# Do You Enjoy Very Abstract Stage Productions?



## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

The very abstract avant-garde stage productions that leave little resemblance to the plot.

The costumes that leave very little resemblance to the action and emotion on the stage.

The pseudo-psychological stage director-audience analysis that leave "suppose" to ask questions about you the audience.

A hint of modern day social-political matters that link nothing with the plot.

Do you enjoy opera stage productions that exhibit such qualities?


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

I voted "No, I dislike every bit of it".

If it's Wagner's Parsifal about knights and magic, then let it be, no need to New York alley way with prostitutes and dumpster trucks. Pure and simple.


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## Xenakiboy (May 8, 2016)

......(Ignore this)


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

I would be glad to give a well done updated production executed by a thinking director a chance -- (I have seen two that were acceptable: the Rat Pack _Rigoletto_ and the "clock" driven _La Traviata_ with Poplavsky) -- but unfortunately 90% really are executed by hubristic ego trippers who disregard the most important things, the music and the singers, and instead distract their audiences by imbuing them with all kinds of images, sexual innuendo and meanings not written into the script. (Can you say Mary Zimmerman's _La Sonnambula_ and Bieito's _Un Ballo in Maschera_ for starters?)

I believe in respecting the works of the original composers and librettists.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

ArtMusic said:


> I voted "No, I dislike every bit of it".
> 
> If it's Wagner's Parsifal about knights and magic, then let it be, no need to New York alley way with prostitutes and dumpster trucks. Pure and simple.


Uh, how is that abstract? It seems like you're just talking about any kind of Regie production. Some of them are good, most are mediocre to bad.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

One benefit is that singers are less likely to stumble on abstract scenery.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> Uh, how is that abstract? It seems like you're just talking about any kind of Regie production. Some of them are good, most are mediocre to bad.


What do you mean? We know what Parsifal is about, as would Wagner himself when he staged his own. But one set in a street alley way with prostitutes and dumpster truck etc. serves zero purpose. This is simple.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

_No, I dislike every bit of it_, short and simple.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Pugg said:


> _No, I dislike every bit of it_, short and simple.


^this. if I wanted to see something hipster, I would go to a modern art museum, a coffee shop or an indie concert, not somewhere where the art is supposed to be classy and elegant and the vestium operandi is a suit or dress.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

ArtMusic said:


> What do you mean? We know what Parsifal is about, as would Wagner himself when he staged his own. But one set in a street alley way with prostitutes and dumpster truck etc. serves zero purpose. This is simple.


But setting Parsifal in a different time and location is not the same as an abstract production, let alone a "very abstract" production. I have no clue what you mean by the term abstract, because it has little if anything to do with the word's meaning in English dictionaries.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> But setting Parsifal in a different time and location is not the same as an abstract production, let alone a "very abstract" production. I have no clue what you mean by the term abstract, because it has little if anything to do with the word's meaning in English dictionaries.


My Parsifal example was perfectly clear and I have no doubt Wagner would back off in similar disgust if he ever saw an alley way Parsifal. What does that have to do with magical knights and honor? Well, nothing really, other than some fanciful statement by the stage director in poor taste.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Pugg said:


> _No, I dislike every bit of it_, short and simple.


Agree, it's an utter disgrace of the highest classical music art form to let the staging spoil it. But luckily we can close our eyes and let the ears wonder in joy.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

As Mahlerian has said, you are asking a question about "abstract" productions, and then describing productions which are not abstract but simply unfaithful to the original intent of the works. An abstract production, such as those produced by Wieland Wagner at Bayreuth in the '50s and '60s, may be quite faithful to the work; it merely strips down or eliminates many traditional details from the stage picture, just as an abstract painting eliminates details of visual reality. You mention a production of _Parsifal_ which I've seen on YouTube; it isn't abstract, but rather a reinterpretation - perfectly concrete in its details, but superimposing on the work ideas alien to it, and not what Wagner asked for at all. Wieland Wagner's genuinely abstract _Parsifal_ was extremely austere visually but quite faithful to the meaning of the original.

What you're really asking about is not abstract productions but regietheater, of which there's been quite a lot of discussion here on opera threads.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

None of the above.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

"What you're really asking about is not abstract productions but regietheater, of which there's been quite a lot of discussion here on opera threads."

In that case, knock off my examples above, which are clearly regie examples. I am still not sure which operas are considered "abstract". I'd welcome a few examples so I can get an idea about the difference between abstract and a Hans Neuenfels Rat infested _Lohengrin_.
Maybe I voted wrong. Maybe I actually like abstract -- anything that doesn't disrupt the flow of the music or the singers and stays true to the composer's intent.
Wish I knew what some of those abstract operas you were referring to.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

nina foresti said:


> I am still not sure which operas are considered "abstract". I'd welcome a few examples...


Robert Wilson tends to do abstract stagings. This excerpt suggests his La Traviata is no different.






That being said, as Woodduck points out, abstract productions are not merely a product of recent times.


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

Blancrocher said:


> One benefit is that singers are less likely to stumble on abstract scenery.


