# Share your "To Hell with the Snobs and Critics I Like These Composers" List



## christomacin (Oct 21, 2017)

Some lads on my list:

Bruch
Delius
Franck
Grieg
Khachaturian
Puccini
Rachmaninoff
Respighi
Rossini
Saint-Saëns 
Johann Strauss, Jr.
Villa-Lobos


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## John Zito (Sep 11, 2021)

I guess I'm not quite sure which composers the snobs and critics are allied against, but I love Piazzolla. I'd rather listen to _María de Buenos Aires_ than most traditional operas.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

At this point, if this or that critic is still rattling on about liking or disliking composers (apart from living composers) then they're clearly living in the wrong century. It's like those Amazon reviewers who prattle on about some 18th century composer as if they were 18th century critics and... I mean, shut the flip up. History has spoken. Review the performance or interpretation, but we really don't care what you think of Stamitz as a composer. Really, it's more about "To Hell with Snobs and Critics I Like These Performers or Interpretations". With that in mind, and as others in this forum well know, I say to hell with snobs and critics and I really like the Schoonderwoerd Beethoven Piano Concerto performances.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

For a start:

Tchaikovsky
Leroy Anderson
Puccini
Rachmaninoff
Kalinnikov
Raff


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

vtpoet said:


> At this point, if this or that critic is still rattling on about liking or disliking composers (apart from living composers) then they're clearly living in the wrong century. It's like those Amazon reviewers who prattle on about some 18th century composer as if they were 18th century critics and... I mean, shut the flip up. History has spoken. Review the performance or interpretation, but we really don't care what you think of Stamitz as a composer. Really, it's more about "To Hell with Snobs and Critics I Like These Performers or Interpretations". With that in mind, and as others in this forum well know, I say to hell with snobs and critics and I really like the Schoonderwoerd Beethoven Piano Concerto performances.


I'm glad I'm not the only one who finds it incredibly obnoxious and arrogant when critics try to pass judgement on composers and compositions which have already firmly established their place in the canon.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

def strauss jr, for sure.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

What would Hanslick have said about this?: Do you find Brahms overly sentimental?


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

These are my top ten favorite composers - in chronological order - I don't ever rank them.

*Othmar Schoeck* (1886-1957)
*George Gershwin* (1898-1937)
*Kurt Weill* (1900-1950)
*Maurice Duruflé* (1902-1986)
*Leonard Bernstein* (1918-1990)
*Mieczyslaw Weinber*g (1919-1996)
*Stephen Sondheim* (1930-2021)
*Meredith Monk* (1942- )
*Krzysztof Meyer* (1943- )
*Osvaldo Golijov* (1960- )


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

I have to think hard about this.


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## Highwayman (Jul 16, 2018)

christomacin said:


> Some lads on my list:
> 
> Franck


Isn`t Franck one of the cool guys? Or do you mean Edouard Franck or something?

Nikolaï Medtner
Ernő von Dohnányi
RVW
CHH Parry
Herbert Howells
Hugo Alfvén
Friedrich Gernsheim
Josef Rheinberger
Julius Röntgen
Krzysztof Penderecki
Malcolm Arnold
Arnold Bax
PM Davies
Max Bruch (maybe)
Camille Saint-Saëns (maybe)


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Nikolai Medtner(so much to love there, I get that his melodies are not immediately accessible but the man really had a great musical mind)
Carl Nielsen(really intriguing symphonic cycle, such a unique musical personality)
Jean Sibelius(some critics have said bad things about him even though he has cache in certain pockets of academia now)
Sergei Rachmaninoff(underrated by critics for sure)
Alexander Scriabin(basically he's one of the very best imo, so good that even though he is regarded fairly well, he deserves more)
Emmanuel Chabrier(love his music, it's wonderfully witty and clear and colorful, more than a "light composer" especially at the piano, or maybe just so delightful no heaviness is really needed)
Georges Bizet(anyone who can write carmen...i've seen Bizet dismissed as a "light composer" and it bothers me)
George Frideric Handel(Bachians love to look down on him, but why can't one love Bach and also see what a genius Handel was? He really did have a copious capacity of fashioning musical diamonds)
Sylvius Leopold Weiss(I don't know what critics say about him, but what's not to love about a composer that can write so beautifully and idiomatically for the world's most beautiful instrument, the 13 course lute?)
CPE Bach(again I'm not sure critics really have much beef with him, but his contribution to the clavichord is without peer and I wish this would generate a little wider interest, but i can't always get what I want)
Henri Dutilleux(really amazingly rich and beautiful modernism that I'm annoyed gets dismissed as conservative still; one doesn't have to knock the forefront modernism as a statement if they confess an appreciation for this absolute master)
Dmitry Shostakovich(I'm not sure there are too many modernist composers as musically well endowed as Shosty was, say what they will, the critics, then and now)
Johann Strauss 2(my heart loves the viennese folkish melodies that this man was the ultimate fount and shaper of. So did the hearts of Mahler, Schoenberg, Brahms, and Richard Strauss)


