# The 30 greatest orchestral works



## violadude (May 2, 2011)

For Christmas, my mom got me a course from "The Great Courses" company called "The 30 Greatest Orchestral Works." Here are the pieces that he chose for this course:

Vivaldi- The Four Seasons 
Bach- Brandenberg Concerto no. 2
Bach- Violin Concerto in E major
Haydn- Symphony 104
Mozart- Piano Concerto 24 in c minor
Mozart- Jupiter Symphony
Beethoven- Symphony 3
Beethoven- Piano Concerto 4
Beethoven- Symphony 9
Schubert- Symphony 9
Mendelssohn- Symphony 4
Schumann- Symphony 3
Brahms- Symphony 4
Brahms- Violin Concerto
Tchaikovsky- Symphony 4
Tchaikovsky- Violin Concerto
Smetana- Ma Vlast
Dvorak- Symphony 8
Dvorak- Cello Concerto
Rimsky-Korsakov- Scheherazade 
Strauss- Also Sprach Zarathrusta 
Mahler- Symphony 5
Rachmaninov- Symphony 2
Debussy- La Mer
Stravinsky- The Rite of Spring
Ives- Three Places in New England
Holst- The Planets
Copland- Appalachian Spring
Shostakovich- Symphony 5
Shostakovich- Symphony 10

He also included a lecture called "The ones that got away" that briefly talks about a group of honorable mentions. These honorable mentions were:

Bizet- Symphony in C
Hindemith- Mathis Der Maler Symphony
Prokofiev- Symphony 5
Walton- Symphony 1
Vaughan- Williams- Symphony 5

So what do you think about this? Are there any odd inclusions/exclusions? Any pieces on there that you would include or any changes you would make? Any pieces on the honorable mentions list that should be part of the main list or vica versa?


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

I will never understand why the Mahler entry in this sort of thing is always the 5th.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Crudblud said:


> I will never understand why the Mahler entry in this sort of thing is always the 5th.


The Adagietto perhaps? Ya, I think it's a great piece but in my opinion it's not his very best Symphony.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

30 is way too limiting, but I guess it makes sense if you're trying to teach a course. I'd just leave out the "greatest" part.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

starthrower said:


> 30 is way too limiting, but I guess it makes sense if you're trying to teach a course. I'd just leave out the "greatest" part.


Yes, this was something that annoyed me throughout the entirety of the course, was that the lecturer spoke in absolutes way too much. For example, he said during the lecture on Dvorak's Cello Concerto that it was "without a doubt, the greatest cello concerto ever written." That's quite a bloated statement right there.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Yeah, why take the dogmatic approach? Why not examine each work for it's own merits and leave out the competitive/opinionated attitude. But professors can be like that.


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2012)

Well, if you like mockery, this is a great list. For mocking.

Heigh ho.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

Well I'm biased because I own every single course that Robert Greenberg has recorded for The Great Courses. He is an amazing and dynamic presenter with a style that I absolutely love. I've listened to this course three times already since it first came out and can comment on a few things.

He does spend a good bit of the first lecture explaining the dangers of "making lists" and the rationale behind his choices. I do however think the Great Courses should have called it "30 OF the Greatest Orchestral Works" since even Greenberg states in the final lecture that some of his choices had to be omitted due to copyright issues.

Personally I do agree with the Dvorak cello concerto comment. He goes into great detail defending this claim in his earlier lecture series called "The Concerto".

While the list is not perfect (he admits that no list is) I personally found this to be a marvelous course. Like all of Greenberg's lectures that I have purchased it is well researched, detailed, and enthusiastically delivered.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

If you were teaching a course designed to give a sense of the history of orchestral music, what works would you choose?


