# Are there opera singers you avoid whenever possible?



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

When you're choosing an opera recording, are there singers that you avoid on the recording whenever possible?
I know i have some.
What are yours?


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Yes, although I sometimes suffer the singers I don't like because either they are in a recording with someone I adore or because it is the only or one of the few recordings of the opera.

Then there are singers who don't appeal to me in most of their rep, but they have one or two roles that I enjoy them in.

Here's my list:

Beverly Sills. (I don't have any of her recordings and have always sought versions with other singers.)
Renee Fleming (With two exceptions: 1) Her Rusalka is one of the few things I think she did well, although I still prefer Benackova in the role; and 2) Thais as it is the only readily available, viable studio recording other than the one with Sills.)
Renata Tebaldi (Her live Forza from Naples is the exception that proves the rule.)
Anna Netrebko (Although I like her in Russian rep)

Rolando Villazon (I never understood what people saw in him, although I enjoyed an early Tales of Hoffmann at the ROH. He mostly seemed to be singing rep that was a touch too heavy for him and I wasn't surprised when he all but disappeared from the stage. The exception here is his Manon with Netrebko!)
Aleksandr Antonenko

Placido Domingo as a baritone
Piero Cappuccilli (although it's very difficult to completely avoid him)

There will be some others, but those are the main ones.

N.


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## KevinJS (Sep 24, 2021)

Haven’t dug that deep yet. I tend to look for singers who I know from other areas, figuring that if they usually make a pleasant noise, they’ll probably continue to do so. I’ll be interested in the thoughts of others, though, especially if recommendations result from those thoughts. 

I’d automatically avoid recordings that were transcribed from 78s and pick stereo over mono, studio over live, but that’s nothing to do with particular voices.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

The only two big names whose voices I really can't stand are Fischer-Dieskau and Sutherland. There are plenty of others that are far from my favorites but they don't make or break recordings if other things are to my liking.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I actively avoid any recording with Cecilia Bartoli. I only have one complete opera with her, Handel's *Rinaldo*, which I have for David Daniels.

Other than her, there are others I avoid for the most part.

Nilsson - I just don't like the sound of her voice. I do like her Elektra, but I don't much like the opera, and if I were to get a recording, I'd probably go for Sawallisch, as he brings out more of the lyricism in the score.
Netrebko - I just think she is totally overrated, though her early Russian rep is ok.

I wouldn't say I actively avoid Sutherland, but even in Bellini, Donizetti or Rossini, I will usually go for recordings featuring other singers first.

I avoid Corelli in anything French.


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## JanacekTheGreat (Feb 26, 2021)

Yes, I have a blacklist. Here is it ranked from "always avoid" to "quite often avoid":

Domingo
The Netrebko's
Schrott
Horne
Bartoli
Bostridge
Nucci
Villazon
Guleghina
Urmana
Sutherland
Podleś
Kaufmann
Garanca


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

*Are there opera singers you avoid whenever possible?*

Nope. 

As is said about something else, even the worst is wonderful.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I love Maria Callas, Franco Corell, Rolando Villazon, Roberto Alagna because they sing with passion. The rest are OK.
The ones I purposely avoid on record are:

Cécilia Bartoli (except for her first Rossini CD and _Sposa son disprezzata_)
Renée Fleming
Elisabeth Schwarzkopf (except in the Mozart / Da Ponte operas)
Joan Sutherland after 1959 (except her *Semiramide*, *The Art of the Prima Donna*, and *Turandot*
Placido Domingo - after he turned baritone, I generally grew allergic to him.
Anna Netrebko after she decided to go _spinto_
Franco Bonisolli
Renata Scotto
Elena Obratsova


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Pavarotti
Sutherland
Callas
And most any name that will not be available in decent sound.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

This group, unlike me, is not filled with Sutherland fans. So what else is new.
I will not listen to Callas after the late 50's
Could never get interested in Mirella Freini
Licia Albanese almost always sounds old, so I avoid her.
I love Tebaldi but not if she has lots of high notes
I am the only person in the forum that likes Marilyn Horne
Late Netrebko, except for Macbeth for some reason.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> This group, unlike me, is not filled with Sutherland fans. So what else is new.
> I will not listen to Callas after the late 50's
> Could never get interested in Mirella Freini
> Licia Albanese almost always sounds old, so I avoid her.
> ...


Sorry, Seattle, but you're not alone. Some Sutherland fans - I suspect there are many - simply do not post. And while I, among others, may not have stated a preference for Horne, there are operas that I simply cannot imagine without her: (*Semiramide*, *Rinaldo *, both Handel and Vivaldi's *Orlando*, for instance.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Klaus Florian Vogt, but really just 99% of modern Wagnerian singers.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

BachIsBest said:


> Klaus Florian Vogt, but really just 99% of modern Wagnerian singers.


:lol: :lol::lol:

I'm glad I haven't heard them, then!


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Albanese (grandma sound)
Antonenko(today)
Milanov
Bartoli(you know!)
Peerce
Cura
Gedda(no passion)
Corelli (only in French) Otherwise superb


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

MAS said:


> Sorry, Seattle, but you're not alone. Some Sutherland fans - I suspect there are many - simply do not post. And while I, among others, may not have stated a preference for Horne, there are operas that I simply cannot imagine without her: (*Semiramide*, *Rinaldo *, both Handel and Vivaldi's *Orlando*, for instance.


Virtual hug is being sent your way.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

MAS said:


> :lol: :lol::lol:
> 
> I'm glad I haven't heard them, then!


We should start an occupy the Met movement protesting the 99% (of Wagner singers that is). Set up tents and camp there until they clear us all out by playing modern Wagner recordings in a display of aural Opera brutality.


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

JanacekTheGreat said:


> Yes, I have a blacklist. Here is it ranked from "always avoid" to "quite often avoid":
> 
> Domingo
> The Netrebko's
> ...


Do you listen to anyone?


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## Tempesta (Sep 2, 2021)

slushy soprano Dame Sutherland
fog horn Birgit Nilsson
fatigue invoking Cecilia Bartoli 
nail-biting Anna Netrebko
nose pinched sounding Juan Diego Flórez
... for starters


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Phew! I'm blessed!

There are no opera singers that I don't enjoy listening to!

I can even tolerate Andrea Bocelli, most of the time!


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

It's a bit like Scotch whisky - there are no bad ones and nothing not to like! Unless one is pretentious, elitist and overestimates the importance of one's opinion in the matter .......


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

HenryPenfold said:


> It's a bit like Scotch whisky - there are no bad ones and nothing not to like! Unless one is pretentious, elitist and overestimates the importance of one's opinion in the matter .......


I was going to mention Lance Ryan until I read your post! But then again!!

I've never tasted a bad malt, but then again I've not tasted every one there is - yet!


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Barbebleu said:


> I was going to mention Lance Ryan until I read your post! But then again!!
> 
> I've never tasted a bad malt, but then again I've not tasted every one there is - yet!


I don't like whisky at all, so where does that leave me?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I know I responded to the OP above, but, to be honest, I don't much like negative threads. I'd much rather we had one on singers you actively seek out on a recording, though I think my list might become too long.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I don't like whisky at all, so where does that leave me?


All the poorer!


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I know I responded to the OP above, but, to be honest, I don't much like negative threads. I'd much rather we had one on singers you actively seek out on a recording, though I think my list might become too long.


I don't like 'negative' threads either, but to be fair, the OP talks about 'avoiding' singers one doesn't like when choosing a recording. Subsequent posts have taken licence tell us about singers they can't stand - I don't think that was the OP's intention.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> This group, unlike me, is not filled with Sutherland fans. So what else is new.
> I will not listen to Callas after the late 50's
> Could never get interested in Mirella Freini
> Licia Albanese almost always sounds old, so I avoid her.
> ...


That's not true, I like Horne too (even though I understand why others have problems with her technique). I also like Sutherland (maybe not as much as you, but more than others here). I suppose it's all relative, Dame Joan may not be Maria or Montsy, but she was a vocal phenomenon the like of which won't be heard again and I much prefer her over the canaries we have had to suffer since.

I agree with most of your comments in your post. (I too find Netrebko's Lady worthwhile - she obviously enjoys the role and throws herself into it.) I'd forgotten about Albanese, she's another that I avoid.

The fact you aren't a Freni fan surprises me, I really like her and can't think what there is not to like. Ditto Pavarotti.

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I've tried to think of a Mezzo that I avoid, but there isn't one. I really like mezzos!

Yes, even la Ceci. I have her first few recitals (although she is now endlessly churning out disc after disc of Baroque rarities and it's not really rep that I'm interested in). I like her Mozart, Rossini and Handel and have a few complete opera sets with her in.

Zinka Milanov just does nothing for me. Both the sound of her voice and what she does with it leave me cold.

I have a love/hate relationship with Nilsson. I don't like the general sound of her voice, but her Turandot was superb and as a fan of Elektra I find both the Solti and Sawallisch sets essential. I also have her Tristan and the Bohm Ring, but that's more because I feel they should be in a collection rather than them being favourites.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The Conte said:


> Zinka Milanov just does nothing for me. Both the sound of her voice and what she does with it leave me cold.
> 
> I have a love/hate relationship with Nilsson. I don't like the general sound of her voice, but her Turandot was superb and as a fan of Elektra I find both the Solti and Sawallisch sets essential. I also have her Tristan and the Bohm Ring, but that's more because I feel they should be in a collection rather than them being favourites.
> 
> N.


I feel the same about Milanov and I guess my feelings about Sutherland are similar to yours about Nilsson.

I don't have much Sutherland, but I do have her *Turandot* and I still reckon that Mehta recording is the best all round. Same for the Giulini *Don Giovanni* though, truth to tell, she is almost a different singer here from the one she became. I have her *La Fille du Régiment* mostly because there isn't a decent alternative. I often wonder what Mady Mesplé would have made of it. I much prefer her *Lakmé*. I have the first Decca recital and _The Art of the Prima Donna_ but no recitals after that.


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I know I responded to the OP above, but, to be honest, I don't much like negative threads. I'd much rather we had one on singers you actively seek out on a recording, though I think my list might become too long.


I agree. I jus5 cannot see why people want to bad mouth great singers like Sutherland et al. But maybe some people live in a parallel universe where all is perfect.


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## gvn (Dec 14, 2019)

I once had a friend who loved orchestral recordings but couldn't stand the sound of the flute, and therefore tried to avoid all those recordings in which flutes were audible. I felt desperately sorry for her, but in the immortal words of Michael Finsbury, I could do "nothing but sympathize."

I feel somewhat the same about people who can't endure Callas or Sutherland or Tebaldi or Nilsson or Pavarotti or Domingo or Del Monaco or Schreier or Fischer-Dieskau or Adam or Hotter or some other much-recorded singer. They have to miss out on huge numbers of otherwise excellent recordings just because of that one voice.

