# Round Four: Mon Coeur S'ouvre a ta Voix. Troyanos, Verrett



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Last contestants before Callas. Please remember to listen to all of the Dawn Duets before next week.


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Verrett, her voice quality, her legato, her diction.in this recording ... magical. She gives the aria both a sinuousness and sensuousness.


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## damianjb1 (Jan 1, 2016)

This is my favourite Verrett performance of this aria.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Verrett...

From the synopsis - In an attempt to close the trap which she has set for Samson, Dalila tells Samson seductively that she will surrender herself entirely to him if he wants her. She begs him to respond to her caresses, hoping that he will finally forget about the Israelite rebellion he is leading against the Philistines. If Samson concentrates completely on her, the High Priest of Dagon may be able to capture him.

I can kind of see myself forgetting about the Israelite rebellion that I was leading against the Philistines and getting caught by the High Priest of Dagon more readily by listening to Verrett than Troyanos


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

I voted for Troyanos because it was an effect of a pleasant surprise. I knew the aria before with Verrett but not with Troyanos. I even ignored my issues with the speeding up on this aria. (But seriously, why do the conductors do that ? It a similar capital sin like speeding up Bellini).


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I prefer Troyanos here because I find her voice so sensuous, though her singing occludes some of the words. Verrett’s more slender sound helps her make the words clearer at the cost of that sensuality. I think she lost some of that mezzoish tint when she switched to soprano roles.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

MAS said:


> i prefer Troyanos here because I find her voice so sensuous, though it occludes some of the words. Verrett’s more slender sound helps her make the words clearer at the cost of that sensuality. I think she lost some of that mezzoish tint when she switched to soprano roles.


In that case, I suggest an earlier version. If I know a better version of an aria sung by the same person than the one posted in a competition, I generally make my decision based on that. In this instance, I find Verrett to possess a richer voice, more sensuous singing and overall better technique (imo, she also looked the part. very beautiful in an understated way).


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> In that case, I suggest an earlier version. If I know a better version of an aria sung by the same person than the one posted in a competition, I generally make my decision based on that. In this instance, I find Verrett to possess a richer voice, more sensuous singing and overall better technique (imo, she also looked the part. very beautiful in an understated way).


I switched the Verrett selection once based on Damian's suggestion early enough in the competition before anyone else had voted. Too late now. Sorry. These contests are just too extensive ( I have hundreds waiting in the wings) to always find the ultimate performance of every performer. With Callas i have the good sense to check with one of my Callas experts for her ultimate examples but for someone like Verrett, I really don't know who in our crowd has a specialized knowledge of her recordings. I do know that with her earlier is better but dates are rarely given for Youtube videos. Personally I like her voice best before she switched to including soprano roles in her repertoire as she lost the plush quality in the lower and middle voice. She had a very distinctive sound as a mezzo and I thought her voice became more generic sounding when she pushed it upwards.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Both of these are preferable, I think to those we have heard before. They avoid the trap of sounding matronly or maternal, but for me only Verrett gives us the danger lurking beneath. It's there in both versions above, but I actually prefer the later one, which is from legendary performances at Covent Garden. True the voice has thinned out a bit, but here in a fully staged performance she completely inhabits and realises the character. Verrett is one my favourite Dalilas.

Mind you, I'm still waiting for someone to sing what Saint=Saëns wrote. We haven't heard it yet.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Both of these are preferable, I think to those we have heard before.


The words of wisdom !


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## damianjb1 (Jan 1, 2016)

How about this? This is my favourite.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

damianjb1 said:


> How about this? This is my favourite.


My problem with this recording is, that sometimes I don't hear the instruments as clearly as I would like to. But there must be more recodings with Borodina as Dalila.

I also like Elina Garanca a lot.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I switched the Verrett selection once based on Damian's suggestion early enough in the competition before anyone else had voted. Too late now. Sorry. These contests are just too extensive ( I have hundreds waiting in the wings) to always find the ultimate performance of every performer. With Callas i have the good sense to check with one of my Callas experts for her ultimate examples but for someone like Verrett, I really don't know who in our crowd has a specialized knowledge of her recordings. I do know that with her earlier is better but dates are rarely given for Youtube videos. Personally I like her voice best before she switched to including soprano roles in her repertoire as she lost the plush quality in the lower and middle voice. She had a very distinctive sound as a mezzo and I thought her voice became more generic sounding when she pushed it upwards.


You have nothing to apologize for. I can't expect people to sift through every recording of my favorite singers to find the best example,


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

damianjb1 said:


> How about this? This is my favourite.


Borodina has an absolutely gorgeous voice, but I still don't get any danger from her. I used to have the Davis recording with her and Cura, but I got rid of it in favour of Davis's earlier recording with Baltsa and Carreras.

