# Surveying Beethoven's piano sonatas



## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

So, I only have a couple of Beethoven's sonatas as of yet, but I do plan on purchasing a complete cycle down the line. Actually, even though I don't tend to obtain multiple versions of a work often, I was thinking it might be interesting to purchase two cycles from very different pianists. After a lot of reading on reviews, this forum and another forum, I've decided to go with Brendel, and the not-quite-complete Gilels set.

My question: For a relative newbie to Beethoven's sonatas (but someone who listens to a lot of solo piano) would you recommend that I get very famiiar with one set first (I'd go with the more traditional Brendel first) or rather go one sonata at a time, getting to know both versions of #1, then #2 and so forth? Considering the time it will take to go through every sonata on one set alone, I'm leaning towards the second option, but curious about opinions.


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

For listening or learning or both? lol...
I don't have this box set but i have always loved his interpretations.
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Complete-Sonatas-Daniel-Barenboim/dp/B00000C2KP


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Listening . I might review the piano scores as I go for fun, but it will be a very Looooong time before I even consider trying to learn to play one.

Yeah, I might have to consider Barenboim too.... he was another one high on my possibilities list. Damn, I need to have someone else pick two and order for me. I can't seem to narrow it down :lol:


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## EricABQ (Jul 10, 2012)

I've been looking to purchase another set of these and am leaning towards the Brendel. iTunes has a set that has the complete sonatas and complete concertos for 44.99.

However, when I went to Amazon, I saw that they are selling the MP3 Schnabel set for $1.99. Yes, $1.99. The sound quality is not very good, however.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Yeah, for that price I may pick up the Schnabel set too.

Maybe I'll do the Barenboim instead of Brendel. Or a full set of one and selected picks from another. Heck I don't know. I'll see as I go.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Sonata said:


> Yeah, for that price I may pick up the Schnabel set too.
> 
> Maybe I'll do the Barenboim instead of Brendel. Or a full set of one and selected picks from another. Heck I don't know. I'll see as I go.


The Gilels is an excellent choice for a set; the consistent excellence is remarkable. If you are at all sound-tolerant, a Schnabel set is a must, because his interpretations are both highly effective and unlike those of anyone else.

If you choose Brendel, you may (or may not) experience the Ephemeral Effect. Some listeners find his Beethoven enjoyable but with no resonance in memory.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

I think I'll get Gilels for sure....and it sounds like I really can't go wrong with either Brendel or Barenboim. But I think this has become a head to head poll. Time to create one!!


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## Guest (Oct 21, 2012)

Just been grappling with the same dilemma! In the end, I cheated and just went for this, so I could then take the plunge later if I liked his interpretation. I'm liking it so far!

View attachment 9136


http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B001M02Z2S/ref=oh_d__o01_details_o01__i00


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## Turangalîla (Jan 29, 2012)

Barenboim's Beethoven sonatas are _my_ personal favourite; however, almost all of them (if not all of them) are conveniently on YouTube, with video and all. So I would buy the Brendel (my other favourite) and Gilels.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

EricABQ said:


> I've been looking to purchase another set of these and am leaning towards the Brendel. iTunes has a set that has the complete sonatas and complete concertos for 44.99.
> 
> However, when I went to Amazon, I saw that they are selling the MP3 Schnabel set for $1.99. Yes, $1.99. The sound quality is not very good, however.


The performances are what you want to listen to,not the recordings.But in any case you should have several versions of each of the great sonatas.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

moody said:


> The performances are what you want to listen to,not the recordings.


Unfortunately, the recordings are what you listen to by definition; the peformances are what you hear (if you're lucky).

Sonata, all the cycles mentioned are good. Also consider Schiff, who along with Gilels is my favorite.

Whichever you get, be sure to download Schiff's Beethoven sonata lectures -- there's a separate lecture, made from the keyboard, for each sonata. Lots of good stuff and good humor as well.

http://music.guardian.co.uk/classical/page/0,,1943867,00.html


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## Guest (Oct 21, 2012)

moody said:


> The performances are what you want to listen to,not the recordings.But in any case you should have several versions of each of the great sonatas.


I would not want a poor quality recording, not matter how good the performance.



CarterJohnsonPiano said:


> Barenboim's Beethoven sonatas are _my_ personal favourite; however, almost all of them (if not all of them) are conveniently on YouTube, with video and all. So I would buy the Brendel (my other favourite) and Gilels.


