# Brahms Symphony No. 4



## linz

This has some of the richest orchestration ever conceived. The themes themselves are simple, such as the opening violin theme in the first movement, but with flawless orchetral texture; proving it not Debussy or Webern the pioneer of 'timbre'(tone color), but Brahms. The horn theme in the first movement is also simple yet orginal and grandious. The very nature of academic and personal fulfillment of the traditional sound world was his highest calling. In the third movement, we are reminded of Beethoven's 7th which Wagner called "A symphony devoted to the spirit of dance." Fourth movement is general thought as one of the peaks of thematical development along dramatic lines.


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## Topaz

*Linz:* I'm 100% with you on this. It's such a wonderful symphony in all respects: melodic, carefully crafted interwoven textures. You've said it. I reckon nothing as good has been written since, except possibly Mahler 5 and Sibelius 2/5. My preferred version used to be Klemperer, but I recently acquired Harnoncourt/BPO, which has rather better acoustics (more modern equipment).

Topaz


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## Edward Elgar

Brahms has to be one of the best symphonists of all time. He is definatly my favourite. I would argue he was greater than Beethoven because of his melodic skill, and the way in which he uses every instrument to its full potential - especially the string section. I think he could have left the symphonic scene on a better note though. The last movements to his first and possibly third are his greatest finales. It depends on what you like really; kick-*** codas or gentle ebbing closing passages.


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## 3rdplanetsounds

Brahms has always been placed in that folder 'beethovien and conservative'In his 4 symphonies his music has always to my mind evolked a well structured ,highley origanol germanic/slav themes,increasinley evokutive in emotion and stature.music that clearly influenced mahler and strauss later on.top man!


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## gp4rts

Strauss? You mean Richard Strauss? The "Alpine Symphony"?  Not to me; Brahms would never sanction such bombast. But Bruckner, Mahler, Dvorak were definitely followers of Brahms.


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## Frasier

3rdplanetsounds said:


> Brahms has always been placed in that folder 'beethovien and conservative'In his 4 symphonies his music has always to my mind evolked a well structured ,highley origanol germanic/slav themes,increasinley evokutive in emotion and stature.music that clearly influenced mahler and strauss later on.top man!


I'd put Brahms in the "conservative" slot. Beethoven was far from conservative. A study of his string quartet scoring should convince anyone of that, let alone his orchestration, let alone how he burst the symphonic boundaries set by Mozart & Haydn.

Brahms was an excellent craftsman, his orchestration is competent but fairly conventional. In four symphonies he barely pushed the medium forward - even if they are very good they stuck to the formula. I certainly don't think he had Beethoven's orchestral imagination. So, yes, Brahms' 4th is a good symphony possibly let down by its last movement. Some of the qualities discussed in this thread arise from excellent performances - a good body of strings helps a lot - though his work is robust enough to tolerate poor performances and still hang together.

I still like Carlos Kleiber's 4th that does bring out the _drive_ in the first movement.


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## gp4rts

Brahms was a traditionalist. His music did not break any new ground structurally or harmonically. However, he brought the traditional forms to the pinnacle of perfection. And the 4th movement of the 4th is an acknowledged masterpiece of the passacaglia form. I listened to that movement for years before realizing that it was a sequence of 30-some variations on the initial 8-note introduction. Each one proceeds from the preceding smoothly and effortlessly, and builds up to a magnificent finale.


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## cato

Although I love just about all of Brahms work, the 4th symphony is not only his best, but I would rate it as one of the best works of all time. 

As for versions..... well, as you guys know, there are dozens and dozens of versions out there, and I have heard most of them. 

But for me, I think the best is the version with *The Cleveland Orchestra*, with *George Szell *conducting.

Of course, I admit being biased in favor of The Cleveland Orchestra  but this recording of Brahms 4th symphony, recorded back in the 1960's, on the Sony label, stands heads above the rest.

But of course, that's just my not-so-humble opinion.


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## JohnM

cato said:


> Although I love just about all of Brahms work, the 4th symphony is not only his best, but I would rate it as one of the best works of all time.


Agreed, definitely. Although I did take a while to appreciate it's complexities well enough to really enjoy it. It was worth the time and effort, though.


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## Vesteralen

All four of the Brahms symphonies share a certain mature sound that reminds me much more of one another than of the work of any other composer, but each symphony is also unique - few, if any, of the twelve movements could fit sytlistically into any of the symphonies but the one in which they are found.

One movement that could be found, I think, in tone color and mood, though perhaps not in key, in at least three of the symphonies, is the second movement of #4. I could picture that particular musical argument working in #1 and in #3. Of course, it fits perfectly in #4 as well, so there's no need to complain.

