# Which composer would win in a fight!



## Sofronitsky

In the ridiculously unlikely event that all composers were restored to their former health, put in a large-scale ring, and ordered to fight to the death... Whom would you place your money on? 

Mine is on Prokofiev :tiphat:


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## tdc

A few likely tough composers come to mind:

_Penderecki_ - purely for the size advantage.

_Charles Ives_ - would also be quite tough, being very athletic and into football.

_Vaughan Williams_ - fought in WW I so he is probably no wuss either.

_Prokofiev_ - looks kind of like the bad nazi that always wears the black suit on Indiana Jones Raiders of the Lost Ark.

_Liszt_ - looks like one of those pretty boys, the kind you'd love to hate, but you can't really do anything about it, because he is the strong and athletic type too, and he could lay the smack down if he had to.

_Albeniz_ - looks like he used to hang out with ruffians in saloons.


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## Air

^THIS GUY.


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## Sofronitsky

tdc said:


> _Albeniz_


I do not believe that this man would make a safe bet.


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## tdc

^ Yeah Albeniz would be my dark horse, the quiet guy you'd never expect. But he is really probably pretty ripped under that suit. 
He grew up on the streets, he could be tougher than he looks.


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## Sofronitsky

tdc said:


> ^ Yeah Albeniz would be my dark horse, the quiet guy you'd never expect. But he is really probably pretty ripped under that suit.
> *He grew up on the streets*, he could be tougher than he looks.


:lol::lol::lol:

I think 'he grew up on the streets' is the most hilarious description for a classical composer. They should put that on his CDs, it would bring in a whole new audience.


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## Art Rock

George Butterworth (military cross WW1).


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## Art Rock

Alberic Magnard, who killed a German soldier before his death, defending his home.


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## Sid James

I remember reading about an Italian (Renaissance or Baroque?) composer who was killed by hired assasins in a duel type of contest. Obviously he could put up a fight, but he didn't win in the end...


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## jhar26

Salieri. He would murder them! :lol:


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## tdc

I've always thought of J.S. Bach as more of the 'lover than a fighter' type (although there is a story about a school fight of his on his wiki page).

Bach's dad however looks like he could just lose it on someone if he had to:










Johann Ambrosius Bach


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## Air

Re: Albeniz. I don't think anyone should count this guy out. As a child, he would constantly run away from home to the casinos in town, and his parents would have to call the police to force him back. At age 12, he made a successful escapade from Spain, legend says to Buenos Aires in Argentina. Begging on the streets and sleeping in churches he finally got some people interested in his playing and rose to become one of the most popular concerto pianists throughout all of South America. Rich and famous, he then moved via Cuba to the United States. He made a notorious reputation for himself in post-Gold Rush California, playing in saloons and carrying baggage for passengers aboard ships. But it's true that even at a young age he had all the toughness in him to knock out any ruffian that stood in his path. I definitely wouldn't mess with this guy.


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## Kieran

Wagner would be more of a torturer than a fighter. He'd have his opponent captured and dragged screaming up to his fortress in Bayreuth. I bet Beethoven had a huge, violent temper, but he wouldn't hear the other guy sneaking up behind him. Obviously, Mozart and Schubert would be too sissy, and Bach would be above the fray.

I don't know, maybe the toughest would be some crazed, absinthe-guzzling Romantic lunatic? Tchaikovski, in a desperate hissy fit, could do some damage, but he'd harm himself first, so that'd be a win for _somebody_, at least...


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## Sofronitsky

@Air I'm starting to see your point with Albeniz, it was probably the pictures of him in the books I've read that made me typecast him as a sissy

But Prokofiev stood his ground even to Stalin's goons! Once, when called by one of the soviet establishments to condemn new music, he looked the speaker dead in the eye, saying 'What right have you to talk to me like that?'. I also read about an incident in which a pupil and a teacher were playing for him his First Piano Concerto, and during one of the movements he held the teacher by his throat and said 'Idiot! You don't even know how to play!'.
Not to mention the legendary Richter who wrote that he never had many encounters with Prokofiev, because he intimidated him too much. This coming from Sviatoslav Richter, who has quite the intimidating physique himself!

Edit: Remembering your Avatar, I'm probably telling you a bunch of things you already know :lol: I'm guessing you've read Notebooks and Conversations or at least seen The Enigma


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## Sofronitsky

Art Rock said:


> Alberic Magnard, who killed a German soldier before his death, defending his home.


That's very interesting! I think I'll look up some of his works now. It makes quite a comparison to Strauss, who yelled 'I am the composer of the Rosenkavalier!' when American forces were trying to bust down his door.


