# The 'lesser' Beethoven symphonies



## Gallus

By that I mean the 1st, 2nd, 4th and 8th, which are your favourite recordings of these symphonies? I've been listening to a lot of Beethoven recently and have pretty well exhausted myself in the more famous symphonies, so I'm now thinking of giving these sometimes ignored ones a listen through again. How do you think they stack up as works in their own right?


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## Larkenfield

Bruno Walter's recordings with the Columbia Symphony Orchestra excel in these symphonies. No. 1 and 2 just sparkle, and No. 4. is one of my favorite performances ever, with a wonderful and witty No. 8. Available as an inexpensive download too.

Walter performed these symphonies with a certain humanity and not just explosive bluster. It's a more philosophical and balanced sounding Beethoven than most other cycles, and I've always appreciated the difference. Beethoven rated his 8th rather highly and I happen to agree with him; it was more than just a warm-up for the 9th, and it's Beethoven in a happier, cheerful mood.

'When asked by his pupil Carl Czerny why the Eighth was less popular than the Seventh, Beethoven is said to have replied, "because the Eighth is so much better."' (!)

https://www.amazon.com/Bruno-Walter-Conducts-Beethoven/dp/B017I51J9A/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1528068653&sr=8-3&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=bruno+walter+beethoven+symphony+cd


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## KenOC

Larkenfield said:


> Bruno Walter's recordings with the Columbia Symphony Orchestra excel in these symphonies. No. 1 and 2 just sparkle, and No. 4. is one of my favorite performances ever, with a wonderful and witty No. 8. Available as an inexpensive download too...


Agree with Lark on everything, except that he didn't mention Walter's Pastoral, which some think the best available. The symphony cycle is available as remastered (and very well) by Sony as a ten-buck download, or it can be streamed for free by Prime members.

https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Vo...&qid=1528068972&sr=1-5-mp3-albums-bar-strip-0


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## Gallus

Larkenfield said:


> Bruno Walter's recordings with the Columbia Symphony Orchestra excel in these symphonies. No. 1 and 2 just sparkle, and No. 4. is one of my favorite performances ever, with a wonderful and witty No. 8. Available as an inexpensive download too.
> 
> Walter performed these symphonies with a certain humanity and not just explosive bluster. It's a more philosophical and balanced sounding Beethoven than most other cycles, and I've always appreciated the difference. Beethoven rated his 8th rather highly and I happen to agree with him; it was more than just a warm-up for the 9th, and it's Beethoven in a happier mood.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Bruno-Walter-Conducts-Beethoven/dp/B017I51J9A/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1528068653&sr=8-3&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=bruno+walter+beethoven+symphony+cd


Thanks. I like Walter's 6th so I'll definitely have a listen to these.


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## Olias

FWIW, the first symphony was the most popular of the nine during Beethoven's lifetime. My personal favorite set is here:

https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Ni...528080588&sr=8-2&keywords=Mackerras+Beethoven


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## CnC Bartok

Walter is indeed great in these "lesser" works. You can't go wrong with him (and for me especially No.4 frrom him is wonderful!). That said, there are other individual recordings that stand comparison. For me, the best No.8 is either Andre Cluytens in his Berlin cycle, or Klaus Tennstedt in London, coupled with No.6.

Nos 1 and 2 do well in HIP-style performances or proper period instruments, maybe that's just me, and maybe i cannot justify that claim. But Krivine is enlightening in both, as is Bruggen. 

No.4 is my favourite Beethoven symphony, after the less lesser No.7. The killer movement is the slow second, and if that's rushed or aggressive, it sounds terrible. I don't like No.4 done with anything other than real affection. HIP and Period instruments don't do it any favours. Kletzki, Cluytens and Jochum all get it right, which is why they are my favourite Beethoven conductors!


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## Art Rock

Gallus said:


> How do you think they stack up as works in their own right?


I quite like the 4th, for me the best of this quartet by far, and not far behind the 3d and 7th (5 and 6 are my favourites). The 8th is OK, the first two are ones I can do without.


