# Which are the five greatest works by Ludwig van Beethoven in your opinion?



## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

The works are ordered more or less chronologically. Define "greatest" as you wish. If you choose _Other(s)_, please tell us here in the comments section which work(s) you had in mind.

You may change your vote later.

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Top ten most voted works that belong to Ludwig van Beethoven's five greatest according to the poll at the moment (in case of tie, later work gets priority in the ordering):

1. Symphony No. 3 "Eroica", Op. 55 (38 votes)
2. Symphony No. 9 "Choral", Op. 125 (35 votes)
3. Symphony No. 5, Op. 67 (26 votes)
4. Symphony No. 6 "Pastoral", Op. 68 (21 votes)
5. Missa Solemnis, Op. 123 (18 votes)
6. Piano Concerto No. 5 "Emperor", Op. 73 (17 votes)
7. String Quartet No. 14, Op. 131 (16 votes)
8. String Quartet No. 15, Op. 132 (14 votes)
9. Piano Sonata No. 32, Op. 111 (13 votes)
10. Symphony No. 7, Op. 92 (13 votes)

Total votes at the moment: 65.

Last update: 09/08/2022.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Impossible just five but if I have to do the impossible: symphonies 3, 5, 7 and 9 and SQ Op. 130.


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## Highwayman (Jul 16, 2018)

I voted for _Eroica_, _Hammerklavier_, Op. 110, Op. 131 and _other_. That _other_ stands for _Waldstein_.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

I chose the late string quartets (excepting Op. 135) and the Ninth Symphony. Unfortunately, I could not vote for Hammerklavier.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

While I wouldn't have voted for them if they were on the list, I think Beethoven's middle period string quartets are as great as his middle period symphonies. One of them should have been included in the poll, IMO.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

This poll was painful! I had to leave so much out.

I ended up choosing 3 symphonies, 1 string quartet and one piano sonata. Without those 5 works the world of symphonies, string quartets and piano sonatas would not be the same. Our musical world would not be as rich as it is. Only Beethoven could have composed those seminal works.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

My five:
Piano Sonata no. 29
Diabelli Variations
Missa Solemnis
Syms. 6 and 9


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Defining 'greatest' as 'my favourites' as always.

Three clearly stand out for me: the sixth symphony, string quartet 14 and the violin concerto. In addition, I picked string quartet 15 and the not listed third piano concerto.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Symphonies 3, 5, & 9
String Quartet & Grosse Fuge
Piano Sonate in C# minor.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Wrong mode. If this was similar to the Bach poll it should be more like "quartets op.18", "quartets op. 59", "late quartets", "piano variations", "piano concertos"...


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I voted for some of my _current_ favourites but others weren't on the list so had to tick 'other' (Raz 3 & Serioso quartets).


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## bagpipers (Jun 29, 2013)

1.String quartet no.15 in A minor opus 132
2.String quartet no 14 in C# minor opus 131
3.Symphony no 5 in C minor 
4.Symphony no 7 in A major 
5.String quartet in F major opus 135


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Like Art Rock, I would list favorites, not greatest — except it would be pointless. There are too many I like and I could easily pick "other" five times on a given day because the middle period sonatas and string quartets are woefully underrepresented in the list.


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## bagpipers (Jun 29, 2013)

EdwardBast said:


> Like Art Rock, I would list favorites, not greatest — except it would be pointless. There are too many I like and I could easily pick "other" five times on a given day because the middle period sonatas and string quartets are woefully underrepresented in the list.


I like middle period sonata's too like D major pastoral or the Ghost Trio and the fourth symphony ,I love the 4th


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

SQ Op 130
Symphony 3
Symphony 5
Symphony 9
Piano Sonata Appassionata op 57


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

For me, "greatest"=* favorite*

already indicated>>>Symphony 9, Symphony 5, Piano Concerto no.4
others>>>Triple Concerto and Piano Concerto no.1


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Impossible just five


Yes.