I tend to stumble on abstractions quite a lot.


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## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

You can't always draw the line between abstract productions and regietheater. I would say that the most abstract performance is a concert version of an opera. The more staging, costumes and acting are added the more it becomes either a regietheater version or a traditional version.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

I voted before I read the original post, and based my vote on the wording of the poll. I have seen some very moving abstract stagings, thinking of productions by Robert Wilson and Christopher Loy.



ArtMusic said:


> The very abstract avant-garde stage productions that leave little resemblance to the plot.
> 
> The costumes that leave very little resemblance to the action and emotion on the stage.
> 
> ...


This is an entirely different question, and present a false choice, offering up ridiculous strawmen. This is the parody of what is called a regietheater production.

If I accept your terms the best I can make sense of what is written here, then no, I do not like "abstract" productions. But I cannot think of how it applies to the real world, to any real opera productions, so in general use I do not accept your terms.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

interestedin said:


> You can't always draw the line between abstract productions and regietheater. I would say that the most abstract performance is a concert version of an opera. The more staging, costumes and acting are added the more it becomes either a regietheater version or a traditional version.


Many abstract productions are Regietheater, but many Regie productions are not at all abstract, so it's a completely meaningless dichotomy.


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

I like the above discussion about the distinction between abstract and regie very much. Let us take _Pelleas et Melisande_ as an example:
















The first one is a disgusting abstract product. The second is a very fine abstract product. The third is a cheap regie.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> As Mahlerian has said, you are asking a question about "abstract" productions, and then describing productions which are not abstract but simply unfaithful to the original intent of the works. An abstract production, such as those produced by Wieland Wagner at Bayreuth in the '50s and '60s, may be quite faithful to the work; it merely strips down or eliminates many traditional details from the stage picture, just as an abstract painting eliminates details of visual reality. You mention a production of _Parsifal_ which I've seen on YouTube; it isn't abstract, but rather a reinterpretation - perfectly concrete in its details, but superimposing on the work ideas alien to it, and not what Wagner asked for at all. *Wieland Wagner's genuinely abstract Parsifal was extremely austere visually but quite faithful to the meaning of the original.
> 
> *What you're really asking about is not abstract productions but regietheater, of which there's been quite a lot of discussion here on opera threads.


A good reference Duck to demonstrate the benefits of well done abstract productions

Weiland Wagner's "new Bayreuth" productions are very successful abstract productions which not only reduce and focus visual detail but also purposely eliminate any german national reference, a universal timeless race of mankind performs for us....

Check the traditional pre-war Parsifal staging with the 1951 "new Bayreuth" abstract version, the powerful simplified visuals allow the music and singing to deliver the glorious themes and free our imagination to take flight..........


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

silentio said:


> The first one is a disgusting abstract product. The second is a very fine abstract product. The third is a cheap regie.


I really loved the first production, by Robert Wilson (though I saw it as filmed in Paris). I have not seen either the Lenhoff from Essen or the Tcherniakov from Zürich (and at first I mistook it for an older production by Bechtolf, also seen in Zürich), but both look fascinating and well-conceived.


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

I don't like changing the time periods and costumes of operas and things like that for the most part. If the opera is set in a medieval time, than I want it to look like a medieval time and not the 1920's. If it's not really specified then sure you can play around with it using some tasteful choices. I mind modern effects. If you want to have modern pyrotechnics with flames shooting out of the stage when Don Giovanni is heading to hell, than that's ok with me.

I'd like to see more operas made in film. I'd really like to see an opera like The Ring made into a Lord Of The Rings style big budget film. See Siegfried slay a realistic looking Dragon, etc. but that will probably never happen because there's no money in it.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

GreenMamba said:


> Robert Wilson tends to do abstract stagings. This excerpt suggests his La Traviata is no different.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well if that is what is meant by abstract, (what I tend to call minimalist), is not as objectionable to me as Eurotrash or politely said, "Regie" but most of Robert Wilson's stuff (_Lohengrin_ is a perfect example) is like watching puppets or mannequins -- with hardly ever any eye contact and declaring our undying love from one end of the stage to your lover at the other end while staring into space. 
Singers have complained of pains and stiff muscles from having to stand like statues for many minutes at a time -- painful and cruel if you ask me simply to assuage the egos of the directors who are more interested in their particular interpretations than the music or singers.
I like creative and different but not at the expense of the original concept.
So maybe there is an abstract out there I have seen that I enjoyed, but frankly, I cannot think of one at this moment.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

"Abstract" staging of opera dates back to the 1920s, when Adolphe Appia, inspired by the operas of Wagner, theorized extensively about the use of starkly simple 3-dimensional sets (as opposed to painted backdrops) and the expressive use of light. He was able to get a few of his ideas realized onstage. Here are some examples of his work:

https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs...-004&fr2=piv-web&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-004

Appia's contribution to stagecraft makes him a seminal figure in the history of theater. Wieland Wagner's Bayreuth owed much to Appia's vision.


