# From An American Perspective



## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

I'm an American and I am NOT what you would call patriotic. I just don't fall for the whole "America is the greatest country" junk that seems to permeate this nation. I personally believe that America has some great qualities but also a LOT to improve upon. We can learn a lot from other nations about tolerance, acceptance, addressing the gap between rich and poor, etc.

Having said this, I've noticed the VERY rare times that I feel proud of my country are when I listen to the music of Aaron Copland or some of Dvorak's "American Period" music. I'm not exactly sure why this is, but their music affects me in a positive way towards America, possibly because I am able to see how THEY view America. Not as an empire with an overblown sense of global self-importance, but as a land of possibilities, ethnic diversity, and second chances. It gives me hope for the future.

Does anyone else know what I mean? Is there music that does that for you and your country (wherever you are from)?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I know exactly what you mean. It's easy to forget your own country's virtues, especially in times as complex and difficult as these, when the world presents unprecedented challenges, the power of our civilization to endure and prosper is sorely tested, and so many yield to the temptation of simplistic solutions and demagoguery. Whether or not we survive, it's good to be reminded of the open-hearted optimism, can-do spirit, and solid, common-sense values, respecting both the individual and the community, which we like to think of as traditionally American. Music inspired by that America, mythical land of boundless horizons and limitless potential, can do that for us.

I hear that open, optimistic "Americanness" in a lot of American classical music up through the 1950s: MacDowell, Chadwick, Foote, Carpenter, Loeffler, Ives, Barber, Harris, Creston, Schumann, Hanson, Copland, etc. As for Dvorak, I think he had that sort of spirit even before he came here, and his "New World" symphony strikes me as more Czech than American. He was living among Czechs in Iowa, I believe.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

I think we need to discriminate carefully between music that seeks to exemplify or embody a particular national cultural asset or bit of landscape or folk custom, and we each can think of loads of such examples--and music offered as a more explicit "This Is My Country!" theme or anthem. I've always loved Sibelius' _Finlandia_, with its association of Finnish assertion of national identity and pride in the face of Russian suzerainty. But consider: what if Finlandia, under another name, another composer, was offered as the musical banner of Fascist Italy or Falangist Spain, or worse? I think the music of Copland, etc. (and let's not forget Ferde Grofé's _Grand Canyon Suite_) makes us/you feel warm and fuzzy is because it is mirroring a familiar, particularly American, atmosphere/ambiance, but there need not be an implication that, because it's American and familiar, it is necessarily better.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Strange Magic said:


> But consider: what if Finlandia, under another name, another composer, was offered as the musical banner of Fascist Italy or Falangist Spain, or worse?


Yes, you are correct: they would definitely have to change the name. :lol:



> I think the music of Copland, etc. (and let's not forget Ferde Grofé's _Grand Canyon Suite_) makes us/you feel warm and fuzzy is because it is mirroring a familiar, particularly American, atmosphere/ambiance, but there need not be an implication that, because it's American and familiar, it is necessarily better.


I think democracy is better; if you lived in North Korea, or Iran, I'm sure you would agree.

"Fanfare for the Common Man" is the title of the music by Copland that inspires my love of country. 
It gets me back to the original meaning of America, which is written on the Statue of Liberty, to times before the big corporations took over, before there was an income tax, before there was a shrinking middle class, before political figures were paid large sums of money to speak, and before "illegal" was changed to mean "undocumented."


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

millionrainbows said:


> Yes, you are correct: they would definitely have to change the name. :*lol:
> 
> I think democracy is better; if you lived in North Korea, or Iran, I'm sure you would agree.*
> 
> ...


I think it was Churchill who said: "Democracy is the worst possible system of government apart from everything else that has been tried!"


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

L


millionrainbows said:


> ....to times before the big corporations took over, before there was an income tax, before there was a shrinking middle class, before political figures were paid large sums of money to speak, and before "illegal" was changed to mean "undocumented."


Yup, those were the Good Old Days. Mark Twain sung their praises, day and night.


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## Kivimees (Feb 16, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> "Fanfare for the Common Man" is the title of the music by Copland that inspires my love of country.


It inspires me to a love of America, too - and I'm not American. :tiphat:


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Strange Magic said:


> L
> 
> Yup, those were the Good Old Days. Mark Twain sung their praises, day and night.


What Mark Twain wrote was very necessary. Now that we are all at ground zero, let's move on.


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## Kivimees (Feb 16, 2013)

There are some pieces that simply 'touch the heart'. When I hear "Fanfare for the Common Man", I feel everything positive I can imagine about the USA. It makes me feel grateful.