A well-known critic recently posted online a survey of recordings of Schubert's _Winterreise,_ in which he began by ruling out all the recordings of Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, Wolfgang Holzmair, Matthias Goerne, Peter Pears, Peter Schreier, Ian Bostridge, Mark Padmore, Francisco Araiza, Christoph Prégardien, Werner Güra, Hans Peter Blochwitz, Pavel Breslik, Daniel Behle, Theo Adam, Christopher Maltman, and Michael Schade on the grounds that "I do not like their voices."

What can one do to overcome an allergy to a particular voice?

I find two things helpful.

1: I try to read comments by people who _like_ that singer, and I try to hear what they hear. Like many (most?) of my generation, I grew up with a strong aversion to the voice of Del Monaco. What cured me was reading comments by otherwise sane people who found things to admire in his performances, especially when they went into specific details.

2: I try _not_ to avoid listening to recordings of that singer. In the long run, with time and repetition, I find that the merits of a great artist will usually--nearly always--win out over their blemishes--indeed, the blemishes become inseparably associated with the merits, so that one comes to enjoy them too. Instead of flinching when Flagstad scoops up to a high note or Callas wobbles, one grins with delight and says to oneself "Ah yes, how characteristically Flagstad, or how characteristically Callas--this is going to be good!"

I've always been a slow learner, so for me it's a slow process. For 30+ years I didn't like Bernd Aldenhoff's bleating, strained, uneven Heldentenor sound. At last, quite recently, I've reached the point where it doesn't bother me any more, and I'm free for the first time to enjoy the vividness of his acting. I now say to myself, "Why shouldn't Siegfried and Parsifal, reared in the wilds, have a rough, irregular voice? And when the untrained amateur Walther blunders into a community almost entirely composed of Mastersingers and Mastersingers' apprentices and Mastersingers' daughters, isn't it appropriate that he should be the only singer in the cast who can't manage a decent legato?"* Not only am I better able to enjoy his performances, but I'm also better able to enjoy the excellent performances of the other folks in his recordings.

* In other words, for me it's often a matter of _finding the angle from which the performance can be enjoyed._

I do feel that I've got a long way to go. Any advice about other effective ways of curing such allergies would be most welcome!


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

gvn said:


> I once had a friend who loved orchestral recordings but couldn't stand the sound of the flute, and therefore tried to avoid all those recordings in which flutes were audible. I felt desperately sorry for her, but in the immortal words of Michael Finsbury, I could do "nothing but sympathize."
> 
> I feel somewhat the same about people who can't endure Callas or Sutherland or Tebaldi or Nilsson or Pavarotti or Domingo or Del Monaco or Schreier or Fischer-Dieskau or Adam or Hotter or some other much-recorded singer. They have to miss out on huge numbers of otherwise excellent recordings just because of that one voice.
> 
> ...


The 'critic' was indeed a professional nit-picker who obviously had a deep aversion to the human voice allied to his tin ear. What on earth he was doing reviewing Wintereisse is quite beyond me that he dislikes voices from all ends of the spectrum. Added to which the list contains some of the greatest interpreters of the cycle. Sure his name wasn't Monty Python?


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## JanacekTheGreat (Feb 26, 2021)

JTS said:


> Do you listen to anyone?


Yes, I do, *DavidA*. My list of favorite "anyone" is 20x bigger than this blacklist.

And in case you bring your same old bait again, no, we are not "jealous" of the like of Netrebko et al. because of their fame and success. They are simply bad singers.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

HenryPenfold said:


> Phew! I'm blessed!
> 
> There are no opera singers that I don't enjoy listening to!
> 
> *I can even tolerate Andrea Bocelli*, most of the time!


That must take a lot of this:



HenryPenfold said:


> It's a bit like *Scotch whisky *- there are no bad ones and nothing not to like! Unless one is pretentious, elitist and overestimates the importance of one's opinion in the matter .......


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

gvn said:


> I now say to myself, "Why shouldn't Siegfried and Parsifal, reared in the wilds, have a rough, irregular voice? And when the untrained amateur Walther blunders into a community almost entirely composed of Mastersingers and Mastersingers' apprentices and Mastersingers' daughters, isn't it appropriate that he should be the only singer in the cast who can't manage a decent legato?"


As I see it, operatic voices are meant to be stylized representations of the character's voice, since characters mostly aren't singing in the stories of the operas, and even when they are, the singers engaged to sing the parts are generally more accomplished than the actual character would be. I think the "Stylized" bit is really important. Operatic voices do not actually sound like the voices of the characters would. Coloratura sopranos often represent young girls, and basses and baritones for older men and tenors for young lovers, so there's some attempt to match a certain kind of voice with the type of character, but ultimately coloratura sopranos don't really sound like young girls and we accept that they are girlish by convention. If you take it too far in the direction of saying voices should represent the actual voice of the character, you end up with "she's consumptive so it's okay she can't make a stable, audible sound" or "he's an old character, so his wobble represents his palsy" or "she's in pain so she should sound shrill and harsh", that last one being an actual defense of many a painful (for me) rendition. Then pretty much anything is accepted as great singing because any fault can be magically turned into an expressive virtue, if only you pretend that it is about creating the sound of the character. But most of these faults are technical problems that the singer has no control over, and which are not part of the style of operatic singing. No opera composer wrote for a wobble, just as no piano composer wrote for a defective piano (well, not most of them anyway). Of course you're free to draw the line where you will, but I find it most valuable to seek out those performances where the singers successfully merge dramatic interpretation and refined vocalism. There are a lot of them, so I don't feel particularly short changed.

Now, that being said, I do agree that it is sometimes necessary to listen to a singer many times in order to fully appreciate them. I've had an evolution towards appreciation with quite a number of singers, and a few going the other way. There are many things unrelated to the true quality of a voice that can get in the way of a good first impression, and there are many non-technically perfect singers who are absolutely worth listening to. I just don't go quite as far as you maybe do once I've given a singer several chances.



> The 'critic' was indeed a professional nit-picker who obviously had a deep aversion to the human voice allied to his tin ear.


From the actual review:
"The naturalness of Hüsch's lyric baritone is what first strikes the listener, as opposed to the conscious
artifice of the Fischer-Dieskau interpretative school. It has a beautiful, dark-hued timbre of dark which
sounds like the paradigm of the oft-vaunted "natural extension of the speaking voice" and his vibrato
is unobtrusive but simply there to sustain longer notes. He frequently sings softly but there is no lack
of bite in moments of drama. His diction is exemplary such that meaning emerges without recourse to
undue emphasis. Tempi are swift and delivery is no-nonsense, making this cycle rather terser and more
concentrated than most modern versions. Hans Udo Müller's accompaniment is limpid and flexible."

Or:
"Anders began his career with a lyric tenor which soon developed into a more robust and heroic
instrument. His singing here is at times almost strident and often stentorian but he is equally capable
of a melting pianissimo mezza voce as in "Frühlingstraum", where he sings very softly without resorting
to crooning. He pays grateful attention to subtleties and nuances such as diminuendos and
acciaccaturas, with all the little grace notes and telling inflections in place. His diction is crystalline and
his willingness to sing out operatically means that his big voice has the capacity to strike just the right
note of desperation this cycle demands. Tempi are swift and driven in a manner that complements
that sense of urgency, yet in songs such as "Die Krähe" both singer and pianist hit just the right note
of dreamy detachment, as the cold and isolation numb the poet's sensibilities."

Sounds like a tin ear with an aversion to the human voice to me.


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

vivalagentenuova said:


> As I see it, operatic voices are meant to be stylized representations of the character's voice, since characters mostly aren't singing in the stories of the operas, and even when they are, the singers engaged to sing the parts are generally more accomplished than the actual character would be. I think the "Stylized" bit is really important. Operatic voices do not actually sound like the voices of the characters would. Coloratura sopranos often represent young girls, and basses and baritones for older men and tenors for young lovers, so there's some attempt to match a certain kind of voice with the type of character, but ultimately coloratura sopranos don't really sound like young girls and we accept that they are girlish by convention. If you take it too far in the direction of saying voices should represent the actual voice of the character, you end up with "she's consumptive so it's okay she can't make a stable, audible sound" or "he's an old character, so his wobble represents his palsy" or "she's in pain so she should sound shrill and harsh", that last one being an actual defense of many a painful (for me) rendition. Then pretty much anything is accepted as great singing because any fault can be magically turned into an expressive virtue, if only you pretend that it is about creating the sound of the character. But most of these faults are technical problems that the singer has no control over, and which are not part of the style of operatic singing. No opera composer wrote for a wobble, just as no piano composer wrote for a defective piano (well, not most of them anyway). Of course you're free to draw the line where you will, but I find it most valuable to seek out those performances where the singers successfully merge dramatic interpretation and refined vocalism. There are a lot of them, so I don't feel particularly short changed.
> 
> Now, that being said, I do agree that it is sometimes necessary to listen to a singer many times in order to fully appreciate them. I've had an evolution towards appreciation with quite a number of singers, and a few going the other way. There are many things unrelated to the true quality of a voice that can get in the way of a good first impression, and there are many non-technically perfect singers who are absolutely worth listening to. I just don't go quite as far as you maybe do once I've given a singer several chances.
> 
> ...


As I haven't heard the singers mentioned I can't comment. What I can comment on is those he has rejected which are in my own library eg Schreier / Richter caught live, which is IMO the finest interpretation on disc. Perhaps it depends on whether one is looking for artistry or not. All opinion obviously. Amazing how it was Richter who wanted with work with Schreier though.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Milnes, Warren, Fischer-Dieskau, Nucci, and Kaufmann.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I'm hesitant to contribute my list of vocal allergens to this thread, partly because I've become so persnickety (overly particular, for you non-North Americans) in my dotage. If I wanted to keep up with opera these days I'd be subjected constantly to unremarkable singers I'd rather avoid. But perhaps the question is whether there are accomplished and celebrated singers, singers with exceptional qualities and real virtues, whom we simply cannot tolerate and will not listen to if we can avoid them. For me that's probably a short list, and as a Wagnerian I'm compelled to put Martha Modl at the top of it. I have no doubt that the lady's reputation for dramatic effectiveness was well earned, but I can't figure out what's going on in her throat and it makes me so uncomfortable that not all the histrionics in the world can make me want to listen to it. I have to say that in the _hochdramatische_ repertoire I don't find Astrid Varnay (after her early years) all that much more pleasing, and I don't willingly listen to her either. Unfortunately these two quasi-sopranos (a fach I just invented) compromise many otherwise worthwhile recordings from Bayreuth, and this leaves me with a gaping hole in the recorded history of Wagner's _Ring,_ _Tristan_ and _Parsifal._ It's a great pity that Eileen Farrell wasn't singing Isolde and Brunnhilde in the '50s, filling in the hiatus between the retirement of Flagstad and Traubel and the arrival of Nilsson.

There are probably many more singers I can enjoy in certain of their roles but won't listen to in others. Sounds like a good idea for a separate thread...


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## Taplow (Aug 13, 2017)

Éva Marton - absolutely, always, without a doubt.

Shrieking harridan!