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

christomacin said:


> Some lads on my list:


What about the lasses?


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

*Howard Hanson* - fine composer, who wrote some powerful works....his best known work Sym #2 is ok, but certainly not his best, try 1 or 3 for starters, or "MerryMount"

*Julius Fucik* - wrote some really cool pieces!! more than just "Entry of the Gladiators"...for me, a wonderful combination of Dvorak, JP Sousa and a little Joh. Strauss, Jr....


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Michael Daugherty. Some Puritans think that he peddles little more than shallow campy pastiche Americana. I couldn't care less - the music is often evocative and nearly always great fun. So there...


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

SanAntone said:


> These are my top ten favorite composers - in chronological order - I don't ever rank them.
> 
> *Othmar Schoeck* (1886-1957)
> *George Gershwin* (1898-1937)
> ...


For some inexplicable reason I unintentionally left off one name who has been very important to my musical experience:

*John Cage (1912-1992)*


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## christomacin (Oct 21, 2017)

Forster said:


> What about the lasses?


Amy Beach and Dame Ethyl Smyth are both solid composers


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## christomacin (Oct 21, 2017)

Highwayman said:


> Isn`t Franck one of the cool guys? Or do you mean Edouard Franck or something?
> 
> Nikolaï Medtner
> Ernő von Dohnányi
> ...


Cesar Franck is a very frequently slagged off composer. His Symphony in D Minor has been a source of whining for many a critic. ********, I say! I second your mention of Bax and would also put forward George Enescu.


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## Chilham (Jun 18, 2020)

christomacin said:


> Amy Beach and Dame Ethyl Smyth are both solid composers


Damned by faint praise.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

John Zito said:


> I guess I'm not quite sure which composers the snobs and critics are allied against, but I love Piazzolla. I'd rather listen to _María de Buenos Aires_ than most traditional operas.


What's wrong with Piazzolla?


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## John Zito (Sep 11, 2021)

Red Terror said:


> What's wrong with Piazzolla?


Nothing from my point of view, but I could imagine there are certain quarters where he's not taken very seriously. Mahan Esfahani once called Piazzolla "the worst composer ever" or something like that (he's deleted his Twitter account since, so I can't provide a link).


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## christomacin (Oct 21, 2017)

No more or less faint than my praise for Raff or Spohr, or does it only count when they're female?


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

John Zito said:


> Nothing from my point of view, but I could imagine there are certain quarters where he's not taken very seriously. Mahan Esfahani once called Piazzolla "the worst composer ever" or something like that (he's deleted his Twitter account since, so I can't provide a link).


Mahan Esfahani's opinion is very different from that of Nadia Boulanger and Alberto Ginastera. Not that it matters. Piazzolla's standing is secure.


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## John Zito (Sep 11, 2021)

SanAntone said:


> Mahan Esfahani's opinion is very different from that of Nadia Boulanger and Alberto Ginastera. Not that it matters. Piazzolla's standing is secure.


Agreed. But then, Esfahani's no slouch. If he has a proper critique, I'd be interested to hear what it is. But most likely he was just being flippant and provocative for the fun of it, which is fair enough.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

John Zito said:


> Agreed. But then, Esfahani's no slouch. If he has a proper critique, I'd be interested to hear what it is. But most likely he was just being flippant and provocative for the fun of it, which is fair enough.


All it does is lower Esfahani's credibility in my eyes.

