# Works with cyclic form?



## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

My thread about César Franck brought up the topic of cyclic form, when works have recurring melodies or themes throughout the whole work (or more than one movement) rather than just throughout a movement.

Some examples include Saint-Saëns' Symphony No. 3, Franck's Symphony in D minor, Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique, etc. What are some other examples of works that use this form?


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

The only work I can think of right now is Beethoven's 5th, and the recurrence of the main short-short-short-long theme throughout the entire symphony is actually _fairly _subtle. Maybe not something you'd might expect from perhaps the most famous theme ever.

_It is commonly asserted that the opening four-note rhythmic motif (short-short-short-long; see above) is repeated throughout the symphony, unifying it. "It is a rhythmic pattern (dit-dit-dit-dot*) that makes its appearance in each of the other three movements and thus contributes to the overall unity of the symphony" (Doug Briscoe); "a single motif that unifies the entire work" (Peter Gutmann); "the key motif of the entire symphony"; "the rhythm of the famous opening figure ... recurs at crucial points in later movements" (Richard Bratby). The New Grove encyclopedia cautiously endorses this view, reporting that "[t]he famous opening motif is to be heard in almost every bar of the first movement-and, allowing for modifications, in the other movements."_

From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._5_(Beethoven)


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

DiesIraeVIX said:


> The only work I can think of right now is Beethoven's 5th, and the recurrence of the main short-short-short-long theme throughout the entire symphony is actually _fairly _subtle. Maybe not something you'd might expect from perhaps the most famous theme ever.


I have always loved the way in which, in his violin concerto, those soft drum beats with which he opens the first movement, keep on reappearing in various forms throughout the movement. Who but Beethoven would be insane enough to not only start a violin concerto that way, but then to make that little motive a major feature of the entire movement?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

DiesIraeVIX said:


> The only work I can think of right now is Beethoven's 5th, and the recurrence of the main short-short-short-long theme throughout the entire symphony is actually _fairly _subtle.


Beethoven had another cyclic touch in the 5th -- bringing back part of the scherzo in the finale. That just wasn't done in those days. Although (you guessed it) Haydn did it once...


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

These works use that form:Beethoven symphonies 5& 9,Tchaikovsky symphony 5,Dvorak symphony 9,Grieg piano concerto,Arensky symphony 2 & gershwin concerto in f.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

KenOC said:


> Beethoven had another cyclic touch in the 5th -- bringing back part of the scherzo in the finale. That just wasn't done in those days. Although (you guessed it) Haydn did it once...


well one them or subject was heard in 3 movements. Tchaikovsky symphony 5 there are themes heard in all 4 movements.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I thought immediately of Dvorak's Serenade for Winds, Op. 44. Who doesn't delight when that wonderful pompous theme of the beginning makes a return at the end.

Of course, I believe great symphonies, concerti, sonatas, and other large multi-movement works in classical composition tend to be based upon related melodic, harmonic, and rhythmic motifs. A comparison of the "dramatic" theme of a sonata structure with the "lyric" theme will often reveal the relationship. Sometimes the relationship is readily evident, but more often it is subtle -- a variation, transformation, or an inversion of the main theme. Likewise, there is some sort of unifying force in the second and third and fourth movements that link them to the first. More than just key relationships. Often we sense the cyclicism more than hear it, but it makes for a complete work holding together in the fashion that it does.

In another thread on this Forum we described Frankenstein-like symphonies, derived from movements of different works. Such "symphonies" don't seem coherent for some reason -- the First Movement from Brahms's First, the Second Movement from Beethoven's Sixth, the Third Movement from Shostakovich's Fifth, the Finale from Bruckner's Eighth. Something doesn't work, since the relationships between melody, harmony, and rhythm are shattered.

Schoenberg always seems a composer who spends much effort in unifying works thematically. And I mean in more than a tone-row sense. His earl _Gurrelieder_ seems unified by thematic structures, a rather cyclical work, I'd suggest.

I recall reading once an interview with Schoenberg in which he was discussing how the secondary theme of, I think it was his Chamber Symphony No. 1, was related to the primary theme. The two themes had been written before Schoenberg himself was aware of their relationship, which was pointed out to him by a colleague (perhaps Webern or Berg) and somewhat astounded the elder composer himself when he realized the relationship of the two themes. (If I ever run across that article again, I'll post the information here.)

