# Daniel Barenboim



## Clouds Weep Snowflakes

So let's talk about a pianist and conductor from my country; he's getting old, but I love his preformances and own several CDs of them; who else thinks he's really good? Here's a very interesting video by him on a piece I (and many others) really love:





(Though I do think his accent sounds awfully Israeli...)


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## Open Book

The Berlin Philharmonic loves him, he appears pretty often there as both conductor and pianist. Berlin Philharmonic loves older musicians in general even as they are failing a bit..Bernard Haitink, Yefim Bronfman..Berlin is a conservative outfit.

I look forward to Barenboim's Berlin concerts. In an interview he humbly called himself a bad conductor, I'm not sure why.


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## Guest

I don't care for him as a pianist. My first recording of Beethoven sonatas I ever bought were from him and I never listen to that CD. I don't mind his conducting Wagner operas.


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## Becca

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> So let's talk about *a pianist and conductor from my country;* he's getting old, but I love his preformances and own several CDs of them; who else thinks he's really good?
> (Though I do think his accent sounds awfully Israeli...)


You are from Argentina?


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## Becca

Open Book said:


> The Berlin Philharmonic loves him, he appears pretty often there as both conductor and pianist.


While they do really like him, when it came to a choice between him and Simon Rattle as Chief Conductor, they chose Rattle.


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## SixFootScowl

I have a special place for Daniel Barenboim if for no other reason than that one of my favorite mezzos, Waltraud Meier, recorded with him a lot. Waltraud is awesome:


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## Itullian

I like Danny.
I have both of his Beethoven piano cycles and enjoy them.
I enjoy his Wagner and Mozart.
His Beethoven piano concertos with Klemperer is excellent.
His Brahms piano concertos with Barbirolli are favorites.
His Bruckner is fine.
He tries a little too hard sometimes to emulate his hero, Furtwangler, at times
but overall I like his work


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## JosefinaHW

I am especially grateful to him for his production of Wagner's _Ring!_


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## Open Book

His recording of Mozart piano concerti numbers 20 and 23 with the ECO was my introduction to him. I still find his number 20 very solid, kind of a yardstick for others.


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes

Becca said:


> You are from Argentina?


Actually, I'm Israeli, but he has Israeli citizenship as well and speaks Hebrew.


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## Becca

...but like Martha Argerich, is _*from*_ Argentina


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## Rogerx

So is Barenboim, he became Jew fro duPré .


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## Larkenfield

Fritz Kobus said:


> I have a special place for Daniel Barenboim if for no other reason than that one of my favorite mezzos, Waltraud Meier, recorded with him a lot. Waltraud is awesome:


 Wow. Just magnificent. What a voice. What a woman.


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## Open Book

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> Actually, I'm Israeli, but he has Israeli citizenship as well and speaks Hebrew.


Interesting that Barenboim conducts Wagner. Is it true that Wagner's music is not played in Israel because of his anti-semitism?


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## Guest

I have always had a very high regard for Daniel Barenboim both as pianist and conductor. In several ways I think of him in much the same way as Vladimir Ashkenazy. They are of similar age, are/were very good pianists and later became very good conductors. 

I like Barenboim's piano playing, and in my opinion he's up there with the best of them. His Beethoven piano sonatas and Mozart's late piano concertos stand comparison with most others. The subject of "best Beethoven piano sonatas" often comes up on forums, and I've seen some really wonky recommendations, often put forward with great apparent knowledge, but many of which are poor in comparison with Barenboim's versions. 

As a conductor, his Bruckner symphony recordings with the Berlin Phil are excellent. He also did some very good conducting whilst with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, and I especially like the Brahms symphonies. Another very good set is his Staatskapelle Berlin recordings of Schumann's symphonies. 

His chamber work with Pinchas Zukerman and Jacqueline du Pre was outstanding. Everything they did as a threesome is worth getting hold of, especially the chamber works of Beethoven.

