# Best Beethoven symphonies



## Gustav

My rank of my favorite BEethoven symphonies

1 Symphony #5
2 Symphony #3 Eroica
3 Symphony #9 choral
4 Symphony #6 pastroal
5 symphony #1
6 Symphony #7
7 symphony #2
8 symphony #4
9 symphony #8

What are your ranks?


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## jwinter

Oh, what the heck.  My ranking, as of today, and I'll even throw in my current favorite recordings of each (though those may change by this evening ) ...

7 Abbado BPO
5 Karajan BPO 77
3 Klemperer Stereo
8 Szell Cleveland SO
4 Walter Columbia SO
6 Bohm VPO
9 Furtwangler 42
2 Bernstein NYPO
1 Gardiner



Gustav said:


> My rank of my favorite BEethoven symphonies
> 
> 1 Symphony #5
> 2 Symphony #3 Eroica
> 3 Symphony #9 choral
> 4 Symphony #6 pastroal
> 5 symphony #1
> 6 Symphony #7
> 7 symphony #2
> 8 symphony #4
> 9 symphony #8
> 
> What are your ranks?


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## karlhenning

Such lists are of but ephemeral value, but I still have fun at them.

I'll say:

*
Fourth
Sixth
Seventh
Third
Eighth
Fifth
Ninth
Second
First
*
Cheers,
~Karl


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## Todd

Interesting lists, but the _correct_ one is as follows:

3
9
6
7
5
4
8
1
2


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## karlhenning

Hmm ... jwinter and I agree on the 'bottom 3' ....

Cheers,
~Karl


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## val

My list:

Nº 7
Nº 3
Nº 9 (it would be my favorite but, sincerely and trying not to sound snobish, I don't like the Finale)
Nº 4
Nº 5
Nº 6
Nº 8
Nº 2
Nº 1


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## Music_Junkie

That's hard. I've actually played all but 3 of the Beethoven Symphonies

5
3(the slow movement is AMAZING to play)
7
6
4
1
2
8
9


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## Pete

Who in their right mind places the Ninth in the bottom three?

I'll do it the jwinter way:

9: Reiner/Fricsay/Furtwangler ('42)
3: Szell/Klemperer (mono)
7: Szell/Kleiber/Reiner
6: Bohm/Reiner/Walter (Col)
8: Toscanini
4: Kleiber
5: Kleiber/Toscanini/Szell
2: Reiner/Szell
1: Reiner


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## karlhenning

Pete said:


> Who in their right mind places the Ninth in the bottom three?



I suppose, someone in his right mind, who prefers six others? 

Cheers,
~Karl


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## Music_Junkie

Pete said:


> Who in their right mind places the Ninth in the bottom three?


After having played Beethoven 9 for auditions and other things and listened to it be incrediably ruined by different orchestras or the different versions that have been arranged I can't help but be more than a bit sick of Beethoven 9, it's a great symphony; wonderfully written, great, expansive melodies and wide appeal but I'm sorry I can't make myself sit down and listen to it anymore.


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## music teacher

Interesting to the third ranked in the top three by everyone.
I think it is the greatest of all, in structure and inventivness.


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## jwinter

Yes, indeed! The Eroica is not my personal favorite, but that's just a matter of taste -- I'll certainly not argue against its greatness. The Funeral March is one of the most moving pieces in all of Beethoven, IMO.

As to the 9th, in a way it's like truffles or caviar -- it's too rich to eat every day. I love it, but compared to the others I seldom listen to it. For me it's music that requires an occasion, and one's complete attention -- I can drive in my car or write a post on a classical music forum while listening to the 4th or the 5th; not so the 9th. And while the greatest performances of the 9th can literally move Heaven and earth, I've heard quite a few mediocre ones that leave me less than inspired. For me, the 9th seems to be more subject to bad interpretation than Beethoven's others -- it's easy for the finale to sound either portentious and bloated or underpowered and scraggly; and the rhythms, in the 2nd movt particularly, are tricky to get right. But have no doubts as to my sanity, it's a great work.


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## Gustav

The list is for best-sounding, I better start another list for most innovative


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## Beethoven's Second Cousin

*The 9th an opera*

Isn't his 9th really an opera in disguise?


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## Chopinson

I'm a new member.I'm a high school student.I've just been in US for 4 month since moved from China,so my English is really poor.But anyway,best greetings to everyone.
My list:
9th(Furtwangler1951 Bayreuth)
5th(Kleiber)
6th(Walter)
3rd(Klemperer)
7th(Kleiber)
8th(Abbado,video,since I don't have any other recordings)
4th(Abbado,same as above)
2nd(same as above)
1st(Gardiner)


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## Daniel

Hello Chopinson! Welcome and I hope you will like it here.

Your English is pretty fine. 

It is the same as with favourite composers. I cannot do any ranking here.

All the best,
Daniel


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## glezzery

I will take All the Beethoven with Klemperer, Szell, and Gardiner!


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## Allegro

1. Symphony no. 5 in C minor, Op. 67 _'Fate'_ 
2. Symphony no. 9 in D minor, Op. 125 _'Choral'_
3. Symphony no. 3 in E flat major _'Eroica'_
4. Symphony no. 6 in F major, Op. 68 _'Pastoral'_
5. Symphony no. 7 in A major, Op. 92
6. Symphony no. 4 in B flat major
7. Symphony no. 8 in F major, Op. 93
8. Symphony no. 2 in D major, Op. 36
9. Symphony no. 1 in C major, Op. 21

That's how i'd order the Beethoven symphonies, i've always felt that the first two, whilst perfectly good music, have always been the weakest of his Symphonies, since then he had yet to find his muse and was mostly emulating Mozart and Haydn. The heroism, trajedy and sheer power of Beethoven's symphonies had yet to develop in those early works.


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## Kurkikohtaus

My favourite is *Eroica*, with the next "tier" being the 5th and 9th.

I find it just a little bit naive (for myself) to rank all of them in some kind of comprehensive running order.

A little anecdote about the merits of the 3rd.

To save money on rehearsal time, my orchestra (in Marienbad, a spa-town in CZ) basically plays 2 programs all summer, alternating them weekly (with some occasional variations). 2 summers ago, one of our programs featured Eroica as the main work. I was a little concerned at the beginning of the run what this would "do" to the orchestra, we had 6 performances of it planned over 14 weeks. Would the performances become boring, run-of-the-mill, uninspired? The contrary was true. This is a _great_ piece for an orchestra to repeat. Each performance was better and better, not just technically, but spiritually as well.


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## Topaz

This seems to be the place for newcomers to set out their views. I've just looked back at previous posts. What a lot of variety. Given that there are over a third of a million ways to permutate the 9, I guess it's not suprising. Anyway here's my list:


9th (Wilhelm Furtwangler 1951 Bayreuth)
5th (Carlos Kleiber)
6th (Karl Bohm)
3rd (Otto Klemperer)
7th (Carlos Kleiber)
8th (Nicholas Harnoncourt)
1st (Simon Rattle)
4th (Bruno Walter)
2nd (Otto Klemperer)
Anyone who hasn't heard the performances of Furtwangler (S 9) and Kleiber (S 5) is missing something. They are something special. I think the best word is "uplifting". Try them. I think you'll agree. Furtwangler seems to get a unique sound into S 9 that's difficult to describe. It makes most others seem pretty weak and uninspired in comparison, although HVK 1977 is pretty good. As for Kleiber's rendition of S 5, I reckon that technically it's the best CD in my whole collection. Brilliant.

Topaz


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## linz

If we are talking about ranking the importance, it would first be 'Eroica', but in terms of glory it would be 'Choral'. As far as overall box sets I would go with Karajan 1963. Karajan always did well with Beethoven. Klieber's 5th and 7th on DG remastered is excellent also. I also like Gardiner, but some people don't like the roughness of the period instruments.


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## Guest

Well the 5th must be the most widely known, but I would go along with 3rd, 5th , 7th, Karajan for me also, Harnoncourt and the COE, are fine as is Gardiner, I also have Kleibers 5th, a long time favourite but I don’t have a remastered CD, I usually go for period instruments but prefer modern instruments for The Master ?


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## lumbogue

5, 6 and 9. I think I could really do without the other ones.


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## linz

You forgot the 7th, it also has absolutely exceptional music. I seem to lean away from Beethoven and towards Schubert, though he wasn't as noted a symphonist, ideas of the 8th and the 9th are perhaps even more fruitful then Beethoven's, save the 7th's second movement and the whole of the 9th of course.


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## Topaz

*Beethoven's 9th*.

I see a reference by Pete above to Fricsay and Furtwangler 42. I don't have either of these, but I've heard these are very good, especially the Fricsay. Are they really better than Furtwangler Bayreuth 51?

I have 5 recordings and the Furtwangler Bayreuth is the best. HVK/77 is second.

With a strong recommendation I might be tempted to buy Fricsay or Furtwangler 42.

I don't like period instruments for Beethoven symphonies so I don't have any Gardiner or Norrington.

The orchestra/conductor especially makes a huge difference with the 9th. Some are bland, some too fast, some completely hopeless in comparison with the best. It's mainly the second and last movements which seal its fate for me. The second has to sound relaxed and dream-like. The 4th has to sound joyful, exuberant and triumphant. Bayreuth excels. Furtwangler's pace and control is spectacular throughout. In the second movement, when the strings begin after about 3 mins, it's divine. You can imagine walking through those "pearly gates" on your way to ... He seems to impart a unique flavour to the whole symphony. There's nothing to match it.

Topaz


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## Saturnus

Of the symphonies I have listened to (top=best, bottom=worst)

Symphony no. 4 
Symphony no. 6 'Pastorale'
Symphony no. 7
Symphony no. 5 'Fate'
Symphony no. 8
Symphony no. 1
Symphony no. 3 'Yawn'


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## Topaz

*RESULTS TIME*

I have done a bit of statistical analysis on the ranks so far.

There have been 13 responses. Of these, two posters only gave the first three ranks. One gave 7 ranks, and 10 gave ranks for all nine symphonies.

Taking account of all responses, and awarding a score of 9 for the top symphony, 8 for the next etc, I get the following overall ranks (top down):

SYM

5
3
6
7
9
4
8
1
2

The nearest to this result was achieved by Pete and Karlhenning, based on correlation coefficients of 0.75 and 0.73 respectively between the above ranks and their preferences.

One interesting result that really surprised me is the mediocre rank for S 9. This is widely considered Beethoven's greatest masteriece. Oh well.

I'm not sure if I have the nerve to tell our friend the film producer _following-the-ninth _(see relevant thread) who is doing a documentary on the Ninth. I wonder if there might be time to switch it for the Fifth?

I see that some regular posters haven't voted.

Any views on the results? My view is that if a truly random sample of Beethoven fans were to be sampled then S 9 would be much higher. If I am right, it means that us lot are a "skewed sample", which I mean in the nicest possible way.

Topaz


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## Saturnus

It could have scrambled the results if there were too many oboists who voted  

On the topic of recordings; what is the best complete recording of the all symphonies you have listened to?


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## Topaz

*Saturnu*s

I don't recommend a boxed set. See my earlier post listing my favourite recordings.

There is nothing else that remotely gets close to the quality of the Kleiber 5/7, so why buy a boxed set containing something else? By far the best version of S 6 is Bohm's. Klemperer's Eroica is a classic. I'm also very fussy about S 9. I only like Furtwangler! The others are poor in comparison.

The only modern recordings I like are Harnoncourt's 8th which is really excellent. I heard it on radio 2 years ago and thought it far better than my Abbado, so I bought it. The same happened re Rattle/VPO S 1. I only had a Toscanini version of S 1. I've thrown all that away. It's dreadful and much too fast.

If you insist on a complete set, it's difficult. All the most recent "best" offerings (e.g. Abbado, Rattle, Harnoncourt) are jazzed up to some extent. They are trying to out-do Karajan. The reviews show they all have weak spots. I'm not all that keen on Karajan, although HVK/77 has long been considered safe. He's too loud and over-bearing for my tastes, although very majestic. I generally prefer the older style: Furtwangler, Klemperer, Walter, Bohm. I reckon a Klemperer set might be best (make sure you get the stereo recordings). The only slight snag with Klemperer is that he is rather on the slower side, but I don't find it a problem. It's very authoritative.

I haven't mentioned period instruments. Some people insist on them. I like it for chamber, but not orchestral. There's Gardiner. However, I heard on radio today the last movement of Mendelssohn's S 5 by Gardiner, and I'm definitely buying it next opportunity. It was really fantastic, so much fresher, and it's a wonderful symphony. You might try it.

Hope this is helpful.

Topaz


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## Hexameron

The only thing I can determine from the results is that everyone has their favorites. Curiously, the topic of this thread, "Best Beethoven symphonies" and the OP's phrase of "favorite symphonies" seems to clash. If this topic is asking our opinion of the _best_ Beethoven symphonies, then it shouldn't be ranked according to our favorites. For the best, (but coincidentally my favorites, too) I would take a gamble with this:

1. Ninth
2. Third
3. Fifth
4. Sixth
5. Seventh
6. Eighth
7. Fourth
8. First
9. Second


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## Kurkikohtaus

Topaz said:


> One interesting result that really surprised me is the mediocre rank for S 9. This is widely considered Beethoven's greatest masteriece. Oh well.


I think the low rank of the 9th may be due to its length, and that many "casual" listeners, who may respond well to #5 and #6 simply don't understand the first 3 movements of #9.


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## Topaz

*Further analysis*

Based on Hexameron's vote, the results (now based on 14 responses) have changed slightly:


5
 3
 6
 9
 7 
 4
 8
 1
 2
The nearest match now is Pete's.

I agree with Hexameron that there is a strong temptation to put down personal favourites when asked for an opinion about "best". The two are not necessarily the same. "Best" implies a notion of objectivity; "favourite" is purely subjective. Some people, of course, don't even know what they themselves prefer in terms of a complete listing, let alone guessing what might be deemed "best" on a wider definition even assuming they knew what "best" means.

Anyway, S 5 is the winner on the above results. I must admit I got a bit fed up with S 5 because it's played so often. But when I heard the Carlos Kleiber version about 2 years ago it restored my faith and I just binned my others.

Topaz


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## Topaz

*Kurkikohtaus*

As you are a respected professional musician, with a lot of familiarity with Beethoven and other Romantic symphonies, may I ask a few questions about how you would prepare an orchestra for one of the symphonies it hasn't played for a long while.

1. Let's take, for example, S 3. You performed this recently. Did you listen to a few recordings and decide which was best, and then try to emulate it, or did you go back to "scratch" and try to put completely your own interpretation on it, perhaps taking account of your orchestra's strengths and weaknesses.

2. Another question: suppose you were doing say the 3'rd for a week's run, and you got feed-back from the audience after a day or two that they thought something wasn't quite right in a few places, would you make adjustments or ignore it?

3. Lastly, how much scope is there to deviate from what Beethoven actually wrote for tempo etc? I mean, do you think that if Beethoven could somehow cast a view on the top recordings of the 3'rd that he would be able to express strong preferences (obviously ignoring his deafness, but I hope you know what I mean), or do you think he might say it's all fair game? Specifically, how much latitude is there to get it "right", if Beethoven were the judge?

These questions could apply to any work of course. If you prefer, substitute the Ninth. I'm certainly interested in your views, if you have the time.

Topaz


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## Kurkikohtaus

Good questions Topaz.

*1.* I never listen to recordings when preparing symphonies or other symphonic works. I do however listen to recordings when preparing concertos, usually as many as I can get my hands on. I do this to get a sense of what soloists "do to the piece", what the various possibilities of the solo part are. Also, you can be sure that soloists also listen to recordings, so maybe the soloist I'll be working with has been influenced by the same recording I've been listening to.

As far as _non-solo_ works are concerned, I don't listen to recordings for a few main reasons:

Many of the "great" recordings out there are distortions of the score. I try to stick to the score.
What you hear on a recording is NOT what you hear when you're standing in front of an orchestra. You must train you INNER ear by imagining the music from the score... THAT is what makes you able to truly listen to the orchestra.
No time! Listening to recordings is a time consuming process, and I usually have to conduct at least 3 performances per month.

*2.* I have never actually received suggestions from the audience, I can't even imagine what I would say in the situation you described. However, I do have discussions with musicians in my orchestra that I trust (after rehearsals) and am open to their suggestions, _as long as they help bring out what's in the score._ I *do not* ever respond positively to musicians who say "_This is the way we play it_" or "_This is what we are used to._" These "traditions" are often the product of conductors who do not respect the score.

*3.* Beethoven and tempos is a tricky issue, becuase he wrote very exact and exacting metronome markings. Many seem "too fast", but some are very comfortable to play and produce exciting results. I believe the main thing with Beethoven's tempos is not a literal rendition of the marking he puts down, but to keep in mind and repect 2 things:

The basic unit of pulse. I he writes HALF NOTE = 66 in the 6th Symphony (which is very fast), it is not important if you take it at 66 or 60 or even 56... what is important is that you conduct in ONE (as opposed to 2) and establish the feeling that the HALF NOTE (and not the quarter note) is the basic unit of pulse
Tempo relationships in between movements. One must then notice if the basic pulse of the next movement is slower or faster than the preceeding one, and choose a tempo that keeps the ratio of this relationship intact. This last point is extremely important in the last movement of the 9th, where there are many tempo changes. It is not the tempos themselves that matter as much as the relationships between them. This is what results in what people call a "Well Balanced" performance.

In conclusion, I would like to stress that the above is only my opinion and not some absolute universal truth. Each musician must find their own way.


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## Topaz

K...........

Thanks. Very clear. I infer that although Beethoven was precise in his symphony tempo markings, and fast, in actual practice some latitude is normal and can sound acceptable. 

It's just that I tend to prefer the slower versions of Beethoven Symphonies (a-la-Klemperer vis-a-vis Toscanini), and I wondered if this might be considered "wrong" in some sense. For example, the Furtwangler 51 Bayreuth version of S 9, at about 74 minutes, is 10 minutes longer that Toscanini's version. The former sounds better on tempo to me, (and in other respects too), but I know that Toscanini always insisted he was strict to Beethoven's scores. Maybe Beethoven got it wrong on tempo? 

What symphonies is your orchestra lined up to do over the next few months? Maybe we could pick up on that theme, and you could tell us a bit more about these works as they progress. Or indeed widen it up to include other major works you will be performing. I understand that you orchestra tends to remain fairly conventional in choice of material, which will suit me. 


Topaz


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## Kurkikohtaus

For our subscription series, we always do at least one Beethoven symphony per year.

I stepped on board in the summer of 2004, so here are the Beethoven's we have done since then:

------------------------
*2004-05*
Symphony No. 8 (because I checked what they had done in previous 5 years and the 8th wasn't there at all)

*2005-06*
Symphony No. 1
Symphony No. 3

*2006-07*
Symphony No. 7 (in March 07, I will not be conducting this one)

*2007-08*
Symphony No. 5
-------------------------

I do not plan to do #6, becuase I had conducted it with the orchestra as a guest conductor before my arrival as Music Director.

As far as #9 is concerned... in April 07, we will be playing Mozart Requiem with the University choir from Nurnberg. If the performances are good, I will speak to their director about the possibility of taking on the 9th in future seasons.


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## Guest

*Kurkikohtaus, * Your comments are very interesting, there are not many pro musicians that would take the time to make such postings and I am sure it is appreciated by all, just one question on tempos, does playing with period, or instruments of the day make more sense of Beethovens tempos, I may be wrong but modern instrument and technique make for better note sustaining qualities or voicing, and if he were alive to-day perhaps he would slow them down a little, if I am way off the mark please excuse me.


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## Kurkikohtaus

I honestly cannot say how historical instruments affect tempo.

I think ensembles that play on period instruments make a point of playing the prescribed tempos as an attempt at "historical accuracy", whatever that entails. Secondly, these ensembles often play with a small number of strings (i.e. 8-6-5-4-3) or even (6-5-4-4-2), as opposed to a symphony orchestra which goes something like (12-10-8-6-4). The small string seating allows for faster tempos without blurring. That said, all good professional orchestras can play the first mvmt of Beethoven's 5th at (half note = 108)... many conductors simply choose not to.


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## Topaz

I have sometimes heard it said they find John Eliot Gardiner a bit too fast for their tastes, in the context of romantic era composers. I must say I don't have a view because I haven't heard much of Gardiner outside the baroque era.



Topaz


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## Topaz

*Kirkikohtaus*

I see that the next Beethoven Symphony you personally will be performing is the 5th.

I've just been reading up on it. It was first performed in 1808 along with the 6th and Piano Con 4 in a 4 hour concert. Both symphonies took several years to complete. By 1808, of course, Beethoven was pretty deaf. At this concert, Beethoven conducted and played the piano.

However, I gather the event was slightly marred by some kind of orchestral error and Beethoven insisted on replaying part of one of the movements again. The audience got a bit fed up. Very curiously, the two symphonies were originally labelled the other way round, i.e what is now the 5th was called the 6th, and vice versa, but it soon got sorted out the way we know it now.

I know you will probably also have a piece by Sibelius. Have you decided what else to put in. Possibly Piano Con 4? Maybe ask Ashkenazy if he is free? If you do, I'd like to attend!

BTW, I'm very keen on visiting Vienna (which is not too far from you) sometime in not too distant future in order to pay my respects to the great and the good buried in the central cemetery, and to have a general look around. Have you been to Vienna? Any useful tips like bring a wheelbarrow of money?

Topaz


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## Kurkikohtaus

Quickly on Vienna: I was assistant conductor of the Janacek Opera in Brno CZ for a few operas. Brno less than an hour's train ride from Vienna, so I used to go over on weekends every now and then. The city is not as "historical" as one might expect, certainly Prague and Budapest top it in that respect. There is a wide array of concerts to be seen on any given day, but be warned: _most of it is total crap_, concerts for tourists by pickup orchestras, masquerading under lofty names like "The Vienna Symphonists" or "Orchestra Vienna". The "real" concerts, like the Vienna Philharmonic, the State Opera and the Volksoper are incredibly expensive and incredibly sold out to Japanese travel agencies.

As far as programming with the 5th is concerned, I have tried a few "all Beethoven" concerts in the past. 2 examples: I did a selections from Fidelio (orchestral and vocal) concert and a more "standard concert", Coriolaus + Triple Concerto + Symphony No. 1. I enjoy these concerts quite a bit, but the audience response was not great, both in terms of walk-up tickets sold and in-the-hall reaction.

So I will put something different ahead of the 5th, right now I'm leaning towards Tchaikovsky Roccoco Variations. Our programming for 2007-08 gets set in stone in March 2007.


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## Topaz

K....

Thanks for the advice about Vienna. I had heard that it's nigh on impossible to get tickets for the VPO. It's all these Japanese tourists, as you say. I didn't realise they were such Beethoven fans. There could even more once this documentary on the Ninth gets aired. 

I think your idea about Prague and Budapest sounds very good. I must see Vienna though. To a classical music fan it's got to be "one of the places you must see before you die". Maybe I'll do all three. Not that I reckon on dying just yet, you understand! I have too much invested in CDs, and there's a lot more I need to get.

Cheers.



Topaz


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## 4/4player

My most favorite symphony gotta be His Fifth symphony....lol, thats the only symphony I have heard of so far and have a score for it...though im willing to listen to other symphonies if I have the money,lol

4/4player


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## Amade Van Haydn

Hi!
This seems an easy start for me here, since I thought about this question before:
1. No. 3 Es major
2. No. 5 c minor
3. No. 9 d minor
4. No. 2 D major
5. No. 7 A major
6. No. 4 B major
7. No. 8 F major
8. No. 6 F major
9. No. 1 C major
So, the "symphonic hunks" I rated first. 
I think The D major symphony is one of the most underrated symphonies, because it's almoust as revolutionary as the Eroica.
No. 1 in C is a cheap Mozart-imitation (I have to cower...  ).
Regards,
AVH.


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## Kurkikohtaus

That's as high up as I've seen the 2nd symphony on any list! Can you elaborate on what you like about it, and why you rate it above 6-7-8?


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## Amade Van Haydn

Hi, Kurkikohtaus!

Some of my thoughts about Beethoven’s Symphony No. 2 D major:

First of all, I like this symphony very much.
The revolutionary aspects of Beethoven’s 2nd symphony are hardly noticed today. The Eroica is seen as quantum jump in the history of symphony. 
But the 2nd symphony was a great step into this direction. Just have a look at the contemporary comments about the work.
But the conductor needs to have the courage to get out the potential of the work.
The first time I recognized the greatness of this symphony was by hearing the Gardiner-recording. It sounded like a total new work to me. 
Perhaps try to hear this CD, or even better the Kubelik-recording (it’s on a CD of the German label Audite).
Besides of the new aspects in this symphony, it’s a last, summary climax of the classic symphony in the sense of Haydn or Mozart.

Now, how should I rank this Beethoven symphony in comparison to the others?
No. 2 before No. 6 ? That’s clear for me, because I don’t like programmatic symphonies much.
No. 2 before No. 8 ? The 8th Beethoven symphony is a very fine piece of music with a quite retrospective character. I can understand everyone, who likes this symphony more, but I miss some depth.
No. 2 before No. 7 ? O.K., this order I could turn around in my ranking, but I wanted to underline the importance of op. 36 for me.

Last, but not least, works with the title “Symphony No. 2 D major” seem to impress me very much: Beethoven, Brahms, Mehul, Sibelius: Four of my favourite symphonies.

Regards,
AVH.


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## Evan Roberts

Kurkikohtaus, Have you heard the Sir Charles Mackerras recordings of Beethoven's symphonies with the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic? Of note is not only the adherence to the composers' marked tempos, but also his use of "recent research" to "correct" what are believed to be misprints or mistakes in the printed editions. 

The above are the only recordings of these symphonies that I own, and while I feel that the choir and solo singers in the 9th symphony are slightly lacking, overall I'm very pleased this set.

For what it's worth, I would list the symphonies in this order (best to worst)

9th, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 8th, 6th , 4th, 2nd and finally the 1st.


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## Handel

Amade Van Haydn said:


> Hi, Kurkikohtaus!
> 
> Some of my thoughts about Beethoven's Symphony No. 2 D major:
> 
> First of all, I like this symphony very much.
> The revolutionary aspects of Beethoven's 2nd symphony are hardly noticed today. The Eroica is seen as quantum jump in the history of symphony.
> But the 2nd symphony was a great step into this direction. Just have a look at the contemporary comments about the work.
> But the conductor needs to have the courage to get out the potential of the work.
> The first time I recognized the greatness of this symphony was by hearing the Gardiner-recording. It sounded like a total new work to me.
> Perhaps try to hear this CD, or even better the Kubelik-recording (it's on a CD of the German label Audite).
> Besides of the new aspects in this symphony, it's a last, summary climax of the classic symphony in the sense of Haydn or Mozart.
> 
> Now, how should I rank this Beethoven symphony in comparison to the others?
> No. 2 before No. 6 ? That's clear for me, because I don't like programmatic symphonies much.
> No. 2 before No. 8 ? The 8th Beethoven symphony is a very fine piece of music with a quite retrospective character. I can understand everyone, who likes this symphony more, but I miss some depth.
> No. 2 before No. 7 ? O.K., this order I could turn around in my ranking, but I wanted to underline the importance of op. 36 for me.
> 
> Last, but not least, works with the title "Symphony No. 2 D major" seem to impress me very much: Beethoven, Brahms, Mehul, Sibelius: Four of my favourite symphonies.
> 
> Regards,
> AVH.


Absolutely.

The first symphony was the product of a "student". Haydn influence was obvious. The second was the product of a genius in waiting. Just listen to the 2 last minutes of the 4th movement. A typical Beethovenian trait. 

I would rank the symphonies, in order of preference:

#3
#5
#2
#7
#6
#1
#9 (ok, ok, I prefer classical style to early romantic)
#8

I didn't listen to # 4 so I can't tell.


----------



## Kurkikohtaus

Amade Van Haydn said:


> The revolutionary aspects of Beethoven's 2nd symphony are hardly noticed today. The Eroica is seen as quantum jump in the history of symphony.


*Amade*, thanks for your reply. While I respect your personal preference of this piece over the other symphonies, I'm not sure what the "revolutionary aspects" of this piece are.

I respect the 2nd symphony for a number of things:

A very difficult and deeply expressive slow introduction
A second movement that "sounds" like a second mvmt, not always typical for Beethoven
A scherzo that foreshadows Klangfarbenmelodie by 100 years, but Haydn did this also
A fun and uplifting finale
So while I like the piece for the reasons listed above, I'm not sure if these or other elements are truly revolutionary when compared to the 3rd (structure) or 4th (harmony) symphonies.

_P.S. Nice observation about various Symphony No. 2's in D major!_


----------



## opus67

Kurkikohtaus said:


> _P.S. Nice observation about various Symphony No. 2's in D major!_


Just like many of the violin concerti. While not necessarily a "major," they are definitely in D.


----------



## ChamberNut

My favorite Beethoven symphonies in order:

1 - Symphony No. 9 "Choral"

2 - Symphony No. 7

3 - Symphony No. 3 "Eroica"

4 - Symphony No. 6 "Pastoral"

5 - Symphony No. 5

6 - Symphony No. 4

7 - Symphony No. 8 (this used to be my least favorite Beethoven symphony, but it's grown on me and has risen up in my standings )

8 - Symphony No. 1

9 - Symphony No. 2


----------



## Morigan

Handel said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> The first symphony was the product of a "student". Haydn influence was obvious. The second was the product of a genius in waiting. Just listen to the 2 last minutes of the 4th movement. A typical Beethovenian trait.
> 
> I would rank the symphonies, in order of preference:
> 
> #3
> #5
> #2
> #7
> #6
> #1
> #9 (ok, ok, I prefer classical style to early romantic)
> #8
> 
> I didn't listen to # 4 so I can't tell.


The 4th is surprisingly good. I'd rank it higher than the 1st, 2nd and 8th. I'd say it's my favourite "lesser-known Beethoven Symphony".

Anyway, Beethoven's symphonies are all so incredibly good. I'm really having a hard time ranking them, so I won't.


----------



## ChamberNut

Does anyone know if there is a Top 10 or Top something Beethoven (all his works)?

I'd love to see the results of that. It would be hard to come up with that list!


----------



## Guest

ChamberNut said:


> Does anyone know if there is a Top 10 or Top something Beethoven (all his works)?
> 
> I'd love to see the results of that. It would be hard to come up with that list!


Not if you know where to look!

How about this?

1. Symphony No. 9 in D minor "Choral"
2. Symphony No. 5 in C minor
3. String Quartet No. 14 in C sharp minor
4. Symphony No. 3 in E flat major "Eroica"
5. Piano Sonata No. 23 in F minor "Appassionata"
6. Piano Concerto No. 5 in E flat major "Emperor"
7. String Quartet No. 13 in B flat and Grosse Fuge
8. Symphony No. 6 in F major "Pastoral"
9. Piano Sonata No. 32 in C minor, Op. 111
10. Piano Concerto No. 4 in G major


----------



## ChamberNut

Mango said:


> *Not if you know where to look!*
> How about this?
> 
> 1. Symphony No. 9 in D minor "Choral"
> 2. Symphony No. 5 in C minor
> 3. String Quartet No. 14 in C sharp minor
> 4. Symphony No. 3 in E flat major "Eroica"
> 5. Piano Sonata No. 23 in F minor "Appassionata"
> 6. Piano Concerto No. 5 in E flat major "Emperor"
> 7. String Quartet No. 13 in B flat and Grosse Fuge
> 8. Symphony No. 6 in F major "Pastoral"
> 9. Piano Sonata No. 32 in C minor, Op. 111
> 10. Piano Concerto No. 4 in G major


Nice list Mango! Definitely at least 4 or 5 of those would probably be in my Top 10 favorites.

What I meant was - It would be hard to narrow down to 10 from looking at all his great works, and picking 10 while getting a varied repertoire representation (symphony, concerto, chamber etc.)


----------



## Guest

I know exactly what you meant. The list came from another Forum where the task of ranking works by composer was carried out recently. At the end of the day, any such list is based on the personal choice of those involved in the exercise, but I believe this was done with some objectivity in mind, although I wasn't in any involved in it (merely a non-participating observer). 

I think the 1-10 list is pretty good, and I wouldn't quibble with it too much except that I would probably find room for the VC and the Archduke Piano Trio. The ranks for 11-20 are:

11. String Quartet No. 15 in A minor
12. Violin Concerto in D major
13. Symphony No. 7 in A major
14. Piano Trio No. 6 in B flat major “Archduke”
15. Missa Solemnis
16. Piano Sonata No. 29 in B flat “Hammerklavier”
17. Piano Sonata No. 14 in C sharp minor “Moonlight”
18. Violin Sonata No. 9 in A major “Kreutzer”
19. Piano Sonata No. 21 in C major “Waldstein”
20. Cello Sonata No. 3 in A major

As will be seen, Symphony No 2 doesn't appear, and I'm not in the slightest surprised. This symphony is generally considered to be Beethoven's weakest symphony. Personally, I'm not that keen on it as I find it lacklustre. Nor am I keen on No 4.


----------



## Morigan

ChamberNut said:


> Does anyone know if there is a Top 10 or *Top something* Beethoven (all his works)?
> 
> I'd love to see the results of that. It would be hard to come up with that list!


Well, I could easily do a top 500 

But seriously, it would be better to do a top 10 for each composition category...  Of course, all the 9 symphonies would be included. Then you'd have the chamber music top 10, the concertante music top 10, etc.


----------



## Amade Van Haydn

Hi, Kurkikohtaus!



Kurkikohtaus said:


> *Amade*, thanks for your reply. While I respect your personal preference of this piece over the other symphonies, I'm not sure what the "revolutionary aspects" of this piece are.
> 
> I respect the 2nd symphony for a number of things:
> 
> A very difficult and deeply expressive slow introduction
> A second movement that "sounds" like a second mvmt, not always typical for Beethoven
> A scherzo that foreshadows Klangfarbenmelodie by 100 years, but Haydn did this also
> A fun and uplifting finale
> So while I like the piece for the reasons listed above, I'm not sure if these or other elements are truly revolutionary when compared to the 3rd (structure) or 4th (harmony) symphonies.
> 
> _P.S. Nice observation about various Symphony No. 2's in D major!_


We should discuss this in an own thread about this symphony.
Someday I will start one. (Or is there still one?) Meanwhile I recommend you purchasing the Kubelik-CD. In the booklet the "revolutionary aspects" are better discussed than I as layman could write it down here.

@Handel: If you prefer classical style, why is No. 8 on the last rank? 
But thanks for supporting No. 2!

Regards,
AVH.


----------



## Handel

Amade Van Haydn said:


> Hi, Kurkikohtaus!
> 
> We should discuss this in an own thread about this symphony.
> Someday I will start one. (Or is there still one?) Meanwhile I recommend you purchasing the Kubelik-CD. In the booklet the "revolutionary aspects" are better discussed than I as layman could write it down here.
> 
> @Handel: If you prefer classical style, why is No. 8 on the last rank?
> But thanks for supporting No. 2!
> 
> Regards,
> AVH.


Because I like the others more.  (even if this symphony has a classical style).


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

Pete said:


> Who in their right mind places the Ninth in the bottom three?
> 
> I'll do it the jwinter way:
> 
> 9: Reiner/Fricsay/Furtwangler ('42)
> 3: Szell/Klemperer (mono)
> 7: Szell/Kleiber/Reiner
> 6: Bohm/Reiner/Walter (Col)
> 8: Toscanini
> 4: Kleiber
> 5: Kleiber/Toscanini/Szell
> 2: Reiner/Szell
> 1: Reiner


While I agree with the opening sentence, did anyone else catch the irony of this quote coming from the only individual who placed the *5th* in the bottom three?! Okay, my turn:

1) 7- well, Andre Previn agrees with me. I could have worse allies
2) 9- catch me in the right mood and my 1-2 rankings reverse
3) 5- we've heard it dozens of times. I wouldn't mind hearing it hundreds of times
4) 8- didn't get a lot of love in the time of Ludwig van, not getting a lot of love here
5) 3- most seem to rate this higher
6) 2- _fin de siecle_ classicism
7) 6- well, Claude Debussy agrees with me. (You know the rest)
8) 1- the saga begins
9) 4- not persuaded by the advocacy many show for this work


----------



## daytrip202

1) 5th - The first movement of this piece is so overplayed (still brilliant, but overplayed) that there are times in which I only listen to the last three. The last three are so good that even without the famous first movement it is my favorite

2) 7th - Almost as good as the fifth, it took me a while to get into the fourth movement, but the scherzo more than made up for it.

3) 9th - Another piece that suffers from be over played, and frequently played badly. It is still every bit as brilliant as the first two. I have never really appreciated it's first movement like I probably should, although I like it more now than I did upon first listen. The two "fanfares" in the finale have always sounded kind of ackward to me as well. 

4) 3rd - Another brilliant piece. The first three movements are as good as anything he wrote. The Finale always seems like a bit of a let down to me (something That can rarely be said about Beethoven)

5) 4th - Completely overlooked by most people today, if you've never really taken the time to listen to it, do it now.

6) 1st - A great first symphony, melodies from this constantly get stuck in my head.

7) 6th - The sixth is an odd symphony for me. It probably deserves a higher ranking than I gave it. When ever I listen to it though I get bored about half way through. If I survive the boredom, the end catches my interest again. However half the time I just turn it off and move on

8) 8th
9) 2nd - Of the nine, I know these two pieces least, and they could probably be interchanged with eachother right now. I listen and although certainly good, they just don't seem to match up to the quality of the other seven. They are also hurt by being placed so near other great symphonies. The 8th is the middle child between the 7th and 9th who get all the attention. The second gets completely overshadowed by the third.


----------



## opus67

Welcome to the forum, daytrip202.


----------



## Morigan

After hearing the 2nd symphony performed live, I've come to appreciate it alot.

There's also a very good podcast about this overlooked symphony that was recently done by Mr Chris Millard in his "NACOcast series". It's an excellent classical music podcast by 
the way. Here's a link to all episodes:

Here

I encourage you to listen to the latest one about Symphony No. 2 (don't be put off by the cheesy reading of the Heiligenstadt testament during the 2nd movement).


----------



## Lisztfreak

Notice that the most famous Beethoven symphonies are odd-numbered!  

My top-list:

1. Fifth 
2. Seventh
3. Third
4. Ninth
5. Eighth
6. Fourth
7. First
8. Sixth
9. Second

I've heard the No.2 only recently, so it might go up on my list with time.


