# The lautenwerck



## Aurelian (Sep 9, 2011)

This was supposedly Bach's favorite. I never heard of it. Did you?

https://www.npr.org/sections/decept...ably-never-heard-of-the-long-lost-lautenwerck


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Yes, and I can hear why he might've preferred it to the harpsichord. There's more warmth compared to the iciness of the harpsichord.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Surprisingly (at least to me), I have NOT heard of this baroque keyboard variant.

Seems logical that *Bach* would have loved it.


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## milk (Apr 25, 2018)

pianozach said:


> Surprisingly (at least to me), I have NOT heard of this baroque keyboard variant.
> 
> Seems logical that *Bach* would have loved it.


There are some interesting recordings of Bach on lautenwerck. Robert Hill, Wolfgang Rubsam and John Paul are three notables. Rubsam is the most controversial for his style brise and extreme rubato. Most people seem not to like John Paul but, despite him being a bit conservative, I quite like his recordings. 
I have to say that I like Lautenwerck but I do not find it as satisfying in large doses as the harpsichord. It's pleasing when you're in the mood for it though.


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

The instrument built and played by the Hungarian musician Gergely Sárközy has a very rich and sonorous sound.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Aurelian said:


> This was supposedly Bach's favorite. I never heard of it. Did you?
> 
> https://www.npr.org/sections/decept...ably-never-heard-of-the-long-lost-lautenwerck


I thought Bach's favourite was the clavichord, but you may be right.

However if it he did like it, it was a lapse of goof judgement I think. The Lute Harpsichord is possibly my least favourite keyboard instrument, the one by Robert Hill that Rübsam plays is really the only one I can bear. In all the others, the sound gets on my nerves after 10 minutes. Maybe 18th century lute harpsichords were much better, maybe the art of building them has been lost.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> I thought Bach's favourite was the clavichord, but you may be right.
> 
> However if it he did like it, it was a lapse of goof judgement I think. ...


It sounds similar to the clavichord to me. The coldness and spikiness of the harpsichord make it my second-least favorite keyboard instrument (next to the fortepiano  )


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

consuono said:


> It sounds similar to the clavichord to me.


Not to me.

But I should add that there are many types of clavichords, and they do sound different. I don't know what type Bach knew.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> Not to me.
> 
> But I should add that there are many types of clavichords, and they do sound different. I don't know what type Bach knew.


They're similar to me in having a relatively short decay. Maybe Bach had something like this at home at one time. I wouldn't mind having one of these:


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

From the article that the OP linked:

(My editor, Steve Smith, was reminded of a quote from the late conductor Sir Thomas Beecham comparing the sound of harpsichords to "two skeletons copulating on a tin roof in a thunderstorm.")

Exactly. :lol: :lol:


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

There is a recording of the Goldberg Variations on lautenwerck:


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

I like the clavichord, harpsichord, and lautenwerck for when I'm listening in the shower: lack of dynamics. I also like the counterpoint such a dynamic lack reveals.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

ORigel said:


> I like the clavichord, harpsichord, and lautenwerck for when I'm listening in the shower: lack of dynamics. I also like the counterpoint such a dynamic lack reveals.


What do you mean, lack of dynamics?


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

I know of it by the name lute-harpsichord. It's a lovely instrument, much warmer than the large double manual harpsichord and it is a great instrument to play the great works by Bach.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> What do you mean, lack of dynamics?


Loud and soft, forte and piano.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

consuono said:


> Loud and soft, forte and piano.


That exists on a clavichord and it exists on harpsichords by coupling.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

milk said:


> There are some interesting recordings of Bach on lautenwerck. Robert Hill, Wolfgang Rubsam and John Paul are three notables. Rubsam is the most controversial for his style brise and extreme rubato. Most people seem not to like John Paul but, despite him being a bit conservative, I quite like his recordings.
> I have to say that I like Lautenwerck but I do not find it as satisfying in large doses as the harpsichord. It's pleasing when you're in the mood for it though.


I have Rubsam Goldberg's. I like the sound of the instrument but not the performance


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> That exists on a clavichord and it exists on harpsichords by coupling.