I've had several previous discussions concerning Daniel Barenboim on other music forums in the past, and one aspect that hasn't come up here but which seemed to be concern to some people on other forums was the way he left his wife, Jacqueline du Pre, after she contracted multiple sclerosis. He shacked up with some other woman long before his wife Jacqueline died. I'll say no more on this, as it doesn't bother me in the slightest, but I thought it worth mentioning in case anyone might be interested to delve further.


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## Guest

Open Book said:


> Interesting that Barenboim conducts Wagner. Is it true that Wagner's music is not played in Israel because of his anti-semitism?


LOL. Mention Wagner's name in Israel and you'll find it quite risky, to say the least. You'd probably need to tin hat, and a quick escape route.


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## Merl

As a pianist he's made some decent recordings (I don't have that many but what I do have are good). As a conductor, he's no different from many. There are the very good (his Beethoven cycle) and the not so good (his grandiose, slightly stodgy Schubert).


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## Open Book

Partita said:


> LOL. Mention Wagner's name in Israel and you'll find it quite risky, to say the least. You'd probably need to tin hat, and a quick escape route.


Is it actually illegal to play Wagner's music in Israel or is it just a really bad idea?

I was reading a biography of Brahms and learned that ant-Semitism was the norm in Europe at the time. Many of Brahms's contemporaries made anti-Semitic statements. Schumann was one. Brahms was one of the few who was tolerant. His best friend and collaborator was the great Jewish violinist Josef Joachim.

Perhaps Wagner was worse than Schumann and other casual anti-Semites whose music is not verboten in Israel.

I suppose I'm getting off topic here.


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## Open Book

Partita said:


> I have always had a very high regard for Daniel Barenboim both as pianist and conductor. In several ways I think of him in much the same way as Vladimir Ashkenazy. They are of similar age, are/were very good pianists and later became very good conductors.
> 
> I like Barenboim's piano playing, and in my opinion he's up there with the best of them. His Beethoven piano sonatas and Mozart's late piano concertos stand comparison with most others. The subject of "best Beethoven piano sonatas" often comes up on forums, and I've seen some really wonky recommendations, often put forward with great apparent knowledge, but many of which are poor in comparison with Barenboim's versions.
> 
> As a conductor, his Bruckner symphony recordings with the Berlin Phil are excellent. He also did some very good conducting whilst with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, and I especially like the Brahms symphonies. Another very good set is his Staatskapelle Berlin recordings of Schumann's symphonies.
> 
> His chamber work with Pinchas Zukerman and Jacqueline du Pre was outstanding. Everything they did as a threesome is worth getting hold of, especially the chamber works of Beethoven.
> 
> I've had several previous discussions concerning Daniel Barenboim on other music forums in the past, and one aspect that hasn't come up here but which seemed to be concern to some people on other forums was the way he left his wife, Jacqueline du Pre, after she contracted multiple sclerosis. He shacked up with some other woman long before his wife Jacqueline died. I'll say no more on this, as it doesn't bother me in the slightest, but I thought it worth mentioning in case anyone might be interested to delve further.


Barenboim has a son who is I believe a violinist. I don't know who the mother is. Probably not du Pre.


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## Guest

Open Book said:


> Is it actually illegal to play Wagner's music in Israel or is it just a really bad idea?
> 
> I was reading a biography of Brahms and learned that ant-Semitism was the norm in Europe at the time. Many of Brahms's contemporaries made anti-Semitic statements. Schumann was one. Brahms was one of the few who was tolerant. His best friend and collaborator was the great Jewish violinist Josef Joachim.
> 
> Perhaps Wagner was worse than Schumann and other casual anti-Semites whose music is not verboten in Israel.
> 
> I suppose I'm getting off topic here.


The subject of Wagner and anti-semitism has been a very troubled area in the past here at T-C. There have been a number of threads touching upon various aspects of the subject, often involving some quite heated exchanges. The following thread is one that I have found quite quickly that you might glance through in order to obtain some idea of the kind of thing that has been discussed here in the past:

Hitler and Wagner

Whilst as you say anti-semitism was by no means uncommon in the 19th C, I have not come across anything particularly untoward regarding Robert Schumann in this context, nor Brahms for that matter.