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## Art Rock

I have his four symphonies (Brilliant Classics box), very worthwhile.


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## Aramis

George Antheil would win because he used to carry a gun with him even to his piano recitals. It's undeniable adventage.


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## regressivetransphobe

Wagner could use his neckbeard like a whip


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## elgar's ghost

With their girth and face fungus I think Oliver Knussen and Harrison Birtwistle would make a pretty impressive 'baddy' wrestling tag-team (if they were a little younger).


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## science

I wouldn't count out Frederick the Great. I never count out a guy with an army.


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## Aramis

regressivetransphobe said:


> Wagner could use his neckbeard like a whip


Scriabin or Elgar could use their moustaches like boars use their tusks.


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## Polednice

I fear that my poor Brahms would probably not be a good one to back...

He'd strut out onto the field with his broad shoulders and big fists, but, just as another composer started towards him, he'd try to demoralise his opponent with his acid tongue. Sure, his adversary would stop momentarily in his tracks and question the worth of his existence, but, before you'd know it, Brahms would be knocked out by an enraged punch and that'd be the end of him.


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## Kieran

I wonder if there's anything in the fact that most of these guys wouldn't last beyond, say, _*nine *_rounds?

They might have plans for a tenth, but they'd be buggered after nine... :tiphat:


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## Serge

Beethoven would rip all of them to pieces with just his temperament!

Yes, take that, Tchaikovsky!


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## Polednice

Of course, we mustn't just consider who would win in the event of fisty-cuffs - Chopin would be the master of chemical warfare, infecting all of his enemies with deadly tuberculosis. He may well be murdered early on, but the slow spread of his vicious disease would eventually see all his opponents lying dead on the battlefield.


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## World Violist

I couldn't see Prokofiev. I bet he was all talk.

Messiaen would call his angry bird army to tear everyone to pieces, so I would give him an upper hand.

I have to say, pre-heart condition Mahler would be a pretty good bet too. He was one solid dude before his heart failed him. As was Brahms, for that matter, before whatever happened to him happened to him.


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## World Violist

Polednice said:


> Of course, we mustn't just consider who would win in the event of fisty-cuffs - Chopin would be the master of chemical warfare, infecting all of his enemies with deadly tuberculosis. He may well be murdered early on, but the slow spread of his vicious disease would eventually see all his opponents lying dead on the battlefield.


And considering the other common cause of death among composers is syphilis...let's just not go there...


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## Huilunsoittaja

World Violist said:


> I couldn't see Prokofiev. I bet he was all talk.


Don't you know Prokofiev did weightlifting like every day? At least when he was younger. And he walked long distances every day. Believe me, I bet he could have beat up anyone quite easily.

There's a reason people who ever met him commented on how much he looked like a prize fighter. Even musical critics watching him smash the piano. 

My money is _always _on Prokofiev.


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## Kieran

Fair bit of consensus growing here for Prokofiev, which is fair enough since _even his name _sounds like an angry Russian oath!


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## World Violist

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Don't you know Prokofiev did weightlifting like every day? At least when he was younger. And he walked long distances every day. Believe me, I bet he could have beat up anyone quite easily.
> 
> There's a reason people who ever met him commented on how much he looked like a prize fighter. Even musical critics watching him smash the piano.
> 
> My money is _always _on Prokofiev.


Alright, I'll give him a chance.

Dimitri Mitropoulos too...he climbed a lot of mountains in his day and everyone commented on his remarkable physical strength. And for the record, yes, he was a composer so I can include him.


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## Serge

Re: _Prokofiev_

Well, he looks like a Putin a bit, and we all know what that guy can do to a fish without his shirt on.


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## Webernite

Alban Berg was a very big guy, but he doesn't look like the fighting type...


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## Huilunsoittaja

Some of you here are making me very angry right now... :lol:

_You won't like me when I'm angry..._ :devil:


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## StlukesguildOhio

You certainly wouldn't want to turn your back on Carlo Gesualdo:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlo_Gesualdo


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## Meaghan

StlukesguildOhio said:


> You certainly wouldn't want to turn your back on Carlo Gesualdo:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlo_Gesualdo


I was just getting ready to chastise people for forgetting Gesualdo, and then I got to the last post. Poo.


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## Meaghan

(Gesualdo wins.)


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## Fsharpmajor

I would put my money on Leif Segerstam any day:


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## Polednice

Fsharpmajor said:


> I would put my money on Leif Segerstam any day:
> 
> View attachment 2138


A chuckly father Christmas? He's the ultimate push-over.


