# Rossini: Do you like either of these operas



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

These two Rossini operas are somewhat related with the Turk traveling to Italy in one and the Italian traveling to a Turkish land in the other. Other similarities are present, but the stories are quite different too. Do you like both, or only one. Please cast your vote.

Il turco in Italia (The Turk in Italy) 

L'italiana in Algeri (The Italian Girl in Algiers)


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## Rossiniano (Jul 28, 2017)

Well obviously both, but _L'Italiana_ is the gem when comparing the two. I find it to be close to perfection and a more interesting opera than even _Barbiere_. Yet _Turco_ has its moments and especially with its Pirandello-like libretto.

What bothers me about _Turco_ is that Geronio's entrance aria with the chorus of zingarelle was not composed by Rossini and neither was the entire finale to the second act. Both are decent enough and superficially sound like Rossini, but not to the trained ear. When Rossini participated in revivals he usually cut the former and drastically reduced the latter. In compensation he composed a new and quite splendid aria for Geronio for insertion into the second act that can be heard on the Chailly Decca recording for one of those revivals. Incidentally, the aria del sorbetto for the Albazar was also composed by the ghost writer who is thought to be Vincenzo Lavigna who was employed by La Scala. .

Interestingly during the original rehearsals he was so enthralled with the voice of tenor Giovanni David that he composed an aria for the second act that was not originally part of the libretto, but never bothered to redo the finale or that first act aria. Perhaps they were too far into the rehearsal stage to suddenly have to get the singers and chorus to learn new parts. Now Rossini used collaborators in other operas but never to compose a finale. I have always wondered why such was the case with _Turco_ and think that it would be an interesting research project for a thesis. Did he become ill, loose interest in things, was he lazy, was he partying and ran out of time, or was it due to his bipolar nature which became more pronounced as be aged???

I could write more about both pieces, but at the risk of turning this post into a thesis of sorts! Therefore, I'll give things a rest other than to say that it's a pity that the entire score of _Turco_ was not known in the 1950's when the piece was revived for Callas. One can only imagine what she would have done with Fiorilla's splendid second act aria if it were available at the time!!


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

I actually prefer "L'Italiana", but I do like them both.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

I like them both; _L'italiana_ is the better of the two, and one of Rossini's best: brilliant, high-spirited. This is the one with the Act I finale where the characters are so confused that they end up making noises like animals, bells, and anvils.






_Turco_ is clever, full of interesting ideas - there's a playwright who needs to write an opera libretto, so sets the drama in motion to see what happens, and Act II has an elaborate sequence where various characters "double" and the cuckolded husband loses his identity. Not Rossini's best music, though.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Italian in Algiers is actually my favorite Rossini comic opera, even above the more popular Barber and Centerentola 
I agree with the others that it is superior to Il Turco but that's no slight. I'm actually listening to Il Turco now, and I'm enjoying it very much


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Love L'Italiana.
Don't care for Turco which I feel is vastly inferior and lacks inspiration.


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## Rossiniano (Jul 28, 2017)

Incidentally few weeks ago I came across a DVD of _Turco_ on the Bongiovanni label at Berkshire Record Outlet. It was bargain priced and features a Neapolitan adaptation of the piece where the spurious first act aria for Geronio is not performed. The Act Two finale is performed complete. The tenor is given Lindoro's "Langui per una bella" from _Italiana_ as an entrance aria with the libretto altered. Plus Fiorella gets an alternate entrance aria that Rossini used for other revivals. The recits are replaced with spoken dialog with some in Neapolitan dialect. The plot is slightly altered as well so that Geronio is Fiorilla's guardian and not her husband. A couple of extra gypsies appear as well. It is staged at the classic theatre in Vicenza. Quite entertaining and as I said available at a bargain price to boot! It is not known if Rossini was directly involved in the adaptation, but it works and given the spoken dialog it is easier to follow the action if you understand basic Italian.


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## Annied (Apr 27, 2017)

I freely admit that I struggle with Rossini. I enjoy all of his overtures that I've heard, but I can't cope with anything else. When he writes for the singers, he manages continually to jam so many notes into a single bar that the music loses all its flow for me. (If there'd been a Guinness Book of Records in his day, I'm sure he'd have been in it.)

