# Stop Worrying About Whether The Ring "Makes Sense " !



## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Sure, it's easy enough for people to poke fun at Wagner's Ring and do parodies of it, such as the late Anna Russell , but to call its story and situations absurd and ridiculous actually misses the point
altogether . I actually enjoy these spoofs myself .
The Ring is mythology and fantasy . So are The Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, and Harry Potter .
Yet nobody complains that these stories are absurd . Real life isn't like the Ring and thee other books and films . But so what ?
One thing which has led toward people thinking the Ring is so ridiculous are the stereotypical images people have of Wagnerian opera, overweight women in ridiculous pseudo Viking costumes etc .
But I was watching the Siegfried from the controversial Lepage production of the Ring on DVD yesterday , and nobody resembled these stereotypes . 
They seemed like real people with real emotions and problems . Jay Hunter Morris as Siegfried was a real guy ,not a caricature , and a slimmed down Deborah Voigt was genuinely good -looking as Brunnhilde . You could see the characters interacting close up, the expressions on their faces .
I saw the whole Lepage Ring on PBS some time ago, and I would recommend the DVDs to anyone who is not a Wagner fan and dismisses the Ring as something laughable .


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

What's wonderful about art is that it _makes more sense_ than real life.

How much "sense" did yesterday make for you? What did you do all day? The same old things, most likely. You woke up, you showered, you ate, you drove to work, you sat a computer, you came home, you ate again, you talked about work or money or the stupid Congress, you watched or read or listened to something, you went to bed...Just like the day before, and the day before that. Well, what "sense" is there in that? Life is generally too sensible to make sense - at least when it isn't actually senseless.

You catch my drift?

Art takes a piece of life and intensifies it, goes to the heart of it, shows how it works out, confers a meaning - and in a flash, life makes sense. When we've been through a normal day we're apt to say "well, another day." No one, after a performance of the _Ring_, says "well, another operatic tetralogy."

Do I make sense?


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

if I were worrying about it "making sense", I would probably not be much of an opera fan to begin with


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> What's wonderful about art is that it _makes more sense_ than real life.
> 
> How much "sense" did yesterday make for you? What did you do all day? The same old things, most likely. You woke up, you showered, you ate, you drove to work, you sat a computer, you came home, you ate again, you talked about work or money or the stupid Congress, you watched or read or listened to something, you went to bed...Just like the day before, and the day before that. Well, what "sense" is there in that? Life is generally too sensible to make sense - at least when it isn't actually senseless.
> 
> ...


Today I woke up, showered, ate, spent a day at work and then I went to the nearest park that was pretty much empty at sunset, and I watched the moon rise over a lake and the stars shine through the leaves of a mighty oak tree, and I saw the forest take on a little more of the red and golden colours of autumn. And I felt a nearness of the same Gods who Wagner's long forgotten ancestors once revered in the endless forests of Europe, who came back from oblivion through Wagner and other men of the same mind, and who have been long calling out to me. And for the chance to hear that call and to respond to it - for that I am grateful.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

superhorn said:


> Sure, it's easy enough for people to poke fun at Wagner's Ring and do parodies of it


hmm.. not really.



superhorn said:


> such as the late Anna Russell


maybe she's a paid troll hired to do a Charlie Hebdo on _Der Ring_.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

superhorn said:


> Jay Hunter Morris as Siegfried was a real guy ,not a caricature , and a slimmed down Deborah Voigt was genuinely good -looking as Brunnhilde .


shame about their singing though, especially Morris' whose voice sounds more appropriate for a Niebelung than Siegfried.


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

sharik said:


> hmm.. not really.
> 
> maybe she's a paid troll hired to do a Charlie Hebdo on _Der Ring_.


At least nobody's going to try and kill her for freely expressing whatever she wishes.

Er, well she's already passed so I suppose that would be hard. But if she wasn't... You get my point.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

Dedalus said:


> At least nobody's going to try and kill her for freely expressing whatever she wishes.


freely poking fun at someone or something?.. no such freedom exists; making mockery is a crime.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I don't take the Ring seriously but then I don't take opera too seriously. It's not a medium in that you have to suspend disbelief and so you can't start off by being too serious or literal about it. As a previous poster has said, if I worry too much about it 'making sense' I won't watch too much of it. I'm the same with Star Wars, Lord of the Rings and fantasy in general. It is great entertainment but I don't take it too seriously. But that's me. Others I know express different opinions which they are of course entitled to. But that's the way I enjoy it.
Like the Rugby World Cup. I'll be cheering on England but if they lose it's not the end of the world. For some it will be but I don't take it too seriously!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> *I don't take the Ring seriously* but then *I don't take opera too seriously...* *you can't start off by being too serious* or literal about it...if I worry too much about it 'making sense' I won't watch too much of it. I'm the same with Star Wars, Lord of the Rings and fantasy in general. It is great entertainment but *I don't take it too seriously*...Like the Rugby World Cup. I'll be cheering on England but if they lose it's not the end of the world. For some it will be but *I don't take it too seriously!*


