# the classical music culture



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

You get looked down on for not having heard enough Beethoven or enough Mendelssohn or enough Berlioz or enough Rott or enough JC Bach, not having heard enough opera or enough modern Scandinavian music or Brahms' choral works, not having heard Klemperer or Toscanini, not preferring period instruments or historical performance with enough fervor, not having heard the most recent compositions, not enjoying Schoenberg or Wagner (who you really ought to worship) or Brahms or Bruckner, for enjoying Chopin or something like Pachelbel's canon or Tchaikovsky's 1812 overture or the Strauss Waltzes (especially on New Year's, when no one with a pure heart could possible countenance them) or Merzbow or eRikm or Adés or Glass or Adams or Reich. You get looked down for exactly the opposite things too. 

Really, it's just like middle school. Everybody trying to find a reason to look down on other people. 

I guess it's human nature. The same thing goes among fans of any kind music. 

You guys better enjoy it while it lasts though. Give me five more years like the last five and very few of you will have any ground for your scorn to stand on. But don't worry, there'll be other people new to classical music ready for your jibes. 

The essence of enjoying classical music is the scorn we enjoy for people who don't enjoy the same music we do. 

Now, so far I haven't found this attitude about Medieval and Renaissance music. Maybe I should just give up all other kinds of music and focus on that.


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I should've said "Medieval and early Renaissance music." You get up to Monteverdi, and the scorn rises harsh and bright.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Well, on my more dark and depressed days, I think what you're talking about applies not only to classical music fans, but humans in general. Eg. that sectarianism, the 'us versus them' mentality is engrained in all humans. A kind of tribalism.

But let's face it, there are also positive things going on in classical music. I don't see it as different as any other area of music or the arts. There are aspects that are narcissistic and egomaniacal. Like I don't see the need for the approach, as you suggest, of separating old from new music. They are, to me, simply like both sides of the same coin. Or maybe not even as simple as that. Dig deep, and you'll find that a lot of things in classical are related to eachother, and also to other genres in music. I don't even see any or much distinction between genres, in a good deal of cases at least. & this has been going on for hundreds of years. It's just that now, more than ever, classical is becoming a 'museum piece,' separated from everyday reality. At root of that is some issues you talk about, the separation of things into categories. The 'great' and 'the rest' is maybe a way of putting it.

Then there's the hoary old chestnuts, 'debates' we've had so many times here, it's cliche and boring, eg.:

- The 'objective' versus 'subjective' debate

- 'Atonal' or 'contemporary classical' music

- Various whipping boys, popular for a while (then they change), in my time here we've had everything from Glass, Arvo Part to John Cage, Xenakis, Stockhausen, Schoenberg, you name it (looks like if they're dead, they have to have died at least 50 years ago. Mahler just became 'canonised' as a saint and not a sinner, he died 100 years ago, last year was the anniversary of that).

- Various 'Gods' - usually J.S. Bach - who at least has universal, or near-universal, admiration from classical listeners; now it seems Wagner is on the ascendancy here - which is okay, but its not okay to put him on a pedestal and then correspondingly 'toilet' another composer - which seems de rigeur on classical music forums.

- Giving advice to people when they don't ask for it. Or if they ask for it, give it in a way that it's an order, eg. shoving things down their throat

- Talking ideology/dogma, not lived reality, eg. not based on actual experience

...& I could go on. Plenty to be negative about but now my 'philosophy' - or not even that, just what I do in practice - is enjoy the music. Push my comfort zones when I feel like it. Give things a chance if I think they're worth exploring. Read about music, esp. in books & cd liner notes, etc. Decrease intellectualizing and increase connection of music through emotions, and also history of the piece/composer's life/context, etc.

So in the words of the late Norman Mailer* "No more bullsh*t."*


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Yes, I do want to listen to more early Renaissance stuff, but I cannot give up my French romanticism or baroque opera or early 20th century opera or the music of the past 45 years (including Sculthorpe and Glass and Cage and Xenakis and Stockhausen).... 

It'd be nice if we could be nicer to each other, but I have learned a heck of a lot on sites like this, and that's what I wanted in the first place. 

