# Haitink's Vaughan Williams: a question



## Steve Wright (Mar 13, 2015)

Bernard Haitink's EMI/London Phil cycle of the Vaughan Williams symphonies tends to excite strong views, both pro and con.
Detractors call it 'unidiomatic' - i.e. not fully grasping RVW's idiom (for which I read, that pastoral English mysticism that so often beguiles in his music). 
But can anyone give me any examples of where Haitink is 'unidiomatic'? I have been listening to him alongside Handley and I can't really hear it (I really like both cycles).
Or, to flip the question over, can any Haitink-philes tell me where in the cycle they think he is especially illuminating? Thanks!


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

If you got both Handley and Haitink sets, you wouldn't want to justify your choice (perfect one, by the way!) by reading different opinions on the Internet. Listen to the music, man!

I love this cycle and wouldn't want to be without it. Right now I am almost through RVW 5, one of highlights of the set - I am actually listening to it as I compose this message. The ending of the Lento is just heartbreaking. I wouldn't say Haitink delivers "unidiomatic" or "un-English sounding" performance. He is not my favorite conductor (in particular, I am less than impressed with his Bruckner), but hats off, this is one of the best options around, amazingly consistent.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I think that 'unidiomatic' is a lazy and rather meaningless catch word for meaning 'I don't like it but I'm not going to bother figuring out why.' I only have Haitink's Sea Symphony and my reaction to it was 'bland', 'playing the notes but not much sense of feeling' (which is probably also a lazy definition!) I can say that it is the version which I rarely go to. My current preferences are the live Elder/Halle and (almost a tie) Handley/RLPO.

P.S. In the interests of full disclosure, I am an ex-pat Mancunian so I can't give too much credence to a recording coming from Liverpool :lol:


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I think that some people cannot see past Boult and Handley in VW. Yes, both do it eloquently (before you start having a pop at me). I've read a few of the criticisms of this set over the years and the conclusion I'm left with is that some people aren't as keen on it simply because they feel that Haitink doesn't grasp the 'Englishness' of VW. I mean, how could he? He's a Dutchie!!! Yes, I know it's twoddle but I've read similar rubbish in reviews of Dvorak's symphonies (not 'Czech' enough). I wouldn't say Haitink's set is idiomatic - its certainly quite intense and beautifully recorded - but it is quite different to Handley's. It's much more dramatic. Personally I'm not a huge fan of all of VW symphonies but enjoy the freshness that Haitink brings to them but then I'm happy listening to Beethoven played by Czechs, Schubert by Americans and Mozart by Brits.


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## Kivimees (Feb 16, 2013)

Azol said:


> If you got both Handley and Haitink sets, you wouldn't want to justify your choice (perfect one, by the way!) by reading different opinions on the Internet. Listen to the music, man!
> 
> I love this cycle and wouldn't want to be without it. Right now I am almost through RVW 5, one of highlights of the set - I am actually listening to it as I compose this message. The ending of the Lento is just heartbreaking. I wouldn't say Haitink delivers "unidiomatic" or "un-English sounding" performance. He is not my favorite conductor (in particular, I am less than impressed with his Bruckner), but hats off, this is one of the best options around, amazingly consistent.


I have to agree here. I don't think there's a better version of No. 7 to be had. IMO, the least impressive part of this cycle is the box.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Merl said:


> I think that some people cannot see past Boult and Handley in VW. Yes, both do it eloquently (before you start having a pop at me). I've read a few of the criticisms of this set over the years and the conclusion I'm left with is that some people aren't as keen on it simply because they feel that Haitink doesn't grasp the 'Englishness' of VW. I mean, how could he? He's a Dutchie!!! Yes, I know it's twoddle but I've read similar rubbish in reviews of Dvorak's symphonies (not 'Czech' enough). I wouldn't say Haitink's set is idiomatic - its certainly quite intense and beautifully recorded - but it is quite different to Handley's. It's much more dramatic. Personally I'm not a huge fan of all of VW symphonies but enjoy the freshness that Haitink brings to them but then I'm happy listening to Beethoven played by Czechs, Schubert by Americans and Mozart by Brits.


