# Which characters from Wagner's operas do you find the most interesting?



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Which characters do you find the most interesting?
And why?
Thanks


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## Monsalvat (11 mo ago)

Definitely Wotan; we see the turbulence and conflict within him boil over in Act II of _Die Walküre_ and see his own development over three generations. He is a god, but he is more human than he might seem.

I would also suggest Hans Sachs as a contender, as we see multiple sides of him which leaves us with a more complex set of ideas about him.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Wotan is a rather obvious choice, I agree also with Hans Sachs who is one of the few humanly human characters. The split-personality Kundry is probably too odd without some Jungian or other depth psychology.
Others seem to have their tensions resolved in ways we would not accept in a realist novel. E.g. Tristan and Isolde. Tristan killed her fiancé, she nursed him back to health as Tantris and they fell in love. But now she seems more angry about him only acting as an intermediate for Marke than about the old deception (and Morold). Then the potion restores/reveals the passion of the earlier episode
I recall a discussion years ago at a SF/fantasy forum where someone made the distinction between character-driven, plot-driven and idea-driven SF/fantasy books/sagas (or at least that's how I recall it, it's probably not exhaustive, I could imagine atmosphere or world driven as another aspect). Most literature has a mix of them but it seems fair to say that a lot of Wagner is idea-driven and that implies some strange, not terribly realistic/rounded characters. I.e. there are lots of ideas about the conflicts of power, passion, redemption etc. that are brilliantly driving these operas but the characters are more conduits for these ideas and dramatic emotions.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

The orchestra y far. And it is a character which narrates, comments, suggests...


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

The woodbird in Siegfried ... a coherently talking bird is far more interesting that all the rest put together!


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Becca said:


> The woodbird in Siegfried ... a coherently talking bird is far more interesting that all the rest put together!


The bird is certainly more eloquent than the Dragon...


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Loge. Cunning, highly intelligent and the architect behind everyone’s misfortunes given that he ostensibly misled Wotan regarding paying off Fasolt and Fafner and we all know how that ended!


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

None. It's opera; the most important thing to me is that the piece in question is conducted and sung well. If thoughtful characterization is what I am after, I'll pick up a good book.


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

Sixtus Beckmesser - often dismissed as merely an anti-Semitic stereotype (the greedy, conniving, ingratiating Jew) , truth be told Beckmesser is one of the most three dimensional and relatable human characters that Wagner ever created. Like Judas, he is not a god or a myth, but an ordinary man trying to do extraordinary things, by whatever means necessary...


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Some of Wagner's characters are among the most striking in opera, but few of them seem like people we could actually meet. Kreisler jr in post #3 describes Wagner's "idea-driven" dramaturgy well. On an emotional level, I often feel that his characters are caught up and swept along by forces larger and more powerful than they are, like the Dutchman's ship forced to ride the waves until he finds redemption in love, or the vessel that bears the unwilling Isolde to Cornwall. In the case of Tristan and Isolde this is actually the essence of their story in the most concentrated form, with the lovers expressing the desire to lose their personal identities in union with each other and with the "Welt-Atems wehendem All" that Isolde reaches at the end, at least in her own mind.

I suppose I don't really have a favorite character, but I think Kundry, whom Leonie Rysanek said contains "all women," may be the most fascinating creation in all of opera.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Probably Loge for me, too - I've found tricksters, shapeshifters etc. tend to be more interesting than most mythological characters.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

I think Kundry is his most complex and interesting character. She is distilled from several characters from religious and historical lore.

I regard the Kundry-Parsifal scene in Act 2 as one of the most incredible miracles of art. Wagner's Sistine Chapel.


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

Kundry for the female, and Hans Sachs for the male!


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

Hagen is another human, all too human Wagnerian persona that I absolutely adore.

The influence of Machiavelli and Shakespeare is clear here and Hagen seems to me to be a synergy of the scheming, duplicitous Iago and the portentous, tautological Polonius.

Francis Urquhart, eat your heart out… ❤


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## Agamenon (Apr 22, 2019)

*Hagen* is a strong character, words and music are a miracle.

