# Charles Ives



## World Violist

You all knew somebody was going to put this one up...

He was the composer who foretold musical events before they happened: quarter-tones, polytonality, multiple time- and key-signatures at the same time, tone clusters... all before any Schoenbergs or Bartoks or those guys ever so much as thought of their innovations.

But then again, the guy was ignored basically until all the aforementioned "innovations" were made, thus the (unjustified) confusion over who really thought them all up FIRST.


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## Lang

Ives was a truly great composer. Not only did he write really big works, in all senses, like the symphonies, he was also a great song writer and I believe wrote some of the greatest songs of the twentieth century.


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## Weston

I find him more listenable than Schoenberg and maybe even Bartok. He was definitely an outsider artist. I enjoy "Hallowe'en" and "The Gong on the Hook and Ladder" among others.


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## Lang

If you ever get the opportunity listen to 'Tom Sails Away' - one of the most moving songs I know.


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## Zombo

Awesome composer, I love his symphonies and his microtonal piano works.


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## shsherm

A year or two ago the Dallas Symphony did a series of compositions which were written by Ives. I attended some of these performances and generally enjoy the music Ives wrote but he eventually stopped composing and ran an insurance company.


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## World Violist

He ran an insurance company while he was composing anyway. This provided him with financial security while he composed works that were pretty well doomed to obscurity almost until he died.


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## JTech82

It's a shame about Ives being totally obscure during his lifetime, but then again so was Arnold Bax and we all know what an amazing composer he was.

I own several recordings by Ives. One of with Bernstein and the others with Michael Tilson Thomas and various orchestras like Chicago Symphony and Concertgebouw Orch. Amsterdam.

I love his work and really admire what he did and just how creative those pieces he wrote are. Very underrated composer in every sense.


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## Bach

Immensely intelligent composer. Lots of admiration from Bach.


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## xJuanx

Hoppi90111 said:


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## Sid James

I've just become reacquainted with Ives after a long time. Yesterday I borrowed the Naxos disc of his_* Three Orchestral Sets*_ from the library. It's really interesting music, very individual. Just what I've come to expect from the composers in that circle in New York during the 1920's which Ives was part of - it included Varese, Cowell & Carter.

There is something very dark about some of the music on this disc. The music seems to suggest night in the outdoors to me, with people sitting around a campfire in the bush. The orchestration reminds me more of operatic than orchestral composers, particularly Puccini's _Turandot_ & Berg's operas. It is very luscious in some places, and he doesn't lock you in with a melody or a particular rhythm. It's quite free, really, like the music of those other composers. Hard to believe that it was written in the 1910's & '20's. There's also something dramatic about this music, particularly in the way marching band themes sometimes interrupt the proceedings. I've come to the conclusion that I must buy this disc at some stage, I have enjoyed it so much!


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## Sebastien Melmoth

Yesterday on the radio I heard *Ives' First Symphony*, which I hadn't listened to for a long time.
I was reminded of all the things I like about Ives: his unusually piquant harmonies and quirky melodies above all.

Ives' First is a wonderful symphony, as are his Second and Third.

One of the interesting things about Ives is his unique space-time: turn-of-the-century Connecticut.
That space-time was special and never to be repeated.
(Of course, that could be said of all space-times, but we prioritize everything, don't we?)


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## emiellucifuge

Made huge leaps in conveying philosophy through art, including the great aggregate harmonies in his unfinished Universe Symphony.


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## jurianbai

I really like his "From the Salvation Army" quartet, lyricism enough. The second one is more complex , Ives described the piece “Four men--converse, discuss, argue--fight, shake hands, shut up--then walk up the mountainside to view the firmament.”

I also learn that the violist from Concord String quartet is also in Blair SQ. I have both of their recording playing Ives.


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## Huilunsoittaja

Could someone describe to me the inspiration Ives had for his polytonal/quarter-tone experiments? In other words, why did he do it?


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## Sebastien Melmoth

Huilunsoittaja said:


> _quarter-tone experiments?_


That's something that was 'in the air' in the early-20th Century.

Other composers experimented with microtones, especially the Czech Alois Hába who had a remarkable microtonal piano built by August Förster with three keyboards and 264 keys.


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## Romantic Geek

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Could someone describe to me the inspiration Ives had for his polytonal/quarter-tone experiments? In other words, why did he do it?


Simply because he could. I did a report on Ives for my music history class. One book mentioned he'd try to sneak in non-chord tones when playing hymns at church (he was an organist...a very good one too!) I think he loved the idea of challenging common conception. Hell, he is one of the reasons the insurance industry didn't bite the dust in 1907.


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## Lunasong

Norman Lebrecht has published a blog post that the house that Charles Ives built in 1912 in Connecticut and lived in until his death in 1954 is up for sale and slated for demolition. Curiously, even though the Ives family has occupied the house since, Lebrecht reports that in a tour, many Ives artifacts have been left untouched since his death.








Ives's composing desk.

*edit*
related link.


> The reality is that artists' legacies are preserved mainly if they arrange for it themselves and have the money to finance it, or if they have champions after they die. The latter mainly means that in one way or another, people can make a living on your legacy.


sad.

*edit*
http://www.facebook.com/SaveTheCharlesIvesHouse
newly opened campaign to save the house.


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## chalkpie

If anybody needs info or recommendations on Ives discs, don't hesitate to ask. He is one of my favorite composers and I own a boatload of Ives discs - I'd say easily over 50, maybe closer to 60. A genius way ahead of his time, even to this day, that didn't belong to any "school".






Here is some Ives most likely you have never heard. It is from his Set No. 6 - "From the Side Hill", and is in 4 short movements.

Another gem is Psalm 90, one of his greatest creations:


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## Blake

Great guy, this guy. I'm going to dive into his symphonies and orchestral works tonight.


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## hpowders

Hey Charles. Everyone else is busy taking pot shots at Lang Lang.
Anyhow, just want to say I love your Concord Piano Sonata!


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## PetrB

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Could someone describe to me the inspiration Ives had for his polytonal/quarter-tone experiments? In other words, why did he do it?


Ives related an event in his childhood: the town was having a celebration; included were several marching bands. Ives' father brought him up to the bell tower of the town's church, where he could hear several bands marching from different directions in to town, each of course playing a different piece.

The simultaneous sounding of two bands, including the doppler effect, all in combination are what Ives heard. Commenting upon the composite sound his father had brought his son up in to that church tower to hear, his father said, "You must learn to stretch your ears!"

Ives recalling of that event in what seems a tone of both pride and delight, perhaps in response to a question like yours, or to account for some of his aesthetic and techniques, is I think a sort of explanation in part of 'why Ives was Ives.'


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## tdc

Recently picked up the symphonies conducted by Mehta, I was quite happy with the interpretations, except the very ending of the first in which I can barely hear the timpani. I'm not sure how the dynamics are marked in the score but in the ending of Ives first I love the timpani/percussion played very loudly like in this interpretation: (the part I'm referring to is the very ending from about 36:50 to the end of the symphony).






^^^^Now _that_ is a truly stunning conclusion to a great symphony, hats off to you Platonov.


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## joen_cph

Once heard a - supposedly not very informed - Danish radio speaker announce Ives´ name with a ~"French" pronounciation, a la "_Eaves_".

Are there any Americans here who ever heard that version, isn´t "_Aives_" always the correct one?


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## hpowders

Never. Aives is correct. When you listen to the Concord piano sonata it always comes out "aives". Proudly American!

That announcer should be shot!!!


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## millionrainbows

For *the short pieces*, get the one conducted by *Gunther Schuller*. Berstein is on the same disc; it has fireworks on the cover (Sony).

For *Three Places*, get *Tilson Thomas/Boston SO *on DG. Also, get Tilson-Thomas'* Holidays Symphony.
*
Get all of Bernstein with NYP (Sony).

For the two *String Quartets*, get *Julliard SQ *on Newton.

For *Songs,* get the Albany series on 4 CDs.

For *Concord Sonata*, get Bojan Gorisek (Audiophile Classics), and Marc Hamelin (Hyperion).

For *Sonatas for Violin & Piano*, get* Paul Zukofsky *and *Gilbert Kalish *on *Folkways* (caution: these are two CD-Rs).

Get* Ives Plays Ives. * Check out his vocal on "They Are There!" Ha haaa...


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## elgar's ghost

I've only one word for those developers who would demolish the old Ives home without taking into account its cultural significance:

SH*TKICKERS!


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## Mahlerian

hpowders said:


> That announcer should be shot!!!


Eh, most announcers over here butcher names too. Messy-an, Bawk, Sure-en-burg, and so forth...


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## hpowders

Mahlerian said:


> Eh, most announcers over here butcher names too. Messy-an, Bawk, Sure-en-burg, and so forth...


The one that irks me the most is Mo*z*art as in *z*ion.


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## chalkpie

His father George made a profound impact on Charlie, he was the one marching opposing bands passing by each other in Danbury. Ives took from both his father George and learned the tools of the trade with Horatio Parker at Yale, who stifled his true original voice/creativity. His graduating composition is his first symphony, absolutely LOVELY if you have never heard it.


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## hpowders

It's okay, but when I want to listen to Ives it's the Third Symphony and Concord Piano Sonata that do it for me.


