# Starben or Stürben?



## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

OK, random question.
I've listened to samples of the Act II duet of _Tristan und Isolde _from many recordings. I've noticed that whatever tenor is playing Tristan either says, "So starben wir" or "So stürben wir", whereas the singer playing Isolde always seems to say "So stürben wir". Why is this line not consistently sung among different Tristans? Which one is correct - starben or stürben?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

As far as I know, no one has the answer to this puzzle. "Sterben" is the German verb meaning "to die." Starben" is past tense, "stürben" is conditional, and the discrepancy is found in the published score. The debate is over whether it's a mistake or whether Tristan's use of the past tense indicates that he already sees himself as having passed on to the next world, while Isolde is more of a realist.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> As far as I know, no one has the answer to this puzzle. "Sterben" is the German verb meaning "to die." Starben" is past tense, "stürben" is conditional, and the discrepancy is found in the published score. The debate is over whether it's a mistake or whether Tristan's use of the past tense indicates that he already sees himself as having passed on to the next world, while Isolde is more of a realist.


The score I found on IMSLP says "starben". Do you mean different editions of the score use different words?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I don't know what various editions say. I only know that Tristan usually says "starben" and Isolde usually says "stürben," and as far as I know it's always been this way.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Well, I don't know. I would think it should be "starben" if that's what the score says, but in all of these recordings, the singer for Tristan says "stürben" or maybe even "sterben", but definitely not "starben":

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The one that surprised me the most was the Solti recording. You'd think if it is supposed to be "starben" that Solti would have corrected it considering how much of a perfectionist he was. Of course, Brangäne doesn't scream at the end of the duet like she's supposed to in the Solti recording. I thought I read that Solti was disappointed in his _Tristan und Isolde _recording. So maybe he was sloppy or something.

Strangely, the libretto that came with my Karajan CD says "stürben" for Tristan, but Vickers actually does say "starben". So, I don't know. I'm very confused.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Could it not be that those Tristan's who sing 'starben' as 'stürben' are just incredibly posh? (This joke possibly only works if you are British!)

Adriesba, it seems that "starben" is in the published score, but some think that both should sing "stürben" and so some tenors and CD libretti correct what they perceive as a mistake. 

Was Wagner's original manuscript lost in WWII (and therefore we can't check what Wagner actually wrote)?

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

My reading over the years tells me that the difference between Tristan's and Isolde's choices of verb tense has long been a puzzle, suggesting that it dates back to the original published score. We need to know what's in the manuscript. You can apparently get a deluxe facsimile of it for less than a thousand dollars, if it's still available.

https://www.omifacsimiles.com/brochures/wagner_tristan.html


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> My reading over the years tells me that the difference between Tristan's and Isolde's choices of verb tense has long been a puzzle, suggesting that it dates back to the original published score. We need to know what's in the manuscript. You can apparently get a deluxe facsimile of it for less than a thousand dollars, if it's still available.
> 
> https://www.omifacsimiles.com/brochures/wagner_tristan.html


You can buy it here: https://www.amazon.com/Tristan-Isolde-Facsimile-Autograph-Musicologica/dp/3761822707

That's a lot just to answer my question though.  :lol:


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Sometimes Solti's opera recordings have information on how the recording was made. Perhaps if I bought it I could read it and understand why their Tristan doesn't say "starben" or why Brangäne doesn't scream at the end of the duet. Of course, if I buy another _Tristan und Isolde _recording, I'd rather buy the classic Böhm recording.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

adriesba said:


> Sometimes Solti's opera recordings have information on how the recording was made. Perhaps if I bought it I could read it and understand why their Tristan doesn't say "starben" or why Brangäne doesn't scream at the end of the duet. Of course, if I buy another _Tristan und Isolde _recording, I'd rather buy the classic Böhm recording.


Wise choice. .............


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

adriesba said:


> Sometimes Solti's opera recordings have information on how the recording was made. Perhaps if I bought it I could read it and understand why their Tristan doesn't say "starben" or why Brangäne doesn't scream at the end of the duet. Of course, if I buy another _Tristan und Isolde _recording, I'd rather buy the classic Böhm recording.


Böhm's is wonderful!


