# Georg Friedrich Händel



## Handel

Mango said:


> Well, there you go, *Handel.* Now's your chance to tell us all about the achievements of Handel and why he's the business. Personally, I find a lot of that all that Baroque pretty flimsy and repetitive. And all those twanging harpsichords get on my nerves too. I'm sure a lot of it could be produced by an electronic synthesiser set on random mode, and sound better.
> 
> It seems to me that this era of classical music is getting so old-fashioned that its days are numbered. Far nicer is the later "Classical" and Romantic era music, with it's far richer colouration, tones, textures, and moods. I say this having just listened to Mendelssohn's wonderful "Reformation" Symphony on period instruments.


Actually, I was joking but why not.

The greatness of Handel can be found if you don't stop at the style of the time. Other composers understood this greatness.

Some quotes (FWIW) to start

Mozart said that "Handel understands effect better than any of us -- when he chooses, he strikes like a thunderbolt... though he often saunters, in the manner of his time, this is always something there".

Haydn: C'est William Shield qui écrit: J'en profitai pour lui demander ce qu'il pensait du choeur "The Nations tremble at the dreadfoul sound" de Josuah. Il me répondit qu'il s'y connaissait depuis longtemps en musique, mais qu'avant d'entendre ce choeur, il n'avait réalisé qu'à moitié la puissance qui pouvait être la sienne et que certainement seul un auteur inspiré avait pu ou pourrait concevoir une oeuvre aussi sublime. (from a Haydn biography)

Translation: It's William Shield who wrote: I asked to Haydn what he was thinking of the "The Nations tremble at the dreadfoul sound" chorus from Josuah. Haydn said that before listening this chorus, he only realized the half of its the power and that only an inspired author could conceive a sublime work like this one.

Beethoven: "Go to him to learn how to achieve great effects, by such simple means" (e.g. Beethoven was amazed by the simplicity/efficacy of Handel's funeral march from Saul).

These quotes sum the main reasons why I like Handel's music.

1- Let's begin why the effects. He had great dramatic gifts. He knew how to use them. For the only purpose of the drama, he often went further than the operatic rules would permit. This dramatic sense can even be seen in his instrumental music.

But more than that, he was a keen psychologist. More than anyone composer during baroque era he develop characters in his operas/oratorios/cantatas who showed nature of human being with his qualities and flaws. His singers were not only high vocal performer (as the public wanted at this time), but characters having real feelings. On this aspect, he was the Mozart of baroque era.

2- Let's talk about his music's power. Many say that they find Handel too pompous. Even if Handel had to compose official music who could sound pompous, many people lack to understand that what they call pomp can be might. (And it starts to the fact that Handel is still unknown. Many people do not go further than Water Music and Fireworks Music. It easy to judge a compose when you only listen those 2 works)


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## Leporello87

Handel said:


> But more than that, he was a keen psychologist. More than anyone composer during baroque era he develop characters in his operas/oratorios/cantatas who showed nature of human being with his qualities and flaws. His singers were not only high vocal performer (as the public wanted at this time), but characters having real feelings. On this aspect, he was the Mozart of baroque era.


Interesting. This is one aspect of Handel I've been hoping to delve into more to understand more deeply. Now, it may be silly to ask this of someone whose forum handle is "Handel" (no pun intended! ), but, at the risk of asking another quasi-combatative "which composer is best" question, which do you find to be the superior "psychologist", Handel or Mozart? What specific examples are there to investigate which especially highlight Handel's abilities to translate character into music?


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## Handel

Leporello87 said:


> Interesting. This is one aspect of Handel I've been hoping to delve into more to understand more deeply. Now, it may be silly to ask this of someone whose forum handle is "Handel" (no pun intended! ), but, at the risk of asking another quasi-combatative "which composer is best" question, which do you find to be the superior "psychologist", Handel or Mozart? What specific examples are there to investigate which especially highlight Handel's abilities to translate character into music?