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## Berlioznestpasmort

joen_cph said:


> Once heard a - supposedly not very informed - Danish radio speaker announce Ives´ name with a ~"French" pronounciation, a la "_Eaves_".
> 
> Are there any Americans here who ever heard that version, isn´t "_Aives_" always the correct one?


A thread could be started on funny and foolish announcer pronunciation. There is no excuse for it; there are a handful of books specifically designed for DJs to help them with composer names. I once heard _Janacek_ spoken on air: Jane - a - sek.


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## chalkpie

This is the perfect piece for us basta** in the north east!


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## chalkpie

hpowders said:


> It's okay, but when I want to listen to Ives it's the Third Symphony and Concord Piano Sonata that do it for me.


Of course. It's not the "Golden" Era of Ives (ha), but its a great snapshot of Ives in his youth. Its all part of the pizza pie.


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## millionrainbows

There's an interesting "conceptual continuity" to Ives, a term I got from Frank Zappa. For instance, from *Three Places In New England*, the movement _"The Housatonic at Stockbridge" _is based on the song _"Contented River."

_This happens frequently in Ives; the same hymns and popular, patriotic, and college songs keep cropping up.


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## Fortinbras Armstrong

World Violist said:


> He ran an insurance company while he was composing anyway. This provided him with financial security while he composed works that were pretty well doomed to obscurity almost until he died.


Another artist who worked for an insurance company was the poet Wallace Stevens, who was executive VP of the Hartford Accident and Indemnity Company, which paid him very well.


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## User in F minor

millionrainbows said:


> There's an interesting "conceptual continuity" to Ives, a term I got from Frank Zappa. For instance, from *Three Places In New England*, the movement _"The Housatonic at Stockbridge" _is based on the song _"Contented River."
> 
> _This happens frequently in Ives; the same hymns and popular, patriotic, and college songs keep cropping up.


This is something that I wonder about. Is it possible for a non-yankee to _really_ get Ives' music? All of the musical tradition that he uses as building blocks is unfamiliar to me. I've gotten to know some of the songs he used and I've read about camp meetings on Wikipedia and stuff, but the doubt remains.

Also, is that musical tradition still around? If you pick a random 16-year-old US kid, how likely is it that (s)he's familiar with, say, "Marching Through Georgia"?

On topic, I <3 the fourth symphony. Dallas SO/Litton FTW.


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## hpowders

chalkpie said:


> Of course. It's not the "Golden" Era of Ives (ha), but its a great snapshot of Ives in his youth. Its all part of the pizza pie.


A day without Ives is like a day without Yankee hymns.


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## Guest

I've ignored Ives for too long. I heard a couple of symphonies way back when I was pretty new to this stuff, so that doesn't count. He is now on top of the to-do list.


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## millionrainbows

This is the new reissue of the Columbia LP, on Newton Classics. Below is the original Columbia cover.


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## millionrainbows

A rather unassuming cover, but this is the reissue of the "short works" conducted by *Gunther Schuller (*not mentioned on this front cover), originally a Columbia Masterworks LP entitled _*Calcium Light Night, *_pictured below.


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## EdwardBast

World Violist said:


> You all knew somebody was going to put this one up...
> 
> He was the composer who foretold musical events before they happened: quarter-tones, polytonality, multiple time- and key-signatures at the same time, tone clusters... all before any Schoenbergs or Bartoks or those guys ever so much as thought of their innovations.


Maynard Solomon argued that there is no evidence that any of these "innovations" are authentic, alleging a systematic fraud perpetrated by predating his compositions and after the fact revisions to introduce more modern elements. ("Some Questions of Veracity in the Music of Charles Ives," _Journal of the American Musicological Society_ 40, no 3, 1987) He even cites the eyewitness account of another well-known composer (It's been a long time but I think it was Elliot Carter?) who actually saw him changing sequences of octaves into 7ths and 9ths to make it sound like he was an innovator.

Solomon also argued that Ive's claims about the innovations of his father were likewise fabricated for self-serving reasons.



World Violist said:


> But then again, the guy was ignored basically until all the aforementioned "innovations" were made, thus the (unjustified) confusion over who really thought them all up FIRST.


Solomon pointed out that his relative obscurity and lack of early publication was precisely what allowed him to perpetrate such a massive fraud.

Please note: I was never particularly interested in Ives, so I didn't follow the later ramifications of the controversy Solomon's article set in motion. For all I know, Solomon's claims could have been refuted. But listeners should certainly be aware of it in case they wish to follow up. I'd be curious about how that whole controversy played out.

Say it ain't so Charles! No one wants to believe an insurance salesman could do anything so untoward.


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## dgee

Interesting Edward - I don't know a lot about Ives and had never heard of any Solomon controversy before but there appears to evidence that Ives did revisit his scores to spice them up a bit. Here's Alex Ross in 2004 pointing some stuff out (along with his usual sniping at Eurpoean modernism and anyone influenced by it - yawn, Alex!):

http://www.therestisnoise.com/2004/05/charles_ives.html

No real smoking gun that this was done to spruik his innovation credentials. If you google it there are also a lot of Ives fans discrediting Solomon and the damage he hath wrought. Overall seems an curly case and I would also be interested in a definitive, neutral and current summary of where thinking on this has got to (good luck lolz!)


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## EdwardBast

dgee said:


> No real smoking gun that this was done to spruik his innovation credentials. If you google it there are also a lot of Ives fans discrediting Solomon and the damage he hath wrought. Overall seems an curly case and I would also be interested in a definitive, neutral and current summary of where thinking on this has got to (good luck lolz!)


I'd like to hear such a summary too, but I'm not going to do the heavy lifting.

Here is a review of a new biography that takes up the issues Solomon raised:

http://www.amazon.com/review/RMI4RVNBWCDHM


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## Kilgore Trout

EdwardBast said:


> Maynard Solomon argued that there is no evidence that any of these "innovations" are authentic, alleging a systematic fraud perpetrated by predating his compositions and after the fact revisions to introduce more modern elements. ("Some Questions of Veracity in the Music of Charles Ives," _Journal of the American Musicological Society_ 40, no 3, 1987) He even cites the eyewitness account of another well-known composer (It's been a long time but I think it was Elliot Carter?) who actually saw him changing sequences of octaves into 7ths and 9ths to make it sound like he was an innovator.


This has been since proven to be false by various scholars. Gayle Sherwood Magee did a survey of the manuscripts, and confirmed most of Ives' own dates. Some were wrong, but Ives dated his works more than twenty years after having written them (do you remember exactly when you did something twenty years ago ?), and the mistakes were in both directions : some works were actually written sooner than Ives said.
The Sinclair catalog and the Grove have the latest dates, with all the infos to clarify that situation.

The Elliot Carter anecdote is little evidence : it was a very well known anecdote, and didn't tell much about Ives. Elliot Carter, who did not like Ives' music, saw Ives revising _Three places in New England_ in the late 1920s: the revisions Ives did were well know for years, and the piece was largely modern enough before these revisions. One of the only case of blatant addition of modern elements is the second symphony ending : Ives added these elements (they're pretty obvious) following advice from Henry Cowell, and regretted it later.
The work in progress approach has always existed in Ives' work, and should be considered a part of his way of working.
Moreoever, if someone has any doubt, there are facts that you don't need to be scholar to know: the concord sonata was published in 1919, and the 114 songs were published in 1922: both work displays (especially concord, which is as modern as Ives can get) the same technics that are supposed to be displayed in works that have been written later. If Ives was able to write these works before 1919, why would he have had to wait 20 years to write others works in the same vein? It makes no sense at all.
Any composer's life contains made up stories, anecdotes, wrong facts, and we don't make a fuss about it.

In short, Ives' most modern pieces were for their most part written before 1919 and the dates from Sinclair's catalog are right, within a 2-3 years range.

Let's put that controversy to rest. Listen to the music : it's unique, wether it was written in the 1910s, the 1920s or the 1930s.


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## tdc

Yes, from what I've read the only thing that can really be proved beyond a doubt is that Ives liked to revise his works a lot.

As Stuart Feder put it in his book _Charles Ives, "My Father's Song": A Psychoanalytic Biography_ (A book which casts doubt on a lot of Solomon's claims) :

"What is not in question *from any quarter* is the authenticity of Charles Ives voice as an original and unique composer."


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## EdwardBast

Kilgore Trout said:


> This has been since proven to be false by various scholars. Gayle Sherwood Magee did a survey of the manuscripts, and confirmed most of Ives' own dates. Some were wrong, but Ives dated his works more than twenty years after having written them (do you remember exactly when you did something twenty years ago ?), and the mistakes were in both directions : some works were actually written sooner than Ives said.
> The Sinclair catalog and the Grove have the latest dates, with all the infos to clarify that situation.
> 
> The Elliot Carter anecdote is little evidence : it was a very well known anecdote, and didn't tell much about Ives. Elliot Carter, who did not like Ives' music, saw Ives revising _Three places in New England_ in the late 1920s: the revisions Ives did were well know for years, and the piece was largely modern enough before these revisions. One of the only case of blatant addition of modern elements is the second symphony ending : Ives added these elements (they're pretty obvious) following advice from Henry Cowell, and regretted it later.
> The work in progress approach has always existed in Ives' work, and should be considered a part of his way of working.
> Moreoever, if someone has any doubt, there are facts that you don't need to be scholar to know: the concord sonata was published in 1919, and the 114 songs were published in 1922: both work displays (especially concord, which is as modern as Ives can get) the same technics that are supposed to be displayed in works that have been written later. If Ives was able to write these works before 1919, why would he have had to wait 20 years to write others works in the same vein? It makes no sense at all.
> Any composer's life contains made up stories, anecdotes, wrong facts, and we don't make a fuss about it.
> 
> In short, Ives' most modern pieces were for their most part written before 1919 and the dates from Sinclair's catalog are right, within a 2-3 years range.
> 
> Let's put that controversy to rest. Listen to the music : it's unique, wether it was written in the 1910s, the 1920s or the 1930s.


