# What defines Chamber Music as....well, Chamber??



## huntsman

I've heard the term and even used it many times, but what constitutes Chamber Music? :tiphat:


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## KenOC

The Wikipedia entry opens with a pretty good definition. A point of definition I've heard (and that Wiki repeats) is: One instrument per part.


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## huntsman

I'm not sure I understand this, so please bear with me.

Does this mean, say, one oboe, one piano, etc?

Is there a certain number of instruments that must partake? 

Can a piano and a violin be considered 'Chamber Music'?


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## moody

huntsman said:


> I'm not sure I understand this, so please bear with me.
> 
> Does this mean, say, one oboe, one piano, etc?
> 
> Is there a certain number of instruments that must partake?
> 
> Can a piano and a violin be considered 'Chamber Music'?


The "chamber" means room as opposed to a hall .
Chamber is an old word for room.
Most of what is known as chamber music was played among a group of musicians for fun


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## huntsman

moody said:


> The "chamber" means room as opposed to a hall .
> Chamber is an old word for room.
> Most of what is known as chamber music was played among a group of musicians for fun


Regardless of qty per instrument?


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## Ukko

The instruments and their players (not including piano) must fit into a 12' by 12' room - with enough clearance to play. The term 'chamber orchestra' is a *******.


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## huntsman

Hilltroll72 said:


> The instruments and their players (not including piano) must fit into a 12' by 12' room - with enough clearance to play. The term 'chamber orchestra' is a *******.


Aha. With only one of each instrument allowed?


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## Hausmusik

huntsman said:


> Aha. With only one of each instrument allowed?


Not quite--there are two violins in a string quartet, for example, but each has a separate musical part to play. In chamber music, there is no doubling of instruments i.e. you don't have two violinists playing the first violin part, or two cellos playing the cello part, etc. That is what Ken means by "one instrument per part."

That (and not the 12x12 rule, which troll is making up) is why "chamber orchestra" is "*******." 

Must would likely say also that it must be without a conductor. Goethe described chamber music as an intelligent conversation among equals.


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## huntsman

Unfortunately, I am a rank beginner, so missed the fact that Hilltroll72 was...joking. So, the room size is of no consequence?


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## peeyaj

Think "chamber music" as the most intimate form of instrumental music in classical repertoire. It only requires a small or medium sized hall (unlike an orchestra) like Wigmore Hall and is usually played by 3 or more people..

Chamber music is the genre of the following popular classical forms:

*Featuring the piano*

1. *Piano Duo* = Two players on different piano or two player on one piano ( piano four-hands). Example: Schubert's Fantaise on F minor

2. *Piano Trio *= Piano, Violin and Cello. This is one of the most popular form of chamber music. The piano must balance between the violin and cello. Example is Schubert's Piano Trio no. 1 and no. 2.






3. *Piano Quartet* = This ensemble contains piano, cello, violin and viola. Example of these are Brahms piano quartets which is some of his famous compositions.

4. *Piano Quintet *= Generally, piano and strings. This form is expanded in Romantic era by Schumann's Piano Quintet, that is a piano and string quartet. The most popular piano quintet is Schubert's Piano Quintet in A, famously known as the Trout Quintet. It is unusually scored for piano, violin, viola, cello and double bass!






5. *Piano Sextet *= Less popular than the other forms above.. It is for piano and five string instruments.

*Featuring Strings*

1. *String Trio* = It is for violin, viola and cello.

2. *String Quartet* = 2 violins, viola and cello. This is the most prestigious form of chamber music with some of the greatest composers like Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert , Bartok etc, composing masterpieces on the genre. Beethoven's 16 string quartets is the yardstick on which every quartets are compared. Schubert composed four masterful quartets on the Romantic era, this tradition was followed by Bartok and Shostakovich.






3.* String Quintet* = 2 violins, cello and 2 violas ( viola quintet) or 2 violins, 1 viola and 2 cellos (cello quintet). Viola quintet is the form in which Mozart wrote his famous string quintets ( Beethoven did, too). Schubert only cello quintet is one of the greatest (if not the greatest) chamber music composition ever.






4. *String Sextet* = 6 stringed instruments. Brahms wrote two famous string sextets.

