# Is this the most radical baroque piece?



## arnerich (Aug 19, 2016)

It's a ballet by baroque composer Jean-Féry Rebel called "Les Elemens" (the elements). Have you heard of it? I was completely blown away by this piece and I want to share it with you. It begins almost like Stravinsky and it was composed in 1737! The first movement is a representation of chaos, it sounds modern even today. Granted only the first movement is dissonant, the rest of the ballet is pretty standard baroque fare. But it makes me wonder whether there are any other groundbreaking outlier pieces lurking in or before the baroque era, do you know any?


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

wow! amazing! never heard it.

it reminded me of 92nd haydn symphony, first bars are almost like late romantic 

But this one is definitely radical , that's why between Baroque and 20th century music there always have been a strong connection.


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## Genoveva (Nov 9, 2010)

I agree that it's pretty radical, not what someone new to baroque music might expect. It's a work that is definitely worth acquiring. The version I have is by Le Concert des Nations.


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## micro (Jun 18, 2016)

What kind of sorcery was this? Are you sure this was like the original piece? I also thought that Tartini's Devil sonata was much more advanced than its era. But unfortunately later I learned that the current version we listen to has little to do with the original version.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

I agree, the piece does stand out, but I don't know if "radical" or "groundbreaking" are quite the right words. It's just different from the norm because it's trying to depict something that's different from the norm. There's no suggestion that this is a way forward for music generally, which is what I'd associated "groundbreaking" with. In fact, in his description of the work, Rebel says that he uses "some widely accepted conventions".

This from the sleeve notes to the Palladian Ensemble's recording, on the Linn website:
The introduction to this work is Chaos itself; that confusion which reigned among the Elements before the moment when, subject to immutable laws, they assumed their prescribed places within the natural order. This initial idea led me somewhat further. I have dared to link the idea of the confusion of the Elements with that of confusion in Harmony. I have risked opening with all the notes sounding together, or rather, all the notes in an octave played as a single sound. To designate, in this confusion, each particular element, I have availed myself of some widely accepted conventions. The bass expresses Earth by tied notes which are played jerkily. The flutes, with their rising and falling line, imitate the flow and murmur of Water. Air is depicted by pauses followed by cadenzas on the small flutes, and finally the violins, with their liveliness and brilliance represent the activity of Fire. These characteristics may be recognized, separate or intermingled, in whole or in part, in the diverse reprises that I have called Chaos, and which mark the efforts of the Elements to get free of each other. At the 7th appearance of Chaos these efforts diminish as order begins to assert itself...

I think perhaps "novelty" might be a better word. But yeah, a very impressive piece.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

It's a wonderful piece and when I first heard it I thought 'how modern'. I even started a thread on pieces of music that were 'out of their time'.
http://www.talkclassical.com/23882-composers-who-leap-out.html?highlight=

But on mature reflection, I have changed my mind a little - partly from discovering other radical baroque composers such as Biber in his 'dissonant' Battalia & use of cross-stringing and mimicry in his Rosary Sonatas, and Pandolfi Mealli in his experiments with violin sounds. The other reason is that the idea of chaos and the elements is a very traditional idea, found in Elizabethan poetry for example (Sir John Davies: _Orchestra_), so paradoxically the attempt to embody this idea could be seen as orthodox as well as radical.

None of this detracts from the striking beauty of Rebel's work. :tiphat:


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Ingélou said:


> It's a wonderful piece and when I first heard it I thought 'how modern'. I even started a thread on pieces of music that were 'out of their time'.
> 
> But on mature reflection, I have changed my mind a little - partly from discovering other radical baroque composers such as Biber in his 'dissonant' Battalia & use of cross-stringing and mimicry in his Rosary Sonatas, and Pandolfi Mealli in his experiments with violin sounds. The other reason is that the idea of chaos and the elements is a very traditional idea, found in Elizabethan poetry for example (Sir John Davies: _Orchestra_), so paradoxically the attempt to embody this idea could be seen as orthodox as well as radical.
> 
> None of this detracts from the striking beauty of Rebel's work. :tiphat:


This seems correct to me.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

micro said:


> What kind of sorcery was this? Are you sure this was like the original piece? I also thought that Tartini's Devil sonata was much more advanced than its era. But unfortunately later I learned that the current version we listen to has little to do with the original version.


Can you provide a link with the original performance, please, I am so curious how that sounds?


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## micro (Jun 18, 2016)

Pugg said:


> Can you provide a link with the original performance, please, I am so curious how that sounds?


I don't know anything about the original one. I just knew from a popular facebook page that the version we know was actually done by a popular violinist called Fritz Kreisler.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

micro said:


> I don't know anything about the original one. I just knew from a popular facebook page that the version we know was actually done by a popular violinist called Fritz Kreisler.


Sorry, misunderstanding then.


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## bz3 (Oct 15, 2015)

micro said:


> What kind of sorcery was this? Are you sure this was like the original piece? I also thought that Tartini's Devil sonata was much more advanced than its era. But unfortunately later I learned that the current version we listen to has little to do with the original version.


I have never heard this about the Devil's Trill, just that he wrote a cadenza for it. I know many violinists play some sort of arrangement with a piano, while the original is written for solo violin. Do you mean he wrote the arrangement for violin and piano? In any case, my favorite version is Manze's, which does not have an accompaniment. An astounding work!


