# Do you eff & blind?



## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

*Swear words* - they've always been with us. In olden times, it was religious oaths that were most frowned on - zo*nds & str*th; more recently, sexual & lavatorial, in the wrong context. Yes, it seems illogical that some words are acceptable & others for the same thing are not. But c'est la vie.

These days even children use strong swear words fairly routinely. (I know this, because our house stands beside a walking-route to two schools.) A number of issues are raised by this phenomenon - vocabulary restriction, inability to use different registers, creation of an ugly/aggressive/sexist atmosphere/ loss of innocence & so on. Some think it matters - others not.

I've also noticed that since the 1960s it's been fashionable for intellectuals to swear (in Britain; don't know about America) and it seems to me that posts containing profane language have become more common on TC just recently. The reason - I don't know! (Do you?)

I'd love to hear your views on these points, and also on your swearing habits, if you'd like to share them. It's a linguistic inquiry on my part, but I'd love to hear any funny stories or interesting angles.

Now, may I set you a *challenge*? Please, no *actual *swear words in your posts! That way, the thread just might survive and give us all *a chance* to read your interesting thoughts. The ingenuity will exercise your little grey cells and should provide a few laughs too.

Thanks in advance (I think) for any replies!


----------



## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

I voted 'only in extremity' because I usually swear only when I'm very angry with someone who shall remain nameless. 
I suppose too that I might swear if I hammered my thumb instead of a nail.

The best story I have to tell about swearing comes from when Taggart & I were youth-hostelling (walking from place to place). It was in the Welsh Marches, and many of the public footpaths crossed agricultural land. Public paths are protected by law in the UK, but the farmers didn't like hikers possibly damaging crops, so they'd do things like sow right up to the edge, obliterating the paths; or break bridges over streams, or let the brambles & nettles grow high.

Anyway, we tried to follow one path over a field, but it petered out. We guessed where it should go, and suddenly found ourselves faced with a fence. We climbed the fence, and suddenly found ourselves faced with ... an angry Welsh farmer. In his rage at finding tourists in his farmyard, he effed and blinded, then realised that he'd spoken strong language 'in the presence of a lady'! At once, he apologised, and couldn't have been more charming, helping us to find a disused railway line, telling us stories of the locality. In this case, thank goodness for old-fashioned taboos - which probably no longer exist.


----------



## EricABQ (Jul 10, 2012)

This reminds me of a story from my Navy days. 

My job on the ship at the time was to do tape backups of databases at the end of each day. The tape machines were old and unreliable, which lead to me having repeated temper tantrums. One day my division chief (who was quite religious) was in the shop at the time when I referred to the tape machine as a -word that rhymes with bucking- piece of - word that rhymes with spit.

She then said to me, "petty officer Smith*, you know my rule about profanity in the work place." I said, "I know, but I didn't use any profanity." Her: "Yes you did, I just heard you." Me: "oh, no, you are incorrect. -word that rhymes with bucking- is an obscenity and -word that rhymes with spit- is a vulgarity, neither are profanities."

She was not as amused with my defense as I was.

Now, I should point out that I got that defense from a book I had read where the protagonist used it in some circumstance I cant' remember. I also don't remember the book, but I liked that exchange so I was very excited to get to use it in real life.

*not my real name.


----------



## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

I use obscenities/vulgarities as the occasion warrants, not otherwise. I say 'not otherwise' because the 'ing' form of the eff-word is a much used meaning-free adjective in the armed forces, and when I was in I conformed with SOP.

BTW the F in FUBAR is not meaning-free.


----------



## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

I've found (driving) an automobile is the primary culprit for my blue language. Playing dodge-car with idiots, or admiring curves. That's all. I'm a perfect gentleman otherwise. :tiphat:


----------



## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

There seems to be a tendency to call a spade an £$%^ shovel. Going along with that is a tendency to use dyphemisms - the opposite of euphemisms - both as a way of marking social groupings and as a way of offending others, in an attempt to seem "edgy".

We were taught that "bad language" represented a failure to communicate properly. An educated person could put their meaning across, with any desired degree of offence, without resorting to vulgarity. If all else failed, one could always retreat to the decent obscurity of Latin. Nowadays, it is seems necessary to be in touch with "popular culture" which apparently means using vulgar expressions whenever possible regardless of their suitability. This seems to be a lazy way of speaking - inserting *&^% or whatever rather than seeking a suitable epithet to describe one's feelings.


----------



## EricABQ (Jul 10, 2012)

I'm a bit of a virtuoso when it comes to cussing at electronic devices that don't work exactly the way they are advertised to work.

