# Keeping up



## Guest

I just did a wee stroll through the offerings here after catching up with the posts to etkearne's long thread.

And it occurred to me that it might be interesting to ask the TC group designated as "Today's Composers" how important it was to each of you to keep up with current music.

How important is it to each of you to keep up with current music?

Here's a couple of examples of things that are happening today, the first one from literally today, 20 December, 2012.*

http://ilse.bandcamp.com/album/after-the-storm

http://vicmoddougtheriault.bandcamp.com/

http://music.audiogourmet.co.uk/track/untitled-264

http://mathka.bandcamp.com/album/luc-ferrari

*released today, that is.


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## aleazk

_how important it was to each of you to keep up with current music.

How important is it to each of you to keep up with current music?_

I don't care a cra.p, I compose what I want. So, if I compose like those people mentioned in your post, I will be considered by you as "today's music"?. What an honor... your attitude of coming here like some kind of "guru" down from heaven to tell people what's modern and what's not, is, to say at least, stalinist. It's rather pretentious. I invite you to compose the music you like and to post it here.


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## PetrB

My computer is very slow to download fuller bitLoad audio. So I did a quick scan of each piece.

I have one question. Can any of this music be performed without the benefit of electricity? If yes (and it seems so) then your selections are radically one-sided, and therefore seeming to have an 'agenda,' or carrying with that selection a somewhat snarky air (which, btw, I've come to expect of you as a near constant) of a subtext, "You who are not writing this way are completely behind the times / what you are making not like this is invalid."

How important was it..... In my youth and while in school, and for a while after -- Very Important, regardless of my personal taste or ability, I wanted to know what was going on around me - this included current 'trends' of taste, the wave of more general interest and acceptance of 'traditional' or 'classical' non-western musics, electronics, and all else.

Once out of school, no matter how great, contemporary the spin of your training, there is always much to 'unlearn' in order to get to 'what you can write' and to have it be in any way both interesting and 'expressive' of something -- in short, that cliche 'your own voice.' In that period, and often until even later, it is often best to ignore everything, the old, the new / newest, to not influence you in any way whatsoever, as well as not being a hand-held crutch or 'excuse' to not write however you can write.

Later, after the fact of somewhat defining and becoming comfortable in one's own compositional skin _(ADD: And recognizing ones limitations and working with them or knowing where to push.)_, at least for me, I was happy enough, and still curious (to this day) to check out all aspects and styles of 'what others are doing.'

As much as I have more than likely gained a repute for hard-core elitism, musical snobbism or any all and such, I hope I do not come off as one who seems to think they 'own music' or are 'privy to owning the truth,' some elements of which I seem to catch at least a drift of from many of your posts -- _(ADD: to be fair, about as often as not.)_

It is not so rare to become such a sensationalist for the new that one can no longer recognize merit in anything but that narrow channel of one genre within the new. I think you 'are there.' Perhaps it is in strong reaction to the public who consume nothing but genuinely antique music, but either as listener or training artist, anyone knows that, or learns it very quickly en route.

What you've posted, from my hit and miss listening of each piece, is also nothing 'very new.' really. Electronic music goes back to the late fifties and sixties, and other than the toys and sound generators, at least what I heard of these pieces, there is very little fundamental difference between this batch and music from some sixty years ago... so if you were trying to 'make a point' with the selection, it failed to make one on this old fart, at least.

My friendly suggestion: Pick up a pencil, manuscript paper, or go into that electronics lab and become a producer rather than a consumer.


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## Guest

Probably best to keep to the topic and leave off the speculations about the person who floated the topic.

This is true whether your speculations are accurate (neither of the two so far is that) or not. They would be equally off-topic.

The links I provided are to a very small sampling of some of the things going on today. Only a very few. They are only examples. There is no agenda to present these as the best thing going--I don't even use concepts like "best" in my own thinking.

They present something rather different from what I have found here in this forum, hence my curiosity. Hence my supplying them. Perhaps I shouldn't have.

If you want to ignore the clips, please do. I don't want them to be distracting. Just to show where my question is coming from is all.


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## StevenOBrien

I listen to composers I like, such as Glass and Adams, along with a few other composers on this forum who I admire . I'll try new things sometimes to see if I like them, but I never force myself to listen to or keep up with anything.



PetrB said:


> In that period, and often until even later, it is often best to ignore everything, the old, the new / newest, to not influence you in any way whatsoever, as well as not being a hand-held crutch or 'excuse' to not write however you can write.


I don't think I understand. Surely you're not suggesting that new composers just lock themselves away from the world and slavishly try to come up with their own "voice" out of thin air?

Composing for me is all about exploring music and finding your own place within the vast tapestry that surrounds you. You start out obviously derivative and imitative of your favorite composers, and as you explore further and you find new composers that suit your tastes, your palette expands. On top of that, you sometimes accidentally discover new ways of doing things, and you find that you prefer these "mistakes" to the ways which you previously thought "correct".