Perhaps if I could just accept the snobbery without being offended by it.


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

and *Ligeti...*

(I did this just to get a "like" from CoAG)


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

science said:


> Yes, I do want to listen to more early Renaissance stuff, but I cannot give up my French romanticism or baroque opera or early 20th century opera or the music of the past 45 years (including Sculthorpe and Glass and Cage and Xenakis and Stockhausen).... ...


Man you are skating on thin ice, I'm telling you! :lol:

That sentence reminds me of the guards playing dice to divide up bits of Christ's robe amongst themselves, at the crucifixion. You can tear off the wig opera bit, science, and I'll keep Sculthorpe and Xenakis...nobody will want the John Cage bit cos he only composed _4'33"_ (another revolving door cliche debate I forgot to mention), and so he doesn't have a real 'bit,' so to speak


----------



## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

science said:


> You get looked down on for not having heard enough Beethoven or enough Mendelssohn or enough Berlioz or enough Rott or enough JC Bach, not having heard enough opera or enough modern Scandinavian music or Brahms' choral works, not having heard Klemperer or Toscanini, not preferring period instruments or historical performance with enough fervor, not having heard the most recent compositions, not enjoying Schoenberg or Wagner (who you really ought to worship) or Brahms or Bruckner, for enjoying Chopin or something like Pachelbel's canon or Tchaikovsky's 1812 overture or the Strauss Waltzes (especially on New Year's, when no one with a pure heart could possible countenance them) or Merzbow or eRikm or Adés or Glass or Adams or Reich. You get looked down for exactly the opposite things too.
> 
> Really, it's just like middle school. Everybody trying to find a reason to look down on other people.
> 
> ...


Well, sounds kind of sad. Pity.

Thankfully, I experienced none of that from when I started to now (master level). So calling it all "the classical music culture", is simply false.

Edit: what's more, I couldn't give a **** what others, especially at internet sites think.


----------



## Conor71 (Feb 19, 2009)

Its hard to know if you're being a bit tongue in cheek science but for what its worth I think you could be one of the people on this site who could claim to have a pretty good broad listening experience of Classical Music. I dont doubt some people look down their noses at others who they think have inferior tastes/collections to their own but personally speaking I dont detect much of that presence on TC and wouldnt take it seriously if I did. I have as much respect for the person with 10 CD's as the person with 10,000 CD's of Classical provising of course both equally love this music


----------



## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

I cant say I know what you mean either. In all human interactions there is a certain need to be superior, but there is no 'classical music scene'.

Every teacher, professional or just general classical lover Ive met in has been nothing but open-minded, inquisitive and informed. And if they werent, then it was in proportion that I would expect from a group of humans.
This forum is the same.


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

emiellucifuge said:


> I cant say I know what you mean either. In all human interactions there is a certain need to be superior, but there is no 'classical music scene'.
> 
> Every teacher, professional or just general classical lover Ive met in has been nothing but open-minded, inquisitive and informed. And if they werent, then it was in proportion that I would expect from a group of humans.
> This forum is the same.


Got to admit, all the professionals I've ever known were wonderful. Never experienced any snobbery among them.


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

science said:


> and *Ligeti...*
> 
> (I did this just to get a "like" from CoAG)


Yeah, baby, woohoo!


----------



## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

Since joining last month, I have been favourably impressed with the ability of forum members to express interesting views in an articulate and cogent fashion. I think the generic label "Classical" music invites a degree of pretention and snobbery - but this doesn't intrude. Some threads are IMO a little "silly" but then again, they also add a certain light relief to the proceedings. I am currently going through the entire atonal thread with great interest.

Classical music culture, as it exists at/on this forum - which is what I assume you had in mind when you created this thread - is alive, well and healthy, IMO.


----------



## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

Of course everyone wants to be superior to others (unless perhaps one has an inferiority complex). This desire to stand out is natural and good. Otherwise, how on earth would women know whom to pick?

It's a primal pattern that articulates itself even in the most sophisticated environments. You can't help it.

