# Is the Emperor Concerto Beethoven's Crowning Achievement?



## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

Does Beethoven's 5th Piano Concerto represent the high point of his compositional career? I realize arguments can be made for a few of his symphonies, string quartets, piano sonatas, or numerous other works. It's been argued that the 5th isn't even his finest PC. Still, in terms of structure, orchestration, and consistency from start to finish, I'm of the opinion that this was his high water mark. I'm curious to see if anyone shares in my opinion, seeing how I've listened to a massive amount of Beethoven and that's a near drop in the bucket when compared to some here.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

I would argue that all of his string quartets would be a parallel achievement within Beethoven's arc of career.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Personally, I prefer his 3d and 4th over the 5th piano concerto, and there are several works that I like better than any of these (e.g. Symphony 6, late string quartets, violin concerto).


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

"Peak"? I'm glad that you enjoy the Emperor, and it certainly is one of the peaks. Think of LvB output as a mountain range with many peaks from which to choose.


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## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

Art Rock said:


> Personally, I prefer his 3d and 4th over the 5th piano concerto, and there are several works that I like better than any of these (e.g. Symphony 6, late string quartets, violin concerto).


I agree with this. I think his 6th symphony is his most polished work and I prefer his 14th and 15th SQs to his 5th PC. Still, in terms of best foot forward, I'm hard pressed to select a more appropriate work to represent his compositional skills at their finest. Maybe his 7th Symphony would work here too.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

For me 3 and 5 are equal.
The most exiting piece for me is the Coral fantasy.
Unbelievable : orchestra, piano, voices and choir........
Try to conduct that :tiphat:


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## Brad (Mar 27, 2014)

The EMPEROR concerto his CROWNING achievement? I assume the pun was not intended there, nevertheless I really appreciate it. Seriously though I do think it's up there for his best, and it's certainly my personal favorite of his. There are no dull moments in it to me.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

The "Emperor" has no clothes--I prefer #4.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

It's one of his best piano concertos, but probably not among my 20 favorite Beethoven works. I might put op. 132 as his crowning achievement, or better yet, say he doesn't have one.


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## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

GreenMamba said:


> It's one of his best piano concertos, but probably not among my 20 favorite Beethoven works. *I might put op. 132 as his crowning achievement*, or better yet, say he doesn't have one.


At the very least, I consider this his finest SQ.


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## AnotherSpin (Apr 9, 2015)

Pure scholastic interest. God speaks to us through Beethoven's music, all of it. Do we want to distinguish between less and more important words?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

AnotherSpin said:


> Pure scholastic interest. God speaks to us through Beethoven's music, all of it. Do we want to distinguish between less and more important words?


I think Beethoven was more interested in the Everyman than a 'god'

That being said, I think it's probably safe to assume that perhaps his 9th symphony or late string quartets are his pinnacle.


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## AnotherSpin (Apr 9, 2015)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I think Beethoven was more interested in the Everyman than a 'god'
> 
> That being said, I think it's probably safe to assume that perhaps his 9th symphony or late string quartets are his pinnacle.


I was not trying to hint what was LvB' interest. I do believe he was a very simple man with more than earthy interests. Exactly the type God select to speak to us.


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## manyene (Feb 7, 2015)

No; it shows a much lesser level of invention than the 4th Concerto, and I find it unduly repetitive. Neither works reach the level of his later quartets and piano sonatas and Symphonies 3,7 and 9


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## Oliver (Feb 14, 2012)

Not sure I would call it a crowning achievement. Personally I think nothing comes close to his late string quartets, not even the 9th symphony which is plainly overrated. Most of Mahler's symphonies beat it.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Someone above mentioned the Choral Fantasy. It's irrefutable evidence that he was not always serious, and was capable of creating highly entertaining non-serious music. It's a 'peak' that stands by itself; a sort of Mount Ascutney. Those other peaks form a range of mountains.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Oliver said:


> Not sure I would call it a crowning achievement. Personally I think nothing comes close to his late string quartets, not even the 9th symphony which is plainly overrated. *Most of Mahler's symphonies beat it*.


That my friend is a statement that even Mahler would have balked at! Mahler was greatly influenced by Beethoven's symphonies and considered the month something of a summit!


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

DavidA said:


> That my friend is a statement that even Mahler would have balked at! Mahler was greatly influenced by Beethoven's symphonies and considered the month something of a summit!


Hah! That _Oliver_ is plainly a troublemaker. Betcha there are mods reading his posts squinty-eyed now.


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## manyene (Feb 7, 2015)

No, he is merely being _cattivo_ to stir up some controversy and generate further posts (successfully, it seems).

If latecomers always stand on the shoulders of giants, can the accomplishments of those giants ever be exceeded? I was thinking that yesterday when listening to comparative reviews of a Monteverdi opera.


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

If no-one else is going to suggest the late piano works as a possible apogee of Beethoven's career, then I will, if only to stir the pot further.

