# Listening vs. watching opera



## Herkku (Apr 18, 2010)

Has the appearance of opera on DVD changed your listening habits of it on CD or MP3 etc.? I have to admit that I feel a bit uncomfortable walking in the streets with my iPod, fearing of Birgit Nilsson hitting her high C just as I am driven over by a car. Even at home I like to watch opera on DVD, and listen to CD:s while I'm doing something that prevents watching, like writing these messages, cooking, doing the laundry and so on. Unfortunately this means that I don't sit down with the libretto of a new opera and concentrate. After all, everything has not been published on DVD yet, as we all know, and there are still better recordings on CD of operas that are available on DVD. Then there are performances that we enjoy on both media. How about you?


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Again?


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

It's been extensively discussed in two threads, Herkku.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

I think Herkku is asking whether our habits have changed with the easy availability of Opera on DVD.

After all, in the eighties when I started to get interest in opera there were two options: listen, or go to a live performance. If you had a walkman you had to laboriously transfer your CDs to tape, and then lug all the tapes with you to listen on the go. I had a few precious videos but nothing like the plethora of DVDs now.

Now I can very easily and conveniently listen when walking, driving or even working (using my work computer), and watch while cooking, ironing (using my laptop) or surfing the net. I watch at least as much as I listen now and hardly ever listen with the libretto any longer.

(As for being run over I always remove my earphones when crossing the street. I want to stay alive to work my way through my UWP.)


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

I don't tend to watch opera DVD's anymore. The images tend to distract me from the music, and the subtitles tend to distract me from the images. At present I'd just as soon leave it as the libretto distracting me directly from the music.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> I think Herkku is asking whether our habits have changed with the easy availability of Opera on DVD.
> 
> After all, in the eighties when I started to get interest in opera there were two options: listen, or go to a live performance. If you had a walkman you had to laboriously transfer your CDs to tape, and then lug all the tapes with you to listen on the go. I had a few precious videos but nothing like the plethora of DVDs now.
> 
> ...


OK, fair enough, so I'll answer.

As I said before, I am a visually-oriented opera fan like my sig indicates, and was never in the habit of just listening to recordings anyway. Before, I used to watch live performances quite a lot when I lived in New York City, at both main houses and some secondary venues. Then when I moved away I started to drive up to two hours to regional opera houses in my new state. Then the DVD craze started, and now I rarely travel exclusively for opera (still do; a few months ago I went to Charlotte to see Otello, and as you know, in October I went to NYC for Don Pasquale and Boris Godunov). Either I see the live performances by my local company, or go rarely back to New York City, or watch on DVD, blu-ray, Naxos library, Met in HD, and now MetPlayer.

Basically I listen to operas that are not visually available (like recently I bought CD copies of Il Templario, Flotow's Martha, Enescu's Oedipe, and others). In terms of listening on the go, it's basically highlights, compilations, and isolated numbers. I do have several hours of opera on my iPod and several complete ones on my iTunes, but I basically use the complete ones to transfer certain segments to my iPod; I don't think I've ever listened to a full opera on my iPod. I also have MetOpera by satellite radio on my car, and listen to it a lot during commutes or trips. But at home, it's always visual if a DVD/blu-ray/streaming is available.


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## Herkku (Apr 18, 2010)

Sorry, if I missed the earlier discussions. We have a couple of surgeons at work, who like to listen to music of their own choice while operating. So far, their taste in music has been very different from mine...


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## classidaho (May 5, 2009)

I tend to absolutely love most arias and have little taste for recitative, and forgive me, silly or morbid plots. In other words I am in it, mostly, because of the music. I really do like visuals of the singer, tho, hence my limited desire for videos (I only own VHS copies).

 Oh hell, I'll vote for audio only. Most of my opera matter is on vinyl anyway.


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## classidaho (May 5, 2009)

Ouch! When I read the ? I didn't even consider 'watching live' which is by far my favorite! I love listening with an opera crowd and truly enjoy their appreciation and in turn the appreciation of the performers. Bravo! Brava!


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Herkku said:


> ... We have a couple of surgeons at work, who like to listen to music of their own choice while operating ...


 Yikes I hope their listening doesn't distract them & they remember the difference between the scapula and the tibia.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

sospiro said:


> Yikes I hope their listening doesn't distract them & they remember the difference between the scapula and the tibia.


And I hope they don't leave behind their iPods inside the patient!


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

In answer to Herkku's question, my habits have definitely changed.

I was content with my CD collection & used to listen with the libretto or on my mp3 player. I had a few DVDs but not many. Once I realised just how many operas were available on DVD I started exploring different ones and getting ones, for some reason, I would hesitate to get on CD.


