# Tchaikovsky the genius



## chafik569 (Dec 14, 2016)

1812 Overture of tchaikovsky was and still is a masterpiece of the genius.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

chafik569 said:


> 1812 Overture of tchaikovsky was and still is a masterpiece of the genius.


A very warm welcome to Talk Classical chafic, is this the only piece you like from Tchaikovsky?


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## techniquest (Aug 3, 2012)

Welcome aboard!
The 1812 Overture certainly has staying power given it's continued popularity. I enjoy hearing it in it's variety of forms (my favourite recording being the National Philharmonic Orchestra / Charles Gerhardt where just about every possible 'bell & whistle' is used for a really ott experience) 
Beware, however, that there are those who are very sniffy about the 1812, so you might get some less enthusiastic replies; but it's all part of the fun on TC.


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## Guest (Dec 19, 2016)

The composer wasn't very fond of it. Have you given a close listen to the Romeo and Juliet Fantasy Overture? It is also overplayed but there is more "genius" in it than 1812.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Jerome said:


> The composer wasn't very fond of it.


as if it counts or anyone cares about it since there is a vast majority of works liked by their composers but not by other people.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

he didn't like The Nutcracker, for example, and who cares?.. it was *him* not liking the piece from the height of *his* own standards, which to the audience are of no difference to one another, since their height is unattainable for others.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Zhdanov said:


> he didn't like The Nutcracker, for example, and who cares?.. it was *him* not liking the piece from the height of *his* own standards, which to the audience are of no difference to one another, since their height is unattainable for others.


I agree that it doesn't matter whether Tchaikovsky liked it. But there are many people in the US who are overly familiar with it because, in case you don't know, it is played every year by major orchestras here on our Independence Day, often with real cannons. Likewise, the Nutcracker is played every year here in every major city at Christmas. So any criticism you hear from Tchaikovsky lovers in the US is likely due to hearing these works too frequently and wishing our fellow citizens would realize he wrote other, better music.


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## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

If I were to choose pieces that showed Tchaikovsky's genius, the awful 1812 Overture would not even be on my list; it is one of his poorest, weakest works (despite its bombast). My list would have include some of his truly great works:

Eugene Onegin
Liturgy of St John Chrysostom
Piano Trio in A minor
The Queen of Spades
Romeo & Juliet
String Quartet No 1
Swan Lake
Symphony No 6 (_Pathétique_)


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

chafik569 said:


> 1812 Overture of tchaikovsky was and still is a masterpiece of the genius.


1812 is one of the first pieces that I learned when I listen to classical music over 30 years ago. Certainly, the piece is timeless and is a remarkable composition from Tchaikovsky. Many fine performances, what is your favorite? Mine is Antal Dorati conducting Minneapolis Symphony.

On a similar note, Beethoven Wellington's Victory did not get such a high praise as 1812. It makes me wonder why?


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

Please be nice to your fellow members. Schoolyard spats - you did, oh no I didn't - are boring for other people and can lead to infractions.

Some posts have been removed or edited


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Nice that the OP likes the 1812 Overture. I don't know if he has explored Tchaikovsky's other music, but the Violin Concerto, Piano Concerto No. 1, Symphonies No.'s 4, 5 and 6 are there for the listening.

Also the Piano Trio, if OP is especially ambitious.


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

*1812 Overture With Russian Choruses*



pcnog11 said:


> 1812 is one of the first pieces that I learned when I listen to classical music over 30 years ago. Certainly, the piece is timeless and is a remarkable composition from Tchaikovsky. Many fine performances, what is your favorite? Mine is Antal Dorati conducting Minneapolis Symphony.
> 
> On a similar note, Beethoven Wellington's Victory did not get such a high praise as 1812. It makes me wonder why?


