# Andre Rieu



## presto

I work with this nice guy and we often talk about music, he loves smooth jazz as I do and we swap jazz CD’s, he’s not really into classical music but knows I am.
Anyway he came into work recently all excited and asked me if I had heard of Andre Rieu, I told him I hadn’t, he looked really surprised! And said “you’ve never heard of him? he’s fantastic, if you like classical music your love him, I’ve just discovered him myself.”
He came in the next day with 3 DVD’s of some Andre Rieu concerts, I must admit from the covers It didn’t look like it was going to be my kind of thing but I thanked him all the same. 
When I got home I proceeded to watch one.......it was horrible!
I can see why I hadn’t heard of him before, he’s obviously a very fine musician but that concert on the DVD’s was so overblown and over the top, it was a million miles away from how I like to enjoy my classical music.
Any thoughts?


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## Tapkaara

presto said:


> I work with this nice guy and we often talk about music, he loves smooth jazz as I do and we swap jazz CD's, he's not really into classical music but knows I am.
> Anyway he came into work recently all excited and asked me if I had heard of Andre Rieu, I told him I hadn't, he looked really surprised! And said "you've never heard of him? he's fantastic, if you like classical music your love him, I've just discovered him myself."
> He came in the next day with 3 DVD's of some Andre Rieu concerts, I must admit from the covers It didn't look like it was going to be my kind of thing but I thanked him all the same.
> When I got home I proceeded to watch one.......it was horrible!
> I can see why I hadn't heard of him before, he's obviously a very fine musician but that concert on the DVD's was so overblown, it was a million miles away from how I like to enjoy my classical music.
> Any thoughts?


I am not a fan though I know many enjoy him. He is definitely "cross-over classical," much like Andre Bocelli.

And I know what you mean when you say it's not how you enjoy your classical music. We, the classical intelligentsia, don't need the big, and somewhat tacky production and staging to get our fill. The general public does. We don't need the silly distraction. We can take it straight up without sugar coating it!

And I do not buy the argument that he could be the gateway through which people can discover "real" classical music. I highly doubt that grandma and grandpa watching one of his shows on public television will over go to the store and buy a Shotakovich symphony. At most, they'd probably just buy a DVD or CD or the performance they just saw and leave it at that. So I do not feel that Rieu should be cut slack for doing the service of introducing classical to a wider audience, because he really is not. To say that REALLY is naive and wishful thinking.

But hey, there is a market for it and it seems to be a successful product. I am in no position to talk down to someone who really likes this sort of thing. I don't need to prop myself up for liking "the real thing." I am not a fan, and it is indeed silly, tacky and highly commercialized. But more power to Rieu's fans...we all get our enjoyment in different ways.


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## Amfibius

One of my patients wanted a break from her scheduled chemotherapy session so that she could attend an Andre Rieu concert. I am normally very accomodating to requests like these, but when she said she wanted to go to the concert I chatted to her about music and suggested she attend a performance at the conservatory instead. I asked how she was planning to get there, given that it was held in a stadium (!!) and she was wheelchair bound and not very well. She said that she'll manage. 

Anyway, during the concert the guy said that he had heard that there was a young woman in the crowd who was dying of cancer and was going to play a little something for her. I don't know what he played, but it made her ecstatic. 

I don't rate him as a musician, but as a man he is full of heart. Kudos to him.


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## kv466

The Clayderman of the violin.


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## Tapkaara

Amfibius said:


> One of my patients wanted a break from her scheduled chemotherapy session so that she could attend an Andre Rieu concert. I am normally very accomodating to requests like these, but when she said she wanted to go to the concert I chatted to her about music and suggested she attend a performance at the conservatory instead. I asked how she was planning to get there, given that it was held in a stadium (!!) and she was wheelchair bound and not very well. She said that she'll manage.
> 
> Anyway, during the concert the guy said that he had heard that there was a young woman in the crowd who was dying of cancer and was going to play a little something for her. I don't know what he played, but it made her ecstatic.
> 
> I don't rate him as a musician, but as a man he is full of heart. Kudos to him.


That is actually very touching. He has certainly earned a little more of my respect.


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## jurianbai

well, let's just said Andre Rieu is in "commercial stadium classical" genre. I myself only watch him on youtube. Surely people can different the show between this and Hillary Hahn.


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## jurianbai

---- double post ---- (if possible just help deleted...)


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## HarpsichordConcerto

AR seems to me as a marketing product catering for a different group of music listeners. Not my cup of tea. At least (if I'm not wrong) he uses a period instrument (Stradivarius?), though that too, is probably a marketing trick all part of his "thing". But it's good to have musicians like him to "popularise" classical music. For that, I can see value in what he does. But I don't have any recordings of his performances. I leave that to the masses to which he is targeting.


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## Sid James

I've read his biography recently and have got a number of his cd's. I like most of what he does, some of his arrangements are top-notch. He has been admired by the likes of Riccardo Chailly and yes, he has a very big heart (but doesn't brag about it like some), he has done a lot of work for charity over the decades. I can listen to the most "serious" and "cutting edge" music, but I don't put it above what Rieu does. That would be snobbism and elitist (although I don't like to use those words, but that's what I feel). His_ You'll Never Walk Alone _album is pretty good, imo, the best I've heard from him (although not all of his things are of that level, but I have same mixed feelings about many "great" musicians, eg. von Karajan, Argerich or Maisky, for example). He has been compared to Johann Strauss Jnr., the "waltz king" of his time, I wouldn't disagree with that. But Mr. Rieu is a very good to excellent arranger, when he does things in an interesting way, I enjoy his music making very much.

I can listen to & enjoy the music of the powdered wigs or the avant-garde of today, stage musicals, operetta, Mantovani, to jazz, non-classical and Rieu is there as well (although I don't listen to him as much as chamber music, which is my favourite). In his book, he speaks of playing Bartok's string quartets at university, he liked it as a challenge and learning from this type of modern music. If any of you can do that to a good or high level as he can, then go ahead, throw the first stone (but he's decided to not go down that route, he played as a professional classical musician in various Netherlands orchestras for like 20 years before moving fully into the light music realm). His favourite composers are the composers of waltz music, light music and Italian opera.


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## Vaneyes

Smart business man, impressive stage presence, makes people happy. Continued good luck to him. There are far worse people in the entertainment world.


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## Sid James

Vaneyes said:


> Smart business man, impressive stage presence, makes people happy...


People said the same of von Karajan, even some of his esteemed colleagues. Eg. that he was all image and PR, or mainly. Sviatoslav Richter, after recording Beethoven's_ Triple Concerto _under von Karajan, wanted to do some extra takes at the end of the recording session, the pianist wanted to iron out some mistakes. But Richter said von Karajan was not interested in that, he was going off for the photoshoot and to chat up the journalists waiting outside or something like that.

Some recordings that von Karajan made (not necessarily that one, I haven't heard it, I think) simply should not have been made. I have mixed feelings about his work. Some of it I connected with and liked, others I didn't, and some things sounded outright un-idiomatic to use big words (eg. downright "wrong."). His much lauded interpretation of Schoenberg's _Transfigured Night _turned me right off that composer for more than a decade.

Apart from the often unclear distinction between "artist" and "entertainer" which I won't go into, what you said in the first sentence can apply to von Karajan easily, and some people I know would be far more scathing of him than I. He isn't the only one in the "serious" classical world I can give as an example of this, but he's the best known one I can think of. I have no sacred cows, so my opinion is straight, I am talking my mind, it is based on commonsense and experience...


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## Sid James

Another thing is people's double standards. Two years ago when I joined this forum, people were throwing mudballs at composers who make a buck and are very popular, eg. Philip Glass and Arvo Part. The fact is, classical music is a business like any other form of music. Granted, it is also an art and requires a lot of knowledge, training, etc. (which Rieu has like any other classical musician, see my posts above, he's university trained & played as a professional classical musician for 20 years), but it is not a problem if classical composers or musicians are commercially successful. Not to me it isn't, I just aim to enjoy whatever I enjoy, that's it.

As for "crossover," heaps of classical musicians and composers have done this and are doing this. The distinctions are blurring all the time. Eg. Steve Reich now is incorporating rhythms from things like hip-hop into his percussion music. It's just one example & it's been going on for yonks. Listen to Haydn's _Gypsy Rondo _piano trio and hear how he put popular gypsy music of the time into that. It's one of his best-known trios, or the best known one, full stop. This kind of crossover thing can be good and not bad in the right hands, and imo Andre Rieu has the "right" and very capable hands. The only criticism I have is that he uses overly large venues, and the acoustic is not good for classical in those, but he makes up for it with amplification. I have his concert done in Melbourne Australia in 2008 and the sound is good, if a bit artificial (but you get that in some "serious" classical recordings, no?).

So there it is. I can talk heaps about this, and refute all the negativity about Mr. Rieu. I resigned from another forum 6 months ago due to a fracas generated by the simple fact I put a cd cover of Rieu's on "current listening" and I was virtually attacked. At least this forum, TC, is not like that. The other forum had about 75 per cent pure "snob" and "elitist" membership. People who owned thousands of cd's but lacked the most important thing - with music or anything - COMMONSENSE. So there you go. At least around here on TC most people have that, or seem to have that, otherwise for me any of these online forums become a sheer waste of time and energy...


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Sid James said:


> People who owned thousands of cd's but lacked the most important thing - with music or anything - COMMONSENSE. ...


A friendly advice to you, Sid James. You keep telling fellow members here your opinion is based on commonsense (you mentioned it twice already in separate posts in this thread alone). A virtue in life is to shy away from self-praise and let others decide if in fact, your opinions are indeed based on commonsense.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Vaneyes said:


> Smart business man, impressive stage presence, makes people happy. Continued good luck to him. There are far worse people in the entertainment world.


