# Haydn's piano compositions-how popular, how good?



## Clouds Weep Snowflakes

I got Haydn piano concertos two days ago-and happily so, as for some reason I don't have many of this composer's CDs; Haydn is considered one of the most important composers of the Classical period (or am I wrong?) and was even called "father of the symphony"; I love Haydn, and I love pianos, so it's not natural I would like these; any opinion(s)?


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## Bulldog

Haydn's piano sonatas are definitely in my top ten, maybe top 5.

I'm not as enthusiastic about his piano concertos.


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## wkasimer

Bulldog said:


> I'm not as enthusiastic about his piano concertos.


The D major, #11, is one of my favorite works.


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## Brahmsian Colors

Like Bulldog, I get a lot of satisfaction from Haydn's Piano Sonatas. The finest complete set, I feel, is the one by Walter Olbertz.


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## Mandryka

There are three types of piano compositions by Haydn - solo instrument (Variations, sonatas), concertos and chamber music. 

The solo music has been radically reappraised in recent years and new approaches to reading the score are now on record. These have a more incisive approach to articulation, and a richer palate of expressive embellishments than ever before. Tom Beghin is very much at the vanguard of this Haydn revolution and I recommend his Naxos recordings enthusiastically. Also Bart van Oort. 


The concertos I’ve not explored very much. I remember quite enjoying a recording by Mikhael Pletnev, but I can’t say more than that.

As far as chamber music goes, this is, as far as I know, dominated by the piano trios, and some people, people who’ve thought about it, rate them as highly as any music of this period. The later ones have particularly free, rich and independent piano parts. There are many fine recordings of these trios, my own favourite is by the ensemble Trio 1770.


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## bharbeke

In the sonatas, I really like Jando, Bavouzet, Buchbinder, and Derzhavina.


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## Bulldog

For the sonatas, I favor Brendel.


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## jegreenwood

For anyone interested, I just ordered Brautigam's cycle, on sale now at Presto. $38 (plus shipping) for 15 discs.


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## mark6144

Haydn's keyboard sonatas are among my favourites, and I think are particularly interesting because they span 40+ years during a time of important innovations in both classical musical style and keyboard instruments.

My personal favourites are the ones composed in the 1760s and associated with his "Sturm and Drang" period. Notably Hob XVI:18-20 and 44-46.


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## vtpoet

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> I got Haydn piano concertos two days ago-and happily so, as for some reason I don't have many of this composer's CDs...


First, just want to put in a plug for Derzhavina's complete Haydn Sonatas. I have 5 complete sets, two on the pianoforté, and hers are my favorite. She's almost like a female Glenn Gould. She doesn't just play the notes (though some prefer that).

My favorite of his piano concertos is H-XVIII9 in G Major mainly because I find the development sections of both the outer movements to be to the most interesting and virtuosic of his concerti. The slow movement is unusual for Haydn - truly beautiful. Usually, to me, his slow movements are just Allegros played slowly.






Haydn's earliest keyboard sonatas don't do that much for me. They're like his Op. 1 & 2 String Quartets (if those are even his)-borderline insipid, but somehow just tuneful enough to get away with it. His late piano sonatas though, they're a completely different world.

As a side note, if I were marooned on a desert island, I would take CPE Bach's Keyboard Sonatas & Keyboard Concertos over Haydn's. But for a handful of exceptions, I find CPE Bach's works to be of greater interest and accomplishment--- strictly in those genres.


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## Ras

*Bavouzet is releasing vol 8 in his cycle of Haydn's piano sonatas:
Bavouzet plays a modern piano.
I like what I have heard so far - but I only have vol. 1 on cd.









His recording of Haydn's piano concertos are also very good:
*


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## Guest

I love his piano sonatas - Marc-Andre Hamelin has three volumes of these wonderful works, which I highly recommend. Not his usual virtuoso repertoire, but he still does very well in them.

If you prefer the fortepiano, then Brautigam on BIS is a very good option.


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## Josquin13

Haydn is one of my favs.

A. Piano Sonatas: It's too bad that Glenn Gould died prematurely--just past his 50th birthday, as he was in the midst of recording a projected Haydn Piano Sonata cycle for CBS, and I expect it would have been fascinating. The sonatas that Gould did leave us, however--the 6 Late Piano Sonatas--are remarkable, and quite different from Alfred Brendel's interpretations on Philips (it's good to hear both):

--Glenn Gould: 



--Alfred Brendel--Piano Sonata in E flat, H.XVI No. 52:













In addition to Gould & Brendel, I find myself most reaching for the following individual recordings:

--Ivo Pogorelich (this is one of the Pogorelich's best recordings, IMO--he shows more verve & imagination in this music than most pianists):








https://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Piano-...ogorelich+haydn&qid=1559929276&s=music&sr=1-1

I've also particularly liked any (& all) of the Haydn Piano Sonata recordings from Hungarian pianists, Zoltan Kocsis and Dezso Ranki.

