# Greatest tone poems



## Barking Spiderz

Tone poems are my favourite CM genre by quite some way. Anyway has anyone here seen the Digital Dream Door site. Here's what they reckon to be the Top 50 tone poems

http://www.digitaldreamdoor.com/pages/best-classic-topo.html

I've heard all these and many more not even listed and my own top 50 would look pretty different. For instance there's no Dvorak and there's more to Smetana than just Ma Vlast e.g Richard III, Wallensteins' Camp... Also their countryman Novak wrote some majestic tone poems e.g. Slovak Suite. And I'd have most of Sibelius's here too esp the Karelia Suite, En Saga and Nightride + Sunrise.

What do you think of this list?


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## emiellucifuge

I smell another TC list...


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## Webernite

Where's _Pelleas_?


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## Aksel

Why is the first Peer Gynt Suite there? It's incidental music. Not a tone poem. And besides, the second suite is so much better.


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## Art Rock

Any list of tone poems that excludes Arnold Bax is worthless. That's what I think of this list.

And yes, a top100/150/200 tone poems would be great, but real tone poems please, not suites etc.


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## bassClef

Isn't a tone poem strictly speaking a single movement ? Many in the list don't fit that qualification.

From Wikipedia:
A symphonic poem or tone poem is a piece of orchestral music in a single continuous section (a movement) in which the content of a poem, a story or novel, a painting, a landscape or another (non-musical) source is illustrated or evoked. The term was first applied by Hungarian composer Franz Liszt to his 13 works in this vein. In its aesthetic objectives, the symphonic poem is in some ways related to opera; whilst it does not use a sung text, it seeks like opera a union of music and drama.[1][2]

While many symphonic poems may compare in size and scale to symphonic movements (or even reach the length of an entire symphony), they are unlike traditional classical symphonic movements, in that their music is intended to inspire listeners to imagine or consider scenes, images, specific ideas or moods, and not to focus on following traditional patterns of musical form (e.g. sonata form). This intention to inspire listeners was a direct consequence of Romanticism which encouraged literary, pictorial and dramatic associations in music. Musical works which attempt to inspire listeners in this way are often referred to as program music, while music which has no such associations may be called absolute music.

Some piano and chamber works, such as Arnold Schoenberg's string sextet Verklärte Nacht, have similarities with symphonic poems in their overall intent and effect. However, the term symphonic poem is generally accepted to refer to orchestral works. A symphonic poem may stand on its own, or it can be part of a series combined into a symphonic suite . For example, The Swan of Tuonela (1895) is a tone poem from Jean Sibelius's Lemminkäinen Suite. A symphonic poem can also be part of a cycle of interrelated works, such as Vltava (The Moldau) as part of the six-work cycle Má vlast by Bedřich Smetana. Also, while the terms "symphonic poem" and "tone poem" have often been used interchangeably, some composers such as Richard Strauss and Jean Sibelius have preferred the latter term for pieces which were less symphonic in design and in which there is no special emphasis on thematic or tonal contrast.[3]

According to Macdonald, the symphonic poem met three 19th century aesthetic goals: it related music to outside sources; it often combined or compressed multiple movements into a single principal section; and it elevated instrumental program music to an aesthetic level which could be regarded as equivalent to, or higher than opera.[2] The symphonic poem remained popular from the 1840s until the 1920s, when the genre suffered a severe decline in popularity.


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## Aksel

Aren't tone poems one movement by definition, anyway?

EDIT: D'Oh. BassClef beat me to it.


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## bassClef

Yep I think we should draw up our own list - how we love lists ))


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## bassClef

Art Rock said:


> Any list of tone poems that excludes Arnold Bax is worthless. That's what I think of this list.
> 
> And yes, a top100/150/200 tone poems would be great, but real tone poems please, not suites etc.


Same could be said for Dvorak (none there!!?), he and Sibelius are the masters of the tone poem in my opinion, I like what I've heard from Bax also, though I haven't heard enough.


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## Delicious Manager

I have looked at this list and found that 19 out of 50 entries are not even 'tone poems'. Of the remaining 31, some of those are also dubious.

Many argue that such lists are pretty pointless. When they contain such inaccuracies as this one they are simply a waste of everyone's time.


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## Manxfeeder

Webernite said:


> Where's _Pelleas_?


I like early Schoenberg as much as the next guy and have more than one recording of Pelleas, but when considering it for a 50-greatest list, I have to admit when no one's looking, it has flaws.


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## Webernite

Manxfeeder said:


> I like early Schoenberg as much as the next guy and have more than one recording of Pelleas, but when considering it for a 50-greatest list, I have to admit when no one's looking, it has flaws.


