# counterpoint outside common practice harmony



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

First of all, it can be still considered counterpoint or it's just a way to say that a piece has a two or more melodies one against the other? I'm a bit confused about it.

For instance what about something like this?


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## Amadea (Apr 15, 2021)

norman bates said:


> First of all, it can be still considered counterpoint or it's just a way to say that a piece has a two or more melodies one against the other? I'm a bit confused about it.


Yes it sounds like counterpoint to me. Counterpoint is the relashionship between 2 or more melody lines (voices) which played at the same time form harmonies which create a tension and a resolution (depending on the intervals between the notes), the melodies can have different rhythms. I'm no expert, I have a very basic knowledge of music theory, but the video seems a case of counterpoint. Sorry for my english I hope this was helpful.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

I know that counterpoint is about melodies being played together, but in common practice I think there are certain rules to follow, and I doubt that it's true for music like the etude above. That's why I'm curious if it's still considered counterpoint, at least from a technical point of view.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

The compositional/auditory concept of counterpoint is still considered such even if it doesn't conform to the speices counterpoint methodology used in CPT.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

norman bates said:


> I know that counterpoint is about melodies being played together, but in common practice I think there are certain rules to follow, and I doubt that it's true for music like the etude above. That's why I'm curious if it's still considered counterpoint, at least from a technical point of view.


That clip is made up of fairly common 20th century gestures for guitar, but is not contrapuntal. However, there are several texts devoted to 20th century counterpoint or atonal counterpoint that are taught in music curricula.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

Counterpoint is abundant in popular music too. The following is admittedly not the best example, but it's the first one that popped into my head

(the vocals from 3:18-3:40)


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> The compositional/auditory concept of counterpoint is still considered such even if it doesn't conform to the speices counterpoint methodology used in CPT.





SanAntone said:


> That clip is made up of fairly common 20th century gestures for guitar, but is not contrapuntal. However, there are several texts devoted to 20th century counterpoint or atonal counterpoint that are taught in music curricula.


the confusion is not going away, you two are saying basically the opposite.
But SanAntone: why do you think the etude above is not counterpoint?


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

norman bates said:


> the confusion is not going away, you two are saying basically the opposite.
> But SanAntone: why don't you think is counterpoint?


Yeah, I'm curious why SanAntone says those don't technically qualify as contrapuntal. I could very well be wrong


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## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

Most Schoenberg is highly contrapuntal. Ditto with Hindemith.

I would agree that there are contrapuntal gestures in the guitar piece you linked.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Polyphony is just when there are more than one voice. In counterpoint the voices have to relate to each other according to special rules.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

norman bates said:


> the confusion is not going away, you two are saying basically the opposite.
> But SanAntone: why do you think the etude above is not counterpoint?


Because there isn't more than one melody creating counterpoint, just some separation and some single note movement - but that is because of the nature of the guitar and the limitations of playing a melody with accompaniment.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

SanAntone said:


> Because there isn't more than one melody creating counterpoint, just some separation and some single note movement - but that is because of the nature of the guitar and the limitations of playing a melody with accompaniment.


actually a lot of counterpoint works great on the guitar, Bach being the more famous example, but Scarlatti or Buxtehude too sound amazing. In any case I'm not sure what you mean with "single note movement". There are clearly more than one voice moving independently and lines that in that regard to me sound a lot like those baroque composers (altough the harmony is very different)


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

norman bates said:


> actually a lot of counterpoint works great on the guitar, Bach being the more famous example, but Scarlatti or Buxtehude too sound amazing. In any case I'm not sure what you mean with "single note movement". There are clearly more than one voice moving independently and lines that in that regard to me sound a lot like those baroque composers (altough the harmony is very different)


I guess we listened to different clips. The one I listened to was nothing like a Bach lute work. What I heard is the standard manner in which a solo guitarist plays homophonic music. Because of the limitations of a guitar sometimes all the notes in the chord and melody cannot be sounded simultaneously and the player will stagger them. This might give the false impression of polyphonic motion.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

SanAntone said:


