# Examples of "borrowing" in music



## Francis Poulenc (Nov 6, 2016)

The last movement of Mahler's 3rd Symphony is largely built around themes taken from four pieces:

1. Beethoven String Quartet 16, Lento Assai
2. Wagner's Parsifal
3. Brahms: Feldeinsamkeit
4. Slow movement of the Hans Rott symphony

Another example is of course Wagner's famous borrowing from Berlioz Romeo and Juliet, on which both the Prelude and Liebestod of Tristan are based. Bernstein based the theme of "Somewhere" on Beethoven's Emperor.

Can you name other such instances of borrowing in music?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

And of course you have written proof of all of the above, etched in stone; 100% conclusive of all of these "allegations".

It couldn't simply be that two composers working completely independently came up with the same note patterns purely by coincidence.


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## Francis Poulenc (Nov 6, 2016)

hpowders said:


> And of course you have written proof of all of the above, etched in stone; 100% conclusive of all of these "allegations".
> 
> It couldn't simply be that two composers working completely independently came up with the same note patterns purely by coincidence.


The resemblances are all too great to deny the correlation. It is natural, composers build upon one another. If all mathematicians had to start their research by discovering multiplication, they wouldn't get anywhere.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Francis Poulenc said:


> Another example is of course Wagner's famous borrowing from Berlioz Romeo and Juliet, on which both the Prelude and Liebestod of Tristan are based.


Ah, but listen to Liszt's _Die Lorelei_, composed in 1856, just as Wagner was embarking on _Tristan_






I think Wagner was more likely to have derived direct inspiration from this, than from Berlioz's work.


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## Francis Poulenc (Nov 6, 2016)

^Great find, remarkably similar.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Francis Poulenc said:


> ^Great find, remarkably similar.


Credit to Ken Hamilton, via Tom Service's BBC Radio 3 programme _The Listening Service_.


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## WildThing (Feb 21, 2017)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Ah, but listen to Liszt's _Die Lorelei_, composed in 1856, just as Wagner was embarking on _Tristan_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ah, yes but then listen to Hans von Bulow's Nirwana, which won Wagner's unstinting praise and even provided him with the rising chromatic scale which permeates Tristan (first at around 0:25):






In these examples, and in most cases like this with composers, I think the "borrowings" are usually happening at a subconscious level; I seriously doubt Wagner was sitting down at his composition desk saying "Ah, let me take this little melodic inspiration from Berlioz, and combine it with this idea from Liszt, and in turn add in this phrase from von Bulow and voila its a masterpiece in the making"!!!! These musical fragments were all in the air, part of the cultural atmosphere, and composers were all making use of them. And of course this is true throughout history, from Bach to Beethoven to Wagner to Stravinsky; and even when the "borrowing" is a little more CONSCIOUS (i.e. Handel), what really matters is how the composer transforms the material and makes it their own.


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## arnerich (Aug 19, 2016)

I'm not familiar with Mahler's third but I do know that Mahler uses Beethoven's "Lebewohl" motive extensively in his 9th symphony.


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## Francis Poulenc (Nov 6, 2016)

arnerich said:


> I'm not familiar with Mahler's third but I do know that Mahler uses Beethoven's "Lebewohl" motive extensively in his 9th symphony.


I didn't know that. Can you point me to two similar passages?


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

Lot's of borrowing in baroque.

Händel borrowed a lot from himself and from others.


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## Aurelian (Sep 9, 2011)

The opening theme of Brahms's 1st Piano Concerto is a lot like Mozart's 24th PC.

Shostakovich's 2nd PC quotes Mozart's 21st.

Even if there is no obvious thematic borrowing, there is the question of influence. When Samuel Barber was writing his Adagio for Strings, was he thinking of Mahler's Adagietto and/or Beethoven's 14th String Quartet (1st movement)?


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Schumann used the same descending figure in both Symphony #1, and symphony #3....Brahms uses it as the first subject of his own Symphony #3/I.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

"Quoting" is NOT the same thing as "borrowing".

Both Schubert and Brahms in their Ninth and First symphonies, respectively, quote Beethoven's Ninth Symphony-their way of tipping their hat and paying tribute to Beethoven-they knew their quotes would be recognized and made no attempt to hide it.