You should have heard what I called my printer this past weekend. Even my wife was impressed with the collection of words I strung together to express my displeasure.


----------



## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

I worked in the transport biz and it was common, but I think its effectiveness is diminished by overuse. Especially if you want to be humourous. Example: John B. Keane, the Irish playwright, told the tale of when he was in Dublin going for a swim in the Forty Foot with Brendan Behan, the author. It was a freezing cold day and John looked at the water a little warily, but Brendan removed his robe and strode towards the shore with these words: here goes f*** all.

Now, Keane told that story to highlight the effectiveness of a good oath, particularly in a man who didn't overdo it. Punctuating every sentence with swear words is an abuse of language - and an abuse of the people who are suffering it. I would use swear words rarely, and try not to use them at all around women. I know, I'm a sexist old fart, but it's the way I see things...


----------



## Pennypacker (Jul 30, 2013)

Yeah, a lot. Especially in Russian where it's practically an art form (not with my parents though). By intensity of use: 3. With friends 2. When I'm driving 1. In the army.


----------



## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

I don't swear all that often, and when I do, it's only within the company of friends (i.e. my mixed-gender group of friends). And it usually only happens when I'm angry, but sometimes it's just for emphasis. Like in that dubstep song "Mind Control" by Zomboy when right before the drop, the voice says "it's f----- Zomboy"; I don't think it could fit better than it it does there 

Either way, I'm an amateur linguist and plan on studying linguistics in college. Because of that, I don't make too many value-judgments about the words people use. The only thing swearing a lot means is that you swear a lot. I know people of high intelligence who do, people of wealth, older adults, etc. Swearing _at_ people is a different matter; to me, that is always rude; but if someone casually swears, I probably won't care and I might not even notice.


----------



## Fermat (Jul 26, 2013)

I use the f-word a fair amount. Sexual vulgarisms and slang also find their way into my speech. That kind of talk is pretty common for the people I hang out with. 

No slurs or anything close. Not a fan of hate. 

I'm usually pretty good about turning the bad language off when in public or in the presence of those that might be offended.


----------



## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

Our attitudes have changed dramatically from 1939, when Woody Guthrie wrote this:



> It was in the town of Shawnee,
> A Saturday afternoon,
> His wife beside him in his wagon
> As into town they rode.
> ...


No swearing in front of *my* wife, thank you.


----------



## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Taggart said:


> We were taught that "bad language" represented a failure to communicate properly. An educated person could put their meaning across, with any desired degree of offence, without resorting to vulgarity. If all else failed, one could always retreat to the decent obscurity of Latin.


A funny thing about that. If you look at translations of Greek literature from between around the 1890s to 1920s, you'll find that the more racy parts are translated into Latin. I've seen the same thing with Catullus, Ovid, or Martial: everything is in English, but the grossest indecencies are in Italian! I found it amusing--and it helped with my Italian :lol:


----------



## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Unfortunately there´s a tendency among youth in my country to use English-language swearing, in particular the f-word, just to underline any expressed meaning. This to a degree that will probably shock many people not used to it, and primarily derived from popular international movies & culture. Since it is being done in a foreign language, they don´t consider the effect it can have. Basically it´s an impoverishment of language, and immature. I apologize to visitors here in advance!


----------



## techniquest (Aug 3, 2012)

Yes, I do. But I'm choosy. I would never swear at colleagues or services & companies that I might need to discuss an issue with, and this can be enfuriating with the service/company as they find that they have no justification for hanging up on me if I am at all times reasonable while their incompentance gets more and more evident.
'Bad language' is so transient however: where I live the 'f' word has lost most of it's power and can be simply a link word in everyday conversation, whereas the 'n' word has attained a huge amount of status and is absoultely forbidden, it being the worst word you can possibly say - even worse than the 'c' word. How things change.


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I don't use that stuff. It' requires more cleverness to come up with a nonoffensive expletive, so this is another way to keep exercising my brain before it wears out.


----------



## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

I like the idea of cursing without profanity. 
Dr Johnson, one of my literary heroes, lived in the eighteenth century, a time of the most exquisite manners mixed with the grossest coarseness. London 'low-life' then would make us blench. When asked for the greatest insult he could think of, he came up with, 'Your mother, sir, under pretence of keeping a bawdy-house, is a receiver of stolen goods!' 

And of course there's the famous Chinese curse, 'May you live in *interesting* times!': times of peace & prosperity, for historians, are just *so* boring...


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

all the time - at harebrained youtube comments.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Rarely in English, more commonly is Finnish, but still only in extremity. (Why Finnish? I don't know...)


