# CD-format to be abandoned by major labels by the end of 2012 (?)



## jhar26

I don't know how reliable this is, but for what it's worth.....

http://www.side-line.com/news_comments.php?id=46980_0_2_0_C


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## Rasa

I suppose it's inevitable. It's just too bad they're not working on a higher-quality audio format. Digital storage is plentyfull and cheap, so why not add better quality sound?


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## regressivetransphobe

I don't know much about business, but I don't think this computes with human nature. It's natural to want to own something important to you.

All I can see this accomplish is continuing to turn the average consumer off music in general. Outside a demographic of soccermoms who don't know any better, who the hell is paying money for a non-tangible download of some forgettable Lady Gaga song?


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## sospiro

Inevitable but nothing will replace my enjoyment of having an opera box set. I love the details & the libretto booklet to hold in my hand.

I know this can all be printed off the net but not in the same format.


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## NightHawk

It was inevitable - uses less resources, so, less expensive all the way round - and re RASA'S comment, I have read that the quality of the sound is being worked on - I think MP3's sound better than 10 years ago, or have my ears gotten worse or just used to them? I am convinced that music on my iPhone G4 is waaaaaay better than earlier incarnations.



jhar26 said:


> I don't know how reliable this is, but for what it's worth.....
> 
> http://www.side-line.com/news_comments.php?id=46980_0_2_0_C


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## TxllxT

I think that the CD will disappear soon in the 'pop'-music business, where the format (70-80 minutes of music) never was that favourable. Pop music artists make one hit song and then have to fill the rest of the CD space with music: something that always was quite an ordeal. In Classical music I guess the CD format is quite fitting to the length of most symphonies, chamber music works and so on. The big change will be noticable in the pop music scene, not so much in Classical music....
The music companies do not like CD for being so easily prone for copying, so they invented SACD etc. It is not the 'better sound', it's the money they're interested in.


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## jhar26

I'm totally clueless about all this modern stuff. I still live in the 20th century. I've never bought any downloads from itunes or anywhere else and I don't even have an ipod. I guess that eventually I'll be forced to make the change, but so far I've been a CD's only guy. 

I also wonder about what impact all this will have on how music itself will be presented to and be seen by future audiences . For classical music it probably won't make much of a difference. Any movement of a work will always be seen as part of a larger context. But for pop, rock, jazz and the rest of it?.....Chances are that consumers will more and more buy seperate songs instead of what since the mid-50's has become known as albums. As a result artists in the future may give up on the whole idea of albums. Maybe 50 years from now people who haven't grown up in the 'album era' will no longer think of "A Day in the Life" in the context of the Pepper album but just as another (albeit great) Beatles track. In other words, will the demise of the CD also mean the demise of the 'popular song' as part of a bigger whole, or will we go back to the age of the 78rpm when each song was a seperate entity???


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## kv466

This is pretty sad because I think it certainly will affect the idea of making an actual album and surely a concept album. Masterpieces from 'Dark Side of the Moon' to 'American Idiot' will be even fewer and farther between. If there's no actual cd or record, there's no need to get everyone in a studio to write and throw ideas together. This is what has spawned so much good recorded music to begin with. Sure, back in the day when you could walk into Sun Studios and record a song and suddenly it's all over the radio; thems were great times but the magic of a band working as one in the studio is a wonderful tradition that will be sad to watch fade away.


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## sospiro

jhar26 said:


> I'm totally clueless about all this modern stuff. I still live in the 20th century. I've never bought any downloads from itunes or anywhere else and I don't even have an ipod. I guess that eventually I'll be forced to make the change, but so far I've been a CD's only guy.


