# Who is the Grieg of Sweden?



## TresPicos (Mar 21, 2009)

When I look at my neighboring countries Norway, Finland and Denmark, it seems that they all have a "national composer", someone with an iconic status. Grieg in Norway, Sibelius in Finland and, well, Carl Nielsen in Denmark. But I just cannot see any such icon in Swedish classical music history. Do I know "too much" (too many composers) about my own country, so to say, or is it that I know too little about the other Nordic countries? Or does Sweden lack such an icon?

So now I would like to know what it looks like from the outside. Who is the Grieg of Sweden? Is there one?


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## Rondo (Jul 11, 2007)

You may get some conflicting views on this, but two which spring to mind immediately for me are Pettersson and Alfvén.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

Back in the days of vinyl, Grieg and/or Sibelius short-pieces were most commonly twinned with the works of *Hugo Alfvén*. So, when thinking of "Swedish/national influence," I think of Alfvén, first.

I wrote a little more about Swedish composers back here... apologies for the tough-to-read color scheme... but I think you'll understand.


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## TresPicos (Mar 21, 2009)

Chi_town/Philly said:


> Back in the days of vinyl, Grieg and/or Sibelius short-pieces were most commonly twinned with the works of *Hugo Alfvén*. So, when thinking of "Swedish/national influence," I think of Alfvén, first.


I had forgotten about Alfvén. He is probably the most "Swedish" one, together with Peterson-Berger. But I don't feel that he overshadows his compatriots like Grieg or Sibelius do.

I grew up believing that Berwald was "the big one", I guess since they named a concert hall after him, but then I found out he was only one in the pack. Maybe that's Sweden for you, no one is allowed to grow too tall...



> I wrote a little more about Swedish composers back here... apologies for the tough-to-read color scheme... but I think you'll understand.


Interesting thread. And beautiful colors.


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## YsayeOp.27#6 (Dec 7, 2007)

Wilhelm Stenhammar, I think. Unlike Berwald, he could make a living out of composing and conducting, so he must have been famous on his time.


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## handlebar (Mar 19, 2009)

Both Stenhammer and Alfven qualify in my opinion. I only wish Stenhammer was a bit more well represented in the catalog.

Jim


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

I'm fond of Berwald. He's a bit simple-appearing for most, like Mozart doing his take on a Schubert-Brahms hybrid. Some compare him to Mendelssohn, but he seems to have more focus on the whole piece than Mendelssohn, who predicted soundtrack music with his use of localized themes.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

handlebar said:


> Both Stenhammer and Alfven qualify in my opinion. I only wish Stenhammer was a bit more well represented in the catalog.
> 
> Jim


There aren't hardly any Stenhammar recordings. I have noticed this too, Jim. Neeme Jarvi has recorded a good bit. I only have one recording of Stenhammar (of his piece "Serenade") and it's coupled with Grieg and Nielsen. ---- Sir Andrew Davis, Royal Stockholm Philharmonic, Apex


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## bdelykleon (May 21, 2009)

Conservationist said:


> Some compare him to Mendelssohn, but he seems to have more focus on the whole piece than Mendelssohn, who predicted soundtrack music with his use of localized themes.


What Mendelssohn are you talking about? Every single piece I know of him has an outstanding formal craft...


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

bdelykleon said:


> What Mendelssohn are you talking about? Every single piece I know of him has an outstanding formal craft...


Yes, I too, disagree with Conservationist. I love Mendelssohn. I mean one listen to Symphony No. 2 "Hymn of Praise" is all it took for me to be hooked on his music.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

I'd say Alfven. Alfven wrote in a Romantic/nationalist style much like Grieg. Tuneful and heavily influenced by folk music.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> I'd say Alfven. Alfven wrote in a Romantic/nationalist style much like Grieg. Tuneful and heavily influenced by folk music.


Have you ever heard Stenhammar, Tapkaara?


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

I know of Stenhammar, though I have not heard him.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> I know of Stenhammar, though I have not heard him.


You should here his piece called "Serenade." All I have to say is you'll really like it.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Mirror Image said:


> You should here his piece called "Serenade." All I have to say is you'll really like it.


I'll add Stenhammar to my already long list.


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## Yosser (May 29, 2009)

TresPicos said:


> When I look at my neighboring countries Norway, Finland and Denmark, it seems that they all have a "national composer", someone with an iconic status. Grieg in Norway, Sibelius in Finland and, well, Carl Nielsen in Denmark.


A couple of questions asked from a position of considerable ignorance and not intended to be offensive to anyone. Do Danes really regard Nielsen as a 'national composer'? Does Grieg really have 'iconic status' amongst Norwegians? Are Alfven, Stenhammer more substantial composers than, say, Stanford, or Parry or Sterndale-Bennett?

