# Newbie here...



## SPR (Nov 12, 2008)

Greetings.

I feel a little pent up. I know *very* few people that are willing or able to discuss classical music in any detail. Shrug..which is fine. I must admit however, I am positively drooling at the prospect of learning of new pieces I might be interested in etc and thought such a forum as this might be a good source of info.

And so... here I am.

married guy 'mid 40s', and I have always been into music. I have a couple thousand CD's and only within the last 3 or 4 years have I *really* become interested in classical music - of which I only have a mediocre sampling. I must sheepishly admit that Wendy Carlos 'Switched on Bach' was something I listened to when quite young and I was immediately stunned and amazed at it.

Last year, I bought the Brilliant Classics Complete works of Mozart, and I am now so utterly and completely taken by all of it that there is little hope of redemption I am afraid. 
I have not yet acquired a taste for opera, but the rest of it is simply jaw-dropping. (I mean the compositions... some of the Brilliant Classics versions are not the best, and I have picked up better versions of many of my favorites... Emerson Quartet, London Symphony Orchestra, etc). The scope and magnitude of this stuff in a brief 30-ish years boggles me.

I am likely preaching to the choir though.

I am also currently digging many (most) of the Haydn string quartets. Wonderful. I also have been dabbling in Bach, Vivaldi, Corelli, Handel, Scarlatti and a few others. I think I am very much entrenched in the the sort of baroque period at the moment. I think clarity of composition helps a rookie like myself.

Beethoven (and this is undoubtedly heresy)... I just do not get most of the time, though it is impossible not to consider the 5th perhaps the most amazing construct ever created. I am enjoying string quartets op 18 very much, but I find the late string quartets overly self-indulgent and painful. Im sure I have barely scratched the surface and I need to find other LVB work I might enjoy.

Anyway - looking forward to chatting a little and learning more!


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## opus67 (Jan 30, 2007)

Hey, SPR, welcome to TC! You will certainly have people here to discuss and share information about classical music



SPR said:


> Beethoven (and this is undoubtedly heresy)... I just do not get most of the time, though it is impossible not to consider the 5th perhaps the most amazing construct ever created. I am enjoying string quartets op 18 very much, but I find the late string quartets overly self-indulgent and painful. Im sure I have barely scratched the surface and I need to find other LVB work I might enjoy.
> 
> Anyway - looking forward to chatting a little and learning more!


It's funny that I was mentioning elsewhere, just a few hours ago, that Beethoven's music should never present a problem to anyone who is new to it. And the context - an introduction to his string quartets! It was in jest, of course. In reality, some people do take time to appreciate the later quartets, but when you do get to that point, you will be in a whole new and wondrous world. Have you listened to those beyond the early quartets, yet? The Razumovskys form a great set. This is the same Beethoven who also produced the 5th symphony; that is to say, it was from the same period of his life.


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## SPR (Nov 12, 2008)

I will keep my eyes open for that... Op 59 I think, right? any particular version or performance you particularly like? 

Generally, simply because I have noticed this... I look for recording from Phillips, EMI, or Deutch Gram simnce these appear to be superior almost without exeption from what I have listened to. Im just starting to pick up on the artists I like.

I also have this impression of Beethoven as a world class bipolar prima donna insufferable self important emo prig - so he has his work cut out for him to overcome that. ;-)


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

SPR said:


> Beethoven (and this is undoubtedly heresy)... I just do not get most of the time


There are gloomy times when I feel that my whole musical life has been a series of struggles against the feeling of 'not getting' some-composer-or-other, not understanding why, and worrying about it. I try to persuade myself that things will change; and things do change, though not as quickly as I'd like; and on the whole I never manage to understand what makes the difference when the barriers finally go down.

At the present time I'm being hugely rewarded by an enormous amount of music that I was completely indifferent to, ten years ago. So there's real progress going on. But I still have no idea how to 'get' Mozart. I've tried working my way through the symphonies; I've listened to the 'dedicated to Haydn' quartets several times each; I've struggled and struggled with the operas. And while I've found a few gems here and there, they're like tiny oases in a great desert. I know there's some deficiency in my musical sensibilities that's causing this; I know that one day, it may all simply, inexplicably, fall into place. But till then, there's this big Mozart-shaped hole.