I'm so pleased that someone as young as Gaston still prefers the CD, I thought it was my age because I don't have an iPod as I didn't want to be tied up with iTunes. (I think that's how it works anyway). I've bought two tracks from Amazon & I recently got an album which was download only from Resonus, but I much prefer to have the discs on a shelf.



jhar26 said:


> I also wonder about what impact all this will have on how music itself will be presented to and be seen by future audiences . For classical music it probably won't make much of a difference. Any movement of a work will always be seen as part of a larger context. But for pop, rock, jazz and the rest of it?.....Chances are that consumers will more and more buy separate songs instead of what since the mid-50's has become known as albums. As a result artists in the future may give up on the whole idea of albums. Maybe 50 years from now people who haven't grown up in the 'album era' will no longer think of "A Day in the Life" in the context of the Pepper album but just as another (albeit great) Beatles track. In other words, will the demise of the CD also mean the demise of the 'popular song' as part of a bigger whole, or will we go back to the age of the 78rpm when each song was a separate entity???


That's well reasoned. A pop album is a collection of songs & maybe recitals will go the same way. I think & hope there will still be a place for classical CDs & especially the box sets.


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## Ukko

I seems to me that, if the 'majors' drop CD production, they will drop all of it, including classical. There isn't enough classical market to prop up the distribution mechanism. Maybe the question then becomes, what is the extra expense in DVD/Blu-ray player manufacture to include CD/SACD playability - for a sharply reduced market?

We can't say 'I've got my CD player, so it doesn't much matter' - because the blasted things wear out.


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## Elgarian

jhar26 said:


> I'm totally clueless about all this modern stuff. I still live in the 20th century. I've never bought any downloads from itunes or anywhere else and I don't even have an ipod. I guess that eventually I'll be forced to make the change, but so far I've been a CD's only guy.


It's a scary prospect alright. One consequence, I imagine, will be an upsurge in the secondhand CD market (and a consequent raising of secondhand CD prices due to the additional competition for them). I'm very much like you in this, Gaston. I just can't get very interested in the idea of downloaded music. Seems to me this is a good reason for buying all the CDs one can, while they're still available.

Wait a minute: is that the response they're _hoping_ to stimulate by leaking this news but not confirming it?


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## Elgarian

Hilltroll72 said:


> We can't say 'I've got my CD player, so it doesn't much matter' - because the blasted things wear out.


I suppose there'll be enough of us around, for some years, to make it worthwhile manufacturing players - just as today, it's still possible to buy turntables for vinyl records.? Do you think?


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## AmateurComposer

The music industry, years ago, stopped producing the vinyl long playing records, but there still are music lovers who cherish them, enough of them that long playing turntables are still available on the market. The same might happen with the CDs.


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## mamascarlatti

I'm like Annie, I prefer CDs, and I don't own an iPod because I hate Itunes. Itunes tracks cost NZ$1.99, and downloads from other legal sources are unavailable here in NZ, so it's really going to affect our market.

Luckly for me I have more than I can probably listen to in a life time so I'll just stick to that if CDs disappear.


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## Taneyev

Times are accelerating, and fast:
78 RPM: 1899/1946 = 47 years live
33 RPM: 1946/83 = 37 years live
CD: 1983/2012 (?) =29 years live
I suspect new sistems will be obsolet an death in just very few years.


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## Artemis

I very rarely buy CDs these days. I have more music on CD than I can cope with, and even if I did find that I was missing something there's a good chance I could acquire a copy from a friend/relative.

Most of the new classical material that I tend to acquire is what I have heard on the radio. If I don't catch it at the time it's actually played, it's easy to catch up using the BBC_ iplayer_ where it's available up to a week after the programme. I realise that this facility is only available in the UK. The sound quality of this material is obviously not as good as CD but it's good enough for me.

I would be far more worried about the demise of CDs if I was early in my early/mid music gathering days. In fact I'd probably be panicking and taking out a mortgage to buy tons more. But as I remarked on another thread, one has to be careful not to go too far in this direction because it's possible to finish up with cellar-loads of CDs that never get played after maybe one or two initial runs through. I recall a few years ago getting the "Haydn bug" big time, buying virtually everything he ever wrote. At the time it all sound fantastic, but the novelty soon wore off as I found some other "great" who interested me more. Now, apart from a few odd bits of Haydn that I may occasionally listen to, it's all collecting dust. The same sort of thing has happened several times over with others.

