# Getting a better overview of classical music repertoire



## UrbanK (Sep 10, 2016)

I've recently decided to no longer be ruled by YouTube's recommendation feature and googling "<composer> <genre>" and seeing what comes up because the results tends to be quite limited in scope.

Skip to bolded part it the end if you want me to get to the point

To that end I went to IMSLP and started listening to Beethoven String Quartets from #1 onwards. I got to #5 and enjoyed them all very much. But at that point I decided if I was going to be systematic about it, why start at Beethoven? So I opted to start with Bach and go forward from that. Granted, Bach is not "the first composer", but I wanted to go with something familiar.

Up to this point I've listened to:
All 6 Solo Violin Sonatas and Partitas
All 6 Cello Suites
Orchestral Suites no 1 - 3
French Suites
English Suites
Keyboard Partitas
All 6 Organ Sonatas
WTC
Goldberg Variations
Up to BWV 16 Cantatas
St. Mathias Passion
Art of the Fugue (sort of)
Inventions and Sinfonias
Cantata Ich habe genug BWV 82
The 2 Violin Concertos and the Double Violin Concerto
All Sonatas for Violin and Continuo/Harpsichord/Piano
All the Sonatas for Flute and Continuo/Harpsichord/Piano
The Solo Flute Partita
All Songs and Arias (439-518)

Of these I've most enjoyed the Solo Violin works, the Cello Suites, the accompanied Violin Sonatas, the Flute Sonatas, Goldberg Variations and WTC.

The Cantatas I enjoyed but not as "deeply".

The Passion I have to listen to again.

For some reason I find the French and English Suites quite difficult to get into.

Now I don't pretend to _know_ these pieces but at least I am familiar with them. The goal is to get to acquire a full catalogue of music I so that I can choose from that instead of wondering about on YouTube without really knowing what is out there.

*Does anyone have recommendations on what else to listen to of Bach and where to go next? I know that the B minor mass is a must. But who else? Corelli, Telemann, Handel, Tartini? What order would you recommend, and what's the pivot composer for the Classical Era?*

_*EDIT:
I appreciate all the replies and suggestions! My first reply is awaiting moderation. Not sure why, but wanted to thank you all now.*_


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## Mannheim Rocket (Aug 1, 2020)

Did you listen to the Brandenburg Concerti already? I scoured the list but couldn't find them. I consider those musts too if you haven't heard them yet.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

UrbanK said:


> *Does anyone have recommendations on what else to listen to of Bach and where to go next? I know that the B minor mass is a must. But who else? Corelli, Telemann, Handel, Tartini? What order would you recommend, and what's the pivot composer for the Classical Era?*


I am the opposite of you, because I am not a systematic listener. But do you really think that you get Bach, if you listened to all those pieces just once? I doubt it. You need to listen multiple times to really get it and enjoy it. As far as the other baroque composers go, I think Vivaldi, Handel, Purcell, Rameau, Pergolesi, Scarlatti, Biber, Zelenka are a good start


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## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

I agree that the Brandenburg Concerti are a must. Moving toward Classical, I recommend the CPE Bach Wq 183 symphonies. There are many very nice Telemann recorder and flute sonatas, which I generally prefer to Tafelmusik though the latter gets a lot of exposure.


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## UrbanK (Sep 10, 2016)

> I am the opposite of you, because I am not a systematic listener. But do you really think that you get Bach, if you listened to all those pieces just once? I doubt it. You need to listen multiple times to really get it and enjoy it. As far as the other baroque composers go, I think Vivaldi, Handel, Purcell, Rameau, Pergolesi, Scarlatti, Biber, Zelenka are a good start


Of course not! The purpose is to get a better overview so that I can later choose what to focus on with some knowledge of what it is. Thank you for the recommendations! 
I have listened to Scarlatti and it is quite the contrast to Bach.



> I agree that the Brandenburg Concerti are a must. Moving toward Classical, I recommend the CPE Bach Wq 183 symphonies. There are many very nice Telemann recorder and flute sonatas, which I generally prefer to Tafelmusik though the latter gets a lot of exposure.





> Did you listen to the Brandenburg Concerti already? I scoured the list but couldn't find them. I consider those musts too if you haven't heard them yet.


I have listened to those actually! Don't know how come I forgot to add them.

Of Telemann I only know the Solo Violin Fantasies. I will check out the recorder and flute music!


