# 'Happy' Minors, 'Sad' Majors



## Igneous01 (Jan 27, 2011)

One thing that peaks my interest in music is when a piece that is written in a particular mode (minor or major) ends up sounding like its opposite if you know what I mean. For example, a piece written in D Major ends up sounding very solemn and sad. That kind of effect. Do you know any examples of works that leave this kind of feeling?

Some examples I can think of for sad majors:

-Chopins raindrop prelude (the beginning just doesn't feel major, even though it is)
-Beethovens op135 SQ 3rd movement (Its all mostly in major, but it always feels sad to me)

for happy minors

-Mozarts arabesque is the only thing that rubs off, not sure if it even counts.


I realize this is a more personal taste, but I would like to see what other people thought of music that gives them this sensation. 

Thoughts/Recommendations?


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

The switch to D major at around 3:14


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## Igneous01 (Jan 27, 2011)

emiellucifuge said:


> The switch to D major at around 3:14


Hah, Ive listened to his stabat mater so many times, and I never thought about that particular passage that way before, it gives the same feeling. Interesting and thanks for pointing that out!


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

I have a harder time thinking of happy music in minor keys, but as for sad music in major keys - SCHUBERT. So much Schubert. I'm thinking especially of songs towards the end of Winterreise - Im Dorfe, Das Wirtshaus, Die Nebensonnon. Schubert somehow manages to be _more_ heartbreaking in major keys than in minor.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Pahud is the bomb. This is pure joy.


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## Dodecaplex (Oct 14, 2011)

Rast, from Winterreise, has such an ambiguous feeling to it that I don't even know if it's in a major or minor key at times. Such effortless modulations. Though, I'd say that Die Post is the most perfect example of a sad piece in a major key. Don't let yourself be fooled by the bouncy rhythm of that piano, behind it lies the deepest and profound and most unfulfillable longing.

Speaking of unfulfillable longing...


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

Dodecaplex said:


> Rast, from Winterreise, has such an ambiguous feeling to it that I don't even know if it's in a major or minor key at times.


Yus. This is something I love about Schubert, the constant alternations between major and minor (see also: Gute Nacht), like somebody who is clearly _not happy_ trying to put on a brave face but not doing so hot. Mahler also does this very well in Die Zwei Blauen Augen (from Wayfarer), which seems like a very Schuberty song to me - complete with a _lindenbaum_!


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## Igneous01 (Jan 27, 2011)

Meaghan said:


> I have a harder time thinking of happy music in minor keys, but as for sad music in major keys - SCHUBERT.


Yes, Schubert has such control over his modulations it all just flows effortlessly like a river.

But there must be some example of a happy minor? I thought about it for the longest time, and it just seems strange that I cannot think of anything - maybe a bouncy mozart dance?

edit

AHA! Bach 2nd overture! I knew such phenomena existed!


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

Hummel has some happy moments in the minor key and for a good, dark major I like Mozart's kv394 in C.


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## An Die Freude (Apr 23, 2011)

Pavane pour infante defunte sounds very sad, but it's in major. Also, Spiegel im Spiegel


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## Dodecaplex (Oct 14, 2011)

Igneous01 said:


> But there must be some example of a happy minor? I thought about it for the longest time, and it just seems strange that I cannot think of anything [...]


C minor:


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

I also find the Andante (3rd mvmt.) of Glazunov's 5th Symphony to have an elegiac sense to it. It's very established in a major key, but the overtones are very painful.






That's one thing I've noticed about Glazunov over the years of studying his music. He had a really neat ability to make a major key have negative energy to it, either anxious, disturbed, or just sad. Parts of Raymonda and the Seasons are definitely like that, also his Ballade in F major, op. 78 for Orchestra.


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

Igneous01 said:


> Yes, Schubert has such control over his modulations it all just flows effortlessly like a river.
> 
> But there must be some example of a happy minor? I thought about it for the longest time, and it just seems strange that I cannot think of anything - maybe a bouncy mozart dance?
> 
> ...


Sorry but I don't find the 2nd overture happy at all, there's a tint of melancholy, otherwise it's quite vague emotionally.


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## Eviticus (Dec 8, 2011)

Igneous01 said:


> Yes, Schubert has such control over his modulations it all just flows effortlessly like a river.


I heartedly agree with this...



Igneous01 said:


> But there must be some example of a happy minor? I thought about it for the longest time, and it just seems strange that I cannot think of anything - maybe a bouncy mozart dance?


