# Who wrote the best 9th symphony?



## BenG

I have noticed that when a composer writes a 9th symphony it is usually there best and most famous symphony... So.. 

BEETHOVEN: One of the most famous pieces ever written. Has a climatic first movement followed by an very intense 2nd movement and then a heavenly 3rd movment that make you cry, and finally one of the most glorious finales ever written. Amazing. 
10/10 recording: Karajan, BPO

MAHLER: Just the first few minutes contain such beauty and sadness never felt before in music. Such a complex and beautiful first movement. The rondo burlesque is probably the most contrapuntally astonishing symphonic movement ever, and no words can describe the heartfelt adagio. What a piece!
9/10 recording: Bernstein, concertgebouw. 

BRUCKNER: Mystery, longing and death. What can top the Incredible intense coda of the first movemnt. The strange scherzo has some incredible loud and dramatic movements and some delicate quiet movements. And the adagio. Ho, the adagio. 
9/10 Giulini, concertgebouw 

SHUBERT: Such beauty contained in one symphony. Such a fantastic trio in the 3rd movemnt, Such a shubertian 2nd movement and extreme ecstasy in the finale. I dare you not to like this piece. 
8/10 recording: Bohm, WPO

These are just my views, what are yours?


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## Dimace

You are well informed! I have only to add, that a Schubert collection without* Hans Zender* (SWR S.O Baden Baden & Freiburg) isn't complete. You can also try Hans with Mahler. He is TOP und with high collectible value.


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## Art Rock

1. Bruckner (3 mvmt version)
2. Mahler
3. Dvorak

For me, these stand out from the pack. All three would make my top10 symphonies.

4. Arnold
5. Shostakovich

These two I love as well. After this it gets less clear, but there are plenty that I like. Worth mentioning for me are Aho, Atterberg, Raff, Schubert, Vaughan Williams and many others.


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## Becca

Which are the best, apples, kumquats or raspberries? 

Why does any one have to be better, they are very different works from different periods and with different compositional triggers.


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## BenG

Becca said:


> Which are the best, apples, kumquats or raspberries?
> Why does any one have to be better, they are very different works from different periods and with different compositional triggers.


Not the best, just your favourite.


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## MusicSybarite

Mahler and Bruckner are my absolute favorites because of their huge emotional power and monumental architecture. You can't get something better than these ones IMHO.


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## Pyotr

Beethoven, Dvořák & Schubert for me, in that order.


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## elgar's ghost

Apart from one my favourites have already been mentioned - to those I add Robert Simpson's.


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## Merl

OT: Me (I've just never actually had it recorded). It's a bit like Beethoven's 9th but instead of timpani I use wheelie-bins and the string parts are performed on comb and paper. :lol:


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## pianoville

Mahler 9 is my favorite because of it's emotional power. One of the only pieces that makes me cry. Definitely need to listen to the Bruckner more though.


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## tdc

For me Bruckner composed the best 9th, but if we call Mahler's _Das Lied Von Der Erde_ his true 9th I might consider it a tie. Next place would go to Schubert.


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## EdwardBast

Beethoven and then probably Miaskovsky or Shostakovich for me. I don't think the Mahler or Bruckner are very good.


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## Durendal

Hard to not pick Beethoven for this.


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## Brahmsian Colors

I don't particularly care to use the words, greatest and best. Rather, I enjoy listening most to 1---the Schubert Ninth and 2---the Mahler Ninth.


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## arpeggio

Difficult.

One of my favorites is the Mahler. I still can not say what makes it so special compared to the other eight.

I know of a least a dozen ninths.

Some of the ones that I think have not been mentioned:

William Schuman
Persichetti
Mennin 
Lloyd
Sessions
Maslanka (The only one for concert band)
Harris

The one I like the least is the Raff (has already been mentioned). I still enjoy it and think it is a fine symphony.


