# Best Gurnemanz ?



## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

Who is the best Gurnemanz in Parsifal for you? Historical, poor-sound quality, incomplete performances, and snippets are all welcome.


----------



## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Hotter is the greatest Gurnemanz I've heard so far. I should point out that 1962 Kna was the first _Parsifal_ I properly listened to and still remains my favourite. In my opinion, Hotter's dark and rich voice is perfect fit for Gurnemanz. Although his voice was already declining in 1962, it doesn't disturb me at all and he approaches the character and the text with great intelligence and subtlety.

(I'm sure here are others who have heard significantly more different interpretations and this should rather be taken as my own very personal preference .)


----------



## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Of today's crop of singers Rene Pape.


----------



## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

I would personally never include Hotter in my list of favourite Gurnemanzs. Not the most solid kind of voice for me. I usually demand something more imposing.

I usually think of Hans Sotin, Kurt Moll and especially Ludwig Weber.


----------



## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Alexander Kipnis. And the vastly underrated Robert Lloyd.


----------



## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

I really loved László Polgár. He had a beautiful, warm voice and he nailed the kind but occasionally cranky nature of Gurnemanz. (he was also a great Sarastro, Leporello and King Philip.)


----------



## annaw (May 4, 2019)

wkasimer said:


> Alexander Kipnis. And the vastly underrated Robert Lloyd.


Is there a recording of _Parsifal_ with Kipnis as Gurnemanz? I listened to an excerpt of his Wotan some time ago and it made a very deep impression on me. (Actually any recordings with Kipnis are very welcome as I'm only aware of his 1941 _Die Walküre_.)


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

annaw said:


> Is there a recording of _Parsifal_ with Kipnis as Gurnemanz? I listened to an excerpt of his Wotan some time ago and it made a very deep impression on me. (Actually any recordings with Kipnis are very welcome as I'm only aware of his 1941 _Die Walküre_.)


There is a live one from Buenos Aires, but I haven't heard it, only the studio recording he made of the main aria.

N.


----------



## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

Yes, regarding the Kipnis live performance, Parsifal was Rene Maison and Kundry was Marjorie Lawrence. The conductor was Fritz Busch. Very nice one but pitty the poor sound quality.


----------



## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

wkasimer said:


> Alexander Kipnis. And the vastly underrated Robert Lloyd.


Moll is my pick, but Lloyd is real close for me. It's a big part of why I'm such a fan of the Armin Jordan recording.


----------



## annaw (May 4, 2019)

I listened to some bits of Kipnis’ 1927 recording with Siegfried Wagner conducting and his Gurnemanz sounds indeed marvellous!


----------



## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

I go with Kurt Moll as well.


----------



## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

Speaking of historical recording, Ludwig Hofmann in the legendary 1928 *Karl Muck*'s recording of Act 3 is impressive (so is Gotthelf Pistor's Parsifal):


----------



## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Kurt Moll as well for me.


----------



## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

annaw said:


> Is there a recording of _Parsifal_ with Kipnis as Gurnemanz?


Yes; it's OOP and a little hard to find at a reasonable price, but it shows up on eBay from time to time. The sound is pretty limited and the performance is cut:











> I listened to an excerpt of his Wotan some time ago and it made a very deep impression on me


.

Probably this one:






Although he sang Wotan on stage early in his career, he stuck to bass roles after about 1930.



> (Actually any recordings with Kipnis are very welcome as I'm only aware of his 1941 _Die Walküre_.)


There's a fair amount available, but start here:


----------



## annaw (May 4, 2019)

wkasimer said:


> Yes; it's OOP and a little hard to find at a reasonable price, but it shows up on eBay from time to time. The sound is pretty limited and the performance is cut:
> 
> View attachment 137576
> 
> ...


Huge thanks! I'll check these out! Yes, it was certainly Wotan's Farewell I listened to.


----------



## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Granate said:


> I would personally never include Hotter in my list of favourite Gurnemanzs. Not the most solid kind of voice for me. I usually demand something more imposing.


