# Do you enjoy the theme and variations form?



## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Recently, a thread was made on "the genius of Beethoven vs the genius of Handel", and someone commented that they didn't like Beethoven's variations of Handel's theme, because they don't like the form. I've seen a number of people over the years comment here that the form seems pretty dry to them. 

Personally, I could set aside a whole day some weekends for listening to music written in this form, enraptured as my favorite themes from opera and elsewhere are amusingly warped into something so different, again and again. I have always loved the idea of "restricted creativity", where you purposely have a controlled element in order to demonstrate creativity elsewhere.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

Yes.............................


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Funny...while you started this thread, the radio was playing Paganini's 24th Caprice. Coincidence?

I love the theme and variations form, especially in the hands of a master.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Yes. I can't live without this great form.

Some of my faves off the top of my skull:

Bach's Goldberg Variations.

Rachmaninov's Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini.

Brahms' Handel Variations.

Mozart's 24th Keyboard Concerto, Third Movement.

Beethoven's Diabelli Variations.

Beethoven's Eroica Symphony, Final Movement.

Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, Third Movement.

Soooooooo many examples of great Haydn themes with variations....I could be here all day!

Wait a minute! I am!! So, one great one from Haydn-the Emperor Quartet slow movement!


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

No poll????


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Yes - I'm a big fan whether it be large-scale stand-alone works like the Goldbergs or 'mini-sets' tucked away within another work (Hindemith was fond of doing that). There are some variation works that are not so obvious as others, at least to me (i.e. Schoenberg's Variations for Orchestra), but I always hope to get eventual lightbulb moments in cases like that.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

I do, my favourite theme and variation being the second movement of the Kreuzer sonata, by Luigi...


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Generally, not a lot, overall I prefer pieces that are less relentless.
Lots of favourites though, at least.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I like passacaglia form as well...Bach's organ piece and stuff from that era. To me, "variation" is enabled by the consistent underpinning, or bass line.


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## Autocrat (Nov 14, 2014)

I prefer the larger scale works, Rach's Paganini and Elgar's Enigma variations are at the top of my list.


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

I like it better when the theme is repeated or varied later in a bigger work instead of having just a theme followed by variations. An example would be the different iterations of The Imperial March that pop up in The Empire Strikes Back or the various times the Fate theme is heard in Tchaikovsky's Symphony No. 4.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Beethoven's variations of Händel for cello & piano is one of my favorite pieces, so YES I like theme & variations. Also being a guitarist, I can't avoid them. The early romantic repertory has more variation pieces than anything else. Oh...The Goldberg variations...the best piece ever


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

A few more variations... 

Tchaikovsky Suite #3 for Orchestra - last movement "Theme and Variations" to which Balanchine did a great ballet
Dohnanyi - Variations on a Nursery Tune
Respighi - Metamorphoseon - Modi XII - Theme and Variations for Orchestra (if you like Respighi and don't know this, go listen right now!)
Dvorak - Symphonic Variations on an Original Theme
Vaughan Williams - Symphony #8 - first movement - Fantasia (Variazioni senza tema) - or as RVW put it, 'seven variations in search of a theme'

and last but not least...
Elgar's Enigma Variations


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I enjoy the form sometimes. 

Elgar's Enigma Variations offer so much -- well, variety! I also enjoy when variations appear as part of a larger work, but doesn't wear out their welcome as in the third movement of Beethoven's Piano Sonata No. 30, Op. 109.

I think if there's just a couple of extra notes thrown in between the main notes of the melody, that's not much of a variation, but that's what I hear in most examples of the form, even most of Beethoven's. I can't say I actively dislike the practice. Variations just seldom get me worked up in anticipation.

Far, far cooler for me is when an apparently completely new theme appears in a larger work, and you only realize later (sometimes years later) that it's a variation of an earlier theme from the work. Beethoven was great at this.


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## MrTortoise (Dec 25, 2008)

I lump theme and variations/chaconne/pasacaglia all as the same form and it really seems to bring out the best when inspiration hits the composer. The d minor chaconne, last movement of Beethoven 32 sonata, and last movement of Brahms 4th. These works overwhelm my senses with delight.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Dim7 said:


> No poll????


Yes...............we do need another poll


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Pugg said:


> Yes...............we do need another poll


Best variations, standalone or part of a larger work, poll suggestions:

1 - Bach: Violin Partita #2 mvmt 5 Chaconne
2 - Rachmaninoff: Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini (piano & orch)
3 - Beethoven: Piano Sonata #32 Op. 111 mvmt 2 Arietta
4 - Bach: Goldberg Variations (harpsichord)
5 - Mozart: Piano Concerto #24 mvmt 3 Allegretto
6 - Haydn: String Quartet Op. 76 #3 "Emperor" mvmt 2 Poco adagio; cantabile
7 - Bach: Passacaglia and Fugue in C minor, BWV 582 (organ)
8 - Haydn: Symphony #31 "Hornsignal" mvmt 4 Finale: moderato
9 - Haydn: Variations in F minor (piano)
10 - Beethoven: String Quartet #14 Op. 131 mvmt 4 Andante ma non troppo

But where's Brahms' Haydn thingey? The finale to Beethoven's Op. 109???


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## Aarontastic (Feb 5, 2016)

I love T&V. I can understand not liking a particular composer's work in that style, but to not be able to find even one piece in that style good? Weird. So many excellent ones! One of my all-time favorite pieces is Brahms' variations on a theme by Handle (which I recommend to anyone who hasn't heard it). You make a good point about "restrictive creativity"; innovating within the confines of the form is part of what makes T&V exciting.


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

Variations are awesome and a great way to show a composers melodic, harmonic & rhythmic inventiveness. For a great set of variations check out any of Beethoven's many as he was the king of this form in my opinion. If you don't have time for the Diabellis, check out the 3rd movement of his piano sonata in E No. 30 Op. 109, or one of my favorites the 4th movement of his string quartet in c# No. 14 Op. 131.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

There are some great themes with variations, but the genre itself doesn't necessarily make my pulse quicken. The theme has to be memorable for this form to be effective or at least it needs to be printed out first, or else I end up forgetting what the theme was and getting lost in the results.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

I like passacaglias but generally have very little interest in the theme and variation format. Artful variation in the service of other formal objectives interests me a great deal.


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## Stirling (Nov 18, 2015)

I do, I write them myself. Of course the masterpieces are by Bach and Beethoven, but there are numerous good examples from Haydn going forward.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Less than I used to. I find works in that form wear on me more quickly.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Yes, many of my favorite works are in this style.

It's the most intuitive classical form there is, except maybe the strophic song. Everyone can hear what's going on.


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## manyene (Feb 7, 2015)

Yes - a great test of a composer's invention and ingenuity, rather like the fugue (another great test).


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## maestro267 (Jul 25, 2009)

I'm wondering if anyone has written a really substantial set of variations for orchestra. There are a few piano sets that approach or exceed an hour in length, but the longest set for orchestra that I am aware of are Elgar's Enigma Variations, which last around 30 minutes.


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

Pugg said:


> Yes...............we do need another poll


:lol:
our forum mirrors main political events - presidential elections are approaching, why should we miss our polls here ? 

as for variations, I do enjoy many variations, my favorite are Goldberg variations, but overall other forms are more pleasing to me.


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