# Violin Concerto by Alma Deutcher



## sadams

Concerto no. 1 for violin and orchestra in G minor, composed by Alma Deutscher (9).


*II - Romanza*





*III - Allegro vivace e scherzando*





1st movement is to be premiered in April.


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## 20centrfuge

attractive music!


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## Ludric

Dance of the Solent Mermaids is worth a listen as well:


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## ArtMusic

Sweet masterpiece. Thank you for posting.


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## KenOC

It seems clear that Alma Deutscher's Violin Concerto is more interesting and distinctive than anything Mozart wrote at that age (9 years old!) Not sure what to make of that.


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## violadude

KenOC said:


> It seems clear that Alma Deutscher's Violin Concerto is more interesting and distinctive than anything Mozart wrote at that age (9 years old!) Not sure what to make of that.


Clear in what way?


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## KenOC

violadude said:


> Clear in what way?


Clear to me. YMMV of course!


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## Albert7

Hmmm... lots of pondering needed on this.


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## PetrB

I say leave this little girl prodigy alone, because like all children in general, until they are at least of that neolithic standard of the old testament age of 'adulthood,' children should be seen and not heard. This especially includes child prodigy musicians of any sort 

If this genuine charmer lives long enough, develops musically and flourishes, great; presently the public are fawningly near to drooling over her juvenilia, and I find something disturbingly creepy about that.


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## KenOC

PetrB said:


> If this genuine charmer lives long enough, develops musically and flourishes, great; presently the public are fawningly near to drooling over her juvenilia, and I find something disturbingly creepy about that.


Composers love applause, even if they're 9 years old. Did it harm Mozart? Mendelssohn? Nothing creepy here.


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## PetrB

KenOC said:


> Composers love applause, even if they're 9 years old. Did it harm Mozart? Mendelssohn? Nothing creepy here.


Yeah, O.K. but the child Mozart and the child Mendelssohn weren't getting applause for writing music which sounded like it was written between one hundred to one hundred-fifty years ago from the time they lived in. That's just a titch freakazoid for people today to get all het up about, imo, of course.


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## KenOC

PetrB said:


> Yeah, O.K. but the child Mozart and the child Mendelssohn weren't getting applause for writing music which sounded like it was written between one hundred to one hundred-fifty years ago from the time they lived in. That's just a titch freakazoid for people today to get all het up about, imo, of course.


What's your point? Music is music.


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## PetrB

KenOC said:


> What's your point? Music is music.


Oh... "It's all the same."

Beethoven = Andrew Lloyd Weber = Ferde Grofe = Alma Deutscher?


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## arpeggio

I am sure that we can up with a large list of prodigies that never lived up to their potential, like the Englishman William Crotch.


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## KenOC

PetrB said:


> Oh... "It's all the same."
> 
> Beethoven = Andrew Lloyd Weber = Ferde Grofe = Alma Deutscher?


I said, music is music. Your bizarre interpretation is your own.


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## PetrB

KenOC said:


> I said, music is music. Your bizarre interpretation is your own.


Well, one can't really debate a non-point banal bromide like "Music is Music."

Hey. "Money is Money."

Done here. Let the prodigy fest continue.


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## KenOC

By "music is music" I mean simply that I (and most people I think) are willing to judge a piece of music on its own terms. If that's a "banal bromide" then so be it.

It's obvious that Alma Deutscher is a talented little girl, and she writes music that's enjoyable. Or so I think. If you think otherwise, that's fine -- but it may be your loss of course.


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## musicrom

KenOC said:


> By "music is music" I mean simply that I (and most people I think) are willing to judge a piece of music on its own terms. If that's a "banal bromide" then so be it.
> 
> It's obvious that Alma Deutscher is a talented little girl, and she writes music that's enjoyable. Or so I think. If you think otherwise, that's fine -- but it may be your loss of course.


I don't like to join debates, but I pretty much agree with this.

I don't care so much about the story behind a piece of music, although it can be interesting. If someone were to compose music today in a Classical style, I wouldn't mind it at all. As long as the music is good, that's all that really matters. If someone wrote a Beethoven-like symphony today on par with Beethoven's symphonies, there's no reason in my opinion to criticize it for being old-fashioned or whatever. Sure, it might have been easier to compose than it was for Beethoven, but that shouldn't detract from the actual quality of the music. It's not about the story; it's all about the music.

(By the way, I'm not talking about Alma Deutscher's music specifically, just in general. Alma is not even near there yet, but she's got a lot of potential! Let her keep composing, and we'll see how it goes in time.)


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## Dustin

PetrB said:


> Well, one can't really debate a non-point banal bromide like "Music is Music."
> 
> Hey. "Money is Money."
> 
> Done here. Let the prodigy fest continue.


I think he was saying "music is music" because after he brought up the Mozart and Mendelssohn comparisons, you used the time period of her musical style's origination to justify it being "creepy" that people were fawning over her.


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## dgee

She's an interesting phenomenon, in real life and on this forum. I don't see how you can accept the composition or playing on these links as anything other than stilted and poor quality if you apply adult criteria (and I bet there are any number of adult composers or musicologists who could turn out more competent pastiche) but of course you can't say that because she's only 9 or whatever. And you also can't criticise her in general because she's only a kid and you can't say anything about pastiche because you'd be a "one of those" (even though she has the benefit of a lot of years and analysis and teaching practice/materials and recordings to help her compose in this style)

So yeah, it's interesting. But since "music is music", to me this violin concerto barks like a dog


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## KenOC

dgee said:


> But since "music is music", to me this violin concerto barks like a dog


An honest opinion, taking music as music. I like it a bit more than that but...there you are.


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## ArtMusic

sadams said:


> Concerto no. 1 for violin and orchestra in G minor, composed by Alma Deutscher (9).
> 
> 
> *II - Romanza*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *III - Allegro vivace e scherzando*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1st movement is to be premiered in April.


By the way, welcome to TalkClassical, new member sadams. Do you enjoy Deutscher's music?


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## Morimur

dgee said:


> She's an interesting phenomenon, in real life and on this forum. I don't see how you can accept the composition or playing on these links as anything other than stilted and poor quality if you apply adult criteria (and I bet there are any number of adult composers or musicologists who could turn out more competent pastiche) but of course you can't say that because she's only 9 or whatever. And you also can't criticise her in general because she's only a kid and you can't say anything about pastiche because you'd be a "one of those" (even though she has the benefit of a lot of years and analysis and teaching practice/materials and recordings to help her compose in this style)
> 
> So yeah, it's interesting. But since "music is music", to me this violin concerto barks like a dog


What kind of music was the prodigy of all prodigies-Herr Mozart, writing at 9 years of age?

It's an honest question, by the way. I don't find Deutcher's music interesting, even for a child . . . Yes, I know I am a horrible person.


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## sadams

Morimur said:


> What kind of music was the prodigy of all prodigies-Herr Mozart, writing at 9 years of age?
> 
> It's an honest question, by the way. I don't find Deutcher's music interesting, even for a child . . . Yes, I know I am a horrible person.


Well he wasn't writing violin concertos or any other kind of concertos for that matter at age 9 (Yes he was writing orchestra music, but not concertos) Herr Mozart wrote his first violin concerto when he was 19 possibly 17 years old and his first piano concerto (that was his own composition not an adaptation of somebody else s piano sonata) when he was 17 years old.


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## PetrB

dgee said:


> I don't see how you can accept the composition or playing on these links as anything other than stilted and poor quality if you apply adult criteria....


That is _exactly the criteria for a true prodigy, performing or composing at a professional adult level, i.e. you could not tell a child performed / wrote it._ But pardon me while I slip in to my blue meanie suit, and find my riot shield.


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## violadude

sadams said:


> Well he wasn't writing violin concertos or any other kind of concertos for that matter at age 9 (Yes he was writing orchestra music, but not concertos) Herr Mozart wrote his first violin concerto when he was 19 possibly 17 years old and his first piano concerto (that was his own composition not an adaptation of somebody else s piano sonata) when he was 17 years old.


No, he wasn't writing violin concertos or piano concertos. But his first symphony was written at age 8.


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## Morimur

violadude said:


> No, he wasn't writing violin concertos or piano concertos. But his first symphony was written at age 8.


BOOM! Beat that, Deutcher!

P.S. Deutcher, If one day you happen to find your way to TC (however improbable), I was only joking about hating your music-I LOVE IT!

:devil:


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## Headphone Hermit

The age of the composer (or performer) makes no difference to me - 8, 18 or 80 - its irrelevant to whether I like the music or not

Some young music makers could produce music that I like but child prodigies in general don't appeal to me


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## Morimur

sadams said:


> Well he wasn't writing violin concertos or any other kind of concertos for that matter at age 9 (Yes he was writing orchestra music, but not concertos) Herr Mozart wrote his first violin concerto when he was 19 possibly 17 years old and his first piano concerto (that was his own composition not an adaptation of somebody else s piano sonata) when he was 17 years old.


By the way, Sadam-good too see you survived the hanging. I always thought they were a bit too rough on you.

:tiphat:


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## ArtMusic

I have listened to both clips twice now. Very, very enjoyable, new music written today, at last. 

Alma D. *will be* successful, mark my words.


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## Bulldog

PetrB said:


> I say leave this little girl prodigy alone, because like all children in general, until they are at least of that neolithic standard of the old testament age of 'adulthood,' children should be seen and not heard. This especially includes child prodigy musicians of any sort
> 
> If this genuine charmer lives long enough, develops musically and flourishes, great; presently the public are fawningly near to drooling over her juvenilia, and I find something disturbingly creepy about that.


Yup, the whole thing is creepy. Her music sounds like a clone of mediocre composers in the late 1700's extending into the 1800's; that's creepy in itself. Her violin playing suffers from some poor intonation. Also, there's no sizzle or spine to her compositions - just very light stuff with hardly any contrast within movements. The most creepy feature that I came across was the hero worship from the folks commenting on YouTube.

Although a few posters have been critical of Ayn Rand, I'm sure they would agree that Rand strongly objected to mediocrity being praised and promoted as genius. I think that's exactly what's going on with little Alma.


