# Why cry when hearing ugly and cold voices?



## wolf (May 16, 2009)

In my book, the really great singers are Flagstad(unbeatable), Caruso, Tebaldi, Kraus, Domingo, Stignani, Melchior, Nilsson, Verrett, Arroyo, Gedda, Ponselle, Schwartzkopf, Windgassen, Tibbett, Gobbi and so on.

Some of the legendary singers I find simply awful, like Del Monaco, Corelli, Te Kanawa, post1978 Carreras etc.

I certainly do _*not*_ think that the 'cold' Bjorling or the 'uglyvoiced' Callas are among the really great singers, although Callas was a great actress.

When Flagstad or Tibbett sings I get goosebumps all over me, and my heart beats faster.

*But every fri****g time* Callas or Bjorling sings, my eyes are filled with tears. Why is that, how come that they almost tear my heart out, when I don't want them to! Even Adams 'Cantique Noel' who has been sung to death, would you believe that Bjorlings version made me cry?! And I can't stand that piece...

Any of you that are touched by singers that you do not admire? Or are they the ones we *truly* admire?


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

I can't answer your question wolf. 

Only my favourite singers affect me this way. An aria I adore, sung by a singer I'm not keen on does nothing for me.


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## wolf (May 16, 2009)

sospiro said:


> I can't answer your question wolf.
> 
> Only my favourite singers affect me this way. An aria I adore, sung by a singer I'm not keen on does nothing for me.


I don't know that it's better to get tears in your eyes - no it's not, it's better to feel exhilarated as when the "favorite singers" sing. Verrett and Stignani are much better than Obrastzova, but strangely she affects me a bit that way too. Perhaps it's because there is "suffering" in their voices. But there is no suffering in Bjorlings voice, is there, and he is almost the worst 'tearjerker'. Well I guess that it cannot be properly explained...


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

This was discussed briefly in the 'Current Watching' thread as well, and just a day or two ago I read a term (that I can't find now, unfortunately) in the excellent book Life in Opera that seemed to describe it. I believe it translated as "the tear in the voice" and is a separate thing from the objective quality of the voice. Callas definitely has it -- something that makes her voice utterly compelling, despite not being as objectively good as any number of other sopranos. I've often wondered if she had managed to remove that "metallic" undertone in her voice, if it would be improved or if that's at least part of the reason that her voice is, in fact, so compelling.

Natalie Dessay has the same effect on me (though I don't find her voice ugly, just perhaps not as technically proficient as, say, Sills or Sutherland). Consider this video: 



Audio quality is poor, audience doesn't know when to applaud, Dessay doesn't really get a chance to act in this aria (which is normally her strong suit) ... and somehow it doesn't matter. This performance just wrecks me.


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## wolf (May 16, 2009)

rgz said:


> ...just a day or two ago I read a term (that I can't find now, unfortunately) in the excellent book Life in Opera that seemed to describe it. I believe it translated as "the tear in the voice" and is a separate thing from the objective quality of the voice. Callas definitely has it -- something that makes her voice utterly compelling, despite not being as objectively good as any number of other sopranos....


Waddaynow! It has actually some sort of label then. Very interesting, yes that Mozart smiles through tears is no secret, but that a qualityin voices that one doesn't even like (or does one?) was that less diffuse, but had been analyzed, was a surprise to me. Callas, Bjoerling and Obrastzova. Possibly Pirazzini too. And Albanese more than de los Angeles. Which is corny as I think that de los Angeles is a much better singer.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

wolf said:


> Waddaynow! It has actually some sort of label then. Very interesting, yes that Mozart smiles through tears is no secret, but that a qualityin voices that one doesn't even like (or does one?) was that less diffuse, but had been analyzed, was a surprise to me. Callas, Bjoerling and Obrastzova. Possibly Pirazzini too. And Albanese more than de los Angeles. Which is corny as I think that de los Angeles is a much better singer.


I think it could also be a subjective thing and the singers that affect you this way may or may not do the same to me. For example, Diana Damrau has that affect on me. I find her vibrato too fast and harsh, her tone a touch sharp as often as not, but I can't stop watching her videos on youtube. Something about her voice just utterly owns my soul.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

rgz said:


> I think it could also be a subjective thing and the singers that affect you this way may or may not do the same to me. For example, Diana Damrau has that affect on me. I find her vibrato too fast and harsh, her tone a touch sharp as often as not, but I can't stop watching her videos on youtube. Something about her voice just utterly owns my soul.