For my own country, I would choose "Kodumaine viis" by Heino Eller:






It's no "Fanfare", but it also makes me grateful that our tiny unassuming country exists.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Sorry if it seems like I am trying to rain on your parade (I am not), but:



millionrainbows said:


> I think democracy is better; if you lived in North Korea, or Iran, I'm sure you would agree."


Because surely the only available choices are either the USA or Iran and North Korea...


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## Hildadam Bingor (May 7, 2016)

millionrainbows said:


> I think democracy is better


Maybe. But democracy is French.


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## Hildadam Bingor (May 7, 2016)

Olias said:


> I'm not exactly sure why this is, but their music affects me in a positive way towards America, possibly because I am able to see how THEY view America. Not as an empire with an overblown sense of global self-importance, but as a land of possibilities, ethnic diversity, and second chances.


I am an American and I am what you would call patriotic, and seeing America as an empire with an overblown sense of global self-importance seems to me much preferable to seeing America as a land of possibilities and second chances. An overblown sense of global self-importance might have happened to anybody. But if America has (or had) more possibilities and second chances than other countries, that's because we had a massive surplus of land and natural resources, which we got by taking them from the Indians (we could still give them back at any time, but essentially nobody really wants to and we probably never will).

Copland, Gershwin, Ives, and some other American music affects me in a way nothing else does, but I don't think it has anything to do with how they view America or anything else. It doesn't have to be good or bad; it's just mine.

Also, my mother is Austrian and I grew up with that culture to some extent, and I happen to be listening to The Merry Wives of Windsor this evening, and right now it's the soft chorus in the forest toward the end, and that affects me in a special way too - though the feeling is completely different from the one I get from American music.


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## Ginger (Jul 14, 2016)

I'm German and I'm definitely not patriotic. Sometimes even the excitement about our football team goes to far for me. I have always experienced it as extremely difficult to love my country. Of course nationalsocialism wasn't my fault. But most Germans still have it in mind as a horrible example for 'mislead' patriotism. Nevertheless when listening to Strauss' Alpine Symphony I feel deeply touched and I am happy to belong here.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Ginger said:


> I'm German and I'm definitely not patriotic. Sometimes even the excitement about our football team goes to far for me. I have always experienced it as extremely difficult to love my country. Of course nationalsocialism wasn't my fault. But most Germans still have it in mind as a horrible example for 'mislead' patriotism. Nevertheless when listening to Strauss' Alpine Symphony I feel deeply touched and I am happy to belong here.


The Bavarian... I mean the Alpine Symphony is one of the most evocative, glorious, fantastic pieces I have ever heard. It is what has brought me to this forum actually. And I have some beautiful memories connected to this piece... :angel:


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

This is all well and nice, and I basically feel the same as Olias, but as a nation and a people we have to put our money where our mouth is in order to have this type of cultural significance in the future. And maybe it won't matter anyway? The immigrants of a hundred or more years ago brought the great European music traditions with them to the new world and passed them on to their children.

I wonder how many of today's parents demand music and cultural programs and courses be made available to their children? And how many would rent a musical instrument for their child instead of giving them a cell phone?

And I wish there were a few more corporations that would sponsor orchestras and other artistic organizations instead of giving some 20 year old golfer a 10 million dollar endorsement deal. But as long as the libraries are open, and free expression is still legal, I'm not going to complain too much. Unless that loud mouth billionaire gets elected in November. But hey, maybe he'll make everything great again?

And on a final note. I feel great as an American listening to Duke Ellington or Pat Metheny, as well as Copland and Ives. Should we stand and sing the national anthem now?


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

A work that no one has mentioned yet that effects me is Randall Thompson's _Testament of Freedom._

One can find several good performances on You Tube. The original was for male chorus and orchestra. How there is a version for mixed chorus. Also the orchestral version has been transcribed for band.

I have performed it twice, once with orchestra male chorus and once with a band and mixed chorus.


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

I am proud to be an American but believe that this country is no longer going in the right direction. We as voters have allowed the political and corporate elites to take over and ruin our governments. Government and corporate are largely corrupt and no longer have regard for the lowly people. And have a never ending and greatly successful campaign to keep us all divided. 

That said patriotic music makes me more melancholy for a great America that could be than anything else.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

We Americans have to be a bit careful. Aaron Copland was a Communist when he wrote his most popular Americana, following the party line of socialist realism (in contrast to some of his earlier music). That worked for him, certainly.

