# Composers of the month January 2015 Bartok and Lopez



## Haydn man

Well Happy New Year and here goes with the next 2 composers
Bela Bartok and Francisco Lopez

Please post what you like or dislike about these composers, favourite works and recordings.
What's their place in the history and development of music. Are these guys journeymen or major figures in classical music?
I know little of Bartok and nothing of Lopez, so come on those who made the nominations and get the ball rolling.
We have a full month this time so let's get started


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## Albert7

Okay I'm a huge fan of Bartok honestly. I really love the way that he incorporated his heritage with modernism into his music without being hokey.

Okay my favorite recording for Bartok is:









Bartok is a major figure of 20th century composition easily. He ranks up there with Schoenberg and Webern for me.


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## Haydn man

albertfallickwang said:


> Okay I'm a huge fan of Bartok honestly. I really love the way that he incorporated his heritage with modernism into his music without being hokey.
> 
> Okay my favorite recording for Bartok is:
> 
> View attachment 59994
> 
> 
> Bartok is a major figure of 20th century composition easily. He ranks up there with Schoenberg and Webern for me.


Then this is where I shall start my months listening


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## SimonNZ

Double posted on Current Listening:



SimonNZ said:


> Francisco Lopez's Wind (Patagonia)
> 
> well this does what it says on the tin...its an hours worth of the sound of wind in Patagonia, around various locations, encountering various forms of nature and in conjunction with other natural sounds, in various and possibly edited degrees of intensity
> 
> fascinating, bit I wouldn't have filed this disc under classical in my own collection - but I'll see what else this "Composer of the month" turns up


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## Albert7

Francisco Lopez looks to be rather interesting sound artist. I admit that I know nothing of his works. He is so obscure that like Ablinger my public library doesn't even have a recording or DVD for him whatsoever. So relegated to YouTube again.


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## starthrower

Some of my favorite Bartok recordings.

Contains the orchestral version of the sonata for 2 pianos & percussion, 
and the beautiful viola concerto.










There are a number of recordings for the piano concertos,
but I still enjoy this one after many years.










This Ozawa CD my be hard to come by, but I really like his
version of the Music For Strings, Percussion and Celesta.


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## SimonNZ

I see there's a very tasty-looking 5cd set of Lopez on the Kairos label, which while currently unavailable new is for sale through third party sellers on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/L-pez-Through...swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&sr=8-1&qid=1420076424


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## tdc

Bartok is a top 5 composer for me, my favorite works are his Piano Concertos, String Quartets and Bluebeard's Castle. I think the vast majority of his works are excellent. Here are some of my favorite recordings:


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## tdc

I still need a recording of _Music for strings, Percussion and Celesta_, I love the Fricsay version on youtube, but I'm open to other suggestions. The Ozawa is also one I'm considering.


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## MoonlightSonata

I haven't heard any Lopez before, but Bartok is one of my favourites. His _Mikrokosmos_ is fantastic, and I am currently learning the fantastically colourful Three Rondos on Folk Tunes.


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## Albert7

tdc said:


> Bartok is a top 5 composer for me, my favorite works are his Piano Concertos, String Quartets and Bluebeard's Castle. I think the vast majority of his works are excellent. Here are some of my favorite recordings:


I am a huge fan of the Belcea Quartet version as well. I have that recording too!


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## brianvds

I discovered Bartok in my teens, when I first encountered his piano concertos. I was completely blown away; this was unlike anything I had ever heard or indeed imagined before. Remained a fan ever since - Bartok is the fourth "B".


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## Albert7

Here is an awesome survey of Bartok's work by one of the finest conductors possible 









8 CD's worth and Boulez is very consistent in his high quality Bartok recordings including the Concerto for Orchestra.


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## ptr

Have the five CD set Simon mentions in post #7, Lopez's is the kind of music I listen to the discs in sequence, at night, no lights bar a small candle, fairly loud and it puts me in a subconscious state of being "in" the music (real artsyfarfsy feely stuff.. )

Bartok on the other hand has been a friend ever since I started piano at age seven, A Gyermekeknek was the most fun to lean as it made hours of practising scale much more enduring, then hearing someone like Zoltán Kocsis or Gza Anda play these made me love them even more!

Here a few discs I find essential for the Bartók lover!







.













.















/ptr


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## Albert7

For me Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra has always been a top favorite of mine. I like the complexity of the orchestration indeed.


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## aajj

His Concerto for Orchestra is among the greatest feats of orchestration i've ever heard. 
Three of my favorite recordings are Dorati/Concertgebouw, Dutoit/Montreal and famous Reiner/Chicago.