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

The Conte said:


> Adriesba, it seems that "starben" is in the published score, but some think that both should sing "stürben" and so some tenors and CD libretti correct what they perceive as a mistake.
> 
> N.


Tristen sings starben too many times for it to have been a careless error. Can't understand singers and conductors who think that they know better than the composer!!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> Tristen sings starben too many times for it to have been a careless error.


Where else does he use the past tense of "sterben"? I can't find any examples.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

I’m using the Eulenburg miniature score and I can’t find Tristan using anything other than starben, sturb’ and sturbe. Also I thought I’d edited my previous post to say that curiously I can’t find any use of sturben in modern German. It appears that modern usage is sterben.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Barbebleu said:


> I'm using the Eulenburg miniature score and I can't find Tristan using anything other than starben, sturb' and sturbe. Also I thought I'd edited my previous post to say that curiously I can't find any use of sturben in modern German. It appears that modern usage is sterben.


Wait, there are _scores_ where he says something other than "starben"?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

This is getting a little crazy. Tristan sings "So starben wir um ungetrennt," it's in the published score, and that's that. Some people find this baffling since the lovers haven't died, and think it logical to change this to "So stürben wir" to match what Isolde sings. The mystery will probably never be solved. I for one plan not to lose sleep over it.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

adriesba said:


> Wait, there are _scores_ where he says something other than "starben"?


I didn't make myself clear. There are other phrases throughout the whole scene where Tristan uses either the word sturb' (note the apostrophe noting a dropped vowel) or sturbe. He also says starben in the critical exchange with Isolde and her responses use the word sturben. Perhaps Victorian German had ways of expressing the same thought with slightly different emphases. My point was that modern German usage would suggest that starben or sturben are out of fashion much as we no longer use thou and thee in conversation.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> This is getting a little crazy. Tristan sings "So starben wir um ungetrennt," it's in the published score, and that's that. Some people find this baffling since the lovers haven't died, and think it logical to change this to "So stürben wir" to match what Isolde sings. The mystery will probably never be solved. I for one plan not to lose sleep over it.


I'm not sleeping well anyway so I'm game to continue playing this little game of nineteenth century German semantics.:lol:

Wait til I get started on the curious relationship between Mahler's First symphony, Rossini's William Tell and the piping tune, The Barren Rocks of Aden!

That will, of course, be on another thread.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Barbebleu said:


> I didn't make myself clear. There are other phrases throughout the whole scene where Tristan uses either the word sturb' (note the apostrophe noting a dropped vowel) or sturbe. He also says starben in the critical exchange with Isolde and her responses use the word sturben. Perhaps Victorian German had ways of expressing the same thought with slightly different emphases. My point was that modern German usage would suggest that starben or sturben are out of fashion much as we no longer use thou and thee in conversation.


OK. I see what you mean now. That's the clarification I needed, lol. :lol: 
I was about to get confused thinking there were even more substitutions for the word.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Too bad Wagner sterbed, or sturbed, or starbed, some time ago and we can't ask him about it.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> Too bad Wagner sterbed, or sturbed, or starbed, some time ago and we can't ask him about it.


Oh my, if Wagner were alive today, I'd have too many questions to ask him if I could! :lol:


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Too bad Wagner sterbed, or sturbed, or starbed, some time ago and we can't ask him about it.


Tut, tut W. You missed the umlaut on stürbed. You were obviously distürbed when writing.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> Tut, tut W. You missed the umlaut on stürbed. You were obviously distürbed when writing.


My computer seems not have an umlaut, or any other diacritical mark. If I want one I have to copy and paste from someone else's post. I guess I could do the "stuerben" thing.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

I am making a change to my post #18. My thread will be on Mahler’s 1st, Rossini and the piping tune, Green Hills of Tyrol. Not Barren Rocks of Aden. 

Clearly the lockdown is playing merry hell with my memory.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> My computer seems not have an umlaut, or any other diacritical mark. If I want one I have to copy and paste from someone else's post. I guess I could do the "stuerben" thing.


Sorry W. I wasn't having a go at you. It's just that you are a very precise writer so it was more of a gentle tease. You've been having too much back and forth with your nemesis, MR!:lol:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> You've been having too much back and forth with your nemesis, MR!:lol:


You can say that again.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

In German, "So sturben wir " means " if we were to die ". Yes, "sterben " means to die .


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