# Bach and Minimalism



## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

Has anyone ever drawn parallels to some music by Bach and the minimalist idiom? The idea of hypnotic, repetitive rhythms and musical ideas slowly progressing through a gradual series of subtle harmonic changes found in minimalism I also hear occasionally in Bach, such as the below two examples. (The 2nd half of the Suite. No. 4 Prelude doesnt apply)

I've heard Schubert has some work that's considered proto-minimalist and influenced Glass, but I've never heard it. Obviously Bach has had a monumental influence on all conposers who have come after him, but I'm curious as to whether specific pieces like these made a particular impression on the minimalists.


----------



## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

The first thing I personally think of with minimalism is Schubert and Bach, not Brahms or Glass.


----------



## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Ethereality said:


> The first thing I personally think of with minimalism is Schubert and Bach, not Brahms or Glass.


That's "funny".... The first thing _I _personally think of with Schubert and Bach ... and Brahms, too, is maximalism, as in "big, important music" from "big, important composers." I personally don't think much about Glass at all. So I suppose you could term my thinking about Glass (and his music) as minimalism.


----------



## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

SONNET CLV said:


> That's "funny".... The first thing _I _personally think of with Schubert and Bach ... and Brahms, too, is maximalism, as in "big, important music" from "big, important composers."


I think there are very specific works by Bach that perhaps fall within the minimalist idiom-in particular his Prelude in C from the first WTC as well as his G major Cello Suite. But for the most part, he is definitely a "maximalist".

And on Brahms; the only work I could come up that is possibly "minimalist" are his studies:






Couldn't think of anything for Schubert.


----------



## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

SONNET CLV said:


> That's "funny".... The first thing _I _personally think of with Schubert and Bach ... and Brahms, too, is maximalism, as in "big, important music" from "big, important composers." I personally don't think much about Glass at all. So I suppose you could term my thinking about Glass (and his music) as minimalism.


I hear degrees of maximalism in composers like Mozart, Mahler, Brahms, and most contemporaries. I don't hear it at all in Schubert or Bach  The music need not be repetitious, but just say more with less.


----------



## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

I don't see any relationship between Bach and minimalism. 

For one thing minimalism is static, that is a hallmark of the style, whereas Bach's is 180 degrees from being static. Harmonically, Bach's music has a forward propulsion which the music of someone like Philip Glass does not possess. 

There is more in common between minimalism and serialism since both methods produce static music.


----------



## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

Repeat several sequences from this Brahms study about twenty times and it will sound a lot like Glass.


----------



## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

Minimalism is less about repetition (i mean, a ton of Bach repeats a motif while changing the key) and far more about the idea of sustained atmosphere being a valid aesthetic mode to make music in. 

Arguably you could count like, some of the longer adagio movements in the proto-Romantic era here but that's a "beethoven invented jazz!!!!"-like stretch


----------



## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

I hear a correlation between staticism and minimalism  and get that these new movements from before I came along get to define themselves, but sometimes I don't hear the minimalism as effectively as I do in Schubert and Bach. Staticism keeps the concept of minimalism intact, though their choice of wording is a bit counter-intuitive.


----------



## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

chu42 said:


> Repeat several sequences from this Brahms study about twenty times and it will sound a lot like Glass.


I hear it!


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)




----------



## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

In terms of listening, I find Bach and Glass's piano music can work well together but I suppose that's more about rhythmic pulse than anything else.


----------



## Rambler (Oct 20, 2017)

I've often felt stretches of Bach have a 'minimalist' link - where he sets off with a pattern and lets it continue for a period in a sort of minimalist way - but never long enough to tire my ear. Beethoven does something of the same on occasions. I'm not sure is the second half of the last movement of the last piano sonata has elements of minimalism - extended trills and repeated figurations.


----------



## Ganz Allein (Mar 26, 2021)

Hmmm, I wanted to chime in to point out that minimalism often _is_ about with repetitive structures, and that usually the apparent staticism is an illusion behind which the music continually develops and often builds towards a climax. Take "Night Train" from Einstein on the Beach as an example - it's based around a single repeating motif, but is constantly changing and building to the shattering (IMHO) climax where the chorus comes in suddenly on "mi si mi si mi si."






With that in mind, although it's a cliche, I tend to think Ravel's Bolero is the best minimalist antecedent, as it uses a repetitive structure to build towards a climax. I'd also propose Beethoven's Grosse Fuge as a minimalist antecedent, with its single-minded focus on a few small rhythmic and melodic chunks that undergo a series of dizzying variations which also build towards a climax.

Of course, I'm not aware of any minimalist composers citing either of these works as a particular influence. As far as I know, most cite Indian Classical Music as a specific influence/inspiration, and I know at least Steve Reich cites West African music. So I think if we're looking for literal influences we need to look outside the Western canon, though I agree that it's fun to look for minimalist tendencies within the Western canon!


----------



## Highwayman (Jul 16, 2018)

chu42 said:


> Repeat several sequences from this Brahms study about twenty times and it will sound a lot like Glass.


These are just musically insignificant exercises though. I respect Biret`s ethical approach to the concept of a "complete box" but I don`t think these pieces are meant to be recorded and AFAIK she is the only pianist who has recorded it commercially.

But anyway, even if Brahms or Bach had composed some serious music that can be considered as proto-minimalist, it would only indicate their versatility as composers and perhaps their empirical nature. I cannot possibly imagine them vouching for the post-minimalists.


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

His son PDQ Bach was closer to minimalism.


----------



## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Happy Birthday Franz Schubert!! ( and Philip Glass, too!)



hammeredklavier said:


> "I was fascinated to hear Philip Glass, a pioneer of Minimalism, single out Schubert as a crucial influence on his own music. Glass did not mean that Schubert was some sort of proto-Minimalist. Yet there can be a ritualized aura, a transfixing quality, to Schubert's sonata-form movements. Often Schubert will take a theme that might already be rather long and put it through its paces during an extended development section. He will repeat it, without much trimming or concision, over and over as it goes through sequences and moves through different keys."
> < The Indispensable Composers: A Personal Guide / Anthony Tommasini / P.192 >


----------



## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

I think it is the complete opposite. Minimalism is about repetition of the theme and only minimal and subtle development of the theme. Bach is also often about minimal thematic material but extensive and exhaustive development of the theme.


----------

