# Will originality in music eventually become impossible? Is it already impossible?



## farmerjohn (Jan 24, 2013)

Okay, playing devil's advocate here:

There is the saying that "there is nothing new under the sun".

Apparently, Schubert said after hearing Beethoven's string quartet 14 "after this, what is left for us to write?"
200 years on from Schubert saying that I wonder what is left to write now?

Have we reached a point or will we reach a point where everything there is to say has already been said more or less and thereafter any "new" music will basically be repeating or paraphrasing what has already been done before?

Or do you believe composers will come along in the future who are so original that they herald a revolution in music comparable to that brought about by Beethoven?

Would it be true to say that we have exhausted the possibilities of those twelve notes or would that just show a lack of imagination?

I realise any talk of the future is highly speculative but I would be interested to hear what people think.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Being original with new classical music is not as important as not alienating listeners, that's what I think. Old classical music was full of original and not original of course and it's already only listened to by a minority of the general population - us members here! Being original is good but being relevant to listeners in our times is even more important.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

We're not even close to running out of ways to explore music or any other art. 

What about microtones? I don't feel enough people are exploring that, and we have the technology to make it fairly easy now. If our entire common practice era was moved along by voice leading primarily because a half step of the 7th interval wants to resolve itself toward the root and so forth, how much more powerful would voice leading be if there were even smaller intervals than a half step? What eerie sonorities can arise from it?

What about interactive music? We already have music for video games for example, that smoothly evolves based on what action or tension or mood or environment is in the game by using clever compositional techniques that make these transitions seamless. We also have the ability to control devices such as a computer cursor using alpha wave sensing headbands. You've probably seen these demonstrations in science museums where two people try to move a little device toward each others' goals simply by using their brain waves. The adults have trouble, but a lot of kids are already good at it. Why not combine these two ideas and create compositions that smoothly evolve based on the mood or will of the listener(s), either by changing the sheet music that appears on the musicians' monitors or by combining recorded versions if it is an interactive recording.

I have yet to hear very much in the way of non-traditional instruments used in an art music context. What about more concertos for electric guitar? The electric guitar doesn't have to be played at god slaying decibel levels. It really is one of the most expressive instruments ever created in my opinion -- far more expressive than the violin, and it sounds completely different in each performer's hands. Tone is largely determined by equipment, but it is also in the touch. I want concertos for electric guitar, concertos for synthesizer, suites for banjo and orchestra, trio sonatas for piano, tone wheel organ and Chapman stick.

I can't imagine why anyone could think we would ever run dry. I want composers to get their heads out of their -- academies.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Impossibilities in art arise only from a stultified imagination and a lack of understanding of the self. I firmly believe that originality of expression will always be the case if the artist is true to themselves, and that that is what is important in all art.


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## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

In the world of pop, I have read a number of articles in recent years stating quite clearly that there is a genuine limit to originality and that these limits are slowly being approached - as witnessed by the increasing number of artists suing for copyright infringement. It seems logical that this should eventually apply to classical as well. No?


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

I wonder what kind of originality may occur in Painting. As there is a strong connection between Painting and Music with the style and philosophy they use to define and create new arts.


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## Mephistopheles (Sep 3, 2012)

It depends what you mean by originality - technically, because music is based on mathematics, the possibilities are literally infinite.


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## Hausmusik (May 13, 2012)

People have been saying there was nothing new to say in classical music since there was classical music. Beethoven said something of the sort after first hearing Mozart's 24th piano concerto, and Schubert after hearing one of Beethoven's late string quartets, etc., and both went on to find new things to say.


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## Stargazer (Nov 9, 2011)

I personally think that many artists place far too much importance on originality. I say that as long as it sounds good, and isn't a plagiarism of an existing work, then it's good enough! I think that while there are few limits on originality, there are indeed definable limits on originality that actually sounds good!

To give an example, I'm a big fan of the blues. However, since the 60s, much of the blues music has not really changed at all, and some of the exact same songs have been rehashed hundreds of times by different artists....a lot of it doesn't sound original in the least. But that doesn't mean any of it is any less enjoyable to listen to, or that any of the blues artists are any less talented, and each artist puts their own personal touches on the genre and the songs.

That said though, I will say that a total and blatant lack of creativity is no good either obviously. This is kind of obvious in the movie industry nowadays...do we REALLY need a 35th movie explaining the origins of Spider Man??


