# Beethoven's 10th and 11th Symphonies



## scratchgolf

Let's suppose two brand new symphonies were discovered. Both composed by Beethoven, simultaneously to the Late String Quartets. Both hidden away until now. You have a chance to attend the premier of both, on the same evening, and enjoy any recordings of them from here forward. The only catch is you forfeit any future listenings or performances of the 9th. Basically trade a masterpiece for two unknowns. Would you make the trade?

Note. This has nothing to do with Barry Cooper


----------



## Art Rock

Since I dislike the 9th, the choice is easy.


----------



## DaDirkNL

I think I would trade. New is always better. Except for a lot of other occasions.


----------



## ptr

No doubt! Beethoven's late string quartets are much more interesting then the bleak ninth and to hear two unknown later LvB symphonies in their vain would resurrect him as a symphonist in my eyes... :devil:

/ptr


----------



## KenOC

Well, I'd go hear the new symphonies. But I'd cheat, too. Count on it.


----------



## PetrB

While I am a fairly keen fan, I am not a strong enough fan to care either way about any hypothetical works. 
(Hell, I don't even care about about hypothetical works of composers I am completely crazy about 

P.s. Yeah, I know. I'm no fun at all :-/


----------



## Blake

I guess it could be a fun fantasy for some people, but it seems like a waste of time when there are so many actually masterpieces to which you can direct your energy towards. 

But yes, I would trade... Now, back to focusing on music that's actually been produced. :tiphat:


----------



## scratchgolf

PetrB said:


> While I am a fairly keen fan, I am not a strong enough fan to care either way about any hypothetical works.
> (Hell, I don't even care about about hypothetical works of composers I am completely crazy about
> 
> P.s. Yeah, I know. I'm no fun at all :-/


I think you're a little fun. This is obviously just for fun. I was considering it earlier and my imagination got the best of me. It would be amazing though to discover lost works from one of the titans of music.


----------



## Bulldog

There's no way I would give up what I consider the greatest symphony ever written. I can understand the assumption that the two newer symphonies would be even better, but that's not an assumption I'm willing to own.


----------



## Blake

There's no way in hypothetical hell that I would pass up hearing Beethoven's 10th and 11th symphonies to hold onto one I've heard multiple times.


----------



## csacks

I would not. Not being a musician, and listening rather than analyzing (I do not have how to), I must recognize that some the latest pieces are not easy to me. The last string quartets and the last piano sonatas, I have done a big effort with them, but they are still away from me. So, for this particular offer, I would say no, and I would still enjoying the wonderful 9th.
By the way, we already have Beethoven´s 10 since Johannes Brahms wrote his first symphony. Another reason to say no.


----------



## Couchie

Who hasn't memorized Beethoven's 9th? I'd take the new ones.


----------



## Fugue Meister

If cheating is an option I take cheating. 

If not I would say yes I could let go of the 9th... I think I have it committed to memory fairly well by now.


----------



## Manxfeeder

I wouldn't give up the 9th. Giving up Furtwangler, Karajan, Szell, and all those other recordings? I don't think so.


----------



## Antiquarian

No, I don't think I would. Not that I terribly enjoy the 9th, but imagine the terrible bad bargain if the 10th sounded exactly like Brahms' 1st.


----------



## KenOC

Antiquarian said:


> No, I don't think I would. Not that I terribly enjoy the 9th, but imagine the terrible bad bargain if the 10th sounded exactly like Brahms' 1st.


I'll hold out for a couple of new piano sonatas. Ho-hum to the symphonies.

My nightmare is that, still living in 1828, Beethoven would say: "Today I have discovered something which will assure the supremacy of German music for the next 100 years."


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Antiquarian said:


> No, I don't think I would. Not that I terribly enjoy the 9th, but imagine the terrible bad bargain if the 10th sounded exactly like Brahms' 1st.


Brahms 1 doesnt even sound like Beethoven


----------



## hpowders

In his day, Brahm's first was nicknamed "Beethoven's 10th".


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

hpowders said:


> In his day, Brahm's first was nicknamed "Beethoven's 10th".


Ouch, did Brahms even like that? Sounds like a snide insult from the Wagner camp to accuse him of being derivative!


----------



## hpowders

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Ouch, did Brahms even like that? Sounds like a snide insult from the Wagner camp to accuse him of being derivative!


