# Singers' Flaws



## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Every singer has some kind of flaw. Some not as bad as others. Can you add some to the list?
Here are some examples (most of whom are among my very favorite voices):
Corelli: lisp
Pertile:nasal;mask
Bergonzi: Sheesh sound
Bjoerling: sucking in of breath
Callas: wobbles
Domingo: transposed highs
Milanov: shortens highs
Lanza: off key to the high side
Tebaldi: off key to the low side
del Monaco: off key to the low side
Gheorghiu: off key on occasion
Sutherland: mushy middle
Olivero: gulping glottal attacks
Price: swoops
Fleming: swoops and breathy sounds
Bartoli: aspirating
Gencer: glottal attacks
Pavarotti: a "nyahh" sound in his throat
Gigli: sobbing


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

nina foresti said:


> Every singer has some kind of flaw. Some not as bad as others. Can you add some to the list?
> Here are some examples (most of whom are among my very favorite voices):
> .
> .
> ...


Some wouldn't consider that a flaw.

N.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Agreed. Like me.


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## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

Flaws are interesting, but they should be put in categories. Somethings are inherent traits to a singer and they can't change them. Some things are perhaps bad habits or perhaps part of vocal deterioration. Gigli sobbed, but that was his style. I wouldn't necessarily call it a flaw, since it's a conscious decision to do it. Listeners just have to decide wether they like it or not. Domingo and Tebaldi had problems with high notes, but that's the way they are. I think that Callas had a lot of flaws in her voice right from the start, but she could mask them. Later on the problems just became more apparent. Many people say that Kraus has a very nasal sound, but his sound is the way it is because of the way his throat and mouth and everything else is constructed. And of course his singing technique. Di Stefano didn't perhaps have flaws, but his choice of roles later on became one. And too heavy roles ruined his voice. 

I think that there are very few singers who don't have inherent flaws. There are much more singers who have made good decisions not to create flaws. Like Kraus who had excellent technique and sang the right roles for his voice throughout his career. And then of course there is the fact that these are all personal opinions. What some might call a flaw is not a flaw for someone else. 

Personally when looking a singer I try to find the good qualities and focus on them instead of the flaws. But I still always keep the flaws in my mind and I'm always reminded of them when I listen to the singer. A singer might be "flawless", but if I don't like his/her voice then I don't listen. 

Del Monaco had problems after his car crash and I take that into consideration when I listen to his recordings made after that. Callas later on had lots of problems, but I know that she would sing better if she could. Sometimes Gigli's style irritates me, because I know that he could have done differently. But then just yesterday I listened him singing E la solita storia and he was just so magnificent that the flaws just didn't matter.


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

Gruberova's scooping.
Bastianini's excessive aspirates.
Zancanaro: same. ("Ah per sempre, io ti perde-ee-hee-hee-hee...")
Ramey: I don't know if you'd call it a vocal flaw, but he (and too many other bassos/baritones) singing from the mouth trying to sound darker.
Cotrubas: breathy. 
Hvorostovsky: gasping. (I can't be the only one who sometimes calls him "Hooverostovsky")

For the record: I like -- and in some cases love to death -- all of these singers.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Some of my favorite singers' flaws (not counting their declining years):

Mattia Battistini - weak low notes
Amelita Galli-Curci - tendency to flat (after her throat surgery)
Riccardo Stracciari - occasional aspirates (but good Lord who cares)
Kirsten Flagstad - a little short on top, and sometimes too placid
Lauritz Melchior - sometimes a fuzzy tone when singing softly, clips short note values
Maria Callas - strident tone at forte, inconsistent high notes 
Renata Tebaldi - short top, tendency to flat high notes

I wanted to include Caruso for his occasional excess of vehemence in music that calls for more refinement and restraint, but when I listen to his phenomenally rich tone and his uninhibited passion I'm too bowled over by the voice and swept up in the emotion to care. If he has a flaw, it's the most magnificent flaw a singer could have: that of having so much music in him that he nearly bursts letting it out. But that voice never failed him until his premature end.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Some of my favorite singers' flaws (not counting their declining years):
> 
> Mattia Battistini - weak low notes




But true (he often transposed pieces upwards).

I have been listening to the Marston complete Battistini and it is my favourite release of acoustic (as opposed to electric) recordings on CD. I am so bowled over by his artistry (and the sound of Marston's transfers, these DON'T sound their age) that the idea of pointing out the flaws seems like heresy 

Battistini is still a fairly recent discovery for me and so I am still in the honeymoon phase. His weak low notes are more apparent on his later recordings (after 1921) and since I have the opposite problem I have been listening to the way he copes with the passaggio and wanting to eat my heart out.

Oh, to be able to sing like Battistini!