Rather, the main focus for discussion at T-C in the past has been Wagner, some of whose writings were explicitly anti-semitic despite Wagner having some Jewish colleagues. Principally, the matters that have singled out Wagner for special attention are (i) that he was especially admired by Hitler and other Nazi leaders, but (ii) more particularly because it is claimed by some that he used his music as a vehicle for ridiculing Jewish people, that is that the music itself is tantamount to being anti-semitic because it parodies certain Jewish traits as perceived by Wagner. On this latter matter, some members have argued vehemently both for and against this thesis.

To go any further would involve taking this delicate subject into territory beyond the scope of this thread, but I think you ought to be aware of the general situation since you have asked.


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## flamencosketches

Barenboim himself conducted Wagner in Israel, if I'm not mistaken, and it was the first time in many years. Some kind of riot ensued, I'm sure. 

Many Jewish conductors seem not to take much issue with conducting Wagner.


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes

Open Book said:


> Interesting that Barenboim conducts Wagner. Is it true that Wagner's music is not played in Israel because of his anti-semitism?


Yes, it's true, I actually contacted the Israeli Opera and asked them, and the stated so; there was one attempt to play a part of "Tristan Und Isolde" and it sparked fury.
"Anti-Semite" or not, Wagner was a great composer, and I love his Operas; and besides, if Wagner's Operas are outlaws to publicly play (though fine to sell in CDs for private use), why are Ford's cars sold and driven here without any problem?


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## Larkenfield

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> Yes, it's true, I actually contacted the Israeli Opera and asked them, and the stated so; there was one attempt to play a part of "Tristan Und Isolde" and it sparked fury.
> "Anti-Semite" or not, Wagner was a great composer, and I love his Operas; and besides, if Wagner's Operas are outlaws to publicly play (though fine to sell in CDs for private use), why are Ford's cars sold and driven here without any problem?


That's right. If those in America and Israel knew what Ford had been up to besides making cars, they'd be shocked to their fundament. It's forgotten or mostly ignored American history. Most people have no idea and seriously looked into his anti-Semitic publications that he printed for years in The Dearborn Independent. But people still bought his cars. In 1938, Ford received an award from the Nazi regime called the "Grand Cross of the German Eagle" because a certain nefarious German dictator was inspired by his ideas. It's amazing what one can find out by reading history… and that's why a lot of people read history. I wonder how many people who loathe Wagner for his views have been driving around in Fords for years?


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## starthrower

^^^
A fairly well known fact to people who do read history. I applaud Barenboim. And his late friend, Edward Said. Barenboim has been highly critical of both the Israeli, and Iranian governments. Intelligent people can see past the ****** and propaganda perpetrated by politicians. They want to live in peace and prosperity. Wagner the man is long dead, and attempts to ban performances are petty and counterproductive. 

Thanks to Fritz for that beautiful video. I was not familiar with Waltraud Meier. She is wonderful. And that venue by the sea is magnificent!

PS I abbreviated b#llshit and it was censored! :lol:


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## SixFootScowl

starthrower said:


> ^^^
> A fairly well known fact to people who do read history. I applaud Barenboim. And his late friend, Edward Said. Barenboim has been highly critical of both the Israeli, and Iranian governments. Intelligent people can see past the ****** and propaganda perpetrated by politicians. They want to live in peace and prosperity. Wagner the man is long dead, and attempts to ban performances are petty and counterproductive.
> 
> Thanks to Fritz for that beautiful video. I was not familiar with Waltraud Meier. She is wonderful. And that venue by the sea is magnificent!
> 
> PS I abbreviated b#llshit and it was censored! :lol:


As an alternate, "horsepuckey" works. :lol:


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## DavidA

starthrower said:


> ^^^
> A fairly well known fact to people who do read history.* I applaud Barenboim.* And his late friend, Edward Said. Barenboim has been highly critical of both the Israeli, and Iranian governments. Intelligent people can see past the ****** and propaganda perpetrated by politicians. They want to live in peace and prosperity. Wagner the man is long dead, and attempts to ban performances are petty and counterproductive.
> 
> Thanks to Fritz for that beautiful video. I was not familiar with Waltraud Meier. She is wonderful. And that venue by the sea is magnificent!
> 
> PS I abbreviated b#llshit and it was censored! :lol:


What I do not applaud is this self-important man who appears to think that his opinion is welcome everywhere. Like in the BBC Promenade concerts where he made a speech about Brexit which was entirely inappropriate as the matter concerned had nothing to do with him. A brilliant musician who should keep his opinions to himself more than he does. When Israel wants Wagner they will invite him to conduct it.


