# Mahler Symphony no 10



## DavidA

Thanks for all your contributions to the Mahler cycle. Most appreciated! Been most enlightening to a 'new convert' like me! 
I have a few more ideas for threads but first let's get on with no 10. Mahler, of course, left it incomplete and the Adagio only was usually the only movement played (and recorded) by most conductors. However, Deryk Cooke made a performing version of no 10 and others have followed suit. 
Perhaps we could present our choices in the following order:

Adagio only recordings

Completion [say which one] recordings

Thanks!


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## Larkenfield

The fine Mark Wigglesworth with the BBC National Orchestra of Wales is my favored Cooke performance edition. It's intense... passionate. Mahler wrote some harrowing dense block chords in the first movement that I still find shocking and practically have me jumping out of my skin-pure 20th-century harmonic writing to my ears and prophetic in what was to come in music as the turbulent war-like century unfolded.

To me, he was still at the height of his creative powers, no diminishment whatsoever, and his writing seemed more judiciously sparse, modern, and streamlined. The piano score was partially orchestrated but unfortunately he ran out of time to complete it, but never ideas. I think it's a remarkable symphony, well worth hearing, that shows his resolve and resilience after his depressing health diagnosis and his divorce from Alma, a woman he was still deeply in love with and emotionally attached though she'd had a love affair with someone else.

He had incredible powers of creative and personal resilience despite his losses and that's not mentioned nearly enough, as I believe he's too often played as a neurotic emotional basket case or sentimentalist. Too many conductors play his 9th as his final goodbye to the world. But it wasn't. There was the 10th and some conductors have played his 9th with little sense of reserve whatsoever, as if there would be no 10th, rather than playing the 9th as if there might be more to come, even if Mahler may not have known it himself at the time.

The 10th is one of my favorites because it's still highly personal, expressive, and seems to point to the future both melodically and harmonically. If only Fate had granted him more time to fully complete its orchestration rather than only two of the movements. IMO, the symphony reveals just as much about himself as the others with the same kind of creative inspiration and mastery.

https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symphony-No-10/dp/B000BJOOF2


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## MarkW

I love to sample non-Cooke editions of the tenth, and am continually surprised at how the completed first movement survives whatever is done to it. Maybe more indestructible than other movement he wrote.

Favorite edition: Mazetti 2. Various reasons. Sounds slighty more Mahlerian than Cooke. Gets rid of xylophone in 4th movement. Segues 4th and 5th movements with a single drumbeat -- which I've wanted to do since first hearing the first (Ormandy) recording eons ago. Gives the slow beginning to the last movement to the string basses rather than the Wagner tuba (which one wag of a critic likened to Fafner waking up hungover).

To my knowledge this edition has only been recorded by Lopes-Cobos and the Cinncinati Symphony -- but it's a gorgeous performance. The long flute solo at the beginning of the finale will take your breathe away. And the conductor has a wonderful way of dealing with the Klezmer passages in the inner movements. And that last Big Chord (and the passages melting away from it at the end) are shattering. Good job!


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## mbhaub

FYI - even the first movement isn't really complete. There are several sections where the winds were scored and seemed suspiciously empty. Others filled in the blanks and made that performable.

I love the 10th. It's remarkable that no matter what completion you hear, it still sounds like Mahler, so strong is the material. Of course not all completions are equal. Mazetti did two and I like both. Wheeler is pretty good. Samale-Mazzuca is good, the only recording marred by an unbelievably bad edit. Barshai is ok. The more recent Gamzou was interesting, but leaves Mahler's sound world behind too often. I loathe the Carpenter. Why in the world Zinman chose it for his cycle is one of the great mysteries.

So I'm the large camp: Cooke is the best we've had. Some conductors retouch it, especially the percussion writing. The aforementioned Wigglesworth is top-notch, as is the Rattle/Berlin recording. There are many other recordings of Cooke (any version) that I like: Ormandy, Levine, Sanderling...

If you're really into the 10th, you simply must hear this set:


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## Becca

I am listening to the Gielen recording for the first time and am very impressed. I will have to go back to the Rattle recordings and refresh my memory for comparison. While intellectually I think that the Berlin performance is the best, emotionally I prefer the older Bournemouth recording ... perhaps because I saw him do it with the Los Angeles Philharmonic not long after that recording.

FWIW, my choice after the Cooke is the revised Mazzetti. I understand that Mazzetti was inspired to do the revision after helping to prepare the Colorado Mahlerfest performance of the Wheeler version.


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## DavidA

The first recording of the Cooke edition was by Ormandy. Cooke later revised it.


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## Merl

I have a few complete Mahler 10s and like nearly all performing versions apart from the Carpenter, which I feel sounds wrong to my ears. I have Zinman's Carpenter 10 and don't like it at all. The Wrigglesworth is a fine Cooke account.


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## CnC Bartok

I too have a decent number of recordings of this work, and as far as I am concerned, it is as part of the Mahler canon as any of the other symphonies. No qualms about "Mahler's final wishes" etc etc for me....

Lots of Adagios in my collection, which is fine, but I love the whole thing, so the torso experience isn't as important as the whole thing.

I have two recordings of the Carpenter edition, Litton and Zinman. No, it's nowhere near as convincing as Cooke, but as a version it predates Cooke, and if it were the only version we had, I'd not be less of a Mahler 10 fan, in all honesty.

I also once bought a "recomposed" version by a chap called Matthew Herbert; by mistake, I hasten to add. Sinopoli's Adagio with some weird nature noises superimposed. Pretentious and insulting claptrap as far as I am concerned, truly awful, and made worse by the fact it is available on a characteristic eye-catching DGG (the label of quality) CD, yellow logo et al.

I also have the Joe Wheeler version (Olson on Naxos) and like that very much. It's got more of a pared down chamber atmosphere, and one could argue this was the way music was going in or around 1910, so why not? I think it's a fine alternative to the ever-evolving Cooke edition.

I do not like Ormandy's original recording. The recording itself sounds very dated indeed. Other than that, I find Wigglesworth surprisingly good (surprising because it's a freebie given away with a magazine!), and so are Chailly, Gielen, Inbal and a couple of others.

On a parallel thread, I have put Rattle's recording down as a desert island disc. Not the Berlin one, which I think is a bit slick and Mary Poppins, but the rawer, thinner, more threadbare Bournemouth recording. It was the first I heard and it remains my favourite, maybe because I hear that sense of innocent naked discovery in the performance even now, and it remains incredibly moving for me. I expect to be in a minority of one on that, but I'm sticking to what I like....


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

My Top Three, in order: Gielen, Wigglesworth (BBC National Orchestra of Wales), Rattle (Birmingham). Gielen's is particularly fine, but if you can find Wigglesworth's BBC recording don't hesitate to snap it up. I'm with Robert Pickett on Rattle, in that I much prefer his rawer Birmingham rendition than the more polished one from Berlin. Like "mbhaub" above, I can also recommend the Berthold Goldschmidt recording on Testament, not least because it includes Deryck Cooke's fascinating illustrated lecture on how he created his performing version of the score.

All my choices are Cooke versions, because they're still the most listenable and most Mahlerian, IMHO. That said, I recall being impressed by Rudolf Barshai conducting his own reconstruction, although I don't listen to it very often.


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## Becca

Rattle did the 10th with the Bournemouth Symphony and Berlin Philharmonic


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## starthrower

Boulez/Cleveland
Tilson Thomas/SF
Bernstein NYP

Complete - Thomas Dausgaard/Seattle


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## Johnnie Burgess

I like Rudolf Barshai and the Junge Deutsche Philharmonie with his version of Mahler's symphony 10.


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## SixFootScowl

I have Levine and Rattle for Mahler 10. Think they are both the same completion score.


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## Becca

Just for clarification - the Mahler 10 versions are not completions, they are performing editions of what Mahler left. The entire symphony existed in short score when he died so no completion was necessary (e.g. the Bruckner 9th), but only parts of it had been orchestrated (1st & 3rd movements and a few parts of the 2nd). The short score also included notes about how he intended to orchestrate other parts. What Cooke et.al. did was to flesh out the orchestration given the existing score, notes and what is known about Mahler's style in order that the symphony can be performed.

Personally I think that everyone who is really interested in the Mahler symphonies should hear the 10th if for no other reason than to quash the idea that the 9th was a farewell as some (e.g. Bernstein) have said. It is no more a farewell than the 6th which is part of a diptych including the 7th which he began immediately upon finishing the 6th.


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## Larkenfield

Have just heard the insightful Michael Gielen performance. For me, it has more warmth than the Wigglesworth recording, somewhat more romantic in a way that I think Mahler’s wife Alma would have loved. It sounds more like her with Gielen. The recorded sound is outstanding and the string section is rich, vibrant, and wonderful. I look forward to repeat listenings of this warm performance and remarkable symphony. I find the same effortless composition in Mahler’s music as I do in Mozart’s. I hear a great similarity in effortlessness though not of course in compositional style. Perhaps that’s why both composers are at the top of my listening list, the Mahler 10th being one of my great personal favorites that still sounds fresh and modern to my ears. It’s also of interest to hear a melodic quote from Dvorak’s New World Symphony in the iv movement of Mahler’s 10th… The “new world” (!) and that’s where he was getting ready to go...


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## Kiki

For me the 10th is Mahler's most life-affirming symphony. Following the 9th's resignation into oblivion, in the 10th Mahler came out of the abyss, went through hell, and finally found love that triumphed over death.

IMHO conductors who recorded only the Adagio tended to try too hard to over-play the music to make a complete symphony out of it, so I seldom go back to such recordings.

I am not too bothered by the difference among performing versions, the instrumentation, the additional composition, one thwack or two thwacks etc. But at the end of the day, I suppose I belong to the Cooke camp. I like the barebone nature of it, not to mention a large variety of recordings to enjoy.

I am under the impression that Wheeler IV and Mazzetti II are both pretty much barebone-oriented like Cooke (is that so?), still they seem to be more eventful (and colourful) and, it could be just me, they sound more intrusive, especially in Scherzo II and the Finale. On the other hand, I like Barshai's rich and colourful orchestration, which I find a more coherent listening experience than Wheeler IV and Mazzetti II. The Samale/Mazzuca is interesting. I think the "enforcement" at various places works pretty well from a listener's perspective. The choice of instrumentation, especially in Scherzo II and the Finale, also sounds less intrusive to me than Wheeler IV and Mazzetti II. So far I have no motivation to hear the Carpenter or Gamzou version. Everything that I've read about them seems negative.

