# Expanding beyond Bach



## lucky (9 mo ago)

Hey everyone,

After reading many posts here, I finally decided to create an account and join the conversation.

I’m mostly listening to Bach and looking into expanding beyond this.

These are some of my favorite recordings so you have an idea what I like:

Brandenburg – Pinnock
Cello Suites – Yo Yo ma
Violin Concertos – Freiburger
Mass in B Minor – Gardiner
Art of Future – Emerson
Goldberg Variations – Gould
I’m thinking Beethoven as a next composer. Any suggestions what would be some good recordings to explore?

Have a great day,
Lucky


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

lucky said:


> I’m mostly listening to Bach and looking into expanding beyond this.


I will be recommending a few works as "follow-ups" to the list items with Beethoven as a priority.


> Brandenburg – Pinnock
> Violin Concertos – Freiburger


Vivaldi: 4 Seasons, Handel: Concerti grossi op.6, 
Mozart: Violin concerti 3,4,5, Beethoven: Violin concerto, Triple concerto, 
Mendelssohn: Violin concerto op.64, Brahms: Violin concerto



> Cello Suites – Yo Yo ma


Beethoven: Cello sonatas, especially op.69 and 102, Reger: 3 suites for Cello solo, Kodaly: sonata for cello solo 



> Mass in B Minor – Gardiner


Mozart: Mass in c minor, Haydn: "Nelson mass", Beethoven: Missa solemnis op.123, Brahms: Ein deutsches Requiem



> Art of Future – Emerson


Mozart: string quartets K 387 and 421, Adagio and Fugue c minor
Beethoven: string quartets op. 130/133, 131, 132 (music of the future)
Brahms: Cello sonata e minor



> Goldberg Variations – Gould


Beethoven: Variations op.35 (Gould is very good here) and 120 "Diabelli", piano sonatas op. 26, op.57, op. 109, op. 111 (I would not recommend Gould for these sonatas, Gulda, Arrau, Serkin and many others will do), 
Brahms: Variations on a theme of Handel (piano), Variations on a theme of Haydn (orchestra or two pianos)


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

lucky said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> After reading many posts here, I finally decided to create an account and join the conversation.
> 
> ...


This may be a good one for you, you can find it streaming. It has some music that Mozart wrote based on stuff by Bach, and it has a Beethoven quartet with a nice fugue at the end. 









Beethoven: String Quartet Op. 130 & Grosse Fuge, Op. 133


Beethoven: String Quartet Op. 130 & Grosse Fuge, Op. 133. DG: E4715802. Buy download online. Hagen Quartet



www.prestomusic.com


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Continue with Mozart. The piano concertos, such as no. 20, are a good place to start.


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## 4chamberedklavier (12 mo ago)

If you want more baroque counterpoint, some people suggest that J.D. Zelenka was just as talented as Bach, so you might want to check Zelenka out. He's more of a vocal composer though.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

While Beethoven is a great composer in his own right if you go directly from Bach to Beethoven you're skipping over a large period of development for classical music, especially those of the classical era. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it may be more difficult to appreciate Beethoven's genius as someone who developed music from the ideals of the classical era towards those of the romantic era. If you're interested in that, I would at least recommend checking out Mozart and Haydn (and perhaps Handel and Vivaldi, who, despite being contemporaries with Bach, were more representative in many respects of the baroque era) before Beethoven. Of course it's ultimately your choice, and I doubt your enjoyment of Beethoven will be greatly affected by this. 

Also, I would recommend not focusing too much on specific recordings at first. When you're unfamiliar with a piece it's difficult to judge the differences between recordings and you don't yet have the experience to determine what kind of recordings you prefer anyway.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

My dear, there is no expanding "beyond" Bach. That's like asking what lies beyond the Universe.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

As Eva Yojimbo points out, the leap from Bach to Beethoven is passing over almost a hundred years of musical development. It might be easier to take smaller bites.

Try the wind quintets of Antonin Reicha, who though contemporary with Beethoven, wrote in a more 'classical' style.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Couchie said:


> My dear, there is no expanding "beyond" Bach. That's like asking what lies beyond the Universe.


On a positive note: should one_ fail_ at "expanding beyond Bach", no harm done!


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

NoCoPilot said:


> As Eva Yojimbo points out, the leap from Bach to Beethoven is passing over almost a hundred years of musical development. It might be easier to take smaller bites.
> 
> Try the wind quintets of Antonin Reicha, who though contemporary with Beethoven, wrote in a more 'classical' style.


To be honest this is a bit silly. It's like suggesting that instead of going from Chaucer to Shakespeare one should read Thomas Wyatt first. Beethoven is one of the most popular and beloved musicians who ever lived, very few people need to listen to Antonin Reicha in order to properly appreciate him!