Sure, but not flaws big enough to exclude it from the top _fifty_. It's not as if it's obscure. It's far better known than many of the other tone poems on that list.


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## Manxfeeder

Webernite said:


> Sure, but not flaws big enough to exclude it from the top _fifty_. It's not as if it's obscure. It's far better known than many of the other tone poems on that list.


Compared to the list, I agree.


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## Barking Spiderz

Viz definitions aren't works like The Planets, Ma Vlast and Novak's Slovak Suite sets of individual tone poems, rather than suites, as each piece is musically self-contained and only linked to the others by a common theme? Forgive me if I'm wrong but aren't suites really stories set to music, with a beginning 'chapter' several middle bits and a final 'chapter like with Lt Kije, Alexander Nevsky and Peer Gynt or have I just chosen three examples that happen to be used as incidental music to plays or films. I'm no expert so i'm not 100% clear.


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## Aksel

Barking Spiderz said:


> Viz definitions aren't works like The Planets, Ma Vlast and Novak's Slovak Suite sets of individual tone poems, rather than suites, as each piece is musically self-contained and only linked to the others by a common theme? Forgive me if I'm wrong but aren't suites really stories set to music, with a beginning 'chapter' several middle bits and a final 'chapter like with Lt Kije, Alexander Nevsky and Peer Gynt or have I just chosen three examples that happen to be used as incidental music to plays or films. I'm no expert so i'm not 100% clear.


Grieg's Peer Gynt was written *as* incidental music to the play Peer Gynt by Henrik Ibsen. It's not really intended as a free-standing work (although it is smashing as that as well). Lieutenant Kijé was written *as* music for the film of the same name. Alexander Nevsky is also film music. So none of these pieces are really tone poems.

But I would, however say that The Planets and Ma Vlast consist of individual tone poems.


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## Il_Penseroso

Delicious Manager said:


> I have looked at this list and found that 19 out of 50 entries are not even 'tone poems'. Of the remaining 31, some of those are also dubious.
> 
> Many argue that such lists are pretty pointless. When they contain such inaccuracies as this one they are simply a waste of everyone's time.


The list contains many mistakes if we have to choose only Tone-Poem masterworks but at least, I'm glad to see that *Franck's Le Chasseur Maudit* is included. Just listen to the beginnig .I've never heard anything more effective and more dramatic.


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## Romantic Geek

Where's Mannin Veen? ;-)


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## Moraviac

Wikipedia also has a list of symphonic poems. The latter really being just a beginning of a list, I think, but still nice. With Liszt and Sibelius as tone poem champions and Paul McCartney a little lost in the middle


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## Vaneyes

In this genre, R. Strauss and Sibelius speak to me the most.


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## Polednice

Leaving out Dvorak ought to be a crime. If Tchaikovsky's Shakespearean adventures count as tone poems, they should be up there too.


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## elgar's ghost

As that list stretches the point by including incidental music/suites then it can sure as hell stretch it in a more germane way and find room for one or two of Berlioz's overtures!


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## Enjoying Life

I know this is a side question but I will ask it anyway:

Do you think it is important to know the source of the tone poem? In other words does it effect your appreciation of the piece if you do or do not know what the underlying idea is - the scene or the story that the tone poem is based on?


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## Aksel

Enjoying Life said:


> I know this is a side question but I will ask it anyway:
> 
> Do you think it is important to know the source of the tone poem? In other words does it effect your appreciation of the piece if you do or do not know what the underlying idea is - the scene or the story that the tone poem is based on?


I don't really see it as vital to know the extra musical source for a tone poem, but in order to fully understand it, I do think that you need to know at least what the source is.


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## elgar's ghost

Enjoying Life said:


> I know this is a side question but I will ask it anyway:
> 
> Do you think it is important to know the source of the tone poem? In other words does it effect your appreciation of the piece if you do or do not know what the underlying idea is - the scene or the story that the tone poem is based on?


Some tone poems are more graphic than others - with the more allegorical/unfamiliar ones I tend to take my own mind with me and paint my own scene to the music as I go along whereas with others the subject may be more definitive/familiar and the picture is already formed in my mind before the music takes me on the journey.


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## Meaghan

Webernite said:


> Where's _Pelleas_?


Faure's suite (again, a not-a-tone-poem) is there (#42), but Schoenberg's tone poem isn't.


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## michelg

I really enjoy this talk. Tone poem is a genre I like and lately I discover Karlowicz (1876-1909) who died to young, in an avalanche, and Holbrooke (1878-1958) who dissepear from the british known composer.


