# What do you think about folk music?



## PresenTense (May 7, 2016)

You know, the great dudes from that world: Nick Drake, Leonard Cohen, Bob Dylan, etc, etc...


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

Or Pete Seeger, Leadbelly, Woody Guthrie. Not to mention the English like the Copper Family or Martin Carthy or the Watersons. Or the Scots like Dick Gaughan or Aly Bain.

My own taste in folk is for roots not the modern singer-songwriters. I don't mind a bit of rock like Steeleye Span or Fairport Convention or Five Hand Reel.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

My iPod carries extensive collections of the songs of Peter, Paul, and Mary, and also of Ian & Sylvia. Timeless music.


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## Keef (Jun 30, 2016)

I read _Electric Eden_ recently which is a window into the world of new folk and the folk revival (and was also a catalyst for my new interest into medieval music, particularly the works of David Munrow).

New discoveries for me were The Trees _On The Shore_, Third ear Band and John Renbourne's solo works.

I love Nick Drake's albums, most of the work of Leonard Cohen and I think Dylan is one of the abiding geniuses of popular music, although it's probably his less-folkish stuff I admire most - the Judas phase after he plugged in his guitar. I also have a lot of time for Paul Simon.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I don't associate folk music with acoustic or electric instruments. Dylan is a contemporary artist no matter the instrumentation. I'm with Taggart, in that it's the material that defines the idiom. I would say a guitarist such as Martin Simpson is a folk musician, but Richard Thompson is not, even though his music is heavily informed by the folk tradition, and he possesses a vast knowledge of Brirish folk music.

But I love acoustic guitar, so I listen to Bert Jansch, John Renbourn, Bruce Cockburn, Leo Kottke, Doc Watson, Geoff Muldaur, Norman Blake, Tony Rice, Harvey Reid, Pierre Bensusan, and many others.


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

I think folk is as diverse as rock, but isn't appreciated as such by most people.


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## Lyricus (Dec 11, 2015)

I've always had a soft spot for Burl Ives. Yippie yi ay, yippee yi yo!


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## Marinera (May 13, 2016)

Leonard Cohen - folk genre, is it a mistake?.. but I like his music whatever genre it belongs to. Nick Drake and Jackson C Frank - both great, my favourites, but not so B.Dylan. His singing is not my thing, though I like his songs when sung by others.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Marinera said:


> Not so B.Dylan. His singing is not my thing, though I like his songs when sung by others.


Dylan, over the years and the decades, grows on a listener--this listener anyway--and is the prime example of songwriting genius combining with a strange personal magnetism so as to render irrelevant the quality of his voice. Dylan occupies his own unique category.


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## Casebearer (Jan 19, 2016)

Folk music to me is where all these guys and galls drew their inspiration from but so far this thread is quite oriented to folk music in the Anglosaxon tradition. Nice as the Anglosaxon folk roots may be, I find I'm inspired even more by Hungarian and Balkan folk music (Albania, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Rumania). To me that is where the essence of music is to be found maybe because it's the primary place where East met West and music becomes especially interesting. Andalusian flamenco is another example of this interesting meeting. And of course it's also my opinion because of my lack of knowledge of other cultures.


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## Marinera (May 13, 2016)

> Dylan, over the years and the decades, grows on a listener--this listener anyway--and is the prime example of songwriting genius combining with a strange personal magnetism so as to render irrelevant the quality of his voice. Dylan occupies his own unique category.


This plan requires sustained and dedicated effort of listening..and you said so yourself, this can take years. It would be another matter if I were exposed to his music on a regular basis, but because I'm not, I just leave it as it is. But yes, he's in the category of his own, which means the quality of his music is well beyond categorizing, one might like or dislike his singing, but it does not detract from the value of his musicmaking overall.