I suppose if your hi-fi is hooked up to your PC, or you have hi-fi quality sound on your PC, then Youtube might do. Personally, I prefer listening to either CD or mp3 player.


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

Moody's right - hang the recording, the performance is the important thing. The Schnabel set is beyond a steal at $2 (£1 in this country) JUST BUY IT. What have you got to lose for that price?

I bought it recently and I think it is well worth getting on its own merits. I haven't listened to many of them yet (I'm not even very familiar with the Beethoven sonatas in general - a huge gap in my knowledge), but I find his interpretation forces me to pay attention when I had had difficulty in doing so before. The quality of the recording doesn't distract by any means IMO.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Sonata said:


> I think I'll get Gilels for sure....and it sounds like I really can't go wrong with either Brendel or Barenboim. But I think this has become a head to head poll. Time to create one!!


I suggest hearing one or two of Barenboim's recordings followed in a few hours or a day (depending on how long your short-term memory is) with the same sonata played by Gilels. My experience has been that Barenboim's competence is no substitute for Gilels' greatness. The difference is not so much in the moment as in what occupies the silence when the music is done. Mere competence is not enough.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

MacLeod said:


> I would not want a poor quality recording, not matter how good the performance.
> 
> I suppose if your hi-fi is hooked up to your PC, or you have hi-fi quality sound on your PC, then Youtube might do. Personally, I prefer listening to either CD or mp3 player.


Then you cannot listen to any of the greats from musical history,which is very sad but it depends what you want out of life doesn't it?


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

KenOC said:


> Unfortunately, the recordings are what you listen to by definition; the peformances are what you hear (if you're lucky).
> 
> Sonata, all the cycles mentioned are good. Also consider Schiff, who along with Gilels is my favorite.
> 
> ...


The Gilels is good,but the others are fairly middle of the road!


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## EricABQ (Jul 10, 2012)

Well, I'm convinced. I'm going to go ahead and download the Schnabel. It's practically free, so it's a real no lose situation.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

I like Gilels too of course, but his "Moonlight" is unusually unemotional in the first movement, both in the DG and the Brilliant Classics version. Not to the jollyness-degree of Glenn Gould in that movement, or the frenzied Anton Kuerti - but a bit more narrative or "novelistic" approach would be nice.


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## EricABQ (Jul 10, 2012)

So I'm listening to the Schnabel set, and I have to say it is pretty rough sounding. But, it does have a retro feel that is kind of cool. And the playing is of course excellent. But I can't help but wish this performance had been paired with modern recording. Of course, if that was the case it would cost $50.


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## EricABQ (Jul 10, 2012)

Actually, the more I listen the easier it is to get past the recording quality and just concentrate on the music.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

joen_cph said:


> I like Gilels too of course, but his "Moonlight" is unusually unemotional in the first movement, both in the DG and the Brilliant Classics version. Not to the jollyness-degree of Glenn Gould in that movement, or the frenzied Anton Kuerti - but a bit more narrative or "novelistic" approach would be nice.


That's an interesting take, both on the Gilels and on what you expect from that movement. I think it _is_ the equivalent of a funeral march, but without the weeping. Have you heard the Kipnis (fortepiano) recording? That is my notion of the perfect interpretation, and Gilels' might work as well if he were playing a similar instrument. I haven't heard the Kuerti, and you have me curious.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

EricABQ said:


> Actually, the more I listen the easier it is to get past the recording quality and just concentrate on the music.


That is my experience too, with a couple of the transfers. I wonder which they used for the mp3s you have. It is a _'strange and wonderful thing'_, how one's mind can both filter out the surface noise and even supply some of the missing sonorities. More whippersnappers ought to try it.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

joen_cph said:


> I like Gilels too of course, but his "Moonlight" is unusually unemotional in the first movement, both in the DG and the Brilliant Classics version. Not to the jollyness-degree of Glenn Gould in that movement, or the frenzied Anton Kuerti - but a bit more narrative or "novelistic" approach would be nice.


Please remember that the "Moonlighht" tag was not Beethoven's.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I notice Ashkenazy never gets mentioned by the old timers here...though I quite like his set of Beethoven Sonatas...though I admit I need to listen to many more recordings to be any kind of authority on the subject. I would be curious as to how others here would rank him though - middle of the road, or worse?


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

moody said:


> Please remember that the "Moonlighht" tag was not Beethoven's.


