# The Problems of the Classical Music Industry



## Guest (Jan 3, 2016)

1. The name "classical."
Impressions it gives: Outdated, irrelevant, inaccessible, boring.

2. The people.
a) The performers.
Usually socially retarded and extremely awkward.
b) The gatekeepers.
99% male, white, old. Run concert halls and agencies on the assumption any real change would be bad.
c) Record labels.
Small: well-meaning, naive, no business acumen.
Large: survive financially on back catalogue and attempts at crossover projects.
d) Critics. 
Embittered, failed musicians, would-be academics.

How true does this ring with you?

(from Instrumental, by James Rhodes)


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

I do not care for the term "socially retarded". I do not care for it one bit.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

I don't admire the author for taking potshots at individuals within an industry that is embattled for obvious sociological/economic reasons much more than personal ones.


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2016)

Cosmos said:


> I do not care for the term "socially retarded". I do not care for it one bit.


Perhaps nor do I, but those are his words and he emphatically puts himself in that category.


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2016)

Blancrocher said:


> I don't admire the author for taking potshots at individuals within an industry that is embattled for obvious sociological/economic reasons much more than personal ones.


Which individuals had you in mind? Perhaps any problems could be discussed in a non-personalised manner.


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## Johann Sebastian Bach (Dec 18, 2015)

Is it a polemic?
Is James taking out his very understandable anger on an easy target?
Is he embittered by anything in the music business?

It's clear that he represents a widespread view about the impressions which the general public have of classical music. But not to consider the issue more deeply is a grave mistake. We sit on the periphery of the world of music because the giant that is commercialism occupies the centre. Mr Moneybags decides who/what the world should like and has zillions of dollars to ensure it happens so that his Moneybags get heavier. The Emperor's new clothes story was never better illustrated than by some of the turgid rubbish which achieves popularity.

Many performers I've worked with are as he describes, although I wouldn't use the pejorative term "retarded". But if you spend six hours a day of your teenage years learning to play an instrument, that's what tends to happen.

Gate keepers? His comments are an absurd generalisation - but they may reflect a percentage of reality.

Record labels? I absolutely agree with him.

Critics? Sounds like he's been on the end of someone's poison pen, as I have. You get over it, eventually, but it really stings when someone with less ability/experience/knowledge writes a negative review.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

My assumption as far as live performance is concerned, is that most people that like to go out want to cut loose a bit. Sitting quietly in a concert hall, or chamber venue listening to classical music is akin to sitting in church. Not very exciting for a Saturday night out, unless you're over age 70. And most of the people that show up at the classical concerts I attend are old folks that don't boogie anymore!

I don't know about the sales figures for recordings, but somebody must be buying this stuff. There are so many small classical labels with big catalogs, so that's a good thing.

And classical radio? I'm glad my town has a station, but it's much too conservative. These stations are hugely guilty for ignoring huge chunks of music that if programmed, would make the listening experience much more interesting and satisfying.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

This is a series of generalisations which contain some truth but does not apply across the board. e.g. to portray critics as 'Embittered, failed musicians, would-be academics' is probably not fair to at least 10% of them!


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2016)

Thanks for the posts. To be clear, I'm not concerned with Rhodes per se, but with opinions on the opinions he expresses (him being "on the inside.")


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## Iean (Nov 17, 2015)

Some problems concerning classical music are affecting popular music as well :

1. The name "pop" :
Impressions it gives: disposable, fluffy, unintelligent

2. The people.
a) The performers.
Usually egocentric social whores and their million of wannabes
b) The gatekeepers.
Greedy producers who cannot differentiate real talent and marketability
c) Record labels.
Small: too idealistic, no business acumen
Large: victims of piracy and the rise of streaming services
d) Critics. 
Jealous singing contest rejects, pretentious music snobs who believe that the Beatles is not a pop band, old people who thinks that all singers should have the vocal pipes of Streisand and Sinatra:angel:


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2016)

@lean. Tis true and would make a good thread.