> I guess we listened to different clips. The one I listened to was nothing like a Bach lute work. What I heard is the standard manner in which a solo guitarist plays homophonic music. Because of the limitations of a guitar sometimes all the notes in the chord and melody cannot be sounded simultaneously and the player will stagger them. This might give the false impression of polyphonic motion.


if I'm not wrong there's contrary motion in certain points.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

It's counterpoint, marginally. No particular rules are required for counterpoint, just independent melodic lines played against one another. But SanAntone saying it's not contrapuntal has good sense behind it because there's little independence of line in this case. I've transcribed the first six measures and, as you can see, on the first beat of each measure we have a major 7th. So it's fundamentally elaborated parallel motion. Nevertheless, I think the difference in rhythm makes it marginally contrapuntal(?)


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

EdwardBast said:


> It's counterpoint, marginally. No particular rules are required for counterpoint, just independent melodic lines played against one another. But SanAntone saying it's not contrapuntal has good sense behind it because there's little independence of line in this case. I've transcribed the first six measures and, as you can see, on the first beat of each measure we have a major 7th. So it's fundamentally elaborated parallel motion. Nevertheless, I think the difference in rhythm makes it marginally contrapuntal(?)
> 
> View attachment 154967


If this is counterpoint it is a very crude example. To me it doesn't sound like two independent melodies so much as one note in the lower register as a bass slowly (half notes) outlining two chords (A-flat Maj7 - E-flat Maj) and the upper notes performing embellishment over it.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

It's IMPLIED counterpoint


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

chu42 said:


> Most Schoenberg is highly contrapuntal.


5:15


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

premont said:


> Polyphony is just when there are more than one voice. In counterpoint the voices have to relate to each other according to special rules.


there are "multiple voices" in the homophonic sections of




it's just that they're not rhythmically independent


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

SanAntone said:


> If this is counterpoint it is a very crude example. To me it doesn't sound like two independent melodies so much as one note in the lower register as a bass slowly (half notes) outlining two chords (A-flat Maj7 - E-flat Maj) and the upper notes performing embellishment over it.


I think you're right. Looking at it again and at how the parallel M7ths pop out on the strong beats, it really is just parallel lines. No independence, so not really separate melodies.


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## level82rat (Jun 20, 2019)

@EdwardBlast
How did you transcribe that? By ear? And how long did it take?


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

level82rat said:


> @EdwardBlast
> How did you transcribe that? By ear? And how long did it take?


Got out a guitar (actually it was out already because I had been practicing a transcription of a King Crimson tune), watched him play it. Imitated. Maybe 20-30 minutes with the entry in Sibelius, which was up and running. When I hear something systematic, like this, I sometimes feel compelled to puzzle it out.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

EdwardBast said:


> It's counterpoint, marginally. No particular rules are required for counterpoint, just independent melodic lines played against one another. But SanAntone saying it's not contrapuntal has good sense behind it because there's little independence of line in this case. I've transcribed the first six measures and, as you can see, on the first beat of each measure we have a major 7th. So it's fundamentally elaborated parallel motion. Nevertheless, I think the difference in rhythm makes it marginally contrapuntal(?)
> 
> View attachment 154967


that's a nice work but I have the impression that you stopped right before there's something more interesting happening in the piece...


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## Amadea (Apr 15, 2021)

I honestly don't get how that is not counterpoint. Basic, rude ok, to me still counterpoint though. I think the confusion comes from the different rhythms and the fact the second voice starts slow and doesn't sound so independent. Did you listen to it all or just 5 sec? I hear two independent melodic lines.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Amadea said:


> I honestly don't get how that is not counterpoint. Basic, rude ok, to me still counterpoint though. I think the confusion comes from the different rhythms and the fact the second voice starts slow and doesn't sound so independent. Did you listen to it all or just 5 sec? I hear two independent melodic lines.