I have used the download facilities from Amazon and the like. They're fine but you do need a decent way of organising the material on your computer. You can of course "burn" a CD using this downloaded material, and I have sometimes done that too.


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## Polyphemus

My friends it simply means that we are to be royally screwed by the record industry, again, From LP to cassette to CD and each time the prices increase. The sooner the pirates put these robber barons out of business the better. Like Aretemis above I have more than enough music to see out my allotted span so good luck with it.
Incidentally my best ever listening experience was when I was in proud possession of a Reel to Reel recorder, problem with that was that there was a rather poor availability of commercially recorded material.


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## violadude

All I have to say to this is places like Itunes better start allowing for multiple downloads after you purchase a piece in case your computer crashes...that's the only reason I still buy CD's in the first place so that I don't have to worry about that.


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## jhar26

Polyphemus said:


> My friends it simply means that we are to be royally screwed by the record industry, again, From LP to cassette to CD and each time the prices increase.


True. On the other hand, we can now thanks to things like Spotify listen to literally millions of recordings for free.


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## science

Interesting news and stuff to think about. 

Always, always backup digital music. I guess that pretty soon it'll all be stored in the cloud and that should be ok... but meanwhile, backup.


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## science

Polyphemus said:


> My friends it simply means that we are to be royally screwed by the record industry, again, From LP to cassette to CD and each time the prices increase. The sooner the pirates put these robber barons out of business the better. Like Aretemis above I have more than enough music to see out my allotted span so good luck with it.
> Incidentally my best ever listening experience was when I was in proud possession of a Reel to Reel recorder, problem with that was that there was a rather poor availability of commercially recorded material.


I'm not old enough to know, but I thought that LPs were more expensive than CDs.


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## violadude

science said:


> Interesting news and stuff to think about.
> 
> Always, always backup digital music. I guess that pretty soon it'll all be stored in the cloud and that should be ok... but meanwhile, backup.


Yes, but it takes so much time to download everything you already downloaded on an empty CD >.< Not to mention having to label all of them so you don't end up with thousands of white CDs and you don't know what is what.


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## jhar26

science said:


> I'm not old enough to know, but I thought that LPs were more expensive than CDs.


No - when cd's came on the market they cost almost twice as much as lp's did.


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## elgar's ghost

If this happens I suppose it also means a whole bunch of job losses within the manufacturing side of the industry?


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## science

jhar26 said:


> No - when cd's came on the market they cost almost twice as much as lp's did.


I didn't know that. Were they more expensive than now?


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## Ukko

science said:


> I didn't know that. Were they more expensive than now?


Including inflation, very much so. And there were no 'medium priced' offerings. Manufacturing economies have offset inflation pretty well.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

jhar26 said:


> I don't know how reliable this is, but for what it's worth.....
> 
> http://www.side-line.com/news_comments.php?id=46980_0_2_0_C


We read stuff like that every now and then, so far nothing has really happened. I also read that the end of 2012 would be the "end of the world" according to some South American Mayan / Azetec / whatever ancient calender.

Even if they stop manufacturing recorded music via CDs today, so what? It makes me super-glad to have original albums in CD format that I have been collecting. As for new music purchases, we would therefore switch to downloads. I have some downloads, all of which I burn onto CD anyway. I have only a few downloaded & burnt CDs. It will be ashame when we loose the sleeve notes and rely too much on the computer to store electronic music and when the computer fails, the collection disappears - just like TC's corrupted database a few days ago. So, downloads still need "risk management" if your music collection is here to stay.

But if there is a cheaper and better quality sound that can replace CDs soon, I'm up for it. Progressive change for the music is good, but not necessarily so when done for the pockets of record labels.


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## deeslexia

Thank goodness for my vinyl Opera sets !
I never really got into cd in a big way , probably 'cos I live in the 60s LOL .


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## TrazomGangflow

That is most likely true and disappointing. When purchasing quality music I like to have something tangible to show for it.