[Cooke I] Goldschmidt/LSO 1964 Live (Testament) - Full of raw energy. Also a collector's item with Cooke's lecture!

[Cooke I] Ormandy/Philadelphia 1965 (CBS) - Gritty! No pussycat allowed. This is not the buttery Ormandy that I know but it's a nice surprise.

[Cooke II] Sanderling/BerlinSO 1979 (Berlin Classics) - Deeply heartfelt, and slightly faster than most.

[Cooke II] Rattle/Bournemouth 1980 (EMI) - Intense, manic, magnificent, but also occasionally all over the place. Deliberate, as expected of Rattle.

[Cooke II] Chailly/RSOBerlin 1986 (Decca) - Clean, rational and beautiful. The opening Adagio may be a bit relaxed, but the rest is no tamed stuff.

[Cooke III] Wigglesworth/BBCNOW 1993 Live (BBC Magazine) - Fluent, agile, shattering, very well judged pace and wide dynamic range. The Finale is one of the most tender and touching.

[Cooke III] Rattle/Berlin 1999 Live (EMI) - A mellower Adagio and more urgency in the inner movements when compared to Bournemouth 80, which give a better balance among the movements. Although still deliberate. The tenderness of the solo flute and the strings that follows in the Finale is magnificent.

[Cooke III] Gielen/Baden-Baden 2005 (Hänssler) - Meticulously balanced, highly expressive. This is one of the most lively and most upbeat.

Gielen also made an Adagio-only recording in 1989. It's more pushy (and faster). Enough said.

[Cooke III] Harding/Vienna 2007 (DG) - Super tender, super smooth and super beautiful in one long breath. There is also a kind of light fluffiness to it. Very Harding-like.

[Cooke III] Wigglesworth/Melbourne 2008 Live (MSO Live) - Richer and weightier sound than BBCNOW 93 Live, otherwise a similar, and excellent account. There is an almost unbearable lightness (of being!  ) in the quieter passages in both accounts, but it's slightly less pronounced in Melbourne 08.

[Cooke III] Inbal/Concertgebouw 2011 Live (RCO Live) - Warm, smooth, and glorious; and like Chailly's, after a relatively relaxed Adagio things become more high-octane.

[Cooke III] Dausgaard/Seattle 2015 Live (Seattle Symphony Media) - Turbulent and very much alive and kicking. "Surprised by Joy" in the midst of grief.

[Cooke III] Nézet-Séguin/Rotterdam 2016 Live (DG) - The sexy pussycat of the bunch. Another very tender and touching Finale.

[Wheeler IV] Olson/Polish National RSO 2000 (Naxos) - Not bad at all, just a little bit underwhelming.

[Mazzetti II] López-Cobos/Cincinnati 2000 (Telarc) - Tender yearning, at times idiosyncratic, especially in the Purgatorio.

[Barshai] Barshai/Junge Deutsche Philharmonie 2001 (Brilliant) - Brilliant and magnificent. Playing is superb.

[Barshai] Ashkenazy/Sydney 2011 Live (Sydney Symphony Live) - Much as I love Ashkenazy's Sibelius and Rachmaninov, his Mahler does not click with me, and his Mahler 10 is also unfortunately dwarfed by Barshai's own magnificent rendering.

[Samale & Mazzuca] Sieghart/Arnhem 2007 (Exton) - This is the dark horse! When it's expansive, it moves forward with purpose. When it's required to go berserk, it blows me away.

I don't have a favourite recording; but I suppose one cannot go wrong with Gielen, Wigglesworth or Dausgaard. Rattle, Barshai and Sieghart ought to be heard too. Personally I have a soft spot for Harding's, but I suppose it's not everybody's cup of tea. :lol:


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## Barbebleu

Kiki said:


> For me the 10th is Mahler's most life-affirming symphony. Following the 9th's resignation into oblivion, in the 10th Mahler came out of the abyss, went through hell, and finally found love that triumphed over death.
> 
> IMHO conductors who recorded only the Adagio tended to try too hard to over-play the music to make a complete symphony out of it, so I seldom go back to such recordings.
> 
> I am not too bothered by the difference among performing versions, the instrumentation, the additional composition, one thwack or two thwacks etc. But at the end of the day, I suppose I belong to the Cooke camp. I like the barebone nature of it, not to mention a large variety of recordings to enjoy.
> 
> I am under the impression that Wheeler IV and Mazzetti II are both pretty much barebone-oriented like Cooke (is that so?), still they seem to be more eventful (and colourful) and, it could be just me, they sound more intrusive, especially in Scherzo II and the Finale. On the other hand, I like Barshai's rich and colourful orchestration, which I find a more coherent listening experience than Wheeler IV and Mazzetti II. The Samale/Mazzuca is interesting. I think the "enforcement" at various places works pretty well from a listener's perspective. The choice of instrumentation, especially in Scherzo II and the Finale, also sounds less intrusive to me than Wheeler IV and Mazzetti II. So far I have no motivation to hear the Carpenter or Gamzou version. Everything that I've read about them seems negative.
> 
> [Cooke I] Goldschmidt/LSO 1964 Live (Testament) - Full of raw energy. Also a collector's item with Cooke's lecture!
> 
> [Cooke I] Ormandy/Philadelphia 1965 (CBS) - Gritty! No pussycat allowed. This is not the buttery Ormandy that I know but it's a nice surprise.
> 
> [Cooke II] Sanderling/BerlinSO 1979 (Berlin Classics) - Deeply heartfelt, and slightly faster than most.
> 
> [Cooke II] Rattle/Bournemouth 1980 (EMI) - Intense, manic, magnificent, but also occasionally all over the place. Deliberate, as expected of Rattle.
> 
> [Cooke II] Chailly/RSOBerlin 1986 (Decca) - Clean, rational and beautiful. The opening Adagio may be a bit relaxed, but the rest is no tamed stuff.
> 
> [Cooke III] Wigglesworth/BBCNOW 1993 Live (BBC Magazine) - Fluent, agile, shattering, very well judged pace and wide dynamic range. The Finale is one of the most tender and touching.
> 
> [Cooke III] Rattle/Berlin 1999 Live (EMI) - A mellower Adagio and more urgency in the inner movements when compared to Bournemouth 80, which give a better balance among the movements. Although still deliberate. The tenderness of the solo flute and the strings that follows in the Finale is magnificent.
> 
> [Cooke III] Gielen/Baden-Baden 2005 (Hänssler) - Meticulously balanced, highly expressive. This is one of the most lively and most upbeat.
> 
> Gielen also made an Adagio-only recording in 1989. It's more pushy (and faster). Enough said.
> 
> [Cooke III] Harding/Vienna 2007 (DG) - Super tender, super smooth and super beautiful in one long breath. There is also a kind of light fluffiness to it. Very Harding-like.
> 
> [Cooke III] Wigglesworth/Melbourne 2008 Live (MSO Live) - Richer and weightier sound than BBCNOW 93 Live, otherwise a similar, and excellent account. There is an almost unbearable lightness (of being!  ) in the quieter passages in both accounts, but it's slightly less pronounced in Melbourne 08.
> 
> [Cooke III] Inbal/Concertgebouw 2011 Live (RCO Live) - Warm, smooth, and glorious; and like Chailly's, after a relatively relaxed Adagio things become more high-octane.
> 
> [Cooke III] Dausgaard/Seattle 2015 Live (Seattle Symphony Media) - Turbulent and very much alive and kicking. "Surprised by Joy" in the midst of grief.
> 
> [Cooke III] Nézet-Séguin/Rotterdam 2016 Live (DG) - The sexy pussycat of the bunch. Another very tender and touching Finale.
> 
> [Wheeler IV] Olson/Polish National RSO 2000 (Naxos) - Not bad at all, just a little bit underwhelming.
> 
> [Mazzetti II] López-Cobos/Cincinnati 2000 (Telarc) - Tender yearning, at times idiosyncratic, especially in the Purgatorio.
> 
> [Barshai] Barshai/Junge Deutsche Philharmonie 2001 (Brilliant) - Brilliant and magnificent. Playing is superb.
> 
> [Barshai] Ashkenazy/Sydney 2011 Live (Sydney Symphony Live) - Much as I love Ashkenazy's Sibelius and Rachmaninov, his Mahler does not click with me, and his Mahler 10 is also unfortunately dwarfed by Barshai's own magnificent rendering.
> 
> [Samale & Mazzuca] Sieghart/Arnhem 2007 (Exton) - This is the dark horse! When it's expansive, it moves forward with purpose. When it's required to go berserk, it blows me away.
> 
> I don't have a favourite recording; but I suppose one cannot go wrong with Gielen, Wigglesworth or Dausgaard. Rattle, Barshai and Sieghart ought to be heard too. Personally I have a soft spot for Harding's, but I suppose it's not everybody's cup of tea. :lol:


Nice post Kiki. If you have no objections I'll do a cut and paste into my notes as there are a few recordings I'm keen on hearing.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

Barbebleu said:


> Nice post Kiki. If you have no objections I'll do a cut and paste into my notes as there are a few recordings I'm keen on hearing.


If you're a completist, one other you might add to the list is the completion by Yoel Gamzou, who conducts the International Mahler Orchestra on a recent release from the Wergo label.

I'm not recommending it as such, but it's worth a listen for sure. I watched a concert performance online and was impressed enough to buy the recording, but on closer listening I found Gamzou's version too fussy and un-Mahlerian in parts. Your mileage may vary!


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## Heck148

2 favorite Mahler 10s:
Ormandy/PhilaOrch
Martinon/CSO live from '66
both Deryck Cooke
Ormandy's is solid, steady, very well÷played, well-recorded
Under Martinon, it sounds like a different piece, wild, frenzied at times, frantic...quite thrilling
both approaches work...wouldn't want to be without either....


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## Becca

........deleted......


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## 89Koechel

Becca - Very fine, and just a question, or so. If the parts/perform. editions of the 10th are probably the "last thoughts", so to speak, of Gustav M in the orchestral world …. then where does that leave "Das Lied von der Erde"? One might assume that Mahler was "veering-towards" some final statements, of such … and a comparison might be Nielsen's 6th Symphony … but I might supposing, more than is really TRUE. … Anyway, Mahler's 10th, in any, cogent form … is one to be listened-to, accepted, and maybe a last testament, so to speak, of what a remarkable composer could coalesce, after years of gestations.


