# Live recordings. Cough and applause. Can you stand them?



## Skakner (Oct 8, 2020)

What's your opinion?
*Is coughing and/or applause, deal breaker for an otherwise excellent live recording?*
For me, absolutely. I just can't tolerate both.
I don't own many live recordings just for these two reasons. The moment I detect either of them, the recording will go on the shelve for ever. I will never listen to it again. Thankfully, there are too many choices for good recordings.
In the Concert halls there is no alternative but in my private listening, when I am in my favorite composer's musical universe, there is no need to suffer the "noise pollution"...

Glenn Gould's humming is something different...


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

I agree with John Cage, coughing is good.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

SanAntone said:


> I agree with John Cage, coughing is good.


If it is a concert of works by Cage, the more coughing, probably the better.

In other contexts, I prefer there not to be coughing. I don't mind applause at the end, especially if there is a slight pause after the music ends. If there is such noise over the music, especially in quiet parts, that can be a real annoyance, although not necessarily a deal breaker if there are sufficient reasons to value the recording.

Edit: In our current crisis, it is interesting that coughing has taken on a very different aspect. When I was in the pharmacy waiting to get my flu shot a few months ago, one woman began a bit of a coughing fit, and everyone started to look at her as if there was blood gushing out of an artery. Fortunately, she was fine, and had just accidentally swallowed her breath mint.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

SanAntone said:


> I agree with John Cage, coughing is good.


It's not good in late Feldman. This I know from experience, and it makes me almost want to say that the music is better on a studio recording than in a concert, where there are just too many distractions of the coughing variety.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Serious answer: I don't mind coughing, shuffling of feet, clapping, humming, wrong notes, or any extraneous sound during a live performance or recording of a recital/concert. My attitude is life is messy and I am not interested in the pursuit of perfection.

I prefer live recordings to studio ones.


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## Helgi (Dec 27, 2019)

I've come to accept it, although sometimes it's just ridiculous. I'm thinking of old Sviatoslav Richter recordings from Russia and Czechoslovakia where I'm guessing 90% of the adult population were heavy smokers.

Can't remember which recording it was that I heard, with either Richter or Gilels, where the coughing was so much in the foreground of the recording that the piano playing was like an extraneous background noise.


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

I think its kinda cool, gives it a natural feel if it is moderate..The cell phone ringing is wholly another matter tho...


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## Guest (Nov 19, 2020)

I heard an anecdote about Arthur Rubinstein. He said in most places of the world people with a cough and a cold went to a doctor but wherever he was playing they'd come instead to his concerts!!


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

SanAntone said:


> Serious answer: I don't mind coughing, shuffling of feet, clapping, humming, wrong notes, or any extraneous sound during a live performance or recording of a recital/concert. My attitude is life is messy and I am not interested in the pursuit of perfection.
> 
> I prefer live recordings to studio ones.


It's quite a big issue, not what you prefer, but the relative merits of live versus studio. But in a smaller way, I just find long form Feldman hard at the best of times, but harder when there's someone next to me scrunching on some mint imperials, someone in front of me texting her friends and someone behind me rummaging in her handbag.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

The most notorious example is during the Schreier / Richter live from Dresden. Half the audience appear to be in advanced stages of bronchitis!


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Christabel said:


> I heard an anecdote about Arthur Rubinstein. He said in most places of the world people with a cough and a cold went to a doctor but wherever he was playing they'd come instead to his concerts!!


Take two Rubinstein concerts, and call me in the morning if you aren't better.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

Probably, the most interesting recording of Brahms' _Piano Concerto #1_ that I have ever heard is the infamous live recording that features Glenn Gould and Leonard Bernstein from about 1965, where Bernstein addressed the audience first and stated that even though he disagreed with Gould's dynamics and tempos, that he was conducting it that way anyway, on account of the respect he had for Gould's integrity as a musician. Interestingly, Bernstein himself would be criticized by others for the liberties he took with dynamics and tempos in his later career during the 1980s (most notably his DG recording of Tchaikovsky's _6th_).

Anyway, as great as the Gould/Bernstein recording of Brahms' _PC#1_ is, the slow movement is practically unlistenable due to the noise you hear from the audience; it's just a series of coughs, sniffles, and sneezes.