--Kocsis:



--Ranki: Ranki has made excellent Haydn recordings on Hungaroton, but this live 2015 recital is even better I think. Ranki dedicated the concert to Sviatoslav Richter, and I hope it will get released on CD, as Ranki is one of the great Haydn pianists, IMO: 




--Malcolm Bilson (How do you feel about Haydn on a fortepiano? I like the sound of Bilson's Schanz fortepiano here, and the playing is excellent, too):












https://www.amazon.com/Five-Keyboar...ds=bilson+haydn&qid=1559929223&s=music&sr=1-3






--Fazil Say:




https://www.amazon.com/Piano-Sonata...fazil+say+haydn&qid=1559929344&s=music&sr=1-1

--Nadia Reissenberg--these are 'classic' older recordings, from a pianist that should be better known than she is, IMO:












https://www.amazon.com/Nadia-Reisen...erg+haydn&qid=1559936409&s=music&sr=1-1-fkmr0

--Sviatoslav Richter: 




--Elizabeth Rich: Interestingly, Rich astutely alternates Haydn Piano Sonatas with sonatas by CPE Bach on this recording. As Haydn once said, "Whoever knows me well must have found out that I owe a great deal to Emanuel Bach": https://www.amazon.com/Haydn-C-P-Ba...beth+rich+haydn&qid=1559943841&s=music&sr=1-1

Most recently, I've been enjoying these 3 Haydn recordings--in audiophile sound on Hybrid SACD (which is always a pleasure to hear), but I probably wouldn't recommend the performances in preference to the above pianists. Even so, these are superb Haydn discs (especially from Yarden), and the first rate sound quality makes them all the more enjoyable:

--Einav Yarden:








https://www.amazon.com/s?k=haydn+piano+sonata+challege+classics&i=classical&ref=nb_sb_noss

--Enrique Bagaria: 




--Gary Cooper (fortepiano): https://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Piano-...ata+hybrid+sacd&qid=1559936516&s=music&sr=1-3

As for complete cycles of the piano sonatas, I've liked the following three:

--Christine Schornsheim--a complete cycle, on a variety of different keyboard instruments, chosen according to the years or period that Haydn composed each work:




https://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Haydn...hornsheim+haydn&qid=1559929381&s=music&sr=1-1

--John McCabe: 



--Walter Olbertz: 




Pianist Ilse von Alpenheim's Haydn LP cycle was fantastic, too, but I've never see it on CD (although it may have been issued obscurely, on a minor label): 




B. Haydn's Piano Trios are essential works, too. Pianist Rudolf Serkin once said that he considered Haydn's Piano Trios to be on the same sublime level as Mozart's Piano Concertos--which is of course high praise. They're special favorites of mine too. As I never tire of Haydn's inventiveness in this music. Here are the recordings that I most reach for:

1. The Beaux Arts Trio, a complete cycle on Philips, and 9 Piano Trios (drawn from the cycle) on 2 Penatone hybrid SACDs (which have better sound, IMO). The set won a Rosette award from the old Penquin Guide, and deservedly so (in my opinion the Beaux Arts Trio were at their best in Haydn & Mozart):








https://www.amazon.com/9-Piano-Trio...rios+haydn+sacd&qid=1559929902&s=music&sr=1-1
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7980051--haydn-9-piano-trios
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8261059--haydn-piano-trios
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7923630--haydn-piano-trios

2. Trio 1790--a complete cycle on period instruments:




https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Pia...ords=1790+haydn&qid=1559929757&s=music&sr=1-4

3. Vienna Piano Trio:




https://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Piano-...enna+trio+haydn&qid=1559929967&s=music&sr=1-2

4. Abegg Trio, performed on period instruments:
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8002064--haydn-piano-trios

5. La Gaia Scienza--"Haydn in London" (on period instruments):




https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7981100--haydn-in-london

6. Robert Levin, Vera Beths, Anner Bylsma--"The Last 4 Piano Trios" (on period instruments):




https://www.prestomusic.com/classic...dn-piano-trio-no-42-in-e-flat-major-hob-xv-30

7. Trio Wanderer (a possible cycle in progress):








https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8434856--haydn-piano-trios
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7979239--haydn-piano-trios-nos-39-43-44-45

8. Trio Goya (on period instruments): https://www.allmusic.com/album/the-heart-of-invention-piano-trios-by-haydn-mw0002005077

9. Patrick Cohen, Erich Höbarth, Christophe Coin (on period instruments): 




C. As for Haydn's Piano Concertos, I don't listen to them quite as much as the sonatas & trios, but when I do, I've enjoyed the following 5 recordings:

1. Homero Francesch (piano), Academy of St. Martin in the Field, conducted by Sir Neville Marriner: 




2. Ronald Brautigam, with Concerto Copenhagen, led by Lars-Ulrik Mortensen (on period instruments): https://www.amazon.com/Haydn-J-Pian...piano+concertos&qid=1559932050&s=music&sr=8-3

3. Casper Frantz (piano), Solistenensemble Kaleidoskop, (HIP chamber performances on modern instruments), Ars Produktion hybrid SACD (in state of the art audiophile sound):













https://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Keyboa...+frantz&qid=1559941158&s=music&sr=1-5-catcorr

4. Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli (piano), Zurich Chamber Orchestra, conducted by Edmond de Stoutz, EMI: 




5. Christine Schornsheim, with Neue Düsseldorfer Hofmusik, led by Mary Utiger (on period instruments): "8 Keyboard Concerti for harpsichord, piano, & organ":









https://www.amazon.com/8-Concerti-H...concertos&qid=1559932211&s=music&sr=1-1-fkmr0

But I wouldn't want to limit myself to just Haydn's works for piano. His string quartets, symphonies, masses, oratorios, scherzandi, divertimenti, baryton octets, lira concertos, violin & trumpet concertos, and notturni, are all wonderful music, too.


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## flamencosketches

^I got excited when I saw you had posted in this Haydn sonatas thread  I'm still working through your suggestions for Haydn symphonies, enjoying it all along the way. I have been wondering where to start with Haydn's great piano sonatas.


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## Itullian




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## flamencosketches

Itullian said:


>


I love what I've heard of her playing. And $50 really isn't a terrible price for the complete Haydn sonatas. But I can't justify it at this point in life. She never released any single disc releases of these, has she?


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## KenOC

I have several sets of the Haydn keyboard sonatas, and I like them all. Derzhavina's is probably my favorite -- of course I bought it a few years ago as a ten-buck download.


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## vtpoet

flamencosketches said:


> I love what I've heard of her playing. And $50 really isn't a terrible price for the complete Haydn sonatas. But I can't justify it at this point in life. She never released any single disc releases of these, has she?


In fact, she's just releasing a two CD set of Haydn's variations for keyboard and some arrangements. You can find it on Amazon or Presto Music.


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## mark6144

@Josquin13, thank you so much for posting all those recommendations! Plenty to explore there.


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## Gallus

I didn't enjoy Haydn's piano sonatas until I heard Richter's recordings of a few of them. Truly brilliant, just delightful music.


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## flamencosketches

Gallus said:


> I didn't enjoy Haydn's piano sonatas until I heard Richter's recordings of a few of them. Truly brilliant, just delightful music.


I'm waiting on this CD in the mail:









... which features Haydn's E major sonata No. 37. Haven't heard any of Richter's Haydn, but I love his unorthodox Mozart sonata recordings, so I'm excited to hear it.

From what I've heard, my favorite Haydn pianist is Alfred Brendel. Ms. Derzhavina seems a worthy contender. If I ever buy the complete set, hers is the one I will likely go for. I haven't heard any of Glenn Gould's Haydn sonatas, or not in a while anyway, but I have to check them out on Josquin13's recommendation.


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## PlaySalieri

I checked out many of Haydn's piano concertos after exchanging views with a you tube haydn fan who claimed they were near to Mozart's level.

They weren't of course - but mostly attractive music - not good enough to come back to. yes the one in D is the best of them.

The piano sonatas - I could never understand the fuss about them. The last three are quite good but the rest - fair but not great.


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## flamencosketches

flamencosketches said:


> I'm waiting on this CD in the mail:
> 
> View attachment 119868
> 
> 
> ... which features Haydn's E major sonata No. 37. Haven't heard any of Richter's Haydn, but I love his unorthodox Mozart sonata recordings, so I'm excited to hear it.
> 
> From what I've heard, my favorite Haydn pianist is Alfred Brendel. Ms. Derzhavina seems a worthy contender. If I ever buy the complete set, hers is the one I will likely go for. I haven't heard any of Glenn Gould's Haydn sonatas, or not in a while anyway, but I have to check them out on Josquin13's recommendation.


Yep, Richter is amazing in this sonata. Though I might say that his interpretation here was kind of aloof.


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## Bulldog

stomanek said:


> The piano sonatas - I could never understand the fuss about them. The last three are quite good but the rest - fair but not great.


Right, you don't understand. I find Haydn's piano sonatas just as rewarding as Mozart's.


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## flamencosketches

Bulldog said:


> Right, you don't understand. I find Haydn's piano sonatas just as rewarding as Mozart's.


I haven't heard many of them, but regarding the ones that I have, I agree.


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## Mandryka

stomanek said:


> The piano sonatas - I could never understand the fuss about them.


I enjoy Mozart sonatas much more too.


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## pjang23

Don't miss the F minor variations. In my opinion one of his best solo piano works.