----------



## opus67

I don't believe I have replied to the main question of this thread, so here goes...

6
5/3
9
7
8
4
2
1


----------



## ChamberNut

My favorite Beethoven symphonies in order:

1 - Symphony No. 9 "Choral"

2 - Symphony No. 7

3 - Symphony No. 3 "Eroica"

4 - Symphony No. 6 "Pastoral"

5 - Symphony No. 5

6 - Symphony No. 8 (this used to be my least favorite Beethoven symphony, but it's grown on me and has risen up in my standings )

7 - Symphony No. 4

8 - Symphony No. 1

9 - Symphony No. 2


Up-to-date for me. Only change was a move up of Symphony no. 8 from 7th to 6th spot.

I've been surprised to see some list the Pastoral 6th symphony so low.


----------



## Rondo

4, 7, 9, 6, 5, 8, 3, 2, 1

Some time ago, I had nos 5 and 9 at the top, but, after hearing some different performances and interpretations others (namely 4, 6 and 7) moved up for me.


----------



## terotero

I think that all of Beethoven's symphonies (other than the first 2), have their stamps of genius. They differ in mood. I would not number them in a list. It is not logical, no one can have a persistent one mood (except of course a psychotic person).
Has anyone heard the 7th performed by Kegel. It is a very interesting performance and for me it put this symphony in a new perspective.


----------



## cjr3559

What the heck, I'll pile on this one:

Of course this is a very difficult decision. I have no special orchestra or conductor preference, though I like Karajan's 1963 recording with Berlin.

Drum roll please:

7, 3, 8, 4, 1, 5, 9, 6, 2 ---

I know, I know... No. 9 is seventh.


----------



## beethoven_fan92

Beethovens symphonies (at least his last ones!), are all really beautiful!!!:
- 3rd "Eroica" 
- 9th (the first movement is beautiful!!!!)
- 5th (the coolest one ;-) )
- 7th (second movement is my favourite... really sad..)
- 6th "Pastoral"
- 8th (a bit humoristic, in a way!!!)
- 4th
- 1st
- 2nd

 me.


----------



## David C Coleman

*Fav. LvB. Symphony*

3rd
6th
9th
5th
7th
4th
1st
2nd
8th


----------



## Morigan

Ah, the poor quartet of Beethoven's 1st, 2nd, 4th and 8th.

I hope no one actually _dislikes_ them, but simply find that the other ones overshadow these symphonies? It also seems like the order or preference among these 4 vary a lot from person to person. As for myself, I think I would place them all at the same level.

All of Beethoven's symphonies are marvelous!


----------



## Kevin Acker

No one has gotten it quite right yet. 

The answer key:
3,9,5,7,6,8,4,1,2

Have to put #3 at the top. Nothing like it had ever been written before (which I guess you could say about many of his symphonies, I suppose, but compare #3 to late Mozart, for example, and you know the kind of genius we are dealing with).


----------



## Kurkikohtaus

Kevin Acker said:


> ... compare #3 to late Mozart, for example, and you know the kind of genius we are dealing with.


Too much emphasis is placed on this evolutionary concept in music, that something new = something good, that this-leads-to-that-leads-to-this.

While composers certainly did not write music in a historical vacuum and were influenced by their predecessors, it is also important to consider that they did not write in a socio-economic vacuum and wrote music in a specific place and time for specific purposes. By this reasoning, Beethoven's music in my opinion is not a reaction to high-classicism, but a product of the specific socio-political and economic environment in which he was producing his work.


----------



## Rondo

Kurkikohtaus said:


> ...Beethoven's music in my opinion is not a reaction to high-classicism, but a product of the specific socio-political and economic environment in which he was producing his work.


And what better symphony to express that than the 3rd!


----------



## Kurkikohtaus

My rant in my previous post was not against Eroica, which happens to be my favourite as well. I simply feel that comparing it to Mozart as a point of underlying its greatness is irrelevant.


----------



## Kevin Acker

Kurkikohtaus said:


> My rant in my previous post was not against Eroica, which happens to be my favourite as well. I simply feel that comparing it to Mozart as a point of underlying its greatness is irrelevant.


A fair point. I simply used Mozart as an example, though. I agree that being innovative isn't the only measure of a work, but I do find it to be an important one.


----------



## Gustav

i was such an idiot 3 years ago, why did i start this stupid thread? "Best Beethoven Symphonies" what a hilariously idiotic concept.


----------



## Kurkikohtaus

Kevin Acker said:


> I agree that being innovative isn't the only measure of a work, but I do find it to be an important one.


There we can agree, innovation prevents music from becoming derivative and uninspired.


----------



## RebLem

9--Zander, Tennstedt/LPO, Szell/Cleveland, Toscanini/NBC, Furtwangler 3/1942
6--Szell, Solti, Monteux
5--Zander, C. Kleiber, Reiner
7--Solti, Zander, Mravinsky, C. Kleiber
3--Keilberth, Furtwangler 12/44, Furtwangler 1952?, Karajan 1962, Klemperer
4--Klemperer, Monteux
8--Szell, Solti
1--Solti
2--Solti


----------



## badenbaden

Tie for first place - 3 & 9
then 6,8,7,1,5,4,2


----------



## hsparki

*Be happy with the 3rd movement of Sym. No. 9!*

9 Karl Bohm('70s, the best 3rd movement), Fricsay, Karajan, Abbado
6 Karl Bohm
5 Carlos Kleiber
3 ?(best recording not yet known to me, still searching)
7 Carlos Kleiber
4
8
2
1


----------



## Rondo

1 Walter
2-3 Bernstein
4 Walter
5 Kleiber (Just heard the Vanska/Minnesota performance, and it is certainly in competition with this one!)
6 Walter
7 Bernstein
8 (no real preference)
9 Solti


----------



## World Violist

I was never too fond of the Ninth. It really is ingenious, and I respect it very deeply; I just don't see what all the hullabaloo is about...

1) 3
2) 7
3) 9
4) 5
5) 4
6) 1
7) 6
8) 8
9) 2

That's my list. I just got Toscanini's cycle in the mail a couple of weeks ago, so I'll come back to this one, too.


----------



## BAWIG05

Todd said:


> Interesting lists, but the _correct_ one is as follows:
> 
> 3
> 9
> 6
> 7
> 5
> 4
> 8
> 1
> 2


Correct? This is music, friend. Nobody's right.

9
3
1
6
5
7
8
4
2


----------



## World Violist

I like the Sixth.

3
6
7
9
5
1
4
8
2


----------



## SamGuss

1) 4th
2) 3rd
3) 9th
4) 5th
5) 6th
6) 8th
7) 2nd
8) 1st
9) 7th


----------



## jhar26

1) 9th
2) 3th
3) 5th
4) 6th
5) 7th
6) 8th
7) 4th
8) 2th
9) 1st


----------



## World Violist

3
5
7
6
9
1
4
8
2

I just started collecting Osmo Vanska's cycle (4 and 5 in the mail right now; the fifth should be intense!). I have high hopes that it'll be every bit as great as reviews have been, and am sure they will be; Osmo's Sibelius that I've heard is absolutely stunning.


----------



## SalieriIsInnocent

7th
9th 
6th
5th
3rd
4th
8th
2nd
1st
all from Walter Weller


----------



## David C Coleman

David C Coleman said:


> 3rd
> 6th
> 9th
> 5th
> 7th
> 4th
> 1st
> 2nd
> 8th


Actually one of may favourite LvB symphonies, is no. 4, because it is such a perfectly proportioned 4 movement classical work. I know it lacks the towering intensity of it's immediate neighbours, but that's what's so appealing about no.4, It's pure Beethoven at his most natural, there doesn't seem to be a striving, music is flowing, dare a I say it, Ludwig seems content with life!!... But there is always that hint of drama and power which sets him apart from his older contemporaries, Mozart and Haydn..


----------



## themusicismymaster

9th
5th
6th
3rd
2nd
8th
7th
1st
4th


----------



## Zombo

3

and then the rest.


----------



## World Violist

Zombo said:


> 3
> 
> and then the rest.


hahaha... That's almost my philosophy on the Beethoven symphonies!


----------



## Atabey

-7th (Riccardo Muti & Philadelphia Orchestra)
-9th (Karl Böhm & Wiener Philharmoniker (1970s))
-5th (Wilhelm Furtwangler & Berliner Philharmoniker)
-3rd (Otto Klemperer & Philharmonia Orchestra)
-6th (Wilhelm Furtwangler & Wiener Philharmoniker)
-2nd(Karl Böhm & Wiener Philharmoniker)
-8th (Riccardo Muti & Philadelphia Orchestra)
-1st (Wilhelm Furtwangler & Wiener Philharmoniker)
-4th (Karl Böhm & Wiener Philharmoniker)


----------



## jurianbai

1. absolutely Symph No.5
this is the most proud classical piece that I will bring my non classical or even non musical friend to watch. 

2. Symph no.6 - no.5 is too bombastic but this one is my most favorite to enjoy.
3. Symph no.3 
4. Symph no.9 - mainly because of the fourth movement and the famous choral tune.
5. Symph no.4
6. Symph no.8

and for #1,#2,#7 has little memory on that.


----------



## LindenLea

6 ‘Pastoral’
3 ‘Eroica’
9 ‘Choral’
8
5
7
4
1
2

For my money even the least of Beethoven’s symphonies is light-years ahead of the greatest symphonies by virtually any other composer, so by relegating the Beethoven 2nd to ninth place should not be taken as dissatisfaction with it! I have owned the Boehm and Karajan (1977) sets, and also numerous LP’s/Cd's of all the classic Klemperer recordings, for over 30 years, and have never heard anything to improve on them, so I have never really added to my collection.


----------



## Atabey

Yeah.Böhm and Klemperer shatters my earth with their Beethoven conducting...


----------



## World Violist

I'm not at all familiar with Böhm or Klemperer or Karajan in their Beethoven sets, but I'm very content with the Osmo Vanska/Minnesota cycle thus far.

Are those other three conductors really romantic/heavy in Beethoven? I haven't heard much in the way of that sort of interpretation, so I might actually look into it. If not, I'm sure that Furtwangler would fit that description quite nicely from what I've heard.


----------



## Atabey

Böhm and Klemperer are heavy.They are emotional but never a bit sentimental.Karajan is a romantic at his own style.He is not at all heavy.Rarely people conducts as fast as he does.And Furtwangler?.. We need another thread to talk about his Beethoven conducting...


----------



## Bach

9
3
5
7
6
4
8
2
1

The ninth is surely the greatest - it's a highly misunderstood work but immeasurably powerful.


----------



## David C Coleman

Nr. 9 still never fails to amaze me every time I listen to it. In it's scope, vision and power. Hugely influencial, Just think for an audience of the early 1820's, this must have been such a towering piece to try and comprehend. How Beethoven pushed musical language along in his relatively short career...


----------



## Bach

It has a similar effect on me. As with most late Beethoven, you can listen and listen, time after time and something new and wonderful can be gleamed every time.


----------



## mueske

9th
8th
5th
4th
7th
6th
3rd
1st
2nd

I'm sorry to break the trend, I'm not a huge fan of his third.


----------



## Edward Elgar

3rd
5th
6th
7th
Then the rest


----------



## tahnak

*Beethoven Symphonies in order of Ascendancy*

1. Unfinished sketch of the Tenth Symphony
2. Symphony No. 1 in C Major
3. Symphony No. 2 in D Major
4. Symphony No. 4 in B Flat Major
5. Symphony No. 8 in F Major
6. Symphony No. 7 in A Major
7. 'Eroica' Symphony No. 3 in E Flat Major
8. 'Fate' Symphony No. 5 in C Minor
9. 'Pastoral' Symphony No. 6 in F major
10. 'Choral' symphony No. 9 in D Minor


----------



## Lang

I always felt that the odd-numbered symphonies were superior to the even-numbered ones.


----------



## Rondo

Lang said:


> I always felt that the odd-numbered symphonies were superior to the even-numbered ones.


That's a pretty bold statement. 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 vs 2, 4, 6, 8.

However, the odd numbers do include the _majority_ of the most-noted symphonies: 3, 5, 7 & 9. However, 6 is also there. But...it's Ludwig's vacation work and has 5 movements instead of 4.


----------



## meschman

*best beethoven symphonies*

first place : 3-4-5-6-7-8-9
second place : 1-2

best recording :

gardiner/orr
jochum/concergebouw
reiner/chicago
toscanini/nbc

all loved equally well!


----------



## Lang

Rondo said:


> That's a pretty bold statement. 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 vs 2, 4, 6, 8.
> 
> However, the odd numbers do include the _majority_ of the most-noted symphonies: 3, 5, 7 & 9. However, 6 is also there. But...it's Ludwig's vacation work and has 5 movements instead of 4.


The sixth is not one of my favourite symphonies. And the first, while it is quite lightweight and simple, is a perfect example of a classical symphony.


----------



## d.kowlesar

9th(Furtwangler1951 Bayreuth) ... that's it


----------



## Atabey

7th 
9th
and than the rest.


----------



## Tapkaara

His best is the 5th, but greatest is the 9th.


----------



## Rondo

I'm probably the only one, but I believe his 4th deserves just as much praise (if not more) than most of the others. In a way, it reminds me of Tchaikovsky's 4th (which I also call a favorite among its respective set).


----------



## mueske

Rondo said:


> I'm probably the only one, but I believe his 4th deserves just as much praise (if not more) than most of the others. In a way, it reminds me of Tchaikovsky's 4th (which I also call a favorite among its respective set).


Nope, I also like his fourth more than his sixth and seventh, don't remember how I put it in my list, but that's my opinion now.

Also the eighth, why is it generally ranked so low? I find it a great piece that showcases Beethoven's creativity in his development of themes.


----------



## Conor71

7th
3rd
5th
9th
6th
4th
2nd
1st
8th


----------



## Sid James

I've heard all of his symphonies, but am not really that intimately familiar with all of them. All I can say, is that the one that made the most impact by far is the *Eroica*. It's one of his most political works, but is also about humanity's quest for freedom and justice (big ambitions, but Beethoven really pulls it off here). The *Pastoral*, for its suggestions of impressionism (eg. the birdsong & the storm) would also be high up on my list, and I also like the jocularity and lightweightness of the _*8th*_. Next would be the *7th* for its sublime slow movement alone, and then the _*Choral*_ for its sheer scope, majesty and profundity. *Then the rest* & probably the last one would be the *5th*, as it is played so often live and on radio, that I'm kind of sick of it.

So here's my list, of sorts:

3 'Eroica'
6 'Pastoral'
8
7
9 'Choral'
1,2,4 (in no particular order)
5


----------



## TresPicos

Here's my list: 

6, 5, 1
7, 4
2, 9
3, 8

As I see it, he first wrote a beautiful symphony in Haydn/Mozart style (1), then struggled and experimented (2, 3) to find (4) his own style and perfect it (5, 6). He managed to write one more decent symphony (7), before he got too disoriented (8) and deaf (9). 

I don't get the Eroica at all. To me, it sounded like 100 different sequences written by 20 different people and put together in the wrong order. 

And #8 was just bizarre...


----------



## Metalheadwholovesclasical

Gustav said:


> My rank of my favorite BEethoven symphonies
> 
> 1 Symphony #5
> 2 Symphony #3 Eroica
> 3 Symphony #9 choral
> 4 Symphony #6 pastroal
> 5 symphony #1
> 6 Symphony #7
> 7 symphony #2
> 8 symphony #4
> 9 symphony #8
> 
> What are your ranks?


1.) Symphony # 9 
2.) Symphony # 6 
3.) Symphony # 5 
4.) Symphony # 3
5.) Symphony # 1
6.) Symphony # 2
7.) Symphony # 7
8.) Symphony # 4
9.) Symphony # 8


----------



## Aramis

TresPicos said:


> I don't get the Eroica at all. To me, it sounded like 100 different sequences written by 20 different people and put together in the wrong order.


Same here. Too bad, as Bonaparte fan I would like to enjoy musical work that is (or was) dedicated to him.


----------



## Lisztfreak

Time to be totally open:

Symphony No.1 is just a Mozart-Haydnesque study with few personal touches, much like the first two piano concertos.

Symphony No.2 also. The Scherzo, however,_ is _memorable.đ

...the first two being largely forgettable, we proceed...

Symphony No.3 is powerful, masculine, exciting. Very influential and groundbreaking. The work is patchy, however, and the Finale, even though very emotional, is not of the same (quite high) quality as the other movements.

Symphony No.4 is very refined and gentle. It is also quite pallid.

Symphony No.5 is a remarkable tour-de-force, the most compact and perfect of them all. It is overplayed, though, to the point of prostitution.

Symphony No.6 is generally very boring. There are beautiful and colourful moments (Pletnev conducts it excellently), but I start yawning halfway through.

Symphony No.7 is rhythmic and interesting. All movements yield their special charms. Unbalanced it is, however, because the fast tempi prevail greatly.

Symphony No.8 is fun. But it is a divertimento.

Symphony No.9 is the greatest and as all-embracing as Mahler. The message of the work is also sublime - hard to keep the tears from flowing in the Finale, or in the Adagio too. However, the Scherzo fails to keep my attention throughout, and the Finale is just a bit too long. The 'Turkish' variation is a bit ridiculous, it is.

1. 5th
2. 7th
3. 9th
4. 3rd
5. 8th
6. 4th
7. 6th
8. 2nd
9. 1st

The positions nos. 7 and 9 are interchangeable. And definitely the even numbers pale next to the odd ones.


----------



## wolf

1. 3rd
2. 9th
3. 6th
4. 8th
5. 7th
6. 4th
7. 2nd
8. 5th
9. 1st

5th is downright hysteric in the last mvt, boring in the 3rd mvt, not too fun with 1st mvt having heard it a mill times.

9th is breathtaking in the beginning but long parts are too busily instrumntated. 

7th 1mvt is superb but not the 2nd -although the ordinarys like it. And it gets tedious.

6th is good from start to finish with not one weak link. Mvt for mvt its getting better.

8th is shamefully neglected, listen to it, who cares if it is a lighter world in it?

3rd isnt too good in the last 2 mvts - but mvt 1 and mvt 2 are enough. The Eroica rules and wins anyway.


----------



## starry

1st is a lovely straightforward piece. The first two mvts have stuck in my memory the most, but like it all of course.

2nd I like less though it has some exciting things, particularly in the first two mvts of it which are fine.

3rd First movement is gigantic and powerful and the slow movement has great drama and feeling.

4th I might have heard this the fewest times out of all of them so hard to give comments with my memory of it. The slow intro to the first movement is probably my main memory of it though, mysterious. The use of percussion in the slow movement I remember too.

5th I remember growing to love the triumphant finale in the past and the great transition to it. The first movement of course is rightly famed.

6th This grew to be my favourite. So untypical for him as without the heroic gestures really but somehow that makes it even more personal. Largely perfect piece, with a satisfying finale.

7th Nice big piece, another memorable slow intro. The last mvt of course is incredible.

8th The first mvt I remember liking the most really, the development, recap and coda eg.

9th The first mvt of this I've loved. Which is the better - this first mvt or that of the 3rd? Both are gigantic and epic. Really that has always been my favourite part, but the last mvt I've always tended to like the least.


----------



## starry

Kurkikohtaus said:


> Too much emphasis is placed on this evolutionary concept in music, that something new = something good, that this-leads-to-that-leads-to-this.


This is so true! Just judge the music on its own merit and not where some musicologist wants to put it in the history of music.


----------



## Dim7

Why there is no love for Eroica's finale? It has beautiful themes and brilliant uplifting conclusion.

Eroica is clearly my favorite - I would say its not only my favorite Beethoven symphony but my favorite symphony in general. I think it's actually less "heroic" than say fifth; compared to it it is more wistful and thoughtful, though it has intense and energetic moments too. 

Fifth is instantly appealing but I think I'm bored of it already even though I have listened to Eroica much more. Seventh is fun though perhaps a bit trivial compared to his third, fifth or ninth. Sixth just bores me. I really like first movement of the ninth, it has cool anticipating, "doomsday" feeling, scherzo is ok, the slow movement is a bit boring. I have problems with the fourth movement because like many people I don't like classical solo vocals, they sound corny and annoying. The choral singing is fine though. I haven't listened very much his other symphonies.


----------



## starry

Cmaj7 said:


> Why there is no love for Eroica's finale? It has beautiful themes and brilliant uplifting conclusion.
> 
> Eroica is clearly my favorite - I would say its not only my favorite Beethoven symphony but my favorite symphony in general. I think it's actually less "heroic" than say fifth; compared to it it is more wistful and thoughtful, though it has intense and energetic moments too.
> 
> Fifth is instantly appealing but I think I'm bored of it already even though I have listened to Eroica much more. Seventh is fun though perhaps a bit trivial compared to his third, fifth or ninth. Sixth just bores me. I really like first movement of the ninth, it has cool anticipating, "doomsday" feeling, scherzo is ok, the slow movement is a bit boring. I have problems with the fourth movement because like many people I don't like classical solo vocals, they sound corny and annoying. The choral singing is fine though. I haven't listened very much his other symphonies.


For me the most consistently enjoyable Beethoven symphonies are probably 1,3,5,6. The last movement of the third has some spine tingling moments for sure. Maybe the main theme is a bit on the light side though, this might be highlighted even more because it follows a scherzo. I don't really understand anyone who says the 6th is boring, except perhaps they heard a performance that was too slow and lugubrious and without the freshness it deserves.


----------



## Dim7

Well I don't think it's the performers fault that I don't like the sixth - the word "pastoral" translates to "boring" usually anyways.

The only movement that is a bit mediocre in Eroica is in my opinion the scherzo. Now that I think of it none of the Beethoven's scherzos are too spectacular.... but then again I'm not big fan of scherzos in general. The slow movement is Beethoven's best one, though 5th has a gorgeous slow movement too.
The only problem with the finale IMO is the too abrupt shift from the hopeless quiet minor moment to the triumphant end. Fast shift would be okay, but there should be somekind of glue there at least; like quiet major, perhaps dominant chords gradually but fast getting louder.


----------



## starry

Cmaj7 said:


> Well I don't think it's the performers fault that I don't like the sixth - the word "pastoral" translates to "boring" usually anyways.
> 
> The only movement that is a bit mediocre in Eroica is in my opinion the scherzo. Now that I think of it none of the Beethoven's scherzos are too spectacular.... but then again I'm not big fan of scherzos in general. The slow movement is Beethoven's best one, though 5th has a gorgeous slow movement too.
> The only problem with the finale IMO is the too abrupt shift from the hopeless quiet minor moment to the triumphant end. Fast shift would be okay, but there should be somekind of glue there at least; like quiet major, perhaps dominant chords gradually but fast getting louder.


I remember someone saying about Beethoven (not here) that he doesn't always use glue (as you call it) unlike Mozart. The end of the Eroica may contain some bluster, but it's up to the performer to make it convincing. The third movement could be accused of being the least substantial but only because it's the shortest, I like the contrast to the slow movement and it seems to succeed pretty much in what it does. The third movement of the seventh though is probably the weakest part of that symphony for me, the material maybe isn't as interesting as in the rest of the piece.

I think to say anything 'pastoral' is nearly always boring is far too sweeping a statement. Nature itself after all is part of what we are. And the very lyricism of that piece makes it personal. I like Toscanini and the BBC Symphony Orchestra, though the sound is old.


----------



## Mirror Image

Cmaj7 said:


> Well I don't think it's the performers fault that I don't like the sixth - the word "pastoral" translates to "boring" usually anyways.




This is such an absurd statement. Yeah, Beethoven's "Pastoral" symphony is boring. I'm sure Beethoven when writing this symphony thought "Okay, now to compose something boring."

Such an ill-informed statement if I've ever read one.


----------



## Dim7

Haha, I didn't literally mean that composers who decide to compose a "pastoral" work think "this is supposed to be boring music", that would make absolutely no sense, I meant that if a musical piece is described as "pastoral" it probably means that it is boring to _me_.


----------



## Mirror Image

Cmaj7 said:


> Haha, I didn't literally mean that composers who decide to compose a "pastoral" work think "this is supposed to be boring music", that would make absolutely no sense, I meant that if a musical piece is described as "pastoral" it probably means that it is boring to _me_.


I think you missed my joke, but that's okay, because you're wrong anyway.

People who describe something as "boring" means that they can't appreciate what it takes to enjoy a piece that's more intricate and thought-provoking. Something doesn't have to go 900 mph to be good.


----------



## terotero

*7th is not trivial*

hello,
Just couldn't ignore some comment that the 7th was "trivial". I think it is one of the emotionally monumental symphonies, it just needs a bit of deeper listening.
And please why can't anyone take the 3rd out of context of Bonaparte......he is not part of it. Can't we just appreciate the music for its own merits?


----------



## Dim7

Mirror Image said:


> I think you missed my joke, but that's okay, because you're wrong anyway.
> 
> People who describe something as "boring" means that they can't appreciate what it takes to enjoy a piece that's more intricate and thought-provoking. Something doesn't have to go 900 mph to be good.


Eroica's second movement doesn't "go 900 mph" and I just mentioned liking it. Schoenberg's Verklärte Nacht doesn't "go 900 mph" and it's one of my favorite classical pieces. It is true that I usually prefer faster movements to slower ones but I do realize that there is more good music than just the loud-and-fast stuff, and I like slow movements more than scherzos with often sound out of place in otherwise "serious" symphony.

And if you did realize that I was just expressing my opinion, then what sense does it make to call it "ill-informed"? How can anyone have "ill-informed" opinions?


----------



## Dim7

terotero said:


> hello,
> Just couldn't ignore some comment that the 7th was "trivial". I think it is one of the emotionally monumental symphonies, it just needs a bit of deeper listening.
> And please why can't anyone take the 3rd out of context of Bonaparte......he is not part of it. Can't we just appreciate the music for its own merits?


"Trivial" (though it was COMPARED to 3,5,9) was a bad choice of word, "lighthearted" would be better. I do think it kinda lacks the depth and epic feeling of symphonies 3,5,9; it seems to be mostly based on catchy melodies. The lightheartedness has the advantage that it is easy to like on the first listening but the disadvantage is that on relistens I at least don't really find anything new from the symphony, something I'd have missed on the first time.


----------



## starry

Cmaj7 said:


> And if you did realize that I was just expressing my opinion, then what sense does it make to call it "ill-informed"? How can anyone have "ill-informed" opinions?


Everyone has a right to an opinion, it's just that you didn't give much reasoning behind it. The 6th symphony is boring compared to what? Is it all equally boring or did you like some part? Which performances have you heard? Why do you judge all pieces labeled 'pastoral' together? I also found your comments on scherzos a bit general as well. If you like livelier music maybe you would prefer scherzos to minuets? And one movement of a piece is meant to fit into the overall flow of the piece not just looked at on it's own. A scherzo is probably more 'modern' (or fashionable) in it's sound to people than a minuet, some of this is about adjusting to the style of a particular period of music anyway.


----------



## Dim7

I think I'm not much into "relaxing" music in general and that's a word people might use to describe the sixth symphony. The slow movements for me usually have to be emotinally intense or scary/mysterious or something like that.

The program describes the symphony actually pretty well; unfortunately I find the program extremely uninspiring. Nothing exciting about the countryside...


----------



## Mirror Image

Cmaj7 said:


> I think I'm not much into "relaxing" music in general and that's a word people might use to describe the sixth symphony. The slow movements for me usually have to be emotinally intense or scary/mysterious or something like that.
> 
> The program describes the symphony actually pretty well; unfortunately I find the program extremely uninspiring. Nothing exciting about the countryside...


It's a shame you dismiss Beethoven's "Pastoral Symphony." I think it's a beautiful piece of work. No it's not in-your-face or furious, but it is a very melodic piece.

I suppose I can see why you wouldn't like it that much, but I think it displays another side of Beethoven's music. A side, for that short time, that was at peace with something, which in this case it was nature.


----------



## Dim7

It's ironic that I chose Cmaj7 as my nick. Maj7 chords are so pleasant, dreamy and calm; yet here I'm always complaining how everything is too calm and peaceful for my taste  Dim7 would've probably fitted better!


----------



## Mirror Image

Cmaj7 said:


> And if you did realize that I was just expressing my opinion, then what sense does it make to call it "ill-informed"? How can anyone have "ill-informed" opinions?


I used the word "ill-informed," because as human beings we all have "jumped the gun" or spoken too soon about a piece of music we said we didn't like, but ended up loving. I'm certainly guilty of this as much as the next person.

I can't tell you how many times I've dismissed a composer because I didn't "like" his music at the time. This has happened to me several times and the reason why it happened is because I didn't spend any time with the music at all. I just heard one piece and said "That stinks. I'll never listen to that again." I've learned my lesson about this, but perhaps you'll never like Beethoven's 6th and that's perfectly fine, but I think, in time, you can learn to appreciate it.


----------



## JoeGreen

I really love the 3rd Symphony.


----------



## starry

Cmaj7 said:


> I think I'm not much into "relaxing" music in general and that's a word people might use to describe the sixth symphony. The slow movements for me usually have to be emotinally intense or scary/mysterious or something like that.
> 
> The program describes the symphony actually pretty well; unfortunately I find the program extremely uninspiring. Nothing exciting about the countryside...


I wouldn't be too concerned with the program of the piece, it's about general feelings rather than specific events. It never really needed a program. There's a dance in it, but then there is a 'dance' in every symphony of the period, the slow movement 'flows' but then so do many others in the period.

Maybe not all the symphony is relaxing, the so-called 'storm' section for instance is extremely dark and dramatic. It could be described as intense. The dance before that is again very lively, just like some other dances in his symphonies. Also a good performance of this piece can make other parts of this symphony taut and intense, and can also give mystery to parts of it (such as the slow movement, and the last movement with it's great ending for example).


----------



## Dim7

I'm not trying to emphasize the program really, my point was that given the uninspiring program it isn't surprising that the music is too uninteresting. It's not that I decided to dislike the work just because it is supposed to be a "pastoral" symphony. But think about it; calling the ninth or fifth symphony "pastoral" wouldn't make any sense would it? Wouldn't fit at all, while the name does fit the sixth symphony. So I do think the name tells something about the work. It is true that music cannot express any setting, landscape, event or story directly; it instead expresses the mood and emotions people usually associate with them. 6th can evoke countryside or something else that we associate with similar emotions, but it cannot have just anything as its program.


----------



## starry

Cmaj7 said:


> I'm not trying to emphasize the program really, my point was that given the uninspiring program it isn't surprising that the music is too uninteresting. It's not that I decided to dislike the work just because it is supposed to be a "pastoral" symphony. But think about it; calling the ninth or fifth symphony "pastoral" wouldn't make any sense would it? Wouldn't fit at all, while the name does fit the sixth symphony. So I do think the name tells something about the work. It is true that music cannot express any setting, landscape, event or story directly; it instead expresses the mood and emotions people usually associate with them. 6th can evoke countryside or something else that we associate with similar emotions, but it cannot have just anything as its program.


It can mean different things to different people, different performances might reflect this. So it doesn't have to be about birds, village dancing or shepherds. It could be seen - for example - as a kind of spiritual journey. The finale isn't obviously as lively as most symphonies of the period, but I like that it is different. It reflects the formal symphonic invention of some composers like Haydn perhaps. I wouldn't compare this symphony to any other one Beethoven did, it's completely different.


----------



## Cortision

My Order at the moment: 7, 5, 9, 4, 6, 3, 8, 2, 1

I love the seventh, the second movement especially. The harmonies are breathtaking. 
The fifth symphony, however, I find more satisfying than the seventh from the point of view that it seems so perfect and compact, as though nothing is wasted (This even despite the famous often repeated four-note motif, and I think you all know of what I speak).

It seems a shame to relegate the ninth to third. The electrifying first movement is my favourite, and I love the joyfulness of the finale. And then there is that frightful chord that makes me jump out of my skin every time. An awful sound it is but so right!

And all the other ones are great too, even the first and second, which most people wouldn't rate as highly. And the fact that one and the same composer could write the lovely pastoral symphony as well as the defiantly victorious fifth symphony and the intense ninth says a lot for that composer's genius.

By the way, I like Beethoven's stuff.


----------



## maestro267

Difficult...

1. No. 7
2. No. 5
3. No. 9
4. No. 6
5. No. 1
6. No. 2
7. No. 8
8. No. 3
9. No. 4


----------



## nickgray

In no particular order:

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9


----------



## Somnifer

9 - 3 - 6 - 5 - 7 - 8 - 1 - 2 - 4.


----------



## Ben

nickgray said:


> In no particular order:
> 
> 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9


Exactly!


----------



## Ravellian

As historically important as the ninth is, I think it's a bit overrated as to how profound it is musically. After the introduction, the first movement's themes are just boring.. Same with the third movement; Beethoven did much better with ornamental variation pieces, just look at the second movement of the Appassionata. And the second movement has fun themes, but it drags on way too long. Of course, the last movement pulls it all together, but was it all worth it? Anyways..

1. No. 3 in Eb, "Eroica"
2. No. 5 in Cm
3. No. 7 in A
4. No. 6 in F "Pastorale"
5. No. 9 in Dm "Choral"
6. No. 8 in F
7. No. 4 in Bb
8. No. 1 in C
9. No. 2 in D


----------



## P The D

I have counted up the results of 48 lists in this thread. Asigning the highest ranked symphony a score of nine & the lowest ranked a score of one. Only lists with all nine symphonies were counted. Here is what I got...

1st Symphony: 119
2nd Symphony: 103
3rd Symphony: 338
4th Symphony: 185
5th Symphony: 306
6th Symphony: 268
7th Symphony: 301
8th Symphony: 181
9th Symphony: 345

The 2nd & 8th Symphonies got no first place rankings. The 6th recieved only two first place rankings while the 4th recieved three. The 3rd symphony got 11 first place nods while the 9th symphony was ranked first on a total of 16 lists.

The 1st symphony was ranked last 17 times, the 2nd symphony ranked last on 19 occasions. The 9th symphony got two last place ratings, the 3rd & 6th symphonies were never ranked last.


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## nuimos

Hi.
Beethoven, it seems, will never be a name forgotten. His name remains highly revered in the world of classical music all over the world. His contributions to the symphony have influenced the many composers following his death.
i am very happy to see this forum.

Thank you .

nuimos.

[Link Removed]


----------



## Yoshi

1- 9th Symphony
2- 3rd Symphony
3- 7th Symphony
4- 5th Symphony
5- 6th Symphony
6- 8th Symphony
7- 1st Symphony
8- 4th Symphony
9- 2nd Symphony

I love them all anyway.


----------



## Bobotox

The best symphony of the master would be the the 8th. A very charming piece and well put together. Here are the runner ups. 

3
4
6
1
2
7
5
9 ( His most overrated work.)


----------



## JAKE WYB

Strangely given the 9ths huge popularity it was the one that i needed a while to appreciate most - but now i feel it is too much of a leviathan to put underneath the rest as it is seems overwhelmingly to be a master work even after a great deal of suspicion and scrutiny on my part previously- 

in order my preferences are - 

9
7
8
5
6
4

rest im indifferent to.


----------



## Lukecash12

*1*- no 8
*2*- no 9
*3*- no 6
*4*- no 3


----------



## The Cosmos

5
7 (yeah, those Kleiber recordings are sooo awesome!)
9/6 (tied )
3
8


----------



## Cpt. Jack Sparrow

Hi

I'm new to classical music but already a great admirer of Beethoven. My list:

7.
Especially the 1. and 2. movement. Some of the best music i've ever heard 

5.
Especially the 1. movement (no surprise here  ).

3.
Falls far behind the other two, but i still enjoy it very much 

9. 
My opinion: The work of a complete madman. Monstrous and insane. 

6.
I'm not a great fan of programm music, but since this ist half a symphonie and only half a programm piece, it works for me 

4.
Nothing special - for Beethoven 

8. 
Stand's in the Shadow of the 7. and 9.

2.
Solid, but nothing special.

1.
Not heard so far

All my recordings, except the 9., are played by the New York Philharmonic under Bernstein (the 60's recordings from the "Bernstein Century" on Sony Classical). The 9. is played by the Berlin Philharmonic under Karajan (DGG, from the early 60's).


----------



## SalieriIsInnocent

I bought a Box set of Daniel Barenboim conducting the symphonies so now I have changed my list a little

*9.* Weller (John Tomlinson in the _O freunde_ of the 4th movement was in my opinion the best. I would kill to hear Samuel Ramey do this) 
*7. *Barenboim
*6. *Weller
*5. *Barenboim
*3. *Solti
*8. *Barenboim
*4. *Weller
*2. *Barenboim
*1. *Barenboim

The uncompleted 10th symphony goes out to Walter Weller because it is the only box set I own that has the 10th.


----------



## terotero

Bobotox, give me a break!!!
you dislike the 9th because it is overrated?
Hey anyone thinks that a masterpiece should be dropped out of taste because so other people already like it?
Doesn't seem logic. However there are 2 other great symphonies that are, in my opinion, "underrated" namely the 4th and particularly the 7th


----------



## terotero

Salieri, go for Harnoncourt's set...excellent sound and performance although different from the standard Karajan sets


----------



## mr.matador

I'm new to this forum and to the pleasure of classical music in general and so I do not feel that I am ready to rate Beethoven's symphonies. 

In order for Beethoven himself to have some input I would like to mention that at one point in the summer of 1817 Beethoven was in a conversation with the poet, Christian Kuffner who asked him what his favourite symphony was and Beethoven replied that it was the "Eroica". By 1817 Beethoven had composed all the symphonies but the ninth. 

I'm very much enjoying my time here and am learning alot from reading the posts.


----------



## audiophilia

Adore them all. But for fun:

7, 3, 4, 5, 9, 6, 1, 2, 8


----------



## SalieriIsInnocent

terotero said:


> Salieri, go for Harnoncourt's set...excellent sound and performance although different from the standard Karajan sets


I shall definitely keep it in mind. You can never have to many Beethoven recordings.


----------



## Argus

1st - 6
2nd - 9
3rd - 5 
4th - 3
5th - 7

The remaining symphonies are hard to decide upon a definitive order.

The 6th is the first symphony I can remember seeing performed on TV and actually watching all the way through. I think it was because parts of it reminded me of the Rupert the Bear theme tune. It is definitely underrated in my opinion.

I really tried to like the 5th as much all the way through, as the 1st movement is infathomable genius with a motif only paralleled in memorability by Smoke on the Water, but as a whole the work is _relatively_ disappointing.


