# Dectecting one composer... into another



## Manuel (Feb 1, 2007)

Can you name some composer's works that show an influence from other fellow writers?
Works that thematically or stilistically _borrow_ something from other compositions...

I will start with....

Mieckislav Vainberg: his piano quintet Op. 18 reminds me a lot of Shostakovich and Prokofiev. The opening of the first movement, with the piano playing a short and simple melody in two octaves with the string instruments building a base is clearly Shostakovich for me. As so is the maniac waltz in the 3rd movement*. In the same 3rd movement the piano takes a prokofievan turn...

*the waltz also makes me think in an awful european tango...

Sergei Bortkiewicz: violin sonata in g minor. The opening theme and the way he uses the piano reminds me Cesar Franck's A major sonata. But the violin is presented with a more harmonic approach: big chords and recurrent double stops (not any Franck's influence, at all).
Of course, with Bortkiewicz you are never sure if the piano writing comes from Liszt, Rachmaninov, Chopin, Brahms or Tchaikovsky


----------



## opus67 (Jan 30, 2007)

On a more popular level, and I think I've told this before, Schubert's 5th symphony. You'd think it was written by Mozart (Not exactly a fellow writer, but the classical influence is clearly there).

Sorry, no jargon from me.


----------



## Manuel (Feb 1, 2007)

opus67 said:


> On a more popular level, and I think I've told this before, Schubert's 5th symphony. You'd think it was written by Mozart (Not exactly a fellow writer, but the classical influence is clearly there).
> 
> Sorry, no jargon from me.


The 5th... Haydn's best symphony... written by Schubert.


----------



## Manuel (Feb 1, 2007)

opus67 said:


> You'd think it was written by Mozart


WARNING: remember Mozart didn't write good stuff... but he was the most perfect conspiration ever (second by The Da Vinci Code....)

*Paging Robert N...*
*Paging Robert N...*​*Paging Robert N...*​
_Please take the white courtesy phone in the lobby _

_...and come up with the usual rant_ ​


----------



## opus67 (Jan 30, 2007)

Manuel said:


> WARNING: remember Mozart didn't write good stuff... but he was the most perfect conspiration ever (second by The Da Vinci Code....)
> 
> *Paging Robert N...*
> *Paging Robert N...*
> ...


   (assume that's one laughing emoticon)
Where's Mr.Newman, anyway? He hasn't posted in some days.


----------



## Manuel (Feb 1, 2007)

opus67 said:


> (assume that's one laughing emoticon)
> QUOTE]
> 
> Yesss.... sort of.


----------



## Kurkikohtaus (Oct 22, 2006)

Back on topic, *Manuel* mentioned Cesar Franck... one the most blatant derivations that I know are the opening of Cesar Franck's *D minor Symphony*, it sounds exactly like Liszt's *Les Preludes*. Also, the chromatic and dramatic style of the first movement are in a Lisztian vein as well.

One comparison that I wholly resent is when people align Tchaikovsky and Sibelius. Certainly, Sibelius' 1st two symphonies have a penchant for the "big tune", as does Tchaikovsky, but even in those works there is novel phrasing based on Finnish speech patterns, and while Symphony No. 1 is orchestrated in a standard "European" way, Symphony No. 2, while still using the large Tchaikovsky orchestra goes somewhere completely different and new in terms of orchestral layers. Also, the structure of each movement is far beyond what Tchaikovsky ever wrote, which is by the way no criticism vs. Tchaikovsky.

People often wonder how is it possible that the 3rd Symphony is suddenly "So Different"... well, I say that *it's not*. The 3rd is written exactly like the 2nd, it's just more compressed and efficient and devoid of the "Big Tune". If people would listen more carefully to the 2nd, they would discover far greater connections to the 3rd than to anything that Tchaikovsky had ever written.


----------



## Lisztfreak (Jan 4, 2007)

Kurkikohtaus said:


> Back on topic, *Manuel* mentioned Cesar Franck... one the most blatant derivations that I know are the opening of Cesar Franck's *D minor Symphony*, it sounds exactly like Liszt's *Les Preludes*.


Totally true!!!



> One comparison that I wholly resent is when people align Tchaikovsky and Sibelius. Certainly, Sibelius' 1st two symphonies have a penchant for the "big tune", as does Tchaikovsky, but even in those works there is novel phrasing based on Finnish speech patterns, and while Symphony No. 1 is orchestrated in a standard "European" way, Symphony No. 2, while still using the large Tchaikovsky orchestra goes somewhere completely different and new in terms of orchestral layers.


