# Can someone explain the fuss about Schubert's last sonata?



## Felix Mendelssohn (Jan 18, 2019)

I'm ok with Schubert's lieder, but to me his d 960

1. Is traditional in terms of harmony and form
2. Is extremely long-winded with unnecessary repeats
3. The last two movements are very trivial-sounding

Yet people still call it one of the best Romantic sonatas, alongside the Hammerklavier. How? How come in this case people can throw aside logical judgements when deciding the worth of a piece?


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2019)

Felix Mendelssohn said:


> I'm ok with Schubert's lieder, but to me his d 960
> 
> 1. Is traditional in terms of harmony and form
> 2. Is extremely long-winded with unnecessary repeats
> ...


Do you really want someone to explain to you why Schubert's D 960 sonata is so famous and popular, or are you just being deliberately provocative?

I ask because in this recent thread

Solo pieces of otherwordly transcendence?

you wrote on 16 July, in apparent contradiction of the naive comments above, in post #3



Felix Mendelssohn said:


> And Schubert's as well. Listen to Richter's interpretation of Schubert's last sonata and you will feel transported out of material reality.


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## Felix Mendelssohn (Jan 18, 2019)

I mean, on an emotional level I like the piece but on a technical level I don't see why it is so good. I just wanted someone to help me appreciate it on a technical level as well. 

Sorry for sounding contradictory. I didn't mean to be rude but because I usually judge pieces by their technical value, I find myself emotionally drawn to this piece and just wanted to a logical justification for my preference.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Here's Alexander Lonquich's notes, which I found interesting to read



> First movement, Assai moderato: a constant movement, alternating quavers, triplets and semiquavers, creates a sense of perennial flow, significantly halted only by a few interruptions of a completely different character, primarily by a mysterious trill as early as the eighth bar, a kind of clamour that generates silence after it (I think of Freud's concept of 'the uncanny'). It explodes with virulence in the two bars that precede the ritornello, and will reverberate, irrepressibly, on at least ten further occasions; its final appearance will be at the end of the conciliatory epilogue. For the rest, Schubert deliberately proceeds as if groping his way along, allowing himself to be guided above all by concatenations of small intervals, touching on almost the entire range of keys, playing with the risk of losing the thread of the narrative.
> 
> Second movement, Andante sostenuto: immobile, hypnotic, this movement presents at the beginning the same melodic material as the Adagio of the String quintet, a cantabile theme in two voices, here modified to fit the minor key. The accompaniment seems to echo the pizzicato of the second cello in the quintet, just as the B section perhaps echoes the song Der Lindenbaum from Winterreise, at the point where, in the left hand, I hear a funeral march looming up. The return of the A section, underpinned by a modified rhythmic pattern, produces an effect, if possible, even more drained than the first time. The conclusion is in the major, a typically heart-rending Schubertian manoeuvre to express a sense of ineluctability.
> 
> ...


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2019)

Felix Mendelssohn said:


> I mean, on an emotional level I like the piece but on a technical level I don't see why it is so good. I just wanted someone to help me appreciate it on a technical level as well.
> 
> Sorry for sounding contradictory. I didn't mean to be rude but because I usually judge pieces by their technical value, I find myself emotionally drawn to this piece and just wanted to a logical justification for my preference.


If you google "Schubert D 960 analysis" you will find quite a large number of articles discussing this work. There are short ones, middle-sized ones, long ones, and they vary in complexity. Take your pick. I suggest that you might learn a lot more about the work by investigating the matter at your own speed and taking account of your level of musical knowledge.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Things aren't always as simple beneath the surface. You might find this of interest on the technical side of D.960: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schubert%27s_last_sonatas#Sonata_in_B♭_major,_D._960. Note Alfred Brendel's comments on 'Schubert elaborating on his themes and expanded them,' giving them more 'musical space'. It's almost as if Schubert gets lost in his world of beautiful themes and loses track of time. Perhaps there's something timeless in the creative dimension he's in because so much of his music seems more like the inspiration of the heart or spirit than the design of the intellect. While on the technical side this might be considered a shortcoming, on the creative side it's like experiencing pure poetry, heart and emotion. Franz Liszt thought he was the most poetic composer he'd ever heard and he'd heard Chopin. I'm not one to consider the last two movements as "trivial." After the heartfelt 2nd movement, they offer some sense of uplift and cheer, which is rather amazing because Schubert wasn't long for this world... I hear them as welcomed contrast.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Felix Mendelssohn said:


> I'm ok with Schubert's lieder, but to me his d 960
> 
> 1. Is traditional in terms of harmony and form
> 2. Is extremely long-winded with unnecessary repeats
> ...


Just listen to it! It speaks for itself!


