# Medieval and Renaissance Music



## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Since the subject has recently risen here, I thought I might open a thread devoted to Medieval Music. I have heard some suggest that Medieval Music all sounds the same (as some have suggested with regard to the Baroque... or even the Classical Era)... but in reality I find the Medieval Era has one of the broadest arrays of music... if only because of the rather hermetic or isolated nature of the era. The composers in baroque or Romantic era England or Russia were all aware of what was going on in Italy and Germany... and until the late 19th century interest in folk music and the national nature of music, you don't find such an array of musical styles:


























*****


----------



## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)




----------



## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

(worthwhile fragment with instruments)

Refrain
Farewell, you fine wines of Lannoys,
Farewell ladies, farewell townsfolk,
Farewell she whom I loved so much,
Farewell all pleasing joy,
Farewell all bawdy companions.

etc.


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

All those old Vellard recordings are incredibly expensive now. Just wait a couple years till they come back out. Don't give these jerks who want $60 for a CD a single dime.

















This is the Marie Keyrouz St. Luke's posted in the OP (unless the person who made the video made a mistake). It's been released a few times with slightly different covers, but Keyrouz' "Chant byzantin" is the album you want, with any cover. This is not music in the western tradition so to my mind it's a tad out of place here, but whatever, it's ancient and it's beautiful. If I were in charge of heaven, this is what it would sound like.

Ambrosian Chant is a form of chant that predates Gregorian Chant (though I'd be surprised if the traditions hadn't changed between the time of, say, Ambrose, and the time the chants were first written).

















We can't be serious all the time, can we? Let go and let Garbarek.

As long as we're putting on Marie Keyrouz - the Oni Wytars Ensemble knows how to have a good time.


----------



## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Science... all great discs. I love the Hilliard's _Perotin_. Of course you need some Leonin to go with him. I highly recommend this classic disc with Red Byrd and the Capella Amsterdam (The sample of Leonine... Dulce Lignum... above is taken from that disc)










As for Soeur Marie Keyrouz... I have listened to that Chant byzantin disc obsessively while painting. It literally puts me a a meditative, trance state. Marie Keyrouz is a fascinating figure. She was born in Lebanon, raised in the Maronite Church and took her religious vows with the Melkite Greek Catholic Church. She is also a serious scholar, taking a joint doctorate in musicology and anthropology from the Sorbonne. She has collected a variety of "Oriental" Christian chants, mostly preserved in Greek, Syriac, and Arabic manuscripts and through oral tradition. Her debut album Chant byzantin took Europe by surprise upon its arrival in 1989, not only with the apparently ancient repertoire it represents, but also due to her own virtuosity, having a great ability to sing the intervals in rapid flourishes, notes that are difficult for most singers to reproduce. Marie Keyrouz is founder of L'Instituit International de Chant Sacré (International Institute of Holy Songs) in Paris, which promotes research into ancient sacred song. She has also written several books. She has written several books, and composed music rooted in the tradition of ancient Mediterranean/Middle-Eastern music which she has performed with _L'Ensemble de la Paix_, a small band of Arabic instrumentalists which she leads.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_Keyrouz

I also recommend:



















This is the same as the earlier Harmonia Mundi disc entitled, _Chants Sacrés Melchites_










I also agree that the Naxos disc with Oni Wytars Ensemble is also great fun.


----------



## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

I probably know as much as the next guy if not less about Medieval music. Labels offering a very good selection include Naxos, Ricercar, Arcana.

Guillaume Dufay (15th century) is a name that comes up every now and then with some nice pieces.


----------



## Jared (Jul 9, 2012)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Guillaume Dufay (15th century) is a name that comes up every now and then with some nice pieces.


Dufay is indeed very well worth checking out; I would possibly recommend this as a good starting point.










I only own one Machaut disk and although it's quite wonderful, it takes a little 'acclimatisation' owing to the Corsican musican language, which has a slightly 'Moorish' feel about it... I don't know whether you'd all agree?










another disk I've been enjoying recently is this one, which contains some beautiful harmonies and a lush melodic texture:


----------



## Head_case (Feb 5, 2010)

Lachrymae antiqua:










You can hear extracts here by Guillaume de Machaut and Christopher Tye. Some are modern compositions in the medieval style.

http://www.nonesuch.com/albums/early-music


----------



## Head_case (Feb 5, 2010)

Jared said:


> I only own one Machaut disk and although it's quite wonderful, it takes a little 'acclimatisation' owing to the Corsican musican language, which has a slightly 'Moorish' feel about it... I don't know whether you'd all agree?


His work made a strong impression on me instantly: it's the kind of period medieval music which really transports me to another world of time. 
Here's what the collaborators for the Kronos Quartet say about his stylistics:

"Traditions in music do not begin with recent European centuries," said Partch. "The potentiality of infinitely varied melodic and harmonic subtleties is one of the ancient lost values."

