# Examples of Good Baroque Singing



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

I'll be honest: that post about the male soprano triggered me a bit. It's not the concept I have a problem with, in fact I I find the idea fascinating, but the state of baroque singing in general. To put it delicately, it is...regrettable, so rather than go after a single person, I thought it might be more constructive to first go over some issues I've had with recent baroque singing, followed by counterexamples of exceptional baroque singing. 

First, let's go over a few things that have always bothered me about many "baroque specialists" of the last 30-40 years 
1) Woofiness. Where modern opera singers often sound woofy because they're trying to artificially deepen the voice, baroque singers sound woofy because they're trying to lighten it. This goes well beyond my usual complaint of singers not engaging the chest voice. They don't even have a _middle voice _in any meaningful capacity, constricting their instrument to less than 1/3 its full potential and natural resonance.
2) Resultantly, little ability to sing forte or even convincingly mezzo forte, let alone fortisimo. By and large, I think a lot of classical music afficionados are too **** about dynamics, which were always intended to be relative and more fluid and organic than tends to be expected of modern singers. Still, at the end of the day, if you can't even produce loud vocalizations, you have no potential to convey excitement or intensity. As far as I am concerned, that means _you cannot sing_ 
3) All I can say about their coloratura is....who taught you that, and when did we decide that was a good idea?
4) Frequent breaks in the vocal line in inappropriate places, thinking this is being "expressive" when it's really just distracting. 
5) Ugly facial contortions that are supposed to look "emotive"....but look like one of those social media posts where people deliberately post ugly selfies in order to be funny. 

In laymen's terms, it just sounds....*weird. *Not good weird (ex: the first time you see a tarantula as a child. most of us are here because we are attracted to the novel and curious about unusual), but weird as in contrived, artificial, not resembling the way that normal humans vary their pitch or express emotion. Below I will post some counterexamples, devoid of any of the aforementioned grievances.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Rae Woodland






Jerry Hadley






Hubert Eisdell


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Rita Shane 






Samuel Ramey






Monica Sinclair


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## kappablanca (9 mo ago)

Funnily enough, whenever the the non-opera side of this forum talks about for their dislike of opera, someone usually talks about how the only classical singing they can enjoy is baroque singing, due to its (usually?) lesser use of vibrato. Perhaps humans are programmed to like one or the other 😅

I do agree with your post; I haven't listened to any baroque singing (besides in choirs) in quite a while. Although, maybe posting Hadley is cheating, since he was usually not a baroque singer.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

It would be useful to have examples of the faults you describe. I think good Baroque singing is, basically, just technically good singing applied with attention to the phrase structure and expressive devices (affects and embellishments) characteristic of the period. I don't think it requires a special vocal sound, e.g. the suppression of the voice's natural vibrato, although there are documents suggesting that voices with prominent vibratos were not favored then, just as they are not by many of us now, in Baroque repertoire and elsewhere.

Of the examples you post, I'm none too impressed with Rita Shane, whose vibrato is strong and whose coloratura is rough - rather brutal, on the whole. I can't imagine that she would have given much pleasure back in the day. Samuel Ramey sounds a bit heavy too, though Levine's ponderous accompaniment doesn't help. And Monica Sinclair... an odd, unbeautiful voice. Didn't she play a sorceress in Dido and Aeneas? Good casting. Her coloratura is impressive, though.
Hubert Eisdell is a new one to me. Wonderfully clean voice. Rae Woodland is new too, lovely if a bit sleepy; they took things slower then. I think HIP has brought some benefits, in instrumental sound and in shedding the ponderous articulation some of these old clips exhibit. But I don't think the singing of Baroque music needed any improvement over the days when we could hear the likes of Elly Ameling, Janet Baker, Ernst Haefliger, Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau and Kieth Engen bringing us Bach's cantatas.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Peter Dawson:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

wkasimer said:


> Peter Dawson:


That man can sing! I love a man with fabulous coloratura. I don't know why his vocal timbre makes me think of Gilbert and Sullivan, but I guess that isn't a bad thing.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> That man can sing! I love a man with fabulous coloratura. I don't know why his vocal timbre makes me think of Gilbert and Sullivan, but I guess that isn't a bad thing.


Dawson actually recorded G&S, and a LOT of lighter fare. IIRC, his career got off the ground when he appeared as a supporting artist on one of Nellie Melba's tours, and he stuck to the concert platform, never singing in staged opera.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

wkasimer said:


> Dawson actually recorded G&S, and a LOT of lighter fare. IIRC, his career got off the ground when he appeared as a supporting artist on one of Nellie Melba's tours, and he stuck to the concert platform, never singing in staged opera.