Not wishing to annoy any Grieg aficionados out there, but it seems to me that Sibelius is the only Scandinavian composer who genuinely merits 'iconic status'.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Yosser said:


> A couple of questions asked from a position of considerable ignorance and not intended to be offensive to anyone. Do Danes really regard Nielsen as a 'national composer'? Does Grieg really have 'iconic status' amongst Norwegians? Are Alfven, Stenhammer more substantial composers than, say, Stanford, or Parry or Sterndale-Bennett?
> 
> Not wishing to annoy any Grieg aficionados out there, but it seems to me that Sibelius is the only Scandinavian composer who genuinely merits 'iconic status'.


First of all, who outside of England has even listened to Stanford's or Parry's music besides a small legion of hardcore classical fans? Not that many. In fact, you and I might be the only ones on this forum who has even talked about Stanford. 

Grieg is a substantial composer even if he just wrote "Peer Gynt." How many times has his Piano Concerto been played? You don't have enough digits on your hand to give me this answer.

Do Danes regard Nielsen as a "national composer?" Yes, absolutely, in fact, there aren't many orchestras outside of Denmark that have even played Nielsen with the exception of NY Philharmonic, San Francisco Symphony...but these are US orchestras, so yes, the Danes hold Nielsen in very high regard and why wouldn't they. He forged a unique style that was entirely his own and contributed six incredible symphonies and three great concertos (violin, clarinet, flute) to the repertoire.

Stenhammar isn't that popular of a composer for reasons I'm not sure. He wasn't entirely an "original" composer per se, but he wrote some great works. Have you heard his piece "Serenade"? Great piece.

Anyway, I made my point.


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## bdelykleon (May 21, 2009)

What Yosser asked is not if Grieg or Nielsen are regarded as great composers, both surely are, but he only said that Sibelius has a far different standing regarding Finnish culture and history which is not at all comparable to Nielsen's role in danish history. I mean, Sibelius was revered in his own life as the greatest symbol of Finnish nationalism, no other composer, not to say Scandinavian composer achieved that. 

I'm not quite sure if there is a "Nielsen Park" in København...


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

bdelykleon said:


> What Yosser asked is not if Grieg or Nielsen are regarded as great composers, both surely are, but he only said that Sibelius has a far different standing regarding Finnish culture and history which is not at all comparable to Nielsen's role in danish history. I mean, Sibelius was revered in his own life as the greatest symbol of Finnish nationalism, no other composer, not to say Scandinavian composer achieved that.
> 
> I'm not quite sure if there is a "Nielsen Park" in København...


When I hear Sibelius, I don't hear Finland at all. I hear a composer who composed music. A deeper look into his music that he was a man that had many experiences that gave his music a unique characteristic, but this can be said about many composers. The experiences we have make us who we are.

I don't believe all this "National" garbage. I believe there are two kinds of composers: the first one is a composer, whose music I enjoy, and the second is a composer, whose music I don't enjoy.


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## bdelykleon (May 21, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> When I hear Sibelius, I don't hear Finland at all. I hear a composer who composed music. A deeper look into his music that he was a man that had many experiences that gave his music a unique characteristic, but this can be said about many composers. The experiences we have make us who we are.
> 
> I don't believe all this "National" garbage. I believe there are two kinds of composers: the first one is a composer, whose music I enjoy, and the second is a composer, whose music I don't enjoy.


Ok it is your view, but it is not about what Sibelius music means to us, but what to it means to Finland's nationalism and Finnish Pysché. Sibelius birthday was a national holiday even in his own life and he meant a lot to them...

Or do you find elsewhere monuments dedicated to composers like this:









Or like the Grove says:
(Sibelius is a) master of symphonic continuity and compressed, 'logical' musical structure, he grounded much of his music in his own conception of the Finnish national temperament. Throughout the 20th century Finland regarded him as a national hero and its most renowned artist.

What was asked was if Nielsen and Grieg meant that to Denmark or Norway. I'm not quite sure because they have other larger cultural symbols like Kierkegaard and Jakobsen in Denmark and Ibsen in Norway.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

bdelykleon said:


> Ok it is your view, but it is not about what Sibelius music means to us, but what to it means to Finland's nationalism and Finnish Pysché. Sibelius birthday was a national holiday even in his own life and he meant a lot to them...
> 
> Or do you find monuments dedicated to composers like this:
> 
> ...


"Us"? You mean yourself? I didn't know you spoke for everybody else. Since when did you become the International spokesperson for people all over the world?

I guess Denmark considers Nielsen and Norway considers Grieg chopped liver? Give me a break...


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## bdelykleon (May 21, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> "Us"? You mean yourself? I didn't know you spoke for everybody else. Since when did you become the International spokesperson for people all over the world?


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

My two cents:

I think, in the Nordic countries, no other composer has ever held such a national appreciation as Finland has for Sibelius.

Sibelius was revered as a national hero during his life and even to this day. But I think there is a special reason for that beyond the fact he was Finland's "voice in the world" and the Finnish musical ambassador and all of that. Sibelius was musically active during a time when Finland sought independence from Tsarist Russia. Finland was a Grand Duchy of Russia from 1809 until 1917. When Sibelius was coming into his own as a composer in the 1880s, he developed a very strong patriotism and was a proponent of the Fennoman movement, a nationalist movement who promoted Finnish culture, Finnish language and total independence from Russia.

