# Similarity: Dvořák 9th & Schubert 9th - 3rd movements



## Oortone (Mar 27, 2013)

It's often mentioned that Dvořák's Ninth, 3rd movement has similarities to Beethoven's Ninth, 2nd movement and I agree.

But I believe there's another similarity to another Ninth, namely Schubert's. It's not like it's identical but I find the middle section of the third movement in both symphonies being a bit similar:

Dvořák





Schubert





Interestingly Schubert quotes Beethoven's Ninth in the last movement.
And then Dvořák may be showing his appreciation with both these masterpieces in his own Ninth...
But I believe Schubert's The Great had the number eight in the 19th century.


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## Oortone (Mar 27, 2013)

Haha... I found this old thread of mine. Was there really no one else who shared my view in this regard?


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I don't think numbers were much used in the 19th century for Schubert symphonies. TBH I think it is a superficial similarity due to broadly shared austro-bohemian Laendler/folk heritage. But we know that Dvorak loved Schubert (whose instrumental music was still a bit of a dark horse a that time) and it could also be an intended similarity.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

FRANZ SCHUBERT
by Antonin Dvorak
(in collaboration with Henry T. Finck)
published in The Century Illustrated Monthly Magazine, New York, 1894
http://www.antonin-dvorak.cz/en/dvorak-on-schubert


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Oortone said:


> Interestingly Schubert quotes Beethoven's Ninth in the last movement.
> And then Dvořák may be showing his appreciation with both these masterpieces in his own Ninth...
> But I believe Schubert's The Great had the number eight in the 19th century.


Interesting. I can't think of any other cases of Schubert's 9th being similar to other composers' works, but certain transitions and orchestral accompaniment in his 8th reminds me of Mozart's requiem;








(and 



)


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Schubert's Great C major is modelled after Beethoven's 7th in many ways, but does not include quotations (count me skeptical about the supposed quotation from Beethoven's 9th in the finale, in any case this seems far less relevant to me). 
Large scale introduction, all fast movements dominatedy by "rhythm", and Schubert "out-beethovens" Beethoven by using even simpler rhythmic figures in the first and last movement. Large scale scherzo with a similar contrasting tonality for the trio (third downwards, F-D, C-A, Schubert does not follow the then rare example of the scherzo in a different key), moderately paced "walking" slow movement in a minor etc. Of course, it is still a very original piece and the movements sound rather different from Beethoven.

Except for a vague similarity at the beginning, I don't think the Dvorak 9th scherzo is very similar to Beethoven's. Supposedly, there is a connection to bohemian folk music and some people associated it with a Native American dance (sounds a bit far-fetched to me, but apparently there is an interpretation along the Hiawatha story).


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

hammeredklavier said:


> Interesting. I can't think of any other cases of Schubert's 9th being similar to other composers' works, but certain transitions and orchestral accompaniment in his 8th reminds me of Mozart's requiem;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I always thought the great C Major was the template for Bruckner


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

It was an important influence on Bruckner, certainly, especially the scherzo, I think.
Also (especially) the first movement on Schumann's "Spring symphony" (that has a similar return of the introduction music at the climax) and the horn call at the beginning of Brahms 2nd piano concerto.


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