# Brahms vs Beethoven



## maestro267

The two heavyweights of multiple-instrument concerti face off in this epic vote to decide, once and for all, which piece is greater!

So, which is it to be? Brahms' Double or Beethoven's Triple. Use your vote wisely.

*PS. Apologies for the preceding excess. Forgot to turn epic mode off.


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## Polednice

Braaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahms

*drools*


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## Lukecash12

Beethoven all the way. Brahms is wonderful, but Beethoven is immaculate. He is Mozart, Rammeau, and Bach, plus the angst of Vivaldi and Verdi. That sounds crazy without you even having to say Beethoven, but that's what he is.


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## Polednice

Correction:



Lukecash12 said:


> _Beethoven_ is wonderful, but _Brahms_ is immaculate. _He is incomparable with any other composers, for he is the pinnacle of musical perfection, and presents us with the sounds that the human brain had been waiting to hear for 200,000 years since homo sapiens walked the Earth!_


_

_


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## Weston

I figure three instruments is better than two, so . . .

Actually I need to be more familiar with the Brahms. I'll try to give it another listen tonight. Maybe it's better off without a piano, as I often find Brahms' piano works too far down in the muddy lower keys for me to tell what's going on. Maybe his hearing was a lot better than mine.


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## Classical Review

I'm not sure if I think Brahms' work _is_ better, but I certainly LIKE it better.

FK


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## Polednice

Classical Review said:


> I'm not sure if I think Brahms' work _is_ better, but I certainly LIKE it better.
> 
> FK


Surely there is no better measurement of the worth of a piece of art than your personal response to it.


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## World Violist

I like Beethoven the composer better, but given the choice of these two pieces, Brahms' double concerto just takes the cake.


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## Classical Review

Polednice said:


> Surely there is no better measurement of the worth of a piece of art than your personal response to it.


That takes us into the dangerous territory of relativism. I'm happy to go there - but I generally hold the belief that some art is better than other art.

FK


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## Polednice

Classical Review said:


> That takes us into the dangerous territory of relativism. I'm happy to go there - but I generally hold the belief that some art is better than other art.
> 
> FK


I won't start up that debate, as it requires talk at great length, but I don't think assessing art on personal response is mutually exclusive from the idea that some art is better than other art. I think it would be naive to suggest that our assessment of artistic merit can be _wholly_ derived from arbitrary objective criteria that no person in history can really have the authority to dictate.

Anyway, subjectively or objectively, Brahms wins hands down! :d


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## Sid James

I don't really care, I enjoy both. Both are memorable, show great levels of craftsmanship, and have an emotional impact on the listener. That's all I need for a great work of art...


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## handlebar

Tough choice but I will go with Beethoven.

Jim


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## Artemis

maestro267 said:


> The two heavyweights of multiple-instrument concerti face off in this epic vote to decide, once and for all, which piece is greater!
> 
> So, which is it to be? Brahms' Double or Beethoven's Triple. Use your vote wisely.
> 
> *PS. Apologies for the preceding excess. Forgot to turn epic mode off.


I must say that I think you could added a few more multiple-instrument concerti to make this poll more interesting than merely (stodgy old) Beethoven and Brahms offerings.

Other splendid works of similar ilk that come to mind are *Bach'*s Brandenburg Concertos, *Double Violin Concerto, Handel's* Concerto Grossi, *Vivaldi's* Four Seasons, *Corelli's *Concerto Grossi, M*ozart's* Sinfonia Concertante for Strings (K 364) and Sinfonia Concertante for Winds (K297a), and the Flute & Harp Concerto (K 299), *Bartok's* Concerto for Orchestra.

My preferences would be:

1. Mozart K 364
2. Handel Concerto Gross Op 6/7
3. Bach Brandenburg Concerto No 2
4. Bach Double Violin Concerto
5. Vivaldi 4 Seasons (even though I'm bored with it, it's still great)
5. Mozart K 297a
6. Bartok Concerto for Orchestra
7. *Beethoven* Triple
8. Bach Brandenburg No 5
9. Handel Concerto Grosso Op 6/6
10. *Brahms* Double


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## Lukecash12

Polednice said:


> Correction:
> 
> Beethoven is wonderful, but Brahms is immaculate. _He is incomparable with any other composers, for he is the pinnacle of musical perfection, and presents us with the sounds that the human brain had been waiting to hear for 200,000 years since homo sapiens walked the Earth!
> 
> _


_

If we want to jump on that bandwagon, I'd have to say Scriabin any day over Brahms as the pinnacle of music perfection. Either him or Sorabji.

What's so bad about Beethoven? He brings to us the many varied forms of the *Angst*._


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## Polednice

Lukecash12 said:


> What's so bad about Beethoven? He brings to us the many varied forms of the *Angst*.


Hey, I said Beethoven was wonderful, not bad! Besides, Brahms was the _ultimate_ craftsman, and his music is much more devastating than that of Beethoven.

I am truly shocked and appalled that anybody could ever suggest otherwise


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## Lukecash12

Actually, I see exactly where the divide lies. You probably love symphonic music, I'm guessing. But I'm a pianist, so even though I adore symphonic music just as much, I can relate more to Beethoven. This isn't saying Brahms didn't make great piano music, only that he was more of a symphonic composer. Often though, I find Beethoven's concertos more of a reward to study than Brahms.

