# Do you ever wonder what would’ve happened of composers lived longer then they did?



## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

For example if Mozart lived to 60 would Beethoven’s symphonies be the symphonies as we know them today? I always wonder if you shouldn’t mess with fate and if everything happens for a reason. It’s at least interesting to think about. There’s probably folks on this forum who know a lot more than me about the history of classical music so what do you think would happen if things didn’t go the way they went with music. I know a lot of people hate David Hurwitz on this channel and I can see why but I thought he said something pretty interesting in one of his videos: if Rossini had as much time as Wagner for writing operas Rossini would have done what Wagner did before Wagner did it


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

EvaBaron said:


> For example if Mozart lived to 60 would Beethoven's symphonies be the symphonies as we know them today?


I think Mozart would have matured further in harmonic language and stuff, but wouldn't really have done anything radical (by "radical" I mean "going against the 18th century Classical idea of taste") like late Beethoven, Berlioz, and even Schubert (string quartet D.887). Looking at how each generation, for instance, J.A. Hasse (1699), F.X. Richter (1709), C.P.E. Bach (1714), sounds in their late years, it's not hard to speculate. 
If Mozart lived longer how would he have impacted the romantic era? If Mozart lived longer how would he have impacted the romantic era?


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

EvaBaron said:


> For example if Mozart lived to 60 would Beethoven's symphonies be the symphonies as we know them today? I always wonder if you shouldn't mess with fate and if everything happens for a reason. It's at least interesting to think about. There's probably folks on this forum who know a lot more than me about the history of classical music so what do you think would happen if things didn't go the way they went with music. I know a lot of people hate David Hurwitz on this channel and I can see why but I thought he said something pretty interesting in one of his videos: if Rossini had as much time as Wagner for writing operas Rossini would have done what Wagner did before Wagner did it


Yes, folk on this forum, especially Mozart and Schubert enthusiasts, wonder this all the time. It's the woulda coulda shoulda syndrome.

Rossini had more time than Wagner for writing operas. He lived about six years longer. He just didn't want to.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

If Michael Haydn hadn’t been related to his more famous and talented brother would we even be discussing him today? Asking for a friend.


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## Subutai (Feb 28, 2021)

I think if Mozart had lived he'd have taken some of Beethoven's honours. He was maturing and getting darker methinks. I often wish Tchaikovsky had lived longer, yet if it was suicide because of his suppressed homosexuality, judging by his last work then I think that may have been his 'natural' lifespan.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

No, I don't wonder because they didn't and there's nothing that can be done about it. I have wondered what composers would have made of performances and recordings of their music, though. I would love to know what Mahler thought of Abbado, Solti, Mehta, Haitink, Kubelik, Gielen, Maazel, Barbirolli, Ozawa, Chailly, and most of all, Bernstein.


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## juliante (Jun 7, 2013)

i would have loved it if Mahler had composed more chamber music. Unlikely however long he lived though to be fair.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

I wish Monteverdi had lived longer. Too soon. Too soon...


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

In a parallel universe, Sibelius died of a stroke in 1927 and Talk Classical members there lament all the great music he could have composed had he lived longer.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Art Rock said:


> In a parallel universe, Sibelius died of a stroke in 1927 and Talk Classical members there lament all the great music he could have composed had he lived longer.


That's funny... they're also lamenting the early death of Rossini shortly after composing _William Tell_. Think of all the operas he could have composed...


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

vtpoet said:


> I wish Monteverdi had lived longer. Too soon. Too soon...


I wish L'Arianna survived.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Too depressing to think what if Bruckner and Mahler had lived into their ..................?


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Norbert Burgmuller (1810 - 1836) had potential. Robert Schumann certainly thought so. If Burgmuller had lived longer, you would have heard of him!


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

I wish Beethoven lived to compose the string quintet he was planning.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

We all die at the appointed time; it's useless to ask "what if?".


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

HenryPenfold said:


> Too depressing to think what if Bruckner and Mahler had lived into their ..................?


I think Bruckner would have wasted much of his extra life revising his completed Ninth symphony.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

ORigel said:


> I wish Beethoven lived to compose the string quintet he was planning.


