# Telemann is greater than Bach.



## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Towards the end of his life, pretty much everyone ("Classical period") was doing what Telemann (high taste and simplicity) does. One of the most gifted melodists ever, there is little Telemann that is not immediately hummable. Bach's polyphony was a sideshow. Mozart utterly rejected such polyphony, rightfully so. Beethoven was corrupted by Bach when he wrote some truly harsh-sounding fugues (Grosse Fugue... just gross). Beethoven's greatest works, like the 9th Symphony, 4th movement, are the child of Telemann. The inferiority of Bach to Telemann was widely acknowledged in their day and the retroactive declaration that Bach was greater than Telemann is the insidious work of notorious academics.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

No.


That's all I had to say.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Couchie said:


> ...The inferiority of Bach to Telemann was widely acknowledged in their day and the retroactive declaration that Bach was greater than Telemann is the insidious work of notorious academics.


These academics (the "stinking ninth" as Chairman Mao called them) have all been flagged for re-education. With prejudice.


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

Cool...........


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Every Telemann piece presents a great melody (ask Handel, who liked to "borrow" them), clearly restated for your enjoyment in case you missed it the first, second, or third times. With Bach, the melody twists and turns in on itself in sickness and its clarity muddled by other concurrent melodies battling for attention in such a confusing manner that the entire practice can only be described as being inspired by the devil. Such so-called "development", held in high esteem by the perversely deluded and mislead, is a decadence.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Couchie said:


> Every Telemann piece presents a great melody (ask Handel, who liked to "borrow" them), clearly restated for your enjoyment in case you missed it the first, second, or third times. With Bach, the melody twists and turns in on itself in sickness and its clarity muddled by other concurrent melodies in such a confusing manner that the entire practice can only be described as being inspired by the devil. Such so-called "development", held in high esteem by the perversely deluded and mislead, is a decadence.


Indeed, listening to a Bach piece with its multiple and unrewarding lines can best be compared with watching a seal balancing a spinning ball on its nose. Which is to say, diverting for a bit but quickly growing stale.


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

You'll be accused of trolling.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

What the ...... make a poll / game.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

KenOC said:


> Indeed, listening to a Bach piece with its multiple and unrewarding lines can best be compared with watching a seal balancing a spinning ball on its nose. Which is to say, diverting for a bit but quickly growing stale.


And a "great" Bach piece further develops into a seal spinning a seal spinning a ball on its nose on its nose. People actually rejoice at such a circus displays of composition.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Open Book said:


> You'll be accused of trolling.


I expect such slanderous accusations for daring to speak out against the Bachian orthodoxy.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Couchie said:


> Bach's polyphony was a sideshow. Mozart utterly rejected such polyphony, rightfully so.







There's never a period in W.A. Mozart's life where he neglected or abandoned the strict style. Remember, he has his roots in the Salzburg liturgical tradition. His early influences were Leopold Mozart, Johann Ernst Eberlin, Michael Haydn, (also Padre Martini of Bologna) who were (surprisingly) skillful contrapuntists themselves.

score of Pignus Futurae Gloriae double fugue from Leopold's Litaniae in C: http://conquest.imslp.info/files/im...MLP169311-Litaniæ_de_Venerabili_C.pdf#page=42
Gloria fugue of Leopold's Missa Solemnis: 



Credo fugue: 



Finale to Michael Haydn's symphony in D major, copied out by Wolfgang (K291): 



Benedixisti Domine de Johann Ernst Eberlin (1702 - 1762): 




_"In fact, he (Wolfgang) composed extremely ambitious fugues in a large number of such sacred pieces; these are an early witness to his contrapuntal interests and abilities. Indeed, Mozart's contrapuntal education, based on his father's compositions and on Salzburg's tradtions, had been early and swift. In addtion, he had acquainted himself, beginning in 1770, with the strict and deeply traditional world of Johann Joseph Fux's Gradus ad Parnassum. *Leopold admonished his son openly in 1777 that he not forget to make public demonstration of his abilities in "fugue, canon, and contrapunctus.*"_
http://mrc.hanyang.ac.kr/wp-content/jspm/20/jspm_2006_20_10.pdf#page=8

In the last decade of his life, Wolfgang (after intense study of Bach and Handel) came to consider Eberlin "trivial" compared to Bach and Handel.

