# Operas you just don't get or just don't like.....



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

What operas don't you "get" or like even though 
you've tried ?


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

_Così fan tutte_ - the music is often brilliant but the plot is really dull and stretches the premise really thinly for a work which lasts for about three hours.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

_The Merry Widow_
Eurotrash


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Strauss' Capriccio. Watched a DVD of it and was pretty bored and then the big let down at the end when you expect who gets the girl, and she never decides so you are left hanging. That DVD was with Te Kanawa. Pugg had highly recommended the Fleming version (there are two in fact) which I avoided because Te Kanawa's was much better price used. But, to give it a second chance I have a Fleming Capriccio in my unwatched pile now. Someday, we'll see. Quite possible that Renee can redeem just about any opera. Still won't know who gets the girl, but will be much nicer watching Renee sing.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Fritz Kobus said:


> Strauss' Capriccio. Watched a DVD of it and was pretty bored and then the big let down at the end when you expect who gets the girl, and she never decides so you are left hanging. That DVD was with Te Kanawa. Pugg had highly recommended the Fleming version (there are two in fact) which I avoided because Te Kanawa's was much better price used. But, to give it a second chance I have a Fleming Capriccio in my unwatched pile now. Someday, we'll see. Quite possible that Renee can redeem just about any opera. Still won't know who gets the girl, but will be much nicer watching Renee sing.


Any updates on Pugg?


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Bonetan said:


> Any updates on Pugg?


Not a thing. Hope all is well, with him.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Can't stand Carmen.
Don't get Pelleas et Milesande
Don't get Les Troyens.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

I have mentioned this before in other threads. With the exception of _Fallstaff_, none of the operas of Verdi.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

Bonetan said:


> Any updates on Pugg?


He's _stupendous_ right now  Don't worry

[HR][/HR]
Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg (it makes me really sad)
Idomeneo (what a wonderful music and a lame libretto)
Les Troyens (endless)
Rigoletto (lack of empathy for the characters)
Mefistofele (Boito) (I would be happy with only the first three acts)
Prince Igor (utterly lacking dramatic structure. Like watching pieces of a puzzle in the MoMA)
Rusalka (Dvorak) (half satisfied for libretto and music)
Hamlet (Nothing outside the Mad scene)
Mireille (the libretists were inventing faux-indie film scriptwriting and Gounod didn't have lots of ideas)
...


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Anything by Birtwistle.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Handel, Mozart, in fact anything before the romantics.

Verdi. Bellini, Donizetti, yes, Puccini, love it, Verdi, no thanks.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I'm oddly unresponsive to two of the most popular operas, Carmen and Aida. I seem to enjoy the former only when sung by Callas, who makes the character utterly fascinating and almost mythical. As for Verdi's Egyptian spectacular, I just can't get into the characters, who seem simple-minded and flat, or the _mise en scene,_ which feels like Hollywood camp. I'll settle for Ponselle doing the arias, or Caruso and Gadski doing the tomb scene.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Come now. Anyone with a smattering of intelligence wouldn't logically "get" virtually every opera ever composed. Most librettos are dramatically preposterous. Add to that a 300 pound diva cast as Aida, Tosca or Mimí and one wonders why opera hasn't become completely obsolete.

My favorite excuse for blowing all opera to smithereens:

Third act of Siegfried, as our hero happens upon the sleeping Brünnhilde sleeping on what seems to be a comfortable custom-fitted rock: "Das ist kein Mann!!!" An intelligent audience should be roaring with laughter at that point. Mercifully, most of them have long ago fallen asleep.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

hpowders said:


> Come now. Anyone with a smattering of intelligence wouldn't logically "get" virtually every opera ever composed. Most librettos are dramatically preposterous. Add to that a 300 pound diva cast as Aida, Tosca or Mimí and one wonders why opera hasn't become completely obsolete.
> 
> My favorite excuse for blowing all opera to smithereens:
> 
> Third act of Siegfried, as our hero happens upon the sleeping Brünnhilde sleeping on what seems to be a comfortable custom-fitted rock: "Das ist kein Mann!!!" An intelligent audience should be roaring with laughter at that point. Mercifully, most of them have long ago fallen asleep.


