# Music: Logic versus emotion



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Sometimes music seems to exist between two poles: Rationality and emotion.

Bach, on the one hand, seems the ultimate rational and logical composer, with astonishing mental and musical powers. But do his supremely rational works, existing comfortably in both the Newtonian clockwork and faith-based universes, lack emotional appeal?

Tchaikovsky, on the other, is often labeled a composer “with his heart on his sleeve.” But do his works, which seem emotionally excessive to some, lack an intellectual rigor that sharpens their appeal?

In short, does this often-discussed opposition between “head” and “heart” mean anything at all? What do you think?


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## ST4 (Oct 27, 2016)

Intriguingly enough, I've seen the same kinds of questions on rock, metal and jazz forums. Interestingly enough there seems to be a general confusion between music fans of many genres between the what is technicality and what is emotion. Not that I have anything else to add, but I do kinda see them as they same thing. Just sort of different angles of the same thing. 

But then, logic can be analysed and emotion can't, right?


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

I really doubt I'm the only one who can have an emotional reaction to reason and logic (Mathematicians supposedly love Bach - his music is "mathematical" but for a mathematician this means it's _beautiful_). And it's not possible to compose music that produces an emotional reaction without using the intellect. There are of course differences between "head" and "heart", but their supposed perennial conflict is, in reality, bunkum.


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2017)

Nereffid said:


> their supposed perennial conflict is, in reality, bunkum.


I'd say that was a strong emotional reaction to a false dichotomy. I expected something a little more logical. It's clear which camp you _really _belong in.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

KenOC said:


> Sometimes music seems to exist between two poles: Rationality and emotion.


we-e-e-e-ell.....


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## hagridindminor (Nov 5, 2015)

I don't think it's fair to say that Bach was logical and not emotional, different time period and music is expressed differently. 

I think emotion would overall be better than logic in terms of music but emotion is unpredictable and can turn on and off while a more steadier foundation is more reliable. Plus emotion can often be faked or imitated in which case its better to go with a more steadier sound. Overall though, both are required especially in classical.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Anyone who thinks Bach's music is not emotional should listen to his two main Passions.


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## ST4 (Oct 27, 2016)

Art Rock said:


> Anyone who thinks Bach's music is not emotional should listen to his two main Passions.


Yes that, or any Bach quite honestly :tiphat:


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Bach, on the one hand, seems the ultimate rational and logical composer, with astonishing mental and musical powers. But do his supremely rational works, existing comfortably in both the Newtonian clockwork and faith-based universes, lack emotional appeal?
> 
> Tchaikovsky, on the other, is often labeled a composer "with his heart on his sleeve." But do his works, which seem emotionally excessive to some, lack an intellectual rigor that sharpens their appeal?


It's unlikely that Bach would have described his music as logical, at least not the elderly Bach who chose increasingly anti-reason texts for his cantatas-coinciding, tellingly enough, with the rise of the Enlightenment, which shows us where Bach's allegiances were. Still less would logic have been seen as opposed to emotion. (If Bach's choice of cantata texts is any indication, it was faith rather than emotion that was seen as the antithesis of logic.) That the two could happily coexist is demonstrated by the philosophical doctrine Baroque composers constructed around that very coexistence: _Affectenlehre_, "theory of emotions."

Meanwhile, for all that Tchaikovsky's music seems to convey emotion, it does so through the kind of purely technical craft that could be expected of any conservatory-trained composer. It seems fitting that at a time of romantic specialization, with composers giving special attention to specific genres fitting their personalities, that Tchaikovsky's output is distinctly "Classical" in its demonstrated mastery of all the major genres, a mastery accomplished by a distinctly calculated use of musical conventions.

So yes, the dichotomy of logic and emotion is of fairly recent vintage. It did play a huge role in the reception of 20th century music (and in the 20th- and 21st century's reception of older music), but the dichotomy is largely anachronistic for Tchaikovsky and definitely anachronistic for Bach.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

KenOC said:


> Sometimes music seems to exist between two poles: Rationality and emotion.
> In short, does this often-discussed opposition between "head" and "heart" mean anything at all? What do you think?


For me - music needs both - it has to provoke some sort of "emotional", or heartfelt response; but it also must challenge me intellectually - the form, the skill, the artistry of composition - something that challenges me to discover more thru repeated listening.
I need both.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Nereffid said:


> And it's not possible to compose music that produces an emotional reaction without using the intellect.


Do you think that it's the composition or the performance of the composition which produces the emotional reaction?


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Mandryka said:


> Do you think that it's the composition or the performance of the composition which produces the emotional reaction?


It's the performance of what is composed...


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Sometimes music seems to exist between two poles: Rationality and emotion.
> 
> Bach, on the one hand, seems the ultimate rational and logical composer, with astonishing mental and musical powers. But do his supremely rational works, existing comfortably in both the Newtonian clockwork and faith-based universes, lack emotional appeal?
> 
> ...


I think that some people see a piece of canonical writing by (e.g.) Bach, the final fugue of the St. Matthew Passion for example, and see that it involved a certain amount of calculation for its construction, and then conclude that the essence (whatever that means) of the music is calculation, despite the expressiveness of the melodies and harmonies.

And they may think about the final movement of the Pathétique, together with its associated backstory about Tchaikovsky's life, and conclude that it is essentially emotional, despite the calculation used in its construction.

