# In what ways does Classical music positively effect people spiritual, mentally, etc?



## Jordan Workman (May 9, 2016)

In what ways does Classical music positively effect people spiritual, mentally, emotionally, etc? It seems to me that people who listen to Classical music regularly tend to be more spiritually inclined, emotionally stable, intelligent and witty, more romantic, less prone to violence and aggression, etc. The positive nature and beauty of this music must have a profound effect on the soul of a person.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Jordan Workman said:


> In what ways does Classical music positively effect people spiritual, mentally, emotionally, etc? It seems to me that people who listen to Classical music regularly tend to be more spiritually inclined, emotionally stable, intelligent and witty, more romantic, less prone to violence and aggression, etc. The positive nature and beauty of this music must have a profound effect on the soul of a person.


I'm skeptical that classical music has all these wonderful effects on listeners. However, all my spirituality, and I don't rate high on the scale, comes from music.


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

I tend to agree with the premise, although there are exceptions. Hitler and the Nazi state extolled Wagner, Bruckner, and other classical music composers, and they had (obviously) quite a violent and aggressive ideology.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

I don't really agree with this, and I don't see how it could be proved. Listening to music of any sort would suggest that a person is patient & has intellectual interests - and listening to classical music probably goes with having a good education, as it's a minority interest that people don't usually pick up from their environment.

Certainly the people I know and knew who like classical music are nice, kind spiritual people - but so are many of the people I know and knew who don't or didn't.

Also I hesitate because I wouldn't like people to think that because I like classical music I consider myself _more spiritually inclined, emotionally stable, intelligent and witty, more romantic, less prone to violence and aggression_ than the woman on the Clapham Omnibus.

Although I *am*, of course - and more modest, too.


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## Marinera (May 13, 2016)

Have to agree with the above comment, because I was thinking the same, about Hitler's Wagnerian obsession, and he obviously liked art also, Arnold Böcklin's the Isle of the Dead being his favourite if I remember it right. Then there's Lavrenty Beria who loved classical music and his favourite composers were Rachmaninov, Chopin and Berlioz. The Roman emperor Nero loved a musical chord or two as well, and although it wasn't calssical music per se, it was not a dubstep either. Which leads to conclusion that classical music has its benefits and effect on some people to the extent of being spiritually uplifting, because churches and religion use it for a reason, but it is not a panacea for moral ambiguity, depravity or psychotic tendencies..

Edit: If that were the case churches would simply play music and dispence with all the extra-curricular teaching and ten commandments


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## Boldertism (May 21, 2015)

My own character has been changed by this music. The depth of emotional expression, the sublimity, the majesty. This music expresses my feelings in a way that I cannot reproduce alone. It allows my mind to think from positions that, alone, it wouldn't otherwise. There's a kind of "wisdom" in this music.

I would like to add that Vladimir Lenin was a huge fan of Beethoven, Joseph Stalin's favorite work of music was Mozart's 23rd piano concerto, and Adolf Hitler was a big fan of the German greats. There's even a video on YouTube of Beethoven's ninth Symphony being performed for Hitler's birthday, a symphony about universal brotherhood and divinity.


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## Hildadam Bingor (May 7, 2016)

Richard8655 said:


> I tend to agree with the premise, although there are exceptions. Hitler and the Nazi state extolled Wagner, Bruckner, and other classical music composers, and they had (obviously) quite a violent and aggressive ideology.


So just think how much worse they would've been if they'd had rap!


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Hildadam Bingor said:


> So just think how much worse they would've been if they'd had rap!


Brilliant! 
On the other hand, rap might have forced them to confront who they were. Their liking for classical music helped to con them into thinking that they were cultured, civilised human beings.

 But I see a large can of worms in front of me, and hasten to throw away the tin opener...


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Ingélou said:


> Brilliant!
> On the other hand, rap might have forced them to confront who they were. Their liking for classical music helped to con them into thinking that they were cultured, civilised human beings.
> 
> But I see a large can of worms in front of me, and hasten to throw away the tin opener...


I know the feeling


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

Not sure I agree that classical music has this effect on it's listeners: _"tend to be more spiritually inclined, emotionally stable, intelligent and witty, more romantic, less prone to violence and aggression, etc."_

Whereas I believe that some classical music, if studied can "elevate" the human condition which is what art used to be a large part about (no longer these days, instead the scatological and vapidness seem to be dominant themes in much of modern art), but I'm not sure it has a definitive influence of all the above virtues to the listener.

Music is often a very personal thing, and there are few people that aren't moved by SOME genre of music whether it be classical, jazz, rock, heavy metal, rap, bluegrass, etc. Which is why one of my favorite quotes about music is, _"Music is a higher revelation than all the wisdom and philosophy"_ - LVB.

Music has an ability to reach and touch something in our souls like nothing else can. Bottom line is I have met some angels who love rap and heavy metal, just as I have met some real [email protected]$tard$ who love classical.

V

PS: Let's not forget that Hitler was a big animal lover too. What one likes and dislikes is a poor indicator of what kind of person one is.