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## Marinera (May 13, 2016)

There was another thread started a little awhile ago by deprofundis where Rebel's les Elemens were mentioned, so that's where I got aquainted with this piece. Goebel, Savall and someone else, but I cannot remember who now, have performances recorded on cds, though Goebel's is available in box-set only, so I'm still vacillating which one to acquire.

I will just mention a few albums I listened to lately that left an impression on me.





















Minkowski's Rameau album _Une symphonie imaginaire _ basically all the best bits arranged and performed as a symphony. Rameau had never written one so there's why 'imaginary', novel concept, extremely interesting and I like his Dance des Sauvages here too, very well played. 
Il Giardino La Passione. 3 symphonies (no 39. -tempesta di mare, no1, no49 ) by Haydn and Gluck's ballet Don Juan ou le festin de pierre, never heard it before. Very good selection, atmospheric.
Another Il giardino album Casa del Diavolo has some fantastic pieces I haven't heard before by C.P.E. Bach, W.F. Bach, additionaly Locatelli's concerto grosso op7 no6 and dance of the furies from Don Juan by Gluck, see bellow


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Marinera said:


> I will just mention a few albums I listened to lately that left an impression on me.
> 
> View attachment 88522
> View attachment 88521
> ...


I've not heard the Haydn album, but I concur that the other two are really impressive.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

I'll nominate Pancrace Royer's insane "Vertigo":


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## Heliogabo (Dec 29, 2014)

I was blew away when I discovered this piece too. This lead me to explore more use of dissonance in baroque composition. Biber' s Battalia mentioned and some Forqueray's stuff are other works that seems ahead of their time in this sense. 
As for the Rebel' s elements I like a lot Hogwood' s rendition.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I nominate the Bach violin chaconne.


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## micro (Jun 18, 2016)

bz3 said:


> I have never heard this about the Devil's Trill, just that he wrote a cadenza for it. I know many violinists play some sort of arrangement with a piano, while the original is written for solo violin. Do you mean he wrote the arrangement for violin and piano? In any case, my favorite version is Manze's, which does not have an accompaniment. An astounding work!


Actually this info I learned from just a comment from someone on the famous facebook page "ClassicalMusicOnly", the page posted this popular recording with orchestra. That guy commented that this version has little to do with the original one. Maybe he just meant the orchestra interpretation but the original structure was original.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

More happened in the baroque era than most people know of. This is a great piece. Not necessarily radical, because it wasn't followed on. The composer's name would appear fitting though. Really skilled composer who probably enjoyed writing what he did!


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Well, I'm not sure how many other ways there might have been to depict chaos using the musical customs of the era. It's startling no doubt, but I would think if Vivaldi decided he needed to depict chaos, it might sound similar.


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## Alfacharger (Dec 6, 2013)

MarkW said:


> Well, I'm not sure how many other ways there might have been to depict chaos using the musical customs of the era. It's startling no doubt, but I would think if Vivaldi decided he needed to depict chaos, it might sound similar.


You are absolutely right!


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

I have listened to this wonderful piece before. It's yet another example of a composer painting emotions with music, that music can be made to sound like emotions. A great piece from French Baroque.


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## bioluminescentsquid (Jul 22, 2016)

How about a droll little motet full of enharmonicity? A true Perla Barocca!


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

MarkW said:


> Well, I'm not sure how many other ways there might have been to depict chaos using the musical customs of the era. It's startling no doubt, but I would think if Vivaldi decided he needed to depict chaos, it might sound similar.


Yep. There are a number of other instances of Baroque composers striving to depict things. Even Karl Ditters von Dittersdorf of the late 18th century, does some quirky things in his Ovid Symphonies. People act like 'impressionism' was a new thing! Debussy was new himself, but older composers had a grasp of these things and sometimes really went for it.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

clavichorder said:


> Yep. There are a number of other instances of Baroque composers striving to depict things. Even Karl Ditters von Dittersdorf of the late 18th century, does some quirky things in his Ovid Symphonies. People act like 'impressionism' was a new thing! Debussy was new himself, but older composers had a grasp of these things and sometimes really went for it.


Yes, but not chaos.

The Kuhnau bible sonatas are a sort of textbook of expression, but no chaos there.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

As an irrelevant aside, I really like the art work on that Gluck bit...


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## arnerich (Aug 19, 2016)

Ingélou said:


> But on mature reflection, I have changed my mind a little - partly from discovering other radical baroque composers such as Biber in his 'dissonant' Battalia & use of cross-stringing and mimicry in his Rosary Sonatas, and Pandolfi Mealli in his experiments with violin sounds.


Wow, never heard of this guy! Very interesting stuff, thanks for posting!


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Before the Baroque era: Carlo Gesualdo. Some of it is remarkably "modern sounding" (whatever exactly that means. .


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

arnerich said:


> It begins almost like Stravinsky and it was composed in 1737!


"Almost" being the key word in your desription. Rhythmically speaking it's no where near Stravinsky. But the opening blast of dissonant strings is a shock and delight. After that it's just a lot of sawing away. A rusty sewing machine.


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## Guest (Sep 7, 2016)

brianvds said:


> Before the Baroque era: Carlo Gesualdo. Some of it is remarkably "modern sounding" (whatever exactly that means. .


O vos omnes,beautiful piece.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

This piece is quite radical. It's a concerto by the great Telemann.


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## bioluminescentsquid (Jul 22, 2016)

How about Biber's Sonata Representiva?


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Yes that's quite radical by Biber too.


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