 Aha. I must have had a memory of hearing him in one of the G&S operettas.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

This is driving me nuts - which, admittedly, is not much of a "drive" - It's not as if you have to gas up or anything - but there is a female singer - apparently quite well-known - who specializes in Baroque repertoire - I've heard her sing Handel - and she has this really off-the-wall completely nuts almost insanely distracting vocal technique in which she raises her upper lip like a rabid squirrel, extends her lower jaw, exposes her bottom teeth and rapidly chatters like a crazed chipmunk hopped up on off-brand generic Mexican amphetamines whilst ornamenting whatever she's singing to within an inch of its life.

I have searched endlessly using every variant that I can possibly think of and I'm drawing blanks. I actually saw her perform - Can't remember who she is, what she was singing, or even where it was - I just kept staring at her mouth - mesmerized - transfixed - you get the idea - I can describe every one of her teeth from the incisors to the canines to the bicuspids to the molars with a level of detail that would shame her dentist.

Two other "clues" - she's "relatively" attractive and has dark hair.

So if anyone could please identify a female singer who's "relatively" attractive, has dark hair, and has the really off-the-wall completely nuts almost insanely distracting vocal technique, I would be most grateful.

She's a real singer - seriously - I wanted to post a video of her here and ask what the general consensus was on her technique.

*Found her - Vivica Genaux*


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Shaughnessy said:


> Two other "clues" - she's "relatively" attractive and has dark hair.
> 
> So if anyone could please identify a female singer who's "relatively" attractive, has dark hair, and has the really off-the-wall completely nuts almost insanely distracting vocal technique, I would be most grateful.
> 
> She's a real singer - seriously - I wanted to post a video of her here and ask what the general consensus was on her technique.


Cecilia Bartoli?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

wkasimer said:


> Cecilia Bartoli?


That was my thought too.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

wkasimer said:


> Cecilia Bartoli?


Found her - Vivica Genaux - She's a mezzo - see clip below...


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

*Vivica Genaux*

Especially at the 1:50 mark...



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivica_Genaux


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

"*she raises her upper lip like a rabid squirrel*, extends her lower jaw, exposes her bottom teeth and *rapidly chatters like a crazed chipmunk hopped up on off-brand generic Mexican amphetamines *whilst ornamenting whatever she's singing to within an inch of its life."

Not too shabby a description for an Irish guy....If I do say so myself. - Having said that -

If Vivica Genaux is anyone's favorite singer and I have just mortally insulted you to an extent in which you will never rest until you have actually hunted me down, allow me to extend this sincere apology.

Seriously, I meant no offense, and will apologize to anyone who's offended - but even the fab-looking French babe at the beginning refers to her as "_artiste unique_" - and she is nothing if not "unique".

Here's an entire page of her performances on YouTube -



https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=viveca+genaux


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Shaughnessy said:


> "*she raises her upper lip like a rabid squirrel*, extends her lower jaw, exposes her bottom teeth and *rapidly chatters like crazed chipmunk on off-brand generic Mexican amphetamines *whilst ornamenting whatever she's singing to within an inch of its life."


A very efficient chipmunk. It's hard for me to know the quality of her voice; I'll check her out in repertoire that's more to my liking.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Twice - Not once - but twice - I described Vivica Genaux as "relatively" attractive in the posts above - She's actually beautiful - very beautiful - and that's usually the first thing that I notice about a woman - It's also the second and the third thing - but that feckiig chattering was so distracting that I couldn't even tell the difference between "relatively" attractive and "very beautiful" - the very thought of which makes me light-headed.

She could be the finest mezzo since Janet Baker but unless you're listening to a recording or you're sitting in an auditorium with your eyes squeezed tightly shut, how can one possibly focus on anything other than that really off-the-wall completely nuts almost insanely distracting vocal technique?


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

This is not just good baroque singing but just glorious singing in general. I would love to have a whole recording of this opera with Zeani.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Back to baroque - Jump to 3:00 mark - Listen - and express your opinion on Simone Kermes -


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Shaughnessy said:


> Found her - Vivica Genaux - She's a mezzo-soprano - see clip below...


She was my second choice.


