# Tom Petty: Confirmed Opioid Fatality



## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

It's been confirmed that Tom Petty fell victim to an opioid overdose, triggered by hip pain.

http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-42755887


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## The Deacon (Jan 14, 2018)

Who cares about Tom Petty.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

The Deacon said:


> Who cares about Tom Petty.


???????!!!! I care about Tom Petty, so your question is answered.


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2018)

US had a reputation for giving out antidepressant pills like smarties, but I didn't know that sister morphine was an issue.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Tulse said:


> US had a reputation for giving out antidepressant pills like smarties, but I didn't know that sister morphine was an issue.


Actually a full-blown epidemic here: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41701718


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

If someone is in that much pain, the sensible thing to do is go to the hospital so your breathing can be monitored while being administered pain medication. And you need to educate yourself concerning drug interactions. I am now in a similar situation since I reinjured my back. I have been prescribed a mild opiate called Nucynta. I take only one pill at a time. It doesn't space me out as much as oxycodone. I'm glad I've got some relief until I can get in for an MRI and see if I'm going to need surgery to relieve a severely pinched sciatic nerve. It's a shame Petty met his end this way. He was still a young man.


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## LezLee (Feb 21, 2014)

The Deacon said:


> Who cares about Tom Petty.


I do. Why are you asking?


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2018)

Strange Magic said:


> Actually a full-blown epidemic here: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41701718


It is really quite awful that people are being prescribed opiates because they don't have the insurance that will qualify them for treatment. As a European that is very hard to read.

It is inspiring to see that Tom Petty's family seem to be happy to use him to help publicise the problem at a very difficult time for them.



> BBC: *A culture of medication*
> 
> Some Americans, says Professor Keith Humphreys from Stanford University, believe that life is "fixable".
> 
> ...


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2018)

The Deacon said:


> Who cares about Tom Petty.


Presumably Dana York, his 2 children, other relatives & some of his numerous fans.

Personal question. How old are you The Deacon? Its strange that the knowledge of Prog you seem to have makes you appear senior ie > 60, but a comment like that would more normally be expected to come from a schoolboy.

Which is it?


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

Another musician to die from misuse of medication for pain, following other recent high profile victims such as Prince and Michael Jackson.
Another very sorry story


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2018)

Perhaps we should give some thought to adding a volcano to the forum, eh?

I don't recall reading anything in the ToS which prevents us from tossing fellow members into live volcanoes...but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong...which I'm really really really hoping I'm not...


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

I knew someone who lived in the same neighborhood as Petty and said they used to smoke pot together frequently. He was a heavy pot smoker, so he didn't seem able to quite make the separation between aesthetic feelings that came naturally from life/spirituality and experiences gotten from drugs, which have almost no value.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

It's hard for me, as a semi-Teetotal, to determine to what degree alcohol or pot use, or any kind of drug use, influences what artists create. Many do relate that, in retrospect, such use degraded their art, their creativity. I regard myself as fortunate in experiencing violent nausea if I have more than two drinks, so I stop at two, or one, or, more commonly, none. Likewise, I have a bad reaction to pot, so quit it decades ago. My own view is that overuse of alcohol can be both a physiological addiction and also, like habitual pot use, a way to cope with negative thoughts, boredom, ennui, etc. Generally the long-term consequences range from not good to downright terrible. Petty's situation and his death, though, may be just as reported--too much pain and too much painkiller.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Tulse said:


> It is really quite awful that people are being prescribed opiates because they don't have the insurance that will qualify them for treatment. As a European that is very hard to read.
> 
> It is inspiring to see that Tom Petty's family seem to be happy to use him to help publicise the problem at a very difficult time for them.


