# If You Could Only Have One Beethoven Symphony Cycle



## SixFootScowl

What one would it be?

This would be a no-brainer for me if Fricsay had a full cycle. But since he does not, i am kind of inclined towards Gunter Wand (but if I keep listening to the Hanover Band cycle, that may change). However, that is out of my current collection which includes full cycles of Hanover Band, Wand, Szell, Ferencsik, and Liebowitz (I had Walter but got rid of it as too stodgy, but am told I should have kept if for his 6th). I am interested in what others would pick for their sole Beethoven symphony cycle and why.

NOTE: I started this thread because I think the results will be very interesting, but also because we don't have enough Beethoven symphony cycle threads on this site. :lol:


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## hpowders

Gunter Wand. Not even close to being HIP. Takes time to smell the glorious roses. Just the way I like it in Beethoven. My favorite Beethoven symphony set among the seven that I own.


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## merlinus

I completely agree re: Fricsay. What a shame that upon his death we basically got von Karajan! Only Ronald Reagan comes close to his "emperor's new clothes" syndrome.

I have a few complete cycles (e.g. Barenboim, Bernstein/VPO), but they do not contain what I experience as close to the best recordings of any of the symphonies.


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## Itullian

Klemperer or Bohm or Bernstein DG or Walter or Konwitchny or Furtwangler


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## SixFootScowl

That Bernstein cycle keeps haunting me. Suspect I won't be satisfied until I have it.

By the way, there is an Immerseel cycle out there for $13 and free shipping, in good used condition, that tempted me yesterday, but I thought better of it since I already have a HIP in the Hanover Band.


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## clara s

Wand, because this interpretation touches the mind more than it touches the soul, and this I like 

and Abbado with BPO, what a tempo and a very unusual sound, also brainy


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## ArtMusic

I would pick a HIP version as well. But I simply could not choose which ones. So many excellent ones that have recorded these symphonies that are the central heart of western Classical music.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Probably Chailly. It has the best of both worlds: original tempi and big modern orchestra.


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## MoonlightSonata

* If You Could Only Have One Beethoven Symphony Cycle*... I'd be very sad.


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## Albert7

Not happening honestly. I can't just stick to one.

Too bad Kleiber never delivered a complete cycle.


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## GGluek

I only ever heard Fricsay's 7th, but it was a favorite of mine for many years. I've heard very few complete cycles -- but on the basis of a 7th, 8th, 9th, and Leonore 3 I would love to hear Schmidt-Isserstedt's complete cycle.


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## SimonNZ

Karajan '77, though the Eroica lets the set down and so I'll need to keep Klemperer's

Or for HIP: Hogwood, though the Pastoral lets the set down...but that's my least played work of the nine anyway so it doesn't matter much.


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## hpowders

clara s said:


> Wand, because this interpretation touches the mind more than it touches the soul, and this I like
> 
> and Abbado with BPO, what a tempo and a very unusual sound, also brainy


I have the Abbado and it is nice but sometimes I want him to "slow down" a bit.


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## shangoyal

I will take Karajan with the BPO 1963. I really like 3, 5 and 8 in that set. The only drawback is the sound quality. Some sets like Wand, Abbado, or Gardiner have better sound but the music is not better than the Karajan. He is the master when it comes to the heroic stuff, mainly 3 and 5.

Thank God we can *all *have more than one Beethoven set.


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## Albert7

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Probably Chailly. It has the best of both worlds: original tempi and big modern orchestra.


I really want that recent Chailly and Thielemann cycles for sure.


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## Pugg

MoonlightSonata said:


> * If You Could Only Have One Beethoven Symphony Cycle*... I'd be very sad.


Amen to this


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Albert7 said:


> I really want that recent Chailly and Thielemann cycles for sure.


I don't know if Thielemann would be right for me. I've seem a performance of his Eroica on YouTube which sounded really bland and uninspired. Perhaps he was just having a bad day that day and his Beethoven usually is exciting and emotional....but I haven't heard much said about Thielemann in general, other than the fact that he used to look like Augustus Gloop (not the Tim Burton film) when he was younger.


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## Blancrocher

My favorite set is by Szell, even though he didn't conduct my favorite version of any particular symphony. I like the cool, precise, classical approach. It's the one I turn to if I just want to let LVB roll for a few hours.


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## Templeton

Really tough choice. My top three are Furtwängler, Szell and Paavo Järvi but due to the superb sound quality, I would probably go for Paavo Järvi. They're all superb though.


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## clara s

hpowders said:


> I have the Abbado and it is nice but sometimes I want him to "slow down" a bit.


you got it hp

that's why it is unusual hahaha

matter of taste


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## hpowders

clara s said:


> you got it hp
> 
> that's why it is unusual hahaha
> 
> matter of taste


Yes. I like collecting multiple performances of music. You never find two that are exactly the same.

In Beethoven, I don't like the slow movements "glossed over"; played too fast because of some recent modern "scholarship" that claims "this is correct". Musical interpretation should be about how to make the music communicate best and sound convincing.

I can't believe that Beethoven would have preferred his adagios played andante.

Thats why I prefer the Gunter Wand set.

However, in Bach, Handel, Mozart and Haydn, I prefer the fine crisp HIP.

For me Beethoven is the first Romantic composer.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

^^^I can't believe Beethoven wanted his Allegrettos played Adagio.


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## hpowders

Well out of 10,000 people, my relativity calculations tell me that there will be two who do not like the Wand set.

Where do you think the expression "waving a magic Wand" comes from?


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## Überstürzter Neumann

Harnoncourt. My first choice in general, if available.


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## SixFootScowl

Well I was leaning towards Gunter Wand, but now I am listening to George Szell and liking it a lot. I do think Szell's Ninths is one of the best, short only of the very best which is Fricsay's Ninth.


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## KenOC

After many years of listening, and many recordings, I'd put Fricsay's 9th at the top of the heap. He died young, sadly. I believe this was DG's first stereo classical LP. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong...


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I've never heard anything conducted by Fricsay apart from a very fiery Bartok Concerto for Orchestra. I guess he must be good with the Beethoven 9 as well, perhaps even better because the Concerto for Orchestra recording I heard was simply stunning and it seems that his Beethoven 9 is praised much more often than his Bartok. I must check it out......


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## Queen of the Nerds

I don't know... but if I _had_ to, LSO under Haitink. (I am a bit biased because it was my first.)


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## Art Rock

"If You Could Only Have One Beethoven Symphony"

That is the title on the last posts page, so I was going to say the 6th.

Anyway, I'm happy with my Karajan (DG, 70s).


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## gardibolt

For a very long time I would have said Toscanini. Then I would have said Bernstein (New York). Currently, the René Leibowitz set (formerly the Reader's Digest LPs) has impressed me with its excellent recording quality and vibrant, exciting performances, and I'm constantly finding new things in it. And it's available in mp3 form from Amazon dirt cheap in the Genius of Beethoven set for $2.99 along with a bunch of other stuff.


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## SONNET CLV

I have more complete sets of Beethoven Symphonies than any sane person should, which, I suspect, says something germane about me.

But for some while I've tended to answer queries such as "If You Could Only Have One Beethoven Symphony Cycle, which would you choose" with this answer: Rudolf Kempe with the Munich Philharmonic Orchestra.









To my tastes, the symphonies sound "elemental" in these performances. No "slickness" here. Kind of "rough shod" and "spontaneous", more akin to the roughness of a Rodin sculpture such as _The Thinker _than to the polished marble of Michealangelo's _David_. I've long felt that these performances were close to what Beethoven himself may have heard, and I think the composer would appreciate them.

Though I have several dozen Beethoven symphony sets (and seem to always be acquiring new ones), it is to the Kempe that I often return when I just want to commune with Beethoven at his most primal.

By the way, ESOTERIC has reissued this set in a limited edition of 1500 copies made in Japan and recorded to SACD. I don't have that collection. Yet.

But if anyone wonders what _I_ dream about adding to my music disc collections, here's a look:


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## Itullian




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## Scififan

The Cycle done by The Hanover Band on original instruments directed by Roy Goodman and Monica Huggett. It was recorded on Nimbus Records in 1988.


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## elgar's ghost

I'd probably opt for Karajan's 60s cycle - they were the first Beethoven symphony recordings I bought and I still retain much affection for them.


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## Marsilius

Toscanini / NBC Symphony Orchestra or Szell / Cleveland Orchestra. It would have been great to have been a concertgoer in 1950s USA - those two plus Reiner, Stokowski, Paray et. al. (but I wouldn't have wanted to live there for any other reason).


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## SixFootScowl

Scififan said:


> The Cycle done by The Hanover Band on original instruments directed by Roy Goodman and Monica Huggett. It was recorded on Nimbus Records in 1988.


I have that cycle, but it doesn't do it for me. For some reason it sounds rather thin to me, a byproduct (I think) of the original instruments.

Not sure what cycle I indicated previously, but now I might go with Monteaux which is a hybrid cycle from two different orchestras.


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## Guest

Krips.

Now there's a name that keeps falling through the cracks, and rescued by people who have heard his recordings.


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## GreenMamba

some guy said:


> Krips.
> 
> Now there's a name that keeps falling through the cracks, and rescued by people who have heard his recordings.


The tin can set! that packaging probably hurts more than it helps.


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## shadowdancer

Karajan 50's with Philharmonia by EMI. 
The newly remastered version is not from this world!!


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## fjf

gardibolt said:


> For a very long time I would have said Toscanini. Then I would have said Bernstein (New York). Currently, the René Leibowitz set (formerly the Reader's Digest LPs) has impressed me with its excellent recording quality and vibrant, exciting performances, and I'm constantly finding new things in it. And it's available in mp3 form from Amazon dirt cheap in the Genius of Beethoven set for $2.99 along with a bunch of other stuff.


I just got his one: http://www.amazon.com/The-Beethoven-Treasury-l-v-beethoven/dp/B000F6NOV6

We'll see how good it is!


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## Guest

Well, you don't _have_ to get the tin can version.

Though, be fair, the tin can does not have any plastic bits to break off whenever you open the jewel box too vehemently.

As we know, classical fans can and do get pretty gee dee vehement from time to time.


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## Vaneyes

The topic says cycle, not set, so here goes...

1 & 2 - Solti '89/0
3 - HvK '63
4 & 6 - Walter '58
5 & 7 - Kleiber '74, '76
8 - Harnoncourt '90
9 - Solti '72


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## Le Peel

The only complete cycle I need is Gardiner/ORR.


