# Art Jazz



## Guest (Apr 29, 2016)

What are some of your favorite pieces of jazz AS ART? By that, I mean music that is, in its own way, equivalent to a painting or sculpture on display in a gallery having all the same complexities and hidden symbology, every bit as carefully crafted by a skilled artisan. It's not meant to dance to although there's nothing stopping you from doing so. It's sculpture or painting for your ears. The great thing is, you don't have to go to a gallery to hear it. You can hear it anytime you want--free of charge.





You always have to go with Miles. He had those long, languid, melodic lines. Anyone interested in learning jazz, listen to Miles. That's how it's done.





From Sketches of Spain, maybe the greatest art jazz recording ever.





But I would credit Ellington as perhaps the originator of jazz as art. He was always off on his own trip. He didn't care what anyone else was doing. He did what Duke wanted to do. He certainly had no equal--not in the 30s.





With Trane and Monk together what else are you gonna get but art?





One of the most ignored and yet most beautiful and essential jazz albums of all time and _pure_ art.

Now my choices aren't meant to be definitive. You may certainly disagree but show me what you got.


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2016)

I have long enjoyed the music of ROVA saxophone quartet.

http://www.rova.org


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## Heliogabo (Dec 29, 2014)

I don't know if I get the jazz art label, but Charles Mingus, The black saint and the sinner lady might fit in it


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Bill Evans - Reflections in D


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

I have some problem with the label art jazz that suggest something "high" excluding pieces made for dancing. That means that Duke Ellington or Louis Armstrong should be considered less important?


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

I was going to say Duke Ellington's Sacred Concert. I am not a huge fan of Jazz, Sun Ra and John Coltrane are favorites, and some Fusion, including Northern European. Jazz has become either so common sounding it feels like easy listening music, or just frantic, that it is kind of irritating. I make no judgements on the people who like it, I just always want to to become something else. I think Jazz in my generation is often for people who don't relate to Classical or Prog Rock. I wish I had a good answer to the question, obviously, the Charlie Brown Christmas Show theme by Vince Guaraldi or Take 5 by Brubeck stand out as going outside of mainstream jazz feelings and limitations to become "art jazz." Pharoah Sanders or Alice Coltrane would be two "out there" examples as well.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

There is so much jazz that fits the description of the OP.

I could list pages full.

I'll start with the following:

Coltrane - A Love Supreme
The Art Ensemble of Chicago - Full Force
Keith Jarrett - almost entire catalog
Oregon - Out of the Woods
Terje Rypdal - Lux Aeterna
Anthony Braxton 
John McLaughlin - My Goal's Beyond
Mahavishnu Orchestra - Apocalypse
Return to Forever - No Mystery
Arti e Mestieri - Tilt
Forgas Band Phenomena - Axis of Madness

I could go on and on...

I'm not even sure why I only listed one release by some of these artists above, since their entire catalogs, for the most part, fit the description.

In addition, almost everything on the ECM label fits the description.

Most Bop and post Bop, Third Stream, fusion, free jazz, avant garde, chamber jazz, fit the description. 

Other artists, of varying styles, that fit the description: Weather Report, Kenso, Mingus, Cecil Taylor, Jean Luc Ponty, Zao, The Offering, Panzerballett... again, I could go on...


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

What about Fart Jazz? I remember reading about a saxophonist that released a 56 minute CD of his flatulence.


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## Casebearer (Jan 19, 2016)

I would like to hear the Fart Ensembles from Chicago and New Orleans and compare them.


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## Selby (Nov 17, 2012)

Tim Berne.


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

norman bates said:


> I have some problem with the label art jazz that suggest something "high" excluding pieces made for dancing. That means that Duke Ellington or Louis Armstrong should be considered less important?


I also don't know what the difference between 'art jazz' and any other jazz could be.


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

My highest recommendations...