My choice:

Symph No. 3 "Eroica" (opening the door to 19th century's symphony)
Piano Sonata No. 29 B-flat op. 106 "Hammerklavier" (boosting piano technique 30 years forward; the "intrinsic" weight shift is higher yet)
Piano Sonata No. 32 C minor op. 111 (A border experience in music. Lightyears away from entertaining.)
Missa Solemnis op. 123 (Just listen to Masses written by others in the first half of the 18th century to see a large gap ... Haydn, Chérubini, Schubert, von Weber, ...)
String Quartet op. 130 B-flat major (with the fugue; the fugue is just the 19th century's most 20th century's music.)


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

pianozach said:


> Symphonies 3, 5, & 9
> String Quartet & Grosse Fuge
> Piano Sonate in C# minor.


pathétique or 111?


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

justekaia said:


> pathétique or 111?


The Piano Sonata No. 14 in C♯ minor "Quasi una fantasia", op. 27, No. 2 [the Moonlight Sonata]

Brilliant. So brilliant that EVERYONE knows the first movement, the gentle moonlight drizzle. The first two movements are false flag operations leading to the stormy 3rd movement.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Philidor said:


> Missa Solemnis op. 123 (Just listen to Masses written by others in the first half of the 18th century to see are large gap ... Haydn, Chérubini, Schubert, von Weber, ...)


What do you mean by "just listen to ...", "large gap"? There are "Beethovenian" elements in the Beethoven work that people appreciate and I wholeheartedly respect and understand that. But objectively speaking, he's also simply "different" from the others. Perhaps if you know them yourself so well, you could try identifying-




If you had asked Bruckner, F.J. Aumann would probably have been given as the answer for the greatest composer of Catholic music.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Xisten267 said:


> The works are ordered more or less chronologically. Define "greatest" as you wish.
> 
> You may change your vote later.


Can't do it, unable to limit it to 5.....must exclude some of his greatest works...


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

hammeredklavier said:


> There are "Beethovenian" elements in the Beethoven work


I hope so.


hammeredklavier said:


> There are "Beethovenian" elements in the Beethoven work that people appreciate


I hope so.


hammeredklavier said:


> There are "Beethovenian" elements in the Beethoven work that people appreciate and I wholeheartedly respect and understand that.


That's fine.


hammeredklavier said:


> But objectively speaking, he's also simply "different" from the others.


One thing obvious - he is different. I think the difference is enough. 


hammeredklavier said:


> Perhaps if you know them yourself so well, you could try identifying-


I would never claim to identify some piece of music lasting for some seconds to some composer who passed away more than 200 years ago. 

Your source at YouTube doesn't give a single hint where the examples stem from. Don't wait for "scientific" explainations with such insecure sources.


hammeredklavier said:


> If you had asked Bruckner, F.J. Aumann would probably have been given as the answer for the greatest composer of Catholic music.


Maybe. Afaik, Mozart's Requiem was the most cherished piece in music for Bruckner - by far. 

However, the question was not, which five works from Beethoven were Bruckner's favourites. 

As far as I dived into mass composition in the first half of the 19th century - maybe 15 to 20 masses -, I only can say that I see a big gap in originality between op. 123 and the rest.

Maybe you have the one mass from wonderland that is on eye's level with op. 123? I would highly appreciate such wisdom.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

I'd say *Sonata No. 32 Op. 111* is clearly his greatest. Unlike any other piece it has never been copied by another composer and it goes places no other piece of music by anyone traverses. I often think of it as the single piece of music that in its finale comes closest to transcending the human existence.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

The Grosse Hammerchoraleroica.


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## Georgieva (7 mo ago)

My vote:
1.Symphony №3 "Eroica" Op.55
2. Symphonies №5 & 9


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

Symphony 9
Missa Solemnis
Symphony 5
Symphony 3
Piano Sonata 32


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

larold said:


> I'd say *Sonata No. 32 Op. 111* is clearly his greatest. Unlike any other piece it has never been copied by another composer and it goes places no other piece of music by anyone traverses. I often think of it as the single piece of music that in its finale comes closest to transcending the human existence.


