# Do any of you compose on the iOS platform?



## IpadComposer

Hi, I am new here. I am interested in promoting the idea of composing classical music on the iPad.
I recently discovered this marvelous medium. It has pros and cons like anything else. The biggest advantage for young composers is the affordability. For a few hundred dollars you can get yourself a used iPad, some marvelous acoustic apps, a choice of excellent Daws and all the help in learning how to use it on the audiob.us forum, the foremost and best respected iOS forum. The instruments do not compare to Kontakt's acoustic libraries, of course ( at least not yet), though some, like the Ravenscroft 275 piano ( cost $36!) are as good as any desktop plugins. An excellent DAW costs $50 (Cubasis, or the more complicated Auria Pro). 

And there is the fun factor. Something about making music on an iPad is just exhilarating ( at least for me). I am basically a jazz musician, but in fifty hours I improvised, orchestrated and recorded a symphonic piece of four movements. I will post it if someone would explain how to do it. I know the criticism will be withering, ( I have been reading threads today.) I am not a classical composer and do not claim to be, but it would be worth it if I can introduce some fledgling composers to this affordable and productive platform. If anyone is interested I would be happy to explain more about it. Best!


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## Phil loves classical

I wanted to find a good app om ipad before and tried out one free app which produced bad looking scores and couldn't save without paying. I'm happy with Musescore of Lilypond on my laptop. Touching a screen is less accurate than moving and clicking a mouse.


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## Guest

No, absolutely not. So far I haven't found anything that suits me better than pencil and paper. For engraving, I think it would be useful to see something like an iOS/Android version of LilyPond or SCORE, but not for composition itself. As soon as there is a software for anything, it will have its limitations and that causes some interesting problems when it comes to creativity. One of my biggest problems from using an object-based software such as Sibelius was that I sometimes got into a bad habit of composing music I knew how to engrave easily on the computer, rather than really compose the things I want to compose. Falling into these compromises affected me quite negatively because the only other solution was to really work _against_ the software, putting a lot of effort into making it do what I want it to do. Not my idea of a good time. Unfortunately it seems like most scorewriters are moving towards the WYSIWYG object-based model (Finale, Sibelius, Dorico, MuseScore etc), which hinders rather than helps the engraving process, although it's easy to compose with them if one chooses to limit oneself to writing music that is easy to write on them.

Having a DAW on an iPad sounds cool though (it would still be limited, I guess!), but I probably wouldn't use it because I prefer the electronic music studio I have access to at uni...................


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## Fredx2098

Pencil and paper is definitely the best way to get your real ideas down, at least when writing in a modern way. Perhaps for more normal tonal music it wouldn't be so limiting. It's important not to use computer programs/apps as a crutch to improve your actual composition skills.


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## Phil loves classical

I've found musescore real good for experimenting. I used to write down something in my head, but found experimenting and not having everything pre-thought, but having the musjc evolve and stuff to be more interesting by taking more risks.


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## Sekhar

IMO you need to separate the process of writing down the music that's in your mind and the DAW part of arranging, virtual instruments, etc. because the DAW stuff is easy once you have the creative elements in place. I've been researching on this myself to prep for the fall semester, and I've seen the below basic approaches to putting your thoughts down:


