# Off-Kilter pieces appreciation thread



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

No, not another hate thread in disguise. Post some pieces that are challenging to the taste. I have a good tolerance, given the right context.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Wow, that's definitely off-kilter. More like proto-Yoko Ono.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Not going to listen, I've rejected Scelsi long ago
Very low tolerance level here, extremely selective in what I will, accept as The High Arts,. \
Standards must be maintained ,,otherwise,,things could easily, rapidly deteriorate, and get completely out of hand.


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## Minor Sixthist (Apr 21, 2017)

paulbest said:


> Not going to listen, I've rejected Scelsi long ago
> Very low tolerance level here, extremely selective in what I will, accept as The High Arts,. \
> Standards must be maintained ,,otherwise,,things could easily, rapidly deteriorate, and get completely out of hand.


What things could rapidly deteriorate? We're just as capable of accessing Tchaikovksy on YouTube, if we so wish, as we are Scelsi. Nobody is forcing any kind of music on you.

What exactly is getting out of hand, and as a result of what? I'm not trying to interrogate you, just have an idea what you mean.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

paulbest said:


> Not going to listen, I've rejected Scelsi long ago
> Very low tolerance level here, extremely selective in what I will, accept as The High Arts,. \
> Standards must be maintained ,,otherwise,,things could easily, rapidly deteriorate, and get completely out of hand.


There must be order! Discipline must be maintained! The hounds of chaos are nipping at our heels! The creature has been spotted on the outskirts of town, near the power plant! Remain calm! Do not panic! Remain in your homes!

...and don't forget to boogie...


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Minor Sixthist said:


> What things could rapidly deteriorate? We're just as capable of accessing Tchaikovksy on YouTube, if we so wish, as we are Scelsi. Nobody is forcing any kind of music on you.
> 
> What exactly is getting out of hand, and as a result of what? I'm not trying to interrogate you, just have an idea what you mean.


well, I was thinking over exactly your Q. , as per my nebulous complaint above.
The thought occurred to me just now and was going to open a topic, *the future of the orchestra,,,* I'll explain in a moment, I can't here lest I get blame for hijacking this topic.
so look for a new topic from me, when I find the time later today.,,,,thanks for consideration....


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2019)

paulbest said:


> well, I was thinking over exactly your Q. , as per my nebulous complaint above.
> The thought occurred to me just now and was going to open a topic, *the future of the orchestra,,,* I'll explain in a moment, I can't here lest I get blame for hijacking this topic.
> so look for a new topic from me, when I find the time later today.,,,,thanks for consideration....


Paul Best is back! It seems like it's been decades!


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Baron Scarpia said:


> Paul Best is back! It seems like it's been decades!


Hey guy, Remember you and others donned me \The Great Iconclast.
Well, had to look the word up,,and sure enough,,,all now made sense. 
It was you and others who felt I possessed angst enough to ,,,re-evaluate the musical world of classical,. 
What I am saying lately, is where will the resources of future generations go towards, ,. The oldm, true and tried, the modern,,or the post moderns.

I've finally, just this year, came around to your suggestion of looking at Henze,,,took some 15 yrs to *get* Henze,,well actually I fell away from the CM arts, and had some issues going on. 
Now I am back with a vengeance.

Not only am I trying to show how the past is the past, which we hold in highest esteem and honor,,yet in order for the Modern composers to live in the light of day, some of the old mmust give way for The New Moderns to live and breathe in the record studios and concert halls. Even FM radio waves.

and also that Post modern composers should stay in the place and not disrupt this emergence of Modern Composers, who have yet to be given full recognition. Schnittke, Pettersson, Carter, Henze.

Post modernism , is it CM or another genre? 
This is the Q we are discussing now.

Is Rihm in the same category as Carter and Henze? Ligeti, where does he and Stockhausen fit in? If at all.

Challenges up ahead.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Phil loves classical said:


> No, not another hate thread in disguise. Post some pieces that are challenging to the taste. I have a good tolerance, given the right context.


