# To: Rene Leibowitz lover - Why do you love his Beethoven cycle?



## Guest

His rendition of the Ninth is simply too fast and not good fast which you can expect from some others but with this he is just getting done with it. 

So, i ask you what exactly do you find so appealing about his symphony cycle? Do you find the unnecessarily high speed appealing?


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## SixFootScowl

Complete Leibowitz Beethoven symphony cycle and more for $1.09 (digital download):
The Genius of Beethoven: 100 Classical Masterpieces


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## DiesIraeCX

Well, I'm guessing for some, it's appealing because the tempos are what Beethoven imagined/wrote. Similar to today's HIP's movement that is all about "authenticity", with regards to tempos, orchestra size, period instruments, etc. You get to hear what Beethoven envisioned, so to speak. Leibowitz didn't use period instruments, but his tempos are just as fast as any HIP conductor, sometimes faster! Whether it works for you is just a matter of personal taste.


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## KenOC

Certainly works for me, in some of the symphonies at least. Listen to the woodwinds in the finale of No. 4!


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## DavidA

I found Chailly's cycle (on my shelves) disappointing. It's too fast. Rushes through the whole thing.


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## realdealblues

It's all about whether you choose to honor Beethoven's metronome markings or not. Beethoven received a metronome shortly after it was invented and later went back and wrote metronome markings on his Symphonies. Many people thought his metronome must be broken because of how fast the Symphonies would be if it was correct. The fact is his actual metronome was tested and found to be accurate. Now, he was also pretty much deaf when he did this so some consider the possibility that maybe that played a factor into things, but if the man could write the 9th Symphony totally deaf surely he could have watched the metronome and been able to properly figure out tempo.

Leibowitz tried to keep in line with Beethoven's metronome markers. Just like Chailly has done more recently. Both are excellent if indeed this is what Beethoven truly wished for his music. If it sounds too fast maybe it's because you grew up listening to Beethoven not played at proper tempo. Had you heard Leibowitz or Chailly first you might find everyone else too slow. Some would argue maybe you are actually hearing Beethoven for the first time and that if you don't like it maybe you really don't like Beethoven.

Myself, I find both metronome markings and general tempos valid. Leibowitz does a great job and I still love his cycle but Chailly is my top pick for metronome markings because of the improved sound. He also doesn't use the new Barenreiter edition of the score from Del Mar (which I don't agree with). He also doesn't take up the old trick of doubling the woodwinds or brass. He also doesn't use a chamber orchestra or period instruments. If Beethoven truly intended his symphonies to be played at this tempo, than there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that this is the version he would have wanted to hear.

However, I can also understand taking the general tempos of Allegro or Andante or Adagio, etc. Take Herbert Blomstedt's excellent cycle for instance. All the tempos are moderate and it works out perfectly. I can also understand going with someone like Klemperer who can reveal so much clarity and texture within the music. 

For me both options are valid and I would not want to be without the ability to compare both and is the reason why I have the recordings I do.


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## SixFootScowl

Thanks, Well I'll give Leibowitz a try since I got it for 9 cents after a $1.00 off Amazon promo that had been sitting on my account. Besides Wand and Walter, I have the Hanover Band set (more than one conductor) and the NAXOs set with Edlinger for most and Halasz on two symphonies. Others that I have considered and may still get someday include Blomstedt and Cluytens.


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## realdealblues

Florestan said:


> Thanks, Well I'll give Leibowitz a try since I got it for 9 cents after a $1.00 off Amazon promo that had been sitting on my account. Besides Wand and Walter, I have the Hanover Band set (more than one conductor) and the NAXOs set with Edlinger for most and Halasz on two symphonies. Others that I have considered and may still get someday include Blomstedt and Cluytens.


Wand is probably my pick for an all around modern cycle. The Wand cycle has excellent sound and tempos that are on the faster side but not necessarily following the tempo markings. He includes many very fine details in the scores that many people skip over. The 9th has really good singing. It's just a really, really good cycle and if you just want a Beethoven cycle from the modern lot with excellent sound and don't care if it follows Beethoven metronome markings it's top of the mark for me.

Blomstedt is very similar to Wand except his tempos are just a shade slower. But Blomstedt has the advantage of the Staatskapelle Dresden which to me is one of the finest orchestras in history so the playing is gorgeous and the woodwinds are just exceptional. The sound is excellent and you can usually buy the box set for under $10. It's my probably my 1st choice recommendation for someone on a budget who only wants to spend $10 for a really good cycle in great modern sound.