A tenth symphony and a late oratorio would be awesome as well in my opinion.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

10 composers who died before reaching 60 years of age & whom I'd like to give 15-20 more, active years:

- Mozart
- Beethoven
- Schubert
- Chopin
- Mahler
- Guillaume Lekeu
- Debussy
- Scriabin
- Alban Berg
- Schulhoff

Some others: Reger, K.A.Hartmann, Szymanowski, Crawford-Seeger, Kallinnikov, William Baines, Karlowicz, Jezek, Weber, Hummel, Kapralova, Ciurlionis, R.Schumann, John Field, Arriaga, J.M.Kraus, Donizetti, Bellini, Bizet, Paganini, Gershwin, Ullmann, P.Haas, Pijper, Reubke, Rott, Rathaus, Pergolesi.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

It would have been nice if Bartok lived ten more years. He left works unfinished on his death.


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## Josquin13 (Nov 7, 2017)

Beethoven was meant to finish what Mozart started. It couldn't have been the other way around. Mozart (& Van Swieten) even got him into Handel, early on, which was meant to be, & couldn't have been otherwise. But yes, I would have liked to see Mozart finish his Requiem. He desperately wanted to complete it on his death bed.

I would have also liked to see Bruckner finish (& revise) the 4th movement of his 9th Symphony, Mahler his 10th Symphony, & Puccini the end of his final opera, Turandot. 

I'd also be keenly interested to hear what kind of music Claude Debussy might have composed if his life hadn't been cut short by colorectal cancer at aged 55. But then Debussy wrote enough music to strongly influence the rest of the 20th century. So, again, it wasn't meant to be, he wasn't meant to take the progression of music any further than he did.


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## Tarneem (Jan 3, 2022)

Poor Schubert. 

listening to the last movement of his last symphony and the last movement of his last piano sonata give me the impression that he never considered himself as a revolutionary figure. But those two movement shows that he attempted to get out of Beethoven's shadow. 

Yeah... I always wonder what would happen if he lived longer


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

vtpoet said:


> That's funny... they're also lamenting the early death of Rossini shortly after composing _William Tell_. Think of all the operas he could have composed...


Not what I meant, I know very well that in the last half of Rossini's life he didn't compose music but what I think Hurwitz meant is that Wagner took a long time to compose an opera because he had a stable income (at least enough to be able to spend so much time on an opera). Rossini didn't have a stable income like Mozart and so he was a prolific composer, like Mozart. But if he the luxury that Wagner had he would have anticipated what Wagner did


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## FrankinUsa (Aug 3, 2021)

No. I have not.


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

Well take the time and think about it and I would be happy to hear what you think


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Max Reger is one example which interests me. He was a disciple of the Bach/Beethoven/Brahms train of thought and he devoted much of his short-ish life to writing a massive amount of music in which he sought to push certain elements of his work (i.e chromaticism) to their absolute limits. He died in 1916 while still preoccupied with his personal musical crusade, but I do wonder if the changes which came about in the post-WWI musical world would have had any eventual impact on his own work.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

EvaBaron said:


> Not what I meant, I know very well that in the last half of Rossini's life he didn't compose music but what I think Hurwitz meant is that Wagner took a long time to compose an opera because he had a stable income (at least enough to be able to spend so much time on an opera). Rossini didn't have a stable income like Mozart and so he was a prolific composer, like Mozart. But if he the luxury that Wagner had he would have anticipated what Wagner did


It's the other way around: Rossini had fame and riches early in his life due to the amazing success of his operas, and by the 1810s his popularity was such that, for example, in Vienna eclipsed even that of Beethoven. So, if he decided to retire after _Guillaume Tell_, I don't think that it's due to financial problems. Wagner, on the other hand, constantly needed to borrow large sums of money and faced financial difficulties almost all of his life, and his situation by the 1860s was so critical that he was considering suicide. Luckily for all of us, Ludwig II of Baviera came to his aid and this helped Wagner to enjoy some stability in his last years, what in turn allowed him to complete most of his late, most daring and now critically acclaimed, music.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Barbebleu said:


> If Michael Haydn hadn't been related to his more famous and talented brother would we even be discussing him today?


Right.. How can we not always bow down before the Almighty Father, whose operatic ensembles make his contemporaries' look like jokes.. **bassoon farts**


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

Xisten267 said:


> It's the other way around: Rossini had fame and riches early in his life due to the amazing success of his operas, and by the 1810s his popularity was such that, for example, in Vienna eclipsed even that of Beethoven. So, if he decided to retire after _Guillaume Tell_, I don't think that it's due to financial problems. Wagner, on the other hand, constantly needed to borrow large sums of money and faced financial difficulties almost all of his life, and his situation by the 1860s was so critical that he was considering suicide. Luckily for all of us, Ludwig II of Baviera came to his aid and this helped Wagner to enjoy some stability in his last years, what in turn allowed him to complete most of his late, most daring and now critically acclaimed, music.