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## harmony

I enjoy Sibelius' tone poems especially "The Swan of Tuonela", "Tapiola"
and Richard Strauss' ones such as "A Hero's Life" "Don Juan".
Tone poem is very attractive genre for me.


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## Polednice

Enjoying Life said:


> I know this is a side question but I will ask it anyway:
> 
> Do you think it is important to know the source of the tone poem? In other words does it effect your appreciation of the piece if you do or do not know what the underlying idea is - the scene or the story that the tone poem is based on?


Personally, I think it's absolutely essential, though I am slightly biased in that my favourite musical form is the symphonic poem when specifically based on a literary work. Of course, we can all agree that, if the music is good enough, then it will stand on its own two legs as a good, moving piece - but it's not just _understanding_ you get from reading/seeing the extra-musical source, it's also _insight_. If you familiarise yourself with the poetry of Erben (for Dvorak's symphonic poems), or Byron (for Tchaikovsky and Berlioz), or Dante (Tchaikovsky, Liszt etc.), or especially Goethe who seems very popular(!) then - in my case at the very least - the piece can be so, soooooo much more overwhelming, and you hear it with a completely fresh perspective. Besides, it's a good way to discover new literature anyway!


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## mmsbls

Enjoying Life said:


> I know this is a side question but I will ask it anyway:
> 
> Do you think it is important to know the source of the tone poem? In other words does it effect your appreciation of the piece if you do or do not know what the underlying idea is - the scene or the story that the tone poem is based on?





Polednice said:


> Personally, I think it's absolutely essential, though I am slightly biased in that my favourite musical form is the symphonic poem when specifically based on a literary work. Of course, we can all agree that, if the music is good enough, then it will stand on its own two legs as a good, moving piece - but it's not just _understanding_ you get from reading/seeing the extra-musical source, it's also _insight_.


I agree with Polednice. The music can certainly be enjoyable and stand on its own, but the work becomes more understandable and meaningful with the background. For me once I know the basis for the poem I can't help but incorporate that into my experience of listening. When I listen to Strauss's Alpine Symphony, I see the storm coming and almost feel the winds whipping around.

I think if you listen to a movie soundtrack, the pieces may convey some general feeling, but when you see the movie the music fits (usually) closely with the scene and makes more sense.


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## alvar550

Eller's "Dawn"


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## Argus

Strauss' confusingly titled Alpine Symphony is easily my favourite proper tone poem, and one of my favourite pieces of classical music in general.


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## tchaik

I do agree that this is a rather dubious list. Camille Saint-Saëns - Le Rouet d'Omphale and Dvorak - The Noon Witch are notable omissions. I would also have included more from Liszt and Franck. I also find Glazunov's The Sea and The Forest quite interesting. Hugo Alfven's Summer Rain is quite exquisite. There is also his Legend of the Skerries. Liadov's Kikmura is also very good. I would also agree with those who have recommended Arnold Bax and Novak. Nielson and Holbrooke also wrote tone poems. Webern has a surprisingly tonal Im Sommerwind. Svendson's Romeo and Juliet is worth a listen. Lyatoshinsky has Vistula which is also good.


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## Saturnus

> Isn't a tone poem strictly speaking a single movement ?


Well, one of Liszt's tone poems is divided into 3 movements, the "Von der Wiege bis zum Grabe", and Liszt is credited for inventing the genre. 
As I see it a tone poem must have a clear reference to literature. It is very strictly a program-music and must have or describe a storyline that the listener can read in the program - the idea was "a lieder for orchestra". However, there seems to be a trend to give the title also to very descriptive pieces of music where the subject is something from the physical environment (such as Smetana's Die Moldeau & Honegger's Pacific 231 & Rugby), I disagree with that because with such a broad definition the tone poem would be older than Franz Liszt and the word would lose its meaning. What I find difficult to answer is why ballet music or theatre music played without the stage performance is not a tone poem - a common answer is that the ballet & theatre music rely on the stage spectacle so the listener can make sense out of, in other words, is more impressionistic in nature, however this is not always true - especially for ballet music IMO.

My favorite tone poems are: 
Liszt: Les Preludes, Tasso, Von der Wiege bis zum Grabe & Hamlet
Saint-Saens: Danse Macabre, Phaeton
Sibelius: The Swan of Tuonela, Poholja's Daughter


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## Huilunsoittaja

The ultimate Russian tone poem on a uniquely Russian subject.