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## SONNET CLV

some guy said:


> Krips.
> 
> Now there's a name that keeps falling through the cracks, and rescued by people who have heard his recordings.





GreenMamba said:


> The tin can set! that packaging probably hurts more than it helps.


The Krips set of Beethoven symphonies on the old MURRAY HILL box set issue was my first complete set of these symphonies. I played the discs to death and still have them. They look in better condition than they currently play. But I have also supplanted those worn out LPs with a less worn set I picked up at a used record shop some years ago. And I have gotten two different labels' copies of these discs on CD, including the tin can.









Krips is how I first heard most of the Beethoven symphonies, so these interpretations remains my standards of reference -- others are either better or worse than the Krips. But if the Krips is the only set you have, don't feel bad. I could live with just that set again if I had to.


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## Wood

Tin can or biscuit tin?


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## brotagonist

If I could have only one, then I'd have to get rid of one. No deal


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## KirbyH

I only own one cycle, and think that it's plenty - Karajan 1963. I wouldn't throw out my Fives and Sevens with Kleiber and Reiner, but as a cycle this one stands head and shoulders above the rest. I love proper, big band Beethoven, and Karajan never fails to deliver.


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## Grizzled Ghost

I'd go with the Vanska on BIS. Really superb! Throw in the Piano Concertos with Sudbin while you're at it.


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## SONNET CLV

Wood said:


> Tin can or biscuit tin?


It's also a great place to stash that "rainy day" cash you have on hand. Too, what thief, breaking into your house, would bother to check for riches in your Beethoven disc collection!?


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## elgar's ghost

^
^

Marvellous-looking potential mini-cigar case, too.


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## Guest

SONNET CLV said:


> It's also a great place to stash that "rainy day" cash you have on hand. Too, what thief, breaking into your house, would bother to check for riches in your Beethoven disc collection!?


What's your address, again? I don't have that, it seems.


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## KirbyH

I first encountered this cycle when I was in 11th grade - but what a cycle it is! For a budget box, it's not half bad. Krips was never anything less than reliable and the LSO plays quite well. The first time I heard the Fourth was from this set, and when I listened to it I said "what the heck is this weirdness?" Obviously maturity has granted me wisdom but I remember that first brush with the early symphonies - so thrilling.


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## AClockworkOrange

I cannot believe I either missed this thread or failed to post a response. 

Anyway, this is a tough one for me. Wilhelm Furtwängler is my favourite Beethoven interpreter but his cycle is not my favourite cycle overall. Symphonies 1 and 2 let the side down - in comparison with his considerable highs. It truly pains me to say that.

It is a pity Ferenc Fricsay never completed a cycle - his recording of the Ninth is one of the few to approach Furtwängler's level of interpretation. I have also always enjoyed his take on the Eighth Symphony too.

I suppose for me personally, depending on my mood it would likely be a choice between:
- Rudolf Kempe & the Münchner Philharmoniker
- Stanisław Skrowaczewski & the Saarbrücken Radio Symphony Orchestra
- Frans Brüggen & the Orchestra of the 18th Century

There is always a chance that Furtwängler would still win on an emotional level - being my introduction to Beethoven but as complete cycles go it is a competitive field. 

I feel bad for not listing Bernstein (DG) and Klemperer and I have finish Jochum's very enjoyable (so far) EMI cycle but as I say, there is very intense competition. 

In fairness, the only cycles I have heard and really disliked are those by Harnoncourt & the Chamber Orchestra of Europe and any by Karajan except for his Philharmonia cycle in the 1950's.

If pressed at the moment for one of the above, Stanisław Skrowaczewski would most likely be my choice.


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## Ukko

No 'cycle', thanks.


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## Dr Johnson




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## bobleflaneur

Bruggen's superb cycle has recently been reissued cheaply and, together with Gardiner and Krivine would be at the top of my HIP list.

For non-HIP, Mengelberg, Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin (stunningly played and recorded), Klemperer (now also cheaply reissued), parts of Bernstein I. I'd together a Furtwangler cycle too (but not the one issued by EMI!).


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## hpowders

The Gunther Wand. Takes time to smell the roses. The perfect HIP antidote!


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## haydnfan

After reading this thread I've ordered the Wand set which I've never heard.


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## hpowders

haydnfan said:


> After reading this thread I've ordered the Wand set which I've never heard.


They are wonderful performances! So warm....not like today's "historically-informed" Beethoven taken so fast, that I keep asking, "What's the point?" How could Beethoven be happy hearing his music played without poetry?


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## haydnfan

I'm kind of surprised that there aren't more conservative new sets out there. Nice to have a spectrum of recordings.


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## hpowders

haydnfan said:


> I'm kind of surprised that there aren't more conservative new sets out there. Nice to have a spectrum of recordings.


It's currently "the fad". The faster the better. Wrong! Bernstein/Vienna Philharmonic is fine "old school" too.


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## SalieriIsInnocent

I'll take Walter Weller's with the City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra for a modern performance. 

Jos van Immerseel with Anima Eterna for an HIP. 

The Walter Weller set was my introduction to Beethoven. I feel in love with his music through that set, and even though I'd say that there are most likely better sets to be found, I want what made me fall in love. 

Sad to hear that Walter Weller recently passed. I only just found out.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Ever since I heard Immerseel's Beethoven 9 I've decided that I prefer Gardiner, Chailly and Zinman for full cycles. The best recording of the 5th EVER is Immerseel's however.


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## maudia

The ones I know: Karajan 60's and 70's, Bruno Walter, Bernstein NYP and VP, Norrington, Toscanini, Harnoncourt, Gardiner, Krivine, Jansons, Klemperer, Chailly. The one I am listening: Gunter Wand. If I have to choose: Bernstein (a mix of both cycles) but without cheating: Karajan 60's (perhaps no first choice in any but the "standard" version. My favourite 1st at the moment Chailly. Fifth - Szell, for instance.


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## SixFootScowl

Well I am firmly convinced now that Zinman is the cycle for me.


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## billeames

Yes Szell 9th and Fricsay (best).


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## billeames

My previous post was too brief. I would say its very hard for me to decide. It would be either Szell or Karajan 1963. I am intrigued by the Kempe selection. I dont know if that is available. Ansemet has some good points. Vanska too!


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## Larkenfield

I feel just the opposite than the objective of this thread. There's no need to choose just one Beethoven cycle. It's an opportunity to hear what some of the greatest conductors in the world can do, and Beethoven's remarkable symphonies hold up well. I've never met anyone who has limited himself to only one cycle. But the Leibowitz cycle over the Bruno Walter? I had to rub my eyes. The Walter is a great cycle. One can learn volumes by hearing as many Beethoven cycles as possible over the years. Every conductor tries to make them his own. I'd rate Furtwangler's as high anyone's. I'd never limit myself to only one cycle as a way of choosing a favorite. No one does it except perhaps those who are new to the music. It's automatic that one would have to hear a number of different cycles to choose only one. It's a tremendous opportunity for learning and I feel that real listening should be encouraged as wide as possible in variety. Sets can be dirt cheap or even heard free online. No one does them the same and it's the chance to hear why different conductors and performances matter.


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## mbhaub

Paavo Jarvi with the Deutsche Kammerphilharmonie on RCA. Terrific recorded sound, stunning orchestral playing, dynamic and exciting conducting, and an orchestra that is the right size. Nothing wrong with any of it as far as I am concerned. Close 2nd: Mackerras on Hyperion. (yes, I like chamber orchestras in this music.)


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## Highwayman

Although my traditional champion of Beethoven is Furtwängler and I have an irrational personal affinity toward Ormandy and the Philly Orch. I would probably take Klemperer with me. Because Klemperer is a little bit too perfect and draws the golden standard for everything he conducts. 

I might have chosen Furtwängler or C.Kleiber over Klemperer on some individual symphonies but for the whole cycle I know he is the man and won't fail me. However, if Carlos could have done the full cycle, he would have change my final opinion. What a pity...


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## Guest

I don't think it would matter so much. I'd be undecided between my favorite conventional (Karajan '63) HIP (Immersaal) or semi-HIP (Harnoncourt). Probably Harnoncourt would be it. Maybe I should hear Chailly. Usually I find whatever he does superb, and Beethoven would be no exception, I would think.


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## mbhaub

Highwayman said:


> ...I have an irrational personal affinity toward Ormandy and the Philly Orch.


It's not irrational at all. One of the most grave injustices has been the treatment of Ormandy by both Sony and RCA (now combined) in the CD era. They still haven't released his Beethoven cycle which is beautiful - maybe too beautiful - but shows how a mid-European conductor with what was then the best orchestra in the world would take those mighty 9. I still have my LP set and will only get rid of it when cds come out. Well, as the cd era is now coming to a screeching halt, I may have to keep the well-worn LPs forever. His Brahms cycle was also terrific - all four marvelously done, but only 1 & 2 have made it to cd. With all those super-budget boxes coming out, and even some with Ormandy (Tchaikovsky) you'd think they'd make more of his recordings available. Like big box "Ormandy conducts Symphonies" and include Beethoven, Brahms, Rachmaninoff, Dvorak, and all his Mahler recordings.


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## Enthusiast

If I could only have one set I would buy the others separately. Seeing mention of Chailly's set, I am reminded that I was disappointed when I heard it. He is irresistible in the final movements but strangely disembodied otherwise, I thought.


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## Brahmsianhorn

I could not be without Furtwangler's Beethoven. I would choose this set of performances, however, over the EMI. For better sound, I would go with Bohm. Very reliable performances.


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## Ras

*If I could only have one Beethoven symphony cycle I'd go completely nuts!!!*


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## Guest

Karajan's 1960s cycle on SACD, which I happily own!


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## Enthusiast

A world where you can only have one set of Beethoven symphonies is a dystopia. In a utopia everyone would be entitled to at least 20 sets.


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## SixFootScowl

Enthusiast said:


> A world where you can only have one set of Beethoven symphonies is a dystopia. In a utopia everyone would be entitled to at least 20 sets.


There are nine symphonies so I guess one should have nine symphony cycles.


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## Brahmsianhorn

My mix-and-match set would include:

1 & 2 - Jochum DG
3 - Klemperer stereo
4 & 8 - Karajan '62
5 - Bernstein '76 (Amnesty Concert)
6 - Walter
7 - Bohm
9 - Furtwangler '54 Lucerne (Audite transfer)


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## Barbebleu

Brahmsianhorn said:


> My mix-and-match set would include:
> 
> 1 & 2 - Jochum DG
> 3 - Klemperer stereo
> 4 & 8 - Karajan '62
> 5 - Bernstein '76 (Amnesty Concert)
> 7 - Bohm
> 9 - Furtwangler '54 Lucerne (Audite transfer)


Who's Pastoral?