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## jdec

Beethoven, Mahler, Dvorak, Schubert and Bruckner composed the best 9ths.


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## DBLee

I greatly admire Beethoven's 9th, but I really have to be in the mood to listen to it beginning to end. 

I would pick Dvorak's and Schubert's as my personal favorite 9th symphonies. Both of them are very close to perfection, constantly engaging the listener.


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## Judith

Mine are

Dvorak
Beethoven
Shostakovich(favourite of all his symphonies)
Schubert
Bruckner(favourite of all his symphonies)

These are what springs to mind


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## MarkW

Havergal Brian


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## Tchaikov6

Judith said:


> Mine are
> 
> Dvorak
> Beethoven
> *Shostakovich(favourite of all his symphonies)*
> Schubert
> Bruckner(favourite of all his symphonies)
> 
> These are what springs to mind


I loved the Shostakovich, but unfortunately I played it in my orchestra for nearly a year (we had to keep repeating it at different concerts). By the end of that year, I had grown sick and tired of the piece. Perhaps I will love it someday again as much as I did.

My favorite five in order:
Dvorak
Beethoven
Bruckner
Schubert
Mahler


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## Josquin13

It should be acknowledged that most, if not all composers since 1824 (the year of the premiere of Beethoven's 9th) have approached their ninth symphony with an awareness of the universal acceptance of Beethoven's ninth as a 'masterpiece', and that it marked the end of his symphonic cycle. Therefore, it must be a daunting task for any composer to begin sketching out ideas for a 9th symphony. Not only because they can't help but be aware that they're competing with Beethoven (and subsequently Mahler, Bruckner, etc.), but also because 9ths have so often proven to be a composer's last symphony. It is known as "the curse of Beethoven" or "the curse of the ninth". To varying degrees, I expect most (post-Beethoven) composers face their own mortality while composing a 9th symphony--except those that were unusually prolific in their careers and reached this milestone earlier in their lives.

To my mind, composing a cycle of 9+ symphonies that stand the test of time is an extraordinary creative feat and achievement, as well as a major test of a composer's determination, persistence, endurance & sheer talent. Especially when you consider that so many masterful symphonic composers didn't make it to their 9ths: including Sibelius at 7 (with an 8th symphony rumored to have been tossed into the fireplace at Ainola), Brahms at 4, Schumann at 4, Mendelssohn at 5 numbered symphonies, with existing sketches for a 6th (if you don't count his 12 early string symphonies), Tchaikovsky at 6 (plus his 'Manfred' Symphony), Rachmaninoff 3 (plus The Bells, Op. 35), Saint-Saens 5 (although only 3 are numbered), Elgar 2, Nielsen 6, Bruch 3, Roussel 4, Szymanowski 4, Stravinsky 3 (plus his "Symphony of Psalms"), Ives 4 or 5--if you count "New England Holidays" (with the "Universe" Symphony left unfinished at his death), Magnard 4, Kokkonen 4 (with a 5th left unfinished), Hanson 7, Prokofiev 7, Lutoslawski 4, Honegger 5, Martinu 6, Scriabin 3, Berwald 4, Rimsky-Korsakov 3, Ropartz 5, etc.. All of which puts into perspective just how difficult it is to compose 9+ symphonies of a high musical quality.