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## Marinera (May 13, 2016)

Hildadam Bingor said:


> So just think how much worse they would've been if they'd had rap!


The extra little drop for that particular abyss would've been immaterial.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

This is not something I've ever observed. I've met plenty of wonderful people who don't like classical music and plenty of jerks who do.

The Nazis problem is also fatal to this position, I think.


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## dieter (Feb 26, 2016)

Raymond Carver described how he spent a night listening to the Bartok Quartets. He decided he wasn't a better person for the experience. He came to the conclusion that art changes nothing. That's not its purpose.


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## dieter (Feb 26, 2016)

Richard8655 said:


> I tend to agree with the premise, although there are exceptions. Hitler and the Nazi state extolled Wagner, Bruckner, and other classical music composers, and they had (obviously) quite a violent and aggressive ideology.


I still contend that anybody who thinks what Hitler's musical tastes are in any way significant has a problem derived from watching too much Hollywood and its associated induction of intellectual slumber and amnesia. By Hollywood I mean, of course, that moralizing armchair view of history where the bad guys were 'them' and the good guys are' us'. Those people point the finger usually at the likely suspects, I.E. Lenin, Stalin, Hitler etc. In the meantime 'WE' are morally pure, and how do we know that? Simply because WE can judge the likes of Hitler and Stalin. It means nothing to these people that in the 19th century the bad guys in the USA were the indigenous population, in England were 'the natives' and anyone who dared impinge on England's God-given right to colonise the world etc etc.
Just for the record, Hitler liked tea, bread, cake and soup...So did Stalin apparently.
I think its best these items are proscribed along with Bruckner and Wagner.


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## dieter (Feb 26, 2016)

Hildadam Bingor said:


> So just think how much worse they would've been if they'd had rap!


Or Abba, or any pop music from the 60's...


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

dieter said:


> I still contend that anybody who thinks what Hitler's musical tastes are in any way significant has a problem derived from watching too much Hollywood and its associated induction of intellectual slumber and amnesia. By Hollywood I mean, of course, that moralizing armchair view of history where the bad guys were 'them' and the good guys are' us'. Those people point the finger usually at the likely suspects, I.E. Lenin, Stalin, Hitler etc. In the meantime 'WE' are morally pure, and how do we know that? Simply because WE can judge the likes of Hitler and Stalin. It means nothing to these people that in the 19th century the bad guys in the USA were the indigenous population, in England were 'the natives' and anyone who dared impinge on England's God-given right to colonise the world etc etc.
> Just for the record, Hitler liked tea, bread, cake and soup...So did Stalin apparently.
> I think its best these items are proscribed along with Bruckner and Wagner.


You sound awfully confused and are conflating many injustices in history for an unknown rambling point. The premise was that classical music attracts those not prone to aggression and violence. The Nazi regime and tastes in music is an a example of that not being necessarily the case. There is no Hollywood about that fact. And it is a significant fact as the culture of Nazism had the intended goal of controlling its message for affect with the population. To not understand that is to not understand the impact of culture, propaganda, and historical events.

Now if you want to defend Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, etc. by criticizing history for treating them unfairly as "bad guys", then you'll have an issue with many people. That generalization is not only false, but quite simplistic and naive. It sounds like you're in a state of intellectual slumber and ignorance on this subject.


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## Hildadam Bingor (May 7, 2016)

Richard8655 said:


> You sound awfully confused and are conflating many injustices in history for an unknown rambling point.


I don't think dieter's point was unknown or rambling.



Richard8655 said:


> Now if you want to defend Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, etc. by criticizing history for treating them unfairly as "bad guys", then you'll have an issue with many people.


dieter didn't say that. They criticized history for treating us unfairly (as in we don't deserve it) as the good guys.


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## Hildadam Bingor (May 7, 2016)

Connecting back to OT - instead of letting ourselves off easy by talking about what certified bad guys who lost liked, we could say: "Eisenhower liked Beethoven, but United Fruit Company."


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

Wouldn't it take a mentally healthy, spiritual person to answer this question?


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

I personally think classical music has been a particularly major influence on my life out of all the influences on my life. However, I think what actually happens is a reverse causation/reaction, that classical music doesn't necessarily make people sensitive or thoughtful individuals, but rather classical music attracts people who are _already _sensitive or thoughtful. Think of how people say musicians score better on the SATs than non-musicians. No, I think it's people who score well on the SATs also tend to like music-making. The correlation is more associative than cause/effect.


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## dieter (Feb 26, 2016)

Richard8655 said:


> You sound awfully confused and are conflating many injustices in history for an unknown rambling point. The premise was that classical music attracts those not prone to aggression and violence. The Nazi regime and tastes in music is an a example of that not being necessarily the case. There is no Hollywood about that fact. And it is a significant fact as the culture of Nazism had the intended goal of controlling its message for affect with the population. To not understand that is to not understand the impact of culture, propaganda, and historical events.
> 
> Now if you want to defend Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, etc. by criticizing history for treating them unfairly as "bad guys", then you'll have an issue with many people. That generalization is not only false, but quite simplistic and naive. It sounds like you're in a state of intellectual slumber and ignorance on this subject.


