# Pulling Out Of The Contests



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I love love doing things like these contests, but I am an amateur opera lover who has no foreign language skills and has learned to love opera almost completely in isolation. I just love the sound of great singers singing. I am afraid I don't have the sophistication needed to present intelligent contests for the very learned members of this forum. To continue would be to embarrass myself. I am glad I tried, though. Thanks to the members who participated. John


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Oh staaawp gurl! Your challenges are just fine. Half the people hear only speak English. As long as your observations are intelligent, it doesn't matter how many languages you speak, and I think I speak for most people around here when I say your posts are generally well-received.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Damn right, BalalaikaBoy! I second that.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Honestly, John, I don't quite understand what the reason for your decision is. Do people's reactions fall short of your expectations in some way? Are we too critical? As I read the responses to the singers you've chosen, I see a great deal of worthwhile discussion of singers and singing, and the discussion is at least as interesting in response to what we think are singers' flaws as it is to the excellence we hear. I agree with Callas, who as a student listened closely to all singers in the knowledge that she could learn from the faults of others as much as from their virtues. You've picked major artists who present highly individual vocal personalities - something we don't get enough of these days - as well as some superb performances some of us were certainly not aware of. 

You are too modest. No one is judging you by any standard of expertise. You say you enjoy doing this? Then do it! I for one would miss the conversation, not to mention the opportunity to hear singing I might otherwise miss out on completely. I find the effort of trying to characterize what I hear to be instructive, and great mental exercise of a sort I don't get when there's only myself to talk to.

Well, that was wordy, wasn't it? In sum: we love what you're doing.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Thanks!!! I'm normally not hard on myself, but I was losing confidence I could present a contest that wasn't a waste of time for the members. I'll reconsider. Sorry for the drama. I was starting to obsess which I don't let myself do. Hopefully if I continue I will learn which I did in spades with Bonetan. I may ask for some advice if I am in doubt. Thanks again MAS and B Boy!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Honestly, John, I don't quite understand what the reason for your decision is. Do people's reactions fall short of your expectations in some way? Are we too critical? As I read the responses to the singers you've chosen, I see a great deal of worthwhile discussion of singers and singing, and the discussion is at least as interesting in response to what we think are singers' flaws as it is to the excellence we hear. I agree with Callas, who as a student listened closely to all singers in the knowledge that she could learn from the faults of others as much as from their virtues. You've picked major artists who present highly individual vocal personalities - something we don't get enough of these days - as well as some superb performances some of us were certainly not aware of.
> 
> You are too modest. No one is judging you by any standard of expertise. You say you enjoy doing this? Then do it! I for one would miss the conversation, not to mention the opportunity to hear singing I might otherwise miss out on completely. I find the effort of trying to characterize what I hear to be instructive, and great mental exercise of a sort I don't get when there's only myself to talk to.
> 
> Well, that was wordy, wasn't it? In sum: we love what you're doing.


Thanks for sitting on me!!! Sorry. I was experiencing a rare for me loss of confidence. You are right. Sorry for the drama. You gave me a practical pep talk. Bless you. I was obsessing which I don't like to do.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Okay, next round in a day or so and hopefully this will continue to be fun for you and me!!!!! Thanks for the vote of confidence I was needing. John


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## dave2708 (Sep 28, 2020)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I love love doing things like these contests..... I am afraid I don't have the sophistication needed to present intelligent contests for the very learned members of this forum. To continue would be to embarrass myself.


The opera forums can get very stuffy and you will find the vast majority don't post or are too intimidated to post. They mostly browse in the background.
Sometimes you just like a singer because you just love their voice and that's OK. That's how most opera lovers actually think.
I get that you post a simple contest and person x strolls in having listened to 45 versions of, say, The Four Last Songs and proceeds to tell you how your choice of so and so's diction was bad, had no feeling for the text, covered the voice too much, didn't reach an oscillation of pitch at a satisfactory frequency of the standard 2800 blah blah blah....
99% of folk don't look at that sort of stuff or even knows what the hell it means. She cover's her voice? Huh. What, with a tarpaulin? You get the picture for most listeners.
If I put Jessye Norman's Four last Songs V Elisabeth Schwarzkopf and said I prefer Jessye. I would likely be TOLD Masur's conducting is too slow & meandering and Norman lacks Lizzies word pointing and feel for the text. Is possibly the wrong fach etc etc.
To which is it perfectly fine to say, you know what, I just don't like Schwarzkopf's voice. I love Norman's commanding wall of sound
and if she sounds like she's reading the phonebook rather than the actual text, I don't care. I love her voice!
A supposed sophisticated analysis is fine and just a simple gut reaction is fine as well.
You just have to not feel intimidated when the walking opera encyclopaedia brigade chime in. 
Take what they say in and feel free to reject it completely if you prefer the other and not necessarily have to explain why in a page and a half. Your gut feeling is as legitimate.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

dave2708 said:


