# Haydn's thoughts on middle-period Beethoven



## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

I'm sitting here watching "In Search of Haydn" on Youtube(had to pay $3.99) and loving it! I've enjoyed both of the other versions of "In Search of" based on Mozart and Beethoven as well. But its got me curious if there is any record of what Haydn thought of middle-period or "Heroic Period" Beethoven? I know I've read that Haydn listened to Beethoven's Op. 1 Piano Trios and recommended against him publishing the third one in particular. But middle-period things like the Eroica Symphony, Kreutzer Sonata, and the Razumovsky quartets must have been a shock to the system of Haydn and I wonder whether he enjoyed them or not. Compared to the more gentle classical styles of Mozart and himself, he had to have seen this is an entirely stunning thing.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Oddly, I've never read any Haydn comments on any works after 1795 except for his caution on Op. 1 No. 3. I'm sure he must have had some thoughts, especially since Beethoven was very much competing with him up through about 1801-2, but nary a peep was recorded that I know of. The movie "Eroica" has him attending the private rehearsal of that symphony, already pretty much played out, and commenting -- but of course that didn't take place.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Oddly, I've never read any Haydn comments on any works after 1795 except for his caution on Op. 1 No. 3. I'm sure he must have had some thoughts, especially since Beethoven was very much competing with him up through about 1801-2, but nary a peep was recorded that I know of. The movie "Eroica" has him attending the private rehearsal of that symphony, already pretty much played out, and commenting -- but of course that didn't take place.


Actually, I've read somewhere that Haydn had heard the Eroica symphony and praised it, saying Beethoven expanded the symphonic language.


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

It really is a shame that Haydn wasn't 10 or even 5 years younger because I would have loved to see if he changed his style of composition after hearing Beethoven evolve into the giant that he was. But apparently by the early 1800's he was just too mentally worn out and old to keep composing much less try to evolve his style to compete with Beethoven. 

I think it would also have been mind-blowing for Mozart to see what Beethoven was doing just a few short years after his death. If Mozart had lived into the 1800's, can you even begin to imagine how Beethoven might have inspired him to even more groundbreaking heights, therefore inspiring Beethoven in return. Not that either one needed more inspiration but it would have been an amazing relationship.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Mozart died young so that Beethoven could continue developing the Classical genre into Romanticism. Pure and simple.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

ArtMusic said:


> Mozart died young so that Beethoven could continue developing the Classical genre into Romanticism. Pure and simple.


Or he just died young...for no particular reason...and that's just what happened.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Dustin said:


> It really is a shame that Haydn wasn't 10 or even 5 years younger because I would have loved to see if he changed his style of composition after hearing Beethoven evolve into the giant that he was. But apparently by the early 1800's he was just too mentally worn out and old to keep composing much less try to evolve his style to compete with Beethoven.
> 
> I think it would also have been mind-blowing for Mozart to see what Beethoven was doing just a few short years after his death. If Mozart had lived into the 1800's, can you even begin to imagine how Beethoven might have inspired him to even more groundbreaking heights, therefore inspiring Beethoven in return. Not that either one needed more inspiration but it would have been an amazing relationship.


Personally, I don't think Haydn was trying to compete with Beethoven at this point. He was regarded as the world's greatest composer and proved that he could continue innovating well into the early 1800s with great works like the Harmoniemesse. I'm sure Haydn greatly appreciated and admired Beethoven's talent, but at this point, I don't think he viewed him as a 'threat'.


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Personally, I don't think Haydn was trying to compete with Beethoven at this point. He was regarded as the world's greatest composer and proved that he could continue innovating well into the early 1800s with great works like the Harmoniemesse. I'm sure Haydn greatly appreciated and admired Beethoven's talent, but at this point, I don't think he viewed him as a 'threat'.


Yea I pretty much agree. I don't think "compete" is the right word really. I just meant that he probably would have naturally evolved his compositional style after viewing the things Beethoven was doing.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Dustin said:


> Yea I pretty much agree. I don't think "compete" is the right word really. I just meant that he probably would have naturally evolved his compositional style after viewing the things Beethoven was doing.


