# Looking for modern tonal innovations other than minimalist music



## Zauberberg (Feb 21, 2012)

Please not, this is not another tonal vs atonal debate. I don't dislike atonal music.

There's plenty of topics asking for contemporary tonal music, but it's mostly from people looking to something more standard. I'm interested in something more innovative (or a fresh sound). I have explored the "minimalist" composers, I like some authors a lot, but I'm searching different things (not different trains) now. Inside my ignorance, I tend to think that the only tonal progress is being made in obscure electronic music (boomkat catalogue and stuff), but surely something must going on, some developing in the 'academic music' (I like this definition for current "classical" music) apart from atonal and similar music, right?

Enlighten me, TC users.


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## Mephistopheles (Sep 3, 2012)

It might help if you could give a specific definition of what you mean by "tonal" because there are academic definitions, casual definitions, and few people will mean the same thing. Some use "tonal" to mean reminiscent of the common practice period particularly with regards to traditional harmony, some use it to mean that a piece has a tonal centre, some use it to mean that a piece has discernible melodies, and some use it to mean anything _but_ atonal music (and even then the definition of "atonal" is up for grabs!)! So what did you have in mind?


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## Zauberberg (Feb 21, 2012)

I guess it's "anything _but_ atonal". But I'm a noob without instruction, just mostly an _aficionado_, so it's difficult for me to be concise.


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

Movie soundtracks, but they're so cool even by Modern Standards!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_Episode_I:_The_Phantom_Menace_(soundtrack)

Episode III and Original Trilogy have very nice tracks also.


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## Mephistopheles (Sep 3, 2012)

OK then. I'm just left wondering how contemporary "contemporary" is for you. If I were going to pick one modern composer out of a hat that I've been enjoying lately, it would be Harald Saeverud, who died in 1992. The style of his music is quite variable, but much of it is of a kind of extended-tonality that you may think is reminiscent of 20th century Russian music, but with a Scandinavian flavour. I haven't yet had a proper extensive exploration through his works, but I've been thoroughly taken by his Bassoon Concerto (1964). He wrote a considerable amount for solo piano as well.

I see that some of his symphonies and other pieces are available on YouTube. I wouldn't want to recommend any in particular as I haven't heard them all, but it might give you something to be getting on with.


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## Philip (Mar 22, 2011)

Arsakes said:


> Movie soundtracks, but they're so cool even by Modern Standards!
> Episode III and Original Trilogy have very nice tracks also.


How is that in any way innovative?


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

Philip said:


> How is that in any way innovative?


It attracted my attention for along time.

Isn't it enough that a music composed for a movie astonishes you for a long time? If it had _those_ kind of innovations I wouldn't like it at the first place.
Music shouldn't be something completely Abstract, when you hardly understand something from it.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Zauberberg said:


> I tend to think that the only tonal progress is being made in obscure electronic music (*boomkat catalogue* and stuff),


i'm very curious about that, can you make any example? Specific pieces?
Anyway, i use to think that if a composer has a personal harmonic sound it is yet a "progress". I think that some jazz composers like Wayne Shorter, Andrew Hill, Sun ra, Monk, Herbie Nichols, George Russell or lesser known figures like Lyle Spud Murphy or Clare Fischer and others has done something that is unheard in classical music in terms of harmony (altough often we're talking also of modal harmony).


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## Philip (Mar 22, 2011)

Arsakes said:


> Isn't it enough that a music composed for a movie astonishes you for a long time?


No. I'd qualify that as a psychological loophole on your part.


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## Zauberberg (Feb 21, 2012)

norman bates said:


> i'm very curious about that, can you make any example? Specific pieces?


Just check the website (boomkat.com), it's mainly dedicated to underground electronic music, there's lot of dancey stuff but also experimental music (mostly bordering noise, yeah). But, admittedly, almost everything there takes inspiration on Minimalism music and Electroacoustical music, so maybe it's not so innovative... but the toying with sounds without specific structures makes wonderful new sounds for my ear.


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## Guest (Sep 9, 2012)

Well, I think what you've set up for us is several ill-defined, amorphous targets, some of them moving targets, which we are then invited to hit--all of them, simultaneously--with one bullet.

