# Are Bruckner’s Stops And Starts Unique?



## DLOinQUEENS (Nov 22, 2018)

Hi All,

I’m trying to better understand Bruckner’s symphonies, and, as I think we all know, one of their most striking characteristics, are the starts and stops, or the silent pauses if you will. I am just a casual listener with no musical education, but I’ve listened to tons of traditional symphonies (I don’t listen to atonal or experimental works fwiw) and I can’t recall ever hearing this technique applied so liberally.

Also, as I understand it, some of these symphonies (or parts thereof) were not warmly received initially, and can still sound a bit jarring to new listeners; while others (or again, parts thereof) are obviously and immediately transcendent (the 7th adagio comes to mind).

My questions are: 

Considering the lukewarm early reception of some of these works, were the starts and stops on Bruckner’s part intentional, or were they perhaps a limitation of his compositional technique? If they were intentional, do they work in your mind, and what was the reasoning behind them?

Just as a comparison: if you take Schmidt’s Symphony No 4, composed well after Bruckner, but somewhat in his shadow I guess, the whole piece is constructed as one continuous movement, with no real stops or starts from what I remember. This seems to indicate that Bruckner’s style was a bit unique, and not broadly applied in his wake - or are there other, similar works or composers that I should investigate (nothing atonal please, as I cannot yet understand it)?

Thanks in advance!


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## Ned Low (Jul 29, 2020)

Bruckner useed the ternary form ( A_B_A) in his symphonies, the b part is usually the inversion of the a part. I'm not sure about it but i think sometimes by using pauses he wanted to separate these parts . Or it could be that he wanted to seperate the parts within these. I know i might be wrong but that's what i think they are for. Hope someone more knowledgeable is able to help.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Those starts and stops pose a big problem for conductors who attempt Bruckner....if the flow, the momentum is lost, then things get very choppy and episodic...the cohesion of the music falls apart to a large degree...
one of the reasons I favor conductors like Solti, Walter and von Matacic in this music is that they keep the flow going....it doesn't lose direction...


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

DLOinQUEENS said:


> Were the starts and stops on Bruckner's part intentional, or were they perhaps a limitation of his compositional technique? If they were intentional, do they work in your mind, and what was the reasoning behind them?


I think they were intentional. He was an organist, and he composed like he was writing for an organ. And like he did on an organ, his comment on the pauses was, "Whenever I have something new and important to say, I must stop and take a breath first."

Tim Smith in the Baltimore Sun says of Bruckner's compositional process that "themes - more commonly, groups of themes that can be heard together as a single, large thought - are laid out like so many granite stones; usually, there's even a pause between these building blocks so that you can't help but notice the differentiation."

Personally, I'm not bothered by the pauses. If the recording is in a sufficiently resonant acoustic, when there is a pause and the resultant echo, it gives his pieces a cathedral-like sound.


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

The pauses are for dramatic effect. Often times, they become a tease because the pause occurs right after a loud and dissonant chord making them deceptive; for after the silence you usually get a soft passage. It works for me.


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## Bruckner Anton (Mar 10, 2016)

I think he might want to produce the effect of an organ on an orchestra. Loud brass tutti needs a relatively long pause to fade out before the next block of music begins. His continuous, repetitive, sometimes ambiguous approaches could reflect both the influence of Wagner and his indecisive characteristic.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Heck148 said:


> Those starts and stops pose a big problem for conductors who attempt Bruckner....if the flow, the momentum is lost, then things get very choppy and episodic...the cohesion of the music falls apart to a large degree...
> one of the reasons I favor conductors like Solti, Walter and von Matacic in this music is that they keep the flow going....it doesn't lose direction...


Von Matacic was a distant cousin of mine. I don't dislike Bruckner but I haven't yet fallen under his spell, so maybe I should seek out cousin Lovro's recordings.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Animal the Drummer said:


> Von Matacic was a distant cousin of mine. I don't dislike Bruckner but I haven't yet fallen under his spell, so maybe I should seek out cousin Lovro's recordings.


