# A TC Hall of Fame! (Fusion of Games and Discussion)



## Tchaikov6

All right, so at another forum I've been on they did this and it was really fun! We should try to do it here, let's see if anyone is interested.

*Rules:*

Classical Music Piece Nominations: Nominate any piece of music you like. There is no length limit, but to be decent you might not want to nominate something like Feldman's String Quartet No. 2 or the Ring Cycle.

PM me your nomination - one per person - and include: Piece title, composer & year (if applicable). Keep your nomination a secret until the unveiling of the pieces. If you like, you can also add a recording you would like everyone to use (preferably on YouTube).

Open Door Policy: For one week after the reveal of the piece nominations, I will be taking new members.

Length of HoF: There will be approximately three days of listening time per nomination, so if there are 10 
nominations the HoF will be about 30 days long. The deadline to finish will be posted after the HoF starts.

During the HoF: Everyone listens to the nominated pieces and will discuss them in this thread. You need to write at least a few sentences about your thoughts on each piece, after you listen to it. Part of the process is discussion of the pieces as a group.

Afterwards: Once you have listened to and written about each piece, send me a list ranking every piece nominated in the Hall of Fame. After I have received every ballot I will post the results and the winner ("inductee").

Note: If you've listened to a piece recently or have heard it many times you can skip listening to it, otherwise you have to listen to all nominated pieces.

Requesting help to locate pieces: If you have trouble locating a nomination make a post and ask for help. In general, if you nominate something make sure it is available on YouTube.

Dropouts: Members who don't finish will be disqualified and their nomination removed from the HoF. Please make sure you have the time to complete this, it helps to start listening to the pieces right away so you don't have a bunch of pieces to listen to at the end. If for any reason you do need to drop out, absolutely let me know you can't finish.

Any questions? If not, you can send me your nominations over PM please, I will do a reveal of them in about a week (that is, if we get enough participation, guess we'll see).


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## Bulldog

Questions:

1. How many nominations may one person make?

2. What happens after all nominations have been listened to and discussed?


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## Tchaikov6

Bulldog said:


> Questions:
> 
> 1. How many nominations may one person make?
> 
> 2. What happens after all nominations have been listened to and discussed?


1. Only one per Hall of Fame (I may do more in the future).

2. Completely forgot this part! After they have been listened to and discussed you will send me a PM ranking every piece. After I have received every ballot I'll post the results and the winner ("inductee").

I'll add these to the first post.


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## Tchaikov6

Would this be better moved to the games section I wonder?


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## Bulldog

Tchaikov6 said:


> Would this be better moved to the games section I wonder?


Is this a game?


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## Tchaikov6

Bulldog said:


> Is this a game?


:lol::lol:

Fair enough, I guess it's not a game so it'll stay here. Just worried that we won't get any participation then.


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## Bulldog

Tchaikov6 said:


> :lol::lol:
> 
> Fair enough, I guess it's not a game so it'll stay here. Just worried that we won't get any participation then.


You could make it a game - issue solved.


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## Tchaikov6

Bulldog said:


> You could make it a game - issue solved.


I guess I'm not sure what you're saying. Change the rules? Or just move it over to the Games section.


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## Bulldog

Tchaikov6 said:


> I guess I'm not sure what you're saying. Change the rules? Or just move it over to the Games section.


No, I was bringing up the possibility of rule changes, although no change to the initial process of submitting nominations.

By the way, I would think that the Classical Music portal gets the most exposure. There are members here who wouldn't touch anything in the Polls/Games subform.

Anyways, I'll be sending you my nomination in a few minutes.


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## Tchaikov6

Bulldog said:


> No, I was bringing up the possibility of rule changes, although no change to the initial process of submitting nominations.
> 
> By the way, I would think that the Classical Music portal gets the most exposure. There are members here who wouldn't touch anything in the Polls/Games subform.
> 
> Anyways, I'll be sending you my nomination in a few minutes.


Thanks, I'm glad you are participating! I'll wait for a day or two before maybe considering a rule change.


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## Tchaikov6

Right now we’ve got two nominations, one from Bach and one from Schnittke.


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## SixFootScowl

Everyone who participates has to listen to every work nominated?

Ha ha! I nominate Wagner's Der Ring Des Nibelungen!


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## Tchaikov6

Fritz Kobus said:


> Everyone who participates has to listen to every work nominated?
> 
> Ha ha! I nominate Wagner's Der Ring Des Nibelungen!


Well, you can... I already mentioned that in the first post, it might be annoying to some people. (I know you are joking btw just clarifying).

If you would like to actually nominate something please PM me (it would be much appreciated).


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## Tchaikov6

I’m hoping for a turnout of at least ten, I think we can get ten people! Remember, you just nominate a piece and all you “have” to do is listen to every piece. It’s not very difficult, I would think this would be right up TCers alleys!


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## SixFootScowl

Tchaikov6 said:


> Well, you can... I already mentioned that in the first post, it might be annoying to some people. (I know you are joking btw just clarifying).
> 
> If you would like to actually nominate something please PM me (it would be much appreciated).


Yes I am joking. I do have a very reasonably lengthed nomination I will send to you.

If there are a total of 10 pieces, it will be easy to finish. If there are 100 pieces, it may choke a lot of people out. But even 20 is reasonable, perhaps more.


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## Tchaikov6

We’ve got four now, with a nomination from 1700s, 1800s, and two from the 1900s.


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## Tchaikov6

Fritz Kobus said:


> Yes I am joking. I do have a very reasonably lengthed nomination I will send to you.
> 
> If there are a total of 10 pieces, it will be easy to finish. If there are 100 pieces, it may choke a lot of people out. But even 20 is reasonable, perhaps more.


Yes at a certain amount of people I will close nominations... but I'm not worried about that happening, at least for this HoF


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## Tchaikov6

We’re still at four, six more would be a number I’m happy with.


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## Haydn man

This sounds like fun so I will make a nomination


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## Tchaikov6

Up to 7 now. I'd actually be fine with seven members, but I'll wait another day or two to see if we have anyone else.


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## Art Rock

Make that eight. Choice submitted.


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## Tchaikov6

We've got quite a wide range of nominations, all the way from 1590s to 1970s.


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## SixFootScowl

Tchaikov6 said:


> We've got quite a wide range of nominations, all the way from 1590s to 1970s.


Well that will make for a very interesting listening/review process!


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## science

Only going back to the 1590s means that we're ignoring half of the history of Western music.


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## Nereffid

science said:


> Only going back to the 1590s means that we're ignoring half of the history of Western music.


Ah, thank you for helping me make my mind up about what to suggest!


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## Bulldog

science said:


> Only going back to the 1590s means that we're ignoring half of the history of Western music.


I don't agree. That I submitted a work from the 1700's does not mean that I ignored earlier or later centuries. I considered all of them and made my one selection.


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## Tchaikov6

Nereffid said:


> Ah, thank you for helping me make my mind up about what to suggest!


Yup, Nereffid has addressed science's complaint and extended our time span back to the 1200s!


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## science

Bulldog said:


> I don't agree. That I submitted a work from the 1700's does not mean that I ignored earlier or later centuries. I considered all of them and made my one selection.


That's a good point. We have all collectively selected works from only one half of the history of classical music!



Tchaikov6 said:


> Yup, Nereffid has addressed science's complaint and extended our time span back to the 1200s!


That Nereffid's a tricky one.


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## Tchaikov6

And believe it or not the year range has been extended even _further_ with our 10th nomination.

Now that we're at ten I'll be posting the nominations sometime in the next 12 hours.

And by the way: *10 was my goal, but NOT my maximum, so anyone is still free to join.*


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## Tchaikov6

All right, here are the ten nominations:

*Abelard: Planctus David super Saul et Jonatha*
Nominated by: Portamento
Suggested Recording: 





*Pérotin: Viderunt omnes*
Nominated by: Nereffid
Suggested Recording: Hilliard Ensemble on ECM (Not Available on YouTube)
Alternate:





*Byrd: Infelix Ego*
Nominated by: science
Suggested Recording: Carwood/The Cardinalk's Musik (Not Available on YouTube)
Alternate:





*Bach: The Well-Tempered Clavier, Books 1 and 2*
Nominated by: Bulldog

*Mozart: Piano Concerto No. 23*
Nominated by: Haydn Man
Suggested Recording:





*Beethoven: Fidelio*
Nominated by: Schoenberg

*Beethoven: Choral Fantasy*
Nominated by: Fritz Kobus
Suggested Recording:





*Elgar: Symphony No. 1*
Nominated by: BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

*Avshalomov: Hutongs of Peking*
Nominated by: Art Rock
Suggested Recording:





*Schnittke: Clowns und Kinder*
Nominated by: Tchaikov6
Suggested Recording:





If you forgot to add a requested recording and would like to, feel free to just add the link and I may be able to edit it in here if I haven't lost the editing option by then.


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## Tchaikov6

Reminder of the rules:

During the HoF: Everyone listens to the nominated pieces and will discuss them in this thread. You need to write at least a few sentences about your thoughts on each piece, after you listen to it.

Afterwards: Once you have listened to and written about each piece, send me a list ranking every piece nominated in the Hall of Fame. After I have received every ballot I will post the results and the winner ("inductee").

The current "goal" for a deadline is:
*Friday, December 13, 2019*

I would hope everyone can finish by then. If not, here is the absolute deadline when all lists must be in:
*Wednesday, January 22, 2020*


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## Tchaikov6

I'll start us off with a review of my own nomination

*Schnittke: Clowns Und Kinder*
What a fun piece! I love 20th Century Russian music, and Schnittke is certainly one of the many reasons why. I was debating which piece to nominate by him, but I settled on this one because it's short, sweet, and easy to like. It's not deep and powerful like the Concerto Grossos or the Viola Concerto, but it has that oddball Schnittke feel that I always enjoy. Overall just a blast to listen to and a piece that I never grow sick of.


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## Art Rock

I think (at least in my case) "Suggested recording" is more appropriate than "requested recording", but that's a minor point. There are four pieces that are new to me, and I look forward to exploring them. I will be skipping several that I know pretty well.


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## Bulldog

I nominated Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier which I find the best music ever written. Each of the 96 pieces is a gem of craftsmanship and inspiration. I am most taken with the many fugues expressing despair that are taken over by exquisite rays of light. 

My preference is to listen to both books in one sitting, and I did just that last night with Belder's harpsichord set on Brilliant Classics. Although I am partial to Bach on harpschord, my favorite version comes from pianist Rosalyn Tureck.


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## Art Rock

I nominated Avshalomov: Hutongs of Peking. I was not quite sure whether we were supposed to nominate our favourite work (which is Mahler's Das Lied von der Erde) or something less known that we like and we think more people should try it (which I went for). Aaron Avshalomov (1894-1965) had an intriguing life. Born in Russia, he moved to the USA after the October revolution, but quickly afterward moved again, this time to Shanghai - to return to the USA in 1947. I picked him and this work because of the China connection. Shanghai is my second home town (my wife is from there), and I have walked through the old neighbourhood (hutongs) of Beijing. The work I selected is a late symphonic poem (1931), and one of my favourites in that genre aside from the usual suspects.

I will be using my own five tier classification system for the pieces in the game, in decreasing order of merit according to my taste:

1 = Hors concours (top100)
2 = Essential (must have on CD)
3 = Important (like to have on CD)
4 = Neutral (can do with or without)
5 = Not required (for me)

The piece I submitted is Essential for me.


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## Art Rock

*Abelard: Planctus David super Saul et Jonatha
*
A new composer for me, in general I do not often listen to pre-baroque. I listened to the YouTube link provided. The first few seconds (instrumental introduction) were OK, but as soon as the singing started, the work lost me. The high voice (I assume countertenor) entering as second singer did not make things better. I played it to the end, but at no moment was I tempted to play this again, or find other works of this composer.
My evaluation: Not required (for me).


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## Bulldog

I'm with Art Rock concerning the Abelard work. The melodies were attractive, but the music never penetrated and I doubt I will return to the piece.


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## Art Rock

*Bach: The Well-Tempered Clavier, Books 1 and 2
*
A work I know so well that I'm not going to listen to it for this game.

The versions I have on CD are Schiff (Decca, piano), Suzuki (BIS, harpsichord), Berbem (Brilliant, Harpsichord).

Bach is my #1 composer, but in general - not just for Bach - I find solo piano works (let alone harpsichord works) less satisfying than say organ, chamber music, orchestral works, or vocal compositions. That said, the WTC certainly ranks among the best in its genre, even though personally I prefer to listen one CD at a time instead of four in a row.

My evaluation: Essential.


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## SixFootScowl

Tchaikov6 said:


> *Beethoven: Fidelio*
> Nominated by: Schoenberg


This one, I take it, would be the full opera? Or is it only the overture?


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## Tchaikov6

Art Rock said:


> I nominated Avshalomov: Hutongs of Peking. I was not quite sure whether we were supposed to nominate our favourite work (which is Mahler's Das Lied von der Erde) or something less known that we like and we think more people should try it (which I went for). Aaron Avshalomov (1894-1965) had an intriguing life. Born in Russia, he moved to the USA after the October revolution, but quickly afterward moved again, this time to Shanghai - to return to the USA in 1947. I picked him and this work because of the China connection. Shanghai is my second home town (my wife is from there), and I have walked through the old neighbourhood (hutongs) of Beijing. The work I selected is a late symphonic poem (1931), and one of my favourites in that genre aside from the usual suspects.
> 
> I will be using my own five tier classification system for the pieces in the game, in decreasing order of merit according to my taste:
> 
> 1 = Hors concours (top100)
> 2 = Essential (must have on CD)
> 3 = Important (like to have on CD)
> 4 = Neutral (can do with or without)
> 5 = Not required (for me)
> 
> The piece I submitted is Essential for me.





Bulldog said:


> I nominated Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier which I find the best music ever written. Each of the 96 pieces is a gem of craftsmanship and inspiration. I am most taken with the many fugues expressing despair that are taken over by exquisite rays of light.
> 
> My preference is to listen to both books in one sitting, and I did just that last night with Belder's harpsichord set on Brilliant Classics. Although I am partial to Bach on harpschord, my favorite version comes from pianist Rosalyn Tureck.


Should I count these as your reviews?


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## Tchaikov6

Fritz Kobus said:


> This one, I take it, would be the full opera? Or is it only the overture?


I believe the full opera, I'll let Schoenberg confirm.


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## Art Rock

Tchaikov6 said:


> Should I count these as your reviews?


For me, yes. Don't expect paragraphs of text from me in any "review".


