# Help on Brandenburg Concertos for an aging hippy



## sigsky (Feb 10, 2016)

I enjoy classical music from time to time but never especially made an effort to learn anything about it. I built my collection through a record club in the 60's and 70's choosing randomly from famous composers and focusing mostly on symphonies. I have no taste for opera. My favorite symphony is Schubert's 2nd which may reveal a lot. I have a special place in my heart for the Brandenburg
Concertos which lulled me to sleep many a night. The version I have is vinyl, Hermann Scherchen conducting musicians of the Vienna State Opera Orchestra recorded sometime around 1960.

Recently I thought I should add some classical music to my digital collection for car and audio player and my first thought was the Brandenburg Concertos. I assumed that I could easily find a version as good or better than the one I am familiar with. There are lots of places where you can sample digital music, but to my surprise, the versions I've encountered sound like someone is in a hurry to get it over with.

Of course there are a bunch of versions to choose from but I encountered Marriner conducting Academy of St Martin-in-the-Fields which got some kudos so I will use it to compare. Concerto 2 is 11:58 for Marriner vs 13:51 for Scherchen, Concerto 3 is 12:14 vs 14:51, Concerto 4 is 15:51 vs 20:37, Concerto 5 is 18:31 vs 24:17, Concerto 6 is 17:32 vs 19:40. The differences are, to me, remarkable.

I have listened to another version, Savall (Le Concert des Nations), which has similar differences. 

Ages ago, I tried to learn piano, and I thought the sheet music pretty much dictated tempo as well as everything else. So why wouldn't all serious renditions be about the same length? All I can conclude is that it is similar to the electronic and acoustical versions of Eric Clapton's "Layla".

So, should I stick with Scherchen? I know the CD exists, not sure about digital. Or just accept an up-tempo version?

And what would Johann Sebastian think? What is the "authentic" rendition?

I'm guessing this is pretty old subject matter but I would be interested in thoughts from more knowledgeable people.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I recommend the English Concert set directed by Trevor Pinnock. Very stylish and energetic!

Good luck and welcome to Talk Classical.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Some of the movements of the Brandenburgs have no tempo markings. Even if they did, there is room for interpretation. For some Classical works, conductors will often skip repeats, which shortens a work.

Add: Variations across works will usually be larger for Bach than for later composers. 

And I like Pinnock as well, but he may sound rushed to you.


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## Jeffrey Smith (Jan 2, 2016)

Energetic performances are more common now than in earlier years, so you may indeed want to try an older recording. I like the energertic style: Goebel/Musica Antiqua Koln, Gardiner/English Baroque Soloists, Cafe Zimmerman are my top three.

You may want to branch out to similar but different by Bach: the Ouvertures or Orchestral Suites. My favorite there is the Freiburger Baroque Orchestral.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Scherchen is still a pretty respectable recording though. I have to admit that even though I'm generally more into recordings like Pinnock's with this kind of music, Scherchen continues to be a fixture in my listening sessions of these pieces.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Jeffrey Smith said:


> Energetic performances are more common now than in earlier years, so you may indeed want to try an older recording. I like the energertic style: Goebel/Musica Antiqua Koln, Gardiner/English Baroque Soloists, Cafe Zimmerman are my top three.
> 
> You may want to branch out to similar but different by Bach: the Ouvertures or Orchestral Suites. My favorite there is the Freiburger Baroque Orchestral.


I agree entirely. 

It may take some getting used to if the OP prefers a modern orchestra version.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

I personally am a big fan of this recording: http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Brandenburg-Concertos-Nos-1/dp/B0031B7ES6

But all the above suggestions that I've heard are good too.

Really, the only thing to do is choose what you personally enjoy the most.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Neville Marriner's recordings of the Brandenburg's are quite solid. Of all those I've heard those I would recommend most are:

Rinaldo Alessandrini and Concerto Italiano:










Masaaki Suzuki and the Collegium Japan:










Jordi Savall and Le Concert des Nations:










and Jeanne Lamon and Tafelmusik Baroque:










Any one of these is a fine performance... among the best. What you might need to consider in exploring classical music is that we often get hooked on the first performance we hear/own of a given work so that this becomes the standard by which we measure other performances. Yet this first recording may not be the "best"... indeed, we might need to recognize there almost never is a single "best" performance.