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

KRoad said:


> In the world of pop, I have read a number of articles in recent years stating quite clearly that there is a genuine limit to originality and that these limits are slowly being approached - as witnessed by the increasing number of artists suing for copyright infringement. It seems logical that this should eventually apply to classical as well. No?


There are also the studies saying that pop music has become increasingly homogenized, with fewer types of chord movements used. It's no surprise that if you limit yourself so severely, you'll run into repetition before long. Art music has been renewing itself for centuries, and it doesn't seem to be slowing down now.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

The pursuit of 'originality' can become part of the problem. If there's nothing new under the sun, then something "original" is unrecogniseable, and therefore can be something which puts listeners off...


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## stanchinsky (Nov 19, 2012)

As far as harmony is concerned I believe we have just about reached our limits. The 20th century marked an era in which atonality pushed harmony to the extreme. That doesn't mean that were going to run out of music though. I've heard newer music that does sound really fresh and original, unlike pop music which as others have already pointed out, relies on cliché and predictable harmonic and melodic devices. Also we have to be fair to modern composers. It's many times more difficult in todays world to do something totally original, don't forget there was a time when using a simple 6/4 chord was considered incorrect and unstable. C.P.E Bach if I remember correctly, is credited for legitimizing the usage of the 6/4 chord something, that was going to happen _eventually_. While this is an innovation it's sort of an easy one. The point I'm trying to make is that it was way easier to 300 hundred years ago to be inventive in almost every aspect of western music. I like the idea of exploring microtonality, though I'm not so sure I'll enjoy the results.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

The elevation of harmony is probably a legacy of a period of music that must've ended by now. These days it seems to me that perhaps rhythm and timbre are the main areas of exploration.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

One of the greatest problems that composers have today is to say something original without alienating their audience. I remember the conductor Hans Vonk saying in a pre-concert talk that he believed that so many composers had completely lost touch with their audience.


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## palJacky (Nov 27, 2010)

I don't judge a work by its 'originality', its 'intention', or any of that stuff.
I judge it on the connection it makes with my psyche.
If something connects with my Psyche in a way nothing has before. That is terrific, it might even make it 'original'.
I think the ability to make a connection with the 'audience' is what makes a great composer. 
the great composers do not have to worry about connecting with an audience.
That is part of their innate ability. They just do connect with an audience.
They are able to communicate through music something that only music can communicate.

If that ability to connect is not in a piece of music, I don't care how original it is.
Instead of listening to it, I might as well take a nap.


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## ScipioAfricanus (Jan 7, 2010)

as long as we have differing personalities, there will be originality.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Originality might eventually become impossible since the ear (and brain) can only sense a finite number of discreet tones at a finite frequency. But I assume the thread is concerned more with periods of hundreds of years and not billions or more. 

The modern era has given rise to more originality than ever before. Change in classical music has exploded. There certainly seems to be a lot of new work being done now. 

With the advent of electronic music, composers have been freed of the need to tie music to the available musical instruments and the ability of performers. They can explore timbres never produced before and combinations of those timbres. They can explore mixtures of sound that enormously expand what we have ever heard. One interesting question is whether there are large "areas" of this "musical space" that humans will basically not enjoy. I'm not saying that no one would ever enjoy them but rather that composers won't find them useful/interesting to explore. I feel we're a long way from knowing the answer to that question, and therefore, we're a long way from reaching the limits of originality.


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> There are also the studies saying that pop music has become increasingly homogenized, with fewer types of chord movements used. It's no surprise that if you limit yourself so severely, you'll run into repetition before long. Art music has been renewing itself for centuries, and it doesn't seem to be slowing down now.


Mahlerian, that reminds me of this...

http://www.hooktheory.com/blog/i-an...ular-songs-for-patterns-this-is-what-i-found/


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Novelette said:


> Mahlerian, that reminds me of this...
> 
> http://www.hooktheory.com/blog/i-an...ular-songs-for-patterns-this-is-what-i-found/


That site's good for a laugh. I'm all for people learning music theory and how it relates to what they hear, no matter what kind of music it is. But that article is so far off-base as to be appalling. All of their "analyses" (at the time) were done as if songs were in the major. That's why not all songs have a I chord in them. Like I said, it's nice to teach people something about theory through avenues they're familiar with (see below), but not nice to mislead them into thinking they're learning something about how music works when they aren't.