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## FrankE (Jan 13, 2021)

No.
I'd probably avoid them all in person though and for very good reason.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

the most: *ANY* countertenor

the rest are in no particular order
Cecilia Bartoli
Juan Diego Florez 
Anna Netrebko (see below)
Marilyn Horne 
Angela Gheorghiu 
Edita Gruberova (post 90s. she had some good work early on, then slowly declined until at one point her voice just...broke above a high A.)



MAS said:


> Anna Netrebko *after she decided to go spinto*


this bit is important. she sounded fine when she just sang like a....normal light soprano who didn't use enough valsalva maneuver to give most people a hernia. her singing went from decent and pleasant to downright offensive


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Unfortunately these two quasi-sopranos (a fach I just invented)


I am book marking this the next time you go after me for fach-ing everything up :lol:



> I have to say that in the hochdramatische repertoire I don't find Astrid Varnay (after her early years) all that much more pleasing


There is a brief period where she's really old and her Klytemnestra takes on a whole new level of spine tingling, but aside from that, yes. The first 20% and last 2% of her career are all I care to listen to.

As for the general thrust of your post, I'm in agreement, except I still made a list cuz I'm a little bit pettier than you are.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I am book marking this the next time you go after me for fach-ing everything up :lol:
> 
> There is a brief period where she's really old and her Klytemnestra takes on a whole new level of spine tingling, but aside from that, yes. The first 20% and last 2% of her career are all I care to listen to.
> 
> As for the general thrust of your post, I'm in agreement, except I still made a list cuz I'm a little bit pettier than you are.


A little bit, did he say?

(When I first read that I thought it said "prettier.")


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> A little bit, did he say?
> 
> (When I first read that I thought it said "prettier.")


Alas, there is life in these old bones yet, but the flower of my youth has long since faded.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

gvn said:


> A well-known critic recently posted online a survey of recordings of Schubert's _Winterreise,_ in which he began by ruling out all the recordings of Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, Wolfgang Holzmair, Matthias Goerne, Peter Pears, Peter Schreier, Ian Bostridge, Mark Padmore, Francisco Araiza, Christoph Prégardien, Werner Güra, Hans Peter Blochwitz, Pavel Breslik, Daniel Behle, Theo Adam, Christopher Maltman, and Michael Schade on the grounds that "I do not like their voices."


That degree of discrimination strikes me as bizarre, and frankly, I don't think that I'd pay much attention to any critic who rules out that many singers, about anything. It's hard for me to understand his antipathy toward Güra, Breslik, and Behle, and I don't believe that Michael Schade has recorded Winterreise.



> 1: I try to read comments by people who _like_ that singer, and I try to hear what they hear.


That can be useful, but what I find most useful are recommendations for specific recordings from people who are generally not fans of a particular singer. It's important to judge singers at their best. Like many people, I viewed Josef Greindl as a provincial bellower based on some of his Wagner recordings, until I heard his Lieder recordings. I share the antipathy of many toward Gwyneth Jones and Eva Marton, but in both cases, their early recordings are very much worth hearing.



> 2: I try _not_ to avoid listening to recordings of that singer. In the long run, with time and repetition, I find that the merits of a great artist will usually--nearly always--win out over their blemishes--indeed, the blemishes become inseparably associated with the merits, so that one comes to enjoy them too.


I do that sort of thing with singers and performances that I dislike, returning to them a few years after dismissing them. But I have to admit that it rarely changes my opinion

There really aren't that many singers whose entire output I actively avoid - just a couple - but there are quite a few whose presence I regret when they're part of an opera cast. For example, I'm not enamored of the voices of Varnay, Mödl, or Nilsson, but I'd be a fool if I rejected Wagner recordings due to their presence.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> I have to say that in the _hochdramatische_ repertoire I don't find Astrid Varnay (after her early years) all that much more pleasing, and I don't willingly listen to her either.


There are really only two Varnay recordings that I enjoy - her 1941 Met Sieglinde (her Met debut), and one of her last Bayreuth Ortruds, in 1962 (the one issued by Philips). In both cases, her maddening habit of attacking notes from below is virtually nonexistent.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> the most: *ANY* countertenor
> 
> ...


Agree but that there are exceptions. While I don't go out of my way for countertenors, there was one in a live Alcina I attended and he was great, though, had I known, I'd rather have gone the next night when the role was filled with a female.

As for recordings, you can't beat James Bowman as Tolomeo in Handel's Julius Caesar (Mackerras, Baker, Masterson, English National Opera). Get the DVD as the acting is a huge part of it.


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

SixFootScowl said:


> Agree but that there are exceptions. While I don't go out of my way for countertenors, there was one in a live Alcina I attended and he was great, though, had I known, I'd rather have gone the next night when the role was filled with a female.
> 
> As for recordings, you can't beat James Bowman as Tolomeo in Handel's Julius Caesar (Mackerras, Baker, Masterson, English National Opera). Get the DVD as the acting is a huge part of it.


I have no problems with countertenors in the right roles but there was a horror when Gardiner cast a countertenor as Cherubino in Figaro. A total disaster as far as I was concerned.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

HenryPenfold said:


> It's a bit like Scotch whisky - there are no bad ones and nothing not to like! Unless one is pretentious, elitist and overestimates the importance of one's opinion in the matter .......


Funny how several posters here dismiss some of the greatest opera singers in history. I aim for variety so even though I like Domingo I don't want to end up with him on every opera I buy from the 70s & 80s. Same with Callas in the 50s & 60s. The only singer I really didn't like was the Isolde on Bernstein's recording. But I ended up with that one because the vendor sent me the wrong CDs.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

wkasimer said:


> There are really only two Varnay recordings that I enjoy - her 1941 Met Sieglinde (her Met debut), and one of her last Bayreuth Ortruds, in 1962 (the one issued by Philips). In both cases, her maddening habit of attacking notes from below is virtually nonexistent.


I haven't heard that particular _Lohengrin,_ but Ortrud was, IMO, the role that suited her best. She and Hermann Uhde made a formidable pair of villains. But it's too bad she didn't keep the voice she had in 1941. She sounded like a different singer, and her Sieglinde was one of the best.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I haven't heard that particular _Lohengrin,_ but Ortrud was, IMO, the role that suited her best. She and Hermann Uhde made a formidable pair of villains. But it's too bad she didn't keep the voice she had in 1941. She sounded like a different singer, and her Sieglinde was one of the best.


She was singing heavy Wagner in her early 20's and that is not a good idea. Sieglinde at 22. She had a vocal crisis in her 20's. I love her. I have her in a contest that might win you over. I will not bet money on it, though LOL. She was still in good voice for the first stereo Ring. Same age as Nilsson and she had given up soprano roles just as Nilsson took up the heldensoprano roles.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> She was singing heavy Wagner in her early 20's and that is not a good idea. Sieglinde at 22. She had a vocal crisis in her 20's. I love her. I have her in a contest that might win you over. I will not bet money on it, though LOL. She was still in good voice for the first stereo Ring. Same age as Nilsson and she had given up soprano roles just as Nilsson took up the heldensoprano roles.


It's interesting that she didn't take the advice of her older friend and mentor, Flagstad, who advised young singers to "leave Wagner alone."


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## amadeus1928 (Jun 16, 2021)

I can't really think of too many specifics but here you go:
* The Netrebkos (especially Anna)
* Placido Domingo
* Maria Callas after she lost weight


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## amadeus1928 (Jun 16, 2021)

Countertenors are very hit-or-miss. They are either really beautiful or strange and harsh sounding.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

amadeus1928 said:


> * Maria Callas after she lost weight


Which actually means most of her studio recordings.

Pre- weight loss:-
La Gioconda (Cetra)
Lucia di Lammemoor I
I Puritani
Cavalleria Rusicana
Tosca
La Traviata (Cetra)

Post weight loss:-
Norma I
I Pagliacci
La Forza del Destino
Il Turco in Italia
Puccini Heroines
Lyric and Coloratura
Callas at La Scala
Madama Butterfly
Aida
Rigoletto
Il Trovatore
La Boheme
Un Ballo in Maschera
Il Barbiere di Siviglia
La Sonnambula
Turandot
Manon Lescaut
Medea
Verdi Heroines
Mad Scenes
Lucia di Lammermoor II
La Gioconda II
Norma II
Callas â Paris I
Callas â Paris II
Beethoven, Mozart and Weber
Verdi Arias
Donizetti and Rossini
Carmen 
Tosca II

I have a feeling you might be quite surprised how many good recordings she made post weight loss (and how many of those you actually like).


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Gradually, I find myself becoming more and more intolerant in the field of voices, both for opera and songs/lieder. 
Especially female singers, but also some male. Almost all countertenors. In fact, most recorded singers tend to have limitations, when facing difficulties.

Mostly because of voices/voice limitations; to a much lesser extent because of wrong accent or diction in foreign-language recordings.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Which actually means most of her studio recordings.
> 
> Pre- weight loss:-
> La Gioconda (Cetra)
> ...


I was very surprised at how good her recordings around 56 were!


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## Elvis (Aug 3, 2020)

Deleted post - 

Tried not to go "negative" - Couldn't quite pull it off - Still sounded kind of snarky despite extensive editing.


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

joen_cph said:


> Gradually, I find myself becoming more and more intolerant in the field of voices, both for opera and songs/lieder.
> Especially female singers, but also some male. Almost all countertenors.* In fact, most recorded singers tend to have limitations, when facing difficulties.
> *
> Mostly because of voices/voice limitations; to a much lesser extent because of wrong accent or diction in foreign-language recordings.


The problem is that opera was originally intended to be (and still is ideally) a live, one off, event. We were not meant to have a recording where we could examine at length the singing over and over again. We also had the power of the acting and the physical presence of the singers. All this is lost in a recording despite the ability to retake. No performance is ever prefect.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Agree, but in my case, it even happens at first hearings, though ... :lol:


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

joen_cph said:


> Agree, but in my case, it even happens at first hearings, though ... :lol:


The problem is that perfection is never realised. Ever heard a live recital that is perfect?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)




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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

^^^It was pleasant to hear them talk, at least.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

90% of modern "basses", especially Rene Pape.

Where have all the *real* basses gone? Mostly we're left with either 
1) extreme ingolata singing unbecoming of _any_ voice type
2) baritones who lose all their dark undertones because they're singing in too low a tessitura 
3) even worse, a few of them are _tenors_ who think that being able to hit the lowest note in the role means "that must be my voice type)

I long for the days of Jerome Hines, Evgeny Nesterenko, Giorgio Tadeo and Evgeny Nesterenko (and while we're at it, someone revive Thurl Ravenscroft. Contemporary music needs more too).


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> 90% of modern "basses", especially Rene Pape.
> 
> Where have all the *real* basses gone? Mostly we're left with either
> 1) extreme ingolata singing unbecoming of _any_ voice type
> ...


I haven't come across basses who are really tenors, but I agree that our present crop of basses lack resonance and presence and power of voice.

N.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

The Conte said:


> I haven't come across basses who are really tenors


here's one example. sorry, but...he doesn't sound remotely like a bass. 