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## Haydn man

My nomination for Mozart PC No. 23 includes a link to my personal favourite with Perahia and the ECO. Clearly there are many more versions out there so I assume folks are free to choose their own personal favourites instead?


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## Tchaikov6

Haydn man said:


> My nomination for Mozart PC No. 23 includes a link to my personal favourite with Perahia and the ECO. Clearly there are many more versions out there so I assume folks are free to choose their own personal favourites instead?


Of course, you may choose any recording you want, but if you don't know a piece it would be helpful to use the recording recommended.


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## Tchaikov6

*Abelard: Planctus David super Saul et Jonatha *

Now this is a genre/era of music that I really have to get in to. So far I've been impressed with this stuff but haven't quite connected to it. I loved the folk influences for this piece, it really brings you back in time. So, yeah, I loved that. The vocal addition was nice but got kind of annoying by the end.

It's a nice nomination, and certainly a style/form that was incredibly influential, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it "enjoyable."


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## science

I'm sorry, guys, I can't do this. I know that the invitation was meant in a friendly way but I cannot participate in this kind of thing. Though I do not want to share my feelings about works of music here, I genuinely hope all of you have a good time with this.


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## Tchaikov6

Excellent write-up science, I enjoyed it!


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

I will write reviews this weekend, but I'll start by adding a reference recording for the Elgar symphony:






Or try Elgar conducting it himself (the other movements are on the same channel):






By the way, the ones I haven't heard before are:

Abelard: Planctus David super Saul et Jonatha
Pérotin: Viderunt omnes
Byrd: Infelix Ego
Beethoven: Fidelio (I'm only familiar with the overture)
Avshalomov: Hutongs of Peking


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## Tchaikov6

*Avshalomov: Hutongs of Peking*

I liked it for the most part. I didn't love it but it was a cool piece with very good orchestration and some decent melodies. But to me it wasn't much more than that. Maybe I'll listen to it again before sending in my voting list, but for now I remain fairly apathetic to it. Never heard of the composer as well, I may check out more of his stuff later.


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## Tchaikov6

Art Rock said:


> I nominated Avshalomov: Hutongs of Peking. I was not quite sure whether we were supposed to nominate our favourite work (which is Mahler's Das Lied von der Erde) or something less known that we like and we think more people should try it (which I went for). Aaron Avshalomov (1894-1965) had an intriguing life. Born in Russia, he moved to the USA after the October revolution, but quickly afterward moved again, this time to Shanghai - to return to the USA in 1947. I picked him and this work because of the China connection. Shanghai is my second home town (my wife is from there), and I have walked through the old neighbourhood (hutongs) of Beijing. The work I selected is a late symphonic poem (1931), and one of my favourites in that genre aside from the usual suspects.
> 
> I will be using my own five tier classification system for the pieces in the game, in decreasing order of merit according to my taste:
> 
> 1 = Hors concours (top100)
> 2 = Essential (must have on CD)
> 3 = Important (like to have on CD)
> 4 = Neutral (can do with or without)
> 5 = Not required (for me)
> 
> The piece I submitted is Essential for me.


So, just curious, would you say you would enjoy the piece just as much if it didn't have personal meaning to you?


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## Art Rock

Yes, it was just easier for me to check it out.


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## science

Withdrawn for the sake of my own privacy!


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## Art Rock

The good news: the local library had the Perotin CD with the Hilliard Ensemble.
The bad news: when I played it, track 2 (the selected one) turned out to be corrupted.
The good news: the local library will check whether they can get hold of the CD from other libraries.
The bad news: this may take a while.

Well, I can always fall back on the YouTube link that was provided.


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## Art Rock

*Byrd: Infelix Ego
*
I have this on CD (Oxford Camerata, Summerly, Naxos), but it's been a while since I played it, so I listened just now. I love the atmosphere created by the a capella voices - any instrumental accompaniment would just get in the way. However, I do not get any association with the subject of suffering ("Wretch that I am" - the text was composed in prison by Girolamo Savonarola, after he was tortured on the rack, and two weeks before he was burned at the stake in Florence). Instead the whole piece reflects the final part of the text ("What therefore shall I do? Shall I despair? Far from it. God is merciful, my Saviour is loving. God alone therefore is my refuge..."). Perhaps I'm looking at this too much from the point of view of someone who loves the romantic period. Anyway, minor quibble aside, I really enjoyed listening to this again.

My evaluation: Important.


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## Tchaikov6

*Pérotin: Viderunt omnes*

An impressive piece certainly. I would call it a great piece but it doesn't connect to me that well. That's okay, because this piece has a sort of life and energy that makes chills run down my spine. Maybe it's the idea that this music was written hundreds of years ago, it's almost like I am communicating with people of the 1200s. So I can certainly appreciate Viderunt omnes. What's shocking about it as well are the harmonies. It doesn't conform to the harmonic conventions of the times, because... well... there were no harmonic conventions of the times. Yes there were ideas of what good music and bad music was, but this was a time of exploration and adventure in the boundaries of what sound and music is. You can hear the excitement in Perotin's heavenly music.

Not my favorite type of music but it worked for what it was.

I suppose I should begin some sort of rating as well.

10= Utter Masterpiece and all time favorite
9= Masterpiece
8= Amazing
7= Good
6= Solid
5= Decent
4= Mediocre
3= Poor
2= Terrible
1= I wish this piece never existed

I rarely give out 1s (or 10s for that matter).

Here are the four pieces I've reviewed rated:
Clowns und Kinder - 6.5
Planctus David super Saul et Jonatha - 4.5
Hutongs of Peking - 5
Viderunt omnes - 5.5


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## Tchaikov6

Wow, we've already gotten 11 reviews, nice job everyone!
Here's an update with links:

Tchaikov6 - 4/10
Clowns und Kinder- https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-3.html?highlight=#post1729288
Planctus David super Saul et Jonatha-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-3.html#post1729474
Hutongs of Peking-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-4.html#post1729487
Viderunt omnes-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-4.html?highlight=#post1729521

Bulldog - 1/10
Well-Tempered Clavier-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-3.html?highlight=#post1729307

Art Rock - 4/10
Hutongs of Peking-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-3.html?highlight=#post1729309
Planctus David super Saul et Jonatha - 
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-3.html?highlight=#post1729335
Well-Tempered Clavier-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-3.html?highlight=#post1729355
Infelix ego-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-4.html#post1729518

science - 2/10
Well-Tempered Clavier-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-4.html#post1729476
Viderunt omnes - 
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-4.html?highlight=#post1729501


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## Art Rock

*Beethoven: Choral Fantasy
*
Another one I have on CD, by the Dresdner Philharmonie under Kegel, with Roesel on piano and the Runfunkchor Leipzig, on Capriccio. In my memory a piece that I do not like at all, but let's give it another try. It's a strange piece, starting with a few minutes of piano solo, which is decent but nothing memorable. After the orchestra sets in sotto voce at least a bit of a dialogue is starting, with passages that would not be amiss in parts of his better piano concertos (3-5). As the orchestra starts taking up a larger role, this effect is enhanced, and the piece continues to improve. Had the piece concluded around the 3/4 mark with a suitable end, I would have probably rated this as 'neutral' or even 'important', and definitely higher than the first two piano concertos. Unfortunately though he ends the piece with lots of vocals. And there lies the rub. There is something in the way Beethoven writes for vocals that I can't stand - to me it all sounds forced and too often banal. Many of my favourite pieces of classical music are vocal, but every time a Beethoven piece contains vocals, I quit. Even the most famous pieces like the 9th and the Missa Solemnis hit rock bottom in my appreciation.

My evaluation: Not required (for me).


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## Bulldog

science said:


> I'll do *
> 
> From the POV of me as a listener, I enjoy counterpoint in general. It's a fun mental challenge. Like so many of Bach's short works, each of these preludes and fugues is - since I can do poetic cliche better than actual analysis, and it remains more popular anyway - like a multifaceted gem that Bach slowly turns, letting the light shine on each surface. To me, they are primarily intellectual works with negligible emotional content.*


*

I'm amazed that you consider the WTC to have negligible emotional content. I find it to have every emotion known to humans, and each prelude and fugue strikes directly to my head, heart and soul.*


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## Tchaikov6

Bulldog said:


> I'm amazed that you consider the WTC to have negligible emotional content. I find it to have every emotion known to humans, and each prelude and fugue strikes directly to my head, heart and soul.


I haven't written my review of WTC yet but I was going to touch on this. If anyone every accuses Bach's music of being "technical" and "cold" I would direct them straight to WTC. I'm re-listening to Richter's recording and the first thirty minutes alone just have an awe-inspiring depth of emotion... that C-sharp Minor P + F from Book 1...:angel:


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## science

Art Rock said:


> The good news: the local library had the Perotin CD with the Hilliard Ensemble.
> The bad news: when I played it, track 2 (the selected one) turned out to be corrupted.
> The good news: the local library will check whether they can get hold of the CD from other libraries.
> The bad news: this may take a while.
> 
> Well, I can always fall back on the YouTube link that was provided.


That CD is worth the money. It's a real classic in the world of early music, maybe even the most beloved recording by the Hilliard Ensemble.


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## science

Withdrawn........


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## Schoenberg

Fritz Kobus said:


> This one, I take it, would be the full opera? Or is it only the overture?


Yep, the intention is for it to be the full opera.


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## science

Withdrawn.......


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## science

Withdrawn......


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## Schoenberg

science said:


> You guys need to understand - I would NOT like the WTC as much if it had the kind of emotional intensity for me that you guys say it has for you. I don't listen to music for that. I don't want rapturous whatevers. Swept away. Sublime emoting of the soul. That kind of thing makes me want to hit people. My emotional life is too intense anyway.
> 
> The only emotions that I can really tolerate a great deal of in music are anger and bitterness. I love those. Any intense sweetness had better come after a _lot_ of that or else it feels fake to me.
> 
> But good ideas, now there's beauty. You ever try to write counterpoint? I have. It doesn't take much of that to have a whole new, unemotional, intellectual, and very, very profound appreciation for what people like Bach achieve. I don't know what to compare it to.
> 
> And great math is beautiful in the same way. I mentioned Euler for a reason. There are times going over Euler's proofs that I feel something very much like love. Not in an emotional sense, in a deeper, calmer, intellectual sense. It's just so beautiful, so elegant, so perfect and surprising. It's not cold or warm, it transcends temperatures.
> 
> Mere emoting - any 3-chord garage band can do it.
> 
> The point is that coming from me, calling it intellectual is a compliment, not an insult.
> 
> Anyway, whatever.


I think you are confusing sentimentality with pure, raw emotion.


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## science

If a mod wants to clean up the thread by deleting the posts I've withdrawn, I'd understand that very well.


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## Tchaikov6

science said:


> I'm sorry, guys, I can't do this. I know that the invitation was meant in a friendly way but I cannot participate in this kind of thing. Though I do not want to share my feelings about works of music here, I genuinely hope all of you have a good time with this.


science... I'm confused, do you want me to remove your nomination from this Hall of Fame, and drop out? If so, I'm not sure I understand why. Why do you feel it is so difficult to write your opinions on pieces?


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## Tchaikov6

Well, anyways...

*Beethoven: Choral Fantasy*

I've got mixed feelings about this one. I liked the ideas in the piece, there were some fantastic melodies and you can really hear the Beethoven "oomph" in it. But it just lacks the power and cohesiveness of other Beethoven works I like more. Maybe on a second listen I would appreciate better how the parts tie together at the end. And speaking of the end, I did like it! Totally a precursor to the ninth symphony, and it was a pretty cool ending overall.

So, good piece with some major flaws.

5/10


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## science

Tchaikov6 said:


> science... I'm confused, do you want me to remove your nomination from this Hall of Fame, and drop out? If so, I'm not sure I understand why. Why do you feel it is so difficult to write your opinions on pieces?


I don't value my opinions about great works of music enough to share them - I believe no one else should value them enough to read them. I don't think I should say more about that. You just continue on without me!


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## Tchaikov6

All right, science is officially removed

OUT OF HALL OF FAME:
*Byrd: Infelix ego*


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## Tchaikov6

If anyone viewing would like to join to fill science's spot, feel free to send me a PM or just nominate on the thread.


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## Bulldog

Time for me to report on *Beethoven's Choral Fantasy*. I listened to my favorite version played by Melvyn Tan and conducted by Roger Norrington (period instruments).

The first 5 minutes or so are a pianistic drag until the basic theme enters. That theme is very attractive, but I find it overused although the choral section does present some variety.

So, a great theme and wonderful/rousing vocal parts do much to offset the ho-hum beginning and general repetition. Overall, I give the work an 8 out of 10 and will likely rank it in the top half of the list.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

science said:


> I don't value my opinions about great works of music enough to share them - I believe no one else should value them enough to read them. I don't think I should say more about that. You just continue on without me!


I respect your decision, but I want to say that I enjoyed reading your earlier review of the WTC and thought it offered an interesting perspective on an appeal of music that rarely gets discussed. So I for one would disagree that no one else should value your opinions about music enough to read them; I've consistently enjoyed your input on this forum for as long as I've been a member, even despite the fact that I think our tastes are quite different. You should give yourself a little more credit.


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## Nereffid

Art Rock said:


> The good news: the local library had the Perotin CD with the Hilliard Ensemble.
> The bad news: when I played it, track 2 (the selected one) turned out to be corrupted.
> The good news: the local library will check whether they can get hold of the CD from other libraries.
> The bad news: this may take a while.
> 
> Well, I can always fall back on the YouTube link that was provided.


FWIW, it's on Spotify...

(by the way, I'm very busy this weekend so won't get round to posting my comments on the works until next week)


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## Art Rock

Thanks, I do not spotify.


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## Schoenberg

I have been very busy this week, however I managed to squeeze in listening to Beethoven's choral fantasy. As I prefer to listen to recordings with the score attached whenever possible instead of listening to the requested recording I rather listened to the one here: 



This may or may not have been a wise choice. I noticed that I enjoyed listening to this work a lot less than I have in the past, which may be the result of listening to this specific recording, or the fact that I am using suboptimal headphones as my good pair of headphones broke recently, or even that I am just finding the flaws of this work that I had missed the first time listening. Either way, should I have time I plan to listen to this work again.

On to the work itself:
This work as many, if not all of you know is heavily criticised for a variety of factors. One of the reasons this work is criticised is for being considered a premature version or rough draft of Beethoven's 9th symphony. However I believe that despite the similarity between both of the works' main themes this criticism is unfair, as despite the similarities to the choral symphony the choral fantasy is much different. Other criticisms of the work are that the piano and choral parts are just tacked on, and not necessary, however to that one must look at the context of the work--the point of the work is to bring together three different, contrasting musical elements (the piano, the orchestra, and the choir) that don't often appear all together at once, for a brilliant joyful finale. The choral fanatasy achieves this purpose brilliantly.