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## SixFootScowl

I would like the Fricsay cycle, but it is three symphonies short.


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## Merl

Fritz Kobus said:


> I would like the Fricsay cycle, but it is three symphonies short.


Tbh, Fritz, I've never rated many of Fricsay's Beethoven symphony recordings except that superb 9th and a very enjoyable, rugged 7th. I find his 8th stiff, his 1st very plain, his Eroica depressing and his 5th is one the slowest I've ever heard this side of Celi (and it's a bit dull too). I like Fricsay in other repertoire but his LvB is hit or miss for me. You may now throw stones at my windows, Fritzy! :devil:


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## Guest

mbhaub said:


> Paavo Jarvi with the Deutsche Kammerphilharmonie on RCA. Terrific recorded sound, stunning orchestral playing, dynamic and exciting conducting, and an orchestra that is the right size. Nothing wrong with any of it as far as I am concerned. Close 2nd: Mackerras on Hyperion. (yes, I like chamber orchestras in this music.)
> View attachment 105803


I remember considering this recording but passing for some reason. Now I'm tempted again, but it is out-of-print and the cheapest option is a Japanese import for $100.


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## DavidA

You could make up a pretty good cycle from Karajan's recordings

1 & 2 1963
3 1982
4&5 1963
6 1977 (or 1955 mono)
7 1963
8 1963
9 1977


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## Bulldog

Fritz Kobus said:


> I would like the Fricsay cycle, but it is three symphonies short.


Fricsay uses the abridged version. :lol:


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## SixFootScowl

Bulldog said:


> Fricsay uses the abridged version. :lol:


Still more symphonies than Brahms or Mendelssohn.


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## Bulldog

Fritz Kobus said:


> Still more symphonies than Brahms or Mendelssohn.


What about Mendelssohn's 13 symphonies for strings?


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## Brahmsianhorn

Barbebleu said:


> Who's Pastoral?


Oops! Walter. Thanks!


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## larold

Ansermet, classical like Toscanini, romantic like Bohm, luminous like period performance but none of the three. Joan Sutherland singing in the 9th also, a little bonus.


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## wkasimer

Baron Scarpia said:


> I remember considering this recording but passing for some reason. Now I'm tempted again, but it is out-of-print and the cheapest option is a Japanese import for $100.


That's probably the SACD version (which I bought as individual discs as they were released). There is a much cheaper RBCD alternative, which I've seen on eBay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Paavo-Jarv...lete-Symphonies-2004-2008-New-CD/131978944506


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## Larkenfield

larold said:


> Ansermet, classical like Toscanini, romantic like Bohm, luminous like period performance but none of the three. Joan Sutherland singing in the 9th also, a little bonus.


Glad this cycle was mentioned. I very much enjoy Ansermet's take on Beethoven. Lighter-textured, good spirited and lively. He uses a smaller orchestra that's not top-heavy on the strings like Beethoven might have used. Good-humored. Not bombastic or boisterous. Wonderfully fresh and delightful. The first three are personal favorites... No. 4 not quite as good. Goes well with Camembert and wine! Sorry, but I don't go along with those who diss this cycle. These are not rote performances._ "Vive la France!"_


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## Merl

Larkenfield said:


> Glad this cycle was mentioned. I very much enjoy Ansermet's take on Beethoven. Lighter-textured, good spirited and lively. He uses a smaller orchestra that's not top-heavy on the strings like Beethoven might have used. Good-humored. Not bombastic or boisterous. Wonderfully fresh and delightful. The first two are personal favorites. Goes well with Camembert and wine! Sorry, but I don't go along with those who diss this cycle. These are not rote performances.


I couldn't agree more. Well I l know that Granate, RDB, you and myself love this cycle so that's a big enough recommendation for anyone. It's brightly lit, fairly relentless, fun and exciting. Personally it's in my top ten cycles and it must be good to break into that lot. I love the 7th and 9th from this one, too.


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## larold

Some critics have called this "French" Beethoven. I don't completely understand that term but recognize it applies the traits discussed here: lighter texture, less bombast, cleaner articulation. It is still romantic, however.


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## Larkenfield

larold said:


> Some critics have called this "French" Beethoven. I don't completely understand that term but recognize it applies the traits discussed here: lighter texture, less bombast, cleaner articulation. It is still romantic, however.


For me, I wouldn't exactly describe this as French Beethoven, other than it seems to be played with a certain French sensibility and delight without trying to be French Beethoven. I don't think Ansermet was trying to play French Beethoven. Some impressions are hard to put into words. The performances certainly do not lack for energy and vitality, but sometimes it does seem to have the sound of a smaller chamber orchestra, which I happen to like, and I would imagine was a deliberate choice on his part.


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## Itullian

Klemperer or Bohm
only one?
Klempy


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## Merl

Larkenfield said:


> For me, I wouldn't exactly describe this as French Beethoven, other than it seems to be played with a certain French sensibility and delight without trying to be French Beethoven. I don't think Ansermet was trying to play French Beethoven. Some impressions are hard to put into words. The performances certainly do not lack for energy and vitality, but sometimes it does seem to have the sound of a smaller chamber orchestra, which I happen to like, and I would imagine was a deliberate choice on his part.


'French Beethoven! Utter rubbish. It's just a great cycle played vigorously. Some reviews are just plain silly.


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## mbhaub

How does the OSR on those Ansermet recordings? They were notorious for tuning problems, to put it nicely. Not that I cared much, I used to buy a lot of his recordings; they just feel "right". Another French conductor who turned in a superb Beethoven set was Andre Cluytens, of course he had the Berlin Phil to work with.


----------



## Hugo9000

I used to alternate between Hogwood's set and Gardiner's, but now I'm inclined more toward Lan Shui's set.


----------



## Merl

Hugo9000 said:


> I used to alternate between Hogwood's set and Gardiner's, but now I'm inclined more toward Lan Shui's set.


Lan Shui's cycle is a cracker. :tiphat:


----------



## CDs

Just today I completed getting Wand's cycle. Before I had just 1,6 & 9.
Listening to the 4th now. Not sure if it's my favorite but really enjoying the relaxing listening experience!


----------



## SixFootScowl

I am leaning towards Simon Rattle these days.


----------



## flamencosketches

Gonna have to be boring here, Karajan '63. The only other full cycle I've heard, Krips/London, pales in comparison (though I still like it, it was my introduction to Beethoven's music). I will some day purchase a second cycle, but it's not a particularly high priority.


----------



## NLAdriaan

A non-brainer: Bruggen II is it. Today I listened to the 9th from this set and it is a new world opening. All the varnish, all the intimidation is gone and you just listen to music, so alive.









Go get it, at a discount at the orchestra's own webshop:

http://www.orchestra18c-webshop.com/epages/63024268.sf/en_GB/?ViewObjectPath=%2FShops%2F63024268%2FProducts%2Fcd_016


----------



## Haydn70

NLAdriaan said:


> A non-brainer: Bruggen II is it. Today I listened to the 9th from this set and it is a new world opening. All the varnish, all the intimidation is gone and you just listen to music, so alive.
> 
> View attachment 115233
> 
> 
> Go get it, at a discount at the orchestra's own webshop:
> 
> http://www.orchestra18c-webshop.com/epages/63024268.sf/en_GB/?ViewObjectPath=%2FShops%2F63024268%2FProducts%2Fcd_016


What do you mean by "intimidation"?


----------



## Hermastersvoice

Did anybody mention Kletzki’s version with the Czech Phil? That classical approach (a la Klemperer) paired with the middle European sound (rustic strings, chuckling woodwind) of this wonderful band in a particularly fruitful period of its existence (the rhythm!!) always works wonders for me.


----------



## millionrainbows

Gardiner...............


----------



## millionrainbows

SONNET CLV said:


> The Krips set of Beethoven symphonies on the old MURRAY HILL box set issue was my first complete set of these symphonies. I played the discs to death and still have them. They look in better condition than they currently play. But I have also supplanted those worn out LPs with a less worn set I picked up at a used record shop some years ago. And I have gotten two different labels' copies of these discs on CD, including the tin can.
> 
> View attachment 71806
> 
> 
> Krips is how I first heard most of the Beethoven symphonies, so these interpretations remains my standards of reference -- others are either better or worse than the Krips. But if the Krips is the only set you have, don't feel bad. I could live with just that set again if I had to.


Where did you get that set, from the cut-out bins at Fed-Mart? :lol:


----------



## Red Terror

I love the Chailly set, but if forced to choose just one—I’d go with Brüggen.


----------



## Rogerx




----------



## Hermastersvoice

Whatever about Karajan 63, I simply don’t get how that cycle can be held in higher esteem than his cycle with the Philharmonia. Just listen to K flexing his muscles in the fifth; in 63 the muscles, the theatricality, the conviction are much diminished.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Karajan 1977, in its new 192k/24b Blu-Ray Audio master. The tempi are brisker than 1963 (but slower than Gardiner or Chailly), the sound is that sweet, sweet 1970's ADD with excellent miking on the tympani.

Not to denigrate the many other fine cycles. But this is the one that I keep returning to. On balance it hits all the right notes for me and my tastes. I like brisk, big band Beethoven.


----------



## jim prideaux

Peter Maag with an obscure Italian band on an obscure label and costing very little.....not convinced?......try the 2nd and 4th on one of the discs!


----------



## Enthusiast

It's funny but I don't like the Gardiner set, at all. He seemed concerned to make points rather than make music. It isn't that I don't find the points stimulating but I feel he "rushed to press". The live recordings he made of a couple of the symphonies a few years later are much better IMO and the difference is that he cares for the music. I am not sure I can think of a HIP Beethoven set that comes close to being one of my favourites - van Immerseel can seem a little bland after a few hearings, for example - but confess I gave up trying them. Harnoncourt's set is excellent (but not HIP) and he did do a couple of the symphonies with Concentus Musicus (also excellent). And I love (if that is the right word for such a cerebral approach) Vanska's set. I suppose Gardiner does succeed in creating a unique Beethoven sound - something that all the great sets do - but for me it was not enough.


----------



## DavidA

Hermastersvoice said:


> Whatever about Karajan 63, I simply don't get how that cycle can be held in higher esteem than his cycle with the Philharmonia. Just listen to K flexing his muscles in the fifth; in 63 the muscles, the theatricality, the conviction are much diminished.


