# Please improve Beethoven's 9th symphony NOW.



## John Lenin (Feb 4, 2021)

Beethoven was lazy. Ending his last symphony with a crass drunken sing-a-long about falling over and kissing the world was an obvious mistake. It is akin to going to the opera with a beautiful woman and ending the night in a brothel. Had Beethoven been 'thinking properly' how should he have ended this symphony.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)




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## John Lenin (Feb 4, 2021)

Yes I think either resetting the whole symphony as one big drunken songfest or just crossing out the singing bit is the only way to go.
The 2nd movement could be recast with words celebrating the discovery of brewing techniques to add a little balance... There is a famous song 'John Barleycorn must die'... Maybe that could be ammended to suit


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

It stands as it is. I agree that it seems a bit out of place, but no one's capable of "improving" it. Just chill man.

I do wonder though if it was maybe a result of his stubbornness: Beethoven had dreamed of setting Schiller's poem to music for decades, and maybe he couldn't get that idea out of his head.


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

John Lenin said:


> I think either resetting the whole symphony as one big drunken songfest or just crossing out the singing bit is the only way to go.


Well, the work is in Public Domain. There's nothing stopping you from changing it. Go for it!!


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

It is what it is, and Beethoven spent a lot of time on it, so he knew what he was trying to do. Its success is up to the listener. But there seems to be a consensus on its greatness.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Jacck said:


>


I might as well try making a meme remix of Trump's utterances, with the "Ode to joy" as the BGM



hammeredklavier said:


> As I read the title, I was expecting something like this,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## vincula (Jun 23, 2020)

Whenever we're all be vanished into ashes and forever forgotten, many a man will still be discussing and listening to Beethoven's work as it is. Neat number, don't ya think?

Regards,

Vincula


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Is this some kind of joke? Go and write your own symphony and make it more influential and famous than Beethoven's instead.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Allerius said:


> Is this some kind of joke?


It's likely that the member in question wants to make outrageous comments in order to get multiple responses.


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## John Lenin (Feb 4, 2021)

I'm glad we all seem to be agreed that 'changes need to be made'. I'd simply rip the 'drunked bar room song' off the end.... but maybe 'actually doing Beethoven's job properly and setting a text to the whole of the symphony IS what is needed. I'm open to suggestions but I really think THIS NEEDS SORTING NOW.... It has plainly gone on for too long in it's unsatisfactory state.


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

Bulldog said:


> It's likely that the member in question wants to make outrageous comments in order to get multiple responses.


It is, I'm afraid, something of a habit. With 50 posts made in the 10 days or so since he joined, nearly all of them have been utterly nonsensical and clearly designed to provoke.

Where I come from, we call that 'a troll'.


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## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

John Lenin said:


> Beethoven was lazy. Ending his last symphony with a crass drunken sing-a-long about falling over and kissing the world was an obvious mistake. It is akin to going to the opera with a beautiful woman and ending the night in a brothel. Had Beethoven been 'thinking properly' how should he have ended this symphony.


You have quickly established yourself as one of the most bizarre, provocative, characters on this forum. I'm not sure whether to applaud your efforts, but all your posts have given me a good laugh.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Also: Beethoven was many things, but lazy wasn't one of them.


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## John Lenin (Feb 4, 2021)

Look, if you were listening to some Gregorian chant monk stuff and right at the end somebody came along with "alright, lets liven this up with a bit of a piano sing-a- long".. you'd all say "oh how crass, how ... utterly tasteless..." 
But you have all allowed some German guy to get away with it..... well tut tut is what I say.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

John Lenin said:


> Beethoven was lazy. Ending his last symphony with a crass drunken sing-a-long about falling over and kissing the world was an obvious mistake. It is akin to going to the opera with a beautiful woman and ending the night in a brothel. Had Beethoven been 'thinking properly' how should he have ended this symphony.


Some people think the ninth is great, until the finale. But if he'd died before finishing it, we'd probably have to suffer having someone tag the Missa Solemnis on the end or a completion using discarded parts of the Moonlight Sonata.I think we're better off leaving it alone.


