# Classical pieces with a 'definitive' performance?



## Queequeg

What works are there, whether a symphony, concerto, etc with one performance and interpretation generally regarded as the standard to judge all others? The only ones I can think of are Kleiber for Beethoven's 5th and 7th and Jacqueline du Pré for the Elgar Cello Concerto.

Maybe Glenn Gould's performance of the Goldberg Variations as well?


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## PetrB

The matter is still, regardless of some times a very wide consensus, a subjective one


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## shadowdancer

Queequeg said:


> What works are there, whether a symphony, concerto, etc with one performance and interpretation generally regarded as the standard to judge all others? The only ones I can think of are Kleiber for Beethoven's 5th and 7th and Jacqueline du Pré for the Elgar Cello Concerto.
> Maybe Glenn Gould's performance of the Goldberg Variations as well?


In my opinion, such term "definitive" will never exist. That is the reason why listening to every kind of music is a lot of fun. You always have something unknown, something new to discover. I really hope that this remains forever.


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## Couac Addict

[insert obscure, unique Naxos recording here]


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## Headphone Hermit

Nah! 

Like asking for agreement about the best goalkeeper ever - there isn't such a consensus for many works. For instance, you and I disagree about the performances of two of the items you listed in the OP :tiphat:


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## StlukesguildOhio

The term "definitive" seems to suggest an interpretation that is not only the "best"... but also presents what is essentially the ultimate or last word on a given work of music. No recording... however "essential" we might think it is... can possibly convey everything that there is to be found in a given work of music. As fine as Glenn Gould's recording of the _Goldberg Variations_ is (for example) there are many fine insights and approaches to interpretation to be found in the recordings of Andras Schiff, Angela Hewwitt, Rosalyn Tureck, Wanda Landowska, Murray Perahia, Andreas Staier, Trevor Pinnock, even the Jacques Loussier Trio that Gould didn't even touch upon. Even within Gould's own oeuvre one might question what in the "definitive" recording... the one made in 1955, or the one made in 1981?


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## Marschallin Blair

StlukesguildOhio said:


> The term "definitive" seems to suggest an interpretation that is not only the "best"... but also presents what is essentially the ultimate or last word on a given work of music. No recording... however "essential" we might think it is... can possibly convey everything that there is to be found in a given work of music. As fine as Glenn Gould's recording of the _Goldberg Variations_ is (for example) there are many fine insights and approaches to interpretation to be found in the recordings of Andras Schiff, Angela Hewwitt, Rosalyn Tureck, Wanda Landowska, Murray Perahia, Andreas Staier, Trevor Pinnock, even the Jacques Loussier Trio that Gould didn't even touch upon. Even within Gould's own oeuvre one might question what in the "definitive" recording... the one made in 1955, or the one made in 1981?


Platonic Forms don't exist, only Aristotelian 'essentials'--- like, for instance, all things 'Vintage Callas.'


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## Manxfeeder

I've been collecting long enough to have discovered that I have definitive recordings which have been supplemented by newer definitive recordings. It keeps me on my toes.


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## Marschallin Blair

Manxfeeder said:


> I've been collecting long enough to have discovered that I have definitive recordings which have been supplemented by newer definitive recordings. It keeps me on my toes.


It a ravaging addiction that never ends.

. . . or an infinite candy store.

Depending on how you look at it.


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## StlukesguildOhio

I've been collecting long enough to have discovered that I have definitive recordings which have been supplemented by newer definitive recordings. It keeps me on my toes.

I've found it just as likely that it is an older "definitive" recording that supplements a newer "definitive" recording.


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## Marschallin Blair

StlukesguildOhio said:


> I've been collecting long enough to have discovered that I have definitive recordings which have been supplemented by newer definitive recordings. It keeps me on my toes.
> 
> I've found it just as likely that it is an older "definitive" recording that supplements a newer "definitive" recording.


Cheers.

