# What countries are the most important for Classical music?



## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

While it's a safe say that all of Europe is important in one way of another, what countries are _the_ most important in your opinion(s)?
I'd say Germany and Austria on one side, and Russia on the other-I got the impression the great composers, by both quantity and quality, came from these three countries, and Vienna is easily the most important city, it is nicknamed "city of music" with a reason!


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

France and Italy would normally be included too, at the top, in classical musical history, and even European cultural history (where Russia is somewhat behind). Depends on periods and genres, and geographical areas of influence.


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

joen_cph said:


> France and Italy would normally be included too, at the top, in classical musical history, and even European cultural history (where Russia is somewhat behind). Depends on periods and genres, and geographical areas of influence.


Ballet was originally from Renaissance Italy, but eventually made it to be very important with Russia.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

I agree, as regards early 20th century, but in the 17th-19th century, ballet was very much French and not Russian.


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

joen_cph said:


> I agree, as regards early 20th century, but in the 17th-19th century, ballet was very much French and not Russian.


Could you point to some differences between French and Russian ballet, and name some good French ballet works?


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Well, 19th-century ballets aren't my cup of tea, I find them un-interesting, besides Tchaikovsky (!). 
I think Russian ballet, like Russian imperial culture, was originally much influenced by French ballet. The primitivism and exoticism of the Ballets Russes in the early 20th century (Stravinsky etc.) however established an influence the other way.

But many of the big ballet names of the 19th century and ballets included in operas were French.

Earlier on, the court of Versailles had a developed ballet culture, musically quite in line with instrumental music there generally (which I tend to like).

It's a big subject; Wikipedia of course has a summarizing article, but it seems fragmentary.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ballet
Also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ballet
http://michaelminn.net/andros/history/french_ballet_at_the_end_of_the_19th_century/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_ballet


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

I'd say England, but I'm probably 400 years out of date on that! Some of us still see The United Kingdom as an integral part of Europe too. Tragedy that we're only 48%

The Czechs and the Hungarians have done disproportionately well, I'd politely suggest....

.... nowadays it's that big country called Scandinavia which seems to be doing awfully well. :tiphat:

If you want a weird and wonderful baroque French ballet, try Rebel's Les Elemens. The opening "Chaos" section is scarily 20th century!!!!


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

CnC Bartok said:


> I'd say England, but I'm probably 400 years out of date on that! Some of us still see The United Kingdom as an integral part of Europe too. Tragedy that we're only 48%
> 
> The Czechs and the Hungarians have done disproportionately well, I'd politely suggest....
> 
> ...


England does disproportionately well in rock music, and Scandinavia in metal


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Some of the most well-known French ballets/ballet arrangements from the 20th century are:

- Ravel: Daphnis & Chloe etc.
- Satie: Parade etc.
- Debussy: Jeux + Khamma + Prelude a l'Apres Midi ...
- Poulenc: Aubade + Les Biches
- Milhaud: Le Boeuf sur le Toit + La Creation du Monde etc.
- Schmitt: La Tragedie de Salome, etc.
- Dutilleux: Le Loup
- Roussel: Le Festin d´Araignee

There are also some by Sauguet, Ibert, Jolivet, Auric, Hahn, Ohana, Markevitch, Tansman, Prodromides, Francaix etc. etc.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Are we talking long ago or now? For the last 100 years the United States must be included among the most important. It was the US and it's pro-capitalistic system that allowed radio to flourish, where many people heard classical for the first time thanks to live broadcasts with the likes of Toscanini. Later Bernard Herrmann and Morton Gould and others presented classics to the masses. And can't forget the impact of the Metropolitan Opera broadcasts.

Then came TV and fortunately there were leaders then who believed that TV had an obligation to propagate good music - we had the NBC Symphony. Then CBS had the wonderful series with Leonard Bernstein.

The recording industry was dominated by Columbia and RCA, both pouring vast amounts of money into recording the greatest orchestras and conductors alive at the time. Every month, dozens of new records would be turned out.

During WWII many European composers, pianists, violinists, conductors, singers fled their homelands for their own safety. If the US hadn't offered them safe harbor, we'd be so much poorer for it. Klemperer, Walter, Heifetz, Horowitz, Stravinsky, Rachmaninoff, Korngold, Toch, Varese, Zemlinsky...and so many more. There's a terrific book, A Windfall of Musicians, that is eye-opening.

Then there were our great orchestras that undeniably set the world standards for performance. The Big 5 deserved their reputation and all were led by immigrants: New York (Toscanini, Walter, Mitropolous et al), Boston (Koussevitsky, Monteux, Munch), Phildelphia (Stokowski, Ormandy), Chicago (Kubelik, Reiner, Martinon), Cleveland (Rodzinski, Leinsdorf, Szell).

Unfortunately, it didn't last. Classical music is vanishing on the airwaves. TV broadcasts are gone. Many of the immigrants, showing a stunning lack of gratitude, returned to Europe. Classical music recording in the US is practically gone. Orchestral quality around the world has caught up and in many cases surpassed the Big 5.

Nowadays, classical is dominated by Germany, England, and China. There are 120 professional orchestras in Germany, many of them first-rate. Opera houses abound. Largely supported by the taxpayers who wouldn't have it any other way. Classical broadcasts on TV and radio are doing well. In England, the BBC3 is still active, London still has far more than its fair share of world-class orchestras, and the recording biz there is hanging on. China's love affair with classical is amazing - they can't seem to get enough of it. To a lesser extent, the classics are thriving in Austria, Russia, Italy, Finland and France.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

I quite agree with a good deal of your points, though the OP seems to be focused on Europe.

Regarding Radio orchestras, they began early in Europe. It's not an area I know much about, but I checked the NBC Symphony Orchestra which had its first broadcast in 1937; 
our Danish Radio Symphony Orchestra began broadcasts in 1911, with big orchestras in 1931 (contemporary with the beginning of Metropolitan broadcasts in the US) and our locally famous series of ambitious classical "Thursday Concerts", still going on, was begun in 1933. 
The Berlin Radio Symphony Orchestra began concerts in 1923, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_radio_orchestras
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Opera_radio_broadcasts

Regarding composers, China has almost nothing of international fame yet, except from Tan Dun, who isn't that important anyway. But this may change somewhat, though the Chinese cultural policy doesn't stimulate much innovation at all.

I think that in my country, Scandinavian, American, German, British and - mostly dead - Russian and East European composers tend to dominate contemporary concerts. But as regards the British after Britten, it's not that many (Ades, maybe M. Davies, Birtwistle or Turnage).


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

well thinik about it, germany/austria (same deal, cousins) (1st cousins, if not brothers), 
Bach
Mozart Beethoven
Henze
the BIG 3 2nd Viennese, huf said.
USA has only Elliott Carter, Sweden has only Pettersson, 
France has *only* Ravel/Debussy
nuf said.


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

Wow, I didn’t know France only had Debussy and Ravel. Incredible how such great composers emerged from an artistic vacuum like turn-of-the-century Paris.


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## SalieriIsInnocent (Feb 28, 2008)

Austria, Germany, Italy, France, England, and Russia are where the bulk of the music I listen to comes from.


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## MrMeatScience (Feb 15, 2015)

mbhaub said:


> To a lesser extent, the classics are thriving in Austria, Russia, Italy, Finland and France.


I'm not sure I'm onboard with this -- from where I am, classical music seems to be doing incredibly well in Austria, Vienna in particular. Just recently at the Sommernachtskonzert we had something like 85.000 people out. A lot of tourists, in fairness, but I don't see classical concerts boasting those sorts of numbers very frequently.. There are also countless regional orchestras that play well enough and keep the concert schedules full to bursting -- any given day at the Musikverein or the Konzerthaus there will be a concert, and it's not uncommon for there to be 3 or 4 or 5 (these regional orchestras often play rare/contemporary repertoire too -- I saw some Ustvolskaya earlier in the year). The Staatsoper performs ~350 shows a year. Especially if you're a wind player, it's very difficult to even get a spot in the community orchestras, as there are too many people jockeying for position. It's a very exciting place to be for classical music, and I don't think that'll change anytime soon.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

England has Ralph Vaughan Williams, 
America has Carter, Hungary has Bela Bartok. 
Czech has ??
Poland has Szymanowski.
Germany has 
Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, Wagner, Henze, Hartman.