> but I agree that our present crop of basses lack resonance and presence and power of voice.
> N.


People say things like "oh, they're real basses, that's just their timbre"
uh...._wrong_. Obviously, not every singer needs to have the same timbre in the same music, but timbre is an important part of which rep one should be singing. With basses, there are dark basses...and there are *very* dark basses. There are basses with heavy voices, and basses with *very* heavy voices.

Contrary to my reputation around here, I really don't think we need to pigeonhole every singer into just one tiny category of rep (ex: plenty of soprani, from dramatic up to leggiero, have done justice to Madame Butterfly), but there are minimum standards that need to be met, and if you don't possess a dark, formidable voice capable of sounding large and menacing...you aren't a bass.


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## Parsifal98 (Apr 29, 2020)

I try to avoid but am sometimes forced to listen to:

-Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau: I find his technique far from perfect, as people sometimes write. The voice is dry and forward, with barely any resonance. Overall, I am not to fond of his over-intellectualized singing. The only recording in which I don't mind him is the Furtwängler's Tristan. The problem is that he recorded so much, it is actually hard to efficiently avoid him...
-Martha Mödl: I think Woodduck describes best how her singing sounds.
-Astrid Varnay: I do not like the sound of her voice. Everything sounds laboured. 
-Hans Hotter: I am not fond of the wobbly, nasal sound that comes out of his mouth. When having to choose a 1950s Wotan, I much prefer Ferdinand Frantz and George London. 
-Birgit Nilsson: I don't avoid her per se, for her high notes are indeed impressive, and she makes some hard roles sound easy. But I do not like the overall sound of her voice. Her middle voice sounds too hooty for me, as if it is mostly falsetto. I know it is not the case, but I still find her registration weird.
-Otto Wiener: goes without saying. 
-Helga Dernesch: How I wish Christa Ludwig had sang Isolde instead of her on the Karajan recording.
-Wolfgang Windgassen: his singing sounds too light. He is an intelligent musician and fine interpreter, but the voice is grating. I think it is Vivalagentenuova who wrote that he was an example of singing too brightly (not enough depth in the sound). I agree with him.
-Maria Callas after 1953: even though the wobble was present beforehand, after 1953, it becomes too present. I still love some of her performances, and I adore the sound of her voice. It sounds tragic. 
- Elisabeth Schwarzkopf: I used to like her but now find her voice and her mannerism annoying. Listening to her, I think the basics of her voice are fine. She is not afraid of using her chest voice, and she can make some beautiful sounds. But I feel like she is constricting her instrument and singing in the mask (something that she used to teach in her masterclasses). The voice does not _spin_. Compare her Marschallin or her Ariadne to Maria Reining (also a lyric soprano) or Lotte Lehamnn and you'll hear what I mean.

The list is not complete, but these are the first singers that came into my mind  (please don't throw stones at me).


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## Ulfilas (Mar 5, 2020)

Off the top of my head:

Klaus Florian Vogt
Tomasz Konieczny
Christian Franz
Robert Dean Smith
Stephen Gould

Which rules out quite a few recent Wagner recordings.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> here's one example. sorry, but...he doesn't sound remotely like a bass.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree. Perhaps it would have been better to say "those singing today in bass roles", rather than "today's basses".

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

And on Bryn Terfel, he identifies as a bass-baritone. I don't think he is a bass or a tenor, sounds more like a baritone to me.

N.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Parsifal98 said:


> please don't throw stones at me


Ok. Btw, doesn't this guy look like Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau?:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Parsifal98 said:


> I try to avoid but am sometimes forced to listen to:
> 
> -Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau: I find his technique far from perfect, as people sometimes write. The voice is dry and forward, with barely any resonance. Overall, I am not to fond of his over-intellectualized singing. The only recording in which I don't mind him is the Furtwängler's Tristan. The problem is that he recorded so much, it is actually hard to efficiently avoid him...
> -Martha Mödl: I think Woodduck describes best how her singing sounds.
> ...


Some interesting remarks here, most of which I agree with, at least to an extent. I would add Wolfram and Gunther as two other roles in which Fischer-Dieskau is very effective. Have you heard the young Hotter in the superb 1930s Walkure act 2 with Fuchs, Lehmann, Melchior and Klose? It does occur to me that you may have an even harder time with postwar Wagner performances than I do, and that's saying something.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Ulfilas said:


> Off the top of my head:
> 
> Klaus Florian Vogt
> Tomasz Konieczny
> ...


Have you heard Konieczny in the house? It's a weird voice to me. I'm curious to know what impression it makes live...


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## aussiebushman (Apr 21, 2018)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> The only two big names whose voices I really can't stand are Fischer-Dieskau and Sutherland. There are plenty of others that are far from my favorites but they don't make or break recordings if other things are to my liking.


I surely agree with you. FD is essentially a crooner. I well remember many years ago, sharing with a friend the complete Schubert recordings where based on his singing style, it was difficult to tell one from another. He did not do much better as Orestes in Electra

As for Sutherland, ther are many great aspects of her voice, but the strangled Australian dipthongs do not make for conducive listening


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## Parsifal98 (Apr 29, 2020)

Woodduck said:


> Some interesting remarks here, most of which I agree with, at least to an extent. I would add Wolfram and Gunther as two other roles in which Fischer-Dieskau is very effective. Have you heard the young Hotter in the superb 1930s Walkure act 2 with Fuchs, Lehmann, Melchior and Klose? It does occur to me that you may have an even harder time with postwar Wagner performances than I do, and that's saying something.


I have indeed heard Hotter in this great recording under the baton of Bruno Seidler-Winkler and he his impressive in it. This, coupled with his early recordings of _Winterreise_ and _Der Fliegende Holländer_, are my favourite works of his. But I unfortunately do not care much for him after his vocal crisis of the late 40s/early 50s.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Parsifal98 said:


> I have indeed heard Hotter in this great recording under the baton of Bruno Seidler-Winkler and he his impressive in it. This, coupled with his early recordings of _Winterreise_ and _Der Fliegende Holländer_, are my favourite works of his. But I unfortunately do not care much for him after his vocal crisis of the late 40s/early 50s.


I appreciate Hotter's weaknesses, but his eloquence can sometimes make me ignore them. I find his Gurnemanz so sensitive and noble, so complete in its projection of the character as I understand him, that only truly extraordinary basses satisfy me to the same extent.


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## dave2708 (Sep 28, 2020)

Who do i avoid.
Numero Uno is Jose Carreras.
Anytime he attempts a high note it sounds like someone dropped a safe on his foot.

Eastern European/Slavic tenors singing anything Italian. They just bark everything.

Any Soprano who records anything after the age of 50. She usually just screeches and wobbles through the score.

Maria Callas. Sorry Callas nutters. She may have been a greater interpreter but her voice was generally ugly and strident.
Her top notes sounded like a fire truck alarm on a half dead battery.

Birgit Nilsson. What's the difference between her singing and running your nails down a chalk board? Nothing!

That's enough for now.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

dave2708 said:


> Who do i avoid.
> Numero Uno is Jose Carreras.
> Anytime he attempts a high note it sounds like someone dropped a safe on his foot.


yes, 100%



> Eastern European/Slavic tenors singing anything Italian. They just bark everything.


does this sound "barky" to you, or did you mean something else? personally I like a few of them








> Any Soprano who records anything after the age of 50. She usually just screeches and wobbles through the score.


she is in her 60s here.








> Maria Callas. Sorry Callas nutters. She may have been a greater interpreter but her voice was generally ugly and strident.
> Her top notes sounded like a fire truck alarm on a half dead battery.
> 
> Birgit Nilsson. What's the difference between her singing and running your nails down a chalk board? Nothing!
> ...


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## dave2708 (Sep 28, 2020)

Kirsten sounds like my grandmother singing. :lol:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

dave2708 said:


> Kirsten sounds like my grandmother singing. :lol:


57 years old:






Obviously your grandmother needs to audition for Opera Australia.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

dave2708 said:


> Kirsten sounds like my grandmother singing. :lol:


Does your grandma have an album I can purchase?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I am surprised he is allowed to stay on this forum after what he said about Callas.LOL Obviously he only listed to her from the late 50's onwards when I would agree whole heartedly with him.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I am surprised he is allowed to stay on this forum after what he said about Callas.LOL Obviously he only listed to her from the late 50's onwards when I would agree whole heartedly with him.


His remarks are all hyperbole. It's either trolling or an attempt at humor. Or maybe deafness.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> His remarks are all hyperbole. It's either trolling or an attempt at humor. Or maybe deafness.


Maybe "all of the above".


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

dave2708 said:


> Who do i avoid.
> Numero Uno is Jose Carreras.
> Anytime he attempts a high note it sounds like someone dropped a safe on his foot.
> 
> ...


I know you're trying to be funny but the problem is that generalisations like this make you look rather stupid. People laugh at you rather than laugh with you


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> His remarks are all hyperbole. It's either trolling or an attempt at humor. Or maybe deafness.


Yeah, I see it as a harmless attempt to stir the pot a bit. Some people around here could use a bit of a jolt imo.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Does your grandma have an album I can purchase?


While I'm at it: I've never really considered "sounding old" inherently bad to begin with. I will make a small concession that it tends to work better for lower voices than higher ones, but generally, I quite like listening to a lot of "older" voices with more richness, character, gravitas and complexity.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Yeah, I see it as a harmless attempt to stir the pot a bit. Some people around here could use a bit of a jolt imo.


Who? ................


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Who? ................


I didn't have any one individual in mind, I'm just aware that this forum is mostly older folks, and some occasional banter and controversy is necessary to keep one's wits about him, remain flexible and retain the ability to laugh at life. A lot of overly serious and polite people lose these abilities and end up making fools of themselves when a challenger (even a silly one) comes along and gives them a playful ribbing.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I didn't have any one individual in mind, I'm just aware that this forum is mostly older folks, and some occasion banter and controversy is necessary to keep one's wits about him, remain flexible and retain the ability to laugh at life. A lot of overly serious and polite people lose these abilities and end up making fools of themselves when a challenger (even a silly one) comes along and gives them a playful ribbing.


A "challenger"? What an interesting honorific.

I know the approximate age of several people here, and those of us I do know definitely have their wits - and a fair amount of wit - about them. A few people have undoubtedly made fools of themselves, but I doubt they can blame it on age. Numerous fools get an early start in life.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> A "challenger"? What an interesting honorific.
> 
> I know the approximate age of several people here, and those of us I do know definitely have their wits - and a fair amount of wit - about them. A few people have undoubtedly made fools of themselves, but I doubt they can blame it on age. Numerous fools get an early start in life.


Fools abound at all ages, but the reasons thereof and remedies therefor differ.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Fools abound at all ages, but the reasons thereof and remedies therefor differ.


