# Liking Classical Music alienates people



## danj (Jun 1, 2017)

It seems that whenever the topic of musical discussion comes up, as it often does, whether it a work-place setting or among general friends (though it can vary between groups)... I tend to say opera/classical music and tones seem to change.

In my life, I have yet to meet another classical music listener who I've had any relationship with whether it be personal, via extension of family or workplace.

Almost everyone has liked anything but classical.

But I am not one to pry or ponder so when one asks now... I only sheepishly tell after I get to know them some time.

But I can't help feel that people cast judgement upon my fondness of the music and their actions reflect their disdain for it. (I am 28yr male if that makes a difference.)


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

danj said:


> It seems that whenever the topic of musical discussion comes up, as it often does, whether it a work-place setting or among general friends (though it can vary between groups)... I tend to say opera/classical music and tones seem to change.
> 
> In my life, I have yet to meet another classical music listener who I've had any relationship with whether it be personal, via extension of family or workplace.
> 
> ...


As another young man, I can generally relate to this. Saying you like classical music seems to have the same effect as saying I'm a pretentious jerk in most circles. I as well tend to try and avoid telling people I like classical music unless the situation specifically calls for it; whether this works, who knows, It hasn't helped me win friends or anything.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

BachIsBest said:


> As another young man, I can generally relate to this. Saying you like classical music seems to have the same effect as saying I'm a pretentious jerk in most circles. I as well tend to try and avoid telling people I like classical music unless the situation specifically calls for it; whether this works, who knows, It hasn't helped me win friends or anything.


I am very sorry for both of you guys who have posted above. It does take an effort to find people who share your interest. In the mean time, and under current circumstances, there is the internet. Nearing 70 and having dealt with this all my life, for me it's disappointing that attitudes are what they are now. If it's any comfort, more than likely they are wrong in their judgments and you are right in pursuing your interests. I'm interested in discussing this further if you wish.


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## danj (Jun 1, 2017)

Roger Knox said:


> I am very sorry for both of you guys who have posted above. It does take an effort to find people who share your interest. In the mean time, and under current circumstances, there is the internet. Nearing 70 and having dealt with this all my life, for me it's disappointing that attitudes are what they are now. If it's any comfort, more than likely they are wrong in their judgments and you are right in pursuing your interests. I'm interested in discussing this further if you wish.


It is a tumultuous affair, of course. But one would not pursue something worth the effort without putting up with the pain. Though, I do wish I could find more people with like-minded interests it is hard -- as you've described.

I do enjoy TalkClassical for this venue but nothing can beat listening and bonding over works of art in person.


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

Funny. It might be the friends I have, but I'm in my 20s (just about ) and I haven't found this at all tbh. People I mention my love of classical music to are generally respectful even if they don't "get it", and a couple have dipped their toes in the water after I've recommended works to them.

A friend circle (of which I'm the only serious classical fan) had a "one person recommends an album and everyone listens to and discusses it" club, and my picks of Schubert's Death and the Maiden quartet and Mendelssohn's Scottish symphony went down quite well, even if several people admitted it went a bit over their heads. :lol:

Might it be the way it gets brought up by you? My general experience is if you talk about what you enjoy openly, sincerely and with passion, people will appreciate that.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Gallus said:


> Funny. It might be the friends I have, but I'm in my 20s (just about ) I haven't found this at all tbh. People I mention my love of classical music to are generally respectful even if they don't "get it", and a couple have dipped their toes in the water after I've recommended works to them.
> 
> A friend circle had a "one person recommends an album and everyone listens to and discusses it" club, and my picks of Schubert's Death and the Maiden quartet and Mendelssohn's Scottish symphony went down quite well, even if several people admitted it went a bit over their heads. :lol:


Death and the Maiden is a good pick for that. However, the Scottish Symphony...I think the Hebrides Overture would be a better pick for newbies.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

danj said:


> It seems that whenever the topic of musical discussion comes up, as it often does, whether it a work-place setting or among general friends (though it can vary between groups)... I tend to say opera/classical music and tones seem to change.
> 
> In my life, I have yet to meet another classical music listener who I've had any relationship with whether it be personal, via extension of family or workplace.
> 
> ...





BachIsBest said:


> As another young man, I can generally relate to this. Saying you like classical music seems to have the same effect as saying I'm a pretentious jerk in most circles. I as well tend to try and avoid telling people I like classical music unless the situation specifically calls for it; whether this works, who knows, It hasn't helped me win friends or anything.


Yup, I feel it too. Currently, I'm a junior in college. Not too long ago, at college, this person was talking to me about all these popular artists I had never heard of then asked me what music I listen to. All these thoughts went through my head as I mentioned that I listen to classical music...

"Will they think I'm narrow-minded?" "Will they think I'm some uppity-up person?" "Will they associate me with all the nonsense that these articles recommended to me on Google seem to think classical music is all about?"

This was probably mostly in my head, but when I see all these articles on the internet where people seem to be out to destroy classical music (e.g., classical music is "sexist", "racist", "elitist", etc. malarkey), I just tend to be afraid to talk about it. And goodness me, what will happen if I tell them my favorite composer is Wagner and they look him up? It seems unlikely that many people will be willing to take the time to look into classical music to see past all these unfair associations.

I'm not ashamed that I like classical music, but, yes, I do worry about talking about it sometimes. And not many people I come across listen to it. That's why I'm on Talk Classical everyday.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

I live and work in a University neighborhood. So my experiences are not typical. However, if I were to offer advice on how to broach the subject of classical music to people, it would be this:

Compare classical to things that are popular. Most people love orchestral music, they just don't know it. John Williams scores, Looney Tunes cartoons, etc. So you could talk about how great the music to Superman or Star Wars or (insert Marvel movie X) was. Then you could talk about how it was a lot like some classical piece (e.g. a Rossini overture or a Tchaikovsky symphony).

Avoid using terms that assign superiority. Instead of saying "classical is so much more emotionally involving than X," say "listening to classical really allows me to focus on the feelings created by the music."

Talk about it from a technical angle. Classical is a great way to give a pair of headphones or a good stereo system a workout. Lots of people are tech heads, and you can smuggle classical into your friendship that way. Demo a few of your best tracks for someone. If they're a vinyl hipster, classical is a HUGE market waiting for them.

Share music! Curate a playlist for them on their favorite streaming service. Put some FLAC files on a thumb drive. Lend them a CD (yeah, yeah, I know, the youngs don't use those any more - I am 43, so I grew up with CDS).


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

adriesba said:


> Yup, I feel it too. Currently, I'm a junior in college. Not too long ago, at college, this person was talking to me about all these popular artists I had never heard of then asked me what music I listen to. All these thoughts went through my head as I mentioned that I listen to classical music...
> 
> "Will they think I'm narrow-minded?" "Will they think I'm some uppity-up person?" "Will they associate me with all the nonsense that these articles recommended to me on Google seem to think classical music is all about?"
> 
> ...


Very many of my friends are aware I'm utterly nuts about Wagner and it has become a bit of an inside joke in some cases. I talk about my classical music love the same way as about any other music. I haven't acquaintaned much prejudices at all although I have had to explain the Wagner-Hitler affair a couple of times :lol:. I wouldn't be afraid to speak about classical music, unless you go on to claim some sort of superiority of your musical tastes

I haven't met people of my age in real life who were as passionate about classical music as I am. That's why I spend quite a lot of time online here. I would probably still be living in musical ignorance without TC


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

When Johannes Witnesses show up at your door.


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## Tom H (Oct 26, 2020)

Hearing classical music played live is a game-changer. When I was a kid, the symphony came to our school, set up in the cafeteria, and roared through breathtaking renditions of famous pieces (like the William Tell Overture). I'm sure it helped to kickstart my love of this music.


