# Is there any classical music you're snobbish about?



## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

For instance, a snap judgment on Mozart involves the sniffy remark that he's too light.

Or Italian opera is cheesy and lacks the bite of German opera.

Or Wagner has too many long bits and not enough good bits.

Or Beethoven is like an anarchic muscle-bound freak who destroys all the furniture in his efforts to consume.

Or 20th century music is too far up its own orifice.

Or Baroque music is too simple and emotionless.

Or Bach is too formal?

Do you have any particular era or musician or style or genre that you hold a sneering contempt for? Somebody elses sacred cow, or a composer you think was a fake, or just didn't slice the mustard as much as others think he did.

It has to be slightly against the grain, though: I'm talking about an ill-informed snobbishness that you hold because you can't be bothered to go any deeper into whatever the opposed argument is... 

:tiphat:


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

So who's going to admit to that? But I do hate Benjamin Britten, probably as a result of being forced to play 'Perky Pizzicato' as a child. I think he's a shallow show-off, so there!


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Kieran said:


> Or Italian opera is cheesy and lacks the bite of German opera.


Well, change "Italian opera" to "French grand opera"....


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Kieran said:


> Do you have any particular era or musician or style or genre that you hold a sneering contempt for? Somebody elses sacred cow, or a composer you think was a fake, or just didn't slice the mustard as much as others think he did.
> 
> :tiphat:


Sometimes I wish that people just hushed down when the Rite of Spring premiered, and let it slide into oblivion rather than gain infamy through riot...

I just have a lot of qualms with Stravinsky. I like his early period sure enough, but I have a problem with a composer that had an identity crisis like he did. He said a lot of very mean stuff about other musicians that I thought was uncalled for, and it seemed like the fame and influence got to his head so he felt he had the right to say it all. Also, certain things he believed about music, one thing in particular that it's _bad _to come up with imagery or stories when listening to music, really bothers me. If he honestly had those ideas when writing his newer period music, what's the point of _me _listening to it? I'm not going to get anything that I really yearn out of it, since he rejected my own principles of how to enjoy music. We do not align. Also, the fact he pretty much gave up on his Russian roots in his mad fit of revenge. Petrushka and all that, it's Russian melodies using cosmopolitan/french impressionism. I can't consider him a Russian composer after that time, he is a Cosmopolitan Impressionist in my book. And that's the only way I will come to appreciate him in the end, when that comes.

He would probably hate me too, since I love Glazunov's music so much and he HATED Glazunov, so, I'm just fine with it. :lol:


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

I'm kinda snobbish about Viennese waltzes. The Strauss dynastic product. I look on it as easy chocolate box gloss, but no depth or impact. I never once met a waltz that didn't make me chuckle, but I also never met one that provoked any thought other than to wonder what time of day it was...


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## Norse (May 10, 2010)

Light Viennese music (waltzes, polkas etc) for me too. (Sometimes I wonder if it is, or should be sorted under "classical music" at all.) 

I also have a similar thing with some 'overly light and pleasant' 19th century chamber music (often string quartets.) It has that 'salon' feeling and just reminds me of those stiff high society parties in movies.  Sometimes I wonder if that's the sort of thing people who don't like classical music hear in their minds when they think of classical music.

I think I might be snobbish and anti-snobbish at the same time here.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

My "snaps" are more positive, like "Morton Feldman is an acquired taste" or "You just haven't heard the right John Cage pieces.":lol:


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Norse said:


> I also have a similar thing with some 'overly light and pleasant' 19th century chamber music (often string quartets.) It has that 'salon' feeling and just reminds me of those stiff, high society parties in movies.  Sometimes I wonder if that's the sort of thing people who don't like classical music hear in their minds when they think of classical music.


I am pretty sure it is. Problem is, I feel (at least for now) in a similar way about most opera other than Wagner (and maybe Weber, but I have not yet listened to his "Freischütz"). It's not really a question of "German vs. Italian" but "Wagner vs. everybody else", I tried listening to Mozart's operas and could not bring myself to enjoy them either. Every time I see this picture in my mind of high society powdered wigs sitting in their boxes, eating, drinking, gossiping, staring at ladies in evening gowns, all that accompanied by "pretty" background music. Now, Wagner's music, on the opposite, is not "pretty", it is beautiful in a way that completely captures one's attention, almost like some mighty natural element, and, at least for me, a lot of it also carries powerful associations with nature: the forest, the Rhine, the sea, the stormy sky, etc., something totally opposite to powdered wigs and evening gowns.

