# Tchaikovsky - Romeo and Juliet (Fantasy Overture)



## HansZimmer (11 mo ago)

How do you rate this piece?


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Very popular, but not my favorite Tchaikovsky by a wide margin. I've never really understood why conductors like to do it so much, either.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

R&J is one of the few Tchaikovsky works I greatly enjoy - excellent.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

When will you create a poll about a Schoenberg or Ligeti work?


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

I voted 'very good', but it doesn't quite reach the heights of _Francesca da rimini_ or _The Voyevoda_ for example.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Text (6/6)
Design (6/6)
Being a blocky fruit (2/6)
*__*
4.66/6


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

One of the hallmark pieces of Tchaikovsky and a very popular work of classical music. I believe that he wanted to expose obliquely his repressed homossexuality in this work (as, I also believe, in symphonies 5 and _Pathétique_). The love theme has been a personal favorite since my early days with the genre. Profound and excellent in my view. It's an 8.5/10 in terms of how much I enjoy it.


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## Lisztianwagner (2 mo ago)

Excellent; it's not precisely my favourite Tchaikovsky's work, nonetheless it has a splendid orchestration and I find it very passionate and beautifully lyrical, so powerful and intense in some passages!


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## Lisztianwagner (2 mo ago)

Neo Romanza said:


> When will you create a poll about a Schoenberg or Ligeti work?


I concur, good idea!


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

Excellent, although I have to admit I do not listen to his tone poems and overtures as frequently as I listen to his symphonies and concertos.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

haziz said:


> Excellent, although I have to admit I do not listen to his tone poems and overtures as frequently as I listen to his symphonies and concertos.


What about his chamber, operas, songs and solo piano music? All of which he wrote remarkably well.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Just excellent I prefer Muti conducting.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Needs a performance which really goes for it (I've heard one or two utterly bloodless recordings which make the whole thing far too polite) but in the right hands it's one of my preferred Tchaikovsky pieces. I voted Very Good.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Xisten267 said:


> One of the hallmark pieces of Tchaikovsky and a very popular work of classical music. I believe that he wanted to expose obliquely his *repressed homosexuality* in this work (as, I also believe, in symphonies 5 and _Pathétique_). The love theme has been a personal favorite since my early days with the genre. Profound and excellent in my view. It's an 8.5/10 in terms of how much I enjoy it.


Repressed? Not if you were to ask certain poets, bathhouse attendants, cabbies, and random men in the parks of St. Petersburg. I guess you haven't seen his letters and diaries?


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## Scherzi Cat (8 mo ago)

Neo Romanza said:


> When will you create a poll about a Schoenberg or Ligeti work?


Yes, he should definitely do that so I can finally vote “horrible” on something. 

Tchaikovsky’s R&J is excellent. I think some here have a lesser opinion of it because it is do popular, overplayed, and gushing with emotion. But it deserves the attention, imo, among Tchaikovsky’s best.

This is one that I still go back to Solti on:


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Well, he and also-gay brother Modest did refer to their "affliction" as the "love that dares not speak its name". Here's one for you related to topic: almost 50 years ago I was taking taking a music class at university. The subject of the day was this very Romeo and Juliet. The extremely pompous instructor started conducting along with the record at the big love tune, acting like a total bozo. He then declared "No one can possibly understand this or conduct it if he has never made love to a woman". My 20 year-old smart mouth instantly retorted "what did Tchaikovsky know? He was a ***." Now please understand that in the 70s that term was acceptable, although to be so blunt in a college class was perhaps a bit out of line. I got a lot - and I mean a lot - of laughs and applause. That professor never, ever forgave me for that faux pas. He tried, quite unsuccessfully, to derail my academic career, but since I was really in the Math Dept he couldn't do much.


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## HansZimmer (11 mo ago)

Xisten267 said:


> I believe that he wanted to expose obliquely his repressed homossexuality in this work (as, I also believe, in symphonies 5 and _Pathétique_).


Uhm...why???


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## HansZimmer (11 mo ago)

EdwardBast said:


> Repressed? Not if you were to ask certain poets, bathhouse attendants, cabbies, and random men in the parks of St. Petersburg. I guess you haven't seen his letters and diaries?


I read somehwere that the russian government was trying to hide the truth, is this true? When and how exactly?


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## HansZimmer (11 mo ago)

mbhaub said:


> He then declared "No one can possibly understand this or conduct it if he has never made love to a woman". My 20 year-old smart mouth instantly retorted "what did Tchaikovsky know? He was a ***."