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## Guest

KenOC said:


> Clear to me. YMMV of course!


None of this addresses the question in any way.

Clear in what way?

And, while I have you here, I might as well make another observation, namely that "music is music" does not address the point about chronology. Mozart and Mendelssohn were writing contemporary music when they were children. Deutscher is not. For the situations to be at all parallel, Mozart's earlier pieces would have had to sound like Frescobaldi or Monteverdi, not Johann Christian Bach or Leopold Mozart. For the situation to be at all parallel, Deutscher would have to be writing music like Cage or Stockhausen.


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## Guest

I watched the performances and a couple of interviews/news stories. This is really sad. This girl has a lot of talent and inspiration, and nobody, especially the media, is encouraging her towards anything resembling originality. She'll be forgotten as soon as she outgrows the "young female prodigy" outward aesthetic unless she can overcome the lies of the media.


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## Nereffid

From what I've heard of Alma Deutscher's music, she writes unoriginal, uncomplicated, untroubled music. What I would expect (hope, even) from a talented 9-year-old. Her parents seem to be encouraging her without being pushy.

Why can't the simple fact that she's a happy 9-year-old girl doing something she loves be enough?


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## ArtMusic

Would we be assessing *the music* posted here any significantly differently if it was written by a nine year old Felix Mendelssohn? Many seem to have real difficulty with the piece just because it is written by a nine year old in 2015. Get over it, it's newly written music in an older style today in 2015. Pure and simple. The listening public, like all centuries before us, shall decide whether this piece will survive or not. I am willing to think it will.


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## isorhythm

violadude said:


> No, he wasn't writing violin concertos or piano concertos. But his first symphony was written at age 8.


Honestly, I don't think this is any better than the Alma Deutscher music that's been posted here. I'm sure some will disagree.

Insisting that we judge any nine-year-old's music "as music" is bizarre. The music will never stand up to such judgment.

I wish all the best for Alma Deutscher. She is obviously talented and has a lot of support. I hope her family doesn't burn her out by pushing this prodigy stuff too much.


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## Nereffid

ArtMusic said:


> Would we be assessing *the music* posted here any significantly differently if it was written by a nine year old Felix Mendelssohn? Many seem to have real difficulty with the piece just because it is written by a nine year old in 2015. Get over it, it's newly written music in an older style today in 2015. Pure and simple. The listening public, like all centuries before us, shall decide whether this piece will survive or not. I am willing to think it will.


But I don't see why Mendelssohn or Mozart have to be brought into it, either as a positive or a negative.
She's an actual child, she's not the embodiment of either the future of music or what's wrong with music. Her place or non-place in musical history should be irrelevant, made so by the basic fact that she's a child enjoying herself.


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## ArtMusic

Nereffid said:


> But I don't see why Mendelssohn or Mozart have to be brought into it, either as a positive or a negative.
> She's an actual child, she's not the embodiment of either the future of music or what's wrong with music. Her place or non-place in musical history should be irrelevant, made so by the basic fact that she's a child enjoying herself.


I can agree. She is writing music right now as Alma Deutscher given her upbringing and inspiration, and music education so far. And it is lovely.


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## sadams

Morimur said:


> By the way, Sadam-good too see you survived the hanging. I always thought they were a bit too rough on you.
> 
> :tiphat:


Actually there should be a space between the "S" and the "A" in my user name. It's my first initial and last name


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## musicrom

some guy said:


> None of this addresses the question in any way.
> 
> Clear in what way?
> 
> And, while I have you here, I might as well make another observation, namely that "music is music" does not address the point about chronology. Mozart and Mendelssohn were writing contemporary music when they were children. Deutscher is not. For the situations to be at all parallel, Mozart's earlier pieces would have had to sound like Frescobaldi or Monteverdi, not Johann Christian Bach or Leopold Mozart. For the situation to be at all parallel, Deutscher would have to be writing music like Cage or Stockhausen.


Why does chronology matter to music? I discover new music from all eras nearly every day, and it doesn't matter to me when the music was written. If it's good, then I like it. You may criticize Alma for not being "innovative" and following the styles of the old masters, but even if she wrote "contemporary" music like Cage or Stockhausen, she wouldn't necessarily be any more innovative; she would just be imitating modern composers rather than classical composers. What's important is that she finds _her own_ voice in her music, whatever that may be.


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## Guest

musicrom, I'd love to answer these questions fully, but I'm supposed to go pick up pizza for my wounded son (broken collarbone).

But briefly, and perhaps others will jump in--not that these things have not been fully covered elsewhere, of course--it's not chronology that matters, it's authenticity. Mozart and Mendelssohn were writing contemporaneously with their times. They weren't going back in time to replicate some vastly earlier music from an era whose values and assumptions were different from theirs.

I'm also pretty sure that a faux-Baroque piece written in any other time but the 18th century will not be "good" in the way that an authentically Baroque piece written in the 18th century would be. A piece written in the 18th century is both in its time and of its time. It's what people are doing. It's natural. A piece written in that style ("in that style" being a giveaway) in a later era will of necessity be a pastiche. It will be fake, a copy. No one writing in the 18th century was trying to imitate a style; they were just writing music. Writing a Baroque piece in 1815 or 1915 or 2015 is imitating a style, not just writing music. If Alma were to just write music, she'd be doing live electronics.

I'm pretty sure, I've really gotta go get that pizza, that "find her own voice" are meaningless vocables. 

I'll get to that later, if you like.


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## trazom

isorhythm said:


> Honestly, I don't think this is any better than the Alma Deutscher music that's been posted here. I'm sure some will disagree.


I don't like that particular piece, but I find Mozart's two concert arias (K.21 and 23), the 5th symphony, and the Galimathias musicum he wrote shortly after turning 10, with its combination of learnedness and humor, more impressive--mostly for historical reasons, but some for musical ones. The two concert arias show his aptitude for vocal writing, orchestration, and drama that would become even more important in his later concert arias and operas and the lyricism in the A major concert aria for soprano. At this age, his unique style is already making itself apparent. Also, he'd just completed his first European tour and was being exposed to a wide variety of the greatest contemporary musicians of his time(including JC Bach in London), and absorbing their technique like a sponge. Writing everything by hand and being exposed to new music in person would've allowed him to internalize the music as well. I don't see that same experience being replicated in here, and if it is, I don't hear it in the music.


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## musicrom

some guy said:


> musicrom, I'd love to answer these questions fully, but I'm supposed to go pick up pizza for my wounded son (broken collarbone).
> 
> But briefly, and perhaps others will jump in--not that these things have not been fully covered elsewhere, of course--it's not chronology that matters, it's authenticity. Mozart and Mendelssohn were writing contemporaneously with their times. They weren't going back in time to replicate some vastly earlier music from an era whose values and assumptions were different from theirs.
> 
> I'm also pretty sure that a faux-Baroque piece written in any other time but the 18th century will not be "good" in the way that an authentically Baroque piece written in the 18th century would be. A piece written in the 18th century is both in its time and of its time. It's what people are doing. It's natural. A piece written in that style ("in that style" being a giveaway) in a later era will of necessity be a pastiche. It will be fake, a copy. No one writing in the 18th century was trying to imitate a style; they were just writing music. Writing a Baroque piece in 1815 or 1915 or 2015 is imitating a style, not just writing music. If Alma were to just write music, she'd be doing live electronics.
> 
> I'm pretty sure, I've really gotta go get that pizza, that "find her own voice" are meaningless vocables.
> 
> I'll get to that later, if you like.


I get what you're saying, but I don't know if I agree.

In the case of Alma Deutscher, I don't think she should lose "authenticity" because she's writing music in the style of a couple centuries ago. That's likely the music she knows the best, and it's only "natural" for her to be writing in that style. Doing "live electronics" would probably be less natural for her. Furthermore, there are many examples of compositions written by prominent composers that were written in an "old style," yet are still somehow not considered "fake, a copy" or unauthentic. I just don't see why it's a problem to write in any style you want, even if the style is similar to an older one. All composers have influences, and it's impossible to be completely unique - you must be copying one style or another; even when you're writing what you call "contemporary music," you're being influenced by the style of other composers that are writing music at the same time as you. Why would you consider such a composer "authentic" while you're implying that Alma is somehow unauthentic? It's really the same thing.

As an additional note, I don't like calling a style "contemporary" or "modern" because I believe it should only be done in hindsight. We'll find out in the future how to classify the music. Maybe it's weird to you that someone's writing in a style that's different from one that many others are composing in right now, but to me, that's totally okay. People are different, and people do what they want to do. In the future, we can look at the aggregate of music written in a period and try to classify it.

P.S.: I hope your son gets better soon, and that you were able to get the pizza on time!


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## isorhythm

This may be controversial, but I think the classical period may have been unique in being able to produce Mozart and Mendelssohn-style child prodigies because of the relative technical simplicity of the prevailing style. As far as I know there have been no such prodigies in any other eras. The prevailing styles of other eras, including our own, are too complex for any child to grasp, no matter how talented.


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## ahammel

isorhythm said:


> As far as I know there have been no such prodigies in any other eras.


Erich Korngold springs to mind.


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## Sloe

Bulldog said:


> Yup, the whole thing is creepy. Her music sounds like a clone of mediocre composers in the late 1700's extending into the 1800's; that's creepy in itself.


My thought was that her music sounds like something by a since long dead not well known composer. I think that is the same as what you said. Then it is better to make music that sounds like the music of a mediocre composer 200 years ago than a bad composer at any time or make no music at all.
That an orchestra decides to play her violin concert is not something I will have an opinion about. I have no demands on what an orchestra should play or not play.


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## Guest

It's not sad because I want her music to sound a certain way. It's sad because it's a waste of talent if she continues along the path the media has set for her. If she puts her talent into something original, she might be remembered. As it is, I don't see how she could possibly be remembered once the novelty of her age wears off. Once she becomes "just a person", writing in this style, people will realize they'd rather just stick with Haydn and Mozart.