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## Marinera (May 13, 2016)

Casebearer said:


> Folk music to me is where all these guys and galls drew their inspiration from but so far this thread is quite oriented to folk music in the Anglosaxon tradition. Nice as the Anglosaxon folk roots may be, I find I'm inspired even more by Hungarian and Balkan folk music (Albania, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Rumania). To me that is where the essence of music is to be found maybe because it's the primary place where East met West and music becomes especially interesting. Andalusian flamenco is another example of this interesting meeting. And of course it's also my opinion because of my lack of knowledge of other cultures.


Haven't thought about that. Savall has some records with folk music examples I think. Mare nostrum comes to mind, which has folk songs from various Mediterranean regions.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

I love folk music, but I am a bit of an antiquarian about it. I don't consider Bob Dylan or Leonard Cohen to be real folk singers, though I love the early Bob Dylan particularly for his poetic lyrics. I also like rock & electronic folk because Steeleye Span flourished in my heyday.

But I love delving into the origins of folk song - I did an MA thesis on the traditional ballads - and I love early music and eighteenth century Scottish fiddle music. I am learning folk fiddle - Irish, Scottish and English - and I like the older tunes and 'Pure Drop' style of playing. The cool jazzy tone that my fiddle teacher injects into Irish reels is ever so slightly anathema to me! 

I love the American sounds too - Appalachian folk songs, blue grass, Woody Guthrie, banjos etc - but I don't know enough to separate the different styles. 

So broadly speaking - yes, I like folk music.


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

Marinera said:


> Haven't thought about that. Savall has some records with folk music examples I think. Mare nostrum comes to mind, which has folk songs from various Mediterranean regions.


Not to mention his Celtic Viols set.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Folk music is one musical direction I would like to explore deeper some day. But I am in the camp of those who understand the old, traditional European tunes as folk music, not modern songwriters.


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## Wood (Feb 21, 2013)

Life is too short to hear all the worthwhile folk music from around the world, though it is worth going as far as one reasonably can.

I have heard and enjoy many of the artists listed above. Of those not mentioned, here are some great female singers:

Jacqui McShee (w. Pentangle)






Zarsanga (Pushtu):






Shirley Collins (Sussex):






Suwa Devi (Rajasthan):






It would be an outrage to not post something by John Martyn when the opportunity presents itself:






Your thesis must have been fascinating Ingelou, though I hope the source material didn't shock you too often. 

Not my favourite, but Walter Pardon was the first traditional singer I heard, on Folk on 2 around 1979, and I was hooked from there.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Wood said:


> Your thesis must have been fascinating Ingelou, though I hope the source material didn't shock you too often. ...


Of course not - I'm a Woman of the World.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Most of you folks aren't talking about folk music. If it has a known writer/composer, it ain't.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Ukko said:


> Most of you folks aren't talking about folk music. If it has a known writer/composer, it ain't.


Generally, I agree - the problem is when you get a composer 'in the folk tradition', like the Scottish fiddler Niel Gow. Not only did he compose and print new tunes in the folk tradition, but he also re-issued and arranged existing traditional tunes - and often, scholars don't quite know where the dividing line comes.

The anonymous folk tunes were made up by *somebody* - if a new document turned up to identify the author of a folk melody, would we have to recategorise it as art music? I don't think so.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Ingélou said:


> Generally, I agree - the problem is when you get a composer 'in the folk tradition', like the Scottish fiddler Niel Gow. Not only did he compose and print new tunes in the folk tradition, but he also re-issued and arranged existing traditional tunes - and often, scholars don't quite know where the dividing line comes.
> 
> The anonymous folk tunes were made up by *somebody* - if a new document turned up to identify the author of a folk melody, would we have to recategorise it as art music? I don't think so.


The only Scottish folk music I know is Robin Williamson's. He's a massively talented composer/musician/poet-some of these 'folk' guys do it all. His music has been well documented by ECM.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Morimur said:


> The only Scottish folk music I know is Robin Williamson's. He's a massively talented composer/musician/poet-some of these 'folk' guys do it all. His music has been well documented by ECM.