One flaw that I have noticed however is the abrupt transitions between many parts of the work--however this might just be the recording.

Sorry if there are any errors in this post as I did not have much time to write it.


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## Tchaikov6

*Mozart: Piano Concerto No. 23*

How does one write music of such elegance, beauty and grace? It really beats me. Yet Mozart wrote hundreds of amazing pieces such as this. He is the definition of "perfect," even more so than Bach's sublimity. With Bach (whom I like just a tad more than Mozart) we get blends of chords that are far from perfect, listening to the WTC the harmonies are just so radical.

I digress, this is not about Bach. It's about Mozart and his amazing Piano Concerto No. 23. I loved the performance by Perahia, it was clean and crisp with a good ear for what Mozart should sound like. And boy does Mozart sound good. This concerto contains some of his most memorable melodies and a great development section in the first movement. It's truly a wonder to hear and listen to, and the thirty minutes fly by.

8.5/10 (Somewhere between "Amazing" and "Masterpiece")


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## Portamento

I don't like arbitrarily rating works, but I'll do it this one time. Life is busy—expect "reviews" to start trickling in over the next few weeks.


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## Art Rock

*Schnittke: Clowns und Kinder
*
I've listened to a decent amount of Schnittke over the past decades, I've often liked or even admired what I was hearing, and yet he has never become one of my favourite composers. This particular work is new for me (I listened to the suggested video). A suite from film music immediately raises the question: does it work without the movie images? Well, yes and no. The music fragments are strong enough to work on their own, and they evoke the theme reasonably well, but they remain fragments, to my taste not really linked together. I also found it lacked a bit of chaos in the postmodern turmoil that characterize his (imo) best pieces - going from memory here, since it's been a while since his music last was in the CD tray. It is not a work I will probably desire to return to, but it did make me decide to explore Schnittke further once more, so that's a good thing.

My evaluation: Neutral (can do with or without).


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## Art Rock

*Beethoven: Fidelio
*
I did not bother to spend two hours listening to this again. I have the version of Bernstein with the Viennese, Janowitz, Kollo, Popp, DFD et al on a double CD. I have tried it several times in the past, but the bottom line is: [1] I don't like any pre-romantic operas, not even Mozart; [2] I don't like Beethoven with voices as noted before. Even the orchestral parts (including the overture) don't do it for me.

My evaluation: not required (for me)


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## Tchaikov6

Portamento said:


> I don't like arbitrarily rating works, but I'll do it this one time. Life is busy-expect "reviews" to start trickling in over the next few weeks.


There's really no need to _rate_ them. As long as you give your thoughts on a piece (factual or opinion, as long as it can stimulate some sort of discussion), that's fine. Just remember you'll have to rank them best to west (which is probably the only required "rating" part of it).


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## SixFootScowl

I am about halfway through the Well Tempered Clavier in my listening, so it will be a while yet. I'll do my best in evaluating but am not qualified as a music critic. In time, but I think I want to post all my thoughts at once. I am glad that I know Fidelio very well having some two dozen CD sets and about half as many on DVD.

But for the Beethoven pieces, all this is totally new music to me.


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## Bulldog

*Pérotin: Viderunt omnes*

I can't say I enjoyed this work. Its 10 minute length seemed like 30 minutes to me. The first section is highly repetitive with a melody line I found rather mundane and unattractive. Things subsequently improve a little, but I still find nothing to hold my interest. There are some works from this general time period I consider moving that take me back to earlier times; this isn't one of them.


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## hammeredklavier

I agree with people's assessment on Beethoven's Choral Fantasy here. I find many of Beethoven's instrumental works great, (I find his Razumovsky quartets much much much greater than the Choral Fantasy) but I find that when Beethoven uses the choir, he gets "trolly" and acts strange. (often gets indulgent on one or two inane themes, for example) One of the biggest issues I have with Beethoven's use of the choir:

Choral Fantasy Op.80:





9th Symphony 4th movement:





Missa Solemnis Op.123: Credo













Having the entire choir "yell" in fortississimo, often with prolonged notes. - Not a good way to invoke drama, I think. I sense Beethoven's admiration for Handel in these but doesn't quite seem to express it genuinely.


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## Tchaikov6

hammeredklavier said:


> I agree with people's assessment on Beethoven's Choral Fantasy here. I find many of Beethoven's instrumental works great, (I find his Razumovsky quartets much much much greater than the Choral Fantasy) but I find that when Beethoven uses the choir, he gets "trolly" and acts strange. (often gets indulgent on one or two inane themes, for example) One of the biggest issues I have with Beethoven's use of the choir:
> 
> Choral Fantasy Op.80:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 9th Symphony 4th movement:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Missa Solemnis Op.123: Credo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Having the entire choir "yell" in fortississimo, often with prolonged notes. - Not a good way to invoke drama, I think. I sense Beethoven's admiration for Handel in these but doesn't quite seem to express it genuinely.


That's a good point... although I actually liked the vocal part in Choral Fantasy, sometimes hearing his vocal music reminds me of the Shostakovich quote... "The rejoicing is forced, created under threat. It's as if someone were beating you with a stick and saying, 'Your business is rejoicing, your business is rejoicing …" of course not talking about Beethoven but applies just as well.


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## Art Rock

*Elgar: Symphony No. 1
*
Setting the scene: I love the romantics and the late romantics, I'm crazy about long symphonies, and I'm a big anglophile musically speaking. Elgar's 1st from 1908 should be right up my alley then. Well.... not 100% going from memory, where I would rank both symphonies below the concertos and the Enigma variations. Let's see how it goes now. I took out my CD (London Philpharmonic, Handley, EMI) to give it a spin again. The short introduction to the first movement is exactly what its marking suggests: nobilmente e semplice. A great theme that will return in various shapes in the rest of the symphony. It reminded me somehow of some of the best parts in the Enigma Variations. The allegro part that follows means business, as already shown by its timing of 17 minutes: nobility, still there, simplicity, out of the window. A long and winding road that leads to a beautiful subdued ending. What follows is a shorter scherzo-like movement, a good choice after the long first movement. I have seen it described as lively, but also as sinister - I'm leaning more towards the latter (I even detect a dash of Mahler here and there), although the last few minutes are more pastoral. The Adagio third movement is everything you would expect from Elgar, and more. There's a genuine feeling of peace and tranquility here, without descending into cowpad territory. The finale is part recapitulation of themes, part expansion, and ends with a beautiful take on the main theme, to come to a confident and triumphant conclusion. All in all, a fantastic experience to hear this symphony again - I've upgraded it a level in my ranking. Tomorrow I'll give the second symphony another go as well. 

My evaluation: Essential.


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## Tchaikov6

*Bach: The Well-Tempered Clavier*

Wow, Bulldog, nominating the GOAT, real cool 

Kidding of course. In all seriousness I was considering nominating this myself, but was pleasantly surprised when it got nominated and I could choose something a little less well known. This piece is easily in my top 100 favorite pieces of all time (even though I haven't really kept track of my top 100, I'm sure it would make the list). I love basically every minute of this piece, and that's impressive considering it's four hours of straight solo piano music, 50% preludes and 50% fugues. Every time I listen to, I discover something new about it, and this time it was how original and cool Bach's harmonies are... My gosh, some of those parts sound like a Shostakovich Prelude and Fugue! I wonder what people would have thought back in the day, or even in the 1800s, when this stuff was rediscovered!

So, yeah, Bach is just a legend. His music not only astounds me, it fully moves me. It's music that I can come to if I want to think about life, or if I _don't_ want to think about life. He's someone I can always come back to, a sort of musical friend that you know will never leave you. Is Bach my favorite composer? The Well-Tempered Clavier alone probably elevates him to that status.

1000000/10 = Utter Masterpiece and Personal Favorite


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## Tchaikov6

We're up to 18 reviews now, nice job!


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

I'll start off with *Schnittke: Clowns und Kinder*

I've heard this before, but it's been a while. I recall that it didn't make much of an impression on me the first time, and, after recently gaining appreciation for Schnittke through works like the Concerto Grosso and Piano Quintet, I thought I might find something in this little work that I missed the first time around, but I was quite disappointed. Mind you, it's not BAD; it's a super fun piece, and very entertaining to listen to. Many of the typical trademarks of Schnittke that make his great works so interesting are there: the diabolical and sardonic sense of humor, polystylism, modal mixture that seems simultaneously off-putting and oddly satisfying, unconventional orchestration (especially note the harp in the fourth mvt), etc. I also enjoyed following his treatment of some clever motifs throughout the work, such as the 7-note scale that first (I think?) appears towards the beginning of the intermezzo in a round.

However, overall I wouldn't consider this to be anywhere close to first-rate music. For me at least, Schnittke is (usually) at his best when there is a sort of "struggle" in the music, a struggle which is served by his odd juxtapositions of styles and unpalatable spins on traditional principles of composition. Here I do not hear such a struggle, and the music comes off as sounding a bit like pastiche at times (mind you, ironic pastiche, but pastiche nonetheless). Even if I'm looking for the effect this music offers (which is not something I'd personally look for very often in classical music specifically), there are plenty of works which are better. It's important to keep in mind that this piece was composed for a film, and so perhaps the standards are different. But if we're evaluating it as standalone art-music, it doesn't have much going for it IMO.


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## Tchaikov6

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> I'll start off with *Schnittke: Clowns und Kinder*
> 
> I've heard this before, but it's been a while. I recall that it didn't make much of an impression on me the first time, and, after recently gaining appreciation for Schnittke through works like the Concerto Grosso and Piano Quintet, I thought I might find something in this little work that I missed the first time around, but I was quite disappointed. Mind you, it's not BAD; it's a super fun piece, and very entertaining to listen to. Many of the typical trademarks of Schnittke that make his great works so interesting are there: the diabolical and sardonic sense of humor, polystylism, modal mixture that seems simultaneously off-putting and oddly satisfying, unconventional orchestration (especially note the harp in the fourth mvt), etc. I also enjoyed following his treatment of some clever motifs throughout the work, such as the 7-note scale that first (I think?) appears towards the beginning of the intermezzo in a round.
> 
> However, overall I wouldn't consider this to be anywhere close to first-rate music. For me at least, Schnittke is (usually) at his best when there is a sort of "struggle" in the music, a struggle which is served by his odd juxtapositions of styles and unpalatable spins on traditional principles of composition. Here I do not hear such a struggle, and the music comes off as sounding a bit like pastiche at times (mind you, ironic pastiche, but pastiche nonetheless). Even if I'm looking for the effect this music offers (which is not something I'd personally look for very often in classical music specifically), there are plenty of works which are better. It's important to keep in mind that this piece was composed for a film, and so perhaps the standards are different. But if we're evaluating it as standalone art-music, it doesn't have much going for it IMO.
> 
> Rating: 3.5/10


Good points, can't say I actually disagree with anything you said... but I still like it. Guess it's just one of my guilty pleasures


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

*Abelard: Planctus David super Saul et Jonatha*

Like others here, I don't often listen to pre-Baroque music, though I often enjoy it when I do. While I enjoyed some parts of it and found that it was structured fairly well, it did not really capture my attention or have much of an effect on me. I found it a little monotonous and repetitive, and the transitions between sections were often a bit abrupt for my liking. Obviously the text is an important part of the work, and I do not understand Latin and did not follow along with a translation, and perhaps I'd have enjoyed it more if I understood the meaning of what was being sung. But I'm generally not one for looking into lyrics unless the music alone is already appealing. Overall a pleasant and somewhat enjoyable piece, but something that, if I were to seek to listen to again, it would be out of historical curiosity rather than any other reason.

I'm not going to do any more ratings out of 10.


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## Haydn man

*Abelard: Planctus David super Saul et Jonatha*

A piece that I struggled with, having tried to let myself be immersed in the music.
It was pleasant and well structured but just didn't do anything for me, I am afraid to say it became like background music.
In fairness this is not a genre that I listen to so do not want to be too critical.

Not something i would put in my collection


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## Haydn man

*Perotin: Viderunt omnes*

The beauty for me here is the ensemble voices and the spirituality that this brings to my mind
Again this is not music I would normally listen to so it is good to hear something different. My problem is that this style of music has something of a sameness about it that makes it all rather blend into one


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## Haydn man

I feel bad here. Having listened to the first two nominations on the list they would struggle to make a personal ‘also rans’ list never mind a HoF. I do not want to upset people who have put forward these works because they are important and valuable to them, hence my feelings.
The trouble is we have some heavyweight masters on the list and this is HoF


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## Art Rock

Haydn man said:


> I do not want to upset people who have put forward these works because they are important and valuable to them, hence my feelings.


I hope we would all agree that we are looking for honest reviews. No sugar coating. Not a single work would meet with unanimous praise anyway.


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## Portamento

Haydn man said:


> I feel bad here. Having listened to the first two nominations on the list they would struggle to make a personal 'also rans' list never mind a HoF. I do not want to upset people who have put forward these works because they are important and valuable to them, hence my feelings.
> The trouble is we have some heavyweight masters on the list and this is HoF


No hard feelings. My nomination reflects a recent effort to get to know more pre-Renaissance music. I do _like_ the Abelard piece, but it isn't my favorite piece of all time or anything-mostly a curveball to see what others thought. It's true that a lot of music from this time period sounds similar, but the same can be said for many Baroque composers. Could you identify an unfamiliar violin sonata as being by Torelli and not Pisendel? I'm sure that someone can, so there's no reason not to believe that there's another "someone" that can do it for, say, Abelard vs. Martin Codax. Is there a point to becoming that much of a specialist? Food for thought.


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## Nereffid

Haydn man said:


> I feel bad here. Having listened to the first two nominations on the list they would struggle to make a personal 'also rans' list never mind a HoF. I do not want to upset people who have put forward these works because they are important and valuable to them, hence my feelings.
> The trouble is we have some heavyweight masters on the list and this is HoF


I'm certainly not bothered by the reactions to the Pérotin - I nominated it because I know it's not the sort of music that many people choose to listen to. Reading why people don't enjoy it is interesting, and when I get round to my review I'll reflect on that.


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## science

I regret deleting my post on Pérotin. I'll try to recreate it here, with a few more details that might be helpful to some (though of course they'll bore others). I don't imagine that it will affect how anyone feels about the music, but would it be bad if, in addition to experimenting with its affects on our emotions, we also tried to understand its historical and intellectual significance?