The problem with threads like this, that want us to narrow down "5 greatest" works from a composer that has composed dozens and dozens of great works, is that the challenge isn't in the least bit valuable.

My choices forced me to exclude Beethoven's Symphony No. 6, his one opera, the Requiem, his violin concerto, several piano sonatas, a few string quartets, the Op. 20 Septet, and Missa Solemnis.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

So far it's *Symphonies 3, 9, & 5 *in the lead (in that order), with *Symphony No. 6, String Quartet 14* and *Hammerklavier* tied for a distant 4th


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

larold said:


> I'd say *Sonata No. 32 Op. 111* is clearly his greatest. Unlike any other piece it has never been copied by another composer


Prokofiev said that op. 111 was the role model for his 2nd symphony - first movement "Allegro ben articolato", second movement "Tema con variazioni".


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Philidor said:


> Prokofiev said that op. 111 was the role model for his 2nd symphony - first movement "Allegro ben articolato", second movement "Tema con variazioni".


Do you not have problems with the "Dotted Jazzy Variation"? I cannot really enjoy it and it is a shame because the sonata is otherwise beautiful.


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

Waehnen said:


> I cannot really enjoy it and it is a shame because the sonata is otherwise beautiful.


I guess that the problem is on your side. I think I do not know enough to provide any help ...


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Philidor said:


> I guess that the problem is on your side. I think I do not know enough to provide any help ...


But you know which variation I am talking about? I have not analysed it but it sounds like I - V - I with dotted jazzy arpeggios. I do not enjoy the variation. Do you?


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

Philidor said:


> Prokofiev said that op. 111 was the role model for his 2nd symphony - first movement "Allegro ben articolato", second movement "Tema con variazioni".


And a damn fine symphony it is, maybe partly because Prokofiev was channeling Beethoven's spirit? Though of course the style is vastly different, and Prokofiev wasn't happy with the piece. He planned to revise and simplify it, the way he did with his 4th, and I'm not sure it's a bad thing that he never got to it. It's the complexity (contrary to soviet doctrines) that makes the symphony so fascinating.



Waehnen said:


> Do you not have problems with the "Dotted Jazzy Variation"? I cannot really enjoy it and it is a shame because the sonata is otherwise beautiful.
> (...)
> But you know which variation I am talking about? I have not analysed it but it sounds like I - V - I with dotted jazzy arpeggios. I do not enjoy the variation. Do you?


I can't speak for Phil but god yes, I do. To me, the passage you mean is one of the most mesmerizing in the whole piano literature. The way each subsequent variation adds more rhythmical complexity (using time signatures never seen in any work before), culminating in that extraordinary syncopated "dance"... after which the music takes a completely different path towards an intimate, mystical world - the whole movement is one of western music's greatest creations.
I wonder how you feel about that strange, stylized march, 2nd movement of the op. 101 piano sonata, which seem to be a forerunner of the syncopated variations in op. 111?


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

Waehnen said:


> But you know which variation I am talking about? I have not analysed it but it sounds like I - V - I with dotted jazzy arpeggios. I do not enjoy the variation. Do you?


Yes, I know which variation you are talking about. 

I enjoy it.

Trust in Beethoven. If you don't like it, don't blame him.


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## Machiavel (Apr 12, 2010)

I’m always surprise to see symphony 3 so high almost higher than the ninth.
Does this mean all posters believes Beethoven symphony quality went down after the third and it was not match until the ninth? It does seems so looking at many other posts


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

Machiavel said:


> I’m always surprise to see symphony 3 so high almost higher than the ninth.
> Does this mean all posters believes Beethoven symphony quality went down after the third and it was not match until the ninth? It does seems so looking at many other posts


Me too, I feel like the first 2 movements of the 3rd symphony are indeed the best until the 9th but the last 2 movements aren’t on the same level as many of the last 2 movements of subsequent symphonies, including the 9th of course. So that brings the whole symphony a bit down. I would rate it below the 5th and 6th for that reason. I would rate it about the same as the 7th


