# CD's: going away?



## SPR

I am guessing that within 5 years or so, it is going to be very hard to purchase a physical CD. (or indeed vinyl or other physical media)

Big US retailers.. and I visit all of them, have visibly scaled back all of their music racks, and classical music and everything that is 'not pop' in particular. Go try to find a Blues CD. Online retailers (like Amazon) still carry everything, but they too are transitioning to electronic media ate a very fast pace.

The trend is rushing headling into electronic downloads. Through online music providers, cable providers etc. I think it is so cheap to distribute music that way, the change is virtually inevitable.

Of course, at what expense to music lovers? It is fairly easy to get caught up in the audiophiles debate - but the digital formats are getting close to being indestinguishable from an analog recording with respect to sound quality. Its not there yet, which is why I still insist on buying CD's and ripping myself and NOT downloading music.. and certainly not downloading copy protected or sub quality digitized music. (DRM - yet another topic)

Even Home theater systems just beg for digitized music. Everything is leaning this way. When you can store several thousand CD's worth of music in the same space as 4 8-track tapes, and still have it sound exceptional, what is the problem?

I just still hate the fact that I will not be able to get physical media, artwork etc.


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## jhar26

SPR said:


> I am guessing that within 5 years or so, it is going to be very hard to purchase a physical CD. (or indeed vinyl or other physical media) ^


I hope that you are wrong, but I fear that you may very well be right. I think that from an artistic perspective it will hurt pop and rock even more than classical. Youngsters will make their own compilations - a tune from the guy with the funky boots, a song from the bimbo who was on MTV yesterday, and so on. It will be the end of the album format.


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## SPR

The end of the album format, or a 'return' to the original format of say... "78's" which had a time limitation of about three and a half minutes?

I hear what you are saying, but the album, I would venture to suggest in some cases, is more a marketing tool and money making venture for the media companies - especially with respect to pop music. Of course, bodies of work in some cases (many cases) are desirable and valuable - but very frequently as well, it is simply a mechanism to up the price from 2 bucks to 20. 

I am very conflicted on the entire thing. Electronic distriubution also opens up, I would expect, many many new avenues for artists to distribute & sell their work directly.

Miss albums? yes

Miss CD's? yes

youngsters mixing their own compilations a bad thing? no. I think anything that gets people to listen to more and more music is a good thing. 

miss having to purchase Don Mcleans tedious album just to get 'American Pie'? No, not really. Perhaps thats a bad example.

How many times have you purchased a piece of classical music on a CD along with some other piece that was put in as, lets be honest... 'filler'?

Again. I dont know how I feel about it all. I'm probably just getting old and find it hard to change.


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## marval

I have found where I live, here in the UK it is much harder to get cds. I remember a time when there was always a good music shop, where classical music was easily available. Now all there seems to be is pop if you are lucky. The internet has now replaced the music shop, somehow it is not the same as going into a shop and choosing. Also one shop I used to frequent actually had someone working in there who knew what they were talking about, (no offence to people who work in music shops.)

So do I think cds etc. are going to disappear, I hope not but it is a possibility.


Margaret


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## Ciel_Rouge

Well, it seemed vinyl had been replaced by tapes for a while, but then they were knocked over by another round object - being the CDs. The transition from a CD to iPod downloads from iTunes and Amazon has already happened for the pop listeners. Sure it is cheaper and less complicated for the record companies. And yet, it is also becoming fashionable (and economically sensible) to buy used vinyl records. I don't know about the US, but in Europe you can even buy new turntables in malls...

So let me hypothesise a bit about future possibilities:

1. Deutsche Grammophon and others may drop physical records altogether distributing files at original quality over the internet. As the number of classical fans online seems to be growing as shown by this forum and others around the world, it is also possible that the Amazon and iTunes downloads will become actually cheaper than CDs and easily available to lots of customers around the world who could not afford the physical format. 

Downloads have one major advantage - you can easily take your entire collection with you wherever you go and you may also listen to anything at any time because you do not have to bother to find the CDs in your cabinet and change them.

However, the booklets may only be available to customers interested in them and they may even turn from booklets into full-blown books as the cost of sending tonnes of plastic in plastic boxes would have been taken away leaving some room for this kind of activity. The books "accompanying" the files (or becoming a completely standalone entity) may also become expensive but well worth it 

2. At the same time, a huge revival of the vinyl market may happen, as people will still miss the physical "thing" and also notice the sound quality that vinyl-based systems may offer. That could become a small but totally healthy niche in the future.

3. The divide between avid listeners and casual listeners may deepen leading to the pop listeners not being aware of other genres and not paying much attention to their own genre as the prices for pop downloads but also their quality would plunge further.


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## Kuhlau

CDs going away? Definitely ... in about 20 years from now.

I feel like I've discussed this issue online quite a bit in the past few years. And I always end up looking like the most optimistic guy in the world. But I genuinely believe that CDs are with us for some time to come.

Here's my vision for the future of music distribution:

1) Downloading will increase its market share - that much is plainly obvious. But, as broadband speeds increase in the developed world, making larger files quicker to download, consumers will start demanding higher quality music files. At least, discerning listeners will.  I'm not just talking about CD quality. Classical music enthusiasts are already discovering the audio bliss that is studio master quality in downloads from Linn and Gimell.

2) Before this becomes the norm, lossless formats like WMA Lossless, Apple Lossless and particularly FLAC will replace MP3 and other lossy technologies. Again, I'm thinking of classical music here (jazz, too), rather than pop, rock or whatever. Sites like Passionato and Pristine Classical are already making available FLAC releases of dozens of titles, and Chandos' online store offers WMA Lossless. And of course, there's iTunes.

