# Sir Simon Rattle



## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Sir Simon Rattle








Sir Simon (Denis) Rattle became one of the world's leading conductors at an unusually early age. As a boy, Rattle studied percussion; at the age of 11, he appeared as a percussionist with the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra. He joined the National Youth Orchestra, again as a percussionist, and began conducting when he was a teenager. At fifteen, he founded and conducted the Liverpool Sinfonia.

From 1971 to 1974, Rattle studied at the Royal Academy of Music in London. In his graduation year, still in his teens, he entered the John Player International Conductors' Competition and won first prize. He was soon appointed assistant conductor of the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra, remaining with the orchestra until 1976.

In 1976 Rattle made his United States debut on tour with the London Schools Symphony Orchestra. His first American performance with a professional orchestra was a concert with the Los Angeles Philharmonic Orchestra in 1979. In 1981 that orchestra named him principal guest conductor, a post he retained until 1994.

Rattle made his first Glyndebourne Festival appearance in 1977, and retained his association with that insititution, lead productions of operas from the Classical period on. From 1977 to 1980, he was assistant conductor of the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic. During this time, he also appeared frequently with major American orchestras.

Rattle's longest-lasting association with an orchestra began when the City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra named him its principal conductor and artistic adviser in 1980. With a change of title to music director in 1990, Rattle remained with the group until 1998. During their time together, both orchestra and the conductor attained remarkable artistic growth; they went on frequent wide-ranging tours, including visits to Europe, Scandinavia, the Far East, and North America. Even after giving up his directorship at the CBSO, Rattle continued to conduct the orchestra's ten-year Towards the Millennium festival of modern music. In 1992 Rattle became principal guest conductor of the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment; his appointments also include artistic adviser of the Birmingham Contemporary Music Group.

Rattle became a well-known television figure in Britain with an award-winning series, Leaving Home, the most extensive video production ever devoted to twentieth century orchestral music. He has made over 60 recordings, and today remains an exclusive EMI artist. Particularly honored are his recordings of Mahler's Symphony No. 2 (three Gramophone Awards), Gershwin's Porgy and Bess (Gramophone, International Record Critics' , and Charles Cros Grand Prix Awards), and Szymanowski's Stabat Mater (Echo Award). His projects for the year 2000 included Szymanowski's opera King Roger, Bernstein's Wonderful Town, and Mahler's Symphony No. 10.

The conductor has frequently appeared at the Salzburg Festival, and made 55 appearances with the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra before that ensemble announced in June 1999 that Rattle would become the orchestra's chief conductor and artistic adviser upon Claudio Abbado's retirement in 2002.

Rattle's other honors include Commander of the Order of the British Empire (1987) and a knighthood (1994).

[Article taken from All Music Guide]

Rattle has become one of my favorite conductors lately. Many months ago, I was found on this very forum absolutely blasting him to death. Hearing his interpretations of Mahler I slowly become a fan of his conducting. His approach is very interesting. He is a very detail oriented conductor and granted this always doesn't work, but he's certainly got his own style, which more than I can say for many condcutors around today. He can coax sounds out out of a Mahler symphony I haven't even heard before.

What do you guys think about him? He certainly is a controversial figure in classical music, but despite his critics, he certainly has found a fan in me.


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## handlebar (Mar 19, 2009)

I admire Rattle and his work.While his Beethoven symphony set is average, his Mahler is good. He seems to be able to keep his personal life out of the world spotlight as well,with a few exceptions.

As he gets older he does indeed get better.

Jim


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

handlebar said:


> I admire Rattle and his work.While his Beethoven symphony set is average, his Mahler is good. He seems to be able to keep his personal life out of the world spotlight as well,with a few exceptions.
> 
> As he gets older he does indeed get better.
> 
> Jim


I only look to Rattle for his strengths: Shostakovich, Mahler, Britten, Stravinsky, Szymanowski, Debussy, Ravel, Bartok, and Sibelius.

He's not particularly good in early Romantic or Classical Era music. I found his Berlioz to be mediocre at best. He certainly can't match the power, grace, and emotion of Sir Colin Davis.

I have read many reviews about his Beethoven, but honestly I doubt he or anyone can top Claudio Abbado's live set on Deutsche Grammophon.


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## handlebar (Mar 19, 2009)

I forgot about the Sibelius. I own and still forgot. I prefer the Gibson set on Chandos but admit Rattle is a good Sibelian.