The 1812 is better appreciated if one considers the history of the French vs. Russian battle of Borodino that effectively ended Napoleon's attempt to conquer mighty Russia. Those of you unfamiliar with it might listen productively to what Denis Mickiewicz, professor emeritus of Slavic Languages and Literature at Duke University (and the founding conductor of the Yale Russian Chorus), has to say regarding the matter here:






Personally I also love the 1812 but I love it better when the cellos at the opening are replaced by actual singers (and later on a boys choir sings a Russian folk song). The opening hymn or chant is a famous one known as "Spasi, Gospodi, lyudi Tvoya" спаси, господи, люди твоя ("God, Save Thy People") and it gives a wholly different, much more authentic, urgent character to the piece when you hear a Russian choir intoning it.

And here is an excellent recording of the 1812 Overture with choirs, conducted by former Dallas Symphony conductor Andrew Litton. 




I find some people's snobbery about the 1812 tiresome, especially because most of them do not at all understand the history and musical structure of the piece. Just like any other, if you don't like it, listen to something else.

Oh, and BTW, chafik569, welcome to TalkClassical. I and many others are glad you are here.

Kind regards,

:tiphat:

George


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Speaking of Pyotr, It was nice to see Tchaikovsky show up in Rodrigo's hallucinations in Mozart in the Jungle (Season 3, Episode 9).


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Taggart said:


> Please be nice to your fellow members. Schoolyard spats - you did, oh no I didn't - are boring for other people and can lead to infractions.
> 
> Some posts have been removed or edited


Damn, I missed another dust-up.

PT faves: PC1; VC in D major; Variations on a Rococo Theme in A; Orchestral Suite 3; Symphonies (Complete, incl. Manfred); Ballets (Complete); R&J Fantasy Overture; Capriccio Italien; String Sextet in D minor.:tiphat:


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

I love the Swan Lake ballet music, the Nutcracker music is cute but overdone (especially in the American PumpkinTurkeyClaus season :lol, the first Piano Concerto, the Romeo and Juliet, the operas Eugene Onegin, Mazeppa, Queen of Spades and Iolanta, the Pathetique Symphony, the Violin Concerto, and the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, in particular among this genius's many works in different genres.

:tiphat:

Kind regards,

George


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

It is odd that Tchaikovsky thought so little of The Nutcracker, when it is probably the single-handed reason that some ballet companies survive, and often the only ballet that a casual audience ever sees. Melody is certainly Tchaikovsky's great gift, even though they sound so effortless, I understand that it was often the result of a great deal of straining, work and rework. I think his skill at orchestration is too often underrated. His popularity has also apparently resulted in a good deal of contrarian backlash. I find it difficult to listen to the 1812 Overture, mostly because it was the one piece my brother liked, and he played the record endlessly. Outside of that, I cannot think of any music by Tchaikovsky that doesn't strongly connect with me. I particularly like the four suites for orchestra. And this time of year, I particularly look forward to listening to his Symphony No. 1 (Winter Dreams). And perhaps I will put on my DVD of the Sendak version of The Nutcracker while I bake some Christmas cookies.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

The 1812 Overture is not a high point in Tchaikovsky's oeuvre in my opinion... 

I do like his Nutcracker and Swan Lake Ballets and the Romeo and Juliet Overture a lot. Aside from that not much has clicked with me.


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## Janspe (Nov 10, 2012)

I give the concertos an occasional listen and enjoy some orchestral and smaller-scale pieces to some extent, but that's as far as I've gotten with Tchaikovsky. I had my fourth symphony phase - culminating in a great live experience of it - but haven't really heard it in ages. I do return to his music every now and then, though - I'm not willing to give up, as so many people seem to revere his music, including one of my close friends. I need to understand!


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## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

Taggart said:


> Please be nice to your fellow members. Schoolyard spats - you did, oh no I didn't - are boring for other people and can lead to infractions.
> 
> Some posts have been removed or edited


I literally looked at this thread last night when it had zero replies. I saw the title and thought "oo, a stimulating discussion?" and when I saw it was only a video of 1812, I left. Here it is with two pages and moderator warnings already. 
But anyway. I agree. Tchaikovsky was a genius. Probably my favorite composer, and 1812 is a very nice work. It was one of the first classical pieces that I truly loved and is a primary reason I chose to be a musician. 
And welcome to TC, chafik. Hope the argifyin' didn't scare you off.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

chafik569 said:


> 1812 Overture of tchaikovsky was and still is a masterpiece of the genius.