The 'ancient' elements, may indeed sound moorish at times? I love that conceptual exploration of recovering ancient lost values in music. To do so with early medieval music like this is fascinating. Kind of shows how provincial and speciated our musical tastes have become over time....


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Jared said:


> I only own one Machaut disk and although it's quite wonderful, it takes a little 'acclimatisation' owing to the Corsican musican language, which has a slightly 'Moorish' feel about it... I don't know whether you'd all agree?


Yeah, Peres is hardcore. He makes Machaut sound like heavy metal.


----------



## Jared (Jul 9, 2012)

Head_case said:


> His work made a strong impression on me instantly: it's the kind of period medieval music which really transports me to another world of time.
> Here's what the collaborators for the Kronos Quartet say about his stylistics:
> 
> "Traditions in music do not begin with recent European centuries," said Partch. "The potentiality of infinitely varied melodic and harmonic subtleties is one of the ancient lost values."
> ...


a very interesting post, h-c. Most of the so-called 'Early Music' in my collection is from the Late-Renaissance period and beyond, which had indeed become heavily conditioned by the decrees of the Catholic Church concerning what was and wasn't acceptable forms and styles. an exporation into even Earlier Music beckons in the future, I think.


----------



## Jared (Jul 9, 2012)

Manxfeeder said:


> Yeah, Peres is hardcore. He makes Machaut sound like heavy metal.


Coming from a progressive rock and metal background from my younger days, this indeed did make me smile...


----------



## Jared (Jul 9, 2012)

Head_case said:


> You can hear extracts here by Guillaume de Machaut and Christopher Tye. Some are modern compositions in the medieval style.
> 
> http://www.nonesuch.com/albums/early-music


Again, interesting. I have and love Tye's 'Western Wind Mass' perfomred by the Tallis Scholars. I don't know whether you have seen this disk, but having the Three Great Masses on this theme side by side is a real joy:


----------



## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Guillaume Dufay is more properly categorized as a Renaissance composer, but I'm no stickler for formal categorization. It's just good to hear others exploring Early Music. By the way... when it comes to Dufay I would highly recommend:










This disc was out of print for some while... and was commanding prices in the hundreds of dollars... until Harmonia Mundi re-released it. It can now be had for around $10 through Marketplace Dealers.

The discs of Dufay's music on Gloss Records is also "essential":




























Dufay... along with Gesualdo... seem to push vocal music into a realm that is almost Modernist in many ways.


----------



## Moira (Apr 1, 2012)

I really appreciate the links to music I can listen to online here in South Africa. 

I have a little 'thing' for Hildegard von Bingen. I visited her convent in her 900th year. Drank wine, bought CDs, but wasn't lucky enough to catch a concert while I was down in the Rhinelands.


----------



## Head_case (Feb 5, 2010)

Jared said:


> Again, interesting. I have and love Tye's 'Western Wind Mass' perfomred by the Tallis Scholars. I don't know whether you have seen this disk, but having the Three Great Masses on this theme side by side is a real joy:


Yes I suppose they are more renaissance than medieval lol. It's an impeccable disc - faultless imho.

Singing in Latin choir in college, my chorale music taste tended to be ultra rear vanguard dinosaur like (Palestrina; Ockegehem, van Bingen, Wye), although afterwards I did incorporate Zelienski, Artyomov, Paliashivili, Arkangelsky, Gorecki, Baird, Kilar into my listening.

When it comes to pre-medieval "early" music, it was probably the ubiquitous albums of La Mystère des Voix Bulgares which I turned to.

http://themysteryofthebulgarianvoices.com/SOUNDNAILS.html

although their second album was a complete dud and killed off any further interest for me.



> Most of the so-called 'Early Music' in my collection is from the Late-Renaissance period and beyond, which had indeed become heavily conditioned by the decrees of the Catholic Church concerning what was and wasn't acceptable forms and styles. an exporation into even Earlier Music beckons in the future, I think.


Yes - I think so. There were rather strict church imposed strictures, ones which created a form of music, specific to catholic culture and narrowed the development of such music along ecclesiastical traditions. One of my favourite philosophers, Simone Weil, commented in her Cahiers, that her experience in a church, hearing this definitive catholic style, had moved her into a mode of being, which is termed 'oraison'; inaccessible to language, and more existentially concrete. Is that not the function of music? ...to inspire.....

Referring to your post, I kind of found myself catapulted beyond choral music when I discovered the string quartet in university - then that defined most of my interest, so the early music of the pre-medieval European style didn't make its way onto my map.

A friend got me into early music, and when I say 'early music' - I mean really early lol. This piece, written around 201BC, is over 2300 years old *eek*

It is more classical than the European classical tradition; the more I listen to it, the more I realise how narrow and provincial my tastes are. Equally, it makes me realise that the modern contemporary styles of music, some of which we question legitimately as: "Is this music?" really have a lot to compete with: can they endure another 2,000 years, and still speak to successive generations? Or is the music we listen to, merely the 3 1/2 minute pop stuff which becomes obliterated when the composer's time is done?