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## jdavid

The list includes the Janacek Sinfonietta (and other multi-movement pieces which might better be thought of as Suite-ish) - the Janacek is not a tone poem, it is what it is - a Sinfonietta or small symphonic work with 5 separate movements:

I. Allegretto (Fanfare)
II. Andante (The Castle, Brno)
III. Moderato (The Queen's Monastery, Brno)
IV. Allegretto (The Street Leading to the Castle)
V. Andante con moto (The Town Hall, Brno)

I checked to see if it might be considered a collection of tone poems like Smetana's 'Ma Vlast' from which 'The Moldau' comes, but could not find mention of the term. The list has a great number of wonderful Tone Poems, but like any list I would eject some works by definition and I would, naturally, reorder it. So, in answer to your question, and I think we agree, the list is bonkers


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## Lukecash12

Liszt's Dante Symphony is a masterfully written tone poem.


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## Polednice

Lukecash12 said:


> Liszt's Dante Symphony is a masterfully written tone poem.


Really?! The first movement is kind of fun, but I've always thought it's kind of dreadful. I think it's also a very useful example of Liszt's unimaginative orchestration. It's got nothing on Tchaikovsky's _Francesca da Rimini_!


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## Lukecash12

Polednice said:


> Really?! The first movement is kind of fun, but I've always thought it's kind of dreadful. I think it's also a very useful example of Liszt's unimaginative orchestration. It's got nothing on Tchaikovsky's _Francesca da Rimini_!


Who did you hear playing it? It may be that you heard it with an orchestra much larger than Liszt intended in his autograph scores.

Check out the scores, and I have an idea you wouldn't want to say that it's unimaginative. The sound world of his Dante Symphony is very sharp, with clear and incessant voices. His orchestration did violence to the pages, during the first movement, and sounded intimate and introspective like cellos and violins harmonizing in a quartet, in the later movements. If you think the first movement sounds pretty dark and dreary, just wait until you've got an album of it played with the proper ensemble.


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## Lukecash12

Here's an excerpt from another version of it by Liszt, that is more intimate and on-point.


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## Lukecash12

And the information on it from IMSLP, about the version published 1858-59 by Breitkopf and Hartel (Leipzig):



> *Work Title* Dante Symphony
> *Alternative Title* Eine Symphonie zu Dante's Divina Commedia / A Symphony to Dante's Divine Comedy
> *Composer* Liszt, Franz
> *Opus/Catalogue Number* S.109 ; LW.G14
> *Movements/Sections* 2 movements
> *Year/Date of Composition* 1855-56
> *First Performance* 7 November 1857, Dresden, the composer conducting
> *First Publication* 1859
> *Librettist* Luke 1:46, translated Jerome (ca.347-420)
> *Language* Latin
> *Dedication* Richard Wagner
> *Piece Style* Romantic
> *Instrumentation* Orchestra (2 flutes, piccolo, 2 oboes, cor anglais, 2 clarinets, bass clarinet, 2 bassoons, 4 horns, 2 trumpets, 3 trombones, tuba, timpani, cymbals, tam-tam, bass drum, 2 harps, strings, harmonium) and Chorus (SSAA).


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## LordBlackudder




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## Llyranor

For me, either St-Saens' Danse Macabre, or Rachmaninoff's Isle of the Dead.


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## Vesteralen

I heard a concert performance of Struass' Don Juan this year that really changed my mind about this piece. It's much more interesting than I ever thought.

For an out-of-the-mainstream recommendation, however, let me suggest:


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## Polednice

Hey, Lukecash. Luke. LUKE! Luke, I'm talking to you! HEY, LU- Yeah, hi.

Do you have any orchestral versions of the Dante Symphony you can recommend? You don't have to find a link; just let me know who.


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## starthrower

I suppose it's considered an old warhorse, but I like Borodin's In The Steppes Of Central Asia.


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## Lukecash12

Llyranor said:


> For me, either St-Saens' Danse Macabre, or Rachmaninoff's Isle of the Dead.


I get excited every time I hear the Isle of the Dead mentioned! You see, the Isle of the Dead is a challenge to a lot of people who don't take Rachmaninov seriously.


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## Lukecash12

Polednice said:


> Hey, Lukecash. Luke. LUKE! Luke, I'm talking to you! HEY, LU- Yeah, hi.
> 
> Do you have any orchestral versions of the Dante Symphony you can recommend? You don't have to find a link; just let me know who.


The Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra has a decent album to look into:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000002SCL/ref=cm_cr_asin_lnk

The string accompaniment is definitely an improvement on a lot of other recordings I've heard.