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## Ralfy (Jul 19, 2010)

Operas are obviously meant to be seen since they appeared long before video and audio recording were invented. In which case, one should consider listening only to the music as the major shift.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Ralfy said:


> Operas are obviously meant to be seen since they appeared long before video and audio recording were invented. In which case, one should consider listening only to the music as the major shift.


Yep, obvious point that I'm quite amazed nobody had proposed before! Now that you have said it, it makes a lot of sense! :tiphat:

So what is going on is that the new media are finally catching up and reverting the "damage" (if we can call it like this) done by the audio-only media to the completeness of the artform.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

I've been watching more operas on DVD/visual medium because of increasing availability. I still continue to buy CD recordings of operas, especially if performed by favourite performers and that there are no DVD/visual alternatives available. In other words, just because if a particular opera isn't yet available on DVD, doesn't mean I will never ever listen to it.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> I've been watching more operas on DVD/visual medium because of increasing availability. I still continue to buy CD recordings of operas, especially if performed by favourite performers and that there are no DVD/visual alternatives available. In other words, just because if a particular opera isn't yet available on DVD, doesn't mean I will never ever listen to it.


I'm usually highly distressed when an opera I'm very interested in doesn't have a DVD version.

Yes, I do buy CD recordings *after* I've seen an opera either live, or on DVD/blu-ray, or on streaming sites. But if I can't have the initial visual image, I'm not happy.

Those that are absolutely not available I try to get from non-commercial DVDs (Premiere Opera, House of Opera) and if it is definitely impossible, *then* I'll buy the CD recording with the libretto and try to use my imagination.

But for me, opera is definitely a visual artform; it's musical theater with acting, scenarios, props, costumes, and all. When I can't have it all, I feel robbed of the "complete work of art" aspect of it.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Do you attach less value to the emotional merits of the music than its visual? Let's say there is one version of a particular opera performed by group A available on CD only, while another version of the same opera performed by group B available on blu-ray, and that most folks/critiques give high praise to the former while the latter doesn't seem to earn much praise. This is not as hypothetical as it may seem. I have encountered this many times and I usually get the CD version first.

Also, another thing that I find is that there is a much higher consistency in performers' quality (whether CD or visual medium), than there is on the stage/the modern stage director. For example, nearly all of Handel's HIP operas that I have on CD and DVD are well performed as far as the singers and orchestras are concerned, though unfortunately I certainly cannot say the same regarding all the DVD's _stage production_. As we know, the orchestral pit's and singers' direction under the conductor's baton are almost always disjoint from the modern stage director.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Do you attach less value to the emotional merits of the music than its visual? Let's say there is one version of a particular opera performed by group A available on CD only, while another version of the same opera performed by group B available on blu-ray, and that most folks/critiques give high praise to the former while the latter doesn't seem to earn much praise. This is not as hypothetical as it may seem. I have encountered this many times and I usually get the CD version first.
> 
> Also, another thing that I find is that there is a much higher consistency in performers' quality (whether CD or visual medium), than there is on the stage/the modern stage director. For example, nearly all of Handel's HIP operas that I have on CD and DVD are well performed as far as the singers and orchestras are concerned, though unfortunately I certainly cannot say the same regarding all the DVD's _stage production_. As we know, the orchestral pit's and singers' direction under the conductor's baton are almost always disjoint from the modern stage director.


Good points, and I do attach more value to the music. But please understand me, I'm talking about my *first* approach. I need my visual fix. I need to assess the opera's theatrical possibilities. Then once I'm done with this, I do seek out the best recorded versions and I enjoy these operas as performed by top singers and top conductors/orchestras - I mean, when I can. Getting access to both visual and audio media can get pretty expensive.

And yes, I'd say that *as a rule* the available DVD versions are generally inferior to the choice recordings available for a given opera. And regietheater drives me as crazy as the next guy.

And no, I won't buy a DVD when all reviews and learned opinions indicate that it is some crazy regietheater-driven production with mediocre singing and distorted concept, while a formidable CD version is available. A recent example was the fact that I refused to buy either one of the two available (and dreadful) DVDs of _I Capuleti e i Montecchi_, and preferred a very good CD recording with Vesselina Kasarova and Eva Mei. Coincidentally, later I found a spectacular non-commercial version with an amateur single camera recording of an Opéra Bastille performance with - guess who? Anna Netrebko!

So, it's always nicer to have the full gamut of artistic elements that an opera can provide.

But sure, if there isn't any acceptable version in visual media, I'll go with the CD.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> I'm usually highly distressed when an opera I'm very interested in doesn't have a DVD version.
> 
> Yes, I do buy CD recordings *after* I've seen an opera either live, or on DVD/blu-ray, or on streaming sites. But if I can't have the initial visual image, I'm not happy.


Usually I do the opposite. Learning the music before I watch makes the experience much more enjoyable for me.