----------



## nickgray

terotero said:


> go for Harnoncourt's set


Errr, dunno, I'd go for Norrington, Mackerras and Paavo Jarvi. All three are chamber orchestra versions, Norrington being as true to the original score as possible, Mackerras successfully combines both 'old' and 'new' approaches and Jarvi simply kicks some major *** with his Beethoven.


----------



## Artemis

Argus said:


> 1st - 6
> 2nd - 9
> 3rd - 5
> 4th - 3
> 5th - 7
> 
> The remaining symphonies are hard to decide upon a definitive order.
> 
> *The 6th* is the first symphony I can remember seeing performed on TV and actually watching all the way through. I think it was because parts of it reminded me of the Rupert the Bear theme tune. *It is definitely underrated in my opinion.*
> 
> I really tried to like the 5th as much all the way through, as the 1st movement is infathomable genius with a motif only paralleled in memorability by Smoke on the Water, but as a whole the work is _relatively_ disappointing.


Beethoven's Symphony No 6 underrated? How did you work that one out? This is one of the most highly rated orchestral works ever. It is the No 1 symphony as listed on the UK's Classic FM annual listener poll, and this has been the situation for years. On the recent Australian ABC FM (see relevant thread) poll it's listed as the third favourite. There are currently about 190 separate recordings of this work. One thing that can be safely said is that no way is it underrated.


----------



## Argus

Artemis said:


> Beethoven's Symphony No 6 underrated? How did you work that one out? This is one of the most highly rated orchestral works ever. It is the No 1 symphony as listed on the UK's Classic FM annual listener poll, and this has been the situation for years. On the recent Australian ABC FM (see relevant thread) poll it's listed as the third favourite. There are currently about 190 separate recordings of this work. One thing that can be safely said is that no way is it underrated.


Maybe I should reword my statement. Obviosly the 6th is not underrated in comparison with *all* symphonies ever written, but compared to Beethovens own symphonies it is more often than not ranked below the 9th, 5th, 3rd, even the 7th and 8th by critics and musicians.

I suppose you are right though, I can't really call it underrated when there are plenty of great symphonies out there that most people have never even heard. My views are probably skewed as the 6th was the first symhpony, or even first piece of classical music I really got into and the others, whilst being very good and enjoyable, don't give me same level of emotion as the 6th.

I have seen the ABC FM poll but have you got a link to the Classic FM listeners polls, I can only find the nations favourite composer poll.

EDIT: Just saw yor post in the ABC FM thread about Classic FM poll.


----------



## Artemis

Argus said:


> I have seen the ABC FM poll but have you got a link to the Classic FM listeners polls, I can only find the nations favourite composer poll.


Classic FM listener poll 2009


----------



## chung

Gustav said:


> My rank of my favorite BEethoven symphonies
> 
> 1 Symphony #5
> 2 Symphony #3 Eroica
> 3 Symphony #9 choral
> 4 Symphony #6 pastroal
> 5 symphony #1
> 6 Symphony #7
> 7 symphony #2
> 8 symphony #4
> 9 symphony #8
> 
> What are your ranks?


1) No. 7 (Konwitschny, Leipzig Gewandhausorchester)
2) No. 4 (Szell, Cleveland)
3) No. 5 (Kleiber, Wiener Philharmoniker)
4) No. 3 (Szell, Cleveland / Blomstedt, Staatskapelle Dresden)
5) No. 9 (Blomstedt, Staatskapelle Dresden / Schmidt-Isserstedt, Wiener Philharmoniker)
6) No. 1 (Jochum, Concertgebouworkest)
7) No. 8 (Leibowitz, Royal Philharmonic)
8) No. 6 (Szell, Cleveland)
9) No. 2 (von Karajan, Berliner Philharmoniker)


----------



## Art Rock

6
5

3
7

8

4

9

2
1


----------



## tonphil1960

*Beethoven ?*

New here and ,,,, As a relative newcomer to Classical about 4 years now and only versed as well as casual study can do I have taken a pledge to myself to learn all I can about Beethoven as in my study of Classical music of different types for the past 4 years or so I find Beethoven to be my favorite of all. Although I have not really studied all of these in depth, here goes nothing as they say.................

7
3
9
5
6
8
4
2
1


----------



## tahnak

Ranking in ascending order Titles are mine.. so don't fret)

1 Classic Sir Charles Groves / Royal Philharmonic
2 Prometheus Karajan/ Berlin Philharmonic
4 Norse Maiden Andre Cluytens/ Berlin Philharmonic
8 Little Karajan/Berlin Philharmonic
7 Heavenly Dance Karajan/Berlin Philharmonic
3 Eroica Bernstein/New York Philharmonic
5 Fate Bernstein/New York Philharmonic
6 Pastoral Sir Charles Groves/Royal Philharmonic
9 Choral Zubin Mehta/New York Philharmonic


----------



## Guest

9 - Gardiner/Orchestre Revolutionnaire et Romantique; Karajan '62; Fricsay/BPO
5 - Immerseel/Anima Eterna; Kleiber/Vienna; Szell/Cleveland
7 - Vanska/Minnesota; Kleiber/Vienna
3 - Szell/Cleveland
6 - Szell/Cleveland
8 - Szell/Cleveland
4 - Immerseel/Anima Eterna
2/1 - Szell/Cleveland

For the 3, 6, 8, 2, and 1, I only have recordings by Szell. I really should look into some more recordings of the 6th and 3rd.


----------



## Johnny

Have decided to focus my investigations mostly on Beethoven. His symphonies and everything else. Have yet to hear all his symphonies, but of the ones I have heard, the sixth is probably my favourite. Although the fifth is "not bad" either. And the third. And the. .


----------



## Lukecash12

1. Symphony 8
2. Symphony 1
3. Symphony 9
4. Symphony 7
5. Symphony 3
6. Symphony 2
7. Symphony 5
8. Symphony 6
9. Symphony 4

That said, I can enjoy each and every one of them.


----------



## Josef Anton Bruckner

1. Symphony No. 6
2. Symphony No. 5
3. Symphony No. 9
4. Symphony No. 7
5. Symphony No. 3
6. Symphony No. 8
7. Symphony No. 4
8. Symphony No. 1
9. Symphony No. 2

And I agree with Lukecash, every single one of them is highly enjoyable.


----------



## Nix

1. Symphony No. 5
2. Symphony No. 6
3. Symphony No. 7
4. Symphony No. 3
5. Symphony No. 4
6. Symphony No. 9
7. Symphony No. 1
8. Symphony No. 8
9. Symphony No. 2

All of them masterpieces- though 5 holds a special place in my heart as the first symphony I ever heard in full. And 6 is some of the most gorgeous music ever written.


----------



## TresPicos

Lukecash12 said:


> 1. Symphony 8
> *2. Symphony 1*
> 3. Symphony 9
> 4. Symphony 7
> 5. Symphony 3
> 6. Symphony 2
> 7. Symphony 5
> 8. Symphony 6
> 9. Symphony 4
> 
> That said, I can enjoy each and every one of them.


Finally, someone who appreciates Beethoven's first symphony! While it might not be very Beethovenesque, it's an absolutely beautiful Haydn or Mozart symphony.


----------



## starry

TresPicos said:


> Finally, someone who appreciates Beethoven's first symphony! While it might not be very Beethovenesque, it's an absolutely beautiful Haydn or Mozart symphony.


Well I appreciate it and I'm sure I mentioned that in my earlier post in this thread.


----------



## SPR

There is actually a *great deal* of Beethoven that I have not yet heard... but I wanted to say something...

Is this not one of the greatest classical CDs out there? It is simply _fantastic_.









having said that.... I will rank the 3 that I do know...in order....

#7
#9
#5

I find 7 irresistable.


----------



## Guest

SPR said:


> There is actually a *great deal* of Beethoven that I have not yet heard... but I wanted to say something...
> 
> Is this not one of the greatest classical CDs out there? It is simply _fantastic_.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> having said that.... I will rank the 3 that I do know...in order....
> 
> #7
> #9
> #5
> 
> I find 7 irresistable.


The Kleiber recording is most definitely one of those masterpieces. As of late, though, I have really come to enjoy the recordings of the symphonies by Osmo Vanska on BIS - wonderful interpretations, with impeccable sound. And Part's recent releases as well are wonderful.


----------



## SPR

I re-tabulated the results in this thread. I only included complete ranklings (all 9) and I did this quickly so skipped over any that were vague or incomplete.. I also skipped a couple that ordered 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9. I get *55* data sets.

I assigned 100 to 20 points. 1=100, 2=90, 3=70 etc.
Results with total points are:

1) 9th (4280)
2) 3rd (4150)
3) 5th (4060)
4) 7th (3890) 
5) 8th (2450)
6) 6th (3720) 
7) 4th (2510)
8) 1st (1800)
9) 2nd (1670)

=====================

So. I said I enjoyed 7th, 9th and 5th. Looks like I have to go get #3 for my next one. 

==========

Here is the data so far if anyone wants it...

Gustav	5	3	9	6	1	7	2	4	8
jwinter	7	5	3	8	4	6	9	2	1
karlhenning	4	6	7	3	8	5	9	2	1
todd	3	9	6	7	5	4	8	1	2
val	7	3	9	4	5	6	8	2	1
Mjunkie	5	3	7	6	4	1	2	8	9
pete	9	3	7	6	8	4	5	2	1
chopinson	9	5	6	3	7	8	4	2	1
allegro	5	9	3	6	7	4	8	2	1
topaz	9	5	6	3	7	8	1	4	2
hexameron	9	3	5	6	7	8	4	1	2
Amande	3	5	9	2	7	4	8	6	1
chambernut	9	7	3	6	5	8	4	1	2
ChiTown	7	9	5	8	3	2	6	1	4
daytrip	5	7	9	3	4	1	6	8	2
lizstfrk	5	7	3	9	8	4	6	2	1
opus67	6	5	3	9	7	8	4	2	1
rondo	4	7	9	6	5	8	3	2	1
cjr3559	7	3	8	4	1	5	9	6	2
Beetfan	3	9	5	7	6	8	4	1	2
Dcoleman	3	6	9	5	7	4	1	2	8
Kacker	3	9	5	7	6	8	4	1	2
RebLem	9	6	5	7	3	4	8	1	2
hsparki	9	6	5	3	7	4	8	2	1
WldVio	3	5	7	6	9	1	4	8	2
Bawig	9	3	1	6	5	7	8	4	2
SamGuss	4	3	9	5	6	8	2	1	7
Jhar	9	3	5	6	7	8	4	2	1
Salieri	7	9	6	5	3	4	8	2	1
TheMusMast	9	5	6	3	2	8	7	1	4
Ataby	7	9	5	3	6	2	8	1	4
Linden	6	3	9	8	5	7	4	1	2
Bach	9	3	5	7	6	4	8	2	1
Mueske	9	8	5	4	7	6	3	1	2
Tahnak	9	6	5	3	7	8	4	2	1
Conor	7	3	5	9	6	4	2	1	8
Andre	3	6	8	7	9	1	2	4	5
TresPic	6	5	1	7	4	2	9	3	8
MetalHead	9	6	5	3	1	2	7	4	8
wolf	3	9	6	8	7	4	2	5	1
cortisan	7	5	9	4	6	3	8	2	1
meaestro	7	5	9	6	1	2	8	3	4
somnufer	9	3	6	5	7	8	1	2	4
revelian	3	5	7	6	9	8	4	1	2
Jan	9	3	7	5	6	8	1	4	2
Audiophil	7	3	4	5	9	6	1	2	8
ArtRock	6	5	3	7	8	4	9	2	1
ToniPhil	7	3	9	5	6	8	4	2	1
Tahnak	9	6	5	3	7	8	4	2	1
DrMike	9	5	7	3	6	8	4	2	1
LukeCash	8	1	9	7	3	2	5	6	4
Josef	6	5	9	7	3	8	4	1	2
Nix	5	6	7	3	4	9	1	8	2


----------



## HarpsichordConcerto

My favourite Beethoven symphony is his 6th.


----------



## starry

SPR said:


> ==========
> 
> Here is the data so far if anyone wants it...
> 
> Gustav	5	3	9	6	1	7	2	4	8
> jwinter	7	5	3	8	4	6	9	2	1
> karlhenning	4	6	7	3	8	5	9	2	1
> todd	3	9	6	7	5	4	8	1	2
> val	7	3	9	4	5	6	8	2	1
> Mjunkie	5	3	7	6	4	1	2	8	9
> pete	9	3	7	6	8	4	5	2	1
> chopinson	9	5	6	3	7	8	4	2	1
> allegro	5	9	3	6	7	4	8	2	1
> topaz	9	5	6	3	7	8	1	4	2
> hexameron	9	3	5	6	7	8	4	1	2
> Amande	3	5	9	2	7	4	8	6	1
> chambernut	9	7	3	6	5	8	4	1	2
> ChiTown	7	9	5	8	3	2	6	1	4
> daytrip	5	7	9	3	4	1	6	8	2
> lizstfrk	5	7	3	9	8	4	6	2	1
> opus67	6	5	3	9	7	8	4	2	1
> rondo	4	7	9	6	5	8	3	2	1
> cjr3559	7	3	8	4	1	5	9	6	2
> Beetfan	3	9	5	7	6	8	4	1	2
> Dcoleman	3	6	9	5	7	4	1	2	8
> Kacker	3	9	5	7	6	8	4	1	2
> RebLem	9	6	5	7	3	4	8	1	2
> hsparki	9	6	5	3	7	4	8	2	1
> WldVio	3	5	7	6	9	1	4	8	2
> Bawig	9	3	1	6	5	7	8	4	2
> SamGuss	4	3	9	5	6	8	2	1	7
> Jhar	9	3	5	6	7	8	4	2	1
> Salieri	7	9	6	5	3	4	8	2	1
> TheMusMast	9	5	6	3	2	8	7	1	4
> Ataby	7	9	5	3	6	2	8	1	4
> Linden	6	3	9	8	5	7	4	1	2
> Bach	9	3	5	7	6	4	8	2	1
> Mueske	9	8	5	4	7	6	3	1	2
> Tahnak	9	6	5	3	7	8	4	2	1
> Conor	7	3	5	9	6	4	2	1	8
> Andre	3	6	8	7	9	1	2	4	5
> TresPic	6	5	1	7	4	2	9	3	8
> MetalHead	9	6	5	3	1	2	7	4	8
> wolf	3	9	6	8	7	4	2	5	1
> cortisan	7	5	9	4	6	3	8	2	1
> meaestro	7	5	9	6	1	2	8	3	4
> somnufer	9	3	6	5	7	8	1	2	4
> revelian	3	5	7	6	9	8	4	1	2
> Jan	9	3	7	5	6	8	1	4	2
> Audiophil	7	3	4	5	9	6	1	2	8
> ArtRock	6	5	3	7	8	4	9	2	1
> ToniPhil	7	3	9	5	6	8	4	2	1
> Tahnak	9	6	5	3	7	8	4	2	1
> DrMike	9 5	7	3	6	8	4	2	1
> LukeCash	8	1	9	7	3	2	5	6	4
> Josef	6	5	9	7	3	8	4	1	2
> Nix	5	6	7	3	4	9	1	8	2


hmmm I'm not listed maybe I didn't give a specific ranking. The 6th definitely seems underrated, I think some just hear a lackluster and too sleepy a performance of it and that makes them think it's boring. Arguably it's one of the most personal ones of the set.


----------



## HarpsichordConcerto

starry said:


> hmmm I'm not listed maybe I didn't give a specific ranking. The 6th definitely seems underrated, I think some just hear a lackluster and too sleepy a performance of it and that makes them think it's boring. Arguably it's one of the most personal ones of the set.


I think the 6th is the most lyrical of them all (not withstanding the choral movement of no.9). It was as if Louis sat down and tried to appreciate nature around him with all her serenity, composed it to describe and thank her.


----------



## Huge

Who's Louis? It's Ludwig.
Anyway
9,7,3,5,6,1,8,4,2 in that order.

9 is possibly overplayed, but it still gives me thrills.


----------



## starry

I tend to agree with no2 being the weakest as most seem to think, although the slow movement is gorgeous and the first movement has some good things (particularly the slow introduction).


----------



## Serge

What I see is that the two Classical era symphonies by the greatest composer on Earth are being voted dead last in popularity. The message should be loud and clear unless one is deaf and not Beethoven.


----------



## SPR

Serge said:


> What I see is that the two Classical era symphonies by the greatest composer on Earth are being voted dead last in popularity. The message should be loud and clear unless one is deaf and not Beethoven.


Shrug - count me as deaf. It might be intillectually lazy to read too much into it. It is just as likely that his '9th' is more popular than his '1st' simply because he had more practice and it is a more robust and interesting piece. To try and extrapolate sociological trends from an informal thread on a minor discussion forum regarding early vs. later works is maybe reaching just a bit, wouldnt you agree?

I would also point out that the 3rd symphony was only written 1-2 years after the 2nd... in 1803/4 and it placed second overall in this highly deterministic study we have done.  ....higher than the 5th,7th and 8th.

You also mention his '2 classical era symphonies'... when really - the classical era is widely seen as going all the way up to 1820. That would include all of these except the 9th which was completed in 1824. Obviously it is a little muddier than that - but maybe we should put some context around that statement...just to help clarify your 'loud and clear' assertion?


----------



## David58117

Serge said:


> What I see is that the two Classical era symphonies by the greatest composer on Earth are being voted dead last in popularity. The message should be loud and clear unless one is deaf and not Beethoven.


You're surprised because the symphonies that changed the course of music are more popular than the ones that did not? Really?

That's like wondering why the late Mozart Symphonies are more popular than the early ones.


----------



## starry

I do like the 1st symphony as I said earlier though. Of course some will say the 9th is Beethoven's best as it is the last one, the most ambitious, the longest. I don't agree with that. Beethoven towards the end was pushing some genres to their limit, that can be a good thing but it doesn't necessarily mean that everyone will think it always results in a complete success. Same with Mahler and maybe Bruckner too. I like the concision of the first and it's consistently strong material. The 9th is remarkable at times, the first movement spectacular. But I don't think I would put it in my top 5 Beethoven symphonies.


----------



## Guest

My thoughts have changed over time. I vacillate in which I find the best, based on an incoherent set of variables. The 6th has moved up greatly in my ranking, as has the 3rd. The 5th has dropped some, but not considerably. The 1st and 2nd still don't do much for me.


----------



## Serge

SPR said:


> Shrug - count me as deaf.


OK, you got me: I was trying to stir up a little controversy and excitement in here. (So quiet it was around in last couple of days, almost like in a concert hall.) I noticed that strong opinions tend to do just that. I also liked the pun. And let's not forget that today is the April Fool's day. 

Well, perhaps I should have added a smile to my original post.



SPR said:


> To try and extrapolate sociological trends from an informal thread on a minor discussion forum regarding early vs. later works is maybe reaching just a bit, wouldnt you agree?


Oh, yes, and I was happy to grab the opportunity. 



SPR said:


> I would also point out that the 3rd symphony was only written 1-2 years after the 2nd... in 1803/4 and it placed second overall in this highly deterministic study we have done.  ....higher than the 5th,7th and 8th.


Exactly. But what does it do to your own argument that Beethoven's crown achievements could simply be the result of "more practice"?

I am not claiming to be a music expert, quite on the contrary, so consider what I say as coming from an uneducated consumer perspective and take it with a grain of salt if you must, but to my untrained ears Beethoven's First sounds little distinguishable from what Mozart could have written. I think in fact that he did, it is called 41st Symphony or something  Brilliant stuff in its own right if you are in for that kind of a treat. On the Second unmistakably distinctive Beethoven's voice begins to emerge (first movement in particular) and that voice, in my opinion, ultimately is not something that belongs to the Classical period, while stylistically the whole piece still largely is grounded in that era traditions. And so both of these, while fine pieces (coming from Beethoven, duh) are very different and not anywhere near from what comes immediately afterwards, the Third being the groundbreaker and the game changer. To my mind it offers the breadth and richness unrivaled by any of the previous Classical era masterpieces. And that why I happen to think that it has Departure written all over it.


----------



## Serge

David58117 said:


> You're surprised because the symphonies that changed the course of music are more popular than the ones that did not? Really?


No, no, you misread the whole thing: this is exactly the point that I was trying to make. More precisely, that it all started with Beethoven's Third; so much broader and better it was than the previous ones that anything he wrote afterwards stood well above the level of his two most rooted in the traditional Classical era style early symphonies.


----------



## Huge

Meh. I like the 4th and 2nd the least.

Beethoven (the only person who matters in this) doesn't care.


----------



## starry

Serge said:


> No, no, you misread the whole thing: this is exactly the point that I was trying to make. More precisely, that it all started with Beethoven's Third; so much broader and better it was than the previous ones that anything he wrote afterwards stood well above the level of his two most rooted in the traditional Classical era style early symphonies.


How do you explain then that the 8th symphony was largely back to the same scale as the 1st? Beethoven also thought highly of the 8th saying it was better than the 7th from what I remember.


----------



## David58117

Serge said:


> No, no, you misread the whole thing: this is exactly the point that I was trying to make. More precisely, that it all started with Beethoven's Third; so much broader and better it was than the previous ones that anything he wrote afterwards stood well above the level of his two most rooted in the traditional Classical era style early symphonies.


I guess I just don't understand your surprise. His place in musical history is as a transitional figure - someone who influenced others and showed them a different way things can be done. His first two aren't bad, but what comes next is what he's primarily known for. You're acting like it's a big revelation that the 3rd is completely different from the first two - it's not. It's already in the history books as being the start of what ushered in the romantic period.


----------



## Johnny

Anyone else not really dig vocals in Classical music? I sometimes don't mind a full chorus, it's mostly the solo people that irritate me. In Beethoven's 9th, for example.


----------



## SPR

Serge said:


> ...I was trying to stir up a little controversy and excitement in here. (So quiet it was around in last couple of days, almost like in a concert hall.) I noticed that strong opinions tend to do just that. I also liked the pun. And let's not forget that today is the April Fool's day. ...


laugh. well said....and you make some good points as well.  Sorry - didnt really mean to get all snippy. I guess my sarcasm detector was turned off.


----------



## David58117

Johnny said:


> Anyone else not really dig vocals in Classical music? I sometimes don't mind a full chorus, it's mostly the solo people that irritate me. In Beethoven's 9th, for example.


Give it time! I was that way too when I just started, but then sooner or later you'll find vocals included in a piece you really like, and eventually you become desensitized to it ...just curious, have you heard the Rachmaninoff Vespers?


----------



## Johnny

Hadn't until now. Thanks. Seems more promising. Wasn't blown away or anything, just didn't have the extreme aversion to the soloist like I seem to have to "opera type" or that solo type in Beethoven's ninth. Not sure the technical terms. 

I think I liked "Gregorian chants" when I heard them.


----------



## Serge

starry said:


> How do you explain then that the 8th symphony was largely back to the same scale as the 1st?


If by "back to scale" you mean "close stylistically" then I don't know what possibly needs to be explained here; it was his art and of course he was free to express himself and his immediate ideas in the form that he found to be the most appropriate. But good thing that you pointed out the 8th, it appears that a mistake took place and that it should have been placed at number 3 from the bottom instead, which ironically serves to prove the point that I was trying to make even further.


----------



## Serge

David58117 said:


> I guess I just don't understand your surprise. His place in musical history is as a transitional figure - someone who influenced others and showed them a different way things can be done. His first two aren't bad, but what comes next is what he's primarily known for. You're acting like it's a big revelation that the 3rd is completely different from the first two - it's not. It's already in the history books as being the start of what ushered in the romantic period.


I've been listening to the classical music for awhile now but am very new to the music development theories and various related historic perspectives. After reading a few threads on this forum I felt that some finer points were still being actively debated and thought that the results of this poll could serve to tip the scale in favor of the theory that I personally subscribe to. But if it was already proven and commonly excepted, even better!


----------



## starry

Serge said:


> which ironically serves to prove the point that I was trying to make even further.


How? I thought you said he left the classical style behind after the 2nd? (Although arguably all that he did was in the classical style anyway)


----------



## SPR

Serge said:


> I've been listening to the classical music for awhile now but am very new to the music development theories and various related historic perspectives. After reading a few threads on this forum I felt that some finer points were still being actively debated and thought that the results of this poll could serve to tip the scale in favor of the theory that I personally subscribe to. But if it was already proven and commonly excepted, even better!


heh. Be careful with that. Making bold, terse statements around here without supporting them or even explaining yourself (as in your original post) will surely bring out the pirahna around here for a challenge. Its a good bunch and they mean well - but opinions run high and it is *far* too easy to misread that kind of thing.

Of course - if that is your idea of a good time... then please... be my guest and enjoy.


----------



## Serge

starry said:


> How? I thought you said he left the classical style behind after the 2nd? (Although arguably all that he did was in the classical style anyway)


I did not mean to claim that Beethoven never returned to his earlier Classical era style, since I am simply not familiar with his art to the extent where I could have made such a claim. My point being that based on the poll results his developed style was overwhelmingly more popular with the general audience than that typical of the Classical era earlier one. The 8th representing that early style and now allegedly dropping to number 3 from the bottom just above symphonies 1 and 2 further confirms that point in my opinion.


----------



## Serge

SPR said:


> Of course - if that is your idea of a good time... then please... be my guest and enjoy.


Thanks for the little encouragement but I think I'm fine now.


----------



## afterpostjack

SPR said:


> There is actually a *great deal* of Beethoven that I have not yet heard... but I wanted to say something...
> 
> Is this not one of the greatest classical CDs out there? It is simply _fantastic_.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> having said that.... I will rank the 3 that I do know...in order....
> 
> #7
> #9
> #5
> 
> I find 7 irresistable.


I think the 7th is spectacular too. For me:

#1: 5th and 7th shared
#3: 9th
#4: 8th
#5: 4th
#6: 3rd
#7: 6th
#8: 2nd
#9: 1st

I see I don't like his 3rd or 6th symphonies as much as some others. And the 8th seems to be underappreciated to me, as I find myself liking it a lot. None of his symphonies are bad though, just that some are less amazing than others.


----------



## drth15

3
6
9
8
4
5
2
7
1


----------



## gmubandgeek

I'm not the biggest Beethoven fan but here's my ranking:

8th (truly synthesizes the classical and romantic eras)
1st (the 3rd movement is absolutely HILARIOUS!)
9th
3rd
5th
7th
4th
2nd
6th (I am so tired of having to audition the clarinet excerpts from this symphony)


----------



## Charon

Of the ones I have listened to enough to be able to have somewhat reasonable judgement:

1. #9
2. #3
3. #2
4. #1


----------



## Whistlerguy

1. #9
2. #5
3. #7
4. #6
5. #3
6. #1
7. #8
8. #2
9. #4


----------



## Brahmsipoo

jwinter said:


> Oh, what the heck.  My ranking, as of today, and I'll even throw in my current favorite recordings of each (though those may change by this evening ) ...
> 
> 7 Abbado BPO
> 5 Karajan BPO 77
> 3 Klemperer Stereo
> 8 Szell Cleveland SO
> 4 Walter Columbia SO
> 6 Bohm VPO
> 9 Furtwangler 42
> 2 Bernstein NYPO
> 1 Gardiner


Excellent choice on the Eroica. Many give that one to Karajan, but Klemperer gets the point across beautifully without rushing through it. Walter also has an amazing 4th, I'd have to agree with that decision, as well as Furtwängler for the 9th (although I prefer the '51 recording with the Bayreuther). Furtwängler is who got me interested in the 8th, and I still haven't found a better interpretation of that (save for a 2010 performance with Haitink and the Chicago Symphony, which is not out on record). As for the 5th, I think Solti, Haitink and Kleiber all rival if not surpass Karajan's. As for Bernstein, I think he does every symphony very well, which is rare in any Beethoven cycle, but none of them extraordinarily.

Thus, my choices:

3- Klemperer, Philharmonia
9- Furtwängler, Bayreuther Festspiele, 1951
8- Furtwängler, BPO
4- Walter, Columbia SO
6- Böhm, VPO
5- Kleiber, BPO; Solti, CSO
2- Ormandy, Philadelphia Orchestra
7- Jochum, BPO
1- Szell, Cleveland Orchestra

Then again, such is the nature of Beethoven's music that it is hard to find a bad recording. Even if the conductor is fifth-rate, the work will still _sound good_, even if not at its best. (I exclude Roger Norrington from my considerations when I say this, for he _intentionally_ makes his recordings sound bad.)


----------



## Brahmsipoo

starry said:


> How do you explain then that the 8th symphony was largely back to the same scale as the 1st? Beethoven also thought highly of the 8th saying it was better than the 7th from what I remember.


He did say that, but I still wouldn't call the 8th a classical symphony. It is structurally classical, given the Menuet as a third movement, its instrumentation, and its relative sobriety and brevity. However, part of romantic sentiment is a longing for the past or "simpler times," which I've picked up on in this symphony. He wrote this in a time of extreme personal anguish (more so than usual, as he reveals in his letters from that time, along with thoughts of suicide), and perhaps wrote it as an escape from his present misery.

By this time, Beethoven had decisively brought the classical era to an end, and he knew it (perhaps even the moment he premiered his Eroica symphony). While the structure of the "classical" symphony remained, it was out of favor, with the styles of Beethoven, Schubert, and (later) Mendelssohn and Schumann moving into its stead.


----------



## Whistlerguy

Whistlerguy said:


> 1. #9
> 2. #5
> 3. #7
> 4. #6
> 5. #3
> 6. #1
> 7. #8
> 8. #2
> 9. #4


After listening to Eroica once again and some more consideration, I have to make revision of the list.
Now it is:

1. #9
2. #3
3. #5
4. #7
5. #6
6. #8
7. #1
8. #4
9. #2


----------



## BeethoFan

Here goes  

My rankings based on total number of movements within the symphony that i liked, with tie breakers based on the movements i thought overtook others:

1. #9
Movement 1 is a great intro to the madness to come, 2nd is epic, and 4th is legendary. 3rd was decent filler.

2. #5
duh duh duh dunnnnn. 1st movement was pivotal in establishing his legacy, and is my favorite. I loved the 3rd movement as well, especially the pluckato near the end. Overall a wonderful symphony.

3. #6
Ahh, nature. 1st movement is lovely, and the one i felt was the strongest. The jovial 3rd movement comes in second.

4. #7
The seventh has a nice dramatic quality about it. 2nd movement was wonderful, and the 3rd was good too.

For the rest of the symphonies, none of the movements actually stand out and shout something special to me, so i rate them based on overall expression.

5. #8
I consider the Eighth to be an upgrade of his 1st symphony...going back to an overall classical structure, but not abandoning that element of romanticism we've come to expect and love from him.

6. #1
His classical-core symphony. A really underrated piece. Nonetheless, a strong entry that is a great listen. 

7. #3
Eroica, after giving it many chances, i feel is vastly overrated. The only movement that somewhat sparked my interest was the 3rd. Still, this symphony beats out 2 and 4 as a whole.

8. #2
9. #4

None of the movements in either of these symphonies really spoke to me. Overall, I liked the 2nd better than the 4th is all i can really say.


----------



## Air

BeethoFan said:


> Here goes  Eroica, after giving it many chances, i feel is vastly overrated. The only movement that somewhat sparked my interest was the 3rd. Still, this symphony beats out 2 and 4 as a whole.


In time, my friend, in time.


----------



## Boccherini

BeethoFan said:


> Here goes
> 
> My rankings based on total number of movements within the symphony that i liked, with tie breakers based on the movements i thought overtook others:
> 
> 1. #9
> Movement 1 is a great intro to the madness to come, 2nd is epic, and 4th is legendary. *3rd was decent filler*.


I don't want to deal with your opinions about the first, second and final movements of that symphony. Yet, I haven't comprehended your opprobrious expression on the third movement. The Adagio - while I believe is more than a "decent filler" - describes deep peacefulness of glory and magnificence, using two different sets of variations on noble themes. This might be the soft part of the prayer/request about humanity, full of compassion, consolation, love, hope, reconciliation and longing. Berlioz wrote on the adagio: "Its form is so pure and the expression of melody so angelic and of such irresistible tenderness that the prodigious art by which this perfection is attained disappears completely."


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

Boccherini said:


> Berlioz wrote on the adagio: "Its form is so pure and the expression of melody so angelic and of such irresistible tenderness that the prodigious art by which this perfection is attained disappears completely."


Furtwängler, too, put this movement as level with the slow-movement from Bruckner's 8th as the greatest Adagios ever written. I think the juxtaposition with Bruckner will prove illustratively useful, too.

Think of the 1st, 2nd & 4th movements of this symphony- you don't have to know a lot about it to know all the big phrases in the final movement. A little more study and, however little German you know, you can sing along with the entire text. Isn't it, hands down, the most memorable set of German lyrics in the entire literature? 
And, as a Wagner-superfan, that's a big admission for me. The first movement is, passage for passage, no less memorable. The second... similar situation.

There's something different in that third movement, though. The recognizeable tunes are not as readily apparent. Our appreciation of it, even if enthusiastic, is appreciation in a different manner. It's best absorbed as a structure and not a sequence of details- which (to return to a point in the opening paragraph) is pretty much the way Bruckner fans relate to a Bruckner symphony. When people judge it to be clearly a less significant section than the other three, they're saying more about themselves than they're saying about that movement. 
_I hasten to add that I find nothing intrisically WRONG about this..._ we all have our different tastes, and I don't want to risk spending too much time arguing over them.

(Perhaps one can administer an audition of the 3rd movement of the 9th as a 'Preliminary-Bruckner-Appreciation-Aptitude-Test[!]')


----------



## BeethoFan

Boccherini said:


> I don't want to deal with your opinions about the first, second and final movements of that symphony. Yet, I haven't comprehended your opprobrious expression on the third movement. The Adagio - while I believe is more than a "decent filler" - describes deep peacefulness of glory and magnificence, using two different sets of variations on noble themes. This might be the soft part of the prayer/request about humanity, full of compassion, consolation, love, hope, reconciliation and longing. Berlioz wrote on the adagio: "Its form is so pure and the expression of melody so angelic and of such irresistible tenderness that the prodigious art by which this perfection is attained disappears completely."


I tend to favor phrases which express excitement/mystery over those which express serenity. That's not to say the third movement was bad, which was why i even mentioned it my description (and indicates the strength of the Ninth as a whole), but in my opinion it does pale in comparison to the other movements. After the 1st and 2nd movements, though, it does serve as a nice "breather" before the crazy 4th. I stand by my "shameful, opprobrious" opinion.


----------



## tgtr0660

My personal ranking: 

1. 9th 
2. 7th
3. 5th
4. 3rd
5. 6th
6. 8th
7. 2nd
8. 1rst
9. 4th

I would be interesting to rank individual movements. I think 9th has the best first, followed by the 7th's and 5th's. Choosing as second movement a slow movement I'd pick the 7th's and then the 9th's (the adagio, even if it's that work's third movement), as a scherzo movement I'd choose the 9th's, and as a fourth movement the 9th's would rank first, followed by a tie between the fourths of the 5th, 7th, 3rd, and 8th (it's the other movements of the 8th which I don't love that much).


----------



## BeethoFan

Haha, pluckato...stupid me.


----------



## Nix

following tgtr's comment, I'll rank my movements. 

1. 1st of the 5th (cliche I know)
2. 1st of the 3rd
3. 1st of the 7th (wow, I like my 1st movements)
4. 2nd of the 3rd
5. 4th of the 8th
6. All of the 6th is tied. 
7. 2nd of the 5th
8. 2nd of the 9th
9. 3rd of the 5th
10. 2nd of the 7th


----------



## tri2061990

my favourites
3 Bernstein
5 Mravinsky,Bernstein
6 Abbado
7 Kleiber
9 Fricsay


----------



## Nix

Anyone know which ones Beethoven liked the best? 

I know he liked the 8th more then the 7th. And I'm guessing he was very fond of the 9th and the 6th.


----------



## Wicked_one

1. 8th (there's something about it that makes me to like it better instead of the 9th)
2. 9th (even though it has some very intense moments)
3. 7th 
4. 5th 
5. 3rd
6. 6th
7. 2nd 
8. 4th
9. 1st


----------



## afterpostjack

BeethoFan said:


> Here goes
> 
> My rankings based on total number of movements within the symphony that i liked, with tie breakers based on the movements i thought overtook others:
> 
> 1. #9
> Movement 1 is a great intro to the madness to come, 2nd is epic, and 4th is legendary. 3rd was decent filler.
> 
> 2. #5
> duh duh duh dunnnnn. 1st movement was pivotal in establishing his legacy, and is my favorite. I loved the 3rd movement as well, especially the pluckato near the end. Overall a wonderful symphony.
> 
> 3. #6
> Ahh, nature. 1st movement is lovely, and the one i felt was the strongest. The jovial 3rd movement comes in second.
> 
> 4. #7
> The seventh has a nice dramatic quality about it. 2nd movement was wonderful, and the 3rd was good too.
> 
> For the rest of the symphonies, none of the movements actually stand out and shout something special to me, so i rate them based on overall expression.
> 
> 5. #8
> I consider the Eighth to be an upgrade of his 1st symphony...going back to an overall classical structure, but not abandoning that element of romanticism we've come to expect and love from him.
> 
> 6. #1
> His classical-core symphony. A really underrated piece. Nonetheless, a strong entry that is a great listen.
> 
> 7. #3
> Eroica, after giving it many chances, i feel is vastly overrated. The only movement that somewhat sparked my interest was the 3rd. Still, this symphony beats out 2 and 4 as a whole.
> 
> 8. #2
> 9. #4
> 
> None of the movements in either of these symphonies really spoke to me. Overall, I liked the 2nd better than the 4th is all i can really say.


His first symphony is overrated IMO. Funny though, his 2nd and 4th symphonies are his most underrated works. The 2nd has a strong and memorable first movement, which foretells the main theme of the first mvt. of his 9th. That's more than what I can say about the 1st mvt. of his 1st symphony. Its 3rd and 4th mvts. are strong as well, although the scherzo from the 1st symphony is wonderful.
The 4th symphony might have his most enjoyable slow movement, in my opinion (rivalling the andante con moto (which becomes very powerful with the right conductor (not Kleiber!)) of his c-minor symphony). The other movements are very memorable, humorous (the fast string passages in the finale are hilarious, the 3rd mvt. is very funny as well), powerful (such power, fire and passion in the 1st and 3rd movements) and unique as well.
The 7th symphony is his greatest symphony in my opinion. I don't like the slow movement as much as the others, although I have started to like it better the more that I listen to it. The intensity of its finale is unparalleled. The slow second theme of the third movement is exceptional, although it is comparable to the main theme of the first mvt.
The dark funeral march of the 3rd symphony is full of power and involves fine counterpoint. It is similar to the 4th movement of the same symphony, and is somewhat reminiscient of his Egmont overture.
The 8th symphony is very nostalgic and beautiful, it has some very exceptional qualities.