I agree. Even in his no.1, his very first symphony, I find the 2nd movement typically Sibelian (I don't know if that's the word...  ).


----------



## Leporello87 (Mar 25, 2007)

The construction and melodies and harmonies are obviously very different, but the music of Poulenc often sounds to me to have an underlying Mozartean quality to it. Re-reading Manuel's original post, though, I wonder if the connection is perhaps a bit too disjoint.


----------



## Manuel (Feb 1, 2007)

> The construction and melodies and harmonies are obviously very different, but the music of Poulenc often sounds to me to have an underlying Mozartean quality to it. Re-reading Manuel's original post, though, I wonder if the connection is perhaps a bit too disjoint.


Don't worry. I didn't dare to mention how mozartian I find the Mahler symphonies...


----------



## Kurkikohtaus (Oct 22, 2006)

Lisztfreak said:


> Even in his no.1, his very first symphony, I find the 2nd movement typically *Sibelian *(I don't know if that's the word)


Of course that's the word, *Lisztfreak*, it's the only word as far as I'm concerned.

I may be taking traffic away from my SibForum, but what the heck... here is how the 2nd movement of Symphony No. 1 works. It is based on Sibelius' unique Variations concept, which comes from the way in which tales are told in the *Kalevala*.

Tales, or *Runo*, are sung over and over, each time with a small variation, but each time leaving something to the imagination, never saying anything strictly to the point and clearly. The thoughts and feelings of the protagonists are _hinted at_ but never fully expounded. This is precisely how Sibelius writes his variations. Can anyone tell me which statement of the theme the 2nd mvmt of that symphony is the definitive one? Of course not, because the "real theme" is never arrived at. He dances _around_ the theme, hinting at it, showing us its contours and its many possibilities, but never coming out and showing us its basic form.

Rather than calling it a _Theme and Variations_, it could be thought of as *Variations on an Unstated Theme*.

Compare the 2nd movements of the *3rd* and *5th* symphonies, as well as the 3rd theme (also the recap-theme) of *En Saga*. Same procedure.


----------



## Manuel (Feb 1, 2007)

Kurkikohtaus said:


> I may be taking traffic away from my SibForum, but what the heck... here is how the 2nd movement of Symphony No. 1 works. It is based on Sibelius' unique Variations concept, which comes from the way in which tales are told in the *Kalevala*.
> 
> Tales, or *Runo*, are sung over and over, each time with a small variation, but each time leaving something to the imagination, never saying anything strictly to the point and clearly. The thoughts and feelings of the protagonists are _hinted at_ but never fully expounded. This is precisely how Sibelius writes his variations. Can anyone tell me which statement of the theme the 2nd mvmt of that symphony is the definitive one? Of course not, because the "real theme" is never arrived at. He dances _around_ the theme, hinting at it, showing us its contours and its many possibilities, but never coming out and showing us its basic form.


Thanks a lot for this. That's something I hadn't noticed.
Where is your SibForum?



> Rather than calling it a _Theme and Variations_, it could be thought of as *Variations on an Unstated Theme*.


Perhaps like the variazioni senza tema in Vaughan Williams 8th?


----------



## Lisztfreak (Jan 4, 2007)

Yeah, thanks, Kurki!  Knowing what to look for can sometimes greatly improve the listening experience.


----------



## Kurkikohtaus (Oct 22, 2006)

Manuel said:


> Where is your SibForum?


Dear Manuel, if you look carefully at the link in my signature, you will discover a great surprise! 

I would like to state, however, for the sake of order, that I am not trying to divert traffic away from Talk Classical, nor do I view Talk Classical as a recruiting ground for my forum. Talk Classical is a place where I obviously spend a lot of time, in fact, much more time than the Sibelius Forum!


----------



## Handel (Apr 18, 2007)

Handel's Arrival of the Queen of Sheba (in Solomon) and Telemann's violin concerto in F major (from Tafelmusik)


----------



## Manuel (Feb 1, 2007)

> Dear Manuel, if you look carefully at the link in my signature, you will discover a great surprise!


My profile was set not show signatures...


----------



## Guest (Apr 19, 2007)

Manuel said:


> The 5th... Haydn's best symphony... written by Schubert.