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## hammeredklavier

PlaySalieri said:


> I checked out many of Haydn's piano concertos after exchanging views with a you tube haydn fan who claimed they were near to Mozart's level.
> The piano sonatas - *I could never understand the fuss about them.* The last three are quite good but the rest - fair but not great.


I agree completely.
I call this the *"Haydn Phenomenon"*. Everyone assumes Joseph is just as good as Mozart, since they're pretty much the only two that get mentioned on regular basis when it comes to the late 18th century, and Mozart seems like the "Elvis Presley" in this case - they'll always look for elements that would make Mozart seem "overrated" compared to Joseph, (I suspect there's also "rooting-for-the-underdog mentality" behind this, Joseph being the "underdog" in this case), but they'll never look for elements that would make Joseph seem "overrated" compared to, another contemporary of his, such as his own younger brother. 
Face it; Joseph wasn't even a virtuoso keyboardist and his way to write harmonies for expression in general is just average*, which makes a huge portion of his churned-out stuff; including his 100+ symphonies and 60+ string quartets sound the way they do (you all know what I'm talking about). It's even "proven" through history. *I would rather listen to J.C. Bach sonatas.* 
(*To be frank, if J.G. Naumann had written the Nelson mass, people wouldn't even know it existed.)



hammeredklavier said:


> Michael's Missa sancti hieronymi (1777)
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> (I like the harmonies at 13:24 and 14:34)
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> (5:32 and 7:15)





hammeredklavier said:


> For example, look at his ways to set the text "suscipe deprecationem" (which I think is the "emotional center" of the Gloria) to music in these cases, Joseph is, imv, clearly being a typical, uninspired kapellmeister:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To me, they're like something an uninspired kapellmeister who was "obliged to churn out" would have written. It just seems to me he can't think of something better, so he just keeps clinging to that melodic phrase "F-D-B(b)" and then bland chords to make his argument. (It seems rather unimaginative to me.) Compare them with, for example:


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## Bulldog

hammeredklavier said:


> I agree completely.
> https://www.talkclassical.com/13751-haydns-piano-sonatas-2.html#post2018490
> I call this the "Haydn Phenomenon". Everyone assumes Joseph is just as good as Mozart, since they're pretty much the only two that get mentioned on regular basis when it comes to the late 18th century, and Mozart seems like the "Elvis Presley" in this case - they'll always look for elements that would make Mozart seem "overrated" compared to Joseph, (I suspect there's also "rooting-for-the-underdog mentality" behind this, Joseph being the "underdog" in this case.) but they'll never look for elements that would make Joseph seem "overrated" compared to, another contemporary of his, such as his own brother.
> Face it. Joseph wasn't even a virtuoso keyboardist and his way to write harmonies in general is just average*, which makes a huge portion of his churned-out stuff; including his 100+ symphonies and 60+ string quartets sound the way they do (you all know what I'm talking about). It's even "proven" through history. *I would rather listen to J.C. Bach sonatas.*
> (*To be frank, if J.G. Naumann had written the Nelson mass, people wouldn't even know it existed.)


You are consistent, never missing an opportunity to dump on Haydn.


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## hammeredklavier

Bulldog said:


> You are consistent, never missing an opportunity to dump on Haydn.


I apologize. But in every one of these threads, people compare Joseph with Mozart to the latter's disadvantage. He doesn't need to be. He's a good composer on his own right.


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## Bulldog

hammeredklavier said:


> I apologize. But in every one of these threads, people compare Joseph with Mozart to the latter's disadvantage.


Given that both composers are famous, I would expect that some folks would prefer Haydn, some prefer Mozart.


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## Animal the Drummer

vtpoet said:


> First, just want to put in a plug for Derzhavina's complete Haydn Sonatas. I have 5 complete sets, two on the pianoforté, and hers are my favorite. She's almost like a female Glenn Gould. She doesn't just play the notes (though some prefer that).
> 
> My favorite of his piano concertos is H-XVIII9 in G Major mainly because I find the development sections of both the outer movements to be to the most interesting and virtuosic of his concerti. The slow movement is unusual for Haydn - truly beautiful. Usually, to me, his slow movements are just Allegros played slowly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Haydn's earliest keyboard sonatas don't do that much for me. They're like his Op. 1 & 2 String Quartets (if those are even his)-borderline insipid, but somehow just tuneful enough to get away with it. His late piano sonatas though, they're a completely different world.
> 
> As a side note, if I were marooned on a desert island, I would take CPE Bach's Keyboard Sonatas & Keyboard Concertos over Haydn's. But for a handful of exceptions, I find CPE Bach's works to be of greater interest and accomplishment--- strictly in those genres.


Interesting view on the piano concertos. I like the D major and the early F major one but the G major, though enjoyable all right, has never seemed as memorable to me.


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