Jim


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

handlebar said:


> I forgot about the Sibelius. I own and still forgot. I prefer the Gibson set on Chandos but admit Rattle is a good Sibelian.
> 
> Jim


I prefer the Osmo Vanska set to all of them, but Rattle is a fine Sibelian.


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

His Mahler and particularly his Strauss are fantastic. I've never been disappointed by any of his recordings.


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## handlebar (Mar 19, 2009)

Bach said:


> His Mahler and particularly his Strauss are fantastic. I've never been disappointed by any of his recordings.


I would say his Beethoven is rather pedestrian. For Beethoven symphonies i prefer the Gardiner set. His Strauss is good, i agree.

Jim


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

I don't have his Beethoven, and I wouldn't buy it - he's not a classical specialist.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Bach said:


> I don't have his Beethoven, and I wouldn't buy it - he's not a classical specialist.


No he isn't. His specialities are in the late-Romantic and 20th Century repertoire. I always wished he would have done some Hindemith.


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

I'm surprised he hasn't - and I agree that it would certainly be a good project!


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

I've looked at his Porgy and Bess recording for a while now (now a part of EMI's "Great Recordings of the Century"), but otherwise I've somewhat lost interest in Rattle. I agree that he has his place, but I tend to think it isn't my kind of place.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

World Violist said:


> I've looked at his Porgy and Bess recording for a while now (now a part of EMI's "Great Recordings of the Century"), but otherwise I've somewhat lost interest in Rattle. I agree that he has his place, but I tend to think it isn't my kind of place.


Have you ever heard his Mahler or Shostakovich, WV?


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

World Violist said:


> I've looked at his Porgy and Bess recording for a while now (now a part of EMI's "Great Recordings of the Century"), but otherwise I've somewhat lost interest in Rattle. I agree that he has his place, but I tend to think it isn't my kind of place.


Here's a great recording for you, WV:










He left me completely breathless with this performance. It totally outdoes the VPO performance. The audio is also simply outstanding. That first movement is really something special in the hands of Rattle. That's all it took after hearing that movement. I became a Rattle devotee after that.

Now granted, as I mentioned above, I think he's only good in the late-Romantic and 20th Century repertoires. As long as you stay within this framework, I think you'll be fine.


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## JoeGreen (Nov 17, 2008)

World Violist said:


> I've looked at his Porgy and Bess recording for a while now (now a part of EMI's "Great Recordings of the Century"), but otherwise I've somewhat lost interest in Rattle. I agree that he has his place, but I tend to think it isn't my kind of place.


That recording is undoubtably one of the Crown Jewels of my collection. I would never give it up for anything, so many perfect things in it.

But alas, I'll have to play devil's advocate and say i'm not particularly fond of his Mahler, it's satisfying, but not great.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

JoeGreen said:


> That recording is undoubtably one of the Crown Jewels of my collection. I would never give it up for anything, so many perfect things in it.
> 
> But alas, I'll have to play devil's advocate and say i'm not particularly fond of his Mahler, it's satisfying, but not great.


You don't like his Mahler? Have you heard the entire cycle?


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## Yosser (May 29, 2009)

Simon Rattle is a Liverpudlian, and so is damned to be an iconoclast. This explains much of his career -- e.g. persuading minor orchestras (CBSO) that they can play as well as anyone.

In Berlin he has been popular with the musicians, whose side he always takes in disputes, but gets mixed reviews from critics who like their music pure and still remember von K. 

Rattle has done much to broaden the appeal of classical music in Berlin, engaging in some interesting projects, one of which was made into the documentary film 'Rhythm is it'. The 'hero' of the film is Royston Palmer, a real life dance fanatic who specializes in persuading young people who have difficult lives to find themselves in dance. As I understand, SR invited Palmer to carry out a project with young people in Berlin's 'not so great' schools and supported him financially and spiritually. The project culminated in a full length performance of Le Sacre as a ballet, with the kids dancing and the Berlin Phil playing the score. If you haven't seen this movie, it's well worth a few hours of your time.

Interesting also is the way SR changed the BPh's New Year's Concert. Last time I listened in, he incorporated a gospel singer from the US and a 'jam session' where a solo was played (brilliantly) by a violist from the last desk of the violas! I thought it was a blast, but breaking with tradition is always hard, so SR took some stick from the more conservative critics.

In summary, I think SR's forte is expanding the appeal of classical music, and the audience for it. He is of course an excellent conductor. But a van Karajan he is not.


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## bdelykleon (May 21, 2009)

Yosser said:


> In summary, I think SR's forte is expanding the appeal of classical music, and the audience for it. He is of course an excellent conductor. But a van Karajan he is not.