I'm not sure I can agree without some doubts. Vienna was a very competitive market. Beethoven and Haydn came head-to-head with the quartets Op. 18 and Op. 77 respectively, an expected half-dozen each commissioned by the same guy and written at the same time. Beethoven delivered all while Haydn stopped at two. I've read (totally without support) that Haydn was basically conceding the contest.

Beethoven was probably still mad at Haydn for his Op. 1 remarks, and Haydn called Beethoven (behind his back) the "great mogul." May have been no love lost at that point, though Beethoven expressed great fondness for Haydn in later years. But we weren't there, and history is vague if not silent.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

KenOC said:


> I'm not sure I can agree without some doubts. Vienna was a very competitive market. Beethoven and Haydn came head-to-head with the quartets Op. 18 and Op. 77 respectively, an expected half-dozen each commissioned by the same guy and written at the same time. Beethoven delivered all while Haydn stopped at two. I've read (totally without support) that Haydn was basically conceding the contest.
> 
> Beethoven was probably still mad at Haydn for his Op. 1 remarks, and Haydn called Beethoven (behind his back) the "great mogul." May have been no love lost at that point, though Beethoven expressed great fondness for Haydn in later years. But we weren't there, and history is vague if not silent.


Well, I don't think Haydn would ever concede any contest. He took the challenge of Handel with the oratorios, etc. It was a matter of his failing health at this point.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Dustin said:


> I think it would also have been mind-blowing for Mozart to see what Beethoven was doing just a few short years after his death. If Mozart had lived into the 1800's, can you even begin to imagine how Beethoven might have inspired him to even more groundbreaking heights, therefore inspiring Beethoven in return. Not that either one needed more inspiration but it would have been an amazing relationship.


Perhaps they would have become bitter rivals, engaged in a mutually destructive petty contest, leaving the stage clear for Hummel. 

As for Haydn, I seem to remember reading that he was quoted as complaining that Beethoven's writing was "becoming more and more fantastic." He probably did not quite get middle period Beethoven. But he was a good enough musician, and a generous enough man, to respect what Beethoven did, even if he did not necessarily enjoy it.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

You think Haydn was "a good enough musician"? LOL!!

He was only one of the top 5 ever!!!


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

hpowders said:


> You think Haydn was "a good enough musician"? LOL!!


Tut! - He'll be saying his music is "quite good" next :|


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Headphone Hermit said:


> Tut! - He'll be saying his music is "quite good" next :|


Not as fine as Schoenberg, but pretty good, nevertheless.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

hpowders said:


> Not as fine as Schoenberg, but pretty good, nevertheless.


you have to know when to hold 'em .... well, you know the rest


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## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

hpowders said:


> You think Haydn was "a good enough musician"? LOL!!
> 
> He was only one of the top 5 ever!!!


Taken out of context it does seem laughable. Taken as it was written makes perfect sense. He was, in fact, a good enough musician to appreciate the groundbreaking music that Beethoven was writing. NOW, just suppose, and this is merely a hypothetical, but just suppose there was a composer with Haydn's longevity AND Schubert's talents. Whoa!!! Now THERE'S a "pretty good musician".

Perhaps he'd crack the ever elusive Top 4. (Save your tomatoes. They're better used in salad.)


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

ArtMusic said:


> Mozart died young so that Beethoven could continue developing the Classical genre into Romanticism. Pure and simple.


As John McEnroe used to say, "You CAN'T be serious!!" :lol::lol:


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Dustin said:


> Yea I pretty much agree. I don't think "compete" is the right word really. I just meant that he probably would have naturally evolved his compositional style after viewing the things Beethoven was doing.


I don't think so. Haydn was conservative, not a revolutionary. His personality would clash with Beethoven's.
Haydn was NOT an applecart upsetter. He would not have changed his style in any radical way.
That's my opinion.
Of course we will never really know.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Dustin said:


> It really is a shame that Haydn wasn't 10 or even 5 years younger because I would have loved to see if he changed his style of composition after hearing Beethoven evolve into the giant that he was. But apparently by the early 1800's he was just too mentally worn out and old to keep composing much less try to evolve his style to compete with Beethoven.
> 
> *I think it would also have been mind-blowing for Mozart to see what Beethoven was doing just a few short years after his death. If Mozart had lived into the 1800's, can you even begin to imagine how Beethoven might have inspired him to even more groundbreaking heights, therefore inspiring Beethoven in return. Not that either one needed more inspiration but it would have been an amazing relationship.*


I've pondered this same idea many a time, always with regret. Mozart and Beethoven playing off each other is the stuff of "Fantasy Concert Hall". I suspect one or the other may have gotten to atonality before it was all over.