But it was once like that with _all_ opera, and now I can't get enough of the stuff, and there are many other examples. So, my sympathies are with your reservations about Beethoven and opera, but in my experience, you just never can tell what's waiting around the corner to jump out and knock you over.


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## SPR (Nov 12, 2008)

You may think me crazy, but I had such good luck with the Mozart set, I may try the Bach and Beethoven ones too. At a little more than $100 bucks each they are very, very good - and can give someone the chance to listen to, well.. everything. 170, 155, and 85 CD's respectively. Thats some serious Mojo. (whatever that means)

The performers on them and not simply chumps either - a good portion of the CD's on the mozart set are quality work. I think the symphonic works tend to be weaker.




























I hear they are supposed to be putting out a Haydn one - I thought this year but I have not seen it.


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## SPR (Nov 12, 2008)

Elgarian said:


> ...But I still have no idea how to 'get' Mozart....


Oh My.

Brother.... we need to talk. 

tell you what. Lets trade a piece and critique, admire, or complain. What do you think? I dislike opera but adore harmony, counterpoint and complexity - so whats not to like?


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## Mendelssohn (Nov 24, 2007)

SPR said:


> You may think me crazy, but I had such good luck with the Mozart set, I may try the Bach and Beethoven ones too. At a little more than $100 bucks each they are very, very good - and can give someone the chance to listen to, well.. everything. 170, 155, and 85 CD's respectively.


I too have the special editions of Mozart,Bach,Beethoven (100cd) and Chopin...so you are not crazy...unless we both are!As for Haydn, i haven't heard anything yet...

As for the quality of Mozart's edition,i agree that the symphonies are not the best example of music performance...but the piano work is extraordinary!!!


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## Kuhlau (Oct 1, 2008)

Mendelssohn (the member here, not the composer from way back then) is right to admire the Mozart piano discs in that bumper edition from Brilliant Classics. Especially if he's referring to Klara Wurtz's brilliance with the piano sonatas. I had the 40-CD cut-down version of that set some years back (got rid of it, as I'm not a huge Mozartian), but those solo piano works were later reacquired. Unmissable music.

As for Beethoven, I reckon there's plenty still to be enjoyed by our newest member. Of the symphonies, try the Third, Sixth and Ninth next. Then treat yourself to the Fourth and Fifth Piano Concerti. Some middle-period Beethoven in the form of his Violin Sonatas would ease you nicely into his smaller compositions; and be sure to hear, at the very least, Piano Sonatas Nos. 8, 14 and 23.

The Third Cello Sonata is another charmer; and the Violin Concerto is a must-hear ... although I must INSIST you buy (or borrow) only this recording of it first - you'll thank me later, I assure you:










Oh, what an enviable journey you have ahead of you. Take it slowly, take it all in, and don't neglect the 'lesser' composers. Many, many brilliant gems can be found in the output of composers beyond those generally acknowledged as 'great'. 

FK


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Anyone wanting to really _get_ Beethoven might try the piano sonatas and Andras Schiff's amazing and reverent lectures on each at this link:

http://music.guardian.co.uk/classical/page/0,,1943867,00.html

I appreciated Beethoven before , but these elevated him to hero status for me.

BUT having said that -- I too came into classical via Wendy Carlos in the late 60's and also through progressive rock. So I feel a kinship. I binged on baroque for many years. Nothing wrong with going for baroque!


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## SPR (Nov 12, 2008)

ok.. you forced me into it... (Wendy Carlos)

2 things. The first is that it is obvious subject matter for what he/she (rolleyes) was doing.. Bach was perfect multi-voiced complex goodness to attack.

However, the original Moog and (gads) *4-track* tape were pretty limited. Can you imagine trying to play chords with an instrument that only played 1 note at a time and multitracking it? No attack, no diminish. Just on technical difficulty, this is quite an achievement. We are talking waveform bending here, not putzing around on a $50 Casio keyboard like today. Pure brilliance. Trying to come up with sound that does not merely mimic an instrument, but that rather is completely different, and works well - works wonderfully.