For me the opening theme of the great G minor symphony has never been such a tragic theme - it has semi happy moments (the first being about 25 bars in which could easily pass for its relative major Bb before changing again). This is what i find about quite a lot of Mozart - some of his tragic works have happy vigour in passages.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Eviticus said:


> For me the opening theme of the great G minor symphony has never been such a tragic theme - it has semi happy moments (the first being about 25 bars in which could easily pass for its relative major Bb before changing again)


I believe it was Charles Rosen who said the opening of Mozart's G minor symphony is like looking at a woman who is so beautiful that you don't notice how sad she is.


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## Ostinato (Jun 24, 2009)

Sad majors
Beethoven: Piano sonata Op 7, 2nd movement
Schubert: 'Unfinished' Symphony, 2nd movement
Schubert: Songs - _Pause_ (Die schöne Müllerin) and _Am Meer_ (Schwanengesang)
Folk Song: The Ash Grove

Happy minors
Rossini: La Danza (the most striking example I can think of)
Mendelssohn: Scherzo from _A Midsummer Night's Dream_
Tchaikovsky: Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy (Nutcracker)
Grieg: Anitra's Dance (Peer Gynt)


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## pjang23 (Oct 8, 2009)

Sad major
Ravel: Piano Concerto in G major, 2nd movement
Brahms: Piano Quartet No.3, 3rd movement
Haydn: String Quartet Op.76 No.5 "Largo", 2nd movement

Happy minor
Brahms: Hungarian Dances! and Piano Quartet No.1, 4th movement
Dvorak: Slavonic Dances
Lalo: Symphonie Espagnole, 3rd movement

I've also always thought of the slow movement of Beethoven's 9th as a sad major.


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

I just want to mention how Schubert's genius in modulation is shown in * Death and the Maiden quartet.*

All of the movements of the quartet is on minor keys. The second movement has five variations of Schubert's theme based on his lied, Death and the Maiden. The first four variations are on the minor key while the fifth is on the key of G major. But somehow, in the last variation, Schubert' miraclously heightened the drama and sadness of the piece.. What an extraordinary moment in music!


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

A sad major I can think of is Mahler's _Sym.#9 in D majo_r...


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Sid James said:


> A sad major I can think of is Mahler's _Sym.#9 in D majo_r...


Its not _really_ in D major though, is it? It starts in D major, but moves on pretty quickly and ends in Dflat


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## willimek (Mar 31, 2013)

*Minor and Major - the Strebetendenz-theory*

Major and Minor - the Strebetendenz-Theory

If you want to answer the question, why major sounds happy and minor sounds sad, there is the problem, that some minor chords don't sound sad. The solution of this problem is the Strebetendenz-Theory. It says, that music is not able to transmit emotions directly. Music can just convey processes of will, but the music listener fills this processes of will with emotions. Similary, when you watch a dramatic film in television, the film cannot transmit emotions directly, but processes of will. The spectator perceives the processes of will dyed with emotions - identifying with the protagonist. When you listen music you identify too, but with an anonymous will now.

If you perceive a major chord, you normally identify with the will "Yes, I want to...". If you perceive a minor chord, you identify normally with the will "I don't want anymore...". If you play the minor chord softly, you connect the will "I don't want anymore..." with a feeling of sadness. If you play the minor chord loudly, you connect the same will with a feeling of rage. You distinguish in the same way as you would distinguish, if someone would say the words "I don't want anymore..." the first time softly and the second time loudly. 
This operations of will in the music were unknown until the Strebetendenz-Theory discovered them. And therefore many previous researches in psycholgy of music failed.

If you want more information about music and emotions and get the answer, why music touches us emotionally, you can download the essay "Vibrating Molecules and the Secret of their Feelings" for free. You can get it on the link:
http://www.willimekmusic.homepage.t-online.de/homepage/Striving/Striving.doc

Enjoy reading

Bernd Willimek


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## DrKilroy (Sep 29, 2012)

Sad majors: 
- Ravel's Piano Concerto in G - second movement (already mentioned),
- Ravel's Pavane (ditto),
- Ravel's Sonatine - second movement,
- Vaughan Williams' The Lark Ascending,
- VW's Pastoral Symphony,
- lots of works by Ravel and RVW, actually... 
- Gershwin's Lullaby.

Happy minors - this applies to many pieces I could call "whimsical", if you know what I mean.  For example:
- Dukas' Sorcerers Apprentice,
- many works by French harpsichordists,
- Grieg's Anitra's Dance (already mentioned),
- Bach's Badinerie.

Just a few that came to my mind at the moment. 