Sounds intriguing. Why don't you make up a business card listing the remedies you provide? Make it very colorful and with few words in bold lettering, so that we fools, old or young, will understand it. And now that you mention it, there are quite a few disorders among opera lovers that would benefit from therapy. Do you treat faching disorders? Premature articulation? Depressed larynx? Baritonitis? Mezzothelioma?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I thought that the EPA had banned faching.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Sounds intriguing. Why don't you make up a business card listing the remedies you provide? Make it very colorful and with few words in bold lettering, so that we fools, old or young, will understand it. And now that you mention it, there are quite a few disorders among opera lovers that would benefit from therapy. Do you treat faching disorders? Premature articulation? Depressed larynx? Baritonitis? Mezzothelioma?


Because it would take more than a bloody business card to explain all of the remedies. Did you really think it was that easy? :lol:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Because it would take more than a bloody business card to explain all of the remedies. Did you really think it was that easy? :lol:


Of course not. The card is just to make you look professional and trustworthy. Faching disorders are endless, limited only by one's fantasies. Your previous posts barely tickle the surface, and we know you can penetrate much deeper.


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## dave2708 (Sep 28, 2020)

Lordy lord.
Toes seem to have been stepped on.
The very title of this thread invites opinion, exaggeration and a bit of mirth.
I note i have made a bit of fun of these singers and some fan groups as a generality.
I have not made personal attacks on individual posters.
You cant say the same about others here who have come for me. To that I don't really care but you should point out the hypocrisy.
As an opera lover, if you can't have a laugh at aspects of the genre, then you're missing out on a rich aspect of the art.
There's nothing more dull than a stodgy, nose in the air opera snob who won't have truck with any criticism of their favourite artist. 
None are perfect. 
And back to the subject in hand, I'm a bit indifferent to Franco Corelli.
He was wonderful in some stuff, but a bellowing high pitched foghorn in others.
My favourite tenor was Carlo Bergonzi. I suppose you can come for me about that.
Oh, I do own Maria's Tosca by the way. It's the only one of her performances(studio) I would bother with.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Because it would take more than a bloody business card to explain all of the remedies. Did you really think it was that easy? :lol:


But I saw once where they had an entire Bible printed on a 35mm film slide. You surely can fit a portfolio on a business card.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

If I really want to hear something, I'll deal with any singer. But anyway -

Placido Domingo
José Carreras
Klaus Florian Vogt
Mario Del Monaco
Jonas Kaufmann
Ian Bostridge
Thomas Hampson
Marilyn Horne
Anna Netrebko
Hildegard Behrens
Renee Fleming
Ileana Cotrubaș


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## dave2708 (Sep 28, 2020)

I like Kaufmann only in the German repertoire but I get people not liking him and the strange things he does with his voice. He sounded better before he changed his vocal technique. When you listen to his early Mozart, it's quite a surprise. The facial contortions he makes now to produce his sound is a bit off putting.



 I saw him in concert and you needed an umbrella if you were in the first row. I've never witnessed a singer spit so much saliva. It literally rained on everyone close up. It was more fascinating than his night of Puccini & Verdi.
Someone I know saw his Otello and wondered what all the fuss was about.
Renee is one who you listen to for lush sound. You don't worry too much about interpretation and sometimes that's perfectly OK!.
Domingo's greatest asset I think was he usually was always reliable. You likely wont get too many dud performances.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

adriesba said:


> If I really want to hear something, I'll deal with any singer. But anyway -
> 
> Placido Domingo
> José Carreras
> ...


Is this a list of singers you dislike! Jonas? Really. :lol:


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Barbebleu said:


> Is this a list of singers you dislike! Jonas? Really. :lol:


Yup. Never understood the appeal honestly.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

adriesba said:


> Yup. Never understood the appeal honestly.


I know little about operatic voices and you probably know all this. but it seems that some of the tenors who don't appeal to you are dramatic tenors e.g. Domingo, Kaufmann, & del Monaco. The voices are powerful, and they're really needed in certain roles like Otello and Grimes. Otello also has to stand up to a powerful dramatic baritone, Iago. The last time I saw _Otello_ live it got downright scary, and the singers weren't even as macho as some in the past, but that's _Otello_. I've read and heard criticism about other tenors with this voice type e.g. Jon Vickers and more recently Giuseppe Giacomini who died this year. But in their prime these singers could hold their own with Verdi's orchestra, sing and interpret his larger than life characters, and bring down the house. Who can replace them now? (I'm not excusing any singer's personal behavior with these comments by the way).


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Roger Knox said:


> I know little about operatic voices and you probably know all this. but it seems that some of the tenors who don't appeal to you are dramatic tenors e.g. Domingo, Kaufmann, & del Monaco. The voices are powerful, and they're really needed in certain roles like Otello and Grimes. Otello also has to stand up to a powerful dramatic baritone, Iago. The last time I saw _Otello_ live it got downright scary, and the singers weren't even as macho as some in the past, but that's _Otello_. I've read and heard criticism about other tenors with this voice type e.g. Jon Vickers and more recently Giamberti Giacomini who died this year. But in their prime these singers could hold their own with Verdi's orchestra, sing and interpret his larger than life characters, and bring down the house. Who can replace them now? (I'm not excusing any singer's personal behavior with these comments by the way).


I definitely enjoy dramatic tenors, but not the ones I listed. Jon Vickers is one of my favorite singers.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Roger Knox said:


> I know little about operatic voices and you probably know all this. but it seems that some of the tenors who don't appeal to you are dramatic tenors e.g. Domingo, Kaufmann, & del Monaco. The voices are powerful, and they're really needed in certain roles like Otello and Grimes. Otello also has to stand up to a powerful dramatic baritone, Iago. The last time I saw _Otello_ live it got downright scary, and the singers weren't even as macho as some in the past, but that's _Otello_. I've read and heard criticism about other tenors with this voice type e.g. Jon Vickers and more recently Giamberti Giacomini who died this year. But in their prime these singers could hold their own with Verdi's orchestra, sing and interpret his larger than life characters, and bring down the house. Who can replace them now? (I'm not excusing any singer's personal behavior with these comments by the way).


I think the guy's name is Giuseppe Giacomini, or is that just his _nom de plume? _. He was a very good _tenore robusto _ when he was "on."


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

adriesba said:


> I definitely enjoy dramatic tenors, but not the ones I listed. Jon Vickers is one of my favorite singers.


Fair enough. Vickers could be great in the right repertoire and I wish he hadn't refused to do Wagner, but so be it. Giacomini looked like a clerk and his timbre was unusually dark, but what a voice!

Also I'd like to mention that opera is as relevant as ever -- in my senior years I'm more of a Verdian than a Puccinian, and hearing Otello and Iago go at it I can imagine rows with my former boss or confrontations with rivals as though they happened yesterday. And it's not hard to imagine our media news in operatic terms, doesn't require ideological interpretation. (I'd better stop here ...)


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

MAS said:


> I think the guy's name is Giuseppe Giacomini, or is that just his _nom de plume? _. He was a very good _tenore robusto _ when he was "on."


Thanks, you're right! Corrected my posts.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

adriesba said:


> If I really want to hear something, I'll deal with any singer. But anyway -
> 
> Placido Domingo
> José Carreras
> ...


You had me until Mario Del Monaco. the other trend I'm getting from this is that you dislike fake-dark, fake-dramatic and fake mezzo/baritone voices, all of which I can totally get behind.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> You had me until Mario Del Monaco. the other trend I'm getting from this is that you dislike fake-dark, fake-dramatic and fake mezzo/baritone voices, all of which I can totally get behind.


I could tolerate Del Monaco better than most of the other singers I listed, but what I have heard of his singing seems like being loud for the sake of being loud.

But yeah, I don't like those fake qualities.


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## IgorS (Jan 7, 2018)

adriesba said:


> If I really want to hear something, I'll deal with any singer. But anyway -
> 
> Placido Domingo
> José Carreras
> ...


How the heck is MDM on this list?

P.S. Sorry didn't see your answer. Maybe you should give him another chance. MDM is a great singer with perfect technique.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Roger Knox said:


> Fair enough. Vickers could be great in the right repertoire and I wish he hadn't refused to do Wagner, but so be it.


Vickers sang plenty of Wagner. The only part he refused to do was Tannhäuser as he thought the opera was blasphemous and he couldn't empathise with the character. A more prosaic reason would be that the tessitura lay too high for him.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

IgorS said:


> How the heck is MDM on this list?
> 
> P.S. Sorry didn't see your answer. Maybe you should give him another chance. MDM is a great singer with perfect technique.


Perfect technique? That's a joke?


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Barbebleu said:


> Vickers sang plenty of Wagner. The only part he refused to do was Tannhäuser as he thought the opera was blasphemous and he couldn't empathise with the character. A more prosaic reason would be that the tessitura lay too high for him.


I would love to see his reasoning on that. The only problem I have with Tannhauser is with the beginning scene that is often portrayed on video with too much skin. I have one that is okay, but the rest I just do audio for the beginning.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> Vickers sang plenty of Wagner. The only part he refused to do was Tannhäuser as he thought the opera was blasphemous and he couldn't empathise with the character. A more prosaic reason would be that the tessitura lay too high for him.


He didn't sing Siegfried either. And what about Lohengrin?


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## dave2708 (Sep 28, 2020)

Vickers seem to mostly, if not exclusively stick to Sigmund and Tristan.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

dave2708 said:


> Vickers seem to mostly, if not exclusively stick to Sigmund and Tristan.


I suspect that he sang Parsifal far more often than Tristan.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

wkasimer said:


> I suspect that he sang Parsifal far more often than Tristan.


Nilsson regretted that Vickers didn't take up Tristan sooner and then do more performances with her. I know I'd have appreciated it; he might have transformed the semi-disastrous _Tristan_ I saw at the Met in 1972. Even Nilsson seemed (justifiably) bored with her colleagues, but with Vickers in the cast boredom was probably impossible.


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## dave2708 (Sep 28, 2020)

wkasimer said:


> I suspect that he sang Parsifal far more often than Tristan.


I was meaning more on disc. I don't think he has Parsifal on disc unless there is some obscure live performance recording somewhere.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

dave2708 said:


> I was meaning more on disc. I don't think he has Parsifal on disc unless there is some obscure live performance recording somewhere.


Bayreuth 1964 isn't obscure. And the Met issued his 1985 broadcast.


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## IgorS (Jan 7, 2018)

Bonetan said:


> Perfect technique? That's a joke?


What do you expect from dramatic tenor? Fioritura? He produced his notes exactly the way opera notes should be produced. He never was woofy, aspirated, nasal, or constricted.


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## arapinho1 (Oct 11, 2020)

I avoid all opera


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> He didn't sing Siegfried either. And what about Lohengrin?


I think these were more about opportunity or lack thereof rather than an active dislike of the part. Was he not in discussion with Wieland about doing the Götterdämmerung Siegfried but it all fell through? I've no clue why he never sang Lohengrin although, like Tannhäuser, the part lies quite high.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

IgorS said:


> What do you expect from dramatic tenor? Fioritura? He produced his notes exactly the way opera notes should be produced. He never was woofy, aspirated, nasal, or constricted.


