# Composer who smoked (and ones who did not)



## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Yet another rather silly thread, but why not? Such threads are often more fun than debates about chord progressions.

According to Wikipedia, both Bach and Beethoven smoked pipe. Bach even wrote a bit about it:

So oft ich meine Tobackspfeife BWV 515a





And Brahms was famous for his cigars. That makes three out of three Bs.

One seldom sees a photo of Rachmaninoff without a cigarette in hand. And so on and so forth.

I wonder if there were any that were anti-smoke? Chopin, perhaps (he already coughed quite enough without having to smoke too)? Is smoking the default position for a classical composer?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I think that until the 1980s or so, smoking was the default position for most men.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Puccini smoked so much that he got throat cancer.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Sibelius also developed a throat tumor, likely from cigars, that was successfully treated in 1908.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Sibelius also developed a throat tumor, likely from cigars, that was successfully treated in 1908.


Surprising that they could, given the technology at the time.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

brianvds said:


> Surprising that they could, given the technology at the time.


If it was just a tumour it is just to take it away. The problem is when there are methastases. Debussy had an operation for his rectal cancer and lived with it for several years. He smoked too.

Xenakis must have been a really heavy smoker he looked like he smoked a carton a day.


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## lifetweet (Jan 30, 2017)

Most composers smoke. Smoking has been a part of their lives since then. However, most of them haven't have the job for long. No matter where you ask, health experts always warn what smoking can do in human's body.


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## TodorYankov (Jan 25, 2017)

Dmitri Shostakovich was a smoker, and suffered from a lot health issues beacause of that and died of lung cancer


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## chalkpie (Oct 5, 2011)

Ravel liked his ciggies.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Bernstein too smoked and died of lung cancer. Back in those days, people smoked in their offices and in hospitals and well, pretty much everywhere.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Do any of todays musicians smoke that we know of?


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## Alydon (May 16, 2012)

Judith said:


> Do any of todays musicians smoke that we know of?


I used to see photographs of Martha Argerich always smoking and Maurizio Pollini used to be a smoker. Among chain smoking musicians from the recent past were Arthuro Benedetti Michelangeli and Annie Fischer who was known as 'ash tray Annie.'


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Alydon said:


> I used to see photographs of Martha Argerich always smoking and Maurizio Pollini used to be a smoker. Among chain smoking musicians from the recent past were Arthuro Benedetti Michelangeli and Annie Fischer who was known as 'ash tray Annie.'


I saw a picture from Pollini ( recent) smoking by a open window.


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## Guest (Feb 2, 2017)

Morton Feldman has to have been the #1 smoker/composer.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Bernstein too smoked and died of lung cancer. Back in those days, people smoked in their offices and in hospitals and well, pretty much everywhere.


Until fairly recently, it was widely thought that smoking is actually good for you...


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

And another one for the list - Tchaikovsky:










Perhaps he only smoked when nervous, which would make him a chain smoker.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

And so we catch them out, one by one.

Igor:



















Sergei:










Bela:


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

If Webern hadn't gone out to smoke a cigar, he might have lived to a ripe old age. So I guess the moral of the story is, smoking can ruin your health (to death in fact sometimes).


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## Casebearer (Jan 19, 2016)

Who cares who lives to a ripe old age. There are too many people already and most of them live far too long. How many people do we want on this earth? 8 billion isn't enough?

I see all of you approach the factual question of which composers smoked and who didn't from the modern health doctrine that it is a good idea that all individuals live long lives and end up in homes for the elderly. Well, I personally would like to live long, but that doesn't mean it's good for society so I've kept smoking as much as I can (enjoying it and taking the backlash for granted!). Dying is an essential part of living. The two seem to go together and it's a good idea to enjoy and be productive (as a composer or otherwise) during the first part of your life because you never you know if there will be a second part and which one of the 1000's causes of death will hit you on your road to eternity...


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## Alydon (May 16, 2012)

Casebearer said:


> Who cares who lives to a ripe old age. There are too many people already and most of them live far too long. How many people do we want on this earth? 8 billion isn't enough?
> 
> I see all of you approach the factual question of which composers smoked and who didn't from the modern health doctrine that it is a good idea that all individuals live long lives and end up in homes for the elderly. Well, I personally would like to live long, but that doesn't mean it's good for society so I've kept smoking as much as I can (enjoying it and taking the backlash for granted!). Dying is an essential part of living. The two seem to go together and it's a good idea to enjoy and be productive (as a composer or otherwise) during the first part of your life because you never you know if there will be a second part and which one of the 1000's causes of death will hit you on your road to eternity...