Funny I have both sets and think the opposite


----------



## DavidA

Larkenfield said:


> Glad this cycle was mentioned. I very much enjoy Ansermet's take on Beethoven. Lighter-textured, good spirited and lively. He uses a smaller orchestra that's not top-heavy on the strings like Beethoven might have used. Good-humored. Not bombastic or boisterous. Wonderfully fresh and delightful. The first three are personal favorites... No. 4 not quite as good. Goes well with Camembert and wine! Sorry, but I don't go along with those who diss this cycle. These are not rote performances._ "Vive la France!"_


I had some of these years ago but never feel Ansermet has much idea about Beethoven.


----------



## NLAdriaan

Enthusiast said:


> It's funny but I don't like the Gardiner set, at all. He seemed concerned to make points rather than make music. It isn't that I don't find the points stimulating but I feel he "rushed to press". The live recordings he made of a couple of the symphonies a few years later are much better IMO and the difference is that he cares for the music. I am not sure I can think of a HIP Beethoven set that comes close to being one of my favourites - van Immerseel can seem a little bland after a few hearings, for example - but confess I gave up trying them. Harnoncourt's set is excellent (but not HIP) and he did do a couple of the symphonies with Concentus Musicus (also excellent). And I love (if that is the right word for such a cerebral approach) Vanska's set. I suppose Gardiner does succeed in creating a unique Beethoven sound - something that all the great sets do - but for me it was not enough.


I may suggest to give Bruggen II a try (2011 live recordings, Glossa label). It is a kind of moderate HIP, not to make points, no speed contest, just sheer music, without varnish of powerplay. They leave all the usual warhorses behind them. You might try the 9th for starters, you might be surprised by the freshness.


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

Wand's for me, especially the remastered set, which has a noticeably improved sound.


----------



## wkasimer

NLAdriaan said:


> I may suggest to give Bruggen II a try (2011 live recordings, Glossa label). It is a kind of moderate HIP, not to make points, no speed contest, just sheer music, without varnish of powerplay. They leave all the usual warhorses behind them. You might try the 9th for starters, you might be surprised by the freshness.


While I like Brüggen in virtually anything, including Beethoven, my problem with this particular set is the over-reverberant sound, which swallows up a lot of orchestral detail. So I generally prefer his earlier Philips set.


----------



## jim prideaux

I recommended Maag off the back of a return to the 2nd and 4th and have now had (obviously in my own mind)my observation confirmed by listening to the 7th and 8th again.


----------



## Merl

DavidA said:


> I had some of these years ago but never feel Ansermet has much idea about Beethoven.


You need to relisten. Ansermet's Beethoven is great (his Brahms was equally impressive). It's a very good cycle. The 7th and 9th are terrific. Bright recording but bags of energy and lovely spirited performances. If you like drive in your Beethoven this is a super set.


----------



## Johnnie Burgess

SONNET CLV said:


> I have more complete sets of Beethoven Symphonies than any sane person should, which, I suspect, says something germane about me.
> 
> But for some while I've tended to answer queries such as "If You Could Only Have One Beethoven Symphony Cycle, which would you choose" with this answer: Rudolf Kempe with the Munich Philharmonic Orchestra.
> 
> View attachment 71757
> 
> 
> To my tastes, the symphonies sound "elemental" in these performances. No "slickness" here. Kind of "rough shod" and "spontaneous", more akin to the roughness of a Rodin sculpture such as _The Thinker _than to the polished marble of Michealangelo's _David_. I've long felt that these performances were close to what Beethoven himself may have heard, and I think the composer would appreciate them.
> 
> Though I have several dozen Beethoven symphony sets (and seem to always be acquiring new ones), it is to the Kempe that I often return when I just want to commune with Beethoven at his most primal.
> 
> By the way, ESOTERIC has reissued this set in a limited edition of 1500 copies made in Japan and recorded to SACD. I don't have that collection. Yet.
> 
> But if anyone wonders what _I_ dream about adding to my music disc collections, here's a look:
> 
> View attachment 71758


Even though this is an old post I agree with. about wanting to buy more cycles. I have ordered 9 in the last week and a half.


----------



## Merl

At last count i was on 120 but have got more since then. Not sure now.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

How many cycles is too many cycles?

I believe I own 8. Is that not enough to get the basic gist of the various stylistic approaches?


----------



## JB Henson

Well what I've got...

Karajan '63 (daisy label vinyl + cd)
Karajan '78 (cd)
Szell (vinyl + cd)
Schmidt-Isserstedt (vinyl)
Solti '75 (vinyl)
Steinberg (vinyl)
Krips (vinyl)
Harnoncourt

Each has its merits.



MatthewWeflen said:


> How many cycles is too many cycles?
> 
> I believe I own 8. Is that not enough to get the basic gist of the various stylistic approaches?


 Not exactly. Remember, some of the best recordings (Kleiber's fifth, Fricsay's 9th, Reiner's fifth, etc.) were not part of any cycle.


----------



## Merl

MatthewWeflen said:


> How many cycles is too many cycles?
> 
> I believe I own 8. Is that not enough to get the basic gist of the various stylistic approaches?


Nah, you need at least 30 or 40 before you've encountered every style. And even then you might need a few individual performances... :lol:


----------



## larold

I only own one: Ansermet & Suisse Romande orchestra from the 1950s. I had a guy in Denver (I live in Michigan) convert my LPs to CDs before the set returned on CD. Ansermet is literal like Toscanini, romantic like Bohm, with the clarity of period performance but different from any of them. He also has Joan Sutherland and Anton Dermota singing in the 9th symphony. Some people call his work "French" Beethoven meaning it doesn't storm the heavens like Germans. That's OK with me.


----------



## Larkenfield

larold said:


> I only own one: Ansermet & Suisse Romande orchestra from the 1950s. I had a guy in Denver (I live in Michigan) convert my LPs to CDs before the set returned on CD. Ansermet is literal like Toscanini, romantic like Bohm, with the clarity of period performance but different from any of them. He also has Joan Sutherland and Anton Dermota singing in the 9th symphony. Some people call his work "French" Beethoven meaning it doesn't storm the heavens like Germans. That's OK with me.


 I've enjoyed Ansermet's Beethoven, too. I thought it was a nice change of pace with so many other cycles out there.


----------



## Enthusiast

larold said:


> I only own one: Ansermet & Suisse Romande orchestra from the 1950s. I had a guy in Denver (I live in Michigan) convert my LPs to CDs before the set returned on CD. Ansermet is literal like Toscanini, romantic like Bohm, with the clarity of period performance but different from any of them. He also has Joan Sutherland and Anton Dermota singing in the 9th symphony. Some people call his work "French" Beethoven meaning it doesn't storm the heavens like Germans. That's OK with me.


I must get to hear that set. But I do think the great Beethoven sets tend to have their own very distinctive Beethoven sounds.


----------



## Merl

Enthusiast said:


> I must get to hear that set. But I do think the great Beethoven sets tend to have their own very distinctive Beethoven sounds.


Couldnt agree more....there's nothing worse than bland Beethoven.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

This Furtwängler cycle in Tahra remasterings would be my desert island choice:

1 - 11/30/52
2 - ‘48
3 - ‘44
4 - ‘43
5 - 5/25/47
6 - 5/23/54
7 & 8 - ‘53
9 - 3/22/42


----------



## Larkenfield

Enthusiast said:


> I must get to hear that set. But I do think the great Beethoven sets tend to have their own very distinctive Beethoven sounds.


The Ansermet is not without its Beethoven sound.


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

I don't even have one...


----------



## BeethovenTheGreat

Carlos Kleiber / Leonard Bernstein


----------



## Brahmsian Colors

No set convinces me as a lone standout. Soooo.....

Symphony 1: Szell/Cleveland Orchestra
2: Cluytens/Berlin Philharmonic
3: Cluytens/Berlin Philharmonic
4: Walter/Columbia Symphony
5: Karajan/Berlin Philharmonic (1963)
6: Walter/Columbia Symphony
7: Reiner/Chicago Symphony
8: Karajan/Berlin Philharmonic (1963)
9: Reiner/Chicago Symphony


----------



## Common Listener

SalieriIsInnocent said:


> I'll take Walter Weller's with the City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra for a modern performance.





> The Walter Weller set was my introduction to Beethoven. I feel in love with his music through that set, and even though I'd say that there are most likely better sets to be found, I want what made me fall in love.


In terms of a complete cycle, that's what I've got by happenstance and it's good for me. Though my first individual Beethoven was either the Pastoral (which was apparently by the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Charles Groves) or Wand's Nos. 2 and 4 so that "first" may have been Wand and, given that I've recently gotten his Schubert cycle and love it, I'll probably be looking into that.


----------



## Dimace

This is a very nice thread. Mein sehr guter Freund Fritz, had a great idea to make something for the MOST serious recordings exist out there. Because, more serious recordings than of those for Beethoven's Symphonies, I can not imagine.

The thread went perfectly. Most of your suggestions are PERFECT! Maybe I'm missing two or three of them and I can say nothing, but almost everything of the rest have been listened by me. *But something is missing!* (I read all the 9 pages carefully to be sure…) Maybe his name is somewhere written, but, if this happened, was with ''small letters'' Just a reference and nothing more. And this is UNFAIR! The Japans made (I will help you) more than 20.000 km to make the recordings with him. They paid crazy money! This circle is one of the rarest out there! Not only because of the small number of copies the Japs made, but mainly because of its enormous quality. To help you a little more, I can tell you that this conductor is also mythos with the Mahler!

The thread is not over yet and I stop here. Tomorrow I will read AGAIN the whole thread to be sure. One way or an other, if one and only suggestion is there (I strongly doubt about this), is not enough. I notice that this director is also not present in the great, ''What we are listening'' thread. And he is a good German guy, very friendly, eats all of his food etc... :lol:


----------



## D Smith

I can’t remember if I responded to this thread before but here are the complete sets I own that I can remember:

Barenboim
Bernstein (2)
Blomstedt
Bohm
Cluytens
Karajan (all 4)
Harnoncourt
Jochum (2)
Masur
Monteux
Schuricht
Skrowaczeski
Steinberg
Szell
Wand
Walter

I like them all for different reasons. The ones I return to most are Karajan 63, Barenboim, Steinberg and Wand. And no, they aren’t enough! Hoping to get Ansermet next.


