# which composers do velvety orchestration



## kanonathena (Jun 25, 2010)

I'm looking for composers that make ultra smooth, velvety, effortless music, like these:


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

the first one sounds like holy minimalism (but very melodic).

try with the requiem of Duruflè


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

you can try also with Ravel (Daphnis et Chloe if you don't know it yet, listen here for example from 3:51)





or Delius


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## Kopachris (May 31, 2010)

Try some Holst, Tchaikovsky, and Sibelius.


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## kanonathena (Jun 25, 2010)

I wonder if there are composer with a very upbeat, innocent, childish personality? Most composers are way too serious, think deep thoughts, the music often sound contrived, not airy and effortless.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

kanonathena said:


> I wonder if there are composer with a very upbeat, innocent, childish personality? Most composers are way too serious, think deep thoughts, the music often sound contrived, not airy and effortless.


That sounds like Erik Satie. If you like orchestral, listen to Debussy's orchestral version of Gymnopedie No. 1. I think Francis Poulenc would fit also.

For your orchestral taste, try Franz Schreker's Chamber Symphony.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

norman bates said:


> or Delius


If you want to explore Delius, I'd suggest you look for works conducted by Sir Thomas Beacham. From what I've heard, nobody sounds as good with Delius as he does.


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

kanonathena said:


> I wonder if there are composer with a very upbeat, innocent, childish personality? Most composers are way too serious, think deep thoughts, the music often sound contrived, not airy and effortless.


Try everything from the Classical era.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

regressivetransphobe said:


> Try everything from the Classical era.


Or even better, the pre-classical rococo music where light, breezy, and effortless sounding music was an obsession.


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## Kopachris (May 31, 2010)

kanonathena said:


> I wonder if there are composer with a very upbeat, innocent, childish personality? Most composers are way too serious, think deep thoughts, the music often sound contrived, not airy and effortless.


Have you seen the movie _Amadeus_?


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## kanonathena (Jun 25, 2010)

Thanks for the suggestions. Another thing that grabs me is the serenity of these music, the peacefulness, very nurturing, a common trait of new age music. The classical era doesn't have the dense harmony, they sound light but not nurturing.

I want music that lacks personality (but with full harmonic sound), the beauty is not what the music try to achieve but the music itself.

What are the contemporary composers with an interest in spirituality?

The only composer I found that matches is Mozart, the music is pure light, sometimes piercing, too bad the harmony is not velvety enough for me, and most music Yoko Kanno compose are not for orchestra.

I guess the problem here is post classical period music grow more complex and have difficulty streamline and maintain the simplistic beauty of the classical era. One solution atonal music, if I treat them like tonal music which most untrained ears will do, the difficulty of reconciling the distractions in complex tonal music will disappear.

I found this piece very pleasing


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## kanonathena (Jun 25, 2010)

Kopachris said:


> Have you seen the movie _Amadeus_?


No, what about the music?


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## Kopachris (May 31, 2010)

kanonathena said:


> No, what about the music?


Oh, were you not distinguishing the composer from the music? I was bringing it up as an example of a composer with the personality you described (Mozart), but you later mentioned that Mozart's harmony isn't velvety enough.


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## kanonathena (Jun 25, 2010)

Kopachris said:


> Oh, were you not distinguishing the composer from the music? I was bringing it up as an example of a composer with the personality you described (Mozart), but you later mentioned that Mozart's harmony isn't velvety enough.


Yea, Mozart is the only close match now, I just hope his music is teensy bit more fluffy. This additional fluffiness can be achieved if his music is more feminine or Mozart is a female.


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## Igneous01 (Jan 27, 2011)

Alkan, funeral march on the death of a parrot.






And his festin d'esope

Complex, but very funny almost sinister pieces.

"WHOS A PRETTY POLY?"


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## Kopachris (May 31, 2010)

Igneous01 said:


> "WHOS A PRETTY POLY?"


inb4 vampire pig


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

Basically, there's always going to be a disparity in sound when you're using modern soundtrack music as a reference for classical music. Not put put you off from searching, but be sure to appreciate something for what it is.


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## TrazomGangflow (Sep 9, 2011)

Try Satie's Gymnopedie no. 1


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## Llyranor (Dec 20, 2010)

Igneous01 said:


> Alkan, funeral march on the death of a parrot.


 This might be my favorite music title ever.


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## kanonathena (Jun 25, 2010)

Tried Satie's Gymnopedie no. 1, sounds like from Secret Garden. The music is very thick, not transparent like crystal at all.