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

Littlephrase1913 said:


> Wow, I didn't know France only had Debussy and Ravel. Incredible how such great composers emerged from an artistic vacuum like turn-of-the-century Paris.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriel_Fauré


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

1. Germany
2. Austria
3. Italy
4. France
5. Russia
6. Britain
7. USA possibly


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

paulbest said:


> England has Ralph Vaughan Williams,
> America has Carter, Hungary has Bela Bartok.
> Czech has ??
> Poland has Szymanowski.
> ...


The Czechs have Janacek, Dvorak, Martinu, Smetana and Zelenka.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Littlephrase1913 said:


> The Czechs have Janacek, Dvorak, Martinu, Smetana and Zelenka.


I will add that Vienna and other musical centers were crawling in the classical days with "Bohemians" with names like Cannabich, Gyrowetz, Kozeluch, Myslivecek, and Wranitsky. Beethoven was a fan, saying "The Bohemians are born musicians. The Italians ought to take them as models."


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

For the 1st place, the shop is already closed and no conversation to be done: Deutschland! Only because of Bach and nobody else. He is the Father of the classical music, the one who everybody follows. 

For the second place, I will vote for Austria! From Mozart to Bruckner and to New Vienna School, the guys are producing true musical civilization.

For the third place, I will choose the Bloody Russians. Unbelievable tradition, great composers, a very wide musical variety and, of course, very important soloists and directors. Only with Schnittke (despite he is German) are established as music super power.

For the fourth place I go to England. So many great composers. So many. If you have one Vaughan Williams, one Parry, one William Wallace etc. you are a classical music nation.

For the place No.5, I vote France. Lully, Berlioz, Bizet, Franck, Faurre, etc. Music novelty, quality and grace. The French are top.

Place number six: USA. The new super power. Good past, better present, best future. The Amis are loving the music (the best conservatories in the world are in the States) and this speak of it's self. Great, great music country.

For the 7th place, I will go Tschechien. Many great composers, many great directors, many great soloists. Deep tradition. 

For place No.8, Poland. I love the Polish School! From the divine Chopin to great Karlowitz, the Polen are piece of the classical music. 

For place No.9: Italy! The opera is opera. It isn't classic music. But because of Scarlatti and some other, quite modern composers, I could say that Italy is among the great music nations.

Place No. 10: Hungary! Only because of Liszt, despite the fact that my Master was German. Untill his death was not capable to say one Hungarian word. But, yes, he had Magyar blood and for this reason also Hungary is among the noble musical countries.

Place 11th. A club of countries, like Spain, Greece, Japan, Canada, Portugal, Finland and Brasil. All with important contribution to classical (better serious) music. 

Special mention: Israel! With so many great composers and soloists having Ebraico Blood, I could say that, unofficially, the Israelis are among the first five musical nations in history. Unbelievable people!


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## Colin M (May 31, 2018)

A difficult conversation about opinions which I agree depends a lot on epochs of time and political outcomes. 

But I will humbly offer that thing we call Russia, Czar, through Soviet Union, until collapse has offered the most compelling music of the past 150 years. One simply has to put on a late 1880s piece by Tchaikovsky or a distressed symphony by DSCH to realize the musical energy coming from this country. And you add Pictures at an Exhibition with a kind nod toward France or Borodin or Stravinsky or Prokofiev or Rachmaninov or the great orchestras and conductors and you can’t go wrong.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

MrMeatScience said:


> I'm not sure I'm onboard with this -- from where I am, classical music seems to be doing incredibly well in Austria, Vienna in particular. Just recently at the Sommernachtskonzert we had something like 85.000 people out. A lot of tourists, in fairness, but I don't see classical concerts boasting those sorts of numbers very frequently.. There are also countless regional orchestras that play well enough and keep the concert schedules full to bursting -- any given day at the Musikverein or the Konzerthaus there will be a concert, and it's not uncommon for there to be 3 or 4 or 5 (these regional orchestras often play rare/contemporary repertoire too -- I saw some Ustvolskaya earlier in the year). The Staatsoper performs ~350 shows a year. Especially if you're a wind player, it's very difficult to even get a spot in the community orchestras, as there are too many people jockeying for position. It's a very exciting place to be for classical music, and I don't think that'll change anytime soon.


That's good to hear!


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

paulbest said:


> England has Ralph Vaughan Williams,
> America has Carter, Hungary has Bela Bartok.
> *Czech has ??*
> Poland has Szymanowski.
> ...


You should throw away anything in your current or planned activities and start exploring Janacek, Dvorak, Smetana and Martinu, all considered composers of international stature.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

CnC Bartok said:


> I'd say England, but I'm probably 400 years out of date on that! Some of us still see The United Kingdom as an integral part of Europe too. Tragedy that we're only 48%
> 
> The Czechs and the Hungarians have done disproportionately well, I'd politely suggest....
> 
> ...


Britain will remain a european nation no matter what.

Not every european nation is a member of the eu


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

mbhaub said:


> Are we talking long ago or now? For the last 100 years the United States must be included among the most important. It was the US and it's pro-capitalistic system that allowed radio to flourish, where many people heard classical for the first time thanks to live broadcasts with the likes of Toscanini. Later Bernard Herrmann and Morton Gould and others presented classics to the masses. And can't forget the impact of the Metropolitan Opera broadcasts.
> 
> Then came TV and fortunately there were leaders then who believed that TV had an obligation to propagate good music - we had the NBC Symphony. Then CBS had the wonderful series with Leonard Bernstein.
> 
> ...


Equal to the UK - dont forget HMV/EMI/Philips/ Decca with predominantly UK orchestras on those labels in the 50s - 70s.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriel_Fauré


Littlephrase1913 was ironic, France has an incredible amount of amazing composers. To me it's without a doubt my favorite country for classical music.


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## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

paulbest said:


> England has Ralph Vaughan Williams,
> America has Carter, Hungary has Bela Bartok.
> Czech has ??
> Poland has Szymanowski.
> ...


That's an insult to the Czech's. Look it up on Wikipedia.


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## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

In the U.S., if the Baltimore/Washington area has a hard time supporting symphony orchestras (Baltimore Symphony and National Philharmonic) public money is desperately needed or money from the private sector.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

If it is about composers then it is between Britain, Russia, France, Italy and Germany:

- Top flight composers from Britain include Purcell, Elgar, Vaughan Williams and (probably the greatest among them) Britten. After Britten there are several who could easily become established as belonging to the top flight.

- Russia can manage Tchaikovsky, Shostakovich, Prokofiev and Stravinsky. Stravinsky might count for a lot but how Russian was his music and life? Russia was certainly important to him.

- France had many - although it is more difficult to pick out the top flight ones - like Rameau, Saint-Saens (?), Debussy, Ravel, Messiaen. Certainly Messiaen must count for a lot, as must Debussy. And after Messiaen there are many who could become established as among the very greatest. 

- Italy had Monteverdi, Vivaldi, Verdi ...

- Germany had many of the greatest (Bach, Handel, Haydn, Beethoven, Brahms, Wagner ...) and ought to be an easy win but things tapered off in the 20th Century (there was Strauss ...). 

Germany must win! Second place should probably go to France.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Fabulin said:


> 6. Britain
> 7. USA possibly


Tie
RVW /Elliott Carter
1/1


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

The UK has Birtwistle, who can give Carter a run for his crotchets.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Littlephrase1913 said:


> The Czechs have Janacek, Dvorak, Martinu, Smetana and Zelenka.