If you don't mind older sonics, then Szell & Klemperer are also essential in my book as well.

If you end up liking Leibowitz and want something in modern sound then check out the Chailly cycle. Also just as a side note that popped into my head, Leibowitz also isn't one for taking the repeats, this may detract some listeners, others may not mind it.


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## Itullian

Great all around set.


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## realdealblues

Itullian said:


> Great all around set.


Excellent 4th, 6th and 9th. Good 3rd, 5th and 8th. Ok 1st, 2nd and 7th.

Excellent sonics and wonderful playing from the Vienna Philharmonic definitely make it worth considering. Especially for someone who wants to own a few different Beethoven cycles. It has never left my collection.


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## JACE

realdealblues said:


> Excellent 4th, 6th and 9th. Good 3rd, 5th and 8th. Ok 1st, 2nd and 7th.
> 
> Excellent sonics and wonderful playing from the Vienna Philharmonic definitely make it worth considering. Especially for someone who wants to own a few different Beethoven cycles. It has never left my collection.


Funny. I think Böhm's LvB 7 is the high point of that set.

...One more for the "Everyone Hears Things Differently" file.


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## realdealblues

JACE said:


> Funny. I think Böhm's LvB 7 is the high point of that set.
> 
> ...One more for the "Everyone Hears Things Differently" file.


Very true. We're all different. Some people refer to Bohm as "Stodgy". Most of the time I disagree but his 7th is where I might make an exception.  The 1st two movements are fine. The scherzo starts out fine but the Trio section just bogs down and it's the same way in the finale for me despite the wonderful horns.

The 6th get's all the praise but the 9th is the High Point of the set for me.


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## JACE

realdealblues said:


> The 6th get's all the praise but the 9th is the High Point of the set for me.


Ah, then we are in COMPLETE agreement that Böhm's Ninth is superb.


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## SixFootScowl

I have been listening to Zander's 5th, 7th, and 9th and really like them. Someday perhaps he will have a whole cycle. I think that is his goal anyway.


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## Lord Lance

realdealblues said:


> It's all about whether you choose to honor Beethoven's metronome markings or not. Beethoven received a metronome shortly after it was invented and later went back and wrote metronome markings on his Symphonies. Many people thought his metronome must be broken because of how fast the Symphonies would be if it was correct. The fact is his actual metronome was tested and found to be accurate. Now, he was also pretty much deaf when he did this so some consider the possibility that maybe that played a factor into things, but if the man could write the 9th Symphony totally deaf surely he could have watched the metronome and been able to properly figure out tempo.
> 
> Leibowitz tried to keep in line with Beethoven's metronome markers. Just like Chailly has done more recently. Both are excellent if indeed this is what Beethoven truly wished for his music. If it sounds too fast maybe it's because you grew up listening to Beethoven not played at proper tempo. Had you heard Leibowitz or Chailly first you might find everyone else too slow. Some would argue maybe you are actually hearing Beethoven for the first time and that if you don't like it maybe you really don't like Beethoven.
> 
> Myself, I find both metronome markings and general tempos valid. Leibowitz does a great job and I still love his cycle but Chailly is my top pick for metronome markings because of the improved sound. *He also doesn't use the new Barenreiter edition of the score from Del Mar (which I don't agree with). * He also doesn't take up the old trick of doubling the woodwinds or brass. He also doesn't use a chamber orchestra or period instruments. If Beethoven truly intended his symphonies to be played at this tempo, than there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that this is the version he would have wanted to hear.
> 
> However, I can also understand taking the general tempos of Allegro or Andante or Adagio, etc. Take Herbert Blomstedt's excellent cycle for instance. All the tempos are moderate and it works out perfectly. I can also understand going with someone like Klemperer who can reveal so much clarity and texture within the music.
> 
> For me both options are valid and I would not want to be without the ability to compare both and is the reason why I have the recordings I do.


Why? Is it not scholarly? Have the publisher made blunders while editing the manuscript to make it as close to what my final intentions were? [Even if they sounded _much better_ in my head.]