----------



## Dimace

D Smith said:


> I can't remember if I responded to this thread before but here are the complete sets I own that I can remember:
> 
> Barenboim
> *Bernstein (2)
> *Blomstedt
> *Bohm
> *Cluytens
> Karajan (all 4)
> Harnoncourt
> Jochum (2)
> *Masur*
> Monteux
> *Schuricht*
> Skrowaczeski
> Steinberg
> Szell
> *Wand*
> Walter
> 
> I like them all for different reasons. The ones I return to most are Karajan 63, Barenboim, Steinberg and Wand. And no, they aren't enough! Hoping to get Ansermet next.


I say YES to bolds and 2XYES to the Red one! (Where is your Gielen????)

(after I read for 2nd time the whole thread, I'm sure that the BEST and most RARE Beethoven's symphonies circle is missing. I will wait… )

Till now for me: Wand, Schuricht, Lennie, Herbie, *Gielen * (VERY IMPORTANT CIRCLE, my friends! It is also nowhere!) and Furt! (the missing one, I mentioned, will destroy the competition. Just wait and you shall see…)


----------



## SixFootScowl

I keep seeing a lot of support for Wand. That was my first cycle and I should go back to it sometime. My set unfortunately has a mid-note track break in the 6th going from the 4th to the 5th movement. Guess I could fix it by joining the two tracks into one. I have this set:


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

Can't believe I never responded here. I have owned quite a number of these sets and have pared it down to: Szell, Barenboim 1999, Walter, Kletzki, Blomstedt, Leibowitz, Krips, Morris. With the last three from low cost mp3 box set downloads. Although I like this one for it's sound quality and despite the fact that Barenboim looks like a Jewish Mafia boss, it is edged out of the top spot.









And I would have to go with this one, even though George Szell appears to be smelling something distasteful.


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Here are the sets I own in descending order of preference:

Karajan 77
Gardiner
Karajan 63
Chailly
Karajan 85
Wyn Morris
Getting hit by a bus
Bernstein VPO


----------



## flamencosketches

I like what ive heard of Chailly. If I were to get another cycle, I'm between that one and Gardiner (or maybe Brüggen who I've been hearing much about lately).


----------



## MatthewWeflen

flamencosketches said:


> I like what ive heard of Chailly. If I were to get another cycle, I'm between that one and Gardiner (or maybe Brüggen who I've been hearing much about lately).


Chailly's cycle has terrific sound. It is a bit hurry-sick in what have traditionally been slower movements, though. So symphonies like the 2 or 8 are great, but 5,6, and 7 can sound rushed and under-emotional. I think Gardiner's cycle strikes a better balance, but the sound is much less "big band."


----------



## SixFootScowl

Oldhoosierdude said:


> Can't believe I never responded here. I have owned quite a number of these sets and have pared it down to:  Szell, Barenboim 1999, Walter, Kletzki, Blomstedt, Leibowitz, Krips, Morris. With the last three from low cost mp3 box set downloads. Although I like this one for it's sound quality and despite the fact that *Barenboim looks like a Jewish Mafia boss*, it is edged out of the top spot.
> 
> View attachment 115832
> 
> 
> And I would have to go with this one, even though *George Szell appears to be smelling something distasteful*.
> 
> View attachment 115833


Now that you put it that way, both of these need to go into the strange album covers thread! :lol:


----------



## SixFootScowl

MatthewWeflen said:


> Here are the sets I own in descending order of preference:
> 
> Karajan 77
> Gardiner
> Karajan 63
> Chailly
> Karajan 85
> Wyn Morris
> *Getting hit by a bus*
> Bernstein VPO


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


----------



## Dimace

Fritz Kobus said:


> *I keep seeing a lot of support for Wand.* That was my first cycle and I should go back to it sometime. My set unfortunately has a mid-note track break in the 6th going from the 4th to the 5th movement. Guess I could fix it by joining the two tracks into one. I have this set:


If we don't support Wand with Beethoven and Bruckner, we must change forum and go to Chelsea's to speak about goals and assists. VERY BIG DIRECTOR! HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE!


----------



## MatthewWeflen

MatthewWeflen said:


> Here are the sets I own in descending order of preference:
> 
> Karajan 77
> Gardiner
> Karajan 63
> Chailly
> Karajan 85
> Wyn Morris
> Getting hit by a bus
> Bernstein VPO


Having acquired a few more cycles, this is my new ranking:

Karajan 77
Fischer/Danish Chamber Orchestra
Gardiner 94
Karajan 63
Toscanini 1950s
Hogwood
Karajan 85
Karajan Philharmonia
Chailly
Wyn Morris
Getting hit by a bus
Bernstein VPO


----------



## flamencosketches

MatthewWeflen said:


> Having acquired a few more cycles, this is my new ranking:
> 
> Karajan 77
> Fischer/Danish Chamber Orchestra
> Gardiner 94
> Karajan 63
> Toscanini 1950s
> Hogwood
> Karajan 85
> Karajan Philharmonia
> Chailly
> Wyn Morris
> Getting hit by a bus
> Bernstein VPO


Glad to see that the only Beethoven cycle I own in full, Wyn Morris/LSO, has just barely edged out "getting hit by a bus"...  I need to get my hands on one of the Karajan cycles, I like what I've heard of them. But I'm not often in a Beethoven symphonies mood these days.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

MatthewWeflen said:


> Having acquired a few more cycles, this is my new ranking:
> 
> Karajan 77
> Fischer/Danish Chamber Orchestra
> Gardiner 94
> Karajan 63
> Toscanini 1950s
> Hogwood
> Karajan 85
> Karajan Philharmonia
> Chailly
> Wyn Morris
> Getting hit by a bus
> Bernstein VPO


LOL Bernstein/VPO is my favorite out of all those


----------



## MatthewWeflen

Brahmsianhorn said:


> LOL Bernstein/VPO is my favorite out of all those


Variety is the spice of life


----------



## starthrower

I'll go with the latest cycle I acquired which is Skrowaczewski / Saarbrucken Radio Symphony. This one sounds very good throughout. My other cycles include:

Monteux / London, Vienna
Bernstein / NYP
Bohm / Vienna
Klemperer's 50s live recordings


----------



## Ulfilas

I have three favourites in modern sound: Harnoncourt/COE, Vänskä/Minnesota, Barenboim/Berlin Staatskapelle.

If I had to choose just one, I'd lean towards the first.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

If I could only have one, it would be the Furtwangler cycle that Andromeda put together (not the Warner that has subpar VPO performances). In modern sound, probably Blomstedt or Bohm.


----------



## AClockworkOrange

There are so many choices, I could not limit myself to one in reality. * Hypothetically I'd choose Otto Klemperer* right now but tomorrow it may change.

I would take the box set on EMI but if allowed substitute the studio Ninth with the live Ninth on Testament. It's not a dealbreaker though.


----------



## Becca

AClockworkOrange said:


> There are so many choices, I could not limit myself to one in reality. * Hypothetically I'd choose Otto Klemperer* right now but tomorrow it may change.
> 
> I would take the box set on EMI but if allowed *substitute the studio Ninth with the live Ninth on Testament*. It's not a dealbreaker though.


...and substitute the 1955 stereo recording of the 7th 

I just realized that between that with the live 9th and the older 5th & 7th, I actually have a complete Klemperer set :lol: and BTW, the only set I have (I generally don't believe in them.) The rest of my Beethoven is a real hodge-podge of Immerseel, Walter, Giulini, Barbirolli, Jansons, Monteux, Rattle, C. Kleiber, K. Petrenko and Chailly (the latter about to be purged.)


----------



## Guest002

I've only got:


Barenboim
Bruggen
de Vriend
Fischer
Gardiner
Järvi
Masur
Rattle
Solti
Vänskä

So I don't have a lot of the ones that have already been mentioned in this thread and accordingly no point of comparison. But from that lot, I like the Rattle a lot and the de Vriend is excellent. The Solti 1971/72 cycle is old-school powerful though.

Only one, you say?

Oh. I dunno... I think I'd take the Rattle at a pinch. It has enough attractions throughout the set to keep me happy, I think, though none may be the best available.


----------



## Enthusiast

^ Of those I would want to include Vanska and Fischer (Adam, I assume?) on my shortlist. I also agree that Solti's set is good.


----------



## larold

In traditional big band Beethoven I'm very happy with *Ansermet L'Orchestre de la Suisse Romande* I acquired many years ago on LP and had converted to CD. I'm listening to the Second Symphony right now.

His Beethoven -- done in what some critics called the "French" style -- is a combination of Toscanini's literalism and drive, Bohm's romance, and the period performance crowd's clean lines and elouction. He also has the great Joan Sutherland singing in the 9th and terrific London FFRR sound from the 1950s and 1960s.

Universal released it via Eloquence in the CD era but, inexplicably, in three different sets. I heard those and, like most Eloquence re-recordings, the LPs sounded better with the exception of the occasional blur or pop. The timpani is twice as good on the LPs.

I've heard all or parts of just about everything mentioned here and wouldn'trade it for them. This is probably because I'm set in my ways, not because the others are inferior or insufficient to meet my needs. I'm happy with what I've settled on after years of searching.

For dialed down period Beethoven I also like *Norrington's 1985 period set on EMI* but his Ninth Symphony would be considered bizarre by most people. His others were all bracing and, when called for such as in the Sixth, velvety and friendly.

A good Ninth to match with Norrington is Richard Hickox's version on ASV that used a band about the size the composer would have known. He used the latter day principle of period style and modern instruments with tremendous singing from soloists Alfreda Hodgson, Heather Harper, Robert Tear and Gwynne Howell with one slight exception -- a missed note.

This style of period practice and modern instruments became de rigueur in Beethoven and was used by Abbado, Vanska and others.

Aside from sets I heard some magnificent single recordings over the years including:

-- *Karl Bohm's 4th symphony* with Berlin Philharmonic. This was an earful unlike any I'd known. He made the first figure so big, so monumental the idea of femininity or softness in the even-numbered symphonies was upended.

-- The famous *5th symphony of the young Kleibe*r has an electric charge no one has matched.

-- I liked *Colin Davis's stereo recording of the 7th*, the first I heard that really danced.

-- In the day *Hans Schmidt-Isserstedt's 9th symphony* was the standard by which most were judged. It still holds up today.


----------



## Ravn

Having observed that no-one has mentioned my favorite (although incomplete) cycle, I feel that this may be a controversial choice. But my favorite cycle by a mile, is *Celibidache* with MPO. Yes, I know that the first movement of the 7th is painfully slow (and sadly the repetition of the exposition is ommited) and that the triangelist is out of time in the 9th, but in this case the chain is thankfully so much stronger than its weakest link(s). Celi's broad tempi brings out so much joy and power that it renders me speechless. His rendition of the 5th and Eroica is in my opinion the pinnacle of all recorded pre-1900's music.