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> But true (he often transposed pieces upwards).
> 
> I have been listening to the Marston complete Battistini and it is my favourite release of acoustic (as opposed to electric) recordings on CD. I am so bowled over by his artistry (and the sound of Marston's transfers, these DON'T sound their age) that the idea of pointing out the flaws seems like heresy
> 
> ...


You said it, Conte! Baritonal bel canto. I've been in love with the man for nearly fifty years. He was called "the king of baritones." I gather that Verdi had something against him; I've never learned what that was about, but it couldn't have been a musical objection. Wagner heard and met him and expressed his esteem, which confirms what we know of Wagner's taste in singing. For me Battistini was the best Italian baritone of his generation, as Stracciari was the best of the next.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> For me Battistini was the best Italian baritone of his generation, .


Absolutely right on the money!


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> You said it, Conte! Baritonal bel canto. I've been in love with the man for nearly fifty years. He was called "the king of baritones." I gather that Verdi had something against him; I've never learned what that was about, but it couldn't have been a musical objection. Wagner heard and met him and expressed his esteem, which confirms what we know of Wagner's taste in singing. For me Battistini was the best Italian baritone of his generation, as Stracciari was the best of the next.


I need to listen to more Stracciari. And Ruffo?

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> I need to listen to more Stracciari. And Ruffo?
> 
> N.


Ruffo may have had the most awesome instrument of any baritone - huge and dark. Apparently he oversang and blew himself out in about 20 years. I've always found his magnificent roaring rather stern and charmless. Of course it would be nice to have someone around now who could roar like that! The climax of this must be heard to be believed:


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

Claudia Muzio was a pretty flawed singer. She had no trill. She was short on top and tended to be flat. In her 1934-1935 Columbia recordings, which were considered to be among the best achievements by any singer, these problems were even more pronounced, plus she then acquired some mannerism and breathing problems due to declining health. Yet she had a musicality and a gift of communication that very, very few singers in the history possessed- I can only name Maria Callas, Tito Schippa, and Kathleen Ferrier in that league. 

Kathleen Ferrier had a limited range and modest (pardon me!) technique, consider that she died young and was still a developing artist. But again, as in the case of Muzio, no one dare to question her expressiveness in whatever she sung. 

Of my other favorite singers:

Elisabeth Schwarzkopf tended to distort the vowels in her later career. 
Leonie Rysanek: tended to be sharp. 
Montserrat Caballe: no trill and excessive use of glottal attack and pianissimo.
Teresa Stratas: shrill and forced on upper register
Renata Scotto: forced high notes


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I have heard that Mariella Devia's flaw is that she is so technically perfect that her singing comes off sort of mechanical, lacking life. It so, then imperfections may be what makes each singer special and a delight to listen to?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

silentio said:


> Elisabeth Schwarzkopf tended to distort the vowels in her later career.


Something of which Schwarzkopf herself was very aware. I think she only made some of the later discs to please her husband, Walter Legge.

As it happens I recently listened to her last studio recital, made for Decca when she was in her 60s. Yes she does distort some of the vowels but the voice itself, though diminished in volume and range, remains admirably firm and secure without even the hint of a wobble.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Florestan said:


> I have heard that Mariella Devia's flaw is that she is so technically perfect that her singing comes off sort of mechanical, lacking life. It so, then imperfections may be what makes each singer special and a delight to listen to?


Good technique never made a singer inexpressive. On the contrary, it permits freedom of expression by making the voice mobile, accurate and capable of dynamic gradation and timbral coloration. If a singer sounds mechanical and lifeless it might indicate a lack of ease and freedom and a consequent attempt to control the voice by force. Or it just might indicate a lack of musicality, imagination, and soul.

I can't say much about Devia, except that I haven't found her voice very distinctive and so haven't spent much time listening to her. When I have heard her I've been unmoved, and I don't think it has anything to do with her technique.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> I can't say much about Devia, except that I haven't found her voice very distinctive and so haven't spent much time listening to her. When I have heard her I've been unmoved, and I don't think it has anything to do with her technique.


I felt she was wonderful in the La Fille du Regiment DVD but then maybe the acting made up for any lack on the part of the singing.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

I agree with Diminuendo above that it's often hard to tell which traits of singers can truly be called "flaws." Someone above said that Ileana Cotrubas tends to be "breathy," but I'd describe this more as "short breathed": she seemed to need to take a breath relatively often. But is the fact that she didn't have the breath span of, say, Montserrat Caballe actually a _flaw_? It's hard to say for sure. One thing that is obvious to me, though, is that with any "legendary" singer there are inevitably going to be little habits or mannerisms that, with repeated hearing, can become tiresome; however, this is the price one pays for having a more or less instantly recognizable sound.