----------



## cwarchc (Apr 28, 2012)

I voted hardly ever
In my youth, when I worked in a truck workshop with 30 other guys, it was the "normal" accepted way of speech
However never outside the workshop
I have never used bad language in front of my boys, very rarely in front of the wife
I would feel as though I had let myself down if I did
However, it appears to be the "norm" as the youngsters in our office feel that it is acceptable to talk in this way


----------



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

I always swear in front of women, (well myself), but I try not to in front of my younger daughter (my elder daughter seems to swear like a trouper, she moves in theatrical circles where it seems the norm). My language degenerated terribly when at the age of 15, I was packed off to an all-boys' school, it's never quite recovered. 

However I simply cannot see why swearing in front of women is wrong, but in front of men it IS acceptable. Either it is acceptable, or it isn't.


----------



## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

I see where you're coming from - but I personally would feel uneasy & demeaned if (as has happened very occasionally) the f and c words are spoken by men in front of me. (It's probably my age. I also don't mind being referred to as a lady or having a door opened for me!  )

Acceptable, either/or? I think swearing, like many things, comes in shades of grey. For many people, it really depends on the context. 

:tiphat: Glad to have your opinion, tho. I'm interested to see how language is changing in modern times.


----------



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Ingenue said:


> I see where you're coming from - but I personally would feel uneasy & demeaned if (as has happened very occasionally) the f and c words are spoken by men in front of me. (It's probably my age. I also don't mind being referred to as a lady or having a door opened for me!  )
> 
> Acceptable, either/or? I think swearing, like many things, comes in shades of grey. For many people, it really depends on the context.
> 
> :tiphat: Glad to have your opinion, tho. I'm interested to see how language is changing in modern times.


Yes, one's age probably does have something to do with it. The f word seems to have lost its potency to me (I'm half a generation younger than you). The c word is used freely by my daughter and her contemporaries, but it makes me reel. What would NOT matter to me is whether it's a male or female uttering these words.


----------



## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Rarely in English, more commonly is Finnish, but still only in extremity. (Why Finnish? I don't know...)


Maybe you only curse when you Finnish a sentence?


----------



## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I almost never use swear words except when discussing the words themselves. I'm generally fine with others using them as long as they are used in anger. Many people include them in regular speech, and I find that annoying because the words either have no meaning or there are much more descriptive words that would convey better meanings.


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Kieran said:


> Maybe you only curse when you Finnish a sentence?


boo-boom-tch! I hate to break it to you, but that was terrible :lol:


----------



## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

deggial said:


> boo-boom-tch! I hate to break it to you, but that was terrible :lol:


:lol: Effin' awful, eh?


----------



## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

I avoid it in my daily speech. 
But I will use them when I'm really angry.


----------



## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

mamascarlatti said:


> I always swear in front of women, (well myself), but I try not to in front of my younger daughter (my elder daughter seems to swear like a trouper, she moves in theatrical circles where it seems the norm). My language degenerated terribly when at the age of 15, I was packed off to an all-boys' school, it's never quite recovered.
> 
> However I simply cannot see why swearing in front of women is wrong, but in front of men it IS acceptable. Either it is acceptable, or it isn't.


I know the spelling of the phrase "swear like a trooper" can vary and I'm not sure if there's a subtle pun in there somewhere. William Corbett used it about the Americans -"Women got drunk and swore like troopers." - 'A Year's Residence in the United States of America'. He felt that it was inappropriate for women to behave like cavalry soldiers and equally that they should be shielded from such rude behaviour. The point is that in difficult circumstances, men may be allowed the odd slip, in the absence of ladies. Reminds one of Wellington's comments on his troops - "I don't know what effect these men will have on the enemy, but by God, they terrify me".


----------



## Garlic (May 3, 2013)

I have no problem with swearing as long as it doesn't demean any particular group of people. I find the negative use of words like "gay" and "retarded" much more offensive than swearwords like those that begin with f and s (why is it ok to say "the f-word" but not to actually say it? we all know what we mean). I don't believe in treating women like delicate flowers either so I won't censor myself. In our generation the girls swear just as much as the boys.


----------



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Taggart said:


> I know the spelling of the phrase "swear like a trooper" can vary and I'm not sure if there's a subtle pun in there somewhere.


My unconscious getting the better of my spelling!


----------



## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Garlic said:


> ... (why is it ok to say "the f-word" but not to actually say it? we all know what we mean). I don't believe in treating women like delicate flowers either so I won't censor myself. In our generation the girls swear just as much as the boys.


...because some of us find the sound of the word ugly & aggressive, showing an 'in-your-face' attitude from the speaker, as opposed to a quiet courtesy in avoiding the saying of it. The 'some of us' are generally older and/or women.