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## Taneyev

For a couple of years I'm not buying CD. What I do is to send mi favorites page on YouTube by mail to a friend, and he made me CDs of all I send to him. To date I've more than 50, with extremely rare works/composers/versions that are impossible to find anywhere else. I hope that will continue for a long time.


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## mamascarlatti

violadude said:


> Yes, but it takes so much time to download everything you already downloaded on an empty CD >.< Not to mention having to label all of them so you don't end up with thousands of white CDs and you don't know what is what.


Why would you use CDs? I have an external hard drive - well, two that I rotate actually - and periodically I just dump my music library on it. It takes about an hour to transfer my 70G's worth.


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## Jeremy Marchant

A number of points

Firstly, it is interesting that Linn, who stopped making CD players a little while ago now, still market their Sondek LP turntable, arms and cartridges - and they wouldn't do this if there weren't a market.

Secondly, there already is a better quality digital format than CD. I was in the Linn factory a couple of years ago and they played me the same extract from their excellent recording of _Messiah _in MP3, CD, and "studio master" formats. The superiority of the last was incontestable (albeit all were played through their top of the range equipment). It's quite clear that the CD format was always pig's ear - a con even, to the extent that it was marketed as "perfect" sound - as are CD players (and I personally own a near top Naim player).

Thirdly, I too like the physical product but, let's face it, a lot of the documentation accompanying CDs is poor to barely acceptable. I suspect downloading will be a temporary phase. The obvious (to me) best situation is a cloud computing solution. When there is a Spotify for classical music, with good accompanying material and a thought through data structure (unlike Spotify's which is patronisingly inapproapriate for classical music) I think I will be happy to trade a mediocre booklet for the availability of anything I want to listen to (in studio master format of course). It's only like listening to the radio.

Fourthly, surely the "majors" stopped being major years ago. In the classical world, there is a myriad labels, from Hyperion to NMC, from Chandos to Testament, who are dominating the releases listings, month after month. For classical music, what the majors do is irrelevant.


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## pollux

Jeremy Marchant said:


> Fourthly, surely the "majors" stopped being major years ago. In the classical world, there is a myriad labels, from Hyperion to NMC, from Chandos to Testament, who are dominating the releases listings, month after month. For classical music, what the majors do is irrelevant.


Completely agree with that. And I've read many interviews with independent label chiefs who agree in saying that they won't be leaving the CD format, as they think there will be enough market for it in the next years. Nonetheless, if that occurs the transition would be to higher sound-quality, physical products (not SACD I guess, which has had very little success) and not to downloadable digital formats.


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## Guest

On 'The Sixteen' web site you have the option of d/l in mp3 format or FLAC [a lossless format that is a must if you want quality reproduction] I have posted before that a new method using Holographic Crystal was being researched for music storage I don't know if this has proved successful but from memory you could store vast amounts of detail in a very small space which would make the CD obsolete. 
The d/l of p2p [torrents] music also uses FLAC but of course is pirating but of high quality.
But do not fear if a buck can be made as a middle man someone will fill the gap.


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## violadude

mamascarlatti said:


> Why would you use CDs? I have an external hard drive - well, two that I rotate actually - and periodically I just dump my music library on it. It takes about an hour to transfer my 70G's worth.


Umm heh heh I don't know what that is, or how to get one. I'm so behind the times.


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## mamascarlatti

violadude said:


> Umm heh heh I don't know what that is, or how to get one. I'm so behind the times.


That's why I gave you the link. Click on the blue text. You buy them online or in a computer store.

It's like the storage you have in your computer, but instead of being inside your computer you connect it to your computer with a cable and transfer your data.


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## violadude

mamascarlatti said:


> That's why I gave you the link. Click on the blue text. You buy them online or in a computer store.
> 
> It's like the storage you have in your computer, but instead of being inside your computer you connect it to your computer with a cable and transfer your data.


Oh, why didn't I see the link before? >.< Thank you! 

If I save my Itunes tracks on here, will it keep all the track names intact?


