# Why are there only seven letter-names for notes?



## millionrainbows

Why are there only seven letter-names for notes, A-B-C-D-E-F-G, and yet there are twelve notes? Watch out, it's a trick question.


----------



## Woodduck

Only scale members get their own names. I don't think that's unfair to chromatics, though they may be nursing hurt feelings.


----------



## EdwardBast

Letter symbols were developed by medieval people using and theorizing about diatonic modal music. Of all the systems of letter notation used in early didactic texts to illustrate diatonic musical examples, those using the first seven letters of the alphabet proved most popular and efficient. Diatonic patterns predominated for centuries, so the seven letter names remained the basis for notation. Also, seven letter notation readily accommodated the solfege systems that were developing concurrently in choirs and singing schools.


----------



## SixFootScowl

It is a huge mystery to me. The whole of western music seems to have been built on an artificial construct. But I like it, so am glad someone thought it up, put it together, figured it out (whichever is applicable). But it does tend to make it rather difficult to understand music theory.


----------



## Woodduck

SixFootScowl said:


> It is a huge mystery to me. The whole of western music seems to have been built on an artificial construct. But I like it, so am glad someone thought it up, put it together, figured it out (whichever is applicable). But it does tend to make it rather difficult to understand music theory.


How could music NOT be an "art"-ificial construct?


----------



## tdc

I don't consider the way music is constructed as completely artificial, it is based off of natural harmonic properties relating to mathematical concepts derived from Pythagoras and the overtone series. Like the number Pi our musical system cannot be completely specific only approximated. We must compromise these numbers to a degree to make our system work. I think this is reflective of the fact we live in an imperfect world, but to say that these rules or constructs are completely arbitrary or artificial, I believe is false.


----------



## Woodduck

tdc said:


> I don't consider the way music is constructed as completely artificial, it is based off of natural harmonic properties relating to mathematical concepts derived from Pythagoras and the overtone series. Like the number Pi our musical system cannot be completely specific only approximated. We must compromise these numbers to a degree to make our system work. I think this is reflective of the fact we live in an imperfect world, but to say that these rules or constructs are completely arbitrary or artificial, I believe is false.


Music has roots in perceptions of nature and in the way human cognitive processes and emotions are structured, so I agree that it isn't completely artificial. It seems unlikely that music would even exist if it didn't have such roots. But different types of music build on these natural foundations in such varied ways that I think we can say that musical _styles_ or _systems_ are predominantly artificial: they're collectively "invented" over time in particular cultural contexts. "Artificial" needn't imply "arbitrary."


----------



## EdwardBast

tdc said:


> I don't consider the way music is constructed as completely artificial, it is based off of natural harmonic properties relating to mathematical concepts derived from Pythagoras and the overtone series. Like the number Pi our musical system cannot be completely specific only approximated. We must compromise these numbers to a degree to make our system work. I think this is reflective of the fact we live in an imperfect world, but to say that these rules or constructs are completely arbitrary or artificial, I believe is false.


I agree, although its naturalness for me also seems likely to be an artifact of its relationship to human speech performatively, structurally, and physiologically. A being capable of structuring coherent utterances and modulating tone and timbre in the creation of speech is inevitably going to play with those capabilities. The urge to sing would be irresistible. Or, as in the case of the lizard people of Proxima Centauri-B, whose vocal apparatus offers little scope for tonal language, the urge to create complex rhythmic patterns of clicks, pops, and whistles.


----------



## hammeredklavier

makes it easier to notate and work with. Say if you changed the names to give each of the 12 tones a different alphabet:

A -> A
A#/Bb -> B
B -> C 
C -> D
C#/Db -> E
D -> F
D#/Eb -> G
E -> H
F -> I
F#/Gb -> J
G -> K
G#/Ab -> L

instead of writing
"C major scale" = C, D, E, F, G, A, B
...
"A flat major scale" = Ab, Bb, C, Db, Eb, F, G
...
"E major scale" = E, F#, G#, A, B, C#, D#

you would have to write:
"C major scale" = D, F, H, I, K, A, C
...
"A flat major scale" = L, B, D, E, G, I, K
...
"E major scale" = H, J, L, A, C, E, G

The same reason why there are only seven colors in a rainbow: red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo and violet.
even if there are million rainbows, it changes nothing. They'll be all red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo and violet.



millionrainbows said:


> Watch out, *it's a trick question*.