I do, of course like many other cycles, for example Karajan's cycles, Böhm, Brüggen, Bernstein and Rattle, but none of these achieve the same as Celibidache.


----------



## Malx

dizwell said:


> I've only got:
> 
> 
> Barenboim
> Bruggen
> de Vriend
> Fischer
> Gardiner
> Järvi
> Masur
> Rattle
> Solti
> Vänskä
> 
> So I don't have a lot of the ones that have already been mentioned in this thread and accordingly no point of comparison. But from that lot, I like the Rattle a lot and the de Vriend is excellent. The Solti 1971/72 cycle is old-school powerful though.
> 
> Only one, you say?
> 
> Oh. I dunno... I think I'd take the Rattle at a pinch. It has enough attractions throughout the set to keep me happy, I think, though none may be the best available.


Is that the recent Rattle set you refer to dizwell?


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## Dimace

Very difficult question this one, almost without answer. In my Greatest's Konvolut there are up to this moment more than 1.200 recordings of his symphonies in any form and medium. Many double, triple ore more (as with Kempe, Karajan etc) because of collectability issues and sound. In every hearing my Favourites change. Today I love more the X circle and the Y conductor, after one month the R and P. All the guys are doing Beethoven's Symphonies or Circles, with respect for the composer are good for me. The superb power of the music allows me to accept every reasonably good effort. The post Nr.158 from our friend larold gives us some great suggestions.(especially for the 9th) Other friends also had some very nice picks. *My favourite circle is the one with Beethoven himself on the podium.* One teacher, friend of mine, found this unique recordings and, before his last journey to meet him in the heaven, gave them to me for free! It is a CYE (Close Your Eyes) production from the year ???? in one 220 (next year it will be 221...) inch LP and is working always like a dream, especially when I' m in the mood to accept its music. Beethoven is starting after the end of the sound. He is the ''alter ego'' (sic) of the music. The step beyond. Today Beethoven conducts his 3rd with Nervosität! His nephew provoked him again problems. Tomorrow his 6th is full of calmness. He is lying on his armchair thinking his immortal love. And the day after, his 8th, is another joke, one of the many he was doing, when the wine was speaking in his blood late at the night. With Beethoven and Bruckner, also the good rehearsals are great to my ears. I close my eyes, I open my ears and, this is important, my heart and I choose as the best EVERYTHING made by the great conductors to honour the greatest of the composers.

*Scherchens recordings (circle) is the most circumstantial in the history of music. For todays standards, maybe, a no go. Behind all those imperfections I found the true meaning of Beethoven, as I tried to expose it above. God bless the Japans and the craziness of Hermann.


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## Heck148

I have Toscanini and Solti, both of which are excellent, but my ultimate favorite would be Reiner...
Commercially available:
#s 1, 3, 5, 6, 7, 9 with CSO
#2 - PittsSO
Live, video TV performances:
#s 2, 7
Archival release - CSO:
#s 4, 8


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## DBLee

MatthewWeflen said:


> Having acquired a few more cycles, this is my new ranking:
> 
> Karajan 77
> Fischer/Danish Chamber Orchestra
> Gardiner 94
> Karajan 63
> Toscanini 1950s
> Hogwood
> Karajan 85
> Karajan Philharmonia
> Chailly
> Wyn Morris
> Getting hit by a bus
> Bernstein VPO


Interesting . . . I picked up the Fischer a while back after reading several favorable reviews. It has some nice moments, but at times it seems as if he's trying too hard to be quirky. I very much like Gardiner and several other of your choices as well, though. Well, maybe not so much that getting hit by a bus thing.


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## Becca

MatthewWeflen said:


> Having acquired a few more cycles, this is my new ranking:
> 
> Karajan 77
> Fischer/Danish Chamber Orchestra
> Gardiner 94
> Karajan 63
> Toscanini 1950s
> Hogwood
> Karajan 85
> Karajan Philharmonia
> Chailly
> Wyn Morris
> Getting hit by a bus
> Bernstein VPO


I would probably put getting hit by a bus a bit higher on the scale


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## NLAdriaan

My favourite cycle is a virtual/partial one:

Kleiber 4*, 5, 6, 7

Full cycle:
Bruggen II
Ivan Fischer / RCO*

On topic, Kleiber would be enough, with Bruggen II/ 3 & 9 to fill the gaps.


----------



## NLAdriaan

Dimace said:


> *Scherchens recordings (circle) is the most circumstantial in the history of music. For todays standards, maybe, a no go. Behind all those imperfections I found the true meaning of Beethoven, as I tried to expose it above. God bless the Japans and the craziness of Hermann.


You mean this one, just about to be re-issued this May by your countrymen?


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## Dimace

NLAdriaan said:


> You mean this one, just about to be re-issued this May by your countrymen?
> View attachment 133003


This is the Westminster from 1956, with LSO, if I remember correctly. It was partially released in great LPs (USA) I have spoken (I made also a super extended presentation in our community last year) for the 1965 issue from Vavan Media (Japan) with the crazy guys of *Orchestra Della Radio Televisione Della Svizzera Italiana * :lol:


----------



## HenryPenfold

LvB's symphonies have been creeping back into my playlists of late. Especially #5!!!!

I have more LvB cycles than you can shake a stick at, but the two that I'm really enjoying are Hogwood's and HvK (1963).

Not sure why, but I'm finding these two sets absolutely gripping.


----------



## Merl

Dimace said:


> This is the Westminster from 1956, with LSO, if I remember correctly. It was partially released in great LPs (USA) I have spoken (I made also a super extended presentation in our community last year) for the 1965 issue from Vavan Media (Japan) with the crazy guys of *Orchestra Della Radio Televisione Della Svizzera Italiana * :lol:
> 
> View attachment 133004


Sorry to correct you, Dimace, but the Scherchen cycle wasn't wifh the LSO. It was the Vienna State Orchestra / RPO set that (as you rightly pointed out) came out on Westminster back in the late 50s. I hope its had a remaster as there were some dodgy balances and occasional dropouts in the original set but it remains essential listening from a man whose full-throttle Beethoven was invigorating at a time when the Wagner school were distending and elongating the symphonies. The Lugano Live cycle is the one id really love them to remaster, though. It's rough, superfast and gripping but the sound is sadly not top notch. The live Eroica is a thing of wonder and (I think) still the quickest on record.


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## SixFootScowl

Enthusiast said:


> ^ Of those I would want to include Vanska and Fischer (Adam, I assume?) on my shortlist. I also agree that Solti's set is good.


The last cycle I purchased is Vanska, last July, but have not really listened to it enough. Going to put it back on my player in place of Rattle and spend some time with it.


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## Helgi

I'm accumulating Beethoven symphony cycles at an alarming rate these days. Just ordered Skrowaczewski and Günter Wand, and now hankering after Brüggen.

Suffice to say I enjoy having a variety of interpretations to choose from.

If I had to choose one, right now I would probably keep Paavo Järvi/DKB. It's pacey and energetic without any sense of rushing, and the attention to detail and nuance is impressive given the tempo.

So I would keep that but replace the 9 with something like Fricsay/BPO when no one was looking


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## SixFootScowl

Helgi said:


> I'm accumulating Beethoven symphony cycles at an alarming rate these days. Just ordered Skrowaczewski and Günter Wand, and now hankering after Brüggen.
> 
> Suffice to say I enjoy having a variety of interpretations to choose from.
> 
> If I had to choose one, right now I would probably keep Paavo Järvi/DKB. It's pacey and energetic without any sense of rushing, and the attention to detail and nuance is impressive given the tempo.
> 
> So I would keep that but replace the 9 with something like *Fricsay/BPO *when no one was looking


Best Ninth, bar none, IMO. I have some 4 dozen or so Ninths and none top Fricsay's.


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## Brahmsianhorn

My perfect cycle, which I’ve kept for years as an iTunes playlist, is a hodgepodge of Furtwängler's wartime and postwar live recordings:

1 - 11/29/52 (Tahra)
2 - 1948 (EMI)
3 - 1944 (Tahra)
4 - 1943 (DG)
5 - 5/25/47 (Tahra)
6 - 5/23/54 (Tahra)
7 - 1953 (DG)
8 - 1953 (DG)
9 - 3/22/42 (Tahra)


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## strawa

Search Thread: Suitner. "Sorry - no matches".

So, I would like to mention a cycle that I like.


----------



## SixFootScowl

This is it. The only Beethoven symphony cycle that I need. Though I don't have this set, I have all the recordings in three separate sets. 









As a bonus you get a second Eroica and about 25 minutes of a rehearsal session for the Ninth.


----------



## Geoff48

Unfortunately one of the potentially great cycles was never finished due to the Conductor’s premature death. I refer to the early fifties Decca with Erich Kleiber. He recorded the Eroica (Vienna), 5th, Pastoral, 7th (Concertgebouw) and Choral (Vienna). There is also an elusive 2nd from the thirties.
The 5th is arguably the most exciting ever recorded, far better than that of Carlos, the Eroica has the first movement repeat missing from his earlier Concertgebouw version, the Pastoral a vast improvement on the London version on 78s although that was the version from which I got to know the symphony. All the symphonies are noted for their great forward momentum.
If I had to select a complete cycle I suspect I would opt for Karajan 62, great traditional interpretations with the Berlin Philharmonic not putting a foot wrong, or Klemperer, great strength. I would not opt for a modern speed king such as Zinman. His interpretations are great for an initial hearing but unlike the classic Germans does not wear well.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Geoff48 said:


> Unfortunately one of the potentially great cycles was never finished due to the Conductor's premature death. I refer to the early fifties Decca with Erich Kleiber. He recorded the Eroica (Vienna), 5th, Pastoral, 7th (Concertgebouw) and Choral (Vienna). There is also an elusive 2nd from the thirties.
> The 5th is arguably the most exciting ever recorded, far better than that of Carlos, the Eroica has the first movement repeat missing from his earlier Concertgebouw version, the Pastoral a vast improvement on the London version on 78s although that was the version from which I got to know the symphony. All the symphonies are noted for their great forward momentum.
> If I had to select a complete cycle I suspect I would opt for Karajan 62, great traditional interpretations with the Berlin Philharmonic not putting a foot wrong, or Klemperer, great strength. I would not opt for a modern speed king such as Zinman. His interpretations are great for an initial hearing but unlike the classic Germans does not wear well.