Borrowing implies hoping nobody notices that a composer directly influenced one's composition.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Mozart borrowed a theme from a Clementi piano sonata in B flat for the overture to the Magic Flute.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

The signature Cashmere Bouquet jingle from 1950's TV and the Blue Danube waltz.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Also the opening of the Pastoral Symphony and "This Provincial Town" from Beauty and the Beast.


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## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

1 minute mark, 2 minute mark, and 5 minute mark below, sound familiar? Ludwig you thief!


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Beethoven's 9th and 2nd symphonies.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

Wagner borrowed a phrase from a theme in Halévy's _Juive_. Listen to 5'40":





For the Act III _Roméo et Juliet_ finale ("Capulets! Capulets! race immonde!"), Gounod borrowed a passage from Meyerbeer's _Huguenots_ ("Nous voilà! félons, arrière!").

And Berlioz borrowed the part after the record stops from _4'33"_.


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## Norma Skock (Mar 18, 2017)

SimonTemplar said:


> Wagner borrowed a phrase from a theme in Halévy's _Juive_. Listen to 5'40":
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What did Wagner use that theme in?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Francis Poulenc said:


> The last movement of Mahler's 3rd Symphony is largely built around themes taken from four pieces:
> 
> 4. Slow movement of the Hans Rott symphony


Mahler wrote his 3rd symphony between 1893 & 1896 but the only evidence that I have come across of him having studied the Rott score comes from some years later - 1900.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Don't know if it is the same thing but one of the pieces in The 1812 Overture and March Slave by Tchaikovsky are the same.

Also similarities in Prokofiev Symphony No 1 (Classical) and Grieg Holberg Suite.


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## Norma Skock (Mar 18, 2017)

Becca said:


> Mahler wrote his 3rd symphony between 1893 & 1896 but the only evidence that I have come across of him having studied the Rott score comes from some years later - 1900.







9:35 and 18:37 are obviously an inspiration for the final trumpet chorale of Mahler's Third. There is more inspiration for this at 17:33. Also, there is a crystal-clear borrowing at 16:39-16:47.


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## Faustian (Feb 8, 2015)

WildThing said:


> In these examples, and in most cases like this with composers, I think the "borrowings" are usually happening at a subconscious level; I seriously doubt Wagner was sitting down at his composition desk saying "Ah, let me take this little melodic inspiration from Berlioz, and combine it with this idea from Liszt, and in turn add in this phrase from von Bulow and voila its a masterpiece in the making"!!!! These musical fragments were all in the air, part of the cultural atmosphere, and composers were all making use of them. And of course this is true throughout history, from Bach to Beethoven to Wagner to Stravinsky; and even when the "borrowing" is a little more CONSCIOUS (i.e. Handel), what really matters is how the composer transforms the material and makes it their own.


Yeah, I agree. Not to say there aren't instances where a composer who hears an idea from somewhere else is inspired to do something with it themselves. I'm sure there are some of those. However the creative process is mysterious and complicated, and composers listen to each other's music and study each other's scores, so it's not surprising that similar ideas turn up in multiple works, and I think the process is less a borrowing as it is building upon a common language for artistic expression. And as you point out, while we usually only note similarities among the most popular and influential of composers, because these are mostly the ones we listen to nowadays, there were numerous minor figures throughout history who were part of this process as well. Continuing with your Wagner and Hans von Bulow example, I'm sure one could spot as many influences in Wagner's operas from the scores of Marschner, Spontini, or Halévy as from a Liszt or Berlioz.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Mahler's 3rd starts with what is clearly a theme influenced by a theme from Brahms' 1st symphony. The melody contour and rhythm are the same so it's unlikely Mahler did not have it in mind.

Start at 33.30, not sure why YouTube keeps starting this earlier when I tried to share.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)




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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

A phenomenon inherent to music composition: J.S. Bach borrowed from his predecessors and contemporaries, Mozart from his, Beethoven from Mozart, Haydn, and Bach, Mendelssohn from Mozart, Wagner from everyone, everyone from Wagner, Tchaikovsky from Rubinstein and Berlioz, and countless others from countless others.

