# Advice and recommendations



## juliante (Jun 7, 2013)

Hi folks I am looking for help to get into opera. I have been listening to CM daily for 6 years now and explored a wide range of music, but no opera yet - it's been a bit of a block. I love Mahler's Das Lied and Schubert's Wintereisse, so I am thinking (rightly or wrongly) that there is no reason why i should not get into opera. 

But I wonder where i should start. I feel I have to a degree moved on from Mozart's sound..... but if the idea of avoiding Mozart's operas meets with incredulous howls of derision I am fully prepared to give him ago - which one? 

But if not Mozart...I am not sure I am ready for Wagner. Also, I am not generally a fan of very overt big tunes, i prefer more subtle music (making assumptions about italian operas)

So having excluded about 60% of the repertoire...! Any suggestions?? Including 'drop your preconceptions'!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

I would suggest that before we all spring on you with advice, please do take a look at this :

http://www.talkclassical.com/38696-winners-thread-2015-talk.html

We did it just about a year ago, never mind the personal choices, just helping you true 100 operas.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

You might consider looking for "highlights" albums, which are easy to find for most of the major opera composers. It's a relatively quick way to figure out if you like the music without foregoing the plot altogether--and in any case it's my favorite way to hear a lot of operas, if I'm honest.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Drop your preconceptions!. 

No, seriously, you just need an open mind and explore. If you like these pieces by Mahler and Schubert, I agree with you, it's likely that you will like quite a few operas.

It's not necessary to start with Mozart, with Wagner or with 19th century Italian opera. They can be left for later, they will always be there.

Maybe early 20th century German opera can be a good place for you to begin your operatic journey. Try, for instance, "Salome" (Strauss), "Die Gezeichneten" (Schreker) or "Die Tote Stadt" (Korngold).


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Wagner ....................


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Itullian said:


> Wagner ....................


 Lohengrin

15 characters? why this stupid rule?


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Two operas that come to mind from your criteria are _Pelléas et Mélisande_ by Claude Debussy and _Der Rosenkavalier_ by Richard Strauss. Both are early 20th-century works that have quite subtle (but effective) music.

I would also note that opera is theater. It was conceived and originally presented as such, and the vast majority of operas in history have been created to be staged. So I would highly recommend watching opera as well as listening, either live or on video.

And composers such as Gluck and Wagner have helped reform and refine how this is done, working to have the different elements of opera working toward unified goals. Don't force yourself to listen to Mozart, but seeing how he used his musical gifts for dramatic purposes may add a welcome dimension to his work and open up a new avenue of appreciation.

I am someone that was heavily into classical music before I really appreciated opera. I did not really appreciate opera for a while, but I was encouraged to keep trying due to how much I liked various overtures, suites, and other instrumental excerpts/translations. A big part of my journey was also learning that opera was still a vibrant art form with new performances, productions, new works, and rediscoveries of old forgotten pieces. But it was really seeing a few works live (a Live in HD cinema broadcast and then a lottery ticket to the Met Opera) that got me completely hooked.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Here are some really enjoyable and famous operas you could start with : by Giuseppe Verdi,
La Traviata, Rigoletto , Il Trovatore , Aida , Un Ballo in Maschera .( A masked ball ).
By Giacomo Puccini , La Boheme, Tosca, Madama Butterfly , Turandot . 
George Bizet : Carmen . Jules Massenet , Manon, Werther, Thais.
Pietro Mascagni, CaValleria Rusticana (Rustic chivalry ), Ruggero Leoncavallo . Pagliacci .
Mozart , Don Giovanni , Le Nozze di Figaro (The marriage of Figaro ) , Die Zauberflote (The magic flute)
Beethoven : Fidelio . 
Gioacchino Rossini , Il Barbiere di Siviglia (The barber of Seville ). La Cenerentola (Cinderella ) .
Gaetano Donizetti , Lucia di Lammermoor , Don Pasquale , L'Elisir D'Amore (The elixir of love ).

You can choose from either complete recordings on CD or DVD performances from live productions .
Most complete opera sets on CD come with a booklet with a synopsis and an English translation next to the libretto in the original language Not all do , particularly the smaller budget labels. 
Most DVDs come with a synopsis and English titles , even your choice of other languages on the
menu . You won't regret getting to know operas this way ! Enjoy !


