# Drifting towards rennaissance.. enlighten me...



## SPR (Nov 12, 2008)

My tastes have been trending towards earlier music. My first love is in the classical period , but I keep dabbling at the edges of Baroque... Handel, Corelli, Bach...

I am also fascinated with 'what came before'. For example - I believe Beethoven was uniquely positioned in history to expand on what was going on... having studied under Haydn, being a contemporary of Mozart and soon after Bach. This led me to be very interested in Beethovens predecessors rather than Beethoven himself.

I am not all that interested in vocal music (yet). I do understand the place spiritual and vocal music held at the time. The little bit of snooping I have done into Monteverdi and similar I keep bumping into quite a bit of vocal music. 

Any suggestions for instrumental rennaissance or early baroque music I might consider trying? I am particularly keen on multi-voiced instrumentation, harmony, melodic complexity, counterpoint... some of the things that really flourished in the classical period... and I dont know what I am in for with very early music.


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2010)

I am by no means an expert in this area, but I picked up the following CD at my local library, just out of curiosity:








This is instrumental music, not vocal. However, I would highly recommend some of the vocal works - I have sampled some excellent renaissance era vocal music on the Harmonia Mundi label - English church chants performed by the Orlando Consort, as well as works of Hildegaard von Bingen performed by Anonymous 4. You might want to explore the Terpsichores of Praetorius, though, if you only want instrumental.

Also, check here for some basic recommendations. http://www.classicalcdguide.com/eras/renaissance.htm


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## SPR (Nov 12, 2008)

Thank you for that.... I will look into those leads...


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Yes, I occasionally drift into music before Baroque too. Most of the time was really just to satisfy a musical curiosity - what did folks play and listen to "way back". The L'Oiseau-Lyre label has quite a few very interesting works. Many have been deleted but a relaunch of that label has seen several re-issues.

http://www.loiseaulyre.com/home.php


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## SPR (Nov 12, 2008)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Yes, I occasionally drift into music before Baroque too. Most of the time was really just to satisfy a musical curiosity - what did folks play and listen to "way back". The L'Oiseau-Lyre label has quite a few very interesting works. Many have been deleted but a relaunch of that label has seen several re-issues.
> 
> http://www.loiseaulyre.com/home.php


Nice Link.

'Renaissance Duets' (Nov 2008)
'My Lute Awakes', 'Couperin' (Sep 2007)
etc...

There are a few there that look very interesting... Thank you!


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2010)

One last recommendation:
I know you said no vocal music, but I would be remiss to not suggest Thomas Tallis' "Spem in alium" performed by The Tallis Scholars - 40 voices combine to perform beautiful contrapuntal music. Sometimes you wonder whether it is even voices producing the sound. It is only ~10 minutes long. Check it out.


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## Johnny (Mar 7, 2010)

What does "contrapuntal" mean? 

Counterpoint?


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## SPR (Nov 12, 2008)

DrMike said:


> One last recommendation:
> I know you said no vocal music, but I would be remiss to not suggest Thomas Tallis' "Spem in alium" performed by The Tallis Scholars - 40 voices combine to perform beautiful contrapuntal music. Sometimes you wonder whether it is even voices producing the sound. It is only ~10 minutes long. Check it out.


I know what you mean. Try these ladies on for size.... amazing....

(Bulgarian State Television Female vocal choir )

http://www.talkclassical.com/8391-bulgarian-state-television-female.html


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## SPR (Nov 12, 2008)

Johnny said:


> What does "contrapuntal" mean?
> 
> Counterpoint?


yes. see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterpoint


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## Johnny (Mar 7, 2010)

So, basically it's a term used to describe a piece that could be split into two or more pieces playing at once? 

I'm an extreme newbie, so apologies if I'm not making sense, but couldn't any harmony also be considered to be a form of counterpoint? Are harmony and counterpoint sort of along a spectrum? Either could technically be used to refer to either, but some are more "purely" one or the other?


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2010)

Johnny said:


> So, basically it's a term used to describe a piece that could be split into two or more pieces playing at once?
> 
> I'm an extreme newbie, so apologies if I'm not making sense, but couldn't any harmony also be considered to be a form of counterpoint? Are harmony and counterpoint sort of along a spectrum? Either could technically be used to refer to either, but some are more "purely" one or the other?