The accompaniment of Gounod's Ave Maria written by Bach    - sorry!


----------



## Morigan (Oct 16, 2006)

Ok, this is really obvious but that's what I can come up with now.

Rossini's music is most of the time Mozart's operatic style or signature phrases amplified and lenghtened, with a touch of italian spice.


----------



## Guest (Apr 20, 2007)

Schnittke's _Peer Gynt,_ which even has a bit in it that sounds more like Grieg than Grieg. Course, he never uses any Grieg, so this might not be germane to this thread.

But speaking of Tchaikovsky, there's always that _Mozartiana_ thing of his. That's worth a listen or two. Stravinsky's _Pulcinella,_ of course, that hardly even disguises the Pergolesi tunes, and his _Baiser de la fée,_ which does more disguising of the Tchaikovsky it uses. I can't say anything about _Rake's Progress.
_
Holmboe learned from Nielsen, as did Simpson, but Holmboe was more successful at pulling away from Carl's influence. They say that Nielsen started out sounding like Brahms (you know, "they"), but I can't say I've ever heard any Brahms in Nielsen.

Otherwise, there's Bernstein. The tune "Maria" from _West Side Story_ is very close to a tune in Beethoven's _Emperor_ concerto, second movement, and "There's a place for us" is almost note for note from Richard Strauss's _Burleske._

In _Richard III,_ Smetana uses a descending figure that's exactly like one in Mendelssohn's _Octet._

Thieves, robbers, brigands!!!

Otherwise, I find composers who rob from _themselves_ interesting, starting with Beethoven and that Eroica tune he couldn't leave alone. Berlioz and Prokofiev were two great recyclers--the famous idee fixe in _Symphonie Fantastique_ can be heard in an early form (its earliest?) in _Messe Solennelle_, which Gardiner discovered a few years ago. (That's full of little tidbits Berlioz would use later on.) Prokofiev's _Eugene Onegin_ is like that. It's full of little bits he was to use later in half a dozen other works, or more.


----------



## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

The most "Beethovenian" thing that I've heard heard from a pen other than Beethoven's is Wagner's _A Faust Overture_. Since Beethoven may be the one composer with whom the Master of Bayreuth wouldn't mind being compared, I think he'd tolerate the analogy.


----------



## Manuel (Feb 1, 2007)

Chi_town/Philly said:


> The most "Beethovenian" thing that I've heard heard from a pen other than Beethoven's is Wagner's _A Faust Overture_. Since Beethoven may be the one composer with whom the Master of Bayreuth wouldn't mind being compared, I think he'd tolerate the analogy.


I think Spontini's writting sounds a lot like Beethoven too. He wrote operas mostly, but after listening to his purely orchestral works (like the oberture to La Vestale) we can spot the similarities.


----------



## Kesiak (May 11, 2007)

Kurkikohtaus wrote:


> One comparison that I wholly resent is when people align Tchaikovsky and Sibelius. Certainly, Sibelius' 1st two symphonies have a penchant for the "big tune", as does Tchaikovsky, but even in those works there is novel phrasing based on Finnish speech patterns, and while Symphony No. 1 is orchestrated in a standard "European" way, Symphony No. 2, while still using the large Tchaikovsky orchestra goes somewhere completely different and new in terms of orchestral layers. Also, the structure of each movement is far beyond what Tchaikovsky ever wrote, which is by the way no criticism vs. Tchaikovsky.


Yes, this is true. I love both composers and there are more differences than connections in their pieces, but one cannot deny the influences in early Sibelius works by Tchaikovsky. After all it was Sibelius who liked his music, but was aware of his own style as he said: "I cannot understand why my symphonies are so often compared with Tchaikovsky's. His symphonies are very human, but they represent the soft part of human nature. Mine are the hard ones."


----------



## Lisztfreak (Jan 4, 2007)

Two interesting things that I discovered recently!

1. The second, slow movement of Beethoven's Violin and Piano Sonata No.2, Op.12 uses
the 'Figaro, Figaro, FI-GA-RO!' motif from the 'Largo al factotum' air of Figaro from the Rossini's famous opera
2. A motif in the third to last (if I remember well) part of Brahms' German Requiem is very
alike one in Dvorak's Symphony No.9, 4th mvt (again, if I remember well... listen and
compare if it intrigues you).


----------



## robert newman (Oct 4, 2006)

Thank you Manuel - I will accept the call if the charges for it are reversed - LOL !