Certainly, many of Sibelius's early works are on nationalist themes such as Finlandia, the Karelia Suite, Kullervo, etc. These artistic achievements were seen as a promotion of the Finnish cause, just like the visual art of Akseli Gallen-Kallela was. The music of Sibelius thus took on an "anthemic" quality and it was very inspirational to the Finnish independence movement, something the composer more or less approved of.

Of course, Finland did see independece of December 1917. Many believe that the music of Sibelius played a key role in Finland's liberation as it was so inspirational to the movement.

Today, there are Sibelius momuments in Helsinki, as well as the usual concert halls named after him as well as museums of where the composer was born, used to live, etc. Before the markka switched to the Euro, the image of Sibelius was also to be found on Finnish money! (Most countries only put past political leaders on their money!)

My point in all of this is that Sibelius played a patriotic role for the cause of Finnish idependence as opposed to just being the main musical spokesman/tour guide for his country, say in the essence of Grieg or Nielsen, who, as far as I know, did not have the "patriotic struggle" credentials that one finds in Sibelius. So, I think this solidifies Sibelius's stature as THE most iconic Nordic composer for his country, if such a thing even matters as far as the quality of his music is concerned.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> My two cents:
> 
> I think, in the Nordic countries, no other composer has ever held such a national appreciation as Finland has for Sibelius.
> 
> ...


In the end, this doesn't really matter or at least I don't think it does, what does matter, however, is the music, which there are clearly a lot of people who dislike Sibelius....especially around here.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Mirror Image said:


> clearly a lot of people who dislike Sibelius....especially around here.


Indeed seems to be the case.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> Indeed seems to be the case.


I don't know why. He's such a great composer. Man, he wrote some BEAUTIFUL MUSIC! Why do you think I created the thread "The I'm Addicted To Sibelius Thread."

I talked to somebody about an hour ago on here who said "Sibelius does nothing for them."

Whatever...at least there are some people who enjoy Sibelius on here, but they're few and far between. You, me, World Violist...we all need to stick together.


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## bdelykleon (May 21, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> In the end, this doesn't really matter or at least I don't think it does, what does matter, however, is the music, which there are clearly a lot of people who dislike Sibelius....especially around here.


I read in the Grove about Sibelius and finnish independence, it is a noble and fascinating story. So I decided to give him a go another time with the fifty symphony. It is not bad music, sounds well crafted, but it doesn't resonates in me. A pity, Tapkaara is so enthusiastic about this music, I would like to be thus. The only sibelian symphony I'm able to enjoy is the sixth.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

bdelykleon said:


> I read in the Grove about Sibelius and finnish independence, it is a noble and fascinating story. So I decided to give him a go another time with the fifty symphony. It is not bad music, sounds well crafted, but it doesn't resonates in me. A pity, Tapkaara is so enthusiastic about this music, I would like to be thus. The only sibelian symphony I'm able to enjoy is the sixth.


You see there you go. Not everybody digs the same things just like I don't dig a lot of composers you like. Nobody likes the same things.

I don't dislike you or think any less of you because you don't like someone I like. That doesn't bother me.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

bdelykleon said:


> I read in the Grove about Sibelius and finnish independence, it is a noble and fascinating story. So I decided to give him a go another time with the fifty symphony. It is not bad music, sounds well crafted, but it doesn't resonates in me. A pity, Tapkaara is so enthusiastic about this music, I would like to be thus. The only sibelian symphony I'm able to enjoy is the sixth.


Ha, well, I wish I could be enthusiastic about the 2nd Viennese School, but despite my best efforts, I can't break through into the idiom. Yet so many on this forum go gaga for that genre of music, and in the past, folks have tried to tell me I'm an idiot for not getting it.

Yes, I am very enthusiastic about Sibelius, but I have seen so many that are not. I really can't fault anyone who doesn't get him or like him. I have to remember that there are composers that I don't like whom others swear by. It's just how it is. Our brains are all wired so differently, so I cannot come down too hard on anyone who just simply has a different palette than I do.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> Ha, well, I wish I could be enthusiastic about the 2nd Viennese School, but despite my best efforts, I can't break through into the idiom. Yet so many on this forum go gaga for that genre of music, and in the past, folks have tried to tell me I'm an idiot for not getting it.
> 
> Yes, I am very enthusiastic about Sibelius, but I have seen so many that are not. I really can't fault anyone who doesn't get him or like him. I have to remember that there are composers that I don't like whom others swear by. It's just how it is. Our brains are all wired so differently, so I cannot come down too hard on anyone who just simply has a different palette than I do.


I will be giving the Second Viennese School a listen tomorrow. I have a recording of Karajan and the BPO performing some of Schoenberg's, Berg's, and Webern's music. I will give you my honest opinion after I have finished listening to it.

I own quite a few recordings of Schoenberg and have found some of it to be enjoyable like, for example, his "Chamber Symphonies," but it always baffles me why he chose to compose in that 12-tone style. As I mentioned many times, "Verklarte Nacht" is what I consider to be his greatest piece of music.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> My two cents:
> 
> I think, in the Nordic countries, no other composer has ever held such a national appreciation as Finland has for Sibelius.
> 
> ...


