# For Classical Music beginners - Brandenburgs or Cello Suites



## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Let's say, you were teaching a class on Classical Music Appreciation or something not too theoretical or in depth and you decided you wanted Bach to be the introduction to Classical Music. I figure Brandenburg's or the Cello Suites would make a nice introduction (as opposed to something that might come off a little too dry to beginners, like the WTC. Or something too grand, like the Mass in b minor or the Passions)

But which one is the best one? I've been so engrossed in Classical Music for so long that I've half forgotten what it's like to think like a beginner.

On one hand, the Cello Suites would be good because there's only one line to focus on (well technically only one line, of course there is "hidden" counterpoint within the lines, but let's not go there for now) and it would be a good chance to talk about simple things like melody, sequences and what not. But on the other hand, a solo cello piece might come off as under stimulating to some people. Plus, with the Cello Suites we're dealing with implied harmony rather than actual harmony, which could be harder for many people to hear, or it might not be, I'm not sure.

And then there are the Brandenburg concertos, which are on a whole, more lively and colorful than the Cello Suites. But there is so much going on in them and so much polyphony. Maybe they would be a little harder to follow for some people than the one-line Cello Suites?

I might be underestimating people's ability to hear something in music that is new to them, but I'm also compensating for the fact that I usually overestimate people's ability to hear something in music that is new to them. 

What do you guys think?


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

I think the amount of polyphony is not so much an issue as the way it is perceived. If a clear "main line" can be heard, and the other lines don't seem to contradict it too much in terms of rhythm, someone who is used to homophonic music will be able to follow along well enough.

I agree with your idea that the Cello Suites might not be immediately stimulating enough, and, I think, perhaps not colorful enough to draw people in. The Prelude to the G major one is very well-known, though, and hearing something familiar is also a good way to lead into an introduction to classical music.


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## Grizzled Ghost (Jun 10, 2015)

As a relative beginner, I would think that the most important criteria is that the music sound nice. If they find the music grating they won't appreciate it, no matter what structural patterns you reveal to them.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Grizzled Ghost said:


> As a relative beginner, I would think that the most important criteria is that the music sound nice. If they find the music grating they won't appreciate it, no matter what structural patterns you reveal to them.


Hmm yes...nice...

I don't know what nice sounds like to most people though. So I'm at a loss for that one.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

The Brandenburgs. The Cello Suites would sound boring for beginners


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

Triplets said:


> The Brandenburgs. The Cello Suites would sound boring for beginners


Second the Brandenburgs. I like that you want to start with Bach but I know a slew of beginners that love the Four Seasons... On the other hand, I also think starting beginners on something 20th century (which is closer to some contemporary stuff they are familiar with) and working your way back is a good way to go about it.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Definitely the Brandenburgs. Cello suites way too hifalutin' and arcane for someone to whom classical probably implies difficult and snooty. How many of you came to classical through orchestral pieces? Vs. chamber music? Enough said.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Another good piece for beginners is the 1st keyboard concerto, played on the piano. A good rip snortin' performance, preferably.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Definitely the Brandenburgs. When I first heard them, at 13 or 14, I was delighted, even in a rather heavy-footed 1950s-style (pre-HIP) performance. At that time my idea of classical music was mainly Johann Strauss and Tchaikovsky, and Bach's Baroque counterpoint was a style of music new to me. I didn't hear the cello suites until I was in college, and although by then I knew a lot of classical music, including Bach's Chaconne for solo violin, and thought nothing of sitting and listening through the b-minor Mass or St. Matthew Passion, I found the solo cello stuff very boring. The cello is a somber-sounding instrument, and less appealing to most people, I suspect, than the violin. I suggest saving that music until people understand Bach's style and his objectives in the solo music, the way he creates the effect of multiple lines and implied harmonies with a single line of music. Maybe the violin Chaconne - such a masterpiece! - is the ideal way in to that side of his work.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

Something accessible but not super popular, like BWV84 which is no special case of anything: it's just Bach being nice.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Brandenburgs.

(1) It is the finest set of Baroque concerti grossi ever written (along with Handel's opus 6 set as well)
(2) It features all the melody instruments of the day (and now)
(3) It features the first (or among the very first) keyboard concerto solo part ever written (no.5)


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## jenspen (Apr 25, 2015)

I actually heard a composer talking on this very subject once. He had taught at a school in the East End of London which was, at the time, a famously challenging educational environment and celebrated for its awfulness in books and film. 

Of the several pieces he had success with I remember the 2nd Brandenburg (who could resist that trumpet). 

There was one kid who hated music till he played them "In the Hall of the Mountain King". 

Wish I could remember the other pieces he had success with.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Triplets said:


> The Brandenburgs. The Cello Suites would sound boring for beginners


This is the right answer :tiphat:


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

I began Bach with his Brandenburg Concerti (and the Goldberg Variations). While they are likely the most appropriate works for the not too deep or theoretical Classical Music Appreciation class, I think the Cello Suites (or Violin Sonatas and Partitas) would be excellent for a follow-up class for those looking for a bit more. It is these latter works that turned me into a devoted Bach fan.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I got into Bach (way back in the 80s, early in my explorations of classical music) via his most famous organ works, then moved on to the overtures (loved them), the Brandenburgs (was not impressed), and the concertos for violin and piano (loved them). I tried the cello suites at a later stage, so that's not a fair comparison (they have become one of my favourite set of compositions by my favourite composer).