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## Aggelos

http://www.scribendumrecordings.com/our-shop/4583959841/sc510-13cd---the-art-of-leibowitz/10114478
http://www.norpete.com/c0032.html
http://www.mdt.co.uk/leibowitz-rene-the-art-of-italiana-leibowitz-scribendum-13cds.html



> These are the recordings that René Leibowitz (1913-1972) made for Reader's Digest back in the 1960s.
> [there are a few omissions - see below under "Points of Interest"]
> Charles Gerhardt (on loan from RCA) was producer, and the Decca engineering staff - headed by Kenneth Wilkinson - was in charge of the recording sessions.
> Other conductors who recorded for the mail-order program included Sir John Barbirolli, Sir Adrian Boult, Antal Dorati, Jascha Horenstein, Rudolf Kempe, Josef Krips, Charles Munch, Fritz Reiner and Sir Malcolm Sargent.
> Gorgeous Decca-quality stereo sound.
> 
> Despite not being sold in stores, the Reader's Digest records sold well.
> [the 12 LP box "A Festival of Light Classical Music" sold two million copies.]
> A lot of sophisticates never knew these recordings existed.
> The Reader's Digest was not required reading for highbrows.
> 
> This is a timely release.
> Polish-born but naturalized Frenchman René Leibowitz is almost forgotten today.
> In the 1930s and '40s, he was better known as a composer - a disciple of Arnold Schoenberg and Anton Webern,
> Teacher of Pierre Boulez.
> You'd never guess this from his recorded repertoire (the Reader's Digest wasn't interested in atonal music).
> In addition to Beethoven, Mozart, Schubert, Schumann and Stravinsky, there is a lot of light music in this collection
> - not just Offenbach overtures, but even Gilbert and Sullivan (overture to H.M.S. Pinafore).
> 
> PACKAGING AND SOUND
> Thirteen CDs in cardboard jackets with timings and recording information printed on the back.
> Disappointing cover art - the black and white cover photo is re-used on each jacket.
> Couldn't they at least find a color photo of Leibowitz?
> Unfortunately no booklet is included. A major omission - Leibowitz is not a household name.
> There is an excellent Leibowitz website - see the first comment following my review.
> 
> About three-quarters of this material was released on the audiophile CD label Chesky back in the '90s.
> The rest is new to CD.
> The Beethoven Symphonies were issued ten years ago by Scribendum in excellent sound (I don't have the earlier Chesky CDs for comparison).
> I do own the Chesky CD of "An Evening of Opera" and did an A-B comparison with CD 6 in the Scribendum set.
> My ears aren't perfect (I'm 66 years old) but I couldn't hear any difference.
> The Sorcerer's Apprentice is spectacularly engineered.
> 
> HOW READER'S DIGEST SAVED THE ROYAL PHILHARMONIC:
> The Reader's Digest recording program began in 1960 with recordings by London orchestras recording under pseudonyms:
> The London Philharmonic recorded as the "International Symphony Orchestra".
> The London Symphony recorded as "The London Festival Orchestra".
> Not sure if this was due to contractual obligations or because the musicians were embarrassed to be associated with the Reader's Digest.
> The "New Symphony Orchestra of London" had a long career in the recording studios (RCA recorded concerti with Heifetz and Rubinstein) but I don't think it gave public concerts (rumored to be the Orchestra of the Royal Opera House).
> 
> Sir Thomas Beecham, founder of the Royal Philharmonic, died in March 1961.
> There was concern for the orchestra's survival.
> Not too much of an exaggeration to say that Reader's Digest saved the Royal Philharmonic.
> The orchestra's first project after the death of Beecham was a complete set of Beethoven Symphonies conducted by Leibowitz (in this box)
> 1962 was a busy year:
> In addition to Leibowitz, the Royal Philharmonic made records with Barbirolli (Sibelius), Horenstein (Rachmaninov), Kempe (Respighi), Munch (Bizet, Tchaikovsky), Reiner (Brahms), Sargent (Handel's Messiah), and many more.
> + Piano Concerti with Earl Wild
> + Gilbert & Sullivan with The D'Oyly Carte Opera
> All sponsored by the Reader's Digest.
> 
> POINTS OF INTEREST:
> -- When released in 1962, Leibowitz's Beethoven Symphony set was completely overshadowed by Herbert von Karajan's first (of three) Berlin Philharmonic sets on Deutsche Grammophon.
> Too bad.
> Leibowitz's Beethoven is not "better" than Karajan's, but it is more interesting.
> Fast and Brutal performances.
> Not philosophical or spiritual, but tremendously exciting nonetheless.