> The opera forums can get very stuffy and you will find the jivast majority don't post or are too intimidated to post. They mostly browse in the background.
> Sometimes you just like a singer because you just love their voice and that's OK. That's how most opera lovers actually think.
> I get that you post a simple contest and person x strolls in having listened to 45 versions of, say, The Four Last Songs and proceeds to tell you how your choice of so and so's diction was bad, had no feeling for the text, covered the voice too much, didn't reach an oscillation of pitch at a satisfactory frequency of the standard 2800 blah blah blah....
> 99% of folk don't look at that sort of stuff or even knows what the hell it means. She cover's her voice? Huh. What, with a tarpaulin? You get the picture for most listeners.
> ...


Yup.

****************


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

dave2708 said:


> The opera forums can get very stuffy and you will find the vast majority don't post or are too intimidated to post. They mostly browse in the background.
> Sometimes you just like a singer because you just love their voice and that's OK. That's how most opera lovers actually think.
> I get that you post a simple contest and person x strolls in having listened to 45 versions of, say, The Four Last Songs and proceeds to tell you how your choice of so and so's diction was bad, had no feeling for the text, covered the voice too much, didn't reach an oscillation of pitch at a satisfactory frequency of the standard 2800 blah blah blah....
> 99% of folk don't look at that sort of stuff or even knows what the hell it means. She cover's her voice? Huh. What, with a tarpaulin? You get the picture for most listeners.
> ...


Thank you sir for a well written practical prep talk. I had briefly lost my confidence but this is more than a forum... it is truly an international community!!!!! I'm actually contemplating a contest of the first of the 4 Last Songs including that incredible "wall of sound"


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I do hope nobody has upset you in any way, John. Like Woodduck, I find the exercise of trying to put into words why I find one performance more satisfying than other really good for me. Classical music and especially opera are minority pursuits these days and it is good to be able to discuss my preferences and reactions with others.

I don't think any of the exchanges have become heated and, _pace_ dave2708, I don't think I've ever come across anyone TELLING anyone else what they should think. (Incidentally, dave, I love both Schwarzkopf/Szell _and_ Norman/Masur in the _Vier letzte Lieder_, so I'm not sure what that makes me?).

I say, if you enjoy doing this, just keep doing it. Plenty of us also enjoy contributing.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Now listen up Seattle! If you leave I shall be forced to go with you because I too have the same feeling about this sometimes pedantic website but the difference between us is, I don't give a you know what!! I also belong to a feisty opera website which can get rather daunting but I stay because I find many to be worthy of my enduring the food fights among them.
I enjoy reading and learning from those more knowledgeable than I. 
And then I also think there are a few (very few) who love listening to themselves talk and don't really impart as much as they like to think they do.
Just sift the wheat from the chaff and do your thing. 
I find you a particular delight, down-to-earth, charming and honest. You go guy!


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

What they all said!:lol: I don’t always pitch in to the contests but I tend to listen to all the samples. I’ve discovered some very fine singers with whom I wasn’t previously very well acquainted.

Btw, enough beating yourself up. If required, that’s our job!


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Sorry for the drama. I was starting to obsess which I don't let myself do.


So . . . obsessing is a BAD thing?


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

I do hope my critique in the last Gheorghiu vs Marton hasn't added to your frustration. You should know that even if the performances aren't my cup of tea, I still highly enjoy reading all the comments and most of those are of great educational quality. Some recordings I wasn't familiar with. All these polls spark interesting discussions and many thanks to John for stepping up to continue offering us these little puzzles and pieces!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Azol said:


> I do hope my critique in the last Gheorghiu vs Marton hasn't added to your frustration. You should know that even if the performances aren't my cup of tea, I still highly enjoy reading all the comments and most of those are of great educational quality. Some recordings I wasn't familiar with. All these polls spark interesting discussions and many thanks to John for stepping up to continue offering us these little puzzles and pieces!


Thanks for your encouragement! I briefly lost my way. It is not my usual style I must say all you guys have given me the confidence needed to proceed and see what conversations will be stirred up. Take the gloves off and proceed! It is hard to follow in Bonetan"s shoes sometimes;-)


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Well, I took a long break from listening to opera and classical music in general, so I haven't been on TC much to see what's been going on with these singer threads. But honestly, I don't think you need to be an expert or know the ins and outs of singing to participate in these comparisons or set up the threads. There are technical aspects to consider, but so much of comparing singers comes down to your own subjective reaction to their singing.