And here's a list of recordings with several sound samples in it:

http://www.amazon.com/Dante-Alterna..._m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0CG9WXFB5VPZ4XBX8ES7


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## MattTheTubaGuy

I have just been listening to Sibelius' Kullervo. Incredible!
I also really like the symphonic poems of Dvorak and Liszt.
Maybe there should be a top 100 symphonic/tone poem list here.


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## Oneiroi

I really love Vaughan Williams' "Oxford Elegy". Beautiful english poems set to wonderfully colored harmonies, not what you'd expect from a typical Vaughan Williams piece...sounds quite like Ravel I find.

I like to interpret the story as an allegory of an artist's life. The glimmer of hope at the very end is one of the most beautiful moments I've heard in music!


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## GoneBaroque

I thought I new most of RVW's music but this is a new discovery. Very lovely! thank you for posting it.


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## mtmailey

the one by dvorak that is called VODNIK is my favorite!!!


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## Polednice

mtmailey said:


> the one by dvorak that is called VODNIK is my favorite!!!


Excellent choice! His one called Polednice is my favourite, funnily enough.


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## Klavierspieler

Vaughan Williams - _In the Fen Country_


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## violadude

Polednice said:


> Excellent choice! His one called Polednice is my favourite, funnily enough.


Holy mother of pearl!! I had no idea your user name was an actual piece of music! :O Mind=blown.


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## Polednice

violadude said:


> Holy mother of pearl!! I had no idea your user name was an actual piece of music! :O Mind=blown.


Hahahaha! Yes!!! Dvorak Op. 108. <3


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## DeepR

There can be no discussion about this really. 











Also, too great to be in the "The Modern Classical Music Project" topic. These masterpieces shouldn't be associated with some of the drivel that is in there.


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## Lisztian

At this point, my favourite tone poems are _Les Preludes_ and _The Isle of the Dead_. However if we're going to include the _Dante Symphony_ as a tone poem, then it takes the cake.


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## maestro267

If Respighi's trilogy of Roman works count as tone poems, I'll include them among my favourites. Also, those of Richard Strauss (particularly Ein Heldenleben and Eine Alpensinfonie). I'm also starting to get into the tone poems of Arnold Bax.


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## aaroncopland

Honestly, Strauss is such an amazing composer and his autobiography is just so much fun to listen to. Ein Heldenleben quotes his own music and should have been made into a fantasia special by itself. Strauss's other tone poems are AMAZING too but Heldenleben is just awesome.


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## powerbooks

aaroncopland said:


> Honestly, Strauss is such an amazing composer and his autobiography is just so much fun to listen to. Ein Heldenleben quotes his own music and should have been made into a fantasia special by itself. Strauss's other tone poems are AMAZING too but Heldenleben is just awesome.


Was it Richard Strauss who said something like: "I may not be a first-rate composer, but I am a first-class second-rate composer"?


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## Ripvanwinkle

I am more of a traditionalist. Sibelius's Swan of Tuonela is my favorite. Absolutely beautiful.


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## powerbooks

Ripvanwinkle said:


> I am more of a traditionalist. Sibelius's Swan of Tuonela is my favorite. Absolutely beautiful.


And you can't take Mahler? Mahler's no. 1 is more "traditional" than Sibelius for sure!

(Sure I understand this might be apple to oranges in terms of symphony and symphonic poem, but you know my point.)


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## Ripvanwinkle

powerbooks said:


> And you can't take Mahler? Mahler's no. 1 is more "traditional" than Sibelius for sure!
> 
> (Sure I understand this might be apple to oranges in terms of symphony and symphonic poem, but you know my point.)


Sorry, I can't agree with that.


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## powerbooks

Ripvanwinkle said:


> Sorry, I can't agree with that.


No big deal. As I said, the comparison is not exactly the same: Apple to Orange!


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## Renaissance

Rachmaninoff's are pretty good, especially "Prince Rotislav" and "The Rock".


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde




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## BurningDesire

To me, a tone poem is a very vague term, and I don't think it should at all exclude suites. Besides, it is possible for a piece to fit several genres, or for genre to be pretty flexible. For instance, say we have a Mozart horn concerto, but its reduced to horn solo and a piano accompaniment, does this turn it into a horn sonata? Likewise say we take any violin sonata and we orchestrate the piano parts, does it become a concerto? Does Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony count as a tone poem, especially with its evocative titles for movements, and obvious portrayal of extra-musical images? Aren't ballets and incidental music very much like tone poems when you separate them from the artform they are paired with?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I prefer symphonic poems with no storyline. I like music that speaks for itself.


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## Toddlertoddy

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I prefer symphonic poems with no storyline. I like music that speaks for itself.