There is a point where mere 'craftsmanship' begins to morph into artistry and genius. Carlos did exactly that IMHO. Taking Bachs sublime constructions and creating a (in some cases) completely new soundscape. It really is amazing if you have not given it a whirl.

Here, sample these... Cantata #29 on organ, and Wendy Carlos version. (about 5 meg each)

(I wont leave these up there long... I dont want to get sued to smithereens)

http://steven.richardson.home.comcast.net/~steven.richardson/Cantata29a.mp3

http://steven.richardson.home.comcast.net/~steven.richardson/Cantata29b.mp3

I also appreciate the beethoven comments! (that grim picture reinforces some of the tedious melodrama from him that I tend to dislike however.  )


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2008)

Elgarian said:


> There are gloomy times when I feel that my whole musical life has been a series of struggles against the feeling of 'not getting' some-composer-or-other, not understanding why, and worrying about it. I try to persuade myself that things will change; and things do change, though not as quickly as I'd like; and on the whole I never manage to understand what makes the difference when the barriers finally go down.
> 
> .


This is weird Elgarian, I was thinking the very same thoughts last night there are some composers that I have great difficulty with, I am going to start a new thread and see if its me or what 
*
SPR* forgive me for going off topic, Welcome aboard the good ship TC


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## opus67 (Jan 30, 2007)

SPR said:


> I will keep my eyes open for that... Op 59 I think, right? any particular version or performance you particularly like?


I have only one. It's the set on EMI with the Alban Berg Quartet.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

SPR said:


> tell you what. Lets trade a piece and critique, admire, or complain. What do you think? I dislike opera but adore harmony, counterpoint and complexity - so whats not to like?


To tell the truth, I'd find an exchange like that too pressured. But also, only a couple of weeks ago I did my duty and listened to a few of the early symphonies (from Pinnock's set), just in case something might click this time, but it didn't. So I've had enough Mozart for the moment (particularly since I've just unexpectedly discovered Bellini and am reluctant to give up my Bellini Blitz).

To answer your 'what's not to like?' question - well, nothing, of course. That's the trouble. I'm expecting the earth to move, but all I get is a pleasant whisper in my ear. (See Andante's recent thread on music we don't 'get'.) Besides, I really only confessed my Misgivings about Mozart to offer a parallel with your Beethovenian Bafflement, not in the hope of a cure for my own Mozartian Misfortune.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Elgarian said:


> To tell the truth, I'd find an exchange like that too pressured. But also, only a couple of weeks ago I did my duty and listened to a few of the early symphonies (from Pinnock's set), just in case something might click this time, but it didn't.


Don't want to interfere, but Mozart was just a teenager when he wrote his early symphonies. Almost a toddler when he wrote the very early ones in fact. I agree that they were nothing special in the big scheme of things, but pleasant is the best one can hope for from someone that young. But anyway, he didn't really get going until No.25 in my opinion. From that point onwards he made his mark


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

jhar26 said:


> Don't want to interfere, but Mozart was just a teenager when he wrote his early symphonies. Almost a toddler when he wrote the very early ones in fact.


Yes I know - but I have the Pinnock box set of symphonies, which is an awful lot of Mozart, and thought this time I'd start at the beginning instead of picking out the plums at the end, on the grounds that I've listened to the later symphonies several times but haven't got anywhere much. Actually I think the first few are quite jolly! (I think I'm a lost cause, really, in this department.)


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## SPR (Nov 12, 2008)

laugh... hey, this isnt about persuasion really. I'm actually off to go take another stab at those insufferably tedious Beethoven late quartets again. I keep hearing they are better than cats scratching on a chalkboard. I will prevail! 

===========

Yeah... first few symphonies when he (Mozart) was 9 & 10. Alot of very amazing work by the time he was 20. The jaw dropping stuff started coming when we was 25-30. It is undeniable he was getting better by leaps and bounds in his last few years. It breaks my heart to imagine what he could have accomplished had he lived another 40 years like Papa Haydn!

(works by date: http://www.mozartproject.org/compositions/index.html )

for me there are 2 that are simply head, shoulders, and thorax above everyone... Mozart and Bach - and the 2 are like apples and oranges - couldnt be more different.