As for Haydn's thoughts on middle period Beethoven .... I suspect Haydn would have been pleased, and quite understanding. Haydn was himself an experimenter and expander of the musical formats given him. He could only have appreciated Beethoven's work. Haydn had taught Beethoven (in some way or other!), and any great teacher appreciates when his students reach beyond. The teacher can settle back and nod his head and say "Of course, he couldn't have done that without my tutoring."


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

scratchgolf said:


> Taken out of context it does seem laughable. Taken as it was written makes perfect sense. He was, in fact, a good enough musician to appreciate the groundbreaking music that Beethoven was writing.


Yes, that is exactly what I meant and that is what I wrote. Apparently you are a good enough grammarian to get it. 



SONNET CLV said:


> Haydn had taught Beethoven (in some way or other!), and any great teacher appreciates when his students reach beyond. The teacher can settle back and nod his head and say "Of course, he couldn't have done that without my tutoring."


Or perhaps his thoughts were more along the lines of "Oh heavens, what have I done, what have I done?"


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

hpowders said:


> I don't think so. Haydn was conservative, not a revolutionary. His personality would clash with Beethoven's.
> Haydn was NOT an applecart upsetter. He would not have changed his style in any radical way.
> That's my opinion.
> Of course we will never really know.


I don't think Haydn would've changed his style either. He was a mature musician with a clear idea of what he wanted with his own sound. He was also used to succeeding in his own experimentation. Imo, he would've continued developing music the way his own intuition would've told him to.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Judging from his music, Haydn must have been the most well-adjusted composer who ever lived.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

hpowders said:


> I don't think so. Haydn was conservative, not a revolutionary. His personality would clash with Beethoven's.
> Haydn was NOT an applecart upsetter. He would not have changed his style in any radical way.
> That's my opinion.
> Of course we will never really know.


Conservatism was a condition of his employment for much of his career. He did change his style fairly radically in the early 1770s. His employer told him to desist. The only far-reaching conclusions about his personality I would draw are that he liked being employed and he lived in an era when revolutionaries made aristocrats nervous.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

hpowders said:


> Judging from his music, Haydn must have been the most well-adjusted composer who ever lived.


Or maybe he just assumed his audience wasn't interested in his personal issues. Unlike certain later composers I could name (but won't).


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

EdwardBast said:


> Conservatism was a condition of his employment for much of his career. He did change his style fairly radically in the early 1770s. His employer told him to desist. The only far-reaching conclusions about his personality I would draw are that he liked being employed, and he lived in an era in which it might have been difficult to get away with being a revolutionary.


In that case, he was much smarter than WA Mozart.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Or maybe he just assumed his audience wasn't interested in his personal issues. Unlike certain later composers I could name (but won't).


1.You can't write music like he did and not be well-adjusted. Even our esteemed Haydn scholar HBTC supports my view on this. A special thank you to HBTC, this evening. :tiphat:

2. Or maybe it doesn't matter what I would write, because you will play devil's advocate no matter what I say.

Some folks just love to argue.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

hpowders said:


> You can't write music like he did and not be well-adjusted. Even our esteemed Haydn scholar HBTC supports my view on this.


Doing what you want is much better than being well-adjusted. Some folks resist being adjusted. This isn't necessarily unhealthy.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

EdwardBast said:


> Doing what you want is much better than being well-adjusted. Some folks resist being adjusted. This isn't necessarily unhealthy.


I completely disagree with you on that. If you are well-adjusted, the rest takes care of itself.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

hpowders said:


> 1.You can't write music like he did and not be well-adjusted.


Looks like there is an intervening edit - which I choose to ignore.

His mature music exhibits humor, even 'rascally' humor. I was going to say that indicates being well-adjusted, but then I am probably not.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Ukko said:


> Looks like there is an intervening edit - which I choose to ignore.
> 
> His mature music exhibits humor, even 'rascally' humor. I was going to say that indicates being well-adjusted, but then I am probably not.