----------



## hammeredklavier

Woodduck said:


> How could music NOT be an "art"-ificial construct?


How could Moz-"art" NOT be "art"?


----------



## senza sordino

millionrainbows said:


> Why are there only seven letter-names for notes, A-B-C-D-E-F-G, and yet there are twelve notes? Watch out, it's a trick question.


I don't know, but the number seven has had a special meaning since the beginnings of human civilization.

Seven days of the week.
Christ spoke seven words from the cross
Seven celestial objects in the ancient world (Sun, Moon and five planets)
Seven deadly sins
Seven virtues
Seven colours
Seven Wonders of the World
Seven hills of Rome
Seven Dwarfs
The Magnificent Seven

But I don't know specifically the answer to your question.


----------



## mikeh375

If you count the notes from f to b chromatically, you get the number seven....uh oh.


----------



## Woodduck

mikeh375 said:


> If you count the notes from f to b chromatically, you get the number seven....uh oh.


Trying to make trouble again, are ya?


----------



## millionrainbows

The seven letter-names for notes are also reflected in the staff, in the way we notate music. The lines and spaces are not consistent, however: In C, the steps E-F and B-C are semitones, while the rest are whole tones. Why is this? Watch out, it's a trick question.


----------



## Guest

millionrainbows said:


> The seven letter-names for notes are also reflected in the staff, in the way we notate music. The lines and spaces are not consistent, however: In C, the steps E-F and B-C are semitones, while the rest are whole tones. Why is this? Watch out, it's a trick question.


I can't remember but I'm pretty sure this point was covered in the book "_*Music Theory for Dummies*_".
https://www.amazon.com/Music-Theory-Dummies-Michael-Pilhofer/dp/1118990943


----------



## millionrainbows

TalkingHead said:


> I can't remember but I'm pretty sure this point was covered in the book "_*Music Theory for Dummies*_".
> https://www.amazon.com/Music-Theory-Dummies-Michael-Pilhofer/dp/1118990943


Ha ha ha! That's good! Does that mean if I learn the CP diatonic system, then I, too, can become a dummy?


----------



## Guest

millionrainbows said:


> Ha ha ha! That's good! Does that mean if I learn the CP diatonic system, then I, too, can become a dummy?


Actually, _*Music Theory for Dummies*_ is an excellent theory book for beginners, and is well written and well structured. I use it (selectively) for some of my students.


----------



## Guest

millionrainbows said:


> The seven letter-names for notes are also reflected in the staff, in the way we notate music. The lines and spaces are not consistent, however: In C, the steps E-F and B-C are semitones, while the rest are whole tones. Why is this? *Watch out, it's a trick question*.


OK, a trick question. Now stop farting about and tell us.


----------



## Luchesi

TalkingHead said:


> OK, a trick question. Now stop farting about and tell us.


----------



## millionrainbows

Luchesi said:


>


It's a link to Harry Connick Jr's online piano lessons. Actually, I'd rather learn from him than many of the CP teachers out there. There was a PBS show of his trio "Live In Paris", and he's a good jazz pianist. He sounds a little like Thelonious Monk.


----------



## Luchesi

millionrainbows said:


> It's a link to Harry Connick Jr's online piano lessons. Actually, I'd rather learn from him than many of the CP teachers out there. There was a PBS show of his trio "Live In Paris", and he's a good jazz pianist. He sounds a little like Thelonious Monk.


Connick Jr.? I opened the URL different ways, a few times, and I never get Harry. Maybe it's in your cache?

Yes, his jazz is easy to play. I like that.

added:
is anyone else getting Harry Connick Jr.?


----------



## millionrainbows

Luchesi said:


> Connick Jr.? I opened the URL different ways, a few times, and I never get Harry. Maybe it's in your cache?
> 
> Yes, his jazz is easy to play. I like that.
> 
> added:
> is anyone else getting Harry Connick Jr.?


Whoops! I guess it was an ad.


----------



## Woodduck

I have very little jazz in my collection, but I have a Harry Connick Jr. CD titled, oddly, "Harry Connick Jr." It's dreamy stuff.


----------



## SixFootScowl

TalkingHead said:


> I can't remember but I'm pretty sure this point was covered in the book "_*Music Theory for Dummies*_".
> https://www.amazon.com/Music-Theory-Dummies-Michael-Pilhofer/dp/1118990943


I wonder if that is a book even I could understand. I seem to be a music theory dunce.