Oh, thanks a lot for the interesting information and for correcting me, apparently David Hurwitz is not a great source. I did hear that Wagner didn't have friends and was only nice to people when he needed them, was that also the case with his behaviour towards Ludwig 2 of bavaria


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

EvaBaron said:


> Oh, thanks a lot for the interesting information and for correcting me, apparently David Hurwitz is not a great source. I did hear that Wagner didn't have friends and was only nice to people when he needed them, was that also the case with his behaviour towards Ludwig 2 of bavaria


Wagner had a complex personality, and was no saint: he wrote anti-semitic panflets that, it seems, will forever make many people hostile to him. Nonetheless, he was capable of noble acts. For example, late in his life when he met the son of Beethoven's nephew and discovered that he had financial problems, Wagner immediately presented him to Ludwig II and requested his services to the king in order to help him. When, in 1849, the May Uprising in Dresden, a reflex of the Springtime of the Peoples, broke out, Wagner left his comfort and secure life as a Royal Saxon Court Conductor to join the people in the streets claiming for social justice, literally giving everything he had to do what he believed (he could have been sentenced to death due to this). Isn't this memorable?


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

*Thread: Do you ever wonder what would've happened f composers lived longer th[a]n they did?*_

Sure. If J.S. Bach had lived longer, and were, in fact, still alive today (He'd be how old? 336?) the entire world should surely appreciate his accomplishment, and not just us few oddballs who hang around these Classical Music Forums.

Alas!_


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## Aurelian (Sep 9, 2011)

Mozart as a living in-person influence on Beethoven in the 1790s, and how they would have got along, is my favorite hypothetical music history question.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

hammeredklavier said:


> Right.. How can we not always bow down before the Almighty Father, whose operatic ensembles make his contemporaries' look like jokes.. **bassoon farts**


^ Totally triggered.


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## ansfelden (Jan 11, 2022)

i wonder what if as Schubert gets really old and meets Bruckner...


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Aurelian said:


> Mozart as a living in-person influence on Beethoven in the 1790s, and how they would have got along, is my favorite hypothetical music history question.


One of mine too. I wonder whether Mozart's reaction wouldn't have been a little like Haydn's? And based on Mozart's reaction to Clementi, I suspect some professional jealousy would have been in order. Mozart thought highly of composers like Franz Danzi and Pleyel especially. I can't stand either composer and, Christ, especially Danzi. So what would Mozart have made of Beethoven given his reputed admiration for _these_ two and Beethoven's utter dismissal of them? Beethoven once stated that he refused to attend a performance of Mozart's symphonies (later in life) for fear of being too influenced by them. I thought that was fascinating. I suspect that had Mozart lived, Beethoven would have had to make much more of an effort to separate himself from Mozart (whose fame and reputation, surely, would have only increased as musical tastes caught up with him) and possibly not without some real antagonism. Having read a couple biographies on Mozart, my guess is that he would have been influenced by Beethoven, but mainly in his solo keyboard works. Mozart's artistry would have been fully formed and beyond obvious influence by the 1800s, I'm guessing. They would have represented two very different and potentially rival directions for the future of music and Mozart's influence surely would have been far, far greater than it already was. I suspect that music after these two would have been very different and Beethoven's influence on later composers somewhat if not considerably blunted.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

hammeredklavier said:


> Right.. How can we not always bow down before the Almighty Father, whose operatic ensembles make his contemporaries' look like jokes.. **bassoon farts**


I only posted that to wind you up Hammered. I know how much you prefer Mickey to Papa Joe!


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Strange, I never think about it , like mbhaub saying ,


> because they didn't and there's nothing that can be done about it.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

vtpoet said:


> I suspect that had Mozart lived, Beethoven would have had to make much more of an effort to separate himself from Mozart (whose fame and reputation, surely, would have only increased as musical tastes caught up with him) and possibly not without some real antagonism.


I am not sure if musical tastes would have caught up with Mozart or if Mozart would have to be the one "catching up" in the early 1800s. Especially if one assumes Beethoven striving for more difference than for the actual mix of both being Mozart's "heir" and a youthful barnstormer. This in addition to the virtuosi like Clementi that were more modern and very successful and eventually Rossini's opera. As I wrote somewhere earlier, I could well imagine Mozart mostly retiring from piano concertizing because he could not keep up with the younger virtuosi and focussing on composition, maybe especially opera (although this might have led to another querelle des bouffons with Rossini or Cherubini).



