# Haydn's Piano Sonatas



## Air

A little thread for these jewels of the repertoire. 

I'll be the first to admit that I've never been the biggest fan of Haydn's music. Though most of his symphonies are pleasant, only a few of them have actually ever stood out to me in my listening (#88, 103, 104) and even these I could never find myself to listen to as much as Mozart's Jupiter or 39th, Beethoven's Eroica or 9th, Bruckner's 9th, Mahler's 2nd, Brahms's 4th and the such. And after an attempted foray into Haydn's daunting oeuvre, I found that my initial enthusiasm with his music had died down into a sort of accepting appreciation and a deep respect for music that I knew was great but simply could not come to terms with myself.

When I first began to discover Haydn's piano sonatas, string quartets, oratorios and masses, I felt a bit cheated. I had always been told that Haydn was the "father of the symphony" and that if I didn't get his symphonies first and foremost there was something wrong. But what I found in these other areas of his output was simply a delight. Along with some of his concerti, it really showed me what a well-rounded composer the man truly was, having written such diverse masterpieces as the Creation, Symphony No. 104, op. 50 and op. 76 quartets, Trumpet Concerto, and the Lord Nelson Mass. And then there were the piano sonatas.

Much has been said about Haydn's chamber music, choral works, and symphonies here of late. The piano sonatas, however, have a very special place among his works for me. It was only last year that I decided to perform my first Haydn sonata, after being stuck on Beethoven among classical era sonatas practically all my life. It's during this time too that I first discovered a beautiful Georgian pianist from the Rubinstein Competition named Khatia Buniatishvili, whose Schumann Fantasie has a hypnotizing effect on me even to this day. But she also played the Haydn c minor sonata (which only later did I discover was numbered 33, Hob. XVI:20) with such feeling that I sensed that I could feel the colors of each of Haydn's modulations shifting and surging almost like an artistic display of colored lights. This particular sonata had such emotionally written in tempo changes and dynamic changes that somehow the music just sprang out of the page at me, came to life as vividly as would a dance from Stravinsky's Le Sacre. And this is how I really came into terms with Haydn, having the privilege to get to know this work under my fingers and having it molded into my subconscious.

One day a couple months ago, I was in an utterly unmotivated, tired state, absolutely nothing to stimulate my mind. This was when I decided to drive to my piano teacher's house, where long ago I had discovered the Well Tempered Clavier and found it a lifelong companion. She had all three sets of Haydn's sonatas on her shelves and I began to go through each of them one by one. Of course I had heard of the C Major and Eb Major sonatas before, but as I played them for the first time, there was just this infectious sense of love for the music, each note, each clever modulation, in my body, which in turn restored a sort of joie de vivre in me that I had not felt for a good long while. Haydn was so clever so witty, so interesting, and so beautifully balanced - somehow a lot more fresh to me than many of those Mozart sonatas that for all my life I've been told were far superior. They're not. Haydn far surpasses Mozart in this repertoire in my opinion, though that's not a fault of Mozart himself, who wrote most of his piano music for his students. In contrast, one can sense how personal Haydn's sonatas were for him - the new sense of discovery in each chromatic harmony that oozes out of the Hob XVI:52, the heart-wrenching transition from unyielding b minor to sensitive d major in the Hob XVI:32, the sudden surge of anger from D major to d minor in the Hob XVI:37. 

It was a bit like finding a balance between Beethoven and Mozart for me, the best of both worlds which I had never even known existed. It's definitely a place I'd like to remain as long as I could, and while I'm there I have about a couple dozen of more sonatas to get to know well, all facets of Haydn's creative personality which I must say I find bland and unmemorable no longer.

Anyways, I didn't mean to hog the thread with my long, quite superfluous narrative. I'm sure many of you love these works just as much as I do and have plenty to say as well.


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## tdc

Good information here. The Haydn Piano Sonatas are yet another area of the classical music repertoire I have yet to explore. You are not the first to rave about them on this forum, so I think they just got bumped up a notch on my list of selected works to check out.


