# Be honest here:Do you gloss over Beethoven's 1st, 2nd, 4th and 8th symphony?



## Guest

Whenever i get my hands on a new symphony box cycle, i always listen to 3,5,7 and 9th first. Then i move over to the 6th symphony. Do you find yourself ignoring the 1st,2nd,4th and 8th symphony?

I will be honest here, i never like those 4 symphonies. what about you?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Nos. 1, 2 and 4 are probably my favourites. No. 8 a but lower down, but I like it much more than no. 7 or 9

Last year I made a poll about these four symphonies actually, I think no. 8 was the most popular of the four mentioned.


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## moody

karajan said:


> Whenever i get my hands on a new symphony box cycle, i always listen to 3,5,7 and 9th first. Then i move over to the 6th symphony. Do you find yourself ignoring the 1st,2nd,4th and 8th symphony?
> 
> I will be honest here, i never like those 4 symphonies. what about you?


I think you are looking only for the big thrills and I understand that. But you need to give them all some of your time to see a progression and they are all rewarding in any case.


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## Andreas

I find Beethoven's entire symphonic output marvellous, not least because of its amazing diversity. But I am particularly fond of nos. 1, 2, 4 and 8, his perhaps lightest, most classical, least dramatic, least ambitious, most harmless, most charming symphonies. I like their conciseness, their pureness and their architecture.

Of course part of their charme lies in the fact that the other symphonies are in many ways their complete opposite: expansive, subjective, programmish, theatrical, composed as much with the sledgehammer as with the pen. Nos. 3, 5-7 and 9 are events as much as music. They are charged with ideas and ideals - and therefore more Beethovenian, in a way.


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## Guest

karajan said:


> Do you find yourself ignoring the 1st,2nd,4th and 8th symphony?


No. I like the man's company and can't get enough of his symphonies, though, I'm reminded of Groucho Marx...

"I love my cigar, but I take it out on my mouth once in a while!"


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## Ukko

What strange experiences symphonies 1 & 2 must have been for audience members expecting something like Mozart or Haydn. Of course I know better, but that's the 'expectation' I attempt to wear when I sit down to listen. It 'doubles the pleasure'.

The 4th I have always considered to be the 5th's partner. My reading even suggests that Beethoven composed them that way. The 4th looks up, the 5th looks down, from Beethovian vantage points.

I don't listen to the 8th often. My impression is that it's a deliberate, finely crafted exhibit on the subject: Proof that I can Play by the Rules.


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## Mahlerian

No, I love the 4th, and any cycle should have a great 4th symphony to match. I love the others as well, but not as much as the "big" symphonies.


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## ptr

I rarely gloss anything, and in Beethoven's Symphonic oeuvre 1, 2, 4 & 8 is among those I like the best! And I think Mahlerian hit the nail though the board, any composers oeuvre should be measured by the likeability of his for fourth Symphony, and LvB's 4th measures as one of his best in my simpletonian way of measuring music! 

/ptr


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## ahammel

Why would you gloss over the 8th? It's the best of the cycle!


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## Andreas

Hilltroll72 said:


> The 4th I have always considered to be the 5th's partner. My reading even suggests that Beethoven composed them that way. The 4th looks up, the 5th looks down, from Beethovian vantage points.
> 
> I don't listen to the 8th often. My impression is that it's a deliberate, finely crafted exhibit on the subject: Proof that I can Play by the Rules.


I think it was the 5th and 6th that were composed at the same time, and also the 7th and 8th.

And concerning the 8th: I would think that the rules called for a slow movement, but there isn't one. Pretty unconventional!


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## KenOC

ptr said:


> I rarely gloss anything, and in Beethoven's Symphonic oeuvre 1, 2, 4 & 8 is among those I like the best! And I think Mahlerian hit the nail though the board, any composers oeuvre should be measured by the likeability of his for fourth Symphony, and LvB's 4th measures as one of his best in my simpletonian way of measuring music!
> 
> /ptr


Ha! When I get a new set, I always listen to the 4th first, then the 2nd. Good way to get the measure of the conductor and orchestra...


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## Ukko

Andreas said:


> I think it was the 5th and 6th that were composed at the same time, and also the 7th and 8th.
> 
> And concerning the 8th: I would think that the rules called for a slow movement, but there isn't one. Pretty unconventional!


His notebooks have material that ended up in one or the other symphony intermingled... so I've read; ah, not in the notebooks.

The Rules referred to are not related to the digestive tract.


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## WJM

The 1st is one my favorites of Beethoven's works.


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## OldListener

I like them all. I might be obsessed with one at a particular time.


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## Bone

Love the 1st. 4th is good, too, but I admit that I prefer the odd numbered symphonies.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Mahlerian said:


> No, I love the 4th, and any cycle should have a great 4th symphony to match. I love the others as well, but not as much as the "big" symphonies.


I love every fourth symphony I've ever come across! I'm also partial to second symphonies.


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## BaronAlstromer

I like the first one.


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## AClockworkOrange

No, not all. I have favourites certainly but for me they include the 2nd and 8th Symphonies. 

Each symphony has a great deal to offer. It is one thing to skate over something if you have given it a chance and cannot get into it but to gloss over it because it isn't as popular as other works is a mistake. In this regard, just as with rock albums, some of the best works are the deep cuts - rather than the figure heads.


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## Amateur

The Second is one of my favorites, by Beethoven or anybody else. What's lovelier than the Larghetto? 
I don't think 4 and 8 require much defending, either (though it is remarkable how many different approaches there are to 8). 
But I must admit, were Beethoven's name not attached to 1, I suspect it would not be regarded so highly -- much as I enjoy the last movement. 
Thanks for the provocative question.