The dates on the manuscripts record when the work was initially composed. Dates of revisions are pretty much impossible to establish, given Ives continual work at revision over many years. The question in which I am interested is this: Is there any clear evidence that the essential claim of the Ives mythology, that he arrived at innovations like polytonality before his European counterparts, is true?


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## Kilgore Trout

The undoubtful evidence is the Concord sonata. It was published in january of 1921 (and not 1919 as I've said earlier), so it was achieved at most in 1920 (and probably before), and contains pretty much every technic Ives developped, except obviously the stuff that can only be done by an orchestra (like spacialization). So, his musical language was fully formed at the latest in 1920.
There are other evidence of scores or parts from before that date (early polytonal experiments reach back to the time Ives was a teenager, and full written psalms around 1899-1900), but no one wrote anything close to Ives' music in 1920 anyway (even if there is polytonaly before that date (Stravinsky, Bartok...), the way Ives uses it has little to do with them).


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## WienerKonzerthaus

*Kent Nagano on Charles Ives*

Perhaps, hopefully, possibly of interest here (or in other threads that I didn't, however, find):

The following interview with Kent Nagano, exclusively on Charles Ives.

In English... (but also in German, for those who prefer it)

The Profound Existentialism of Charles Ives: Kent Nagano in Conversation 



http://konzerthaus.at/magazin/Home/tabid/41/entryid/343/The-Profound-Existentialism-of-Charles-Ives-Kent-Nagano-in-Conversation.aspx

Kent Nagano über Charles Ives 



http://konzerthaus.at/magazin/Home/tabid/41/entryid/344/Kent-Nagano-uber-Charles-Ives.aspx


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## millionrainbows

User in F minor said:


> This is something that I wonder about. Is it possible for a non-yankee to _really_ get Ives' music? All of the musical tradition that he uses as building blocks is unfamiliar to me. I've gotten to know some of the songs he used and I've read about camp meetings on Wikipedia and stuff, but the doubt remains.
> 
> Also, is that musical tradition still around? If you pick a random 16-year-old US kid, how likely is it that (s)he's familiar with, say, "Marching Through Georgia"?
> 
> On topic, I <3 the fourth symphony. Dallas SO/Litton FTW.


I think a better question would be, can a European or non-American 'get' Ives. I tend to trust American performances.

As far as recognizing tunes, I'm Southern, and I immediately recognized all the Baptist hymns: *Abide with Me, What a Friend We Have in Jesus,* as well as popular tunes like* Columbia, Gem of the Ocean,* used in the old Popeye cartoons.

This book will help anyone in this area:










This is a preview. The number of pages displayed is limited.


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## millionrainbows

This video really helped me understand Ives.


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## ptr

millionrainbows said:


> This video really helped me understand Ives.


Good find Rainbows! Very Educational!

/ptr


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## Avey

Alright, hey, the 11-note chord to end the _Second_ - what?!

It does make one laugh though.


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## Blancrocher

A new essay about Ives and the recent biography of him by Stephen Budiansky in the NYRB, written by the pianist Jeremy Denk.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/jun/19/charles-ives-wins/?insrc=hpma


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## chalkpie

Blancrocher said:


> A new essay about Ives and the recent biography of him by Stephen Budiansky in the NYRB, written by the pianist Jeremy Denk.
> 
> http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/jun/19/charles-ives-wins/?insrc=hpma


I love this last paragraph, and so true in my view...

I_f Ives's music often falls flat in performance, does that make the music less great? For most people the answer is unequivocally yes. But it's worth contemplating the example of three piano sonatas, all written within fifteen years of the premiere of Ives's "Concord," by three of the most important American composers: Carter, Barber, Copland. Each of these pieces attempts an epic statement, fusing popular music with the complexities of modernism. Each is more expertly composed than the "Concord"-better crafted, more transparent, more pianistic-and eminently practical in concert. But Ives's sonata towers over them all, despite or because of its doubts, sweeping past the fine points of constructing a musical work to address the nature and purpose of music itself. And that is the injustice of art; sometimes all the craft in the world is trumped by someone with something more important to say.

_


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## science

Charles Ives worked in insurance... helping wealthy people negotiate the inheritance tax. 

So Charles Ives as an existentialist is a fun thought-exercise!


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## ptr

Here's a quite interesting Youtube vid on Peter Eötvös master-class on conducting Ives Fourth:






Largely in German, but everyone here's fluent in the language of the great Bee's, right!  (It is subtitled anyway!)

/ptr


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## hpowders

The Ives' Fourth is one of the few Ives' works that I can't seem to get into. Love just about everything else. Therefore I will ignore that excerpt.


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## Cheyenne

I just ordered a book called_ Estimating Emerson_, and was surprised to find it contained an essay by Charles Ives on Emerson and American Transcendentalism! It comes from a collection of essays known as _Essays Before a Sonata_, written to be prefatory notes for his second piano sonata. They're headed: "These prefatory essays were written by the composer for those who can't stand his music-and the music for those who can't stand his essays; to those who can't stand either, the whole is respectfully dedicated."

Has anybody read them? I'll certainly dig in when I have time -- and listen to the Sonata to finish!


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## hpowders

Cheyenne said:


> I just ordered a book called_ Estimating Emerson_, and was surprised to find it contained an essay by Charles Ives on Emerson and American Transcendentalism! It comes from a collection of essays known as _Essays Before a Sonata_, written to be prefatory notes for his second piano sonata. They're headed: "These prefatory essays were written by the composer for those who can't stand his music-and the music for those who can't stand his essays; to those who can't stand either, the whole is respectfully dedicated."
> 
> Has anybody read them? I'll certainly dig in when I have time -- and listen to the Sonata to finish!


Charles Ive's Concord Piano Sonata has one of its movements named after Emerson. He was deeply into Yankee writers of the time.


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## JACE

Newly joined member here on the forum.

I love Charles Ives' music. Many years ago, I built a web site dedicated to Charles Ives and his music. I thought I'd share the link:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/Ives/index.htm

I haven't updated the site in a long time -- since 2006. But I'll get back to it some time.

Hope you might find it helpful!


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## tdc

chalkpie said:


> I love this last paragraph, and so true in my view...
> 
> I_f Ives's music often falls flat in performance, does that make the music less great? For most people the answer is unequivocally yes. But it's worth contemplating the example of three piano sonatas, all written within fifteen years of the premiere of Ives's "Concord," by three of the most important American composers: Carter, Barber, Copland. Each of these pieces attempts an epic statement, fusing popular music with the complexities of modernism. Each is more expertly composed than the "Concord"-*better crafted, more transparent, more pianistic*-and eminently practical in concert. But Ives's sonata towers over them all, despite or because of its doubts, sweeping past the fine points of constructing a musical work to address the nature and purpose of music itself. And that is the injustice of art; sometimes all the craft in the world is trumped by someone with something more important to say.
> _


Denk brings up some good points but I disagree with his idea that Ives sonata (and Ives music in general) is less expertly crafted than the other composers he mentioned - in the case of the Concord Sonata perhaps it is less transparent and less pianistic, but not to lower standards of craftsmanship. It is what it is. I don't think Ives was going for the very refined approach there. Ives use of orchestration, harmony and counterpoint is to my ear very impressive - he has unique approaches to form, but I don't think his works are in any way amateurish as Denk seems to suggest. He went beyond standard forms and practices. His music is often quite challenging to listeners and performers, this could be why Denk feels it often falls flat, but I disagree its due to any issues of Ives having less compositional abilities. I think what he refers to is a style issue more than a skills issue.


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## hpowders

The Ives Concord piano sonata is one of the greatest of all time. In my opinion, ranks right up there with Beethoven's Hammerklavier sonata.


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## BurningDesire

I really resent the common dismissal of Ives as an amateur. Music doesn't need to be derived from some strict system to be valid. What Ives was... was an incredible artist, and an imaginative visionary.


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## Torkelburger

JACE said:


> Newly joined member here on the forum.
> 
> I love Charles Ives' music. Many years ago, I built a web site dedicated to Charles Ives and his music. I thought I'd share the link:
> 
> http://www.musicweb-international.com/Ives/index.htm
> 
> I haven't updated the site in a long time -- since 2006. But I'll get back to it some time.
> 
> Hope you might find it helpful!


Really neat site! Good job!