A work which I believe is a good example of easy to hear relationships of themes from movement to movement is Tchaikovsky's Fifth Symphony, one of my favorite works, and a work which one must consider cyclical.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Tristan said:


> My thread about César Franck brought up the topic of cyclic form, when works have recurring melodies or themes throughout the whole work (or more than one movement) rather than just throughout a movement.
> 
> Some examples include Saint-Saëns' Symphony No. 3, Franck's Symphony in D minor, Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique, etc. What are some other examples of works that use this form?


I've read cyclic form to be applied to music of the late 19th century, particularly the French. As people have suggested above, Beethoven was a precursor to this (esp. his late works), and Berlioz as you mention (btw, his Harold in Italy is much more rigorous in thematic unity than the Fantastique). The innovations of Liszt and Wagner are relevant here as well.

Franck was doing this right from the time when he was a student, however in terms of more well known works its his symphony that stands out (composed well into middle age), as well as his violin sonata and string quartet. Saint-Saens is similar, often having that build up of themes and fragments in a work, another one is his Cello Concerto #1.

D'Indy was of course a big exponent of this, but I only know his Symphony on a French Mountaineer's Song. He was prolific though, and I have come across other works by him here, people have posted them on the current listening thread ocassionally.

There's also Chausson's symphony and to an extent Dukas (I'm familiar with his Symphony in C). Don't quote me on this but Roussell has, to my memory of reading about it, composed symphonies using the technique (or his own take on it, since he's the next generation, early 20th century). Other members of the forum who know his work well might wish to comment on this.

In terms of those outside France, Dvorak is indeed a good example (his last three symphonies). Another one is Brahms, his Symphony #3 and Violin Sonata #2, Op. 100 shows him doing similar things to Franck. There's also the two symphonies of Elgar.

With late Debussy, Stavinsky in his Rite of Spring and others like Janacek and Varese, you got other approaches to form develop in the early 20th century (eg. building up blocks of ideas with less emphasis on unity and more emphasis on contrasts, a kind of collage effect). So composers, or some at least, moved on from this trend to other things.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

I'm a bit surprised that no one has yet done the obvious naming of Wagner, the ring cycle, and its truckload of _leitmotifs_ (which Debussy likened to "a musical telephone directory.")

Bartok's _Bluebeard's Castle_ has a "Blood Motif" (the interval of a minor second) which constantly recurs through each of its seven scenes.

Morton Feldman's later works, with their very limited material repeated with slight variants, surely qualify, as I think would a great deal of Takemitsu's (non-theater) music, with his tic of a cell-like motive constantly showing throughout a work, mutated and varied though it often is.


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## Guest (Sep 6, 2014)

Further examples of works recycling material:
Etienne *Méhul's* 4th Symphony
Anton *Bruckner's* 5th Symphony


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

Smetana: Ma vlast.
The very first motif played by the harp is also heard in other parts of the cycle.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

The list is large; here are a few:

CPE Bach, Prussian Sonata #3 in E major, keyboard concerto in C minor (one of the Wq 43 set?)
Haydn, Symphony 46 in B
Beethoven, 5th and 9th symphonies, sonata op 110, a number of others depending on whom one asks.
Schumann, Symphonies 2, 3, and 4, Violin Sonata in A minor
Berlioz, Symphonie fantastique
Brahms, Symphony no. 3
Liszt, Faust Symphony, piano concertos, sonata in B minor
Mussorgsky, Pictures at an Exhibition
Rimsky-Korsakoff, Antar
Borodin, Symphony no. 2
Tchaikovsky, Symphonies 4, 5, Manfred
Rachmaninoff, the three symphonies, piano concerto 3 and 4(?), two piano sonatas
Mahler, symphonies 5 and 6
Prokofiev, Symphony 5 and 6, Violin Sonata no. 1, Piano Sonata 8
Shostakovich, Symphonies 1, 5, 10, 15, Quartets 3, 5, 10, 11, 13, Cello Concerto 1, 
Myaskovsky, at least half of his 27 symphonies
Schnittke, symphony no. 7
Bartok, Concerto for Orchestra, piano concerto no. 2, the last three string quartets(?)

