# Bruckner and the Chicago Symphony Orchestra (Set reviews)



## Granate

Last Saturday, when I was editing my video coursework for an University module, I needed to find a good Bewegt from Bruckner's Symphony No.4. Because my favourite, Celibidache EMI, was too slow, I tried using one of the best I remembered, Klemperer PO. But this recording was well conducted and with a Brass too heavy for finishing a video. If what I needed was Brass, I thought about the Chicago Symphony recordings from Solti and Barenboim. I was very surprised with the Barenboim recording (4.5/10 in my first review) and amazed by the cleanness of the brass and the control of the strings in the 1973 recording. I used that ending from the Bewegt in the video and I was very satisfied.

Then I thought that after the operas, I should check out again all Chicago recordings for Bruckner, that's to say, the Barenboim and Solti Cycles. Only them. And to my surprise. I really enjoyed them. *I realised, before publishing my Bruckner Cycle survey, that the Chicago Symphony, with their brass weight and dry strings, also can have a say in the discography.*

So in terms of a Chicago set, I find them tied, unfortunately. In my survey, Barenboim CSO has raised into the top 10 and it's almost as essential as his Berliner cycle. Solti improves a little. Also, I used the occasion to lower the marks of Jochum Dresden. Generalising, the CSO play with a lot of brass in both cycles, and the style is surely more accurate for Mahler than it is for Bruckner.* I'm relieved that I have to back down my statement that no Orchestra outside Germany or Austria could play Bruckner well.* Chicago proves a different point when theyn don't compete with the Germans. I now understand those fans who say that Bruckner is all about the brass, and while I disagree, I think I understand why it's tasteful for many people. The recordings can feel a little restrained. The two cycles offer very different views.










Bruckner
_*Symphonies 1-9*_
Chicago Symphony Orchestra
*Georg Solti
Decca (1976-1986/1996 Issue Edition)*

Solti takes advantage from polished, high-quality audio transfers and the Chicago has a superb sound that in the Barenboim set can barely achieve. It is more notable in the No.5, No.6, and No.9. But Solti's unforgiving conducting, following the score to the very end more than interpreting it, becomes a drawback sometimes, specially in No.7 and No.8. This set, like his Mahler, is unoficially OOP, with used copies sold from 36$.










Bruckner
_*Symphonies 1-9*_
Chicago Symphony Orchestra
*Daniel Barenboim
Deutsche Grammophon (1973-1981/2011 Reissue Edition)*

The Barenboim cycle is actually more Barenboim than DG though they made a better job than with the great and hissy Karajan set. The "young" Barenboim proves from 1973 that he can lead and interpret all the tempi changes that elevate Bruckner scores, notably in No.3, No.4, No.7, No.8 and No.9. The brass sound fails him sometimes, or that is what is in the recording. One of the goals of a future remastering is to fix some of the brass balances that mess during, for instance, the first bars of No.8, or the entire No.5. The dry strings have an aquired taste that once we compare with Berlin, it's embarrasing for Chicago. It's their style. This set is from 2011 at a reasonable price with ok packaging.

My advice for these sets is to buy them both for a different style (which could cost like 50$ altogether). At this moment it's not very tempting due to the prices and the packaging.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

My question for you is: what do you think about the style in which the Chicago Symphony Orchestra plays Bruckner? I had always have a better taste for the German orchestras compared to Chicago, but now I don't know. What is your position? Do you prefer strings or brass in Bruckner?


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## realdealblues

I know we disagree on many Bruckner recordings but brass and momentum are two of the biggest keys to Bruckner in my opinion. That's why Jochum's Dresden cycle is my overall favorite taken on a whole. The Dresden Brass is unique in it's timbre and lets everything ring out when they need to. Jochum also understood it takes momentum to make Bruckner really work. That's why I don't often like Celibidache in Bruckner, he so often loses the momentum he built from one movement to the next that it weakens the entire structure, and it has nothing to do with taking slow tempos. Klemperer and Bohm both could take slow tempos but they could keep building momentum from one movement to the next so that we arrive at our climax ready to hear it peak with all the glory it can muster.

As far as Chicago and Bruckner. I like some of Solti's recordings and I like some of Barenboim's recordings. I find Barenboim's Chicago recordings far superior to his Berlin remakes. His Chicago 4th is a truly great recording, just listen to the brass in the Scherzo and then tell me they don't make that recording of the Scherzo one of the most thrilling on disc.


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## Heck148

These are indeed great sets - I have the complete Barenboim/CSO set - much better sounding than the individually released #s 4, 7 and 9....I have most of the Solti is single discs - no 00,0, or 1...
Overall, Solti/CSO is my favorite Bruckner combination... remarkable playing, excellent sound, and fine conducting - Solti keeps it "hanging together" - often a problem with Bruckner symphonies, which can become disjointed, episodic, disconnected if the conductor is not diligent.