Well, what would you have said under the circumstances? "Hubba hubba"?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Well, what would you have said under the circumstances? "Hubba hubba"?


How about "WTF!!!"

Believable and street-relevant.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

*Yawns*..........


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I knew there would be a ridiculous answer to the perfect question.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

hpowders said:


> How about "WTF!!!"
> 
> Believable and street-relevant.


There were no streets in Fafner's forest. Of course that was before regietheater.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> There were no streets in Fafner's forest. Of course that was before regietheater.


As they say in Calabria, some people don't _get_ opera, then there are also people who don't _get_ regietheater!

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Although I have warmed to it, Ariadne auf Naxos isn't for me. I really enjoy the prologue in performance, but I still find the 'opera' interminable nonsense. I'm also not keen on Clemenza di Tito, but like it more than I did.

The one opera that really bothers me to the point where I just cannot listen to it or see it is Pelleas. Makes me feel ill!

N.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> There were no streets in Fafner's forest. Of course that was before regietheater.


"WTF" may be approved for regietheater. Watch for it at next year's Salzburg Festival.


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## Polyphemus (Nov 2, 2011)

hpowders said:


> How about "WTF!!!"
> 
> Believable and street-relevant.


Amen and Halleluiah


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

hpowders said:


> Come now. Anyone with a smattering of intelligence wouldn't logically "get" virtually every opera ever composed. Most librettos are dramatically preposterous. Add to that a 300 pound diva cast as Aida, Tosca or Mimí and one wonders why opera hasn't become completely obsolete.
> 
> My favorite excuse for blowing all opera to smithereens:
> 
> Third act of Siegfried, as our hero happens upon the sleeping Brünnhilde sleeping on what seems to be a comfortable custom-fitted rock: "Das ist kein Mann!!!" An intelligent audience should be roaring with laughter at that point. Mercifully, most of them have long ago fallen asleep.


Of course all this is true. But we still watch Shakespeare even though no-one speaks in Elizabethan English. Opera is a ridiculous art form. But it is to be enjoyed. I just happen to like it quite a bit.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Itullian said:


> *Can't stand Carmen.*
> Don't get Pelleas et Milesande
> Don't get Les Troyens.


Too many tunes?


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

DavidA said:


> Opera is a ridiculous art form.


I've said it before, but it's so good it's worth repeating:

As they say in Calabria some people think opera is a ridiculous art form.

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

DavidA said:


> Too many tunes?


I'm not a big fan of Carmen, but don't find it _offensive_. It's not the quantity of the toons, but their quality that is the problem IMO. I find them somewhat banal on repeated listening. I also don't find the characters particularly sympathetic, however a good production with a good cast could make this a theatrical experience worth seeing.

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Of course all this is true. But we still watch Shakespeare even though no-one speaks in Elizabethan English. Opera is a ridiculous art form. But it is to be enjoyed. I just happen to like it quite a bit.


Whenever I see "this is true" preceded by "of course," I know that it probably isn't true.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> As they say in Calabria, some people don't _get_ opera, then there are also people who don't _get_ regietheater!
> 
> N.


Nowadays you're apt to _get_ it whether you want it or not.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> I'm not a big fan of Carmen, but don't find it _offensive_. It's not the quantity of the toons, but their quality that is the problem IMO. I find them somewhat banal on repeated listening. I also don't find the characters particularly sympathetic, however a good production with a good cast could make this a theatrical experience worth seeing.
> 
> N.


I think part of my own problem with _Carmen_ is that it hovers in a somewhat vague space between serious opera and light entertainment. Its lighter aspects don't amuse as, say, _Die Fledermaus_ or G & S do, and yet I can't take its serious aspects seriously and feel anything for that hapless bumpkin Jose. This makes it a sort of campy "gypsy musical" which interests me about as much as other musicals interest me, i.e., hardly at all.