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## 89Koechel

Thanks, also, to Kiki … for listing the various versions (Cooke I, II and II … plus Wheeler, Barshai, et. al.), and a number of the various/many recordings, of such! Well, just a cavil, of sorts … 'bout one of your comments - "... conductors who conducted only the Adagio tended to try too hard to over-play the music …". …. Well, my friend, have listened-to one of the old masters - Szell (w/Cleveland, in 1958 … on YouTube) - and you will find ONE man who does NOT overplay any part of the Adagio, but who maintains a steady, but not stolid, pace … as he and his great Cleveland players of the time, find ALL of the emotional/logical import of this music, IMO … but without ANY exaggerations, per se.


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## Kiki

Barbebleu said:


> Nice post Kiki. If you have no objections I'll do a cut and paste into my notes as there are a few recordings I'm keen on hearing.


Thank you Barbebleu. No objection of course; I'm not that self-conscious... :lol: After all this is only one guy's opinion, and your reaction to these recordings could be very different from mine (that's the fun bit of reading this forum). Of course my list is by no means complete, there are many more recordings out there that I hope to hear and learn in the future. I'm very grateful to be able to share my love for this symphony here which IMHO was going to become (probably) Mahler's greatest work but unfortunately Fate got him; but still we are very lucky that there were great individuals like Cooke who gave us a glimpse into this symphony via their performing versions!


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## Kiki

89Koechel said:


> Thanks, also, to Kiki … for listing the various versions (Cooke I, II and II … plus Wheeler, Barshai, et. al.), and a number of the various/many recordings, of such! Well, just a cavil, of sorts … 'bout one of your comments - "... conductors who conducted only the Adagio tended to try too hard to over-play the music …". …. Well, my friend, have listened-to one of the old masters - Szell (w/Cleveland, in 1958 … on YouTube) - and you will find ONE man who does NOT overplay any part of the Adagio, but who maintains a steady, but not stolid, pace … as he and his great Cleveland players of the time, find ALL of the emotional/logical import of this music, IMO … but without ANY exaggerations, per se.


Thanks 89Koechel! Appreciate your recommendation! TBH I have not heard Szell's Adagio, but have to say your positive reaction to it has got me intrigued. Since Szell also recorded the Purgatorio, that should be a nice bonus as well! I'm listening to it on Youtube right now. So far it sounds fluent and unforced (creamy Cleveland strings too)! Oh I need a CD to be sure, let's see if I can find a bargain! Thanks again!


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## 89Koechel

You're welcome, Kiki …. and did you find it? Discogs.com has 5 listings for the LP version, coupled-with Walton's Partita for Orchestra. I think the prices start at $1.49 (!)


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## Kiki

89Koechel said:


> You're welcome, Kiki …. and did you find it? Discogs.com has 5 listings for the LP version, coupled-with Walton's Partita for Orchestra. I think the prices start at $1.49 (!)


Thanks for the heads up! TBH I have not lifted the cover of my turntable for months.... so I'll pass on LP :lol: Saw a second hand CD on Amazon JP at a reasonable price. That's tempting. I'll see what else I can find.

Come to think about it, since Szell recorded both the Adagio and the Purgatorio, I can't help speculating that he probably saw them more as perform-able "fragments" of an incomplete symphony, rather than a piece (or two pieces) that would sound convincing on its own.


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## SONNET CLV

All musical assessments remain, to some degree, subjective. Yet, though I know this, I maintain that the most sublime moment in all of music resides in the final movement of Mahler's Tenth Symphony. At least for my ears. And I've heard lots of music.

My first choice remains the two LP box set on Philips, with Wyn Morris conducting the New Philharmonia Orchestra in the "finally revised full-length performing version by Deryck Cooke".









My records in this set, often played, still boast a high level of quietness as far as surface noise goes, and I can readily enjoy that "sublime moment" to the fullest, for I've never heard it played better (with more depth, clarity, and philosophical oomph) than in the Wyn Morris interpretation.

It's a moment near the ending of that great final movement, a meditation of the theme by the strings, several measures which, in the otherwise sparsely sketched-out original score, were indicated in full by the composer himself. As if he _knew_ that _this_ was the great moment in music. A harp lays down the harmony while the strings sing the theme, leading to a richly scored string passage which nearly takes the breath away. Mahler at his most profound.

I have long agreed with Bernstein's assessment that the Ninth is Mahler's "farewell" to life (and to the music he knew and loved) and that the lengthy final movement indeed reflects upon these two mysteries of passing -- that of life and that of the music. But I've also long considered that the Tenth is simply a continuation of the story -- music that Mahler had to write because as a lover of life he did not want his final utterance to be the dark throbbings of a dying heartbeat. I've long felt that the Tenth was Mahler's _real_ final statement, one proclaiming that all of the universe is good and that the greatness of the spirit of man lives on well after any individual man's death.

Mahler marked one section of his symphony "Purgatorio". As a reader of Dante I can understand this thinking. Both Wagner and Liszt knew that Dante's "Paradiso" was beyond musical expression, but not the "Purgatorio", that realm of final cleansing beyond which waits the ineffable heavenly spheres. Those closing measures of the Mahler Tenth seem so to reflect the final steps in Purgatory as one gets his first glimpse of the sublime that lies ahead, one even beyond the skills of Mahler to express (though he does a pretty good attempt in his Fourth Symphony, one could argue!).

I will always rank this "unfinished" symphony high on my subjective lists of great music. Like Schubert's 8th or Bach's final Contrapunctus XIV of his _Art of Fugue_, such music must remain unfinished, for the only place where greater completion and more sublime sound is possible lies in a realm beyond that of us mere humans. This is truly music of the spheres, music of the universe, and, in the instance that I am philosophically wrong, music of Heaven and of God.


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## mbhaub

That was my first Mahler 10 a long time ago. I was glad to get the CD incarnation. Wyn Morris is one of those incredibly sad tales in music: a wonderful musician, fine conductor who just never made it to the big time. He worked in Cleveland for a while with Szell. Of the few LPs I kept when I purged the collection, I did keep all of Morris' Mahler: Wunderhorn lieder, Klagende Lied, Symphonies 2, 5, 8, 9, 10. If ever there was a budget box that should be provided, Morris' Mahler is a prime candidate. But who knows who owns the tapes and copyright these days.


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## perdido34

Larkenfield said:


> The fine Mark Wigglesworth with the BBC National Orchestra of Wales is my favored Cooke performance edition.


I saw Wigglesworth conduct the Cleveland Orchestra in Mahler 10 a few years ago--even better than the BBC Music CD because it's a better orchestra. If you run across a downloaded broadcast of this performance, don't bypass it!


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## perdido34

mbhaub said:


> That was my first Mahler 10 a long time ago. I was glad to get the CD incarnation. Wyn Morris is one of those incredibly sad tales in music: a wonderful musician, fine conductor who just never made it to the big time. He worked in Cleveland for a while with Szell. Of the few LPs I kept when I purged the collection, I did keep all of Morris' Mahler: Wunderhorn lieder, Klagende Lied, Symphonies 2, 5, 8, 9, 10. If ever there was a budget box that should be provided, Morris' Mahler is a prime candidate. But who knows who owns the tapes and copyright these days.


Apparently Wyn Morris had an alcohol problem and was difficult to get along with, which probably hampered his career:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ith-musicians-and-administrators-1930697.html


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## CnC Bartok

perdido34 said:


> Apparently Wyn Morris had an alcohol problem and was difficult to get along with, which probably hampered his career:
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ith-musicians-and-administrators-1930697.html


What a depressingly fascinating article. Sadly, the "must've learnt it from Szell" bit did make me chuckle, though....

I really would like to hear his Mahler10. Is it out there on CD?????


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

CnC Bartok said:


> I really would like to hear his Mahler10. Is it out there on CD?????


I've seen it on Amazon paired with the venerable recording of the 8th by Eduard Flipse.


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## DavidA

perdido34 said:


> Apparently Wyn Morris had an alcohol problem and was difficult to get along with, which probably hampered his career:
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ith-musicians-and-administrators-1930697.html


A lot of musicians do. Read John Culshaw


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## Larkenfield

Deryck Cooke on Mahler's 10th (Dec. 19, 1960) and performance:






I think the way Mahler ended it with a sense of peace rather than bitterness is true and one of his greatest triumphs. To end the cycle of his symphonies in defeat would have been greatly disappointing and unthinkable. Despite his heartrending losses throughout his life (starting with the death of nine siblings), he invariably found a way to rise above it all and this overcoming can be heard in his great symphonies if one listens for it. Like Beethoven before him, I find this of tremendous inspiration. The triumph of inspiration is that it keeps one living fully until the very end.


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## CnC Bartok

Yeah, that'll be the Berthold Goldschmidt performance, especially done to illustrate that 1960 lecture. It's on a set of Testament CDs, along with a Proms performance from a few years later?


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## Larkenfield

Wyn Morris's take on the 10th:






Mahler's long melodic lines and the way that he stretches tonality, I find truly incredible. For me, one of the greatest openings to any symphony I've heard. The composer is totally in the moment and rushes nothing in this opening. Morris plays it full and warm. What a symphony! Good performance so far...


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## Larkenfield

UPDATE on the Morris recording: I would recommend this great performance to anyone. Morris brings out a certain Viennese quality that brings all the Mahler symphonies full circle and is not as clearly evident in other performances. The Philips sound is also natural and warm, and satisfying. 

I continue to be deeply touched by the depth of this poignant symphony and Mahler’s heartbreaking final goodbye to the world. There are no words…


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## mbhaub

DavidA said:


> A lot of musicians do. Read John Culshaw


Indeed they do, including one Deryck Cooke - creator of the 10th that Morris recorded.

The Scribendum website says the Mahler 10th is Sold Out. Go for eBay.


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## Larkenfield

Not sure when Rattle recorded this, but I found it very disappointing in what I felt was its lack of depth and sensitivity, though at times quite intense and passionate. It just did not sound idiomatic enough of Mahler. Rattle also has the percussionist beat the hell out of the bass drum blows of fate, far more than it seemed necessary. My least favorite of any recordings I've heard and I actually gave up on it before it was over. Maybe others will have better luck.


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## Becca

That was Rattle's first recording of the Mahler 10th done around 1980 when Rattle was still in his mid 20's. I believe it was of the Cooke II version. At the time, Rattle was being mentored in Mahler by Berthold Goldschmidt who was involved with Cooke in preparing the performing edition.


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## Larkenfield

Becca said:


> That was Rattle's first recording of the Mahler 10th done around 1980 when Rattle was still in his mid 20's. I believe it was of the Cooke II version. At the time, Rattle was being mentored in Mahler by Berthold Goldschmidt who was involved with Cooke in preparing the performing edition.