I think so, too. A great business man more than anything else.


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## hespdelk

I'm not a fan as I also don't enjoy concerts as spectacle, but as something of a specialist in the old waltz repertoire I don't see what he does as a bad thing.

Certainly the repertoire he plays with his orchestra is for the most part of a much higher level than most of the drivel the psuedo "pop opera" singers and groups do...


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## presto

Vaneyes said:


> Smart business man, impressive stage presence, makes people happy. Continued good luck to him. There are far worse people in the entertainment world.


Yes I agree, he certainly has found or made an audience. 
It just amused me that the guy at work assumed as I liked classical music I would love Andre Rieu.
I've since returned the DVD's and tactfully told him it wasn't my thing and explained when I go to a concert I like to just hear the music without any other distractions. 
AR plays the lighter side of classical music and has turned it into a show, and a very big show with venues so big amplification has to be used as well huge screens.
I'm pleased that he obviously gives a great deal of pleasure to many thousands of people but the intimacy of hearing the pure acoustic sound of an orchestra in a proper concert hall with no distraction is an entirely different thing to the Andre Rieu experience.


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## Lisztian

Crossover classical. I'm not particularly fond of his performances and CD's, but have nothing against them. He brings joy to millions, and that's all that matters.


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## bassClef

I subscribe to Sky TV (even though I'm in Prague, it's possible) and get Sky Arts 1 & 2. About 10%-20% of their air time is devoted to classical music. Great you may think, and sometimes it is. But 75% of that timeslice seems to be devoted to Andre Rieu concerts - what a waste. I can't even watch for 5 minutes without feeling slightly sick.


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## Sid James

I must emphasise that I don't watch his DVD's, I don't care for the visuals, I just listen to his cd's. I wouldn't go to a live concert of his, I agree with others, the huge venues detract from things like intimacy.

As for how he comes off to some people as like smarmy or smug or whatever, or hamming it up, it's a common criticism I can understand. But live in concert, I've seen a number of musicians here who have mannerisms that people harsher than me say they look like a ****** or whatever. I won't name names, but it's some of our finest musicians, they have these gestures that are a bit tiring after a while (eg. it's a bit of an act, like Lang Lang but maybe not so over the top, or the cellist Ofra Harnoy of the 1980's for those who remember her, a good musician, but she hammed it up and "acted" every note, it was ridiculous, almost a pain to watch her). People who criticise Andre Rieu for "acting" or whatever should maybe go see some of their favourite classical "serious" musicians live, or get a dvd of them, the way they act on the podium or at the piano whatever can be just as annoying or far worse in that regard than Mr. Rieu...


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## Machiavel

The guy is still 10 times better than any violinist here! Some here really to stop bashing people. You may like it or not but too say he is more of a businessman is a sin. Have one of you ever heard him play alone. Like I said 10 times better than anybody here!


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## moody

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> AR seems to me as a marketing product catering for a different group of music listeners. Not my cup of tea. At least (if I'm not wrong) he uses a period instrument (Stradivarius?), though that too, is probably a marketing trick all part of his "thing". But it's good to have musicians like him to "popularise" classical music. For that, I can see value in what he does. But I don't have any recordings of his performances. I leave that to the masses to which he is targeting.


The stuff he does is most certainly not "classical" music. I switched on my car radio the other day and heard a Strauss waltz playing and I thought it was some amateur band, it was awful. It was him of course.


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## Sid James

moody said:


> The stuff he does is most certainly not "classical" music. I switched on my car radio the other day and heard a Strauss waltz playing and I thought it was some amateur band, it was awful. It was him of course.


Sometimes I think the same (or at least similar) of von Karajan's performances. But good for him if say he does Mozart's _Great Mass in C _as if it was Verdi's _Requiem _on steroids. Let's be honest, in what he does, Rieu has much more integrity than the likes of von Karajan had a lot of the time (see my anecdote about him in an earlier post on this thread, what Richter remarked about him after they recorded Beethovne's _Triple Concerto_). Of course, people who deny others enjoyment of things, whether it be Xenakis, John Cage or Rieu or Mantovani or whatever, they claim we are elitists, snobs or hoi polloi, uneducated masses, great unwashed, etc. They use labels as is appropriate for their agendas. These people, in my opinion, their opinions are rubbish, these people are cactus...


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## HarpsichordConcerto

moody said:


> The stuff he does is most certainly not "classical" music. I switched on my car radio the other day and heard a Strauss waltz playing and I thought it was some amateur band, it was awful. It was him of course.


Yeah, I agree. His performance that I have heard on radio did sound awful. TV commercials of the stuff to promote him, even worse.


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## Guest

I'm sorry, I've been in hysterics with laughter reading some of this stuff about Andre Rieu! He's a bog standard fiddle player who can AFFORD to own a Strad. Whether he does or not is immaterial, since one can never hear his playing about the sound-wall of noise which accompanies his 'shows'. Having said all of that, and having had a huge laugh, I take the points about him being a decent human being and a better violinist than any of us on this forum. I've never even picked one up. But I think it's a dodgy argument to make about somebody's cultural worth - asking us if we play any better!! I don't admire Lang Lang's approach to classical music but, jeez, he plays better than me (8th grade) - so, on that basis, I should shell out $150 for a ticket!!! Nein dank!! Many people love Andre Rieu's 'music', that's for sure. Are we going to play the 'popular' card again? Something is good because lots of people like it? Let's see who else was 'popular' - Hitler, Mussolini....shall I go on?


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## Sid James

^^Your argument is full of holes and speaks to elitism and snobbism. That's all I'll say, I've made my points earlier. Herbert von Karajan joined the Nazi party TWICE - the Austrian version, then the German one when they invaded his native Austria - he was far closer to Hitler and Mussolini than Andre Rieu. Rieu's interpretations of light music have never failed to please and engage me, unlike some of von Karajan's work which is basically old hat, a number of his interpretations of c20th repertoire especially sounds outdated and overly romanticised, even guys of the older generation like Toscanini and Walter had a more modern approach. But forget it. I can't talk sense here. Some people are full of **** and have double standards. Good day to you all, I sign out of this thread, a guy who can equally enjoy Xenakis, Cage or Andre Rieu and many things in between. But von Karajan's "take" on Schoenberg's music made me think I hated the composer for 10 years, when it turned out when I heard BETTER recordings, I really hated the conductor doing Schoenberg, not Schoenberg. Go figure? Of course, von Karajan had his strong points, I like some of his work, but saying all of what Rieu does is of negligible quality is the same as tarring von Karajan with the similar brush, and you don't do that do you, all of you, you idolise this guy, what was REALLY a Nazi, but let's not go into that, he was more of an opportunist than anything, he'd join any party to further and maintain his career...His beautiful Berlin Philharmonic hall was funded by the Americans as a kind of sweetener to that city, the orchestra playing in it was promoted as the best in the world for various political reasons to do with the Cold War...that's it...just think people...Rant over and out...


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## HarpsichordConcerto

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> I'm sorry, I've been in hysterics with laughter reading some of this stuff about Andre Rieu! He's a bog standard fiddle player who can AFFORD to own a Strad. Whether he does or not is immaterial, since one can never hear his playing about the sound-wall of noise which accompanies his 'shows'. Having said all of that, and having had a huge laugh, I take the points about him being a decent human being and a better violinist than any of us on this forum. I've never even picked one up. But I think it's a dodgy argument to make about somebody's cultural worth - asking us if we play any better!! I don't admire Lang Lang's approach to classical music but, jeez, he plays better than me (8th grade) - so, on that basis, I should shell out $150 for a ticket!!! Nein dank!! Many people love Andre Rieu's 'music', that's for sure. Are we going to play the 'popular' card again? Something is good because lots of people like it? Let's see who else was 'popular' - Hitler, Mussolini....shall I go on?


Check out this album cover. :lol: In wonderland, alright ...


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Sid James said:


> Herbert von Karajan joined the Nazi party TWICE - the Austrian version, then the German one when they invaded his native Austria - he was far closer to Hitler and Mussolini than Andre Rieu.


 Karajan, Nazi, Hitler, Mussolini and Andre Rieu in ONE SENTENCE. Why not Jesus Christ, Obama, Lady Gaga, Brad Pitt as well? I mean, all these folks have so much in common, don't they? I think this thread has out lived its use.


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## Amfibius

This thread really makes me go 

I mean, we are talking about a musician - one whom everybody seems to agree has sold out to commercialism. And yet we can't stop fighting each other? 

Seriously, TC needs to take a good, hard, look at itself. Either that, or we need a few more moderators with an iron fist.


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## Sid James

^^ Or more likely, we need to have some people GROW A BRAIN and ADMIT THEIR OBVIOUS BIAS, HYPOCRISY & DOUBLE STANDARDS.

Yeah, the Berlin Phil had "class" but they were basically funded by Uncle Sam as a propaganda exercise after the war. Rieu, on the other hand, yes he is a businessman, but before going fully into light music he worked as a professional serious orchestral musician for 20 years, also as a chamber musician, etc. He didn't have Uncle Sam's money to prop him up, talent or no talent, he worked by putting his backside on the line financially. Just read his biography. Oh, you won't of course, because it's easier to prejudge, isn't it.

Anyway, let's pull down some of YOUR and not mine sacred cows. But it's easier to do crapshooting at easy targets. Pick on someone your own size, let's separate the men from the boys, to use another cliched term...


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Amfibius said:


> I mean, we are talking about a musician - one whom everybody seems to agree has sold out to commercialism.


Definitely. Look at that CD cover I posted above of him holding a violin, Alice in Wonderland, prince & princess riding a horse / fairy tale stuff. Who in the right mind would take this album seriously?


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## mamascarlatti

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Check out this album cover. :lol: In wonderland, alright ...


Aaarggh. He must be aiming his stuff at 4-year-old girls.