What is all that silliness with the red silk at the beginning, by the way, and why are they so far apart? She's clutching the silk like a baby to her breast. I find the Vickers/Verrett staging far more convincing.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

It's been years since I last heard Troyanos. I'd forgotten what a beautiful voice she had. Her seduction of Samson should go well based on this performance, although given the feeble sound of this tenor I don't know why she'd bother.

The Verrett/Vickers performance is frustrating in that both singers sound past their best. That final high Bb from Vickers is excruciating, and completely shatters the mood Verrett has created. But she gets more out of this warhorse than anyone I've ever heard and really brings the drama to life, vocal imperfections notwithstanding. Despite the lovely singing of Troyanos, I have to give Verrett my vote.

And now I can safely put this faded rose of an aria away for a decade or so (though I suppose if Callas is coming up I'll have to make an exception for her).


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> It's been years since I last heard Troyanos. I'd forgotten what a beautiful voice she had. Her seduction of Samson should go well based on this performance, although given the feeble sound of this tenor I don't know why she'd bother.
> 
> The Verrett/Vickers performance is frustrating in that both singers sound past their best. That final high Bb from Vickers is excruciating, and completely shatters the mood Verrett has created. But she gets more out of this warhorse than anyone I've ever heard and really brings the drama to life, vocal imperfections notwithstanding. Despite the lovely singing of Troyanos, I have to give Verrett my vote.
> 
> And now I can safely put this faded rose of an aria away for a decade or so (though I suppose if Callas is coming up I'll have to make an exception for her).


Vickers' singing became more and more Valsalva as he got older.


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

It is still inconceivable that folks are still carrying on (four rounds and counting) about some of the most *vulgar* and *distasteful* vocal music ever written. Strong words, yes, but someone has to say it.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

ALT said:


> It is still inconceivable that folks are still carrying on (four rounds and counting) about some of the most vulgar and distasteful vocal music ever written. Strong words, yes, *but someone has to say it*.


When we want you to be the one to say it, we'll ask, otherwise, pipe down, pip-squeak...


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

There are very few things that someone has to say. 

I just had to say it.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Vickers' singing became more and more Valsalva as he got older.


The Valsalva maneuver is a medical procedure consisting of forcing breath against a closed glottis for the purpose of altering cardiovascular function. How could his apply to singing?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

damianjb1 said:


> How about this? This is my favourite.


Very beautiful. I heard her in person. Unlike most Russians her voice has aged well. I really like it but I prefer Stignani's sound.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> The Valsalva maneuver is a medical procedure consisting of forcing breath against a closed glottis for the purpose of altering cardiovascular function. How could his apply to singing?


If you'll excuse the crude example, vocalizing via Valsalva technique happens when people groan while taking a bowel movement. Many singers such as Netrebko and Nucci are notorious for it. Vickers got worse with age in this regard.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Verrett is simply untouchable. She's the whole package.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Ooooh! I really like Troyanos here. She's not a mezzo I've listened to much. I like her smokey, sexy tone, this is very good and one of the better ones we've heard. That said, there's something missing, I'm not sure quite what, perhaps there's a lack of individuality in her music making. In any case this is very fine.

Verrett is wonderful in this aria and gives us everything we could possibly want in it. Smooth, sexy, silky lines all couched in that velveteen voice and the lines are both intense and softly lyrical. This is what singing is all about!

Verrett wins!

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> If you'll excuse the crude example, vocalizing via Valsalva technique happens when people groan while taking a bowel movement. Many singers such as Netrebko and Nucci are notorious for it. Vickers got worse with age in this regard.


Do you mean to say that some singers are vocalising whilst sitting on the loo?

No wonder the artform is going to sh!*e!

N.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> The Valsalva maneuver is a medical procedure consisting of forcing breath against a closed glottis for the purpose of altering cardiovascular function. How could his apply to singing?


"The Valsalva maneuver is a medical term. There are two kinds of Valsalva maneuvers. The first is commonly referred to as the bucco-nasal Valsalva. A good example of this is when your ears feel plugged and so you hold your nose closed with your hand and your mouth closed while trying to blow air out. The other Valsalva - the culprit in constricted singing - is the laryngeal Valsalva. This maneuver happens when we lift something heavy, cough, laugh, sneeze, when women give birth, or - excuse the crudeness - when we go to the bathroom. It is the closing of the glottis while forcing air out against it. While this may be good to help us lift a heavy rock, it does not work in singing. In fact, it greatly inhibits the free vibrating ability of the vocal folds."


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> *vocalizing via Valsalva technique happens when people groan while taking a bowel movement.* *Many singers such as Netrebko *and Nucci* are notorious for it.* Vickers got worse with age in this regard.