3) This increase in purely digital music distribution will inevitably see the further decline of CD sales, until in the end, you won't be able to buy anything but blank CD-Rs or RWs on the high street. But online, CD sales will continue to enjoy a reasonable 'Indian summer' for some years to come - albeit at prices far below what they've been in the past.

4) The biggest threat to CDs from a consumer's point of view will be the issue of storage. Serious collectors will (and indeed do) run out of shelf space, and eventually the realisation will dawn on them that for just a few pounds/dollars/yen, they can buy acres of digital storage in a small black box (storage which will, I believe, be entirely solid state by about 2020, lowering the risk of data corruption from failed mechanical parts in HDDs and increasing the adoption of this media, and therefore the willingness to download higher-quality music files). When _this_ happens, the CD's days are numbered.

5) Not all the changes will be consumer driven. The recorded music industry is losing money hand over fist at the present time; and while CD production costs may be comparatively low, they soon stack up when weighed against the losses suffered as a result of music piracy - something the internet has made it incredibly easy to partake in with very little risk. So pure economics will soon force the hands of record executives, and downloading will be hailed universally as the future of music distribution.

6) Liner notes will be reduced to three letters: P-D-F. All booklets will be produced in this format, and will be made available to download at the point of online purchase and/or put up on the servers of record labels' sites, where they'll be readily accessible for free or a nominal payment.

7) Finally, until network music servers become the norm in every home, you can expect to see CD-Rs and RWs on sale for ages yet. As for audiophile CD players and other high-end equipment, this will also be around for a long, long time. Let's face it: there are a lot of CDs out there, and people are going to want to play them for decades to come.

You know what? All this makes me excited about the future of music distribution. Anything you want, any time of day. No shipping costs, no lost parcels and no damaged goods (barring dodgy rips/encodes, which currently happens more often than I'm happy about - though it's still early days). And no more forking out for CD shelving units that take up too much damned space in my house. 

FK


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## Jon Kershaw

I used to manage a classical CD shop in Cardiff which went bust due to lack of trade. High Street Retailers have literally no protection against their nemesis competitor "the internet" (and not *enough* people are bothered by this fact for it to make a difference).

It always used to make me laugh when people came in with a "difficult" request, and invariably used the words "I'm keen to support my local music shop" (We'd never seen them before, of course).

So I'd say "I'll see what we can do" (And I did, because I'm a conscientious bod).
Within a few minutes of searching it was obvious (in 99% of cases) that they were asking us to help out because the particular title was either listed as out-of-stock/unavailable at Amazon, or it was a difficult-to-get import from the USA (oh yes, there were plenty of those!) I quickly learnt to just ask "have you tried to get this on Amazon?" to save myself a wasted 10 minutes 

Large, well-organised online traders with their entirely different cost-base can very easily monopolise any market they want (it's not just CDs - it's everything!). The sad part is that well-informed, well-meaning individuals are powerless to stop the juggernaut that really got going about 3 years ago and continues to grow. All businesses need a certain amount of "guaranteed" trade to survive, and having well-trained, knowledgable staff doesn't make a jot of difference to that basic fact.

In the shop we knew it was nearly the end when we were regularly ordering certain CDs from Amazon because we could buy them cheaper as a "punter" than we could buy them with a trade discount direct from the supplier! We hung on for a while, but the owner realised it was futile and closed the business.
(I now own and run my own specialist sheet music shop! I'm still poor but I'm my own boss. It's good to call the shots for a change) 

High Street (Printed Music) Shops continue to close at an alarming rate. I've logged the demise of some of them here:
http://www.kershawmusic.co.uk/spweb/content.php?contentid=48

Still, that's life eh? We're all doomed anyway thanks to a few greedy bankers.
I am fascinated to wonder what the world will be like in 10 years.
Pretty bloomin' terrible, I reckon!

[EDIT - As this thread is about CDs themselves, I thought I'd better offer a response to that.
Here's my response: Change is inevitable. No-one likes Change.
Who wants recordings anyway, when LIVE music is so much better!]

Night all.


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## PostMinimalist

It would be nice to see some publishers take an interest in selling only hard copies as a policy but since most publishers are now becoming so tight that even Beethoven couldn't get a deal for his fith Symphony if he tried today, what are we to do? It's a two way street. CD makers/dealers are not in it because they love the format but rather what's on it (music). If downloading music is the way things are going then why stand in the way? I now like having my 'record' collection on my laptop and it doesn't bother me that I don't have to fiddle with plastic discs to find what I want to hear. On the other hand printed music still has to be circulated properly and there is a real problem here since less and less musicians read music and less and less 'composers' know how to write down their ideas correctly. What I fear is not the demise of the CD (which Chris Warren-Green reckons is due to happen 2012-2013) but the dissapearence of literate musicians!


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## Louigi Verona

This is an interesting topic and actually deals closely with my Disc Shelf project.

About two years ago I felt that CDs are inevitable going away. To me this is not a good thing in a sense that
1. I want to be able to touch the release, I want it to by physical.
2. Having a physical media usually limits the amount of music. With digital formats you have zillions of tunes and you just don't have time to listen to them all. Once you have a cd with 12 tracks, you can carefully listen to them, absorb.

Eventually, I thought that if we are to have digital music, why not create virtual albums - but not just some webpages with links to files, but something that looks like a compact disc. So I came up with Disc Shelf - a service which would allow musicians to add music in form of albums - with a cover, booklet and design.

I still believe there needs to be some physical media. At least a USB.