The Opioid crisis is pretty complex. The best article that I've read on it was in The American Scholar a few months back. The author is a part time Journalist and Primary Care Doctor.
I'm a Primary Care Physician. Most of our chronic opioid patients we inherit from elsewhere. Their Doctor has retired, their insurance changed and they need to move to a new site, they themselves have moved....
In the nineties we we were harangued that we were under treating chronic pain. The Joint Commission Of Hospital Regulation told us pain was the 6th vital sign. Not being responsive to Patient complaints of pain was providing bad care and subject to disciplinary action., We were also told that the risks of addiction to opioids was overblown. Fast forward 20 years and these same experts and regulators haven't done squat to give us any meaningful way to help end this crisis that they created.
It's really hard to turn the spigot of these people. I randomly drug test the people who come in every month on the dot for a refill. A few test negative, which means that they aren't taking it but are diverting it-selling it for profit, presumably. I then refuse to give them more. Last month a very obese woman started yelling at me because of this. She could be heard swearing in the whole office. She refused to leave the office without a script. We called security. She refused to accompany them. Security called the Police who ultimately had to handcuff here. She made threats against our whole office as they led her out. I now look over my shoulder when I park my car and enter the office.
I didn't go to Medical School to have experiences such as these. Even the less dramatic confrontations are very unpleasant time consuming experiences. And we have virtually no useful alternative options


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

^^^^What a tale! Triplets, thank you for your insider's insight into this growing problem. Reports from rural and small-town America are rife with similar, and worse, incidents of routine opioid deaths and/or repeated streetside resuscitations. A plague.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Triplets said:


> The Opioid crisis is pretty complex. The best article that I've read on it was in The American Scholar a few months back. The author is a part time Journalist and Primary Care Doctor.
> I'm a Primary Care Physician. Most of our chronic opioid patients we inherit from elsewhere. Their Doctor has retired, their insurance changed and they need to move to a new site, they themselves have moved....
> In the nineties we we were harangued that we were under treating chronic pain. The Joint Commission Of Hospital Regulation told us pain was the 6th vital sign. Not being responsive to Patient complaints of pain was providing bad care and subject to disciplinary action., We were also told that the risks of addiction to opioids was overblown. Fast forward 20 years and these same experts and regulators haven't done squat to give us any meaningful way to help end this crisis that they created.
> It's really hard to turn the spigot of these people. I randomly drug test the people who come in every month on the dot for a refill. A few test negative, which means that they aren't taking it but are diverting it-selling it for profit, presumably. I then refuse to give them more. Last month a very obese woman started yelling at me because of this. She could be heard swearing in the whole office. She refused to leave the office without a script. We called security. She refused to accompany them. Security called the Police who ultimately had to handcuff here. She made threats against our whole office as they led her out. I now look over my shoulder when I park my car and enter the office.
> I didn't go to Medical School to have experiences such as these. Even the less dramatic confrontations are very unpleasant time consuming experiences. And we have virtually no useful alternative options


This is spot on. I have worked in family practice for ten years and can attest to this....and it has become more rampant in the last 3-4 years (or may be that the region in which I work is worse than previous. No surprise, it's a socioeconomically depressed area) Often people who are prescribed a short term supply of an opiate for a temporary problem call for refills, presuming that they've been given a ticket to receive opiates for any other pain they have--physical OR otherwise. Unfortunately some of my colleagues are too free and easy with the prescriptions which leads to a vicious cycle.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Sonata said:


> This is spot on. I have worked in family practice for ten years and can attest to this....and it has become more rampant in the last 3-4 years (or may be that the region in which I work is worse than previous. No surprise, it's a socioeconomically depressed area) Often people who are prescribed a short term supply of an opiate for a temporary problem call for refills, presuming that they've been given a ticket to receive opiates for any other pain they have--physical OR otherwise. Unfortunately some of my colleagues are too free and easy with the prescriptions which leads to a vicious cycle.


