# How low does Classical music go?



## Fed (8 mo ago)

I am looking for information that would help me with purchasing a subwoofer for playing classical music.

I have been listening to 90% classical music for a couple of years now. I finally got myself a nice system (Chord Mscaller with TT2) to listen to classical music by headphones, which I really love. I then decided to get high efficiency single driver speakers to use with my system - Omega tower alnico speakers with a frequency range of 40-20kHz. They sound fantastic, but there is a sudden low frequency drop off. I cannot hear the lowest notes at times with classical music, and the ‘heavy feeling‘ of some music is lost. I added an old subwoofer to the system, and it helped a lot, although it gets a bit muddy. I figure a good sub would help much better. 

Louis Chochos, the owner and maker of speakers at Omega, makes a sub, and it apparently has great synergy with his speakers, as one would expect. It is specifically made for music, not movies. It is fast and musical. The problem is that the frequency range is 28-160Hz (DeepHemp 8 Subwoofer), and so I fear that the lowest notes may still be missed. Other subs that are powered, musical, and fast seem to have a low frequency of 20Hz. One even goes down to 18Hz.

I figure that going with the Omega sub would be best, except for the 28Hz cut off. Do you happen to know if that would be sufficient for listening to classical music, or would another sub be more suitable. Is the latter, any suggestions?

Thanks in advance,

Fed


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

For what it's worth, the lowest note on a double bass is around 41 Hz. The contrabassoon gets down to around 32 Hz. A huge 16 ft stopped pipe organ goes down to around 16 Hz - below audibility but you sure can feel it. If you ever hear a fine orchestra in a good hall you will be struck how light the bass is compared to the way a lot of us listen at home. I use two 12 inch subs that really pack a wallop in organ music and especially on bass drum transients. A sub that goes to 28 would be excellent, really.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

There are a few newer (post-2010) orchestral recordings which get down in the 30Hz territory, things like Aaron Copland's "Fanfare for the Common Man" with drums as big as a car. Last year I bought myself an REL powered (150w) subwoofer, flat to 15Hz, and have been discovering all sorts of material that exercises it. You FEEL rather than hear these notes. It literally rattles the pictures on my wall, and my throw rug in the music room has to be adjusted every couple of days.

What I did not expect was how much more transparent it made my main speakers, now that they're crossed over at about 60Hz.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Fed said:


> I am looking for information that would help me with purchasing a subwoofer for playing classical music.
> 
> I have been listening to 90% classical music for a couple of years now. I finally got myself a nice system (Chord Mscaller with TT2) to listen to classical music by headphones, which I really love. I then decided to get high efficiency single driver speakers to use with my system - Omega tower alnico speakers with a frequency range of 40-20kHz. They sound fantastic, but there is a sudden low frequency drop off. I cannot hear the lowest notes at times with classical music, and the ‘heavy feeling‘ of some music is lost. I added an old subwoofer to the system, and it helped a lot, although it gets a bit muddy. I figure a good sub would help much better.
> 
> ...


Single driver point source speakers can be wonderful for classical music -- think classic Tannoys.

The "heavy feeling" isn't there because these speakers only have a 6 inch driver, so they can't move much air. The lack of pressure is probably the problem, rather than volume dropping off for the bass frequencies -- the speakers may be well balanced. If you can get a frequency response curve at the listening position that would be helpful.

My first suggestion to you is that you change your listening position so that you're closer to the speakers -- that could sort things out perfectly. And they are ported, so make sure that they are a good distance from the wall behind them. Try the speaker in different positions from the rear and side walls, and try different listening positions - start by placing yourself so that you form an equilateral triangle with the speakers, with your ears at the same level as the driver. Make sure that there's plenty of absorptive material in the room -- books, rugs, curtains. These things can make a huge difference.

If you do want to explore a sub, you should certainly try the Omega one first because the major problems with using subs are frequency loss at the crossover, and timing the subwoofer output so that it sounds seamless rather than splashy -- presumably the guys at Omega have thought about this and dealt with it. My own feeling is that the sub route shouldn't be even thought about unless you listen to organ music.