This illustrates very well how things are changing and that there's a 'generation gap' as regards swearing, and the behaviour and treatment of females. 
So thanks for the point, Garlic!


----------



## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

I a well endowed chunk of profanities in my spoken language! I believe they bring colour and emphasis to Your language and they would not have been invented unless they where immensely useful, and anyway, in my humble experience people a shun away from or are deliberately afraid of profanities are usually sanctimonious rather then pious! 

/ptr


----------



## Garlic (May 3, 2013)

Ingenue said:


> ...because some of us find the sound of the word ugly & aggressive, showing an 'in-your-face' attitude from the speaker, as opposed to a quiet courtesy in avoiding the saying of it. The 'some of us' are generally older and/or women.
> 
> This illustrates very well how things are changing and that there's a 'generation gap' as regards swearing, and the behaviour and treatment of females.
> So thanks for the point, Garlic!


I would feel uncomfortable swearing in front of my parents or someone the same age or older than them. As mentioned earlier, there does seem to have been a shift with sexual, scatological and religious swearwords becoming more acceptable and racial epithets becoming less so. I think this is mostly a positive change, but I'm not entirely consistent. There are words that make me very uncomfortable, like those beginning with c and b, but plenty of others my age have no problem with them.


----------



## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

ptr said:


> I a well endowed chunk of profanities in my spoken language! I believe they bring colour and emphasis to Your language and they would not have been invented unless they where immensely useful, and anyway, in my humble experience people a shun away from or are deliberately afraid of profanities are usually sanctimonious rather then pious!
> 
> /ptr


Sorry to hear you know so many sanctimonious types! But there are many reasons for people not liking swearing, so are you sure? :devil:

For example, many posters have said how younger women 'swear with the best' (trying to be 'one of the boys'?) and have no problem even with sexual swear-words used in their presence. That actually goes against my *feminist* principles: I think interaction between the sexes should be kept free of suggestiveness (unless it's a sexual interaction!) & kept on a neutral & professional linguistic base. That, to my mind, is treating females as 'reasonable people', not delicate flowers. And using Christian religious swearwords in the presence of Christians is just not being considerate of the feelings of others, imo.

One can come at this topic from so many angles; which is interesting...


----------



## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Garlic said:


> I have no problem with swearing as long as it doesn't demean any particular group of people. I find the negative use of words like "gay" and "retarded" much more offensive than swearwords like those that begin with f and s (why is it ok to say "the f-word" but not to actually say it? we all know what we mean). I don't believe in treating women like delicate flowers either so I won't censor myself. In our generation the girls swear just as much as the boys.


In most "cussin' cases" those c-f-s words are adjectives and convey no meaning. Otherwise the phrase 'effing light bulb' would raise questions,eh? When employed as a noun though, they are insults. Insults are challenges among non-friends... .

In what passes for polite society in my neck of the woods, groups of women and men tend to utilize those filler adjectives when not in 'mixed company'.


----------



## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

One of the joys of the bad language taboo, for children and for adults, is the ability to "bend the rules" - I remember being at a folk concert when the singer introduced a song with a chorus:

take out your dinghy 
and do your own thingie 
and sail up that far canal

the last two word of the last line were then repeated. Everything went well, until we launched into the chorus (with gusto) and then realised what exactly we were singing. The audience collapsed with laughter.

A similar result can be achieved by singing "What lovely fish are soles", again repeating the last two words for emphasis.

Once you accept the casual use of bad language, you lose the pleasure of these simple language games.


----------



## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Some daft jingles (to be repeated faster & faster) from my 1950s British childhood:

Polish it behind the door.
Chase a bug around a tree.
I'll get his blood - he knows I will.

We only knew the mild words in any case!


----------



## violadude (May 2, 2011)

I swear mostly when I'm angry or sometimes used sparingly when I'm trying to be funny.

I don't see any moral problem with swearing and I don't judge people badly who swear. 

Swear words can be used effectively to emphasize certain points but a lot of people overkill swear words and the word loses its meaning and the core of what they are trying to say gets lost and jumbled up between all the swearing.

So I do sort of have a problem with too much swearing but only in terms of practicality and communication. It's annoying if done too much.


