# Mi against Fa



## Jord

I've come across 'Mi against Fa' in The Study of Counterpoint by Fux a few times and i'm not quite sure what it means but apparently it's not good, 3rd against the 4th? what's wrong with that?


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## StevenOBrien

What's wr... WHAT'S WRONG WITH IT?! It's a minor second! Minor seconds are the devil!


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## Jord

I'm confused :lol:

if you have the book it's on page 46 fig.37, if not

Second Species of Counterpoint

'Joseph - I remember you recently said that in the next to the last measure there should first be a fifth, if the counterpoint occurs in the lower voice in the species, But obviously in this mode the fifth, being dissonant, may not be used on account of mi against fa. Therefore i wrote a sixth rather than a fifth.'


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## StevenOBrien

I don't understand why that's being referred to as "Mi against Fa", that's quite confusing.

In Locrian mode (The mode Fux is referring to), the relationship between the first and the fifth notes is unique because it creates a diminished fifth, otherwise known as a tritone. Unlike a perfect fifth, which is extremely consonant, a tritone is considered to be extremely dissonant.


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## PetrB

You are going to have to get much more directly familiar with the repertoire from which all these model rules were deduced / extracted: it is only within the context of that style that all the 'no-nos', once your ear is accustomed to that style, do actually stick out as inappropriate, not sounding good, etc. -- thereby answering your questions. You are working through the book, theory of one period, without having 'lived' in the sound spectrum of the period. They go hand in hand for real understanding. The theory may be a mental process, and a bunch of 'rules' but if not attached to the sound, what is the worth? 

Each of your questions, installed in stages and increments, are a bit cart before the horse - _start with the rep, then look at the text._

I'd prefer these Q's to be in a theory section - far more appropriate. I come to the "Today's Composers" category to check the actual works of those who compose, not to be confronted with student questions on theory exercises.


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## Jord

PetrB said:


> I'd prefer these Q's to be in a theory section - far more appropriate. I come to the "Today's Composers" category to check the actual works of those who compose, not to be confronted with student questions on theory exercises.


I apologise i didn't realise there was a theory section, i still can't find it :S or was you saying there should be one? that's why i've been posting all my questions in here  and i haven't been listening to the examples in the book just been looking and abiding by the rules, i'll start doing that


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## Jord

StevenOBrien said:


> I don't understand why that's being referred to as "Mi against Fa", that's quite confusing.
> 
> In Locrian mode (The mode Fux is referring to), the relationship between the first and the fifth notes is unique because it creates a diminished fifth, otherwise known as a tritone. Unlike a perfect fifth, which is extremely consonant, a tritone is considered to be extremely dissonant.


Unfortunately in Fux's book 2nd 4th and 7ths aren't allowed unless certain rules, and i'll keep trying to figure it out 
Thanks for the help though


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## PetrB

Jord said:


> I apologise i didn't realise there was a theory section, i still can't find it :S or was you saying there should be one? that's why i've been posting all my questions in here  and i haven't been listening to the examples in the book just been looking and abiding by the rules, i'll start doing that


There may not be - and I, you, and many others would find that useful, a dedicated discussion help board specifically for.
If it does not exist, I will happily join you (and any others) in requesting the powers that be of TC to start one


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## Jord

PetrB said:


> There may not be - and I, you, and many others would find that useful, a dedicated discussion help board specifically for.
> If it does not exist, I will happily join you (and any others) in requesting the powers that be of TC to start one


How do we start then :lol:


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## PetrB

Jord said:


> I apologise i didn't realise there was a theory section, i still can't find it :S or was you saying there should be one? that's why i've been posting all my questions in here  and i haven't been listening to the examples in the book just been looking and abiding by the rules, i'll start doing that


Do not apologize. If there is no theory category. it is I who owe you an apology.

Please do not for one moment stop posting your questions in the composer category until we find out if there is a more specific category, or that we can, it is to be hoped, get other members to lobby for one to be created.


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## paulc

'Mi against fa' refers to the tritone. On page 46, B in the lower voice against F in the upper voice on the downbeat - no!

Fux also advises against outlining the tritone melodically, unless it can be subtly concealed. See the footnote (page 35). As far as I can tell, it's easier to write material that can be used in a variety of situations when 'mi against fa' is avoided. Although, as in other cases there is at least one example in the book where a larger number of voices permits relaxing of this rule.


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## dudalarson

look at the footnotes in pages 31 and 35, there is some explanation, however not a deep or convincing one. As I understand, Mi and Fa where used as names for degrees in hexachords, not for the fixed notes as we use today. And in most relationships between different hexachords, Mi against Fa forms a tritone or a minor second.


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## StevenOBrien

I agree with the need for a separate category. Instead of naming it a "theory" category though, it should be a category for any discussions involving the process of composition, not necessarily just theory questions/discussions.


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## Jord

Thank you, this has cleared it up a little, but i'm still confused, there's three types of Hexachords then, hard (durum) soft (molle) and natural (naturale)
Each is made up of six notes, ut, re, mi, fa, sol, la. (which i understand i was thinking of diatonic before)
in the book durum goes from G to E, molle goes F to D with a Bb and naturale goes from C to A.

So what is the point of a Hexachord?
What are they?
I can see how Mi to Fa again in a Hexachord can create a minor second but i still don't see the tritone?
It appears that Hexachords start on the tonic note and ascend in that scale six notes up?


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## wogandmush

The example you are looking at has a Fa in the natural hexachord (i.e. an 'F' in the 'C' hexachord) moving horizontally to a Mi in the hard hexachord (i.e. a 'B' in the 'G' hexachord). Basically 'F' to 'B' is a no-no.

I'm sure someone else can give you a better description of hexachords than me. This wikipedia page should give you an idea though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guidonian_hand#Hexachord_in_Middle_Ages

If you have an iphone/touch/pad there is a great app book by the name of 'Puncta' which teaches Fuxian counterpoint from 2-voice exercises to 3-voice fugue with stretto. It's extremely thorough and well written, and is excellent even as just a reference to clear up some of the ambiguity of Fux's language. Costs about a dollar but highly recommended!


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## drpraetorus

Solfegio sucks.


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## Jord

wogandmush said:


> The example you are looking at has a Fa in the natural hexachord (i.e. an 'F' in the 'C' hexachord) moving horizontally to a Mi in the hard hexachord (i.e. a 'B' in the 'G' hexachord). Basically 'F' to 'B' is a no-no.
> 
> I'm sure someone else can give you a better description of hexachords than me. This wikipedia page should give you an idea though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guidonian_hand#Hexachord_in_Middle_Ages
> 
> If you have an iphone/touch/pad there is a great app book by the name of 'Puncta' which teaches Fuxian counterpoint from 2-voice exercises to 3-voice fugue with stretto. It's extremely thorough and well written, and is excellent even as just a reference to clear up some of the ambiguity of Fux's language. Costs about a dollar but highly recommended!


It's starting to make sense now, is there only three hexachords then? C F and G? and i'm definately getting that app! Never even thought they'd be an app about counterpoint, is there any more interesting music apps that you know off?


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