But at the end of the day, the speakers may be too small for your tastes and your requirement vis-a-vis room and seating. Sorry.


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

mbhaub said:


> A huge 16 ft stopped pipe organ goes down to around 16 Hz - below audibility but you sure can feel it.


I'm going to be pedantic and say a 16 foot stop "only" goes down to 32 Hz, you need a 32 foot stop to reach the 16 Hz (a more space-economical combination stop of 16 and 10 2/3 will do the trick as well).
Audible only for whales and elephants, but sure you can feel the vibrations.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

RobertJTh said:


> I'm going to be pedantic and say a 16 foot stop "only" goes down to 32 Hz, you need a 32 foot stop to reach the 16 Hz (a more space-economical combination stop of 16 and 10 2/3 will do the trick as well).
> Audible only for whales and elephants, but sure you can feel the vibrations.


There are exactly TWO organs in the world that have 64-foot stops, with an 8Hz fundamental. One is the Midmer-Losh organ at the Atlantic City Convention Center. The other is the Pogson organ in the Sydney Opera Hall.








What's the longest organ pipe in the world? - Mixtuur


What’s the longest organ pipe in the world? The largest organ pipe is 64 feet or 19,5 meters. There are two instruments that have a full-length 64’stop. The first one is the Midmer-Losh organ at the Atlantic City Convention Center. The second one is the Pogson organ in the Organ Sydney Town...



www.mixtuur.com





The John Wanamaker organ in Philadelphia was for years the largest on the planet.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

Besides the low frequencies you are missing, the other thing good subs will add to your system, is, improving the soundstage size and openness, 

There is a lot of ambient information in those very low frequencies, especially in classical recordings recorded in concert halls. This is noticeable even when there isn't a lot of audible low frequencies in the music itself.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

You people always make me jealous for not having a proper listening room...


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

mbhaub said:


> For what it's worth, the lowest note on a double bass is around 41 Hz. The contrabassoon gets down to around 32 Hz. A huge 16 ft stopped pipe organ goes down to around 16 Hz - below audibility but you sure can feel it. If you ever hear a fine orchestra in a good hall you will be struck how light the bass is compared to the way a lot of us listen at home. I use two 12 inch subs that really pack a wallop in organ music and especially on bass drum transients. A sub that goes to 28 would be excellent, really.


There's a standard double bass, and one with a C-extension lengthening and lowering the E string. Or the 5 string bass they prefer in Europe.


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## Fed (8 mo ago)

Mandryka said:


> If you can get a frequency response curve at the listening position that would be helpful.


Would you let me know how I would go about doing that? Sounds like a good idea.



Mandryka said:


> My first suggestion to you is that you change your listening position so that you're closer to the speakers -- that could sort things out perfectly.


I already tried all sorts of positioning. My main listening is in the bedroom, and positioning is limited. Thankfully, it works out well. They really do sound great, they just drop off at the low end in certain recordings. But transparency is fantastic, and I get great imaging. 



Mandryka said:


> My own feeling is that the sub route shouldn't be even thought about unless you listen to organ music.


Even though my speakers only go to 40Hz? True, I can hear all the low notes, but the cheap sub I have does fill the low notes out nicely.

I should also mention that my cheap sub has a hum that is a bit annoying when no music is being played. Do all powered subs have a hum of some sort?


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

Most recordings are cut for the low frequencies. This one is not:

*César Franck: Organ Works*

Jean Guillou
van-den-Heuvel-organ in St. Eustache, Paris










If you can get the original release at Dorian Records, go for it.

For instance, Choral No. 1 E major ends with E in the pedal at 32 ft. About 16 Hz x 5/4 = 20 Hz.

Be careful with the volume control. The recording is from the category "either you have really good speakers or you had bad ones."