Is this what you had in mind? Anyway, you just have to spell out the reasoning to see how poor it is.

A better example to think about maybe would be Cage's piano études.


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## bigboy (May 26, 2017)

Eschbeg said:


> the elderly Bach who chose increasingly anti-reason texts for his cantatas-coinciding, tellingly enough, with the rise of the Enlightenment, which shows us where Bach's allegiances were.


This is a great observation: indeed, even looking at the time periods involved I can only assume that Bach's formative years as a composer and artist were before the Enlightenment really got rolling in Germany. As you suggest, I've always found it more interesting and exciting to listen to Bach (J.S.) as a pre-enlightenment man being dragged into a new type of world.

KenOC brings up the idea of Bach living in a Newtonian mindset, which I think is a double disservice  both because of the reasons you mentioned but also because it ignores poor Leibniz! I think in many ways Leibniz can be viewed as a very transitional thinker between two modes of thought, somewhere between Medieval philosophical and rationalist thought and 
later Enlightenment thinkers like Kant.
I think it is telling that Leibniz was also a deeply spiritual man and this had a very deep influence on even his scientific thought.

What I'm pointing at is that perhaps a fruitful way to engage with Bach is to think of him as living and making music in a Leibnizian universe!


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Eschbeg said:


> It's unlikely that Bach would have described his music as logical, at least not the elderly Bach who chose increasingly anti-reason texts for his cantatas-coinciding, tellingly enough, with the rise of the Enlightenment, which shows us where Bach's allegiances were. Still less would logic have been seen as opposed to emotion. (If Bach's choice of cantata texts is any indication, it was faith rather than emotion that was seen as the antithesis of logic.) That the two could happily coexist is demonstrated by the philosophical doctrine Baroque composers constructed around that very coexistence: _Affectenlehre_, "theory of emotions."


An example would be good, of a cantata with an "anti-reason" text.

I don't know the cantatas very well. But I note that the climax of Musical Offering was a galant trio sonata, not a fugue. A piece of music as "emotional" as a Tchaikovsky quartet. Indeed Opfer seems the key piece to think about here, since it is clearly about the application of reason - it was about using reason to work out the canons. But it is also a rhetorical argument, its structure follows a fairly classical rhetorical scheme. And so was designed to seduce, woo, the listener, emotionally,
. There's an interesting paper on this by Olivier Dantone.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I hear 'emotion' in Bach, in the way the harmony changes and builds, and tensions are built and released. I dare say that these 'emotional' factors do the majority of their work work in the abstract, apart from any aspect of performance. 

In this sense, the 'logic' of the musical ideas is what initially produces the response. Of course, hearing Anthony Newman on a ten-foot harpsichord doesn't hurt.

So musical ideas, in themselves, have an intrinsic dramatic/gestural aspect which are capable of producing 'emotional' responses, and the performance can increase this response.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Art Rock said:


> Anyone who thinks Bach's music is not emotional should listen to his two main Passions.


I think Ken has heard the heard the bits with big catchy tunes.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Mandryka said:


> I think Ken has heard the heard the bits with big catchy tunes.


If Stokowski didn't orchestrate it, I don't like it!

Well, except for the Swingle Singers.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

The logic of emotions - you cant go from sad to happy in an instant. 

The emotions of logic - an emotional reaction to the "synthetic" beauty of the logical solution to an intricate musical puzzle.

Its not a crisp distinction.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

BTW even composers sometimes draw the distinction in the OP. For example, a well-known composer wrote this of what is probably his best-known work: “All efficiency. No LOVE. Written without sympathy. Written cold as an army operates.”

Points for identifying the composer, of course!


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

Mandryka said:


> An example would be good, of a cantata with an "anti-reason" text.


My favorite one for its sheer belligerence is BWV 178, _Wo Gott derr Herr nicht bei uns hält_. Here's the tenor aria, "Schweig, schweig nur, taumelnde Vernunft!" ("Shut up, just shut up, overbearing reason!"):


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Eschbeg said:


> My favorite one for its sheer belligerence is BWV 178, _Wo Gott derr Herr nicht bei uns hält_. Here's the tenor aria, "Schweig, schweig nur, taumelnde Vernunft!" ("Shut up, just shut up, overbearing reason!"):


Thanks. Yes, reason opposed to faith, anti-enlightenment. When I retire I'll hopefully have the time to get to know the cantatas better.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

KenOC said:


> If Stokowski didn't orchestrate it, I don't like it!
> 
> Well, except for the Swingle Singers.


Canadian Brass maybe.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I used to classify all Baroque as being logically based and all romantic as emotionally based. However, all music, not matter what it is, will instill a subjective emotional reaction to the music. In this way, all music is emotional.

I believe what you have strong positive emotional reactions to is what you will gravitate to and state the work as being highly emotive.

I think a more interesting distinction to make is how the composer created the piece, did they use more logic in terms of thinking about what changes the music should make in order to be enjoyable or utilizing emotions and feeling it out as to what is deemed enjoyable.

Regardless of process used, it is inevitably emotional, however.

I believe another side of how logic plays into music is how we articulate our emotional reactions to the the work, including the composer him/herself.

It's not to dissimilar to my work in helping folks articulate their emotional beings and comprehending it.

My .02!

:tiphat:


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)




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