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## Torkelburger

One of my favorite little Ives gems:


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## Torkelburger

One of the trivial and interesting facts about Ives is that composer Bernard Herrmann was one of the people primarily responsible for discovering and promoting Ives' music. Here is an incredible article Herrmann wrote in 1932 about the then-unknown Ives:

http://www.bernardherrmann.org/articles/archive-trend/

Before he was a film composer, Herrmann conducted the CBS orchestra in NY on the radio and introduced America to Ives' music. Here he is at the 11:14 mark talking about the difficulties he had getting Stokowski interested when he presented him with Ives' music. The person he is quoting when he first speaks to the camera is Ives. Amazing to hear. We are so indebted to Herrmann for his unrelenting efforts.


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## JACE

Torkelburger said:


> Really neat site! Good job!


Thanks.

It was fun putting it together. And it gave me a wonderful "excuse" to buy & listen to a LOT of Ives' music.


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## arpeggio

*Denk & Ives*



tdc said:


> Denk brings up some good points but I disagree with his idea that Ives sonata (and Ives music in general) is less expertly crafted than the other composers he mentioned - in the case of the Concord Sonata perhaps it is less transparent and less pianistic, but not to lower standards of craftsmanship. It is what it is. I don't think Ives was going for the very refined approach there. Ives use of orchestration, harmony and counterpoint is to my ear very impressive - he has unique approaches to form, but I don't think his works are in any way amateurish as Denk seems to suggest. He went beyond standard forms and practices. His music is often quite challenging to listeners and performers, this could be why Denk feels it often falls flat, but I disagree its due to any issues of Ives having less compositional abilities. I think what he refers to is a style issue more than a skills issue.


My wife and I attended the Ojai Festival last month. Denk was one of the guest artists. One of the things that was great about the festival is that all of the artists were very assessable. I got him to autograph a CD of him performing the Ives. I also attended a panel discussion about Ives he participated in. I got the impression that his thoughts about Ives was the exact opposite.


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## tdc

arpeggio said:


> My wife and I attended the Ojai Festival last month. Denk was one of the guest artists. One of the things that was great about the festival is that all of the artists were very assessable. I got him to autograph a CD of him performing the Ives. I also attended a panel discussion about Ives he participated in. I got the impression that his thoughts about Ives was the exact opposite.


I realize Denk thinks very highly about Ives as a composer, that is not in question...But ultimately in that article I was referring to he suggests Ives was great _despite being slightly amateurish_ in his compositional abilities and that compared to other early 20th century Piano Sonatas the Concord isn't as "well-crafted". Those are the points I disagree with, and Denk does not offer up any evidence of it in the article other than to say that at times Ives was unsure about notation and that his music is difficult to perform. In other words he does not give any examples of anything in the actual music that is less well-crafted.

Being "unsure of notation" is not something that qualifies someone as an amateur, the rhythmic qualities of certain styles of music are in fact impossible to notate in a precise manner. Bartok encountered this same issue when trying to notate certain folk music.


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## arpeggio

I don't know. I have not read the article. All I know is that I attended a panel discussion with Denk last month where they were discussing the music of Ives. Maybe I heard wrong and he actually made remarks that Ives was poorly crafted music.


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## tdc

arpeggio said:


> I don't know. I have not read the article. All I know is that I attended a panel discussion with Denk last month where they were discussing the music of Ives. Maybe I heard wrong and he actually made remarks that Ives was poorly crafted music.


No, I think its maybe more just an issue of semantics here. Denk was not being overly harsh on Ives, and actually for the most part I agree with that article and thought Denk made a lot of really insightful points about Ives' music.


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## Avey

I have heard a number of you say that M.T. Thomas' interpretation of *Ives* is the best. Thus, I recently picked up MTT's recordings of Ives' symphonies (I already have his recordings of other songs and orchestral pieces).

I am curious: To those who find themselves partial to MTT, why do you prefer his versions? I ask because I noticed some interesting tidbits.

Particularly, re the Fourth Symphony -- recording with CSO -- I enjoyed the piece, but the final movement: Are the bells, which are paired with the oboe and clarinet, implying "Nearer My God to Thee," which the chorus eventually follows with -- _are these bells and winds meant to be played silently or loudly?_ For comparison, I am use to the Mehta recording -- with the CSO -- where the bells and winds are in the foreground -- that melody pierces the listener, with just as much power as the simple, yet profound tune maintained in *Ives'* subconscious. The moment is something you cannot pass, and something he could not forget.

I listened to MTT's version three times -- just over this day -- and the ending is abnormal to me, or at least, strange and new. I wonder how you interpret this.


----------



## tdc

Avey said:


> I have heard a number of you say that M.T. Thomas' interpretation of *Ives* is the best. Thus, I recently picked up MTT's recordings of Ives' symphonies (I already have his recordings of other songs and orchestral pieces).
> 
> I am curious: To those who find themselves partial to MTT, why do you prefer his versions? I ask because I noticed some interesting tidbits.
> 
> Particularly, re the Fourth Symphony -- recording with CSO -- I enjoyed the piece, but the final movement: Are the bells, which are paired with the oboe and clarinet, implying "Nearer My God to Thee," which the chorus eventually eventually follows with -- _are these bells and winds meant to be played silently or loudly?_ For comparison, I am use to the Mehta recording -- with the CSO -- where the bells and winds are in the foreground -- that melody pierces the listener, with just as much power as the simple, yet profound tune maintained in *Ives'* subconscious.
> 
> I listened to MTT's version three times -- just over this day -- and the ending is abnormal to me, or at least, strange and new. I wonder how you interpret this.


Interesting observation, I know MTT seems quite popular here amongst the Ives enthusiasts, but after purchasing a recording of some of the orchestral works he did I found myself feeling as though something didn't quite click with me there. I personally seem to prefer Bernstein, Dohnanyi and Mehta.

I really love Platonov's take on the 1st symphony here - particularly the last movement.


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## Vaneyes

I don't care for Ives symphonies, so I don't have a dog in this fight. But after decades of trying to love MTT recordings, I've come away with just three...all in an accompanying role for violin, piano, cello concerti. 

I've found his symphonies of whomever usually get bogged down in detail, and sometimes offer lines I'm not convinced by. Normally, I've found sound isn't an issue, but something's bound to "get by" in a lengthy career. Just sayin'.:tiphat:


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## Kilgore Trout

Avey said:


> For comparison, I am use to the Mehta recording -- with the CSO --


What disc is that ?


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## ptr

I've never wormed that much to MTT's Ives (or Mahler), there is something with his interpretations that makes me think he is trying to hard, like he only see the tree's (notes) and not the forest (music)... And like was said previously, the sound on the Sony/CBS recordings are slightly on the processed side!

I'll take Stokowski in Ives over any one else, cuts and idiosyncrasies accounted for, in my ringing ears, the only one who has come close of modern conductors I have heard have been Peter Eötvös live (unfortunately not committed to disc).

/ptr


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## Crudblud

I like Christoph von Dohnányi in Ives' 4th, certainly much better than the Tilson Thomas. To me it flows so much better, with keener pacing and "right" tempi, but of course that's just my gut feeling on the matter.


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## starthrower

Kilgore Trout said:


> What disc is that ?


I ask the same question. I've not heard of Mehta recording the 4th.


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## tdc

starthrower said:


> I ask the same question. I've not heard of Mehta recording the 4th.


I think Avey was referring to the Dohnanyi version that is on the same set as the Mehta 1st and 2nd, I just realized this and I made the same mistake - I was thinking the Dohnanyi version of the 4th was actually Mehta. For the record the Dohnanyi 4th is also my preferred interpretation.


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## starthrower

That 2 disc Decca CD is a nice set. I think I'm going to pick it up.


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## JACE

Avey said:


> I have heard a number of you say that M.T. Thomas' interpretation of *Ives* is the best. Thus, I recently picked up MTT's recordings of Ives' symphonies (I already have his recordings of other songs and orchestral pieces).
> 
> I am curious: To those who find themselves partial to MTT, why do you prefer his versions? I ask because I noticed some interesting tidbits.
> 
> Particularly, re the Fourth Symphony -- recording with CSO -- I enjoyed the piece, but the final movement: Are the bells, which are paired with the oboe and clarinet, implying "Nearer My God to Thee," which the chorus eventually follows with -- _are these bells and winds meant to be played silently or loudly?_ For comparison, I am use to the Mehta recording -- with the CSO -- where the bells and winds are in the foreground -- that melody pierces the listener, with just as much power as the simple, yet profound tune maintained in *Ives'* subconscious. The moment is something you cannot pass, and something he could not forget.
> 
> I listened to MTT's version three times -- just over this day -- and the ending is abnormal to me, or at least, strange and new. I wonder how you interpret this.


Avey, I'm not familiar with Mehta's recording of the Fourth (I didn't even know he'd made one), so I can't compare.

I like MTT's recordings because they just "work" best for me. No reason beyond that. I'm not familiar with the scores, so I can't make any claims regarding their fidelity to the scores. They just sound most convincing to me _musically_. 

I completely understand that others may prefer other conductor's versions more. I would be surprised if that wasn't the case. I suppose it all comes down to preferences in matters of interpretation.


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## Avey

starthrower said:


> I ask the same question. I've not heard of Mehta recording the 4th.


Yes, as mentioned, I made a mistake. This is the Decca set of Ives' symphonies and two orchestral sets. Dohnanyi and the Cleveland Orchestra is on the Fourth there.

