# Advice sought on how to solicit reactions to my compositions



## kperreurlloyd

My second piano concerto, (as all my works), can be found on 



. I believe it's only necessary to hear the first page or two to know what's going on.

Since 2001, I have composed an average of one symphony or concerto per year.....and there's plenty more to come. The volume of output is 'explained' by my having started rather late in the day, and have a lot of catching up to do.

When I have managed to solicit reactions, (by email), they have all been positive: but now, as emails generally it seems, are less likely to be responded to, [and as I know that my chances of being performed are about the same as those of getting a book published - .0003% {!}], I have put my works out on Sites such as: Musicians' Page, Classical Matters, Load.CD, Score Exchange, and about 20 other Sites.

A bare handful have been opened: no contact has been made.

My wish is simply to make my music available, especially as I understand from the few contacts I have made, that it is "palatable".

While I'm pretty competent on the music-making front, I am probably somewhat naïve in the self-promotion department. My question is, can I do more or other, to try to solicit reactions?

kpl


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## Crudblud

Well, plugging your work as you are here is a good way to start. This particular sub-forum of TC can either be a hotbed of criticism or a wasteland, but when people become enthused or controversy is sparked a thread can easily go to four pages or more. Perhaps not the level of reception you desire, but it isn't a bad place to give and get a little feedback.


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## Ian Moore

Crudblud is exactly right. Forums like this one are the best places to get feedback - a vital part of developing as a composer. I would like to add to his advice. Find like minded people to critique your work. Imagine who would want to listen to your music and focus on them first. It should help to build your confidence. Also, be thick-skinned. Remember that no matter what people say it is only their opinion.


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## Ian Moore

I forgot to add. You need to build an audience before you can do anything.


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## Vasks

Welcome to the real world. A world in which many thousands of composers around the globe seek people to get interested in their works. You can't make people respond to your work, although at least a few here and there will. C'est la vie.


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## Vasks

OK, so I was a Debbie Downer in my first reply. But us multitude of composers have to realize that the world does not care about us. So what to do (which is what you ask after all)?

You not only post your pieces where ever musicians are likely to see & hear them (something I don't do as I have issues with potential intellectual rights theft) but enter contests, become a member of composer organizations and respond to call for scores, seek potential publishers and ask performers you meet or can easily contact if they will be willing to look at your work.

You will get many non-responses, as well as some negative responses. However, as long as you believe in your music don't get discouraged; keep applying. Remember the competition to get somebody's attention is keen.

It is what I have been doing for many years. And while the rejects and silences are not fun to experience, when you do finally get some performances, recordings, publications, contest winnings you'll feel pretty damn good.


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## Ian Moore

Vask, I prefer your second reply. It's hard work but the rewards are great. 
Kperreurlloyd, on the sites you mention, it is hard to sell music. Have you had any luck yet?


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## Billy

Kperreurfloyd, I would say not to waste much energy working on doing much to promote your music because, like for me, it slows down my work flow. Sure I could post in YouTube on other folks pages from morning to night, but I don't think it would make much difference. I believe however that there will always be a saving remanent of listeners who will appreciate my own music and so it is theirs too if they stumble across it though I basically compose for my own pleasure. I would like for more people to pay more attention to my music, yet I am the mildest of men and would rather make more music rather than force myself to take on a struggle with Fortune and her losses. Even if I was Beethoven living today, I would rather be focusing on the music and not drowning in the grey ocean of the internet and its unfriendly nature.


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## Vasks

Ian Moore said:


> Vask, I prefer your second reply.


Of course, but the cold hard reality of the first post must be faced head-on.


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## Vasks

Billy said:


> I believe however that there will always be a saving remanent of listeners who will appreciate my own music and so it is theirs too if they stumble across it though I basically compose for my own pleasure.....I would like for more people to pay more attention to my music.


The fact that you do post your music and do hope some listeners will appreciate it negates the "_awww, shucks, I write for my own pleasure_" posit.

Deep down we want to share our work with as many people as is possible and hope most of them find it rewarding.