The article thatI cited argues that Physicians need to remembrance the Paternalistic, "we know what's best for the patient " that was so discredited early in my career in favor of the 'give the patient what they want, there the ones with the pain' mentality


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2018)

Triplets said:


> The Opioid crisis is pretty complex. The best article that I've read on it was in The American Scholar a few months back. The author is a part time Journalist and Primary Care Doctor.
> I'm a Primary Care Physician. Most of our chronic opioid patients we inherit from elsewhere. Their Doctor has retired, their insurance changed and they need to move to a new site, they themselves have moved....
> In the nineties we we were harangued that we were under treating chronic pain. The Joint Commission Of Hospital Regulation told us pain was the 6th vital sign. Not being responsive to Patient complaints of pain was providing bad care and subject to disciplinary action., We were also told that the risks of addiction to opioids was overblown. Fast forward 20 years and these same experts and regulators haven't done squat to give us any meaningful way to help end this crisis that they created.
> It's really hard to turn the spigot of these people. I randomly drug test the people who come in every month on the dot for a refill. A few test negative, which means that they aren't taking it but are diverting it-selling it for profit, presumably. I then refuse to give them more. Last month a very obese woman started yelling at me because of this. She could be heard swearing in the whole office. She refused to leave the office without a script. We called security. She refused to accompany them. Security called the Police who ultimately had to handcuff here. She made threats against our whole office as they led her out. I now look over my shoulder when I park my car and enter the office.
> I didn't go to Medical School to have experiences such as these. Even the less dramatic confrontations are very unpleasant time consuming experiences. And we have virtually no useful alternative options


Crikey! Thanks for sharing that Triplets. It sounds like a very complex situation to deal with.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

I am concerned about the presence of a thread that is discussing the problem of opioid (and any other drug) addiction in the general areas of the forum. I completely agree that drug addiction is an horrific problem. I also am very aware that the opioid epidemic is not solely the result of the over-prescription of pain medications. At least one of this type of case has been recently published in the _New York Times. _Tragically there are many people who turn to opioids (and other drugs) as a poor coping mechanism for their depression, life circumstances, lack of any solid grounding in their lives. In a conversation about the opioid epidemic all these other cases are now brought to the light on a public Classical Music Forum. Someone who might come here to learn about and explore music as a positive coping mechanism is then confronted head-on with a very disturbing, serious topic.

A topic that has significant mental health, mood disturbances, personality disorder, and other psychological components. TalkClassical does not have a resident psychologist, psychiatrist, clinical social worker to help someone who might inadvertently read a troubling post in the "What's New" Feed or the "Latest Group Posts" Threads. TalkClassical does not publicize a list of international suicide and counseling help phone and text lines.

*Why is it necessary to hold this type of discussion on TC?*

One can make comments to the various stories being reported on the New York Times website/Twitter feeds/and other social media platforms. There are many highly-respected sites on which to hold this type of necessary conversation; I don't think TalkClassical is the place. I SERIOUSLY REGRET TO HAVE TO BRING THIS UP AGAIN, but there is a lot of experience, reflection and possible legal ramifications for some of the key elements of the Terms of Service.

Even now with the advertisement of the Groups, if I or anyone else wanted to see recent posts, why should we be bombarded with negative political opinions--we can go to almost any other news site for that type of ranting.

Why do you think and/or feel that these types of conversations should be discussed on TalkClassical?


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

So that I may better understand your position JosefinaHW, in your view is it acceptable/permissible to discuss the mental state or addiction problems of composers such as Hugo Wolf, Schumann, Sibelius? I ask out of a genuine sense of bewilderment.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

JosefinaHW said:


> I am concerned about the presence of a thread that is discussing the problem of opioid (and any other drug) addiction in the general areas of the forum. I completely agree that drug addiction is an horrific problem. I also am very aware that the opioid epidemic is not solely the result of the over-prescription of pain medications. At least one of this type of case has been recently published in the _New York Times. _Tragically there are many people who turn to opioids (and other drugs) as a poor coping mechanism for their depression, life circumstances, lack of any solid grounding in their lives. In a conversation about the opioid epidemic all these other cases are now brought to the light on a public Classical Music Forum. Someone who might come here to learn about and explore music as a positive coping mechanism is then confronted head-on with a very disturbing, serious topic.
> 
> A topic that has significant mental health, mood disturbances, personality disorder, and other psychological components. TalkClassical does not have a resident psychologist, psychiatrist, clinical social worker to help someone who might inadvertently read a troubling post in the "What's New" Feed or the "Latest Group Posts" Threads. TalkClassical does not publicize a list of international suicide and counseling help phone and text lines.
> 
> ...