A few months ago Notre Dame de Paris burned, and the world rightly regarded that as a tragedy. Most people's first associations with that cathedral will be from Victor Hugo's novel, and in fact the romantic tradition of Gothic novels affects how almost anyone in our time thinks or feels about any Gothic cathedral. Victor Hugo wrote a very good story, and I heartily recommend it! I also love the 1923 film based on it.

However, Hugo and the romantics completely misunderstood or misrepresented the nature of Gothic architecture. They represent Gothic as essentially dark, mysterious, haunted by horrific gargoyles. That was not at all how medieval people felt about it.

Let's deal with the gargoyles first, because our thoughts on that are the least relevant to Pérotin. All over the world, wherever you visit traditional temples or palaces or even just villages, you'll see on their exterior boundaries art that is meant to represent something frightening: lions, dragons, warriors, demons, gargoyles, masks of evil spirits, and so on. Why would people do that?

To a world that no longer fears darkness, that regards sickness as a physical phenomenon, a mere technological challenge, and that takes a 70-year lifespan almost for granted, it's just cute art.

But in a world that feared the powers of darkness and knew that death could strike anyone at any moment - because it did - the scarier those guardians are, the safer the people feel. Those are not meant primarily as evil spirits to frighten the residents of the temples, palaces, or villages - they are meant as guardians to frighten away evil spirits from the residents. Or even to frighten away evil people....

Anyway, let's try to view the Gothic tradition not from the point of view of a post-Enlightenment society suffering from the ennui of excessive rationality, needing a little superstition for titillation, but from the point of view of people who'd only known Romanesque architecture.

Deserving the reputation that Gothic architecture has, Romanesque churches were relatively short structures, often actually designed to be defensive. You could take shelter in them when someone raided your village. With tiny windows, they really were dark.

In the 12th century, however, the cathedrals began to grow higher, and windows grew much larger. This became Gothic architecture. For people at the time, these were not at all dark, scary places! They were filled with amazing light, delightfully colored by the stained glass windows. Their vaults and arches pointed proudly to heaven. Built to represent and celebrate prosperity, security, and learning, this could be called the first architecture of enlightenment in Europe since the fall of Rome.

As the interior space expanded, the acoustics changed. The traditional monophonic Gregorian chant sounded _and felt_ different in these high, brightly lit spaces. And soon, a new tradition of music was invented to take advantage of the acoustic properties of the Gothic churches: the Notre Dame School, named for its association with Notre Dame de Paris.

This was still before artists were thought of as idiosyncratic geniuses with privileged access to the muses; they were craftsmen, so their names were usually not recorded. The names of Léonin and Pérotin, the only two members of the Notre Dame school of composers whose names we know, have come down to us almost by accident, recorded by travelers who marveled at the music they made.

What the Notre Dame school invented was the organum - the first step of western music's long exploration of harmony. Pérotin's _Viderunt Omnes_ is one of the two earliest examples of four-part harmony.

We know almost nothing of Pérotin's life, but there is evidence to suggest that _Viderunt Omnes_ was written for Christmas 1198, and it might have been sung in Notre Dame de Paris, though it was still not complete.

Earlier I asked us to imagine how a Gothic cathedral would feel to someone in the twelfth century. Now I hope you'll join me in trying to imagine how _Viderunt Omnes_ would sound -- not to someone modern, in a world saturated with musical noise blasting from speakers at every gas pump, over every aisle of every artificially lit shopping center; a world of radios and earphones and ubiquitous advertising jingles, a world of rock and roll and hip hop and industrial techno and K-pop and orchestras with hundreds of instruments --

No, throw all that away and imagine that you lived in a world where you and your family yourselves made most of the music you heard - lullabies, and other folk songs, usually without instruments. A world where, if you were lucky, you might be able to hear a skilled troubadour now and then. A world where Gregorian chant in your village's dark old Romanesque cathedral would have been the most beautiful music you'd ever heard in your life -- so much that you looked forward to church.

So for some reason you set off down the "road" - what we today would call a path - from your village, perhaps you had the very great fortune of attending a university somewhere, and road led on to road, and you somehow found yourself in Paris for Christmas in 1198. What would _Viderunt Omnes_ sound like to you then?

You might not have liked it! After all, we have conservative ears! But it would have impressed you mightily, as it did (for example) John of Salisbury, who taught at the University of Paris during these years and often heard the new organum tradition:



> The very service of the Church is defiled, in that before the face of the Lord, in the very sanctuary of sanctuaries, they, showing off as it were, strive with the effeminate dalliance of wanton tones and musical phrasing to astound, enervate, and dwarf simple souls. When one hears the excessively caressing melodies of voices beginning, chiming in, carrying the air, dying away, rising again, and dominating, he may well believe that it is the song of the sirens and not the sound of men's voices; he may marvel at the flexibility of tone which neither the nightingale, the parrot, or any bird with greater range than these can rival. Such indeed is the ease of running up or down the scale, such the dividing or doubling of the notes and the repetitions of the phrases and their incorporation one by one; the high and very high notes are so tempered with low or somewhat low that one's very ears lose the ability to discriminate, and the mind, soothed by such sweetness, no longer has power to pass judgment upon what it hears. When this type of music is carried to the extreme it is more likely to stir lascivious sensations in the loins than devotion in the heart. But if it be kept within reasonable limits it frees the mind from care, banishes worry about things temporal, and by imparting joy and peace and by inspiring a deep love for God draws souls to association with the angels.


So sometimes even the conservatives loved it.

_Viderunt Omnes_ celebrates salvation - another concept that means almost nothing today, when even the most ferocious believers shrink from threatening their neighbors with hellfire, which seems to have truly frightened people in the past. People willingly endured the cruelest forms of torture rather than, as they saw it, risk their souls.

But on Christmas, they could celebrate. Here comes Jesus to save us!

Here are the words of Viderunt Omnes, translated by someone at wikipedia:



> All the ends of the earth have seen
> the salvation of our God.
> Rejoice in the Lord, all lands.
> The Lord has made known his salvation;
> in the sight of the nations
> he has revealed his righteousness.


Pérotin chose this text to illuminate with his organum, to fill the amazingly bright space of a brand-spanking-new Gothic cathedral.

Because they loved it so much, they took their time with it. The first syllable, "vi" goes on for so many beats that you'll probably lose track if you try to count them while listening. When it was over, they'd go back to the folk music of their ordinary life, but while they had these well-trained singers in this amazing space, they wanted to enjoy it.

And sure, some old conservatives like John of Salisbury could huff about how inappropriate it was for such sweet, lascivious music to be sung in God's house. But aesthetic conservatives never win - not for long, anyway. And eventually the music that so delights and offends becomes, to later generations, old-fashioned, then strange, and finally almost intolerable.

Perhaps if it's not that sweet or lascivious to us, the fault does not lie solely in the music. Perhaps it's not entirely unfair that at this moment I recall some of my students who declare, after ten minutes of reading _Julius Caesar_, "I don't like Shakespeare!" And I'm sure they don't! And they have every right to share their opinion.

So sure, as a later Frenchman, also known for scandalous harmonies, declared, "Pleasure is the law." And I know that these reflections cannot change how the music makes us feel, especially if we feel something unpleasant like boredom or disgust, but this is why I really don't care how even _I_ feel about this music. You'll note that I do not share - because I really do not care - how this music makes me feel. The point is not for me to get a good feeling for a few minutes - I have options that could serve that purpose better than any medieval music - but to participate for a few minutes in a tradition that is so much greater than my own pleasures.

I had the privilege of visiting Notre Dame de Paris when it was whole, and to tell the truth, it didn't transport me into some sublime ecstasy. It was just pretty nice. It's no Notre Dame de Chartres, for example. And even Chartres is no Versailles, no Angkor Wat, no Empire State Building. To me, it's not even the most impressive Gothic Cathedral in Paris - Sainte-Chappelle rivals it, at least.

But it should hold an unrivaled place in the heart of every classical music lover because of its role in the birth of our tradition, and maybe an appreciation for that will outweigh the boredom or disgust we feel walking around in what we take for its cold darkness.


----------



## Art Rock

*Mozart: Piano Concerto No. 23
*
Mozart is one of my wider circle of favourite composers (coming in around the 10th spot whenever I do a ranking), and the main reason for that is his set of amazing concertos, in particular the one for clarinet and the final 10 or so for piano. Although I know the 23d pretty well, I decided to listen to it again. My CD is by Maurizio Pollini and the Wiener Philharmoniker under Karl Böhm, on DG. The 23d is not my top favourite of the cycle (those would be - boringly predictable - the 20th and 21st), but up there with the best. The opening Allegro is a perfect example of the refined elegance of Mozart at his best - a lovely showcase for the pre-romantic combination of piano and orchestra as equals in a concerto. The cadence (the one used here is by Mozart himself) leads to a brilliant conclusion. The Adagio starts intriguingly with solo piano for about a minute. The orchestra joins in and a beautiful interplay unfolds, subdued and subtle. The mood is sad, but not without hope. The concluding more boisterous Allegro Assai includes some lovely interaction of the piano with the winds section of the orchestra.

For me, this is surely one of the very best piano concertos by the undisputed master of the genre, even though it just falls short in one respect: there is no sweeping instantly memorable melody line here. Still, I'd qualify this as essential.


----------



## Tchaikov6

Updated links to every review (let me know if I missed someone's):
Tchaikov6 - 7/9
Clowns und Kinder- https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-3.html?highlight=#post1729288
Planctus David super Saul et Jonatha-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-3.html#post1729474
Hutongs of Peking-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-4.html#post1729487
Viderunt omnes-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-4.html?highlight=#post1729521
Choral Fantasy-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-5.html#post1729685
Piano Concerto No. 23-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-6.html#post1729920
The Well-Tempered Clavier-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-6.html#post1730952

Bulldog - 3/9
Well-Tempered Clavier-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-3.html?highlight=#post1729307
Choral Fantasy-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-5.html?highlight=#post1729739
Viderunt omnes-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-6.html#post1730513

Art Rock - 8/9
Hutongs of Peking-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-3.html?highlight=#post1729309
Planctus David super Saul et Jonatha - 
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-3.html?highlight=#post1729335
Well-Tempered Clavier-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-3.html?highlight=#post1729355
Choral Fantasy-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-4.html#post1729529
Clowns und Kinder-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-6.html?highlight=#post1730273
Fidelio-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-6.html?highlight=#post1730280
Elgar Symphony No. 1-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-6.html#post1730943
Mozart Piano Concerto 23-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-7.html#post1731310

Schoenberg - 1/9
Choral Fantasy-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-6.html#post1729793

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist - 2/9
Clowns und Kinder- 
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-6.html?highlight=#post173104
Planctus David super Saul et Jonatha-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-7.html?highlight=#post1731093

Haydn Man - 2/9
Planctus David super Saul et Jonatha-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-7.html?highlight=#post1731195
Viderunt omnes-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-7.html?highlight=#post1731200


----------



## SixFootScowl

Fraid my head is spinning. Have a sore throat, sinus infection, and feel run down, but am working on the 4th work in the list (already listened to Science's nomination, but now that one is off the list as I recall). Anyways, I'll get there, slow but sure.

EDIT: I plan to do all my reviews at the same time, write them up, go back and listen to some snippets, etc. Then post. I think I can get through the rest of the works this week anyway.


----------



## Tchaikov6

Fritz Kobus said:


> Fraid my head is spinning. Have a sore throat, sinus infection, and feel run down, but am working on the 4th work in the list (already listened to Science's nomination, but now that one is off the list as I recall). Anyways, I'll get there, slow but sure.


Sorry to hear that, I'm also having issues right now, except it's involving that my school has now BLOCKED this site for everyone along with basically everything else under the sun including YouTube and Spotify... so I'll basically have to do all my listening on a different device now, as even after school I can't access anything!


----------



## SixFootScowl

Tchaikov6 said:


> Sorry to hear that, I'm also having issues right now, except it's involving that my school has now BLOCKED this site for everyone along with basically everything else under the sun including YouTube and Spotify... so I'll basically have to do all my listening on a different device now, as even after school I can't access anything!


Wow, that is extreme. Wonder if it is to keep their internet connection from getting too clogged and slowing the system.


----------



## Tchaikov6

Fritz Kobus said:


> Wow, that is extreme. Wonder if it is to keep their internet connection from getting too clogged and slowing the system.


Apparently they give this reason:








Music is toxic apparently. But yeah it might just be an excuse so they can have a cleaner connection.


----------



## Bulldog

*Mozart: Piano Concerto no. 23*

For many years this concerto was one of my favorites, especially for its opening movement. However, along the way, I have tired of that movement and its repetitive up-down scales. I still consider the work a major achievement, but when I reach for a Mozart piano concerto, I prefer to go with a few others.

It's 8 out of 10 for me.


----------



## Tchaikov6

*Beethoven: Fidelio*

A very well done opera, but not one that I enjoyed all that much. I didn't think I would like it much at the beginning, but then Beethoven's odd opera style kind of seeped in and I started liking it. The story bored me but I left that out when judging the piece since I don't want non-musical elements to get in the way. There were some good arias and ensembles, and some very hummable melodies, so overall a positive experience, just not something I would consider a favorite.

6.5/10


----------



## Tchaikov6

*Elgar: Symphony No. 1*

I really liked this! Elgar has often been a hit or miss composer for me, he often soaks his music in too much thick texture and harmonies. However, he is Gold in this piece. The melodies are hummable and developed well (I really liked the way the opening was developed throughout). There are also hints of composers like Brahms and Mahler throughout this piece, yet Elgar gets his own personal style out here. A fantastic nomination that I suspect I will be returning to in future listenings.

7/10


----------



## Bulldog

*Elgar: Symphony no. 1*

I had heard Elgar's 1st a few times in the past and not cared much for it. I tried to listen to it a couple of times earlier today with fresh ears and success was achieved.

The Symphony has an excellent blend of power/slashing rhythms and comforting sections. Most stunning is the end of the work where the 1st movement's "motto" theme returns in glorious fashion. Almost forgot to mention the beautiful Adagio, one of the best I've heard in recent times.

By the way, this symphony on a good playback system is a sonic treat.

8 stars out of 10.


----------



## Tchaikov6

Bulldog said:


> *Elgar: Symphony no. 1*
> 
> I had heard Elgar's 1st a few times in the past and not cared much for it. I tried to listen to it a couple of times earlier today with fresh ears and success was achieved.
> 
> The Symphony has an excellent blend of power/slashing rhythms and comforting sections. Most stunning is the end of the work where the 1st movement's "motto" theme returns in glorious fashion. * Almost forgot to mention the beautiful Adagio, one of the best I've heard in recent times. *
> 
> By the way, this symphony on a good playback system is a sonic treat.
> 
> 8 stars out of 10.