Elgarian - suggest to me an opera, vocal, or choral or rather a part of one to listen to and I will give it a try. At least I know at that point I will be starting at some reference point rather than just shooting in the dark.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

SPR said:


> I'm actually off to go take another stab at those insufferably tedious Beethoven late quartets again. I keep hearing they are better than cats scratching on a chalkboard.


I haven't dared say this till now, but I truly, deeply sympathise. I have a terrible blind spot for the Beethoven Late Quartets too. (I'm a bit alarmed about continuing to reveal my inadequacies at this rate.)



> Elgarian - suggest to me an opera, vocal, or choral or rather a part of one to listen to and I will give it a try. At least I know at that point I will be starting at some reference point rather than just shooting in the dark.


This is a really tough request. Not only because different people will make different recommendations (which others may loathe), but also because I myself would have made different recommendations say, five years ago. Also, most of my tastes in opera veer towards the later Romantics, whereas you seem more comfortably positioned with music earlier than that. So I'm inclined to think that a list of operas recommended by me might turn out to be a list of things you should avoid ....

And now I've just been interrupted, so I'll have to complete this tomorrow. In the meantime, I bet *jhar26* will have some good operatic tips for you, if he's around, and reading this.


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## Mendelssohn (Nov 24, 2007)

SPR said:


> suggest to me an opera, vocal, or choral or rather a part of one to listen to and I will give it a try. At least I know at that point I will be starting at some reference point rather than just shooting in the dark.


I find that you are right to be cautious about opera or choral music...i had the same opinion before a couple of years until i tried to listen to some opera music just to say that i've at least tried...

I am 18 yo and i have a collection of about 1500 cds (mainly classical music) and i would like to suggest some pieces to enter the magic (in my opinion) world of vocal music:

*Choral music*:you said you like counterpoint.A very good example from the second best counterpoint composer (the first being J.S.Bach) to give a try. 




and from the famous Requiem of Mozart:





*Vocal Music* (with chorus and orchestra):









*Opera*:








and speaking of complexity (you said you like):




(for the opera i use pieces that have some complexity and are fast and impressive...there are,of course, and moving pieces that you may love)

I understand that (with the quote i used) you probably didn't ask for some examples of vocal,choral,opera music to listen but answered to Elgarian.No matter what,however, i think that i give you some quite interesting points to start listening to that kind of music,if you would like to do so...


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## SPR (Nov 12, 2008)

Elgarian said:


> ...This is a really tough request...


I say Bah! What are you afraid of, disappointing me?! Regardless, sir knight - I honor your position. You may feel free to submit suggestions in triplicate to the ministry of information at any time in the future... or simply toss me a bone as you stumble upon one you particularly enjoy.

Mendelssohn - you know, I have heard Requiem cited sooooo often. I will give that a spin tonight. Thank you for the suggestions, I will revisit this thread and let you know specifically what I think of some of these.

(rubbing hand together gleefully) I have quite a bit of musical homework to do this evening. Beethoven Late quartets, and Requiem - or at least start it. Tell me.. you may know this, wasnt Requiem "unfinished"?


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## Mendelssohn (Nov 24, 2007)

SPR said:


> Tell me.. you may know this, wasnt Requiem "unfinished"?


Mozart fully completed only the Introitus.From Kyrie to Domine Jesu he composed the vocals, the chorus and some of the instrument parts.The rest was completed by Süssmayr, a friend of Mozart.It is said that Mozart gave Süssmayr detailed instructions on how to complete the Requiem.This myth was started by Constanze when the fact that Mozart left the Requiem unfinished at his death became public knowledge. To maximize the value of the Requiem, and improve Constanze's security, the public had to believe that Mozart somehow guided the entire work. Exactly what Mozart might have told Süssmayr about the Requiem is not clear. Both Constanze and Süssmayr created the myth of Mozart leaving "scraps of paper" with "detailed instructions", but it was ultimately discovered that it was untrue. She and Süssmayr stated that they were on other "scraps of paper", but it was discovered that the remainder of the Requiem was sketched out on blank manuscript.