Best regards, Dr


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## Norse (May 10, 2010)

I saw it claimed somewhere (in some cd booklet, I think) that Brahms had a special gift for writing sad music in Major. These two are good examples, I think.

The first Intermezzo from op.117

The slow movement from the first piano concerto.


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## ProudSquire (Nov 30, 2011)

The only one that comes to mind at the moment, because I'm pretty spent, is Mozart's second movement from the immaculate 40th symphony.

Edit:
Sad Major


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## BaronAlstromer (Apr 13, 2013)

Ignaz Holzbauer-Symphony in d-minor and Georg Matthias Monn Cello Concerto in g-minor doesn´t sound too sad.


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## drpraetorus (Aug 9, 2012)

Although the Happy=Major, Sad=Minor is, at its base, a false dicotomy, it is so ubiquitous, that it is unavoidable. And, what is even more annoying to Music Theorists, it has a certain truth to it, at least in the European music system. It would be hard to imagine "When I am Laid in Earth" in a major key or the "Halleluiah" Chorus in a minor key. You are very likely to find happy minor key music in Baroque and folk music. Examples from Bach have already been mentioned. There are many in Handel as well. They become a bit less common as the Classic period takes hold. That's really when the Happy-Sad Major-Minor realtion really gets locked in. 

So, just off the top of my head, here are some that go against the grain. 

Tons of Eastern European and Yiddish, somgs are Happy Minor. "Katusha" "Meadowlands" are just examples.

From Ireland, "Carrickfergus" and "(London)derry Air" are both snugly in the major but both very poignantly sad. 

I know of few pieces as heartbreakingly sad as the major key 2nd movement of the Mozart Clarinet Concerto. Ditto Griegs "Last Spring"

Rachmaninoffs Symphonic Dances and Variations on a Theme of Paganini are not particularly sad. 

Thr main theme from Finladia is not a notably happy melody.


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## Borodin (Apr 8, 2013)

So far all the videos linked haven't been good examples to me. The majors sound happy, the minors sound sad. Don't know what everyone else is hearing.

To me, the real 'sad major' and 'happy minor' occurs when the mood changes drastically due to a new context. This effect happens especially when the major is complemented with a minor, ie. major + minor chord will yield both sounding more similar to one another, within an unexpected progression of a relative major or minor. A perfect example is I - ii. The ii sounds happy in stead of the IV, or i - V7. The V7 sounds dark and sad. Minor chords usually sound positive and uplifting under the wing of major chords. Major chords can sound very dark on their own, just put that 3rd in the bass.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I'm glad Borodin spoke up with his perspective, because I feel the same way: sadness or hope is not conveyed by "whole areas" of major or minor, but in progressions of chords. To my mind comes Purcell's "Music for the Funeral of Queen Mary," in which majors turn into minors immediately following each other. This happens in phrases, not big areas.


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## Nevohteeb (May 5, 2010)

Well, right off the top: Happy minors: Mendelssohn Piano Trios in D-, an C-. Both, are in a minor key, but they sure don't make me, feel sad. I particularly love the last movement of the C-.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Handel ~ L'Allegro, il Penseroso ed il Moderato

Set to texts of Milton, the 'joyful' and the 'contemplative' 
Handel, perhaps to entertain himself, or as a personal 'challenge' set the 'joyful' text in minor, and it is 'up' -- and the 'contemplative' in major, and it is 'down'


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## schuberkovich (Apr 7, 2013)

Sad major - the 2nd theme of the 1st movement of Schubert's String Quintet - the one which breaks out in the cellos
Also the folk song "She moved through the fair"


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## IBMchicago (May 16, 2012)

How about the Romanze movement of Mozart's Ein Kleine serenade? I find it rather melancholy for a C-major piece...let alone a party serenade. Shows how Mozart can add depth to a second class genre. Nothing was beneath him.


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## schuberkovich (Apr 7, 2013)

This is a good thread!
I remembered a really sad major (even though at times it is minor):


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

schuberkovich said:


> This is a good thread!
> I remembered a really sad major (even though at times it is minor):


That's not in a major key. It's in e-flat minor.


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## schuberkovich (Apr 7, 2013)

violadude said:


> That's not in a major key. It's in e-flat minor.