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## jhar26

Sid James said:


> ^^Your argument is full of holes and speaks to elitism and snobbism. That's all I'll say, I've made my points earlier. Herbert von Karajan joined the Nazi party TWICE - the Austrian version, then the German one when they invaded his native Austria - he was far closer to Hitler and Mussolini than Andre Rieu. Rieu's interpretations of light music have never failed to please and engage me, unlike some of von Karajan's work which is basically old hat, a number of his interpretations of c20th repertoire especially sounds outdated and overly romanticised, even guys of the older generation like Toscanini and Walter had a more modern approach. But forget it. I can't talk sense here. Some people are full of **** and have double standards. Good day to you all, I sign out of this thread, a guy who can equally enjoy Xenakis, Cage or Andre Rieu and many things in between. But von Karajan's "take" on Schoenberg's music made me think I hated the composer for 10 years, when it turned out when I heard BETTER recordings, I really hated the conductor doing Schoenberg, not Schoenberg. Go figure? Of course, von Karajan had his strong points, I like some of his work, but saying all of what Rieu does is of negligible quality is the same as tarring von Karajan with the similar brush, and you don't do that do you, all of you, you idolise this guy, what was REALLY a Nazi, but let's not go into that, he was more of an opportunist than anything, he'd join any party to further and maintain his career...His beautiful Berlin Philharmonic hall was funded by the Americans as a kind of sweetener to that city, the orchestra playing in it was promoted as the best in the world for various political reasons to do with the Cold War...that's it...just think people...Rant over and out...


Karajan got a lot of critical acclaim for his Schoenberg recording though (it's the one with "Verklarte Nacht" and "Variations for Orchestra" you're talking about, right?), and for a Schoenberg disc it sold extremely well. And yes, he joined the Nazi party, but not out of political conviction. He would have joined no matter what party, be-it from the extreme right, left or something inbetween to help his career. Kinda like Russian composers and performers who might have joined the communist party to help them sustain their careers despite despising Stalin and what he stood for. That doesn't make Karajan joining the Nazi party any less of a poor descision on his part, but the motivation behind doing it was similar.


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## Sid James

^^Yes, as I said, von Karajan was opportunist. So where people like R. Strauss. As human beings, these musicians good or bad, leave much to be desired. Maybe that's partially behind how I dislike their music, but at least I admit my bias. & I've listened to a fair amount of their music. I've got several Andre Rieu cd's, and I've read his biography. Same can't go for probably all of the critics here, they are talking hot air, they are spinning yarns, it's not based on actual experience, which isn't a new thing around here, isn't it?...


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## Guest

I have caught bits and pieces of Rieu on TV from time to time. I think he could use a haircut, but otherwise, I don't understand what the issue is with him. On the one hand, we talk about how lacking for culture we are anymore, and how so many people listen to such trash these days. Then you get someone who comes along and dares to *gasp* bring classical or near classical to the masses in a format they actually like. And nothing happens to the rest of the musical world. Perhaps, just perhaps, Rieu might serve as a gateway drug to entice people to explore classical music that they otherwise might not have. The man is an entertainer as much as he is a musician. Was Elvis any less the king for starring in some truly horrendous movies? 

I don't understand the need to bash things we don't like in terms of music. Sure, I will crack a 4'33" joke from time to time, as much as the next man - but what gives with the disdain for Rieu? He plays a hell of a lot better than I can, and I believe I would very likely enjoy myself were I to attend a concert of his. I've even found myself listening to Boccelli!


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## Sid James

^^I put a "like" on your post, I agree with the vibe of it, at least you are being balanced, unlike some of the jokers around here.

This is very similar to another forum I left 6 months ago, exactly on this issue, they were basically castigating me for listening to Rieu, and liking him. But as you probably know, he's not the only thing I listen to, I listen to him for relaxation more than anything else, but same could be said for J. Strauss jnr., or Franz Lehar's operettas, etc. Or even Rossini or Donizetti's comic operas, but yes, these are different, but the way I approach them, they serve a similar need - to give me a good time, the feelgood factor. I like serious things, from the old to new, but I can't always have that. I sometimes need a break (yes, I like Boccelli as well, no shame in that).

Basically Dr. Mike, I have not been much involved in those threads, but people show you up as a hard core conservative on the political front. I'm not that much interested in that to be honest, hence my lack of participation on those threads. But on the musical front, with what you said above, you definitely show a good deal of commonsense, a thing that I admire the most. So I kind of take my hat off to you here, you are real not plastic regurgitated cr*p I've heard a million times...


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## HarpsichordConcerto

DrMike said:


> He plays [the violin] a hell of a lot better than I can ...


And me! And many others here. Though I don't think I would pay a penny to attend his shows nor buy his CDs.


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## Guest

Sid James said:


> ^^I put a "like" on your post, I agree with the vibe of it, at least you are being balanced, unlike some of the jokers around here.
> 
> This is very similar to another forum I left 6 months ago, exactly on this issue, they were basically castigating me for listening to Rieu, and liking him. But as you probably know, he's not the only thing I listen to, I listen to him for relaxation more than anything else, but same could be said for J. Strauss jnr., or Franz Lehar's operettas, etc. Or even Rossini or Donizetti's comic operas, but yes, these are different, but the way I approach them, they serve a similar need - to give me a good time, the feelgood factor. I like serious things, from the old to new, but I can't always have that. I sometimes need a break (yes, I like Boccelli as well, no shame in that).
> 
> Basically Dr. Mike, I have not been much involved in those threads, but people show you up as a hard core conservative on the political front. I'm not that much interested in that to be honest, hence my lack of participation on those threads. But on the musical front, with what you said above, you definitely show a good deal of commonsense, a thing that I admire the most. So I kind of take my hat off to you here, you are real not plastic regurgitated cr*p I've heard a million times...


I appreciate your comments.

I am not a musicologist. I don't listen to and enjoy things because I think I should. I don't know musical theory - I just know what sounds good to me. Along the way, I have learned some new things, but otherwise it is primarily what appeals to my ear. In general, that consists of mainly renaissance through post-romantic, but I have been surprised by some more modern things that I like. Messiaen is the exception to my rules. I love everything of his that I have heard.

Rieu is talented. And I appreciate that what he does requires a lot more talent than the average drivel that pollutes the soundwaves. And to be quite honest - I would rather listen to Rieu than listen to some baroque operas where you have a man singing higher than should be allowed! And I love baroque.

Oh - and I am a lot different when I am discussing music than when I am discussing politics. Polednice and I disagree quite vehemently on political issues, but we have quite a bit in common in terms of musical interests. I love Brahms - his 1st Piano Trio is one of my all-time favorites. He also turned me on to a few other excellent Brahms recordings.


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## Guest

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> And me! And many others here. Though I don't think I would pay a penny to attend his shows nor buy his CDs.


But quite a few people would (and do!) - and like I said, he can be a bit of a gateway drug for those who might otherwise not listen to classical. I think there is a definite need for such. But even so, he may not be the next Heifetz or Milstein, but why does everybody have to be?


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## Rapide

My father likes Mr Rieu but I don't listen to his performances much. He is "pop-classcial" I think which is not too bad.


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## elgar's ghost

It's just ENTERTAINMENT - it's not as though Rieu made a pact with the devil at a crossroads at midnight or went over to the Dark Side Vader-style. I can't ever recall Victor Borge or even Liberace getting the same amount of stick. I get more annoyed when people from the rock fraternity half-turn their back on their previous legacy and start selling out in order to shift more units (Status Quo and Rod Stewart immediately spring to mind here) but at least Rieu has never, as far as I can tell, pretended to be anything other than what he is.


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## Sid James

^^That's right, it's just light music. Liberace is probably similar of a time in the past, so too is Mantovani. Victor Borge was more of a humorist than light musician, as far as i can tell, but he was great, i've got an LP of his, he takes the p*ss out of Mozart's operas, all the cliches in those, but in a loving way, but I'd guess some people here, taking that WAY TOO SERIOUSLY, would balk big time, and call what he's doing rubbish or something. They just don't understand, despite their supposed sophistication, they just don't get it.

But that said, Rieu's arrangements of various types of music - eg. light classics, hit songs from stage musicals, evergreens, opera arias, etc. - to my ears, a listener of classical most of my life, his work in that area is quite good. You can hear he's no hack, he's a trained and experienced classical musician of high standard. He knows what he's doing in his limited field, basically. Nothing more, nothing less...


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## HarpsichordConcerto

elgars ghost said:


> It's just ENTERTAINMENT - it's not as though Rieu made a pact with the devil at a crossroads at midnight or went over to the Dark Side Vader-style. I can't ever recall Victor Borge or even Liberace getting the same amount of stick. I get more annoyed when people from the rock fraternity half-turn their back on their previous legacy and start selling out in order to shift more units (Status Quo and Rod Stewart immediately spring to mind here) but at least Rieu has never, as far as I can tell, pretended to be anything other than what he is.


Victor Borge was pure entertainment alright, and he was very good at it. But he didn't sell himself with a strange long hair-do, angelic pose holding a violin in a maestro suit on every CD cover, Alice in Wonderland fluffy stuff.

This sell-out cover even has the tile "A Celebration of Music".










Or this cover, which seeing for the first time, I would think he was a classical music concerto soloist.


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## jhar26

DrMike said:


> But quite a few people would (and do!) - and like I said, he can be a bit of a gateway drug for those who might otherwise not listen to classical. I think there is a definite need for such. But even so, he may not be the next Heifetz or Milstein, but why does everybody have to be?