The music I'm searching for must come from someone with a naive personality. One might think this personality is common among the music prodigies, so far only Mozart and Bartok fit the bill so far, in their music I see countless facets of crystal.

Any contemporary composer that focus on new age/spirituality? I will try Carter and Rautavaara, these two seems happy. PS: I enjoyed Tan Dun's Water Passion.

Electronic music produce the acoustic crispness I was describing more easily.






I just realize I am looking for transparency, velvety is only one aspect. This requires lays, intricacy and precision of execution.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

I think Rachmaninov's orchestration is pretty velvety...especially on PC 2 & 3.


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## Dodecaplex (Oct 14, 2011)

Edit: ignore this.


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## hespdelk (Mar 19, 2011)

kanonathena said:


> Tried Satie's Gymnopedie no. 1, sounds like from Secret Garden. The music is very thick, not transparent like crystal at all.
> 
> The music I'm searching for must come from someone with a naive personality. One might think this personality is common among the music prodigies, so far only Mozart and Bartok fit the bill so far, in their music I see countless facets of crystal.
> 
> Any contemporary composer that focus on new age/spirituality? I will try Carter and Rautavaara, these two seems happy.


Perhaps composers of the so called "holy minimalist" group?

A few things you can easily search on youtube (and elsewhere):

Arvo Part - Fratres
Gorecki - Symphony n.3 (though this is hardly happy music...)
Peteris Vasks - violin concerto


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

kanonathena said:


> Tried Satie's Gymnopedie no. 1, sounds like from Secret Garden. The music is very thick, not transparent like crystal at all.
> 
> The music I'm searching for must come from someone with a naive personality. One might think this personality is common among the music prodigies, so far only Mozart and Bartok fit the bill so far, in their music I see countless facets of crystal.
> 
> ...


it's probably the most confusing request i've ever seen on a board :lol:

velvety orchestration, transparency (what does it means?), naive personality, yoko kanno, bartok (childish personality?!), amon tobin (velvety orchestration?!!!)
You have probably an idea but it's incredibly difficult to understand what you mean. 
Anyway, before Bartok and Amon Tobin i was thinking that you may be interested by some light music, like Robert Farnon for example.

Or something like this:


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## kanonathena (Jun 25, 2010)

I know I know. Each person like music from many different genres but these music all share a something common, a common personality traits. Unfortunately, to make music learnable like science, academics categorize music based on technical analysis. Even though the technical construction of music may correspond to the soul of the music, it can be very frustrating for one to look for the type of music he/she likes, simply because people appropriate music using their right brain, but music is categorized based on left brain function.

The only composer that fit the bill for the purpose of this thread is really only Yoko Kano. I don't like to compare her to film composer because her orchestration is very very different and the music has a peacefulness and transparency to it that is very unique. I think this is because her personality is very unique and the fact she is Japanese, so there is a pentatonic sound to her music.....And yes, Bartok is very very Childish.

More velvety music ...I think First love Final love uses tunes from John Williams but the orchestration add such a vastness to it ...





















Anyway, I have come across many composers I like, Bartok, Debussy, Yoko Kanno, Mozart ... My taste is broadening and shifting, recently I found myself gravitating towards Yoko Kanno, velvety, transparent, peaceful, effortless, totally lacks personality. Mozart is also effortless, he is like the male, full of energy; Yoko Kanno is the female counterpart, there is something very nurturing and encompassing in her music.

Brahms actually has both the drive and the harmony in his music but his romantic style mask the crystal structure in the music.

I will keep exploring minimalism and other composers, hopefully I can found the music that fit my taste or the other way around. (BTW: V-Disc..blah blah.. has almost the exactly the opposite music personality I like, so musculian and intrusive)


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

kanonathena said:


> BTW: V-Disc..blah blah.. has almost the exactly the opposite music personality I like, so musculian and intrusive)




and i'd add:



it's a piece called "kindergarten flower pageant"! And it's from a composer who is know for music that is charming and often described as feminine and who composed a lot of music for children! And Bartok, the author of violent music like "the miraculous mandarin" instead is velvety and childish? Are you kidding me right? :lol:


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Although I haven't posted on this thread up until now I think I mistook the intention of the original question while reading the posts - I was assuming the inquirer was asking for music that was unashamedly lush, melodic and relatively digestible without too high a twee quotient. If so, then the first composer that came to mind was Erich Korngold.