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## Lang

marval said:


> Also one shop I used to frequent actually had someone working in there who knew what they were talking about, (no offence to people who work in music shops.)
> 
> Margaret


I always remember a record shop I went into when I happened to be in Oxford one day. I handed to the young assistant my two, rather obscure purchases. The first one was a CD of sacred choral music by Gesualdo that had recently been released. Her face lit up when she saw it. "Oh, I have got this," she said, "it's a really good recording." We discussed Gesualdo for a while, and she clearly knew his music. Then she took the second recording - something of a contrast, Michael Nyman's opera, "The Man Who Mistook his Wife for a Hat". "Have you read the Oliver Sachs book this is based on?" she said. I had not, and she recommended it.

I suppose if you in Oxford you must expect encounters like that, but it was really refreshing to encounter an assistant who was clearly highly knowledgeable and enthusiastic about what she was selling. Only time it's ever happened, though ...


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## Lang

Actually, as my last post was a bit OT, here is one to make up for it.

I had a very weird sensation a few years back when I went to an 'antiques fair', and saw a really familiar sight - a tin of gramophone needles, the type I used to regularly buy when I started collecting records. In those days you needed to be pretty muscular, because carrying a recording of Beethoven's Fifth from the shops was quite a daunting task - it was *heavy*! 

When LPs came in, it was impossible not to love them, because of the lack of surface noise and the better recording quality - and of course, the main benefit, the fact that the music didn't have to be broken up into five-minute segments. And stereo, when that began, was a bonus. However, I did deeply miss the physical presence of the old shellac recordings, the wobble as they rotated at the breakneck speed of 78 revolutions a minute, and the way the light used to catch the grooves. Also the labels. I suppose the physical recordings became inseparable from the pleasure I experienced when I listened to them. 

Cartridges came and went, including the ill-fated 8-tracks. 

CDs had many great things about them, although they were originally presented as being 'indestructible'. I remember a TV programme when they claimed to play a CD after having poured honey all over it. The big disadvantage was that the sound was inferior. Just how inferior I didn't appreciate, until I played the vinyl version of Barbirolli's Mahler 9, synchronised with the CD version, and switched from one to the other. The 'sheen' of the vinyl recording had completely gone, and the sound was dry and unappealing on the CD.

Anyway, the final result is that I have hundreds of LPs, hundreds of cassettes and hundreds of CDs. I think that for many people it is impossible to get rid of loved recordings, and you find one way or another to continue to enjoy them.

This has turned out to be a shapeless ramble, rather than a real contribution to the discussion, and for that I apologise. I suppose that what I am trying to say is that all technology is transient, and it is a mistake to become too attached to any one medium. The important thing is the sounds themselves, and so long as we have them, then things are not too bad with the world.


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## Louigi Verona

Actually, thanks for sharing. I don't think this is much offtopic.


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## SPR

good points all.

Kuhlau - you say 20 years, I said 5. It may be somewhere in between, but if you take a close look - I believe things are moving faster than anticipated. It is sort of paralleling the dissappearance of cash. Thumping down a few bills and a few coins... even for a small transaction like a coffee and a scone - I believe will very much become a minorty transaction as credit/debit cards and the near instant transaction take over. People are buying things by waving their cellphones around in the right direction.

post-mimimalist - your statement about "the dissapearence of literate musicians" is frightening to say the least. BUT. I have to believe that something so basic to human nature such as music (including the need to communicate it effectively) is quite resiliant and could never - even through a targeted and aggressive campaign if there ever was one , be supressed. If there are more pseudo 'composers' simply noodling around than ever before, what of it? More power to them and I hope they succeed as brilliantly as serious students of the craft. There is not a speck of doubt in mi tiny little mind that musicianship is here to stay.

As far as 'physical' product goes.. yeah, you can always burn your own CD, and print your own artwork etc. The burden is put on the consumer however. Or perhaps it should be seen as a choice rather than a burden.

God help us when the electrical grid fails. You cant hand-crank a hard drive like a victrolla.


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## SPR

Lang said:


> ...Anyway, the final result is that I have hundreds of LPs, hundreds of cassettes and hundreds of CDs. I think that for many people it is impossible to get rid of loved recordings, and you find one way or another to continue to enjoy them.


I am ashamed (?) to admit that I have purchased Fleetwood Mac's 'Rumors' album no less than 5 times. 8 Track, Album, Casette, CD, and recently the remastered CD with the 2nd disc of outtakes and extra tracks.


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## jhar26

SPR said:


> I am ashamed (?) to admit that I have purchased Fleetwood Mac's 'Rumors' album no less than 5 times. 8 Track, Album, Casette, CD, and recently the remastered CD with the 2nd disc of outtakes and extra tracks.


No need to be ashamed - it's a great album.


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## marval

Yes Lang, I know what you mean about the experience you had in an Oxford shop. The shop I liked was in Leeds. The trouble is if cds disappear and all we have is the internet to rely on, there won't be experienced people to talk and advise. We shall just have to come to TC.

Margaret


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## Louigi Verona

marval: not necessarily. it is not yet common, but not too rare when an online shop has a consultant availble over icq or Skype. With better Internet connections you'll be able to use the video cam to speak to people who manage e-shops too. It is not exactly face to face conversation, but it is not that bad either.


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## marval

Thank you for that Luigi, that is good to know.


Margaret


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## PostMinimalist

I'm not really so worried about mediocre composers taking over the world but rather concerned that there will be few real musicians around to play masterpieces from the past (and the present) since the emphasis on music literacy is being shifted to fddling about with an electric keyboard in classrooms all over the world. That surely wont stop talented composiers producing great works but it will flood the scene with piffle and dross through which we will have to wade to find these rare gems.


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## Rondo

The trend is that everything is going digital. It is nice to have CD inserts to read while listening, and to have a master to use as a backup (saving the time to take in burning). The good side to MP3s, is that you don't have to listen to everything in order to purchase. You can hand-pick tracks before purchasing the entire album. 30 sec. samples just don't cut it!!