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## Fed (8 mo ago)

Philidor said:


> Most recordings are cut for the low frequencies. This one is not:
> 
> *César Franck: Organ Works*
> 
> ...


That is quite low indeed. I don’t listen to organ music, however, unless it is in choral Music.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

If you do explore subwoofers let me tell you a trick I invented. Attach the sub to the system and turn off the amp to the main speakers. Play some music. There will be low frequencies coming through the sub. Ask yourself: does it sound like music, or does it sound like grunting? If the latter, don’t buy the sub.

I have a sub in a system containing electrostatics, but I couldn’t find an affordable sealed sub which sounded good. I have a pair of passive dipole subs. I bought it because I do listen to organ music - my other systems are very satisfactory for other types of music. But none of them have the presence of the electrostatics - because the electrostatics move a lot of air. That presence is to do with sound pressure, not low frequency.

Another think to explore, paradoxically, is to add supertweeters. They can make the sound more transparent and analytic sounding, and so give the illusion of better low frequency response. If you can try supertweeters on a sale or return basis, it could be an interesting experiment.

All these things are hard to integrate, and I still think you’d be mad to change the point source sound. Better to get bigger speakers!

Oh another thing, if you explore these things, my experience is that it takes some time to really see what the effect of adding a new component is. At first everything sounds new and exciting, and it’s easy to convince yourself you've made a good decision, when in fact you have made a change for the worse. You absolutely cannot decide these things on the basis of a shop demo, or a short home demo. You need at least a week of a lot of listening.


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

Philidor said:


> Most recordings are cut for the low frequencies. This one is not:
> 
> *César Franck: Organ Works*
> 
> ...


It's (still?) available as a cheap Brilliant Classics twofer - but no matter how great the recording is, Guillou would be my last choice in Franck.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

RobertJTh said:


> I'm going to be pedantic and say a 16 foot stop "only" goes down to 32 Hz, you need a 32 foot stop to reach the 16 Hz (a more space-economical combination stop of 16 and 10 2/3 will do the trick as well).
> Audible only for whales and elephants, but sure you can feel the vibrations.


Stopped, open, tapered -- won't be the first time I've gotten it all twisted.
The pipe length is also affected by the kind of pipe: open, stopped, or tapered. In the lowest note of a 32' open pipe, the pipe really is 32' long. A stopped pipe produces the same pitch as an open pipe when it is half the length of an open pipe. The lowest note of a stopped 32' stop is really only 16' long.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

No offense (really!), but I think you're being a little OCD about this. Although you can achieve a good effect by wiring up a five-pound sledge to a swing arm to bang against the bottom of your listening chair rhythmically..


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Philidor said:


> Be careful with the volume control. The recording is from the category "either you have really good speakers or you had bad ones."


This is the same organ, and the same organist, as this famed pipe organ production:









I'm finding the Franck recording to be a bit wobbly in the low end however. Plenty of volume, but tubby. Artificially boosted.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Simon Moon said:


> There is a lot of ambient information in those very low frequencies, especially in classical recordings recorded in concert halls. This is noticeable even when there isn't a lot of audible low frequencies in the music itself.


Interesting side note:
I read somewhere, once, that unfiltered outdoor recordings have a sub-sonic component below human hearing, i.e. under 20Hz. Nobody is quite sure the origin of this infrasonic noise. There are no elephants, blue whales or volcanos in most locations.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> If you do explore subwoofers let me tell you a trick I invented. Attach the sub to the system and turn off the amp to the main speakers. Play some music. There will be low frequencies coming through the sub. Ask yourself: does it sound like music, or does it sound like grunting? If the latter, don’t buy the sub.


Did you patent your invention?  Listening to a subwoofer in isolation is ALWAYS going to sound somewhat "like grunting" because the frequencies are limited to under 60Hz or under 100Hz. The ear hears spatial clues and timbre variations in the overtones way above that range, so all you hear from a sub are low indistinct fundamentals. In fact, a subwoofer that sounded "musical" all by itself is probably not crossed over at a proper frequency to avoid interfering with your main speakers.