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## Klavierspieler (Jul 16, 2011)

Schumann 3 but not 2?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Bruckner is the most obvious omission.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Olias said:


> Well I'm biased because I own every single course that Robert Greenberg has recorded for The Great Courses. He is an amazing and dynamic presenter with a style that I absolutely love. I've listened to this course three times already since it first came out and can comment on a few things.
> 
> He does spend a good bit of the first lecture explaining the dangers of "making lists" and the rationale behind his choices. I do however think the Great Courses should have called it "30 OF the Greatest Orchestral Works" since even Greenberg states in the final lecture that some of his choices had to be omitted due to copyright issues.
> 
> ...


Just to be clear, I'm not trying to insult his lectures or anything. I enjoyed them all, and he's obviously a well informed guy and a good speaker. The big absolute kind of statements just slightly irk me a little bit, personally. I'm also not insulting the decisions on the list, I just thought it would be a fun topic.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Art Rock said:


> Bruckner is the most obvious omission.


I thought the omission of Sibelius and Nielson was a bit disappointing as well.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Agree on Sibelius (either the Violin concerto or Symphony 5 would be logical choices - even though my own pick would be Tapiola), but Nielsen, as much as I love him, I would not consider an obvious candidate for the 30 orchestral masterpieces.


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## jalex (Aug 21, 2011)

I'd suggest losing Mendelssohn #4, Schumann #3, Rach #2, Tchaikovsky VC, Ives and Copland for Berlioz's _Symphony Fantastique_, Bruckner #8, Sibelius #7, Nielsen #4, Mahler #9 and Messiaen's Turangalila.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I suspect that each of us would make at least minor modifications to the list. I would at least substitute a Rachmaninov piano concerto for his symphony and maybe a Sibelius and Prokofiev symphony for one of Shostakovich and the Smetana. Overall, I think the list is quite reasonable given the requirements for a single introductory course. I also think the term, "Greatest", was likely pushed by the publisher in order to sell more copies.

I like Dvorak's cello concerto more than all the others I've heard, but it is _not_ "without a doubt the greatest".


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

After some consideration, I think the entire list is in need of an overhaul. Yeah, yeah, everyone and their grandma has a hard on for Mozart, Bach and Beethoven, but I think it should be kept to one work per composer.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Crudblud said:


> After some consideration, I think the entire list is in need of an overhaul. Yeah, yeah, everyone and their grandma has a hard on for Mozart, Bach and Beethoven, but I think it should be kept to one work per composer.


This post made me laugh 

But I agree, one piece per composer would make for a more inclusive lecture series. Any ideas about which composers you would substitute the doubles with?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Here's an attempt, trying not to let my own taste shine through too much. One per composer only.

Vivaldi- The Four Seasons 
Bach- Brandenburg Concerto no. 2
Haydn- Symphony 104
Mozart- Jupiter Symphony
Beethoven- Symphony 3
Schubert- Symphony 8
Berlioz - Symphonie fantastique
Mendelssohn- Symphony 4
Schumann- Symphony 3
Brahms- Symphony 4
Tchaikovsky- Symphony 6
Smetana- Ma Vlast
Dvorak- Symphony 9
Saint Saens - Symphony 3 (Organ)
Rimsky-Korsakov- Scheherazade 
Bruckner - Symphony 9
Strauss- Don Juan
Mahler- Symphony 9
Sibelius - Symphony 5
Rachmaninov- Piano concerto 2
Debussy- La Mer
Stravinsky- The Rite of Spring
Ravel - Piano concerto
Bartok - Concerto for orchestra
Ives- Three Places in New England
Holst- The Planets
Shostakovich- Symphony 5
Berg - Violin concerto
Messiaen - Turangalila symphony
Berio - Sinfonia


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

science said:


> If you were teaching a course designed to give a sense of the history of orchestral music, what works would you choose?