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## Guest

8th, 1st, 2nd, 4th would be my running order. I listened to the 4th just a few days ago and I find it just doesn't do anything for me. The other three all have highlights.


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## Merl

Off the top of my head, my fave 8th is probably Markevitch. Killer account. Lots of great 4ths around (Norrington/SWR, Haitink/LSO, etc). The 8th is currently my favourite Beethoven symphony (I go through phases). Blomstedt/Dresden is a strong 4th. If you can get hold of it Thomas Fey's 1st & 2nd disc is a go-to. Wonderful traversal of both symphonies.


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## chill782002

I quite like the 4th and listen to it far more than the 1st, 2nd or 8th. Klemperer's live 1966 recording with the Berliner Philharmoniker (available on Testament) does it for me.


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## classfolkphile

I like Wand in all of these, helped by excellent sound which some others that play them well don't have (Mackerras: steely high strings, my bête noir).

In addition Vanska and Bernstein (NY) do the best 4ths I've heard (the former in great sound, the latter mediocre). Walter/Columbia SO and Haitink/LSO are also very good in both performance and sound.

I like Jochum/RCO in both 1 and 2. The first is also done well by Monteux/VPO and Karajan '62; the second by Barenboim/SB, Szell/Cleveland, Karajan '77, and Norrington/LCP. Only Barenboim has better than average sound.


For the 8th, Szell/Cleveland, Norrington/LCP, Haitink/LSO, and Barenboim/SB are my additional favorites.


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## Ras

There is a brand new recording on Decca with *Ozawa of Beethoven's 1st symphony* that I love.
Coupled with the first piano concerto played by* Argerich -* also excellent.


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## SixFootScowl

Gallus said:


> By that I mean the 1st, 2nd, 4th and 8th, which are your favourite recordings of these symphonies? I've been listening to a lot of Beethoven recently and have pretty well exhausted myself in the more famous symphonies, so I'm now thinking of giving these sometimes ignored ones a listen through again. How do you think they stack up as works in their own right?


To me the lesser include 1, 2, 4, 7, and 8. For some reason I never warmed up to 7. Maybe just need to listen more. But of those five, #4 is my favorite.


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## bharbeke

1 and 2: Abbado with the Berlin Philharmonic (Wyn Morris with the LSO is another great choice for 1 and part of an inexpensive set)
4: Osmo Vanska with Minnesota Orchestra or Chailly with Gewandhausorchester Leipzig (Chailly's whole set is pretty good)
8: Vanska or Abbado are also good here if you're getting either of their sets for the symphonies above; Szell with Cleveland Orchestra is another winner

8 is one of my favorite Beethoven symphonies, and many recordings of it have gotten it just right.


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## Merl

Ok, now I've had time to think here's a few more suggestions:

*Symphony 1*
Immerseel, Hogwood, Mackerass (RLPO), Rattle (BPO), Barenboim (Berlin Staatkapelle)
*Symphony 2*
Immerseel, Hogwood, Mackerras (SCO), Chailly, Barenboim (Berlin Staatskapelle), Norrington (SWR)
*Symphony 4*
There are MANY excellent 4ths but Szell, Karajan (63), Jarvi, Ansermet, Gardiner, Pletnev and Kletzki are particularly impressive.
*Symphony 8*
Krivine, Menuhin, Chailly, Nelson, Davis, Gardiner, Blomstedt (Dresden), Tremblay, Barenboim, Kubelik

And these guys nail all 4 - Blomstedt (Dresden), Wand, Maag and, especially, Skrowaczewski (review of this cycle to come some).


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## MarkW

My favorites are no better or worse than anyone else's.

1: Toscanini
2: Take your pick
4: Furtwangler
8: Schmidt-Isserstedt


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## Enthusiast

I love these "lesser" works as much or more than the "greater" ones and certainly more than the Choral (which I love!). There are so many really good accounts of them. Number 4 may be the most difficult to bring off - or, at least, I am far less often happy with performances of it than I am with the other three. But when it works it is wonderful.