On the other hand, in the very early days of my opera going I unsuspectingly booked for L'Italiana before I'd heard any Rossini. (It came as a very nasty surprise when I borrowed a copy from the local library so that I could familiarise myself with it before I went.) The evening was saved because it was the first time I'd come across Frank Lopardo and I did enjoy his voice very much even if I wasn't very struck on what he was actually singing.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

Annied said:


> I freely admit that I struggle with Rossini. I enjoy all of his overtures that I've heard, but I can't cope with anything else. When he writes for the singers, he manages continually to jam so many notes into a single bar that the music loses all its flow for me. (If there'd been a Guinness Book of Records in his day, I'm sure he'd have been in it.)
> 
> On the other hand, in the very early days of my opera going I unsuspectingly booked for L'Italiana before I'd heard any Rossini. (It came as a very nasty surprise when I borrowed a copy from the local library so that I could familiarise myself with it before I went.) The evening was saved because it was the first time I'd come across Frank Lopardo and I did enjoy his voice very much even if I wasn't very struck on what he was actually singing.


How do you cope with Handel?


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Sonata said:


> Italian in Algiers is actually my favorite Rossini comic opera, even above the more popular Barber and Centerentola
> I agree with the others that it is superior to Il Turco but that's no slight. I'm actually listening to Il Turco now, and I'm enjoying it very much


Barber was at the top of my list but I sort of burned myself out on it after amassing 15 CD sets and 13 DVDs. 

I don't see much need for more L'italiana sets. However, I see Horne is in one, which is highly desireable to have, but so far I am only finding it with horrible recording quality.

La Cenerentola never rose that high with me for very long, though I have been reexploring it lately and have picked up a few more DVDs and CD sets besides the one with von Stade (DVD) and Berganza (CD) that I began with.

I got Il Turco on CD and DVD, both with Bartoli and am not impressed. In fact, I started the Il Turco CD yesterday and quit partway in from boredom, switching to L'Italiana instead. I like the story in L'Italiana much better too.

I suspect Il turco will not get any votes since anyone who likes that one will also like L'Italiana and so vote "both."


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## Rossiniano (Jul 28, 2017)

Florestan said:


> I got Il Turco on CD and DVD, both with Bartoli and am not impressed. In fact, I started the Il Turco CD yesterday and quit partway in from boredom, switching to L'Italiana instead. I like the story in L'Italiana much better too.
> 
> I suspect Il turco will not get any votes since anyone who likes that one will also like L'Italiana and so vote "both."


I was not impressed with _Turco_ when I first encountered it. Of course way back then the Callas version was the only show in town. I was troubled not only by Callas, about whom I knew nothing at the time, but it seemed inferior to both _Barbiere_ and _Italiana. _ (I had not yet heard _Cenerentola_ and I was not overwhelmed by that either on first hearing.) Well over time I came to appreciate it a bit more and eventually even came to appreciate the soprano with the strange sounding voice who so troubled me. The rest as they say is history.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

After spinning them both yesterday I decided I like them both, very small preference towards L'italiana in Algeri , just by a fingernail.


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## Annied (Apr 27, 2017)

SimonTemplar said:


> How do you cope with Handel?


I don't I'm afraid.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Love them both................


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## Rossiniano (Jul 28, 2017)

What makes things work with _Turco_ even when the non Rossini aria for Geronio and the Act Two Finale are both included complete concerns the fact that the two pieces are written in a someowhat older and more conservative style and that's the givevaway. In fact Stendhal who had no clue that the first act aria was not by Rossini referenced it as being in the style of Cimarosa. When Fiorilla returns to her older husband at the end of the opera it almost seems to make sense that the the music should reflect that fact and given the stylistic difference it does. Plus both compositions are not unattractive.

However, some recordings and productions insist on including the little aria del sorbetto for the tenor Albazar that is not exactly a masterpiece. In fact I find it quite dowdy and amateurish and especially regarding an inept modulation that occurs midway through the piece! Plus when included it is back to back with the tenor aria for Narciso and the contrast in styles is quite disconcerting and reveals Rossini's superiority.