> A common enough approach to the Fifth Symphony, but unexpected in the Ninth.
> The finale of Beethoven's Ninth is supposed to be an Ode to Joy, and the Brotherhood of Man.
> This performance will have none of that.
> This is an Angry Ninth - clear from the snarling phrasing of the double basses in their recitative.
> When the singer comes in, he's not lyrical and comforting (like Walter Berry for Karajan).
> Instead the legendary German bass Ludwig Weber (born 1899) is dark and menacing.
> At Bayreuth his roles were Hunding and Hagen - Wagner's blackest villains - and there is no disguising that voice.
> A scary "Ode to Joy".
> This is one of the great performances of Beethoven's Ninth, but I'm not sure that I even like it.
> 
> -- The Mozart and Schubert Symphonies receive swift but not lightweight performances.
> Despite the tempo, Leibowitz (and the engineers) do an excellent job of clarifying the counterpoint in the finale of Mozart's Jupiter Symphony.
> In Schubert's Great C Major Symphony, the performance tradition at the time was to slow down for the codas of the first and fourth movements (contrary to the printed score).
> Leibowitz maintains the same swift tempo right to the end.
> This is one case where I prefer tradition to the composer's score. .
> [Scandalous]
> I miss the dramatic sense of arrival when the tempo broadens.
> 
> -- Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition is played in the familiar Ravel orchestration,
> but Night on Bare Mountain is neither the Rimsky-Korsakov version, nor Mussorgsky's original (which in 1962 was known only to musicologists).
> The Leibowitz orchestration starts out conventionally, but becomes progressively more wacky.
> He even uses a wind machine - actually two wind machines (one for each channel).
> 
> -- Schumann's Rhenish Symphony:
> It used to be commonplace for conductors to tinker with Schumann's orchestration.
> [Mahler re-orchestrated all the symphonies.]
> Leibowitz's version is pretty extreme, with a particularly annoying trumpet in the first movement.
> Hard to recommend, although the finale is certainly rousing.
> 
> -- Leibowitz provides tasteful orchestrations for "Greensleeves" and "Londonderry Air" (aka "London Derriere" or "Danny Boy").
> Uncredited orchestrations of Bach-Gounod, Bizet, Chopin, Dinicu, Dvorak and Franck.
> Most are tastefully done, but Chopin's Op.53 Polonaise is grotesquely over-orchestrated.
> 
> -- The "Gade" on CD 7 is not classical composer Niels Gade (1817-1890) but bandleader Otto Gade (1879-1963).
> His popular song "Jalousie" (1925) became an international hit when Arthur Fiedler recorded it with the Boston Pops.
> 
> Reader's Digest recordings not in this box:
> ---- Bach: Passacaglia & Fugue in C Minor BWV 582 (orch. Leibowitz) - Royal Philharmonic (1962)
> ---- Debussy: Clair de lune - RCA Italiana Symphony Orchestra (early 1960s)
> ---- Gershwin: Suite from Porgy and Bess - New Symphony Orchestra of London (1961)
> ---- Mendelssohn: Midsummer Night's Dream Overture - Royal Philharmonic (1962)
> ---- Mendelssohn: Scherzo from Octet for Strings - Royal Philharmonic (1962)
> ---- Mendelssohn: Violin Concerto, with Hyman Bress - Royal Philharmonic (1962)
> ---- Ravel: Rapsodie Espagnole - Orchestra Filarmonica di Roma (early 1960s)
> ---- Rossini: Dances from William Tell - RCA Italiana Symphony Orchestra (early 1960s)
> ---- Weber: Freischutz Overture - Royal Philharmonic (1962)
> ---- Weber: Oberon overture - Royal Philharmonic (1962)
> [two to three CDs worth of material.]
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Art-Leibowitz-Rene/dp/B013S2PG8C


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I was interested in buying the Rene Leibowitz boxset issued by Urania Records but the JP reviewer says the following (while awarding it with one star only)


> It is a point of interest that the Reader's Digest Recordings were available as mail-orders in the past . Some of them were re-issued by Chesky and RCA. However, by comparing those with the present Urania boxset I am surprised at how bad the audio quality is. I can go as far as doubting that the people at Urania Records had a listen to their CDs when they completed the mastering-manufacturing of them. It is a boxset that I would advise people to steer clear of.
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.jp/RENE-LEIBOW...qid=1456905864&sr=1-6&keywords=rene+leibowitz


http://www.uraniarecords.com/en/product/leibowitz-conducts/


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