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## Axter (Jan 15, 2020)

I feel you guys!

I started listening and liking classical music when I was 10 yrs old. That was after I saw my first VPO New Year’s concert on TV. 
Later, I would save my pocket money to buy LPs of various composers, mainly Beethoven etc... Then attended my first concert when I was 12, after my mother permitted me to go on my own, to Musikverein Saal, Vienna. I think I was the youngest lad there, I was wearing a black suit, white shirt and a bow tie trying to look adult (haha).
Well I was a bit shy telling my friends at school I liked classical music. None of them did. And whenever I did, I felt being a bit left out. So I avoided mentioning that all together till I was in my end 30ies. Now in my 40ies, it doesn’t sound odd at all. It has to do with age I guess and the age (maturity) of the people around you.
If it helps any, here is what I said most times when I was asked what type of music I like: “Oh a lot of things from classical to Jazz, to Pop etc...” So I would mention Classical among other “common” genres of music and see peoples’ reaction, then I would know which genre I should talk more about and which not.

So yes guys, ignore what others say. Enjoy what you enjoy and thank god for TC, we are all here for the same reason I guess!


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

When I was young, I didn't mind telling people in a casual conversation that I listened to classical music. It was kind of cool to be different.

When I was working, I needed to be a bit more careful. While I wouldn't let myself sound like an elitist, I'd also have to assess the risk of the other person thinking I was an elitist because of their prejudice against classical music regardless how/what I would speak about it. One bad move, and your career could get into trouble that you could never have imagined.

Now that I'm retired, I don't mind telling people I listen to classical music either. I just don't give a pickle what they think of classical music, or me listening to it. The only slightly annoying thing is that the conversation on classical music could never be continued in a meaningful or interactive way. Otherwise, I don't feel bothered emotionally. And then there are many other things in life that's worth talking about. Shall we start talking about infrared photography, or how to make carrot haters eat carrot?

On the other hand, 

I was once on the receiving end of such a conversation many years ago when I was at the university - I overheard a few classmates talking about a new LP release of Tchaikovsky's Pathétique, and I joined in asking which recording, and the reply was, "we're talking about classical music. You don't know it." 

Oh yeah? OK, you people who listen to classical music are rude, disgusting elitist. :lol:


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

I don't know how it is now, but when I was teenager (in the 1990's), young people created their identity through the type of music they listened to. So we had rockers, punkers, metalheads, disco/techno/rave fans, folk fans, Depeche Mode fans etc. Every genre had its special culture, dress code, type of dance. For example the punkers had pogo dance
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogo_(dance)
I remember the folks who listened to folk or classical were viewed as somewhat weird, because they could not join any of those other groups.
I discovered CM after this phase, ie after I was already some years out of university. I am glad I went through the rock/punk phase and experienced the rock concerts and rave parties etc. 
And my experience now is that most people around me dont care much for music at all. I know people who dont listen to any music at all. I know some snobs who listen to prog rock, thinking how refined their musical tastes are. I dont know anyone who listens to CM.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

Normal, perfectly normal, it is a global norm. You should not talk classical with occasional people, period, only with your closest friends. I do not even talk about classical with my nieces, cousins, other relatives which are not in my closest contact. I do not blame people for that, but on the other hand, wealthy people are able to convince their surrounding people to listen to classical, they have a lot of followers on internet socialization accounts which share their listening programs. Leave the errand of spreading the trend to them.


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## HerbertNorman (Jan 9, 2020)

I can relate to all that has been said above! But in my case it's just a case of listening to many genres of music and deciding which one I liked the VERY best. Because I really like my rock and jazz music too . It's just a case of liking the classical music even more...

I tend to refer to my general love of music and how I came to loving classical music when I was in my late teens. I was 17 years old when I really got into listening to classical music. Before that I just had a few works I liked...

Now , as has been mentioned, I just talk about classical music to those who understand or have any knowledge of the genre... It's not politically correct probably , but some just wouldn't be able to understand the music let alone love it...


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

It used to be like this when I was in my teens. I would say "classical", and people would think I was a boring rich kid, and add yet another brick to alienation and my "otherness".

Later I started studying composition, and learned that telling people that I am studying to become a composer completely turns the tide. Composers can't be snobs, because people assume they are God-blessed wizards.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

I think I was lucky with my mates. I used to practice piano in a room in the local church hall as practise at home was limited for the neighbours sake. My mates would be playing 5 a side football in the big room next to me whilst I was trying to get to grips with the cadenza in the Grieg piano concerto. Of course during a beak, I'd nip into the game and score a few goals.... It did help that we all grew up together of course and a few of us wanted to start a band (pop group that is)....but that was mainly to get girls.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

danj said:


> Liking Classical Music alienates people


better stay alone then and to hell with people.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Got to say it's never bothered me one way or the other. My attitude has always been that, if my interest in classical music bothers you, we're probably both better off seeking human contact elsewhere, but I've consistently found that it isn't a problem anyway if I've already palled up with the individuals concerned.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

As long as it alienates the _right_ people.


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## Chilham (Jun 18, 2020)

If classical music is the sole basis for developing your relationships, it may well alienate others. I have friends I went to school with who like classical, and who don't. I have friends who ride motorcycles who like classical, and who don't. I have neighbours who enjoy all kinds of music, including the guy who supplied Clapton and most of the stars of the sixties and seventies with their guitars, and others who don't. I have work colleagues, including a former professional lyric soprano, who enjoy classical and others who don't. I have friends who support my rugby club, although classical music has never come-up as a topic for discussion.

If you allow one thing to define you, you restrict your ability to interact with others on their terms. Be interested in them, don't try to be interesting to them. If they find you and your interests interesting, they'll let you know. If they don't, you'll still have learned a little about them, and maybe found another avenue to connect.

Not a comment on the OP, just a general observation.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

My experience is exactly like the OP. Usually it's a well-intentioned small-talk starter - "What kind of music do you like?" And when I tell them sometimes you could literally hear a pin drop. If I'm lucky I'll get, "Yeah, that's relaxing," or something awkward like that. And when I tell people I play classical piano the response is usually, "You should learn jazz, man! It's way cooler!" I do think some people are well aware of my over the top Bach obsession (which takes precedence in my musical passions) but the only people I've ever known that have been knowledgeable enough about it have been my music teachers. Honest to goodness I don't think I've ever had a legitimate discussion about classical music anywhere besides this forum. Y'all have saved my life:tiphat:


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

When I was in fourth grade, we were all tasked with bringing our favorite music to class. This was the mid 70's when Rock & Roll was *forever*. No. Really. Forever. I sealed my fate when I innocently brought Glenn Gould's recording of Bach's BWV 1053 (possibly my all-time favorite piece of music). That, and that every Southern Ohio, dirt bike, chainsaw, deer hunting classmate knew that I was recently from Germany and - need I go on?

A funny thing happened though. I developed a circle of friends and we started playing D&D when D&D was still just a board game with no books yet. While we played, I played the Sagan "Cosmos" soundtrack in the background, or Walter Carlos's (when she was still Walter) Switched on Bach/Brandenburgs. All my ******* friends turned into classical music lovers. One of them became a Truck driver who cranked the Brandenburgs from coast to coast.


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## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

I apprehend that this is a discussion mostly for younger people, as the opium of time will have dulled the pangs of alienation for those of us who have lived a long time on this earth. But I have memories, so I'd like to say that I found it wholesome to strike up relationships, if not always exactly friendships, with other music students who were interested in classical; that I tried never to disparage other kinds of music; and that shared musical taste never turned out to be contingent for the closest and most important relationships in my life. The slow, steady accumulation of experience with classical music over a lifetime is a beautiful thing of which younger enthusiasts can be assured.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

It must be mentioned that classical music is not considered nerdy in East Asia as far as I know, my previous post might be misunderstood, not to talk with people not because of being afraid of estrangement, just simply out of the reservedness. If you talk about classical and about being able to play some instrument to people in college or work-places, you will get some friends quickly. I know in the west it might be the contrary, because STEM and communist punks have the more limelight recently. I almost talk no classical outside this forum on the internet, in real life, with musical pals only.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

Double Click, delete.