Incidentally Vincenzo Lavigna, who might have written these compositions, gave lessons in composition to Verdi later in life. Just an interesting aside!


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Annied said:


> I don't I'm afraid.


Neither do I....


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

I voted "L'italiana" and I do believe it's the best comic opera of Rossini.
Turco however offers the delightful basso buffo duet of Act II, so I wouldn't want to be without this opera as well.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Nobody prefers the Turko in Italy?


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

^^^^^^
More worrying I don't like either of them..................4-18.18%
Who cares?...................3-13.64%


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Yeah I like both.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

SixFootScowl said:


> Nobody prefers the Turko in Italy?


I do!

I love the first act especially of L'Italiana and the rest of the opera is good, but I find act two is just a continuation of the joke in act one (my isn't she feisty!) There could be more interest included by fleshing out the subplots and there is too much focus on Isabella/Mustafa'. At least in Turco there is the poet character that adds a lot of interest. The gags in the libretto are better in Turco IMO. (The part where a chorus of Fiorillas turn up is a masterstroke!)

On the other hand L'Italiana works better as a more unified whole, it's a classic farce. Turco is a more experimental work and more fragmented. That's just from the libretti, but the same could be said of the music due to Rossini leaving some key passages to another hand.

It might be that I have a preference for Turco because I have seen it a lot (there were very good productions at La Scala and Covent Garden) and got to know it via the Callas and Chailly recordings.

N.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

What are the recommended stereo recordings for these two?


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

starthrower said:


> What are the recommended stereo recordings for these two?


These are my two favourite among the stereo sets:

















These are both complete and are lively performances in excellent sound. There are a few other Turcos (a couple more recent than the Chailly) including one with Ramey and Caballe. However, the more recent recordings have less starry casts and the Chailly is the most spirited of the classic recordings.

There are a host of Italianas and it may well just be a case of you choosing your favourite mezzo. I have picked the above for its playful sense of fun and characterful cast. This one is good too and is probably considered the top choice:









There are others with Horne and Ramey (disappointing and not great when it comes to the conducting), Berganza and Vallentini-Terrani. These are the better two though IMO.

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

There are two mono recordings that shouldn't be overlooked either. These have not just been considered the best Turco and Italiana in the past, but two of the best Rossini recordings out of all his operas. Despite some cuts (especially in Turco), they are classics.

















N.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The Conte said:


> There are two mono recordings that shouldn't be overlooked either. These have not just been considered the best Turco and Italiana in the past, but two of the best Rossini recordings out of all his operas. Despite some cuts (especially in Turco), they are classics.
> 
> View attachment 161041
> 
> ...


I'd also go mono for *Le Comte Ory*. The old Gui recording, which was based on performances at Glyendbourne, has such a wonderful sense of fun that isn't even approached in the more modern recordings.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

I like both since I like everything Rossini wrote.

I have these - and bolded my favorite

L'Italiana: *Scuitti/Giulini;* Horne/La Scala; Bergonza/Fiorentino; Pederzini/Rome
Il Turco: Bartoli/Chially; Callas/Gardino; *Callas/Gavazzeni*; Bruscantini/Sciutti


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Thanks, guys! I'll give some of these a listen.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

My choice for Italiana is the Cobos with Larmore.
The others cut out too much good music to me.

Turco isnt as good imo and i dont own a recording.
i would have probably bought the Chailly, but i am allergic to Bartoli.
Thats the one i'd buy though if ever the spirit moves me.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Itullian said:


> Turco isnt as good imo and i dont own a recording.
> i would have probably bought the Chailly, but i am allergic to Bartoli.
> Thats the one i'd buy though if ever the spirit moves me.


The Callas *Il Turco in Italia*, like most Rossini comedies recorded in the 1950s, is admittedly cut, but it has a verve and sparkle seemingly beyond the reach of most modern recordings.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

SanAntone said:


> I like both since I like everything Rossini wrote.
> 
> I have these - and bolded my favorite
> 
> ...


Do you have a top secret undiscovered Callas recording the rest of us don't know about?

N.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

The Conte said:


> Do you have a top secret undiscovered Callas recording the rest of us don't know about?
> 
> N.


No, I listed the same one twice because I have it on my hard drive twice with different covers. My mistake.


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