By the way, the lists for the composers above are incomplete. I was just listing some off the top of my head


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Sid James said:


> ...Saint-Saens is similar, often having that build up of themes and fragments in a work, another one is his Cello Concerto #1....


I would add Saint-Saens' Piano Concerto #4 as a prime example too.

I have read an entry on cyclic form in one of my books, and it says that the most emphatic examples are Franck's symphony and Elgar's Symphony #1.

Another one from Franck is his Symphonic Variations for piano and orchestra. He wrote it after he was at the conservatoire, but while there he was doing similar things, and Cherubini was appalled. This caused a great deal of friction between the two. Cherubini had been in his younger years, more of a progressive in terms of continuing Beethoven's legacy. The young Franck was in touch with the latest developments since Beethoven - namely Wagner and Liszt - and so wanted to revivify Beethoven's legacy in ways which was the reason for Cherubini's strong disapproval. Franck's marks where affected due to this bias, nevertheless he graduated and eventually became part of the staff at the conservatoire.

I think that Smetana's Ma Vlast and Sibelius' Lemminkainen Suite (Four Legends) do tie into this, but there was also this parallel development in the late 19th century of organic thematic development. Bruckner was a prime example. It differs from cyclic form but the origins of it go back to Beethoven, Liszt, Wagner too.

Earlier composers, such as big names like Handel, Mozart and Haydn where doing it too, albeit not as rigorously as would be done in the 19th century.


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## Hmmbug (Jun 16, 2014)

I believe Charles Ives' Concord Sonata also falls under this category, most famously with the short-short-short-long motif of Beethoven 5 fame making appearances in each of the movements.


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

Scriabin, Symphony No. 3 "Le Divin Poeme"


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

Hey if we're talking Beethoven nobody has mentioned op. 131, the beginning is quoted again in the end. Best chamber work of all time.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

OMG!!! Tchaikovsky's Fourth Symphony!

In the jubilant finale, the first movement fate theme interrupts the celebration before the incredible whirlwind of a coda.


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## ProudSquire (Nov 30, 2011)

I always felt that Mozart's string quartet in D minor fit the bill. I am not entirely sure though!


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Here are additions to the list I started in #12:

Debussy, String Quartet
Ravel, String Quartet
Prokofiev, Sonata for Two Violins
Vaughan-Williams, Symphony no. 4
King Crimson, Lark's Tongues in Aspic


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

EdwardBast said:


> Here are additions to the list I started in #12:
> 
> Debussy, String Quartet
> Ravel, String Quartet
> ...


I think I need a hand with this one, Ed - which part did you have in mind?


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## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

hpowders said:


> OMG!!! Tchaikovsky's Fourth Symphony!
> 
> In the jubilant finale, the first movement fate theme interrupts the celebration before the incredible whirlwind of a coda.


And the fifth, where the lachrymose opening melody is jubilant and triumphant in the finale.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

A question:

Does cyclic form specifically mean re-using a previously-heard theme or melody near the end of a movement or the work itself in order to unify or round off (i.e. Bruckner 5), or can it also mean simply using a theme or motif more than once anywhere within the work (i.e. 'DSCH' theme)?


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## maestro267 (Jul 25, 2009)

elgars ghost said:


> A question:
> 
> Does cyclic form specifically mean re-using a previously-heard theme or melody near the end of a movement or the work itself in order to unify or round off (i.e. Bruckner 5), or can it also mean simply using a theme or motif more than once anywhere within the work (i.e. 'DSCH' theme)?


I think it to mean a theme that is used in a subsequent movement. For example, if it's introduced in the first movement, and it comes back in the finale. Or any combination of movements. Themes or motifs. Like Shostakovich 10, where the DSCH motif appears in both the 3rd and 4th movements.


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## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

I remember listening to the Schubert Great C Major and hoping very much that Schubert would reprise the theme from the introduction at the end of the finale. But alas, he didn't. He only reprises it at the end of the first movement, though, and rather triumphantly, too. I'm sure Bruckner took notice of that.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

elgars ghost said:


> I think I need a hand with this one, Ed - which part did you have in mind?


