# Round 2: Baritones:O du mein holder. Grandforte, Hagegard, London, Kipnis



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)




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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Hagegard has the lightest, most lyrical voice here, but I thought it the most suited to this piece and I found him the most affecting of the four. I was momentarily shaken from my choice when Kipnis started singing. It's such a glorious voice, who could not be affected by the sound he makes, but I'm remaining true to my original choice, who drew me in with his beautiful legato. His singing is full of a resigned sadness without being too overtly emotional, as in London's version.

Granforte affected me less than the others.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

This ended up being harder than I expected. In ascending order:

London is an also-ran in this company. It's not terrible, but he sounds uncomfortable scaling back his large and often ungainly voice to fit the music, although his intonation is better than it usually was.

I love Kipnis' singing as sheer vocalism, but it's just the wrong voice for the music.

There's a long tradition of Italian baritones singing this aria, and Granforte is among the best of them, but in the end, he's a little too forthright and extrovert, particularly in the last half.

That leaves Hagegard. Vocally, he is probably the least well endowed (but is among my favorite baritones), with a pretty slender but beautiful voice, but his more gentle, lyrical treatment is exactly what the music needs.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Hagegard has the prettiest voice otherwise they all were splendid with Kipnis a close second.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I feel a sense of accomplishment that I agreed with the two of you about Hagegard.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I have to agree with general consensus that Hagegaard's is the sort of voice that this music wants, and that he does well with the piece. The one thing I miss which singers in earlier days provided naturally is portamento. It matters, and its lack keeps Hagegaard from challenging the singers we heard in the first match. Kipnis does provide it, but he's a bass and sounds out of character, as well as slightly taxed by the tessitura. London, too, is out of his element; I kept expecting him to start snarling about Alberich, or pleading with Titurel. That leaves Granforte, whom I was slightly surprised to find myself enjoying greatly. This piece sounds less odd in Italian than Wagner often does, and only at the end does Granforte let me down, when the bottom seems to fall out of his voice in an effort at a diminuendo. 

With a nod toward Granforte, I'll go with Hagegaard.

P.S. A question for language experts or Swedes: can the little diacritical mark over the second "a" in "Hagegaard" be represented by a double "a," as I've done?


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

The little signs over the “a” transforms it into an “o” hagegourd. There’s also one over the “a” in Hakan, in which case it’s pronounced Hokan or similar (it’s hard to actually transliterate, one would have to hear it in Swedish. 

I hope I transliterated it correctly so the phonetics are close.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MAS said:


> The little signs over the "a" transforms it into an "o" hagegourd. There's also one over the "a" in Hakan, in which case it's pronounced Hokan or similar (it's hard to actually transliterate, one would have to hear it in Swedish.
> 
> I hope I transliterated it correctly so the phonetics are close.


I know what it does to the sound of the letter. I was wondering about alternative orthographies, such as the "ae" and "ue" used in German in place of the umlaut. I've seen "aa" in Scandinavian languages - the masculine name "Aage" is an example I'm familiar with - but I'm not sure whether it can be used in Swedish specifically.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I know what it does to the sound of the letter. I was wondering about alternative orthographies, such as the "ae" and "ue" used in German in place of the umlaut. I've seen "aa" in Scandinavian languages - the masculine name "Aage" is an example I'm familiar with - but I'm not sure whether it can be used in Swedish specifically.


I don't know, but it's an interesting question. Do the Germans themselves use the alternative to the umlaut?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MAS said:


> I don't know, but it's an interesting question. Do the Germans themselves use the alternative to the umlaut?


Don't know that either. I suspect they originated the practice, perhaps when printing equipment didn't have diacritical marks. It's amazing how difficult it can be to get what you'd think was basic information on our miraculous internet. I just looked up diacritical marks on Wiki, and it says " if an å character is unavailable, some Scandinavian languages allow the substitution of a doubled a." But Wiki can't be bothered to tell us which ones, despite there being only a few Scandinavian languages. I ask Google the direct question "which Scandinavian languages use double a," and every imaginable thing comes up except an answer to that question.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

MAS said:


> I don't know, but it's an interesting question. Do the Germans themselves use the alternative to the umlaut?


In English speaking countries, I've often seen an "e" after the vowel to indicate its pronunciation, e.g. Goetterdaemmerung.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

While we're on this subject, are there diacritical marks hidden somewhere in the esoteric functions of personal computers? There are certainly none on the keyboard of my computer, and if I want to use them I have to copy and paste.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> While we're on this subject, are there diacritical marks hidden somewhere in the esoteric functions of personal computers? There are certainly none on the keyboard of my computer, and if I want to use them I have to copy and paste.


There are codes that you can use for diacriticals; here's a site for German ones:

https://altcodeunicode.com/alt-codes-for-german-letters-with-accents-or-diacritics/


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> While we're on this subject, are there diacritical marks hidden somewhere in the esoteric functions of personal computers? There are certainly none on the keyboard of my computer, and if I want to use them I have to copy and paste.


The iPad has language options and the virtual keyboards contain separate letters with diacritical glyphs, such has German and Swedish, but I'm not sure if they are comprehensive; they are lacking in the French keyboard but can be obtained by backspacing on the word.








an example of the Swedish virtual keyboard


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MAS said:


> The iPad has language options and the virtual keyboards contain separate letters with diacritical glyphs, such has German and Swedish, but I'm not sure if they are comprehensive; they are lacking in the French keyboard but can be obtained by backspacing on the word.
> 
> View attachment 165211
> 
> an example of the Swedish virtual keyboard


Don't have an iPad. The only pad I have is a heating pad.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Two Boris's, a Rigoletto and a Papageno! I will guess that Hagegard had this as part of his repertory. They all sound so invested in their own way that I came to the conclusion that Wagner gets some of the credit for that...that is, if you put the same degree of concentration into this aria (as though theres a way to measure such things!!??) that you put into Il Balen, there's a good chance that the end result will feel more involved here than in the Verdi. Just a theory that began right now...!

London and Hagegard could team up for my perfect rendition. If the latter, with all that gorgeous legato had a litttle of the formers authority it would be perfect. Granforte is a great singer and still sounds great way out of his fach. I thought that dark low opening would rule Kipnis out because he sounded too much like the generation above to be Wolfram. But that went away and I thought he was gold...legato, word....just great!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

ScottK said:


> Two Boris's, a Rigoletto and a Papageno! I will guess that Hagegard had this as part of his repertory. They all sound so invested in their own way that I came to the conclusion that Wagner gets some of the credit for that...that is, if you put the same degree of concentration into this aria (as though theres a way to measure such things!!??) that you put into Il Balen, there's a good chance that the end result will feel more involved here than in the Verdi. Just a theory that began right now...!
> 
> London and Hagegard could team up for my perfect rendition. If the latter, with all that gorgeous legato had a litttle of the formers authority it would be perfect. Granforte is a great singer and still sounds great way out of his fach. I thought that dark low opening would rule Kipnis out because he sounded too much like the generation above to be Wolfram. But that went away and I thought he was gold...legato, word....just great!


Fascinating. Glad you enjoyed them. They were all different.


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