# What you can do



## LFcatface (Nov 21, 2007)

I thought it might be a good idea to start a thread where we can share ideas about what we can each do to ensure a thriving future for great music.

Classical Music gets a lot of bad press and there is a serious problem with bringing the music to new audiences.

Many really talented artists never get a chance to have a career because the market is so small that only a few very lucky,or very agressive determined personalities are able to make it .

I will start by making a few suggestions that might promote a healthy environment and give some talented musicians a leg up!

1) Rather than only buying tickets to see star performers, give up and coming artists a chance. For example if you go to see an opera and you notice a talented young singer in a small role,make a note of his or her name and if you see that the singer will be performing in recital,buy a ticket for that performer rather than a star performer's sold out concert.

2) If you notice that a young competition winner will be doing a concert in your local area, buy a ticket and go! I can not tell you how many wonderful performances I have seen in empty halls, just because the musician could not afford a press agent.

3) Make sure that some of your classical music budget for tickets and recordings goes to the work of living composers.If you can not find any music that has been written by someone who is still breathing you are out of touch and need to expand your musical horizons.If you don't like modern music at least become familiar with new music so that you can talk about it intelligently. If living composers are not supported music will die.

4) If you sing in an amateur choir or play in an amateur orchestra, raise money to be able to fund scholarships for young professional singers and musicians still in training to fill out your group as ringers and make your performances better. Amateurs become better musicians when they work with pros, professional musicians starting out need all the gigs they can get in order to become full time professionals and audiences get a better performance.

What do you think of my ideas?

Any other suggestions?


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## Manuel (Feb 1, 2007)

There's just one answer:

_Make sure the people is educated to be smart._



> 2) If you notice that a young competition winner will be doing a concert in your local area, buy a ticket and go! I can not tell you how many wonderful performances I have seen in empty halls, just because the musician could not afford a press agent.


That's not the point. If the artists there are good enough and the audience is trained to appreciate it, people will fight for seats and will stand huge queues to attend performances.

The whole thing it's not just a trade off between all the Joshua Bells and the Xavier Inchaustis out there. (For those who doesn't know, Joshua Bell is... Joshua Bell. While Xavier Inchausti is an 18 year old argentinian violinist that kicks ***).
It's all about good musicians. As long as the performer is good and the potential auditorium is capable of understanding what the artist has to say things will be ok. And we won't have to spread weird advise like:



> If you don't like modern music at least become familiar with new music so that you can talk about it intelligently. If living composers are not supported music will die.


I recently read William Easterly's _The Elusive Quest for Growth_ in a Macroeconomics course. And your thread remembers me very much about the ideas in that book.
Looking for sustained economic growth economists have been thinking it could be found either at: investment in capital, investment in education, tons of public debt, casting adecuate magic spells, population growth control, lending tons of dollars to third world countries.

Guess what. It was all about incentives. Create a scenario where each guy has the right incentives and that's it.

You don't need to ask people to go and see John Doe instead of Vengerov, just because JD is lesser known. If he is any good and the potential public can appreciate that, they will choose wisely.
If your model gains acceptance, in a few years new artists will need to make little effort, as they will know there's already an audience for newcomers. What keeps the world full of young talents (take Sergei Kachatryan, for example) is their awareness of a competitive market outside the conservatoire. If their auditorium is granted, just because they are young and promise, they will not need to invest in capacity as much as they do nowadays.

Your simple model will actually diminish the number of good young musicians and composers.


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## Manuel (Feb 1, 2007)

By the way, why did you change your nickname from:

[***]

to LFcat?


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## LFcatface (Nov 21, 2007)

*Hi Everyone!*

Actually what I am saying is that perhaps given the choice of buying Joshua Bell tickets the audience should take a chance on Xavier Inchausti if he comes to the US or the UK. In fact, I bet that one could get better seats for less money to see that talented young man.

However, the reality of the music world is that it operates on a "brand name" selling principal. People recognise the name Joshua Bell, and so they buy his tickets, because they know what they are getting and they also know that when they tell their friends that they have gone to see a Joshua Bell concert they will understand that they have gone to a good concert.

Many up and coming performers spend a very, very, large percentage of their earnings to hire press agents and PR firms. That means that those artists who are of greater means have a better chance of going further because they can afford to invest that money back into their careers at the early stages, while those perhaps struggling to support a family or froma poor country can not. Now that the internet has taken off as a way to get the word out about new artists, things might improve.