Haendel famously borrowed 17 times from Telemann in a short amount of time, which Telemann found flattering, especially when Haendel backed it up with a gift of exotic plants.

Telemann's Septet TWV 44:43 is a melodic elaboration of a theme from Bach's Brandenburg Concertos.

Holst likely borrowed the menacing chromatic bass string runs in his 'Mars' from Saint-Saens' Dance Macabre, and Saint-Saens might or might not have borrowed them from Wagner's Flying Dutchman. Wagner in turn might have borrowed that from Mendelssohn.

Holst also followed Stravinsky's ballets quite closely sometimes.

Students borrowed from their masters: Eberl from Mozart, Ries from Beethoven, Fucik from Dvorak...

Dvorak's famous string opening of the 4th movement of the 9th symphony is possibly a borrowing from a Rossini opera.

Once you know enough instances of this, it becomes merely a question of how well does a composer rework / improve the influence.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Fabulin said:


> *Once you know enough instances of this, it becomes merely a question of how well does a composer rework / improve the influence.*


...the accusations are coming Fabulin, you know they are only a post or two away now.... I'll keep quiet but your line above is gonna be the best defence.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

mikeh375 said:


> ...the accusations are coming Fabulin, you know they are only a post or two away now.... I'll keep quiet but your line above is gonna be the best defence.


I don't think I will need to say much after I have given these examples.

I will just add four more:

Haydn's hit tune Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser is audibly indebted to a Serbian tune Haydn was likely to have been familiar with.

Beethoven's 9th symphony is full of textbook baroque d minor fugue-ing, and then on the Mozart's side contains a Turkish march and a big "Joy" theme based on. Things that both snobs and casuals are amazed by are actually heavily from the bag of the past composers, with Beethoven applying great compositional skill in reworking those in a highly effective, melodic fashion.

Tchaikovsky reworked a melody from the most popular operetta in Russia at the time, "La Belle Helene" by Offenbach into verbatim the final sentence of his famous Sleeping Beauty waltz. He also expanded on Chopin's tunes, folk music, and more in his compositions.

Shostakovich, when he reworked tunes by Offenbach and others for his parody operetta Cheryomushki. Even his famous waltz from the first echelon (written for a film about a colony in the far Siberia) is based on the famous melancholic waltz "On the Hills of Manchuria" from 1906.

These exploits have their patron saint, and his name is Johnny Towner Williams.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

beetzart said:


> Mozart borrowed a theme from a Clementi piano sonata in B flat for the overture to the Magic Flute.


I can't remember where I read this: But my understanding is that the theme was given to both Clementi and Mozart when they competed publicly. What we have from Clementi is apparently what he improvised. Mozart didn't write down what he himself improvised, unless the Magic Flute gives a little hint?


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

I could swear Mozart used this theme (the opening of JC Bach's piano concerto), almost note for note, but I'm blanking out where...


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## Ravn (Jan 6, 2020)

The obvious examples are of course Berio’s «Rendering» and the third movement of «Sinfonia».:devil:


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

At the 2:49 mark, isn't Beethoven borrowing this theme from Mozart?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

vtpoet said:


> I can't remember where I read this: But my understanding is that the theme was given to both Clementi and Mozart when they competed publicly. What we have from Clementi is apparently what he improvised. Mozart didn't write down what he himself improvised, unless the Magic Flute gives a little hint?


The ending of the magic flute overture also resembles the ending of Beethoven's Eroica symphony III. scherzo. But this sort of simple "borrowings of themes" happened very often between composers at the time and doesn't strike me as remarkable. There has to be something more than just "borrowing of themes" to be interesting, to me.
For example that Die zauberflote overture theme sounds like a typical classical-era phrase to me, - found Mozart's earlier works like Vesperae K.339 (written one year before Clementi wrote his B flat sonata). I'm more intrigued by connections of overall style, layout and design (like the Mozart/Wagner example I posted previously).
Here's an example I find "interesting":

*[ 4:09 ]
[ 5:07 ]
[ 7:24 ]*





View attachment 138134

View attachment 138135

View attachment 138136


*[ 1:49 ]
[ 5:38 ]*





View attachment 138137

View attachment 138138


-use of chromatic half-step "slow march" as introduction for allegro/fugue 
-use of three-note fragments for fugal development
-use of motivic trills to create ominous mood
-use of three-note motifs ending in leading tone in minor