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## Celloman

It doesn't sound original, but this is to be expected. Virtually every composer sounds, at the beginning of their career, rather like the composer(s) who influenced them. This nine-year-old has demonstrated a basic understanding of the Classical/Romantic musical style, and that's not a bad start. I have heard (and premiered) new music from composers who were in their late teens and early twenties, and I can tell you that it isn't anywhere as good as this.

In a couple of years, this girl could really go somewhere. You'd better watch out.


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## Guest

Celloman said:


> In a couple of years, this girl could really go somewhere. You'd better watch out.


You're not wrong. The problem to me is more that the modern media is already all over her, and will discourage her from originality.


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## ArtMusic

nathanb said:


> You're not wrong. The problem to me is more that the modern media is already all over her, and will discourage her from originality.


Deutscher has stated many times she does not want to be another Mozart. Her boldness in stepping out against what many "modernists" here are already suggesting shows she *is* original and she *is* composing as freely as she pleases,.


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## Guest

ArtMusic said:


> Deutscher has stated many times she does not want to be another Mozart. Her boldness in stepping out against what many "modernists" here are already suggesting shows she *is* original and she *is* composing as freely as she pleases,.


Outside of the first sentence, which I saw evidenced in an interview and in the music (Deutscher writes pastiche style, Mozart wrote contemporary style), I have no idea what you're talking about.


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## ArtMusic

nathanb said:


> Outside of the first sentence, which I saw evidenced in an interview and in the music (Deutscher writes pastiche style, Mozart wrote contemporary style), I have no idea what you're talking about.


What I meant was she is choosing to be free, she is composing in a style she is comfortable and *honest* to herself here and now. This is already pretty much what being a contemporary composer is all about.


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## isorhythm

ArtMusic said:


> What I meant was she is choosing to be free, she is composing in a style she is comfortable and *honest* to herself here and now. This is already pretty much what being a contemporary composer is all about.


It's probably the only style she's studied in depth at this point. She is nine.


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## KenOC

isorhythm said:


> It's probably the only style she's studied in depth at this point. She is nine.


Nine...a point that seems often missed here! I wonder what kinds of music our sophisticated CM fans were writing when they were nine? Heck, I wonder what they were listening to! For me, it was "Down by the Station," and nobody worried too much about whether it exhibited groundbreaking originality.


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## Ludric

nathanb said:


> I watched the performances and a couple of interviews/news stories. This is really sad. This girl has a lot of talent and inspiration, and nobody, especially the media, is encouraging her towards anything resembling originality. She'll be forgotten as soon as she outgrows the "young female prodigy" outward aesthetic unless she can overcome the lies of the media.


She is being encouraged to compose in a style of music that she enjoys and which comes naturally to her. I have no doubt that she will develop her own original style that sets her apart from other composers. The creativity she displays almost makes that inevitable.


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## Ludric

some guy said:


> musicrom, I'd love to answer these questions fully, but I'm supposed to go pick up pizza for my wounded son (broken collarbone).
> 
> But briefly, and perhaps others will jump in--not that these things have not been fully covered elsewhere, of course--it's not chronology that matters, it's authenticity. Mozart and Mendelssohn were writing contemporaneously with their times. They weren't going back in time to replicate some vastly earlier music from an era whose values and assumptions were different from theirs.
> 
> I'm also pretty sure that a faux-Baroque piece written in any other time but the 18th century will not be "good" in the way that an authentically Baroque piece written in the 18th century would be. A piece written in the 18th century is both in its time and of its time. It's what people are doing. It's natural. A piece written in that style ("in that style" being a giveaway) in a later era will of necessity be a pastiche. It will be fake, a copy. No one writing in the 18th century was trying to imitate a style; they were just writing music. Writing a Baroque piece in 1815 or 1915 or 2015 is imitating a style, not just writing music. If Alma were to just write music, she'd be doing live electronics.
> 
> I'm pretty sure, I've really gotta go get that pizza, that "find her own voice" are meaningless vocables.
> 
> I'll get to that later, if you like.


Alma Deutscher has obviously grown up listening to music by Mozart, Schubert, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, and the like. She is not attempting to "imitate a style" but rather to imitate the music that she loves. This is natural and has been the case for all great composers. Thus, the music that Alma composes isn't so much a pastiche as it is music created with the musical vocabulary which she has acquired - a musical vocabulary that comes to her naturally after years of listening, playing, improvising, and composing that kind of music.



some guy said:


> If Alma were to just write music, she'd be doing live electronics.


This would only be the case if she was raised listening to, playing, improvising, and composing music with live electronics, and for that it would also have to be the kind of music she enjoys the most.


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## Guest

musicrom said:


> P.S.: I hope your son gets better soon, and that you were able to get the pizza on time!


Well, he's well on his way, thanks! The bones are knitting nicely, and the pizza was done as I got to the place.



musicrom said:


> I get what you're saying, but I don't know if I agree.


Just so you know, I think this is maybe only the second time I have heard or read these words and believed them.:tiphat:



musicrom said:


> In the case of Alma Deutscher, I don't think she should lose "authenticity" because she's writing music in the style of a couple centuries ago.


She was not alive a couple of centuries ago. The music she's imitating is from a time that is quite different from the time she's in now. It is music that is quite familiar to all of us from having heard recordings and performances of it. Though we cannot even know how closely the performances we can hear now are to what Mozart would have heard. Probably not very close. When Mozart wrote his pieces, that music was current. It was not "a style"; it was music.

We can listen via recordings, not a way that Mozart could ever have heard it. If we hear it live, it's either in a modern hall or a modernized one, with electricity and modern plumbing and air conditioning.

And a modern sensibility about concert etiquette.

And surrounded by modern people with modern notions of personal hygiene. Plus they're all dressed funny. No wigs. Very plain dresses. And that's just the peripheries.

The music itself, even Wolfgang's most derivative pieces, would have sounded fresh in a way that Alma's imitations of Wolfgang and others cannot, no matter how expertly crafted. The music she's imitating has been around too long; it's too familiar. That's not to say that that music cannot still speak to us as listeners. Of course we know that it can. That's not even arguable. Of course it does. But it does not spesk to us as it would have spoken to audiences of its own time. It's different for us. No one listening to a piece of music from the 18th century has any doubt what that is. Whether we like it or dislike it, we know that that music is old, that anyone writing "in that style" today is, well, writing _in that style,_ a style that when it was new was not "a style" at all but just "Herr Mozart's latest sinfonia."

Too many things have happened since then, too many other musics, which we know, and which neither Mozart nor his audience knew. They did not listen to Mozart with Schubert and Berlioz and Brahms and Wagner and Stravinsky and Frank Sinatra and Led Zeppelin and the Beatles and Lady Gaga and juatin Bieber and Snoop Dogg ringing in their ears. We do. And that makes Mozart as he _was_ impossible for us to experience. And so even impossible to imitate. What's really happening is that certain stylistic mannerisms are being imitated. Not even music. Mannerisms. No soul. All surface.

Of course, students imitate. That's how they learn. But only the most arrogant student would consider those imitations as anything but practice, jettisoned as soon as the lessons have been learned. What Alma is learning, apparently, with all the professional performances and all the hoopla is that imitations are just as valid as the real things. What a terrible lesson.

Who needs a 21st century Mozart knock-off? We have Mozart. Even Alma recognizes the truth of that, at least enough to give lip service to it. And who really thinks that if Mozart had made a career out of imitating Frescobaldi anyone would still be listening to his music? He's worth imitating because he was not an imitator. That's the irony of this whole business right there. The music that's valued enough to be considered worth imitating was not itself written as an imitation. You understand?

Well, this has probably gone on long enough. I'll be lucky if anyone makes it all the way through this. Some people have already said before that they don't.


----------



## trazom

KenOC said:


> A point that seems often missed here! *I wonder what kinds of music our sophisticated CM fans were writing when they were nine? *Heck, I wonder what they were listening to! For me, it was "Down by the Station," and nobody worried too much about whether it exhibited groundbreaking originality.


I wonder why you're so determined to divert the discussion away from the music with non sequiturs and logical fallacies with nearly every post you've made in this thread. What do compositions of any members that have participated in the discussion have to do with the validity of their statements? Nothing, that's an appeal to hypocrisy. Neither does the audience's applause or whether or not the composer enjoys the attention have anything to do with the quality of composition being discussed. Heck, if you think writing a similar composition at the age of nine is necessary before discussing it, which is what your post implies, I wonder why you bothered saying anything in the first place.


----------



## KenOC

trazom said:


> I wonder why you're so determined to divert the discussion away from the music with non sequiturs and logical fallacies with nearly every post you've made in this thread.


I regret that you dislike my posts. But an easy solution is available to you.


----------



## ArtMusic

nathanb said:


> ...It's sad because it's a waste of talent if she continues along the path the media has set for her. ....


Really? The "path the media has set for her"? And a waste of talent, too?

People won't just stick with Haydn and Mozart. People, like me, will welcome new music composed in an older style here in 2015. There is room in the listening world for this, no doubt at all.


----------



## ahammel

ArtMusic said:


> People won't just stick with Haydn and Mozart. People, like me, will welcome new music composed in an older style here in 2015.m


I'm afraid you are in a very small minority.


----------



## Guest

KenOC said:


> I regret that you dislike my posts. But an easy solution is available to you.


Easy? I think not.


----------



## ArtMusic

ahammel said:


> I'm afraid you are in a very small minority.


The listening public shall be the judge in years to come, just like all centuries before us. (I think I am young enough to see her development.)


----------



## ahammel

ArtMusic said:


> The listening public shall be the judge in years to come, just like all centuries before us. (I think I am young enough to see her development.)


Indeed they shall, and I will be absolutely shocked if their taste turns to dot-for-dot pastiche of styles 200 years out of date. So far as I know, that is not a thing that has ever, ever happened before.


----------



## ArtMusic

ahammel said:


> Indeed they shall, and I will be absolutely shocked if their taste turns to dot-for-dot pastiche of styles 200 years out of date. So far as I know, that is not a thing that has ever, ever happened before.


Why shocked? People enjoy Mozart and Haydn, don't they? The point is, there is a body of listeners who supports her. Her backing by UNICEF and others for charity proves it.