Certainly, the Adagio is stunningly beautiful.

I think Elgar is underappreciated as a melodist, he crafted fine melodies, sometimes he mucks it up with arbitrary harmonies, but other times it soars to the sky.


----------



## Tchaikov6

Just a bump for this thread. Roughly 23 days until I'd like all the lists to be in.


----------



## Nereffid

*Pérotin: Viderunt omnes*

I'll start my reviews with my own choice. science has written so eloquently on this piece already that there's not much to add. His quote from John of Salisbury captures well the contrast between organum and the older chant, although I can't say I've ever felt any "lascivious sensations in the loins" when listening. Certainly when the chant sections appear in _Viderunt omnes_ it can seem like a sudden gear-change in a time machine. On the Hilliards' recording the first two words take almost four minutes to get through, and yet despite this monumentality and the stasis that such a description might imply, what strikes me most about the work is the sheer sense of forward motion. There's a feeling of creative joy here for me, of boundaries being pushed as new rhythms are introduced and new intricacies are explored. John of Salisbury was right to describe this as "showing off" - of course it is, but then again why shouldn't it be? _Soli Deo gloria_, as another composer was wont to say.

I can't remember when I first heard this work (or the Notre Dame school generally), but certainly what made me pay close attention was reading several years ago of Steve Reich's enthusiasm for Pérotin, to whom he notably paid homage in a 1995 work, _Proverb_. That connection made, it's easy to hear minimalism in Pérotin - and so it's not surprising that many classical listeners don't take to it. A couple of users here used the words "sameness" and "highly repetitive", which are the usual complaints about minimalism. I disagree, as would the minimalists - in fact the thing about your Reich or your Pérotin is that the music is constantly changing. Just not in the way that we love in most other music.

So: essential for me, but it's obvious why others might dislike it.


----------



## Art Rock

By the way I think it would be good to have some guidance before the next round's submissions what you are looking for. Our personal favourites? Less known works we like and would like to show to others? In this first round it's a bit of a strange mix.


----------



## Tchaikov6

Art Rock said:


> By the way I think it would be good to have some guidance before the next round's submissions what you are looking for. Our personal favourites? Less known works we like and would like to show to others? In this first round it's a bit of a strange mix.


It can be either personal favorites or more obscure pieces you'd like to share. Sorry if it's a vague answer, basically just rephrasing your question. To me personally these HoFs are a way to discover new pieces of music (or films on the other forum). I've nominated huge and popular favorites and also more obscure films. To you or someone else it can for the competition or something else. And if I had to choose only one of your options I would likely go with the "personal favorite" one, as these HoFs eventually (I hope) will be included on a sticky thread with all winners listed...

So final "verdict:" choose a piece that you'd most like other people to listen to and/or take recommendations from on , much like the other "sticky" resources.

Sorry if that doesn't really answer your question!


----------



## Art Rock

*Pérotin: Viderunt omnes
*
I listened to the recommended CD (Hilliard Ensemble, ECM - thanks library!). A new name for me, from this era I have heard next to nothing, probably only Gregorian chants, and Hildegard von Bingen, of whom I have a number of CD's. For me it's roughly the same style here, and the link with contemporary minimalism, especially the religious versions, is clear and does not disturb me, as I like to listen to those composers. At 7 minutes it manages not to outstay its welcome, even though there are just six lines of text. All in all a soothing experience, although maybe an actual performance in a church or monastery might add an additional dimension. Glad to have heard it, but a complete CD is a bit much.
My evaluation: Neutral (can do with or without).

PS: I had the feeling this was slightly familiar, and now I know why. I have this work in the version for string quartet by the Kronos Quartet (the CD "Early Music")!


----------



## Tchaikov6

Cool, so Art Rock is finished. Feel free to send me your list whenever you are ready!


----------



## Schoenberg

Perotin: Viderunt omnes

I was particularily interested in listening to this work as I knew that Perotin had a great influence on Steve Reich, one of my favourite composers and arguably the best that is still alive today. Unlike the choral fantasy I listened to the prescribed recording, as I couldn't find one both in 440hz and with a score attached, so instead I listened while scrolling through a pdf copy of the muisc, located here: http://ks.imslp.net/files/imglnks/usimg/2/2a/IMSLP30838-PMLP70211-Perotinus_Viderunt_omnes_PML.pdf Once again I had to use my "backup" headphones.

The work itself: The influence that Perotin has had on Reich is obvious from the first few moments of this work--this work is very similar to minimalistic works. As this work is ancient, it is a choral work with verses from a Psalm as the text. Sadly almost all my knowledge of the latin has been lost so I couldn't understand the text while listening to the music, which I believe hindered the experience as a major aspect of this work is in fact the words themselves, as this work is split into many sections with different themes based off of the syllables and words of the psalm.

Likewise with the last review, as I am very busy there are likely to be errors in the post above, and I apoligize for them.


----------



## Tchaikov6

Reviews update:

Tchaikov6 - 9/9
Clowns und Kinder- https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-3.html?highlight=#post1729288
Planctus David super Saul et Jonatha-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-3.html#post1729474
Hutongs of Peking-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-4.html#post1729487
Viderunt omnes-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-4.html?highlight=#post1729521
Choral Fantasy-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-5.html#post1729685
Piano Concerto No. 23-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-6.html#post1729920
The Well-Tempered Clavier-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-6.html#post1730952
Fidelio-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-8.html#post1731492
Elgar Symphony No. 1-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-8.html#post1731495

Bulldog - 5/9
Well-Tempered Clavier-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-3.html?highlight=#post1729307
Choral Fantasy-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-5.html?highlight=#post1729739
Viderunt omnes-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-6.html#post1730513
Mozart Piano Concerto 23-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-7.html#post1731434
Elgar Symphony 1-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-8.html#post1731565

Art Rock -9/9
Hutongs of Peking-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-3.html?highlight=#post1729309
Planctus David super Saul et Jonatha - 
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-3.html?highlight=#post1729335
Well-Tempered Clavier-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-3.html?highlight=#post1729355
Choral Fantasy-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-4.html#post1729529
Clowns und Kinder-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-6.html?highlight=#post1730273
Fidelio-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-6.html?highlight=#post1730280
Elgar Symphony No. 1-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-6.html#post1730943
Mozart Piano Concerto 23-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-7.html#post1731310
Viderunt omnes-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-8.html#post1732788

Schoenberg - 2/9
Choral Fantasy-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-6.html#post1729793
Viderunt omnes-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-8.html#post1732969

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist - 2/9
Clowns und Kinder- 
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-6.html?highlight=#post173104
Planctus David super Saul et Jonatha-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-7.html?highlight=#post1731093

Haydn Man - 2/9
Planctus David super Saul et Jonatha-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-7.html?highlight=#post1731195
Viderunt omnes-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-7.html?highlight=#post1731200

Nereffid - 1/9
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-8.html?highlight=#post1732748


----------



## SixFootScowl

Art Rock said:


> By the way I think it would be good to have some guidance before the next round's submissions what you are looking for. Our personal favourites? Less known works we like and would like to show to others? In this first round it's a bit of a strange mix.


Guess I wasn't thinking that far ahead, but the question is if we participated in this round, are we committed to continue in future rounds? I iike this and the listening part is easy, but the commenting is the part that takes more work. I will get my comments eventually on the first round (still working through the head cold).


----------



## Tchaikov6

Fritz Kobus said:


> Guess I wasn't thinking that far ahead, but the question is if we participated in this round, are we committed to continue in future rounds? I iike this and the listening part is easy, but the commenting is the part that takes more work. I will get my comments eventually on the first round (still working through the head cold).


There aren't really "rounds," although I guess you could call it that. I was planning to switch up the hosts for the next couple ones, and we could run these things as long as we want. Does anyone want to host the next one? If not I would. I'm also probably going to start some "specialty" HoFs once this one wraps up, i.e. symphonies, works by Bach, etc. I know that the commenting can be taxing sometimes, but remember, if you want all you have to do is say if you liked it or not and explain why. If you can do that in two or three sentences, that's cool.

Also, no, anyone can drop and join these HoFs, although your further participation would be appreciated!

Anyone have suggestions for a specialty HoF?


----------



## Art Rock

Just posting my thoughts here: I like the idea of sharing compositions we like and that others might not know or not know so well, and giving each other feedback. The Hall of Fame idea I'm not really convinced on - especially if you're already talking about wrapping this up - would a Hall of Fame not require at least ten entries if not more? And therefore take a year or more? We could just have sessions like these, some without particular topics (like this first one), some focusing on e.g. one composer, or symphonies, or violin concertos or operas, or whatever.


----------



## Tchaikov6

Art Rock said:


> Just posting my thoughts here: I like the idea of sharing compositions we like and that others might not know or not know so well, and giving each other feedback. The Hall of Fame idea I'm not really convinced on - especially if you're already talking about wrapping this up - would a Hall of Fame not require at least ten entries if not more? And therefore take a year or more? We could just have sessions like these, some without particular topics (like this first one), some focusing on e.g. one composer, or symphonies, or violin concertos or operas, or whatever.


Ok so we have different definitions of "Hall of Fame." Yours is more technically accurate but for me "one Hall of Fame" means one entry, then we would have the "2nd Hall of Fame" with another entry and so on. You're thinking of it like this is just one part in a bigger thing, but they're actually smaller things which will eventually form a collection of our "inductees." I like this discussion though, and I'm totally open to new feedback. Thanks for your suggestions so far.


----------



## Tchaikov6

Also, here's a link to what the project might look like if continued for several years:

https://www.movieforums.com/community/showthread.php?&t=52323

Does that clear up anything at all regarding how this would work long term?


----------



## Art Rock

Yes, that's not what I got from the term Hall of Fame. But it looks more like what I was proposing, so I'm fine with it.


----------



## Nereffid

Yes, the whole idea makes more sense having looked at those film HoFs. Though I think to keep it interesting we should probably avoid the obvious "heavy-hitters" and focus more on lesser-known personal favourites. Personally I'd rather listen to (and see what others think of) unfamiliar pieces. To me, Abelard vs Avshalomov is a more interesting question than WTC vs Mozart 23. And specialty rounds are of much less interest to me.


----------



## Bulldog

Nereffid said:


> Yes, the whole idea makes more sense having looked at those film HoFs. Though I think to keep it interesting we should probably avoid the obvious "heavy-hitters" and focus more on lesser-known personal favourites.


I don't agree. This is a Hall of Fame game which to me means "the best of the best". So as this game moves forward, I'll continue to nominate the works I feel belong in that category.


----------



## Bulldog

*Schnittke - Clowns und Kinder*

Although a long way from prime-time Schnittke, I enjoyed this piece. It has a good mix of energy and lyricism; it's also very much a feel-good work. In 5 sections, the 1st offers boisterous optimism, the 2nd is immediately atttractive, the 3rd injects an element of jazz, the 4th is highly lyrical and mysterious, while the final section is dominated by the piano which is a nice change of instrumentation.

Not a great work but one I would return to now and then. I'll give it 8 out of 10 stars.

My affection for Schnittke's music has grown significantly in recent months, and this work only adds to the lustre.


----------



## Tchaikov6

Nereffid said:


> Yes, the whole idea makes more sense having looked at those film HoFs. Though I think to keep it interesting we should probably avoid the obvious "heavy-hitters" and focus more on lesser-known personal favourites. Personally I'd rather listen to (and see what others think of) unfamiliar pieces. To me, Abelard vs Avshalomov is a more interesting question than WTC vs Mozart 23. And specialty rounds are of much less interest to me.





Bulldog said:


> I don't agree. This is a Hall of Fame game which to me means "the best of the best". So as this game moves forward, I'll continue to nominate the works I feel belong in that category.


These are both completely fine ways to look at it. What made the film HoFs so great was the mix of famous and obscure.


----------



## Bulldog

Tchaikov6:

My post #37 constitutes all I have to say about the Abelard work - please include in your updates.


----------



## Tchaikov6

Bulldog said:


> Tchaikov6:
> 
> My post #37 constitutes all I have to say about the Abelard work - please include in your updates.


Sounds good, it's been added (I'll include it in my next update).


----------



## Bulldog

*Avshalomov: Peking Hutungs*

I found this symphonic poem quite pleasant. However, I don't think it really goes anywhere, and the melodies are not stunning. I wouldn't mind listening to it again in the future, but it wouldn't be a high priority. 7 out of 10 stars.

Owing to its length, I'm saving Beethoven's Missa Solemnis for last. Once that's done, I will be finished with the list unless the Byrd is back on the board.


----------



## Tchaikov6

Bulldog said:


> *Avshalomov: Peking Hutungs*
> 
> I found this symphonic poem quite pleasant. However, I don't think it really goes anywhere, and the melodies are not stunning. I wouldn't mind listening to it again in the future, but it wouldn't be a high priority. 7 out of 10 stars.
> 
> Owing to its length, I'm saving Beethoven's Missa Solemnis for last. Once that's done, I will be finished with the list unless the Byrd is back on the board.


Just to confirm, Beethoven's Fidelio was nominated, not the Missa Solemnis.


----------



## Bulldog

Tchaikov6 said:


> Just to confirm, Beethoven's Fidelio was nominated, not the Missa Solemnis.


My error. Could have been wishful thinking.


----------



## Bulldog

Fritz Kobus said:


> If there are a total of 10 pieces, it will be easy to finish. If there are 100 pieces, it may choke a lot of people out. But even 20 is reasonable, perhaps more.


I think it's important to keep in mind that there are tons of musical works to listen to for those of us who participate in most/all of the games/projects that are in the polls/games subforum or here in Classical Discussion with this project. There's also blind listening threads and a new big-time opera project which will entail a lot of listening. There are some days when I have no time to simply listen to the music I love. Just wanted to point out the challenge.


----------



## Portamento

Avshalomov: Hutongs of Peking

This is a pleasant, atmospheric work containing many of the oriental clichés found in film scores. (Perhaps cliché is the wrong word, but the gently plucked harp and modal flute melodies are what I have been accustomed to think of as "Eastern") In my view, Takemitsu did the best job of synthesizing Eastern (in his case Japanese) musical aesthetics with Western notation. See _In an Autumn Garden_ for gagaku orchestra; the influence is more abstract and less superficial.

I had not heard of Avshalomov before, but I gather that he was instrumental in introducing young Chinese musicians to Western classical music. Today, China is arguably where this music is the most popular. Go figure.