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## Billy

I like to post a little because I am curious, I admit.


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## Billy

Maybe, kpl, you could hire an agent to do the business side for you who is good at marketing to find your audience?


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## Nick Mourer

Well, not to advertise any website away from this one, but there is a forum I use specifically for composers. It's called Young Composers. You post your music to get reviewed regularly. You might enjoy it. Check it out if you wish! http://www.youngcomposers.com/


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## Majed Al Shamsi

Have you thought about looking for music schools around your area, and suggesting to them to let their students play your pieces during their annual (sometimes biannual) recitals?
Writing music for plays and films?
Gaining a fan base on Youtube by uploading music composition tutorials, and plugging in your pieces as examples here and there, while providing a link to the entire piece?
Joining the (insert country here) Got Talent competition?
There are countless things you can do to promote your work.


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## PetrB

For those who think that a midi presentation or Youtube are going to get your compositions 'known' and therefore, maybe 'discovered' and consequently performed -- it is a near to complete myth, with maybe an infinitely small measure of reality regarding pop genre music or a particular pop group, song, etc.

Even in the popular genres, the route is still the same post-internet as it was pre-internet.

You write _realistically, i.e. well playable music,_ for small ensembles of real players -- those ensembles and players to whom you have direct personal access (Don't have any? Start cultivating those connections.) Young professionals at the beginning of their performing careers are usually quite interested in and open to new music they can perform. That new piece written for them becomes by agreement theirs to exclusively perform or record, say for a length of one or two years before that score is made publicly available or anyone else is given access to it or performing it.

Once a work has been accepted and has a proven track record via performances, and it has an accumulated number of performances and its multiple documents of good audience and critical reception, that may be enough to get the interest of a publisher and the interest of other performers.

That established, you can then think a bit more about a readier interest in larger scale works for larger scale ensembles.

Writing to the specific skills and strengths of those specifically available performers, especially at the outset of establishing a career as composer, is crucial. It also means in a way _not writing exactly what you want or writing solely what interests you._

Once you've written for real players, and had real players perform the work in front of audiences, with revues in favor of, then you may hope to go to phase two -- writing for more than a few real players who perform in slightly more prestigious venues.

It is truly a step-by step procedure, rarely 'jumping several rungs up' that ladder.

If the OP had checked with real players, whole large chunks of the piano part would have been heavily revised, from not playable and not in the least at all pianistically interesting to something both more playable and of interest for a pianist to want to learn. 
Over half the orchestral material sounds gratuitously added after the fact as filler to accompany basically one idea in the piano, that one chunk of a group of full syncopated chords, which seems to basically occupy the whole first movement with its near wholesale repetition. 
There is so little there under all the business that I find nothing whatsoever to listen to. That paper-thinness could be avoided if real players had been consulted during the composition process.

As it is, this is another 'got midi, think I'm composing feasible music for people to actually play' piece.

I suppose all of the above is "a reaction" to this piece -- though it is the kind of reaction I think no composer would hope to hear in relation to their work :-/


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## eilrahc

Or you can become an electroacoustic composer and enjoy the blessing (and curse) of complete self-sufficiency


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## PetrB

eilrahc said:


> Or you can become an electroacoustic composer and enjoy the blessing (and curse) of complete self-sufficiency


Without any take on this other than it is a reality, and a feasible one... yes!

No one will ever perform whatever is done, but it may get heard a lot


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## Igneous01

That is the cold hard truth what Petrb wrote. You have to write music in the realm of reality - interacting with real players and real composers, who will tell you realistically what works and what doesn't. Don't think of it from the perspective that you are a designer or architect of music, but an engineer. You must find a way to build your design that it does not violate physical idioms and is practically stable. 

I think for many of us who post here and on other forums, we need to rethink our priorities. Are we composing because we wish to move up the ladder and have our music played, or is this a past time to relieve stress in our lives? Because the first path requires sacrificing much of our pre-dispositions and expectations of our music. We may end up realizing that we are in fact, still amateur composers making mistakes, and this may be a turn off for some people. Midi play back makes it seem like we know more about composing then we actually do. 