On 20 April 1782 he wrote to Leopold:

_"If Papa has not yet had those [instrumental] works by Eberlin copied, so much the better, for in the meantime I have got hold of them and now I see (for I had forgotten them) that *they are unfortunately far too trivial to deserve a place beside Handel and Bach.* With due respect for his four-part composition I may say that his clavier fugues are nothing but long-drawn-out voluntaries..."_
https://books.google.ca/books?id=Ep4PXMszMv4C&pg=PA149

Mozart wrote a string trio transcription of a fugue from Art of the Fugue (K404). And some speculate that the opening of Fantasie in C minor K475 (



) is a tribute to Bach Musical Offering. (https://archive.schillerinstitute.com/fid_97-01/984_sub_moral_appen_PDFs/chapter-5.PDF) As for Mass in B minor, (I'm not sure if Mozart did but) Haydn did know the work. https://books.google.ca/books?id=ZbT1AAAAQBAJ&pg=PA219














Missa solemnis in C minor "Waisenhausmesse" KV 139 Gloria: 



Missa solemnis in C minor "Waisenhausmesse" KV 139 Credo: 



Mass in C major "Dominicus Messe" K66 Gloria: 



Mass in C major "Dominicus Messe" K66 Credo: 



Te Deum in C major K. 141: 



Miserere in A minor, [4-part contrapuntal study] K.85 



Kyrie in D minor [4-part contrapuntal study] K.90: 



KV125 - Pignus Futuræ Gloriæ: 



Missa in honorem Sanctissimae Trinitatis in C major KV 167 Gloria: 



Missa in honorem Sanctissimae Trinitatis in C major KV 167 Credo: 



Missa in honorem Sanctissimae Trinitatis in C major KV 167 Agnus Dei: 



Missa Longa in C K262 Gloria: 



Missa Longa in C K262 Credo [triple fugue]: 



Missa Longa in C K262 Sanctus: 



Laudate pueri (from Vesperae de Dominica), K 321: 



Missa solemnis in C, K.337 - Benedictus:


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

So according to your account, Mozart undertook "intense" study of Bach. The infernal polyphony no doubt slowly unravelled his mind, and then he suffered and died, at too young of an age. Bach killed Mozart, let us add that to his list of crimes.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Couchie said:


> So according to your account, Mozart undertook "intense" study of Bach. The infernal polyphony no doubt slowly unravelled his mind, and then he suffered and died, at too young of an age. Bach killed Mozart, let us add that to his list of crimes.


Bach had a malign influence on others as well. His music inspired Beethoven to write his "Gross Fugue", a work that was, at least, appropriately named.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

KenOC said:


> Bach had a malign influence on others as well. His music inspired Beethoven to write his "Gross Fugue", a work that was, at least, appropriately named.


Also the hammerklavier sonata, a fugue recalling the sounds elicited from using a sledge hammer upon the delicate inner workings of the pianoforte. Bach was truely heinous.


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

Bach later reincarnated as George W. Bush.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Couchie said:


> Beethoven was corrupted by Bach when he wrote some truly harsh-sounding fugues (Grosse Fugue... just gross).


_"Finally we have in this letter new proof of Beethoven's admiration for the genius of Bach. In the same year, in a letter to Hofmeister, he had spoken of the great art of this progenitor of harmony."_
https://books.google.ca/books?id=W8KZBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA44

Obviously Beethoven was inspired by Mozart, Haydn, who were themselves inspired by Bach, Handel. I heard one lecturer discussing Beethoven's Op.131, that Beethoven had a distorted sense of classicism which made him interesting. He said that (arguably) the two most significant form, or process that developed in the baroque and classical eras were the sonata form and the fugue, and that Beethoven's predecessors would write the first movement in sonata form, the last movement as a fugue. Whereas Beethoven turned it on its head and wrote Op.131, starting with a fugue, ending with a sonata movement.














And I believe it was Mozart who inspired Beethoven in the writing of Grosse Fuge as well. Beethoven copied out Mozart's dissonant C minor fugue by hand (Hess 37).






_"The remarkable Adagio and Fugue in C minor is one of a number of works he composed in the 1780s which re-imagine and extend the style of the baroque through Mozart's own harmonic language. Despite its relative brevity it is remarkable for its intensity and power, looking forward to Beethoven's Grosse Fuge as well as back to the splendours of the past."_
http://classicalopera.intelligenthe...8/2012-05-Ruhe-sanft-press-release.pdf#page=2


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

> The inferiority of Bach to Telemann was widely acknowledged in their day and the retroactive declaration that Bach was greater than Telemann is the insidious work of notorious academics.


Also, Telemann has a longer surname, which in itself suggests a more sophisticated character, of course.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

joen_cph said:


> Also, Telemann has a longer surname, which in itself suggests a more sophisticated character, of course.


Yes, and this is of course why Telemann's music is much too lofty to me.