Yeah, where are the Callases, Janowitzes, Nilssons, Bakers, Schwarzkopfs, Ponselles, Grummers, Popps, Teytes, De Los Angeleses, and Lehmann's of_ today_?


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## Mahlerian

Marschallin Blair said:


> Cheers.
> 
> Yeah, where are the Callases, Janowitzes, Nilssons, Bakers, Schwarzkopfs, Ponselles, Grummers, Popps, Teytes, De Los Angeleses, and Lehmann's of_ today_?


Waiting for a later generation to canonize them with rose-tinted glasses, no doubt.


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## Woodduck

Queequeg said:


> What works are there, whether a symphony, concerto, etc with one performance and interpretation generally regarded as the standard to judge all others? The only ones I can think of are Kleiber for Beethoven's 5th and 7th and Jacqueline du Pré for the Elgar Cello Concerto.
> 
> Maybe Glenn Gould's performance of the Goldberg Variations as well?


You'd get arguments about all those. Properly so.

We hear a performance that satisfies us at the time of hearing, and we think: "That's how the piece should sound." Then, a year or a decade later, we hear another powerful performance of the work that presents a different concept of it such as we'd never imagined, and the earlier performance becomes for us just one good way of doing it.

A musical composition doesn't fully exist until it's performed. The notes on the page are just the blueprint for the building. Composers know this and expect different performances to bring out different aspects of their works. Regardless of what they heard in their heads while writing down the notes, they are often surprised, and often pleased, by what their interpreters find in them. Some interpretations are clearly wrong, but the range of what can be right is pretty wide.

I have favorite recordings of certain works. But, far from thinking they're the final word, I consider them a challenge to some other interpreter to do something different that might dislodge them from first place in my affections. "Definitiveness" only kills the adventure of listening.


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## Manxfeeder

StlukesguildOhio said:


> I've been collecting long enough to have discovered that I have definitive recordings which have been supplemented by newer definitive recordings. It keeps me on my toes.
> 
> I've found it just as likely that it is an older "definitive" recording that supplements a newer "definitive" recording.


Yeah. Just when I got happy with Zinman's Schumann symphonies, this guy named Szell showed up.


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## hpowders

The only one I can think of is Jiminy Cricket singing "When You Wish Upon A Star".

A truly classic rendition, never bettered.


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## StlukesguildOhio

The only one I can think of is Jiminy Cricket singing "When You Wish Upon A Star".

A truly classic rendition, never bettered.

Barbara Hendrick's version isn't half bad.


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## Marschallin Blair

Mahlerian said:


> Waiting for a later generation to canonize them with rose-tinted glasses, no doubt.


But I love my fuscia Chanels!

Anyway, being that I'm only _seventeen_ years old, I can really_ relate_ to the teenagers of today--- because I still _am _one.

Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.

I just want to save them from bad singing.


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## Marschallin Blair

StlukesguildOhio said:


> The only one I can think of is Jiminy Cricket singing "When You Wish Upon A Star".
> 
> A truly classic rendition, never bettered.
> 
> Barbara Hendrick's version isn't half bad.


Is it half-good?


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## PetrB

Marschallin Blair said:


> Is it half-good?


It's not bad for a non-cricket singer, that's all.


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## arpeggio

*Definative Recordings*

For all of the established works single definitive recordings do not exist.

The idea of definitive recordings is a marketing ploy created by the classical music industry.

The following article in the Guardian discusses this: http://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2014/aug/06/classical-music-recording-industry-paul-morley

For example, according the Arkive Music are a currently available 330 recordings of Beethoven's _Fifth Symphony_. Over a hundred are recommended. I am sure one can find an excellent recording or two for their library among these suggestions.

I found several highly rated recordings at Classics Today.

I have discussed my experiences with multiple recordings in the following post: http://www.talkclassical.com/33829-multiple-recordings-same-symphony-7.html#post716294


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## Tsaraslondon

Marschallin Blair said:


> Is it half-good?