*GREATEST ALL TIME - IN RANKED ORDER*
The Black Saint & The Sinner Lady - Charles Mingus (1963)
A Love Supreme - John Coltrane (1964)
Unit Structures - Cecil Taylor (1966)
Ascension - John Coltrane (1965)
Escalator Over The Hill - Carla Bley (1971)
The Jazz Composer's Orchestra - Michael Mantler (1968) [aka, "Communications - The Jazz Composer's Orchestra"]
Variations in Dream-time - Anthony Davis (1982)
Improvisie - Paul Bley (1971)
Afternoon of a Georgia Faun - Marion Brown (1970)
Crystals - Sam Rivers (1974)
Seeds, Visions & Counterpoint - Ivo Perelman (1996)
Even the Sounds Shine - Myra Melford (1994)
Lady of the Mirrors - Anthony Davis (1980)
Saxophone Improvisations, Series F - Anthony Braxton (1972)
Spiritual Unity - Albert Ayler (1964)
Bitches Brew - Miles Davis (1969)
The Survivor's Suite - Keith Jarrett (1976)
Barbed Wire Maggots - Borbetomagus (1983)
Art & Aviation - Jane Ira Bloom (1992)
Streams - Sam Rivers (1973)
For Alto - Anthony Braxton (1968)
Ptah, the El Daoud - Alice Coltrane (1970)
Extensions - McCoy Tyner (1970)
Conference of the Birds - Dave Holland (1972)
Let My Children Hear Music - Charles Mingus (1972)
The Koln Concert - Keith Jarrett (1975)
Silent Tongues - Cecil Taylor (1974)
Atlantis - Sun Ra (1967)
Steve Lacy - Saxophone Special (1974)
Mu - Don Cherry (1969)
Free Jazz - Ornette Coleman (1960)
Epitaph - Charles Mingus (1962)
The Magic City - Sun Ra (1965)
A Genuine Tong Funeral - Carla Bley/Gary Burton (1967)
Out to Lunch - Eric Dolphy (1964)
Sound - Roscoe Mitchell (1966)
Dimensions & Extensions - Sam Rivers (1967)
Karma - Pharoah Sanders (1969)
New York Eye & Ear Control - Albert Ayler (1964)
Liberation Music Orchestra - Charlie Haden (1969)
We Insist! Freedom Now Suite - Max Roach (1960)
Symphony For Improvisers - Don Cherry (1966)
Cantos I-IV - Franz Koglmann (1992)
Dreamtime Return - Steve Roach (1988)
People in Sorrow - Art Ensemble of Chicago (1969)
Intents and Purposes - Bill Dixon (1967)
The Long View - Marty Ehrlich (2002)
Disappeared - Spring Heel Jack (2000)
Fluxations - Denman Maroney (2001)
Amassed - Spring Heel Jack (2002)
Cobra - John Zorn (1986)
Episteme - Anthony Davis (1981)
Fear Death By Water - Franz Koglmann (2003)
The Bandwagon - Jason Moran (2003)
Nefertiti, the Beautiful One - Cecil Taylor (1962)
Blood Sutra - Vijay Iyer (2003)
Chasing Paint - Jane Ira Bloom (2003)
Live - Spring Heel Jack (2003)
Vade Mecum (Part I and II) - Bill Dixon (1993)
Quartet - Marion Brown (1966)
Another Mind - Hiromi Uehara (2003)
In A Silent Way - Miles Davis (1969)
Hemispheres - Anthony Davis (1983)
Fractured Fairy Tales - Tim Berne (1989)
Before We Were Born - Bill Frisell (1988)
The Psyche - Revolutionary Ensemble (1975)
Instrumentals - The Nels Cline Singers (2002)
Bring Yr Camera - The President (Wayne Horvitz) (1988)
Blues For the New Millenium - Marcus Roberts (1997)
City of Glass - Stan Kenton (1951)
In Our Lifetime - Dave Douglas (1994)
Cosmic Tones For Mental Therapy - Sun Ra (1963)
Electronic Sonata For Souls Loved By Nature - George Russell (1969)
Reese And The Smooth Ones - Art Ensemble Of Chicago (1969)
Impressions - John Coltrane (1961)
Trance Mission - Trance Mission (1993)
Mama Too Tight - Archie Shepp (1966)
Complete Communion - Don Cherry (1965)
Brilliant Corners - Thelonious Monk (1956)
Kind of Blue - Miles Davis (1959)
Presents Charles Mingus - Charles Mingus (1960)
As Wichita Falls, So Falls Wichita - Pat Metheny & Lyle Mays (1981)
Filles de Kilimanjaro - Miles Davis (1968)
Tijuana Moods - Charles Mingus (1957)
Nature of the Beast - Michael Formanek (1997)
Psalm - Paul Motian (1982)
I Sing the Body Electric - Weather Report (1972)
Monkey Pockie Boo - Sonny Shamrock (1970)
Machine Gun - Peter Brotzmann (1968)
New And Old Gospel - Jackie McLean (1967)
Conquistador! - Cecil Taylor (1967)
Oh Yeah - Charles Mingus (1962)
Circular Temple - Matthew Shipp (1990)
The Use of Memory - Franz Koglmann (1990)
The Shape of Jazz to Come - Ornette Coleman (1959)
Orgy in Rhythm, Vol. 1 & 2 - Art Blakey (1957)
Jazz in Silhouette - Sun Ra (1958)
The Red Quartets - Jane Ira Bloom (1999)
Easily Slip into Another World - Henry Threadgill (1987)
Undine - Anthony Davis (1987)
Creative Music Orchestra, Chicago 2001 - Scott Rosenberg (2003)
Legend of Ai Glatson - Leroy Jenkins (1978)
Far Cry - Eric Dolphy (1960)
Point of Departure - Andrew Hill (1964)
Revealing - James Blood Ulmer (1977)
Freedom Suite - Sunny Rollins (1958)
Saxophone Colossus - Sonny Rollins (1956)
Harmonious Creature - Sarah Manning (2014)
Ornette! - Ornette Coleman (1961)
True Blue - Tina Brooks (1960)
Fontessa - Modern Jazz Quartet (1956)
New York, NY - George Russell (1959)
Mingus Ah Um - Charles Mingus (1959)
Giant Steps - John Coltrane (1959)
Jazz Mood - Yusef Lateef (1957)
My Favorite Things - John Coltrane (1961)
Aka-Darbari-Java Magic Realism - Jon Hassell (1983)
Birth of the Cool - Miles Davis (1950)
Blue Train - John Coltrane (1957)