 Write down on manuscript paper and then enter it later using one of the below processes. People new to editing music on computers will find this a more creative experience (kind of like writing text on paper and then entering into a text editor, as some people still do). The creative part doesn't need a computer, you can do it anywhere, and you don't get help from the computer (which surprisingly is a good thing). But obviously this is not efficient at all as you still need to enter the darned thing, so unless you are the old school paper/pencil kind, it's not a good option IMO because you're just postponing the issue.
 Use an entry mechanism that feels like writing on paper, except you're entering the music at the same time. This sounds really exciting because you basically skip the tedious second step above. Unfortunately, this is kind of error prone at this point, though maturing, like speech recognition. On iPad, I've found *NotateMe*, with a free version for you to try out. There is also *StaffPad* that seems better, but needing special laptops like Microsoft Surface Pro, etc. and not perfect either - check it out though, there are some good videos on YouTube from real users.
 Entry through MIDI keyboard. This seems to be the most efficient and possibly the most popular way to enter your thoughts. If playing a keyboard comes as naturally to you as writing music on paper, as it does for many folks, this would be a great approach. And it works well with a traditional tool like Finale or Sibelius. Unfortunately, you will need to have the keyboard next to your computer, which is not always possible/desirable. Also, not everyone gets their creative juices flowing with a keyboard (I certainly don't, as as I do with paper/pencil).
 Enter through regular computer keyboard, like you're typing text. I was really put off by this initially, but am actually finding this to be surprisingly efficient and creative. I suggest you try it for a few days before giving up as it takes a little bit of getting used to. My current approach is that I "hear" my music in my head, think of it in solfege, and type the solfege on the (computer) keyboard while doing the translation mentally to notes (C#, G, Ab, etc. depending on the key). I'm finding that it's actually not that bad once you get a hang of it, though I only just started on this approach.
 Finally, there is the virtual keyboard entry, where you see the keyboard on the screen and you punch in the notes. Or just clicking the notes using your mouse/pen. IMO these are neither creative nor inefficient, so they give the worst of both. But then may be you might prefer those methods.

I'm interested in other thoughts you guys might have, as I'm furiously trying to find what works best for my situation.


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## E Cristobal Poveda

IpadComposer said:


> Hi, I am new here. I am interested in promoting the idea of composing classical music on the iPad.
> I recently discovered this marvelous medium. It has pros and cons like anything else. The biggest advantage for young composers is the affordability. For a few hundred dollars you can get yourself a used iPad, some marvelous acoustic apps, a choice of excellent Daws and all the help in learning how to use it on the audiob.us forum, the foremost and best respected iOS forum. The instruments do not compare to Kontakt's acoustic libraries, of course ( at least not yet), though some, like the Ravenscroft 275 piano ( cost $36!) are as good as any desktop plugins. An excellent DAW costs $50 (Cubasis, or the more complicated Auria Pro).
> 
> And there is the fun factor. Something about making music on an iPad is just exhilarating ( at least for me). I am basically a jazz musician, but in fifty hours I improvised, orchestrated and recorded a symphonic piece of four movements. I will post it if someone would explain how to do it. I know the criticism will be withering, ( I have been reading threads today.) I am not a classical composer and do not claim to be, but it would be worth it if I can introduce some fledgling composers to this affordable and productive platform. If anyone is interested I would be happy to explain more about it. Best!


"Affordable"
"Hundreds of dollars"

I picked up a laptop for 200 and Musescore for free and that's really all I need.


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## E Cristobal Poveda

shirime said:


> No, absolutely not. So far I haven't found anything that suits me better than pencil and paper. For engraving, I think it would be useful to see something like an iOS/Android version of LilyPond or SCORE, but not for composition itself. As soon as there is a software for anything, it will have its limitations and that causes some interesting problems when it comes to creativity. One of my biggest problems from using an object-based software such as Sibelius was that I sometimes got into a bad habit of composing music I knew how to engrave easily on the computer, rather than really compose the things I want to compose. Falling into these compromises affected me quite negatively because the only other solution was to really work _against_ the software, putting a lot of effort into making it do what I want it to do. Not my idea of a good time. Unfortunately it seems like most scorewriters are moving towards the WYSIWYG object-based model (Finale, Sibelius, Dorico, MuseScore etc), which hinders rather than helps the engraving process, although it's easy to compose with them if one chooses to limit oneself to writing music that is easy to write on them.
> 
> Having a DAW on an iPad sounds cool though (it would still be limited, I guess!), but I probably wouldn't use it because I prefer the electronic music studio I have access to at uni...................


I agree with this as well. The only real use for digital media is to create neat and presentable scores.
Otherwise, writing your music out on paper is infinitely better.


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## pkoi

I wouldn't be so absolute about which way of composing your music is best. Paper and pen works for something and DAW can be absolutely faster and easier in another. Whatever works for you. I mostly write my concert pieces down to paper and use engraving software for finalising the score. However, many times I might just write down to paper the initial ideas, motives, chords, rhythmic patterns and develop the music in Sibelius. 