Bear with me - I am not a music expert. Counterpoint is not necessarily the ability to split the music into more than one piece. It is a style. You have two or more musical lines being played simultaneously that merge together into the larger work. As opposed to all components working towards the same harmony, you have independent "voices" that can potentially create a harmony together, but isn't necessary.

Listen to something like Bach's the Art of Fugue - a very exemplary example of counterpoint - and compare it to a Beethoven Symphony.


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## Johnny (Mar 7, 2010)

That didn't really answer my question.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2010)

Johnny said:


> That didn't really answer my question.


I don't know if I would say they are along the same spectrum. With counterpoint, you certainly can generate harmony (take a listen to Spem in alium, and you will notice that harmony is achieved quite frequently), but is not the goal, necessarily. You have various voices that, while playing different melodies, combine together in one piece, occasionally achieving harmony. Harmonic music, on the other hand, would have many voices combining together.

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but in the simplest terms I can think of, counterpoint is like singing a round (like 3 different people singing Row Row Row Your Boat, each starting at different times). In that simplest case, all 3 voices are singing the same melody, but at different times, so while they may at times harmonize, they don't need to, and yet they all combine together. Harmonic music would be like 4 voices singing in parts (alto, soprano, tenor, baritone, or some other combination) the same song, at the same time.

I'm not really sure how they could be on a spectrum, though.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Johnny said:


> That didn't really answer my question.


Listen to Bach's Brandenburg Concertos, for example. You have counterpoint from start to finish. Then read about it, and reflect upon what you have listened.

That would be better than trying to spoon feed a baby.


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## SPR (Nov 12, 2008)

Johnny said:


> So, basically it's a term used to describe a piece that could be split into two or more pieces playing at once?
> 
> I'm an extreme newbie, so apologies if I'm not making sense, but couldn't any harmony also be considered to be a form of counterpoint? Are harmony and counterpoint sort of along a spectrum? Either could technically be used to refer to either, but some are more "purely" one or the other?


well - harmony can simply be a second voice in the music playing the same melody... only for example a third higher. like this:










in comparison... look at this example that is in the wiki reference I sent previously. Note that the second voice in this bach fuge is not simply a duplicate melody, but one that is very different... but creates a harmonious and complimentary whole. It may or may not contain explicit note-by-note harmonies.










The brandenburgs are a good example as mentioned. Try Brandenburg Concerto #2 In F, BWV 1047 - 3. Allegro Assai... its one of my favorites.

Here is a MIDI sample of what it sounds like if you dont have one:

http://www.classicalmidiconnection.com/cmc/midiplay/playmidi.shtml?mid/bach/bbc2_3

what do you think?


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## SPR (Nov 12, 2008)

Johnny said:


> ...couldn't any harmony also be considered to be a form of counterpoint?...


yes, but counterpoint encompases a larger and broader meaning than strict melodic harmony, as shown above.


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## pipelare (Mar 14, 2010)

Just thought I'd add that, like you, I started out as an instrumental music-only kind of guy. However, to more thoroughly appreciate renaissance (and earlier!) music, you might want to open up to vocal music  My personal path from baroque instrumental to universal vocal was through Jordi Savall and company, FYI.


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## hocket (Feb 21, 2010)

As well as Paul O'Dette's amazing renditions of Dowland's lute music you might want to look at Davitt Moroney's Complete Keboard Works of William Byrd.

Purely instrumental work (that was witten down rather than improvised) only really becomes common at the end of the renaissance era and excluing vocal music is a bit like trying to find out about the age of Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven by only listening to music that doesn't have any instruments! (Any recommendations?) Certainly counterpoint is particularly prevalent in the vocal music of the time. For much of the period's music voices are the instruments and it might help to try and think of them as such rather than as 'singing' in the more conventional sense (a least to begin with).