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

Jacck said:


> I am the opposite of you, because I am not a systematic listener. But do you really think that you get Bach, if you listened to all those pieces just once? I doubt it. You need to listen multiple times to really get it and enjoy it. As far as the other baroque composers go, I think Vivaldi, Handel, Purcell, Rameau, Pergolesi, Scarlatti, Biber, Zelenka are a good start


Second the suggestion to branch out.

My personal favourites in "proximity" to Bach would be: Heinrich Ignaz Franz von Biber and Michel-Richard de Lalande. Antonio Vivaldi and Jean-Philippe Rameau would also both be firmly in the 'must listen and learn' category, no matter what period of music turns out to be your favourite.

A recent discovery of my own I'd also thoroughly recommend: Johann Stamitz.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

I don't think there was ever much rhyme or reason in how I navigated my way through the repertoire. Of course, my experience goes all the way back to buying record albums in the store, so it was a different time when I would buy two three records at a time, and then listen to them over and over again for a week or two before I was able to move on.

Sometimes I moved along according to a composer I liked. Sometimes I'd get hooked on a particular genre. In my case, it was (and continues to be) the symphony that interests me; but for you it may be chamber music, religious works, opera, etc., so if you like Bach's _St. John Passion_, for example, I see no reason not to explore Handel's _Messiah_, as well as, Haydn's _Creation_; and then why not, Mendelssohn's _Elijah_; and Requiems by Berlioz, Verdi, and Faure? Dare I add, Stravinsky's _Symphony of the Psalms_ and Schoenberg's _Moses Und Aron_? Sometimes I was even guided by my favorite conductors or musicians, cover art, the name of the piece, whatever seemed interesting.

From early on, I used Harold Schoenberg's _The Lives of the Great Composers_, sort of as my classical music Bible and frame of reference, even if I came to disagree with Schoenberg's evaluations of Sibelius and Shostakovich, who I think are among the world's greatest composers of symphonies bar none. And then I was always limited by finances, relied heavily of CBS and RCA budget reissue lines; as well as, also being limited by what was available in the store.

Sometimes I think internet technology, YouTube and so forth, is to the detriment of what used to make being a music collector fun and exciting. Nowadays I can order anything I want on Amazon, hear anything I want on YouTube; but how much involves active listening, as opposed to the days when you bought the record, carefully took it out the sleeve, gently placed it on the turntable, gently cued it up, adjusted the stereo, read the liner notes, and lived with the recording for a while? There was a certain respect and reverence for the recording back when less was more.

Whatever you do, don't try to go chronological because then it will be five or ten years before you get to the wonderful composers of the 20th century such as Stravinsky, Shostakovich, Britten, Copland, and Barber.

I don't know if that answers your question but I'm sure it answers something.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

UrbanK said:


> Does anyone have recommendations on what else to listen to of Bach and where to go next?


The Leipzig Chorales. Clavier Ubung III. Orgelbuchlein. Musical Offering. The Canonic Variations.



UrbanK said:


> For some reason I find the French and English Suites quite difficult to get into.


The English suites may be quite early, and the French suites are domestic pieces. The French suites are, I think, worth persevering with, especially 4 and 5, but you'll need to find a sympathetic performance as always.



UrbanK said:


> ? Corelli, Telemann, Handel, Tartini?


None of those. Listen to Frescobaldi's Toccatas and Canzoni da Sonare, Froberger's suites, Louis Couperin's suites, CPE Bach's Kenner and Liebhaber music and if you must, a selection of Scarlatti's sonatas. Listen to Sainte Colombe and Purcell and Tobias Hume for viol music (the viol is an early cello.) Listen to Biber's Rosary sonatas. Listen to Buxtehude's suites and a selection of his organ music. Listen to Pachelbel's Hexachordum Apolinis. Listen to Georg Bohm's suites.



UrbanK said:


> and what's the pivot composer for the Classical Era?[/B]


Mozart.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

UrbanK said:


> I've recently decided to no longer be ruled by YouTube's recommendation feature and googling "<composer> <genre>" and seeing what comes up because the results tends to be quite limited in scope.
> 
> Skip to bolded part it the end if you want me to get to the point
> 
> ...


