# Opera fans, I have a question



## AlainB (Nov 20, 2011)

Hey all,

Thought this question would be best suited in this forum.

I recently begun private singing lessons, and discovered that I was a bass-baritone (although she judged it whilst I had a cold, call it wrong timing), with "extreme" high reach to higher notes. I couldn't hit the high C though, and I still can't now that my cold is over.

It was a very big disappointment to me, to hear that I was no (dramatic/lyric) tenor. I'm a huge fan of the tenor repertoire, and always wanted to be able to sing the arias without much hassle.

I'm only 19 years old, so I guess my voice is still in development. My question is: how many of you prefer tenor to the other voice types? After all, from what I have heard, tenor is usually the most loved and wanted, as everybody awaits that exciting, high end note.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Be comforted, to be good tenor you have to be great tenor, to be good baritone you just have to be good baritone. Lesser compeition, more chances for satysfying career.

You may also feel better after exploring operas with great baritone parts, like Tchaikovsky's Onegin, Bellini's I Puritani (two baritones have great stuff to sing out there), Wagner's Hollander, Donizetti's L'Elisir d'Amore, Rossini's Barbiere and Mozart's Nozze di Figaro... there are plenty of great arias and ensambles for baritone voice in operas. 

Also keep in mind that you can sing all lieder repertoire with any voice you have and baritone is well prefered in many great song cycles.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Basses for me, then baritones. My favourite operas are those where a main character is sung by a bass or baritone. Simon Boccanegra, Macbeth, Mefistofele, Faust, Attila to name a few.

I think many of the tenor roles are one-dimensional & a bit boring.

Apart from one Bavarian guy who I think is a tenor of some sort & who we've nicknamed _El guapo_, many of the female fans on here like the guys with the deeper voices.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

You can always work to expand your range, but you should still embrace whatever voice type comes most naturally to you. Pushing yourself too far out of your comfort level will only produce mediocre results and may shorten your career.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

I can relate -- many of my favorite male arias are baritone. I too have started taking voice lessons (my goal is to feel comfortable and confident enough to try out for a position in the chorus of Opera Colorado ... dream goal is to actually make it  ) and while I thought I was a bass-baritone, my voice seems much more suited for bass; any baritone arias are probably a stretch -- my Largo al Factotum is much better sounding an octave lower. C'est la via I suppose, though all things being equal I'd much rather sing Non Piu Andrai than Oh, wie will ich triumphieren.


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## CountessAdele (Aug 25, 2011)

I'm one of the ladys who prefer deeper voices.  We could never have enough bass-baritones!


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

I couldn't really care less about high notes.

I'm all for baritones and bass baritones. Oh the joys of Don Giovanni, Eugene Onegin and sexy badasses Scarpia and Luna.


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## AlainB (Nov 20, 2011)

Aramis said:


> Be comforted, to be good tenor you have to be great tenor, to be good baritone you just have to be good baritone. Lesser compeition, more chances for satysfying career.
> 
> You may also feel better after exploring operas with great baritone parts, like Tchaikovsky's Onegin, Bellini's I Puritani (two baritones have great stuff to sing out there), Wagner's Hollander, Donizetti's L'Elisir d'Amore, Rossini's Barbiere and Mozart's Nozze di Figaro... there are plenty of great arias and ensambles for baritone voice in operas.
> 
> Also keep in mind that you can sing all lieder repertoire with any voice you have and baritone is well prefered in many great song cycles.





amfortas said:


> You can always work to expand your range, but you should still embrace whatever voice type comes most naturally to you. Pushing yourself too far out of your comfort level will only produce mediocre results and may shorten your career.





mamascarlatti said:


> I couldn't really care less about high notes.
> 
> I'm all for baritones and bass baritones. Oh the joys of Don Giovanni, Eugene Onegin and sexy badasses Scarpia and Luna.


Hey,

Thanks to you all for your feedback, it's most certainly appreciated. 

I'll keep the advice in mind, I never really thought of singing arias that belong to a different voice type & fach. But then again, it never really happens that often.

Cheers.


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## gpolyz (Nov 25, 2011)

First of all you must be greatful for having a singing voice. It so much better to be a GOOD bass-barirone rather than a mediocre tenor. If you are blessed with a bass-baritone voice you have an open ticket to attack most demanding roles like Hollaender, Hans SachsWotan, Escamillo and the possibility of a career that will take you to your fifties. ( most tenors lose it after the mid-forties).