This post is disturbing on so many levels. 
First, Tom Petty is not a Classical Musician. Are we therefore not allowed to discuss musicians from alternative genres? I think that eliminates about 3/4 of Strange Magic's posts...
Second, I don't see anything "political" about the Opiod Crisis. It crosses all boundaries of Society, Political affiliation, religion....etc. Are we now defining that is not strictly related to Musical Expression as Political?
Furthermore, I don't see where anyone in this thread has been providing advice or counseling. The discussion has revolved around the general problem.
Then there is the concept that if 1 TC member advises another on anything, then TC is responsible for the consequences. If I ask someone for a recommendation for a CD of a Beethoven Symphony and I don't care for the CD, does TC owe me a refund? If I mention that I have a cold and someone recommends that I have a hot cup of tea, does TC consider this practicing medicine? 
Why are there always so many people who want to regulate this site until it becomes as boring as a Czerny Etude?


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Triplets said:


> This post is disturbing on so many levels.
> 
> First, Tom Petty is not a Classical Musician. Are we therefore not allowed to discuss musicians from alternative genres? I think that eliminates about 3/4 of Strange Magic's posts...
> 
> ...


I was VERY hesitant to make the post that I did in this thread, and I agree with several of the points that you mention, Triplets, but some I do not. I really DO NOT want this site to be regulated to an extreme; my sincere desire is that everyone knows the rules and follows them voluntarily so that we don't have to get into nasty political and religious "discussions" that devolve into personal attacks and hatred that carries over into our other discussions here.

I know that the opioid (and other drug) problems are not solely caused by doctors over-prescribing pain medications. There are people who use these drugs to escape from the mental pain of their depression; the physical pain that accompanies depression; and the psychological and physical pain and desperation of having nothing solid/no solid foundation in one's life. I think that a great deal of this desperation is because intellectuals have set out to destroy every shred of a sense of objective Truth, Beauty, Goodness, and a Being that grounds reality.

I know we are not supposed to discuss politics or religion, and I don't want to have to discuss it in this context, but I think that a great component of drug addiction, unintentional overdose, intentional overdose is due to the ever-increasing attempts in American (?) culture to destroy Truth/Beauty/Goodness/The Divine. Eventually, if not very soon, the discussion in a thread discussing the opioid/drug crisis will have to include what I just said. I would hope that the crisis/epidemic be discussed to try to identify the causes and then possible solutions. When we go to identify those causes and solutions, religion and politics will then enter the discussion (and on the wide public level--New York Times, government task force, whatever)--they SHOULD enter the discussion, *but TC is not the place for that. * When we then turn to the discussion of public policy then we get into the discussion of political candidates........

Along the same lines, in light of recent events on TC, I am VERY sensitive about any attempts to chip away at the TofS, subtle or not so subtle. That includes this discussion, again, which is better held on a different forum/platform. Also, the attempts to make the groups so much like the main forum that the TofS re/ religion and politics eventually become effectively null and void.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Your reply is very Civil, even if I don’t agree with the bulk of it. So please don’t misunderstand me, I am attempting to be civil in my reply, and there is no personal animus here.
You say that you “hate regulation “ of speech on the site, and say that it isn’t necessary as long as we “follow the rules”. The rules you proposed then greatly regulate freedom of expression. The result is the same
I will not answer your Conspiracy theory about “ever increasing attempts in American Culture to destroy Truth/Beauty/Goodness/The Divine” but I fail to see the connection behind such a supposed conspiracy and the Opioid Crisis. The OC is a Medical Epidemic, and as all Medical Epidemics tend to be, are largely the result of Societal issues. I think that perhaps you are attempting to say that one of the Factors driving the crisis is the general devaluation of Religion; that people who previously may have found salvation in belief now seek drugs as an alternative. I don’t wish to put words in your mouth so correct me if I misunderstand you. If that is your position, I think it is a valid point and one that I hadn’t considered before.
And that is a segue. If we aren’t allowed to talk about these issues, then I never would have had the benefit of considering that last point and I would be the poorer for it. It is possible to discuss societal issues—I hate labeling them Political—rationally, with respect for those with whom we disagree