Especially in these days of social distancing, I feel like I have to wear a mask just to listen to it, let alone enjoy it.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

The worst I ever experienced was at Covent Garden, Boris Godunov. The end, the Tarkowsky production, I think John Tomlinson singing Boris, it was unbelievably good, and he was in his final, tragic aria, the audience was rapt, it was as if he was singing just for me, I was thinking that this is the best way to spend your life, there is nothing better to do than go to the opera. I will no nothing else with my life than go to opera. 

And then someone’s mobile phone goes off in the row behind me.

And then there was another deeply embarrassing time at Covent Garden, a mediocre performance of something by Verdi, I forget what. I had a cold, it seemed to be getting better. But in the first half I couldn’t stop myself coughing for a short time, or so it appeared to me. In the interval all was OK but as I arrived at my seat I heard someone say, “Look, here comes Mr Cough.”

I wanted to die.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

The most notorious example on my shelves is during the Schreier / Richter live from Dresden. Half the audience appear to be in advanced stages of bronchitis! 
Of course there is the case of Jon Vickers who broke off his Tristan monologue to tell an audience member: “Stop your damn coughing!”


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Handelian said:


> The most notorious example on my shelves is during the Schreier / Richter live from Dresden. Half the audience appear to be in advanced stages of bronchitis!
> Of course there is the case of Jon Vickers who broke off his Tristan monologue to tell an audience member: "Stop your damn coughing!"


I thought he said to the audience in Texas "Stop rattling your damn jewlery!"


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> I thought he said to the audience in Texas "Stop rattling your damn jewlery!"


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## Helgi (Dec 27, 2019)

Telling people _please don't cough or make noise because we're recording this_ will prompt a coughing fit like nothing else. You can bet that many of the worst offenders went home from the concert and didn't cough once for the rest of the evening.

It's like kiddy fiddling in the Catholic church.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Helgi said:


> Telling people _please don't cough or make noise because we're recording this_ will prompt a coughing fit like nothing else. You can bet that many of the worst offenders went home from the concert and didn't cough once for the rest of the evening.
> 
> It's like kiddy fiddling in the Catholic church.


Whatever you do, don't scratch your nose . . . you scratched your nose didn't you? (I know I did)


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## Ich muss Caligari werden (Jul 15, 2020)

It does seem to me that if one is listening to a recording and the coughing is troubling to them, it's likely that insufficient _Aufmerksamkeit_ is being paid to the music (assuming coughing is not excessive, of course). Many CM listeners' pursuit of purity and perfection makes them unwitting targets of humor; best to avoid this - we're humans and prone to defects and faults of many persuasions, including being obsessed with CM.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

Coughing and creaking chairs during the performance is extremely annoying, I have some live recordings, only one of them has coughing, I actually discarded the recording, leaving the booklet because they are quite beautiful. Applause and even some whistlings at the end of performance exhilarate me, I actually like it.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> It's quite a big issue, not what you prefer, but the relative merits of live versus studio. But in a smaller way, I just find long form Feldman hard at the best of times, but harder when there's someone next to me scrunching on some mint imperials, someone in front of me texting her friends and someone behind me rummaging in her handbag.


There is no question in my mind that the best performances are the result of the interaction between a performer and the audience, coughs and all.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

As long as it's not excessive, I can tolerate it. There are some studio recordings where players try to stifle coughs, that's ok too. The extraneous noises in some older recordings is quite amusing. They would be covered up on LPs with surface noise and such, but CDs just make it all so clear.

Applause is another problem: sometimes it's so loud that it's jarring and annoying. I prefer it to be left out. But I have a concert recording of Glazunov's ballet Raymonda where the audience claps at times and somehow it's ok - adds to the sense of joy.

I will never understand why anyone who is ill would go to a concert and spread their disease. Flu, cold, now Coronavirus. And these people who cough all the time? Quit smoking. Drink plenty of fluids. Take care of yourself, but quit exposing the rest of us to your rude behavior.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Sometimes a live recording is so good and unique as to make listening to it unavoidable. Richter's Sofia "Pictures" is one such.
o
(Beecham, whose acerbicism was justly legendary, suggested that people who coughed during concerts should be treated with the gentle application of a warm steam roller to their throats.


