# Shostakovich 7th and Bolero?



## DTut

The relentless building theme in the 7th (Leningrad) Symphony reminds me _a bit_ of Ravel's Bolero.

There are some surface-level similarities in the style: repetition, the swelling of the theme and the crescendo, etc. The context of the these two pieces couldn't be more different but listening to the 1st mov't today the Bolero just popped in my head. Has anyone else noticed this?

Dave


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## elgar's ghost

I can see where you're coming from but I think the fact that both use snare drums prominently makes them sound more similar than they actually are. The section from DSCH's 7th reminds me more of Respighi's _I pini della Via Appia_ and even Holst's _Mars, the Bringer of War_ than Boléro as both are aggressively martial in nature whereas Boléro is smooth and slinky.


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## DTut

_Holst's Mars, the Bringer of War than Boléro as both are aggressively martial in nature whereas Boléro is smooth and slinky. _

I agree.

Some may think the 7th's repetitive theme is annoying, or worse yet--boring, and goes on way too long. I think it's great that the key, instrumentation, and dynamics change all the way to the end of that section.


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## elgar's ghost

Yes, the 'invasion' section tends to be the part which makes many naysayers of the 7th grind their teeth the most but I'm with you here - I've neither been irritated nor bored when hearing it and I've played it quite a lot of times over the last 15 or so years years.


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## Triplets

elgars ghost said:


> I can see where you're coming from but I think the fact that both use snare drums prominently makes them sound more similar than they actually are. The section from DSCH's 7th reminds me more of Respighi's _I pini della Via Appia_ and even Holst's _Mars, the Bringer of War_ than Boléro as both are aggressively martial in nature whereas Boléro is smooth and slinky.


 The tune is originally from Lehar's The Merry Widow, and it isn't nearly as martial or aggressive there. DSCH uses it and changes it's nature by making it a march


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## elgar's ghost

'The tune is originally from Lehar's The Merry Widow...'

Thanks for the reminder - I'd forgotten all about that.


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## Manxfeeder

I've noticed that. Both are an unusual theme and variations in that the "theme" is color, and the orchestral color is what varies.


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## techniquest

If you want to be either thoroughly enthralled or bored rigid, then try "Exodus" by Polish composer Wojciech Kilar. This piece for large orchestra and chorus follows the same gradual-crescendo-based-on-repeat style of composition as both the Ravel Bolero and the section from Shostakovich's 7th symphony, but it's far longer than both. Enjoy


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## hpowders

I see absolutely no resemblance between the unrelenting, pounding, repeated march theme of Shostakovich's Seventh Symphony and Ravel's Bolero, except for the fact that the themes in both keep getting repeated.


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## Pugg

The whole question makes me smile


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## Fugue Meister

Well they are both ostinato, but apart from the constant repeating I don't see that they are similar in any way.


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## Kenneth

I'm uncertain on the similarities of both works, besides the already mentioned (the drumming, ostinato and crescendo), however, there are plenty of works that fit that description.

I'm not home right now and it's been a while since I heard any of these pieces. As soon as I have the chance to, I'll give an ear to refresh my memory.


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## Pat Fairlea

As others have said, plenty of examples of a repeated rhythmic motif. It is interesting, though, how effective it can be when the motif is suddenly dropped. The 'peak' of Rachmaninov's Isle of the Dead abruptly breaks away from the swaying 'rowing' motif, which quietly re-enters to spooky effect after the breakdown of the crescendo. OK, bad terminology but I'm not musically trained. Likewise, the closing bars of the Bydlo passage from Mussorgsky's Pictures gain a marked change of colour by simply losing the bass motif.


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## techniquest

To be fair to the OP, he's not really suggesting any musical similarity between the march in the 1st movement of Shostakovich's 7th and Ravel's Bolero; just merely pointing out that, on a surface level, when listening to the former, it reminded him _a bit_ of the latter.


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## KenOC

Bolero and the "march" portion of the first movement of Shostakovich's 7th are similar. Both consist of fairly simple themes, repeated over and over with ever more ornate instrumentation and increasing volume. When Ravel is done, he wraps things up nicely. Shostakovich keeps on going, to unfortunate effect. Still, the relevant passages are similar.


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## Tristan

elgars ghost said:


> Yes, the 'invasion' section tends to be the part which makes many naysayers of the 7th grind their teeth the most but I'm with you here - I've neither been irritated nor bored when hearing it and I've played it quite a lot of times over the last 15 or so years years.


I love the "invasion" theme. I love the way it builds and have nothing wrong with repetitive music, same reason I quite enjoy Bolero. Of course these pieces are not completely repetitive and develop and alter as they go along, but that same repetitive cadence is part of the appeal to me.


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## clavichorder

There is also something superficially Bolero about the 1st section of the 1st movement of Nielsen's 5th. But in Nielsen's 5, there is a very unique thing happening, and that is instrumental lines reacting to each other and growing out of each other, shaping the piece. This is organic in a way that a repeating theme just isn't, but there is still a lot of repetition and a certain orchestration/melodic style that reminds of of Bolero. 

Shostakovich 7 has that aspect in the repetition, but is much more military and forceful. It also has the surrounding sections that it begins from and then grows into.


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## R3PL4Y

Dmitri Shostakovich said:


> I suppose that critics with nothing better to do will damn me for copying Ravel's Bolero. Well, let them. That is how I hear war.


Straight from the man himself


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## Xenakiboy

It is something that has come to mind, there are similarities. Have these been played together at any point?


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## JaapV

DTut said:


> The relentless building theme in the 7th (Leningrad) Symphony reminds me _a bit_ of Ravel's Bolero.
> 
> There are some surface-level similarities in the style: repetition, the swelling of the theme and the crescendo, etc. The context of the these two pieces couldn't be more different but listening to the 1st mov't today the Bolero just popped in my head. Has anyone else noticed this?
> 
> Dave


Exactly what I thought this morning when I listened to Shostakovich's 7th. I wondered whether anyone else had noticed this... and this post wa the first I found.


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## Heck148

Look in the "percussion" folder - there is a thread about this....both works feature a long passage for snare drum, repeating the same pattern, initially very soft, then crescendoing to full volume at climax..


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## CnC Bartok

Triplets said:


> The tune is originally from Lehar's The Merry Widow, and it isn't nearly as martial or aggressive there. DSCH uses it and changes it's nature by making it a march


I thought the original tune was by Bartok :devil:

Being serious for a moment, though, there is a great deal of doubt as to whether Bartok was actually quoting the Leningrad in his Intermezzo interrotto.

And delighted to see the supreme Nielsen 5th being put into proper context. The similarities are indeed there, but they are indeed very superficial. In terms of quality, I find it hard to mention Nielsen 5 and Shostakovich 7 in the same breath.


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## Guest

In response to the OP, yes, it's pretty obvious, and more than just a bit. I prefer the 7th to Bolero, but enjoy them both.


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## Manxfeeder

MacLeod said:


> In response to the OP, yes, it's pretty obvious, and more than just a bit. I prefer the 7th to Bolero, but enjoy them both.


I agree. But Bolero has not one but two saxophones. Shosty left them out, for some reason. It ruins the piece for me.


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