# Is Beethoven eluding to his 3rd and 9th Symphonies in his 2nd Symphony?



## Boldertism (May 21, 2015)

Obviously, he couldn't have known what his 9th would have sounded like. But there are two consecutive parts in the first movement of his 2nd Symphony that, to my ear, sound like his 3rd and 9th. Almost in same vein as the 4th movement of his 9th Symphony when he "quotes" the previous three movements.

I thought this part sounded like the Eroica: 




And I thought this brief outburst sounded like the 9th:




What do you think?


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

i can see the link with the third symphony but not the ninth. The ninth came after all of those before it (obviously) including epic pieces such the fifth and the sixth, which were ground breaking original symphonies.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

My computer's sound is busted right now, but I seem to remember that a very accentuated downward arpeggio in the intro to Beethoven's second is pretty identical to the main theme in the first movement of his ninth. Such things are common of course.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

First, the word is allude, not elude.  Beethoven was always experimenting, poking around, and generally trying new things -- and often went back and picked up something he tried earlier and elaborated upon it. Not really a big deal.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I like to think of those types of incidents as "musical gestures" though I have no idea if that's an official musical term. They are fun to find. I can't listen on this computer at work, but I'll be checking the links out at home.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

The similarities are trivial. The first passage is vaguely similar to one from a transitional theme in the first movement of the Eroica, because of the descending woodwind figures (Is that the passage you meant?). The second passage just outlines a D minor triad in a descending pattern, but the chord tones on which it settles (fifth of chord versus root) are different, as is the rest of the actual note pattern. It is loud and the orchestration is similar because it is a tutti passage and classical tuttis almost always sound similar — everyone massed on the same pitches. So, no allusion — which is still the wrong word, since one can allude only to that which actually exists in the present. The word you are looking for would be something like prefigure, foreshadow, or anticipate.


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## Boldertism (May 21, 2015)

EdwardBast said:


> So, no allusion - which is still the wrong word, since one can allude only to that which actually exists in the present. The word you are looking for would be something like prefigure, foreshadow, or anticipate.


That makes sense, thank you.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Boldertism said:


> That makes sense, thank you.


Sorry if my response was brusque. For what it's worth, knowing when themes of the Classical Era are intentionally related and when the similarities are coincidental is extremely difficult, since the materials of these themes often consist of simple and universally used elements like arpeggios of common chords and standard cadencial figures. Even professional theorists have run afoul of this kind of illusory similarity. Hearing the similarities you did in the passages you cited, even if they are not enough to make a case for an intentional connection on Beethoven's part, nevertheless indicate a good ear on your part. Welcome to the forum.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

I also don't think Beethoven composed the ninth thinking about the second. The composition of the ninth was a lot more complicated based on what I read and it seems it was actually intended to be something non-symphonic, even just an ode before Louis decided to make it one of the greatest symphonies ever.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

ArtMusic said:


> i can see the link with the third symphony but not the ninth. The ninth came after all of those before it (obviously) including epic pieces such the fifth and the sixth, which were ground breaking original symphonies.


This is odd because now that I can hear the examples, I hear the 9th movement 1 motifs clearly, but I'm having trouble associating the example allegedly sounding like the 3rd. What part of the 3rd is it similar to?


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## Boldertism (May 21, 2015)

EdwardBast said:


> Hearing the similarities you did in the passages you cited, even if they are not enough to make a case for an intentional connection on Beethoven's part, nevertheless indicate a good ear on your part. Welcome to the forum.


Thank you very much.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I have tried to make a similar case in the past to show Shostakovich perhaps subconsciously borrowing riffs from Beethoven. I got the same near dismissal. The notes are of course note quite the same but the rhythm and melodic directions are. I still don't find it so unlikely since Shostakovich none too subtly borrows the William Tell overture in his first symphony.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Weston said:


> I have tried to make a similar case in the past to show Shostakovich perhaps subconsciously borrowing riffs from Beethoven. I got the same near dismissal. However I still don't find it so unlikely since Shostakovich none too subtly borrows the William Tell overture in his first symphony.


Not to mention his really obvious allusion to the Moonlight Sonata at the end of his Viola Sonata--one of my favorite Shosty moments!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

EdwardBast said:


> ...knowing when themes of the Classical Era are intentionally related and when the similarities are coincidental is extremely difficult, since the materials of these themes often consist of simple and universally used elements...


Certainly, with the use of short motives, there are going to be lots of coincidences. For instance, Mendelssohn uses the "shark" motive from John Williams's "Jaws" score in the opening of his overture to Elijah. Just a coincidence, I'm sure. Well, at least Felix claimed it was!


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Weston said:


> I have tried to make a similar case in the past to show Shostakovich perhaps subconsciously borrowing riffs from Beethoven. I got the same near dismissal. The notes are of course note quite the same but the rhythm and melodic directions are. I still don't find it so unlikely since Shostakovich none too subtly borrows the William Tell overture in his first symphony.


You mean the first movement of the 15th, right? The borrowing there was not supposed to be subtle. It was an intentional, direct quotation intended to be recognized by everyone who heard it. As such, it has nothing to do with the case you cite.


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## Guest (Dec 17, 2015)

ArtMusic said:


> i can see the link with the third symphony but not the ninth. The ninth came after all of those before it (obviously) including epic pieces such the fifth and the sixth, which were ground breaking original symphonies.


I think Beethoven, having settled on his formula, just couldn't help referencing himself, and by the time you get to his 9th, he's reduced to minimalism; he was clearly scared that the more he expanded his motifs, the more likely he was to be accused of self-plagiarism. Listen to the 2nd movement of the 9th, and that insistent three-note figure endlessly recycled...or would it be upcycled...and how it's three time is so obviously modelled on the third movement of the third. I hope you're beginning to pick up on the mathematical formula at work here - I'm only surprised that Dan Brown hasn't written a thriller about it...Da Ludwig Code!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Ooooh you're so wrong! Rossini on the scherzo from Beethoven's ninth (from memory): "I myself could have written nothing to compare with it! The rest of the symphony lacks charm, and what is music without that?"


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Given the enormous amount of music Beethoven composed, themes, sub-themes etc., it is understandable that there might be occasional small segments in later works that remind one of those in earlier works, but, that said, I never cease to be amazed at the diversity and originality of Beethoven's output. Almost none of it is/was derivative unless it was on purpose. For instance, I can't think of any one of his 32 sonatas that reminds me of one of the others. 

Even when a few notes of a work seemed similar to a prior work, I don't think it was on purpose and my guess is that, for the most part, Beethoven, himself, wasn't aware of it.


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