Becca, thank you for that. It comes as a relief. Best wishes.


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## CnC Bartok

Sorry to disagree, Lark, but that recording is stupendous! Nothing has ever beaten it for me in Mahler 10.

It is indeed Cooke II.


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## Larkenfield

CnC Bartok said:


> Sorry to disagree, Lark, but that recording is stupendous! Nothing has ever beaten it for me in Mahler 10.


Well, I did suggest that maybe others will have better luck, but sorry, my head is still rattling from the tremendous pounding of the bass drum. However, I did like some parts of it and it's hardly lacking in youthful intensity & passion.


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## CnC Bartok

Bartók did indeed produce a performing version of Mahler 10, but scored it for cimbalom, cobza and Romanian bagpipes. For some reason it never caught on......:devil:

I do love the raw sense of discovery in Rattle/Bournemouth. It may not be perfect, but nor's the piece as is. Too smooth, it works less well for me, hence less enthusiasm for Rattle/Berlin. Just listen to the closing bars of the second movement. They(Bournemouth) nearly lose it. Nearly. I've heard precious few moments on record quite so exciting.


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## Larkenfield

CnC Bartok said:


> Bartók did indeed produce a performing version of Mahler 10, but scored it for cimbalom, cobza and Romanian bagpipes. For some reason it never caught on......:devil:
> 
> I do love the raw sense of discovery in Rattle/Bournemouth. It may not be perfect, but nor's the piece as is. Too smooth, it works less well for me, hence less enthusiasm for Rattle/Berlin. Just listen to the closing bars of the second movement. They(Bournemouth) nearly lose it. Nearly. I've heard precious few moments on record quite so exciting.


Lol on Bartok! Robert, I'd be interested in what you think of the Morris 10th if you have any interest in hearing it. I'm wondering if you might like it. I've heard it three times and like it better each time because of its warmth of sound. I think he was a terrific conductor. Cheers from the Mikrokozmos! If only Bartok was here now the world would be a far more interesting place. 
:cheers:


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## CnC Bartok

I'll certainly keep an eye out for the Morris on affordable CD, but it seems difficult to get hold of without selling a kidney at present. I am sure I would like it, though. I have a lot of time for his Beethoven cycle (even if it does have an appended carbuncle in his "No.10")


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## 89Koechel

Well, if you (or anyone else) can possibly accept an LP version of Morris/10th, there are some available on discogs.com, beginning at around $3. Geez, is the old form/LP so "out-of-favor", these days? Geez, I still have rare, unobtainable-from-CD-sources performances and recordings on the old cassettes, even on open-reel! OK, whatever works ….


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## Larkenfield

CnC Bartok said:


> I'll certainly keep an eye out for the Morris on affordable CD, but it seems difficult to get hold of without selling a kidney at present. I am sure I would like it, though. I have a lot of time for his Beethoven cycle (even if it does have an appended carbuncle in his "No.10")


Hi Robert, I posted the Morris performance on this thread, that is if you can play it in your area. Incidentally, I listened to the Rattle performance again and enjoyed it! I thought he did a good job after all. Lately, I've been gaga (but not Lady) on the 10th. I think it's a remarkable symphony and utterly modern and forward-looking. The poor fella just ran out of time, and what a loss.

OK, it may not be CD-quality but I thought the upload from the LP was more than acceptable. I think one of the remarkable features of this symphony and performance is how _sensual_ it is:


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## Triplets

Becca said:


> Just for clarification - the Mahler 10 versions are not completions, they are performing editions of what Mahler left. The entire symphony existed in short score when he died so no completion was necessary (e.g. the Bruckner 9th), but only parts of it had been orchestrated (1st & 3rd movements and a few parts of the 2nd). The short score also included notes about how he intended to orchestrate other parts. What Cooke et.al. did was to flesh out the orchestration given the existing score, notes and what is known about Mahler's style in order that the symphony can be performed.
> 
> Personally I think that everyone who is really interested in the Mahler symphonies should hear the 10th if for no other reason than to quash the idea that the 9th was a farewell as some (e.g. Bernstein) have said. It is no more a farewell than the 6th which is part of a diptych including the 7th which he began immediately upon finishing the 6th.


Good post, but a couple of points. First,saying that Cooke chose to do things in Mahler's style is a can of worms, because Mahler underwent stylistic changes, from his Wunderhorn Symphonies, to the more impersonal sounding 5-7, and then something else in the Ninth and Das Lied. Where many of the completions differ is in the style picked. Personally, I am not in favor of Wunderhorn Mahler reappearing in the last movement of the Tenth.
Secondly, when Mahler wrote his last works, he knew his Aortic Stenosis was going to kill him. I don't know how anyone can interpret those tremulous viola quivers that launch 9/I as anything but a man with an arythmia being conscious of his impending mortality. So he finishes the Ninth, intended as a farewell, and...whoops, I'm not dead yet! Now what to write? Well, Alma's infidelities seemed to have inspired a crisis that launched the First Movement, and as for the rest....


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## Becca

Over the last 10 days I have listened to a few different M10 performances representing 3 different editions in this order...

Cooke III - Gielen/SWR and Rattle/Bournemouth
Barshai - Barshai/Junge Deutsche Philharmonie
Mazzetti (revised) - Lopez-Cobos/Cincinnati

Regarding the Mazzetti, I am on record as saying that it is second only to the final Cooke edition as a representation, mea culpa, now let me withdraw that opinion. Listening to it after the other recordings it gave me the same type of disoriented feeling as listening to Luciano Berio's _Rendering_, i.e. the sense that I was bouncing back and forth between two different composers - except that in the case of the Berio, the switch between Schubert & Berio is the point of the work, whereas the Mazzetti/M10 is supposed to represent what Mahler *might* have done. Perhaps some parts but methinks Mazzetti strayed way too far in some places, particularly the second scherzo. (Forget the original Mazzetti as done by Slakin/St.Louis as Mazzetti has withdrawn that version.)

What about the Barshai? Well it is, in my view, a much more reasonable approach, albeit also a bit more personalized than the Cooke. As a performance it is excellent, but not enough to replace the Cooke version. Perhaps it is because I got to know the 10th almost 40 years ago from the Rattle/Bournemouth Cooke version. Imprinting perhaps, but it is a more convincing presentation of the symphony even given that it does very little to expand on Mahler's short score (which was the whole point of Cooke's work.)

So on to the Cooke performances of which I will comment later after relistening to the Rattle/Berlin (no more than one per day!) I would also be interested in hearing the Wigglesworth but don't have access to it.

P.S. I will not be listening to either the Ormandy or Martinon as both represent Cooke's first, unpublished version done prior to him being given access to more of Mahler's notes and sketches which were substantial enough to make Cooke rethink some parts.

P.S. I have heard some of the Carpenter in the past and have no intention of revisiting it. I may revisit the Wheeler version however from what I have read, I am not inclined to try the Gamzou.


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## DrSardonicus

Just dropping into this thread to say that I'm loving this symphony at the moment. The heartbreaking opening Adagio, the frenetic Scherzos, and the stunning finale which bring it full circle. It's just an excellent piece of work. 

I'm listening to the Rattle Bournemouth by the way.


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## Radames

I've been collecting different versions over the past year. The only one I don't like much (because it doens't sound much like what Mahler ) is the Carpenter - Andrew Litton, Dallas Symphony Orchestra.

A couple I have not heard are Samale/Mazzucca and Gamzou 2010. 

It's very confusing! Can someone please invent a time machine and get Mahler to do it himself!!!


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## MrMeatScience

This is one of my favorite Mahler symphonies (in Cooke's performance version). Chailly and Gielen do it best for my tastes. The opening adagio is just sublime, the inner movements are as inspired as any (the Purgatorio is enigmatic, in turns charming and menacing). The Finale is profoundly moving, especially as the finish line approaches and the strings shoot upwards one last time, like one last breath from the dying composer. Brilliant stuff, even if Mahler didn't take it as far as he would have. I'd love to hear what he would have done with it, but am satisfied with Cooke's as the best we can do.


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## CnC Bartok

A new and potentially interesting version, coming out on BIS next month:

Left unfinished at the death of the composer, Gustav Mahler's Tenth Symphony has exerted an enormous fascination on musicologists as well as musicians. Whether fully orchestrated in specific passages, or a sole melody in others, there is one continuous line throughout the surviving manuscript pages and over the years a number of different completions or performing versions have seen the light of day. One of the latest is this 'recreation' of the work for chamber orchestra by composer and conductor Michelle Castelletti.

In her liner notes to the recording, Castelletti describes the symphony as 'possibly one of Mahler's most passionate emotional outbursts and autobiographical creations'. The decision to make an orchestration for chamber forces was inspired by the example of the Viennese Society for Private Musical Performance, established by Arnold Schoenberg in 1918 with the goal of performing newly composed music. Among the works performed by the Society were chamber orchestra versions of Mahler's Symphony No.4 and Das Lied von der Erde - the latter made by Schoenberg himself - and in her version of Symphony No.10, Castelletti uses a similar instrumentation. This new completion appears on disc for the first time, in a performance by the acclaimed Lapland Chamber Orchestra under John Storgårds, the ensemble's artistic director since 1996.


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## Barbebleu

CnC Bartok said:


> A new and potentially interesting version, coming out on BIS next month:
> 
> Left unfinished at the death of the composer, Gustav Mahler's Tenth Symphony has exerted an enormous fascination on musicologists as well as musicians. Whether fully orchestrated in specific passages, or a sole melody in others, there is one continuous line throughout the surviving manuscript pages and over the years a number of different completions or performing versions have seen the light of day. One of the latest is this 'recreation' of the work for chamber orchestra by composer and conductor Michelle Castelletti.
> 
> In her liner notes to the recording, Castelletti describes the symphony as 'possibly one of Mahler's most passionate emotional outbursts and autobiographical creations'. The decision to make an orchestration for chamber forces was inspired by the example of the Viennese Society for Private Musical Performance, established by Arnold Schoenberg in 1918 with the goal of performing newly composed music. Among the works performed by the Society were chamber orchestra versions of Mahler's Symphony No.4 and Das Lied von der Erde - the latter made by Schoenberg himself - and in her version of Symphony No.10, Castelletti uses a similar instrumentation. This new completion appears on disc for the first time, in a performance by the acclaimed Lapland Chamber Orchestra under John Storgårds, the ensemble's artistic director since 1996.
> 
> View attachment 114072


Release date is 5 April apparently.