It's pretty much unnoticeable on a clavichord except for the player. The desire for more pronounced dynamics is what brought the piano to be.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

consuono said:


> It's pretty much unnoticeable on a clavichord except for the player.


 I can hear clavichord loud and soft clearly - I just checked with Leonhardt's recording of the Ritter suite, and I recall the same when I've heard clavichords in the flesh, as it were.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> I can hear clavichord loud and soft clearly - I just checked with Leonhardt's recording of the Ritter suite, and I recall the same when I've heard clavichords in the flesh, as it were.


Ok. :lol: :lol:


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

consuono said:


> It's pretty much unnoticeable on a clavichord except for the player. The desire for more pronounced dynamics is what brought the piano to be.


As #Mandryka pointed out, you do have dynamics via coupling (adding another rank of strings). A clavichord, not being plucked, does allow for dynamics via touch it even allows for a type of vibrato. Piano players playing baroque are taught to use "terraced" dynamics - a move directly to mf from mp without any intervening crescendo or from mf to mp without any intervening diminuendo. It is this lack of subtlety that led to the development of the piano which allows much better control of attack, duration, and volume.


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## Axter (Jan 15, 2020)

Aurelian said:


> This was supposedly Bach's favorite. I never heard of it. Did you?
> 
> https://www.npr.org/sections/decept...ably-never-heard-of-the-long-lost-lautenwerck


Never heard this before and glad I did now. Thanks.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Taggart said:


> . It is this lack of subtlety that led to the development of the piano which allows much better control of attack, duration, and volume.


How does the piano allow for greater control of attack?


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Mandryka said:


> I thought Bach's favourite was the clavichord, but you may be right.


I've heard that said of CPE(?)

I really like the sound of the tangent piano.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I think it’s in Forkel, I’ll check later, something along the lines that JSB preferred clavichord, that the harpsichord was soulless for him, and the piano too coarse.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Taggart said:


> As #Mandryka pointed out, you do have dynamics via coupling (adding another rank of strings). A clavichord, not being plucked, does allow for dynamics via touch it even allows for a type of vibrato. Piano players playing baroque are taught to use "terraced" dynamics - a move directly to mf from mp without any intervening crescendo or from mf to mp without any intervening diminuendo. It is this lack of subtlety that led to the development of the piano which allows much better control of attack, duration, and volume.


I've played both. The dynamic range of both is *extremely* limited, but that doesn't interfere with the charm of the clavichord at any rate.


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

David Schulenberg points out that Forkel's comment that Bach "liked best to play upon the clavichord" (Am liebsten spielte er auf dem clavichord) probably refers to a large "double clavichord with pedal" such as Bach apparently owned at his death, used by organists to practice at home. A clavichord with pedal-board would permit the organist to practice both the manual and the pedal parts in the warmth and convenience of home. While clavichords were typically single manual instruments, two could be stacked to provide multiple keyboards further replicating the organ. Pedal harpsichords were similarly used for domestic practice, though the quieter sound of the pedal clavichord might be preferred by organists having close neighbors! Forkel mentions this as well as the double harpsichord with pedals as something Bach used for playing contrapuntal pieces.

According to Igor Kipnis, Forkel's assertion that J.S. Bach preferred the clavichord because the harpsichord, despite its resources, "had not enough soul for him" should not be accepted uncritically as it reflects the outlook of the clavichord-centered _Empfindsamkeit_ generation of C.P.E. Bach and so may reflect Forkel's aesthetic more than Bach's.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Also interesting is this fortepiano sorta-kinda like those Bach would've known toward the end of his life. I think this actually sounds better than the later Mozart-era ones:





Anyway back to the subject of the OP, I really like the sound here:


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

consuono said:


> Also interesting is this fortepiano sorta-kinda like those Bach would've known toward the end of his life. I think this actually sounds better than the later Mozart-era ones:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes you should try and hear this for the piano - I was astonished when I first heard it


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> Yes you should try and hear this for the piano - I was astonished when I first heard it
> 
> View attachment 153067


Thanks, I'll look for it. I've never played or even been near an actual fortepiano.


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