# The I'm Addicted To Brahms Thread



## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

THE I'M ADDICTED TO BRAHMS THREAD​







Something happened yesterday when a fellow member, may have been Bach, asked why I never talked about Brahms much. I told him that he gets more than enough press by other members on this forum, but was that the right thing to say?

No, it wasn't, so now this brings me to this thread. I love Brahms' music and consider him one of the greatest composers of all-time.

Share anything you want to here.

To get the ball rolling, how many CDs do all you guys own of Brahms? What do you consider the pinnacle Brahms symphony set?


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## BuddhaBandit (Dec 31, 2007)

Brahms is far and away my favorite Romantic era composer (actually, R. Strauss is a close second, but I consider him a 20th century composer). I've got about 30 CDs of the man's music and play at least something by him every other day. In particular, I like the piano music (solo, but the concertos, too, of course) and his chamber music (the SQs are great). Of course, the famous symphonies are terrific, but they're played so much that I don't listen to them as much as his other works. And the EDR is wonderful.

So, best symphony set? I'm rather partial to Toscanini's recordings from the fifties, but I generally like most of what Toscanini puts out. Solti's cycle brings out the lower register instruments (bassoons, basses, etc), which is a very nice touch. I'm not crazy about Karajan's cycle(s), but his set from the seventies is generally acclaimed.

How about you, MI? What (and whose) Brahms hits you hard?


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Brahms is one of those composers whose melodies linger in your memory long after you've listened to it.

I don't have a great deal of Brahms, but I like his symphonies, concertos, overtures, Hungarian Dances, chamber music. I once had a cd containing one of his _Piano Trios _which I lost in a move. That was 5 years ago, but the melodies still pop up in my head. So too one of his _String Sextets_, which I had the pleasure to see performed live back in the 90's.

I also think his _Double Concerto _is a fairly underrated work, eclipsed somewhat by his other concertos. I really like how he puts in some Hungarian folklore in the last movements. & that mighty fugue at the end of _Symphony No. 4_ has to be one of the pinnacles of symphonic writing, perhaps even eclipsing what Beethoven wrote?


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

BuddhaBandit said:


> Brahms is far and away my favorite Romantic era composer (actually, R. Strauss is a close second, but I consider him a 20th century composer). I've got about 30 CDs of the man's music and play at least something by him every other day. In particular, I like the piano music (solo, but the concertos, too, of course) and his chamber music (the SQs are great). Of course, the famous symphonies are terrific, but they're played so much that I don't listen to them as much as his other works. And the EDR is wonderful.
> 
> So, best symphony set? I'm rather partial to Toscanini's recordings from the fifties, but I generally like most of what Toscanini puts out. Solti's cycle brings out the lower register instruments (bassoons, basses, etc), which is a very nice touch. I'm not crazy about Karajan's cycle(s), but his set from the seventies is generally acclaimed.
> 
> How about you, MI? What (and whose) Brahms hits you hard?


Yes, that Solti set is amazing. It's my favorite set. I'm not too crazy about Karajan's cycle either. He doesn't reach the heights that Solti does, but Karajan's is definitely not bad by any stretch of the word.

I actually like everything Brahms wrote, but I enjoy all of his concertos. "Variations On A Theme By Haydn," "Academic Oveture," and "Tragic Overture" are some pieces that really hit me hard everytime I hear them.

I own quite a bit of Brahms:

- 4 Symphonies, Variations (3-CD set)
Orch: Vienna Philharmonic
Cond: Karl Bohm
Label: DG

-The 4 Symphonies; Overtures, Haydn Variations, Piano/Violin Concertos (5-CD set)
Orch: Bavarian Radio Symphony
Cond: Sir Colin Davis
Label: RCA

-Piano Concerto No. 1
Orch: Atlanta Symphony
Cond: Levi
Label: Telarc

-Symphonies (3-CD set)
Orch: Berlin Philharmonic
Cond: Karajan
Label: DG

-Ein Deutsches Requiem: A German Requiem
Orch: Atlanta Symphony
Cond: Robert Shaw
Label: Telarc