If this is the path you wish to pursue, you have to admit to yourself, that you are an amateur. Still learning, still making mistakes. Even if some of what you wrote is very good. You have to drop your ego and accept your place. Only then can you rebuild yourself from the ground up and aspire to become what you want to be.

If you are not interested in pursuing this as a career, but you do it for other reasons (similar to how some paint/draw/play games for fun) then don't take your music so seriously. Enjoy your writing sessions, and enjoy the sounds that the computer plays back. Simply enjoy the moment, and forget everything else. 

I think this statement is something we should all reflect on: "If you never play your own music, nor ever want to hear someone else play it, then you're not being honest with yourself." 

It was a cruel awakening when I read it, and it made me quit music for nearly a year. Even now I still feel anxiety when I read it.


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## Vasks

PetrB said:


> Without any take on this other than it is a reality, and a feasible one... yes!
> 
> No one will ever perform whatever is done, but it may get heard a lot


Lord, around the world there are plenty of festivals, concerts, conferences that deal exclusively with electroacoutic music. But I'm pretty sure most are not about tonal, traditional Romantic midi-orchestral pieces.


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## eilrahc

Although it was a joke, the point still stands that electroacoustic composers are free from the political hurdles that an instrumental composer has to deal with.. just to be able to hear their own music (and not just in their heads). Alot of us novices are too busy cutting our teeth with MIDI anyway to realize what would lie ahead of us. 

I've only been composing for a few years (nothing really 'tonal' based) but I do feel lucky that I chose to specialize in electroacoustics for the reasons mentioned... and also being able to learn just as much from contemporary instrumental works as pieces from the EA repertoire. But this thread concerns Romantic concerto music so... :tiphat:


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## aleazk

eilrahc said:


> Although it was a joke, the point still stands that electroacoustic composers are free from the political hurdles that an instrumental composer has to deal with.. just to be able to hear their own music (and not just in their heads). Alot of us novices are too busy cutting our teeth with MIDI anyway to realize what would lie ahead of us.
> 
> I've only been composing for a few years (nothing really 'tonal' based) but I do feel lucky that I chose to specialize in electroacoustics for the reasons mentioned... and also being able to learn just as much from contemporary instrumental works as pieces from the EA repertoire. But this thread concerns Romantic concerto music so... :tiphat:


You should check @Crudblud's compositions then. He has a similar philosophy. But, most importantly: he's good and has innate talent, and that's what really matters.


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## PetrB

aleazk said:


> You should check @Crudblud's compositions then. He has a similar philosophy. But, most importantly: he's good and has innate talent, and that's what really matters.


Never blame nor credit the tools: it is the craftsman using the tools and the quality of what they come up with that matters -- every time.


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## kperreurlloyd

"I suppose all of the above is "a reaction" to this piece -- though it is the kind of reaction I think no composer would hope to hear in relation to their work But he might like to hear reactions like these..."

_____________________________________________________________

True; but he might like to hear reactions such as these:

Dear Mr. Perreur-Lloyd.
Thank you for offering me the chance to hear your two concertos. Firstly, the music is magnificent, and very well-suited to both orchestral and pianistic interpretation.

Listening to these two works evokes and corresponds to me the musical incarnation of our time, but also, mirroring existence in major megacities, and superbly representing Man's life within them. Your talent is amazing, Maestro. What realism and honesty in your variations which contain no superlative, and in addition, maintain a perfectly identifiable thread - in spite of the complexity of your music. The diversity and the instrumental combinations are achieved with great balance and respect.

To conclude, I say unequivocally, (humble interpreter as I am), that you are rich in that which is essential to Man - emotion, sincerity, equilibrium; and, you are real. 