Regardless, my original commentary still stands.


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## JACE

Avey said:


> Yes, as mentioned, I made a mistake. This is the Decca set of Ives' symphonies and two orchestral sets. Dohnanyi and the Cleveland Orchestra is on the Fourth there.
> 
> Regardless, my original commentary still stands.


I think the von Dohnányi recording is excellent.

I just like MTT's more.


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## aajj

If I have one must-have Ives recording, it's Bernstein and NYP on DG from 1990. Contains tremendous performances of the 2nd Symphony and a wide range of short pieces, from Tone Roads No. 1 to Halloween to Central Park in the Dark to The Unanswered Question. Gong on the Hook & Ladder. Hymn for String Orchestra. On it goes. Excellent liner notes by Bernstein on the symphony. This disc was my introduction to Ives and I never quite recovered!


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## hpowders

I wish Bernstein would have recorded a performance of the Ives Concord Sonata. He was fine enough of a pianist to do it.


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## Avey

hpowders said:


> I wish Bernstein would have recorded a performance of the Ives Concord Sonata. He was fine enough of a pianist to do it.


Hmm. Well, coming from Bernstein, I don't know how to take this.


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## aajj

His Piano Trio is pure Ives, which is to say like nothing else. I first heard it a couple of years ago (Nieuw Amsterdam Trio) and each time I return to it I am blown away.


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## Avey

Found this gem at a used record store recently.








_Housatonic at Stockbridge_ and _Things are Fathers Loved_ - just perfect.

Even when I feel like I had a grasp on Ives, I find new treasures. Often, I am reminded that he wrote nearly 200 songs. Two hundred diverse, novel songs.

In fact, I have never been a huge fan of lieder, song, or piano and voice. Maybe it's the language barrier though, because Ives songs attract me in ways no other composer's has. Though, admittedly, I am daunted by the vast catalogue -- like, where to go from one song to the next?!


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## JACE

Avey said:


> Found this gem at a used record store recently.
> View attachment 61121
> 
> 
> _Housatonic at Stockbridge_ and _Things are Fathers Loved_ - just perfect.
> 
> Even when I feel like I had a grasp on Ives, I find new treasures. Often, I am reminded that he wrote nearly 200 songs. Two hundred diverse, novel songs.
> 
> In fact, I have never been a huge fan of lieder, song, or piano and voice. Maybe it's the language barrier though, because Ives songs attract me in ways no other composer's has. Though, admittedly, I am daunted by the vast catalogue -- like, where to go from one song to the next?!


That's one of my favorite CDs. 

If you'd like to continue exploring Ives' songs, you might want to investigate these next:









Complete Songs of Charles Ives, Vol. 3









Complete Songs of Charles Ives, Vol. 4


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## aajj

Avey said:


> Found this gem at a used record store recently.
> View attachment 61121
> 
> 
> _Housatonic at Stockbridge_ and _Things are Fathers Loved_ - just perfect.
> 
> Even when I feel like I had a grasp on Ives, I find new treasures. Often, I am reminded that he wrote nearly 200 songs. Two hundred diverse, novel songs.
> 
> In fact, I have never been a huge fan of lieder, song, or piano and voice. Maybe it's the language barrier though, because Ives songs attract me in ways no other composer's has. Though, admittedly, I am daunted by the vast catalogue -- like, where to go from one song to the next?!


I don't own this CD but I've heard it, first time I heard his songs, and I too was struck by the astonishing diversity. They run the gamut of moods. He can be playful or deadly serious but always full of surprises. Executing them could not have been as easy as these two made it seem.


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## Lunasong

I attended a performance of _The Unanswered Question_ today. It was quite thought-provoking.


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## Avey

Lunasong said:


> It was quite thought-provoking.


I was about to respond, "Good, Ives would appreciate that."

Then I figured he would probably have some other witty quip that is actually opposite of my commending.

Also, great piece. The sustained clarinet (and oboe/flute) on the last variation -- truly, profound stuff.


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## Blancrocher

In case anyone is interested in reading Ives' very extensive program notes for the Concord Sonata (entitled "Essays Before a Sonata"), there's a free version here:

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/3673/3673-h/3673-h.htm


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## Ukko

Blancrocher said:


> In case anyone is interested in reading Ives' very extensive program notes for the Concord Sonata (entitled "Essays Before a Sonata"), there's a free version here:
> 
> http://www.gutenberg.org/files/3673/3673-h/3673-h.htm


I've read extracts; they are interesting, sometimes amusing, and quite unnecessary for getting into the music. That only needs thoughtless listening.


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## chalkpie

hpowders said:


> The Ives' Fourth is one of the few Ives' works that I can't seem to get into. Love just about everything else. Therefore I will ignore that excerpt.




What??!!

You don't even dig the fugue? The finale is a top 10 favourite Ives composition for me. Don't give up on this piece!!


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## hpowders

chalkpie said:


> What??!!
> 
> You don't even dig the fugue? The finale is a top 10 favourite Ives composition for me. Don't give up on this piece!!


Okay. I will listen again. Maybe it's the lousy performance with Litton/Dallas.


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## hpowders

chalkpie said:


> What??!!
> 
> You don't even dig the fugue? The finale is a top 10 favourite Ives composition for me. Don't give up on this piece!!


I re-listened to the symphony. Yes the fugue is great Ives, but what's it doing there? It sounds like it should be part of Symphony No. 3.


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## chalkpie

hpowders said:


> I re-listened to the symphony. Yes the fugue is great Ives, but what's it doing there? It sounds like it should be part of Symphony No. 3.


Here is what Michel Tilson Thomas says about Ives 4. He is one of the great Ives champions and his insight into the piece is brilliant to say the least. Pardon the length, but its a pretty deep piece and there is plenty to talk about. I think you'll begin to understand the "why" and even "how" after reading this. Enjoy!

MTT:

_"The Fourth is meant to answer a question. And the question is, "What is the meaning of existence?" Right at the front of the piece there is a bold and craggy theme in the double basses and the piano, quite aggressive, which is the most lengthy bit of original musical material in the symphony; and this question thunders out very defiantly--"What is the meaning of existence?" Or perhaps, as Whitman or Ruggles or even Ives himself might have said, "What the hell is all of this supposed to mean, anyway?" And then comes a series of answers.

In the first movement, just after the main theme is introduced, you have a group which Ives called the 'Star of Bethlehem.' ...And this is a group of musicians, violins and harps who are meant to play someplace suspended above the stage. They play the first hymn tune in the piece, "Nearer, My God, to Thee," which is, as you probably know, the hymn tune that the musicians on the Titanic were playing when they went down. A hymn of great significance because of its words: "Nearer my God to Thee, nearer, nearer to Thee, still all my soul shall be, nearer to my God to Thee." It's almost a mantra-like repetition of the Transcendentalist's ideal, to be nearer, to be at one with God...

The second movement offers another answer to the meaning of existence. "Well, it is all things as they appear to be." The second movement is saying that this is Maya, the material world. It is also the movement that Ives called a comedy, in the sense that some Hawthorne pieces, grotesque crowd-scene pieces, were identified as being comedy pieces. And it makes reference to everything that's happening in America, particularly the onslaught of mechanization, the noisy aspect of modern civilization. ...It's a parody of the hustle and bustle and overkill of noise in modern society, and a parody of the sort of music that's played at ladies' teas, when they have pink lemonade and listen to salon music. The salon music is made out of a hymn tune called "Beulah Land;" it's a very Mahler-like shape, but preposterously harmonized and so over the top. Instruments at the back of the orchestra, which Ives calls shadow instruments, continue to play in their odd meandering way, having nothing to do with the shape of the hymn tune in the foreground. It's just a big stewpot of everything in musical society at that time. ...The attitude [Ives] has toward all of this music is, well, it's just part of the human comedy. Sometimes it's rough, sometimes it's sentimental, sometimes it's mysterious, but it's all just something that's making a great to-do over nothing. ...Then in a moment, it's all blown away. It's as if the wind comes through and there's nothing left but a few violas desperately trying to play some rapid sixteenth notes that tail off to nothing....

The third movement takes up the answer of Congregationalism...[Ives] felt that there were important benefits to be obtained by going to an event where other people met together for the purposes of worship and contemplation ...The third movement is based on a hymn tune called "From Greenland's Icy Mountains." It is a fugue, and it is meant to go at a rather vigorous pace....

[In the fourth movement] Ives introduces a new group--the percussion ensemble, which represents the ticking of the universal clock. I have only recently had the chance to perform this piece with a truly subterranean percussion ensemble in San Francisco. ...It makes a tremendous difference. It is so remarkable that this man imagined these things and knew exactly what he was talking about. When you read the instructions in the score which say a "subterranean percussion ensemble," it sounds totally absurd. But if you actually do it, set it up so they can play in a space that would normally be given over to the pit beneath the stage, it sounds fantastic. So this ensemble begins playing this odd, rhythmic pattern which suggests the ticking of the universal clock. The theme is the same, the question of human existence. And this time the answer is a sort of procession, a mournful procession, the tune of which is one of Ives' most masterful combinations of several phrases from several different sources, melded together. It is an expressive and sad melody. And what an ensemble it is--the violins of the Star of Bethlehem group play along with one solo violin on stage and gradually more violins join in. ..."Nearer, My God to Thee" is brought in, with dark and tragic harmonization over a bass line which is at first that of processional, and then becomes increasingly more desperate, lashing and flailing away at these harmonic turns. The large forces of the orchestra--brass, winds, and percussion--come in, bringing various phrases to a glittering, obliterating climax, and then they disappear-one of Ives' favorite effects. This huge sound suddenly clears, and leaves the sound of the violin and quarter tone pianos far off in the distance playing a beautiful quarter tone harmonization of "Nearer, My God, to Thee."