Try these to get an idea:


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## hocket (Feb 21, 2010)

Here's a better example of Nicolas Gombert's style (If I'd known this, one of my favourite performances of his music, was on YouTube I'd have posted it yesterday instead -I don't seem to be able to edit that post anymore):


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## SPR (Nov 12, 2008)

man from porlock said:


> As well as Paul O'Dette's amazing renditions of Dowland's lute music you might want to look at Davitt Moroney's Complete Keboard Works of William Byrd.
> 
> Purely instrumental work (that was witten down rather than improvised) only really becomes common at the end of the renaissance era and excluing vocal music is a bit like trying to find out about the age of Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven by only listening to music that doesn't have any instruments! (Any recommendations?) Certainly counterpoint is particularly prevalent in the vocal music of the time. For much of the period's music voices are the instruments and it might help to try and think of them as such rather than as 'singing' in the more conventional sense (a least to begin with).
> 
> Try these to get an idea:


Excellent information, Thank you.


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2010)

SPR said:


> Excellent information, Thank you.


Definitely don't avoid the vocal music of the renaissance. Or any period, for that matter. Avoiding the choral pieces of the classical period would bypass masterpieces like Mozart's Requiem, or Beethoven's Missa Solemnis. For the romantic period, you would miss Ein deutsches Requiem (Brahms) and virtually all of Wagner (extending this to anything where voices are used). And Baroque without choral works is almost not worth listening to, if it meant no Handel's Messiah, or Bach's Passions and Masses.

Pick up some renaissance choral music, find a quiet room, play it and close your eyes. It is as inspiring as anything with instruments. My recommendation, again, for Spem in Alium by Tallis, makes an excellent piece to sample.


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## SPR (Nov 12, 2008)

DrMike.... yes, I know... and agree.

Choral music I do like indeed... and including some of what you mention. I went to a live Handels Messiah some years ago and it blew me out of my seat. Requiem is also stunningly impressive... the list goes on. Beethovens 'Choral' finale of course... one of my favorites.

However - to date I have just dabbled in it. I have struggled particularly with opera.. but I have not sat down with the libretto and really tried to seriously get into them yet. I am wondering if a video would help if it had subtitles. Listened to a few Mozart pieces... cosi fan tutte, figaro... couple others. Chanting.. havent got into it.. and I get weary of music centered around religion since I am not much of a religious person Im afraid. Ironically, I adore choir music like the Soweto Gospel Choir - who are simply jaw dropping.

Spem in Alium by Tallis. I will loook into that. If it is in latin I can almost certainly withstand it. ;-)


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## Toccata (Jun 13, 2009)

SPR said:


> DrMike.... yes, I know... and agree.
> 
> Choral music I do like indeed... and including some of what you mention. I went to a live Handels Messiah some years ago and it blew me out of my seat. Requiem is also stunningly impressive... the list goes on. Beethovens 'Choral' finale of course... one of my favorites.
> 
> ...


The Renaissance area is one that interests me greatly but I'm not going to make any recommendations as it's wide and varied, and I don't know quite what might interest you best of all.

Not intending to detract from the specific recommendations made so far, I would suggest that you might find it useful to consult a source on the best regarded composers. The _digitaldreamdoor_ website has a lot of relevant lists including one for greatest composers. The next step is to check out with a site like ArkivMusik on the the main or most popular works of each. Often the name of the work itself is enough to trigger an interest or put you off. For specific recommendations of the best recordings, I would normally look on places like Gramophone or the BBC's website where they report of classical CDs.

I have always found this overall procedure to be the best general way forward in terms of acquiring good advice on expanding one's CD library in the early stages of exploring uncharted classical music territory. After that, it's much easier as you can simply read up on the composers that interest you and look up their other main works. You don't need forums for any of this further investigation. In fact I find them to be a pretty poor substitute on the whole.


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## hocket (Feb 21, 2010)

*SPR wrote:*



> Spem in Alium by Tallis. I will loook into that. If it is in latin I can almost certainly withstand it. ;-)


Evidently you missed this thread from a couple of weeks ago. There are a pleny of excellent links there. I included one to my favourite version of Spem in Alium (whch many people find completely overwhelming when they first hear it -it features regularly on the BBC's 'Desert Island Discs' show and Terry Pratchett has even said that it's the music he'd like to die to!). You might find the films that I linked to interesting too:

http://www.talkclassical.com/8211-renaissance-recommendations.html

The thread also links to yet another similar discussion that might be of interest.

I hope this will not be too poor a substitute for you...


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## SPR (Nov 12, 2008)

again - good info... Thank you all!

Im going shopping.  Lets see what I find.....

