# Vivaldi fifth progressions ?



## Vivaldi (Aug 26, 2012)

There is a circle of fifths - that I know. There are different types of circle of fifths. Which type would Vivaldi typically use? Could you give me a forumla of the chord progressions (baring in mind that I'm a novice in terms of theory). 

Also, what other compositional devices did Vivaldi employ - if you could give me some examples of these too. 

I'm looking for a definitive formula to use here but I'm guess there isn't one, right? 

Thank you.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

The circle of fifths progression Vivaldi would use would be the diatonic one.

C-F-Bdim-E-A-D-G-C

The chromatic one would go out further:

C-F-Bflat-Eflat-Aflat-C#-F#-B-E-A-D-G-C

Other than that, look up sequential repetition.



Vivaldi said:


> I'm looking for a definitive formula to use here but I'm guess there isn't one, right?


Nope, and knowing the devices isn't going to make you a master at using them.


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## Vivaldi (Aug 26, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> The circle of fifths progression Vivaldi would use would be the diatonic one.
> 
> C-F-Bdim-E-A-D-G-C
> 
> ...


http://www.tonalityguide.com/xxx5.php

Such as the ones listed here?

Are there any others?


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## hreichgott (Dec 31, 2012)

Why not just listen to Vivaldi pieces and figure out the progressions?


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

hreichgott said:


> Why not just listen to Vivaldi pieces and figure out the progressions?


Agreed! It's good practice for ear training too.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

hreichgott said:


> Why not just listen to Vivaldi pieces and figure out the progressions?


I have on occasion tried to do this kind of thing with various types of music, but never been able to make head or tails of it. I have a reasonably good ear for music, but somehow I never seem able to connect theory to actual music. I have a feeling it takes many years of study and practice - which is what our OP will have to put in if he wants to understand Vivaldi and be able to pull off credible Vivaldi-sounding pieces.


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## hreichgott (Dec 31, 2012)

Depends on the pieces. Harmony is easier to hear in simple pieces and harder in more complicated pieces. With something that spends most of its time in a small number of chords and a pronounced bass line, something simple like the first movement of Vivaldi "Spring," a second- or third-year Suzuki student would be able to listen to it a bunch of times, then sit down at the piano with a recording playing and poke around by trial and error, and find at least the bass line for the opening section. Playing the bass line with the recording, we start to notice what the patterns are. Then we can try constructing major triads on top of the bass line and finding out where it works and where it doesn't (where it doesn't, the chord is probably in an inversion.) Going trial and error on an instrument and then figuring out the patterns is easier than listening and going straight to theory.


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## Altus (Jun 5, 2013)

Vivaldi, like all Italians and most Germans, used a set different formulas in different ways for each movement of a song. The Circle of Fifths was one of these. These formulas were nicknamed at the time, and the only nicknames we have that survived to today is the "Romanesca" Ever hear Pachelbels Canon? That is one giant Romanesca over and over and over and over again. The Monte, Fonte and Ponte also have survived.

A typical Vivaldian Concerto might use these formulas, I will be using the nicknames I know just to make an example. This is a very very simplified analysis of the third movement of Rv. 275 in E-minor. It is a dance in 3/4's time and has several circles of fifths present.

A disclaimer though, these words are meaningless without knowing the scale degrees that compose these formulas. Also these formulas can be modified slightly to suit the circumstances of the piece, and one must have proper taste or "affekt", and must understand what formulas can follow each other and which ones cant, the concept of "Il Filo" or "The Thread". Those two terms come to us from Leopold Mozart. This example below is meant to illustrate how the Italians and Germans, but mostly Italians, mass produced huge quantities of music very quickly. Count how many unique formulas compose the movement below I count 12. You need to know 12 simple formulas to make a movement such as that.

Concerto in E-minor Rv. 275:

[TUTTI] Opening Gambit (E-minor) - Circle of Fifths - Flourish on the Dominant - Cadenza Composta (Corelli) - [SOLO] - Solo Opening Gambit 1 - Half Cadence - Falling Thirds (cut) - Ascending Sequence (G-Major) - [TUTTI] Line Descent - Cadenza Composta - [SOLO] Solo Opening Gambit 2 - Half Cadence - Solo Opening Gambit 2 (repeated) - Half Cadence (Repeated) - Circle of Fifths - Cadenza Semplice (Vivaldi) - [TUTTI] Ascending Sequence (G-Major) - Line Descent - Cadenza Composta - [SOLO] Solo Opening Gambit 2 - Half Cadence - Ascending Sequence - Cadential Lead-In - [TUTTI] Cadenza Composta (Corelli) (E-minor) - [SOLO] Solo Opening Gambit 1 - Cadential Lead-In - Cadenza Composta - [TUTTI] Opening Gambit (R)- Circle of Fifths (R)- Flourish on the Dominant (R)- Cadenza Composta (Corelli) (R) - Coda.

FAST FORWARD TO 5:45 IN THE VIDEO FOR 3RD MOVEMENT.


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## Marisol (May 25, 2013)

Vivaldi said:


> There is a circle of fifths - that I know. There are different types of circle of fifths. Which type would Vivaldi typically use?


First of all in pure intonation it is not a circle, stacked fifths will never match a power of 2. 
However there is a circle in equal tempered or meantone tuning.

Vivaldi did not use equal temperament, but instead meantone or some well-tempered tuning. But modulation in those tunings is very restricted and you really cannot 'walk' the circle of fifth because it gets audibly out of tune quickly.

And sorry but F over B is not a fifth, not even close.


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## Altus (Jun 5, 2013)

The Structure of Vivaldi's Circle of Fifths, which is a title that only applies to the bass, is as follows using scale degrees: (The "N" means no note). This progression is a very strong progression and gives the impression of spinning. Hence a "circular" feel. Yes, it is not the COMPLETE circle of fifths, but it still follows it. The goal, musically, is to move from 1 to 5. The most likely formula to follow this will be either a cadence or a flourish on the dominant.

Concerto for Violin in E-flat Rv. 254
Violin 1:---N 6 6 5 5 4
Violin 2:---3 3 2 2 1 1
Viola:-----1 1 4 7 3 6
Bass:-----1 4 7 3 6 2


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