# Nikolaus Harnoncourt



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I've just been listening to his 1986 recording of the B minor mass and it struck me that it's maybe the most challenging performance of anything I've ever heard. It's like he breaks the music up into very small bits and gives each bit a life and personality of its own.

Anyway I wondered what you all think of this musician, who I'd like to understand better.


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## Doc (Dec 7, 2013)

I admit I haven't heard a lot of Harnoncourt, but his Brahms cycle is excellent. I believe it was Gramophone's top choice for a complete set of the symphonies. Certainly one of the better interpretations I've heard in a while, surpassed only perhaps by Karajan's recordings from the 60s.

EDIT: Here's the Gramophone Review for anyone interested.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I like his Schubert symphonies set with the Concertgebouw Orchestra on Teldec/Warner where NH seems to strike a harmonious balance between light and shade. The earliest symphonies are not treated with any less priority than the others, which is not always the case with other surveys, where it sometimes seems that the early symphonies are 'got out of the way' and the real effort is saved for 5, 6, 8 and 9. Set also includes a couple of Italian overtures, which is a nice, if not necessarily essential, bonus.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

I have his Harmoniemesse by Haydn and find it very good - he pays very close attention to detail and has a rhythmatic, dynamic sound.


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## eyeman (Oct 3, 2013)

Mandryka said:


> I've just been listening to his 1986 recording of the B minor mass and it struck me that it's maybe the most challenging performance of anything I've ever heard. It's like he breaks the music up into very small bits and gives each bit a life and personality of its own.
> 
> Anyway I wondered what you all think of this musician, who I'd like to understand better.


I recently downloaded his collection of Beethoven symphonies from Itunes. All 9 for about $16 and I'm very pleased. Recording quality is good and I think he did a great job with the music. All parts sound lively and crisp and like HaydnBearstheClock said, he pays very close attention to detail. I too wonder what others think of his interpretations of Beethoven...as for me...I like it! But then what do I know, I must tell you I'm a novice.


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

Harnoncourt is all over the map for me.

His highly toted Brahms Symphonies did nothing for me. If you want to actually hear Brahms try Walter or Klemperer or Jochum or Sanderling or Mackerras or Dohnanyi or one of the many other great interpreters of his music.

His Schubert Symphonies are pretty good for the most part.

His Bruckner Symphonies 5, 7 & 9 were good but his 8 was a miss.

His Dvorak Symphonies 8 & 9 were good.

Both his Haydn Creation recordings were duds. 

His Verdi (Aida and Requiem) were both bad.

His Mozart Early Symphonies were very good, but his Mozart Opera recordings were between Mediocre & Ok.

His Vivaldi Four Seasons was good.

His Beethoven Piano Concertos with Aimard were nothing special.

He's really hit or miss for me. I haven't figured out if he's just more interested in certain works or if he's just bi-polar on certain days or what.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Please change the title of this thread to Count Nikolaus de la Fontaine und d'Harnoncourt-Unverzagt, his real name. The way it is written now, I couldn't get about who it was at first glance.


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## Doc (Dec 7, 2013)

realdealblues said:


> His highly toted Brahms Symphonies did nothing for me.


I'm interested in the reasons behind this, as a fan of Harnoncourt's Brahms.


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

Doc said:


> I'm interested in the reasons behind this, as a fan of Harnoncourt's Brahms.


For myself, the 1st Symphony's opening needs to have immense power and almost a sense of menace for it to work. It's meant to grip you straight away into Brahms's world. With Harnoncourt and his "New, Old Bowing Technique" that he used on these recordings makes it sound weak and lacking. This bowing technique supposedly creates a sound that is more melodic yet fairly quiet. Well, in the end the strings sound small and without any power at all. This continues through all the symphonies but is especially prevalent in the 3rd and 4th. The 4th's finale suffers greatly. Both sound particularly weak, lifeless and muddy. For someone who is normally known for his passion and dynamics Harnoncourt just seemed to lack both in these recordings.

Compare Harnoncourts recordings to Charles Mackerras who also uses the newer "Historically Informed Performance" style and smaller orchestral forces and you'll see how smaller forces can still sound Powerful and full of Dynamics. Mackerras never plods where Harnoncourt seems happy to just sit around and wallow.

Now, Harnoncourt is far from the worst I've heard, but I just don't feel he is the best to represent Brahms.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

realdealblues said:


> His Schubert Symphonies are pretty good for the most part.


I like both his recordings of the 9th



realdealblues said:


> Both his Haydn Creation recordings were duds.


But his Haydn symphonies with CMV are outstanding



realdealblues said:


> His Mozart Early Symphonies were very good, but his Mozart Opera recordings were between Mediocre & Ok.