Here is an example of guilt (In Hercules): Dejanira, Hercules's wife, think he has an affair with a princess and give him a "magic" mantle (given to Dejanira by Hercules enemy, Nessus) who would lead Hercule to love his wife. But this mantle kills Hercules instead (Nessus revenge). In a recitative accompagnato, Dejanira feel guilty and become mad about it.

http://www.box.net/shared/5kz2qe3usn

Here is the text: 
Where shall I fly? Where hide this guilty head?
O fatal error of misguided love!
O cruel Nessus, how art thou reveng'd!
Wretched I am! By me Alcides dies!
These impious hands have sent my injur'd lord
Untimely to the shades! Let me be mad!
Chain me, ye Furies, to your iron beds,
And lash my guilty ghost with whips of scorpions!
See, see, they come! Alecto with her snakes,
Megaera fell, and black Tisiphone!
See the dreadful sisters rise,
Their baneful presence taints the skies!
See the snaky whips they bear!
What yellings rend my tortur'd ear!
Hide me from their hated sight,
Friendly shades of blackest night!
Alas, no rest the guilty find
>From the pursuing furies of the mind!


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## Handel

Concerning Mozart and Handel, I think Handel could have been as good as Mozart on that matter. However, even if both were keen psychologist of their characters, each has probably field of specialization. Handel was particularly good to depict cheated women. 

Maybe Handel is less musically impressive but he didn't have all the language Mozart could use in his opera.


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## Leporello87

Handel, thanks for your post, I'll listen to this example closely the first chance I get.


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## Handel

And how is it?


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## Leporello87

Thanks for posting this file Handel, quite interesting. I really enjoyed the sort of frantic confusion that made its way into this recitative -- that is an emotion I can really identify with when feeling guilty, a sort of gnawing at you that might cause a sudden grip of worry or confusion. I like how that aspect is realized in the music, and I think I may need to start looking more closely at some of these operas.

Here is another similar question. This example is one in which a single character is fighting with their emotions, and that is depicted in the music. Are there good examples in Handel that you would suggest, in which the particular quirks and timing of a dramatic situation involving several people is translated carefully into music? I am thinking perhaps of something along the vein of what we have some Mozart opera finales. I'm not sure which Handel operas might lend themselves to having that sort of detailed ensemble-work, but that's another sub-category of character psychology in opera I'm quite interested in.

Thanks again.


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## Handel

Leporello87 said:


> Here is another similar question. This example is one in which a single character is fighting with their emotions, and that is depicted in the music. Are there good examples in Handel that you would suggest, in which the particular quirks and timing of a dramatic situation involving several people is translated carefully into music? I am thinking perhaps of something along the vein of what we have some Mozart opera finales. I'm not sure which Handel operas might lend themselves to having that sort of detailed ensemble-work, but that's another sub-category of character psychology in opera I'm quite interested in.
> 
> Thanks again.


Baroque opera rarely present a dramatic action including many characters (e.g. when Don Giovanni goes to hell in the Mozart opera).

In baroque opera, action is lived during the recitative, not the aris. But Handel went further sometimes. One of the best example IMO is the death scene from Acis and Galatea. While Acis and Galatea are singing their love, the jealous Polyphemus (who loves Galatea) is in rage and eventually kills Acis. It is rare to see such a scene in Handel or any baroque composer production.

It has a great intensity: http://www.box.net/shared/yjf1i66s7k

Galatea & Acis
The flocks shall leave the mountains,
The woods the turtle dove,
The nymphs forsake the fountains,
Ere I forsake my love!

Polyphemus
Torture! fury! rage! despair!
I cannot, cannot bear!

Galatea & Acis
Not show'rs to larks so pleasing,
Nor sunshine to the bee,
Not sleep to toil so easing,
As these dear smiles to me.

Polyphemus
Fly swift, thou massy ruin, fly!
Die, presumptuous Acis, die!


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## Leporello87

Handel said:


> Baroque opera rarely present a dramatic action including many characters (e.g. when Don Giovanni goes to hell in the Mozart opera).
> 
> In baroque opera, action is lived during the recitative, not the aris.