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## Serge

OK, but who of the composers would take off the ring even before the opening gong? Should be quite a bunch...


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## World Violist

Serge said:


> OK, but who of the composers would take off the ring even before the opening gong? Should be quite a bunch...


You mean who would quit first?

Britten.


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## Huilunsoittaja

Serge said:


> OK, but who of the composers would take off the ring even before the opening gong? Should be quite a bunch...


Shostakovich.

"Ohhhh... I'm uh uh not up for it, you know, my glasses, they break easily. So uh, yeah, I'll just--" Mad dash


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## PhillipPark

I think Ravel would be most hesitant to get in the ring...I mean, the man had to stand on a chair to be seen by the orchestra!


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## Polednice

I think Liszt would probably be the first to scarper. He's always been full of the fancy talk, but no action.


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## Nix

Shostakovich of course! The muggles wouldn't know what hit em...


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## Philip

Heitor Villa-Lobos, Brazil


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## Serge

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Shostakovich.
> 
> "Ohhhh... I'm uh uh not up for it, you know, my glasses, they break easily. So uh, yeah, I'll just--" Mad dash


Hahaha, he is quite whimsical in much of his stuff, isn't he?


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## Huilunsoittaja

Serge said:


> Hahaha, he is quite whimsical in much of his stuff, isn't he?


I think if you put any nerdy, sensitive guy with glasses in a life-or-death situation, you get someone like Shostakovich. He was pretty brave, I think, but it was only because he was forced into it. He could make some pretty serious monsters in his head in reaction to life, even if he was a really quiet, sensitive person.

You could look at the question differently, and ask "Who best _survives _a fight?" Then the answer would be Shostakovich.


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## Sofronitsky

Serge said:


> Re: _Prokofiev_
> 
> Well, he looks like a Putin a bit, and we all know what that guy can do to a fish without his shirt on.


No I don't think we all do know what Putin can do to a fish without a shirt on.

@Polednice
I would place Liszt pretty highly on my wager Liszt, after Prokofiev of course. A pianist was once (I think it was Thalberg) so infuriated that Liszt had bettered him in his own 'faux 3-hand' style that he challenged him to a boxing match. Before the match began, Thalberg quit, seeing his opponent's massive physical prowess. Liszt could certainly do some damage, I mean just listen to Totentanz


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## Wicked_one

I'd put my money on Paganini. He had the dark forces of Satan by his side :> Selling your soul to the devil might win you some fights.


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## Aramis

Sofronitsky said:


> No I don't think we all do know what Putin can do to a fish without a shirt on.


Be ashamed of such ignorance.

What Putin without his shirt on can do to a fish:

- Force the fish to lower the price of sausage in her shop
- Force the fish to sign agreement that is in fact bad for her
- Ride a horse with her
- Take her to submarine and go to the bottom of Baikal lake to watch and talk with cankers
- Send her to prison at the end of the world 
- This list is useless, Putin can do anything to anyone anyway


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## Serge

Sofronitsky said:


> No I don't think we all do know what Putin can do to a fish without a shirt on.


Well, be very aware then that, being a former KGB officer, he could not only catch a fish without a shirt on, but make her eat it as well.


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## Sid James

@ Villa Lobos - legend has it (though this has never been substantiated, apparently) that during his travels along the Amazon to study the musics of the tribes, he talked his way out of being eaten by some cannibals! If this is true, no doubt he had a lot of "charisma" and physical presence - as well as being a good talker - to get out of that potentially very sticky situation...


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## Kieran

Sofronitsky said:


> That's very interesting! I think I'll look up some of his works now. It makes quite a comparison to Strauss, who yelled 'I am the composer of the Rosenkavalier!' when American forces were trying to bust down his door.


I think Strauss must have been very devious, then. I imagine the American forces being confused at such a cry, and remaining outside his door, chomping on cigars, uncertain of whether or not to proceed...


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## An Die Freude

Liszt could just wrap his hands round people's heads and crush them.