I know, it sound weird. I really hope someday I will be able to overcome this "internal block", and for now I'll just explore other genres.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

No, I'm never snobbish about anything as long as I don't have to listen to the vacuous tripe.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

I can be snobbish about new music. Stereotyping it as ugly. Brahms is boring and dense. Mahler Symphonies don't know when to end. lol Alright I probably offended 90% of the site with those 3 comments. lol


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

neoshredder said:


> Brahms is boring and dense. Mahler Symphonies don't know when to end. lol Alright I probably offended 90% of the site with those 3 comments. lol


You are SOOOOO lucky that you like Mendelssohn or I might have had to block you :lol:


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I fail to see what there is, even by way of remote possibility, to be snobbish about. If one simply appreciates the finest music properly and dismisses the tastes of lesser people who prefer something else, that's hardly snobbery -- it is simply a sober and non-judgmental reflection of fact.
Well, certainly in my case! :wave:


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I'm not snobbish, more anti-snobbish, anti-pretension (to a fault, to the level of obsession).

I used to be snobbish about things like Andre Rieu and now I quite like him. Even trashed Saint-Saens and Rodrigo as being superficial and boring and now quite like them. I even like some Holy Minimalists, but not everything they did. Same with Richard Strauss.

There are composers and things I don't like, but its less about being snobbish, more about what I just don't like to more or less degree. Eg. I got little time for a lot of opera - esp. from the wigs and Wagner, noise music, conceptual art type music, and other stuff, but its not a matter of snobbism.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Perhaps the only music that I am snobbish about is that which I find fails to give me any pleasure or is even painful to listen to... and I don't know that this could be defined as "snobbery". If there is one genre/era that often leaves me cold it would be found among certain examples of 20th/21st century music that is... as it was suggested... "too far up its own orifice." Other than that, I enjoy a broad range of music and have little use for stereotypes dismissing an entire genre or era. That applies to 20th and 21st century music as well, because quite honestly, I enjoy a great deal of it. I can also enjoy "less serious" or "light" music such as the Viennese bon-bons of Strauss (and others) as well as the French souffles of Offenbach. Sometimes I'm in the mood for a bon-bon or a souffle... and not the full blown seriousness of Wagner or Bach. Bel canto, Russian Romanticism, French opera, ballet, English choral music, 19th century chamber music, melodies, medieval chant... I have found wonderful music that enthralls me in almost every genre and era.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

KenOC said:


> I fail to see what there is, even by way of remote possibility, to be snobbish about. If one simply appreciates the finest music properly and dismisses the tastes of lesser people who prefer something else, that's hardly snobbery -- it is simply a sober and non-judgmental reflection of fact.
> Well, certainly in my case! :wave:


If you're being serious, thats a definition of snobbism that turns it into a virtue, isn't it? KInd of oxymoronic.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Sid James said:


> If you're being serious, thats a definition of snobbism that turns it into a virtue, isn't it? KInd of oxymoronic.


Thank you for adding the "oxy"! But let me expand.

(music plays in background; James Earl Jones speaks) He was a fat man. A short man. But he was tall enough that his feet reached the ground. And this is what he said. "In classical music, snobbery is not merely a virtue; it is a duty -- a stern, solemn, and often unforgiving duty. But it is a duty we must never shirk, no matter how high the cost." (music swells grandly and patriotically)


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## Rapide (Oct 11, 2011)

I don't buy into the nonsense that all music are of equal merit.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

neoshredder said:


> I can be snobbish about new music. Stereotyping it as ugly. Brahms is boring and dense. Mahler Symphonies don't know when to end. lol Alright I probably offended 90% of the site with those 3 comments. lol


Well, you offended me with all 3!

(If I were easily offended and didn't believe that some day you might end up proclaiming Mahler and Brahms and Boulez the best composers ever....)


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Rapide said:


> I don't buy into the nonsense that all music are of equal merit.


Neither do I... but it doesn't stop me from taking pleasure in Johann Strauss II, Franz Lehar, Jacques Offenbach, The Louvin Bothers, The Modern Jazz Quartet, etc... simply because they are not on the same level as J.S. Bach.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Mahlerian said:


> Well, you offended me with all 3!
> 
> (If I were easily offended and didn't believe that some day you might end up proclaiming Mahler and Brahms and Boulez the best composers ever....)