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## mbhaub

As a bassoonist, I love and yet fear the 4th. I love listening to others play it and see if they can keep up with the tempo of the finale. But when placed in front of me...no thanks! One of the toughest licks in the literature.

I love 1. 2 a bit less. Really indifferent to 8. Totally embrace the 6th - what an astonishing creation it is. Then there's the "other" even-numbered: the 10th. Terrible disservice to the composer.


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## KenOC

Some rankings of recordings of these "lesser" symphonies, from elsewhere. YouTube refs are included for some.

Symphony No. 1 in C major, Op. 21 (composed 1799-1800, premièred 1800)
1 - Christopher Hogwood, Academy of Ancient Music
2 - Frans Bruggen, Orchestra of the 18th Century (1st recording, Phillips)
3 - John Eliot Gardiner, Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique
4 - Riccardo Chailly, Gewandhaus Orchestra Leipzig
5 - Bernard Haitink, London Symphony Orchestra
6 - Arturo Toscanini, NBC Symphony Orchestra
7 - David Zinman, Tonhalle Orchestra
8 - Eugen Jochum, Concertgebouw Orchestra
9 - Claudio Abbado, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (Rome, live, 2001)
10 - FritzReiner, Chicago Symphony Orchestra

Symphony No. 2 in D major, Op. 36 (composed 1801-02, premièred 1803)
1 - John Eliot Gardiner, Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique (Archiv)
2 - Nikolaus Harnoncourt, Chamber Orchestra of Europe
3 - René Leibowitz, Royal Philharmonic Orchestra
4 - Kurt Masur, Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra (2nd cycle)
5 - Bruno Walter, Columbia Symphony Orchestra
6 - Charles Mackerras, Scottish Chamber Orchestra
7 - Bernard Haitink, London Symphony Orchestra
8 - Frans Bruggen, Orchestra of the 18th Century (1st recording)
9 - Paavo Jarvi, Deutsche Kammerphilharmonie Bremen
10 - Emmanuel Krivine, La Chambre Philharmonique

Symphony No. 4 in B-flat major, Op. 60 (composed 1806, premièred 1807)
1 - Bruno Walter, Columbia Symphony Orchestra
2 - Pierre Monteux, London Symphony Orchestra
3 (tie) - Carlos Kleiber, Bavarian State Orchestra - 



3 (tie) - Paul Kletzki, Czech Philharmonic Orchestra - 



5 - Paavo Jarvi, Deutsche Kammerphilharmonie
6 - Arturo Toscanini, NBC Symphony
7 - Giovanni Antonini, Kammerorchester Basel
8 - Eugen Jochum, London Symphony Orchestra - http://tinyurl.com/zgfeg8s
9 (tie) - Otto Klemperer, Philharmonia Orchestra
9 (tie) - Kurt Masur, Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra 1970s - 




Symphony No. 8 in F major, Op. 93 (composed 1812, premièred 1814)
1 - Paul Kletzki, Czech Philharmonic Orchestra
2 - John Eliot Gardiner, Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique Archiv - http://tinyurl.com/gsxft9z
3 - Riccardo Chailly, Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra - 



4 - Charles Mackerras, Scottish Chamber Orchestra
5 - Nikolaus Harnoncourt, Chamber Orchestra of Europe - 



6 - Claudio Abbado, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra 2002 live
7 - Pierre Monteux, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra - 



8 - Jos van Immerseel, Anima Eterna
9 - Herbert von Karajan, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra 1963 - 



10 - Georg Solti, Chicago Symphony Orchestra


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## Heck148

Enthusiast said:


> I love these "lesser" works as much or more than the "greater" ones......Number 4 may be the most difficult to bring off - or, at least, I am far less often happy with performances of it than I am with the other three. But when it works it is wonderful.


I agree - the even numbers are really wonderful - esp 2 and 4...#5 is technically the hardest LvB symphony - the last movement requires precise unanimity in the strings at rapid tempo...of course, challenging parts for woodwinds and horns as well.
I love #2 as well - esp for the exquisite 2nd mvt, which features such beautiful woodwind writing.


