# 20th century playlist



## Wood (Feb 21, 2013)

The BBC recently ran a short series on 20th Century _avant garde_ music. It led to a debate between Mahlerian and MacLeod about whether or not the programme was for or against this stuff.

I have large gaps in my collection of music from this period, so I used the programmes as an opportunity to create a list of key works, which I am sharing here. This will create an interesting purchasing / listening project at some point in the future.

I would like to ask if there are any more works you think should be included in this list? For every work you wish to add, please say which you would delete. The list is plenty long enough for my current requirements!


Strauss, R.SalomeDebussyPrelude l'apres midi d'un faunSchoenbergThree piano piecesSchoenbergSQ2WebernSix bagatellesSchoenbergFive orchestral piecesStravinskyRite of SpringStravinskyFirebirdCharles IvesThree places in New EnglandCharles IvesConcord SonataVareseAmeriquesGeorge GershwinRhapsody in blueGeorge GershwinAn American in ParisCoplandRodeoCoplandLincoln PortraitCoplandBilly the KidCoplandAppalachian SpringCoplandFanfare for the common manMosolovIron FoundryShostakovichLady Macbeth of MtsenskShostakovichSymphony No. 5ShostakovichSymphony No. 7MessianQuartet for the end of timeMessianScale of gyrations and dynamicsBoulezPiano Sonata No, 2BoulezLe marteau sans maitreBoulezReponsStockhausenSong of the youthsStockhausenStimmungXenakisEontasXenakisKottosXenakisMetastaseisNonoLa fabrica illuminataNonoIl canto sospisoLigetiChamber concerto for 13 instrumentsLigetiRequiemLigetiLux aeternaLigeti2001: A space odysseyPeter Maxwell DaviesRevelation & fallBirtwhistleTragoediaBirtwhistlePunch & JudyCage4' 33"CageWater walkCageMusic of changesFeldmanFour instrumentsFeldmanPiano piece (to Philip Guston)FeldmanRothko ChapelRileyIn CColtraneVigilGlassMusic in twelve partsGlassEinstein on the beachGlassMusic in similar motionReichFour organsReichDrummingPartFur AlinaPartTabula rasaPartSpiegel im SpiegelTavenerThe whaleTavenerThe protecting veilTavenerSong for AtheneBenjaminAntaraBenjaminAt first lightAdamsNixon in ChinaAdamsThe death of Klinghoffer


----------



## Schubussy (Nov 2, 2012)

Add: Witold Lutosławski - Symphony No. 3
Remove: Cage	4' 33” (was struggling to decide before I saw that  )


----------



## Garlic (May 3, 2013)

Nice list. Obviously this is all totally subjective and based on personal taste but I'd include...

Mahler - Symphony No. 9, Das Lied von der Erde
Debussy - Jeux, Preludes ("Faun" isn't 20C though I understand the justification for including it)
Berio - Sinfonia, Coro
Messiaen - Chronochromie, Oiseaux exotiques
Varese - Deserts
Berg - Wozzeck, Lulu, Three Orchestral Pieces
Ravel - Daphnis et Chloe
Boulez - ...explosante-fixe...
Carter - Double Concerto, String Quartet No. 3, Symphony of 3 Orchestras
Schoenberg - Moses und Aron, Violin Concerto
Webern - Symphony, Variations op. 30
Scelsi - Uaxuctum, Quattro pezzi
Dutilleux - Tout un monde lontain
Stockhauen - Klavierstueck X
Grisey - Les espaces acoustiques

That's enough for now. I don't really want to say what should be deleted because I don't want to offend anyone by deleting their favourites, but personally I'd remove the Part, Tavener, Glass, Gershwin and Copland. If we're including Coltrane there should be some other jazz as well. btw "2001" isn't a Ligeti piece. edit- I've done it wrong, I should have swapped each piece for another piece, sorry


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I'm curious: how did those Copland works end up on an avant garde list?


----------



## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Manxfeeder said:


> I'm curious: how did those Copland works end up on an avant garde list?


I think it should be considered a "20th century" list, and that's fine.

I would add Ravel's Piano Concertos as well, and Strauss's Elektra (which went further than Salome along the path towards total chromaticism).

Also, the Messiaen piece is "Scale of _durations_ and dynamics", although your title is quite amusing...


----------



## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

I would pick one Gershwin and one Copeland work only, forget 4' 33" and substitute:

Bartok: Concerto for Orchestra or Violin Concerto No. 2
Sibelius: Symphony No. 7
Hindemith: Violin Concerto
Berg: Piano Sonata
Webern: 5 pieces / movements for String Quartet Op. 5


Like Mahlerian, I'd go for Elektra in Richard Strauss's oeuvre

And (personal bias I agree) I'd take something from Frank Bridge's later modernist period, e.g. the piano sonata


----------



## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Copland's 2nd Symphony is more modernist if you want to go that way. Remove Fanfare, which is just a fragment (like pulling the Ode To Joy chorus out of B9).