----------



## cwarchc (Apr 28, 2012)

ptr said:


> I a well endowed chunk of profanities in my spoken language! I believe they bring colour and emphasis to Your language and they would not have been invented unless they where immensely useful, and anyway, in my humble experience people a shun away from or are deliberately afraid of profanities are usually sanctimonious rather then pious!
> 
> /ptr


Sorry ptr, but I have to disagree here.
I'm neither sanctimonious or pious
It's how I've been brought up
manners were drummed into me
I was taught that " you never swear in front of a lady " from being a small child
I also don't think that it's right to teach your children to swear. They'll pick that up with no help from me:lol:


----------



## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

Garlic said:


> I have no problem with swearing as long as it doesn't demean any particular group of people. I find the negative use of words like "gay" and "retarded" much more offensive than swearwords like those that begin with f and s (why is it ok to say "the f-word" but not to actually say it? we all know what we mean). I don't believe in treating women like delicate flowers either so I won't censor myself. In our generation the girls swear just as much as the boys.


Agreed. I find slurs like that much more offensive, though I'm sure there are some people who would use ethnic and other slurs frequently but would flip out if someone said the f-word...


----------



## mstar (Aug 14, 2013)

No, I think cursing is both improper and disturbing. Take the literal meanings of them - bad. 

Though I will be honest here, I feel like nobody reads my posts, but people apparently do, though even so I feel so lonely on TC sometimes....


----------



## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

My option is not on the list

Never...............ever


----------



## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Interestingly, a number of people distinguish between behavior towards men and towards women. I was basically taught it's wrong to distinguish such behaviors. If something is wrong towards a woman, it's also wrong towards a man. I think that has been a major change in how society has viewed the sexes over time.


----------



## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

mmsbls said:


> Interestingly, a number of people distinguish between behavior towards men and towards women. I was basically taught it's wrong to distinguish such behaviors. If something is wrong towards a woman, it's also wrong towards a man. I think that has been a major change in how society has viewed the sexes over time.


You may be reading too much into 'wrong', or its grayscale. I consider cussin in mixed company to be impolite, which is not a dark shade of gray.


----------



## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

Vesteralen said:


> My option is not on the list
> 
> Never...............ever


Captain.
Bad language or abuse,
I never, never use,
Whatever the emergency;
Though "bother it" I may
Occasionally say,
I never use a big, big D -

Chorus.
What, never?

Captain.
No, never!

Chorus.
What, never?

Captain.
Hardly ever!

Chorus.
Hardly ever swears a big, big D -
Then give three cheers, and one cheer more,
For the well-bred Captain of the Pinafore!
Then give three cheers, and one cheer more,
For the Captain of the Pinafore!


----------



## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

Taggart said:


> Captain.
> Bad language or abuse,
> I never, never use,
> Whatever the emergency;
> ...


Man.....I wish I had thought of that!


----------



## mstar (Aug 14, 2013)

Taggart said:


> Captain.
> Bad language or abuse,
> I never, never use,
> Whatever the emergency;
> ...











....................... Poor captain.


----------



## Pyotr (Feb 26, 2013)

As an habitual golfer, I let out an occasional bleep . Like on Wednesday when I was having a good round but ended up with a seven on the last hole(triple bogey). Perfect drive, second shot landed 15 feet from pin although just off the green, short chip, next chip rolls off the green, three putts. bleep! 87.

Selected "Only in extremity"


----------



## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Pyotr said:


> As an habitual golfer, I let out an occasional bleep . Like on Wednesday when I was having a good round but ended up with a seven on the last hole(triple bogey). Perfect drive, second shot landed 15 feet from pin although just off the green, short chip, next chip rolls off the green, three putts. bleep! 87.
> 
> Selected "Only in extremity"


hahaha--great punchline. I doubt it's the only "like" you'll get.

By the way, it occurs to me that the _word_ "like" is more often abused than any swear word, in my experience.


----------



## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

I @#^! never &#* cuss $^@!%.


----------



## Pyotr (Feb 26, 2013)

Celloman said:


> I @#^! never &#* cuss $^@!%.


no never? .


----------



## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Swearing has become something of an art form for me. 

When something in my studio isn't coming out as I envisioned my wife may hear me burst out, "F*** you, you f***ing f*** of a f***!!!" While when things are going great, I can split adjectives with my profanity of choice: "Fan-f***-ing-tastic!" Like others have suggested, driving can bring out my worst with regards to profanity... yet I can shut it off on a moment's notice. I think I slipped once or twice in all my 15 years teaching... and I never swore in front of my parents. I remember (vividly) flinching when a friend of mine said s*** in front of my father... and I was probably 25+ at the time.


----------



## mstar (Aug 14, 2013)

Blancrocher said:


> hahaha--great punchline. I doubt it's the only "like" you'll get.
> 
> By the way, it occurs to me that the _word_ "like" is more often abused than any swear word, in my experience.


Oooh, that's like, so true! Like, I don't know, like, how you could like say stuff like better than, like, Blan-like-crocher! Like, I knooooow!


----------