And if you're wondering which notable singers to include, I think a quick look at some of the popular recordings and seeing who sang particular roles on them would suffice. Even if the polls only had really obscure performers or unexpected comparisons, that's not a big deal really. You can find lots of hidden gems that way. So I don't think you need you worry. Just have fun with it.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Okay, next round in a day or so and hopefully this will continue to be fun for you and me!!!!! Thanks for the vote of confidence I was needing. John


Hooray!

N.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

If you truly were stupid or uncultured, I wouldn't be speaking to you often, much less enthusiastically. That is, in fact, what I do with most people. If I listen to you (which I do), it means you have something worthwhile to say.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> If you truly were stupid or uncultured, I wouldn't be speaking to you often, much less enthusiastically. That is, in fact, what I do with most people. If I listen to you (which I do), it means you have something worthwhile to say.


Can you feel that brotherly hug in SC?


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

One other thing I forgot to mention: when you talk about opera, you sound like a normal, unpretentious-yet-insightful person who just....genuinely likes opera, rather than coming off like "trained wine taster" commentary from people regurgitating an orthodoxy they've been trained to notice (hell, I'm sure I come across like this at times. I know I talk about technique and various categorization and technical terms, so I'm sure I sound more pretentious than you do lmao).


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> One other thing I forgot to mention: when you talk about opera, you sound like a normal, unpretentious-yet-insightful person who just....genuinely likes opera, rather than coming off like "trained wine taster" commentary from people regurgitating an orthodoxy they've been trained to notice (hell, I'm sure I come across like this at times. I know I talk about technique and various categorization and technical terms, so I'm sure I sound more pretentious than you do lmao).


Does anyone here presently sound as if they're regurgitating orthodoxies? I think we're a pretty thoughtful bunch of yahoos.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> *Does anyone here presently sound as if they're regurgitating orthodoxies? *I think we're a pretty thoughtful bunch of yahoos.


tbh...not really, it's probably why I stick around. In fact, I was contemplating going back and editing that in, but I decided it wasn't worth it. Hopefully people won't assume an antagonistic undercurrent.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> tbh...not really, it's probably why I stick around. In fact, I was contemplating going back and editing that in, but I decided it wasn't worth it. Hopefully people won't assume an antagonistic undercurrent.


Nah. You're just thinking aloud. That's dangerous, you know.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> One other thing I forgot to mention: when you talk about opera, you sound like a normal, unpretentious-yet-insightful person who just....genuinely likes opera, rather than coming off like "trained wine taster" commentary from people regurgitating an orthodoxy they've been trained to notice (hell, I'm sure I come across like this at times. I know I talk about technique and various categorization and technical terms, so I'm sure I sound more pretentious than you do lmao).


I just read this and I really appreciate what you said. I guess this helps when I talk about opera to my Toastmaster/ Youtube audience who are hopefully learning how to appreciate this art form that they aren't very familiar with. BTW, I have a very handsome, extreme sport, straight computer science doctoral student nerd who spends time loading up my car for my courier job daily. Since it takes a while I have started playing music with my bluetooth speakers for him while he works. Mostly pop . He was totally unfamiliar with opera and surprisingly he really liked Callas, Sutherland, Ponselle, Flagstad and yesterday I played three things by Jessye Norman and she really blew him away more than any other music I've played for him. He was really moved. There is an untapped audience for opera, it is just most people haven't been exposed in today's pigeon holed way of enjoying only one type of music.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

I just got here and now you're going home???!!!


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

ScottK said:


> I just got here


Hi. Welcome to the forum. Get yourself a new avatar, something like this maybe:








Also, Merry Christmas, btw.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

ScottK said:


> I just got here and now you're going home???!!!


Welcome. They talked me out of it.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

hammeredklavier said:


> Hi. Welcome to the forum. Get yourself a new avatar, something like this maybe:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Alright I will! Going to have to enlist my sons help, but when it happens you'll be the reason. You all are a great christmas present, you're a fun bunch and I'm enjoying finding my way around and listening! Merry Christmas and thanks for the welcome!. ...........and when I push this next button I'll find out if I've discovered how to include your remark in my post.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Welcome. They talked me out of it.


And a good thing it is! I'll tell you how I got here....never been on a blog......I was googling opera singer names for articles and reviews and up pops TENOR TOURNAMENT Bergonzi vs Gigli ( two top favorites of mine) and here I am! I'm kind of amazed I havent seen something from here before this but I'm thrilled to be here now. And I've barely scratched the surface of your tournaments. No....the consensus is clear and I concur Thanks for getting me here and for your friendly way! Merry Christmas! Scott


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