I'd also put in a vote for Duckworth's Time Curve Preludes, although it is not widely known. Take out Fur Alina, though it's a nice piece. 

Reich's a Music for 18 Musicians over Four Organs.

Maybe I'm just not seeing it, but is the Berg Violin Concerto there? Take out Ligeti 2001 (isn't that Lux Aeterna?).

I could go on. E.g., Shost 10 over 7.


----------



## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

Great list, Woods. There a good bit of things I still need to check out. :tiphat:


----------



## Guest (Nov 16, 2013)

Dear Wood,

I have been devouring twentieth century music for over forty years. 

This list you present us is very possibly the oddest list I have ever seen. Everyone knows by now that I'm not terribly fond of lists. So I'm sure someone will point that out to you when advising you to ignore my advice.

But my advice is to not use this list.

I started to make a list myself, if you can believe it. (No, neither can I.)

When I got to forty two items from only six composers, I thought better of it.

The twentieth century is full of goodness. Dive in.

--some guy


----------



## MagneticGhost (Apr 7, 2013)

You must make room for Messiaen's Turangalila Symphony. Essential 'Modernist' listening.


----------



## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

some guy said:


> Dear Wood,
> 
> I have been devouring twentieth century music for over forty years.
> 
> ...


You're an eccentric, intelligent chap. I quite like it.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Add....
Piano music by Leo Ornstein
Messiaen: Turangalîla-Symphonie
Ginastera: Concerto for Strings
Ginastera: Cello Concertos
Schnittke: Symphony no. 1
Schnittke: Concerti Grossi 1-3 at least, great if you got all 6
Feldman: String Quartet 2
Xenakis: Jonchaies
Xenakis: Ata
Xenakis: Kraanerg
Ferneyhough: Terrain
Nyman: Musique à Grande Vitesse
Pateras: Chromatophore
Dean: Komarov's Fall
Dean: Viola Concerto


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

some guy said:


> Dear Wood,
> 
> I have been devouring twentieth century music for over forty years.
> 
> ...


I'm seconding not using this list, or paying much earnest attention to any and all on it, or paying it much heed as a decent educating tool -- because it really is odd, lumpy, incomplete, too complete where it doesn't matter, etc.

So... it is not much good, only a little.

No... ungenerous ******* that I am I am not going to revise it or bother to present a new one. There are dozens of on-line articles and many decent books which delve into 20th century repertoire, any far more on the money than this presented here.

ADD: A second look at the list has me thinking it is beyond just a little patchy / skewed -- it is wildly patchy / skewed. Best to go to any of several recommend lists from "audiophile" guides, whether from radio stations, publishers of musical tomes, hell, even Wiki may be better than this wildly odd list


----------



## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

It is an odd list, because there's a lot of good stuff you're missing (even a lot of good genres), and some people are way over-represented given who you're leaving out. . . Bartok, Prokofiev, Britten, Tippett, Crumb, Sibelius, Wolpe, Nielsen, Rochberg, Janacek . . .

Still, it's not a bad start.


----------



## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Add....
> 
> Dean: Viola Concerto


Is his name Brett or Brent Dean, I've seen both, and it isn't two different people. 
Anyway, there will be a four day new music festival next January here in Vancouver, and Mr Dean will be here to perform his viola concerto.


----------



## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

Anybody for The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady?


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

senza sordino said:


> Is his name Brett or Brent Dean, I've seen both, and it isn't two different people.
> Anyway, there will be a four day new music festival next January here in Vancouver, and Mr Dean will be here to perform his viola concerto.


Brett. And that's awesome that he's coming to perform it! I love the concerto (apart from the first couple of bars of the second movement :lol and I hope you enjoy it if you go see it.


----------



## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

PetrB said:


> ADD: A second look at the list has me thinking it is beyond just a little patchy / skewed -- it is wildly patchy / skewed. Best to go to any of several recommend lists from "audiophile" guides, whether from radio stations, publishers of musical tomes, hell, even Wiki may be better than this wildly odd list


I think the immediate impetus for this list is the BBC program from earlier this year. Most of the selections above were featured or mentioned. If it's taken as a starting point, it could be worse, but yes, it ignores many great composers and some important styles of the composers it does feature.

The reason why I don't second some guy's notion that diving right in is better is that if the OP heard about these pieces from that program, perhaps they are the ones that he/she wants to know more about. Diving right in can come whenever the OP hits upon something that intrigues him/her.


----------



## Wood (Feb 21, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> I think the immediate impetus for this list is the BBC program from earlier this year. Most of the selections above were featured or mentioned. If it's taken as a starting point, it could be worse, but yes, it ignores many great composers and some important styles of the composers it does feature.
> 
> The reason why I don't second some guy's notion that diving right in is better is that if the OP heard about these pieces from that program, perhaps they are the ones that he/she wants to know more about. Diving right in can come whenever the OP hits upon something that intrigues him/her.


Thank you to everyone for their responses here.

The durations / gyrations mistake is quite amusing. I was making the list in real time during the programme, and uncritically included all works mentioned.