I'll grant you Dvorak as the greatest, The others, sorry, 
I prefer KALABIS over the others you mention,,,although he does not have much, a few of his syms are pretty interesting and he is 20th C, huge bonus points there.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

mikeh375 said:


> The UK has Birtwistle, who can give Carter a run for his crotchets.




look i don't want to start any war here...so stop shooting spit balls across the big pond.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

hah, got you and Elliot runnin' scared eh?...


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Obviously, personal taste has become the main factor in entries, not that of a country's general influence in classical music composing and culture. That's fine, I'd personally then lower Italy's position and prefer say the Scandinavians and the Czechs.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

joen_cph said:


> Obviously, personal taste has become the main factor in entries, not that of a country's general influence in classical music composing and culture. That's fine, I'd personally then lower Italy's position and prefer say the Czechs.


it depends on what period you consider. If Renaissance or Middle Ages, then Italy rules over most other countries including Germany (think Monteverdi, Landini etc). Czech Composers were big late baroque, classical and romantic. In the modernist period, Austrians, Americans.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

mikeh375 said:


> The UK has Birtwistle, who can give Carter a run for his crotchets.


And Peter Maxwell Davies.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Jacck said:


> it depends on what period you consider. If Renaissance or Middle Ages, then Italy rules over most other countries including Germany (think Monteverdi, Landini etc). Czech Composers were big late baroque, classical and romantic. In the modernist period, Austrians, Americans.


It seems to that you are reversing my point; I started talking about general influence, but since the thread has changed somewhat, I now gave some examples of my personal taste.

But to stick to your points, Italian music life had greater, general cultural influence in the 19th century (via operas), than say the Czechs. And they had greater influence in post-1945 music than Austria (Berio, Nono, Maderna, Sciarrino, who however partly evolved from the Darmstadt school in Germany, and thus some of the earlier Austrian trends. Scelsi has also become influential lately, it seems).


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

joen_cph said:


> It seems to that you are reversing my point; I started talking about general influence, but since the thread has changed somewhat, I now gave some examples of my personal taste.
> 
> But to stick to your points, Italian music life had greater, general cultural influence in the 19th century (via operas), than say the Czechs. And they had greater influence in post-1945 music than Austria (Berio, Nono, Maderna, Sciarrino, who however partly evolved from the Darmstadt school in Germany, and thus some of the earlier Austrian trends).


yes, it also depends on the genre. Italians were huge in opera, but pretty lame in symphonies. (the same goes for the French)


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Jacck said:


> yes, it also depends on the genre. Italians were huge in opera, but pretty lame in symphonies. (the same goes for the French)


I agree, there's little of interest in the Italian symphonic tradition, the French have more though. Biggest innovations maybe by Berio, Franck, Messiaen and Bancquart (whom I don't know much about). The French have more to offer than the most well-known repertoire of theirs.


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

paulbest said:


> I'll grant you Dvorak as the greatest, The others, sorry,
> I prefer KALABIS over the others you mention,,,although he does not have much, a few of his syms are pretty interesting and he is 20th C, huge bonus points there.


Well, it's hard for me to judge Kalabis, considering there's scarcely any of his music in circulation. But Janacek and Martinu are great favorites of mine, especially the former.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Just for fun, my top 10 (quick and dirty, may miss some names). Composers listed are my five faves per country (in order).

1 Germany (Bach, Brahms, Wagner, Mendelssohn, Strauss)
2 Austria (Mahler, Schubert, Mozart, Bruckner, Schmidt)
3 France (Ravel, Debussy, Faure, Berlioz, Saint-Saens)
4 UK (Bax, Moeran, Vaughan Williams, Britten, Finzi)
5 Russia (Shostakovich, Gubaidulina, Tchaikovsky, Prokofiev, Mussorgsky)
6 Finland (Sibelius, Rautavaara, Sallinen, Aho, Saariaho)
7 Czechia (Dvorak, Suk, Martinu, Janacek, Smetana)
8 Poland (Chopin, Gorecki, Karlowicz, Panufnik, Szymanovski)
9 USA (Barber, Ives, Corigliano, Adams (J), Schuman)
10 Italy (Respighi, Puccini, Berio, Scelsi, Donizetti)


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

Enthusiast said:


> If it is about composers then it is between Britain, Russia, France, Italy and Germany:
> 
> - Top flight composers from Britain include Purcell, Elgar, Vaughan Williams and (probably the greatest among them) Britten. After Britten there are several who could easily become established as belonging to the top flight.
> 
> ...


:lol: This is the MOST German thing I read in our community! You made my day, my dearest! :tiphat:

(music is NOT a field for any ''superiority competition'' Who is the best is very relative... Important is ALL the countries to contribute to music development and involvement, with good general education and quality conservatories. In this field (this is an example) Finland is better than Germany. USA is better too. And, now we are speaking, Japan, is the capital of classical music and the most promising director worldwide is the Greek Freak Theodoros...)

Very nice thread. Many thanks to the author.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Art Rock said:


> Just for fun, my top 10 (quick and dirty, may miss some names). Composers listed are my five faves per country (in order).
> 
> 1 Germany (Bach, Brahms, Wagner, Mendelssohn, Strauss)
> 2 Austria (Mahler, Schubert, Mozart, Bruckner, Schmidt)
> ...


Glad somebody finally recognises Josef Suk as one of the great Czech composers

I will never ever get used to this horrible Czechia thing, though.......it just sounds awful, awful.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Important for the growth of classical music: Mainland China, Japan, and South Korea.


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## BabyGiraffe (Feb 24, 2017)

It looks like many people in this thread don't know much about evolution and trends in old music, because some of their favourite German, Austrian and French composers were basically recycling... Italian styles.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

birth, middle age, old age, all things must pass, says the wise man. 
Italy was the birth place. 
I hear Schnittke and Elliott Carter and yes even Pettersson as *international style music*. 
even universal, having no boundaries nor place.Embracing all cultures.


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

Allow me to put in a word for Belgium (or Flanders as it was then known) of the 15th and 16th centuries: Du Fay, Binchois, Ockeghem, Agricola, Obrecht, Josquin, Richafort, Gombert, Rore, Willaert, Lassus...that's as extraordinary an output of composers as Germany of the 18th and 19th. Unfortunately they haven't been quite as prolific since!


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Gallus said:


> Allow me to put in a word for Belgium (or Flanders as it was then known) of the 15th and 16th centuries: Du Fay, Binchois, Ockeghem, Agricola, Obrecht, Josquin, Richafort, Gombert, Rore, Willaert, Lassus...that's as extraordinary an output of composers as Germany of the 18th and 19th. Unfortunately they haven't been quite as prolific since!


Same with painting, btw.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

BabyGiraffe said:


> It looks like many people in this thread don't know much about evolution and trends in old music, because some of their favourite German, Austrian and French composers were basically recycling... Italian styles.


And ....? Recycling? Really? Or "influenced by"?


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

The answer is Spain. If Spain did not exist, it would have to be invented as a musical subject/focus for any number of Russian, French, Italian, German (and Spanish) composers.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

An old thread about the neglect of Spain:
https://www.talkclassical.com/23184-spain-least-musically-talented.html?highlight=benguerel


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

norman bates said:


> Littlephrase1913 was ironic, France has an incredible amount of amazing composers. To me it's without a doubt my favorite country for classical music.


I got that, but how could you mention Ravel without his mentor? I'm getting Faure's Requiem on CD later this month, Mozart's Requiem is basic and I've addended a concert of Verdi's Requiem last month, I'm certain I'll love Faure's Requiem too; opinion(s)?


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Faure's requiem is such a lovely work. It was also revolutionary in not giving us a big public display - including a graphic depiction of the departed facing judgment - but rather being an apparently private piece that seems to fit the actual mood of mourners grieving over the loss of a loved one. I love the Mozart and the Verdi but I wouldn't want either as a piece to play at the funeral of someone I loved.


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

Enthusiast said:


> Faure's requiem is such a lovely work. It was also revolutionary in not giving us a big public display - including a graphic depiction of the departed facing judgment - but rather being an apparently private piece that seems to fit the actual mood of mourners grieving over the loss of a loved one. I love the Mozart and the Verdi but I wouldn't want either as a piece to play at the funeral of someone I loved.


