# Does anyone know of a copy of Bach's Well tempered clavier that uses original tuning?



## Schoenberg

By original tuning I mean Bach's "Well tempered" tuning.


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## Josquin13

If by "copy" you mean a recording, yes: The harpsichordist Peter Watchorn was the first to record Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier according to Bradley Lehman's theory about Bach's original 'well-tempered' tuning. He plays a pedal harpsichord (as Bach owned pedal harpsichords). However, I don't know if anyone else has done so since Watchorn.

https://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Woh...548752071&sr=1-1&keywords=peter+watchorn+bach
https://www.amazon.com/Johann-Sebas...548752071&sr=1-5&keywords=peter+watchorn+bach

Here are some reviews:

http://www.musicaomnia.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/mo0202-0208.pdf
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2006/Dec06/Bach_Watchorn_MO0201.htm
http://www.musicaomnia.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/mo0202-review-BBC-Tim.Parry-May.2011.pdf

and a link to Bradley Lehman's website:

http://www.larips.com/


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## DarkAngel

^^^^ I definitely enjoy Watchorn Book I WTC and love the rich sound of pedal harpsichord, Book II is taken at a broader tempo and stretches out to 3CD set which I find less appealing vs Book I, also notice Watchorn ends each set of 24 with a reprise of opening prelude (ala Goldberg Variations) making the case for the work to be viewed as a unified whole vs a collection of individual studies


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## Mandryka

Schoenberg said:


> By original tuning I mean Bach's "Well tempered" tuning.


No, there isn't one as far as I know. All we know is that however Bach liked to tune his keyboard, it probably wasn't equal temperament.


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## Mandryka

Josquin13 said:


> If by "copy" you mean a recording, yes: The harpsichordist Peter Watchorn was the first to record Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier according to Bradley Lehman's theory about Bach's original 'well-tempered' tuning. He plays a pedal harpsichord (as Bach owned pedal harpsichords). However, I don't know if anyone else has done so since Watchorn.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Woh...548752071&sr=1-1&keywords=peter+watchorn+bach
> https://www.amazon.com/Johann-Sebas...548752071&sr=1-5&keywords=peter+watchorn+bach
> 
> Here are some reviews:
> 
> http://www.musicaomnia.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/mo0202-0208.pdf
> http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2006/Dec06/Bach_Watchorn_MO0201.htm
> http://www.musicaomnia.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/mo0202-review-BBC-Tim.Parry-May.2011.pdf
> 
> and a link to Bradley Lehman's website:
> 
> http://www.larips.com/


As you know, Lehman tuning is an idea which is not universally accepted by any means.


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## Josquin13

Mandryka writes, "As you know, Lehman tuning is an idea which is not universally accepted by any means."

Yes, I know that Lehman's tuning has been contested in certain quarters. But I'm not aware of any alternative idea out there about how Bach tuned his harpsichord? A scholar that says no, Lehman is wrong and here's why.

I find Watchorn's WTC fascinating, especially Book 1. The tonal palette seems richer to me, and at times conveys darker emotions via Lehman's tuning; although I suppose it could also have something to do with the fuller sound of the pedal harpsichord that Watchorn uses:


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## Mandryka

Well, there were loads and loads of different types of tuning systems around, all well documented. 
Loads of modified mean tone tuning all of which would allow each key to have a character of its own, and wouldn’t cause wolfs in the harpsichord music. In fact Lehman tuning is rather esoterically documented, a squiggle on the frontispiece of WTC1, which may or may not be code.


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## Josquin13

Mandryka writes, "In fact Lehman tuning is rather esoterically documented, a squiggle on the frontispiece of WTC1, which may or may not be code."

Yes, but the foundation of Lehman's theory is that he claims (1) "Bach composed a book of music that says directly it is about a proper way to tune keyboard instruments." The esoteric squiggly diagram on the title page of the WTC Book 1 is, for Lehman, only "additional evidence" that confirms his theory, & not the basis for it. So it's more than that. Although to my mind, it is such an odd diagram that it screams out as having been deliberately drawn that way, for a specific purpose, and not "haphazard or fanciful"--as Lehman points out. Plus, I don't think it would have been out of character for Bach to additionally & cleverly encode the proper tuning in this front page diagram, as he was influenced by the Renaissance, & Renaissance thinking--and it wouldn't have been at all out of character for a Renaissance mind to do so. Therefore, I suspect Lehman is on to something, but then I'm very far from an expert in these matters.