This is exactly the point I was about to bring up, it's all about politics. You bring up a good example with Sibelius. Sibelius no doubt is a very good composer, but would Fins have felt the need to make him into an icon if they hadn't had that particular period of struggle? Would Sibelius have felt the need to write Finlandia? I have no doubt Sibelius would still have been a very good composer (still influenced by music such as Beethoven and Tchaikovsky) in the classical tradition, he would still have composed very good symphonies. He might not have composed Finlandia but that's not too bad as while it's a decent piece it's not arguably as essential as other works of his anyway. Sibelius as an individual was talented and he would no doubt have found inspiration from something for his music.


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## Toccata (Jun 13, 2009)

TresPicos said:


> When I look at my neighboring countries Norway, Finland and Denmark, it seems that they all have a "national composer", someone with an iconic status. Grieg in Norway, Sibelius in Finland and, well, Carl Nielsen in Denmark. But I just cannot see any such icon in Swedish classical music history. Do I know "too much" (too many composers) about my own country, so to say, or is it that I know too little about the other Nordic countries? Or does Sweden lack such an icon?
> 
> So now I would like to know what it looks like from the outside. Who is the Grieg of Sweden? Is there one?


To answer your last question directly, I do not believe there is one.

I would say that Sweden is one of those European countries which has failed to hit the big-time in the world of classical music composers, at least as perceived by the world outside. Its most notable composers (Berwald, Stenhammer, Alfvén, Larsson, Pettersson) have produced some decent music that has a certain following, but I don't believe any of it is has achieved canonical status. None of these composers has a reputation anything like as big as the two most famous Scandinavian composers, Sibelius and Grieg, and to a lesser extent Nielsen.


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## TresPicos (Mar 21, 2009)

Toccata said:


> To answer your last question directly, I do not believe there is one.
> 
> I would say that Sweden is one of those European countries which has failed to hit the big-time in the world of classical music composers, at least as perceived by the world outside. Its most notable composers (Berwald, Stenhammer, Alfvén, Larsson, Pettersson) have produced some decent music that has a certain following, but I don't believe any of it is has achieved canonical status. None of these composers has a reputation anything like as big as the two most famous Scandinavian composers, Sibelius and Grieg, and to a lesser extent Nielsen.


If you would ask the average Norwegian to name a Norwegian composer or the average Finn to name a Finnish composer, it would be easy for them. But the average Swede would undoubtedly have to think for a while if asked to name a Swedish composer. Then, he might come up with Lars-Erik Larsson, because of Larsson's (relatively) immensely popular "Pastoral suite".


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

The more I think about this, the more I realize that there wasn't a composer to come out of Sweden that had the status of Grieg, Nielsen, or Sibelius.


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## Toccata (Jun 13, 2009)

TresPicos said:


> If you would ask the average Norwegian to name a Norwegian composer or the average Finn to name a Finnish composer, it would be easy for them. But the average Swede would undoubtedly have to think for a while if asked to name a Swedish composer. Then, he might come up with Lars-Erik Larsson, because of Larssons (relatively) immensely popular "Pastoral suite".


Exactly so. If the average Swede would have such trouble, think how much more difficulty those living outside Sweden would have, which was the main point of your original question.

There are other European countries which are in a similar predicament vis-a-vis lack of iconic classical composers: Portugal, Belgium, Netherlands come to mind, but there are probably a few others.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Mirror Image said:


> The more I think about this, the more I realize that there wasn't a composer to come out of Sweden that had the status of Grieg, Nielsen, or Sibelius.


I think that's true, though that is not a condemnation of Swedish composers. I guess it just so happens that, for political reasons...or any reason... no composer from that country captured the world's attention in ways that Finland, Norway and Denmark have.

What's especially interesting about that to me is that Sweden was traditionally the most influential Nordic country, so you'd think by virtue of their elevated international staus that they'd have an advantage in gettin their music out there.

MI...have you heard the music of Sweden's Ture Rangström. If you like Langgaard, I think you'd eat him up.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> MI...have you heard the music of Sweden's Ture Rangström.* If you like *Langgaard, I think you'd eat him up.


If I like Langgaard? Don't you mean since you like Langgaard? Look at my avatar and profile picture! I think I like Langgaard.  I did start a thread about him and bring him to the attention of many people on here.

Anyway, I own a box set of Rangstrom's symphonies on the CPO label. They are quite good, but I (obviously) don't put them up on the same level as Langgaard.


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## TresPicos (Mar 21, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> The more I think about this, the more I realize that there wasn't a composer to come out of Sweden that had the status of Grieg, Nielsen, or Sibelius.


If there was a measurement of how big a percentage a single composer gets out of "the total attention that country's classical music history/scene gets", I would say that Grieg and Sibelius would take a 70-80% share of their respective countries, and Nielsen perhaps 50%, but I doubt that any Swedish composer would reach 20%.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Mirror Image said:


> If I like Langgaard? Don't you mean since you like Langgaard? Look at my avatar and profile picture! I think I like Langgaard.  I did start a thread about him and bring him to the attention of many people on here.
> 
> Anyway, I own a box set of Rangstrom's symphonies on the CPO label. They are quite good, but I (obviously) don't put them up on the same level as Langgaard.