It's these kinds of contrasts which shape the movement, leading to the biggest of climaxes where "Nearer, My God, to Thee" in the massed low brass is pitted against the swirling original combination hymn tune in the upper orchestra. And just at the moment when the happy ending should occur, it turns round this corner and into an absolutely Calvary-like passage, where sounds occur like souls being borne down through great travail by the immense power of the orchestra. ...It's typical for Ives to represent this most exalted moment of spiritual search in ever more dissonant and blaring sound. ...This to me has always suggested the Mount Sinai aspect of spiritual revelation. Man searches and searches as he gets too close to the divine it is more than he can bear, the sounds and the harmonies are just too much. This is exactly what happens in Ives' Fourth Symphony. It builds to such a point of intensity that it's as if we can bear no more, and it sweeps away. We have to turn away and a few little tendrils of singed nerve endings then lead to the beginnings of the long, luminous coda. The choir brings back, wordlessly, the last phrase of "Nearer, My God, to Thee"--"Still all my songs shall be nearer, my God, to Thee."...As the chorus reaches its last phrase we come to the raison d'être for this Symphony. In the original hymn tune, "Nearer, My God, to Thee," the chorus sang the raised seventh degree of the scale-C sharp. But the very last time Ives uses the tune in the symphony, he lowers the seventh degree to the scale of C natural. So now "Nearer to Thee" is a modal cadence rather than a diatonic cadence. By doing that, he takes this hymn from a small Congregational church in New England and changes it into concord with ancient music, with Asian music, with all the musical traditions of the world. And then, with all of this layering of tunes going on, the procession slowly retreats. It's as if all of the people on earth are singing, and then the planet itself, with all of its inhabitants singing, passes further away on its orbit, out of our view....

This, to me, is what is so extraordinary in Ives imagination: all the aspects of this piece--the Star of Bethlehem; the percussion ensembles; the quarter tones; the mixed wind ensembles playing in different meters and different rhythms; the different spatial representations of music within the orchestra; the incredible use of dynamics to suggest the shifting of the winds and changes of psychological concentration; the extraordinary complexity of the layering, the textures; the complex reharmonization of familiar tunes in ever new ways; the whole vastness of the expression. And the whole symphony is really about one thing, which is "Nearer, My God, to Thee."...To search for this closeness to God, and in searching for it discover that one's expression of it changes from being a comfortable little thing you know at home to something that does indeed connect with the great universal search of mankind. And Ives is able to focus all this simply by changing one note of the cadence of this familiar tune...."_


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## hpowders

Okay, but it just doesn't "hit me" like symphonies 2 and 3.

Otherwise, I'm not really a bad person.


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## Ukko

My first time reading the MTT essay. I have never warmed to the 4th symphony, and now I understand why: the presentation has to use Ives' staging directions, and the hearer probably has to 'be there', not listening to a recording.

[note to _bigshot_: Is there a way around the 'be there' problem? (not that I could afford it)]


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## hpowders

Takes quite a few conductors to pull it off, no?


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## Polyphemus

All praise to MTT one of the most erudite conductors around. A superb Mahlerian (underrated). A quite brilliant communicator in his T V documentaries. The people of San Fransisco are lucky indeed.


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## hpowders

Yeah. Him and earthquakes.


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## tdc

Ukko said:


> My first time reading the MTT essay. I have never warmed to the 4th symphony, and now I understand why: the presentation has to use Ives' staging directions, and the hearer probably has to 'be there', not listening to a recording.
> 
> [note to _bigshot_: Is there a way around the 'be there' problem? (not that I could afford it)]


No, you probably just don't enjoy the symphony. I have never been to a performance and consider it one of Ives greatest works, and one of my favorite symphonies by any composer.

That said the 4th is clearly nothing like the first 3 symphonies, so it is not surprising that some here enjoy the earlier symphonic works but not the 4th.

The first 3 show that Ives could write masterpieces in a more conventional manner, the 4th is Ives really just being Ives, shaking off the shackles of convention etc.


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## Polyphemus

hpowders said:


> Yeah. Him and earthquakes.


Hast thy pithiness been cast aside for, dare I say it, a hint of jealousy that your city can not lay claim to the maestro. :lol: :lol: :tiphat:


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## hpowders

Polyphemus said:


> Hast thy pithiness been cast aside for, dare I say it, a hint of jealousy that your city can not lay claim to the maestro. :lol: :lol: :tiphat:


He doesn't do any guest conductor appearances from what I see. IMHO, he is a second-rate Leonard Bernstein, which isn't really a bad thing, relatively speaking.


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## Avey

Let me explain...

Recently, as in the past few months, I was at a (Seattle) Mariners game, in (...)Seattle, and I was attending the baseball game alone. Initially, I hoped others were joining me, but distance and obligations got in the way. Regardless, the point being, I attended this game alone, on a whim really.

Typically, I travel everywhere -- largely by bike, but also car, bus, whatever -- with sound in my head. Yes I am one of those _millenials_, if you will, that is always plugged in. But I am not listening to pop. I am not listening to podcasts (though I do enjoy a select few occasionally). I am listening to *THIS* music, the stuff we all adore, i.e., stuff that _affects_ we (here) in the core.

So, at this game, I was listening to music. An amazing experience, being lone at a baseball game, partaking in the team you follow, the game you appreciate, and the sounds you most cohere to. The latter being the operative point. For the entire game, I was listening to *Charles Ives*. And while I could relate every inning, I will just remark on the more substantial portion of his joining me, partaking in this lovely sport, or some say, (_cliche_) _America's Game_. Whatever, I am beyond that label.

So, my point being (as I say that a second time), I was listening to *The Holidays Symphony* for maybe, well, the third time. Honestly, I was not so familiar as to expect and anticipate certain points or moments. The music still felt new. Thus, I was not familiar or thoroughly prepared for its scope. And, really, the feeling I would get.

But as many of you who read here know,* the climactic point in the *Thanksgiving & Forefather's Day* scene, where the chorus comes in, and pronounces that God's *guiding hands* pointed our past forerunners toward *wintry sands*, and not alone, but *in psalm*, to note the least -- that stuff, that material, that lament, *the absolution* -- those moments, without doubt, *bind the very soul.* Or, at least, that music binds mine. This is why I choose to listen and _zone out_ in my own personal soundscape. Not to anything, but to this art, these measures, to *Charles Ives*.

He creates things beyond our immediate passion and emotion. I truly feel inadequate, in a thoroughly cathartic, absolutely honest sort of way, that makes me recognize beauty beyond the banal and everyday. Music that makes me, well, *bond* and manifest something greater, something with purpose, something with heart, something with *LIFE*.

My heart wants to just burst. Or believe...

*JACE has commented on the following section before, and after searching his posts, despite my (truly) thorough attempts, I failed to retrieve such a post. Please do find it!


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## millionrainbows

Avey said:


> He creates things beyond our immediate passion and emotion. I truly feel inadequate, in a thoroughly cathartic, absolutely honest sort of way, that makes me recognize beauty beyond the banal and everyday. Music that makes me, well, *bond* and manifest something greater, something with purpose, something with heart, something with *LIFE*.
> 
> My heart wants to just burst. Or believe...


That's funny...I think of ghosts from the Civil War.


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## millionrainbows

GOOD NEWS FOR MODERN MAN! 







This set contains Ralph Kirkpatrick's recording of the Concord Sonata. It's an important version, as he was the first pianist to premier it. It was only on vinyl until now. As I recall, the recording was excellent: warm, analog, and rich. I just found out about this from the amazon review which lists the content of all 10 discs. Reasonably priced, as well, at $16.99.


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## Five and Dime

Starting to nibble a bit on the Ives' branch: PC#2, Central Park, Unanswered Question

Debating which symphony to get first.


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## starthrower

Five and Dime said:


> Starting to nibble a bit on the Ives' branch: PC#2, Central Park, Unanswered Question
> 
> Debating which symphony to get first.


No.4 is the most radical of the numbered works. And don't pass on the Holidays Symphony. The first symphony was written while Ives was a student, and it's a beauty!


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## Vaneyes

Don't forsake his chamber, better than the symphonies IMO.


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## millionrainbows

Yes. Get the Short Pieces cond. by Gunther Schuller, not listed on cover, but with Bernstein and the Second. Orpheus does the short pieces well, too. I'm still waiting for the Columbia Masterworks stuff with Zukovsky/Kalish. They did a Folkways, but it's not as good. Tilson-Thomas/Boston SO is the best Three Places. Get this one:








Also, get the recordings he made, where he's singing. That really gives you an idea of what a kook he was. No offense, I love him dearly.