Here's what Lehman writes,

"To fit the evidence of all these required 25 notes and scales, Bach's spiraling line-drawing in its context is to be taken as additional evidence: it provides a direct practical diagram for tuning keyboards by ear, solving the problem. It is purposefully irregular, not haphazard or fanciful. It shows a quick and effective hands-on method of tuning an instrument to play this book, giving a tastefully unequal balance, installed with no calculations. It shows how to control the sound."


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## KenOC

Josquin13 said:


> Yes, but the foundation of Lehman's theory is that he claims (1) "Bach composed a book of music that says directly it is about a proper way to tune keyboard instruments." The esoteric squiggly diagram on the title page of the WTC Book 1 is, for Lehman, only "additional evidence" that confirms his theory, & not the basis for it...


I'm confused (as often happens). If those squiggles are only "additional evidence" for a specific way of tuning, what's the primary evidence for that specific tuning?


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## Mandryka

One question I have is very basic: the concept “well tempered”, “wohltemperierte”, is that a technical term which was current in the C 18, or is it something unique to WTC?


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## tortkis

Andreas Werckmeister used "wohl zu temperiren" or "wol temperirt" on the title pages of his books published around the late 17th century.

_"one can tune a keyboard instrument [...] in a well tempered manner, in order that according to the practice of today, all keys can be accepted in a pleasing and tolerable harmony"_ (Musical Temperament, 1691)

Buxtehude advocated Werckmeister's tunings, and Walther, J.S. Bach's close friend, wrote a detailed entry for Werckmeister in his music dictionary, the Musicalisches Lexicon. It seems that the concept "well tempered" was known/used by musicians around that time, and probably J.S. Bach had this temperament in his mind.


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## tortkis

Here is a short article about Werckmeister III and Bach's W.T.C. by Kyle Gann.
https://www.kylegann.com/histune.html#hist3

About the color of each key in the unequal temperament, he wrote _"In keys with poor consonances, like F# major, Bach will pass quickly by the major third, and the slight touches of dissonance give the prelude a bright, sparkly air. In more consonant keys, as in the C major prelude, the tonality is much more mellow, and Bach can afford to dwell on the tonic triad."_

He listed Robert Levin's recording of WTC (Hanssler 116) in Werckmeister tuning. Levin used harpsichord, organ, clavichord and fortepiano.

Rebecca Pechefsky recorded Prelude and Fugue in D minor, E flat major and F major on harpsichord in the Werckmeister III tuning. (PITCH)


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## Josquin13

I'm out of my league here, but, Lehman writes that Werckmeister III isn't a harpsichord tuning, but instead for an organ:

"Werckmeister III is not a harpsichord temperament at all, and its musical effects are rough both melodically and harmonically. Rather, it is a money-saving organ conversion temperament from various regular (meantone) schemes, as I have explained in part 2 of the Early Music article."

Here's how to get a PDF of Lehman's Early Music article, where I gather he establishes his 'primary' theory:

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bpl/larips/outline.html#rosetta

So, if Robert Levin uses Werckmeister III tuning on a harpsichord, organ, clavichord and fortepiano, then he must think it is historically justified and disagree with Lehman. Yet, I can't help but ask the following question--if Werckmeister tuning were so easily connectable to Bach's harpsichord tuning and the Well-Tempered Clavier, via convincing historical evidences, wouldn't we have seen a lot more harpsichordists making recordings of the WTC using this tuning, than just Robert Levin and Rebecca Pechefsky? & could Levin possibly only use it for the WTC parts that he plays on an organ?


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## Mandryka

This paper by Colin Booth is an interesting summary of the state of knowledge now.

https://www.colinbooth.co.uk/bach-n-tuning.pdf

Disappointing to read this, which kind of puts me off exploring the WTC he's got in progress



> Nevertheless, when using a Rousseau tuning [which is close to meantone] in the music of the 48, only two keys present chords of something like an extreme nature: E flat and A flat major. Even these are perfectly playable, and all other keys work well.
> 
> Despite this, it is hard for us today to accept a tuning system close to that of Rousseau as that intended by Bach, when he will have been aware of alternatives. Rousseau's system was still closely related to meantone; he surely did not envisage much use of accidental keys as tonics. It may be, of course, that modern ears (including my own), brought up in a world of equal temperament, remain unconsciously biased against extreme tunings. Perhaps Bach really did specify this system - because it brought to the ears of those listening in 1722, the maximum variety of timbre which the music could tolerate - or exploit.


Can someone tell me what sort of temperament Blandine Verlet used? She was interested in meantone I think. It would be intersting to get a list of recordings which use I modified meantone, if any. Egarr I think used Lehman, I'm not sure.