I compose music for commercials, movies and games for a living and in that field, unless you hire players to play your stuff, you mostly compose, record & produce the music yourself. In that environment I always work with the DAW straight away and do not write scores, mostly because of very fast deadlines. Also, the midi Piano roll is very handy on creating what ever you want in an equal temperament world and you can easily transform your ideas to sheet music notation by exporting the midi to the engraving software.

What I'm trying to say is that the methods you use to achieve what you want or need do not matter much. What matters is that you have to know what you are doing. When you know that, you can be effective in any environment.


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## IpadComposer

E Cristobal Poveda said:


> I agree with this as well. The only real use for digital media is to create neat and presentable scores.
> Otherwise, writing your music out on paper is infinitely better.


But what about hearing that score played?


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## IpadComposer

E Cristobal Poveda said:


> "Affordable"
> "Hundreds of dollars"
> 
> I picked up a laptop for 200 and Musescore for free and that's really all I need.


I meant a few hundred dollars to record and produce music at a more finished level.


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## IpadComposer

pkoi said:


> I wouldn't be so absolute about which way of composing your music is best. Paper and pen works for something and DAW can be absolutely faster and easier in another. Whatever works for you. I mostly write my concert pieces down to paper and use engraving software for finalising the score. However, many times I might just write down to paper the initial ideas, motives, chords, rhythmic patterns and develop the music in Sibelius.
> 
> I compose music for commercials, movies and games for a living and in that field, unless you hire players to play your stuff, you mostly compose, record & produce the music yourself. In that environment I always work with the DAW straight away and do not write scores, mostly because of very fast deadlines. Also, the midi Piano roll is very handy on creating what ever you want in an equal temperament world and you can easily transform your ideas to sheet music notation by exporting the midi to the engraving software.
> 
> What I'm trying to say is that the methods you use to achieve what you want or need do not matter much. What matters is that you have to know what you are doing. When you know that, you can be effective in any environment.


I agree with this. A great explanation from someone who makes a living as a composer. A composer today has a bigger job. These tools expand the knowledge of the art of recording. Should a serious composer be aware and at least conversant in these skills, something much more difficult to obtain for artists with small resources in the past but now available for people outside of a university environment?


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## Sekhar

IpadComposer said:


> I agree with this. A great explanation from someone who makes a living as a composer. A composer today has a bigger job. These tools expand the knowledge of the art of recording. Should a serious composer be aware and at least conversant in these skills, something much more difficult to obtai,n for artists with small resources in the past but now available for people outside of a university environment?


The problem is that answers like "it depends," "use what works for you," "they're all good," etc. are academic/tautological and I daresay basically cop-outs. Of course, every situation is different, and obviously it always depends on the situation, like pretty much everything in life. What would help here are specific examples of what you're using with clear pros/cons so readers can decide if that method works for them or at least give new ideas.


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## IpadComposer

Sekhar said:


> The problem is that answers like "it depends," "use what works for you," "they're all good," etc. are academic/tautological and I daresay basically cop-outs. Of course, every situation is different, and obviously it always depends on the situation, like pretty much everything in life. What would help here are specific examples of what you're using with clear pros/cons so readers can decide if that method works for them or at least give new ideas.


I did not say anything along the lines of "it depends". I am only suggesting the iOS platform as an affordable, portable and very interesting way to realize many different types of music including "classical".


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## Sekhar

IpadComposer said:


> I did not say anything along the lines of "it depends". I am only suggesting the iOS platform as an affordable, portable and very interesting way to realize many different types of music including "classical".


No, you didn't...I was commenting on your agreeing with pkoi's response, which I felt was in part generic like I pointed out (though some of what he said was helpful). Sorry about the confusion. In fact, you were quite specific in your original post, thanks for that.

My frustration with generic responses is that they end the conversation, as if they're conclusive "that's life, move on" kind of last words. I see it on other forums too, like photography. E.g., the moment you ask for say a better lens, someone will shut it down with "Equipment doesn't matter, it's the photographer," which drives me nuts. And these are the folks who always use minimum $10K gear for themselves.


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## E Cristobal Poveda

IpadComposer said:


> But what about hearing that score played?