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## Aurelian (Sep 9, 2011)

MatthewWeflen said:


> I live and work in a University neighborhood. So my experiences are not typical. However, if I were to offer advice on how to broach the subject of classical music to people, it would be this:
> 
> Compare classical to things that are popular. Most people love orchestral music, they just don't know it. John Williams scores, Looney Tunes cartoons, etc. So you could talk about how great the music to Superman or Star Wars or (insert Marvel movie X) was. Then you could talk about how it was a lot like some classical piece (e.g. a Rossini overture or a Tchaikovsky symphony).
> 
> ...


Good first works are _Ride of the Valkyries_ and "Mars" from _The Planets._ _Procession of the Sardar_ might work also.

A soft choice would be Schubert's 5th Symphony.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Many many people don't really know classical music and have a false impression formed by watching movies or just repeated cliches like "oh I love classical music, it's so relaxing". They have the impression that everything played by an orchestra is classical music and that classical music is always soft and easy. They also think that only old and boring people can enjoy it since the music is old and not hip. Hard to change such preconceived notions without hard work so I don't even try. I used to try to talk to such people about classical music but I found the effort was too painful and often fell on deaf ears.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Being a classical listener can indeed be a lonely venture. I know hundreds of musicians, and even among them I'm the oddball. Some of them don't ever listen to classical, own a classical cd, or go to concerts - they play in an orchestra and play the music, but outside of that they are attuned to pop/rock/jazz. I know only one other person who is as addicted to buying cds, scores, and books as I am. When I was kid in high school, friends would get together and listen to some new album, say Rolling Stones. It meant nothing to me and I would go do other, more important thing, like listen to Beethoven. I have never been one to give in to peer pressure. Now as Medicare kicks in, I have even less tolerance for rock than when I was a kid. Life is too short to waste on junk music - or movies, books and booze for that matter. If my love of classical alienates people that's their problem. There's still some pent up frustration at parents and teachers I harbor for their non-understanding and rude things they said that I probably need to see a shrink about. But I've moved past it all and now, the weather is nice, I can put the top down on the roadster put on Wagner, Puccini, Beethoven and company, turn the volume way up and let people stare at me. I couldn't care less what they think.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Ariasexta said:


> It must be mentioned that classical music is not considered nerdy in East Asia as far as I know, my previous post might be misunderstood, not to talk with people not because of being afraid of estrangement, just simply out of the reservedness. If you talk about classical and about being able to play some instrument to people in college or work-places, you will get some friends quickly. I know in the west it might be the contrary, because STEM and communist punks have the more limelight recently. I almost talk no classical outside this forum on the internet, in real life, with musical pals only.


*Cough, cough* I haven't exactly analysed the connections between classical music and communism but STEM and classical music are by no means contradictory. I'm very STEM-oriented person and so are very many of my friends. Despite that, classical music is definitely not considered to be an unpopular discussion topic. Incidentally, I was cramming for one midterm exam with a few friends today while listening to Faure's string quartet for the weekly SQ thread. Two of my friends noticed what I was listening to - one praised (and he's rather STEM) the Ebene recording and the second complimented my musical taste. As far as I know, neither of them have studied an instrument.

I think it largely comes down to cultural and educational differences. Europe, the US and Asia are undoubtedly culturally very different regions.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

mbhaub said:


> Being a classical listener can indeed be a lonely venture. I know hundreds of musicians, and even among them I'm the oddball. Some of them don't ever listen to classical, own a classical cd, or go to concerts - they play in an orchestra and play the music, but outside of that they are attuned to pop/rock/jazz. I know only one other person who is as addicted to buying cds, scores, and books as I am. When I was kid in high school, friends would get together and listen to some new album, say Rolling Stones. It meant nothing to me and I would go do other, more important thing, like listen to Beethoven. I have never been one to give in to peer pressure. Now as Medicare kicks in, I have even less tolerance for rock than when I was a kid. Life is too short to waste on junk music - or movies, books and booze for that matter. If my love of classical alienates people that's their problem. There's still some pent up frustration at parents and teachers I harbor for their non-understanding and rude things they said that I probably need to see a shrink about. But I've moved past it all and now, the weather is nice, I can put the top down on the roadster put on Wagner, Puccini, Beethoven and company, turn the volume way up and let people stare at me. I couldn't care less what they think.


If I saw someone blasting Wagner, Puccini, or Beethoven (three of my five favorite composers) as they went down the street, I would give them a big smile and a gesture of approval.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

annaw said:


> *Cough, cough* I haven't exactly analysed the connections between classical music and communism but STEM and classical music are by no means contradictory. I'm very STEM-oriented person and so are very many of my friends. Despite that, classical music is by no means considered to be an unpopular discussion topic. Incidentally, I was cramming for one midterm exam with a few friends today while listening to Faure's string quartet for the weekly SQ thread. Two of my friends noticed what I was listening to - one praised (and he's rather STEM) the Ebene recording and the second complimented my musical taste. As far as I know, neither of them have studied an instrument.
> 
> I think it largely comes down to cultural and educational differences. Europe, the US and Asia are undoubtedly culturally very different regions.


You are so lucky to have friends like that! Around where I live in the US, people who appreciate that sort of thing seem to be about as rare as bird teeth.


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

Some people told me only ''serial killers and weirdos'' listen to classical...


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Fabulin said:


> It used to be like this when I was in my teens. I would say "classical", and people would think I was a boring rich kid, and add yet another brick to alienation and my "otherness".
> 
> Later I started studying composition, and learned that telling people that I am studying to become a composer completely turns the tide. Composers can't be snobs, because people assume they are God-blessed wizards.


Poetry makes an interesting contrast to classical music. Reading poetry is acceptable, but to declare oneself a poet (as I am)? As Robert Frost put it, might as well hang a millstone round one's neck.

There's also no equivalent in poetry (in terms of success) to the development of folk music, jazz, rock & roll and pop (after classical music pretty much went off into theoretical realms that were utterly divorced from the popular marketplace). Traditional poetry (poetry that's metrical and/or rhymed) still remains far more popular than contemporary free verse (despite claims to the contrary). John Ashbery, for example, while having his core followers, is probably up there with Stockhausen as far as an audience goes. He's already fading, and quickly, from popular consciousness.

So, I'd say that poetry is the reverse of music in terms of its mass appeal. Whereas few have heard of the classical composers discussed on this forum, equally few have heard of the vast majority of contemporary poets; but most have read poetry by Eliot, WC Williams, Frost, Keats, Shakespeare, etc...


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I grew up in a Rt.128 suburb of Boston, so there was always a percentage of classmates who liked, listened to, or even played CM. And any sufficiently large college has CM appreciators in its student body. Nevertheless, being teen or college student in the '60s and '70s who didn't like rock could be pretty dreadful, and I refused to pretend to like something I couldn't stand for the sake of social acceptance. It could have its good points, though. I had good, tolerant, and fun hallmates in my college dorm. When a room opened up in the middle of the term and the housing office sent people over to look at it, we quickly judged the prospective mate (alcoholic jocks would not have been a good fit, for instance) and I would open my door and blast Wagner into the hallway and scare them off.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

annaw said:


> *Cough, cough* I haven't exactly analysed the connections between classical music and communism but STEM and classical music are by no means contradictory. I'm very STEM-oriented person and so are very many of my friends. Despite that, classical music is definitely not considered to be an unpopular discussion topic. Incidentally, I was cramming for one midterm exam with a few friends today while listening to Faure's string quartet for the weekly SQ thread. Two of my friends noticed what I was listening to - one praised (and he's rather STEM) the Ebene recording and the second complimented my musical taste. As far as I know, neither of them have studied an instrument.
> 
> I think it largely comes down to cultural and educational differences. Europe, the US and Asia are undoubtedly culturally very different regions.


