# Fantasia for Orchestra in C Major



## JamieHoldham

Another composition, a short one because I am actually running out of pages on a particular manuscript I have, just wanted to get a short work completed on it, and this is it.

It's going to be very different from anything else I have written, what I like to call it is pure music, I have no virtuosic intentions or to make it complex, just somewhat simple but absoulutely beautiful, similar to Wagner but shorter in scope.

Inspired by one of the first people to get me into composing, and dedicated to Jeremy Soule, the award winning composer for games such as Skyrim and Guild Wars 2, not that anyone here has heard of them.

A example of one of his works;





Once I finish composing it I will write down a clean and neat copyist version to send to the man himself as a gift.

First page:


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## Pugg

That's a very nice gesture from you, little things means a lot Jamie, don't forget that .


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## Vasks

Strings are always at the bottom of a score, not top


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## JamieHoldham

Vasks said:


> Strings are always at the bottom of a score, not top


Oh no, I placed them in the wrong position, I must be a terrible composer.


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## JamieHoldham

Going to upload attempt no.2 tommorow, got pages 1 & 2 down, admitedly it isn't as much of a "simple" piece anymore.


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## MalariaMan

Vasks said:


> Strings are always at the bottom of a score, not top


fight the establishment! :lol:


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## Pugg

MalariaMan said:


> fight the establishment! :lol:


Constructive post.


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## MalariaMan

Pugg said:


> Constructive post.


Ouch... this thread oozes judgement.

JamieHoldham, I'm always amazed at how copyists understand what composers have written down! I guess it's like a nurse or a pharmacist understanding what medical doctors call 'their hand-writing'.


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## JamieHoldham

MalariaMan said:


> Ouch... this thread oozes judgement.
> 
> JamieHoldham, I'm always amazed at how copyists understand what composers have written down! I guess it's like a nurse or a pharmacist understanding what medical doctors call 'their hand-writing'.


If by this statement you mean how copyists cant understand english and where I write down all the instruments at there place on the staff at the start of the composition, then they shouldn't even have the job, or if you meant just my handwritting - fair enough, sometimes it isn't very clear, but atleast its not as bad as Beethovens


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## MalariaMan

JamieHoldham said:


> If by this statement you mean how copyists cant understand english and where I write down all the instruments at there place on the staff at the start of the composition, then they shouldn't even have the job, or if you meant just my handwritting - fair enough, sometimes it isn't very clear, but atleast its not as bad as Beethovens
> 
> View attachment 88815


haha I confess, it was the second option


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## JamieHoldham

Attempt No.2, pages 1-3, more complicated, with some tributes to Schubert in the piece.


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## EdwardBast

Vasks said:


> Strings are always at the bottom of a score, not top





JamieHoldham said:


> Oh no, I placed them in the wrong position, I must be a terrible composer.


Vasks has given you the only constructive criticism you can expect, given that what you have posted is three photographs of nearly illegible scrawl. If you don't know how to arrange the instruments in an orchestral score, people will likely assume you have failed to acquire the most basic knowledge expected of a composer. And if you don't want constructive criticism, as your response clearly suggests, why are you posting these pictures of music no can read or hear?


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## JamieHoldham

EdwardBast said:


> Vasks has given you the only constructive criticism you can expect, given that what you have posted is three photographs of nearly illegible scrawl. If you don't know how to arrange the instruments in an orchestral score, people will likely assume you have failed to acquire the most basic knowledge expected of a composer. And if you don't want constructive criticism, as your response clearly suggests, why are you posting these pictures of music no can read or hear?


Thats not constructive criticism, it's just a insult. Do I really care where to place the instruments? It doesnt matter at all, and yes, I already knew where to place the strings, but I simply do not care, it's not like my work is ever going to get published and I need to order the instruments in there correct places in a notation programme, not even the great composers, Beethoven, Bach and dozens of others placed the instruments in the "correct" position, atleast not on there manuscripts back in the day.


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## Torkelburger

JamieHoldham said:


> Thats not constructive criticism, it's just a insult. Do I really care where to place the instruments? It doesnt matter at all, and yes, I already knew where to place the strings, but I simply do not care, it's not like my work is ever going to get published and I need to order the instruments in there correct places in a notation programme, not even the great composers, Beethoven, Bach and dozens of others placed the instruments in the "correct" position, atleast not on there manuscripts back in the day.