The Brass playing in each set is truly remarkable - nothing like it....extreme dynamic range - great section sound, balance precision and tone color. The Solti #8 [recorded live in Leningrad 11/90] features the hugest brass sound I've ever heard on recording. simply incredible...

As I've stated before - I greatly refer the use of piston valve trumpets for Bruckner - they give the brilliance, the blazing sound to the sonority. European orchestras favor rotary valve trumpets, which for me, simply lack the "balls", the projection, the "pop" of piston valve instruments..


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## Merl

I like strident strings and boomy brass in Bruckner but that Solti set doesn't have enough bite in the strings for me. The brass is great but Solti doesn't have the measure of the music for me. It's not a bad set but I prefer Wand or Jochum any day. I don't like about half of Solti's Mahler set, either (I hate his Mahler 1st, especially) but really like his way with Beethoven. As far as Barenboim is concerned I like a few performances in his Bruckner cycle but much prefer his Dresden Beethoven cycle. The balance of strings, brass and pulse in Bruckner is important, for me. Some fail hopelessly (Masur), some get it right sometimes (Venzago) but produce some real shockers and some get it mostly right (Asahina). Tbh, the only full cycle I rate from start to finish is Simone Young but I know that's not for everyone.


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## david johnson

CSO for me, w/pistons valves


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## SmokeyBarnable

to me the true test of a conductor/ensemble is the 1st movement of the 5th. this takes perfect drive/momentum, perfect dynamics and balance of strings/brass, to get right.

Furtwangler is too fast, but still comes close to my ideal.

I really like the live recording of Harnancourt at 



 (but the less said about the too-fast Adagio the better).

I've tried many recordings by the big guns of bruckner but can't find the perfect one. too slow (celi, ugh), inconsistent pacing, brass / trumpets much too loud in the big fanfares...

I'll have to try the Solti CSO. Love their 9th.


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## realdealblues

SmokeyBarnable said:


> to me the true test of a conductor/ensemble is the 1st movement of the 5th. this takes perfect drive/momentum, perfect dynamics and balance of strings/brass, to get right.
> 
> Furtwangler is too fast, but still comes close to my ideal.
> 
> I really like the live recording of Harnancourt at
> 
> 
> 
> (but the less said about the too-fast Adagio the better).
> 
> I've tried many recordings by the big guns of bruckner but can't find the perfect one. too slow (celi, ugh), inconsistent pacing, brass / trumpets much too loud in the big fanfares...
> 
> I'll have to try the Solti CSO. Love their 9th.


My favorite Bruckner 5th's:

Sawallisch/Bavarian State Orchestra
Gielen/SWF Symphony Orchestra
Skrowaczewski/Saarbrücken Radio Symphony Orchestra
Jochum/Staatskapelle Dresden
Abbado/Vienna Philharmonic


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## SmokeyBarnable

thank you for the recommendations.


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## mbhaub

I have to say that I like Solti's way with Bruckner. For too long, conductors took Bruckner as some kind of quasi-religious experience. They slowed it way down and made more out of than the composer intended. Bruckner lost momentum and excitement. Bruckner is closer to Dvorak than people realize. It should move! Solti doesn't wallow like to many conductors do. Not that Bruckner is without profound and deeply felt moments; it has this galore. I have too much Bruckner owning sets from Solti, Barenboim, Wand, Karajan, Jochum, Maazel, Haitink, Gielen, and Young. They all their pluses and minuses, but I always come back to Chicago for sheer brilliance of the playing and that big, brass band.


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## Heck148

mbhaub said:


> I have to say that I like Solti's way with Bruckner. For too long, conductors took Bruckner as some kind of quasi-religious experience. They slowed it way down and made more out of than the composer intended. Bruckner lost momentum and excitement.


I agree, esp among the Teutonic conductors. It seems they are always trying to hit us over the head with how "profound" Bruckner's music is, same with Wagner. for me, it just gets ponderous, logy, and disjointed...
I like the non-Teutonic conductors for Bruckner and Wagner [Walter excepted]...



> but I always come back to Chicago for sheer brilliance of the playing and that big, brass band.


Nothing like it!! what a glorious sound!!:tiphat:


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## Becca

If there is anything that turns me off in Bruckner, it is that "big brass band" overwhelming everything else ... and yes, I have been in Chicago's Symphony Hall when the CSO brass have let loose in Bruckner. My personal experience with Giulini and the LA Philharmonic in Bruckner is much closer to what I see his music as needing.


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## mbhaub

The best Bruckner 4th I ever heard happened to be in LA with Kurt Sanderling guest conducting. Brilliant. I regret that I never got to hear Giulini in Bruckner with LA. Some Mahler and Beethoven, no Bruckner.