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## aajj

brianvds said:


> I discovered Bartok in my teens, when I first encountered his piano concertos. I was completely blown away; this was unlike anything I had ever heard or indeed imagined before. Remained a fan ever since - Bartok is the fourth "B".


I love this! I also discovered Bartok in my teens. My high school "music appreciation" teacher talked about the Three B's during one of his snooze-fest lectures and i suggested Bartok as the fourth. He acknowledged Bartok's greatness but would not agree to his place on the Mount Rushmore of B composers.


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## Guest

Your high school music appreciation teacher probably knew nothing of the history of the "three B's," either, did he?

But that's as may be. Bartok is certainly a splendid composer. Another thumbs up for that Belcea set.

Here is my bit about Lopez from the thread for TC member Air that was recently resuscitated:

"Francisco López. Another giant, like Karkowski. Still alive, though. And prodigiously fecund. Plus he puts out a lot of albums. They're not all equally good, but I don't care. I like all of them. There's a fun, concept album called Quartet for the End of Space, which has short pieces by López, Pauline Oliveros, and a couple of other guys.

And there's a five CD box on Kairos, surprisingly enough. (López is more a Staalplaat or Mego kinda guy.) It has some stuff that was out of print for awhile, so its appearance was not only surprising but quite welcome. And good on Kairos for doing a box set.

López is described as a minimal, electroacoustic composer, which is certainly true, but which probably gives the wrong idea. (In this case, for instance, minimal really does mean minimal and not "repetitious" or "phase." Very sparse, stripped down music, with long stretches of silence, some over twenty minutes long. And some superbly loud, and sudden, bits too. Another thing about this description is that it gives a very false idea that López's music sounds pretty much all the same. Pretty much it all sounds quite different.

Anyway, he's a real monster, and if you haven't heard any of his music, you should probably really give it a try. That Kairos box is a great place to start, I'd say. Probably be pretty easy to find. There's one on discogs right now for 24.10 euros. That's 4.82 per disc. Not too shabby. On the Kairos site, it's 25 euros. I'll let you do the math on that one. Should be pretty easy."


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## omega

albertfallickwang said:


> Francisco Lopez looks to be rather interesting sound artist. I admit that I know nothing of his works. He is so obscure that like Ablinger my public library doesn't even have a recording or DVD for him whatsoever. So relegated to YouTube again.


Interesting...
As you just said, it semms to me it is "sound" rather than "music", but I like it. I'll have a closer look.


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## Haydn man

J


albertfallickwang said:


> Here is an awesome survey of Bartok's work by one of the finest conductors possible
> 
> View attachment 59998
> 
> 
> 8 CD's worth and Boulez is very consistent in his high quality Bartok recordings including the Concerto for Orchestra.


Thanks for this recommendation
I have started my orchestral exploration with this with The Four Orchestral Pieces which really grabbed me with the lyrical nature and the changing moods between each.
Shall be steadily making my way through this set as it seems to have the majority of Bartok's orchestral works
Great start to the month


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## MoonlightSonata

Now I think of it, Bartok concerti tend to be very good. The viola concerto and Concerto For Orchestra are my particular favourites.


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## SimonNZ

from current listening:



SimonNZ said:


> Francisco Lopez's La Selva: Sound Environments From A Neotropical Rain Forest
> 
> its still subtle but its easier to discern the overlaying of recordings and the gentle manipulations of the rain forest recordings on this one - and the overall structuring of the presentation


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## Guest

I haven't checked out Lopez's work yet. Is he purely a composer of tape music, field recordings, etc, or are there any instrumental bits. I am enjoying both sides of Luc Ferrari, for instance.


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## D Smith

So, I don't mean to sound like a stick in the mud but... I took the time to listen some of Lopez' "La Selva" on yt. This is music how exactly? I would call it 'sound sculpture' perhaps but not music. It reminded me of sound installations I've visited in museums. None of them made any pretense at being music, however.


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## hpowders

Oh good! Now I have an excuse to listen to Bartok's Second Violin Concerto, not that I needed any!

Due to last month's choices, I had to take a sabbatical leave.


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## Guest

hpowders said:


> Due to last month's choices, I had to take a sabbatical leave.


Classic powder


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## SeptimalTritone

D Smith said:


> So, I don't mean to sound like a stick in the mud but... I took the time to listen some of Lopez' "La Selva" on yt. This is music how exactly? I would call it 'sound sculpture' perhaps but not music. It reminded me of sound installations I've visited in museums. None of them made any pretense at being music, however.