"The traditional Baroque idiom that is developed in this fugue for two pianos lays great stress on dissonant chromatic semitones and appoggiaturas. The intensity of the fugal writing is startling, foreshadowing the fugal textures in some of Beethoven's later works, such as the first movement of the Piano Sonata in C Minor, op.111, which exploits a variant of the same idiom. Beethoven was so taken by this piece, in fact, that he copied out the entire fugue in score." 
< Mozart's Piano Music, By William Kinderman, Page 46 >


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

C.P.E. Bach - Symphony In F Major Wq. 183/3
Mozart - Symphony No. 40 In G Minor K 550

C.Ph.E. Bach Concerto For Harpsichord & Fortepiano in E flat major, WQ47
Mozart: String Quartet No.19 In C, K.465 - "Dissonance" - 4. Allegro molto

Mozart: Fortepiano Concerto No.24 in C Minor, KV 491: I. Allegro
Brahms: Piano Concerto No.1 In D Minor, Op.15 - 1. Maestoso - Poco più moderato

Mozart: Fortepiano Concerto No.27 in B Flat Major, KV 595: III. Allegro
Brahms: Piano Concerto No. 2 in B-Flat Major, Op. 83 - 4. Allegretto grazioso - Un poco più presto


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

In the finale of his Octet for strings, Mendelssohn quotes "And he shall reign" from the Hallelujah chorus of Messiah.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Gordontrek said:


> Ludwig you thief!











"The music collection of the Salzburg cathedral contains more sacred vocal music of the mid-18th century (ca. 1730-80) than any other period. An inventory of this large collection, recently undertaken by this writer at the request of Domkapellmeister Prof. Josef Messner, shows that Mozart's predecessors and colleagues in the archbishop's service are represented by an imposing amount of liturgical music. Among these musicians none seems to have been more industrious than *Johann Ernst Eberlin* (1702-62). There is evidence in the number of works preserved: a thematic catalog contains, so far, approximately 70 Masses, Mass fragments and Requiems, 160 motets and other smaller works, 37 litanies, 14 sequences and hymns, 35 settings of individual or grouped vesper psalms, and 3 Te Deum. This list does not include the large amount of sacred music in the vernacular. Aside from such first-hand evidence there is the well-known testimony of Eberlin's younger colleague, Leopold Mozart. In his report on the Salzburg musical establishment in 1757, the older Mozart singled out Eberlin for his industry and speed in composing, comparing him to Alessandro Scarlatti and Telemann. At the time of Leopold Mozart's writing Eberlin had risen, from the position of fourth organist in 1725, to the highest rank of Hof-und Domkapellmeister (1749) and had recently been granted the added honorary appointment of Titular-Truchsess.
Both Leopold and his son thought highly of Eberlin's ability; from their testimony and from other evidence it appears that Eberlin's reputation was primarily based on his contrapuntal works. Wolfgang Mozart's remarks are significant: while eventually he modified his high opinion of Eberlin's keyboard works (the only works to be published during the composer's lifetime) he continued to esteem his vocal writing."
<Johann Ernst Eberlin's Motets for Lent / Reinhard G. Pauly / Journal of the American Musicological Society (1962) 15 (2): 182-192.>


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)




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## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Ah, but listen to Liszt's _Die Lorelei_, composed in 1856, just as Wagner was embarking on _Tristan_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The opening to Parsifal also seems to take inspiration from the start of this work:






Wagner makes something much more memorable out of it, though.

Liszt wasn't above doing this himself either. The thematic material of the _Piano Sonata_ is very similar to that in the _Quasi Faust_ movement of Alkan's _Piano Sonata_ of a few years earlier. Of course Liszt and Alkan knew each other and may have, at some point, discussed musical ideas relating to this shared interest.