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## Ich muss Caligari werden (Jul 15, 2020)

My wife and I, too, knew a 'cougher' : a large rotund gentleman who sat front row and center at our local cinema (how he managed to squeeze himself into those narrow seats is another mystery). His hacking would not begin until the curtain raised. Never, ever, heard him cough as he was exiting the theater...


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Handelian said:


>


Very good. Act 3 of Tristan, he's on his back singing quietly, I don't blame him for losing his rag. Thanks for that, I didn't know it existed.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> It's quite a big issue, not what you prefer, but the relative merits of live versus studio. But in a smaller way, I just find long form Feldman hard at the best of times, but harder when there's someone next to me scrunching on some mint imperials, someone in front of me texting her friends and someone behind me rummaging in her handbag.


Feldman knew the world he was sending his music into. I consider any performer who berates an audience for coughing to be a supreme a**h*le.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

I purchased this set of Beethoven trios, featuring Du Pre, Barenboim, and Perlman. The playing is top shelf.









But the coughing drives me to distraction. I listen on headphones, and it is very unpleasant. The real problem is that it occurs during quiet passages of the music itself, as opposed to during movement breaks.

So: applause is great (though I frequently skip past it). Coughing is a deal breaker for me. I totally understand the argument for live versus studio recordings. At their best, a live recording might be able to communicate some of the electricity between performers and audience. But if it suffers from coughing, I will take a studio recording in a heartbeat.

This is not to say that I am some sort of coughing nazi in a live show. I get it. People, especially old people, need to cough. I don't like it, and it might disrupt my appreciation of a beautiful passage of music, but I paid for a live show with other humans present , so it is what it is. I don't have the option of renting out the entire hall for a private show. I'm getting what I paid for at $30-$60.









My family also goes to outdoor performances in Millennium Park in Chicago (above is my son getting into the performance with my sushi chopsticks). People have picnics, conversation, etc, and there is the regular cacophony of city sounds added into the mix as well. But I am paying for nothing besides a bus ride and a takeout order, and I enjoy the sights and sounds of the city anyway. If I wanted to focus with laser like intensity on the music, I would either take it indoors or listen to a studio recording.

So a recording with coughs is the worst of both worlds. It's a venue in which I ought to be able to focus entirely on the music, but can't, and it gives me a recording of a live experience, which it isn't (I don't get the visual ambience). So why tolerate it at all?


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Also, please, let's can the politics, and don't respond to troll posts. I come here to escape all of that. We're not going to change anyone's mind about that stuff on Talk Classical, anyway.


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## vincula (Jun 23, 2020)

Personally, applause or coughing doesn't add nor subtract from the performance. It bothers me not. It's like the clicks and pops of my vinyl, hiss and so on. Not a problem either _chez vincula_. I'm very much aware that I'm listening to an artifact, a musical re-production, so as long as the performance achieves the goal of moving me and my fantasy, I'm perfectly happy.

Regards,

Vincula


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

vincula said:


> Personally, applause or coughing doesn't add nor subtract from the performance. It bothers me not. It's like the clicks and pops of my vinyl, hiss and so on. Not a problem either _chez vincula_. I'm very much aware that I'm listening to an artifact, a musical re-production, so as long as the performance achieves the goal of moving me and my fantasy, I'm perfectly happy.


Given a choice between an excellent performance with "the clicks and pops of vinyl, hiss and so on," and the same performance on CD without the clicks and pops and hiss, I'll choose the CD every time. Given the choice between an excellent studio performance with dead silence behind it, or an excellent performance in front of a rheumatic audience, I'll choose the studio recording.

Sometimes you have no choice though.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I don't have a problem with coughing or applause.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

SanAntone said:


> There is no question in my mind that the best performances are the result of the interaction between a performer and the audience, coughs and all.
> 
> Which is why I am particularly angry that we are living under a regime of fear of what is essentially getting a cold. Populations of people who cannot think critically are accepting petty tyrants to dismantle our society right before our eyes - with one casualty being live concerts. Stupid people are "virtual signalling" about how vigilant they are and riding their high horse, admonishing others to "mask up" and informing on their neighbors. It is disgusting to witness.
> 
> And don't tell me your covid "horror" stories. People die. That is a fact of life. People with compromised health die from relatively minor causes - everyday. This was reality before covid. Only now we are being programmed to accept lockdowns, stay at home orders, masks, and the whole social distancing bs. This is nothing less than a worldwide government takeover of free societies using a fake pandemic as their rationale.