MDM was an exciting singer and I understand why he has as many fans as he does, but this is not the description of a perfect technique. Even if Olivero is exaggerating and/or being overly critical in the following quote it's pretty clear MDM's technique should never be taught and is therefore far from perfect.

Olivero on Mario Del Monaco:
When Del Monaco and I sang Francesca da Rimini together at La Scala he explained his whole vocal technique to me. When he finished I said, "My dear Del Monaco, if I had to put into practice all the things you've told me, I'd stop singing right away and just disappear." The technique was so complicated: you push the larynx down, then you push this up, then you do that - in short, it made my head spin just to hear everything he did. We recorded Francesca excerpts together. Francesca has a beautiful phrase, "Paolo, datemi pace," marked "piano," and then Paolo enters with "Inghirlandata di violette," which also should be sung softly, delicately. Instead, Del Monaco was terrible - he bellowed the phrase [she imitates him and laughs]! When he listened to the playback he exclaimed, "I can't believe it! After that soft poetic phrase I come in and what do I sound like - a boxer punching with his fists!" He recorded the phrase again, but the second attempt was more or less the same because he was incapable of singing piano. He was furious with himself because he wanted to. He tried everything, but his technique would not permit him to sing softly since it totally was based on the muscles.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Bonetan said:


> MDM was an exciting singer and I understand why he has as many fans as he does, but this is not the description of a perfect technique. Even if Olivero is exaggerating and/or being overly critical in the following quote it's pretty clear MDM's technique should never be taught and is therefore far from perfect.
> 
> Olivero on Mario Del Monaco:
> When Del Monaco and I sang Francesca da Rimini together at La Scala he explained his whole vocal technique to me. When he finished I said, "My dear Del Monaco, if I had to put into practice all the things you've told me, I'd stop singing right away and just disappear." The technique was so complicated: you push the larynx down, then you push this up, then you do that - in short, it made my head spin just to hear everything he did. We recorded Francesca excerpts together. Francesca has a beautiful phrase, "Paolo, datemi pace," marked "piano," and then Paolo enters with "Inghirlandata di violette," which also should be sung softly, delicately. Instead, Del Monaco was terrible - he bellowed the phrase [she imitates him and laughs]! When he listened to the playback he exclaimed, "I can't believe it! After that soft poetic phrase I come in and what do I sound like - a boxer punching with his fists!" He recorded the phrase again, but the second attempt was more or less the same because he was incapable of singing piano. He was furious with himself because he wanted to. He tried everything, but his technique would not permit him to sing softly since it totally was based on the muscles.


Considering how well Olivero preserved her voice, one assumes she would know.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

IgorS said:


> *What do you expect from dramatic tenor? Fioritura?* He produced his notes exactly the way opera notes should be produced. He never was woofy, aspirated, nasal, or constricted.


Tbh...yes, I expect this from every singer. Any voice type can develop flexibility. That said, MDM is a remarkable singer with otherwise very good technique.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

arapinho1 said:


> I avoid all opera


As is your right. What do you listen to?


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

I replied to this thread a little while ago in a slightly dismissive fashion. 

However, on reflection, I do at least try to avoid certain singers. Plácido Domingo and José Carreras. 

Especially the latter. 

Can't explain why I don't like their singing, I just don't.

But I don't refuse to buy recordings with their contribution, I'd just rather not (I have bought a few Verdi Boito and others).


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## Parsifal98 (Apr 29, 2020)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Considering how well Olivero preserved her voice, one assumes she would know.


She did preserve her caprino quite well


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Considering how well Olivero preserved her voice, one assumes she would know.


Indeed. Her voice was a bit odd - the very rapid vibrato has been noted - but you don't sing opera into your seventies and eighties without a sound technique.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

Bonetan said:


> MDM was an exciting singer and I understand why he has as many fans as he does, but this is not the description of a perfect technique. Even if Olivero is exaggerating and/or being overly critical in the following quote it's pretty clear MDM's technique should never be taught and is therefore far from perfect.
> 
> Olivero on Mario Del Monaco:
> When Del Monaco and I sang Francesca da Rimini together at La Scala he explained his whole vocal technique to me. When he finished I said, "My dear Del Monaco, if I had to put into practice all the things you've told me, I'd stop singing right away and just disappear." The technique was so complicated: you push the larynx down, then you push this up, then you do that - in short, it made my head spin just to hear everything he did. We recorded Francesca excerpts together. Francesca has a beautiful phrase, "Paolo, datemi pace," marked "piano," and then Paolo enters with "Inghirlandata di violette," which also should be sung softly, delicately. Instead, Del Monaco was terrible - he bellowed the phrase [she imitates him and laughs]! When he listened to the playback he exclaimed, "I can't believe it! After that soft poetic phrase I come in and what do I sound like - a boxer punching with his fists!" He recorded the phrase again, but the second attempt was more or less the same because he was incapable of singing piano. He was furious with himself because he wanted to. He tried everything, but his technique would not permit him to sing softly since it totally was based on the muscles.


I believe the recording she refers to was made in 1969. Del Monaco's voice had deteriorated significantly by then. There are many factors in vocal decline, and I'm not sure if we can nail down the reason for his decline any more than Callas' or Tebaldi's. What I can say is that earlier in his career he could sing softly. He is not my ideal dramatic tenor. I prefer Zanelli, Luccioni, and others. I don't much care for Olivero, though. I really wish she hadn't been cast in the 1938 _Turandot_. She seems like a sensitive interpreter, but I simply cannot get past the vibrato.



> Tbh...yes, I expect this from every singer. Any voice type can develop flexibility. That said, MDM is a remarkable singer with otherwise very good technique.


Agreed, and there are many examples of this.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

vivalagentenuova said:


> I don't much care for Olivero, though. I really wish she hadn't been cast in the 1938 _Turandot_. She seems like a sensitive interpreter, but I simply cannot get past the vibrato.


Nor do I really. I am impressed by her longevity, but I don't much like her vibrato and I often find her just too melodramatic. Her acting and singing style make me think of a sort of aural equivalent of silent movie acting. I suppose I find her a bit hammy.


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

vivalagentenuova said:


> I believe the recording she refers to was made in 1969. Del Monaco's voice had deteriorated significantly by then. There are many factors in vocal decline, and I'm not sure if we can nail down the reason for his decline any more than Callas' or Tebaldi's. What I can say is that earlier in his career he could sing softly. He is not my ideal dramatic tenor. I prefer Zanelli, Luccioni, and others. I don't much care for Olivero, though. I really wish she hadn't been cast in the 1938 _Turandot_. She seems like a sensitive interpreter, but I simply cannot get past the vibrato.
> 
> Agreed, and there are many examples of this.


Regarding Del Monaco, I've read in various places over the years a suggested link between him being badly injured in a car crash in the early 1960s and perceived vocal decline. If it might contribute to the discussion, the most detailed suggestion of that sort I've come across is here:

"As I'm sure you know, Del Monaco had a serious automobile accident, I believe, in December of 1963, when he was 48 years old. He broke all of his ribs, his pelvis, and very severely damaged his kidneys. He was on dialysis several times a week for the rest of his life. He resumed singing within the year but his voice was one-half the size of what it had been previously. Where before he had been a great Otello and Samson, now he was a competent Cavaradossi. I was fortunate to hear him again for the last time in Bologna around Christmas of 1964 in a performance of "Otello" with Marcella Pobbe and Giulio Fioravanti. The quality of the voice sounded somewhat similar but he was no longer able to support the huge sound as before. And so a singer who once had been bigger than life on stage had now become just another reasonably good tenor. It is interesting to speculate what Del Monaco's voice might have sounded like ten or fifteen years later had he not had this disabling accident. Pavarotti's voice continued to grow and improve until he was sixty or sixty-five."
Source: http://www.operanostalgia.be/html/Del Monaco-AIKINS.html


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Revitalized Classics said:


> Regarding Del Monaco, I've read in various places over the years a suggested link between him being badly injured in a car crash in the early 1960s and perceived vocal decline. If it might contribute to the discussion, the most detailed suggestion of that sort I've come across is here:
> 
> "As I'm sure you know, Del Monaco had a serious automobile accident, I believe, in December of 1963, when he was 48 years old. He broke all of his ribs, his pelvis, and very severely damaged his kidneys. He was on dialysis several times a week for the rest of his life. He resumed singing within the year but his voice was one-half the size of what it had been previously. Where before he had been a great Otello and Samson, now he was a competent Cavaradossi. I was fortunate to hear him again for the last time in Bologna around Christmas of 1964 in a performance of "Otello" with Marcella Pobbe and Giulio Fioravanti. The quality of the voice sounded somewhat similar but he was no longer able to support the huge sound as before. And so a singer who once had been bigger than life on stage had now become just another reasonably good tenor. It is interesting to speculate what Del Monaco's voice might have sounded like ten or fifteen years later had he not had this disabling accident. Pavarotti's voice continued to grow and improve until he was sixty or sixty-five."
> Source: http://www.operanostalgia.be/html/Del Monaco-AIKINS.html


That's interesting information, but the author's suggestion that voices are likely to improve until late in any singer's career isn't borne out in my experience. It certainly isn't true of Pavarotti's, as he claims. Singers are generally fortunate to keep most of what they have into their fifties.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

Revitalized Classics said:


> Regarding Del Monaco, I've read in various places over the years a suggested link between him being badly injured in a car crash in the early 1960s and perceived vocal decline. If it might contribute to the discussion, the most detailed suggestion of that sort I've come across is here:
> 
> "As I'm sure you know, Del Monaco had a serious automobile accident, I believe, in December of 1963, when he was 48 years old. He broke all of his ribs, his pelvis, and very severely damaged his kidneys. He was on dialysis several times a week for the rest of his life. He resumed singing within the year but his voice was one-half the size of what it had been previously. Where before he had been a great Otello and Samson, now he was a competent Cavaradossi. I was fortunate to hear him again for the last time in Bologna around Christmas of 1964 in a performance of "Otello" with Marcella Pobbe and Giulio Fioravanti. The quality of the voice sounded somewhat similar but he was no longer able to support the huge sound as before. And so a singer who once had been bigger than life on stage had now become just another reasonably good tenor. It is interesting to speculate what Del Monaco's voice might have sounded like ten or fifteen years later had he not had this disabling accident. Pavarotti's voice continued to grow and improve until he was sixty or sixty-five."
> Source: http://www.operanostalgia.be/html/Del Monaco-AIKINS.html


I had heard something about this, but didn't know the year or the extent of the accident. That would almost certainly contribute to vocal problems. It's also worth noting that Del Monaco had two vocal crises as a young singer, both occasioned by leaving Melocchi and singing lighter repertoire as a lyric tenor. Whether this proves the rigidity of Melocchi's technique or the freeing power of it is ambiguous.

For anyone who doubts that Del Monaco was more than a belter, I suggest they listen to Filippeschi's first scene from the 1953 Callas studio _Norma_. Then listen to Del Monaco's 1955 radio _Norma_ with Callas, that whole first scene. The difference in depth of characterization, degree of vocal shading and coloring, and flexibility of voice is striking. He was a variable artist, certainly, but he _was_ an artist.


