# Schumann and Brahms were the same person.



## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Sorry, but that just popped into my head and I have posted it here without properly thinking it through. But saying that, is it possible?  

I am now in a superposition of having clicked Submit and not having slicked Submit at the same time.


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

Brahms's Op. 9 and 10 were published while Schumann was in the asylum. There are other holes in the idea, though.


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

Wrong. Brahms was a great composer, Schumann was a hack and mental.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

beetzart said:


> Sorry, but that just popped into my head and I have posted it here without properly thinking it through. But saying that, is it possible?
> 
> I am now in a superposition of having clicked Submit and not having slicked Submit at the same time.


This is an intriguing idea (I'm assuming that you mean it figuratively) and I'd love to hear Schumann and Brahms through your ears to get a sense of what you're experiencing.

In my own experience of listening to Schumann and Brahms, they actually don't sound similar to me. I enjoy both of them more or less equally, but they seem to inhabit different emotional worlds. Schumann's music strikes me as mysterious and poetic, with many digressions as if he were talking quietly to himself. Brahms's music feels more structured and logical; he seems to walk the listener through each melodic development in order to present a unified story.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Have published a blog on this site about Brahms, Robert Schumann and his wife Clara. Brahms befriended Clara while Robert was in an asylum.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Bettina said:


> This is an intriguing idea (I'm assuming that you mean it figuratively) and I'd love to hear Schumann and Brahms through your ears to get a sense of what you're experiencing.
> 
> In my own experience of listening to Schumann and Brahms, they actually don't sound similar to me. I enjoy both of them more or less equally, but they seem to inhabit different emotional worlds. Schumann's music strikes me as mysterious and poetic, with many digressions as if he were talking quietly to himself. Brahms's music feels more structured and logical; he seems to walk the listener through each melodic development in order to present a unified story.


I think some of Schumann and Brahms works sound similar. Could be because the two were very close!!


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Fugue Meister said:


> Wrong. Brahms was a great composer, Schumann was a hack and mental.


This is both wrong and making fun of someone with mental illness, nice.


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## musicrom (Dec 29, 2013)

One is Florestan, the other is Eusebius? :lol:


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Their works are profoundly different to my ears.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I think when it came to Clara, Brahms wished he and Schumann were the same person.


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

Schumann is the most overrated composer of all time and I try never to pass up an opportunity to post about it.

Now William Schuman, brilliant composer and one of the most underrated.


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## Lenny (Jul 19, 2016)

Fugue Meister said:


> Schumann is the most overrated composer of all time and I try never to pass up an opportunity to post about it.


I beg to differ here.

Schumann's influence can be heard all over in Brahms's music. That's already a reason to think Schumann as one of the greatest


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

Fugue Meister said:


> Schumann is the most overrated composer of all time and I try never to pass up an opportunity to post about it.


It will be useless though. Schumann's place in the pantheon of great romantic composers is well assured.


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

Lenny said:


> I beg to differ here.
> 
> Schumann's influence can be heard all over in Brahms's music. That's already a reason to think Schumann as one of the greatest


I see it the other way around, which is why I call him a hack as a composer. Schumann had to use elements of Brahms music to make his stuff listenable. Brahms was too classy to take issue with this and probably out of respect to Clara, whom he loved dearly.


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

jdec said:


> It will be useless though. Schumann's place in the pantheon of great romantic composers is well assured.


This is an assessment I'm fine with as I find most of the romantic age overblown, and bombastic. The best composers from this era of music are almost all Russian.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Fugue Meister said:


> I see it the other way around, which is why I call him a hack as a composer. Schumann had to use elements of Brahms music to make his stuff listenable. Brahms was too classy to take issue with this and probably out of respect to Clara, whom he loved dearly.


Your sense of chronology is completely absurd.


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

Chronochromie said:


> Your sense of chronology is completely absurd.


Prove it chronochromie.