 Oops - I had to google him, though I'd heard of The Incredible String Band. He seems to be very talented but perhaps even more antiquarian in his approach than I am!

When you have to 'rediscover' folk material & 'introduce it' to today's audience, it means it isn't really *all that* 'folk'. Paradoxically, Cape Breton has more traditional Scottish music than Scotland in the 21st century because it has an unbroken tradition and hasn't had to rely on revivalists.

I'll look into him. :tiphat:


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## acitak 7 (Jun 26, 2016)

I like northern lights by Renaissance great song, vocals by annie haslam a folk song that made the uk charts in 1978 she looked great as well


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## Lyricus (Dec 11, 2015)

Ingélou said:


> I love folk music, but I am a bit of an antiquarian about it. I don't consider Bob Dylan or Leonard Cohen to be real folk singers, though I love the early Bob Dylan particularly for his poetic lyrics. I also like rock & electronic folk because Steeleye Span flourished in my heyday.
> 
> But I love delving into the origins of folk song - I did an MA thesis on the traditional ballads - and I love early music and eighteenth century Scottish fiddle music. I am learning folk fiddle - Irish, Scottish and English - and I like the older tunes and 'Pure Drop' style of playing. The cool jazzy tone that my fiddle teacher injects into Irish reels is ever so slightly anathema to me!
> 
> ...


Do you have any specific album recommendations?


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

Big Folkie here. Irish Scottish and Americana ect. Folk rock and Prog folk too. I have had a couple of folk bands mesel, performing original music.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Doc Watson pretty much covered this one verbatim.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Badinerie said:


> Big Folkie here. Irish Scottish and Americana ect. Folk rock and Prog folk too. I have had a couple of folk bands mesel, performing original music.


Can me & Taggart join your band?


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Lyricus said:


> Do you have any specific album recommendations?


It depends what you like. 
For Scottish fiddle, The Driven Bow by Alistair Fraser and Jody Stecher is a fabulous cd. I am working through a book by Alistair's brother Iain Fraser - Scottish Fiddle Tunes (60 Traditional Pieces for Violin) - and it has an accompanying cd which is good to listen to as well as learn from. Iain Fraser has quite a lot of the slow airs on YouTube - this is one of my favourites:






For Irish fiddle, my absolute favourite man, the late Martin Byrnes, no longer has cds available.
However, he features on a cd we have just bought, a pub session in London in the 1960s called Paddy in the Smoke. This has a lot of chatting etc in the background but is still very exhilarating.

One classic cd that we own is Kevin Burke, If the Cap Fits, made in the 70s, I believe. And we also love The Green Linnet by Martin Hayes. We got a second hand cd called Newtown Bridge by the Irish fiddler Eileen O'Brien - she also sings; it's out of print now but she has produced other cds and we really rate her.

Folk Songs - most of the stuff we have is on vinyl & we bought it in the 1970s. We like Steeleye Span, especially their earlier stuff, but that is electronic folk. We have the Irish group Planxty, the Irish/Scottish group Boys of the Lough, and English folk singing groups The Watersons and The Young Tradition & also the High Level Ranters - I couldn't tell you how much of their stuff is still available, though. Martin Carthy is another favourite, but try his earlier stuff - he is still singing in his seventies but his voice has gone to seed!

We don't have a lot of American folk stuff - the collected Woody Guthrie & also a great cd called 'Essential Bluegrass Anthology'.

Taggart can give you more details as if I see anything I like, he just goes ahead and orders it!

Or I would just go on to YouTube and see what you like.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Ukko said:


> Most of you folks aren't talking about folk music. If it has a known writer/composer, it ain't.


it seems a strange definition to me... so if someone after a long time discover who's the writer of a tune that tune isn't anymore folk music?
And how would you call this for instance?


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I guess I'm the lone contrarian. I think it's okay, but I don't go out of my way to hear it. Unless it's mariachi. Is that considered folk music?


