# What is the appeal of opera?



## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

*How can I appreciate Opera?*

After spending my time listening to chamber music, symphonies, art songs and concerti, I have now decided to plunge into a strange new territory:*Opera.*

I have a little knowledge of opera, having listened to Mozart's Arias and some clips of Wagner's operas in youtube. I confess, I haven't bought a dvd yet because I wanted to ''test'' the water first.. Unfortunately, watching an entire opera live is not an option. I lived in a country whose appreciation to the ''art music'' is non-existant.

The problem is, I seem can't understand/appreciate the whole ''cohesiveness'' and ''absoluteness'' of the work. Listening to ''Queen of the Night'' screeching is bad enough, but the whole thing (libretto, staging, leitmotif, etc) seems to overwhelm me.. I confess, I prefer to listen to smaller intimate pieces such as Schubert's Lieder.

So, can anyone help me how can I appreciate it? I am very thankful to TC's recommended operas, but seeing Wagner's Ring cycle and Tristan in the first two spots is very disingenous for a newbie like me.. 

Thanks..


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

The TC 100 most recommended operas are not meant to be understood as the right way to approach opera for the first time, since operas 1 and 2 The Ring of the Nibelungen (actually 4 operas) and Tristan und Isolde are rather complex works that some feel should be best approached after some preliminary exposure to less demanding works. It's just that the voting community at the time of the making of the list felt that these are the two most recommended operas out there, in terms of their artistic value (and I agree).

The fat lady with horns and breast plate above does not represent current trends in opera. Nowadays many singers are expected to look the part as well, and we have debated this point to death, but I believe that a good chunk of our community endorses the fact that opera is also a visual art and when you don't need as much suspension of disbelief while watching a story about attractive characters, it helps.

I believe that there is no right or wrong way to approach opera. Some people do attack first the Ring or Tristan und Isolde and like them. I'd say however that statistically speaking, there is a bigger chance that the newbie will stick with the genre if he/she approaches it through more welcoming works.

May I make a suggestion? There is a blu-ray disc (also available on DVD) of Verdi's La Traviata with Anna Netrebko and Rolando Villazon that is quite approachable, beautiful, and sleek, with a minimalistic modern staging. It is not a consensus since some complain of the heavy symbolism (e.g. the huge clock signaling Violetta's limited life expectancy) and musically it has its flaws (for example, the rendition of Verdi's gorgeous overture is not at all successful, and given all the strenuous physical activity involved in how this work was staged, Anna at times is breathy and skips some notes thanks to her voice not being suited for the agility required in the coloratura passages) but I find it absolutely beautiful, well acted, sexy, and intense. I have shown this piece to friends who had zero exposure to opera before and some of them became fans.

It would help to watch *first* the extras provided, including a "making of" documentary (about 30 minutes if I remember correctly) that explains the concept of the production, and a 5' introduction to the plot by one of the singers. Then, watch the full opera, which is not long and very melodious, with a very poetic libretto.

Here is the cover picture:










As you can see, we're very far from the fat lady singing.

A few more pictures of the production:




























Then, there are many other pleasant works, such as Le Nozze di Figaro and Il Barbiere di Siviglia, which are both funny and melodious.

Welcome to a lifetime of pleasure if you do embrace opera. Please let us know the results of your explorations.

Best,

Alma


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

Thanks, alma.. The disc you have mentioned seems to be a modern retelling of Verdi's La Travitia, based on the pictures above.

I am very familiar with some of Mozart's opera such as The Marriage of Figarro and Don Giovanni, Rossini's Barber of Seville, Bizet's Carmen and a few of Puccini works (La Boheme, Turandot and Madame Butterfly). I haven't watched all of them, just some listening..

Wagner's operas gave me headaches..


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Another very good way to appreciate operas is to listen to complete recordings of them on CD.
Most, but not all, come with booklets giving you the synopsis and some background informarion on the opera and the composer,plus a libretto in the original language with an English translation next to it, so you can follow the action and know exactly what the singers are singing about.
Not all CD sets offer this, so make sure you get some which do. The ones which don't tend to be pirated recordings of live performances.

Try the classic Decca recording of Puccini's La Boheme with Pavarotti and Mirella Freni with Karajan and the Berlin Phil. 
Or recordings of Verdi's Aida, La Traviata, Rigoletto, Puccini's Tosca, 
Madama Butterfly , Verdi's Il Trovatore, Otello, Cavalleria Rusticana by Pietro Mascagni, Pagliacci by Ruggero Leoncavallo,
Carmen by Georges Bizet, Don Giovanni and the Magic Flute by Mozart, 
Fidelio by Beethoven, Eugene Onegin by Tchaikovsky , Manon by Jules Massenet,
Faust by Charles Gounod , Der Freischutz (the freeshooter) by Carl Maria Von Weber,
The Bartred Bride by Smetana, Jenufa, by Leos Janacek, and Boris Godunov by Mussorgsky for starters.
If you can't find an English translation,check out the Naxos website where you can download them. 
This is how I got started on opera back in the late 60s as a teenager, longbefore CDs,DVDs, the internet etc, when I started taking out LPs of complete opera 
recordings from my library and got hooked for life on opera.
Before you make an investment in complete opera CDs, you might check your local library to see if they have any. Chances are they do,and some have a lot.
If they don't have a particular recording, you can request them to get it.


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## BalloinMaschera (Apr 4, 2011)

it is not rare that opera is viewed as a compromise between art-form in their own right- orchestration, singing, acting, design, etc...however, when done well, the sum amounts to more than the various compenents...

to start with, I'd probably pick an opera that either tugs at hearstrings a la "La Boheme" , has a fun plot and is musically astounding a la "Nozze di Figaro" or has melodies that make you hum on the way out of the opera house , which is pretty much any Verdi...

then you can graduate to Belcanto, Wagner and beyond!