All it takes is one minute on youtube to see that Xavier is a very promising young player and very worth seeing.So I encourage everyone to take a look at the posts of his playing and go to see him if you have the opportunity.

I am grateful to Manuel for bringing Xavier Inchausti to my attention I will not forget his name and certainly am looking forward to hearing him in the concert hall soon.


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## Aigen (Jul 30, 2007)

I'm interested in your assertion that classical music gets a lot of bad press. Where exactly?


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## Daniel (Jul 11, 2004)

Dear Manuel,

actually I changed this membername on the member's request, as it is the full right to save a kind of anonymity in internet.


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## LFcatface (Nov 21, 2007)

Hi Aigen,
You took me literally. I was not referring to actual press articles, but "bad press" as an expression, forgive me for using a local colloquial on an international board . What I mean by that expression, is that the general public (I am speaking of the public in USA and the UK) perceives classical music as boring and elitist and expresses that opinion in everything from TV commercials to general discourse.

This is not a revelation.


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## Guest (Nov 24, 2007)

The basic idea behind this thread is presumably how consumers of classical music (i.e. us) may promote the best new producers in classical music (artists, composers etc) so that they do not fall by the wayside given the dominance of established personalities. 

This is merely one example among thousands (or millions) of how small firms in markets for goods and services evolve. At the more general level, it has been a topic of interest among Governments around the world for decades. All sorts of policies to stimulate the growth of new enterprise - or "Small Firms", as they are generally referred to - have been proposed, tried and tested. 

This subject is normally tackled from an economics/commerce point of view, since any proper analysis usually involves concepts such as “economic welfare”, “innovation processes”, “market failure”, “externalities”, “additionality”, “displacement”, and such-like. The non-professional generally has no real idea about any of these concepts, and their eyes usually glaze over at the mere mention of them. 

Of course, this does not stop the occasional pure “Arty type” from proposing some ideas in one field or other in which they happen to be interested. However, generally speaking they are not worth the paper they are written on. With respect, this appears to be case with the weird set of proposals set forth in the first post on this page. 

Suffice to say that many such half-baked “good ideas” often turn out to have minimal overall favourable impact on the market. More often than not they tend to have harmful overall distortionary effects if a proper full-market evaluation is carried out (e.g. via adverse displacement effects on other artists whose talents may not be the subject of favourable treatment for some reason.)


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## Manuel (Feb 1, 2007)

Mango said:


> Suffice to say that many such half-baked "good ideas" often turn out to have minimal overall favourable impact on the market. More often than not they tend to have harmful overall distortionary effects if a proper full-market evaluation is carried out (e.g. via adverse displacement effects on other artists whose talents may not be the subject of favourable treatment for some reason.)


I agree with that.



Manuel said:


> If your model gains acceptance, in a few years new artists will need to make little effort, as they will know there's already an audience for newcomers. What keeps the world full of young talents (take Sergei Kachatryan, for example) is their awareness of a competitive market outside the conservatoire. If their auditorium is granted, just because they are young and promise, they will not need to invest in capacity as much as they do nowadays.
> Your simple model will actually diminish the number of good young musicians and composers.





LFcatface said:


> You decided launch a personal campaign against me


You are missing the point. As educated free thinker I am I feel it's right to evaluate each single idea I read out there. Therefore, i'll celebrate the output that I think is smart; as well as I'm entitled to question and rebate the trash.
If we appear here to rebate everything you say it's just because, so far, we don't think a bit of your production is interesting or brilliant. And that's it. You don't need to elaborate complicated plots and personal crusades. You haven't managed to come with interesting concepts or something that may appeal to me. But I'm open to the possibility that you may do such a thing in the future.

And one more thing. There's a Laffer curve on post's extension: when a written post is too long, I just skip it. There's a difference between:
- "I know a lot and I can write it out", and
- "I don't know where to stop writing".


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## LFcatface (Nov 21, 2007)

*Future of Classical Music*

A new concept
I recently had great success promoting an opera concert in a local pub. Before the event I was a bit nervous because I had no idea whether it would work or not

The audience at the opera night in the pub, got to hear the kind of artists they would find at a regional opera house up close, and were able to enjoy, a buffet meal and drinks. It was sort of a dinner theatre atmosphere.

I was prepared to have to amplify the singers because the audience at that venue, who are used to hearing jazz, usually talk during the music.

But it was amazing, during the performances, you could hear a pin drop.The singers did not need the amplification because the audience was spellbound and attentive.

