# You are on the selection committee. What would you do?????



## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

The following scenario is the true story of a situation a selection committee found itself in many decades ago: Hopelessly deadlocked over three candidates. My question for the group is what *musical* solution would you have used to break the deadlock? Here is the setup:

A selection committee was formed to choose the next assistant conductor of a major symphony orchestra somewhere in the United States. Since their present conductor was getting on in age, it was assumed they were picking his successor. They received well over a hundred applications for the job that met the minimum requirements. The first cut moved that number to 20, the second cut to 7 and finally the committee agreed that three candidates were head and shoulders above the others.

All three held Doctors degrees in music from major music-oriented universities.
All three were virtuosos on the piano.
All three had extensive experience with conducting both choirs and orchestras.

The three candidates were all flown in for interviews.

Each was given an interview that amounted to what we know as an oral exam for a Doctors degree in music on the subject of conducting. Each passed with 100%.

Each took a written test on music history and theory with questions so hard even Ken Jennings wouldn't attempt them. Each passed with 100%.

Each had to perform a major work on the piano. Each played brilliantly.

Each was asked to conduct a major symphonic work more than 20 minutes long. Each conducted brilliantly.

The committee met for a round of voting and found themselves deadlocked. So they brought the candidates in again for another personal performance and conducting of another symphonic work. Each performed flawlessly.

The committee met again. Once again they were hopelessly deadlocked.

So the question is...what would you have done from a *musical standpoint* to break the deadlock????

After we have some fun with this I'll reveal what was actually done.

I would also like to ask one person in this forum (he knows who he is) who knows this story to refrain from shouting out the answer...at least not right away.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Was their input from orchestra members?? From audience members...."all performed flawlessly" sounds like a rather overly broad generalization...surely there were some noticeable differences...
I've been involved with several conductor sesrches, as a committee member, as an orchestra musician.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Choose the one with the most positive personality and best inter-personal skills (think Dudamel).


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Bring them in for another performance with the orchestra, but this time arrange with some key players to mess up badly, and see how the conductor deals with it.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Have them submit their proposal for the next season's concerts: *What music would they like to play? 
*
But if anyone thinks that musical qualifications alone determine who should get the job, you are sadly mistaken. Those elusive people skills are really important and frankly more important than musical considerations. Can they raise money? Do they appear attractive on TV and in print? Can they secure recording and performance gigs? Can they bring in big-name soloists? How good are they in the sack? (In our current #MeToo era this is quite thorny, but unfortunately all too real.) Also, how many times has a hapless Assistant Conductor ever been promoted to Music Director? Not many, and in my experience whenever the board took the easy way out and promoted the assistant it was not a happy time.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Ability to deliver in a range of repertoire and with some regularity seems a lot more important than doctorates or an ability to impress in a verbal interview, although I suppose the charisma to attract an audience might help. 

The views of the present conductor, the orchestra and the audience all seem of some importance but track record is surely what matters. A conductor who has regularly performed brilliantly has presumably found a way to work with his/her orchestras well. 

There may be questions about which conductor can introduce the best new repertoire - perhaps the music that there is a strong case for the orchestra being very capable in (I suppose for a US orchestra that may be about American music or some neglected area of it). 

I guess also ideas around the orchestra as a communal resource would be very welcome.

I suppose, given recent experiences, an orchestra would do well to ensure that the candidates can recognise sexually exploitative behaviour and avoid it themselves.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Remember, this is to "_choose the next assistant conductor_" so they aren't going to have much of a "track record".


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

Enthusiast said:


> Ability to deliver in a range of repertoire and with some regularity seems a lot more important than doctorates or an ability to impress in a verbal interview, although I suppose the charisma to attract an audience might help.
> 
> The views of the present conductor, the orchestra and the audience all seem of some importance but track record is surely what matters. A conductor who has regularly performed brilliantly has presumably found a way to work with his/her orchestras well.
> 
> ...


Think..70 years ago......


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^ If you mean my last sentence then fine - that's why I referred to recent experience - but for the rest I can see no reason why they couldn't have done it my way ... although they may have had to go by reputation rather than jetting around hearing the candidates in their current positions.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Becca said:


> Remember, this is to "_choose the next assistant conductor_" so they aren't going to have much of a "track record".


A leading candidate for assistant conductor of a major orchestra, one who is expected to succeed the current incumbent when he passes, would I think have a track record? Certainly, the young Simon Rattle had quite a reputation before he went to Birmingham (he was made assistant conductor there in 1974) - but I had heard good things about him more than five years before that and I have never had anything to do with the professional or amateur music worlds.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

What are his/her career goals? Are they going to hotfoot it out of there as soon as a more major orchestra comes calling?


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Flip two violins in the air. Have each of the three pick from possible landings: both strings-side up, both strings-side down, one string-side up and one string-side down. Whoever predicts correctly gets the job. The other two go home. (Have the two losers split the cost of replacing the tossed violins. In fact, if presented with this "cost" prior to tossing the violins, perhaps one or two will drop out. If only one drops out, you need flip only one violin. If all three drop out one could offer that the winner will pay for the violins. If all three _still_ drop out -- well … I suspect that's a new puzzle to solve.)