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## mbhaub

Thanks for the heads up. This could be interesting. If the transcription is any good, it could also make the 10th much more accessible for performers and audiences.


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## Kiki

Regarding Michelle Castelletti’s chamber “recreation” of Mahler 10 conducted by John Storgårds,

There are some beautiful dissonance passages (esp. in the Adagio). The orchestral balance is transparent, with lots of details to be heard, and I like the touches of the piano/triangle/harp very much, so kudos to John Storgårds too, but there are also some moments of fussy conducting (again esp. in the Adagio). And then throughout the piece there are glissandi, glissandi and more glissandi...

This is certainly not a bare-bone Mahler 10. The real fun begins with Scherzo II where Castelletti’s composition/orchestration becomes more apparent, which I find rich and colourful. The terror created by Castelletti at the beginning of the Finale is eye opening, while the accompanying orchestration for the solo flute takes some getting used to (have to keep reminding myself this is not bare-bone Mahler), and the “love theme” in the second half of the Finale is juxtaposed, revealingly and transparently, with dissonance heard earlier, and it finishes off (glissando again) with a most ecstatic “Almschi” outcry.

The stylistic change from the first three movements to the last two is perhaps too big a leap for me. Have to confess I find Barshai more coherent across the movements, although I still prefer Cooke’s bare-boneness.


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## Malx

For those interested in hearing the Castelletti chamber recreation it is now available on spotify.

I intend making time in the near future to give it a listen.


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## Kiki

"Discovered" this while hunting for second hand CDs, a piano transcription of the Cooke performing version. Mahler's line is presented so clearly. Really love this, esp. the Purgatorio. My only complaint is the under par recording, which reminds me of my first mini cassette recorder...


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## gardibolt

mbhaub said:


> FYI - even the first movement isn't really complete. There are several sections where the winds were scored and seemed suspiciously empty. Others filled in the blanks and made that performable.
> 
> I love the 10th. It's remarkable that no matter what completion you hear, it still sounds like Mahler, so strong is the material. Of course not all completions are equal. Mazetti did two and I like both. Wheeler is pretty good. Samale-Mazzuca is good, the only recording marred by an unbelievably bad edit. Barshai is ok. The more recent Gamzou was interesting, but leaves Mahler's sound world behind too often. I loathe the Carpenter. Why in the world Zinman chose it for his cycle is one of the great mysteries.
> 
> So I'm the large camp: Cooke is the best we've had. Some conductors retouch it, especially the percussion writing. The aforementioned Wigglesworth is top-notch, as is the Rattle/Berlin recording. There are many other recordings of Cooke (any version) that I like: Ormandy, Levine, Sanderling...
> 
> If you're really into the 10th, you simply must hear this set:
> View attachment 111956


This Testament disc is back in stock at Berkshire Record Outlet broinc.com at a small fraction of the asking price on Amazon, if anyone else is interested. Presumably a cutout but I'm not picky about such things.


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## mbhaub

What's wrong with cutouts? Better than a landfill! Heck, I'd guess that a third of my collection came from Berkshire. Saved a fortune.


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## MarkW

CnC Bartok said:


> In her liner notes to the recording, Castelletti describes the symphony as 'possibly one of Mahler's most passionate emotional outbursts and autobiographical creations'.
> View attachment 114072


Of course if he had died shortly after completing the Sixth, Eighth, Ninth, or Das Lied, would commentators be saying the same thing about those works?


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## Becca

MarkW said:


> Of course if he had died shortly after completing the Sixth, Eighth, Ninth, or Das Lied, would commentators be saying the same thing about those works?


Some of those who deny the 10th do say it about the 9th! (think LB)


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## DavidA

I can never see why people get into such a state about this work. It is probably not how Mahler might have finished it but it is a work of art to be enjoyed all the same. Mozart's requiem was completed by someone else but that doesn't stop us enjoying it


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## cyberstudio

Barshai made the 10th sounded like the 6th - not that I didn't enjoy it, nor anyone, possibly Mahler himself included, knew what the finished 10th would have sounded like.

Cooke's performing version made the 10th performable. That means it was not even claiming to reflect what the symphony would have sounded like. At least Barshai was making a real attempt at "completing" the orchestration.


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## SocraticGadfly

Per CinC, the Wheeler remains my favorite. Bought the Naxos recording of Wheeler 1966 a couple of years after I bought Wigglesworth's recording of Cooke. Heard the godawful Litton (godawful on Mahler in general) / Carpenter live, per Radames.


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## SocraticGadfly

YES! Hindsight is not always 20-20, especially when personal impressions are part of the hindsight. This goes along with the old alleged quasi-superstition that classical composers would die if they wrote more than 9 symphonies, cuz Beethoven. Funny that Mozart and Haydn didn't keel over, and eventually, neither did Shostakovich.

As far as "interpreting" the Ninth ... unless and only where Mahler has actual life notes indicating particular aspects of the Ninth should be seen as "personal program music," I kind of scoff at such things.

And, per this Guardian column on the creation of the Tenth, I also scoff at Alma Mahler's claims to be inerrantly channeling Gustav. https://www.theguardian.com/music/2004/dec/03/classicalmusicandopera1


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## flamencosketches

I'm interested in getting a recording of the completed Mahler's 10th at some point in the future. What are some of the good ones?

This one looks intriguing:









Most of the Mahler recordings in my library are older, so it would be nice to get one from a young/active conductor and orchestra. I guess I'm looking for the Deryck Cooke version.


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## starthrower

I have Dausgaard disc. I think it's superb!


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## NLAdriaan

flamencosketches said:


> I'm interested in getting a recording of the completed Mahler's 10th at some point in the future. What are some of the good ones?
> 
> This one looks intriguing:
> 
> View attachment 120307
> 
> 
> Most of the Mahler recordings in my library are older, so it would be nice to get one from a young/active conductor and orchestra. I guess I'm looking for the Deryck Cooke version.


I think Simon Rattle did a relatively decent job conducting the BPO in Deryck Cooke's 1st (AKA Mahler 10)


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## NLAdriaan

^^^^^^And Chailly too, which recording is in his overall very decent Mahler symphonic set


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## flamencosketches

NLAdriaan said:


> ^^^^^^And Chailly too, which recording is in his overall very decent Mahler symphonic set


Good to know, the completed 10th isn't frequently included in full sets, is it?


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## Art Rock

Gielen's box has the complete 10th as well (Cooke version).


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## CnC Bartok

Of the boxes I have, Rattle (Berlin, not Bournemouth), Chailly, Inbal, Gielen, Zinman and Levine (incomplete cycle, but complete Tenth) include the whole symphony, not just the Adagio. Zinman's Carpenter, so judge as you see fit....


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## flamencosketches

So I'm leaning toward the Rattle/Berlin and I know where I can get it for cheap. But this one looks curious:










I have heard great things about Barshai's Mahler 5th with the Junge Deutsche Philharmonie, but I'm not in the market for another 5th recording at the moment. This 10th is a performance of a reconstruction by Barshai himself. Has anyone here heard the Barshai reconstruction? Has it been recorded any other times? Worth a listen, or is Derrick Cooke the way to go?


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## Becca

To my knowledge nobody else has done Barshai's version. From my recollection, Barshai's reconstruction is a bit more 'creative' in some of his solutions than Cooke, i.e. a bit more speculative about what Mahler might have done, consequently I believe that one should first get to know the Cooke III version and only then try either Barshai, Wheeler or revised Mazzetti.


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## flamencosketches

Becca said:


> To my knowledge nobody else has done Barshai's version. From my recollection, Barshai's reconstruction is a bit more 'creative' in some of his solutions than Cooke, i.e. a bit more speculative about what Mahler might have done, consequently I believe that one should first get to know the Cooke III version and only then try either Barshai, Wheeler or revised Mazzetti.


Noted. Thanks, that's just the kind of advice I was looking for. One thing that was tempting about that Barshai: it is dirt cheap. But I figured it may not be sufficient to be my only recording of that work.


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## Becca

With the exception of the Carpenter version which I strongly recommend avoiding, what is most striking about the Cooke, Wheeler, Mazzetti and Barshai is not how much they differ but how much they are the same, something which argues strongly for the 10th being a real Mahler symphony and not as some have said, Cooke's 1st symphony.


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## Kiki

flamencosketches said:


> So I'm leaning toward the Rattle/Berlin and I know where I can get it for cheap. But this one looks curious:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have heard great things about Barshai's Mahler 5th with the Junge Deutsche Philharmonie, but I'm not in the market for another 5th recording at the moment. This 10th is a performance of a reconstruction by Barshai himself. Has anyone here heard the Barshai reconstruction? Has it been recorded any other times? Worth a listen, or is Derrick Cooke the way to go?












Ashkenazy also recorded Barshai's edition of Mahler 10 with the Sydney Symphony Orchestra back in 2011, which is IMO a less persuasive account than Barshai's own.

Barshai's edition sounds less "bare-bone" than Cooke's. On the other hand, Barshai's "composition" sounds more coherent as a whole than Wheeler IV, Mazzetti II or Samale/Mazzuca. His own recording is definitely worth hearing; but as far as I know, together with Ashkenazy's, these are the only choices available.

On the other hand, with the Cooke edition, there are a lot of great recordings to choose from, from the likes of Gielen, Wigglesworth (x2), Dausgaard. Rattle (x2) etc.


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## CnC Bartok

In the past few weeks I've managed to hear the Morris Tenth, and I think very highly of it. There are moments where I feel he is a little bit too "polite", and it all feels a little bit too controlled, but it is a very passionate and well phrased performance. 

As with everything at the moment, Gielen is creeping up in the overall standings, I just love the clarity of line he brings out, but Rattle on the south coast remains my favourite!


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## Kiki

CnC Bartok said:


> In the past few weeks I've managed to hear the Morris Tenth, and I think very highly of it. There are moments where I feel he is a little bit too "polite", and it all feels a little bit too controlled, but it is a very passionate and well phrased performance.


That sounds encouraging. I've been pondering about getting the HDTT transfer of the Wyn Morris Mahler 10, but have held back because of past experience with HDTT's vanilla-style sound orientation. Recently it's been re-mastered in Japan and released by Decca (think that's a Tower Records special edition). Thiat sounds even more tempting.


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## Granate

flamencosketches said:


> This one looks intriguing:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most of the Mahler recordings in my library are older, so it would be nice to get one from a young/active conductor and orchestra. I guess I'm looking for the Deryck Cooke version.


I own this on CD. I was quite positive when I streamed it next to others like Levine.