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

John Lenin said:


> Look, if you were listening to some Gregorian chant monk stuff and right at the end somebody came along with "alright, lets liven this up with a bit of a piano sing-a- long".. you'd all say "oh how crass, how ... utterly tasteless..."
> But you have all allowed some German guy to get away with it..... well tut tut is what I say.


I'd say, stop quoting _A Connecticut Yankee in the Court of King Arthur_, but that's just me.
Personally, I think I'd appreciate you not posting so much drivel.
But I may well be in a minority on that. So I shall just say instead that your red-rag-to-bull impersonation has simply made me ignore you from here on.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I accept the Ninth as it stands. It's like the first part is a sense of expectation, and then the heavens open up. Inhale-exhale.

I am well aware that many listeners do not like the choral finale, and feel that it's out of place. It certainly is quite a contrast.


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## John Lenin (Feb 4, 2021)

millionrainbows said:


> I accept the Ninth as it stands. It's like the first part is a sense of expectation, and then the heavens open up. Inhale-exhale.


Seriously..... you are buying this crass jokey ending..... ???


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

John Lenin said:


> Seriously..... you are buying this crass jokey ending..... ???


"Crass jokey" pretty much sums up this thread.


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

amfortas said:


> "Crass jokey" pretty much sums up this thread.


Well, there's always the report button. I have been tempted, but I figure a looney's a looney for all that, and who am I to judge? (And no offence to my Candaian friends)/ But I would personally welcome a permaban hammer dropping down round about now and in approximately this vicinity.

In the meantime, I don't know if people know the 'abbreviation' PDNFTT.

Please Do Not Feed The Troll.

It means, do not rise to bait, do not respond, do not engage. 
It's the best I've got, I'm afraid.

PS. I've reported him anyway. Where it goes, I cannot say, but can only hope.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Perhaps a guitar solo instead of all the singy stuff? It worked for Stairway to Heaven. And instead of "and she's buying a stairway to..... Heaven" tagged on the very end, maybe we could end with "this is the end of the 9th....symphony (in German, of course)? An interesting premise. Next up, instead of Mahler's hammer blows how about some loud fart noises? That 6th symphony is wayyy too serious.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

John Lenin said:


> Seriously..... you are buying this crass jokey ending..... ???


I'm sure you know you can't keep going on in this way. Say something more substantiative or nothing at all.



Taggart said:


> Repeated negative posts about any sort of music can be considered as trolling.
> A number of posts have been withdrawn for moderator consideration.


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## John Lenin (Feb 4, 2021)

Of course seeking to find ways of improving music is not trolling. Neither is the occassional negative yet constructive criticism of any work.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> I'd say, stop quoting _A Connecticut Yankee in the Court of King Arthur_, but that's just me.
> Personally, I think I'd appreciate you not posting so much drivel.
> *But I may well be in a minority on that. *So I shall just say instead that your red-rag-to-bull impersonation has simply made me ignore you from here on.


I doubt you are in the minority. I'm with you anyway, along with my dog Baxter.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

EdwardBast said:


> I doubt you are in the minority. I'm with you anyway, along with my dog Baxter.


Same with me and my dogs Betty Lou and Tango.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> It is, I'm afraid, something of a habit. With 50 posts made in the 10 days or so since he joined, nearly all of them have been utterly nonsensical and clearly designed to provoke.
> 
> Where I come from, we call that 'a troll'.


Nonsense, garbage post. Go find a different thread.



hammeredklavier said:


> I'm sure you know you can't keep going on in this way. Say something more substantiative or nothing at all.


Well I can agree with that. But it's not (nor should) be a requirement.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

*Please improve Beethoven's 9th symphony NOW.*



John Lenin said:


> Beethoven was lazy. Ending his last symphony with a crass drunken sing-a-long about falling over and kissing the world was an obvious mistake. It is akin to going to the opera with a beautiful woman and ending the night in a brothel. Had Beethoven been 'thinking properly' how should he have ended this symphony.


Heck, I think he should start by shortening his name. I mean, Mozart only needs six letters, and Haydn five. Who does Beethoven, nine letters, think he is? Somebody who had to write one symphony for every letter of his name? Had he named himself simply Beethove, we'd likely not even have that darned long Ninth Symphony! And Shakespeare (eleven letters!) had the nerve to ask "What's in a name?" He should have shortened his name, too.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

millionrainbows said:


> I accept the Ninth as it stands. It's like the first part is a sense of expectation, and then the heavens open up. Inhale-exhale.
> 
> I am well aware that many listeners do not like the choral finale, and feel that it's out of place. It certainly is quite a contrast.