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## Igneous01 (Jan 27, 2011)

I honestly know of no such composers in the classical world (or even the avant garde/contemporary) that have the kind of sound and picture your after. If alkan doesnt come off as that, than no one can.

Maybe listen to some sorabji organ symphony for 12 hours and have a think about it.


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## Conor71 (Feb 19, 2009)

I think the OP would enjoy some Rautavaara, Hovhaness and Sibelius - check them out!


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## kanonathena (Jun 25, 2010)

Norman:

Bartok's music isn't childish but has the innocence and purity of a child, the 4th movement of CFO where he mocks Shostakovich is as childish as music can go, it is so intentional, playful, curious only a very naughty child can do this. Bartok has a extremely childish personality according to his biography. 

Conor71:

Thanks, I have been think about Sibelius for some time, after all he had a thing for Bartok. His orchestration style also sound similar to Yoko Kanno.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

kanonathena said:


> Norman:
> 
> Bartok's music isn't childish but has the innocence and purity of a child, the 4th movement of CFO where he mocks Shostakovich is as childish as music can go, it is so intentional, playful, curious only a very naughty child can do this. Bartok has a extremely childish personality according to his biography.


i really don't want to sound rude, but even if he had a childish personality there's nothing velvety in his music for sure. And i can't really understand your comment about the video with the two Alec Wilder pieces, to me it make sense like "i don't know, Haydn is too much dissonant for my tastes, i'd like to find something more melodic and sweet like Milton Babbitt)


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

I don't know whats going on!!


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Didn't Bobby Vinton do a song about velvet?


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## kanonathena (Jun 25, 2010)

norman bates said:


> i really don't want to sound rude, but even if he had a childish personality there's nothing velvety in his music for sure. And i can't really understand your comment about the video with the two Alec Wilder pieces, to me it make sense like "i don't know, Haydn is too much dissonant for my tastes, i'd like to find something more melodic and sweet like Milton Babbitt)


Oh, I definitely won't call Bartok velvety, I mentioned him to illustrate transparency, you know his crisp, crystal like sound. However, I think his music maintain a child-like innocence and earnestness. I'm really sorry that I confused you or makes you feel like I'm playing devil's advocate.

What I am really looking for is transparency and feminine. To me transparency means you see crystal structure in the music (if you have any idea what I mean).

My understanding of feminine most likely will be very different from yours. If a composer is feminine in nature, he/she can only compose feminine music and visa versa. Whether a composer is masculine or feminine in his/her personality is pretty much fixed. There is incredible nuance in the how masculine or feminine a composer (or people in general) is since we all have two aspects, but since it is very rare to see two aspects in perfect balance in a person, so one must take dominance over another. For example, I see John Williams as masculine dominant, all his music no matter how subtle or heartbreaking will be masculine dominant, Paderewski is feminine dominant, no matter how violet his music sounds, it always shows a stronger feminine quality. What I'm saying is that music is the extension of a person, it doesn't matter what music is written, the same personality will be imprinted in the music over and over again.

The second video you posted has light playful music, but it sounds masculine dominant to me. Yoko Kanno is special because her music is actually masculine dominant (only slightly), but because her orchestration technique is rooted in classical era, there is a clear crystal structure in the music, her masculine personality adds a slight warmth and fluffiness to her music. It's like the feather are neatly trimmed and layered, not messed together.

Hopefully things are little bit more clearer, I know my description is lacking and full of loopholes. We sense things differently, and language is a very clumsy tool.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

kanonathena said:


> ...Bartok has a extremely childish personality according to his biography...


I basically agree with that, based on not reading his biography but other sources from other people who knew him.

Of course the reason for this and other aspects of his personality - eg. a kind of detachment - was partly how he had a long series of illnesses during his childhood and for a lot of it he lived a kind of sheltered life, taken care of, maybe doted a bit on, by his mother.

But I think that the "joke" on Shostakovich's _Leningrad _symphony in the_ Concerto for Orchestra _was probably more to do with Bartok's innate dislike of the Russians. Eg. as a Hungarian, he had seen, like his generation generally, the Russians invade Hungary before, eg. after the First World War. The Hungarians do not like Russians, and they like Soviet imperialism even less, it's a bit like the Irish with the English or the Koreans with the Japanese...


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Sid James said:


> But I think that the "joke" on Shostakovich's _Leningrad _symphony in the_ Concerto for Orchestra _was probably more to do with Bartok's innate dislike of the Russians. Eg. as a Hungarian, he had seen, like his generation generally, the Russians invade Hungary before, eg. after the First World War. The Hungarians do not like Russians, and they like Soviet imperialism even less, it's a bit like the Irish with the English or the Koreans with the Japanese...


