# beethoven. 3 and 6



## michael5150 (May 24, 2015)

In my opinion considering beethoven symphony as the subject, beethovens third and sixth are the most perfect in terms of form subject matter and expression. The third is in my opinion slightly inferior to the sixth. I have always found the final movement of the eroica disappointing. It seems as if a division line is set between the first three movements and yhe finale. The free form of variation seems to unbalance the integrity of the structure. This is just my opinion but the finale seems to weaken the first three movements as a symphony is one unit of mass in some respect. The sixth does not include these faults. The brevity of the storm is as much to thank for symphonic balance as it is to thank for making nature dramatic as well as idyllic


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Both are masterpieces and I read that Beethoven's favorite of the first eight symphonies was the Third.


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## arbiter elegantiarum (Jul 5, 2015)

michael5150 said:


> I have always found the final movement of the eroica disappointing. It seems as if a division line is set between the first three movements and yhe finale. The free form of variation seems to unbalance the integrity of the structure. This is just my opinion but the finale seems to weaken the first three movements as a symphony is one unit of mass in some respect.


Try to view the 3rd and 4th movements as a finale of the tripartite structure.


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## Musicophile (May 29, 2015)

Subjectively: I get easily bored by the Pastorale, and never by the Eroica. (In any case, I'll take any "uneven" symphony over the "even numbered" any day, with the notable expection of the ninth).


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## DebussyDoesDallas (Jan 11, 2014)

In the 6th's finale, that gorgeous, sweeping descending climax crowns and resolves the symphony--always satisfying. The symphony's only fault to my taste is that the 2nd movement can drag if not taken at a fast clip. 

Erioca's 4th movement is not my favorite, but I appreciate the element of humor in its main theme and the conception that a heroic figure conquer adversity with a grin as well as scowl.

Right when I think I've heard these pieces enough, I'll enjoy a fresh take.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

It's hard to say much about these pieces except that they are deservedly regarded as masterpieces of the highest order, as with any other Beethoven symphony.

I'll say something personal, then: I have a quasi-religious reverence of the third. It really deals with Big Things (Man! Idea! Death! Logos! Resurrection! Hegel's world historical individual!) and it always gives me shivers. The sixth is very interesting because "Nature" had a lot of meaning to German Idealism and Romanticism and Beethoven's own thinking too, all the way to Wagner of course. I love how the 6th is reactive instead of active, perceptive instead of judgmental. But even Beethoven's "natural state" isn't drifting or just giving different vistas: even nature has a telos. It grows organically and freely, without restraint; but towards a certain point - or cycle - or history consisting of cycles.


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## SARDiver (Jan 6, 2014)

I've always seen the mental imagery of life, morning, and nature, when I hear the 6th. (It's my alarm music on my phone, since that's the takeaway I get from it.) I don't know if I'm interpreting it correctly or not, and I don't care. I see the same things I see in one of my other favorites, Appalachian Spring.

The payoff is always wonderful.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

DebussyDoesDallas said:


> In the 6th's finale, that gorgeous, sweeping descending climax crowns and resolves the symphony--always satisfying. The symphony's only fault to my taste is that the 2nd movement can drag if not taken at a fast clip.


Things moved at a different pace in those days. I'm sure Beethoven could have sat there by that creek for a good long time, just relaxing and enjoying. And if things got too dull, he could have pulled out his cell phone and checked his e-mail.


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## Egyptian (Aug 6, 2015)

Musicophile said:


> Subjectively: I get easily bored by the Pastorale, and never by the Eroica. (In any case, I'll take any "uneven" symphony over the "even numbered" any day, with the notable expection of the ninth).


I also get bored with the Pastorale.. and I'd rather listen to Debussy and onward (chronologically) if I wanted to hear the sounds of nature in music. It is cool as an idea, the sounds of nature mixed in with tonality, but I can never really enjoy it the way I want.

The finale of the 6th, though, is great.

The 7th is a great even numbered symphony


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## Egyptian (Aug 6, 2015)

Xaltotun said:


> It's hard to say much about these pieces except that they are deservedly regarded as masterpieces of the highest order, as with any other Beethoven symphony.
> 
> I'll say something personal, then: I have a quasi-religious reverence of the third. It really deals with Big Things (Man! Idea! Death! Logos! Resurrection! Hegel's world historical individual!) and it always gives me shivers. The sixth is very interesting because "Nature" had a lot of meaning to German Idealism and Romanticism and Beethoven's own thinking too, all the way to Wagner of course. I love how the 6th is reactive instead of active, perceptive instead of judgmental. But even Beethoven's "natural state" isn't drifting or just giving different vistas: even nature has a telos. It grows organically and freely, without restraint; but towards a certain point - or cycle - or history consisting of cycles.


yea "nature has a telos". Cool idea but it doesn't _feel_ that way. I really do love the idea of nature having a telos and Beethoven using the sounds of nature within the boundaries of tonality. 
Super subjective.. interesting how you enjoy the music and I don't even though I totally understand what you mean.


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## Autocrat (Nov 14, 2014)

Egyptian said:


> The 7th is a great even numbered symphony


Oddly enough I agree.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Egyptian said:


> The 7th is a great even numbered symphony.


Am I missing something here?


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## Chipomarc (Jul 18, 2015)

I love the second movement of the 7th symphony.

For the first two decades it would often be inserted into Beethoven`s 2nd symphony in order to help pass off the 2nd to the audience.


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## Chipomarc (Jul 18, 2015)

KenOC said:


> Am I missing something here?


I think he`s referring to the notion that the odd numbered Beethoven symphonies are the great ones, but the 7th does not quite measure up to the odd numbered standards.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Chipomarc said:


> I think he`s referring to the notion that the odd numbered Beethoven symphonies are the great ones, but the 7th does not quite measure up to the odd numbered standards.


That's such a bizarre notion that I can only suspect you're mistaken. Or he is.


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## Chipomarc (Jul 18, 2015)

KenOC said:


> That's such a bizarre notion that I can only suspect you're mistaken. Or he is.


I have heard someone else say almost the same thing as egyptian wrote in the above post, so I much think that`s what he was getting at.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

KenOC said:


> Am I missing something here?


Maybe the 7th being even numbered relates to the number of movements, which would make the 6th odd numbered.


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## PeterF (Apr 17, 2014)

I would have to put the 5th symphony among my favorite Beethoven Symphonies.


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