# Beethoven comment on Mozart's K464



## poconoron

In his biography of Mozart , musicologist Maynard Solomon quotes Beethoven as telling his pupil Carl Czerny that this work with its complex contrapuntal techniques, was Mozart's way of saying to the world, "Look what I could produce, if only you were ready for it."

It certainly is one of my favorite Mozart works.






From what I understand, Beethoven then modeled one of his quartets after this one.


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## Sid James

I'm not surprised. But it's funny how Beeethoven really admired Mozart's music & was influenced by it, etc., yet he said he didn't learn a thing from Haydn (but Haydn influenced Mozart, to whom Mozart dedicated his _Haydn quartets_). In any case, I think Beethoven did secretly and maybe begrudgingly admire his old teacher Haydn, at least anecdotes of them meeting show this, they showed respect for one another as far as I can tell. So Beethoven's public rejection of Haydn may well have been bluff and a bit of PR - eg. "I'm the new kid on the block, roll over, Haydn." Also, a kind of Elvis factor, Mozart died young so everyone liked to remember him as a kind of youthful idol, never growing old & wrinkly, etc...


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## Pestouille

poconoron said:


> In his biography of Mozart , musicologist Maynard Solomon quotes Beethoven as telling his pupil Carl Czerny that this work with its complex contrapuntal techniques, was Mozart's way of saying to the world, "Look what I could produce, if only you were ready for it."
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> It certainly is one of my favorite Mozart works.
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> From what I understand, Beethoven then modeled one of his quartets after this one.


I would recommend the biography of Hildesheimer, it's really worth reading and gives what seems to me a better explanation. Using Beethoven to explain Mozart is a dead end... Mozart was not consciously a revolted composer. Moreover, the Zauberflöte which is one of his best opera, was simply for Mozart a way of survival (we're far away from a libretto by Da Ponte), nothing to do with an universal message. A lot of writers gave to Mozart a kind of idealized view, a bit like the paintings we're using from Mozart which do not fit the reality... But a genius should look like that...:angel:


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## kv466

In reference to what Sid said,...lots of people claim to dislike the music of other composers but anyone intelligent enough should know that what is represented in the music is what they truly feel. Sure, Beethoven may have not openly praised Haydn but it is clear that he knew his music well. I have to deal with such stupidities with my boy, Glenn...he claimed to completely abhor Beethoven but anyone who has ever seen him play the Emperor or the c minor concerto or the Tempest and many others knows that he cannot possibly really hate him. Anyone who takes that so-called hate to heart without listening to the actual performance is hard of hearing and well,...yeah.


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## poconoron

Pestouille said:


> Using Beethoven to explain Mozart is a dead end... Mozart was not consciously a revolted composer.


Just barely reaching age 35 before death, and supporting a wife and children, no, you're probably right that Mozart was not looking to revolutionize the world of music. He was composing to put food on the table. But can anyone doubt that he had the genius and capability to do so much more than he did, had his life not been cut short? I believe Beethoven was alluding to that unrealized potential in his comment, along with the fact that Mozart's "public" was just not ready for what he could do.


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## Pestouille

poconoron said:


> Just barely reaching age 35 before death, and supporting a wife and children, no, you're probably right that Mozart was not looking to revolutionize the world of music. He was composing to put food on the table. But can anyone doubt that he had the genius and capability to do so much more than he did, had his life not been cut short? I believe Beethoven was alluding to that unrealized potential in his comment, along with the fact that Mozart's "public" was just not ready for what he could do.


I am just saying that the biographer cannot apply the schemes of Beethoven to Mozart, that's all! Mozart has never made any comments on this and it is not true that his music was not appreciated. In Prague as Mozart was dying, people were whistling his arias. Mozart stayed in Vienna, God knows why... A few days after his death, royalties started to flow. It's a myth to say that Mozart has not been understood as he was living. Mozart is a mistery, but certainly not a romantic hero suffering from misunderstanding. Mozart did not die from exhaustiveness, his writing on partitions was as usual, no trembling, no change which would have been certainly the case... The few people still in relation with him didn't noticed any slow degrading. His death was sudden and the process lasted 2 days. 
Sure it is sad... I would have been missing a lot if Mozart died with 4. But he left us much more in terms of quantity then Beethoven who died much older.. What quality belongs, I think it would be stupid to compare. Maybe he would have stopped composing, or started making more money or God knows what... With what ifs you can put Paris in a bottle.
Imagine also, if all the composers lived up to 100 years, I could not store all the CDs in my house and I would need an IBM mainframe to maintain my library...no? :devil:


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## poconoron

Pestouille said:


> I am just saying that the biographer cannot apply the schemes of Beethoven to Mozart, that's all!


I'm a bit puzzled here.......... The biographer was simply recounting a comment made by Beethoven concerning Mozart's K464. It was apparently _Beethoven's opinion _ that Mozart's public was not quite ready for the "out of the box" compositions he was more than capable of. Is that to be considered "applying the schemes of Beethoven to Mozart?"

And in your prior post, what does "Using Beethoven to explain Mozart is a dead end" refer to exactly??? What am I missing???


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