I don't think you'll ever get it. Let me just ask the simple question: why does the fact that Hitler and SOME of his cohorts liked Bruckner and Wagner bother you? Like I say, they liked beer and cake and bread and breakfast and lunch and 'tea'.


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## dieter (Feb 26, 2016)

Richard8655 said:


> You sound awfully confused and are conflating many injustices in history for an unknown rambling point. The premise was that classical music attracts those not prone to aggression and violence. The Nazi regime and tastes in music is an a example of that not being necessarily the case. There is no Hollywood about that fact. And it is a significant fact as the culture of Nazism had the intended goal of controlling its message for affect with the population. To not understand that is to not understand the impact of culture, propaganda, and historical events.
> 
> Now if you want to defend Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, etc. by criticizing history for treating them unfairly as "bad guys", then you'll have an issue with many people. That generalization is not only false, but quite simplistic and naive. It sounds like you're in a state of intellectual slumber and ignorance on this subject.


You're talking from a country which used a culture of propaganda and lies as the reason for its invasion of Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Panama, Philippines, Cuba, Grenada...just where does it end? So you wanna question the musical tastes of the so-called American liars and bulldusters and criminals who authorized these invasions? We won't even mention Hiroshima or Nagasaki...
I know and understand that these posts are not to be used to propagate so-called 'politics', but I DO get absolutely sick and tired and offended by the fact that this imposed exclusion zone allows random and stupid and vapid references to the musical tastes of Hitler, Stalin, Lenin or any other member of the 'enemy' species. ( I note with bitter irony the simple fact that at one time Uncle Joe was a so-called ALLY. As was Norriega, as was Saddam etc etc etc etc etc etc and I could go on.)


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

To me, spirituality means helping the most vulnerable, suffering people we know about or meet. Music can assist or detract from that. It's basically neutral. 

Nevertheless, it's basically a good thing because it brings pleasure without harming anyone.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

regenmusic said:


> Wouldn't it take a mentally healthy, spiritual person to answer this question?


Now that's a good point.:tiphat:


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## Guest (May 17, 2016)

dieter said:


> You're talking from a country which used a culture of propaganda and lies as the reason for its invasion of Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Panama, Philippines, Cuba, Grenada...just where does it end? So you wanna question the musical tastes of the so-called American liars and bulldusters and criminals who authorized these invasions? We won't even mention Hiroshima or Nagasaki...
> I know and understand that these posts are not to be used to propagate so-called 'politics', but I DO get absolutely sick and tired and offended by the fact that this imposed exclusion zone allows random and stupid and vapid references to the musical tastes of Hitler, Stalin, Lenin or any other member of the 'enemy' species. ( I note with bitter irony the simple fact that at one time Uncle Joe was a so-called ALLY. As was Norriega, as was Saddam etc etc etc etc etc etc and I could go on.)


If you are offended by a post you could "report" it. (Of course, that doesn't apply to any of my posts  )


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> I personally think classical music has been a particularly major influence on my life out of all the influences on my life. However, I think what actually happens is a reverse causation/reaction, that classical music doesn't necessarily make people sensitive or thoughtful individuals, but rather classical music attracts people who are _already _sensitive or thoughtful. Think of how people say musicians score better on the SATs than non-musicians. No, I think it's people who score well on the SATs also tend to like music-making. The correlation is more associative than cause/effect.


Then you have weirdos like me who do poorly on standardized tests, have terrible academic credentials, who don't even work yet still are drawn to things that people think are 'smart.(classical music at the forefront) It's been fooling me all these years and I've been fooling others sometimes, till they figure out I start cussing in frustration when learning how to tie a simple knot. All I have anymore is being eccentric, which apparently is trendy in some dominant circles that most people hate. Hooray for theoretically being able to fit into hipster 'liberal' culture, where all there is for me is to be a meta hipster(hipster) .

How can such a person have been made more intelligent by listening to classical music?


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Universally speaking, I think classically-based music has a calming effect, and is easier on the nerves than, say, rap or metal music. This is based on the formal aspects of the sound itself: absence of a strong, repetitive beat, lush textures, no persistent drum or cymbal crashes, no excessive deep bass which repeats incessantly, in many cases no voices. You could make a case that these characteristics attract an older, more centered listener, who is in search of calming and centering effects rather than incitements to action.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

It was effective in helping me nap as a child! But you are bound to get prickly responses from those who are highly invested in more bombastic exceptions or modernism.


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## Hildadam Bingor (May 7, 2016)

millionrainbows said:


> This is based on the formal aspects of the sound itself: absence of a strong, repetitive beat, lush textures, no persistent drum or cymbal crashes, no excessive deep bass which repeats incessantly, in many cases no voices.


You just made a case that Le Marteau sans maitre is the most calming music ever 8D!


