# Can you tell the difference between a cheap and an expensive instrument?



## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Not sure whether this debate has raged here yet, so here are some vids as introduction:


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

depends on who is playing them.....a great player playing a cheap instrument will probably sound better than a weak player playing a great instrument.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

——- duplicate post ——-


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Speaking from personal experience, it’s not only the sound of the instrument that matters but the feel of it and its visceral vibrations--its resonance that can be felt in the hands and fingers. That’s when there’s a real connection with the instrument—any instrument, strings, brass, woodwinds—and even young musicians should keep in mind both attributes. 

The right instrument should be inspiring to the player and offer the greatest emotional expression possible, which becomes more important the farther one goes as a life-long musician. When the instrument is unable to convey the emotional expression of what you’re trying to say, it may then be time for an upgrade. 

It’s necessary to try each one because no two instruments are ever the same, even if they’re listed as exactly the same make and model. There are always unmistakably subtle differences that have to be experienced to be believed. 

The quality of feel and sound is not always dependent on price. I had a $700 Artley alto flute that played like a dream, and had a $2000 Haynes flute that I never enjoyed playing. I have a $4000 Selmer Mark VI alto saxophone with incredibly rich overtones because of the brass that was used to make it. Some of the Selmer saxophones were said to be made out of the brass shell casings from World War II!—and that’s supposedly what gives them a unique sound quality that’s so highly prized.

Historical pedigree is another study in and of itself for vintage instruments. Instruments with the story behind them are usually valued and prized even more.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Depends on so many factors. There are bassoonists who pay upwards of $40,000 and wait 5 years for delivery of the mythical Heckel bassoon - but frankly, far less expensive and easier to get instruments by Fox, Puchner and Moosmann sound every bit as good - and in some cases better! 
Here's a true story: I toured China a year ago playing 12 concerts over three weeks. I didn't want to take my expensive bassoon, so I took a cheap Linton that I picked up on Ebay for $300. Was is as good as my pro model? Nope, I could tell just playing it - the keywork was noticeably inferior. Linton's have a bad reputation, likely deserved. But I spend a month working with it, making reeds suitable and took it along. The first rehearsal one violinist came up and said how much she loved the sound of my new bassoon! So much sweeter than my other one. In China, several students came to me and asked what bassoon I had - it sounded so great. Not that I'm some super-virtuoso, but maybe a weaker player couldn't have gotten away with it, but it worked for me. My pro model cost 50 times as much as the cheap, decades old, used Linton, yet most people couldn't tell the difference. Of course I was glad to get home and use the good one again, but that Linton is a great backup.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

Can I tell the difference between a cheap mandolin and an expensive mandolin. Yes. Every time.

Can I tell the difference between an expensive mandolin and a very expensive mandolin, sometimes, not always.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Okay..I got the Brannen flute right and the Selmer, but had the Yamahas in the wrong order. So at least that's one better than the girl in the video.



Larkenfield said:


> Speaking from personal experience, it's not only the sound of the instrument that matters but the feel of it and its visceral vibrations... its resonance that can be felt in the hands and fingers...
> 
> The quality of feel and sound is not always dependent on price. I had a $700 Artley alto flute that played like a dream, and had a $2000 Haynes flute that I never enjoyed playing...


This is very true. For a long time I played on an okay flugelhorn; mostly because I couldn't afford another one and because it was a gift. When I later bought a second-hand vintage model I felt as though it just fit. Not particularly because it was 'vintage', but it just happened to feel right. I've had others since, but these have now gone and the second-hand one is the one I've kept.

I see you're a flautist! I'm not quite as good on the flute, but I play and have played in amateur wind bands. I think I've been luckier in this area; the first flute I got (for a ridiculously low price) was an all-silver Gemeinhardt C flute. I still have it and I use this most. The other is a (second-hand) Yamaha open-hole model. Far more expensive, but I use it less, though this may reflect my skill level more than anything, I find it harder to play.
I've tried a Trevor James, but the one in the price range I could go for didn't feel right.