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Triplets said:


> *T: Your reply is very Civil, even if I don't agree with the bulk of it. So please don't misunderstand me, I am attempting to be civil in my reply, and there is no personal animus here.
> *
> J: Thank you, Triplets, I GREATLY appreciate the civility and courteousness of your response. *
> 
> ...


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Any reply I make will be redundant, so We will respectfully part having exchanged differences of opinion. I know that you mean well and are trying to prevent bullying and disrespect of posters. I agree with the sentiment, but disagree with the tactic. When I see what I perceive as bullying or disrespect I prefer to confront the offender, rather than limit freedom of expression. I appreciate that your heart is in the right place.
As the guy with the pointy ears always says, “Live Long and Prosper.”


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Triplets said:


> Any reply I make will be redundant, so We will respectfully part having exchanged differences of opinion. I know that you mean well and are trying to prevent bullying and disrespect of posters. I agree with the sentiment, but disagree with the tactic. When I see what I perceive as bullying or disrespect I prefer to confront the offender, rather than limit freedom of expression. I appreciate that your heart is in the right place.
> As the guy with the pointy ears always says, "Live Long and Prosper."


I still say that the topic of the opioid epidemic does not belong on TC. It IS a VERY important subject but there are better places to follow and comment on the problem at length.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

JosefinaHW said:


> I still say that the topic of the opioid epidemic does not belong on TC. It IS a VERY important subject but there are better places to follow and comment on the problem at length.


It's not surprising that Tom Petty's death raises the opioid issue. And it's an interesting topic, to be sure.

Perhaps it's better discussed in the Community Forum, but I'll leave that to the moderators. To say something "should" or "should not" be discussed here, though, seems a bit overbearing.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

KenOC said:


> It's not surprising that Tom Petty's death raises the opioid issue. And it's an interesting topic, to be sure.
> 
> Perhaps it's better discussed in the Community Forum, but I'll leave that to the moderators. To say something "should" or "should not" be discussed here, though, seems a bit overbearing.


It wasn't my intention to be overbearing. I didn't express it in the form of an imperative. It is my opinion that it should not be discussed here; how any responds to that is beyond my control.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Triplets said:


> I know that you mean well and are trying to prevent bullying and disrespect.... I agree with the sentiment, but disagree with the tactic. When I see what I perceive as bullying or disrespect I prefer to confront the offender, rather than limit freedom of expression.


Sometimes confronting someone on here results in the verbal equivalent of acid being thrown in one's face, Triplets, and then responding again receives an even worse attack. I think this is why we have rules and moderators. And in the world off the internet, what's truly tragic is that sometimes all we can do for the victims of bullying who turn to drugs to escape is comfort them and try to pick up some of the pieces. We are so far from knowing how to heal these poor people. I would imagine in your field you see many of these poor souls and for my part it is so heartbreaking that anytime I see another bully in action it's almost impossible to restrain one's self from any and all action. If you have some advice on that one besides growing a thicker skin, let me know.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

> JosefinaHW: I do not want to say it is "conspiracy." I am not certain of what the exact dynamic is of the advancement of atheism, or the denouncement/belittlement of any objective value is. I have directly observed the belittlement of belief in God and objective values: the eye winks that "of course, I am an atheist," the repetition of incredibly childish and/or incorrect understandings of theology, etc., etc.,. Not only off TC but also on TC, professors, teachers, and (other) writers who spout these beliefs and mis-understandings as if they were truth. I could give more and more examples of how wide-spread in American culture, is the debasement of any sense of REAL meaning and purpose in the world--I hope my point has been made. It's there; is it a coordinated conspiracy or just trash that is given weight because it is being said by people in authority or by people who have golden tongues and hence the halo effect.


