# Which Composer Wrote the Most Difficult Piano Music?



## Klassic (Dec 19, 2015)

That is to say, which composer wrote the most difficult piano music to play?


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

Rachmaninoff, Brahms and Liszt


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Debussy. A completely unique musical language. Very difficult to play convincingly. Keys and pedals.


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## Klassic (Dec 19, 2015)

helenora said:


> Rachmaninoff, Brahms and Liszt


Not a contemporary composer? Milton Babbitt perhaps?


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Nikolai Medtner
Max Reger
Scriabin and Feinberg perhaps.


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

Klassic said:


> Not a contemporary composer? Milton Babbitt perhaps?


I´m not familiar enough with Babbitt. If you provide links on his piano compositions I´ll gladly check them.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

hpowders said:


> Debussy. A completely unique musical language. Very difficult to play convincingly. Keys and pedals.


Yes, I agree. Debussy said that he wanted the piano to sound like an instrument without hammers. It's hard for a pianist to make that happen!


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Sorabji and Finnissy, also Ligeti´s Etudes.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bettina said:


> Yes, I agree. Debussy said that he wanted the piano to sound like an instrument without hammers. It's hard for a pianist to make that happen!


Yes! In my opinion, any pianist who can play L'isle joyeuse effectively can play anything!


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Alkan and Henselt are apparently very difficult to play as well. And what about Ravel and Prokofiev?


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## Klassic (Dec 19, 2015)

I almost forgot about Ravel's virtuoso _Gaspard de la Nuit _


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

On the piano forums I used to hang out I believe Alkan was generally considered more difficult than Liszt.


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## Genoveva (Nov 9, 2010)

A quick scan of the internet suggests the following works are among the most difficult piano works. I dare say there are several others. 

I must add that I'm not familiar with several of these so I can't be sure they're all valid. I don't have scores for any of them. 

Of those with which I am familar, in my opinion the Godowsky Etudes are probably the most difficult. The Chopin Etudes on which they are based are bad enough but Godowsky took them a stage further. 

To many top pianists these days, I would imagine that all these works are within their grasp.

Alkan: Grande Sonate Les Quatre Age
Alkan: Le Preux
Alkan: Le preux
Alkan: The Railroad
Beethoven: Hammerklavia
Boulez: Piano Sonata No 2
Busoni: Carmen Fantasy
Busoni: Fantasia Contrapunstica
Chopin: Sonata No 3
De Schlözer: Étude in A-flat
Debussy: Image Book II 
Godowsky: Studies on Chopin's Études
Hamelin: Circus gallop
Ligeti: Etudes
Liszt: Feux Follets
Liszt: Rondo Fantastique
Liszt: Transcendental Études
Mereaux: Etudes Op 60
Rachmaninoff: Piano Concerto No 3
Rachmaninoff: Sonata No 2
Ravel: Gaspard de la Nuit
Rosenthal: Grande Etude on Chopin
Scriabin: Sixth Sonata, Op 62
Sorabji: Opus clavicembalisticum
Villa-Lobos: Rudepoema


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Don't forget Messiaen. ("Vingt Rgards" . . . etc.)


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Balakirev's Islamey is pretty hard to play (although it's probably not the MOST difficult piano piece ever written)...


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

Judging from the wide variety of interpretations: Prokofiev's 6th Sonata


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

OP asked about composers rather than individual pieces. On that basis, I reckon Alkan gets the vote.


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## Klassic (Dec 19, 2015)

Pat Fairlea said:


> OP asked about composers rather than individual pieces. On that basis, I reckon Alkan gets the vote.


I botched it. The most difficult individual piece by a composer was the objective.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Iberia by Albeniz is apparently very difficult.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Stockhausen's Klavierstücke X is physically difficult to play. The score is indicative only in many parts.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

John Cage .....


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Becca said:


> John Cage .....


John Cage's Water Walk might be difficult for some pianists. In one of the movements, the pianist has to get up from the piano, chop vegetables, and put them in a blender. Many concert artists would be very bad at doing such a domestic thing!


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## ST4 (Oct 27, 2016)

Becca said:


> John Cage .....