Into this stepped Maria Callas, and suddenly my ear was glued to every note and syllable. But come to think of it, she's about 90% of my reason for listening to a number of operas.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

One of my rare detractors (by innuendo, of course, not directly) mentioned Ariadne. Must have a terrific heldentenor to pull it off....perhaps, a young Gary Lakes....and a resurrected Elizabeth Schwarzkopf wouldn't hurt either. The "plot"? Better ignored.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Plot is a minor concern to me. I mainly listen for the music.
And Carmen sounds just plain corny to me.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Conte said:


> I'm not a big fan of Carmen, but don't find it _offensive_. It's not the quantity of the toons, but their quality that is the problem IMO. I find them *somewhat banal *on repeated listening. I also don't find the characters particularly sympathetic, however a good production with a good cast could make this a theatrical experience worth seeing.
> 
> N.


You sure you're listening to the same Carmen as me?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Itullian said:


> Plot is a minor concern to me. I mainly listen for the music.
> And Carmen sounds just plain corny to me.


Hmmm. One of the greatest of all operas. Hardly say it was corny!


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

GregMitchell said:


> Anything by Birtwistle.


Not even_ Punch and Judy_? I know it was too much for Britten and Pears at the premier but I thought it worked well when accepted as a violent dark comedy.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

elgars ghost said:


> Not even_ Punch and Judy_? I know it was too much for Britten and Pears at the premier but I thought it worked well when accepted as a violent dark comedy.


Nope. Can't stand that either.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

elgars ghost said:


> Not even_ Punch and Judy_? I know it was too much for Britten and Pears at the premier but I thought it worked well when accepted as a violent dark comedy.


The words "violent" and "comedy" don't sit well together for me. As for Birtwistle's score, I imagine they sit together just fine. Maybe I'll find the time for it once I'm sitting on my pink cloud with nothing much to do for all eternity. Will we be allowed CDs, I wonder, or just harps?


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

If violence and comedy are too incongruous then presumably there's not much hope for _Sweeney Todd_ either.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

elgars ghost said:


> If violence and comedy are too incongruous then presumably there's not much hope for _Sweeney Todd_ either.


There's hope for it if it's what you're hoping for.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

*Lully*
Long, static, musically uninteresting operas designed to flatter Louis XIV. If _Atys_ is the king's opera, the Revolution might have been a good thing for French music.

*Handel*
Some brilliant arias, but as operas, are they anything more than showcases for castrati?
Even the most obsessive HIP might find giving the unkindest cut of all tragically un-hip.

*Spontini*
Static, bombastic operas full of military marches, choruses on-stage and off, massed bands, cavalry charges, and exploding ships. Their cardboard characters, lack of heart, and glorification of military conquest make them hard to love. This was what Wagner wanted to outdo when he composed _Rienzi_.

*Bellini: Norma*
Insipid mooning about, like Keats. At 2 ½ hours, does it justify length? A lot of it sounds like generic bel canto, and there's not enough PLOT (Rossini had similar problems: 3 hours of _Bianca e Falliero_!). Very little happens in the first act (apart, obviously, from "Casta diva"). Not until end "Vanne, sì: mi lascia, indegno" does it WAKE UP. Far & away the best (most exciting) bit is the war chorus, from 'Squilla il bronzo del Dio!' to 'GUERRA, GUERRA! SANGUE, SANGUE! (and then goes back to being pretty). And that's about 3 minutes! Takes forever to end.

*Verdi*
_Rigoletto_, _Ballo in maschera_, _Don Carlos_, _Aida_, and _Otello _are all great.

I don't like any of the early ones much (except _I due Foscari_ and _Macbeth_). They're full of sound and fury, thud and blunder, with bipolar heroes who want to hurl themselves off cliffs, kill girlfriend, and set fire to Prague. Many are coarse, and lack the musicianship of Rossini, Donizetti, or Mercadante; scores sound noisy and empty.