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## classical yorkist (Jun 29, 2017)

I didn't think there was a more zealous evangelist for Telemann on this board than me but even I wouldn't make this claim. Look, as far as I'm concerned, it shouldn't be a competition. Telemann and Bach had very different approaches to composition and the philosophy of music. Telemann liked to use music in a simple, clear manner to express and incite emotion in his audience and Bach seemed keen on exploring the contrapuntal and fugal possibilities of music to an absolute end. Neither approach is wrong, it's just different. Let's not forget that Telemann and Bach were great friends, Telemann was CPE Bach's godfather after all, and both men would probably laugh heartily at this thread.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Hey, this is the 21st Century. Telemann is sexist and should be referred to as Telepersonn.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

And if you assign the appropriate numbers to the letters in their names and poperly manipulate them, you can prove numeralogically that Bach was the Antichrist.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

1 m 68 cm versus 1 m 69 cm - hardly any difference between the two.


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## Ras (Oct 6, 2017)

MarkW said:


> And if you assign the appropriate numbers to the letters in their names and poperly manipulate them, you can prove numeralogically that Bach was the Antichrist.


The numerologists may get the last say on this, because Bach used numerology in his compositions.


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## Bourdon (Jan 4, 2019)

Telemann was taller than Bach.......


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## Totenfeier (Mar 11, 2016)

"I'll be Telemann!" doesn't work _nearly_ as well in _The Terminator._


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## classical yorkist (Jun 29, 2017)

One thing we can be certain of his that the popularity of Telemann was far in advance of that of his friend Bach. We also know that Herr Bach was a regular subscriber of Telemann's published works as well.


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## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

Get over it and move on!


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Couchie, I'm disappointed that you didn't keep this thread until April next year. Very early April, maybe even the 1st? :lol::lol:


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## AeolianStrains (Apr 4, 2018)

Why didn't Telemann ever write chair music, huh? It's always the table that gets the special treatment!


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

Couchie said:


> Towards the end of his life, pretty much everyone ("Classical period") was doing what Telemann (high taste and simplicity) does. One of the most gifted melodists ever, there is little Telemann that is not immediately hummable.


I've never noticed that Telemann was a particularly great melodist. Can you give an example of a piece by Telemann that would support your claim?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I thought Telemann was one of the Teletubbies. The tall lavender one with the purse and the triangular antenna. At least his music is gay.


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2019)

Haydn was a vastly superior opera composer as compared to Richard Wagner.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

How can the question in the OP be answered? Those who don't like Bach have a new chance to knock his music again. They may need to adopt Telemann to support their view. Those who like both (I am one) can only agree or disagree. To me, Bach was one of the three or four greatest and Telemann was one of the four or five greatest Baroque composers.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

"Come, Mister Telemann, tally me banana
Daylight come and me wan' go home
Come, Mister Telemann, tally me banana
Daylight come and me wan' go home"


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## robin4 (Jun 9, 2019)

Couchie:

"Bach's polyphony was a sideshow"


Many consider Bach's B minor Mass to be the greatest work of art in Western Civilization.


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## MusicSybarite (Aug 17, 2017)




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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

I'm glad that really smart people tell us how things really are!


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

Off to Kolyma with Couchie.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DrMike said:


> Haydn was a vastly superior opera composer as compared to Richard Wagner.


Wagner's mistake was to give up powdered wigs for winged helmets.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Let it not be forgotten, in case this hasn't been mentioned yet:

"Particularly striking examples of such [negative] judgements [of Telemann] were produced by noted Bach biographers Philipp Spitta and Albert Schweitzer, who criticized Telemann's cantatas and then praised works they thought were composed by Bach, but which were composed by Telemann."

Every once in a while the musicologists and historians need to be challenged for their hubris. Besides what he's best known for, Telemann wrote some wonderful concertos that I've greatly enjoyed. One of the negatives against "T" in fairly recent times is that Horowitz didn't like his music and would complain about it when he heard it on the radio... In his lifetime, Telemann probably made five times the amount during his lifetime that Bach did but he was also a godparent to one of Bach's children and obviously held in very high regard by the Lutheran master. History is not always black-and-white, so simple, and sometimes historians like Schweitzer thinks he absolutely knows what's good or bad and yet may be completely mistaken by misidentifying certain works. It was unfair to Telemann though Bach is still regarded more highly than he is or Telemann would be played more. Nevertheless, Telemann has his foot in the repertoire once again and is not likely to be forgotten. I feel it's a good lesson all around on how the critics, including ones with big reputations, can sometimes be entirely wrong.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Open Book said:


> I've never noticed that Telemann was a particularly great melodist. Can you give an example of a piece by Telemann that would support your claim?