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Classical music's strengths lie in what is _not_ there...no incessant beat, etc. This doesn't necessarily mean that all music with these absences is going to be relaxing. John Cage's Variations IV, with an amplified contact mic being scraped over the strings of a piano, is rather unsettling, similar to nails on blackboard, or like scraping the strings of a piano with a contact mic.


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## Hildadam Bingor (May 7, 2016)

millionrainbows said:


> John Cage's Variations IV, with an amplified contact mic being scraped over the strings of a piano, is rather unsettling, similar to nails on blackboard, or like scraping the strings of a piano with a contact mic.




(Um, pretend I wrote something long enough to post here.)


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

I think a part of what makes it intellectually, emotionally and spiritually instructive is how focusing on it tutors over the years the good influence of some pretty good highlights of European culture. One is exposed to different languages, as well.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Richard8655 said:


> I tend to agree with the premise, although there are exceptions. Hitler and the Nazi state extolled Wagner, Bruckner, and other classical music composers, and they had (obviously) quite a violent and aggressive ideology.


Ugh... how did we all know Hitler was going to be the buzz word again? I swear, discussions would be quite a bit more interesting if we struck Hitler from our vocabularies for a year. Maybe we'd come up with a few other telling examples...


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

OP: I would say one has to be of a certain sensitive and emotional type to love classical music. If you aren't receptive to it, you will never "get it". I was watching a flick an hour ago starring Maggie Smith as an elderly homeless woman who used to be a fine Chopin pianist, with a budding concert career. The slow movement of Chopins's Piano Concerto No. 1 adorned the movie throughout. Everytime I heard it, tears would well up. However, there was no effect on my companion and she couldn't understand the music's effect on me.
She's just not emotionally sensitive to classical music.
However, she's a great cook, so it's not like it's a total loss!


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Varick: PS: Let's not forget that Hitler was a big animal lover too. What one likes and dislikes is a poor indicator of what kind of person one is.[/QUOTE]

I will jump into the fire for this.... no person or living being is TOTALLY depraved/"evil"/whatever word you choose to substitute.... something of "goodness" always remains. IMO


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

JosefinaHW said:


> Varick: PS: Let's not forget that Hitler was a big animal lover too. What one likes and dislikes is a poor indicator of what kind of person one is.


I will jump into the fire for this.... no person or living being is TOTALLY depraved/"evil"/whatever word you choose to substitute.... something of "goodness" always remains. IMO[/QUOTE]

No, humans are totally depraved. Monuments to our depravity are all around us.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Morimur said:


> I will jump into the fire for this.... no person or living being is TOTALLY depraved/"evil"/whatever word you choose to substitute.... something of "goodness" always remains. IMO


No, humans are totally depraved. Monuments to our depravity are all around us.[/QUOTE]

:Morimur: I agree with Luke that the constant use of Hitler as an example is tiresome and not typical, but...

And I hear you saying "all humans are totally depraved". Well let's use you as a poster here on TC as an example:

If I remember correctly your previous avatar was Gary Oldman as Prince Vlad/Count Dracula. Even if I'm wrong and that's not who the image was, your choice reminded me of something. That movie enriched my life in many ways: beautiful music (enriched my life and others here on TC who like Kilar's music); the movie had a good story (literature has enriched my life and millions of others and has inspired many of us to good and great actions); the image reminded of physical beauty (Gary Oldman, Winona Ryder, Keanu Reeves, lush costumes, gorgeous grey hair, etc.); appeal of extreme loyalty and fidelity (a standing in love that last for centuries as the extreme example to make us think of a limited case); beauty of biology and sexuality (luxuriant eroticism of the film). I would call all these qualities and things as "good"--so even if you did not intend or consciously wish to contribute these things to me (and others on TC) you did. I don't think a TOTALLY depraved person could convey anything of good or value.


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

Lukecash12 said:


> Ugh... how did we all know Hitler was going to be the buzz word again? I swear, discussions would be quite a bit more interesting if we struck Hitler from our vocabularies for a year. Maybe we'd come up with a few other telling examples...


Wow, what a debate this thread has started. Hitler and Nazism was just an example. Maybe insignificant, maybe not. Just ignore for better/other examples.


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## Hildadam Bingor (May 7, 2016)

Morimur said:


> No, humans are totally depraved. Monuments to our depravity are all around us.


...I don't think Shostakovich's music is _that_ bad.


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

JosefinaHW said:


> I will jump into the fire for this.... no person or living being is TOTALLY depraved/"evil"/whatever word you choose to substitute.... something of "goodness" always remains. IMO


I couldn't agree more. Even ISIS does "some" good. They have provided food and medicine to certain villages they have come across. I have always believed in a "moral bank account" if you will. The point in life is to make more deposits than withdrawals. Of course ISIS is so beyond bankruptcy, there is no word for it.

V


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Varick said:


> I couldn't agree more. Even ISIS does "some" good.


It always surprises me how many people in my country believe that those who oppose or have opposed our interests, or have led wars against us, get up every morning wondering what evil they can do that day.