(is this what you refer to Mr Porlock? http://www.amazon.com/Tallis-Latin-..._shvl_album_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1268925028&sr=301-1 )


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2010)

SPR said:


> again - good info... Thank you all!
> 
> Im going shopping.  Lets see what I find.....
> 
> (is this what you refer to Mr Porlock? http://www.amazon.com/Tallis-Latin-..._shvl_album_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1268925028&sr=301-1 )


I think that is the one he is talking about. I haven't heard that one yet. I have recordings by The Sixteen and The Tallis Scholars. It is an amazing work. I wouldn't imagine it would be hard to enjoy even if you are not religiously inclined. It is in Latin (although the Sixteen also have an English translation recording). I listened to it again just last night - heavenly. Listen to it with headphones on, and sit back and close your eyes.

Incidentally, Renaissance religious music is currently my fastest growing part of my collection. I really enjoy the Tallis Scholars' recordings. You might try some late renaissance works from the likes of Monteverdi. I am trying out two of his operas - L'Orfeo and L'incoronazione di Poppea.


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## hocket (Feb 21, 2010)

*SPR wrote:*



> is this what you refer to Mr Porlock? http://www.amazon.com/Tallis-Latin-C...25028&sr=301-1


Yeah, that's the one. It's a good introductory set. The versions of Suspice Quaeso and In Jejunio et Fletu are particularly good, as well as the Spem. There are of course many other good Tallis recordings but I think that gives you a decent sampler of material for a reasonable price. If you take to it I'd recommend the outstanding Chapelle du Roi recordings, or on a smaller scale (!) The Cardinall's Musick recorded an excellent disc of Tallis. I'm also a big fan of the Tallis Scholars' version of Spem too, although many people object to it's soprano heavy sound (the Tallis Scolars habitually transpose the music up, which can affect the balance sometimes). That's kicking around on YouTube as well if you want to give it a listen for comparison. I do favour the Tallis Scholars version of the Christmas Mass (Puer Natus), which is the best on the market IMO. Another version of the ubiquitous Spem is that by Magnificat, which undoubtedly has the best quality sound and really provides that 'in the round' feel.

PS: FWIW, I'm not remotely religiously inclined! I'm only in it for the music.


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2010)

man from porlock said:


> *SPR wrote:*
> 
> Yeah, that's the one. It's a good introductory set. The versions of Suspice Quaeso and In Jejunio et Fletu are particularly good, as well as the Spem. There are of course many other good Tallis recordings but I think that gives you a decent sampler of material for a reasonable price. If you take to it I'd recommend the outstanding Chapelle du Roi recordings, or on a smaller scale (!) The Cardinall's Musick recorded an excellent disc of Tallis. I'm also a big fan of the Tallis Scholars' version of Spem too, *although many people object to it's soprano heavy sound (the Tallis Scolars habitually transpose the music up, which can affect the balance sometimes)*. That's kicking around on YouTube as well if you want to give it a listen for comparison. I do favour the Tallis Scholars version of the Christmas Mass (Puer Natus), which is the best on the market IMO. Another version of the ubiquitous Spem is that by Magnificat, which undoubtedly has the best quality sound and really provides that 'in the round' feel.
> 
> PS: FWIW, I'm not remotely religiously inclined! I'm only in it for the music.


I didn't know that (although my knowledge of renaissance music is still in its infancy). Thanks for that information. I'll have to sample the Magnificat version, as well as the Puer Natus.


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## hocket (Feb 21, 2010)

*Dr Mike wrote:*



> Thanks for that information. I'll have to sample the Magnificat version, as well as the Puer Natus.


Don't get me wrong, The Tallis Scholars make superb recordings and are amazingly consistent. Peter Philips produces fantastic interpretations, and I think they take far more flack than they deserve; I dare say that's the price of success. There's no problem a lot of the time. However, when the music uses heavy bass the Tallis Scholars recordings tend to come up short. Things like Absterge Domine or The Lamentations should be much more resonant than the way the Tallis Scholars do them, and their version of Gaude Gloriosa, whilst very smooth and accomplished pales by comparison with the Taverner Consort's version (which has a clumsy entrance about a minute and a half in but is otherwise the best version IMHO). Like quite a few ensembles Philips's team perform a high version of In Jejunio et Fletu but whilst the version 'as written' is apparently very demanding to sing it is well worth hearing I can assure you! Versions by the Taverner Consort and Chapelle du Roi are excellent, as is the one by the Hilliard Ensemble (although it might make your speakers explode...).