-Ein Deutsches Requiem: A German Requiem
Orch: Berlin Philharmonic
Cond: Sir Simon Rattle
Label: EMI

-Bernstein Conducts Brahms (5-CD set)
Orch: Vienna Philharmonic
Cond; L. Bernstein
Label: DG

-The Symphonies (3-CD set)
Orch: Royal Concertgebouw
Cond: Riccardo Chailly
Label: Decca

-The Symphonies (4-CD set)
Orch: Chicago Symphony
Cond; Sir Georg Solti
Label: Decca

-Complete Hungarian Dances
Orch: London Symphony
Cond; Neeme Jarvi
Label: Chandos

-Hungarian Dances
Orch: Budapest Symphony Orch.
Cond; Istvan Bogar
Label: Naxos

-Alto Rhapsody; Nanie, Gesand der Parzen; Schicksalslied
Orch: Atlanta Symphony
Cond; Robert Shaw
Label: Telarc

-A German Requiem
Orch: Chicago Symphony
Cond: Sir Georg Solti
Label; Universal

-Violin Concerto
Orch: Berlin Philharmonic
Cond; Daniel Barenboim
Label: EMI

-The Symphonies (3-CD set)
Orch: Berlin Philharmonic
Cond; Nikolas Harnoncourt
Label: Teldec

-The Four Symphonies (4-CD set)
Orch: Chicago Symphony
Cond; Daniel Barenboim
Label: Warner Classics

-Piano Concertos Nos. 1 & 2, Piano Quartet No. 1 (orch. Schoenberg) (2-CD set)
Orch: City of Birmingham Symphony, London Philharmonic
Cond; Yoel Levi, Kurt Sanderling, Simon Rattle
Label: Classics for Pleasure (EMI)

-Piano Concerto No. 1; Four Ballades
Orch: Royal Concertgebouw
Cond: Nikolaus Harnoncourt
Label: Apex

-Symphonies 3 & 4
Orch: Nordwestdeutsche Philharmonie
Cond; Edouard Lindenberg
Label: Apex

-The Symphonies; Haydn Variations; Ovetures; etc. (3-CD set)
Orch: London Philharmonic
Cond; Wolfgang Sawallisch
Label: EMI

-Symphony No. 1; Academic Festival Overture (DVD audio)
Orch: London Philharmonic
Cond: Marin Alsop
Label: Naxos

-Symphony NO. 2; Hungarian Dances
Orch: London Philharmonic
Cond: Marin Alsop
Label: Naxos

-Symphony 4
Orch: Vienna Philarmonic
Cond: Carlos Kleiber
Label: Decca

-Violin Concerto; Tchaikovsky: Violin Concerto
Orch: Philharmonia Orchestra of London; Pittsburgh Symphony
Cond: Anatole Fistoulari, William Steinberg
Label: EMI

-Symphony No. 3
Orch: London Philharmonic
Cond: Marin Alsop
Label: Naxos

-Serenades Nos. 1 & 2
Orch: Royal Paris Orchestral Ensemble
Cond: Sir Andrew Davis
Label: Apex

I'm really wanting to acquire this set of Piano Concertos:










But it's still too high right now.


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## BuddhaBandit (Dec 31, 2007)

That Chailly set is not bad, but there are better ones that you don't appear to own yet (Gilels or Richter, for example). I think your Brahms collection beats mine- a feat that I never thought possible.

In addition, you might want to check out a series of Naxos discs that contain Brahms' four-hand piano transcriptions of Brahms' orchestral and chamber works. They're really very interesting- here is an example.

Also, not to start a tangent, but how do you organize and store your CDs, MI? I'm always looking for better ways to keep mine.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I've heard Nelson Freire's interpretation of Brahms' _Piano Concertos _on the radio. It was stunning. Critics have raved about it, and it has received awards. So it's one of those must-haves for any 'Brahms addict.'


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## bdelykleon (May 21, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> I'm really wanting to acquire this set of Piano Concertos:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This CD was a big disappointment to me. I heard Freire playing the second concerto live twice, and once the first, and these CDs are nowhere as near the live quality, Freire is a pianist definately not suited to recordings, on a CD he is usually a little square, too stable tempi, not many inventions, but live he is a fiery and exciting pianist.