----------



## ahammel

ArtMusic said:


> Why shocked? People enjoy Mozart and Haydn, don't they? The point is, there is a body of listeners who supports her. Her backing by UNICEF and others for charity proves it.


I will be shocked because, although there has always been interest in Mozart and Haydn and Bach and Palestrina and Wagner and Debussy and Schoenberg, there has never been any interest in composers of later centuries making literal-minded pastiches of those composers' styles. Unless there is something else that draws their interest to the composer, such as the fact that her age has yet to reach double figures.

That is not intended as a value judgement, by the way, that's just my understanding of what audiences have historically been interested. (Although I, personally, would be quite dismayed if the listening public decided to do the 18th century over again.)


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## Bulldog

Many of the postings on this thread have essentially said that we should give Alma a break because she's only 9 years old and that she will develop her voice as the years pass by. I would agree if she was simply composing and playing music in her house or music instructor's venue. But no, she's playing on YouTube and exposing herself to an international audience.

My point is that she's not ready for any kind of audience except for family, friends and fellow little kids. Her music is greatly lacking in any substance for the current or any previous era; her performance standards are also quite low. Hey, at age 16 she might be a fabulous musician. If and when that happens, she will have earned international recognition. As I said before, her current low level of mediocrity is ridiculously being praised as having "genius" qualities. What a joke!!!


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## ArtMusic

Bulldog said:


> Many of the postings on this thread have essentially said that we should give Alma a break because she's only 9 years old and that she will develop her voice as the years pass by. I would agree if she was simply composing and playing music in her house or music instructor's venue. But no, she's playing on YouTube and exposing herself to an international audience.
> 
> My point is that she's not ready for any kind of audience except for family, friends and fellow little kids. Her music is greatly lacking in any substance for the current or any previous era; her performance standards are also quite low. Hey, at age 16 she might be a fabulous musician. If and when that happens, she will have earned international recognition. As I said before, her current low level of mediocrity is ridiculously being praised as having "genius" qualities. What a joke!!!


Could you have composed better?


----------



## PetrB

ArtMusic said:


> Why shocked? People enjoy Mozart and Haydn, don't they? The point is, there is a body of listeners who supports her. Her backing by UNICEF and others for charity proves it.


The pairing of a truly precocious and genuinely darling nine-year old musical prodigy and UNICEF was a public relations dream, and I did find that _wholly appropriate._ A child held up, though a child exceptionally gifted in the extreme, as a poster-girl and advocate for the worth of nurturing, protecting, and investing in the future generations.

N.B. This was not "Please Ms. Deutscher, would you come play your concerto with us? Sincerely, The Vienna Philharmonic."

It was a very well-coordinated and (imo) extremely graceful way to use, and present, this young prodigy in a situation where she would not be subject to the many critics who would say, with all due kindness and respect, "A very gifted prodigy whose music has yet to show any individuality, and we hope to find that her later works will be of great interest." I.e. the venue was chosen to also, I believe, somewhat protect this prodigy from high-profile and very real assessment of her music and performance based on that full professional adult criteria _expected of the true prodigy._

To hammer away at it, without demoting Ms. Deutscher or her musical efforts to date, _prodigy is a term reserved for children,_ ("child prodigy" is redundant) and it is most apt when that child, within the discipline of their talent, demonstrates high ability on a complete par with adult professionals in the same discipline.

That level of achievement has yet to be heard or truly demonstrated in Ms. Deutscher's instrumental playing or her compositions. Some can not, or simply do not care, to discern that difference between 'full adult capability as delivered by a child' and Ms. Deutscher's works, for whatever their reasons. They're welcome to their opinions, but that will not change the tide of contemporary music, music history, re-define "prodigy," or change the present very real critiques of the quality of her performances or compositions.


----------



## violadude

ArtMusic said:


> Could you have composed better?


He's not saying that he should be on youtube and have an international audience instead of Alma, so that's irrelevant to his point. Are you serious, dude?


----------



## Bulldog

ArtMusic said:


> Could you have composed better?


That is one childish question, but I'll answer it because I have lots of experience answering questions from my children, grandchildren and great grandchildren.

No. At my current age of 67 and a few decades away from writing any music, I couldn't come close to the quality that Alma now offers. However, when I was 9 years old, I do believe that the music I was writing was superior to hers. It was more complex, more varied and possessed a mid-20th century sensibility. Yet, nothing I wrote was worthy of public display, and I knew that very well. Yet, Alma doesn't seem to have a clue; neither do you.


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## PetrB

ArtMusic said:


> Could you have composed better?


1.) I will both boldly and with great humility say yes, and not 'could,' but _have._

2.) I can also nearly guarantee you, as small as my gifts are, as relatively conservative the vein in which I compose, you would not like anything I've done to date, because it is not anything like 19th, 18th, or 17th century style music.

3.) Apart from the fact I would need at least several thousands of 'extra' dollars to get enough up-to date gear to make a home recording (midi / samples) which would not completely embarrass me as to its quality, even if I had all those things necessary, I can not at all see presenting any of my work anywhere online.

4.) Maybe I'm talking through my hat. Maybe I own a hat, maybe I don't.

P.s. If 'we' are to take that childish challenge route, _what have you composed?_


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## ArtMusic

PetrB said:


> 1.) I will both boldly and with great humility say yes, and not 'could,' but _have._
> 
> ...


I, or we all here, would love to listen to your music.


----------



## PetrB

ArtMusic said:


> I, or we all here, would love to listen to your music.


Uh, uh, uh. For my most demanding and unyieldingly critical of musician friends and colleagues only. 
If something actually goes public, professionally, then it will be public.


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## Guest

ArtMusic said:


> Could you have composed better?


Could you have composed better than every contemporary composer you've disparaged? No? Why not?


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## ArtMusic

nathanb said:


> Could you have composed better than every contemporary composer you've disparaged? No? Why not?


I'm not interested in composing avant-garde music myself. But I might be interested in composing in a different older style. And I may concede Alma D. is much more gifted than I am. I have no problem with that.


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## PetrB

ArtMusic said:


> I might be interested in composing in a different older style.


With the degree of ardor you seem to exhibit about wanting this older-style music to become more to the fore of popularity in the now of contemporary music, I would think you would be working hard toward being one of the next generation of composers to bring us just that sort of music you advocate.

Q: Other than repeatedly pasting up your opinion on this dear to your heart issue like a one-man army of campaign volunteers putting posters up any place they can just prior election time, what are you doing about it?


----------



## ArtMusic

PetrB said:


> ...
> Q: Other than repeatedly pasting up your opinion on this dear to your heart issue like a one-man army of campaign volunteers putting posters up any place they can just prior election time, what are you doing about it?


Doing about what? I don't follow.


----------



## PetrB

violadude said:


> No, he wasn't writing violin concertos or piano concertos. But his first symphony was written at age 8.


_SNAP!_ There are prodigies, and then _*there are Prodigies*_*.* I especially appreciate he was writing very much in a contemporary style of the time ;-)

These early symphonies are an especial delight if you find a good period instrument performance.


----------



## Guest

KenOC said:


> I regret that you dislike my posts. But an easy solution is available to you.


Wow! Answering a criticism of being a serial diverter with...

...another diversion.

(Just by the way, trazom was not expressing dislike. trazom was asking why you divert discussions away from the music. Why do you consistently and persistently divert discussions away from the music? This is a music board. And, oddly enough, there are some of us here who are here in order to talk about music. What a concept, eh?

As a member of society, you do have certain responsibilities to your fellows. As a member of a discussion group, you are responsible for what you say and how you say it. ToS notwithstanding, anyone who participates in a discussion will be expected to _avoid_ non sequiturs and logical fallacies not use them constantly at every opportunity.

Man up. Join the conversation.)


----------



## SiegendesLicht

Two hundred years ago a musically gifted 9-year old kid would have his nose down in books, learning, practising, perfecting his art until he is mature enough to find his own voice, but never thinking he is something special. Now she is already a little celebrity, the center of attention and some controversy. I think here we have one of the problems with modern music - this instant celebrity cult. The same as with John Cage and Stockhausen with his infamous 9/11 comments that were heatedly discussed on these boards a while ago - doing things to hype themselves up. One would think that at least classical music would be free from it.


----------



## Blancrocher

SiegendesLicht said:


> One would think that at least classical music would be free from it.


Don't let the name mislead you: "classical music" has nothing to do with "class." At least it doesn't _have_ to (thank goodness).


----------



## Guest

SiegendesLicht said:


> Two hundred years ago a musically gifted 9-year old kid would have his nose down in books, learning, practising, perfecting his art until he is mature enough to find his own voice, but never thinking he is something special. Now she is already a little celebrity, the center of attention and some controversy. I think here we have one of the problems with modern music - this instant celebrity cult. The same as with John Cage and Stockhausen with his infamous 9/11 comments that were heatedly discussed on these boards a while ago - doing things to hype themselves up. One would think that at least classical music would be free from it.


"Instant celebrity" cult? Which you then illustrate with two professional composers who worked hard all their lives, who became well-known and successful by their efforts? Stockhausen was an old man, with a long career behind him, when he made that remark. Nothing "instant" about his celebrity. Indeed, had he not already been a celebrity, no one would have paid any attention to his remark at all.


----------



## SiegendesLicht

Blancrocher said:


> Don't let the name mislead you: "classical music" has nothing to do with "class." At least it doesn't _have_ to (thank goodness).


It's not about class, it is about the fact that classical music takes more talent and hard work to compose and a little more effort and attention to appreciate than most other genres. Plus, it is most often judged on its own merits, rather than such extramusical factors as the private-life scandals of the musicians.

As for John Cage, really, how many people would have heard of him or discussed him if it were not for 4'33?


----------



## violadude

SiegendesLicht said:


> It's not about class, it is about the fact that classical music takes more talent and hard work to compose and a little more effort and attention to appreciate than most other genres. Plus, it is most often judged on its own merits, rather than such extramusical factors as the private-life scandals of the musicians.
> 
> As for John Cage, really, how many people would have heard of him or discussed him if it were not for 4'33?