Should have been clear perhaps, wasn´t referring to a literal narrative, but the musical ongoings. I find the *Gilels* too stiffened.



> That's an interesting take, both on the Gilels and on what you expect from that movement. I think it is the equivalent of a funeral march, but without the weeping. Have you heard the Kipnis (fortepiano) recording? That is my notion of the perfect interpretation, and Gilels' might work as well if he were playing a similar instrument. I haven't heard the Kuerti, and you have me curious.


*Kuerti* underplays the dark, pointilistic droppings of "dah-da-daa" to the extreme. I used the word "frenzied" about his reading, but it is not the correct expression, "frozen" is a better one.

Haven´t found a favourite in this work yet; I haven´t investigated any fortepiano readings. 
*Yudina* is an example of an old-school, hyper-expressive reading, but has really lousy sound: 




By the way, the rather parodically fast *Gould* 



 is said to be closer to the score ?
A fast reading almost like that was also taken up by the recent, controversial *Lim* on EMI 



 ; but not very much to my liking either.


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

My vote goes to Kempff..


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

tdc said:


> I notice Ashkenazy never gets mentioned by the old timers here...though I quite like his set of Beethoven Sonatas...though I admit I need to listen to many more recordings to be any kind of authority on the subject. I would be curious as to how others here would rank him though - middle of the road, or worse?


I suppose I'm an old timer and I don't rate him at all.
But if we were to talk of Stefan Askenase,I rate him highly.


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## thesubtlebody (Oct 20, 2012)

Sonata, if you have not purchased those box sets yet, I might recommend (if you can accept the recommendation of a neophyte) that you consider three cycles that I have been deeply moved by, overall but also notably in a number of key sonatas: 
1. *Gulda*'s 60s cycle originally on Amadeo (I got mine in a recent white Eloquence reissue, including the Diabelli Variations and the piano concertos with Horst Stein conducting...if you look around, you can find it quite reasonably...this cycle was issued by Brilliant as well, but I think that edition might be out of print); Gulda has been derided by some for being a showboat (he was even called a "terrorist" at one point!), but I think his respect, love, and practice of jazz and free-improvised musics actually makes him a stronger musician and a worthy torchbearer for Beethoven...a beautifully fleet and unfussy touch.
2. *Arrau*'s famous 60s recordings for Philips (?) [recently reissued by Decca, including DIABELLIs]
3. *Backhaus*' Decca recordings [not universally admired, but I was surprised at how deeply taken by them I was]

I'm sorry, though, your question about study methodology is actually much more interesting to me than which pianist one happens to listen to; and I cannot offer a good response! Anyway, I just thought I would add to the confusion.

The American critic Jens Laurson offered a comprehensive but not (iirc) exhaustive annotated discography of more-or-less-complete Beethoven sonatas cycles at Musicweb, a few years ago:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/June09/Beethoven_piano_cycles.htm
It might be useful to someone; the critical comments are personal to him and not in-depth, but I still found it useful.


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

You can see Barenboims expertise from this lesson were he teaches Bang Bang.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

thesubtlebody said:


> Sonata, if you have not purchased those box sets yet, I might recommend (if you can accept the recommendation of a neophyte) that you consider three cycles that I have been deeply moved by, overall but also notably in a number of key sonatas:
> 1. *Gulda*'s 60s cycle originally on Amadeo (I got mine in a recent white Eloquence reissue, including the Diabelli Variations and the piano concertos with Horst Stein conducting...if you look around, you can find it quite reasonably...this cycle was issued by Brilliant as well, but I think that edition might be out of print); Gulda has been derided by some for being a showboat (he was even called a "terrorist" at one point!), but I think his respect, love, and practice of jazz and free-improvised musics actually makes him a stronger musician and a worthy torchbearer for Beethoven...a beautifully fleet and unfussy touch.
> 2. *Arrau*'s famous 60s recordings for Philips (?) [recently reissued by Decca, including DIABELLIs]
> 3. *Backhaus*' Decca recordings [not universally admired, but I was surprised at how deeply taken by them I was]
> ...


At last some sense---but who says that Backhaus isn't universally admired?
Mind you his early mono British Decca recordings are preferable because he was younger then.

Laurson's comments are reasonably good but his remarks re:Schnabel's technical facility is only really true as regards part of the Hammerklavier that he takes at a breakneck speed.