Others(runners up): 
Isolde: a complex woman wrapped in sensual music.
Hans Sachs: Wise man, wise words.
Amfortas: devastated soul.


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## sAmUiLc (9 mo ago)

Ortrud in Lohengrin. She is a Lady Macbeth.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

sAmUiLc said:


> Ortrud in Lohengrin. She is a Lady Macbeth.


I'll second that. I think her scenes in _Lohengrin_ are fully worthy of Lady Macbeth's, and may represent Wagner's most trenchant musical portrayal prior to the _Ring._


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## Dick Johnson (Apr 14, 2020)

Hans Sachs - because of his humanity he exhibits as well as the personal growth of his character throughout the opera and reflected in the microcosm of the Wahn monologue. The most sympathetic character in Wagner for me.

Loge also gets a vote for importance beyond superficial appearances - he is certainly not a well-developed character in the narrative but central to the entire Ring plot behind the scenes.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Loge is not really a character. I have seen the comment that he is more an elemental spirit than a "god" and he certainly fades into that rôle after Rheingold. 
One might also think that in Rheingold Loge is partly an "externalisation" of Wotan's subconscious, like Brunnhilde in Die Walküre. Wotan kidded himself with Loge's help that he could get out of the bargain with the Giants without problems. Similarly, Loge is then needed as sidekick to deceive Alberich, not because Wotan wouldn't be sufficiently smart and ruthless but because as Lord of contracts, he cannot do it directly himself.
A bit like the potion in Tristan & Isolde that "only" makes the real desire explicit, it obviously does'nt creat the passion.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Kreisler jr said:


> Loge is not really a character. I have seen the comment that he is more an elemental spirit than a "god" and he certainly fades into that rôle after Rheingold.
> One might also think that in Rheingold Loge is partly an "externalisation" of Wotan's subconscious, like Brunnhilde in Die Walküre. Wotan kidded himself with Loge's help that he could get out of the bargain with the Giants without problems. Similarly, Loge is then needed as sidekick to deceive Alberich, not because Wotan wouldn't be sufficiently smart and ruthless but because as Lord of contracts, he cannot do it directly himself.
> A bit like the potion in Tristan & Isolde that "only" makes the real desire explicit, it obviously does'nt creat the passion.


I'd say that Loge is neither more nor less a personage than most of Wagner's characters, the cast of _Meistersinger_ being a deliberate exception. Characters functioning as aspects of each other's psyche, rather than as separate, rounded individuals, is a basic part of Wagner's unique, mythopoeic dramatic method, beginning with Vanderdecken in _Der Fliegende Hollander._ By the time we get to _Parsifal,_ we have a dream world in which there are no real people at all but a single overarching psyche of which all the characters are mutually influential functions. What's always amazed me is Wagner's ability to make these symbolic beings seem real in their own terms, emotionally potent, engaging, and memorable.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Dick Johnson said:


> Hans Sachs - because of his humanity he exhibits as well as the personal growth of his character throughout the opera and reflected in the microcosm of the Wahn monologue. The most sympathetic character in Wagner for me.
> 
> Loge also gets a vote for importance beyond superficial appearances - he is certainly not a well-developed character in the narrative but central to the entire Ring plot behind the scenes.


Loge is the intellectual in the _Ring._ He's completely cerebral, uninfluenced by any emotion except amusement. That makes him refreshing in a Wagnerian cosmos, although someone like that in real life might be diagnosed a sociopath.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Loge is not an interesting character IMO because he has no skin in any of the games of the "Ring" (and this is a rather implausible stance within the world of these operas). This seems more evidence that he isn't really a god but, like Erda, more an elemental spirit. (The similarly elemental Rhinemaidens do have skin in the game because their gold got stolen.) He doesn't seem to care for anything, he seems unaffected by the weakening due to lack of Freya's apples etc. Consequently, he fades to merely instrumental flickering in the magic fire music, two operas before the other gods fade. When water and fire consume Valhalla and the gods at the end, I wouldn't see this as "Loge having won" but as further indication of disenchantment, from now on water is water and fire is just fire, not Loge.