Almaviva said:


> Those that are absolutely not available I try to get from non-commercial DVDs (Premiere Opera, House of Opera) and if it is definitely impossible, *then* I'll buy the CD recording with the libretto and try to use my imagination.


If I find a store with hundreds of DVDs (like in Munich) I browse the shelves & sometimes find stuff I'd never heard of & love to get something as a souvenir. Beats a keyring any day.



Almaviva said:


> But for me, opera is definitely a visual artform; it's musical theater with acting, scenarios, props, costumes, and all. When I can't have it all, I feel robbed of the "complete work of art" aspect of it.


Definitely but listening on my mp3 player gives me my required daily fix of opera.


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## BalloinMaschera (Apr 4, 2011)

typically I prefer listening to watching at home, that way you can really concentrate on the vocals and the orchestration- I do so in the dark... I can always visualize the "theatre" part in my mind, if necessary... if I want to see something staged, I'd rather go to the opera in person... I hope that doesn't seem creepy!


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

BalloinMaschera said:


> typically I prefer listening to watching at home, that way you can really concentrate on the vocals and the orchestration- I do so in the dark... I can always visualize the "theatre" part in my mind, if necessary... if I want to see something staged, I'd rather go to the opera in person... I hope that doesn't seem creepy!


Going to the opera house in person, creepy? I'd rather call it a pleasure and a privilege. Unfortunately my local opera company has only some 4 performances per year. I try to compensate for it with some traveling, and with Met in HD.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

I used to listen a lot back then when I had no internet and spent most of my time in the library. I'd totally sit down and listen to a full Wagner, which meant 10-12 turns (this was when CD was still rare). "Librarian, plz turn my disc, kthxbai" in every 30 minutes. The horror! 
Those were the times. 
And to think we DID have the Ring, but each piece was from a different recording.


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## haydnfan (Apr 13, 2011)

I prefer watching on blu-ray, I need to see it to get it, the story, the acting, the costumes, the background are just as important as the music to me. And I'm not an opera fan, every few months I sit down and watch an opera on blu-ray.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

I'm here to report, without pride, without embarrassment and certainly without regret, that I have yet to FULLY embrace the Opera on DVD medium.

Having said that, I think most everyone inclined to post here is in agreement with *classidaho* that live-staged Opera is the optimal way to experience the art-form. And even though I still have a pretty threadbare Opera on DVD collection, I'm an enthusiastic paying customer for several MET in HD theatre-casts. Must by something about the "life-sized" experience that appeals to me.

I guess we're all creatures of our previous habits, to an extent. Someone who grew up witnessing live Opera would come to expect that visual component- and likely settle on the visual medium as the closest home simulation. Also, someone who's a robust collector of home video in other departments (e.g.: movies) would figure to adjust quickly to Opera presented that way.

My earliest experiences with Opera were quite different. A trip to the Lyric Opera of Chicago was a very rare event. My mother had the 'Milton Cross Stories of the Great Operas' at home- so I became familiar with many plots before I even had the chance to hear the music. When I _did_ hear the music, it was either via Texaco-sponsored MET radio broadcasts, or from cassettes acquired through inter-library loan. [The working-class city where I grew up didn't have much in the way of 'in-stock' Opera recordings.] What can I say? I got used to absorbing it in that manner- and it remains comfortable for me today. Not long after I graduated college, two things happened- 1) the CD medium became commonly available, and 2) 'Regie' productions began ascending to their current primacy.

For anyone who didn't grow up with vinyl and cassettes, it's hard to relay the excitement felt by the availability of those first CDs. Herbert von Karajan famously said "all else is gaslight." The leap really did seem Edisonian in nature. And what a way to collect opera it was, too. Why, you could effortlessly hold three or four Operas, with liner notes and libretti, in ONE hand!! Try doing THAT with the _Ring_ on LP! I rationalized that it played right into my tastes. I already knew a number of opera stories well enough to not be a complete slave to the libretto. Additionally, I could imagine a Rackham-esque backdrop to Wagner, instead of being force-fed a depiction of (for instance) a post-nuclear fallout zone. It's a win-win, I thought. These days, I'm more patient with these 'alternate visions.' However, several decades of familiarity with the Opera stories as literally described has made me a little more set-in-my-ways.

Two other facets come into play when considering whether I wish to get fully on-board with the DVD bandwagon. First, as other posters have expressed, it can't help but diminish focus on the music. However (paradoxical as it may sound) a coherent visual image on DVD makes me a little more forgiving of the musical shortcomings. As an example, I've heard so much negative comment on Hildegard Behrens Brünnhilde over the years. Regardless, I roll with it because there's one Brünnhilde who (if I can be forgiven the sexist-sounding comment) looks like she has a chance of passing the "crackers" test. Still, I'd rather HEAR Flagstad, Varnay or Nilsson than SEE and HEAR Behrens, or Polaski, or Eaglen. Secondly, there's the (to my mind, not entirely irrational) fear that if I get started collecting DVD, the acquisitions will add up so quickly that it'll make a mark on the remainder of my finances. So- for the forseeable future, I'm going to step VERY cautiously, when it comes to Opera on DVD purchases.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> I've been watching more operas on DVD/visual medium because of increasing availability. I still continue to buy CD recordings of operas, especially if performed by favourite performers and that there are no DVD/visual alternatives available. In other words, just because if a particular opera isn't yet available on DVD, doesn't mean I will never ever listen to it.


