# Goodbye!



## Lisztfreak (Jan 4, 2007)

Since the thread on which to discuss about the 'Great Controverse' has (most predictably) been closed by our [leaders], I had to open another one.

Following some most turbulent and unjust days with very little parliamentarism and very much authoritarism, I have decided to leave.

Goodbye to all those who helped me, who talked a lot, who showed their love for classical music and knew how to be nice and kind!

I'm sorry to leave, but that's what I'll do. Don't think I'm trying to make martyrs out of me and your other members, moderators, it's only my act of protest.

And, by the way, there are very few of the 'old school' left. Manuel, Alnitak, oisfetz... all have left. Or been banned.

In the end, I'd like to say a very fond farewell to Kurki, ChamberNut, opus67, Edward Elgar and others whose usernames I can't exactly remember now.

Bye!


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## Guest (Nov 30, 2007)

Was it necessary to make a scandal ? couldn’t you leave in silence ? Talking in a forum is a drug. When one is tired of talking, he posts less and less, and disappear in silence. People who makes scandals are forum-addicted and scandals are absolutely useless.


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## Guest (Nov 30, 2007)

*Peace on board.*

I don't share the opinion of members who think that moderators are cruel and blood-thirsty tyrants. If so, why didn't they delete the thread "injustice" immediately. I just think they are a bit awkward. As for Manuel, I'm pretty sure that he was about to leave the forum (the 1000th post, the souvenir-pictures, the lot of works he often said he had to do, etc…). Anyway, he would have disappeared. So, why not suggesting a kind of amnesty. For example, a temporary ban for Manuel - his behavior was not worst as other in previous situations (remember that controversial threat, etc …) - could probably be a good lesson, and calm down Alnitak, Morigan, Oisfetz, and you Lizstfreak... Come on, guys, let's be adults.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

*Okay... time for me to lose my temper now:*

Dear Lisztfreak: I've enjoyed your contributions here. I can't think of a single post you've made with which I've needed to take issue-- until now. 


Lisztfreak said:


> Following some most turbulent and unjust days with very little parliamentarism


 Parliamentarianism?! Are you kidding me?! To remind all of the facts of this forum, we are here as _guests_. There has been much talk about "free-riders," but ultimately, there are only 3 people here who are NOT "free-riders:" 1) The Site Owner, 2) The Assistant Administrator, and 3) The Super Moderator. All others (INCLUDING YOU AND ME!) are "free-riders." There has been some talk of appeals to the Site Owner... and this is anyone's right. However, if _I_ were the Site Owner, I would take umbrage at the suggestions that people who contribute a few key-strokes (like me [or others]) have any kind of collective proprietary rights to this board.

Unjust?! For enforcing the clearly worded terms of service? In fact, I set about the task of discovering which terms of service guidelines the banned member DIDN'T violate. Okay... he didn't re-transmit copyrighted material. Every other guideline (and I mean EVERY OTHER ONE) was flouted.

To those who are in or aspire to positions of leadership, one cardinal rule is: praise in public, and criticize in private. We have inverted that protocol. So, I say again, a hearty THANK YOU! to Frederik, Daniel, & Krummhorn for providing a place where we have relative freedom from the abuses seen in more churlish forums.

To all who have problems with such leadership, please de-camp to such sites.
Really.
Better yet, do as one former poster has done and set up a parallel site. There are lots of "web-host" software sets available. Then, discourse the way banned members have discoursed, and see how long you last.


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## Frasier (Mar 10, 2007)

Sincerely sorry to see you go, Lisztfreak. We've exchanged a few comments here and there. So...wishing you well. No doubt our paths will cross on some other forum! 

best regards,
Frasier.

PS By the way, nice sentiments from Chi Town/Philly except - hardly true. I was not invited here so I can hardly be a guest. I'm a participant. Without participants you have no forum.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

Frasier said:


> PS By the way, nice sentiments from Chi Town/Philly except - hardly true. I was not invited here so I can hardly be a guest. I'm a participant. Without participants you have no forum.


Thanks (I think), *Frasier*. An interesting distinction... perhaps not entirely semantical. That's okay, I'd rather contemplate word-usage than contemplate some of the other things I've reflected upon during the recent past.


TalkClassical Main Page said:


> By joining our community you will have access to post topics, upload content and access many other features. Registration is absolutely free so please, *join our classical music forums!*


Well, _I_ took it as an invitation (conditional, of course, on acting like a civilized person).

Ah, let's compromise and say that we're _invited_ to _participate_.


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## Gustav (Aug 29, 2005)

you can find some of the members at http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

Gustav said:


> you can find some of the members at [link to web-site omitted, as respondent recognizes its presence is a posting violation].


Do you mean both of them, or all three of them?


Clepsydra said:


> ...talkclassical.com is not a place for personal revenge. LFcatface should have been banned also.