Isn't a problem for me, but I suppose most don't have an orchestra at their disposal.


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## Sekhar

E Cristobal Poveda said:


> Isn't a problem for me, but I suppose most don't have an orchestra at their disposal.


Wait, so they just take your hand-written score and copy into parts on their own? Wouldn't you need to enter into a notation program to print out the parts? I'm confused.


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## IpadComposer

Sekhar said:


> No, you didn't...I was commenting on your agreeing with pkoi's response, which I felt was in part generic like I pointed out (though some of what he said was helpful). Sorry about the confusion. In fact, you were quite specific in your original post, thanks for that.
> 
> My frustration with generic responses is that they end the conversation, as if they're conclusive "that's life, move on" kind of last words. I see it on other forums too, like photography. E.g., the moment you ask for say a better lens, someone will shut it down with "Equipment doesn't matter, it's the photographer," which drives me nuts. And these are the folks who always use minimum $10K gear for themselves.


Okay, that is very reasoned thinking. You asked for an example with pros and cons. I would like to oblige you since you seem to be very fair minded. This is the fourth movement of a "Synthony" I improvised, arranged, orchestrated and recorded in fifty hours using an iPad4, Cubasis (based on Cubase) recording app ($50) using various instrument and effects apps and a pretty mediocre Casio keyboard. Please be aware I am an iconoclast. I am primarily a jazz pianist, I make no claim to being a "serious" composer and I am demonstrating this for the technical aspects of composing and recording on the iOS platform, not for a critique on my abilities as a "composer". Yes, I sat down and played this composition straight out on the keyboard with no preconceived notion ( though I do quote LVB's 7th, 2nd movement for a couple of measures. I am sure you will spot it). If you want to say something nice about it I am all ears. I may post the entire 24 minute work once I am convinced that I will not be pilloried for the abundance of rules I knowingly choose to break ( so far I am not convinced the bias against computer generated "classical" music, especially on an iPad I have encountered on many threads could not be avoided by the stalwarts that hold forth here. That I begin a symphonic form with a slow movement, ignore the requirement of a sonata form, etc. will not get me much applause either, I suspect!

But I am willing to take some shots to recommend iOS music making to young composers for the following (pro) reasons:
1/ affordability. Some have already taken issue with this on this forum. "I can get a used PC and free notation software for $200.
To which I say, go right ahead. You always get what you pay for.. A used iPad 4 will cost $150 ( plus a $50 Apple camera connection dongle to connect the iPad and midi keyboard), a used Casio hammer action Privia keyboard $250, all the apps you need for decent instruments and recording $250 if you have good advice on what to get ( much less if you go for free sound fonts, of which there are many and a $10 recording app). If you have an iPad and an ok midi keyboard with/ or have outboard speakers you are in the game for $300 or significantly less.
2/ portability. You can input notes directly on most apps directly on the iPad. All DAW sequencers on iOS have drop down keyboards. With a pair of earbuds you can work on your compositions anywhere, anytime.
3/IOS is just coming into its own with great improvements in connectivity, stability, FX, high quality instruments, sophisticated DAWs ( recording studios) and availability of help at the audiobus.us forum. The main iOS forum and very open contributors who welcome beginners. No question is too basic.
4/workflow is vastly improved with touch and go recording. No more mouse.
5/it is very hip. iOS technology appeals to young people and gaining in credibility as more and more fully mastered albums are released on the platform.
6/ quick learning curve. A computer literate teenager can be recording in hours.

Cons:
1/ desktop has more RAM and ROM. Until heat dissipation issues are addressed the memory capacity is limited on tablets.
2/ instruments are still more realistic on desktop because of larger sample sizes and extensive articulated orchestral instruments available. However, they are a lot more expensive. A lot!
3/ bias of codgers against something new ( I am 70 and a codger myself)
4/ software has had many years lead on desktop compared to iOS, is more stable and often has more depth for a professional engineer. But I am addressing young composers who want an affordable, fun platform that is cutting edge technology.

I hope you find the above a fair sorting of pluses and minuses, Sephardic. Here is an example. This movement was completed in approx. 15 hours "composing" to "completion". A perfectionist who is not improvising the material on the spot would, naturally, take much more time. PLEASE listen with headphones or good monitors.