This is generally true for me, as well.

However, I can't listen to opera while I'm engaged in other activities. When I try (such as during Met broadcasts), I invariably stop whatever else I'm doing and just focus on the opera. I don't know if the music is that absorbing or if I just have the proverbial one-track mind!


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

While I respect everyone's preference, I personally don't agree with the idea that the visual parts of an opera distract from the music. They do, if you consider that the music is all, but I don't consider it this way. I think opera is also visual art-form since the beginning of its history and still today, so I consider that the visual aspect is a fully integrated part of it therefore it can't be said that it distracts from the music. If so, we'd have to say that the music distracts from the visual aspect as well. I'm saying visual but what I mean is obviously the entire looks/acting/costume/scenario/props whole, not visual art in the sense of painting. I should better say theatrical art. It would be weird to say of a staged play that the acting distracts from the lines being said by the actors - if that's the case then the person should just buy the book, and I don't think theater-going audiences worldwide fail to realize that it is much more insteresting to go watch a play rather than just read the book. What I mean is that these components of a theatrical art-form can't be separated without significant losses. Sure, some poorly staged operas by incompetent or weird stage directors can be detrimental, but this is a problem with how well or how poorly it is staged, not with the work itself or the art-form itself. Just like some operas are staged in awful ways, some others (or the same operas) can be staged in wonderful ways. Given that the only possibility of seeing a fair approximation of the whole experience at home is through DVDs and blu-rays, I do prioritize these media when I'm consuming opera at home. Of course, I'd rather see it live at the opera house, but few can have access to the variety of operas available on DVD and blu-ray if only live presentations are preferred. Maybe the lucky people who live close to the Mariinsky theater and its 60 different operas per season or those who live in Berlin or Vienna where the opera companies combined get close to or above these numbers can do it (if they can afford the multiple tickets), but unfortunately it is not my case and therefore I cherish the visual media, which have allowed me to get to know the visual (theatrical) side of some 200 operas that I wouldn't have had the opportunity to see in an opera house. These days, most opera houses dare very rarely to present off-the-beaten-path operas due to the economic crisis and the need to fill those seats. Rather than watching over and over the same ABC (Aida, Butterfly, Carmen), DVD and blu-ray are the way to go. Also, I can go to an opera house and be amazed at a live performance, but then, I'll just have my memories of it and I won't be able to share it with others, see it again and again, etc, unless I buy a DVD of it. Another advantage of DVDs is that now we can discuss the same performance with people around the world. I look forward to my planned trip to London to meet my dear friends mamascarlatti and sospiro to watch Les Troyens together at Covent Garden, and we'll be able to then talk about our views on the performance to our hearts' satisfaction. But how many times are we able to do something like this? On the other hand, I can exchange views with them here at Talk Classical about literally hundreds of DVDs that we can all watch in our respective homes. This is a very welcome perk of present technology that opera lovers of previous generations didn't have. So, long life to visual media!!!


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

I have a Minotaur Blu-ray waiting for me. *sigh* It has at least 3 singers I love, a protagonist who in my opinion needs a hug, plus the music is surely exciting - never heard an opera so new!

Now if I only could bring myself to sit down and watch a 2+ hour opera instead of struggling with writer's block, spending my time on TvTropes page, RPing or randomly surfing forums.

Same goes for that modern staged WTF Messiah... waiting. Waiting. But it has a wonderful bass, must watch sometime.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Chi_townPhilly said:


> I'm here to report, without pride, without embarrassment and certainly without regret, that I have yet to FULLY embrace the Opera on DVD medium.
> 
> Having said that, I think most everyone inclined to post here is in agreement with *classidaho* that live-staged Opera is the optimal way to experience the art-form. And even though I still have a pretty threadbare Opera on DVD collection, I'm an enthusiastic paying customer for several MET in HD theatre-casts. Must by something about the "life-sized" experience that appeals to me.
> 
> ...


Very interesting to read about your early experiences with opera and how you absorbed it almost subconsciously. Knowing the story before you went to see a performance must have helped tremendously in the days before sur-titles.

It's been a staggering progression from LPs to CDs/downloading/mp3 players & for me listening on ear-phones as I do my daily slog has increased my knowledge & pleasure immeasurably.