Mandryka said:


> I have a system containing electrostatics ... Another thing to explore, paradoxically, is to add supertweeters.


With electrostats this is not unreasonable. Some of the larger panels are pretty depressed in the higher frequencies.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

NoCoPilot said:


> Did you patent your invention?  Listening to a subwoofer in isolation is ALWAYS going to sound somewhat "like grunting" because the frequencies are limited to under 60Hz or under 100Hz. The ear hears spatial clues and timbre variations in the overtones way above that range, so all you hear from a sub are low indistinct fundamentals. In fact, a subwoofer that sounded "musical" all by itself is probably not crossed over at a proper frequency to avoid interfering with your main speakers.


I wasn’t suggesting that you should hear melodies through the sub!

The thing that stops a good sub from being “grunting” is that a good sub captures the partials, the overtones. A bad sub just doesn’t, like a bad pair of main speakers misses timbre, and a bad amp doesn’t resolve timbre details well. This is, of course, partly a question of the sub’s amplification - the chip amps used in sealed subs may just be poor amps!


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Fed said:


> I should also mention that my cheap sub has a hum that is a bit annoying when no music is being played. Do all powered subs have a hum of some sort?


No.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> The thing that stops a good sub from being “grunting” is that a good sub captures the partials, the overtones. A bad sub just doesn’t


"Partials and overtones" are in the higher freqs. If you can hear them, your sub isn't crossed over properly.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

NoCoPilot said:


> "Partials and overtones" are in the higher freqs. If you can hear them, your sub isn't crossed over properly.


Maybe not for electrostatics -- in that their low frequency response is quite seriously constrained (mine are Quad ESL 63)


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

NoCoPilot said:


> Did you patent your invention?  Listening to a subwoofer in isolation is ALWAYS going to sound somewhat "like grunting" because the frequencies are limited to under 60Hz or under 100Hz. The ear hears spatial clues and timbre variations in the overtones way above that range, so all you hear from a sub are low indistinct fundamentals. In fact, a subwoofer that sounded "musical" all by itself is probably not crossed over at a proper frequency to avoid interfering with your main speakers.


Subwoofer frequencies can be as high as 200Hz. Depending on how the crossover is set.


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## Fed (8 mo ago)

MarkW said:


> No offense (really!), but I think you're being a little OCD about this. Although you can achieve a good effect by wiring up a five-pound sledge to a swing arm to bang against the bottom of your listening chair rhythmically..


So you think there is no need for a subwoofer with single driver speakers when listening to classical music?


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Fed said:


> So you think there is no need for a subwoofer with single driver speakers when listening to classical music?


Honestly, only you can answer that, because of your room, your amp, your musical taste, your ears, your conception of what recorded sound at home should be like, the compromises you are prepared to make, your pocket and your judgement about return on investment. Get a sub on sale and return for at least a week and see what you think.

The issue with single driver speakers isn't about bass -- 15 inch Tannoy Monitor Golds have excellent bass. There may be a problem about high frequency though.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> The issue with single driver speakers isn't about bass -- 15 inch Tannoy Monitor Golds have excellent bass. There may be a problem about high frequency though.


Big speakers are required for low frequencies, to move a lot of air. Small speakers are required for higher frequencies, to move back & forth fast enough.

Electrostatic panels are different. They can have HUGE surface areas, but their "electrostatic suspension" limits the amount of travel, and thus the SPL they can produce in the low end.

Various exotic hybrids have been tried. Plasma drivers. Co-axial drivers. Linear actuators. Crystal tweeters. Heil drivers. Accordion cone speakers. But to my knowledge, nothing really revolutionary and successful has been introduced in at least 50 years.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

progmatist said:


> Subwoofer frequencies can be as high as 200Hz. Depending on how the crossover is set.