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

nb: so if someone after a long time discover who's the writer of a tune...

Ain't gonna happen if it's _folk_ music. Reason it's _folk_ music is because its origin is buried in the fm tradition. If it has a definite composer, say Joe Doaks, it's Joe Doak's music, doesn't matter if he's good folks.


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## Casebearer (Jan 19, 2016)

Marinera said:


> Haven't thought about that. Savall has some records with folk music examples I think. Mare nostrum comes to mind, which has folk songs from various Mediterranean regions.


Didn't know about Mare Nostrum but looked it up immediately. Now that's something I like!

Dialogo tra musiche ottomane, arabo-andaluse, sefardite e armene del bacino mediterraneo

Lior Elmaleh e Irini Derebei, canto
Hesperion XXI
Jordi Savall, rebec, lira d'arco & direzione

Sabato 1 giugno 2013 - ore 21.00
Scuola Grande di San Giovanni Evangelista
Venezia


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## Casebearer (Jan 19, 2016)

I hope you're interested in Albanian folk music. Some of it seems to go back to the times of Homer. It also has been very isolated for a long time. Although now tradition is dying even over there and many young people are fleeing their country.

First I have three short documentaries on Albanian iso-polyphony. In the next post I have some examples of Albanian folk music.


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## Casebearer (Jan 19, 2016)

Some examples of Albanian folk music


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Ukko said:


> nb: so if someone after a long time discover who's the writer of a tune...
> 
> Ain't gonna happen if it's _folk_ music. Reason it's _folk_ music is because its origin is buried in the fm tradition. If it has a definite composer, say Joe Doaks, it's Joe Doak's music, doesn't matter if he's good folks.


So at first when one composes one song that song isn't folk, than when it's forgotten it becames it?
Genres are made only as an help for listeners, to say that Joe Doak makes Joa Doak's music, and Atahualpa Yupanqui makes Atahualpa Yupanqui's music and Nick Drake makes Nick Drake's music does not have more sense than saying that Mozart isn't classical because he made Mozart's music.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Ukko said:


> nb: so if someone after a long time discover who's the writer of a tune...
> 
> Ain't gonna happen if it's _folk_ music. Reason it's _folk_ music is because its origin is buried in the fm tradition. If it has a definite composer, say Joe Doaks, it's Joe Doak's music, doesn't matter if he's good folks.


In the early twentieth century ballad scholars like Kittredge thought that old folk songs and tunes were spontaneously generated by 'the singing dancing throng'. He was dealing mainly with English & Scottish songs that had also spread to America, as am I, but his ideas were influential and were part of the romanticisation of the folk that took place in the 1920s and 1930s world-wide.

But actually folk tunes and songs are made up by individuals, and old records like the accounts for the monastery at Durham show that there were professional harpers etc that could be hired for Christmas parties. Their tunes would have seeped into the tradition - been changed and rearranged according to the player or singer - and become 'folk'. Folk music is often anonymous because we don't know who originated it or made up a new version, but that is not part of the definition of folk.

There were also professionals who sang and chanted - sometimes their ballads are bastardised versions of courtly romances. An example is *Thomas the Rhymer*, the Child ballad, which has a medieval romance counterpart. Once the ballad has got into the community and been altered, it becomes 'folk'.

We have documents like the Percy Manuscript and old chapbooks to go on once we reach the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. Versions of traditional songs and ballads can be traced to particular localities and sometimes they originate in printed broadsides which were hawked and sung at fairs or sold by pedlars. Hack poets made up the lyrics to earn their bread and butter, and they would suggest well-known tunes for them to be sung to. Again, pretty far from the mystical idea of 'the singing dancing throng'.

In the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries Irish, Scottish and English working people emigrated, for example to the USA, and brought their songs and tunes with them, where further evolution took place within the oral tradition. In the early twentieth century, along came Cecil Sharp and Maud Karpeles and collected samples from the Appalachians.