But, on the other hand, I have grown so used to building a physical CD library, that I feel MP3s just take away from that. Maybe it's just me, but there far less of a sense of admiration for a large music library on a computer than for a large _physical_ library of original CDs (or whatever physical medium you prefer).


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## SPR

Rondo said:


> ...Maybe it's just me, but there far less of a sense of admiration for a large music library on a computer than for a large _physical_ library of original CDs (or whatever physical medium you prefer).


Admiration? So, its 'my CD rack is bigger than yours', is it? 

but.. it depends who you talk to. I dont have the biggest collection of CD's.. about 2,000 I guess but to me its ponderous and takes up space.. and people do look at it googly-eyed and think I am some sort of music nut.

However, when I pick up a 0.5TB hard drive in one hand containing all of these CDs that have been meticulously ripped, scrupulously tagged, and organized with artwork... the geeks get all googly eyed and the old timers simply shrug.

I am starting to get uncomfortable with the concept of 'how much is enough' however. I really should have enough music to keep me satisfield. Its just, you see... that there is no end to it. (That sounds like a drug addict, no?)

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Who knows. pretty soon, we could be storing 1,000 gigabytes in something the size of a sugar cube.

http://www.inphase-technologies.com/technology/whitepapers.asp?subn=2_3


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## Kuhlau

You're right, SPR - there _is_ no end to it. And thank God for that. Can you imagine reaching the end of the rainbow? I'll bet it's a bitter disappointment.

FK


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## Rondo

Whether it is a very large electronic collection or a very large shelf of CDs is a matter of your own opinion. The differentiation I made was not about _how many_ recordings a person has, but the type of collection (electronic or physical). I could brag about CD racks or shelves or I could brag about how many gigabytes of music I have on my keychain. It's just a matter of perspective. I just have more pride in a physical collection, which includes CDs ranging from my newest purchases to the first recordings I ever purchased (before online music stores).


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## PostMinimalist

I think we all have a bit of the musical Luddite in us. I was thinking this morning that the same reaction must have taken place when the printing press was invented. 'How can a book be 'real' if I didn't copy it out by hand - This printed stuff is a sham!' It's just another paradigm shift. Of course hand copied books are much more prescious than a penguin paperback as CDs will doubtless be more treasured items than the bitchunks on a flash memory stick in a few decades but that's not the point. The point is that the general punter is not a conneseur; he wants music to listen to. If that means downloads instead of CDs then that's where he'll go.


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## PostMinimalist

Having said that, I personally by CDs from the shops if at all possible and only as a last resort download stuff of the net and then only if it's much cheaper than the CD would be or free. But that's just the Scotsman coming out in me!
FC


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## Louigi Verona

Rondo: I totally understand what you mean. Besides, collecting physical cds IS more difficult than copying files. Thus it makes you more proud.


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## Elgarian

Just try to imagine a time when there are no more things like ... this:

http://www.baroqueboxset.com/acceuil.html

I can't see that as anything but a loss.


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## marval

I agree with Elgarian, it would be terrible not to be able to have a collection of particular music. I don't see if cds vanish what the alternative would be.


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## Kuhlau

The alternative would be cheap deals on downloadable sets, I guess.

FK


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## Elgarian

Kuhlau said:


> The alternative would be cheap deals on downloadable sets, I guess.


No, that's not what I mean at all. I'm talking about the existence of THINGS like the Versailles set. I'm talking about the pleasure of seeing and handling this really quite beautiful object and its contents, which is part of the process of choosing what to listen to. I get a little thrill of excitement every time it catches my eye on the shelf. All this (and I don't think it's insignificant by any means) will be lost.


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## jhar26

SPR said:


> The end of the album format, or a 'return' to the original format of say... "78's" which had a time limitation of about three and a half minutes?
> 
> I hear what you are saying, but the album, I would venture to suggest in some cases, is more a marketing tool and money making venture for the media companies - especially with respect to pop music. Of course, bodies of work in some cases (many cases) are desirable and valuable - but very frequently as well, it is simply a mechanism to up the price from 2 bucks to 20.


True, and for those artists that are exclusively top 40 acts it won't make that much of a difference. Still, albums are often supposed to make a different kind of statement. Songs are grouped together and ranked in a particular order to set a mood or sometimes even to tell a story. The whole is sometimes bigger than the sum of it's parts. The demise of the album would take away the opportunity for artists in the field of popular music to do anything that goes beyond trying to come up with a decent song. No point in trying to make it fit into any kind of concept because there would no longer be a medium for it. I think that would be a pity.


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## jhar26

marval said:


> I have found where I live, here in the UK it is much harder to get cds. I remember a time when there was always a good music shop, where classical music was easily available. Now all there seems to be is pop if you are lucky. The internet has now replaced the music shop, somehow it is not the same as going into a shop and choosing.
> 
> Margaret


True, but there's also a positive side to it. On the internet you can find almost any cd, book or video you want. In a regular shop you have to settle for what they have.


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## marval

Yes, you are right jhar26, I should have thought of that. Certainly if you can find a classical muisc shop now, they are very limited.


Margaret


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## Kuhlau

Elgarian said:


> No, that's not what I mean at all. I'm talking about the existence of THINGS like the Versailles set.


This will seem hypocritical coming from the man with over 2,000 CDs sat on shelves behind him as he types, but surely things - however beautiful - are still just _things_. To my mind, what matters more is the music, not how it's packaged (even though I know this can sometimes be a treat for at least two of our other physical senses).