I'll keep on smoking but still want to live to be 97 if possible.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Casebearer said:


> Who cares who lives to a ripe old age. There are too many people already and most of them live far too long. How many people do we want on this earth? 8 billion isn't enough?
> 
> I see all of you approach the factual question of which composers smoked and who didn't from the modern health doctrine that it is a good idea that all individuals live long lives and end up in homes for the elderly. Well, I personally would like to live long, but that doesn't mean it's good for society so I've kept smoking as much as I can (enjoying it and taking the backlash for granted!). Dying is an essential part of living. The two seem to go together and it's a good idea to enjoy and be productive (as a composer or otherwise) during the first part of your life because you never you know if there will be a second part and which one of the 1000's causes of death will hit you on your road to eternity...


Regarding of your location is it tobacco or jazz tobacco?


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Yes as previously mentioned it was a social norm for some time and the health risks not known. I'm fairly certain that the majority of composers today are non-smokers. 

I've been a non-smoker for (nearly) 7 years now.


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## Metairie Road (Apr 30, 2014)

Sloe said:


> If it was just a tumour it is just to take it away. The problem is when there are methastases. Debussy had an operation for his rectal cancer and lived with it for several years. He smoked too.


Didn't anyone tell Debussy that cigars were meant to be smoked orally?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Metairie Road said:


> Didn't anyone tell Debussy that cigars were meant to be smoked orally?


I just fell of my chair from laughing.


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## Chris (Jun 1, 2010)

Metairie Road said:


> Didn't anyone tell Debussy that cigars were meant to be smoked orally?


Many a true word spoken in jest. I remember being told by a pharmeceutics lecturer that if you asked for (say) paracetamol in a pharmacy in France, if you didn't specifically ask for tablets you would be given suppositories.

He had also brought a suppository inserting device into the lecture, which thankfully he did not demonstrate.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Judith said:


> Do any of todays musicians smoke that we know of?


Lydia Mordkovitch - the violinist - smoked heavily througout her life. She died at 70 from cancer - but not lung cancer (I think it was cancer of the kidney)


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Metairie Road said:


> Didn't anyone tell Debussy that cigars were meant to be smoked orally?


Never heard of cigarette butts?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Never heard of cigarette butts?


Winstone Churchill smoked cigars and would give his half finished cigar butts to his gardener. The poor guy died of lung cancer!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Casebearer said:


> *Who cares who lives to a ripe old age.* There are too many people already and most of them live far too long. How many people do we want on this earth? 8 billion isn't enough?
> 
> I see all of you approach the factual question of which composers smoked and who didn't from the modern health doctrine that it is a good idea that all individuals live long lives and end up in homes for the elderly. Well, I personally would like to live long, but that doesn't mean it's good for society so I've kept smoking as much as I can (enjoying it and taking the backlash for granted!). Dying is an essential part of living. The two seem to go together and it's a good idea to enjoy and be productive (as a composer or otherwise) during the first part of your life because you never you know if there will be a second part and which one of the 1000's causes of death will hit you on your road to eternity...


People often say this until it coms to their turn!


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

In 1948 80 % of all men in England smoked. Then it is remarkable that Benjamin Britten appearently did not smoke when he died at the age of 63 of a heart failure. Smoking is also more common among homosexuals.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Sloe said:


> In 1948 80 % of all men in England smoked. Then it is remarkable that Benjamin Britten appearently did not smoke when he died at the age of 63 of a heart failure. Smoking is also more common among homosexuals.


At last - a non smoking composer. They seem to be rather rare. 

But as you point out, until fairly recently, smoking was very common indeed among everyone, not just composers.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Glazunov was pretty infamous for smoking cigars. Lots of stories about him, including playing piano while smoking.

For some reason they were hard for me to find this time around on the internet but here they are:


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

I think Handel smoked a pipe.


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## Casebearer (Jan 19, 2016)

Sloe said:


> Regarding of your location is it tobacco or jazz tobacco?


I must admit I didn't know what jazz tobacco means so I looked it up. Although jazz tobacco has a very cool ring to it I'm sorry to disappoint you. It's just plain American tobacco (_Nicotiana tabacum_). The brand I smoke is called Javaanse Jongens (Boys from Java, cool too) which is the best you can find. Coincidentally the brand was a long time sponsor of the world famous North Sea Jazz Festival (until that kind of sponsoring was forbidden). So it's a jazz tobacco after all. Alternative fact!