I thought the entire definition of a symphony poem revolves around the fact that it's based on some extramusical thing.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Toddlertoddy said:


> I thought the entire definition of a symphony poem revolves around the fact that it's based on some extramusical thing.


Yeah but **** that definition


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## BurningDesire

also symphonic poem should not be used interchangeably with "tone poem". Not all tone poems are for an orchestra. Ives' second piano sonata is a tone poem, and thats for solo piano (and viola in the first movement, flute in the fourth)


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## tahnak

Ripvanwinkle said:


> I am more of a traditionalist. Sibelius's Swan of Tuonela is my favorite. Absolutely beautiful.


Yes. If not the greatest tone poem, it is definitely Sibelius' greatest.
Manfred of Tchaikovsky is mine along with Romeo and Juliet.


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## BurningDesire

for my favorite tone poems, I'd have to go with Peter Tchaikovsky's Romeo and Juliet Fantasy-Overture, Modest Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition, Claude Debussy's Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun, Gustav Holst's The Planets, Charles Ives' Piano Sonata No. 2 "Concord, Massachusetts, 1840-1860" and The Unanswered Question, and Edgard Varese's Ameriques, at the moment.


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## southwood

Ripvanwinkle said:


> I am more of a traditionalist. Sibelius's Swan of Tuonela is my favorite. Absolutely beautiful.


Beautiful. Also Night Ride and Sunrise, En Saga, In Memoriam etc. What about Luonottar ? Is that a tone poem ? It's amazing. Nielsen did some good ones too e.g. Imaginary Journey to the Faroes.


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## Morgante

The my favourite tone poem is _Night on Bald Mountain_ by Mussorgskij.
And _Don Quixote_ by R. Strauss!

I forgot to mention _Sheherazade_ by Rimskij-Korsakov.


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## DeepR

I love Isle of the Dead and Night on the Bald Mountain as well. Still, they pale in comparison to the greatness, power, complexity and originality of Scriabin's symphonic poems (see my previous post). Out of these two I pick Prometheus: The Poem of Fire as my favorite.


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## Nadia

I love Gliere's Sirens and Liszt's Les Preludes.


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## Bas

I don't know if i quite have gotten the right criterium to qualify for a tone poem, but some works that come across my mind, and are of great beauty:


Haydn's Septem verba Cristi Cruce prolatis
For those of you that do not know this work: it is a pure instrumental piece (although Haydn edited it to an oratorium eventually) that has nine pieces, an introduction, a finale and one piece for every last word of Jesus Christ according to the four gospels*:

Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing. 
Today you will be with me in paradise. 
Women, behold, thy son. Son, behold, thy mother. (To Mary and John) 
My Lord, My Lord why have you forsaken me.
I thirst.
It is finished.
Father in Thy hand I command Your spirit.

All pieces in this great work of Hayd'n are in minor and he still managed to made it a work - in musical sense - that is very multifaceted, and interesting to listen to. He must have been quite satisfied himself with the work: he made it into an oratorium version, a string quartet and even a solo keys version...

 Janáček "Kreutzer Sonata"

This is again a instrumental piece (quite a lot of dissonance, however I do like it a lot). It kinda expresses a pain that I almost can feel, when I listen to it. Actually, I'm quite curious if Composer of Avantgarde and the other Ligetti lovers like this piece )

For as far as the poem part, text part is concerned: it is based upon a novel by Leo Tolstoj.


* I did the best I could in making the right translations to English 'Bible language', for I only know the Bible a bit in Latin and I read it in my mother language Dutch, of course.


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## Very Senior Member

Bas said:


> I don't know if i quite have gotten the right criterium to qualify for a tone poem, but some works that come across my mind, and are of great beauty:
> 
> ...


Neither of the two works you refer is a tone poem.

A tone poem, or as they are more often called, a "symphonic poem", originated with Franz Liszt around 1850. He wrote 13 in total, including works like Tasso, Orpheus. Prometheus, From the Crade to the Grave. The specfic musical form he created evolved out of the stand-alone concert overture. Mostly, tone poems are orchestral works of one movement only, although some chamber works have been so described, e.g. Schoenberg's Verklärte Nacht.

The essential feature of a tone poem is that it is programmatic as opposed to absolute music. That is, it has something pretty obvious about it which links them to a non-musical thing like a painting, novel, landscape, poem, etc. The actual sound of the work is meant to evocative of that extra-musical thing, whatever it may be, e.g. a flute immitating a bird song. The main composers of tone poems, apart from Liszt, were Dvorak, Tchaikovsky, Smetana, Sibelius, Mussorgsky, Richard Straus, Respighi, and Borodin.

