# Bruckner's scherzos



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Do any of you have problems with Bruckner's scherzos or is it just me? I find them structurally necessary but they don't "speak to me" as his other movements do. They seem dry and ungainly, theoretical rather than poetic. Some performers get closer than others to playing them in a "meaningful" and communicative way but mostly I just want the movements to end so that we can get back to some real music!


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

In general I would agree with you: they tend to be the weaker movements of his symphonies. I do like the scherzos of the 4th and 9th though!


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

I agree with both of you..

exactly as Enthusiast says they ¨don´t speak much to me" even though while considering them structurally necessary for his symphonic cycles....true...and then thinking about Bruckner ...hm....he wasn´t a "scherzo" person. You understand what I want to say , all Bruckner fans will understand  I don't want to say that he couldn't produce real scherzos for which other composers are known and appreciated, but the very essence of Bruckner style is non-scherzo. It's not that he wasn't a fun person or that his music is super serene - which it is - but scherzo is of this world and Bruckner's music is never of this world, it always transcends into other realms, it is from other realms....I don't want to sound too mystical, but such is Bruckner's music, therefore we leave scherzos without judging them and let them play their structural part of his symphonies that shows us : here - in scherzos- he tried to speak a language of people, but that's not really his language, language he masters, let him speak a language that he was more at ease and that is not of human beings...


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Art Rock said:


> In general I would agree with you: they tend to be the weaker movements of his symphonies. I do like the scherzos of the 4th and 9th though!


I consider the scherzo of his Eighth the greatest in the Bruckner symphonies, although I enjoy those of the Fourth, Ninth, and Die Nullte immensely.

That said, they're not as moving as the other movements, most particularly the adagios. But I do like the slow middle sections of them, which in some ways measure up to those glorious adagios.


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

Orfeo said:


> I consider the scherzo of his Eighth the greatest in the Bruckner symphonies


Yeah, because it's "The Ride of the Valkyries."


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

His scherzos are some of his best music! How can you not like the "Elephants Dancing" in #9?


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2016)

Enthusiast said:


> Do any of you have problems with Bruckner's scherzos or is it just me? I find them structurally necessary but they don't "speak to me" as his other movements do. They seem dry and ungainly, theoretical rather than poetic. Some performers get closer than others to playing them in a "meaningful" and communicative way but mostly I just want the movements to end so that we can get back to some real music!


I have no problem with Bruckner's scherzos - they are meant to be a lighter, structurally less "imposing" movement in the symphony. Remember too that the word "scherzo" means "joke" in Italian; so they're not meant to be "poetic".


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

Triplets said:


> His scherzos are some of his best music! How can you not like the "Elephants Dancing" in #9?


but it's not about liking or disliking. When we speak that it doesn't speak much to us, we don't mean that we don't like it as a piece of music. We mean that music speaks, at least some music does speak and Bruckner's music speaks a great deal...perhaps still there will be time when we get what it is about....


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

I'm in general not a scherzo fan. Give me an adagio or a largo any day 
But actually in the first symphony, his scherzo is my favorite movement and the only one that really returns as memorable to me.


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## BoggyB (May 6, 2016)

TalkingHead said:


> I have no problem with Bruckner's scherzos - they are meant to be a lighter, structurally less "imposing" movement in the symphony. Remember too that the word "scherzo" means "joke" in Italian; so they're not meant to be "poetic".


+1.

I would say that of all the movement-types of Bruckner's symphonies, the scherzos are the most consistent (most consistently good, that is). Does anyone else find the 9th's reminiscent of the Hitchcock movie Psycho?


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

BoggyB said:


> +1.
> 
> I would say that of all the movement-types of Bruckner's symphonies, the scherzos are the most consistent (most consistently good, that is). Does anyone else find the 9th's reminiscent of the Hitchcock movie Psycho?


yes, me, me. wow! you hear the same :angel: sure! I was like "aha" it is Psycho!


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

This is all odd to me. I enjoy the scherzos the most in Bruckner's music. I must not be a Bruckner fan, though I enjoy all his symphonies.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

His scherzos speak to me just as much as the rest of his symphonies. And some of them are among my favorite Bruckner movements: 4th, 7th and 9th


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Depending on the conductor's interpretation, the scherzos can sometimes seem like being jerked out of a contemplative mood ... the 7th being one ... but it needn't be that way as I was reminded earlier this week when listening to a recording of a concert by Carlo Maria Giulini.


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## BoggyB (May 6, 2016)

helenora said:


> yes, me, me. wow! you hear the same :angel: sure! I was like "aha" it is Psycho!


Hehe. I daresay there are others who think the same. These film score composers must have all kinds of classical influences.


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

BoggyB said:


> Hehe. I daresay there are others who think the same. These film score composers must have all kinds of classical influences.


sure there are others


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

I love them, they tend to give me the shivers. They are some of his scariest moments. I find the idea of repetition itself unsettling, and Bruckner's repeats are always unnerving. I'm feeling _limitations, compulsions, _returning to a previous state and doing the _same exact thing_ as you did the previous time, since either you have some neurotic compulsion or perhaps you just are so damn determined, obsessed by some idea. Scherzo is rhythm, and rhythm is the beat of life, the pulse of the universe, but with Bruckner, the pulse of the universe is so terrible, because you may yourself be nothing except the pulse of the universe, e.g. your ego is an illusion. It's the hammer of God, the backstage of the World nailing together the backdrops of the play of your life.