Like yourself the Brandenburgs were one of my first loves in classical music. The recording I owned was of the Wurttemberg Chamber Orchestra:










When I first sought out recordings on CD, this particular recording was out of print and I was initially dissatisfied with the various alternative versions I heard. With time and experience of listening to any number of other recordings I came to realize that the WCO version was far from being the "best" while also appreciating the variety of interpretations available.

If you have access to Spotify of some such online streaming service... or even YouTube... give a listen to a number of recordings and go with the one you like best.

As you gain further experience in classical music you will come to recognize preferences for certain conductors, ensembles, orchestras, and soloists.


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## Lyricus (Dec 11, 2015)

isorhythm said:


> I personally am a big fan of this recording: http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Brandenburg-Concertos-Nos-1/dp/B0031B7ES6
> 
> But all the above suggestions that I've heard are good too.
> 
> Really, the only thing to do is choose what you personally enjoy the most.


I second this suggestion. The Akademie does good stuff. Then again, I'm a quasi-purist. You, sigksy, seem more into something authentic, so this or perhaps either Pinnock or Lamon might be good places to start.


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## sigsky (Feb 10, 2016)

Thanks for all the help. I will attempt to listen to all of these and will use Concerto No. 3 (my personal favorite) to decide which I like best.

No comments about Bach's intent? Which version would he prefer. On the other hand I suppose there is no way to know and it probably doesn't matter anyway.

Thanks again


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

sigsky said:


> No comments about Bach's intent? Which version would he prefer. On the other hand I suppose there is no way to know and it probably doesn't matter anyway.
> 
> Thanks again


Bach probably would have favored the more recent, brisker recordings. The argument is that the old school recordings (like Scherchen) are heavily influenced by Romantic Era music, which JSB never heard.

Then again, he lived in a time when performers were given more latitude with interpretations.

Also, you don't have the same ears as Bach's audiences. You've heard so much intervening music (Classical or otherwise), you'll never know what it sounded like to them.

Lastly, if you want, read this (discussions of recordings at bottom):

http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics2/brandenburg.html


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

The Scherchen versions are available on CD or MP3 pretty readily. Are you searching for a new favorite version?


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

It´s very nice to hear Scherchen mentioned & I can be a fan of him. Concerning the Brandenburgs, my favourites - and with better sound experience of course - are the *Max Pommer *(several labels) and the *Haydon Clark* sets (brilliant classics & Collins label (I have about 9 sets but don´t know them all in depth. I have also owned the Scherchen set).

Pommer isn´t generally on the slow side, but the performances have an airy, poetic quality different from a lot of other modern HIP recordings, IMO. His 1st Concerto has an unusual way of doing the fanfares, but I like it very much. Haydon Clark isn´t slow.

For slow tempi, there´s a an old DG *Karajan* set, and a *Klemperer/EMI *set too.


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## Markbridge (Sep 28, 2014)

I came of age when HIP (Historical Informed Performances) was becoming popular, the '70s. Those performances helped to shape my view of baroque music, however, I never really came to enjoy the sound of gut strings violins. Basically, I enjoy modern strings that perform in the HIP style. Marriner and Richter are favorites, although I do enjoy Pinnock and Suzuki as well. The Brandenburgs have a favorite of mine since I first got into classical music (back in the Dark Ages). Also enjoy the Orchestral Suites and his harpsichord concertos.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

sigsky said:


> I enjoy classical music from time to time but never especially made an effort to learn anything about it. I built my collection through a record club in the 60's and 70's choosing randomly from famous composers and focusing mostly on symphonies. I have no taste for opera. My favorite symphony is Schubert's 2nd which may reveal a lot. I have a special place in my heart for the Brandenburg
> Concertos which lulled me to sleep many a night. The version I have is vinyl, Hermann Scherchen conducting musicians of the Vienna State Opera Orchestra recorded sometime around 1960.
> 
> Recently I thought I should add some classical music to my digital collection for car and audio player and my first thought was the Brandenburg Concertos. I assumed that I could easily find a version as good or better than the one I am familiar with. There are lots of places where you can sample digital music, but to my surprise, the versions I've encountered sound like someone is in a hurry to get it over with.
> ...