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

Oh, baritones are all the rage today! Be happy about it. 

I personally prefer lower voices. Will never understand what Elisabetta sees in that whiney emo Carlo when she's married to a BAMF bass. Or what Leonora sees in Manrico.

The only tenor type I really love is English tenors.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Sieglinde said:


> The only tenor type I really love is English tenors.


Oh yes, Ian Bostridge - John Mark Ainsley - Anthony Rolfe Johnson - Mark Padmore - Philip Langridge


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Talking of home grown singers (well home grown for us in UK) I've just got this and Geraint Evans is a fabulous Falstaff. My favourite version now.


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## AlainB (Nov 20, 2011)

Sieglinde said:


> Oh, baritones are all the rage today! Be happy about it.
> 
> I personally prefer lower voices. Will never understand what Elisabetta sees in that whiney emo Carlo when she's married to a BAMF bass. Or what Leonora sees in Manrico.
> 
> The only tenor type I really love is English tenors.


Lovely. I personally took some looks at baritones, and I really like Bryn Terfel and Ruggero Raimondi. 



mamascarlatti said:


> Oh yes, Ian Bostridge - John Mark Ainsley - Anthony Rolfe Johnson - Mark Padmore - Philip Langridge


I'm surprised Paul Potts wasn't mentioned!


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## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

Not me - mezzos and baritones thank you very much. (Excepting Jessye Norman who is difficult to categorize in terms of her 'fach' and the late great Fritz Wunderlich).



AlainB said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Thought this question would be best suited in this forum.
> 
> ...


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

AlainB said:


> I'm surprised Paul Potts wasn't mentioned!




Oh he has his very own thread but it was so popular, the admin team have put it in 'invisible mode' because it was clogging up the forum.

Only select people with passwords can enter this zone.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

AlainB said:


> Lovely. I personally took some looks at baritones, and I really like Bryn Terfel and *Ruggero Raimondi*.


Aah Alain, you're my friend for life. I'll even forgive you the Paul Potts remark.


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## Operafocus (Jul 17, 2011)

Am I the only person here finding it a bit odd that a singing teacher can tell "what voice you are" after only a few lessons? The sister of a friend of mine went to music college for a long time before she had developed her voice enough to pinpoint exactly where her main quality is.

Also, considering you're only 19, it doesn't necessarily mean you're a baritone / will be a baritone forever. My partner, now a spinto tenor, started out as a baritone, did all the baritone rep for years, until a new singing teacher said, "Actually, I think you're a high tenor..." and suddenly he found himself doing the Rossini tenor rep. A guy I know is a lyric baritone who can hit a satisfying high C but definitely has the baritone quality. He started out as a 2nd bass, then bass/baritone, and now specialises in Verdi baritone rep. In other words, just because one teacher put you in the baritone bracket after judging you once with a cold, doesn't mean that's *necessarily* what you are. 

When it comes to what I prefer, it all depends on the singer. The feel, the sound, the warmth or the excitement. I, like you, love the tenor rep but I'm a sucker for deep male voices.


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## AlainB (Nov 20, 2011)

Operafocus said:


> Am I the only person here finding it a bit odd that a singing teacher can tell "what voice you are" after only a few lessons? The sister of a friend of mine went to music college for a long time before she had developed her voice enough to pinpoint exactly where her main quality is.


My apologies for the rather big bump, but now that I've had the chance to develop some more, I can only say that you're definitely right.

At first, she said I was most likely going to be bass-baritone, but now that some time has passed, it is going to look more like a full bass with extended range. 

Thus far, my "good-quality-sound" range is from Eb2 to F#4, and I can also reach the G4 but it sounds not as nice... yet, I suppose. 

Which also makes me ask this question, since I'm rather confused:

My teacher said that men have an issue (I'm not sure what the formal term for this is, it'd be nice if someone could clear that up for me please), where they "physically" sing an octave higher than they sound - whether they be a tenor, baritone, or bass. But on internet, I read that this is only for the tenor/treble clef?

So, in order to say what your range is, should you say what you _sound_ like, or what you "physically" sing (thus, an octave higher (ie. you sound like you sing E2, but you actually sing E3)?