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

According to Opera America the most-produced operas (in America) are:

1. The Marriage of Figaro by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
2. La bohème by Giacomo Puccini
3. Carmen by Georges Bizet
4. Tosca by Giacomo Puccini
5. La traviata by Giuseppe Verdi
6. Madama Butterfly by Giacomo Puccini
7. The Magic Flute by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
8. Hänsel und Gretel by Engelbert Humperdinck
9. The Elixir of Love by Gaetano Donizetti
10. Don Giovanni by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
11. The Barber of Seville by Gioacchino Rossini

These are popular for a reason. Great melodies, beautiful arias, most with a healthy dose of either dramatics (Puccini), comedy (Rossini) or both (Mozart). Any of these makes a great starting point. Also the best way to digest new Opera is by DVD rather than CD because you'll get on-the-fly translation and the added visual element.

Most people do recommend starting with Wagner's earlier works (Lohengrin, Tannhauser, Flying Dutchman), but if you have championed a fair bit of art music and symphonic work then you should not be scared to tackle Tristan & Isolde. The _point_ Wagner is to overwhelm! Also Der Ring is really just an ultra-slowly paced Lord of the Rings where everybody sings and succumbs to a much more unfortunate fate...


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Couchie said:


> According to Opera America the most-produced operas (in America) are:
> 
> 1. The Marriage of Figaro by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
> 2. La bohème by Giacomo Puccini
> ...


I second everything that Couchie said... well, almost everything (I do like Der Ring a lot more than Lord of the Rings,,,)


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

peeyaj said:


> I confess, I prefer to listen to smaller intimate pieces such as Schubert's Lieder.


Maybe Monteverdi's "L'Orfeo", Purcell's "Dido and Aeneas" or Gluck's "Orpheo ed Eurydice" might be your way into opera then. They are more intimate and more modest forces are used than for most later romantic and modern works. There's nothing remotely bombastic about them. Provided you like (in the case of the first two) early baroque of course. Maybe you'd also like Strauss' conversational opera "Cappricio" or his "Der Rosenkavalier."

Needless to say, I'm only guessing. But there are so many operas out there that stylistically are so different from one another that if you keep trying something will click eventually. And once that happens getting into the rest also becomes much easier.


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## Composer1992 (Feb 9, 2009)

I am studying a degree in music composition at an Australian conservatorium, and of course I am around people studying opera and hear them practising and performing in the various concerts that are on. I even accompanied an operatic singer for a competition last year.

The thing is, I don't like opera. In all fairness I can't stand it, even after having been exposed to it for years now. To me there seems to be this thing where liking opera is seen to be cultured, an appreciation for a kind of fine art. For a while I tried listening to opera because I felt I 'should' like it, but I didn't end up liking it any more. Even my friend, another composition student feels the same way- he says he turns off Classic FM when opera comes on. I love the orchestral sound but I just can't stand the singing.

My question to the forum is what makes opera appealing to you? Although I have not read any further than the titles of the threads, it's apparent that it is well-enjoyed. I would like to hear what you have to say.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I'm a relative novice to opera, and I must say I hated the style of singing too for years. Not just opera but all of the classical singing repertoire. I started trying to enjoy it because of pivotal works like Beethoven's 9th symphony, and many baroque choral works. I had always enjoyed classical singing when an entire choir is involved, but when it came to soloists I flinched. I think many share the same experience. All that warbling, strained facial expressions, and quivering lips.

What seemed to work for me, since I am heavily into electronic music, was to think of the soloists not as human voices, but as some kind of synthesizer or theremin. This worked especially well with vocalise or wordless soprano (e.g. Vaughan-Williams _Sinfonia Antartica_). Eventually the rest of it fell into place as well, so I was able to enjoy the wonders of Beethoven's 9th. I realize this little mind game won't work for everyone, but it did the trick for me.

My first opera was the Ring Cycle, and I dove in head first. I found that after a very short time of watching, I forgot about the singing entirely and just enjoyed the story and the epic music. So maybe seeing the opera rather than just hearing it is a big help too. For me opera isn't just about the music. It's definitely its own art form, not very similar at all to plays or movies.


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## Composer1992 (Feb 9, 2009)

That's an interesting way of looking at it- it seems a little strange to me to 'doublethink' of the voice as not a voice, but I guess if it works for you that's good.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

That's a fair and very interesting question and up until a few years ago I didn't like it either. I envy people who have grown up loving it but I didn't so I'm having to make up for lost time.

I do find it difficult to explain why I love it so much though because it touches me on a visceral level. I think it's the combination of a person trying to communicate their deepest feelings and wonderful music.

For me it's definitely _not_ a cultured fine art sort of thing, I trudge to work across fields listening to opera on my mp3 player & that's not cultured at all. I came to love it in an unconventional way, but love it I certainly do. My opera journey & other forum member's journeys are here.

I've been to see live opera and I find the whole thing magical in the real sense. Once the lights go down and I hear those first few notes of a well loved opera, I am transported into the story. And the more familiar I am with the opera, the more I enjoy it - I'll know the story backwards so I can just sit & enjoy the music & these particular singers' interpretation of their roles. And silences can be incredible as well. In one opera, the main character pours himself & then drinks a glass of water which he doesn't know has been poisoned & the 'sound' of more than 2,000 people sitting in total silence while this happened was spine-tingling!