You never force yourself to try to be innovative or "new". If it's going to happen, you just let it happen naturally.

For the lucky ones (in terms of artistic recognition), eventually your style has grown so much that you're in completely uncharted territory. New composers who like your music will grow from your style, and the cycle continues.

Now, on the other hand, if you're saying that composers should never try to "fit in" to what seems to be the "contemporary style", then I completely agree with you. Compose what you want to compose, not what you (or worse, others) feel you should compose. Listen to what everyone has to say, but only follow the advice that resonates with you.


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## KenOC

aleazk said:


> What an honor... your attitude of coming here like some kind of "guru" down from heaven to tell people what's modern and what's not, is, to say at least, stalinist.


The OP asked a simple question: "How important is it to each of you to keep up with current music?" And the term "current" obviously means "very recent." I'm not real clear why this should lead to insults.


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## paulc

some guy said:


> How important is it to each of you to keep up with current music?


Not very.

I was going to make some jokes about the recordings being made by sampling someone tripping over a microphone cable with a dry solder joint. I then read that one of the artists deliberately employed static and re-recorded his music while he walked around his house, presumably to "****-ify" the sound. So, very hard to judge the music itself.

'It has all been done before'


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## Crudblud

I am not biased towards or against new music, if something sounds good to me it won't make a bit of difference when it was made. However, I do not follow any magazine sites like Pitchfork or NME to catch up on new releases, nor do I trawl Soundcloud and Bandcamp for the latest indie material. If friends recommend me something new, I will listen to it, but that doesn't happen very often.

So I would answer your question by saying that it is not important to me at all.


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## PetrB

Okeedoh - let's say the OP has a very channeled interest in current electronic music, and that is fine. The narrow channel of selection, I thought, implied that those not into / on that channel may not be 'up to date.

A mono obsessive interest in an artist is not at all an unhealthy thing  Maybe I would not have triggered on the misinterpretation if the OP had said, "I have more than a strong near singular interest in new electronic music." Or just asked the question without adding any links at all - leaving it more neutrally an open inquiry.

ADD: It is to be hoped that of any response, all readers would implicitly understand the respondent is 'with' their own set(s) of opinion, aesthetics, criteria -- conscious or other: the respondent need not qualify or excuse those aspects in any way. 
There is an entirely different consideration to forming an OP question -- eliminating as much of that personal taste / bias in order to make a neutral question which will not inadvertently 'color' the responses. 
To my way of thinking, an OP question is a much greater 'responsibility' and needs that much more careful consideration as to its wording, what is included.


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## PetrB

StevenOBrien said:


> .... I don't think I understand. Surely you're not suggesting that new composers just lock themselves away from the world and slavishly try to come up with their own "voice" out of thin air?
> 
> You never force yourself to try to be innovative or "new". If it's going to happen, you just let it happen naturally.


_"Surely you're not suggesting that new composers just lock themselves away from the world and slavishly try to come up with their own "voice" out of thin air?"_

The answer is 'of course not.' Many who have trained in performance since childhood, been immersed in common practice through modern repertoire for decades prior a full stint in conservatory and get around to comp often have to find 'something of their own' which does not sound too much, anyway, like a generic style of one era or another, or worse, music which reminds the listener so strongly of another composer to the point where the listener thinks, "I'd rather be hearing the original than this." [This is almost an antithetical premise / goal for those who hope to do film soundtracks.]

"Find your own voice" is often enough a near-mantra heard by the student from the prof.

At that juncture, I have, and have known a number of others to have done the same, just 'turned off' almost all external input (listening to any other music, studying any other music) in order to quietly write, not dwell on any and all past and present influence. You are loaded for bear with centuries of influence anyway, trained or not.

Literary writers and painters have the same dilemma: this has nothing to do with holing up hermit-like to become the next radical avant-gardiste, but avoiding a lot of contact so that -- as a hypothetical example -- your neo-romantic music is not too similar to Mahler, Korngold, Barber, or anyone else. No one exists in a vacuum -- or perhaps 'the deity' does -- but none of us earthbound creatures do.

_"You never force yourself to try to be innovative or "new"."_ I vehemently disagree. Unless you are happy with your current style, one deliberately seeks out some way of writing, or something about the approach to that next piece, which is wholly outside of your comfortable boundaries. Otherwise, any progress, including a further development / refinement of your 'style' is near static.

I suppose there are two fundamentally different temperaments. Some are more interested in constantly re-inventing what they do from piece to piece (Stravinsky / Lukas Foss) and others seem to be more interested in refining and defining their harmonic language, techniques, compositional processes, and going down that one road (Hindemith / Steve Reich.)