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

vivalagentenuova said:


> I had heard something about this, but didn't know the year or the extent of the accident. That would almost certainly contribute to vocal problems. It's also worth noting that Del Monaco had two vocal crises as a young singer, both occasioned by leaving Melocchi and singing lighter repertoire as a lyric tenor. Whether this proves the rigidity of Melocchi's technique or the freeing power of it is ambiguous.
> 
> For anyone who doubts that Del Monaco was more than a belter, I suggest they listen to Filippeschi's first scene from the 1953 Callas studio _Norma_. Then listen to Del Monaco's 1955 radio _Norma_ with Callas, that whole first scene. The difference in depth of characterization, degree of vocal shading and coloring, and flexibility of voice is striking. He was a variable artist, certainly, but he _was_ an artist.


He is an asset in a lot of recordings. Speaking of Callas, it's worth considering that Del Monaco's debut was also back in the early '40s - 1940 for him, 1941 for her - so by the time the 1960s are coming around he is something of a veteran and the heavy repertoire he sang is a factor.

I think his Don Alvaro was remarkably well sung, notably here with Mitropoulos:





Another excellent live performance with Mitropoulos was in Fanciulla del West:


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

vivalagentenuova said:


> For anyone who doubts that Del Monaco was more than a belter, *I suggest they listen to Filippeschi's first scene from the 1953 Callas studio Norma*. Then listen to Del Monaco's 1955 radio _Norma_ with Callas, that whole first scene. The difference in depth of characterization, degree of vocal shading and coloring, and flexibility of voice is striking. He was a variable artist, certainly, but he _was_ an artist.


PS: I fully agree that Filippeschi was often rather compromised in the ways you describe, but just the mention of his name conjures memories of those live recordings of killer parts like Arrigo in _I Vespri Siciliani_ and Arnoldo in Guglielmo Tell

Giorno di pianto





O muto asil





Given the subject of the thread, I'd make a qualified recommendation - is a sotto-voce-shout-out a thing? :lol: - that while there are times when you might very well avoid Filippeschi, sometimes he is worth a listen.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Placido Domingo is one of those singers I don't understand the hype around, but also one where I don't quite understand the haters. imo, he's an okay singer, not terrible, but definitely not someone who belongs among the ranks of Corelli, del Monaco or Melchior. Alas, not many people are. Imo, connoisseurs of older singers (speaking as one myself) can be a bit black and white in terms of "this is the one way to sing correctly. These 10 singers are the gold standard and everyone else is terrible". It's okay to say "this singer is decent" or "this singer is fairly good" once in awhile.

exception: the only thing that triggers a strong emotion in me is when he thinks he can just turn around and sing baritone rep, as if he sounds remotely similar to a baritone. The heldentenor rep isn't _that_ different from his natural voice, but he has as much business singing heavy baritone rep as Anna Moffo has singing Azucena. It's totally off in every conceivable way.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I earlier stated that I did not care for Pavarotti. I just finished a DVD of L'elisir d'amore with him and Blegin, It is not my favorite L'elisir, but Belgin is very nice and Pavarotti grew on me a bit. If only his stage presence were not so "big" I might appreciate him more. I have another L'elisir with him and Battle that I have yet to watch, so maybe he will grow on me a bit more. Not that I will seek him out, but I might better appreciate his L'amico Fritz recording that I have of course because I had to have all L'amico Fritz recordings.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

SixFootScowl said:


> I earlier stated that I did not care for Pavarotti. I just finished a DVD of L'elisir d'amore with him and Blegin, It is not my favorite L'elisir, but Belgin is very nice and Pavarotti grew on me a bit. If only his stage presence were not so "big" I might appreciate him more. I have another L'elisir with him and Battle that I have yet to watch, so maybe he will grow on me a bit more. Not that I will seek him out, but I might better appreciate his L'amico Fritz recording that I have of course because I had to have all L'amico Fritz recordings.


What is it about Pavarotti's singing that you don't like?


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## eblackadder (10 mo ago)

Pavarotti
Del Monaco
Corelli
Sutherland


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

eblackadder said:


> Pavarotti
> Del Monaco
> Corelli
> Sutherland


...........Why?


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## Agamenon (Apr 22, 2019)

Netrebko
Sills
Domingo
Villazón
Sutherland
Cotrubas


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Agamenon said:


> Netrebko
> Sills
> Domingo
> Villazón
> ...


Is it because they don't sing *Elektra*? Wait a year, Netrebko will probably essay it! :lol::lol::lol:


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

Anyone who is singing Wozzek or Lulu for a start! At least on that particular evening!


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## gsdkfasdf (11 mo ago)

Unsurprisingly, dramatic soprano Netrebko and her husband. 

Baritone Domingo. Domingo in his prime I'd listen to, but there are a long list of baritones that I would rather listen to than Domingo in anything that's baritone. 

I don't like to listen to anything that's too old extensively because the sound quality is generally questionable, but for the most part listening to extracts is fine. Hate the quality of recordings, but I love Ponselle. It's just difficult to deal with the quality sometimes because it gets distracting. I wish better recordings were around...I feel like I'm missing out on so much.


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## Aerobat (Dec 31, 2018)

Like the previous poster, I also avoid most recordings before around the mid 80s, due to the poor quality. Of course, there are exceptions, such as the Callas / di Stefano Trovatore and the Pavarotti / Sutherland / Caballe Turandot.

There are two things *for me* that matter most, whether in theatre or on recordings. Firstly, the cast has to fit their roles. Florez suits the role of Nemorino very well, but is not suited to 'larger' roles. Similarly, I find that Dessay makes a lovely Violetta but she's wise enough to know which roles she *can't* sing. Secondly, the whole cast has to work together as an ensemble. I struggle with the concept of one 'star' singer being able to define a performance; everyone who's involved has to fit together to create a whole. That includes conductor, orchestra, singers.

Now, just to be difficult, of course there are some singers I avoid. Late-career Netrebko is truly dreadful as an example and is capable of ruining a performance all by herself. Klaus Florian Vogt is unmentionable (although he might be OK in Gilbert and Sullivan instead of his attempts at Wagner).


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

I considered making a thread at one point called "That one singer" that would basically just be about how (it seems anyway) there's often a particular signer who shows up in many recordings and is just a fly in the ointment. For me, "that one singer" is Gianni Poggi. Maybe his voice came off differently in person, but on records it is quite unappealing, and I am not a fan of his interpretations. There have been many recordings from the 50s with otherwise excellent casts that I just didn't go for because I saw his name. In a way it's a blessing, as it's saved me some money over the years...


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

...............No............


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Isn't it kute.








Feel free to use it as a meme or an emoticon on this subforum.


Woodduck said:


> Remember this unspeakable horror?


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

marlow said:


> Anyone who is singing Wozzek or Lulu for a start! At least on that particular evening!


 But they sing in other operas and you will not hear them sing Wozzek or Lulu at the same time you hear them sing those operas. I like Lulu.

I am not so demanding so I will not mention any names.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Opera is not only an entertainment, but also an investigation. So I'm like a spider checking its web. 
Someone mentioned this above, but I'll repeat, quoting Peter Ustinov. He said that unlike Poirot, who insisted on drinking good wine only, one should drink any wine, at least to feel the difference. Thus I usually don't avoid almost any singers, what doesn't mean I don't prefer anyone. 
If I nevertheless avoid someone, it occurs from time to time in the opera house I use to visit. Even then I rather choose whom I like than avoid anybody.


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## sAmUiLc (9 mo ago)

Renée Fleming, Roberto Alagna, Natalie Dessay.. I feel pain typing their names even. I don't consider Klaus Florian Vogt and Andrea Bocelli (my friend Charlie famously called him 'the blind singer for the deaf people' in an interview with a local paper) opera singers. They are fake, fraud.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

I tolerate John Vicker because of other great singers who are on opera recordings with him. But if I could somehow replace him there, I certainly would. Such a weird timbre !


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BBSVK said:


> I tolerate John Vicker because of other great singers who are on opera recordings with him. But if I could somehow replace him there, I certainly would. Such a weird timbre !


Jon Vickers is one of my favourite tenors. I love the timbre of his voice and, in certain roles (Otello, Florestan, Tristan, Siegmund, Grimes, Aeneas) I find him incomparable. I think his voice had a sort of burnished beauty which, allied to his dramatic intensity, made him one of the greatest operatic artists of his day.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Pavarotti, Bartoli


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## damianjb1 (Jan 1, 2016)

Gwyneth Jones
Agnes Baltsa
Eva Marton


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## ericshreiber1005 (7 mo ago)

Pavarotti, then on DVD Eaglen and Heppner their Tristan and Isolde. Holy smokes I worried they would sink the boat!😜


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## Viardots (Oct 4, 2014)

Mado Robin
Lily Pons


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

I will avoid most modern recordings of the standard repertoire as there are so many recordings of Il Trovatore, for example, that I don't see any point spending time listening to recordings with a poor cast or maybe a cast with a single member who I somewhat like; Saioa Hernandez, Martin Muehle, etc.

Since it would be pointless to list the countless examples of modern singers that I am fairly allergic to I will list a few singers who can spoil a well cast recording for me if they happen to be cast in a major role.

Renata Scotto (I have enjoyed clips of her Suor Angelica but mostly I just feel like she's screeching.)
Placido Domingo (if he's in a smaller role I will make do, it's an okay voice, but never understood why he was cast in so many leading roles.)
Mado Robin (mentioned by the above poster, luckily she's not in many recordings but she sounds like a squeak toy and appears only to be famous for singing some very high notes.)
Sherrill Milnes (never liked his voice but good low male voices seem to be the first type that died out so I can sort of see why he was given so many roles.)
Gianni Poggi (okay, I don't mind him in some things, he is an okay Enzo in the Callas Gioconda, and actually slightly better even at the met with Milanov a few years later, but I just cannot stand him in that recording of La Favorita with Simionato. Most of the time his name props up I just sort of wish they had picked somebody else.)
Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau (one singer I avoid at any cost, so many Bayreuth recordings that could have been excellent but he really doesn't do them any favours.)
Elisabeth Schwarzkopf (Never really understood the appeal. I don't _hate_ her, but there were so many better singers at that time.)
Joan Sutherland (I like some things earlier in her career, mostly where pure vocalism is required over drama. Her 1962 Scala Semiramide is good, her early Alcina, Art of the Primma Donna, but NEVER as Norma or Violetta, Anna Bolena, Maria Stuarda etc. her diction really irks me, combined with the lack of drama, lack of lower register etc. just rules her out most of the time.)
Marylin Horne (If I need any more reason not to listen to a Sutherland recording this is usually it.)
Nicolai Gedda (in his earlier career I don't mind him too much, he would just never be a reason for listening to a recording. But he became a very good reason for not listening to a recording later in his career.)
Wolfgang Windgassen (his voice is just too light for the repertoire he sung.)
Eberhard Waechter (No thank you.)
Victoria de Los Angeles (I like her Lauretta but generally I just don't click with her. Her voice is pretty, but not beautiful, and I've never really been a fan of 'pretty'.)
Callas in lighter roles (I adore Callas in the more dramatic repertoire; Norma, Anna Bolena, Gioconda, Medea, Ballo in Maschera, Tosca, Traviata even but I really don't like the way she lightens her voice for Lucia, Gilda, Butterfly, Mimi etc.)