Barbara Cook is better


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## Marschallin Blair

PetrB said:


> It's not bad for a non-cricket singer, that's all.


. . . and not good for a worthy-of-Strauss one.


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## PetrB

Marschallin Blair said:


> . . . and not good for a worthy-of-Strauss one.


Wasn't Strauss half-cricket? Oh well, there are no "definitive" performances of anything, though individuals and marketing departments selling recordings would have it so.

How can they be defiitive? -- they're studio recordings or a recording of but one live performance -- the idea is "ideal" and patently naïve.


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## Marschallin Blair

PetrB said:


> Wasn't Strauss half-cricket? Oh well, there are no "definitive" performances of anything, though individuals and marketing departments selling recordings would have it so.
> 
> How can they be defiitive? -- they're studio recordings or a recording of but one live performance -- the idea is "ideal" and patently naïve.


No, but I do believe his detractors are half-donkey. . . okay, 'full-donkey.'


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## PetrB

Marschallin Blair said:


> No, but I do believe his detractors are half-donkey. . . okay, 'full-donkey.'


Color me Donkey, then


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## Wicked_one

What if the composer plays his piece and recorded? For example, Rachmaninoff playing his piano concerto. Can it get more "definitive" than that?


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## JACE

I agree 100% with what everyone has said about the term "definitive." It sticks in the craw. Like Headphone Hermit, I'm not really a fan of Kleiber's recording of Beethoven Fifth and Seventh that the OP gave as one of his examples.

That said, it is helpful and fun to discuss the recordings that have achieved some sort of consensus as "classic" -- or maybe even "essential" -- even if they aren't "definitive."

If we take that less restrictive tack, then I really _do_ need to hear Kleiber's Beethoven -- if only because so many people think so highly of it. Heck, maybe hearing Kleiber's Beethoven clarified what I like more about other conductors' approaches.

What do you think? Can we re-focus on works that are very *widely-regarded as superb* or somehow *extra special*?

Those terms are easier to swallow, no?


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## Marschallin Blair

PetrB said:


> Color me Donkey, then


I'll color you 'Bad.'

Now go and stand in the corner._ ;D_


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## JACE

Wicked_one said:


> What if the composer plays his piece and recorded? For example, Rachmaninoff playing his piano concerto. Can it get more "definitive" than that?


I wouldn't call Rachmaninov's own performances _definitive_. Otherwise, why should anyone else ever go to the effort of recording them?

But I do think they meet the criteria of "classic" or "extra special" -- much like Ives' own recording of "The Alcotts" or DSCH's various Preludes & Fugues.


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## Headphone Hermit

JACE said:


> I agree 100% with what everyone has said about the term "definitive." It sticks in the craw. *Like Headphone Hermit*, I'm not really a fan of Kleiber's recording of Beethoven Fifth and Seventh that the OP gave as one of his examples.


Whoa, there a moment, Solider! You *don't* think the same as me on this one 

I *would* say Kleiber delivered definitive performances, but not the other two - That demonstrates my point very clearly about the difficulty of ensuring agreement on what is 'definitive' :tiphat:


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## Headphone Hermit

JACE said:


> I wouldn't call Rachmaninov's own performances _definitive_. Otherwise, why should anyone else ever go to the effort of recording them?
> 
> But I do think they meet the criteria of "classic" or "extra special" -- much like Ives' own recording of "The Alcotts" or DSCH's various Preludes & Fugues.


Agree with your view on Rachmaninov. Disagree with your view of Shostakovich's Preludes and Fugues


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## JACE

Headphone Hermit said:


> Whoa, there a moment, Solider! You *don't* think the same as me on this one
> 
> I *would* say Kleiber delivered definitive performances, but not the other two - That demonstrates my point very clearly about the difficulty of ensuring agreement on what is 'definitive' :tiphat:


Doh! I guess I misspoke! Forgive me, sir! 

But we do agree on the larger point!!!