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

My only advice is to keep trying from time to time. There is so much variability in the sound of the human voice, added to the inherent variability of different conductors and orchestras. I did like some Mozart operas in my initial explorations: Cosi fan Tutte and La Clemenza di Tito. Bizet's The Pearlfishers is another good choice, and I recently liked Beethoven's Fidelio. I don't think there's a magic formula, but if you can start to identify what you like and dislike in what you are hearing/watching, others hear can help you find more of what you like.

If all else fails, ballets are like instrumental operas, and there's a lot there to explore, too.


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## cheftimmyr (Oct 28, 2015)

Recommendations from an opera newbie; I'm only about 16 months in but I'm firmly addicted... I knew little about the subject so grabbed a couple of books and scoured forums. My first opera I listened to was Rigoletto (Verdi), then from there went through some more Verdi, some Mozart, Donizetti, and Puccini. Then I gave Wagner a try, and that's been what has absorbed me for the last 12+ months. I think Wagner can be as deep as you'd like to go and the more I listen, the further down the rabbit hole I go. Ignore all the distractive rhetoric and just listen to the music and learn the characters and stories... It's been life changing. 

In addition, the feedback and opinions on the TC threads (especially Wagner-related) have been a gold mine; speaking of gold- I've also spent a fortune on historic Wagner recordings and if you're inclined to give Wagner a shot, thats a thread not to be missed.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

superhorn said:


> Here are some really enjoyable and famous operas you could start with : by Giuseppe Verdi,
> La Traviata, Rigoletto , Il Trovatore , Aida , Un Ballo in Maschera .( A masked ball ).
> By Giacomo Puccini , La Boheme, Tosca, Madama Butterfly , Turandot .
> George Bizet : Carmen . Jules Massenet , Manon, Werther, Thais.
> ...


That will keep O.P buzzy for a while.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

juliante said:


> I feel I have to a degree moved on from Mozart's sound..... but if the idea of avoiding Mozart's operas meets with incredulous howls of derision I am fully prepared to give him ago - which one?


One could spend a lifetime watching and listening to opera and not listen to one Mozart opera. There are many opera composers and many operas to choose from. I suggest you check some operas out on You Tube. You may only get parts, but it will give you a general feel for the music and style. If you like one, pursue it further.

The way I approached it was to get an opera synopsis book from the library (or a website with similar info), then skimming through them, I picked the ones where I liked the story.


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

I have to say, after a lifetime of avoiding Berg's Wozzeck I recently watched a video of it and enjoyed it quite a lot. Well, enjoy is maybe not the right word for a murder-suicide opera. Appreciated.

So much for my preconceptions.

:tiphat:

Kind regards,

George


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Odd corners of the operatc repertoire that are neither Mozartr, Italian, Wagner nor overtly tuneful:

Janacek: Vec Makropulous
R. Strauss: Araidne auf Naxos, Der Rosenkavalier
Britten: Peter Grimes
Bartok: Bluebeard's Castle
Debussy: Pelleas et Melisande
Mussorgsky: Boris Godunov
And if you can stand something short and treaclely loaded with big delicious tunes and sumptuously orchestrated as if by Wagner, try Hansel und Gretel.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

French grand opera. Chronologically halfway between Mozart and Wagner; dramatically and musically more sophisticated than Italian opera, but less "heavy" than Wagner. Wagner and Mahler both admired Halévy's _Juive_, while Meyerbeer's _Huguenots_ was the most popular opera of the 19th century. Berlioz was a genius; listen to _Benvenuto Cellini_ and _Les Troyens_.

That said, don't be afraid of Wagner. Try _Lohengrin_ or _Der fliegende Holländer_, both of which have strong stories and accessible music. And you can listen to highlights from the later operas.

Mussorgsky's _Boris Godunov_, the masterpiece of Russian opera - a historical chronicle, combining Shakespearean characterization with powerful crowd scenes.

I'd also recommend Massenet (_Werther_, the inevitable suggestion, is over-rated; he wrote a dozen or so better ones) and Richard Strauss.

As a Mahler fan, you might enjoy Weber's unfinished _Drei Pintos_, which Mahler completed.


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## juliante (Jun 7, 2013)

Well folks thanks for your helpful recommendations. Just as an update,  I have got my foot in the door - via Britten's Turn of The Screw, as it happens - just stumbled upon it and am loving a lot of it. So I will use recs given to continue the journey. Very excited! 

Those up and downy talky/singy bits that merely move the libretto along but don't feel particularly melodic or part of anything - is that a feature of most operas? To ask a naïve question....


