# Tristan und Isolde Addiction



## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

I have a problem. Admittance is the first step. For over a year now, I have listened to Tristan und Isolde daily. Literally, daily. Never missing. When I wake up, or when I go to sleep, I listen. When I listen to other music, even other Wagner, I am overcome by the uncontrollable desire to switch and listen to Tristan und Isolde. This is not a joke. It is the air I breathe. It is the sole reason for my existence. I thought, like all other music I have listened to, it would "peak" and I'd eventually lose interest. Not so. The more I listen, the more I am enraptured. The more I can learn. The more I desire. I cannot stop it. Everything else: Verdi, Mozart, Beethoven, Stravinsky: flippant crap. I have a problem. Help me.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Other than that, plug yourself in to another opera, put your mp3 player in your rucksack & set off in the dark across fields.

Believe me you won't want to stop, get out the flash-light, remove rucksack & root about in rucksack to change the opera. Works for me.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

It's all good unless it will lead you to overdose which could cause inability to listen to it more in future.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

I'm very interested in taking this drug, but, so far, my body has resisted it.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Couchie said:


> I have a problem. Admittance is the first step. For over a year now, I have listened to Tristan und Isolde daily. Literally, daily. Never missing. When I wake up, or when I go to sleep, I listen. When I listen to other music, even other Wagner, I am overcome by the uncontrollable desire to switch and listen to Tristan und Isolde. This is not a joke. It is the air I breathe. It is the sole reason for my existence. I thought, like all other music I have listened to, it would "peak" and I'd eventually lose interest. Not so. The more I listen, the more I am enraptured. The more I can learn. The more I desire. I cannot stop it. Everything else: Verdi, Mozart, Beethoven, Stravinsky: flippant crap. I have a problem. Help me.


And I thought my _Fidelio_ habit was bad . . .


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Tristan und Isolde Addiction- I have a problem. Admittance is the first step...

I cannot help you. I am afflicted with the same malady. So it has been since Tristan und Isolde became the very first opera I ever listened to in its entirety. Right beside me, on my computer desk, I have the Naxos Historical disc which features Flagstad & Melchior in highlights from T&I as well as Furtwangler's recording... although Karajan's icily erotic versions remains my personal favorite. I also have any number of highlights downloaded on my hard-drive from You-Tube. Here... get your daily fix:











And I thought my Fidelio habit was bad . . . 

I'm sorry... but there's nothing that can be done for you. There is little research being done upon these more obscure illnesses. Scientific effort is currently focused upon the major ailments: Le Nozze di Figaro Addiction, Don Giovanni Syndrome, Die Zauberflöte Disorder, La Traviata Epidemic, La Boheme Malady, and of course the insidious Das Ring Worm.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

I say go for it. Mental health is overrated.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

I'll volunteer to help both you and Stlukes. I'll be generous enough to make my mailbox available as the cure for your ailments. Just send all your versions of Tristan und Isolde to me as gifts. If you impulsively buy another one, send it to me as well. Make of this a habit - whatever version you buy, you send to Almaviva - and your addiction will be cured. Since you guys are esteemed TC members, I won't even charge you for the treatment.:angel:


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Almaviva said:


> I'll volunteer to help both you and Stlukes. I'll be generous enough to make my mailbox available as the cure to your ailments. Just send all your versions of Tristan und Isolde to me as gifts. If you impulsively buy another one, send it to me as well. Make of this a habit - whatever version you buy, you send to Almaviva - and your addiction will be cured. Since you guys are esteemed TC members, I won't even charge you for the treatment.:angel:


Since I see you showing signs of your own serious avarice problem, I prescribe that you forward any copies you receive on to me.

I'm just looking out for you, buddy.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> I'll volunteer to help both you and Stlukes. I'll be generous enough to make my mailbox available as the cure to your ailments. Just send all your versions of Tristan und Isolde to me as gifts. If you impulsively buy another one, send it to me as well. Make of this a habit - whatever version you buy, you send to Almaviva - and your addiction will be cured. Since you guys are esteemed TC members, I won't even charge you for the treatment.:angel:


Uh oh. In a compulsive buying blur, I _just_ bought the full 700-page orchestral score, with expedited shipping!

I feel like I'm going about this all wrong... :devil:


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Couchie said:


> Uh oh. In a compulsive buying blur, I _just_ bought the full 700-page orchestral score, with expedited shipping!
> 
> I feel like I'm going about this all wrong... :devil:


I'll take that too (although I'm not sure I'll have an use for it, but I can always sell it on EBay).:devil:


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> I'll take that too (although I'm not sure I'll have an use for it, but I can always sell it on EBay).:devil:


Perhaps if I can _understand_ it, I can defeat it - first step would be a thorough study of the score to learn its secrets.


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## jdavid (Oct 4, 2011)

Yes, it is an addiction. Niestsche, Neitsche, Niestsche, nbbdfsfgm, however the %&^# you spell that man's name once reputedly said that 'Wagner was the first composer to make music pornographic'...if that's the case, and sex is the 2nd most powerful urge we labor under, (the first being a couple of Ding Dongs and a glass of milk), I don't see much hope for you. I wouldn't worry tho, I'd just wallow in it. 



Couchie said:


> I have a problem. Admittance is the first step. For over a year now, I have listened to Tristan und Isolde daily. Literally, daily. Never missing. When I wake up, or when I go to sleep, I listen. When I listen to other music, even other Wagner, I am overcome by the uncontrollable desire to switch and listen to Tristan und Isolde. This is not a joke. It is the air I breathe. It is the sole reason for my existence. I thought, like all other music I have listened to, it would "peak" and I'd eventually lose interest. Not so. The more I listen, the more I am enraptured. The more I can learn. The more I desire. I cannot stop it. Everything else: Verdi, Mozart, Beethoven, Stravinsky: flippant crap. I have a problem. Help me.


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## AmericanGesamtkunstwerk (May 9, 2011)

Couchie said:


> Perhaps if I can _understand_ it, I can defeat it - first step would be a thorough study of the score to learn its secrets.


easier said than done


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Aramis said:


> It's all good unless it will lead you to overdose which could cause inability to listen to it more in future.


Agreed.

Yep, Couchie, beware of overkill. I did it with Ravel's _Daphnis et Chloe_. Listened to it over a dozen times in a fortnight when I got it on cd. Now I basically can't stand it, through no fault of it's own...


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

Couchie said:


> Perhaps if I can _understand_ it, I can defeat it - first step would be a thorough study of the score to learn its secrets.


...and with this, you've independently arrived at one of the processes I was about to suggest. Also, try this:

Imagine yourself as a listener in Wagner's time. You're preparing to hear a performance- and live in a time when you might not hear another performance for two years, minimum. Now (score in hand) _really_ listen. Listen as though there's a chance you might never hear it again (which, in Victorian-era Western Europe, was a very real possibility).

Then, try to make it through a week without hearing it. You're not without compensating outlets, though. Looking at the score is okay. Reading commentaries about the opera is okay. [Ernest Newman's is a pretty good one.] After all, outlets such as these were available to our 19th century forefathers, so we ougntn't close ourselves to them.

Then, when you can't last another day, listen again... as though you'll never hear it again. Focus as though anything you miss is something you'll forever miss. After doing so, you'll have a chance of having these things occur-

1) Your understanding of _Tristan und Isolde_ will be keener than ever.
2) You'll recognize that _Tristan und Isolde_ is not and was never intended to be auditioned with great frequency.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> and of course the insidious Das Ring Worm.


:lol::lol::lol:


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> . . . and of course the insidious Das Ring Worm.


_Ein grässlicher Rachen
reisst sich mir auf:
der Wurm will mich fangen!_


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

*Historical Tristans with Flagstad.............*

 1936 Reiner

 1937 Beecham

Any comments on these two, both feature Melchior & Flagstad near peak vocal years.....
Sound quality and performance comments?

This is a companion to go with the Furtwangler version I already have, what say ye all?


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

As far as I'm aware there are the following complete Isolde recordings with Flagstad, some published, some just shared among opera aficionados:


-1935 (MET): Bodanzsky 
-1936 (Covent Garden): Reiner 
-1937 (MET): Bodanzsky 
-1937 (Covent Garden): Beecham 
-1938 (MET): Bodanzsky 
-1939 (MET): Bodanzsky 
-1940 (MET): Leinsdorf 
-1941 (MET): Leinsdorf 
-1948 (Colón): Kleiber sr. 
-1952 (Studio): Furtwängler 

Of course, the better known and the best, in my view, are the 1936, with a young, powerful, devastating Flagstad and a good sound for a live take in the 1930s (and Sabine Kalter is a revelation as Brangäne... not that Margarete Klose falls far behind her, either, but Klose was a more established singer), and the mythical Furtwängler recording with a mature, marmoreal almost metaphysical Flagstad. 


The 1937 comes in a slightly poorer sound, in my view, but it's again formidable.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

schigolch said:


> As far as I'm aware there are the following complete Isolde recordings with Flagstad, some published, some just shared among opera aficionados:
> 
> -1935 (MET): Bodanzsky
> *-1936 (Covent Garden): Reiner
> ...


