# Most 'ugly' composer



## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Before you get set to bash atonal composers or get your panties in a knot because somebody might be bashing atonal composers, observe this rule: *you are only allowed to list composers that you like*. That is, composers who you like but whose music you wouldn't describe as "beautiful".

Mine would be Shostakovich.


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## Nix (Feb 20, 2010)

I suppose the question should also be who writes the best ugly music, because Shostakovich has certainly written some gorgeous pieces (Passacaglia of the Violin Concerto comes to mind). 

Even still this is a really tough question. But I'll nominate Webern, Liszt and R. Strauss.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I don't know any composers who I think whose music is "ugly," at least not after a while of getting to know their music. It's a matter of habituation, getting used to their music, seeing the glass as half full, not half empty, etc. Eg. recently I've really been connecting with the music of guys like Xenakis, John Cage & Lutoslawski, I can hear the differences between their various pieces I know, whereas before they kind of sounded all the same. I'm picking up more nuance in their music, but of course they have an overall style, and various devices they use throughout many of their works as "trademarks."



Couchie said:


> Before you get set to bash atonal composers or get your panties in a knot because somebody might be bashing atonal composers, observe this rule: *you are only allowed to list composers that you like*. That is, composers who you like but whose music you wouldn't describe as "beautiful"...


I commend you for making this rule, but knowing the way some members here operate, this thread will probably get little traffic (eg. they love having various composers as punching bags, and their target seems to change like the wind, at least judging from what was happening here 2 years since when I joined, who were the most popular composers to diss, etc.). In other words, people like to be negative more than positive, and these same people argue about things in terms of absolutes, what they often say doesn't come across as having much of commonsense to me, but that's probably another issue altogether...


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Alberto Ginastera fits the bill, but maybe only with this piece.

Then there is nothing quite like the beginning of George Crumb's Black Angels. (And, yes. I do like that in some way.) It doesn't remain at that level of ugliness for long though.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I never found *Ginastera's*_ Piano Concerto #1 _ugly, indeed that final movement is my favourite part of it. As I said above, it's largely a matter of habituation. Eg. when I first heard that Ginastera piece a few years back, I connected it as being similar to Bartok's piano concertos to some degree. But if one doesn't have that prior knowledge or familiarity - what they call in psychology a schema or schemata - then you are like lost on the river without a paddle. If you come to hear the Ginastera concerto after having only heard concertos up until say Beethoven or even Tchaikovsky, and none from say Bartok or Prokofiev, it may indeed sound "ugly" or harsh or whatever. But if you're used to some of those sounds, then it can kind of sound quite natural. Did to me, anyway. I only had a slight problem with Ginastera's much more looser structure, but I got used to that given time.

As for *Crumb*, I'm not highly familiar with his _Black Angels_ - sorry, I have no ability to hear music on the computer I'm on now - but a number of the other works by him that I've heard have strong elements of lyricism - eg. _The Voice of the Whale_. But I wouldn't completely negate what you're saying, his _Songs, Drones and Refrains of Death_ is indeed a very intense work. Basically, I think these just take a bit of time & effort to get used to, that's all there is to it, imo...


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## Artemis (Dec 8, 2007)

Here's my candidate:










Some say that his breath smells of magnesium, and that he's scared of bells

 Some say that he lives in a tree, and that his sweat can be used to clean precious metals...

All I know is that he is definitely not the "Stig"and his music sounds rather similar to the way he looks.

Although, in keeping with the spirit of this thread, I do like a lot of it and I wouldn't call it "ugly", more like "not always pretty".


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Couchie said:


> Before you get set to bash atonal composers or get your panties in a knot because somebody might be bashing atonal composers, observe this rule: *you are only allowed to list composers that you like*. That is, composers who you like but whose music you wouldn't describe as "beautiful".
> 
> Mine would be Shostakovich.


I'll read as "composers whose music I can enjoy, but not really that much". Shostakovich is a good example. Maybe Bartok as well to name two bigger names.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

The music of Galina Ustvolskaya comes to mind.


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## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

Artemis said:


> Here's my candidate:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That will be Mr Leoš Janáček, then. I agree that little of his music could be called 'beautiful', but I'd call it 'weird' rather than 'ugly'.

A composer, some of whose music DOES sound 'ugly' to me, is *Darius Milhaud*.


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## haydnfan (Apr 13, 2011)

As said Crumb's Black Angels, there is a specific movement in the Mahler 9th and in the Shostakovich 8th that I think were intentionally made to sound ugly or demented.

What is interesting is that in some of Bach's cantatas he specifically wrote the music to sound "ugly" in certain passages to match the text, but that is so subtle to our modern ears that the effect is pretty much lost to us today.


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## CaptainAzure (May 2, 2011)

Wagner.
The worship of him is mystifying


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

I don't understand the question - why would I call music I enjoy 'ugly'?


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## Klavierspieler (Jul 16, 2011)

Some of Beethoven's music is intended to be ugly.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

I'd agree that Shostakovich is awesomely ugly, but Prokofiev for me is even more so. There are some great modern composers that really impress me with their creative ugliness, Benjamin Britten and William Schuman are who I think of, and also Bartok and Hindemith.