John Cage was already well known for other things too.


----------



## Blancrocher

*post deleted--I'm not sure what I'm arguing about, or why!*


----------



## arpeggio

Blancrocher said:


> *post deleted--I'm not sure what I'm arguing about, or why!*


It happens to me quite frequently too. I frequently have feeling of deja vu. Didn't I just had this argument last week?


----------



## Guest

SiegendesLicht said:


> As for John Cage, really, how many people would have heard of him or discussed him if it were not for 4'33?


 Are we talking about a different guy here? Maybe John Luther Cage?


----------



## SiegendesLicht

nathanb said:


> Are we talking about a different guy here? Maybe John Luther Cage?


Maybe :devil:

But this has nothing to do with the fact that at this age Alma should better be left alone, provided with good teachers and good instruments and encouraged to learn how to unfold her musical giftedness (which she does seem to have) most skillfully. If anything, she may grow up to be a decent movie sountrack composer.


----------



## isorhythm

ArtMusic, a serious question for you - why do you think no great composer in history has ever chosen to compose in an older style?


----------



## PetrB

SiegendesLicht said:


> Two hundred years ago a musically gifted 9-year old kid would have his nose down in books, learning, practising, perfecting his art until he is mature enough to find his own voice, but never thinking he is something special. Now she is already a little celebrity, the center of attention and some controversy. *I think here we have one of the problems with modern music - this instant celebrity cult.* The same as with John Cage and Stockhausen with his infamous 9/11 comments that were heatedly discussed on these boards a while ago - doing things to hype themselves up. One would think that at least classical music would be free from it.


*I hope you are sitting down. You are? Good.

Crass PR maneuvers, coverage and presentation have been creeping into the fine arts since post WWII. One of the first notable shifts was seen when instead of seeing a flyer / playbill advertising a piano recital, for example, which used to read simply, 
"Piano Recital; the program -list of works to be performed; Alfred Brendel, piano." 
The first shift was: 
"Piano Recital; the program - list of works to be played; Alfred Brendel, phrase including superlative adjective(s) pianist.

The ramp up of PR to the same pitch of hype in the fine arts -- as formerly 'reserved' for pop culture-- is currently just about complete :-/*


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## ArtMusic

I wouldn't be concerned with "pop celebrity" when it comes to Alma, or classical music in general. If it doesn't appeal, then it will fade away very quickly.


----------



## Sloe

I can´t see how she is in front of huge exposure because she is on youtube. Anyone can upload videos on youtube and it is full of the most trivial videos if she would be somewhere it should be there then it is up to us to decide to see it or not.


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## PetrB

Sloe said:


> I can´t see how she is in front of huge exposure because she is on youtube. Anyone can upload videos on youtube and it is full of the most trivial videos if she would be somewhere it should be there then it is up to us to decide to see it or not.


She's been on some popular news and interview shows in the U.K. and the United States, so there are multiple postings of clips of those on Youtube.

Remember Emily Bear? 
Remember Nathan Green? 
Remember A___ D________?

Right.


----------



## sadams

PetrB said:


> She's been on some popular news and interview shows in the U.K. and the United States, so there are multiple postings of clips of those on Youtube.
> 
> Remember Emily Bear?
> Remember Nathan Green?
> Remember A___ D________?
> 
> Right.


Emily Bear "Les Voyages" World premier





The video above was from last Christmas Eve. (24.DEC.2014) So Emily has not disappeared and is still very active. there is as of 7.FEB.2015 two other videos from this concert and more on the way including her performance of Gershwin's "Rhapsody in Blue"


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## violadude

sadams said:


> Emily Bear "Les Voyages" World premier


The thought that immediately comes to mind: Movie Soundtrack.


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## PetrB

sadams said:


> Emily Bear "Les Voyages" World premier


ADD:


violadude said:


> The thought that immediately comes to mind: Movie Soundtrack.


Violadude... I had not even seen your post when I wrote the below. Filmic, generic = film score. Exactly. END ADD:

That piece was about as forgettable as many a generic contemporary romantic tinged film score.

I'm thinking Ms. Bear and Mr. Green will both end up as film composers -- Mr. Green maybe on of 'the fastest composers alive.'

We'll have to wait and see what happens to the English wunderkiddie.


----------



## sadams

violadude said:


> The thought that immediately comes to mind: Movie Soundtrack.


From what I've read Emily is already being approached by Disney to film scores


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## violadude

sadams said:


> From what I've read Emily is already being approached by Disney to film scores


Yup, it sounds exactly like a Disney Film score.


----------



## sadams

Here is another video from Emily's Christmas Eve concert

*Emily Bear - Bumble BEAR Boogie*


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## violadude

sadams said:


> Here is another video from Emily's Christmas Eve concert
> 
> *Emily Bear - Bumble BEAR Boogie*


Hm...

Is it in bad taste to put your last name in the name of your piece? Especially if it's ripping off another composer. Shouldn't it be like, the Rimsky-Korsokov Boogie?


----------



## PetrB

sadams said:


> Here is another video from Emily's Christmas Eve concert
> 
> *Emily Bear - Bumble BEAR Boogie*


Sorry, _Les Voyages_ was already too much to bear -- so to speak


----------



## sadams

violadude said:


> Hm...
> 
> Is it in bad taste to put your last name in the name of your piece? Especially if it's ripping off another composer. Shouldn't it be like, the Rimsky-Korsokov Boogie?


If you want to accuse somebody of ripping of another composer accuse *Jack Fina* who did the original boogie-woogie piano arrangement of "Flight of the Bumblebee" and* Christopher Jahnke *who arranged and orchestrated this for Emily.


----------



## violadude

sadams said:


> If you want to accuse somebody of ripping of another composer accuse *Jack Fina* who did the original boogie-woogie piano arrangement of "Flight of the Bumblebee" and* Christopher Jahnke *who arranged and orchestrated this for Emily.


Ah,

So what did Emily do, exactly?


----------



## sadams

violadude said:


> Ah,
> 
> So what did Emily do, exactly?


My guess is that it was probably given that title by Christopher Jahnke because this arrangement was written for Emily and he wanted to distinguish it from other orchestra arrangements of "The bumble Boogie". Now that is only a theory


----------



## Dustin

I'm not going to hop back on this Alma Deutscher steam-train again but I just have one question that I've also posed once before. Why is it ok for Prokofiev's "Classical" symphony to be so highly regarded when it possesses a lot in common with the Classical Period style music? Is it because Prokofiev innovated enough within that form and sound world that it was ok? And we're assuming that none of these up-and-comers have any chance to introduce their own innovations into their Classical sounding pieces as time goes on?


----------



## violadude

Dustin said:


> I'm not going to hop back on this Alma Deutscher steam-train again but I just have one question that I've also posed once before. Why is it ok for Prokofiev's "Classical" symphony to be so highly regarded when it possesses a lot in common with the Classical Period style music? Is it because Prokofiev innovated enough within that form and sound world that it was ok? And we're assuming that none of these up-and-comers have any chance to introduce their own innovations into their Classical sounding pieces as time goes on?


I think many people have already answered this, but in short, Prokofiev's Classical Symphony is not literally written in a Classical Style. It's written in a 20th century style.


----------



## Dustin

violadude said:


> I think many people have already answered this, but in short, Prokofiev's Classical Symphony is not literally written in a Classical Style. It's written in a 20th century style.


I didn't say it was written in the Classical Style. I said "possesses a lot in common with the Classical Period style music".

And by the way, as I was roaming through the posts I didn't notice anyone had answered the question that I hadn't posed yet.


----------



## violadude

Dustin said:


> I didn't say it was written in the Classical Style. I said "possesses a lot in common with the Classical Period style music".


Okay and that's the difference between what Prokofiev did and what Alma is doing...


----------



## Dustin

violadude said:


> Okay and that's the difference between what Prokofiev did and what Alma is doing...


Also, as I referenced in my original post, "And we're assuming that none of these up-and-comers have any chance to introduce their own innovations into their Classical sounding pieces as time goes on?"


----------



## Guest

Dustin said:


> Also, as I referenced in my original post, "And we're assuming that none of these up-and-comers have any chance to introduce their own innovations into their Classical sounding pieces as time goes on?"


No one's claiming to know the future in this thread (well, besides a certain resident meisterbaiter). People have only expressed concern over the current path, in HOPE of a more ideal future.


----------



## Dustin

nathanb said:


> No one's claiming to know the future in this thread (well, besides a certain resident meisterbaiter). People have only expressed concern over the current path, in HOPE of a more ideal future.


Well assuming she does "introduce her own innovations into her Classical sounding pieces" at a later time, what is the point of criticizing and having concern over her current point on this path you mentioned. We don't even know for sure where the path is going to take her. Of course she's gonna suck right now (relative to a mature composer), she's only 9.

And I get the feeling plenty in this thread are oozing a bit of fortune-teller vibe by claiming they are certain she is on a path to obscurity.


----------



## violadude

Dustin said:


> Also, as I referenced in my original post, "And we're assuming that none of these up-and-comers have any chance to introduce their own innovations into their Classical sounding pieces as time goes on?"


No, we'll judge how those go when they come. There's no point in talking about what hasn't happened yet.


----------



## ArtMusic

violadude said:


> No, we'll judge how those go when they come. There's no point in talking about what hasn't happened yet.


Correct. The only thing that we can comment for sure was what happened at the premiere, which was a well received concert and with delighted audience. We are in no position to discredit that if the audience at that concert listening to her newly composed music enjoyed it.


----------



## Dustin

violadude said:


> No, we'll judge how those go when they come. There's no point in talking about what hasn't happened yet.


But everyone here IS talking about what hasn't happened yet. She's 9... And they're using her current musical prowess as an almost sure-fire indicator that she won't amount to anything in the future.


----------



## violadude

Dustin said:


> But everyone here IS talking about what hasn't happened yet. She's 9... And they're using her current musical prowess as an almost sure-fire indicator that she won't amount to anything in the future.