You've already become quite acquainted with Bach! I would say, at the bare minimum, these cantatas are absolutely essential listening that you haven't already heard (make sure to follow along with translations):

21
38
46
42
60
63
71
80
93
101
105
106
109
127
140
147

After that try the Concerti Grossi of Handel and Corelli - my favorite Baroque music outside Bach. Also try Vivaldi's Stabat Mater and Gloria, Zelenka's trio sonatas, Buxtehude's Membra Jesu Nostri, and, to go a bit earlier, Monteverdi's 1610 Vespers and Schütz's Musikalische Opfer - I would say that would give you a pretty good survey of the Baroque.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

I would suggest also checking out music by Handel and Telemann AND I would suggest not listening to the cantatas in BWV order as if it's a list of tasks and you're checking each off. Here's another "must":


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Lute music
BWV 235
Oboe concerti


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Speaking of the St John Passion, if I'm not mistaken this chorale was the original ending in the 1723 version. It also concludes Cantata 23 I believe. I think it's powerful:





I would say that in order to appreciate Bach's choral music it's good to take the time to learn what it is he's doing. Be familiar with the Lutheran chorale, which is the foundation of so much of Bach's music. Here's another glorious chorale setting:





And sorry to use the decidedly non-HIP Karajan recording here, but this whole famous section is built around the chorale "O Lamm Gottes unschuldig" which doesn't appear until around the 3:00 mark here:


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

consuono said:


> Speaking of the St John Passion, if I'm not mistaken this chorale was the original ending in the 1723 version. It also concludes Cantata 23 I believe. I think it's powerful:


I always preferred the _St. John Passion_ to the _St. Matthew_, and _St. John_ is probably my favorite work by Bach. For one thing it's shorter that St. Matthew, and it also seems to have more of an edge, a roughness to it, it's somewhat darker; maybe it's too hard for me to find the right word for what I'm trying to say.

My favorite HIP performance is Masaaki Suzuki and friends. As a matter of fact, it was Suzuki who finally brought me around to the HIP movement which I more-or-less avoided until Suzuki won me over. For un-HIP, of all people, Benjamin Britten, the English Chamber Orchestra and friends, is my favorite _St. John_; as it is well balanced, faithful, and strikes with an air of English polish that makes it sound reverent. Britten's set of Bach's _Brandenburgs_ is also my favorite un-HIP recording. Though Britten is, to me, one of the greatest composers of the 20th century, I also think he would have made a very fine full-time conductor, if the handful of Britten conducting other composer's works that I've heard is a fair indication.


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## BlackAdderLXX (Apr 18, 2020)

I asked a similar question earlier this year and got some helpful responses
Bach: Where to begin?


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## UrbanK (Sep 10, 2016)

Thank for all the helpful responses! Obviously haven't had the chance to listed to all the suggestions yet.

I have listened to the Brandenburg Concerti! Forgot to add them to the list.



> I am the opposite of you, because I am not a systematic listener. *But do you really think that you get Bach, if you listened to all those pieces just once?* I doubt it. You need to listen multiple times to really get it and enjoy it. As far as the other baroque composers go, I think Vivaldi, Handel, Purcell, Rameau, Pergolesi, Scarlatti, Biber, Zelenka are a good start


I don't think that at all, but the purpose is more to get an overview so that I can later choose something to focus on from an at least somewhat familiar catalogue. I have listened to many of these pieces multiple times though.
Thanks for the recommendations! I have listened to some Scarlatti sonatas and they are quite a contrast to Bach - at least those I tried. I will look at those others as well.



> Whatever you do, don't try to go chronological because then it will be five or ten years before you get to the wonderful composers of the 20th century such as Stravinsky, Shostakovich, Britten, Copland, and Barber.


Don't worry, I will stop this way before the five years have passed! Still want to see where it takes me for a little while longer though. Because actually, to your point about the detriment of internet technology, I find this is a sort of restriction simulates to some extent the pre-internet music scarcity. I think the topic deserves its own thread.

There definitely is something to be said for building a collection of records instead of a txt file of links. It builds a stronger immediate connection to the music since it isn't just another thing you searched up on Youtube or a streaming service. I imagine it also makes you commit to finding something in the music even if not immediately. *You are making me nostalgic for something I've never experienced. *

~~~



> I would say, at the bare minimum, these cantatas are absolutely essential listening that you haven't already heard (make sure to follow along with translations):
> 
> 21
> 38
> ...


Yesterday I listened to BWV 21 with translations and it really illuminates what Bach is doing. I loved that one! Must listen to the Mathias Passion like that at some point though I know the story. 
Should have learned German instead of French!



> I would suggest not listening to the cantatas in BWV order as if it's a list of tasks and you're checking each off


There's definitely of this method of listening becoming to perfunctory or even tedious. But I also don't want to listen to just the ones considered the greatest.



> I would say that in order to appreciate Bach's choral music it's good to take the time to learn what it is he's doing. Be familiar with the Lutheran chorale, which is the foundation of so much of Bach's music.





> I would say that in order to appreciate Bach's choral music it's good to take the time to learn what it is he's doing. Be familiar with the Lutheran chorale, which is the foundation of so much of Bach's music.


Great idea!



> And sorry to use the decidedly non-HIP Karajan recording here, but this whole famous section is built around the chorale "O Lamm Gottes unschuldig" which doesn't appear until around the 3:00 mark here:


I like that there are both HIP and non-HIP performances! It's a different perspective and the non-HIP ones were obviously done in earnest as well.