FK


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## Elgarian

Kuhlau said:


> surely things - however beautiful - are still just _things_. To my mind, what matters more is the music, not how it's packaged (even though I know this can sometimes be a treat for at least two of our other physical senses).


Well, 'things' is a big word. The world of 'things' includes snowdrops, the Taj Mahal, a Rembrandt self-portrait, and the Moxon Tennyson (not to mention you and me) - so I wouldn't say 'just' things, myself. The Versailles box admittedly isn't 'Great Art' but I'd certainly count it among the more life-enriching objects I've encountered.

If I have a painting I love, I don't hang it on the wall in its bare canvas. I frame it in an appropriate manner - partly to separate it visually from its surroundings of course, but also as a significant symbolic statement about it. Human beings have been doing this sort of thing for objects they revere as long as there have been human beings, after all. I don't want to divorce the music I listen to from that kind of symbolic/aesthetic activity. As I said in an earlier post - to do so would for me be all loss, and no gain.


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## Kuhlau

Elgarian, you are a wise and considered man, sir.

Of course, I was being rather broad and a little flippant when I spoke of 'things' being merely stuff. Nonetheless, I'm still of the opinion that it's the music which remains most important. I'm not a very visual person - despite working in a highly creative industry - so the way CDs sound is always more essential to me than the way they're packaged.

FK


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## Elgarian

Kuhlau said:


> Elgarian, you are a wise and considered man, sir.


 Well, even if you're wrong about that, it's still a nice thing to say; and if you're right - well, it takes one to know one, of course .... So we both do well either way.



> I'm not a very visual person - despite working in a highly creative industry - so the way CDs sound is always more essential to me than the way they're packaged.


Of course I'd far prefer to have a fine recording badly packaged, than a bad recording tarted up to look deceptively attractive (which would be no use to me at all). That's a carts and horses kind of issue. But generally speaking I'm intensely affected by the visual, so it makes me greedy for the best of both worlds.


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## Badinerie

Downloading is just not as 'Appealing' as having a Disc with printed booklet with the music arranged in a program that the composer or performer designed. Downloads are by nature a piecmeal proccess by which purchasers will buy only the tracks they desire. They may never make the discovery buy buying a CD with an wonderfull accompanying composition ( or a real dog!) that they would never otherwise have Known about. Cd's never disconnect from the cd player mid track either. 

Sometimes the internet is unavailable due to seemingly never ending exchange upgrades ( Thank you BT!) or server issues. I have never been stopped at a shop door by an employee who tells me that I cant come in because " The door isnt working!"

I have a collection of music MP3's on my other computer, or I would have, if it hadnt become unservicable and had to have Windows re-installed! You never do have quite all of your MP3's backed up. There is always loss. Buying a spare hard drive ? yeah right what happened to cheap?

When I play a CD I have the Amplifier and The CD player switched on which uses very little power. Using my PC through my Amplifier means I have a PC an the Amp on using more electricity AND listening to the slight but annoying sound of a cooling fan.
I can also browse my music collection without turning anything on or using any power at all!

For me I want a hard copy in my hand. Even solid state memory storage is vulnerable. How many back ups do you need?! just one buy the bloody CD!


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## PostMinimalist

The idea is to down load the music then burn a CD with your favorite stuff on it and play that on your CD player. It saves a trip to the shops and you can arrange things on the CD how you want them. Don't you burn CDs to play in the car on long trips? It's nice to have the CD yes, but we can enjoy both worlds for now at least!
Congrats by the way on your 100th post - you senior member you!
FC


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## Kuhlau

Badinerie said:


> Downloads are by nature a piecmeal proccess by which purchasers will buy only the tracks they desire. They may never make the discovery buy buying a CD with an wonderfull accompanying composition ( or a real dog!) that they would never otherwise have Known about.


In the case of serious classical music purchasers who buy both CDs and downloads, I very much doubt that most would want only part of an album. I always download the whole thing ... precisely to make the kind of discoveries you suggest some would not.



Badinerie said:


> Sometimes the internet is unavailable due to seemingly never ending exchange upgrades ( Thank you BT!) or server issues. I have never been stopped at a shop door by an employee who tells me that I cant come in because " The door isnt working!"


Amused by this though I am, I'm afraid I can't agree. I very rarely experience internet downtime, and I've yet to visit a classical music download site where I couldn't get what I wanted, when I wanted it.



Badinerie said:


> You never do have quite all of your MP3's backed up. There is always loss.


On this we agree. I've experienced losses because I was too lazy to back up regularly. But that's the fault of the user, not the medium.



Badinerie said:


> ... AND listening to the slight but annoying sound of a cooling fan.


I'm lucky in this respect: my laptop cooling fan is near-silent when I'm playing music to speakers, and totally inaudible when I use headphones.



Badinerie said:


> How many back ups do you need?! just one buy the bloody CD!


There is an advantage to having several back-ups. Let's say your house burns down (God forbid), and your entire CD collection is destroyed. If you'd ripped and encoded it and left a back-up round at a friend's house, you'd have lost no music. Not that such knowledge would bring one much comfort after such a terrible disaster ... 

FK


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## Louigi Verona

Any straightforward comparison between material and non-material objects is subjectless. mp3 files are pure information, cds are physical medium. It is better to compare the benefits of use.

If we speak about cds, there are several good pluses:
1. It is pleasant to have something physical associated with music.
2. Compact discs offer design and booklet with information.
3. CDs have very limited storage space so we are not overblown with the amount of music to listen to.

If we speak about mp3 we have other pluses:
1. Easy to store.
2. Easy to copy.
3. Do not require any special factory to produce.

Decide what is more valuable and what is more efficient and whether efficiency as a value outweights other values.
I think cds will eventually go away, replaced by flash drives. In fact, several bands in the UK, including Pet Shop Boys, have released albums on a flash drive.