You and I are on opposite ends of the spectrum on this issue - I'll say no more.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

An otherwise excellent video of The Rite of Spring is ruined by a man shouting "Bravo!" _just before_ the last note faded.

That being said, live recordings are sometimes worth it.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Bulldog said:


> You and I are on opposite ends of the spectrum on this issue - I'll say no more.


I meant to edit that post, which I have now done. It was a mistake to bring that issue into this thread.

I'll also say no more.


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## Skakner (Oct 8, 2020)

SanAntone said:


> There is no question in my mind that the best performances are the result of the interaction between a performer and the audience, coughs and all.


The contribution of this interaction to a great performance, is questionable. It depends on the the performer. During a studio recording session, there always be the chance for multiple takes.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

mbhaub said:


> I will never understand why anyone who is ill would go to a concert and spread their disease. Flu, cold, now Coronavirus. And these people who cough all the time? Quit smoking. Drink plenty of fluids. Take care of yourself, but quit exposing the rest of us to your rude behavior.


Most people I know who attend classical concerts purchase their tickets well in advance, some times as part of a subscription. As such, it might be very difficult to countenance missing a concert one has already paid for.

I suppose the more liberal the exchange/refund policy, the more likely people would be to stay home with a cough.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

MatthewWeflen said:


> I suppose the more liberal the exchange/refund policy, the more likely people would be to stay home with a cough.


And miss their chance to be immortalized on record???


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Skakner said:


> The contribution of this interaction to a great performance, is questionable. It depends on the the performer. During a studio recording session, there always be the chance for multiple takes.


Using the advantage of the studio environment for multiple takes and even splicing parts of performances together is not a _performance_ as I think of it. It is a recording, and no doubt can and does produce enjoyable listening experiences. But .... I am looking for more than that.

For me, a performance is a singularity, a spontaneous creation, with the inherent risk of mistakes and pressure of not getting a second chance. It is that crucible which I think extracts the best music-making from talented musicians.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

ORigel said:


> An otherwise excellent video of The Rite of Spring is ruined by a man shouting "Bravo!" _just before_ the last note faded.
> 
> That being said, live recordings are sometimes worth it.


Oh the 'Bravo' man. He's not actually appreciating the music. He's just waiting for it to (almost) finish so he can be the first to get his 'Bravo' in!


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

SanAntone said:


> Using the advantage of the studio environment for multiple takes and even splicing parts of performances together is not a _performance_ as I think of it. It is a recording, and no doubt can and does produce enjoyable listening experiences. But .... I am looking for more than that.
> 
> For me, a performance is a singularity, a spontaneous creation, with the inherent risk of mistakes and pressure of not getting a second chance. It is that crucible which I think extracts the best music-making from talented musicians.


One thought is that a musician may try ideas out in a concert and lay down his considered artistic view in the studio. Both studio and concert recordings valuable in different ways.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Handelian said:


> Oh the 'Bravo' man. He's not actually appreciating the music. He's just waiting for it to (almost) finish so he can be the first to get his 'Bravo' in!


. . . as he heads for the parking lot before everyone else does.


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

I dont see it that way...Perhaps he was just unable to contain his excitement any longer!!!


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Flamme said:


> I dont see it that way...Perhaps he was just unable to contain his excitement any longer!!!


so, as he heads for the bathrooms before everyone else does.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

JAS said:


> so, as he heads for the bathrooms before everyone else does.


Sometimes I shout "bravo!" while being next in line at the urinal, so....


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Skakner said:


> What's your opinion?
> *Is coughing and/or applause, deal breaker for an otherwise excellent live recording?*
> For me, absolutely. I just can't tolerate both.
> I don't own many live recordings just for these two reasons. The moment I detect either of them, the recording will go on the shelve for ever. I will never listen to it again. Thankfully, there are too many choices for good recordings.
> ...


The only problem I have with applause is that it wakes me up at the end of the recording.

Otherwise, it can really add interest to recordings of 4'33".