So I don't really care to try to enumerate any singers' flaws. I'll just make an observation: I think that if one already likes a singer, then his or her "little habits and mannerisms" (whether or not these qualify as "flaws") will probably be either a very minor annoyance or even part of that singer's charm; but if one dislikes the singer to begin with, then the habits, mannerisms, etc. will be unbearable. For example, I can't imagine anyone who already loves Dmitri Hvorostovsky getting too hung up on his habit of breathing noisily; on the other hand, for someone who for whatever reason isn't crazy about the sound of his voice or his interpretive style, then that gasping sound he makes could very well be a deal-breaker, so to speak.

Edited to add: Regarding Bergonzi, I believe what the OP is referring to as the "sheesh" sound is actually a certain Italian regional accent (Emilia Romagna, I think?). Personally, I wouldn't call a regional accent a flaw. And I think you'll find that not everyone agrees that Sutherland had a "mushy middle." So, like I said, so much of this is subjective.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> I agree with Diminuendo above that it's often hard to tell which traits of singers can truly be called "flaws." Someone above said that Ileana Cotrubas tends to be "breathy," but I'd describe this more as "short breathed": she seemed to need to take a breath relatively often. But is the fact that she didn't have the breath span of, say, Montserrat Caballe actually a _flaw_? It's hard to say for sure. One thing that is obvious to me, though, is that with any "legendary" singer there are inevitably going to be little habits or mannerisms that, with repeated hearing, can become tiresome; however, this is the price one pays for having a more or less instantly recognizable sound.
> 
> So I don't really care to try to enumerate any singers' flaws. I'll just make an observation: I think that if one already likes a singer, then his or her "little habits and mannerisms" (whether or not these qualify as "flaws") will probably be either a very minor annoyance or even part of that singer's charm; but if one dislikes the singer to begin with, then the habits, mannerisms, etc. will be unbearable. For example, I can't imagine anyone who already loves Dmitri Hvorostovsky getting too hung up on his habit of breathing noisily; on the other hand, for someone who for whatever reason isn't crazy about the sound of his voice or his interpretive style, then that gasping sound he makes could very well be a deal-breaker, so to speak.
> 
> Edited to add: Regarding Bergonzi, I believe what the OP is referring to as the "sheesh" sound is actually a certain Italian regional accent (Emilia Romagna, I think?). Personally, I wouldn't call a regional accent a flaw. And I think you'll find that not everyone agrees that Sutherland had a "mushy middle." So, like I said, so much of this is subjective.


I agree with this perspective. It's tempting to call some mannerism that one doesn't like a "flaw." Caruso would get so carried away with passion that he'd sometimes take big audible breaths right into the recording horn (maybe this is the case with Hvorostovsky, though I never really noticed). If you don't like his singing you're going to point out that "fault." If you love him you'll probably forgive it or even find it endearing. Of course there are objective faults of technique and musicianship, and singers do have plenty of those: wobble, strain, lazy attacks, awkwardness around the passaggio, smeary coloratura, clumsy phrasing, poor diction, etc. But some of these may require a good understanding of singing and some listening experience to identify and talk about. Acquiring that understanding makes us aware of just what an extraordinary accomplishment great singing is.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I agree with this perspective. It's tempting to call some mannerism that one doesn't like a "flaw." Caruso would get so carried away with passion that he'd sometimes take big audible breaths right into the recording horn (maybe this is the case with Hvorostovsky, though I never really noticed). If you don't like his singing you're going to point out that "fault." If you love him you'll probably forgive it or even find it endearing. Of course there are objective faults of technique and musicianship, and singers do have plenty of those: wobble, strain, lazy attacks, awkwardness around the passaggio, smeary coloratura, clumsy phrasing, poor diction, etc. But some of these may require a good understanding of singing and some listening experience to identify and talk about. Acquiring that understanding makes us aware of just what an extraordinary accomplishment great singing is.


With Hvorostovsky, there have been times during Met radio broadcasts when I've noticed that gasping sound, and I know that during these broadcasts there are microphones set up all over the stage. So it is probably something that's only audible "close to." I don't think it has anything to do with his breathing technique being incorrect, since he's always had the ability to spin long phrases. So maybe it's just a tic (like, maybe he's just always thought he has to make some noise when he breathes?). It is pretty baffling, actually.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

I have observed that intake of breath up close that Dimi has done for years. Many years ago he was a big smoker. Finally he stopped (or cut it down -- I am not sure) but the intakes of breath stopped.
And then more recently they started up again making me believe he went back to smoking again.
But now with his new problem, perhaps he cannot be smoking anymore and hopefully he will be well enough to get back to good health and perhaps we won't see that intake of breath in the future.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> I have observed that intake of breath up close that Dimi has done for years. Many years ago he was a big smoker. Finally he stopped (or cut it down -- I am not sure) but the intakes of breath stopped.
> And then more recently they started up again making me believe he went back to smoking again.
> But now with his new problem, perhaps he cannot be smoking anymore and hopefully he will be well enough to get back to good health and perhaps we won't see that intake of breath in the future.