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## Nix

I agree with everything said. Haydn is one of those composers where being able to play the music makes you appreciate it so much more. With all those harmonic nuance's going by, it's easy to miss them as a listener. An interesting thing to note is that he often marks his pieces to be played 'Innocente.' I guess the pieces do seem unassuming, but there's so much more to them. You mentioned the C major and the Eb as the popular ones, and those are wonderful. My other favorites include the e minor, the Ab major H46 and the G major H40.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Haydn's piano sonatas are seldom mentioned. Folks simply forget their place in music history. These sonatas are as key to the development of western classical music in the sonata form, as are his symphonies and string quartets for those genres. Remember that Haydn was born in 1732, and for the next few decades, the Baroque was still riding well and high.

Haydn was a composer who composed at the keyboard. As far as we know, he sat by his keyboard and worked out the pieces that way, and praying every now and then to his God if the inspiration didn't come to him. That was what he did. So to write pieces exclusively for the piano and in the sonata form was very much right up his forte, and anybody who took the time and effort to listen to them all, as I did, could clearly see for themselves the enormous musical mileage that he himself worked out. He was very much influenced by CPE Bach, by the way, another great keyboard composer.

I bought this a couple of years ago. BIS label issued the whole set after pianist Ronald Brautigam recorded them over a period of years. Everything Haydn every wrote for the solo piano, all sixty plus sonatas, miscellaneous pieces including a transcribed version of _Seven last words of Christ on the Cross_. Brautigam played stylished on a later model Classical fortepiano (replica of an A. G. Walter 1795 original instrument). Haydn's wit and Classicism most apparent when played on a fortepiano.


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## Ukko

If you haven't heard Sokolov play Haydn's sonatas, you may not be aware of how _you_ should be playing them.


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## Air

Hilltroll72 said:


> If you haven't heard Sokolov play Haydn's sonatas, you may not be aware of how _you_ should be playing them.


I've heard you mention Sokolov's Haydn a couple times now, sounds like I better hear them. I'm not sure what you mean by the second clause though - in what way do you feel that Sokolov's interpretation is justified as "more correct" than the way a pianist such as myself personally approaches these sonatas?


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## Air

Nix said:


> With all those harmonic nuance's going by, it's easy to miss them as a listener. An interesting thing to note is that he often marks his pieces to be played 'Innocente.' I guess the pieces do seem unassuming, but there's so much more to them. You mentioned the C major and the Eb as the popular ones, and those are wonderful. My other favorites include the e minor, the Ab major H46 and the G major H40.


I agree with you about Haydn's modulations. I don't know quite how to describe it but he often does this falling or rising sort of harmonic exploration that sort of reminds me of Handel's work. I do agree that Haydn needs a lot of naivety to approach - one of the most useful things I was told when playing his music was simply (pun intended for emphasis) "more simple, more enjoyable". The C major is a great example of this I feel with its wit and lively character. I also just heard the Ab Major and the e minor for the first time these last few days and really enjoyed them, particularly the Ab. I also can't get over this simple minor-major transition in the b minor sonata (which happens at ~32 seconds on the video):


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## Air

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Haydn was a composer who composed at the keyboard. As far as we know, he sat by his keyboard and worked out the pieces that way, and praying every now and then to his God if the inspiration didn't come to him. That was what he did. So to write pieces exclusively for the piano and in the sonata form was very much right up his forte, and anybody who took the time and effort to listen to them all, as I did, could clearly see for themselves the enormous musical mileage that he himself worked out. He was very much influenced by CPE Bach, by the way, another great keyboard composer.


You make a very good point about Haydn's stature in the development of the sonata form and how his piano works are a key part of this development just as the symphonies and string quartets are. The fact that Haydn composed from the keyboard also intrigues me since he wasn't as well-known as a pianist compared to C.P.E. Bach, Mozart, Beethoven and Mendelssohn. Your right about C.P.E. too, he was such an innovator for the keyboard yet his piano works are so neglected - I think it was of him that Mozart said "He is the father, we are the children." Anyways, I should probably get Haydn on the fortepiano sometime, the recording you mention is a great recommendation. I do like the pianoforte recordings I've heard though - Brendel especially and older pianists too like Richter, Gould, and Yudina.