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## Nevum (Nov 28, 2013)

Do not necessarily agree. The scherzo of his 8th symphony is one of the best pieces of classical music ever written! (in my opinion of course).


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Hi TalkingHead: I do generally enjoy scherzos and I wouldn't want Bruckner's scherzos sounding like his other movements. But I just don't warm to the scherzos that Bruckner wrote. They seem ungainly and dry to my ears.

More generally, I'm glad to see that some enjoy Bruckner's scherzos. Is anyone up to trying to open my ears to them? What do they do for you and how do they do it?


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

Enthusiast said:


> Hi TalkingHead: I do generally enjoy scherzos and I wouldn't want Bruckner's scherzos sounding like his other movements. But I just don't warm to the scherzos that Bruckner wrote. They seem ungainly and dry to my ears.
> 
> More generally, I'm glad to see that some enjoy Bruckner's scherzos. Is anyone up to trying to open my ears to them? What do they do for you and how do they do it?


But time will come and you understand them....no need to force yourself, and no need to seek for others advice as how they understand them, enjoy them, because it's their perception. in music and art it's all about perception, there is no rule as to how to understand and what to feel and how to enjoy


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

helenora said:


> But time will come and you understand them....no need to force yourself, and no need to seek for others advice as how they understand them, enjoy them, because it's their perception. in music and art it's all about perception, there is no rule as to how to understand and what to feel and how to enjoy


Well, I wish I was so hopeful! It has had more than 30 years to happen. I will concede that the scherzo of the 8th is enjoyable and does communicate something meaningful to me.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I've said this here before, but to me they are not unlike watching Sisyphus. Up and down and up and down and . . .


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## kyf (Feb 1, 2017)

BoggyB said:


> I would say that of all the movement-types of Bruckner's symphonies, the scherzos are the most consistent (most consistently good, that is). Does anyone else find the 9th's reminiscent of the Hitchcock movie Psycho?





BoggyB said:


> Hehe. I daresay there are others who think the same. These film score composers must have all kinds of classical influences.





helenora said:


> yes, me, me. wow! you hear the same :angel: sure! I was like "aha" it is Psycho!





helenora said:


> sure there are others





MarkW said:


> I've said this here before, but to me they are not unlike watching Sisyphus. Up and down and up and down and . . .


You guys have good ears. It is pretty obvious that it's Psycho music isn't it?

Check this article out: http://www.mcgill.ca/reporter/39/09/pearlman/

A passage from the article: After McLean has pointed out that one of Bruckner's biggest fans was fellow Austrian Adolf Hitler, Pearlman elaborates. "We owe the creation of heavy metal to the Third Reich," he says, "because a lot of the Jewish composers who left Europe went on to compose for Hollywood horror films. They exposed kids to a Brucknerian vocabulary and it subsequently morphed into heavy metal."

Pearlman was a music producer who had inside knowledge of the music business.


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## pokeefe0001 (Jan 15, 2017)

For me, the scherzos of the 8th and 9th symphonies are in a different universe than the rest of his scherzos. (Well, I think the whole 8th and 9th symphonies are in a a different universe.) I agree with those that think those two scherzi are masterpieces. 

But when I am in that other universe - the one that contains his other symphonies - I think a few scherzi stand out. Actually, I think all of the early ones (1-3) are pretty good. In 2 & 3 I think he did a better than usual job (for Bruckner) of making the scherzo and trio mesh.

Of course, all of this depends on which version of each symphony is used and what the conductor feels.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Enthusiast said:


> Do any of you have problems with Bruckner's scherzos or is it just me? I find them structurally necessary but they don't "speak to me" as his other movements do.


It might be just you!!  
I love Bruckner Scherzos, as a rule...some of my favorite Bruckner mvts - #7, 9, 6, 8, 4, 3...wonderful stuff...


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Triplets said:


> His scherzos are some of his best music!


yup....agreed...


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

BoggyB said:


> +1.
> I would say that of all the movement-types of Bruckner's symphonies, the scherzos are the most consistent (most consistently good, that is). Does anyone else find the 9th's reminiscent of the Hitchcock movie Psycho?


#9/III doesn't remind so much of "Psycho" - but there is certainly a diabolical quality about it - the opening phrases are really quite "spooky", even a bit mysterious...then it erupts in the fusillade of pounding, rhythmic brasses, full orchestra...


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

kyf said:


> You guys have good ears. It is pretty obvious that it's Psycho music isn't it?
> 
> Check this article out: http://www.mcgill.ca/reporter/39/09/pearlman/
> 
> ...


that's really curious. but I think for a heavy metal music it's too much credit to have Bruckner as forefather 

or a heavy metal just became a prodigal son ???


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## jailhouse (Sep 2, 2016)

Theyre very cool. A little repetitive, but cool. Structurally weird though, with all the long pausing and repetition


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

jailhouse said:


> Theyre very cool. A little repetitive, but cool. Structurally weird though, with all the long pausing and repetition


That's what's makes them unique .


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