# On conjectural completions of masterpieces.



## Steber (Jul 11, 2014)

I would appreciate the forum's opinion on conjectural completions. We have been left with incomplete masterworks in the repertoire which musicologists have attempted to complete based on sketches and knowledge of the composers methodology. A few examples are: Bach's Art of Fugue, Mozart's Requiem and, in more recent times Mahler's 10th symphony and Bruckner's 9th symphony. Do you think that conjectural completions are valid? Personally, I would say that I have enjoyed listening to them and have felt that they offer a helpful view of what could have been written.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Mahler's 10th is not like the others in that it's structurally complete. The others require the person doing the completion to compose material in order to have a complete piece, while Mahler's 10th only requires orchestration and some detail. That said, Mahler's orchestration is so individual that it's still next to impossible to conjecture what he would have done with it, and nothing we have will be as good as his version would have been.


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## JACE (Jul 18, 2014)

I think they're valid -- as long as listeners and performers recognize that they are "asterisked." They'll never be the same as fully realized works by the composers.

Another unfinished work that you didn't mention: Charles Ives' Universe Symphony. There have been at least two "realizations" of this work by different composer/collaborators. In his writings, Ives actually _invited_ others to complete the piece.

But hearing these "realizations" of the Universe is not the same as hearing a work composed solely by Ives. Inevitably, they reflect some of the collaborating composer's assumptions, tastes, and predilections.

That's my take.


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## Radames (Feb 27, 2013)

It would be pretty jarring to hear some works end where the composer stopped working on the piece. I'm thinking about Puccini's Turandot especially. In that case it is necessary to have the work completed to listen to it. Bruckner's 9th works really well as a 3 movement work so I don't think I would like to hear some construct of a finale.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Radames said:


> It would be pretty jarring to hear some works end where the composer stopped working on the piece. I'm thinking about Puccini's Turandot especially.


Turandot is even more jarring if you actually listen to the standard ending by Alfano than when you end where Puccini ended.


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## merlinus (Apr 12, 2014)

I very much enjoy the completion of Mozart's Requiem, but not any others. I greatly prefer the end of Contrapunctus XIV to be exactly where JSB left off, and only listen to the fully orchestrated Adagio of Mahler 10.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Mahlerian said:


> Mahler's 10th is not like the others in that it's structurally complete. The others require the person doing the completion to compose material in order to have a complete piece, while Mahler's 10th only requires orchestration and some detail. That said, Mahler's orchestration is so individual that it's still next to impossible to conjecture what he would have done with it, and nothing we have will be as good as his version would have been.


Good points. In Mahler's case I consider his 9th to be unfinished, though complete. He didn't get a chance to make 'corrections' after hearing it. The 10th, well that ain't even in it.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Ukko said:


> Good points. In Mahler's case I consider his 9th to be unfinished, though complete. He didn't get a chance to make 'corrections' after hearing it. The 10th, well that ain't even in it.


Do you consider Das Lied von der Erde "incomplete" as well?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I may be in the minority, but Bruckner's 9th sounds perfectly complete, ending as it does with the great adagio.
The very ending of that adagio sounds like complete resignation and farewell to me.
Nothing else needed to be written after that.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Mahlerian said:


> Do you consider Das Lied von der Erde "incomplete" as well?


I try not to consider Das Lied. There's singing in it. Only Ferrier can force me to listen.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Aramis said:


> Turandot is even more jarring if you actually listen to the standard ending by Alfano than when you end where Puccini ended.


There's a better completion of Turandot by Berio. I guess the only reason that it's not used more often is that the performers can't be bothered to learn it.

Are the Handel keyboard suites complete? I don't mean the great 8, but the ones that come after.


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

I think it really depends on the work and the completion. Mozart's requiem didn't require a lot, but his c minor Mass needs to end right where he left it. I admit to not really caring about what happens to the Art of the Fugue., As Mahlerian has said, the Mahler Tenth is merely a performing version of something that was largely complete -- and the real fun is judging the various completions for "Mahlerness." Yes, he never heard the Ninth or Das Lied, but judging from how he fiddled with virtually all his works every time he conducted, you could consider his entire ouvre a work in progress. Bruckner's Ninth is wonderful as is. Around 1970 some Soviet musicologist tried to fashion a Tchaikovsky Seventh (using bits and pieces from here and there and a movement from an uncompleted Third Piano Concerto). It was pretty bad, but made Columbia a lot of money. Schoenberg orchestrated Brahms' g-minor piano quartet and created something quite Brahmsian until he went all Schoenberg on us at the end and included a xylophone. (It's sometimes been referred to as "Brahms' Fifth.")


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

I don't mind any form of completion of unfinished works, they are often fun to hear, but are rarely completely successful. 

/ptr


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## Steber (Jul 11, 2014)

Thank you Mahlerian, I enjoy listening to Deryk Cooke's performing version of Mahler's 10th. But I agree that Mahler would have made more of the orchestration, which I feel, as a listener, is a little sparse compared to the complete symphonies. For me, Mahler is intensely original, the expressive master of orchestral colour.


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2014)

For my part, I'd like to know if there are any other kinds of completions besides conjectural. (Assuming that we're not counting composers' completions of their own works, for obvious reasons. Well, for one obvious reason.)


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

One of my favorite pieces, Alban Berg's _Lulu_, was completed (basically the orchestration of Act 3) by Friedrich Cerha. He used Berg's piano reduction for Act 3, the libretto, some hand-written papers by Berg, and Lulu's suite. With this material, and Berg's intention of using symmetry as the driving force for the opera, Cerha completed a great job. It's clear we will never know how Berg's third act would have developed, but personally I'm persuaded it would be very similar to Cerha's, and I much prefer to attend a performance of the complete _Lulu_, than the incomplete work left by Berg.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Aramis said:


> Turandot is even more jarring if you actually listen to the standard ending by Alfano than when you end where Puccini ended.


Puccini wrote himself into a corner with Turandot; the only way out was to die and let others deal with it.


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## Radames (Feb 27, 2013)

amfortas said:


> Puccini wrote himself into a corner with Turandot; the only way out was to die and let others deal with it.


Maybe. I'm not sure how he could end it properly. But I think any ending is better than just stopping when Liù dies. Too bad he died before he could find the characteristic, lovely, unusual melody he was looking for. A great Puccinian melody could have made up for dramatic shortcomings.


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