But who expanded the appeal of classical music more than H. van K.?


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

bdelykleon said:


> But who expanded the appeal of classical music more than H. van K.?


Not many conductors have had the international appeal that Karajan had. Quite remarkable really.


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## jamzky (Jan 29, 2009)

Yes remarkable but he exploited the media. He was a bit egomaniacal by all accounts. I don't see why Rattle is in some way inferior to Karajan if that is what Yosser is driving at. Firstly he needs to have reached the end of his career first like Karajan did. Karajan has been over-hyped a lot by media. Now we are getting a much more balanced view of recording/performance history and indeed there are many great conductors, some better than Karajan in a whole range of repertoire. You can't be master of all styles and genres. 

J


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## bdelykleon (May 21, 2009)

jamzky said:


> I don't see why Rattle is in some way inferior to Karajan if that is what Yosser is driving at.


Surely Rattle is. Karajan may not be any good at Classical repertoire, his attempts at modern music may be laughable at best (Le sacre... ouch how bad can someone be?), but you can easily say KArajan forged a style, a way of playing, which in certain composers works very well (Bruckner, Wagner, and so on), I don't see Rattle coming anyway near that.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

bdelykleon said:


> Surely Rattle is. Karajan may not be any good at Classical repertoire, his attempts at modern music may be laughable at best (Le sacre... ouch how bad can someone be?), but you can easily say KArajan forged a style, a way of playing, which in certain composers works very well (Bruckner, Wagner, and so on), I don't see Rattle coming anyway near that.


Look all conductors have their strengths and weaknesses. MUSIC IS NOT A COMPETITION. Remember that.


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## JoeGreen (Nov 17, 2008)

Mirror Image said:


> You don't like his Mahler? Have you heard the entire cycle?


Nope, i actually perfer the Micheal Tilson Thomas one.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

JoeGreen said:


> Nope, i actually perfer the Micheal Tilson Thomas one.


MTT is a decent conductor. I enjoyed his Charles Ives, but that's about it. His Mahler's are overpriced.

I don't really need anymore Mahler anyway. I already own all the major cycles and individual recordings.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

jamzky said:


> He was a bit egomaniacal by all accounts.


Um... you do realize, of course, that just about any musical soloist of any kind must be somewhat egotistical at the very least to get what they're going for? I mean, Bernstein, von Karajan, Joshua Bell (oh God, don't get me started on him...), Anne-Sophie Mutter, MTT, Jean-Yves Thibaudet, Lang Lang, etc... they're all egomaniacs of some sort.

That said, I see exactly what you're getting at. Just thought I would put in my two cents-worth.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

World Violist said:


> Um... you do realize, of course, that just about any musical soloist of any kind must be somewhat egotistical at the very least to get what they're going for? I mean, Bernstein, von Karajan, Joshua Bell (oh God, don't get me started on him...), Anne-Sophie Mutter, MTT, Jean-Yves Thibaudet, Lang Lang, etc... they're all egomaniacs of some sort.
> 
> That said, I see exactly what you're getting at. Just thought I would put in my two cents-worth.


Yes, I agree, WV. The ego does play a part music whether we think it does or not. Karajan, Bernstein, Haitink, Martha Argerich, Emmanuel Pahud, etc. They're all ego-driven, but this doesn't take away from the music I don't think.


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2009)

I think some of Rattles best was when he was with the City of Birmingham Sym Orch, the Mahler 2nd with them is exceptional (1987) but them the CBSO is a very good orch.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Andante said:


> I think some of Rattles best was when he was with the City of Birmingham Sym Orch, the Mahler 2nd with them is exceptional (1987) but them the CBSO is a very good orch.


Exactly, Andante. That's what I've said all along. The CBSO are an excellent orchestra. Rattle really whipped them into shape.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

A friend of mine's obsession is that Rattle's name is pronounced 'rattal.' I think this is crap, but he said that he saw Rattle himself talk about this in an interview. I still think it's pronounced like a babies' rattle, I haven't heard radio anouncers say it any other way...

Anyway, I think that he is a fine interpreter of the modern repertoire. I've only heard some of his work with the CBSO, and it's pretty good.


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## jamzky (Jan 29, 2009)

I am in agreement with Mirror Image here - strengths and weaknesses. It is hard to see Karajan's purely musical contribution distinct from the 'Karajan phenomenon'. I think Rattle achieved great things in 20th century music and yes, made the CBSO a world class ensemble.