He probably is good at what he does, but I don't think that artists like him or Bocelli, Vanessa-Mae, Jenkins and others make classical music more popular. The (often modest) record collection of most Rieu listeners probably consists of things like Sinatra's greatest hits, a recording of Vivaldi's Four Seasons, the soundtrack of the Mama Mia musical, a few James Last recordings, the three tenors concert, a Elvis greatest hits album, a bit of Tom Jones or Julio Iglesias, Celine Dion, Barbra Streisand and a double CD with classical music's 'greatest hits' (three minute maximum fragments like the first couple of minutes from the Tchaikovsky piano concerto, the start of Beethoven's 5th symphony, etc). Some of the recordings they have may be very good in their field, but I don't think it's the kind of public that after hearing Rieu is going to be motivated to explore the works of Mahler or Bach.

Having said that - in principle I don't have a problem with people like Rieu. Lots of people enjoy his stuff and there's no reason to object to music that makes them happy. The problem is that the music of Rieu, Bocelli, Jenkins and others is sold to the public as (I don't like the word, but you know what I mean) 'legitimate' classical music..... "Rieu is the best-selling classical musician in the world"...... No, he's not. He's the best-selling CROSSOVER musician in the world. Looks like a small thing, but it's likely to take away whatever incentive their audience potentially might feel to check out 'real' (as in 'art music') classical music for the simple reason that those people have the idea that the're already listening to it anytime they put on Rieu or Vanessa-Mae. In fact - the pr is telling them that these artists are the best that classical music has to offer.


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## Guest

Harpsichord concerto, you are THE MAN (or woman!). Very funny, and I agree entirely. Why don't people have a sense of humour these days? I get such a laugh watching Rieu and his cast of thousands - I think "Cecil B DeMille" and his monumental kitsch!! Just when a hundred thousand people are never enough....

Sorry if people are offended. Important distinction: this is not a criticism of YOU so don't take it so badly or personally. Lighten up, like Andre!!! (Will that be fries with that?)


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## Guest

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Victor Borge was pure entertainment alright, and he was very good at it. But he didn't sell himself with a strange long hair-do, angelic pose holding a violin in a maestro suit on every CD cover, Alice in Wonderland fluffy stuff.
> 
> This sell-out cover even has the tile "A Celebration of Music".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or this cover, which seeing for the first time, I would think he was a classical music concerto soloist.


Hmm, using album/DVD covers to criticize? What should we learn from these then?

































Images on album covers are a ridiculous way to judge music. The Brandenburg Concerto album above is one of my favorites, but what the hell is with the deer? And how many album covers consist of a picture of the conductor or soloist depicted in some whimsical way, or looking like some musician-as-God come down to bestow their gifts on us mortals?


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## Guest

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> Harpsichord concerto, you are THE MAN (or woman!). Very funny, and I agree entirely. Why don't people have a sense of humour these days? I get such a laugh watching Rieu and his cast of thousands - I think "Cecil B DeMille" and his monumental kitsch!! Just when a hundred thousand people are never enough....
> 
> Sorry if people are offended. Important distinction: this is not a criticism of YOU so don't take it so badly or personally. Lighten up, like Andre!!! (Will that be fries with that?)


Wow - if you are comparing Rieu to De Mille, then you are praising him even more than I. I wouldn't consider a comparison to De Mille as a bad thing.


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## GoneBaroque

Andre Rieu certainly puts on a good show and has probably brought many listeners closer to classical music, but I am always reminded of Oscar Levant's response when he was asked if he had seen "The Sound of Music; "No, I am Diabetic".


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## HarpsichordConcerto

DrMike said:


> What should we learn from these then?


I have learnt that those ladies are seriously beautiful.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> Harpsichord concerto, you are THE MAN (or woman!). Very funny, and I agree entirely. Why don't people have a sense of humour these days? I get such a laugh watching Rieu and his cast of thousands - I think "Cecil B DeMille" and his monumental kitsch!! Just when a hundred thousand people are never enough....
> 
> Sorry if people are offended. Important distinction: this is not a criticism of YOU so don't take it so badly or personally. Lighten up, like Andre!!! (Will that be fries with that?)


Thank you, CountenanceAnglaise. Me = bloke.


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## Guest

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> I have learnt that those ladies are seriously beautiful.


So if it is so wrong to sell classical music with hype and kitsch, why should it be okay to sell it with sex? An Anne-Sophie Mutter in a low neckline, VERY form-fitting dress? Anna Netrebko (prominently displaying cleavage) being embraced by Elina Garanca? Or with a deer in some non-descript concrete structure? Or a non-descript attractive woman who seems to have nothing whatsoever to do with the work?


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## Dodecaplex

Look at this amateur pianist acting as if he's having an orgasm or something!
And frankly, hastily judging a meaningless CD cover is all I really need to determine that, from this moment onwards, I'll criticize this pianist to no end.










Note that I'm in no way comparing Rieu to Gould, I'm just saying it's nonsensical to criticize CD covers.

Edit: I guess it's been done already. Well, never mind.


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## Sid James

The opinions of another Australian member here, Harpsichord Concerto, make me ashamed to be an Australian and ashamed to be a classical music listener. I have blocked him, but his quotes reflected in others posts above show him to be what he says he's against. 

He has stated or strongly implied, as well as other hard core conservatives on this forum, that people like me and others here, who listen to post-1945 music (esp. of experimental or electronic kind) are snobs, elitists, highbrow or there's something wrong with us. Well he should look in the mirror. I enjoy a wide variety of music, as does someone like violadude, his knowledge of a lot of the older music is extensive and in depth, no wonder he is a composer, or studying to be, he has the goods in my book. Musicians that I know personally tend to be similarly tolerant and accepting of other's tastes. But not so with some people on this forum, probably a minority but a vocal one.

My point is that it is hypocritical to use certain labels against people, listeners or musicians, when you are just crapshooting, and at easy targets. Let's crapshoot at some of the sacred cows around here, let's act like real men, to paraphrase Charles Ives. I could go on and on. I hate hypocrisy and lack of commonsense.

I have said enough. I have several albums by Rieu and have read his biography. I know what I'm talking about. I'm not just fixated on his album covers, that is superficial. I have criticised some of his arrangements as on steroids, but most of them I like. Same with serious composers, some of Boulez's music I like or even love, for example, but others I don't. It's all about balance and actual experience not just making judgements and being a snob, poo-pooing people for what they enjoy.

Rieu is basically a decent man. He's set up a charity over 20 years ago to combat desertification in the stricken Sahel region of West AFrica. He's done many things like this that people don't know about. Unlike some "great" musicians who were clearly douchebags on the personal front, he's not about ME ME ME. I won't name names, but I think you know what I'm saying, in any case the reputation of sacred cows are involved. Well I don't give a damn about sacred cows. I just listen to music, that's it. & if I like what Rieu does and I dislike what a "great" musician or composer does, so be it. I just go by what I like, not rubbish ideology or double standards...


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## HarpsichordConcerto

DrMike said:


> So if it is so wrong to sell classical music with hype and kitsch, why should it be okay to sell it with sex? An Anne-Sophie Mutter in a low neckline, VERY form-fitting dress? Anna Netrebko (prominently displaying cleavage) being embraced by Elina Garanca? Or with a deer in some non-descript concrete structure? Or a non-descript attractive woman who seems to have nothing whatsoever to do with the work?


Nothing wrong with the cover per se. My point was selling Rieu himself with what was presented - fluff with fluff. Anna Netrebko prominently displaying cleavage embraced by Elina Garanca - all the better! Their reputation for what they do on the classical opera stage precedes them.


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## Guest

Harpsichord Concerto, I say again - you are THE MAN. High five.


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## violadude

Sid James said:


> I enjoy a wide variety of music, as does someone like violadude, his knowledge of a lot of the older music is extensive and in depth, no wonder he is a composer, or studying to be, he has the goods in my book. Musicians that I know personally tend to be similarly tolerant and accepting of other's tastes. But not so with some people on this forum, probably a minority but a vocal one.


Why thank you, sir :tiphat: I do think there is at least some kind of value in most every composer's output and I try to be open minded about what that value could be, focusing on positive aspects in whatever I listen to instead of negative ones.

As for judgment and things like that, I basically try my hardest not to talk about things I don't know much about haha. Take this thread for example. I have only been to one Andre Rieu concert that my mom took me to years ago and it failed to make too much of an impression on me. That's all I have heard of him and it's not much. Therefore, I just haven't contributed anything to this thread because I am not knowledgeable enough to do so. That's pretty commonsense eh?


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## Sid James

^^Well going to a concert of Rieu's would qualify you to give some opinion imo. However, there have been many concerts I've also went to in the past that I don't remember much about. Music is often in "the moment" for me. 

But I think in all these things it's good to be balanced. I said I don't like all of Rieu's work, but it's similar with a lot of other serious musicians and composers. I don't have my idols, I don't put one of the wigs on my avatar, etc., even though I like their music. Music is just music, not a religion and not ideology. 

People can judge a book by their cover so to speak, but if I did that, I probably would buy little or no classical cd's, a lot of their covers are plain boring, but the music is anything but. So what if some of Rieu's covers are over the top? It's light music as I said, he's not playing Bartok's string quartets for pete's sake (which he says in his biography he enjoyed playing in the earlier "serious" part of his career and also when he was at uni, these things are not optional for trained musicians, all of them have to know how to play a variety of music, from old to new, a BASIC fact that some idolisers of music with thousands of cd's don't seem to simply "get" somehow)...


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## HarpsichordConcerto

violadude said:


> . I have only been to one Andre Rieu concert that my mom took me to years ago ...


What was the concert like? Curious. Did he have other dancers/waltzers etc. on stage? The TV shows of them appear to have more visual impact. He does rely a lot on the visuals also. Where there loud speakers etc. like a rock concert?


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## HarpsichordConcerto

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> Harpsichord Concerto, I say again - you are THE MAN. High five.


:lol: High 5 to ya, too!


