# Bruckner's fifth



## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

I neglected it for too long. What an amazing piece of music an top of my favourite Bruckner symphonies for the time being. 

Overall I've been pretty much addicted to his music for over 18 months.


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## Cygnenoir (Dec 21, 2011)

Yeah, the 5th is a masterpiece, together with the 8th and 9th. Bruckner wrote better scherzos than Mahler, but I think the latter wrote better symphonies overall.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

berghansson said:


> Yeah, the 5th is a masterpiece, together with the 8th and 9th. Bruckner wrote better scherzos than Mahler, but I think the latter wrote better symphonies overall.


I've always felt the Scherzo of Bruckner's Fifth is its one (rather minor) weakness. The full da capo repeat after the rather short (if charming) trio makes the whole thing feel overlong and a little repetitive.

But yes, Bruckner's Fifth is (along with the other two listed above) one of his three symphonies that are successful in their entirety. The finale does not suffer at all in comparison with the other movements, each of which is excellent, and the whole work is interconnected with cyclical motifs in a completely organic fashion.


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## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

I think the 5th was a key moment for Bruckner, because while/after composing it, he revised nos. 3 and 4 as well and took out some of their wilder, edgier elements. To my ears, he tamed, streamlined them, that is, made them fit the almost classicist approach of the 5th. Personally, I think he did well in doing so.

But not only that, I think working on the 5th Bruckner found his true self, musically speaking. From the 5th onwards, he never felt the urge or the need to revise his symphonies once they were done. Hence no "versions problem" with nos. 5, 6 and 7. (He did revise the 8th, but that's because he was forced to do it.)

My first encounter with the 5th was the Thielemann recording with the Munich Philharmonic. He's one of the conductors who play out the Adagio to its full effect, streching it to 20 minutes and proving that it can be on par with the Adagios of nos. 7, 8 and 9.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Andreas said:


> But not only that, I think working on the 5th Bruckner found his true self, musically speaking. From the 5th onwards, he never felt the urge or the need to revise his symphonies once they were done. Hence no "versions problem" with nos. 5, 6 and 7. (He did revise the 8th, but that's because he was forced to do it.)


False. He did revise the Fifth and Seventh, the former before the first performance (as was the case for the Third and Fourth, as well as the Eighth) and the latter after. The difference is that the original versions have not survived, because the changes were entered directly into the manuscript copies.

I agree that the Fourth benefited from the revision, but the Third ended up mangled.


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

Possibly sticking my neck out here as someone who does struggle with Bruckner but would like to appreciate him more
My problem is he seems a bit 'long winded' at times, everything seeming to take an age to develop. It lacks that spontaneous quality to me. 
However I do recognise he is viewed as a great composer and I would like to try him again so can anyone recommend a version of this symphony as it is not one I have listened to for many years (only have the 7th with Karajan)
Any other Bruckner recommendations welcome


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bruckner's Fifth. You might want to try Christoph von Dohnanyi leading the Cleveland Orchestra. One CD. Excellent performance.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Haydn man said:


> Possibly sticking my neck out here as someone who does struggle with Bruckner but would like to appreciate him more
> My problem is he seems a bit 'long winded' at times, everything seeming to take an age to develop. It lacks that spontaneous quality to me.


You are correct. Bruckner is among the most deliberate and least spontaneous of all composers. That said, although his music can be slow-moving, there is always a reason for everything in a given movement. His structures are as solid as anything can be.



Haydn man said:


> However I do recognise he is viewed as a great composer and I would like to try him again so can anyone recommend a version of this symphony as it is not one I have listened to for many years (only have the 7th with Karajan)
> Any other Bruckner recommendations welcome


The Fifth is quite a characteristic work. Its orchestration is not very pretty, its themes are decidedly angular at times, and its juxtapositions of different moods and tonalities are as stark as they come. That said, in the right performance, the structure, which is perfectly solid, should come through as one of the great Romantic (or Late Romantic, if you prefer) symphonies.

I'm fond of Welser-Most on EMI conducting the London Philharmonic. Thielemann on Deutsche Grammophon with the VPO is very well-regarded as well.

