# My Thoery, Machaut is the end of ars nova & start of ars subtilior, connect the dot?



## deprofundis (Apr 25, 2014)

*My Thoery, Machaut is the end of ars nova & start of ars subtilior, connect the dot?*

See we all know Philip de vitry put an end to ars vetus era, whit his treaty of ars nova(1294\1297?, than time past Guillaume de Machaut appears and his ars nova supreme end tend toward new era ars subtilior Pytho le merveilleus serpent i.e the complexity of his later works show he enclined toward ars subttilior , probably know Solage & patron Duke of Berry.

Listen to the excellent Dart of Love on hyperion record see for yourself , seem to me like ars subtilior* toss in this works other machaut's works could also been attributed to this foggy affored mention era.*

*
What do you think hmm?, are my statements accurate, does it hold ground *:tiphat:


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

De toutes flours also seems to be an early ars subtilior song, I suppose Machaut is a transitional composer. There's a lovely performance of it here


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## deprofundis (Apr 25, 2014)

Mandryka said:


> De toutes flours also seems to be an early ars subtilior song, I suppose Machaut is a transitional composer. There's a lovely performance of it here
> 
> View attachment 108632


Je viiiens de l'acheter monsieur c'est divin comme album=transslation godlike wwork album i just bought it,it's deffenetaly has work of Machaut that fall in ars subtilior catogery, the dawnn before renaissance the 14 century.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

deprofundis said:


> See we all know Philip de vitry put an end to ars vetus era, whit his treaty of ars nova(1294\1297?, than time past Guillaume de Machaut appears and his ars nova supreme end tend toward new era ars subtilior Pytho le merveilleus serpent i.e the complexity of his later works show he enclined toward ars subttilior , probably know Solage & patron Duke of Berry.
> 
> Listen to the excellent Dart of Love on hyperion record see for yourself , seem to me like ars subtilior* toss in this works other machaut's works could also been attributed to this foggy affored mention era.*
> 
> What do you think hmm?, are my statements accurate, does it hold ground :tiphat:


Thanks for the recommendation.

I do feel that medieval music scholarship is a very difficult and complex sphere, as we can only speculate as to what manuscripts have been lost - so even if I had a thorough knowledge of what does survive, I would still be wary of generalisations.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Ingélou said:


> Thanks for the recommendation.
> 
> I do feel that medieval music scholarship is a very difficult and complex sphere,


Yes but it all early music is problematic, even music from the 18th century. Music scholars have still to reach an agreement on how to read a score by J S Bach.


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## deprofundis (Apr 25, 2014)

Ingélou said:


> Thanks for the recommendation.
> 
> I do feel that medieval music scholarship is a very difficult and complex sphere, as we can only speculate as to what manuscripts have been lost - so even if I had a thorough knowledge of what does survive, I would still be wary of generalisations.


Your welcome you like my mandatory listening all the pleasure is mine, may you find impressive music here :tiphat:


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Ingélou said:


> Thanks for the recommendation.
> 
> I do feel that medieval music scholarship is a very difficult and complex sphere,


Michael Morrow, I think it was him, once said that the only thing we really know about Medieval music is that it did _not _sound like Dietrich Fischer Dieskau.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Mandryka said:


> *Yes but* *all early music is problematic, even music from the 18th century. *Music scholars have still to reach an agreement on how to read a score by J S Bach.


True, but where did I say that it wasn't? 

Medieval music scholarship is 'even more problematic', then. 
Because at least there are plenty of scores by J. S. Bach to go on, and there was a printing press...


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Ingélou said:


> True, but where did I say that it wasn't?
> 
> Medieval music scholarship is 'even more problematic', then.
> Because at least there are plenty of scores by J. S. Bach to go on, and there was a printing press...


In fact a very small proportion of Bach's music exists in manuscripts which he wrote himself, and a very small proportion of Bach's music was printed with his supervision.

But the problems aren't solely about getting a copy of his score, once you have a reliable score there are massive issues to deal with about what on earth it means in terms of sound.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

On the other hand we have a lot of confidence about Machaut's music because he collected it all together, the same maybe (I've not checked this) for Hildegard.

Of course what these things mean in terms of sound is no less problematic than for J S Bach!


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Mandryka said:


> In fact a very small proportion of Bach's music exists in manuscripts which he wrote himself, and a very small proportion of Bach's music was printed with his supervision.
> 
> But the problems aren't solely about getting a copy of his score, once you have a reliable score there are massive issues to deal with about what on earth it means in terms of sound.


Excuse me - I think this thread is about *medieval music*.

My original reply was about *medieval music* and I said nothing about Bach scholarship because it wasn't relevant. You appear to have taken this silence to be some sort of statement. It wasn't.