Once again, apologies for the rather big bump. :x


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## Operafocus (Jul 17, 2011)

AlainB said:


> Which also makes me ask this question, since I'm rather confused:
> My teacher said that men have an issue (I'm not sure what the formal term for this is, it'd be nice if someone could clear that up for me please), where they "physically" sing an octave higher than they sound - whether they be a tenor, baritone, or bass. But on internet, I read that this is only for the tenor/treble clef?
> 
> So, in order to say what your range is, should you say what you _sound_ like, or what you "physically" sing (thus, an octave higher (ie. you sound like you sing E2, but you actually sing E3)?


I'm not sure what you mean by "physically sing an octave higher than they sound"...? I'm not an expert here, but you sound what you are, surely? Or are you/she talking about falsetto?

If you want to read about voice, I recommend an article on page 188 till 210 of this document, written by singing teacher/coach Michael Trimble.

*Headline:*
Breathmaster: An Insight into the Biomechanics of Great Singing

I'm glad you're on your way to finding your voice  Interesting how you've moved down towards bass when you originally thought you might be a tenor! Back then you said you couldn't hit a high C, but I have a friend who's a baritone who can do a B without too much effort, but wouldn't get to a high C either. If you are in fact a bass, I'd focus on getting that amazing bass sound rather than focusing on getting up to a high C. You're only 19, so you've got all the time in the world (unlike tenors who are expected to have it all sorted to do the nice, romantic rep in their 20s). For instance, Italian bass Ferruccio Furlanetto is 63 and still sounding absolutely amazing!

I find Samuel Ramey an interesting case, because I can't quite make up my mind as to whether he's a bass with an extremely good baritone top, or a bass-baritone with an extremely good bottom.


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## Moira (Apr 1, 2012)

Why do tenors have more beautiful voices than baritones? Because baritones have brains where tenors have resonance.


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## Operafocus (Jul 17, 2011)

Moira said:


> Why do tenors have more beautiful voices than baritones? Because baritones have brains where tenors have resonance.


But _do_ tenors necessarily have more beautiful voices than baritones?


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Moira said:


> Why do tenors have more beautiful voices than baritones?


Not sure that they do


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## AlainB (Nov 20, 2011)

Operafocus said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by "physically sing an octave higher than they sound"...? I'm not an expert here, but you sound what you are, surely? Or are you/she talking about falsetto?


Well, what I'm talking about is pretty much literally what I wrote there.  A good way to try and see what I mean, would be to press a note on the piano (for instance C4/Middle C), sing it, and whilst doing so press C3/C below Middle C. You'll hear an "overlapping" sound, and you'll notice that the one an octave lower is the one you actually sound like.

That's what my question was about.



> I'm glad you're on your way to finding your voice  Interesting how you've moved down towards bass when you originally thought you might be a tenor! Back then you said you couldn't hit a high C, but I have a friend who's a baritone who can do a B without too much effort, but wouldn't get to a high C either. If you are in fact a bass, I'd focus on getting that amazing bass sound rather than focusing on getting up to a high C. You're only 19, so you've got all the time in the world (unlike tenors who are expected to have it all sorted to do the nice, romantic rep in their 20s). For instance, Italian bass Ferruccio Furlanetto is 63 and still sounding absolutely amazing!


Thanks, I suppose I do have the time of the world yeah... and truth be told, having the immense stress as a tenor isn't exactly appealing... :lol:

Also thanks for the link to that document, it was a very interesting read (what I read thus far, and I love the mentioning of Appoggio breathing technique, which I'm trying to develop at the moment). 



> I find Samuel Ramey an interesting case, because I can't quite make up my mind as to whether he's a bass with an extremely good baritone top, or a bass-baritone with an extremely good bottom.


Oh yes, certainly; I've been wondering the same thing. My favourite of his would be Mefistofele, and another one that's certainly a favourite of mine is a duet with James Morris - Verdi's Don Carlo.






IMHO, I'd say he's more-so a full bass with a beautiful top. He hit a beautiful and quite extremely powerful low E in the video above, but also a beautiful and strong high F.



sospiro said:


> Not sure that they do


All hail Sherrill Milnes. I absolutely loved this performance of his at the Met (Nemico Della Patria). I got chills when I heard that applause at the end.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

AlainB said:


> ... but now that some time has passed, it is going to look more like a full bass with extended range.


Apologies for quoting you so selectively but what you say there is really exciting. You'll get to sing 'stuff' like this.


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

There certainly are some beautiful Baritone voices around. While a Tenor may be more appropriate in a 'romantic' role The guys with the lower notes and the Mezzo Sopranos....Its all happening below the belly button baby!


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