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## cheregi (Jul 16, 2020)

I'm quite partial to the Medieval and Renaissance model of 'borrowing,' where composers were expected and encouraged to make frequent use of melodies from the popular-song repertoire, the plainchant repertoire, or other composers, even to the point of lifting not just one voice but the entire multipart texture of portions of other composers' works. I think the increasing emphasis on the isolated genius producing works of total originality that has slowly crept into conceptions of music-making since then has caused nothing but harm.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

I love both of these. I think the Mozart might be more of a subtle homage than borrowing


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Other possible examples:











And:


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## perempe (Feb 27, 2014)

Mozart's Flute Quartet in A major (K. 298)
Bizet's Intermezzo from Carmen


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)




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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

consuono said:


> I love both of these. I think the Mozart might be more of a subtle homage than borrowing



View attachment Once again on Mozartâ€™s Requiem.pdf

This "D-C#-D-E-F" is also a unifying motif in the Mozart requiem, along with the "breath" motif. I don't particularly think Mozart was deriving from only Handel in this case, because it is found in works of Mozart's other predecessors*, and also Mozart's earlier vocal works. (that misericordias domini and credo from missa brevis K.192 come to mind, but only in the requiem Mozart exposes it right-off the bat, in the "introitus" and the "amen", like how Beethoven would later do with his four-note motif in his 5th symphony). It just seems to stem from a certain 18th century tradition, and it doesn't really remind me of Handel as much as salus infirmorum from Litany of the blessed virgin Mary K.195 does, for example.
*(btw, I also think Eberlin's influence on Mozart is vastly underrated compared to Handel's and Christian Bach's. -I think theirs is actually somewhat overhyped)


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

hammeredklavier said:


>


All these might just be general elements of a tradition, (rather than borrowings between individuals), I'm not entirely certain.

M. Haydn Missa sti. Gabrielis MH 17: crucifixus (1768) 
W.A. Mozart spaurmesse K.258: crucifixus (1776)

M. Haydn Missa sancti Raphaelis MH 87: kyrie (1768) 
W.A. Mozart spatzenmesse K.220: kyrie (1775)

Use of muted trumpets -
L. Mozart missa solemnis in C: crucifixus (before 1764)
W.A. Mozart waisenhausmesse K.139: crucifixus (1768)

use of strings as introduction and accompaniment for concluding fugue -
W.A. Mozart missa in honorem sanctissimae trinitatis K.167: cum sanctu spiritu (1773)
M. Haydn Missa in honorem sanctae Ursulae MH 546: cum sanctu spiritu (1792)

use of strings -
M. Haydn Missa sancti nicolai Tolentini MH 109: gloria (1768)
W.A. Mozart missa in honorem sanctissimae trinitatis K.167: kyrie (1773)



hammeredklavier said:


> btw, I speculate that Mozart's use of arpeggiated, syncopated figures in vocal music also has its roots in the Salzburg tradition, most probably passed on from guys like Eberlin and Adlgasser.
> (I don't find them in vocal music by other guys like Joseph Haydn or the Bach Brothers)
> 
> Johann Ernst Eberlin (1702-1762) - Missa in C
> ...


This is also interesting:

M. Haydn Missa sti. Gabrielis: et incarnatus est (1768)
Beethoven missa solemnis: et incarnatus est (1823)

"Gregorian melodies, of course, continued to be used in the Mass throughout the eighteenth century; but by Beethoven's time they were relatively rare, especially in orchestral Masses. The one composer who still used them extensively is Michael Haydn, in his a cappella Masses for Advent and Lent. It is significant that in some of these he limits the borrowed melody to the Incarnatus and expressly labels it "Corale." In the Missa dolorum B. M. V. (1762) it is set in the style of a harmonized chorale, in the Missa tempore Qudragesima of 1794 note against note, with the Gregorian melody (Credo IV of the Liber Usualis) appearing in the soprano. I have little doubt that Beethoven knew such works of Michael Haydn, at that time the most popular composer of sacred music in Austria."
< Beethoven , By Michael Spitzer , Pg. 123 ~ 124 >


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

hammeredklavier said:


> All these might just be general elements of a tradition, (rather than borrowings between individuals), I'm not entirely certain.


{Mass in C major, K. 257 "Credo"}
Its name derives from the long setting of the Credo, in which the word "Credo" is repeatedly sung in a two-note motif. It thus joins a tradition of so-called "Credo Masses", including Mozart's own Kleine Credo Messe (K. 192) and Beethoven's later Missa solemnis."