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## Monsalvat (11 mo ago)

Kreisler jr said:


> Loge is not an interesting character IMO because he has no skin in any of the games of the "Ring" (and this is a rather implausible stance within the world of these operas). This seems more evidence that he isn't really a god but, like Erda, more an elemental spirit. (The similarly elemental Rhinemaidens do have skin in the game because their gold got stolen.) He doesn't seem to care for anything, he seems unaffected by the weakening due to lack of Freya's apples etc. Consequently, he fades to merely instrumental flickering in the magic fire music, two operas before the other gods fade. When water and fire consume Valhalla and the gods at the end, I wouldn't see this as "Loge having won" but as further indication of disenchantment, from now on water is water and fire is just fire, not Loge.


I agree with some of what you wrote and disagree with other parts. You bring up Erda, which is a really interesting case; she and the Norns (which are little more than an extension of Erda herself) are the only actual deity-like beings in the Ring; Wotan is basically a human with a spear and some golden apples. Also, Floßhilde mentions a "father": "Vater warnte vor solchem Feind" / "Father warned us of such a foe"; this father doesn't seem to be Wotan, since he has only peripherally heard of the Rheinmaidens or their gold, so this father figure might be a counterpart to Erda. He isn't really a god, but that's because we know he is only half immortal. (Alberich mentions Loge was once his friend; I don't think it's mentioned explicitly in the libretto if Loge is half Nibelung or what exactly his ancestry is). This makes him, if anything, farther from being Erda-like, in my view; he's less of a god than the gods, and even they are really not all that god-like. 

But Loge doesn't vanish at the end. His music appears in _Siegfried_, for example at "fühltest du nie im finstren Wald?" Also his music is (for obvious reasons) important for the ending of _Siegfried_, starting from the Siegfried/Wanderer confrontation and the orchestral interlude which follows. He's mentioned by name in the Norn scene, and we find out that he had openly defied Wotan between _Das Rheingold_ and _Die Walküre_ by turning into fire and threatening Wotan's spear. At the end of _Götterdämmerung_, we hear his music again as Brünnhilde picks up a torch at "Fliegt heim, ihr Raben," and she explicitly bids Wotan's ravens to send Loge back to Valhalla. As she finishes her monologue and sets the pyre aflame, we hear Loge's music again. Presumably, when Loge does return to Valhalla, he (being the demigod of fire as well as of wit) is the force behind its conflagration, having made up his mind as to whether he will burn the place down as he pondered doing at the end of _Das Rheingold_. This is the "Loge having won" proposition you mentioned in your post. In the source mythology, Loge/Loki is quite a different character, but he does end up waging war on the gods in the end. But even leaving that aside, I think that Wagner leaves enough evidence to suggest that Loge is an important character for the entire cycle.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

As I said, I think Loge becomes just a symbol for fire already at the end of Walküre and eventually mundane fire in the world after the gods. He obviously does not belong to the Valhallian gods as is clear from his famous quote at the end of Rheingold when the other gods enter Valhalla "Ihrem Ende eilen sie zu, die so stark im Bestehen sich wähnen" (this should be printed out and tacked on the walls of any president's or CEO's office...) If Loge wins, than not as a character in the play but as a force of nature. Although one point of the end does seem to be that this is not a restoration of the primeval world dominated by elementary forces (instead of nibelungs, gods, giants) but the world of men and in my view this comes along with a disenchantment of these elemental forces.
I agree that there is a hint of a "Rhinefather" (interestingly in German there is the phrase "Vater Rhein" as old fashioned honorific for the country's most important river) who might be the first water elemental in analogy to Erda and Loge.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Who's air then?


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Rheingold seems to me a caricature on capitalism, even without Patrice Chereau's production. Three rich heiresses (old money) **** off they fortune. A group of rascals struggles for it among themselves. There are high burgoisie mixed with aristocracy headed by an alpha-male with spear and their inimical neighbors, skilled in building. There is bourgeoisie of lower social strata, but even more aggressive and unscrupulous, their primary business was metall industry. He layed hold of the gold even without marital gambling. At last, a lawyer - busyness executive - broker, whatever you like, who helped first group and wasn't destroyed in the act. Fire is his advertising identity. Did Ayn Rand like Wagner? 
Following operas are rather psychoanalytic than evidently sociological. But this theme appears again in Götterdämmerung.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

I hope I haven't offended anyone.