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## itywltmt

How fitting that on this day, November 29 1877, *Thomas Edison *demonstrates the phonograph for the first time. From Wikipedia:



> Thomas Alva Edison conceived the principle of recording and reproducing sound between May and July 1877 as a byproduct of his efforts to "play back" recorded telegraph messages and to automate speech sounds for transmission by telephone. He announced his invention of the first phonograph, a device for recording and replaying sound, on November 21, 1877 [...] and he demonstrated the device for the first time on November 29 (it was patented on February 19, 1878 as US Patent 200,521).


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## mleghorn

I'm fine with downloading music as long as the audio quality isn't compromised. Everything I've downloaded form HDTracks.com has been fine (uncompressed AIFF format). However, everything I've downloaded from Passionato has been defective. My hunch is (based on my experience) that all Decca and DG downloads are flawed, no matter where you get them from. That's Polygram, right?


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## Scarpia

I've downloaded a few tracks from DG. The process is very cumbersome, but you have the option of picking compressed or uncompressed (FLAC). I've downloaded FLAC files and they have been flawless (since they are bit-for-bit identical to the CD). I've heard some complaints about mp3 files from Universal Classics, but there's always a danger of degradation in lossy compression.

Returning to the original topic, major labels may abandon the CD for pop music in the near future, but I think it is safe to assume that classical music CDs will not go away anytime soon.


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## jhar26

Scarpia said:


> I've downloaded a few tracks from DG. The process is very cumbersome, but you have the option of picking compressed or uncompressed (FLAC). I've downloaded FLAC files and they have been flawless (since they are bit-for-bit identical to the CD). I've heard some complaints about mp3 files from Universal Classics, but there's always a danger of degradation in lossy compression.
> 
> Returning to the original topic, major labels may abandon the CD for pop music in the near future, but I think it is safe to assume that classical music CDs will not go away anytime soon.


The end of 2012 seems like strange timing to me. December is usually the best month for CD sales. Cash in one last time and giving the format the boot early in 2013 would seem more in line with their way of thinking.


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## mamascarlatti

violadude said:


> Oh, why didn't I see the link before? >.< Thank you!
> 
> If I save my Itunes tracks on here, will it keep all the track names intact?


I use Windows media player. It keeps everything intact as far as that is concerned, track names and album art.

You transfer using Windows Explorer if you use a laptop - clcik and drag your folders to the external storage device - I don't know the process for a Mac but it's bound to be pretty intuitive.

Seriously you need to start backing up - what if you lost all your other data?


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## Jeremy Marchant

Scarpia said:


> I've downloaded FLAC files and they have been flawless (since they are bit-for-bit identical to the CD).


Since it is possible to make "studio master" quality files available which are much better quality than CD, I cannot understand why
(a) not all labels do this
(b) classical music purchasers won't shell out for the best possible recording when it _is _available.

As a consequence, Hyperion don't make SACDs or studio master quality downloads available, as a matter of "policy", even though their new release of Brian's _Gothic _is crying out to be heard in the best possible sound (sound which already exists and which it would be trivially easy to make available). I understand, from Ivor Tiefenbruhn, that Linn Records sell more studio master recordings than either of the other two formats they offer!


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## HarpsichordConcerto

I have downloaded some complete albums from www.ClassicsOnLine.com (and then burnt on CDs subsequently). Anybody care to comment if this site is crap or worthy? The quality on CD that I burnt later sound like any other CDs I have. So I'm happy with it. The site charges US$9.99 per album (or at least the ones I have paid for).


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## Ralfy

I buy CDs because they are more durable than other media, but as long as the quality of download-only releases is the same, the cost is lower, any booklets and notes are included in digital format, and I can back up the files to disk, then the download-only releases look fine. As for streaming, that's probably practical for me if I want to listen to a sample.

Of course, given long-term problems like peak oil, we'll probably go back to vinyl.


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## jhar26

Ralfy said:


> I buy CDs because they are more durable than other media, but as long as the quality of download-only releases is the same, the cost is lower, any booklets and notes are included in digital format, and I can back up the files to disk, then the download-only releases look fine. As for streaming, that's probably practical for me if I want to listen to a sample.
> 
> Of course, given long-term problems like peak oil, we'll probably go back to vinyl.