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Sometimes a transcendental experience can be over-analyzed. Technical analysis can oftimes explain how a piece "works," but it can't find its soul.


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## samm (Jul 4, 2011)

I expect this might end up like that other thread about Schubert. Doesn't matter how much actual musical analysis is offered, those who insist Schubert is a genius can produce a never-ending stream of mitigating circumstances and 'get outta jail free' cards. As a last resort your musical knowledge may be questioned (by people with limited musical knowledge).

Franz Schubert will be a great composer forever. It has been decided.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

It took quite a while and several recordings before I began appreciating that work. There's much more to it than some self-complacent Biedermeier Gemutlichkeit. And recordings can be extremely different from each other, illustrating different aspects of this.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

samm said:


> Doesn't matter how much actual musical analysis is offered, those who insist Schubert is a genius can produce a never-ending stream of mitigating circumstances and 'get outta jail free' cards. As a last resort your musical knowledge may be questioned (by people with limited musical knowledge).


I was unaware that Schubert was in need of mitigating circumstances and "get outta jail free" cards. What "musical knowledge" do you have that demonstrates these contentions?


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

I never thought of Schubert's piano music, aside from the Impromptus and perhaps Moments Musicaux, in a league with Beethoven, especially Beethoven's final 5 sonatas. 

I know others think differently, that D. 960 is a masterpiece of highest order. Among them Herbert Russcol's 1968 book called it "...one of the greatest (piano sonatas) by Schubert of anyone else...There is little in music as profound as this sonata."

Schubert in larger forms, including the piano sonatas, does not strike me the same as his shorter works and lieder. They all seem to me to follow the pattern of the "Great" C Major symphony with endless repetition of material, albeit inspired and original. For me they go on too long saying the same thing.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

The D.960, like several other Schubert works, can be improved by excision of unnecessary repeats. For this, I recommend Audacity. :devil:


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

KenOC said:


> The D.960, like several other Schubert works, can be improved by excision of unnecessary repeats. For this, I recommend Audacity. :devil:


try it on Glass and you will get 5 minutes of music from a 60 minute symphony :angel:


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Jacck said:


> try it on Glass and you will get 5 minutes of music from a 60 minute symphony :angel:


I tried it on the first movement of Beethoven's 5th and ended up with a "File too short" error.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> The D.960, like several other Schubert works, can be improved by excision of unnecessary repeats. For this, I recommend Audacity. :devil:


Actually it's quite the usual practice to omit some repeats in Schubert. It was many years before I heard the 9th symphony played with all repeats, and I could immediately see why (and I intend never to hear it that way again).

Repetition is an essential element in Schubert's music; it helps to create a sense of timelessness and peace, which he then proceeds to disrupt with disturbing modulations and shifts in texture, like fearful thoughts arising from the subconscious. That juxtaposition is one of the things that make Schubert Schubert. The formal repeats, though, may be another matter.


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## Machiavel (Apr 12, 2010)

Funny you pick the hammerklavier. to me thats just what it is someone angry bashing at a piano. More and more I hear Beethoven deafness in his workh. Sometimes I dont see the beauty in his music, something that never happens with all the great greats composers of the standard repertoire. I think he went heavy and angrey at times because the higher repertoire was lost to him.

... and the slow movement of the hammer, my god its slow, long and goes nowhere. Just my two cents


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## Swosh (Feb 25, 2018)

Some people are new here, and people are becoming new classical lovers every so often...


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Felix Mendelssohn said:


> How? How come in this case people can throw aside logical judgements when deciding the worth of a piece?


The hype for Schubert on this forum seems a little bizzare at times. Here's a poll where Schubert's String Quintet in C getting more votes as "the greatest string quintet" than all other string quintets by other composers combined.
What is the greatest string quintet?


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> it helps to create a sense of timelessness and peace, which he then proceeds to disrupt with disturbing modulations and shifts in texture, like fearful thoughts arising from the subconscious. That juxtaposition is one of the things that make Schubert Schubert.


This sounds like a description of Morton Feldman's late music.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

hammeredklavier said:


> The hype for Schubert on this forum seems a little bizzare at times. Here's a poll where Schubert's String Quintet in C getting more votes as "the greatest string quintet" than all other string quintets by other composers combined.
> What is the greatest string quintet?


I think that appreciation for Schubert's great C major quintet is hardly unique to this site. Poll any group of classical listeners and that is going to come out on top as far as quintets go, largely due to familiarity, but it IS a great work. The only other string quintets on that list I've heard are the two Mozart quintets, and while I think they are phenomenal and certainly the equal to the Schubert quintet, I still just enjoy the Schubert more.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

hammeredklavier said:


> The hype for Schubert on this forum seems a little bizzare at times. Here's a poll where Schubert's String Quintet in C getting more votes as "the greatest string quintet" than all other string quintets by other composers combined.
> What is the greatest string quintet?