On strictly vocal terms, Hotter is certainly no match for any of those mentioned. But I think that concentrating on sheer vocalism misses the point. There is no Gurnemanz, IMO, who brings such interpretive nuance to every single phrase that Gurnemanz utters. I read a survey of Parsifal recordings a long time ago, and the author (I think that it was Kenneth Furie in High Fidelity) said (I'm paraphrasing from memory, so forgive me) that next to Hotter, every other Gurnemanz sounds generalized. I think that's exactly right.


----------



## annaw (May 4, 2019)

wkasimer said:


> On strictly vocal terms, Hotter is certainly no match for any of those mentioned. But I think that concentrating on sheer vocalism misses the point. *There is no Gurnemanz, IMO, who brings such interpretive nuance to every single phrase that Gurnemanz utters.* I read a survey of Parsifal recordings a long time ago, and the author (I think that it was Kenneth Furie in High Fidelity) said (I'm paraphrasing from memory, so forgive me) that next to Hotter, every other Gurnemanz sounds generalized. I think that's exactly right.


That's exactly the reason why I like his Gurnemanz but as I know people prioritise vocalism and vocal acting very differently, I regard it strictly as my own personal preference.


----------



## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

annaw said:


> That's exactly the reason why I like his Gurnemanz but as I know people prioritise vocalism and vocal acting very differently, I regard it strictly as my own personal preference.


It's among the reasons I avoid words like "best" and "definitive". I think that for any role (or music), different performers have different strengths, and bring different things to the role. So it's difficult for me to choose between Hotter, Lloyd, Moll, Weber, Frick, and Pape. All are exceptional in their own ways.


----------



## gvn (Dec 14, 2019)

wkasimer said:


> > Originally Posted by annaw
> > Is there a recording of Parsifal with Kipnis as Gurnemanz?
> 
> 
> Yes; it's OOP and a little hard to find at a reasonable price, but it shows up on eBay from time to time.


It can still be bought in CD-R format directly from Marston Records. (Or from Operadepot, though in somewhat lesser sound quality.)

Amazing, amazing cast. To listen to such a performance is an honor and a privilege. We have no right to expect that _either_ Kipnis _or_ Lawrence _or_ Maison (always an intelligent performer with interesting ideas about his role) would have been preserved in an entire Parsifal in _any_ sound quality--let alone all three together!


----------



## gvn (Dec 14, 2019)

wkasimer said:


> I think that for any role (or music), different performers have different strengths, and bring different things to the role. So it's difficult for me to choose between Hotter, Lloyd, Moll, Weber, Frick, and Pape. All are exceptional in their own ways.


This seems to me one of the most fascinating things about Gurnemanz: he's just about the most completely open-ended major character in any opera I can think of. We can't tell if he's handsome or ugly, short or tall, fat or thin, strong or disabled, mid-30s (remember, that was a plausible age for a grandfather in medieval times) or late 80s. We don't even know his social class. He might be a cousin of the royal family; he might be a peasant boy who entered the community as a young page and slowly worked his way up. He can be played as the latest repository of age-old wisdom handed down from previous generations (cf. Pimen), or as a gruff & stupid man groping painfully in the dark.

So I don't feel at all inclined to complain if Kipnis sings with a strong Russian accent. Why shouldn't Gurnemanz have come from Russia? Nor if Hotter's voice sounds worn. Isn't it dramatically appropriate for _this_ character's voice to sound worn? Nor if Greindl sings with a voice of concentrated black acid. Isn't it equally appropriate dramatically for him to have such a voice? Nor if Moll sings with constant quiet refinement. Why shouldn't Gurnemanz be quiet & refined?

When I listen to those four singers in the role (and several others), I fall _totally_ under their spell. In each case, I believe that what I'm hearing is absolutely right for Gurnemanz, _in every detail,_ and I wouldn't want it altered in any way.