The "classical" problem seems more acute though? - in terms of the aging/elderley demographic?


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

the poor bloke has had some awful experiences if this review is correct

http://www.theguardian.com/books/20...ness-medication-and-music-james-rhodes-review


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2016)

Headphone Hermit said:


> the poor bloke has had some awful experiences if this review is correct
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/books/20...ness-medication-and-music-james-rhodes-review


I'm nearly at the end of the book. Some parts I had to skip.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

As an Insider, he obviously knows more than me, and I shouldn't comment on his views at all - but oh well, I *will*... 

He is exaggerating for effect, to be challenging, and funny. We could all produce a similar caricature of our own field of expertise or profession.

1. The name 'Classical Music' is as good as any other. 'Art Music' makes it sound intellectually snobbish; 'Serious Music' makes it sound a drag, and is anyway a dated term. A mild improvement would be made by dropping two letters to 'Classic Music', because Classics are 'good things'. But I say keep the name and change the connotations.

2. a) The Performers - probably no worse than other famous people. They have to work hard on their own for hours and hours so can't interact much. I don't know any, so I can't say - but the Baroque Performers that I've come across through my Fiddle Teacher have appeared to be kind, witty, sociable & well-adjusted people - people like Rachel Podger & Crispian Steele-Perkins

b) The Gatekeepers - may be true by & large, but surely young blood must be coming in - more women, and from other backgrounds?

3. Record Labels - I don't know, sorry.

4. Critics
I am laughing sardonically. Artists always say that about critics, but only because they hate anyone criticising them. Unless a critic has some background in music, maybe starting off wanting to perform, they can't have the requisite knowledge & understanding. But to be a critic requires other gifts - the ability to write and connect with a readership - that the musician and composer may not have. As a blanket statement, I don't think it's true to say they're 'embittered, failed musicians, would-be academics'. *Some* may be.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Also, many critics are/were successful composers (Berlioz, Schumann, Tchaikovksy, Virgil Thomson, etc).


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2016)

OK, I'll put this in the pot:

There is a solo piano recital of works by Beethoven, Bach and Chopin.

What would you expect to be the age bracket of the majority of the audience?

Mostly over 50s?

Mostly 20 somethings?

You can't say, because the determining details have not been given.

The age range cannot be guessed from the programme.

The age range comes from: the style of advertising, the method of marketing, the type of venue, how the music is presented, the lighting, the clothes of the performer, the ticket prices, etc.

Not the music.


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## Iean (Nov 17, 2015)

dogen said:


> @lean. Tis true and would make a good thread.
> 
> The "classical" problem seems more acute though? - in terms of the a*ging/elderley demographic?*


From my experience, yes. A lot of young Filipinos (between 15 and 30) who attend classical concerts do so because they have to accompany their parents (we have very close family ties). And since, for unknown reasons, classical CDs are pricier here as compared to pop CDs, those who actually buy them are generally middle-aged men and women in the middle age demographics ( me not included :angel.


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2016)

Iean said:


> From my experience, yes. A lot of young Filipinos (between 15 and 30) who attend classical concerts do so because they have to accompany their parents (we have very close family ties). And since, for unknown reasons, classical CDs are pricier here as compared to pop CDs, those who actually buy them are generally middle-aged men and women in the middle age demographics ( me not included :angel.


When I go to a rock gig, I'm an old fart.
When I go to a classical concert, I'm the only one not on a ventilator.


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

However, when I go to concerts or recitals where programmes are mixed or entirely 20th / 21st century music, it is noticable that the audience mix is rather different from those concerts where the usual suspects' music is programmed exclusively. The Royal Liverpool PO's concert series in Preston have extremely conservative programmes and the audience is elderly - and numbers have been thin when I've been there (is this just an association or does the programme 'cause' the audience?). Which leads me to wonder if a chance is being missed to engage younger people in a more relevant programme. 