I don't know, ever hear of THE ARRIVAL OF THE QUEEN OF SHEBA? One of Handel's great works, no? Nope. Telemann. Handel stole it. Just like Bach stole Telemann's post-mortem glory.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

DrMike said:


> Haydn was a vastly superior opera composer as compared to Richard Wagner.


Wagner didn't write operas, he wrote music-dramas.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

robin4 said:


> Couchie:
> 
> "Bach's polyphony was a sideshow"
> 
> Many consider Bach's B minor Mass to be the greatest work of art in Western Civilization.


"OoOoOh I'M bAcH... I WrItE iN mInOr KeYs So PeOpLe TaKe Me SeRiOuSlY..."


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Totenfeier said:


> "I'll be Telemann!" doesn't work _nearly_ as well in _The Terminator._


Yet Tele-mann would make a great superhero to fight against The Terminator.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

During the Bach revival, Telemann faded into obscurity. Tales were told by notorious academics about how Bach's 200 cantatas were superior to those of Telemann, when later some such pieces used in demonstration turned out to actually be by Telemann (who wrote 1000+ cantatas), not Bach! Infamy!


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

How's this for influence - the average person can probably not tell a CPE Bach orchestral piece or concerto from a Telemann. Bach's own son! Turned away from the horrors of his father and sought the light.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Couchie said:


> Wagner didn't write operas, he wrote music-dramas.


He called his operas various things. _Tristan_ was a "Handlung." _Parsifal_ was a "Buehnenweihfestspiel." We're lucky he didn't call it a "Grosserhochgeistlicherbuehnenweihfestspiel."


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Couchie said:


> I don't know, ever hear of THE ARRIVAL OF THE QUEEN OF SHEBA? One of Handel's great works, no? Nope. Telemann. Handel stole it. Just like Bach stole Telemann's post-mortem glory.


Better than what Handel made of it. Seriously, Telemann has been grossly underestimated. I don't think any other Baroque composer turned out so much excellent and varied music. He was constantly trying new things and his imagination seemed bottomless, with the consequence that his music doesn't rely on formulas the way Vivaldi's often does. No one would even think to say that Telemann wrote the same concerto 500 times.


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## anahit (Dec 10, 2018)

Couchie said:


> Mozart utterly rejected such polyphony, rightfully so.


Mozart studied j.s.bach music very much actually. and yes, towards the end of his life mozart is more polyphonic.

i love some of telemmans music - he is genius indeed, yet i love all of bach music. even recitativos. hihi

bach and telemann were friends, would be nice to see them eating dinner together.


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## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

I don't know, I find it much easier to make puns on Bach.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

chu42 said:


> I don't know, I find it much easier to make puns on Bach.


Just be careful what you Telemann, lest you have to take it Bach.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

(Warning, sexist joke follows)

Is Telemann the fastest form of communication?

No, that woud be Telewoman.


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

This lovely cantata is a favourite of mine and I would put it up against any of Bach's


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## Guest (Sep 14, 2019)

Gallus said:


> This lovely cantata is a favourite of mine and I would put it up against any of Bach's


Sorry, I couldn't hear it over my Bach.


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## Guest (Sep 14, 2019)

Couchie said:


> Wagner didn't write operas, he wrote music-dramas.


Yeah, I would be ashamed to call them operas, too. More like interminable, mind-numbingly boring dreck with a modestly interesting soundtrack playing in the background.


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## Guest (Sep 14, 2019)

Telemann was an excellent composer of Tafelmusik, music meant to be played in the background, pleasant, but not meant to be overpowering or to distract from conversation. Muzak.


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## MaxKellerman (Jun 4, 2017)

DrMike said:


> Yeah, I would be ashamed to call them operas, too. More like interminable, mind-numbingly boring dreck with a modestly interesting soundtrack playing in the background.





DrMike said:


> Telemann was an excellent composer of Tafelmusik, music meant to be played in the background, pleasant, but not meant to be overpowering or to distract from conversation. Muzak.


Huh. There seem to be a lot of people who have a deep personal connection and are greatly inspired by mind numbingly boring dreck and pleasant muzak. I guess the problem is with _them_.

I don't know or care what Telemann's intentions were for writing his music, all I know is it's full of melodic invention and some seriously gorgeous themes. Wonderful composer.


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## Ras (Oct 6, 2017)

MaxKellerman said:


> Huh. There seem to be a lot of people who have a deep personal connection and are greatly inspired by mind numbingly boring dreck and pleasant muzak. I guess the problem is with _them_.
> 
> I don't know or care what Telemann's intentions were for writing his music, all I know is it's full of melodic invention and some seriously gorgeous themes. Wonderful composer.