The Haydn work you refer is the very famous "Seven Last Words". This was origiinally written in 1786 as an orchestral piece, and forms Hob 20. The following year it was transformed by Haydn into what is now the much more popular, and shorter, string quartet version, Op 51, which appears in Hob 3. Around 1795, during a trip to London, Haydn produced a choral version. Some time later there was even a piano version organised by his publishers which was not written by Haydn but which Haydn nevetheless approved. As far as I'm aware, none of these versions of the Seven Last Words has ever been considered to be a tone poem. The construction and general sound simply do not fit the normal understanding of the term, quite apart from the fact that they're some 60-70 years too soon.

Also, Janáček's "Kreutzer Sonata, alias String Quartet No 1, is not generally regarded as being a tone poem. Agreed that it was inspired by a novel by Tolstoy, but it is not programmtic in nature, and in fact sounds very much like bog-standard absolute music. Nor is his String Quartet No 2, "Intimate Letters", a tone poem, even though that work was inspired by his long friendship with a much younger married woman and was intended to reflect the contents of several hundred letters they exchanged with each other. Again it is essentially absolute music, such that the background to its inspiration is not apparent from the form.

Many of the best-known tone poems are listed on the DDD site. For a few others, and for further details about their history, it's very easily Googlable.


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## jani

What really determines a tone poem i know all this stuff " A symphonic poem or tone poem is a piece of orchestral music in a single continuous section (a movement) in which the content of a poem, a story or novel, a painting, a landscape or another (non-musical) source is illustrated or evoked. "
But what kinda forms/form tone poems use?!?!


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## MorrisMinor

Richard Strauss' Alpine Symphony. Fantastic!


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## moody

BurningDesire said:


> To me, a tone poem is a very vague term, and I don't think it should at all exclude suites. Besides, it is possible for a piece to fit several genres, or for genre to be pretty flexible. For instance, say we have a Mozart horn concerto, but its reduced to horn solo and a piano accompaniment, does this turn it into a horn sonata? Likewise say we take any violin sonata and we orchestrate the piano parts, does it become a concerto? Does Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony count as a tone poem, especially with its evocative titles for movements, and obvious portrayal of extra-musical images? Aren't ballets and incidental music very much like tone poems when you separate them from the artform they are paired with?


I suppose it might possibly depend on how the composer described the piece,


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## moody

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I prefer symphonic poems with no storyline. I like music that speaks for itself.


Then it's not a tone poem.


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## moody

tahnak said:


> Yes. If not the greatest tone poem, it is definitely Sibelius' greatest.
> Manfred of Tchaikovsky is mine along with Romeo and Juliet.


Manfred is a symphony.


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## drpraetorus

How about these?

The Hebrides, Mendelssohn (I once heard this pronounced "He-brides)
Tamara, Balakierev
Nymphs, Kalinninkov
The Enchanted Lake, Liadov
1812 Overture. Tchaikovsky
Any Wagnerian excerpt/overture. (I know, technically not tone poems but still very evocative.)
Festive Overture by Shostakovitch (His "farewell" to Stalin)
Capricio Espaniol by Rinsky-Korsakov
Russian Easter Overture by Rimsky-Korsakov
Jubilee by Chadwick (it's on the edge of tone poem)
Symphony Fantastique by Berlioz
Simphonia Antarctica by Vaughn Williams

From looking at the list it seems the compiler flunked Music 101. What were they thinking? They left out The Sorcerers Apprentice. Schmendricks!

Worst Tone Poem Ever: Wellingtons Victory by Beethoven


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## moody

drpraetorus said:


> How about these?
> 
> The Hebrides, Mendelssohn (I once heard this pronounced "He-brides)
> Tamara, Balakierev
> Nymphs, Kalinninkov
> The Enchanted Lake, Liadov
> 1812 Overture. Tchaikovsky
> Any Wagnerian excerpt/overture. (I know, technically not tone poems but still very evocative.)
> Festive Overture by Shostakovitch (His "farewell" to Stalin)
> Capricio Espaniol by Rinsky-Korsakov
> Russian Easter Overture by Rimsky-Korsakov
> Jubilee by Chadwick (it's on the edge of tone poem)
> Symphony Fantastique by Berlioz
> Simphonia Antarctica by Vaughn Williams
> 
> From looking at the list it seems the compiler flunked Music 101. What were they thinking? They left out The Sorcerers Apprentice. Schmendricks!
> 
> Worst Tone Poem Ever: Wellingtons Victory by Beethoven


Wellingtons Victory is better than 1812,if you get the famous Dorati version that is--but it's not a tone poem.
Neither is 1812, Symphony Fantastique, Symphonia Antarctica(you will find the craftily hidden clue in the fact that they're both labelled as symphony !).
In fact the only possible contenders are 2,3, and 4 in your list.
Can this be a dream--I've happily gone though 66 years of knowing what a tone poem is and now this nonsense descends!


