# Progressive Rap / Hip-Hop



## chipia (Apr 22, 2021)

Hi,

Lately I've wondered if there is such a thing as "Progressive Hip-Hop", as there is Progressive Rock.

What I mean is Rap/Hip-Hop with long and intricate song structures, complex harmonic progressions and complex time signatures / rhythms.

Are there any such artists you can recommend?


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

It so happens that there IS a subgenre called *Progressive Rap* or *Progressive Hip Hop*, but the "progressive" part seems more reflective of the complexity and depth of the _*lyrics*_.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rap

Evidently it can include other aspects of the production: _*"Productions in the genre often take on avant-garde approaches and wide-ranging influences, such as jazz, rock, and soul, having included the works of De La Soul, Fugees, Outkast, Kanye West, and Kendrick Lamar. The music of such acts, especially in the 21st century, has impacted the mainstream sensibilities of hip hop while countering racist stereotypes prevalent in Western popular culture."*_


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

Generally complexity in hip-hop will either be in highly unusual production techniques, or via poetic techniques (including things like rhyme schemes, and the depth of the lyrics itself).

Hip-hop is a descendent of a dance music scene, and for obvious reasons, this type of music tends not to favor heavy shifts in time signature or tempo.


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## chipia (Apr 22, 2021)

fbjim said:


> Generally complexity in hip-hop will either be in highly unusual production techniques, or via poetic techniques (including things like rhyme schemes, and the depth of the lyrics itself).
> 
> Hip-hop is a descendent of a dance music scene, and for obvious reasons, this type of music tends not to favor heavy shifts in time signature or tempo.


I'm aware of hip-hops origins but I don't think musicians are obliged to strictly stick to their roots. I thought there may be more creative artists who try to expand the musical language.
After all Jazz and Rock'nRoll also used to be dance music.

In my opinion rap has much more potential than what most artists actually do.


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

chipia said:


> What I mean is Rap/Hip-Hop with long and intricate song structures, complex harmonic progressions and complex time signatures / rhythms.


Be careful with trying to map "progressive" features derived from classical music onto hip-hop. Rap songs rarely feature "complex harmonic progressions," but that doesn't mean they aren't progressive in other ways.



chipia said:


> In my opinion rap has much more potential than what most artists actually do.


Bold claim. I don't know how familiar you are with hip-hop, but judging from your posts you seem relatively new to it. Someone who is equally new to classical music - perhaps they've heard only a symphony or two - might feel similarly (that the genre has more potential than composers tend to exploit in their music). It would be interesting to see if your thoughts on this change as you get to know the genre better. My guess/hope is that they will.

But to answer you question, the late MF Doom is often jokingly referred to as "your favorite rapper's favorite rapper." You might want to start with him, specifically the albums _Madvillainy_ and _Mm.. Food_.


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Dalek


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Also some jazz crossover

Roy Hargrove and Erykah Badu


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Agree that some of the criteria - complex harmonic progressions and complex time signatures / rhythms - are bogus

Hip hop came from Funk - and like funk it is inherently polyrhythmic

If you have a complex groove - like classic James Brown, how is, say a 5/4 time signature more complex? Is clave a 'complex time signature'? Meter is not an African rhythmic concept, there is a cycle of beats that forms an underlying structure for a polyrhythm

you also dont have functional harmony, its groove and vamps with often complex textures so not sure why the criteria of 'complex harmonic progressions' makes sense


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## chipia (Apr 22, 2021)

Bwv 1080 said:


> you also dont have functional harmony, its groove and vamps with often complex textures so not sure why the criteria of 'complex harmonic progressions' makes sense


But why does music have to stay the same? Can't it evolve forwards? Rock was originally also about simple 3-chord progressions, but that didn't prevent later bands like the beatles from making more involved harmonies, not to mention prog rock and jazz-rock

Also I wouldn't call most hiphop grooves "complex" given that they are most of the time just repeated without much change.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

chipia said:


> But why does music have to stay the same? Can't it evolve forwards? Rock was originally also about simple 3-chord progressions, but that didn't prevent later bands like the beatles from making more involved harmonies, not to mention prog rock and jazz-rock
> 
> Also I wouldn't call most hiphop grooves "complex" given that they are most of the time just repeated without much change.


Seems to me, if rap or hip hop took on too many of the attributes that make up prog, it may make it unrecognizable as rap of hip hop.

But then, I guess the same things can be said about some subgenres of prog, like quite a bit of avant-prog sounds more similar to contemporary classical ensembles, than any sort of rock, to me.

But then, there is, jazz pianist Andrew Milne (part of the "M-Base collective" school of jazz), and his group, Dapp Theory. His stuff tends to be pretty complex, with rap like vocals. Not being a rap fan, I am in no place to know if this would be considered rap or not.

Either way, this band is loaded with incredible musicians.


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