*Wagner's Ring and Tristan*
Wagner was an orchestral composer of genius, but not a great stage composer. His imagination is astonishing, his music often sublime. The Rhine prelude, the whole scene with Mime and the Rhinemaidens, the entrance of the gods into Valhalla, the Siegmund/Sieglinde love duet, Wotan's farewell, the magic fire music, Siegfried's forging song, the forest murmurs, Siegfried's Rhine journey, the funeral march; the Tristan prelude, and the Act II love duet are all the work of a great _musician_. But the dramas themselves are turgid, full of arioso, weighed down by Schopenhauer.

*Goetz: Der Widerspänstigen Zähmung*
George Bernard Shaw "place[d] Goetz securely above all other German composers of the last hundred years, save only Mozart and Beethoven, Weber and Wagner." _The Shrew _was "the greatest comic opera of the century, except _Die Meistersinger_." 
There were three guys named Rossini, Offenbach, and Sullivan, for a start. Moniuszko's _Straszny dwór_, Lortzing's _Zar und Zimmermann_, and a dozen each by Donizetti and Auber are funnier, and have better tunes.
it lacks the energy of the Shakespearean original, or the exhilarating mixture of sophisticated wordplay and knockabout farce of Cole Porter's _Kiss Me Kate_.
Knowing Shaw, he was probably being provocative. Hailing an obscure, dead composer as a genius (and dissing the brainless Schubert, the timidly genteel, limited Mendelssohn, the laborious Schumann, and the doltish Brahms into the bargain)?
These days, we'd call it _The Trolling of the Shaw_.

*Most of Saint-Saëns' operas, except Henry VIII and Samson*
Halfway between Gounod and Wagner, but lacking the former's tunes or the latter's orchestral imagination - so his scores are heightened recit over an uninteresting accompaniment. Operas are often undramatic (e.g. _Barbares_) or inane. Saint-Saëns's music doesn't do anything wrong, but it doesn't do anything right either. It's clear, it's correct, but it lacks inspiration and passion.

*Massenet **- Werther*
Why does this get trotted out so often, when there are a dozen better Massenets?

*Tchaikovsky *-
_Eugene Onegin _: infuriatingly stupid adolescent
_Queen of Spades _: over-expansion of a Pushkin short story, with a Mozart pastiche stuck in the middle

*Puccini *- *La Bohème, Madama Butterfly* (boring story and music)
(and verismo pieces like _Pagliacci_, _Andrea Chenier_, _Adriana Lecouvreur_)

*Strauss -*
*Elektra*: Inadvertently hilarious libretto reads like poetry by an angry teenage emo, wangsting about blood and how her parents are _SO_ unfair.
*Capriccio*: boring and self-indulgent

*Britten*
_Peter Grimes_ - dreary
_Billy Budd_ - there is nothing like a dame! (Or is it the monochrome '60s Beeb?)

*Prokofiev: Love for Three Oranges*
I saw a modern concept production apparently designed by a rubber enthusiast. The director might be to blame for that evening of operatic algolagnia.

*Janacek: The Makropulos Case*
I've seen or heard three different productions (CD, DVD, and live), and it leaves me cold. Terrific overture, which sounds like John Barry, though.

*Adams: Nixon in China*
Terrifying!


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

NickFuller said:


> *Lully*
> Long, static, musically uninteresting operas designed to flatter Louis XIV. If _Atys_ is the king's opera, the Revolution might have been a good thing for French music.
> 
> *Handel*
> ...


How some people love to court controversy. I'm staying out of this one.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

GregMitchell said:


> How some people love to court controversy. I'm staying out of this one.


Fools and angels?


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

A lot, honestly, of Gounod. Faust I love, R&J is goodish, Mireille has its moments, but the others are often less than the sum of their parts. Pity when, say, La reine de Saba has such a beautiful overture, what follows is so weak.

Stockhausen's Licht.

And there's a fair amount of obscure stuff that isn't terribly good (Paisiello's Nina, Cagnoni's Re Lear, David's Herculanum...)

But the worst opera I know of is D'Indy's drame anti-Juif "La légende de Saint Christophe". For some strange reason, it's never been performed or recorded.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

NickFuller said:


> Fools and angels?