Chi_townPhilly said:


> Secondly, there's the (to my mind, not entirely irrational) fear that if I get started collecting DVD, the acquisitions will add up so quickly that it'll make a mark on the remainder of my finances. So- for the foreseeable future, I'm going to step VERY cautiously, when it comes to Opera on DVD purchases.


You're very wise. It can get a bit out of hand. :lol:


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Sieglinde said:


> I have a Minotaur Blu-ray waiting for me. *sigh* It has at least 3 singers I love, a protagonist who in my opinion needs a hug, plus the music is surely exciting - never heard an opera so new!
> 
> Now if I only could bring myself to sit down and watch a 2+ hour opera instead of struggling with writer's block, spending my time on TvTropes page, RPing or randomly surfing forums.
> 
> Same goes for that modern staged WTF Messiah... waiting. Waiting. But it has a wonderful bass, must watch sometime.


Wow, I've just read the Amazon.com customer reviews for this The Minotaur blu-ray, and I've ordered it. Seems great. We'll exchange our views once we watch it.

I got another mini-buying spree, and ordered, in addition to the above, the recent releases of Donizetti's Rita, Rossini's Ermione, and Rameau's Zoroastre (the latter, a couple of days ago, should be arriving today with my Prime 2-day delivery membership).


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

Sieglinde said:


> I have a Minotaur Blu-ray waiting for me. *sigh* It has at least 3 singers I love, a protagonist who in my opinion needs a hug, plus the music is surely exciting - never heard an opera so new!
> 
> Now if I only could bring myself to sit down and watch a 2+ hour opera instead of struggling with writer's block, spending my time on TvTropes page, RPing or randomly surfing forums.
> 
> Same goes for that modern staged WTF Messiah... waiting. Waiting. But it has a wonderful bass, must watch sometime.


That Messiah is wonderful! Sure, the storyline is not to anyone's tastes, but I thought it worked remarkably. Also, I have a total crush on Bejun Mehta, so there might be something there as well ...


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Aksel said:


> That Messiah is wonderful! Sure, the storyline is not to anyone's tastes, but I thought it worked remarkably. Also, *I have a total crush on Bejun Mehta*, so there might be something there as well ...


Hands off, I'm sure I got there first.

Have you got his latest CD? It's so beautiful. And he is wonderful in the M22 DVD Mitridate re di Ponte with Richard Croft.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Hands off, I'm sure I got there first.
> 
> Have you got his latest CD? It's so beautiful. And he is wonderful in the M22 DVD Mitridate re di Ponte with Richard Croft.


The Ombra Cara one? Yes. I just got it a few days ago.


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

Another aspect in this feud between listeners and watchers: the length of a DVD vs. the length of a CD. On a CD the maximum is 80 minutes and this implies that an opera will be put (on average) on 2 or 3 CDs, while most operas fit on 1 DVD. The listening span that I got used to for any kind of music is about an hour. Then I long to change for hearing some other kind of music. In the days of vinyl records I didn't like the 30 minutes on one side and was very pleased with the introduction of the CD, also because it harmonises with my 'bio-rhythm' of listening. So after CD1 of Boris Godunov I change for CD2 of Mahler's 3rd and so on. With DVDs I feel like being pushed into something like a straightjacket. I would have to think & plan in advance what part to watch, but I loath thinking & planning: almost without thinking I reach out for this CD or that one. So it's the DVD's format that makes me unhappy


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

TxllxT said:


> Another aspect in this feud between listeners and watchers: the length of a DVD vs. the length of a CD. On a CD the maximum is 80 minutes and this implies that an opera will be put (on average) on 2 or 3 CDs, while most operas fit on 1 DVD. The listening span that I got used to for any kind of music is about an hour. Then I long to change for hearing some other kind of music. In the days of vinyl records I didn't like the 30 minutes on one side and was very pleased with the introduction of the CD, also because it harmonises with my 'bio-rhythm' of listening. So after CD1 of Boris Godunov I change for CD2 of Mahler's 3rd and so on. With DVDs I feel like being pushed into something like a straightjacket. I would have to think & plan in advance what part to watch, but I loath thinking & planning: almost without thinking I reach out for this CD or that one. So it's the DVD's format that makes me unhappy


But Txllxt, most operas have more than one act, which allows you to take a break, go listen to something else, see Act II another day, etc. And most DVD players have memory that allows you to leave a DVD in the player, turn it off, and then turn it on again and hit "resume" so that you restart from the exact same point.


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## Grosse Fugue (Mar 3, 2010)

Also many opera dvds are on two or three dvds, so it only applies to some.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

The story doesn't bother me. I like my opera/oratorio at maximum angst/death level.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

TxllxT said:


> Another aspect in this feud between listeners and watchers...


Oh dear.

I hope not too many people are viewing this as a "feud."