The vocalist seems to have been murdered by the cellist.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

paulbest said:


> Post modernism , is it CM or another genre?
> This is the Q we are discussing now.


Although you said you did not want to hijack this thread, you've done just that.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

well I had to look up the word kilter,,a hunch here was not good enough,,,i know what the OP means to say by *off kilter* its a euphemism for some work which is *out of bounds* = in foul territory, far left field, ,,,= fallen off the rail tracks,,broken down in the middle of the desert. smoething along those lines...
But should we even give such stuff the space on the General Classical Muisc topic board. Is Scelsi really classical music...or something other than?
Off Kilter or ,,junk music. ?
This is all I'm asking. 
And how about Ives, Berio? 
Classical genre, or something other than?


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## Minor Sixthist (Apr 21, 2017)

I think the singer's midwife abandoned her at the critical moment to go pick up a cello. Just my interpretation.

Let's be exact about this: murder screams would be higher-pitched, more terror. These? labor, or wit's-end 3-am losing-my-sanity frustration. Granted there's overlap there, I'm sure.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Minor Sixthist said:


> I think the singer's midwife abandoned her at the critical moment to go pick up a cello. Just my interpretation.


I'm curious if Scelsi meant for there to be these vocal outbursts or if that is an interpretive interpolation.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> The vocalist seems to have been murdered by the cellist.


Here's what might be viewed as an off-kilter quartet by Widmann that has vocals. As I mentioned in another thread, "admittedly the late, annoying, guttural vocalizations from the cellist required action but killing him seemed somewhat over the top."


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## Minor Sixthist (Apr 21, 2017)

Manxfeeder said:


> I'm curious if Scelsi meant for there to be these vocal outbursts or if that is an interpretive interpolation.


Interesting question, I can't imagine it's too hard to answer. This case reminds me of Theofanidis' "Rainbow Body," if you're familiar, this modern piece based on a Buddhist idea of rebirth - I don't remember exactly, but in one recording in particular, the musicians on stage ended up shouting passionately on stage at the climax, even though I don't think it was originally written into the music, and I believe the idea stuck, so many or most orchestras still perform it like that.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Scelsi – when I hear music like that, I just get SO angry – I really can‘t control it at all, I just want to get that big knife from the kitchen drawer and…

Oh Lord, what a mess! This is going to cost a mint to clean up. Maybe I’d better stick with Mozart.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Minor Sixthist said:


> Interesting question, I can't imagine it's too hard to answer. This case reminds me of Theofanidis' "Rainbow Body," if you're familiar, this modern piece based on a Buddhist idea of rebirth - I don't remember exactly, but in one recording in particular, the musicians on stage ended up shouting passionately on stage at the climax, even though I don't think it was originally written into the music, and I believe the idea stuck, so many or most orchestras still perform it like that.


The first recording of Rainbow Body (Spano/Atlanta) which won the 2003 Masterprize did not have that. Personally I can't see that it would do much for the work.


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## Minor Sixthist (Apr 21, 2017)

Becca said:


> The first recording of Rainbow Body (Spano/Atlanta) which won the 2003 Masterprize did not have that. Personally I can't see that it would do much for the work.


I'm indifferent. The shouting had at least something do with the religious motif the piece was supposed to represent, one in Tibetan Buddhism having to do with reincarnating as a rainbow being if the soul was worthy. If not that then something similar. It doesn't help that I don't enjoy the music in the first place. It's almost overbearing, or relentless, in trying to represent some dramatic rebirth to the point it overdoes it. Let's just say one German did it better - this one doesn't leave me feeling immensely _auferstanden._


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

mmsbls said:


> Here's what might be viewed as an off-kilter quartet by Widmann that has vocals. As I mentioned in another thread, "admittedly the late, annoying, guttural vocalizations from the cellist required action but killing him seemed somewhat over the top."


Interesting piece. I liked this version better. The yell by the cellist is also more convincing.

https://www.earsense.org/chamber-music/Jorg-Widmann-String-Quartet-No-3-Jagdquartett/?ri=5


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