There are lots of interesting things happening in music in 2012. Nothing that I know anything about, however, matches your parameters. The closest things I can think of are drone minimalism (since you _seem_ to be using the word "minimal" to refer to pattern music like Reich) and perhaps Norgard's infinity series, but both of these "innovations" date from the 1950's, so perhaps do not meet your innovative requirement!

I would very tentatively suggest that "innovation" and "tonal" are not altogether compatible concepts and would more confidently recommend that instead of making something up that you would like and looking for that, look at what's actually being done and enjoy that.

(Obviously, if you really really want "modern tonal innovations other than minimalist music" (which implies that minimalist music is tonally innovative, but is it really?), then you're just gonna have to do it yourself, maybe!)


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## Mephistopheles (Sep 3, 2012)

some guy said:


> I would very tentatively suggest that "innovation" and "tonal" are not altogether compatible concepts and would more confidently recommend that instead of making something up that you would like and looking for that, look at what's actually being done and enjoy that.


That seems unnecessarily restrictive if you don't mind me saying. Tonal music may be incapable of being tonally innovative, but you are in a musical strait jacket if you believe that music is all about tones. Tonality is independent of structure, form, instrumentation, texture, timbre, purpose, context, scale, and other things. Are you suggesting that if a piece cannot offer tonal originality, it therefore must be incapable of innovation in all these other musical areas?

It seems not only reasonable, but absolutely normal for Zauberberg (and anyone else!) to try to formulate a conception of what (s)he would like to hear, and then ask if anyone knows anything that matches the description. That's how ordinary discovery works. The alternative you offer is as though someone came to me for recommendations and I threw a load of 3rd-rate recordings of 3rd-rate Baroque music at them and said, "that's what's on offer, make something of it." Why should Zauberberg be compelled to make something of what's being done now just because it happens to be being done this instant?


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Zauberberg said:


> Just check the website (boomkat.com), it's mainly dedicated to underground electronic music, there's lot of dancey stuff but also experimental music (mostly bordering noise, yeah). But, admittedly, almost everything there takes inspiration on Minimalism music and Electroacoustical music, so maybe it's not so innovative... but the toying with sounds without specific structures makes wonderful new sounds for my ear.


there's too much stuff, seriously it would be better with some example. 
I've listened something of Four tet, Sylvain Chaveau and Biosphere but i don't think it's the kind of stuff you're referring to.
Anyway i agree with Some Guy on Per Norgard. Another example is Peter Schat and his very interesting tone clock theory (and Jenny Mcleod, an australian composer who used it in her compositions), at least in the sense that is not related in any way to atonality (Schoenberg, Webern etc), but it doesn't sound really melodic.


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## Philip (Mar 22, 2011)

This:

Hauschka at NPR: Improvisation





Past tundra - Valgeir Sigurðsson





Daníel Bjarnason - Spindrift


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

Arsakes said:


> Isn't it enough that a music composed for a movie astonishes you for a long time? If it had _those_ kind of innovations I wouldn't like it at the first place.


It sounds like two things are being conflated here: whether you like the music, and whether it is innovative. I can understand the impulse to equate them; given how central the concept of progress is to our current classical music culture (as evidenced by how often people advocate for their favorite composers by showing how they were "ahead of their time"), no one wants to be seen liking something that isn't innovative. But ultimately they're not the same thing, so professing how much you like a piece of music, or how much it astonishes you, is not in itself an argument for its innovation.


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## Zauberberg (Feb 21, 2012)

norman bates said:


> I've listened something of Four tet, Sylvain Chaveau and Biosphere but i don't think it's the kind of stuff you're referring to.


For the record, I'm not saying "I want the classical counterpart of electronic music" (that's why I listen electronic music) or "something that sounds similar to minimalism or electronic". No, I'm awaiting something that my ears haven't listened or imagined. Maybe it doesn't exist, but I don't lose anything for asking.

Now, answering your curiosity, stuff like Oval for example (although glitch music evades this debate), or some drone-y things like Jefre Cantu-Ledesma. The latest album I liked is Forms by Pausal, even though it's not too innovative, but I found it really nice. I'm not saying that this stuff is innovation per se, but it gives me a fresh sensation to my ears and that's the good thing with electronic music, a renewal of the spectrum every year.