Most people are projecting her current style into the future. IF she doesn't change, this will be the result. If she does change then there is no way to tell because we haven't heard the change yet.


----------



## KenOC

She is obviously a prodigy who has attracted a lot of attention. World-shaking music that will be with us a hundred years from now? I doubt it very much. But I think the criticisms of a nine year-old girl for the lack of "modernity" of her musical style is one of the most absurd and astonishing things I've run into for a long time. Who would have thought it?


----------



## violadude

KenOC said:


> She is obviously a prodigy who has attracted a lot of attention. World-shaking music that will be with us a hundred years from now? I doubt it very much. But I think the criticisms of a nine year-old girl for the lack of "modernity" of her musical style is one of the most absurd and astonishing things I've run into for a long time. Who would have thought it?


Ya, almost as absurd as promoting a 9 year old of mediocre talent by adult standards as some kind of messianic savior of contemporary music.

Not pointing at you of course...


----------



## PetrB

Dustin said:


> But everyone here IS talking about what hasn't happened yet. She's 9... And they're using her current musical prowess as an almost sure-fire indicator that she won't amount to anything in the future.


That is just so wrong I am nearly as offended as those who seem to be offended that her critics are not falling all over the miraculous next child later to be great composer.

Some children, and older people, seem to get this gift, like an additional and very strong and fast processor chip, to readily mimic / replicate older styles while 'making them up anew.'

This is very much a knack of pattern recognition, including musical harmonic procedures, with that additional 'original' bit, i.e. they can generate new works in that style which are, in fact, technically "original." The better of them make things which are musical, sound expressive, and can include some of the sophisticated hesitations, harmonic tricks and delays which make us surprised and delighted, say, with Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven.

What they haven't shown _is one scrap of sounding as if that same set of ears, with that recognition chip, has picked up on any more current music than the early classical to the early-mid romantic,_ (do they live in such a vacuum, hearing nothing like 20th century or later music at least in their pseudo-imitative states as bits of film scores?)

Prokofiev composed something "Haydnesque," and in an older form, which was his aim and intent, while approaching it as if Prokofiev were a contemporary Haydn, and had some of those formalist habits and musical traits, while still very much speaking like Prokofiev.

Erich Wolgang Korngold wrote, about age 11, I think, a piano sonata _in the general late romantic style of his own time._ I don't know what he was doing at age eight or nine.

So, as remarkably talented as she is, Deutscher has yet to only display she has this freakily precocious 'imitative chip.' No one, I believe, has projected a future for her where she is stuck with that, but instead has advocated not overpraising these well-done retro imitative pieces she is now doing, and leaving her to develop and see where she goes.

Someone posted an Emily Bear work, she also precocious in her childhood, and that lately written orchestral piece, written when she was thirteen *(that corrected from the originally written eighteen)* sounds like an interchangeably generic film score.

I saw a documentary on an English maths prodigy who finished her highest diploma at one of the more prestige of English universities at the age most children as still in middle middle school. Her tutor, without dissing her at all, pointedly told her _she would be considered as no more than excessively clever until she had made a significantly new contribution to the field._ Ditto for Deutscher... and all the better reason to let her current limelight dim to nothing while she continues with her studies, and better to wait until much later to pass any judgment at all on her real individual talent as later developed. Right now, she is an oddity with that precocious pattern-recognition imitative chip _only._

Leave the kid be, check in on her progress, say, eight years or so from now.


----------



## Dustin

PetrB said:


> That is just so wrong I am nearly as offended as those who seem to be offended that her critics are not falling all over the miraculous next child later to be great composer.
> 
> Some children, and older people, seem to get this gift, like an additional and very strong and fast processor chip, to readily mimic / replicate older styles while 'making them up anew.'
> 
> This is very much a knack of pattern recognition, including musical harmonic procedures, with that additional 'original' bit, i.e. they can generate new works in that style which are, in fact, technically "original." The better of them make things which are musical, sound expressive, and can include some of the sophisticated hesitations, harmonic tricks and delays which make us surprised and delighted, say, with Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven.
> 
> What they haven't shown _is one scrap of sounding as if that same set of ears, with that recognition chip, has picked up on any more current music than the early classical to the early-mid romantic,_ (do they live in such a vacuum, hearing nothing like 20th century or later music at least in their pseudo-imitative states as bits of film scores?)
> 
> Prokofiev composed something "Haydnesque," and in an older form, which was his aim and intent, while approaching it as if Prokofiev were a contemporary Haydn, and had some of those formalist habits and musical traits, while still very much speaking like Prokofiev.
> 
> Erich Wolgang Korngold wrote, about age 11, I think, a piano sonata _in the general late romantic style of his own time._ I don't know what he was doing at age eight or nine.
> 
> So, as remarkably talented as she is, Deutscher has yet to only display she has this freakily precocious 'imitative chip.' No one, I believe, has projected a future for her where she is stuck with that, but instead has advocated not overpraising these well-done retro imitative pieces she is now doing, and leaving her to develop and see where she goes.
> 
> Someone posted an Emily Bear work, she also precocious in her childhood, and that lately written orchestral piece, written when she was eighteen (or thereabouts) sounds like an interchangeably generic film score.
> 
> A maths prodigy, English, finished her highest diploma at one of the more prestige of English universities at the age most children as still in middle middle school. I saw a documentary on her. Her tutor, without dissing her at all, pointedly told her she was no more than excessively clever until she had made a significant _new_ contribution to the field. Ditto for Deutscher... and all the better reason to let her current limelight dim to nothing while she continues with her studies, and better to wait until much later to pass any judgment at all on her real individual talent as later developed. Right now, she is an oddity with that precocious pattern-recognition imitative chip _only._
> 
> Leave the kid be, check in on her progress, say, eight years or so from now.


Good points and I agree. Although I still do believe some here(not you) are speaking of her in a bit harsher tones. However, like you say I don't see any sense criticizing her current style, nor praising her as the sure next big thing.


----------



## sadams

PetrB said:


> Someone posted an Emily Bear work, she also precocious in her childhood, and that lately written orchestral piece, written when she was eighteen (or thereabouts) sounds like an interchangeably generic film score.


Emily Bear was at the time of that video thirteen not eighteen. Which means that she is only about four years or so older than Alma. Emily was born in 2001


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## PetrB

Dustin said:


> Good points and I agree. Although I still do believe some here(not you) are speaking of her in a bit harsher tones. However, like you say I don't see any sense criticizing her current style, nor praising her as the sure next big thing.


My tone has not been any harsher than in my last post, though some might care to think that.... I am not very concerned with others perceptions of the harshness of my 'tone,' and it might be that I've become known for that by those who would rather prefer to politely gloss over everything.

But a lot of the frustration on my part, and I believe on the others who have been saying similar about the external flap about Ms. Deutscher or this internal TC flap... well, I'll just say it. *Where the hell is discernment on the part of so many listeners that they can not hear that Deutscher's performance is nowhere near the level of other great violin or piano prodigies.* (this makes me wonder exactly what these people are hearing when they listen to music performance in general, and what they hear -- at least enough to discuss a composition....)

Deutscher's playing is not nearly as remarkable as that of other prodigies when they were her age. There are far fewer music composition prodigies, but enough of them have been named in this thread, historic, to also remind those so gaga over this child that she is not up to those standards either!

All the more reason to let her get about her business, out of the spotlight, and wait until later to see what she comes up with.


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## PetrB

sadams said:


> Emily Bear was at the time of that video thirteen not eighteen. Which means that she is only about four years or so older than Alma.


Still doesn't change the fact that score sounds like an interchangeably generic popular film score -- no mean feat, but not very promising for a new original voice in classical music, now, is it?

ADD: error corrected in edited post.


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## sadams

PetrB said:


> Still doesn't change the fact that score sounds like an interchangeably generic popular film score -- no mean feat, but not very promising for a new original voice in classical music, now, is it?


I was just correcting your error, that's all.


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## PetrB

sadams said:


> I was just correcting your error, that's all.


Of minor errors on things like dates, not that I think the error of much import in the context of the post, PM's are often the way to go.

No matter, I imagine the later Wiki article on Ms. Bear will keep the record straight


----------



## Ludric

PetrB said:


> ...
> 
> Some children, and older people, seem to get this gift, like an additional and very strong and fast processor chip, to readily mimic / replicate older styles while 'making them up anew.'
> 
> What they haven't shown _is one scrap of sounding as if that same set of ears, with that recognition chip, has picked up on any more current music than the early classical to the early-mid romantic,_ (do they live in such a vacuum, hearing nothing like 20th century or later music at least in their pseudo-imitative states as bits of film scores?)
> 
> ...
> 
> Erich Wolgang Korngold wrote, about age 11, I think, a piano sonata _in the general late romantic style of his own time._ I don't know what he was doing at age eight or nine.
> 
> So, as remarkably talented as she is, Deutscher has yet to only display she has this freakily precocious 'imitative chip.' ...


Then wasn't Korngold just imitating the music that he heard? Not really contributing anything new and innovative? Isn't this the same kind of imitation that Alma Deutscher displays, with the only difference being the kind of music that is imitated? All of the great composers began by imitating the music that they heard and enjoyed. Deutscher is no different in this regard. The only difference being that the vast majority of music she hears is not of her time, however, this shouldn't be seen as a mark against her as she is still developing her craft and no doubt discovering new works and more styles of music.

Who knows? Perhaps she will develop a style that still uses many of the same Classical and mid-nineteenth century mannerisms she uses now, but is unquestionably unique and unmistakably a newly developed contemporary style all the same.


----------



## PetrB

Ludric said:


> Then wasn't Korngold just imitating the music that he heard? Not really contributing anything new and innovative? Isn't this the same kind of imitation that Alma Deutscher displays, with the only difference being the kind of music that is imitated? All of the great composers began by imitating the music that they heard and enjoyed. Deutscher is no different in this regard. The only difference being that the vast majority of music she hears is not of her time, however, this shouldn't be seen as a mark against her as she is still developing her craft and no doubt discovering new works and more styles of music.
> 
> Who knows? Perhaps she will develop a style that still uses many of the same classical and mid-nineteenth century mannerisms she uses now, but is unquestionably unique and unmistakably a newly developed contemporary style all the same.