I hope you 'get' opera one day. If you do, you'll be financially poorer but emotionally you'll be a millionaire.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Composer1992 said:


> I am studying a degree in music composition at an Australian conservatorium, and of course I am around people studying opera and hear them practising and performing in the various concerts that are on. I even accompanied an operatic singer for a competition last year.
> 
> The thing is, I don't like opera. In all fairness I can't stand it, even after having been exposed to it for years now. To me there seems to be this thing where liking opera is seen to be cultured, an appreciation for a kind of fine art. For a while I tried listening to opera because I felt I 'should' like it, but I didn't end up liking it any more. Even my friend, another composition student feels the same way- he says he turns off Classic FM when opera comes on. I love the orchestral sound but I just can't stand the singing.
> My question to the forum is what makes opera appealing to you? Although I have not read any further than the titles of the threads, it's apparent that it is well-enjoyed. I would like to hear what you have to say.


G'day from a fellow Australian.

The part I coloured in blue font seems to the fairly typical perception of opera (or indeed classical music amongst the masses in general). I think much of it might be to do with the way the singing in opera is conveyed to audiences today who grew up used to listening to the human voice (consciously or not) singing songs with mass appeal from popular songs, even from pre-rock 'n roll music like jazz. Classical instrumental music might be more tolerable amongst the masses who at least might be under the perception that such music is "music for its own sake", without a long complicated story attached to it, like opera, and the fact that classical instrumental music are often used as background shopping music and on TV.

What drew me to opera was initially no different to what drew me to "popular" classical instrumental tunes, primarily because the music itself spoke to me that I found mysteriously beautiful. Two operas that I came to "master" completely, meaning that I eventually knew all the arias pretty damn well because the whole work was "really satisfying" during my first few years of classical music listening were: Handel's _Giulio Cesare in Egitto_ and Mozart's _Le Nozze di Figaro_, which funny enough both happen to be part of "staple" repertoire these days. The arias in these two works contain simply beautiful music that can be enjoyed as "music for its own sake", too beautiful to let one's prejudicial perceptions determine a different course of action.

From these two works, it was basically over the hurdle for me and well into a world of entertainment/whatever that is simply special. (That's not to say I enjoy every single opera I listen to; there were many that I found somewhat mediocre).


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

It's been addressed here:

http://www.talkclassical.com/12997-question-opera-lovers.html

As a matter of fact, after this thread develops a little more, I'll merge the two threads.

For me, like for many others, it was an acquired taste. I also used to hate operatic singing, and now I love it more than any other art form.


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## AlbaCountertenor (Apr 24, 2011)

It's definitely an acquired taste I think. 

Before I started training as an opera singer I hardly ever listened to opera but now it's basically all the time, as my taste and appreciation for it has grown. I think that one reason why it's often not appreciated immediately is that it's such a stylised (and in many ways unnatural) way of singing. Therefore, you can't just sing along to it as easily as you can with pop/rock/musical numbers and of course, the fact that it's sung in languages other than English limits its accessibility. Of course, if you are a native Italian or German speaker for example this last point doesn't apply to nearly the same degree.

The funny thing is that today opera is perceived as being elitist but it certainly wasn't that way during the 18th and 19th centuries, where opera was seen as entertainment for the masses. Much of the appeal of opera for me is the inherent emotion present in the best singing, as well as, in general, the greater acting abilities of contemporary opera singers. What hasn't helped is today's mass media labelling many classical-crossover singers as opera singers when they certainly aren't. Thus many people are not getting exposed to the real thing, as it were.

To summarise. For me it's the beauty and emotion on show in opera singing which takes classical music to the next level. It's the cherry on top of the cake as it were. 

BTW, Weston's point is an interesting one. Jean Michel Jarre's 'Oxygene' has a synthesizer approximating a female soprano type voice in the first track. Seeing the human voices as extra instruments is very valid as in a basic sense they are just additional instruments within the orchestra.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

AlbaCountertenor said:


> Seeing the human voices as extra instruments is very valid as in a basic sense they are just additional instruments within the orchestra.


Yep, I agree. The human voice as an instrument is certainly true of Wagner's late operas. Even in Verdi you'll find something like this, for example, in the quartet _Bella Figlia del Amore_, when each voice enters one by one and the orchestra quiets down and lets, so to speak, the voices do the orchestral commentary.

There are also very melodious arias that are closer to the lay person's concept of song singing (e.g., _O Mio Babbino Caro, Una Furtiva Lagrima, Je Crois Entendre Encore_).

Choral passages are also very accessible to those who are not used to operatic singing.

Any of the above might be good entry points to start enjoying operatic singing, maybe staying away for a while from the voice acrobatics of Bel Canto coloratura singing in broad sense since Baroque opera, and in strict sense in Italian 19th Century opera.

I believe that anybody who gets familiar with the more accessible singing will then later migrate easily to the more acrobatic singing.

This said, something like this is so beautiful that I think most classical music lovers may be able to relate to it:


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

In my opinion, opera is no more of an acquired taste than any other form of music or art. The reality is that all art forms involve a language and a vocabulary which must be learned to fully appreciate them. In some instances we are exposed to a given art form from early on (pop music, romantic orchestral music, film, the novel) as a result to what is taught at school and what we continually come in contact with through television, the radio, our peers, etc... For the individual raised in contemporary urban America, bluegrass music, jazz, and Indian ragas will be no less strange or difficult to grasp than opera.

As individuals we can simply live with what we were raised with and delve no deeper... or we can make the decision to invest the time and the effort into the fuller understanding... appreciation... and even love of art forms that might seem initially strange... difficult... and challenging. For me, literature as a whole... and poetry were something I felt drawn to and was willing to put forth the labor needed. Other art forms such as the ballet, Chinese music, and Noh theater remain foreign to me as I have not been convinced that the pleasure they may bring would be worth the effort.