Among those composers that did get to their 9th, a good number did so towards the end of their life--often at the very end, with the realization that death was close at hand--such as (1) Anton Bruckner, who didn't live to finish the final movement of his 9th; (2) Gustav Mahler, who didn't live to conduct his 9th: the 9th being the only one of his 9 completed symphonies that Mahler never conducted or heard performed, though he left instructions for Bruno Walter & Oskar Fried to do so, on subsequent nights. Curiously, Mahler did compose his "song symphony"--"Das Lied von der Erde"--after finishing 8 symphonies, but was so acutely aware of the "curse of the ninth" and that no major composer since Beethoven had gone past nine--at the time--that he decided not to make it a numbered symphony: although he did call it "A Symphony for Tenor, Alto, and Large Orchestra". Then, ironically, after Mahler finished his numbered 9th symphony, he died while composing his 10th; (3) Ralph Vaughan Williams, who died three weeks after the 2nd performance of his 9th, on the very day that the symphony was due to be recorded for the first time by Sir Adrian Boult; (4) Franz Schubert, who finished his "grand" 9th symphony in 1825: a year after the premiere of Beethoven's 9th, during a summer when Schubert's ill health unexpectedly went into remission, some three years before he passed away: hence Schubert's deathly illness had made him aware of his own mortality; (5) Malcolm Arnold, who though he lived until 2006, had been given only a year to live by his doctors prior to finishing his 9th Symphony in the 1986. While Antonin Dvorak, who lived another 11 years after composing his "New World" 9th Symphony, nevertheless, found himself under the spell of Beethoven's 9th during its composition--most evident in the Scherzo, and after that, never composed another symphony.

Considering that 9ths have often proven to be the concluding chapter of a composer's symphony cycle and life, I imagine most composers approach this work with a certain degree of trepidation, and awareness that it could be their last symphony, or swan song. Not surprisingly, the challenge has brought out the best in many composers, whose powers seem to become especially heightened and focused towards creating a masterpiece that will endure.

For this, we surely have Beethoven to thank, as he set the standard high. Although he was also the first composer to leave a 10th symphony unfinished at his death, a tradition that was regrettably followed by Schubert & Mahler.

Composer Arnold Schoenberg had this say on the subject:

"It seems that the Ninth is a limit. He who wants to go beyond it must pass away. It seems as if something might be imparted to us in the Tenth which we ought not yet to know, for which we are not ready. Those who have written a Ninth stood too close to the hereafter."

Hence, when I listen to a 9th symphony for the first time, I come to it with a sense of high expectation and excitement. I'm not usually disappointed either. Rather, I've found that composers often do rise to the challenge posed by Beethoven, to create one of their finest works.

Among modern composers, there have been a number of 9ths that are worth mentioning, not only as remarkable works, but also in the context of the points I've been making about "the curse of the 9th":

Take for example the Danish composer Vagn Holmboe. Holmboe composed his masterful 8th Symphony "Sinfonia boreale" in 1951. Yet it took him another 16 years to finish his 9th symphony in 1967 (a 5 movement work). To show how conscious Holmboe was of the importance of the 9th within his symphony cycle, during its 16 year gestation, Holmboe originally presented his "Sinfonia in memoriam", Op. 65, as his 9th Symphony in 1955, only to later withdraw it, and then presented the third Epilog of his "Four Symphonic Metamorphoses" as his 9th Symphony, only to again later withdraw that work, before finally finishing his numbered 9th in 1967. All this second guessing suggests that Holmboe felt an unusual degree of the pressure towards delivering a 9th of considerable stature, and that he must have found it a nerve racking task. Yet the struggle was worth it, as Holmboe's 9th & 10th symphonies represent an evolution in the composer's orchestral technique--which he called "symphonic metamorphosis". (Although Holmboe's 5th, 7th & 8th symphonies are certainly mature works in their own right, in my view). After that, Holmboe went on to compose a total of 13 symphonies.

https://www.chandos.net/products/catalogue/BI 0618

Among other modern composers, the 9th also brought out the best in American composer, Vincent Persichetti. Persichetti's Symphony No. 9, eerily entitled "Janiculum", after a hill in Rome, Italy, which is thought to be the site of St. Peter's crucifixion and an earlier center for the cult of the god Janus, was composed in 1969, and is a remarkable work, and masterfully orchestrated. It's Pershichetti's final symphony, so he too can be added to the long list of composers that didn't get beyond their 9th:






The 9th also brought out the best in American composer, William Schuman (although Schuman did go on to finish his 10th symphony):