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## Guest

I quite enjoy Marc-Andre Hamelin's recordings of the Haydn sonatas on Hyperion - I have the second volume. I also have one of the volumes of the Brautigam recordings on BIS - I can't remember right now which one, but I enjoy it as well.


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## Vaneyes

DrMike said:


> I quite enjoy Marc-Andre Hamelin's recordings of the Haydn sonatas on Hyperion - I have the second volume. I also have one of the volumes of the Brautigam recordings on BIS - I can't remember right now which one, but I enjoy it as well.


I have both volumes of Hamelin Haydn, and they're quickly becoming my favorites. Well, I shouldn't say quickly, since I've had them since they were released. They've grown well. Hamelin has the lilt, the playfulness as required.

Others I own 'n enjoy--Gould, Richter, Sudbin, Brendel, Schiff, Pletnev, Pogorelich, Horowitz, Xiao-Mei.


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## Ukko

Air said:


> I've heard you mention Sokolov's Haydn a couple times now, sounds like I better hear them. I'm not sure what you mean by the second clause though - in what way do you feel that Sokolov's interpretation is justified as "more correct" than the way a pianist such as myself personally approaches these sonatas?


Jeez, I never intended the 'more correct' connotation. I have no formulated understanding of what 'correct' might be. I am aware that most of the sonatas 'work' as well for harpsichord as they do in the way they are usually played on a piano. Sokolov's interpretations definitely require a piano. A fortepiano
- say an 1830 Viennese action - would serve, but the 'information' that Sokolov conveys is beyond the capability of a 'clavier'.

You're right, you better hear them.


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## Vaneyes

Hilltroll72 said:


> Jeez, I never intended the 'more correct' connotation. I have no formulated understanding of what 'correct' might be. I am aware that most of the sonatas 'work' as well for harpsichord as they do in the way they are usually played on a piano. Sokolov's interpretations definitely require a piano. A fortepiano
> - say an 1830 Viennese action - would serve, but the 'information' that Sokolov conveys is beyond the capability of a 'clavier'.
> 
> You're right, you better hear them.


Has he done more than three sonatas? The YouTube offering of Sonata No.50 Hob.XVI: 37 didn't sound too hot...rushed with hollow acoustic. Anything available beside that and MP3 download? CD, DVD?


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## Ukko

Vaneyes said:


> Has he done more than three sonatas? The YouTube offering of Sonata No.50 Hob.XVI: 37 didn't sound too hot...rushed with hollow acoustic. Anything available beside that and MP3 download? CD, DVD?


He has done more than 3 sonatas. I have, and have heard, only mp3 downloads from various concerts. That is about all that is archived from him nowadays; possibly a great loss for posterity I think. He may be the finest pianist now living.


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## Sid James

@ Air - Enjoyed the Brendel video, the first time I've heard a Haydn piano sonata in ages. Last time was a couple of years ago on radio, and I think it was being played on a clavichord, which kind of sounded more delicate (halfway between a harpsichord and piano)...


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## haydnfan

No surprise, I really enjoy his piano sonatas and variations. My favorite performers are Brendel and Richter. But I recently picked up Buchbinder and liked how well thought out his performers are. Neither a banger, nor a softie, neither fast nor slow but just as is needed... he is flexible and dynamic.

btw I saw the Brautigam set on sell at arkivmusic this weekend.


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## Moscow-Mahler

Brautigam also made absolutely excellent recording of Haydn Piano concertos with *Concerto Copenhagen.* I think he should have recorded Beethoven. Norrkoping orchestra is good, but this guys from Copenhagen impressed me more. Seems to me that they are really excellent orchestra.