----------



## Jared (Jul 9, 2012)

^^ great post... I'll come back to the erm.. Pipa(?) video when I don't have a Haydn SQ playing in the background!


----------



## Renaissance (Jul 10, 2012)

Machault is a very good start for those who seek to understand the medieval music. I own some records with his music, records like "The Mirror Of Narcissus", the controversial Messe de Notre-Dame by Ensemble Organum, and the one I like most, Intégrale des Motets by Musica Nova, a really beautiful recording.

I really appreciate De Vitry too, I am not sure if someone mentioned him. Let's not forget that he is the real inventor of the Ars Nova, a hugely influential figure of medieval music. Leonin and Perotin from Notre-Dame school have already been mentioned...

I almost forgot about Ars Subtilior ! There is a really good CD entitled "Codex Chantily" made by Ensemble Organum, a real thing if you want an idea of what Ars Subtilior means.

And here are some of my favorites :











These are from the Ars Subtilior CD I recommended.

Now, some Philippe de Vitry from Sequentia (a very skillful ensemble) :


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Gombert is a bit late for me to call "medieval" but early Renaissance is certainly fair.

In fact, if I had my 'druthers, we'd probably consider Machaut one of the first Renaissance composers - analogous to Petrarch and Boccaccio, who lived at the same time, and also Chaucer would be considered Renaissance. The problem is that even in Italy "Renaissance" painting doesn't really get going until the early fifteenth century... unless I can sneak in Giotto and call him "Renaissance." Which I would like to do, but does not appear to be common, and I defer to the experts.

Anyway, with just a few literary exceptions like Chaucer, England and France weren't very Renaissancy in any respect until the 100 Years' War ended. Machaut, living primarily in France, was clearly in a medieval culture.

BUT that is also the time of the ars nova and ars subtilior as well, which I'd like to label "Renaissance," and they flourished in France (and the Low Countries). So perhaps I can argue that the Renaissance came early to music. And if I can get away with that, I will have Machaut classified as Renaissance.

In painting or literature the "Northern Renaissance" in the Low Countries and the German cities began no earlier than 1400, but by the reigns of Philip the Good and Charles the Bold of Burgundy it's going on. If we focus specifically on music, those are the guys we're interested in: their patronage funded the Burgundian school of composers - Dufay, Binchois, Busnois. That's all in the fifteenth century, the time of Jan van Eyck and Roger van der Weyden - and in England, John Dunstable (or Dunstaple), who influenced them. Clearly Renaissance. The Eton Choirbook shows that England had a very vibrant Renaissance musical tradition at least a few decades old by 1500.

(I personally don't know about the line from Dunstable to the composers of the Eton Choirbook - guys like John Browne, Robert Fayrfax, William Cornysh. There seems to be at least 30 or 40 years missing there. But it's the time of the Wars of the Roses, and perhaps there isn't much to be known about English composition in that time.)

Sorry, that's a heck of a digression. All I wanted to do is express some reservation about how we're using the term "medieval" music. And to apologize for putting my Gombert CDs in this thread, because he's clearly early Renaissance. But the thread has been going that way, and for good reason: aside from chant (Gregorian, Ambrosian, Old Roman, Byzantine) and the Notre Dame school and maybe Machaut and the ars nova and ars subilitor if you want to call them Medieval, and of course the troubadour songs to the degree that we know about them, well, that's about all there is to talk about, and we naturally find ourselves sliding forward into the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries.

Gombert belongs to the sixteenth century, the time of Charles V, Henry VIII. By that time in elite cultural circles all over western Europe the Renaissance is in full swing - Francis I has hired Da Vinci and Cellini, Michelangelo and Erasmus are doing their things. All the same, the disks that I've posted above have a lot of plainchant because that dominated the liturgical context for which Gombert wrote his Magnificats.

Yes, and they are fine works, deserving mention in this thread. According to the liner notes, there is a plausible legend that Charles V liked them so much that he pardoned Gombert for the crime of molesting a boy in his choir....

Wikipedia has a good article on him, with enough analysis of his style to aid our appreciation of the music: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Gombert

One of the interesting ideas is that he's the last generation unburdened by the dictates of the Council of Trent, requiring the polyphony to be simplified, which the next generation of composers like Allegri (my god, I do love the Miserere) and Palestrina achieved so famously.


----------



## Jared (Jul 9, 2012)

science said:


> (I personally don't know about the line from Dunstable to the composers of the Eton Choirbook - guys like John Browne, Robert Fayrfax, William Cornysh. There seems to be at least 30 or 40 years missing there. But it's the time of the Wars of the Roses, and perhaps there isn't much to be known about English composition in that time.)


That's a great post, science... thanks so much for taking the time out to write it!