Sadly we don't have a complete cycle from Fricsay either. Missing 2, 4, and 6.


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## Geoff48

I agree that a complete set by Fricsay would be interesting although I must admit to finding his Beethoven a little disappointing particularly his 5th which is a little stodgy. In fact I find his best Beethoven performance to be the 3rd concerto with Annie Fischer. Of the Symphonies I like his Choral. However I think his magic Flute, Verdi Requiem and Tchaikovsky Symphonies are fat mor representative of a great conductor than his Beethoven.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Geoff48 said:


> I agree that a complete set by Fricsay would be interesting although I must admit to finding his Beethoven a little disappointing particularly his 5th which is a little stodgy. In fact I find his best Beethoven performance to be the 3rd concerto with Annie Fischer. Of the Symphonies I like his Choral. However I think his magic Flute, Verdi Requiem and Tchaikovsky Symphonies are fat mor representative of a great conductor than his Beethoven.


I could happily keep Monteux's Beethoven symphonies 1-8 and sub in Fricsay for the Ninth. I like the Monteux Ninth but the old recording is not so clean.


----------



## Itullian

Klemperer or Walter or Bernstein
Klemperer


----------



## Chilham

If You Could Only Have One Beethoven Symphony Cycle? What do you mean, if?


----------



## larold

I have owned 50 but only have one now:


----------



## Agamenon

KLEMPLERER, and KLEMPERER and KLEMPERER.


----------



## Axter

My fav. among all


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## RogerWaters

Blomstedt's first. Avoids decrepit bloating, which reduces the virility that I picture Beethoven relishing, at the same time as puniness and rushing. 

I also like Vanska, Jochum and Karajan (60s and 70s).


----------



## Rogerx

Bernstein the DVD series, gorgeous playing and amusing watching.


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## Simon23

Difficult choice, but I think - Klemperer (EMI).


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## haziz

SixFootScowl said:


> That Bernstein cycle keeps haunting me. Suspect I won't be satisfied until I have it.
> 
> By the way, there is an Immerseel cycle out there for $13 and free shipping, in good used condition, that tempted me yesterday, but I thought better of it since I already have a HIP in the Hanover Band.


Of course considering the age of the original post, it is too late for that deal, but I highly recommend the Anima Eterna/Immerseel set. I like both "tradional" as well as HIP performances of Beethoven, and the Immerseel/Anima Eterna set is great. It is also very well recorded. Highly recommended!


----------



## SixFootScowl

SixFootScowl said:


> This is it. The only Beethoven symphony cycle that I need. Though I don't have this set, I have all the recordings in three separate sets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As a bonus you get a second Eroica and about 25 minutes of a rehearsal session for the Ninth.


Another cycle I need:


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## FastkeinBrahms

If there were only one, life would be possible -but pointless.
1. Blomstedt/Dresdner
2. Walter, the mono ones except the 9th
3. Harnoncourt/CoE


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## haziz

Very hard to boil it down to one set, but if I had to I would be happy with any of these:

Either of the following two for "traditional" performance:
- Karajan - BPO (1960s)
- Szell - Cleveland Orchestra

For HIP my preference goes to:
- Immerseel - Anima Eterna Brugge

I would be happy with any of the above, or of course all of them. I have between 20 and 30 sets of physical CDs in my collection, including a couple of duplicates, and now with high definition streaming services, a seemingly endless number of sets.


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## Nipper

Of the 32 complete cycles I have, I'd choose Herbert Blomstedt with Staatskapelle Dresden. A great sounding orchestra, smartly conducted. Fairly consistent, with great 4, 6, 7, 8; and one of my favorite Ninths.

Günter Wand would be next. Very consistently great. Only a slight letdown from the vocals on 9.

George Szell with Cleveland is also very consistent. No duds. A great _Eroica_, 7th, and 8th. Lean and precise.

Paul Kletzki with the CPO is consistently great with a very characterful sound to the orchestra.


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## Yabetz

I think it would be the Blomstedt/Dresden Staatskapelle for me. Call me crazy.


----------



## Xisten267

SixFootScowl said:


> This is it. The only Beethoven symphony cycle that I need. Though I don't have this set, I have all the recordings in three separate sets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As a bonus you get a second Eroica and about 25 minutes of a rehearsal session for the Ninth.


I've never heard Monteux before, but I'm hearing his _Pastoral_ on youtube now and I'm greatly enjoying it.


----------



## AndorFoldes

Yabetz said:


> I think it would be the Blomstedt/Dresden Staatskapelle for me. Call me crazy.


I won't, in fact I'm inclined to agree with you. The only weakness is the fifth, which does not compare favourably with Karajan's thrilling performance in the 1960s cycle. Everything else is wonderful, however.


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## mbhaub

Nice old thread. My choice for now would be the Paavo Jarvi set with the Bremen Chamber Orchestra on RCA in glorious SACD. He has the right size of orchestra, the music moves, it's flawlessly played, you can everything, they are all fresh, lively and exciting. Turn up the volume on the surround sound system, have a cold one on hand - great listening. Yes, if I could only keep one this is it.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Because I have heard these works so many times and need truly special interpretations in order to keep me engaged, I would go with the conductor who IMO breathes the most life into Beethoven - Furtwängler. For a stereo cycle, probably Kletzki/Czech Phil - the vibrant orchestral colors and dance rhythms are downright delightful. Might also consider Klemperer and Barenboim Teldec.


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## Endeavour

If I could only have one single recorded Beethoven cycle to take with me somewhere, it would be Gunter Wand with the NDR. I've got LOTS to choose from and I love having all the options but it really does check all the boxes for me.


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## Chilham

In addition to the Harnoncourt I mentioned on a previous page ...










... I've recently acquired the Adam Fischer and the Danish Chamber Orchestra cycle and am enjoying it very much.


----------



## Knorf

I think if I had to pick only one Beethoven set or die horribly, I would contemplate the merits of dying. Assuming I decided to live, I think I'd grab the Skrowaczewski/Saarbrücken. But I'd look back most sadly at the Abbado/Berlin, Immerseel/AE, and Karajan/Berlin 1960s sets that I left behind...


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## MarkW

Raleigh, with the Bose sound system.


----------



## FrankinUsa

Wow. This is easy. George Szell and The Cleveland are. Dy-na-MIGHT.


----------



## Olias

Endeavour said:


> If I could only have one single recorded Beethoven cycle to take with me somewhere, it would be Gunter Wand with the NDR. I've got LOTS to choose from and I love having all the options but it really does check all the boxes for me.


I recently re-listened to the Wand cycle. It is marvelously good and would be on my short list.

My personal choice is Mackerras with the Royal Liverpool Orchestra. A close second would be the Bernstein/Vienna 1979 cycle.


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## SixFootScowl

Well I guess I need to pull out my Wand cycle and give it another go.


----------



## Bruckner Anton

I will take the Wand NDR RCA set for the following reasons:
1. Excellent overall performance, consitant, clean, energetic, subtle, balanced.
2. Performed almost strictly according to the original score (or the first published version) on modern instruments.
3. Outstanding sound quality, very natural, realistic and rich sound which is better than most sets.


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## CnC Bartok

An appalling dilemma to have, one set? I would want a "traditional" set, as well as a HIP one, and then impossible.....

If forced, my traditional set would be pne of Cluytens, Kletzki, or most likely Jochum's Lnodon set.

HIP, I am afraid I remain completely loyal to the Krivine set, but would be perfectly happy with Immerseel instead.


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## Holden4th

I've yet to hear a cycle that didn't have a weakness somewhere so I'd probably put together a set from all my favourites but that's not the purpose of this thread. 

I have many cycles of these great works and choosing would be an issue. The first conductor that springs to mind is Reiner. Technically, he never set out to record a complete set but there are recordings of all nine symphonies out there and I have them all. Walter and Cluytens jump immediately to mind as well. Then there's Monteux. I've got a set of Toscanini that rates well from his NBCSO days that has been very well remastered. some great performances but they chose the wrong Eroica. So if I was only allowed to keep one set it would be a toss up between Reiner, Walter, Monteux and Cluytens.

Interestingly, asked to pick individual symphonies I wouldn't be able to make a complete set out of these four. For example, my favourite Eroica is Bernstein NYPO, my Choral is the Fricsay. #1 is the Toscanini NBCSO and the best fifth ever recorded IMHO is von Karajan's.


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## Merl

It still amazes me how many different opinions there are on the available cycles but with around 180 complete or nearly complete sets thats not surprising. Most regular visitors here know many of my favourites from my LvB cycle reviews however I dont think ive played a complete cycle for at least a year (omg, merl!). I'll wait till my next review (whenever that is). If you'd have asked me a year ago I'd have probably agreed with Knorf and gone for Stan the Man or failing that Norrington 2 or Gielen 2. Today, who knows?


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## skroderider

Georg Solti, or Neville Marriner. I know that's 2.


----------



## fbjim

an extremely underrated pair that I've fallen in love with over the last year or so is Leibowitz (this was famous once upon a time- it was the Readers Digest cycle, and a lot of people ordered records from them back then) and Steinberg (a great conductor who had the misfortune of being on Command Records for a good part of his career). 

Leibowitz is an early example of more historically-inclined metronome fidelity, and Steinberg is in that sort of Bohm-ian "play it straight" mentality but both are really fine if you could only have one.


----------



## SanAntone

When I was listening to Beethoven symphonies it was one of the HIP/PI orchestras - but these days I can get by with none.


----------



## Knorf

Agreed on the quality of both Leibowitz and Steinberg. The letter includes the Mahler orchestration of the Ninth, which for me is not listenable, and sometimes in the balance the timpani are too recessed, but otherwise it's an excellent cycle.


----------



## Kiki

One set only? For me it is still the Emmanuel Krivine set. Recent sets from Ádám Fischer, Martin Haselböck and to a lesser extent Thomas Adès have all squeezed into the top end of my list of favourites but still have not dislodged the Krivine. If only Teodor Currentzis would record a complete cycle then it might become a new favourite.


----------



## CnC Bartok

Kiki said:


> One set only? For me it is still the Emmanuel Krivine set. Recent sets from Ádám Fischer, Martin Haselböck and to a lesser extent Thomas Adès have all squeezed into the top end of my list of favourites but still have not dislodged the Krivine. If only Teodor Currentzis would record a complete cycle then it might become a new favourite.


Anything specifically good/interesting/special about Ades' set? I'm somewhat intrigued...!