I don't think that CD's are more durable than vinyl though. "A lifetime of listening pleasure" was one of the catch phrases when they launched the CD format, but it only seems to be true if your lifetime limits itself to a 25 year period. Some of the CD's I bought in the late 80's now skip or don't play at all anymore.


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## mamascarlatti

jhar26 said:


> I don't think that CD's are more durable than vinyl though. "A lifetime of listening pleasure" was one of the catch phrases when they launched the CD format, but it only seems to be true if your lifetime limits itself to a 25 year period. Some of the CD's I bought in the late 80's now skip or don't play at all anymore.


You mentioned CDs skipping somewhere else and I got anxious, because my basic opera collection came together in the 80s(though I must say I've added to it since coming to TC). I've been through mine and haven't had a problem with any of them so far. Sounds as though you had a run of bad luck.


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## jhar26

mamascarlatti said:


> You mentioned CDs skipping somewhere else and I got anxious, because my basic opera collection came together in the 80s(though I must say I've added to it since coming to TC). I've been through mine and haven't had a problem with any of them so far. Sounds as though you had a run of bad luck.


To put your mind a little bit at ease - these ARE (so far) exceptions. The overwhelming majority of the CD's I bought then still play perfectly. But the few ones that don't are from the late 80's.


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## Guest

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## Guest

Ralfy said:


> I buy CDs because they are more durable than other media, but as long as the quality of download-only releases is the same, the cost is lower, any booklets and notes are included in digital format, and I can back up the files to disk, then the download-only releases look fine. As for streaming, that's probably practical for me if I want to listen to a sample.
> 
> Of course, given long-term problems like peak oil, we'll probably go back to vinyl.


CD's used to be guaranteed for life then they had the 'Tarnishing' upset, so now there is no manufacturer willing to make a guarantee in terms of time afaik. this was a few years ago and the problem could have a solution by now but if you take care of your vinyl it could outlast you lol.


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## Moscow-Mahler

As far as I know, most CD players still play only CD or SACD. Only Marantz (I have another one - a Rotel) produced a CD player with flash-card support.

I listen to CDs, because I like cover design, etc, and because I don't like to play music on a computer or a portable player. But as far as I understand most hi-fi or hi-end players are for CD and SACD not for files.

I do not think that Amazon 256 mpg is the same sound quality as cd or SACD (though I've never downloaded on amazon, because THEY DO NOT ALLOW non-Europeans to do so).

Linn Records store WAV 96/24. I think all companies should do this. Only the price should be more reasonable.

But I do not want to listen to music on a computer or a portable player!!! I do not want to think about burning a cd. I just want to buy it and insert in a CD-player. *But maybe if they produce more flash-cards' compartible hi-end players and will store WAV 96/24 I will agree.*

I have a flat, which is my property, so I do not care about place. In fact *the bookcases* need more place in a flat. And I have more than 2000 books and still buy them.

I do not want to live in a word without books, cds, only files. 
Though, I do not read *NEWSPAPERS* and magazines now. I read them on a e-book or on a computer. But I want my favorite books and my favorite music to be "material", not virtual.


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## moody

AmateurComposer said:


> The music industry, years ago, stopped producing the vinyl long playing records, but there still are music lovers who cherish them, enough of them that long playing turntables are still available on the market. The same might happen with the CDs.


There is still a market for LPs and they are still being manufactured.


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## Scarpia

Andante said:


> CD's used to be guaranteed for life then they had the 'Tarnishing' upset, so now there is no manufacturer willing to make a guarantee in terms of time afaik. this was a few years ago and the problem could have a solution by now but if you take care of your vinyl it could outlast you lol.


Bronzing was a problem that occurred for fairly limited number of discs where one of the production facilities used the wrong solvent in varnishing the discs, or something along those lines. That problem was identified and solved.

Vinyl, however, degrades every time you play it. CDs, at least, can be copied to a hard drive and stored without loss indefinitely.