Thanks my order placed for the *Naxos 1936 Reiner*........sound very decent for that age, price very good


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

DarkAngel said:


> Thanks my order placed for the *Naxos 1936 Reiner*........sound very decent for that age, price very good


I agree. I have it, but I've only listened to excerpts, but I was very pleasantly surprised at the sound.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Is the EMI/Beecham recording even still in print? I've found a few versions on cheapo lables, but I'm always wary of those. I have heard good things of the Beecham recording... as well as the great version from Covent Garden 1936 (which I have). I'd also suggest you look into this Naxos disc:










It includes Selections from Tristan und Isolde as well as from Parsifal, Gotterdammerung, and Lohengrin:


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Come on guys, you're supposed to be helping Couchie with his addiction problem, not suggesting more recordings.

I've done my bit, now how about some aversion therapy so each time he reaches for the CD he gets an image of this.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

sospiro said:


> I've done my bit, now how about some aversion therapy so each time he reaches for the CD he gets an image of this.


We're talking about Couchie. He might *like* that.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Damn!! After spending some three hours shelving all the CDs I've accumulated over the pst 4 or 5 months and putting them in proper order I discovered a glaring failure in my collection that will in no way help me with my Tristan/Wagner obsession: I currently have more Brahms discs than discs by Wagner!!


Ackkk!!! I am disgraced. I must immediately order another Parsifal, Lohengrin, and Tristan und Isolde... if not yet another Ring cycle. Damn it I only have 4! It's disgraceful!!!


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Damn!! After spending some three hours shelving all the CDs I've accumulated over the pst 4 or 5 months and putting them in proper order I discovered a glaring failure in my collection that will in no way help me with my Tristan/Wagner obsession: I currently hace more Brahms discs than discs by Wagner!!
> 
> Ackkk!!! I am disgraced. I must immediately order another Parsifal, Lohengrin, and Tristan und Isolde... if not yet another Ring cycle. Damn it I only have 4! It's disgraceful!!!


Or just send me some Brahms.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

sospiro said:


> Come on guys, you're supposed to be helping Couchie with his addiction problem, not suggesting more recordings.
> 
> I've done my bit, now how about some aversion therapy so each time he reaches for the CD he gets an image of this.


I _wish_ I had hair, so I could house such cute little critters!


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Nothing compares to the last 7 minutes of Act 1 of the 1966 Böhm. Nothing. In. The. *******. Universe.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Couchie said:


> Nothing compares to the last 7 minutes of Act 1 of the 1966 Böhm. Nothing. In. The. *******. Universe.


May I suggest a thing to compare? Put this music next to a hare.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Aramis said:


> May I suggest a thing to compare? Put this music next to a hare.


The hare gets off to a fast start and an early lead, but soon becomes overconfident and stops by the side of the road to take a nap. Meanwhile the last seven minutes of the 1966 _Böhm_ Tristan crawls along at a slow and steady pace, ultimately overtaking the hare and crossing the finish line for a stunning victory.

There's a moral there, somewhere.


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## gpolyz (Nov 25, 2011)

Well, I can think of much more dangerous addictions!!! The quiet stilness of night is much more confortable than the noises of dyatime..


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## rollerphant (Oct 11, 2011)

Apparently, reading this thread is enough to spread this horrible affliction....as I appear to be deep within the throes of a consuming desire to listen to this opera daily. A pox on you! I'm also caught up in a conflict between the wondrousness of Furtwangler vs the Bohm/Nilsson version.....alas....


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

*Anyone have the newer Pappano conducted Tristan with Domingo?*

This gets rosette in latest Penguin guide, best of the best, is that a realistic rating............
(or just Penguin favoring the "home" UK team Pappano/ROH recording)


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I'll have to give it a spin. It's available on Spotify... although without the gapless playback its quite likely to irritate the hell out of me.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

DarkAngel said:


> *Anyone have the newer Pappano conducted Tristan with Domingo?*
> 
> This gets rosette in latest Penguin guide, best of the best, is that a realistic rating............
> (or just Penguin favoring the "home" UK team Pappano/ROH recording)


I also wonder if there's a certain preemptive nostalgia at work here, since this set has been repeatedly hailed (I'm not sure how accurately) as the last of the big, expensive studio opera recordings. A lot of critics looking forward to looking back on the Pappano _Tristan_ as the last of a dying breed.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

It's not the 'best of the best'. Far from it.

But it's good enough, however. I do like the recording, especially the mature Domingo, Stemme and, of course, Pape.


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

DarkAngel said:


> *Anyone have the newer Pappano conducted Tristan with Domingo?*
> 
> This gets rosette in latest Penguin guide, best of the best, is that a realistic rating............
> (or just Penguin favoring the "home" UK team Pappano/ROH recording)


No this is not anywhere Bohm's or Furtwangler's sets. Domingo was past his prime but it is worth hearing for Stemme when she was younger. Rene Pape is a great King Marke as well. There is also some luxury casting in some of the minor roles. If you can get a cheap copy (which I think you can) then it's worth checking out. I should add that Pappano does conduct well, but I think he would be even better now if he recorded it with Kaufmann.


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## MrCello (Nov 25, 2011)

At least you aren't addicted to the entirety of the ring cycle... like me....


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

Oh some of us are!


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Been listening and following the orchestral score these past few days. The singers who sing this thing to even the lowest rungs of competency are beyond-belief talented!


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Couchie said:


> Been listening and following the orchestral score these past few days. The singers who sing this thing to even the lowest rungs of competency are beyond-belief talented!


which recording?


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

B to the ö to the h to the m.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Couchie said:


> B to the ö to the h to the m.


i love 3 sided Tristans! 1 act per disc. no breaks..


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## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

This is very interesting news - 3 sides no breaks - when you can, I'd appreciate letting me know of any 3-disc Tristans that are out there. I hate the breaks too, and 3 sides just makes it seem shorter!



Itullian said:


> i love 3 sided Tristans! 1 act per disc. no breaks..


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

DarkAngel said:


> *Anyone have the newer Pappano conducted Tristan with Domingo?*
> 
> This gets rosette in latest Penguin guide, best of the best, is that a realistic rating............
> (or just Penguin favoring the "home" UK team Pappano/ROH recording)


Me, me, me- I got it!

I wouldn't get in an argument with anyone who says it's seriously excellent.

Another interesting thing about this package is that it _also_ has a single-disc sound-and-libretto only DVD that you can put in your DVD-player- and listen through the entire opera THAT way. If you have your television able to patch through to your 'hi-fi" (and really, I'm about as low-tech as they come, and I was able to do this wiring without too much trouble), then it's a unique way to take in the opera.

I sort of wish that they could have changed the background scenery to the libretto for each act... but that's sort of a carp in what (for me, anyway) has been a worthwhile recording.


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## eorrific (May 14, 2011)

How fare TC's Tristan addicts? I think we should start an anonymous T&I meeting, because I had tried to be abstinent and have utterly failed, and even got two new recordings : Kleiber's 1974 Bayreuth and Barenboim's 2007 La Scala (DVD, and hey! each of the three DVDs contain one complete act).


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

I looooooooooooooooooooooooove Tristan und Isolde very very very deeeeeeeeeeply

Martin


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## eorrific (May 14, 2011)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> I looooooooooooooooooooooooove Tristan und Isolde very very very deeeeeeeeeeply
> 
> Martin


Even more so than Tristan and Isolde had loved each other?


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

eorrific said:


> Even more so than Tristan and Isolde had loved each other?


well...not THAT much. LOL

In Russian we have Ia ochien liubliu (I love very much) and mnie ochien nravitsa (I like a lot)...There is no confusion between these two terms.

Martin


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## rollerphant (Oct 11, 2011)

Though the addiction continues....I have discovered that withdrawal can successfully be treated by long doses of Parsifal....


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Parsifal? I'm not a big fan of this last opera...are you?

Martin


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## rollerphant (Oct 11, 2011)

For me, Tristan and Isolde is like swimming in the ocean and being carried out to sea by the undertow. Parsifal is more like being on a sailboat with a bright blue sea and a cloudless sky.......two different approaches to the romance of water


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Hearing everyone's passion for T & I, I really wish it would click for me. I just can't get in to it and I'd love to based on the rapture everyone else seems to experience!


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

rollerphant said:


> Though the addiction continues....I have discovered that withdrawal can successfully be treated by long doses of Parsifal....


You mean 5 minutes of the first act?

Pa-ching, pa-ching, bop-de-wah-deh lah. Booh-yah.


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## glaeken (Mar 6, 2012)

My first introduction to Wagner was from Boorman's EXCALIBUR, which makes much use of his music. I hate opera, but love that overture from T&I.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Meistersinger


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

rollerphant said:


> For me, Tristan and Isolde is like swimming in the ocean and being carried out to sea by the undertow. Parsifal is more like being on a sailboat with a bright blue sea and a cloudless sky.......two different approaches to the romance of water


Parsifal as well as Tannhaüser have that *religious aspect *that I hate. I love Lohengrin though.