This statement is also very much focused on the perspective of Romeo. The women will probably look at the love theme from the perspective of Juliet.

Maybe Tchaikovsky was thinking about Romeo.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

This is one of the great Romantic works of the 19th century, a virtual symphony in 20 minutes! With works like this and the Piano Concerto #1 and Violin Concerto #1, Tchaikovsky may just be the epitome of CM Romanticism!. A young Elizabeth Taylor apparently thought so.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Of course all of the previous discussion was based on Tchaikovsky's 2nd version of R&J. Balakirev rejected the composer's original verion and the inexperienced Tchaikovsky caved and re-wrote the work we know. But what abouthe original? Does everyone know it? Here it is. Comment.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

mbhaub said:


> Of course all of the previous discussion was based on Tchaikovsky's 2nd version of R&J. Balakirev rejected the composer's original verion and the inexperienced Tchaikovsky caved and re-wrote the work we know. But what abouthe original? Does everyone know it? Here it is. Comment.


Good thing he rewrote it. The ending, among other things rather…sucks.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

HansZimmer said:


> I read somehwere that the russian government was trying to hide the truth, is this true? When and how exactly?


For a long time scandalous stuff was routinely excluded in editions of his letters and diaries. I'm not sure about government actions to suppress this aspect of Tchaikovsky's life, but it wouldn't surprise me given the homophobia and anti-gay tendencies of the current administration. It would presumably be uncomfortable to acknowledge the sexuality of such a well-known national hero. I've had long exchanges with two (or maybe one, since it might have been the same person under two names) TC members from Russia who seemed oblivious to his homosexuality and who vigorously disputed it until I quoted passages from letters and diaries. I'm not sure if their lack of good information was due to censorship or just to poor access to sources.


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## Xenophiliu (Jan 2, 2022)

mbhaub said:


> Of course all of the previous discussion was based on Tchaikovsky's 2nd version of R&J. Balakirev rejected the composer's original verion and the inexperienced Tchaikovsky caved and re-wrote the work we know. But what abou the original? Does everyone know it? Here it is. Comment.


I like the earlier attempt well enough, but its musical arc is quite different from his revised version. My preferred recording is that by Geoffrey Simon.


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## HansZimmer (11 mo ago)

EdwardBast said:


> For a long time scandalous stuff was routinely excluded in editions of his letters and diaries. I'm not sure about government actions to suppress this aspect of Tchaikovsky's life, but it wouldn't surprise me given the homophobia and anti-gay tendencies of the current administration. It would presumably be uncomfortable to acknowledge the sexuality of such a well-known national hero. I've had long exchanges with two (or maybe one, since it might have been the same person under two names) TC members from Russia who seemed oblivious to his homosexuality and who vigorously disputed it until I quoted passages from letters and diaries. I'm not sure if their lack of good information was due to censorship or just to poor access to sources.


I found the article I had read: Was Tchaikovsky gay? How Russia spent a century hiding the composer's sexuality


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

mbhaub said:


> Of course all of the previous discussion was based on Tchaikovsky's 2nd version of R&J. Balakirev rejected the composer's original verion and the inexperienced Tchaikovsky caved and re-wrote the work we know. But what abouthe original? Does everyone know it? Here it is. Comment.


https://youtu .be/eDu5EvrWpss?t=743

Adventure theme! Orchestration reminds me of one of Tchaikovsky's greatest movements. https://youtu .be/3o-Qhhm_bLA


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

EdwardBast said:


> Repressed? Not if you were to ask certain poets, bathhouse attendants, cabbies, and random men in the parks of St. Petersburg. I guess you haven't seen his letters and diaries?


But his letters and diares were private, weren't they? I remember to have read somewhere that publicly expressing homossexuality was forbidden in Russian at the time of Tchaikovsky's life, otherwise one could end up have to live the rest of his days in Siberia. He must have suffered for having to hide his sexuality, and an evidence I can give you of this is that he even tried to marry a woman at some point of his life, what later became a disastrous experience for both him and his wife.



HansZimmer said:


> Uhm...why???


Because the expression of individual emotions is a key aspect of Romanticism (not only in music), and because I think it's likely therefore that Tchaikovsky, a romantic artist par excellence, must have at some point tried to express his struggle with his sexuality in his music. _Romeo and Juliet_ is a story of forbidden love, and it would be - in my opinion - the perfect argument for Tchaikovsky to obliquely express his own history of repressed love.


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