At the risk of veering off topic, I want to remark that I've always thought it odd that any opera singer nowadays would risk his/her vocal health by smoking. I know singers did it back in the 1950's, etc. before we were certain about the connection between tobacco and health, but what excuse could there be today? I guess people just get hooked.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

I's a tough addiction to break.
I think Pape is another one (either that or a big drinker -- maybe both!)


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> I's a tough addiction to break.
> I think Pape is another one (either that or a big drinker -- maybe both!)


Really? I would never have guessed!


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> I agree with this perspective. It's tempting to call some mannerism that one doesn't like a "flaw." Caruso would get so carried away with passion that he'd sometimes take big audible breaths right into the recording horn (maybe this is the case with Hvorostovsky, though I never really noticed). If you don't like his singing you're going to point out that "fault." If you love him you'll probably forgive it or even find it endearing. Of course there are objective faults of technique and musicianship, and singers do have plenty of those: wobble, strain, lazy attacks, awkwardness around the passaggio, smeary coloratura, clumsy phrasing, poor diction, etc. *But some of these may require a good understanding of singing and some listening experience to identify and talk about. Acquiring that understanding makes us aware of just what an extraordinary accomplishment great singing is*.


I don't regard myself as musically intelligent enough to discuss flaws. I'm still at the stage where I'm in awe of what an opera singer can do.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Bellinilover said:


> With Hvorostovsky, there have been times during Met radio broadcasts when I've noticed that gasping sound, and I know that during these broadcasts there are microphones set up all over the stage. So it is probably something that's only audible "close to." I don't think it has anything to do with his breathing technique being incorrect, since he's always had the ability to spin long phrases. So maybe it's just a tic (like, maybe he's just always thought he has to make some noise when he breathes?). It is pretty baffling, actually.


He audibly rasped and gasped when I saw him in _Rigoletto_ at ROH a couple of years ago but it was in keeping with what he was singing and was very emotional. I was deeply affected by it and his performance stayed with me for ages.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Bellinilover said:


> Really? I would never have guessed!


Pape smokes


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Every great singer had flaws but it is part of the human condition. Do I love Sutherland even though her diction suffered and she was weak down low. Absolutely. Do I love early Callas even though her registers were not unified and her voice wasn't always pretty? Replay her Armida all the time.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Every great singer had flaws but it is part of the human condition. Do I love Sutherland even though her diction suffered and she was weak down low. Absolutely. Do I love early Callas even though her registers were not unified and her voice wasn't always pretty? Replay her Armida all the time.


I couldn't agree more.

Can you say Mario Lanza? I know his flaws but that voice gets to me like no other tenor in the world. Why? I cannot answer. It is what it is.


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## Il Maestro (Oct 27, 2015)

I agree with Bellinilover and Woodduck. Unless something can objectively be identified as a technical flaw, I wouldn't necessary call it a flaw but more of a matter of style and interpretation. One thing that I despise is the so-called "verismo sob". Some of my favourite singers have done this, though very rarely. To my ears, it just NEVER sounds musical.


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## sabrina (Apr 26, 2011)

Anna Netrebko is the queen of flaws. Her off key notes and wobbly coloratura ruin most of the belcanto arias she sings.


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

Hvorostovsky's heavy breathe-in, I noticed most recently during the recent Met Don Carlo (of course, that production had any number of other problems). I feel guilty now knowing that he was ill, but I don't think it was due to that.

Quite a few singers smoked even after the 1950s, I don't know why either, but some of them you'd never guess by their singing or career longevity. Of course, today I think there's NO excuse because of vaping...


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

graziesignore said:


> Bastianini's excessive aspirates.
> Zancanaro: same. ("Ah per sempre, io ti perde-ee-hee-hee-hee...")





> Riccardo Stracciari - occasional aspirates (but good Lord who cares)


I don't see what's wrong with "aspirates"? I enjoy them and think they're essential for that authentic Italian style. It sets Italian singers apart. It's not a flaw, I think it's a conscious stylistic choice and an asset.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

graziesignore said:


> Hvorostovsky's heavy breathe-in, I noticed most recently during the recent Met Don Carlo (of course, that production had any number of other problems). I feel guilty now knowing that he was ill, but I don't think it was due to that.


I listened to Hvorostovsky much earlier than that, when he only had just began his career and this particular flaw was ever present since.

Most of the flaws do not bother me at all if the singer is highly professional and involved in the role 100%. Mistakes are okay, but boring is not. Some flaws are more glaring than others, at least to my ears, like random vovel distorting of _<insert famous baritone here>_ or those grating high notes of _<not Callas>_. But many tenors would prefer lisping if they could sing like _<everyone loves him nonetheless>_!