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## Headphone Hermit

^^^ No offence taken, Squire

Indeed we do agree on the larger point :tiphat:


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## JACE

Headphone Hermit said:


> Agree with your view on Rachmaninov. Disagree with your view of Shostakovich's Preludes and Fugues


Aw, I bet you wouldn't want to give up Richter's recordings of the Preludes & Fugues... or Ashkenazy's... or Nikolaevna's... Or Melnikov's... Or whoever else floats your boat -- EVEN IF DSCH's are your FAVORITES.


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## Headphone Hermit

JACE said:


> Aw, I bet you wouldn't want to give up Richter's recordings of the Preludes & Fugues... or Ashkenazy's... or Nikolaevna's... Or Melnikov's... Or whoever else floats your boat -- EVEN IF DSCH's are your FAVORITES.


If pressed, I might possibly go for Tatiana Nikolayeva as being the definitive performer but .... I' ve got *two* versions of Nikolayeva's ... and I can't even decide which of those is 'definitive' 

I think that you and I have given definitive answers on this topic :lol:


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## JACE

I would say that *Arthur Rubinstein's recordings of Chopin's Nocturnes* are widely-regarded as extraordinary. Quite a bit of consensus there.

I would say that *Ivan Moravec's recordings of Chopin's Nocturnes* are widely-regarded as extraordinary. Quite a bit of consensus there too.

I wouldn't want to be without either.

But neither are definitive!


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## Figleaf

hpowders said:


> The only one I can think of is Jiminy Cricket singing "When You Wish Upon A Star".
> 
> A truly classic rendition, never bettered.


I have a soft spot for Al Bowlly:


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## bharbeke

For someone unfamiliar with a piece, it is useful to recommend one or two recordings that are good renditions with strong general appeal. Beyond that, it is better to describe what a recording's distinguishing features are (HIP or not, brass performance is top-notch, tempos, etc.).

I would rather have something described as "frequently recommended" than "definitive."


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## Vaneyes

Publications can be scurrilous in recommending definitive recordings. Continuation of legendary knee-jerks, writer biases, advertiser influence, payola schemes, etc., etc.

I think it can be useful to cross-check some of these claims before wasting one's time and/or money. And of course, adhere to the ear.:tiphat:


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## michaels

"Definitive" is definitely the wrong word 

But it would seem to me that, like the "Classical Music Project", I would be sure to relish in a similar project for specific recordings.

I also like the way the BBC Radio 3 "CD Review" does the suggested recordings of a work starting with the "First Choice", but they also often select a historical recording as well, other times a HIP recording (sometimes as the first choice). They have a CD Review newsletter, a BBC Music podcast that's available internationally, and a PDF file of the archives of selections from past years.

The problem with the BBC is that it is quite UK centric for obvious and understandable reasons. It's not often you'll see american conductors and there's a heavy sway in terms of the works reviewed that are British as well. That said, it's the closest thing I've found to what I think the OP is looking for. The frustrating thing to me is that the discussions around the choices are the most enlightening and are typically unavailable shortly after the review, and even then, only to listeners in the UK (unless you've got a work around like I have).

I personally would _love_ to see a project similar to the Classical Music Project, the Classical Recording Project maybe? Something that reflects the community here rather then the industry selections would be of great interest IMHO.


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## Vaneyes

michaels said:


> "Definitive" is definitely the wrong word
> 
> But it would seem to me that, like the "Classical Music Project", I would be sure to relish in a similar project for specific recordings.
> 
> I also like the way the BBC Radio 3 "CD Review" does the suggested recordings of a work starting with the "First Choice", but they also often select a historical recording as well, other times a HIP recording (sometimes as the first choice). They have a CD Review newsletter, a BBC Music podcast that's available internationally, and a PDF file of the archives of selections from past years.
> 
> The problem with the BBC is that it is quite UK centric for obvious and understandable reasons. *It's not often you'll see american conductors and there's a heavy sway in terms of the works reviewed that are British as well.* That said, it's the closest thing I've found to what I think the OP is looking for. The frustrating thing to me is that the discussions around the choices are the most enlightening and are typically unavailable shortly after the review, and even then, only to listeners in the UK (unless you've got a work around like I have).
> 
> I personally would _love_ to see a project similar to the Classical Music Project, the Classical Recording Project maybe? Something that reflects the community here rather then the industry selections would be of great interest IMHO.