Well, of course you like Langaarrd!

Ah, so you have heard Rangström. He was a musical "upstart" in Sweden the way Langgaard was in Denmark, though, I think, Langgaard was certainly more crazy than Rangström.


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## TresPicos (Mar 21, 2009)

Toccata said:


> Exactly so. If the average Swede would have such trouble, think how much more difficulty those living outside Sweden would have, which was the main point of your original question.


True, of course, but the people in this forum hardly qualifies as average when it comes to interest in and knowledge of classical music, so it was interesting to hear your opinion. I didn't, at first, expect names like Alfvén and Stenhammar, for example. To me, none of them are greater than the other. Knowing of 50-100 or so Swedish composers, it all becomes a blur. So, it was also interesting that the blur pretty much _is _a blur, not just to me. 


> There are other European countries which are in a similar predicament vis-a-vis lack of iconic classical composers: Portugal, Belgium, Netherlands come to mind, but there are probably a few others.


Yeah, we're not alone. 

Belgium has Franck, of course, but everyone think he's French, so what good does that do?


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> Well, of course you like Langaarrd!
> 
> Ah, so you have heard Rangström. He was a musical "upstart" in Sweden the way Langgaard was in Denmark, though, I think, Langgaard was certainly more crazy than Rangström.


For me, there's just something truly special about a Langgaard piece. I'm not sure if it's in the harmonies, the melodies, but I've become such a big fan of his music.

Langgaard was a rising star in Germany having his first symphony premiered there, but much of Langgaard's life was spent fighting off and going against the Danish establishment. He certainly was a non-conformist and became quite resentful of Nielsen's fame. Interestingly enough, Nielsen actually taught Langgaard some lessons in counterpoint I believe when he was younger.

There interesting thing for me about Langgaard is how he kind of faded out and went into kind of a "hibernation" so to speak. He spent much of his later years as an cathedral organist in small town in Denmark.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Iceland's "iconic" composer is Leifs, though he is by no means a household name, not even among the classical intelligentsia.

I'd like to know who THE composer of Lithuania is...or of Belarus...or of Moldova...or of Albania...!

Indeed, Sweden is not alone.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> Iceland's "iconic" composer is Leifs, though he is by no means a household name, not even among the classical intelligentsia.
> 
> I'd like to know who THE composer of Lithuania is...or of Belarus...or of Moldova...or of Albania...!
> 
> Indeed, Sweden is not alone.


But didn't Leifs spend a lot of time in Germany? In fact, I think he lived in Nazi Germany during WWII didn't he? Many people didn't like him because they thought he was allied with the Nazis.

Just because a composer uses folk tunes of his/her home country doesn't make them an "iconic" composer. I doubt Leifs is viewed as Iceland's "composer."


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Mirror Image said:


> But didn't Leifs spend a lot of time in Germany? In fact, I think he lived in Nazi Germany during WWII didn't he? Many people didn't like him because they thought he was allied with the Nazis.
> 
> Just because a composer uses folk tunes of his/her home country doesn't make them an "iconic" composer. I doubt Leifs is viewed as Iceland's "composer."


Leifs _is _considered Iceland's composer as far as I can tell, and I've done more than an avergae amount of reading on him. A film was made about his life in the 1990s called Tears of Stone; I do not believe a film has been made to date on any other Icelandic composer.

This is not because of his use of folk aesthetics per se, but because he is more or less the ONLY composer from that country to reach any international reknown.

Leifs did spend time in Germany, but his music was mostly rejected there. At the premiere performance of his Organ Concerto in Germany, what was a packed house at the start was literally reduced to three or four people left in the audience by the time the piece ended. The idiom was just too strange. (The Nazis would have dissapproved of his style the smae way they dissaproved of Stravinsky and Schönberg.) Also, Leifs married a Jewish girl, so he was definitely not in the good graces of the Nazis after that. Also, Leifs was really disgusted by the ways the Nazi tried to "progagandize" Nordic myths, a subject that much of his music was written on. So, if anyone thinks he was somehow linked to the Nazi regime because of his time in Germany, they don't know the real story!


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> Leifs _is _considered Iceland's composer as far as I can tell, and I've done more than an avergae amount of reading on him. A film was made about his life in the 1990s called Tears of Stone; I do not believe a film has been made to date on any other Icelandic composer.
> 
> This is not because of his use of folk aesthetics per se, but because he is more or less the ONLY composer from that country to reach any international reknown.
> 
> Leifs did spend time in Germany, but his music was mostly rejected there. At the premiere performance of his Organ Concerto in Germany, what was a packed house at the start was literally reduced to three or four people left in the audience by the time the piece ended. The idiom was just too strange. (The Nazis would have dissapproved of his style the smae way they dissaproved of Stravinsky and Schönberg.) Also, Leifs married a Jewish girl, so he was definitely not in the good graces of the Nazis after that. Also, Leifs was really disgusted by the ways the Nazi tried to "progagandize" Nordic myths, a subject that much of his music was written on. So, if anyone thinks he was somehow linked to the Nazi regime because of his time in Germany, they don't know the real story!


