# Mahler 9



## Mark60

In the first movement of Mahler's Ninth Symphony in D, there is a theme (



 at about 5:45) which reminds me very closely the oboe theme in the tail of the last time of the Titan (



). And you?


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## Delicious Manager

Well, well, well! Now you mention it, they DO resemble each other very closely. Of course Mahler's style is such that his melodies have a very distinctive Mahler character and so one can find similarities throughout his works. 

This is one that hadn't entered my consciousness, however.


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## Mark60

it is as an ideal link that binds the end of the first symphony at the beginning of the last. Although Mahler had not foreseen that the ninth would be the last (completed)....


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## Vaneyes

Early on, Mahler was locked into a mission and remained so until he died. Subconscious and childhood memory were the crux of Mahler compositions. Even with new life experiences, his distinct voice was formed and unshakable. You could probably play his nine symphonies in chronological order without a break, and not sense any substantial re-direction.


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## Kopachris

Vaneyes said:


> You could probably play his nine symphonies in chronological order without a break, and not sense any substantial re-direction.


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## Vaneyes

Kopachris said:


>


As I vaguely recall, a Mahler symphonies marathon in Europe was done with piano. More than one pianist.


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## Jeremy Marchant

Vaneyes said:


> You could probably play his nine symphonies in chronological order without a break, and not sense any substantial re-direction.


Isn't it useful to consider the 9 (10) symphonies as constituting one huge meta-symphony:

First movement: nos 1-4, the _Wunderhorn_ works (the big first movement, as exemplified by those of 2 and 3)
Second movment: nos 5-7, symphonies of transformation (the scherzo)
Third movement: no 8, the voyage into the unconscious
Fourth movment: _Das Lied von der Erde_, nos 9-10 (the extended dying, as exemplified by the last movements of _Das Lied_ and 9)

The other vocal works are all appendices and prequels


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## TxllxT

I do not hear so much Freudian references in Mahler's symphonies as I do hear someone of Jewish faith forcing himself to become 'Catholic' (in order to make a Habsburg empire career), who regrets this selfimposed superficiality all his life and is searching back to his roots for redemption. Freud I interpret in the same manner: Ego vs. Superego is intrinsically Jewish.


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## PhillipPark

The theme vaguely reminds me of Wagner's _Siegfried Idyll_


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## mleghorn

Absolutely! I've noticed this too. I believe that theme is somewhat autobiographical, i.e. it represents Mahler, while the other main theme in the first movement of the 9th represents nature. The Mahler theme is used throughout the movement. Note how in the climax in the middle of the movement, it comes before a violent crashing, and then the nature theme takes over (the nature theme opens the piecet) with a vengeance, i.e. brass blaring at ear-shattering volume. The movement ends with the two themes (Mahler vs. nature) being in harmony with each other. That's how I see it anyway 

I've been disappointed several times as I've heard experts (e.g. Benjamin Zander and Michael Tilson Thomas) wax poetic about the first movement of the 9th without mentioning how it uses a theme from the last movement of Mahler's 1st -- and the significance of it.


Mark60 said:


> In the first movement of Mahler's Ninth Symphony in D, there is a theme (
> 
> 
> 
> at about 5:45) which reminds me very closely the oboe theme in the tail of the last time of the Titan (
> 
> 
> 
> ). And you?


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## Ukko

mleghorn said:


> [...]
> The movement ends with the two themes (Mahler vs. nature) being in harmony with each other. That's how I see it anyway
> 
> I've been disappointed several times as I've heard experts (e.g. Benjamin Zander and Michael Tilson Thomas) wax poetic about the first movement of the 9th without mentioning how it uses a theme from the last movement of Mahler's 1st -- and the significance of it.


There you have your answer: "the significance of it". Perhaps Zander and MTT accept the Mahler 'leitmotif' as a common characteristic of his music, and so of highly diluted significance?

The 'problem' I see about waxing poetic re any part of the 9th is that it has high potential as a _work-in-progress_. Mahler never got to hear it, nor conduct it. IMO the chances are very good that he would have made modifications; the outer parts and the inner parts don't meld very well as is.

[attention moderators: there is no available emoticon representing the warding off of blows]

:tiphat:


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