I might be using my "hard case" to make some "bad law," but here are my conjectures:

People whose opera interest is that of an "opera specialist" are more likely to embrace DVD, people who have a more generalized interest in Classical Music are more likely to accept (or tolerate) CDs.

General listeners who absorb opera on DVD are more likely to accept sub-optimal musical performance if this visuals are coherent. "Opera specialists" will tend to be more critical (or discerning) in that regard.

All other things being equal, established consumers who have been collecting Classical Music since the Days of Vinyl are less likely to fully embrace DVD opera (or, for that matter, any of the more recent media such as MP3 and the like).


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

As general stats, I think what you're saying makes sense, CTP, but exceptions exist, of course (which you have fully accounted for when you said "tend to," "less likely to," etc.

Me: I am in certain regards an opera specialist (not in the sense of expertise, mine is modest; but in the sense of a more narrow taste that decisively privileges opera more than other genres of classical music), but I do like and enjoy other genres, such as symphonies, cantatas, lieder, sonatas. Yes, I do accept sub-optimal musical performances on DVD if the visuals are coherent, but this is more valid for my first approach to a work when I insist in having the visual experience, but then later I do migrate to better singing when I can have access to it. In spite of this migration, my position about it is a bit in contradiction with the other idea of opera specialist you have expressed first. Finally, I don't own a single opera vinyl, but I started my classical music journey with vinyls of symphonies and sonatas, and much, much later I grew an interest for opera, when CDs were already in the market.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> As general stats, I think what you're saying makes sense, CTP, but exceptions exist, of course (which you have fully accounted for when you "tend to," "less likely to," etc.
> 
> Me: I am in certain regards an opera specialist (not in the sense of expertise, mine is modest; but in the sense of a more narrow taste that decisively privileges opera more than other genres of classical music), but I do like and enjoy other genres, such as symphonies, cantatas, lieder, sonatas. Yes, I do accept sub-optimal musical performances on DVD if the visuals are coherent, but this is more valid for my first approach to a work when I insist in having the visual experience, but then later I do migrate to better singing when I can have access to it. In spite of this migration, my position about it is a bit in contradiction with the other idea of opera specialist you have expressed first. Finally, I don't own a single opera vinyl, but I started my classical music journey with vinyls of symphonies and sonatas, and much, much later I grew an interest for opera, when CDs were already in the market.


All of this holds true for me too. I get an idea of the plot ands structure from the DVD. If it's good I'll keep rewatching it. If the vocals are sub-par I tend to listen to CDs or look for a DVD with better singing. I rarely read the libretto - if it's in a language I know I set the subtitles to that language, and if not I use the English ones.


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## wirorg (Feb 17, 2016)

This depends much on the representational system (RS). If the visual RS is dominant, you won't get satisfaction from just listening; conversely, if the auditory one is active, you do get satisfaction from listening to the music. Moreover, there's a memory of what you saw earlier, and it becomes associated to the music and therefore, some people change their perception of the music, having watched an opera.
There's a third type of people -- kinesthetic RS, which means they don't care neither about the music, nor about the visual image. They care about "feeling of a feast", catharsis or whatever we may call it.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I love to watch opera and I love to listen to opera. The best listening is when I have watched a particular opera enough (with subtitles) to be so familiar with it that I can pretty much know what the action is while listening.


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## Annied (Apr 27, 2017)

I find it very difficult to sit and watch opera on DVD; the atmosphere that you get when you're actually at a live performance simply isn't there and, for me, it seems flat by comparison. I don't like watching films of Shakespeare plays either for the same reason. (I do know that I'm very susceptible to atmosphere, so I can understand that it may not be so important for others.) I treat DVDs like CDs and have them playing while I do something that doesn't require my full attention.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Related to the original question, DVDs were part of a big change in my appreciation of opera. I liked listening to opera, but it was just a subset of classical music, and it rarely really grabbed me. I lived in Arizona, and did not have a lot of access to seeing the operas I was most interested in, so rarely attended.

Moving to NYC and realizing how many operas I suddenly had a chance to see was the real watershed, but the catalyst and support was realizing that there were increasing more options on DVD, Blu ray, as well as transmissions to movie theaters, and over the internet. I realized I DID have access to opera beyond the warhorses, and subsequently opera took over my listening time. I also watch a lot fewer films and/or TV shows on my own, more often choosing opera instead.