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Missa Solemnis
Symphony No. 9
Diabelli Variations
String Quartets, Op. 59
Piano Sonata, Op. 106


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Machiavel said:


> I’m always surprise to see symphony 3 so high almost higher than the ninth.
> Does this mean all posters believes Beethoven symphony quality went down after the third and it was not match until the ninth? It does seems so looking at many other posts


#3 "Eroica" is a great work, revolutionary in a way, a huge step forward...
But symphonies 5, 7, 9 are all really great, so is Leonore Ov #3...
I don't think LvB's symphonic quality went down, but they're not as revolutionary in form or content until #9...


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Sometimes Beethoven is lovely, but overall, I find him too aggressive for my tastes. I prefer the softer and more sensitive sides of classical music.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

But some works I enjoy are Fur Elise, The first movement of the first symphony, The first movement of Moonlight, the first mvt of the 6th to name a few.


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## Machiavel (Apr 12, 2010)

Heck148 said:


> #3 "Eroica" is a great work, revolutionary in a way, a huge step forward...
> But symphonies 5, 7, 9 are all really great, so is Leonore Ov #3...
> I don't think LvB's symphonic quality went down, *but they're not as revolutionary in form or content until #9*...


what do you mean with that. Are the form and content less creative , craftsmanship-lesser. Is it a technical aspect of composition…?


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

RobertJTh said:


> I can't speak for Phil but god yes, I do. To me, the passage you mean is one of the most mesmerizing in the whole piano literature. The way each subsequent variation adds more rhythmical complexity (using time signatures never seen in any work before), culminating in that extraordinary syncopated "dance"... after which the music takes a completely different path towards an intimate, mystical world - the whole movement is one of western music's greatest creations.
> I wonder how you feel about that strange, stylized march, 2nd movement of the op. 101 piano sonata, which seem to be a forerunner of the syncopated variations in op. 111?


Thanks RobertJTh and Phildor! I will do some re-evaluation on this matter. After all, I would love to adore this piano sonata, too. The Op. 101 is one of my few top favourite piano sonatas, even the 2nd Movement which carries wonderful inevitable momentum. At this moment, I find it harmonically, texturally, rhythmically, melodically and polyphonically more interesting than the variation of Op. 111 under discussion here. Of course a movement in a sonata has to stand on it´s own unlike a variation which is just one view on the matter at hand.

(Sometimes the problem truly is me myself and I. For example I do not like the keys Ab and Eb Major for some reason so I always have to try to forget about the key if I plan to enjoy the music. The late op. 110 Ab Major sonata is a victim of me disliking the key. The celebratory Sibelius 5th and the ending of Mahler 2nd are the places where I find the Eb Major key appropriate, not much else. And of course when Cminor brightens up to Eb Major in some Beethoven. With Bruckner for example, at this time I try to forget about the Eb Major key. This is of course stupid and I would love to rid myself of things like this. I have no idea where these preferences of mine come from.)


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

Machiavel said:


> I’m always surprise to see symphony 3 so high almost higher than the ninth.
> Does this mean all posters believes Beethoven symphony quality went down after the third and it was not match until the ninth? It does seems so looking at many other posts





Machiavel said:


> what do you mean with that. Are the form and content less creative , craftsmanship-lesser. Is it a technical aspect of composition…?


I think the question is whether you are looking at the status of each symphony on its own or if you are looking at the evolutionary step.

In mathematics: Are you looking at f(x) or at f'(x)?

I would say that the step from symphs 1 and 2 to the Eroica wasn't repeated (within the symphonies).

Besides, on its own, the Eroica is a great work, even if the last movement may not entirely keep the level. 

If you're asking for a symphony as an entire work, I would opt for 5, 6 and 7. 5 and 6 for their movement-to-movement curve, 7 for its equilibrium between the movements.