Lark's Tongues in Aspic, Part I, a 13:00 instrumental piece, opens the album, Part II, which reworks the same themes, closes it. (Specifically, the opening theme of Part II is the same as the main guitar riff after the exposition in Part I, but played in augmentation (doubled note values), the second theme of Part II comes from violin melodies in the exposition and "coda" of Part I.) The Talking Drum is essentially a 7:00 introduction to the finale. So, 28:00 minutes of instrumental music thematically unified. One could argue that the key scheme of the album as a whole has a cyclical symmetry (G minor in the outer parts, E minor for the two middle tunes.) They were probably thinking of Bartok's arch forms.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

EdwardBast said:


> Lark's Tongues in Aspic, Part I, a 13:00 instrumental piece, opens the album, Part II, which reworks the same themes, closes it. (Specifically, the opening theme of Part II is the same as the main guitar riff after the exposition in Part I, but played in augmentation (doubled note values), the second theme of Part II comes from violin melodies in the exposition and "coda" of Part I.) The Talking Drum is essentially a 7:00 introduction to the finale. So, 28:00 minutes of instrumental music thematically unified. One could argue that the key scheme of the album as a whole has a cyclical symmetry (G minor in the outer parts, E minor for the two middle tunes.) They were probably thinking of Bartok's arch forms.


Most enlightening - all the years I've had that album yet blissfully unaware of its cleverness on that level. Thank you!


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

elgars ghost said:


> A question:
> 
> Does cyclic form specifically mean re-using a previously-heard theme or melody near the end of a movement or the work itself in order to unify or round off (i.e. Bruckner 5), or can it also mean simply using a theme or motif more than once anywhere within the work (i.e. 'DSCH' theme)?


In its central usage, cyclic form refers to a thematically unified multimovement work, which means there must be links among two or more movements. These links can be direct quotations (like the Fate theme in Tchaikovsky's Fourth), transformations of the same material (Franck's Symphony in D minor is a perfect example - the principal themes of the three movements are transformations of the same idea), or a series of themes derived from the same motives. (In addition to the direct quotation of the second scherzo theme in the finale, Beethoven's Fifth is also unified motivically by the da-da-da-dum motive - the second scherzo theme and an important theme in the finale use it prominently.) When only two movements are linked, it is usually the opening movement and the finale, as in Brahms's Third Symphony.

As for the question of whether recurrence of the DSCH movement is enough to call a work cyclic, that would be a matter of opinion. Out of curiosity, what work(s) did you have in mind? And are you sure that motive is the only link among movements?

I believe D'Indy, when he used the term in reference to Franck's music, was thinking of a kind of pervasive unity in which all of the movements are linked, a stricter definition than the now everyday one.

This idea has been carried to ridiculous extremes by some theorists. Rudolph Reti, in his Thematic Process in Music, claimed that all(!) classical (in the specific sense; Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven) multimovement works were cyclical. Hans Keller (I think I remembered the name correctly) made similar claims.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

elgars ghost said:


> Most enlightening - all the years I've had that album yet blissfully unaware of its cleverness on that level. Thank you!


Perhaps more important than the formal unity is that it forms a continuous instrumental drama. Part I ends in a sort of psychological disaster - a terrifying crisis with auditory hallucinations (the murmuring voices) followed by dissolution. Part II is the angry counteraction to this, a struggle for control and eventual victory. This is brought home by the thematic connections, which emphasize that the same issues are being addressed from beginning to end.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Lisztian said:


> And the fifth, where the lachrymose opening melody is jubilant and triumphant in the finale.


Also, the outbursts in the slow movement and a little quotation at the end of the third movement. Both of these Tchaikovsky symphonies are on the list in post #12.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

*Artur Lemba's *Symphony in C-sharp minor.
*Franz Berwald's *Third Symphony "Sinfonie singulière."
*Alexander Glazunov's *Second Symphony.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

maestro267 said:


> I think it to mean a theme that is used in a subsequent movement. For example, if it's introduced in the first movement, and it comes back in the finale. Or any combination of movements. Themes or motifs. Like Shostakovich 10, where the DSCH motif appears in both the 3rd and 4th movements.


Re Shostakovich 10: Note that the connections go far beyond the signature motive. 
-The first five notes of the third movement's opening theme quote the symphony's first notes (the motto theme), but transposed to C minor. 
-The ascending motive at the beginning of the second movement also comes from the symphony's first three notes. 
-The motto theme returns in the middle of the third movement. 
-The Allegro theme of the finale derives by a long process of transformation from an idea in the middle of the third movement. 
-The theme of the scherzo returns just before the loudest statement of the signature motive in the finale.