I barely feel I know an opera I have not seen, either live or on video. That doesn't mean I won't listen when I can't watch, of course.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

mountmccabe said:


> Related to the original question, *DVDs were part of a big change in my appreciation of opera*. I liked listening to opera, but it was just a subset of classical music, and it rarely really grabbed me. I lived in Arizona, and did not have a lot of access to seeing the operas I was most interested in, so rarely attended.
> 
> Moving to NYC and realizing how many operas I suddenly had a chance to see was the real watershed, but the catalyst and support was realizing that there were increasing more options on DVD, Blu ray, as well as transmissions to movie theaters, and over the internet. *I realized I DID have access to opera beyond the warhorses**, and subsequently opera took over my listening time*. I also watch a lot fewer films and/or TV shows on my own, more often choosing opera instead.
> 
> *I barely feel I know an opera I have not seen, either live or on video. That doesn't mean I won't listen when I can't watch, of course.*


Pretty much sums up how I feel about it!


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Annied said:


> I treat DVDs like CDs and have them playing while I do something that doesn't require my full attention.


I do this, too. I will almost always answer "would I rather there be music playing now?" with yes. And when listening to opera, I will almost always answer "would I rather there be video, too?" with yes. Even if I can't devote all my attention to it.

Though I will also sit down to watch an opera on DVD (without doing anything else) when I can.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

mountmccabe said:


> I do this, too. I will almost always answer "would I rather there be music playing now?" with yes. And when listening to opera, I will almost always answer "would I rather there be video, too?" with yes. Even if I can't devote all my attention to it.
> 
> *Though I will also sit down to watch an opera on DVD (without doing anything else) when I can.*


Quite a wonderful experience and in some ways (close up shots, replaying a part you missed) it is better than live.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

> I barely feel I know an opera I have not seen, either live or on video. That doesn't mean I won't listen when I can't watch, of course.


This, on the other hand I do have bought : Donizetti: Rosmonda d'lnghilterra on DVD and I am not sure when to start with it, afraid my memory from a good CD recording can be spoiled forever.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Pugg said:


> This, on the other hand I do have bought : Donizetti: Rosmonda d'lnghilterra on DVD and I am not sure when to start with it, afraid my memory from a good CD recording can be spoiled forever.


I only see one. It is with Eva Mei. Expensive even used. Have to check it out on You Tube.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Florestan said:


> I only see one. It is with Eva Mei. Expensive even used. Have to check it out on You Tube.


It was only released this month, so I do think it's takes a while before the price drops.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Pugg said:


> It was only released this month, so I do think it's takes a while before the price drops.


I shall keep it on my list for sure! Thanks for posting it.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Once I found so many great opera performances on-line, I became absorbed in the visuals as well as the sound. The same with watching concerts and seeing the musicians in the act of fully expressing themselves. I enjoy watching the beat of conductors, how people dress, how the audience reacts and the thunderous applause at the finale of a great performance. I consider the visuals as the next best thing to actually being there. Berg's Lulu was one of the first, and I've never forgotton the music, the characters, or the thrust of the story. I run everything through my primary sound system and HDTV as a way of becoming immersed in the entire experience. It's cheaper than a trip and paying the expenses of going to Europe, minus the atmosphere of actually being there.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Larkenfield said:


> Once I found so many great opera performances on-line, I became absorbed in the visuals as well as the sound. The same with watching concerts and seeing the musicians in the act of fully expressing themselves. Berg's Lulu was one of the first I saw and I've never forgotton the music, the characters, the libretto.


Seeing opera it in real is even better, or the Met Broadcast in the cinema suits me also.


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

I haven't been to many live performances of opera. "Handel's Orlando" years ago. Now it's mostly Met opera broadcasts for the full opera experience.

A performance of Wagner's "Reingold" by the Boston Symphony at Tanglewood a few years ago was the most thrilling opera experience ever for me. It was bare bones staging. No scenery or props, subtle clothing hints of the character but not actual costumes. The orchestra visible behind the singers. The singers mostly stood there and sang - gestures but minimal action except for the two giants fighting to the death of one. 

It was great because it was live and beautifully sung. I didn't miss the staging. It was like attending a great concert of one of Schubert's lieder cycles - just a singer and a pianist but they if they are masterful musicians they are enthralling. Just the singers and the music drew me in to the story of "Reingold", no visuals were necessary.

So my answer is, no. I really don't need the visual aspect of opera.

No coincidence I don't much like popular music videos either.


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

Pugg said:


> Seeing opera it in real is even better, or the Met Broadcast in the cinema suits me also.


The Met's productions are overdone in my opinion. They are that way to prove that everything is bigger and better in New York and to employ hundreds.

For instance we didn't need a carnival of freaks in the Cosi Fan Tutte production of a couple of years ago. No offense intended, we just didn't need all those people. Think how much so many extras must raise ticket prices.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

I spent my teen years sitting in the library and listening, multilingual libretto in hand (that's how I picked up a lot of Italian). Nowadays I like watching better.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Open Book said:


> The Met's productions are overdone in my opinion. They are that way to prove that everything is bigger and better in New York and to employ hundreds.
> 
> For instance we didn't need a carnival of freaks in the Cosi Fan Tutte production of a couple of years ago. No offense intended, we just didn't need all those people. Think how much so many extras must raise ticket prices.