I have noticed that my very old CDs seem to have pinpoint holes in the aluminum, but that has not caused any failure to play (CDs have generous redundant data so that a fairly significant flaw can be corrected losslessly). But I am gradually copying my CDs to lossless files (FLAC) for more convenient access to the music, and to guard against loss.


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## opus55

I think I see more turntables in stores recent few years than ten years ago. I don't want to lose the option of physical format. I shouldn't be too worried unless CD prices go up.


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## Ralfy

Hard disks crash, which means one has to keep transferring digital data from one format to another. It's good to have some redundancy, though, like CDs and audio file back ups.

Components for CD players are more complex than those of record players, and thus require more resources, which means we'll probably go back to records in the long term.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I say bring back LP vinyl records for good. Stuff iTunes. CDs are OK but they're no fun.


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## jhar26

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I say bring back LP vinyl records for good. Stuff iTunes. CDs are OK but they're no fun.


CD's are more practical for classical music though. If you're listening to, say, an opera on vinyl you have all these breaks in the music every 20 minutes or so. CD's take up less space also.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Yeah I suppose so. But putting on a vinyl record is much more fun than putting on a cd.


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## Taneyev

There's still a big market for classical vinyls. Go to Ebay and you'll see many of them sold on 3 or even 4 figures. Vinyls collectors are fanatics, and don't want anything else. But it should admit that majority of them don't by exactly LPs, but labels, series, first editions and rarities. As an example: a Kogan's Tchaikovsky or LvB concerto on a original Russian Melodiya you got for maybe U$S 15.- The same recording (exactly the same) on a Columbia can reach 1.500.-


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## moody

Odnoposoff said:


> There's still a big market for classical vinyls. Go to Ebay and you'll see many of them sold on 3 or even 4 figures. Vinyls collectors are fanatics, and don't want anything else. But it should admit that majority of them don't by exactly LPs, but labels, series, first editions and rarities. As an example: a Kogan's Tchaikovsky or LvB concerto on a original Russian Melodiya you got for maybe U$S 15.- The same recording (exactly the same) on a Columbia can reach 1.500.-


You are quite right and they mostly come from Japan. I've always refused to deal with them because they have no interest in the actual music.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

This was the first vinyl record I ever bought. I've seen people who would pay AU$80 for it, when I got it for $5 at a second hand shop.


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## moody

jhar26 said:


> To put your mind a little bit at ease - these ARE (so far) exceptions. The overwhelming majority of the CD's I bought then still play perfectly. But the few ones that don't are from the late 80's.


You can get them professionaly cleaned, they have a machine at my local library--cost £1.00 per disc.


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## AmateurComposer

Odnoposoff said:


> Times are accelerating, and fast:
> 78 RPM: 1899/1946 = 47 years live
> 33 RPM: 1946/83 = 37 years live
> CD: 1983/2012 (?) =29 years live
> I suspect new sistems will be obsolet an death in just very few years.


At this rate, what will be the life span of future innovations? Minutes? Seconds? Microseconds?


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## Guest

Odnoposoff said:


> Times are accelerating, and fast:
> 78 RPM: 1899/1946 = 47 years live
> 33 RPM: 1946/83 = 37 years live
> CD: 1983/2012 (?) =29 years live
> I suspect new sistems will be obsolet an death in just very few years.


How about tape?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Tape was never alive. Only ever records and CDs, and now, iTunes.


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## Guest

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Tape was never alive. Only ever records and CDs, and now, iTunes.


I'm sorry I don't understand when you say Tape was never alive ???


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Tape wasn't anything much


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## Guest

You have to be joking old chap!!! Sony Walkman? Tape players in Cars? all of the early CD's were from tape masters. 
I would sugest that you do a bit more research. and that still does not explain the meaning of your comment (tape was never alive) ??


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Hm. Well I've never noticed tapes much.


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## Philip

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Hm. Well I've never noticed tapes much.


Hmm didn't you say in another thread that you were 12 or something... ?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

No. I said I was fourteen.