Just one word on Dunstable through Eton Choirbook: There is indeed a generational gap, but you have:

Dunstable (c1390-1453)
John Plummer (c1410-1484)
John Nesbett (c1430ish-c1488)
Richard Hygons (c1435-c1509)
Edmund Turges (c1450-?)
Walter Lambe (1450/1-?)

who all wrote religious choral music for the Roman Catholic church during the period of the Wars of the Roses (1455-1485) and of course, many other names are now lost...


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Jared said:


> That's a great post, science... thanks so much for taking the time out to write it!
> 
> Just one word on Dunstable through Eton Choirbook: There is indeed a generational gap, but you have:
> 
> ...


Thank you! I've never heard of those guys, but I will look them up!


----------



## Norse (May 10, 2010)

Oswald von Wolkenstein seems like a 'colorful figure' (attested to by the long section about his life on wikipedia).

This is an autobiographical song where he lists all the countries he's been to and complains how he's now is stuck with wife and kids. Also this is what Andreas Scholl sounds like when he sings baritone.


----------



## Jared (Jul 9, 2012)

science said:


> Thank you! I've never heard of those guys, but I will look them up!


Have you come across the complete recordings by The Sixteen of The Eton Choirbook? I must admit it's a little pricey, but if you are interested in music from the Early Renaissance in England (ie pre-Reformation) then this is simply a must. Unlike much of Europe, England suffered from 'the two Cromwells' the first of whom,. Thomas, burnt many texts of church music under the orders of Henry VIII, but miraculously, tEC survived and along with a few other noteable pieces, is able to provide an almosat unique snap-shot into the religious worship of the late 15th and early 16th Century:










the composers I listed above, all have some works contained in these 5 beautiful disks. for the work of Dunstable, I would recommend the considerably cheaper:










whilst you may also be interested in this disk of Sarum (Salisbury) Chant from the mid 13th Century, by the Tallis Scholars:










hope this helps..


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Since the subject has recently risen here, I thought I might open a thread devoted to Medieval Music. I have heard some suggest that Medieval Music all sounds the same (as some have suggested with regard to the Baroque... or even the Classical Era)... but in reality I find the Medieval Era has one of the broadest arrays of music... if only because of the rather hermetic or isolated nature of the era. The composers in baroque or Romantic era England or Russia were all aware of what was going on in Italy and Germany... and until the late 19th century interest in folk music and the national nature of music, you don't find such an array of musical styles:


i've listened to the videos you've posted, there is some beautiful music for sure but if your point was to demonstrate that there was a great variety frankly i've found all the pieces quite similar. Maybe it's due to the modal harmony with those pedals, but the effect is very static and without great changes.


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Jared said:


> hope this helps..


I have the Eton Choirbook by The Sixteen, and the Dunstaple has been on my wish list, but I didn't know about this disk which now joins it there!


----------



## Jared (Jul 9, 2012)

science said:


> I have the Eton Choirbook by The Sixteen, and the Dunstaple has been on my wish list, but I didn't know about this disk which now joins it there!


now I don't know what the postage is to Korea from Amazon in the UK, but here's a copy for a penny!!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sarum-chant...r_1_11?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1342200145&sr=1-11


----------



## crmoorhead (Apr 6, 2011)

Given that Josquin has rated in the top 50 composers picked by this forum, I have resolved to take the plunge into some medieval music. I'm ashamed to say that I know next to nothing about it. Could someone help steer my way towards 5 or 7 discs worth of introductory material. I would prefer to have a selection from a few core composers rather than a myriad of composers, but this is not absolutely necessary. If there is a boxed set that would fit the bill, that would also be great. Suggestions would be much appreciated!


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Josquin has been rising in people's estimation very fast. Twenty years ago, had there been an internet, I don't think he'd've ranked nearly so high. Anyway, the Tallis scholars have at least five disks of Josquin's work, and people seem to believe that they're all good (I've only heard two). I would personally say the one to start with is the one with "L'homme armé" and the mass based on it:










Another popular choice is the Missa pange lingua:










I intend eventually to hear all of the Tallis Scholars' recordings of Josquin, and I'd also like the Orlando Consort's recording of some of his motets.


----------



## Norse (May 10, 2010)

If we're going backwards in time from Josquin (which I personally have a hard time thinking of as 'medieval', but maybe the labels aren't that important here), the most important composer in the generation between Dufay and Josquin was Johannes Ockeghem (1410?/1425? - 1497) I don't actually have any particular recordings to recommend but if you're looking for the big names, Ockeghem would one of them.

I think his most famous work is the Missa prolationum, a sort of contrapuntal marvel with possibly the first use of canons at non-perfect intervals. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missa_prolationum I know the Hilliard Ensemble has a recording on EMI.