Pacific 231 by Arthur Honneger is an intensely ugly piece but there is something attractive about it.

From other periods, I believe Bruckner has not yet been mentioned. He has an extremely raw beauty to him.

You'd be surprised, but there are a lot of fascinatingly quirky composers from the classical period, and my favorite of them is CPE Bach.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

I still don't get it - 'ugly' is just being used as a catch-all term here, where I think 'gritty', 'dark', or 'grotesque' would be better suited. If something is genuinely 'ugly', it is not something you would want to listen to.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Polednice said:


> I still don't get it - 'ugly' is just being used as a catch-all term here, where I think 'gritty', 'dark', or 'grotesque' would be better suited. If something is genuinely 'ugly', it is not something you would want to listen to.


If your own modified vocabulary is more intellectually true to you, then go for it Poli. I find it fun to modify people's original questions anyway. What's a grotesque or "hairy" piece you like? Gritty and dark and I see you'll be mentioning Brahms as usual.

Some other good adjectives/descriptors, "knobby" or "with humps and horns".


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

clavichorder said:


> If your own modified vocabulary is more intellectually true to you, then go for it Poli. I find it fun to modify people's original questions anyway. What's a grotesque or "hairy" piece you like? Gritty and dark and I see you'll be mentioning Brahms as usual.
> 
> Some other good adjectives/descriptors, "knobby" or "with humps and horns".


Whenever I think 'grotesque', I think Shostakovich Violin Concerto No. 1, Second Movement. Looooovely! 

I was just pushing for other words because 'ugly' is a bit vague - it allows anything, so there's really no unifying purpose to the thread!


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Polednice said:


> Whenever I think 'grotesque', I think Shostakovich Violin Concerto No. 1, Second Movement. Looooovely!
> 
> I was just pushing for other words because 'ugly' is a bit vague - it allows anything, so there's really no unifying purpose to the thread!


Well, Couchie did say that it couldn't be a bashing thread and the unifying purpose may perhaps be observed through his first example with shostakovich and the chain of composers that followed as being similar. But I admit that ugly is vague.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

You are free to interpret the question at will.

In my opinion, "beautiful" music:






"Ugly" music:






I intensely like the above "ugly" music.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

With the timbre of this clavichord and the quirkness of this piece, I would qualify this piece below as belonging in this thread. Even his father JS can be "ugly" at times.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Couchie said:


> "Ugly" music:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Funnily enough, I'd call that music 'monstrous', but I wouldn't call it 'ugly'. Ugliness is something that makes you wince; look away; and not want to turn back. I'd listen to that a hundred times and never cringe.

Anyway, I'll stop being pedantic and trying to impose order where it isn't wanted!


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

I think a lot of people would rank "monstrous" as a more offputting quality than ugliness. English is weird, so threads like this start at the vague and work their way into specifics.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Polednice said:


> Funnily enough, I'd call that music 'monstrous', but I wouldn't call it 'ugly'. Ugliness is something that makes you wince; look away; and not want to turn back. I'd listen to that a hundred times and never cringe.
> 
> Anyway, I'll stop being pedantic and trying to impose order where it isn't wanted!


Beethoven disagrees:


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Polednice and Beethoven wouldn't get along I suppose....


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

violadude said:


> Polednice and Beethoven wouldn't get along I suppose....


I smell a sitcom.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

regressivetransphobe said:


> I smell a sitcom.


Hmm...gay and sassy mixed with bi-polar and terrifying...I like it!


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## Ravellian (Aug 17, 2009)

Debussy


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## ceadge (Aug 6, 2011)

There's part of The Rite of Spring which is almost violent, but I find it absolutely thrilling to hear.


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## TresPicos (Mar 21, 2009)

Some of my favorite "uglies": Bartok, Shostakovich, Penderecki, Pettersson


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

violadude said:


> Hmm...gay and sassy mixed with bi-polar and terrifying...I like it!


Hahaha! I have never been called sassy in my life - what a strange impression I must give on the internet!  You're right though - no good would come from having two insane people in the same room.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Prokofiev can be one of the ugliest composers you can find. He can be worse than Stravinsky, depending on the period. Prokofiev's Enfante Terrible period produced some of the most bizarre, terrifying and crazy things you'll find.

I think this work here takes the prize, as in, I like it as well as hate it:





As for this work, it comes in close second, but I just don't like it, it's too weird for me.


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## rrudolph (Sep 15, 2011)

Xenakis, particularly Dammerschein. Hideously beautiful (or beautifully hideous, if you prefer).

My first post here; hope it's OK. Hi everybody!


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## Klavierspieler (Jul 16, 2011)

rrudolph said:


> Xenakis, particularly Dammerschein. Hideously beautiful (or beautifully hideous, if you prefer).
> 
> My first post here; hope it's OK. Hi everybody!


Perfectly all right. Welcome to the forum!


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

rrudolph said:


> Xenakis, particularly Dammerschein. Hideously beautiful (or beautifully hideous, if you prefer).
> 
> My first post here; hope it's OK. Hi everybody!


I already like you more than some posters.


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2011)

Xenakis. It's so ugly that it's beautiful.


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