I don't think that Scherchen's recording with VSO is particularly special.

You want something that's not too fast? Then I think you should try Richard Egarr, or Kuijken'/Petite Bande last recording.

If you want a orchestra with modern instruments, then maybe Munchinger is the one to go for.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

GreenMamba said:


> Bach probably would have favored the more recent, brisker recordings.


Any evidence for this?


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Mandryka said:


> Any evidence for this?


No hard evidence, just that it seems closer to the way he would have heard it. But who knows, maybe he'd like the more romantic interpretations?


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## AndorFoldes (Aug 25, 2012)

sigsky said:


> I assumed that I could easily find a version as good or better than the one I am familiar with. There are lots of places where you can sample digital music, but to my surprise, the versions I've encountered sound like someone is in a hurry to get it over with.


This is an interesting subject. Sometimes, if a particular performance of a work is already engraved in your mind, it can be very difficult to find any other satisfying performance.

The difference between Scherchen and modern historically correct performances is huge, and could be almost insurmountable.

I would suggest that you, given that you can find it, buy the Scherchen, and then buy another modern performance that will give you a different perspective. Then you have a choice between listening to the familiar version or being more adventurous.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

A wonderful thing about the _Brandenburg_s is that they allow for quite a bit of latitude in interpretations -- tempos, instrument choices and timbres, ornamentations.... And they're really hard to mess up; the music is just that good.

Recordings of the _Brandenburg Concertos_ rank high on my list of works to collect, and I have several dozen versions. I tend to seek out those which have received good critical reviews, but I also purchase on the whim, interested in seeing what such and such a recording has to offer. One of the things I treasure most with Brandenburg One is the horn sound -- I like a brassy, natural horn tone. Yet, some recordings allow for great modern valve horns to sound good, too. Just as the piano can do a great job subbing for the harpsichord in the Fifth, when well played. There is just so much variety to be found within the works themselves and then from interpretation to interpretation that collecting different recordings of the concertos just makes a lot of sense to me. And I enjoy many of the versions I have, often for differing reasons.

The one I am listening to as I pen this note features Apollo's Fire, the Cleveland Baroque Orchestra on "period instruments", directed by Jeannette Sorrell. It's a goody, on AVIE AV2207, a two disc set presenting also the Dmn Violin Concerto with Elizabeth Wallfisch and a couple Harpsichord Concertos, BWV 1052 and 1056.










I bought the disc after hearing one of the Concertos on a public radio broadcast. I liked the sound of the instruments, especially those horns.

But I wouldn't want to live with just this one and I would miss my several dozen versions, which allow me to pick and choose and often be surprised by what I hear, as well as to do comparative listening to various interpretations of a work or just a particular movement.

If you like the _Brandenburg Concerto_s, I suggest you do not limit yourself to one or two versions only. There is much to explore, much to hear in these works, over a vast field of interpretations. You'll come to find favorites and not-so-favorites, but the experience is a worthy adventure.

By the way, I've also collected Vivaldi's _Four Seasons _concertos, but I stopped after acquiring a couple dozen simply because I didn't hear as much variety in the "stringy" sound of these works (compared to the brassy, keyboardy, woodwindy, _and_ stringy sound of the Bach pieces). But I remain open to trying a new recording that will get a great review, especially when the reviewer suggests the interpretation has something new to offer.


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## sigsky (Feb 10, 2016)

GreenMamba said:


> Lastly, if you want, read this (discussions of recordings at bottom):
> http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics2/brandenburg.html


Funny, I bumped into those notes yesterday, but couldn't find them again today. Got them now, must reading, thanks.