*MISCELLANEOUS (in date order) - WOULD BE ON THE ABOVE LIST BUT THESE ARE NOT YET RANKED:*
Crosscurrents - Lennie Tristano (1949)
Liberian Suite - Duke Ellington (1949)
The Third World - Herbie Nichols (1955)
Western Suite - Jimmy Giuffre (1958)
Free Form - Joe Harriott (1960)
Jazz Abstractions - Gunther Schuller [John Lewis] (1960)
Explorations - Bill Evans (1961)
Free Fall - Jimmy Giuffre (1962)
Movement - Joe Harriott (1963)
Black Fire - Andrew Hill (1963)
Speak No Evil - Wayne Shorter (1964)
Empyrean Isles - Herbie Hancock (1964)
Fuchsia Swing Song - Sam Rivers (1964)
Witches and Devils - Albert Ayler (1964)
Interstellar Space - John Coltrane (1967)
Eternal Rhythm - Don Cherry (1968)
Natural Black Inventions - Root Strata - Roland Kirk (1971)
Music To Eat - Hampton Grease Band (1971)
Pangaea - Miles Davis (1975)
Solo Trombone Record - George Lewis (1976)
Wilde Senoritas - Irene Schweizer (1976)
Air Time - Air (1977)
Mass on the World - Leo Smith (1978)
Removal of Secrecy - Rova Saxophone Quartet (1979)
Current Trends in Racism - Butch Morris (1985)
Flying Vegetables of the Apocalypse - Guy Klucevsek (1991)
Citi Movement - Wynton Marsalis (1992)
Evanescence - Maria Schneider (1992)
Testament - Butch Norris (1995)
Approximately - Guillermo Gregorio (1996)
Ellipsis - Guillermo Gregorio (1997)
Largo - Brad Mehidau (2002)
Suite for Helen F - Ivo Perelman (2003)


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

I do hope my other half do nor see your post, if yes, we have to sell the house.