I don't think Vasks meant it to be insulting at all. I think he truly tried to tell you something he thought you didn't know. He is one of the most respectful (and respected) posters on the board. The truth is he emphasized something very important for a composer. It doesn't matter that you don't want to get published. Score preparation is just as important as the notes themselves. While you may not care at all about it, we must impress upon you the reality that others care about it a lot. So you should to. Not just those who are judging the music casually like us, but more importantly, a potential musician who may play your work, a conductor who may conduct it, judge of a contest, publisher (if you wanted to someday), etc.

Illegible, sloppy, and incorrectly laid out, and other preparation-error scores are the first ones thrown out when judging a contest, without the actual notes even being looked at. In addition to not wanting to go blind and old deciphering a sloppy score, the assumption is that if the score preparation has errors, then _the music itself also contains errors_. Fair or not, that is the assumption made. A professional conductor will make a similar assumption. But the stakes are much higher since they cannot afford to rehearse a score with multiple errors and waste time on the podium (it's even worse when dealing with a union). Musicians will feel like their time is going to be wasted on cleaning up a sloppy, error-filled score they can barely get through due to sloppiness and have to fix due to errors. The conductor will also have difficulty conducting the piece if the instruments are out of order on the score. For example, if you have the trumpets at the top of the brass and the horns at the bottom, then you might accidentally cue the horns when the trumpets are supposed to play.

And it does little good to bring up manuscripts from 250 years ago as an excuse to write sloppy scores today. Standards, norms, customs, education, and technology have changed, advanced, and evolved over those 250 years so to assume those same composers today would be just as sloppy is a fallacy.


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## JamieHoldham

Torkelburger said:


> I don't think Vasks meant it to be insulting at all. I think he truly tried to tell you something he thought you didn't know. He is one of the most respectful (and respected) posters on the board. The truth is he emphasized something very important for a composer. It doesn't matter that you don't want to get published. Score preparation is just as important as the notes themselves. While you may not care at all about it, we must impress upon you the reality that others care about it a lot. So you should to. Not just those who are judging the music casually like us, but more importantly, a potential musician who may play your work, a conductor who may conduct it, judge of a contest, publisher (if you wanted to someday), etc.
> 
> Illegible, sloppy, and incorrectly laid out, and other preparation-error scores are the first ones thrown out when judging a contest, without the actual notes even being looked at. In addition to not wanting to go blind and old deciphering a sloppy score, the assumption is that if the score preparation has errors, then _the music itself also contains errors_. Fair or not, that is the assumption made. A professional conductor will make a similar assumption. But the stakes are much higher since they cannot afford to rehearse a score with multiple errors and waste time on the podium (it's even worse when dealing with a union). Musicians will feel like their time is going to be wasted on cleaning up a sloppy, error-filled score they can barely get through due to sloppiness and have to fix due to errors. The conductor will also have difficulty conducting the piece if the instruments are out of order on the score. For example, if you have the trumpets at the top of the brass and the horns at the bottom, then you might accidentally cue the horns when the trumpets are supposed to play.
> 
> And it does little good to bring up manuscripts from 250 years ago as an excuse to write sloppy scores today. Standards, norms, customs, education, and technology have changed, advanced, and evolved over those 250 years so to assume those same composers today would be just as sloppy is a fallacy.


Just saying the original comment by Vasks wasnt insulting, it was Edward that made it seem like I was a idiot which annoyed me.

Sorry for not having the clarification earlier.

And all that you typed up about people seeing my original scores and assuming things that most likely arent true, that's never going to happen. Ever.

If I want a professional to see my work, I will put the entire thing in a notation programme in the correct order as standard, no point organising the original manuscript which no one apart from unprofessionals on this website will see.


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## Torkelburger

JamieHoldham said:


> Just saying the original comment by Vasks wasnt insulting, it was Edward that made it seem like I was a idiot which annoyed me.
> 
> Sorry for not having the clarification earlier.
> 
> And all that you typed up about people seeing my original scores and assuming things that most likely arent true, that's never going to happen. Ever.
> 
> If I want a professional to see my work, I will put the entire thing in a notation programme in the correct order as standard, no point organising the original manuscript which no one apart from unprofessionals on this website will see.


No point? Don't you want any feedback? If you don't post legible scores on this website, how will you get any feedback?


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## JamieHoldham

Torkelburger said:


> No point? Don't you want any feedback? If you don't post legible scores on this website, how will you get any feedback?


Honestly unless I specifically ask for it I don't particularly want it but dont deny anyone that does give me it, and my scores aren't as illegible as you think they are honestly, although if someone has bad eye sight then I can understand.


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## Torkelburger

That's what I thought. I can't for the life of me see how you think for example the cello line at the top of page 2 is legible to everyone unless they have bad eyes. Strange, that. Maybe your scores aren't as legible as _you_ think.