Telemann was a good composer - but not in Bach's league.


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## MaxKellerman (Jun 4, 2017)

Ras said:


> Telemann was a good composer - but not in Bach's league.


On that we agree. But thankfully it's possible to enjoy both immensely without having to rank or compare them.


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## Guest (Sep 14, 2019)

No. If this website has taught us anything, it is that you absolutely must rank and compare composers.


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## classical yorkist (Jun 29, 2017)

Ras said:


> Telemann was a good composer - but not in Bach's league.


I agree with this and yet I'd much rather listen to Telemann over Bach nearly every time.
As the baroque composer Johan Mattheson wrote:

"Lully is celebrated; Corelli enjoys praise; Telemann alone towers way above."

Herr Bach is not even worthy of being mentioned!


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

One of the best and most catchy Telemann discs I've ever encountered. 
Strangely, the superb Nations-Ouverture didn't make it to most CD releases of this, if any.









The orchestral Ouvertures generally, some of the concertos, and the Ino Cantata, are among his better works.


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## Ras (Oct 6, 2017)

classical yorkist said:


> I agree with this and yet I'd much rather listen to Telemann over Bach nearly every time.
> As the baroque composer Johan Mattheson wrote:
> 
> "Lully is celebrated; Corelli enjoys praise; Telemann alone towers way above."
> ...


Yes, Bach wasn't that famous in his time - it's posterity that has elevated him to his current hight.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Fwiw, my favorite Telemann is the Bruggen Tafelmusik.


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## Alfacharger (Dec 6, 2013)

joen_cph said:


> One of the best and most catchy Telemann discs I've ever encountered.
> Strangely, the superb Nations-Ouverture didn't make it to most CD releases of this, if any.
> 
> View attachment 123817
> ...


I have this CD that has Les Nations, very enjoyable.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

The Brilliant edition recording is good too, but IMO doesn't always sparkle quite as much as Marriner. 
I don't know yours, but it's a fine and varied work for sure ...


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

DrMike said:


> More like interminable, mind-numbingly boring dreck with a modestly interesting soundtrack playing in the background.


Much like the experience of reading your posts


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

joen_cph said:


> One of the best and most catchy Telemann discs I've ever encountered.
> Strangely, the superb Nations-Ouverture didn't make it to most CD releases of this, if any.
> 
> The orchestral Ouvertures generally, some of the concertos, and the Ino Cantata, are among his better works.


The Darmstadt Overtures are some of my favourite Telemann works. Harnoncourt does a good recording of them.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

I've only heard samples but based on that I agree (Harnoncourt's Zelenka LP from those years is also a gem).


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## Guest (Sep 14, 2019)

Couchie said:


> Much like the experience of reading your posts


And yet you have read and responded at least twice in this thread alone. In contrast I just don't listen to Wagner.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Without dissing Telmann it's a bit bizarre to say he was greater as a composer to the man who many people would rate as one of the three greatest composers ever. the OP is just trying to provoke a reaction I would say


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Contrary no doubt to the oncoming OP responses, I'd suggest that this may be a satirical thread.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

joen_cph said:


> Contrary no doubt to the oncoming OP responses, I'd suggest that this may be a satirical thread.


This was my impression as well but this is the internet.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Ras said:


> Yes, Bach wasn't that famous in his time - it's posterity that has elevated him to his current hight.


And seen in the retroperspectoscope of history, not without good reason.


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

On the amazon forum there was someone who considered Schumann a greater composer than Beethoven. There was no doubt he was serious because his posts were...serious. Diversity of opinion makes the world go 'round.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

My candidate for a greater-than-Beethoven is well known to us all. While Beethoven brings heartburn and indigestion, this wonderful composer, like Holst’s Jupiter, brings jollity.

A great time to listen to Raff
Is right when you finish your baff.
As you towel yourself dry,
You can toke and get high
And then listen, and chortle, and laff.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Posted on the wrong thread before, but Telemann had next to no dissonance in his music, and was much less progressive than Bach. The contemporaries and critics of the day were less accepting of Bach boldness than the audience now. When I was learning piano, I much preferred Telemann.


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## classical yorkist (Jun 29, 2017)

I give the basic argument of this thread very little credence and I'm a massive lover of Telemann. However, I do think Georg has been unfairly sidelined in what I would called a Romantic rereading of Baroque music. This rereading of history favours Bach and his solo path to the detriment of Telemann but Telemann is a brilliant composer. I think one need only listen to his Paris Quartets to form that opinion.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I'm partial to Telemann's sacred choral works - a goldmine of wonderful music. Writing for the voice was so natural for him.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Without dissing Telmann it's a bit bizarre to say he was greater as a composer to the man who many people would rate as one of the three greatest composers ever. the OP is just trying to provoke a reaction I would say


No. If you read other posts by Couchie, on his other subjects, this expands upon them.