If it wasn't his respect for Clara it was the flattering critiques Schumann gave his music, something Schumann should have stuck to as he was a decent music critic.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Fugue Meister said:


> Prove it chronochromie.
> 
> If it wasn't his respect for Clara it was the flattering critiques Schumann gave his music, something Schumann should have stuck to as he was a decent music critic.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Johannes_Brahms_by_opus_number

Look at the dates of his first published works, then look at the date of Schumann's suicide attempt. To claim that Schumann stole from Brahms is ludicrous.


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

Chronochromie said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Johannes_Brahms_by_opus_number
> 
> Look at the dates of his first published works, then look at the date of Schumann's suicide attempt. To claim that Schumann stole from Brahms is ludicrous.


I've been around far too long and the only subject I ever post disdain for is RS.

Also I don't dispute that Schumann wrote works before Brahms, just that the works he wrote after Brahms started writing have some similar textures, though never as inspired.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Who'd want to state anything in a factual context that wasn't factual? Opinions without some grounding are worthless blather.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Can't argue with opinions.


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

eugeneonagain said:


> Can't argue with opinions.


All I'm saying is it's also an "opinion" to think Schumann was entirely original. There really is no way to argue it either way. This is not an area of objective truth. It seems as though all anyone does on this forum is argue about opinions all day long anyhow so what are you talking about.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Judith said:


> I think some of Schumann and Brahms works sound similar. Could be because the two were very close!!


The most sensible answer.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Fugue Meister said:


> All I'm saying is it's also an "opinion" to think Schumann was entirely original. There really is no way to argue it either way. This is not an area of objective truth. It seems as though all anyone does on this forum is argue about opinions all day long anyhow so what are you talking about.


You're wrong. Some try to explain their views and offer evidence, references to works etc. That's very different from trashing someone and their music - and saying one always takes the opportunity to do so - with nothing other than "it's my opinion" as the explanation. That's what I'm talking about.

To even recognise that other people think Schumann was original as a legitimate opinion undermines your initial statement that he was a hack and a musical thief. If you really thought that, you wouldn't acknowledge that he could be original and would explain why with something other than bald denunciation.


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

eugeneonagain said:


> You're wrong. Some try to explain their views and offer evidence, references to works etc. That's very different from trashing someone and their music - and saying one always takes the opportunity to do so - with nothing other than "it's my opinion" as the explanation. That's what I'm talking about.
> 
> To even recognise that other people think Schumann was original as a legitimate opinion undermines your initial statement that he was a hack and a musical thief. If you really thought that, you wouldn't acknowledge that he could be original and would explain why with something other than bald denunciation.


I see it differently, just like the argument no music is objectively better than anyone else's the same is true here, since we are talking about art and not math or science there is no definitive right or wrong. Like as I said all we are doing at this forum are posting opinions, yes occasionally someone posts something that happens to be historical fact but for the most part its all a back and forth of opinions... "I like this composer, he's better than Cage", "Mozart is the greatest composer of all time"

When I say I find Schumann's work's to be influenced by others including Brahms, it is an opinion but it's just as valid as saying no Schumann is one of the greatest and most original composers" Very similar to when you say "Your wrong", that is just your opinion unless I say something along the lines of 2 + 2 = 5 or there are 57 states in America.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Fugue Meister said:


> I see it differently, just like the argument no music is objectively better than anyone else's the same is true here, since we are talking about art and not math or science there is no definitive right or wrong. Like as I said all we are doing at this forum are posting opinions, yes occasionally someone posts something that happens to be historical fact but for the most part its all a back and forth of opinions... "I like this composer, he's better than Cage", "Mozart is the greatest composer of all time"
> 
> When I say I find Schumann's work's to be influenced by others including Brahms, it is an opinion but it's just as valid as saying no Schumann is one of the greatest and most original composers" Very similar to when you say I'm wrong, that is just your opinion.