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Sid James said:


> I don't have my idols, I don't put one of the wigs on my avatar, etc., even though I like their music. )...


I like to have "idols" and I do have a "wig" composer as my Avatar. It's quite fun for a classical music forum I think, and quite appropriate here at TC for obvious reasons, in my humble opinion. It's one of my ways to "popularise" the music of Handel here at TC, which I know I have done with several members, including you, and you have mentioned once or twice to have come to appreciate Handel's Italian cantatas. It's all good. (I have another portrait of him at his harpsichord in my profile. Check it out!).


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## moody

GoneBaroque said:


> Andre Rieu certainly puts on a good show and has probably brought many listeners closer to classical music, but I am always reminded of Oscar Levant's response when he was asked if he had seen "The Sound of Music; "No, I am Diabetic".


I would doubt that he's brought any body anywhere near classical music. Quite apart from anything else Strauss waltzes are not classical music and I do not believe that his fans will suddenly switch to Bach. Understand that I believe that everyone can listen to what they wish, but everyone should not post nonsense on here.


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## Guest

GoneBaroque, I laughed aloud when I read that comment attributed to the redoubtable Oscar Levant (friend of George Gershwin), but I think "The Sound of Music" quite a worthwhile film (after years of having resisted it). The opening titles sequence with the medley of the main tunes and the magnificent orchestration was very moving. Also, "Somewhere in my youth or childhood" (I think that's the title), written by Rodgers alone because Oscar had died in 1958, is quite lovely. I think Julie Andrews may be the problem. She reminds me of Kathryn Grayson in an earlier era making those kitch films with Joe Pasternak for MGM. Reasonably good voice, bit thin but not suitable for the genre, and with the personality of an ashtray. Keep up these interesting discussions!

And I agree with "moody" - Andre Rieu enthusiasts would rarely, if ever, make the transition to serious art music. For them, Rieu IS classical music. I was on a river cruise in 2009 on the Rhine and Danube and people on it were paying a lot of money to attend the faux Mozart/Strauss concerts in Vienna and had been to Andre Rieu. They asked me if I was going and I replied "No". They looked askance: "But we thought you liked classical music. I replied that it was precisely because I liked classical music that I WASN'T going". (Sorry if I've told that before - senior's moment!!)


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## jhar26

Many musicals from especially the 1930's-1950's are very good. Just because the're not considered hip or cool doesn't mean that they are not good. Besides - many 'cool people' listen to jazz and most of those guys and girls have played and sung tunes from those musicals for their entire lifes. Some wouldn't have had a career without them.


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## Guest

Don't get me wrong "jhar26", I love the music of the American Theatre (and its filmed musicals). But some of these film musicals were, IMO, not very good. I'm thinking of the Pasternak musicals for MGM with Mario Lanza and Kathryn Grayson and the Jeanette McDonald/Nelson Eddy pictures. Didn't much like the 30's musicals either, except for '42nd Street', 'Gold-diggers' and the Astaire/Rogers musicals for RKO. But the great film musicals were absolute works of art, IMO.


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## jhar26

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> Don't get me wrong "jhar26", I love the music of the American Theatre (and its filmed musicals). But some of these film musicals were, IMO, not very good. I'm thinking of the Pasternak musicals for MGM with Mario Lanza and Kathryn Grayson and the Jeanette McDonald/Nelson Eddy pictures. Didn't much like the 30's musicals either, except for '42nd Street', 'Gold-diggers' and the Astaire/Rogers musicals for RKO. But the great film musicals were absolute works of art, IMO.


I basically agree, but I didn't mean exclusively movie musicals but also those for the theatre. Glad that you like the Astaire/Rogers movies.


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## Guest

"A foggy day in London town,
Had me lonesome; had me down;
I viewed the morning with alarm,
British Museum had lost it's charm.
How long, I wondered, would this thing last,
But the age of miracles hadn't passed,
For suddenly I saw you there,
And in foggy London town the sun was shining - everywhere!"

Well, who could write lyrics like that??!! I love the words as much as the music. Be we need another thread for this. I'll start one.


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## flylooper

To the extent that AR can get people who otherwise would not give symphony-style music a chance, what he does is good. I consider myself reasonably musically sophisticated, yet I can remember the precise moment when I first heard something other than big band / popular music. It was when I first heard "Rhapsody in Blue" on the radio while laying in bed. I was around 7 or 8 and from that moment on I was hooked. 

It's been a 60 year discovery ever since: piano lessons at 9, music major in college, season ticket holder to the San Francisco Symphony for years...all because of one magic moment on the radio. 

Perhaps AR does the same for other "uninitiated" folk. I certainly hope so.


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## Manxfeeder

flylooper said:


> It was when I first heard "Rhapsody in Blue" on the radio while laying in bed. I was around 7 or 8 and from that moment on I was hooked.


As they say in Hello Dolly, "It Only Takes a Moment." I agree; the crossover people create sparks that can turn into flames.

I was going to do a music appreciation presentation for some high schoolers, and I included a couple videos of his just because of his showmanship. Kids today are visual, and that kind of thing helps draw them into something unfamiliar like classical music.


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## Guest

moody said:


> I would doubt that he's brought any body anywhere near classical music. *Quite apart from anything else Strauss waltzes are not classical music* and I do not believe that his fans will suddenly switch to Bach. Understand that I believe that everyone can listen to what they wish, but everyone should not post nonsense on here.


Forgive me for asking, but why are Strauss waltzes not classical music? And if they are not, and that somehow diminishes Rieu, then what should I make of these conductors:
Harnoncourt








Reiner









Everybody needs some introduction to classical. Mine started with goofy Looney Tunes riffs on classical works (Elmer Fudd/Bugs Bunny "Kill the wabbit" set to Wagner's Ride of the Valkyrie). Or my thinking Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D Minor sounded like Dracula music.

And just skimming through his recordings on Amazon, I see Mozart, Ravel, Tchaikovscky, Humperdink, Richard Strauss, Grieg . . . It isn't all Strauss walzes.


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## moody

flylooper said:


> To the extent that AR can get people who otherwise would not give symphony-style music a chance, what he does is good. I consider myself reasonably musically sophisticated, yet I can remember the precise moment when I first heard something other than big band / popular music. It was when I first heard "Rhapsody in Blue" on the radio while laying in bed. I was around 7 or 8 and from that moment on I was hooked.
> 
> It's been a 60 year discovery ever since: piano lessons at 9, music major in college, season ticket holder to the San Francisco Symphony for years...all because of one magic moment on the radio.
> 
> Perhaps AR does the same for other "uninitiated" folk. I certainly hope so.


But "Rhapsody In Blur" is classical music as far as I am concerned and Gershwin wanted it to be.
Glad to see another old-timer this place is full of spotty teenagers !


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## moody

moody said:


> But "Rhapsody In Blur" is classical music as far as I am concerned and Gershwin wanted it to be.
> Glad to see another old-timer this place is full of spotty teenagers !


I have just decided that I prefer "Rhapsody In Blue".


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## Sid James

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> ...And I agree with "moody" - Andre Rieu enthusiasts would rarely, if ever, make the transition to serious art music...


I think that way of thining may be a judgement of sorts, an unconsciuos one. You value & are passionate about serious art music. That is fine. BUt other people might have other tastes and they listen to Rieu's music for different reasons. I personally mostly listen to serious music but I also listen to light music, eg. easy listening, operetta, comic opera, stage musicals, etc. Also categories often allied to classical, eg. film musics, crossover, world music, etc.

I know the criticism of Rieu & I've talked to people about it here on the ground. I've bought them to middle ground. One colleague said Rieu was a ****** basically. I explained to him what I thought, my experience with Rieu's music. Then the colleague said "I don't like him, but it sounds like he knows what he's doing, he's a trained musician, etc."

But on online forums it's different. We build shrines here and entomb and enbalm our "heroes." Well I don't, I just go by commonsense and experience, not elitism (or I hope I am being down to earth?).

Anyway, at least this conversation has moved away from criticising Rieu's album covers, which I think is a superficial way to approach any musician's work...


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## moody

You know what it is don't you, you just like to have a go---I think it's just wonderful to watch. Probably things can get much more superficial based on what I've seen so far.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

moody said:


> Probably things can get much more superficial based on what I've seen so far.


:lol: I like superficial talk on a superficial artist, namely Andre Rieu. I just found another cover that is so ... I'm lost for words. It would make Susan Boyle jealous!


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## moody

DrMike said:


> Forgive me for asking, but why are Strauss waltzes not classical music? And if they are not, and that somehow diminishes Rieu, then what should I make of these conductors:
> Harnoncourt
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Reiner
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Everybody needs some introduction to classical. Mine started with goofy Looney Tunes riffs on classical works (Elmer Fudd/Bugs Bunny "Kill the wabbit" set to Wagner's Ride of the Valkyrie). Or my thinking Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D Minor sounded like Dracula music.
> 
> And just skimming through his recordings on Amazon, I see Mozart, Ravel, Tchaikovscky, Humperdink, Richard Strauss, Grieg . . . It isn't all Strauss walzes.


I answered this I thought but it seems to have disappeared. I'll certainly forgive you, they are not classical music for the same reason that G and S is not --- that is not decrying anything! I also said that I was not diminishing Rieu , I'm really not interested in him , he's just there like Herb Alpert. I also counted the number of Viennese recordings that I have and it was I believe 230 CDs and LPs , so give me a break won't you. Perhaps you can find a problem worthy of undoubted expertise.


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## Guest

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> :lol: I like superficial talk on a superficial artist, namely Andre Rieu. I just found another cover that is so ... I'm lost for words. It would make Susan Boyle jealous!


I guess I'm not sure what you find so comical about this cover. It is the artist holding his instrument of choice with an image depicting the venue where he performed. So there is the Billboard blurb about being the #1 Classical Artist in America - I have bought numerous classical albums that will prominently display when they have received some accolade or award.