Or perhaps you can. I'm always full of admiration for Schumann when it comes to his friendship with Brahms. What a great example. Schumann met Brahms and after a taste of Brahms' compositions, he declared him the next Beethoven. We all know the story. But to think: how selfless of Schumann. I'm sure Schumann himself was highly ambitious, and probably a good part of him dreamt of being the next Beethoven himself. Yet when Brahms came along, Schumann acknowledged his greatness and helped and supported him. Didn't think of him as a rival, but a comrade, if you like. What a marvellous man Schumann must have been. He really must have loved music first, and not his own role he played in it.


----------



## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

I think that _science_ has started a very small, very smokey fire, and has cunningly arranged mirrors to simulate a Big Thing.

Well done, BTW.


----------



## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Oh well, De Gustibus Non Est Disputandum . It's inevitable that different CM fans will have their disagreements over taste . But it would be a much duller CM world if everybody agreed about every composer, performing musician , live perfomance and recoridng ! 
Im sorry you've gotten so easily offended . I try to be tolerant of other peoples likes and dislikes and don't knock any one for loving a composer I dislike or vice versa . But when people disagree with you or try to 
persuade you to give this or that composer or work a chance, you shouldn't take it personally .
If you don't like something at first by this or that composer, give it repeated hearings to make sure whether you actually dislike it or not .


----------



## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Well, to tell you all the truth, if you think it's like hell "in here," it's even more like hell "out there." Music wars are raging everywhere right now in pop culture, and what we bicker about is nothing in comparison. That doesn't mean what we talk about isn't meaningful, but it sure means that we aren't alone.  What we work on here for "tolerance of all classical music and listeners" is like a microcosm of what should go on in pop music world, only "they" are as equally unsuccessful as "us." But since the classical music world is like a microcosm, we might as well start experimenting here with how to deal with intolerance/bullying etc., since our small size is our advantage, albeit one of the only ones.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

science said:


> Got to admit, all the professionals I've ever known were wonderful. Never experienced any snobbery among them.


:lol:...you must be living in Utopia.

But in truth, not only professionals can be snobs or have negative attitudes to things or life in general. So can anybody, whatever your level of education or status, which leads me to this -



Huilunsoittaja said:


> Well, to tell you all the truth, if you think it's like hell "in here," it's even more like hell "out there." Music wars are raging everywhere right now in pop culture, and what we bicker about is nothing in comparison. That doesn't mean what we talk about isn't meaningful, but it sure means that we aren't alone.  What we work on here for "tolerance of all classical music and listeners" is like a microcosm of what should go on in pop music world, only "they" are as equally unsuccessful as "us." But since the classical music world is like a microcosm, we might as well start experimenting here with how to deal with intolerance/bullying etc., since our small size is our advantage, albeit one of the only ones.


I would agree that there are all types of music snobs, not just classical snobs. But what I get a sense of when talking about, or hearing people talking about say the latest rock acts or albums, there is less intellectualising and more 'gut' feelings. & the latter are valid more, or at least validated more. Eg. if someone doesn't like the album by Gotye, an Aussie rocker that hit big time in international charts, they just say they don't like the vibe of his music or something. They could attach some thing bordering on ideology to that - eg. he's 'too melodic' or 'cheesy' or something - but its less likely to lead to arguments as in classical. If I say I don't like some sacred cow like any of the three B's, for example, there will inevitably be consequences on online discussions of classical music. Eg. the 'you don't like the three B's so you don't know what you're talking about' type attitude. More implied than said like that.

But what if I say I like Elvis or Roy Orbison over Gotye. Or if I like Gotye over those two dead 'legends.' Is there consequences in conversations about rock music? Do they even compare Elvis to someone alive & doing rock today, like Gotye? I don't know. I doubt that Elvis is as a sacred cow as the three B's are. Unless you're an Elvis impersonator, maybe? :lol:

Just writing what I think aloud here. I can't answer these thoughts/musings myself.


----------



## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I'll assume this entire thread is rooted in certain disagreements that have been voiced over on the "TC's 50 Greatest Composers List" thread. As member Superhorn suggested, it is inevitable that classical music fans will have their disagreements... especially over something they are as passionate about as the music we are discussing. It is to be expected that the big fans of Modernist and Contemporary music will support their tribe... and assume that those who see things differently simply haven't listened enough... or well enough. And it is to be expected that the fans of the Baroque or the Renaissance or Medieval music will feel the same. 