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Michael Haydn Symphony No.28 in C, MH 384 (1784): III. Fugato. Vivace assai
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart: Symphony No.41 in C, K.551 (1788): IV. Molto allegro

Also Mozart's K.291 is his copy (copied down for study purposes) of the fugato finale from M. Haydn's 22nd symphony.


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)




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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

I think it's a question of whether the "borrower" improves on what is borrowed. Another possible instance, to me anyway:


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

"... it is interesting that, having influenced Haydn, Bach (CPE) later allowed himself to be influenced by the younger composer, just as Haydn later influenced and was influenced by Mozart. ..."

compare the string figures in measure 9 of Confitebor tibi domine from Mozart Vesperae solennes de confessore (1780)
with those of Gloria from Haydn Schöpfungsmesse (1801)
---
Mozart Symphony No. 25 in G Minor, K. 183: I. Allegro con brio (1773)
Mozart Missa longa K.262 - "mortuorum" (1775)
J. Haydn - Hob XXII:12 - Mass in B flat major "Theresienmesse" - agnus dei (1799)
---
Mozart Symphony No. 40 in G Minor, K. 550: II. Andante (1788)
Erblicke hier, betörter Mensch from Haydn oratorio Die Jahreszeiten (1801)
---
Adagio introduction from Mozart: String Quartet No.19 In C, K.465 - "Dissonance" (1785)
Die Vorstellung des Chaos from Haydn oratorio Die Schöpfung (1798)
( "... Yet he remained a bit flummoxed by this opening, saying only "if Mozart wrote it he must have meant it." This from the composer who, later on, would make a musical depiction of Chaos resolved into blinding C Major light in The Creation. ..." )
---
the way the first movements open:
Mozart - String Quartet No. 15 in D minor K. 421 (1783)
Haydn - String Quartet Op. 76, No. 2 in D minor 'Quinten' (1797)
---
Agnus Dei from Mozart Krönungsmesse (1779)
Agnus Dei from Haydn Harmoniemesse (1802)
Adagio from symphony No.98 (1792)


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

consuono said:


> I think it's a question of whether the "borrower" improves on what is borrowed.


As the composers before have, that's often what I think about while listening to music. "How could I improve on this Brahms piece, this Bach piece." It's not that hard to do, I hear the improvements in my head. The real problem and source of the setback lies with doing this repeatedly and consistently well enough to create a personal oeuvre: it's the drive and passion required to actually do it. They had this drive and passion because the experience felt new and meaningful enough to them. How Brahms of all people in the late 19th century still had passion, I don't know... He was a gift to mankind, truly one of a kind.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Hummel, Fantasy for Piano in E flat Major op. 18 (1805) - IV. Allegro assai --- [ 4:00 ~ 5:00 ]

Chopin - Ballade No. 4, Op. 52 --- [ 9:00 ~ 10:00 ]

"The 19th-century composer who owes the most to Hummel, and with whom he enjoyed the warmest relationship, was Chopin."
<Hummel and the Romantics>


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## eric1 (Oct 27, 2020)

Shostakovich 15th symphony, lots of quotes including the out of nowhere William Tell Overture quote. Brahms 1st symphony and Schubert 9th symphony finales paying tribute to Beethoven.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Joni Mitchell said something to the effect that even if she were to "borrow" a tune or lyric the manner in which she would use it would be filtered through her mind and hence original.


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## peewee678 (May 2, 2016)

Well, dear Mr. Poulenc, yes I'm talking to you Francis! 
Since you're asking.. Where did you get *this* idea from (@0:18)?






Wait, don't say a thing! Just let me guess...






Gotcha!


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## Gargamel (Jan 5, 2020)

Gordontrek said:


> 1 minute mark, 2 minute mark, and 5 minute mark below, sound familiar? Ludwig you thief!


Can't remember Beethoven borrowing Mozart myself, except maybe this one:











Brahms? Yes. (The respective final movements of Symphony No. 1 and the Jupiter symphony.)











There are lots of quotations in Ives' symphony No. 2, but nobody considers this one of them:











Sibelius: "Hmmm, I think I'll compose a national anthem."