This is, too a large extent, also true of late 18th century Classical period operas. Except for the large-scale finales, the action is really all in the recitatives. But when a sequence of events is set to 'music', it's such a different sort of dramatic situation from a solo lamenting aria, it really helps to see a broad range of approaches.

Thanks for digging up an example! I have heard some from Acis and Galatea, so I feel I must've heard this section before, but I am no long sure. I will listen soon and post back. Thanks again!


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## Leporello87

Handel said:


> It is rare to see such a scene in Handel or any baroque composer production.


Which is probably why I've never gotten into it as much. One of the parts I love most about opera is how different interactions can be represented in music, which is why I've never been a big fan of opera seria. Characters interact during dry recitatives, but not in the _music_. If you're lucky enough to get a duet or a trio, each character usually sings individually, and when they sing together, it's a love duet, so they sing in 3rds or 6ths. In other words, the characters are not themselves individually distinguished. This is, of course, why I am a great admirer of the late Mozart operas.

Having said all that, this trio you've posted is absolutely lovely -- the textures and melodic lines are well-wrought, and the passion guides the music tastefully. Now that I hear it, I am pretty sure I've heard this before, but quite a long time ago. It has definitely convinced me to do more thorough investigation of Handel opera than I've done so far (which has been more random than thorough). You may have converted me yet, Handel! 

Actually, this trio reminded me immediately of the exquisite sextet from The Marriage of Figaro, in which the agitated music of the Count and Don Curzio (the march rhythm and minor seconds) is contrasted with the loving legato music of the remaining quartet Susanna, Figaro, Marcellina, and Bartolo. In that sextet, the opposing interests and emotions of these two groups is presented wonderfully, and the exact same effect is here in this Acis and Galatea trio. Mozart didn't arrange Acis and Galatea until a few years later, and I am not certain when he first encountered this work, but I can't help but think that Mozart might have thought on this trio when composing the sextet from Le nozze di Figaro.


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## Handel

Leporello87 said:


> Which is probably why I've never gotten into it as much. One of the parts I love most about opera is how different interactions can be represented in music, which is why I've never been a big fan of opera seria. Characters interact during dry recitatives, but not in the _music_. If you're lucky enough to get a duet or a trio, each character usually sings individually, and when they sing together, it's a love duet, so they sing in 3rds or 6ths. In other words, the characters are not themselves individually distinguished. This is, of course, why I am a great admirer of the late Mozart operas.
> 
> Having said all that, this trio you've posted is absolutely lovely -- the textures and melodic lines are well-wrought, and the passion guides the music tastefully. Now that I hear it, I am pretty sure I've heard this before, but quite a long time ago. It has definitely convinced me to do more thorough investigation of Handel opera than I've done so far (which has been more random than thorough). You may have converted me yet, Handel!
> 
> Actually, this trio reminded me immediately of the exquisite sextet from The Marriage of Figaro, in which the agitated music of the Count and Don Curzio (the march rhythm and minor seconds) is contrasted with the loving legato music of the remaining quartet Susanna, Figaro, Marcellina, and Bartolo. In that sextet, the opposing interests and emotions of these two groups is presented wonderfully, and the exact same effect is here in this Acis and Galatea trio. Mozart didn't arrange Acis and Galatea until a few years later, and I am not certain when he first encountered this work, but I can't help but think that Mozart might have thought on this trio when composing the sextet from Le nozze di Figaro.


Mozart, as you may know it, arranged the work in 1788 (as well as Messiah and 2 odesa few years later) for the baron van Swieten who was a great Handelian.

Also, don't investigate only Handel's operas but his oratorios too. There is plenty of good cantatas too.


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## Leporello87

Handel said:


> Mozart, as you may know it, arranged the work in 1788 (as well as Messiah and 2 odesa few years later) for the baron van Swieten who was a great Handelian.
> 
> Also, don't investigate only Handel's operas but his oratorios too. There is plenty of good cantatas too.


