# Panoramas of Brazil



## aussiebushman (Apr 21, 2018)

How can one listen to the music of Villa-Lobos without decrying the rape and pillage of Brazil in general and the Amazon in particular over the last hundred years? 

Many critics accused Villa-Lobos of extravagance and formlessness, also his failure to revise and correct completed works, resulting in miscalculations, impracticalities, imprecise notations and specification of instruments. However, these issues, as least for me, in no way reduce the delight in listening to his music, much of which seems to embody the visions of pristine jungle, vast plains,beaches and mountains 

Anyone relatively unfamiliar with his music might start with the Bachianas Brasileiras - the full work, not just the popular number 5. The piano concertos also showcase his brilliant inventiveness and my favorite recording features Christina Ortiz on Decca 452 617-2 

If I were younger, I would make it a quest to eliminate Bolsonaro (known as "the Trump of the South") and his thugs to help preserve Brazil before it is too late


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Much as I agree with your political view I don't see its link to the music of Villa-Lobos. So many countries have awful governments doing awful things at the moment (things that would have been unthinkable 15 years ago) - take Italy as an example, or even the way my country (Britain) is going - and we should certainly stand up against what they are doing if we can. But this is about our humanity rather than being just because we love the music of a composer who comes from that country! I do get, though, that you are regretting the passing of an age and the ushering in of a far less attractive one. That makes me sad, too. But I do wonder if it isn't a feature of old age - regret at seeing the world that we knew (and were active in) passing.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Yes China has moved in with huge illuminati money to finish off what europe and the USA left, Both EU and the USQA left scraps and the chinese are picking the bones off the carcass
EU/USA were like unto Eagles violating the land, the chinese are the vultures finishing off the remains of the carcass.
In 100 yrs when the entire forest is gone, you'll see the GW results in massive droughts, and rains like in Noah's time . 
Its only a matter of time. 
Note the entire Monsoon season in the US southwest, nil, nada, bone dry =,,= serious long term issues ahead for LA. 
Bone dry monsoon means what?
Yep a super size wet winter = *ahh I will be a bit late for work,,having trouble with this blizzard as i am stuck on the road, with low gas, no food,,,,death awaits me...+* senario's played out over and over. Kids can not go to school, weeee more play time,,,businesses will close, as customers only thought is survival, not shopping, or restaurants. The west is a place you only want to visit, not live. 
all thanks to the *developed* countries in pillaging the tropics.


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## lucasand (Jan 24, 2013)

Brazilian guy here! Long time member, I’ve been almost in the reading mode, but I can’t resist this. I HATE Bolsonaro with all my guts. I’m a math teacher at public school for the last 25 years. I consired myself a reasonable person and I hate all this anger I feel every single day because of this idiot and his sons. You guys outside Brazil have no ideia the damage done on a daily basis. I feel for the worst. 

This bunch has no respect at all regarding arts, culture, science, the Law, our history, our resources... 

Sorry to use this space for this but I want to make clear that this moron represents only a third of our population.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

and the USA maintains relations with brazil and china, even knowing very well the complete destruction both agents of mafia are perpetrating upon the virgin forests. 
The USA is in that scheme to destroy brazil as well.


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## lucasand (Jan 24, 2013)

Indeed. With all due respect but we have our sovereignity. Brazil, US and any other country has a culture of partnership not submission to US, our diplomacy was respected for years! BTW, Bolsonaro’s dream is to put his son, Eduardo, as ambassador in Washington. Good luck to us all. His English is waaay worst than mine and I’m not that good!


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

lucasand said:


> Brazilian guy here! Long time member, I've been almost in the reading mode, but I can't resist this. I HATE Bolsonaro with all my guts. I'm a math teacher at public school for the last 25 years. I consired myself a reasonable person and I hate all this anger I feel every single day because of this idiot and his sons. You guys outside Brazil have no ideia the damage done on a daily basis. I feel for the worst.
> 
> This bunch has no respect at all regarding arts, culture, science, the Law, our history, our resources...
> 
> Sorry to use this space for this but I want to make clear that this moron represents only a third of our population.


.

Hauntingly familiar situation here in the USA. You are Not Alone........

P.S.: The BBs are all well worth hearing!


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## aussiebushman (Apr 21, 2018)

Folks - I am staggered at the positive responses to my rant, though acknowledging it reflects only one side of the argument. Little will change the ignorance and fundamental greed driving the rape and destruction until it is too late.