I have already dived right in to this period, but inevitably that leaves gaps. I've heard plenty of cowpat music and music from living British composers but have nothing from Messiaen to Ligeti in the list above, for example.

So whilst I understand PetrB and Someguy's objections, and appreciate that the list is skewed, I am just looking for a brief survey of music from this period. I can delve deeper later. Obviously, given the incredible wealth of diversity of compositions in this period, I will only be scratching the surface in 60 or 70 works.

Nevertheless, I intend to tweak the list based on the comments made in this thread (and any still to come) and as a listening project for a few months I think it will be pretty fine.


----------



## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

Yea, I figured this list wasn't for someone who was completely blind to this area. But for someone who wanted to have a little fun and fill some of the cracks. Enjoy!


----------



## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

You want a list? Here you go. This should be all inclusive - except that even it is not.

Cambridge University Library
Music Department
Planning Document for Acquisition of Scores
20th and 21st Century Composers


----------



## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

Haha, that would be more of a head-ache than a source of pleasure.


----------



## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

From the original list I would remove Coltrane (just because jazz cannot enter this list - or alternatively should be much more present) and add at least one work by Bruno Maderna. I was thinking of his "Quadrivium" for 4 percussionists and 4 orchestral groups.


----------



## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

and (if the website allows me this...) I would replace the Prelude a l'apres midi d'un faune with Pelleas et Melisande.


----------



## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

GioCar said:


> and (if the website allows me this...) I would replace the Prelude a l'apres midi d'un faune with Pelleas et Melisande.


But that was also written in the 19th century, even if it wasn't performed until the 20th. Both are modernist works, though.

Another thing that came to me, and something that I think the program would have been better with, is one of Schoenberg's early works, in which the influence of Strauss is especially clear. His own Pelleas und Mellisande, Op 4 (a tone poem), would make a good introduction to his style.


----------



## otterhouse (Sep 6, 2007)

I think the program the Symanovsky quartet played in Amsterdam last month was awesome... --> http://classicalspotify.blogspot.nl/2013/10/the-szymanowski-quartet-in-amsterdam.html

R.


----------



## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

You gotta add Cage's Sonatas and Interludes for prepared piano, and Souvenir for pipe organ. Also "2001" features music by Ligeti, but isn't a piece by him. I'm not going to suggest removal of pieces because thats stupid.'

I also recommend Stockhausen's Gruppen, Varese's Arcana and Ecuatorial, Gubaidulina's Musical Toys and Chaconne.


----------



## MJongo (Aug 6, 2011)

How on earth is there no Mahler on that list?

My suggestions:
Mahler - Symphony 9, Das Lied von der Erde
Ives - Symphony 4
Shostakovich - Piano Quintet
Messiaen - Turangalila-symphonie
Varese - Deserts
Mingus - The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady
Riley - A Rainbow in Curved Air
Reich - Music for 18 Musicians
Schnittke - Concerto Grosso 1


----------



## hreichgott (Dec 31, 2012)

Agree about the Copland pieces -- the ones listed are the farthest from avant-garde that he wrote -- maybe check out some of his piano pieces.
Is there a reason for so much early 20th c. and so little late 20th c.? Just curious, and maybe this is more of a question about the BBC program.

Your list would be enriched by Takemitsu, Saariaho, Hovhaness and Gubaidulina for sure.


----------



## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

hreichgott said:


> Agree about the Copland pieces -- the ones listed are the farthest from avant-garde that he wrote -- maybe check out some of his piano pieces.
> Is there a reason for so much early 20th c. and so little late 20th c.? Just curious, and maybe this is more of a question about the BBC program.


In brief:

Episode 1: Debussy writes Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun. Schoenberg hears Strauss's Salome and decides he wants to destroy music. He brings "emotionally stingy" Webern along for the ride. Stravinsky writes Petrushka and Rite of Spring before disappearing. Varese describes city life in Ameriques, and Ives describes the America he knew. Gershwin plays tennis with Schoenberg and writes the Rhapsody in Blue, but nothing else.

Episode 2: Crazy people do crazy things! Messiaen decides that rhythm can be serialized, and writes birds into his music. Boulez, Nono, and Stockhausen write unlistenable intellectualisms, while Ligeti and Xenakis work out their war trauma through musical extremes. Shostakovich defies Stalin, and Copland defies McCarthy.

Episode 3: Music has left Europe forever, so the focus switches to the UK and the US. Cage writes random notes and silent pieces. Feldman writes slow meditative music. Glass and Reich bring back the harmony, rhythm, and melody that had gone away, and Arvo Part saves spirituality. George Benjamin (he was featured as a presenter throughout) experiments at IRCAM. John Adams saves music!


----------



## SimonNZ (Jul 12, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> Episode 3: Music has left Europe forever,


Heh - a freind of mine who recently finished the multi-volume Taruskin History confirmed my suspicion (from scanning the contents pages) that he goes off the rails in the final volume, with a view not so very far from this.


----------



## Guest (Nov 19, 2013)

MJongo said:


> How on earth is there no Mahler on that list?