----------



## Luchesi

SixFootScowl said:


> I wonder if that is a book even I could understand. I seem to be a music theory dunce.


What's theoretical about music theory is how and why we humans have developed our affinity for the elements of music theory, the intervals and the note constellations (chords). It's probably what has been put forward by science, BUT it might be aliens, OR it might all be Last Tuesdayism. So it's theoretical, and not all verifiable in any case..

More to your question, I think the best way to learn music theory with the help of such a book is to pick 20 of your favorite pop songs and get acquainted with the music theory concepts in them that made them popular (or at least enticing to you). It remains a mystery to a certain degree, but it's a fulfilling experience.


----------



## Luchesi

senza sordino said:


> I don't know, but the number seven has had a special meaning since the beginnings of human civilization.
> 
> Seven days of the week.
> Christ spoke seven words from the cross
> Seven celestial objects in the ancient world (Sun, Moon and five planets)
> Seven deadly sins
> Seven virtues
> Seven colours
> Seven Wonders of the World
> Seven hills of Rome
> Seven Dwarfs
> The Magnificent Seven
> 
> But I don't know specifically the answer to your question.


About seven days in each phase of the Moon was so helpful for ancient people. And the ancients were interested that the Moon moved through 3 houses of the zodiac (with their threesome attributes) during every week. This must be significant?

..the effect of the flu was believed to be caused by the influence of the *stars.*


----------



## Luchesi

Years ago I heard a musician friend say that A 220 Hz is the middle of the male singing range and 440 Hz is the middle of the female singing range. Two octave ranges with the comfortable A's for each gender in the exact middle.

Anybody?


----------



## millionrainbows

The scales which have maximum intervallic variety (no repeat intervals) are six-note scales. After that, from 7 to 12, redundancy begins creeping in.

Seven is also a prime number, considered by some gamblers and dice-throwers to be lucky.


----------



## Luchesi

millionrainbows said:


> The scales which have maximum intervallic variety (no repeat intervals) are six-note scales. After that, from 7 to 12, redundancy begins creeping in.
> 
> Seven is also a prime number, considered by some gamblers and dice-throwers to be lucky.


Yeah, six times the fundamental is difficult for the human ear to discern (from five times the fundamental, so we get the ambiguous minor third). Seven times the fundamental is probably impossible.


----------



## Bwv 1080

hammeredklavier said:


> makes it easier to notate and work with. Say if you changed the names to give each of the 12 tones a different alphabet:


Modern theory uses base 12 nomenclature: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A B with no fixed '0'


----------



## millionrainbows

Luchesi said:


> Yeah, six times the fundamental is difficult for the human ear to discern (from five times the fundamental, so we get the ambiguous minor third). Seven times the fundamental is probably impossible.


It has nothing to do with hearing harmonics. It's just a simple process of addition. C-G-D-A-E, rearranged to an in-octave scale, is C-D-E-G-A, the major pentatonic scale. If we go further, adding B, we get our first minor second. If we go one further, adding F, we get our first tritone.


----------



## Luchesi

millionrainbows said:


> It has nothing to do with hearing harmonics. It's just a simple process of addition. C-G-D-A-E, rearranged to an in-octave scale, is C-D-E-G-A, the major pentatonic scale. If we go further, adding B, we get our first minor second. If we go one further, adding F, we get our first tritone.


I assumed that the 10th to the 11th was the first minor second.


----------



## millionrainbows

Luchesi said:


> I assumed that the 10th to the 11th was the first minor second.


You better count again. This time, start on zero, not one.


----------



## Luchesi

millionrainbows said:


> You better count again. This time, start on zero, not one.


Okay, we're talking about two different things. You're talking about E to F in the C scale, which is a human construct.


----------



## Owen David

I agree aritficial doesn't imply "arbitrary". 

This is a philosophical question really. I tend to the view that music, like mathematics, is a social construct. It doesn't "exist" in nature. But clearly there is a relation with the natural world. With maths, we can see that there are things (e.g. atoms) that correspond well to our social construct of numbers and that is why maths is such a powerful tool. With music, in a less precise manner, there is correspondence with our physical body systems e.g. heartbeat, appreciation of the passage of time and the sound world we live in. I would argue as well that it somehow, in ways we don't really understand, mirrors our consciousness.