Welcome. Yes Tchaikovsky was a genius and a great composer. You will find many here at TC who agrees to his music.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Janspe said:


> I give the concertos an occasional listen and enjoy some orchestral and smaller-scale pieces to some extent, but that's as far as I've gotten with Tchaikovsky. I had my fourth symphony phase - culminating in a great live experience of it - but haven't really heard it in ages. I do return to his music every now and then, though - I'm not willing to give up, as so many people seem to revere his music, including one of my close friends. I need to understand!


If you're interested in giving Tchaikovsky another chance, then I would recommend his solo piano music. It reflects a more intimate and poetic side of his style.

Particular standouts for me are The Seasons, Dumka, and the Piano Sonata Op. 37.


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## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

pcnog11 said:


> On a similar note, Beethoven Wellington's Victory did not get such a high praise as 1812. It makes me wonder why?


Maybe because it was a real low point in Beethoven's output? It is so poor, it is hardly even recognisable as Beethoven.


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

Yeah agree about that one, it is terrible, embarrassing. Not in the same class as the 1812 at all. 

:tiphat

Kind regards,

George


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

I think Tchaikovsky is at his best with the ballets, and with dance music in general...he was really into it - Swan Lake, Nutcracker, Sleeping Beauty contain some really wonderful music, and Tchaikovsky was very much in tune withe the flow and drama of the dance..."Nutcracker" - two big "Pas de Deux", characteristic Dances, Swan Lake Waltz are just some quick examples.
Of his orchestral music - I like the Violin Cto, Pfe Concerto #1, and Symphonies 1-3 - again, these seem closer to his "dance mode". Sym #6 is good too, if done right...So is R & J [Try Toscanini or Solti]
Syms 4 and 5 I can do without...It's like PIT is trying too hard to be "cosmic" - and these works are, IMO, over-performed...

As a professional orchestra musician - I always love playing the Nutcracker - wonderful music, demanding part, regardless of how many times I've played it. Syms 1-3 are great to perform, as well.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

pcnog11 said:


> On a similar note, Beethoven Wellington's Victory did not get such a high praise as 1812. It makes me wonder why?


Ah, but it did! The piece was hugely successful. It premiered with the Seventh Symphony. Both were popular but WV got more applause. The concert had to be reprised by popular demand, one paper reporting that that the audience exhibited "a general pleasure that rose to ecstasy." It raised 4006 florins for war veterans. A little later Beethoven put on another very successful concert for his own benefit featuring WV and the 8th. It was soon heard in unauthorized performances in London, which garnered great praise and resulted in a commission for Beethoven. Financially speaking, it was among his biggest successes.


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## Celesta (May 4, 2013)

The Nutcracker has some of Tchaikovsky's best music. The Grand Pas de Deux is a masterpiece, IMO, and here is the best recording of it by Kenneth Schermerhorn and The National Philharmonic Orchestra (part of the soundtrack to Baryshnikov's 1977 filmed production for ABT) starting at 1:47. The tempo is perfect and the mood is opulently romantic.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

I think he must have been a genius to compose such beautiful music like he did, even when he was at his lowest!! Love all his works!!


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Celesta said:


> The Nutcracker has some of Tchaikovsky's best music. The Grand Pas de Deux is a masterpiece, IMO, and here is the best recording of it by Kenneth Schermerhorn and The National Philharmonic Orchestra (part of the soundtrack to Baryshnikov's 1977 filmed production for ABT) starting at 1:47. The tempo is perfect and the mood is opulently romantic.