Anything else by Faure if I like this one?


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## AeolianStrains (Apr 4, 2018)

Am I the only one thinking this thread is a bit anachronistic and blurs the line between ethnicity and nationality quite a bit?


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

AeolianStrains said:


> Am I the only one thinking this thread is a bit anachronistic and blurs the line between ethnicity and nationality quite a bit?


can you please further explain


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2019)

I believe that English composers have made a very big contribution to classical music down the ages. I wouldn't wish to make any definitive claims, but I'd guess that in terms of possessing a long pedigree the English classical musical scene is as good as any other, if not better overall. 

I would agree that in the late classical and early romantic period (1770-1820) English composers were overshadowed by German and Austrian composers but outside that 50 year period they are well represented.

- In the 15th C there was John Dunstable who wrote some good church music

- In the 16th C to early 17th C there was a proliferation of very good composers, eg: Dowland, Tallis, Byrd, Gibbons, Taverner

- In the later 17th C, there was Purcell, who some regard as among the greatest of all English composers and an outstanding figure of his day

- In the 18th C, Handel (of German origin but whose main home became England and where he wrote most of his most famous works) was an obviously outstanding figure in the baroque period. 

- In the late 18th C to early 19th C period there was obviously no-one to match the calibre of the best German/Austrian composers of that period, but there were a few who wrote some decent material, eg Arne, Boyce, Clementi

- In the second half of the 19th C into the early part of the 20th C there was a range of very good composers: Elgar, Delius, Parry to mention a few. Some of the best English church music was written in this period. (Elgar has become increasingly over recent years one of my favourite composers of all).

- In the period from the early 20th C onwards there have been many good composers, eg: Vaughan Williams, Walton, Bax, Arnold, Bridge Rebecca Clarke, Moeran, Britten, Bliss.

I'd say that I've come to regard English music as my overall favourite based on country of origin.


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## numinisgos (May 10, 2017)

joen_cph said:


> and even European cultural history (where Russia is somewhat behind)..


Russia is somewhat behind in cultural history? a serious understatement.

As far as 19th century prose is concerned the likes of Gogol, Turgenev, Dostoevsky,Tolstoy, Chekhov suffice to put Russia far and above any other country. Moving forward to the first 30 years of the 20th century and remaining within the field of poetry Akhmatova, Blok, Mandelstam, Yesenin, Mayakovsky, Tsvetaeva, Pasternak sets Russia at least on par with the Anglo-American modernists which flowered during the early/late 20's.

Anyway back to music.

Proceeding chronologically Italy: 15th & 16th century polyphony, England has also a share in 16th century. France: 17th century Baroque. Germany and Austria mid 18th up to late 20th with Brahms' death (1897) marking the closure of their relative dominion. Russia for the next forty years.

I reckon that places 1 & 2 justifiably belong to Germany & Austria.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

If I look at it from a purely subjective perspective, ie disregarding historical impact and influence etc., then my two favorite countries for CM are Germany and Russia. Germany for the big 3 (Bach, Beethoven, Brahms), and Russia for so many wonderful romantic and early modern composers (Tchaikovsky, Rimsky-Korsakov, Mussorgsky, Medtner, Rachmaninov, Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Scriabin, Weinberg). 3rd I would place the Austro-Hungarian empire. Then would come France and England. I do not know which one is better, I like them about equally, France for Lully, Rameau, Charpentier, Berlioz, Saint Saens, England for Purcell, Elgar, RVW, Britten. Then would come Italy, especially for opera and Renaissance music (Monteverdi). Then would come USA, where the best ones are Carter, Beach, Ives, Bernstein, Gershwin. And then would come other countries like Spain, Brazil, Romania, Armenia etc. Out of all the unknown countries, I would highlight Armenia and Georgia as the most underrated.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

numinisgos said:


> Russia is somewhat behind in cultural history? a serious understatement.
> 
> As far as 19th century prose is concerned the likes of Gogol, Turgenev, Dostoevsky,Tolstoy, Chekhov suffice to put Russia far and above any other country. Moving forward to the first 30 years of the 20th century and remaining within the field of poetry Akhmatova, Blok, Mandelstam, Yesenin, Mayakovsky, Tsvetaeva, Pasternak sets Russia at least on par with the Anglo-American modernists which flowered during the early/late 20's.


Russia is really backwards in the development of civil society, human rights and the political system. They go from one dictator to another. From serfdom under the tsars into leninism, stalinism and now putinism. It is really sad, because as the music, literature or even some of their scientific achievements show, they are capable of great things. Only they are hindered by the fact, that they cannot develop a normal functioning state and must live in a constant cespool of corruption.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

numinisgos said:


> Russia is somewhat behind in cultural history? a serious understatement.
> 
> As far as 19th century prose is concerned the likes of Gogol, Turgenev, Dostoevsky,Tolstoy, Chekhov suffice to put Russia far and above any other country. Moving forward to the first 30 years of the 20th century and remaining within the field of poetry Akhmatova, Blok, Mandelstam, Yesenin, Mayakovsky, Tsvetaeva, Pasternak sets Russia at least on par with the Anglo-American modernists which flowered during the early/late 20's.
> 
> ...


I agree and am aware of the qualities of Russian literature in the 19th century. In my post I was talking about general, cultural influence, where, in the 19th century, French, German and British literature had wider circulation and bigger influence in most of Europe. It is not easy to find non-Russian composers using texts by Russian authors in the 19th century as much as you find the use of Goethe, Heine, Hugo, Byron etc.; but I'd be interested in examples. Janacek's use of Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky was well into the 20th century, for example, and Pushkin wasn't used much either.

In avant-garde terms, Russian artists belonged to the top at least since the 1890s and in some cases even before, but a lot of the progressive artists took up trends from Western Europe. Russia was one of the most exciting places to be at all in the 1920s, if you could live with the social contrasts. Musically, both as regards composers and institutional thinking, as well as for aesthetical discussions; that's also why some major, openminded Western conductors toured there in the early USSR, before Stalin's take-over (Scherchen, Klemperer etc etc), Western AvantGarde music was played there, and you had experimental orchestras like PERSIMFANS, that tried to work as a collective without conductor, and so on.

As regards the many interesting 20th century, USSR/Russian composers, it is difficult to find Western or Central-European composers inspired directly by them; a good deal also decided to settle in Western Europe in stead. Scriabin and Stravinsky were partly an exception, though they borrowed a bit as well. The futurists had Italian brothers etc. too, but Mosolov's 'Iron Foundry', Abramov's 'Symphony of Factory Sirens' and Malevitch/Matyushin's 'Victory Over the Sun' (1913) were rather special, for example.

I'm not aware of Western composers much inspired by Denisov, Gubaidulina or Schnittke, all went abroad, maybe there are a few. Polystylism and post-modernism also existed in the West, but Schnittke is probably the best bet for an influencer among them, Denisov's style was very personal and repetitive & I don't know of others sounding like him.

From the 30s, and especially between 1948-85 or so, the concept of Socialist Realism had a bit of factual influence westwards, obviously.

And more recently you've had a few composers like Tavener interested in Russian beliefs and culture, later in Akhmatova, etc.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

numinisgos said:


> Anyway back to music.
> 
> Proceeding chronologically Italy: 15th & 16th century polyphony, England has also a share in 16th century. France: 17th century Baroque. Germany and Austria mid 18th up to late 20th with Brahms' death (1897) marking the closure of their relative dominion. Russia for the next forty years.
> 
> I reckon that places 1 & 2 justifiably belong to Germany & Austria.