I'll just say that many of your choices are among my favourite operas (two of them in my top five) - and leave it at that.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

elgars ghost said:


> If violence and comedy are too incongruous then presumably there's not much hope for _Sweeney Todd_ either.


_Sweeney Todd_ is a perfect example.
One could also easily add the "violence/comedy" aspect to _The Consul._ Thank god for the Magician -- otherwise we'd all be needing smelling salts by the end.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

*Mefistofele*. I've tried to like it but can't.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

DavidA said:


> You sure you're listening to the same Carmen as me?


Yes, as Itulian has put it, I find some of the music corny.

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

NickFuller said:


> A lot, honestly, of Gounod. Faust I love, R&J is goodish, Mireille has its moments, but the others are often less than the sum of their parts. Pity when, say, La reine de Saba has such a beautiful overture, what follows is so weak.
> 
> Stockhausen's Licht.
> 
> ...


Perhaps it would have been easier to tell us the few operas you don't have a problem with?

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> Perhaps it would have been easier to tell us the few operas you don't have a problem with?
> 
> N.


Heh heh. Are you ready to hear about dozens of operas you didn't know existed? They're all better than the _Ring_ too.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

The Conte said:


> Perhaps it would have been easier to tell us the few operas you don't have a problem with?
> 
> N.


Well, _La clemenza di Tito_, _Ariadne auf Naxos_, and _Pelléas _are some of them!

I also really like some of the other operas people don't: _Les Troyens_, _Prince Igor_, _Aida_, _Rigoletto_, _Idomeneo_, _Così fan tutte_, and Offenbach.

And _Carmen_ has lots of good tunes. It's not a favourite (I had the music going feverishly round my head when I got violent food poisoning after watching the Domingo film), but its brio is irresistible.

I tried to listen to a Birtwhistle once...


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

NickFuller said:


> Well, _La clemenza di Tito_, _Ariadne auf Naxos_, and _Pelléas _are some of them!
> 
> I also really like some of the other operas people don't: _Les Troyens_, _Prince Igor_, _Aida_, _Rigoletto_, _Idomeneo_, _Così fan tutte_, and Offenbach.
> 
> ...


Then we do agree on some things, it would seem.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

To add to my list:
Don't care for French or Russian opera.
I cant take baroque opera. 
I never liked Puccini, or even Verdi.
I do enjoy Lucia, and I Puritani and Pagliacci


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Itullian said:


> To add to my list:
> Don't care for French or Russian opera.
> I cant take baroque opera.
> I never liked Puccini, or even Verdi.
> I do enjoy Lucia, and I Puritani and Pagliacci


No Puccini? No Verdi, even? What kind of a paesan are you? Vagneriano, I guess.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> No Puccini? No Verdi, even? What kind of a paesan are you? Vagneriano, I guess.


Apparently they're ok if VDLA is singing them. She's his weak spot! :devil:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Apparently they're ok if VDLA is singing them. She's his weak spot! :devil:


He has good taste in sopranos, at any rate.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> No Puccini? No Verdi, even? What kind of a paesan are you? Vagneriano, I guess.


I know Woodduck, I don't get it either. 
I just always noticed that the operas I most liked were German guys.
Even Mozart.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Itullian said:


> I know Woodduck, I don't get it either.
> I just always noticed that the operas I most liked were German guys.
> Even Mozart.


Well, I'm with you, more or less. My favorite operas are German, my favorite Mozart opera by far is _Zauberflote,_ and most Italian opera I listen to only if the singers are extraordinary (which nowadays means dead). I explain it by the fact that I'm only one eighth Italian.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> Well, I'm with you, more or less. My favorite operas are German, my favorite Mozart opera by far is _Zauberflote,_ and most Italian opera I listen to only if the singers are extraordinary (which nowadays means dead). I explain it by the fact that I'm only one eighth Italian.


Zauberflote is my favorite too.
And I am full blooded Italian


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## sharkeysnight (Oct 19, 2017)

I didn't enjoy La traviata.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

sharkeysnight said:


> I didn't enjoy La traviata.