Oh wait... When _where_ tapes around?


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## graaf

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> No. I said I was fourteen.
> 
> Oh wait... When _where_ tapes around?


By the time you were born, their decline was in full speed. But as Andante said, back in the day, Walkman was all the rage. In fact, it was more revolutionary that iPod, because Walkman was first to let you carry your music with you - iPod is basically Walkman for digital music. Sony even tried another approach in that field, but they had other ideas that never caught attention outside Japan).


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## Taneyev

I was short on my gess. A few days ago on Ebay, a Columbia Kogan's LvB v.c.sold on more than u$s 3.500.- Totally absurd!!


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Guess how much I bought this for last year


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## Delicious Manager

I think this is nonsense. Even today, vinyl LPs are manufactured (albeit as limited editions) 25 years after the CD came onto the market. I think the outcry will be too great for this to be a reality (even if the article is reliable - which I doubt); there are far too many people who want more than just a few Mb of digital information on a computer or an iPod (one of which I don't have). There are also too many people who care about sound quality. Until there is a lossless format that doesn't require huge files, this idea is just unacceptable. I can't listen to classical music on MP3s - I just can't bear the compression and the loss of the top and bottom frequencies of the music (yes, I CAN tell the difference).


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## Moscow-Mahler

Maybe, if I have an opportunity to buy e.g. an opera in a WAV format, instead of buying 3cds-set and connect an external hard-drive or something like that with a standart CD/SACD-player and listen, it will be good. It will also be great for out-of-print recordings.


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## Philip

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> No. I said I was fourteen.
> 
> Oh wait... When _where_ tapes around?


Sorry, my bad. But as graaf says, tapes were long gone by then anyway..



Delicious Manager said:


> I think this is nonsense. Even today, vinyl LPs are manufactured (albeit as limited editions) 25 years after the CD came onto the market. I think the outcry will be too great for this to be a reality (even if the article is reliable - which I doubt); there are far too many people who want more than just a few Mb of digital information on a computer or an iPod (one of which I don't have). There are also too many people who care about sound quality. Until there is a lossless format that doesn't require huge files, this idea is just unacceptable. I can't listen to classical music on MP3s - I just can't bear the compression and the loss of the top and bottom frequencies of the music (yes, I CAN tell the difference).


I'd have to disagree, vinyl doesn't have anything to do with digital music. For some people, most of their collection is already on vinyl and it is more of a convenience than anything; yet for others, playing a record on a turntable has become an epicurean experience in itself. Hence there will always be a market for vinyl.

Then again, you could probably say the same thing about the compact disc. Nonetheless, the first point can be worked around, since digital audio can be losslessly transferred to a hard drive. The second point is... well, an illusion, for those who possess the golden ear.

The golden ear bearers fall into two categories, those who believe that lossy formats (eg. MP3) are not up to standards compared to the CD, and beyond that, those who believe that even the CD is not sufficient with regards to higher quality formats (eg. 24bit, 96kHz). Conveniently, perhaps surprisingly, an ABX experiment can falsify both of these cases. That is to say, practically, a high quality AAC or MP3 file sounds the same as its source, whatever it may be.

Of course, there are rare instances in which lossy compression does introduce audible artifacts, but in general, lossy compression is transparent for music. Although, that doesn't take away from the necessity for higher definition audio in the industry, seeing that most recording nowadays are digital, high sample rate and resolution are needed for editing and mixing.

In a nutshell, vinyl records are not going anywhere, while for digital audio, as people are moving away from the restraints of physical discs, it is only a matter of time before CD collections are replaced by media servers, ipods, and whatnot -- without any real drawbacks.


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## Guest

*@Philip,*I do agree with you I have a reasonably HiFi set up and [email protected] is good enough for the vast majority of classical works I do not hesitate to d/l at this rate if FLAC is not an option. and for the car I make mp3 CD's @192 which is adequate.:tiphat:


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## Vaneyes

I read somehwre recently that cassette tapes were making a comeback. That rumor must've been started by someone with 80,000 of them in his garage.


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