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## JoeGreen (Nov 17, 2008)

Rattle's work with the CBSO is great, I have this CD and I really love it.










and while early Romantic -Classical, Isn't his strong suit. This recording here of Beethoven's only Opera is actualy pretty good ...


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## Yosser (May 29, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> Not many conductors have had the international appeal that Karajan had. Quite remarkable really.


Of course, this is true. But van K. would have dropped dead before he directed Le Sacre in order to promote the self-awareness and self-confidence of kids from disadvantaged backgrounds. And if anyone had suggested to him that he try something different for the traditional Berlin Phil New Year concert, like a jam session with a jazz band and a gospel singer perhaps (?), that individual would rapidly have evaporated on the spot under the maestro's withering glare.

I guess there are different ways of viewing the phrase 'broadening the appeal'. In van K's case, one refers to aggressive promotion of the music. In Rattle's, add 'using music for socially worthy causes', about which van K. did not give a solitary sou.

In thinking back to van K's career, two things stand out for me. The first is watching him rehearse the BP in its heyday. It was quite obvious his view of the piece to be played was set in stone and the way the musicians responded to his slightest request was quite remarkable. No histrionics, no sarcasm, no 'wit of Sir Thomas', just workmanlike, efficient cooperation between a great conductor and superb musicians who trusted him blindly.

The second is listening to his recordings of the Schumann Symphonies. Most conductors and critics moan about the thick scoring and propose various solutions to this, often simply leaving these works out of their repertoires. Mahler even had the gall to re-score the music.

Van Karajan's interpretations reveal that if appropriate attention to detail is taken Schumann's scorings are quite effective. Van K. got inside the music and figured out that while the scoring may appear 'difficult' it may nevertheless 'work', if the musicians respond appropriately. This can simply be a matter of deciding in doubled passages which voice should dominate. One has then to persuade the musicians to go along. I think van K's interpretations of the Schumann symphonies are examples of his extraordinary attention to detail, and his ability to persuade an orchestra to realize his vision in the concert hall. This is what made him not just 'very good', but 'great'.

However, the most important comment on SR and his predecessors at the BPhil came from whoever said, 'Hey, it's not a competition. We've got both SR and van K.' We sure do, and a lot more besides.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Yosser said:


> Of course, this is true. But van K. would have dropped dead before he directed Le Sacre in order to promote the self-awareness and self-confidence of kids from disadvantaged backgrounds. And if anyone had suggested to him that he try something different for the traditional Berlin Phil New Year concert, like a jam session with a jazz band and a gospel singer perhaps (?), that individual would rapidly have evaporated on the spot under the maestro's withering glare.
> 
> I guess there are different ways of viewing the phrase 'broadening the appeal'. In van K's case, one refers to aggressive promotion of the music. In Rattle's, add 'using music for socially worthy causes', about which van K. did not give a solitary sou.
> 
> ...


I think you're talking apples and oranges here to be quite honest. Karajan and Rattle shouldn't even be discussed in the same breath together. Why? Because both conductors offer something totally different to the listener. A totally different experience.

Anyway, regardless, I like Rattle and I think he does a fine job.


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## Yosser (May 29, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> I think you're talking apples and oranges here to be quite honest. Karajan and Rattle shouldn't even be discussed in the same breath together. Why? Because both conductors offer something totally different to the listener. A totally different experience.
> 
> Anyway, regardless, I like Rattle and I think he does a fine job.


I agree with everything you wrote. The only reason for comparing Rattle with van K. is that they were both long term and successful conductors of the Berlin Phil.

Actually, come to think of it, this perhaps says something about the Berlin Phil. Pretty smart bunch if they can adapt to such powerful, but disparate personalities.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Yosser said:


> I agree with everything you wrote. The only reason for comparing Rattle with van K. is that they were both long term and successful conductors of the Berlin Phil.
> 
> Actually, come to think of it, this perhaps says something about the Berlin Phil. Pretty smart bunch if they can adapt to such powerful, but disparate personalities.


Well let's not count our chickens before they hatch, Yosser. Rattle has only been principal conductor of the BPO since 1999. He still has many more years left. I read that the BPO had extended his contract by another 10 years. It's going to be interesting to see what direction he takes them in the coming years.


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## Yosser (May 29, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> Well let's not count our chickens before they hatch, Yosser. Rattle has only been principal conductor of the BPO since 1999. He still has many more years left. I read that the BPO had extended his contract by another 10 years.


The new contract runs until 2018, which is a further 6 years on his current contract. As you know, the musicians at BPhil have veto power, so if they didn't want the extension it would not have been offered.