As for other Bruckner, most seem to find the Fourth and the Seventh the most immediately appealing of his symphonies, but they both suffer from finales that aren't up to the quality of the rest of the work. With that caveat, I'd recommend them.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Proms 1971 :tiphat:
View attachment 34115


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Mahlerian, what do you think of the Barenboim recordings of Bruckner? It is the only cycle I have at present, but would like to get hold of the Karajan, Furtwangler and Wand versions at some point.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

beetzart said:


> Mahlerian, what do you think of the Barenboim recordings of Bruckner? It is the only cycle I have at present, but would like to get hold of the Karajan, Furtwangler and Wand versions at some point.


I'm not very familiar with them to be honest. I think highly of Furtwangler (although the versions he uses are corrupted) and Wand, and I've enjoyed Karajan's Bruckner at times (like his Fourth).


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

My University's orchestra is going to perform Bruckner 5 in March, and I'm excited to get to see it! My first Bruckner symphony live!

I already like what Bruckner I've heard (the 4th and 7th symphonies), so know I will like this one a lot more than Mahler.


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## maestro267 (Jul 25, 2009)

An incredibly powerful piece. I feel like the end of the finale has every brass instrument in the world blazing out that glorious chorale.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I distinctly remember my thoughts when listening to the beginning of Bruckner 5 for the first time. On this occasion I decided to listen without reading the sleevenotes first. Also, I hadn't heard anything by Bruckner before as this was one of my 'whim' purchases made near the beginning of my getting into classical music. 

So, the subdued introduction with the pizzicato strings then the germ begins to develop before fading into silence. 'Hmm...fairly unusual...', thought I. But before I had the chance to scratch my head wondering how the movement can re-ignite I'm metaphorically knocked off my feet by that massive brass fanfare (as I recall, I muttered 'bloody hell...' - or something ending in 'hell', anyway) and then those gargantuan building blocks are slowly but remorselessly moved into place. I was pretty much transfixed after that. Many think the 5th isn't the best place to start and I can appreciate why but it certainly worked for me.


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## Guest (Feb 2, 2014)

Haydn man said:


> [...] However I do recognise he is viewed as a great composer and I would like to try him again so can anyone recommend a version of this symphony as it is not one I have listened to for many years (only have the 7th with Karajan)[...]


One that stands out for me is Dennis Russell Davies and the Bruckner Orchester Linz (2nd version from 1878). A bit 'rough and ready' and not as polished perhaps as the usual suspects, but it presses all the right buttons for me.


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## revdrdave (Jan 8, 2014)

Vaneyes said:


> Proms 1971 :tiphat:
> View attachment 34115


Yes. My first exposure to the Fifth was in a truncated verizon by Hans Knappertsbusch on an old London Stereo Treasury recording. Then I discovered Horenstein and realized how magnificent a piece the Fifth really was.


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## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> I think highly of Furtwangler *(although the versions he uses are corrupted)* and Wand, and I've enjoyed Karajan's Bruckner at times (like his Fourth).


That phrasing is rather funny :lol:

The fifth's great.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Without hesitation, I'll nominate *Eugen Jochum* with the *Concertgebouw Orchestra* (the last one he made on December 4th, 1986). It's re-issued (then deleted) by Tahra, but it still can be purchased (with a more hefty price I regret to report). Karajan with the Berlin Philharmonic is a close runner-up.

Like Mahlerian, I too found Welser-Most conducting the London Philharmonic on EMI to be rather superb. Horenstein is quite up there also, even though his orchestra sounds a tad scrappy in places.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

Jochum's one with the Bayerischen Rundfunks from his DG box is majestic. Delivered perfectly. Celibidache's video one with the Munchner in 1985 is good too. 

I think this symphony has the weirdest scherzo in the repertoire. It's like some unfunny joke. In fact it's one of the strangest symphonies in the repertoire. It somehow makes profound cosmic sense, and yet also makes no sense at all. The first movement seems to be his most stop-starty. Tintner called it his most intellectual symphony, and Furtwangler called the finale the greatest in the repertoire, and yet it always gives me the impression of being written by someone with a few screws loose, in a way that none of the other Bruckner symphonies do (the 3rd has its moments).


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Bruckner is probably my most favored composer and his Fifth is my favorite among his symphonies. I've owned or heard 30 or 35 versions. Some I like best aren't well-known and many that are famous are in my opinion flops. Here is a listmania list I made of 25 of them back when Amazon supported such things:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/richpub/listmania/fullview/R19358NHGV7MDD/cm_lm_byauthor_title_full


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

It took me a lot longer to get into the 5th than the 4th, 7th and 9th. The 8th took a little while, but not as long as the 5th.