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## Monsalvat (11 mo ago)

ColdGenius said:


> Rheingold seems to me a caricature on capitalism, even without Patrice Chereau's production. Three rich heiresses (old money) **** off they fortune. A group of rascals struggles for it among themselves. There are high burgoisie mixed with aristocracy headed by an alpha-male with spear and their inimical neighbors, skilled in building. There is bourgeoisie of lower social strata, but even more aggressive and unscrupulous, their primary business was metall industry. He layed hold of the gold even without marital gambling. At last, a lawyer - busyness executive - broker, whatever you like, who helped first group and wasn't destroyed in the act. Fire is his advertising identity. Did Ayn Rand like Wagner?
> Following operas are rather psychoanalytic than evidently sociological. But this theme appears again in Götterdämmerung.





ColdGenius said:


> I hope I haven't offended anyone.


Far from it! Sounds like you would agree with George Bernard Shaw: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Perfect_Wagnerite


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Mein Gott! I didn't read it before. Thank you!


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Wotan is such a complex and enigmatic character . In Das Rheingold he seems to be totally amoral , like Loge . But in Die Walkure, he seems more human , vulnerable and tragic . You feel his grief at having to. strip Brunnhilde of her godhood and leaving her on a rock surrounded by fire . In Siegfried Wotan seems. to have. become more detached and. he. calmly accepts his inevitable loss of power and. resigns himself to his ultimate fate which will take place in Gotterdammerung .


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## damianjb1 (Jan 1, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> I suppose I don't really have a favorite character, but I think Kundry, whom Leonie Rysanek said contains "all women," may be the most fascinating creation in all of opera.


I find Kundry endlessly fascinating.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Wotan and Hans Sachs have always been my favorites and both are filled with complexities that I think certainly put them in the most interesting category. I do love Rheingold Alberich (don't know him so well in the other operas), particularly when its Gustav Neidlinger....Eric Owens didn't get me so much....and I think Alberich's lack of roundedness does not, for me, make him one dimenional. He feels to me like a magnificent embodiment of a member of a put down group, whose expressions come from the same place and are so virulent because of the way he has been treated.


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## Yabetz (Sep 6, 2021)

Loge and Kundry.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

ColdGenius said:


> Rheingold seems to me a caricature on capitalism











I am a communist, very much on the left, but he's...


Without wishing to open a can of worms (although, it seems inevitable that anything regarding this composer will be...:rolleyes:) I want to share an article I really like that quite accurately introduces aspects of Richard Wagner's works that I find particularly interesting: Ride of the Red...




www.talkclassical.com


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Personally I find the _Ring_ a little hodge-podge, it couldn't help but be anything but, being written off and on over 27 years. Wagner and his ideas did not remain static over this timeframe. As such, an attempt to tease out a single meaningful message from the work is not an endeavor I personally would commit time to. The _Ring_ was a proving grounds from which Wagner cultivated his mature ideas, represented in the works _Tristan_, _Meistersinger_, and _Parsifal_, in my opinion his trifecta of true masterpieces and ultimate contribution to humanity's bold endeavor. I also find these works deal more with the higher planes of spirituality, metaphysics, and philosophy, while the _Ring_ is more on the level of sociology, politics and economics, the indulgences of lesser minds.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Couchie said:


> Personally I find the _Ring_ a little hodge-podge, it couldn't help but be anything but, being written off and on over 27 years. Wagner and his ideas did not remain static over this timeframe. As such, an attempt to tease out a single meaningful message from the work is not an endeavor I personally would commit time to. The _Ring_ was a proving grounds from which Wagner cultivated his mature ideas, represented in the works _Tristan_, _Meistersinger_, and _Parsifal_, in my opinion his trifecta of true masterpieces and ultimate contribution to humanity's bold endeavor. I also find these works deal more with the higher planes of spirituality, metaphysics, and philosophy, while the _Ring_ is more on the level of sociology, politics and economics, the indulgences of lesser minds.