Re Enthusiast's comment about the apparent lack of any link between the issue and Villa-Lobos, I respectfully disagree. Though it does not have to have any direct bearing on the ecology per se, surely a vision created by the music is a major factor in creating awareness and empathy of what existed at the time of composition, despite "Program music" usually being sneered upon.

Villa-Lobos is not alone in this representation of nature. Listen. for example, to Tapiola. or the Sibelius 2nd and 7th symphonies without visualising the vistas of the European North. Or Smetana's evocation of the Moldau, much of Mahler's music and certainly not the least I can recall here, several works of Janacek including the forest scenes in "The cunning little Vixen"

Don't shoot me - I'm just the emotive type!


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

This tragic loss of the amazon rain forest is something we should all feel, as our personal loss. 
man lives on earth, as earth is destroyed so too we should feel that pain , suffering , loss, Which is why the music of Allan pettersson appeals so much to me, Yet his music is often cast as *depressive, dark, self centered* and so on , so forth. 
Yet from the 1st minute i heard his sounds, i knew immediately this is the music I have been seeking, searching all my life. 
For me at least, his music reflects the destruction being perpetrated by man , upon the natural world, past 200+ years. His 12th sym was written for all those who have been murdered by notorious military dictators would wide, including the French militia against the inhabitants of Algeria.
The amazonian natives are being pushed to the brink of homeless. .


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## aussiebushman (Apr 21, 2018)

Paul - I owe you one - big time! I was totally unaware of Pettersson until you added your post here. I'm currently listening to his 8th symphony on Youtube but I'm not yet far enough into it to gain an overall impression. Love the first movement though

Your comments on YouTube are very interesting, namely:

"No composer in history has come close to scoreing syms with this emotional intensity , dynamics, , full of meaning for modern man;s lost soul. Yet how few know his music. Pettersson , the greatest symphonist in history . . . "

You might consider the last part of that statement to be just a little bit over the top, considering several others that come to mind - Shostakovich, Mahler, Bruckner, Rachmaninov, Lutoslavski, Gorecki and Joseph Ryelandt, perhaps even Gliere just to name a few. Also, that is not including Elgar, Sibelius and many others!

Regardless, thank you for the introduction


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

lucasand said:


> Brazilian guy here! Long time member, I've been almost in the reading mode, but I can't resist this. I HATE Bolsonaro with all my guts. I'm a math teacher at public school for the last 25 years. I consired myself a reasonable person and I hate all this anger I feel every single day because of this idiot and his sons. You guys outside Brazil have no ideia the damage done on a daily basis. I feel for the worst.
> 
> This bunch has no respect at all regarding arts, culture, science, the Law, our history, our resources...
> 
> Sorry to use this space for this but I want to make clear that this moron represents only a third of our population.


Welcome, great post. Definitely stick around and post some more if ever you are able to!

This is definitely a situation, as Strange Magic has said, that we Americans understand and can relate far too well. If this moron represents even 1/3 of your people, that is still a shocking number. I'm sorry to say it, but your new president makes Trump look like a saint.

Anyway, I highly doubt this thread will remain open long. Not all that much musical discussion going on here.



aussiebushman said:


> Paul - I owe you one - big time! I was totally unaware of Pettersson until you added your post here. I'm currently listening to his 8th symphony on Youtube but I'm not yet far enough into it to gain an overall impression. Love the first movement though
> 
> Your comments on YouTube are very interesting, namely:
> 
> ...


Props for naming two of the great Polish symphonists Lutoslawski and Górecki. I have been very into both of them lately. Pettersson is one I'm still working on!


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

aussiebushman said:


> Re Enthusiast's comment about the apparent lack of any link between the issue and Villa-Lobos, I respectfully disagree. Though it does not have to have any direct bearing on the ecology per se, surely a vision created by the music is a major factor in creating awareness and empathy of what existed at the time of composition, despite "Program music" usually being sneered upon.
> 
> Villa-Lobos is not alone in this representation of nature. Listen. for example, to Tapiola. or the Sibelius 2nd and 7th symphonies without visualising the vistas of the European North. Or Smetana's evocation of the Moldau, much of Mahler's music and certainly not the least I can recall here, several works of Janacek including the forest scenes in "The cunning little Vixen"
> 
> Don't shoot me - I'm just the emotive type!


Fair enough and I am certainly with the main thrust of your post!


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## lucasand (Jan 24, 2013)

Thanks, buddy! I’ll try to post more. Classical music has been my safe place even more in these dark days. After the elections I disappeared from internet but all this negative news in Brazil made me resume my YouTube project about classical music for sanity’s sake. It’s been good to read this forum, to listen to music even more and to produce videos.