In roughly chronological order:

Monteverdi: Il Combattimento di Tancredi e Clorinda (bending the rules a little, but it's worth it)
Biber: Battalia
Vivaldi: The Four Seasons
Telemann: Viola Concerto in G major
Bach: Brandenburg concerto no. 5
Bach: Orchestral suite no. 2
Handel: Music for the Royal Fireworks
Mozart: Symphony no. 1
Haydn: Symphony no. 45
Mozart: Any horn concerto
Mozart: Piano Concerto no. 20
Mozart: Symphony no. 41
Haydn: Symphony no. 94
Beethoven: Piano Concerto no. 4
Beethoven: Symphony no. 6
Beethoven: Symphony no. 9
Rossini: William Tell overture
Berlioz: Symphony fantastique
Mendellsohn: A Midsummer Night's Dream overture
Mendellsohn: Symphony no. 2
Schumann: Symphony no. 3
Bizet: Symphony in C
Wagner: Rienzi overture
Verdi: Prelude to Act I of La Traviata
Verdi: Overture to The Sicilian Vespers
Wagner: Siegfried Idyll
Wagner: Vorspiel to Das Rheingold
Wagner: Vorspiel to Act I of Tristan und Isolde
Tchaikovsky: Symphony no. 2
Tchaikovsky: Manfred symphony
Tchaikovsky: 1812 overture
Dvorák: Carnival overture
Dvorák: Symphony no. 9
Mahler: Symphony no. 1
Mahler: Symphony no. 2
Debussy: Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun
Ives: The Unanswered Question
Mahler: Symphony no. 6
Mahler: Symphony no. 8
Ives: Three places in New England
Schoenberg: Five pieces for orchestra
Stravinsky: Le Sacre du Printemps
Prokofiev: Symphony no. 1
Vaughan-Williams: The Lark Ascending
Stravinsky: Pulcinella
Brian: Symphony no. 1
Webern: Symphony
Webern: Five pieces for orchestra
Berg: Violin concerto
Shostakovich: Symphony no. 5
Bartók: Music for strings percussion and celesta
Bartók: Concerto for Orchestra
Shostakovich: Symphony no. 7
Schoenberg: A survivor from Warsaw
Messiaen: Turangalîla symphony
Stravinsky: Canticum Sacrum
Stockhausen: Gruppen
Penderecki: Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima
Ligeti: Atmospheres
Carter: A symphony of three orchestras
Zwilich: Symphony no. 1
Carter: Three occasions for orchestra
Adams: A short ride in a fast machine
Adams: The chairman dances
Glass: Violin concerto no. 1
Carter: Symphonia: sum fluxae pretium spei
Glass: Symphony no. 4
Nyman: The piano concerto

I think I have mentioned a little more than 30 works.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

violadude said:


> This post made me laugh
> 
> But I agree, one piece per composer would make for a more inclusive lecture series. Any ideas about which composers you would substitute the doubles with?


I'd say that Art Rock's list is around what I'd go for, although I would replace that dreadful Mendelssohn symphony with his Violin Concerto in E minor. And I'd switch Ravel's piano concerto (G major or left-hand) for Daphnis.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

violadude said:


> Just to be clear, I'm not trying to insult his lectures or anything. I enjoyed them all, and he's obviously a well informed guy and a good speaker. The big absolute kind of statements just slightly irk me a little bit, personally. I'm also not insulting the decisions on the list, I just thought it would be a fun topic.


No offense was taken.  I'm just suggesting that others who have not yet heard the course reserve judgement on the presenter's logic in selecting the pieces he did. I personally would alter several of the selections myself but, after listening to Dr. Greenberg's analysis and historical context of each work, I can see why each piece was selected, whether I agree with it or not.


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## sdtom (Jul 7, 2014)

For a course he has a nice selection of material covering the major periods of classical music. I think the word greatest was included as a sales pitch item. Everyone's 30 list will be different.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Art Rock said:


> Here's an attempt, trying not to let my own taste shine through too much. One per composer only.
> 
> Vivaldi- The Four Seasons
> Bach- Brandenburg Concerto no. 2
> ...


What an excellent list! My only alteration would be Don Juan --> Also Sprach Zarathustra.


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

I don’t understand why he put Bach e major concerto instead of d or a minor


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

EvaBaron said:


> I don’t understand why he put Bach e major concerto instead of d or a minor


Neither do I, but then again, it was 10 years ago.


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