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

European composers borrowed folk material freely. The beautiful slow movement in Tchaikovsky's _String Quartet_ takes from the Russian folk song _Volga Boatmen_. Rimsky's powerfully spiritual _Russian Easter Overture_ takes from Russian Orthodox chants. American composers relied heavily on American folk music and hymns as well. The refreshing and pastoral _Appalachian Spring Suite_ takes from the Shaker hymn _Simple Gifts_. Charles Ives managed to get _Columbia Gem of the Ocean_ into almost everything he ever composed. The fact that Dvorak's _New World Symphony_, composed while the Czech composer was visiting the USA takes from the African-American folk song _Going Home_ prompted some Americans to claim Dvorak as the founder of the "American School" of classical music; though apart from incorporating the tune into the lovely slow movement, Dvorak's _New World Symphony_ remains essentially European.

Bedřich Smetana took the theme for _Ma Vlast_ (My Fatherland) from an Italian folk song; and later that theme was taken for the Israeli national anthem (_Hatikvah_).

I suspect a good many of our favorite classical music melodies changed hands from folk music and hymns to classical music and then some changed hands again to serve popular music, hymns, and national anthems. So there's lots of mixing and matching.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

peewee678 said:


> Gotcha!


Well, both pieces begin with trumpet playing the first five notes of a major scale in a rapid tempo, a common instrumental motif, for example played on flute in Papageno's aria, _The Magic Flute_, by Mozart. Then both get to the sixth scale note, but after that go their own ways. All three excerpts are from pieces that are in a folk-like or popular idiom. I would say that in context these are likenesses, not plagiarism.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Roger Knox said:


> Well, both pieces begin with trumpet playing the first five notes of a major scale in a rapid tempo, a common instrumental motif, for example played on flute in Papageno's aria, _The Magic Flute_, by Mozart. Then both get to the sixth scale note, but after that go their own ways. All three excerpts are from pieces that are in a folk-like or popular idiom. I would say that in context these are likenesses, not plagiarism.


Yeah, I thought this was an over-reach but didn't think it was worth responding.


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## Alfacharger (Dec 6, 2013)

Coach G said:


> The fact that Dvorak's _New World Symphony_, composed while the Czech composer was visiting the USA takes from the African-American folk song _Going Home_ prompted some Americans to claim Dvorak as the founder of the "American School" of classical music; though apart from incorporating the tune into the lovely slow movement, Dvorak's _New World Symphony_ remains essentially European.


Actually the song "Going Home" was written and based on Dvorak's Largo tune.

https://www.wrti.org/post/story-behind-nostalgic-melody-dvorak-became-song-goin-home


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Alfacharger said:


> Actually the song "Going Home" was written and based on Dvorak's Largo tune.
> 
> https://www.wrti.org/post/story-behind-nostalgic-melody-dvorak-became-song-goin-home


The tune from the 9th symphony was mostly likely influenced by Negro spirituals, e.g. "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot."

From *Wikipedia*:



> While director of the National Conservatory he encountered an African-American student, Harry T. Burleigh, who sang traditional spirituals to him. Burleigh, later a composer himself, said that Dvořák had absorbed their 'spirit' before writing his own melodies.
> 
> The second movement is introduced by a harmonic progression of chords in the wind instruments. Beckerman interprets these chords as a musical rendition of the narrative formula "Once upon a time". Then a solo cor anglais (English horn) plays the famous main theme in D-flat major accompanied by muted strings. Dvořák was said to have changed the theme from clarinet to cor anglais as it reminded him of the voice of Harry Burleigh.


While the tune was original with Dvorak, it was his attempt at writing something in the style of the spirituals he had heard.