This one is even worse:
http://www.hooktheory.com/blog/in-d...-reports-of-its-death-are-greatly-exaggerated

This study of The Beatles' songs is much more theoretically sound, and I think it would teach any person raised on pop/rock something about how music works.
http://www.icce.rug.nl/~soundscapes/DATABASES/AWP/awp-notes_on.shtml


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## SturmUndDrang (Jan 31, 2013)

...........


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

SturmUndDrang said:


> No. Originality is still very possible. The problem is that so many of us have become conditioned to perceive it in a monolithic sense. We've been programmed by modernist and other propaganda to largely equate originality with novelty - this or that "new" technique or even audacious stunt. I believe that if we can get ourselves to see the bigger picture - that lasting, pervasive change is often gradual and slow, and often first traced to serving some practical purpose (like the beginnings of Western notation) - we'll be in a better position to recognize originality when we see it. I like the quote by Ralph Vaughan Williams (I may be paraphrasing slightly): "Don't try to be original. If you have anything original to say, it will happen without trying." In short, we're too conscious of "being original." I'd like to see us move back to a situation where originality occurred under the auspices of service and accountability to someone/something outside the individual composer. Bach, Haydn, Handel, and even Mozart were private or public servants, and we're still living with their subtle forms of originality. Actually, I see that we are slowly moving toward that model. In my opinion, many of the really "original" and dynamic things happening in music are happening in media (film, video games) music - where "originality" is a by-product of composing within very circumscribed limitations.


I have no idea whether you're right or not but this is a fine first post!


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> That site's good for a laugh. I'm all for people learning music theory and how it relates to what they hear, no matter what kind of music it is. But that article is so far off-base as to be appalling. All of their "analyses" (at the time) were done as if songs were in the major. That's why not all songs have a I chord in them. Like I said, it's nice to teach people something about theory through avenues they're familiar with (see below), but not nice to mislead them into thinking they're learning something about how music works when they aren't.[/url]


Yeah, I take those "analyses" with a huge grain of salt. Still, the point is surely correct about homogenization of rock music. =\


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## Hausmusik (May 13, 2012)

science, for some reason it has been redacted now--?


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I don't know if this story about the time when Brahms and Mahler met at a laskeside resort in Austria is true, but "Se non e vero, e ben trovato ". 
Here's how it goes : Brahms and Mahler were having a conversation at the resort beside a lake .
The older composer was near the end of his life and stated gloomily that there was nowhere for music to go .
Mahler replied "Look at the lake - there goes the last wave " !


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Hausmusik said:


> science, for some reason it has been redacted now--?


Well... it _was_ a fine first post. He or she must be coming up with something even better!


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

Originality cannot become impossible I believe.
Look at we humans, we are all basically copies of each other but it's the _detail_ which gives us our individuality and it is the individuality that we value.
Every great composer has a distinctive 'voice' which becomes apparent in spite of themselves. Even when they use the age old method of learning their craft, namely imitating their predecessors. Also within one composer's ouvre each new piece needn't be original, just individual or distinctive and have a _degree _of uniqueness.
What is it that makes one of Bach's preludes different from another? If number 1 of the 48 was original, was number 20 or number 45 equally original? In the detail, yes. In the general concept, in the structure, in the types of figuration and harmony, not really.
How similar is a Schumann piano trio to a Beethoven? They are very similar yet so very different.

Is it impossible to write an original story or novel? There are only a few themes; love, death, jealosy, revenge, etc. And there are only 26 letters in the alphabet and a few thousand words yet next month a new and original book will be published.

Pop music illustrates this very well. It uses very very restricted collection of chords/harmony and melodic shapes yet does Irving Berlin sound like Burt Bacherach or Elton John or Alicia Keys. Does Punk sound like Rockabilly?

It's all about the detail and also about *musical context*. Putting old sounds together in new ways.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

The next simple ditty not wholly like the last simple ditty answers your question.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

PetrB said:


> The next simple ditty not wholly like the last simple ditty answers your question.


You talkin to me?


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

It is totally impossible. o3o its all been derivative since Pope Gregory took credit for the work of anonymous monk composers. I don't know why I bother writing anything :O

Real answer: nope, and to ask such a question is silly ^^


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Petwhac said:


> You talkin to me?


Desperately -- to anyone who thinks the possibility of the probability of what pitches are used in what manner + the variable of rhythm are all 'just about to run out.'