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## tortkis

Josquin13 said:


> I'm out of my league here, but, Lehman writes that Werckmeister III isn't a harpsichord tuning, but instead for an organ:
> 
> "Werckmeister III is not a harpsichord temperament at all, and its musical effects are rough both melodically and harmonically. Rather, it is a money-saving organ conversion temperament from various regular (meantone) schemes, as I have explained in part 2 of the Early Music article."
> 
> Here's how to get a PDF of Lehman's Early Music article, where I gather he establishes his 'primary' theory:
> 
> http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bpl/larips/outline.html#rosetta


Werckmeister's tuning treatises are mainly about organ, but I didn't know that the tuning has instrument-specific problem. Is it about harpsichord's characteristic overtones (which conflict in a certain tuning)? I will check the pdf, thank you.



> So, if Robert Levin uses Werckmeister III tuning on a harpsichord, organ, clavichord and fortepiano, then he must think it is historically justified and disagree with Lehman. Yet, I can't help but ask the following question--if Werckmeister tuning were so easily connectable to Bach's harpsichord tuning and the Well-Tempered Clavier, via convincing historical evidences, wouldn't we have seen a lot more harpsichordists making recordings of the WTC using this tuning, than just Robert Levin and Rebecca Pechefsky? & could Levin possibly only use it for the WTC parts that he plays on an organ?


I only have digital album of Levin's recording and don't have liner notes which may mention the tuning he used. In general, what tunings do HIP keyboard performers use for J.S. Bach's works? Is Lehman's tuning most popular? Each chooses whatever s/he thinks appropriate? Mostly equal temperament (on period instrument)?


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## Josquin13

Of the three tunings--Bach/Lehman, Equal Temperament, & Werckmeister III, here demonstrated via Bach's Prelude in C major from Book 1, to my ears, Equal Temperament is inferior, as it emphasizes the unattractive tinniness of the harpsichord's upper registers more than the other two. I can't imagine that Bach would have preferred that, but unfortunately, I'm so used to hearing the WTC played in equal temperament that it seems more or less normal or familiar, & therefore, it's difficult for me to dislike:






Thanks for the interesting article by Colin Booth. It seems the only scholarly consensus is that "well-tempered" meant unequal.

This might accord to the Greek word, symmetria, which likewise didn't mean as we (mis)understand it today--two equal parts, but rather it meant unequal (likely in relation to the golden ratio, or golden spirals, etc.= 1 to 1.618, or some idea of beauty or divine perfection along those lines.)

"In general, what tunings do HIP keyboard performers use for J.S. Bach's works?"

I wish I could answer your question. It would be interesting to see a long list of WTC recordings that designates the tuning systems used for each.


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## Mandryka

I listened to some of Verlet’s and it is indeed harmonically very scrunchy, in 873 for example. I bet it’s some really extreme meantone.


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## Larkenfield

I've heard the Peter Watchorn performances on his superb keyboard instrument (yes, such great ones _do_ exist) and what better recordings to show off the marvelous benefits and pure intervals of the well-tuned scales that he's using. I believe that one can easily hear the openness and purity of the consonant tuning of the sound. So refreshing to the ears, and by comparison, it reveals the limitations and subtle tuning compromises of the equal-tempered scale that can cause listener fatigue.

But I continue to question whether Bach _never_ used the equal-tempered scale when performing the WTC, _especially_ in a work such as this, because it would never require tuning the instrument to specific keys to go through all 24 major and minor scales that go up to a remote key by a half-step each time. To have to tune the instrument at different times would seem to defeat the purpose of being able to conveniently go through every key without having to retune the instrument. Nevertheless, it's possible to easily retune the instrument between recording takes to get the marvelous benefits of the pure intervals that Watchorn uses. I consider it worth hearing his performances just for the benefits of his tunings alone and I rather like his measured clarity of pacing and interpretation.

The advantage of using the well-tuned temperament he's using is that there are not the same "beats" in the intervals of his scale-there are actually no "beats" in the pure intervals-that are always present in the tuning of the equal-temperament. The difference is actually huge if one becomes familiar with the purity of the well-tuned scale, and I consider his recordings as a perfect example.


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## Mandryka

Larkenfield said:


> But I continue to question whether Bach _never_ used the equal-tempered scale when performing the WTC, _especially_ in a work such as this, because it would never require tuning the instrument to specific keys to go through all 24 major and minor scales that go up to a remote key by a half-step each time.


What you're implying here is false. I heard all WTC2 played by Kenneth Weiss on an unequally tuned harpsichord and the only tuning done was at the start and in the interval. I've been to loads of concerts with unequal tuning and the problem you're alluding to just doesn't exist.

Arrête de chercher midi à quatorze heures.


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