No, it's not valid. I don't care how you see it. It's just an utterance. And if you really do see it as a case where all opinions hold the same status why would you bother replying when someone posts the opposite opinion. That would be a pointless game of opinion tennis.

Frankly, you don't even seem to have any idea of what _you_ mean.


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## Nevum (Nov 28, 2013)

Sorry you got it wrong. They were both Wagner. Enough said. I can not disclose further.


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## Lenny (Jul 19, 2016)

I think it's fair to say also Schumann got inspiration from Brahms? But just a hack......  Correct me if I'm wrong, but Schumann was already established composer and writer before he knew anything about Brahms. According to interwebs sources, Brahms wrote his first full piano sonata 1845 (as a 12-year old boy, it was never published). Schumann has already written full symphony and a load of other works by then...


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

Lenny said:


> I think it's fair to say also Schumann got inspiration from Brahms? But just a hack......  Correct me if I'm wrong, but Schumann was already established composer and writer before he knew anything about Brahms. According to interwebs sources, Brahms wrote his first full piano sonata 1845 (as a 12-year old boy, it was never published). Schumann has already written full symphony and a load of other works by then...


And I've already conceded this point, I was speaking of some of Schumann's later music.


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## Lenny (Jul 19, 2016)

Fugue Meister said:


> And I've already conceded this point, I was speaking of some of Schumann's later music.


But I don't really see any difference. His early music is as Schumann as the late.

Ok, but I can see your argument. You mean that all the Schumann late works that are praised and played regularly are heavily influenced by Brahms. Maybe so, and I can actually agree with that to some extent. But to call Schumann hack and fraudster... I cannot agree with. Musical influences are very complicated, and if you ask me, individual composers are really not relevant when it comes to bigger picture.


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

Lenny said:


> But I don't really see any difference. His early music is as Schumann as the late.
> 
> Ok, but I can see your argument. You mean that all the Schumann late works that are praised and played regularly are heavily influenced by Brahms. Maybe so, and I can actually agree with that to some extent. But to call Schumann hack and fraudster... I cannot agree with. Musical influences are very complicated, and if you ask me, individual composers are really not relevant when it comes to bigger picture.


Indeed, I applaud you for the way you put it to me and recognize it's your right to disagree with me and respect your opinion.

...but I still think Schumann is a hack and it's a fact that he was crazy. :devil:


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## Lenny (Jul 19, 2016)

Fugue Meister said:


> Indeed, I applaud you for the way you put it to me and recognize it's your right to disagree with me and respect your opinion.
> 
> ...but I still think Schumann is a hack and it's a fact that he was crazy. :devil:


Yes, totally crazy! But that may be true for most of the creative geniuses.... Actually I think Schumann is just for some reason raised to this position of official romantic madman, which do no favor to all the other lunatics! Compared to for example Bruckner or Messiaen, Schumann was quite an ordinary chap


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Fugue Meister said:


> I see it the other way around, which is why I call him a hack as a composer. Schumann had to use elements of Brahms music to make his stuff listenable. Brahms was too classy to take issue with this and probably out of respect to Clara, whom he loved dearly.


No one has ever been obligated to like Schumann's music, but most listeners are generally more diplomatic and less condescending and crass about expressing their disapproval. By the time Brahms met Schumann, Schumann had already written most of the masterpieces he's known for, still highly esteemed today except possibly by certain disreputable critics - not only for the piano but for the orchestra - so, so much for Brahms' influence on any of Schumann's works, whether one likes them or not.

There was also a 23 year difference in their ages with Schumann (1810) being the older over Brahms (1833). So who influenced whom?

Some of you could use more historical resources and references to support your wildly speculative views or conclusions. It's not enough just to make something up that's essentially historically false and then stubbornly stand by it. They knew each other for only about 3 years and much has been written about the relationship. They became instant friends at the time._ It was Brahms who sought out Schumann and not the other way around_.

Sometimes people may have apparently read little or nothing about either of them, because there may be a deep-seated prejudice or grudge against a particular composer, and I've never seen an attack on Schumann as a "hack", ironically in support of Brahms who adored Schumann, except as a new low on this otherwise excellent forum.