The piano sonatas Op. 101 in A, Op. 106 in B-flat, Op. 109 in E, Op. 110 in A-flat and Op. 111 in C minor, the Diabelli variations Op 120 and the late bagatelles (Op. 119 Nos. 7-11 and Op. 126) are sublime, each and every one, ranging from the fleeting musical shards of the bagatelles to the monumental 'Hammerklavier' sonata.

But then like other contributors to this thread I think it's perhaps more helpful to think of there being several 'peaks' available to scale in Beethoven's oeuvre. I certainly couldn't argue with the alternative suggestion of the late string quartets.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Beethoven's career is like the Himalayas range - quite a few really tall peaks there


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

As a whole I probably prefer the 3rd and 4th piano concertos more. However, I'd say the slow movement of the Emperor is a crowning achievement in that category. It blows my mind and takes me to a surreal place every time I hear it. Overall, I prefer a lot of the late works more.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I grew up hearing this, from the time I was aware of music at all. One of my father's favorites! So it's hard to be objective...


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Triplets said:


> "Peak"? I'm glad that you enjoy the Emperor, and it certainly is one of the peaks. Think of LvB output as a mountain range with many peaks from which to choose.


I like the poetry and the truth in your statement.









































Overall, I find the experience of the 5th very mood-related, and at times the arresting character of the music can be less welcome than at other times, including the slow gravity of the Rondo.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The 5th is probably the first real virtuoso concerto. It is a great achievement even if I prefer the fourth and also the violin concerto. But with Beethoven you are usually on to a good thing!


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## Musicophile (May 29, 2015)

The 5th is actually somehow my least preferred piano concerto of Beethoven. Too much pompousness. I have the same issue with no. 5 I have with the 9th symphony. I'll take any of the four others (preferred 3 or 4) any time over no. 5.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

"To [Adorno's] pessimism there is no final response except that provided by listeners and musicians who seem to arise in every new generation and regard such works as the Eroica and the Emperor Concerto as among their most significant personal experiences. Listeners accept them not as antiquated expressions of a political idealism that has been cruelly banished by history, but as evocations of the human possibilities that might be realized in a better world. And by attending to the inner as well as the outer aspects of such works, such listeners still believe in the courage and beauty that they convey."

--Lockwood


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## Avey (Mar 5, 2013)

Along with previous posts, I am of the opinion that his *Fourth PC* is his _crowning_ achievement in the concerto repertoire. And with _crowning_, I mean his best, in my opinion. So passionate and melodic, without any superfluous notes.

Beyond the piano concertos, I do think his *late quartets* are preeminent compositions in his catalogue. They take significant steps beyond previous quartets of the era in dynamics and harmony. Also, random comment: Op. 131/2 get all the love, but Op. 130 and 129 are equally as great (read: greater).

But I haven't even answered the question! So, despite all I said, for present purposes, I submit that the _*Missa Solemnis*_ is Beethoven's finest achievement. This work's scope is so beyond anything he wrote, including that D Minor piece that followed.


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

That's the one that has a Hanon exercise embedded in the first movement, right? I don't think it's his best work. To me, it has all the stereotypical traits I dislike about "Heroic Beethoven" all rolled up into one piece. Maybe part of this is being forced to listen to it so many times. It's a popular choice for Summer Festivals as with Tchaikovsky's piano concerto and the 1812 overture. I prefer his first and fourth piano concertos and I've heard them just as much, but unlike the Emperor, their appeal didn't lessen over the years.


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## AnotherSpin (Apr 9, 2015)

Guys, Beethoven himself is a crowning achievement. Anything he put on a note paper weights more than any smart opinion about this or anything else. Relax.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

AnotherSpin said:


> Guys, Beethoven himself is a crowning achievement. Anything he put on a note paper weights more than any smart opinion about this or anything else. Relax.


So maybe we shouldn't have a forum at all?

Relax yourself.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I hear people talking about how the scales run up and down interminably in the first movement, or how the second theme is trivial (Glenn Gould thought so too), but really, none of that matters. It's the Emperor.

Grove claims it got its nickname from an early performance where an old campaigner, overcome, rose to his feet in the first movement and cried, "Vive l'Empereur!"


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## Polyphemus (Nov 2, 2011)

For me the Fourth is by far the most significant and important of the Piano Concerti.


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

GreenMamba said:


> So maybe we shouldn't have a forum at all?
> 
> Relax yourself.


:lol: dfask;dlfasollasdlfknsdfoia;sdf


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## Le Peel (May 15, 2015)

Forget significance or importance. Am I the only one who enjoys the classical bearings of Beethoven's first and second piano concertos over the bravado of the Emperor?


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

It is one of my least favorite Beethoven works. I do quite like his 3rd and 4th PC's. 

But Beethoven is not a composer I really get. To my tastes his first Piano Sonata is more of a crowning achievement than most of the later works people rave about.

I'll take his Violin Sonatas, Cello Sonatas and Piano Trios over his Symphonies and String Quartets.

My vote for his crowning achievement would possibly be the Archduke Trio.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I vote 9th symphony.