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I keep up to date with the music from all eras.


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## oogabooha

I try to keep up with composers and music from all eras and genres, like CoAG said above. I love going to the library and picking up the latest classical recordings that come in, but I also enjoy going on bandcamp and finding new music myself, whether it be finding an experimental composer's work or a punk band's music. It's important to be aware of the music around you, no matter what type of music it is. However, this doesn't replace the regular listening time I give to earlier periods of music.


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## millionrainbows

I think it's good too "keep up" with movie soundtracks, because that is the cutting edge of technology. Many of them use orchestral software and scoring software. As "real" orchestras get more expensive, it's a great way to produce symphonic sounds on a low budget. It's good for composers, too; how else could they instantly hear the results of what they scored? And should the opportunity arise to use a real orchestra, they'll be ready. Plus, cinema reunites music with drama and action, which gives the composer the impetus to "express" whatever emotion or atmosphere is called for; young composers need this, not a blank piece of score paper or an "arty" idea.


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## PetrB

millionrainbows said:


> I think it's good too "keep up" with movie soundtracks, because that is the cutting edge of technology. Many of them use orchestral software and scoring software. As "real" orchestras get more expensive, it's a great way to produce symphonic sounds on a low budget. It's good for composers, too; how else could they instantly hear the results of what they scored? And should the opportunity arise to use a real orchestra, they'll be ready. Plus, cinema reunites music with drama and action, which gives the composer the impetus to "express" whatever emotion or atmosphere is called for; young composers need this, not a blank piece of score paper or an "arty" idea.


Bzzz False! Midi combined with the best sample library will not tell a composer the acoustic truth of dynamic balances within an orchestral piece; all that gear says nothing of the nature of what happens as per what is required of the players as written in an actual brick 'n' mortar building and its acoustic properties.

If one studies no other music, it could lead someone to believe that:
1.) unrelated polystylistic musical episodes of no more than a few minutes' length, when strung together, make a piece which would sustain a listener's interest for the duration.
2.) that highly derivative content, a sort of imitative amalgam of earlier 'classical' composers through the most contemporary music, is writing 'truly original music.'
3.) that film music is earnest 'classical music.'

I think there are more and more who are utterly seduced by current technology: current technology as per music manipulation and production has thousands of great uses, and can, in itself, be used as a new tool and instrument. IMHO, It will be at least several decades well into the future before that technology is any worthwhile 'virtual substitute' for acoustic instruments, writing for them, learning how they behave -- if it will ever reach that level of true utility at all.

Of course most are well aware film music is not 'classical music' and rarely, unless very well reworked after the fact of the film score, will it ever be. But to be responsible, with those less aware, and, say, those self-taught / self-teaching composers, I'd not suggest film scores. I would re-direct them away from most of the genre as strongly as I would re-direct them away from digital composition with samples, protools and all the studio engineering tools and toys because it is not at all the way to find out how to write for instruments, or handle instruments solo or as part of an ensemble.


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## Ukko

What _PetrB_ said in post #14 above in regard to composition of classical music. Composing movie, midi, metal. punk, whatever, if that's your bag it's fine with me - because (with any luck) I won't have to listen to it.

:tiphat:


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## PetrB

Also going on 'now.' if one has concerns about "keeping up."
Pavel Karmanov ~ Invisible Music (2012)




Someone could make an OP about 'keeping up' and cite three links of recent pieces by this composer, or other contemporary music in a similar vein....
_There are many things happening in any simultaneous 'now.'_


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I am going to see the Australian premiere of Australian composer Brett Dean's "Electric Preludes" next year.
For the last few years I have always been going to see a new Australian opera.


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## Ramako

I, to the great surprise of everyone, no doubt, have absolutely no interest in keeping up with the musical times, or any other kind of times except gastronomic, sanitary, educational, technological etc. etc. (sort of like, what have the Romans ever done for us? )

Anyway, while I dislike the 'find your own voice' sort of mentality, there is some truth in it. I don't actively seek out my own voice, but do experiment quite a lot with the sounds of notes, with analytical thinking and the like, and after some time these kinds of ideas filter through into my music. Nothing startlingly original or interesting, but it's enough for me. I am much more bothered about the 'quality' aspect of my music than the stylistic aspect of it. While that may be the hardest thing to work on, it seems to me to be the most important. I guess that I figure that an individual voice may or may not come as a consequence of me trying to improve my technique, and I would rather not actively seek it out. Occasionally I do seek out originality, but this usually comes from vanity of thinking, and the results are usually not good.

Of course, composing as part of a curriculum, which I currently have to do, is a different matter, and requires me, as some guy puts it, to 'keep up'. Therefore I actively, at least for some of my output, have to find ways to write music that is 'new' and 'keeps up' while still being natural enough for me to get as good a mark as possible. In this sense, I suppose, on a part-time basis at least, yes I do strive to keep up with the times


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## Crudblud

Ramako: What do you dislike about the "find your own voice" mentality?