I knew he arranged it in 1788, but do you know when he first encountered the work? 1788 is only a couple years after he composed Figaro, so I wonder if he knew Acis and Galatea even then.

I am actually more familiar with a few of the oratorios than the operas, which is why I specifically mentioned operas -- you know, just to widen the spectrum. Cantatas I don't believe I'm familiar with, so it's more to look into. I wish my local library carried more music; their classical collection is not especially impressive.


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## Handel

It is possible that Mozart have listened Acis and Galatea when he was in London during his youth (1764 I think). Handel works were still played (those in english) at that time. I remember to have read somewhere (can't remember where howeverf) that Mozart attend to an Acis in Galatea concert during his stay in London. 

Concerning cantatas, check out for Apollo e Dafne (which is considered by many as his best cantata) and The Lucrezia.

Finally, if recitatives and arias can express great sentiments, chorus too, but on a collective level (e.g. the nation mourns a king). And Handel give to those choruses a different voice depending of the nation who they represent.

In Belshazzar, there is 3 different tones.
1- for the Persians who, leaded by Cyrus, invade Babylone
2- for the Babylonians,
3- for the Jews, captives of Babylonians.


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## Leporello87

Thanks for the additional recommendations.

Great point about the dramatic and expressive capabilities of choruses -- another area I feel was tapped not tapped well enough by many of the operas in this period. This chorus you mention sounds great. During our conversations, I am keeping a checklist of all this Handel to look for


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## Handel

Here are 3 chorus sung by each parts.

The Jews: http://www.box.net/shared/rkkkbsoh1x

Recall, O king, thy rash command!
Nor prostitute with impious hand
To uses vile the holy things
Of great Jehovah, king of kings.
Thy grandsire trembled at his name,
And doom'd to death who durst blaspheme;
For he, like us, his pow'r had tried,
Confess'd him just in all his ways,
Confess'd him able to abase
The sons of men that walk in pride.

The Babylonians: http://www.box.net/shared/zdmbtoyseb

Ye tutelar gods of our empire, look down,
And see what rich trophies your victory crown.
Let our bounteous gifts, which our gratitude raise,
Wine, gold, merry notes, pay our tributes of praise.
Sesach, this night is chiefly thine,
Kind donor of the sparkling wine!

The Persians: http://www.box.net/shared/qz0hd38n3g

O glorious prince, thrice happy they
Born to enjoy thy future sway!
To all like thee were sceptres giv'n,
Kings were like gods, and earth like Heav'n.
Subjection free, unforc'd, would prove
Obedience is the child of love;
The jars of nation soon would cease,
Sweet liberty, beatific peace
Would stretch their reign from shore to shore,
And war and slav'ry be no more

I forgot this. If you want to learn more about Handel operas, begin either by Giulio Cesare in Egitto or Alcina. Those two are the best he made.


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## Handel

What do you think of those Leporello?


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## Leporello87

I'm sorry it's taken me so long to respond. Because of medical issues, I've been offline for this week. So once again, sorry for the delay. I am surprised to not see others chime in!

Thank you so much for sharing these choruses! I have enjoyed listening to them, very nice music, and as you said, the 3 groups of people are indeed sharply contrasted. 

Somehow, the development and characterization of the drama in these works seems very different from what I am more used to in later opera (Mozart and onwards), and I would like to explore it more soon. I hope I can find some of these works at my local library.


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## Amy

I think it is difficult to try and compare composers from such different eras, as those from which Mozart and Handel originate. It is almost like asking someone which is 'better', red or blue? There is no reason why one ought to be superior, it is all just a matter of opinion. As I owe Handel my appreciation for 'classical' music, I know that I will always hold him in highest regard, and I must say that even now when I hear his water music I am taken back to my fourteen year old self who was taken aback in naive wonder when hearing this for the first time. It was about this time that I got my first e-mail account and it still remains [email protected]. I think to a certain degree his delicacy appeals to the listener on a personal level, and I'm not sure that if my first experience of 'classical' music had been Berlioz' symphony fantastic or one of the greater Mahler symphonies that I would have been able to Handel it (lol, apalling pun, I know). 