I listened to the whole thing. If it's not counterpoint, and I allow that some might consider it marginally contrapuntal because of the rhythmic differences between voices, it's for the same reason this isn't counterpoint - it's all parallel motion:


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> It's IMPLIED counterpoint


Interesting point. Then there's really no counterpoint in the fugue in the Bach third violin sonata, either.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

norman bates said:


> that's a nice work but I have the impression that you stopped right before there's something more interesting happening in the piece...


I stopped before I invested too much time and effort 

In any case, it sounded to me like the parallel motion continues but with two notes against one rather than four against one. I could be wrong - but I'm not going to find out (see first line of this post).


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

I think Ed is right. You could add some arpeggiation and non-chord tones to 








and make the texture look like the music in the video.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

hammeredklavier said:


> It's IMPLIED counterpoint





consuono said:


> Interesting point. Then there's really no counterpoint in the fugue in the Bach third violin sonata, either.


I do not see any point at all. And hammerklavier doesn't score any points from me with that post.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> --------------------------------


I dunno. The half notes in the lower voice could function as a sort of cantus firmus below the upper voice. That's chorale prelude writing 101.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

premont said:


> I do not see any point at all. And hammerklavier doesn't score any points from me with that post.


I was being sarcastic.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

hammeredklavier said:


> I think Ed is right. You could add some arpeggiation and melodies to
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wise editing, because the recurrent major 7th's are not arpeggiated in the score.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

consuono said:


> I was being sarcastic.


Yes, I thought so.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

consuono said:


> I dunno. The half notes in the lower voice could function as a sort of cantus firmus below the upper voice. That's chorale prelude writing 101.


But still the insistent parallel motion would be highly unusual even in embellished two part organa (eg Leonin) or organ music proper (eg in Buxheimer organ book).
Do you have any serious examples of that kind of writing in chorale preludes?


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

premont said:


> But still the insistent parallel motion would be highly unusual even in embellished two part organa (eg Leonin) or organ music proper (eg in Buxheimer organ book).
> Do you have any serious examples of that kind of writing in chorale preludes?


No, just a general observation. This particular example may be highly unusual but held notes in the bass over a melodic line is pretty common, and yes it's contrapuntal imo.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

EdwardBast said:


> I stopped before I invested too much time and effort
> 
> In any case, it sounded to me like the parallel motion continues but with two notes against one rather than four against one. I could be wrong - but I'm not going to find out (see first line of this post).


listen between 0:13 and 0:14 for instance. To me that sounds as contrary motion*. There's a line going up while the other one is descending. 
To be clear, I'm playing a bit of devils's advocate, because like I've said I'm not entirely sure if it's true what GucciManeisthenewWebern (nice nickname) is saying, basically that as long as there are melodies one against the other anything goes (which would be fine in any case as a explaination) or if it's a bit forced. That said, Antoine Boyer (besides being an outstanding guitarist who plays also baroque music and has made that collection of etudes all called "counterpoint") seems to be a guy who knows a lot about theory. But at the end of the day I was interested in general about this, more than about this specific piece.
I could post another one:





*and I'm not even sure if the absence of contrary motion means that something is not counterpoint.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

I really don't think the guitar is a good instrument for playing counterpoint. Why are we focusing on it so much?

The classic examples of polyphony or either the Renaissance vocal music or Bach keyboard works, the inventions, sinfonias, and fugues. The hallmark of contrapuntal texture is independence of several melodic lines, and I think a guitar is limited in being able to express true polyphony.

An d if you want polyphony outside common practice era, look to the 20th century string quartets by Bartok, Shostakovich and Carter. Carter, especially, made independence of the voices a prime concern.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

SanAntone said:


> I really don't think the guitar is a good instrument for playing counterpoint. Why are we focusing on it so much?


Because (altough I disagree about the premise that the guitar is not a good instrument to play counterpoint, it's hard but it sounds wonderful on it, this is a more traditional example: 




and this is a series of improvisations 



 ) I play the guitar and I was listening to that kind of stuff. 
But in any case, considering those you are mentioning, I guess that you think in any case that "anything goes" basically, and if there are melodies one against the other is counterpoint, or am I wrong?