This is very interesting. You've clearly done your research of Leifs, which I'm only familiar with one of his pieces "Saga Symphony." I wouldn't call him an internationally renowned composer though. He's far from it. There are people on this very forum who have never even heard of him.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Mirror Image said:


> This is very interesting. You've clearly done your research of Leifs, which I'm only familiar with one of his pieces "Saga Symphony." I wouldn't call him an internationally renowned composer though. He's far from it. There are people on this very forum who have never even heard of him.


I agree: though the best known Icelandic composer, he is not known very much in the broader sesne.


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## Yosser (May 29, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> Do Danes regard Nielsen as a "national composer?" Yes, absolutely.... Anyway, I made my point.


I suppose getting one's head on a 100 Kronor note has to be a mark of national respect so I concede the point. In fact I read in some thesis that Nielsen is regarded as having 'a cultural significance equivalent to Hans Christian Andersen', which I don't quite buy, but then I'm not Danish. The thesis claims that Nielsen is 'nationalistic' only in his songs not in his large scale works, and that the nationalist branding has damaged his image outside Denmark.

For reasons that have been detailed by others, I'd agree it's a bit unfair to compare any composer's national significance to Sibelius', which has sociological and political as well as musical components.

I do know Grieg's piano concerto is standard repertory, but I haven't the slightest idea why. If Grieg is regarded by Norwegians as a national composer (which, not being a Norwegian, I gladly concede to anyone who is) then it's surely for his delightful miniatures, not his extended compositions.

In musing about this thread, I tried to think of a Dutch composer of note, and failed to come up with any name at all. This is either my woeful ignorance, or a bit odd, considering that the Concertgebouw would be on most people's shortlist for the world's finest orchestra.


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## bdelykleon (May 21, 2009)

Yosser said:


> I tried to think of a Dutch composer of note, and failed to come up with any name at all.


Jan Pieterszoon van Sweelinck.


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## Yosser (May 29, 2009)

bdelykleon said:


> Jan Pieterszoon van Sweelinck.


Cudos, bd. You know your organ music. Do we have to go that far back?


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## bdelykleon (May 21, 2009)

Yosser said:


> Cudos, bd. You know your organ music. Do we have to go that far back?


Why back? The baroque is where the cool guys were.


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## TresPicos (Mar 21, 2009)

Yosser said:


> I do know Grieg's piano concerto is standard repertory, but I haven't the slightest idea why. If Grieg is regarded by Norwegians as a national composer (which, not being a Norwegian, I gladly concede to anyone who is) then it's surely for his delightful miniatures, not his extended compositions.


I think Grieg is at his best in the small scale, like the Lyrical pieces. In fact, I once heard that Grieg was considering composing a symphony, but then he attended a concert where his compatriot Svendsen's symphony was performed, and he felt that he could never match that, so... no Grieg symphony. That said, I think his Holberg suite for string orchestra is one of the finest pieces of music ever written. 


> In musing about this thread, I tried to think of a Dutch composer of note, and failed to come up with any name at all. This is either my woeful ignorance, or a bit odd, considering that the Concertgebouw would be on most people's shortlist for the world's finest orchestra.


Badings, Diepenbrock, Röntgen, Wagenaar and Andriessen are a few, but far from well-known. Hellendaal was a good Baroque composer, Fodor wrote Mozart-like symphonies, and van Gilse is a Bartok contemporary.

But the Dutch stay under the radar too.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

If any of you have ever been to the concert gebouw you will have seen plaques with the names of famous composers all around, there are two dutch composers that have already been mentioned - Sweelinck and Diepenbrock.

There is no denying Sweelincks influence, he paved the way for people like bach.

And diepenbrock is just awesome, one of his suites is named - "gijesbrecht van aemstel". It is named after a street in amsterdam, one that I live around the corner from


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## Yosser (May 29, 2009)

emiellucifuge said:


> There is no denying Sweelincks influence, he paved the way for people like bach. And diepenbrock is just awesome...


Again, no offense an'all, but would you not agree that for a country with a population not all that much less than all of Scandinavia, with a rich culture in the visual arts, boasting one of the world's great orchestras (which Scandinavia does not), Sweelinck and Diepenbrock is a bit underwhelming?

I'm not making any other point here except that I find this a bit odd. Don't you?


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## bdelykleon (May 21, 2009)

Yosser said:


> Again, no offense an'all, but would you not agree that for a country with a population not all that much less than all of Scandinavia, with a rich culture in the visual arts, boasting one of the world's great orchestras (which Scandinavia does not), Sweelinck and Diepenbrock is a bit underwhelming?
> 
> I'm not making any other point here except that I find this a bit odd. Don't you?