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

My new purchase two and a half years ago was a major upgrade in violin, five times the purchase price of my previous instrument. I could instantly tell the difference. My new purchase is so much more alive in higher positions, I can play those very high notes in tune now. 

But could I tell the difference between a professional playing a Strad and a professional playing an instrument 1/100 the price. I'm not sure. I will never play a Strad but if I were given the chance, would I tell the difference? I'm not sure. 

I know that some, but not all, of these instruments are being sold at auction to investors and we don't hear these fine instruments again. Some these instruments are on loan to professionals to play, but some are not. Some of these instruments are essentially out of circulation and not heard from again, until it's time to cash in on their investments. I think an instrument should be heard, and not simply an investment. 

When it comes time for me to sell my violin because I'm too old and feeble to play, I should get my money back and more. So for me it's an investment, and I got to hear and play this fine instrument.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

When I was young I played the violin using a cheap violin. I sounded awful. I got a more expensive violin for Christmas. I still sounded awful.


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## Joe B (Aug 10, 2017)

Bach - Solo Violin Sonatas by 

Itzhak Perlman's "Bach-Solo Violin Sonatas" was recorded with two different violins. I would not be able to identify the sound with a particular maker, but I do hear the differences between the instruments.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

mbhaub said:


> Depends on so many factors. There are bassoonists who pay upwards of $40,000 and wait 5 years for delivery of the mythical Heckel bassoon - but frankly, far less expensive and easier to get instruments by Fox, Puchner and Moosmann sound every bit as good - and in some cases better!
> Here's a true story: I toured China a year ago playing 12 concerts over three weeks. I didn't want to take my expensive bassoon, so I took a cheap Linton that I picked up on Ebay for $300. Was is as good as my pro model? Nope, I could tell just playing it - the keywork was noticeably inferior. Linton's have a bad reputation, likely deserved. But I spend a month working with it, making reeds suitable and took it along. The first rehearsal one violinist came up and said how much she loved the sound of my new bassoon! So much sweeter than my other one. In China, several students came to me and asked what bassoon I had - it sounded so great. Not that I'm some super-virtuoso, but maybe a weaker player couldn't have gotten away with it, but it worked for me. My pro model cost 50 times as much as the cheap, decades old, used Linton, yet most people couldn't tell the difference. Of course I was glad to get home and use the good one again, but that Linton is a great backup.


Greatly enjoyed reading this!


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

Listening via my PC to the flute video I thought the high range on the cheap Yamaha sounded brittle but am not sure if that is due to my deteriorating hearing?


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I know I prefer pianos that have more bass in them. It brings out the darkness and depth of my somber compositions. I've been eyeing a Steinway for a while now at a Willis music.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I watched the first three flutes and thought the second one sounded best.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

On fretted instruments: 

One can often avoid the frets with slightly off intonation depending on where they are and play brilliantly, such that nobody could tell, either that the instrument is compromised or that the player is compensating.

An instrument of perfect intonation is often unappreciated even by the player, who may never have ventured all the way up the neck to appreciate it.

That said, the intonation of modern instruments is amazing, at most price points. We live in a golden age of luthiery.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

JeffD said:


> On fretted instruments:
> 
> One can often avoid the frets with slightly off intonation depending on where they are and play brilliantly, such that nobody could tell, either that the instrument is compromised or that the player is compensating.
> 
> ...


I thought a luthier was a violin maker?


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

stomanek said:


> I thought a luthier was a violin maker?


All string instruments consisting of a soundbox and fingerboard/neck (whatever it's called).


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## Taplow (Aug 13, 2017)

I really dislike these "cheap versus expensive" comparisons on Youtube. We will never be able to appreciate the subtleties of either instrument listening to it through some (presumably) cheap microphone, in a video that has been highly compressed. The only way to truly tell the difference is to be in the room.