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

Umm there is a certain sense of pride in being the first who starts to clap at the end of the show and start an avalanche! I did it couple of times...:lol:


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

The BEST example of extraneous noise I've heard is Sviatoslav Richter's "Richter in Spoleto" recording, done in 1967. As he's walking out on stage, you hear his footsteps treading the boards, and the town bell is ringing in the background! When the opening applause dies down, you can still hear the bell ringing in the first few bars. It's beautiful!


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Sometimes excited applause at the end can really add to a spectacular performance, especially if there are yells of bravo, etc. I've heard this on Martha Argerich playing a Rachmaninoff concert, and recently on a newer Rachmanninoff recording with BBC Philharmonic/Sokolov.


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## Skakner (Oct 8, 2020)

SanAntone said:


> Using the advantage of the studio environment for multiple takes and even splicing parts of performances together is not a _performance_ as I think of it. It is a recording, and no doubt can and does produce enjoyable listening experiences. But .... I am looking for more than that.
> 
> For me, a performance is a singularity, a spontaneous creation, with the inherent risk of mistakes and pressure of not getting a second chance. It is that crucible which I think extracts the best music-making from talented musicians.


As a listener who wants a good performance, I accept studio multiple takes. In any case, we don't always know what's happening in studio recording sessions.
What I wouldn't accept, is a collage from different live performances (1st mov from Friday's concert, 2nd mov from Saturday's concert etc). A live performance should come to the listener as an entity because it's, as you say, a spontaneous creation.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I dont mind applause at the end of live recordings at all. It's just the reaction of the audience. What I do mind is really extreme coughing so it sounds like a 60 a day smokers convention during a flu pandemic. That's not acceptable.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> The BEST example of extraneous noise I've heard is Sviatoslav Richter's "Richter in Spoleto" recording, done in 1967. As he's walking out on stage, you hear his footsteps treading the boards, and the town bell is ringing in the background! When the opening applause dies down, you can still hear the bell ringing in the first few bars. It's beautiful!


What about the anti aircraft guns in Landowska's Scarlatti K490. I'm sure you can hear the tension and defiance in the performance afterwards






Or the best of the lot, the infamous Judas heckle


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> Sometimes excited applause at the end can really add to a spectacular performance, especially if there are yells of bravo, etc. I've heard this on Martha Argerich playing a Rachmaninoff concert, and recently on a newer Rachmanninoff recording with BBC Philharmonic/Sokolov.


I usually like to pretend that they are applauding me, and I take a bow.


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## Guest (Nov 19, 2020)

Bulldog said:


> You and I are on opposite ends of the spectrum on this issue - I'll say no more.


Couldn't agree more with SanAntonio!! (Somebody seems to think a health comment is a political issue!!) I see the original post has been deleted. I'm betting there are many thousands of unemployed orchestral musicians who'd welcome any kind of coughing right now, as many of them are stacking supermarket shelves. In Australia, many of our international Qantas pilots are baristas.

Bring back the concerts AND the coughing - if that's what it's going to take to make us feel alive again instead of the state of torpor we currently endure. As a friend recently quipped, "this is probably the first time in history when the death of a geriatric makes the news!!"


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

Christabel said:


> Couldn't agree more with SanAntonio!! (Somebody seems to think a health comment is a political issue!!)


A call for the CDC to be regarded as 'corrupt', plus unscientific nonsense about vaccines based on zero actual scientific knowledge is a *health* issue, and I'll report anyone that spouts such stuff here. Keep your non-scientific opinions to yourself (along with your virus load) and we'll be A-OK. Share it, and I'll report it.



Christabel said:


> As a friend recently quipped, "this is probably the first time in history when the death of a geriatric makes the news!!"


And _that_ comment is right on the cusp. First, it's not just geriatrics dying of Covid-19.

Secondly, you quip about your own grandparents dying gasping for breath if you like. But don't do it here. Have the barest minimum of decency and _humanity_, for heaven's sake.

Stick to coughing and throat sweet stories please. This is not the place to be spreading misinformation about a very serious health problem for millions of people.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Christabel said:


> Bring back the concerts AND the coughing - if that's what it's going to take to make us feel alive again instead of the state of torpor we currently endure. As a friend recently quipped, "this is probably the first time in history when the death of a geriatric makes the news!!"