Nr. 9 is special ... I think the finale with chorus has its effect, but in terms of symphonic logic, it dooesn't keep the level of the first three movements (which are marvellous).


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Philidor said:


> Besides, on its own, the Eroica is a great work, even if the last movement may not entirely keep the level.
> 
> (...)
> 
> Nr. 9 is special ... I think the finale with chorus has its effect, but in terms of symphonic logic, it dooesn't keep the level of the first three movements (which are marvellous).


I disagree with both assertions - to me, the finale of the _Eroica_ is as great as it's first two movements, and the last movement of the _Choral_ is the non plus ultra of finales of symphonies. Both show Beethoven in his more humanist, dreamer side, a facet of the composer I greatly admire. Maybe the problem some people have with them is that some recordings don't play them well...?


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## bagpipers (Jun 29, 2013)

^^^^
Beethoven also thought the Eroica was his best symphony


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

No. Beethoven thought the Eroica* was the best _until_ he had composed the 9th.

I voted for _three that Beethoven would almost certainly have voted for himself_: Missa solemnis, 9th symphony, sonata op.106.
Then there is some leeway, I voted op.131 but one could as well pick another late quartet. Then there are a few further options, e.g. Eroica, Diabellis, another sonata or quartet, another symphony, maybe the 4th or 5th PC, or the "Archduke" trio.
But I voted for "Fidelio", the piece that was the longest and most laborious of all projects of Beethoven and that is often underappreciated both by typical Beethoven nerds who don't much care for vocal/opera and by many opera lovers because it is a somewhat unconventional "mixed genre" opera (a fate it shares with "The Magic Flute"), and like in some other cases a less sophisticated audience has almost no problems at all loving these pieces, the "problems" mainly seem to exist for eggheads...

* I don't much care for programmatic speculations but I suspect that there is some foundation for something like this in the case of the Eroica (Prometheus myth or Bonaparte or some mix or whatever) that might explain the funeral march and the odd finale 
[what follows the death of the hero? shouldn't the piece end with the funeral? some people think these are "memorial games" like they do it in Homeric myth after the death of Achilles.]


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Machiavel said:


> I’m always surprise to see symphony 3 so high almost higher than the ninth.
> Does this mean all posters believes Beethoven symphony quality went down after the third and it was not match until the ninth? It does seems so looking at many other posts


The Eroica is extraordinarily original and daring and on a huge, unprecedented scale. I also think it is the second best after the 9th. But the following symphonies are all more "unified", maybe one could say they sacrifice some of the daring and scale of the Eroica for a tighter construction and unification. 

In any case, to me it seems that the Eroica was admired but not that influential compared to the 5th, 6th, 9th. The unified "from dark to light" arc of the 5th and the proto "idee fixe"/leitmotiv and "fate" theme was huge for the following century of symphonies, similarly the "moderate programme music" ("more emotion than painting") of the 6th, and for more "romantic classicist" symphonies, even the 4th (Schumann's 1st) and 7th (Schubert's "Great", Mendelsohn's "Italian") etc. were important models.


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## bagpipers (Jun 29, 2013)

Kreisler jr said:


> No. Beethoven thought the Eroica* was the best _until_ he had composed the 9th.


Not sure that's true,do you have a citation of this??


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

Xisten267 said:


> I disagree with both assertions - to me, the finale of the _Eroica_ is as great as it's first two movements, and the last movement of the _Choral_ is the non plus ultra of finales of symphonies.


That's perfectly fine.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Philidor said:


> I would never claim to identify some piece of music lasting for some seconds to some composer who passed away more than 200 years ago. Your source at YouTube doesn't give a single hint where the examples stem from. Don't wait for "scientific" explainations with such insecure sources.