Who doesn't.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Rogerx said:


> Who doesn't.


Sharkeysnight? ...........


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Rogerx said:


> Who doesn't.


Not fond of the storyline, but I got a DVD of it with Renee Fleming so will give it a shot.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

Rogerx said:


> Who doesn't.


Probably one of the Verdis I know least, with Alzira and Aroldo. Haven't seen / heard it for about 12 years, when I started to get into opera seriously. Romtrag isn't really my thing, but it has some very good tunes.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

DavidA said:


> Hmmm. One of the greatest of all operas. Hardly say it was corny!


And there was the somewhat risqué 'firing pin' joke heh heh...


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

Carmen just doesn't work for me, have seen half a dozen productions. AS I've siad before Carmen Jones is huge improvement.

Magic Flute is misnamed. Can't get into it and the two Paps are extreemely annoying.

Macbeth leves me ...uninvolved. Don't know why but only Netrebko interested me at all.

La Fanciulla ...been a long time, will try again.

Il Trovatore. Fine as long as I dont know what they are singing about.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Third act of Siegfried, as our hero happens upon the sleeping Brünnhilde sleeping on what seems to be a comfortable custom-fitted rock: "Das ist kein Mann!!!" An intelligent audience should be roaring with laughter at that point. Mercifully, most of them have long ago fallen asleep.


Siegfried is not only my favorite Ring opera, it is one of my single favorite operas. The audience is intelligent enough to know that Siegfried has never seen a woman. That's why we don't laugh.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Siegfried thinking Brunhild was a man on first appearance? At least he didn't think she was a dwarf.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

elgars ghost said:


> Siegfried thinking Brunhild was a man on first appearance? At least he didn't think she was a dwarf.


"Das ist kein Mann" is translated to English as "This is no man" so Siegfried does not think Brunnhilde is a man at first sight. He is confused. He has never seen a woman before. He's intelligent enough to know she's different than him or any man he's seen. He is confused. We often hear people say Siegfried is a dummy. He's no dummy - rather his world was just so small, and he had no exposure to anything. I've seen countless times people growing and evolving as they are exposed to different facets of life. That's part of the reason Siegfried is one of my most favorite operas - we see a nothing evolve into a hero over the course of the work.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

If I'm being honest here, I'm going to have to say Puccini. Sometimes, if I am in the right mood, I can listen to _Turandot_, but now I find the rest of the lot very boring. He was my second foray into opera. Verdi was my first. Verdi still remains amongst my favorites. Puccini ranks amongst my least favorite opera composers, if not THE least favorite. I do a hard stop at Shostakovich, so anything after that, I'd definitely rate below Puccini.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

gellio said:


> "Das ist kein Mann" is translated to English as "This is no man" so Siegfried does not think Brunnhilde is a man at first sight.


Yes, Siegfried does think the sleeping figure is a man.

"Ha! in Waffen ein *Mann*?
Wie mahnt mich wonnig *sein* Bild!
Das hehre Haupt drückt wohl der Helm?
Leichter würd' *ihm*, löst' ich den Schmuck?"
(*emphasis* added)

He does not realize the person before him is not a man until he cuts off the armor.

And I think Siegfried's reaction here should absolutely be funny. One of his major goals has been to learn fear. He wasn't scared of the bear he brought home (though Mime was), and at first sight of Fafner as a dragon Siegfried hopes the beast will be his friend (his other main goal of the opera). He also wasn't scared of Mime when he realized Mime was trying to kill him. He also wasn't scared of der Wanderer, an actual god.

He was entirely fearless... until he met a woman. It's ridiculous, because he is ridiculous, or at least somewhat. And he may be laughable but he is certainly not pathetic. He quickly overcomes his fear.



gellio said:


> He is confused. He has never seen a woman before. He's intelligent enough to know she's different than him or any man he's seen. He is confused. We often hear people say Siegfried is a dummy. He's no dummy - rather his world was just so small, and he had no exposure to anything. I've seen countless times people growing and evolving as they are exposed to different facets of life.