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

juliante said:


> Well folks thanks for your helpful recommendations. Just as an update, I have got my foot in the door - via Britten's Turn of The Screw, as it happens - just stumbled upon it and am loving a lot of it. So I will use recs given to continue the journey. Very excited!
> 
> Those up and downy talky/singy bits that merely move the libretto along but don't feel particularly melodic or part of anything - is that a feature of most operas? To ask a naïve question....


Do you mean opera in general or just Britten?


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

juliante said:


> Those up and downy talky/singy bits that merely move the libretto along but don't feel particularly melodic or part of anything - is that a feature of most operas? To ask a naïve question....


There is an extreme amount of variety in opera. You may want to try Barber of Seville for a really fun time with a lot of great melody. Or La Cenerentola. Both Rossini. Or try Donizetti's La Fille du Régiment.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Easy peasy does it:
La Boheme is universally loved by almost everyone.
Carmen is exciting with lots of familiar music
Tosca is an intriguing murder mystery kind of thing which is appealing to many
Madama Butterfly is beautiful, sad and poignant
Gianni Schicchi is full of fun and laughter

Start with those and if you liked them, come back for more.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

juliante said:


> Well folks thanks for your helpful recommendations. Just as an update, I have got my foot in the door - via Britten's Turn of The Screw, as it happens - just stumbled upon it and am loving a lot of it. So I will use recs given to continue the journey. Very excited!
> 
> Those up and downy talky/singy bits that merely move the libretto along but don't feel particularly melodic or part of anything - is that a feature of most operas? To ask a naïve question....


Hooray! I'm glad you found something you enjoy!

And, ahh, recitative. It comes in various forms and is not uncommon, though there are some through-composed operas. Other operas use spoken dialogue, sometimes unaccompanied. And it can be complicated; _Carmen_ was written with spoken dialogue, but after Bizet died accompaniment was written for that dialogue and it was redone as recitative. This is how the opera is generally performed now.

There was a brief thread with some discussion on numbers versus through-composed a couple years ago here.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

juliante said:


> Well folks thanks for your helpful recommendations. Just as an update, I have got my foot in the door - via Britten's Turn of The Screw, as it happens - just stumbled upon it and am loving a lot of it. So I will use recs given to continue the journey. Very excited!
> 
> Those up and downy talky/singy bits that merely move the libretto along but don't feel particularly melodic or part of anything - is that a feature of most operas? To ask a naïve question....


Britten can be very "talky." Not all opera is like that, but there is dialogue in most operas that just needs to be got out quickly. In 18th-century opera the "talky" parts that just move the plot along are clearly distinguished as "recitative." Later composers handle the problem in different ways, musically.


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## juliante (Jun 7, 2013)

i've only heard this one so far - but that is my pre-conception of opera ...


Pugg said:


> Do you mean opera in general or just Britten?


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## juliante (Jun 7, 2013)

mountmccabe said:


> Hooray! I'm glad you found something you enjoy!
> 
> And, ahh, recitative. It comes in various forms and is not uncommon, though there are some through-composed operas. Other operas use spoken dialogue, sometimes unaccompanied. And it can be complicated; _Carmen_ was written with spoken dialogue, but after Bizet died accompaniment was written for that dialogue and it was redone as recitative. This is how the opera is generally performed now.
> 
> There was a brief thread with some discussion on numbers versus through-composed a couple years ago here.


Thanks for both links - really helpful. i don't think i will be a recitative-phobe, well at least not re turn of the screw...the human voice is quite a gorgeous instrument, however it is used...well at least with great singers it is!


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## juliante (Jun 7, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> Easy peasy does it:
> La Boheme is universally loved by almost everyone.
> Carmen is exciting with lots of familiar music
> Tosca is an intriguing murder mystery kind of thing which is appealing to many
> ...


Thanks for these. I realised with turn of the screw that having and understanding of the story and events in each scene adds a huge amount. I am an english speaker...is it basically essential in your view to follow along with a translation for at least the first few listens...? Or do you sometimes enjoy operas as abstract music?


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

superhorn said:


> Pietro Mascagni, CaValleria Rusticana (Rustic chivalry ),


Also Iris by Mascagni is highly recommended.
Don Carlo by Verdi.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Blancrocher said:


> *You might consider looking for "highlights" albums*, which are easy to find for most of the major opera composers. It's a relatively quick way to figure out if you like the music without foregoing the plot altogether--and in any case it's my favorite way to hear a lot of operas, if I'm honest.


Amen, Blanc. My butt gets tired (to say nothing of mind) over three-hour stretches, or more! Of course, purists scoff at "hits" procurement.

superhorn provided a nice post with lots of biggies listed. I would only add a little Baroque, such as Handel, Rameau, etc., and contemporary, when Trump Opera is indeed concluded. 