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## OffPitchNeb (Jun 6, 2016)

Don't forget these:


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

I've heard Vivica Genaux live and despite of a little prejudice enjoyed it. Her high and low notes seemed to me impressive, all the same her coloratura. In the middle she sounds sometimes like a cat for my taste. Parts without those vertiginous jumps between registers seem to be less suitable for her. But she can show herself much better in certain repertoire. 
In Grossfestspielhaus she was heard well (with baroque orchestra, of course). And I sat far enough to escape close investigation of her peculiar vocal technique. Myopia has some advantages. But she's a really beautiful woman and I believe that camera is not a friend of opera singer.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Shaughnessy said:


> Back to baroque - Jump to 3:00 mark - Listen - and express your opinion on Simone Kermes -


I've heard Kermes but never seen her before. What is she doing with her body? And what is that hideous dress? Is this a parody? Are Baroque singers susceptible to some kind of brain virus that causes muscle spasms? Are they deficient in potassium and magnesium? Maybe Kermes, Genaux and Bartoli should get together as a comedy act.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

I think that her expressions are a little excessive too. 
As for dress, different points of view are possible. It's known that until mature if not fading classicism there were no period costumes in the theater. Singers and artists worked in modern dress, but more bright and fancy, they even invented there scenic wardrobe by themselves. I read about Cuzzoni who sang Rodelinda in a brown dress with silver lace or embroidery which seemed not very exquisite but immediately became fashionable. Maybe Kermes meant something like this. 
And what about singing and voice? I'm concerned in professional opinion. 
P. S. Bartoli by the way is usually well dressed.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

As for initial selection, I found Rita Shane ravishing. Ramey is magnificent too, but it's not that way of baroque singing we are used to. Tenors didn't impress at all. Monica Sinclair, another new name for me, left mixed feelings. Coloratura is good but the voice itself is weird. 
Of course I'm not a professional, my preferences don't have any theoretical base, only emotional, I'm spoiled by historically informed performances, so my opinion is not absolute. 
I couldn't hear masters of the past live, all we have is their recordings (if they exist). Furthermore, nothing can change a live performance. So, despite of certain decline of opera in general I keep on enjoy it. And baroque is one of my favorite periods in music.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

The singers within the thread would be the ones to judge the merit of this statement - 

"Genaux’s singing exhibits some technical difficulties that will probably result in a short career. Her jaw is terribly tense, moving with every note. This results in distracting facial expressions, and affects slower passages, for instance in Vivaldi’s _Cor mio che prigion sei_ (My heart, held prisoner), in which a phrase on “ah” comes out not as one “ah,” but as “wa wa wa.” It is amazing how well she performs with this jaw tension, but it will eventually take its toll on that lovely voice."









Vivica Genaux Brings Down the House


The Alaskan mezzo, backed by Philharmonia Baroque, launches brilliant vocal fireworks that burst into full bloom.




www.sfcv.org





Which can be contrasted with this - 

"Coloratura singing, as a wise observer remarked, is a bit like dancing on pointe: bizarre and unnatural, but powerfully compelling when done well. Vivica Genaux does it very well indeed.

Rapid-fire runs, repeated notes, pitch-perfect leaps between registers, elaborate ornamentations of melodic lines that were already fairly ornate to begin with - these are Genaux's stock-in-trade. With McGegan and the orchestra providing stylish accompaniment, Genaux made a good case for Baroque singing as a thrilling high-wire act."









Vivica Genaux with Baroque Orchestra, review:


Rapid-fire runs, repeated notes, pitch-perfect leaps between registers, elaborate...




www.sfgate.com


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Deleted duplicate post - Website crashed and upon return, the above post apparently replicated itself.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

This "Total Baroque" channel on YouTube has some lovely performances of vocal works _sans hystérique -_



https://www.youtube.com/c/TotalBaroque



I was particularly impressed with Magdalena Kožená - Marc-Antoine Charpentier - Quel prix de mon amour, quel fruit de mes forfaits


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Shaughnessy said:


> The singers within the thread would be the ones to judge the merit of this statement -
> 
> "Genaux’s singing exhibits some technical difficulties that will probably result in a short career. Her jaw is terribly tense, moving with every note. This results in distracting facial expressions, and affects slower passages, for instance in Vivaldi’s _Cor mio che prigion sei_ (My heart, held prisoner), in which a phrase on “ah” comes out not as one “ah,” but as “wa wa wa.” It is amazing how well she performs with this jaw tension, but it will eventually take its toll on that lovely voice."


Well, she's been singing that way for 25 years....


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

wkasimer said:


> Well, she's been singing that way for 25 years....


Longer, she'll be 53 this July 10th - Could be as many as 40 years if she started doing it early enough. Can only wonder why one of her voice teachers didn't just say - "Viv, seriously, knock it off ?"