One doesn't have to be well-adjusted to appreciate a composer who was. Heck, why do we bother to listen. For me, Haydn makes me smile and calms me down. I wish I was more well-adjusted and didn't need Haydn to survive in this crazy world, but at this point in time, I can't.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Or maybe he just assumed his audience wasn't interested in his personal issues. Unlike certain later composers I could name (but won't).


And rather strangely, it turned out he was wrong on this. Audiences quickly fell under the spell of the musical exhibitionists and self-indulgent onanists of the 19th century. Whom I could name, but also won't.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

brianvds said:


> And rather strangely, it turned out he was wrong on this. Audiences quickly fell under the spell of the musical exhibitionists and self-indulgent onanists of the 19th century. Whom I could name, but also won't.


Thankfully, Anton Rubinstein's day has passed.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

brianvds said:


> And rather strangely, it turned out he was wrong on this. Audiences quickly fell under the spell of the musical exhibitionists and self-indulgent onanists of the 19th century. Whom I could name, but also won't.


Hey, you dissin' Ludwig? C'mon, fess up!


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Personally, I don't think Haydn was trying to compete with Beethoven at this point. He was regarded as the world's greatest composer and proved that he could continue innovating well into the early 1800s with great works like the Harmoniemesse. I'm sure Haydn greatly appreciated and admired Beethoven's talent, but at this point, I don't think he viewed him as a 'threat'.


We also have too much on record of how ready Haydn was to laud other composer's whose work he recognized as genius.

I'm thinking he was one of those souls who was self-realized enough to be truly generous and without envy of the success of others.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Hey, you dissin' Ludwig? C'mon, fess up!


Hey! If the shoe fits...


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

hpowders said:


> 1.You can't write music like he did and not be well-adjusted. Even our esteemed Haydn scholar HBTC supports my view on this. A special thank you to HBTC, this evening. :tiphat:
> 
> 2. Or maybe it doesn't matter what I would write, because you will play devil's advocate no matter what I say.
> 
> Some folks just love to argue.


Always glad to engage in Haydnesque conversations, although 'Haydn scholar' is not very appropriate for me. I don't have musical training, just know some chords on the guitar and a few scales. Luckily, we can understand Haydn's great music intuitively, just by noticing the twists and turns in it.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Always glad to engage in Haydnesque conversations, although 'Haydn scholar' is not very appropriate for me. I don't have musical training, just know some chords on the guitar and a few scales. Luckily, we can understand Haydn's great music intuitively, just by noticing the twists and turns in it.


Thank you professor. Looking forward to your upcoming lecture, "FJ Haydn, Cheerful, Most Well-Adjusted Conformist in Music".

Hope some tickets are still available. :tiphat:


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

hpowders said:


> One doesn't have to be well-adjusted to appreciate a composer who was. Heck, why do we bother to listen. For me, Haydn makes me smile and calms me down. I wish I was more well-adjusted and didn't need Haydn to survive in this crazy world, but at this point in time, I can't.


Haydn = Prozac?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

EdwardBast said:


> Haydn = Prozac?


Haydn would have been smart enough to realize that Prozac works no better than placebo.


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## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Haydn would have been smart enough to realize that Prozac works no better than placebo.


I'm no shill for pharmaceuticals but please be serious here. This is just an absurd statement.

*For the record, I'd be more than happy to compare notes and experiences in PM, and stick to the topic at hand here.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Haydn would have been smart enough to realize that Prozac works no better than placebo.


"I recommend a fifth of Jack and a bottle of Prozac." Guaranteed to cure what ails you!


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

EdwardBast said:


> Haydn = Prozac?


Or Prozart, perhaps? Now there's a thought...


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

EdwardBast said:


> "I recommend a fifth of Jack and a bottle of Prozac." Guaranteed to cure what ails you!


With a fifth of Jack, the Prozac becomes "irrelevant".


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## hreichgott (Dec 31, 2012)

hpowders said:


> I wish I was more well-adjusted and didn't need Haydn to survive in this crazy world, but at this point in time, I can't.


I can't either.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

I'm sure he knew Beethoven was the better Composer.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

hreichgott said:


> I can't either.


I hear you, loud and clear!! I don't know where I would be if it wasn't for this wonderful classical music!!