When I graduated to a full size violin as a child, my parents went to a luthier who was a family friend (actually the father of my teacher). He was inexperienced and did not make good instruments. To him it was just a hobby. But I felt pressured into accepting one of his violins and did not feel as though I had the power to say no. Not that I would have known the difference at the time. But playing this instrument over the next few years just left me totally uninspired. It was clumsy and difficult to articulate, a constant struggle. I just never felt that it was a part of me, and it never sounded good, just heavy and dull. Had I gotten a really nice instrument that I felt a connection with then I may well have continued playing once I finished school and even turned to music as a career.

A few years ago when I decided to pick up the violin again, I went hunting for an instrument. I could have paid as much as $20K, and actually found an instrument in that price range that was very tempting, at least on paper. But I eventually settled for one that cost only $6.5K. I never expected to buy a French violin, but with the right bow this thing sung like a nightingale and felt very comfortable in my hands. In fact I have never felt this comfortable with an instrument. So Larkenfield's comment that it's just as much, if not more, about feel really resonated with me. It doesn't matter that the violin I ended up buying is a lot cheaper ... it _feels_ like a million bucks to me. Getting to brag to my friends that it's 200 years old with a pedigree is nice, but the feel and sound is way more important to me than any price tag.


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## Harmonie (Mar 24, 2007)

Generally I'm not too good at this. It wasn't until I played the oboe where I really saw the difference. I got to sample a Loree at a college oboe festival I went to. I was so impressed with the instrument, I was in heaven. The instrument was so smooth, and played with so little resistance. The dealer practically had to pry it out of my hands.

*sigh* If only I could have gotten one.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

a fine instrument will have an even scale for sound and intonation, but of course, fine adjustments must be made by the player. with a fine instruent,, these adjustments will be possible. with a poor quality instrument, not so...there are problems and aberrations that are simply too extreme..for me, bassoon is my professional life.....the finest Heckel bassoons have a beautifully centered sound...that retains its center and purity at the softest and loudest dynamic levels...when one has played a fine Heckel, you develop the sense, the "ear" of how to produce a fine sound. this will apply when you play a cheaper, less quality instrument. a fine bassoon player, using his/her own reeds/bocal, can make a very good sound on a Kohlert, Schreiber or Puchner instrument, because the finest quality sound, tone, is already in mind. the player knows what the ideal is. it carries over to whatever instrument you might play....those who have not had access to the best are missing this experience.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Heck148 said:


> a fine instrument will have an even scale for sound and intonation, but of course, fine adjustments must be made by the player. with a fine instruent,, these adjustments will be possible. with a poor quality instrument, not so...there are problems and aberrations that are simply too extreme..for me, bassoon is my professional life.....the finest Heckel bassoons have a beautifully centered sound...that retains its center and purity at the softest and loudest dynamic levels...when one has played a fine Heckel, you develop the sense, the "ear" of how to produce a fine sound. this will apply when you play a cheaper, less quality instrument. a fine bassoon player, using his/her own reeds/bocal, can make a very good sound on a Kohlert, Schreiber or Puchner instrument, because the finest quality sound, tone, is already in mind. the player knows what the ideal is. it carries over to whatever instrument you might play....those who have not had access to the best are missing this experience.


And then the debates begin about which era of Heckels are the best - Pre-War? Some players drool over the 1920-1930 series and pooh-pooh the offerings from 1970 on. And the bocals!!! "Can't anyone except Heckel make a good bocal?" is what my teacher said - then I played a Leitzinger and whadaya know, some one can. That's one area that even modestly talented people can instantly identify: a good bocal. For those of you who aren't bassoon players, it's the tube connecting the reed to the bassoon. Most are in the tradition S-shape, but then one teacher wanted me to try the newer English L-shape. Too much to think about...