He's an interesting fellow.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Phil loves classical said:


> Posted on the wrong thread before, but Telemann had next to no dissonance in his music, and was much less progressive than Bach. The contemporaries and critics of the day were less accepting of Bach boldness than the audience now. When I was learning piano, I much preferred Telemann.


Yes, I did too. He had a clarity of purpose in his simple approaches. They seem to be universal examples, which is what I was looking for. G minor, what shall we do with it? Very straightforward.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Couchie said:


> Towards the end of his life, pretty much everyone ("Classical period") was doing what Telemann (high taste and simplicity) does. One of the most gifted melodists ever, there is little Telemann that is not immediately hummable. Bach's polyphony was a sideshow. Mozart utterly rejected such polyphony, rightfully so. Beethoven was corrupted by Bach when he wrote some truly harsh-sounding fugues (Grosse Fugue... just gross). Beethoven's greatest works, like the 9th Symphony, 4th movement, are the child of Telemann. The inferiority of Bach to Telemann was widely acknowledged in their day and the retroactive declaration that Bach was greater than Telemann is the insidious work of notorious academics.


I agree with much of what you say, if for different reasons. Bach's polyphony was a "sideshow" to the extent that it was a technique with very specific and limited capabilities.
Mozart and Beethoven were both "harmonic" thinkers, which was the "new way" of thinking. It's well-known that Bach rejected the harmonic theorizing of Rameau, and preferred to use his archaic, limited figured-bass system, which could not adapt to later harmonic developments which were too complex and varied for the old system.

In his defense, Bach is a "snapshot" of music's harmonic development, but was quickly surpassed by later harmonically more complex music.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

classical yorkist said:


> I didn't think there was a more zealous evangelist for Telemann on this board than me but even I wouldn't make this claim. *Look, as far as I'm concerned, it shouldn't be a competition. Telemann and Bach had very different approaches to composition and the philosophy of music. Telemann liked to use music in a simple, clear manner to express and incite emotion in his audience and Bach seemed keen on exploring the contrapuntal and fugal possibilities of music to an absolute end. Neither approach is wrong, it's just different.* Let's not forget that Telemann and Bach were great friends, Telemann was CPE Bach's godfather after all, and both men would probably laugh heartily at this thread.


\

I *do *think it can be argued that Bach's counterpoint and figured-bass thinking was soon eclipsed by harmonic thinking, which was more flexible and changeable, not to mention growing in complexity with more modulations and new chords.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

MarkW said:


> And if you assign the appropriate numbers to the letters in their names and poperly manipulate them, you can prove numeralogically that Bach was the Antichrist.


All of these "flip" replies bring me to wonder: what are these people listening to when they compare Bach with Mozart and Telleman? Can they really not distinguish the differences between contrapuntal music and harmonic music?


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

robin4 said:


> Couchie:
> 
> "Bach's polyphony was a sideshow"
> 
> Many consider Bach's B minor Mass to be the greatest work of art in Western Civilization.


That may be true, but music moved on from there. I think the point here should be not to "dis" Bach, or counterpoint, but simply to show its difference to harmonic thinking, and how music evolved to more harmonically complex areas which counterpoint could not deal with effectively.

One of Dmitri Tymoczko's principles (in _A Geometry of Music_) is that "harmony and counterpoint constrain one another" (p.112).


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

millionrainbows;1702223} said:


> One of Dmitri Tymoczko's principles (in _A Geometry of Music_) is that "harmony and counterpoint constrain one another" (p.112).


Not in Bach's music - and this is just but one part of his greatness.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

These threads are pointless. Bach wins every time, why fight it?


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## classical yorkist (Jun 29, 2017)

Red Terror said:


> These threads are pointless. Bach wins every time, why fight it?


Pointless? No, I dispute that. The journey is just as important as the destination surely? Someone may have their eyes opened to a new composer, a new work or even a new way of thinking about a topic. That has to be worthwhile.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

premont said:


> Not in Bach's music - and this is just but one part of his greatness.


You're right; and thanks for that in-depth explanation!


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Yes, these threads are pointless when the replies are all terse, pithy, short, clever, and devoid of any real content.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> You're right; and thanks for that in-depth explanation!


The claim you quoted and which I contradicted ("harmony and counterpoint constrain one another") was equally short and even pointless.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

premont said:


> The claim you quoted and which I contradicted ("harmony and counterpoint constrain one another") was equally short and even pointless.