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

There is something weird about Fiorenza Cossotto's voice. Her top doesn't sound like a mezzo's, she sounds like a dramatic soprano on an acoustic recording. I don't know how to describe it, but I think if you look at her facial expression here you would understand what I mean:


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## bman40 (Mar 13, 2017)

I am newcomer to opera, and I early on in exploring found a recording of Maria Callas in Carmen and the 'wobbles' the original poster described threw me for a loop. I have since come to very much appreciate her lovely voice.


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## russetvelvet (Oct 14, 2016)

Fleming: not that cantabile in her middle register


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

russetvelvet said:


> Fleming: not that cantabile in her middle register


You must be joking.......


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

russetvelvet said:


> Fleming: not that cantabile in her middle register


Don't you dare disrespect Renee Fleming. Pugg will hunt you down :scold:


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## Holden4th (Jul 14, 2017)

Kiri Te Kanawa: A tendency to swoop up to intervals of more than a fourth. Going on the other direction didn't seem to be a problem.

The most famous of all singers who smoked had to be DF-D.


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

Not sure if I love or hate it, but Ponselle rolls her r's too much..


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

GregMitchell said:


> Something of which Schwarzkopf herself was very aware. I think she only made some of the later discs to please her husband, Walter Legge.


True enough. Her Tallulah in _Bugsy Malone_ was hugely embarrassing and best forgotten.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Holden4th said:


> The most famous of all singers who smoked had to be DF-D.


And Kathleen Ferrier, who was partial to the occasional cigar. (I'm not kidding.)


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Holden4th said:


> The most famous of all singers who smoked had to be DF-D.


Caruso's heavy smoking killed him. Bjorling's drinking killed him. Possibly the two greatest tenors of the 20th century, they both died before turning 50 while still going strong.


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## AJF (Jul 17, 2017)

nina foresti said:


> Every singer has some kind of flaw. Some not as bad as others. Can you add some to the list?
> Here are some examples (most of whom are among my very favorite voices):
> ...
> Sutherland: mushy middle


All right. Here is a question I have been dying to ask. I want to like Joan Sutherland, since so many discriminating opera fans seem to love her. But there is something cottony about her diction that really annoys and distracts me. Is it how she produces vowels? Consonants? I am starting to feel like it is both, actually.






Anna Moffo sounds so clean in comparison:






Is her, um, "accent" noticeable to anyone else? Is it just a product of the vocal training of a different era?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

AJF said:


> All right. Here is a question I have been dying to ask. I want to like Joan Sutherland, since so many discriminating opera fans seem to love her. But there is something cottony about her diction that really annoys and distracts me. Is it how she produces vowels? Consonants? I am starting to feel like it is both, actually.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sutherland's mush-mouthed diction has always been a topic. For whatever reason, she seems to have been willing to sacrifice verbal clarity to tone production. Why she felt she had to do that is a reasonable question, since other singers of equal technical accomplishment have not felt the same need.


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## AJF (Jul 17, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Sutherland's mush-mouthed diction has always been a topic. For whatever reason, she seems to have been willing to sacrifice verbal clarity to tone production. Why she felt she had to do that is a reasonable question, since other singers of equal technical accomplishment have not felt the same need.


Hmm. She has a jawline that almost looks like a Habsburg jaw, now that I look at her. Maybe she couldn't help it. She speaks normally in interviews though.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

AJF said:


> Hmm. She has a jawline that almost looks like a Habsburg jaw, now that I look at her. Maybe she couldn't help it. She speaks normally in interviews though.


Don't judge a book by it's cover.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

AJF said:


> Hmm. She has a jawline that almost looks like a Habsburg jaw, now that I look at her. Maybe she couldn't help it. She speaks normally in interviews though.


Speaking is one thing, singing another. "Casta diva" is easy to say. "Cwwwwwwstw dwwwwvw" is possible only in singing.


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## AJF (Jul 17, 2017)

Pugg said:


> Don't judge a book by it's cover.


No offense meant to Joan Sutherland or her fans. I was just speculating that there might have been a physiological cause for her diction.

Also, this is interesting:
https://petersenvoicestudio.com/201...herland-and-the-fallacy-of-forward-placement/

It describes chronic sinus problems such as infections and polyps that apparently forced her to project her voice somewhat differently than other singers.

She must have had a very high tolerance for discomfort. Bleeding ear abscesses. Wow.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

The famous English music critic Ernest Newman ( 1868-1957 ) said this about Dame Nellie Melba : "Uninterestingly perfect and perfectly uninteresting ".


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

superhorn said:


> The famous English music critic Ernest Newman ( 1868-1957 ) said this about Dame Nellie Melba : "Uninterestingly perfect and perfectly uninteresting ".


Her recordings do reveal a rather "cool" temperament, perhaps a bit like Kiri te Kanawa's. Like Dame Kiri's, too, Melba's voice was said to be of great beauty and purity of tone. She apparently hated what she sounded like on the recordings of the time.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Il Maestro said:


> I agree with Bellinilover and Woodduck. Unless something can objectively be identified as a technical flaw, I wouldn't necessary call it a flaw but more of a matter of style and interpretation. One thing that I despise is the so-called "verismo sob". Some of my favourite singers have done this, though very rarely. To my ears, it just NEVER sounds musical.