Similarly, Woodie Guthrie was a thoroughgoing Communist. He wrote, most famously, the ever-popular “This Land is Your Land.” One of the original verses went,

“Was a high wall there that tried to stop me
A sign was painted said: Private Property,
But on the back side it didn't say nothing —
This land was made for you and me.”

Woodie wrote the song partly from disgust with Irving Berlin's "God Bless America."


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> We Americans have to be a bit careful. Aaron Copland was a Communist when he wrote his most popular Americana, following the party line of socialist realism (in contrast to some of his earlier music). That worked for him, certainly.
> 
> Similarly, Woodie Guthrie was a thoroughgoing Communist. He wrote, most famously, the ever-popular "This Land is Your Land." One of the original verses went,
> 
> ...


I've walked happily across privately owned land but do not advocate state ownership of the means of production.


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## Hildadam Bingor (May 7, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> I've walked happily across privately owned land but do not advocate state ownership of the means of production.


Yeah, but Guthrie really DID. Copland was basically an unpolitical liberal who went social realist when everybody was doing it and consequently became a pretty important composer in spite of himself (and then stopped being social realist when everybody stopped, and stopped being an important composer). But Guthrie was the real deal:

"[T]he best thing that I did in 1936 was to sign up with the Communist Party." (He didn't actually, but the point is, he SAID he did.)



> [approvingly, of FDR:]
> 
> He said he didn't like DeGaulle, nor no Chiang Kai Shek;
> Shook hands with Joseph Stalin, says: "There's a man I like!"
> This world was lucky to see him born.


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## Hildadam Bingor (May 7, 2016)

KenOC said:


> Woodie wrote the song partly from disgust with Irving Berlin's "God Bless America."


Guthrie's response was the best thing to come out of "God Bless America."

The second best thing to come out of "God Bless America" was Berlin's own parody lyric, sent to friend and political opposite Yip Harburg (of "Brother Can You Spare a Dime" and Wizard of Oz fame) about 50 years after the fact:



> God bless America
> Land I enjoy
> No discussions
> with the Russians
> 'til they stop sending arms to Hanoi.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I've walked happily across privately owned land but do not advocate state ownership of the means of production.


Me neither - direct worker control of the means of production and the abolition of the state is where it's at.

Nonetheless I, too, love America. How can you not?


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

In all fairness, the "communism" of Woody Guthrie was of a more idealistic sort, before the Soviets ruined it. There were a lot of Americans who were sympathetic to the idea of an ideal form of communism. Apparently, the system is not compatible with human nature.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Hildadam Bingor said:


> Yeah, but Guthrie really DID. Copland was basically an unpolitical liberal who went social realist when everybody was doing it and consequently became a pretty important composer in spite of himself (and then stopped being social realist when everybody stopped, and stopped being an important composer). But Guthrie was the real deal:
> 
> "[T]he best thing that I did in 1936 was to sign up with the Communist Party." (He didn't actually, but the point is, he SAID he did.)


Guthrie was also _not a racist,_ like most Americans.

Let's just chalk it up to 'he was an artist who believed that all men were created equal.'


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

I'm proud to be an American. "Proud" is such a strange word for it though. How about... grateful? I wouldn't have become a flutist if I were a European, my parents wouldn't have encouraged it. They both came from average working class families with little to no exposure to classical music except through radio or buying a record or cassette. Maybe I could have become a singer or an amateur pianist, but not a flutist. You need all the right connections right away to get started, lots of money, etc.

Somehow I balance this with my love for Russia. Certain pieces of Russian music push me so far to the point I think "I must be Russian inside." I feel too at one with the people of Russia just to feel like a spectator. I must be one of them, somehow. And then I remember... America is place for people to discover who they are inside, besides on the outside. I can be a Scandinavian-American, and have a Russian soul, and blend those 2 identities together as something special. America is a place of blending identities.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

I too am grateful to have been born an American and to thus find myself living here. But I find it best, in the long run, to retain a careful objectivity when viewing the history, culture, customs, and politics of one's country. Doctor Johnson had many pithy remarks on patriotism, as shown here:http://www.samueljohnson.com/patrioti.html


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I've walked happily across privately owned land but do not advocate state ownership of the means of production.


Neither do I, it usually ends up bad for all involved.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

I'm proud when I hear Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra, Mahler, much Rachmaninoff, Prokofiev and Schoenberg — as well as Dvorak, Copland and Barber.

Edit: Forgot Stravinsky!


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