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## Avey

five and dime said:


> starting to nibble a bit on the ives' branch: Pc#2, central park, unanswered question
> 
> *debating which symphony to get first.*


Well, I think it is only appropriate:

ALL OF THEM AT ONCE AT THE SAME TIME MIXING AND MUSIC


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## Five and Dime

Picked up the new release of Symphonies 1 and 2 on Chandos, Melbourne, Davis. So far so good.

Also downloaded the Hahn/Lisitsa Violin Sonatas, but haven't heard them yet. 

Later, I'll give my Three Orchestral Sets (Naxos, Malmo, Sinclair) another listen.

Let's call it Ives' day!


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## Five and Dime

I get the impression from listening to Ives and from what I've read that Ives wrote whatever music he felt like writing, with essentially no consideration for what others might think. 

Unlike, say, Gershwin, who went to Europe and tried to fit in with crowd there. But in so doing lost some connection to his own unique voice, to the detriment of his musical output.

I suspect very few composers enjoyed Ives' devil-may-care attitude and freedom.


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## millionrainbows

More good news: This is back in print on CD.


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## Pugg

millionrainbows said:


> More good news: This is back in print on CD.


Good to know, thanks .


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## Xenakiboy

I love Ives music.
Central Park in the dark 
Symphony no 2
Concord Sonata 
114 Songs 
Plus The Universe Symphony (even though it was incomplete), is up there with Scriabin's Mysterium and Sorabji's Jami Symphony! 

Are all amazing compositions!!


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## millionrainbows

Unfortunately, the Kirkpatrick/Ives might be a CD-R, although Amazon lists it as a CD. Arkiv, known for CD-R reissues, is one of the sellers; that was my clue.

Still, it is available as a hard-copy in the box set.


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## Scopitone

Listening to the *2nd Symphony (Bernstein) *for the first time. The first movement had got chills running up and down my back - especially the cellos about 4 min in. I had to start it over and listen again before proceeding to the second movement.

I am half focused and half reading this thread. Suddenly in the 4th movement, I hear strains of "America the Beautiful". Just a few notes. But it's so unexpected and so sublimely beautiful that my eyes teared up.

More chills in the fifth movement, as the horns come in.

What a piece of music this is!

ETA: is that _The Marsellaise_ in the fifth movement? I must be mishearing it. That's an odd addition.


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## millionrainbows

Yes, the Second is real good. Also, I echo starthrower's recommendation of the Symphony: Holidays.

If you are really into Ives, get "Ives plays Ives," which is some acetate discs he recorded. He sings on it, too, which is a good insight into him.


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## Larkenfield

I recently heard one of the Hába quarter-tone piano sonatas, and it was an amazing experience. Can be heard online.

I believe the source of Charles Ives genius was that he simply loved the clash of dissonant harmonies, because he came across them naturally in life, such as two marching bands clashing in a parade. He didn't have to strive to invent anything when he was noticing certain dissonances taking place around him. His The Unanswered Question is fantastic.


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## millionrainbows

I noticed that Sony has released the String Quartets by the Juilliard Quartet, with the original cover. It was previously available on Newton. I hope this one is mastered and edited better. I have it on order, and will report on the quality.


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## hpowders

millionrainbows said:


> Yes, the Second is real good. Also, I echo starthrower's recommendation of the Symphony: Holidays.
> 
> If you are really into Ives, get "Ives plays Ives," which is some acetate discs he recorded. He sings on it, too, which is a good insight into him.


Looks like a mod on duty just waiting to pounce on some hapless poster writing something in violation of the ToS.


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## millionrainbows

hpowders said:


> Looks like a mod on duty just waiting to pounce on some hapless poster writing something in violation of the ToS.


You may not be too far off base: Ives played the organ. :lol:


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## millionrainbows

For any completist, which I may attempt, there is a plethora of new and old recordings of the Concord Sonata; with Sonata No. 1 running a close second.

There is enough out there to devote a comparison thread to (hint, hint).


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## hpowders

millionrainbows said:


> For any completist, which I may attempt, there is a plethora of new and old recordings of the Concord Sonata; with Sonata No. 1 running a close second.
> 
> There is enough out there to devote a comparison thread to (hint, hint).


The best I've ever heard is the performance by Easley Blackwood. Holds the line from first note to last. An amazing performance.


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## KenOC

Many seem to think that Ives was simply an insurance salesman. In fact, he headed up the insurance agency Ives & Co., which later became Ives & Myrick. An actuary as well as insurance executive, he developed new insurance-based approaches to help wealthy people minimize taxes and pass on more of their wealth to their heirs. These became the basis for what is now called estate planning. His book _Life Insurance with Relation to Inheritance Tax_ was published in 1918 and cemented his leading place in the industry.


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## Janspe

I sometimes forget Ives completely which drives me insane because I really, _really_ love his music. I just don't naturally end up listening to his music for some reason!

Listening to the 4th sonata for piano and violin (Children's Day at the Camp Meeting) has made me fall in love with his music all over again. The four sonatas for this particular duo are of particular importance in Ives' oeuvre, and they are an important addition to the genre overall.

Up next: the 2nd piano sonata...


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## Uxbal

Janspe said:


> I sometimes forget Ives completely which drives me insane because I really, _really_ love his music. I just don't naturally end up listening to his music for some reason!


Ives is great but my 'default' composers are either Bach or Kurtag. I must often force myself to listen to something else.


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## flamencosketches

Well, I think I'm beginning to enjoy the music of Charles Ives. I'm finally listening to the 2nd symphony for the first time, the Bernstein/NYP DG recording. This is not what I expected. Very warm and pastoral, like a summer night by the lake. I don't know how he went from writing symphonies like this to something like Central Park in the Dark, but I'll take it. An oddball composer for sure, but definitely a revolutionary.

I'm curious of where to go next with Ives. I've heard a few of his "cowboy songs", and really didn't enjoy them; they smacked of inauthenticity. I still have yet to hear some of the big pieces like the string quartets or the "Concord" sonata. I reckon one or the other is next. 

Has anyone else been listening to Ives lately? What are some of your favorite pieces, your favorite performers?


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## starthrower

Try the Holidays Symphony CD by Tilson Thomas. I particularly like the Thanksgiving and Forefather's Day piece. It also includes the original and revised versions of The Unanswered Question.


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## flamencosketches

starthrower said:


> Try the Holidays Symphony CD by Tilson Thomas. I particularly like the Thanksgiving and Forefather's Day piece. It also includes the original and revised versions of The Unanswered Question.


Noted. I think that's the Ives CD I'm always seeing at a local record store, it's definitely one of the Tilson Thomas/Ives CDs on CBS. I'll check it out!


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## starthrower

I like that one and the T.T. disc with symphonies 1&4. I have that Bernstein DG disc too.


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## calvinpv

flamencosketches said:


> I'm curious of where to go next with Ives. I've heard a few of his "cowboy songs", and really didn't enjoy them; they smacked of inauthenticity. I still have yet to hear some of the big pieces like the string quartets or the "Concord" sonata. I reckon one or the other is next.
> 
> Has anyone else been listening to Ives lately? What are some of your favorite pieces, your favorite performers?


I have only listened to his piano sonatas and a couple of songs that I can't remember, so I'd also be curious for recommendations beyond what I've heard.

I don't remember the first sonata too well, as I heard it a long time ago, but I would definitely recommend the second sonata. It reminds me a lot of Rzewski's piano works such as _North American Ballads_, written 70 years later: simple country folk tunes clothed in walls of dissonances (and I mean "walls": there are tone clusters up and down the sheet music). I don't know if you know Rzewski, but I find the similarities quite striking.

I don't know if this is a definitive recording, but this is the one I have:


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## millionrainbows

flamencosketches said:


> I've heard a few of his "cowboy songs", and really didn't enjoy them; they smacked of inauthenticity.


I'm not familiar with those. You must have Ives mixed-up with some other composer.


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## flamencosketches

millionrainbows said:


> I'm not familiar with those. You must have Ives mixed-up with some other composer.







This may be the only one, actually. Where the score says "(from Cowboy Songs)" that may be in reference to a collection by the poet. In any case, I hate this song. :lol:


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## millionrainbows

flamencosketches said:


> This may be the only one, actually. Where the score says "(from Cowboy Songs)" that may be in reference to a collection by the poet. In any case, I hate this song. :lol:


Charlie Rutlage (1921) is not one of my favorites either. 
There are so many other good ones, though: Like A Sick Eagle (1920), The Cage (1906), Thoreau (1915), Afterglow (1919), etc.

My favorite collection of Ives' songs is the Albany series, on 4 CDs.


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## starthrower

flamencosketches said:


> Noted. I think that's the Ives CD I'm always seeing at a local record store, it's definitely one of the Tilson Thomas/Ives CDs on CBS. I'll check it out!












Listening this morning. Some great music here. This may be the best of the T.T. Ives CDs. The way Ives weaves popular songs and nationalistic fare into his modern compositions is a blast to listen to on this CD.


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## millionrainbows

User in F minor said:


> This is something that I wonder about. Is it possible for a non-yankee to _really_ get Ives' music? All of the musical tradition that he uses as building blocks is unfamiliar to me. I've gotten to know some of the songs he used and I've read about camp meetings on Wikipedia and stuff, but the doubt remains.
> 
> Also, is that musical tradition still around? If you pick a random 16-year-old US kid, how likely is it that (s)he's familiar with, say, "Marching Through Georgia"?