I've seen some Bach recordings by him, but now know there is no reason for me to listen to them. Anyone with that kind of arrogance and lack of judgment would not have the requisite humility and interpretive gifts to offer a performance worth listening to, IMO.

Plus I don't like the clothes he wears.


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## Torkelburger (Jan 14, 2014)

SanAntone said:


> These are my top ten favorite composers - in chronological order - I don't ever rank them.
> 
> *Othmar Schoeck* (1886-1957)
> *George Gershwin* (1898-1937)
> ...


Good list. I particularly like the Weill selection. I recommended his 2nd symphony in the Saturday Symphony listening thread a few years ago, hoping to turn some ears on to it, but it didn't seem to get much interest. Maybe because of Weill's reputation. It's a shame, really, as it truly is a wonderful piece and well written, IMO. Deserves to be in the repertoire for sure.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Torkelburger said:


> Good list. I particularly like the Weill selection. I recommended his 2nd symphony in the Saturday Symphony listening thread a few years ago, hoping to turn some ears on to it, but it didn't seem to get much interest.


I've played that Symphony...it is quite good, long time ago, but I remember esp liking the 2nd and 3rd mvts...


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Chilham said:


> Damned by feint praise.


I rather suspect that you meant 'faint' praise ... or were they being deceptive?


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## Chilham (Jun 18, 2020)

Becca said:


> I rather suspect that you meant 'faint' praise ... or were they being deceptive?


I did indeed.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Torkelburger said:


> Good list. I particularly like the Weill selection. I recommended his 2nd symphony in the Saturday Symphony listening thread a few years ago, hoping to turn some ears on to it, but it didn't seem to get much interest. Maybe because of Weill's reputation. It's a shame, really, as it truly is a wonderful piece and well written, IMO. Deserves to be in the repertoire for sure.


I inadvertently left off *John Cage* from my list. He is a composer whose entire outlook and music have had a great impact on my musical life.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

christomacin said:


> Amy Beach and Dame Ethyl Smyth are both solid composers


As is a former teacher of mine, Joan Tower.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

clavichorder said:


> Sergei Rachmaninoff(underrated by critics for sure)
> Alexander Scriabin(basically he's one of the very best imo, so good that even though he is regarded fairly well, he deserves more)
> George Frideric Handel(Bachians love to look down on him, but why can't one love Bach and also see what a genius Handel was? He really did have a copious capacity of fashioning musical diamonds)


I very strongly agree with these.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

clavichorder said:


> Bachians love to look down on him, but why can't one love Bach and also see what a genius Handel was?


Sure, not a terrible composer by any means. The most competent 18th century composers make musical arguments with natural succession and abundance of ideas. Handel in his musical thought process would go about things like; he presents an idea......(he grows tired of it after a while)....he then presents another idea.......(he grows tired of it after a while)......and so on. He thinks of one thing at a time. One person in another thread said that "the Messiah is a brilliant popular evangelizing book, a christian worship Rock band". I think he's right; compared to Bach and some real classical music that immediately came after, in terms of harmonic depth, Handel is a "brilliant popular evangelizing christian worship Rock band".


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

hammeredklavier said:


> Sure, not a terrible composer by any means. The most competent 18th century composers make musical arguments with natural succession and abundance of ideas. Handel in his musical thought process would go about things like; he presents an idea......(he grows tired of it after a while)....he then presents another idea.......(he grows tired of it after a while)......and so on. He thinks of one thing at a time. One person in another thread said that "the Messiah is a brilliant popular evangelizing book, a christian worship Rock band". I think he's right; compared to Bach and some real classical music that immediately came after, in terms of harmonic depth, Handel is a "brilliant popular evangelizing christian worship Rock band".


Comparing Handel to christian rock bands? Very strange to associate him with that kitsch.


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

Tc has a good share of Mozart hate. I like his music.


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## david johnson (Jun 25, 2007)

Snobs and critics are best when ignored. Just because they might make a living in the music industry is more a reflection on who pays attention to them rather than how much they know. I don't mind reading a critic review to consider what it may offer, but in the end, I trust my own training, experience, and judgement.


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

Definitely Rheinberger.