Turning and turning in the widening gyre 
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere 
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst 
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand. 
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out 
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert 
A shape with lion body and the head of a man, 
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun, 
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it 
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds. 
The darkness drops again; but now I know 
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle, 
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, 
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

Since I've already been censored twice today on this thread for trying to clear up some health misinformation, I'll embed my point in classical music terms:

According to Wikipedia a performance of Bruckner's _8th Symphony_ was cancelled in 1891 on the grounds that it posed a health concern. See Wikipedia entry for "Symphony no. 8 (Bruckner)":

"...a Munich performance of [Bruckner's _8th Symphony_] by [Herman] Levi was cancelled because of a feared outbreak of cholera.."

So was the cancellation of Bruckner's concert a government conspiracy or an exercise in sound mitigation of public health concerns?


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

Coach G said:


> Since I've already been censored twice today on this thread for trying clear up some health misinformation, I'll embed my point in classical music terms:
> 
> According to Wikipedia a performance of Bruckner's _8th Symphony_ was cancelled in 1891 on the ground of it posed a health concern. See Wikipedia entry for "Symphony no. 8 (Bruckner)":
> 
> ...


I'm afraid that some posts in the vicinity of the one I complained about got hit with the delete stick. It wasn't personal, and I don't blame the mods for fly-swatting and occasionally knocking over some vases!

And to answer your question... it was the latter.


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> The ceremony of innocence is drowned;


I don't know what the poetry means. Benjamin Britten didn't understand what Yeats meant, and he quoted him incessantly! 

So I'll share a personal story instead.

Slightly elderly sister, in March, pre-Lock Down, goes to her monthly evening Women's Institute meeting. I tell her not to go, because I don't want her catching anything. She goes regardless, and finds (thank heavens) that the WI have cancelled the meeting pre-emptively. I tick her off for going anyway: her husband is 88 and is ripe for being killed off by her stupidly wanting to share a raspeberry jam-filled victoria sandwich with a bunch of relatively old people.

She sends me a text saying it's all a Chinese hoax, that it was a biological weapon research project that went wrong. I point out that it's either a hoax or a biological weapon, but it can't be both. In silence, she ignores the logic issue. I then send her various scientific articles from _Ars Technica_, quoting Nature articles and the like, in which they demonstrate by DNA analysis that this wasn't a man-made virus and that it probably originates from bats. She replies, and I quote, 'Unlike you, I don't get my information from the BBC. I have a wide circle of friends and acquaintances from whom I choose to get my information'.

Well, she's an English teacher, so full marks to her for the correct use of the accusative case, but not one of her friends is a biologist, a medical scientist, an ENT specialist, a DNA specialist, a virologist or, indeed, and to cut things short, anyone who could competently advise her on the science of the situation. I haven't spoken to her since, because I simply won't put up with that sort of medieval, Dunning-Kruger type nonsense.

Frankly, the median age of the classical music listener is such as to make most of us here more likely to die of this thing than the average. Thus: I take it seriously. Others are, of course, free not to: but don't share misinformation about it. And don't repeat the misinformation spread by others when replying to them, please.

I am frankly astonished at the lack of care for others that has already been evinced by some of the posts in this thread. Funny stories about throat sweet wrappers are one thing; claims that it's all just a bit of the 'flu and we don't mind the odd geriatric dying early... well, it's just stupid and callous. I don't care what your politics are (and if your a left-pondian, I especially don't care). But this venue is not the place for it. You kill who you want to. This poster is not for killing.

Short version: I will report anyone who posts anything about Covid-19 that is based on opinion, rather than scientific, peer-approved fact. And if it keeps up, and the mods won't react, I will do to TC as I have done to my sister and take my conversations elsewhere.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

It depends on what the piece is, how disruptive the noise is, and how good the performance is.

Applause doesn't usually bother me, although occasionally I think there can be too much of it in opera recordings where it occurs in the middle of the music, especially if the performance completely stops or the music becomes inaudible because of it. But this usually happens because the performance just heard was really good, so it's understandable. Applause at the end of a whole performance or act is fine with me.

