# After listening to nothing but Renaissance music for a while...



## Ravellian (Aug 17, 2009)

I'm starting to find most other later types of music to be rather boring in comparison D:

To me, the ITALIAN MADRIGAL of the late 16th century is possibly the most incredible compositional device ever: through-composed, based off a poem, intense fantastic counterpoint across four-six voices, never a dull moment. And better yet, they're nice and compact (3-5 minutes each). There's also great variety in style here.. if I want something incredibly chromatic I listen to Gesualdo or if I want something more conservative I listen to a Palestrina mass... and Rore fits nicely right in the middle.

But then if you move on to the baroque period, the prevailing texture is homophony and it sounds much more dull in comparison. Bach is a master of counterpoint, yes, but the counterpoint is much simpler in comparison to the renaissance since it's based off the simple sequence - subject entrance - sequence style of Vivaldi. And of course counterpoint falls off the map almost completely in the classical and romantic periods. 

Just thought I'd share that.. Renaissance music rocks!!


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2010)

Don't forget to throw Tallis and Byrd in the mix. For me, I still can't find a piece that moves me more in the renaissance period than Tallis' Spem in alium. I have to say, though, that after listening to Davitt Moroney's recordings of Byrd's keyboard works, I was also thoroughly impressed.

That said, though, baroque (or classical, or romantic) does not in any way seem boring to me. Right now I am listening to some of Haydn's symphonies, and thoroughly enjoying them. While renaissance music is incredible, the mastery of instruments, and not just voices, is something they didn't quite command. Whether it is more difficult to bring various instruments together than various voices, I can't say. But when I listen to something like the Brandenburg Concertos, bored is nowhere near an accurate description for my mood.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

There is indeed a certain subtlety and pure serenity when it comes to Renaissance music. Perhpas not surprising as much of the works would have been carefully written to glorify their God without fearing being burnt at the stake!


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I'd disagree that counterpoint wasn't important in the classical & romantic periods. Many composers, like Haydn & Beethoven & Brahms, liked to use fugues. I can hear this in Haydn's _London Symphonies _and in Beethoven's late string quartets. Isn't the final movement of Brahms' _Symphony No. 4_ a fugue? I'd also add, on a different note, that Bruckner, was apparently hugely influenced by early music composers such as Palestrina, which can be noted not only in his sacred choral works but also the working out in some of the symphonies.

I myself am also becoming interested in & enjoying Renaissance music. I was deeply impressed & "grabbed" by Gesualdo's _Madrigals Book 1_, which I got just last week. There is a richness, a passion, a drive (but also much melancholy & lyricism) in this music. & the fact that they are miniatures makes them even more potent in terms of musical expression (so concentrated, everything is expressed in that short space of time). I have also listened to the music of T. L. de Victoria, Byrd, Josquin des Prez (now there was an innovator, just as much as Gesualdo), & a bit of Tallis & Palestrina. These have not "grabbed" me instantly like the Gesualdo, but I have also enjoyed these very much. It sounds contradictory, but there is a richness & simplicity there, coexisting peacefully & simultaneously. Needless to say I will get more of the composers that I haven't heard - Lassus, Frescobaldi, Ogckheim, etc - in the coming months...


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## hocket (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm also a great admirer of Renaissance music and think it's tragic that it was 'lost' for so many centuries. Hopefully it's true stature in history will eventually be restored. The way that the 'canon' of musical history was developed, to the detriment (indeed exclusion) of Medieval, Renaissance and even Baroque music is fascinating and even far more problematic than it is in the other arts.

Andre wrote:



> I'd disagree that counterpoint wasn't important in the classical & romantic periods. Many composers, like Haydn & Beethoven & Brahms, liked to use fugues.


True, but relative to Renaissance music it is virtually non-existent. In any event musical styles and tastes had changed drastically over time.



> Josquin des Prez (now there was an innovator, just as much as Gesualdo)


I'm not sure that Josquin was really that much of an innovator. Amongst 'the great generation' the guy who's currently (and apparently in his own lifetime) regarded as having developed new techniques and having 'furthered the art' was Jacob Obrecht. Josquin is famous for being the best rather than for expanding the vocabulary of the medium. I've read an interesting review by the outstandingly knowledgeable Amazon.com reviewer 'Giordiano Bruno' who doesn't really see Gesualdo as being particularly innovative either. His view was that Gesualdo merely takes elements that were inherent in late renaissance ('mannerist') styles to their logical extremity. I don't know enough to judge myself, but I thought it was interesting perspective.


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## James clerk (Jan 28, 2010)

*N*ot *E*very *R*ock *D*ances.


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## hocket (Feb 21, 2010)

*James Clerk wrote:*



> Not Every Rock Dances.


Wow. Perhaps I should've just said something bland and vacuous if that's more your speed. I suppose I should know by now that the world's got no shortage of wankers.


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## Ravellian (Aug 17, 2009)

Ignore the jerk, I appreciate your inputs man_from_porlock. I disagree with your statement about Josquin, however.. Josquin composed in a very different style from the other contemporary composers in that the vocal ranges were tighter and more equal, the polyphony wasn't as dense as before and more imitative, and he used 'text painting': using melodies that help convey the meaning of the text. I don't recall Obrecht as being the 'first' to employ any of these new stylistic techniques.