Martin


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Itullian said:


> Meistersinger


I really don't enjoy this opera.

Martin


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Parsifal as well as Tannhaüser have that *religious aspect *that I hate.


I am not sure what Wagner's theology was when he composed Parsifal, but at the time of composing Tannhäuser he was a total atheist. That final praise hymn is awesome though.

As for Parsifal, I have seen it being referred to as "pagan" or "sacrilegious" here and on other forums, but in effect it is just a variation on the Biblical theme of sin and redemption. Nothing pagan there at all.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> I really don't enjoy this opera.
> 
> Martin


:scold:...............


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Itullian said:


> Meistersinger


But you can't go Tristan uuuuuuuuuuyoooondt. Isolde?


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## Sator (Jan 23, 2011)

SiegendesLicht said:


> I am not sure what Wagner's theology was when he composed Parsifal, but at the time of composing Tannhäuser he was a total atheist. That final praise hymn is awesome though.
> 
> As for Parsifal, I have seen it being referred to as "pagan" or "sacrilegious" here and on other forums, but in effect it is just a variation on the Biblical theme of sin and redemption. Nothing pagan there at all.


Even towards the end of his life, around the time that he was completing _Parsifal_, in his essay_ Religion and Art_, Wagner quotes Schiller's "ahnest Du den Schöpfer, Welt?" only to dismisses this idea of the _Judenweltmacher_ (Jewish Creator of the world) as an "anthropomorphic metaphor"*. In the whole of _Parsifal_, God is never mentioned once. Parsifal's enlightenment comes not from God, from above or outside, but comes from within - through the awakening to the suffering of the world and compassion for it. Of course, this is the fundamental tenet of Buddhism. Like Schopenhauer, Wagner thought that this represented the true essence of Christianity, redeemed of the Judenweltmacher Jehovah - the Hebrew tribal God of war and storms. It is a humanistic interpretation of Christ, as a teacher of love and compassion. It is, in essence, the "piety of the Godless" to use a phrase from Nietzsche.

*See p321 _Religion und Kunst_ in Gesammelte Schriften und Dichtungen Band X. Hrsg. Fritsch, Leipzig, 1883


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Sator said:


> In the whole of _Parsifal_, God is never mentioned once. Parsifal's enlightenment comes not from God, from above or outside, but comes from within - through the awakening to the suffering of the world and compassion for it. Of course, this is the fundamental tenet of Buddhism.


Well, maybe Wagner never mentions God direstly but words like "Heiland" (Savior) and "Herr" (Lord) are difficult to misunderstand. And Parsifal was able to sympathize with Amfortas's pain only after experiencing the same temptation Amfortas had undergone, very much like the biblical Christ who "has been tempted in every way just as we are".

And I am not saying Wagner himself was a Bible-believing Christian, but only that one will not find anything directly sacrilegious in Parsifal, if only one reads the text itself and not some Freudian interpretation of it.


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

I've been listening to the Barenboim's version. Impressive, especially the sound; he really milks the virtuosity of the orchestra and the texture of the sound is incredible, noticed horns in the Prelude to act II that I've never heard of before. All all the great composer's only Wagner (and occasionally Mahler) is a challenge to merely play all the notes. 

One of the best conducted stereo Tristans, that and Kleiber's. 

Remarkably, I was disappointed with Solti's handling of Tristan; maybe because it was string heavy and a different animal from the Ring. 

The lead singers leave much to be desired but at least the conducting doesn't; for better singing in stereo I'd have to choose between Karajan and Bohm.

The problem with Solti is that he conducts the brass and the strings as separate entities; the problem with Karajan is that he can only conduct either only one or the other at the same time hence the homogeneous gooey sound as if he were afraid that the music was too complex for the listener whose head would explode from inability to sonically digest the rich orchestral sound since at the time he had access to good enough sonic engineering to achieve orchestral balance, or maybe he just sucked, we'll never know; Bohm? Let's just run slipshod over everything. The Nilsson/Windgassen record had potential to be nearly perfect, it was the best cast in the stereo era, perhaps ever. 

I wish Kubelik had recorded Tristan. 

In fact I wish that Karajan had died in 1959 and Kubelik helmed Karajan's recordings.

Top wish list of things I'd do if I had a time machine. 
1. 1954, get Knappertsbusch to conduct the 1955 Ring. 
2. 1957 kidnap Culshaw's family and make him have Knappertsbusch record the stereo Ring with the VPO, and Tristan, Meistersinger, and Parsifal. 
3. 1959 Assassinate Karajan. OK maybe not. Kidnap him and keep him in a dungeon somewhere?


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Wagner stated: "Religion is the contemptible consolation of the week" ... If that isnt Sacrilegious...


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

emiellucifuge said:


> Wagner stated: "Religion is the contemptible consolation of the week" ... If that isnt Sacrilegious...


Wagner also wrote Parsifal.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

brianwalker said:


> Wagner also wrote Parsifal.


Parsifal is based on an apocryphal medieval legend with strong pagan influence...


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## AmericanGesamtkunstwerk (May 9, 2011)

emiellucifuge said:


> Wagner stated: "Religion is the contemptible consolation of the week" ... If that isnt Sacrilegious...
> 
> 
> brianwalker said:
> ...


Well, keep in mind that none of these views are betrayed because one must realize that he had his own place somewhere on the spectrum of organized religion vs. disorganized religion. Well versed in Bible-as-creed, Bible-as-mythology, ancient polytheisms, medieval paganism, and relgion/philosophy of the far East; he had his unique balance and even coexistence of all these things that comes together to shine a *mysticism* through Parsifal that is shared in every angle of analysis.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

In Parsifal, nobody is redeemed by god, they are redeemed by a compassionate man.

Really the morality of it has more to do with Schopenhauer and Buddhism than Christianity.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

AmericanGesamtkunstwerk said:


> Well, keep in mind that none of these views are betrayed because one must realize that he had his own place somewhere on the spectrum of organized religion vs. disorganized religion. Well versed in Bible-as-creed, Bible-as-mythology, ancient polytheisms, medieval paganism, and relgion/philosophy of the far East; he had his unique balance and even coexistence of all these things that comes together to shine a *mysticism* through Parsifal that is shared in every angle of analysis.


This is a sexy post.


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## AmericanGesamtkunstwerk (May 9, 2011)

emiellucifuge said:


> In Parsifal, nobody is redeemed by god, they are redeemed by a compassionate man.
> 
> Really the morality of it has more to do with Schopenhauer and Buddhism than Christianity.


well, i almost mentioned Schopenhauer, but then I would've had to mention Nietzche. and then it would've gotten really really really really really complicated, and then we might start thinking less of each other. if you know what i mean.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Well go on, Id like to know exactly what Nietzsche has to do with it?


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## AmericanGesamtkunstwerk (May 9, 2011)

emiellucifuge said:


> Well go on, Id like to know exactly what Nietzsche has to do with it?


well, 


> "Parsifal is a work of perfidy, of vindictiveness, of a secret attempt to poison the presuppositions of life - a bad work. The preaching of chastity remains an incitement to anti-nature: I despise everyone who does not experience Parsifal as an attempted assassination of basic ethics."


But that's just the beginning. what is truly _complicated _is Wagner's version of the übermensch reading to some (there's no easy way to say this) Aryan. I am not talking about the validity of such a claim, the ins outs of Nietsche vs. Wagner, or the ins outs of their very very misunderstood place in mid 20th century political culture (ifya know what i mean). All I'm saying is, it can be a very very treacherous path of conversation.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

I am aware of Nietzsche's opinions on Parsifal - perhaps im being stupid, but I dont follow your train of thought or why it is relevant to what I posted?


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## AmericanGesamtkunstwerk (May 9, 2011)

emiellucifuge said:


> I am aware of Nietzsche's opinions on Parsifal - perhaps im being stupid, but I dont follow your train of thought or why it is relevant to what I posted?


I have often come across conversations that turn into the more complex side of morality in Parsifal once Schopenhauer is brought in, only because some of Nietzche's morality is developed upon Schop's.

point is: I had my reasons for leaving the two of them out of my initial post, but they are indeed valid and worth posting about.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

I have found myself listening to _at least_ the prelude to act 1 and the Liebestod (I still don't had a CD recording of the whole thing) every day. I can't get it out of my head and I've been watching the DVD performance conducted by Daniel Barenboim every time I gt a chance. I think I may be starting to get a Tristan und Isolde addiction.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I have found myself listening to _at least_ the prelude to act 1 and the Liebestod (I still don't had a CD recording of the whole thing) every day. I can't get it out of my head and I've been watching the DVD performance conducted by Daniel Barenboim every time I gt a chance. I think I may be starting to get a Tristan und Isolde addiction.