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## Ramako

Crudblud said:


> Ramako: What do you dislike about the "find your own voice" mentality?


Sometimes individuality seems to take a higher priority than quality. I agree that quality is highly subjective, but it seems to me that one should always strive to be the best one can. Also there's some kind of pseudo-mystic stuff that I've come across on this subject which puts me off.

EDIT: this is the sort of thing I'm talking about

http://derekbermel.blogspot.co.uk/2006/02/someone-elses-music.html


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## Crudblud

Ramako said:


> Sometimes individuality seems to take a higher priority than quality. I agree that quality is highly subjective, but it seems to me that one should always strive to be the best one can. Also there's some kind of pseudo-mystic stuff that I've come across on this subject which puts me off.
> 
> EDIT: this is the sort of thing I'm talking about
> 
> http://derekbermel.blogspot.co.uk/2006/02/someone-elses-music.html


Ah, yes, that is quite silly. Initially I thought you were attacking people for writing what they want to write, but I can see that isn't what you meant at all.


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## PetrB

Ramako said:


> Sometimes individuality seems to take a higher priority than quality. I agree that quality is highly subjective, but it seems to me that one should always strive to be the best one can. Also there's some kind of pseudo-mystic stuff that I've come across on this subject which puts me off.
> 
> EDIT: this is the sort of thing I'm talking about
> 
> http://derekbermel.blogspot.co.uk/2006/02/someone-elses-music.html


Well, yes, that is rather precious, while at its core, I 'get' what the teacher was speaking of. You, with all your required comping, are at just that sort of juncture, writing while wearing the costume, as it were, of others as required for assignments.

I believe 'your own voice' is meant quite literally, and is not meant as 'analogous:'

We speak and use -- let us say -- the same or similar language, but each of us has something so distinctly idiosyncratic that slight differences of timbre, non-specific pitch, rhythm, and 'contour' distinguishes one 'tenor' speaking voice from another. 
This is why, even when blindfolded, many can readily distinguish one speaker (of the same gender and with the identical 'range') from another, even if they are speaking exactly the same words. Sung or spoken, everyone has a voice as unique as fingerprints.

The dictum, then, is simply to musically, 'be yourself.' which is often, mid or just post training, a very difficult thing to know or do 

I am more than 100% in agreement as to 'quality,' i.e. the writer's attention to quality without any other concerns is I think the best approach -- really all a composer needs to think of while working. If you have an idea and determine first and foremost what the nature of that idea is, what that kernel is 'supposed' to become, and then best serve it with the craft you have at your disposal, the likelihood the piece will be successful is far greater.

It is the opposite of 'ego' in that you get yourself out of the way, and craftsman like, best serve the idea. (This is identical to 'the high goal' in performing -- applying the years of work and knowledge toward being an open and oracle-like servant, not the master. That is a concept which is nearly impossible for younger people to accept

Ironically, I think the more you do 'get out of your own way,' the more an individual's personality shows up in the music.

'Your own voice,' is then analogous in this one way; your work is better off having a 'personality.'


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## hreichgott

I try to keep up with "new to me" music as much as possible, but it could be from any time period.

I have to say that as a performer a lot of my time is taken up in hearing the same pieces over and over as I practice them. This week I've "listened" a great deal to the piano part of Beethoven's third piano concerto, the Fantasiestucke Op. 12 by Schumann, and the Toccata by Prokofiev at an uncharacteristically slow tempo, and "listened" at least ten or twelve times to some new piano music (Hi Steven!) and some accompaniments for choir. Occasionally a couple of review/fun pieces in there too. This adds up to 15-20 hours of the week spent listening to the same handful of pieces, and most of those hours will be the same pieces the next week and the week after. I do listen to music when I'm not playing, but listening tends to make me want to play, unless members of the household are sleeping or I'm in the car or something. So I really appreciate enthusiastic listeners like on this forum who spend tons of time listening to lots of different music. They've always got something to recommend that I have never heard. In some ways the full-time listeners are better educated than performers.

I imagine the same is often true of composers as well. Composing must, if anything, be more time-consuming than practicing for performance.


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## StevenOBrien

hreichgott said:


> and "listened" at least ten or twelve times to some new piano music (Hi Steven!)


Hey, how's it going?


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## hreichgott

The slow one is about ready to be recorded. The fast ones, not yet


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## arsnova

For me it's not a case of 'keeping up', but I think that the desire to write music that says something unique, or trying to do something new goes hand in hand with the desire to create music. Therefore exposing oneself to as much contemporary music as possible is essential, and inevitable.

There are of course lots of 'new' avenues though, in this post-modern, or post-post-modern culture in which we live...


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