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## Pyotr (Feb 26, 2013)

I agree with every post in this thread except the one about Mahler.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

I also think it's the _Missa Solemnis_, if I had to choose one.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

scratchgolf said:


> Does Beethoven's 5th Piano Concerto represent the high point of his compositional career? I realize arguments can be made for a few of his symphonies, string quartets, piano sonatas, or numerous other works. It's been argued that the 5th isn't even his finest PC. Still, in terms of structure, orchestration, and consistency from start to finish, I'm of the opinion that this was his high water mark. I'm curious to see if anyone shares in my opinion, seeing how I've listened to a massive amount of Beethoven and that's a near drop in the bucket when compared to some here.


It was the world's second Romantic piano concerto (the first was piano concerto #4), so yes it was Louis' finest achievement in many ways.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

GreenMamba said:


> So maybe we shouldn't have a forum at all?
> 
> Relax yourself.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I love only the middle movement of the "Emperor." The rest is no less superbly written, but strikes me, as it struck a pianist I know, as "public music," music too reliant on the grand gesture to give us the inmost depths of Beethoven the man.

So many of Beethoven's works are, taken purely as compositions, utterly masterful, and that certainly includes this concerto. But I find much elsewhere in his output that seeks and finds deeper meaning.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Well, it is indeed "public music". So is Schubert's Great C Major.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Well, it is indeed "public music". So is Schubert's Great C Major.


About which I feel much the same way.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

GreenMamba said:


> So maybe we shouldn't have a forum at all?
> 
> Relax yourself.


Good one, GreenMamba. 

I enjoy any Beethoven on any given day honestly. I just like to kick back and throw it on any given moment.


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## Avey (Mar 5, 2013)

ArtMusic said:


> It was the world's second Romantic piano concerto (the first was piano concerto #4), so yes it was Louis' finest achievement in many ways.


Question 1: When did the "Romantic" era begin?

Question 2: What is "romantic"?

Question 3: Because it was the "second Romantic piano concerto" we thus conclude it is his "finest achievement in many ways"?

I am thoroughly confused. Please explain.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Several composers seem to have written "public music" and "private music" quite separately. The obvious 20th-century example is Shostakovich. But quite a bit of DSCH's "public music" seems well loved...


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Question 1: When did the "Romantic" era begin? *About the first decade or so of the 19th century, some might even say earlier for example with Mozart's symphony #40.*

Question 2: What is "romantic"? *19th century music, read this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romantic_music *

Question 3: Because it was the "second Romantic piano concerto" we thus conclude it is his "finest achievement in many ways"? *Yes, there was nothing quite like Beethoven's later piano concertos. Mozart effectively developed the classical symphonic piano concerto and then Beethoven took it over further for Romanticism*

I am thoroughly confused. Please explain. *Hope this helps.*


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Avey said:


> Question 3: Because it was the "second Romantic piano concerto" we thus conclude it is his "finest achievement in many ways"?


Any idiot can write one Romantic piano concerto, but it's quite an achievement to write a second one.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Beethoven arguably remained totally classical until the end in the way he treated tonality - that is, an architectural way, driven by building of tension and release through large-scale, symmetrical relationships.

It is totally different from what Chopin would do just a couple years later - let's just modulate from D flat to A on a dime because, hey, it sounds neat! Of course there's more to it than that, but it really was the beginning of a very different approach.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

isorhythm said:


> Beethoven arguably remained totally classical until the end in the way he treated tonality - that is, an architectural way, driven by building of tension and release through large-scale, symmetrical relationships.
> 
> It is totally different from what Chopin would do just a couple years later - let's just modulate from D flat to A on a dime because, hey, it sounds neat! Of course there's more to it than that, but it really was the beginning of a very different approach.


Beethoven's worked slicker than... well, slicker than a pomade pompadour.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Ukko said:


> Someone above mentioned the Choral Fantasy. It's irrefutable evidence that he was not always serious, and was capable of creating highly entertaining non-serious music. It's a 'peak' that stands by itself; a sort of Mount Ascutney. Those other peaks form a range of mountains.


I _love _the Mt. Ascutney reference!


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## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

Interesting thoughts here. I saw a few mentions of Beethoven's late string quartets. I love his 15th and 14th and rather enjoy his 13th. Still, groundbreaking and trailblazing don't necessarily translate to "best". If Beethoven realized what he'd started, he may have been the only one. As for the 9th Symphony, it's 3.5 movements of the most divine music I've ever heard. I also love his 3rd and 4th PCs but there's just something about his 5th. So many twists and turns. So many memorable melodies and moments. Never too much piano or orchestra. And the way he has orchestral instruments talking with the piano is delightful.


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## Guest (Jun 17, 2015)

Still, twists and turns, and melodies and moments, and delightful don't necessarily translate to "best."


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## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

some guy said:


> Still, twists and turns, and melodies and moments, and delightful don't necessarily translate to "best."


Man, I missed you. And very true. Still, they're my reasons and I like em. :tiphat:


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

The Emperor concerto is fine, but nothing tops Missa Solemnis, I believe - it could be used to start a new religion and act as its central tenet.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

GreenMamba said:


> Any idiot can write one Romantic piano concerto, but it's quite an achievement to write a second one.


LOL indeed indeed or fifteen meh quality ones.


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