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## JamieHoldham

Torkelburger said:


> That's what I thought. I can't for the life of me see how you think for example the cello line at the top of page 2 is legible to everyone unless they have bad eyes. Strange, that. Maybe your scores aren't as legible as _you_ think.


If you cant read it thats your problem, sorry.


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## Torkelburger

Judging from the feedback you get, it doesn't seem I'm the only one.


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## JamieHoldham

Torkelburger said:


> Judging from the feedback you get, it doesn't seem I'm the only one.


Doesn't mean what you said is true regardless.


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## Torkelburger

JamieHoldham said:


> Doesn't mean what you said is true regardless.


Doesn't mean what you said is true either.


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## JamieHoldham

Torkelburger said:


> Doesn't mean what you said is true either.


Done arguing about a irrelevant point now?


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## Torkelburger

In any case, I’ll offer some constructive criticism with what I can make out. The french horn (I think that’s what it is) part is in the stratosphere the whole time. The first page opening bars is really going to be strained to play piano. And is this a Score in C or a Transposed Score? It’s anybody’s guess since proper score preparation was not followed and no indication at the top of the score was made. The f horn line is unplayable if this is a Score in C as is the rest of the page, and the whole score is basically impossible (is some of this supposed to be have been written in bass clef or something)?

The viola part on page 2 first measure if I’m reading it correctly (hard to make out the clef), is playing a low c-flat. The viola cannot play that note. It cannot play below the C. Cello may possibly go out of range in same bar. Cannot tell for sure.


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## Torkelburger

JamieHoldham said:


> Done arguing about a irrelevant point now?


I don't know are you?


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## JamieHoldham

Torkelburger said:


> I don't know are you?


I am indeed, just commenting to add to my post count at this point.


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## JamieHoldham

Torkelburger said:


> In any case, I'll offer some constructive criticism with what I can make out. The french horn (I think that's what it is) part is in the stratosphere the whole time. The first page opening bars is really going to be strained to play piano. And is this a Score in C or a Transposed Score? It's anybody's guess since proper score preparation was not followed and no indication at the top of the score was made. The f horn line is unplayable if this is a Score in C as is the rest of the page, and the whole score is basically impossible (is some of this supposed to be have been written in bass clef or something)?
> 
> The viola part on page 2 first measure if I'm reading it correctly (hard to make out the clef), is playing a low c-flat. The viola cannot play that note. It cannot play below the C. Cello may possibly go out of range in same bar. Cannot tell for sure.


Just to make it clear I have started again yesterday since I wasn't impressed with the 2nd attempt.

To answer point by point it says extremely clearly it is in C at the top of the score, and the F Horn part is difficult but not impossible to play, something I will tone down though on my next attempt to make it easier.

Your comment on the viola not being able to play below C is not true because it's in Alto Clef as per standard, although your statement about the Cello going out of range was correct, and I didn't even fully realise it couldn't play that low, so thank you for that piece of criticism.


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## Torkelburger

JamieHoldham said:


> Just to make it clear I have started again yesterday since I wasn't impressed with the 2nd attempt.
> 
> To answer point by point it says extremely clearly it is in C at the top of the score, and the F Horn part is difficult but not impossible to play, something I will tone down though on my next attempt to make it easier.
> 
> Your comment on the viola not being able to play below C is not true because it's in Alto Clef as per standard, although your statement about the Cello going out of range was correct, and I didn't even fully realise it couldn't play that low, so thank you for that piece of criticism.


It says in C Major, that is not the same as Score in C. Score in C means non-transposed. You can have a piece in D Major and the indication "Score in C" at the top. A person who has studied orchestration and score prep would know that.

Good idea to change the horn part. It is ridiculously high throughout, whether you think impossible or possible. It is not musical.

The viola note is incorrect if that is the alto clef. It is the space 1 line below the staff with a flat in front of it. That indicates a c flat correct? Cannot play a c flat, only c natural.


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## JamieHoldham

Torkelburger said:


> It says in C Major, that is not the same as Score in C. Score in C means non-transposed. You can have a piece in D Major and the indication "Score in C" at the top. A person who has studied orchestration and score prep would know that.
> 
> Good idea to change the horn part. It is ridiculously high throughout, whether you think impossible or possible. It is not musical.
> 
> The viola note is incorrect if that is the alto clef. It is the space 1 line below the staff with a flat in front of it. That indicates a c flat correct? Cannot play a c flat, only c natural.


Ah yes, the flatted C, that is true, I forgot it wasn't natural.

As far as indicating score in C, I maybe should have for that attempt if those "impossible" notes were played on a different clef via transposing, but for my next attempt it is not transposed so there isn't any reason I would state it isn't unless it actually was.


