# Did Kings/Queens know Sonata Form?



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

And the like? Just curious if they were educated.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Frederick the Great of Prussia was a patron of music as well as a gifted musician who played the transverse flute. He composed more than 100 sonatas for the flute as well as four symphonies. The Hohenfriedberger Marsch, a military march, was supposedly written by Frederick to commemorate his victory in the Battle of Hohenfriedberg during the Second Silesian War. His court musicians included C. P. E. Bach, Johann Joachim Quantz, Carl Heinrich Graun and Franz Benda. A meeting with Johann Sebastian Bach in 1747 in Potsdam led to Bach's writing The Musical Offering.

So I suppose, if he composed flute sonatas, he was probably familiar with sonata form.......for obvious reasons we can't go much earlier than him and his reign, though.

Our own Queen Victoria was, by all accounts, a decent pianist (she had lots of them, not that that is conclusive evidence), and Prince Albert apparently composed as well. I get the impression they genuinely liked Mendelssohn, and the feeling was reciprocated.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Robert Pickett said:


> Frederick the Great of Prussia was a patron of music as well as a gifted musician who played the transverse flute. He composed more than 100 sonatas for the flute as well as four symphonies. The Hohenfriedberger Marsch, a military march, was supposedly written by Frederick to commemorate his victory in the Battle of Hohenfriedberg during the Second Silesian War. His court musicians included C. P. E. Bach, Johann Joachim Quantz, Carl Heinrich Graun and Franz Benda. A meeting with Johann Sebastian Bach in 1747 in Potsdam led to Bach's writing The Musical Offering.
> 
> So I suppose, if he composed flute sonatas, he was probably familiar with sonata form.......for obvious reasons we can't go much earlier than him and his reign, though.


But the point I'm getting at, in the modern world, the Classical crowd emphasizes being knowledgeable about Sonata form to appreciate the music when I don't believe Kings/Queens that weren't educated in music knew it, but still found great joy in it.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Maybe, but does one need a degree in Oenology to appreciate a fine wine?

It's immensely difficult to generalise about the education various princes and princesses received, but one might say they were educated in the "finer things in life", and surely, more often than not, that would have included a musical education of some sort, especially from say the 1700s onwards?


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## Ras (Oct 6, 2017)

I have been taught that sonata form wasn't described and designated as such before sometime in the 19th century, so even Mozart didn't know what sonata form was even though he composed music in sonata form all the time...


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Royalty is like other folks, 'cept they're born with a title. Ho hum.
Of course, among the other folk are the well informed and the lesser informed, and all categories in between and out at the edges.
I know something about sonata form. I also know I enjoyed classical music that utilized the form long before I knew what the form itself was.
Some kings and queens knew sonata form, could compose with it, could describe it in technical terms and work with calculus, chemical elements, and rocketry. Other kings and queens couldn't pick their own noses or tie their own shoes.
I probably would be more helpful if I understood the point of the question.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

SONNET CLV said:


> Royalty is like other folks, 'cept they're born with a title. Ho hum.
> Of course, among the other folk are the well informed and the lesser informed, and all categories in between and out at the edges.
> I know something about sonata form. I also know I enjoyed classical music that utilized the form long before I knew what the form itself was.
> Some kings and queens knew sonata form, could compose with it, could describe it in technical terms and work with calculus, chemical elements, and rocketry. Other kings and queens couldn't pick their own noses or tie their own shoes.
> I probably would be more helpful if I understood the point of the question.


See post #3 to see the the point!


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Their musical education was likely to have been significantly better than that of the peasants shoveling manure in their stables.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Robert Pickett said:


> Maybe, but does one need a degree in Oenology to appreciate a fine wine?


I thought Oenology was bird-watching.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Ras said:


> I have been taught that sonata form wasn't described and designated as such before sometime in the 19th century, so even Mozart didn't know what sonata form was even though he composed music in sonata form all the time...


Mozart knew intimately the form later known as sonata form. Everyone did. They just didn't use the term.


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## Ras (Oct 6, 2017)

EdwardBast said:


> Mozart knew intimately the form later known as sonata form. Everyone did. They just didn't use the term.


Okay, thanks - I may have dozed off during class.


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

Merl said:


> I thought Oenology was bird-watching.


Through the bottom of a bottle perhaps!


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Sonata form (or its close relative 'rondo form') was perfectly understood in Mozart's time.

As to whether kings and queens knew it... really, who cares? Some probably did.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> But the point I'm getting at, in the modern world, the Classical crowd emphasizes being knowledgeable about Sonata form to appreciate the music when I don't believe Kings/Queens that weren't educated in music knew it, but still found great joy in it.


I'm a royal ***, and didn't know the sonata form exactly, but was still able to hear the results. Haydn was considered the father of the sonata form and used it to heighten drama.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I've read that music was an important part of the education of royalty in Europe, at least most places. Kings were often expected to play an instrument, and to play it well. They might also knock out a song or two (Henry VIII was notable) or even more extended compositions.

However there may also have been some cheating. Frederick the Great, who wrote quite a bit of music, is thought to have gotten a lot of "help" from his employee Johann Quantz who was ostensiblty his flute teacher but was also a well-known composer whose works are still played.

This sort of thing led Brahms to say (from my memory), "Never criticise the works of royalty -- you won't know what famous composer you're insulting."


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## fliege (Nov 7, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> But the point I'm getting at, in the modern world, the Classical crowd emphasizes being knowledgeable about Sonata form to appreciate the music when I don't believe Kings/Queens that weren't educated in music knew it, but still found great joy in it.


_That_ question I think many of us can answer from personal experience. For instance, I know I enjoyed classical music before I knew what sonata form was. Now that I do know what it is, I'm starting to listen out for it and and will think about forms if I'm analysing what I'm listening to intellectually. I don't like music more now because of this knowledge, it just gives me a different way to think about it when the mood takes me.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

Robert Pickett said:


> Frederick the Great of Prussia was a patron of music as well as a gifted musician who played the transverse flute. He composed more than 100 sonatas for the flute as well as four symphonies. The Hohenfriedberger Marsch, a military march, was supposedly written by Frederick to commemorate his victory in the Battle of Hohenfriedberg during the Second Silesian War. His court musicians included C. P. E. Bach, Johann Joachim Quantz, Carl Heinrich Graun and Franz Benda. A meeting with Johann Sebastian Bach in 1747 in Potsdam led to Bach's writing The Musical Offering.
> 
> So I suppose, if he composed flute sonatas, he was probably familiar with sonata form.......for obvious reasons we can't go much earlier than him and his reign, though.
> 
> Our own Queen Victoria was, by all accounts, a decent pianist (she had lots of them, not that that is conclusive evidence), and Prince Albert apparently composed as well. I get the impression they genuinely liked Mendelssohn, and the feeling was reciprocated.


Yes, Frederick the Great wrote some quite decent flute music, as well as being a leading patron of composers and of music generally. Here in the US, we can't boast of a statesman / musician with quite those accomplishments, although Benjamin Franklin wrote a nice string quartet and Thomas Jefferson was an enthusiastic classical violinist. The leading musical royal of the 20th century likely was Queen Elisabeth of Belgium, an avid amateur violinist and friend and patron of Eugene Ysaye.


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