This happens also to Spain, a country with an overwhelming tradition in visual arts, in the case of Spain also in literature, but has an incredible void in music history from Victoria until the generation of Granados and Albéniz. The reason must be found in the history of each country (just like British history explains the lack of composers of note from Purcell until about Elgar).


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## Yosser (May 29, 2009)

bdelykleon said:


> This happens also to Spain... The reason must be found in the history of each country (just like British history explains the lack of composers of note from Purcell until about Elgar).


True. But still does not explain the Concertgebouw. There is no orchestra in Spain that has a claim to fame.

The UK is, I think, a bit different. The London musical scene was always active -- viz courting of Haydn, Mendelssohn, trying to commission Beethoven -- anyone who'd subject himself to their rules (which Brahms, famously, would not). But homegrown artists were always viewed with suspicion by the ruling class, which regarded itself as being 'above' the mere pursuit of art. Genuine status in London was to be able to, and to do nothing whatsoever, but nevertheless to have 'influence'. The British ruling class never established a rapport with artists in the way the k.u.k did.

So the romantic composers, including Elgar, had to overreach and write 'patriotic' crap that glorified the empire. Personally, my favorite is Delius, who just got on with it on the 'to hell with them' principle.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Yosser said:


> So the romantic composers, including Elgar, had to overreach and write 'patriotic' crap that glorified the empire. Personally, my favorite is Delius, who just got on with it on the 'to hell with them' principle.


This is a great post for two reasons: 1. it's true that Elgar did write some music that wasn't particularly well-conceived and 2. Delius could care less what the English thought about his music. You're right he NEVER wrote music that glorified the Queen or somebody of royalty or political importance just to "get ahead." No, he composed the music he wanted to, in fact, I'm not even sure why he's even considered an "English" composer, he lived in Paris for a good portion of his life and his parents were German.


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## bdelykleon (May 21, 2009)

Yosser said:


> True. But still does not explain the Concertgebouw. There is no orchestra in Spain that has a claim to fame.


But the Concertgebouw status and quality may only be a result of the genius of Mengelberg who leaded the orchestra for so many years, no other orchestra is so linked to a conductor as them. Great conductors can creat great traditions.


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## Yosser (May 29, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> I'm not even sure why he's even considered an "English" composer, he lived in Paris for a good portion of his life and his parents were German.


If you're born in Bradford and subjected to the local schools something English -- well, Yorkshire -- has to rub off on you. I guess if we refer to Haendel as a german composer, we have pretty much to refer to Delius as an english composer.

Whatever etiquette you want to stick on him, I like his music.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Yosser said:


> If you're born in Bradford and subjected to the local schools something English -- well, Yorkshire -- has to rub off on you. I guess if we refer to Haendel as a german composer, we have pretty much to refer to Delius as an english composer.
> 
> Whatever etiquette you want to stick on him, I like his music.


Oh without question Delius was brought up in England, but his musical training didn't begin until he began living in Florida. There he took a six month course in compositional technique. It was also in Florida where he heard Black church music for the first time and was enchanted with it. His "Florida Suite" is where you can hear this influence come through.

People can view him as an English composer all they want to, but the reality is he spent less time in England than any other country. Why do historians call him an English composer is beyond me, but they're way off base when they do.

And yes, I love Delius' music, in fact, you won't find a bigger Delius freak than me on forum.


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## Yosser (May 29, 2009)

bdelykleon said:


> But the Concertgebouw status and quality may only be a result of the genius of Mengelberg who leaded the orchestra for so many years, no other orchestra is so linked to a conductor as them. Great conductors can creat great traditions.


So that's why the Concertgebouw is so closely linked with Mahler! I've often wondered about that. Van Beinum and then Haitink got them doing fantastic Brueckner, too.

But all this merely sharpens the focus. A huge number of young people must have listened to performances of the Concertgebouw over the years, but the orchestra has not inspired budding composers to flower. Or perhaps it has, but is sluggish in promoting the work of indigenous artists.


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## JAKE WYB (May 28, 2009)

i agree - a composer should be regarded as coming from the place which inspires him most and which affects his music in a 1st hand way - Delius's north yorkshire sketches for example - a desperate attempt to be sentimental about the region of his childood becaause musically it is unsuccesful at conveying anyrhing about its subject - and i would know having grown up in bradford also - delius left bradford at the earliest opportunity beacuse it was horrible and therefore his music isnt a product of this region


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Yosser said:


> So that's why the Concertgebouw is so closely linked with Mahler! I've often wondered about that. Van Beinum and then Haitink got them doing fantastic Brueckner, too.
> 
> But all this merely sharpens the focus. A huge number of young people must have listened to performances of the Concertgebouw over the years, but the orchestra has not inspired budding composers to flower. Or perhaps it has, but is sluggish in promoting the work of indigenous artists.


Yes, the Royal Concertgebouw has a great history of Mahler and Bruckner. Two conductors come to mind: Haintink and Chailly.

