# Three Types of Masterpieces



## Jake1963 (Apr 24, 2018)

I have just realized that some works that I love can be put into one of three distinct types. What do you all think? Maybe this thread can tease out some music new to some of us, or can show us music we know, but in a new light.
MASTERPIECE Type ONE: (Nearly) last works that sum-up or that are a final creative outpouring.
Examples: Verdi, Falstaff; Haydn, Creation; Strauss, Last Four Songs; Franz Schmidt, The Book with Seven Seals; Bach, Art of the Fugue
MASTERPIECE Type TWO: Conventional wisdom states this composer only had one great work. Examples: Holst, Planets; Orff, Carmina Burana; Gorecki , Third Symphony
MASTERPIECE Type THREE: Works that composer thinks is their best or favorite, at least at one time. Examples: Satie, Messe des Pauvres; Bartok, Cantata Profana; Martinu, Julietta (the opera, the 6th Symphony); Holst, Hymn of Jesus
- - Which works do you like that fit one of these? Which works are exceptions to these categories that you recommend?


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

I suppose Mozart's pf quintet K452 which at the time Mozart enthused to his Father - this is the best thing I have ever written.

So this would fit cat 3


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## Jake1963 (Apr 24, 2018)

When a great composer really cares for a composition, it makes it nice to listen more intently, to go deep and try to see any part of what they loved. Thanks, and I'll put that on the playlist.


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## Guest (Jun 17, 2018)

I don't really understand this categorisation system or how it helps me to understand the works of some of my faovurite composers. However, for someone like Boulez I can see a piece like _Répons_ being an answer to a problem posed in early attempts to combine electronics with large instrumental forces. I guess in some way it's a culmination of interests he had with orchestration and technology. I don't know how these categorisations could work with other composers whose music I enjoy, like Neuwirth, Lachenmann, Adámek, Mundry, Spahlinger, Dhomont, Pintscher, Natasha Barrett etc etc etc.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Jake1963 said:


> When a great composer really cares for a composition, it makes it nice to listen more intently, to go deep and try to see any part of what they loved. Thanks, and I'll put that on the playlist.


On Type 3: 
I imagine most composers have strong reactions to their works. Shostakovich, when asked which of his works he loves the most, likened himself to a parent who could not choose between his children. I have also read of other composers making a similar comparison. Some composers, though, withdrew (or even destroyed) works they were unhappy with and I have also read of composers being surprised at the popularity of one of their works or even feeling like Vaughan Williams did towards his 4th symphony (something like _I'm not sure that I like it but it is what I meant_). Also, many contemporary composers seem to be always revising their works - I'm not sure if that is because they love them so much or that they are never happy with them.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Jake1963 said:


> I have just realized that some works that I love can be put into one of three distinct types. What do you all think? Maybe this thread can tease out some music new to some of us, or can show us music we know, but in a new light.
> MASTERPIECE Type ONE: (Nearly) last works that sum-up or that are a final creative outpouring.
> Examples: Verdi, Falstaff; Haydn, Creation; Strauss, Last Four Songs; Franz Schmidt, The Book with Seven Seals; Bach, Art of the Fugue


Despite your examples, I'm not sure I believe in Type 1. I don't think works composed in old age (or even the end of a composer's life) "sum up" their output. They might indeed use much that their composers have learned but they also lack what they had when they were younger. Can the 4 Last Songs sum up the out-to-shock Strauss of Salome? Can Falstaff, a comedy, sum up Verdi's achievement with tragedies?


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