Excellent summary, captures the essence of the music lifeforce flow throughout the ages. 
which leads me to my above statement that the fruit and flowering of the romantic tradition was exhibited in several composers. 
Wagner of course,,,but mainly Debussy, Ravel, Szymanowski and Scriabin. The most significant 4 of the group.
Rimsky was good, but nothing great. Mussorgsky was saved by Ravel. 
Then the last fruits of the tradition ripened in a few major late 20TH C, composers, whose music is truly international, which completes the whole. 
This is to say, in the beginnings, early Italian baroque was just that of Italy, early french baroque, of france, early german baroque, of germany, of England, englanish in sound. Each country had a distinct signature. 
It is only in the coda to this grand tradition which allows a few composers to stand out as truly supra-national, with no ethnic boundaries. 
Schnittke is , at times, high russian orthodox in his religious thematic material, yet he is also many times, universal, that is above earth, of the galaxy. 
Of all composers, it is my belief that Schnittke would be most favored among the inhabitants of other galaxies. 
Stockhausen is not international, when you consider how complex it is, germanic in nature, Whereas Carter is international. I am glad Carter is born of american soil, and not british. 
Although the Brits want to promote their *Elliott* as a answer to Carter, so far every composer mentioned, has fallen short. 
Not sure why they are jealous, as i say Elliott Carter is INTERnational, they too share in his creativity. 
Carter has roots which extend to his english ancestors. 
His music has supra -national. 
So don;t be so envious.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Jacck said:


> Russia is really backwards in the development of civil society, human rights and the political system. They go from one dictator to another. From serfdom under the tsars into leninism, stalinism and now putinism. It is really sad, because as the music, literature or even some of their scientific achievements show, they are capable of great things. Only they are hindered by the fact, that they cannot develop a normal functioning state and must live in a constant cespool of corruption.


Excellent post, oh the music we could have had from Prokofiev and especially from Shostakovich had russia not been so evil. 
Russia is today a mafia, it is 100% corrupt and if anyone complains ,too loudly.., off to the gulag. 
Not sure why the USA even maintains any relation with the mafia,,,of yeah its the only dictator trump can speak with with, as mafia chief to mafia chief,,they get along well. 
Putin is more polished of the 2. 
Trump is no stateman, which is why he likes Putin. 
also the USA has to maintain some relation for oil/gas and also b/c russia has lots of nasty bombs, which ina fit of anger, they might shoot one at all the countries they are at war with. 
so yeah, russia is russia and that will never change, Be thankful we have Schnittke from *mother russia*. although he claims he is more german than russian. 
Germany did not produce even one great composer, post 1950, even post 1940. 
Schnittke is more EAST german , he is certianly not west german. As I say germany 's last great composer was karl Hartman.
after him, germany is and has been bankrupt on great composers.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Jacck said:


> If I look at it from a purely subjective perspective, England for Purcell, Elgar, RVW, Britten. . Then would come USA, where the best ones are Carter, Beach, Ives, Bernstein, Gershwin. .


I have serious issues with everything in this quote. 
Why group great with lesser?
Everything about planet earth is concerning ACHIEVEMENT. 
In every area of life it is so, , why should music be any different?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

paulbest said:


> As I say germany 's last great composer was karl Hartman.
> after him, germany is and has been bankrupt on great composers.


Karl Hartmann (1905-1963) the last? I've seen a few people very enthusiastic over Hans Werner Henze (1926-2012). Maybe you should check him out?


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

USSR / Russia: Nikolaj Obuchov, Ivan Wyschnegradsky, Sergej Protopopov, Alexander Mosolov, etc. The guys are producing composers like crazy. (This is Soviet Avant Garde or Soviet Futurismus or I don't know what, but the fact is that they are producing MUSIC). Here in Germany, we are producing too. But in comparison with USA it is NOTHING.* The whole world together is producing NOTHING in comparison with USA. *Believe me and let us close this thread with the BIG TRUTH.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

numinisgos said:


> Russia is somewhat behind in cultural history? a serious understatement.
> 
> As far as 19th century prose is concerned the likes of Gogol, Turgenev, Dostoevsky,Tolstoy, *Chekhov suffice to put Russia far and above any other country.* Moving forward to the first 30 years of the 20th century and remaining within the field of poetry Akhmatova, Blok, Mandelstam, Yesenin, Mayakovsky, Tsvetaeva, Pasternak sets Russia at least on par with the Anglo-American modernists which flowered during the early/late 20's.
> 
> ...


I disagree with that. However Russia in the 19thC did make a fair contribution to world literature.


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## BabyGiraffe (Feb 24, 2017)

I think the only English composers that are somewhat famous abroad are Elgar and Holst (because of "The Planets"). Only British people think their composers have any popularity. (This doesn't mean that English composers are not good, but it seems that popularity equals "greatness" on this forum. In any country worldwide we can find really great music.)

Posts like this: " Germany did not produce even one great composer, post 1950, even post 1940. "
It is like you know all the German composers' works... That's laughable statement.
There were some youtube channels that upload "forgotten works" from the past. Who knows how many "masterpieces" were lost or never published, or never recognised by the critics/public...


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Jacck said:


> 3rd I would place the Austro-Hungarian empire.


Germany didn't exist back then in Bach and Beethoven's time. Austro-Hungarian Empire was a thing of the past like Napoleon. (Schumann, Mendelssohn were born in cities annexed by the First French Empire.) If we were to consider Handel English because he worked in London, Beethoven, Brahms would be Austrian because they worked in Vienna. Mozart was born when Salzburg was part of the Bavarian Circle, not Austro-Hungarian Empire. (He once called Germany his fatherland) It'd be better to categorize all Germans, Austrians as 'Germanic' because the line was blurry back then.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

----------------


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

hammeredklavier said:


> Germany didn't exist back then in Bach and Beethoven's time. Austro-Hungarian Empire was a thing of the past like Napoleon. (Schumann, Mendelssohn were born in cities annexed by the First French Empire.) If we were to consider Handel English because he worked in London, Beethoven, Brahms would be Austrian because they worked in Vienna. Mozart was born when Salzburg was part of the Bavarian Circle, not Austro-Hungarian Empire. (He once called Germany his fatherland) It'd be better to categorize all Germans, Austrians as 'Germanic' because the line was blurry back then.


sure, there are serious problems with the attribution of nationality. Was Mahler Czech, Austrian or Jewish? Was Liszt Hungerian, Austrian or French? Was Handel German or English? Was Lully Italian or French? etc. Some states that existed in the past do not exist anymore. 
But Germany (united under Bismarck) and Austria-Hungary were bitter rivals that waged frequent wars against each other. There are pretty big cultural differences between Austria and Germany even now, which might be imperceptible to those, who are not familiar with these countries.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Art Rock said:


> Karl Hartmann (1905-1963) the last? I've seen a few people very enthusiastic over Hans Werner Henze (1926-2012). Maybe you should check him out?


Problem with this germany/Henze connection is this, He was kindly escorted off the premises by the authorities. , So he packed his bags and left for Italy, early on in his creative path.
So like with Schnittke, who is either a russian composer or german, who is to say? I consider Henze less german and more International/Italian. 
This is what i was reference idea, Karl Hartman was german/austrian in his music. 
I do not recognize Stockhausen as a classical composer, as he relied quite often on electronic instrumentation. Sure i do acknowledge Varese as the father of modern sounds, as he uses some wind machines and other electronics, but nothing to the extent as Stockhausen. 
Henze remained in the classical traditions, as he states in his autobiography.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

BabyGiraffe said:


> I think the only English composers that are somewhat famous abroad are Elgar and Holst (because of "The Planets"). Only British people think their composers have any popularity. (This doesn't mean that English composers are not good, but it seems that popularity equals "greatness" on this forum. In any country worldwide we can find really great music.)
> 
> Posts like this: " Germany did not produce even one great composer, post 1950, even post 1940. "
> It is like you know all the German composers' works... That's laughable statement.
> There were some youtube channels that upload "forgotten works" from the past. Who knows how many "masterpieces" were lost or never published, or never recognised by the critics/public...


who knows, maybe i am wrong, But I am thinking of germany;s last 2 great composers, Karl Hartmann(1905-1963) and Hans Henze.