In my second post, I pointed out (but only in answer to *your* post) that *medieval music scholarship *is harder than Bach scholarship because in medieval music it's hit and miss what's survived, among other things.

I did not talk about Bach's *autograph* manuscripts per se and 'plenty' was a relative term, in comparison with *the survival of medieval manuscripts*.

My observation about the printing press was not about Bach in particular, but simply to say that once you have printing, a lot more music and literature survives.

I have nothing more to say on the difficulties of musicology, because I have said all I want to say that's relevant to *medieval music* - the subject of this thread.

If you wish to start a thread on 'the difficulties facing Bach scholars', I shall read it with interest. :tiphat:


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Ingélou said:


> Excuse me - I think this thread is about *medieval music*.
> 
> My original reply was about *medieval music* and I said nothing about Bach scholarship because it wasn't relevant. You appear to have taken this silence to be some sort of statement. It wasn't.
> 
> ...


Maybe the point which I think is most important is that it would be wrong to think that C18 music is well understood and earlier music isn't. I suspect that that's the sort of attitude which leads to totally inappropriate readings of Bach, Scarlatti and others, and indeed which lead to some very inappropriate recordings of Josquin certainly and Machaut possibly in the LP era.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Mandryka said:


> Maybe the point which I think is most important is that *it would be wrong to think that C18 music is well understood and earlier music isn'*t. I suspect that *that's the sort of attitude* which leads to totally inappropriate readings of Bach, Scarlatti and others, and indeed which lead to some very inappropriate recordings of Josquin certainly and Machaut possibly in the LP era.


But this 'point' was plucked out of the air. 
It was *not* implicit in my post.

I agree that eighteenth-century music scholarship isn't easy either - but what does that have to do with Machaut? 

*The point that I think is most important* is that you responded to my initial post as if I had said that Bach scholarship was easy.

*No - I didn't. *
I didn't mention Bach scholarship because it wasn't relevant. 
I didn't even think of it.

Imagine my surprise, then, when you use a quotation from my post as if I had said something that I just didn't say.

Further, you are now making generalisations about attitudes to eighteenth century music that have *nothing to do with me* and that in fact *I don't hold* - and you are doing it in association with a quotation of my post in which I explicitly state that I am not talking about this subject.

*Please*, if you do feel the need to make generalisations about approaches to eighteenth century music on a medieval music thread, then :tiphat: *leave me out of it. 
*


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Oh dear! 

..........


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Mandryka said:


> Oh dear!
> 
> ..........


Well - *quite*!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

:tiphat: I do hope that someone will respond to the *OP's question* about whether he's right to think that Machaut is the start of something new in *medieval* music.


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## Josquin13 (Nov 7, 2017)

Machaut is represented in both the Ivrea Codex (Ars Nova), which doesn't include any Ars Subtilior works (if memory serves), and the Chantilly Codex, which represents the heart of the Ars Subtilior movement. So I agree, it makes sense to view Machaut as a bridge between the two eras. Indeed, it looks like he was already thought of in that way by the compilers of the two codices, to have included his works in both. Machaut also gets credited for the first full mass cycle composed by a single person--Messe de Notre Dame--around 1360. (Though the Tournai Mass is earlier, it wasn't written by a single composer.)

But his music is unique! I enjoy how the singers of Liber unUsualis relish in Machaut's penchant for flowing from dissonance to consonance--such as in the motet "Felix Virgo/Inviolata Genitrix/Ad Te Suspriamus", which is one of Machaut's finest I think: 



. (By the way, the full Liber unUsualis CD can be listened to on You Tube: 



)

Philip De Vitry, who was earlier than Machaut, but was also hugely influential on music for the next 100 years. He too is represented in the Ivrea codex (but not, I believe, in the Chantilly Codex). Like Machaut, De Vitry was a seminal composer--a major influence on later motet composers. He is credited with having invented the isorhythm. The early Orlando Consort recording of his motets is a great favorite of mine (entitled "Philippe de Vitry and the Ars Nova"): 




I love that the composers in the codices wished to remain anonymous, like the builders of the great Gothic cathedrals. (We can only identify their works through correspondences to the codices.) What a contrast to today's culture. Though as Mandryka points out, Machaut did compile all of his music late in life, in 6 volumes (& thank goodness for that). He was the only composer of the 14th century to do so, well, virtually.