JosefinaHW, I find your posts in this thread remarkable. I stated my bewilderment previously. Tom Petty's death due to opioid overdose may or may not have been indicative of an underlying depression, but in any case, it was a medical issue and was being discussed as one. Depression is also a medical issue, first and foremost, and to the degree we begin to ascribe its presence or causation to non-medical agencies, we lose focus on both its proper diagnosis and its treatment. The history of the AIDS epidemic shows many parallels.

The discussion here neither denounced the morals of Tom Petty (or any other opioid users/victims) nor extolled or advocated for opioid use. Petty's end served instead as yet another reminder that opioids or any other sort of psychoactive drugs should be administered with care and under medical supervision. You will recall that it was I who vigorously opposed the advocacy of the "recreational" use of psychoactive drugs, certainly illegal ones, feeling it had no place under the ToS. But this is an entirely different subject and thread, and, in fact, served as a warning to others of the very dangers of misuse of these substances.

I think that your approach, as I excerpted above, comes perilously close to derailing the discussion and to neutralizing its value as a cautionary tale. Instead of confining yourself to the issues at hand--medical issues--we get a blunderbuss denunciation of atheism, professors, teachers, etc.--coming very close to conspiracy theory. It is a fact that some people suffer from depression, some from addiction, some from both, many from neither, yet all are subjected in varying degrees to the vagaries of daily existence. To the degree that people succumb, their condition should be discussed in medical terms, as public health concerns, and not either swept under the rug or vitiated by folding them into a general theory of moral or social decay.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Depression, mood disorders, anxiety disorders, other mental illnesses and--I and some others strongly suspect--personality disorders ARE medical issues, as is AIDS. I do not denounce the "morals" of anyone who is ill-my focus is prevention, improvement, healing, comfort and support.

What I know and what is increasingly being studied is that many non-medical/not obviously physical things can cause and contribute to the cause of "mental" and physical diseases and disorders:

The lack of a stable (emotional, physical, intellectual, spiritual environment-combination of them all) as a child, an adolescent or young adult when the brain is restructuring, an adult or senior who is already ill or dangerously over-stressed or ill;

Lack of sleep and rest; almost-constant overload of stimuli; overstressing the body and weakening the immune and endocrine systems from excesses of caffeine, other stimulants and then the attempt to calm the body with some other drugs (or other forms of self-harm);

The constant bombardment of negative thoughts and speech;

The bombardment and internalization of thoughts and ideas that are cognitive distortions; and the

Belittlement and condemnation (i.e., the effective destruction) of positive support structures and coping mechanisms, such as meditation and other forms of prayer, the support of a faith community, the belief that life has objective meaning and purpose, etc., etc., etc..

In what I just said above and in previous posts, I AM addressing causes or factors that contribute to a person becoming and remaining ill-physically or mentally (it becomes more and more strange to still use these seemingly different forms, but….). They all form a vicious cycle that increasingly weakens the person, so the person increasingly needs to reach out for more powerful/dramatic/dangerous substances, practices and behaviors.

You and others who are not well-informed or who will only consider scientifically proven facts just don't realize that all of the above do contribute to illness and substance abuse. (Although it is the ideal, many of us don't have time to wait for proof from experiments/studies. I'm not advocating dangerous quackery-I firmly believe in the oath "to first do no harm." And not only in medicine. Good doctors do and have learned from their patients, and medicine often advances from doctors learning from their patients.)

No matter what YOU say, it is common knowledge to many that some intellectuals, professors, teachers, and (other) writers have been taking an excessively reductionist and secularized approach in many fields for decades. Professors/teachers/writers in non-theological fields openly belittle and condemn religion, any sense of objective truth, objective meaning and purpose to life. This is not a conspiracy theory. I don't understand the entire dynamic, but as an example particularly relevant here, I do know that there is a common misconception that the scientific method is to used for the study of supposedly "all" reality either because that IS the "only" reality that there is, or because it is the finest method to study anything.