It is the footsteps of these 2 masters which dominate germany's mid/late 20TH C CM scene. 
Beats out austria, which composer has austria produced past 75 yrs, great?
England lays claim to a few which equal Elliott Carter, but i have my doubts there. 
France has which great composer past 75 yrs?
See what i am getting at here?


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## BabyGiraffe (Feb 24, 2017)

paulbest said:


> who knows, maybe i am wrong, But I am thinking of germany;s last 2 great composers, Karl Hartmann(1905-1963) and Hans Henze.
> 
> It is the footsteps of these 2 masters which dominate germany's mid/late 20TH C CM scene.
> Beats out austria, which composer has austria produced past 75 yrs, great?
> ...


Great is a big word.
Talkclassical's greatest composer is maybe Bach from what I get from posts, but the guy was neither original, nor being exceptional in all compositional aspects - let's just say that rhythms in early European classical music are pretty trivial, so this remark doesn't concern only Bach...
Today to be accepted to be great, you have to be very original and master in everything (including rhythm), so Bach shouldn't even be anywhere near more capable composers than him, right?

And the most important part to be considered great - becoming somehow POPULAR. It is not hard to find music that sounds identical (or better than) to beloved Mozart, Beethoven or Bach that gets zero recognition, because the composers are not cult figures in modern pop/classical culture (let's be honest all of these guys composed so many pieces that it is impossible all their material to be of highest quality - Beethoven's dance music for example is a complete joke)

There are like 80 000 000 people in Germany alone today, what about all other countries around the world? - If you think that there are no decent composers among them, you are lying yourself.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

BabyGiraffe said:


> And the most important part to be considered great - becoming somehow POPULAR. It is not hard to find music that sounds identical (or better than) to beloved Mozart, Beethoven or Bach that gets zero recognition,


It's impossible to find.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

No I agree in part, There may indeed be some hidden/unknowns/unrecognized great composers there in austria, germany, england, france, past 10 or 20 yrs, who just needa break. 
Consider Henze, How often do you see his music on USA concert programs, well there ya go, And Pettersson? another completely neglected in the USA concert forum. 
I wonder how mahy orch members in the USA know/have heard all of Schnittke, Pettersson/Henze music. 
You would expect the most interest would be found in that community. \
But who knows, maybe not. 
Point is, if these majors are hardly known, how would the relatively minor greats to become better known/heard? 
Lets just admit it now, Bach , Beethoven, maybe perhaps Mozart, rule the roost. 
Then you have 2nd tiers, Brahms, etcf etc, Tchaikovsky, etc, then 3rd tiers, ,,give the people what THEY WANT,,,so the trickle down theory goes,,,*in order to keep ticket sales up in a dying attendance, lets give them Beethoven*, and you know it has worked and continues to work. But eventually the magical formula might not sell the tickets. , 
'Then what?
Its all about the money right now, what sells. 
Beethoven sells. 

There may indeed be some composers in europe who just need a chance to voi9ce their creative music. 
But then I would say Henze and Pettersson should be programmed ahead of the new composers. 
Wouldn;t you agree?
Yet they are not, So how would a unrecorded composer make his music known? 
Its unlikely there will be any new Elliott Carter, Henze, Pettersson, Schnittke cds for a very long time to come,,,if ever.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

BabyGiraffe said:


> It is not hard to find music that sounds identical (or better than) to beloved Mozart, Beethoven or Bach that gets zero recognition,


Such as...?________


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Allerius said:


> Such as...?________


Yes, I too am curious about who sounds identical to Beethoven and Bach.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

EdwardBast said:


> Yes, I too am curious about who sounds identical to Beethoven and Bach.


Well now, It looks like i finally have a friend on TC boards. 
I missed his comment. 
No I too am curious , i have no idea which composer could be as interesting as say,,,Beethoven is popular world wide...


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## BabyGiraffe (Feb 24, 2017)

Allerius said:


> Such as...?________


Use the search function, I remember seeing such threads in the past on this forum.
About Mozart - he becomes somewhat more original later in his life, too bad he died so young... Probably the most formulaic famous composer - if you learn more about the galant style, you will understand why.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

BabyGiraffe said:


> Great is a big word.
> It is not hard to find music that sounds identical (or better than) to beloved Mozart, Beethoven or Bach that gets zero recognition, .


We all throw that adj around all the time. Like, *Mussorgsky's great opera Boris Godunov*,,,a work where the 2nd part is not at all that great,,,Someone the other day was asking if he could get recommends on Bach, works as great/similar to the great VC's...no one could really come up with a ,,,great,,,suggestion..and so on, and so forth,,,,Mahler's *great* 8th sym, a work where many Mahler-ians have shown some dispute over the 8th as really *great*. So that term is both subjective and relative.

But i agree, and have this point you raise,,and have been chastised , warned, and ridiculed,,,that perahps we need to make some reassessment of previous glorifications. 
So tread lightly in how you word things, do not let your fancy run free. 
They, built these concert halls for THEIR composers, 
Not yours, not mine.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

BabyGiraffe said:


> Use the search function, I remember seeing such threads in the past on this forum.
> About Mozart - he becomes somewhat more original later in his life, too bad he died so young... Probably the most formulaic famous composer - if you learn more about the galant style, you will understand why.


Mozart's early works, early PCs, his 5 VC,'s chamber,,,pretty much is for Mozartians fan club,,I love Mozart,,only for his later works. Where his genius blossomed. 
His early works, i find OK, nothing great. 
But remember, Mozart was building on his early achievements , AND MOST importantly, Mozart isa powerful in-spiritation for later composers. Henze, Schnittke, Cater,,,in fact all my 20TH C composers have received inspirations from the great wonderous composer. 
Henze mentions in his auto, that he began his writing with some Bach on the player. Clears his mind. 
Even If I am not so fond of his music, I own a huge debt to Bach for helping bring forth the music of Henze..
See how this works out? 
greatness/genius never dies, it is reborn anew. 
While others jolly in the old, i find the new much more interesting. 
Bach's genius reborn in Henze. 
.


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## BabyGiraffe (Feb 24, 2017)

paulbest said:


> Someone the other day was asking if he could get recommends on Bach, works as great/similar to the great VC's...no one could really come up with a ,,,great,,,suggestion..and so on, and so forth


Ok, there are some problems with this - first, you need an expert on this type of music that knows all well known or forgotten (now) composers from before Bach's time, because big part of his music is "oldschool" compared to the trends of his own time.
Bach, Mozart, Beethoven etc were not living in a vacuum.
Let's take a more recent example - Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue - it is not from a that remote time area, so it is easier to get informed about it, but imagine someone in year 2200 having similar conversation - it may be hard to find much information about the "spirit of time" - jazz, blues, negro folk music etc - I recently found interesting works on youtube while I was searching for Afro-american composers that were from roughly the same time period as Rhapsody in Blue.

Second problem and this is a problem in mathematics: when something is considered exactly the same or in the same class of objects? (Obviously, we are not looking for 1:1 copy, you probably know the story of Borges about the writer that rewrote Don Quixote...)


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

BabyGiraffe said:


> Use the search function, I remember seeing such threads in the past on this forum.


I was expecting that _you_ could provide me with such examples, considering that it's so easy to find them. And also because, you see, other members could think that you're actually fleeing from the discussion by not giving me a direct answer. 



BabyGiraffe said:


> About Mozart - he becomes somewhat more original later in his life, too bad he died so young... Probably the most formulaic famous composer - if you learn more about the galant style, you will understand why.


Yes, very, very original. Mozart may have started his career in the shadows of composers such as J.C. Bach, Sammartini, Stamitz and C.P.E. Bach, but soon he found his own voice and IMO took Classical period music to a whole new level by making use of assimetry of melodic phrases, counterpoint, daring chromaticism and dissonant harmonies, by increasing the lenght and scope of piano concertos, by blurring the edges between opera seria and opera buffa, by brilliantly displaying the possibilities of the clarinet, then a new instrument, by creating the piano quartet, by using tone rows, etc. but, more than anything, by IMO infusing his technically perfect music with great expression.