In China STEM conflicts with cultural development in people, this is how the left leads science against culture. It is corrosive. I hope it would not happen in the rest of the world. However, luckily people still respect classical music a lot here. The western scientific hegemony convinces people of the rest of the world that classical music is something to look up to, but it is just an instinctive awe before the power. The true appreciation only comes after the audacious critical thinking on the whole human history of science and civilization. It may also explain why western billies look down on classical while foreigners look up to it in general, western people lacks the awe for their own power.

So, here I am scientifically disillusioned, politically rebellous. But I know, scientists listening to good music is never a bad thing, and will always help to better the world, because music needs some science to survive too.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Aurelian said:


> Good first works are _Ride of the Valkyries_ and "Mars" from _The Planets._ _Procession of the Sardar_ might work also.
> 
> A soft choice would be Schubert's 5th Symphony.


Yeah, Mars is a great choice. I think Mozart's Eine Kleine Nachtmusik is good for beginners, too. William Tell Overture, Tannhauser Overture, Barber of Seville Overture, and some of the Grieg Peer Gynt Suites would probably go over well.

I think going with symphonies is trickier, since many people are intimidated by 30+ minute works. But if you had to, Beethoven's 5th seems like an obvious choice.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

annaw said:


> Incidentally, I was cramming for one midterm exam with a few friends today while listening to Faure's string quartet for the weekly SQ thread. Two of my friends noticed what I was listening to - one praised (and he's rather STEM) the Ebene recording and the second complimented my musical taste. As far as I know, neither of them have studied an instrument. I think it largely comes down to cultural and educational differences. Europe, the US and Asia are undoubtedly culturally very different regions


That brings back memories! Fauré's last composition, the String Quartet (1924) almost immediately developed a high reputation in advanced musical circles (much less in performance then). It began with championship by his student Nadia Boulanger and others, and continued in North America with strong endorsements by her students including Aaron Copland and Elliot Carter. My own composition teacher like many had studied with her and I remember him speaking about "that quartet." Back in the 1970's I did a very detailed analysis of contrapuntal structures in the quartet for my master's thesis. The recording that turned me on was an LP by the Guarneri Quartet; on the other side was Fauré's C minor Piano Quartet with Arthur Rubinstein. I liked that piece even better!

I like your story. Even if they didn't study musical instruments, maybe your friends know that Estonia is respected worldwide (among other things!) for its classical musicians including contemporary composers. As far your comment about attitudes, I believe that in Canada there is something of each world region you mentioned. Now the USA is the strongest influence but things keep changing.


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## musichal (Oct 17, 2020)

I was eleven years old when our elementary class was bussed in to hear a live symphony orchestra - the world-renowned Jackson (Mississippi) Municipal Orchestra of 1965. When the music began, I was riveted - I sat enthralled throughout the entire program, to the delight of my teacher. I could never be ashamed to love this music.

But then, I loved all music - most, anyway. As time crept on, my friends accepted that, along with the Animals, Guess Who, Who, Stones, Led Zep and hundreds of other pop/rock bands, there would be Beethoven, Bach and dozens of other composers. There would also be jazz and country.

I spent a few months working at a record shop, and about three years selling high end audio, so I knew many CM lovers and it never seemed odd or off-putting to me.

It is with a smile that every now and then I recall a young lady who spent the night with me when I moved into my own place at age eighteen. I'd put a Sinatra lp on the brand-new Thorens, and, lying together on the nakedy bed, she sighed and remarked, "This is so nice... I never even realized that I liked classical music until now."


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

I've never had a problem with it...growing up we were surrounded by classical music lovers...both my parents and their friends, social groups were music lovers...
The public school I attended was really excellent - very strong community support - it excelled in academics, music, athletics and the arts (lots of scientific people, and college faculty members)...believe it or not, music held equal status with athletics!! (Believe.me, that is rare!!)
Membership in band, orchestra, chorus was prestigious, and included all sorts of benefits - exchange concerts, trips, passes out of class for rehearsals and assembly performances, etc, etc....we had a whole group of music kids Male and female, that hung out together...
Then I went to a major conservatory (Eastman) where you are simply inundated with music types....I always had lots of non-musical friends, I was pretty decent athlete and participated in school sports....love of classical music was never really an issue, then or now...


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I was pretty lucky. In one company I worked there were quite a few Russian imigrants. They knew their Classical, all the performers like Heifetz, Horowitz (supposedly pronounced 'Gorovitz') composers like Bruckner. Another European guy I met there introduced me to a composer of his nationality I didn't know at the time, Enescu.

It appeared to me that a lot of immigrants from Eastern Bloc countries have Classical music in their blood.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Yeah, I don't meet too many classical music people in day to day life. I guess you could say it's alienating, but I'm a loner anyway and I don't mind. My girlfriend loves classical music too—she's the one who got me into it—so that's enough for me. I definitely wouldn't ever expect anyone I meet "in real life" to enjoy classical music and I don't bring it up unless it happens to come up. 

Why, and when, did classical music ever get such a bad rap, anyway? I blame A Clockwork Orange...


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Animal the Drummer said:


> Got to say it's never bothered me one way or the other. My attitude has always been that, if my interest in classical music bothers you, we're probably both better off seeking human contact elsewhere, but I've consistently found that it isn't a problem anyway if I've already palled up with the individuals concerned.


Yup. That's me too.

........


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## BlackAdderLXX (Apr 18, 2020)

I identify with many of the sentiments in this thread. I didn't get into classical until I was in college 30 years ago. Until this past year I had not been a heavy CM listener, but I've always had Beethoven, Mozart, Prokofiev and Vivaldi on any digital music device I've had. At home I mostly wear headphones. My wife says she doesn't hate classical, but she doesn't care for it. My teenage kids do okay with it. My 17yo in particular is pretty open to different things. All that said, I usually listen to other music with my family.

I'm also the music minister at my church so sometimes the band shows up early to me blasting CM through the PA system. I usually get an odd look, but there's usually no comment. 

It's a small world, but thankfully the internet helps us meet folks with similar interests.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

So a week ago Sunday, I was doing my grocery shopping... as I pulled the car into a slot, an upper middle-aged lady was just opening her car to put her groceries in....I had Bernstein/NYPO Sibelius #5/III going on the car stereo....as I shut down and exited my car, this lady says "Oh, my!! That is such beautiful music!!" Me: "It's Sibelius, 5th symphony, he's a Finnish composer"
Lady: "it is so beautiful, I've never heard such beautiful music!"
So. It doesn't always come out negatively!!


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Heck148 said:


> So a week ago Sunday, I was doing my grocery shopping... as I pulled the car into a slot, an upper middle-aged lady was just opening her car to put her groceries in....I had Bernstein/NYPO Sibelius #5/III going on the car stereo....as I shut down and exited my car, this lady says "Oh, my!! That is such beautiful music!!" Me: "It's Sibelius, 5th symphony, he's a Finnish composer"
> Lady: "it is so beautiful, I've never heard such beautiful music!"
> So. It doesn't always come out negatively!!


I had an experience similar to that several years ago. I was playing a CPE Bach sonata played by Pletnev on a jobsite. A woman visiting the jobsite (contracting/carpentry) was so taken by the recording, deciding it was so beautiful, that she bought the CD from me. (I got another one.)


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Also, I used to be a classical music buyer for Tower Records. I always outsold the jazz section and occasionally outsold the rock/pop section—often because of the music I played.