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Casebearer said:


> I must admit I didn't know what jazz tobacco means so I looked it up.


I thought you could guess.


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## Casebearer (Jan 19, 2016)

Smoking must have diminished my brain capacity


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

brianvds said:


> At last - a non smoking composer. They seem to be rather rare.
> 
> But as you point out, until fairly recently, smoking was very common indeed among everyone, not just composers.


It seems like he was an occasional smoker.

It varies from country to country. At the same time women smoked less than today in the forties. Smoking was as most common in the 70s and 80s because at that time it had become common among women. In China it is like it was in Europe in the 40s most men smoke women not so much. England was also outstanding in smoking cigarettes became common much earlier in England than other countries it was also in England the health risks became known. In the forties there was a rise in lung cancer and almost all that got it were heavy smokers.


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## Casebearer (Jan 19, 2016)

tdc said:


> Yes as previously mentioned it was a social norm for some time and the health risks not known. I'm fairly certain that the majority of composers today are non-smokers.
> 
> I've been a non-smoker for (nearly) 7 years now.


I agree, most of them probably don't smoke (regular or jazz). Maybe that explains why modern music isn't that popular anymore.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

brianvds said:


> Until fairly recently, it was widely thought that smoking is actually good for you...


The " Famous" tobacco lobby.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

I think John Cage smoked too, and I read he smoked weed but this was not verified.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Casebearer said:


> I agree, most of them probably don't smoke (regular or jazz). Maybe that explains why modern music isn't that popular anymore.


:lol:

Maybe, but I doubt it. How popular has classical music ever been?

I think the reasons for its current state are complex, varied and beyond the scope of this thread.


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## Casebearer (Jan 19, 2016)

DavidA said:


> People often say this until it coms to their turn!


I will be exactly the same. But at that moment in time I'll at least have enjoyed all of this tobacco. And you haven't when it's your time.

Also please define 'ripe, old age'. That sounds good but it looks like this.









In words that is:
- you can hardly stand on your legs and walk
- getting in the groceries takes you all day
- you don't hear that well and get suspicious of people (are they making fun of you?)
- your children and grandchildren hardly ever visit or call and when they do all you talk about is your own misery 
- your partner, all of your friends and most of your family have been dead for several years and you yourself are living 'in between'
- you're on 8 medications but you're always forgetting what pills you took and what they were for
- you feel pain everywhere
- you're not allowed to smoke anymore because you must live longer.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Henri Dutilleux lived to ripe old age:


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

"And a woman is only a woman, but a good cigar is a Smoke." --Rudyard Kipling


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Casebearer said:


> I will be exactly the same. But at that moment in time I'll a least have enjoyed all of this tobacco. And you haven't when it's your time.
> 
> Also please define 'ripe, old age'. That sounds good but it looks like this.
> 
> ...


I think things like creativity can really keep a person youthful. There are plenty of composers and other creative artists that have kept a razor sharp intellect and youthful spirit into very old age and until the end of their lives. I don't think people necessarily have to go down the path you are describing in old age.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

ArtMusic said:


> I think Handel smoked a pipe.


As did every other man in those days


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## Metairie Road (Apr 30, 2014)

Maria Callas blows one. From the look of bliss on her face I'd say this was the first *** of the day. The first one always hits the spot. Just a cough and a spit and she's ready for rehearsal.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Max Reger was a heavy smoker as well as an enthusiastic eater and a serious drinker - and although he was tall and solidly built a combination of all this (plus stress from overwork) probably brought on his fatal heart attack at the tender age of 43.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

I was recently listening to some old radio shows, I believe from the 1940s, and a few of them still included the advertisements. The one that caught my attention was "Carlton, the cigarette recommended by most doctors."


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Metairie Road said:


> View attachment 92132
> 
> 
> Maria Callas blows one. From the look of bliss on her face I'd say this was the first *** of the day. The first one always hits the spot. Just a cough and a spit and she's ready for rehearsal.


Died of a heart attach at the age of 53.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

JAS said:


> I was recently listening to some old radio shows, I believe from the 1940s, and a few of them still included the advertisements. The one that caught my attention was "Carlton, the cigarette recommended by most doctors."


Well, Carlton and Camel can't _both_ be right.


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## Casebearer (Jan 19, 2016)

tdc said:


> I think things like creativity can really keep a person youthful. There are plenty of composers and other creative artists that have kept a razor sharp intellect and youthful spirit into very old age and until the end of their lives. I don't think people necessarily have to go down the path you are describing in old age.