Korngold was, imitative or not, writing fresh contemporary music, in the contemporary style of his time. That seems to be far more valued (and perhaps indicative of a more realistic chance of developing into a future composer of contemporary classical music) than imitating composers who have been pretty much in the semiotic data bank trust for one to two hundred and fifty years.


----------



## Ludric

PetrB said:


> Korngold was, imitative or not, writing fresh contemporary music, in the contemporary style of his time. That seems to be far more valued (and perhaps indicative of a more realistic chance of developing into a future composer of contemporary classical music) than imitating composers who have been pretty much in the semiotic data bank trust for one to two hundred and fifty years.


Then perhaps Alma Deutscher will represent a curious case which might produce interesting results: a talented young composer who began composing in a Classical to mid-nineteenth style, only to later incorporate elements of contemporary music to produce a unique style enjoyed by many. A style that could not have been developed without first composing in those earlier styles. It's only hypothetical but it does not seem too far-fetched. Only time will tell.


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## PetrB

Ludric said:


> Then perhaps Alma Deutscher will represent a curious case which might produce interesting results: a talented young composer who began composing in a Classical to mid-nineteenth style, only to later incorporate elements of contemporary music to produce a unique style enjoyed by many. A style that could not have been developed without first composing in those earlier styles. It's only hypothetical but it does not seem too far-fetched. Only time will tell.


The near entire direction of criticism of making such a fuss now is pretty much based upon that -- far too early to tell anything other than she has an exceptional ability -- now for imitating, but she is nine. Most who train start with the older music, the theory from it, and go through the standard pedagogic progression. No reason she should be any different, and that is the reason to wait -- for a good handful of years, at least -- to see what she will or will not come up with.

The other aspect of the criticism is about the making of a huge uproarious fuss, basically, over something akin to a clever and very cute performing animal, which debases the child no end and prevents her from having any sort of normal childhood, which is of a prime and vital importance for her while she pursues her talent and its development, as well as her general personal development.


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## Ludric

PetrB said:


> The near entire direction of criticism of making such a fuss now is pretty much based upon that -- far too early to tell anything other than she has an exceptional ability -- now for imitating, but she is nine. Most who train start with the older music, the theory from it, and go through the standard pedagogic progression. No reason she should be any different, and that is the reason to wait -- for a good handful of years, at least -- to see what she will or will not come up with.
> 
> The other aspect of the criticism is about the making of a huge uproarious fuss, basically, over something akin to a clever and very cute performing animal, which debases the child no end and prevents her from having any sort of normal childhood, which is of a prime and vital importance for her while she pursues her talent and its development, as well as her general personal development.


I feel that the criticism of not letting her have a "normal childhood" is misguided. Most children with great talents tend not to have "normal childhoods", and it would seem a disservice to their talents to let them live a normal childhood. Surely you wouldn't disagree that this is great experience which is fostering her talents: meeting and working with other musicians, preparing for concerts (making deadlines), performing live in front of an audience (and rather large ones), and more. Contrary to what it may seem like, Alma's parents are not actively pushing her into the public's eye. They are quite selective of the shows she appears on (I believe she's only been on two) and they turn down interviews far more than not. Apart from a few Youtube videos, concerts, and playing at small venues, she doesn't have that much public exposure. Furthermore, it's clear that this is what she loves doing. She loves composing, performing, and even going on talk shows, and I doubt she would trade that for a "normal childhood". It should be noted that she has at least a couple (very normal) siblings, so I doubt she is missing out on most of the normal childhood stuff either.

In any case, how many of today's great musicians began their performing careers while still quite young, often in their teens? This kind of early experience no doubt helps foster one's talents, building confidence and motivation, and not to mention creating connections that will be of value in the future.


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## KenOC

By the time Mozart was nine, he had visited and played in Vienna, Prague, Munich, Mannheim, Paris, and the Hague. At eight he was in London visiting JC Bach. No, not a normal childhood.


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## PetrB

Ludric said:


> In any case, *how many of today's great musicians began their performing careers while still quite young, often in their teens?* This kind of early experience no doubt helps foster one's talents, building confidence and motivation, and not to mention creating connections that will be of value in the future.


You look to just about any working concert pianist, they began lessons between age two to four, and have some early performing experience. Ditto for most top of the line orchestral instrumentalists. *The answer to the question is, "Just about all of them."*

I'm aware of the limited exposure for Deutscher, and I'm all for it. I'm quite convinced her fifteen minutes of childhood fame has already been had, and overextended by at least one TC member who seems to think she is the second coming as far as writing a style of music which is accessible, can be popular, and that the savior of contemporary music.

This second thread here just adds more undeserved minutes to that already way overextended fifteen minutes -- that fifteen minutes about all the attention any prodigy should have, or is worth, until they age and later develop.


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## ahammel

KenOC said:


> By the time Mozart was nine, he had visited and played in Vienna, Prague, Munich, Mannheim, Paris, and the Hague. At eight he was in London visiting JC Bach. No, not a normal childhood.


And, to be fair, Mozart was really weird.


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## Woodduck

All issues of prodigyhood aside, how good a piece is this concerto? Its themes are attractive, varied, immediately memorable, and susceptible of development, it shows an understanding of harmony in its expressive and structural functions, its orchestration is inventive and often quite beautiful, the violin writing sounds idiomatic to me (a non-violinist), its form progresses plausibly with really very few hesitant moments or awkward gestures - a pretty fair mastery of the skills necessary to the task. It may be pure 19th-century, yet I've heard much less fresh, attractive music from actual 19th-century composers. We might want to call this "pastiche," but that has an implication of artificiality - whereas, to my ears at least, Deutscher is not "putting something together" here but composing in a style which is really innate and instinctive to her. This is clearly the music she knows, loves, and feels genuinely. I suspect a fine performance by a fully accomplished violinist and a little more fire on the podium would capitalize on its strengths and give a better impression of it to some who have criticized it.


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## Johannes V

In my view, she writes as a person who, growing up in and having read only works of an early-modern environment (for whatever hypothetical reason might be put to it), would write early modern English. But, it is an issue that something merely being natural to one doesn't necessitate its being good as a consequence. There were many men of the early modern period whose being natural to the language did not necessitate that they produce good works. The issues for a "pastiche" artist are twofold: they must not only become accustomed to a language which in most cases is not naturally theirs, but also write something good in it. Ms Deutscher's being natural to the classical language does not in any way exclude her from producing mediocre works. And as evidenced by the amount artists who were truly of that era who did not produce anything worth mention, it is unlikely that she will, but she is only a child.

To me it seems the production of good works is not only reliant on the naturalness of particular person's to a style or language, but also on there being a surrounding culture which is natural as well, complete with all the talents and mediocrities that this implies. It is almost a numbers game, a matter of statistics that determines whether or not good works can be produced in a style. And this is why one rarely finds good artists who produce in a fixed language works comparable to those who lived in the period to which it is associated. The one way, it seems to me, for there to be any good works made in the classical or romantic style is that there be a full-scale cultural revival, which is unlikely.


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## Sloe

PetrB said:


> She's been on some popular news and interview shows in the U.K. and the United States, so there are multiple postings of clips of those on Youtube.
> .


That is another thing.
I was only objecting to the statements that she should have no public exposure at *all*.


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## Marschallin Blair

> PetrB: Someone posted an Emily Bear work, she also precocious in her childhood, and that lately written orchestral piece, written when she was thirteen (that corrected from the originally written eighteen) sounds like an interchangeably generic film score.


Why should a nine year old girl be taken to task for writing music that sounds like a film score when in fact a grown man and _avant guardist _like Berio does it all the time?






_Ekphrasis_ sounds like something that could be tracked to Ridley Scott's science fiction film _Prometheus_.


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## Guest

Writing more accessible content BECAUSE you are writing a film score is not exactly the same as writing such banal (non-film) music that your entire oeuvre could be mistaken for third-rate film scores. Try to follow along with this logical progression before posting again.


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## sadams

http://www.almadeutscher.com/reviews/

The top review is a review by a Spanish newspaper (in English) of the performance of Alma's Violin Concerto


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## Morimur

Good Lord. All this Deutcher worship is _disturbing_, to say the least.


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## isorhythm

I'm rooting for the adult Deutscher to become a composer of radical music that her current fans absolutely hate. That would be the most satisfying outcome here.


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## KenOC

isorhythm said:


> I'm rooting for the adult Deutscher to become a composer of radical music that her current fans absolutely hate. That would be the most satisfying outcome here.


So you're saying that fans of this young lady deserve punishment by her writing music they dislike? Really? Or is there a missing smiley somewhere?


----------



## isorhythm

KenOC said:


> So you're saying that fans of this young lady deserve punishment by her writing music they dislike? Really? Or is there a missing smiley somewhere?


Well, it was a joke, yeah.

I guess the real most satisfying outcome would be if she continued with her composing career and developed an original, contemporary style as an adult, and her current fans stuck with her.


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## PetrB

KenOC said:


> So you're saying that fans of this young lady deserve punishment by her writing music they dislike? Really? Or is there a missing smiley somewhere?


Seriously, if she 'grows up' musically, the likelihood is those who are earnest fans because of what and how she writes now will not later be happy camp-followers... i.e. she will no longer be 'cute,' and the music not as 'accessible' as Hummel to Bruch, etc. Those who view her, and her 'contemporary music' as some God-sent redemption of contemporary music (so far, a fan base of only one that I know of might later feel betrayed!


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## PetrB

isorhythm said:


> Well, it was a joke, yeah.
> 
> I guess the real most satisfying outcome would be if she continued with her composing career and developed an original, contemporary style as an adult, and her current fans stuck with her.


I think that would be tantamount to a miracle, especially if she later develops a more contemporary 'atonal' manner of writing.


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## Guest

More education by TC; I'd not heard of Alma Deutcher.