Hey, bud! Thanks a million for repeating that so many times so that we'd all get it, especially in posts about Wagner where so many of us are in mortal danger of taking our interest too seriously. I doubt that most of us ever considered comparing the _Ring of the Nibelung_ to the World Cup. Wow...! But now that you mention it, thinking that art ought to enlarge our sense of what it is to be human, or other high-falutin' stuff like that there, is a strain on the old bean. Thanks to you we can all just sit back now, let out a rugby cheer and maybe crack a good fart or two, and reeee - lax!

:tiphat:


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Hey, bud! Thanks a million for repeating that so many times so that we'd all get it, especially in posts about Wagner where so many of us are in mortal danger of taking our interest too seriously. I doubt that most of us ever considered comparing the _Ring of the Nibelung_ to the World Cup. Wow...! But now that you mention it, thinking that art ought to enlarge our sense of what it is to be human, or other high-falutin' stuff like that there, is a strain on the old bean. Thanks to you we can all just sit back now, let out a rugby cheer and maybe crack a good fart or two, and reeee - lax!
> :tiphat:


Wagner is as Valhallan as it gets.

In my experience, False Religion is always threatened by True Religion.

But hey, Beauty is its own excuse.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

One problem Wagner set was not just the enormous musical demands but also the staging of this fantasy. Part of the reason Wieland Wagner turned down the Appian way was that he realised his grandfather's conceptions were so difficult to realise on stage. He preferred static productions with much of the stage effects suggested by incredibly imaginative lighting effects. Unfortunately all of the snippets handed down to us are in black and white which vitiates Wielands intentions. 
Directors like Lepage who seek to be more literal risk the ridiculous. I thought the Valkyries ride was fun - they looked as if they were actually enjoying themselves - but I've had people watch it and dissolve into laughter. Perhaps if more CGI effects - LOTR style - were introduced, Wagner's demands could be greater realised. Georg Solti said in his memoirs that the Ring was impossible to stage from a vocal point of view. I also see problems from the production dide. I have the Kupfner / Bayreuth Ring on DVD which is a pretty good attempt but fell short in completely realising Wagner's conception. Mnd you, what is going on at Bayreuth at the moment - crocs and all eating Woodbird - how can you take it seriously? It would better for the memory of Wagner's art to boot the now pretty untalented and noxious family out of Bayreuth and put in people of good sense.


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

Speaking of which, my copy of The Wagner Clan that I ordered back in August finally showed up today. Sheesh. Anyway, going to take a look at this reprehensible bunch.


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## FLighT (Mar 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> What's wonderful about art is that it _makes more sense_ than real life.
> 
> How much "sense" did yesterday make for you? What did you do all day? The same old things, most likely. You woke up, you showered, you ate, you drove to work, you sat a computer, you came home, you ate again, you talked about work or money or the stupid Congress, you watched or read or listened to something, you went to bed...Just like the day before, and the day before that. Well, what "sense" is there in that? Life is generally too sensible to make sense - at least when it isn't actually senseless.
> 
> ...


I saw the Ring cycle in Washington DC years ago in Gunther Schneider-Siemssen's production (second week Jesus Lopez Cobos conducting), and even with a day off in between each opera the demands placed on the singers, orchestra, conductor and audience are monumental. Still, it was for me the most extraordinary musical experience (among many over 50 years) I ever attended. And it took months of revisiting it in my memory to understand all that I took in, and see it's inter- relationships in the light of my everyday life. It's impact still overwhelms me to this day.

Just 2 of many visual moments from the production burned in my memory:

At the end of Act 2 Walkure, and in a breech perhaps of strict story line, Siegmund doesn't expire until after he has exchanged a wordless glance with Wotan and recognizes his father. This holds particular meaning for me.

And, the opening stage setting of Rheingold with the Time Tunnel shows a scene with the stage completely covered by one giant white sheet draped over, I think, all of the characters to appear over the course of the 4 operas, like an attic with sheets draped on everything to keep the dust off. This morphed very effectively into the bottom of the Rhine during the opening bars of music with Rhine Maidens and Alberich. At the closing bars of Gotterdammerung as the Rhine overflows, the sheet/water flows from the back of the stage to the front and settles in the same position as the opening scene in Rheingold. The end is the beginning, life repeating itself over and over.