Anything you find useful, go for it. Just be wary of websites or magazines pushing an agenda. My eyebrows often get extra workouts reading Gramophone reviews from the last twenty years or so, or BBC 3's "Building a Library", or the new darling on the block, BBC Music Magazine.

Re TC projects for recordings, I can't speak for all, but I think it might be over-reaching to get an answer that might/could be reasonably handled with a few Googlings.

Re TC archives, I've followed a suggestion by TC members to use Google rather than TC's "advanced search". For instance, Google something like "Talk Classical plus the name of the composer and work".

For something more current, TC's "Current Listening" thread may be the place. Or exchanges on "Latest Purchases".

Finally, a consensus for a work may not be helpful, no matter where you look. Again, first and foremost, adhere to the ear.:tiphat:


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## michaels

Vaneyes said:


> Anything you find useful, go for it. Just be wary of websites or magazines pushing an agenda. My eyebrows often get extra workouts reading Gramophone reviews from the last twenty years or so, or BBC 3's "Building a Library", or the new darling on the block, BBC Music Magazine.
> 
> Finally, a consensus for a work may not be helpful, no matter where you look. Again, first and foremost, adhere to the ear.:tiphat:


Definitely agree. But I must say I have yet to find something that is truly bad or disappointing.

WRT finding a good performance, I find the feedback and opinions here _much_ better then google, then Spotify is my friend to confirm it personally where possible. Finding a truly great recording and performance is a log more difficult (and highly personal, I realize).

I frankly love following and contributing to the "Currently Listening" thread; I think that's the closest I've come and what kept me coming back here initially when I found (via google :tiphat.


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## bigshot

Vaneyes said:


> Anything you find useful, go for it. Just be wary of websites or magazines pushing an agenda.


I actually kind of prefer that, because if an agenda is visible, I know where they're coming from. I like it when the reviewer signs his name to a review. Then I can put a name to the particular preferences and know what weight to put on particular comments. For instance I got the David Hall Record Book and read it from cover to cover. When I was done, I went back and used it for reference. But I knew that I would agree with his opinion on Beethoven piano works and knew I wouldn't agree with his take on Tchaikovsky orchestral pieces. His bias was consistent enough for me to draw a bead on.

On the internet, that is impossible, because most people in discussion forums like this don't come up with their own opinions. They cobble them together from a dozen or more different sources. It's like trying to describe the color of a chameleon.


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## tdc

Like others have suggested I don't think there are ever "definitive" recordings. For what are arguably the greatest recordings currently available for a given work (for example Jordi Savall's recording of F Couperin - _Les Concerts Royaux_) I prefer the term "benchmark".


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## Blancrocher

Vaneyes said:


> Finally, a consensus for a work may not be helpful, no matter where you look. Again, first and foremost, adhere to the ear.:tiphat:


Though it's an obvious point, I'll add that this is easier to do than it used to be. With spotify and youtube making so much available, I generally prefer not to rely very much on reviews (the exception being those from the TC community). In addition to being able to hear things, moreover, they're very helpful for helping one find out about what exists. I "subscribe" to quite a few youtube pages that specialize in rare and new repertoire, and "follow" thousands of composers and artists on spotify, so I've got a pretty continuous stream of notifications that I can follow up on when I'm curious and in the mood. Mentions in "Current Listening" and elsewhere on the forum tend to bump bookmarked items to the top of my list.

That said, to the OP: Aimard's Vingt Regards!


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