The thing I can't stand is that habit some singers -- Anna Moffo and Leo Nucci are the two that come immediately to mind -- have/had of "scooping up" to notes. I like to hear notes hit directly, not "Dio mio guid*ooO*!" (Nucci).


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> The thing I can't stand is that habit some singers -- Anna Moffo and Leo Nucci are the two that come immediately to mind -- have/had of "scooping up" to notes. I like to hear notes hit directly, not "Dio mio guid*ooO*!" (Nucci).


You 'n' me both! Scooping can be an occasional expressive device, but singers who do it habitually or carelessly drive me bananas, no matter how good their voices are. Giuseppe di Stefano can really annoy me at times, while Bjorling always attacked notes cleanly. Callas was death on scooping and never did it except for a particular emotive effect.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Bellinilover said:


> The thing I can't stand is that habit some singers -- Anna Moffo and Leo Nucci are the two that come immediately to mind -- have/had of "scooping up" to notes. I like to hear notes hit directly, not "Dio mio guid*ooO*!" (Nucci).


God, if you think Moffo or Nucci are bad, you should listen to Astrid Varnay. Unbearable.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Here is an article I stumbled across on Maria Callas' flaws. I am wondering if the Callas experts here at TC can critique this article somewhat. It seems rather biased and hard hitting. But it also does give her high praise and fits the general thought of not the greatest voice but definitely the greatest actor. It is a 20-year-old article, so perhaps has been debunked already.

Maria Callas: The truth is she was far from perfect .

It is sub-headed:


> In the fifties, opera-lovers threw vegetables at Maria Callas . Now they only throw superlatives. Funny how people rewrite history, says playwright Terrence McNally


The opening paragraph:


> It is a brave man who dares criticise Maria Callas these days. In the 20 years since her lonely death in Paris at the age of 54 the American-born Greek soprano has been deified transformed almost beyond recognition from the controversial artist whose appearances were as eagerly awaited by some as they were detested by others.


Other quotes:


> ... the night of her Metropolitan [Norma] debut and she was booed for it. She did [it] at each of the subsequent six performances of Norma she sang, and she was booed at every one of them. What did Callas do that so outraged New York audiences? She wobbled.





> At almost every performance, Callas paid the price for not being a 'perfect' singer. And yet for the rest of the audience (the good people, I want to call them) these human failings were of small importance next to the total accomplishment of Maria Callas herself and a Callas Violetta or Norma in particular. For them, for us, for me, Callas made opera live. She made the notes and words of the great 19th-century Italian Romantic composers and poets sound spontaneous, inevitable, even natural.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> Every singer has some kind of flaw. Some not as bad as others. Can you add some to the list?
> Here are some examples (most of whom are among my very favorite voices):
> Corelli: lisp
> Pertile:nasal;mask
> ...


you don't have a single bass or baritone on your list 

anyway, mine:
*Sutherland:* downright refusal to use the chest register
*Callas:* wobbling and screechy high notes
*Podles:* overly ingolata/backward placement
*del Monaco*: barking, overly histrionic at times
*Dessay:* screaming, singing music too dramatic for her
*Price:* muddy middle register 
*Tebaldi:* pushed way too hard
*Nucci:* aspirated barking in place of vocal line
*Gheorghiu:* tacky interpretative choices, comes off like comes off like a cheap street strumpet
*Boris Christoff:* more bellowing than singing in the top half of his range, way back in the throat


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

*Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau*: Nearly perfect, in my estimation -- especially in Lieder. However, his voice wasn't quite right for Verdi.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Red Terror said:


> *Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau*: Nearly perfect, in my estimation -- especially in Lieder. However, his voice wasn't quite right for Verdi.


his voice wasn't quite right for dramatic rep in general.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Red Terror said:


> *Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau*: Nearly perfect, in my estimation -- especially in Lieder. However, his voice wasn't quite right for Verdi.


Nearly perfect... In vocal technique? Musical and dramatic interpretation? Choice of repertoire? Sheer vocal splendor?

I'd rate him faultless in #1, excellent in #2 except for an increasing tendency to overinterpret, too adventurous in #3 resulting in inappropriate attempts at heavy dramatic and bass-baritone parts, and respectable in #4 in his early years and in appropriate repertoire (mainly songs and lighter, lyric or comic opera roles). In opera, I think of DFD as something of a character actor; if I want to be bowled over by singing, I look elsewhere.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> Nearly perfect... In vocal technique? Musical and dramatic interpretation? Choice of repertoire? Sheer vocal splendor?
> 
> I'd rate him faultless in #1, excellent in #2 except for an increasing tendency to overinterpret, too adventurous in #3 resulting in inappropriate attempts at heavy dramatic and bass-baritone parts, and respectable in #4 in his early years and in appropriate repertoire (mainly songs and lighter, lyric or comic opera roles). In opera, I think of DFD as something of a character actor; if I want to be bowled over by singing, I look elsewhere.