As well as Vaughan Williams (who stopped at 9), Malcolm Arnold (who likewise stopped at 9), and Allan Pettersson (who went on to compose 8 more symphonies after his 9th):














As for my favorite post-Beethoven 9ths, here's a list of my top 20 (with Beethoven's 9th included):

1. L.V. Beethoven
2. Gustav Mahler
3. Anton Bruckner
4. Franz Schubert
5. Antonin Dvorak
6. Ralph Vaughan Williams
7. Eduard Tubin: his "Sinfonia semplice": 



8. Vagn Holmboe
9. Vincent Persichetti
10. William Schuman
11. Allan Pettersson
12. Dmitri Shostakovich
13. Ib Nørholm (the only living composer on my list, with 12 symphonies now completed): 



14. Peter Mennin (yet another composer that didn't go beyond 9): 



15. Alexandre Tansman (who likewise didn't get to his 10th). 
16. Edmund Rubbra: his "Sinfonia Sacra, op. 140: 



17. Roy Harris
18. Malcolm Arnold: 



19. Robert Simpson: https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDA66299. Here's the final movement: 



20. My last pick is a tough choice, but after some indecisiveness, I'll go with Hans Werner Henze's choral 9th, entitled "Den Helden und Märtyrern des deutschen Antifaschismus gewidmet": 




Some honorable mentions (that I was considering for my last pick, alongside Henze's 9th): Kurt Atterberg (who was another composer that didn't get to 10, his 9th being another choral symphony: 



), Darius Milhaud, Julius Röntgen:



 , Sir Andrzej Panufnik: 



, Joachim Raff, whose 9th is entitled, "In Summer": 



, and Havergal Brian: 



.

For anyone who's interested, here's a (I hope valuable, useful) list of Romantic era & modern/contemporary composers that have reached the milestone of a 9th symphony: Peter Maxwell Davies 10 (although I prefer Davies' 10th to his 9th:



), Peter Mennin 9, Robert Simpson 11, Roger Sessons 9, Leif Segerstam 327 (& counting, no, that's not a misprint), Kurt Atterberg 9, Rued Langgaard 16, Eduard Tubin 11 (though Tubin's 11th was left unfinished at his death), Phillip Glass 11 (& counting), Alan Hovhaness 67 (his 9th is entitled "St. Vartan"), Hilding Rosenberg 9 (nine, if we count his withdrawn no. 0), Erkki-Sven Tüür 9 (& counting), Darius Milhaud 12, Louis Theodore Gouvy 9, Henry Cowell 20, Alexandre Tansman 9, Roy Harris 15, Edmund Rubbra 11, Dmitri Shostakovich 15, Vagn Holmboe 13, William Schuman 10, Allan Pettersson 17, Mieczyslaw Weinberg 20, George Lloyd 12 (who remained undaunted by the curse of the 9th: 



), Sir Andrzej Panufnik 10, David Diamond 11 (



), Malcolm Arnold 9, Hans Werner Henze 10, Ib Nørholm 12 (& counting), David Matthews 9 (& counting), Vincent Persichetti 9, Kalevi Aho at 17 (& counting), Louis Spohr 10, Joachim Raff 11, Julius Röntgen 21, Nikolai Myaskovsky 27, Havergal Brian 32, and Alfred Schnittke at 9 (yet another victim of "the curse of the ninth", although there is some disagreement about whether Schnittke finished his 9th, due to suffering a stroke and being forced to write with his left hand, which made the score difficult to decipher. Alexander Raskatov was asked to "reconstruct" the symphony.)