Get the Bohm CD ASAP. You really haven't heard the Liebestod until you've heard it rise with psychotic redemption out of the universe of emotional devastation that is the 3rd act of Tristan.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Couchie said:


> Get the Bohm CD ASAP. You really haven't heard the Liebestod until you've heard it rise with psychotic redemption out of the universe of emotional devastation that is the 3rd act of Tristan.


I really want to get that. I've also been looking at some recording with Daniel Barenboim conducting BPO with Siegfried Jerusalem etc. as the DVD I have of them I really enjoy (especially act III). What are your thoughts on that recording?


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I really want to get that. I've also been looking at some recording with Daniel Barenboim conducting BPO with Siegfried Jerusalem etc. as the DVD I have of them I really enjoy (especially act III). What are your thoughts on that recording?


I don't have it. I didn't know you had that DVD. That is the best DVD of anything.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Couchie said:


> I don't have it. I didn't know you had that DVD. That is the best DVD of anything.


I agree. I love that DVD.


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## Glissando (Nov 25, 2011)

I also suffer from this addiction. I think this is clearly Wagner's best opera, and perhaps in the top two or three operas ever composed. The music is so rich and deep that it only gets better as you continue to listen to it. My favorite parts:

- when Brangane comforts Isolde on the ship, misunderstanding Isolde's lament about having to face a future unloved. Brangane tells her anyone in his right mind would love her. Brangane and Kurwenal are great archetypes of the loyal servant with feudal notions of honor. 
- the part where Tristan first makes his way to meet with Isolde on the ship, and the brass plays a rising three-note motif that I swear was later quoted in 'The Rite of Spring'
- the opening of act 2, with the horn calls in the distance and Isolde beautifully saying that she only hears the rustling of the leaves and the rushing of the brook.
- the act 2 'Love Duet,' of course -- absolutely epic
- Tristan's part in act 3 where he sings about learning of his parents' death, while the shepherd's horn accompanies him. This brief story of his is sad yet also so beautiful that one doesn't come away from it sad. There seems to be a thread running through Wagner's operas where male characters recall their parents' deaths. Parsifal, Siegfried and Tristan all do it at some point.
- the Liebestod, of course -- one of the fullest, most sublime orchestral sounds ever created

The Barenboim DVD is wonderful. Johanna Meier does a great job, I think, particularly in Act 1, which is dominated by Isolde.


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

Glissando said:


> clearly Wagner's best opera


Which of the other operas have you fully digested?


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## Glissando (Nov 25, 2011)

brianwalker said:


> Which of the other operas have you fully digested?


I've fully digested Parsifal, all of The Ring, and Tannhauser, all of which I really like, especially 'Gotterdammerung.' I do think that all of those operas have plots and characters that aren't as effective as Tristan's, however. Admittedly, I've only seen an hour of Die Meistersingers, and I wasn't too keen on it. I need to dig back into it, though, because I've heard from lots of people that it really is a great opera.

I haven't seen Flying Dutchman or Lohengrin, although, as those are commonly classed as the early pre-'music drama' operas that are not at the high level of the late works, I felt comfortable in assuming that Tristan is better than them. I know that's not technically justifiable, though. 

Tristan is just so awesome that I didn't feel out of line in making that claim.


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## Pimlicopiano (Oct 23, 2014)

See it in the opera house. You'll see what a clunky slow opera it is to watch with odd moments of action when people get stabbed. Fine with the lights off of course, but nigh impossible to stage in a way that can hold an audience's attention. I remember with horror a version from quite a few years ago at either the ROH or ENO that involved the two protagonists, both of ample form, rolling around at opposite sides of the stage like Tweedledee and Tweedledum in endless agonies of ecstasy for what seemed an eternity - never touching, never kissing, never connecting, even during the one bit when they are supposed to. One dose of a performance like that should do for any obsession.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Pimlicopiano said:


> See it in the opera house. You'll see what a clunky slow opera it is to watch with odd moments of action when people get stabbed. Fine with the lights off of course, but nigh impossible to stage in a way that can hold an audience's attention. I remember with horror a version from quite a few years ago at either the ROH or ENO that involved the two protagonists, both of ample form, rolling around at opposite sides of the stage like Tweedledee and Tweedledum in endless agonies of ecstasy for what seemed an eternity - never touching, never kissing, never connecting, even during the one bit when they are supposed to. One dose of a performance like that should do for any obsession.


Sorry you saw such awful productions.
In a good production, it's an awesome experience with amazing music imo.


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

Pimlicopiano said:


> One dose of a performance like that should do for any obsession.


I fear nothing more than a poor performance of _Tristan_. I haven't had the chance to attend one yet, but I would want to be _very_ careful to insure that the best available singers/director/conductor are involved. I've spoiled myself with the likes of Flagstad, Melchior, and Nilsson, so it's partially my own fault for practically ensuring that I will be disappointed.

Seeing a bad performance would be worse than drowning. It chills me just to think of it.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

A question for T&I fans, why is it that I prefer Act 2? There's just a glorious flow and beauty to it that I don't get from anything else. If there's something better I really need to know.


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

Alexander said:


> A question for T&I fans, why is it that I prefer Act 2? There's just a glorious flow and beauty to it that I don't get from anything else. If there's something better I really need to know.


There isn't, Alexander. Act 2 is the "heart" of _Tristan_, both symbolically and musically. It doesn't contain "highlights" in the sense that Italian opera does. Every note is essential. If it doesn't achieve perfection, it certainly comes close.

Here are a couple of reasons I love it:

1. We hear the hunting horns of Melot's party through Isolde's ears. We would expect them to sound brash and frightening, but everything to Isolde sounds joyful because she is mad with love for Tristan. The psychological insight of Wagner astounds me.

2. After Isolde throws down the light, the low strings come in with an ascending figure that tells us Tristan is coming. What follows must be the most memorable character entrance in all of opera.

3. The lovers' duet is followed by an equally sublime warning from Brangaene - which we also hear through the ears of the lovers. It should frighten us, but instead we're as captivated by it as they are.

4. And last but not least, the "coitus interruptus" of King Marke's entrance. It is devastating and we long for the _Liebestod_ in Act 3 when their love will finally be fulfilled through death.


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## Loge (Oct 30, 2014)

Pimlicopiano said:


> See it in the opera house. You'll see what a clunky slow opera it is to watch with odd moments of action when people get stabbed. Fine with the lights off of course, but nigh impossible to stage in a way that can hold an audience's attention. I remember with horror a version from quite a few years ago at either the ROH or ENO that involved the two protagonists, both of ample form, rolling around at opposite sides of the stage like Tweedledee and Tweedledum in endless agonies of ecstasy for what seemed an eternity - never touching, never kissing, never connecting, even during the one bit when they are supposed to. One dose of a performance like that should do for any obsession.


Man you have no ears. The opera is not on the stage but in the music. The whole point of Tristan und Islode is that there is very little action on stage, but a tremendous amount of action in the music. Drama wise the whole opera could take place in 15 minutes, but Wagner stretches this for the pain of love. It is no coincidence that Luis Buñuel uses this music in L'Age d'Or.

I saw Tistan und Islode at the ROH last year and it was the quickest five hours of my life. Each act was over before they began. At the end I was so pumped up that I could have listened it again, if the cast had the energy!

Here is how Buñuel used the music






And he uses the Liebestod, so you don't have to go through the five hour experience.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

Go listen to the antidote: Debussy's Pelléas et Mélisande (Abbado). Beware, the first time might get a bit boring but the second may trigger addiction due to the cyclical nature of the plot finally making some sense and your ears catching all its hidden colours.


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

Pimlicopiano said:


> in endless agonies of ecstasy for what seemed an eternity - never touching, never kissing, never connecting, even during the one bit when they are supposed to


This is in fact what it's all about... perfectly captured in music. Is there a piece of music that has a suspence as extreme as Tristan ? In the whole of European classical music it's a milestone, a turning point. Music was never the same after Tristan. If you want the shorter version... it's often performed in concerts - only in Tristan, no other opera has this.

I think for many of us here opera and music is like food and drink - no living without. So a Tristan addiction ? Not an issue


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Originally Posted by Pimlicopiano:

in endless agonies of ecstasy for what seemed an eternity - never touching, never kissing, never connecting, even during the one bit when they are supposed to



Dongiovanni said:


> This is in fact what it's all about... perfectly captured in music. Is there a piece of music that has a suspence as extreme as Tristan ? In the whole of European classical music it's a milestone, a turning point. Music was never the same after Tristan. If you want the shorter version... it's often performed in concerts - only in Tristan, no other opera has this.


I must dispute the idea that "never touching, never kissing, never connecting, even during the one bit when they are supposed to" is what the opera is about. Pimlicopiano was describing a production of _Tristan_ he saw and disliked. Whatever else it is, this is a love story. Wagner specifically calls for the lovers to embrace several times, to recline together in their night of love, and to kiss at the end of the second act; he wanted his characters to act like human beings - in this case, two young people passionately in love - not impersonal mouthpieces for some philosophical concept. For a stage director to keep them physically apart in order to "explain" to us that their love is frustrated is an insult to our intelligence and a misrepresentation of the work.