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## thesubtlebody (Oct 20, 2012)

moody said:


> At last some sense---but who says that Backhaus isn't universally admired?
> Mind you his early mono British Decca recordings are preferable because he was younger then.


It is true that I would have a hard time backing up that hazy assertion; on the one hand, I think virtually nothing is "universally" admired, so it's kind of a "straw-man" qualification; on the other hand, I've run across the deprecations of Backhaus' later/stereo recordings in a piecemeal fashion, which probably shouldn't be confused for critical consensus. I do look forward to hearing those older mono recordings, though I have truncated my illegal downloading as of late, and I think those recordings are woefully out of print on discs. I hope get a shot at them!

[Brendel question excised; I'll post it somewhere else]


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2012)

moody said:


> Then you cannot listen to any of the greats from musical history,which is very sad but it depends what you want out of life doesn't it?


Well, there's more to it than that, I think.

I've got the full set of Toscanini Beethoven Symphonies, downloaded from Amazon mp3 downloads for £3.99 (now 4.99, I think). As I've indicated previously, since I don't have the musical knowledge (or the scores) I've no idea whether what I am listening to is a historical great or a historical turkey: they may be faithful or not. So, I'm left with listening and comparing with others on my own terms. If you want to listen to music played in "black and white", then the Toscanini will do fine. But since I have also sampled HvK, Haitink, Barenboim and MacKerras renditions in 'colour', I can safely say that I'm capable of discerning what appeals to my ears, and I discern better when the reproduction is better. Even if you, or others on TC were to tell me what makes a 'great from musical history', I'd probably be none the wiser.

That, of course, may well be my loss, but it'll have to do for now, since I see no way around it except to listen to those interpretations recommended and see what happens.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

MacLeod said:


> Well, there's more to it than that, I think.
> 
> I've got the full set of Toscanini Beethoven Symphonies, downloaded from Amazon mp3 downloads for £3.99 (now 4.99, I think). As I've indicated previously, since I don't have the musical knowledge (or the scores) I've no idea whether what I am listening to is a historical great or a historical turkey: they may be faithful or not. So, I'm left with listening and comparing with others on my own terms. If you want to listen to music played in "black and white", then the Toscanini will do fine. But since I have also sampled HvK, Haitink, Barenboim and MacKerras renditions in 'colour', I can safely say that I'm capable of discerning what appeals to my ears, and I discern better when the reproduction is better. Even if you, or others on TC were to tell me what makes a 'great from musical history', I'd probably be none the wiser.
> 
> That, of course, may well be my loss, but it'll have to do for now, since I see no way around it except to listen to those interpretations recommended and see what happens.


That is the whole point,it is what appeals to your ears but if an artist's efforts have been described as "great" you need to consider why?
Nobody knowa what is "great" when they start out ,but through recordings and concerts they come to certain conclusions.But what I'm saying is judge by performance not age of recording.
What are you going to say about Caruso recordings from 1904,because the recordings given to Pavarotti are easier to listen to for sure?
What you have to try to do is to translate what you hear into what it would sound like in an up to date recording.After all they say the human brain is a great computer!
But if you only want to listen to the music there is no problem and there is nothing wrong with that.


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

MacLeod said:


> I've got the full set of Toscanini Beethoven Symphonies, downloaded from Amazon mp3 downloads for £3.99 (now 4.99, I think).


I liked your post because you alerted me to this fantastic bargain which I have now taken full advantage of. Thank you!


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2012)

moody said:


> but if an artist's efforts have been described as "great" you need to consider why?


Well, possibly, if the person doing the describing has some form as a reasonable critic.



> Nobody knowa what is "great" when they start out ,but through recordings and concerts they come to certain conclusions.


They do indeed - but let's not go round that one again, eh?


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

MacLeod said:


> Well, possibly, if the person doing the describing has some form as a reasonable critic.
> 
> They do indeed - but let's not go round that one again, eh?


You really must try to take things as they are intended and not to bristle quite so much.
The decribing in the case of Toscanini has been done by most,not all, of the musical world.


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2012)

moody said:


> You really must


...and perhaps you really must try not to dish out advice in every post.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

MacLeod said:


> ...and perhaps you really must try not to dish out advice in every post.


I only do it when it's obvious the person needs it!


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

MacLeod said:


> ...and perhaps you really must try not to dish out advice in every post.