__
https://soundcloud.com/michael-levy-387395070%2Fludwig-i-love-you


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## IpadComposer

E Cristobal Poveda said:


> Isn't a problem for me, but I suppose most don't have an orchestra at their disposal.


Very decent of you to allow that most young composers do not have the privileges you have undoubtedly earned.


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## Guest

I have already responded to this thread, but after thinking about it more it really comes down to the kind of composition that someone is interested in doing. As far as I can tell, an iPad does not have adequate connectivity to a lot of other kinds of hardware that would be useful in for studio composition, especially when it comes to connecting microphones and using analogue equipment. If a composer who is only just starting out with an interest in studio composition, particularly when it comes to writing commercial music, writing music for video games and other things like that, an iPad will be able to introduce someone to composing with a DAW but with severe limitations that could set someone's knowledge of the software back when transferring to an actual studio context. Keyboard shortcuts, connecting various equipment, working with microphones and speakers and similar skills are just as important as having a good knowledge of the software. Of course, once someone is actually in the studio, they will be working with expensive equipment anyway; thankfully, there are courses and institutions that provide the hands on experience needed, people can apply for internships with professionals, people can get closer to the goal of being a composer in that kind of studio in that way over time whilst accumulating the knowledge that will be of most use to them.

For people who only wish to compose as a hobby, iPads, as much as or probably more than laptops and other easily available technology, are easy to use but have limitations that people simply have to live with. People I know who enjoy composing using software like Cubase as a hobby are content with the sampled sounds they can get as far as I am aware, and none of them use iPads due to the impracticality of its limitations versus what they already have access to on their computers. And I am pretty sure many people at some point go out to get a laptop or desktop computer.


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## IpadComposer

shirime said:


> I have already responded to this thread, but after thinking about it more it really comes down to the kind of composition that someone is interested in doing. As far as I can tell, an iPad does not have adequate connectivity to a lot of other kinds of hardware that would be useful in for studio composition, especially when it comes to connecting microphones and using analogue equipment. If a composer who is only just starting out with an interest in studio composition, particularly when it comes to writing commercial music, writing music for video games and other things like that, an iPad will be able to introduce someone to composing with a DAW but with severe limitations that could set someone's knowledge of the software back when transferring to an actual studio context. Keyboard shortcuts, connecting various equipment, working with microphones and speakers and similar skills are just as important as having a good knowledge of the software. Of course, once someone is actually in the studio, they will be working with expensive equipment anyway; thankfully, there are courses and institutions that provide the hands on experience needed, people can apply for internships with professionals, people can get closer to the goal of being a composer in that kind of studio in that way over time whilst accumulating the knowledge that will be of most use to them.
> 
> For people who only wish to compose as a hobby, iPads, as much as or probably more than laptops and other easily available technology, are easy to use but have limitations that people simply have to live with. People I know who enjoy composing using software like Cubase as a hobby are content with the sampled sounds they can get as far as I am aware, and none of them use iPads due to the impracticality of its limitations versus what they already have access to on their computers. And I am pretty sure many people at some point go out to get a laptop or desktop computer.


Thanks for your considered response, Shirime ( not the fake fish, I hope!) all very valid concerns, but also some misconceptions I hope I can address. Let me say first that it is probably unlikely ( though possible) that the iPad will supplant the desktop as the gold standard if you don't have your own orchestra or a recording contract. Until the heat dissipation issue is solved the tablet will not hold enough RAM and ROM to really do it to the highest standard. However, things change rapidly in the world of technology. And desktop DAWs were rejected at the outset as limited and inferior to a studio setting. But the software and libraries steadily improve until now you have a desktop instrument like the Joshua Bell violin which cuts the difference between acoustic and virtual even closer, though some will never accept that an android will one day claim "human" rights. The development of MPEs is transforming the way music is made with hardware like the Roli Seaboard which breaks the bounds of the conventional, perhaps behind the times in terms of musical evolution, keyboard. I will never abandon the traditional keyboard, but kids will now grow up with something that can be even more expressive than our cherished piano. Even the qwerty keyboard will become a dinosaur when more subtle technology allows for greater depth in information transmission than the single parameter keystroke. It is coming and cannot be stopped. Even "serious" Music will develop in unexpected ways. The stalwarts will die sooner or later and their conventions will transmute to the new just as diehard harpsichordists had to acknowledge the piano was more expressive. I'm sure there are some who are still screaming "Never!" As they twang away at one volume.