I'm glad not to have seen that production. It was bad enough watching the Met's production of some years back, in which the Tristan and Isolde were so massive they could barely reach over their protruding guts to find each others lips (and didn't even try)!


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

I don't think this opera is ever going to click for me  I've given it my best go and different versions. Well, they can't please us all I suppose. That's ok, I have plenty of Kaufmann Wagner, orchestral highlights and Rhinegold. Those are just more my Wagner. I think maybe I like my love music done up a bit differently.


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

Was listening to this opera for the last week, and finally listened to the Liebestod properly for the first time. I was deeply touched by the conclusion - it was majestic, heart-felt, beautiful and musically interesting. Its emotional impact is beyond most works of music that I have ever heard.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Sonata said:


> I don't think this opera is ever going to click for me  I've given it my best go and different versions. Well, they can't please us all I suppose. That's ok, I have plenty of Kaufmann Wagner, orchestral highlights and Rhinegold. Those are just more my Wagner. *I think maybe I like my love music done up a bit differently.*


Sibelius said: "Wagner shouts 'I love you, I love you. To me, 'I love you' is something to be whispered."


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Sonata said:


> I don't think this opera is ever going to click for me  I've given it my best go and different versions. Well, they can't please us all I suppose. That's ok, I have plenty of Kaufmann Wagner, orchestral highlights and *Rhinegold*. Those are just more my Wagner. I think maybe I like my love music done up a bit differently.


You like Das Rheingold?


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Itullian said:


> You like Das Rheingold?


I've only listened through the whole way once, plus what I've heard on highlights. But yes I do.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Sonata said:


> I've only listened through the whole way once, plus what I've heard on highlights. But yes I do.


The more you hear it, the more wonders you will hear.
It's an amazing opera


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Found this on Youtube. Alberto Remedios as Tristan and Linda Esther Gray as Isolde with Goodall conducting. English national Opera in 1981. In English!!


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Does anyone know how comprehensive this list is? Any glaring omissions?

Wikipedia Tristan und Isolde discography


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> Found this on Youtube. Alberto Remedios as Tristan and Linda Esther Gray as Isolde with Goodall conducting. English national Opera in 1981. In English!!


That was no help at all I would probably understand more in most recordings in German.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Sloe said:


> That was no help at all I would probably understand more in most recordings in German.


I'm afraid I have to agree. I had to follow it with Andrew Porter's singing translation to understand it at all. The diction is not the best but I wonder if it is possible that our ears are attuned to hearing it in German even if we're not native German speakers? Hence the problem hearing it in English. Just a thought.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> I'm afraid I have to agree. I had to follow it with Andrew Porter's singing translation to understand it at all. The diction is not the best but I wonder if it is possible that our ears are attuned to hearing it in German even if we're not native German speakers? Hence the problem hearing it in English. Just a thought.


I think it is because of bad diction and bad sound quality.
I have heard translated recordings of operas were I can hear every word.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Barbebleu said:


> I'm afraid I have to agree. I had to follow it with Andrew Porter's singing translation to understand it at all. The diction is not the best but I wonder if it is possible that our ears are attuned to hearing it in German even if we're not native German speakers? Hence the problem hearing it in English. Just a thought.


Do you speak German, even if not as a native?

I've heard excerpts from Goodall's Ring in English recently, and I kept hearing the German words instead of the English ones, probably because I had heard this music in German so many times that my memory now keeps suggesting me what the words should sound like. The ears are definitely attuned.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I wonder if Wagner meant that when they die, that's their tragic end or that somehow they're together in an afterlife?


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Itullian said:


> I wonder if Wagner meant that when they die, that's their tragic end or that somehow they're together in an afterlife?


It seems clear during the Liebestod final aria that Isolde has a glorious vision of Tristan in spiritual form among the stars calling out to her, she call feel him, senses his presence and longs to drown with him in a beautiful rapture, she wants to join him in this universal state of bliss......and surrenders joyfully to these desires with her final breath. So not a tragic end but a glorious spiritual union of eternal love (at least in her mind for a brief moment)

Also remember the stage is set previously when they consummate their love at night in the garden, Tristan laments that only in the night can they be happy and their love flow freely, the daylight is their enemy........the eternal night can be symbolic of death and only there will they find happiness and true eternal love....


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

DarkAngel said:


> It seems clear during the Liebestod final aria that Isolde has a glorious vision of Tristan in spiritual form among the stars calling out to her, she call feel him, senses his presence and longs to drown with him in a beautiful rapture, she wants to join him in this universal state of bliss......and surrenders joyfully to these desires with her final breath. So not a tragic end but a glorious spiritual union of eternal love (*at least in her mind for a brief moment*)
> 
> Also remember the stage is set previously when* they consummate their love *at night in the garden, Tristan laments that only in the night can they be happy and their love flow freely, the daylight is their enemy........the eternal night can be symbolic of death and only there will they find happiness and true eternal love....


Do they consummate their love? rette dich, Tristan 

And that's what I mean, is it just a wild delusion on her part because she so wants to be with him.
Does Wagner keep it open or do you think he points to one way or the other?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Do you speak German, even if not as a native?
> 
> I've heard excerpts from Goodall's Ring in English recently, and I kept hearing the German words instead of the English ones, probably because I had heard this music in German so many times that my memory now keeps suggesting me what the words should sound like. The ears are definitely attuned.


I listened to the first two acts of this and experienced the same cognitive dissonance. I kept expecting the German but hearing something else. Horrible! Wagner set words with great care, and the translation simply does not work for me. Linda Esther Gray is an excellent Isolde and her diction is pretty good, though still hard to hear at many points. Remedios doesn't sound like a Tristan voice and his diction tends to be mush: no consonants. I got only moderate pleasure from this, mainly when Isolde was singing, but I will never listen to this dreary translation again.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Itullian said:


> Do they consummate their love? rette dich, Tristan
> 
> And that's what I mean, is it just a wild delusion on her part because she so wants to be with him.
> Does Wagner keep it open or do you think he points to one way or the other?


I don't think the lovers are united in death. I accept the story as a tragedy, not a fantasy. The day world destroys them. But Isolde is granted a vision of union and bliss. In many productions she does not actually die and even sings her "Liebestod" standing up. I think this is wrong, and it isn't what Wagner wanted. In his stage directions she sinks "transfigured" on his body, and Marke raises his hand in blessing over the dead. As a representative of the day world, he honors the doomed lovers, but he and his world will go on without them.

This opera represents the last time Wagner attempted to show erotic love as a path to human fulfillment. He had, at this point, mixed feelings about it. The _Liebestod_ may glorify love, but love nonetheless proves an impossible dream with death as its only possible outcome. Knowing that he was pushing his subject to the limit, Wagner brings passion and ordinary life in the world of day into the most complete and irresovable conflict, but makes the meaning ambiguous by having the lovers long for the very death to which their situations destine them, attempting to convert it from defeat into fulfillment. And yet, ironically but predictably, they try to postpone the inevitable forever so that they can meet in glorious nights of love. Only Brangaene, singing from the tower, warns us of what's to come.

After _Tristan_ - and the happy interlude of _Die Meistersinger_ - Wagner would never again indulge in romantic illusions of final bliss. The happiness of Siegfried and Brunnhilde is over as soon as he goes out into the world, and at last it becomes clear to her that her destiny is not to live in contented bliss but to bring about "das Ende" which, in _Die Walkure_, her father had wished for. And finally, in _Parsifal_, the hero rejects the lure of sexual indulgence in conscious awareness that it will destroy him and the realm of the Grail which it is his mission to redeem.

Over the course of his life's work, Wagner explores, from many angles, the perennial Western mystique of romantic love as both physical passion and spiritual aspiration. In the end he declares it unambiguously to be an illusion. The tragedy of Tristan and Isolde was the crisis and turning point in his understanding.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

In one of Cornwell's Arthur series of books, the Tristan and Isolde relationship is a complicating factor, a tawdry tale of selfish adolescent infatuation leading to many unnecessary deaths.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Do you speak German, even if not as a native?
> 
> I've heard excerpts from Goodall's Ring in English recently, and I kept hearing the German words instead of the English ones, probably because I had heard this music in German so many times that my memory now keeps suggesting me what the words should sound like. The ears are definitely attuned.


I understand it better than I speak it but I can make myself understood when I'm in Germany on holiday. I think it it is forty years of listening to opera and lieder in German that has made me expect what to hear now. I once said something to someone in Berlin and while they complimented me on my pronunciation they were amused at the archaic Victorian expression that I used. Thanks for that Richard!


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I listened to the first two acts of this and experienced the same cognitive dissonance. I kept expecting the German but hearing something else. Horrible! Wagner set words with great care, and the translation simply does not work for me. Linda Esther Gray is an excellent Isolde and her diction is pretty good, though still hard to hear at many points. Remedios doesn't sound like a Tristan voice and his diction tends to be mush: no consonants. I got only moderate pleasure from this, mainly when Isolde was singing, but I will never listen to this dreary translation again.