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## sigsky (Feb 10, 2016)

bharbeke said:


> The Scherchen versions are available on CD or MP3 pretty readily. Are you searching for a new favorite version?


Actually, I was looking for a digital version of Scherchen, but unable to find one, thought I could easily find something similar. Keep in mind, I had never heard of Scherchen. Anyway, that's how this got started. I say digital when I mean mp3 or flac, not CD.


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## sigsky (Feb 10, 2016)

Markbridge said:


> I came of age when HIP (Historical Informed Performances) was becoming popular


I kept running into that term HIP without a clue what it was. Still not sure exactly but I think I get the general idea.
I saw a YouTube video of the Freiburger Baroque Orchestral doing one of the concertos and showed a woman playing what I guess was a flute, but playing it more like a clarinet although it had holes rather than valves. Very strange but it sounded great and she was obviously enjoying herself.


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## sigsky (Feb 10, 2016)

AndorFoldes said:


> Sometimes, if a particular performance of a work is already engraved in your mind, it can be very difficult to find any other satisfying performance.
> The difference between Scherchen and modern historically correct performances is huge, and could be almost insurmountable.


That is right on target, but I am getting over it quickly. I have just had a small taste of what else is out there and am developing quite the hunger.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

sigsky said:


> I kept running into that term HIP without a clue what it was. Still not sure exactly but I think I get the general idea.
> I saw a YouTube video of the Freiburger Baroque Orchestral doing one of the concertos and showed a woman playing what I guess was a flute, but playing it more like a clarinet although it had holes rather than valves. Very strange but it sounded great and she was obviously enjoying herself.


That was most likely a Baroque oboe or a Baroque recorder (for concerto no.2).


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

There´s at least a digital Scherchen transfer mentioned here
http://www.archiphon.de/arde/catalog/products/scherchen/LP-pure-08_165-67_brandenburg-concerti.php


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

sigsky said:


> Actually, I was looking for a digital version of Scherchen, but unable to find one, thought I could easily find something similar. Keep in mind, I had never heard of Scherchen. Anyway, that's how this got started. I say digital when I mean mp3 or flac, not CD.


You can find his second recording, with the Paris orchestra, here. I think it's better than the one you have.

http://www.rediscovery.us/conductors2.html


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Ksksnxhx did slx z smxmxmx


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Kohbudlihut frmpf filot,

but anyway:

His Lugano Beethoven cycle, from late in his career, is actually often considered having HIP-before-HIP traits - the main drawback is the lack of rehearsal, resulting in poor coordination at times, and that they are pure live performances, so editing/polishing of them couldn´t take place.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

SONNET CLV said:


> But I wouldn't want to live with just this one and I would miss my several dozen versions, which allow me to pick and choose and often be surprised by what I hear, as well as to do comparative listening to various interpretations of a work or just a particular movement.
> 
> If you like the _Brandenburg Concerto_s, I suggest you do not limit yourself to one or two versions only. There is much to explore, much to hear in these works, over a vast field of interpretations. You'll come to find favorites and not-so-favorites, but the experience is a worthy adventure.


Yes, this is a crowded field. I also own several dozen versions, and the more I hear, the more difficult it becomes to advise others, because each recording has something new to offer, which makes it unique among the lot. So I would also suggest a listener with an interest in these works to acquire some different recordings already from the outset. By acquiring more than one version one also avoids the risk of identifying the recording with the work.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> Any evidence for this?


As is well known, Bach chose rather fast tempi, when he himself played, but of course this does not tell precisely how fast.

I would not be surprised, if he would find the nowadays preferred tempi a bit too fast, because often the music does not really unfold when taken that fast.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Some HIP Bach performances are absurdly fast to my ears, like comical circus music almost. The Alessandrini Brandenburg set for example.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

isorhythm said:


> Some HIP Bach performances are absurdly fast to my ears, like comical circus music almost. The Alessandrini Brandenburg set for example.


Sound agreement here. Bach's music is alive, but it's themes aren't flippant.