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## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

realdealblues said:


> I'd like to see more operas made in film. I'd really like to see an opera like The Ring made into a Lord Of The Rings style big budget film. See Siegfried slay a realistic looking Dragon, etc. but that will probably never happen because there's no money in it.


If it's your first Ring it's surely nice to see a dragon. You've never 'felt' the story with a dragon before. But if you've heard several Rings with several dragons and swords (even if only in your head) you might be grateful for something new that is not just a bigger dragon or a dragon with a different skin color.


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## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

But speaking of dragons and the Ring...they are a perfect example for why we need abstract productions.

The 2012 MET Ring was a semi-abstract Ring and its worst moments were those which were not abstract, but which were showing puppet horses and dragons instead of just shadows and imagination. This was just laughable, not magic:


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

mountmccabe said:


> I voted before I read the original post, and based my vote on the wording of the poll. I have seen some very moving abstract stagings, thinking of productions by Robert Wilson and Christopher Loy.
> 
> This is an entirely different question, and present a false choice, offering up ridiculous strawmen. This is the parody of what is called a regietheater production.
> 
> If I accept your terms the best I can make sense of what is written here, then no, I do not like "abstract" productions. But I cannot think of how it applies to the real world, to any real opera productions, so in general use I do not accept your terms.


I do not like "abstract" productions either. So we have much in common then. These types of productions fail miserably to please me.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

nina foresti said:


> Well if that is what is meant by abstract, (what I tend to call minimalist), is not as objectionable to me as Eurotrash or politely said, "Regie" but most of Robert Wilson's stuff (_Lohengrin_ is a perfect example) is like watching puppets or mannequins -- with hardly ever any eye contact and declaring our undying love from one end of the stage to your lover at the other end while staring into space.


The original writer of Pelleas et Melisande, Maeterlinck, said that he envisioned puppets rather than people carrying out his highly symbolic plays.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> The original writer of Pelleas et Melisande, Maeterlinck, said that he envisioned puppets rather than people carrying out his highly symbolic plays.


In this example, symbolism is essential as it is the entire story.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

I raid Gallica for pictures of 19th century opera productions. I voted "No, I dislike every bit of it." Go figure.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

The option I'd vote for, if it were there in the poll, would be "Yes, if it works". I wouldn't discount any production without actually experiencing it - and that's true whether we're talking about abstract, _regie_ or traditional stagings. I've seen examples of each that worked really well, and others not so well.


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> The option I'd vote for, if it were there in the poll, would be "Yes, if it works". I wouldn't discount any production without actually experiencing it - and that's true whether we're talking about abstract, _regie_ or traditional stagings. I've seen examples of each that worked really well, and others not so well.


Well put.

(+ 2 )


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

Come to think of it, Goran Jarvefelt's (umlaut) Mozarts, set in wooden boxes, and Jean-Pierre Ponnelle's Tristan were quite abstract - but worked. Jarvefelt's stagings focused on the singers and the plot - very clean.

Although I look at the original post:

The very abstract avant-garde stage productions that leave little resemblance to the plot.

The costumes that leave very little resemblance to the action and emotion on the stage.

The pseudo-psychological stage director-audience analysis that leave "suppose" to ask questions about you the audience.

A hint of modern day social-political matters that link nothing with the plot.

No, I detest Regie.


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

As I have said on previous threads, there are good modern (presuming you this is what you mean by abstract and bad ones. There are also good traditional productions as well as bad ones. Funnily enough a lot of most recent great operatic productions have been of Parsifal, such as Herheim's at Bayreuth, Lehnhoff's at the ENO and Guth's which was originally in Zurich. The first Parsifal I saw on DVD was by Schenck and it nearly put me off the work. I do think the modern approach works better in German opera generally such as Guth's production of Die Frau ohne Schatten and Lehnhoff's brilliant Elektra from Salzburg and Tristan at Glyndebourne .

That said, if I was a director I wouldn't give Tosca a futuristic slant as due to the restrictive times in the libretto. So in my view there is no right or wrong.


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

As stated above I'm very much in the "it all depends on the quality of each production" camp. Nice to see a few others daring to stand up and say it.

Sadly it does seem to me that those with a fixed opinion of what a tradtional production is, are very much the loudest and most vocal of complainers. Their protests seem to be despite the numbers attending opera all over Europe. In America where productions tend to be more traditional, tickets sales don't seem to be any stronger.

So who's for joining me? The next BORING or HACKNEYED traditonal production we attend, I'll shout out some inane comment when someone is singing softly. Then should the production team dare to show their face at curtain time, we'll all boo and then afterwards loudly boring everyone on the train home. Come on, stand up and be counted, after all its the new traditional Opera behaviour. 


(Tongue partly in cheek)


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Belowpar said:


> Sadly it does seem to me that those with a fixed opinion of what a tradtional production is, are very much the loudest and most vocal of complainers. Their protests seem to be despite the numbers attending opera all over Europe. In America where productions tend to be more traditional, tickets sales don't seem to be any stronger.


The reason why people go and see non traditional productions is because there is nothing else to see. The music is the same and so is the plot.


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