Regarding connectivity, there is absolutely no problem hooking up microphones and acoustical, electronic instruments to the iOS platform. Audio interfaces are accurate, inexpensive and versatile.
There you are behind the times, I believe.

The most expert iOS users use a combination of iPad ( even iPhone) to sketch their ideas to finish on a desktop. It is a beautiful new synergy that allows composers to work anywhere, anytime. As to iOS knowledge being a detriment to learning desktop, they are getting more and more similar. Many iOS fanatics don't like this trend and would prefer a more evolutionary direction to the technology. A direction that would modularize music creation and production to the extent that the traditional DAW is replaced by something brand new with different and more far reaching capabilities.

Yes, the fortunate talented few will wind up with top engineers in a recording studio, but the line between professionals and hobbyists is blurring thanks to technology. Even Charles Ives as a "hobbyist" supported his brilliance with a successful insurance business. No "serious" music moguls took him seriously in the beginning, if I am not mistaken. Those who do not embrace change will be crushed by it, if only through attrition. To have a Ludditical approach (and I am not saying you are such, Shirime, quite the opposite. I am only addressing your response because you come across as a thoughtful, fair and open minded fellow). Music is global, microtonal, often devoid of complex harmonies, for most of the world. These musics are equal to the best western society has to offer. Hopefully "classical, serious" music will always be listened to, played and appreciated. But if it does not evolve with the times to connect the past with the future it will be doomed, IMHO, to wither on the vine, supported by a dwindling ruling class who would have never abandoned the carburetor if they had a choice.

Thanks again, for your serious interest. Open and fair discussion with everyone of good intention can easily be derailed by self image, oppressive rule/establishment following, and superiority insecurities. I have seen it on many threads here. With contributors such as yourself perhaps these prejudices can be overcome to the benefit of all.


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## Guest

Thanks for that post, IpadComposer. I don't want to sound like I take issue with your perspective, but you did enlighten me on some things I did not consider or did not know too well. Technology advances quickly, and I'm not exactly one who keeps up all that much. I am still somewhat sceptical whenever someone says there is a 'best way' to use technology to compose or even a 'best technology' because I think there will always be a good range of things for people to choose from. I have gradually come to learn that the way we individually work, the way we compose, means that different types of technology and software would be best suited to different people. (and, as someone who converted from iPhone to Samsung recently, but still uses other apple products, I don't want to become too tied down with a specific company)


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## IpadComposer

shirime said:


> Thanks for that post, IpadComposer. I don't want to sound like I take issue with your perspective, but you did enlighten me on some things I did not consider or did not know too well. Technology advances quickly, and I'm not exactly one who keeps up all that much. I am still somewhat sceptical whenever someone says there is a 'best way' to use technology to compose or even a 'best technology' because I think there will always be a good range of things for people to choose from. I have gradually come to learn that the way we individually work, the way we compose, means that different types of technology and software would be best suited to different people. (and, as someone who converted from iPhone to Samsung recently, but still uses other apple products, I don't want to become too tied down with a specific company)


That's fine. I certainly am not claiming iOS is the "best" way. I just want young composers to see it as an option and not dismiss it without understanding its advantages and place In the music production landscape,


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## E Cristobal Poveda

Sekhar said:


> Wait, so they just take your hand-written score and copy into parts on their own? Wouldn't you need to enter into a notation program to print out the parts? I'm confused.


Well, no. I do notate electronically, but I don't rely on electronic sounds for my music.


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## caters

I use Musescore on Windows 10. I have never in my life used iOS.


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## IpadComposer

Well, maybe you might investigate it. It might intrigue you. It hasn't been around very long. The iPad debuted in 2006 I believe. It was not really able to produce finished tracks of a more professional quality until a few years ago.


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