No matter what really happened, Requiem is a perfect selection for tonight!!!And if you like it so much, you must try Mendelssohn's Oratorio Elias...the true Giant of choral music from Bach's "Mathew's Passions" to Orff's "Carmina Burana"


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Elgarian said:


> I bet *jhar26* will have some good operatic tips for you, if he's around, and reading this.


Seems to me that since his favorite composer is Mozart that he should start with, say, *Le Nozze di Figaro* and *Die Zauberflote* for opera and the *Requiem* and the *Mass in C Minor* for choral music. But he has the complete Mozart edition, so he probably has listened to those already.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

SPR said:


> I say Bah! What are you afraid of, disappointing me?!


On the contrary, as I explained at the end of my post, last night I was interrupted before I'd finished.

The problem is this: if I consider the music I normally listen to, and compare it with the stuff you're responding very positively to, there's very little overlap. So my guess is (based on previous experience of folk swapping recommendations) that my list of recommended operas will, as I said, most likely turn out to be a list of things you won't enjoy. jhar26 is right - given your propensity for Mozart, his operas are the most obvious place to start (but if _I'd_ started with Mozart operas they'd have put me off opera for life).

I was introduced to opera through Wagner - _The Ring_ - and it became one of the most important things in my life for several years; but I don't know anyone else who's ever gone down that particular route, so it wouldn't seem sensible to recommend it to you. I remember, at that time, having a conversation with a colleague: 
He said 'Wagner? How can you listen to that? There are no tunes in any of it!' 
To which I replied, 'But the tunes never stop! It's full of tunes. It's one long wonderful continuous celebration of the dramatic power of magnificent tunes! What do you listen to?'
'Verdi,' he said.
'But, but ... the tunes in Verdi are so _feeble_ by comparison,' I said ....

You see the problem?

But anyway, leaving _The Ring_ aside, here are three operas that move me over and over again, that are full of great tunes, and which, almost certainly, you should probably avoid:

*Manon (Massenet)
La Boheme and Suor Angelica (Puccini)*

To this list, I'd add two things that, for me, represent the ultimate pinnacle of where music can take me:

*1. 'The Presentation of the Silver Rose' (Richard Strauss)* from _Der Rosenkavalier_, conveniently presented in a wonderful version on this collection of highlights which you ought to grab now, because it looks as though it may not be available for much longer and at the moment is as cheap as chips (and as a bonus you get a second disc of highlights from _Don Giovanni_ bundled with it):

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mozart-Giov...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1226654826&sr=1-1










And my final recommendation, vocal/choral but not operatic, will similarly not break the bank, nor take up much of your time:

*2. The Spirit of England (Elgar). *Not well-known; three pieces lasting only half an hour in total; but one of Elgar's very greatest works, and it's beyond me why it's so neglected. The version to get (accept no substitutes) is this one:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Choral-Works/dp/B000000A9N/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1226655446&sr=1-1

which, as you'll see, is being offered at a derisory price, so you can afford to ignore the _Coronation Ode_ which accompanies it.










If I were to imagine being told that I could only listen to two final pieces of music (followed by a life of silence), these last two (the Strauss and the Elgar) are the ones I'd choose. As you'd put works by Mozart and Bach at the tiptop of everything, so I put these.


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## SPR (Nov 12, 2008)

Elgarian said:


> ...If I were to imagine being told that I could only listen to two final pieces of music (followed by a life of silence), these last two (the Strauss and the Elgar) are the ones I'd choose.


Well now, that is quite a statement. I find it very hard to pick a few 'final pieces'.. but I have some ideas...

Thank you for the detailed response! I have some Haydn quartets next up in the queue, but I have added these to the list.

So much music, so little time....


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## SPR (Nov 12, 2008)

jhar26 said:


> Seems to me that since his favorite composer is Mozart that he should start with, say, *Le Nozze di Figaro* and *Die Zauberflote* for opera and the *Requiem* and the *Mass in C Minor* for choral music. But he has the complete Mozart edition, so he probably has listened to those already.


Yes, I have them, but have been imersed in most of the rest of it and have not really given any of them a fair listen. I have sampled Figaro, Cosi fan tute, and Zauberflote - but not seriously.

Random comment - I have digitized to high quality MP3 the entire set, so if anyone has a request for a hard to find piece, or indeed is a Mozart fan and wants to sample something new - (within reason) send me a note and I can probably suggest something or send what you are looking for.