----------



## BeethoFan

I've come to absolutely love the 4th movement of the 5th, and there are times i feel i like it even more than the 1st movement. The 2nd movement is also starting to grow on me. This could become the first symphonic work i can say i truly enjoy in its entirety.

That said, i still don't know if it can overtake the grandeur of the 9th. I'm very tempted to swap these two on my list.

I tried giving the 3rd more chances, but i still haven't been able to budge. I'm convinced at this point it will permanently stay at bottom 3 on my list.


----------



## Ravellian

3rd
5th
6th
9th
7th
8th
4th
1st
2nd


----------



## Chopin_Fan777

In order from 9th to first:

9. 6th 
8. 3nd 
7. 2rd 
6. 7th 
5. 4th
4. 8th
3. 9th
2. 1st
1. 5th (I played as 1st violin in an orchestra... the most memorable for me)


----------



## Webernite

I like the 8th a great deal and I think it's underrated, but aesthetically speaking the 9th and the 3rd are the best: the Funeral March is extraordinary, although, from what I remember, the Scherzo (of the 3rd) is something of a failure.


----------



## Delicious Manager

Beethoven's Second Cousin said:


> Isn't his 9th really an opera in disguise?


Of course not! There are three purely instrumental movements and large chunks of orchestral music in the finale too. The presence of voices in a piece of music does not equate to 'opera'.


----------



## newromantic

I like 7 personally.


----------



## PianoCoach

My top favorites are:

6th Pastoral. Program music at it's infancy and it's finest. Beethoven's walk in nature ... makes you think he was actually a good guy.

3rd Eroica. The hero. Beethoven emerges from despair to triumph.

5th. The battle of Cminor and C Major. C Major wins!


----------



## Curiosity

1. Third - also the greatest musical composition of all time
2. Fifth
3. Ninth
4. Eighth
5. Seventh
6. Sixth
7. Fourth
8. Second
9. First

I suggest anybody who has trouble appreciating the Eroica goes through this analysis http://www.beethovenseroica.com/Pg3_anal/preanal.html. It certainly opened my eyes to a piece that seemed completely incomprehensible on first listen.


----------



## Meaghan

Wicked_one said:


> 1. 8th


Ah, a person after Beethoven's own heart! He ranked the 8th above the 7th too, you know. Though I wouldn't.

My favorite is 6. It seems like most people like it but few people like it the _best_. I think it may get written off as relatively lightweight, and I blame this partly on the program. It is at least as brilliant without thinking about singing birds, dancing peasants, etc.


----------



## Curiosity

Nix said:


> Anyone know which ones Beethoven liked the best?
> 
> I know he liked the 8th more then the 7th. And I'm guessing he was very fond of the 9th and the 6th.


He stated that his 3rd symphony was his best work, but this was before he finished the 9th.


----------



## Klavierspieler

1. 9th
2. 6th
3. 7th
4. 8th
5. 5th

It was pretty close between the 6th and the 9th, but the counterpoint in the 9th decided it for me.

I won't bother rating his first four Symphonies, because I don't really care for them.


----------



## Xaltotun

1. 3rd.
2. 5th. 
3. 7th.
4. 2nd. I REALLY like this one and I think it's very underrated.
5. 6th.
6. 9th.
7. 4th.

I still haven't listened his 1st and 8th enough to have an opinion on them. But I wouldn't expect them to rank higher than 7. in my personal list. I like his more dramatic symphonies best! In a way, the 9th is the best of them all, but it seems to concentrate on "light" and not enough on "shadow" to create a feeling of conflict and struggle. It's more like a credo, a decree, or a revelation, than a battle. And what I need from a symphony is a battle


----------



## 4'33"

*2cents*

To me, 3,5,9,7 are basically at the same level. Of course, with Beethoven, that level is off the charts. So....

#3
#9
#5
#7
#8
#4
#6
#2
#1

Also, the right conductor makes all the difference in the world. I didn't really get into B's symphonies until I heard Gardiner's set. Listening to the symphonies at the correct tempos with the right instruments and a kick-*** orchestra is just mind blowing. I'm not a big fan of 19th century orchestral music (too big and bloated), so hearing these symphonies by conductors who approach the works as if they were Mahler is just a nauseous experience (as is listening to Mahler!). Anyway, fwiw


----------



## FrankieP

4'33" said:


> so hearing these symphonies by conductors who approach the works as if they were Mahler is just a nauseous experience (as is listening to Mahler!). Anyway, fwiw


Mahler is a nauseating experience? seriously??? :O

#7
#3
#1
#6
#9
#8
#5
#4
#2

I LOVE 7. I LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT. 77777777777777777777. LOVE.


----------



## kv466

Hmmm, let me see...is it the one, ah...the two, ah...the three, ah...maybe the four or the five; no, certainly not the five...uhhh, is it the six, the seven or the eight...hmmmm,...I think I'll go with the ninth!


----------



## jalex

As an overall judgement:

9 / 5 / 3 / 8 / 7 / 6 / 4 / 2 / 1

If I had to list them in order of my preference at this very moment:

7 / 3 / 5 / 9 / 6 / 1 / 4 / 2


----------



## An Die Freude

#9 In D Minor, Op. 125, "Choral"
#6 In F Major, Op. 68, "Pastoral"
#7 In A Major, Op. 92
#3 In E Flat Major, "Eroica"
#1 In C Major, Op. 21
#5 In C Minor, Op. 67
#8 In F Major, Op. 92
#4 In B Flat Major, Op. 60
#2 In D Major, Op. 36


----------



## johnj

I'm new to the thread, but can I get a view on the best recording in 24kHz including re-master analogues but without going to the SACD pricing, comparable to the Walter-Sony Columbia Symphony 6 which I adore, for symphony 3, 5, 7 & 9?


----------



## johnj

I have a Walter-Sony- Columbia of 6, wonderful quality. Can I get a view what's the best sonic recording [near 24kHz], and the conductors for 3, 5 & 7?


----------



## SPR

I have been working my way through the Brilliant Beethoven complete set recently. I have to revise my ordering here. I think #6 (Pastoral) is jaw droppingly brilliant. (Staatskapelle Dresden). The 3rd movement is an artistic ejaculation of the highest order. 

#7
#6
#9
#5
#3

..the rest.. put em in a hat and shake 'em up.

7 still tops my list, and I continue to believe the Carlos Klieber CD (5 & 7) is one of the best classical recordings ever made.

By the way - this Dresden set in the Brilliant collection is, I think, surprisingly good.


----------



## Oliver

It's impossible to put them in order... they're all fantastic in their own right. Some movements I particular love though are:
1st, mvt. 1 and 3
3rd, mvt. 1 and 3
5th, mvt. 1
6th, mvt. 1
7th, mvt. 1 and 2
9th, mvt. 1 and 2

I'll probably update this as I hear them all more often. I've heard all movements of each symphony but don't know them all perfectly. The ones above I do though.


----------



## tahnak

My Beethoven Cycle ( in my ascending order)
1. Tenth (Unfinished)
2. First ( Titan)
3. Second
4. Fourth
5. Eighth
6. Seventh
7. Eroica Third
8. Fifth
9. Pastoral Sixth
10. Choral Ninth


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

From favourite to least favourite:

4
3
10 (when my own completed version is finished. I really hate the one available at the moment.)
7
9
1
6
8
5
2


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Hey! Why is everyone putting no. 4 as the their second least favourite?! No. 4 is the best of the lot!!!


----------



## Trout

In terms of tiers:

First Tier: #3-6
Second Tier: #7-9
Third Tier: 1, 2


If I had to provide a ranking, it would look something like: 3, 6, 5, 4, 9, 7, 8, 2, 1


----------



## Webernite

My favorites are 3, 6 and 9.


----------



## Vaneyes

3, 6, 8, 5, 7, 4, 9, 2, 1.


----------



## Webernite

I really like third symphonies. Beethoven's, Brahms's, Mahler's - all good.


----------



## jalex

jalex said:


> As an overall judgement:
> 
> 9 / 5 / 3 / 8 / 7 / 6 / 4 / 2 / 1


I changed my mind: 9 / 3 / 7 / 5 / 8 / 6 / 4 / 2 / 1


----------



## EarthBoundRules

My current list goes 3, 9, 7, 5, 6, 8, 4, 1, 2. The _Eroica_ is far ahead of all the others though.


----------



## obwan

To date I've only heard: 1, 3, 5, 6, & 9. 
But my fav by far is 5. 5 would beat all the others even with just movements 2-4. With the first movement, it is easily the best symphony by any composer ever.


----------



## Crimptor

I'd have to say:

1 - 9th

2 - 5th

3 - 3rd

4 - 7th

5 - 6th


----------



## Oliver

obwan said:


> To date I've only heard: 1, 3, 5, 6, & 9.
> But my fav by far is 5. 5 would beat all the others even with just movements 2-4. With the first movement, it is easily the best symphony by any composer ever.


You _have_ to listen to symphony 7. You don't know what you're missing!!


----------



## jalex

#1 is by far the least accomplished, and vastly overrated in this thread. In comparison #2 is massively underrated - the introduction to the first movement is one of the finest things Beethoven wrote, and the allegro section is incomparably grander and better worked out than its counterpart in #1; the slow movement possesses an ethereal serenity; the scherzo is much bouncier and more wittier than in #1; and the finales bear no comparison, the finale to the first being by some distance the least worthy symphonic movement Beethoven wrote.


----------



## martijn

Like Stravinsky, I find the uneven numbers underrated. Particularly the 2nd and 4th.


----------



## afterpostjack

I think my list goes like this: 7, 4, 5, 9, 8, 3, 2, 6, 1. The order of my favorite movements in the respective symphonies is probably: 7 - 4, 3, 1, 2; 4 - 2, 1, 3, 4; 5 - 4, 2, 1, 3; 9 - 3, 1, 2, 4; 8 - 3, 2, 4, 1; 3 - 2, 4, 1, 3; 2 - 3, 4, 1, 2; 6 - 5, 4, 2, 3, 1; 1 - 3, 1, 4, 2.
I have not formulated an opinion of how the unfinished 10th fits into this scheme. I think I like it at least as much as his 9th.


----------



## Moscow-Mahler

1) the Third
*2) the Eighth*

3) the Ninth
4) the Fifth

I think taht the 8th is underrated. It is a great and funny symphony!


----------



## FrankieP

9
6
7
3
5
8
1
4
2

Carlos Kleiber conducting the 7th is the best thing ever - youtube vid beats any live performance i've seen of it - so much energy and excitement!


----------



## ccarter

Hi guys,
Could anyone recommmend which are the Best versions of Beethovens complete symphonies (recommended already Wand, Cluytens, Toscanini and Anima eterna) Are any of these great, what are your opinions or maybe you have other suggestions would love to hear some suggestions.


----------



## brianwalker

9 / 3 / 6 / 8 / 5 / 7 / don't care



jalex said:


> I changed my mind: 9 / 3 / 7 / 5 / 8 / 6 / 4 / 2 / 1


Wow, the Pastoral behind the 7th?


----------



## samurai

ccarter said:


> Hi guys,
> Could anyone recommmend which are the Best versions of Beethovens complete symphonies (recommended already Wand, Cluytens, Toscanini and Anima eterna) Are any of these great, what are your opinions or maybe you have other suggestions would love to hear some suggestions.


I just purchsaed the HVK LSO Beethoven Cycle from 1963 and like what I have heard of it so far. Also, if you want an HIP informed rendition, I've also found the John Eliot Gardiner cycle with the Orchestre Revolutionnaire et Romantique to be quite good on balance.


----------



## Moira

I have been following this thread with some interest, together with lots of other threads that speak of 'best', 'better', 'favourite, etc. 

I wonder how many people, like me, simply don't have favourites in a manner in which one can set an order? Take symphonies 3, 5 and 9. I think they are Beethoven's more well known symphonies, and perhaps for good reason. So, they might be my favourites, but I would hate to have to choose between them, awarding one a first place, another a second place and the last a third place.


----------



## Pizzicato

1 - Symphony No 9 in D Minor 'Choral'
2 - Symphony No 7 in A Major
3 - Symphony No 3 in E Flat Major 'Eroica'
4 - Symphony No 6 in F Major 'Pastoral'
5 - Symphony No 5 in C Minor
6 - Symphony No 8 in F Major
7 - Symphony No 4 in B Flat Major
8 - Symphony No 2 in D Major
9 - Symphony No 1 in C Major


----------



## jalex

brianwalker said:


> Wow, the Pastoral behind the 7th?


Yes. Don't see why that's puzzling really, it's not an uncommon preference. I really like the first three movements of the Pastoral, but I agree to some extent with Debussy's criticisms applied to the final two. The seventh is unqualified bliss throughout. I might even take the 4th over the Pastoral.

It _is_ puzzling that you don't care about the 4th (and maybe also the 2nd).


----------



## NightHawk

1. 9th
2. 7th
3. 6th
4. 3rd
5. 5th
6. 1st
7. 4th
8. 8th
9. 2nd

The order is a reflection of how excited I'd be if I arrived just in time for a concert that included a Beethoven symphony. But, it might be different on a different night (the order). I love them all.


----------



## brianwalker

jalex said:


> Yes. Don't see why that's puzzling really, it's not an uncommon preference. I really like the first three movements of the Pastoral, but I agree to some extent with Debussy's criticisms applied to the final two. The seventh is unqualified bliss throughout. I might even take the 4th over the Pastoral.
> 
> It _is_ puzzling that you don't care about the 4th (and maybe also the 2nd).


I like the 4th but since literally everyone has put it the third worst or second worst, grouped together with 2 and 1, I didn't feel that ordering 4/2/1 was a a pressing need.

I think it has a bad rep because of the program element, and is underrated in the same way that opera is underrated by people who don't listen to opera (and overrated by people who only listen to opera of course).

Edit: I've looked up "pastoral symphony debussy" and his objection was primarily an aesthetic one, not a musical one. I don't count Beethoven failure to "tone paint" accurate against the Pastoral.

_"To see the sun rise does one far more good than hearing the Pastoral symphony." _- This is patently false, the Pastoral is worth a thousand sunrises.

The people who peg on the Pastoral for aesthetic reasons are as bad as those who raise up bad music for biographical reasons.


----------



## UberB

Impossible to rank absolutely IMO.

Tier 1: 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th
Tier 2: 4th, 6th, 8th
Tier 3: 1st, 2nd



obwan said:


> To date I've only heard: 1, 3, 5, 6, & 9.
> But my fav by far is 5. 5 would beat all the others even with just movements 2-4. With the first movement, it is easily the best symphony by any composer ever.


Very amusing hyperbole, especially since you judge the entire symphonic repertoire despite the fact that you haven't even heard something as popular as the Beethoven 7th. It's impossible to have a best in music anyway; it would be impossible for me to say which of Beethoven's 3rd, 5th, 7th or 9th were better than each other, let alone compare with the symphonies of other great composers eg Schubert, Brahms, Mozart, Mahler, Bruckner, Tchaikovsky etc.


----------



## gr8gunz

Favorite Beethoven Symphonies.

1. 9
2. 5
3. 3
4. 7
5. 6
6. 1
7. 8
8. 4
9. 2


----------



## mleghorn

Each one is great in its own way. I can't rank them.


----------



## Alydon

I hesitate to give a comprehensive list because I just finding a new recording of a particular symphony and can thus alter your view - also state of mind and time in your life you associate any one of Beethoven's symphonies too.

Personally, I would rank the Pastorale as first choice and this is only after hearing Kleiber's live recording on Orfeo. The others in desending order would be,7,3,4,5,8,9,2,1. I think some choices are probably swayed by received thinking - I simply prefer the 8th as a better listening experience than the 9th, which for all its grandeur is like being hit over the head with a sledge hammer and contains a fragmented and at times (in my opinion) ugly, scrambled finale (excepting the first part with the Ode to Joy section) which always has me think Beethoven had taken far too much rough red wine when composing the last section.

The difference for me between the other symphonies relate to how life affirming they are, and the finale of the Pastorale is Beethoven telling us that life is worth living as with the 7th in all its heroic glory. Of course it will always be a personal thing which may simply be to do with a tune or what time in your life you heard that particular piece, but whatever list you come up with you can be sure it will never stay the same.


----------



## BeatOven

I am still a beginner when it comes to listening to Classical music. I have mostly only listened to Mozart, Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, and Rakhmaninov. I am getting into Chopin, Brahms, and Schumann currently. However, there has not been to many days that I have not listened to Beethoven for the past year and a half. I am pretty much obsessed! And my current opinion on his symphonies rank them as such: 

1) 6th
2) 9th (I haven't researched this but the 9th has always felt like a patch work of ideas - perhaps left over from throughout Louie's career. A bunch of big and small ideas brought to life through an anthology like form..)
3) 7th
4) 3rd
5) 5th
6) 4th
7) 2nd
8) 8th
9) 1st

"Be embraced, ye millions!
This kiss is for the whole world!"


----------



## Polyphemus

Too many good (great) recordings to pick individual performances. So as follows:-
3
8
9
6
5
4
2
1

For my sins.


----------



## moosejam

I'm not a classical music devotee so to speak but I can appreciate good music and while all are great, 9th symphony is the only one that gives me goosebumps every time no matter how often i hear it, for your average joe bloggs like me who might not appreciate the finer things in a composition the 9th towers above all others and reduces me to a quivering wreck. I love it always and forever,


----------



## 4'33"

I thought this was which symphony was the best - not which was your personal favorite. I think the best of his symphonies are 9 and 3. Both symphonies changed the course of western music. Both are massive monuments of musical construction. Not only are they unsurpassed works of art, nothing even comes close, with the exception of his own 5th and 7th. After these four at the top I would say 8, 6, 4, 1, 2.

About the "Ode to Joy"......

I noticed that, whenever B's symphonies are discussed, inevitably some jackass makes a crack about not liking the finale of the 9th symphony. The Ode theme is actually one of the greatest compositional achievements in the whole history of music. In this theme, B distilled the very essence of freedom, of joy and liberty, into a theme so simple your cat could probably play it on the piano. Only 5 notes - and mostly stepwise movements. How many composers have done anything like this? It was designed, and with great success, for pubs, for street demonstrations, as a rallying cry against oppression. Bach, with all his fugues, never did this. Nor did "Mr. Greatest Melodist Of All Time" Mozart. Nor Schubert or Tchaikovsky. So give me a break with the snobby ** about the finale. Beethoven knew what he was doing, and that's why he's the greatest.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Right now I reckon:

4
7
3
9
1
6
5
2
8


----------



## Arsakes

Have I posted here? ...

Right now, from best to less good:

3
5
6
7
2
4
9
8
1


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Finally someone else who ranks the fourth above the ninth.


----------



## Vesteralen

Ugh..the ever-repeating war between "best" and "favorite".

As usual, I'm neither interested in nor qualified to say what's "great".

If anybody cares, my ranking by *favorites* is:

7
2
4
9
6
1
5
8
3

I realize I may be the only person in the world who puts #3 last. I understand why it's "great". But, for me, listening to it is more a chore than an enjoyment. I find it long-winded and repetitive - particularly the first movement which always seems to me like it's never going to end.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Vesteralen said:


> Ugh..the ever-repeating war between "best" and "favorite".
> 
> As usual, I'm neither interested in nor qualified to say what's "great".
> 
> If anybody cares, my ranking by *favorites* is:
> 
> 7
> 2
> 4
> 9
> 6
> 1
> 5
> 8
> 3
> 
> I realize I may be the only person in the world who puts #3 last. I understand why it's "great". But, for me, listening to it is more a chore than an enjoyment. I find it long-winded and repetitive - particularly the first movement which always seems to me like it's never going to end.


What recordings have you heard of the eroica?


----------



## TrazomGangflow

6
9
7
8
5
2
3
1
4

These are my favorites not the ones which I believe are best.


----------



## Mahan

GOD 5th is the best symphony ever... Wooooowwww


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Mahan said:


> GOD 5th is the best symphony ever... Wooooowwww


LOL you don't know very many symphonies then! ut::lol:


----------



## jani

9th
5th
3rd
7th
8th
6th
4th
2nd
1st


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

jani said:


> 9th
> 5th
> 3rd
> 7th
> 8th
> 6th
> 4th
> 2nd
> 1st


Quite typical of a person who has very conservative taste in music. Have a go at No. 4 again. My personal favourite, although I find that most conductors do the first movement too slow. John Eliot Gardiner is PURE GENIUS. I hope you enjoy listening to no. 4 over the rest of them soon. :tiphat:


----------



## jani

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Quite typical of a person who has very conservative taste in music. Have a go at No. 4 again. My personal favourite, although I find that most conductors do the first movement too slow. John Eliot Gardiner is PURE GENIUS. I hope you enjoy listening to no. 4 over the rest of them soon. :tiphat:


I am pretty Fresh/new/young on listening to classical music. I have really listened to classical music only for two years. As i get more experienced as a listener my opinions might change.
At the moment i think that i am gonna order the Vänskä Beethoven symphony box set. 
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-The-Symphonies/dp/B002QEXN6Q


----------



## Vesteralen

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> What recordings have you heard of the eroica?


Hey, it's been awhile. Never opened this thread again till today.

Recordings of the "Eroica":

Boult (Vanguard)
Steinberg (Command)
Davis (Philips)
Karajan (DG)
Szell (Columbia)
Bernstein (Columbia)
Norrington (L'Ouiseau Lyre?)
Bohm (DG)

always wanted to hear Klemperer, but never did

probably some others as well, but I forget.

Oh, yeah, and on Robert Greenburg's Teaching Company CD, probably the best version I ever heard, though he wouldn't identify it (HIP).

I also liked the old version played in the movie "Ryan's Daughter" that I heard on TV a long time ago - don't know who it was, but the label on the record they showed spinning was HMV, I think.


----------



## StlukesguildOhio

9th
5th
3rd
7th
8th
6th
4th
2nd
1st

Quite typical of a person who has very conservative taste in music.

Perhaps... perhaps not. My own personal favorites would probably go:

9th
3rd
5th
6th 
7th
1st
4th
8th
2nd

But isn't it rather absurd that a thread devoted to your favorites of Beethoven's 9 symphonies... has gone on now for 20 pages?


----------



## Vesteralen

StlukesguildOhio said:


> 9th
> But isn't it rather absurd that a thread devoted to your favorites of Beethoven's 9 symphonies... has gone on now for 20 pages?




Why is that absurd? After all, this is TC, isn't it?


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

jani said:


> I am pretty Fresh/new/young on listening to classical music. I have really listened to classical music only for two years. As i get more experienced as a listener my opinions might change.
> At the moment i think that i am gonna order the Vänskä Beethoven symphony box set.
> http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-The-Symphonies/dp/B002QEXN6Q


CLICK ON THIS FUNNY THING FOR A CHEAPER, BETTER RECORDING --> . Hope you like it. :tiphat:


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Vesteralen said:


> Hey, it's been awhile. Never opened this thread again till today.
> 
> Recordings of the "Eroica":
> 
> Boult (Vanguard)
> Steinberg (Command)
> Davis (Philips)
> Karajan (DG)
> Szell (Columbia)
> Bernstein (Columbia)
> Norrington (L'Ouiseau Lyre?)
> Bohm (DG)
> 
> always wanted to hear Klemperer, but never did
> 
> probably some others as well, but I forget.
> 
> Oh, yeah, and on Robert Greenburg's Teaching Company CD, probably the best version I ever heard, though he wouldn't identify it (HIP).
> 
> I also liked the old version played in the movie "Ryan's Daughter" that I heard on TV a long time ago - don't know who it was, but the label on the record they showed spinning was HMV, I think.


No wonder you don't like it. Check out this recording by clicking on this funny thing here --> .


----------



## Guest

ComposerOfAvantGarde, I think I recognize your name from another forum!!


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> ComposerOfAvantGarde, I think I recognize your name from another forum!!


That's right. I did find my way over to the Dark Side! 

I've also got a new favourite Beethoven symphony . Check out the last movement:


----------



## flatsix

3 (Klemperer: Philharmonia Orchestra, 1955)
7 (Kleiber: Bavarian State Orchestra, 1982)
5 (Kleiber: VPO, 1974)
9 (Furtwangler: BPO, 1942)
6 (Furtwangler: BPO, 1944)
4 (Kleiber: Bavarian State Orchestra, 1982)
8 (Furtwangler: VPO, 1954)
2 (Toscanini: NBC Symphony Orchestra, 1949)
1 (Toscanini: NBC Symphony Orchestra, 1951)


----------



## DrHieronymusFaust

Currently:

6
5 & 7
9
3
8
4 & 1
2


----------



## powerbooks

7, 8
3, 5
4, 9
6, 1
2


----------



## powerbooks

Don't think I m even qualified to judge. So the list is only a personal likeness.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I will try my list again:

4
3
7
9
2
1
8
6
5


----------



## StlukesguildOhio

I think his first 9 are the strongest.


----------



## jani

I still can't believe that you are putting his 9th so low, it has give so much pleasure for me.


----------



## Ramako

oh well, here goes...

9
3/5 so hard...
6
7

below 7 I don't really mind. 9 mov 1 is the best for me anyway (if I may single out one movement).


----------



## BeethoFan

Update (2 years and 9 days later!) 

In an effort to better explain my rankings, i've come up with a quality scale to grade each movement for all the symphonies. I encourage others to use it as well! It goes as follows:

_1: Bad. The work is either grating your nerves, or is dull throughout and putting you to 
sleep. You're forcing yourself to hear it and really just want it to end.

2: Subpar. There are some parts that leave you optimistic it will get better, but it is 
ultimately lackluster and leaves something to be desired.

3: Solid. You have NOTHING bad to say about it, but no part of it can be considered "great".

4: Very good. You liked it a lot, but it still lacks that certain "it" factor that 
makes it stand out and truly memorable for you.

5: Wonderful. Something you can consider beautiful, captivating, and/or just flat out 
amazing._

Scores are annotated as (1st movement, 2nd movement, 3rd movement, 4th movement). If you're absolutely torn between 2 categories, you can award half a point extra(i.e, in between Bad and Subpar would make the score 1.5). Luckily, everything came out different so no tie breaks were needed.

*Symphony No. 1*: 3, 2, 3, 3 - *11 pts*
*Symphony No. 2*: 2, 3, 3, 2 - *10 pts*
*Symphony No. 3*: 2, 2 (just barely...), 2, 2 - *8 pts*
*Symphony No. 4*: 1.5, 1.5, 2, 1 (grating my nerves) - *6 pts *
*Symphony No. 5*: 5 (amazing), 5 (beautiful), 5 (captivating), 5 (amazing) - *20 pts*
*Symphony No. 6* (3rd and 4th movements I score as one, taking the average): 4, 1 (putting me to sleep), 4 (4,4), 4 - *13 pts*
*Symphony No. 7*: 3, 5 (beautiful), 4, 3 - *15 pts*
*Symphony No. 8*: 4, 4, 4, 2 - *14 pts*
*Symphony No. 9*: 5 (captivating), 5 (captivating), 2 , 5 (amazing) - *17 pts*

_Final Ranking (with some further explanations):_

*1.) 5th*
*2.) 9th*

The 5th managed to beat out the 9th for me and top the list! I find the 5th to be a perfect symphonic work that i truly love from beginning to end. Beethoven's undisputed masterpiece.

As much as i love the 9th, it takes second place because the 3rd movement still doesn't do it for me.

*3.) 7th*
*4.) 8th*

The 7th has moved on up the list from last time, and it is a powerhouse. I think it's hard to dispute the 2nd movement is the best of them all.

I've grown to thoroughly enjoy the 8th! I do love the 1st 3 movements (especially the 2nd, which is a spin-off of Beethoven's joke canon 'Ta ta ta, lieber Mälzel' ), but the finale falls a little flat for me.

*5.) 6th*

The pastoral has fallen down the list. I really enjoy all movements except for the second, which legit makes me
fall asleep. I guess it's just a little TOO serene for my liking...

*6.) 1st*

The 1st managed to stay in the same spot. I still find it a very solid entry.

*7.) 2nd*
*8.) 3rd*

Heh, i didn't think it would happen but it did. Eroica has fallen down the list one spot. I just can't get into it, i still find it completely overrated, and honestly i barely found the funeral march to be subpar. The famed and acclaimed 3rd will remain my least favorite of all Beethoven's popular symphonies (3,5,6,7,9).

*9.) 4th*

Not much to say here. I find the 4th pretty boring, and I basically forced myself through the entire thing.


----------



## neoshredder

3 and 6 have great 1st movements. I enjoy the first 2 movements of Symphony 4. The first movement of Symphony 1 is pretty good as well. Can't go wrong with any of Beethoven's Symphonies. Probably his biggest strength of all the subgenres.


----------



## bigshot

I can pick a favorite child, but I can't rank the litter. If I had to survive with just one, it would be 6.


----------



## Klavierspieler

7
8
6
9
5

Don't care for the rest.


----------



## jalex

BeethoFan said:


> ...the 9th...the 3rd movement still doesn't do it for me
> 
> ...the 8th...the finale falls a little flat.
> 
> The pastoral...I really enjoy all movements except for the second, which legit makes me fall asleep.
> 
> ...Eroica...I just can't get into it, i still find it completely overrated, and honestly i barely found the funeral march to be subpar.
> 
> I find the 4th pretty boring, and I basically forced myself through the entire thing.


Your username rather jars with comments like these, don't you think?

Using your definitions I'd award every movement from the first of the Eroica on 5s and all movements from #1&2 at least 4s.

But to say that #4 is 'dull [almost] throughout', that the Eroica is 'subpar', that the second of the Pastoral 'puts you to sleep', that the first and finale of #7 'cannot be considered great', that the finale of #8 is 'ultimately lacklustre', that the third of #9 'leaves something to be desired'...I cannot understand this. I can only invoke the words of Hector Berlioz speaking on this same topic:



> Where is the truth, and where is the error? Everywhere and nowhere. Everybody is right. What to someone seems beautiful is not so for someone else, simply because one person was moved and the other remained indifferent, and the former experienced profound delight while the latter acute boredom. What can be done about this?… nothing… but it is dreadful; I would rather be mad and believe in absolute beauty.


----------



## neoshredder

The last movement in Symphony 5 gives me hope. Such a powerful movement.


----------



## BeethoFan

jalex said:


> Your username rather jars with comments like these, don't you think?


Why is that? Am i entitled to like everything he puts out? No i'm not.



jalex said:


> Using your definitions I'd award every movement from the first of the Eroica on 5s and all movements from #1&2 at least 4s.


Good for you. Glad you like them that much, i didn't.



jalex said:


> But to say that #4 is 'dull [almost] throughout', that the Eroica is 'subpar', that the second of the Pastoral 'puts you to sleep', that the first and finale of #7 'cannot be considered great', that the finale of #8 is 'ultimately lacklustre', that the third of #9 'leaves something to be desired'...I cannot understand this.


Why can't you understand this? Beethoven is my favorite composer, but if i don't like a work of his i will say it. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and not all opinions are meant to be positive. In case you haven't noticed, quite a few people on here have given negative opinions on some of the pieces. It's ok to do so, really.



jalex said:


> I can only invoke the words of Hector Berlioz speaking on this same topic:


Good for Hector Berlioz. Why should i value his opinion more over mine?


----------



## Arsakes

Eroica is a definition of perfect music.
I wish Beethoven did a great job too with Symphony No.2 and 8 which are inferior to All Brahms/Dvorak/Schumann symphonies. Maybe better than other composers' symphonies.


----------



## Arsakes

And 9 is overrated. Not great first movement, second movement is get boring after several minutes and it's only famous for it's lyric movement.


----------



## Renaissance

5 (especially the first and 3rd movement)
3 (for the first movement)
7 (for the second movement)
9 (for the second one)
4 (for the first)
6 (well...the first is my favorite here, but I don't really like the others)
8 (too "classical")
2 (Good too, but nothing special)
1 (no comment. the same as the 2th)

I am not sure about the 7th and 9th. Sometimes I prefer 9th to the 7th.

I think Beethoven has also amazing chamber music.(especially piano trios and string quartets) And of course, concertos.


----------



## Guest

Arsakes said:


> And 9 is overrated. Not great first movement, second movement is get boring after several minutes and it's only famous for it's lyric movement.


It's not overrated by me! I rate it just about right


----------



## brianwalker

9/3/7/6/4/8/5/2/1

This is as much judging the performance as judging the music, as my recent acquisition of Kleiber's recordings of the 4th and 7th with the BSO have swayed my rankings utterly.



BeethoFan said:


> Update (2 years and 9 days later!)
> 
> In an effort to better explain my rankings, i've come up with a quality scale to grade each movement for all the symphonies. I encourage others to use it as well! It goes as follows:


How would you rate Beethoven's Quartets?


----------



## jalex

BeethoFan said:


> Why is that? Am i entitled to like everything he puts out? No i'm not.
> 
> Why can't you understand this? Beethoven is my favorite composer, but if i don't like a work of his i will say it. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and not all opinions are meant to be positive. In case you haven't noticed, quite a few people on here have given negative opinions on some of the pieces. It's ok to do so, really.


You are certainly entitled to, but of course not required to. I just find it astonishing that someone who calls himself (herself?) 'Beethofan' only thoroughly enjoys one of the symphonies all the way through.



> Good for Hector Berlioz. Why should i value his opinion more over mine?


I don't think the opinion I quoted actually conflicts with anything you've written. In general, you should value his comments because he demonstrated through his musical works and writings that he was an especially intelligent and perceptive musician.


----------



## Ramako

jalex said:


> You are certainly entitled to, but of course not required to. I just find it astonishing that someone who calls himself (herself?) 'Beethofan' only thoroughly enjoys one of the symphonies all the way through.


Well, I label Beethoven as one of my two favourite composers and I am in the same situation. I find the last movement of 5 really quite (insert something that doesn't insult anyone here), and after the first movement 3 is only very good, the last movement letting it down less for me than 5, but having less interesting middle movements.

In fact, Beethoven is above Mozart, Mahler, Handel etc. on my list simply on the basis of the ninth, and really the first movement of that anyway for being thoroughly exceptional.


----------



## BeethoFan

jalex said:


> You are certainly entitled to, but of course not required to. I just find it astonishing that someone who calls himself (herself?) 'Beethofan' only thoroughly enjoys one of the symphonies all the way through.


I think you're "astonishment" (maybe you meant to say "find it a little surprising"?) would be warranted if my name was BeethoManiac or something. Being a "fan" of someones work doesn't require you find their entire library appealing. In fact, i doubt you can find many people on here that would thoroughly enjoy each and every movement of most of his symphonies anyway. A lot of people are saying they like so and so symphony because of this movement, or those 2 movements etc. There's a reason they are called movements, because you can think of them as discrete, individual entries.

Since you're using my scale to support your argument, what minimum grades would you expect me to give for each movement (and for how many of his 9 symphonies) in order for me to validate my username as BeethoFan?


----------



## Ramako

BeethoFan said:


> Since you're using my scale to support your argument, what minimum grades would you expect me to give for each movement (and for how many of his 9 symphonies) in order for me to validate my username as BeethoFan?


Everything has to be 5 obviously


----------



## jalex

Ramako said:


> Well, I label Beethoven as one of my two favourite composers and I am in the same situation. I find the last movement of 5 really quite (insert something that doesn't insult anyone here), and after the first movement 3 is only very good, the last movement letting it down less for me than 5, but having less interesting middle movements.
> 
> In fact, Beethoven is above Mozart, Mahler, Handel etc. on my list simply on the basis of the ninth, and really the first movement of that anyway for being thoroughly exceptional.


All I can do is repeat my surprise that someone would consider themselves a 'fan' of a composer despite finding so much of their music mediocre or sub-par (or that they 'like' a work despite not enjoying substantial sections of it). Under this definition it would seem you are a fan of any composer you aren't totally antipathetic towards.



BeethoFan said:


> Being a "fan" of someones work doesn't require you find their entire library appealing.


This is jumping to extremes. You've just stated that you find the majority of Beethoven's symphonic movements somewhere between 'tedious' and 'pleasant but mediocre'.



> A lot of people are saying they like so and so symphony because of this movement, or those 2 movements etc. There's a reason they are called movements, because you can think of them as discrete, individual entries.


A lot of people are saying that they like almost all of them. Of course we all have our favourite movements and moments in each, but if I say I like a piece of music I mean that I find at least the vast majority of it to be of high quality.



> Since you're using my scale to support your argument, what minimum grades would you expect me to give for each movement (and for how many of his 9 symphonies) in order for me to validate my username as BeethoFan?


That's a pointless exercise I think. If someone told me that Beethoven was their favourite composer, and that they liked orchestral music in general, then I'd expect them to like most of the symphonies all of the way through, and to have a healthy respect for any works or movements which they didn't like given the esteem they are generally held in.


----------



## Ramako

jalex said:


> All I can do is repeat my surprise that someone would consider themselves a 'fan' of a composer despite finding so much of their music mediocre or sub-par. Under this definition it would seem you are a fan of any composer you aren't totally antipathetic towards.


You seem to have missed something in my answer so let me repeat it:

The Ninth!


----------



## BeethoFan

jalex said:


> All I can do is repeat my surprise that someone would consider themselves a 'fan' of a composer despite finding so much of their music mediocre or sub-par (or that they 'like' a work despite not enjoying substantial sections of it). Under this definition it would seem you are a fan of any composer you aren't totally antipathetic towards.


So much of his music mediocre or subpar? I did no such thing. The only two symphonies where i consistently (meaning all the movements)thought the work was bad or subpar were 3 and 4. That makes 2 out of 9 symphonies.



jalex said:


> This is jumping to extremes. You've just stated that you find the majority of Beethoven's symphonic movements somewhere between 'tedious' and 'pleasant but mediocre'.


Now you're just making stuff up. Go read my scores again. Solid means "good" and is a passing grade, meaning i liked it. As i repeated above, the only 2 i found subpar or bad as a whole were the 3rd and 4th. If you wanna nitpick, i gave the 2nd 2 subpar scores, so fine, i had issues with 3 out of 9 pieces. 6 out of 9 made the cut.



jalex said:


> A lot of people are saying that they like almost all of them. Of course we all have our favourite movements and moments in each, but if I say I like a piece of music I mean that I find at least the vast majority of it to be of high quality.
> 
> That's a pointless exercise I think. If someone told me that Beethoven was their favourite composer, and that they liked orchestral music in general, then I'd expect them to like most of the symphonies all of the way through, and to have a healthy respect for any works or movements which they didn't like given the esteem they are generally held in.