----------



## 13hm13

Sticking to the OP query ... I'd build a time machine and go back to era before recorded sound ... maybe back to LVB's own personal attendances ... just outta curiosity. See if any one conductor tackled 'em all.

This OP's query is too vague ... too many variables ... today was nice day here in Southern California ... went out for a bike ride ... and jammed to some selections from the Steinberg set. That did ... for the day, this day


----------



## Kiki

CnC Bartok said:


> Anything specifically good/interesting/special about Ades' set? I'm somewhat intrigued...!


#1-3 are excellent - crisp, clean and straight, also exciting and full of fun. #4-7 follow in the same mould, but IMO they tend to deteriorate in freshness, as they occasionally tend to sound unfittingly monotonous (i.e. the wrong side of being straight). #8 is good, almost on a par with #1-3, but perhaps just that little bit more straight-face than it needs to. #9 is sharp. There is obviously a game plan and the build-up play is excellent, but there are also spells of calamity, esp. in the finale, when permanent damages are inflicted. Overall it does not have as strong a character as the A. Fischer, nor the warmth and coziness of the Haselböck (though IMO the Haselböck sometimes becomes boring). Having said that, i think it is still a very good set.


----------



## CnC Bartok

Kiki said:


> #1-3 are excellent - crisp, clean and straight, also exciting and full of fun. #4-7 follow in the same mould, but IMO they tend to deteriorate in freshness, as they occasionally tend to sound unfittingly monotonous (i.e. the wrong side of being straight). #8 is good, almost on a par with #1-3, but perhaps just that little bit more straight-face than it needs to. #9 is sharp. There is obviously a game plan and the build-up play is excellent, but there are also spells of calamity, esp. in the finale, when permanent damages are inflicted. Overall it does not have as strong a character as the A. Fischer, nor the warmth and coziness of the Haselböck (though IMO the Haselböck sometimes becomes boring). Having said that, i think it is still a very good set.


Thanks for that, I might look into them, although I don't think I can really justify yet another Beethoven symphony set, 62 and counting!!. The last one I got was the Vanska Minnesota set, and despite the tide of negativity he seems to be facing, I really enjoyed those, although not a top choice. Adam Fischer is a different kettle of fish (!) so to speak. They are crisp and fresh throughout, and not completely straighjacketed by HIP edicts. Another really impressive HIP set is the de Vriend ones, but I'll stay happy with Krivine, who seems to have passed the test of time as far as I am concerned.
Strange, I remember absolutely loving the Arkiv Gardiner set, but so many seem to have supplanted him. Perhaps I should revisit them at some stage?


----------



## Merl

I've got the Adès but still not listened to it properly yet. An initial skip didn't reveal anyrhing startling. I'm with CnC on Fischer and De Vriend, two sets I love. The Fischer is so quirky but so much fun. I'm obsessed with chamber stuff at the mo so it'll be a while till I return to the Beethoven symphony sets (and I need 5 or 6 new ones to complete my next review and I've only got 3 to review at the moment).


----------



## Holden4th

fbjim said:


> an extremely underrated pair that I've fallen in love with over the last year or so is Leibowitz (this was famous once upon a time- it was the Readers Digest cycle, and a lot of people ordered records from them back then) and Steinberg (a great conductor who had the misfortune of being on Command Records for a good part of his career).
> 
> Leibowitz is an early example of more historically-inclined metronome fidelity, and Steinberg is in that sort of Bohm-ian "play it straight" mentality but both are really fine if you could only have one.


The Leibowitz was a revelation when I first heard it, though, like all other cycles, there is one weak symphony which is the Eighth but then again, most cycles don't do this justice. There is also a glaring mistake that to a certain extent ruins what could have been a fabulous Choral.

RL does all the hard work through the first three movements and the beginning of the fourth and then catastrophe! I don't know whose decision it was to cast Ludwig Weber as the baritone but it was a very poor decision. Maybe it was economics (this is Readers Digest after all) but he was well past his prime and his opening 'O Freunde' is a shocker. He's out of tune, his voice quavers in places and he's rhythmically inaccurate and their is a harshness of tone that male singers well past their use by date tend to display. Fortunately, the bass/baritone doesn't get too much solo work in this symphony and his fellow soloists serve to mitigate his performance by essentially drowning him out.

The pick of the symphonies in the set is the Eroica. It compares very favourably with both the 1949 Toscanini/NBCSO (they are very similar in approach) and my favourite which is Lenny with the New Yorkers.


----------



## bz3

I'm enjoying Wand lately. I'd still probably pick one of the Karajans or Bohm if I could only have one, followed soon by a favored HIP (probably Gardiner). Still, there are enough subtleties in Beethoven that I'm happy never to choose.


----------



## Kiki

CnC Bartok said:


> Thanks for that, I might look into them, although I don't think I can really justify yet another Beethoven symphony set, 62 and counting!!. The last one I got was the Vanska Minnesota set, and despite the tide of negativity he seems to be facing, I really enjoyed those, although not a top choice. Adam Fischer is a different kettle of fish (!) so to speak. They are crisp and fresh throughout, and not completely straighjacketed by HIP edicts. Another really impressive HIP set is the de Vriend ones, but I'll stay happy with Krivine, who seems to have passed the test of time as far as I am concerned.
> Strange, I remember absolutely loving the Arkiv Gardiner set, but so many seem to have supplanted him. Perhaps I should revisit them at some stage?


One thing I forgot to say - The Adès cycle comes in three volumes instead of a single set, with each volume containing 3 symphonies coupled with works written by Gerald Barry which are original, accessible and entertaining (though if one does not like it, it is called vulgar, so be warned). In particular, "Beethoven" for bass voice and large ensemble, is an absolutely crazy work. Have to be heard to be believed.

The Vriend set was an unexpected but nice discovery. (It was all Merl's fault of course! Who else could be the culprit?) The transparency that Vriend was able to achieve with modern instruments is remarkable. Like.

I usually avoid Vänskä... Got a couple of BBC CDs of him conducting the BBCSSO in #5, 6, 7 & 8. While #6, 7, & 8 are pleasant, #5 is woolly and terrible. Since you mentioned his Minnesota set, I checked out his Minnesota #5 on Spotify. Alright, it is way better; but I am afraid this Vänskä set will probably remain a lower priority in my to-do list.

I have always found Gardiner's Beethoven streamlined and polished. Confrontation and aggression take a back seat. Perhaps that is why some said that it is HIP for people who do not like HIP. Regardless of the HIP label, I think it is a very good set anyway.


----------



## fbjim

Holden4th said:


> The Leibowitz was a revelation when I first heard it, though, like all other cycles, there is one weak symphony which is the Eighth but then again, most cycles don't do this justice. There is also a glaring mistake that to a certain extent ruins what could have been a fabulous Choral.
> 
> RL does all the hard work through the first three movements and the beginning of the fourth and then catastrophe! I don't know whose decision it was to cast Ludwig Weber as the baritone but it was a very poor decision. Maybe it was economics (this is Readers Digest after all) but he was well past his prime and his opening 'O Freunde' is a shocker. He's out of tune, his voice quavers in places and he's rhythmically inaccurate and their is a harshness of tone that male singers well past their use by date tend to display. Fortunately, the bass/baritone doesn't get too much solo work in this symphony and his fellow soloists serve to mitigate his performance by essentially drowning him out.
> 
> The pick of the symphonies in the set is the Eroica. It compares very favourably with both the 1949 Toscanini/NBCSO (they are very similar in approach) and my favourite which is Lenny with the New Yorkers.


The Readers Digest recordings were supervised by RCA, I believe- they sound as good as any RCA record of the period. The vocals in that 9th are poor but honestly a lot of 9ths have poor vocals because the 9th is very, very difficult to sing*. Even the well-liked Wand recording suffers here.

I don't know if people have ever rated 9ths by the quality of the soloist parts, but the Fricsay version with DFD as baritone is one of the few ones that I think nails it (even if people don't like DFD much these days). Most recordings from the last few decades get it reasonably well too.

*I think this is why it was more common to dislike the 9th finale before the recording era- if you could hear the 9th Symphony once every few years and the soloists would likely sound bad, would you consider the finale a masterpiece?


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## Neo Romanza

It's a toss-up between Szell and one of Karajan's. To be honest, I don't listen Beethoven too much, although I do like much of his music.


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## Nipper

I own 35 cycles, and have listened to another 7 or 8 now that I have lossless streaming, with another handful in the on-deck playlist. There are just so many excellent recordings to choose from.

My first cycle many years ago was Karajan '77. I recently picked up the remastered in Atmos Blu-Ray, and it is wonderful. A very consistent cycle. His '63 cycle on Blu-Ray also sounds great with some higher peaks, but also a misfire on the Pastoral.

My favorite recommendation is probably *Blomstedt* with the *Staatskapelle Dresden*. I love the sound of that orchestra, it is consistently great, and it's got a great Ninth. There are many great cycles that fall short in that final symphony. And this set can usually be easily acquired at a low price. I think it's a great "starter" cycle.

Günter Wand's cycle with the NDRSO is perhaps the most consistently great cycle. I just feel a tiny bit let down by the soloists in the Ninth.

Jochum's LSO cycle is irresistible in the _Icon_ box set along with his excellent Brahms and Bruckner cycles, plus a few other goodies.

Szell's Cleveland cycle is precise and consistent, always a great listen. Kletzki with the Czech Phil is a great dark-horse cycle. And Barenboim's recordings with the Staatskapelle Berlin is a great "modern" cycle, as is Haitink's LSO cycle.


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## Holden4th

fbjim said:


> The Readers Digest recordings were supervised by RCA, I believe- they sound as good as any RCA record of the period. The vocals in that 9th are poor but honestly a lot of 9ths have poor vocals because the 9th is very, very difficult to sing*. Even the well-liked Wand recording suffers here.
> 
> *I don't know if people have ever rated 9ths by the quality of the soloist parts, but the Fricsay version with DFD as baritone is one of the few ones that I think nails it (even if people don't like DFD much these days). Most recordings from the last few decades get it reasonably well too. *
> 
> *I think this is why it was more common to dislike the 9th finale before the recording era- if you could hear the 9th Symphony once every few years and the soloists would likely sound bad, would you consider the finale a masterpiece?


The Fricsay tops my list as well and the singing is outstanding from both the soloists and the choir. The way this was written and with today's modern instruments voices the choral parts can sound very congested (HvKs is a glaring example with his wall of sound). The clarity that Fricsay achieves is remarkable for a modern ensemble. Then again he was a very skilled conductor of both opera and choral works. Just listen to either of his Verdi Requiems.


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