I will listen right now the videos


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## Guest (Sep 9, 2012)

Mephistopheles said:


> [Y]ou are in a musical strait jacket if you believe that music is all about tones.


Not sure how you derived this from my post. Indeed, if you've read some of my other posts, you'd know that the emphasis on tones in other people's posts is one of the things that continually puzzles me. And if you knew any of the composers I have mentioned, you'd know that I enjoy music that has few or no synchronous tones in it!



Mephistopheles said:


> Tonality is independent of structure, form, instrumentation, texture, timbre, purpose, context, scale, and other things.


Pretty sure this is just wrong. Forms like the sonata-allegro arise very naturally out of the logic of the tonal system. Instruments that don't make synchronous tones will be relegated to secondary roles like punctuation. Tonality also creates characteristic textures that alternate between consonance and dissonance (which, btw, puts us back in the structure game there). Not sure what you mean by "purpose, context, scale" and no one knows what "the other things" are.



Mephistopheles said:


> Are you suggesting that if a piece cannot offer tonal originality, it therefore must be incapable of innovation in all these other musical areas?


Not at all.



Mephistopheles said:


> It seems not only reasonable, but absolutely normal for Zauberberg (and anyone else!) to try to formulate a conception of what (s)he would like to hear, and then ask if anyone knows anything that matches the description.


Yes. It's one way. And it has a flaw, which I pointed out.



Mephistopheles said:


> That's how ordinary discovery works.


Are you calling my mode of discovery extraordinary? Why thank you. That's exactly how I have always seen it, too.



Mephistopheles said:


> The alternative you offer is as though someone came to me for recommendations and I threw a load of 3rd-rate recordings of 3rd-rate Baroque music at them and said, "that's what's on offer, make something of it." Why should Zauberberg be compelled to make something of what's being done now just because it happens to be being done this instant?


I hestitate to respond to this hideous travesty of my modest suggestion, but I'll just point out that Zauberberg is not being (and indeed cannot be) compelled to do anything of any sort. Far as I know, Zauberberg is free to do whatever he or she wishes.

What's on offer today of today's composers is not all 3rd rate, either. Some of it might even be 5th or 6th. Why, some of it might be 1st or second. It could happen.


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## Mephistopheles (Sep 3, 2012)

some guy said:


> Not sure how you derived this from my post.


It was exaggeration to make a point. 



some guy said:


> Pretty sure this is just wrong. Forms like the sonata-allegro arise very naturally out of the logic of the tonal system.


That may be true, but think just how many forms are represented in the common practice period! It wouldn't be impossible to come up with more. And that says nothing of free, rhapsodic forms, or narrative forms that are representative, like tone poems. If you choose to write tonally, you don't have to write in an established form; and if you choose to write tonally, you can easily create new structures.



some guy said:


> Instruments that don't make synchronous tones will be relegated to secondary roles like punctuation.


Why? If - to use the hyperbole of others which I don't agree with, but for the sake of the point - composers can write "deliberately" unpleasant "noise" music, why should someone who chooses to write tonally also feel themselves restricted to traditionally harmonious instrumentation? If we are including extended tonality (e.g. Stravinsky) in our conception of tonality, there is a _lot_ to work with there.



some guy said:


> Tonality also creates characteristic textures that alternate between consonance and dissonance (which, btw, puts us back in the structure game there).


I'm sure it does, but these can be toyed with like everything else. You appear to be making the assumption that if someone wants to write tonal music, that therefore all their other ideas about musical form will be traditional and regressive also. That's not necessarily true.



some guy said:


> Not sure what you mean by "purpose, context, scale" and no one knows what "the other things" are.


These are other brief considerations, although I admit they can be more to do with novelty pieces than anything systematically interesting. For example, big deals have been made about pieces that last a ridiculously long amount of time (can be done tonally!  ); or subject-matter (e.g. world wars) can give greater impact to a piece; the impressiveness of the ensemble (think Mahler) can make something innovative. Again, there are lots and lots of variables in composition, and tonality does not tie them all down.



some guy said:


> I hestitate to respond to this hideous travesty of my modest suggestion, but I'll just point out that Zauberberg is not being (and indeed cannot be) compelled to do anything of any sort. Far as I know, Zauberberg is free to do whatever he or she wishes.