----------



## millionrainbows

Owen David said:


> I agree aritficial doesn't imply "arbitrary".
> 
> This is a philosophical question really. I tend to the view that music, like mathematics, is a social construct. It doesn't "exist" in nature. But clearly there is a relation with the natural world. With maths, we can see that there are things (e.g. atoms) that correspond well to our social construct of numbers and that is why maths is such a powerful tool. With music, in a less precise manner, there is correspondence with our physical body systems e.g. heartbeat, appreciation of the passage of time and the sound world we live in. I would argue as well that it somehow, in ways we don't really understand, mirrors our consciousness.


Well, I'd say that mathematics is a thought-construct. Plato's "ideals" are extrapolated from previous experience.

Music is much more connected to physics.


----------



## Eclectic Al

I always guessed it was because (1/2) to the power of 4 is roughly the same as (2/3) to the power of 7. Hence, 7.


----------



## Barbebleu

Luchesi said:


> Connick Jr.? I opened the URL different ways, a few times, and I never get Harry. Maybe it's in your cache?
> 
> Yes, his jazz is easy to play. I like that.
> 
> added:
> is anyone else getting Harry Connick Jr.?


Harry Connick Jr. is to jazz what Herod was to child-minding! Oy vay! He is a popular music singer, nothing more. If he was working in the forties he would be a "crooner". Heaven forfend.


----------



## millionrainbows

Barbebleu said:


> Harry Connick Jr. is to jazz what Herod was to child-minding! Oy vay! He is a popular music singer, nothing more. If he was working in the forties he would be a "crooner". Heaven forfend.


----------



## BabyGiraffe

millionrainbows said:


> It has nothing to do with hearing harmonics. It's just a simple process of addition. C-G-D-A-E, rearranged to an in-octave scale, is C-D-E-G-A, the major pentatonic scale. If we go further, adding B, we get our first minor second. If we go one further, adding F, we get our first tritone.


CGDAE is basically the syntonic comma, so we can have alternative pentatonic notation, because 5 equal is the smallest meantone tuning. (There exist such note naming in China and Africa, I think.)
3x3x3x3 = 81 (chain of third harmonic)
2x2x2x2 x 5= 80 (chain of octaves and 5th harmonic), 
so in Western music 80/16 (which is equivalent to 5/4 = 2786.313714 cents major 17th) and 81/16 (2807.820003 cents, Pythagorean major third +2 octaves) are considered the same (or 81=80, very funny, but chord progressions don't quite work as smoothly without this tempering).

And I guess 7 note diatonic scale is just two linked pentatonics (built on F and G, giving another pentatonic on C as incidence structure), increasing the amount of major and minor triads by considerable amount.


----------



## millionrainbows

BabyGiraffe said:


> CGDAE is basically the syntonic comma, so we can have alternative pentatonic notation, because 5 equal is the smallest meantone tuning. (There exist such note naming in China and Africa, I think.)
> 3x3x3x3 = 81 (chain of third harmonic)
> 2x2x2x2 x 5= 80 (chain of octaves and 5th harmonic),
> so in Western music 80/16 (which is equivalent to 5/4 = 2786.313714 cents major 17th) and 81/16 (2807.820003 cents, Pythagorean major third +2 octaves) are considered the same (or 81=80, very funny, but chord progressions don't quite work as smoothly without this tempering).
> 
> And I guess 7 note diatonic scale is just two linked pentatonics (built on F and G, giving another pentatonic on C as incidence structure), increasing the amount of major and minor triads by considerable amount.


I hope you're right.


----------



## Luchesi

millionrainbows said:


>


Thanks. I was going to agree wholeheartedly with Barbebieu. We know that what Connick does is not progress in the great jazz tradition. But thanks, now I'm less critical of what he has done. Like I said, it's easy to play, and fun. He's filling a niche, and new listeners can investigate and then go on. For a classical player like me it's an accessible 'style'.

"John "Lofty" Wiseman is a British author and survival consultant, and a former member of the Special Air Service (SAS). After leaving the SAS in 1985, his first book was The SAS Survival Handbook . Lofty has since become a survival consultant, writing a number of other books on the subject,. When he provided survival training to the cast of the 1990 film Memphis Belle, his ability to make food out of unlikely materials inspired cast member Harry Connick Jr. to write Lofty's Roach Souffle."


----------



## MarkW

Back when the diatonic scale was invented, early proto-hominids only had seven fingers.