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

neoshredder said:


> I'm sure he knew Beethoven was the better Composer.


I'm sure he knew Beethoven was a _different_ composer than he was


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

neoshredder said:


> I'm sure he knew Beethoven was the better Composer.


Oh. Okay. I can go home now, since an acknowledged authority on the subject has given the definitive answer.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Headphone Hermit said:


> I'm sure he knew Beethoven was a _different_ composer than he was


Absolutely true. Two completely different composing personalities.


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## Funny (Nov 30, 2013)

I will just say that in my early life I listened to much, much, much more Beethoven than Haydn and knew that Beethoven was the better composer, because look how he took the shopworn classical tropes and put his unique stamp on them, turning them into Romantic gestures that informed the entire coming century of Western music.

Now that I've listened to all of Haydn's symphonies, I've revised that, because of the great many times I've heard in Haydn those same gestures that I thought of as "uniquely" Beethovenian. Ludwig is obviously one of the all-time greats, but I'm not as sure now that he deserves the titanic reputation he has as compared to Haydn.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Funny said:


> I will just say that in my early life I listened to much, much, much more Beethoven than Haydn and knew that Beethoven was the better composer, because look how he took the shopworn classical tropes and put his unique stamp on them, turning them into Romantic gestures that informed the entire coming century of Western music.
> 
> Now that I've listened to all of Haydn's symphonies, I've revised that, because of the great many times I've heard in Haydn those same gestures that I thought of as "uniquely" Beethovenian. Ludwig is obviously one of the all-time greats, but I'm not as sure now that he deserves the titanic reputation he has as compared to Haydn.


Completely agree with you. Early on when I was a mere youth who didn't know any better, Beethoven was king.

Now, I would place both Mozart and Haydn ahead of him. At this time I find Beethoven's music "tiring" and I rarely play it, save for an occasional Diabelli Variations or Hammerklavier Sonata performance.

As for the symphonies, it would have to be recommended period performances and even then....


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Funny said:


> I will just say that in my early life I listened to much, much, much more Beethoven than Haydn and knew that Beethoven was the better composer, because look how he took the shopworn classical tropes and put his unique stamp on them, turning them into Romantic gestures that informed the entire coming century of Western music.
> 
> Now that I've listened to all of Haydn's symphonies, I've revised that, because of the great many times I've heard in Haydn those same gestures that I thought of as "uniquely" Beethovenian. Ludwig is obviously one of the all-time greats, but I'm not as sure now that he deserves the titanic reputation he has as compared to Haydn.


Well, I think Beethoven's popularity will continue to be on a larger scale than Haydn's - his music is more subjective, dramatic and generally closer to the modern idea of popular music. That's probably why he appeals more to people 'getting into' classical - Beethoven can impress right away with sheer size and with the serious nature of his music. Haydn, to me, was something completely special, exactly because his approach was not the standard, 'modern' one that we know from radio, hollywood, etc. Haydn's humour, his way of communicating with the listener and getting him/her involved in his pieces, his love of experimentation and 'seeing what he can do' with small musical building-blocks was unusual, and yet it seemed completely ingenious to me right away. Beethoven, Haydn and Mozart, all three, are amazing in their own ways. I would say they are equal, in all honesty. Each has aspects where he is superior to the other two, and others where he is not quite so strong, imo. So it's all a matter of taste in the end .


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Translated from the German of the times:

"Beethoven? You know, that nut's a genius! Ludwig, not Carl. However, you know, he always seems to be badly in need of a bath, heh, heh! This conversation isn't being recorded is it? And please, do not call me 'Papa'. I find it condescending. To be continued after I return from my trip to London. I hope the coach's shocks have been set to comfort mode. Wiedersehen!"


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

Maybe it's time to debate who came up with the idea of a "scherzo" in place of a minuet? 

But, it's probably been debated here before somewhere, sometime, knowing TC....


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Vesteralen said:


> Maybe it's time to debate who came up with the idea of a "scherzo" in place of a minuet?
> 
> But, it's probably been debated here before somewhere, sometime, knowing TC....


Can this really be debated?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Can this really be debated?