That's the whole point. Those excerpts are each 20 seconds long, -more than enough for people familiar with the works to identify. Some of us seem to have this strange notion that if we don't "appreciate" a work by Bach, Mozart, or Beethoven, we haven't yet "understood" it, (and thus we must keep listening until we do), but with lesser-known composers, we don't have to. Of the works presented in that video of unidentified excerpts, there are ones I have come to view differently after 10 or more listenings. And still I don't pretend to know everything in that composer. Obviously, there's a difference between "knowing something well enough to identify its excerpts", and "not being able to", in terms of insight. In comparing works we're familar with to different degrees, there will inevitably be subjective bias from our point of view.



Philidor said:


> Maybe. Afaik, Mozart's Requiem was the most cherished piece in music for Bruckner - by far.


What's your source for that? Bruckner does seem to allude to Mozart in one of his early works, the requiem (WAB39). But one thing we know for sure, Bruckner didn't arrange, copy, study Mozart's Catholic music as much as Aumann's.



Philidor said:


> Maybe you have the one mass from wonderland that is on eye's level with op. 123? I would highly appreciate such wisdom.


On eye's level in terms of what? The composer of the unidentified excerpts uses chromatic harmony in ways Beethoven doesn't (something to be judged subjectively). And he was active in that field up to 1806.



Philidor said:


> I only can say that I see a big gap in originality between op. 123 and the rest.


Original in what ways? I can point to sections in music of the composer of the unidentified excerpts that must have influenced the Et incarnatus est of Beethoven Op.123 (the loud gesture that starts it and the subsequent harmonization of Gregorian melody), Mozart's requiem, and Schubert's German mass (the whole practice of text setting).

I find that people often use "originality" as a fancy term to simply describe something they like. (At least for them there are various ways to justify the usage by interpreting things subjectively).
I'm not saying Beethoven wasn't original - but, for example, in the context of looking at his work alongside Justin Heinrich Knecht's "Le Portrait Musical de La Nature ou Grande Symphonie" (1783) and Pavel Wranitzky's "Grand Symphony for the Peace with French Republic Op.31" (1797), one can view things somewhat differently.
Also, btw, it's worth questioning how insightful it is to let notions of how innovative or influential a work was in history influence our view of its "greatness". They could be nothing more than just historical "fun facts". Ask ourselves - how many of us judge Schoenberg by the equally fair criteria?


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## Second Trombone (Jan 23, 2020)

Ah, things are starting to turn argumentative, as usually happens as these threads proceed. Nobody is getting any arguments from me. All of the works on the list are great, and more could be added. I voted for personal favorites rather than "the greatest." And I'm not trying to persuade anyone. Greatest seems to me almost meaningless when ranking Beethoven's dozen or two dozen best works. My three are pieces I can hear over and over again without ever getting tired of them. Also, all are works I fell in love with early when starting to listen to classical music. In no particular order:
1. Symphony No. 3, "Eroica"
2. Piano Concerto No 4.
3. Piano Sonata No. 32, Op 111
I read Thomas Mann's Dr. Faustus as a college freshman, which focuses closely on Op. 111. That drew me to it, especially in the Schnabel performance, which is what I had in a set of late sontatas on a Seraphim LP. And I listened to the Eroica over and over, also as a college frosh. Both works astonished me. And I just love Piano Concerto 4.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

hammeredklavier said:


> I'm not saying Beethoven wasn't original - but, for example, in the context of looking at his work alongside Justin Heinrich Knecht's "Le Portrait Musical de La Nature ou Grande Symphonie" (1783) and Pavel Wranitzky's "Grand Symphony for the Peace with French Republic Op.31" (1797), *one can view things somewhat differently.*


I don't think that Beethoven's _Eroica_ and _Pastoral_ symphonies are any less original because they have precedents by minor composers (I wonder if Knecht or Wranitzky would still be remembered today if not due to their connection with the composer of Bonn). And since Mozart seems to be one of your favorite composers, I question you: should his _Le nozze di Figaro_ and _Don Giovanni_ be seem as less progressive works just because Paisiello and Gazzaniga composed operas using the same thematic as them, and before?



hammeredklavier said:


> Also, btw, it's worth questioning how insightful it is to let notions of how innovative or influential a work was in history influence our view of its "greatness". They could be nothing more than just historical "fun facts". Ask ourselves - how many of us judge Schoenberg by the equally fair criteria?