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Shaughnessy said:


> Longer, she'll be 53 this July 10th - Could be as many as 40 years if she started doing it early enough. Can only wonder why one of her voice teachers didn't just say - "Viv, seriously, knock it off - WTF?"


Voice teachers nowadays seem to be, for the most part, completely inept to the point that it's pretty much downright fraudulent. How many students go to a conservatoire, pay thousands of pounds, only to have their voice totally and irreversibly ruined. Not everyone will suffer in the same way but it's hardly okay.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Op.123 said:


> Voice teachers nowadays seem to be, for the most part, completely inept to the point that it's pretty much downright fraudulent. How many students go to a conservatoire, pay thousands of pounds, only to have their voice totally and irreversibly ruined. Not everyone will suffer in the same way but it's hardly okay.


I know that Woodduck and Tsaraslondon are professional singers and some of the others here may also be, but I'm not. The only voice lessons that I've ever received tended to be along the lines of
"Oh, fer chrissakes, Shaughnessy, give it a rest, lad... Jaysus...."


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## Jan Arell (7 mo ago)

Woodduck said:


> That was my thought too.


Bartoli is more bel canto but has done some baroque too. Vivaldi, I think. For baroque I prefer voices without too much vibrato. Carolyn Sampson is probably my favourite baroque soprano, heard to most advantage on some of the 55 discs in the BIS edition of Bach’s cantatas, which I’m actually working my way through this spring and summer for the second time.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Singers like Genaux, Sampson, Bartoli were probably not taught to sing just with the voice, but with the body, or parts thereof. Not necessarily wanting to hold up Auger as an example, but notice how she sings the divisions with almost no effort besides moving her head a little.
The body, is after all, a singer’s instrument (just not the whole instrument).


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

A modern baroque singer.


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## OffPitchNeb (Jun 6, 2016)

My main problem with current baroque singing is that the voices are usually small. I assess this not from recordings, but from various recitals I have attended. 

I don't understand; you can still have a big voice and execute florid music, right? Look at Callas, Sutherland, Leider, etc.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

OffPitchNeb said:


> My main problem with current baroque singing is that the voices are usually small. I assess this not from recordings, but from various recitals I have attended.
> 
> I don't understand; you can still have a big voice and execute florid music, right? Look at Callas, Sutherland, Leider, etc.


That’s very true, but, let’s face it, large voices with great flexibility have always been rare. Callas came as a great shock to most people and a lot of the roles she sang (Lucia, Elvira and Amina for instance) were considered the province of light voiced soubrettes back then. 
I’m any case, I have a feeling Callas and Sutherland would completely overpower a HIP band.


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## OffPitchNeb (Jun 6, 2016)

Tsaraslondon said:


> That’s very true, but, let’s face it, large voices with great flexibility have always been rare. Callas came as a great shock to most people and a lot of the roles she sang (Lucia, Elvira and Amina for instance) were considered the province of light voiced soubrettes back then.
> *I’m any case, I have a feeling Callas and Sutherland would completely overpower a HIP band.*


I feel like a moderate-sized voice like Freni or Cotrubas would be enough to overpower the modern HIP "orchestra".


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> That’s very true, but, let’s face it, large voices with great flexibility have always been rare. Callas came as a great shock to most people and a lot of the roles she sang (Lucia, Elvira and Amina for instance) were considered the province of light voiced soubrettes back then.
> I’m any case, I have a feeling Callas and Sutherland would completely overpower a HIP band.


I don't think they'd necessarily overpower an HIP band, plenty of large voices can be supported by a solo piano and still sound great. Undoubtedly the composers were used to at least fairly large voiced singers in their dramatic roles


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Op.123 said:


> I don't think they'd necessarily overpower an HIP band, plenty of large voices can be supported by a solo piano and still sound great. Undoubtedly the composers were used to at least fairly large voiced singers in their dramatic roles


Well, maybe, but we don't really know what it was like in Handel's time. Theatres were generally smaller. That much we do know. Presumably smaller theatres and smaller orchestras meant that voices didn't need so much power.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Well, maybe, but we don't really know what it was like in Handel's time. Theatres were generally smaller. That much we do know. Presumably smaller theatres and smaller orchestras meant that voices didn't need so much power.


Yes, I doubt many voices were the size of the Wagnerian dramatics of the early twentieth century. But that said, castratos were said to have possessed huge power and voices were trained with proper release and resonance so even the smaller voices would have seemed bigger and fuller than most of those singing the repertoire today. I think Baroque sounds great with a big voice, Sutherland's early Alcina, one of her only records I'm overly fond of, is gorgeous, and in earlier classical repertoire Callas excelled in Gluck, her Ifigenia is excellent. I would have loved to hear Ponselle sing Handel's cleopatra or something like that!