Probably for the same reason that Dvorak is not on that list. Or Saint-Saens. Or Grieg. Or Rimsky-Korsakov.

Because they are all 19th century composers who lived on into the twentieth century without their music changing in any way from what it had been before an arbitrary date.

Why on earth, one might ask, is it always Mahler and never any of those other guys?

Rusalka, for instance, has more of the one thing most people identify as the single most characteristic feature of "modern" music than any "twentieth century" piece by Mahler. And the late tone poems are very "modern" sounding.

And for the other quality, no one's more conservative sounding than Saint-Saens. And he lived much further into the twentieth century than any of those other pikers. )) I'd think Saint-Saens would be the poster boy for conservative listeners, not Mahler. Saint-Saens or Elgar.


----------



## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> Episode 3: Music has left Europe forever


May be just for a while...


----------



## Guest (Nov 19, 2013)

N.B.--Mahlerian's post was parodic.


----------



## MJongo (Aug 6, 2011)

some guy said:


> Probably for the same reason that Dvorak is not on that list. Or Saint-Saens. Or Grieg. Or Rimsky-Korsakov.
> 
> Because they are all 19th century composers who lived on into the twentieth century without their music changing in any way from what it had been before an arbitrary date.


Referring to Mahler, are we listening to the same composer? There seems to me a huge difference in style and emotion between, for example, the 5th and 9th - and both are 20th century!


----------



## Guest (Nov 19, 2013)

Probably "changing in any way" was not the most accurate way of expressing things.

But surely. There's a huge difference in style between _Benvenuto Cellini_ and _Les Troyens_--both of them 19th century works. Neither of them, for all their differences in style and emotion (!), anything outside the bounds of "19th century Romanticism."

There's a huge difference in style et cetera between _Le Sacre_ and _L'histoire,_ too, without making either of them anything but 20th century modern.

Sure, there's a difference between Mahler's fifth and ninth. There's a difference between the second and the fourth, for that matter.

Without any of them being anything but late nineteenth century romanticism. Which, since that's what a lot of classical music listeners prefer, it's no wonder that it keeps trying to sneak into the twentieth century. And since some of it was actually written in the actual "20th Century," it seems a shoe-in, eh?

But that's only if the rules change. Baroque is both a style and a period of time. Classical is both a style and a period of time. Romantic is both a style and a period of time. "20th century" is only a period of time.

That's cheating.

And my question remains, why Mahler? (I.e., why not Saint-Saens, et cetera?)


----------



## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

some guy said:


> And my question remains, why Mahler? (I.e., why not Saint-Saens, et cetera?)


Saint-Saens' music did not audibly shift in response to Debussy, Ravel, et. al. If anything, he retrenched further.

Mahler's music changed very clearly following his contact with Schoenberg and his music. He had always had an interest in asymmetrical phrase lengths, but this tendency is increased beginning with the Sixth Symphony. By the Ninth, Mahler was even making use of the overlapping phrase structures that define Schoenberg's style. Unresolved dissonances began to proliferate in his scores. Likewise, the Seventh uses quartal harmonies and themes built on fourths. Das Lied von der Erde features passages where the pulse is obscured nearly to the point of inaudibility by cross-rhythms and asymmetries in the melodic line.

There are easily audible ways in which he led the way forward as well. Mahler's style of orchestration is that of the 20th century, almost from the beginning: each instrument treated individually. The idea of _Klangfarbenmelodie_, that parts of a single line can be distributed amongst several instruments and even different ranges of the orchestra, comes from Mahler. Schoenberg's interest in Mahler's music (stemming from a performance of the Third in particular) comes right around the time he wrote the Chamber Symphony, and Berg and Webern likewise looked to him as a model for their styles.


----------



## Guest (Nov 19, 2013)

Ah, that's more like it!

That's something that's logical and makes sense.

Not sure I totally agree with it, of course, but that may just be sheer cussedness for the sake of being cusséd.

But I acknowledge its logic and even its persuasiveness.

This would be a natural place to start talking about what we mean by "modernism,"* no? And how modernism is different from late romanticism--how some modern trends _grew out of _late romanticism. How other trends were _a clean break_ from it.

Could be fun, eh?

*modernism being different from but overlapping what we mean when we say "20th century," as per Mahlerian's earlier observation about some late 19th century stuff being "modernist."


----------



## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

I do not see Penderecki or Carter on list.

I would delete Gershwin and Copeland, not that I am not a fan, but I don't think they are the best representatives of 20th century composers. 

I would also remove Coltrane, again, I am a huge fan, but he seems out of place on the list. If they're going to include jazz, why not Monk, Cecil Taylor, Dolphy?

I would include:

Penderecki - Violin Concerto no. 2 “Metamorphosen”
Penderecki - Sextet
Carter - 1st and 2nd String Quartets
Carter - Concerto for Orchestra
Samuel Barber - Piano Concerto op 38
Samuel Barber - Medea's Dance of Vengeance
Britten - Four Sea Interludes
Ernst Krenek - Statisch Und Exstatisch
Rautavaara - Cantus Arcticus


----------



## Guest (Nov 19, 2013)

Coltrane gets on these lists because of name recognition. Brubeck, too.