Hmm...I think it might work "backwards" too. I was born long after those songs were written. After you've worked backwards, and are familiar with those old songs, you can appreciate what Ives was doing much more. Watching Ken Burns' The Civil War might help, too. :lol:

In this way, being an astute listener to Ives requires familiarizing oneself with America's musical heritage.


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## starthrower

Probably not any different if you asked a 16 year old Russian kid to identify the tunes in Petrushka.


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## millionrainbows

The two discs by the Seattle Symphony are excellent. This Fourth Symphony is probably my mainstay from here out. In the notes it describes the Fourth as being like a piano concerto, which gave me food for thought.


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## millionrainbows

starthrower said:


> Probably not any different if you asked a 16 year old Russian kid to identify the tunes in Petrushka.


I've always wanted to know the German tunes that Beethoven used in his work. I think this would make a good CD.


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## starthrower

millionrainbows said:


> The two discs by the Seattle Symphony are excellent. This Fourth Symphony is probably my mainstay from here out. In the notes it describes the Fourth as being like a piano concerto, which gave me food for thought.


I haven't seen those before. I'm not familiar with Morlot. Beautiful covers on those too.


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## tdc

Well I happen to enjoy the Charles Rutlage song. And for that matter pretty much everything Ives composed, a brilliant musical mind.

"Smacks of inauthenticity?" Oh please. I don't listen to any classical composers for 'authentic' cowboy songs.


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## flamencosketches

tdc said:


> Well I happen to enjoy the Charles Rutlage song. And for that matter pretty much everything Ives composed, a brilliant musical mind.
> 
> "Smacks of inauthenticity?" Oh please. I don't listen to any classical composers for 'authentic' cowboy songs.


And yet here is a classical composer who attempts to write one. That song put me off Ives for a long while. :lol:


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## tdc

flamencosketches said:


> And yet here is a classical composer who attempts to write one. That song put me off Ives for a long while. :lol:


No, I think you misunderstand. He was composing a piece with that as his inspiration. You can listen to any classical composer that has incorporated folk elements into their music, Haydn, Bartok or whomever, and the end result will inevitably be modified and therefore not authentic. For example when you listen to Bartok's Romanian Folk Dances, do you think you are actually listening to authentic Romanian folk dances? No.


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## flamencosketches

tdc said:


> No, I think you misunderstand. He was composing a piece with that as his inspiration. You can listen to any classical composer that has incorporated folk elements into their music, Haydn, Bartok or whomever, and the end result will inevitably be modified and therefore not authentic. For example when you listen to Bartok's Romanian Folk Dances, do you think you are actually listening to authentic Romanian folk dances? No.


I think my aversion is because, as an American, I am closer to the source material than I am to, say, Romanian folk dances. If I were a 90-year-old Romanian, maybe I would dislike that Bartók piece due to its cheapening and "inauthentic" use of music that I know and love, whereas an American listener to Bartók might praise him for his use of "raw" folk music. Why listen to "Charlie Rutlage" when I can just listen to Marty Robbins? Your experience, of course, may vary.


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## tdc

flamencosketches said:


> I think my aversion is because, as an American, I am closer to the source material than I am to, say, Romanian folk dances. If I were a 90-year-old Romanian, maybe I would dislike that Bartók piece due to its cheapening and "inauthentic" use of music that I know and love, whereas an American listener to Bartók might praise him for his use of "raw" folk music. Why listen to "Charlie Rutlage" when I can just listen to Marty Robbins? Your experience, of course, may vary.


I'm an American too, and I find Ives use of source material in his music touching, it is in fact a large part of why I enjoy his music so much. I don't find anything cheap or inauthentic about his music relative to other composers. You discussing his music as though it is some kind of personal insult to you on his composer guestbook, I think is in poor taste. You are expecting something closer to Marty Robbins when you listen to Charles Ives, simply because the song title has the word 'cowboy' in it? I'm sorry that just strikes me as ridiculous.

How about Ravel's 'blues' movement in his violin sonata. It doesn't even sound anything like Willie Dixon!


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## flamencosketches

tdc said:


> I'm an American too, and I find Ives use of source material in his music touching, it is in fact a large part of why I enjoy his music so much. I don't find anything cheap or inauthentic about his music relative to other composers. You discussing his music as though it is some kind of personal insult to you on his composer guestbook, I think is in poor taste. You are expecting something closer to Marty Robbins when you listen to Charles Ives, simply because the song title has the word 'cowboy' in it? I'm sorry that just strikes me as ridiculous.
> 
> How about Ravel's 'blues' movement in his violin sonata. It doesn't even sound anything like Willie Dixon!


Well, I'm sorry I have offended you so. I don't know what else you want from me. These are my first impression opinions, and to clarify, I am not "discussing his music as though it is a personal insult to me", I was just explaining to you why I didn't like one of his two-minute songs, after you pressed me about it. Perhaps you will delight in the fact that the reason that I bumped this thread is because I have looked beyond my initial prejudice and started enjoying Ives' music more and more.


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## millionrainbows

I am surprised and pleased at this 2-CD recording of Ives' piano music by Philip Mead, an Englishman. He conveys meaning in everything he plays here. I don't care for the cover art, but the music is consistently good, and one of the better Ives piano CDs I have heard. Highly recommended.

View attachment 125213


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## millionrainbows

View attachment 126268
Here's the Ives.


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## Sid James

*An Ives diary - recent listening*

*Piano Sonata #1* (1901-9)

_"Mr. Ives would come home from a strenuous day in the insurance business, have his meal, and then go the piano and forget all about time until the wee small hours. He would be completely absorbed in his music…[T]heir little girl [stepdaughter, Edith] had learned to adjust. He couldn't take any interruptions because he was listening to what was inside him. He'd play, and the little girl was allowed to sit there underneath the piano and play with her dolls, but she must not make a sound."_
(Christine Loring, personal secretary to the Ives family)*

Listening to *Piano Sonata #1*, its easy to relate to the image of Ives throwing around ideas at the piano. It gives a such a strong sense of ideas in the rough, and it is no surprise that it is a work in progress (five out of a projected seven movements survive). There is such an improvisatory feeling throughout, sometimes its more like jazz than classical.

The work is structured like a suite. Nostalgia and wildness mix on equal terms. The music is at turns contemplative, vigorous or even manic, fragmented, dreamy and wandering. There is often a sense of ebb and flow, bringing to mind watery imagery of Liszt and Debussy. Everything revolves around two pivots, the second and fourth movements, which project dancy vibes. The former is a ragtime which makes me feel like I'm stepping into a saloon in one of those old Western movies.

What functions as the final movement is perhaps the most interesting because it leaves things open. I like this sense of uncertainty. Are the fragmentary piano phrases related to something earlier? Is the piece starting to come together? There is no answer, which probably adds to the enjoyment of this journey. Following the existing pattern, there would be another dance movement followed by the finale.

*in Gayle Sherwood Magee: _Charles Ives Reconsidered_, University of Illinois Press, Urbana, 2008.

*Piano Trio* (1904-7)

In his *Piano Trio*, Ives presents impressions of his university days at Yale. The work is in three movements, with two slow outer movements encasing an energetic one.

The first movement was inspired by the short and serious talk of an old professor, and it appropriately comes across as being moody and ruminative. The second movement relates to the humorous antics of students and again it feels like stepping into a bar, with wild singing and many conversations going on at once. The final movement conveys the atmosphere of Sunday services and is the most conventional of the three. There is a wonderful sense of flow and blending of ideas, even of a vaguely romantic (perhaps Slavic) emotional pull. It ends with the cello quietly singing a hymn tune, "Rock of Ages."

*Selection of songs* (full playlist below)

Ives' dictum that "music doesn't represent life, it is life" is nowhere more strongly apparent than in his *songs*. Even in this small selection, there is such variety - images of nature, snapshots of everyday life, stories of frontier life, prayers, epics, and more.

Whatever their subject matter, be it mundane or spiritual, these songs have a sense of immediacy. Ives' aimed to create something real, he had no time for the conventions of European art song. He obviously thought his songs where important, publishing an extensive edition of them in the early 1920's.

*Variations on "America" for organ* (1891), arranged for brass band by Eric Crees

Ives composed *Variations on "America"* when he was 17, and it hints at the composer he would later become. Ives' adventurous qualities are already present in the quirkiness, energy and conversational qualities of this music. Ives (or his father) submitted the piece to a publisher, but it was rejected. Ironically, this is now one of his most popular works. This one for brass band is one of many arrangements (including the famous one by William Schuman).

The recordings I listened to:

Sonata - Peter Lawson, piano; EMI 2344692





Trio - Glenn Dicterow, violin; Alan Stepansky, cello; Israela Margalit, piano; EMI 2344502













Songs - Marni Nixon, soprano; John McCabe, piano; EMI 2066312 
The Greatest Man 



At the River 



Ann Street 



Christmas Carol 



From 'The Swimmers' 



West London 



Soliloquy 



Evening 



Charlie Rutlage 



Side Show 



The Cage 



Farewell to Land 



General William Booth Enters into Heaven 




Variations - London Symphony Brass/Eric Crees; alto ALC1209


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