I'm currently compiling an opera shopping list for UHD TV viewing. I know this will go against my CD "highlights" philosophy, but scenery and costumes will be enhanced. Cheers. :tiphat:


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

juliante said:


> Thanks for these. I realised with turn of the screw that having and understanding of the story and events in each scene adds a huge amount. I am an english speaker...is it basically essential in your view to follow along with a translation for at least the first few listens...? Or do you sometimes enjoy operas as abstract music?


Actually, reading a synopsis might just be enough to suffice. But even a better way would be to either stream it on your computer or view a DVD. Then you can just sit back and view as well as listen.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

juliante said:


> Well folks thanks for your helpful recommendations. Just as an update, I have got my foot in the door - via Britten's Turn of The Screw, as it happens - just stumbled upon it and am loving a lot of it. So I will use recs given to continue the journey. Very excited!
> 
> Those up and downy talky/singy bits that merely move the libretto along but don't feel particularly melodic or part of anything - is that a feature of most operas? To ask a naïve question....


Britten's a 20th century composer, so his music can be sparer or less tuneful than 19th century composers'.

I saw _Midsummer Night's Dream_ and _Billy Budd_ in Sydney a decade ago. Both are among the best productions I've seen in an opera house.

Here's the 1966 BBC production of _Billy Budd_:





I wouldn't recommend _Peter Grimes_; I saw the Covent Garden screening at the cinema with friends, and we all walked out at the end of the first act.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

nina foresti said:


> Easy peasy does it:
> La Boheme is universally loved by almost everyone.
> Carmen is exciting with lots of familiar music
> Tosca is an intriguing murder mystery kind of thing which is appealing to many
> ...


That's _very_ heavy on the Puccini!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

juliante said:


> i've only heard this one so far - but that is my pre-conception of opera ...


May I add my two cents : La Traviata and Don Carlos.
( Both Verdi)


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Pugg said:


> May I add my two cents : La Traviata and Don Carlos.
> ( Both Verdi)


Rigoletto and Simon Boccanegra too.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

SimonTemplar said:


> That's _very_ heavy on the Puccini!


He made several enjoyable operas.
But I would recommend Turandot instead of Gianni Schicchi
Also instead of Carmen I suggest Pelleas et Mellisande.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

juliante said:


> Hi folks I am looking for help to get into opera. I have been listening to CM daily for 6 years now and explored a wide range of music, but no opera yet - it's been a bit of a block. I love Mahler's Das Lied and Schubert's Wintereisse, so I am thinking (rightly or wrongly) that there is no reason why i should not get into opera.
> 
> But I wonder where i should start. I feel I have to a degree moved on from Mozart's sound..... but if the idea of avoiding Mozart's operas meets with incredulous howls of derision I am fully prepared to give him ago - which one?
> 
> ...


Das Lied and Winterreise were two of my absolute favorite pieces before I got into opera too. I ended up becoming a Wagner fanatic, so based on my experience, that might be something you might be interested in trying out. Listen to Act 1 of Die Walkure and Act 3 of Gotterdammerung and Act 3 of Parsifal a couple of times and see if any of it grabs you at all.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

juliante said:


> Hi folks I am looking for help to get into opera. I have been listening to CM daily for 6 years now and explored a wide range of music, but no opera yet - it's been a bit of a block. I love Mahler's Das Lied and Schubert's Wintereisse, so I am thinking (rightly or wrongly) that there is no reason why i should not get into opera.
> 
> But I wonder where i should start. I feel I have to a degree moved on from Mozart's sound..... but if the idea of avoiding Mozart's operas meets with incredulous howls of derision I am fully prepared to give him ago - which one?
> 
> ...


Although you said you have moved on from Mozart, my #1 recommendation would be Rene Jacobs recording of _Le nozze di Figaro_. In my opinion, it is sensational. I may be biased though, _Figaro_ was the first opera I ever loved (21 years ago) and it remains my overwhelming favorite to this day. It is just magnificent in every way. Perfect. Absolutely perfect. Packed with some of the most exciting and most beautiful music I have ever heard. I must have listened to it over 1,000, and I swear I still hear new things. There's not one single moment in it, not one single number, that I absolutely do not love. Brahms once described each musical sequence as a "miracle" and I agree. It's just THE BEST!

I am also mad, right now, for the Russians. Gergiev's _Boris Godunov_ recording is fantastic. Definitely the greatest Russian opera.

There is just too much to discover.


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