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## Guest (Apr 17, 2010)

I have greatly appreciated Porlock's comments - I am new to renaissance music, and he has given some great suggestions. 

I have been exploring a lot - especially Tallis Scholars recordings. One piece that I read about that I really want to hear is Allegri's Miserere Mei. Are there recommended recordings? I have been considering, again, the Tallis Scholars, but noticed they have two recording - one from the early '80s, and the other more recent. The more recent recording is supposed to have the clearer sound, but the earlier one gets better reviews. Or is there another group that performs it better? The Sixteen?


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## hocket (Feb 21, 2010)

*Ravellian wrote:*



> Josquin composed in a very different style from the other contemporary composers


I'd certainly agree that he had his own style and that blending the Flemish style with Italian stylings was what really helped to make him so popular. The simplification was a big part of that. As for 'text painting' it's certainly true that Josquin's music is far less melismatic than Obrecht's. Pervasive use of structural imitation, which is probably the most significant development of their generation, is certainly present in Obrecht though. Josquin and the others arguably developed it further but Obrecht appears to me to be the innovator just as Tinctoris said. A remarkable generation of musicians anyway, and Josquin is, for me, the greatestof them. The Orlando Consort's recording of his Motets is one of the best cd's of renaissance polyphony that you can get IMO -it's one of those rare things that seem to get better every single time you listen to it.

EDIT: Here's a quote from medieval.org's bio of Obrecht as an example of the kind of thing that informed my comments:



> Jacob Obrecht (1457/8-1505) was one of the primary composers responsible for significant changes in musical style during the late fifteenth century. He was especially important to the development of larger forms, as the first composer to systematically demonstrate unified formal structure and long-range cadential planning over the course of extended works. Obrecht's approach to unity and development went beyond the simple employment of a cantus firmus or unifying gesture. He consequently personifies today's mass-as-symphony ideal most decisively. Obrecht's innovations also touched the realm of sonority, where he reaffirmed the prominence of reduced scoring passages, and pioneered a lighter sound-world in which changes in the number of active voices served to continue a broader musical argument without being ends in themselves. Recent revisions to the biographies and chronologies of Obrecht & Josquin indicate that some developments previously credited to Josquin were actually Obrecht's doing. A vision of Obrecht now emerges in which he was a precocious talent, the first of his generation to perfect the mature style of the era, and a composer who redefined mass composition in the 1480s. His work was followed only later by Josquin's own refinements.


*Dr Mike wrote:*



> One piece that I read about that I really want to hear is Allegri's Miserere Mei. Are there recommended recordings? I have been considering, again, the Tallis Scholars, but noticed they have two recording - one from the early '80s, and the other more recent. The more recent recording is supposed to have the clearer sound, but the earlier one gets better reviews. Or is there another group that performs it better? The Sixteen?


I've got two versions of it. Funnily enough they're the earlier Tallis Scholars version and the one by The Sixteen. Both seem pretty good to me. I slightly favour The Tallis Scholars recording but there's not much in it. It's a very simple piece but strikingly beautiful. If you want to hear something awesome by The Sixteen I'd recommend their recording of Robert Wylkynson's 'Jesus Autem Transiens' from 'The Pillars of Eternity'. Cracking recording.

Oh, and thanks for the encouragement guys -random abuse is never very pleasant.


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## JSK (Dec 31, 2008)

It's not the #1 music I listen to, but some of the most beautiful and moving music seems to come from "early music" from before the time of Bach/Vivaldi/Handel/etc...

And Andre, I agree with you that counterpoint was still important in the Classical and Romantic periods. I just believe that unlike in the Baroque and especially the Renaissance counterpoint was more of a defining, primary musical element than it was starting in the Classical period.

I love viols!


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## JoeGreen (Nov 17, 2008)

While I have yet to listen to many madrigals. I have started to really develope a great passion for Renaissance music. I can't help admire this particular piece...






by Spanish composer Mateo Flecha el Viejo. I hadn't realize how developed the musical imagination and vibrant it was back then as in later years. Some Baroque(dare I say even Classical?) pieces truely seem conservative against this one.

And I'm going to have to check out this Carlo Gesualdo.


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

Yes, please help me also! After a month of getting into Josquin, Palestrina, Byrd, Gesualdo, Victoria and the Gabrieli's, I am convinced that Renaissance madrigals/motets are probably the best music out there. Now the magics of Bach, Mozart, Brahms, Wagner, Schubert, Debussy kinda fall short for me.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

silentio said:


> Yes, please help me also! After a month of getting into Josquin, Palestrina, Byrd, Gesualdo, Victoria and the Gabrieli's, I am convinced that Renaissance madrigals/motets are probably the best music out there. Now the magics of Bach, Mozart, Brahms, Wagner, Schubert, Debussy kinda fall short for me.


No offence silentio, thread is not used in 5 years.
Ask deprofundis, he's the specialist on this site.


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