I think of it as Bruckner's most harmonically complex symphony, apart from maybe the 6th but that one doesn't really appeal to me for some reason. 

Furtwangler's 1942 recording with the Berliner Philharmoniker is the one I enjoy the most but I can't claim to have heard more than half a dozen versions. A very good sounding recording for the period as well, considering that it is a live recording. Also a very quiet audience unless it's a magnetophonkonzert but I would have thought that it was recorded too early in the war for that to have been the case unless the date is wrong. A lot of the records from that period are patchy at best.

In any case, recommended to those who have not heard it and don't mind mono sound.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

larold said:


> Bruckner is probably my most favored composer and his Fifth is my favorite among his symphonies. I've owned or heard 30 or 35 versions. Some I like best aren't well-known and many that are famous are in my opinion flops. Here is a listmania list I made of 25 of them back when Amazon supported such things:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/richpub/listmania/fullview/R19358NHGV7MDD/cm_lm_byauthor_title_full


Thank you for the link. Yes, the 5th never fails to give me goosebumps during the last 5 minutes of the last movement.


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## Guest (Jun 17, 2018)

chill782002 said:


> It took me a lot longer to get into the 5th than the 4th, 7th and 9th. The 8th took a little while, but not as long as the 5th.
> 
> I think of it as Bruckner's most harmonically complex symphony, apart from maybe the 6th but that one doesn't really appeal to me for some reason.
> 
> ...


mmmm I am curious to listen to Furtwängler's 1942 rendition. I've been interested in historical recordings lately.

Also, I am fond of Jochum's recordings.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Orfeo said:


> Without hesitation, I'll nominate *Eugen Jochum* with the *Concertgebouw Orchestra* (the last one he made on December 4th, 1986). It's re-issued (then deleted) by Tahra, but it still can be purchased (with a more hefty price I regret to report). Karajan with the Berlin Philharmonic is a close runner-up.


It's $318.37 on Amazon. Ouch! Here's a link to YouTube.


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## merlinus (Apr 12, 2014)

larold said:


> Bruckner is probably my most favored composer and his Fifth is my favorite among his symphonies. I've owned or heard 30 or 35 versions. Some I like best aren't well-known and many that are famous are in my opinion flops. Here is a listmania list I made of 25 of them back when Amazon supported such things:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/richpub/listmania/fullview/R19358NHGV7MDD/cm_lm_byauthor_title_full


Very interesting list. Thanks. I concur with almost all of your judgments for the ones I have heard.

For me, SQ in Bruckner is vital to enjoyment of the amazing music, so Furtwangler does not do it.

Kurt Eichhorn with Linz is one of the best, and so is the last one Jochum did with RCO in 1986, originally on Tahra (I have a lossless flac version).

Of more recent versions, I like van Zweden, with excellent sound on SACD.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Luckily I bought Jochum's with the Concertgebouw Orchestra when it was a sensible price. I also enjoy Celibidache's Munich recording (and don't get why so many find its slow speeds killing it rather than bringing it to life). The 5th is one of my favourites among Bruckner's symphonies.


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## Kollwitz (Jun 10, 2018)

The fifth is possibly my favourite work. As a non-musician, Benjamin Zander's discussion of the symphony was really helpful in understanding it. The combination of analysis with examples and general background really brought the work to life and presents Bruckner as an earthier and more human figure than he's sometimes described. I'd really recommend it to anyone beginning to get to know the 5th or Bruckner in general. I also really like Zander's recording of the symphony itself. Although it perhaps lacks the weight of some other recordings, his approach works really well. In particular, the return of the brass chorale in the coda is, for me, even more overwhelming because it's not announced by the broadening of the tempo in the way that it is in some recordings.

Appreciate the link to Jochum's live Concertgebouw recording on youtube - have been desperate to listen to it for a while but baulked at the price! Thanks manxfeeder.

Furtwangler and Celibidache are both very enjoyable in their different ways, though if I could only keep one recording I'd have something more orthodox like Wand with the NDR.


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## PeterFromLA (Jul 22, 2011)

I remember buying the complete Staatskapelle Dresden/Jochum set on EMI just to own Jochum's version of the Fifth. This recording is, for me, grand perfection. The Adagio is incredibly moving, though I'm never sure as I listen whether it is a love song or an orchestrated prayer. Regardless, it's thrilling every time.


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