Then here is the complete version:


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

I like this thread!

Until now I thought the biggest chance to burst the Bach bubble is to praise Händel but If I'll have to switch sides to Telemann....NO PROBLEM!


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

There is a poll between Telemann and Bach. Telemann has yet to get a vote.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

When I found out that Bach dissed Rameau, my opinion of Bach dropped a few points.


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

millionrainbows said:


> When I found out that Bach dissed Rameau, my opinion of Bach dropped a few points.


Did he diss Rameau's music? I was under the impression that his beef was with Rameau's chordal theory.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

millionrainbows said:


> When I found out that Bach dissed Rameau, my opinion of Bach dropped a few points.


I go the opposite way! It makes Bach seem more of a creative artist with a vision. We don't have to accept his vision as the only possible one but he did.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> When I found out that Bach dissed Rameau, my opinion of Bach dropped a few points.


I diss Rameau too. He was one of the people who turned music into dramatic entertainment. Bad move that, IMO.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Mandryka said:


> I diss Rameau too. He was one of the people who turned music into dramatic entertainment. Bad move that, IMO.


Rameau, and others, were beholden to the expectations of the times and the employment scene. Yet he was clever and creative.

Bach was cantankerous. He could even explore musical development in his church music.


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## Judas Priest Fan (Apr 27, 2018)

As a relative noob to classical music, I have never even heard of Telemann. I´ll be checking out his music soon 

On another note, I really don´t care for Bach.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Gallus said:


> Did he diss Rameau's music? I was under the impression that his beef was with Rameau's chordal theory.


I'm talking strictly about what Bach thought of Rameau's theory of chords.

Bach's figured bass system was for keyboard players, not for analysis. For example, Bach had two kinds of 6/4 chords, those that retard a following 5/3, and those which retard a following 6/3. This is concerned with the _behavior_ of chords, not their identification. Students identified these by interval, then filled in the rest of it. It did not aid in the identification of chords by root.

This is the reason Bach's thorough bass method fell into disuse; it had too many chords and was redundant, as we see from the example above. This is my main criticism of Bach; he was "anti-theory" and very pragmatic. Since I am sympathetic to music theory, the quadrivium, and modern tonal theory, this makes Bach's attitude seem rather archaic to me.


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## atsizat (Sep 14, 2015)

Vivaldi is greater than both.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

On your planet maybe.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

If you people really think that Telemann is so good, then why there isn't a single vote for him at this moment at the Top Baroque Composers of All Time poll?


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

For many people there's a lifelong interest in analyzing Bach's music.

That can't be said about Telemann's music.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

The difference between Telemann and Bach. Telemann first came up with this theme around 1716, and Bach adapted it several times, maybe as sort of a compliment or homage:


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## Tasto solo (Sep 7, 2015)

Luchesi said:


> For many people there's a lifelong interest in analyzing Bach's music.
> 
> That can't be said about Telemann's music.


This is not an accurate statement at all. If you look at recent (last 20-40 years) of musicology research there has been a huge amount of interest in not just Telemann but also in other composers like Graupner, Zelenka, Stölzel, Fasch who were, like Bach, highly original and extremely productive (e.g. Stölzel and Graupner wrote many more cantatas than Bach did) but who, mainly for non-musical reasons, did not enjoy a revival in the 19th century. Please, no discussion here of who thinks who is better (impossible to define objectively) but the value brought by studying these composers' work cannot be denied. Indeed, understanding these composers, some of whom had close connections to Bach (especially Zelenka and Telemann) can help place Bach's work in context too.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

> but who, mainly for non-musical reasons, did not enjoy a revival in the 19th century.


What would these non-musical reasons be?


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

If one really listens to the music, he/she will not have the time and motive to say this, rushing to harsh judgement in early music is a typical sign of modern leftist influence. I know it never has been easy for people to respect early music, especially when many people consider music as some kind of secondary science or art. Please, probe into your mind for a few seconds for descencys sake, whether you do consider music as the universal secondary, if you do, just keep silent about your secondary judgements. There is an enough amount of secondary music for people of secondary opinion for music, I strongly advice such people to stay out of early music, go enjoy modernist and leftist "classical" or some lame rock and rap.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Ariasexta said:


> If one really listens to the music, he/she will not have the time and motive to say this, rushing to harsh judgement in early music is a typical sign of modern leftist influence. I know it never has been easy for people to respect early music, especially when many people consider music as some kind of secondary science or art. Please, probe into your mind for a few seconds for descencys sake, whether you do consider music as the universal secondary, if you do, just keep silent about your secondary judgements. There is an enough amount of secondary music for people of secondary opinion for music, I strongly advice such people to stay out of early music, go enjoy modernist and *leftist "classical"* or some lame rock and rap.