~~~

Interesting that no one has recommended the Harpsichord Concerti. Must say I don't particularly look forward to them. Though the same was true for Cantatas which turned out completely different (better) to what I expected.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

UrbanK said:


> ...
> Interesting that no one has recommended the Harpsichord Concerti. Must say I don't particularly look forward to them. Though the same was true for Cantatas which turned out completely different (better) to what I expected.


Well I'm obviously as big a Bach admirer/advocate/fanboi as you're going to find, but to be honest the harpsichord concerti aren't among my favorite works. I know they're historically important as being among the first of their kind, but most of them are reworked concerti for other instruments, and something seems to have been lost in translation. I think the one in D major (BWV 1054) sounds much better in its original form as a violin concerto. Also I feel the keyboard concertos sound better played on a piano, but I guess that's just my taste. Now the fifth Brandenburg concerto for harpsichord, violin and flute is heavenly. But of course listen to all of them yourself and come to your own conclusion.

I do think though that when it comes to keyboard concertos, Mozart reigns supreme.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

UrbanK said:


> Interesting that no one has recommended the Harpsichord Concerti. Must say I don't particularly look forward to them. Though the same was true for Cantatas which turned out completely different (better) to what I expected.


I actually heartily recommend those works! No. 1 and 2 (D minor and E major) are both masterpieces in very different ways - one is among his most tragic and intense instrumental works, while the other is pure lyricism and ebullience.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Another huge fan of Bach's harpsichord concertos here. BWV 1056 was one of the works that got me hooked on Bach, that and BWV 1052 are easily among my all time favorite keyboard concertos, all of his works in this genre are excellent.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Well yeah, on second thought this performance by Perahia of BWV 1054 is fine:





Here's where I first heard a part of it:


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## UrbanK (Sep 10, 2016)

I will have to give those Harpsichord Concerti a try then. I liked the BWV1054 above, but also prefer the violin version.

Listened to the Mathias Passion again yesterday with translations at hand. Wonderful! I find I prefer that kind of thing to Mozart operas (which is all opera I know for now). The text gets less in the way of the music and it doesn't try to be funny. Of course the Mozart operas are still great music I could just do with a more subdued plot. 

Also listened to some of the Rosary sonatas by Biber. Had never heard of it. I like it - quite unique.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Thanks to those who spoke up in defense of Bach's harpsichord concertos. I gave them another listen, and this one in particular, the 6th (an adaptation of the 4th Brandenburg concerto) is glorious. I think I prefer this to the original. I've ordered the sheet music for the concertos -- not going to print off 500 pages from imslp and don't use a tablet -- and can't wait to start *trying* to play them (I think they're more virtuosic than Mozart, tbh):


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

consuono said:


> and can't wait to start *trying* to play them (I think they're more virtuosic than Mozart, tbh):


The "virtuosity" in that is pretty much similar to Mozart's K.449. Again, harpsichord-era technique. 



I can't see why you can't handle them, (as far as physical technique is concerned) if you can play these:









sixths, thirds, octaves in the fugue:





*[ 6:07 ]*




[ 3:25 ] (and leaps in the finale)


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

UrbanK said:


> Does anyone have recommendations on what else to listen to of Bach and where to go next? I know that the B minor mass is a must.


I like the other smaller kyrie-gloria masses as well.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> The "virtuosity" in that is pretty much similar to Mozart's K.449. Again, harpsichord-era technique.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't see why you can't handle them, (as far as physical technique is concerned) if you can play these:


Those very rapid scales derived from the original violin runs look a little daunting to get down precisely. I'm a pretty good pianist, in most respects anyway :lol: but I'm certainly not at any sort of virtuoso level. On a lighter-action harpsichord or fortepiano they might not be as much of a problem. One "Mozartean" feature though in the Bach 6th concerto that I kind of miss in the others is more of an interplay between keyboard and woodwinds. That and not virtuoso technique really is what I think is remarkable about the Mozart concertos. Except maybe for...K. 449.


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