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## thejewk (Sep 13, 2020)

I'm doing a deep dive in the music of JS Bach at the moment, and having a wonderful time. Recently I got a copy of his complete four part harmonisations of traditional chorale melodies from the Lutheran hymn books. It's surprising how much use he got from these melodies, and it's not uncommon for the same chorale text to appear in two or three cantatas, two organ preludes and even more than that. Sometimes as a cantus firmus, sometimes as a direct sung melody, sometimes as a horn obligatto over something sharing themes with the chorale text, etc.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

thejewk said:


> I'm doing a deep dive in the music of JS Bach at the moment, and having a wonderful time. Recently I got a copy of his complete four part harmonisations of traditional chorale melodies from the Lutheran hymn books. It's surprising how much use he got from these melodies, and it's not uncommon for the same chorale text to appear in two or three cantatas, two organ preludes and even more than that. Sometimes as a cantus firmus, sometimes as a direct sung melody, sometimes as a horn obligatto over something sharing themes with the chorale text, etc.


Bach didn't just use church melodies. Have a listen to the opening of the St Matthew Passion and then to Marin Marais' Tombeau for Monsieur Meliton.


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## Parley (May 29, 2021)

Mandryka said:


> Bach didn't just use church melodies. Have a listen to the opening of the St Matthew Passion and then to Marin Marais' Tombeau for Monsieur Meliton.


Both Bach and Handel and their ilk were great borrowers both from themselves and others. So what? The music is some of the greatest ever written!


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Parley said:


> Both Bach and Handel and their ilk were great borrowers both from themselves and others. So what? The music is some of the greatest ever written!


Sure -- the thing that interests me is that Bach, who is a composer I like very much, himself liked composers I don't like very much -- Marais, Francois Couperin, Vivaldi, Reincken . . . I suppose there's no interesting conclusion to be drawn, but it always makes me reflect on the aleatoric nature of taste.


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## Dizzy J (Jun 12, 2021)

I just joined...so I haven't read through all the responses here...so maybe someone might have already mentioned this -- but Edward Elgar noted that the opening bars of "Nimrod" (of his "Enigma Variations") were made to suggest the main theme of the second movement of Beethoven's Piano Sonata No.8 in C Minor (Pathetique).


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

J. Haydn Mass in E flat: 



Beethoven Op.55/ii: 




J. Haydn Op.20/5/iv: 



Beethoven Op.55/iv:


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

hammeredklavier said:


> I. Allegretto - Andante pastorale - Allegretto - Villanella grazioso, un poco adagio : 00:00
> II. Tempo mederno (Allegretto) : 09:40
> III. Allegro molto : 12:44
> IV. Tempo mederno (Allegro molto) : 18:38
> ...


Missa brevis in C, "spatzenmesse" K.220: Benedictus




(1775)

0:01 



5:38 







(1784)

6:34 







(1784~1785)

-----

4:28 







(1773)

1:20 







(1788)


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## WNvXXT (Nov 22, 2020)

Does this count?

All by Myself - Eric Carmen

_Rachmaninoff's music was in the public domain in the United States at that time and so Carmen thought no copyright existed on it, but it was still protected outside the U.S. subsequent to the release of the album. He was later contacted by the Rachmaninoff estate and informed that it was protected._


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Dizzy J said:


> I just joined...so I haven't read through all the responses here...so maybe someone might have already mentioned this -- but Edward Elgar noted that the opening bars of "Nimrod" (of his "Enigma Variations") were made to suggest the main theme of the second movement of Beethoven's Piano Sonata No.8 in C Minor (Pathetique).


I didn't know that Elgar had noted that connection, which makes sense as you have described it. But I think the main thing is that Elgar varied and extended Beethoven's theme to the point where, not only are the suggestions not immediately obvious, but Elgar has re-imagined the melody into something that is quite different. It is not borrowing, but an amazing feat of composition sparked by a pre-existing source.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

thejewk said:


> I'm doing a deep dive in the music of JS Bach at the moment, and having a wonderful time. Recently I got a copy of his complete four part harmonisations of traditional chorale melodies from the Lutheran hymn books. It's surprising how much use he got from these melodies, and it's not uncommon for the same chorale text to appear in two or three cantatas, two organ preludes and even more than that. Sometimes as a cantus firmus, sometimes as a direct sung melody, sometimes as a horn obligatto over something sharing themes with the chorale text, etc.


Yeah, it's something that comes Bach again and again from time to time.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

The OP called himself Francois Poulenc, but curiously, he didn't even mention how many times Poulenc borrowed from himself. Like the opening to his Gloria was taken from the second of his 3 Pieces. Tut, tut.


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