Yes, you make perfect sense to me, I believe I catch you drift.


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

So does that mean we can stop worrying about whether Il Trovatore makes sense?

(No, actually, I don't think we can ever stop worrying about that... never mind, carry on.)


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

graziesignore said:


> So does that mean we can stop worrying about whether Il Trovatore makes sense?
> 
> (No, actually, I don't think we can ever stop worrying about that... never mind, carry on.)


I don't give a hang about troubadors, poisoned rings, gypsy blacksmiths, and unwritten and optional yet obligatory and frequently transposed high Cs, but barbecued babies keep me up at night.


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## ma7730 (Jun 8, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I don't give a hang about troubadours, poisoned rings, gypsy blacksmiths, and unwritten and optional yet obligatory and frequently transposed high Cs, but barbecued babies keep me up at night.


Yeah, almost as good as a knight being pulled along by a swan... 
In all seriousness, though, _Trovatore_ is a little ridiculous, I'm surprised it's performed so often.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

For me the key to opera is the music.

As far as the _Ring_ I love _Götterdämmerung_. The rest of the cycle leaves me kind of cold. Maybe one day I will get the rest if it. 

I have no idea what is going on when I listen to it. They could be singing about a rugby match. For me the music is great.

Why? I don't know and I don't care.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Hmmm. . . . I thought the Appian way was in Italy ! LOL !!!


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

There are plenty of people who dismiss The Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, Harry Potter, and other fantasy as silly, even if these specific series maintain a lot of popularity.

I am not particularly worried about what sense The Ring makes, but I really enjoy discussing it. I find it fascinating. And it makes perfect sense to do so on a message board about opera.

I find my approach to opera is very much looking at the whole work, how everything works together. I generally have a hard time not analyzing the piece, whether it's a book, a film, or an opera. It doesn't have to be perfect to be enjoyable, but there are lines. And everyone is going to draw them differently.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

There's plenty in life that does not make sense from politics to quantum mechanics. The Ring makes general sense to me and has never felt problematic while I watch it. Mostly the music is so wonderful that I wouldn't particularly care if I felt there were serious problems. Plenty of fantasy and science fiction works have enormous issues, but we can simply accept (i.e. ignore) those issues and focus on the _important or relevant_ parts of the works. So too in opera. The first time I saw Cosi fan tutti I found the sexism unpleasant, but it's a 1700s farce with sublime music so why worry?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

gardibolt said:


> Speaking of which, my copy of The Wagner Clan that I ordered back in August finally showed up today. Sheesh. Anyway, going to take a look at this reprehensible bunch.


It really is a good read.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

superhorn said:


> Hmmm. . . . I thought the Appian way was in Italy ! LOL !!!


It was at Bayreuth actually! :lol:

One example:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

mountmccabe said:


> *There are plenty of people who dismiss The Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, Harry Potter, *and other fantasy as silly, even if these specific series maintain a lot of popularity.
> 
> I am not particularly worried about what sense The Ring makes, but I really enjoy discussing it. I find it fascinating. And it makes perfect sense to do so on a message board about opera.
> 
> I find my approach to opera is very much looking at the whole work, how everything works together. I generally have a hard time not analyzing the piece, whether it's a book, a film, or an opera. It doesn't have to be perfect to be enjoyable, but there are lines. And everyone is going to draw them differently.


They are not necessarily silly but they are not real life. As in John Ford's Stagecoach when someone asked him, "Why didn't the Indians just shoot the horses?" Ford replied, "Because that would have been the end of the movie!" I find Westerns hugely entertaining but they are not real life. Same with opera. Most opera is escapism - nothing wrong with this. But it's not real. Too say that an unreal art form makes more sense than real life is surely a contradiction. We might prefer it to real life but maybe that's because we don't find things in real life that satisfy us. I love opera but there are things in real life I find more satisfying. Like my grandchildren on a good day!


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## anmhe (Feb 10, 2015)

The Ring Cycle has always made sense to me, but (as I have said in other threads) the faults are in the characters. The downfall of that world was bigger than Siegfried being stabbed in the back. It's about a world that needs to be thrown away because it is a corrupt one where people betray their own self and family because they will not acknowledge and heed the greater good (among many reasons).