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## starthrower

DavidA said:


> When Israel wants Wagner they will invite him to conduct it.


And who is Israel? The music fans? The government? Is Wagner the only great composer who ever lived that had prejudices against Jews or other ethnic groups? If Israel is the democracy they claim to be why should they ban certain composers?


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## Granate

Many Spanish articles tell in-depth reports of the almost-riots that happened when Barenboim tried to play orchestral excerpts of Wagner in Israel. I think Tel Aviv was the city. I agree with startthrower's comment for standing up to propaganda and meddling in politics, and I approve that other conductors do, were them Abbado, Muti, Dudamel or Thielemann. Barenboim usually grants interviews in Spanish media every year, and there are several videos of him speaking fluent Spanish as well as German and pretty average English.

One of the musicians that surely in the orchestral world has been more time in the spotlight, thanks to a fantastic career management in my opinion. I wish it lasts for a very long time.


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## starthrower

Barenboim isn't the problem. Nor is it the music. But the reactionary authorities who think they can decide for everyone else. Extremist, self righteous politicians demanding that Israeli orchestras ban Barenboim, a Jew from performing in Israel because he dared to ask the audience if they would like to hear a piece of music from Tristan. A few protested and walked out but most stayed and listened.


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## Orfeo

starthrower said:


> And who is Israel? The music fans? The government? Is Wagner the only great composer who ever lived that had prejudices against Jews or other ethnic groups? If Israel is the democracy they claim to be why should they ban certain composers?


I agree.


If musicians, orchestras, ensembles, and theatres want to perform Wagner, in a land of democracy, then why stop them?
If there are people to want to listen and see Wagner performed, in a land of democracy, again why stop them?

In an area highly contentious like this, it is easy to overlook that art transcends man. That's how complex yet contradictory humanity is. Wagner is that complex of an artist, but his art took music on new, exalted levels never before anticipated. Barenboim is right, and please note that there have been plenty of Jewish musicians who performed Wagner's music (apparently looking more at the intrinsic value of the music per se, than at the man himself, however controversial and contentious he clearly was). Too much of this matter is politicized.


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## DavidA

starthrower said:


> And who is Israel? The music fans? The government? Is Wagner the only great composer who ever lived that had prejudices against Jews or other ethnic groups? If Israel is the democracy they claim to be why should they ban certain composers?


Israel is a land where many Jews who survived the Holocaust settled. Wagner is a composer that, rightly or wrongly, they associated with Nazism. If they don't want him played that is up to them not us or Barenboim! That happens to be democracy! Surely there are far more important things going on in the world than the music of one man. Wagner's music is probably not allowed in some of the strict Muslim countries like most Western classical music. Are we going to have a discussion about that too?


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## starthrower

DavidA said:


> Wagner's music is probably not allowed in some of the strict Muslim countries like most Western classical music. Are we going to have a discussion about that too?


You answered your own question in that those "strict Muslim countries" are not democratic. The people don't have the freedom to chose. An obvious red herring that has nothing to do with this discussion. Nietzsche is associated with Nazism. Is he banned from discussion in Israeli universities? And what about other artists favored by the Nazis? They were okay with Beethoven, Mozart, and Italian opera. There is a slippery slope when so called democratic regimes call for banning the music of classical composers or any other form of artistic expression.