You're expectations are pretty high, i think, which is essentially what i'm getting at. The "healthy respect for any works or movements which they didn't like given the esteem they are generally held in" bit aside, you seem to be a "fan" (lol) of the word majority. Let's roll with it.

I think it'd be fair to say that if i gave a score of at least 3 to a majority of the symphony (let's say at least 3 movements to be safe), that i liked the piece overall and can find myself listening to it from beginning to end. That leaves 2,3, and 4 out of the running. This means that, on the whole, i can find myself listening to the 1st, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th from beginning to end and enjoy it. That's 6 out of 9 symphonies. Sounds like a majority to me.


----------



## jalex

Listen, I really don't care enough to continue arguing about this.


----------



## brianwalker

Beethofan I asked you a question.


----------



## Ondine

Honestly, the one which I really most enjoy any time I hear it is No. 1. 

It has a lot of Haydn but you can watch clearly that symphonies will never be the same. This sense of fate given to music toward a new language is very thrilling. 

I call it the 'Fate Symphony'

After number one, then 5, 6, 7.

Sometimes I found the ninth absorbing and others not so.


----------



## neoshredder

Glad someone else really enjoys the 1st Symphony as well. It seemed I was on my own for awhile. 3, 4, 5, and 6, also really are great.


----------



## Krisena

I'm a fan of 7, not so much the second movement, but I LOVE the outer movements.

Other than that, I like them in this order of those I've heard: 7 > 8 > 9 > 5 > 3

I'm inclined to admit that I don't yet have the attention span needed for No. 9.


----------



## Ondine

neoshredder said:


> It seemed I was on my own for awhile.


Not any more neoshredder!


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

New order of favourites from me:

4
1
3
7
8
6
9
2
5


----------



## mtmailey

val said:


> My list:
> 
> Nº 7
> Nº 3
> Nº 9 (it would be my favorite but, sincerely and trying not to sound snobish, I don't like the Finale)
> Nº 4
> Nº 5
> Nº 6
> Nº 8
> Nº 2
> Nº 1


 THE symphony 9 finale i do not like either.


----------



## Guest

Today's order...

8
9
7
6
5
3
1
2
4


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

MacLeod said:


> Today's order...
> 
> 8
> 9
> 7
> 6
> 5
> 3
> 1
> 2
> 4


Don't you dare put no. 4 at the bottom again!!! :scold:


----------



## neoshredder

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Don't you dare put no. 4 at the bottom again!!! :scold:


So many good Symphonies though. Hard to pick any as last. But I agree that 4 is not the weakest. In the middle of the pack imo.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

neoshredder said:


> So many good Symphonies though. Hard to pick any as last. But I agree that 4 is not the weakest. In the middle of the pack imo.


Middle of the pack when it comes to ordering them by best written (best written of course is the _Eroica_). It's my favourite though.


----------



## Guest

4 is the one with which I am least familiar, so it would be difficult not to put it last. The 8th seems to be the most even - consistently appealing in all movements, whereas the 3rd and 9th have at least one movement which rambles more than the others. The 5th suffers from familiarity: it's difficult to hear the 1st movement without thinking of all those rock 'n roll covers!


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

MacLeod said:


> 4 is the one with which I am least familiar, so it would be difficult not to put it last. The 8th seems to be the most even - consistently appealing in all movements, whereas the 3rd and 9th have at least one movement which rambles more than the others. The 5th suffers from familiarity: it's difficult to hear the 1st movement without thinking of all those rock 'n roll covers!


Well become familiar with it quick! Watch this performance, it is fantastic:


----------



## Guest

OK - I'm listening to it - I'll get back to you!


----------



## neoshredder

MacLeod said:


> 4 is the one with which I am least familiar, so it would be difficult not to put it last. The 8th seems to be the most even - consistently appealing in all movements, whereas the 3rd and 9th have at least one movement which rambles more than the others. The 5th suffers from familiarity: it's difficult to hear the 1st movement without thinking of all those rock 'n roll covers!


Skip the first movement and the 5th Symphony sounds better. I love the ending of Symphony 5.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

neoshredder said:


> Skip the first movement and the 5th Symphony sounds better. I love the ending of Symphony 5.


What I don't like about the fifth symphony is that each movement is quite good but as a whole they seem too unrelated to all be part of the same piece. It puts me off all the time.


----------



## Guest

OK - listened to the 4th again - though I had to go to the supermarket and listened to Haitink/LSO in the car (the whole of the 4th movement while sitting waiting for it to open, so no engine noise). I remembered more than I thought I would, especially 1st and 4th movements, but it still doesn't have the appeal of my favourite movements from the other 8.

What is it about the 4th that I should be getting?


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

MacLeod said:


> OK - listened to the 4th again - though I had to go to the supermarket and listened to Haitink/LSO in the car (the whole of the 4th movement while sitting waiting for it to open, so no engine noise). I remembered more than I thought I would, especially 1st and 4th movements, but it still doesn't have the appeal of my favourite movements from the other 8.
> 
> What is it about the 4th that I should be getting?


I don't know. It's just that the fourth is so appealing to me. It seems to be a lot different to the other symphonies and the slow introduction and the beginning is just magical. It's amazing what effect so few notes can have! The rest of the symphony seems so joyful and full of energy, not as intense as his other ones.


----------



## jani

9
3
7
6
5
4
8
2
1


----------



## jani

neoshredder said:


> Skip the first movement and the 5th Symphony sounds better. I love the ending of Symphony 5.


Why do you hate the 1st mvt of his 5th?


----------



## campy

7 — 3 — 4 — 5 — 6 — 9 — 8 — 2 — 1

First place is an easy call, after that it's harder. How do you put any of them at the end of the list?


----------



## jalex

neoshredder said:


> Skip the first movement and the 5th Symphony sounds better.


Yes, nothing improves a symphony like destroying its whole sense of form, balance and coherence. Seriously?

I've listened to the 5th at least 30 times, rehearsed and played a couple of movements in a rubbish youth orchestra and grown up with the same pop-culture bastardisations that everyone else has and the opening movement still comes up fresh for me. I don't understand the problem. Beethoven's 5th is above cliche.


----------



## Ondine

neoshredder said:


> Skip the first movement and the 5th Symphony sounds better. I love the ending of Symphony 5.


Yes, I have done this a couple of times and it works well. A different flavour.


----------



## neoshredder

jalex said:


> Yes, nothing improves a symphony like destroying its whole sense of form, balance and coherence. Seriously?
> 
> I've listened to the 5th at least 30 times, rehearsed and played a couple of movements in a rubbish youth orchestra and grown up with the same pop-culture bastardisations that everyone else has and the opening movement still comes up fresh for me. I don't understand the problem. Beethoven's 5th is above cliche.


I disagree. Way too popular. The other 3 movements are fresh though and better than the average movement of Beethoven's other Symphonies. But I've heard the first movement way too many times at this point.


----------



## moody

Ondine said:


> Yes, I have done this a couple of times and it works well. A different flavour.


Perhaps it would be best to only play last movements---look how quickly you could play the whole lot !!


----------



## violadude

3
6
5
1

and then the rest of them.


----------



## jani

neoshredder said:


> I disagree. Way too popular. The other 3 movements are fresh though and better than the average movement of Beethoven's other Symphonies. But I've heard the first movement way too many times at this point.


The aggressive first Movement gives a huge contrast compared to the pretty peaceful 2nd movement.
That is the reason why i can't skip movements on symphonies.


----------



## neoshredder

Well I basically have the first movement memorized in my head. So I can easily recall the contrast without listening to it.


----------



## jalex

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> What I don't like about the fifth symphony is that each movement is quite good but as a whole they seem too unrelated to all be part of the same piece. It puts me off all the time.


What? The emotional arc over the 5th couldn't possibly be any clearer. It makes perfect sense as a whole.

This thread should be rechristened 'thread for making stupid comments about Beethoven's symphonies'.


----------



## neoshredder

jalex said:


> What? The emotional arc over the 5th couldn't possibly be any clearer. It makes perfect sense as a whole.
> 
> This thread should be rechristened 'thread for making stupid comments about Beethoven's symphonies'.


Just because they don't have the same opinion as yours, doesn't make it stupid. And before I got into Classical, I enjoyed the first movement a lot. But after 100 times of hearing it, I have no intereste in ever hearing it again. I guess you could say burnout.


----------



## jalex

neoshredder said:


> Just because they don't have the same opinion as yours, doesn't make it stupid.


No. That is not the reason the opinion is stupid. The reason is that Beethoven #5 is a symphony which has been pretty much universally admired by the greatest musical figures in history (and a whole bunch of intelligent non-musical figures) precisely for its formal perfection and structural unity, so it sounds absolutely ridiculous when some 14 year old starts trash-talking it in true pseudo-intellectual fashion on an internet forum.



> And before I got into Classical, I enjoyed the first movement a lot. But after 100 times of hearing it, I have no intereste in ever hearing it again. I guess you could say burnout.


This does not mean it sounds better without the first movement. It doesn't make sense without the first movement. The second movement opens in such a way that no-one could possibly mistake it for the beginning of anything. The fourth movement is pointless unless the first movement is there; it exists to counterbalance the first movement.


----------



## Wandering

6 is my personal favorite, though I've enjoyed them all tremendously. 

The Karajan digital 9 is my favorite recording for the finally, Jose van Dam uniqueness is the main reason, this was my first recording of the work, making me bias perhaps.

The striking difference in the mood of the popular movement in the 7th puzzles me as to the whole of the work.


----------



## neoshredder

jalex said:


> No. That is not the reason the opinion is stupid. The reason is that Beethoven #5 is a symphony which has been pretty much universally admired by the greatest musical figures in history (and a whole bunch of intelligent non-musical figures) precisely for its formal perfection and structural unity, so it sounds absolutely ridiculous when some 14 year old starts trash-talking it in true pseudo-intellectual fashion on an internet forum.
> 
> This does not mean it sounds better without the first movement. It doesn't make sense without the first movement. The second movement opens in such a way that no-one could possibly mistake it for the beginning of anything. The fourth movement is pointless unless the first movement is there; it exists to counterbalance the first movement.


It's not that hard to notice the contrast between the movements if you've heard the first movement a 100 times. It just seems like a waste of time to go back to first movement again. I've had Beethoven's greatest hits for a good 10+ years. It's not Beethoven's fault that the first movement got so overplayed. I see nothing wrong with my opinion or CoAG's. And disrespecting CoAG for no reason other than his age as well.


----------



## jalex

neoshredder said:


> And disrespecting CoAG for no reason other than his age as well.


It wasn't for no reason other than age. Age is a factor because the number of 14 year olds in the world capable of intelligently criticising a Beethoven symphony is vanishingly small.


----------



## Vaneyes

3, 6, 5, 9, 7, 4, 8, 2, 1.


----------



## Guest

jalex said:


> No. That is not the reason the opinion is stupid. The reason is that Beethoven #5 is a symphony which has been pretty much universally admired by the greatest musical figures in history (and a whole bunch of intelligent non-musical figures) precisely for its formal perfection and structural unity, so it sounds absolutely ridiculous when some 14 year old starts trash-talking it in true pseudo-intellectual fashion on an internet forum.
> 
> This does not mean it sounds better without the first movement. It doesn't make sense without the first movement. The second movement opens in such a way that no-one could possibly mistake it for the beginning of anything. The fourth movement is pointless unless the first movement is there; it exists to counterbalance the first movement.


Ah, something resembling some evidence for an opinion, as opposed to a fervent statement of preference. This thread, like the B v M poll offers little but an exchange of unsubstantiated opinion. I have no problem with CoAG or Neoshredder's expression of their opinions, by the way, but I wait in vain hope that anyone can actually explain what it is about the 7th/5th/ etc that merits a first place on the list.

I was assured that there were weighty people here with lots of knowledge and much to offer...

I'm either reading the wrong threads, or they're choosing not to post...or...


----------



## Ramako

MacLeod said:


> I was assured that there were weighty people here with lots of knowledge and much to offer...


I have been told I'm a bit fat, but I'm not so sure about the knowledge...


----------



## jalex

> I wait in vain hope that anyone can actually explain what it is about the 7th/5th/ etc that merits a first place on the list.


Hardly. It is impossible to convince someone with words that a piece of music is great if they have been convinced by their ears that it is not. You could try reading Berlioz's analysis of #7 (his 'analysis' of #5 contains as much breathless adulation as musical insight, though I don't blame him for that): http://www.hberlioz.com/Predecessors/beethsym.htm#sym7


----------



## moody

neoshredder said:


> It's not that hard to notice the contrast between the movements if you've heard the first movement a 100 times. It just seems like a waste of time to go back to first movement again. I've had Beethoven's greatest hits for a good 10+ years. It's not Beethoven's fault that the first movement got so overplayed. I see nothing wrong with my opinion or CoAG's. And disrespecting CoAG for no reason other than his age as well.


There's not much difference in their ages and we know that COAG is now 15.
I'm sorry but what you are saying re: the First movement is crazy, I presume this means that in the past you only played first movements. Or, horrors, this Greatest Hits thing only had the first movement===disgusting such should be banned!
You know this is a fairly ridiculous thing to be discussing,you go ahead and play what you want for Heaven's sakes.


----------



## moody

MacLeod said:


> Ah, something resembling some evidence for an opinion, as opposed to a fervent statement of preference. This thread, like the B v M poll offers little but an exchange of unsubstantiated opinion. I have no problem with CoAG or Neoshredder's expression of their opinions, by the way, but I wait in vain hope that anyone can actually explain what it is about the 7th/5th/ etc that merits a first place on the list.
> 
> I was assured that there were weighty people here with lots of knowledge and much to offer...
> 
> I'm either reading the wrong threads, or they're choosing not to post...or...


Evidence for an opinion. You mean like " Are today's Performers/Conductors As Good 
the Golden Age?" YES.


----------



## moody

jani said:


> Why do you hate the 1st mvt of his 5th?


He told you...he heard it too many times.
Sorry I was time travelling...he hadn't told us yet.


----------



## Guest

jalex said:


> Hardly. It is impossible to convince someone with words that a piece of music is great if they have been convinced by their ears that it is not.


That's not what I'm asking for. If it is claimed that a symphony is 'great' - objectively, a superior piece of music - what I'm trying to establish are the specific features that are noted by those who wish to claim its greatness.

For example, it was pointed out (on TV I think) that the 1st symphony begins with a sequence of chords that would usually appear in the middle or at the end of a symphony. Is this significant? Is Beethoven the first to do this? Is this an innovation that marks out the greatness of the 1st? What else is there in the 1st that is distinctively Beethoven, and not merely a copy or variation on Mozart or Haydn?

It is regularly pointed out that the 3rd is "longer and more complex than any preceding symphony". So what? Does that make it great - length? And what is complex about it?

(Thanks for the Berlioz link - I'll check it out).


----------



## Guest

moody said:


> Evidence for an opinion. You mean like " Are today's Performers/Conductors As Good
> the Golden Age?" YES.


Yeah, well, if you can't beat 'em...


----------



## Krisena

I'm not the biggest Beethoven fan, but I agree that the first movement of the 5th symphony is form perfected.


----------



## campy

MacLeod said:


> That's not what I'm asking for. If it is claimed that a symphony is 'great' - objectively, a superior piece of music - what I'm trying to establish are the specific features that are noted by those who wish to claim its greatness.


I don't think it works that way.


----------



## Guest

campy said:


> I don't think it works that way.


How does it work then?


----------



## Ramako

MacLeod said:


> How does it work then?


'specific features' is an odd phrase that you use. People generally take a negative attitude and thus greatness as often as not is because there is nothing wrong with it. However, this seems somewhat pessimistic.

I could say it (Beethoven 5th first movement) is perfect in its motivic organization. You might ask me why. I would then have to write a 50 page essay on the topic, or refer you to a link. I would rather say it has really remarkable moments in it, while the rest keeps you going in an entertaining way. This I would rather say because it is more intuitive and my personal reaction to it. What remarkable moments? The recap and the beginning of the coda - all the times the beginning motif comes back after the repeat. I have said why elsewhere, but the amount of meaning Beethoven has inlaid into those 4 (or 8) notes is staggering. I hear so much tragedy and heroism contained within those moments. That is why I think the movement is truly great.

However, although these are its outstanding moments for me, there is a great deal of grunt-work Beethoven has done to make them work. Clearly it is not the motif itself - it doesn't sound the same way at the beginning - it is their context, all the other material, which while great is not for me remarkably so, giving them their meaning. And so the whole must work cogently, even though it is only the moments that stick out for the listener.


----------



## neoshredder

I agree that the first movement is great. I never denied that it wasn't. I just heard it too many times. What's the point of hearing it for 100th time when there is music you are less familiar with that you want to learn. Movements 2-4 are good to. And this talk about you have to hear the whole Symphony to enjoy it is ridiculous. There is nothing wrong with skipping movements.


----------



## Guest

neoshredder said:


> And this talk about you have to hear the whole Symphony to enjoy it is ridiculous. There is nothing wrong with skipping movements.


Did anyone say you can't 'enjoy'? I think what they said (possibly I'm interpreting what they meant) is that it is necessary to hear the whole to _appreciate _the symphony as whole. (_Enjoy _and _appreciate _don't mean the same thing.) Listening to individual movements is undoubtedly one way to get to know how the component parts work. However, the impact of the 4th movement, whilst it can be enjoyed on its own, is nevertheless (IMO) somewhat diminished without having heard the 3rd.


----------



## neoshredder

MacLeod said:


> Did anyone say you can't 'enjoy'? I think what they said (possibly I'm interpreting what they meant) is that it is necessary to hear the whole to _appreciate _the symphony as whole. (_Enjoy _and _appreciate _don't mean the same thing.) Listening to individual movements is undoubtedly one way to get to know how the component parts work. However, the impact of the 4th movement, whilst it can be enjoyed on its own, is nevertheless (IMO) somewhat diminished without having heard the 3rd.


Well my opinions on the other movements aren't going to change just because I didn't hear the first movement together at that moment. Since I already know the first movement, I don't see how listening to it again makes a difference with the rest of symphony. Now I usually don't make a habit of skipping movements.


----------



## Guest

Ramako said:


> 'specific features' is an odd phrase that you use.


In what way odd?



Ramako said:


> I could say it (Beethoven 5th first movement) is perfect in its motivic organization. You might ask me why. I would then have to write a 50 page essay on the topic, or refer you to a link.


And I would say that's a helpful start. Yes, I might ask you why, but I wouldn't expect a 50 page essay. Something that pointed out the motif, how it is repeated and varied in different forms and, most importantly, how it was better than anything that had gone before or after (eg "Even the great Bach never executed something so intricate") Referring me to a link would also be helpful.



Ramako said:


> I would rather say it has really remarkable moments in it, while the rest keeps you going in an entertaining way. This I would rather say because it is more intuitive and my personal reaction to it. What remarkable moments? The recap and the beginning of the coda - all the times the beginning motif comes back after the repeat. I have said why elsewhere, but the amount of meaning Beethoven has inlaid into those 4 (or 8) notes is staggering. I hear so much tragedy and heroism contained within those moments. That is why I think the movement is truly great.


Excellent. This is the beginning of the supportive evidence for your claim that the 5th is a great symphony. You say 'remarkable elements' where you mean the bits that stand out for you. I said 'specific features' as a layman's cover all for the technical terms - motif, dynamic, theme, coda etc - that I would expect a critic to refer to in support of such a claim.

Of course, if people here are just using lazy language - 'great' meaning no more than they they really like it, not that it is a superior piece in comparison to other symphonies - then I'll stop asking stupid questions.


----------



## Guest

neoshredder said:


> Well my opinions on the other movements aren't going to change just because I didn't hear the first movement together at that moment. Since I already know the first movement, I don't see how listening to it again makes a difference with the rest of symphony. Now I usually don't make a habit of skipping movements.


Well, as I think you already indicated, if you've worn out the attraction of a piece for now, that's fine. I used to listen to a lot of Muse, bought all their albums in one go, devoured the lot (no skipping) many times. I've not listened to them now since I bought their last album - 2 years ago? - but I've not thrown them away. I know that I'll come back to them in just the same way that I return to the Beatles after a period, and Holst's Planet Suite...and Beethoven's Pastoral, skipping if I want.

I wouldn't recommend skipping to anyone just starting out trying to appreciate something for the first time (and I'm assuming that it takes more than one listen to 'get it'.)


----------



## Ramako

neoshredder said:


> Well my opinions on the other movements aren't going to change just because I didn't hear the first movement together at that moment. Since I already know the first movement, I don't see how listening to it again makes a difference with the rest of symphony. Now I usually don't make a habit of skipping movements.


I have no issue with skipping movements, or listening to them individually. However, the emotional context will be _different_ when you get to the last movement. The emotional weight, while in your long-term memory, won't be in the short term, and the _context will be different_. It's this that I think the others are getting at. The other movements are of course excellent (well I dislike the last, but that appears to be just me). It seems sensible to me if you are over-familiar with one movement to get to know the others better. Then you can enjoy them all equally in the future .


----------



## BeatOven

I wont comment since there is enough to be read.

3rd
6th
7th
9th
8th
4th
5th
I'm not familiar with the first two enough to pit them against each other (honk if you agree)


----------



## nikola

Ok, here is my ranking. Actualy, I've heard some symphonies many times, some not so many times, but I've heard them all. Here they are based on my personal taste:

*1. 5th symphony* - to me his best symphony. 1st movement represents to me the greatest accomplishment in classical music. It's pure perfection. All that drama, emotions, struggle.... I love it. Other movements are great too. Especialy 3rd movement with it's transition to glory of the 4th movement. I think this symphony has almost everything Beethoven was meant to be. No matter how many times 1st movement is played on radio stations or TV, it will not turn it into 'weaker' music. It's always the same piece of music no matter how many times you've heard it.

*2. 9th symphony* - ok, I love almost everything about this symphony. All drama and darkness of 1st movement with it's almost surreal begining. 2nd neurotic movement. 3rd mvt which gives me feeling of Beethoven saying 'farewell'. And of course, 4th mvt... I simply love it all the way through even though 3rd mvt is probably slightly less favorite than the rest of 9th. 
Everything that Beethoven probably wanted to be is in this symphony... IMO.
Ok, I guess my taste is not unique so far 

*3. 7th symphony * - 2nd mvt is my favorite Beethoven's piece of music ever. I don't have words to describe it. It's darkness, sadness and beauty is big like universe. I can't listen to this without start crying, honestly. 1st mvt is brilliant too. 3rd and 4th are actualy probably the 2 most fun pieces by Beethoven.

*4. 6th symphony* - So, Beethoven was actualy able to write a 'TUNE' in last movement  And what a tune... simply beautiful and most favorite part to me. I like the overall feel of symphony which takes me into nature with birds, trees, green fields... it's all there. Very relaxing.

*5. 8th symphony* - mostly for last mvt.

*6. 2nd symphony* - I simply like Beethoven's hystercial musical jokes

*7. 4th symphony*

*8. 1st symphony*

*9. 3rd symphony* - ok, I know this is kind of blasphemy probably, but it's torture to me to listen to it all the way through. 1st mvt symply goes nowhere with it's 'going everywhere' approach and I can't find any decent musical construction that actualy fits together with the rest of construction. And it starts with some little melody that sounds like prototype of last mvt melody in Pastoral symphony. I know it's historical importance, but I simply can't get into it no matter what. 
Middle part of 2nd mvt is probably the best part in whole symphony, yet still not enough satisfying to me. 3rd mvt is a joke. 4th mvt is not bad, but nothing special.


----------



## campy

nikola said:


> 3rd mvt is a joke.


Well, it's a _scherzo, _so isn't it supposed to be a joke?


----------



## nikola

Sure 
It's just that it sounds somehow subpar to me in comparison with some other Beethoven's musical jokes. I guess that I'm probably always mostly too much drained and nervous after listening to first 2 movements, so when 3rd movement starts playing I mostly lose my ability and will to pay attention more closely.


----------



## Guest

The 3rd movement is the best part of 3rd symphony (to my ears)!


----------



## Ramako

Symphony 3 stands on its first movement for me. The rest is so-so.

EDIT: Clarification - that is Beethoven so-so I'm talking about of course.


----------



## Carpenoctem

It's hard for me to rate them, because I love them all. All are great, but my current favorite is no.6.

Even Beethoven said that his Sixth Symphony is: "more the expression of feeling than painting".

As we all know, he loved taking long walks in the nature as well as other composers. He got his inspiration for this symphony while walking in country.

It's full of beautiful melodies and drama at the same time.

Also I think that one should read the titles from all the movements before listening to them, it enhances the listening experience 
a lot.

1. Awakening of cheerful feelings upon arrival in the country
2. Scene at the brook
3. Happy gathering of country folk
4. Thunderstorm
5. Cheerful and thankful feelings after the storm


----------



## brianwalker

Skip movements? Most people skip whole symphonies (1, 2, 4, 8).


----------



## Guest

[ignore - same discussion - wrong thread]


----------



## zeszut

7
9
6
8
5
10
3
2
1
4


----------



## sukruyakupoglu

5th
9th 
3rd
2nd
6th
4th
and others


----------



## Clump

9 > 3 > 5 = 8 = 6 > 7 = 4 > 2 > 1


----------



## Carpenoctem

I always cry a little when I see that No.6 isn't in someone's top 5 Beethoven symphonies.

I'm all up for different tastes, but 6th is full of color and beautiful melodies.


----------



## Renaissance

9
3
5
6
7
4
8
2
1

Hard to choose, they are all good, at least to my taste.


----------



## neoshredder

6
3
1
4
5
8
7
9
2


----------



## jani

neoshredder said:


> 6
> 3
> 1
> 4
> 5
> 8
> 7
> 9
> 2


´9th so low :O


----------



## neoshredder

jani said:


> ´9th so low :O


The second is too low.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

4
1
3
2
8
6
7
9
5


----------



## Wandering

Carpenoctem said:


> I always cry a little when I see that No.6 isn't in someone's top 5 Beethoven symphonies.
> 
> I'm all up for different tastes, but 6th is full of color and beautiful melodies.


I completely agree. There are things in this work that are far too subtle to have appeared in the 5th.


----------



## ClassicalDJ

9
3
5
6
7
8
4
1
2


----------



## ClassicalDJ

val said:


> My list:
> 
> Nº 7
> Nº 3
> Nº 9 (it would be my favorite but, sincerely and trying not to sound snobish, I don't like the Finale)
> Nº 4
> Nº 5
> Nº 6
> Nº 8
> Nº 2
> Nº 1


While I don't care as much for the finale (I will say though that the entrance of the Ode to Joy theme on the lower strings gets me every time), I love the first three movements so much that this is still my favorite Beethoven symphony.


----------



## Ramako

ClassicalDJ said:


> While I don't care as much for the finale (I will say though that the entrance of the Ode to Joy theme on the lower strings gets me every time), I love the first three movements so much that this is still my favorite Beethoven symphony.


Interestingly your opinion was shared by Mendelssohn. He however said that there bits in the last movement he didn't understand, but in the case of such a great master, it was probably the performance or himself that was to blame.


----------



## Clump

I've never liked the contrapuntal parts with the singers very much.

My favourite parts are the contrapuntal string parts after the theme first enters, the fugue just after the turkish march, and when the first verse is reprised with the full choir


----------



## SAKO

1. 5
2. 6
3. 9
4. 3
5. 7
6. 8
7. 4
8. 1 & 2

But by tomorrow my opinion will have changed.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

4
3
1
6
7
2
9
8
5


----------



## brianwalker

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> 4
> 3
> 1
> 6
> 7
> 2
> 9
> 8
> 5


1 before 9? 4 before 3? Why????


----------



## Vaneyes

Most of you can stay after school, and write EROICA five hundred times on the blackboard.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Vaneyes said:


> Most of you can stay after school, and write EROICA five hundred times on the blackboard.


There a T in that word.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

brianwalker said:


> 1 before 9? 4 before 3? Why????


Because that's how I roll.


----------



## Guest

This week

8
9
7
5
6
3
1
2
4


----------



## Tombstoner

7
9
5
4
6
3
8
2
1


----------



## ahammel

Difficult question! I had another listen through the cycle and came up with this:

8
5
3
9
1
6
7
4
2

I should really get a recording of the ninth where all the violins are in tune and playing at the same time.


----------



## Ramako

ahammel said:


> I should really get a recording of the ninth where all the violins are in tune and playing at the same time.


Lol that sounds like a good idea


----------



## juergen

I think I have now seen every possible permutation of these nine numbers. Music seems not to be a very exact science.


----------



## ahammel

juergen said:


> I think I have now seen every possible permutation of these nine numbers.


I doubt it. There are 362880 possible permutations.

Mine is the correct one, though.


----------



## Ramako

ahammel said:


> Mine is the correct one, though.


I must disagree - 9 should always be top


----------



## nikitema

Nubmer six.


----------



## Farmaggedon

For today, anyway:

9 Fricsay, Furtwaengler (1954 Lucerne)
3 Klemperer
4 Harnoncourt, Chailly
7 Karajan ('70s)
5 Pletnev (yeah, believe it or not)
8 Karajan ('70s)
2 Mackerras (live)
1 Hogwood
6 Jochum

The only real weirdness is my love for the 4th and my disdain for the 6th (well, relative disdain).


----------



## realdealblues

I saw this post a while back and have gone back and done A LOT of re-listening to Beethoven. Listening to each symphony 5-7 times in a row from different conductors and orchestras before moving onto the next symphony. Really thinking about what movements I really enjoy, which symphonies I like on the whole, which keep my interest throughout, etc.

And after much deliberation I will definitely be joining the minority on here.
Symphony #1
Symphony #4
Symphony #5
Symphony #8
Symphony #9
Symphony #3
Symphony #7
Symphony #6
Symphony #2


----------



## davinci

ahammel said:


> Difficult question! I had another listen through the cycle and came up with this:
> 
> 8
> 5
> 3
> 9
> 1
> 6
> 7
> 4
> 2
> 
> I should really get a recording of the ninth where all the violins are in tune and playing at the same time.


How bout worst 9th of all time... "Ode to Freedom." Lenny conducting at Brandenburg Gate with way too many orchestras out of tune.


----------



## KenOC

realdealblues said:


> And after much deliberation I will definitely be joining the minority on here.
> Symphony #1
> Symphony #4
> Symphony #5
> Symphony #8
> Symphony #9
> Symphony #3
> Symphony #7
> Symphony #6
> Symphony #2


Can I borrow your random number generator?


----------



## Ukko

realdealblues said:


> I saw this post a while back and have gone back and done A LOT of re-listening to Beethoven. Listening to each symphony 5-7 times in a row from different conductors and orchestras before moving onto the next symphony. Really thinking about what movements I really enjoy, which symphonies I like on the whole, which keep my interest throughout, etc.
> 
> And after much deliberation I will definitely be joining the minority on here.
> Symphony #1
> Symphony #4
> Symphony #5
> Symphony #8
> Symphony #9
> Symphony #3
> Symphony #7
> Symphony #6
> Symphony #2


Hey, move #1 down after #9, and I'll buy your story.


----------



## Guest

1. Ninth
2. Fifth
3. Seventh
4. Third
5. Pastoral
6. First
7. Fourth
8. Eighth
9. Second


----------



## Art Rock

Hors concours: 6
Essential: 5
Important: 3,7
Good to have: 4,8,9 (for the first 3 movements)
Not required: 1,2

This follows the definitions as I use them in my blog:
Hors concours: the very best in classical music, about 100 works or so
Essential: if I had to start my CD collection from scratch, this has to be in
Important: if I had to start my CD collection from scratch, this will likely be in
Good to have: if I had to start my CD collection from scratch, this will be on the list but with lower priority
Not required: if I had to start my CD collection from scratch, I would probably not get these


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

4
1
3
7
2
6
8
9
5


----------



## realdealblues

KenOC said:


> Can I borrow your random number generator?


Haha...actually made me lol.



Hilltroll72 said:


> Hey, move #1 down after #9, and I'll buy your story.


What can I say, I love Symphony #1  It's perfect and the final movement has some wonderful melody lines and tempo changes that I really enjoy.

I love Symphony #9 but on the whole, a few of the movements just drag out longer than they need too for my ears.


----------



## Aries

9th
...
3th
5th
7th
6th
4th
8th
...
2nd
1st


----------



## MJongo

9
8
5
6
3
7
4
1
2


----------



## Ramako

After some consideration...

My list is still the same, how boring. Why am I posting this here?

[9....(3,5)...6,7..8,1,(2,4)]


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I've recently been mesmerised by no. 2

Currently:
4
2
3
1
7
9
6
8
5


----------



## Novelette

Agreed, it seems to change daily:

Current rank:

8
3
9 [first movement especially!]
5
7
6
2
4
1


----------



## Vaneyes

3,3,3,3,3,3,3,3,3.


----------



## neoshredder

Always 3 for me.


----------



## Renaissance

3 / 9 / 8 / 4 / 5 / 7 / 6 / 1 / 2 /


----------



## afterpostjack

My list as of this moment:

4, 5, 7, 3, 9, (10), 8, 2, 1, 6

I love the atmosphere of the 4th.


----------



## neoshredder

Changing my order 
6
3
7
4
8
5
9
1
2


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

4
2
3
1
7
6
9
8
5


----------



## neoshredder

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> 4
> 2
> 3
> 1
> 7
> 6
> 9
> 8
> 5


Wrong order.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

neoshredder said:


> Wrong order.


4
2
1
8
6
3
5
7
9

hows that?


----------



## neoshredder

Move 6 up a little higher and I'll be ok with that list.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

neoshredder said:


> Move 6 up a little higher and I'll be ok with that list.


My final offer:

4
2
1
6
8
3
5
7
9


----------



## neoshredder

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> My final offer:
> 
> 4
> 2
> 1
> 6
> 8
> 3
> 5
> 7
> 9


I'll take it.


----------



## jani

neoshredder said:


> I'll take it.


Turn it upside down and i take it.


----------



## SiegendesLicht

5
9
3 
7
6 
4 
1, 2, 8.


----------



## Guest

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9


----------



## neoshredder

This random generator works pretty well. 
9
1
8
2
7
3
6
4
5


----------



## Crudblud

5, 6, 7 is a fine run for any composer, the rest I can do without.


----------



## jani

9
3
5
6
7
8
4
2
1


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

2
4
1
3
6
8
7
9
5

oh my gosh, number 2 has overtaken number 4!!!!!!!!


----------



## Tombstoner

I received Zinman's cycle for Christmas this year, and will be listening through it over the coming days. Here is my current list, before this coming listen:
7
5
4
6
9
3
8
2
1
It's quite nice to see a variety of permutations here.


----------



## Machiavel

5
6

8
7

9

4,3,2,1


----------



## oogabooha

6
9
4
2
3
5
1
7
8


----------



## mohammad

I think that it depends your age and attitudes.But to me,the list is as follows:
5
3
9
7
4
6
8
2
1


----------



## AClockworkOrange

Mine vary frequently, depending on mood, the kind of day I'm having etc. The only constant is my favourite, the 9th.

All of the Symphonies are really good and each has something to offer.

My preference at the moment would be:
9th
8th
3rd
5th (_almost_ ranked with sixth for the same reasons)
7th
1st
2nd
4th. (the one symphony of Beethoven's I am not as familiar with as I would like. This will soon be rectified and possibly re-ranked in due course)
6th (I have nothing against the sixth, it is simply because I have heard this too often at present. Also at present I prefer Symphonies one and two.)


----------



## Mahlerian

Roughly:

9 in D minor,
3 in E-flat,
4 in B-flat,
5 in C minor,
6 in F,
7 in A,
8 in F,
1 in C,
2 in D


----------



## Tristan

^Nice to see the 4th higher up on your list. The 4th is really underrated in my opinion, totally overshadowed by the 3rd and 5th. I had never heard any part of it before I got my Beethoven symphony box set and I was really impressed; it's now one of my favorites.


----------



## Mahlerian

Tristan said:


> ^Nice to see the 4th higher up on your list. The 4th is really underrated in my opinion, totally overshadowed by the 3rd and 5th. I had never heard any part of it before I got my Beethoven symphony box set and I was really impressed; it's now one of my favorites.


I've had a special love of the 4th for a long time, since before I was really aware of its status relative to its immediate siblings. I feel it's unfairly overlooked because it doesn't immediately stand out the way they do, but it's an extremely well-written and engaging symphony.


----------



## TheVioletKing

I personally liked the 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th. for the one I like the best, it would be the 3rd. for the one I liked the least, it would be the 8th.


----------



## samurai

TheVioletKing said:


> I personally liked the 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th. for the one I liked the best, it would be the 3rd. for the one I liked the least, it would be the 8th.


Do you mean that this is no longer the current order of your preferences, since you are using *"liked"* instead of *"like"?*


----------



## TheVioletKing

My bad, that was just a typo, I meant "*like*". Sorry for being a failure


----------



## samurai

@ VioletKing, No failure at all; typos happen all the time with me. :wave: No need to apologize or feel that way.


----------



## neoshredder

Beethoven's 6th is my favorite. The first movement is sublime.


----------



## Bone

I started my Beethoven listening with #1 and it still probably my favorite. To start your symphonic writing career with an ending (authentic cadence) is just perfect irony.


----------



## Mahlerian

Bone said:


> I started my Beethoven listening with #1 and it still probably my favorite. To start your symphonic writing career with an ending (authentic cadence) is just perfect irony.


In the wrong key, no less! It's a great symphony for sure. My putting it below the others says nothing bad about it, just great things about them.


----------



## KenOC

A contemporary review (1804) of the 1st Symphony: "The third (concert), on November 15th, began with the excellent Symphony in C Major by Beethoven that was received with so much well-deserved applause in last year's concerts...This great symphony, this wonderful clear masterwork by B. which is full of harmony and still lacks all bizarre elements, was executed with taste and energy. How splendidly did the first Allegro sway back and forth in its emotional storms and effects! How pleasantly did the Quasi-Allegretto calm the excited senses! How unsurpassingly beautifully did the wind instruments play the 'singing' in the Trio of the minuet, in which the violins executed the progressing motions in entire synchrony! This was not quite the case at the beginning of the finale which is, after all, very difficult with such a number of players and where the most precise synchronicity in bow movement and expression is asked for! The overall performance, however, was splendid."