Talking about music, local classical music radio stations play lots of Villa-Lobos and other brazilian guys. Thirty years listen to them and I still get amused! 

P.S.: Pettersson! Wow, time to listening to him again! Thanks for bring him to the table, guys!


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I'm not one to mix a composer who died in 1959 with current political issues, but I certainly enjoy the music of Villa-Lobos. He and Jobim, for me, make a grand statement about Brazil, and if their particular worlds are now disintegrating, it is indeed a shame. Still, we have the music. We will always have the music.

Meanwhile, I'll keep practicing the Villa-Lobos guitar etudes. And boy, do I _need_ that practice!

Here's a look (and listen) at No. 1 of the set:


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## R3PL4Y (Jan 21, 2016)

Villa-Lobos is one of my favorite composers! A lot of his music was inspired by the landscape of Brazil, so its a shame that the current administration sees no reason to preserve it.


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## aussiebushman (Apr 21, 2018)

Yes, we have drifted away from the music of Villa-Lobos somewhat, so let us share this exquisite performance of the Bachianas Brasileiras number 3


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## strawa (Apr 1, 2020)

I think I'm late in this discussion and I don't even know if anyone will read it, but I allow myself to bring up some points that may be of interest to the OP.

In fact, if we want to find a link to Villa's music, it will be due to his association with the Getúlio Vargas regime, a period known in Brazil as "Estado Novo". Vargas had been the leader of a coup d'état in 1930; and, in 1937, he took a self-coup consolidating his regime, which lasted until 1945.

There are no easy distinctions here as between right/left: Vargas was an authoritarian populist, just as he was responsible for several modernizations and the beginning of our welfare state; he overthrew an oligarch elite, and at the same time he was a pure dictator, who would later win an election already under a democratic constitution in 1950. He had sympathy for the italian fascist regime, persecuted opponents and promoted mass demonstrations of nationalism, but in the end he was smart enough to align with the USA.

Villa-Lobos was an enthusiast of this regime and composed his worst works with ambitions to arouse nationalist emotions, with few exceptions deserving attention (like the four suites "O Descobrimento do Brasil", but they are not really something new). Yes, some Bachianas were from that period, like my beloved No. 9, but there he had other purposes. Like you, I appreciate Villa's anarchy and my point is that it started to get lost after 1937.

In short, it can be argued that Villa-Lobos' music was not merely a panorama of brazilian nature, but also of a regime that manufactured a particular vision of Brazil. I do not say that it was wrong one, only that it is not definitive.

Since you appreciate his piano concerts, I suggest you meet those of Camargo Guarnieri, who I dare say was more successful in this format. There is a good Naxos album with the first, the second and the third. Here's a sample:






Regarding the Amazon, it will be naive to disregard the tradition of the brazilian political and economic elite which, whether it is a left or right government, disregard nature and want development at all costs. It is amazing how this has been going on since the military regime (1964-1985) until when the "workers" came to power (2003). Certainly, in some moments, the environmental agenda was heard by the latter, but the only serious person completely committed to him in the electoral process won the hatred of both the left and the right. Last but not least: I also despise the current president.


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## aussiebushman (Apr 21, 2018)

I had not checked this thread for quite some time and am pleased it is still drawing attention and comment. 

Strawa - thank you. your knowledge of the social and political background is most illuminating. I was certainly unaware of VL's support of the Vargas regime. Of course, he was not alone in using his art to promote his political views - regardless of which flavor, but for me at least, it does not diminish the value of his music. 

Also thanks for the introduction to Camargo Guarnieri - a new one to me.


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## HD Katz (May 27, 2020)

I prefer the Nelson Freire & Isaac Karabtchevsky recording!


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## aussiebushman (Apr 21, 2018)

Just a minor update here: I have two excellent music systems - one in the house and another in my office. The latter is where I have just played the Christine Ortiz performances of the two Villa Lobos piano concertos - Decca 452 617-2 for anyone interested. https://lnk.to/kPis3

I love both concertos, but the second is particularly emotive.

Ortiz also happens to be one of my favorite pianists. Her rendition of the Shostakovich piano concertos with the RPO is INMO arguably better than the version with Dimitri/Maxim Shostakovich. I have not heard her recording made with Berglund and the Bournemouth, nor the Bernstein version. There is probably a separate thread on that topic somewhere on TC and if not, someone should start one.


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