In my case, I had a head start when it came to opera. Raised as I was in the Lutheran Church, I was exposed to classical vocals through the choral works I heard every Sunday... especially Bach. My mother, herself, sang in the choir and as a soloist. When I first came to classical music, I was immediately drawn to such choral masterworks as Handel's _Messiah_, Bach's _St. John_ and _St. Matthew Passions_ and his cantatas, Haydn's _Creation_, Beethoven's _9th Symphony_, and Mozart's _Requiem_. From there I branched out toward lieder... German art songs... especially those of Schubert... and having still some rudiments of German I found I could quickly follow along and gain an even deeper appreciation of how Schubert heightened the narrative and the language of the poetry through his musical accompaniment. Opera was but another small step... and this happened in one fell swoop during college when I was given free tickets to see _Aida_ live. Seriously, for anyone who cannot understand opera, I cannot recommend anything more likely to open your eyes and ears than a live performance. As others have noted, opera is a theatrical experience involving music... orchestral as well as vocal (and often choral), dramatic narrative, acting, the visual splendor of costumes, stage sets, and lighting. It is a total art work... a Gesamtkunstwerk. Of course it may still be admired as pure music... the vocal lines thought of as just one more instrument... and this is how I first listen to most new discs of opera and other vocal works... but opera... and classical vocal music as a whole is open to so much more. Indeed, I would note that the rejection of classical vocal music shuts the listener off to a great deal of the finest music ever composed when one considers the various choral works, motets, masses, requiems, glorias, chants, madrigals, chanson, operas, operettas, cantatas, passions, lieder, melodies, romances, ballads, oratorios, etc...


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

AlbaCountertenor said:


> It's definitely an acquired taste I think.
> 
> To summarise. For me it's the beauty and emotion on show in opera singing which takes classical music to the next level. It's the cherry on top of the cake as it were.


I acquired this taste very abruptly, although I had some exposure to classical vocal music previously (Mahler 4, Beethoven 9) and was a keen classical intrumental listener.

But one day I was listening to BBC 3 and Maria Callas came on singing La Traviata. Wow, I was blown away by the beauty and raw emotion of it. It was like a sudden revelation of everything I had been missing. I still remember making the decision to go to an opera when I moved to London, and finding the Coliseum (opera in English seemed more accessible, and besides, I was poor) and plucking up courage to buy a ticket.

Now I find the human voice the most compelling and beguiling of intruments, and share with others the pleasure in the totality of opera, in the way it unites the senses.


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## Truvianni (Apr 21, 2011)

In my opinion opera has many appeals which range to the connection it creates with the stories of the past which are filled with passion along with the music which offers so many varieties; from Monteverdi’s early operas on to later words by Mozart, Verdi, Wagner, Puccini, Rossini, Richard Strauss, and many others. There is also something almost indescribable that binds people in an opera house, musicians, singers and spectators. All in a world of elegance that goes beyond the every day. I mentioned a lot of these factors in my book “New York’s Opera Society” along with the culture it brings and helps preserve for future generations.


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## Truvianni (Apr 21, 2011)

When my daughter was 6 years old I took her to see “La Traviata”. The reason I chose this opera was because it is short well for an opera and its music is not overly complicated so to start I would defiantly recommend operas which are not longer than two hours. “Aida” is also a fine example of an opera I would advice you to see first or amongst the first ones you see. Verdi’s “Aida” has many catchy melodies like the Triumphant March and Celeste Aida and a story which offers all the excitement of opera.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Another novice here!

I like opera because I like classical music and drama. I'm also a big cinephile, but I'm very disappointed in modern cinema, both commercial and non-commercial... in opera, I'm finding some of the things that made me love films in the first place. The sort of immediacy, the human element... it's hard to discribe. I could try to open that can of worms, but it would take pages of text.

The script is also very important to me, and operas seem to have some of the best scripts around. Der Ring des Nibelungen, Tristan und Isolde and Parsifal have left be bedazzled and pondering for weeks afterwards. It's like Shakespeare or Joyce or something. Overwhelmingly well written stuff, and when you combine it with sublime music... WHAM.

On operating singing... well, if you took it out of the opera, and asked if I liked it, I would answer "hell no". It's like taking salt out of a food recipe. Salt is not that delicious in itself, but food needs it to be whole. In the context of an opera, the singing feels appropriate and touching. Also, you'll have to know what they are singing about, it has to be well written, something you care about. And the music needs to be good. When all these factors combine, the singing transforms into this wonderful stuff.

But I couldn't care less about some soprano or tenor singing their lungs out, if I didn't know their characters, the plot, their lines, and didn't hear the orchestra playing in the background.

Edit: oh yeah, referring to the OP: I would totally turn the radio off if it started playing opera. It's no way to listen to an opera. Think of it like watching a film. You have to sit and take it in, absorb it as a whole - not in bits and pieces.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Composer1992 said:


> To me there seems to be this thing where liking opera is seen to be cultured, an appreciation for a kind of fine art.


My immediate response was to say no, not so, because riding my bike along by the river yesterday I was listening to Benny Goodman's 1938 Carnegie Hall concert, but the day before it had been some Handel cantatas, and the day before that it was _La Rondine_. The question of one being more or less 'high-minded' than another simply didn't enter my thoughts.

But then I find myself asking: why is the word 'cultured' being proposed as a _derogatory_ term? And what's wrong with the concept of 'fine art'? If we're talking about snobbery or cultural one-up-man-ship (which I find as distasteful as the next), then I've no patience with that. But the appreciation of cultural value and the fine arts is a wonderful thing, surely? Opera, as such, is neither more nor less 'cultured', neither more nor less a 'fine art' than is classical music in general, or painting, or whatever else one might reasonably add to the list.

It's very evident to me that the appreciation of opera among the enthusiasts here is entirely sincere, and in some cases is a burning passion, having nothing to do with the kind of social snootiness that both you and I would be impatient with. I think I agree with *StLukesguildohio*, that there's nothing particularly exclusive about an appreciation of opera. One might just as easily find oneself standing baffled in front of an abstract painting, or listening incomprehensibly to jazz, thinking the same sort of thing, and just as mistakenly. We don't like feeling excluded, naturally - but often the exclusion is of our own making (or choosing).