But, needless to say, I'm a big fan of Brahms, but I don't care too much about his orchestra output, the symphonies and the concertos are great, the serenates are nice, but the pinnacle of his music are his chamber music. The String quintet op.111, the clarinet quintet, the clarinet sonatas, the piano quintets, it is so overwhelmingly beautiful music, expansive, warm, superbly gifted part writing, an intelligent, new, and at the same time traditional way of writing in sonata form. Oh, what a composer is Brahms, surely in my top 5 or 6.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

BuddhaBandit said:


> That Chailly set is not bad, but there are better ones that you don't appear to own yet (Gilels or Richter, for example). I think your Brahms collection beats mine- a feat that I never thought possible.
> 
> In addition, you might want to check out a series of Naxos discs that contain Brahms' four-hand piano transcriptions of Brahms' orchestral and chamber works. They're really very interesting- here is an example.
> 
> Also, not to start a tangent, but how do you organize and store your CDs, MI? I'm always looking for better ways to keep mine.


Thanks for the recommendations, Buddha. I know the Richter and Gilels sets are highly acclaimed. I was actually looking at the Gilels set the other day. It got some very positive reviews. I will have to acquire these.

I organize my collection by composer in alphabetical order, which I'm still working on as we speak, and I store them in filing cabinets. This seems to work really well. I have them all cataloged on my computer, which is how I'm able to bring my collection so easily. I store this catalog on a simple SD card.

What about you?


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Andre said:


> Brahms is one of those composers whose melodies linger in your memory long after you've listened to it.
> 
> I don't have a great deal of Brahms, but I like his symphonies, concertos, overtures, Hungarian Dances, chamber music. I once had a cd containing one of his _Piano Trios _which I lost in a move. That was 5 years ago, but the melodies still pop up in my head. So too one of his _String Sextets_, which I had the pleasure to see performed live back in the 90's.
> 
> I also think his _Double Concerto _is a fairly underrated work, eclipsed somewhat by his other concertos. I really like how he puts in some Hungarian folklore in the last movements. & that mighty fugue at the end of _Symphony No. 4_ has to be one of the pinnacles of symphonic writing, perhaps even eclipsing what Beethoven wrote?


Indeed, Andre. Brahms was in a class by himself and not many can measure up to his greatness in terms of sheer emotional power and overall musical approach.

All of those works you mentioned are amazing and I love them all. As I mentioned earlier, I like everything he wrote. Brahms never wrote a bad piece of music in my opinion.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> Indeed, Andre. Brahms was in a class by himself and not many can measure up to his greatness in terms of sheer emotional power and overall musical approach.


More than any other composer, I get an impression of an epic battle between dark and light, especially in his symphonies and concertos. There is a tension set up, because his music is so emotional and yet stays within the conventional classical forms (eg. sonata form, fugues, counterpoint, etc). Unlike other Romantics, like primarily Liszt, he never breaks away from these forms. But his music is never rigid, he always expresses himself quite flexibly within those confines. I find his concertos in particular to be quite rhapsodic, for example, even though he doesn't break any rules. & the transition from tragedy to triumph at then end of _Symphony No. 1_ has to be one of the most memorable moments in all symphonic writing. I find his finales especially to be quite gripping...


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Andre said:


> More than any other composer, I get an impression of an epic battle between dark and light, especially in his symphonies and concertos. There is a tension set up, because his music is so emotional and yet stays within the conventional classical forms (eg. sonata form, fugues, counterpoint, etc). Unlike other Romantics, like primarily Liszt, he never breaks away from these forms. But his music is never rigid, he always expresses himself quite flexibly within those confines. I find his concertos in particular to be quite rhapsodic, for example, even though he doesn't break any rules. & the transition from tragedy to triumph at then end of _Symphony No. 1_ has to be one of the most memorable moments in all symphonic writing. I find his finales especially to be quite gripping...


Absolutely, as I mentioned in a few posts above, that emotional power you get from his compositions are unlike any other. They leave you almost breathless.