Regarding Spem, I actually prefer the Tallis Scholars version to Magnificat's (it's my second favourite version), but the sound of the Magnificat rendition really is well worth hearing. The Tallis Scholars effort is the tightest IMO, really nailing every section, but just loses out for me to the Taverners' which nearly maches it in that respect and has better balance. Incidentally, Tessa Bonner is one of the sopranos on both of those versions (Taverners' and Scholars that is). Magnificat do the best version of The Lamentations of Jeremiah that I've heard though!

Anyway, none of these are perfect all of the time. Whilst I recommend the Taverner Consort disc as an introduction that gives a good selection and has a number of outstanding renditions, there are nonetheless quite a few tracks that I'd recommend hearing in other versions (Chapelle du Roi's in particular) where there's just one on a part and the polyphony is more precise and the overall sound is less 'watery'.


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## SPR (Nov 12, 2008)

I did pick up a couple of discs.... I like the Monteverdi one so far.  Will be sampling the Tallis Scholars tonight - that one looks very good.









Monteverdi Altri canti di Marte - Libri VII & VIII









2 CDs: Tallis Scholars Rennaissance Giants
Thomas Tallis: Spem In Alium
John Taverner: Western Wind Mass, 1.Gloria
John Taverner: Western Wind Mass, 2.Credo
John Taverner: Western Wind Mass, 3.Sanctus & Benedictus
John Taverner: Western Wind Mass, 4.Agnus Dei
Josquin Des Pres: Missa Pange Lingua, 1.Kyrie
Josquin Des Pres: Missa Pange Lingua, 2.Gloria
Josquin Des Pres: Missa Pange Lingua, 3.Credo
Josquin Des Pres: Missa Pange Lingua, 4.Sanctus & Benedictus
Josquin Des Pres: Missa Pange Lingua, 5.Agnus Dei
Palestrina: Missa Brevis, 1.Kyrie
Palestrina: Missa Brevis, 2.Gloria
Palestrina: Missa Brevis, 3.Credo
Palestrina: Missa Brevis, 4.Sanctus & Benedictus
Palestrina: Missa Brevis, 5.Agnus Dei
Byrd: Mass For Four Voices, 1.Kyrie
Byrd: Mass For Four Voices, 2.Gloria
Byrd: Mass For Four Voices, 3.Credo
Byrd: Mass For Four Voices, 4.Sanctus & Benedictus
Byrd: Mass For Four Voices, 5.Agnus Dei
Victoria: Requiem, 1.Introitus Requiem Aeternam
Victoria: Requiem, 2.Kyrie
Victoria: Requiem, 3.Graduale Requiem Aeternam
Victoria: Requiem, 4.Offertorium Domine, Lesu Christe
Victoria: Requiem, 5.Sanctus & Benedictus
Victoria: Requiem, 6.Agnus Dei
Victoria: Requiem, 7.Communio Lux Aeterna
Victoria: Requiem, 8.Responsorium Libera Me


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2010)

SPR said:


> I did pick up a couple of discs.... I like the Monteverdi one so far. Will be sampling the Tallis Scholars tonight - that one looks very good.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not familiar with that Monteverdi recording, but I have a few recordings by Christie, and they are very good quality. Regarding the Tallis Scholars album, I don't have that particular one, but I have their recordings of the Spem in Alium, Josquin's Missa Pange Lingua, and Palestrina's Missa Brevis. I enjoy them all. I'm most familiar with Monteverdi through his operas L'Orfeo and L'incoronazione di Poppea, as well as his Vespers. He kind of inhabits that realm of late renaissance/early baroque. The Tallis Scholars recording, though, should give you a very good idea whether you enjoy renaissance religious choral music. I hope you enjoy.


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## SPR (Nov 12, 2008)

yes - the Monteverdi disk shows (very much) the germ of classical music in it - its lovely actually. He must have been a genius to start doing what he did. 