Well, Brahms had his doubts about composing his first symphony due to Beethoven's gigantic shadow. People in the know were expecting a lot from him. He did pay tribute to Beethoven in the fourth movement of his first symphony with a tune alluding to the "Ode To Joy" theme from Beethoven's Ninth Symphony. (as did Schubert in his 9th symphony).

It seems Beethoven had Brahms "psyched". So who knows how he reacted to having his first symphony called "Beethoven's 10th"? Perhaps modest on the outside, but a bit self-satisfied on the inside? Interestingly, when some poor soul pointed out the theme in the fourth movement that was similar to Beethoven's "Ode To Joy" theme, Brahms was supposed to have said "Any fool can see that!"


----------



## hpowders

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Ouch, did Brahms even like that? Sounds like a snide insult from the Wagner camp to accuse him of being derivative!


Yes. It could have been taken as either a compliment or a derision. Let's not forget that Beethoven was worshipped as a god in those days, hence, the compliment angle. But one doesn't need a psychology degree to see the inherent "put down" to Brahms who obviously wanted his music to stand on its own merits.


----------



## EdwardBast

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Ouch, did Brahms even like that? Sounds like a snide insult from the Wagner camp to accuse him of being derivative!


To me it sounds like anyone who notes the uncomfortable similarity of a certain finale theme to the Ode to Joy. ;-)


----------



## Mahlerian

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Ouch, did Brahms even like that? Sounds like a snide insult from the Wagner camp to accuse him of being derivative!


As I remember, it was Hans von Bulow, who was a champion of both camps.


----------



## SONNET CLV

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Brahms 1 doesnt even sound like Beethoven


I've long considered the Brahms First as Beethoven's 10th, and when I first heard Barry Cooper's completion of the Beethoven 10th sketches, I found it intriguing that Beethoven used three flats (E-Flat Major). Brahms chose three flats for his First (C minor), but I don't believe Brahms had any access to the Beethoven sketches. So ... there seems to be some kind of psychic thing going on there, for "haunted" Brahms. (Couldn't he have written the work in, say, F-sharp minor?)

As to the speculative part of the initial post ... since I know the Beethoven Ninth so well I sing it often to myself, and since I can say the same for Brahms's First ... the prospect of hearing that Eleventh Symphony is too much to pass over.

Meanwhile, scratchgolf ... can you work up any deals concerning Sibelius's Eighth?


----------



## csacks

It seems to be that someone accused Brahms because his first symphony sounded like Beethoven´s music. His answer was "even a donkey can notice that". I would not say it is an insult but just a tribute. Consider that Brahms´ first is opus 56. Anyway, Beethoven should be proud about such a tribute. Brahms is not precisely Britney Spears!


----------



## DiesIraeCX

I like the hypothetical, I would have to decline the opportunity, though. I have two reasons for that, the first is because I think the Ninth is one of the major masterpieces of all time. It's my all-time favorite symphony, I've heard it so many times yet I still get chills like I'm hearing it for the first time. 

My second reason is because of Beethoven's symphony pattern, after every "heavier", romantic symphony, it was followed by a lighter, more classical sounding symphony. I don't hide the fact that I like symphonies 3, 5, 7, and 9 much more than 1, 2, 4, 6, and 8 (I still like them, though! Don't shoot me). So, following this pattern, the 10th would fall in line with the more classical sounding symphonies. So, I definitely wouldn't trade the 9th for that.

The 11th would be a return to "romantic form", but what are the chances that it would be better than the Ninth? I don't think it's likely. Would I trade Michelangelo's "Last Judgement", "David", or "Sistine Chapel" for two more works of art? Nope.


----------



## hpowders

Uhhhh....Brahm's First Symphony sounds like Brahms. He paid tribute to Beethoven in the fourth movement with a theme resembling the Ode To Joy theme.

When someone told Brahms about the fourth movement theme and its similarity to Beethoven, Brahms replied, "Any fool can see that!"


----------



## Lovemylute

Yes, I would make the trade. I might miss the ninth, but there are plenty of other masterpieces to enrapture me for the rest of my days (possibly including one or both of these hypothetical new symphonies). If I were much younger (such as a teenager, when I first heard the Ninth), I may give the opposite answer, but I have had many wonderful opportunities to enjoy it, and I think that I could manage without it now.


----------



## Don Fatale

A symphonic equivalent to the late quartets? Yes. I've never loved the 9th.


----------