If anything I want to broaden my mind and open my ears still further to other plausible conceptions of the part. Recently I heard, for the first time, Jochum's 1973 Bayreuth broadcast with Franz Mazura as Gurnemanz. A most unlikely piece of casting, I would have said. But his approach to the role is absorbing. He treats it more conversationally than any other singer I've ever heard, as if he's not delivering lectures but simply chatting to you. Again I ask, why not? (He's aided considerably by Jochum's surprisingly fleet-footed treatment of the score, allowing the singers to take huge clauses in a single breath.)

I don't mean that every Gurnemanz sounds right to me. Matthias Hölle, on Barenboim's otherwise excellent set, I find far too monochrome for comfort. Every time I return to that set, I hope to enjoy him better, but so far it hasn't happened. And I'm extremely sorry to say that my liking for Weber's Gurnemanz has weakened over the decades. The voice is stunning, but the acting, alas.... An immense pity, because it has tarnished my enjoyment of some of the best Parsifal recordings ever made. No, I want to broaden, not narrow, my concept of this part.


----------



## Music Snob (Nov 14, 2018)

...speaking from audio recordings only and not stage presence...

IMO, I like Josef Griendl in 54 Kna and Gottlob Frick from Solti. Griendl really did a splendid job for a live performance. Listen to those bass notes in act 3!


----------



## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Oops, wrong thread, sorry


----------



## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

gvn said:


> It can still be bought in CD-R format directly from Marston Records. (Or from Operadepot, though in somewhat lesser sound quality.)
> 
> Amazing, amazing cast. To listen to such a performance is an honor and a privilege. We have no right to expect that _either_ Kipnis _or_ Lawrence _or_ Maison (always an intelligent performer with interesting ideas about his role) would have been preserved in an entire Parsifal in _any_ sound quality--let alone all three together!


Oh man, you made me drool for the Marston release! Too bad it is ways too expensive.


----------



## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

gvn said:


> This seems to me one of the most fascinating things about Gurnemanz: he's just about the most completely open-ended major character in any opera I can think of. We can't tell if he's handsome or ugly, short or tall, fat or thin, strong or disabled, mid-30s (remember, that was a plausible age for a grandfather in medieval times) or late 80s. We don't even know his social class. He might be a cousin of the royal family; he might be a peasant boy who entered the community as a young page and slowly worked his way up. He can be played as the latest repository of age-old wisdom handed down from previous generations (cf. Pimen), or as a gruff & stupid man groping painfully in the dark.
> 
> So I don't feel at all inclined to complain if Kipnis sings with a strong Russian accent. Why shouldn't Gurnemanz have come from Russia? Nor if Hotter's voice sounds worn. Isn't it dramatically appropriate for _this_ character's voice to sound worn? Nor if Greindl sings with a voice of concentrated black acid. Isn't it equally appropriate dramatically for him to have such a voice? Nor if Moll sings with constant quiet refinement. Why shouldn't Gurnemanz be quiet & refined?


This is very well-put. The diversity of preferences showed in this thread so far demonstrated how open-ended this character is. I myself imagine him somewhere between the philosophical Hans Sachs and grief-ridden King Marke.


----------



## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

silentio said:


> Oh man, you made me drool for the Marston release! Too bad it is ways too expensive.


Be patient and alert on eBay. I bought a copy there for $30.


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

For those who say that Hotter is the best Gurnemanz, which of his recordings in the role do you consider his best?

N.


----------



## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

I love Kurt Moll's Gurnemanz in the Kubelik recording of Parsifal.


----------



## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

The Conte said:


> For those who say that Hotter is the best Gurnemanz, which of his recordings in the role do you consider his best?


I'd go for either 1962, which has the best sound by far, or 1964, which has Vickers.


----------



## annaw (May 4, 2019)

wkasimer said:


> I'd go for either 1962, which has the best sound by far, or 1964, which has Vickers.


I actually haven't listened to 1964 though I've been wanting to do that for quite some time. I second the 1962 recording though!


----------



## Spy Car (Nov 15, 2017)

Sieglinde said:


> I really loved László Polgár. He had a beautiful, warm voice and he nailed the kind but occasionally cranky nature of Gurnemanz. (he was also a great Sarastro, Leporello and King Philip.)