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## Granate

Between my two Wagner challenges, Stereo and Mono, I'm reviewing again a bunch of Bruckner sets that did not satisfy me the most in the first two challenges. I call them the "middle of the road".

I wanted to be able to review the new *Russell Davies Brucker cycle* that has been assembled by Sony from the Arte Nova recordings. But Spotify has not made it available in Spain yet. I am afraid that it will not be reviewed. Apart from the other stereo ones, I'm listening to the *Hans Rosbaud historical release.*

This is the list I'm reviewing. I'm not writing on the CL Thread because it takes too muh time for me. The best news, after Symphony No.1, is that I'm having much better feelings about these sets that were drowned in the first challenges by the other competitors. I have changed many marks. Also, I'm finally listening to Ivor Bolton in the proper context, and all the tracklists, as from the second challenge, are ordered by version, not by sound or reputation.

Daniel Barenboim, Staatskapelle Berlin
Ivor Bolton, Mozarteumorchester Salzburg
Riccardo Chailly, Concertgebouworkest Amsterdam & Rundfunk-Symphonieorchester Berlin
Bernard Haitink, Concertgebouworkest Amsterdam
Eugen Jochum, Staatskapelle Dresden
Lorin Maazel, Symphonieorchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks
Stanisław Skrowaczewski, Rundfunk-Sinfonieorchester Saarbrücken
Günter Wand, Kölner Rundfunk-Sinfonie-Orchester


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## Garypaulsmith

Solti’s Bruckner 5th is exceptional. No where else is the counterpoint so clear and exciting. I own every recording of this work and always find my way back to this performance.


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## Rogerx

Garypaulsmith said:


> Solti's Bruckner 5th is exceptional. No where else is the counterpoint so clear and exciting. I own every recording of this work and always find my way back to this performance.


Good one you, great entry en welcome.


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## CnC Bartok

Garypaulsmith said:


> Solti's Bruckner 5th is exceptional. No where else is the counterpoint so clear and exciting. I own every recording of this work and always find my way back to this performance.


Every recording? That's a pretty impressive claim! If you are that completist, though, you might find one or two - more obscure - Bruckner Fifths here, free to download:

https://www.abruckner.com/downloads/downloadofthemonth/

I am very happy with the Solti cycle - it's my most recent Bruckner set, and I found I didn't run out of steam listening to all ten one after the other without overdosing. I would characterise it as "no-nonsense" Bruckner, and for my cloth ears it is beautifully played and recorded without exception. I do have preferred cycles - Jochum in Dresden, and the stunning Schaller performances - but no complete set is perfect, and each symphony has "better" performances elsewhere probably.


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## 89Koechel

Nice comments, by all. ... Well, for what it's worth, and this is NOT about the Bruckner of the Chicago Symphony, but still noteworthy. The Furtwangler Society (in France), thru the Furtwangler Society, in Japan ... has released a composite of WF, in Bruckner's 4th Symphony, containing some live recordings, and a studio type. It's truly exceptional, in it's download, and I hope to compare it to others, even of the Chicago Symphony, and/or other conductors and/or Orchestras, in the 4th. Thanks.


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## Subutai

I think it's the 1st set that made you fall in love with Bruckner's soundscape. The rest is just noise. For me it was Stanislav Skrowaczewski with the Saarbrucken RSO.
Because of him for that reason I wanted to explore more. And more. Then some more. Three I would possibly nominate as bringing something very different to Bruckner would be Karajan/BPO (one of the finest things he ever did), Wand/CRSO (A true Brucknerian above all else), Celibidache/MP (go there if you dare). 
The rest (for me at least) is just noise.


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## mparta

I'm working my way through the Solti/CSO set and I like it, very pleased with the shape, tempo, timbre, especially the sound of the orchestra, which solves a lot of Brucknerian "problems", since it can be difficult for brass sections. Not so for the CSO, of course. Gorgeous playing, So far through the Nulte, 5 and 8, maybe 4 tonight.

I don't know how anyone listens through the entire list of these pieces, they aren't pop songs, it takes some concentration and time for me to digest a performance. 

I think i probably have the complete DG von Karajan, have almost a complete Wand (I think not the early symphonies) and the DG Jochum/BPO/BRSO set, the Jochum brothers on Tahra (fabulous 4th from Eugen), multiple incarnations of Furtwaengler performances that I've never been able to appreciate, and he's a musician that I hold in high esteem. I do think Bruckner is a composer who demands multiple performances to untangle the intent.
I've said it before, I cannot understand tolerating what Celibidache does in Munich. The orchestra is obviously overparted for this music at those tempos, I am stressed out for them listening to those recordings. I find it quite bizarre and wonder whether there's not some slow = profound = I'm one with the Buddha thing here. That Buddha needs to get up and shake off some fig leaves.


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