----------



## realdealblues

After discovering some new recordings, I'm inclined I am revise my list:

Symphony #1
Symphony #7
Symphony #4
Symphony #5
Symphony #9
Symphony #8
Symphony #3
Symphony #6
Symphony #2


----------



## DavidA

I must confess to playing Beethoven symphonies as the mood takes me. But as to my favourites the ones which appear most often on my CD player are 3,6,9. The sequence is co-incidental but doubt Dan Brown would make some conspiracy theory out of it.


----------



## Bone

DavidA said:


> I must confess to playing Beethoven symphonies as the mood takes me. But as to my favourites the ones which appear most often on my CD player are 3,6,9. The sequence is co-incidental but doubt Dan Brown would make some conspiracy theory out of it.


I don't care who you are, that's funny.


----------



## daveh

As basically a newcomer to classical music (not to mention a newcomer to these forums), I thought I'd take a shot at putting together a list. For whatever reason, early in my journey through classical music, I have been drawn mainly to symphonies. As others obviously know, not a bad one here. And I am separating them into tiers too, meaning that those on the same tier are virtually interchangeable depending on my mood at the moment.

6
5
4

7
9
3

8
2
1


----------



## Novelette

A lot of people gainsay the greatness of the C Major Symphony.

But it has a freshness and youthful exuberance about it, likewise with the B Flat Symphony. Honestly, there is no symphony of Beethoven's that deserves to be overlooked. There is so much variety among them.


----------



## KenOC

Novelette said:


> A lot of people gainsay the greatness of the C Major Symphony.
> 
> But it has a freshness and youthful exuberance about it, likewise with the B Flat Symphony. Honestly, there is no symphony of Beethoven's that deserves to be overlooked. There is so much variety among them.


I may have posted this before -- a contemporary (1804) review of 1st Symphony:

"The third (concert), on November 15th, began with the excellent Symphony in C Major by Beethoven that was received with so much well-deserved applause in last year's concerts...This great symphony, this wonderful clear masterwork by B. which is full of harmony and still lacks all bizarre elements, was executed with taste and energy. How splendidly did the first Allegro sway back and forth in its emotional storms and effects! How pleasantly did the Quasi-Allegretto calm the excited senses! How unsurpassingly beautifully did the wind instruments play the 'singing' in the Trio of the minuet, in which the violins executed the progressing motions in entire synchrony! This was not quite the case at the beginning of the finale which is, after all, very difficult with such a number of players and where the most precise synchronicity in bow movement and expression is asked for! The overall performance, however, was splendid."


----------



## opus55

I haven't listened to them whole lot lately but my current list is

1 - Karajan '63 and Szell helped me appreciate this classical symphony
6
7
5
3
9
8
4
2


----------



## lovesbeethoven

1. Sixth
2. Ninth
3. Fourth
4. Fifth
5. First
6. Third
7. Seventh
8. Eighth
9. Second


----------



## tankership

6th
3rd
9th
5th
7th
2nd
4th
8th
1st
2nd


----------



## classicool

*Favorite one: Violin Concerto !?*

My favorite Beethoven symphony is the Violin Concerto! See below for explanation

Of all his masterful works, I think the Violin Concerto is one of the most remarkable. From the bold simplicity of the opening 4 quarter notes played on, of all instruments, the timpani (!) to the memorable lyricism inherent in both the violin and the orchestral statements, the work takes on the sensibility of a symphony on a grand scale. It's one of his most underperformed pieces, but below is info on a rare opportunity to hear a masterful rendition of this composition. May you enjoy all your Beethoven listening.

ALL BEETHOVEN!

When:
Feb. 19th, 8pm

Where:
Good Shepherd-Faith Presbyterian Church
152 W. 66th St., New York, NY 10023
(between Broadway & Amsterdam Ave.)
1 train at 66th St.-Lincoln Center

What:
All Beethoven! His monumental Violin Concerto performed by New York's Nova Philharmonic and the legendary Daniel Phillips. Visionary maestro Dong-Hyun Kim also conducts the First Symphony. Phillips has performed and recorded with such legends as Yo-Yo Ma and is a founder of the acclaimed Orion String Quartet, which has residencies at Lincoln Center's Chamber Music Society and has had works written for them by the likes of Wynton Marsalis and Chick Corea. The Nova Philharmonic regularly performs the masterworks of the symphonic repertoire while working with some of classical music's most noteworthy soloists.

Program:
Beethoven Violin Concerto
Beethoven Symphony No. 1

Tickets:
$25, $15 seniors/students

Website:
www.novaphil.blog.me

Contact:
[email protected]


----------



## sharik

Gustav said:


> Best Beethoven symphonies


his 9th is the best not only of his but also of all symphonies ever written, actually the 9th is more than just symphony, its a message, almost ideological by nature.


----------



## ahammel

DavidA said:


> I must confess to playing Beethoven symphonies as the mood takes me. But as to my favourites the ones which appear most often on my CD player are 3,6,9. The sequence is co-incidental but doubt Dan Brown would make some conspiracy theory out of it.


All the multiples of 3 have nicknames, and all the prime-numbered symphonies start with a loud chord.

Therefore: Beethoven was secretly and Illuminati Freemason space-lizard relative of Jesus, or something.


----------



## ptr

I almost wish that Witt's Jena Symphony had been by Beethoven, life had been so much more fun then!

I rarely listen to the ninth, feel it's way way overrated piece of inconsistency, on the whole I think that 4, 6 & 8 are the one's that get the most spinn at casa pi..

/ptr


----------



## oogabooha

it's really changed for me, I guess. 

6
9
1
3
4
7
8
5
2


----------



## JCarmel

Like ptr...I rarely listen to the 9th, I don't think it's Beethoven's best and I'm fed-up with the fact that it gets dragged-out whenever there's something to be ponderously remembered or celebrated in the European Union. 
When I was a teenager though, I loved the last movement and used to sing it out aloud as I was stationed defensively in one the 'Back' positions on the school Hockey field. There were so many long stretches of in-action down my end of the field... and I sang 'Freude Schoner Gotterfunken' so enthusiastically and loudly, that the other half of the Back defence was soon joining-in with me, when we played in the same team. She questioned me once, as we finished a particularly rousing rendition of it ...what on _earth_ is it that I'm singing?!! 'The last movement of Beethovens 9th' I told her.
Ooh?!...she replied..._really_?!


----------



## Guest

According to my iTunes records, here are the symphonies in order of how many times I have listened to them:

6
9
7
3
5
1
4
8
2


----------



## ajesh

1. Third
2. Seventh
3. Ninth
4. Sixth
5. Fifth

6. Eighth
7. Second
8. First
9. Fourth

The top 5 are in a slightly different league to the bottom 4. But there are some extremely enjoyable movements in them like the 4th Movement from the 1st and 2nd symphonies and the second movement of the 8th.


----------



## julianoq

I find amazing how people's opinion in this thread is almost "random". In most composers threads there are always a few symphonies that are the favorites of most people, the fact that we can't achieve any conclusion from this thread (except maybe for the 6 that is on almost everybody top 3) is amazing and in imo proves how fantastic is Beethoven's cycle.

Also I just can't figure out my ranking yet, I just love them all


----------



## Avey

The _Pastoral_.

9
7
3
5
8
4
2
1


----------



## waldvogel

1. 9th
2. 3rd
3. 8th
4. 7th
5. 6th
6. 4th
7. 2nd 
8. 5th
9. 1st

I would assume that my only really controversial placements are my high opinion of the 8th, and my relatively low opinion of the 5th. Keep in mind that would still place the 5th in my list of the top 50 symphonies ever written...

I do find the second movement of the fifth to be one of Beethoven's weaker sets of variations, and the finale to be one hugely overblown and overextended piece that just is one of Beethoven's weakest movements in any genre.

On the other hand, has anyone other than Haydn ever produced such a brilliantly funny, exciting, and cohesive symphony as the Eighth? Every movement integrates so well with the others. The first movement has an incredibly dramatic development, the second movement has its famed quirky humour. I think of the third movement - a minuet, of all things - to be the first example of neoclassicism. Beethoven wrote this in 1812; I wonder if he was thinking of Haydn, who had died in 1809 and who had been the greatest symphonist of his era.

And the fourth movement - with its insistently loud flattened sixth... sounds like a mistake, but insists on itself, pounding itself into the development until you know that it's exactly what it takes to drive the movement forwards. What a finale!


----------



## KenOC

waldvogel said:


> I do find the second movement of the fifth to be one of Beethoven's weaker sets of variations, and the finale to be one hugely overblown and overextended piece that just is one of Beethoven's weakest movements in any genre.


Actually the finale of the 5th is just fine, but it ends too soon. I want more dominant, more tonic!


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

4
2
1
8
6
3
7
5
9

And no, I did not write that upside down. :lol:


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

ptr said:


> I rarely listen to the ninth, feel it's way way overrated piece of inconsistency, on the whole I think that 4, 6 & 8 are the one's that get the most spinn at casa pi..
> 
> /ptr


I agree with you, sir! 
4, 6 and 8 (and 1 and 2) all feel like they are a well constructed whole, even though the 9th is very popular and groundbreaking in terms of length and instrumentation I believe there to be a lot of cuts that could have been made...he says what he needs to say but he does spend a lot of time saying it. I feel like the symphony would have been better with a recurring theme also...I base my positioning of this symphony (at th bottom) my own subjective response to it overall. If it was a symphony in one movement (the last movement) I would place it higher. The last movement has everything. It can be analysed in terms of four movements, the recurring themes throughout, it is after all in an expanded/developed theme and variation form. For me it's the first three movements that really let me down. They seem to have nothing to do with the finale except to make the finale the finale and lengthen the whole symphony into four actual movements. The first three movements would be much nicer with an instrumental finale to fit with the idea of absolute music, instrumental music etc.


----------



## aleazk

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I agree with you, sir!
> 4, 6 and 8 (and 1 and 2) all feel like they are a well constructed whole, even though the 9th is very popular and groundbreaking in terms of length and instrumentation I believe there to be a lot of cuts that could have been made...he says what he needs to say but he does spend a lot of time saying it. I feel like the symphony would have been better with a recurring theme also...I base my positioning of this symphony (at th bottom) my own subjective response to it overall. If it was a symphony in one movement (the last movement) I would place it higher. The last movement has everything. It can be analysed in terms of four movements, the recurring themes throughout, it is after all in an expanded/developed theme and variation form. For me it's the first three movements that really let me down. They seem to have nothing to do with the finale except to make the finale the finale and lengthen the whole symphony into four actual movements. The first three movements would be much nicer with an instrumental finale to fit with the idea of absolute music, instrumental music etc.


So... write a letter to Beethoven and explain to him how he should write his symphony...


----------



## neoshredder

The problem with Beethoven is he doesn't sound like *Ligeti*.  Old habit there. haha


----------



## KenOC

aleazk said:


> So... write a letter to Beethoven and explain to him how he should write his symphony...


I actually tried that. Wrote Beethoven a letter with some tips on the 2nd movement of his Op. 132 quartet which (let's face it) is way long and way tedious. You know what he wrote back? "O du elender Schuft! Was ich scheisse, ist besser als du je gedacht!" Had to run that through Google translate...

Just see if I try to help _him _out again!


----------



## neoshredder

KenOC said:


> I actually tried that. Wrote Beethoven a letter with some tips on the 2nd movement of his Op. 132 quartet which (let's face it) is way long and way tedious. You know what he wrote back? "O du elender Schuft! Was ich scheisse, ist besser als du je gedacht!" Had to run that through Google translate...
> 
> Just see if I try to help _him _out again!


I heard Beethoven is a big fan of facebook.


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

1. 9th
2. 8th
3. 7th
4. 6th
5. 5th
6. 4th
7. 3rd
8. 2nd
9. 1st

I'm a serial kinda guy..............


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

aleazk said:


> So... write a letter to Beethoven and explain to him how he should write his symphony...


I've actually been considering sending him an email on the shoddy viola, cello and bass parts at bars 668-669 of the first movement of the Eroica. He should have continued up the arpeggio in bar 668 and in 669 an E flat sforzando a tenth above the C written and held for half the bar before descending by arpeggio again into the notes of bar 670 to add to the tension. It would sound so much better!!!


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

neoshredder said:


> The problem with Beethoven is he doesn't sound like *Ligeti*.  Old habit there. haha


*Sibelius* 

blank text


----------



## KenOC

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Sibelius


Believe you mean *Segerstam*...


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

KenOC said:


> ComposerOfAvantGarde said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Sibelius*
> 
> blank text
> 
> 
> 
> Believe you mean *Sibelius*!!!
Click to expand...

Fixed that for you.


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Segerelius!!!


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Segerelius!!!


Is that from Harry Potter? :lol:


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

^ I think so............ But if you try googling it, I think it is a viking of some kind!


----------



## Tombstoner

I have been doing some listening and reconsidering of my "ranking," though I don't care as much for anything classical as I once did. My list has gradually been approaching CoAG's.

4
7
6
2
5
1
8
9
3

The one primary factor in the order of these is my taste for more dramatic symphonies. I find that generally when I listen to a more emotionally charged work, I feel somewhat dragged down. Of course, these symphonies do have their time and place, but I find that I do not go to Beethoven when I want something more intense. When it comes to symphonies which are deep rather than just enjoyable, I find that Bruckner (as well as Mahler to a lesser extent) outclasses Beethoven entirely. I know this is not the popular opinion.

IMO, Number 4 certainly has the most "pick up and listen" feel about it, and manages to be pleasant without taking itself too seriously. This is the symphony which I could randomly decide to listen to without having to feel the "drag", and more importantly which I could spontaneously decide to listen to any movement from.

Number 7 was my long-time favorite, and I have similar views of it compared to 4. I feel it's a bit more heavy emotionally than 4, though, even if that heaviness goes in to making it more upbeat. What makes me place it below 4, however, is primarily the second movement. It's a fine composition on its own, but I feel its juxtaposition with the other three movements ruins it in a way, and by extension the symphony as a whole. Fortunately, the scherzo and finale provide an ample lift from it, unlike a certain other case (the Pastoral).

Number 6 has an emotional weight somewhere between the former two in my list, and has a very mellow quality to it. I return to it less often mainly because of the very pastoral feel of it, which I don't tend to find myself drawn to. I also have a similar gripe with the "storm" as I do with the Allegretto of 7: to me, it just doesn't fit. I don't care what sort of personal issues Beethoven was trying to express, but having that movement in there damages the whole symphony in my opinion. Luckily I rarely listen to symphonies all the way through, so this doesn't tend to be an issue.

The second is one which I'm starting to find I like quite a lot. It seems to have a strong "I don't care" vibe throughout, one which we don't seem to see again in the cycle. It's still growing on me, though.

5 is an interesting case. As I mentioned above, symphonic drama is not generally my kind of thing anymore. If it were in, say, E minor, it would probably have dropped far lower, but C minor doesn't provide the "drag" which many other minor keys do, and it goes toward it sounding more fun than dark IMO.

8 and 1 are just kind of...there. I don't have strong opinions on either of them.

I love the first two movements of number 9, am ambivalent about the adagio, and detest the finale. I could go on for a while about my changing opinions on this work, but it wouldn't be worth it.

3 overall just bores me. Unlike the 9th, there isn't a movement I can really say I like from it.


----------



## Guest

I prefer the 3rd above all others as it represents a turning point in Beethoven's creative style - towards a more 'heroic' aesthetic. Of course, this doesn't apply to all his works but, as it happens, I've just delivered a lecture on "Beethoven and heroics" and I argued the following:

"The task Beethoven would set himself in his late music would be the portrayal of heroism without heroics, without heroes"(Solomon).

The lecture went well and I've been invited to present it on a university FM radio station.


----------



## astronautnic

As for the preference of the 3rd I'm quite with you there CA....

1. 3rd
2. 5th
3. 6th 
4. 7th
5. 2nd 
6. 9th
7. 8th
8. 4th
9. 1st


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

4
2
1
8
6
5
7
3
9


----------



## KenOC

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> 4
> 2
> 1
> 8
> 6
> 5
> 7
> 3
> 9


The 4th has been called the most technically perfect of Beethoven's symphonies. But you've got the 7th entirely in the wrong place...


----------



## Avey

Tombstoner said:


> Number 6 has an emotional weight somewhere between the former two in my list, and has a very mellow quality to it. I return to it less often mainly because of the very pastoral feel of it, which I don't tend to find myself drawn to. I also have a similar gripe with the "storm" as I do with the Allegretto of 7: to me, it just doesn't fit. I don't care what sort of personal issues Beethoven was trying to express, but having that movement in there damages the whole symphony in my opinion.


Ow. Without the storm, there's no release in the work. It begins joyfully, continues joyfully, and ends in catharsis. The finale movement is nowhere near as perfect as it feels without the torment of _the storm_ preceding it, breaking up that gaiety.



Tombstoner said:


> Luckily I rarely listen to symphonies all the way through, so this doesn't tend to be an issue.


...I would submit that this _is_ the issue here.



Tombstoner said:


> I love the first two movements of number 9, am ambivalent about the adagio, and detest the finale. I could go on for a while about my changing opinions on this work, but it wouldn't be worth it.


Ah! Ambivalent about the adagio!?

_That adagio_?!


----------



## CoCo

I like numbers 7, 3 and 6...in descending order!


----------



## 4'33"

I find some of the comments on this thread to be hilarious and obviously written to attract attention. I love the comments that rank the 9th last, or the ones that suggest parts of the symphonies should have been written better or edited. Or especially the one that claims that Bruckner outclasses Beethoven. Now that is funny! 

Since this thread was supposed to be ranking the best symphonies as opposed to favorites, I would list them in descending order as such:

9
3
5
7
8
4
6
2
1

My favorites in descending order are:

3
7
4
9
5
8
2
6
1

Favorite recordings: Period Instr - Gardiner Modern Instr. - Riccardo Chailly with the Gewandhaus Orch.


----------



## Art Rock

What is your criterion for "best" vis-a-vis "favorite"?


----------



## Guest

Art Rock said:


> What is your criterion for "best" vis-a-vis "favorite"?


Please, don't start that one.

My latest ranking has been arrived at by listening to all the symphonies as background music in the office last week and today, but then 5 on headphones while cooking last night. Then yesterday someone here reminded me how the 3rd movement in the 9th drags on a bit!

5,8,7,9,3 =1st
1,2,4=2nd (COAG...note that promotion for 4)
6=3rd


----------



## KenOC

Maybe instead of choosing among excellences, it might be better to ask: Which are Beethoven's WORST symphonies? :devil:


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

My opinion has changed....the order of favourite to least favourite are as follows..........

4
1
2
6
8
3
5
7
9


----------



## Tristan

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> My opinion has changed....the order of favourite to least favourite are as follows..........
> 
> 4
> 1
> 2
> 6
> 8
> 3
> 5
> 7
> 9


You're such a hipster


----------



## Guest

I was about to post that, rather than put the symphonies in order, it's perhaps better to put the movements of symphonies in order. I would then have gone on to generalise and say that I would have put all the slow movements last.

However, it's not easy to pick out all the 'slow' movements - the 5th doesn't really have one, which is what makes the whole so exciting - as he played about so much with tempo markings.

[Edited] The man likes a scherzo! [thanks ahammel for pointing out my error]


----------



## ahammel

MacLeod said:


> I was about to post that, rather than put the symphonies in order, it's perhaps better to put the movements of symphonies in order. I would then have gone on to generalise and say that I would have put all the slow movements last.


Wow, really? Including the 3rd and the 9th?



MacLeod said:


> The man's a scherzo!


He's a joke?


----------



## jani

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> My opinion has changed....the order of favourite to least favourite are as follows..........
> 
> 4
> 1
> 2
> 6
> 8
> 3
> 5
> 7
> 9


It seems that the forum software accidently tunrned your post upside down.


----------



## Guest

ahammel said:


> Wow, really? Including the 3rd and the 9th?
> 
> He's a joke?


Whoops - meant to say 'He likes a scherzo'

Yes, including the 3rd and the 9th - they're both too long.


----------



## unpocoscherzando

7
9
3
8
6
5
1
2
4


----------



## neoshredder

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> My opinion has changed....the order of favourite to least favourite are as follows..........
> 
> 4
> 1
> 2
> 6
> 8
> 3
> 5
> 7
> 9


Pretty close to my current list.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

4
2
3
1
6
8
7
5
9


----------



## neoshredder

I would say now. 
4
1 
6
5
3
2
7
8
9


----------



## Guest

8
5
9
7
3
1
2
4
6 .


----------



## neoshredder

MacLeod said:


> 8
> 5
> 9
> 7
> 3
> 1
> 2
> 4
> 6 .


That list is *wrong* .


----------



## Guest

neoshredder said:


> That list is *wrong* .


:lol: As always neo, your insight and opinions are greatly valued!


----------



## Cheyenne

7
4
3
8
5
9
-----------
1
2
6

I'm glad Macleod shows a distaste for number 6 as well.. I used to like it a lot, but apparently over-listened to it and by now I can't really find anything in it anymore.


----------



## Bas

9 
7
6 
3 / 5
4 
1
2


----------



## Guest

Cheyenne said:


> I'm glad Macleod shows a distaste for number 6 as well.. I used to like it a lot, but apparently over-listened to it and by now I can't really find anything in it anymore.


Distaste might be putting it a little strongly. It was the first I became familiar and then overfamiliar with, so I listen to it least of all, as I get more out of the others that I've only heard at all within the last two years - 1,2,4,8 for example.


----------



## Geoff

3
9
7
5,6,8
4
2
1

Can't choose between 5, 6 & 8 - depends on the mood I am in
Favourite version of No 3 is E Kleiber/Vienna PO


----------



## Vesteralen

My feelings on this have changed recently. After finally hearing a very satisfying 9th I prefer them in this order:

9
7
4
2
1
6
5
8
3


----------



## realdealblues

After listening to 2 full cycles recently I'm inclined to revise my list yet again:

Symphony #1
Symphony #4
Symphony #8
Symphony #7
Symphony #5
Symphony #9
Symphony #3
Symphony #6
Symphony #2


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Geoff said:


> 3
> 9
> 7
> 5,6,8
> 4
> 2
> 1
> 
> Can't choose between 5, 6 & 8 - depends on the mood I am in
> Favourite version of No 3 is E Kleiber/Vienna PO


Why do you like that recording? Most people I know really do not like it....just curious.


----------



## Geoff

Kleiber/VPO was the first recording of the Eroica I ever heard or owned. Fairly quickly it was replaced by Bernstein/NYPO and it was many years before I came back to it. After extensive listening to other conductors, Kleiber is now my favourite interpreter of the Beethoven symphonies (a great shame he didn't record them all) and his Vienna recording of the Eroica my favourite. I find his his reading has dynamism and drama and his tempi are near perfect.


----------



## Baeron

My ranking Goes like this:

9th: Just the great ninth ><
7th: If the name wasn't aleready taken I would call it the ''Fantastique!''
3rd: The first emotionally deep symphony ever written
5th: Again, a masterwork....
1st: Great symphony With a great bunch of ideas for its time !
4th: Maybe the lightest of them all !
8th: THE METRONOOOOOOOOOME
2nd: Good
6th: Any proposition of recordings ? (Real Question): everytime I get to listen to it, it makes me want to sleep ><

I strongly recommend Paavo Jarvi's Cycle with the ''Deutches Kammerphilharmonie Bremen'' to understand my ranking.
These versions throws away all the heavyness of the actual orchestras and brings back the lightness of Beethoven's style.... You'll understad when you will listen


----------



## adam

Can't really speak to specific recordings:

6
3
5,9
8
7
1
4
2


----------



## KenOC

The order of preferences in this thread seem to be almost entirely random! Maybe that says something...


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

KenOC said:


> The order of preferences in this thread seem to be almost entirely random! Maybe that says something...


Why would you say random? I don't see anything random about them, all I see is a representation of the high level of diversity of TC members' preferences.

Actually I could use this thread as a basis for an aleatoric piece of music........


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

4
2
3
1
6
7
8
5
9


----------



## LFTBR

My silly thought of the morning (without having plowed thru all 36 pages of this thread):

The best Beethoven Symphony is: all of them 

But my personal preference order is:

4, 7, 3, 2, 5, 8, 6, 1, 9

There's just something so naively magical about the 4th. I never get tired of it!


----------



## Cosmos

My list:

3
9
7
6
5
8
1&2
and then 4 being waaaaaaaaay below


----------



## nightscape

Here we go:

9
7
5
4
8
3
6
2
1

Please keep in mind that this list does not indicate degrees of "good to bad". I don't mean to give the impression that since Sympnony No. 6 is third from last, that that in some way means I don't like it. Hardly. That's a risk you take when you rank something in descending order. With the exception of Beethoven's first two Symphonies, which do not interest me much, the other ones are separated by varying degrees of 'good', with his 9th being superhuman.


----------



## Schumann

_Best Beethoven's symphonies to me:_

Symphony #1 In C, Op. 21 - 4. Finale: Adagio, Allegro Molto E Vivace
Symphony #2 In D, Op. 36 - 1. Adagio Molto, Allegro Con Brio
Symphony #5 In C Minor, Op. 67 - 1. Allegro Con Brio
Symphony #6 In F, Op. 68, "Pastoral" - 4. Allegro
Symphony #7 In A, Op. 92 - 2. Allegretto
Symphony #9 In D Minor, Op. 125, "Choral" - 4A. Presto


----------



## Itullian

I'd have to go with the ones that move me the most. So........

6
9
3
5
the rest.


----------



## Art Rock

Schumann said:


> _Best Beethoven's symphonies to me:_
> 
> Symphony #1 In C, Op. 21 - 4. Finale: Adagio, Allegro Molto E Vivace
> Symphony #2 In D, Op. 36 - 1. Adagio Molto, Allegro Con Brio
> Symphony #5 In C Minor, Op. 67 - 1. Allegro Con Brio
> Symphony #6 In F, Op. 68, "Pastoral" - 4. Allegro
> Symphony #7 In A, Op. 92 - 2. Allegretto
> Symphony #9 In D Minor, Op. 125, "Choral" - 4A. Presto


These are movements, not symphonies.


----------



## Schumann

Exactly, difficult to select a whole symphony above movements. That's why this is more precise and clear but I do understand the "thread" is not a good title though.


----------



## jimsumner

Seems like a very curious way to evaluate Beethoven. Or anybody. It's like picking your favorite Tolstoy chapters.


----------



## Cygnenoir

They're all masterpieces, but I tend to put them on each their own podiums.

Gold: 9, 3, 7.
Silver: 6, 5, 4.
Bronze: 8, 1, 2.


----------



## afterpostjack

berghansson said:


> They're all masterpieces, but I tend to put them on each their own podiums.
> 
> Gold: 9, 3, 7.
> Silver: 6, 5, 4.
> Bronze: 8, 1, 2.


I think this is what I do with Bruckner symphonies:

Gold: 4, 7, 8
Silver: 3, 5, 9
Bronze: 1, 2, 6

For Beethoven it is very similar:

Gold: 4, 7, 9
Silver: 3, 5, 8
Bronze: 1, 2, 6


----------



## chrisco97

*1.* 6
*2.* 3
*3.* 5
*4.* 7
*5.* 8
*6.* 9
*7.* 4
*8.* 1
*9.* 2

That is how it stands for me right now. I listen to the Beethoven symphonies all of the time though, so rankings may change in the future. I still have yet to give multiple listens to a few, and some of them I have not heard all the way through with focused listening.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> 4
> 2
> 3
> 1
> 6
> 7
> 8
> 5
> 9


Swapping 7 and 5


----------



## Celloman

All of them.

But the 6th is my favorite.


----------



## DaDirkNL

My rank is:
1. 3 'Eroica'
2. 7
3. 9
4. 5
5. 6 'Pastorale'
6. 8
7. 4
8. 2
9. 1


----------



## SixFootScowl

I am still sorting them all out, but for sure the Ninth and Eroica are at the top of my list.


----------



## gellio

6
9
7
5
3
8
4
2
1


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

6, 9, 7, 8, 3, 1, 5, 2, 4.


----------



## EDaddy

In order from my favorite down:


#3
#9
#5
#7
#6
the rest are a toss up


----------



## neoshredder

#6 had to inspire Sibelius. That one almost feels like a Sibelius Symphony.


----------



## scratchgolf

After revisiting these with some new versions...

6
9
2
5
7
4
3
8
1


----------



## nightscape

9
5
3
7
4
6
1
2
8


----------



## AH music

7 - Each movement contrasts yet works as a whole. 1st movement an absolute masterpiece. Stunning work, in my top 3 symphonies of all time (with Nielsen 3 and Schubert 9).
9 - Love the middle two movements especially. Would probably appreciate the finale more in live performance. 
8 - A joy.
5 - No comment needed, spoiled somewhat at the very end, but still usually get swept away by the power of the music.
2 - Deserves a higher place, in my estimation, than most people give.
3 equal with 4 - Great, understand the musical revolution, just don't quite love it (perversely, rather like the finale though)
4 equal with 3 - Would rank highly in any other company.
6 - Probably my earliest "favourite" symphony, but one that has somehow slipped in my affections. Still very fine, and rather taking myself by surprise with this placing but not moved to change it. 
1 - Fine, but in exalted company amongst all the others. 

Admit to subjectivity and personal favourites rather than any attempt at assessing what are the "best". Nos 2, 3, 4 & 6 all pretty close together in my reckoning.


----------



## scratchgolf

AH music said:


> 2 - Deserves a higher place, in my estimation, than most people give.


Quite agreed. Beethoven 2 and Schubert 9 are my 2 favorite opening movements in symphonic history.


----------



## shangoyal

AH music said:


> 7 - Each movement contrasts yet works as a whole. 1st movement an absolute masterpiece. Stunning work, in my top 3 symphonies of all time (with Nielsen 3 and Schubert 9).
> 9 - Love the middle two movements especially. Would probably appreciate the finale more in live performance.
> 8 - A joy.
> 5 - No comment needed, spoiled somewhat at the very end, but still usually get swept away by the power of the music.
> 2 - Deserves a higher place, in my estimation, than most people give.
> 3 equal with 4 - Great, understand the musical revolution, just don't quite love it (perversely, rather like the finale though)
> 4 equal with 3 - Would rank highly in any other company.
> 6 - Probably my earliest "favourite" symphony, but one that has somehow slipped in my affections. Still very fine, and rather taking myself by surprise with this placing but not moved to change it.
> 1 - Fine, but in exalted company amongst all the others.
> 
> Admit to subjectivity and personal favourites rather than any attempt at assessing what are the "best". Nos 2, 3, 4 & 6 all pretty close together in my reckoning.


This is close to my reckoning of the symphonies. 7, 8 and 9 are my top 3 any day.


----------



## KenOC

Beethoven's own view, from a time before he wrote the 9th:

"One evening when B. was in a good humor, Kueffner began: `Tell me frankly which is your favorite among your symphonies?' B. (in good humor) 'Eh! Eh! The Eroica.' K. 'I should have guessed the C minor.' B. 'No; the Eroica.' "


----------



## hpowders

Shows the composer is not always the best judge of the worth of his own music.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

The fifth is amazing. Every movement is a masterpiece.


----------



## SixFootScowl

DavidA said:


> I must confess to playing Beethoven symphonies as the mood takes me. But as to my favourites the ones which appear most often on my CD player are 3,6,9. The sequence is co-incidental but doubt Dan Brown would make some conspiracy theory out of it.


 My top three are 3, 6, and 9 (not necessarily in that order).

Maybe someone with way too much time on their hands will compile all the preference lists in this thread and report back the frequency distributions and rankings. It would be interesting to see where 3, 6, and 9 come out in that.


----------



## SixFootScowl

brianwalker said:


> Skip movements? Most people skip whole symphonies (1, 2, 4, 8).


There is a poll thread on which of those four is your favorite. Another interesting thing is that this forms a geometric progression of doubling numbers.


----------



## SixFootScowl

neoshredder said:


> Skip the first movement and the 5th Symphony sounds better. I love the ending of Symphony 5.


Very interesting point. As much as I could not skip the first movement of the 5th, it has been over played and that has been a negative thing. The only other Beethoven that has been more overplayed is Fur Elise which because of it is now just horrible.


----------



## SixFootScowl

BeethoFan said:


> Good for Hector Berlioz. Why should i value his opinion more over mine?


Hector Berloiz was far more qualified to discuss Beethoven's symphonies than many of us are. Here is his Critical Study of Beethoven's Sumphonies, a document well worth reading for any fan of Beethoven's symphonies.


----------



## SixFootScowl

In case anyone is wondering why I keep posting to this thread. I am going backward through the 38 pages of it and liking every post that gives symphonies 3,6,and 9 good rankings. I wanted to up my likes given status. Currently have 475 likes given to 636 likes received and feel as though I owe a debt . Anyway, I still have 20 pages to go through, but really should be in bed. I don't know why I feel compelled to do this but do it I am. Must be that Beethoven fever that I was overtaken with last year.


----------



## KenOC

Florestan said:


> Hector Berloiz was far more qualified to discuss Beethoven's symphonies than many of us are. Here is his Critical Study of Beethoven's Sumphonies, a document well worth reading for any fan of Beethoven's symphonies.


Thank you for that link! I have never seen this.

Another good read on the symphonies (400+ pages) is Sir George Groves's "Beethoven and his Nine Symphonies," published ca. 1896-8 -- Dover books, paperback. A wonderful book, almost magical. The book is sprinkled with musical quotes illustrating the text. Availability varies, very cheap used (on Amazon). I cut my teeth on this.

BTW, what exactly does "cut my teeth" mean? Sounds painful.

http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Sym...-1&keywords=grove+beethoven's+nine+symphonies


----------



## SixFootScowl

KenOC said:


> Thank you for that link! I have never seen this.
> 
> Another good read on the symphonies (400+ pages) is Sir George Groves's "Beethoven and his Nine Symphonies," published ca. 1896-8 -- Dover books, paperback. A wonderful book, almost magical. The book is sprinkled with musical quotes illustrating the text. Availability varies, very cheap used (on Amazon). I cut my teeth on this.
> 
> BTW, what exactly does "cut my teeth" mean? Sounds painful.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Sym...-1&keywords=grove+beethoven's+nine+symphonies


Thanks, I just ordered the book you referenced. A penny plus shipping for a good used copy. Here is a great Beethoven book that is a free download: Beethoven the Creator. Has chapters on the Appassionata, the Eroica, Leonora, his hearing loss, and the women in his life. Uses original source materials. Hundreds of references to document the text. On the left where it says View the Book, right click on PDF and pick "Save Link As". This will download it to your computer.

Cutting teeth is what babies do when their teeth push through their gums. It hurts. When it happens they like to chew on stuff, so people give them teething rings. Metaphorically (guess it is a metaphor) it means you really know something well, having a great deal of long term experience.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Webernite said:


> I like the 8th a great deal and I think it's underrated, but aesthetically speaking the 9th and the 3rd are the best: the Funeral March is extraordinary, although, from what I remember, the Scherzo (of the 3rd) is something of a failure.


I recall reading that Beethoven thought the 8th a better symphony than the 7th, and was disappointed at how much the 8th was passed over for the 7th.


----------



## SixFootScowl

tri2061990 said:


> my favourites
> 3 Bernstein
> 5 Mravinsky,Bernstein
> 6 Abbado
> 7 Kleiber
> 9 Fricsay












I have heard about 30 Ninths and by far Friscay is the best! The voices are all wonderful and this recording has a remarkable clarity compared to most.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Johnny said:


> Anyone else not really dig vocals in Classical music? I sometimes don't mind a full chorus, it's mostly the solo people that irritate me. In Beethoven's 9th, for example.


It was in Beethoven's Ninth that I first liked vocals in classical. I think the robust sounds of the German language helped solidify the experience and I still love sung German the best of the foreign (to me) languages. My second vocal classical like was Handel's Messiah. Other than those I shunned vocal classical music--until about a year or so ago when I turned 180 degrees and hardly would listen to anything not vocal. Now I have a healthy mix of vocal and instrumental on my current rotation.

Soloists were my preference because of clarity. Choral music so often sounds muddied or garbled if the recording is not just right, or perhaps the singers are a little out of sinc by a milisecond or so--not exactly sure. But the choral parts in Brahms German Requiem last Friday night at the acoustically superb Hill Auditorium on the campus of the University of Michigan were very clear and beautiful. I do like both soloists and choral now.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Rankings compiled and posted on March 31, 2010:


SPR said:


> I re-tabulated the results in this thread. I only included complete ranklings (all 9) and I did this quickly so skipped over any that were vague or incomplete.. I also skipped a couple that ordered 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9. I get *55* data sets.
> 
> I assigned 100 to 20 points. 1=100, 2=90, 3=70 etc.
> Results with total points are:
> 
> 1) 9th (4280)
> 2) 3rd (4150)
> 3) 5th (4060)
> 4) 7th (3890)
> 5) 8th (2450)
> 6) 6th (3720)
> 7) 4th (2510)
> 8) 1st (1800)
> 9) 2nd (1670)
> 
> ...


Hmm, from the numbers it seems the 8th should be after the 6th and 4th.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Cpt. Jack Sparrow said:


> My opinion [of Beethoven's Ninth]: The work of a complete madman. Monstrous and insane.


A remarkable assessment that will make my next listen even more enjoyable.


----------



## senza sordino

I do not own multiple copies of each symphony with multiple conductors and orchestras. This alone could alter opinion about which are favourite symphonies. 
I own the following
all nine with
View attachment 38880

and 5&7 on this disk
View attachment 38881


I've considered getting another cycle, perhaps Norrington

My ranking of the nine is
7, 3, 6, 9, 8, 1, 5, 2, 4


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

^^^^^^ Get Immerseel, he has a way with the fifth that really made me consider it more highly.


----------



## shadowdancer

No advertisement intended, but for those considering a new complete cycle, there is a complete set here at an outrageous price
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0033QC0WE/ref=cm_cr_asin_lnk


----------



## chalkpie

Never heard of him......


----------



## merlinus

Florestan said:


> I have heard about 30 Ninths and by far Friscay is the best! The voices are all wonderful and this recording has a remarkable clarity compared to most.


I am in the same boat, so to speak. Whilst interpretations by Giulini, Karajan '63, Wand, Furtwangler (1942, 1951, 1954), Klemperer, and Solti all have something to offer, Fricsay is the one I return to, again and again. Barenboim, Blomstedt, and Bernstein (NYPO and VPO) definitely miss the mark for me big-time.

I also very much like his 3, 5, and 7.