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## PostMinimalist

Well refereed Louigi!


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## Badinerie

Louigi Verona said:


> I think cds will eventually go away, replaced by flash drives. In fact, several bands in the UK, including Pet Shop Boys, have released albums on a flash drive.


CD's go away, what you mean like LP's? But as long as people are buying CD's the companies will sell them. For my part, Flash drives? I think the last thing we need is another format and another kind rack to keep them in! Also if one can download then burn then on a CD. Its still a CD format but with zero artistic production value on the physical part. yuk!...Like many people here I like the complete package. Make me feel like Im getting something for my money.

_{There is an advantage to having several back-ups. Let's say your house burns down (God forbid), and your entire CD collection is destroyed. If you'd ripped and encoded it and left a back-up round at a friend's house, you'd have lost no music. Not that such knowledge would bring one much comfort after such a terrible disaster}_

You have to watch the copywrite people here. You could actually fall foul of the law if you make too many copies. A real minefield that one so if you do make 4 or 5 backups....Shhhhh!


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## Kuhlau

Badinerie said:


> You have to watch the copywrite people here. You could actually fall foul of the law if you make too many copies. A real minefield that one so if you do make 4 or 5 backups....Shhhhh!


Trust me, the BPI aren't interested in those making legitimate back-ups of their music. 

FK


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## Louigi Verona

those flash drives came with booklets and stuff as far as I heard


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## SPR

spam spam spam spam spam spam....

=====================

go pitch your crappy service somewhere else. You have now guaranteed that your website will be viewed with complete contempt, and I have already blocked it from our internal corporate network so that nobody, at least in this company...will ever see it.

Other than that... good luck.


**refers to deleted spam post***

Good job catching that one so quickly!


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## Kuhlau

Yes, a good call on the anti-spam front ... though I'm rather pleased that the entry made it to my inbox as an email notification. There's something to be said for DG's initiatives - but I won't say it here. That would be spamming. 

FK


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## SPR

So... I started this thread November 2008, so its been a little more than a year. I have to say, that my guess at '5 years' before you will not be able to simply run down to the corner and buy a CD isnt looking too far fetched.

One of my favorite places to go, Newbury Comics looks like they have canned their entire classical section (not that it was great to begin with. Borders looks like the amount of floor space allocated to music has shrunk by *at least* 50% in the past year.

Its just evaporating. Is amazon my only real choice at this point?


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## David58117

I certainly don't think they'll go away, I think it's more the way they are purchased is what is changing. The borders floor space might have diminished, but have you been to their website? They still have a nice selection (not that I order from them) available. In fact, thanks to the internet, it's possible to purchase more "obscure" CDs that a brick and mortar store wouldn't stock due to physical limitations. 

I live in a pretty big city, and with the exception of one used cd chain that has prices comparable to what I can usually find on the internet, I do all of my shopping online. Sure there was a time when I enjoyed browsing a locations physical stock, and didn't mind paying full price ($15 or so) for a new CD, but...not anymore. Now I'm more struck by how limited locations like that are - even if borders filled their whole music department with classical CDs, they would still pale in comparison to what can be found online. And if a store online can provide that $15 CD at a fraction of that price - they are the ones who are going to get my money, and lots of it. 

When I think brick and mortar store I think...where are they getting the money to pay their employees? Who is paying their rental fee, their electricity? I'm sorry but no matter how nice or knowledgeable that employee is, I'd rather not take money away from my family or my limited entertainment budget to pay their salary.


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## christmashtn

*Which Newbury Comics?*

Which Newbury Comics are you referring? The classical section on Newbury Street is still very alive and kicking. In fact I am the part timer in charge of that department. The classical section in Harvard Square has been moved from the corner it was in, to the middle of the floor. Neither store has lost any classical inventory space. I believe the Natick store though has trimmed classical way down. Right now emphassis is being placed on high quality surplus merchandise. Lots of new Telarc, Hanssler, Teldec Bach Cantatas, and Naxos are on sale from $3.99-$9.99. We are still bringing in catalog items if they sell, and new releases are still being ordered from all the majors.


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## SPR

christmashtn - you from around here?

The only stores I normally get to are Faneuil hall near where I work, and the other store in Avon which is the one I was referring to. Avon has a big space but seems they are more interested in expanding their 'toys and t-shirts' sections. Shrug. They still carry a good amount of pop/rock... they have just about eliminated everything else. Blues, World, Bluegrass, and as I said Classical is gone. I think there is one rack containing mostly 'leftovers' of a variety of genres that is barely worth mentioning. 

Borders still has about 10 times the classical Nwebury comics ever did... but their prices are very high more often than not. Barnes & Noble is worse in both selection and price.

david - agree. Price is a big deal - and places like Amazon have simply gigantic variety.... more and more going digital. Some ONLY digital. I simply see things like itunes growing by leaps and bounds, netflix and cable providers rushing to provide content on a 'rental' basis through special DRM (Digital Rights) controlled hardware... and dont even get me started on the Kindle thing replacing actual books.

Maybe Im paranoid. I think once adoption of electronic media gets wide enough - physical media production will stop - DRM will come back again with a vengence - and the ability to share music, literature... will go out the window.


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## jhar26

I hope that cd's will be available for the rest of my life. But I'm as concerned about it as you are, SPR.


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## Grosse Fugue

I like CD's but I think they will go away at some point. I really worry that physical books will follow. Not for a few years thought.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

The CD may be replaced by a variant of it, such as the SACD. But I think you guys meant if that round plastic disc as a medium might go away, which I do not think it will. There will always be significant use and demand for it.