----------



## Kurkikohtaus (Oct 22, 2006)

Lisztfreak said:


> 1. The second, slow movement of Beethoven's Violin and Piano Sonata No.2, Op.12 uses the 'Figaro, Figaro, FI-GA-RO!' motif from the 'Largo al factotum' air of Figaro from the Rossini's famous opera.


In terms of chronology, wouldn't that be the other way around?


----------



## Lisztfreak (Jan 4, 2007)

Well, I don't know when were the works composed, but I'll try and see if I can make use of Wikipedia.


----------



## Lisztfreak (Jan 4, 2007)

Yes, the Sonata is older after all.

By the way, I didn't know Beethoven and Rossini actually met at least once, and Beethoven expressed his esteem for Rossini's comic operas.


----------



## Rod Corkin (Jun 1, 2007)

*Queen of Sheba*



Handel said:


> Handel's Arrival of the Queen of Sheba (in Solomon) and Telemann's violin concerto in F major (from Tafelmusik)


I have read from so many sources, academic and otherwise, that Handel simply plagiarised Telemann for his Sheba music, yet in an aria from Handel's abandoned opera 'Silla', produced in 1713/14, much earlier than Tafelmisc, there is the familar repeating 4 note theme we know from Sheba for all to hear! All Handel had to do was work this into an oboe concerto format and there you have it! I'm sure Handel was familiar with Tafelmusic, but the Sheba theme he had already composed himself in any case. Perhaps Telemann had 'borrowed' it from Handel!?

As far as I am aware I have not read of this discovery of mine anywhere else, and I've never mentioned this to anyone before but your post stimulated me into action.

Another first for Rod Corkin...?

I might add I have read in a number of places on the web than Handel 'stole' some music for Messiah from some other composer's Italian duets. The reality of the matter is that the duets in question were actually Handel's.


----------



## Handel (Apr 18, 2007)

Rod Corkin said:


> I have read from so many sources, academic and otherwise, that Handel simply plagiarised Telemann for his Sheba music, yet in an aria from Handel's abandoned opera 'Silla', produced in 1713/14, much earlier than Tafelmisc, there is the familar repeating 4 note theme we know from Sheba for all to hear! All Handel had to do was work this into an oboe concerto format and there you have it! I'm sure Handel was familiar with Tafelmusic, but the Sheba theme he had already composed himself in any case. Perhaps Telemann had 'borrowed' it from Handel!?
> 
> As far as I am aware I have not read of this discovery of mine anywhere else, and I've never mentioned this to anyone before but your post stimulated me into action.
> 
> ...


Handel borrowed a lot. Mainly to himself. However, it is well-known that Handel borrow some themes from Telemann's Tafelmusik.

Anyway, Handel's work is far better than Telemann concerto, imo.

Let's compare:

Handel: http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-...10/ref=mu_sam_wma_002_010/105-4058868-6407602

Telemann: 
http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-...05/ref=mu_sam_wma_003_005/105-4058868-6407602

Handel also used this movement in Belshazzar:

Telemann: http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-...04/ref=mu_sam_wma_004_004/105-4058868-6407602

Handel:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-...14/ref=mu_sam_wma_002_014/105-4058868-6407602


----------



## Manuel (Feb 1, 2007)

Rod Corkin said:


> I have read from so many sources, academic and otherwise, that _Handel simply plagiarised Telemann_ for his Sheba music, yet in an aria from Handel's abandoned opera 'Silla', produced in 1713/14, much earlier than Tafelmisc, there is the familar repeating 4 note theme we know from Sheba for all to hear! All Handel had to do was work this into an oboe concerto format and there you have it! I'm sure Handel was familiar with Tafelmusic, but the Sheba theme he had already composed himself in any case. Perhaps Telemann had 'borrowed' it from Handel!?
> 
> Another first for Rod Corkin...?
> 
> I might add I have read in a number of places on the web than _Handel 'stole' some music for Messiah from some other composer's Italian duets_. The reality of the matter is that the duets in question were actually Handel's.


Hi Rod. PM this guy*, I think you two will get on well.

*I went to the members section looking for Robert Newman's account to add there as a link, but discovered there's no trace of him. Am I missing any information?


----------



## Krummhorn (Feb 18, 2007)

Hi Manuel - and welcome back, too !!

Robert Newman is on "leave" - In due course of time he has the option to return ...  

Kh


----------