I will also say that it makes all the difference in the world when you hear a set of Brahms by a world-renowned orchestra and conductor like Solti and the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. Have you heard his set, Andre?


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

& what a pity that Brahms was extolled as a kind of reargard conservative by big fans of his like the critic Edward Hanslick. Hanslick hated the more extrovert Romantics like Wagner, Bruckner, Tchaikovsky. I think we can actually thank people like Schoenberg, who brought new critical insights into Brahms' music and, as you know, made that excellent orchestral arrangement of the _Piano Quintet_.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Andre said:


> & what a pity that Brahms was extolled as a kind of reargard conservative by big fans of his like the critic Edward Hanslick. Hanslick hated the more extrovert Romantics like Wagner, Bruckner, Tchaikovsky. I think we can actually thank people like Schoenberg, who brought new critical insights into Brahms' music and, as you know, made that excellent orchestral arrangement of the _Piano Quintet_.


That's true, I think Schoenberg's contributions to music are sometimes misguided by the historians. Yes, he innovated the 12-tone system of composition, but before this, I think he really showed remarkable musicianship.

I've said this many times, but I'll say it again. "Verklarte Nacht" is my favorite piece written for string orchestra. Absolutely brilliant piece of music that deserves to be heard by all classical fans regardless if you like Schoenberg or not.

I was actually listening to his Chamber Symphonies the other day. They aren't that bad. I guess because they weave in and out of tonality, but seem to have purpose.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> I'm really wanting to acquire this set of Piano Concertos:


You got to get this. It's brilliant recording.

I guess I love Brahms. First piano concerto is one of those pieces that I'm listening to wondering how this music can be so divine. My favourite recordings of his concertos are by Freire, Zimerman and Rubinstein. Each of them is special.

As for his symphonies, I would say that nothing beats von Karajan.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Aramis said:


> As for his symphonies, I would say that nothing beats von Karajan.


I was listening to a friend's cd of *Gunter Wand's *interpretation of _Symphony No. 1_ on the weekend, & I think he's up there with the best...


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## kg4fxg (May 24, 2009)

*Biographies*

I just finished reading two different Brahms biographies. He is fascinating but they are hard to read for me and I thought I would never get through them. Schumann is so depressing, interesting but you just have to feel sorry for him. Of course Brahms suffered too I don't know how he made it through those early years.

I noticed the other day my collection leans toward Romantic and Post-Romantic,

Thanks for starting this thread - wonderful stuff here.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

kg4fxg said:


> I just finished reading two different Brahms biographies. He is fascinating but they are hard to read for me and I thought I would never get through them. Schumann is so depressing, interesting but you just have to feel sorry for him. Of course Brahms suffered too I don't know how he made it through those early years.
> 
> I noticed the other day my collection leans toward Romantic and Post-Romantic,
> 
> Thanks for starting this thread - wonderful stuff here.


Yes, Brahms led a very interesting life. His friendship with Clara Schumann, who as you probably know, was one of the great pianists of the Romantic period, was an important influence of him.


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## BuddhaBandit (Dec 31, 2007)

Mirror Image said:


> Yes, Brahms led a very interesting life. His friendship with Clara Schumann, who as you probably know, was one of the great pianists of the Romantic period, was an important influence of him.


To say the least- just imagine one of your friends ending up in a mental hospital and the love of your life (and your crazy friend's wife) only being interested in a platonic relationship. I feel for Johannes.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

BuddhaBandit said:


> To say the least- just imagine one of your friends ending up in a mental hospital and the love of your life (and your crazy friend's wife) only being interested in a platonic relationship. I feel for Johannes.


Do you think Brahms loved Clara as more than a friend?


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## BuddhaBandit (Dec 31, 2007)

Mirror Image said:


> Do you think Brahms loved Clara as more than a friend?


I've always thought so. He never married and was basically the head of the Schumann family during Robert's illness. And Clara wasn't unattractive either. I'm no psychologist, but I think there was definitely some more-than-friendship chemistry there.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

BuddhaBandit said:


> I've always thought so. He never married and was basically the head of the Schumann family during Robert's illness. And Clara wasn't unattractive either. I'm no psychologist, but I think there was definitely some more-than-friendship chemistry there.