Cecil Taylor's much more like it.

And Ornette Coleman and Anthony Braxton.

And Peter Broetzmann.

And the people on this list of "aggressive improvisers" that Wiki picked up: John Zorn, Borbetomagus, the Lounge Lizards, James Chance, James Blood Ulmer, Sonny Sharrock, Marc Ribot, Diamanda Galás, Bill Laswell. I would not have called everyone on this list a "jazz" musician, but then that's a reality of the twentieth century, from roughly 1960 on, a reality that never gets its due, I think, that you have musicians from the rock, jazz, and classical traditions all doing very similar things--and hanging out with each other, too. Some prominent (well, prominent to the people for whom they are prominent, anyway) "classical" composers started out in rock--like Heiner Goebbels.

I use the scare quotes, because by the time you get to someone (or someones) like Goebbels (or Zorn or Nurse With Wound or Borbetomagus or Merzbow or Christian Marclay), you have got to music making that doesn't seem to fit any of the old categories. (Rock excepted. In the 1960's rock was still a _new_ category. Think of that. Before Elvis's pelvis had barely had a chance to stop gyrating, there were already "rock" musicians doing stuff outside the boundaries of "rock." Velvet Underground, Silver Apples, even the late Beatles. And the seventies and eighties had tons of stuff that people like myself who enjoy avant garde classical also enjoy, and for the same qualities. (Think Throbbing Gristle or Nurse With Wound.)

I'd like to see the story of the twentieth century include not only the emancipation of sound but the emancipation from categories.


----------



## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

some guy said:


> Coltrane gets on these lists because of name recognition. Brubeck, too.
> 
> Cecil Taylor's much more like it.
> 
> ...


I agree with you to a large extent.

Interesting that may love for avant-garde classical lead me in a somewhat different direction than to Throbbing Gristle or NWW, but to: The Thinking Plague, Univers Zero, Aranis, Henry Cow, Motor Totemist Guild, 5UUs, Far Corner...

A pretty complete list of avant-garde prog - http://www.progarchives.com/subgenre.asp?style=36


----------



## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Mahlerian said:


> ...
> 
> Episode 2: Crazy people do crazy things! Messiaen decides that rhythm can be serialized, and writes birds into his music. Boulez, Nono, and Stockhausen write unlistenable intellectualisms, while Ligeti and Xenakis work out their war trauma through musical extremes. Shostakovich defies Stalin, and Copland defies McCarthy.
> ...


Oh, Mahlerian!, you can't imagine how I laughed with this!.


----------



## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

some guy said:


> N.B.--Mahlerian's post was parodic.


but has a grain of truth indeed. 
The most interesting composers, towards the end of the century, are from outside (continental western) Europe. No new Boulez or Stockhausen or Berio. Many from the US, some from the UK, some from eastern Europe or Scandinavia.


----------



## Guest (Nov 20, 2013)

Lachenmann
Marchetti 
Andre
Lopez
Azguime

That's one each from Germany, Italy, France, Spain, and Portugal.


----------



## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

It seems to me that "Modernism" was not the sole legitimate musical voice of the 20th century any more than it was the sole legitimate voice in literature or visual art. I don't even think we can define Modernism in such a manner that we can clearly recognize who is or is not a card-carrying Modernist and who is something else.

Member Wood spoke of listening to a program devoted to 20th century _avant-garde_ music and the desire to expand his collection of music from this period. One might thus question whether his goal is to broaden his collection of 20th century music that was deemed _avant-garde_ (and by whom?) or whether his goal is to broaden his collection of the finest (again, according to whom?) music of the period.

Personally, I like a lot of music from the 20th century. Some is often defined as having been _avant-garde_ at the time of its inception; some was Impressionist, Romanticist, Post-Romanticist, Regionalist, Neo-Classical, Expressionist... some was something else altogether.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Wood said:


> ...
> I would like to ask if there are any more works you think should be included in this list? For every work you wish to add, please say which you would delete. The list is plenty long enough for my current requirements!


It would take me too long to add and delete things, but generally I would go for one or two key works of each composer, not three or more as is the case with some on the list. My choice based on innovations and influence, also to some degree importance in terms of popularity and impact, and also taking the list beyond Europe and USA a bit.

These works I would add for their innovations and impact on future generations of composers -

Mahler Symphony #9 and Das Liede
Schoenberg Pierrot Lunaire
Stravinsky Petrushka

These for entering the repertoire quickly (plus the issue of influence)

Holst The Planets
Berg Violin Concerto 'To the Memory of an Angel'

More key microtonal works:

Sculthorpe Sun Musics I-IV
Penderecki Threnody for Victims of Hiroshima
Partch Delusion of the Fury

America's two most popular concertos:

Gershwin Concerto in F
Barber Violin Concerto

Going outside Europe-USA axis, I would definitely add things like this:

Takemitsu Spirit Garden
Villa-Lobos Rudepoema
Chavez Symphony #2 "Sinfonia India"
Shankar Sitar Concerto #1
Ginastera and Piazzolla too!