They are similar but still very much different composers -- Schumann perhaps being more gentle and inclined to poetic and literary influences than the socially inept Brahms -- but both have a special sincerity and warmth in their symphonies, and that was most likely due to Schumann's influence on the younger Brahms, who was 20 at the time of their first meeting. The older composer, again, had already written the vast majority of his masterpieces when Brahms showed up on his doorstep, as an historical fact, such as his joyous, exuberant and radiant "Rhenish" Symphony No. 3. (



).

Even the final revision of Schumann's 4th Symphony was completed in December of 1851, two years before the composers ever met. Maybe Brahms at the age of 18 influenced Schumann's compositions with a Ouija board from high up in the Alps.

Brahms sought out Schumann because he thought he was a great composer and _he loved his music_ before meeting him, and Brahms was deeply into writing for the piano at the time, as Schumann had been before... He strove to live up to Schumann's high expectations after Schumann had glowingly written about him in _Neue Zeitschrift für Musik_ (New Journal for Music).

When one looks more deeply and sincerely into the personal background of both composers, it's evident that certain inaccurate and irresponsible statements made about them are _historically_ _impossible, _ especially when it comes to who influenced whose symphonies, with both generally held in high regard by those who actually know something about them and love their music.

_Schumann and Brahms: http://www.schumann-portal.de/johannes-brahms-1351.html

Robert Schumann's career: http://www.npr.org/2011/07/18/127038609/the-life-and-music-of-robert-schumann_

:wave:


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Lenny said:


> Yes, totally crazy! But that may be true for most of the creative geniuses.... Actually I think Schumann is just for some reason raised to this position of official romantic madman, which do no favor to all the other lunatics! Compared to for example Bruckner or Messiaen, Schumann was quite an ordinary chap


I'm not aware that either Bruckner or Messiaen were hospitalised because of mental illness, so what makes you say that last bit?


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Fugue Meister said:


> ...but I still think Schumann is a hack and it's a fact that he was crazy. :devil:





Lenny said:


> Yes, totally crazy! But that may be true for most of the creative geniuses.... Actually I think Schumann is just for some reason raised to this position of official romantic madman, which do no favor to all the other lunatics! Compared to for example Bruckner or Messiaen, Schumann was quite an ordinary chap


Reminder: It's 2017. Words like "crazy", "madman" and "lunatic" are stupid.


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## Lenny (Jul 19, 2016)

Animal the Drummer said:


> I'm not aware that either Bruckner or Messiaen were hospitalised because of mental illness, so what makes you say that last bit?


In the morning I was listening to Messiaen's quartet and thinking about some mechanical birds flying above the ashes of armageddon, and the resurrection of Christ. And then some romantic guy writing piano music about butterflies. Yes, I know, bad joke.. never mind. I know Schumann got some real issues and I didn't mean to undermine that. Sorry. :tiphat:


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## Omicron9 (Oct 13, 2016)

I don't think they were the same person artistically, but I've never seen both of them at the same party in the same room at the same time. Suspicious.


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## bz3 (Oct 15, 2015)

What a weird thread. Starts with a nonsense premise and then moves into some sort of argument over the spiritual antecedents of Schumann's work because that is the only way one could believe Schumann ripped off Brahms considering the exact opposite was the actual truth, but the whole problem of linear time seems not to create too much of an issue for some posters.

Probably the most believable thing written in this thread is the possibility that Brahms and Schumann are both Wagner as together they have all the anger, desolation, mania, love, desire, loneliness, warmth, and acrimony that only Wagner could have.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

bz3 said:


> Probably the most believable thing written in this thread is the possibility that Brahms and Schumann are both Wagner as together they have all the anger, desolation, mania, love, desire, loneliness, warmth, and acrimony that only Wagner could have.


This is the least believable and the most ridiculous.


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