----------



## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I have this one by Philippe Herreweghe... with an older (better) cover... but it is quite good and dirt cheap:










Still another real bargain... for the Hilliard Ensemble, one of the best groups for the medieval repertoire:










And yet another bargain... two of the Tallis Scholars finest discs of Josquin for the price of one:










ps. _L'homme armé_ is included in the Tallis set while the Hilliard set includes their revered performance of the _Missa Pange Lingua_ which won the Gramophone Record of the Year Award for 1986 and remains the only Early Music disc ever to have done so.


----------



## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Has anyone else come across this?










The work is a musical setting of a medieval "miracle play"... resulting essentially in a medieval "opera".


----------



## Jared (Jul 9, 2012)

science said:


> I'd also like the Orlando Consort's recording of some of his motets.


Quite right... both these disks are worth owning...


----------



## Renaissance (Jul 10, 2012)

There is also a band, called Estampie, that plays medieval music in an almost scholastic manner. They also have an album called "Ludus Danielis", amoung many others.


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

A couple of interesting disks from Sequentia - Edda, and Lost Songs of a Rhineland Harper.


----------



## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Yes... I have both of those discs. They are quite interesting. 

I must look into that Orlando Consort recording of Ockeghem... admittedly one early composer that I am sadly unseasoned in.


----------



## Orpheus (Jul 15, 2012)

science said:


> (I personally don't know about the line from Dunstable to the composers of the Eton Choirbook - guys like John Browne, Robert Fayrfax, William Cornysh. There seems to be at least 30 or 40 years missing there. But it's the time of the Wars of the Roses, and perhaps there isn't much to be known about English composition in that time.)


I think this lack of information has a lot more to do with the English Reformation. During it there was an almost wholesale destruction of the centuries of musical traditon that were preserved in manuscript form. The monastaries that held them were appropriated by the state and most of their contents looted and destroyed by whatever opportunists came along. (I believe that many of the manuscripts which fell into the wrong hands or were not of immediate interest to anyone at the time ended up being used as toilet paper, or similar.) Very little from earlier times survived this short but ferocious orgy of destruction - what we now have is really just what fragmentary remnants (surviving by lucky preservation of a manuscript or being copied in continental Europe) have been pieced together over succeeding centuries. It's at most only a small sample of the thriving and influential musical culture that had existed before, and I don't know how far we can take what we now have as representative.

I don't think another European country has suffered such a catastrophic loss of its musical history, at that time or any other. It's probably a testament to the innate strength and vitality of musical culture in Britain at that time that within a few years of the Reformation it was up and running again, with artists such as Byrd, Tallis, Dowland, and Gibbons (to name a few!) flourishing during the Renaissance.

The Wars of the Roses consisted mostly of localised outbreaks of politically driven conflict, with a few larger battles, that occured sporadically over a fairly long period of time and left most of the nation's population living life much as usual. The worst sufferers were really the nobility, who were the prime movers of the conflict (due to having the most to gain if the side they supported finished on top) and almost destroyed themselves as an institution in the process.

I don't know how much was actually being composed during that rather nebulously defined period, but I do know that the monastaries if anything increased their standing due to the tenuous nature of central authority in comparison with their strong local influence, and their status as sancturaries (recognised by all warring factions) for those fleeing the conflict. I doubt the ability of the Church to fulfil its role in propagating musical tradition would have been much affected by the conflict in fact. It would also surprise me if there wasn't an increased turning of the population to religion during troubled times (as is usually the case), which may even have led to an increased demand for new sacred works. This all has to be speculation now of course. I suspect that we may not even know much about what we're missing from pre-Reformation English music.

To change the subject from pondering might-have-beens: how highly can you (anyone who has heard them) recommend those Sequentia disks? I've been looking at the Edda recording and wondering whether it was worth getting, the other one is new to me.


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Orpheus said:


> I think this lack of information has a lot more to do with the English Reformation. During it there was an almost wholesale destruction of the centuries of musical traditon that were preserved in manuscript form. The monastaries that held them were appropriated by the state and most of their contents looted and destroyed by whatever opportunists came along. (I believe that many of the manuscripts which fell into the wrong hands or were not of immediate interest to anyone at the time ended up being used as toilet paper, or similar.) Very little from earlier times survived this short but ferocious orgy of destruction - what we now have is really just what fragmentary remnants (surviving by lucky preservation of a manuscript or being copied in continental Europe) have been pieced together over succeeding centuries. It's at most only a small sample of the thriving and influential musical culture that had existed before, and I don't know how far we can take what we now have as representative.
> 
> I don't think another European country has suffered such a catastrophic loss of its musical history, at that time or any other. It's probably a testament to the innate strength and vitality of musical culture in Britain at that time that within a few years of the Reformation it was up and running again, with artists such as Byrd, Tallis, Dowland, and Gibbons (to name a few!) flourishing during the Renaissance.
> 
> ...


Phenomenal post! Thank you very much. I'll think about all of that.