As I have commented before, my son came to Classical Music via avant-garde rock and jazz into 21st century experimental CM - and only then did he start to work his way backwards towards Boulez, Stravinsky, the 2nd Viennese school etc. He has very little interest in the music of the 19th century.


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2016)

TurnaboutVox said:


> However, when I go to concerts or recitals where programmes are mixed or entirely 20th / 21st century music, it is noticable that the audience mix is rather different from those concerts where the usual suspects' music is programmed exclusively. The Royal Liverpool PO's concert series in Preston have extremely conservative programmes and the audience is elderly - and numbers have been thin when I've been there (is this just an association or does the programme 'cause' the audience?). Which leads me to wonder if a chance is being missed to engage younger people in a more relevant programme.
> 
> As I have commented before, my son came to Classical Music via avant-garde rock and jazz into 21st century experimental CM - and only then did he start to work his way backwards towards Boulez, Stravinsky, the 2nd Viennese school etc. He has very little interest in the music of the 19th century.


I think that's a very good point, a chance is certainly being missed. Lots of chances are being missed by keeping everything the same.


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

Having said that, I notice from the Bridgewater Hall programme for Spring 2016 that the one sold-out-already "classical" concert is Ludovico Einaudi "The Elements Tour". I'm not sure what to make of this. I have listened to enough Einaudi to know that I don't think of it as 'classical music' at all (though I quite enjoyed it, actually). So does the way to greater mass market popularity lie in a shift to this sort of 'crossover' music? That certainly seems to be what the money men at the large record companies think. 

Obviously, given my known interests, I'm playing devil's advocate here.


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2016)

Crossover and money men attract more expletives from Rhodes than just about any other topic!


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

TurnaboutVox said:


> I have listened to enough Einaudi to know that I don't think of it as 'classical music' at all (though I quite enjoyed it, actually).


Not to turn this into a shameful confession thread, but same here.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

TurnaboutVox said:


> However, when I go to concerts or recitals where programmes are mixed or entirely 20th / 21st century music, it is noticable that the audience mix is rather different from those concerts where the usual suspects' music is programmed exclusively. The Royal Liverpool PO's concert series in Preston have extremely conservative programmes and the audience is elderly - and numbers have been thin when I've been there (is this just an association or does the programme 'cause' the audience?). Which leads me to wonder if a chance is being missed to engage younger people in a more relevant programme.
> 
> As I have commented before, my son came to Classical Music via avant-garde rock and jazz into 21st century experimental CM - and only then did he start to work his way backwards towards Boulez, Stravinsky, the 2nd Viennese school etc. He has very little interest in the music of the 19th century.


The main hall in my city has fairly conservative programming that attracts older people but does have a few concerts that it puts under the "Contemporary" heading in the webpage. I went to such a concert with Ligeti's Études and Musica Ricercata and was surprised to see that most of the audience members were in their 20s and 30s, with only a few people past their 60s.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

dogen said:


> I think that's a very good point, a chance is certainly being missed. Lots of chances are being missed by keeping everything the same.


This and turnaboutvox posts I love. The status quo is not really working!


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## Iean (Nov 17, 2015)

Blancrocher said:


> Not to turn this into a shameful confession thread, but same here.


I love Einaudi! Even if all his CDs are very pricey here (all imports), i think they're worth my hard-earned money:angel:


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

Chronochromie said:


> The main hall in my city has fairly conservative programming that attracts older people but does have a few concerts that it puts under the "Contemporary" heading in the webpage.


That's sort of what I wanted to say. Also, the concert theatre at the university attracts a much younger crowd than the big concert hall downtown. A lot of people never think of the many cultural possibilities the university (actually, now two here) offers. There's a significant price difference, too.

As for the original question, I can't add more to what has already been said, but I think the name classical is fine. It says what it is and if that's not what you like, then the connotations will be negative. For the rest of us, the connotations are positive.


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## kartikeys (Mar 16, 2013)

the advertising industry
lack of culture (connection to your homeland, roots)
free speech (open criticism of the above two)


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