In this forum the advice, in fact any advise not coming from the mods/admins, may safely be ignored. Perhaps a moment of receptiveness, to estimate usefulness and/or the 'spirit of the giving'. Or not; that is exclusively your call, _MacLeod_.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Wow, talk about jumping the shark. Anyway, I'm going to go for the Gilels set and the Schnabel set from Amazon. For a mere 2 dollars, I can't go wrong. I'll go in groups of about three sonatas at a time, say starting with Schnabels first three, and getting to know them, then listening to Gilel's first three. Then move forth that way. (I am aware that Gilels' is missing a few)

Then, as interest demands, I will listen to additional versions online from the likes of Fischer, Brendel, Barenboim, Gould, etc etc, whomever, and will obtain single sonatas from said pianists if I feel so compelled to.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Sonata said:


> Wow, talk about jumping the shark. Anyway, I'm going to go for the Gilels set and the Schnabel set from Amazon. For a mere 2 dollars, I can't go wrong. I'll go in groups of about three sonatas at a time, say starting with Schnabels first three, and getting to know them, then listening to Gilel's first three. Then move forth that way. (I am aware that Gilels' is missing a few)
> 
> Then, as interest demands, I will listen to additional versions online from the likes of Fischer, Brendel, Barenboim, Gould, etc etc, whomever, and will obtain single sonatas from said pianists if I feel so compelled to.


Looks like a fine plan. The three sonatas in a row procedure will help with the hearing adjustment that the Schnabel requires, and the interpretations are both excellent and different. The sonatas Gilels didn't get to record in the DG set are at the end of the cycle, so your procedure won't be interrupted in the middle.

BTW#1 - There are two Famous Pianist Fischers - Annie and Edwin.

BTW#2 - I never 'talk about jumping the shark'. It sounds dangerous though.

:tiphat:


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

BTW #1: Good to know. I had not heard of the Edwin.

BTW#2: You should try it some time, it's the latest adrenaline craze :lol:


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2012)

Hilltroll72 said:


> In this forum the advice, in fact any advise not coming from the mods/admins, may safely be ignored. Perhaps a moment of receptiveness, to estimate usefulness and/or the 'spirit of the giving'. Or not; that is exclusively your call, _MacLeod_.


What is not exclusively my call is how I react to any particular post. The reason there are Ts and Cs about people's conduct on this forum is because we have a shared responsibility. Just because some people feel compelled to share their words of wisdom, does not mean they _must_, any more than I _must _heed it, just because I feel compelled to read it. I am aware (though, I'll concede, sometimes insufficiently so) of the potential impact of what I write on potential readers. We all make mistakes, and I regret when I post clumsily or in haste, and have recently said so. Moody's last response - that I need advice - suggests he is either less aware, or he doesn't care.


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2012)

Have just been given Paul Lewis' complete set for free, so even easier choice over others! (at least in financial terms).

Reflecting on the advice of the critics cited on his homepage, it seems to make sense to give them a try http://www.paullewispiano.co.uk/discography.aspx


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Paul Lewis did my favorite Diabellis. I would expect his Beethoven sonatas to be first-rate. BTW I believe he was a student of Brendel.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

MacLeod said:


> What is not exclusively my call is how I react to any particular post. The reason there are Ts and Cs about people's conduct on this forum is because we have a shared responsibility. Just because some people feel compelled to share their words of wisdom, does not mean they _must_, any more than I _must _heed it, just because I feel compelled to read it. I am aware (though, I'll concede, sometimes insufficiently so) of the potential impact of what I write on potential readers. We all make mistakes, and I regret when I post clumsily or in haste, and have recently said so. Moody's last response - that I need advice - suggests he is either less aware, or he doesn't care.


I am not surprised that he thinks you need advice, mainly because_ I_ think everybody, certainly including myself, needs advice. I don't know everything there is to know about just about anything, and damned little about many things. Some advice I may not heed (like being told that I ought to shut up) even though 'twould be better if I heeded it.

And now some advice: If you are offered advice you don't want, ignore it.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

There´s a lot of advice to be gained here in general. But posts would generally benefit from specifying references, background and criteria a _lot _more. Not that chances are it will happen .


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

joen_cph said:


> There´s a lot of advice to be gained here in general. But posts would generally benefit from specifying references, background and criteria a _lot _more. Not that chances are it will happen .


I think I normally do.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Moody has cred. He clearly knows what he's talking about.


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