Walter Piston came close at 8, as did Einar Englund at 7, Einojuhani Rautavaara at 8, and George Rochberg at 6. Sir Michael Tippett finished at 4; as did Witold Lutoslawski. Kryztopf Penderecki is currently at 8, and apparently intends to write a 9th. Aulus Sallinen composed his 8th Symphony in 2001, but so far no 9th. Finally, Per Norgard is up to 8 now, as of 2011, while Paavo Heininen is at 6, as of 2015, Charles Wuorinen at 8, as of 2006, John Corigliano at 2, Wolfgang Rihm at 2, John Harbison at 6, Arvo Part at 4, Harri Vuori at 2, and Tobias Picker at 3. Surprisingly, Magnus Lindberg hasn't composed a symphony to date (though, like Vuori, he studied with Rautavaara and Heininen--both formidable symphonic composers). Nor has Kaija Saariaho, Esa-Pekka Salonen, or Anders Hillborg, either.

Prior to Beethoven, there were a number of prominent composers that reached 9 (& in some cases, went well beyond it): including Michael Haydn at 41, W.A.Mozart at 41 numbered symphonies (with additional symphonies of doubtful authenticity--maybe around 50 in total?), F.J. Haydn 104 (actually it's 106), Johann Christian Bach at around 23 (but with many lost symphonies), Carl Phillip Emanuel Bach at around 20, Johann Stamitz 58, Joseph Martin Kraus at 12 (though its actually over 20, since many of his symphonies are now lost), and Giovanni Battista Sammartini at about 70. However, in the case of Kraus, Sammartini, and both J.C. & C.P.E. Bach, I'm not confident that I could accurately say which symphony is their 9th (due to their lost symphonies & the numbering of fragments, alternative movements, etc,). Wilhelm Friedemann Bach stopped at 8, but that had nothing to do with 'the curse of ninth', or did it?

Here's a list of my favorite 5 pre-Beethoven 9ths:

1. W.A. Mozart:



2. F.J. Haydn: 



3. Michael Haydn:



4. Joseph Martin Kraus--his Symphony in D major, VB 143?: 



5. Giovanni Battista Sammartini--J-C 4, or is it J-C 9?:


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## KenOC

A lengthy but interesting treatise! But a question. You write, "(4) Franz Schubert, who finished his "grand" 9th symphony in 1825: a year after the premiere of Beethoven's 9th..."

I've read that the "lost" 7th Symphony of Schubert probably never existed. If that's so, then wouldn't Schubert have written only eight symphonies? Still not bad for somebody who died at 31!


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## Azol

Bruckner and Mahler.
Otherwise, I would say the greatest Ninth hasn't been composed yet... :tiphat:


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## DeepR

Bruckner, Anton Bruckner.


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## Josquin13

KenOC writes, "I've read that the "lost" 7th Symphony of Schubert probably never existed. If that's so, then wouldn't Schubert have written only eight symphonies? Still not bad for somebody who died at 31!"

It depends on who's numbering the symphonies, as different editors have given Schubert's symphonies different numbers, and there have been disagreements about which to number or not. Schubert left all of his last 4 symphonies in various states of incompletion, except for the "Great" symphony in C major, D. 944, plus there are fragments to symphonies that he didn't finish. So it can get confusing.

For instance, Johannes Brahms, working as an editor for Breitkopf & Härtel, numbered the "Great" C major D 944 as Schubert's 7th Symphony, and his 8th as the D. 759 "Unfinished". While musicologist Sir George Grove numbered the "Great" C major as Schubert's 8th Symphony and his D. 759 "Unfinished" as his 7th Symphony. & so on. In total, there are 7 completed symphonies by Schubert (which includes the "Great" C major), plus an unfinished 7th in E major, D. 729 & 8th in B minor, D. 759, and piano sketches for three movements to an unfinished "last" symphony in D major, D. 936a (his 10th), which was recorded by Schubert's brother, Ferdinand, before the composer's death. The 10th is the work scholars sometimes refer to as Schubert's "lost" symphony. Plus, there are additional fragments to other symphonies as well, if I remember right (D. 615 and D. 708a).