It's good to get this out into the open, because I predicted that someone would attempt to use the "moral equivalency" argument. If you knew that LF's initial gambit was withdrawn on _her_ request, would that change your mind any? Even if it was under duress- it represented one (1) ad hominem sortie. In response, the banned member followed up with 1) vulgarity and profanity, 2) ad hominem attack after ad hominem attack, 3) posting personal information, 4) getting personal, 5) being unvcivil and disrespectful, and 6) continuing to argue after leadership sought to declare the matter closed.

The assailed responded somewhat in kind... but to say that there's equivalency there reminds me of William F. Buckley's metaphor about being pushed into the path of a bus as opposed to pushing a path out of the way of a bus. If all we see is the pushing, we're not going to make the correct conclusions.

Otherwise, thanks for your qualified agreement. To use a parental mantra, "*YOU* are responsible for what *YOU* do." We are without the banned member's presence, because he got it the old-fashioned way... he _earned_ it.


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## Krummhorn (Feb 18, 2007)

Thank you, Chi_town/Philly ... I couldn't have summed it up better

Once again, we remind members of the posted FAQ Rules and TOS

The forum Administrative Staff has been more than patient in the recent weeks. We have literally bent over backwards to keep the forum community forging ahead.

WE (and that includes Daniel and myself) are all GUESTS (participant or invited) of Frederik Magle - He is the one who continues to keep the lights on here. He is the one who long ago established the written Rules and TOS for this forum community. Those TOS were agreed upon by EVERY MEMBER when the initially joined this forum. So, with that, and the other postings by Daniel and myself, NOBODY can say they weren't sufficiently warned.

We have had more than our fair share of turmoil in the past weeks ... it is time to move on ... Or to quote Clepsydra above, "Come on, guys, let's be adults".

An added note:
I've decided to keep this thread open for the moment and *not* delete *any* posts (that's my option, btw) just so everyone can see *how really silly all this crapola can get* ... it's quite childish how we now have to resort to bringing the contents of ones PM's in order to prove our point(s). Drop it already ... The case, whatever it was, is closed ... posts have been deleted and the appropriate measures to assure compliance with the clearly posted forum rules have been taken in accordance with procedures defined by the site administrator, Frederik Magle.

*Do we have to have a posting on this matter from Frederik Magle himself BEFORE you all will believe what we * *are saying here?* 

Is this a good example of "adult" behavior? I think we all need to think twice before we hit that "Post Quick Reply" button ... at least use the "Preview" option before it becomes public print.


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## Pianoforte (Jul 27, 2007)

In times of frustration, hostility, sadness or anger I put on Classic FM and go for a drive. Wildlife doesn't care and I try to emulate that philosophy. It works wonders and is healthy to boot.

Making music has the same effect although that’s difficult to do when driving. Singing excepted. Possibly a Harminica with a support brace too.


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## LFcatface (Nov 21, 2007)

Thanks Pianoforte, for reminding everyone that we are here on this forum, because of music.


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## Krummhorn (Feb 18, 2007)

Pianoforte said:


> In times of frustration, hostility, sadness or anger I put on Classic FM and go for a drive. Wildlife doesn't care and I try to emulate that philosophy. It works wonders and is healthy to boot.
> 
> Making music has the same effect although that's difficult to do when driving. Singing excepted. Possibly a Harminica with a support brace too.


Thank you, Pianoforte ... I'm going to do just that ... in fact, I'm playing for a funeral this afternoon at church ... and that will be a much more enjoyable time ... lol


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## opus67 (Jan 30, 2007)

Quick, everyone jump on the 'I quit' bannedwagon!


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## Morigan (Oct 16, 2006)

Ok, I quit. bye.


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## jjfan (Nov 9, 2007)

What's the fuzz about? What triggered this (quitting of members) exactly?


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## Aigen (Jul 30, 2007)

Krummhorn said:


> We have literally bent over backwards to keep the forum community forging ahead.


Literally?


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## Guest (Dec 3, 2007)

Ive been away for a while and i come back to this!?!?!? Ahh some of the best members are now gone. That’s is not good for anyone, moderators, members, and guests. I mean this is in the most polite sense. Moderators, you have to take some responsibility for the mass departure and the frustration of the members. This is a small forum that has kept going by some of the members that have been banned or have left. I am not upset because I have been on the receiving end of any harm or "injustice," rather i am upset by the way things have been handled which caused such an uproar and caused some to leave. And at the same time you then continue to prod at the members who show any protest. 

If this is kept up the forum will not be active and therefore be closed down. Mr. Mangle i am sure does not want to see this forum shut down. 

And though the members are guests in the place, opening a forum is still a commercial venture and almost all commercial establishments try to have "customer satisfaction." I do not believe that is being upheld here. 