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

The main reason I found TC is because I have no one in my personal life who has such a love for classical music as I do. Growing up, it was a bit different. I grew up in the inner city, studied martial arts at a young age, was always outgoing, and knew how to handle myself with the tough kids (some were my friends), so when people found out I was practicing classical piano, no one ever really said anything.

I never developed a "love" of classical music until I was in college. I always appreciated it, but growing up, I was into Rock & Roll which was the norm. Every once in a while, I would be made fun of in middle school for playing the piano, but it was usually from guys I got along with OK. I was also an athlete and actor, which confounded a lot of kids who had this mentality: "Wait, he plays the piano, he's an actor, AND he's an athlete who studies martial arts???" Yeah, open your minds a little, it's possible to have varied interests. Then in High School, when at a party that had a piano, I would sit down and start playing, all the girls would gather round, and I would just give the guys a "_yeah, so go F#*k yourselves!_" look and smile.

I understand a lot of the frustration on this thread with not having someone in your life who has a love of CM as we do. I have some friends who have asked for some classical starters and have given them a flash drive with a lot of the popular pieces they would recognize from TV and movies, but no one has ever come back asking for more. I've always hoped to meet another person who loves classical music, cigars, scotch, and wine who also lives close. Bonus if they ride motorcycles too. I have lots of friends who are into all of those except classical music.

I can't say though I've ever felt "alienated" because I love CM. I always include CM when discussing what kind(s) of music I like and have never had anyone "pull back" because I mentioned that CM is my favorite genre. Because I'm a big guy, shaved head with a goatee (my wife thinks I look "tough"), I find more people are surprised/intrigued that I have such a love for classical music. I guess I don't "look" the type, as if a lover of CM should "look" a certain way. So, it's TC here for me. There is so much in the world of CM and I have learned so much here, so this place has been great for enjoyment of one of my biggest passions in life.

V


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

I think I lost some potential g.f.s because of it...


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Flamme said:


> I think I lost some potential g.f.s because of it...


Definitely eliminated a lot of potential dates. For sure. But probably for the best. God forbid I had married a girl who listened to Bob Dylan all day long. Christ, THE most over-rated musician of the 20th century.*

* To be filed under _My Unpopular Opinion_.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

In response to the OP.

I seem to be doubly 'cursed'.

I am alienated by the general music listening population for my love classical. 

But I am alienated again, by the majority of people here, for listening to mostly post 1950's classical music.


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## Judas Priest Fan (Apr 27, 2018)

I couldn´t care less what others think of my musical taste.

I´m 55 now, and have never ever cared what anyone thought about what I wear, how I look, what I drive or listen to


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Simon Moon said:


> In response to the OP.
> 
> I seem to be doubly 'cursed'.
> 
> ...


Meh. I feel alienated, by the majority of people here, for listening to mostly pre 1750's classical music.


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

Simon Moon said:


> In response to the OP.
> 
> I seem to be doubly 'cursed'.
> 
> ...


Boooo!! Boooo!!!



vtpoet said:


> Meh. I feel alienated, by the majority of people here, for listening to mostly pre 1750's classical music.


Boooo! Booooo!

Just seeing if you guys are feeling even MORE alienated here now. 

V


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

Seriously, I don't know why having an unpopular taste or opinion about music should make one feel alienated. I can't stand Stravinsky's Rite of Spring. It is a VERY unpopular opinion on this site. I don't feel "alienated" because of it. It's just what it is: My opinion on a particularly popular and admired piece. Oh well. That's what makes a ball game.

If you want to feel alienated, be a cigar smoker in 2020 in the USA!

V


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

I sometimes discuss classical music with my father, who had been a collector before I was born, and is (I think) overly critical about Brahms


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Varick said:


> . . . If you want to feel alienated, be a cigar smoker in 2020 in the USA!


If you want alienation, try hating chocolate. (Or, try being a non-drinker at pretty much any gathering of adults. I have occasionally considered pretending that I once had a drinking problem, or some medical condition, just to make people calmer about it.)


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

JAS said:


> If you want alienation, try hating chocolate. (Or, try being a non-drinker at pretty much any gathering of adults. I have occasionally considered pretending that I once had a drinking problem, or some medical condition, just to make people calmer about it.)


Try being a 21-year-old non-drinker at a gathering of adults...


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

What good is being popular? You'll have too many people inviting you to boring events or dropping by to talk over your precious music. Enjoy your solitude.


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## Chilham (Jun 18, 2020)

starthrower said:


> What good is being popular? You'll have too many people inviting you to boring events or dropping by to talk over your precious music. Enjoy your solitude.


You say, "Introvert".

I say, "State of the art filtration system that improves the quality and purity of interaction by preemptively removing contaminants."


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Chilham said:


> You say, "Introvert".
> 
> I say, "State of the art filtration system that improves the quality and purity of interaction by preemptively removing contaminants."


Hopefully you take a deep breath before saying that.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

BachIsBest said:


> Try being a 21-year-old non-drinker at a gathering of adults...


I did that, but it was a very long time ago.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_In my life, I have yet to meet another classical music listener who I've had any relationship with whether it be personal, via extension of family or workplace._

If it's any consolation I am 70 years of age and have known two people in life via work (about 45 years working) that I was able to attend concerts and share recording with. Neither person had my interest in recordings or the overall industry, however.

I also have a former high school teacher in another state I can discuss it with to lesser extent.

I have performed in a choral society since the 1980s and in church choir about the same duration; not made one connection in either place. I've never known anyone with my level of interest in classical music.

When you come to places like this or go to concerts it seems there are lots of people interested. In an empirical sense that is probably true. But it is a much lonelier existence in a personal sense unless you are part of a performing ensemble or otherwise are routinely around musicians.


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## thejewk (Sep 13, 2020)

To be frank, I think the response you are liable to get after mentioning classical music when asked for your preference is as result of the other person's lack of knowledge than anything else. When your average person asks what music you like as an opener to a conversation, if you give them an answer which that can't do anything with, awkwardness will probably ensue. 

This isn't exclusive to classical music either. The same is true of most of my other musical interests and favourite literature, and numismatics too. As someone that has explored a lot of music, I usually reflect the question back to the person asking, and then relate my own preferences to those of the other person. If they talk exclusively in pop terms, I'll talk pop with them. Most people are just looking for a common frame of reference to get the conversation flowing.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

When I am asked, I usually say that I mostly listen to dead white European males, which they think might be a punk band.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

JAS said:


> If you want alienation, try hating chocolate. (Or, try being a non-drinker at pretty much any gathering of adults. I have occasionally considered pretending that I once had a drinking problem, or some medical condition, just to make people calmer about it.)


Try hating dogs! Those superfluous producers of noise and dirt...


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Fabulin said:


> Try hating dogs! Those superfluous producers of noise and dirt...


There's something "off" with folks who hate dogs. Where's Trump?


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

thejewk said:


> To be frank, I think the response you are liable to get after mentioning classical music when asked for your preference is as result of the other person's lack of knowledge than anything else. When your average person asks what music you like as an opener to a conversation, if you give them an answer which that can't do anything with, awkwardness will probably ensue.
> 
> This isn't exclusive to classical music either. The same is true of most of my other musical interests and favourite literature, and numismatics too. As someone that has explored a lot of music, I usually reflect the question back to the person asking, and then relate my own preferences to those of the other person. If they talk exclusively in pop terms, I'll talk pop with them. Most people are just looking for a common frame of reference to get the conversation flowing.