So the Brandenburgs do not work for every beginner. Then again, nothing works for everyone.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Brandenburgs, for the reasons already given above.

Or _The Four Seasons _...


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## Harold in Columbia (Jan 10, 2016)

Shelve both, listen to the Christmas oratorio.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Thinking back to my "beginner" days, I never cared much for the Brandenburgs, which I'm pretty certain was because I had only heard non-HIP recordings. The cello suites captivated me straight away.

I don't know exactly how this hypothetical music-appreciation course is supposed to work, but "the Brandenburgs" and "the cello suites" is quite a lot of music. Could the hypothetical teacher pick _a_ Brandenburg and _a_ cello suite and get the best of both worlds?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Harold in Columbia said:


> Shelve both, listen to the Christmas oratorio.


Always interesting to see the various recommendations on a thread like this. Personally, I did not like the Christmas oratorio the first times I heard it, and I still don't particularly like it almost 30 years later.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

Brandenburgs first .... although I am so familiar with them now that I hardly ever listen to them unless I catch one on the radio whereas I listen quite often to the cello suites (and more especially the solo violin partitas and sonatas)


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## Djuki75 (Dec 14, 2015)

Brandenburgs is the best for a beginners in classical music. Reason? it's easy


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## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

I wouldn't take the whole-works approach. I'd do a few pieces from the cello suites (I recommend the first movements of G major and C minor suites), and something from other works, like the C minor (yes, minor) prelude from book 1 of WTC, definitely the piano version of "Ich ruf zu dir Herr" if you can assume too many of the people haven't seen the movies that use that music, perhaps the A minor prelude from BWV 543...


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

Adding to the overwhelming responses in agreement, the Brandenburgs are better for beginners. Or, at least I'd think so because of their varied colors and textures.


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

MarkW said:


> Definitely the Brandenburgs. Cello suites way too hifalutin' and arcane for someone to whom classical probably implies difficult and snooty. How many of you came to classical through orchestral pieces? Vs. chamber music? Enough said.


Well, you might think so but at least one of my friends got started in classical music with the solo violin sonatas and partitas.
It takes all sorts and it might require different approaches to appeal to their different tastes.


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## Bill H. (Dec 23, 2010)

I'd go for the Brandenburgs too, but in two different ways--

A performance by an instrumental group (preferably HIP, because it sounds a bit more raw and colorful with those keyless oboes and valveless brass instruments); 

Then try #3 or #4 as realized by Wendy Carlos from her Switch-on-Bach albums.


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## Mal (Jan 1, 2016)

Why not start with what people will (almost certainly) have heard and (are likely to) appreciate from the get go? For example:

Cello Suite No. 1 in G Major BWV1007 - Mov. 1
Toccata and Fugue in D minor BWV 565
Air on the G String (Suite No. 3, BWV 1068)
...


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

Mahlerian said:


> I think the amount of polyphony is not so much an issue as the way it is perceived. If a clear "main line" can be heard, and the other lines don't seem to contradict it too much in terms of rhythm, someone who is used to homophonic music will be able to follow along well enough.
> 
> I agree with your idea that the Cello Suites might not be immediately stimulating enough, and, I think, perhaps not colorful enough to draw people in. The Prelude to the G major one is very well-known, though, and hearing something familiar is also a good way to lead into an introduction to classical music.


Agree 100% with Mahlerian.

Start with Bach's vocal works only if you want to turn them away from classical music altogether.


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## Mal (Jan 1, 2016)

If you are giving an overview of Bach surely you have to talk about his choral works - I can't see a short selection form his most well known works scaring people away, e.g., the opening aria to "Ich habe genug", BWV 82.

P.S. I'd question using Bach for a general introduction to Classical Music. How would you use him to introduce "the symphony" or "Opera"?


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

A few years ago, a couple I knew (a generation younger than me) were getting married. I knew they were passionate music lovers, but their knowledge outside of pop/rock was limited. I got them a collection of CDs (yes this was long enough ago that CDs were still an acceptable format) to expand their range. These included (among others) "Kind of Blue," "The Telluride Sessions," and the Cellos Suites.

I think the cello has a particularly appealing sound that extends to people who are not focused on classical.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Brandenburgs, livelier, easier tunes to pick up on.


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## Guest (Jan 18, 2016)

> P.S. I'd question using Bach for a general introduction to Classical Music. How would you use him to introduce "the symphony" or "Opera"?


You have to start somewhere. Brandenburg are as good of an introduction an any. My moment of epiphany with classical music was hearing the first prelude of the cello suite played on the guitar by an inferior player! But, it did its magic. I was fascinated and immediately wanted to dig deeper. That was 21 years ago.


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