In the TC poll the other day, the finale just about tied the first movement as the most popular movement of this symphony.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

hammeredklavier said:


> I might as well try making a meme remix of Trump's utterances, with the "Ode to joy" as the BGM


What real politicians are actually saying when they talk:


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

So we're suggesting that there should be a change to the final movement and the composer's name now? Such a shame Ludwig had no access to plastic surgery. He may have looked very different too.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

I actually like the finale until the variations kick in. Then it's nails on a chalkboard and it never ends.

EDIT: What was technically so bad about Beethoven's vocal writing? His reputation as being a poor composer for voices precedes itself, and I think he also conceded it himself, but what's going on in his scores in the Choral Fantasy, Fidelio or 9th Finale where you can clearly see the said 'sloppiness'?


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## John Lenin (Feb 4, 2021)

LvB should of course be what he is known as ..... And this symphony is obviously LvB#9.....
Look at the strides we are making already when we come together as a team.
My heart is warming to you all.

"Here's a kiss to all the team".... xxxxx


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

The singing was fine, although it should have been set in English so we could all enjoy it.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Im surprised Mahler didn't totally re-orchestrate the ending and remove the singing seeing as he dropped that random tuba in his re-orchestrated first movement. I'd have expected him to throw in a few hammer blows in the finale too, just to jazz it up.


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## John Lenin (Feb 4, 2021)

pianozach said:


> The singing was fine, although it should have been set in English so we could all enjoy it.


Exactly.... he wouldn't have even to had to have changed the words much. He could have written it about Sigmund Freud... he was an Austrian too, they must have known each other...

"Freud and Freud and Freud and Freud and Freud and Freud and Freud Dude" ..... it fits.... it's what I sing anyway


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> I actually like the finale until the variations kick in. Then it's nails on a chalkboard and it never ends.
> 
> EDIT: What was technically so bad about Beethoven's vocal writing? His reputation as being a poor composer for voices precedes itself, and I think he also conceded it himself, but what's going on in his scores in the Choral Fantasy, Fidelio or 9th Finale where you can clearly see the said 'sloppiness'?


It is not at all concluded that Beethoven was a poor vocal composer. And he didn't describe himself as a poor composer for voices; his words were to the effect that he struggled with it moreso than for instruments/the orchestra. Related is the fact that he received far more criticism for the demands he made on voices during his lifetime (eg. sopranos' high B-flats in Missa Solemnis) than he does now.


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## GrosseFugue (Nov 30, 2011)

John Lenin said:


> Beethoven was lazy. Ending his last symphony with a crass drunken sing-a-long about falling over and kissing the world was an obvious mistake. It is akin to going to the opera with a beautiful woman and ending the night in a brothel. Had Beethoven been 'thinking properly' how should he have ended this symphony.


LOL. Firstly, would you consider changing your forum name to John Leningrad Symphony? It would have a more Classical Music ring to it and be plain cool. 

Seems many people through history have complained about the finale being "problematic." A "problem" in purely musical terms, not -- I assume -- in terms of emotional impact.

In the 9th, LvB created the greatest 1st mvt, greatest Scherzo, greatest slow mvt...and then BAM-O! You get hit with something so colossal, so different, so incongruous, even uncouth in ways.

Stiil, I love the finale! Don't erase it!

Rather...

...I kind of pretty much almost certainly (so many qualifiers!) wish LvB had written an alternate purely instrumental finale. Then given the original finale its own Opus #. Just like what he did with the Grosse Fuge! Which was originally meant to end Opus 130. Someone said the fugue was "insane" or whatever. And LvB realized no one would understand it. So he wrote an alternate one that was more "in harmony" with the rest of the work. Nowadays quartets will reincorporate back it into Opus 130 (or not). Similarly. you can play the alternate finale at home or substitute it with the "insane" one or play "insanity" just by its awesome self! 

I'd love to have those choices with the 9th's finale!