Yes, I would totally agree. I love Remedios as Siegfried but he hasn't got the necessary vocal accomplishments for Tristan. He makes a rather nice Walther though. 
And as much as I love the ENO Ring I prefer to hear it in German. It just sounds right.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> I understand it better than I speak it but I can make myself understood when I'm in Germany on holiday. I think it it is forty years of listening to opera and lieder in German that has made me expect what to hear now. I once said something to someone in Berlin and while they complimented me on my pronunciation they were amused at the archaic Victorian expression that I used. Thanks for that Richard!


I don't speak German, but have sung it often and have picked up a bit from studying and listening to music. I know enough to realize that if I do visit German-speaking countries I am likely to inspire stares and smiles should I attempt to communicate in Walhallan or Nibelheimisch.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Itullian said:


> Do they consummate their love? rette dich, Tristan


Seems to me they're so busy singing their heads off they don't have time! :lol:


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> I don't think the lovers are united in death. *I accept the story as a tragedy, not a fantasy.* The day world destroys them. But Isolde is granted a vision of union and bliss. In many productions she does not actually die and even sings her "Liebestod" standing up. I think this is wrong, and it isn't what Wagner wanted. In his stage directions she sinks "transfigured" on his body, and Marke raises his hand in blessing over the dead. As a representative of the day world, he honors the doomed lovers, but he and his world will go on without them.
> 
> This opera represents the last time Wagner attempted to show erotic love as a path to human fulfillment. He had, at this point, mixed feelings about it. The _Liebestod_ may glorify love, but love nonetheless proves an impossible dream with death as its only possible outcome. Knowing that he was pushing his subject to the limit, Wagner brings passion and ordinary life in the world of day into the most complete and irresovable conflict, but makes the meaning ambiguous by having the lovers long for the very death to which their situations destine them, attempting to convert it from defeat into fulfillment. And yet, ironically but predictably, they try to postpone the inevitable forever so that they can meet in glorious nights of love. Only Brangaene, singing from the tower, warns us of what's to come.
> 
> ...


I think that I think that too.
That's why I always shed a tear at the very end. 
Maybe the night and day represent fantasy and reality?


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Seems to me they're so busy singing their heads off they don't have time! :lol:


Propriety forbids me from saying what _Tristan and Isolde_ sound like they're doing at the end of Act I in Karajan's incandescent Bayreuth performance.

Wagner- with the right conductor- is passion '_distilled_.'


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> *Propriety forbids me* from saying what _Tristan and Isolde_ sound like they're doing at the end of Act I in Karajan's incandescent Bayreuth performance.
> 
> Wagner- with the right conductor- is passion '_distilled_.'


Since when does propriety forbid the Marschallin anything? We know very well what went on before the curtain rose on _Rosenkavalier._


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> I don't think the lovers are united in death. *I accept the story as a tragedy, not a fantasy*. The day world destroys them. But Isolde is granted a vision of union and bliss. In many productions she does not actually die and even sings her "Liebestod" standing up. I think this is wrong, and it isn't what Wagner wanted. In his stage directions she sinks "transfigured" on his body, and Marke raises his hand in blessing over the dead. As a representative of the day world, he honors the doomed lovers, but he and his world will go on without them.
> 
> This opera represents the last time Wagner attempted to show erotic love as a path to human fulfillment. He had, at this point, mixed feelings about it. The _Liebestod_ may glorify love, but love nonetheless proves an impossible dream with death as its only possible outcome. Knowing that he was pushing his subject to the limit, Wagner brings passion and ordinary life in the world of day into the most complete and irresovable conflict, but makes the meaning ambiguous by having the lovers long for the very death to which their situations destine them, attempting to convert it from defeat into fulfillment. And yet, ironically but predictably, they try to postpone the inevitable forever so that they can meet in glorious nights of love. Only Brangaene, singing from the tower, warns us of what's to come.


I get a different impression of the ending of Tristan und Isolde that lies much closer to the positive ending after death vs tradegy, without trying to overthink what wagner really meant......just listen to the music composed by Wagner during and after Liebestod.

During the actual singing by Isolde the music slowly builds in swirling layers as her excitement and conviction grows, there is hope and optimism, a glorious theme is brought to climax with final utterance of Tristan's name......then to close the opera there are no ominous dark clouds or defeat heard in the music as if all hope is lost and this is just an illusion soon to be broken, no instead a calm peace an uplifting conclusion as notes float upward.......I get an almost unmistakable vision in my head of Isolde's spirit rising upward to join with Tristan, a very clear positive theme in the music for me......

I remember something in a Callas quote once where a reporter asked her how do you know what emotions are needed to sing a section, she said something to the effect that all you need to do is listen to the music, the composer has already thought of all these things and they are conveyed in the music.......*so using wagner's own music I cannot see how the ending of Tristan was meant to be a tragedy for Isolde*


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

A friend and I used to argue about whether T and I ever...you know..._did_ it. Wagner doesn't say. It's interesting that there's no evidence for Wagner and Mathilde Wesendonck ever having done it. Given her loyalty to her husband, Wagner's statement to his wife Minna that she "misunderstood" his relationship with Mathilde, and Wagner's continued cordial relationship with Otto Wesendonck, it seems unlikely that Mathilde was unfaithful. Nonetheless, she is often credited with having been the "inspiration" for the opera. It may be nearer the truth that the opera inspired the relationship. But in any case the question of T and I's physical relationship remains open. All we can say for sure is that the music gets pretty darned graphic, inspiring Clara Schumann to say, coming out of a performance, that it was the most disgusting thing she had ever heard in her entire life.

Has there ever been a more wonderful criticism of this opera? Go, Clara! :clap:


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Since when does propriety forbid the Marschallin anything? We know very well what went on before the curtain rose on _Rosenkavalier._


Well, its just a small matter of 'perception management.'

There was that pre-curtain inference of yours- certainly.

That is merely 'what is seen.'

'What was not seen' was the episode at the Countess' _soiree_ the night before.

_"Is that your boyfriend, Honey?. . . not anymore it isn't."_

Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

And that genius solo passage on the clarinet? could mean they are now one?


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

My, this thread has drifted: from T&I to Rosenkavalier...

N.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Propriety forbids me from saying what _Tristan and Isolde_ sound like they're doing at the end of Act I in Karajan's incandescent Bayreuth performance.
> 
> Wagner- with the right conductor- is passion '_distilled_.'


As someone once put it: "After that lot, she probably goes into her dressing room, undoes her corset and has a Guinness!" :lol:


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

DavidA said:


> As someone once put it: "After that lot, she probably goes into her dressing room, undoes her corset and has a Guinness!" :lol:


Oh, it never ends.

Why stop the parade?- join.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> A friend and I used to argue about whether T and I ever...you know..._did_ it. Wagner doesn't say. It's interesting that there's no evidence for Wagner and Mathilde Wesendonck ever having done it. Given her loyalty to her husband, Wagner's statement to his wife Minna that she "misunderstood" his relationship with Mathilde, and Wagner's continued cordial relationship with Otto Wesendonck, it seems unlikely that Mathilde was unfaithful. Nonetheless, she is often credited with having been the "inspiration" for the opera. It may be nearer the truth that the opera inspired the relationship. But in any case the question of T and I's physical relationship remains open. All we can say for sure is that the music gets pretty darned graphic, inspiring Clara Schumann to say, coming out of a performance, that it was the most disgusting thing she had ever heard in her entire life.
> 
> Has there ever been a more wonderful criticism of this opera? Go, Clara! :clap:


Go Clara- and go that other woman who all-too-well understood what _Bolero_ was really about at the ending of the piece.

Yes, music is more than 'just notes.'


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Back to T and I please


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Itullian said:


> Back to T and I please


Yes, I was commenting on Woodduck's honorable mention of Clara Schumann immediately and intuitively understanding the true meaning of _Tristan und Isolde_- or did you read my post.?