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

Let the whole orchestra vote if the selection committee can’t decide


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Ask the orchestra.


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

Orchestra input was assured through representation on the selection committee.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Pat Fairlea said:


> Ask the orchestra.


They do, but sometimes it doesn't matter. The Cleveland Orchestra mostly didn't want Lorin Maazel - he got the gig anyway. Someimes the orchestra #1 vote getter has demands of salary, working conditions, time off etc, that the orchestra isn't aware of, bu the board is.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Room2201974 said:


> Orchestra input was assured through representation on the selection committee.


The orchestra musicians should each be given evaluation sheets....the musicians opinions may vary widely....each one of the regular contract musicians should be polled.


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

Room2201974 said:


> Orchestra input was assured through representation on the selection committee.


Yes, but not enough to choose a winner apparently, so go to full voting for the whole orchestra
Seems the obvious answer to me


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Have them come to TC and see who can best dis other people's tastes and who can best defend their own. The true measure of talent.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

The only thing that matters with the choice of a conductor is the chemistry with the orchestra in a real concert. All the other criteria (Piano playing skills, musicology degree) are of much less or no importance. If the orchestra wants to do the best they can for a conductor, this will be the best for the audience and this will be the one you need to hire. There will never be three equals when you use these criteria. If the board appoints a conductor the orchestra does not like (apparently like Maazel in Cleveland, who BTW never made a significant recording to my taste), it is a waste.

Candidates for the Concertgebouw orchestra (and likely with many other orchestras) audition from behind a curtain. This seems impossible for a conductor, but it would be a good approach. 

I think things start to go wrong if the reputation or fame of the conductor is more important than the chemistry with the orchestra . But as with most selection committee's for any leading job, they don't dare to take a risk or trust their own judgment. In the business world 'no one ever got fired for hiring McKinsey', but the unknown talent will in most cases be the better fit and be more affordable as well. Nothing is as sad as a (well known) conductor who stands before an orchestra and nothing happens.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

The trouble with orchestral involvement in the decision is that they will choose safely and might not choose the ones who they might develop real chemistry with. The orchestra should be involved but only in an advisory way - not with a veto.


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

Well, this thread has gone in a different direction than I thought it would. That's ok, there really are no wrong answers.

The real answer as I bolded in the OP was a more *musical* one. One more musical test. But after all three had passed with flying colors in all the other tests, how could you tease out who was had the most musical mind and abilities????


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Have them play Mahler's Adagietto from the fifth. The quickest, while still judged great, gets the job.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

The one who plays a piece in the way that the panel members like is chosen and the one who plays it in a shocking new way is put on a blacklist?


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Enthusiast said:


> The trouble with orchestral involvement in the decision is that they will choose safely and might not choose the ones who they might develop real chemistry with. The orchestra should be involved but only in an advisory way - not with a veto.


Part of the selection process is that the candidate will conduct the orchestra in a concert series program. If there is a positive chemistry to occur, this will bring it forth, or not.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Enthusiast said:


> The trouble with orchestral involvement in the decision is that they will choose safely and might not choose the ones who they might develop real chemistry with. The orchestra should be involved but only in an advisory way - not with a veto.


That was certainly not true with the City of Birmingham Symphony! Simon Rattle, Sakari Oramo, Andris Nelsons, Mirga G-T - all relatively unknowns when they were chosen. I think that Rattle was the only choice where the full orchestra did not have a major input in the process.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

Nereffid said:


> Bring them in for another performance with the orchestra, but this time arrange with some key players to mess up badly, and see how the conductor deals with it.


So you would have someone mess up on purpose in front of a paying audience?


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

As a veteran of selection committees (mostly hires) I can tell you that there are a couple of ideas that guide them. 

First, no selection committee wants to give up the right to select. In the case of having the orchestra vote, let's say things go south with the new assistant conductor. A board member comes up to a selection committee member and says, "What happened?" And the selection committee member says, "We couldn't make a decision so we abdicated our responsibility to popular vote." Wow wouldn't the optics look bad in that? In all my years serving on selection committess, the workers never got to choose their boss...for obvious reasons. Input yes, veto power never!

Second, because things can go south, selection committees want some sort of objective method to hang their hats on....yes, a cover your a$$! Hence the battery of oral and written exams. If at any time in those exams, a finalist would have missed just one question....well then, there wouldn't have been a tie. They would have been out.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

^^What a depressing indictment of the mindset and the system in general.

Regarding the earlier comment about a 'musical' test ... there is *nothing* more musical than to solicit the opinions of the musicians who will have to work with the conductor.


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

Becca said:


> ^^What a depressing indictment of the mindset and the system in general.
> 
> Regarding the earlier comment about a 'musical' test ... there is *nothing* more musical than to solicit the opinions of the musicians who will have to work with the conductor.