The only potential fly in the ointment is upcoming negotiations with the Berlin Senate about the subvention the orchestra receives. However, almost all concerts are sell-outs and the revenue generated by the orchestra covers > 60% of its costs. Hard to imagine doing better than this.

Of course, van K. was appointed 'for life'. But those were different times.

Interestingly, referring to some posts in a different thread, the focus of the 2009/2010 season will be on two composers, Brahms and Schoenberg.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Yosser said:


> The new contract runs until 2018, which is a further 6 years on his current contract. As you know, the musicians at BPhil have veto power, so if they didn't want the extension it would not have been offered.
> 
> The only potential fly in the ointment is upcoming negotiations with the Berlin Senate about the subvention the orchestra receives. However, almost all concerts are sell-outs and the revenue generated by the orchestra covers > 60% of its costs. Hard to imagine doing better than this.
> 
> ...


Great perhaps Rattle will do the whole Brahms symphony cycle. I would also like to hear his take on "Verklarte Nacht," which is one of my favorite pieces for string orchestra.


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## Edward Elgar (Mar 22, 2006)

My girlfriend's father knew Simon Rattle in the Liverpool Youth Symphony Orchestra. He was on the bassoon and Simon was on percussion. He was telling me that Simon always thought he knew best (it now comes to light that he did!) and stole much of his conducting technique from the youth orchestra conductor. I can appreciate his overwhelming jealousy considering Mr Rattle now has the best job in music.


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

Mirror Image said:


> Great perhaps Rattle will do the whole Brahms symphony cycle. I would also like to hear his take on "Verklarte Nacht," which is one of my favorite pieces for string orchestra.


Oh definitely agree with that. If his interpretation of Strauss's Metamorphosen is anything to go by - it should be breathtaking.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Bach said:


> Oh definitely agree with that. If his interpretation of Strauss's Metamorphosen is anything to go by - it should be breathtaking.


Rattle did Strauss' "Metamorphosen"? I need to check this out! This is yet another one that has "slipped through the cracks."


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## Edward Elgar (Mar 22, 2006)

His Beethoven cycle with the Vienna Phil was good, but I prefer Karajan. I have a feeling I'd feel the same way about a Brahms cycle.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Edward Elgar said:


> His Beethoven cycle with the Vienna Phil was good, but I prefer Karajan. I have a feeling I'd feel the same way about a Brahms cycle.


My favorite Brahms set is with Sir Georg Solti and the CSO. One of the best sets in my Brahms collection.


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

Mirror Image said:


> Rattle did Strauss' "Metamorphosen"? I need to check this out! This is yet another one that has "slipped through the cracks."


It's on the same disk as Mahler 9 with the Vienna Phil. Lovely recording.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Bach said:


> It's on the same disk as Mahler 9 with the Vienna Phil. Lovely recording.


That's probably why I don't own it. Now that makes sense. When I was buying Rattle's Mahler I skipped this Mahler 9th in favor of the newer recording with the Berlin Philharmonic, which looks like:










Now I have a good reason to acquire the other one. I'm surprised I haven't bought it anyway.


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

Which orchestra generally get the better players - Vienna or Berlin?


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

And yes, you should definitely get it - even if just for the Strauss. It's my favourite interpretation of one of my favourite pieces.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Bach said:


> Which orchestra generally get the better players - Vienna or Berlin?


I would say the Berliners have the better players, but that's only by default. You know I was thinking that those two orchestras get so good that it's really hard to even compare the two. Of course they both have different sounds, but when an orchestra reaches world-class status, like the VPO and BPO, it's really unnecessary to even start comparing the two. They're both incredible orchestras. The only difference between these two orchestras now, are the time zones.

Getting back to that recording by Rattle of Mahler's 9th with VPO, I just figured why I didn't buy it. It has poor audio quality or so many people have said in reviews.


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

Really? I have top of the range B&W speakers and the audio quality sounds very rich and full to me. In fact, that was one of the main reasons why I prefer this interpretation over Karajan's..!


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

Oh, and the BPO and VPO are on the same time zone


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Bach said:


> Really? I have top of the range B&W speakers and the audio quality sounds very rich and full to me. In fact, that was one of the main reasons why I prefer this interpretation over Karajan's..!


Hmmm...I've read several reviews about the audio quality. In fact, Amazon's own editorial review of it points to the bad quality of the audio.

I wonder why so many people were complaining about the audio quality. I heard you had to constantly adjust the volume in order to hear it.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Bach said:


> Oh, and the BPO and VPO are on the same time zone


Oh well nevermind, but you get the point I was trying to make.


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