You could add Barbirolli to your first sentence.
RVW seems to be getting more respect now than during his lifetime, if we use the yardstick of recordings of his music. Back in the day he was criticized for not being a Serialist, a Bitonalist, or whatever. His music required advocacy and this was best done by Conductors that were his colleagues, namely Boult, Barbirolli, and some lesser Brit Conductors. Perhaps their close relationship with the Composer gave them some insights but RVW music is truly universal, and it is a sign of this strength 
that non Blighty Conductors can sound credible. The first on disc was Previn, then Slatkin and Haitink.
The best music is Universal and knows no boundaries. Have you heard the Russian cycle with Rhozdo?
Great stuff!


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Triplets said:


> Have you heard the Russian cycle with Rhozdo?
> Great stuff!


No, but I will investigate.


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## Bill Cooke (May 20, 2017)

Kivimees said:


> I have to agree here. I don't think there's a better version of No. 7 to be had. IMO, the least impressive part of this cycle is the box.


I agree - Haitink's reading of Symphony 7 is magical. I've never felt like hunting down another.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Haitink, Boult, Barbirolli, Slatkin, Previn, Handley...they're all excellent and perfectly valid ways of playing these great, if difficult, symphonies. You can nit pick all you want about how this conductor handles this section compared to another, or how one guy's tempos are better than the others. It doesn't matter: they're all fine recordings made by superb musicians and played with great orchestras. Enjoy!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I have Haitink's VW 1st and 5th, and had no idea they were "unidiomatic" until somebody here said they were. I think they're beautiful. I have Boult's and think they're wonderful too. Has anyone heard VW conduct his own works? Now _that_ would be idiomatic! Sibelius thought Karajan's conducting of his works was great. He thought Ormandy's was too, and Ormandy's sounds nothing like Karajan's. So there you have it.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I have Haitink's VW 1st and 5th, and had no idea they were "unidiomatic" until somebody here said they were. I think they're beautiful. I have Boult's and think they're wonderful too. Has anyone heard VW conduct his own works? Now _that_ would be idiomatic! Sibelius thought Karajan's conducting of his works was great. He thought Ormandy's was too, and Ormandy's sounds nothing like Karajan's. So there you have it.


There is a recording of RVW conducting his 4th. There are also plenty of recordings of Boult & Barbirolli recording the symphonies with RVW present to critique, especially the premiere of the 8th.


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## techniquest (Aug 3, 2012)

Bill Cooke said:


> I agree - Haitink's reading of Symphony 7 is magical. I've never felt like hunting down another.


I wondered if Kivimees might have been talking about the Handley 7th; surely there can be no recording of that symphony that exceeds his. That being said, I'm not familiar with the Haitink set so I may well have to investigate.



> P.S. In the interests of full disclosure, I am an ex-pat Mancunian so I can't give too much credence to a recording coming from Liverpool


Oh, how very northern :lol:


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

I think Merl has struck right at the heart of this nonsense. There is nothing unidiomatic about Haitink in RVW! The only one of his rexcordings I am less sure about is No.3, where I feel Haitink makes too much of the "pastoral" as opposed to the "Flander's Fields/wasted lives" aspects. Another Dutch conductor, Kees Bakels did a cycle for Naxos (well, 7/9!) and he's almost as good. 

Previn's "English", so he doesn't count as a foreign conductor, ditto Slatkin! And yes it's tough to look beyond the Englishmen, Boult, Handley, and sadly the remnants of a Hickox cycle. Vaughan Williams doesn't belong exclusively to us English, and as long as he is seen to, the longer he'll remain a minor composer, something he emphatically is not!


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## Kivimees (Feb 16, 2013)

techniquest said:


> I wondered if Kivimees might have been talking about the Handley 7th; surely there can be no recording of that symphony that exceeds his. That being said, I'm not familiar with the Haitink set so I may well have to investigate.


I assure you there were no mistaken words in my highly subjective opinion. :lol:


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I never knew you were a fellow Manc, Becca! What part of Mancunia do you come from?


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Kivimees said:


> I have to agree here. I don't think there's a better version of No. 7 to be had. IMO, the least impressive part of this cycle is the box.


Actually, I was referring to No.5 in my post, but I do believe Bryden Thomson's recording of No.7 is even more engaging and impressive. Not to diminish Haitink, that only by a slight margin in 3rd and 5th movements.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

What are Macunians? A race of kilt wearers descended from Paul McCartney?


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## Omicron9 (Oct 13, 2016)

Any thoughts about the BBC/Davis cycle?