But I wish I liked it more... It's not a symphony completion I want to listen to when I do Mahler marathons...


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

flamencosketches said:


> I have heard great things about Barshai's Mahler 5th with the Junge Deutsche Philharmonie, but I'm not in the market for another 5th recording at the moment. This 10th is a performance of a reconstruction by Barshai himself. Has anyone here heard the Barshai reconstruction?


Barshai's 10th is definitely worth hearing, and if you shop around you can get it in a double-CD set with his excellent 5th.


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## joen_cph

Among those I've heard, I like Rattle/Bournemouth and Wigglesworth/BBC the most.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

joen_cph said:


> Among those I've heard, I like Rattle/Bournemouth and Wigglesworth/BBC the most.


Two excellent recordings.


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## Kiki

Bit the bullet... What a strange Mahler 10. Starting with a hugely down-played Adagio, overall it might not reach the same level of angst or tenderness of some other modern performances, it is however at times a free spirit maverick, at times an unabashed romantic. Really love it.


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## Granate

^^

I was on the verge of buying it. I thought it could be really special as it was remastered in 24bit from the Original sources. I was looking for a 10th with English flavour to resemble the playing of the London Philharmonic, and I challenged up to 10 recordings included this one (the youtube video by Mischa Horenstein). It's true that while the SQ is never like the CD, because this was a bad LP rip, the conducting and sometimes the playing was not winning me over a single bit.

So in the end I made a different top 3 of recordings that I should relisten or buy. This wasn't worth the 40€ for me.



Granate said:


> I own this on CD. I was quite positive when I streamed it next to others like Levine.
> 
> But I wish I liked it more... It's not a symphony completion I want to listen to when I do Mahler marathons...


This in the end made my top three of recordings: in comparative listen, it is the most spotless and powerful playing in the market, in my opinion. When I listen to it alone, it becomes bland at times.


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## Kiki

^^ 

I’m always fascinated by how differently we react to the same recording… Have to confess that I enjoy the Wyn Morris Tenth for its eccentricity, and the Dausgaard Tenth for its turbulent rollercoaster ride.  

Having said that, I think the Dausgaard is a safe go-to choice, but the Wyn Morris probably is not.


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## mbhaub

You should have been there some 46 years ago when the Morris came out. Up to that time, the only 10th we had was the wonderful Ormandy/Philadelphia. Morris, doing the revised version, was a godsend. Since then, as performers and conductors got more familiar with the work, performances have improved - for lack of a better word. It's almost a standard repertoire work nowadays. For that reason alone, the Morris will always have a special place in my library along with the Ormandy who introduced us all to it.


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## Heck148

the Ormandy/PhilaOrch version is very good, and wonderfully played...Ormandy seemed really into it, and it's a fine effort...right about that same time, Jean Martinon conducted it in Chicago [rel. on CSO archival set <CSO- The First 200 Years>]...a thrilling performance that sounds like a different work...manic, even diabolical, high-strung...world of difference between Ormandy and Martinon, I wouldn't want to be without either


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## Kiki

Trivia time.

It says "クック版第三稿" (Cooke version, third draft) on the Decca-Tower CD of the Wyn Morris Tenth.

"Third draft"? OK, without using my brain, when I was entering metadata for my rip, I entered Cooke III.

It only came to me two days later that it can't be Cooke III. It must be Cooke II instead. Silly me.

The Japanese notes are very clear that the "third draft" was completed in 1972, so this "third draft" must be Cooke II, not III.

Also, this recording was made in 1973, so again it must be Cooke II which Wyn Morris had also premiered the year before. Cooke III simply did not exist in 1973.

So why do the notes refer to Cooke II as the "third draft"?

The Japanese wikipedia page for Mahler 10, like the notes, also refers to the 1972 version as the "third draft"; and my guess is that, it is after all, chronologically the THIRD draft. (Cooke 0 is known as the "first draft" on Japanese wiki.)

Blimey! I should have known. Ha ha.

BTW Japanese wiki refers to Cooke III as "third draft, second edition". Now that's what I call descriptive! :lol:


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## joen_cph

The Japanese are often quite meticulous people


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## Larkenfield

There is indeed a 3rd Final Version of the Cooke performance edition that is copyright 1974 and first published in 1976: https://issuu.com/scoresondemand/docs/symphony_10_cooke_30391. It must have been one of the last things he published because he died in Oct. of '76.


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## CnC Bartok

Ok, I've bitten the proverbial bullet too, a la Kiki, and ordered a copy of the Wyn Morris Mahler 10, the Tower Records Limited Edition CD from Japan. £25!!!!! Ouch!!!!! According to the Tower website, it's taken from the original masters. So it should be better than the Scribendum issue, which is apparently fraught with problems?

I just hope I won't be stung for Import duties.


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## Kiki

^ 

Congratulations! Hope you'll receive it soon! 

Is it fair to say that the Wyn Morris have acquired a cult status despite its flaws? Also have to admire the passion of the Japanese for re-mastering it which IMO is very well done. (Curious to know if anyone has got HDTT's hi-res transfer. Is it good?)


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## Kiki

Although unintentionally, today I listened to the Gamzou "completion" (officially a "realisation and elaboration of the unfinished drafts"). 

This is certainly not a bare-bone performing version. There is a lot of "composition" for sure. There are also a lot of extreme changes in dynamics and tempi. The performance also includes many idiomatic moments that heightens the drama. (Yep, the drama in the Tenth.) The recording is superb. It showcases the imaginative orchestration brilliantly; and it has a very wide dynamic range so while the opening of the Adagio is barely audible at normal listening volume, the climaxes will blow your socks off.

Once gotten over the fact that this is not (entirely) Mahler, I've found its "composition" quite fascinating in fact. But then the Tenth has never been entirely Mahler anyway.

On the down side, there are moments in the Adagio and the Finale where I find the "composition" a bit all over the place, lacking in cohesion. 

But I do like the performance (although not so much the "completion"). I cannot help imagining, if Mr. Gamzou would give us a Cooke III recording, it could be an instant winner.


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## flamencosketches

I have a goal of listening to the completed Mahler 10th in full by the end of the month (the 10th month of the year; I had a similar goal with the 9th symphony last month). I just remembered that I have the Rattle/Berlin. Bought it used a few months ago. I believe he uses the Derrick Cooke version...?


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## Kiki

^ Yes, Rattle/Berlin is Cooke III. And I think his Finale is magnificent!


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## Granate

Kiki said:


> Although unintentionally, today I listened to the Gamzou "completion" (officially a "realisation and elaboration of the unfinished drafts").


Even if I still prefer the Dausgaard CD I own, I plan to purchase this recording one day. Only YouTube offers the complete recording and I always get it split between ads and kills the mood. I think the orchestral playing, and in lesser amount Gamzou's conducting, is way below the level of the bestiality that Gamzou created and which should be taken seriously by more and especially more experienced Mahler interpreters. This composition sounds much closer to the arresting climaxes of the 6th than the Second Vienesse School feeling that the 9th had and which certainly was the path Mahler was following as Cooke portrayed well in his performing version.

I hope that in the future Gamzou makes another recording with a much more professional orchestra to avoid the apparent playing mistakes and false notes of the live performance. He could keep revising the cmposition or let others record it. In any case, I'm still waiting the London Philharmonic to invite Yannick Nézet-Séguin another season to perform and record the Cooke III of the No.10.


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## CnC Bartok

My copy has arrived. I think it sounds great, some really fine remastering has gone on.

That said, I had to pay an extra £13 in import duties. Morris' recording may have attained cult status, I reckon those chaps at Customs and Excise are a bunch of cults as well.


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## Kiki

Oh dear..... look at the bright side, this is a really enjoyable Tenth!


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## mbhaub

How are the "liner notes" in this edition? The reason I ask is that the booklet that came with the original LP release was extraordinarily well done. Back in the '50s - '70s record companies often had terrific booklets made - that's one big loss of the cd era, and now with streaming soon to be gone forever.


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## CnC Bartok

mbhaub said:


> How are the "liner notes" in this edition? The reason I ask is that the booklet that came with the original LP release was extraordinarily well done. Back in the '50s - '70s record companies often had terrific booklets made - that's one big loss of the cd era, and now with streaming soon to be gone forever.


If you're asking about the Morris 10th, liner notes are virtually non-existent.


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## mbhaub

Here ya go. Sorry - I don't have a large format scanner anymore and I forgot to flip alternate pages.
View attachment Mahler10Morris.pdf


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## Kiki

Oh well, the Tower-Decca CD of the Morris Tenth includes notes in Japanese only. It's written in 2019 by the Japanese music critic Ryosuke Masuda, of whom Mahler is one of his specialities. The notes describe how the various Cooke editions came about, plus a detailed, mostly matter-of-fact analysis of all five movements. Nice. Although I was also baffled by some of his comments, e.g. likening the middle section of the Finale to the Rondo-Burleske. It has never occurred to me that they were in any way similar…

Talking about LP liner notes… 

When I was young, I loved reading the liner notes while listening, but I only liked them on the back of the sleeve which was easy to hold in my hands, rather than a large piece of folded paper inserted inside which was difficult to get out of the sleeve and would be flapping around annoyingly while holding it...

Nowadays I don’t read them, simply because I can’t read them anymore. :lol: (I know, I know, although I’ve passed the half-century mark, I’m still a baby in the eyes of many of you, but my eyesight I’m sure is no better than most of you. :lol


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## CnC Bartok

mbhaub said:


> Here ya go. Sorry - I don't have a large format scanner anymore and I forgot to flip alternate pages.
> View attachment 124785


You, Sir, are a gent through and through. Much appreciated.

The CD from Japan does have the typed letters from Alma, but in terms of further English errr that's about it! I can scan that for you, but I very much doubt it's value! :lol:


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

Kiki said:


> But I do like [Gamzou's] performance (although not so much the "completion").


That's a good way of putting it. I watched a stream of one of Gamzou's concerts, and I enjoyed it so much that I bought his recording. It's pretty good, but I found it wasn't quite as compelling to listen to.


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## CnC Bartok

Listened to the whole of the Morris recording today, nice and at a sensible volume, with no distractions.

Swept me away........wow!


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## flamencosketches

I finally got to listening to Mahler's completed 10th symphony for the first time this morning. It was the Simon Rattle/Berlin Philharmonic recording.