Could you direct me to some works of Leftist Classical Music?


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

If you really want to enjoy Baroque or JS Bach, you really need to get out of your mind the opinion about music that because it is simple, a kind of entertainment so it is less than literature and mathematics and so on, all the music you need for this secondary need is abundant in our age, so much it should make early music inaccessible to people who should apply to the secondary music.

Lastly, I will tell everybody a secret: untill you have learn to respect music, you can not truly start to enjoy JS Bach and all early music. It takes a long time and a lot of effort to regain the proper taste for them(at least for me). But once arrived within such a realm of appreciation, you will find any comparison is so stupid, this realm is a whole secret palace for you, you will not want to explain anymore about your feelings and revelations. Due Respect is always requisit for such kind of music untill the end of the world, not only that music is not secondary to anything, but deadly serious and beyond death. No enough words can truly impart the greatness of music, nor I want to explain it throughout. So, it is up to everyones experiences, but harsh judgement will only ruin your own experience.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

Phil loves classical said:


> Could you direct me to some works of Leftist Classical Music?


I am tended to practise the long-standing hypocrisy of indirect criticism of critics, I can give a definite category: being atheist, overtly-political, commercial at the same time is the worst musicians. Though there are only several names of this kind in my mind, a tiny minority but enough for an alert. Majority of composers today is probably fine, I do not mean to denigrate them all.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

*The musical world is great, deserves for exploration more than the physical universe, explore it throughout our history!! All of written history is full of lies, but music is not. *


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

*JS Bach is Jupiter, but none of the stars less bright is unnecessary, and our faith is the Sun which leads our way, our happiness is the moon, which rewards our dedication; and the ocean is our history, where our past, present, and future lay, dance, surge. You will find a whole new universe as endless and rich as the observable universe in music. * *If I shall go to the stars, only music can take me there, I do not trust rockets and other technologies as my vessel to the heaven or even hell. If music does not take me anywhere, then the present is the heaven and hell, I will not leave forever. In music I trust. *


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Phil loves classical said:


> Could you direct me to some works of Leftist Classical Music?


Christianity is very left wing in its strong suggestions to give up all your money for the poor and disadvantaged. Bach's thinking was full of Christian stories so I guess his music was leftist.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Luchesi said:


> Christianity is very left wing in its strong suggestions to give up all your money for the poor and disadvantaged. Bach's thinking was full of Christian stories so I guess his music was leftist.


Are you refering to the rich man and Jesus - Matthew 19, Mark 10 and Luke 18?


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

janxharris said:


> Are you refering to the rich man and Jesus - Matthew 19, Mark 10 and Luke 18?


According to what's written, if you're rich it's impossible for you to enter the kingdom of God (whatever you surmise that to be).


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Ariasexta said:


> *JS Bach is Jupiter, but none of the stars less bright is unnecessary, and our faith is the Sun which leads our way, our happiness is the moon, which rewards our dedication; and the ocean is our history, where our past, present, and future lay, dance, surge. You will find a whole new universe as endless and rich as the observable universe in music. * *If I shall go to the stars, only music can take me there, I do not trust rockets and other technologies as my vessel to the heaven or even hell. If music does not take me anywhere, then the present is the heaven and hell, I will not leave forever. In music I trust. *


Any interest in coming back to Planet Earth?


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Luchesi said:


> According to what's written, if you're rich it's impossible for you to enter the kingdom of God (whatever you surmise that to be).


I think Jesus (in that passage at least) was specifically addressing the individual concerned. As it says elsewhere (Timothy I think) - it's the _love_ of money that's the issue (ie root of all evil).


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

Bulldog said:


> Any interest in coming back to Planet Earth?


The whole starry sky can only be seen on planet Earth. Why not?


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

OK, I always refrain from commenting on composers, but I might leave some hint. I have listened to baroque for 17 years now, so Come on, I am not going to write a guilty confession about my 17 years of private experiences. Many of you just starting since these 1-2 years. Listen, comment less, or write about your feelings in private journals and note books. Talk untill your ideas are ripe.

(I just found that writing ideas in private notebook a fabulous thing to do, not about daily matters or life, but about inspirations, ideas, fragmental thoughts about everything: music, art, science, politics, religion, memories anything you can think about.):tiphat:


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Ariasexta said:


> The whole starry sky can only be seen on planet Earth. Why not?


Why do you think that? Or is it just a philosophical witticism?


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