This comment is spot on. Classical music is somewhat of a niche interest (from a macro perspective, I mean) so you're not going to find common ground with most other people with the subject of classical. I think it's probably one of the biggest draws of this forum, since we all share a common interest but not one we have anybody to talk about in real life with, or at least very few and not nearly on the same level of depth, like in my case.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Sometimes people's animus toward classical music can be traced to particular political or cultural stances. My prime candidate for this animus is punk -- partly the music but also a general attitude toward art and life. Toward the end of the 70's the disillusionment of many who found reality clashed with their ideals led them to the hard-edged rebelliousness of punk. In music there was special animus toward prog rock, and more generally to anything considered elitist in the intellectual and cultural areas, e.g. classical music.


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## thejewk (Sep 13, 2020)

Roger Knox said:


> Sometimes people's animus toward classical music can be traced to particular political or cultural stances. My prime candidate for this animus is punk -- partly the music but also a general attitude toward art and life. Toward the end of the 70's the disillusionment of many who found reality clashed with their ideals led them to the hard-edged rebelliousness of punk. In music there was special animus toward prog rock, and more generally to anything considered elitist in the intellectual and cultural areas, e.g. classical music.


Speaking personally, and idiosyncratically considering I wasn't born until 1983, punk was a real flash in the pan moment that lasted about five minutes, and the real legacy was the wonderful post punk music that grew out of it. I think the mistake that a lot of people make with regards to music trends is to think that we should have to throw out the old when the new comes in. I see no fathomable reason why I shouldn't have my Canterbury scene prog, alongside my Can records, the Sex Pistols, Bach, John Coltrane, and anything else I fancy besides it.

When it comes to classical music, I had practically zero exposure to it as a child, and nobody that I knew had any interest in it either. I played (very badly) in a few concerts as a cellist at school, but the musical education was so poor that nobody thought to point me to any recording that might be worth listening to at the time, and I inevitably dropped it and picked up a guitar instead, an instrument which was actually relevant to what I listened to. The only reason I listen to classical music now is a result of my curiosity combined with having the means to be able to explore the repertoire.

I think that people sometimes imagine classical music as this great tradition that everyone has access to, when in fact the vast majority of people have no exposure to it other than as irritatingly lo-fi hold music while calling the doctors' surgery, and as with almost any other area of interest, unless you were raised with it, it takes a huge amount of time, effort and patience to get anywhere at all beyond a 'popular melodies' type compilation.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

BachIsBest said:


> Try being a 21-year-old non-drinker at a gathering of adults...


There's nothing wrong with being a non-drinker. I'm 53 and except for a handful of times when peer pressure got to me and I went going out drinking with friends in late teens/early twenties, I haven't bothered at all with alcohol. I never liked the taste, it made me feel sick, and made me feel stupid the next day. At age 29 I married a lady who opposed drinking because alcoholism runs in her family and she saw too many relatives die young from cirrhosis of the liver. We run a dry house. Whenever we go out to eat or on vacation we save tons of money that we don't have to spend on drinks, and that also gives me more extra cash to buy records and CDs that I can have for rest of my life, as opposed to spending money on alcohol that I'll end up (literally) flushing down the toilet.

One of the greatest moments in every life is when you stop caring what other people think. What they think of what you do only matters if YOU yourself have a problem with it.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Classical music appeals to a smaller group from a general population perspective compared to other major genres. But there is strong appreciation from the admirers and there is broad awareness of its existence. I don't think it alienates people who are mature enough to know people can enjoy CM just as much as they might enjoy gangster rap. There is more challenge within the CM lovers (for example, members here) who might feel that certain types of CM are questionable (often in the avant-garde versus classical music discussions).


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Coach G said:


> There's nothing wrong with being a non-drinker. I'm 53 and except for a handful of times when peer pressure got to me and I went going out drinking with friends in late teens/early twenties, I haven't bothered at all with alcohol. I never liked the taste, it made me feel sick, and made me feel stupid the next day. At age 29 I married a lady who opposed drinking because alcoholism runs in her family and she saw too many relatives die young from cirrhosis of the liver. We run a dry house. Whenever we go out to eat or on vacation we save tons of money that we don't have to spend on drinks, and that also gives me more extra cash to buy records and CDs that I can have for rest of my life, as opposed to spending money on alcohol that I'll end up (literally) flushing down the toilet.
> 
> One of the greatest moments in every life is when you stop caring what other people think. What they think of what you do only matters if YOU yourself have a problem with it.


The money-saving part isn't why don't drink, but it really is a huge perk. The problem isn't really so much what people think of me (I don't care too much), but that it makes for awkward situations; however, I realise I could choose to drink, but find not drinking the superior option on the whole so I can't really complain too much.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Bulldog said:


> There's something "off" with folks who hate dogs. Where's Trump?


I hate dogs, and I especially hate (with a passion) ones that talk bull.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

When I was in high school I was the kid that didn't drink or smoke weed, was not athletic, was very shy around girls, was in the chess club, liked _Star Wars_, and classical music. That was in the 1980s, so I guess I was what you'd call a nerd. Back then I guess it alienated me from others to an extent; but if I was a teenager now, in the 2000s, maybe not so much, because now it's sort of "cool" to be a nerd, or that's what my teenage son, who likes chess, calculus class, and _Star Wars_ tells me, anyway.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

Coach G said:


> When I was in high school I was the kid that didn't drink or smoke weed, was not athletic, was very shy around girls, was in the chess club, liked _Star Wars_, and classical music. That was in the 1980s, so I guess I was what you'd call a nerd. Back then I guess it alienated me from others to an extent; but if I was a teenager now, in the 2000s, may be not so much, because now it's sort of "cool" to be a nerd, or that's what my teenage son, who likes chess, calculus class, and _Star Wars_ tells me, anyway.


I went to high school in the 70's, and I was really the odd one out.

I was part of the coolest group you could possibly be in, in Southern California in the 70's. The surfers, stoner group (although I hardly ever got stoned in those days). But I also got good grades in the sciences and math. But I was also part of an intellectual group, where the topics tended toward philosophy.

Even back then, my tastes in music and art was well outside the norm: avantgarde progressive music, jazz fusion, free jazz, progressive jazz, post bop, and some years after high school, serial, avantgarde, 12 tone, atonal, 2nd Viennese school, classical music were added to the mix.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

I always listened to music just on my own, but I like more genres than only classical. Also I'm kind of unaware of what people think so I never felt different because of the music I like. Maybe that's a consequence of listening to classical, heavy metal and Zappa  Hey, what if I'm a weirdo?


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

mbhaub said:


> Being a classical listener can indeed be a lonely venture. I know hundreds of musicians, and even among them I'm the oddball. Some of them don't ever listen to classical, own a classical cd, or go to concerts - they play in an orchestra and play the music, but outside of that they are attuned to pop/rock/jazz. I know only one other person who is as addicted to buying cds, scores, and books as I am. When I was kid in high school, friends would get together and listen to some new album, say Rolling Stones. It meant nothing to me and I would go do other, more important thing, like listen to Beethoven. I have never been one to give in to peer pressure. Now as Medicare kicks in, I have even less tolerance for rock than when I was a kid. Life is too short to waste on junk music - or movies, books and booze for that matter. If my love of classical alienates people that's their problem. There's still some pent up frustration at parents and teachers I harbor for their non-understanding and rude things they said that I probably need to see a shrink about.* But I've moved past it all and now, the weather is nice, I can put the top down on the roadster put on Wagner, Puccini, Beethoven and company, turn the volume way up and let people stare at me. I couldn't care less what they think.*


Oh man, how I dream about being able to do that! I have only owned one convertible (1963 Chevrolet Nova SS with three-on-the-tree) and that was long ago. So many times I pull up next to some idiot blasting his garbage music, bass thumping. How I would love to be able to put my top down and blast something like the Toccata from Monteverdi's _L'Orfeo_ or first movement of Beethoven's 8th right back at them!


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

BachIsBest said:


> Try being a 21-year-old non-drinker at a gathering of adults...