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## Guest (May 18, 2016)

Jordan Workman said:


> people who listen to Classical music regularly tend to be more spiritually inclined, emotionally stable, intelligent and witty, more romantic...


Well, I didn't like to say...


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## Guest (May 18, 2016)

KenOC said:


> It always surprises me how many people in my country believe that those who oppose or have opposed our interests, or have led wars against us, get up every morning wondering what evil they can do that day.


How to annoy yanks is top of my daily to-do list!


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## Guest (May 18, 2016)

Morimur said:


> I will jump into the fire for this.... no person or living being is TOTALLY depraved/"evil"/whatever word you choose to substitute.... something of "goodness" always remains. IMO


No, humans are totally depraved. Monuments to our depravity are all around us.[/QUOTE]

And to our humanity. Not all humans are depraved, but history and headlines tend to ignore the million daily acts of kindness.


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## dieter (Feb 26, 2016)

Lukecash12 said:


> Ugh... how did we all know Hitler was going to be the buzz word again? I swear, discussions would be quite a bit more interesting if we struck Hitler from our vocabularies for a year. Maybe we'd come up with a few other telling examples...


As I keep asking: what the f did Adolph Hitler have to do with music?


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## dieter (Feb 26, 2016)

hpowders said:


> OP: I would say one has to be of a certain sensitive and emotional type to love classical music. If you aren't receptive to it, you will never "get it". I was watching a flick an hour ago starring Maggie Smith as an elderly homeless woman who used to be a fine Chopin pianist, with a budding concert career. The slow movement of Chopins's Piano Concerto No. 1 adorned the movie throughout. Everytime I heard it, tears would well up. However, there was no effect on my companion and she couldn't understand the music's effect on me.
> She's just not emotionally sensitive to classical music.
> However, she's a great cook, so it's not like it's a total loss!


I'm the cook in the house. She's Polish, turns the volume down even when the amplifier isn't on. Chopin who? But I love her...


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## dieter (Feb 26, 2016)

KenOC said:


> It always surprises me how many people in my country believe that those who oppose or have opposed our interests, or have led wars against us, get up every morning wondering what evil they can do that day.


That's a lovely thought but I wonder if you've considered that they might oppose you or your interests for very, very good reasons. There are way too may examples to elucidate. Lets' start with the Arabs who TE Lawrence convinced to fight for the Brits( I.E.Rightousness, excuse me while I expectorate)only to have Balfour and Sykes Picquot stick their whole existence up their Khyber passes.


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## dieter (Feb 26, 2016)

MacLeod said:


> How to annoy yanks is top of my daily to-do list!


I love you!!!!Metaphorically, I'm spoken for...


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## dieter (Feb 26, 2016)

Varick said:


> I couldn't agree more. Even ISIS does "some" good. They have provided food and medicine to certain villages they have come across. I have always believed in a "moral bank account" if you will. The point in life is to make more deposits than withdrawals. Of course ISIS is so beyond bankruptcy, there is no word for it.
> 
> V


I can see where you're coming from. Ask yourself, who funds ISIS, who set them up, ditto the Taliban, ditto Hamas etc etc


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

dieter said:


> I can see where you're coming from. Ask yourself, who funds ISIS, who set them up, ditto the Taliban, ditto Hamas etc etc


It makes little difference who funds these monsters. What matters most is what these monsters do. They commit unspeakable acts of evil. And if at one point because western powers sided with some of these monsters and therefore that now makes certain western powers unforgivably corrupt, I say that life is often messy and complex. Often in life it is impossible to rid one's hands of all dirt. Remember in WWII, the allied forces had to support one monster (Stalin) in order to defeat another monster (whom I won't mention in respect of Lukecash's sensibilities ). Life isn't always a neat little world where everyone can live a spotless existence.

V


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## Hildadam Bingor (May 7, 2016)

Varick said:


> It makes little difference who funds these monsters. What matters most is what these monsters do.


Well, if somebody paid them, then that somebody did it too.


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

Hildadam Bingor said:


> Well, if somebody paid them, then that somebody did it too.


Well it makes sense that the majority of their money comes from other evil regimes like Iran, Syria, and the likes.

V


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## Guest (May 18, 2016)

Our own country's propaganda, when successful, is not perceived as propaganda, but as a statement of reality.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

Taking music seriously is probably a delusion in and of itself.


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

I like to see sometimes the value of classical music by seeing what things would be like if the world was devoid of it. What if we only had the popular music of each generation barely passed down to us today? What if today there was only that and the current top 40 hits? We would be left with sea shanties, barroom songs, and those 1940s hits. Anyone ever check out the sheet music from the 1920s?