> Mozart's artistry would have been fully formed and beyond obvious influence by the 1800s, I'm guessing. They would have represented two very different and potentially rival directions for the future of music and Mozart's influence surely would have been far, far greater than it already was. I suspect that music after these two would have been very different and Beethoven's influence on later composers somewhat if not considerably blunted.


One could of course argue the opposite case that both Mozart and Beethoven at full throttle in the early 1800s would have led to far less classicist composing from composers of the following generation like Mendelssohn (because all this music would basically already have been written by Mozart in the early 1800s) and far more "revolutionary" romanticism in strong distinction to Mozart (and Beethoven).


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Barbebleu said:


> you prefer Mickey


Do I? Anyway, again, when discussing historical facts, our "subjective preferences" shouldn't really come into play. I won't talk too much on this; Prof. David Wyn Jones pretty much sums it up in his article with objective facts (https://theresia.blog/2019/03/rediscovering-michael-haydn-an-interview-with-david-wyn-jones/ "In Salzburg, if not throughout his life, Mozart was writing in a lingua franca and many of the features of that language are to be found in..."). Listen to the music I posted in #2 (pretty much an "operatic ensemble") and think about; who else (what other composer) has the particular expressions of harmony, vocal writing and lived past 1791. It makes for an interesting "case study" on "how would a composer having linguistic features close to Mozart's would have 'sounded' if he lived past 1791".


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Kreisler jr said:


> One could of course argue the opposite case that both Mozart and Beethoven at full throttle in the early 1800s would have led to far less classicist composing from composers of the following generation like Mendelssohn (because all this music would basically already have been written by Mozart in the early 1800s) and far more "revolutionary" romanticism in strong distinction to Mozart (and Beethoven).


I'm pretty sure that there would have been more instances of chromatic third relations to "meet up with the general trends", and "greater maturity of harmony in terms of his own language", but the basic 18th century Classical framework, which he grew up with, would have been retained in his language. I'm sure that Mozart would not have done, for instance, "...the second phrase of the main theme - the idée fixe - of the Symphonie fantastique, "famous for its shock to classical sensibilities", in which the melody implies a dominant at its climax resolved by a tonic, but in which Berlioz anticipates the resolution by putting a tonic under the climactic note. ..." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hector_Berlioz
Mendelssohn was also a different composer, of a different origin and way of thinking. I'm not sure what is exactly meant by "Mozart could have sounded like Mendelssohn"; I don't think it's insightful to think Mendelssohn's "way of sound" would have been the inevitable way music "developed" towards, in 1791~ the early 1800s, and Mozart inevitably would have followed if he lived past 1791.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I mean that Mendelssohn and other composers of his generation would *not* have sounded as close to Mozart because fewer people would have composed in a late 18th century classical idiom if we had another 20 years worth of Mozart (if you for once read what I wrote, you'd see that it was not at all specific about Mendelsohn, neither a claim that Mozart would have exactly written like Mendelssohn).
It's just the common idea that a style can be exhausted and therefore become uninteresting for a younger generation. As it actually was, this was the case anyway to some extent (even with Beethoven making more radical changes within the classical style than a 50 year old (maybe pudgy and lazy) Mozart would have) but it seems likely that it would have been much more so with another 20 years of Mozart symphonies and quintets.
Because Mozart would have kept composing classical symphonies, quartets etc. in a comparably conservative fashion (compared with Beethoven 1803 and later).

Again, I think the main/only interesting change in later musical history of a longer lived Mozart could have been in the field of opera, especially German opera (because this was far from exhausted). But as most people underappreciate already the Magic Flute, I am apparently the only person interested in this


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Kreisler jr said:


> Again, I think the main/only interesting change in later musical history of a longer lived Mozart could have been in the field of opera, especially German opera (because this was far from exhausted). But as most people underappreciate already the Magic Flute, I am apparently the only person interested in this


I also care for that stuff (I really do), but I just put greater emphasis on intrinsic/fundamental qualities such as styles of vocal writing, harmony, etc , in my reasonable expectations on what could have been done or not done. People who don't, only fuss over surface elements like titles of works, libretti . 
https://www.talkclassical.com/72560-essential-useful-music-theory-2.html#post2174739


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

hammeredklavier said:


> Right.. How can we not always bow down before the Almighty Father, whose operatic ensembles make his contemporaries' look like jokes.. **bassoon farts**


Why do you constantly bring that up as if it's the only example of humor in Haydn's work? It's like condensing Mozart's "sunny and funny" stuff down to "Leck mich im Arsch". Hardee har har.


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