Most of the voices that really affect me viscerally are male voices - Ruggero Raimondi, Plácido Domingo, Jonas Kaufmann all make me melt, whereas although I really enjoy listening to female singers (specially mezzos and contraltos) they don't affect me in the same way. Is there an element of male/femaleness for other people too, possibly linked to sexual attraction, or is it just me? I can see that Wolf is talking about male and female voices, what about other people?


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Most of the voices that really affect me viscerally are male voices - Ruggero Raimondi, Plácido Domingo, Jonas Kaufmann all make me melt, whereas although I really enjoy listening to female singers (specially mezzos and contraltos) they don't affect me in the same way. Is there an element of male/femaleness for other people too, possibly linked to sexual attraction, or is it just me? I can see that Wolf is talking about male and female voices, what about other people?


That's an interesting point. I mentioned in the other thread that Pavarotti has that effect on me as well (and last time I checked, I am in fact male), but the majority of those types of singers are female for me -- Dessay, Damrau, Callas (at times, before her voice became too poor ... say pre-58ish). But even male singers whose voices I love -- Thomas Hampson, Bryn Terfel, Kurt Moll (among others) don't have the same effect. Pavarotti seems to be an exception, particularly so as tenor is one of my least favorite voices.

And I've found it's not an all-or-nothing thing. There are times that Joan Sutherland's voice has that effect on me, and times it doesn't (though, just to clarify given the OP in this thread, her voice obviously is not ugly / cold). That said, there's little in the way of sexual attraction vis-a-vis Ms. Sutherland. Sorry to be so blunt, but there it is.

I remember reading some years ago that men's ears have higher sensitivity to typical female vocal ranges, and vice versa -- women's ears are tuned to men's voices. So that may have something to do with it as well.

To go off on a brief tangent, I'd be curious to see a poll of several hundred or thousand opera fans as to their sex and their favorite vocal type (i.e., soprano / mezzo / alto / tenor / etc). I wonder if men would statistically prefer women's voices and vice-versa. Just speaking for myself, soprano is far and away my favorite, in my mind it is *the* essential voice for opera. Baritone is a distant second.


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## wolf (May 16, 2009)

mamascarlatti said:


> ...Is there an element of male/femaleness for other people too, possibly linked to sexual attraction, or is it just me? I can see that Wolf is talking about male and female voices, what about other people?


I am - just as rgz is doing, in his case Pavarotti - only mentioning *one* male voice, Bjorling. The other ones mentioned, Callas, Obrastzova, Albanese, and Pirazzini are female. And Bjorling confuses me most, as he is considered a cold singer. But these are the "tearjerkers".

The list I made of the singers that I *admired more *than the 'tearjerkers', (Flagstad, Caruso, Verrett and the others), are singers that affect me artistically, and musically, sure they give me *goosebumps*. But they never make my eyes water or tear at my heart. It's difficult to explain the subtle difference. rgz seemed to agree with me in that some voices affect you in that strange way, whether you want them to or not. That he actually had read about it, as something being analyzed, and even remebering it having a name, was interesting to me.



rgz said:


> ...And I've found it's not an all-or-nothing thing. There are times that Joan Sutherland's voice has that effect on me, and times it doesn't...


Well, naturally. 'Every frigging time', as I wrote, was a manner of spech. With pre1964 Callas, it's almost always though, with the others it's more seldom. That goes for Bjorling too, only when he hits, he is the worst of all. As you say, it's very personal, Sutherland is a fantastic singer that has given me a dizzy head many times, but my eyes have remained dry.



rgz said:


> ...I wonder if men would statistically prefer women's voices and vice-versa. Just speaking for myself, soprano is far and away my favorite, in my mind it is *the* essential voice for opera. Baritone is a distant second.


That is confusing, be it sexually motivated, or only the 'attuned male/female voice thing'. If the theory were waterproof, you should like'em 1. Soprano 2. Mezzo 3. Alt 4. Countertenor 5. Tenor 6. Baritone 7. Bass. Nah, only joking, nothing is ever black and white!

I rather have a rawvoiced woman cooing in my ear, than a honeyvoiced male, but there are individuals with very attractive 'speech voices' that can make you relax, and in my view they can either be male or female. I do not find that this has anything to do with sexuality. And as for opera, I believe that the singing - tearjerkers or the others - has even less to do with anything sexual. For me, that is. Others may feel differently.


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