As for the Sequentia disks, you don't want _my_ opinion - I don't know enough to evaluate them. But I enjoy them, and I would look forward to any comments that more knowledgeable people might have.


----------



## Orpheus (Jul 15, 2012)

science said:


> Phenomenal post! Thank you very much. I'll think about all of that.
> 
> As for the Sequentia disks, you don't want _my_ opinion - I don't know enough to evaluate them. But I enjoy them, and I would look forward to any comments that more knowledgeable people might have.


Thanks! Actually with regard to the seqentia disks I *did* want your "personal" opinion; I doubt that there are many people (maybe about a dozen scholars of ancient music, worldwide, and a few more amateur enthusiasts who have studied the subject in detail) who have the musicogical expertise necessary to make any kind of "objective" assessment of these recordings. I wasn't really expecting you to be one of them! That someone else has actually derived personal enjoyment from listening to them is a more compelling recommendation to my own personal enjoyment than an analysis of their historical authenticity. The latter may be an interesting intellectual exercise, but is neither here nor there in terms of aesthetics. I listen to early music mostly for enjoyment in any case.

Here are two recordings I've enjoyed quite a bit lately:



















These are both by the same group (mentioned already in the thread as the Oni Wytars Ensemble) using two more of their apparently numerous alter egos, Ensemble Unicorn and Ensemble Accentus. (I've deduced this from comparing performance style and the performers themselves, who are almost identical in each case. I have no idea why they feel the need to keep giving the ensemble different names for different recordings!)

Both recordings contain the signature sound of the group: the emphasis is very much on fun, energetic, often upbeat performance, heavily folk-influenced (and sometimes eastern or "gypsy" sounding) melodic and vocal styles, and a formidable battery of Middle-Eastern percussion including Daf, Tombek, and Darbuka to create powerful dance rhythms. It's a long way from what most people who have only heard the more austere forms of medieval sacred music would expect or necessarily feel comfortable with from this period, but sheds some stimulating new light on how more secularised, everyday music may have been heard (if we discount the historically dubious use of Iranian percussion instruments, that is). It's an aspect of medieval music (and of the lives it accompanied) that is often overlooked or misunderstood in modern times.


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Orpheus said:


> Thanks! Actually with regard to the seqentia disks I *did* want your "personal" opinion; I doubt that there are many people (maybe about a dozen scholars of ancient music, worldwide, and a few more amateur enthusiasts who have studied the subject in detail) who have the musicogical expertise necessary to make any kind of "objective" assessment of these recordings. I wasn't really expecting you to be one of them! That someone else has actually derived personal enjoyment from listening to them is a more compelling recommendation to my own personal enjoyment than an analysis of their historical authenticity. The latter may be an interesting intellectual exercise, but is neither here nor there in terms of aesthetics. I listen to early music mostly for enjoyment in any case.


Well, given that...

I'd say the "Lost Songs of a Rhineland Harper" is more essential to me personally. I enjoy them both, but that one is more... beautiful, I suppose. Both of them are utterly foreign, about as exotic as music can be. (Parts of the "Music of Ancient Greece" disk from Paniagua was even more alien to me.)

If I had to give up the Sequentia disk of Hildegard or one of these, I'd give up the Hildegard. But that would be after prolonged torture, of course. If my house burns down, I'm likely to die trying to get my CDs out....


----------



## Head_case (Feb 5, 2010)

Being a superficial medieval music listener, I don't know if anyone here is a fan of Adam de la Halle?

Daniel Mantey has recorded some of his works;






That looks suspiciously like a renaissance recorder to me, rather than a medieval recorder. Who knows. Anyway, I love hearing this kind of music live in early music festivals. It is so much more ... alive


----------



## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Orpheus said:


> Here are two recordings I've enjoyed quite a bit lately:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


These are both great discs. I played them over and over last Summer. You mention the powerful dance elements of this music, and I think you might also point out that a good deal of this was owed to the impact of Islamic/Middle-Eastern music upon the European music of the period... especially in those areas where Westerners came into direct contact with Easterners... Spain first and foremost.


----------



## hocket (Feb 21, 2010)

Regarding StLuke's and Science's comments about the Medieval/Renaissance divide. It's always been a bit of a grey area because unlike literature and art there isn't a really seismic shift in artistic style around this time, that only occurs with the baroque circa 1600. Western music follows a compatible tradition from the 12th C through to the end of the 16th, and whilst there are of course changes in style the distinctions we use are more for convenience than reflecting a real 'renaissance' in music. Usually its split between Dunstable, Dufay and Binchois being the 'first Renaissance composers', or Ockeghem founding the style Josquin's generation would go on to build upon receiving that distinction. Certainly Gombert is right out! Personally I'd call him mid-renaissance not early, but as I've indicated the label is of questionable meaning anyway. Just my tuppence.