----------



## SixFootScowl

merlinus said:


> I am in the same boat, so to speak. Whilst interpretations by Giulini, Karajan '63, Wand, Furtwangler (1942, 1951, 1954), Klemperer, and Solti all have something to offer, Fricsay is the one I return to, again and again. Barenboim, Blomstedt, and Bernstein (NYPO and VPO) definitely miss the mark for me big-time.
> 
> I also very much like his 3, 5, and 7.


 I see I misspelled Fricsay. I have not heard the Furtwangler Ninth and have been told that is one that may be at the top of the list. But I doubt it can replace Fricsay. I have two Blomstedt's, one 1980 and one 1985. I really like the vocal at the Turkish March in the one, but forgot which it was.


----------



## shangoyal

Another ranking (not that the world needs it, but what the heck):

1st tier
3
9

2nd tier
7
8
5
6
4
2

3rd tier
1


----------



## SalieriIsInnocent

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> ^^^^^^ Get Immerseel, he has a way with the fifth that really made me consider it more highly.


The brass is so hidden in modern performances. I had no idea just how much was going on in that piece. It was always a favorite, but Immerseel takes it to another level. Immerseel doesn't hold the period orchestra back like many period conductors. It's the stormy Beethoven everybody knows. The 6th is equally exciting. I'll still take my 9th modern though.


----------



## DiesIraeCX

1) Beethoven 9 
Preferred Recording(s) - Karajan 1963, Toscanini 1952, Fricsay, 1958

2) Beethoven 5
Preferred Recordings(s) - Kleiber/VPO, Karajan 1963, Gardiner 2011/ORR (Live)

3) Beethoven 3
Preferred Recordings(s) - Zinman/Tonhalle Zurich

4) Beethoven 7
Preferred Recordings(s) - Kleiber/VPO

5) Beethoven 4
Preferred Recordings(s) - Zinman/Tonhalle Zurich, Karajan 1963, Gardiner 1994/ORR

6) Beethoven 8
Preferred Recordings(s) - Gardiner 1994/ORR

7) Beethoven 6
Preferred Recordings(s) - Gardiner 1994/ORR, Bruno Walter

8) Beethoven 2
Preferred Recordings(s) - Gardiner 1994/ORR

9) Beethoven 1
Preferred Recordings(s) - Gardiner 1994/ORR


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## Declined

In no particular order: 3, and everything after.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

4
2
3
1
7
6
8
9
5

I believe they are all very very close....but the above placements of the first four would have to be now definitive for me.


----------



## Winterreisender

My order: 6, 9, 7, 5, 3, 4, 8, 1, 2


----------



## thetrout

3, 9, 5, 7, 6, 4, 8, 2, 1

Something like that - granted, it has been a long time since I listened to 4 and 8. The 3rd is always first for me but the rest are somewhat open to change.


----------



## PetrB

Friends have told me his symphonies 1 thru 9 are pretty good.


----------



## neoshredder

PetrB said:


> Friends have told me his symphonies 1 thru 9 are pretty good.


Dude knew how to make Symphonies. And basically every genre he chose.


----------



## Ivansen

9, 5, 7, 3, 6, 8, 4, 1, 2 - But they change all the time.

Beethoven's symphonies are the greatest of human achievements in the arts.


----------



## Giordano

[3, 7, 5, 9], 6, 4, 8, 1, 2

3 7 5 9 are all equally good for/to/with me.


----------



## poconoron

My ranking:

#7,4,6,5,9,3,8,1,2


----------



## realdealblues

I should just give up because every week I feel the need to revise my rankings yet again

Symphony #1 - My Top Recording Choices: Karajan/Berlin (60's), Szell/Cleveland, Furtwangler/Vienna (1952), Toscanini/NBC, Chailly/Gewandhaus, Bernstein/DG

Symphony #3 - My Top Recording Choices: Szell/Cleveland, Munch/Boston, E. Kleiber/Concertgebouw Orchestra, Klemperer/Philharmonia (Both Mono & Stereo), Bernstein/Vienna

Symphony #9 - My Top Recording Choices: Fricsay/Berlin, Bohm/Vienna, Wand/NDR, Szell/Cleveland, Furtwanger/Philharmonia (Lucerne 54), Klemperer/Philharmonia, Kletzki/Czeck, Bernstein/Vienna, Karajan/Berlin (60's), Toscanini/NBC

Symphony #7 - My Top Recording Choices: Bernstein/Vienna, Wand/NDR, Szell/Cleveland, Kletzki/Czech, Dorati/London, Chailly/Gewandhaus

Symphony #5 - My Top Recording Choices: Karajan/Berlin (60's), Szell/Cleveland, E. Kleiber/Concertgebouw, Klemperer/Philharmonia (Mono & Stereo)

Symphony #4 - My Top Recording Choices: Bohm/Vienna, Haitink/London (LSO Live), Walter/Columbia, Jarvi/Bremen

Symphony #8 - My Top Recording Choices: Szell/Cleveland, Haitink/LSO (LSO Live), Kletzki/Czech, Chailly/Gewandhaus, Jarvi/Bremen

Symphony #6 - My Top Recording Choices: Bohm/Vienna, Kubelik/Orchestre de Paris, Walter/Columbia, Bernstein/Vienna, Szell/Cleveland, Klemperer/Philharmonia

Symphony #2 - My Top Recording Choices: Szell/Cleveland, Bernstein/New York, Chailly/Gewandhaus, Jarvi/Bremen


----------



## DiesIraeCX

realdealblues, very interesting, I rarely see someone with Symphony No. 1 as their favorite. Do you have a particular favorite movement from #1? I rarely give any time to symphonies 1 and 2, perhaps I should listen to them more.


----------



## realdealblues

DiesIraeVIX said:


> realdealblues, very interesting, I rarely see someone with Symphony No. 1 as their favorite. Do you have a particular favorite movement from #1? I rarely give any time to symphonies 1 and 2, perhaps I should listen to them more.


I just love everything about it. The 1st Movement and the 3rd movement are my favorites. While I can hear the Mozart and Haydn influence in sections, it's still undeniably Beethoven. It's always dismissed as nothing special much in the way Tchaikovsky's 1st or Mendelssohn's 1st symphonies are, but there are some remarkable moments that just resonate with me. I never tire of hearing it. I love how Furtwangler starts his recording with Vienna from 1952. It just grabs you and lets you know you're about to hear something special much in the way Brahms 1st symphony does. And that 3rd movement, oh, if I was a dancing man and living back in that time period, I couldn't think of a better way to spend the evening but with an entire room of intoxicated people happily dancing away to that movement while laughing up a storm. It's just special to me, much in the way your first child or your first love might be. It has everything without needing to go crazily deep like the 3rd or 5th or 9th.


----------



## DiesIraeCX

realdealblues said:


> I just love everything about it. The 1st Movement and the 3rd movement are my favorites. While I can hear the Mozart and Haydn influence in sections, it's still undeniably Beethoven. It's always dismissed as nothing special much in the way Tchaikovsky's 1st or Mendelssohn's 1st symphonies are, but there are some remarkable moments that just resonate with me. I never tire of hearing it. I love how Furtwangler starts his recording with Vienna from 1952. It just grabs you and lets you know you're about to hear something special much in the way Brahms 1st symphony does. And that 3rd movement, oh, if I was a dancing man and living back in that time period, I couldn't think of a better way to spend the evening but with an entire room of intoxicated people happily dancing away to that movement while laughing up a storm. It's just special to me, much in the way your first child or your first love might be. It has everything without needing to go crazily deep like the 3rd or 5th or 9th.


I'm sold! I have Karajan 1963 and Gardiner 1994, so time to give it another listen! Thanks.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

5
9
7
6
3
1
8
2
4


----------



## Johnnie Burgess

My order is 3,5,9,7,4,6,8,2,1. The order after the 9th could change.


----------



## martrepuS

9,5,6,3,7,8,2,1,4


----------



## haydnfan

My ranking is 3, 5, 7, 9, 4, 8, 6, 1, 2

With #3 being my absolute favorite. Only one of Mahler's symphonies receive more playtime than the Eroica.


----------



## elgar's ghost

I like all of them to the degree that I rarely play any in isolation - it usually has to be all nine in order. I do have favourites, though - the 3rd followed equally by the 5th and 7th.


----------



## vis756

My list is 3 (its second movement being the greatest piece of music I know), 4, 9, 7, 8, 2, 5, 1, 6.


----------



## Weston

On a side note, this thread is over then years old! How long has this forum been established anyway? I joined in 2008 and thought it was kind of new then. I never really explored the whole thing.

Oh -- favorite Beethoven symphonies? Like many others, the odd numbered ones starting with 3, though 8 has grown on me a lot too. No. 4 is an inexplicable yawn-fest to me. It feels like he's just going through the motions compared to most of the rest of his output.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

4
2
1
6
3
5
7
9
8


----------



## Sherkel

Time to join the club.

7
5
4
9
2
1
6
3
8


----------



## Art Rock

6
5
7
3
4
8
9
1
2


----------



## Machiavel

6, 9-5, 8-7-4, 2-1, 3


----------



## AClockworkOrange

Re-evaluating my favourite Beethoven Symphonies, it is hard because there are none that I dislike.

A rough order for me, starting with my favourite would be: 9, 4, 5, 8, 2, 3, 6, 7 and 1.

It looks much more severe on the First Symphony than intended.


----------



## Bayreuth

When I first read the title of the post I thought "Wow, ranking Beethoven's symphonies is one of the toughests assignments one could face in this forum". Then, thinking it through a little bit more, I realized it might actually be one of the easiest. It's 3-5-9 and then comes a pack to which I am -unacceptably- indifferent.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Well the bottom line is my favorite symphonies are Beethovens nine!


----------



## polonois

Should I have to rank Beethoven's symphonies, it would be :

#1 - 3rd Symphony (I have no word to describe the intensity of the 'marcia funebra', either listening to it or playing it)
#2 - 6th
#3 - 7th
#4 - 5th
#5 - 4th
#6 - 8th
#7 - 9th (I cannot stand the finale, otherwise it would have been at 3rd place)
#8 - 1st
#9 - 2nd


----------



## SixFootScowl

polonois said:


> #7 - 9th (I cannot stand the finale, otherwise it would have been at 3rd place)


I am curious. Is this because you do not like classical vocal music, choral music, or because you just don't care for the poem "Ode to Joy." You can also get Liszt's piano transcription of the Ninth and skip the vocals--I know, not the same as an orchestral movement. I wonder if anyone has done a 4th movement of the Ninth without the vocals?


----------



## polonois

Florestan said:


> I am curious. Is this because you do not like classical vocal music, choral music, or because you just don't care for the poem "Ode to Joy." You can also get Liszt's piano transcription of the Ninth and skip the vocals--I know, not the same as an orchestral movement. I wonder if anyone has done a 4th movement of the Ninth without the vocals?


Well I don't know for sure. As I was a kid, in my music school orchestra, we used to play the 'ode to joy' each year (no vocals). Moreover I would hear it almost everywhere, therefore I might have become "upset" of hearing it (which is not the case though for other symphonies that I have heard more often ).

As regards vocal music, I love it, be it a Passion, a Mass, etc. Some of my favorite pieces are vocal music (B-minor Mass, Rossini's Stabat Mater, The Armed Man by Jenkins and many more).

Maybe one day I will understand why I loathe it, but what is sure is that I'm not Alexander DeLarge in a Clockwork Orange :lol:


----------



## LHB

Favorite 7 5 2 6 9 1 3 Least Favorite

Haven't listened to 4 or 8 in a while, but they would be somewhere in the middle.


----------



## Classical Music Fan

my rankings and favorite performances (Subject to Change)
9 (Rattle for movements 1 and 3, Solti for 2 and 4) 
5 (Carlos Kleiber)
7 (Carlos Kleiber live)
3 (Herbert Blomstedt SFS)
6 (von Dohnanyl)
4 (Walter)
1 (Abbado BP)
2 (Abbado BP)
8 (Solti)


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

4
2
1
3
6
7
8
5
9


----------



## Sherkel

Do you post a new list every time you listen through the whole cycle?


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Sherkel said:


> Do you post a new list every time you listen through the whole cycle?


Nah I actually don't listen to them much, but when I look through the scores I often find things I like which satisfy me even more than listening through the whole thing. Once I've made up my own interpretation of the symphonies I am satisfied enough to hear them in my head played by my imaginary orchestra. Each time I get the scores out I often come here and update what my personal rankings of each symphony is. It's probably to no ones interest unless they love the 4th as much as I do! :lol:


----------



## hapiper

If anyone has heard Gardiner's boxed set of Beethoven Symphonies played on period instruments, I was wondering what you thought of the various symphonies or the box set as a whole? Do the period instruments add anything to the works or does it tend to fall into the gimmick category.


----------



## jim prideaux

hapiper said:


> If anyone has heard Gardiner's boxed set of Beethoven Symphonies played on period instruments, I was wondering what you thought of the various symphonies or the box set as a whole? Do the period instruments add anything to the works or does it tend to fall into the gimmick category.


I can only speak from my own perspective but I can heartily recommend the whole cycle-I cannot see how the word 'gimmick' might in any way apply.....


----------



## hpowders

The Fourth is my choice for the greatest Beethoven Symphony.

The performance by Gunther Wand from his complete set is magnificent; the best I have ever heard.

A pleasure to hear the brass thunder through at the end of the third movement! Unforgettable!!


----------



## Vaneyes

hapiper said:


> If anyone has heard Gardiner's boxed set of Beethoven Symphonies played on period instruments, I was wondering what you thought of the various symphonies or the box set as a whole? Do the period instruments add anything to the works or does it tend to fall into the gimmick category.


I think it's just a try at what they may have sound like back in the day. As with almost any interp, no more, no less valid. Though for some, there's fierce opposition to one or the other. I think Nos. 1, 2, 4, 7, 8 are better candidates for HIP, though Hanover/Goodman does a decent Eroica. Bremen/P.Jarvi, an effective blend of the two schools.:tiphat:


----------



## Pugg

I stick with Haintink and the Royal concertgebouw orchestra.
Good sound not to bombastic.
Karajan first for DG comes very close


----------



## DavidA

hapiper said:


> If anyone has heard Gardiner's boxed set of Beethoven Symphonies played on period instruments, I was wondering what you thought of the various symphonies or the box set as a whole? Do the period instruments add anything to the works or does it tend to fall into the gimmick category.


Have a couple of the discs. The ninth is variable. the third is good but not as good as Gardiner conducted for the film Eroica


----------



## EDaddy

Oh this is so subjective... and could even change on any given day but... here it goes (in order):

3 (Szell)
6 (Ashkenazy)
9 (Szell or Fricsay)
7 (Carlos Kleiber) 
5 (Kleiber or Wand)
4/8 tie (Wand/Szell)
1/2 tie (Wand)


----------



## Ivanbeeth

Kurkikohtaus said:


> I respect the 2nd symphony for a number of things:
> [*]A very difficult and deeply expressive slow introduction


I was surprised to see the Second ranked so low in the first posts (Seeing the Ninth in the bottom was also a shock). I just love the first movement of the second symphony. There's a moment in that huge intruduction that sounds like the tempestuous Ninth's; then the rest of the movement speaks to me as would a young, charismatic king, funny and poweful; and it has for me, the most exciting coda only surpassed by the Third's.

And here is my list:
3
9
2
5
7
4
8
6
1


----------



## vis756

I think the fourth is superb, second only to the Eroica.


----------



## vis756

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Nah I actually don't listen to them much, but when I look through the scores I often find things I like which satisfy me even more than listening through the whole thing. Once I've made up my own interpretation of the symphonies I am satisfied enough to hear them in my head played by my imaginary orchestra. Each time I get the scores out I often come here and update what my personal rankings of each symphony is. It's probably to no ones interest unless they love the 4th as much as I do! :lol:


I think the fourth is superb, second only to the Eroica. The second movement is one of Beethoven's greatest adagios.


----------



## Beavis

4
2
3
9
7
8
1
5
6


----------



## Guest

DavidA said:


> Have a couple of the discs. The ninth is variable. the third is good but not as good as Gardiner conducted for the film Eroica


Indeed the DVD version is better!


----------



## DavidA

Karajan conducted three mighty Eroicas in his three DG sets. I don't find generally the 1983 set as good as the other two but the Eroica is the exception.


----------



## Classicaltalk

4, 5 & 6 are the best 

3, 7, 9

1, 2, 8


----------



## Classicaltalk

4th adagio is sublime due to its simplicity. The 4th is also Beethoven's Mozart symphony. Upbeat.


----------



## corndogshuffle

I'll give a list, admitting that I've never heard the last two and only heard his 1st Symphony years ago while waiting for a performance of his 9th, which happened to be the second half of the concert. 

Love these four and wouldn't want to live without them
3
9
5
7

The next two I like but don't love
8
6


1 (heard once when I was young and ignoring everything in anticipation of 9)
2 (never heard)
4 (never heard)

Time to go find recordings of 1, 2, and 4...


----------



## KenOC

Hofrath Kueffner told him (Krenn) that he once lived with Beethoven in Heiligenstadt, and that they were in the habit evenings of going down to Nussdorf to eat a fish supper in the Gasthaus 'Zur Rose.' One evening when B. was in a good humor, Kueffner began: 'Tell me frankly which is your favorite among your symphonies?' B. (in good humor) 'Eh! Eh! The Eroica.' K. 'I should have guessed the C minor.' B. 'No; the Eroica.'

(No date, but likely the early 1820s.)


----------



## Animal the Drummer

3,5 and 7 top the list for me, in no particular order, with 6 close behind. Vaughan Williams, who generally disliked Beethoven's music, nevertheless wrote an essay demonstrating the greatness of the 9th. As it happens I also find that one easier to admire than to love. _[Runs]_


----------



## Mal

corndogshuffle said:


> Time to go find recordings of 1, 2, and 4...


1 Karajan (1963 DG set)
2 Zinman ZTO Arte Nova
4 Harnoncourt COE Teldec


----------



## DavidCat74

1. 3rd
2. 9th
3. 5th
4. 6th
5. 8th
6. 7th
7. 4th
8. 2nd
9. 1st


----------



## Machiavel

I must say I'm surprised a good majority pick the 3rd for his best .It simply leaves me cold. 1 movement does not make a great symphony . I understand it's place in history for the change to extended forms for the lack of a better word but to me it is as grey as Shostakovich. 6 will always be my favourite. Follows 9-7-5-8-4-2-1-3. As for the records I'm quite fond of Bruggen live sacd and Karajan 63 or is it 62. If you think his 3 is the best does it means you think the quality of his other symphonies went downward from that point ??


----------



## scratchgolf

Machiavel said:


> I must say I'm surprised a good majority pick the 3rd for his best .It simply leaves me cold. 1 movement does not make a great symphony . I understand it's place in history for the change to extended forms for the lack of a better word but to me it is as grey as Shostakovich. 6 will always be my favourite. Follows 9-7-5-8-4-2-1-3. As for the records I'm quite fond of Bruggen live sacd and Karajan 63 or is it 62. *If you think his 3 is the best does it means you think the quality of his other symphonies went downward from that point ??*


His 3rd has always left me cold. Bold is a point I haven't seen made but makes me think. Well said.

My current order...

1. 6th
2. 7th
3. 9th
4. 5th
5. 2nd
6. 3rd. The rest I have zero interest in at this point and will probably never listen to again on purpose.


----------



## SixFootScowl

I went nuts over the third a couple years ago, listening to it constantly for a couple weeks. Now i don't listen as much to it. My order at this time is,

5, 6, 9, 3, and have not figured out the rest of the order from there.


----------



## Sloe

9
5
6
7
4
3
2
8
1


----------



## gellio

6
7
9
5
8
4
3
2
1


----------



## gellio

scratchgolf said:


> His 3rd has always left me cold. Bold is a point I haven't seen made but makes me think. Well said.
> 
> My current order...
> 
> 1. 6th
> 2. 7th
> 3. 9th
> 4. 5th
> 5. 2nd
> 6. 3rd. The rest I have zero interest in at this point and will probably never listen to again on purpose.


I think the 8th is fantastic, and so underrated!


----------



## hpowders

Strictly from a compositional standpoint, the Eroica is Beethoven's greatest symphonic creation.

However, that does not make it my favorite Beethoven symphony.


----------



## Pugg

Glad that's settled then


----------



## Guest

9, 5, 8,3
7,1,2,6
4

In that order and that equality precisely.

And if I get my booking in on time, I'll get to hear the London Philharmonic and Vladimir Jurowski present the 9th at the Proms this summer!


----------



## Animal the Drummer

5
7
3
6
8
4
1
2
9


----------



## DiesIraeCX

The Ninth in D minor, Op. 125, will most likely always remain my favorite piece of orchestral music (by anybody).

I realized I cannot rank #5, #6, and #7. Therefore, it's a three-way tie.

Then it's #3 "Eroica". I understand those who haven't warmed up to the "Eroica" yet, as has been said with the "Hammerklavier" sonata, perhaps there's a lot to admire but not a lot to love. That said, I admire _and_ love the "Eroica", it's just slightly underneath the above three symphonies.

Then it's #8

#2 and #4

#1


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

The 4th and 8th are very underrated while the 6th is overrated. I think I may be shuffling the order over the years but my tiers would be:

3, 5, 7, 9
4, 8
6
2, 1

The last movement of the 3rd to me is one of the greatest single movements in all of symphonic literature.


----------



## Solistrum

1. 9
2. 6
3. 5, 7, 8
4. 3
5. 4, 2
6. 1

But I must add Pastoral, even though rarely, outranks the 9th in my list. Unlike Berg I definetly love it more than any other Sixth.


----------



## Guest

6, 4,
7, 5
3
1
2

...wait a minute, that's Sibelius.


----------



## Solistrum

MacLeod said:


> 6, 4,
> 7, 5
> 3
> 1
> 2
> 
> ...wait a minute, that's Sibelius.


So this is a Sibelius thread now?

1. 5, 7
2. 3
3. 6, 2
4. 4
5. 1


----------



## Guest

Solistrum said:


> So this is a Sibelius thread now?
> 
> 1. 5, 7
> 2. 3
> 3. 6, 2
> 4. 4
> 5. 1


Well we've had over 40 pages of LvB and surely we're done with him now - except that I see KenOC has started yet another thread about the man.

As Groucho apocryphally said, "Lady, I love my cigar, but I take it out of my mouth once in a while."


----------



## Solistrum

MacLeod said:


> Well we've had over 40 pages of LvB and surely we're done with him now - except that I see KenOC has started yet another thread about the man.
> 
> As Groucho apocryphally said, "Lady, I love my cigar, but I take it out of my mouth once in a while."


Well, dear old Beethoven deserves lots and lots of threads. Actually I think someone should make a "Beethoven's Best Incidental Music" thread or "Best Beethoven Variations" thread. :angel:


----------



## znapschatz

Returning to Beethoven ...

#3 - my favorite, fills me up and wrings me out every time
#5,7, and 9 - couldn't choose, equally powerful
#6,8 - just a bit lighter weight than the above
#1,2, and 4 - haven't yet heard or didn't make a strong impression

Decades ago, as a young teenager, I saw a film in which a criminal suspect was cornered in an apartment by the police. I don't remember the name of the movie or much of the plot, but the musical score made a big impression on me. I thought it was Academy Award material, at least. Turned out to be from the Second movement of the Beethoven 7th. It didn't get the Oscar nomination that year, though.


----------



## Vaneyes

I must've answered this question somewhere in this laborious thread, which I noticed is 11 years old. Chi_townPhilly posted in 2007, jurianbai in 2008, and TresPicos in 2009. They're still around, and are to be commended for their TC longevity.

Eroica, Ode to Joy, Pastorale.....


----------



## Art Rock

Having played all nine recently again, here is my current ranking'

6
5
7
3
4
8
2
1
9


----------



## DavidA

All the Beethoven symphonies are remarkable and all are great in their way. The Eroica was, of course, the ground breaking symphony as it expanded the form beyond anything known before. But they are all quite remarkable - especially the Eroica and beyond - even the eighth which is highly original as it parodies a form Beethoven had by then dispensed with.


----------



## Pugg

DavidA said:


> All the Beethoven symphonies are remarkable and all are great in their way. The Eroica was, of course, the ground breaking symphony as it expanded the form beyond anything known before. But they are all quite remarkable - especially the Eroica and beyond - even the eighth which is highly original as it parodies a form Beethoven had by then dispensed with.


Do not forget number six , absolutely marvellous :tiphat:


----------



## bz3

Hmm for my own amusement I will forbid myself from using ties in the ranking. Taken together they are my favorite symphonic body of work by anyone, and I love each and every one enough to where I neither wear them out nor could say they are decidedly inferior to another.

9
3
8
6
7
4
5
1
2


----------



## SixFootScowl

Pugg said:


> Do not forget number six , absolutely marvellous :tiphat:


I don't think we can even compare #6 with the rest it is so different. Definitely at the top of my list along with #3, #5, and #9. But I need to get to know the other ones better.


----------



## gellio

I have 5 or 6 cycles and I say Solti's 2nd cycle with the CSO. WOW.


----------



## Pugg

gellio said:


> I have 5 or 6 cycles and I say Solti's 2nd cycle with the CSO. WOW.


Brave to come out, I admit, I like that set also :tiphat:


----------



## DavidA

Pugg said:


> Brave to come out, I admit, I like that set also :tiphat:


Solti wasn't a great Beethoven conductor but he was never dull.


----------



## gellio

Florestan said:


> I don't think we can even compare #6 with the rest it is so different. Definitely at the top of my list along with #3, #5, and #9. But I need to get to know the other ones better.


You need to know the 7th now!


----------



## gellio

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> The 4th and 8th are very underrated while the 6th is overrated. I think I may be shuffling the order over the years but my tiers would be:
> 
> 3, 5, 7, 9
> 4, 8
> 6
> 2, 1
> 
> The last movement of the 3rd to me is one of the greatest single movements in all of symphonic literature.


I agree that the 4th and the 8th are underrated. I love the 4th. I also think the 6th is hugely underrated. It is simply miraculous.


----------



## gellio

DavidA said:


> Solti wasn't a great Beethoven conductor but he was never dull.


Lol. I didn't even look at the subject matter of the threats when I posted this.


----------



## SixFootScowl

gellio said:


> You need to know the 7th now!


I have seen it somewhere that the odd numbered symphonies were the best, with possible exception of #1?

I guess if one were going to throw any out it would be 1 and 2 as they were more in the traditional form before the 3rd blew it wide open. Although 4 is supposed to be more subdued too.

Yeah, #6 is outstanding and is one of the greatest symphonies ever written.


----------



## Pugg

DavidA said:


> Solti wasn't a great Beethoven conductor but he was never dull.


Then again, nobody's perfect.


----------



## gellio

Florestan said:


> I have seen it somewhere that the odd numbered symphonies were the best, with possible exception of #1?
> 
> I guess if one were going to throw any out it would be 1 and 2 as they were more in the traditional form before the 3rd blew it wide open. Although 4 is supposed to be more subdued too.
> 
> Yeah, #6 is outstanding and is one of the greatest symphonies ever written.


I think it's a misconception that 3, 5, 7 and 9 are the best, rather they are merely the most popular. It's more of the matter of the 4th, 6th and 8th suffering from their positions in the cycle. The poor, little, incredible 4th is sandwiched between the heroic 3rd and the mighty 5th. The ravishing 6th, between the 5th and the ever popular 7th, and the wild 8th between the 7th and you know what!

When Beethoven himself was asked why the 8th was less popular than the 7th, he replied, "because the Eighth is so much better." I can't agree with him here.

My favorite's in order are 6, 9, 7, 5, 4, 3.


----------



## SixFootScowl

gellio said:


> I think it's a misconception that 3, 5, 7 and 9 are the best, rather they are merely the most popular. It's more of the matter of the 4th, 6th and 8th suffering from their positions in the cycle. The poor, little, incredible 4th is sandwiched between the heroic 3rd and the mighty 5th. The ravishing 6th, between the 5th and the ever popular 7th, and the wild 8th between the 7th and you know what!
> 
> When Beethoven himself was asked why the 8th was less popular than the 7th, he replied, "because the Eighth is so much better." I can't agree with him here.
> 
> My favorite's in order are 6, 9, 7, 5, 4, 3.


Well then, I will have to listen to 4 and 8. #6 I am much familiar with but 4 and 8 am not. That is a good place for me to focus for now.


----------



## gellio

Florestan said:


> Well then, I will have to listen to 4 and 8. #6 I am much familiar with but 4 and 8 am not. That is a good place for me to focus for now.


Let me know what you think of the 4th. I love it so.


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

Speaking of the 4th, my current favorite recording is Gunter Wand with the NGRSO (North German Radio Symphony Orchestra)


----------



## gellio

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Speaking of the 4th, my current favorite recording is Gunter Wand with the NGRSO (North German Radio Symphony Orchestra)
> 
> View attachment 84168


I have complete cycles of Solti, Karajan (63), Barenboim, Bohm, Bernstein and Gardiner. It's Gardiner all the way for me. I can't believe I actually like a HIP recording, but his symphonies are simply powerful and riveting.


----------



## Jordan Workman

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._9_(Beethoven)


----------



## Pugg

Jordan Workman said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._9_(Beethoven)


This is your favourite I presume?


----------



## SixFootScowl

gellio said:


> Let me know what you think of the 4th. I love it so.


I love it! My new list of favorite Beethoven symphones (not in order of preference):

3, *4*, 5, 6, and 9!


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

gellio said:


> I have complete cycles of Solti, Karajan (63), Barenboim, Bohm, Bernstein and Gardiner. It's Gardiner all the way for me. I can't believe I actually like a HIP recording, but his symphonies are simply powerful and riveting.


I haven't heard all the symphonies from these sets (have listened to Solti's 9th, most of Karajan but the later 70s set, Bohm and Gardiner) but still prefer Wand in the 4th. I do like Gardiner for something different and much prefer him over Harnoncourt's period performance with the COE. Zinman's set with the Tonhalle Orchestra Zurich is another of my favorite sets for period-like performance but on modern instruments.


----------



## WaterRat

1. 7th
2. Daylight
3. 9th
4. 6th
5. 5th
6. 3rd
7. 8th
8. 4th
9. 2nd
10. 1st


----------



## maudia

I am new to the forum: what about a topic: The best version of each Beethoven's Symphonies?


----------



## SixFootScowl

maudia said:


> I am new to the forum: what about a topic: The best version of each Beethoven's Symphonies?


This thread
http://www.talkclassical.com/20478-best-beethoven-symphony-recordings.html
asks for the "'best' current CD recordings of the 9 Beethoven Symphonies, either individually or preferably as a set?"


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

Favorite recordings of the cycle in order would be : Kletzki, Blomstedt, Szell, then Krips. I can find little to criticize in the Kletzki cycle. The other 3 have their thoroughly discussed faults, however I still like them immensely . The Immerseel cycle is my hip choice. 

But if Bernie Sanders gets elected and decides we have to share our excess of cycles with the cycle poor, and we can only keep one, I would take the Kletzki cycle.


----------



## Xenakiboy

Out of his (quite over-exaggeratedly rated) symphonies, I'd pick:

1 Symphony #7 - Great Symphony (though I'd take the Grosso Fugue over it any day!)
2 Symphony #5 (though after the first movement, there are a lot of boring parts)
3 Symphony #3 - only the first movement though 

Apart from that, I'm not a fan of the rest of his Symphonies. :tiphat:


----------



## DiesIraeCX

They're not over-exaggeratedly rated; they're rated quite accurately, actually. You just don't like them, is all. 

:tiphat:


----------



## Judith

My favourite is the seventh and I particularly love the second movement.


----------



## DavidA

Xenakiboy said:


> Out of his (quite over-exaggeratedly rated) symphonies, I'd pick:
> 
> 1 Symphony #7 - Great Symphony (though I'd take the Grosso Fugue over it any day!)
> 2 Symphony #5 (though after the first movement, there are a lot of boring parts)
> 3 Symphony #3 - only the first movement though
> 
> Apart from that, I'm not a fan of the rest of his Symphonies. :tiphat:


Please don't give us that stuff about them being over-rated when the vast majority of musicians rates them highly. Say you're not a fan that's fair enough.


----------



## starthrower

Oldhoosierdude said:


> But if Bernie Sanders gets elected and decides we have to share our excess of cycles with the cycle poor, and we can only keep one, I would take the Kletzki cycle.


Yeah! God forbid we might entertain the idea of educating and empowering the less fortunate so they too can enjoy the finer things in life. 

I'm going to hear the 7th performed next month. Taking my mother along, as I have no other family in town. And I'm between girlfriends. Not that any of them would want to go. :lol:


----------



## KenOC

By coincidence, another forum has a game going for best Beethoven “Frankencycle,” a collection of the favorite recordings of each symphony. Nominating and voting has been going on since July 4. The first four symphonies have been determined.

Symphony #1 - Christopher Hogwood, Academy of Ancient Music
Symphony #2 - John Eliot Gardiner, Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique
Symphony #3 - Leonard Bernstein, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra
Symphony #4 - Bruno Walter, Columbia Symphony Orchestra


----------



## Merl

I play Beethoven on a regular basis but currently I'm really enjoying Leinsdorf's take on the 9th with the Boston SO. The rest of the cycle is ok but that 9th just gets me. Terrific playing and the recording is first rate for its age. That should set the cat amongst the pigeons.


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

Thanks starthrower. 

I grew up less fortunate. I put myself through college and sought empowerment without Bernie Sanders help. And if someone really wanted one of my cycles and couldn't afford it, I would give them one gladly.

Sorry looks like no Bernie anyway. And he's sold out his followers to endorse a Clinton. Guess he's just another politician. I had hopes. 

Now the choice is who do you hate most.


----------



## Johnnie Burgess

DavidA said:


> All the Beethoven symphonies are remarkable and all are great in their way. The Eroica was, of course, the ground breaking symphony as it expanded the form beyond anything known before. But they are all quite remarkable - especially the Eroica and beyond - even the eighth which is highly original as it parodies a form Beethoven had by then dispensed with.


Yes they are.:tiphat:


----------



## Brahmsian Colors

1) Sym 4
2) Sym 1
3) Sym 3
4) Sym 9
5) Sym 7
6) Sym 5
7) Sym 6
8) Sym 8
9) Sym 2


----------



## gellio

1. Sixth
2. Fifth
3. Seventh
4. Ninth
5. Third
6. Fourth
7. Eighth
8. Second
9. First


----------



## Pat Fairlea

Has this one come around again? Next thing we know, flared trousers will be back in fashion. 

For old times sake, the correct answer is:
7th
5th
The rest


----------



## KenOC

This could become a very long thread since LvB's nine symphonies can be rank ordered in 362,880 ways, or even more if ties are allowed. :devil:


----------



## MusicSybarite

I'm on the odd-numbered side by preferences: 

My very favorites: 7, 5, 3

The rest: 6, 9, 4, 8, 2, 1


----------



## Brahmsian Colors

It's been about two and a half years since last list......My current favorites only, in no particular order: 1,3,5,6.


----------



## Merl

Haydn67 said:


> It's been about two and a half years since last list......My current favorites only, in no particular order: 1,3,5,6.


2 and a half years since I commented so this is my current preference......

7,8,1,9,4,3,5,6,2


----------



## flamencosketches

My favorites are 3 and 6, then 5, 7, and 8, then I guess 9 (never been a huge fan to be perfectly honest, though it is of course masterful), 1, 4, and then 2 ranks last, but it could be just due to lack of exposure. I actually really love the 1st symphony, and I suspect I'd grow to appreciate the 2nd as well. But yes; the Eroica is definitely my favorite. It has recently displaced the Pastorale which I've long known and loved. 

Interesting that some such as the poster above me have almost opposite preferences to mine. Goes to show the breadth of Beethoven's music even just within the symphonies.

And just for the record, I think there's more to appreciate, and more consistency, in the 32 piano sonatas as a complete set than in the 9 symphonies. I'm sure some would say the same about the quartets too and they may be right (I've only heard a handful of them).


----------



## Art Rock

First tier (my absolute favourite works): 6
Second tier (essential for my collection): 5
Third tier (important, but not essential): 3,4,7


----------



## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

Wow this is hard. I'm just gonna go with "favorites" ("best" or "greatest" would probably be very different):

7, 6, 9, 8, 5, 3, 2, 4, 1

But they're all essential and all some of my favorite works of CM, except perhaps #1.

Also, @Art Rock, I generally find myself having similar tastes to you, but when it comes to Beethoven (and Handel), we differ a good amount. Of course, there's nothing wrong with that!


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

3
7
5
9
4
8
6
2
1


----------



## Clouds Weep Snowflakes

What if I think they are all awesome? And I do-the 9th is actually one of the compositions that got me into Classical music.


----------



## CnC Bartok

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> What if I think they are all awesome? And I do-the 9th is actually one of the compositions that got me into Classical music.


Then you would be a gentleman of exquisite taste!


----------



## Johnnie Burgess

Merl said:


> I play Beethoven on a regular basis but currently I'm really enjoying Leinsdorf's take on the 9th with the Boston SO. The rest of the cycle is ok but that 9th just gets me. Terrific playing and the recording is first rate for its age. That should set the cat amongst the pigeons.


Would have to agree it is a very good recording. Does not get enough recognition.


----------



## Clouds Weep Snowflakes

CnC Bartok said:


> Then you would be a gentleman of exquisite taste!


I have Karajan's conductions for all of them on CDs :>...


----------



## Larkenfield

If I didn’t think of the symphonies as being fairly equal, I wouldn’t be as free to choose. Bruno Walter and the CSO did a sparkling 1 and 2 that I wouldn’t want to be without.


----------



## MarkW

Merl said:


> I play Beethoven on a regular basis but currently I'm really enjoying Leinsdorf's take on the 9th with the Boston SO. The rest of the cycle is ok but that 9th just gets me. Terrific playing and the recording is first rate for its age. That should set the cat amongst the pigeons.


Also, it contains an odd interpretive thing that only Leinsdorf would have come up with: At the end of the finale, in the "Maestoso" section just before the last two _Gotterfunken_'s, where virtually every conductor slows way down before the fast instrumental coda, he read the score closely and makes a case for taking it _a tempo_, which sounds disconcerting because no one else does it that way.


----------



## Merl

Even though I wrote that about the Leinsdorf 9th, many moons ago, I still feel the same about it. Its a terrific account. Its punchy, clippy, precise, judged perfectly and recorded superbly for its time. Its still one of the 9ths I return to more than any others.


----------



## CnC Bartok

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> I have Karajan's conductions for all of them on CDs :>...