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## DavidA

starthrower said:


> You answered your own question in that those "strict Muslim countries" are not democratic. The people don't have the freedom to chose. An obvious red herring that has nothing to do with this discussion. Nietzsche is associated with Nazism. *Is he banned from discussion in Israeli universities? *And what about other artists favored by the Nazis? They were okay with Beethoven, Mozart, and Italian opera. There is a slippery slope when so called democratic regimes call for banning the music of classical composers or any other form of artistic expression.


You answer your own question.The answer is no. But if people do not want to hear certain music performed why should it be? Have they an obligation any more than I have to play music in my house? Just respect the wishes of people. If they don't want to hear a certain composer it's no-one's business but there's.


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## KenOC

DavidA said:


> ...But if people do not want to hear certain music performed why should it be? Have they an obligation any more than I have to play music in my house? Just respect the wishes of people. If they don't want to hear a certain composer it's no-one's business but there's.


If people "do not want to hear certain music performed" then they can stay home or go to a movie or do almost anything except attend the performance. Nobody's dragging them to the concert hall. In fact, these people want to prevent _other _people from hearing the music, which is a form of censorship.


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## starthrower

DavidA said:


> Just respect the wishes of people. If they don't want to hear a certain composer it's no-one's business but there's.


Exactly my point. But Israeli politicians called for orchestras to boycott Barenboim. Is that necessary?


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## Granate

*Yawn* 

I thought we were going to talk about his Bruckner or tenure with the Staatskapelle Berlin.


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## DavidA

Granate said:


> *Yawn*
> 
> I thought we were going to talk about his Bruckner or tenure with the Staatskapelle Berlin.


Yes, I would have thought there were rather more pressing issues the world was concerned with.


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## starthrower

DavidA said:


> Yes, I would have thought there were rather more pressing issues the world was concerned with.


But you came here to argue about Wagner in Israel. Ok, back to Barenboim in the rest of the world...


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## DavidA

starthrower said:


> But you came here to argue about Wagner in Israel. Ok, back to Barenboim in the rest of the world...


Yes but I don't think the world is particularly concerned with what goes on on TC!


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## SixFootScowl

DavidA said:


> Yes but I don't think the world is particularly concerned with what goes on on TC!


TC Members 33,824

World pop *7,748,159,823 and counting*.

So about 0.0000437 of the world's population are members of TC. We have to work on that number.


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## starthrower

Boy, you guys can't be that dense. World as in "classical music world". What else is Barenboim known for! He's a Beethoven pianist and conductor. He's recorded a ton of Bruckner. And he's done Wagner. I think the only recording I have is the Berg Chamber Concerto he did with Boulez. Ashkenazy is another one of those pianist/conductors that never really caught my interest. Has anybody listened to Barenboim's live Beethoven sonata set! There is video on YouTube as well. I'm going listen to some of it.

I haven't become enough of a Bruckner fan to start collecting. I have the Skrowaczewski set, a few single CDs. I haven't tried any Barenboim.


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## DavidA

starthrower said:


> Boy, you guys can't be that dense. World as in "classical music world". What else is Barenboim known for! He's a Beethoven pianist and conductor. He's recorded a ton of Bruckner. And he's done Wagner. I think the only recording I have is the Berg Chamber Concerto he did with Boulez. Ashkenazy is another one of those pianist/conductors that never really caught my interest. Has anybody listened to Barenboim's live Beethoven sonata set! There is video on YouTube as well. I'm going listen to some of it.
> 
> I haven't become enough of a Bruckner fan to start collecting. I have the Skrowaczewski set, a few single CDs. I haven't tried any Barenboim.


Barenboim is known for his unfortunate and inappropriate political speeches in Britain.


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## starthrower

Okay, I'm outta here.


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## Heck148

DavidA said:


> .....If they don't want to hear a certain composer it's no-one's business but there's.


And they have every right to stay home, go somewhere else, and not hear that music...


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## wkasimer

starthrower said:


> Ashkenazy is another one of those pianist/conductors that never really caught my interest.


Ashkenazy the pianist has never interested me very much, but I think that he's a much better conductor - his Sibelius and Shostakovich recordings are particularly fine, and there's a very strong Mahler 3 on Decca.


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