JEAN-MARC SAVELLI

MAESTRO ASHKENAZY (Harrison Parrott)
He enjoyed the piece and his feeling is that as it's well written in a very dynamic and jazzy sort of style, it would be best-suited to a young, up-and-coming pianist.

from GEVORG SARGSYAN - Conductor
My faithful compliments!
Piano concerto was among few contemporary concertos I really like, it has dynamic move, and very colorful.
Orchestration is impressive and doesn't affect solo part (thing, that I am used to be face often...).
Please accept my compliments!

from MICHEL MANANES - Pianist
It seems to me an extraordinary work: Full of new colours, ferocious and apocalyptic rhythms.
A very Unique Work.
I would be enchanted to perform it.
Greetings and Congratulations.

Dear Mr Perreur-Lloyd,
Would I go across town and pay 50 dollars to hear this piece in a live performance? Yes. Definitely. It`s exciting, imaginative and compelling. Bravo! 
Kindest Regards,
ALBERTO REYES

from RONALD BRAUTIGAM
Dear Keith Perreur-Lloyd,
Thank you for sending me the link to your Piano Concerto, which I think is a wonderful and very powerful piece.
With very best wishes,


from JENS LUHR - Pianist
I listened to the concerto a few times again. I really do like it.
The whole concerto is most impressive.

from BRYAN PEZZONE - Pianist
The music is exciting and has depth and drive. Please convey to Keith that I think the music is outstanding, and if I can help, I certainly am willing to do what I can. Thank you very much for having sent me this wonderful music. It is new and fascinating. Thank you

from ELIZABETH WOLFF - Pianist
Both piano concertos are fabulous: your imagination, energy, fine orchestral artistry.
I am now a fan.

from POLLYANNA GUNNING - Sanctuary Records
I think your music is really dramatic and exciting, reminding me in places of Stravinsky or Bartok, and in other places of some of my favourite film scores. I do wish you the best of luck, and keep at the composing !

Dear Keith Perreur-Lloyd,
I greatly enjoyed listening to your two Piano Concertos. Such brilliance, virtuosity and imaginative writing! Bravo!
Yours sincerely,

FLORIAN UHLIG.


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## PetrB

^^^^ 
Dear Mr. Perreur-Lloyd:

With all of that, what do you need anyone here for? 

Call or write those who gave the strongest indicators of interest and see if you can get an actual professional performance out of any of them: I'm convinced you are mistaking the comments from the better-known people as genuine, instead of what reads to me like deferentially polite lip service. Most of those read like that polite response which meets the unsolicited submission of a score / recording of a work -- a flat-out between the lines _rejection_ of the submitted work.

The sub text message is 0 real interest in your work, phrased in such a way with some real consideration for your feelings. Otherwise, you would have had at least one of them eagerly asking for your score, permission to perform it, with the attendant business details of fees, etc. If none of that has happened, people are being 'nice.'

Now, since you seem to be quite happy with those comments, perhaps thinking of them as door-opening virtually good-to-go contracts to perform your work(s), I think you should reconsider why they wrote what they wrote, including the gushing comments (those most likely from performers not very up on their discernment of current contemporary classical music) and most importantly, _why none of them were soliciting you further for permission to perform the work(s)_.

I wonder too, what percent of those above comments are out of a total of unopened and returned manuscripts, or the virtual version of same.

You should listen to Aleazk's _Piano Concerto_ 
http://www.talkclassical.com/23172-piano-concerto.html


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## Vasks

PetrB said:


> ^^^^
> Dear Mr. Perreur-Lloyd:
> 
> With all of that, what do you need anyone here for?


He initially wanted: "*Advice sought on how to solicit reactions to my compositions*"

But it appears he's been quite busy promoting and getting reactions without our advice.

So yeah! What does he need us for?