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## Truvianni (Apr 21, 2011)

Another idea is that you go to an opera house which offers translations. For I believe listening to an opera without understanding what is being said or sung is like going to see a film in a language we do not understand. I personally speak Italian and French so I do not have a problem with operas in these languages but I do with Wagner. My German in fact being limited to a few sentences and phrases which allow me to get by but not much more.


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

As with all musical performances the key to getting involved is in the hands of the performers themselves. When they are with heart and soul 'in', this will pull in the onlooking listeners/watchers 'in' as well. I remember well the first time I visited the National Theatre of Prague with looking down on the stage and into the orchestra's pit from inbetween my shoes (got a seat close to the :angel:s). Didn't know nor understand a syllable of Czech then, but the conductor's fervour and the high-spirited ensemble singing on the stage lighted a fire that went high up. Later on with the subtitles running on high, one's attention is forcefully being split up: reading, watching, listening... looking up, looking down... Give me back the old days, please :tiphat:


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

I have merged these two rather identical threads in terms of topics, for housekeeping purposes.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Almaviva said:


> I have merged these two rather identical threads in terms of topics, for housekeeping purposes.


I hereby award you the Talk Classical Gold Medal for Thread-Blending Expertise. Thread-blenders of the future will look back at this moment, nod to each other, and say, yes, this is how it should be done.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Elgarian said:


> I hereby award you the Talk Classical Gold Medal for Thread-Blending Expertise. Thread-blenders of the future will look back at this moment, nod to each other, and say, yes, this is how it should be done.


I know I'm good!


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

There's an interesting little video on the beauty & emotion in the human voice on here.


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## CaptainAzure (May 2, 2011)

Simple. It's a synthesis of the two most expressive and evocative forms of art. Singing and Music. Nothing can affect you more emotionally and intellectually than an opera.


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## CaptainAzure (May 2, 2011)

peeyaj said:


> Listening to ''Queen of the Night'' screeching is bad enough, but the whole thing (libretto, staging, leitmotif, etc) seems to overwhelm me.


Oh how could you 
I have to say that among the most talented Sopranos I have ever heard are usually in the role of Queen of The Night when I go to see Die Zauberflöte. 'Der Holle Rache' is what operettas are all about.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

I thought I'd bump this thread & ask some of our newer members what the appeal of opera is.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Composer1992 said:


> I am studying a degree in music composition at an Australian conservatorium, and of course I am around people studying opera and hear them practising and performing in the various concerts that are on. I even accompanied an operatic singer for a competition last year.
> 
> The thing is, I don't like opera. In all fairness I can't stand it, even after having been exposed to it for years now. To me there seems to be this thing where liking opera is seen to be cultured, an appreciation for a kind of fine art. For a while I tried listening to opera because I felt I 'should' like it, but I didn't end up liking it any more. Even my friend, another composition student feels the same way- he says he turns off Classic FM when opera comes on. I love the orchestral sound but I just can't stand the singing.
> 
> My question to the forum is what makes opera appealing to you? Although I have not read any further than the titles of the threads, it's apparent that it is well-enjoyed. I would like to hear what you have to say.


You don't mean to tell me that the dreaded Classic FM has invaded Australia,send it off to that island where you send asylum seekers.
Apart from that you don't have to like anything,either opera appeals to you or it doesn't please don't exude angst over the matter.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

I didn't know that opera had any appeal :devil:

Don't take that too seriously :lol: I have occasionally enjoyed my few forays into the genre. Like the OP notes, my impression is often of shrieking sopranos and obese baritones singing in Italian. It is just not my thing... but I thought that trying some opera in an intelligible language like German might help. It did, to a degree.

I actually got fairly fond of Berg's two operas and found Schoenberg's _Moses und Aron_ to be relatively palatable. Even Wagner's _Der Ring des Nibelungen_ caught my attention for a while.

But I remain a tourist, not a convert. Perhaps I'll give it another listen sometime...


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

brotagonist said:


> I didn't know that opera had any appeal :devil:
> 
> Don't take that too seriously :lol: I have occasionally enjoyed my few forays into the genre. Like the OP notes, my impression is often of shrieking sopranos and obese baritones singing in Italian. It is just not my thing... but I thought that trying some opera in an intelligible language like German might help. It did, to a degree.
> 
> I actually got fairly fond of Berg's two operas and found Schoenberg's _Moses und Aron_ to be relatively palatable. Even Wagner's _Der Ring des Nibelungen_ caught my attention for a while. But I remain a tourist, not a convert. Perhaps in time...


:lol:

At least you've tried it. Not like some people who dismiss it without even listening or watching.


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

I don't see what is not to get about opera. Its just wonderful, poetic, dramatic; a good opera is a real piece of absolute theatre. When the acting, story and music all work together its quite miraculous. 

Honestly, I don't think its too difficult to look past the minor details like perhaps an in-congruency between the look of the singers and their characters, and if you can do that then I think you'd have no soul not to like opera.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

brotagonist said:


> I didn't know that opera had any appeal :devil:


oh, but *it does*... and then it does *some more*.


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## Winterreisender (Jul 13, 2013)

I like opera because it is a total art work. By that I am not specifically referring to the Wagnerian Gesamtkunstwerk. I would have said that even the earliest operas can achieve a fine blending of the arts, e.g. when the music is complemented by tasteful staging and an engrossing plot.

But sadly too many operas seem to lack an engrossing plot. When that is the case, I simply put the CD on and forget about the plot or the visual aspects because the music is so good.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

Up until recently, I've been a tourist as well.

My first visit to the world of opera was getting an LP set of Carmen (I know it had Freni as Micaela - I think it might have been the one with Price as Carmen) out of the library in the early 1970's. The music was super-easy to appreciate, the singing, especially Freni's, was great. I liked the big booklet of the libretto with which to follow along.