Ideas and thoughts expressed by these people--*can create cognitive distortions* in their students and readers. It can create disabling or overly-stressful cognitive distortions when a student/person internalizes or ATTEMPTS to internalize ideas about rugged individualism; extreme individualism; rejection and celebration of the rejection of the "system;" condemnation and belittlement of those who have phobias or other neuroses-sorry, we've all got them; condemnation and belittlement of those who do belong to a faith community; the preaching that the world is to be looked at only with a cold, scientific eye. The student/reader/intellectual him/herself may continuously come up against the brick wall of not being able to live up to these supposed ideals, they may form and deeply internalize negative judgments about themselves that result in increasing anxiety. Then along with the combination of other factors, the person may reach out to increasingly dangerous drugs, other forms of self-harm, to sooth themselves and escape the frustration and pain. I am making this sound overly simple, but at some key moment, the person has a serious medical problem. Society has a serious medical problem that is continued and worsened in a vicious circle.

Since I've been called on the carpet that I want to sweep things under the carpet or I want to ban all discussion of these types of problems, nothing I have ever said on TC re/ religion (or politics) is because I fear for the salvation of people (or any beings). In my mind and heart, everything will return to God and no million and two years in purgatory is necessary. My primary (but not exclusive) motivation is to prevent and relieve UNNECESSARY AND AVOIDABLE suffering in this world.

As I said in a previous post, I knew that a discussion of the problem and solutions of opioid and other addictions, was eventually going to include religion and politics because they are both part of the cause and the cure.

If you still think what I have said has neutralized the cautionary value of this thread, then ask the moderators to delete my posts with my support.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

JosefinaHW, I have carefully read your reply. It (merely, though expansively) repeats your previous thesis that cognitive distortions can/do occur in some people when they hear or read things that are at variance with their expectations (or yours, it would appear). You again repeat that you are not offering a conspiracy theory, and I believe you. You offer instead a general theory of philosophical and moral decay as a wellspring of illness, addiction and dysfunction; it is a denunciation of ideology presented itself as an ideology. I repeat that your notions are not helpful in dealing with a medical problem. Addiction has been around for thousands of years, under a multitude of modes of education, government, religion, social organization. It is a medical problem and is best understood and treated as such, often with 12-step programs working with detox a tried and true method of dealing with an often near-intractable affliction.


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

Strange Magic said:


> JosefinaHW, I have carefully read your reply. It (merely, though expansively) repeats your previous thesis that cognitive distortions can/do occur in some people when they hear or read things that are at variance with their expectations (or yours, it would appear). You again repeat that you are not offering a conspiracy theory, and I believe you. You offer instead a general theory of philosophical and moral decay as a wellspring of illness, addiction and dysfunction; it is a denunciation of ideology presented itself as an ideology. I repeat that your notions are not helpful in dealing with a medical problem. Addiction has been around for thousands of years, under a multitude of modes of education, government, religion, social organization. It is a medical problem and is best understood and treated as such, often with 12-step programs working with detox a tried and true method of dealing with an often near-intractable affliction.


12 Step programs themselves are based on spiritual principles and they have worked for tens of millions of people since the 1930s.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

regenmusic said:


> 12 Step programs themselves are based on spiritual principles and they have worked for tens of millions of people since the 1930s.


I know something about 12-step programs at close hand and how well they do work. One can certainly say they are based on spiritual principles, or on simple principles of cleaning up one's life and behavior, and taking responsibility, mostly simple common sense. I am all for them, on the grounds of simple success. What I question is J's attaching the problem of addiction to his particular ideological hobbyhorse. A boy being bullied in Ireland in 1920 in a rigidly religious school may (or may not) have later found relief in alcohol, far from the influence of atheistic professors.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

I have not idea who else will read this thread and I truly hope that my posts that do clearly violate the TofS will be deleted. But, just in case, those of you who share my beliefs, don't let my lack of argumentation and writing skills dissuade you from our shared beliefs. I know you possess a great wisdom that is more important than anyone else's supposed intelligence. Keep the faith and no matter how bleak things may seem to be, all will be made right and joyful in the end. Don't exhaust yourselves in a needless fight.