I have been a non-drinker and non-drug user all my life (I will be 69 in a few months.) I started college in 1970 and at that time I grew my hair VERY long. I would love to be at parties and drink root beer or even sometimes milk. And when joints were passed around to me I would just take it and pass it on. The reactions I got were priceless...here is this guy with hair half way down his back drinking soda and not smoking dope.

BachIsBest, turn down those drink offers proudly!


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Rather than feel alienated by my love of CM I feel that others will often say they like CM too (sometimes to appear 'sophisticated', I suppose). However, after 2 minutes of discussion, it nearly always transpires that they don't like CM but may enjoy a few Classical Experience-type titbits of classical music or a 1 minute snippet from an advert. I have never met one single person in my normal, everyday life who is as enthusiastic as me about the music I love, hence I rarely discuss it with others. My closest friends and work colleagues know I love CM but it's not a topic we discuss, as they aren't interested. I come here for my fix instead with people who are equally or far more knowledgeable than me about this type of music. I'm not being snotty or elitist about that but I've met so many people over the years who 'say' they like CM then follow it up with "My favourite is Pachelbel's Canon'. That's the point the conversation invariably ends.


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## neofite (Feb 19, 2017)

ArtMusic said:


> Classical music appeals to a smaller group from a general population perspective compared to other major genres. But there is...


What are these _other major genres_? The only one I can think of is popular music.


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## Geoff48 (Aug 15, 2020)

When I was far younger, a school kid even, I was the only one of my circle who liked classical music. In the swinging sixties it was not normal. Then the School I attended started selling tickets behind the orchestra at Saturday night concerts for a shilling (now 5p). A few of us went and became good mates. And although the seats were designed by the Spanish Inquisition it was great watching the conductor. And we were young.
Now I still go to the occasional Saturday night concert, not behind the Orchestra unfortunately, age and arthritis put paid to that or did before the pandemic and lockdown.
I have a good neighbour and friend who is of Asian background. At no time was he exposed to classical music or so called culture. But to humour me he recently came to a concert. The programme was Russian, Prokoviev’s Classical, Tchaikovsky’s 2nd Concerto and the Pathetique. And he really enjoyed it. We’ve been to two more concerts since and he enjoyed both particularly Rachmaninov’s 2nd Concerto and the Pastoral Symphony. And William Tell which he recognised and the Lark ascending. I guess the point I am trying to make is that the main problem is that people are scared of classical music which they see as elistist. It probably doesn’t help that Orchestras tend to wear formal suits. But when they attend without prejudice they can enjoy it. Incidentally he now listened to classic fm on a regular basis.
We’ve also enjoyed Gilbert and Sullivan, Kiss me Kate, cavalleria Rusticana, some Shakespeare at the local playhouse. And it is he who is really looking forward to continuing our explorations once we are able to do so.
So maybe the problem is the lack of unprejudiced exposure.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

Geoff48 said:


> When I was far younger, a school kid even, I was the only one of my circle who liked classical music. In the swinging sixties it was not normal. Then the School I attended started selling tickets behind the orchestra at Saturday night concerts for a shilling (now 5p). A few of us went and became good mates. And although the seats were designed by the Spanish Inquisition it was great watching the conductor. And we were young.
> Now I still go to the occasional Saturday night concert, not behind the Orchestra unfortunately, age and arthritis put paid to that or did before the pandemic and lockdown.
> I have a good neighbour and friend who is of Asian background. At no time was he exposed to classical music or so called culture. But to humour me he recently came to a concert. The programme was Russian, Prokoviev's Classical, Tchaikovsky's 2nd Concerto and the Pathetique. And he really enjoyed it. We've been to two more concerts since and he enjoyed both particularly Rachmaninov's 2nd Concerto and the Pastoral Symphony. And William Tell which he recognised and the Lark ascending. I guess the point I am trying to make is that the main problem is that people are scared of classical music which they see as elistist. It probably doesn't help that Orchestras tend to wear formal suits. But when they attend without prejudice they can enjoy it. Incidentally he now listened to classic fm on a regular basis.
> We've also enjoyed Gilbert and Sullivan, Kiss me Kate, cavalleria Rusticana, some Shakespeare at the local playhouse. And it is he who is really looking forward to continuing our explorations once we are able to do so.
> So maybe the problem is the lack of unprejudiced exposure.


So maybe the question is not so much how classical music has alienated us who are it's devotees, but how classical music itself has alienated those who feel mystified by it. Though classical music is actually more populist than ever; once the music of the church, then the nobility, and later academia, it is now more accessible to all who may wish to seek and find it. Even so, the air of some snootiness remains. Classical music is still taught as musical _appreciation_ and not musical _enjoyment_; more to be _admired_ rather than _loved_.

PS

I'm sure that your friend's new interest in classical music was inspired not because you taught him how to _appreciate_ or _admire_ it; but because you taught him, probably by your example, how to _enjoy_ and _love_ it.

Score one for the good guys!


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Having thought this over, I am sure that I'm quite capable of alienating people without the help of classical music.


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

Geoff48 said:


> When I was far younger, a school kid even, I was the only one of my circle who liked classical music. In the swinging sixties it was not normal. Then the School I attended started selling tickets behind the orchestra at Saturday night concerts for a shilling (now 5p). A few of us went and became good mates. And although the seats were designed by the Spanish Inquisition it was great watching the conductor. And we were young.
> Now I still go to the occasional Saturday night concert, not behind the Orchestra unfortunately, age and arthritis put paid to that or did before the pandemic and lockdown.
> I have a good neighbour and friend who is of Asian background. At no time was he exposed to classical music or so called culture. But to humour me he recently came to a concert. The programme was Russian, Prokoviev's Classical, Tchaikovsky's 2nd Concerto and the Pathetique. And he really enjoyed it. We've been to two more concerts since and he enjoyed both particularly Rachmaninov's 2nd Concerto and the Pastoral Symphony. And William Tell which he recognised and the Lark ascending. I guess the point I am trying to make is that the main problem is that people are scared of classical music which they see as elistist. It probably doesn't help that Orchestras tend to wear formal suits. But when they attend without prejudice they can enjoy it. Incidentally he now listened to classic fm on a regular basis.
> We've also enjoyed Gilbert and Sullivan, Kiss me Kate, cavalleria Rusticana, some Shakespeare at the local playhouse. And it is he who is really looking forward to continuing our explorations once we are able to do so.
> *So maybe the problem is the lack of unprejudiced exposure.*


You can expose classical music in the most non-elitist, unprejudiced, politically correct ways to X number of people who know little or nothing about it, from all classes, walks of life, educational backgrounds, levels of intelligence, etc., etc., etc.,...and what it will come down to is that 90% of them (at least) will not like it...just because it does not connect with them and vice versa...they simply will not like, PERIOD. That is how it has always been, is now, and will always be.

For the last half century the classical music industry has tried numerous gimmicks to build audiences and they haven't worked because, in the end, aside from the gimmicks, a potential new classical music fan has to actually LISTEN TO THE MUSIC. And casually dressed musicians, a less formal performance atmosphere, the freedom to clap between movements, etc. does not relieve them of the responsibility (and for many, the arduous task) of sitting still for 5, 10, 20, 40 minutes and JUST LISTENING...not to mention understanding what they are listening to.

Sad to say, classical music is not for everyone...in fact, it is for a small, very small segment of society. I wish it were otherwise but that is the reality.

That said, I am glad your friend has joined us!


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Classical music alienates people? Good.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

I got lucky. My two best friends in high school and several in college were also CM fans then and still are now. We would introduce one another to pieces one of us had heard for the first time and gotten the LP (it was the LP era). Our high school also had a good music and music appreciation teacher who was dedicated to CM. But I also loved Rock, Tin Pan Alley, and Doo-***, and cante flamenco, as did one of my friends.