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## Lang (Sep 30, 2008)

Elgarian said:


> At the present time I'm being hugely rewarded by an enormous amount of music that I was completely indifferent to, ten years ago. So there's real progress going on. But I still have no idea how to 'get' Mozart. I've tried working my way through the symphonies; I've listened to the 'dedicated to Haydn' quartets several times each; I've struggled and struggled with the operas. And while I've found a few gems here and there, they're like tiny oases in a great desert. I know there's some deficiency in my musical sensibilities that's causing this; I know that one day, it may all simply, inexplicably, fall into place. But till then, there's this big Mozart-shaped hole.


I had exactly the same problem; I think that Mozart is probably more difficult than Schoenberg to actually 'get'. The trouble is, the music is pretty, and prettiness is all that some people get from it. It was actually playing Mozart that made me appreciate the various aspects of his music. And oddly I couldn't actually verbalise what I actually do get from it, which I can do with other composers.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

SPR said:


> Yes, I have them, but have been imersed in most of the rest of it and have not really given any of them a fair listen. I have sampled Figaro, Cosi fan tute, and Zauberflote - but not seriously.


Listen with the libretto. It's the only way to enjoy opera to the max unless it's a work you already know inside out. DVD's are also a great way to experience opera, and they nearly always have subtitles.

Cimarosa's *Il Matrimonio Segreto* and Martin I Soler's *Una Cosa Rara* are two operas from Mozart's contemporaries that I like, but start with the Mozart's - he's in a league of his own among opera composers of that era.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Lang said:


> The trouble is, the music is pretty, and prettiness is all that some people get from it. It was actually playing Mozart that made me appreciate the various aspects of his music. And oddly I couldn't actually verbalise what I actually do get from it, which I can do with other composers.


I think that's really interesting, and thanks for saying it. I found a similar thing happened to me with drawing/painting. Seriously attempting doing it myself for a few years led me to conclude that unfortunately I had nothing original to say in that way. But my appreciation of good drawing and painting was enhanced immeasurably by the active involvement, and like you say, it was impossible to explain how. Sometimes, just a single brushstroke by a great painter, or the curvature of a line by a great draughtsman, became a source of deep satisfaction - sometimes almost a thrilling adventure. There's a kind of knowledge that we can acquire that can only be had by _doing_ - or attempting to do - something. So I can readily appreciate that to really 'get' Mozart, it may be necessary to become actively involved, hands-on, with the music, rather than just listen to it.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

jhar26 said:


> Listen with the libretto. It's the only way to enjoy opera to the max unless it's a work you already know inside out.


Just wanted to endorse this excellent advice. With the libretto in front of you, you can get deeply immersed in the drama in a way that just letting the music float over you doesn't permit. It's not an absolute rule - I've just spent two fabulous afternoons getting loosely acquainted with Bellini's _Norma_, on this occasion _not_ following the libretto and with only a slight idea of what's going on, simply because I've discovered the whole thing is just one lyrical glory after another without a dull patch in sight; but that's exceptional.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Elgarian said:


> I've just spent two fabulous afternoons getting loosely acquainted with Bellini's _Norma_, on this occasion _not_ following the libretto and with only a slight idea of what's going on, simply because I've discovered the whole thing is just one lyrical glory after another without a dull patch in sight; but that's exceptional.


Yes - *Norma* is very good. I'm sure that you would also love *La Sonnambula* and *I Puritani*.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

jhar26 said:


> Yes - *Norma* is very good.


That 'Casta Diva' aria ... there are no words to describe that ....



> I'm sure that you would also love *La Sonnambula* and *I Puritani*.


I absolutely believe you. They're already on my list of 'must-gets'!

Just a few years ago, I would have said there was virtually no hope of my ever enjoying opera from this period; and look at what's happening now.


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## nefigah (Aug 23, 2008)

Weston said:


> Anyone wanting to really _get_ Beethoven might try the piano sonatas and Andras Schiff's amazing and reverent lectures on each at this link:
> 
> http://music.guardian.co.uk/classical/page/0,,1943867,00.html


*Thank you* for this, this is awesome!


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