See, if a supposed artist has the best technique in the world but has nothing important to say with that, all what he produces is dust to me. When you compare negatively Bach, Mozart and Beethoven with composers of nowadays that you don't even dare to name, I'm inclined to believe that you're missing what I believe is the point of their music: the technical advances yes, but first and foremost the profound expression that in my opinion it has, and that IMHO is so difficult to emulate.



Bulldog said:


> It's impossible to find.


Perhaps not impossible, but very unlikely I would say.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Not following you completely, Yes Bach, Mozart, Beethoven were not living inside a plastic bubble, cut off , as though living on a deserted island, writing music. 
Not that way at all. 
Take Bach's greatness. 
We know Vivaldi was exactly contemporary with Bach, 2 dif styles, yet each influenced the other. But who influenced Bach/Vivaldi?\
Perhaps Corelli and others I know not of. 
I wrote many posts several weeks ago dealing with influences and genius. 
No composer stands alone. 
Which is why I seek the new. 
The New was the Classical Renaissance which began with Wagner and Debussy.
Here with this Renaissance is where my main interest begins. 
This Renaissance , I am afraid has , well Ravel has a work for this ending of The New Renaissance 
Pavane pour une Infante Defunte.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Allerius said:


> I was expecting that _you_ could provide me with such examples, considering that it's so easy to find them. And also because, you see, other members could think that you're actually fleeing from the discussion by not giving me a direct answer.
> 
> Yes, very, very original. Mozart may have started his career in the shadows of composers such as J.C. Bach, Sammartini, Stamitz and C.P.E. Bach, but soon he found his own voice and IMO took Classical period music to a whole new level by making use of assimetry of melodic phrases, counterpoint, daring chromaticism and dissonant harmonies, by increasing the lenght and scope of piano concertos, by blurring the edges between opera seria and opera buffa, by brilliantly displaying the possibilities of the clarinet, then a new instrument, by creating the piano quartet, by using tone rows, etc. but, more than anything, by IMO infusing his technically perfect music with great expression.
> 
> See, if a supposed artist has the best technique in the world but has nothing important to say with that, all what he produces is dust to me. When you compare negatively Bach, Mozart and Beethoven with composers of nowadays that you don't even dare to name, I'm inclined to believe that you're missing what I believe is the point of their music: the technical advances yes, but first and foremost the profound expression that in my opinion it has, and that IMHO is so difficult to emulate.


Excellent insights and explanations why these 3 masters remain foremost in the minds of the CM community. In the sense of vital importance on so many levels, No one can critque these 3 masters in their incredible creative output.

Yet with Bach, his B Minor Mass, masterpiece indeed, , along comes Mozart with his many sacred works, leaving the B Minor Mass, not as great as it once was.
Beethoven did not master the operatic form, Mozart did. 
Beethoven and Mozart are about equal in terms of appreciative acclaims by the CM community, 
So it is not a simple task to mention composers in the 20Th C which has attained to the heights and depths as has these 3 composers. 
I see these 3 as important in their own creative output, but more importantly for me as a modernist, is how these 3 are The Three Pillars upon which all my modern composers have received much of their inspirations. 
We do not deny their respective genius, only wish to realign their assessment into modern times.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

BabyGiraffe said:


> Probably the most formulaic famous composer - if you learn more about the galant style, you will understand why.


galant style is only one of the many styles Mozart wrote in.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

BabyGiraffe said:


> Bach, Mozart, Beethoven etc were not living in a vacuum.


Neither were other composers. 90% of the time I search for and listen to music outside of the canon composers, I end up being disappointed, realizing why the non-canon composers' music I search for are not popular. I'm curious "why waste time on exploring non-canon composers when life is so short we can't explore everything the canon composers wrote?" I respect some people's queer preference in music to look for the obscure, but personally see it largely as a waste of time. I believe there are good reasons why Bach, Handel, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven etc were among the most influential in history of music.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

As Millionsrainbows has with concise and eloquent elocution, expressed to us, how CM is never static, it isa evolving, evolutionary, explosive in new developments at certain critical times /epochs in history. 
There are basically 2 camps, those who hold on(more FERVENTLY) to tradition and The Modernists, broadly speaking, 2 sides to this issue of musical developments in history. 
, There is one member here who believes this *camp deal* is all rubbish. 
We;ve been through this discussion before, no sense in haranguing over old territory. 
Bach may have been a greater composer than Henze , but only the music of Henze interests me.


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## BabyGiraffe (Feb 24, 2017)

Well, some of them may have stood as innovative among the sea of mediocrity, but if we popularity metric means anything - Vivaldi is the better composer of all of them (or at least "The four seasons" is a "greater" composition than anything Bach and company managed to come with), but Vivaldi doesn't sound different from the rest of the crowd: there are plenty of composers that sound like him, plus he plagiarized even his own works... (I seriously doubt that most listeners can spot the differences between let's say Vivaldi, Telemann and Corelli - and these are big names, who knows how many composers that sounded roughly like them were active, but now obscure...)

I think some people are spoiled, because of overfamiliarity with the canon material and wrong ideas about what is supposed to be "great" (when it can be just a technical trick), ignoring good music that doesn't rely on gimmicks, mass media promotion and pseudo religious art cults (we can thank romanticism for mystifying the images of some composers).


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

BabyGiraffe said:


> Beethoven's dance music for example is a complete joke)









BabyGiraffe said:


> Well, some of them may have stood as innovative among the sea of mediocrity, but if we popularity metric means anything - Vivaldi is the better composer of all of them (or at least "The four seasons" is a "greater" composition than anything Bach and company managed to come with), but Vivaldi doesn't sound different from the rest of the crowd: there are plenty of composers that sound like him, plus he plagiarized even his own works... (I seriously doubt that most listeners can spot the differences between let's say Vivaldi, Telemann and Corelli - and these are big names, who knows how many composers that sounded roughly like them were active, but now obscure...)
> 
> I think some people are spoiled, because of overfamiliarity with the canon material and wrong ideas about what is supposed to be "great" (when it can be just a technical trick), ignoring good music that doesn't rely on gimmicks, mass media promotion and pseudo religious art cults (we can thank romanticism for mystifying the images of some composers).


Vivaldi is actually one of very mainstream composers, but on what basis are you claiming he's greater than Bach? How much more did he inspire than Bach in history? How many other great composers through history thought Vivaldi was? 
We are well aware of the fact music history is full of "plagiarism", but still, the ones we generally consider "great" generally created greater music than others. And it's why they were praised not only by "ignorant masses", but also by many other geniuses through history. They did the biggest work developing and enriching the art of classical music. There's statistical research that verifies this. _"Topology and evolution of the network of western classical music composers"_ https://epjdatascience.springeropen.com/articles/10.1140/epjds/s13688-015-0039-z. Think of it this way,- they're analogous to Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein in physics. Newton, Einstein didn't create physics, but they contributed massively to the field of study.


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## BabyGiraffe (Feb 24, 2017)

Vivaldi is actually one of very mainstream composers, but on what basis are you claiming he's greater than Bach? How much more did he inspire than Bach in history? How many other great composers through history thought Vivaldi was? 
We are well aware of the fact music history is full of "plagiarism", but still, the ones we generally consider "great" generally created greater music than others. And it's why they were praised not only by "ignorant masses", but also by many other geniuses through history. They did the biggest work developing and enriching the art of classical music. There's statistical research that verifies this. _"Topology and evolution of the network of western classical music composers"_ https://epjdatascience.springeropen.com/articles/10.1140/epjds/s13688-015-0039-z. Think of it this way,- they're analogous to Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein in physics. Newton, Einstein didn't create physics, but they contributed massively to the field of study.[/QUOTE]

On the base of popularity factor (the base most of this forum posters use). If you have read my other posts, I don't believe anyone is "great", so there is some misunderstanding. 
(Vivaldi was popular composer during his own time that quickly got forgotten and was revived by this guy - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Kreisler who basically composed music in Vivaldi's style and revived the interest of musicologists in this composer; it is funny that almost unknown composer like Vivaldi during Classical and Romantic periods is now the most popular or one of the more popular https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Vivaldi#Posthumous_reputation).