Not compelled, no. But unhelpfully told to just listen and like.



some guy said:


> What's on offer today of today's composers is not all 3rd rate, either. Some of it might even be 5th or 6th. Why, some of it might be 1st or second. It could happen.


Just for clarity, I didn't mean to suggest that music written in 2012 is 3rd-rate. Lots of it is incredibly interesting and worthy of attention. My point is that you cannot just select a random sample of music and expect yourself to enjoy it "just because". My example was meant to demonstrate that it's not unlikely that your random sample will be very difficult to enjoy, while simultaneously giving you an unfortunately false perception of similar music. Discovery needs to be wary of limits, but it also cannot be blindly limitless.


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## Philip (Mar 22, 2011)

So... what did you think of the pieces? Did you find anything else?


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## Zauberberg (Feb 21, 2012)

Didn't like it too much, to be honest. The only composer here mentioned that got my attention was Per Norgard. Everything else not so much, but well, that's life!

Listening these days to laraaji. Maybe I need more eastern influenced music, who knows.


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## etkearne (Sep 28, 2012)

Read the text "The Geometry of Music" to learn of the latest and greatest tonal innovations, of which there are many! It is technical, but for all I know, you may have a doctorate in Music Composition, so I will leave the book open to you. It is great IMO and has influenced my composition immensely. 

When I post some of my works, you should check them out on here, because I write music that is mostly tonal but stretches tonality in many interesting directions without breaking down (unless I have a passage where I desire dodeca-music!) and none of it is minimalism nor is any of it akin to the music of the past IMO.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

My impression from your 1st post is that you are targeting the 'post-modern' composers. subsequent posts obnubilate that sense. So... I dunno what you are looking for.

Enescu was an early post-modern, but that takes you back 90 years or so.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Sounds like neo-romanticism is what you want.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

neoshredder said:


> Sounds like neo-romanticism is what you want.


I don't know what that is. Please name a composer.


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## Praeludium (Oct 9, 2011)

What about Adès ? Try his "O Albion" for instance. Not sure how innovative it is. It depends what you call innovative


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Hilltroll72 said:


> I don't know what that is. Please name a composer.


Takashi Yoshimatsu http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takashi_Yoshimatsu


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Zauberberg said:


> ...
> There's plenty of topics asking for contemporary tonal music, but it's mostly from people looking to something more standard. I'm interested in something more innovative (or a fresh sound). I have explored the "minimalist" composers, I like some authors a lot, but I'm searching different things (not different trains) now. Inside my ignorance, I tend to think that the only tonal progress is being made in obscure electronic music (boomkat catalogue and stuff), but surely something must going on, some developing in the 'academic music' (I like this definition for current "classical" music) apart from atonal and similar music, right?
> 
> ....


Australian *Peter Sculthorpe *is your man. He is not a fan of serialism, and never really was interested in going 'all the way' with atonality. However he did innovate in sonority. Also in terms of incorporating things like Australian Aboriginal tribal music and the music of the Asia-Pacific region into his music. His biggest influences from Europe where Varese and Messiaen, and he also adapted elements of the innovations of John Cage. But his sound is pretty unique.

I did a thread on him here: http://www.talkclassical.com/5674-peter-sculthorpe.html

The areas he innovated where similar to Penderecki. They where doing similar things in the 1960's, but they did not know about eachother's work. From the 1960's to the 1970's, Sculthorpe worked largely in a more kind of experimental style. From the 1980's onwards, he embraced more traditional things like unbroken melody and counterpoint. Yet he was never a fan of rehashing the past (he consciously avoided things like the three B's).

A favourite work of mine by him is Mangrove. Here, he uses elements of Japanese melody, but he mixes it with a kind of drone like sound, reminscent of Australian Aboriginal wind instrument, the didgeridu.

Another kind of nature themed work is Kakadu. This uses an Aboriginal song from Northern Australia that Sculthorpe heard in the Australian national film and sound archives, recorded before 1945. Its a sad kind of lament, and it also appears in his _From Kakadu _for guitar solo. I can't help but see this as not only a portrait of the landscape up there, but also a kind of comment on how white colonialism kind of affected Aboriginal culture badly. This song is no longer a living thing, its now a museum piece. Sculthorpe is trying to resurrect that in some ways. He was among the first of our composers to respect and deal with Aboriginal culture.