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## dieter (Feb 26, 2016)

Varick said:


> Well it makes sense that the majority of their money comes from other evil regimes like Iran, Syria, and the likes.
> 
> V


Most people agree their money comes from Saudi Arabia, supposedly our allies.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

This thread is about classical music's effect on us spiritually, emotionally, and mentally. It is not about politics. Refrain from political posts. If you are not sure if a post is too political, *DON'T POST IT*.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

I certainly find quality classical music truly uplifting mentally and emotionally. That is to say when I listen to a Bach, Handel, Haydn, Mozart or Beethoven for example, I find it very re-assuring that fine art music exists and that I can feel inspired to feel positive about art and art aesthetics. Good art is about building appreciative art sensibilities, not that of degradation.


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## Guest (May 19, 2016)

ArtMusic said:


> I certainly find quality classical music truly uplifting mentally and emotionally.


I certainly find quality pop/rock music truly uplifting mentally and emotionally. In fact I'm pleased to declare that pop/rock has had a positive effect on me for much longer than classical, causing me to do good deeds, be nice and lovely to all, especially fluffy kittens and small children, and refrain from declaring war on Iraq and other Bad Things.


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## Guest (May 19, 2016)

MacLeod said:


> I certainly find quality pop/rock music truly uplifting mentally and emotionally. In fact I'm pleased to declare that pop/rock has had a positive effect on me for much longer than classical, causing me to do good deeds, be nice and lovely to all, especially fluffy kittens and small children, and refrain from declaring war on Iraq and other Bad Things.


You're doing that yank thing aren't you.


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## Guest (May 19, 2016)

dogen said:


> You're doing that yank thing aren't you.


Well I would have referred to declaring war on Poland and/or Russia, but I don't want to run the risk that someone might be prompted to name He Who Should Not Be Named On The Interweb. I'd rather be accused of Yankophobia!


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## Guest (May 19, 2016)

Who do you mean? Do you mean Hitler?


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## dieter (Feb 26, 2016)

MacLeod said:


> I certainly find quality pop/rock music truly uplifting mentally and emotionally. In fact I'm pleased to declare that pop/rock has had a positive effect on me for much longer than classical, causing me to do good deeds, be nice and lovely to all, especially fluffy kittens and small children, and refrain from declaring war on Iraq and other Bad Things.


Good to hear. It's about time you changed your wicked ways.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Music makes me feel better in both simple and more mysterious ways, but it doesn't make me a better person.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

dieter said:


> You're talking from a country which used a culture of propaganda and lies as the reason for its invasion of Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Panama, Philippines, Cuba, Grenada...just where does it end? So you wanna question the musical tastes of the so-called American liars and bulldusters and criminals who authorized these invasions? We won't even mention Hiroshima or Nagasaki...
> I know and understand that these posts are not to be used to propagate so-called 'politics', but I DO get absolutely sick and tired and offended by the fact that this imposed exclusion zone allows random and stupid and vapid references to the musical tastes of Hitler, Stalin, Lenin or any other member of the 'enemy' species. ( *I note with bitter irony the simple fact that at one time Uncle Joe was a so-called ALLY. As was Norriega, as was Saddam etc etc etc etc etc etc and I could go on.*)


Do not forget about the militant Islamist mujahideen in Afghanistan - Bin Laden's former buddies, who were America's allies against the Soviets. And most recently, the "opposition" in Syria that is responsible for maintaining a prolonged state of chaos in that country. What consequences that chaos in turn has had for European countries: France, Belgium, Germany - that I do not need to remind you.

And now to the topic. Actually I do believe I have become a better person in many ways since I started to listen to classical music. More romantic - absolutely. More spiritually inclined - possibly. Whether less prone to aggression - it depends. My capacity for enjoying life has most definitely increased.


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## Xenakiboy (May 8, 2016)

It makes me happy and obsessed, that's how classical music positively effects. Then I get to composing piece after piece!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

DeepR said:


> Music makes me feel better in both simple and more mysterious ways, but it doesn't make me a better person.


The latter is the problem, lot's of people _think _they are a better person


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## dieter (Feb 26, 2016)

Pugg said:


> The latter is the problem, lot's of people _think _they are a better person


I discovered Beethoven when I was 14. I know for sure it hasn't changed my life at all. Though I have found out that the composers who I think are the greatest - Bach, Beethoven, Bach, Bruckner, Handel, Haydn, Mozart, Schubert, Wagner and Mahler had at their core a sense of love and compassion for a common humanity.


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## Guest (May 20, 2016)

dogen said:


> Who do you mean? Do you mean Hitler?


Ssshhhh!

View attachment 84700


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Taking music seriously is probably a delusion in and of itself.


Banned member Polednice once made a serious thread about music being a delusion. It wasn't very popular and hurt his immense popularity for a bit.


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## Truckload (Feb 15, 2012)

There has been significant research on this topic. Results of the research have been so positive, that additional research is ongoing. Very large longitudinal studies on the effects of classical music on adults are in progress that will not be complete for many years, but there is enough factual data to validate the positive benefits of traditional (CPE era) classical music to make it a proven fact.