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Taplow said:


> I really dislike these "cheap versus expensive" comparisons on Youtube. We will never be able to appreciate the subtleties of either instrument listening to it through some (presumably) cheap microphone, in a video that has been highly compressed. The only way to truly tell the difference is to be in the room.
> 
> When I graduated to a full size violin as a child, my parents went to a luthier who was a family friend (actually the father of my teacher). He was inexperienced and did not make good instruments. To him it was just a hobby. But I felt pressured into accepting one of his violins and did not feel as though I had the power to say no. Not that I would have known the difference at the time. But playing this instrument over the next few years just left me totally uninspired. It was clumsy and difficult to articulate, a constant struggle. I just never felt that it was a part of me, and it never sounded good, just heavy and dull. Had I gotten a really nice instrument that I felt a connection with then I may well have continued playing once I finished school and even turned to music as a career.
> 
> A few years ago when I decided to pick up the violin again, I went hunting for an instrument. I could have paid as much as $20K, and actually found an instrument in that price range that was very tempting, at least on paper. But I eventually settled for one that cost only $6.5K. I never expected to buy a French violin, but with the right bow this thing sung like a nightingale and felt very comfortable in my hands. In fact I have never felt this comfortable with an instrument. So Larkenfield's comment that it's just as much, if not more, about feel really resonated with me. It doesn't matter that the violin I ended up buying is a lot cheaper ... it _feels_ like a million bucks to me. Getting to brag to my friends that it's 200 years old with a pedigree is nice, but the feel and sound is way more important to me than any price tag.


I am so sorry that you had to endure a poor quality instrument just because you had the misfortune to have a teacher whose dad makes violins. This type if thing is more common than you think. The only way to buy a violin is try many from many different makers and choose what suits you. It's odd that parents would rather not upset a music teacher and have the child pay a heavy price instead. I would rather lose a music teacher than buy the wrong instrument.

A dealer in high end instruments told me after £10K for a violin - diminishing returns applies.


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## T Son of Ander (Aug 25, 2015)

Dan Ante said:


> Listening via my PC to the flute video I thought the high range on the cheap Yamaha sounded brittle but am not sure if that is due to my deteriorating hearing?


I agree. Actually, I thought the higher range on all of them except the expensive one sounded thin, tinny, brittle. In the lower ranges, I had a hard time telling them apart. Also, she had a hard time with dynamics on the chepeast one.

The flute video was interesting, but I thought the violin one was silly. He used el cheapo, then jumped up to a $100K+ violin. Of course the cheap one sounded awful. The others all sounded great to me. There is no way I could have told the difference between any of them but the first.


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## T Son of Ander (Aug 25, 2015)

Yes, of course the only way to really tell is to be in the room, not watch on a video. But, you should be able to make some comparisons if they are all played in the same conditions.

As some have mentioned, a lot of it is also the player, of course. With some time with the instrument, a really good player can make a cheaper violin sound much better than it is. A hack could make the best violin in the world sound awful. Then there's the room, recording equipment, etc. With a stringed instrument, you have to also take into account the bow. I imagine a bad bow could ruin the sound of a good violin.


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## Chris (Jun 1, 2010)

A true virtuoso will bring out the difference:


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

mbhaub said:


> And then the debates begin about which era of Heckels are the best - Pre-War? Some players drool over the 1920-1930 series and pooh-pooh the offerings from 1970 on. And the bocals!!! "Can't anyone except Heckel make a good bocal?".


Oh yes, much discussion over best vintage years for Heckels....the pre-war ones are fine, but many bassoonists I know preferred them for chamber music...smaller bore, tone holes....some had them re-bored...don't really have much feedback on the success of this procedure. after the war, probably in the early 50s, Heckel began producing instruments with bigger bore, and tone holes, since orchestras were getting bigger and louder. don't have my Heckel production chart handy...I'm guessing this is about 10,000 series...yes bocals...there are at least 4 variables for every bocal variety....bore length and shape, material used in composition, and plating.


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