The next one I tried was Beethoven's Fidelio (Nonesuch LP). No libretto was provided with this one, so it was a little harder to get into.

Third came The Magic Flute with Solti conducting on London/Decca. I loved this one too, but only the first half of it. I found the second half (especially the Sarastro parts) to be heavy going, until it got to the Papageno/Papagena bit near the end.

That was pretty much it for about thirty years or so, outside of occasional filmed or TV operas, like Zefferelli's La Traviata or some TV production of Turandot. 

Recently, I've been experimenting again. I've only seen one opera live (Tosca - about two years ago). But, I've watched, or fast-forwarded through, about a hundred library DVDs in the last year or so, and bought several to watch at greater leisure.

So, far, outside of that very first Carmen and Magic Flute, nothing has given me greater pleasure than listening to really early opera - from the madrigal comedies of Vecchi, that I'm currently viewing and listening to, through the operas of Monteverdi. As I work my way forward, I expect I'll find some more that I can really appreciate.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

Jobis said:


> I don't see what is not to get about opera. Its just wonderful, poetic, dramatic; a good opera is a real piece of absolute theatre. When the acting, story and music all work together its quite miraculous.


I understand this, but opera doesn't work for me because it doesn't fit into the way I consume entertainment or the arts.

I don't watch much television or film at all. The few films I watch, I watch only once. I don't want to hear those old stories from opera. I have other interests. I like to read. I rarely read the same book twice: there are so many I have yet to read. Instrumental music fits so well with the way I approach music. It is multi-utilitarian for me, serves me on so many levels, and yet 'robs' me of only one sense while giving me so much.


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

brotagonist said:


> I understand this, but opera doesn't work for me because it doesn't fit into the way I consume entertainment or the arts.
> 
> I don't watch much television or film at all. The few films I watch, I watch only once. I don't want to hear those old stories from opera. I have other interests. I like to read. I rarely read the same book twice: there are so many I have yet to read. Instrumental music fits so well with the way I approach music. It is multi-utilitarian for me, serves me on so many levels, and yet 'robs' me of only one sense while giving me so much.


I suppose that makes sense. I think perhaps Opera is just something you either love or are indifferent to.


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## expat (Mar 17, 2013)

The appeal is 3 more dimensions - poetry, drama and the voices. So Wagner would be Beethoven to the power of 5.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

Imma take a different tack 

You don't like the sound of voices? You think the music is less interesting than Schubert lieder or Shostakovich Symphonies? 

Then leave it. You don't have to like opera. You don't have to get into the stage and stuff. The dumb storylines. 

But opera is music. Just keep in the back of your mind that the greatest composers wrote some of their greatest music in operas. It's always there, if you're ready, and it's pretty special


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

For me, the appeal of opera is the cleverness of having the music add a layer of nuance or commentary to the stage action. In _The Magic Flute_, the characters' social classes are symbolized by music: the peasant-like Papageno's first aria is a strophic lied common to folk music while the high and mighty Queen of the Night is given the kind of Baroque aria that, in the 17th century, would have marked her as a highborn character. In _Marriage of Figaro_, Figaro sings a cavatina in which he claims he will pretend to play along with Count Almaviva even though he, Figaro, will really be the one in charge; accordingly, the first stanza is cast as a minuet to symbolize the courtly world Almaviva occupies and that Figaro is pretending to submit to.

Sometimes this reinforces what is happening in the story; other times it gives the audience a special perspective of things that the characters themselves are not even "aware" of. A well-known example: the appearance of the Siegfried leitmotif at the end of _Die Walküre_ as Wotan, having trapped Brünnhilde in the ring of fire, boldly declares that only the man who can defeat his spear will penetrate the fire. That man, of course, winds up being Siegfried.

The most intriguing moments in opera are the ones where the composer violates the genre's usual understanding that the characters don't really "know" they're singing; from their perspective, they're just talking and only we, the audience, realize they're singing. The classic example in this case is the wonderfully creepy "mad scene" in _Lucia di Lammermoor_ where Lucia, having been pushed to the brink of insanity, is suddenly aware there's an orchestra accompanying her and starts singing to the flute that, in contrast to the other characters on the stage who look on in bafflement, she can now hear.


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

Opera gives us great music, placed in the context of a story, which gives it more meaning and strength. It's the ultimate form of expression, a combination of music, poetry, plot, theater and dance.


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

Dongiovanni said:


> Opera gives us great music, placed in the context of a story, which gives it more meaning and strength. It's the ultimate form of expression, a combination of music, poetry, plot, theater and dance.


I don't want to put down opera but I think it's ridiculous to say that music has more meaning when it's placed in the context of a story. Bach's music has meaning enough to me and that is absolute music.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Piwikiwi said:


> I don't want to put down opera but I think it's ridiculous to say that music has more meaning when it's placed in the context of a story. Bach's music has meaning enough to me and that is absolute music.


I took it that he meant _precise emotional meaning_ in the sense that instrumental music is very abstract and as such _meaningless_ - we can all impart it whatever meaning we find in it which can vary greatly, as many threads have shown, whereas with opera there is a very clear meaning.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

The standard appeal is "But officer, I didn't know I was singing obscenities, I don't speak Italian."


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## AegnorWildcat (Sep 4, 2013)

The absolutely critical component needed for enjoying opera is understanding what is going on.

Red (from Shawshank Redemption) may not need to understand the words of "Sull'aria...che soave zeffiretto" to appreciate it, but to appreciate the entirety of Le nozze di Figaro, you need to know what people are saying. That's why I think such things as NPR broadcasting an opera via radio is fairly useless in getting people into opera. Only those that know the opera well (or speak the language) can properly enjoy the opera in that medium.