OK, a partial withdrawal of the "exquisite taste" bit then! :devil:

I have all four of Karajan's cycles, sure they're good - I'm not going to get into the ritual of slagging him off - but for me there are better ones out there, Jochum (especially), Cluytens and Kletzki among them. Of Karajan's, my preferred set is his third - from the mid 1970s - perhaps the least ambitious and safest set he did, but overall remarkably satisfying.


----------



## NLAdriaan

5 Kleiber
7 Kleiber (RCO) and Bruggen II
6 Kleiber and Bruggen II
9 Bruggen II, ex aequo:
Ivan Fischer RCO https://www.concertgebouworkest.nl/nl/beethoven-symfonie-nr-9
4 Kleiber
3 Bruggen II


----------



## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> 7, 6, 9, 8, 5, 3, 2, 4, 1


Actually put 5 and 3 before 8.

Going with Art Rock's system:

Tier 1 (favorite works, greatest works): 7, 6, 9, 5, 3, 8, 2, 4
Tier 2 (essential for my collection): 1

Most underrated in my opinion are 2 and 4 (yet they're 7th and 8th on my list!!!). Personally I see 2 as a huge step up from 1, and quite an innovative work in its own right. I don't think any are overrated, except perhaps relative to each other... if I had to call one overrated it'd be 1.

I personally think the top 5 greatest symphonies are all by Beethoven (3, 5, 6, 7, 9, though not necessarily in that order). Well, hm, not sure about that... top 3 are all by Beethoven for sure.


----------



## flamencosketches

Karajan's 1963 is the only full cycle of the symphonies I've heard, but I really like it. There is better out there, I'm sure. I know he is not a highly regarded conductor on here or in classical music circles in general, seems he's viewed as "for the masses" type of artist. I definitely don't like him in everything, but his Beethoven is good. I have no desire to get another complete cycle at this point in my life. 

However, I like hearing different versions of individual symphonies. One historical conductor I'm curious about is Toscanini. I heard an Eroica that he recorded, but I have no idea the orchestra or when it was recorded. It was great, though. I also like Kleiber's 5th and 7th (are these the only ones he recorded?), Bruno Walter's 6th, and Fürtwangler's Eroica (only heard once, but it was very good).


----------



## KenOC

flamencosketches said:


> Karajan's 1963 is the only full cycle of the symphonies I've heard, but I really like it. There is better out there, I'm sure...


Don't sell Herbie short! Another site had a "best Beethoven symphony cycle" competition, and it was pretty much a toss-up between HvK's 1963 cycle and Gardiner's later HIP cycle. Gardiner took it by a nose, but a tie-breaker vote was required.

What I'm saying is that HvK's 1963 cycle is very well-regarded.


----------



## Merl

flamencosketches said:


> Karajan's 1963 is the only full cycle of the symphonies I've heard, but I really like it. There is better out there, I'm sure. I know he is not a highly regarded conductor on here or in classical music circles in general, seems he's viewed as "for the masses" type of artist. I definitely don't like him in everything, but his Beethoven is good. I have no desire to get another complete cycle at this point in my life.
> 
> However, I like hearing different versions of individual symphonies. One historical conductor I'm curious about is Toscanini. I heard an Eroica that he recorded, but I have no idea the orchestra or when it was recorded. It was great, though. I also like Kleiber's 5th and 7th (are these the only ones he recorded?), Bruno Walter's 6th, and Fürtwangler's Eroica (only heard once, but it was very good).


Yeah, as KenOC stated, Karajan's 63 cycle is my benchmark. Its still a great set even if I prefer a few other s these days but I have so many cycles there's bound to be something I might prefer elsewhere. If you have a spare couple of hours and you want to read about other LvB sets then look at Granate's Beethoven reviews and my own. Between us we've covered well over half of the 170+ cycles (my estimate). For me it's well worth having a few different cycles (at least one HIP and one in modern sound) to play along with Herbie. Here's a sample.

Merl's Beethoven Symphony Cycle Reviews Pt8

Granate's Beethoven Symphony Challenge - Table 6 (Germany 2)


----------



## NLAdriaan

flamencosketches said:


> I also like Kleiber's 5th and 7th (*are these the only ones he recorded?*)


Beethoven 6 by Carlos Kleiber:












Beethoven 4 by Carlos Kleiber:











Video







Audio


----------



## DavidA

NLAdriaan said:


> Beethoven 6 by Carlos Kleiber:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 115122
> 
> Beethoven 4 by Carlos Kleiber:
> View attachment 115121
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Video
> View attachment 115120
> 
> Audio


Some people rave about the Kleiber 6 but I thought it was too taut and rushed in places. His walk through the countryside appears to have been done on a motorbike!


----------



## Enthusiast

^^^ I agree x10! It is a Pastoral I actively dislike. I think also the whole Orfeo Kleiber series are something of a disappointment for those expecting the equals of his DG 5 and 7.

I thought I could never rank the symphonies themselves as they are all so different and perfect in their individual ways. But starting with my (current) least favourite and working backwards I have managed to play the game:

3, 6, 8, 5, 2, 1, 7, 9, 4.


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## NLAdriaan

Enthusiast said:


> It is a Pastoral I *actively dislike*. I think also the whole Orfeo Kleiber series are something of a disappointment for those expecting the equals of his DG 5 and 7.


Not that I could be bothered at all with 'expert views', but at least 'the experts' seem to actively like this disc:
https://www.orfeo-international.de/pages/cd_c600031b_e.html

This was the single one time that Kleiber ever conducted the Pastoral, which makes this 1983 recording literally historic. There is only one take of this unique concert, without any editing. The sound is indeed dreadful, as the WDR tapes were lost and the only surviving source was a musicassette, taped for Kleibers son.

But no worries, there are more (!) than enough better sounding alternatives for anyones taste! In the meantime, I cherish this one:kiss:


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## Enthusiast

NLAdriaan said:


> Not that I could be bothered at all with 'expert views', but at least 'the experts' seem to actively like this disc:
> https://www.orfeo-international.de/pages/cd_c600031b_e.html


I _know_. I never understood it. Usually I am up for a different approach to a great masterpiece but Kleiber's rather driven approach to the Pastoral never worked for me. But I know I'm probably in the minority.


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## Merl

Enthusiast said:


> I _know_. I never understood it. Usually I am up for a different approach to a great masterpiece but Kleiber's rather driven approach to the Pastoral never worked for me. But I know I'm probably in the minority.


No, you're not in the minority. I usually like Kleiber recordings but not that one (and I own it). It's not the driven performance that concerns me. I love some drive in the Pastoral (Pletnev, Scherchen spring to mind) It just doesn't connect with me. Tbf, part of the problem, already alluded to, is the sound which is indeed awful but I don't think it's a well-judged performance. I know some people will laud it just cos its Kleiber but it really isn't a great account for me.


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## Larkenfield

Don't miss out on Beethoven's 8th! It's full of his tremendous wit! He's showing off his sense of humor and playfulness... the perfect set-up for his awesome 9th and his message of the Brotherhood of Man. What a guy! That he was almost entirely deaf at this point in his life makes his laughter even more miraculous. If humor isn't a victory over the vagaries of fate, I don't know what is.


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## flamencosketches

Merl, thank you for the links. I am the kind of guy who takes pleasure in reading material like this (whatever that says about me  ) and will certainly appreciate some more perspective on the matter. I will definitely check both of these lists out later on today.

Quick question (and probably easier asked than answered) : if you could have one HIP cycle, whose would it be? Gardiner? Immerseel? Those are the only two I have heard (parts of) and I liked both, but know there are many others out there now.

And for the record, I didn't mean to disparage Karajan, and maybe I spoke too harshly. It really is a good cycle and I'm totally satisfied with it! I only meant to illustrate that in considering him overall as a conductor (beyond just this set) I see far more people trashing him than praising him these days, on the internet. But I do still see at least his first few Beethoven cycles given rightful praise pretty often.


----------



## Merl

flamencosketches said:


> Merl, thank you for the links. I am the kind of guy who takes pleasure in reading material like this (whatever that says about me  ) and will certainly appreciate some more perspective on the matter. I will definitely check both of these lists out later on today.
> 
> Quick question (and probably easier asked than answered) : if you could have one HIP cycle, whose would it be? Gardiner? Immerseel? Those are the only two I have heard (parts of) and I liked both, but know there are many others out there now.
> 
> And for the record, I didn't mean to disparage Karajan, and maybe I spoke too harshly. It really is a good cycle and I'm totally satisfied with it! I only meant to illustrate that in considering him overall as a conductor (beyond just this set) I see far more people trashing him than praising him these days, on the internet. But I do still see at least his first few Beethoven cycles given rightful praise pretty often.


I have no problem with anyone trashing any performance as long as they can say why they don't like it and have actually listened to the performance. What I loathe is fanboyism. As for HIP my advice is to have a listen to as many as you can (Spotify, YouTube, etc are your friends). Lots of good HIP sets out there. Some will champion Bruggen first set, others will tell you Gardiner, Krivine, Immerseel. Personally I rate all those sets especially Immerseel, which I like a lot but I also love Lan Shui's cycle but it's dear to buy (it's in 3 not-so-cheap volumes). So listen to as much as you can but Immerseel does get a lot of love on here and elsewhere as it is really good but you might not rate it. Who knows? Good luck on your Beethoven journey. There are so many sets out there I'm sure you'll find others you'll like.


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## DavidA

Enthusiast said:


> I _know_. I never understood it. Usually I am up for a different approach to a great masterpiece but Kleiber's rather driven approach to the Pastoral never worked for me. But I know I'm probably in the minority.


You're not the only one. Needs more relaxation.


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## Kiki

In Carlos Kleiber's Bavarian Pastoral, there are places in the first movement that sounds so quick to the point of rushing. The rest of the symphony is still quick but OK. (BTW Scherchen/Lugano is just as quick, except in the Sherpherd's Song, but it doesn't sound rushed at all, in fact it sounds rather exquisite to me). 

I suppose CK could see the programme of the first movement, probably with some interpretation, as a psychological depiction of eagerness and cheerfulness, rather than a pictorial video footage of a countryside walk; but then everybody's perception of a country walk (even of Mr. Beethoven's) is different. 

TBH Carlos Kleiber's rather fussy conducting in some places bothers me more than his quick, sometimes rushing tempo.


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## Merl

Kiki said:


> In Carlos Kleiber's Bavarian Pastoral, there are places in the first movement that sounds so quick to the point of rushing. The rest of the symphony is still quick but OK. (BTW Scherchen/Lugano is just as quick, except in the Sherpherd's Song, but it doesn't sound rushed at all, in fact it sounds rather exquisite to me).


This is a point I've been trying to make on here for years. Speedy does not mean rushed. Scherchen and many others take a much brisker view of the Pastoral than someone like Bohm yet they aren't 'wrong' and neither are many of them 'rushed'. I agree that Kleiber's pastoral does indeed sound rushed in places but it's mostly due to some ragged ensemble and he never quite feels as if he's fully in control until (ironically) the Storm. At the end of the first movement this is very noticeable. Its a shame Kleiber never left a full cycle with the same orchestra. I'd have loved to hear the whole 9 under his direction.


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## BeethovenTheGreat

Symphony no 7
Symphony no 3 & Symphony no 4 ( I Cannot emphasize how underrated this is. LOVED the 1st and 4th movements )
Symphony no 9
Symphony no 5
Symphony no 8
Symphony no 1
Symphony no 2
Symphony no 6



Actually rating Beethoven symphonies is very difficult cause i enjoyed every single one of them, it's like asking me which child i love the most.


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## flamencosketches

Why didn't anyone tell me his even numbered symphonies were good...? Here I was getting sick of the 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th, about ready to proclaim the string quartets far superior to the symphonies, without hardly giving half of his symphonies a fair shot. 

Anyway, the second symphony is great. Much better than the first, which I also like a lot. Maybe my newfound appreciation of Haydn has changed the impact that these earlier symphonies has on me, but in any case this is still mature Beethoven writing even at this early stage. The 8th is good too, if short. Still have yet to give the 4th a fair shot. And of course the 6th is incredible and probably my favorite of all if not the Eroica maybe.


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## flamencosketches

Is anyone a fan of the 1939 Toscanini/NBC cycle?

https://www.amazon.com/Ludwig-van-B...ini+beethoven&qid=1554985730&s=gateway&sr=8-2

Dirt cheap here. Tempted to go for it, but several others are in contention for my next cycle. Chailly, Gardiner, Immerseel, Brüggen... love what I've heard of all of em, but I also have a thing for historical recordings...


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## Common Listener

This has been fun for giving me an excuse to listen to Beethoven's symphonies again. I listened to Wand and Immerseel on the Tube to provide a range to refresh my impressions and came up with something like this (ranked solely by my personal enjoyment and not by any claims of absolute quality):

5
7
4
1
6
8
3
2
9

The specific order is really unstable and even the general grouping isn't set in stone but tends to be a little more secure. 5, 7, and 4 usually work for me and 7 seemed even better than usual, passing the always fantastic 4. 5 always seems so cliched and I think I won't like it as much but then I still do. 1 is usually the baseline. 3 and 9 usually don't work for me (I didn't even play 9 this time). I was kind of surprised 6, 8, and 2 were so low (and 8 was even lower before I shifted it up two spots based on the second listen). But something has to be low and I even enjoyed 2 this time, though not as much as usual. So, as I said, this is fun, but it's simpler to just say they're basically all worth having and listening to.


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## Merl

I have a cycle review to do for someone. As so I usually listen in this order:

7,8,9,3,4,15,6 and finally 2.


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## flamencosketches

Does no one like 2? It's one of the best IMO.


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## Kiki

Yes, 2 is great, especially when the conductor does not drag on!


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## Granate

I usually love to listen to Symphonies No.5 and No.7, but all the symphonies develop so much quality that none deserves to end up last.

I'm right now listening rating all existing Beethoven Symphony recordings by Furtwängler (except war recordings), Knappertsbusch and Schuricht's Paris Cycle which I recently purchased remastered from original tapes (which makes a huge difference to all sources on Spotify and everywhere else).


----------



## Guest

flamencosketches said:


> Does no one like 2? It's one of the best IMO.


I like 2. The comedy in the first movement is certainly worthy.


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## Merl

flamencosketches said:


> Does no one like 2? It's one of the best IMO.


I like 2. I just prefer the others more.


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## Xisten267

From most to least favorite at this moment:

1. Symphony #9 "Choral", Op. 125;
2. Symphony #5, Op. 67;
3. Symphony #6 "Pastoral", Op. 68;
4. Symphony #3 "Eroica", Op. 55;
5. Symphony #7, Op. 92;
6. Symphony #8, Op. 93;
7. Symphony #4, Op. 60;
8. Symphony #2, Op. 36;
9. Symphony #1, Op. 21.


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## flamencosketches

Let me try and rate them all in preference.

1. No.3 in E-flat major
2. No.7 in A major
3. No.6 in F major
4. No.5 in C minor
5. No.4 in B-flat major
6. No.2 in D major
7. No.8 in F major
8. No.1 in C major
9. No.9 in D minor (sorry  will someone please recommend me a great recording so I can learn to love this great symphony?)

There we have it. The ones I go to these days are not those I put at the top of the list but 1, 2 and 4 (occasionally 3 but alas I have kind of burnt myself out on it). I may need a new cycle to put some freshness back into the mix. Currently I'm heavily considering Gardiner or Immerseel, which one among these two has a better 9th?


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## Xisten267

flamencosketches said:


> Let me try and rate them all in preference.
> 
> 1. No.3 in E-flat major
> 2. No.7 in A major
> 3. No.6 in F major
> 4. No.5 in C minor
> 5. No.4 in B-flat major
> 6. No.2 in D major
> 7. No.8 in F major
> 8. No.1 in C major
> 9. No.9 in D minor (sorry  will someone please recommend me a great recording so I can learn to love this great symphony?)
> 
> There we have it. The ones I go to these days are not those I put at the top of the list but 1, 2 and 4 (occasionally 3 but alas I have kind of burnt myself out on it). I may need a new cycle to put some freshness back into the mix. Currently I'm heavily considering Gardiner or Immerseel, which one among these two has a better 9th?


The most recommended performances of Beethoven's Ninth here at TC can be found in *Trout's blog*. They include performances by Furtwangler, Karajan, Fricsay and others.

Personally, I prefer Toscanini's version of 1952 with the NBC symphony orchestra. It's approach is unique, and despite some orchestration and dynamic changes from the original score (what many conductors do), overall I think that, from those that I've heard, this is the performance that comes closer to Beethoven's intents for the work. It has a lot of passion and fire, and follows rigorously Beethoven's tempo markings, something unusual for Op. 125 before the HIP movement (The première of the Ninth lasted 63 minutes, and this is the tempo that Beethoven's nephew recommended, probably with the composer's consent, for a certain maestro that asked for directions on conducting the piece. Toscanini's performance lasts about 65 minutes - about 3% longer than the première's -, while Furtwangler's of 1954 for example stretches the symphony to 75 minutes - almost 20% longer than the première's.)

I didn't listen to Gardiner's nor Immersel's takes on the _Choral_, but I've seen people talking very positively of the former somewhere on the net, so that would be my choice between the two.


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## flamencosketches

Gardiner is who I'm leaning toward too, there. 

I like what I've heard of Toscanini's Beethoven, a lot. He did not over-romanticize the music as some tend to. I haven't heard his 9th so I will look into it. Trout's 4th on the list, Karajan/Berlin from 1962, is the one I'm most familiar with. It's good, but never really hit home for me. I'll keep looking for the right one. I understand Furtwängler's wartime 9th with Berlin is considered really good. Maybe I'll check that one out. Furtwängler is hit or miss for me. But I will definitely try and check out Fricsay and Toscanini. It's not every day I feel like listening to the 9th symphony but next time I do I'll pick one of those two.


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## science

I wonder whether I did this one before.... 

5 
6
7 
9 
3 
8 
4 
2 
1


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## Larkenfield

flamencosketches said:


> 9. No.9 in D minor (sorry  will someone please recommend me a great recording so I can learn to love this great symphony?)


Yes. I will.  Herbert Blomstedt and the Staatskapelle-Dresden Orchestra. It's full, rich, and recorded in excellent sound. Ken Burns featured this outstanding recording in his film on Frank Lloyd Wright (who loved the 'architecture' of the composer's music) and he made the right choice. I also highly recommend Blomstedt's entire Beethoven cycle. I did not find that Blomstedt's 9th was oppressive in any way, but celebratory as I believe Beethoven intended it to be with his message of the Brotherhood of Man.

https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Herbert-Blomstedt-Staatskapelle-Dresden/dp/B008VSNFQ4


----------



## Merl

Larkenfield said:


> Yes. I will.  Herbert Blomstedt and the Staatskapelle-Dresden Orchestra. It's full, rich, and recorded in excellent sound. Ken Burns featured this outstanding recording in his film on Frank Lloyd Wright (who loved the 'architecture' of the composer's music) and he made the right choice. I also highly recommend Blomstedt's entire Beethoven cycle. I did not find that Blomstedt's 9th was oppressive in any way, but celebratory as I believe Beethoven intended it to be with his message of the Brotherhood of Man.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Herbert-Blomstedt-Staatskapelle-Dresden/dp/B008VSNFQ4


Agreed. Great cycle and possibly one of the greatest played at moderate speeds. Those Dresdeners were some orchestra back then. It's a shame Blomstedt's 2nd cycle wasn't recorded with Dresden. As good as the 2nd (quicker) set is it still isn't fit to shine the boots of that Dresden cycle. Blomstedt was a great conductor, though.


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## Enthusiast

flamencosketches said:


> Is anyone a fan of the 1939 Toscanini/NBC cycle?
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Ludwig-van-B...ini+beethoven&qid=1554985730&s=gateway&sr=8-2
> 
> Dirt cheap here. Tempted to go for it, but several others are in contention for my next cycle. Chailly, Gardiner, Immerseel, Brüggen... love what I've heard of all of em, but I also have a thing for historical recordings...


It's an excellent cycle but the sound is quite poor - still, you do get used to it. Looking at the sets you mention, I recommend you to add some Beethoven from a conductor who is not scared of slowing down at times - Harnoncourt, Karajan, Solti, Furtwangler, Bernstein, Bohm etc. The HIP sets have some insights to share but they were (*IMO*) partly a reaction to previous practice as much as they were reactions to the music!


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## flamencosketches

^I have Karajan's 1960s cycle already, so I'm looking for something to kind of contrast with that, I guess. I would be curious to hear some of those you mentioned, especially Solti who is one of my favorite conductors, but I haven't heard any of his Beethoven. 

I'll look into that Blomstedt, @Larkenfield.


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## Heck148

flamencosketches said:


> Does no one like 2? It's one of the best IMO.


I love #2....2nd mvt is special....


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## infracave

Okay, so here's my two cents. First 4 spots are definitive to me.

N°1 - 9 - because it's the Ninth. As much a symbol as it is a piece of music.
N°2 - 3 - cannot overstate the importance of the eroica. total game changer
N°3 - 5 - archetype of pure music through a motivic tour de force
N°4 - 6 - one of the most important piece of programmatic music
N°5 - 7 - "the apotheosis of dance" as one guy with questionable taste in facial hair once called it
N°6 - 4 - often underappreciated. has really grown on me.
N°7 - 1 - amazing classical symphony, yet full of beethovenian idiosyncrasies
N°8 - 2 - honestly, i need to give it another listen. it's been a while
N°9 - 8 - ditto

I love that you guys are championning the 2nd. I'll give it another go.


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## jim prideaux

Oddly enough I find myself listening to the 2nd with far greater frequency than the 5th, 6th or 9th......

That is also the case with the 4th, 8th and 1st as well which I also listen to quite often these days........I want to listen to the music of Beethoven but without all of the associations etc and like to almost imagine I am uncovering something new to me-I also enjoy the 1st and 2nd Piano Concertos for the same reasons.


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## flamencosketches

jim prideaux said:


> Oddly enough I find myself listening to the 2nd with far greater frequency than the 5th, 6th or 9th......
> 
> That is also the case with the 4th, 8th and 1st as well which I also listen to quite often these days........I want to listen to the music of Beethoven but without all of the associations etc and like to almost imagine I am uncovering something new to me-I also enjoy the 1st and 2nd Piano Concertos for the same reasons.


Agreed. Though I'm not all too familiar with the first two piano concertos yet.

Symphonies 2, 4, and 8 are awesome. 1 slightly less so, but still great, if a bit lacking in individual voice. Though you can still hear the birth of the Beethoven sound.


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## caters

Here is my ranking and reasons why(I'm listening to Symphony no. 1 as I post this):
*
1. Symphony no. 5 in C minor*

Obviously the main reason has to do with how Beethoven bases the entire symphony off of that 4 note motif. That is just incredible that he is able to take such a short motif as a basis for an entire symphony. That and the symphony kind of has its own Picardy third if you know what I mean, where it goes seamlessly from the Scherzo in C minor to the Finale in C major. Then you get the inverse of that as the Scherzo theme comes back in C minor. And then there is a second Picardy third as Beethoven goes back to the Finale material, this time staying in C major. Also, he uses the submediant as the key for the second movement which seems unusual, especially when compared with his earlier symphonies and the symphonies of Mozart and Haydn, which typically have the second movement in either the dominant or the subdominant with a slight bias towards the subdominant. But it doesn't sound dissatisfied at all being in the submediant rather than the dominant or subdominant. And Beethoven already hints at Finale material here when you get to the triumphant theme in C major before it goes back to Ab major.

*2. Symphony no. 9 in D minor*

A lot of things are incredible about this symphony. There is the contrapuntal complexity(a double fugue appears in the Finale), there is the sheer drama of it all, equal to that of the fifth symphony I would say, maybe even surpassing the fifth symphony in terms of drama, and there is the sudden but smooth harmonic changes. Just in the first movement alone, you have sections in D minor, Bb major, and C minor. In later movements, you have D major on top of these 3 keys already present in the first movement. And the fact that the Finale starts with just the double basses and it eventually becomes full orchestra + full choir as the variations pass is incredible. Like the fifth symphony, this has its own Picardy third(Finale is in D major unlike the first movement which is in D minor). This I would say is like Bach's contrapuntal complexity and Beethoven's sheer emotion and expression in just the right ratio for a symphony with a lot of fugal passages, not just the double fugue of the Finale that I already mentioned.

*3. Symphony no. 3 in Eb major*

This one again is an equal to the fifth symphony in terms of drama. But it is in a major key, so while it does feel powerful, it doesn't feel angsty like the fifth symphony. Going from a fast, powerful Eb major first movement to a sad, slow, and funereal C minor second movement is such a dramatic change. And I find the funereal feel of the C minor 2nd movement is unusual for Beethoven's C minor movements. Usually, his C minor is more climactic if it is a harmony but not the key or angsty if it is the key, often starting off at forte or louder. So to hear a quiet, funereal C minor from Beethoven is very unusual. This is another one that has a lot of fugal passages. And like the ninth symphony, its Finale is a Theme and Variations.

*4. Symphony no. 6 in F major*

Hearing a Beethoven symphony with very little minor harmony is unusual. In some ways, his Pastoral symphony feels more like Mozart than your typical Beethoven piece(the major key bias being just one of those ways). It also has a more operatic feel to it, at least to me it does. And the fourth movement being a structural and harmonic interruption of the typical 4 movement symphony form is unusual. I guess you could say that Beethoven was the first well known composer to experiment with the symphony structure.

*5. Symphony no. 2 in D major*

Even though this symphony is is D major, a lot of it is in D minor. This is another symphony that I would say is equal to the fifth symphony in terms of the drama. In some ways, this symphony anticipates his ninth symphony.

*6. Symphony no. 4 in Bb major*

This is the one that everybody says is operatic in its nature. I'm not so sure about that(But then again, I'm only really familiar with Mozart operas). I do know however that he seems to get just as much angst in his Bb major symphony as he does in his fifth symphony, despite the symphony not being in a minor key at all. I have seen this "major feels like minor" taken to the extreme with his piano sonatas. For example, his C major piano sonatas sound just as dramatic and just as angsty as his C minor piano sonatas. And this is even more unusual for C major than it is for a key like Bb major. Typically, C major is your neutral key so to speak. Not really the case with Beethoven. This also seems to have a 5 movement structure like the Pastoral Symphony on first listen, but it is really a Double Scherzo and Trio(so the Scherzo appears 3 times and the Trio appears twice). So despite sounding like 5 movements, it isn't really 5 movements at all, just a typical symphony movement structure with an expanded scherzo movement.

*7. Symphony no. 1 in C major*

This is one piece for which I would consider Beethoven to be using C major as a neutral key. But then again, this is more influenced by Mozart and Haydn than his piano sonatas. His piano sonatas, even the early ones, already are experimental. This symphony however is more like a Mozart or Haydn piece in that it is very conservative. I can still tell that it is Beethoven(sudden C minor harmonies popping up and other things typical for Beethoven) but it is unusually conservative for Beethoven.

*8. Symphony no. 7 in A major*

This is another symphony of his that doesn't have all that much minor harmony. I haven't listened to it much but I find it interesting that he uses a quasi melodic rhythmic ostinato in this symphony. Of course, you could say much of the fifth symphony is a rhythmic ostinato and you would be right in that assessment. But the ostinato in his 7th symphony is not one that continues almost throughout the entire symphony unlike his fifth symphony.

Symphony no. 8 in F major I have never listened to(seems to be the hardest Beethoven symphony to find on Youtube) so I have no idea how I would rank it against Beethoven's other symphonies. But yeah, there's my ranking and reasons for the ranking.


----------



## Brahmsian Colors

Current order of preference...5,6,9,3,2,1,7,8,4


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT

caters said:


> Symphony no. 8 in F major I have never listened to(seems to be the hardest Beethoven symphony to find on Youtube) so I have no idea how I would rank it against Beethoven's other symphonies.


The 8th is brilliant. Here's a fine live performance by John Eliot Gardiner and his Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique:






It's not a video, but it's definitely well worth a listen.


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## sourmilkmoon

These things change for me. Today, it would be the 3rd


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## PHTB15

Having recently listened to the Beethoven symphonies for the first time, I thought that I would contribute my humble opinions. 

6th
7th
9th
5th
4th
2nd
8th
1st
3rd

Why does everyone seem to like the third so much? The tunes are great, but it just seems to go on forever, especially the funeral march. Also, the early even symphonies are not given enough credit - they are very good. If I was more cultured, I would of course place the 9th first, but as I am a musical philistine, the sixth completely seduces me.


----------



## Waehnen

Oh! Do I have to list them? I´ll do what I can. 

*Symphony no. 6, "Pastoral"*
I am a lover of nature and countryside. I travel regularly in Germany and other Central Europe, and the villages are often just gorgeous. There is so much more history that can be seen, in these old cultures like the German, French, Polish, Czeck and Dutch -- everywhere. The big Central, Eastern, Western and Southern cultures are thicker in history and the results of human effort than the Northern Europe. (Sorry, fellow Northeners!)

Listening to the Pastoral Symphony for me is a magnificent opportunity to travel to the German or Austrian countryside with Beethoven in the beginning of the 19th Century. I can see the meadows, fields and forests, the Fachwerkhäuser, the villagers, the spires of the churches, see the castles looming on hilltops, wide rivers winding through the scenery, hear the common blackbirds sing...

Just wonderful!

*Symphony no 9.*
This symphony is about the humanity, from an existencial and even cosmic perspective. The pure mastery of the music is overwhelming. The choral parts in the Finale are amongst the most personally important musical moments I know.

*Symphonies no. 3 and 7*
These 2 symphonies are just perfect in my ears and mind and heart.

*Symphony no. 5*
Not quite on the same level as the 3rd and 7th but still a seminal piece work.

*Symphonies no 1, 2, 4, and 8.*
I´ll be honest. These symphonies do not touch or stimulate me as much as the other 5. But that does not suggest I couldn´t enjoy them.


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## Brahmsian Colors

I really don't listen to much Beethoven any more other than the Triple Concerto, First and Fourth Piano Concertos and First, Second, Fifth and Ninth Symphonies.


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## Beethoven123

Because it is Beethoven's birthday:
At the moment (could change tomorrow) :
Symphony no. 5 (above all else for me)
Symphony no. 6 - very tuneful
Symphony no. 3 - the story of Beethoven reacting to Napoleon announcing himself as emperor just makes this work even better for me
Symphony no. 9 - 3rd movement drags a bit for me, but otherwise phenomenal
Symphony no. 7 - the funeral march is superb
Symphony no. 4 - the symphony that I find good but relatively understated compared to the overpowering 5th
Symphony no. 1 - Very good, early Beethoven work - nothing more to say on it really
Symphony no. 8 - Quite repetitive in my opinion - but I really enjoy the last movement
Symphony no. 2 - My "least favourite" Beethoven symphony (still at the very least an 8/10 for me) - I love the outer movements, but not the inner movements so much.


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## Kreisler jr

DavidA said:


> Some people rave about the Kleiber 6 but I thought it was too taut and rushed in places. His walk through the countryside appears to have been done on a motorbike!


In 1996 Carlos Kleiber received a Audi 8 Quattro for a concert in Ingolstadt (Audi town).

But that's a poor (or elderly) man's Porsche...

Karajan (then in his late 70s!) got not one but two of the limited exclusive Porsche 959. (He crashed his first one and they gave him another one!)

I still prefer Kleiber's conducting! (have not head his Pastoral, though)

937584261


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## Nipper

*5th & 6th* - The yin and yang pinnacle of symphonic composition. I love when they are paired on a CD. My first classical CD was Karajan's BPO 5th/6th in 1985; though his best 5th is probably the '63 BPO, I still prefer this HvK Pastoral. Dorati's 5th/6th combination with the LSO is superb. Though my one desert-island recording would be Bruno Walter's Pastoral with the Columbia SO. Great Fifths recorded by Reiner/CSO, Honk/Pittsburgh, Jochum/LSO, C. Kleiber/VPO, Wand/NDRSO. Other favorite Pastorals include Monteux/VPO, Clutens/BPO, Klemperer/Philharmonia, Munch/BSO, Blomstedt/Dresden.

*9th* - His greatest symphony. The length and choral sections make enjoyment much more performance-dependent. I just finished a rousing listen of Hans Schmidt-Isserstedt & the VPO's 9th, one of the all-time greats; possibly the best soloists (Sutherland, et. al.) on record. Fricsay/BPO, Reiner/CSO, Blomstedt/Dresden, Leinsdorf/BSO, Jochum/LSO are also on the short list for best-ever recordings of the Ninth.

*7th* - Just a tiny bit behind the big three symphonies. Favorite recordings include Reiner/CSO, Szell/Cleveland, Honeck/Pittsburgh, Dorati/LSO, Wand/NDRSO.

*3rd* - I think my feelings about the Eroica's placement vary the most, so I'll leave it in the middle. Some performances leave me feeling cold and flat, but a great performance can make it rival any symphony. Favorite recordings include Bernstein/NYPO, Karajan/BPO '84, Klemperer/Philharmonia '55 or '59, Honk/Pittsburgh, Szell/Cleveland.

*4th* - I really rate the four less famous symphonies almost as high as the others, with 4 & 8 just about equal. Favorite 4ths include Blomstedt/Dresden, Walter/Columbia SO, Jochum BPO, CO or LSO, Kletzki/CPO, Wand/NDRSO, Skrowaczewski/SRSO, Böhm/VPO.

*8th* - It's easy to understand why LvB said this was better than the 7th, just a perfect little symphony in F. Recordings I love include Kletzki/CPO, Blomstedt/Dresden, Szell/Celveland, Norrington/Stuttgart, Haitink/LSO.

*2nd* - Just a notch higher than the 1st based on the strong 1st movement. I just finished listening to Reiner with Pittsburgh from 1945 - what a great sounding mono recording on Sony Classical! Other favorites include Blomstedt/Dresden, Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin, Chailly/Leipzig, Kletzki/CPO, Walter/Columbia SO.

*1st* - And the first shall be last ... but just barely! I play this as often as all the others. Favorites include Haitink/LSO, Jochum/CO, Toscanini/NBC, Skrowaczewski/SRSO, Kletzki/CPO, Gardiner/ORR.


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## Heck148

Nipper said:


> *5th & 6th* - The yin and yang pinnacle of symphonic composition. I love when they are paired on a CD. My first classical CD was Karajan's BPO 5th/6th in 1985; though his best 5th is probably the '63 BPO, I still prefer this HvK Pastoral. Dorati's 5th/6th combination with the LSO is superb. Though my one desert-island recording would be Bruno Walter's Pastoral with the Columbia SO. Great Fifths recorded by Reiner/CSO, Honk/Pittsburgh, Jochum/LSO, C. Kleiber/VPO, Wand/NDRSO. Other favorite Pastorals include Monteux/VPO, Clutens/BPO, Klemperer/Philharmonia, Munch/BSO, Blomstedt/Dresden.
> 
> *9th* - His greatest symphony. The length and choral sections make enjoyment much more performance-dependent. I just finished a rousing listen of Hans Schmidt-Isserstedt & the VPO's 9th, one of the all-time greats; possibly the best soloists (Sutherland, et. al.) on record. Fricsay/BPO, Reiner/CSO, Blomstedt/Dresden, Leinsdorf/BSO, Jochum/LSO are also on the short list for best-ever recordings of the Ninth.
> 
> *7th* - Just a tiny bit behind the big three symphonies. Favorite recordings include Reiner/CSO, Szell/Cleveland, Honeck/Pittsburgh, Dorati/LSO, Wand/NDRSO.
> 
> *3rd* - I think my feelings about the Eroica's placement vary the most, so I'll leave it in the middle. Some performances leave me feeling cold and flat, but a great performance can make it rival any symphony. Favorite recordings include Bernstein/NYPO, Karajan/BPO '84, Klemperer/Philharmonia '55 or '59, Honk/Pittsburgh, Szell/Cleveland.
> 
> *4th* - I really rate the four less famous symphonies almost as high as the others, with 4 & 8 just about equal. Favorite 4ths include Blomstedt/Dresden, Walter/Columbia SO, Jochum BPO, CO or LSO, Kletzki/CPO, Wand/NDRSO, Skrowaczewski/SRSO, Böhm/VPO.
> 
> *8th* - It's easy to understand why LvB said this was better than the 7th, just a perfect little symphony in F. Recordings I love include Kletzki/CPO, Blomstedt/Dresden, Szell/Celveland, Norrington/Stuttgart, Haitink/LSO.
> 
> *2nd* - Just a notch higher than the 1st based on the strong 1st movement. I just finished listening to Reiner with Pittsburgh from 1945 - what a great sounding mono recording on Sony Classical! Other favorites include Blomstedt/Dresden, Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin, Chailly/Leipzig, Kletzki/CPO, Walter/Columbia SO.
> 
> *1st* - And the first shall be last ... but just barely! I play this as often as all the others. Favorites include Haitink/LSO, Jochum/CO, Toscanini/NBC, Skrowaczewski/SRSO, Kletzki/CPO, Gardiner/ORR.


You've got some excellent choices in there - the Reiner complete Beethoven symphony series is not available in one box set, it must be acquired from different sources - but it is of consistently first-rate quality...Reiner was a great Beethoven conductor.
He did a fine Sym #2 with Chicago, on video, from his TV concerts for WGN....#4 and 8 are from archival, live performances....I like his #7 from the 1954 WGN video as well. His commercially released #s 3, 5, 6, 9, 1 are top drawer all the way...


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## Bwv 1080

Obviously, the new Beethoven X 10th symphony, because AI, you know, can like do things better than humans


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## Nipper

Heck148 said:


> You've got some excellent choices in there - the Reiner complete Beethoven symphony series is not available in one box set, it must be acquired from different sources - but it is of consistently first-rate quality...Reiner was a great Beethoven conductor.
> He did a fine Sym #2 with Chicago, on video, from his TV concerts for WGN....#4 and 8 are from archival, live performances....I like his #7 from the 1954 WGN video as well. His commercially released #s 3, 5, 6, 9, 1 are top drawer all the way...


I'm a big Reiner fan, and of the CSO in general. I recently managed to score an archival CD compilation with the live #8 for a decent price. I've got all but the 4th on CD; that has become one of my holy grails for my relatively small CD collection.


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## Heck148

Nipper said:


> I'm a big Reiner fan, and of the CSO in general. I recently managed to score an archival CD compilation with the live #8 for a decent price. I've got all but the 4th on CD; that has become one of my holy grails for my relatively small CD collection.


I only have the 4th on a cassette tape that a friend burned me from the archival set. All the rest are on CD or DVD....that archival set has been OOP for some time.....It's still around tho, it may reappear at some point!!


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