----------



## HolstThePhone

Is nobody going to bring up "H" (aka B)? Or do we not speak of that here?


----------



## Eclectic Al

Eclectic Al said:


> I always guessed it was because (1/2) to the power of 4 is roughly the same as (2/3) to the power of 7. Hence, 7.


I still think it's because of the mathematical approximation above.


----------



## Luchesi

Eclectic Al said:


> I still think it's because of the mathematical approximation above.


Apropos to that, when you tune a piano, first you tune it acoustically, then you go back and tune the instrument to itself, BUT musically (not acoustically). The second part can be very difficult on expensive pianos and on cheap pianos. Those are the extremes for different reasons.


----------



## RubberDuckie

I am glad someone mentioned "H" because it is important for some musicians to know that in order to read/play music printed in German.

In German, H is B natural and B is Bb... which incidentally came in handy for Bach and he used it as the opening 4 notes of a piece.

In addition to H, Eb is Es (pronounced as "S"). It's a stretch, but some composers took it as the letter "S".

A few composers utilized this German way of spelling pitches as a composition technique.

It's fun if you can spot them.


----------



## Ellis Thompson

"A-H" in German (B flat = "B", B natural = "H") helps to explain:

B-A-C-H motif
D-S-C-H motif ("Dimitri Shostakovich" - D-Eb-C-B)


----------



## Luchesi

RubberDuckie said:


> I am glad someone mentioned "H" because it is important for some musicians to know that in order to read/play music printed in German.
> 
> In German, H is B natural and B is Bb... which incidentally came in handy for Bach and he used it as the opening 4 notes of a piece.
> 
> In addition to H, Eb is Es (pronounced as "S"). It's a stretch, but some composers took it as the letter "S".
> 
> A few composers utilized this German way of spelling pitches as a composition technique.
> 
> It's fun if you can spot them.


How did this come about?


----------



## Bwv 1080

Just think how different Shostakovich’s 8th quartet would have sounded if his parents had named him Boris or Alexei


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

Bwv 1080 said:


> Just think how different Shostakovich's 8th quartet would have sounded if his parents had named him Boris or Alexei


Or Sergei .....


----------



## Georgios

Beause we use 7-note scales. Why the drama?


----------



## Luchesi

Georgios said:


> Beause we use 7-note scales. Why the drama?


I think this thread was a response to another thread in which people were arguing about academic music theory and practical music theory.

Welcome to the forum!


----------



## EdwardBast

Georgios said:


> Beause we use 7-note scales. Why the drama?


Look at other threads started by the OP and you'll likely see a pattern.


----------



## hammeredklavier

Bwv 1080 said:


> Just think how different Shostakovich's 8th quartet would have sounded if his parents had named him Boris or Alexei


other composers' homage to him would also have sounded different





View attachment 137801


----------



## basseux

EdwardBast said:


> Letter symbols were developed by medieval people using and theorizing about diatonic modal music. Of all the systems of letter notation used in early didactic texts to illustrate diatonic musical examples, those using the first seven letters of the alphabet proved most popular and efficient. Diatonic patterns predominated for centuries, so the seven letter names remained the basis for notation. Also, seven letter notation readily accommodated the solfege systems that were developing concurrently in choirs and singing schools.


The solfège system was invented to have names that represent the function of the notes, instead of their absolute pitch.

The goal was to not require a monochord to find the absolute pitch of notated notes, but rather have a relative representation of the music centered around the tonic, since they didn't require to have it sung at a specific pitch.

Therefore they had a reference song, where the first syllabus was the reference to the scale degree.





Ut was later changed to do, and in the begining the tetrachord was movable, and later do was always the tonic, and they added Si.

Now it gets more complicated in some countries because in France the solfegio names where more convenient to sing that letters A B C D E F G, so they started to use do re mi fa sol la si instead of C D E F G A B, around 19 centuary, to the despair of Jean Jacques Rousseau. There was a lot of debates at the time, and academics considered that movable do was something for amateur, becaus professionals preferred fixed do, because they were way past needing mobile do.

So now use fixed solfegio and the original usage of solfegio with mobile do is considered by academics something for begginners and amateurs.


----------



## Bwv 1080

With the chromatic scale there are only two notes with letter names - A and B, representing 10 and 11 in the base-12 numbering system, with an arbitrary starting point of 0


----------