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## sherrylynn126

I'm new to this forum; this is my first post! I am wondering if anyone has a suggestion as to which volume of sonatas I might start off with. I am eyeing some urtext books on Amazon, at some $45 a pop, so I thought maybe I could start off with one but I don't know which to choose. I'm not a fantastic pianist, but I have been trying to play more lately. I'd call myself intermediate. I could guess that Book 1 might be easier if it was written for the harpsichord, but I don't feel I need to necessarily choose the EASIEST. Opinions are WELCOME! This is an old thread, I know, but I was googling "best Haydn piano sonatas" and this is what came up.

Did he write piano works other than sonatas? I wish I knew more. thank you, to anyone who happens to see this.


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## Animal the Drummer

Hello and welcome to the forum.

It's not inevitable that the earliest sonatas will be the easiest to play. In any case the contents of the volumes will probably be arranged in chronological order so (though I stand to be corrected if others know better) you may well find a mixture of difficulty in each volume. IMHO the later sonatas are more interesting musically but be aware that some of them are pretty demanding to play.

Haydn did venture outside the sonata form sometimes, the best known examples probably being the Andante and Variations in F minor and the Fantasy in C. Those two are later works however, not easy to play, so handle (Handel?) with care.


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## Rogerx

sherrylynn126 said:


> I'm new to this forum; this is my first post! I am wondering if anyone has a suggestion as to which volume of sonatas I might start off with. I am eyeing some urtext books on Amazon, at some $45 a pop, so I thought maybe I could start off with one but I don't know which to choose. I'm not a fantastic pianist, but I have been trying to play more lately. I'd call myself intermediate. I could guess that Book 1 might be easier if it was written for the harpsichord, but I don't feel I need to necessarily choose the EASIEST. Opinions are WELCOME! This is an old thread, I know, but I was googling "best Haydn piano sonatas" and this is what came up.
> 
> Did he write piano works other than sonatas? I wish I knew more. thank you, to anyone who happens to see this.


Try this site, you can see all his works 
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/composers/895--haydn


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## DavidA

Vaneyes said:


> I have both volumes of Hamelin Haydn, and they're quickly becoming my favorites. Well, I shouldn't say quickly, since I've had them since they were released. They've grown well. Hamelin has the lilt, the playfulness as required.
> 
> Others I own 'n enjoy--Gould, Richter, Sudbin, Brendel, Schiff, Pletnev, Pogorelich, Horowitz, Xiao-Mei.


I have Hamelin. Interesting Richter played Haydn rather than Mozart sonatas. Gould is his quirky self


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## Mandryka

Bach Ss can bobs hmexbs bhhbsxjs


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## Brahmsian Colors

A few of my favorites:

No. 3 in F major, Hob. 9
No. 12 in A major, Hob. 12
No. 48 in C major, Hob. 35
No. 60 in C major, Hob. 50
No. 61 in D major, Hob. 51
No. 62 in F major, Hob. 52 

My preferred complete set is by Walter Olbertz. I also like individual Haydn Sonata performances by Emanuel Ax and Jeno Jando.


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## SanAntone

I like either piano or fortepiano, but since none of the latter have been mentioned, here goes.

Three complete sets:

*Christine Schornsheim *

View attachment 143920


*Ronald Brautigam*

View attachment 143921


Also a fascinating set by *Tom Beghin* - through the use of period instruments and software to image room size and acoustics that Haydn might have heard

View attachment 143924


*Kristian Bezuidenhout* (fortepiano) has begun a traversal of the Haydn keyboard sonatas

View attachment 143923


There are more incomplete sets, but these are the ones I own and listen to most.


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## DarkAngel

For complete piano sets the new Dershavina is the best I have heard, fantastic artist who records very little but these sonatas are full of life and imagination in her hands......don't miss a supplemental 2CD set of extras that is even better than the sonatas

Also can't neglect a partial 4CD set by Brendel, these are really extraordinary and a real pleasant suprise


























Also I wish Hyperion label would issue a boxset of the 4 CDs Hamelin made of Haydn sonatas,
expensive to buy these individually (but they are very good)


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## mark6144

My favourite complete set is the one by John McCabe, on Decca.