Well, I would agree that "Music Of Changes" by John Cage is a very complex and virtuostic work. It's good to know you like his piano music :tiphat:


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

ArtMusic said:


> Stockhausen's Klavierstücke X is physically difficult to play. The score is indicative only in many parts.


I was going to mention this. It strikes me as either very difficult, or very, very easy to play.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Ravel's Gaspard de la Nuit and Liszt big sonata .


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## Andolink (Oct 29, 2012)

*Michael Finnissy*: _Piano Concerto No. 4_


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

ArtMusic said:


> Stockhausen's Klavierstücke X is physically difficult to play. The score is indicative only in many parts.


Having been trained as a classical pianist since I was 8 and having a masters in music, I can say without hesitation, that this piece would not be that difficult to play at all. Although I don't see the point. When I see little kids who have never sat a piano before and start banging away on it, the results are the same, albeit the may not use their entire forearms.

V


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## Medtnaculus (May 13, 2015)

Scriabin and Ravel. Not just techincally demanding but the virtuosity is in a way such that you have to make it sound effortless. Pulling their works off musically take much more than one would think.

Also Mereaux's etudes trump anything by Alkan technically (though there is little to no musical value in them).


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Medtnaculus said:


> Also Mereaux's etudes trump anything by Alkan technically (though there is little to no musical value in them).


This sounds intriguing. Sometimes I'm in the mood for empty virtuosity. It can be refreshing to hear something that's all fingers and no soul!!

Can you please recommend any recordings of the Mereaux etudes? Or a youtube video?


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## Medtnaculus (May 13, 2015)

There aren't many recordings I know of (though a few midi youtube videos). One video I find particularly humorous is this:






Many of his etudes are guilty of taking a concept and just pushing it past any reasonable level.

Hamelin himself said they weren't worth the trouble of learning due to their difficulty vs lack of musical substance.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Klassic said:


> I botched it. The most difficult individual piece by a composer was the objective.


Fair enough, then how about Ives 2nd Piano Sonata?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

brianvds said:


> I was going to mention this. It strikes me as either very difficult, or very, very easy to play.


Well this means I am better than I thought. I can play with my arms!


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## Stavrogin (Apr 20, 2014)

Prokofiev is the answer.

I am starting to think that "Prokofiev" is a good answer to _any_ question


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

Medtnaculus said:


> There aren't many recordings I know of (though a few midi youtube videos). One video I find particularly humorous is this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for that. I am unfamiliar with his works and never saw that before. You are correct, it was humorous and it becomes ridiculous after a while, however, that piece is EXTREMELY difficult to play.

V


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Varick said:


> Thank you for that. I am unfamiliar with his works and never saw that before. You are correct, it was humorous and it becomes ridiculous after a while, however, that piece is EXTREMELY difficult to play.
> 
> V


That video serves as a nice reply to anyone who argues that Mozart's relative technical simplicity means he was a lesser composer than the romantics. 

In some ways it is actually not a bad piece, but I'm sure very similar effects could have been achieved in a technically far less challenging work.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Playing through all of Fartein Valen´s 25,000 piano etudes would also be quite a difficult feat ...


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The Debussy Etudes are astonishingly virtuosic and not superficial by any means.


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

Technically difficult does not mean it is emotionally difficult.


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## Guest (Nov 24, 2016)

I'm almost certain that Finnissy's _The History Of Photography In Sound_ takes the cake over anything else in this thread.


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## chalkpie (Oct 5, 2011)

Ives - Concord Sonata is a BEAR to play......Grizzly, Polar, Black, Brown, take your pick. Especially the first two movements (Emerson and Hawthorne). Gaspard de la Nuit and Ligeti Etudes also aren't exactly easy.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

chalkpie said:


> Ives - Concord Sonata is a BEAR to play. Grizzly, Polar, Black, Brown, take your pick. Especially the first two movements (Emerson and Hawthorne). Gaspard de la Nuit and Ligeti Etudes also aren't exactly easy.


Roger that. One of my favorite piano sonatas of all time!


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## chalkpie (Oct 5, 2011)

hpowders said:


> Roger that. One of my favorite piano sonatas of all time!