The generally accepted order of Schubert's symphonies today is as follows (according to Wikipedia):

No. 1, D major, D. 82
No. 2, B-flat major, D. 125
No. 3, D major, D. 200
No. 4, C minor "Tragic", D. 417
No. 5, B-flat major, D. 485
No. 6, C major, "Little C major"
No. 7, E major, D. 729--all four movements are finished in sketches, but Schubert didn't score them entirely--which has resulted in various completions by others--John Francis Barnett in 1881, Felix Weingartner in 1934, and Brian Newbould in 1980. The manuscript was bequeathed to the Royal College of Music in London by Sir George Grove. Interestingly, it had been previously owned by Felix Mendelssohn, who'd been given the manuscript by Schubert's brother.
No. 8, B minor, D. 759 "Unfinished"--2 complete movements, and an unfinished Scherzo 3rd movement.
No. 9, C major, D. 944 "Great" C major
No. 10, D major, D. 936a--there are piano sketches for three movements.

As for the "lost" 7th that "never existed", I believe you're referring to the "Gmunden-Gastein Symphony", which was once thought to be lost, and was called the 7th (as with the 9th), but today it is thought to be identical with the "Great" C major Symphony, since Schubert composed his "grand" symphony in Gastein.

I hope that I've sufficiently answered your question, Ken.


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## Don Fatale

The best 9th? I'm afraid I'm not qualified to answer that, and I don't know who is.

If the consensus is Beethoven, then so be it. The reasons are obvious.

Personal favourite? Schubert. It resonates so deeply for me, particularly the wondrous scherzo. I saw it live last week, and I was reassured that I wasn't the only person wiping a little irritation from their eye.


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## Olias

Haydn's 9th is underrated.....


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## Dimace

*Liszt's Faust Symphony is the best 9th ever composed!* What? YES! Liszt has composed before the FS, eight more symphonies, which threw them into his waste basket, because of his sick perfectionism! :lol:

Ok... *I pick Beethoven and Dvorak.* Very conservative choices but I'm sure that nobody accepted my Liszt super original one.


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## Woodduck

Beethoven, then Bruckner. Unlike some listeners, I have no problem with the Beethoven's fourth movement, and no problem with the Bruckner lacking one. In both works I favor Furtwangler.


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## Larkenfield

Holiday antics. The best 9th hasn’t been written yet. It’s currently being composed by an alien with three ears and six fingers on each hand to play Rachmaninoff. His advantage is that he's not only deaf, for better concentration, but incontinent, which somehow helps him hear better and work faster. When completed, all other 9ths will be forgotten and Beethoven will no longer be the primary topic of conversation. Bruckner, Schubert, and Mahler will also be superseded. Have fun on Thursday and don’t step on any crop circles.


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## Rogerx

Mahler, who else.


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## PlaySalieri

I would go for Schubert - then Dvorak - Mahler.

Beethoven? It's a magnificent work but I cant bear the thought of listening to it.

If you discount the immature works, Mozart's 9th (32, 33,34,35,36,38,39,40,41) should really be his last symphony so I will go for that - after all - what's in a number.


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## gellio

Pyotr said:


> Beethoven, Dvořák & Schubert for me, in that order.


Switch Schubert and Dvorak and we're the same person.


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## Steerpike

Bruckner's 9th is simply majestic. I still don't know whether we should rue the fact that he never got to finish it, or be grateful because it's just fine as it is and would most likely not have been improved by a 4th movement.


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## Mifek

Dvořák, followed by Beethoven, and then Bruckner.


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## gellio

1. Beethoven
2. Schubert
3. Dvorak


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## JasonHolloway

It is very difficult to answer this. Because everyone will do some kind of magics in their compositions of symphony 9. According to me Ludwig Van Beethoven has done an amazing symphony 9 during 1800. The composition is really mind blowing and it is regarded as one of the best achievement in the field of western music. One more thing about Beethoven is, he is a deaf but he was having the ability to captivate the minds of the listeners through his symphonies. Even now the most held stage performances of symphony 9 are of Beethoven's compositions.