When I first heard a recording of Rigoletto, I had no idea what was going on and could not appreciate the opera as a whole. But after I'd actually seen the opera (with supertitles), and read about it, I can listen to my recording of it with Pavarotti, Sutherland, and Milnes, and be enthralled by it. My imagination can easily fill in the details of staging, and I know what the characters are saying.

That is what makes opera different than other forms of musical art. When listening to the Fauré Requiem, it may assist in enjoyment to know what is being sung, but it certainly isn't a requirement for enjoying it. The same with the visuals. Sometimes helpful, definitely not necessary. For opera, knowing what is being said is an absolute requirement for enjoying an opera.

Sorry, got carried away and wrote too much.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Piwikiwi said:


> I don't want to put down opera but I think it's ridiculous to say that music has more meaning when it's placed in the context of a story. Bach's music has meaning enough to me and that is absolute music.


Some of the time, yes; but I think that some of Bach's most moving music was written in conjunction with the Christian story that had so much intimately meaningful meaning for him. St Matthew Passion, anyone?


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> I think that some of Bach's most moving music was written in conjunction with the Christian story that had so much intimately meaningful meaning for him.


It has also been argued, pretty plausibly in my opinion, that even some of Bach's purely instrumental works, where there is no obvious message, are subtly symbolic of his Lutheranism. The historian Michael Marissen gives a pretty compelling reading of the Fifth Brandenburg Concerto in these terms; the reading is also summarized in Richard Taruskin's Oxford _History of Western Music_.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Eschbeg said:


> It has also been argued, pretty plausibly in my opinion, that even some of Bach's purely instrumental works, where there is no obvious message, are subtly symbolic of his Lutheranism. The historian Michael Marissen gives a pretty compelling reading of the Fifth Brandenburg Concerto in these terms; the reading is also summarized in Richard Taruskin's Oxford _History of Western Music_.


I hope pyramids aren't mentioned...


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Whilst opera is surely loved because it is such a multi-faceted art form, the primary appeal of opera is the great voices and technique of opera singers. These are vocal athletes of the highest calibre, and what they do can be very impressive. Appreciating opera starts with appreciating the talent of the singer. When I first got into opera (age 28) I remember listening to things like Maria Callas Casta Diva or Jussi Bjorling/Victoria De Los Angeles in La Boheme and just being bowled over.

When I hear great singing I can be thrilled, inspired, uplifted or moved to tears (Hope that's not just me!)

And then there's the great tunes  Where would they be without them?


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

AegnorWildcat said:


> The absolutely critical component needed for enjoying opera is understanding what is going on.
> 
> Red (from Shawshank Redemption) may not need to understand the words of "Sull'aria...che soave zeffiretto" to appreciate it,


it always makes me chuckle that Sull'aria, of all things, is used as an example of the most beautiful thing in the world. By that I don't mean to say it's not beautiful, because it is, but knowing what it is about knocks it off that lofty pedestal. He was truly lucky not to know what the girls were up to :lol:


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Alexander said:


> When I hear great singing I can be thrilled, inspired, uplifted or moved to tears (Hope that's not just me!)


nah, you're not alone. I welled up the other day at L'Orfeo during Possente spirto. I felt a bit weird because the singer was 5 feet away but if he noticed I hope it made him feel like a job well done 

great singing (of great tunes) is something else; nothing gets closer to the devastating (in a good way) effect it can have on emotions.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I think there's something primal in the human voice expressing emotion.
Its pure emotion.
The first instrument.
And singing takes it beyond what just words can express.
Add the power of an orchestra and the genius of a composer
and you have magic.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Some of the time, yes; but I think that some of Bach's most moving music was written in conjunction with the Christian story that had so much intimately meaningful meaning for him. St Matthew Passion, anyone?


Wonderful production of one of my favourite pieces of music.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Theater, sets, costumes, story, acting, Drama, Comedy, laughter, tears, tragedy and slapstick situations, & music, singing = 
A SPECTACLE!

Borrow or rent the Ingmar Bergman film of "Magic Flute" and the Franco Zeferelli film version of "La Traviata" (spoiler alert, she dies in the end 

You've got to see it all happening, follow the story, characters, to realize what a full "entertainment" a good opera is.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Itullian said:


> I think there's something primal in the human voice expressing emotion.
> Its pure emotion.
> The first instrument.
> And singing takes it beyond what just words can express.
> ...


Beautifully put Itullian


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

This is a very intersting thread. Thanks Annie for the bump!



Itullian said:


> I think there's something primal in the human voice expressing emotion.
> Its pure emotion.
> The first instrument.
> And singing takes it beyond what just words can express.
> ...


Very well put. The human voice is surely the most precious musical instrument. It adds to the magic.



deggial said:


> I took it that he meant precise emotional meaning in the sense that instrumental music is very abstract and as such meaningless - we can all impart it whatever meaning we find in it which can vary greatly, as many threads have shown, whereas with opera there is a very clear meaning.


Yes, this is how I meant it.

For example, take the well known opera La Boheme. In act 1 our love couple meets, and falls in love, while singing some very gorgeous melodies solo and at the end in a duet. In act 4 when Mimi is dying the couple talk of that time when they first met, Puccini brings back those melodies. To hear these melodies again you are also taken back to that moment which makes the final scenes more intens and you just get all choked up.


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

Alexander said:


> When I hear great singing I can be thrilled, inspired, uplifted or moved to tears (Hope that's not just me!)


Same here ! I attended the ROH's Figaro some weeks ago. I'm still very impressed by the experience. I'm a great admirer of Forman's epic movie "Amadeus" and when I left the opera house I thought of what the character Salieri said about Le Nozze:


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

I haven't read this entire thread, but I did want to put in my thoughts.