Folk music is music 'of the people' which is played in the countryside or urban districts* by ordinary working people and transmitted generally but not always by ear. It is changed as part of oral tradition, and anyone who is part of the tradition is at liberty to add his new version, as Robert Burns did, for example, for *Tam Lin*.

Folk music is not spontaneously generated by ring-dancing peasants; it originates from individuals. There were many talented musicians and singers in the rural communities and they had to make their own entertainment; people would get a reputation for skill or be known for a particular song or tune; mostly their names would be forgotten, but not always.

'Folk' music is simply music of the people as opposed to 'Art' music which is music enjoyed by the upper classes or courtly musicians or people of refined taste.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
_*An example of an urban 'folk' environment would be the poor Irish districts of Chicago where Francis O'Neill, an Irish-born US police officer, collected his Irish jigs & reels in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. _


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Well never mind then. You two are sluffin' over the facts to arrive at your conclusions. Ingelou, while presenting your argument you have validated mine.

[Whatever gave you the idea that I said folk music does not have a singular origin? My origin was a fertilized egg; that fact does not define "the entity known as Ukko".]


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Ukko said:


> Well never mind then. You two are sluffin' over the facts to arrive at your conclusions. Ingelou, while presenting your argument you have validated mine.
> 
> [Whatever gave you the idea that I said folk music does not have a singular origin? My origin was a fertilized egg; that fact does not define "the entity known as Ukko".]


You're right - you didn't say that folk music doesn't have a singular origin, and I didn't think that you did. However, you do seem to say that if you know or later find out the name of a folk tune's maker, it means that the tune isn't a folk tune.

Apologies if in fact you were not saying that. :tiphat:

I was trying to write about ways of interpreting folk music. In the earlier twentieth century scholars like George Kittredge also thought that having a known author invalidated a tune being 'folk music'. *Their* reason was because they believed that songs resulted from 'the singing dancing throng', _viz._ spontaneous contributions by different community members during communal dances.

You haven't told me what *your* reason is for thinking that folk music *must* be anonymous, so in my post I didn't link you with Kittredge's view.

But the tide *has* turned as regards the importance of anonymity. Modern scholars give much more credit to folk musicians as skilled people consciously moulding or adding to the tradition.

So - what makes folk music 'folk'? In my view, there are two things to take into consideration.

1. It originates in the folk tradition - in a community of 'ordinary people', usually a rural community - and it is passed on down the generations, usually by oral transmission, although in Britain, Ireland and America, cheap printed sources have also been part of the tradition for at least 300 years.

and/or

2. The tune has a 'folk style' - folk dancing or folk songs can be performed using it - and the person who made it is either part of a folk community or has studied to acquire the language. This second concept is obviously more contentious.

*However, anonymity is not a logical requirement for either of these definitions.*

To sum up, I *agree* with you that most folk music *is,* _as it happens,_ anonymous and that its origins are *usually* lost in the mists of time - but I don't think this is *a requirement* for something to qualify as folk music.

Oh and by the way, all my facts are facts - I haven't *sluffed* them (whatever that means! ).


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

I accept your apology.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Ingélou said:


> Folk music is not spontaneously generated by ring-dancing peasants; it originates from individuals. There were many talented musicians and singers in the rural communities and they had to make their own entertainment; people would get a reputation for skill or be known for a particular song or tune; mostly their names would be forgotten, but not always.
> 
> 'Folk' music is simply music of the people as opposed to 'Art' music which is music enjoyed by the upper classes or courtly musicians or people of refined taste.