The sweep and momentum of the first movement is totally Brahms and completely unique to my knowledge. Nothing else in classical music moves quite like it. It features the most exciting ending in Brahms next to the first movement of the Piano Concerto #1. It's more exciting to me than the extrovert ending of the Second Symphony because it has so much more weight. This is tragedy with a capital "T", as no one else could write it.

The second movement is "ancient" sounding. Brahms as Sophocles - the greatest tragedian who ever lived.

The third movement has often been described as "rollicking", but it's a mature kind of rollicking - full bodied and powerful.

I disagree that the fourth movement is a let-down. The flute solo is one of my favorite passages in the symphonic repertoire. The ending measures are the perfect pessimist's answer to Beethoven's Ninth's conclusion.

For me, a perfect work of art, with some of the most beautiful chamber passages ever - especially for flute, oboe and horn.


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## waldvogel

There's some amazing integration of themes in Brahms' 4th. In my opinion, the foundation of the piece is the opening theme to the second movement, written in the Phrygian mode (playable on a piano's white keys from E to E'.) If you take this theme, speed it up and invert it, you get something very similar to the opening theme of the third movement. Take the Phrygian theme, invert it and cut it into fragments, and you have the opening of the first movement. Take the Phrygian theme, make an arpeggio after the first note, and you've got something like the theme in the first movement that introduces the section with the tango-like rhythm. That tango theme is very much like the Phrygian theme in a different rhythm. That slow section that makes up the trio in the third movement - the Phrygian theme with an interspersed filagree. 

The fourth movement is utterly amazing. It's written as a Passacaglia, a form that had gone extinct in the early 1700's. But the theme itself is harmonically rich, with every chord suggesting a new key. Brahms takes this harmonic pattern and manages to make a movement with tenderness (the solo flute section), terror (brass chorale blazing away), bliss (the section for oboes and horns), all with the same underlying harmonic sequence.


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## Vesteralen

Thanks, waldvogel, I was hoping someone could do that sort of analysis!


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## Merl

Frasier said:


> .......Brahms' 4th is a good symphony possibly let down by its last movement. Some of the qualities discussed in this thread arise from excellent performances - a good body of strings helps a lot - though his work is robust enough to tolerate poor performances and still hang together.


*Resurrecting this old thread as I wonder if anyone feels the same as me and the poster above that the last movement lets this otherwise wonderful symphony down. Dont get me wrong, I dont dislke the last movement but its as though Brahms used all his best ideas and tunes up on the excellent first 3 movements and then tacked any old stuff on the end. As you know, I have tons of Brahms cycles and love many, but ive always thought the culmination of the 4th needed to be a stellar moment in symphonic history. Am i being harsh? What do you think?

*


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## KenOC

Merl said:


> *Resurrecting this old thread as I wonder if anyone feels the same as me and the poster above that the last movement lets this otherwise wonderful symphony down. Dont get me wrong, I dont dislke the last movement but its as though Brahms used all his best ideas and tunes up on the excellent first 3 movements and then tacked any old stuff on the end. As you know, I have tons of Brahms cycles and love many, but ive always thought the culmination of the 4th needed to be a stellar moment in symphonic history. Am i being harsh? What do you think?
> 
> *


I feel pretty much the opposite! However I'm a huge fan of variation form, including chaconnes and passacaglias.  Brahms did this one right.


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## Bulldog

I'm with KenOC. I find the 4th to be the most rewarding Brahms symphony and that final movement the best of all.


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## CnC Bartok

Sorry, Merl, I'm with our Transatlantic cousins on this one! I think it's a miraculous movement, and the apotheosis of his Symphonic writing. It IS a stellar moment in symphonic history as far as I am concerned.


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## Merl

CnC Bartok said:


> Sorry, Merl, I'm with our Transatlantic cousins on this one! I think it's a miraculous movement, and the apotheosis of his Symphonic writing. It IS a stellar moment in symphonic history as far as I am concerned.


Lol, i knew many would disagree and I do love the 4th (how could you not?) And do like the last movement. I just dont *'love' *it like some of you do.


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## D Smith

I don't feel let down at all by the last movement of Brahms' 4th. I love that Brahms used the theme and variation form and quoted the bass line from Bach's Nacht dir, Herr, verlanget mich cantata - thought to be Bach's earliest church cantata - for this Brahm's final symphony. Music is truly never-ending.