I would put Shostakovich's Symphony #10 (delete #7).

Definitely add Messiaen's Turangalila Symphonie. Probably Varese's Ionisation too.

Ditto John Cage's Sonatas and Interludes for Prepared Piano (delete 4'33").

I could do more but its too big a job. I would advise any beginner to music of 20th century or other era to start with the big names, a lot of them being the game changer type composers, then funnel down to what you prefer or what matches up with your personal taste. The playlist as it it is okay as a starting point in this regard, in the end I am not too fussy about what pieces are selected, its the names there that count. Also read books on the topic, see what different writers think about the music and the wider context around it. There are all these links between things, and they go back to through the history of music.

Its such a huge and bewildering area, espeically the 20th century which had such huge diversity of styles and approaches (and it continues today, this tendency for diversity, eclecticism and avoidance of schools). So I understand the need for guidance, with the last 100 years I think its paramount even for more intermediate level listeners, or highly specialised ones. Nobody knows everything.


----------



## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

some guy said:


> Lachenmann
> Marchetti
> Andre
> Lopez
> ...


It took me quite some time to find out who these guys are. Very honestly, I've heard before only of Lachenmann (thought I have never listened to any of his works)
From what I found I cannot say they are so significant to be included in any 20th century playlist, but I'm possibly wrong, so I would appreciate a lot if someone can tell me why and how they could represent music in Europe at the end of last century.


----------



## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

I'd say the main deficiency in the early part of the playlist is that the Neoclassical style is barely represented at all. It was the compositional mainstream of Europe between the world wars, and yes, it was derided as being "ultramodern" just as much as anything else.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> In brief:
> 
> Episode 1: Debussy writes Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun. Schoenberg hears Strauss's Salome and decides he wants to destroy music. He brings "emotionally stingy" Webern along for the ride. Stravinsky writes Petrushka and Rite of Spring before disappearing. Varese describes city life in Ameriques, and Ives describes the America he knew. Gershwin plays tennis with Schoenberg and writes the Rhapsody in Blue, but nothing else.
> 
> ...


This is _hysterically funny_, and had me in tears. Thanks.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

My list would include works which show a definite break with functionally-harmonic thinking as well as with Western thinking. These works would include some of Debussy's more radical piano works, maybe from the Preludes. Also, Ives' Concord Sonata, an essay in dissonance for dissonance's sake, in lieu of his more impressionistic works like "Three Places" (although it is beautiful). Messiaen's earlier pre-bird piano music, the Rhythmic Etudes; John Cage's "Music for Keyboard" and his chance-related works; Boulez' Structures, Webern's string works, like the Bagatelles; Schoenberg's String Trio, and both concertos...


----------



## Wood (Feb 21, 2013)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> It seems to me that "Modernism" was not the sole legitimate musical voice of the 20th century any more than it was the sole legitimate voice in literature or visual art.
> 
> Member Wood spoke of listening to a program devoted to 20th century _avant-garde_ music and the desire to expand his collection of music from this period. One might thus question whether his goal is to broaden his collection of 20th century music that was deemed _avant-garde_ (and by whom?) or whether his goal is to broaden his collection of the finest (again, according to whom?) music of the period.


That is a good question. My start point was the BBC series on the 20th Century _avant-garde_ and my excited awareness of how much I still have to discover.

For the purposes of my listening project, I'm really looking to hear fine new stuff, but at the same time to be able to relate it to what I have already heard, hence my familiarity with a portion of the pieces and / or composers on the list.

When this thread has run its course, I intend to create a playlist based on my OP but copiously edited with the significant contributions here. I will sort the final list into chronological order thereby creating my own documentary of 20th century classical music.

I realise this may be seen to be somewhat geeky, but I don't care!


----------



## Wood (Feb 21, 2013)

Sid James said:


> I could do more but its too big a job. I would advise any beginner to music of 20th century or other era to start with the big names, a lot of them being the game changer type composers, then funnel down to what you prefer or what matches up with your personal taste. The playlist as it it is okay as a starting point in this regard, in the end I am not too fussy about what pieces are selected, its the names there that count. Also read books on the topic, see what different writers think about the music and the wider context around it. There are all these links between things, and they go back to through the history of music.
> 
> Its such a huge and bewildering area, espeically the 20th century which had such huge diversity of styles and approaches (and it continues today, this tendency for diversity, eclecticism and avoidance of schools). So I understand the need for guidance, with the last 100 years I think its paramount even for more intermediate level listeners, or highly specialised ones. Nobody knows everything.


Thank you for your recommendations Sid.

Your last paragraph really hits the spot. I have been reduced to randomly selecting from Wikipedia lists when I want to listen to a new composer, for example. This has been fine, but I would also appreciate an element of guidance (whilst recognising that this is not a precise science).

Can you (& others) recommend some books which cover the period?