Trebs?... Trebs?... C'mon... seriously... I'm not kidding... I really have to go... No, I'm not waiting for the high B flat... feck "Casta Diva" - C'mon!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Op.123 said:


> "The Valsalva maneuver is a medical term. There are two kinds of Valsalva maneuvers. The first is commonly referred to as the bucco-nasal Valsalva. A good example of this is when your ears feel plugged and so you hold your nose closed with your hand and your mouth closed while trying to blow air out. The other Valsalva - the culprit in constricted singing - is the laryngeal Valsalva. This maneuver happens when we lift something heavy, cough, laugh, sneeze, when women give birth, or - excuse the crudeness - when we go to the bathroom. It is the closing of the glottis while forcing air out against it. While this may be good to help us lift a heavy rock, it does not work in singing. In fact, it greatly inhibits the free vibrating ability of the vocal folds."


This is in quotes. From what source? It's seems a nice summary, but with respect to singing it raises questions. The Valsalva maneuver is an action performed by the muscles regulating the airways. If the glottis - in other words, the vocal folds (cords) - are closed, there will obviously be a substantial distortion or complete inhibition of vocal function. In other words, if you close the glottis you can't sing. I don't know enough about the anatomy of the muscles involved to know in what way, and to what extent, those muscles can be flexed in the direction of closure while still allowing people to sing complex and wide-ranging operatic music. Nor do I know, on listening to a singer, how we can tell whether the distortions in a voice are the result of that kind of muscular action or of some other physical state such as rigidification of the laryngeal muscles due to overuse, illness or age. Some people may feel confident in attributing, say, Anna Netrebko's wobble to a quasi-Valsalva action - a partial closure of the vocal cords - but I certainly don't, and I'm wondering how others can be sure of their diagnosis without recourse to a larygoscope.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> This is in quotes. From what source? It's seems a nice summary, but with respect to singing it raises questions. The Valsalva maneuver is an action performed by the muscles regulating the airways. If the glottis - in other words, the vocal folds (cords) - are closed, there will obviously be a substantial distortion or complete inhibition of vocal function. In other words, if you close the glottis you can't sing. I don't know enough about the anatomy of the muscles involved to know in what way, and to what extent, those muscles can be flexed in the direction of closure while still allowing people to sing complex and wide-ranging operatic music. Nor do I know, on listening to a singer, how we can tell whether the distortions in a voice are the result of that kind of muscular action or of some other physical state such as rigidification of the laryngeal muscles due to overuse, illness or age. Some people may feel confident in attributing, say, Anna Netrebko's wobble to a quasi-Valsalva action - a partial closure of the vocal cords - but I certainly don't, and I'm wondering how others can be sure of their diagnosis without recourse to a larygoscope.







__





The Valsalva Maneuver


Silver Singing Method; Balancing the Vocal Vectors. The key to true bel canto singing.




www.thesilversingingmethod.com





This is the page I found


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Op.123 said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for that. I've read it and come away still unsure about whether and when audible muscular interference with free vocalization is properly identified with the Valsalva maneuver. Personally, I'm going to go on calling forced or constricted singing simply that, in general recognition of a lack of freedom and ease. This would seem to cover the bases when we can't see what's actually happening in the throat, mouth and jaw.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> This is in quotes. From what source? It's seems a nice summary, but with respect to singing it raises questions. The Valsalva maneuver is an action performed by the muscles regulating the airways. If the glottis - in other words, the vocal folds (cords) - are closed, there will obviously be a substantial distortion or complete inhibition of vocal function. In other words, if you close the glottis you can't sing. I don't know enough about the anatomy of the muscles involved to know in what way, and to what extent, those muscles can be flexed in the direction of closure while still allowing people to sing complex and wide-ranging operatic music. Nor do I know, on listening to a singer, how we can tell whether the distortions in a voice are the result of that kind of muscular action or of some other physical state such as rigidification of the laryngeal muscles due to overuse, illness or age. Some people may feel confident in attributing, say, Anna Netrebko's wobble to a quasi-Valsalva action - a partial closure of the vocal cords - but I certainly don't, and I'm wondering how others can be sure of their diagnosis without recourse to a larygoscope.


I don't think the idea is that these singers are singing with a constant Valsalva maneuver, but that it instead accounts for the sudden lurching sound we hear from them in places. (I'm thinking primarily of Vickers' high note in that Samson. I don't know whether that is what is happening there or whether it's just constriction of the muscle groups attached to the vocal chords. Nucci and Trebs definitely sing with much tension in those muscle groups, whether there are moments where Valsalva happens (and indeed the flow of sound is cut off when these singers give out one of their groans) is a separate thing.

N.


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