:kiss:


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

While I don't agree with Josefina's opinion that this shouldn't be discovery here, I strongly support her assertion that social, spiritual and economic factors can play a role in medical conditions. Medicine is NOT just biological... There is actually a paradigm called called the Biopsychosocial model

"The biopsychosocial model is a broad view that attributes disease outcome to the intricate, variable interaction of biological factors (genetic, biochemical, etc), psychological factors (mood, personality, behavior, etc.), and social factors (cultural, familial, socioeconomic, medical, etc.).[1] The biopsychosocial model counters the biomedical model, which attributes disease to roughly only biological factors, such as viruses, genes, or somatic abnormalities.[2] The biopsychosocial model applies to disciplines ranging from medicine to psychology to sociology; its novelty, acceptance, and prevalence vary across disciplines[3] and across cultures.[1]


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

^^^Sonata, what you post is perfectly true, and I completely agree. If everyone could come from stable homes, loving families, decent living standards, absence of crime, terror, stress, the world would be a wonderful place indeed. But, again, it is more effective to deal with addiction by working outward from a primary biomedical framework--detox the patient, get them into effective, proven rehab, and to then, or simultaneously, work outward to ameliorate the factors at play in their environment that enable relapse into addiction. As I've posted before, JosefinaHW's obsession with atheistic professors and bad philosophy as either an overarching root cause or the overarching root cause or contributor to addiction or other mental collapse or illness is just not a productive or efficacious way to approach the problem.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Strange Magic said:


> ^^^Sonata, what you post is perfectly true, and I completely agree. If everyone could come from stable homes, loving families, decent living standards, absence of crime, terror, stress, the world would be a wonderful place indeed.


Sadly, over a third of US kids now live in single-parent homes. Further, only 46% live in a home with two married heterosexual parents in their first marriage (Pew Research). Bad news, I say.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...-u-s-kids-today-live-in-a-traditional-family/


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Sonata said:


> While I don't agree with Josefina's opinion that this shouldn't be discovery here, I strongly support her assertion that social, spiritual and economic factors can play a role in medical conditions. Medicine is NOT just biological... There is actually a paradigm called called the Biopsychosocial model
> 
> "The biopsychosocial model is a broad view that attributes disease outcome to the intricate, variable interaction of biological factors (genetic, biochemical, etc), psychological factors (mood, personality, behavior, etc.), and social factors (cultural, familial, socioeconomic, medical, etc.).[1] The biopsychosocial model counters the biomedical model, which attributes disease to roughly only biological factors, such as viruses, genes, or somatic abnormalities.[2] The biopsychosocial model applies to disciplines ranging from medicine to psychology to sociology; its novelty, acceptance, and prevalence vary across disciplines[3] and across cultures.[1]


Thank you for sharing this, Sonata, it is very encouraging to know that a much more sophisticated understanding of the body and medicine is finally being recognized. I will add the name to my article alert lists.


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## Guest (Feb 13, 2018)

Sonata said:


> This is spot on. I have worked in family practice for ten years and can attest to this....and it has become more rampant in the last 3-4 years (or may be that the region in which I work is worse than previous. No surprise, it's a socioeconomically depressed area) Often people who are prescribed a short term supply of an opiate for a temporary problem call for refills, presuming that they've been given a ticket to receive opiates for any other pain they have--physical OR otherwise. Unfortunately some of my colleagues are too free and easy with the prescriptions which leads to a vicious cycle.


And, as you're no doubt aware, there is a worldwide morphine shortage.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

_Time_ Magazine, "The Opioid Diaries", 5 March 2018, Photographs: James Nachtwey

http://time.com/5170231/the-opioid-diaries/


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