Cheers. The Concord IS my favorite solo piano piece, period.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

chalkpie said:


> Cheers. The Concord IS my favorite solo piano piece, period.


Probably mine too, though all the 4'33" worshippers on TC probably never heard it.

My favorite performance is by Easley Blackwood; though I have 5 other interpretations.


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## chalkpie (Oct 5, 2011)

hpowders said:


> Probably mine too, though all the 4'33" worshippers on TC probably never heard it.
> 
> My favorite performance is by Easley Blackwood; though I have 5 other interpretations.


I don't think I've heard that reading - will investigate.

My fav is probably Hamelin's second recording on Hyperion - I think its really amazing, especially The Alcotts and Thoreau....well the whole thing really. His first is also quite good, but the newer one seems "perfect". Its amazing how different this piece can sound, especially with such variances in tempi. One that has never really grown on me is Aimard's recording. He doesn't seem to get the American aspects of the piece imo. But he plays a majestic Ligeti and Messiaen - just mindblowing on that stuff.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

chalkpie said:


> I don't think I've heard that reading - will investigate.
> 
> My fav is probably Hamelin's second recording on Hyperion - I think its really amazing, especially The Alcotts and Thoreau....well the whole thing really. His first is also quite good, but the newer one seems "perfect". Its amazing how different this piece can sound, especially with such variances in tempi. One that has never really grown on me is Aimard's recording. He doesn't seem to get the American aspects of the piece imo. But he plays a majestic Ligeti and Messiaen - just mindblowing on that stuff.


It's terrific. He almost makes it sound easy. One of the great interpretations.

Easley Blackwood. Get it. Listen to it if you get the chance and let me know if you do.


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## arnerich (Aug 19, 2016)

I think Beethoven's Hammerklavier takes the prize for most difficult piece in the standard repertory. There's something uniquely demanding in every movement, the fugue especially.


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## chalkpie (Oct 5, 2011)

hpowders said:


> It's terrific. He almost makes it sound easy. One of the great interpretations.
> 
> Easley Blackwood. Get it. Listen to it. Contact me.


Done and done. Well, not yet, but it will get done


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

arnerich said:


> I think Beethoven's Hammerklavier takes the prize for most difficult piece in the standard repertory. There's something uniquely demanding in every movement, the fugue especially.


Someone who must be playing piano .....am I right?


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

I would have to go for Prokofiev. His piano sonatas are all very challenging, particularly the 6th, and his Toccata has been used as an exhibition piece by concert pianists for decades. Horowitz's 1930 performance of the Toccata is jaw-dropping despite the less than perfect sound due to having been recorded such a long time ago.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Play the Chopin Etudes. Come back and we'll discuss over coffee.


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## lextune (Nov 25, 2016)

Difficulty is subjective.

There are hundreds of scores that ask for feats of finger prestidigitation. But playing the correct notes of any piece is actually the easiest part of interpretation.

True pianistic difficulty lies in musical expression, holding together of the structure, voice leading, tone production, gradation of sound, on and on and on.

All of Chopin's music, when played well, is extremely difficult.
All of Beethoven's music...
All of Liszt's...
All of Alkan's...
All of Debussy's...
All of Scriabin's...Rachmaninov's...Ravel's....Prokofiev... 

Normally, playing the piano well is a difficult endeavor.

If you are talking about difficulties outside of the norm, we can discuss Sorabji, Godowsky, Ligeti, Albeniz, Boulez, Balakirev, so many others...

If you put a gun to my head, and I had to choose just one piece from the "standard" literature, I would go with Beethoven's Hammerklavier, for it's brutal technical, emotional, musical, and structural difficulties.


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

He's probably unknown because of the fact that his music is too difficult to play :lol:


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

lextune said:


> Difficulty is subjective.
> 
> There are hundreds of scores that ask for feats of finger prestidigitation. But playing the correct notes of any piece is actually the easiest part of interpretation.
> 
> ...


Good post on the subject. Two things that surprised me when I started playing the piano seriously was how difficult it is to play a piece well at a very slow tempo and how difficult it is to play almost any Mozart piece well.


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