Personally, I think that the degrees of innovation, originality and influence are key aspects (among others) in the appreciation of artistic merit, differentiating the true artist from the amateur. I don't believe that music is just about individual taste, like you and many others in this community seem to do. I prefer Scott Joplin, for example, over Schoenberg (that you cited), any day, any time, but, in my view at least, it's clear that the latter is the most accomplished composer. But let's not turn this into yet another "subjectivist vs objectivist" debate, please. It's not the purpose of this thread, and after so much talk about this topic in the past few months I'm convinced that both sides show valid argumentation. If you view "greatest" as "favorite", you're still welcome to participate of the poll.

From the OP:


Xisten267 said:


> The works are ordered more or less chronologically. *Define "greatest" as you wish.*


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

hammeredklavier said:


> What's your source for that?


Nikolaus Harnoncourt, spoken text in his live recording of Bruckner 5.


hammeredklavier said:


> On eye's level in terms of what?


In your terms.


hammeredklavier said:


> in the context of looking at his work alongside Justin Heinrich Knecht's "Le Portrait Musical de La Nature ou Grande Symphonie" (1783) and Pavel Wranitzky's "Grand Symphony for the Peace with French Republic Op.31" (1797), one can view things somewhat differently.


Of course you can. Feel free.


hammeredklavier said:


> Also, btw, it's worth questioning how insightful it is to let notions of how innovative or influential a work was in history influence our view of its "greatness".


I don't know which assumptions you made of my understanding of music, which is of course always fragmentary, incomplete, temporary ... the same way as your understanding of music.

I appreciate the way of asking "how did the contemporaries think about it" .

Ok, but if we ask that question, it should be clear that Mozart and Beethoven with their symphonies, piano concertos and string quartets just have an underpart as compared as to the dominance of the italian opera in their time.

If we look at music that way, our ranking of "best loved symphonies" and similar turn out to be ranking on a minority.


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## hoodjem (Feb 23, 2019)

Waehnen said:


> This poll was painful! I had to leave so much out.
> 
> I ended up choosing 3 symphonies, 1 string quartet and one piano sonata. Without those 5 works the world of symphonies, string quartets and piano sonatas would not be the same. Our musical world would not be as rich as it is. Only Beethoven could have composed those seminal works.


Yes. With Beethoven there are just so very many masterpieces.

I would add to the list other piano trios, a few of the cello sonatas, several sonatas for violin and piano, piano sonata no. 15, op. 28, and piano sonata no. 21, op. 53.


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## tobias.mostel (6 mo ago)

Impossible demand. 10? Impossible. But I'd like to mention the 8th Symphony. Great piece.


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## bagpipers (Jun 29, 2013)

tobias.mostel said:


> Impossible demand. 10? Impossible. But I'd like to mention the 8th Symphony. Great piece.


The now deceased Emeritus professor of musicology at the University of Massachusetts always said the 8th was Beethoven's best.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Xisten267 said:


> I don't think that Beethoven's _Eroica_ and _Pastoral_ symphonies are any less original because they have precedents by minor composers (I wonder if Knecht or Wranitzky would still be remembered today if not due to their connection with the composer of Bonn). And since Mozart seems to be one of your favorite composers, I question you: should his _Le nozze di Figaro_ and _Don Giovanni_ be seem as less progressive works just because Paisiello and Gazzaniga composed operas using the same thematic as them, and before?