Fischer-Dieskau possessed a solid and full-bodied baritone, which could be adjusted to an elegant mezza voce. At times his enunciation was overly assertive, but this was a forgivable flaw by a singer who gave all his heart, soul and mind to his art. Further, I loved his adventurous repertoire.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Red Terror said:


> Fischer-Dieskau possessed a solid and full-bodied baritone, which could be adjusted to an elegant mezza voce. At times his enunciation was overly assertive, but this was a forgivable flaw by a singer who gave all his heart, soul and mind to his art. Further, I loved his adventurous repertoire.


If this is "full-bodied,"






then what is this?






Or if this is,






what is this?


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> If this is "full-bodied,"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The George London recording is clearly superior -- what of it? This could be due to various technical reasons.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Red Terror said:


> The George London recording is clearly superior -- what of it? This could be due to various technical reasons.


No, it's due to the fact that London's voice can do justice to the particular demands of Wagners heldenbariton roles, whereas F-D needs the recording studio to stand a chance against Wagner's orchestra, and even so the climaxes push him to his limit and reveal that the tone is something less than "full-bodied" when power is required. F-D sings well, certainly (and he was in his prime in 1960) but the voice is simply out of its depth here. In Wagner, he was best suited to the lyricism of Wolfram, though he could make a good effect - on recordings - with Telramund, Kurwenal and Amfortas. His dramatic instincts were always fine, of course, and may compensate you for the vocal shortcomings.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Nearly perfect... In vocal technique? Musical and dramatic interpretation? Choice of repertoire? Sheer vocal splendor?
> 
> I'd rate him faultless in #1, excellent in #2 except for an increasing tendency to overinterpret, too adventurous in #3 resulting in inappropriate attempts at heavy dramatic and bass-baritone parts, and respectable in #4 in his early years and in appropriate repertoire (mainly songs and lighter, lyric or comic opera roles). In opera, I think of DFD as something of a character actor; if I want to be bowled over by singing, I look elsewhere.


Pretty much this. In general, I think a lot of singers with comparatively higher voices see something a bit lower and think "I can do that. I have the range", but they lack the sexy creaminess required to fill out that part of their range. ex: lots of baritones cover bass roles when none are around, and Placido Domingo thinking "pfft! I'm a star! of course people will watch me play baritone characters!" (contrary to many people's opinions, I have never thought he sounded remotely baritonal). DFD had a strong baritone, but strong does not mean deep or dark.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> No, it's due to the fact that London's voice can do justice to the particular demands of Wagners heldenbariton roles, whereas F-D needs the recording studio to stand a chance against Wagner's orchestra, and even so the climaxes push him to his limit and reveal that the tone is something less than "full-bodied" when power is required. F-D sings well, certainly (and he was in his prime in 1960) but the voice is simply out of its depth here. In Wagner, he was best suited to the lyricism of Wolfram, though he could make a good effect - on recordings - with Telramund, Kurwenal and Amfortas. His dramatic instincts were always fine, of course, and may compensate you for the vocal shortcomings.


Meh. I still enjoy FD's lieder output. I must thank you for introducing me to London, though-he was quite a powerhouse.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Red Terror said:


> Meh. I still enjoy FD's lieder output. I must thank you for introducing me to London, though-he was quite a powerhouse.


London's dark and powerful bass-baritone was made for Wagner, and he's on a number of recordings from the '50s and early '60s. He was also a superb Boris Godunov and a fine Don Giovanni. It's too bad that he suffered from a paralyzed vocal chord in 1963 and never fully recovered.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

Not sure how to describe it, but Lucic has this kind of very annoying, cottony timbre that grates on my nerves. All the while possessing a nice voice overall.

And most Heldentenors today may have a big metallic voice, but they lack beauty. Or subtlety, apart from Christian Franz.

Alastair Miles has a dry, unattractive voice, which seems to be a common flaw with British basses - notable exceptions being Tomlinson, Lloyd and Langdon.

Philip Kang is way too light for real bass roles. He was very weak as both Hagen and King Philip. 

Raimondi is too light to true bass roles as well.

Same goes for José van Dam.

Marcelo Álvarez is exactly right for Gustavo, and Not Enough for Manrico, yet he insists on singing him. I've seen him in 4 different productions. He never convinced me.

Salminen is a god when it comes to Wagner, but he's a bit too dark and menacing for Osmin.

Shicoff sings Captain Vere like it's full-on overdramatic Puccini. (When I saw him, he was allegedly ill. Probably wanted to make up for it by sheer volume.)