First of all, the performance was phenomenal from the Berliners, and I enjoyed Rattle's conducting, his phrasing, especially in the first and last movements, and thought he generally made a strong case for this work. However, as for the music itself, it either will take a few more listens to grow on me, or maybe I just don't like it all that much. It was very intriguing, thought provoking, and beautiful at times, but I thought it overall far inferior to any of the other late Mahler works. It doesn't seem to flow very well, and the minimalistic orchestration just does not sound like Mahler to me. Fully complete in short score or not, it does not sound like a finished work by any means. Of course, it _isn't_ complete, and perhaps this is one of its charms, but I would not say that it's one of his better symphonies by any stretch.

Anyway, these are first impression thoughts and in a few months, having spent more time with the music, I reckon I'll have to eat my words. As for Rattle, I was really impressed and I plan on checking out more of his Mahler recordings.

Has anyone else been listening to Mahler's 10th lately? I do still find it a fascinating work.


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## Guest

I seem to remember listening to Rattle's earlier Birmingham recording. Beyond remembering that I liked it, the memory had receded into the mists.


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## starthrower

The completed first movt is one of my cherished pieces of symphonic music. It's what got me into Mahler. I have the completed version by Dausgaard / Seattle Symphony but I need to listen to it a couple more times before I can form an opinion of the whole.


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## mbhaub

Of course, Mahler didn't complete any movement - even the first. There are many pages with the wind parts strangely blank - others (Zemlinsky for one) filled in what was conjectured Mahler would have done. Far from not sounding like Mahler, what I have found striking for the last 50 years is that no matter which completion is played, they all sound like Mahler! Whether Cooke, Mazzetti, Carpenter (ugh!), Wheeler, Barshai, Samale...Mahler's genius comes through despite the different approaches.

And then there's this to consider: nothing he wrote and performed didn't undergo serious and continual refinement and improvement. He never made cuts, but did make substantial changes in orchestration, dynamics, and other subtle things. And corrected wrong notes - not so subtle. So in that sense, Das Lied and the Ninth really aren't finished, either. There is no question they would have been revised somewhat if he had had the opportunity to conduct them.

Rattle is very, very good. I also really like Chailly, Sanderling, and Levine.


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## Larkenfield

If true, it’s significant of the 10th that Mahler had got as far as substantially orchestrating the first two movements and the opening 30 bars of the third movement when he had to put the work aside to make final revisions of the 9th. He was indeed constantly refining and revising but unfortunately ran out of time when initially orchestrating the 10th. Even so, the 10th is one of my favorites in the Cooke performance edition and I feel that Mahler was still at the height of his creative powers despite everything, despite the emotional turbulence at the close of his life. For me, for many, he was such a remarkable composer who kept evolving to the very end. The opening theme of the 10th in the violas sounds so modern and streamlined to me, looking more forward in the development of 20th-century music than to the past, with every note counting, with nothing extraneous and everything distilled down to its very essence.


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## arpeggio

I have the following versions in my library: Cooke, Mazzetti, Carpenter, Wheeler, Barshai in my library. A few years ago I had the pleasure of meeting Some Guy. We spent the afternoon listening to the various versions and talking about them.


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## MrMeatScience

The Cooke performing version of the Tenth might be my favorite piece of music of all time (Das Lied and the Ninth take that title sometimes, though). I like the sparer orchestration -- I think it suits the character of the music. It's not echt-Mahler, but there's more than enough of him in there for me to hear it. I can't even imagine how frighteningly powerful it would be if he had lived another few years to finish and polish it.


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## Philip Kraus

mbhaub said:


> FYI - even the first movement isn't really complete. There are several sections where the winds were scored and seemed suspiciously empty. Others filled in the blanks and made that performable.
> 
> I love the 10th. It's remarkable that no matter what completion you hear, it still sounds like Mahler, so strong is the material. Of course not all completions are equal. Mazetti did two and I like both. Wheeler is pretty good. Samale-Mazzuca is good, the only recording marred by an unbelievably bad edit. Barshai is ok. The more recent Gamzou was interesting, but leaves Mahler's sound world behind too often. I loathe the Carpenter. Why in the world Zinman chose it for his cycle is one of the great mysteries.
> 
> So I'm the large camp: Cooke is the best we've had. Some conductors retouch it, especially the percussion writing. The aforementioned Wigglesworth is top-notch, as is the Rattle/Berlin recording. There are many other recordings of Cooke (any version) that I like: Ormandy, Levine, Sanderling...
> 
> If you're really into the 10th, you simply must hear this set:
> View attachment 111956


I think the Carpenter version has received a lot of unnecessary bad mouthing. I used to share the notion that the Carpenter was dismissable based on what I had read, until I heard it in Litton's superb recording with the Dallas SO. It is important to note that Carpenter did not call his version a "performing version", but a completion. I think a great many of the fine musicians who have attempted work on the 10th have been overly careful of not treading on Mahler's sacrosanct compositional persona. After hearing Carpenter, who adds a tremendous amount of original material without altering structure or harmony, the Cooke versions especially sound barren. Many intellectuals have rationalized that Mahler would have written in leaner, more modernistic orchestral language by this time. However, I'm not sure I buy that if one considers the orchestrations of 7-9 plus Das Lied. To my ears, Carpenter is trying to fill out the work in an attempt to approximate or guess some of the revisions and additions Mahler MIGHT have made. Of course, it will never be Mahler. Carpenter does make some miscalculations; overuse of the crash cymbal; some over elaborate, over fussy wind cues in attempt to penetrate the composer's earlier style. But for all its faults, I feel like I am listening to a fuller vision of the work regardless of the guess work, especially if you follow it along with the score (available online on issuu.com); Contrary to some other writers, it sounds quite Mahlerian to me and it is obvious that Carpenter has deeply studied the composers orchestral style. Perhaps this is why Andrew Litton took an interest. It is distinctly a different approach. Thus, Wheeler and Cooke sound like torsos to me. Interestingly enough, the most recent completion by Gamzou is very interesting indeed as well.


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## Barbebleu

Try the Barshai reconstruction. I really liked it.


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## DrSardonicus

SONNET CLV said:


> All musical assessments remain, to some degree, subjective. Yet, though I know this, I maintain that the most sublime moment in all of music resides in the final movement of Mahler's Tenth Symphony. At least for my ears. And I've heard lots of music.
> 
> My first choice remains the two LP box set on Philips, with Wyn Morris conducting the New Philharmonia Orchestra in the "finally revised full-length performing version by Deryck Cooke".
> 
> View attachment 112135
> 
> 
> My records in this set, often played, still boast a high level of quietness as far as surface noise goes, and I can readily enjoy that "sublime moment" to the fullest, for I've never heard it played better (with more depth, clarity, and philosophical oomph) than in the Wyn Morris interpretation.
> 
> It's a moment near the ending of that great final movement, a meditation of the theme by the strings, several measures which, in the otherwise sparsely sketched-out original score, were indicated in full by the composer himself. As if he _knew_ that _this_ was the great moment in music. A harp lays down the harmony while the strings sing the theme, leading to a richly scored string passage which nearly takes the breath away. Mahler at his most profound.
> 
> I have long agreed with Bernstein's assessment that the Ninth is Mahler's "farewell" to life (and to the music he knew and loved) and that the lengthy final movement indeed reflects upon these two mysteries of passing -- that of life and that of the music. But I've also long considered that the Tenth is simply a continuation of the story -- music that Mahler had to write because as a lover of life he did not want his final utterance to be the dark throbbings of a dying heartbeat. I've long felt that the Tenth was Mahler's _real_ final statement, one proclaiming that all of the universe is good and that the greatness of the spirit of man lives on well after any individual man's death.
> 
> Mahler marked one section of his symphony "Purgatorio". As a reader of Dante I can understand this thinking. Both Wagner and Liszt knew that Dante's "Paradiso" was beyond musical expression, but not the "Purgatorio", that realm of final cleansing beyond which waits the ineffable heavenly spheres. Those closing measures of the Mahler Tenth seem so to reflect the final steps in Purgatory as one gets his first glimpse of the sublime that lies ahead, one even beyond the skills of Mahler to express (though he does a pretty good attempt in his Fourth Symphony, one could argue!).
> 
> I will always rank this "unfinished" symphony high on my subjective lists of great music. Like Schubert's 8th or Bach's final Contrapunctus XIV of his _Art of Fugue_, such music must remain unfinished, for the only place where greater completion and more sublime sound is possible lies in a realm beyond that of us mere humans. This is truly music of the spheres, music of the universe, and, in the instance that I am philosophically wrong, music of Heaven and of God.


Revisiting this thread your post struck me as wonderfully phrased, thanks for your input. I will look out for that 'moment' in the last movement next time I listen.


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## flamencosketches

Still working on finding love for the completed Mahler 10th. I've only heard the Rattle/Berlin, and I may get more out of it with every listen, but it still sounds almost unbearably spare. I'm going to try another performance. There's a record store nearby that has the Wigglesworth/BBC recording so whenever they reopen I'll run down there and grab it, I think they had it priced at $2. Also sounds like the Dausgaard/Seattle is a must-hear so I will look out for good deals on that.

Setting aside the Cooke version for a moment, I wanted to ask the people of the forum: what's your favorite recording of the standalone Adagio? I listened to the Sinopoli the other day and enjoyed it. Love the Bernstein/New York. And I just found out that no less than George Szell recorded it, as well as the Purgatorio, so I will have to hear that immediately.


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## mbhaub

The Wigglesworth is really very good. I heard him do it live in Los Angeles and it was terrific.

For the stand-alone Adagio, Bernstein with NY is exceptionally good, but so is Szell. And Inbal, too.


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## starthrower

flamencosketches said:


> Setting aside the Cooke version for a moment, I wanted to ask the people of the forum: what's your favorite recording of the standalone Adagio?


I love this music so much that I can listen to any recording. But several years ago when I was heavily into my hardcore modernist phase and struggling to appreciate Mahler, it was the Boulez DG recording that first broke through and hit me like a ton of bricks. I don't know if Boulez had anything to do with it because at that point I wasn't really conscious of the myriad Mahler interpretations. It was purely the power of the music hitting me at my receptive moment. After that epiphany I was launched on my journey to absorb all of Mahler's magnificent works.


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## flamencosketches

starthrower said:


> I love this music so much that I can listen to any recording. But several years ago when I was heavily into my hardcore modernist phase and struggling to appreciate Mahler, it was the Boulez DG recording that first broke through and hit me like a ton of bricks. I don't know if Boulez had anything to do with it because at that point I wasn't really conscious of the myriad Mahler interpretations. It was purely the power of the music hitting me at my receptive moment. After that epiphany I was launched on my journey to absorb all of Mahler's magnificent works.