At 200Hz it's not a "sub" woofer anymore.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

The vast majority of classical music doesn't have much content below about 60Hz. There are plenty of exceptions, especially with organ music recorded on the world's biggest organs with tones that can reach down 16Hz, but they are exceptions. Many classical listeners could spend their entire lives and maybe only come across a handful of works with content that would genuinely require a subwoofer to properly render. 

Still, there are many advantages of having a sub, or even multiple subs. One advantage is placement freedom and its impact on frequency response. Low frequencies are omnidirectional and are affected by the dimensions of the room they're in. Given a room's dimension there will be optimal placements for a sub to help even out the frequency response that you can't do with floorstanders or bookshelf speakers. Multiple subs are even better for this, and frequency response has been shown to improve all the way up to 4 subs (though there are diminishing returns after 2). 

Another benefit is that a subwoofer takes strain off your main speakers. Most main speakers do not have large drivers that are designed to play back bass frequencies at high levels without distortion, and subwoofers help cover some of those frequencies so your mains don't have the burden of handling the deepest bass frequencies. This also allows one to buy smaller front speakers, rather than very large floorstanders, if they desire. 

This is a long answer that basically concludes with: whether you need a subwoofer for classical depends on many things: what classical you listen to, how loud you listen, the room you listen in, etc. One piece of advice I can give is to ignore subwoofers made by speaker manufacturers, because most of them are grossly overpriced for what you're getting. Look to internet-direct companies that specialize in subwoofers like Rhythmik, Hsu, or JTR. You will generally find their subs are much higher quality for the price compared to those offered by speaker companies. 

I will also help debunk a few subwoofers myths: one such myth is difference between sealed and ported. Ported has many advantages in terms of being able to reach lower given its size, but at the expense of rolling off faster in frequencies under its tuning point. The roll-off of sealed subwoofers is generally better, and if you don't requires a ton of volume at low frequencies, sealed is preferable. Most people buy subs for home theaters where high volume at low frequencies is required, and then porteds are generally better. The "speed" of subwoofers is mostly a myth, or at least it's a myth related to ported/sealed as that mostly depends on the size of the woofer and the magnet controlling it. Another myth is that bigger subwoofers are slower; that's just plain false. The bigger the woofer, the less it has to move to generate any frequency compared to smaller counterparts. Keep this maxim in mind: there's no replacement for displacement. Get the biggest subwoofer you can afford and you won't regret it. Another myth is that amplifer power matters: amp power doesn't tell you anything without knowing the sensitivity of the driver. A 100-watt subwoofer could conceivably reach higher volumes than a 1000-watt subwoofer depending on their size and sensitivity. Finally, as with all things in audio, the best way to avoid wasting money is to learn to read measurements and research on websites that show measurements. With subwoofers there's a site dedicated to that called data-bass.com.


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

NoCoPilot said:


> At 200Hz it's not a "sub" woofer anymore.


There are situations in which the 100 to 200Hz range sounds better through the sub than the mains. Mostly for those on a budget who can't afford top of the line speakers.


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## wormcycle (Oct 14, 2020)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> Another benefit is that a subwoofer takes strain off your main speakers.


That is a major benefit of subwoofer(s) but only happens with the speakers high pass filter. I mostly listen through headphones but also have relatively inexpensive two channel system with two subs.
I use simple and effective SVS SB1000, with studio monitors Adam A7X, High pass at 110 Hz.
The setup is controlled by Dirac processor in miniDSP SHD. Takes time to get it right, but the results can be astonishing. 
It is not only that the setup can reproduce low bass better, but how well it is controlled: no boom, good texture and transients.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

progmatist said:


> There are situations in which the 100 to 200Hz range sounds better through the sub than the mains. Mostly for those on a budget who can't afford top of the line speakers.


True. But adding a sub to a budget speaker system is sorta like adding a turbocharger to a 2-cycle engine.