On TC, ANYTHING can be debated. Leave your sense of logic and reality at the door please.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

hpowders said:


> On TC, ANYTHING can be debated. Leave your sense of logic and reality at the door please.


hehe, good one hpowders . We just can't get enough of debating, can we?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> hehe, good one hpowders . We just can't get enough of debating, can we?


3.7 % verifiable facts; 96.3 % opinions masquerading as facts.

By the way the percentages are simply my opinion.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Can this really be debated?


Well, I've seen it debated on other sites.

I just brought it up because I had always heard it was LvB who invented it. I never realized the point about Haydn's String Quartets because I only started listening to them recently.

Then you get the Monteverdi contingent...though that was not a case of scherzo in place of minuet, but, you know....


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## satoru (May 29, 2014)

Vesteralen said:


> Maybe it's time to debate who came up with the idea of a "scherzo" in place of a minuet?
> 
> But, it's probably been debated here before somewhere, sometime, knowing TC....


Yeah, it's Beethoven. Haydn wrote something close in some of his symphonies, but didn't name them such. Beethoven struggled to escape from the shadow cast by Haydn, and Scherzo nicely did it for him. Beethoven also frequently used Rondo form, which matched his temperament better, I guess. Haydn wasn't as phlegmatic as Beethoven was, so frequent use of light stepped minuet by Haydn sounds more right choice for him, in my personal opinion.

Digging out previous discussion on Beethoven's role in Scherzo and Rondo forms in any of TC forum is, well, quite daunting. I hope it's OK to repeat the same statement over and over.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_Quartets,_Op._33_(Haydn)#Opus_33_No._1

Six Haydn Quartets Op 33, all with Scherzi instead of Minuets. (1781)


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## satoru (May 29, 2014)

Vesteralen said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_Quartets,_Op._33_(Haydn)#Opus_33_No._1
> 
> Six Haydn Quartets Op 33, all with Scherzi instead of Minuets. (1781)


Indeed, a set of quartets with Scherzo instead of minuet... Thanks for pointing them out.


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## Funny (Nov 30, 2013)

I'm sure those had no effect on the thinking of Beethoven, who would be totally unacquainted with the most celebrated works of his teacher...


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Funny said:


> I'm sure those had no effect on the thinking of Beethoven, who would be totally unacquainted with the most celebrated works of his teacher...


The Op. 33 are also known by the nickname "Gli Scherzi." But the so-called scherzi in each quartet are hard to tell from regular minuets, despite their names. Haydn also used the term later, as in the famous "Witches' Scherzo" in his Op. 76 Quinten quartet.

I would suspect that Beethoven, who prided himself on knowledge of previous music, knew the Op. 33 well and perhaps had the scores. The opus was published, popular, and widely circulated.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

KenOC said:


> The Op. 33 are also known by the nickname "Gli Scherzi." But the so-called scherzi in each quartet are hard to tell from regular minuets, despite their names. Haydn also used the term later, as in the famous "Witches' Scherzo" in his Op. 76 Quinten quartet.
> 
> I would suspect that Beethoven, who prided himself on knowledge of previous music, knew the Op. 33 well and perhaps had the scores. The opus was published, popular, and widely circulated.


How are the scherzi hard to tell from regular menuets? They definitely sound different to me. Just listening to the dynamic contrasts in Op. 33 No. 2 makes this clear - the strong, punchy and fast rhythm contrasted with moments of silence, and with the witty trio using the said glissando technique as an extra.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> How are the scherzi hard to tell from regular menuets? They definitely sound different to me.


Well, I'll rephrase and say that *I* find them difficult to tell apart in earlier Haydn. Others may not have the same difficulty.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Well, I'll rephrase and say that *I* find them difficult to tell apart in earlier Haydn. Others may not have the same difficulty.


KenOC, you're a classical music listener. You should definitely be able to tell these apart. Just listen to the Buchberger Quartet interpretation, they emphasize the scherzo aspect really well. A normal menuet is a slow, steady dance. Haydn's scherzo sounds almost drunk - a mad rhythmical rampage composed using terse building blocks (not the usual case for menuets, which generally have more expansive melodies) is followed by distinct pauses and intricate question-answer interplays between the instruments. It would certainly be challenging to dance to something like this. The trio might be more 'normal' - but it's the strong contrast between the two sections that makes the scherzo original, imo.


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