I have that video - it's my favorite Nutcracker, overall. the score is very well-done - the "Snow Pas" - Prince/Princess conclusion of Act I is great, best I've heard it.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

EdwardBast said:


> Ah, but it did! The piece was hugely successful. It premiered with the Seventh Symphony. Both were popular but WV got more applause. The concert had to be reprised by popular demand, one paper reporting that that the audience exhibited "a general pleasure that rose to ecstasy." It raised 4006 florins for war veterans. A little later Beethoven put on another very successful concert for his own benefit featuring WV and the 8th. It was soon heard in unauthorized performances in London, which garnered great praise and resulted in a commission for Beethoven. Financially speaking, it was among his biggest successes.


Wellington's Victory is a "fun" piece, and while not especially deep or moving, certainly benefits from Beethoven's basic skill and instincts, no matter what the application. A good deal of its popularity, it must be allowed, was no doubt due to the contemporary event that it marked, and it is no wonder that it played particularly well in England. Beethoven presumably calculated the effect, a brilliant idea to keep food on the table and pay for more substantive fare. A composer must eat, or risk imminent decomposing. Beethoven and Tchaikovsky both seem to have had their demons. What part of their genius found inspiration in dwelling upon or trying to rise above such difficulties. As Poe once said, never sing the Nine so well as when penniless.


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## Alfacharger (Dec 6, 2013)

Tchaikovsky was a hack. He plagiarized the 1812 Overture from Bach.:lol:


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## EnescuCvartet (Dec 16, 2016)

Zhdanov said:


> he didn't like The Nutcracker, for example, and who cares?.. it was *him* not liking the piece from the height of *his* own standards, which to the audience are of no difference to one another, since their height is unattainable for others.


He also disliked Brahms, which may say say something of his tastes. Though I suspect his disdain for Brahms was more of a personal matter than simply not liking his music.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

EnescuCvartet said:


> He also disliked Brahms,


'cause all this argument of who likes or dislikes what just does not stand.

the greats may dislike any of their thing themselves, it still remains great to us, commoners.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

I have a strange feeling O.P only made some kind of statement. 
Well, keeps the rest of us busy.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

EnescuCvartet said:


> He also disliked Brahms, which may say say something of his tastes. Though I suspect his disdain for Brahms was more of a personal matter than simply not liking his music.


Once again, this goes back to something he wrote in his diary as a teen. His later correspondence shows him coming to appreciate Brahms, with the help of friends.



Pugg said:


> I have a strange feeling O.P only made some kind of statement.
> Well, keeps the rest of us busy.


Yes. I doubt the OP should be taken at face value. The screen name might be a hint.


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

EdwardBast said:


> Ah, but it did! The piece was hugely successful. It premiered with the Seventh Symphony. Both were popular but WV got more applause. The concert had to be reprised by popular demand, one paper reporting that that the audience exhibited "a general pleasure that rose to ecstasy." It raised 4006 florins for war veterans. A little later Beethoven put on another very successful concert for his own benefit featuring WV and the 8th. It was soon heard in unauthorized performances in London, which garnered great praise and resulted in a commission for Beethoven. Financially speaking, it was among his biggest successes.


I read about the premier of VW with the Seventh and at that point of time it was a highly praised piece and was very successful for Beethoven. However, we do not see or hear much of it in the 21st century classical music concerts. Personally, I have been to many concerts for the Seventh being performed but never a concert with the WV performed. Even in classical music recordings, many world class orchestra do not select to record the WV. The WV could be one of the most underrated piece from Beethoven. I think this one of the well written piece by Beethoven. If 1812 can represent Tchaikovsky, then VW can certainly represents Beethoven. Is it too politically sensitive to record or perform WV since France was defeat by Britain? I am just curious.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Some reminiscences of meetings among Tchaikovsky, Brahms, and Grieg. T and B shared the same birthday, as it happens. I have read of another meeting, dinner, of T and B where they shared confidences of their dislike for one another's music but, having dealt with that issue, proceeded to greatly enjoy each other's company.

http://www.cmuse.org/tchaikovsky-an...mposers-of-different-temperaments-first-meet/


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