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## SturmUndDrang (Jan 31, 2013)

"Nothing in all art is so painful as unsuccessful originality. It is like the twisted grimaces of vanity. We see the spirit everywhere. Some of us know it, but have no word for it; we exchange looks and shudder, like children at the sight of a skeleton. We see it in houses, paintings, statues, music; and most of all where artists have wanted to express strong emotion. Joy howls, Cupid squirms and writhes, mirth is stylized on stilts, and sorrow and grief look like the mask of some sphinx with great hollow eyes. This is what happens when a man of insufficient talent tries to be original and do things for which he has neither the feeling nor the powers. Oh you artists, see how Albrecht Dürer painted a blade of grass, how Schubert composed a little song! Learn that the smallest shall be the greatest; that two colours, three notes, two right-angles and a circle sufficed for the man who found delight as a humble servant of art!.....Are we to return to something old then? By no means. We should cease to reckon with either old or new. But woe to the musician who does not have his eyes about him; who fails alike to learn and love the good things in the old masters and to watch and be ready for the new that may come in a totally different form from what we expected."---Carl Nielsen, from "The Fullness of Time" (1925)


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

SturmUndDrang said:


> "Nothing in all art is so painful as unsuccessful originality. It is like the twisted grimaces of vanity. We see the spirit everywhere. Some of us know it, but have no word for it; we exchange looks and shudder, like children at the sight of a skeleton. We see it in houses, paintings, statues, music; and most of all where artists have wanted to express strong emotion. Joy howls, Cupid squirms and writhes, mirth is stylized on stilts, and sorrow and grief look like the mask of some sphinx with great hollow eyes. This is what happens when a man of insufficient talent tries to be original and do things for which he has neither the feeling nor the powers. Oh you artists, see how Albrecht Dürer painted a blade of grass, how Schubert composed a little song! Learn that the smallest shall be the greatest; that two colours, three notes, two right-angles and a circle sufficed for the man who found delight as a humble servant of art!.....Are we to return to something old then? By no means. We should cease to reckon with either old or new. But woe to the musician who does not have his eyes about him; who fails alike to learn and love the good things in the old masters and to watch and be ready for the new that may come in a totally different form from what we expected."---Carl Nielsen, from "The Fullness of Time" (1925)


Wow, its like Nielson was attempting to give Stravinsky a run for his money in terms of saying stupid crap.


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## SturmUndDrang (Jan 31, 2013)

BurningDesire said:


> Wow, its like Nielson was attempting to give Stravinsky a run for his money in terms of saying stupid crap.


Rhetorical flourishes aside, the gist of what Nielsen is saying makes a whole lot of sense to me.


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## BeverlyAnne (Feb 2, 2013)

ArtMusic said:


> Being original with new classical music is not as important as not alienating listeners, that's what I think. Old classical music was full of original and not original of course and it's already only listened to by a minority of the general population - us members here! Being original is good but being relevant to listeners in our times is even more important.


I could not agree more. I'm not so sure it's an issue of "alienation" as much as widening the scope of classical (and may I add Big Band into the mix) music so it is more a part of the mainstream then it currently is today. Where I live-the Canadian Prairies-with the exception of a 4 hour block on the CBC during daytime M-F, there are no classical stations. Just one rock/pop/country/newstalk station after another. Sadly I have to rely on my shortwave radio, my radio stations included in my cable package and the internet. And then only after much diligent searching on my part. But I know there are people out there, like my aunt and uncle who love Andre Rieu, who would gladly listen to classical as a first choice if it was more readily available than it is now.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

BeverlyAnne said:


> I could not agree more. I'm not so sure it's an issue of "alienation" as much as widening the scope of classical (and may I add Big Band into the mix) music so it is more a part of the mainstream then it currently is today. Where I live-the Canadian Prairies-with the exception of a 4 hour block on the CBC during daytime M-F, there are no classical stations. Just one rock/pop/country/newstalk station after another. Sadly I have to rely on my shortwave radio, my radio stations included in my cable package and the internet. And then only after much diligent searching on my part. But I know there are people out there, like my aunt and uncle who love Andre Rieu, who would gladly listen to classical as a first choice if it was more readily available than it is now.


Can you and your aunt and uncle not get a good internet connection? Practically every piece of music ever written is available on *youtube*.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

inspiration and originality go hand in hand, like dominoes tipping one another on and on and on. So my answer to the original question is no, it won't run out, although the end product might sound very different in the future. But then the world will be very different and people's expectations will be as well.


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