No of course not. There are no guarantees any way. Smoking heavily all your life is no guarantee you'll be spared old age, not smoking is no guarantee you'll live long and old age is not guaranteed to be disabling or depressing (although the chances that you'll find old age disabling or depressing are much bigger than the chances that you'll die prematurely of smoking).

I just object to a view on how to live life that obsessively centers on preventing (population) health risks by smoking for many reasons.

First of all because it singles out one (albeit important) risk factor to the extreme and we don't hear much about the rest, although that is starting to change (obesitas, stress, etc.). In the near future not just smokers but everybody has to feel guilty about their lifestyle and will be constantly dissatisfied with themselves for not meeting up to the medical standard. So it's not just them smokers that delivered it on to themselves but also you. And then you run under a truck...

Secondly because it is based on population statistics that most likely won't have any bearing on your personal fate. Your personal fate will most probably hit you from where you didn't see it coming. Genetics play a very important role in what your vulnerabilities are. And then there's chance.

In my opinion there is a fundamental problem with how epidemiological knowledge on a population level is constantly translated to morals/ethics on an individual level by almost everybody and in policies of government and insurance companies as well.

My neighbour, an English professor who had just been pensioned at 60 years of age when we came to live here 10 years ago, was a very healthy, sporting man (non-smoking, non drinking). I saw him every day on his road bike. A few years later he had a hip operation that turned out bad. He never really recovered from it and has been in constant severe pain ever since. Now his intervertebral discs seem to have vanished also and he's in pain even more. He's in bed for 21 hours a day and only comes out of it for 2-minute walks when the pain from lying in bed gets bigger than the pain he already has. His wife (healthy herself, around 65) is in a constant depression about her situation.

My mother-in-law never smoked, never drank. Objectively she should have lived longer than any of her generation. But she got Lewy-body dementia and within five years was a shadow of her former self. She died at 71. My father also died at 71 but he smoked two packages every day for all of his life and drank enough to make him happy.

I can go on and on from my personal experience. I see some relation with personal behavioral risks but not enough to warrant this moral pressure from the (medical) community.


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## Alydon (May 16, 2012)

JAS said:


> I was recently listening to some old radio shows, I believe from the 1940s, and a few of them still included the advertisements. The one that caught my attention was "Carlton, the cigarette recommended by most doctors."


I do believe that in the near future tobacco smoking will be looked upon as taking snuff was in the eighteenth century, not only bad for your health but an archaic throw back to the two world wars and black and white movies where simply everyone seemed to smoke. However you dress it up smoking is a horrible, dirty and dangerous habit which if invented now wouldn't see the light of day. The only defenders of smoking is from the deluded and chronically addicted who somehow perceive the habit as chic and rebellious in the face of an ever increasing nanny state. I write this as a smoker of thirty years and though go long periods without a ciggie still can't quit for good.


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## Vronsky (Jan 5, 2015)

Fugue Meister said:


> If Webern hadn't gone out to smoke a cigar, he might have lived to a ripe old age. So I guess the moral of the story is, smoking can ruin your health (to death in fact sometimes).


Smoking killed Webern, but saved Russell.





on topic:


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2017)

Vronsky said:


> Smoking killed Webern, but saved Russell.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is a picture of Webern.


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## Vronsky (Jan 5, 2015)

Traverso said:


> This is a picture of Webern.


Yes, I know that's Webern. I shared Schoenberg's photo because he always looks more photogenic than his colleague Webern.


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## Czech composer (Feb 20, 2016)

From the website about Antonín Dvořák:

http://antonin-dvorak.cz/en/did-you-know

SMOKING

Dvorak enjoyed smoking, and he often smoked, preferably a pipe. But his wife Anna would drive him out of the flat if he lit up his pipe, so he preferred to smoke cigarettes. The composer is known for an anecdotal remark he addressed to one of his students: "You don't smoke? Then you'll never be a composer. All composers have to smoke!"


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Alydon said:


> I do believe that in the near future tobacco smoking will be looked upon as taking snuff was in the eighteenth century, not only bad for your health but an archaic throw back to the two world wars and black and white movies where simply everyone seemed to smoke. However you dress it up smoking is a horrible, dirty and dangerous habit which if invented now wouldn't see the light of day. The only defenders of smoking is from the deluded and chronically addicted who somehow perceive the habit as chic and rebellious in the face of an ever increasing nanny state. I write this as a smoker of thirty years and though go long periods without a ciggie still can't quit for good.