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## pjang23

:lol: This thread is a riot: http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=28467.0

Some highlights:


> Finally an important topic...
> 
> Which was the one that got so fat he could barely reach the keyboard? Was the Haydn or Handel. That would have to be taken into account.
> 
> I don't think it would be Mozart of Chopin.  Too frail.
> 
> Now Hindemith. I think he's got that bulldog element about him that might give him the edge.
> 
> Mousorgsky. If he's drunk, he's not going to feel the punches and could go on and on. That's not something to take lightly.
> 
> Then there might be some unknown asian composer. Ninja-like.
> 
> The early Greeks. Stones and things.
> 
> And don't forget the monks. You never know how much training they might have being isolated like that.
> 
> I still keep thinking Beethoven would pretty tough though. He'd have that inner drive, the spirit to go on.
> 
> I bet John Cage would say he was fighting while he just stands there.
> 
> *Schoenberg and the others would be careful to fight with specific moves and never repeat them in the same order. They would try fighitng upside down or fighting backwards somehow, possibly declaring a winner before the fight even starts.*
> 
> Ives would participate in several fights at once. The different fights would take place in different styles.
> 
> Several other unknown composers would watch the well known composers and copy their moves.
> 
> You'd have to watch out for composers after the 1830's. They use more brass.
> 
> Commerical composers probably wouldn't fight unless it was part of their composer's union contract.
> 
> Some poor, unknown, broke composers would fight "just for the experience."





> Schoenberg and his second Vienesse "posse" would also be able to hit in in sever unexpected place, seeming random, but actually very controlled. *They meet their match when they fight against composers who are really just throwing random punches*... although some of them have to throw dice to see what punches they should throw while other consult astrological charts.
> 
> Some composers would make up their own style of fighting, or even redefine what a "fight" actually is. "Look at me! I'm fighting with my elbows in a non-traditional manner! You didn't think that was even possible did you? Now I'm using my fists, but I'm not 'hitting' with them."
> 
> Some composers will invite the audience to directly engage them in combat rather than just fighting their opponent.
> 
> I can't see Debussy or Ravel getting into a fight. Debussy would be off lounging on a hill on a hot summer day. I'm not sure what Ravel would be doing. Maybe if Ravel fought, it wouldn't be an easy fight. His lowest level of fighting would still be pretty tricky.
> 
> Scriabin would be off in the middle east enjoying himself in a temple dedicated to himself, his music, his color-light show. He'd be too busy and into himself to fight.
> 
> Now Wagner. I could see Wagner being very intimidating. Just one look. I'd like to see Wagner go up against Beethoven. That might be an even match. Imagine that.
> 
> Mahler put up a fight, get stabbed in the heart, but continue to fight even though it's painfully obvious he's going to die. There would be a lot of suffering and it would a take a long time, but he would die in the end. Angels would come down and Mahler himself would have predicted that he'd lose the fight. Even with the sweet release of death, there would still be a lingering doubt about everything and the world. Those present at the fight would saw it was long and drawn out and just a bunch of motion, but later "fight observers" would find significant meaning in it all.
> 
> Bernstein would really get into his fighting and enjoy himself. Any watching watching or even the opponent would enjoy the show.
> 
> Bruckner would drag the fight out. It would very long and would invoke God a lot.
> 
> Bach would work very hard at his fighting. He would travel great distances on foot just to fight. His fighting would appear to be simple but have a lot of thought behind it. There would be hidden meanings behind some of his moves. And somehow, he'd manage to have a few more kids during the fight. The kids would also join in during the fight because they like to things as a family.
> 
> I think Liszt would kick ***. He put up a good show and would have a lot of technical skills. People would argue whether he really had any heart or spirit in his fighting though and that it's all just for show. But I don't think many would defeat Liszt. If it's the old Liszt, he might give you last rights or pray for you after he knocks he out.
> 
> Bartok would study the fighting style of the country folk and then bring that into the city.
> 
> Grainger would actually record fighting among the country folk. You'd have to watch Grainger though because he might bring whips and chains to the fight. If he ever invites you over to his house for a special fighting session with some of his friend, be vary wary, unless you're into that sort of thing.
> 
> Schumann. I don't about him. He would probably break a finger during the fight though, I know that. He'd be very rhythmic about his fighting. Clara would probably have to step in to do his fighting.
> 
> Brahms would fight in a style similar to Beethoven but add his own things. It might take him twenty years to actually get around to fighting you. You'd have to be careful with Brahms though. He might steal your girlfriend during the fight. Unless he actually ended up fighting your girlfriend. Roll Eyes Brahms would probably always fight by himself. He wouldn't have a group of close friends around to cheer for him.
> 
> Gershwin would be old school, roll-up-your-sleeves, backstreet alley fighting.
> 
> Copland would be down and dirty, western style fighting. He might fling sand in your eyes.
> 
> Schubert would lose. You wouldn't even have thought he was in a fight. There was no one there for Schubert to fight. Some little kid would tell you over and over that Schubert was going to lose, but you wouldn't take him seriously until it was too late and he had already lost.
> 
> I can't see Mozart being much of a fighter. He would travel around a lot though and his father would be his coach. Mozart would train with his sister, although his sister would not actually fight much in public. He would fight young. People would be amazed to see such a young toddler out fighting. He might even bring cymbals into the fight because he'd seen the Turks do that. A Jannisary band would march out before the fight. Mozart would die in the ring though and people say it was Salieri would defeated him. After the fight, no one would be able to find Mozart's body. Mozart would attempt to get paid to fight but wouldn't be very successful.
> 
> Beethoven would get paid to fight and would earn a living off it and join the ranks of the rich and famous. Say what you want to Beethoven during the fight though. He would never respond. If you got pinned and in an headlock, he might put his ear right up your face so he could hear you screaming.
> 
> Handel would be killed during the fight. He'd get paid to fight though. People would pass around his head for centuries.
> 
> Lully would punch himself during the fight and eventually from his self-inflicted injury.
> 
> Benjamin Brittain and Edward Elgar would fight according to the Queen's rules. Brittain would explain each type and demonstrate for the children in the audience. Elgar would shout out letters that few people knew true meaning of during the fight. Even later people would still not know what the heck he was talking about. Elgar would not be someone to invite to graduation cermony as he'd try to engage the graduates in a fight. Most members of the audience wouldn't realize a fight was actually going on during the graduation until halfway through the fight.
> 
> Kent Kennan and Walter Piston would be around after the fight to explain what all the moves were and what they meant to anyone who cared to go that in depth into things. They might bring up ideas from Fux but then some people would think they weren't talking about fighting at all anymore at that point.
> 
> Most people wouldn't care to see composers fight though. They would prefer to Britanny Spears and Madonna fight instead. Those two would not actually be fighting themselves and rather would mime fighting while drinking softdrinks products especially apparent in certain places druing the fight. Any video of the their fighting would have the latest technical innovations applied to it and it would appear flawless. While people would pay great amounts of money to see those two fight live, a huge amount of people would illegally download copies of their fight over the internet. Spears would carry her baby around during the fight (head shaved of course for the fight) and would be heavily critized for doing that, while Madonna would be lauded as paving the way for women to break into fighting more. Madonna would have an entourage of fit men dressed in leather supporting her. A lot of men would watch the fight, not really caring who won or lost.
> 
> John Williams would be very cool to watch fight. He would "the force," be able to use light sabers, be able to fly around on bicycle or a broomstick, and could fight like a cowboy but in the style of the late Romantic composers. Whether it was a fight for good or evil, you know it would have a very cool style about it.
> 
> John Thompson would teach children to fight. He would start by having them make a fist with five fingers. Suzuki would teach children to fight by having it be part of a loving, nurturing family environment. Suzuki's fighting children would be impressive but might have no clue what they heck they're doing. They're just imitating what they have seen. Parent would have to present at each fight, sometimes demonstrating fighting techniques to the students. If the children ever show signs of fatigue during the fight, such as yawning, then the fight immediately stops. Children in the public schools would fight a lot but not at a very high level. Most would not fight again after high school.
> 
> Dang... This stuff sounds good, at least to me. Like that book about the composers, I forget the title now. I should publish this stuff. Make money.
> 
> © 2008 Bob. These thread postings. Technically, I believe once I post this, it becomes copyrighted whether I actually submit official paperwork or not. Or maybe I could just email this post to myself...