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## Billy

PetrB said:


> ^^^^
> Dear Mr. Perreur-Lloyd:
> 
> With all of that, what do you need anyone here for?
> 
> Call or write those who gave the strongest indicators of interest and see if you can get an actual professional performance out of any of them: I'm convinced you are mistaking the comments from the better-known people as genuine, instead of what reads to me like deferentially polite lip service. Most of those read like that polite response which meets the unsolicited submission of a score / recording of a work -- a flat-out between the lines _rejection_ of the submitted work.
> 
> The sub text message is 0 real interest in your work, phrased in such a way with some real consideration for your feelings. Otherwise, you would have had at least one of them eagerly asking for your score, permission to perform it, with the attendant business details of fees, etc. If none of that has happened, people are being 'nice.'
> 
> Now, since you seem to be quite happy with those comments, perhaps thinking of them as door-opening virtually good-to-go contracts to perform your work(s), I think you should reconsider why they wrote what they wrote, including the gushing comments (those most likely from performers not very up on their discernment of current contemporary classical music) and most importantly, _why none of them were soliciting you further for permission to perform the work(s)_.
> 
> I wonder too, what percent of those above comments are out of a total of unopened and returned manuscripts, or the virtual version of same.
> 
> You should listen to Aleazk's _Piano Concerto_
> http://www.talkclassical.com/23172-piano-concerto.html


This seems like mere unfriendliness and envy to me.


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## PetrB

Billy said:


> This seems like mere unfriendliness and envy to me.


I reached a point a long time ago when a student: I heard a work by a fellow student and realized for the first time I had no envy, but was simply pleased for their success.

One could envy success, while I would be 'simply pleased' about that same success.

However, it seems Mr. Perreur-Lloyd's music is still stuck on paper/computer disc and in the realms of virtual reproduction vs the live performance and acoustic recordings _which it seems_ he desires, and he seems highly unaware of the linguistic conventions which constitute a letter of rejection, or what a letter of actual acceptance reads like.


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## PetrB

kperreurlloyd said:


> I have put my works out on Sites such as: Musicians' Page, Classical Matters, Load.CD, Score Exchange, and about 20 other Sites.
> 
> *A bare handful have been opened: no contact has been made.*


*"A bare handful have been opened: no contact has been made."*

You need to understand that No Answer _is_ An Answer.


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## Vasks

PetrB said:


> it seems Mr. Perreur-Lloyd's music is still stuck on paper....


Upon thinking about "paper" (i.e. score) I decided to go back and look at it in HD. I hope Mr. Perreur-Lloyd is not sending the score out as it appears on the YouTube link he gave us, for it's not ready for prime time.

I'm not going to list all the problems I saw between pages 80-100 (apparently Youtube remembered where I last stopped watching a week or more ago, so that's the area I examined today) because I do have a life, but let me just say that if I were a conductor and saw all those notes squished together and saw the trombones (c. pp. 90-98) in the treble clef, I'd just shake my head and look no further.


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## PetrB

Vasks said:


> Upon thinking about "paper" (i.e. score) I decided to go back and look at it in HD. I hope Mr. Perreur-Lloyd is not sending the score out as it appears on the YouTube link he gave us, for it's not ready for prime time.
> 
> I'm not going to list all the problems I saw between pages 80-100 (apparently Youtube remembered where I last stopped watching a week or more ago, so that's the area I examined today) because I do have a life, but let me just say that if I were a conductor and saw all those notes squished together and saw the trombones (c. pp. 90-98) in the treble clef, I'd just shake my head and look no further.


I too, saw much which is unplayable, unreadable, gratuitously assigned to an instrument without any seeming knowledge of the instrument's capacities or its innate qualities. Undergrad student comps have in them far less flaws, weaknesses and downright impossibilities.

The OP seems deafened to all practical advice by that huge set of ear plugs called "The Ego's Hunger For Recognition," and until that is out of the way, there is, imhEstimate, no chance for 'the next piece' to be anything but as problem-laden as the ones already presented here.

Plugged ears, for whatever reason, are a composer's greatest hindrance and worst enemy.


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## juergen

You could take part in composition competitions. Then you can be quite sure that your compositions are given serious consideration. And if you don't win you can still learn something. For example by comparison of your piece with the winning piece.

But first you have to upgrade your sounds, man! You really can't come up with that kind of stone age sounds.


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## Crudblud

As I said in the other thread kperreurlloyd made, the sounds aren't the problem, more the lack of care taken to instruct the computer as a performer.


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