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I don't give a hang about troubadors, poisoned rings, gypsy blacksmiths, and unwritten and optional yet obligatory and frequently transposed high Cs, but barbecued babies keep me up at night.


Its the infectious 'singing' that keeps me up all night. There's so much great singing that I can never get it out of my head.

The barbecued babies are 'let-them-eat-cake' incidental.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

DavidA said:


> They are not necessarily silly but they are not real life. As in John Ford's Stagecoach when someone asked him, "Why didn't the Indians just shoot the horses?" Ford replied, "Because that would have been the end of the movie!" I find Westerns hugely entertaining but they are not real life. Same with opera. Most opera is escapism - nothing wrong with this. But it's not real. Too say that an unreal art form makes more sense than real life is surely a contradiction. We might prefer it to real life but maybe that's because we don't find things in real life that satisfy us. I love opera but there are things in real life I find more satisfying. Like my grandchildren on a good day!


Which of course is what mythology 'is': Whether its Valhallan bridges and talking dragons- or people who can live to be over nine-hundred years old and walking-talking snakes.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Its the infectious 'singing' that keeps me up all night. There's so much great singing that I can never get it out of my head.
> 
> The barbecued babies are 'let-them-eat-cake' incidental.


Barbecued baby and cake is poor menu planning, babycakes.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Barbecued baby and cake is poor menu planning, babycakes.


Not if I'm on the menu.

_;D_


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Not if I'm on the menu.
> 
> _;D_


(Just pull me down when I start dancing on the table.)


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

sharik said:


> shame about their singing though, especially Morris' whose voice sounds more appropriate for a Niebelung than Siegfried.


Ouch. Not wrong, though, unfortunately. I really wanted to like his performance since the story of the understudy catapulting to stardom after taking the role last minute is always such a juicy one, but between Voigt and Morris, I fast forwarded most of Siegfried and practically all of Gotterdammerung.


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## solkorset (May 26, 2011)

gardibolt said:


> Speaking of which, my copy of The Wagner Clan that I ordered back in August finally showed up today. Sheesh. Anyway, going to take a look at this reprehensible bunch.


They are Germany's royal family, don't you know?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

solkorset said:


> They are Germany's royal family, don't you know?


:lol: ..................


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Which of course is what mythology 'is': Whether its Valhallan bridges and talking dragons- or people who can live to be over nine-hundred years old and walking-talking snakes.


"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of truth..." (Professor Tolkien)


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Is opera supposed to make sense? I mean, who thinks that the girls in Cosi would have been fooled? Who think Zauberflote makes sense, apart, perhaps, to freemasons. Would Leonore really have been able to remain in disguise close up? Do knights really arrive in boats drawn by swans? And we haven't even come to Italian opera yet! Opera does not demand to be taken seriously - just enjoyed !


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Is opera supposed to make sense? I mean, who thinks that the girls in Cosi would have been fooled? Who think Zauberflote makes sense, apart, perhaps, to freemasons. Would Leonore really have been able to remain in disguise close up? And we haven't even come to Italian opera yet!


I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Lots of narratives have less than verisimilitude-value to them.

_Cosi_ could have had characters who lived to be over nine-hundred old, fire that refuses to burn, water that runs uphill, and a flat-earth cosmology.

Thank Goddess its not 'that' ridiculous.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> I wouldn't worry about it too much.
> 
> Lots of narratives have less than verisimilitude-value to them.
> 
> ...


Not to mention talking serpents, rods turning into serpents, frogs raining from the sky, the sun standing still, stone walls collapsing at the blast of a horn, women becoming pregnant with demigods by parthenogenesis, conversations with the Devil, walking on water...

But why go on? Opera isn't real life, the way stuff like that is.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

^ All these things make sense - unless one takes them literally, that is.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

SiegendesLicht said:


> ^ All these things make sense - unless one takes them literally, that is.


Well, talking snakes make some kind of sense (I've met a few), but I'm having a tough time with those frogs.

Wiki supplies the following:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rain_of_animals


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Well, talking snakes make some kind of sense (I've met a few), but I'm having a tough time with those frogs.
> Wiki supplies the following:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rain_of_animals


Well, the inspiration of the fable depends on the ignorance of the gentleman reading it.

- I fear your out of luck, Lord Woodduck.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

But the Ring makes perfect sense!

At least to anyone with ears to hear.

N.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

The Conte said:


> But the Ring makes perfect sense!
> 
> At least to anyone with ears to hear.
> 
> N.












Well, it makes sense to 'me'- fierce blonde Valkyries on winged steeds flying into the thick of battle.

- I'm in.


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