Amongst medieval composers that haven't been mentioned someone I really enjoy is the Ars Subtilor master Johannes Ciconia:






Regarding the Josquin recommendations, personally I'd go with the outstanding Orlando Consort disc mentioned and also the fine efforts by the Hilliard Ensemble before the Tallis Scholars rather staid performances (incidentally I much prefer the version of the Pange Lingua by the Ensembles Clement Janequin and Organum to Peter Philips and his lot's award winning one). By the by, the Orlando's Ockeghem recording that was listed is great IMO, even better than the superb Clerks' Group discs which are also worth looking into.

Jared, regarding the 'moorish' Guillaume Machaut you should probably be wary of the highly controversial belief in Moorish influence that is perpetuated by Peres's Ensemble Organum. This is a view that is far from orthodox. Here's an Orlando Consort effort:






Your Dunstable recommendation was unfortunately not a favourite of mine. Far too much echo muffling the polyphony on that Tonus Peregrinus disc. Again the Orlando's and Hilliards efforts are the ones to get IMO.

Other stuff? Anything by Gothic Voices, but the Spirits of England and France series is particularly well worth checking out. Ensemble Gilles Binchois are outstanding and their collection of Binchois himself's music is the best I know of:






They've made memorable Dufay recordings too. Diabolus in Musica are another really essential medieval music group everyone should look out for.

PS: Science, for the gap between Dunstable and the Eton Choirbook composers it would be well worth mentioning Walter Frye who was internationally renowned and has been the subject of discs by the Hilliard Ensemble, the Clerk's Group and the Ferrara Ensemble.


----------



## Bas (Jul 24, 2012)

Thanks for thos recommendations mr. Hocket. I'm very much into the vocal Renaissance music since having discovered the 'Leidse Koorboeken project', (dutch for Choirbooks of the City Leiden), and I'm starting to think that the roots of the renaissance music, the medieval music is a new pathway that I'd like to explore.

You seem to have quite a lot recordings of the medieval, thanks again for the tip: a good starting point.


----------



## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

This is actually the disc that first brought Josquin to my attention:










The performance is by Peter Urquhart and the Capella Alamaire.

The Magnificat especially caught my attention:






Capella Alamaire sing with two or three voices to a part, and as a result their interpretation sounds more "choral" and perhaps less authentic by musicological standards... but then I'm no musicologist... just a listener... and I quite like what I hear.


----------



## Orpheus (Jul 15, 2012)

science said:


> Well, given that...
> 
> I'd say the "Lost Songs of a Rhineland Harper" is more essential to me personally. I enjoy them both, but that one is more... beautiful, I suppose. Both of them are utterly foreign, about as exotic as music can be. (Parts of the "Music of Ancient Greece" disk from Paniagua was even more alien to me.)
> 
> If I had to give up the Sequentia disk of Hildegard or one of these, I'd give up the Hildegard. But that would be after prolonged torture, of course. If my house burns down, I'm likely to die trying to get my CDs out....


Thanks for the opinion. The only problem is now that (having looked up all the recordings in question) I now have 4 more discs of early music I really should think about getting, where before there was just 1! Decisions, decisions...



Head_case said:


> Being a superficial medieval music listener, I don't know if anyone here is a fan of Adam de la Halle?


Do you mean that you are a listener of medieval music, who is superficial? Or that you prefer to listen to superficial medieval music? 

Seriously though, that actually looks quite interesting; he's not someone I've come across before.



StlukesguildOhio said:


> These are both great discs. I played them over and over last Summer. You mention the powerful dance elements of this music, and I think you might also point out that a good deal of this was owed to the impact of Islamic/Middle-Eastern music upon the European music of the period... especially in those areas where Westerners came into direct contact with Easterners... Spain first and foremost.


I think I was meaning to mention the Islamic (Moorish) influence on those discs of Spanish music I posted, then forgot to actually do so, so thanks for mentioning it. It's perhaps a less surprising influence in that (secular, by the way) Sephardic Jewish music than in the overtly Christian music kept by the monks in the Llibre Vermell de Montserrat that comprises much of the other disc. But of course at the time the music was created the Reconquista was by no means complete, and the peasants that the music seems to have been mainly created for (presumably based on popular folk melodies of the time to which "appropriate" lyics were added by the monks) would in many cases have been living under Islamic rulers and imbibing their culture within several generations.

The Desprez motets by the Orlando consort mentioned earlier have been re-released at a bargain price by Brilliant Classics recently, by the way. I'm almost certain it's the same recording:










I would agree that it's an excellent recording, this version only being marred by the fact that Brilliant didn't see fit to include lyrics in the insert. Typical of them really, but for such fine music at this price it's a minor quibble.


----------



## hocket (Feb 21, 2010)

Orpheus said:


> The Desprez motets by the Orlando consort mentioned earlier have been re-released at a bargain price by Brilliant Classics recently, by the way. I'm almost certain it's the same recording


Yes, it is.