To say it will "go away because everyone is downloading digital" is simply very naive. Cost of production has been decreasing/competitive, and it's the record label's loyalties, sponsorships etc. that go with a physical record/album launch that will continue to make the CD (or its variant) as a medium going. The economics surrounding the plastic round disc is huge, and it's not just a consumer CD driven thing. 

However, Clssical CD purchasing has changed over the last ten years. I have not bought more than half a dozen CD's from my Classical music CD shop in that period. I've been importing them myself from two favourite internet Classical CD websites, and occasionally from Amazon. The physical shops simply do not hold enough variety, they will need to be as big as a supermarket to hold everything.

P.S. Amazon is not the best for price. It's value to me however, is obtaining rare/deleted recordings.


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## SPR

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> ...To say it will "go away because everyone is downloading digital" is simply naive....


really now. Naive? I dont believe that. Some very serious people in the music industry would disagree with you. Not to argue... but I just find that a rather surprising statement.

I hate people that post batches of mindless internet links... as if that would bolster a position....but welll... here you go FWIW.

end game for CD's: (2010)
http://www.betanews.com/article/Dig...chief-foresees-the-endgame-for-CDs/1267383796

end of music CD's (2008)
http://scitech.blogs.cnn.com/2008/09/25/the-end-of-music-cds/

etc... http://pfeifferreport.com/trends/Pfeiffer_Music_Rep.pdf

etc... http://www.wired.com/listening_post/2008/08/happy-birthday/


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## HarpsichordConcerto

SPR said:


> really now. I dont believe that. Some very serious people in the music industry would disagree with you. Not to argue... but I just find that a rather surprising statement.
> 
> I hate people that post batches of mindless internet links... as if that would bolster a position....but welll... here you go FWIW.
> 
> end game for CD's: (2010)
> http://www.betanews.com/article/Dig...chief-foresees-the-endgame-for-CDs/1267383796
> 
> end of music CD's (2008)
> http://scitech.blogs.cnn.com/2008/09/25/the-end-of-music-cds/
> 
> etc... http://pfeifferreport.com/trends/Pfeiffer_Music_Rep.pdf
> 
> etc... http://www.wired.com/listening_post/2008/08/happy-birthday/


Thanks. I briefly read the first link. Honestly, being a businessman myself, the first link is just big corporate speak for promoting smartphones, Spotfiy, Shazam, Slacker, whatever the heck they all are. First two paragraphs read like marketing blurb. The entire article is full of heavily marketed products, big corporate names etc. to promote stuff they have invested in.

But if there is a better recording medium than the current CD that offers "better recorded sound" (whichever way that is defined), I'm in for it. I'm not into downloads, and listening to that via a set of headphones and or through the computer's speakers. Hi-fidelty is plain missing that way.


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## SPR

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Thanks. I briefly read the first link. Honestly, being a businessman myself, the first link is just big corporate speak for promoting smartphones, Spotfiy, Shazam, Slacker, whatever the heck they all are. First two paragraphs read like marketing blurb. The entire article is full of heavily marketed products, big corporate names etc. to promote stuff they have invested in.
> 
> But if there is a better recording medium than the current CD that offers "better recorded sound" (whichever way that is defined), I'm in for it. I'm not into downloads, and listening to that via a set of headphones and or through the computer's speakers. Hi-fidelty is plain missing that way.


agreed... some of that was junk - and I too know business. My point, is that it is not as crazy a concept as you might guess, and certainly not naive. Those links just popped up with a 3 second search. I also wouldnt underestimate the power of the 18-27 year olds to shape the marketplace. You and I my friend - are merely a speck in a niche market. (Hard to believe with the amount of cash I drop on music, but I am not where the money is at. The money comes from the pop machine.) Sony has already said that (pure digital) is its goal - and they are not small potatoes. I dont think it is hyperbolic in the least to forecast digital downloads as the only option "soon" whatever that means.

Cripes - remember how fast Kodak went from the largest producer of 'film' in the world to completely getting out of the film business because of digital cameras? What did that take... 2 years to shut it down?

Overall however - im not overly upset. Google is rolling out gigabit broadband access... wireless carriers are supporting ever faster networks, storage is maintaining is march to unbelievable cheapness, solid state and low power drives are here... 600MB on a CD doesnt sound to large anymore and lossless flac or other files are available today as well. I do suspect that the purchasing, media transfer, and 'ownership' landscape will not look much like it does today.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Well, if CD's are well and truely going down the toilet in the near future (say less than 5 years), we better start hoarding more of them now. Hell, I need to double my budget on CD purchases and cut down on other things! Damn! 

Those budget priced box sets are starting to look real good given what's going to happen!


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## Johnny

I hope they don't die off. I like having the "hard copy" of an album.


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## Taneyev

I don't believe CDs.will go, as vinyls didn't after 60 years of their first numbers.


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## SalieriIsInnocent

I think that something like the SACD or the very unknown HD cd will become the next, but I can't imagine physical media dying. Too many people won't buy into it. Of course that was said in the big Vinyl to CD jump. I wouldn't be sad, as long as the medium isn't MP3.


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## christmashtn

I live near Boston College, work full time at Harvard, moonlight classical CD Department at Newbury Comics on Newbury Street. You can find me there on Sunday afternoons, Tuesday evenings, and most (but not all) Thursday evenings. You owe it to yourself tp check out Newbury Streets classical selection. Lots of new and used, out of print stuff too, and quite a wide selection to boot. If you have CD's which you would like to sell, they will buy them to enrich the deapartment, which really is the last of its kind in Boston.