The Tallis CD is a repackaging of their earier works. Sperm from 1985, Taverner from 1993 etc. I got it because it has Tallis and Byrd on it - 2 that I have been looking at. It might be a decent 'sampler' for someone like me. I usually shy away from samplers and the like, but this looks decent.


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2010)

SPR said:


> yes - the Monteverdi disk shows (very much) the germ of classical music in it - its lovely actually. He must have been a genius to start doing what he did.
> 
> The Tallis CD is a repackaging of their earier works. Sperm from 1985, Taverner from 1993 etc. I got it because it has Tallis and Byrd on it - 2 that I have been looking at. It might be a decent 'sampler' for someone like me. I usually shy away from samplers and the like, but this looks decent.


Better than a sampler. Samplers usually contain only single movements from a piece - this contains complete pieces. You don't simply get one movement from a mass, but the entire mass. Not the same as some worthless "Best of" album. What it does is gives a very good sampling of some of the more famous works from some of the better known renaissance composers.

Monteverdi was very mucha genius. His opera L'Orfeo is one of the first of the genre (I believe it is the third opera that we know of). The other one that I have, L'incoronazione di Poppea is interesting from the point that it came several years later, near the end of his life, and was quite different from his early opera, pushing the genre further. So I would say that, particularly in the opera genre, Monteverdi was a very important individual. Poppea was also pushing the envelope by departing from a libretto based on some mythological story, and using an historical event, where characters are portrayed not in idealistic heroic fashion, but very much human, and in the case of this particular play, just the opposite.

Anyways, I hope you enjoy it. I was surprised how renaissance masses caught on with me. I am religious, but not Catholic or Lutheran, so these formal masses have no particular personal relevance for me. And the fact that I don't speak Latin also plays a big factor. I listen to the voices more as musical instruments making different sounds, and less as singing specific words for me to consider.


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## SPR (Nov 12, 2008)

well.... after listening to both of those...

I have to say I find Monteverdi much more interesting than 5 different renditions of: Kyrie-Gloria-Credo-Sanctus Benedictus-Angus Dei... that differ in only small ways. How many times can you listen to _Gloria in excelsis Deo_ or _Sanctus, Sanctus, Sanctus_?

The singing and polyphonics are beautiful - but it got tedious fairly quickly simply through repetition. Tedious may be the wrong word.

I think I need to look for something with a bit more variety. Madrigals perhaps? The Talis Scholars CD is *very* good - I would recommend it to anyone... but I doubt I will need to get any more rennaissance mass music if it just this over and over again. Not sure what I expected.

Spem in Alium I am anjoying because... well... is isnt exactly the same thing. Again.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

SPR said:


> My tastes have been trending towards earlier music. My first love is in the classical period , but I keep dabbling at the edges of Baroque... Handel, Corelli, Bach...
> 
> I am also fascinated with 'what came before'. For example - I believe Beethoven was uniquely positioned in history to expand on what was going on... having studied under Haydn, being a contemporary of Mozart and soon after Bach. This led me to be very interested in Beethovens predecessors rather than Beethoven himself.
> 
> ...


Harmony, melodic complexity, counterpoint? Try Vivaldi, Telemann, Scarlatti, dare I say Palestrina and Verdi (to warm you up a bit to vocal works), Froberger, and Sammartini.

As for Sammartini, I think you will like his organ concertos quite a bit, and it is good Baroque exposure for you.

Vivaldi: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=CB568F8288741873

Telemann: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=080ED1B7BC19E5DD

Scarlatti: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=5661C64F0F712EEB
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=4890429997D4D622
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=375E8ED5235DFAE4

Palestrina: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=5BF6C8A6288092F4

Verdi: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=9E32C82FE7DCB6DB

Froberger: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=B8E9B382945CFB05

Sammartini: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=63027699FD7B75C7


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Now as for Rennaissance, names like Perotin, Jean Paul Paladin, Ockeghem, and maybe as far forwards into the Baroque period as Leopold Weiss (he can really warm you up to his time period and that which was before him).

Perotin: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=07CCD31574C1CD34

Paladin: 




Ockeghem: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=5FE17C06C33AFE14

Weiss: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=EB24FC8BFD4D816F


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2010)

SPR said:


> well.... after listening to both of those...
> 
> I have to say I find Monteverdi much more interesting than 5 different renditions of: Kyrie-Gloria-Credo-Sanctus Benedictus-Angus Dei... that differ in only small ways. How many times can you listen to _Gloria in excelsis Deo_ or _Sanctus, Sanctus, Sanctus_?
> 
> ...