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## sigsky (Feb 10, 2016)

Mandryka said:


> You can find his second recording, with the Paris orchestra, here. I think it's better than the one you have.
> 
> http://www.rediscovery.us/conductors2.html


Nice find! It seems very close to the version I am used to. I probably wouldn't know the difference.
Let's see, $29.95 or free? Let me think about it.

Thanks!


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## Andolink (Oct 29, 2012)

The *Dunedin Consort* versions on Linn are the best I've heard. Tempos perfectly judged. Sharply etched ensemble playing without exaggeration. And, superbly recorded sound with excellent depth and perspective.


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## jcofer (Jan 23, 2016)

This might be the set you need. Definitely not HIP


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

I am a strong believer in the concept of an imprint version. Not for every work, but often for works we discover, love, and (thus) listen to frequently. The Scherchen version gives you pleasure. That's the point of music (or one of the main points). Stick with it. If you have a streaming service, you can try a more recent version as well from time to time. I like Pinnock.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

I guess it's too late to edit, so I should note that I made a mistake above - the Alessandrini is NOT the ridiculously fast version I was thinking of. It's actually quite reasonable.

I too am a believer in the imprint version concept, though there have been lots of exceptions.


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## sigsky (Feb 10, 2016)

Andolink said:


> The *Dunedin Consort* versions on Linn are the best I've heard. Tempos perfectly judged. Sharply etched ensemble playing without exaggeration. And, superbly recorded sound with excellent depth and perspective.
> 
> Whew, soooo many!


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## sigsky (Feb 10, 2016)

isorhythm said:


> I guess it's too late to edit, so I should note that I made a mistake above - the Alessandrini is NOT the ridiculously fast version I was thinking of. It's actually quite reasonable.
> 
> I too am a believer in the imprint version concept, though there have been lots of exceptions.


I actually heard Alessandrini recently, quite nice.


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

The set of Brandenburgs by Musica Orphica (in later editions of the Brilliant Bach box) is a terrific HIP rendition; it's lively and holds the interest from start to finish, and the recording is first-rate. By far the best thing in that giant box. I'm sure it's probably available separately as well.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

gardibolt said:


> The set of Brandenburgs by *Musica Orphica *(in later editions of the Brilliant Bach box) is a terrific HIP rendition; it's lively and holds the interest from start to finish, and the recording is first-rate. By far the best thing in that giant box. I'm sure it's probably available separately as well.


You surely mean Musica Amphion. Their Brandenburg's got mixed reviews. I am one of those, who finds them very interesting.

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Bio/Musica-Amphion.htm


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

jcofer said:


> This might be the set you need. Definitely not HIP
> 
> View attachment 81384


I do agree whit this one however, all the above suggestions that I've heard are good too.

Really, the only thing to do is choose what you personally enjoy the mos


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## bz3 (Oct 15, 2015)

Savall is probably my favorite HIP that I've heard but nobody has mentioned Klemperer so I feel compelled to plug it. Certainly takes his time about them but I think they're great for that approach. Generally I go for HIP-ish baroque but not always, and these pieces are plenty elastic enough to suit a less hurried style.


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

premont said:


> You surely mean Musica Amphion. Their Brandenburg's got mixed reviews. I am one of those, who finds them very interesting.
> 
> http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Bio/Musica-Amphion.htm


Yes, that will teach me to try to do these things from memory. Amphion.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

bz3 said:


> Savall is probably my favorite HIP that I've heard but nobody has mentioned *Klemperer* so I feel compelled to plug it. Certainly takes his time about them but I think they're great for that approach. Generally I go for HIP-ish baroque but not always, and these pieces are plenty elastic enough to suit a less hurried style.


He was mentioned earlier in the thread.


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## BillT (Nov 3, 2013)

Try getting stoned (you aging hippy, you) and listening. See if that makes a difference. It does for me. 

- Bill


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## bz3 (Oct 15, 2015)

joen_cph said:


> He was mentioned earlier in the thread.


And in bold print too... I second the recommendation then.


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