Interesting, so it was the 10th that first broke through with Mahler for you? Do you like the completions, or prefer the Adagio standalone? I am curious to hear Boulez's recording now. Looks like he did it with the Clevelanders. Makes me wonder how he compares with Szell in this work with the same orchestra.


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## starthrower

I don't remember why, but the first two Boulez/Mahler CDs I bought were the Lieder discs. One of which includes the Adagio. So I just made it a point to sit down and listen closely and that movement just bowled me over. When that rapturous, yearning theme comes in after the intro it just sweeps me away. I do have one complete recording by Dausgaard/Seattle but I've listened to it only a couple times. Once last year and I thought it was pretty good but I really need to listen a few more times to form a more concrete opinion. If I decide I really like it, maybe I'll try another version such as Simon Rattle.


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## Josquin13

My favorite recordings of Mahler's completed 10th are Riccardo Chailly/Berlin RSO, Eliahu Inbal/Frankfurt S.O., and Sir Simon Rattle/Bournemouth S.O. (Rattle's more recent Berlin recording may be better, but I doubt it--because this is one of the finest Mahler recordings that Rattle has made, IMO).

Chailly: 





















Inbal: 




Rattle 1: 




Among stand alone versions of the Adagio, the 1952 world premiere recording by Mahler's protégé, F. Charles Adler, is probably the most authentic, idiomatic recording that I've heard (although Adler doesn't use Cooke's completion, which hadn't been made at the point). (Alma Mahler even wrote the program notes to Adler's LP recording.)






My second pick would be a conductor that Adler greatly influenced, Leonard Bernstein, in New York:


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## Knorf

Everyone who likes the completed Mahler 10 really should check out the Seattle Symphony/Dausgaard recording, on their own label. I highly recommend it. Taken as a whole, it's become my favorite recording of the symphony.


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## Becca

^^ Seconded....


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## Simplicissimus

My favorite Mahler symphonies are Nos. 1, 2, 6, and 10, and das Lied von der Erde. Others have written astutely about great recordings of the Cooke completion of No. 10, and I’m particularly looking forward to listening to Seattle perform it. I have two CDs of it: Gielen 2005 and Ormandy 1965. I added these to my collection after quite a lot of comparative listening. The only possibly interesting point I have to add to this discussion is that the Ormandy disc, on Sony, has astonishingly good sound quality. The master tape recording had to be great, and the Sony digital remastering worked out extremely successfully.


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## Becca

The issue with the Ormandy which, IMO, takes it out of consideration, is that it was of an first version of the Cooke completion. Subsequent to that Cooke was permitted access to the all of Mahler's sketches, many of which had not previously been published, which resulted in a considerable revision of the work done between 1966 and 1972 (Cooke II). Given the oft stated argument that Mahler would have changed much had he finished it, I prefer to at least listen to something that represents all of what he had managed to do.


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## MrMeatScience

There's a Cooke III as well, which incorporates changes (mostly orchestration) Cooke made at the end of his life after having heard Cooke II. The differences are generally subtle, but that's the most up-to-date version.


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## Becca

^^ Yes, some of them done by the Matthews brothers after Cooke's death.


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## bisque

Becca said:


> The issue with the Ormandy which, IMO, takes it out of consideration, is that it was of an first version of the Cooke completion. Subsequent to that Cooke was permitted access to the all of Mahler's sketches, many of which had not previously been published, which resulted in a considerable revision of the work done between 1966 and 1972 (Cooke II). Given the oft stated argument that Mahler would have changed much had he finished it, I prefer to at least listen to something that represents all of what he had managed to do.


Nothing will, for me, ever take the Ormandy out of consideration. The playing alone would keep it in consideration, the conducting is Ormandy at his best and I will never be an Ormandy basher, and the recording itself is absolutely brilliantly engineered, a classic example of how incredible Columbia stereo was back then. I listen to it more than any other, frankly, and I like many of the later recordings and performing versions. But Ormandy was my introduction to this symphony and whether it's Cooke's first attempt or not is not important to me. The magic is in the music and Ormandy and his orchestra are magic.


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## CnC Bartok

Becca said:


> ^^ Seconded....


Thirded, if there's such a thing....best recent performance I know of.

There's also the chamber version, on BIS. I really enjoyed it, but then again I like Schoenberg's Lied von der Erde too


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## arkadinho

Having not been familiar with Mahler 10th completions beforehand besides Wyn Morris's Cook version I just finished listening to 9 Cooks, 2 Mazzettis, 2 Barshais and one of Carpenter, Wheeler, Gamzou, Samale-Mazzuca and the chamber version by Castelletti. Took me a bit. At times it felt as though I was writing a Mahler's symphony myself lol But today finally hooray hooray! 

My outright winner was Mazzetti. I thought his version to be the most exciting somewhat reminiscent of the 5th and the 6th while Cook's version was more similar to the 3rd and the 9th. My favorite Cook was a more gentle Rattle with BPO. I also liked Barshai's version which is more in the vein of Mazzetti's. 

Lopez-Cobos's Mazzetti would be the one I'd be listening to the most ...that is unless I change my mind in the future


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## MarkW

arkadinho said:


> Having not been familiar with Mahler 10th completions beforehand besides Wyn Morris's Cook version I just finished listening to 9 Cooks, 2 Mazzettis, 2 Barshais and one of Carpenter, Wheeler, Gamzou, Samale-Mazzuca and the chamber version by Castelletti. Took me a bit. At times it felt as though I was writing a Mahler's symphony myself lol But today finally hooray hooray!
> 
> My outright winner was Mazzetti. I thought his version to be the most exciting somewhat reminiscent of the 5th and the 6th while Cook's version was more similar to the 3rd and the 9th. My favorite Cook was a more gentle Rattle with BPO. I also liked Barshai's version which is more in the vein of Mazzetti's.
> 
> Lopez-Cobos's Mazzetti would be the one I'd be listening to the most ...that is unless I change my mind in the future


Seconded .


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## CnC Bartok

I don't know of anyone has heard this new one yet? Personally I found it immensely satisfying, Lack of histrionics, but brings out the details, and as a "symphonic whole" really worked for me. I wouldn't have had Vanska down as a Mahlerian to be honest.....


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## DarkAngel

Any comments on these two newer releases using Michelle Castelletti's version for scaled down "chamber orchestra" size of 25? The scoring is for 15 strings but solo instruments for each other section


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## CnC Bartok

^^^ The one on the right isn't being released for a couple of weeks. 

I was really very impressed with the Storgards one. A fascinating pared down performing version, beautifully recorded a la BIS, well worth hearing (and I like a lot of Storgards' recordings, although not his Sibelius!) If you have heard the Schoenberg chamber version of Das Lied von der Erde, you might get a vauge idea of what to expect.....

Complements Cooke, doesn't displace him, though.


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## mbhaub

CnC Bartok said:


> I don't know of anyone has heard this new one yet? Personally I found it immensely satisfying, Lack of histrionics, but brings out the details, and as a "symphonic whole" really worked for me. I wouldn't have had Vanska down as a Mahlerian to be honest.....
> 
> View attachment 153816


I wish he was a more consistent Mahlerian! It seems some of these recordings are great, some pretty mediocre and a few terrible. I've heard the 2nd and was very disappointed. But the 7th was pretty good! I hope they can complete the cycle, then in a few years Bis offers a nice, inexpensive boxed set. Until then, I have enough Mahler for now.


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## Kiki

CnC Bartok said:


> I don't know of anyone has heard this new one yet? Personally I found it immensely satisfying, Lack of histrionics, but brings out the details, and as a "symphonic whole" really worked for me. I wouldn't have had Vanska down as a Mahlerian to be honest.....
> 
> View attachment 153816


Interesting. I need to listen to it again. Have to admit I've seldom been a fan of Mr. Vänskä's ways of things... I think his M7 is not bad though.


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## Kiki

DarkAngel said:


> Any comments on these two newer releases using Michelle Castelletti's version for scaled down "chamber orchestra" size of 25? The scoring is for 15 strings but solo instruments for each other section


I commented on Storgårds' 10th earlier on in this thread (link). On the other hand, Gale's 10th (already available as a digital download, but the CD seems not yet) sounds even more chamber-like than Storgårds', I suppose mainly because of the size of the string section, where Storgårds had 14 bows, Gale only 5!

I think the drum in the Castelletti edition is especially shattering. The piano and the accordion are also great touches.


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## Enthusiast

CnC Bartok said:


> I don't know of anyone has heard this new one yet? Personally I found it immensely satisfying, Lack of histrionics, but brings out the details, and as a "symphonic whole" really worked for me. I wouldn't have had Vanska down as a Mahlerian to be honest.....
> 
> View attachment 153816


I love it, too. But I am not so surprised as there are a couple of other Mahler symphonies in the Vanska series that I have also rated highly (certainly, 7, but I have also enjoyed his 4 and 5). His approach is like no other and can seem too careful but that can pay dividends if you are tuned in (he is a conductor who tends to make me do something I never force myself to do: concentrate!) and he doesn't short change on the big moments. Certainly it is often not what many Mahler fans with set expectations will find easy.


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## Enthusiast

Dausgaard's 10 is also a really good one. He is a conductor who I am often finding excellent these days. His more controversial super-fast style has been tempered considerably and he is a great communicator.


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## Ulfilas

My choices:

Adagio only recording: Boulez, Cleveland Orchestra (DG)

Carpenter Completion: Zinman, Zurich Tonhalle Orchestra (RCA)

Barshai Completion: Barshai, Gustav Mahler Youth Orchestra (Brilliant)


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## RobertJTh

I grew up with (and imprinted on) Rattle with the CBSO, a performance that I still find more convincing in its raw sincerity than his plushy, luxurious Berlin remake.
After that I got my hands on Inbal and Chailly - both pretty good but a tad on the safe side. Which can't be said of Sanderling, who loads every phrase with so much intensity that listening to his performance almost becomes a painful experience (but in a good way).









To me, this recording has never been bettered. I tried Rattle II and Dausgaard, very nicely played, but they don't leave me as emotionally drained at the end as Sanderling.


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## mbhaub

That Sanderling recording is just terrific, and not as well known. He does his own retouchings, mainly regarding the percussion parts. It's one of the greatest 10ths ever put down. And not unexpected: I was lucky enough to hear him live in Los Angeles a couple of times, once with a Bruckner 4th that still is in my head. Too bad he lived on the "bad" side of Germany - what a great conductor.


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