My first thought (there may be others), sparked by my interest in jazz (historically more than currently) is that I am reminded of The Coming of Wynton Marsalis. His trad retread of a prior period of jazz (as if anything post 1970 simply had not occurred) has done nothing for jazz as a creative living art form (unsurprisingly), but has garnered the man himself plenty of lucre and a nice collection of gongs. 

Nostalgia is the new future. :devil:


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## quack

arpeggio said:


> I am sure that we can up with a large list of prodigies that never lived up to their potential, like the Englishman William Crotch.


Who could ever live up to a name like that. Sorry for the off topic, carry on with your child abuse.


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## Guest

Morimur said:


> Good Lord. All this Deutcher worship is _disturbing_, to say the least.


She will walk amongst the people with a certain charm. And then seven trumpets will sound yada yada yada (I never did memorize Revelation  ).


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## isorhythm

PetrB said:


> I think that would be tantamount to a miracle, especially if she later develops a more contemporary 'atonal' manner of writing.


Even if she wrote in a more conservative, consonant style - nothing wrong with that, many great composers of the last century have - it won't be enough for people who seem to want a literal return to the 19th century.

But if I had to put money on it, I'd say she goes into pop music of some kind.


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## CBD

I don't think it's a problem that she is emulating an earlier style. My problem is how bland and lifeless her music seems. It's like someone programmed her to write this music. Based on my experience with other prodigies, I would not be surprised if behind her are two pushy parents and a strict composition teacher. I do think she has talent, but I think it has been ruined by limiting her compositional thinking before she has had time to explore and develop her musical language on her own (I am speculating, of course. she could be entirely self-motivated, but I have met both self-motivated and parent-motivated musical children, and I have never met self-motivated children with playing and composition that bland).


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## PetrB

isorhythm said:


> Even if she wrote in a more conservative, consonant style - nothing wrong with that, many great composers of the last century have - it won't be enough for people who seem to want a literal return to the 19th century.
> 
> But if I had to put money on it, I'd say she goes into pop music of some kind.


... and lives with but does not marry Peter Prokofiev's grandson.


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## Hmmbug

I wonder if Alma's parents have seen this thread...


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## Johannes V

I suppose it is ungentlemanly to demand something of a little girl, however I really do wish she develop a neo-classical style, at the very least.


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## Woodduck

Johannes V said:


> I suppose it is ungentlemanly to demand something of a little girl, however I really do wish she develop a neo-classical style, at the very least.


At least wait till she's neo-prepubescent.


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## ArtMusic

isorhythm said:


> Well, it was a joke, yeah.
> 
> I guess the real most satisfying outcome would be if she continued with her composing career and developed an original, contemporary style as an adult, and her current fans stuck with her.


Or just write music that people, not fringe group listeners, will enjoy. She will soar to success.


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## PetrB

ArtMusic said:


> Or just write music that people, not fringe group listeners, will enjoy. She will soar to success.


Oh, please.... you wish that only ten people liked Ligeti, for example? Dream on.
Ligeti had a highly successful career, "Soared to Success."

This view of the classical musical world, I'm afraid, is from a tiny island of egocentricity, and has little to do with the reality -- a reality, it appears, that some make their near full-time work to deny.


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## ArtMusic

Alma's reality as far as that violin concerto was concern, was one that was widely accepted by premier audiences, also looking forward to the Allegro.


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## PetrB

ArtMusic said:


> Alma's reality as far as that violin concerto was concern, was one that was widely accepted by premier audiences, also looking forward to the Allegro.


Premiere audiences are not a charitable fund-raiser for UNICEF, nor a gentle and safe atmosphere of a well-chosen Spanish orchestra, and an accompanying very kind press.

Where are the acclaimed performances in front of audiences of the Major orchestras of the world, London, Berlin, Vienna, Cleveland, Copenhagen, Chicago, Concertgebouw -- and the concert-goers and the music critics of those major orchestras?

Maybe later, and I wish it for her, but what you see is not in the scale of importance you clearly wish for, and it is not -- imo -- a wish for this young child composer but a wish more in hopes "that sort" of retro-conservative music becomes the next contemporary music fashion.

Those were not significant events or orchestras, but wisely and carefully chosen venues calculated to be more than gentle with this child composer's current efforts. The performances with the major players in the major music centers have yet to happen, and if they do with what she has currently written, they will be with the child as soloist, and specifically on a program more of a pops classical nature than her work programmed along with other contemporary music written by accomplished adults.

I'm convinced you really do not want to see or realize this, so great are your hopes that this retro-conservative 'old-style' music becomes the new way for the contemporary classical scene. I think it is a very childish and naive view of what could happen; the belief it should happen also childish and naive in the extreme.


----------



## ArtMusic

PetrB said:


> Premiere audiences are not a charitable fund-raiser for UNICEF, nor a gentle and safe atmosphere of a well-chosen Spanish orchestra, and an accompanying very kind press.
> 
> Where are the acclaimed performances in front of audiences of the Major orchestras of the world, London, Berlin, Vienna, Cleveland, Copenhagen, Chicago, Concertgebouw -- and the concert-goers and the music critics of those major orchestras?
> 
> Maybe later, and I wish it for her, but what you see is not in the scale of importance you clearly wish for, and it is not -- imo -- a wish for this young child composer but a wish more in hopes "that sort" of retro-conservative music becomes the net contemporary music fashion.
> 
> Those were not significant events or orchestras, but wisely and carefully chosen venues calculated to be more than gentle with this child composer's current efforts. The performances with the major players in the major music centers have yet to happen, and if they do with what she has currently written, they will be with the child as soloist, and specifically on a program more of a pops classical nature than her work programmed along with other contemporary music written by accomplished adults.
> 
> I'm convinced you really do not want to see or realize this, so great are your hopes that this retro-conservative 'old-style' music becomes the new way for the contemporary classical scene. I think it is a very childish and naive view of what could happen; the belief it should happen also childish and naive in the extreme.


Let me ask you this, *again*, which I don't think you have really answered: I don't have a problem supporting Alma Deutshcer, _but do you_? :tiphat:


----------



## dgee

PetrB said:


> Premiere audiences are not a charitable fund-raiser for UNICEF, nor a gentle and safe atmosphere of a well-chosen Spanish orchestra, and an accompanying very kind press.
> 
> Where are the acclaimed performances in front of audiences of the Major orchestras of the world, London, Berlin, Vienna, Cleveland, Copenhagen, Chicago, Concertgebouw -- and the concert-goers and the music critics of those major orchestras?
> 
> Maybe later, and I wish it for her, but what you see is not in the scale of importance you clearly wish for, and it is not -- imo -- a wish for this young child composer but a wish more in hopes "that sort" of retro-conservative music becomes the net contemporary music fashion.
> 
> Those were not significant events or orchestras, but wisely and carefully chosen venues calculated to be more than gentle with this child composer's current efforts. The performances with the major players in the major music centers have yet to happen, and if they do with what she has currently written, they will be with the child as soloist, and specifically on a program more of a pops classical nature than her work programmed along with other contemporary music written by accomplished adults.
> 
> I'm convinced you really do not want to see or realize this, so great are your hopes that this retro-conservative 'old-style' music becomes the new way for the contemporary classical scene. I think it is a very childish and naive view of what could happen; the belief it should happen also childish and naive in the extreme.


Art, a good friend of mine had his (IIRC) 4th Piano Concerto rapturously received by premier audiences when he was but 13. I should know, as I played in the young persons orchestra! It was in a style sthat drew on the slushiest Rachmaninov and the most acerbic Prokofiev and I thought it was the greatest achievement imaginable at the time. He was lauded in TV and in newspapers. Maybe he was just a bit too spotty by the time this fame reached him

Later in his teens a harsh rejection of music came, punk bands, drugs etc. It was difficult to make it in the adult world of music. Noone cared about being good for a kid any more! Now a minor player in the film industry who can still, almost secretly, play through some Chopin for pleasure or read chamber music with old friends

Alma has to break through in an adult world, and judging by the quality of her composition and playing that's a long way off. But that's OK because she's only 9 or 11 or whatever it is now


----------



## dgee

ArtMusic said:


> Let me ask you this, *again*, which I don't think you have really answered: I don't have a problem supporting Alma Deutshcer, _but do you_? :tiphat:


I know it wasn't directed at me, but I'd be happy supporting Alma Deutscher as a super-talented kid. I would not be happy supporting Alma Deutscher as she is now as a producer of contemporary music to be judged alongside adult or even as an up-and-coming composer (or violinist) - she is simply "not there" on either of those skills at this point. Let's hope at 10 or whatever she can grow into whatever chops she does have - or do whatever else she'd like to do


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## isorhythm

ArtMusic said:


> Or just write music that people, not fringe group listeners, will enjoy. She will soar to success.


Yes, this is exactly what I hope for her.


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## DiesIraeCX

PetrB said:


> The pairing of a truly precocious and genuinely darling nine-year old musical prodigy and UNICEF was a public relations dream, and I did find that _wholly appropriate._ A child held up, though a child exceptionally gifted in the extreme, as a poster-girl and advocate for the worth of nurturing, protecting, and investing in the future generations.





PetrB said:


> Where are the acclaimed performances in front of audiences of the Major orchestras of the world, London, Berlin, Vienna, Cleveland, Copenhagen, Chicago, Concertgebouw -- and the concert-goers and the music critics of those major orchestras?
> 
> Maybe later, *and I wish it for her*...





ArtMusic said:


> Let me ask you this, *again*, which I don't think you have really answered: I don't have a problem supporting Alma Deutshcer, _but do you_? :tiphat:


ArtMusic, I shouldn't speak on PetrB's behalf, but I do think you're misinterpreting his posts. He has praised her talent, called her exceptionally gifted, has wished her well on multiple occasions. Where is this "_problem with supporting her_" coming from? He's just seems to be very realistic about all of this. If someone says that she isn't quite up to the level of prodigy yet (adult level) but wishes it for her _and_ more, what's the problem?

I wish her all the best, of course.


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## elgar's ghost

I for one wish her well but I tend to be a bit uneasy people this age being over-hyped and fast-tracked - I just hope that the people behind her career allow her to lead a normal life and don't push her too hard.


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