Interesting too are singers that I like and feel enhance recordings but many others appear to dislike.

Astrid Varnay (I can see exactly why some people don't like her, but for roles like Elektra and Ortrud she is perfect. Her Kundry is great and she is by far and away my favourite Senta, she has an otherworldliness which suits the character so well. As one critic put it, she sounds like she has one foot in another world.)
Zinka Milanov (I can understand this one too, but sometimes her singing can be so gorgeous. Her Trovatore Leonora is excellent, unfortunately the recording is let down by fairly non-descript conducting. Her early Gioconda is superb as is her Forza Leonora and her Maddalena in Chenier in 1954 is pretty good too.)
Mario del Monaco (Exciting and involved. And I love exciting and involved far more than subtlety.)
Gunther Treptow (A good heldentenor. Not in the league of Melchior but not bad at all. No idea why some people seem to try to avoid him all together.)
Leonard Warren (his technique really wasn't as bad as some seem to think. It was certainly different but this was still a great voice, I do prefer him earlier in his career though.)


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

MAS said:


> I love Maria Callas, Franco Corell, Rolando Villazon, Roberto Alagna because they sing with passion. The rest are OK.
> The ones I purposely avoid on record are:
> 
> Cécilia Bartoli (except for her first Rossini CD and _Sposa son disprezzata_)
> ...


Except for Scotto and Nebs (Fleming too because of her gorgeous velvet voice) I agree with your list and add an Albanese


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Op.123 said:


> Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau (one singer I avoid at any cost, so many Bayreuth recordings that could have been excellent but he really doesn't do them any favours.)


The only role that he sang at Bayreuth with any frequency was Wolfram. I'm not a huge fan of DFD in opera, but I think that he was certainly well-suited to that particular role. He sang Amfortas a couple of seasons, and I think Kothner one year - that's about it. Fortunately, he never sang Sachs, Wotan, or the Dutchman at Bayreuth, to the best of my knowledge.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

wkasimer said:


> The only role that he sang at Bayreuth with any frequency was Wolfram. I'm not a huge fan of DFD in opera, but I think that he was certainly well-suited to that particular role. He sang Amfortas a couple of seasons, and I think Kothner one year - that's about it. Fortunately, he never sang Sachs, Wotan, or the Dutchman at Bayreuth, to the best of my knowledge.


I was specifically thinking of the 1954(?) Tannhauser and could have sworn there were some other roles, but one role is still one too many.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> Except for Scotto and Nebs (Fleming too because of her gorgeous velvet voice) I agree with your list and add an Albanese


Oops! I missed your diss on Sutherland. I simply thought then, and still DO believe today that not one soprano ever had a better high voice than La Stupenda. She acquired that mushy middle (with help from her husband) after the Art of the Prima Donna which was a masterful disc.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

After reading all of these it is surprising that any of you like any of the singers in my contests with the exception of Maria  . My odd isolated operatic background likely accounts for why many singers I like are verbotten for the majority of you . Thanks you kindly for your forbearance and your continuing to so beautifully take part in the many roundsl !!!!


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

adriesba said:


> If I really want to hear something, I'll deal with any singer. But anyway -
> 
> Placido Domingo
> José Carreras
> ...


I like evry one of those singers (some more than others)


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

JanacekTheGreat said:


> Yes, I have a blacklist. Here is it ranked from "always avoid" to "quite often avoid":
> 
> Domingo
> The Netrebko's
> ...


Except for Bartoli, everyone of those singers are wondrful and good examples of the opera world
And even Bartoli isn't horrible. It's just her fast typewriter action that gets me crazy -- othrwise she is actually a fine singer.

Okay so here's my very short list of no-nos.

Albanese
Antonenko
Cura
Jagde


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## PaulFranz (May 7, 2019)

I almost never listen to full recordings of operas, and when I do they're almost always from before 1940, so no, nothing to avoid, really. Singers were good back then. By the time full recordings started becoming the norm, singing was so bad (outside the USSR) that it's just not worth it except for rôle study, and then I just pick the one with the best singer in my rôle.


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## PaulFranz (May 7, 2019)

dave2708 said:


> Who do i avoid.
> Numero Uno is Jose Carreras.
> Anytime he attempts a high note it sounds like someone dropped a safe on his foot.
> 
> ...


Thinking that Lemeshev and Pishchaev bark Italian rep is an interesting one...


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## PaulFranz (May 7, 2019)

IgorS said:


> What do you expect from dramatic tenor? Fioritura? He produced his notes exactly the way opera notes should be produced. He never was woofy, aspirated, nasal, or constricted.


It's really funny how infrequently dramatic tenors--even the earliest ones we have on record--show signs of vocal agility. Basses and baritones are (were) infinitely more likely to do runs and trills, and they're heavier and darker instruments. My list of trillers is full of basses, has a couple baritones, and then two dramatic tenors: Escalaïs and Affre. Jadlowker was a good spinto who had runs, and that's probably only because he was Jewish--Sirota, Kwartin, and Rosenblatt probably would've done (at least some) dramatic rep too had they focused on opera, and they could run and trill like no other. Tucker, another Jew, was on the cusp of dramatic and also was capable of any agility you could ask for.

But by and large, dramatic tenors in the Western canon just don't do agility. As the Jews show, it's clearly possible. Something about the style expected? Late-1800s trends that have continued? Death of the high-lying dramatic French-speaking tenor in favor of lower guys like Franz, de Trévi, Luccioni, etc.?


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## PaulFranz (May 7, 2019)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> yes, 100%
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Holy cow I didn't know Solov'janenko before right now!! What a VOICE! Sounded great all the way to the late 80s, too. Man, Soviet vocal decline was decades behind Western vocal decline. Add him to the pile of great singers from the USSR and Russian empire before it. Ukrainians, Russians, Jews, Latvians, Bashkirs, Armenians, etc. all singing their guts out with focus and control.

Further proof that wealth and comfort destroy art! (Not even sure if I'm kidding)


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

PaulFranz said:


> Holy cow I didn't know Solov'janenko before right now!! What a VOICE! Sounded great all the way to the late 80s, too. Man, Soviet vocal decline was decades behind Western vocal decline. Add him to the pile of great singers from the USSR and Russian empire before it. Ukrainians, Russians, Jews, Latvians, Bashkirs, Armenians, etc. all singing their guts out with focus and control.
> 
> Further proof that wealth and comfort destroy art! (Not even sure if I'm kidding)


You might also enjoy the Ukrainian baritone Mykola Kondratyuk. Both my favorite tenor and favorite baritone are friggin communist lmao (and I say this as someone who is very economically right wing)


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## Montarsolo (5 mo ago)

I only have one on the black list: Domingo as baritone. Heard it on the radio: it’s a no go. I don't have a blacklist and I don't leave recordings because of a certain singer. But there are a few which I am not a fan of.

Ian Bostridgde / Peter Pears: too weak, too feminine
Leo Nucci: too light for a baritone
Scotto / Ricciarelli: can be very beautiful but also sharp and painful. Varies a lot per recording
Dieskau: Have many recordings of him but he sounds so haughty and self-righteous. However, for some opera roles that is an advantage. He is a great count in Le nozze di Figaro for example.
Del Monaco: sings everything loud
Claire Watsons: I absolutely dislike her Donna Anna in Klemperer’s Don Giovanni.
Sutherland: I don't avoid her but I do get annoyed by her diction. She sings in a kind of Esperanto


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Montarsolo said:


> Sutherland: I don't avoid her but I do get annoyed by her diction. She sings in a kind of Esperanto


Haha. To this I would only say that Sutherland's is a mirror image of Esperanto, which was intended to be understood by everyone. Sutherland's phonations are understood by no one.


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## Montarsolo (5 mo ago)

Rehabilitation! I listened to a (yesterday received) vinyl record tonight; a live recording of Dowland songs, sung by Peter Pears with Julian Bream lute. Beautiful sung and very musical. Touchingly beautiful!


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## daveza (Aug 13, 2018)

Such an interesting thread, I would love to understand how our tastes develop and differ so widely.

So many of those mentioned here as to be avoided, for others are a staple diet - Alagna, Domingo,Villazon, Cappuccilli and Corelli personally come to mind.

I'm not a fan of Birgit Nilsson but I wouldn't have any other Turandot, there are a host of tenors I would prefer listening to far more than Vickers, but he will always be my go-to Grimes.

The names I would avoid are those who I just find boring and who couldn't raise the hairs on my neck in a hurricane.
Kraus, Gruberova, Fischer-Dieskau, Beczala, Horne, Bartoli, Baltsa - I'm not suggesting they are not overflowing with technical perfection but what is opera without passion.

I was pleased to see a few names not mentioned at all ( I think ) - Te Kanawa, Di Stefano, even Battle..


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

daveza said:


> Such an interesting thread, I would love to understand how our tastes develop and differ so widely.
> 
> So many of those mentioned here as to be avoided, for others are a staple diet - Alagna, Domingo,Villazon, Cappuccilli and Corelli personally come to mind.
> 
> ...


I agree with some things here, but Baltsa? Boring?


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

nina foresti said:


> Except for Bartoli, everyone of those singers are wondrful and good examples of the opera world
> And even Bartoli isn't horrible. It's just her fast typewriter action that gets me crazy -- othrwise she is actually a fine singer.
> 
> Okay so here's my very short list of no-nos.
> ...


I never got Albanese and I am partial to idiosyncratic Italian verismo singers like Favero and Olivero and Zamboni. It's not just the desiccated sounding middle. She cannot sing softly above the stave. She varies dynamics in other registers but there's no float in the higher register that I can hear.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Op.123 said:


> I agree with some things here, but Baltsa? Boring?


I had the same reaction. I also would say that Horne, Bartoli and Fischer-Dieskau may be too idiosyncratic for some, but not exactly boring.

Also, I'm glad somebody has mentioned Te Kanawa. That's a singer I avoid other than as the Countess in Nozze.

N.


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## daveza (Aug 13, 2018)

Op.123 said:


> I agree with some things here, but Baltsa? Boring?


Perhaps that was a bit harsh, she's just not on my shortlist as far as Verdi or Bizet are concerned.
I realise that's a very narrow sample and I should probably explore more of her work.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

daveza said:


> Perhaps that was a bit harsh, she's just not on my shortlist as far as Verdi or Bizet are concerned.
> I realise that's a very narrow sample and I should probably explore more of her work.


It's definitely worth trying her Rossini. There's also a recital disc on Orfeo that's very good.

N.


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