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## gellio

JasonHolloway said:


> It is very difficult to answer this. Because everyone will do some kind of magics in their compositions of symphony 9. According to me Ludwig Van Beethoven has done an amazing symphony 9 during 1800. The composition is really mind blowing and it is regarded as one of the best achievement in the field of western music. One more thing about Beethoven is, he is a deaf but he was having the ability to captivate the minds of the listeners through his symphonies. Even now the most held stage performances of symphony 9 are of Beethoven's compositions.


I always have thought what is so great about Beethoven is *HE* is in his music. I have such an emotional reaction to his works. I can't explain it. When I listen to the 5th Piano Concerto, I feel such immense joy during the 1st and 3rd movements, yet I also feel the deepest sorrow I have ever felt during the 2nd movement, and I feel that every time. At first I thought it was just because I think it's the single most beautiful piece of music ever written, but that's not it - all classical music is beautiful. I find beauty in works I don't even like. I don't know what it is. I can't explain it. I feel so dorky saying that, but it's true and I just can't explain it. It makes me seriously wonder if there's something so deeply painful in my subconscious. Something that I am suppressing. Something that this music brings to the surface. Something that this music sets free.

I feel the same about other pieces of Beethoven's music, although never to the depths of the second movement of the 5th Piano Concerto. In the 9th Symphony, I run between sadness and pure joy. The first movement of the 14th Piano Sonata moves me. Nothing, and I mean nothing, brings me more joy than the 4th movement of the 5th Symphony.

Maybe it's because Beethoven poured his own life, his struggles, his sorrow, his agony and his joy into his music. I just love the guy so darn much.


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## David Phillips

RVW's 9th is my favourite - I particularly like the way Previn conducts the slow movement.


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## caters

Beethoven
Dvorak

I love Beethoven's 9th symphony because it is extensive(1.5 hours for 1 single performance) and has perhaps the best musical interpretation of joy there is. I also find it interesting how Beethoven is able to make a lot of sudden key shifts(like Dm -> Bb -> Dm -> Cm for example). It would sound extremely weird on the piano going from Dm to Cm with no bridging Gm harmony. But with the orchestral texture, it sounds all natural having these direct modulations. I find that these 3 symphonies of his are equally dramatic: Eroica, Victory(nickname for his 5th symphony), and 9th symphony but they all approach the drama in different ways.

Dvorak's 9th symphony is so beautiful. It is also the symphony with the easiest piano transcription if you are talking about single movements. So much lyricism, recapitulation almost nonexistent in the first movement, 5 themes in a single movement, relatively little development. Dvorak's 9th and Beethoven's 5th are like on opposite sides of the spectrum when it comes to development and lyricism.

Beethoven's 5th has a ton of development, even outside of the development section of the first movement. And the theme being developed is just 4 notes in a descending third, that famous Fate Motif. Very little lyricism even in the second movement. Dvorak's 9th on the other hand has just a little bit of development, long themes, and lots of themes and lyricism.


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## DavidA

Beethoven, Schubert, Bruckner, Dvorak, Mahler, RVW.....etc....

I don't argue which is the best - I just enjoy them!


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## Pat Fairlea

David Phillips said:


> RVW's 9th is my favourite - I particularly like the way Previn conducts the slow movement.


Yes. I'm glad someone has spoken up for this strange, lovely piece.


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## Guest

Becca said:


> Which are the best, apples, kumquats or raspberries?
> 
> Why does any one have to be better, they are very different works from different periods and with different compositional triggers.


Apples, by far.


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## starthrower

DavidA said:


> Beethoven, Schubert, Bruckner, Dvorak, Mahler, RVW.....etc....
> 
> I don't argue which is the best - I just enjoy them!


There are a lot of good 9ths. I'll add Lajtha, and Panufnik.


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