The thing is a Symphony in a Symphony.
Even has its own "four mvts."
Here's Wikipedia's desc:
*1) Theme and variations with slow introduction. The main theme, first in the cellos and basses, is later recapitulated by voices.
2) Scherzo in a 6
8 military style. It begins at Alla marcia (bar 331) and concludes with a 6
8 variation of the main theme with chorus.
3) Slow section with a new theme on the text "Seid umschlungen, Millionen!" It begins at Andante maestoso (bar 595).
4) Fugato finale on the themes of the first and third "movements". It begins at Allegro energico (bar 763).*

Of course, the other idea is to play the 9th as an Unfinished Symphony, ending like Bruckner's 9th did. Then play the finale on a separate concert night -- hey, it's a symphony by itself!

PS -- BTW, when will music labels learn to appreciate the finale as a Symphony In A Symphony and give it multiple tracks??? Would make it so much easier for us music lovers to navigate (and savor)!!! I'd prefer every 9th CD to have as many tracks as this Suzuki recording! Look how they split up the finale! Terrific!
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8668526--beethoven-symphony-no-9


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

John Lenin said:


> "Freud and Freud and Freud and Freud and Freud and Freud and Freud Dude" ..... it fits.... it's what I sing anyway






"Why did John Lennon have to be the one to get shot; something's wrong.
While John Lenin is still alive..."


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

How about Vladimir Patton? ^


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

hammeredklavier said:


> "Why did John Lennon have to be the one to get shot; something's wrong.
> While John Lenin is still alive..."


Haha, that's like the perfect burn.


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## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> EDIT: What was technically so bad about Beethoven's vocal writing? His reputation as being a poor composer for voices precedes itself, and I think he also conceded it himself, but what's going on in his scores in the Choral Fantasy, Fidelio or 9th Finale where you can clearly see the said 'sloppiness'?


Kind of like Schumann's orchestration, I would say. Thick, sometimes awkward, and less colorful than his contemporaries, but certainly not bad in my opinion, especially if you enjoy that kind of sound.


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## HerbertNorman (Jan 9, 2020)

I think the arrogant OP should go and write some music that even comes near the greatness of what the composer called Beethoven wrote. 
Mahler and most of the composers after him liked what the composer called Beethoven wrote...and were grateful for what he had done for the art of music.
OMG ...  the summum malum of posters on here...? Comes close imho


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

HerbertNorman said:


> I think the arrogant OP should go and write some music that even comes near the greatness of what the composer called Beethoven wrote.
> Mahler and most of the composers after him liked what the composer called Beethoven wrote...and were grateful for what he had done for the art of music.
> OMG ...  the summum malum of posters on here...? Comes close imho


Devil's advocate here...you don't have to be a good composer to criticize composition...just like you can be a sports critic without being an athlete. That being said, I think Lenin is deliberately posting provocative stuff to get TC members stirred up.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

chu42 said:


> Kind of like Schumann's orchestration, I would say. Thick, sometimes awkward, and less colorful than his contemporaries, but certainly not bad in my opinion, especially if you enjoy that kind of sound.


Ahh, ok. I was never sure if it was just a concoted narrative that just perpetuated itself, or if there was something to it. Choral music isn't really my thing so I had very little to go off of.


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## John Lenin (Feb 4, 2021)

There must be some great musical artist alive today who would take on the alterations needed. I reckon if we all chipped in we could get Sting or Bono to work on the lyric... Or Bjork.... I think Bjork would do a great job. What do you reckon £500 for completion... That's about $2000 in YANKEEE coin


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## John Lenin (Feb 4, 2021)

"It's so quiet and peaceful until.... Wham bam.... Freud and Freud and Freud and Freud... Dude...."


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

hammeredklavier said:


> "Why did John Lennon have to be the one to get shot; something's wrong.
> While John Lenin is still alive..."


What if the assassin had missed, and accidentally killed Yoko instead? Perhaps John would have hooked back up with the rest of the Fab Four and created some astonishing music.

What if the assassin had missed, and accidentally killed Jackie instead? Perhaps JFK would have married Marilyn, enjoyed a 2nd term, and when RFK had been elected in 1968, he'd have appointed JFK Secretary of State.