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

SanAntone said:


> I really don't think the guitar is a good instrument for playing counterpoint. Why are we focusing on it so much?
> 
> The classic examples of polyphony or either the Renaissance vocal music or Bach keyboard works, the inventions, sinfonias, and fugues. The hallmark of contrapuntal texture is independence of several melodic lines, and I think a guitar is limited in being able to express true polyphony.
> 
> An d if you want polyphony outside common practice era, look to the 20th century string quartets by Bartok, Shostakovich and Carter. Carter, especially, made independence of the voices a prime concern.


The guitar isn't as good for counterpoint as a keyboard, obviously, but come on. It's capable:





But to stay on topic, yes the Shostakovich preludes and fugues are great examples. So is one of my favorites, Hindemith's Ludus Tonalis.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

norman bates said:


> Because (altough I disagree about the premise that the guitar is not a good instrument to play counterpoint, it's hard but it sounds wonderful on it) I play the guitar and I was listening to that kind of stuff.
> But in any case, considering those you are mentioning, I guess that you think in any case that "anything goes" basically, and if there are melodies one against the other is counterpoint, or am I wrong?


I am not sure what you mean with "anything goes."

In the 20th century counterpoint and polyphony made a huge resurgence from the Romantic era which was predominantly homophonic. If by "anything goes" you are thinking of abandoning diatonic harmony, then yes, counterpoint has nothing to do with whether the music is tonal or not.

Independent lines is what defines counterpoint. It is not melody with accompaniment (homophony), but a number of independent melodies creating a texture which can describe tonality as with Bach, but also be non-tonal as is much of the counterpoint of the 20th century.

If by "anything goes" you mean that without diatonic tonality a composer is not bound by any harmonic context and can write any two or more lines with no concern of the sound they create, then no, I don't think that is accurate. Any modern composer worth his salt has a sound he is going for and whether it is contrapuntally created or not the resulting harmony will be according to his intuitive or rigorous design.

While it is possible to play counterpoint on a guitar, I don't consider it the best instrument for it. I studied the marimba and played Bach fugues on it - but it is also not the best instrument for that either.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

But in my experience guitar arrangements of keyboard music usually have to include compromises (omitting some notes for technical reasons or transposing some notes an octave up or down), thereby sometimes making the original counterpoint less obvious.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

premont said:


> But in my experience guitar arrangements of keyboard music usually have to include compromises (omitting some notes for technical reasons or transposing some notes an octave up or down), thereby sometimes making the original counterpoint less obvious.


Exactly, which is why I said it is not the best, or even a good, instrument for polyphony.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

norman bates said:


> listen between 0:13 and 0:14 for instance. To me that sounds as *contrary motion**. There's a line going up while the other one is descending.
> To be clear, I'm playing a bit of devils's advocate, because like I've said I'm not entirely sure if it's true what GucciManeisthenewWebern (nice nickname) is saying, basically that *as long as there are melodies one against the other* anything goes (which would be fine in any case as a explaination) or if it's a bit forced.


Well, the texture itself is homophonic.

the voices in the "homophonic sections" of this is in "contrary motion":





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chorale
"Chorale is the name of several related musical forms originating in the music genre of the Lutheran chorale:
Such a tune presented in a homophonic or homorhythmic harmonisation, usually four-part harmony (e.g. Bach's four-part chorales, or the chorale included in the second movement of Mahler's Fifth Symphony)"


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

SanAntone said:


> I am not sure what you mean with "anything goes."
> 
> In the 20th century counterpoint and polyphony made a huge resurgence from the Romantic era which was predominantly homophonic. If by "anything goes" you are thinking of abandoning diatonic harmony, then yes, counterpoint has nothing to do with whether the music is tonal or not.


yes, that was my doubt basically. 
Now I want to ask you one thing: do you consider early jazz with collective improvisations as a form of counterpoint?