I started a thread on this subject back in February. Here is a link to that thread.

http://www.talkclassical.com/42056-does-humanity-benefit-classical.html?highlight=benefits+of+classical+music

The research is really quite remarkable. And there is no doubt that studying an instrument improves academic performance and helps children improve IQ. It is not that higher IQ children decide to learn an instrument. Studies have shown that learning an instrument helps to build IQ.


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## Guest (May 21, 2016)

clavichorder said:


> Banned member Polednice once made a serious thread about music being a delusion. It wasn't very popular and hurt his immense popularity for a bit.


What a shame I missed this iconoclast.


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## Guest (May 21, 2016)

Whilst there's a lot of research and plenty of evidence of specific effects, it's wise to avoid making too broad a generalisation. For example:



> "It turns out that playing a musical instrument is important," Kraus said, differentiating her group's findings from the now- debunked myth that just listening to certain types of music improves intelligence, the so-called "Mozart effect." "We don't see these kinds of biological changes in people who are just listening to music, who are not playing an instrument," said Kraus. "I like to give the analogy that you're not going to become physically fit just by watching sports." It's important to engage with the sound in order to reap the benefits and see changes in the central nervous system."


http://time.com/3634995/study-kids-engaged-music-class-for-benefits-northwestern/


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## kanishknishar (Aug 10, 2015)

Jordan Workman said:


> In what ways does Classical music positively effect people spiritual, mentally, emotionally, etc? It seems to me that people who listen to Classical music regularly tend to be more spiritually inclined, emotionally stable, intelligent and witty, more romantic, less prone to violence and aggression, etc. The positive nature and beauty of this music must have a profound effect on the soul of a person.


Just to be clear: Not all music is _beautiful _or _positive_. You should hear Rihm, Haas or Penderecki. That's dark, daunting (not 'ly beautiful') music.

I love getting into fistifghts and scream in the bathroom. Punch pillows to release my rage. Sometimes all three. 
*I have no soul. *

*laughs*

I kid.
(*hides dagger*)

For me, classical music taught me the value of perseverance. I don't like music - a lot of it - in the first attempt. Sometimes it can be two. And sometimes half a dozen times. But you can always - almost - get it. Value of patience is inherent within this - Bruckner and Mahler for example.


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## Truckload (Feb 15, 2012)

MacLeod said:


> Whilst there's a lot of research and plenty of evidence of specific effects, it's wise to avoid making too broad a generalisation. For example:
> 
> http://time.com/3634995/study-kids-engaged-music-class-for-benefits-northwestern/


Yes, the "Mozart Effect" has been fully disproved. However, as you state, it is wise not to make too broad a generalization from that one example. The Mozart Effect purported to indicate that children taking a test would achieve better results if the music of Mozart was being played while they took the test. This has been disproven.

This does not prove that "long term" listening to classical music has no positive effect. Kraus was careful to qualify her remarks by stating that it is "important to engage with the sound in order to reap the benefits". So can people benefit from "long term" listening that includes engaging with the sound?

Obviously it will take long term studies to give reliable evidence. Such studies are in progress. I can't prove it, and I might be dead when the studies are complete, but I think the answer will be that listening to classical music long term will have a positive effect on mental acuity. And I not only think it, I hope it will be true. I love classical music, so I welcome any reasons to encourage more people to listen to classical music.

What I don't understand is why you seem so opposed to the idea that classical music is a good thing. You seem relentlessly determined to find any reason to dismiss the positive benefits of traditional classical music. I know you participated in the thread I linked above. Perhaps you did not read all of the posts?


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## Guest (May 21, 2016)

Truckload said:


> What I don't understand is why you seem so opposed to the idea that classical music is a good thing. You seem relentlessly determined to find any reason to dismiss the positive benefits of traditional classical music. I know you participated in the thread I linked above. Perhaps you did not read all of the posts?


Your perception about how I seem is incorrect. I am not "relentlessly opposed", but I am sceptical of the kind of comprenhensive assertions made by the OP:



Jordan Workman said:


> people who listen to Classical music regularly tend to be more spiritually inclined, emotionally stable, intelligent and witty, more romantic, less prone to violence and aggression, etc. The positive nature and beauty of this music must have a profound effect on the soul of a person.


I'm not the only one here who is sceptical.



Ingélou said:


> I don't really agree with this, and I don't see how it could be proved. Listening to music of any sort would suggest that a person is patient & has intellectual interests - and listening to classical music probably goes with having a good education, as it's a minority interest that people don't usually pick up from their environment.
> 
> Certainly the people I know and knew who like classical music are nice, kind spiritual people - but so are many of the people I know and knew who don't or didn't.
> 
> Also I hesitate because I wouldn't like people to think that because I like classical music I consider myself _more spiritually inclined, emotionally stable, intelligent and witty, more romantic, less prone to violence and aggression_ than the woman on the Clapham Omnibus.