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## Vasks

JamieHoldham said:


> no point organising the original manuscript which no one apart from unprofessionals on this website will see.


This is a critical point. This is the World Wide Web. And you have placed your scores out in it. Anybody can now see your work. Forget that TC itself does have regular contributors that have Bachelor, Master and even Doctorate degrees in music. If you don't think that professionals not active at TC don't look at TC posts you're being naive.

It behooves all of us that do post our works here to be sure that what we put up is our better efforts. I highly would discourage posters to put up sketches. The world needs to see your final thoughts.

And finally I really don't recommend putting up scores. If you (_that's an all-inclusive "you"_) happen to write good stuff, it makes it far too easy for another person to copy it and claim as their own.


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## JamieHoldham

Vasks said:


> This is a critical point. This is the World Wide Web. And you have placed your scores out in it. Anybody can now see your work. Forget that TC itself does have regular contributors that have Bachelor, Master and even Doctorate degrees in music. If you don't think that professionals not active at TC don't look at TC posts you're being naive.
> 
> It behooves all of us that do post our works here to be sure that what we put up is our better efforts. I highly would discourage posters to put up sketches. The world needs to see your final thoughts.
> 
> And finally I really don't recommend putting up scores. If you (_that's an all-inclusive "you"_) happen to write good stuff, it makes it far too easy for another person to copy it and claim as their own.


Well I am glad people can't read my handwriting as Torkel kept harking on about, also whilst I have never really thought about it, you could just do the same with any digital score on the internet and claim it as your own, which would be significantly easier than to copy my works, as its extremely unlikely anyone will go through the painstaking effort to copy down my works to a notation programme.

As for the first point I am aware there are a few professionals on this website but if there are any that have a genuine interest and a good enough reason to want to see my work and have the full score, I will put it in a notation programme and send it to them organised, clear and concise, otherwise I stand by my original point - the manuscript isn't going to be seen by anyone apart from random guests of the site and a few odd professionals here and there.


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## Torkelburger

JamieHoldham said:


> Ah yes, the flatted C, that is true, I forgot it wasn't natural.
> 
> As far as indicating score in C, I maybe should have for that attempt if those "impossible" notes were played on a different clef via transposing, but for my next attempt it is not transposed so there isn't any reason I would state it isn't unless it actually was.


You're supposed to make the indication anytime you have transposing instruments in the score (clarinet in Bb, English horn, French Horn, Trumpet in Bb). It would help even with treble clef. For example the first note C in the horn works with the c in the strings either as a c or a g so which one is it? It takes unnecessary effort to figure out.


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## JamieHoldham

Torkelburger said:


> You're supposed to make the indication anytime you have transposing instruments in the score (clarinet in Bb, English horn, French Horn, Trumpet in Bb). It would help even with treble clef. For example the first note C in the horn works with the c in the strings either as a c or a g so which one is it? It takes unnecessary effort to figure out.


Honestly of all the scores I have seen online, watching videos and just quickly searching on the internet I can't find little to any with the indication at all, so it doesn't seem important enough for me to mark it for every single work I create.


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## JosefinaHW

JamieHoldham said:


> Just saying the original comment by Vasks wasnt insulting, it was Edward that made it seem like I was a idiot which annoyed me.
> 
> Sorry for not having the clarification earlier.
> 
> And all that you typed up about people seeing my original scores and assuming things that most likely arent true, that's never going to happen. Ever.
> 
> If I want a professional to see my work, I will put the entire thing in a notation programme in the correct order as standard, no point organising the original manuscript which no one apart from unprofessionals on this website will see.


Warm Greetings Jamie!

*Do not fear or hesitate to post any of your music, ideas or questions here on TC! *


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## Torkelburger

JamieHoldham said:


> Honestly of all the scores I have seen online, watching videos and just quickly searching on the internet I can't find little to any with the indication at all, so it doesn't seem important enough for me to mark it for every single work I create.


Example here on Boosey & Hawkes (publisher) score at 6:50 mark:





If your horn part is non-transposed, then I do believe indeed it is unplayable for the most part. Most of the notes when transposed when the part is written are going to be way above the staff, treble clef.


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## Pugg

JosefinaHW said:


> Warm Greetings Jamie!
> 
> *Do not fear or hesitate to post any of your music, ideas or questions here on TC! *


I say Amen to this also.


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## JamieHoldham

Attempt No.3 and my best and maybe final attempt, Page 1 & 2:


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## JamieHoldham

Page 3:



and page 4:


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## JamieHoldham

Page 5, coming to a close:


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