ANother composer like this is Barry Conyngham, who studied under Sculthorpe and also with Takemitsu. I don't know if he's on youtube but he's another composer who focussed more in pushing sonority itself rather than being too concerned about atonality, serialism, that kind of thing.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

A lot of people like the choral works of the relatively young Eric Whitacre. He is known for a neo-romantic/neo-renaissance style. It may not sound innovative to you, but consider that Whitacre has become very mainstream and that before Whitacre, there wasn't any music that sounded quite like this. Its characterized by a lot of held minor seconds that give it this sad sound all around, and that's a big reason why so many people like him so much. He is certainly a top notch choral composer in that his writing often seems to fit well with the text in his Whitacre way.

Here is a piece very typical of his:





And another that seems to be quite popular:





My choir is currently working on this piece, which is more conservative for Whitacre.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

I wonder, Zauberberg, if you have heard of microtone music and/or quartertone music?


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## Zauberberg (Feb 21, 2012)

Lukecash12 said:


> I wonder, Zauberberg, if you have heard of microtone music and/or quartertone music?


I remember reading about, and watched some youtubes. But I didn't explore anymore, (it happens frequently to me, "this is interesting, I should look for more" and then "nah"). So yeah, throw some recommendations here.

*Sid James*, I heard Sculthorpe before but it was something more conventional. Mangrove was really interesting, really. I will check more.


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## lukecubed (Nov 27, 2011)

I have nothing to add to this thread other than that _Zauberberg_ is a great Gas album. Although, they were all great.

Gas > most minimalism


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*George Lloyd*

I am familiar with everyone who has been already mentioned. I am trying to think of somebody new.

Some may disagree but one of the composers I was thinking of was the English Composer George Lloyd. Although he is very conventional he does some interesting things with his harmonies. For me his most interesting work is the "First Movement" of he _Seventh Symphony_.


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## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)




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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*Godzilla Eats Las Vegas*

In response to the above you will have to view Eric Whitacre's _Godzilla Eats Las Vegas_. (Note: Whitacre was mentioned above and all you thought he did was choral music.) ut:










Link to Whitacre site about piece:

http://ericwhitacre.com/music-catalog/wind-symphony/godzilla-eats-las-vegas

(Note: Our band played this piece a few years ago and it was a blast. We are going to play it again this spring.)


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Zauberberg said:


> ...
> *Sid James*, I heard Sculthorpe before but it was something more conventional. Mangrove was really interesting, really. I will check more.


Glad to hear it. You might also like to check out another Australian, Nigel Westlake. I did a post on him at the http://www.talkclassical.com/5632-australian-composers-4.html#post269071 thread. He is younger than Sculthorpe - the next generation - and he has a background in rock, which can be heard in his music.

Maybe just check out that thread generally. Others like that are Carl Vine and Richard Mills.

Many post-1945 Australian composers have tended not to be much interested in trends overseas, or not jumping on bandwagons as was the case in Europe and USA before. The reason is that the latest trends came to us so late (in the 1960's, with Sculthorpe's generation) that by then, our composers where more interested in fashioning their own vision, not simply rehashing things that already existed overseas. Of course, they knew the latest stuff to a high level. Sculthorpe taught music at Sydney Conservatorium, he taught the latest things (including serialism) and was the first to teach a subject about native music from Australia and the Asia-Pacific region. So new things where happening here, but it was not an exact replica of what was going on in the big centres of music. So atonality and serialism did not bypass us, its just that by the time we got to know about it, other innovations where already happening, and that's what people like Sculthorpe where interested in much more, doing new and interesting things with their own musical voices.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Hans Zimmer.


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## Jimm (Jun 29, 2012)

pantonality is one of the big ones, in terms of revolutionizing and expanding the harmonic/psychological time perspective .. we're still dealing with tonality here but the progressions and changes are much more frequent and depending on the intervallic relationships and texture applied vary quite a bit in terms of relative polarities.


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