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## Pyotr (Feb 26, 2013)

There was someone who posted this here several years ago. When he first went on a particular dating site he listed classical as his favorite music, however he didn't get many responses. He subsequently didn't list that on other dating sites he joined and had better luck.


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## Andrew Kenneth (Feb 17, 2018)

Pyotr said:


> There was someone who posted this here several years ago. When he first went on a particular dating site he listed classical as his favorite music, however he didn't get many responses. He subsequently didn't list that on other dating sites he joined and had better luck.


A couple of years ago a female co-worker of mine decided to join a dating site. At work she showed us her on-line dating profile. And, since she is an amateur baroque flutist, she mentioned liking Bach's "Actus Tragicus" in her profile, among other things.
She was totally earnest; but unaware this could be dating poison.

To make a long story short, I took it on me to edit her profile (with the help of two other co-workers). I also invited her home to take some dating-profile-pics of her in front of my marble fireplace. After this profile-makeover she hit it of with the first guy who responded. (and now they're married).

Later, to thank me for my efforts, my wife & I were treated to a Gubaidulina concert in their company.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Pyotr said:


> There was someone who posted this here several years ago. When he first went on a particular dating site he listed classical as his favorite music, however he didn't get many responses. He subsequently didn't list that on other dating sites he joined and had better luck.





Andrew Kenneth said:


> A couple of years ago a female co-worker of mine decided to join a dating site. At work she showed us her on-line dating profile. And, since she is an amateur baroque flutist, she mentioned liking Bach's "Actus Tragicus" in her profile, among other things.
> She was totally earnest; but unaware this could be dating poison.
> 
> To make a long story short, I took it on me to edit her profile (with the help of two other co-workers). I also invited her home to take some dating-profile-pics of her in front of my marble fireplace. After this profile-makeover she hit it of with the first guy who responded. (and now they're married).
> ...


Interesting stories. But I'm thinking shouldn't you be yourself? I used to find it a bit of a turn-off when a prospect would say "I like all kinds of music" as in nothing in particular with a passion. Also when I tested it out, turns out they don't really know any artists from "all kinds of music"


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

I took the woman who is now my wife to the Chicago Symphony Orchestra on our second date. We sat in the last row of the top level (due to poorness, but were moved down after the first piece to empty seats) and I honestly couldn't tell you what we heard (it was a long time ago now and I was more concerned with... other things, shall we say). She still isn't as into CM as I am, but we have gone to a few dozen concerts since (indoor and outdoor) and she is happy to listen over dinner.

I think the main issue here is openness to experience. A mate needn't love every single thing that you do. But if things are to work you're going to both need to be willing to try something that the other is passionate about.

So I would say CM doesn't alienate people so much as usefully screen them for compatibility


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## erki (Feb 17, 2020)

I grew up in Estonia. While classical was more or less "soviet state" accepted music style we had very good composers of our own - Tubin, Tormis, Pärt, Kapp family as our national pride. So for us classical music was kind of expression of our own anti-soviet sentiment and was well accepted/regarded music style throughout the society.
I had many artist friends in former East Germany. When they got together they used to make music. Some guys had a piano at home so they gathered bringing violins, guitars, oboes, flutes and played Bach, Mozart or improvised. It was amazing experience.
To think about I haven't experienced any alienation because I listen classical. Maybe I have been lucky to be free to like any music I like.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

MatthewWeflen said:


> I took the woman who is now my wife to the Chicago Symphony Orchestra on our second date. We sat in the last row of the top level (due to poorness, but were moved down after the first piece to empty seats) and I honestly couldn't tell you what we heard (it was a long time ago now and I was more concerned with... other things, shall we say). She still isn't as into CM as I am, but we have gone to a few dozen concerts since (indoor and outdoor) and she is happy to listen over dinner.
> 
> I think the main issue here is openness to experience. A mate needn't love every single thing that you do. But if things are to work you're going to both need to be willing to try something that the other is passionate about.
> 
> So I would say CM doesn't alienate people so much as usefully screen them for compatibility


Generally, it is a myth that "opposites attract" when it comes to friendships and especially in finding a spouse, and people tend to choose people much like themselves to be their friends. With romance, opposites may attract in the short term but for different reasons will almost never work out in the long term. Couples really need to share common values, and even some political and religious values; especially if they plan to bring children into the relationship at some point. It doesn't mean that two people who love each other have to share the same religion but there should be a consensus as to how differences in religious beliefs will be handled within the relationship; especially as to how the kids will be raised, in one religion or the other, in both, and whether or not they will be provided the opportunity to choose at some point.

Taste in music, I think is further down the list when it comes to common denominators that are necessary to make a friendship or marriage work; and a little disagreement in musical tastes (or differences in taste of movies or books) can actually make a friendship MORE interesting because it allows for an exposure to another point of view and creates a point of lively discussion. With me, it's classical music, number one and always; followed by jazz which was very much a part of my college years (my pronounced "jazz stage"), and now in middle age, for some reason I'm gravitating somewhat to country music. A lot of people think that because my name and physical characteristics give away my Latin-American heritage that I should like Merengue, Salsa, or Mariachi, but it's not my forte unless you want to count a portion of "Latin Jazz". And people who meet me are often surprised that a Mexican/Italian American guy like me places a bunch of old Germans such as Bach, Beethoven and Brahms at the top of his list of "greatest hits".

My wife, on the other hand, who is also Latin American, likes Latin Pop and Mexican Mariachi music, and also some country music which actually has a similar rhythm to it as Latin Pop. So with the exception of country music there is rarely a meeting of the minds between my wife and myself when it comes to music.

That being said, there's also something in psychology called "social learning" (see the research of Albert Bandura); and this is the idea that we quite naturally adopt the behaviors and even the attitudes of others through exposure, even when a reward is not present. So now after more than 20 years of marriage my wife can sit through a concert of classical music and sometimes enjoy the experience, as long as it's Baroque or Classical which is easier for her to follow than something "heavy" like a monster symphony by the likes of Mahler or Shostakovich. And, as for me, I can go to a Latin Pop concert and also enjoy the experience to a certain extent, and with my wife I've seen all the great Latin Pop stars in concert such as Vincente Fernandez, Julio Iglesias, Ana Gabriel, etc.


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

Pyotr said:


> There was someone who posted this here several years ago. When he first went on a particular dating site he listed classical as his favorite music, however he didn't get many responses. He subsequently didn't list that on other dating sites he joined and had better luck.





Andrew Kenneth said:


> A couple of years ago a female co-worker of mine decided to join a dating site. At work she showed us her on-line dating profile. And, since she is an amateur baroque flutist, she mentioned liking Bach's "Actus Tragicus" in her profile, among other things.
> She was totally earnest; but unaware this could be dating poison.
> 
> To make a long story short, I took it on me to edit her profile (with the help of two other co-workers). I also invited her home to take some dating-profile-pics of her in front of my marble fireplace. After this profile-makeover she hit it of with the first guy who responded. (and now they're married).
> ...


There are two schools of thought when it comes to dating site profiles and revealing things about oneself, such as a love of classical music, or other non-mainstream tastes, that might reduce their number of responses. The first is to play down or even not reveal such things so as to make oneself seem less elitist, i.e., more like regular folk. The other is to show your full hand and let the chips fall where they may.

My choice has always been the second approach. In fact, I am very upfront and 'in-their-face' about my appreciation of classical music and all the fine and performing arts. The only reference to popular culture in my profile was my love of Mystery Science Theater 3000.

I showed my profile to female friends and was told it was too intimidating. My intention was not to intimidate but to show, upfront, who I am. If I toned down things, they would find out eventually anyway. That said, I had a pretty good number of responses and dates.

With some I dated, the problem, musically speaking, was not that they didn't like classical but that I had no interest in hearing any live non-classical music.


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