# Bach and Cafe Zimmerman



## Guest (Oct 5, 2014)

I have listened to the Bach recordings of cafe zimmerman and in short I did not liked it.Everything is in such a high tempo that to my taste, it kills the poetry so to speak.I have a Bach cantate with the same ensemble conducted by Gustav Leonhardt and that is beautiful and the music is able to express itself.I am used to the old recordings with Leonhardt and I still enjoy these readings very much.Technical is the Zimmerman very much superiour ,skillful , but it gives me no joy. So it seemes that everything is there but it leaves me untouched and disturbed.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Well, tastes vary! The Cafe Zimmerman recordings of the Bach concertos are high up on my favorites list. Never bothered to figure out why...


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## Guest (Oct 5, 2014)

Well this is more of my taste.



 Jordi Savall


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## Esterhazy (Oct 4, 2014)

I enjoy their harpsichord concerto recordings.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I experienced a similar problem with a HIP version of the Pachabel Canon, which is much too fast:










 
I much prefer this version:


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

traverso said:


> I have listened to the Bach recordings of cafe zimmerman and in short I did not liked it.Everything is in such a high tempo that to my taste, it kills the poetry so to speak.I have a Bach cantate with the same ensemble conducted by Gustav Leonhardt and that is beautiful and the music is able to express itself.I am used to the old recordings with Leonhardt and I still enjoy these readings very much.Technical is the Zimmerman very much superiour ,skillful , but it gives me no joy. So it seemes that everything is there but it leaves me untouched and disturbed.
> View attachment 52666


But you're right. Although I don't complain about Café Zimmerman as much as some other Bach concerto recordings, they're not as good as Leonhardt's old set, or indeed half a dozen others I could name. They are exciting because they're fast though. Frisch is pretty good on the harpsichord.

I wonder if Ken's heard Leonhardt play the Brandenburgs.


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## Guest (Oct 5, 2014)

Here is everything I admire In Bach.


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## Guest (Oct 5, 2014)

Musica Antiqua Köln is indeed another example where speed seems everything.It leaves me most of the time with feelings of a straitjacket.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

And here I thought this thread was going to be about the restaurant where Bach used to hang out with friends when he was not busy conceiving music or children...


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2014)

:lol:The real reason is the (in my view) almost mechanical way of playing wich kills the music.Its clean and anti septic.Cafe Zimmerman is only the example.I realy love baroque music but cannot enjoy this way of playing.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

The issue here is the Tempo. Many HIP groups perform at tempos that are uncomfortably fast and do not give the music a chance to breathe. I never felt that way about the first generation of HIP performers, such as Leonhardt.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

I often try to listen to the lean, mean, low-fat, high-caffeine performers. I really do. But it always backfires and I come back to the schnitzel, lard, marzipan, sahne and doppelbock-types of performers.


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2014)

Triplets said:


> The issue here is the Tempo. Many HIP groups perform at tempos that are uncomfortably fast and do not give the music a chance to breathe. I never felt that way about the first generation of HIP performers, such as Leonhardt.


Indeed,the tempo is crucial.I am considering to buy the cantatas with Harnoncourt and leonhardt.Listen to this and you know why.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

traverso said:


> Indeed,the tempo is crucial.I am considering to buy the cantatas with Harnoncourt and leonhardt.Listen to this and you know why.


I very much appreciate those cantatas, especially Harnoncourt's contribution, but you have to be prepared to forgive less than perfect singing, especially from the boys. Having said that I am sure you will find the set a source of constant inspiration.

Leonhardt's Brandenburg 5 is a major masterpiece. What I love most is the way you can hear the harpsichord at the very start of the first movement like and angry wasp in a jar, just itching to get free and scare that silly old recorder and violin into submission.

Savall, who you mentioned also, is particularly interesting in the 6th.

But if you're exploring these concertos, I think the recordings with viola da spada are well worth hearing too - Kuijken's latest one. It changes things.


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2014)

Thank you for your kind reply Mandryka:tiphat:.It is hard to explane but in spite of many shortcomings there is much to appreciate in these performances.I have listened to Koopman and Suzuki (some people cal Suzuki tofu Bach) but I think that my choice is with Harnoncourt and Leonhardt.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Mandryka said:


> I wonder if Ken's heard Leonhardt play the Brandenburgs.


Yes, I have a recording of this -- not sure which one as I believe he did several, but it's in stereo -- but my tastes obviously lie elsewhere as I seldom listen to it these days. Obviously, he plays quite well.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

traverso said:


> some people cal Suzuki tofu Bach


In fairness, it's probably only racists who say that.


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## Guest (Oct 19, 2014)

Nereffid said:


> In fairness, it's probably only racists who say that.


I do not think so,it is smooth and polished,I think that is wat it supposed to say.It is a quote and in way I feel that is has a point.For me are race ,nationality and so on only means to divide humanity.When it had a racist ring I would not have it posted here.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

traverso said:


> I do not think so,it is smooth and polished,I think that is wat it supposed to say.It is a quote and in way I feel that is has a point.For me are race ,nationality and so on only means to divide humanity.When it had a racist ring I would not have it posted here.


He's not always so smooth and polished in his solo work, organ and harpsichord. Just try listening to how he plays Clavier Uebung 3 or the 3 part inventions or the French Suites or Buxtehude. And in the vocal music, particularly when he had Mera with him, he's outstanding IMO. I don't think I've heard him play concertos.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Mandryka said:


> He's not always so smooth and polished in his solo work, organ and harpsichord. Just try listening to how he plays Clavier Uebung 3 or the 3 part inventions or the French Suites or Buxtehude.


I'll second the above, especially the Clavier Ubung 3 where Suzuki is very powerful with sharp contours.


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## Guest (Oct 19, 2014)

I shall and will listen to the solo work of Suzuki , that I promise.:guitar:


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2014)

:angel::angelay after Day I am listening to the Bach cantates performed by Harnoncourt and Leonhardt.I have now tree complete sets ,the other sets are Suzuki and Koopman.I feel very rich specially with the oldest wich I have bought recently.It is hard to explain why I do prefer Harnoncourt and Leonhardt.Mandryka gave me the last push and NOT to hesitate.I am very happy because It is so beautiful.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I'm glad you're enjoying the Harnoncourt box.

My latest cantata exploration was with the new recording of BWV 170 from Loraine Hunt Lieberson. I don't think you can get it through the big distribution channels but it's here direct from the publisher

http://winsormusic.org/lhl170/

Wonderful. One very striking thing is in the aria "Wie jammern mich doch die verkehrten Herzen" The balances are more equal between voice and instruments than I recall elsewhere, so you have an impression of dialogue, responsiveness between the singer and the band. More so than with Herreweghe/Scholl I think. The resulting counterpoint is complex and really expressive of the psychology of the poem, a good representation in music of losing confidence. The final line is astonishing - "Ach! diese Schuld ist schwerlich zu verbeten"

I don't think Harnoncourt recorded it. I like Leonhardt/Deller -- Leonhardt's first recording of it.


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2014)

Thank you Sir for your kind answer .I Will now go on listening to the Cantata BWV 63 Christen Atzet Diesen Tag.:angel:
I cannot watch the video sorry!


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