I think so too. We're humans after all, so I'm sure there must have been some attraction there that went beyond friendship.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> Brahms never wrote a bad piece of music in my opinion.


That's quite a statement to make of any composer. I wouldn't agree with it concerning any composer either.  But I suppose it depends how you define 'bad piece'.

It's interesting he never married (in an age when marriage was I suppose considered more normal than it is now). A link to Beethoven there, a dedication to his art perhaps. Although in awe of Beethoven he may have wrote the greatest post-Beethoven symphony (I'm talking about the 4th of course). Very much in the classical tradition. He also loved Strauss waltzes 

A link to the Dvorak thread....? Schumann helped Brahms get established? Brahms helped Dvorak.


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## Yosser (May 29, 2009)

starry said:


> That's quite a statement to make of any composer. I wouldn't agree with it concerning any composer either.  But I suppose it depends how you define 'bad piece'.


I think what is meant is that Brahms destroyed far more compositions than he ever allowed to be published or performed. He was a true perfectionist and even conspired with Clara Schumann and/or Joachim to suppress some of Robert Schumann's works (such as the violin concerto) that he did not think did justice to the composer.

I understand your equivocation, but I do think Brahms did his very best to suppress anything that he considered below his standard of 'best work'. He may not always have succeeded, but he surely did try.

Personally, I think his is a remarkable example which other less self-critical composers could well have applied (or apply) to their own music.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Yosser said:


> I think what is meant is that Brahms destroyed far more compositions than he ever allowed to be published or performed. He was a true perfectionist and even conspired with Clara Schumann and/or Joachim to suppress some of Robert Schumann's works (such as the violin concerto) that he did not think did justice to the composer.
> 
> I understand your equivocation, but I do think Brahms did his very best to suppress anything that he considered below his standard of 'best work'. He may not always have succeeded, but he surely did try.
> 
> Personally, I think his is a remarkable example which other less self-critical composers could well have applied (or apply) to their own music.


But earlier composers didn't have much choice, they had to compose alot to survive. Brahms was lucky in that sense. But then again maybe the need to compose on order and produce a large body of work helped these earlier composers explore and develop some of main genres of this whole style. What they were leaving to posterity didn't weigh heavily on their minds.


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## kg4fxg (May 24, 2009)

*Brahms Sex Abuse*

One thing you read about is the sexual abuse he suffered as a young boy.

"Johannes Brahms-(1833-1897), famous German composer, sexually abused by prostitutes in a bar, which his parents used as his "child care" facility. He performed piano in the bar and was molested there in a years-long pattern of abuse. Late in life he confessed his inability to relate to women or to perform sexually. In the book THE UNKNOWN BRAHMS, he suggested that his general hostility towards women (he had very few female friends and never married, though he was evidently heterosexual) was from the abuse he endured from women when he was a child."

http://www.aest.org.uk/survivors/famous.htm

From my reading books I have learned that the prostitutes would pass him around and ********** him in the bar. PLease excuse me for being so frank.

The only women I believe he loved and had any respect for was Clara.

For me I can empathize or appreciate the composer better having read these biographies. Please don't misunderstand me, I don't appreciate or understand the music better than you, it just adds more of a reverence for me.

Understanding the composer's background I am careful and more apt not to be so judgmental. If I were in his shoes I am certain I would not have amounted to anything.


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## andruini (Apr 14, 2009)

Has anyone else heard the Zubin Mehta/NYPhil. recordings of the symphonies?? My dad has them on LP and I don't think they've been re-issued, but they are, in my opinion, really up there with the Solti recordings, which I agree are the probable best.. 
I really love all of Brahms, but there's nothing much I can say which hasn't been said before..


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

kg4fxg said:


> One thing you read about is the sexual abuse he suffered as a young boy...In the book THE UNKNOWN BRAHMS, he suggested that his general hostility towards women (he had very few female friends and never married, though he was evidently heterosexual) was from the abuse he endured from women when he was a child."