With all due respect,
Preston


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## Mark Harwood (Mar 5, 2007)

Hello Preston.
You make your point in a sensible and polite way. Recently, others have not.
It might be helpful to consider how many people would have left this site had that foul language and ignorant behaviour not been dealt with firmly. I, for one, had had quite enough of it. As a parent, I had even greater concerns. My "customer satisfaction" has been enhanced greatly by the absence of some argumentative people who were prepared to defend obnoxious behaviour.
This topic gets old. Can we get back to the music please, everyone?


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## Daniel (Jul 11, 2004)

Dear Notserp89m,

Just one short answer, because Mark Harwood is so right in saying this is getting old.

I appreciate your polite statement. But in this case you cannot judge, because you missed all relevant posts and going-ons (partly deleted or edited, so that you don't have a full view).

Kind regards,
Daniel


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## Morigan (Oct 16, 2006)

Mark Harwood said:


> [...] It might be helpful to consider how many people would have left this site had that foul language and ignorant behaviour not been dealt with firmly. [...] As a parent, I had even greater concerns. My "customer satisfaction" has been enhanced greatly by the absence of some argumentative people who were prepared to defend obnoxious behaviour.?


Oh, please... you sound like Helen Lovejoy from The Simpsons

"Will someone please think of the children?"


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2007)

Surly its about standards, individually some have higher standards than others, also the standard of this forum has always been on the higher level and long may it remain so!


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2007)

Daniel said:


> you cannot judge, because you missed all relevant posts and going-ons (partly deleted or edited, so that you don't have a full view).
> Daniel


The concern over censorship is not one that is a new phenomenon on this forum. And even as I missed many "relevant posts and going-ons" there is allot to be said for Lisztfreak as well as Alnitak and oisfetz to be leaving. I was astonished when i saw Manuel banned BUT i did not know the reason and it very well could have been well founded. The "Temporarily Closed for Repairs" post at the end of the "Injustice!" thread is pure unfounded censorship. If you will not allow people to state their opinion, even if it is not to your liking, this community is not one i would enjoy being a part of. And to further add to my disappointment the moderators still will not take ANY responsibility for the problems here. Those who do not take responsibility for their actions in my opinion are immature. This further exasperates my frustration because the moderators have labeled any dissenters immature and childish, which is hypocrisy. I will say my final words on this forum.

Keep closing threads, keep banning member, keep the censorship, and watch the people leave.

With all due respect,
Preston


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## Edward Elgar (Mar 22, 2006)

What has this forum come to! All I wanted to do was to talk about classical music and now I've witnessed this revolution! As long as there are members talking about music on this forum, I will at least keep a mild interest in this forum.

Can someone post where all the other guys have gone?


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## Daniel (Jul 11, 2004)

@Notserp89m: This chapter should have entirely been discussed enough and it is finished. You have to understand that - for example - it is impossible to leave insulting and threatening comments. You have accepted this rules while registering to this forum and it is the only correct acting to assure a proper and polite style.


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## Frasier (Mar 10, 2007)

And, with sincere respect, what _*you*_ have to understand is that the rules may be rules but they are applied entirely with _*your judgement*_. There are no absolute criteria. It's down to what you like and not. There will be cases where a post is obviously insulting or derogatory. Fine - it has to go.

But there are times when genuine debate gets heated and your likes and dislikes govern your moderation. You want discussion? You have to put up with things getting heated at times. I've been a victim of your heavy-handedness: someone directs some contentious remark at me. I defend myself....and get infractions, with posts and parts of posts deleted that distort the whole discussion. It makes it a pain to post. Now, when I bother to visit this site I have to ask myself if I'm wasting my time posting because you may decide not to like what I have to say. Stifle too much discussion and people won't bother. They'll go find some site where they can exercise their views without feeling the heavy hand above them the whole time.

regards,
EF


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## D Minor (Dec 8, 2007)

mafan said:


> What's the fuzz about? What triggered this (quitting of members) exactly?


I like mysteries…


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## Daniel (Jul 11, 2004)

@Frasier: Every edit, every deletion and every infraction is a severe question and step for us. A ban is a final step if nothing helps. It is really NOT a pleasure. You won't find any absolute criteria for any kind of such forums, because, it is simple: We are human beings. You will only find people who try to realize a forum in a most preferable way, with values and rules in which they see a most appropiate and respectful ground.

If anyone dislikes this kind of treatment, it is up to her/him to settle someone else. We regret those decisions, but it is not our will.

But it is definately necessary that there HAS TO BE a moderation in some cases, and some phrases are unacceptable to leave in public. For my part I accept your critic, though I am convinced that our decisions were the right ones, and I want to affirm, that we apply all our time here for a most suitable and encouraging platform for music and to guarantee a polite, comfortable and familiar atmosphere in respect and open minds.

Kind regards,
Daniel


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