I don't know them. I adore his late Mozart symphonies on this DVD

View attachment 30121




realdealblues said:


> His Beethoven Piano Concertos with Aimard were nothing special.


I disagree about op 15.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Aramis said:


> Please change the title of this thread to Count Nikolaus de la Fontaine und d'Harnoncourt-Unverzagt, his real name. The way it is written now, I couldn't get about who it was at first glance.


"Nick, Nico or Nicky" to his friends.

Besides, in the contemporary world, trailing all those names, the wax seals, the ribbons, makes you look like someone all dressed up but who stepped in some toilet paper in the loo, later walking about the streets dressed all proper and walking with an elegant bearing while trailing dirty toilet paper from your shoes.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

I haven't heard it, but Harnoncourt's Schumann symphony cycle is selling for $5 at Amazon now (MP3).

http://www.amazon.com/Schumann-Symp...TF8&colid=38RTQS881BZ64&coliid=I3QD5QX8ZN3PNG


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

Very hit and miss.
I think his Brahms and Schubert are good but not great. There's better recordings out there.
His Bach cantatas are a bit stale these days.
His Beethoven symphonies are okay but again, not great. The exception being the 1st and 3rd (Chamber Orcheatra of Europe) which I find to be excellent.
His Handel symphonies 82-87 and 93-104 (Concertgebouw) are probably his best work. They're very good...as is, Ode to St Cecilia's Day (Concentus Musicus Wien)

I'm not sure if there's much else worth salvaging.


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## Winterreisender (Jul 13, 2013)

I particularly enjoy Nikolaus' recordings of Mozart's sacred music:









The Vespers are wonderful, as are some of the lesser known masses.


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

Couac Addict said:


> ...
> His Handel symphonies 82-87 and 93-104 (Concertgebouw) are probably his best work. They're very good...as is, Ode to St Cecilia's Day (Concentus Musicus Wien)....


Just a typo: Haydn. Only the Ode is Handel's

I would say that his Beethoven (the symphonies) was a real milestone in the history of conducting.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

GioCar said:


> Just a typo: Haydn. Only the Ode is Handel's
> 
> I would say that his Beethoven (the symphonies) was a real milestone in the history of conducting.


Oops. The morning's have been too dark lately...can't get the brain to function properly.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Couac Addict said:


> Oops. The morning's have been too dark lately...can't get the brain to function properly.


Ah I was hoping it was a slip in the other way, as I rather like what he does with Handel's Concertos.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Couac Addict said:


> Very hit and miss.
> I think his Brahms and Schubert are good but not great. There's better recordings out there.
> His Bach cantatas are a bit stale these days.
> His Beethoven symphonies are okay but again, not great. The exception being the 1st and 3rd (Chamber Orcheatra of Europe) which I find to be excellent.
> ...


I find Harnoncourt's conribution to the cantata set anything but stale.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

I recently watched Harnoncourt's old DVD of L'Orfeo. Even though he was only about 45 years old at the time of this performance, and not nearly as well known as he later became, I found it extraordinary that the DVD had so many dramatic shots of him. He was as much the star of the show as the singers, for sure. Even then he seemed to go for the intense, almost angry look he later made famous.

He doesn't look like someone I would be anxious to sit next to at dinner.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Believe it or not, Harnoncourt conducted a production of Gershwin's Porgy and Bess ! in Graz
back in 2009, and this was recorded by Teldec , although I haven't heard it . I would certainly be
curious to . He is a great admirer of Gershwin believe it or not . Harnoncourt can be a
quirky and eccentric interpreter of dofferent composers, but he seems incapable of giving an
uninteresting performance of anything . 
You might not like the way he conducts something, but his performnces can certinly be
though-provoking and make you experience familiar works in a different way and can
mke you see them in a new light.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Just wanted to bump this old thread as I've gotten a CD of his yesterday that I've been enjoying, Haydn symphonies 96 and 97 with the Concertgebouw. I think they're just as revelatory as everyone says. He makes the symphonies absolutely massive, like bigger than Beethoven symphonies, without sacrificing their essential classicism at all (as opposed to, say, Karajan, who might be said to do something similar to Haydn's music). He makes the music extremely dramatic. He might be the best HIP Haydn conductor that I've heard. I definitely need to hear more of his Haydn

I hear his Schubert symphonies are similarly mind-expanding. Is anyone listening to it lately?

He is an extremely controversial conductor. But why? He seems like he would've been a very unpleasant person to be around, is this an unfounded prejudgment? 

@Mandryka, tell me, what have you learned about Harnoncourt and his music in the past 6 years?