Between performances the audience ate and chatted and relaxed.

Everyone had a great time and I think it was very enjoyable for those who are used to listening to their recordings at home and unwinding rather then sitiing still in concert halls .

I would appreciate the opinions of members of this forum especially about the below article by someone I consider to be a very fine composer
I find his ideas to be as interesting as his music , especially his exploration of whether the venue, such as a concert hall is what is keeping some audiences away from serious music.

_ From The Future of Classical Music? By Mathew Hindson

This article was written for Fine Music magazine, the journal of radio 2MBS FM, for publication in 2005.

recently attended two concerts in the Sydney region. Both featured performers of outstanding quality, the selection of music was interesting and engaging, and in each case the audiences were obviously enjoying themselves immensely. In spite of these similarities, there was one difference - the audience demographic. The first concert was a performance by a local amateur orchestra in a town hall - at this concert, I was the youngest audience member. The second concert was a presentation of Australian Hip-Hop music at the Sydney Festival - at in this concert, I was the oldest audience member.

We have all read articles predicting the imminent death of classical music, sometimes near-hysterical tomes surely more applicable to the demise of the entire Western Civilisation. A solution often given amidst the gnashing of teeth is to expand the audience demographic, or more simply, to get more young people into the audience.

On the face of it, it's puzzling that young people do not attend classical music concerts in greater numbers. There are thousands of students studying musical instruments each year at schools and universities. Surely there would be enough of them whose interest can be sustained through to adulthood, and consequently who may be interested in attending classical music concerts in their twenties and thirties. Who are these people? What are they doing now? Have their tastes changed so much?

Organizations like Musica Viva are trying to recapture this demographic's perceived latent interest with alternative concert presentation formats. The Ménage series is billed as "an edgy new concept in music events staged in the hottest inner city nightspots… designed for the 18 - 35 set, who want something different to the 'concert hall experience' but still want to hear brilliant music with friends."

So is it the Concert Hall that is unattractive to younger people? Why would people prefer to hear an ensemble play in a nightclub rather than in, for example, Angel Place? Are younger people are unwilling to concentrate silently for the length of a Beethoven Sonata without a drink of wine or an SMS from their friends to get them through "the boring bits"?
think it's probably more generally a wider aspect of presentation: of the expectation that young people will be surrounded by people from very different walks of life, as an ignorant 'outsider' unaware of tradition. Newbies to classical music concerts invariably ask whether they have to wear black tie, even to a local choral concert in a church hall, let alone to the Opera House.
_


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## Manuel (Feb 1, 2007)

LFcatface said:


> _"And one more thing. There's a Laffer curve on post's extension: when a written post is too long, I just skip it. There's a difference between:
> - "I know a lot and I can write it out", and
> - "I don't know where to stop writing"._


You are missing the point again*. That post wasn't about you. It's my attitude towards what is written in forums all over the internet. I was just signaling the path you should walk through if you really are interested in enlightening me (as you said in other thread). This had nothing to do with the stuff you write or expose here whatsoever.

*Homework: Estimate how much money you would owe me if you paid one dollar for each time I show how you fail to understand ideas here.


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## Manuel (Feb 1, 2007)

Btw, to whom may concern,

_I would really appreciate a notification when my posts are removed or hatcheted._

And about Xavier Inchausti, you can watch a couple of videos at Youtube.


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## Manuel (Feb 1, 2007)

LFcatface said:


> The conclusion:
> 
> _"It's all about good musicians. As long as the performer is good and the potential auditorium is capable of understanding what the artist has to say things will be ok. "_
> 
> ...


You missed the point again. Perhaps I should rephrase it:

_It's all about good musicians. As long as the performer is good and the potential auditorium is capable of understanding what the artist has to say things will be ok._

_*I hope that works now*_


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## LFcatface (Nov 21, 2007)

Hi Manuel,

"It's all about good musicians. As long as the performer is good and the potential auditorium is capable of understanding what the artist has to say things will be ok."

I am so relieved, wait until I tell all of the virtuostic Eastern European players who are playing in the streets of London for spare change and driving cabs that a guy with a computer in Argentina says things will be OK.

It is the sign for which they have been waiting. Things will be ok . things will be ok......
right Manuel says " As long as the performer is good and the potential auditorium is capable of understanding what the artist has to say 

The Eastern European Players are "good "and the audience that buys the tickets to see someone with a press agent is capable of understanding, but the problem remains... what doyou suggest?


