# Radically obtuse classical music?



## jawnn (Jul 17, 2009)

Can anyone give me a list of radically obtuse classical music? Composers?
And where can I get these on mp3? Any free??

I have been enjoying the radical electronic music at ektoplazm.com but it is starting to sound all the same. Then I heard something by Maceio? or Messiou? Or was it Messien?....it sounded like “mesio”.

I liked Frank Zappa’s classical compositions.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Messiaen is probably who you're thinking of. He's not really what comes to mind when I see the words "radically obtuse," neither is Zappa. When I think obtuse, the first thing that comes to mind is Stockhausen, then Ferneyhough and then Birtwistle.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

"Radically obtuse classical music". Can you "explain" a little further, please.


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

For all your radical obtusitude needs (or at least some of them) and more importantly freeness try:

The Avant Garde Project - http://avantgardeproject.conus.info/mirror/archive.htm
And The Ubu Web - http://www.ubu.com/sound/


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2013)

I thought of Sorabji when I first saw the thread title.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

When I saw the thread title, I could think of nothing but the following.






No composer was more radically obtuse, and no piece of his more so than this one.


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## Bix (Aug 12, 2010)

Is the OP really asking for dull/dense/blunt music that is fundamentally affected in nature?

Can I have some chiarimento before I suggest anything?


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

jawnn said:


> Can anyone give me a list of radically obtuse classical music?


that is impossible because an obtuse music would never get classical.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

sharik said:


> that is impossible because an obtuse music would never get classical.


What does that even mean?


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

Crudblud said:


> What does that even mean?


'classical music' means 'outstanding' that is 'above the ordinary' and 'superior' etc.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Obtuse.............Bach. Understand his counterpoint and you can do _anything._


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

sharik said:


> 'classical music' means 'outstanding' that is 'above the ordinary' and 'superior' etc.


The qualities you ascribe to classical music and the actual definition of classical music are not the same thing, and neither one precludes the possibility of obtuseness.


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## oogabooha (Nov 22, 2011)

sharik said:


> 'classical music' means 'outstanding' that is 'above the ordinary' and 'superior' etc.


...................


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## oogabooha (Nov 22, 2011)

Mahlerian said:


> When I saw the thread title, I could think of nothing but the following.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I honestly thought the same thing when I read the title. What a bold piece, a must-have in my opinion


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

Crudblud said:


> The qualities you ascribe to classical music and the actual definition of classical music are not the same thing, and neither one precludes the possibility of obtuseness.


the very term 'classical' means 'proven by time' whereas you judge from hindsight forgetting that in 18/19th centuries for example there was no such term as 'classical music' at all. Mozart and Saglieri both wrote a 'decent' music at the moment, and only time has shown Mozart was a God chosen genius while Saglieri was just a decent composer who wrote - yes an 'obtuse' music.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

sharik said:


> the very term 'classical' means 'proven by time' whereas you judge from hindsight forgetting that in 18/19th centuries for example there was no such term as 'classical music' at all. Mozart and Saglieri both wrote a 'decent' music at the moment, and only time has shown Mozart was a God chosen genius while Saglieri was just a decent composer who wrote - yes an 'obtuse' music.


Ignoring all the irrelevant padding you shoved in there, your premise is that classical music and obtuseness are mutually exclusive, you then say that Salieri, a composer of classical music, wrote obtuse music. If you're going to point out that your own argument makes no sense why bother posting it in the first place?


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

Crudblud said:


> your premise is that classical music and obtuseness are mutually exclusive


yes exactly.



Crudblud said:


> Salieri, a composer of classical music, wrote obtuse music


where did i say he wrote a classical music?


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

What the heck is "obtuse music"?!.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obtuse_angle#Types_of_angles, .


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

I can't say I have any recommendations for the OP, but I do have some radically acute classical music if he's at all interested


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Geometry aside, the dictionary defines obtuse as dull, blunt, not sharp or smart. Surely that's not what is being requested.

I've found some fairly wild "new music" listening to this podcast:
http://composerconversations.com/

I was especially drawn to this composition, though I can't imagine it would bear too many repeated listens.






[Edit: I checked out ektoplazm.com and haven't found anything remotely radical there. It's all the same tired old thump thump thump thump EDM to me. Sorry.]


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Weston said:


> Geometry aside, the dictionary defines obtuse as dull, blunt, not sharp or smart. Surely that's not what is being requested.


Per Merriam-Webster, it also means "difficult to comprehend: not clear or precise in thought or expression."

So I'm guessing that's it (although it's not common usage).


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

sharik said:


> yes exactly.
> 
> where did i say he wrote a classical music?


Is it important what you say in your posts when everybody else in the world considers Salieri a classical composer? "Classical music" is just a western tradition with good and bad music, not an indicator of quality.


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## Kleinzeit (May 15, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> When I saw the thread title, I could think of nothing but the following.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey! Hey! HEY! Slow down, Nick! This is Vexations, not Vivaldi!

Nine & three-quarter hours.... what is this, bluegrass?


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Kleinzeit said:


> Hey! Hey! HEY! Slow down, Nick! This is Vexations, not Vivaldi!
> 
> Nine & three-quarter hours.... what is this, bluegrass?


Clearly, he didn't prepare himself for an even greater silence with serious immobilities...


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## Rapide (Oct 11, 2011)

Any of the sort that's avant-garde extreme.


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## Kleinzeit (May 15, 2013)

'The music first becomes so familiar that it seems extremely offensive and objectionable. But after a while the mind slowly becomes incapable of taking further offence, and a very strange euphoric acceptance and enjoyment begins to set in ... It is only boring at first. After a while the euphoria begins to intensify.'









--Duke of Prunes


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Obtuse.............Bach. Understand his counterpoint and you can do _anything._


Glad to see you've now got to the best Doctor !


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

sharik said:


> 'classical music' means 'outstanding' that is 'above the ordinary' and 'superior' etc.


Not necessarily. Check out some of the recent so-called Classical Music.  Though the Classics are a different story. Every genre has weaknesses.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

And I would say Xenakis is radically obtuse. Makes my ears hurt.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

norman bates said:


> everybody else in the world considers Salieri a classical composer?


their terribly wrong because no such term as 'classical' existed at the moment.


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## gpaulot (Aug 14, 2013)

My question may look very naïve.
What do you call 'obtuse music'?


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Another question would be which composer causes the most ear pain?


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

neoshredder said:


> Not necessarily. Check out some of the recent so-called Classical Music


a composer, who from the start decided to write a "classical music" piece, would most likely have written a piece of crap, because true art has nothing to do with such things as "target audience" etc.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

Perhaps the OP meant something along these lines(?):


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## jawnn (Jul 17, 2009)

WOW I never expected so much positive feed back here. Thanks, I will search through some of this.

By "obtuse" I ment wildy complex and newish, even hard to understand. Like the music on ektoplazm.com, most of which is too intense, but there is some I realy like.


This is the kind of thing that I like at ektoplazm: tiefenrausch. Not exactly the same old thump thump thump.

I think this machine is not saving every thing....


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

jawnn said:


> complex and newish


you might want to check out a style called NEW COMPLEXITY!


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## jawnn (Jul 17, 2009)

where would I find such??


ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> you might want to check out a style called NEW COMPLEXITY!


I heard this on the radio the other day, nice but not electronic.

Xenakis, IannisTetras

by Arditti String Quartet


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## jawnn (Jul 17, 2009)

Is all this classical? http://www.ubu.com/sound/electronic.html


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