Aside from my rejection of the OP, I also reject two other tendencies in these discussions. First, the misuse of research findings, such as the claim that one test showed "long-term" benefits when all that means is, according to the article I linked to, "longer than a day"; and that the improvements were in "IQ / general intelligence" (whatever that is) when in fact they were in specific skills,

Second, is the tendency for some (not necessarily you) to assert that they, as classical listeners, are, because of the claimed improving effect, superior to those who listen to lesser music, or to no music at all. I find such smug claims objectionable. Some go further and wish to suggest that those who listen to rock are not only not improved, but degraded by their habit.

I love music - pop, rock, classical - and as I have stated more than once in this Forum, I _feel _better for listening to it. I'm pleased that other people do too. But I'm not going to claim that it makes me a better person, and I will continue to view with scepticism, the crude idea that 'music makes us good".


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## Truckload (Feb 15, 2012)

MacLeod said:


> Your perception about how I seem is incorrect. I am not "relentlessly opposed", but I am sceptical of the kind of comprenhensive assertions made by the OP:


Thanks for responding. I can agree that the assertion "music makes us good" is obviously in need of more specificity. Good in what way? And whose definition of good should we use? An avowed communist, an atheist, a Muslim, and a capitalist might all have very different definitions of what it means to be "good".

There were lots of research papers referenced by others as well as myself in the thread I linked to above. What has been proven is that long term musical instruction of notated music, instrument or voice, does increase the IQ, as measured in standardized tests, of children. There is a lot of additional research in lots of areas, but no sense in pointing out again everything that was in that thread. Eventually we will know with as much certainty as it is possible for a human to know anything, the exact effects of music in general and traditional classical music in particular.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

MacLeod said:


> I love music - pop, rock, classical - and as I have stated more than once in this Forum, I _feel _better for listening to it. I'm pleased that other people do too. But I'm not going to claim that it makes me a better person, and I will continue to view with scepticism, the crude idea that 'music makes us good".


Valid points, MacLeod, but let's not conflate this trend that you're criticizing with a denial that CPE music has any real constructive qualities associated with it. I feel better for listening to music as well, but there is also research in Truckload's referenced thread, quite a few of which articles I referenced myself, which pass the reasonable muster of your first bemoaned trend here in demonstrating salutatory effects.


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## dieter (Feb 26, 2016)

dogen said:


> What a shame I missed this iconoclast.


Never met him: I like iconoclasts as a species.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

dieter said:


> Never met him: I like iconoclasts as a species.


Lol, for whatever reason he's still on my friends list, even though it was seemingly forever ago that Polednice was banned. Funny, dogen has become a fixture here, to the point that it's odd to me when I realize dogen wasn't around for a lot of that stuff. This is a pretty old site.


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## Guest (May 22, 2016)

Lukecash12 said:


> Valid points, MacLeod, but let's not conflate this trend that you're criticizing with a denial that CPE music has any real constructive qualities associated with it. I feel better for listening to music as well, but there is also research in Truckload's referenced thread, quite a few of which articles I referenced myself, which pass the reasonable muster of your first bemaoned trend here in demonstrating salutatory effects.


No conflating on my part. I hadn't been back to look at that thread (but I have now) - I've been concentrating on this one and this OP, where there does seem to be some conflating going on!


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## Guest (May 22, 2016)

Truckload said:


> I know you participated in the thread I linked above. Perhaps you did not read all of the posts?


I probably read most of the posts at the time - I don't remember. I didn't read all of the links evidencing the improving effect of music, since I wasn't contesting the idea that music can be beneficial. What I was contesting was the idea that it can be beneficial "to humanity".

http://www.talkclassical.com/42056-does-humanity-benefit-classical-post1018221.html#post1018221

What I note from a reread was the debate about "facts" and "the scientific method" and "reason and logic". It seems clearer to me that what Lukecash12 was pointing out was the need for reason and logic in the use of facts; that where Truckload wanted to separate the value of data from reason and logic, Luke showed that data cannot stand alone to prove something unless reason is deployed with it.

I also note that I was not the only one who offered some scepticism about the OP. And that more than once, I confirmed my belief in the positive effects of music.


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## Guest (May 22, 2016)

Lukecash12 said:


> Lol, for whatever reason he's still on my friends list, even though it was seemingly forever ago that Polednice was banned. Funny, dogen has become a fixture here, to the point that it's odd to me when I realize dogen wasn't around for a lot of that stuff. This is a pretty old site.


COAG is still on my Friend list. I think of it as a little shrine. Occasionally I leave a little bowl of fruit or flowers.


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## Dr Johnson (Jun 26, 2015)

dogen said:


> COAG is still on my Friend list. I think of it as a little shrine. *Occasionally I leave a little bowl of fruit or flowers.*


In case you wondered, it's me who keeps nicking those.

Sorry.


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## Guest (May 22, 2016)

Dr Johnson said:


> In case you wondered, it's me who keeps nicking those.
> 
> Sorry.


I'm sorry too for dusting it with Laxido.


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## dieter (Feb 26, 2016)

MacLeod said:


> No conflating on my part. I hadn't been back to look at that thread (but I have now) - I've been concentrating on this one and this OP, where there does seem to be some conflating going on!


Or do you mean flatulation?


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