MISC:

1. *Sonata or Fantasia for two instruments* = That is a violin sonata (piano and violin) or cello sonata (piano and cello).. Kreutzer sonata by Beethoven is the most famous, while Schubert's Arpeggione sonata is transcribed for cello and piano. Example of Fantasy for two instruments is Schubert's Fantasy in C major, D.934.

2.* Septet *= It is for seven instruments. Beethoven composed a good but not great septet.

3.* Octet* = It can have many combinations of eight instruments. Mendelssohn famous Octet is an octet composed of two string quartets, while Schubert is for strings and winds.

Wikipedia has a great overview of chamber music ensembles.



> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamber_music#Ensembles


I have a blog in TC that discusses the history of chamber music and some of its greatest composers. Read it here:



> http://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/peeyaj/15-greatest-composers-chamber-music.html


PS: You noticed that I've mentioned Schubert several times. Well, if you really want to experience some of the greatest chamber music that a composer can offer, start with him. His chamber music is full of exquisite melodies and he is my favorite composer. He wrote 4 string quartet masterpieces, two piano trios, a piano quintet, a string quintet, an octet and various piano duos. After Schubert, proceed to Beethoven, Mozart, Brahms and Haydn, in that order.


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## huntsman

WOW!

That is possibly the most complete reply I have received on any forum and I appreciate your time and effort! That is exactly what I needed and I am very encouraged - thank you so much. I have saved that post and will refer regularly, you may be sure - and I will definitely follow up on Schubert.


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## Hausmusik

huntsman, the one thing that hasn't been mentioned is that chamber music, at least in the late 18th-early 19th century, was often written to be performed by amateurs in their home (hence "chamber"), but eventually concert performance more or less totally displaced domestic music making as lovers of CM became increasingly understood as passive audiences, and chamber music writing began to make increasing technical commands.

One of the oddities of chamber music is the nomenclature. As peeyaj points out, a piano quintet is NOT a work for five pianos, but usually refers to a work for piano with string quartet. Same for clarinet quintet, horn quintet, viola quintet, etc. Since many quintets consist of a string quartet + one other instrument, the quintet is often identified by the extra instrument.

Yet a piano duet is a work for two players seated together at one piano or at two separate pianos.


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## huntsman

Yeah,

This is going to take me some time to be comfortable with, sans notes, but I really do feel a lot happier. Thanks Hausmusik!


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## Ukko

huntsman said:


> Unfortunately, I am a rank beginner, so missed the fact that Hilltroll72 was...joking. So, the room size is of no consequence?


Well, it used to be of consequence. Hence the name. Many concert hall buildings have a hall for orchestral music, and a smaller room for chamber music. Same deal in palaces, mansions and manors. 12 by 12 is 'exaggerating to dramatize the difference'. On the other hand, chamber ensembles also were used to play 'divertimento' type music in palace gardens and maybe even back yards. *And*, Some so-called chamber orchestra arrangements do not follow the 'one per' rule in strings and/or woodwinds.

If you are getting the idea that 'chamber' is an indefinite adjective, you are catching on.


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## Mahlerian

Then there's the Chamber Symphony for 13 solo instruments...






Devilishly difficult to play, let alone balance adequately.


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## huntsman

Hilltroll72 said:


> Well, it used to be of consequence. Hence the name. Many concert hall buildings have a hall for orchestral music, and a smaller room for chamber music. Same deal in palaces, mansions and manors. 12 by 12 is 'exaggerating to dramatize the difference'. On the other hand, chamber ensembles also were used to play 'divertimento' type music in palace gardens and maybe even back yards. *And*, Some so-called chamber orchestra arrangements do not follow the 'one per' rule in strings and/or woodwinds.
> 
> If you are getting the idea that 'chamber' is an indefinite adjective, you are catching on.


I am...I am!


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## Hausmusik

"Some so-called chamber orchestra arrangements do not follow the 'one per' rule in strings and/or woodwinds."

hill,
true, but a chamber symphony arrangement would not really be considered chamber music by most people, and by most people I mean me.


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## moody

huntsman said:


> Unfortunately, I am a rank beginner, so missed the fact that Hilltroll72 was...joking. So, the room size is of no consequence?


When it comes to the troll you have to be FAST !

My mother used to call it Pot Music.