Traditional cante flamenco holds an ambiguous and intermediate position between being "folk" and paid professional "art" song. The origins of flamenco--even of the name--have been debated for at least a century. We know that a portion of the Andalusian lower classes, peasantry, miners, agricultural workers, urban laborers and the large Gypsy community enjoyed flamenco, and that its artists arose from their ranks and performed for one another's benefit. But we also know that the exoticism of flamenco sparked an early interest in it among knowledgeable and adventurous outsiders (Chabrier, John Singer Sargent), putting it onstage as paid entertainment during the Café Cantante era, roughly 1860-1910. Also from an early date, wealthy Spanish aficionados, the _señoritos_, became knowing patrons and supporters of flamenco performance, on a strictly "for hire" basis. In this sense, cante flamenco was akin to other nationalities' Gypsy ensembles wherein what began as an indigenous yet complex folk or quasi folk music, evolved into a hybrid form of entertainment where both lower and upper classes became eager connoisseurs of the art.


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## Casebearer (Jan 19, 2016)

In the same way the traditional Hungarian folklore (partly Gypsy) music was developed into an art form to entertain the bourgeoisie during the Habsburg reign (and continuing till today). This is the annoying form of (Gypsy) folklore music where they come to play at your dinner table and you can request one of the mostly very sentimental romantic "Gypsy" songs that form part of the restaurant repertoire. The picture is completed by the lady that also visits your table, selling red roses to give to the romantic love you're supposed to be dining with.


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

Ingélou said:


> Can me & Taggart join your band?


Why Aye man!...


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

I think if you listen to some of the better folk music like Nick Drake and Joni Mitchell (I realize she did other music styles too), you can see that folk opens itself up to as much complexity and experimentation as rock. I am not sure if there are progressive forms in folk that are elaborate as some of those found in progressive rock, but the harmony and rhythm is often as experimental.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I don't consider Joni Mitchell a folk artist. I do love her music. Never could get into Nick Drake. I don't care for his foggy vocals, and his songs sound so melancholy.


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

starthrower said:


> I don't consider Joni Mitchell a folk artist. I do love her music. Never could get into Nick Drake. I don't care for his foggy vocals, and his songs sound so melancholy.


I never found Joy Division to be depressing when I used to like them, I guess I feel the same way about Nick Drake. I could see into his problem pretty clearly though -- he had this fatal obsession with a dangerous side of beauty....not sure that's what killed him as the anti-depressants he was taking were deadly and I heard one could overdose if one forgot they had already taken their daily dose.


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## Antiquarian (Apr 29, 2014)

Ingélou said:


> I love folk music, but I am a bit of an antiquarian about it.


Me too!

(Sorry, just had to do this:lol


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## Casebearer (Jan 19, 2016)

regenmusic said:


> I never found Joy Division to be depressing when I used to like them, I guess I feel the same way about Nick Drake. I could see into his problem pretty clearly though -- he had this fatal obsession with a dangerous side of beauty....not sure that's what killed him as the anti-depressants he was taking were deadly and I heard one could overdose if one forgot they had already taken their daily dose.


I agree. I've always found so called depressing music to be quite uplifting and making life worthwhile. The opposite is also true with me.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

A great folk album:









Disk 1 of this set is excellent folk music:

















This very good too:


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

I *love* Joni Mitchell, and in the sixties & seventies she was certainly grouped with 'folk singers' like Bob Dylan, Donovan and Judy Collins. 
However, that was just the terminology of the time - *acoustic *would have been more accurate. I think also it was because they wrote their own material and sometimes did sing actual folk songs.

Still, life's too short for quibbling! - I like 'modern folk' music and I like 'progressive folk' music and I like 'real folk' music. 

*'Orthodoxy is my doxy - heterodoxy is another man's doxy.' *
But they're a' gude doxies! :lol:


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## cwarchc (Apr 28, 2012)

Folk music is one of my passions
I love the colloquial songs from the different areas.
My own area, Lancashire in the north west of england, has a proud "working class" heritage


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## cwarchc (Apr 28, 2012)

Most of the recorded material has been toned down from "true" dialect
I've lived in this place most of my life and if it was in proper dialect, I would struggle to follow some of it
I used to love going to my uncle's pub and listen to the old guys chatting


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## ST4 (Oct 27, 2016)

I love it I really do!


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