Back in my olden days, when punk rock was my thing, there was a song by the band Lagwagon called Knowitall, referring to "afficionados" who "knew" what was and wasn't good in their genre - in this case punk, but I think you could apply it to this current situation. The particular lyrics that I think are apt, referring to these "knowitalls" are as follows:
"The bands are good 'til they make enough cash
to eat food, and get a pad.
Then they're sold out and their music's cliche.
'Cause talents exclusive to bands without pay.
Knowitall, knowitall,
did you really listen to that song?
Could you ever write what you call wrong?"

Apparently appealing to more than just the "enlightened" in-depth classical music enthusiasts, playin *gasp* Johann Strauss waltzes, and selling yourself as a brand get's your classical musician club membership card revoked.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Nice lyrics. I agree they are apt.


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## Sid James

I'd just like to reiterate what I've said above, concisely in a list form -

Re Andre Rieu -

1. He's a light musician, it's light music, that's all it is, nothing more, nothing less.

2. He's university trained in string playing, got a degree.

3. He spent over 20 years playing in symphony orchestras (serious music) in the Netherlands.

4. He came from a musical family, his father was a noted conductor in the Netherlands, esp. of J.S. Bach. Music is Rieu's lifeblood, so to speak, he knows and respects "serious" classical, from the old masters to the likes of Bartok.

5. His arrangements have been praised by the likes of Riccardo Chailly.

6. He took a risk in 1990, aged about 40, to set up his own light orchestra. They started rehearsing in school halls and toured the Netherlands and neighbouring countries on a shoestring budget. Threw in his day job with the serious symphony orchestras. He was passionate about light music. It only began to really pay off financially after about 10 years, in the 2000's decade.

7. Rieu has resurrected some light music previously only on mono recordings before 1945. Yes, his albums do have warhorses but he has bought to light many classics of yesteryear that were forgotten. Eg. gems of operetta and lesser known dance musics, etc. One of them is Toselli's _Serenade_, I think that was his first best selling single. So he's like Jordi Savall or any of the HIP guys, for example, or Bernstein with the music of Ives, etc. Bringing to light things we might not otherwise know about. It's only a matter if the individual listener values this or not. Some of you don't, but I don't see many big fans of Ives around here either. Does that mean Lenny was rubbish?

8. Outside of the musical front, he's done a good deal of charity work. With a Dutch ecologist he set up a charity to decrease the spread of desert in West Africa's stricken Sahel region. He is basically a good man. Unlike some of your sacred cows, he has actually done some good on this earth.

Anyway, that's it, based on my reading his biography and also listening to his arrangements and playing. I don't worship him. He's like time out for me from serious music. I'm probably an anomaly as most of his fans aren't as eclectic as me, most likely. But who cares? If I can hear quality in what he does, then there must be something there, I've been listening to classical all my life...


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Sid James said:


> 8. Outside of the musical front, he's done a *good deal of charity work*. With a Dutch ecologist he set up a charity to decrease the spread of desert in West Africa's stricken Sahel region. He is basically a good man. Unlike some of your sacred cows, he has actually done some good on this earth.


Charity work is good. I approve.


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## Guest

Dr. Mike, Nicholas Harnoncourt is an all round Dude. I'm seeing him at the Musikverein on Sunday evening with Concentus Musicus and they're playing some Bach Cantatas. He would have played Strauss to make money!! He sure as hell isn't going to get rich by just selling Bach!! Meanwhile, I think these links could be an excellent introduction to classical music!!! What do you all think?











Dr. Mike and Sid I acknowledge your comments about elitism and why people can't abide Rieu. I've made my share of jokes - and it's the sanitized, 'perfumed' look about the man which sends me into a spin. I think you either like this stuff or you don't. Let's agree to disagree. We're all music-lovers, right?


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## flylooper

moody said:


> But "Rhapsody In Blur" is classical music as far as I am concerned and Gershwin wanted it to be.
> Glad to see another old-timer this place is full of spotty teenagers !


Well, I suppose, since it is orchestral music (although Grofé's orig. arrangement was for a jazz band) it could *loosely* be called such but the truth is that there is no real traditionally classical construction to it (i.e. motive, restatement, development, etc.). It's really, upon analysis, a series of really wonderful themes. (I guess by calling it a "rhapsody" it gives the composer all kinds of latitude.)

As a kid I thought it was the greatest thing ever composed and for years couldn't understand why Gershwin wasn't accorded the same respect as, say, Copland. But I must say that I loved it so much that I later learned it and played it in a college recital with my private teacher playing the 2nd piano (orch.) part. You know, just about every orchestra in the world has done that piece. It's a real money maker for most orchestras. (I have a old recording on an LP with Oscar Levant and the Philadelphia/Ormandy.)


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## flylooper

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> Dr. Mike, Nicholas Harnoncourt is an all round Dude. I'm seeing him at the Musikverein on Sunday evening with Concentus Musicus and they're playing some Bach Cantatas.


Hey, C.A.!!!

Did you see the program from MONDAY (the 12th?)? Thomas Hampson will be doing a whole bunch of Mahler, Shoenberg, Webern...

I just missed that date. I had to come home last week.

Stay over an extra day. You won't be disappointed!!


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## Guest

Flylooper, not I didn't know about that concert. In any case, I am returning to Australia on Friday night, 16th, after almost a year here in Vienna. Believe me, it doesn't give a minute's pleasure to be doing that!!!


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## Rasa

All this whaa about serious music.... What should we do but admire a man who makes a boatload of money out of something so many people enjoy (and is not heroïn), a finely oiled machine of an orchestra, a sense of showmanship etc. He creates work for musicians. Applause. I still won't listen and watch is for pleasure, another matter entirely.



flylooper said:


> Well, I suppose, since it is orchestral music (although Grofé's orig. arrangement was for a jazz band) it could *loosely* be called such but the truth is that there is no real traditionally classical construction to it (i.e. motive, restatement, development, etc.). It's really, upon analysis, a series of really wonderful themes. (I guess by calling it a "rhapsody" it gives the composer all kinds of latitude.)


I love Rhapsody in Blue because it's exellent bait for snooty faux-connoisseurs.


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## Sid James

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> [Harnoncourt]...He would have played Strauss to make money!!


This isn't true. Look on my blog. I have listened to that Harnoncourt J. Strauss Jnr. disc. Again, people are judging without little or ANY actual experience with what's at hand. With that disc, Harnoncourt was using same size orchestra as the composer did in his day. & also doing other things, with regards to the original scores (which he studied in depth before making that recording), to make a kind of "authentic" or HIP recording of the waltz king's music, just as he'd do for the wigs. & the whole album is a concept album, about things Strauss wrote connected to the city of Berlin, if I remember correctly.

So there you go, is this album just money making exercise? I don't think so. Why do we have to doubt an artist's artistic integrity if he's not doing something like old wig music?

Yes, this is definitely a matter of ELITISM, nothing else, I could rant on and on, but I've made my points clear here. People should I think base their views on a modicum of experience, not highbrow attitudes.

& my avatar is itself a send up of some (a minority of, a vocal minority) dinosaur attitudes on this forum. Eg. the ancient Wagner vs. Brahms "debate" which bit the dust like 100 or more years ago. Or this issue with light music. I mean, the great Brahms admired J. Strauss Jnr greatly, they were not only colleagues but on very friendly terms I understand. One of the waltzes on that Harnoncourt album was dedicated to Brahms. So I think some of the dinosaurs on this forum should...I will stop right there...I think people can finish what I'm saying...


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## Guest

Elitism, snobbery, dinosaur-fodder...whatever. I might ask Harnoncourt on Sunday night (if I can get near him) why he recorded that Strauss CD and what he was trying to achieve, when almost his entire creative life has been and is spent with the baroque or classical periods. In any case, did you know he is directly related to the last Austrian Emperor (he actually has a title) - so the music of Strauss will be in his DNA.

As to Brahms. Yes, I've heard that bit about Brahms admiring the waltzes of Strauss - apparently he penned something once on top of a Strauss manuscript, "not by JB, unfortunately". I don't think there's a single thing wrong with the melodies of Strauss - they are as good as anything which Schubert wrote (melodically), and their arrangements are quite fine. It's the interminable 3/4 time signature and the monotony of that which drives me mad. I get 'mal de mer' (seasickness) when I listen to it. Personally, I think Brahms' waltz parody in his 3rd symphony (though brief) is finer than anything written by any Strauss waltz-composer, and then some.... Also, Ravel's "La Valse" is far superior IMO.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> ... Nicholas Harnoncourt is an all round Dude.


You hit the nail there. When Harnoncourt conducts Strauss' Waltz or Bach cantatas, you know he is in it for the music and for making money, and whatever other artistic and economic sense that might go with it. He advocates the outreaching of the repertoire he conducts. I also don't doubt there might be financial incentives involved. But he doesn't do this necessarily by dressing up as a maestro and employing whatever "gimmicks" on stage to say "this is classical music", including chandeliers and loudspeakers! Oh how alluring to the masses these props must be to the unsuspecting "classical music" lover believing it all, _but as long as they enjoy it, I am a nobody to judge anything else_.


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## Guest

Harpsichord Concerto, yes, financial incentives will always play a major role. Strauss' waltzes are very popular here in Vienna. I love Harnoncourt's concerts because he always comes to the front and speaks to the audience first (in Deutsch, of course) and there is always lots of laughter and smiles. He's in it for the enjoyment too. He's a musicologist, musician and conductor and is constantly researching and exploring. I agree that as long as people enjoy music we shouldn't judge, but at some point we make MUSICAL JUDGMENTS and I don't think we ought to get one confused with the other. I like to think I make musical judgments, but some people become personally offended because it is their music. That cannot be my problem. Now, if you will excuse me, I have some tree-tops to eat for dinner!!