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## PetrB

Firstly, the origin of the word is from Kammermusik, Musique de chambre, etc. and was meant literally as being music which was more appropriately performed in a large room in a building, usually a private residence (including the larger rooms of an aristocratic home / mansion) vs. the larger spaces of 'halls' or auditoriums. _[Currently, it is not uncommon to attend a string quartet recital in a large auditorium or concert hall: being a bit 'purist' in this matter, that was not the original intent. Often, to 'get closer to that original sound' the string quartet will be sitting in front of a wall of acoustic paneling meant to 'adjust' the acoustic of the large hall. The origin of the term for the genre is from music played in much smaller rooms, with not so many instruments.]_

This includes, then, how many players can fit the space, and how much sound those players generate as being acoustically proportionate to the particular room.

The genre itself, often with a limited resource of number of players, leads to the 'one player, one part' definition: 
that means there is no doubling of notes, or 'thickening' of the music as done in orchestration with a larger orchestra -- i.e. each player's part is critical to the whole of the musical sense of the piece.

As example of 'One player, One part' taken to an academic extreme -- with no doublings anywhere in its score -- Messiaen's Des canyons aux étoiles, a lengthy concertante work (with a very large role played by in this instance, the piano, along with the horn solo, xylorimba solo and glockenspiel solo) for:
piano solo, horn solo, xylorimba solo and glockenspiel solo. 
Strings: 6 violins, 3 violas, 3 cellos, 1 double bass with fifth-string lower extension. 
Woodwinds: 1 piccolo, 2 flutes, 1 alto flute, 2 oboes, 1 cor anglais, 2 bassoons, 1 contrabassoon, 1 E-flat clarinet, 2 B-flat clarinets and 1 bass clarinet. 
Brass: as well as the sixth movement's horn solo; 
2 horns, 2 trumpets in c, 1 trumpet in d, 2 trombones, and 1 bass trombone. 
Percussion: requires 5 players, Messiaen's invented geophone, 1 wind machine, 1 thunder sheet, 1 gong, 1 set of tuned gongs, 1 set of tubular bells, 1 pair of maracas, 1 whip, 1 bass drum, 1 triangle, 1 wood block, 1 set of wooden wind chimes, 1 set crotales, 1 reco reco, and 1 tumba, and a few other percussion instruments.
...is still, though a 'massive' sounding piece, technically 'music for chamber orchestra, ergo: music' requiring less than fifty players 

The general association, though, is music for those smaller ensembles up to about ten players (which can fit and are acoustically appropriate to those smaller rooms vs. halls and large concert halls) and that manner of writing where each player's part is crucial in contributing to the overall piece.

It is also understood to be 'ensemble' music, the smaller ensembles often playing without need of a conductor. Two or more musicians are the rule. 'larger' ensembles, in the most expected sense, may get up to ten to eighteen players.

Duet, Trio, Quartet, Quintet, Sestet, Septet, Octet Nonette, Dectet, etc. would be the Latin-based numbered terminology for such ensembles.

The genre of chamber works including a piano, trios, quartet, etc. are called 'Piano trio / Piano quartet, etc. _Those specifically designate a work for piano + strings._ 
Works with piano and winds are always qualified as such -- EX. Mozart piano quartet K. 478 (understood as piano and strings): Quintet K.452 is for piano and winds, so is always qualified as Quintet K. 452 _for Piano and Winds_. Similarly, works for piano and mixed instruments are usually, or sometimes qualified, as for 'piano, winds and strings, etc.

A chamber orchestra is larger than the smaller chamber ensembles, but far less than the full symphonic orchestra of around one-hundred players. Chamber orchestras vary from between say middle 30 to about fifty players. (The orchestra for many a Mozart classical era piano concerto is a medium string ensemble, pairs of oboes, clarinets, flutes, (maybe bassoons), two horns -- often not all the winds are present in the orchestration of any one concerto. Ditto for many a classical era symphony, the fuller orchestrations having the full retinue of winds and two horns.)

Poulenc's Aubade, for piano and eighteen instruments, qualifies as a chamber piece.

Schoenberg's Kammersymphonie Op. 9, is scored for fifteen players. 
Flute, alternating on Piccolo
Oboe
English Horn
3 clarinets (E-flat Clarinet / Clarinet / Bass Clarinet)
Bassoon
Contrabassoon
2 horns 
with a string quintet:
Violin 1 & 2
Viola
Cello
Double Bass


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