SanAntone said:


> While it is possible to play counterpoint on a guitar, I don't consider it the best instrument for it. I studied the marimba and played Bach fugues on it - but it is also not the best instrument for that either.


well the guitar certainly has certain limitations (for instance on a regular guitar with six strings in standard tuning the lines have be contained between two octaves, or a slightly more that that), but that said it sounds great on it. I've heard great interpretations even of the Goldberg Variations on it.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

premont said:


> But in my experience guitar arrangements of keyboard music usually have to include compromises (omitting some notes for technical reasons or transposing some notes an octave up or down), thereby sometimes making the original counterpoint less obvious.


I wrote my last comment before reading this but yes, I can totally see how this is a limitation.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

"contrary motion" isn't just one voice going up and another voice going down. It could also be one voice going up/down and another voice not moving.

A pop song with chordal accompaniment; if you consider the accompanying chords, the bassline, a "melody on its own", you could say that the main melody is in "contrary motion" with the bassline. 
Some pop songs have basslines that are "catchy" by themselves. Whether you call them "melodies" or not is up to you.
The 2nd movement theme from Beethoven's 7th symphony, which Bernstein regarded as "not melodic",
-depending on how you see it, it's a good melody.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

norman bates said:


> Now I want to ask you one thing: do you consider early jazz with collective improvisations as a form of counterpoint?


Yes, it can be a very good example in the hands of experienced musicians.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

hammeredklavier said:


> Well, the texture itself is homophonic.
> 
> the voices in the "homophonic sections" of this is in "contrary motion":
> 
> ...


but looking at the video and listening to it again I clearly hear parts that are polyphonic with not just independent notes harmonized in contrary motion, but also lines that are independent (like say between 0:26-0:34) with the two voices having different rhythms, if I'm not wrong


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## Amadea (Apr 15, 2021)

norman bates said:


> Because (altough I disagree about the premise that the guitar is not a good instrument to play counterpoint, it's hard but it sounds wonderful on it, this is a more traditional example.


Then, can I humbly suggest you to stick to baroque repertoire by baroque composers instead of scores by young musicians? I mean, at least you'll be sure there's really counterpoint :lol: I think Vivaldi has done great pieces for guitar?


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> "contrary motion" isn't just one voice going up and another voice going down. *It could also be one voice going up/down and another voice not moving.*


That is oblique, not contrary, motion.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

SanAntone said:


> That is oblique, not contrary, motion.


Right. There's a lot of contrary, oblique, similar motions in part-writing


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Amadea said:


> Then, can I humbly suggest you to stick to baroque repertoire by baroque composers instead of scores by young musicians? I mean, at least you'll be sure there's really counterpoint :lol: I think Vivaldi has done great pieces for guitar?


why should I do that? I love modern music.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

SanAntone said:


> Exactly, which is why I said it is not the best, or even a good, instrument for polyphony.


But it's much better than a violin, for which Bach wrote polyphonic music (i.e., fugues). Or was that not counterpoint?


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

consuono said:


> But it's much better than a violin, for which Bach write polyphonic music. Or was that not counterpoint?


An afterthought: One of the incitements for lutenists to arrange Bach's solo violin and solo cello music for their instrument might be the wish of being able to realize the polyphony better and maybe particularly the implied counterpoint.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

premont said:


> An afterthought: One of the incitements for lutenists to arrange Bach's solo violin and solo cello music for their instrument might be the wish of being able to realize the polyphony better and maybe particularly the implied counterpoint.


Bach of course did just that with the fifth cello suite, whether the lautenwerck was intended or not (although I do think a roughly contemporaneous version in lute tablature exists). It's interesting to compare the two.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> Right. There's a lot of contrary, oblique, similar motions in part-writing


There are four types of motion: parallel, similar, contrary and oblique. Contrary is usually considered the best and parallel to be avoided as much as possible.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

SanAntone said:


> parallel to be avoided as much as possible.


Yeah. especially 5ths and 8ths


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

consuono said:


> Bach of course did just that with the fifth cello suite, whether the lautenwerck was intended or not (although I do think a roughly contemporaneous version in lute tablature exists). It's interesting to compare the two.


Probably the lautenwerck was intended. Lutenists say that it is virtually unplayable on lute. I have a number of lute recordings of the piece but haven't checked whether they make compromises as to the voice leading.


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