I agree that his ignorance - due to how Mime raised him - is more important than anything else. His ignorance is even shown to be a positive thing in some situations. Such as in forging Nothung. Mime was well-trained as a smith but having to follow the rules he had learned made him unable to accomplish anything with a sword that powerful.

And I agree he's not unintelligent. But is intelligence is on the intuitive side, rather than the educated side (Wagner was on much the same topic in _Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg_, also done as a comedy).


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

gellio said:


> Siegfried is not only my favorite Ring opera, it is one of my single favorite operas. The audience is intelligent enough to know that Siegfried has never seen a woman. That's why we don't laugh.


Frankly I always laugh as many of the audience do. in fact any intelligent person with a sense of humour would. Opera is a sitting duck for howlers like this and it was one of Wagner's (unintentional) howlers. Singers of Brunnhilde are usually well endowed around the chest area and as the audience knows this they laugh, except for those who take things far too seriously and look on it as some sort of heresy. One of the few moments of light relief in The Ring so make the most of it; it's only an operas for goodness sake. Bring on the Marx Brothers!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

> Siegfried does think the sleeping figure is a man.
> 
> "Ha! in Waffen ein *Mann*?
> Wie mahnt mich wonnig *sein* Bild!
> ...


I agree with all of this, but would observe that in making Siegfried afraid of nothing but a woman Wagner is making quite a perceptive comment (before psychoanalysis!) on masculine psychology, which confronts a boy with the gender-defining tasks of distinguishing himself from woman, learning to relate to her in a form other than mother, and defining his masculinity without suppressing parts of his own nature and condemning himself to permanent fear or hatred for the "feminine." This is a much more daunting challenge than making swords and slaying dragons, and men handle it with varying success. Siegfried, despite his orphaned childhood, still calls on his mother for support in dealing with his overwhelming surge of feelings. Two operas later, Wagner makes this same male crisis the fulcrum on which Parsifal's fate turns.

(And yes, it's perfectly appropriate to chuckle at Siegfried's naivete. Wagner had a sense of humor, and there are other amusing moments in this opera and in _Das Rheingold._ _Siegfried_ has been called "the scherzo of the _Ring,_" and "scherzo" is Italian for "joke.")


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Itullian said:


> What operas don't you "get" or like even though
> you've tried ?


I don't "get" most opera. For one thing, I like music to be recognizably pitched; much of the singing is so mannered, with so much wide vibrato, that most of the time I can't even hear what pitch it is they are trying to sing. I much prefer lieder. One singer I heard, that I liked, was Marni Nixon singing Webern. Here she is on something by Villa-Lobos:






But I've got 'em, and I still try. I have Elektra, and Salome; some Wagner, Wozzeck, Moses und Aaron, Mozart, some arias, some highlights and excepts. I like opera overtures.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Itullian said:


> Can't stand Carmen.
> Don't get Pelleas et Milesande
> Don't get Les Troyens.


I must be your anti-particle, Itullian!


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

mountmccabe said:


> gellio said:
> 
> 
> > "Das ist kein Mann" is translated to English as "This is no man" so Siegfried does not think Brunnhilde is a man at first sight.
> ...


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

millionrainbows said:


> I don't "get" most opera. For one thing, I like music to be recognizably pitched; much of the singing is so mannered, with so much wide vibrato, that most of the time I can't even hear what pitch it is they are trying to sing. I much prefer lieder. One singer I heard, that I liked, was Marni Nixon singing Webern. Here she is on something by Villa-Lobos:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Many people don't 'get' opera. They think it ridiculous that people sing instead of talk.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Many people don't 'get' opera. They think it ridiculous that people sing instead of talk.


Maybe have to work them in with some singspiels first.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

Fritz Kobus said:


> Maybe have to work them in with some singspiels first.


Don't forget about letting them bring popcorn and drinks


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Tristan Und Isolde
Capriccio


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

hpowders said:


> How about "WTF!!!"
> 
> Believable and street-relevant.


ROTFLMAO:lol:
:tiphat:


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