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## Krummhorn (Feb 18, 2007)

The human ear hears in the range between 20 Hz and 20kHz. Organ pipes at the 16' length resonate at 32 Hz, and the 32' pitches at 16 Hz ... what we hear at 16 Hz are the upper harmonics ... the sound is felt more than it is heard. I've owned KLH 9510's for years and they will faithfully produce the low notes with ease and everything else between. I never have to use bass boost and keep the bass level at +/- 0 most all the time.

I do have a sub woofer as part of my smart TV setup and found the best place for it was behind the screen ... seems to help make the dialog sound better, too. I keep its setting a nominal +/- 0


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> One advantage is placement freedom and its impact on frequency response. Low frequencies are omnidirectional


Oy, not this again. This is only true for organ music. Anything with transients is demonstrably NOT omnidirectional.



Eva Yojimbo said:


> Another benefit is that a subwoofer takes strain off your main speakers. Most main speakers do not have large drivers that are designed to play back bass frequencies at high levels without distortion....
> 
> I will also help debunk a few subwoofers myths. Another myth is that bigger subwoofers are slower; that's just plain false.* The bigger the woofer, the less it has to move to generate any frequency *compared to smaller counterparts. Keep this maxim in mind: there's no replacement for displacement.


The highlighted portion of your second statement seems to contradict the first. It also completely ignores the relationship between woofer travel and SPL.

Big woofers (& subwoofers) can be slow if their magnet/coil assemblies are undersized compared to cone mass.


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## Laraine Anne Barker (8 mo ago)

Mandryka said:


> Maybe not for electrostatics -- in that their low frequency response is quite seriously constrained (mine are Quad ESL 63)


I have the original QUADs, built (and purchased) in 1976. I've always been surprised by people who say they don't have enough bass because I have a memory that they were much favoured in their heyday by organists. I'm also puzzled by those who say they aren't loud enough. What size room, I ask myself, are they trying to fill? The flaming Royal Albert Hall? I have been told mine have probably lost a little bass, but then so have I and I have actually come across one CD that had me thinking, "Ow! Too bassy!" I think (but could be wrong) the recording might have been one in which a cellist, apart from mangling Vivaldi's cello sonatas, also (stupidly in my opinion) used a double-bass in the continuo. I love my QUADs and have never had anything done to them. I still marvel at my luck in being able to own them. Shorthand-typists were notoriously underpaid or I would have had some male colleagues. I didn't get to have a male colleague until I became a Mac operator for a newspaper, by which time the colleague was nearly half my age. Such a shame! ;-)


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

The original Quads were indeed magnificent.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

NoCoPilot said:


> Oy, not this again. This is only true for organ music. Anything with transients is demonstrably NOT omnidirectional.


Copious audio science tests say differently. Place a subwoofer in a room only playing tones below 120Hz and people can not localize the origin of the sounds. 

If people can localize subs playing below 120Hz then there are possible explanations for that that don't involve breaking the laws of psychoacoustics: one such reason is that the subs have a slow-ish roll-off above 120Hz, thus actually playing tones (at a lower SPL) higher than 120Hz. This is one reason many choose the crossover for subs to be 80Hz rather than anything higher. Another reason might be nulls/peaks due to interactions with the room, which then means it's the room you're hearing, not the sub. Yet another reason might be physical cues: subs can rattle things, eg, and if you're close enough to the sub you can feel it pushing air (which is why some like to put a sub just behind their listening position). 



NoCoPilot said:


> The highlighted portion of your second statement seems to contradict the first. It also completely ignores the relationship between woofer travel and SPL.
> 
> Big woofers (& subwoofers) can be slow if their magnet/coil assemblies are undersized compared to cone mass.


I have no idea where you think the contradiction is. Yes, the actual SPL a subwoofer can manage will be a combination of the size, the x-max (which is affected by the magnet/coil), the efficiency/sensitivity of the driver, and the actual wattage powering it. The point is that it's a myth that bigger = slower as some general rule. The fact that bigger drivers have to move less to produce any given frequency gives it one major advantage over smaller drivers. If a driver has to move less there's also less strain put on the coil/magnet. I actually mentioned right above that bit you replied to that: "The "speed" of subwoofers... mostly depends on the size of the woofer and the magnet controlling it," so I agree with your last sentence.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> Copious audio science tests say differently. Place a subwoofer in a room only playing *tones* below 120Hz and people can not localize the origin of the sounds.