> Yes, Glass would be critized for always fighting the same way. His opponent might not always be sure whether Glass was alive or dead. If you've ever seen Glass fight live, then you know at periodica intervals he'll hit his opponent by leaning his entire upper body foward in an attack with his head.


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## PhillipPark

"*Bach would work very hard at his fighting. He would travel great distances on foot just to fight.* His fighting would appear to be simple but have a lot of thought behind it. There would be hidden meanings behind some of his moves. *And somehow, he'd manage to have a few more kids during the fight.* The kids would also join in during the fight because they like to things as a family."

:lol:

I enjoyed the bit with Debussy as well...somehow though, I think rather than lounging on a hill, he'd be tip-toeing around, chatting up the wives of whoever was fighting


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## amfortas

Nobody's mentioned the Master Tactician: Stravinsky would change his style every round and confuse the hell out of his opponents!


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## Wicked_one

Anyone here watched Time Squad? Some really funny cartoons with a kid and a robot that were traveling back in time to "repair" history.

There was this episode in which they portrayed Beethoven as a a pro-wrestler fighting other classical musicians turned wrestlers.. His name was none other than Ludwig van Bone-Crusher. 

Beware of the Crusher...


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## Sofronitsky

Sciarrino would make annoying noises until his opponents gave up


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## altiste

My first teacher (1981)(martial arts that is, not composition!!)


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