Though I think you understate the _Ring_'s depth a little, I agree that it couldn't have had the perfect artistic unity of the other mature operas. It's rather a miracle that Wagner was able to preserve such unity as it has despite the great changes in his musical style. But it's a unity that accommodates evolution: although the libretti were written in reverse order - sort of amusing when you think about it - the music was written in the proper order, so that as the drama becomes deeper and more complex the music follows suit. When the Rhine daughters return in _Gotterdammerung_, Wagner gives them new music that no longer evokes a fresh, naive world but a world grown older and shadowed by tragedy. It's really wonderful.


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## Yabetz (Sep 6, 2021)

Couchie said:


> Personally I find the _Ring_ a little hodge-podge, it couldn't help but be anything but, being written off and on over 27 years. Wagner and his ideas did not remain static over this timeframe. As such, an attempt to tease out a single meaningful message from the work is not an endeavor I personally would commit time to. The _Ring_ was a proving grounds from which Wagner cultivated his mature ideas, represented in the works _Tristan_, _Meistersinger_, and _Parsifal_, in my opinion his trifecta of true masterpieces and ultimate contribution to humanity's bold endeavor. I also find these works deal more with the higher planes of spirituality, metaphysics, and philosophy, while the _Ring_ is more on the level of sociology, politics and economics, the indulgences of lesser minds.


I think one thing that's important to keep always in mind is that these operas or music-dramas were intended to be performed live on a stage in front of an audience, like Shakespeare's plays, and not dissected on our hi-fi systems. So the element of spectacle comes into play, as you can see by the detail Wagner goes into in his stage directions in the scores. And seriously, I think Wagner is second only to Shakespeare in his sheer brilliant dramatic instincts. Both could take some of the loopiest scenarios and make them work dramatically. Brecht may be up there with them too. As for the Ring's overarching message, I think it's stated by the Rhine maidens at the end of Rheingold and then plays itself out: "Traulich und treu ist's nur in der Tiefe / falsch und feig ist was dort oben sich freut." Empty pomp and transience. The realization that you can't have everything. The passing of an older, somehow inadequate order of things. I think the Ring is one of the most amazing achievements in art.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Yabetz said:


> As for the Ring's overarching message, I think it's stated by the Rhine maidens at the end of Rheingold and then plays itself out: "Traulich und treu ist's nur in der Tiefe / falsch und feig ist was dort oben sich freut." Empty pomp and transience. The realization that you can't have everything. The passing of an older, somehow inadequate order of things. I think the Ring is one of the most amazing achievements in art.


_Traulich und treu ist's nur in der Tiefe / falsch und feig ist was dort oben sich freut._

"The trusted and true are only in the depths. The false and cowardly are what rejoice above."

If there's a through-line in Wagner's work, it may be this statement by the Rhinemaidens that the institutions of society and the ideas that justify them are betrayals of man's true nature, which can be realized only by looking within. Every one of Wagner's plots is an enactment of this belief.


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## Yabetz (Sep 6, 2021)

Re: the Ring, here's an interesting video illustrating the melding of various motifs during the ending of Götterdämmerung. It isn't a hodge-podge; one of the amazing things to me is the artistic control Wagner maintained over the whole project over the course of more than two decades.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Yabetz said:


> Re: the Ring, here's an interesting video illustrating the melding of various motifs during the ending of Götterdämmerung. It isn't a hodge-podge; one of the amazing things to me is the artistic control Wagner maintained over the whole project over the course of more than two decades.


Now that's something I think is truly original (and multi-dimensional) in its creation. I'm reminded of a certain member in the Classical music discussion forum who imv overrates the "narrative structural cyclic thematic processes" (or whatever) of the instrumental stuff of Brahms, Franck, Tchaikovsky


hammeredklavier said:


> With the exception of Wagner, I can't see what's so original about theirs regarding the "design" you frequently talk about. Based on what you've explained regarding that topic, it seems a bit derivative of what came before them.


he always talks like _"Rachmaninoff PC#2: thematic material of the 1st movement is tranferred to the 3rd movement! wow.. INGENIOUS!"_. It's kind of funny to me, cause frankly they don't really seem to be a new thing from, say,


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