----------



## Nereffid

*Elgar: Symphony no.1*

Elgar's an interesting one for me, because he falls in that group of composers that I find OK generally but never really "get". Brahms and Schumann are two others. They may have a few works that I really like, but most of the time I feel like there's something missing from their music (boilerplate proviso: _I know, it's me, not the music!_). I'm often thinking "it's not _quite_..." or "there isn't _enough_..." (insert various nouns or adjectives as appropriate).
Elgar's 1st symphony has been squarely in that category for me, but actually now that I've listened to it a few times for the purposes of this project, I find less to object to. I've warmed to it quite a bit, in fact. It still doesn't captivate me the way contemporaries like Mahler and Sibelius can, but I suspect it will get the occasional outing in future.


----------



## Haydn man

Bulldog said:


> I don't agree. This is a Hall of Fame game which to me means "the best of the best". So as this game moves forward, I'll continue to nominate the works I feel belong in that category.


I must agree with you on this one
This is for a Hall of Fame not a Hall for the Interesting or Under Appreciated, so bring on the heavyweights and let's compare


----------



## SixFootScowl

Ok I guess I should put in my reviews, brief and subjective though they be. I also am terrible at expressing my thoughts on a piece of music in words, but will give it a shot. These are the notes I wrote down as I listened to each piece:

*Abelard: Planctus David super Saul et Jonatha*
A little sparse musically. Also a style of instrument that is unusual at least from my more classical musical experience. Nice vocals but more like chant. It is a pleasant enough piece, but it is well outside of anything I would purchase.

*Pérotin: Viderunt omnes*
Extremely monotonous. Seemingly very repetitive. Nicely fills out the sound with voices only. I do not find this all that pleasant, but almost annoying.

*Byrd: Infelix Ego*
A very pleasant piece that gives one a calm, almost happy feeling. But after about 5 minutes I tired of it.
*
Bach: The Well-Tempered Clavier, Books 1 and 2*
I like this music. It is quite beautiful, though I find places were i lose interest but then my interest is piqued again and again. But I have not been into much piano and would likely turn to Beethoven's sonatas first. I don't see this work being on my have-to-own-a-copy list.
*
Mozart: Piano Concerto No. 23*
Very beautiful music but seeming to lack the drive that I so much enjoy from Beethoven's music.

*Beethoven: Fidelio*
An awesome opera. It was my gateway drug to the world of opera and a beloved opera to me but I have burned out on it and rarely listen to it anymore.

*Beethoven: Choral Fantasy*
A very special work that I thoroughly enjoy as it gives me a great variety from piano solo to concerto, to choral.
*
Elgar: Symphony No. 1*
Wow, I struggled to tell my self that this is a great symphony but not going to be one I need to pursue, but by the time it ended I was quite pleased with it.

*Avshalomov: Hutongs of Peking*
Quite a delightful and fast moving piece. Enjoyed it much. Not one I will add to my collection though.

*Schnittke: Clowns und Kinder*
A remarkable piece, very engaging. Kind of seems like a fusion of classical and jazz. Not sure what to make of it. Not something I will put in my collection but was worth listening to.

Apart from the Beethoven works which I know well, I never heard any of these before. Might have to check out some more Elgar sometime.


----------



## Tchaikov6

Links update:

Tchaikov6 - 9/9
Clowns und Kinder- https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-3.html?highlight=#post1729288
Planctus David super Saul et Jonatha-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-3.html#post1729474
Hutongs of Peking-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-4.html#post1729487
Viderunt omnes-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-4.html?highlight=#post1729521
Choral Fantasy-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-5.html#post1729685
Piano Concerto No. 23-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-6.html#post1729920
The Well-Tempered Clavier-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-6.html#post1730952
Fidelio-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-8.html#post1731492
Elgar Symphony No. 1-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-8.html#post1731495

Bulldog -8/9
Well-Tempered Clavier-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-3.html?highlight=#post1729307
Choral Fantasy-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-5.html?highlight=#post1729739
Viderunt omnes-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-6.html#post1730513
Mozart Piano Concerto 23-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-7.html#post1731434
Elgar Symphony 1-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-8.html#post1731565
Clowns und Kinder-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-9.html?highlight=#post1733123
Planctus David super Saul et Jonatha-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-3.html?highlight=#post1729353
Hutongs of Peking-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-9.html#post1733233

Art Rock -9/9
Hutongs of Peking-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-3.html?highlight=#post1729309
Planctus David super Saul et Jonatha - 
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-3.html?highlight=#post1729335
Well-Tempered Clavier-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-3.html?highlight=#post1729355
Choral Fantasy-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-4.html#post1729529
Clowns und Kinder-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-6.html?highlight=#post1730273
Fidelio-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-6.html?highlight=#post1730280
Elgar Symphony No. 1-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-6.html#post1730943
Mozart Piano Concerto 23-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-7.html#post1731310
Viderunt omnes-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-8.html#post1732788

Schoenberg - 2/9
Choral Fantasy-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-6.html#post1729793
Viderunt omnes-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-8.html#post1732969

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist - 2/9
Clowns und Kinder- 
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-6.html?highlight=#post173104
Planctus David super Saul et Jonatha-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-7.html?highlight=#post1731093

Haydn Man - 2/9
Planctus David super Saul et Jonatha-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-7.html?highlight=#post1731195
Viderunt omnes-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-7.html?highlight=#post1731200

Nereffid - 2/9
Viderunt omnes-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-8.html?highlight=#post1732748
Elgar Symphony 1-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-9.html?highlight=#post1734511

Portamento - 1/9
Pekings of Hutong-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-9.html#post1733564

Fritz Kobus - 9/9
All Write-Ups-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-10.html#post1734690


----------



## Haydn man

*Bach:The Well-Tempered Clavier*
A fascinating work which has taken me some time to enjoy, having listened over several years
The idea of prelude and fugue each exploring a separate key covering the full tonal range makes this stand out.
I feel this deserves its place as one of the major works of all time
Essential piece for anyone I think


----------



## Haydn man

*Mozart: Piano Concerto 23*
This has long been my favourite classical piece and hence was my nominated work
I am carried along every time I listen to this with a sense of the perfection in Mozart's writing. The first movement is bright upbeat typical of the major key. The second movement just takes my breath away with the simplicity of the piano in the contrasting minor key. The final movement reverts to the major key and brings the work to a delightful conclusion
I only listen to this about once per year, so I don't spoil the magic
No more to be said other than to add that I think this is musical perfection


----------



## Nereffid

*Avshalomov: Hutongs of Peking*
I hadn't heard of the composer or the work before. There's a new recording - or a new release, at any rate - from the Singapore Symphony/Long Yu on Deutsche Grammophon, which I listened to on Spotify. This is a nice piece. The first thing it reminded me of was Respighi, just in terms of the general feel of it. Will be listening again, and actually the other Chinese pieces on that new album seem interesting too.

*Schnittke: Clowns and Kids* (which is what the IMDb calls it)
This is a lot of fun. I was watching something on TV the other day about the early years of film soundtracks, and in some respects this sounds like the sort of generic scene-painting an accompanist might use ("OK, we need maybe a waltz or something for this scene...") but there's a freshness to it that's hard to resist.

Of all the works put forward, these were the two that were completely unfamiliar to me. Good choices, Art Rock and Tchaikov6!


----------



## Haydn man

*Beethoven: Choral Fantasy*
An enjoyable piece with lots of typical Beethoven touches and themes and a stirring choral finale
It does feel a bit disjointed and experimental and you can see the beginnings of the 9th Symphony here. I feel this work is a testing ground for what was to come
Not top draw Beethoven but fun


----------



## Nereffid

*Abelard: Planctus David*

For mainstream classical music, my general attitude to the existence of multiple recordings is that only specialists really need to worry about differing interpretations, and that for a first encounter with a work it probably doesn't matter too much which performance you listen to. For early music, though, it's a different story. I already have a recording of this Abelard piece, on an album of mostly-Hildegard performed by Arianna Savall and Petter Udland Johansen. On this one, Johansen sings solo as a tenor with harp accompaniment, whereas the suggested recording from the Ensemble für frühe Musik, Augsburg has a somewhat gruff lower voice alternating with a countertenor, and the instruments are fiddle, flute and "chitarra saracenica" (I looked it up!). And on top of that, the Johansen version runs to 16 minutes, while the Augsburgers get it done in less than 10 - by the time Johansen reaches the big "Heu" ("Alas") in the 9th verse, the others have already been finished for a minute!

They're practically two different pieces of music. I like the Augsburg one, it's an entertaining performance and done well, but for me it's totally eclipsed by Johansen's version. By stretching it out so long he does run the risk of trying the listener's patience, but on the other hand it now _actually sounds like a lament_. Some of the Augsburg performance sounds downright jolly. Johansen gives it way more depth to my ears. And on a more pedantic note I'd argue that the final lines of the poem make it clear that there should only be one performer.

Thanks to the Johansen recording, this piece will feature quite a bit higher in my rankings than it might otherwise have done.


----------



## Bulldog

*Beethoven - Fidelio*

Fidelio is not a work I often listen to; there are quite a few other Beethoven works that I prefer. However, listening to Fidelio over the past few days, it is loaded with appealing music that is prime-time. I'll likely be giving this opera more spins in the future.

That's it for the list, so I'll be sending in my rankings shortly.


----------



## Tchaikov6

Time for another update. We're well over half way done, with four lists submitted.

Tchaikov6 - 9/9
Clowns und Kinder- https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-3.html?highlight=#post1729288
Planctus David super Saul et Jonatha-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-3.html#post1729474
Hutongs of Peking-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-4.html#post1729487
Viderunt omnes-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-4.html?highlight=#post1729521
Choral Fantasy-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-5.html#post1729685
Piano Concerto No. 23-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-6.html#post1729920
The Well-Tempered Clavier-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-6.html#post1730952
Fidelio-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-8.html#post1731492
Elgar Symphony No. 1-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-8.html#post1731495

Bulldog -9/9
Well-Tempered Clavier-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-3.html?highlight=#post1729307
Choral Fantasy-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-5.html?highlight=#post1729739
Viderunt omnes-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-6.html#post1730513
Mozart Piano Concerto 23-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-7.html#post1731434
Elgar Symphony 1-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-8.html#post1731565
Clowns und Kinder-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-9.html?highlight=#post1733123
Planctus David super Saul et Jonatha-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-3.html?highlight=#post1729353
Hutongs of Peking-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-9.html#post1733233
Fidelio-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-10.html#post1736869

Art Rock -9/9
Hutongs of Peking-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-3.html?highlight=#post1729309
Planctus David super Saul et Jonatha - 
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-3.html?highlight=#post1729335
Well-Tempered Clavier-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-3.html?highlight=#post1729355
Choral Fantasy-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-4.html#post1729529
Clowns und Kinder-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-6.html?highlight=#post1730273
Fidelio-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-6.html?highlight=#post1730280
Elgar Symphony No. 1-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-6.html#post1730943
Mozart Piano Concerto 23-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-7.html#post1731310
Viderunt omnes-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-8.html#post1732788

Schoenberg - 2/9
Choral Fantasy-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-6.html#post1729793
Viderunt omnes-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-8.html#post1732969

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist - 2/9
Clowns und Kinder- 
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-6.html?highlight=#post173104
Planctus David super Saul et Jonatha-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-7.html?highlight=#post1731093

Haydn Man - 5/9
Planctus David super Saul et Jonatha-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-7.html?highlight=#post1731195
Viderunt omnes-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-7.html?highlight=#post1731200
Well-Tempered Clavier-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-10.html?highlight=#post1734949
Mozart Piano Concerto 23-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-10.html?highlight=#post1734950
Choral Fantasy-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-10.html#post1735269

Nereffid - 5/9
Viderunt omnes-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-8.html?highlight=#post1732748
Elgar Symphony 1-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-9.html?highlight=#post1734511
Hutongs and Clowns und Kinder-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-10.html#post1734951
Planctus David super Saul et Jonatha-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-10.html#post1735944

Portamento - 1/9
Pekings of Hutong-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-9.html#post1733564

Fritz Kobus - 9/9
All Write-Ups-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-10.html#post1734690


----------



## Nereffid

*Mozart: Piano concerto no.23*
When I was trying to rank my favourite composers for ArtRock's survey, Mozart finished a little higher than I thought he might, and this concerto is a good example of both sides of that coin. The outer movements are nice, very enjoyable, but for me nothing much more than that - not the sort of music that makes someone a "favourite composer". But then there's the slow movement, which is utterly gorgeous.

*Beethoven: Choral Fantasia*
It's impossible to separate this piece from the context of what came later. Do we like it because of the way it points forward to the Symphony no.9? Or do we dislike it because it comes across as a budget-version of that symphony? Since Beethoven's day, has _anyone_ heard the Fantasia before they heard the symphony? It's a bit of an oddity anyway, however you consider it. Which got me wondering about how many true oddities there are in classical music. Not very many, I think - pretty much everything seems to be part of some genre or sub-genre. I'd say part of the Fantasia's appeal to me is its one-of-a-kind nature.


----------



## Haydn man

*Schnittke: Clowns und Kinder*
Enjoyed this piece with its mix of styles and jazz elements and it certainly feels like film music.
However this left little other impression on me other than it was a fun lightweight piece 
Not one my my collection
I shall explore some more Schnittke though in due course


----------



## Haydn man

*Avshalomov: Hutongs of Peking *
This is really good and something I have never listened to before with a real oriental feel to it and it moves along nicely
I listened to the Shanghai SO recording on DG which sounded first rate.
Having listened to this twice and found it engaging both times it would be a welcome listening in the future
Not a heavyweight piece, not essential to a collection but enjoyable


----------



## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

*Avshalomov: Hutongs of Peking*

I've never heard of this piece or composer before, but I was pleasantly surprised listening to this one. Like Haydn man said, it's not a "heavyweight" piece, but it still managed to be interesting and engaging. The orchestration and harmonic language were enchanting, and the resulting imagery and color were, to my taste, effective. The oriental influence was incorporated well and the piece sounded to me like an expression of genuine immersion rather than superficial fascination or pastiche. I'm left feeling that (1) I'll need to listen to more by this composer and (2) I need to visit China one day.


----------



## Portamento

*Mozart: Piano Concerto No. 23 in A major, K. 488*



Nereffid said:


> The outer movements are nice, very enjoyable, but for me nothing much more than that - not the sort of music that makes someone a "favourite composer". But then there's the slow movement, which is utterly gorgeous.


I can definitely empathize with this. I have mixed feelings about the Classical era in general and will try to express them below without sounding too much like a hypocrite.