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Omicron9 - I do like Andrew Davis' cycle with the BBC SO. It's very "musical", a weak word, I know, but there is a pleasant and reassuring way he lovingly dwells on individual phrases. As a first or only cycle, it could end up being labelled as "dull", though. There is little fire in, say, No.6, and there are elements of film score that come across with works like No.3 or No.9, as well as the obvious No.7. I like it as a reassuring and comfortable cycle. I know that sounds like tainted praise, but i mean it in a positive way.


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## Omicron9 (Oct 13, 2016)

Robert Pickett said:


> Omicron9 - I do like Andrew Davis' cycle with the BBC SO. It's very "musical", a weak word, I know, but there is a pleasant and reassuring way he lovingly dwells on individual phrases. As a first or only cycle, it could end up being labelled as "dull", though. There is little fire in, say, No.6, and there are elements of film score that come across with works like No.3 or No.9, as well as the obvious No.7. I like it as a reassuring and comfortable cycle. I know that sounds like tainted praise, but i mean it in a positive way.


Thanks, Robert; most helpful. I'm looking for a good set of the complete symphonies; open to further recommendations.

TIA,
-09


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## Alfacharger (Dec 6, 2013)

Omicron9 said:


> Thanks, Robert; most helpful. I'm looking for a good set of the complete symphonies; open to further recommendations.
> 
> TIA,
> -09


Whatever you get, please include this one recording from Hickox. Magnificent!


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

In which case my first recommendation, despite the many merits of Haitink, would have to be Vernon Handley's set on EMI/Warner.
But you'd emphatically not be going wrong with Boult set 1 or 2, Previn (No.4 is a bit lame with him), Haitink, and for some truly wonderful individual performances, Richard Hickox started a cycle on Chandos, Nos. 2,4,6, And especially 3 are out of this world!


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

As ever I caution against complete single conductor sets of anything. While the Handley set is probably as close to one as I'd go, the 1st always seemed to suffer from a strange balance between soloists and everyone else, which is part of why I'd go with the Mark Elder/Halle. As to the 6th, there is a quite remarkable live concert recording available with John Barbirolli conducting the Bavarian Radio S.O. which trumps any others that I've heard.

Also, as alfacharger mentioned, you absolutely must get the Hickox recording of the original 1913 version of the London Symphony. RVW would probably be really annoyed but that is the one that I always listen to in preference to the final 1933/36 version.


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## Taplow (Aug 13, 2017)

Kivimees said:


> I have to agree here. I don't think there's a better version of No. 7 to be had. IMO, the least impressive part of this cycle is the box.


I have this much more impressive box:










It gives these symphonies a slightly _fruitier_ aspect, I find.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Ha!

Of course the box makes all the difference


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## Omicron9 (Oct 13, 2016)

Excellent; thank you, my fellow Vaughan Williamsians. I am looking to get a complete set/single box set kind of thing. Too pricey to get one-by-ones. Once I've become more familiar with the works, then I'd be interested in expanding to various other single-disc performances.

Really, very much appreciated.

-09


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Steve Wright said:


> Bernard Haitink's EMI/London Phil cycle of the Vaughan Williams symphonies tends to excite strong views,... can any Haitink-philes tell me where in the cycle they think he is especially illuminating?
> View attachment 98355


Yes. Here's a portion of a review I wrote several years back:

In the words of Vaughan Williams, his Third or "Pastoral" Symphony is "almost entirely quiet and contemplative". By this measure, Bernard Haitink deserves credit for providing a most faithful interpretation. He pays homage to the work's plaintive and tranquil elements, and his spiritual/emotional range has greater breadth than that of Sir Adrian Boult, who generally takes more of an extroverted approach in both his Decca and EMI conceptions. Although often attractive in its way, Boult's more outward looking perspective tends to gloss over some of the music's subtle details, whereas Haitink's instrumental tonalities are more clearly and fully resolved. His superb orchestral execution frequently paints an enchanting portrait. Currents of solemnness are sensitively captured, and quieter moments reflect a convincing atmospheric presence. Repeated listening pays new dividends and increases my appreciation for Haitink, whose thoughtful, absorbing approach I prefer to the offerings of Boult, Handley and Thomson. The only other version of this haunting piece I particularly favor is Andre Previn's with the London Symphony. It is quite musically appealing, but Haitink's interpretation seems to get the measure of this piece somewhat better.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Another presumably unidiomatic conductor would have been Paavo Berglund who did a very good Symphony 6 with the Royal Philharmonic. To be honest I am not sure exactly what idiom they have to understand to do the 4th, 6th and (probably) the 7th.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Berglund's 4th is very very good as well. Thought that one was with the Royal PO, and the 6th with Bournemouth? Maybe I'm just confused....