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## Manuel (Feb 1, 2007)

LFcatface said:


> Hi Manuel,
> 
> "It's all about good musicians. As long as the performer is good and the potential auditorium is capable of understanding what the artist has to say things will be ok."
> 
> ...


You missed the point again (How is the homework going? I need to see some figures). We already have the talented musicians. It is time we start educating the *other *people for them to appreciate arts. So that the potential public feels attracted to visiting concert halls instead of watching Big Brother.


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## LFcatface (Nov 21, 2007)

*Hi Manuel*

Ok , I did my homework I admit that I did misunderstand you and I take full responsiblity for understanding you not matter how unclear you were.

I calculated the sum, but then I donated it to Eastern European string players performing in the London Underground(Subway trains) maybe then they can buy computers and join this forum!

_"It is time we start educating the other people for them to appreciate arts. So that the potential public feels attracted to visiting concert halls instead of watching Big Brother."_

I agree


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

Apologies in advance if I waffle a little bit here. It is, to use a cliché, "the best of times & worst of times" for Western Art music. On the one hand, we have an unprecedented embarrassment of riches in the realm of recorded music. Furthermore, we have a collective standard of musicianship that would have been the envy of any other generation. Unfortunately, we have an audience percentage that is dipping. Walking against the pop-culture headwind is more challenging than ever.

Sr. M's point was framed as a question by none other than Sir Georg Solti: "How do we convince them that a good symphony is a _very_ good thing?" An effective answer to that would be worth a Templeton prize, I think.

Then, sometimes, I have those rueful moments when I think about Dorothy Parker's quip about acculturation.* For my part, I've had my turns as member of two different major Orchestra societies, have been a spirited participant in those "radio-telethons," and currently contribute to a fund for aspiring singers (and yes, I know singers will be produced regardless of my contributions, just like I know that the next election will not be decided by my [lone] vote). Still, I contribute, and I vote.

A rare worthwhile piece of pop-culture comes out of the mouth of Chrissie Hynde. She sung "Everything touched is my political choice/The life you lead is your political voice."

*she said "you can lead a ***** to culture, but you can't make her think."


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## LFcatface (Nov 21, 2007)

*It is important!*

Thank you for your eloquent response.

Your contribution " to a fund for aspiring singers" is very important.

The finest singing talent I have had the pleasure to work with in all my years of teaching is now working in a bank and can not afford to continue her studies.

This is a young lady with an instrument as good as Rene Flemming's and a wonderful sense of musicality developed because she is the daughter of opera singers(aswas the case with Rene Flemming) and was exposed to music and good singing from a very early age. She learned to read music before she learned to read and write English.

On the other hand I am currently working with a very talented, hard working young lady with a good voice, and a family who can afford to pay for her training and support her while she studies. She has a chance of becoming a professional opera singer but there is nothing that I can do I with her in lessons that will give her the potential to be "the next Rene Flemming". She does not have a world class instrument and nothing can make up for the fact that she was already a teen ager when she commenced her studies.

A fund for aspiring singers has the potential to nurture great talent that would have otherwise been wasted to the public.

Bravo for caring about the future of aspiring singers!


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## Oneiros (Aug 28, 2006)

There are many things that performers could do to create a place for themselves in the marketplace. There may be relatively little overall interest in classical music (something like <1% of total CD sales) but this may be seen as a challenge - it doesn't exclude decent musicians from making a living. The contemporary musical environment is very different from the traditional environment in which classical music grew and was appreciated, and if musicians don't make any attempt to adapt to these changes, then success will probably remain just a dream.

As for the article: IMO, lack of understanding (coming from lack of experience) of the concert hall is what puts young people off attending more classical concerts, as well as the accessibility and appeal of popular music, which now 'floods the market'. Musica Viva's idea sounds like an interesting solution - I'd like to hear more about that.



Manuel said:


> It is time we start educating the *other *people for them to appreciate arts. So that the potential public feels attracted to visiting concert halls instead of watching Big Brother.





Chi_town/Philly said:


> "you can lead a ***** to culture, but you can't make her think."


Yes, many people simply lack the capacity to appreciate art in a meaningful way, and this doesn't seem to be taught at schools or universities. To me it makes no difference whether all they can hear in music is pretty sounds, or (being educated) a set of chord progressions used in an innovative way. What's lacking is a functional integration of the art's meaning into one's life. Unless this is achieved, whats the point of art appreciation?


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