Input given through orchestra member on the committee. No restrictions on orchestra members voicing opinions to him.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Of course, the Board of Directors has the final say,and the selection committee works under the umbrella of the BoD.
Orchestra input is very important, and so is audience input....but there are other factors to weigh in as well...fund-raising, community involvement, Publicity, programming, etc. etc, etc...the selection committee will make its recommendation, then the Board will accept/ not accept it.
I don't think that keyboard expertise, musicological degrees are too relevant to the process.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Room2201974 said:


> Input given through orchestra member on the committee. No restrictions on orchestra members voicing opinions to him.


I'm sure that you can see the flaws in that argument.


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

I think there is a bigger flaw in the argument that we could leave it to popular vote. No matter how objective you would like to think an orchestra member could possible be, no one ever is. Popular vote is always subjective, even unconciously. I voted for Mr X because I "like" him. Call me crazy but if it's my rear end on the line in a selection committee (and it has been many times) I'll take an objective method anyday. I can defend that. I can't defend "like."

Methinks you'll hate the eventual answer.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Room2201974 said:


> I think there is a bigger flaw in the argument that we could leave it to popular vote.  No matter how objective you would like to think an orchestra member could possible be, no one ever is. Popular vote is always subjective, even unconciously. I voted for Mr X because I "like" him. Call me crazy but if it's my rear end on the line in a selection committee (and it has been many times) I'll take an objective method anyday. I can defend that. I can't defend "like."
> 
> Methinks you'll hate the eventual answer.


Tell that to the Berlin Philharmonic and London Symphony orchestras.


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

Room2201974 said:


> I think there is a bigger flaw in the argument that we could leave it to popular vote. No matter how objective you would like to think an orchestra member could possible be, no one ever is. Popular vote is always subjective, even unconciously. I voted for Mr X because I "like" him. Call me crazy but if it's my rear end on the line in a selection committee (and it has been many times) I'll take an objective method anyday. I can defend that. I can't defend "like."
> 
> Methinks you'll hate the eventual answer.


I believe this system is called democracy and yes there's a good chance we might not like the result but we use it for far more important decisions


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Room2201974 said:


> Input given through orchestra member on the committee. No restrictions on orchestra members voicing opinions to him.


That is not sufficient....the orchestra musicians should be polled, thru individual questionnaire....theirs is not the final word, of course, but the input from musicians is crucial, and needs to be fully expressed...audience feedback is important also. Again, the BoD has the ultimate say, but they need to weigh in many factors.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

I'd give them a simple theme and tell them to compose a fugue or set of variations.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I'd approach each of them privately, hint that one of the other candidates has given me a bribe, and ask if he (or she) would like to attempt a more generous contribution....


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

SO, WHAT's the ANSWER??


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

DaveM said:


> Choose the one with the most positive personality and best inter-personal skills (think Dudamel).





mbhaub said:


> Have them submit their proposal for the next season's concerts: *What music would they like to play?
> *
> But if anyone thinks that musical qualifications alone determine who should get the job, you are sadly mistaken. Those elusive people skills are really important and frankly more important than musical considerations. Can they raise money? Do they appear attractive on TV and in print? Can they secure recording and performance gigs? Can they bring in big-name soloists? How good are they in the sack? (In our current #MeToo era this is quite thorny, but unfortunately all too real.) Also, how many times has a hapless Assistant Conductor ever been promoted to Music Director? Not many, and in my experience whenever the board took the easy way out and promoted the assistant it was not a happy time.


These two answers resonate well.

But neither answers the the question of what sort of _*musical test*_ you would use.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Ultimately , the most important factor in choosing music directors or assistant conductors for any given orchestra are the members of the orchestra . A conductor may be glamorous, telegenic , have an impressive resume and all that, but the musicians can tell almost instantly at a rehearsal if a new conductor to them has what it takes . It's impossible to fool them . 
Conductors must know what they are doing at a rehearsal . They must know the score of any work they are conducting thoroughly , have to ability to convey what they want at rehearsal, must have the requisite knowledge of the various instruments of the orchestra , be able to convey their ideas at a rehearsal clearly and without wasting time with excessive verbiage etc .
Beyond this basic technical competence , it's all a matter of chemistry . And this chemistry, or lack of it between conductors and orchestras is a mysterious thing . 
No amount of slick publicity can get a conductor a position with an orchestra . If the talent is lacking, no orchestra would accept a conductor . The search committee must always take the orchestra into consideration .


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

But it seems to happen quite often that an orchestra gets a conductor who many of them don't like so much. And generally they just get on with it.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Enthusiast said:


> But it seems to happen quite often that an orchestra gets a conductor who many of them don't like so much. And generally they just get on with it.


Right - the Board of Directors hires the music director - he/she works for them...not vice versa...and the conductor does not work for the musicians [except in certain specific cases]


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Room2201974 said:


> After we have some fun with this I'll reveal what was actually done.


OK, what was actually done??


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