# Large orchestras - Berlioz and Wagner



## AllegroDM

I enjoy listening to classical music and have just started music studies, to learn piano and return to clarinet study.

I've recently read in music literature that Berlioz and Wagner used large orchestras. I read Berlioz used at least 600 members, and Wagner over 100. Have these large orchestras been recreated, say, in the last 20 years?


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## emiellucifuge

Mahler's 8th symphony is still often performed with musicians numbering near 1000
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._8_(Mahler)#Instrumental_and_vocal_forces

Schoenberg's Gurrelieder uses around 400 musicians, and is occasionally performed.


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## Guest

Not sure about that 600 number. Might have been some one off show in the outdoors. (Berlioz didn't fancy outdoors for music; no walls and ceiling for the sound to bounce off of.) Anyway, 600 sounds like hyperbole to me.

And "more than one hundred" could be practically anyone.

But the real reason I dropped into this thread was to point out that Berlioz' large forces were not to produce a gargantuan sound (like Wagner enjoyed) but to have a lot of possibilities of combinations to choose from. Berlioz was essentially a chamber composer who used large ensembles, but rarely the whole ensemble at once. (When he did, though, wow!)

Also, Berlioz used large forces to achieve smooth piano and pianissimo. One trumpet playing piano has a rougher sound than four trumpets playing piano. The different, and inevitable, roughnesses of each individual player are smoothed out when all four (or six or ten) are playing.

Also also, Berlioz used different sized forces in different halls. Larger the hall, the more performers it takes to fill it with sound. (That's an oversimplification, of course.) 

And there's the matter of balance. As wind instrument technology improved, as wind players improved, as more ensembles used more wind players, as Berlioz specifically used more winds to achieve those smooth pianissimos, he found he had to bulk up the strings to achieve the balance of sound he wanted.

If you're looking for a huge, thick orchestral texture, one that stays that way consistently throughout, Berlioz is not yer man.


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## Pestouille

AllegroDM said:


> I enjoy listening to classical music and have just started music studies, to learn piano and return to clarinet study.
> 
> I've recently read in music literature that Berlioz and Wagner used large orchestras. I read Berlioz used at least 600 members, and Wagner over 100. Have these large orchestras been recreated, say, in the last 20 years?


Concerning Berlioz it has been a one time concert for his requiem. Orchestra (+- 200 musician), Choir (+- 200 chorists) and 4 Brass Orchestras (+- 30 musician per Orch.). During the concert, Berlioz took over the direction of the Orchestra and accused the conductor of having been paid by Cherubini...:devil:

I have not heard about a recent concert from Berlioz involving such gigantic Orchestras.... Mahler 8th uses several choirs sometimes. My dream would be the 8th of Bruckner with such a gigantic orchestra...:angel:


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## superhorn

Wagner's largest orchestra is for the Ring cycle ; the other operas do not use all that large an orchestra ,because most opera house pits can't fit enormous ones .
Th Ring features quadruple woodwinds ,piccolo, English horn, bass clarinet, eight French horns, four trumpets plus bass trumpet, four trombones, tuba etc. Horns 5-8 switch at times to the so-called "Wagner tuba", a brass instrument designed especially for the Ring, which looks sort of like a baritone horn or Euphonium, but which uses a horn mouthpiece . There are also no fewer than six harps required, plus ample percussion .
The famous sunken orchestra pit at Bayreuth can hold a very large orchestra, and so can the Metropolitan opera's pit, but most are much smaller .


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## slowjazz

Yes, Mahler's 8th symphony is maybe the most often performed with the largest orchestras. But also the Havergal Brian - Symphony Nº 1 "Gothic" requires a gigantic ensemble, perhaps more than mahler so is not so often performed


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## maestro267

The three largest pieces I know of are, in ascending order: Mahler's 8th Symphony, Schoenberg's Gurrelieder, and Havergal Brian's Symphony No. 1. Another piece that requires unusually large forces is William Bolcom's choral work _Songs of Innocence and of Experience_. A large orchestra includes parts for a harmonica, a 'folk' fiddle, and a rock band. The choirs include adult and children's choirs, a madrigal group, and at least 10 soloists, including 5 sopranos, a country singer and rock singer/speaker.


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