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## John Lenin (Feb 4, 2021)

pianozach said:


> What if the assassin had missed, and accidentally killed Yoko instead? Perhaps John would have hooked back up with the rest of the Fab Four and created some astonishing music.
> 
> What if the assassin had missed, and accidentally killed Jackie instead? Perhaps JFK would have married Marilyn.


JFK and Marilyn Manson..... Seriously.... Are you on drugs ..?


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

pianozach said:


> What if the assassin had missed, and accidentally killed Jackie instead? Perhaps JFK would have married Marilyn, enjoyed a 2nd term, and when RFK had been elected in 1968, he'd have appointed JFK Secretary of State.


Marilyn (Monroe) committed suicide 1962 and JFK was assassinated 1963, so no chance for a romance between them, if JFK had survived in 1963.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

If the fourth and final movement of Beethoven's 9th bothers you so much, why not just listen to the first three movements and make believe it's one of those unfinished symphonies like Schubert's 8th and Bruckner's 9th? Maybe Bruckner's 9th is something like what Beethoven's 9th would be like sans the finale. I read somewhere that Bruckner was thinking of using a choral finale to end his own 9th or even tacking on his own _Te Deum_ as the finale, but that would have been a real rip-off. So give Beethoven credit for coming up with something original instead of reusing old footage. Although the 9th finale does sound an awful lot like the _Choral Fantasy_.


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## John Lenin (Feb 4, 2021)

It is also fairly common knowledge now that the Kennedys were gay....

.....oh wait a minute, might need to amend this... I might be thinking of Simon and Garfunkel... Which couple drove their car off the bridge over troubled water...???


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## Marc (Jun 15, 2007)

SONNET CLV said:


> *Please improve Beethoven's 9th symphony NOW.*
> 
> Heck, I think he should start by shortening his name. I mean, Mozart only needs six letters, and Haydn five. Who does Beethoven, nine letters, think he is? Somebody who had to write one symphony for every letter of his name? Had he named himself simply Beethove, we'd likely not even have that darned long Ninth Symphony! And Shakespeare (eleven letters!) had the nerve to ask "What's in a name?" He should have shortened his name, too.


"Ich bin Beethoven!"

He already DID shorten his name. It's *VAN* Beethoven (his ancestors were from the southern Netherlands).
By the way, the fact that he did shorten his name is of course a solid proof for Mr. John Lenin's hypothesis that Beethoven was lazy.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Marc said:


> He already DID shorten his name. It's *VAN* Beethoven (his ancestors were from the *southern Netherlands*).
> By the way, the fact that he did shorten his name is of course a solid proof for Mr. John Lenin's hypothesis that Beethoven was lazy.


then his name was Lodewijk van Beethoven?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Jacck said:


> then his name was Lodewijk van Beethoven?


No. His grandfather's name was actually Lodewijk van Beethoven by the way.


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## Marc (Jun 15, 2007)

Jacck said:


> then his name was Lodewijk van Beethoven?


They were already Germans then, so it's Ludwig.
Decades ago, there was a popular live radio broadcast program called _Für Elise_ in the Netherlands, and at the end the presenter used to close with: "special thanks to Lodewijk van Beethoven."


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

Marc said:


> "Ich bin Beethoven!"
> 
> He already DID shorten his name. It's *VAN* Beethoven (his ancestors were from the southern Netherlands).
> By the way, the fact that he did shorten his name is of course a solid proof for Mr. John Lenin's hypothesis that Beethoven was lazy.


This discussion reminds me of a really mentally bereft article I read one time: https://slate.com/culture/2020/10/fullname-famous-composers-racism-sexism.html

LOL. The author graps at straws so hard and wants 'woke' brownie points so much it sounds so sanctimonious and ingenuine.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

> L. Beethoven


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Marc said:


> "Ich bin Beethoven!"
> 
> He already DID shorten his name. It's *VAN* Beethoven (his ancestors were from the southern Netherlands).
> By the way, the fact that he did shorten his name is of course a solid proof for Mr. John Lenin's hypothesis that Beethoven was lazy.


Now we can simply call him *"Big B"*.


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## John Lenin (Feb 4, 2021)

Fat Tony is what he should be known as.... everyone loves Fat Tony..... up to a point


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