*StLuke'sGuildOhio wrote:*



> Capella Alamaire sing with two or three voices to a part, and as a result their interpretation sounds more "choral" and perhaps less authentic by musicological standards... but then I'm no musicologist... just a listener... and I quite like what I hear.


I'm certainly not a one voice per part fascist (though I do tend to favour it). I don't think there's a problem of authenticity with multiple voices per part, in some circumstances it was certainly something that was used (Philip the Fair's chapel had over 60 singers IIRC). The advantage with 1V/P to my mind is greater clarity and that it's easier for the singers of different lines to respond to each other's individual performance. People like the Tallis Scholars and The Sixteen nearly always use multiple voices per part. Anyway, that's a lovely recording that I'm not familiar with so I'll have to look out for it.


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I wonder if we can get the mods to change the thread title to "Medieval and Renaissance Music?"


----------



## hocket (Feb 21, 2010)

science said:


> I wonder if we can get the mods to change the thread title to "Medieval and Renaissance Music?"


Nah, StLuke's just needs to start a renaissance thread to go along with his ones for the Medieval, Baoque and Classical eras. It's all his fault.:devil:


----------



## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Perhaps as opposed to the continual useless Mozart vs Modernism debate we might engage in more suggestions of music and/or specific performances from various eras that we found interesting... inspiring...

I did put in a request to the administration to change the name of this thread to _"Medieval and Renaissance Music"_... as the two eras seem to blur together in most people's thinking... my own included.

Among my own recent Renaissance/Medieval listening:










A truly marvelous disc! The music all comes from a single Renaissance document called _Cancionero de Montecassino_ which is believed to contain works composed between 1430 and 1480. Somehow the document has survived down through the centuries. From his home base in Naples, Alfons V attracted musicians and composers from across what was then the "known world." The _Cancionero de Montecassino_ presents a collected overview of the music of Alfons' court. There is a broad array of styles, instrumentation, and languages. Some of the music is purely instrumental, while other works are vocal... employing a varying number of voices.
**********

I've been plugging the names of various classical musician little-known to myself into Spotify to see just what would pop up. I made such an attempt with the name Johann Friedrich Agricola. Agricola, after all, had studied under J.S. Bach and later Johann Joachim Quantz before gaining an appointment as court composer to Frederick the Great. Unfortunately, very little came up by Agricola... or at least by Johann Friedrich Agricola. When I simply plugged the name Agricola into the site, I ended up hitting on Alexander Agricola... a far earlier composer (c. 1445 - 15 August 1506) by whom I have a couple of discs. The first disc on Spotify, however, was this:










Seeing the name of one of my favorite "Early Music" ensembles, Fretwork, and one of my favorite singers, the countertenor, Michael Chance, I had to give this a listen.

Some rather interesting work... instrumental pieces with folk music-like drones and sudden unexpected elements of shifting tonalities. The instrumental pieces are offset by the exquisitely beautiful chansons beautifully sung by Michael Chance... as well as the first recordings of 2 of the expert in Agricola's music, Fabrice Fitch's "agricologies"... pieces inspired by Agricola's work which retain a Renaissance framework... yet push even further the elements of dissonance and shifting tonalities. Quite an intriguing disc.


----------



## Jared (Jul 9, 2012)

^^ very interesting post, SLGO... many thanks.


----------



## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

I think the orthodox (East-European) middle age music is superior. Those of Byzantine Empire, Georgia and Russia.

But for the music specifically for Castle and villages dances, Britain and Germany had interesting pieces to offer. Spanish music of 15th and 16th century is also very beautiful.

My Italian knowledge in that era is near to zero!


----------



## SAKO (Jul 27, 2012)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> I probably know as much as the next guy if not less about Medieval music. Labels offering a very good selection include Naxos, Ricercar, Arcana.


I, like Harpsichord Concerto, know less than zilch about Medieval and Renaissance, but I'm going to have to learn...

A collegue approached me the other day and said "you like Classical music - I have a box full of the stuff that belonged to a (deceased) friend, I'll bring it in."

Yesterday I was presented with a box containing about 50 or more CDs, all music dating from about 1400 to circa 1650. I haven't had a good sort through it yet, but playing the odd sample at random some of the music is really rather good, some of the choral work actually quite beautiful, and some, well, let's just say an aquired taste.

When I sort through them properly I'll post a list and those in the know are welcome to comment. Lord knows when I'll get around to listening through them all.


----------



## samsondale (Nov 22, 2013)

Arsakes said:


> I think the orthodox (East-European) middle age music is superior. Those of Byzantine Empire, Georgia and Russia.


I know this is a bit of a resurrection of an old thread but ...

Do you have any recordings of Eastern European medieval music that you might recommend?


----------



## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I guess the long hiatus of this thread somewhat proves the fact that Medieval and Renaissance music is less popular than even post-WWII classical.

Eastern Medieval/Renaissance? These comes immediately to mind:


----------