Are you referring to the 1983 Parsifal conducted by János Ferencsik?

I admire László Polgár. I Am enraptured with Parsifal. But have never heard him sing Gurnemanz.
If this is the one, I will seek it.

Bill


----------



## gvn (Dec 14, 2019)

wkasimer said:


> > Originally Posted by The Conte
> > For those who say that Hotter is the best Gurnemanz, which of his recordings in the role do you consider his best?
> 
> 
> I'd go for either 1962, which has the best sound by far, or 1964, which has Vickers.


I'm afraid there's no straightforward answer to this one!! I fully agree that 1962 has the best sound and that Vickers is special in 1964. On the other hand, 1963 may have the best-balanced cast (mainly the 1962 cast, except that Windgassen replaces its weak link, Thomas); while Hotter himself is in much better voice in the 1954 Met performance!

Principal singers in the four recordings:

1954 Met (slightly abridged): Svanholm (P), Hotter (G), Varnay (Ku), London (A), Lawrence Davidson (Kl), cond. Stiedry

1962 Bayreuth: Thomas (P), Hotter (G), Dalis (Ku), London (A), Neidlinger (Kl), cond. Knappertsbusch

1963 Bayreuth: Windgassen (P), Hotter (G), Dalis (Ku), London (A), Neidlinger (Kl), cond. Knappertsbusch

1964 Bayreuth: Vickers (P), Hotter (G), Barbro Ericson (Ku), Stewart (A), Neidlinger (Kl), cond. Knappertsbusch

One may debate the swings & roundabouts... but in a sense it doesn't matter greatly, because all four are pretty good performances.


----------



## annaw (May 4, 2019)

gvn said:


> I'm afraid there's no straightforward answer to this one!! I fully agree that 1962 has the best sound and that Vickers is special in 1964. On the other hand, 1963 may have the best-balanced cast (mainly the 1962 cast, except that Windgassen replaces its weak link, Thomas); *while Hotter himself is in much better voice in the 1954 Met performance!*


1954 is an interesting performance because it was actually the first time Hotter sang Gurnemanz on stage (and the last time he sang at Met) and it has Varnay as Kundry. Considering how great Hotter's Wotan was in 1953 then I guess his Gurnemanz in 1954 must also be better, at least vocally, than in 1960s but I haven't heard the performance myself. I listened to some excerpts from Pristine and the sound seems to be unusually good.


----------



## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

https://www.talkclassical.com/37401-historical-wagner-recordings-299.html?highlight=#post1809428

With ref to the 1954 NewYork Parsifal I wrote this a while ago.


----------



## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Spy Car said:


> Are you referring to the 1983 Parsifal conducted by János Ferencsik?
> 
> I admire László Polgár. I Am enraptured with Parsifal. But have never heard him sing Gurnemanz.
> If this is the one, I will seek it.
> ...


It's only available as a download either from Hungaroton or iTunes. You can have either MP3 or FLAC at Hungaroton.


----------



## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

Jerome Hines in the Leinsdorf 1960 Met Parsifal was a great Gurnemanz as well.


----------



## Fredrikalansson (Jan 29, 2019)

I actually prefer Moll on von Karajan's recording, but overall I prefer Kubelik's recording. But Moll was such a consistent singer that either performance will satisfy. 

Love Hotter's performance from 62 because his engagement with the text adds so much to the performance. After all, in the beginning of Act III Gurnemanz is more or less talking to himself.

Another favourite, and a complete surprise, was Franz Crass on the Boulez set. I always thought him a rather stolid singer, but he's incredibly dramatic for Boulez. Try him out!


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Fredrikalansson said:


> Another favourite, and a complete surprise, was Franz Crass on the Boulez set. I always thought him a rather stolid singer, but he's incredibly dramatic for Boulez. Try him out!


Crass surprised me pleasantly too. Unfortunately he is, IMO, the only first-rate thing about the Boulez _Parsifal._ James King is wooden (he's much more vivid later for Kubelik), Gwyneth Jones was always better seen than merely heard, and Boulez doesn't let the music expand and breathe.


----------