----------



## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Wood said:


> Thank you for your recommendations Sid.
> 
> Your last paragraph really hits the spot. I have been reduced to randomly selecting from Wikipedia lists when I want to listen to a new composer, for example. This has been fine, but I would also appreciate an element of guidance (whilst recognising that this is not a precise science).
> 
> Can you (& others) recommend some books which cover the period?


Hi Wood: Others will be able to advise you better (and I would appreciate advice myself!), but Alex Ross's The Rest is Noise is a fun history of 20th-century music and has a handy guide to recordings of modernist masters at the end. For more recent composers, you might like to look at Tom Service's blog series about "50 Contemporary Composers": each entry has a list of "key links" to representative works. I've been using it as a guide to unfamiliar repertoire myself.

http://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2013/feb/04/contemporary-music-guide-james-dillon

More than either of these sources, though, I've been learning a lot from our very own "Current Listening" thread!


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Gershwin, John Williams' Star Wars music, Sousa, Deep Purple's Concerto for Rock Group and Orchestra...


----------



## hreichgott (Dec 31, 2012)

Blancrocher said:


> Alex Ross's The Rest is Noise is a fun history of 20th-century music


Alex Ross's The Rest Is Noise is a fun history of music from 1890 through about 1975. For anything after 1975 look elsewhere.

Thanks Blancrocher for the 50 Contemporary Composers link, I'll be doing some listening through those for sure! (and at first glance they seem to be more balanced early 20th c. vs. late 20th/early 21st c. than the Ross book).


----------



## Guest (Nov 28, 2013)

GioCar said:


> It took me quite some time to find out who these guys are. Very honestly, I've heard before only of Lachenmann (thought I have never listened to any of his works)
> From what I found I cannot say they are so significant to be included in any 20th century playlist, but I'm possibly wrong, so I would appreciate a lot if someone can tell me why and how they could represent music in Europe at the end of last century.


Someone said something to the effect that there weren't any significant composers in Europe at the end of the last century. (I did not look for the exact quote.)

So I mentioned a composer for each of several countries is all.

Significant is bound to be a sticking point. Not sure I want to get into that. These are people who are actively composing, who have international careers, who are performed and recorded frequently.

Lachenmann is a leading figure in extended techniques.

Marchetti (Walter) is a leading figure in theatre and multimedia.

Andre is a leading figure in France in extended techniques, carrying on and furthering the work of Helmut Lachenmann.

Lopez is a leading figure in electroacoustics, particularly in drone minimalism. His output is quite varied, but he's probably best known for drone minimalism. He also is one of the more prominent users of silence. Some silences in his works last twenty minutes or more.

Azguime is a leading figure in theatre and percussion music, especially in the use of voice and video. His more important works are technologically sophisticated operas.

They are all quite inventive artists, always coming up with new and interesting things. They are definitely all explorers of sound and of perception.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Wood said:


> Thank you for your recommendations Sid.


You're very welcome.



> Can you (& others) recommend some books which cover the period?


Many of the books I got would be out of print. One of my starting points was Andrew Ford's book Illegal Harmonies from the 1990's which itself was based on a series of radio programs he did on the music of the 20th century. If you can't get that (it is most likely out of print now?) its worth listening to his radio program The Music Show which covers all types of music, from classical to hip hop to jazz and then some.

Apart from being a writer and broadcaster on music, Ford is also a composer, so he's got that insider's view. What I like is that he's not afraid to challenge many of the dogmas underlying music of more recent times. He's informative and in some ways probing as well, he doesn't just give dry information, he also makes links between different types of music and the many approaches musicians are taking today. Thinking back he made a big impact on me, it was on his program that I listened to Messiaen's _Quartet for the End of Time_, and learnt of the story behind it. That launched me in all manner of directions, and I explored a lot since joining this forum.

Another thing is don't be afraid to read a generalist history of classical music, covering everything from the year dot. Again, classical music is about links and references back to its rich traditions and stories. New innovations build on ones of the past. So you've got Mahler and Ives for example who prefigured a lot of what was to come in the rest of the 20th century. Similar going back with Mozart and Haydn, how their innovations looked forward to the music of generations to come. There is the saying that nothing's new under the sun and it definitely applies to music.


----------



## Wood (Feb 21, 2013)

In case it is of any interest, here is the listening list I have compiled from the aforementioned TV programme heavily modified by the contributions to this thread.