I think I might quit Classical music before I do that.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

KenOC said:


> Thank you for adding the "oxy"! But let me expand.
> 
> (music plays in background; James Earl Jones speaks) He was a fat man. A short man. But he was tall enough that his feet reached the ground. And this is what he said. "In classical music, snobbery is not merely a virtue; it is a duty -- a stern, solemn, and often unforgiving duty. But it is a duty we must never shirk, no matter how high the cost." (music swells grandly and patriotically)


There's only a few real duties I can think of, seriously. Paying taxes and in this country, voting. But none in relation to music. & unlike those kind of concrete duties, snobbism really serves no positive purpose.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

My more serious answer might be that, yes, I am snobbish about light classical and pop orchestras such as The Boston Pops with Arthur Fiedler (really dating myself there), performers such as Richard Clayderman who put on a classical air but were marketed to what was called the "easy listening" genre, though there was nothing easy about listening to it.

There are also Naxos albums of something called British Light music. I had never heard of that genre until recently but listening to some samples it sounds like the UK equivalent of the Americans Ferde Grofé and Leroy Anderson. It's not an atmosphere I want to cultivate.

I too get a little snobbish about the Viennese light music of the Strausses, etc.

I don't know what it is that separates these light pieces from other classical music that might be light in spirit. I just somehow feel a Mozart serenade is light years beyond the Richard Claydermans of the world. The Mozart might not be my first choice for listening but I recognize its merit.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Neither do I... but it doesn't stop me from taking pleasure in Johann Strauss II, Franz Lehar, Jacques Offenbach, The Louvin Bothers, The Modern Jazz Quartet, etc... simply because they are not on the same level as J.S. Bach.


Exactly. I recognise the originality of Arcangelo Corelli's opus 6 of concerti grossi and I can also enjoy the perhaps not as original sets by many other composers who obviously were following the Corellian format quite closely (except Handel's opus 6, which surpassed Corelli's). Nor do I suffer from any inferiority complex in doing so.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

No.

P.S.: No.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

> Do you have any particular era or musician or style or genre that you hold a sneering contempt for? Somebody elses sacred cow, or a composer you think was a fake, or just didn't slice the mustard as much as others think he did.


There are things I don't like, certainly, but "contempt"? Absolutely not. Contempt for something other people like is, in my mind, not very different from contempt for those people.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Kieran said:


> I'm kinda snobbish about Viennese waltzes. The Strauss dynastic product. I look on it as easy chocolate box gloss, but no depth or impact. I never once met a waltz that didn't make me chuckle, but I also never met one that provoked any thought other than to wonder what time of day it was...


I think you have the wrong idea,Viennese waltzes are not supposed to make you ponder the fate of mankind exactly.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Nereffid said:


> There are things I don't like, certainly, but "contempt"? Absolutely not.


Agree. There are plenty of famous composers and compositions I do not like, but that is just a matter of taste. There is no need to like everything.


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

When is something snobbery, and when is it acknowledging fact? 

At the moment I guess it would be Steve Reich... Some composers composed things that sound nice... Others that are interesting... My favourite did both... He seems to be in the unique position of having done neither :lol:

I may soon be adding Terry Riley and John Adams to this 'bottom of the pile' space in my mental tower. It's a pity, because I quite like minimalism as an idea.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Ramako said:


> It's a pity, because I quite like minimalism as an idea.


But the more minimal, the better, eh?


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

Kieran said:


> But the more minimal, the better, eh?




I mean that I think minimalism will evolve into something more significant as time passes.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Ramako said:


> I mean that I think minimalism will evolve into something more significant as time passes.


Ah right, I thought you meant that a little of minimalism goes a long way...


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## Schubussy (Nov 2, 2012)

Kieran said:


> But the more minimal, the better, eh?


'Three chords good, two chords better, one chord best.'


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

> I mean that I think minimalism will evolve into something more significant as time passes.


This being a thread about snobbery, I suppose I have to ask: "more significant to whom?"


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Weston said:


> There are also Naxos albums of something called British Light music. I had never heard of that genre until recently but listening to some samples it sounds like the UK equivalent of the Americans Ferde Grofé and Leroy Anderson. It's not an atmosphere I want to cultivate.


I know what you mean. The sort of bland, plastic, smooth-violin stuff I used to hear while having my hair styled, so it's what Taggart & I always call 'hairdressing music.'


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Mine own.....................


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

Nereffid said:


> This being a thread about snobbery, I suppose I have to ask: "more significant to whom?"


More significant to those of us who are able to acknowledge significance in its most significant form


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