First off, I have not heard much Mozart at all. The only other piano concertos I am familiar with are Nos. 21 and 27. This work (No. 23) is much like the others... too much like the others. All three are profound-masterpieces, surely-but I cannot bring myself to appreciate them as much as I want to because of how similar they sound. (There _are_ differences, but that's beside the point.) Outer movements: catchy melodies and fleeting moments of magic in the development sections that retreat into verbatim repetition too quickly for my taste; inner movement: uber-catchy melody that is enough to sustain the whole movement.

Here is where I begin to be a bit of a hypocrite: I have less qualms with the equally-formulaic Baroque era. By definition, these works are more likely to wear their heart on their sleeve, a quality that appeals a lot more to me than the elegant restraint of Mozart. I suppose that is the crux of my problem, not that the works sound similar. Would you rather have 10 similar piano concertos of equal profundity or one that is utterly unique? It's an interesting question to pose until some wise guy points out that "uniqueness" is not binary and more of a spectrum.

I could go on, but that's enough for today.


----------



## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

> First off, I have not heard much Mozart at all. The only other piano concertos I am familiar with are Nos. 21 and 27. This work (No. 23) is much like the others... too much like the others. All three are profound-masterpieces, surely-but I cannot bring myself to appreciate them as much as I want to because of how similar they sound. (There are differences, but that's beside the point.)


I could hardly disagree more. Each of Mozart's late concertos is utterly unique. The similarities are what's "beside the point".


----------



## Nereffid

*Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
Beethoven: Fidelio*

No profound insights from me here! Bach's keyboard music is a common go-to when I can't think what I want to listen to. The WTC doesn't especially stand out from the other works for me, but that's intended as praise for his entire oeuvre, rather than criticism of the WTC.
Meanwhile, Fidelio falls into the category of works I hardly ever get round to, but which are certainly enjoyable when I do get to them. It's been ages since I heard this and there's more to it than I remember. Thinking about it, I'm inclined to say that when it comes to early-19th century opera I prefer the Germanic to the Italian.


----------



## Portamento

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> I could hardly disagree more. Each of Mozart's late concertos is utterly unique. The similarities are what's "beside the point".


Would you mind briefly going through, say, PCs 20-27 and telling me what I should be listening for?


----------



## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

Portamento said:


> Would you mind briefly going through, say, PCs 20-27 and telling me what I should be listening for?


Sorry to dodge the question, but I'm not really sure what you mean by what you "should be listening for". Can you be a little more specific? I'd be happy to answer if I had a better idea about what you mean. However, since you said you're familiar with nos. 21, 23, and 27, I'd _highly_ recommend listening to one of the minor key concertos (20 or 24). You might say they show 
a different "side" of Mozart (fiery, passionate), and that their uniqueness is more pronounced, so to speak. Probably start with no. 20 in D minor. Gulda is best for this one IMO, but Uchida also does a solid job with it. It's really an incredible piece.


----------



## Portamento

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Sorry to dodge the question, but I'm not really sure what you mean by what you "should be listening for". Can you be a little more specific? I'd be happy to answer if I had a better idea about what you mean.


What is it in each of the late concertos that is utterly unique to you?

I'll take a look at No. 20. Is anyone here familiar with Bavouzet's Mozart? (Sorry to derail this thread a bit.)


----------



## Tchaikov6

Portamento said:


> What is it in each of the late concertos that is utterly unique to you?
> 
> I'll take a look at No. 20. Is anyone here familiar with Bavouzet's Mozart? (Sorry to derail this thread a bit.)


You're not derailing at all, this is exactly what I had hoped for with this project!

And no, not at all familiar.


----------



## Tchaikov6

Quick bump for this thread.

*Seven* days until my goal deadline, so not sure if everyone will be able to do that.


----------



## Haydn man

*Elgar: Symphony No.1*
This has been a favourite for many years with its sweeping themes and a real British feeling to the music
I remember having the Solti version on vinyl (a Gramophone rosette if memory serves me correctly) and getting the Previn version in the early days of CD 
Some may criticise the music as somewhat old fashioned, I would agree but when it is so well written then who cares
My wife would say it is a bit long and it is not one of her favourites, but this just proves she is not perfect
Certainly a work I feel is essential to my collection


----------



## Haydn man

*Beethoven: Fidelio*
I am not an opera fan but do keep trying with an open mind view
Easily recognisable as Beethoven and different to the Italian operas that I am more familiar with
Is this a HoF candidate in the opera world? Can't say I know the answer to that. Would I listen again to this? Yes I would, so i might change my view.
For me this is a curiosity to be tried again in the future


----------



## Haydn man

Having now listened to all 9 my personal observations would be 
- there is an interesting mix of music nominated
- some nominations are typical heavyweights and obvious if somewhat unoriginal choices (mine included)
- the lesser known works were enjoyable and glad I listened to them all
- I did find some pieces to be lightweight and to coin a phrase ‘out of their depth’ in a HoF voting process
I shall await the final results with interest having submitted my voting list by PM


----------



## Tchaikov6

Haydn Man, I can’t seem to find your posts for the Schnittke and Hutongs of Peking, did I miss them somewhere?


----------



## Art Rock

Haydn man on Hutongs: https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-10.html#post1737124
Haydn man on Schnittke: https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-10.html?highlight=schnittke#post1737120

the search thread button rocks.


----------



## Tchaikov6

Art Rock said:


> Haydn man on Hutongs: https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-10.html#post1737124
> Haydn man on Schnittke: https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-10.html?highlight=schnittke#post1737120
> 
> the search thread button rocks.


Sorry I'm on mobile so I didn't know there is a search button.


----------



## Tchaikov6

About three days left for the first deadline. Six people have submitted lists.

Here's another update:

Tchaikov6 - 9/9
Clowns und Kinder- https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-3.html?highlight=#post1729288
Planctus David super Saul et Jonatha-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-3.html#post1729474
Hutongs of Peking-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-4.html#post1729487
Viderunt omnes-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-4.html?highlight=#post1729521
Choral Fantasy-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-5.html#post1729685
Piano Concerto No. 23-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-6.html#post1729920
The Well-Tempered Clavier-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-6.html#post1730952
Fidelio-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-8.html#post1731492
Elgar Symphony No. 1-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-8.html#post1731495

Bulldog -9/9
Well-Tempered Clavier-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-3.html?highlight=#post1729307
Choral Fantasy-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-5.html?highlight=#post1729739
Viderunt omnes-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-6.html#post1730513
Mozart Piano Concerto 23-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-7.html#post1731434
Elgar Symphony 1-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-8.html#post1731565
Clowns und Kinder-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-9.html?highlight=#post1733123
Planctus David super Saul et Jonatha-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-3.html?highlight=#post1729353
Hutongs of Peking-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-9.html#post1733233
Fidelio-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-10.html#post1736869

Art Rock -9/9
Hutongs of Peking-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-3.html?highlight=#post1729309
Planctus David super Saul et Jonatha - 
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-3.html?highlight=#post1729335
Well-Tempered Clavier-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-3.html?highlight=#post1729355
Choral Fantasy-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-4.html#post1729529
Clowns und Kinder-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-6.html?highlight=#post1730273
Fidelio-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-6.html?highlight=#post1730280
Elgar Symphony No. 1-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-6.html#post1730943
Mozart Piano Concerto 23-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-7.html#post1731310
Viderunt omnes-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-8.html#post1732788

Schoenberg - 2/9
Choral Fantasy-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-6.html#post1729793
Viderunt omnes-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-8.html#post1732969

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist - 3/9
Clowns und Kinder- 
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-6.html?highlight=#post173104
Planctus David super Saul et Jonatha-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-7.html?highlight=#post1731093
Hutongs-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-10.html#post1737430

Haydn Man - 9/9
Planctus David super Saul et Jonatha-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-7.html?highlight=#post1731195
Viderunt omnes-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-7.html?highlight=#post1731200
Well-Tempered Clavier-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-10.html?highlight=#post1734949
Mozart Piano Concerto 23-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-10.html?highlight=#post1734950
Choral Fantasy-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-10.html#post1735269
Elgar - 
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-11.html?highlight=#post1739732
Fidelio-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-11.html?highlight=#post1739733
Hutongs of Peking-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-10.html#post1737124

Nereffid - 9/9
Viderunt omnes-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-8.html?highlight=#post1732748
Elgar Symphony 1-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-9.html?highlight=#post1734511
Hutongs and Clowns und Kinder-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-10.html#post1734951
Planctus David super Saul et Jonatha-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-10.html#post1735944
Mozart and Choral Fantasy-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-10.html?highlight=#post1737097
WTC and Fidelio-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-11.html?highlight=#post1737735

Portamento - 2/9
Pekings of Hutong-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-9.html#post1733564
Mozart Piano Concerto 23-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-10.html?highlight=#post1737554

Fritz Kobus - 9/9
All Write-Ups-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-10.html#post1734690Schnittke-
https://www.talkclassical.com/63632-tc-hall-fame-fusion-10.html?highlight=schnittke#post1737120

We've got only 20 reviews remaining.


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## Portamento

Sorry, I'll have to take the extension on this one.


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## Tchaikov6

Portamento said:


> Sorry, I'll have to take the extension on this one.


No worries, plenty of time still.


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## Tchaikov6

Another bump.......


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## Tchaikov6

January 22 is the disqualification date by the way, so y’all have plenty of time.


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## Tchaikov6

Another bump... I’ve been very busy lately so sorry if I missed anyone’s reviews.


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## Schoenberg

Sorry for the inconvenience, but due to some unforeseen circumstances I will be unable to complete this Hall of Fame.


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## Tchaikov6

So Fidelio will no longer be necessary to hear for the remaining two (Portamento and BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist).


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## Tchaikov6

19 days left now, so a little less than three weeks.


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## SixFootScowl

Tchaikov6 said:


> 19 days left now, so a little less than three weeks.


Your patience is admirable!


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## Tchaikov6

Fritz Kobus said:


> Your patience is admirable!


:lol: 's all good, this is the time limit I set at the beginning anyways.


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## Tchaikov6

Could BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist and Portamento just reply to this thread confirming you are still in? Portamento already told me through a PM but I just want to confirm with both of you on this thread.


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## Portamento

Tchaikov6 said:


> Could BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist and Portamento just reply to this thread confirming you are still in? Portamento already told me through a PM but I just want to confirm with both of you on this thread.


I'm still in. I'll finish off my comments this weekend.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

Tchaikov6 said:


> Could BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist and Portamento just reply to this thread confirming you are still in? Portamento already told me through a PM but I just want to confirm with both of you on this thread.


I'm still in as well. Will finish soon enough (i.e. before the deadline).


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## Tchaikov6

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> I'm still in as well. Will finish soon enough (i.e. before the deadline).


Awesome, thank you!


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## science

Some of you might want to know that Avshalamov's Hutongs of Peking, which was featured in the first round here, is up for promotion in the 92nd tier, part 1 thread.


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## Portamento

Elgar: Symphony No. 1 in A-flat major, Op. 55 

This is not something I would usually listen to. Outside of a few composers, my ability to comment on the Romantic era is poor. That being said, I can identify the strong Wagnerian influence here. There is also the use of cyclic form (which makes many of Franck's works so effective) with that grand opening melody making appearances throughout the symphony. For a work that is as long as it is, there were no sections that I felt dragged. It didn't blow me away, but that can probably be attributed to my listening preferences in general. The thematic material is very solid and there was nothing Elgar did that I thought was "wrong."


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## Tchaikov6

A week (7 days) left now.


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## Tchaikov6

3 days left folks!


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

*Elgar - Symphony no. 1*

This was my nomination, a piece I discovered a few months ago and was blown away by upon first hearing. A few words come to mind when listening to this piece: noble, majestic, and, above all, passionate. The first movement begins with a bold and stately introduction, which, as Elgar wrote, is "noble and elevating... above every day and sordid things". The music then completely changes tonality, texture, and mood, and transitions into an energetic and somewhat dramatic melody which forms the first theme of the sonata-allegro which comprises the remainder of the movement. Elgar's writing here is terse and economical, deriving a great variety of expressive possibilities from little material. It is compositionally impressive and holds together well. The movement ends on quietly and is followed by a bubbling and at times sinister scherzo which seems to pick up where the first movement left off. Like the first movement, Elgar also uses thematic development to great effect here, and the more percussive sections are tastefully proportioned and orchestrated so as to not disrupt the pervasive joviality of the movement. The third movement, which actually derives its first theme directly from material encountered in the second movement (it's cool to hear how the same music can sound so different!) is simply gorgeous, featuring lush late-Romantic harmonies and poignant writing, particularly for the woodwinds. The finale is epic and cyclical, ending with a gorgeous return to the introduction from the first movement as a brass chorale with lovely and full orchestration to accompany it. Overall a very impressive and enjoyable work, IMO a contender (along with Mahler's "Titan") for the second finest first symphony ever composed.


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## Tchaikov6

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> *Elgar - Symphony no. 1*
> 
> This was my nomination, a piece I discovered a few months ago and was blown away by upon first hearing. A few words come to mind when listening to this piece: noble, majestic, and, above all, passionate. The first movement begins with a bold and stately introduction, which, as Elgar wrote, is "noble and elevating... above every day and sordid things". The music then completely changes tonality, texture, and mood, and transitions into an energetic and somewhat dramatic melody which forms the first theme of the sonata-allegro which comprises the remainder of the movement. Elgar's writing here is terse and economical, deriving a great variety of expressive possibilities from little material. It is compositionally impressive and holds together well. The movement ends on quietly and is followed by a bubbling and at times sinister scherzo which seems to pick up where the first movement left off. Like the first movement, Elgar also uses thematic development to great effect here, and the more percussive sections are tastefully proportioned and orchestrated so as to not disrupt the pervasive joviality of the movement. The third movement, which actually derives its first theme directly from material encountered in the second movement (it's cool to hear how the same music can sound so different!) is simply gorgeous, featuring lush late-Romantic harmonies and poignant writing, particularly for the woodwinds. The finale is epic and cyclical, ending with a gorgeous return to the introduction from the first movement as a brass chorale with lovely and full orchestration to accompany it. Overall a very impressive and enjoyable work, IMO a contender (along with Mahler's "Titan") for the second finest first symphony ever composed.


Thanks so much for nominating this, it was my favorite "new piece" of this HoF!


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## Portamento

Schnittke (arr. Strobel): _Clowns und Kinder_ Suite

Yet another example of Schnittke's knack for orchestration. His film scores are always eclectic and enjoyable, this one being no different. There's something about these Soviet-era film scores that is utterly compelling -- maybe it's their extensive use of the electic guitar. All of Schnittke's film scores (that I've heard) imbue a sense of nostalgia that isn't usually present in his concert-hall works. Solid stuff.