Beethoven's concertos are great for developing a sonorous and healthy touch in a pianist. It also gives them the rundown in phrasing, bravado, and elegance in general. If it didn't, then people would sound like Sheiza playing the Emperor concerto.


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## Polednice

Lukecash12 said:


> Actually, I see exactly where the divide lies. You probably love symphonic music, I'm guessing. But I'm a pianist, so even though I adore symphonic music just as much, I can relate more to Beethoven. This isn't saying Brahms didn't make great piano music, only that he was more of a symphonic composer. Often though, I find Beethoven's concertos more of a reward to study than Brahms.
> 
> Beethoven's concertos are great for developing a sonorous and healthy touch in a pianist. It also gives them the rundown in phrasing, bravado, and elegance in general. If it didn't, then people would sound like Sheiza playing the Emperor concerto.


Actually, I see where you're coming from. I have to admit that, as a pianist myself, I can't deny that I would place Beethoven's piano output above that of Brahms - including the concertos - however masterful all of Brahms's works are, and however much I cherish his music above all others.

When it comes to the repertoire of the piano, I find myself heavily siding towards Beethoven and Schubert. However, though I don't quite know why, I'm not a great fan of _listening_ to piano solo music; I prefer to undertake it as a personal excursion with my own practise and performance. Thus, as I prefer to _listen_ to orchestral/symphonic works, you're quite right to point out where my bias stems, and perhaps I shouldn't be so quick to dismiss other music I didn't listen to quite so often


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## Conor71

I am more familiar with Beethovens Triple so it gets my vote!


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## Lukecash12

Polednice said:


> Actually, I see where you're coming from. I have to admit that, as a pianist myself, I can't deny that I would place Beethoven's piano output above that of Brahms - including the concertos - however masterful all of Brahms's works are, and however much I cherish his music above all others.
> 
> When it comes to the repertoire of the piano, I find myself heavily siding towards Beethoven and Schubert. However, though I don't quite know why, I'm not a great fan of _listening_ to piano solo music; I prefer to undertake it as a personal excursion with my own practise and performance. Thus, as I prefer to _listen_ to orchestral/symphonic works, you're quite right to point out where my bias stems, and perhaps I shouldn't be so quick to dismiss other music I didn't listen to quite so often


Oh no, your opinion is just as valid. It's just that we appreciate different forms of music more than one another. That is mainly why I'm so huge on Alkan. He brought the symphony to the piano! That sounds almost like carrying a block of granite and dropping it in a small drinking glass. 

But you're definitely right that Brahms wrote the best small violin works (for example: trios and quartets) and a great deal of epic symphonic works.


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## starry

I don't think Brahms himself would have considered that he was in the same league as Beethoven concerning his overall output. 

Hard for me to comment on the two works compared in this thread as I haven't heard either for a while. I don't think I've ever completely liked either, but the first movement of the Beethoven certainly has some tunes.


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## Polednice

starry said:


> I don't think Brahms himself would have considered that he was in the same league as Beethoven concerning his overall output.


I think that _any_ well-established and well-loved artist would _never_ equate themselves with a genius who preceded them, as any serious artist of any integrity would have the humility to recognise that no work is perfect, and it is not for them to determine what place in history their compositions should take. That doesn't mean to say, however, that _we_ can't equate such geniuses as we gaze upon them in awe.


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## Lukecash12

Polednice said:


> I think that _any_ well-established and well-loved artist would _never_ equate themselves with a genius who preceded them, as any serious artist of any integrity would have the humility to recognise that no work is perfect, and it is not for them to determine what place in history their compositions should take. That doesn't mean to say, however, that _we_ can't equate such geniuses as we gaze upon them in awe.


Well said. I definitely agree with you (although I still like Beethoven better than Brahms).


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## Classical Review

Polednice said:


> ... I don't think assessing art on personal response is mutually exclusive from the idea that some art is better than other art. I think it would be naive to suggest that our assessment of artistic merit can be _wholly_ derived from arbitrary objective criteria that no person in history can really have the authority to dictate.


This response from you, sir, is a breath of fresh air on a forum. So often, you find people ready to set themselves up as arbiters of what is and is not 'good'. And you are, of course, correct - there is no objective and infallible criteria by which such can be judged in matters of art.

Which, in a way, brings me back to my original answer. I've no idea which of the two works might be considered 'better' or 'best' in the eyes and ears of those who claim they know. I just happen to enjoy Beethoven's work more than I do Brahms'.

FK


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## Morimur

Beethoven beats anyone not named JS Bach.


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## Art Rock

For me, both are less attractive than their other concertos. That said, Brahms' double concerto is my clear pick between these two.


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## Brahmsian Colors

Sid James said:


> I don't really care, I enjoy both. Both are memorable, show great levels of craftsmanship, and have an emotional impact on the listener. That's all I need for a great work of art...


Though overall I much prefer Brahms' music to Beethoven's, I do enjoy both pieces immensely. Along with Dvorak's Cello Concerto, these three are my favorites among all concertos.


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## KenOC

I voted Beethoven because I thought the poll was simply Beethoven vs Brahms. But in fact I'd rate the double above Beethoven's triple. Oh well.


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## Merl

No contest for me. I'm sure those who know what I collect won't be surprised by my vote for LvB.


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## Pugg

Beethoven hands down.


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## Guest

Beethovens triple conceerto.


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## Judith

I love them both equally. They were totally different composers and had their own individual styles.


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