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

DarkAngel said:


> I get a different impression of the ending of Tristan und Isolde that lies much closer to the positive ending after death vs tradegy, without trying to overthink what wagner really meant......just listen to the music composed by Wagner during and after Liebestod.
> 
> During the actual singing by Isolde the music slowly builds in swirling layers as her excitement and conviction grows, there is hope and optimism, a glorious theme is brought to climax with final utterance of Tristan's name......then to close the opera there are no ominous dark clouds or defeat heard in the music as if all hope is lost and this is just an illusion soon to be broken, no instead a calm peace an uplifting conclusion as notes float upward.......I get an almost unmistakable vision in my head of Isolde's spirit rising upward to join with Tristan, a very clear positive theme in the music for me......
> 
> I remember something in a Callas quote once where a reporter asked her how do you know what emotions are needed to sing a section, she said something to the effect that all you need to do is listen to the music, the composer has already thought of all these things and they are conveyed in the music.......so using wagner's own music I cannot see how the ending of Tristan was meant to be a tragedy for Isolde


I can see your point too DA. And sometimes I lean that way too.
The solo clarinet pointing the way to a union.
A much more hopeful ending.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DarkAngel said:


> I get a different impression of the ending of Tristan that lies much closer to the positive ending vs tradegy, without trying to overthink what wagner really meant......just listen to the music composed by Wagner during and after Liebestod.
> 
> During the actual singing by Isolde the music slowly builds in swirling layers as her excitement and conviction grows, there is hope and optimism, a glorious theme is brought to climax with final utterance of Tristan's name......then to close the opera there are no ominous dark clouds or defeat heard in the music as if all hope is lost and this is justan illusion soon to be broken, no instead a calm peace an uplifting conclusion as notes float upward.......I get an almost unmistakable vision in my head of Isolde's spirit rising upward to join with Tristan, a very clear positive theme in the music for me......
> 
> I remember something in a Callas quote once where a reporter asked her how do you know how what emotions are needed to sing a section, she said something to the effect that all you need to do is listen to the music, the composer has already thought of all these things and they are conveyed in the music.......so using wagner's own music I cannot see how the ending of Tristan is a tragedy for Isolde


For Isolde, no. She dies in exaltation. Her vision is an illusion - her lover is still lying dead on the ground - but the illusion is glorious to her. But for Tristan? All he got was a minute with her before he died. And for Kurwenal? For Brangaene? For Marke?

Tragedy needn't be entirely without solace. Nonetheless, Marke's forgiveness came too late, and two people whom society could not sanction had to die because life was impossible for them. Wagner lets us go with Isolde into her dream of ecstasy, but the people who knew her cannot follow her and are merely grief-stricken. The music tells us, at the very end, that the ceaseless longing - the motif with the "Tristan chord" that began the opera - has finally ceased, and the last action we see is Marke blessing the bodies. This gesture is often omitted from performances, just as Isolde is often left standing as the curtain falls. But Wagner did not want the real human situation, the personal and social tragedy of it, completely obliterated for us as it is for Isolde. Her perspective is not Wagner's perspective, and shouldn't be ours.

The debate over whether the opera is a tragedy is an old one. If the lovers are actually united in death in some supernatural dimension, then we could call it a religious drama and no tragedy. But Wagner didn't take religion and mythology literally. It's impossible to believe that he intended for us to do so.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> For Isolde, no. She dies in exaltation. Her vision is an illusion - her lover is still lying dead on the ground - but the illusion is glorious to her. But for Tristan? All he got was a minute with her before he died. And for Kurwenal? For Brangaene? For Marke?
> 
> Tragedy needn't be entirely without solace. Nonetheless, Marke's forgiveness came too late, and two people whom society could not sanction had to die because life was impossible for them. Wagner lets us go with Isolde into her dream of ecstasy, but the people who knew her cannot follow her and are merely grief-stricken. The music tells us, at the very end, that the ceaseless longing - the motif with the "Tristan chord" that began the opera - has finally ceased, and the last action we see is Marke blessing the bodies. This gesture is often omitted from performances, just as Isolde is often left standing as the curtain falls. But Wagner did not want the real human situation, the personal and social tragedy of it, completely obliterated for us as it is for Isolde. Her perspective is not Wagner's perspective, and shouldn't be ours.
> 
> The debate over whether the opera is a tragedy is an old one. If the lovers are actually united in death in some supernatural dimension, then we could call it a religious drama and no tragedy. But Wagner didn't take religion and mythology literally. It's impossible to believe that he intended for us to do so.


Seht ihr's nicht?

N.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Barbebleu said:


> I understand it better than I speak it but I can make myself understood when I'm in Germany on holiday. I think it it is forty years of listening to opera and lieder in German that has made me expect what to hear now. *I once said something to someone in Berlin and while they complimented me on my pronunciation they were amused at the archaic Victorian expression that I used. Thanks for that Richard!*


Haha, that's nice. Wagner's German is beautiful, but it is somewhat outdated.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Haha, that's nice. Wagner's German is beautiful, but it is somewhat outdated.


As it was even in Wagner's day.

N.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

T & I appears to have had its fair share of mishaps, as when Carlos Kleiber recorded it for DG. Kleiber's nerves were famously exposed whenever he made music, and, inevitably, in an undertaking as gruelling for him as committing Wagner's Tristan to disc, they frayed - sadly - towards the end of the sessions. In the midst of René Kollo's recording of Tristan's delirium in Act III, the conductor stormed out, and the passage had to be synchronized later, though no trace of that would be apparent to listeners. Presciently, his producer Werner Mayer had let the tape machines run during rehearsals of the preludes in August. Carlos Kleiber never entered a recording studio again...


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

^And I love that recording


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Itullian said:


> ^And I love that recording


Yes it has the most sheerly beautiful Isolde on disc in Price. Really though Kleiber's behaviour was inexcusable. Quite unprofessional. What if everyone had behaved like that during the recording?


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Yes it has the most sheerly beautiful Isolde on disc in Price. Really though Kleiber's behaviour was inexcusable. Quite unprofessional. What if everyone had behaved like that during the recording?


He was quite the eccentric one I've read.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> For Isolde, no. She dies in exaltation. *Her vision is an illusion *- her lover is still lying dead on the ground - but the illusion is glorious to her. But for Tristan? All he got was a minute with her before he died. And for Kurwenal? For Brangaene? For Marke?


Yes there is death all around and tragedy for those whose human life is now over.......but I must refer back to the music from liebestod through end which tells me something else is happening with Isolde outside of the physical world around her, I am not saying this is a religious event but think of more as entering a universal conscious or blissful universal soul state, this is in harmony with what the music tells me as there is no tragic ending there for Isolde......

Also doesn't Wagner make a direct note in the score that Isolde in not dead in the usual sense but "transfigured" at the end, if she were truly dead I would expect a different musical theme developed since there is no redeeming factor only brutal tragic ending for all concerned


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DarkAngel said:


> Yes there is death all around and tragedy for those whose human life is now over.......but I must refer back to the music from liebestod through end which tells me something else is happening with Isolde outside of the physical world around her, I am not saying this is a religious event but think of more as entering a universal conscious or blissful universal soul state, this is in harmony with what the music tells me as there is no tragic ending there for Isolde......
> 
> Also doesn't Wagner make a direct note in the score that Isolde in not dead in the usual sense but "transfigured" at the end, if she were truly dead I would expect a different musical theme developed since there is no redeeming factor only brutal tragic ending for all concerned


I agree that _for Isolde_ the conclusion is lovely. She dies in bliss. But this does not apply to anyone else in the story. If the name of the opera were simply "Isolde," and we had not just gone through what is certainly the most harrowing, agonizing final act in the operatic literature with a man whose reunion with his beloved consists of looking at her for a moment and then dying while she still lives - then perhaps "tragedy" would not be the right word.

I really see little value in quibbling over terminology, but this is not a happy opera! I don't know what a "universal conscious or blissful universal soul state," means, or how that differs from a hallucination or an LSD trip. What Isolde's final experience is, exactly, is left to our imagination. But we know what everyone else's final experience is: they're all either very dead or grieving.

Wagner's libretto says that Isolde sinks "transfigured" onto Tristan's body. It doesn't say outright that she has died. Neither does it say that she hasn't died. It does say that Marke raises his hand and blesses the dead. Surely this does not mean that he blesses Tristan and not Isolde too. It would be an odd take on the legend to kill him off and let her live, when the old story makes much of their dying together. And wouldn't it be cruel to have Tristan die but force Isolde to live on without him after all they've been through? What would she do? Enter a convent? But we don't have to surmise: in correspondence with Liszt, Wagner refers to the "Liebestod" as the music of Isolde's death, and that's the way Liszt refers to it in his piano transcription. So, yes, Isolde truly dies.

As for the music, Wagner's works contain a great variety of music to accompany deaths, depending on the significance of those deaths. The last music we hear in the _Ring_, and the music to which Brunnhilde sings her final words, is the theme with which Sieglinde had glorified Brunnhilde upon receiving the sword Nothung. Brunnhilde's death, like Isolde's, is musically glorious, but that doesn't erase the fact that the _Ring_ plays out as a titanic tragedy. That last melody was wrongly called "Redemption by Love" by some labeler of Leitmotiven early on, and the name stuck; but the tale offers "redemption" only in the sense that the corrupt reign of Wotan is wiped out, and the world may - but only may - do better next cycle. (Of course we know how _that's_ worked out! Alberich, remember, is still at large.)