The later Franco Flemish composer Johannes Ciconia, who spent most of his life in Italy, is another important bridge to the early Renaissance. To my mind, Ciconia defines the Ars Subtilior era. I've enjoyed the recordings by La Morra and Diabolus in Musica of his complete works:

https://www.amazon.com/Ciconia-Comp...d=1538683457&sr=1-1&keywords=ciconia+la+morra

Yet perhaps the biggest influence on the later Burgundian composers--Guillaume Dufay and Gilles Binchois--was the English composer, mathematician, astronomer, astrologer, John Dunstable: who was apparently writing complex motets before Dufay. Dunstable's "Veni Sancte Spiritus" is one of my favorite motets: 



. All of these names are giants in music history, to me, and I hope to others too.

As for Machaut recordings, it's good to see Liber unUsualis's superb CD get mentioned. It's a favorite of mine too (I was just recommending it on another thread a couple of days ago).

Other favorite Machaut recordings of mine have included the following:

1. The Clerks Group, Edward Wickham:"Guillaume Machaut: Motets & Music from the Ivrea Codex": This is one of the finest recordings Wickham & The Clerks have made to date, IMO (& it's a desert island disc of mine):https://www.amazon.com/Motets-Music...1-2&keywords=clerks+group+ivrea+codex+machaut

(2) Ensemble Musica Nova--their excellent AEON series (4 discs)--the complete motets (2), ballades (1), & Messe de Notre Dame (1): https://www.amazon.com/Machaut-mote...catcorr&keywords=ensemble+musica+nova+machaut

(3) Ensemble Gilles Binchois--their 3 CD Brilliant box set of "Sacred & Secular music": Messe de Notre Dame, & rarely recorded "Jugement du Roi de Navarre" and "Vray remède d'amour"--drawn from recordings originally released on the Cantus label (I see it's still the best bargain buy of Machaut's music in the catalogue): https://www.amazon.com/Machaut-Sacr...1&keywords=ensemble+gilles+binchois+brilliant

(4) Hilliard Ensemble--Messe de Notre Dame: https://www.amazon.com/Machaut-Mess...-1&keywords=Hilliard+ensemble+notre+dame+mass

(5) Studio der frühen Musik--Chansons (in two volumes): about 10 to 15 years ago, these were re-released on CD via two EMI Reflexe box sets, of which I can only find Volume 1, which included "Machaut Chansons 1": https://www.amazon.com/Reflexe-Stat...681050&sr=8-52&keywords=thomas+binkley+studio. Here are links to the individual EMI Reflexe CDs, now OOP & pricey, regrettably (isn't it about time for a comprehensive Thomas Binckley box set?):

https://www.amazon.com/Guillaume-Ma...680971&sr=8-34&keywords=thomas+binkley+studio
https://www.amazon.com/Machaut-Chan...681050&sr=8-51&keywords=thomas+binkley+studio
https://www.amazon.com/Guillaume-Ma...680839&sr=8-32&keywords=thomas+binkley+studio

(6) Medieval Ensemble of London--2 polyphonic Lais: https://www.amazon.com/2-Polyphonic...&keywords=medieval+ensemble+of+london+machaut

(7) Orlando Consort--"Machaut Songs from Le Voir Dit": as part of their ongoing project to record the complete works of Machaut for Hyperion--so far, they've released "Sovereign Beauty", "Fortune's Child", "A Burning Heart", and "Dart of Love", and this: https://www.amazon.com/Machaut-Song...538681402&sr=8-1&keywords=Machaut+orlando+dit. I haven't really followed the rest of the Orlando's series otherwise. I mention this disc because where else are you going to find a recording of the complete Le Voir Dit? But I kind of agree with the Amazon reviewer that writes "The verse is about love, but it all sounds remote and pious."


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I want to explore the isorhythmic motet a bit more deeply. I'm interested in how and why the text of each part interacts, and how the music has an effect on the meaning. Can someone recommend a good book in English or French on this?

Bjorn Schmelzer writing on Jean Hanelle says this



> One of the strangest expe- riences for me was to realize that the two texts sung together at the same time are easily and clearly dis- tinguished from each other in the listening process. Although they blur in a certain way, they make space for each other, creating a sort of third, not yet dis- cerned meaning, a meaning to ruminate on... The tropes open up the mean- ing of the original antiphon text, and the experience of the two texts sung at the same time is hallucinato- ry, creating a meaning not yet grasped or under- stood. This is the idea of figurae in the exegetical art of "tropology": they shift the meaning of the words we knew and which are in our memory, now starting to move and to be filled with enargeia so to speak...There are many analogies to make with how contemporary Italian painters like Fra Angelico, influ- enced by Dominican scholastics, made visible the invisible. Georges Didi-Huberman (6) describes how figurae in the paintings of Fra Angelico don't have a figurative meaning, but are figures of the invisible, and in this sense rather disfigurations like marble painting, becoming the figure of the mystery of Incarnation.


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