IMHO it's certainly worth testing out the options on YouTube or Spotify first if you intend to invest in the CDs, as the interpretations and sounds of the different performers are quite different.


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## PeterF

Haydn’s String Quartets are among the most favorite classical music for me. I also am very partial to Haydn’s Piano Sonatas.

Though I do not have a recording of Haydn’s complete Piano Sonatas, I do have a number of recordings that cover most of them.
Among my favorites would be recordings by:
Brendel
Ax
Richter
Ranki
Gotkovsky
Sudbin
Kalish
Gould
Nel
Kocsis


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## Ras

DarkAngel said:


> Also I wish Hyperion label would issue a boxset of the 4 CDs Hamelin made of Haydn sonatas,
> expensive to buy these individually (but they are very good)


There are 3 volumes with HAMELIN with two cds in each - the third looks like this:








And Hamelin also recorded the three piano concertos.


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## WNvXXT

Excellent thread. I've been listening to these two quite a bit lately.


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## WNvXXT

double post. _______________________


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## hammeredklavier

Air said:


> Haydn was so clever so witty, so interesting, and so beautifully balanced - somehow a lot more fresh to me than many of those Mozart sonatas that for all my life I've been told were far superior. They're not. Haydn far surpasses Mozart in this repertoire in my opinion, though that's not a fault of Mozart himself, who wrote most of his piano music for his students. In contrast, one can sense how personal Haydn's sonatas were for him - the new sense of discovery in each chromatic harmony that oozes out of the Hob XVI:52, the heart-wrenching transition from unyielding b minor to sensitive d major in the Hob XVI:32, the sudden surge of anger from D major to d minor in the Hob XVI:37.


It's this sort of unfair "elevation" of Joseph Haydn's music that I find sickening; (the myth that "he was somehow far more "inventive", "original", "cerebral" than his contemporaries" -I don't think any other famous composer is exaggerated to the same extent as Joseph in this way.) this person [Air] talks about "chromatic harmony oozing out" in Joseph Haydn, but the fact is Mozart's K.533, K.475, K.397, K.511, K.540, K.394, K.608 were influential to Wagner and Chopin to an extent Joseph's keyboard music never was, for a good reason. And none of Joseph Haydn's "half-baked" last movements is as thorough as Mozart's K.497. 
In fact, I'm always baffled why Joseph always gets the monopoly of the name "Haydn", when he was even lacking in certain ways compared to his own younger brother. I think it's because people are generally uninterested in that time period, and they've always heard the name "Haydn" mentioned alongside Mozart's, and the "Haydn" in every one of those cases meant "Joseph Haydn". So it's somehow become unquestionable that "Haydn (Joseph)" is great. But I find Michael's melodies and harmonies fuller, and less trivial-sounding (doesn't have to rely on monothematicism all the time, unlike Joseph) and his use of form more satisfying. 
Has it ever occurred to you Joseph's harmony really just sounds "bland" or "dry" a lot of the time, like "textbook counterpoint"? It's because he taught himself with Fux's book (with some help from Porpora) after getting kicked out of his choir upon reaching puberty*. And his melodic invention honestly isn't impressive a lot of the time -he was certainly not the most talented at this either.
One of our members, [vtpoet] thinks Joseph is somehow being "cerebral" even when he's "bland", unlike his contemporaries like J.C. Bach. -There's absolutely no need for all this sort of "elevation". When Joseph is "bland", it's because he was "lacking in certain respects"*. -It's as simple as that.



hammeredklavier said:


> Also look at the ways to reach climax (before falling with arpeggios to the reprise of the initial material) in both Wagner and Mozart (sonata K.533), with a 7th chord built on F.
> Wagner uses a half-diminished 7th. Mozart uses a dominant 7th.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ( 5:05 ~ 5:35 )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ( 7:00 ~ 7:30 )


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