More than 200 people voted in that poll. The people have spoken; there's nothing bizarre going on. Schubert's a very popular composer.


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

What I could say is that the Austrian is doing everything on purpose. He is a great systematic composer, very difficult to be played (in the piano) and with a lot of hidden elements in his music, which is giving me a chameleon's feeling every time I listen to it. (I mean that I receive different feelings and emotions with every new hearing...)


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

hammeredklavier said:


> The hype for Schubert on this forum seems a little bizzare at times. Here's a poll where Schubert's String Quintet in C getting more votes as "the greatest string quintet" than all other string quintets by other composers combined.
> What is the greatest string quintet?


The String Quintet of Schubert is widely recognized, far beyond this forum, as one of the greatest chamber works of all time. Many people (myself included) are deeply, deeply moved by the music. Why is this so very difficult for you to accept?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Mandryka said:


> This sounds like a description of Morton Feldman's late music.


Interesting and original comparison. I've long felt that there's something modern about Schubert.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

How are we to understand the fact that a few people are astonished that a composer's music is widely esteemed and loved? What can we say when those few invest improbable amounts of time and effort in proving that the rest of us have been conned?


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> How are we to understand the fact that a few people are astonished that a composer's music is widely esteemed and loved? What can we say when those few invest improbable amounts of time and effort in proving that the rest of us have been conned?


No composer is perfect, Schubert's included. But someone must have very small musical understanding (and nothing better to do) by trying to find some imperfections in such greatness.


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

Machiavel said:


> Funny you pick the hammerklavier. to me thats just what it is someone angry bashing at a piano. More and more I hear Beethoven deafness in his workh. Sometimes I dont see the beauty in his music, something that never happens with all the great greats composers of the standard repertoire. I think he went heavy and angrey at times because the higher repertoire was lost to him.
> 
> ... and the slow movement of the hammer, my god its slow, long and goes nowhere. Just my two cents


Very kindly, my friend, allow me to disagree with every word of your post, which (for me always) is unthinkable wrong.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Swosh said:


> Some people are new here, and people are becoming new classical lovers every so often...


Refreshing such a comment. 
(NO pun intended)


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

hammeredklavier said:


> The hype for Schubert on this forum seems a little bizzare at times. Here's a poll where Schubert's String Quintet in C getting more votes as "the greatest string quintet" than all other string quintets by other composers combined.
> What is the greatest string quintet?


Nothing bizarre in peopkevotingfor a great and sublime work which also happens to be highly enjoyable to listen to.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Machiavel said:


> Funny you pick the hammerklavier. to me thats just what it is someone angry bashing at a piano. More and more I hear Beethoven deafness in his works. Sometimes I dont see the beauty in his music, something that never happens with all the great greats composers of the standard repertoire. I think he went heavy and angry at times because the higher repertoire was lost to him.
> 
> ... and the slow movement of the hammer, my god its slow, long and goes nowhere. Just my two cents


It's not a popular point of view, but I also feel that Beethoven's deafness - the suffering of it, the reactions to it, or his frustrations from it - can clearly be heard or sensed in the Hammerklavier. But I believe his outlet as a composer was probably what saved him from total madness, because, like a spider, he had to keep spinning his web when there was nothing else left to do. Schubert had different problems. He was dying and yet he was constantly flooded with inspiration that he'd never get all of it down on paper. I'm not sure what's worse. Both of them, I would imagine, with death providing the ultimate relief. I do not go along with the belief that there's no relationship between suffering and art... and I speak from personal experience where it's added depth and understanding of life, though it's not always a prerequisite for being creative.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Larkenfield said:


> It's not a popular point of view, but *I also feel that Beethoven's deafness - the suffering of it, the reactions to it, or his frustrations from it - can clearly be heard or sensed in the Hammerklavier*. But I believe his outlet as a composer was probably what saved him from total madness, because, like a spider, he had to keep spinning his web when there was nothing else left to do. Schubert had different problems. He was dying and yet he was constantly flooded with inspiration that he'd never get all of it down on paper. I'm not sure what's worse. Both of them, I would imagine, with death providing the ultimate relief. I do not go along with the belief that there's no relationship between suffering and art... and I speak from personal experience where it's added depth and understanding of life, though it's not always a prerequisite for being creative.


What is in bold represents what I think aswell, and for me this actually _adds_ interest to the piece. The profound expression that, I believe, Beethoven reaches in the last two movements of Op. 106 are almost unmatched from what I know of the solo keyboard literature in my humble opinion.

I also love Schubert by the way.


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

I prefer the G major, personally. But that's just me.


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