# Simon Rattle and St. John's Passion



## Vox Gabrieli

When Rattle performed this piece, he went against the tradition of playing it in the form of a choir, and instructed the performers to "act" it out in a way that was against the belief of so many people. This caused a lot of controversy among the audience, and the players.

_"It is not theatre. It is a prayer, a meditation,"_

- Rattle

What does TC think? Should this stay in it's traditional, non-operatic form, or is the beauty in the interpretation?


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## Pugg

What's next, adding singing text to ballet performance, the man should retire, like now.


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## Bruckner Anton

Although the work contains operatic features, it does not require the performers to really act it out.


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## Pugg

Bruckner Anton said:


> Although the work contains operatic features, it does not require the performers to really act it out.


It's a bloody shame.


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## Animal the Drummer

Typical Rattle. He can never resist the temptation to tinker with what he's performing in some way, rather than let the music speak for itself.


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## DavidA

I haven't seen Rattles but I did see an ENO production of the St John which was semi-staged and very powerful. It depends how it is done.


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## jegreenwood

Was it similar to this?

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/10/27/atonement-2


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## Vox Gabrieli

I used to have some respect for the old maestro, I quite like his earlier interpretations of things. That is, until I saw him force the french horns to dress up in ridiculous cowboy hats and play Indiana Jones.

*His sanity is fading!*


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## Becca

Richard Macduff said:


> I used to have some respect for the old maestro, I quite like his earlier interpretations of things. That is, until I saw him force the french horns to dress up in ridiculous cowboy hats and play Indiana Jones.
> 
> *His sanity is fading!*


I hate to tell you this but when it comes to the horn section, they are a force of their own and even Simon knows better than to try to control them.

View attachment 93584
View attachment 93585


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## Pugg

jegreenwood said:


> Was it similar to this?
> 
> http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/10/27/atonement-2


Giving one the creeps by just looking . :devil:


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## Vox Gabrieli

Becca said:


> I hate to tell you this but when it comes to the horn section, they are a force of their own and even Simon knows better than to try to control them.
> 
> View attachment 93584
> View attachment 93585


I hope to god that pun was intended. :lol:


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## Marc

In 1994 there was already a dramatized version of the Matthäus-Passion, directed by Jonathan Miller, conducted by Paul Goodwin. It was broadcasted on BBC. And Miller & Goodwin probably weren't the first who experienced with Bach's passions this way.

IMO, there are no rules of how to perform these pieces. Originally, passions like these were the main part of a Lutheran service on Good Friday, attended by regular churchgoers. Is a Matthäus Passion performed in a concert hall on October the 8th allowed? I won't be the judge on that.

Personally, I don't need the dramatized visual add-ons. The Miller/Goodwin performance already gave me the creeps, and I wasn't all that fond of the musical performance either. 
Somehow I experience this music as music for the ear, and for the soul (whatever that may be), but not for the eye. The musical story in itself is already (more than) strong enough.

For those who like it though: please do!


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## Vaneyes

Poll fodder, at the very least, Sir Simon's retirement.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

DavidA said:


> I haven't seen Rattles but I did see an ENO production of the St John which was semi-staged and very powerful.


I saw that production, by Deborah Warner, and it was indeed very effective. I particularly liked that the audience were invited to participate in some of the key chorales, which made it all the more involving.


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## AClockworkOrange

I'm no Rattle cheerleader - his interpretations vary from piece to piece for me - but these calls for retirement are somewhat unwarranted to say the least. I would say that (subjectively) his successes outweigh his negatives.

As for blaming him for an orchestras sense of humour - they are adults and as Becca notes, have a strong personality and a sense of humour.

How many Conductors draw comments telling them to retire because an interpretation doesn't mesh with that listener? Very few that I have seen but it seems to be fashionable to have to bash Rattle 

The fact that he is prepared to try something different is worth some respect, whether it works or not. Like anything, if it is done right it could be a very effective and powerful performance. It could be that it draws some people further in to the music or perhaps get people thinking. It certainly has people talking.

If it runs against someone's tastes, this is just one performance - give it a miss. There are countless performances of 'traditional' concert settings available in performance, on CD and DVD. This interpretation doesn't detract from them, it simply offers an alternative perspective on the presentation of the music.

There is more than than enough room for both interpretations and both will find an audience.


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## JosefinaHW

Richard Macduff said:


> When Rattle performed this piece, he went against the tradition of playing it in the form of a choir, and instructed the performers to "act" it out in a way that was against the belief of so many people. This caused a lot of controversy among the audience, and the players.
> 
> _"It is not theatre. It is a prayer, a meditation,"_
> 
> - Rattle
> 
> What does TC think? Should this stay in it's traditional, non-operatic form, or is the beauty in the interpretation?


Simon Rattle, Peter Sellars and Simon Halsey worked together with all the musicians to produce what they called a "ritualizaton" of both the St. John and St. Matthew Passion (two performances in the archive; one released on DVD and Blu-Ray). These performances were extraordinary! They were powerful, insightful, touching, beautiful, thought-provoking. I am thrilled that everyone did come together to perform and record them.

Many interviews were also recorded and can be watched when you purchase a ticket to the DigitalConcertHall or buy the DVD/Blu-Ray.

The ritualizations strongly convey the contemporaneity of the works: the Evangelist presents what is written in the Scriptures and is understood by Bach to be the "fact"/basic facts of salvation history; one of the chorus represents the voice of the entire church--from the beginning of time through the life of Jesus; the second chorus is the current day church/the church at this moment in time; the individual arias are the voice of each individual believer. All of salvation history thus far is portrayed and the believing "listener" enters the passion event in an extremely powerful way by relating themselves to the choruses, the Evangelist and the individual arias. One might have had one particular idea in mind about the moments of Holy Week as conveyed by the Scriptures and then you watch two performers/actors cast a completely different light on an episode and one can have a life-transforming experience. For me, Magdalena Kozena and Mark Padmore were extraordinary in this sense of conveying what each individual believer goes through in his/her life. Their performance of _Konen, Tranen meiner Wagen _was an epiphany for me (and apparently some of the performers). That one aria was worth a hundred times the cost of an annual subscription.

For me, there isn't an either or re/ traditional performance practice vs. a ritualization; I regularly listen to parts from four different performances--they all complement one another and speak to me in different ways at different times.


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## Vox Gabrieli

JosefinaHW said:


> Simon Rattle, Peter Sellars and Simon Halsey worked together with all the musicians to produce what they called a "ritualizaton" of both the St. John and St. Matthew Passion (two performances in the archive; one released on DVD and Blu-Ray). These performances were extraordinary! They were powerful, insightful, touching, beautiful, thought-provoking. I am thrilled that everyone did come together to perform and record them.
> 
> Many interviews were also recorded and can be watched when you purchase a ticket to the DigitalConcertHall or buy the DVD/Blu-Ray.


I concur, and thanks for the interviews! That will make a nice weekend activity.


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## Vox Gabrieli

Here is a documentary that talks about St. Johns Passion, I pulled from YouTube.





I found it very inspiring as an aspiring performer.


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