Coughing is a bit less tolerable for me though. A little bit is OK. I'm pretty sure I've even heard studio recordings that have coughing (Berstein's New York _Le Sacre_). I can't stand when it gets to an extreme though. Apparently Jon Vickers once yelled at an audience to stop coughing while he was onstage. That's a frustration I can understand! Someone has mentioned before in another thread or something that the coughing is really irritating during the Knappertsbusch _Parsifal_ recordings, especially since there are many quiet parts. I agree. I've found it really hard for me to enjoy the famous _Parsifal_ on Philips because of this. I mean it was Bayreuth, summertime, how was there that much coughing? It can be quite annoying.

Edit: I see someone posted the recording of Vickers yelling, lol.


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## Guest (Nov 19, 2020)

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> I'm afraid that some posts in the vicinity of the one I complained about got hit with the delete stick. It wasn't personal, and I don't blame the mods for fly-swatting and occasionally knocking over some vases!
> 
> And to answer your question... it was the latter.


It's so 21st century to be censored, isn't it.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> I don't know what the poetry means. Benjamin Britten didn't understand what Yeats meant, and he quoted him incessantly!
> 
> So I'll share a personal story instead.
> 
> ...


It was the first time I'd come across the view that it's better to let people die than to cancel concerts. Or rather, to let the vulnerable die in order to allow the people who are feel less vulnerable to COVID "feel alive again." I am sure this opinion is not uncommon, but it was the first time I'd come across it stated so proudly and clearly. The words which came into my mind were that the worst are full of passionate intensity. We may be saved by a vaccine, things look promising on that front. If not I fear that we will see some dark times ahead.


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## Guest (Nov 19, 2020)

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> A call for the CDC to be regarded as 'corrupt', plus unscientific nonsense about vaccines based on zero actual scientific knowledge is a *health* issue, and I'll report anyone that spouts such stuff here. Keep your non-scientific opinions to yourself (along with your virus load) and we'll be A-OK. Share it, and I'll report it.
> 
> And _that_ comment is right on the cusp. First, it's not just geriatrics dying of Covid-19.
> 
> ...


You're going to "report it"? Where have I heard that before? And your dictatorial tone is part of that too. Ah, the modern Left. Such nice, caring people. As long as you agree with them you'll be OK.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Please.... STOP!!!


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Christabel said:


> You're going to "report it"? Where have I heard that before? And your dictatorial tone is part of that too. Ah, the modern Left. Such nice, caring people. As long as you agree with them you'll be OK.


I believe that respect for science should have absolutely nothing to do with political views.

Otherwise, I think I'm so used to coughing in historical opera recordings that I don't give it too much attention, unless it's very extreme, I suppose. I recall Barbebleu's amusing remark when he was listening to Ludwig's 1949 _Tannhäuser_: "They may have had to bury half the audience after this performance if the amount of consumptive coughing is anything to go by." :lol:


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## Guest (Nov 19, 2020)

annaw said:


> I believe that respect for science should have absolutely nothing to do with political views.
> 
> Otherwise, I think I'm so used to coughing in historical opera recordings that I don't give it too much attention, unless it's very extreme, I suppose. I recall Barbebleu's amusing remark when he was listening to Ludwig's 1949 _Tannhäuser_: "They may have had to bury half the audience after this performance if the amount of consumptive coughing is anything to go by." :lol:


I'm not talking about politics, but a particular demographic which won't tolerate dissent. The jury is out on the benefits of shutting down the international economy. Very much so.

We can only be envious of people who have the luxury of coughing in performances; our musicians are out packing supermarket shelves.


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

Christabel said:


> You're going to "report it"? Where have I heard that before? And your dictatorial tone is part of that too. Ah, the modern Left. Such nice, caring people. As long as you agree with them you'll be OK.


There is a reporting function for this site, which I intend to make use of should selfish, silly people with more concern for program selling in the interval than for the well-being of their grandparents post disinformation (as opposed to opinion, which is fine).

I'm actually not particularly left-wing. I have Margaret Thatcher's autograph, for starters.

Just don't post non-fact and expect people to not notice. Your air-head comment about it's just geriatrics was the icing on a *****-cake. Just stop it, in the name of human decency.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

annaw said:


> I believe that respect for science should have absolutely nothing to do with political views.


You're right. Which is why I get my facts from the vaccine package inserts (not CNN or the NYT) and then Google the adverse reactions and find studies reporting on them. But I can't talk about this without the threat of being "reported" and probably banned if I keep up.

So I'm done.