The biggest problem to me, now that everyone understands the real risk, is that it is a habit that everyone around the smoker is forced to participate in, which makes it different from most other forms of addictions. (Although, it must be admitted that everyone has to deal with a bad-tempered drunk, in a different way.) Second hand smoke can also be dangerous, but I don't think there is such a thing as second hand drinking. While it is true that there are few guarantees in life, other than the fact that most of us will face dangerous situations and health problems of one kind or another, it hardly makes sense to go actively looking for trouble.

My father smoked from the age of 11 to about 29, particularly when he was in the military (since cigarettes were issued in their rations, and there were long periods with nothing much to do except smoke). He has not had a cigarette in over 50 years, and still feels the urge (slightly) after a big meal. The best advice I have heard from people who have been long-term smokers and successfully quit is that it is sometimes good to cut down on your most habitual cigarette first (such as when you are driving or on the phone, or after a meal), then once that connection is broken, go cold turkey and take each day on a day by day basis. (Thinking that you must not have a cigarette today is easier than thinking that you can never have another one.) The other thing they say is that you must remember that feeling the urge to smoke is not a failure, only giving in to that urge is the failure. Best of luck with your efforts.


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## Casebearer (Jan 19, 2016)

Alydon said:


> I do believe that in the near future tobacco smoking will be looked upon as taking snuff was in the eighteenth century, not only bad for your health but an archaic throw back to the two world wars and black and white movies where simply everyone seemed to smoke. However you dress it up smoking is a horrible, dirty and dangerous habit which if invented now wouldn't see the light of day. The only defenders of smoking is from the deluded and chronically addicted who somehow perceive the habit as chic and rebellious in the face of an ever increasing nanny state. I write this as a smoker of thirty years and though go long periods without a ciggie still can't quit for good.


Well, I like strong views and you maybe right on the way the future world will look at smoking. I can see it's a dirty and dangerous habit myself. You won't hear me say otherwise. I haven't defended smoking per se, I only wish people wouldn't single out smoking as the cause of all evil all of the time and be critical of other behavior and environmental influences that are not healthy as well.

Where I live all people (mostly non-smokers) have a fireplace and they burn whatever they want in there. Depending on the wind that smoke comes directly into my house. Compared to burning 0,5 cubic meter of wood every day in winter smoking 50 grams of tobacco is hardly a comparison. The same thing with all these barbecueing non-smokers in summer. Having your own fireplace or barbecueing is a horrible, filthy and dangerous habit as well, if you want to look at it that way, but you don't hear anybody about that.

That's just looking at it on a local scale. Coal fired energy plants and all other fossile fule sources are a problem as well. 
Some of my family members don't smoke or drink, instead they make 20.000 air miles every year. I make zero. 
Or they drive 40.000 kilometers in their car, I'm mostly under 15.000 km's. 
Or they eat Basmati rice. Many farmers producing the rice they enjoy die from cancer young because of the pesticides needed to produce enough for export. 
Et cetera.

Don't single out smoking if you're judging other people's behavior (or even your own).


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## Casebearer (Jan 19, 2016)

JAS said:


> The biggest problem to me, now that everyone understands the real risk, is that it is a habit that everyone around the smoker is forced to participate in, which makes it different from most other forms of addictions. (Although, it must be admitted that everyone has to deal with a bad-tempered drunk, in a different way.) Second hand smoke can also be dangerous, but I don't think there is such a thing as second hand drinking. While it is true that there are few guarantees in life, other than the fact that most of us will face dangerous situations and health problems of one kind or another, it hardly makes sense to go actively looking for trouble.


I think the risk of second hand smoke is exaggerated. And if there is one, think about your own contribution to burning fossile fuels and how that influences the quality of the environment.

Also, everybody around somebody that drives a car is forced to participate in the risks of car driving. You might think that is a ridiculous comparison but it's exactly the same. People tend to look at car driving as a necessity or societal fact and not as a personal choice. But my wife doesn't drive, she does it all on bicycle and was almost run over by a scooter last week driving at high speed. In her experience other people put her live at risk.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Casebearer said:


> I think the risk of second hand smoke is exaggerated.


Probably, yes. The anti-smoking campaign, like many similar things, went from sound health advice to a sort of naive moralistic thing, and it wouldn't surprise me if tobacco is soon banned altogether (even as pot becomes legal!).

Back to the topic, I saw a YouTube documentary on Shostakovich yesterday, and I can confirm that he definitely smoked. Like a chimney. 

Listening to some Haydn at the moment, so naturally I wonder whether Papa Joseph indulged...

Czech composer: Nice Dvorak quote.


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