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## Heck148

mbhaub said:


> As a bassoonist, I love and yet fear the 4th. I love listening to others play it and see if they can keep up with the tempo of the finale. But when placed in front of me...no thanks! One of the toughest licks in the literature.


yup, the mvt 4 lick appears on every audition...I've played it a bunch of times, and it is nervy...it's a great part throughout tho, right from the "spooky" entrances in the introduction, which so often sound "wrong", even tho it's right...



> Totally embrace the 6th - what an astonishing creation it is......


Yes, indeed, remarkable work...great fun to play - great bassoon/woodwind parts, which all "lay" quite nicely on the horn...as with 2 and 4, the clarinet/bassoon writing in "soli" is really outstanding...


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## fluteman

Larkenfield said:


> Bruno Walter's recordings with the Columbia Symphony Orchestra excel in these symphonies. No. 1 and 2 just sparkle, and No. 4. is one of my favorite performances ever, with a wonderful and witty No. 8. Available as an inexpensive download too.
> 
> Walter performed these symphonies with a certain humanity and not just explosive bluster. It's a more philosophical and balanced sounding Beethoven than most other cycles, and I've always appreciated the difference. Beethoven rated his 8th rather highly and I happen to agree with him; it was more than just a warm-up for the 9th, and it's Beethoven in a happier, cheerful mood.
> 
> 'When asked by his pupil Carl Czerny why the Eighth was less popular than the Seventh, Beethoven is said to have replied, "because the Eighth is so much better."' (!)
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Bruno-Walter-Conducts-Beethoven/dp/B017I51J9A/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1528068653&sr=8-3&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=bruno+walter+beethoven+symphony+cd


I can't agree more. This is a fantastic Beethoven symphony set. LP collectors seem to like Walter's 6th especially, but I don't know why, to me it's just one gem after another. For another great but very different set from the same era, you could try Szell and the Cleveland Orchestra. He achieves great clarity and precision (though not as perfect as legend would have it -- the idea that they always maintained perfect a=440 intonation, advanced as gospel truth in another cm forum, just isn't true) yet the result is never dull or lifeless. You just have to forget about what a [email protected] [email protected]@rd Szell apparently was.
Aside from the 9th, the Szell and Walter sets would be more than enough for me.


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## KenOC

The woodwind writing in the finale of No. 4 has been mentioned. I am not a player and never noticed this until I listened to the Rene Leibowitz performance with the Royal PO. What a fine reading, and in fact set of readings. The whole cycle is part of a big download for cheaper than a Big Mac at $2.69.

https://www.amazon.com/Genius-Beeth...&qid=1528779888&sr=1-1-mp3-albums-bar-strip-0


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## mbhaub

Heck148 said:


> #5 is technically the hardest LvB symphony - the last movement requires precise unanimity in the strings at rapid tempo...of course, challenging parts for woodwinds and horns as well.


Cannot agree with this - I've played 5 more than any of the nine - it's easier than most, I think, and even amateurs can do a decent job of it. The hardest part of 5 is trusting the conductor - does he or doesn't he have the technique to get all those first movement fermatas together? Yes, there are some hard parts, but it's Beethoven! The 1st trombone part is a killer.

Yet, #3 is just a bear for all. #7 is fiendishly difficult for the strings. #9 is not only difficult technically, but extremely tiring, too. #6 is probably the easiest overall section by section.


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## Heck148

mbhaub said:


> Cannot agree with this - I've played 5 more than any of the nine -


So sorry, I screwed up - I meant to post that *#4 is the hardest*, not #5... I don't know if I can edit the erroneous posting at this point...

should read:
<<Originally Posted by Heck148 View Post
_*#4 is technically the hardest LvB symphony* - the last movement requires precise unanimity in the strings at rapid tempo...of course, challenging parts for woodwinds and horns as well.>>_

#9 is a real endurance test..esp if all or most of the repeats are taken in mvt II. mvts I-III are really taxing, esp the slow mvt....the great finale has some challenging parts, but you actually get a break here and there!!


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## Josquin13

Heck148 writes, "#4 is technically the hardest LvB symphony - the last movement requires precise unanimity in the strings at rapid tempo...of course, challenging parts for woodwinds and horns as well.