It's really pretty sad that the world was in such a state at that time. I wonder what Bartok or Shostakovich's music would have sounded like if they could more freely be influenced by each other without worrying about political unrest/differences or just being sheltered from the rest of the world by your country (in the case of Shostakovich).


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## kanonathena (Jun 25, 2010)

Sid James said:


> Of course the reason for this and other aspects of his personality - eg. a kind of detachment - was partly how he had a long series of illnesses during his childhood and for a lot of it he lived a kind of sheltered life, taken care of, maybe doted a bit on, by his mother.


That could explain why he isolated himself from others, but again some people are born very shy and child like, his rash exacerbated the problem.

I tend to think he mocked Shostakovich strictly because he thought the tune is banal. This fits his personality. Note that Bartok seldom judge people, he has defended many of his contemporaries but not himself. I don't think he mocked Shostakovich just because he is Russian. Here are some facts about Bartok:

- As a child he used to hide from strangers.
- He has severe rash up to 5 but kids respected him because his earnestness 
- He was very attached to his mother, devastated when she died (he died 5 years later)
- He act child like in front of woman (of the kind he likes I guess).
- He is attracted to cheerful teenage girls, he married his first wife (age 15) when he was 25, second wife (20) when he was 40.
- He was emotionally vulnerable, heartbroken when a girl turned him down, very ashamed when a guy said he was short (Bartok was only 1.65m)
- He was sincere and considerate, his first wife persuaded him to divorce her and merry his second wife. From this it can be seen she knew Bartok wouldn't bring it on on his own. Afterwards Bartok expressed his concern on his first wife's future, something like ... I will do fine, it is her that...
- His second wife recalled that Bartok's sense of humor is childish and he made jokes only in a family environment (when nobody is around) 
- His second wife said people don't understand Bartok, he was completely different person within the family.
- Bartok is extremely ethical, if he thought he was overpaid he would give money back. He loath taking money he did not earn.
- He was a very patient teacher, "unlimited patience" 
- His favorite food is plain white rice.
- He doesn't care what he will be eating as long as the food is prepared cleanly.
- His most fond memory was those spent with the village people.
- He is very humble and not interested in publicity. 
- "My true guiding principle...which I have been fully aware of ever since I have come upon myself as a composer: the ideal of the brotherhood of peoples, brotherhood created despite war and all conflict. It is this ideal which I work with all my power to serve through my music; this is why I do not avoid any influence, be it from Slovak, Rumanian, Arabic or any other source. The only thing that matters is that the source be pure, fresh and healthy!" See? He has a big heart, no way he mocked Shostakovich because the guy is a Russian.
- and take a look at his photo, the expression is serious and all but he totally looks like a kid!

There you go, a wonderful person. It might be a good idea to read about the lives of the composers to appreciate the music from their perspective.

I tried some Scandnavian composers including Sibelius, their music is so clean like ice, love it.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

^^Yes, you obviously know it in more depth than I, kanonathena. Thank you for your detailed response, I enjoyed reading it.

I won't derail this thread any longer. I was drawing conclusions based on history generally rather than what Bartok though. The history between Hungary and Russia/USSR was not good, though. I feel that the march (yes, very banal) in the _Leningrad_ symphony, imaging the soldiers of USSR marching across Europe "liberating" it, has sinister overtones with hindsight, given that it led to the Iron Curtain and the oppression of East Europe for almost half a century. So I was arguing with a fair degree of inference, I must admit...


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

kanonathena said:


> The second video you posted has light playful music, but it sounds masculine dominant to me.


i think that maybe you've listened in a superficial way. Wilder was the exact opposite of that not only in music but also in real life (and he strongly disliked what you called "masculine dominant" music). But anyway, i didn't want to be polemical, it's only that your opinion are really surprising to me and it's clear that probably you will find other suggestions more useful than mine, good luck


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## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

Go to Youtube, look up THE THIN RED LINE by Hans Zimmer - several of the long tracks from his Suite arranged from the movie music sound like what you're describing - Journey to the Line, Light, and others. You'll enjoy the music even if it's not what you're looking for (if you haven't heard it or own it already), that is


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## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

I agree about certain movements of Bartok - his slow movements are often called 'Night Music' and can sound lush with a few chirps and trills from insects (good insects 

But, of all mentioned, I think the first of the Trois Gymnopedie of Satie is the most serene.


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