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Well since I started this thread he produced some new things, late Mozart symphonies, a Mozart concerto with Lang Lang, some Haydn, a new Missa Solemnis. 

My view of him is that he had some interesting ideas, ideas about phrasing and about the way the voices can interrelate in counterpoint, but he didn't always have the courage to put them into practice. When he did put them into practice, what he does is well worth hearing.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Mandryka said:


> Well since I started this thread he produced some new things, late Mozart symphonies, a Mozart concerto with *Lang Lang*, some Haydn, a new Missa Solemnis.


What an odd pairing. I think I need to check out his Mozart, along with more of the Haydn and Schubert as I said before. I am also curious about his Schumann cycle with the Chamber Orchestra of Europe. Especially the piano concerto with Ms. Martha Argerich.

Anyway, have you heard any of his famous Bach cantatas cycle? I think I should hear more of this.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

The Mozart with Lang Lang is very challenging, in my experience you need to listen at least 20 times before deciding whether you like it or not. Much the same with the final recording of the last three Mozart symphonies.

The Schumann I don't know, though I saw him do Genoveva and was happy to be there for the night. I'm not sure what the recording's like. 

The Schubert symphonies are good though, none better IMO apart from Norrington.

Harnoncourt had a very good name: Johann Nikolaus Graf de la Fontaine und d'Harnoncourt-Unverzagt


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

flamencosketches said:


> Just wanted to bump this old thread as I've gotten a CD of his yesterday that I've been enjoying, Haydn symphonies 96 and 97 with the Concertgebouw. I think they're just as revelatory as everyone says. He makes the symphonies absolutely massive, like bigger than Beethoven symphonies, without sacrificing their essential classicism at all (as opposed to, say, Karajan, who might be said to do something similar to Haydn's music). He makes the music extremely dramatic. He might be the best HIP Haydn conductor that I've heard. I definitely need to hear more of his Haydn
> 
> I hear his Schubert symphonies are similarly mind-expanding. Is anyone listening to it lately?
> 
> ...


There are so many worthwhile or more Harnoncourt recordings. He often seems to bring traditional Viennese virtues along with his new ideas.

To take your queries first, I am not a huge fan of his Concertgebouw Schubert (but many here are). They are good but he is a little too dour in the early symphonies (it works well with the 4th, though) and his 8 and 9 are in competition with quite a number of amazing recordings. His later Berlin set is something special, though, and he is much more successful at getting under the skin of early Schubert .... without making them sound at all like the many other excellent sets of those works. I don't really understand why he is so controversial. Interesting, yes. And was he a nice guy? I saw a documentary about Karajan on TV once and Harnoncourt was one of the talking heads. He seemed a lovely man, amused by some of Karajan's quirks but never critical or opinionated.

I quite like his Brahms symphonies - 3 and 4 and the extras (Haydn Variations, overtures) are all excellent but 1 and 2 are not so good - and his Beethoven symphonies (with the COE) are one of the best sets, IMO. I also like his Beethoven piano concertos with Aimard - an essential set for me - and his later recording of symphonies 4 and 5 (with Concentus Musicus). Some of his Handel is great and I don't think there has ever been a set of the Op.6 concerti grossi as good as his (although I also greatly enjoy Marriner's first shot at them .. the set with Thurston Dart). A lot of his Bach is excellent - his Brandenburgs, his Suite 3, his Mass, his Matthew Passion are all essential recordings as far as I am concerned and I always enjoy his cantatas.

His Creation (Haydn) is excellent. But I never took to his Concertgebouw Mozart symphonies at all. His early symphonies (Concentus Musicus), though, are excellent and I like his Mozart Requiem a lot. I found his late recording of the last three Mozart symphonies (performed as one long piece!) stimulating and worthwhile. I also like his Lang Lang record of a couple of concertos and also his concerto recording with Buchbinder and the one with Gulda.

I could go on! I'm quite a Harnoncourt fan.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Enthusiast said:


> There are so many worthwhile or more Harnoncourt recordings. He often seems to bring traditional Viennese virtues along with his new ideas.
> 
> To take your queries first, I am not a huge fan of his Concertgebouw Schubert (but many here are). They are good but he is a little too dour in the early symphonies (it works well with the 4th, though) and his 8 and 9 are in competition with quite a number of amazing recordings. His later Berlin set is something special, though, and he is much more successful at getting under the skin of early Schubert .... without making them sound at all like the many other excellent sets of those works. I don't really understand why he is so controversial. Interesting, yes. And was he a nice guy? I saw a documentary about Karajan on TV once and Harnoncourt was one of the talking heads. He seemed a lovely man, amused by some of Karajan's quirks but never critical or opinionated.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the point of view, Enthusiast. Given our overlapping tastes in many areas, and my enthusiasm for the little Harnoncourt that I have heard, I suspect I may become something of a fan of his myself, with more exposure. I will look into the Aimard Beethoven concertos. I seem to recall Gramophone thought very highly of them (they were included in their "top 50 Beethoven recordings of all-time" list I believe). The recordings I'm most interested in of his are the Haydn symphonies (and perhaps Die Schöpfung, a work I've never heard), the Bach cantatas, the Schubert and Schumann symphonies, and the Brahms - though WTF was Warner thinking with this cover?