Of course. Salieri's Les Danaïdes, which predates Mozart's Don Giovanni, has a "hellish ending" without anything like the Scena Ultima from the Mozart succeeding it —whether or not it is as "daring" as the Mozart is up to each of us to decide subjectively. (Like Gluck, he makes ample use of recitativo accomapagnato juxtaposed with dramatic choruses). Berlioz would have thought it is. Progressiveness is a rather vague thing, and people use it to suit their own argument (Consider the unfair treatment of modern composers like Schoenberg by some people). Also btw, there's no basis Paisiello was "less progressive" than Mozart objectively. I recently posted excerpts to show his influence on Rossini (which seems more significant than Mozart's, The Marriage of Figaro vs The Barber of Seville). Whether or not they are "minor composers" (and thus less significant than Mozart) is up to each of us to decide subjectively, and I still stand by everything I said in the other thread (Hypocrisy vibe).


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_[I’m always surprise to see symphony 3 so high almost higher than the ninth. Does this mean all posters believes Beethoven symphony quality went down after the third and it was not match until the ninth? It does seems so looking at many other posts.]_

Not at all. Everything he wrote is top notch. The reason Nos. 3 and 9 are selected for special mention is:

*No. 3 *was the first "Romantic" symphony and idealized better than anything written to 1803 what the romantic 19th century would be about. More than 200 years later it is probably still the greatest musical portrait of heroism. The *Ninth symphony *was written during Beethoven's greatest period that also produced the Missa Solemnis, the late piano sonatas and string quartets, and oddly the far less significant Bagatelles.

Since its arrival it has been identified by listeners as something special and has been replicated by composers. Wagner said its opening, just the first downbeats and tremeloes, indicated something great was about to happen. All of Anton Bruckner's symphonies save one begin similarly to Beethoven's Ninth. And this is only the opening! As to the closing both Mahler and Mendelssohn wrote wonderful choral symphonies based on its model -- to mention just two of the best copies. "Inside the Score" on YouTube has a wonderful piece on the Beethoven choral symphony and other programs on his greatest works.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

My first 4 were symphonies 3,5,6,9, (which seem to be common picks) while my 5th was "other," the Double Concerto. I have a soft spot for it.


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## hoodjem (Feb 23, 2019)




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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

Can't restrict it to just 5:

Symphonies 1-9 (if absolutely forced to whittle it down then Symphonies 3-9)
SQs # 7-9 (Razumovsky)
Piano Sonatas 1-32
Sonatas for Cello and Piano 1-5
Piano Concertos Nos. 4 & 5


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

larold said:


> I'd say *Sonata No. 32 Op. 111* is clearly his greatest. Unlike any other piece it has never been copied by another composer and it goes places no other piece of music by anyone traverses. I often think of it as the single piece of music that in its finale comes closest to transcending the human existence.


I agree, though the Archduke Trio Andante (for me) comes close.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

pianozach said:


> The problem with threads like this, that want us to narrow down "5 greatest" works from a composer that has composed dozens and dozens of great works, is that the challenge isn't in the least bit valuable.
> 
> My choices forced me to exclude Beethoven's Symphony No. 6, his one opera, the Requiem, his violin concerto, several piano sonatas, a few string quartets, the Op. 20 Septet, and Missa Solemnis.


I finally caved in and put down 5, but now I feel ashamed and unclean..


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## Yabetz (Sep 6, 2021)

Beethoven's works show such development that you really can't narrow it down to 5. It's a very similar situation with Mahler's entire output and Wagner's last 8 operas. So as someone above said, the symphonies, the piano sonatas, the string quartets, the concertos and the vocal music.


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## Wigmar (8 mo ago)

Xisten267 said:


> The works are ordered more or less chronologically. Define "greatest" as you wish. If you choose _Other(s)_, please tell us here in the comments section which work(s) you had in mind.
> 
> You may change your vote later.
> 
> ...


1. Lied 'Adelaide' op. 46
2. String quartet op. 59:1
3. Piano sonata op. 27:2 'Mondschein' 
4. Piano sonata op. 13 'Pathétique'
5. Violin concerto op. 61


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## Doublestring (Sep 3, 2014)

For me:

Symphony No. 5 in C minor
Symphony No. 7 in A Major
Piano Concerto No. 5 in E-flat Major "Emperor"
String Quartet No. 15 in A minor
Piano Sonata No. 23 in F minor "Appassionata"


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