Even if the key signature is E flat minor, the tonality shifts constantly. The use of a non-sharpened D-flat gives the impression that the key is A flat major. When the first violin comes in with the second it is certainly E flat minor, but it immediately shifts into D-flat major, then G flat major, then C flat major, then a definite G flat major etc. The string quartet is in E flat minor, but I think that is more to do with the fact that it ends with a definite E flat minor triad. Shostakovich was trying to achieve a feeling of peace, and although the tonality is often ambiguous, if you actually listen to it it sounds more often major than minor.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Two very sad Glazunov majors:











 for both.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Sad major
Beethoven piano concerto 4
Brahms piano concerto 2 (in parts)


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## willimek (Mar 31, 2013)

*Why do Minor Chords Sound Sad?*

The _Theory of Musical Equilibration_ states that in contrast to previous hypotheses, music does not directly describe emotions: instead, it evokes processes of will which the listener identifies with.

A major chord is something we generally identify with the message, "I want to!" The experience of listening to a minor chord can be compared to the message conveyed when someone says, "No more." If someone were to say the words "no more" slowly and quietly, they would create the impression of being sad, whereas if they were to scream it quickly and loudly, they would be come across as furious. This distinction also applies for the emotional character of a minor chord: if a minor harmony is repeated faster and at greater volume, its sad nature appears to have suddenly turned into fury.
The Theory of Musical Equilibration applies this principle as it constructs a system which outlines and explains the emotional nature of musical harmonies. For more information you can google _Theory of Musical Equilibration_.

Bernd Willimek


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The happiest minor I know is Haydn's 95 symphony in c minor.

The saddest major I know is Schubert's C Major Quintet taken in totality.


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## Matsps (Jan 13, 2014)

Slightly off topic - Isn't it strange how so much club dance music is in minor keys and yet club goers describe it as euphoric? What's up with that? 

Back on topic: 

-Alkan étude op.35 no.7 - Claims to be in Eb major while being really rather melancholic. I'm talking mostly here about the introduction before things start burning. The feeling of uneasy doom lingering is definitely there. 

-Rachmaninoff - Moment Musicaux op.16 no.5 in Db major - I still can't believe this is in a major key. Really, I can't believe it.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

Matsps said:


> Slightly off topic - Isn't it strange how so much club dance music is in minor keys and yet club goers describe it as euphoric? What's up with that?


That is more to do with the blues scale which is basically a minor type scale (pentatonic), on which so much rock, pop and dance music is based, especially when it comes to top-lines, hooks, riffs etc. In purely harmonic terms a very common sequence in dance music is, for example, A minor/ G major/ F major, in whatever transposition or permutation you want. The minor harmony is not so much to do with 'sadness' but more to do with 'gravitas' or 'seriousness'.


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## MagneticGhost (Apr 7, 2013)

The 2nd Movt of Shostakovich's Second Piano Concerto begins in C minor, but changes to a gently dappled, shimmering, melancholic tinged C Major with the entrance of the Solo Piano.
Glorious!


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## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

How about the finale to Sleeping Beauty by Tchaikovsky? It's based on a French folk tune and it is in G minor, despite the fact that it is supposed to be a joyous wedding celebration.

To me it sounds happy in an odd kind of way, but if I didn't know the story of the ballet, I don't know if I would see it that way.


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## Funny (Nov 30, 2013)

When I read the question I immediately thought of Sibelius, though in trying to pin it down I can't think of a perfect example.


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## Picander (May 8, 2013)

Happy minor:






When I was younger I wanted to dance this incredible fugue, it has (for me) an irresistible rythm.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

schuberkovich said:


> Even if the key signature is E flat minor, the tonality shifts constantly. The use of a non-sharpened D-flat gives the impression that the key is A flat major. When the first violin comes in with the second it is certainly E flat minor, but it immediately shifts into D-flat major, then G flat major, then C flat major, then a definite G flat major etc. The string quartet is in E flat minor, but I think that is more to do with the fact that it ends with a definite E flat minor triad. Shostakovich was trying to achieve a feeling of peace, and although the tonality is often ambiguous, if you actually listen to it it sounds more often major than minor.


It sounds much influenced by Gregorian chant. I see what you mean by the beginning sounding major, but I interpreted it as a modal thing: Do ---- Re - Te - Do----- As in the violin started on the tonic from the get-go (not Re-Mi-Do-Re).


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## schuberkovich (Apr 7, 2013)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> It sounds much influenced by Gregorian chant. I see what you mean by the beginning sounding major, but I interpreted it as a modal thing: Do ---- Re - Te - Do----- As in the violin started on the tonic from the get-go (not Re-Mi-Do-Re).


You're right - it does sound more modal than major (E flat mixolydian) at first. I think that makes the whole atmosphere even more powerful.

But the part starting 3:19 is definitely a very sad major.


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