The whole thing is densely interconnected, which is why I asked elgar's ghost what Shostakovich works he was referring to, since I don't know any that are connected _only_ by quotations of DSCH.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

I think Bartok's 2nd piano concerto could be considered cyclic. The main theme of the first movement comes back in the last movement in a sort of truncated/rephrased form.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

violadude said:


> I think Bartok's 2nd piano concerto could be considered cyclic. The main theme of the first movement comes back in the last movement in a sort of truncated/rephrased form.


Yes, this is definitely so - That concerto is on the list in post #12. Similarly, the fugue theme of the finale in the Concerto for Orchestra derives from that in the first movement.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

EdwardBast said:


> Yes, this is definitely so - That concerto is on the list in post #12.


Oh ok. I didn't see that.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

EdwardBast said:


> The whole thing is densely interconnected, which is why I asked elgar's ghost what Shostakovich works he was referring to, since I don't know any that are connected _only_ by quotations of DSCH.


Sorry for my late reply, Ed. I didn't really present the question well. I wasn't referring to Shostakovich in particular - what I was trying to ask was whether a work can be considered cyclic if a composer drops in a motif or a cipher (such as the DSCH one) here and there if the work didn't otherwise contain any material that made some kind of cyclic connection.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

elgars ghost said:


> Sorry for my late reply, Ed. I didn't really present the question well. I wasn't referring to Shostakovich in particular - what I was trying to ask was whether a work can be considered cyclic if a composer drops in a motif or a cipher (such as the DSCH one) here and there if the work didn't otherwise contain any material that made some kind of cyclic connection.


The question of how much thematic interconnection among movements is required for a work to qualify as cyclic is a matter of opinion and open to debate, though I don't see that there would be much point in arguing about it. Using the words "cyclic form," as the OP did and as D'Indy did when he spoke of Franck's works, is kind of misleading. Cyclic form is not a form in the sense that sonata form or rondo form is. It is just a general principle of construction. Of a work like your hypothetical, it would make sense to say it makes some minimal use of the cyclic principle, or words to that effect.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

EdwardBast said:


> The question of how much thematic interconnection among movements is required for a work to qualify as cyclic is a matter of opinion and open to debate, though I don't see that there would be much point in arguing about it. Using the words "cyclic form," as the OP did and as D'Indy did when he spoke of Franck's works, is kind of misleading. Cyclic form is not a form in the sense that sonata form or rondo form is. It is just a general principle of construction. Of a work like your hypothetical, it would make sense to say it makes some minimal use of the cyclic principle, or words to that effect.


Thanks for that.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I would add to your discussion above EdwardBast and Elgars ghost that cyclic form is like a culmination of things, all tending towards thematic unity (or strong links) within the one work: Berlioz called this an idee fixe, Wagner called them leitmotifs, Liszt called it thematic transformation, and Franck took all this on board (and also of Beethoven and before). I have read that J.S. Bach was doing similar 'bundling' of themes in works such as the _Toccata, Adagio and Fugue in C major BWV564_. As the saying goes there is nothing new under the sun, and in terms of organ music, Franck did this in his own pieces too.

In the 20th century increased fragmentation would occur but it didn't stop composers from continuing aspects of this. I just listened to Benjamin Lees' _String Quartet #5 _(composed 2002) and in this, the first two movements give hints of the rhythm that is to dominate the final (fourth) movement whilst the intervening (third) movement is a short interlude. Its just one example, and I think the difference in these various ways of unifying a work is what's most interesting, not only in terms of composers' individual approaches but also how tightly or loosely they do it (I think of it as weaving a piece of fabric, it can be tight or loose, one colour or many, big or small, etc.).


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## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

The Renaissance cantus firmus mass is a cyclic form where the movements are unified by sharing material from the same melody. How this material is treated varies from mass to mass, but some masses would surely qualify as sharing unifying thematic material between movements. I find it hard to follow the cantus firmus though - some passages have it, some don't, it can be cut up and shuffled around, augmented rhythmically or otherwise manipulated - so can't recommend any particular masses.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

JANACEK sinfonietta is another example the fanfare of the first movement is heard in the final movement.
View attachment 51002


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