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## Sid James

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> Elitism, snobbery, dinosaur-fodder...whatever. I might ask Harnoncourt on Sunday night (if I can get near him) why he recorded that Strauss CD and what he was trying to achieve, when almost his entire creative life has been and is spent with the baroque or classical periods. In any case, did you know he is directly related to the last Austrian Emperor (he actually has a title) - so the music of Strauss will be in his DNA...


It would probably be better or more useful to actually listen to his Strauss cd. That's probably what he'd say or suggest. Actually listening to ANY music is better than judging it or doing intellectualising and pseudo theory, etc. It's about experience basically. Same with Andre Rieu or any musician or composer. Not superficial judgements.



> ...
> Also, Ravel's "La Valse" is far superior IMO.


Yeah, but probably not his _Bolero_, as it's too popular. Heaps of people on these forums trash _Bolero_, so is it rubbish? Also _La Valse _was a reflection by Ravel on the dead Hapsburg EMpire, so kind of a tribute the the waltz king. Could it have been written without Strauss' waltzes having existed in the first place? Same thing with Richard Strauss' suites of waltzes from _Der Rosenkavalier._

Basically, I CAN THINK. Anyway, forget it, my contribution to this thread is over. & I'm sick and tired of a vocal minority of HARD conservative jurassic dinosaurs on this forum, talking not of commonsense or experience but value judgements, and I won't go further...


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## Guest

Yes, we do make comparative value judgments whenever we asses the worth of any piece of art - music, painting, architecture, poetry, film. I think you'll find that _La Valse_ is actually a parody, not a tribute. I cannot listen to music without intellectualizing, as well as emotional involvement. If the work did not provoke us to think in that way we would not waste our time with it. I'm sorry that you feel you cannot continue on this thread. Don't see it as a job of proselytizing a particular kind of music - just enjoy other peoples' comments as they do yours. I know that's why I'm here; to enjoy myself.


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## moody

Sid James said:


> It would probably be better or more useful to actually listen to his Strauss cd. That's probably what he'd say or suggest. Actually listening to ANY music is better than judging it or doing intellectualising and pseudo theory, etc. It's about experience basically. Same with Andre Rieu or any musician or composer. Not superficial judgements.
> 
> Yeah, but probably not his _Bolero_, as it's too popular. Heaps of people on these forums trash _Bolero_, so is it rubbish? Also _La Valse _was a reflection by Ravel on the dead Hapsburg EMpire, so kind of a tribute the the waltz king. Could it have been written without Strauss' waltzes having existed in the first place? Same thing with Richard Strauss' suites of waltzes from _Der Rosenkavalier._
> 
> Basically, I CAN THINK. Anyway, forget it, my contribution to this thread is over. & I'm sick and tired of a vocal minority of HARD conservative jurassic dinosaurs on this forum, talking not of commonsense or experience but value judgements, and I won't go further...


Nonsense, you'll be back in 5 minutes--you can't help it!


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## Scarpia

Sid James said:


> Basically, I CAN THINK. Anyway, forget it, my contribution to this thread is over. & I'm sick and tired of a vocal minority of HARD conservative jurassic dinosaurs on this forum, talking not of commonsense or experience but value judgements, and I won't go further...


Why so intent that the opinions of people who disagree with you are trash?

I must say My own opinion is that Mr. Rieu is uninteresting in the extreme. Strauss waltzes are not saccharine enough as it is, they have to be shortened, artificially sweetened, performed by bleach-blonds in chiffon ballroom gowns? I don't think he helps initiate anyone to serious classical music, since what he really does is play off a stereotype of classical music as pretty, passionless melodies.


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## Guest

There is a ready market for this kind of thing - same with the Strauss/Mozart concerts here in Vienna, which are so in-your-face. I wouldn't give Andre Rieu a second look, but there are thousands who go there because they "love them Strausses waltzes - you know, classical music". I've seen them on TV in Australia, singing "Waltzing Matilda" as if it were from "The Merry Widow" and LOVING IT. If that gets their rocks off, good for them - it's nice to see people happy together for a change. Personally, I agree with Scarpia. I've been 'to the mountain' and it's difficult to come back from that (if you get my metaphor).


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## StlukesguildOhio

CountenanceAnglais- Yes, we do make comparative value judgments whenever we asses the worth of any piece of art - music, painting, architecture, poetry, film. I think you'll find that La Valse is actually a parody, not a tribute.

I'm not certain I would employ the term "parody"... Satire? Whatever. I agree that in part Ravel's intention was to convey something of the decline of the old Viennese/Austro-Hungarian culture that had produced Strauss... but I suspect there is a sense of melancholy over this loss of something Ravel quite likely loved to a certain extent. I think of Cervantes' _Don Quixote_. On one level the novel is a parody of the old, outdated romances and epic tales of heroic knights and damsels in distress. At the same time, Cervantes clearly loved the same genre... and in the end, succeeded in producing a work which on one level was itself one of the greatest romances/epic tales of heroic knights...

Are Strauss waltzes on the level of Beethoven's late quartets or Bach's St Matthew Passion? Of course not. But sometimes we're in the mood for such bon-bons, and as bon-bons go, Strauss was a master.


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## Guest

We'll have to disagree about the Ravel - which descends into chaos and discombobulation in the end. I still tend to think of it as a parody because it is more like a burlesque caricature. 

Johann Strauss? Yes, he was a master of the 'bon bon" - but then so was Cole Porter: I know which one I prefer!!


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## moody

StlukesguildOhio said:


> CountenanceAnglais- Yes, we do make comparative value judgments whenever we asses the worth of any piece of art - music, painting, architecture, poetry, film. I think you'll find that La Valse is actually a parody, not a tribute.
> 
> I'm not certain I would employ the term "parody"... Satire? Whatever. I agree that in part Ravel's intention was to convey something of the decline of the old Viennese/Austro-Hungarian culture that had produced Strauss... but I suspect there is a sense of melancholy over this loss of something Ravel quite likely loved to a certain extent. I think of Cervantes' _Don Quixote_. On one level the novel is a parody of the old, outdated romances and epic tales of heroic knights and damsels in distress. At the same time, Cervantes clearly loved the same genre... and in the end, succeeded in producing a work which on one level was itself one of the greatest romances/epic tales of heroic knights...
> 
> Are Strauss waltzes on the level of Beethoven's late quartets or Bach's St Matthew Passion? Of course not. But sometimes we're in the mood for such bon-bons, and as bon-bons go, Strauss was a master.


Ravel wrote it as a tribute to Johann Strauss 11 and described it as--" a kind of apotheosis of the Viennese waltz mingled with destiny's fantastic whirl ". One should get to hear Ravel's piano transcription , I have Leonard Pennario doing it and it is fantastic.


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## jhar26




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## Guest

It's the "mingled with destiny's fantastic whirl" (see my 'dervish' comments) in this quote, Moody, which is the most telling. Ultimately, the composer must leave the reception to the audience (no matter what the programmatic intention). To me, it spells decay.

Jhar26, I always laugh at this song when the words "a symphony by Strauss" are sung because, clearly, Strauss didn't write a symphony. The Gershwins were referring to bon bons!!


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## violadude

jhar26 said:


>


ho ho ho that was quite humurous indeed.


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## jhar26

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> Jhar26, I always laugh at this song when the words "a symphony by Strauss" are sung because, clearly, Strauss didn't write a symphony. The Gershwins were referring to bon bons!!


I think you're talking about Cole Porter's "You're the Top."


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## Guest

Most certainly I'm talking about the Gershwin song which talks about a "symphony by Strauss", then is followed by a Jewish kind of exclamation and rhyme like "carouse" - it is an artificial rhyme Ira used. And I think, yes, Porter did mention it too in "You're the Top" - a wonderful song, BTW.


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## jhar26

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> Most certainly I'm talking about the Gershwin song which talks about a "symphony by Strauss", then is followed by a Jewish kind of exclamation and rhyme like "carouse" - it is an artificial rhyme Ira used. And I think, yes, Porter did mention it too in "You're the Top" - a wonderful song, BTW.


I see. I probably just don't remember it or that verse was left out of the version that I've heard most recently.


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## Guest

*I stand absolutely corrected, jhar26, you are quite right*. It was Cole Porter who referred to a "symphony" by Strauss and not the Gershwin brothers - who do provide a beautiful tribute to the waltz. I was obviously hearing it incorrectly, and I've always been surprised that a songwriter of this calibre - namely Cole Porter with his classical training - didn't realize Strauss wrote no symphonies!! It's nice to have somebody 'in the know' on this forum; thanks!!

Love those lyrics to "You're the Top, BTW - ..you're a Bendel bonnet; you're a Shakespeare sonnet; 
it even mentions the GOPs!! "You're Garbo's salary, you're cellophane". Oh, wonderful!!


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## jhar26

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> I've always been surprised that a songwriter of this calibre - namely Cole Porter with his classical training - didn't realize Strauss wrote no symphonies!!


He probably knew, but he must have figured that Strauss rhymed better with Mickey Mouse than Beethoven. :lol:


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## Rasa

He probably knew, but went ahead knowing some sap would make a point of correcting him.


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## Guest

Yes, that's the trouble with us 'saps' - we get to go to university to study music and after all that sweat, live in Vienna for 12 months to experience more of it (without having to work a day!!).

jhar26, I can't believe Cole Porter couldn't find a better rhyme. This is the man who wrote, 
"Where is Rebecca, my Becky-wekky-o,
Should still she be cruisin' that amusin'
Pontaveccio"!!


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## Scarpia

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> We'll have to disagree about the Ravel - which descends into chaos and discombobulation in the end. I still tend to think of it as a parody because it is more like a burlesque caricature.