Beethoven: Fantasia in C minor, Op. 80

The critical consensus (if that means anything) says that this is second-rate Beethoven. I think that the work would have been helped by a less trite libretto, though that matters less if you can't speak German. On a pure musical level, there were beautiful moments but nothing that got me on the edge of my seat. Maybe I'm not hearing the right performance, as that tends to greatly change my perception of Romantic-era works in particular.


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## Tchaikov6

*Two* days now!


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## Tchaikov6

One day! I'll be taking a final tally around 9PM CST tomorrow night.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

Tchaikov6,

Sincere apologies, but I'm not going to be able to complete this task. One issue is that I've been busier than expected recently, but more importantly I simply don't feel comfortable opining on music in this matter. If I'm going to make these sorts of expository evaluations and judgements of compositions, I feel as if I need to put in substantial time and effort into exploring and analyzing each piece to the point where this whole thing becomes a daunting project that I have neither the time nor willpower to approach right now. I feel as if the reviews I've written so far are inadequate (I knew that at the time of posting them since they were, well, "cop-outs") and I'd feel guilty continuing. I hope you can understand.

Nevertheless, thanks for running this game. It was really fun to listen to everyone's selections, and I discovered some great music in the process. I'm glad you enjoyed the Elgar symphony; it really is a great piece.


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## Tchaikov6

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Tchaikov6,
> 
> Sincere apologies, but I'm not going to be able to complete this task. One issue is that I've been busier than expected recently, but more importantly I simply don't feel comfortable opining on music in this matter. If I'm going to make these sorts of expository evaluations and judgements of compositions, I feel as if I need to put in substantial time and effort into exploring and analyzing each piece to the point where this whole thing becomes a daunting project that I have neither the time nor willpower to approach right now. I feel as if the reviews I've written so far are inadequate (I knew that at the time of posting them since they were, well, "cop-outs") and I'd feel guilty continuing. I hope you can understand.
> 
> Nevertheless, thanks for running this game. It was really fun to listen to everyone's selections, and I discovered some great music in the process. I'm glad you enjoyed the Elgar symphony; it really is a great piece.


All right. No worries, thanks for letting me know.

I guess this doesn't work as well with music as it does for movies, and I understand that. I just thought it would be a fun idea. If anyone has suggestions on how to make it better, that would be cool, but if not, I think I'll just cancel the future installments I had planned.

Either way, I'll still be tallying (and possibly posting) results tonight.


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## Bulldog

Tchaikov6 said:


> I guess this doesn't work as well with music as it does for movies, and I understand that. I just thought it would be a fun idea. If anyone has suggestions on how to make it better, that would be cool, but if not, I think I'll just cancel the future installments I had planned.


I'll offer a couple of suggestions:

1. I don't think "Hall of Fame" was clearly defined. To me, it's the best of the best. Some other participants had different thoughts about it.

2. I thought the time frame allowed for submittals and reviews was way too long (about 2 months). The result was a lack of momentum and continuity. Two months for 10 pieces of music? If you look at the huge science project, you'll see that *daily participation* is a constant.

3. The requirement for a review might have been a problem. I didn't want to do any reviews - did them only because of the requirement. My review days for Musicweb International are far behind me.


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## Tchaikov6

Bulldog said:


> I'll offer a couple of suggestions:
> 
> 1. I don't think "Hall of Fame" was clearly defined. To me, it's the best of the best. Some other participants had different thoughts about it.
> 
> 2. I thought the time frame allowed for submittals and reviews was way too long (about 2 months). The result was a lack of momentum and continuity. Two months for 10 pieces of music? If you look at the huge science project, you'll see that *daily participation* is a constant.
> 
> 3. The requirement for a review might have been a problem. I didn't want to do any reviews - did them only because of the requirement. My review days for Musicweb International are far behind me.


You're totally right about the second two. I'm going to use my "suggested" time frame at the beginning (two days per piece of music instead of seven days) if I do this again. Also, I'm probably not going to require reviews next time.

However, I'm not sure how much I can do about the "Hall of Fame" definition, simply because everyone is going to have their own idea of what that means, and I can't force them to nominate what they think is the greatest piece of music ever written.

Thanks so much for your suggestions!


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## Tchaikov6

And I also think a lot of people were overthinking this by "stressing out" about writing reviews and ranking, and analyzing the pieces. This was just meant to be a fun way to get to know new pieces that others might love. Perhaps the review idea was not good because that signifies that one must "analyze" or "rate" the pieces, but really, this was just supposed to be a fun little game along the lines of Bulldog's games.


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## SixFootScowl

Tchaikov6 said:


> And I also think a lot of people were overthinking this by "stressing out" about writing reviews and ranking, and analyzing the pieces. This was just meant to be a fun way to get to know new pieces that others might love. Perhaps the review idea was not good because that signifies that one must "analyze" or "rate" the pieces, but really, this was just supposed to be a fun little game along the lines of Bulldog's games.


I'll say the tough part for me was writing the reviews. Well, mine were more impressions than reviews, but I did get something down on paper. But I look forward to the new improved Hall of Fame or whatever you decide to call it. The requirement to listen to each piece is good because on other polls I have been guilty of voting for what I like while not having heard the majority of what is in the poll.


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## Tchaikov6

All right, I've tallied up the votes, there were originally 10 pieces in it, the number dropped to 6 by the end. So, eh 60 percent participation rate, not too bad, I guess:lol:

Anyways, results starting now.


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## Tchaikov6

5. Pérotin: Viderunt omnes
Nominated by: Nereffid
26 points (1, 4, 4, 5, 6, 6)​


Nereffid said:


> *Pérotin: Viderunt omnes*
> 
> On the Hilliards' recording the first two words take almost four minutes to get through, and yet despite this monumentality and the stasis that such a description might imply, what strikes me most about the work is the sheer sense of forward motion. There's a feeling of creative joy here for me, of boundaries being pushed as new rhythms are introduced and new intricacies are explored. John of Salisbury was right to describe this as "showing off" - of course it is, but then again why shouldn't it be? _Soli Deo gloria_, as another composer was wont to say.





Tchaikov6 said:


> *Pérotin: Viderunt omnes*
> 
> An impressive piece certainly. I would call it a great piece but it doesn't connect to me that well. That's okay, because this piece has a sort of life and energy that makes chills run down my spine. Maybe it's the idea that this music was written hundreds of years ago, it's almost like I am communicating with people of the 1200s. So I can certainly appreciate Viderunt omnes. What's shocking about it as well are the harmonies. It doesn't conform to the harmonic conventions of the times, because... well... there were no harmonic conventions of the times. Yes there were ideas of what good music and bad music was, but this was a time of exploration and adventure in the boundaries of what sound and music is. You can hear the excitement in Perotin's heavenly music.


----------



## Tchaikov6

4 (tie). Beethoven: Choral Fantasy
Nominated by: Fritz Kobus
25 points (1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 6)​


Fritz Kobus said:


> *Beethoven: Choral Fantasy*
> A very special work that I thoroughly enjoy as it gives me a great variety from piano solo to concerto, to choral.





Bulldog said:


> So, a great theme and wonderful/rousing vocal parts do much to offset the ho-hum beginning and general repetition. Overall, I give the work an 8 out of 10 and will likely rank it in the top half of the list.


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## Tchaikov6

4 (tie). Schnittke: Clowns und Kinder
Nominated by: Tchaikov6
25 points (3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 6)​


Tchaikov6 said:


> What a fun piece! I love 20th Century Russian music, and Schnittke is certainly one of the many reasons why. I was debating which piece to nominate by him, but I settled on this one because it's short, sweet, and easy to like. It's not deep and powerful like the Concerto Grossos or the Viola Concerto, but it has that oddball Schnittke feel that I always enjoy. Overall just a blast to listen to and a piece that I never grow sick of.





Fritz Kobus said:


> A remarkable piece, very engaging. Kind of seems like a fusion of classical and jazz. Not sure what to make of it. Not something I will put in my collection but was worth listening to.


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## Tchaikov6

3. Avshalomov: Hutongs of Peking
Nominated by: Art Rock
22 points (2, 3, 3, 3, 5, 6)​


Art Rock said:


> I nominated Avshalomov: Hutongs of Peking. I was not quite sure whether we were supposed to nominate our favourite work (which is Mahler's Das Lied von der Erde) or something less known that we like and we think more people should try it (which I went for). Aaron Avshalomov (1894-1965) had an intriguing life. Born in Russia, he moved to the USA after the October revolution, but quickly afterward moved again, this time to Shanghai - to return to the USA in 1947. I picked him and this work because of the China connection. Shanghai is my second home town (my wife is from there), and I have walked through the old neighbourhood (hutongs) of Beijing. The work I selected is a late symphonic poem (1931), and one of my favourites in that genre aside from the usual suspects.





Haydn man said:


> *Avshalomov: Hutongs of Peking *
> This is really good and something I have never listened to before with a real oriental feel to it and it moves along nicely
> I listened to the Shanghai SO recording on DG which sounded first rate.
> Having listened to this twice and found it engaging both times it would be a welcome listening in the future
> Not a heavyweight piece, not essential to a collection but enjoyable


----------



## Tchaikov6

2. Mozart: Piano Concerto No. 23
Nominated by: Haydn Man
17 Points (1, 2, 2, 2, 5, 5)​


Haydn man said:


> *Mozart: Piano Concerto 23*
> This has long been my favourite classical piece and hence was my nominated work
> I am carried along every time I listen to this with a sense of the perfection in Mozart's writing. The first movement is bright upbeat typical of the major key. The second movement just takes my breath away with the simplicity of the piano in the contrasting minor key. The final movement reverts to the major key and brings the work to a delightful conclusion
> I only listen to this about once per year, so I don't spoil the magic
> No more to be said other than to add that I think this is musical perfection





Tchaikov6 said:


> I loved the performance by Perahia, it was clean and crisp with a good ear for what Mozart should sound like. And boy does Mozart sound good. This concerto contains some of his most memorable melodies and a great development section in the first movement. It's truly a wonder to hear and listen to, and the thirty minutes fly by.
> 
> 8.5/10 (Somewhere between "Amazing" and "Masterpiece")


----------



## Tchaikov6

which means the winner is...


----------



## Tchaikov6

1. Bach: The Well-Tempered Clavier
Nominated by: Bulldog
11 points (1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 4)​


Bulldog said:


> I nominated Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier which I find the best music ever written. Each of the 96 pieces is a gem of craftsmanship and inspiration. I am most taken with the many fugues expressing despair that are taken over by exquisite rays of light.
> 
> My preference is to listen to both books in one sitting, and I did just that last night with Belder's harpsichord set on Brilliant Classics. Although I am partial to Bach on harpschord, my favorite version comes from pianist Rosalyn Tureck.





Art Rock said:


> A work I know so well that I'm not going to listen to it for this game.
> 
> The versions I have on CD are Schiff (Decca, piano), Suzuki (BIS, harpsichord), Berbem (Brilliant, Harpsichord).
> 
> Bach is my #1 composer, but in general - not just for Bach - I find solo piano works (let alone harpsichord works) less satisfying than say organ, chamber music, orchestral works, or vocal compositions. That said, the WTC certainly ranks among the best in its genre, even though personally I prefer to listen one CD at a time instead of four in a row.
> 
> My evaluation: Essential.


Congrats on the win Bulldog!


----------



## Tchaikov6

Condensed results:
1. Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier
2. Mozart: Piano Concerto No. 23
3. Ashalomov: Hutongs of Peking
4 (tie). Schnittke: Clowns und Kinder
4 (tie). Beethoven: Choral Fantasy
5. Perotin: Viderunt omnes


----------



## Tchaikov6

Thanks for participating everyone! I know it wasn't an enjoyable experience for a lot of you, but I'd always appreciate it if you ever joined another one of these I might do in the future.


----------



## Art Rock

Tchaikov6 said:


> However, I'm not sure how much I can do about the "Hall of Fame" definition, simply because everyone is going to have their own idea of what that means, and I can't force them to nominate what they think is the greatest piece of music ever written.


You could define it that way, though... Your first post stated: "Classical Music Piece Nominations: Nominate any piece of music you like. There is no length limit, but to be decent you might not want to nominate something like Feldman's String Quartet No. 2 or the Ring Cycle." This did not suggest to me that I should submit what I consider the best of all time.

Personally though, I'd prefer a game along these lines where participants submit compositions they like a lot and that may be less well known - that way by playing this game, you get to know new pieces and may encounter some real gems you did not know yet.

I liked the requirement of a (short) write-up, it helped me focus. Maybe make it optional, and stress that it does not have to be an essay. The time frame was indeed too long in my opinion.

All in all, thanks for running this. I enjoyed doing this, and I'm willing to play in a next installment, no matter what shape.

PS: I'm not keen on the rule that if a participant drops out, the submitted work is no longer in the game. It feels wrong for the players who have already listened to and wrote something about that work.


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## Tchaikov6

Art Rock said:


> You could define it that way, though... Your first post stated: "Classical Music Piece Nominations: Nominate any piece of music you like. There is no length limit, but to be decent you might not want to nominate something like Feldman's String Quartet No. 2 or the Ring Cycle." This did not suggest to me that I should submit what I consider the best of all time.
> 
> Personally though, I'd prefer a game along these lines where participants submit compositions they like a lot and that may be less well known - that way by playing this game, you get to know new pieces and may encounter some real gems you did not know yet.
> 
> I liked the requirement of a (short) write-up, it helped me focus. Maybe make it optional, and stress that it does not have to be an essay. The time frame was indeed too long in my opinion.
> 
> All in all, thanks for running this. I enjoyed doing this, and I'm willing to play in a next installment, no matter what shape.
> 
> PS: I'm not keen on the rule that if a participant drops out, the submitted work is no longer in the game. It feels wrong for the players who have already listened to and wrote something about that work.


That's true. I'm probably going to add something like "a piece you really enjoy and feel that others should listen to/discover."

About the write-ups, I was thinking of possibly addressing both the time limit as well. It would be 2 days for each piece of music nominated, meaning this would have taken 20 days to do instead of several months. A featured piece nominated would "rotate" every two days and participants would be suggested to listen to that piece during that time. Discussion can then happen, if people are interested, but it wouldn't be required. And then the next piece would rotate in, and so on.

Hopefully we don't get drop-outs in the future, but if we do, I'll definitely consider letting their piece stay in.

Glad you enjoyed it!


----------



## Haydn man

And another thank you from me to Tchaikov6 for all the hard work
I enjoyed listening to all the works, and writing a few sentences of personal thoughts.


----------