For me the appeal of opera is that music can add almost undreamed-of dimensions to a plot or to mere words. I've always been a theatre fan and still am, yet I'm more than willing to acknowledge that opera can do things that theatre, and even the American musical theatre, can't do. To cite just one example: Lucia's long-held high C at the conclusion of Act II of _Lucia di Lammermoor_. With that single note Donizetti conveys Lucia's mental collapse and makes her Mad Scene dramatically plausible. In a play, that sort of thing would be done with staging and dialogue, yet it's hard to imagine a director or playwright quite equalling Donizetti's combination of _conciseness_ and visceral excitement. And most "Broadway" voices couldn't hit, let alone sustain, a high C! Or if they could, they probably couldn't imbue it with the needed power and emotion.

Another thing I like about opera is that its characters have an almost mythic stature; they "live on" in a way that's a bit different from characters in plays and musicals. It's hard to explain, but let me put it this way. If I saw _Death of a Salesman_ with a bad Willy Loman, I would be much more disappointed than if I saw _Tosca_ with a weak Tosca, the reason being that opera involves (continuous) singing as well as acting. A dramatically stiff Tosca could still give satisfaction if her singing was wonderful -- _and that satisfaction would be a contribution to my accumulated experience of the opera and role_. I'm likely going to experience many more performances of _Tosca_, not only in the opera house but also on the radio and recordings; every Tosca, or _Tosca_, doesn't have to be definitive. In a play, a badly delivered monologue is just that; in Miller or Ibsen or Chekov, the mere sound of an actor's voice couldn't excuse weak acting (though _maybe_ it could in Shakespeare). By contrast, in opera the sheer sound of a singer's voice is a vital component of the characterization. And the music can always speak to you, almost in spite of the artists performing it.

Last but not least, opera gives a pleasure that's purely musical. One of my earliest "opera memories" (from about 15 years ago) is listening to Alidoro's aria from _La Cenerentola_ and marveling at the key change about midway through. Then there was Jennifer Larmore's singing of the rondo finale, with the coloratura of the last section tossed of so smoothly and seemingly on a couple of breaths. Of course, there are unforgettable numbers in musicals and great scenes in plays, but in my opinion operatic music is uniquely rich and subtle and opera singers have abilities beyond those of even the best Broadway-type voices -- something that becomes clear when you compare, say, the great Barbara Cook singing "Glitter and Be Gay" from Bernstein's _Candide_ to Dawn Upshaw (whose voice is tonally not unlike Cook's) singing the same.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

deggial said:


> nah, you're not alone. I welled up the other day at L'Orfeo during Possente spirto. I felt a bit weird because the singer was 5 feet away but if he noticed I hope it made him feel like a job well done
> 
> great singing (of great tunes) is something else; nothing gets closer to the devastating (in a good way) effect it can have on emotions.


Exactly right......................


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Bellinilover said:


> For me the appeal of opera is that music can add almost undreamed-of dimensions to a plot or to mere words.


Well said. I would add, and dance theater adds another dimension to the whole experience; if the plot and the singing and the dancing all work together the whole experience can be indescribably wonderful.



> Another thing I like about opera is that its characters have an almost mythic stature; they "live on" in a way that's a bit different from characters in plays and musicals.


Good point!


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

I love music. That's the biggest thing and if I don't like the way a piece works musically I am going to be at least somewhat unsatisfied even if everything else works.

I started with classical music and would even stay away from symphonies with (solo) vocals (for the most part, Beethoven's 9th always held my attention though I prefered the choral parts). But I slowly got used to the classical/art styles of singing and then recognized something about opera: it has uncommon tools for telling a story.

The expressiveness of the human voice; the power of expertly-directed orchestral forces... there's more there than can be seen on a page. And we're not even done as this is all happening on a stage before us, with sets and costumes and lighting, with dancing, acting and props. It's one thing to listen to a beautiful aria, (for me) it's something far greater to understand, to deeply feel why that aria is being sung, to watch it develop and see what happens afterward (can you guess my feelings on big act closing sextets (such as the ones Donizetti managed/contrived so frequently?))

There's so much that goes into an opera production that even if a few things are off we can still be left with greatness. And when everything is firing... this to me is the height of expressiveness.

If I want to know what happens I might read facts and statements, if I want to understand why things happened I might read a novel, but if I want to feel the emotions, to access the power of the story I'll watch an opera.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

This article may go some way to explain the appeal.

Is Opera Relevant?


" ... Until you have experienced powerful live acoustic singing you can have no real appreciation for what the human voice can do or what it's like to be on the receiving end of such raw emotional transfer ... "


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

sospiro said:


> This article may go some way to explain the appeal.
> 
> Is Opera Relevant?
> 
> ...


Interesting quote. This article will be useful in the discussion of this thread:

http://www.talkclassical.com/28391-who-using-microphones.html


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I never cared for vibrato laden soprano vocals, so I've been looking for some operas with more choral and male vocals. I'm thinking of picking up a recording of Mussorsky's Boris Godunov. Listening to Rostropovich's recording on YouTube, I'm enjoying this one!


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

Baroque traditionally has less vibrato (though Danielle de Niese puts the lie to that) so you may want to look into Handel and Rameau's work.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

starthrower said:


> I never cared for vibrato laden soprano vocals, so I've been looking for some operas with more choral and male vocals. I'm thinking of picking up a recording of Mussorsky's Boris Godunov. Listening to Rostropovich's recording on YouTube, I'm enjoying this one!


You can't go wrong with Billy Budd.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

For me it is the same as for film it is how a story is told in many ways by form. It is not only the words and the plot but it is the atmosphere that are formed through music. It is also the clarity I really dislike when drama is subtle when someone is happy I hear a happy sounding song when someone is sad I hear a sad sounding song and so on.
And a lot of my favorite music is in operas.


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