The Ravel piece is not a Waltz, it is a symphonic poem depicting an occasion in which a Waltz is performed.


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## Guest

Oh, there's me thinking with a title "La Valse" that it was one!! Also, it is available in piano form and that's the one I have in my collection. You need to look back at what others have said about this piece by Ravel, since it was they who first suggested it as a 'homage' to Strauss. Cheers!


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## Sid James

Scarpia said:


> The Ravel piece is not a Waltz, it is a symphonic poem depicting an occasion in which a Waltz is performed.


I would add that_ La Valse_ is a purely concert hall work, not meant for dancing, which Johann Strauss II's waltzes, etc. were originally designed for.

Even comparing something like the waltz movement from Tchaikovsky's_ Serenade for Strings in C_ may not "work" because it too is a purely concert work.

I think it's better to make comparisons that make sense, not ones that are not related in terms of things like the purposes for which the music was concieved, etc. This is just "the basics" of music appreciation, I would think, but anyway I won't labour the point, I've made many on this thread and some people just won't take things straight, it all has to be complicated with their obvious bias against light music in the first place, which of course they don't admit to, so it's a waste...


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## moody

Sid James said:


> I would add that_ La Valse_ is a purely concert hall work, not meant for dancing, which Johann Strauss II's waltzes, etc. were originally designed for.
> 
> Even comparing something like the waltz movement from Tchaikovsky's_ Serenade for Strings in C_ may not "work" because it too is a purely concert work.
> 
> I think it's better to make comparisons that make sense, not ones that are not related in terms of things like the purposes for which the music was concieved, etc. This is just "the basics" of music appreciation, I would think, but anyway I won't labour the point, I've made many on this thread and some people just won't take things straight, it all has to be complicated with their obvious bias against light music in the first place, which of course they don't admit to, so it's a waste...


Dear good Sid, La Valse was written as a commission by Diaghilev for a ballet. First known as "Wien" (Vienna)it was a tribute to Strauss Waltzes. Diaghilev eventually refused it and the two fell out and nearly fought a duel. It was produced in the end as a ballet by Ida Rubinstein. There is no doubt that it is surreal and clearly far superior to "Bolero"' (Yawn).


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## Guest

No wonder the great ballet Impressario rejected the score from Ravel as it clearly parodied Waltzes and was, yes, surreal - I would say Expressionistic too, because that movement was well underway (at least in performing arts via cinema) by the time of its writing. But it clearly shows one man's "tribute" is another man's "parody".


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## Sid James

moody said:


> Dear good Sid, La Valse was written as a commission by Diaghilev for a ballet. First known as "Wien" (Vienna)it was a tribute to Strauss Waltzes. Diaghilev eventually refused it and the two fell out and nearly fought a duel. It was produced in the end as a ballet by Ida Rubinstein. There is no doubt that it is surreal and clearly far superior to "Bolero"' (Yawn).


Well I didn't know it was a ballet originally. At least I've learnt something from this thread now. I did remember, as I basically said originally, that it was a homage (you say tribute) to the Strauss waltz dynasty. But more important, a picture of the Hapsburg Empire disintegrating. In any case, it is mostly today (at least here in Australia) played purely as a concert hall work. But even if put on as a ballet, _La Valse _is still different from the Strauss's dance music originally meant for the ballroom.

I actually prefer_ Bolero _because I like that Spanish aspect, same as in Ravel's_ Rapsodie Espagnole_. It's also an earlier example of minimalism, as some have pointed out on this forum for ages. I know Ravel didn't like it but I still can like it. I hear the _Bolero_ as fully Ravel, whereas in_ La Valse_, the "ghosts" of the waltz is too much in that, but at the same time I like eg. Berg's works which are laden with references to waltzes, some other later composers as well, so it's hard to tell why_ La Valse _is not my favourite thing by Ravel. In any case, I think Ravel's _Piano Trio _is my favourite thing by him, and also his other chamber works...


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## Guest

We have strayed too far away from Andre Rieu in this thread, but agree with Sid about Ravel's Piano Trio - it's his finest achievement, as well as Daphnis and Chloe.


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## moody

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> We have strayed too far away from Andre Rieu in this thread, but agree with Sid about Ravel's Piano Trio - it's his finest achievement, as well as Daphnis and Chloe.


That can only be a good thing I would have thought.


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## larifari

YOU and people like you are are the reason why regular people (probably the same ones whose tax dollars pay your salary) are turned off classical music.

Anyone who reads from your post: ``We, the classical intelligentsia``, will automatically and rightfully learn, start and will ALWAYS despise you and your kind.

I am of humble beginnings. Born and raised in Hungary, I learned about classical music not from cross-eyed phony professors, but from my parents and communist radio, until I left and made my life on my own as a seventeen-year-old kid, who had the courage to strike out on my own. 

Be as uppity and condescending and patronizing as you are comfortable to be, you and your kind will never understand that to appreciate classical music is NOT the result of being ``educated`` by socialist indoctrinators, but the natural born ability to like and value the beauty of something that is beautiful, because it IS beautiful and NOT because a left-wing professor told to do so.


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## moody

You should start a revolution or something, your talents are wasted here.


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## Sid James

larifari said:


> ...
> Anyone who reads from your post: ``We, the classical intelligentsia``, will automatically and rightfully learn, start and will ALWAYS despise you and your kind.
> 
> ...


You call them "classical intelligentsia," I call them high priests. Despite ramming their causes in my throat over the years on this forum, none of them converted me to anything. I did it myself basically. & it was only POSITIVE people like the now departed handlebar with Hovhaness' music or Weston with Beethoven's late string quartets, these open minded people made me appreciate the music they loved. Same could be said to many other members here. The high priests are just at their sacred altar worshipping, they are not involved in real life, they are detached, up high and mighty. Well let them be. It doesn't effect me. I just end up putting them on my "ignore" list.

& none of this negativity will stop me from enjoying Andre Rieu's music or buying his cd's. As I said I don't worship him, I don't worship anybody. Initially I was a bit of a sceptic as well. But I challenge my own prejudgements just as I do those of others. I don't see myself as a hypocrite saying "do as I say and not as I do"...


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## StlukesguildOhio

Dr.Mike- Back in my olden days, when punk rock was my thing, there was a song by the band Lagwagon called Knowitall, referring to "afficionados" who "knew" what was and wasn't good in their genre - in this case punk, but I think you could apply it to this current situation. The particular lyrics that I think are apt, referring to these "knowitalls" are as follows:

"The bands are good 'til they make enough cash
to eat food, and get a pad.
Then they're sold out and their music's cliche.
'Cause talents exclusive to bands without pay.
Knowitall, knowitall,
did you really listen to that song?
Could you ever write what you call wrong?"

:lol: Big thumbs up!


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## Dodecaplex

larifari said:


> YOU and people like you are are the reason why regular people (probably the same ones whose tax dollars pay your salary) are turned off classical music.
> 
> Anyone who reads from your post: ``We, the classical intelligentsia``, will automatically and rightfully learn, start and will ALWAYS despise you and your kind.
> 
> I am of humble beginnings. Born and raised in Hungary, I learned about classical music not from cross-eyed phony professors, but from my parents and communist radio, until I left and made my life on my own as a seventeen-year-old kid, who had the courage to strike out on my own.
> 
> Be as uppity and condescending and patronizing as you are comfortable to be, you and your kind will never understand that to appreciate classical music is NOT the result of being ``educated`` by socialist indoctrinators, but the natural born ability to like and value the beauty of something that is beautiful, because it IS beautiful and NOT *because a left-wing professor *told to do so.


"Left-wing professor"? What? :lol:


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## moody

Sid James said:


> You call them "classical intelligentsia," I call them high priests. Despite ramming their causes in my throat over the years on this forum, none of them converted me to anything. I did it myself basically. & it was only POSITIVE people like the now departed handlebar with Hovhaness' music or Weston with Beethoven's late string quartets, these open minded people made me appreciate the music they loved. Same could be said to many other members here. The high priests are just at their sacred altar worshipping, they are not involved in real life, they are detached, up high and mighty. Well let them be. It doesn't effect me. I just end up putting them on my "ignore" list.
> 
> & none of this negativity will stop me from enjoying Andre Rieu's music or buying his cd's. As I said I don't worship him, I don't worship anybody. Initially I was a bit of a sceptic as well. But I challenge my own prejudgements just as I do those of others. I don't see myself as a hypocrite saying "do as I say and not as I do"...


Boy are you right, and are they not boring !


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## science

It is certainly in the grand tradition of showmanship. Paganini would approve, except that he shared a lot of the attention with the other musicians.

I think this is not going to become my thing, but it is at the very worst just harmless fun, and I really do appreciate people like Rieu and his fans for their contribution to the classical music world. The more, the merrier.


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## Amfibius

Guess what I was given for Christmas ... an Andre Rieu CD! It would be OK if they were playing a practical joke, but they weren't. They genuinely thought I would enjoy it. Thankfully I am very good at giving false smiles. I whacked it into the CD player immediately and pretended to enjoy it.

Do you like the album cover?


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## jhar26

Amfibius said:


> Guess what I was given for Christmas ... an Andre Rieu CD! It would be OK if they were playing a practical joke, but they weren't. They genuinely thought I would enjoy it.


They probably knew you wouldn't like it, but they must have thought, "if we give him one he doesn't like at least we can be sure that he won't already have a copy."


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## eorrific

Amfibius said:


> Guess what I was given for Christmas ... an Andre Rieu CD! It would be OK if they were playing a practical joke, but they weren't. They genuinely thought I would enjoy it. Thankfully I am very good at giving false smiles. I whacked it into the CD player immediately and pretended to enjoy it.
> 
> Do you like the album cover?


You should be grateful. They could've gotten you something worse, like an Andre Rieu *DVD*. :lol:


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