Key word: "tones." You're absolutely correct... limiting yourself to organ music.



Eva Yojimbo said:


> I have no idea where you think the contradiction is.


Earlier you said that small woofers can't move enough air ("Most main speakers do not have large drivers that are designed to play back bass frequencies at high levels without distortion"...) and then afterward you said "The bigger the woofer, the less it has to move to generate any frequency compared to smaller counterparts."

While it is true that a small driver has to move farther (have a longer excursion) to generate the same SPL as a larger driver, it is not true that a woofer can generate "any frequency compared to smaller counterparts" without distortion (they're krap for HF), nor is it true that one can generate significant SPL without moving. If there is ONE advance that has been made in speaker driver design in the past 50 years, I'd say it's in small drivers, with insanely long excursions, and active feedback electronics, that allow them to give a pretty convincing simulation of real bass from a small box.


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

NoCoPilot said:


> True. But adding a sub to a budget speaker system is sorta like adding a turbocharger to a 2-cycle engine.


There are varying price points and quality levels of subs as well.


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## Laraine Anne Barker (8 mo ago)

NoCoPilot said:


> The original Quads were indeed magnificent.


Mine still are as far as I'm concerned. Don't forget they were voted hi fi component of the century (20th of course).


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

NoCoPilot said:


> Key word: "tones." You're absolutely correct... limiting yourself to organ music.


I don't get your point. All music is made up of tones. If your sub isn't playing any tones above 120Hz you won't be able to localize it. 




NoCoPilot said:


> Earlier you said that small woofers can't move enough air ("Most main speakers do not have large drivers that are designed to play back bass frequencies at high levels without distortion"...) and then afterward you said "The bigger the woofer, the less it has to move to generate any frequency compared to smaller counterparts."
> 
> While it is true that a small driver has to move farther (have a longer excursion) to generate the same SPL as a larger driver, it is not true that a woofer can generate "any frequency compared to smaller counterparts" without distortion (they're krap for HF), nor is it true that one can generate significant SPL without moving. If there is ONE advance that has been made in speaker driver design in the past 50 years, I'd say it's in small drivers, with insanely long excursions, and active feedback electronics, that allow them to give a pretty convincing simulation of real bass from a small box.


Right, and I'm not seeing a contradiction between those two statements. Surely you're familiar with Hoffman's Law: you can only choose 2 of 3 between low bass extension, sensitivity, and small enclosure size. Most small woofers come in speakers with rather small-ish cabinets, which means you're sacrificing either extension or sensitivity, both of which affect how low they can play and the volume at which they can play (not to mention that such speakers will put extra strain on your amp to power those low frequencies, while most subwoofers come with their own internal amps). Subwoofers are subject to the same law, but don't have to move nearly as much to produce those low tones. Again, "there's no replacement for displacement." 

I also assumed in a thread about subwoofers and low frequencies I didn't have to specify "bass frequencies" when I said "any frequency compared to smaller counterparts." Obviously subwoofers aren't designed to play most mid-to-high frequencies, so I didn't feel I needed to specify that. Also, of course they have to move, they just don't have to move as much compared to their smaller counterparts. The advancements in more linear results with large excursions for small speakers may be true, but that still doesn't negate the benefits of bigger drivers for low bass.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

NoCoPilot said:


> If there is ONE advance that has been made in speaker driver design in the past 50 years, I'd say it's in small drivers, with insanely long excursions, and active feedback electronics, that allow them to give a pretty convincing simulation of real bass from a small box.


Can you recommend some speakers for me to try - ones I can get in the UK? Smaller the better. And ones which can be controlled by a regular mid range amp.


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