To OP: Carlos Kleiber's Symphony 5 and 7 is _the _canonical Beethoven recording. Takacs for the late quartets, and Gilels in the piano sonatas are my go-tos.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Yes going for Beethoven is fine. I've especially enjoyed Symphonies No. 2 and No. 3 (Berlin Philharmonic/Karajan) and Piano Concertos nos. 4 and 5 (Arrau). Some of my favorite piano sonatas are op. 13, op. 31 no. 2, op.53 especially (Waldstein), op. 79, op. 81a -- choices included a number of pianists.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

I never heard the "art of future"...If you're just starting out, you've got a lot of great composers to discover! Maybe if you have a chance to see a live performance, you could check out the concert calendar of a nearby orchestra or festival.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

Gallus said:


> To be honest this is a bit silly. It's like suggesting that instead of going from Chaucer to Shakespeare one should read Thomas Wyatt first. Beethoven is one of the most popular and beloved musicians who ever lived, very few people need to listen to Antonin Reicha in order to properly appreciate him!


Thomas Wyatt has nowhere near the standing in English literature as Haydn, Mozart, and Handel do in classical music, so that's a pretty bad analogy.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Botschaft said:


> Continue with Mozart. The piano concertos, such as no. 20, are a good place to start.


Finally Botschaft recommends someone other than BRAHMS.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I love this topic. I can imagine three ways it could go: the Baroque beyond Bach, back to before the Baroque, and forward from the Baroque. 

*Baroque beyond Bach*
Zelenka was a great suggestion by 4chamberedklavier. Given the OP's predilection for famous recordings (with which I sympathize), I would especially recommend the Holliger recording of the trio sonatas. 

I also agree with Kreisler jr recommendation of Vivaldi's Four Seasons and Handel's Concerti grossi. Since the OP likes Pinnock's Brandenburgs, Pinnock would be safe for these works too. 

Those were surely among the best possible recommendations for more Baroque. Perhaps the most obvious addition would be Handel's Messiah, and since the OP like's Gardiner's Mass in B minor, Gardiner would be a safe choice here, but there are a lot of great options in this case. 

However, the Baroque era really is so rich and so many people get stuck on Bach with a touch of Handel and make it a point of pride to denigrate everything else in the era. I think that is a mistake. I'd like to suggest... 

-- Rameau's Pièces de Clavecin. Mahan Esfahani made a delightful recording of this music. (I would also very politely recommend listening to Bach on harpsichord!) 

-- Purcell's Dido and Aeneas. Baroque opera is really a lot of fun when you get into it. Probably Rameau or Handel would be the more official place to start, but I have a soft spot for Purcell. The Pinnock CD is a classic, IMO. 

-- Monteverdi's Madrigals, Book 8. Really, all of the books -- I recommend La Venexiana's complete set, just to save money in the long run, but again there are so many good options. This is still technically Baroque, but it's a rather different Baroque than Bach's. 

-- Dowland's Lachrimae. More lovely stuff, and again I'm pushing the early boundary of the Baroque period. The classic recording has become the one led by Peter Holman on Hyperion/Helios. 

There is so much more great Baroque music; this really is just an introduction. But this takes us to: 

*Before the Baroque* 
I step onto the soapbox to lament loudly that we do not listen to enough music before Bach, especially before the Baroque era. I won't push too hard, though. It's like standing in the way of a train. But for the daring and the reckless: 

-- Allegri's _Miserere_ and Palestrina's _Missa Papae Marcelli_. These seem to be something like "everyone's first Renaissance works" and why not? The Miserere in particular is memorable. You'll have to hear the Tallis Scholars' recording eventually anyway, so you might as well start there. 

-- Tallis's _Spem in Alium _and whatever else comes on the recording that you buy of this. Again the Tallis Scholars are surely the most popular choice. If you don't like this music I'm taking my wine and going home. 

I have to stop here because life has other things in store for me, but there is much more. I'll just very quickly mention Byrd, Ockeghem, and Dufay. 

*Forward from the Baroque*
As you've surely noticed, everyone is recommending stuff in this direction, but they're rarely pushing beyond 1900, so I'll try to add my own touch. 

-- Pärt: Fratres, etc. -- This has been recorded a few times but the ECM recording with Gidon Kremer is probably still the most popular. I think this will be pretty friendly territory for someone who enjoys Bach but is otherwise new to classical music. 

That's all I have time for right now. Good luck and have fun!


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Yeah, the leap from Bach to Beethoven is pretty large.

If you love Bach, find more Bach.

You might really also like Vivaldi, Haydn, JC Bach, CPE Bach, Handel, and Mozart.

I think "*science*" has the best "comment", listing some real great composers you'd likely love.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Try to decide why you like some Bach stuff in simple terms and then dive into late Mozart to experience the constrasts.

Then dive into late Beethoven to compare it all with the late Mozart. I don't how this will work out for you, but as a new listener you have catbird seat, as they say..


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> Thomas Wyatt has nowhere near the standing in English literature as Haydn, Mozart, and Handel do in classical music, so that's a pretty bad analogy.


I think it's a fine enough analogy to Reicha, which is the suggestion I was responding to.


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