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## julianoq

I confess that even if I like them I don't listen to the 1st and 2nd that much. But the 4th and the 8th are among my favorites, I really love them, and I think the 4th gives an excellent idea of what to expect from the cycle!


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## KenOC

From a contemporary (1804) review of a performance of the 1st:

"This great symphony, this wonderful clear masterwork by B. which is full of harmony and still lacks all bizarre elements, was executed with taste and energy. How splendidly did the first Allegro sway back and forth in its emotional storms and effects! How pleasantly did the Quasi-Allegretto calm the excited senses! How unsurpassingly beautifully did the wind instruments play the 'singing' in the Trio of the minuet, in which the violins executed the progressing motions in entire synchrony!"


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## opus55

I probably listened to 9th the least. The others were played fairly evenly and the 1st is actually my favorite at this time. In any case, I play all discs in order when I get a box set.


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## Xaltotun

I love all of these, but the 4th quite much more than the rest, for its beauty-meets-architechture greatness.


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## Klavierspieler

I have not listened to any Beethoven Symphony in quite a while, but even when I did listen more I didn't really care for the first five (I should probably give them another listen). The eighth I like a whole lot, though. If I had to rank the Symphonies, it would probably be:

7
6
8
9
5
3
4
2
1


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## realdealblues

I never glance over those you've mentioned. 

Anytime there is a new Beethoven cycle that comes out the first recording I listen to is the 1st Symphony. I can usually tell right away whether or not the cycle will be something that I will enjoy. 

The 1st is my favorite Beethoven Symphony and it seems to be the one that is hardest to get right because out of the 100's of recordings I have of the 1st Symphony, very few ever get it right to my ears.


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## Ukko

realdealblues said:


> I never glance over those you've mentioned.
> 
> Anytime there is a new Beethoven cycle that comes out the first recording I listen to is the 1st Symphony. I can usually tell right away whether or not the cycle will be something that I will enjoy.
> 
> The 1st is my favorite Beethoven Symphony and it seems to be the one that is hardest to get right because out of the 100's of recordings I have of the 1st Symphony, very few ever get it right to my ears.


Interesting. I have expectations for the symphony, but they must be commonly known because they are often fulfilled. Can you describe what you want to hear?


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## Andreas

realdealblues said:


> I never glance over those you've mentioned.
> 
> Anytime there is a new Beethoven cycle that comes out the first recording I listen to is the 1st Symphony. I can usually tell right away whether or not the cycle will be something that I will enjoy.
> 
> The 1st is my favorite Beethoven Symphony and it seems to be the one that is hardest to get right because out of the 100's of recordings I have of the 1st Symphony, very few ever get it right to my ears.


This reminded me of something I heard about Stravinsky. He supposedly once said that conducting the 1st was just as difficult as conducting the 9th.


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## realdealblues

Hilltroll72 said:


> Interesting. I have expectations for the symphony, but they must be commonly known because they are often fulfilled. Can you describe what you want to hear?


It's lots of small things and one big thing.

One off the top of my head is in the 3rd movement of the 1st Symphony. I don't know exactly how to explain it but it's in the little transition between the 1st part and the 2nd part.

Furtwangler's 1952 gets it right. It's the part that starts at 15:39 into the clip below.





That little change can sound like a see-saw or a stutter step or like a bunch of beginners getting out of sync and it just falls apart on most recordings.

Overall, the main thing is a feeling I have...it's a certain pulse or flow through the work.

The best way I can try to describe it is when Glenn Gould re-recorded the Goldberg Variations where he tried to create a cohesive flow throughout the entire work rather than just thinking about it as individual parts.

That's what I listen for.


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## Ukko

"A stutter step". Good description. Now I need an example of getting it wrong... well, maybe not.


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## realdealblues

Hilltroll72 said:


> "A stutter step". Good description. Now I need an example of getting it wrong... well, maybe not.


I can't find a youtube clip but Barenboim's studio recording with the Staatskapelle Berlin. That one makes me cringe!

Karajan's 60's recording is another recording of the 1st Symphony I love...but his other recordings of the 1st bother me. As much as I love and adore Bernstein, I'm not a big fan of either of his recordings of the 1st.


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## Ukko

realdealblues said:


> I can't find a youtube clip but Barenboim's studio recording with the Staatskapelle Berlin. That one makes me cringe!
> 
> Karajan's 60's recording is another recording of the 1st Symphony I love...but his other recordings of the 1st bother me. As much as I love and adore Bernstein, I'm not a big fan of either of his recordings of the 1st.


Thinking on it, I believe I have been aware of short lived disarray after that stutter step. Didn't bother me though. I suspect that it's a tolerance learned from hearing a lot of pick-up bluegrass ensembles back in the day. Listening to music may be a... process; one that can can be paused momentarily (a few ticks) while the musicians regroup. Too many ticks cause a conscious awareness of the glitch, and points come off the scorecard.

Maybe.


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## Bradius

Depends on my mood. I love all of them. I like the even numbered ones when I want something lite and zippy. The odd for when I'm feeling weightier.


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## MagneticGhost

The 2nd and 4th maybe. 
But 1 and 8 are great.
One of my first cassette tapes, a 7th birthday present from my 12 yr old brother had The 8th paired with Schubert's unfinished. Ni idea now who was performing. Happy Listening Days.


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## Guest

I heard the eight recently under Barenboim, BBC Proms 2012 and the performance, symphony and orchestra were splendid!


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## Itullian

nope
I play them the most.


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## bigshot

I probably do.


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