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Sieglinde said:


> Not sure how to describe it, but Lucic has this kind of very annoying, cottony timbre that grates on my nerves. All the while possessing a nice voice overall.


I feel the same! I've never quite understood how he has been so successful. I mean he is a good artist, but the go-to dramatic baritone at the Met??

Does he come across any different live? My exposure to him is mostly Met broadcasts...


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

Don't know - I heard him only in the Bregenz Trovatore (which was overall the most mediocre cast ever, I imagine the deciding factor was "ok, who doesn't have vertigo") and the ROH Andrea Chénier where he was a bit better.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Sieglinde said:


> Raimondi is too light to true bass roles as well.
> 
> Same goes for José van Dam.


Van Dam is a lyric bass-baritone, not a bass, and he largely stuck to the core bass-baritone or cantante roles--Amfortas, Escamillo, Golaud, Mephistopheles, Figaro, Hollander, Sachs, Ferrando, Paolo from Boccanegra--so this hardly seems to me to be a valid criticism.

Raimondi is officially a bass-baritone, although he's largely represented in my record collection in roles I prefer a true bass in--Filippo, Atilla, Arkel, Ramfis, Fiesco--so that seems a more valid criticism.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

Van Dam's Filippo (in the Chatelet) was sadly rather weak. I remembered better but on a rewatch, he didn't impress that much. Or I'm too spoiled by Furlanetto and Pape.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Sieglinde said:


> Van Dam's Filippo (in the Chatelet) was sadly rather weak. I remembered better but on a rewatch, he didn't impress that much. Or I'm too spoiled by Furlanetto and Pape.


Perhaps judging a singer by one solitary recording made in their late 50s isn't the best practice.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Sieglinde said:


> Van Dam's Filippo (in the Chatelet) was sadly rather weak. I remembered better but on a rewatch, he didn't impress that much. Or I'm too spoiled by Furlanetto and Pape.


He had no business singing that role imo. His low notes, most importantly in the duet with the Grand Inquisitor, were inaudible. To my ears he was more of a baritone than a bass baritone, but that's a thin line anyway.

Van Dam at 4:50. The low F is silent. His voice is all wrong for Filippo...


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Bonetan said:


> He had no business singing that role imo. His low notes, most importantly in the duet with the Grand Inquisitor, were inaudible. To my ears he was more of a baritone than a bass baritone, but that's a thin line anyway.
> 
> Van Dam at 4:50. The low F is silent. His voice is all wrong for Filippo...


Repeating myself above, but, you're judging an artist on one recording made in his late 50s of a role that was not a core part of his repertoire. This is like saying Hermann Uhde was a terrible bass because while he was a bass-baritone who mostly stuck with bass-baritone roles like the Hollander and Klingsor, he did have one performance in his 50s that's preserved for posterity in a Met recording as the Grand Inquisitor where he couldn't hit the low notes.

It might be true that these singers shouldn't have taken those roles, but every singer has minor missteps like those, especially late in their careers and particularly in talent-poor eras like the 90s or 00's when record companies and impresarios would throw fistfuls of cash at anyone who might be able to do even a modestly decent job in a role outside their fach.

As I pointed to above, Van Dam spent the peak of his career doing roles that were his fach--Golaud, Escamillo, Amfortas. In fact, I'm not even sure that Van Dam added Filippo to his career until in his 50s--he appears as the Monk on quite a few recordings from the 70s and 80s, but I'm not familiar with any recording where he attempted a Filippo until the Pappano in the 90s.

So, in a thread that's about talking about singer's individual flaws, pointing out that someone doing a role outside their fach late in their careers wasn't wholly successful is hardly worth mentioning. Again, every single singer has examples of individual recordings, individual roles especially outside their fach that was less than successful. I would actually say that his Filippo on the Pappano is pretty impressive considering it was out of his fach and his age--his tone is greyer than it was at his peak and he was never an ideal Filippo voice, but to me, Van Dam's performance is the only thing worth listening to in that recording.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

howlingfantods said:


> Repeating myself above, but, you're judging an artist on one recording made in his late 50s of a role that was not a core part of his repertoire. This is like saying Hermann Uhde was a terrible bass because while he was a bass-baritone who mostly stuck with bass-baritone roles like the Hollander and Klingsor, he did have one performance in his 50s that's preserved for posterity in a Met recording as the Grand Inquisitor where he couldn't hit the low notes.
> 
> It might be true that these singers shouldn't have taken those roles, but every singer has minor missteps like those, especially late in their careers and particularly in talent-poor eras like the 90s or 00's when record companies and impresarios would throw fistfuls of cash at anyone who might be able to do even a modestly decent job in a role outside their fach.
> 
> ...


I take nothing away from his career & artistry. Just piggybacking off what Sieglinde said about that particular role. But you're right, it's not a flaw of his as a singer.


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