There are still people out there who think he was a dry as dust academic composer of stuffy organ sonatas and nothing more.
Sure, his music is rooted in the mid-19th century German style, it chooses to ignore Wagner and the modernist movements of his times, and close to the turn of the century his style became really old-fashioned, but when you look at the pure quality of his music, you'll be amazed. He excelled in every genre, not only organ but also piano and chamber music, choir works, a handful of orchestral pieces and even a couple of operas.

And he wasn't just a Brahms or Schumann clone. He had a very distinctive voice, with melodic patterns that are as easily recognizable as those of Franck, and if he shares some qualities with Brahms, it's the rhythmical finesse and rich and dark-toned harmonies. Pianists should try the four piano sonatas. The 2nd, in D-flat major, for instance is a gorgeous piece that isn't too hard to play.

As for the part of his oeuvre that made him justly famous, the organ sonatas - call me weird but I consider those the best organ music since Bach, Mendelssohn and Franck not excluded.

The lack of recordings (some of his most important pieces have only be recorded once or twice - or never, in the case of the operas and some of the oratorios/cantatas...) makes that it's harder to get introduced to Rheinberger than it should be.
For instance, the orchestral music (which, granted, wasn't Rheinberger's speciality, there's only a handful of pieces) which should be the most colorful and easily accessible part of his works, is sadly under-recorded.
The first Symphony "Wallenstein", an attractive early piece has 2 or 3 good recordings, but there's only a single one of what's probably Rheinberger's best orchestral work, the 2nd "Florentine" symphony. And with due respect to Alun Francis, who did a lot to promote great unknown romantic music, this performance is slow, ponderous and boring. This wonderfully sunny symphony deserves much better!


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

david johnson said:


> I don't mind reading a critic review to consider what it may offer, but in the end, I trust my own training, experience, and judgement.


Absolutely....I know much better what works for me than any critic....critics can be very good, smart even, when they agree with me...otherwise, they are full of cr*p!! :lol::lol:


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Critics, eh? Can't live with them, can't legally bury them under your patio. 

In the hope that they are sufficiently down-market, I'll own up to being a big fan of Malcolm Arnold and Louis Moreau Gottschalk. And of Dave Brubeck.


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## christomacin (Oct 21, 2017)

RobertJTh said:


> Definitely Rheinberger.
> 
> There are still people out there who think he was a dry as dust academic composer of stuffy organ sonatas and nothing more.
> Sure, his music is rooted in the mid-19th century German style, it chooses to ignore Wagner and the modernist movements of his times, and close to the turn of the century his style became really old-fashioned, but when you look at the pure quality of his music, you'll be amazed. He excelled in every genre, not only organ but also piano and chamber music, choir works, a handful of orchestral pieces and even a couple of operas.
> ...


Rheinberger's two organ concertos are nice. Don't know too much else about him.


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## ribonucleic (Aug 20, 2014)

Am I "fighting the power" to say I like Ruggles and Sorabji?


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Captainnumber36 said:


> def strauss jr, for sure.


It's almost that time of year again. Only a few nights sleep away


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Some of the more sentimental sort of Russian symphonic composers like Gliere, Arensky, and Kallinnikov.

Check out the 2nd movement of this:


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## Chilham (Jun 18, 2020)

I enjoy listening to Vivaldi's single concerto, in all of it's 400 guises.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

What is with people using it's instead of its? Normally I'm not much of a stickler for grammar, but this one seems to be wrong 90% of the time even from intelligent people and in academic papers etc.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> What is with people using it's instead of its? Normally I'm not much of a stickler for grammar, but this one seems to be wrong 90% of the time even from intelligent people and in academic papers etc.


Just to clarify:

It's = It is

Its = possessive (no apostrophe)

On this page I only saw one mistake.


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## Chilham (Jun 18, 2020)

Guilty. . .....


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Another pet peeve of mine is using I as an object, as in "Dad went to the beach with mom and I". It's like people were just taught "mom and I" is proper grammar and "mom and me" sounds wrong.

I don't even mind it the other way around: "Mom and me went to the beach". To me that's just colloquial speech.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

Cool attitude, but recently critics do not criticize any of my favorite composers but still sporadic careless indifference toward some of the works annoys. Usually, blatant criticism hurts far less than lukewarmness, like pretending to be this is OK but picking faults here and there then highlighting what he considers as the best parts. 