Another remark - my personal belief is that it is the critics of 19 and early 20th century who created the modern pantheon and it is known that they filtered what is supposed to be good music through the trends of their own time, ignoring what was actually considered good back in the day, so there are composers that were respected, famous and rich that noone knows today, just because they were not romantic/emotional enough.

Let me also say that some composers did their own original research in expanding their musical language - example: Beethoven and Debussy researching old modal music etc.

Today it is very easy to check different styles and decide for yourself what you like or what should be your influence, but back in the day, you probably had to be lucky to find old/obscure music manuscripts and influences. Such statistical charts are basically useless.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

paulbest said:


> France has which great composer past 75 yrs?


Obviously, and off the top of my head, Messiaen, Dutilleux, Grisey, Boulez and Murail. And I'm sure that with a bit of thought I could add one or two more to this impressive list - which country could come close to equaling it for the same period? In comparison and for the same period, few countries come close - certainly not Germany but perhaps Britain and Hungary.


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## Ras (Oct 6, 2017)

> What countries are the most important for Classical music?


Germany/Austria + Italy + France


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

From my point of view, it would be Austria, but not for the same reason that others here (Mozart, Shubert, Bruckner, Haydn, Mahler), but strictly for the "2nd Viennese School" of Schoneberg, Berg and Webern.

After the mid-20th century, I'd include: US, Italy, Austria, Sweden, France, and UK.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Enthusiast said:


> Obviously, and off the top of my head, Messiaen, Dutilleux, Grisey, Boulez and Murail. And I'm sure that with a bit of thought I could add one or two more to this impressive list - which country could come close to equaling it for the same period? In comparison and for the same period, few countries come close - certainly not Germany but perhaps Britain and Hungary.


oof cousre that is your subjective opinion, My opinion is none of that Big French 5 come anywhere near Henze output/quality.
Not even close,. 1st tier vs 2nd tier. 
Google list of works Henze. 
Goes on forever. Every genre is fully covered with substance, 
No fluff, no fillers , no gimmickery. 
Just the way i love my classical music,. 
Pure as a Rocky Mountain stream, pre industrial era.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

BabyGiraffe said:


> Another remark - my personal belief is that it is the critics of 19 and early 20th century who created the modern pantheon and it is known that they filtered what is supposed to be good music through the trends of their own time, ignoring what was actually considered good back in the day, so there are composers that were respected, famous and rich that noone knows today, just because they were not romantic/emotional enough.
> .


I agree the Music Industry Spokesmen, aka, the Propagandists, are they pushing THEIR agenda, on who's who in CM, or are they truly reflecting what the masses want to hear...are the masses, likea herd of cattle? As Jung points out, thus what level of sensibility are we talking about, mass man is collective man. Slow to change, wanting to fit in with the crowd/acceptance, or maybe many CM fans past 200 yrs went to the concerts for *social events*, meeting new people, nothing to do at home, out of boredom, etc. 
= popularity, that is filling lots of seats, really might not equate into which composers are really great, and which are ONLY JUST POPUALR. 
I've always avoided popular in CM past 35 years, 
Which is why i dumped nearly all my pre 1900 collection except for Mozart's late works, Wagner's operas , only for the great late operas with the UNREAL historical performances 1952-1956/Bayreuth, The Golden Years. 
Oh yes and Vivaldi's minor key concertos, I skip all his major key concertos. 
So yes, there is propaganda. in the Classical Music Industry.

Now as far as *hidden great composers/undiscovered*. 
Not sure if I can buy into that. I mean Bernstein discovered Mahler and everyone is full of joy of this major revelation. *Just think, Mahler may have gone down in history as just a name, had not Bernstein made us all aware of how great Mahler should beccome in todays muisc scene*. 
OK, so thats 1 composer. 
What i do note very well, is how the propagandists have the huge bull horn and thus other great mid.late 20TH C composers, can not get even 1 note of their music heard due to the constant blaring of the romantic (Beethoven includes in this romantic category), composers music. 
and that ain;'t going away anytime soon. 
Its cast in stone. 
I've noted this very well past few months. 
The collective unconscious is just that, unconscious.


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## BabyGiraffe (Feb 24, 2017)

I think that E.T.A. Hoffmann really pushed Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven over the top as a critic. The dude was such a fanatic - he even changed one of his names to Amadeus (original was Wilhelm)... He was also a romantic/gothic fantasy short story writer... (I guess that another one of his favourites - Gluck's fame didn't manage to last).

Here is an excerpt from his wiki article:
"Hoffmann also influenced 19th-century musical opinion directly through his music criticism. His reviews of Beethoven's Symphony No. 5 in C minor, Op. 67 (1808) and other important works set new literary standards for writing about music, and encouraged later writers to consider music as "the most Romantic of all the arts."[15] Hoffmann's reviews were first collected for modern readers by Friedrich Schnapp, ed., in E.T.A. Hoffmann: Schriften zur Musik; Nachlese (1963) and have been made available in an English translation in E.T.A. Hoffmann's Writings on Music, Collected in a Single Volume (2004)"


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Well yes, Hoffmann being a card carrying member of the classicist/romanticist agenda, is going to push his agenda. 
Now sure Bach, Beethoven, Mozart were of high genius. Hoffmann places these on high altars as the 3 gods. 
No problem there. 
But it is common everyday man which flocks to these 3 gods. That isa collective thing and so , will more than likely not change in the distant centuries. 
I get this aspect of the whole deal. 
And as Hoffmann has a voice in the matter, so does The Individual. Which i often, well use to, come out and attempt tom place the 3 masters in perspective, to the angst ofa few TC members here.
My agenda is the 20th C composers. 
Not pre, not post, I am a strict 20th C, as i believe it is this era, which is the flowering (1870-1940)_ and fruiting (1940-2000) of The Tradition. 
Some here think these phantasies are willy-nilly and hold no merit.
The only part of Darwin's theory of evolution, which i believe is true, is right here manifest in the historical transformations within the arts of writing CM. 
I am a evolutionist, whereas Hofmann believes the greatest era, The HighEST arts were in the previous masters. 
He is anti modernist. 
He speaks as a voice for the collective, A POV which has validity, but only as a reflection of common man, not The Individual. 
Jung believed if man has any hope of survival and salvation, it would be The Individual who would bring the light, the new understanding, that is gnosis. 
Oh yes Hoffmann is far superior in intelligence in music, but it is a generalized knowledge, not one of seeing the forest through the trees. 
He was a ideologue for his spirit. As I am a seeker in the highest forms of this transformations within CM.

Hoffmann and i are completely at odds.

These halls were built for their composers. Not mine.

















or lets say, 90% of the music heard in these halls past 200 years, is sounds I am not at all interested in. as it is composers p pre 1900. 
Lets say Beethoven gets premimmence, Brahms/Mozart share a rivaled 2nd spot. 
Hoffmann is part of maintaining this buildings stature and foundational structure, so as to remain for the generations.

But then we have the LA's new avant garde concert hall, yet they too are committed to pre 1900 as well. 
I really hate the LA's 2019/2020 program listings. 
I found 3 works (of the hundreds offered) i am interested in. 
You might think LA would be a environment , bastion, a champion for mid/Late 20th C composers, Its not. 
NYPO is yet sore dour on voicing mid/late 20Th C music. . 
Extremely conservative.


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## asiago12 (May 2, 2019)

BabyGiraffe said:


> It looks like many people in this thread don't know much about evolution and trends in old music, because some of their favourite German, Austrian and French composers were basically recycling... Italian styles.


Nobody can deny the huge Italian influence on "western classical music" from opera to symphony...


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## Subutai (Feb 28, 2021)

My Top 5 looks like this: (based on music I feel an affinity towards for whatever reason).

1. Russia
2. Nordic Countries
3. Eastern Europe
4. Austro Germania
5. ?


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