AdamsThe death of KlinghofferNixon in ChinaAndreAzguimeBarberPC Op. 38, Medea's dance of vengeanceBartokConcerto for Orchestra, VC2BenjaminAntaraAt first lightBergWozzeck, Lulu, Three Orchestral Pieces, Piano Sonata, VCBerioSinfonia, CoroBirtwhistleTragoediaPunch & JudyBoulezPiano Sonata No. 2, ...explosante-fixe...Le marteau sans maitreRepons, StructuresBrittenFour sea interludesCageWater walk, Sonatas and interludes for prepared piano, Souvenir for pipe organMusic of changes, music for keyboard, <chance works>CarterDouble concerto, SQ1-3, Symphony of 3 orchestras, Concerto for orchestraChavezSymphony No. 2 'Sinfonia India'CrumbDean, BrettKomarov's Fall, VCDebussyJeux, Preludes. Pelleas et MelisandeDe FallaConcerto for harpsichord, flute, oboe, clarinet, violin & celloDuckworthTime curve preludesDutilleuxTout un monde lontainFeldmanFour instruments, SQ2Piano piece (to Philip Guston)Rothko ChapelFerneyhoughTerrainGerhard, RobertoConcertino for stringsGinasteraConcerto for strings, Cello concertoGriseyLes espaces acoustiquesGubaidulinaMusical toys, ChaconneHindemithVC, Mathis der malerHolstThe planetsHoneggerHovhanessIvesThree places in New EnglandConcord Sonata, Symphony No. 4JanacekKodalyKrenek, ErnstStatisch und exstatischLachenmannLigetiChamber concerto for 13 instrumentsRequiemLux aeternaLopezLutoslawskiSymphony No. 3MadernaQuadriviumMahlerSymphony No. 9, Das Lied von der ErdeMarchettiMartinuMaxwell DaviesRevelation & fallMessianQuartet for the end of time, Chronochrome, Oiseaux exotiques, Turangalila SymphonyScale of durations and dynamics, Rhytmic etudesMosolovIron FoundryNielsenNonoLa fabrica illuminataIl canto sospisoNymanMusique a grand vitesseOrnstein<piano music>PartchDelusion of the FuryPaterasChromatophorePendereckiVC2 'Metamorphosen', Sextet, Threnody for victims of HiroshimaPiazzollaPoulencProkofievRautavaaraCantus ArcticusRavelDaphnis & Chloe, Piano concertosReichMusic for 18 musiciansDrummingRileyIn C, A rainbow in curved airRochbergRusalkaSaariahoScelsiUaxuctum, Quattro pezziSchnittkeSymphony No. 1, Concerti grossi 1-6SchoenbergThree piano pieces, Moses und Aron, Violin concerto, Pelleas und Mellisande Op.4SQ2Five orchestral pieces, Pierot Lunaire, String triosSculthorpeSun musics I-IVShankarSitar Concerto No.1ShostakovichLady Macbeth of MtsenskSymphony No. 5, 10, Piano QuintetSibeliusSymphony No. 7StockhausenSong of the youths, Klavierstueck X, GruppenStimmungStrauss, R.Salome, ElecktraStravinskyRite of SpringFirebird, Petrushka, The Rake's ProgressTakemitsuSpirit GardenTippettVareseAmeriques, Deserts, Arcana, Ecuatorial, IonisationVilla-LobosRudepoema, Bachianas BrasileirasWebernSix bagatelles, Symphony, Variations Op.30WolpeXenakisEontas, Jonchaies, Ata, KraanergKottosMetastaseis

Shame about the formatting. Hopefully it represents an improvement on the original effort.

It has now expanded to 79 composers, but I suppose that is just the nature of these things.


----------



## spradlig (Jul 25, 2012)

I would replace Shostakovich's 7th with Shostakovich's 10th, Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue with his Concerto in F, and Webern's Six Bagatelle's with Berg's Chamber Concerto.

I'm a little confused - is this supposed to be a list of the best _avant garde_ music of the 20th century? There are many pieces on the list that almost no one would call avant garde. On the other hand, if it is supposed to be a list of the greatest classical music of the 20th century, then many composers are missing and many composers who are on the list are at least overrepresented.



Wood said:


> The BBC recently ran a short series on 20th Century _avant garde_ music. It led to a debate between Mahlerian and MacLeod about whether or not the programme was for or against this stuff.
> 
> I have large gaps in my collection of music from this period, so I used the programmes as an opportunity to create a list of key works, which I am sharing here. This will create an interesting purchasing / listening project at some point in the future.
> 
> ...


----------



## spradlig (Jul 25, 2012)

Many great composers and works, which are at least much more popular than many of the works on the list, are totally missing from the list. The list seems to make more sense as an "avant garde 20th century list" than a "20th century list", despite some works that almost no one would call avant garde. Otherwise how can you explain three works by Glass, three works by Tavener, three works by Feldman, and the absence of a dozen or so giants of early 20th century music?



Mahlerian said:


> I think it should be considered a "20th century" list, and that's fine.
> 
> I would add Ravel's Piano Concertos as well, and Strauss's Elektra (which went further than Salome along the path towards total chromaticism).
> 
> Also, the Messiaen piece is "Scale of _durations_ and dynamics", although your title is quite amusing...


----------



## mikey (Nov 26, 2013)

GreenMamba said:


> Copland's 2nd Symphony is more modernist if you want to go that way. Remove Fanfare, which is just a fragment (like pulling the Ode To Joy chorus out of B9).


Actually the Fanfare was written before it's inclusion in the 3rd Symphony where it's then developed. So I would say it's perfectly reasonable. Whether you would include it as avant garde is debatable.


----------