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

Christabel said:


> I'm not talking about politics, but a particular demographic which won't tolerate dissent.


It has nothing to do with dissent, but with disinformation.

You are free to weigh the economic consequences of having concerts versus the deaths that may be consequent on holding them. That's a fine judgment call, and I'm glad I don't have to make it.

What you are not free to do is cough in my face. Nor are you free to spout conspiracy theories about it (which you didn't do, but the person you posted in approval of did).

As for your "quip". It's just tasteless, which is why I haven't reported it and won't. You want to p"ss on people's graves go right ahead. I'm certainly not dictating that you can't. I just don't think it's a particularly good look.



Christabel said:


> The jury is out on the benefits of shutting down the international economy. Very much so.
> 
> We can only be envious of people who have the luxury of coughing in performances; our musicians are out packing supermarket shelves.


And you are entirely free to think and post so. It's an entirely valid point. But saying the CDC is corrupt and then posting to support the guy that said that? Not.

Stick to making fun of old people dying. That's tasteless, but fine.


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

SanAntone said:


> You're right. Which is why I get my facts from the vaccine package inserts (not CNN or the NYT) and then Google the adverse reactions and find studies reporting on them. But I can't talk about this without the threat of being "reported" and probably banned if I keep up.
> 
> So I'm done.


You didn't get your assertion that the CDC was corrupt from a vaccine package insert, so don't compound things by telling untruths.

All medicines have contraindications. Every single one of them, including aspirin which can make you bleed to death.

You want to post peer-reviewed cautions about a specific vaccine? Be my guest. You want to make light of a pandemic that has killed a quarter of a million of your fellow citizens? Also be my guest, actually: I can't mandate you have a social conscience, and if you don't, that's a matter for you, not me.

But you make statements that the CDC is corrupt? No. Just no. Assinine political trolling, devoid of accredited facts or science.

So I'm glad you're done, and if you are, so am I.

It's a classical music venue, not a GOP chapter meeting. Stick to music.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> Turning and turning in the widening gyre
> The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
> Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
> Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
> ...


"All things fall and are built again
And those that build them again are gay."


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

I don't mind coughing during a live performance, and which I'm attending (pre-pandemic of course), but coughing kills recordings. Any noise from an audience kills the recording because it essentially becomes part of the performance—the same damned cough, at the same time, every time a listen. Might as well just go ahead and write the cough into the sheet music.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

MarkW said:


> "All things fall and are built again
> And those that build them again are gay."


Or lesbian, as the case may be...


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

vtpoet said:


> I don't mind coughing during a live performance, and which I'm attending (pre-pandemic of course), but coughing kills recordings. Any noise from an audience kills the recording because it essentially becomes part of the performance-the same damned cough, at the same time, every time a listen. Might as well just go ahead and write the cough into the sheet music.


This is a lot like how I feel. The extra noises are worse over time because you start to anticipate them. This is also why I don't like it when studio recordings of operas add a bunch of unnecessary extra noises that are not in the score or libretto.


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## BlackAdderLXX (Apr 18, 2020)

Skakner said:


> What's your opinion?
> *Is coughing and/or applause, deal breaker for an otherwise excellent live recording?*
> For me, absolutely. I just can't tolerate both.
> I don't own many live recordings just for these two reasons. The moment I detect either of them, the recording will go on the shelve for ever. I will never listen to it again. Thankfully, there are too many choices for good recordings.
> ...


Noises like that are a nonstarter with me. Same with humming.


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

I'm annoyed because a lot of coughing could be suppressed if the audience member cared. I have a chronic cough condition and I never know when it will come on. But I can hold it until pauses in the program.

Even worse than coughing is rattling paper of any kind, that is totally preventable. Don't keep opening and closing your program and don't unwrap cellophane-sealed lozenges during a concert. Just don't.

But you know what? I think about one quarter of any audience doesn't really want to be there and doesn't care about being fastidious. How do I know? In other threads here half the people have no one close to them who is really into classical music, yet almost everyone goes to concerts in pairs or groups.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)




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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

vtpoet said:


> Or lesbian, as the case may be...


Tell that to Yeats.


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## BlackAdderLXX (Apr 18, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


>


I'd forgotten about this! Oh man, if I had a time machine this is what I would do!


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