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## jurianbai

I really hope it doesn't. I like to have a physical CD, especially in classical music where they have that wonderful notes. But I hard to admit that I found I ripped all my CD to MP3 format due to easily listening in laptop and mp3 player device. Also the storage problem, I move to Singapore several years ago and I leave all my phisical CDs and CASSETE TAPEs at home, for CD I only bring the digital version. That''s also what I going to do in the future where I may be move to other place.


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## Bgroovy2

This may be slightly off topic but here it goes; The information age has given us a lot of cool gadgets and perks but it has killed customer service. I really miss customer service! It is now an extict spieces that has died a slow painfull death. The Hi-Fi shops are all gone and the music store is close on it's heels. Other then the internet, the only places with CD's are friggin walmart and best buy. Ask one of the genXers working there if they have anything by Brahms and all you get is a dumb stare. I hope those little round disks never go away!


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## Boccherini

jurianbai said:


> But I hard to admit that I found I ripped all my CD to MP3 format due to easily listening in laptop and mp3 player device.


How could you? It's like playing the violin after shooting it a few times. (I have to inform that I had a Gould's vocal losses, for some reason, after doing it, which might be a good decision after all).


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## jurianbai

Joker64 said:


> How could you? It's like playing the violin after shooting it a few times. (I have to inform that I had a Gould's vocal losses, for some reason, after doing it, which might be a good decision after all).


What you mean? I spend more time in front of computer and with good headphones, the MP3 still as good, in 192 kbs. Then I commuted back home and listen via MP3 player in MRT (!), finally if I got luck and no peoples around, I will listen via CD player with original CD at home.


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## Boccherini

jurianbai said:


> the MP3 still as good, in 192 kbs.


Well, I doubt that. MP3's algorithm uses the form of lossy data compression which generates those sizzling sounds that usually ruin symphonies with grand orchestras. but fine. What headphones you use, may I ask?


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## jurianbai

Still a lousy Altec Lansing headphone , and Sony for MP3. Sure MP3 lose, there is a FLAC format but too large file. For string quartet it's ok, but symphony might be not. Then there is why I also think classical music CD will still survive the MP3 era.


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## Boccherini

FLAC is very good, indeed! 
Have you tried APE? lossless as well and a little smaller.


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## jurianbai

I tried APE also. But the windows media player usually default at MP3 ripping, so I rarely have the luxury of lossless format.


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## SPR

MP3 isnt *all* that bad.

I encode at 256kbps, variable bitrate. It is rare (very rare, if ever) that you can spot the difference between it and a CD. LAME encoder is good, but the itunes encoder is fine as well. Purists like to spout off about headroom loss.. but when you put them to an audio test - you (or they) cant tell the difference. Using bitrates like 128 is totally inferior and you can hear the differences almost always - and its not pretty. Classical music seems particularly vulnerable to some of the acoustic artifacts so a high freq/bitrate is important.

I have also tried Ogg format, AAC, etc... but MP3 is simply far to widespread and accepted a standard to avoid. FLAC is OK if you want to create archival quality electronic copies or do not have the original CD. For myself - I always have the CD and rarely buy electronic versions - so I can always re-rip into a different format if needed. (I would hate to do that with over 12,000 tracks in my library at the moment...)


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## Head_case

There's a huge difference between inferior MP3 quality encoded at 256kbps.

My Sony MiniDisc player encodes at 1411kbps bit rate. The difference is all the more audible, because the Sony MiniDisc player has a superior digital amp and DAC built into a portable unit. 

Cheap crappy digital iPods and digital MP3 players don't cut it for quality. You hear the siblance on high notes; you hear the collapse of the instrumental separation; you hear the throbbing bass instead of proper bass punch, and you lose all sense of spatial dynamics as well as struggling to hear anything through the limited high volumes of these weak-out put amps which come with cheap crappy digital MP3 players. 

People who are happy with MP3 are the majority, however this isn't a case where the blind should lead the deaf. There is a far richer sonic world out there, and unfortunately it costs; it's not just audiophiles who can tell the difference between a crappy MP3 and a CD player; it's just not a very scientific statement to make, when making broadsweeping generalisations that people can't tell the difference. This is what the mass marketing consumer manufacturers of digital junk would like you to believe; buy another MP3 player, and then pile its non-biodegradable shell and defunct electronics into a heap of junk for our planet to contend with. 

This is one reason why I love the minidisc format in its Hi-MD incarnation. You can rip to pathetic MP3 quality if you like, or rip to CD quality using lossless 1411kbps transfer rate. An MP3 player is for the school proms. A mini-disc player is for life


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## Boccherini

Head_case said:


> Cheap crappy digital iPods and digital MP3 players don't cut it for quality. You hear the siblance on high notes; you hear the collapse of the instrumental separation; you hear the throbbing bass instead of proper bass punch, and you lose all sense of spatial dynamics as well as struggling to hear anything through the limited high volumes of these weak-out put amps which come with cheap crappy digital MP3 players.


Well pointed, strongly agreed.


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## SPR

Minidisc is nice, but I would have a hard time suggesting that someone making new decisions on media and formats invest in minidisc. 'Minidisc for life'? Oh come now.

and lets not generate false choices here. Cheap crappy ipods have a place... such as when I am stuck on traffic yet have access to ALL of my music - and at a quality that is not only suitable for 'the prom' (rolleyes)... but for a satisfyingly high quality listening experience. Of course as everyone knows encoding makes a difference. When at home, CD's and a 'real' system are perfect as well. I must admit I dont use my turntable much anymore, though it is pleasing in a number of ways and has fantastic sound. I also do not buy much vinyl these days... shrug. Im considering packing it up, but I dont have the heart to do it actually.

regardless - the topic is the death of the CD. I suppose it should be encouraging that minidisc is still kicking around... that is if you want to chain your future to what is left of Sonys ever shrinking MD lineup.


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