Von Matacic was not well- known in the US..imo, he's a very excellent conductor, from whom I've never heard anything that wasn't very fine...he scored big-time with some major orchestral blockbusters:
His LvB "Eroica" with CzechPO is one of the very best..great recording...
His Bruckner 7 with CzPO is also a winner, way up in the rankings (gorgeous opening!!)
That's top rankings, (for me) in 2 of the greatest symphonies in the repertoire...
I also have some more fine Bruckner, and Rimsky-Korsakov that are very excellent.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

I you ever have the opportunity to hear a Bruckner symphony played in a large, old European church or a concert hall with a long reverb time (like Boston) you'll know exactly why those pauses are there. The reverb in the building lets the music linger and fade into nothingness. It's an astonishing sound and you'll never forget it. I don't think a recording, even Surround Sound, can capture the effect.


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## Ned Low (Jul 29, 2020)

mbhaub said:


> I you ever have the opportunity to hear a Bruckner symphony played in a large, old European church or a concert hall with a long reverb time (like Boston) you'll know exactly why those pauses are there. The reverb in the building lets the music linger and fade into nothingness. It's an astonishing sound and you'll never forget it. I don't think a recording, even Surround Sound, can capture the effect.


I somehow agree with you. Have you listened to Wand's Bruckner 8 or 9 with NDR Sinfonieorchester recorded in Lubeck Cathedral? Maestro Wand slowed down his tempo in order to get a better reverberation. Howevere, i guess you had to be there to experience the desired effect.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

mbhaub said:


> I you ever have the opportunity to hear a Bruckner symphony played in a large, old European church or a concert hall with a long reverb time (like Boston) you'll know exactly why those pauses are there. The reverb in the building lets the music linger and fade into nothingness. It's an astonishing sound and you'll never forget it. I don't think a recording, even Surround Sound, can capture the effect.


The Sonics of the performance hall are really quite crucial to interpretation and style of playing..
With a very live, reverberant hall, a fast tempo can be disastrous....the new notes are beginning before the previous ones have died out...this can create a real mishmash of sound, with garbled harmonies, obscured lines, and mushy, unclear rhythm....a slower tempo allows the sounds to decay, die out, before new tones are added.
With a very dry, non-reverberant acoustic, the problem is opposite...notes must be played, held, full length, sustained until the next tones sound...otherwise, we get clipped phrases, abrupt cutoffs, and strange silences, "holes in the music", so to speak....the conductor must be aware of these qualities of the performance hall... 
Same with the musicians...with a very live, boomy hall....a very centered, not too resonant reed may sound great, the hall filling in the resonant tone....for a very dry hall, a more resonant, round sounding reed will work better.


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## Marc (Jun 15, 2007)

Bruckner himself somehow gave the answer to an almost similar question in 1873, when the young Arthur Nikisch (who played violin in the Wiener Philharmoniker back then) asked him during the rehearsals before the premiere: "Maëstro, why all the pauses?" Bruckner answered: "If I think I have something new and important to say, I should be allowed to take a deep breath first!"


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I don't know why the pauses but I do know that they present a challenge (for me as a listener or for the conductor, I'm not sure). There are plenty of conductors who can make them work for me - Celibidache, Wand, Haitink - and quite a few others who many greatly like in Bruckner that fail to make me accept the stop-start. I think it depends on how hectoring the loud parts (before the pauses) seem to my ears.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

*Are Bruckner's Stops And Starts Unique?*

Not so unique, I should think. 
Concerning the Bruckner symphonies, I must say I am glad he started writing them. I lament that he stopped. Not just in the middle of the Ninth, but for good. I could never have enough Bruckner Symphonies and wouldn't have minded had he rivaled Myaskovsky, Havergal Brian, or (to nail the point!) Leif Segerstam for numbers. Alas ....


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