I agree that those early experiences must have made him develop a rather jaundiced view of women. He was a bachelor for all of his life, but this was the case with quite a few composers, like Bruckner, Ravel, Gershwin, etc. I suppose music, like any art, can consume & occupy ones whole life, for better or worse...


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Andre said:


> I agree that those early experiences must have made him develop a rather jaundiced view of women. He was a bachelor for all of his life, but this was the case with quite a few composers, like Bruckner, Ravel, Gershwin, etc. I suppose music, like any art, can consume & occupy ones whole life, for better or worse...


Ravel was alone by choice. He once said that "Music was his only love." I think many of these composers don't get married because they know they're lifestyles won't permit it, so why be a burden to someone else?

There have been cases where this wasn't an issue like Vaughan Williams or Mendelssohn, for example, but I think many composer's found it hard to have two active lives.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

kg4fxg said:


> From my reading books I have learned that the prostitutes would pass him around and ********** him in the bar.


Some composers have all the fun.


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## Yosser (May 29, 2009)

starry said:


> But earlier composers didn't have much choice, they had to compose a lot to survive. Brahms was lucky in that sense.


Not quite sure what you mean by 'lucky'. He supported himself financially by giving concerts and, if one will, odd-jobbing in musical circles until he was 42, one year before his first symphony was completed. This in spite of early recommendations from Joachim and Schumann. He could surely have made life a bit easier for himself financially by knocking off a few crowd pleasers. On the other hand, maybe the association with Schumann and the famous 'New Paths' article in the Neue Zeitschrift removed this option.

Whichever way you view his path in life, 'lucky' is not a word that naturally springs to mind.


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## Yosser (May 29, 2009)

kg4fxg said:


> One thing you read about is the sexual abuse he suffered as a young boy.
> 
> "Johannes Brahms-(1833-1897), famous German composer, sexually abused by prostitutes in a bar, which his parents used as his "child care" facility. He performed piano in the bar and was molested there in a years-long pattern of abuse. Late in life he confessed his inability to relate to women or to perform sexually. In the book THE UNKNOWN BRAHMS, he suggested that his general hostility towards women (he had very few female friends and never married, though he was evidently heterosexual) was from the abuse he endured from women when he was a child."
> 
> ...


I believe one should be very careful with this story. The only conceivable source is Brahms himself, and, as a typical Nord-Deutsche he was perfectly capable of spinning a yarn with a straight face.

The site you quote refers to Brahms as a famous abusee in the context of 'What happened to you happened to famous people who somehow dealt with it and moved on to perform great things'. I'm surely sympathetic to any and all attempts to help abusees deal with whatever problems the abuse has left them with.

However, I think one should be aware that there are strong reasons for believing this particular story to be entirely apocryphal, invented by Brahms, for whatever reason. Maybe some journalistic person was getting up his nose and he decided to take them 'auf den Arm'. Here is a a URL to a site that supports this view.

http://sobs.org/chilocal/kameczura/styraavins/robkamavinshome.html

Brahms had relationships of one sort or another with several women. His relationship with Clara was much more complex than a 'male-female' attraction, though this was surely one aspect of it. If you think of the circumstances -- Brahms helping Clara out with her houseful of kids, paying the bills etc. while Robert was throwing himself in the Rhein, then exhibiting the symptoms of tertiary syphilis, which in those times implied merely 'madness' and social ostracism -- it's hard to think of many parallel relationships, or even any. Bear in mind also, that both Brahms and Clara were amongst the eminent virtuosos of their day. Clara may have borne 8 children, but her primary emotional involvement in life would nevertheless appear to have been music. (If not so, why, after the pain and disaster of her final years with the 'ultimate artist', Robert, would she seek help from another 'ultimate artist' and not someone safe like, say, an insurance salesman!)

I believe that today, in particular, we are not able to understand the complexities of this relationship and there is a tendency to force it into something that we (think we) do understand. We should try to resist his tendency.

There is nothing whatsoever odd about a heterosexual composer being unable to find a wife. The life of a virtuoso/composer in the time of Brahms offered no security whatsoever and any wife who would have taken him as a husband would have had to accept that any passion he may feel for her paled in comparison with the passion he felt for his art. Not an awfully promising proposition!


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