Wagner's approach to tragedy is not identical to Shakespeare's or to that of the Greeks. The word is a bit flexible. In modern parlance it gets thrown at just about any misfortune or disaster, and so when we use it here we are possibly not using it in quite the same way. It's probably not worth trying to find agreement on just _how_ "tragic" _Tristan_ is. Certainly it has been widely considered a tragedy, dating back to Nietzsche's _The Birth of Tragedy from the Spirit of Music_. Nietzsche, of course, was an intimate friend of Wagner, and his work at that time had Wagner's blessing. I think, if we are considering the various traditional forms of drama, _Tristan_, though highly original, falls best under the category of tragedy. After all, even Lear and Cordelia have a happy reunion before their deaths.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Even without Carlos Kleiber, Tristan has long been a magnet for trouble. the first was when Ludwig Schnorr von Carolsfeld, the first Tristan, died of a heart attack in Munich in 1865, at 29, within weeks of the premiere, leaving the first Isolde — his wife, Malvina — a widow. We also know that Joseph Keilbeth died during a performance of the opera. A=t the Met Opera, New York, in 1959, each of three possible Tristans announced, one after another, that he was too ill to perform. Rudolf Bing, the opera’s legendary general manager, persuaded each to sing one of the three acts. The Tristan for Act I was Ramón Vinay; for Act II, Karl Liebl; and for Act III, Albert da Costa. Each took solo bows. Among the backstage jokes that evening was a report that the maestro, Karl Böhm, had refused to conduct with only one Isolde (Birgit Nilsson). Another suggested that the opera should be renamed “Der Sängerkrieg im Cornwall” (“The Song Contest in Cornwall”). And a stagehand’s voice was supposedly heard from the flies, asking: “You got somebody covering for me up here? I don’t feel so hot.” (From NY Times March 20th 2008)


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Artur Rodzinski was apparently another casualty of _Tristan_. He was warned by his doctor that further conducting activity would put his life at risk. However, he conducted _Tristan_ in 1958 with the Chicago Lyric Opera and soprano Birgit Nilsson. He died shortly afterwards. Stories of _Tristan_'s less lethal but nonetheless disturbing effects on people abound. While composing the third act, Wagner wrote to Mathilde Wesendonck "This Tristan is turning into something terrible! This final Act!!!! - I fear the opera will be banned…only mediocre performances can save me! Perfectly good ones will be bound to drive people mad." I don't know whether we have a documented case of that happening, but there's no doubt that the opera's unprecedented intensity has produced violent reactions, especially early on. Chabrier and Ravel both burst into tears while listening to the prelude; young composer Guillaume Lekeu fainted and had to be carried out of the theater. Berlioz, while reviewing the opera positively, privately admitted to being revolted by the music, Clara Schumann called it the most disgusting thing she had ever heard in her entire life, and many people felt that the music was immoral - not just the story, mind you, but the music itself. It seems to me that all these people - those who survived the _Tristan_ experience and those who did not - got the point of it very clearly!


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I wonder why it affected people so severely?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Itullian said:


> I wonder why it affected people so severely?


That, paesan, is Wagner's secret! If ever you learn it, you will spontaneously combust.

Nietzsche said of _Tristan_, "The world is poor for those who have never been sick enough for this voluptuousness of hell."

In light of a statement like that I think his later infatuation with _Carmen_ is perfectly understandable; he needed to come up for some crisp air and sunshine, clack some castanets, and knock back a shot of manzanilla. But no swivel-hipped gypsy could ever really lure him away from his "wilde Irische Maid." He ended up in his own realm of the night, and it was no ecstatic transfiguration. But of course it wasn't Wagner's music that drove him mad.

We presume.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

It certainly affects me severely, often bringing on an attack of dyschezia.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> That, paesan, is Wagner's secret! If ever you learn it, you will spontaneously combust.
> 
> Nietzsche said of _Tristan_, "The world is poor for those who have never been sick enough for this voluptuousness of hell."
> 
> ...


Duck is on a roll, how can we keep him going........:lol:

*I have to ask a silly question, who is your avatar a picture of?*
Almost looks like a young Del Monaco, but I know you are not found of those brash forte tenors of the 1950-60 period, so I suspect it is one of those old guys you have to listen to on those ancient turntables..........


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## Easy Goer (Apr 9, 2015)




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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

DarkAngel said:


> Duck is on a roll, how can we keep him going........:lol:
> 
> *I have to ask a silly question, who is you avatar a picture of?*
> Almost looks like a young Del Monaco, but I know you are not found of those brash forte tenors of the 1950-60 period, so I suspect it is one of those old guys you have to listen to on those ancient turntables..........


I think he said Tito Schipa?


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## Easy Goer (Apr 9, 2015)

The great Tito Schipa.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Easy Goer said:


> The great Tito Schipa.


The poet of tenors. Just as I am the poet of...whatever.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Itullian said:


> I wonder why it affected people so severely?


Felix Mottl suffered a heart attack on 21 June 1911 while conducting his 100th performance of Tristan in Munich. He was taken to a hospital where he died 11 days later on 2 July, but not before marrying his longtime mistress, the soprano Zdenka Fassbender.
Joseph Keibeth also died in Munich in 1968 after collapsing while conducting Wagner's opera Tristan und Isolde in exactly the same place as Felix Mottl was similarly fatally stricken in 1911. 
Of course, before we look at some 'Tristan curse' we must realise other people have died conducting other works! Sinopoli died conducting Aida.


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

_Tristan_ demands total commitment from the performer.

For some, it requires more than they can give, so it takes their life as compensation.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Celloman said:


> _Tristan_ demands total commitment from the performer.
> 
> For some, it requires more than they can give, so it takes their life as compensation.


Why single out Tristan? All opera requires total commitment. Of course, some are more strenuous than others.

As to total commitment, don't forget one of the greatest of all Tristans, Melchior, once went to sleep on stage after his death scene and started to snore. Flagstaff had to kick him to wake him up before her final scene!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

We single out _Tristan_ because "total commitment" means a greater strain on the principals - soprano, tenor, and conductor, who are mainly responsible for its success - than it does with most operas. It's an opera virtually impossible to do justice: you need to own four or five recordings of it in order to hear something close to everything it can say - and that doesn't even address the problems of staging a drama in which nearly all the "action" is psychological, and very little happens onstage. In some ways I think it's harder to cast and produce than the _Ring_.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Heh heh, here's another T&I thread I didn't see before when I was dragging up a lot of T&I threads last week. But here I have good reason to drag it up because I feel as though I might be getting sucked into this T&I addiction thing. Just finished Act 1 of my second DVD and have three CD sets. Think I am definitely going to need another DVD. Stemme is tempting, but then I like Meier so much in the Jerusalem/Meier set that I maybe should get another Meier set and I think there are several or more out there, but I don't want the bloody one. I want to keep watching the DVD but it is 12:40 am and I need to get to bed.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

oops wrong thread


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I am not at all 'addicted' to Tristan but I did find a CD of interest in a charity shop the other day. Apparently Wagner made a concert version of the duet - the best part of Tristan. It appears that in 1862, three years before Tristanand Isolde's première, Wagner hoped that the Schnorrs, his original Tristan and Isolde, would give part of the Love duet in a concert performance.
This never took place, and nothing was known about the musical preparations Wagner made for the event until 1950; even then it seems the material remained unexamined, and certainly unused, until very recently. Omitting the first 15 minutes or so, the duet was to start at 'O sink hernieder' and continue to the end, including in it the interpolations of Brangäne. 
This was recorded by Voigt and Domingo. It is beautifully sung and I must confess it's a pleasure not to have to fade out King Marke's somewhat boring monologue at the end!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Couchie said:


> I have a problem. Admittance is the first step. For over a year now, I have listened to Tristan und Isolde daily. Literally, daily. Never missing. When I wake up, or when I go to sleep, I listen. When I listen to other music, even other Wagner, I am overcome by the uncontrollable desire to switch and listen to Tristan und Isolde. This is not a joke. It is the air I breathe. It is the sole reason for my existence. I thought, like all other music I have listened to, it would "peak" and I'd eventually lose interest. Not so. The more I listen, the more I am enraptured. The more I can learn. The more I desire. I cannot stop it. Everything else: Verdi, Mozart, Beethoven, Stravinsky: flippant crap. I have a problem. Help me.


I went though a several month addiction to Tristan, but now mainly listen to Isolde's Curse when I listen at all. Now my addiction is the Great British Baking Show which I have watched about 6 times straight through.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Now my addiction is the Great British Baking Show which I have watched about 6 times straight through.


Would that have anything to do with Paul Hollywood? I liked it best when it was a BBC show and had Mary Berry on it as well as Hollywood, but it's still very good.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I went though a several month addiction to Tristan, but now mainly listen to Isolde's Curse when I listen at all. Now my addiction is the Great British Baking Show which I have watched about 6 times straight through.


You've gone from the mad passions of _Tristan_, to Isolde calling for death, to drooling over some TV hunk baking scones?

As one old fart to another, I'd say that sounds like a nice, risk-free progression. Wagner himself went from Tannhauser extolling Venus to Parsifal telling Kundry to take a hike. We do tend to come to our senses when we start losing our senses.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> You've gone from the mad passions of _Tristan_, to Isolde calling for death, to drooling over some TV hunk baking scones?
> 
> As one old fart to another, I'd say that sounds like a nice, risk-free progression. Wagner himself went from Tannhauser extolling Venus to Parsifal telling Kundry to take a hike. We do tend to come to our senses when we start losing our senses.


:lol::lol::lol:


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