As member HarpsichordConcerto suggested, I have my own personal "canon" and I really don't care what others think... to an extent. Aye! There's the rub! Surely we all desire to share what we enjoy... what we sometimes love passionately... with others. My own personal list of "The Greatest Composers of All Time" would surely differ from that of the TC list. But then again... what does the TC list really represent? It's nothing more than a popularity contest among classical music fans who have tastes and experiences that differ to a great extent. 

The period of Romanticism and Post-Romanticism... shall we say the music from c. 1800-1940... has long been the most popular. I can't find fault with this. I love Schubert, Schumann, Wagner, Brahms, Mahler, Strauss (Richard and Johann), Debussy, Tchaikovsky, Verdi, etc... myself. But as suggested in an earlier post, I can't imagine a survey of Western Literature or Art History that was so greatly skewed toward the work of a single era. If I've gotten frustrated with the voting on the "TC's 50 Greatest Composers List" thread, it is because I feel that there's more to music than that which was composed between 1800 and 1930... and I don't feel that it would be some great travesty if a few more "Classical Era", Baroque, and Renaissance composers were recognized... and it would be nice if at least a sing Medieval composer made it into the Top-50... but I highly doubt it will happen as the highest ranked currently is Machaut at 75 (and quite honestly, I far prefer Hildegard of Bingen, Francesco Landini, Guillaume Dufay, Léonin, and Pérotin). Quite honestly, I have dug quite deep into the Baroque, but barely scraped the surface of Medieval and Renaissance music... as well as that of the "Classical Era". Even so... I've heard enough to recognize that the best composers of these eras (whether it be Dufay, Biber, Zelenka, Hildegard, Palestrina, Byrd, Tallis, Maurenzio, etc...) are in no way inherently inferior to many of the composers already recognized on our list. 

Perhaps a better approach might be to construct a list for each era. Such would surely be useful to those interested in exploring an unfamiliar body of music.

:tiphat:


----------



## Kevin Pearson (Aug 14, 2009)

science said:


> Now, so far I haven't found this attitude about Medieval and Renaissance music. Maybe I should just give up all other kinds of music and focus on that.


This last statement just negates everything else you just said because you become one of "those" people you just wrote about. You just voiced a condemning judgment on those who enjoy all the things you just listed. It's kind of like people who say.."I'd never be a Christian because their just full of hypocrites"! Well, there's always room for one more!!  I appreciate what you are trying to say but being a huge fan of Star Trek I try and avoid intolerance whether it be religious, political or musical. People are free to enjoy what music they like and if I don't happen to like it I say "live and let live". I don't HAVE to listen to it. Why waste energy on so much negativity? It's not worth it. I don't have the time or energy to anymore. I like what I like and you like what you like and sometimes we like the same things. It doesn't make either one of us inferior to the other. Enjoy life and if that means for you digging into the Medieval and Renaissance camp then do it because it brings you joy and pleasure. Not to be "against" something. It's a sad thing to be known only for what you are against and not known for what you are for.

Kevin


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Kevin Pearson said:


> This last statement just negates everything else you just said because you become one of "those" people you just wrote about. You just voiced a condemning judgment on those who enjoy all the things you just listed. It's kind of like people who say.."I'd never be a Christian because their just full of hypocrites"! Well, there's always room for one more!!  I appreciate what you are trying to say but being a huge fan of Star Trek I try and avoid intolerance whether it be religious, political or musical. People are free to enjoy what music they like and if I don't happen to like it I say "live and let live". I don't HAVE to listen to it. Why waste energy on so much negativity? It's not worth it. I don't have the time or energy to anymore. I like what I like and you like what you like and sometimes we like the same things. It doesn't make either one of us inferior to the other. Enjoy life and if that means for you digging into the Medieval and Renaissance camp then do it because it brings you joy and pleasure. Not to be "against" something. It's a sad thing to be known only for what you are against and not known for what you are for.
> 
> Kevin


All good thoughts.


----------