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## MorrisMinor

A tone poem is essentially a piece of music (no sung words) that refers to, or attempts to relay, something non-musical. Therefore it could be argued that Symphony Fantastique is a tone poem: just because it is in symphonic form does not stop it being a tone poem. Music is music, and therefore is without limits or boundaries: for example in mozarts time, Berlioz' symphony would not even have been classed as a symphony. Mendelssohn's 2nd is a Cantata, as is Mahler's 8th. It is narrow-minded to say 'this isn't a tone poem because it is a symphony. Why can it not be both? Vivaldi's Seasons could be viewed as an early form of tone poem...


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## moody

MorrisMinor said:


> A tone poem is essentially a piece of music (no sung words) that refers to, or attempts to relay, something non-musical. Therefore it could be argued that Symphony Fantastique is a tone poem: just because it is in symphonic form does not stop it being a tone poem. Music is music, and therefore is without limits or boundaries: for example in Mozarts time, Berlioz' symphony would not even have been classed as a symphony. Mendelssohn's 2nd is a Cantata, as is Mahler's 8th. It is narrow-minded to say 'this isn't a tone poem because it is a symphony. Why can it not be both? Vivaldi's Seasons could be viewed as an early form of tone poem...


I don't think that it is up to the individual to re-classify pieces of music except in their own heads.
A tone poem should be in one continuos movement.
Berlioz' work would have probably caused everyone to run out of the door In Mozart's time. It caused enough commotion in Berlioz' time.
If you can show me a sleeve or concert programme that calls this music a tone poem, then I'll give way.


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## Very Senior Member

MorrisMinor said:


> It is narrow-minded to say 'this isn't a tone poem because it is a symphony. Why can it not be both? Vivaldi's Seasons could be viewed as an early form of tone poem...


Symphonie Fantastique is normally regarded as a programmatic symphony. It is not considered to be a tone poem since it comprises 5 movements, each of which is an integral part of the whole, as the idée fixe is picked up and developed at various times throughout its entire length.


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## Wandering

Very Senior Member said:


> Symphonie Fantastique is normally regarded as a programmatic symphony. It is not considered to be a tone poem since it comprises 5 movements, each of which is an integral part of the whole, as the idée fixe is picked up and developed at various times throughout its entire length.


Yes. The Beethoven's 6th is the first symphony as programme music. Berlioz's 'SF' greatly influenced Liszt's conception, and the 'fixed idea' influenced Wagner's lietmotiv.

As far as tone poems, I love the Mazeppa Waltz orchestral version performed by Karajan, not many accounts of the orch. version available on record. I absolutely love it, he was quite an orchestrator. Whether or not it is considered one of his tone poems or symphonic poems I don't know, but the orginal piano works are probably programmatic.


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## Lisztian

Clovis said:


> Yes. The Beethoven's 6th is the first symphony as programme music. Berlioz's 'SF' greatly influenced Liszt's conception, and the 'fixed idea' influenced Wagner's lietmotiv.
> 
> As far as tone poems, I love the Mazeppa Waltz orchestral version performed by Karajan, not many accounts of the orch. version available on record. I absolutely love it, he was quite an orchestrator. Whether or not it is considered one of his tone poems or symphonic poems I don't know, but the orginal piano works are probably programmatic.


I'm not sure if you mean the first Mephisto Waltz (one of the two Episodes from Lenau's Faust) or the officially categorized tone poem 'Mazeppa,' or something different entirely. Both of them are symphonic poems, just the Mephisto doesn't have the official designation, and yes the Mephisto is programmatic.


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## Wandering

Lisztian said:


> I'm not sure if you mean the first Mephisto Waltz (one of the two Episodes from Lenau's Faust) or the officially categorized tone poem 'Mazeppa,' or something different entirely. Both of them are symphonic poems, just the Mephisto doesn't have the official designation, and yes the Mephisto is programmatic.


I'd meant the Mephisto Waltz, thank you for the correction. I like Liszt's Mazeppa also, reminds me quite a bit of Valkyrie.


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## gabem

Finlandia all the way. No doubt my favorite.


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## jani

gabem said:


> Finlandia all the way. No doubt my favorite.


Yeah, Luonnotar is very good too!


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