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## Heck148

Brahms 4/IV is my favorite movement of the symphony....wonderfully crafted, one can listen and never realize what exquisite form is being presented....in both form and content, the finale is top notch


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## SixFootScowl

I never got excited about Brahms, but last week my musical friend at work strongly encouraged me to listen to the 4th! I am going to do it this weekend.


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## MrMeatScience

I'll jump in with Merl and say that I don't enjoy the finale of the Fourth as much as I do the preceding three movements. Not that it's bad -- it's anything but -- but the first three movements are just so spectacular that anything short of transcendent would fall short of the mark. I'm sure I'm biased, as I don't particularly care for variations in general. The transformation of the first movement's theme is a really cool moment, though.


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## Brahmsian Colors

Merl said:


> I do love the 4th (how could you not?) And do like the last movement. I just dont *'love' *it like some of you do.





MrMeatScience said:


> I don't enjoy the finale of the Fourth as much as I do the preceding three movements


Ditto regarding the final movement.


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## cyberstudio

How can logic be this emotional? I have never seen anything like this elsewhere. The fourth movement is the most logical as well as the most tragic. Such irony is the best possible way to end this, as Cnc Bartok put it, stellar moment in symphonic history.


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## Common Listener

Odd coincidence of timing. I was thinking about posting my agreement that the fourth movement is wonderful but the first three are so incredible that the fourth is indeed a let-down but, in another thread, I came across the fact that John Eliot Gardiner had recorded a Brahms cycle. I played the 4th on youtube and the first movements seemed a little harsh and thin to me (and the first may have been fractionally too fast) so I didn't think it was terrible or anything, but it wasn't thrilling me but then the fourth movement came on and it seemed to finally be a finale in a transformed, almost explosive way. I may be weird and hearing things (anybody else hear this?) but the four movements seemed balanced. I'm still not sure what I think of the whole performance but it definitely achieved something fascinating to my ears. And, either way, it certainly re-affirmed my opinion that this is a magnificent work.

[I should make it clear that I think you probably have to listen to the whole thing for it to work and not just skip to the last movement as though this performance did something with it in isolation. I think it's how the first movements prep the last.]


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## MarkW

"Love" might be too strong a word for the finale, but it is an astonishing piece of architecture and thoroughly belongs as the finale


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## EdwardBast

I'm with Ken, Bulldog, Bartok, Smith, Heck, and Mark on this one. Great finale.


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## mbhaub

The "problem" with the 4th's finale is that it ends in a minor key. No heroic, cathartic resolution. The first two symphonies end in a blaze of electrifying glory. The 3rd a gentle peaceful end after the war was won. Maybe some people would view it differently if Brahms had written a 5th Symphony to close out his cycle in resplendent excitement. What I can say, is that every time I am involved in a performance of the 4th, the stature of the whole symphony and especially that finale grows. Next week I am playing it again - the contrabassoon part. If you really get into it, analyze the thing, it blows the mind how anyone could have written it. One of the very best explanations of the symphony was done by Bernstein. Well worth finding.


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## Heck148

The finale of Brahms #4 is really astounding....I find it puzzling that some find it a let-down...
Try Toscanini/NBC or Reiner/RoyPO for splendid renditions - hair-raising - they get the drama perfectly, with the big climaxes, the relaxation, the flow. The fireworks after the quiet, chorale-like middle section are amazing, "real pedal to the metal" stuff.....all the while, the basic 8 measure variation structure chugs right along....a remarkable perfection of form and content....Solti is good, too, in this movement.


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## SixFootScowl

I just listened to Brahm's 4th and it is very good. I never cared much for Brahms before but my friend said I need to focus on the 4th symphony and he was right. He says of the 4th, 


> "Wonderful symphony. My favorite of his. The entire first movement is based on such a simple and effective 4 note motif. Genius!"


Here is the one I listened to:


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## MarkW

At the risk of always sounding like an apologist for a problematic conductor, Leinsdorf did leave a paper trail, which is always entertaining reading. He was an obsessive score reader and often drew conclusions which were worth a try, even if not always successful. On the finale to the Fourth, he decided that, lacking tempo markings or many change indications in the score, each of the variations should occupy the same amount of clock time (except the long ones in the middle, which should be twice as long). This eliminated the taffy-pull effect of conductors trying to find the exact tempo to bring out the character of each one, and got rid of the big ritard at the end that many conductors employ for no other reason than that everyone else does it To my ear, it actually works and imparts a momentum to the movement that makes it inevitable.


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## SixFootScowl

Now I am listening to this one.


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## Larkenfield

Brahms also has a Tango in the 1st movement... and it should be played like one, not watered down. He’s cutting loose and letting his hair down... well, at least a little bit.


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