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

"Messiah" competition gave me an idea that we shouldn't neglect neither "authentical", nor "classical " performances of baroque music.


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## PaulFranz (May 7, 2019)

McCormack:






McCormack:






McKellar:






Tucker:






Natzka:






Elwes:

gervase elwes, tenor j.s.bach "lift up your heads on high"

Macneil:

Can a dramatic baritone sing Handel? Cornell MacNeil in Samson: Honor and arms - 1969 #RARE

Dawson and Radford:

The Lord Is A Man Of War (Israel In Egypt)

Wunderlich:

J.S. Bach: Christmas Oratorio, BWV 248 / Pt. 1 - For the First Day of Christmas - No. 2...

Treigle:

Giulio Cesare in Egitto, HWV 17: Act I, Alma del gran Pompeo

Williams:

Evan Williams, tenor Acis and Galatea "Love in her eyes.." Händel, 1909.

Butt:

Serse (Xerxes) , HWV 40, Act I: Ombra mai fu, "Largo"

Eddy:

NELSON EDDY SINGS - WHERE ER YOU WALK- handel - 1939 BROADCAST

Albani:

Fra pensieri quel pensiero, HWV 115: Aria: Fra pensieri quel pensiero

de Luca:

Rinaldo, HWV 7, Act II: Armida dispietata!

Shirley-Quirk:

Secular Cantata for Baritone, Two Violins and Continuo 'When Night Her Purple Veil'

Crooks:

Richard Crooks - Comfort Ye My People (Victor, 1942)

Jadlowker:









Hermann Jadlowker: 1927 "Vittoria mio core" in HD


Hermann Jadlowker (1877-1953) sings "Vittoria mio core"Dr. Steinberger, piano accompanimentrecorded in 1927 in Germany Digitally transferred directly from an...




www.youtube.com





McKellar actually has an excellent album of Handel arias, which shocked me. McCormack is probably the best Baroque singer I've heard, which does not at all shock me. Next is probably Natzka. On top of that, Treigle is my favorite singer in general, and I think Natzka, Elwes, and Williams are three of the most underrated/unjustly forgotten singers ever, so this was a fun list to put together. Most of these singers recorded lots of Baroque for their time. I tried to include the most people possible without duplicating songs, so maybe not everyone is shown to best advantage. That's definitely not Elwes's best recording, for example. I'd've loved to put Battstini's Vittoria, but he doesn't hit the low notes. 

Also, it's nice hearing so much great classical singing in English. The English-speaking world tended to favor recitals over opera until the explosion of home-grown talent in the Met in the mid-20th century, and I think recital singers took to Baroque repertoire in a way that working stage singers didn't.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Shaughnessy said:


> Back to baroque - Jump to 3:00 mark - Listen - and express your opinion on Simone Kermes -


I'm reminded of




Patricia JANEČKOVÁ, soprano - "New Years Concert in Vienna Style“


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I would put forward Kathleen Ferrier and Jennifer Larmore as candidates. I don't believe any here could find significant technical faults with either and Ferrier showed how it's possible to sing with soul whilst respecting the style of baroque and Larmore had stunning coloratura.

N.


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## PaulFranz (May 7, 2019)




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## PaulFranz (May 7, 2019)

Did my giant post with a million links show up here? Just wondering.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

PaulFranz said:


> Did my giant post with a million links show up here? Just wondering.


One day I listen to it all!


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## PaulFranz (May 7, 2019)




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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

PaulFranz said:


>


Evidently from a time when no one had any idea how to sing or play Monteverdi. It may be good singing, but good _Baroque_ singing? Still interesting and worth hearing as a historical document. I'd guess that no one else here could have come up with it.


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## PaulFranz (May 7, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> Evidently from a time when no one had any idea how to sing or play Monteverdi. It may be good singing, but good _Baroque_ singing? Still interesting and worth hearing as a historical document. I'd guess that no one else here could have come up with it.


What's wrong with it as Baroque singing? Lack of ornamentation?


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

How about these women? I very seldom listen to vocal music...


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

PaulFranz said:


> What's wrong with it as Baroque singing? Lack of ornamentation?


Sure - that, and the variety of articulation that naturally comes with it. Listening to this, so bare, uninflected and "liturgical," I found myself thinking of Boris Godunov.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> How about these women? I very seldom listen to vocal music...


These are more examples of what not to do. Weak, unsupported singing that sounds superficially pretty.


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