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I have Haitinck's box. Beautifully recorded. Very good value at the time I bought it


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## R3PL4Y (Jan 21, 2016)

I think this is a very good box. With the wide range of styles spanned in the symphonies of Vaughan Williams, the word "unidiomatic" loses most of its meaning. Sure, there are great recordings of all of these works by English conductors. But Haitink more than holds his own, especially in numbers 1, 3, and 4. However, they are all very good. In regards to him not being "english" enough, even if one thinks this argument holds weight in regards to works like the 2 and third symphonies, other symphonies like 4, 6, and 9 contain very little as far as "english" influence goes. Overall, I think that this is a great box and a great first choice for those looking to get into the music of RVW.


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

Alfacharger said:


> Whatever you get, please include this one recording from Hickox. Magnificent!


This is utterly superb.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Becca said:


> I think that 'unidiomatic' is a lazy and rather meaningless catch word for meaning 'I don't like it but I'm not going to bother figuring out why.' I only have Haitink's Sea Symphony and my reaction to it was 'bland', 'playing the notes but not much sense of feeling' (which is probably also a lazy definition!) I can say that it is the version which I rarely go to. My current preferences are the live Elder/Halle and (almost a tie) Handley/RLPO.
> 
> P.S. In the interests of full disclosure, I am an ex-pat Mancunian so I can't give too much credence to a recording coming from Liverpool :lol:


Glad you managed to escape from the wrong end of the E.Lancs.Rd. Not that it seems to have helped much.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Animal the Drummer said:


> Glad you managed to escape from the wrong end of the E.Lancs.Rd. Not that it seems to have helped much.


My rationality justification is that I was almost (but not quite) across the Cheshire border. :lol:


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Inspired by this thread, I am listening to the Haitink/London Phil set now. I am on the 5th right now and I find it quite convincing. Although I will say that the 1st kind of makes me chuckle. Understanding the English operatic portions sort of drags me out of things. "Flaunt out visible as ever the various ship-signals!"

Overall I don't feel a need to seek out an additional set. This one seems to possess both good recordings and good performances.


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

MatthewWeflen said:


> Inspired by this thread, I am listening to the Haitink/London Phil set now. I am on the 5th right now and I find it quite convincing. Although I will say that the 1st kind of makes me chuckle. Understanding the English operatic portions sort of drags me out of things. "Flaunt out visible as ever the various ship-signals!"
> 
> Overall I don't feel a need to seek out an additional set. This one seems to possess both good recordings and good performances.


I had this site and decided to go on a Vaughan Williams spree which vielded me some great buys at about £1 each. The Haitink set sense stands up well to any of them although Handley, Orevin and Hickox are all excellent interpreters. It's good to know that this English conductor had his advocates across the Atlantic too in Bernstein, Stokowski and Mitropolous.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

MatthewWeflen said:


> Inspired by this thread, I am listening to the Haitink/London Phil set now. I am on the 5th right now and I find it quite convincing. Although I will say that the 1st kind of makes me chuckle. Understanding the English operatic portions sort of drags me out of things. "Flaunt out visible as ever the various ship-signals!"
> 
> Overall I don't feel a need to seek out an additional set. This one seems to possess both good recordings and good performances.


Remember that RVW was directly setting poems by Walt Whitman, a New England Yankee!


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

Becca said:


> Remember that RVW was directly setting poems by Walt Whitman, a New England Yankee!


He did say quite a few of Whitman's poems


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Slight change of topic, but I must say I am thoroughly enjoying the RVW Symphony series coming out on Hyperion, from Martyn Brabbins. They're up to No.5 now, and there could well be a covid-induced hiatus in the completion of these, but his readings seem to me to have a fine flow, plenty of detail, and he seems to "get" Vaughan Williams on the button.

Some interesting fill ups on each CD too!


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Also Mark Elder and the Halle have finished their cycle and there is an ongoing cycle with Andrew Manze and the RLPO.


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

It’s good to see RVW getting his due.


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