Haitink has done a lot for the RCO. Probably more than most conductors in modern times have done.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

JAKE WYB said:


> i agree - a composer should be regarded as coming from the place which inspires him most and which affects his music in a 1st hand way - Delius's north yorkshire sketches for example - a desperate attempt to be sentimental about the region of his childood becaause musically it is unsuccesful at conveying anyrhing about its subject - and i would know having grown up in bradford also - delius left bradford at the earliest opportunity beacuse it was horrible and therefore his music isnt a product of this region


Oh you mean "North Country Sketches." That's a beautiful piece of music despite what his intentions were with the music. That's a very enjoyable piece...that is if you like Delius. If you don't, then you probably won't enjoy his music much anyway.

I think of Delius' music as "nomadic." It really doesn't have a grounding in one country and this, for me, makes his music an interesting experience to behold.


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## Yosser (May 29, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> People can view him as an English composer all they want to, but the reality is he spent less time in England than any other country. Why do historians call him an English composer is beyond me, but they're way off base when they do.


I agree with your remarks, with the minor caveat that what happens to you when you are young inevitably influences your attitude to everything, including music, and the first two decades of one's life are far more important than any others.

Nevertheless, I agree with you that it is particularly inappropriate to hang a national etiquette on Delius. I kind of hope that in the future all this national mumbo jumbo disappears and we speak only of 'composers of the western tradition'.

I'm not accepting odds, however!


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Yosser said:


> I agree with your remarks, with the minor caveat that what happens to you when you are young inevitably influences your attitude to everything, including music, and the first two decades of one's life are far more important than any others.
> 
> Nevertheless, I agree with you that it is particularly inappropriate to hang a national etiquette on Delius. I kind of hope that in the future all this national mumbo jumbo disappears and we speak only of 'composers of the western tradition'.
> 
> I'm not accepting odds, however!


I think it's okay to view somebody as a Russian composer or as a French composer if that's what they are. Where I start drawing the line is this "national mumbo jumbo" as you put it. I think the term "Nationalistic" was given to many of these composers because nobody could come up with a good term to use to describe these composer's music.


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## BuddhaBandit (Dec 31, 2007)

Mirror Image said:


> I think it's okay to view somebody as a Russian composer or as a French composer if that's what they are. Where I start drawing the line is this "national mumbo jumbo" as you put it. I think the term "Nationalistic" was given to many of these composers because nobody could come up with a good term to use to describe these composer's music.


I think it's a perfectly reasonable label. There's long been a separation between the "popular" or folk music of a country and the "serious" music- and composers that aim to mesh them deserve a special tag. And it gives you a clue as to what their music is like- if I described an American composer as "nationalistic", odds are he would sound somewhat similar to Copland. At the end of the day, all tags are meaningless (but helpful). Saying a composer is "in the Western tradition" tells you very little about the content of his music- it could be anything from Palestrina to Schoenberg.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

BuddhaBandit said:


> I think it's a perfectly reasonable label. There's long been a separation between the "popular" or folk music of a country and the "serious" music- and composers that aim to mesh them deserve a special tag. And it gives you a clue as to what their music is like- if I described an American composer as "nationalistic", odds are he would sound somewhat similar to Copland. At the end of the day, all tags are meaningless (but helpful). Saying a composer is "in the Western tradition" tells you very little about the content of his music- it could be anything from Palestrina to Schoenberg.


"Tags" have their advantages and disadvantages. The obvious advantage would be your explanation, which I agree with, there has to be some kind of tag given to this music, but the disadvantage of this is much like the tag "impressionism," which doesn't mean that much at that end of the day. Let's take one of my favorite composers Ravel for example. Would you clearly label him as an Impressionist? No, you wouldn't because he composed much more that goes beyond those conventions. He could be looked at as a Neo-Classicist, which is how I would rather look at him, because he only composed a few pieces that were in a Debussy-like vein.

Anyway, my point is there are positives and negatives to labeling a composer. Thankfully, many of the best composers exceeded far past these labels that have been bestowed upon them.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

This is an interesting discussion. I don't know about the Grieg of Sweden, as I'm not aware of the latter countries' music. However, it was clear that Grieg was one of the nationalistic composers of the late C19th, much like Dvorak, Smetana or Balakirev.

As to the appropriateness of labels, I also think they are problematic. They are still useful, however, to categorise/describe composers works, especially for the newcomer to classical, which presents a vast repertoire of styles and periods.

I think that it's more useful to talk of generations of classical composers, for example, the 1860's generation, which included Richard Strauss, Debussy & Mahler (if my memory is correct!). Perhaps that approach reflects more so the true diversity of styles in classical...


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

Mirror Image said:


> I think the term "Nationalistic" was given to many of these composers because nobody could come up with a good term to use to describe these composer's music.


Disagreed. I think most aimed to strengthen the culture around them and sing a poetic interpretation of it.

In addition, many were fiercely nationalistic.


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

Andre said:


> As to the appropriateness of labels, I also think they are problematic. They are still useful, however, to categorise/describe composers works, especially for the newcomer to classical, which presents a vast repertoire of styles and periods.


They have dual use.

First to categorize by musical era; second, to describe aspects of music regardless of era.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Conservationist said:


> Disagreed.


 Gee, how did I not see this coming?


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