Then you may want to go with more secular works, like the madrigals. As I recall, Monteverdi had several books of madrigals.

In addition, while a large portion of renaissance is choral, there certainly are instrumental works. Byrd wrote several works for keyboard - I know Davitt Moroney has a recording of Byrd's keyboard works performed (I believe) on harpsichord. In addition, Giovanni Gabrieli wrote instrumental works, especially works for brass, that I have been meaning to investigate. Michael Praetorius' Terpsichore might also interest you.


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## hocket (Feb 21, 2010)

*SPR wrote:*



> I have to say I find Monteverdi much more interesting than 5 different renditions of: Kyrie-Gloria-Credo-Sanctus Benedictus-Angus Dei... that differ in only small ways. How many times can you listen to Gloria in excelsis Deo or Sanctus, Sanctus, Sanctus?


I can sympathise. My first renaissance aquisition was a similar (although different) Tallis Scholars comp. Unfortunately these seem to be targeted at the very religious or for a 'New Age' audience, stressing the works' 'holiness' or their tranquility. They don't seem to be a very good introduction to the variety of music at all, really being more of a showcase for the neutered polyphony of the counter-reformation (Palestrina, Victoria). Whilst that can be very beautiful it tends to be a bit one-paced and perhaps a touch on the dull side. All the stuff on the disc's worth hearing but back to back is hardly inspiring. I think that some of the links I posted in the other thread to Mass parts by de la Rue and Brumel should give you an idea of how much more variety there is (also, you're right that Masses shouldn't be the be-all and end-all, much of the best music's is found in motets -it's really a rather pompous affectation of the classical music estalishment to focus on 'great works' that earlier music is being saddled with -as if length had anything to do with quality...cut the fat!). More music from the Netherlands, the musical heartlands of the age, would certainly be preferable (also the inclusion of Taverner's 'Western Wynde is a curious decision - the far more 'epic' Tibi Trinitas would seem a far more natural selection for a 'Greatest Hits' effort, especially as the Tallis Scholars do a cracking version of it).

If you're looking for a sampler I'd recommend one of the Orlando Consort's which are ace ('Food, Wine and Song', 'The Toledo Summit' or 'The Rose the Lily and the Whortleberry').

BTW, I really should've mentioned before that for instrumental music of the late 16th and early 17th centuries you really must look into Fretwork and Phantasm who perform consort music for viols superbly. Byrd, Dowland, Gibbons, Lawes etc. I think that the complete Byrd Consort Music (rather than Consort Songs) by Fretwork is out of print but you should find it easily enough if you explore other avenues! Phantasm's recording of Gibbons's Fantasias and In Nomines sounds amazing. Anyway, these two bands are the masters of this repertoire much as Savall is of the later French viol music.

Anyway, don't despair- you just made a bum purchase. Obviously there are plenty of 16th C madrigals, which are worth checking out, but in the long run you'll probably find them to lack variety far more than the religious stuff (Monteverdi's are another matter though). I have quite a lot of music from this period so if you want a recommendation for a specific composer, or whatever, let me know.


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## SPR (Nov 12, 2008)

M.F.Porlock...

Fantastic feedback. I do appreciate you taking the time for that - that is all very encouraging! Have no fear, I do not give up so easily - and your comments very much reflect what I was thinking...and where I am headed with this. Also - I am not as averse to vocal music as it may have seemed. I really quite liked some of the tracks on the Talis CD - but as I said - I was a little put off by 4 sets of versions of the same thing.

Again thank you.. I will take another stab at something and see what sticks... I've received a good number of tips in this thread... I just need to dive in and see what happens next.


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## hocket (Feb 21, 2010)

*SPR wrote:*



> I really quite liked some of the tracks on the Talis CD - but as I said - I was a little put off by 4 sets of versions of the same thing.


Yeah, I think everthing on the disc is actually really good, but unfortunately it is all rather similar and hardly the stuff to set the pulse racing. Well, at least you got one of the best versions of Spem in Alium which is probably worth the price of admission on it's own. Best of luck.


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