It is good to be enthusiastic for listeners, but not good for performers, Gustav Leonhardt said once that to be enthusiastic in performance is vulgar, well, that is why I do not want to perform to people. Nothing is stronger than a tender, persistent enthusiasm.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

It's stunning, but only at first glance, that in a language that has lost almost all endings, native speakers mess the three endings up that remain. Even a beginner learning French or German would rarely say "avec maman et je"(instead of "moi") or "mit Mama und ich" (mir) despite French and German having no case ending for mother but retaining the flexion for the personal pronouns.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> What is with people using it's instead of its? Normally I'm not much of a stickler for grammar, but this one seems to be wrong 90% of the time even from intelligent people and in academic papers etc.


Its a disgrace. Its' a national scandal, thats what it is! If your always getting you're grammar and you're spelling wrong I think you should get band four life from this sight. :devil:


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Merl said:


> Its a disgrace. Its' a national scandal, thats what it is! If your always getting you're grammar and you're spelling wrong I think you should get band four life from this sight. :devil:


...or perhaps sent to a dessert island


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Becca said:


> ...or perhaps sent to a dessert island


Shouldnt that bee 'Ireland', Becker? Very pour righting!


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

When it comes to snobs, I have some respect for the old schools ones, because they had more than just good taste. Music probably came last amongst all the trappings of power and privilege of the aristocracy. Lady Bracknell doesn't even mention music or the arts in the famous interview scene in _The Importance of Being Earnest_:






The snobs I've encountered online tend to judge other people for what they don't listen to rather than what they do. I can't remember many instances of raised eyebrows about music of apparent low taste that I listen to. Perhaps Andrew Lloyd Webber.

Years ago, it became somewhat fashionable to poo-poo a set of composers who where seen to be like watered down classical music. Some names that come to mind are Sibelius, Rachmaninov and Shostakovich. The best this forum could do was to ride it out.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

I never cared what a critic thought, so this whole thread is null and void to me.


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## FrankE (Jan 13, 2021)

Wilhelm 'Richard' Wagner.


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

Pendulum Swing: "To Hell with Composers, I Like These Snobs and Critics"

George Bernard Shaw
Cesar Cui
Karl Flodin
Constant Lambert
Nicolai Soloviev
Anon.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

clavichorder said:


> George Frideric Handel(Bachians love to look down on him, but why can't one love Bach and also see what a genius Handel was? He really did have a copious capacity of fashioning musical diamonds)





hammeredklavier said:


> Sure, not a terrible composer by any means ...in terms of harmonic depth, Handel is a "brilliant popular evangelizing christian worship Rock band".





clavichorder said:


> Comparing Handel to christian rock bands? Very strange to associate him with that kitsch.


Handel's still among the top three of the German Baroque, along with Bach and Telemann. Bach is to Handel as Arvo Part is to Andrew Lloyd Webber. This comparison is more in terms of their modus operandi than anything else. I like their music, to varying degrees.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

John Williams. The Star Wars one, that is.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Neo Romanza said:


> I never cared what a critic thought, so this whole thread is null and void to me.


Indeed, whether it is professional critics or amateur critics on bulletin boards. I like what I like and I don't like what I don't like and what someone else thinks of that will not change it, and does not bother me.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Neo Romanza said:


> I never cared what a critic thought, so this whole thread is null and void to me.


I do care what the critics think, to the extent that their reviews of works I've not hear give me a starting point for some of my musical journeys.

That's not the same as agreeing with everything critics write (or anyone who offers a critical opinion - Boulez, Stravinsky, Berlioz for example).


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## VoiceFromTheEther (Aug 6, 2021)

The irreverent reverse of this thread could be worth a thought as well. "To hell with the snobs and critics, I _don't _like these composers".


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

VoiceFromTheEther said:


> The irreverent reverse of this thread could be worth a thought as well. "To hell with the snobs and critics, I _don't _like these composers".


That would be Mahler.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Neo Romanza said:


> I never cared what a critic thought, so this whole thread is null and void to me.


But if you stare long enough into the null and void, the null and void completely ignores you.


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