> Personally, I find a lot of that all that Baroque pretty flimsy and repetitive. And all those twanging harpsichords get on my nerves too. I'm sure a lot of it could be produced by an electronic synthesiser set on random mode, and sound better.


In regard to this, Mango, my mother would most certainly agree with you, and when I was living at home harpsichords were actually banned, along with shawms and crumhorns! However, even though I adore most of the later romantics, hearing the sweet delicacy of a harpsichord always gives me a certain thrill. Handel brings about this thrill in me in a more intense way than any other Baroque composer (with the possible exception of Bach) and I thoroughly agree with Handel (as in poster of this discussion, not George Frederich, though I'm sure he would say the same ) that the composer uses emotion to a higher degree than any of his contemporaries. What could be regarded as flimsy and repetitive could also be regarded as structured and well organised. As a matter of fact, it is the variation in Handel's Coranation Anthem's that appeal to me so much, and though I admit that some Baroque composers use similar themes in many of their pieces, I must exepmt Handel from this, as he has that rare ability to infuse a different flavour into each piece he writes


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## Andrew

In my opinion Händel had the rare capability to express very much using only a few notes. When you see the score it often looks simple, but when you hear it, the secret of his music starts to affect the listener and his feelings. It's difficult to explain. As Beethoven said (Handel just quoted this): "Go to him to learn how to achieve great effects, by such simple means."

Long ago one of the first LP's I owned was a recording of Händel's "Water Music" and "Music for the Royal Fireworks". I listened to this music very, very, very often and never was bored. Even today, after more than 30 years, I can listen to it with pleasure and without being bored. So there is a good reason to be in doubt that a synthesizer set to radom mode could do the same.


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## Handel

Indeed. For example, Beethoven loved how the funeral march in Saul was so simple but emotionnally intense at the same time.


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## Rod Corkin

All wise words. As a composer of vocal music in particular, G F Handel is unsurpassed. As already has been said, his sheer efficiency with notes is unparalleled.


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## Handel

Yep, he was a musical businessman.


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## Rod Corkin

Handel said:


> Yep, he was a musical businessman.


True, a collector of fine art too. I think he died with about £20,000 in the Bank, a huge sum in those days, an impossible sum for the average composer. I'll check this figure though.


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## Gladiator

Handel said:


> Yep, he was a musical businessman.


Yes, and those that are successful these days have to be business people too. Unfortunate.


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## Guest

It was a convention of the era not to have big ensemble numbers in operas.

However, towards the end of his operatic career Handel increasingly rewrote the rules. For example in ARIODANTE he introduced French-style ballets which formed an essential part of the plot... e.g. "Ginevra's nightmare"

But he was also playing with larger-scale ensembles. Take the opening of SERSE, in which Romilda is being pursued by two rival lovers... the King (Serse) and the King's own brother, Arsamenes. Romilda is supposed to be singing a solo song at a Pleasure Garden, but she's continuously interrupted by both of her lovers, in a nice comic moment. Arsamenese even has his servant with him, who makes the situation worse by telling his master - loudly - to be quiet during the singing  As well as all of this, the brothers are hiding from each other and each is pretending he isn't there - so the production scope for having them hiding in the undergrowth at the Pleasure Garden is quite generous 

In addition to GIULIO CESARE and ALCINA (already recommended, and quite right too!) I would strongly recommend the music of ARIODANTE (perhaps his most advanced opera score?) and SERSE (for sheer amusement and enjoyment).

Here's Anne-Sofie von Otter as Ariodante... he's been cheated out of the succession to the throne, and been convinced that his fiancee has been sleeping around. He throws himself into the sea, but he doesn't die... he comes-to on a deserted beach in Scotland, and realises that everyone he knows has cheated or lied to him... and he sings this...


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