I actually enjoyed the Cosi from the Met once the cinema had sorted out the subtitles.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

Open Book said:


> The Met's productions are overdone in my opinion. They are that way to prove that everything is bigger and better in New York and to employ hundreds.
> 
> For instance we didn't need a carnival of freaks in the Cosi Fan Tutte production of a couple of years ago. No offense intended, we just didn't need all those people. Think how much so many extras must raise ticket prices.


But isn't the house also so big the productions have to be massive, too?


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## Guest (Jan 18, 2019)

Dr. Shatterhand said:


> But isn't the house also so big the productions have to be massive, too?


I went to Munich recently and saw a bunch of operas at Bavarian State Opera. Their National Theatre is large, biggest opera house in Germany, and they have productions all through the year with a break (and a festival) in summer. Their productions, however, were mostly not extravagant, tickets can be as cheap as going to the cinema (but there are some who pay more than 200 euro to see an opera), and most of the time tickets sell out quickly. The productions aren't massive and neither are the tickets, but the stage, audience, building and everything else is.


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## Guest (Jan 18, 2019)

Personally I prefer watching operas. Live is best.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

Swings and roundabouts, really.

Live performances give more of a sense of immediacy and excitement (and queuing in the gents)

BUT

The sound quality's clearer on a recording through my headphones.

Listening to opera, you concentrate on the sound.

Watching a DVD / video, you get the drama / characterization.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Opera is meant to be seen and heard, but music is its primary medium and the voice is central, even when the orchestra is prominent. I would rather listen to the greatest singers at home and imagine the _mise en scene_ than attend the most visually fascinating production and have to hear run-of-the-mill music-making.

Some operas can never be staged in a manner that does the evocative power of their music justice. I'm thinking of Wagner - but then he is rarely sung adequately either. I've seen _Tristan, Gotterdammerung_ and _Parsifal_ in the theater, but my profoundest experiences of these works have come while listening at home in a darkened room. No production could ever rival the images that the music evokes in my imagination. What does the Holy Grail look like? Don't show me some gilded cup or crystal bowl with a light bulb inside it. Wagner's violins and woodwinds, pulsing and throbbing and hovering softly like the wings of a night bird glimmering in starlight, are all I need.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

It does depend on the opera and also the mood I am in. With an opera like Tristan which is mainly psychological and which often features singers who are mature and quite unlike the young couple of the imagination, it is better to just listen. However an opera like Falstaff has a lot of action and requires watching as well as listening for full enjoyment.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I've never visited an opera house and I'm not too bothered about watching opera on TV or DVD (unless it was a work where there is no satisfactory performance on CD). Obviously opera exists in order for both the visuals and the music to be experienced but nevertheless I get sufficient pleasure from imagining the action in my mind's eye, and my mind's eye has the advantage of avoiding any _regietheater_ elements.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Live is awesome, but with a DVD you usually get much closer views and you can do replays.


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

DavidA said:


> I actually enjoyed the Cosi from the Met once the cinema had sorted out the subtitles.


You mean the cute trick at the beginning with each carnival member holding up a word from a sentence, and they kept changing up the order of them before settling down? I can do without that kind of stage direction, too. I also don't need animals on the stage, dogs or horses, though almost everyone has a soft spot for them. I'm always afraid one of the lead singers will step in something they left behind.


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> Some operas can never be staged in a manner that does the evocative power of their music justice. I'm thinking of Wagner - but then he is rarely sung adequately either. I've seen _Tristan, Gotterdammerung_ and _Parsifal_ in the theater, but my profoundest experiences of these works have come while listening at home in a darkened room.


I know what you mean about profound experiences coming when you participate by using your own imagination. Hearing world class voices live, though, there's nothing like it. Especially from the first row seat I somehow managed to snag for my Wagner concert performance.
So I'm in favor of live performance, but for the sound, not the visuals.


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

I prefer to listen to the recording let my imagination paint the picture. I do like to watch Opera with Mama.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Zofia said:


> I prefer to listen to the recording* let my imagination paint the picture*. I do like to watch Opera with Mama.


Well, this would be especially good with Wagner's Ring! I am afraid my imagination is not vivid in a graphic sense. My kids have very vivid imaginations and can re-watch movies in their heads as if it were on the screen in front of them. I am closer to what this person describes.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Open Book said:


> You mean the cute trick at the beginning with each carnival member holding up a word from a sentence, and they kept changing up the order of them before settling down? I can do without that kind of stage direction, too. I also don't need animals on the stage, dogs or horses, though almost everyone has a soft spot for them. *I'm always afraid one of the lead singers will step in something they left behind.*




I belueve it was Beecham who, when a horse had left behind an offering on the stage said, "Not just a musician - a critic!'


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