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

AfterHours said:


> My highest recommendations...
> 
> *GREATEST ALL TIME - IN RANKED ORDER*
> The Black Saint & The Sinner Lady - Charles Mingus (1963)
> ...


*You better recheck I think you have missed some.*


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## Casebearer (Jan 19, 2016)

He sure does. No Chris Potter, Mihály Dresch, Vijay Iyer, E.S.T., etc.....


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## bigboy (May 26, 2017)

One of my favorite things about Jazz as art music is that it is a form of art music which has evolved almost entirely since the advent of recording technology. I love being able to listen to various out takes and alternative versions of tracks on an album to see musicians flesh out their ideas, or being able to compare two performances of the same piece a year apart and see what has changed.
I think one of my favorite exemplars of this are the Village Vanguard albums from the Bill Evans trio, especially the two cuts of Alice in Wonderland:






I know there are lots of other great examples of this sort of thing- and I'd love to hear some comparisons that others find particularly enlightening!

Another exciting progression is the transformation of Miles Davis from bop to fusion. And its not just listening to how the music changed, but also reading him talk in interviews about how he viewed the place of his music in the modern artistic and social dialogues.

I suppose in the back of my mind I wish we had the same wealth of information on the the creative process of composers from 200 years ago- but I guess this makes what we do know all the more impressive!


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I suspect that _all_ jazz music is "art". Some of it, though, is not so great art, or lesser art, while a smaller portion is better art, and a very small modicum of it (as in any field of creativity) is greater art.

A child finger painting creates "art". So does Willem de Kooning.

I prefer some of my grandson's recent finger painting "art" displays. But I'll invest in de Kooning.

... Er, what is the question again?


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

Casebearer said:


> He sure does. No Chris Potter, Mihály Dresch, Vijay Iyer, E.S.T., etc.....


Iyer's best album is actually on there


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

I am still puzzled as to what actually makes a certain jazz performance "Art Music" and another as ......what?


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## Casebearer (Jan 19, 2016)

AfterHours said:


> Iyer's best album is actually on there


That's great. I missed it in the list (organized by title but we've talked about that).


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

For me:

1. Mingus' Black Saint
2. Dolphy's Out to Lunch
3. Coleman's Shape of Jazz to Come
4. Monk's Brilliant Corners
5. Coltrane's Ascension


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## apricissimus (May 15, 2013)

I'm a complete Mingus nut. He's probably my number one favorite musician/composer in any genre of music. I have (I believe) everything he ever recorded commercially, plus a ton of bootlegs.

Maybe I'm weird, but Black Saint and the Sinner Lady is like my 12th or 13th or 15th favorite Mingus album, even though it's consistently ranked as one of the greatest jazz albums of all time.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

everybody is different. I think that the best thing about Black saint and the sinner lady is that shows Mingus the arranger at his best. If I have to mention his best tunes, maybe I would look mention things on other albums (altough I really like especially the second movement), but the way Black saint is orchestrated, with those layers of instruments is incredible.
By the way, I think that (like Sun Ra for instance) Mingus was first of all a great arranger, even more than a great composer (even if he wrote some great tunes).


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2017)

bigboy said:


> Another exciting progression is the transformation of Miles Davis from bop to fusion. And its not just listening to how the music changed, but also reading him talk in interviews about how he viewed the place of his music in the modern artistic and social dialogues.


There is supposedly a true story that Miles was at the White House under the Reagan presidency and Nancy Reagan approached him and asked what he had done to deserve an invitation to the White House. Miles replied, "I changed the course of music five or six times. What did you do other than sleep with the president?" He was never invited back.


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## bigboy (May 26, 2017)

Victor Redseal said:


> replied, "I changed the course of music five or six times. What did you do other than sleep with the president?" He was never invited back.


I'd never heard that story- it gave me a good laugh, thanks


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2017)

Art to the point of incomprehensibility.


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