#9 is a real endurance test..esp if all or most of the repeats are taken in mvt II. mvts I-III are really taxing, esp the slow mvt....the great finale has some challenging parts, but you actually get a break here and there!!"

That makes sense, and reminds me that I used to consider the period conductors & ensembles almost uniformly at their worst in the 4th and 9th! (& not a whole lot better in the 3rd & 5th, either). The only period 4th that has worked for me is Hogwood's, and that's largely because interpretatively he's quite close to Kletzki in the 2nd movement, which separates him from the others. The only period 9th that I've liked is Gardiner's, as none of the other period or HIP conductors were able to pull it off, IMO (& frustratingly so; nor did they have choirs as virtuosic as the Monteverdi Choir). (On the other hand, not surprisingly, the period boys excel in the strongly 'Handel influenced' 7th, & especially Immerseel, with his use of old-fashioned Viennese valveless horns and natural trumpets: which blend so wonderfully with the woodwinds and figure prominently at the end of the symphony. Indeed, only in Immerseel's performance do I hear the clopping & galloping of horses in the final movement. Everyone else misses it, or doesn't capture it to the same extent. For anyone who's curious, here's a YT link: 



 )

For the 1st--Hogwood, Bruggen 1, and Masur 1 & 2 are, for me, the conductors that best get this work's combination of Mozartian/Haydnesque beauty with its sense of humor, wit, and above all, fun.










For the 2nd--IMO, Nicholas Harnoncourt understands the intense light and dark struggle within this troubled symphony better than most, with it's surprisingly positive resolution (composed at the time of the Heiligenstadt testament, when Beethoven contemplated ending his life, due to his encroaching deafness); as does Eduard van Beinum with the Philharmonia in 1958, and Kubelik and the Concertgebouw Orchestra of Amsterdam (& live Audite). I've also liked Masur 2, Hogwood, and Nelson in this symphony.
















As for the 4th, Paul Kletzki is very fine in this work, along with Kurt Masur's first Leipzig account--one of the best 4ths I've heard. I've also liked Rafael Kubelik (with the Israel Philharmonic and Bavarian RSO), Jochum LSO, Casals, Hogwood (as mentioned), and historically, Weingartner (my 1st historical pick) and Furtwangler. I'd have to say that most of the older conductors excel in this symphony--such as Klemperer, Steinberg, Monteux, Walter, Mravinsky, Reiner, and so on.










I agree about Igor Markevitch's 8th--which I'd likewise count as one of the best. In my view, the 8th is an often misunderstood symphony. Too many conductors seem to be under the impression that after composing the final movement of the 7th, Beethoven lost his creative powers, and turned into a dull composer. They make the 8th sound like an almost stodgy imitation of Haydn. In reality, the 8th represents Beethoven's confident response to some of his critics, who wrote that he couldn't write a genuinely 'classical' or well proportioned symphony. That must have annoyed him. Well, here it is--a near perfectly proportioned symphony. It's also arguably his most joyful symphony. In addition to Markevitch, I've particularly liked John Nelson's exuberant HIP view of this work, & perhaps a tad more than Markevitch's; along with Casals Marlboro, and Jochum Concertgebouw. (Historically, Pfitzner and Furtwangler are interesting too.)


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## Heck148

If we are going to discuss the relative difficulty of Beethoven's orchestral works - IMO - the most difficult single work - as far as technical demands - has to be Leonore Ov #3...this is a real orchestral tour de force - and it features prominent, difficult licks for many instruments - these passages appear regularly on orchestra auditions - 

all strings, goes without saying - esp violins...

Trumpet - the offstage calls
Flute - big solo at recap of Allegro -main section - 
bassoon - accompanying counter melody solo to the flute


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## gellio

The 2nd, 4th, and 8th (especially the 8th) are all underrated in my opinion. The 2nd is so weird and crazy, which is why I love it.


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## SixFootScowl

Recently going through all 9 with my new Rattle VPO cycle, I am really liking the first symphony.


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