^This set is probably the one to get, considering it includes the concertos with Buchbinder, but the earlier release is a little less terrifying:










Of course, this is a superficial complaint, and tangential at best to the music. :lol:


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I just said that Harnoncourt’s Schubert was good, I just realised that I was confusing his Schubert with Norrington at Stuttgart. 

If you get into Harnoncourt in c19 music, it’s well worth exploring Norrington Stuttgart too, I love what Norrington does with Schubert, Brahms and Beethoven. Norrington ans Harnoncourt were always paired together by the popular press, maybe because of their approach to vibrato and the outspoken way they pissed off the crusty establishment. In fact, of course, Norrington’s Norrington and Harnoncourt’s Harnoncourt.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Not so much hit or miss but a fair bit of mediocrity for me. His Brahms is ok, his Schubert cycles are good, his Beethoven symphonies quite good (but are constantly bettered by others), his Slavonic Dances are noisy but exciting and his Bruckner decent but no more. His best stuff, IMO, is his Mozart symphonies, Dvorak late symphonies and his Schumann cycle. All the latter are very good. I could happily live without much else of his, tbh.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Merl said:


> ... his Beethoven symphonies quite good (but are constantly bettered by others) .... His best stuff, IMO, is his Mozart symphonies, Dvorak late symphonies and his Schumann cycle.


We hear this almost exactly opposite! The Beethoven symphonies "constantly bettered"? Aside from his having developed one of the most iconic Beethoven sounds of his time and in a set with one of the best Eroicas (one that is often chosen by critics as well), an excellent Pastoral and 8th and very good 1, 2, 5 and 9! Many also value his 7 highly (I think it just misses as, perhaps, does his 4). I wonder if you were also referring to his 4 and 5 with Concentus Musicus?

I think, though, what surprises me more is your picking out his Mozart symphonies for praise. I have tried and tried to like his Concertgebouw recordings and just find them horrible! At least they are not bland or ordinary. And I would only call his Schumann symphonies adequate - they are perfectly serviceable but there are a good few conductors I prefer in Schumann.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Merl said:


> Not so much hit or miss but a fair bit of mediocrity for me. His Brahms is ok, his Schubert cycles are good, his Beethoven symphonies quite good (but are constantly bettered by others), his Slavonic Dances are noisy but exciting and his Bruckner decent but no more. His best stuff, IMO, is his Mozart symphonies, Dvorak late symphonies and his Schumann cycle. All the latter are very good. I could happily live without much else of his, tbh.


Harnoncourt's recordings are beyond hit, miss and mediocre. One likes some, is moved by many, is awed by few, is annoyed by others... no matter. They "exist" in the way the thoughts of a great philosopher exist, whether one agrees with them or not, whether one likes them or not.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Enthusiast said:


> We hear this almost exactly opposite! The Beethoven symphonies "constantly bettered"? Aside from his having developed one of the most iconic Beethoven sounds of his time and in a set with one of the best Eroicas (one that is often chosen by critics as well), an excellent Pastoral and 8th and very good 1, 2, 5 and 9! Many also value his 7 highly (I think it just misses as, perhaps, does his 4). I wonder if you were also referring to his 4 and 5 with Concentus Musicus?
> 
> I think, though, what surprises me more is your picking out his Mozart symphonies for praise. I have tried and tried to like his Concertgebouw recordings and just find them horrible! At least they are not bland or ordinary. And I would only call his Schumann symphonies adequate - they are perfectly serviceable but there are a good few conductors I prefer in Schumann.


I don't know the Beethoven symphonies recording, I heard him do the second symphony in London and enjoyed it. I've heard the some of the Beethoven concertos with Aimard on the CD -- the 1st, the 3rd and the 4th. These are very thought provoking radically original reappraisals of what to do with the score, by two very experienced and creative musicians. Ditto for the two recordings of the Missa Solemnis.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^ That is well put.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

As I said he's recorded stuff I think is very good, good and underwhelming. He's no different for me than many other conductors, in that respect. I still like his late Dvorak a lot and rate his New World as one of the finest around. I don't think I'm being unduly harsh on him at all. Oh, and I like his Haydn symphonies a lot too.


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