It has an emotional contour and direction. Often in modern music this narrative is more slow paced and subtle, but it's definitely quite present. It's not just a static sound sculpture... it's dynamic.

You know how in a classical/romantic instrumental work the recapitulation is like an afterglow after the storm of the development... and gives a feeling of stability but still with a tinge of uncertainty? Well... Lopez and other contemporary composers also have a narrative where the sounds in one section of their piece have an afterglow which affect your emotional reaction to the next section of their piece.

From listening to Peter Ablinger last month, we learned that in the world of contemporary music with electroacoustics and extended instrumental techniques... there's not always a clear demarcation between pitched and unpitched sounds. It's more of a continuum, given that all sound is a Fourier spectrum.

One great piece that blends the pitched and unpitched, all within the same string instruments, is Georg Haas's String Quartet 3 "In iij. Noct." (2001), seriously a masterpiece, and something for our generation to be proud of.


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## Chronochromie

SeptimalTritone said:


> It has an emotional contour and direction. Often in modern music this narrative is more slow paced and subtle, but it's definitely quite present. It's not just a static sound sculpture... it's dynamic.
> 
> You know how in a classical/romantic instrumental work the recapitulation is like an afterglow after the storm of the development... and gives a feeling of stability but still with a tinge of uncertainty? Well... Lopez and other contemporary composers also have a narrative where the sounds in one section of their piece have an afterglow which affect your emotional reaction to the next section of their piece.
> 
> From listening to Peter Ablinger last month, we learned that in the world of contemporary music with electroacoustics and extended instrumental techniques... there's not always a clear demarcation between pitched and unpitched sounds. It's more of a continuum, given that all sound is a Fourier spectrum.
> 
> One great piece that blends the pitched and unpitched, all within the same string instruments, is Georg Haas's String Quartet 3 "In iij. Noct." (2001), seriously a masterpiece, and something for our generation to be proud of.


This seems quite interesting, that lyrical section around 23:30 and the tension towards the end. I might listen to the whole thing. Sorry for derailing the thread but I found that more compelling than Lopez's stuff. As for Bartok, I can't add anything as I've heard little of his music (for now).


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## regenmusic

I always liked Bartok and glad you chose him as there must
be much, much more of his music which I haven't heard. I'm not
sure if it was just because he was an early choice for me in my life
that I liked him, as I haven't heard as much of his music in the last
20 years or so. It doesn't seem like he was that productive and I know
he didn't live to be that old, but older than many. 

I met Franscico Lopez as his circle of composers a friend of mine
created an important CD label for. I enjoyed the show but I don't think
too much of this style. Somewhat associated with what they call
lowercase sound, although Lopez would be more classified as a Field
Recording composer. It's just not "music" to me, but more like sound
art. The difference between textural paintings and someone like Burne
Jones.


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## regenmusic

I would love it if we could pick someone living or very recent who wasn't so controversial as the last two.
Lopez isn't getting much of a response. William Bolcom is a great living composer.


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## SimonNZ

regenmusic said:


> I would love it if we could pick someone living or very recent who wasn't so controversial as the last two.
> Lopez isn't getting much of a response. William Bolcom is a great living composer.


Lopez has the whole on January to get a response, and I at least intend to listen to more and maybe make a few more half-baked utterances.

Even though he's not someone I'd file under classical in my own collection I'm finding the recordings absolutely worth my while, and I'm looking forward to someone (some guy?) making the case that sure its classical, even if I remain unconvinced.


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## Albert7

Listening to this clip right now:






Quite a composer I must say.... even it sounds more than Reich.


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## regenmusic

What Lopez does is take many recordings of natural sounds, and mixes them together. Many, many others in the field recording composer group do this. I am wonder if Nigel Ayers did this first under the name of his band Nocturnal Emissions. That work was called Spiritflesh. I find it of a higher order, really beautlfic.


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## SilverSurfer

Many Lopez's compositions (usually, "Untitled") can be heard/purchased/downloades in Bandcamp:

https://bandcamp.com/search?q=francisco+lopez&from=corphome

And maybe this warning about one of the recordings describes his distinctive style:

"WARNING: Due to the extreme subtlety of these recordings, virtually all of the audio content is completely inaudible through laptop or equivalent small speakers. Quality speakers or headphones-as well as a very quiet surrounding environment-are highly recommended for ideal listening."


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## ptr

^^ This is absolutely true, good headphones is a splendid tool for listening to Lopez music!

/ptr


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## SilverSurfer

I'm afraid nowadays it's easier to find a good pair of headphones than a very quiet surrounding environment...


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## Guest

SilverSurfer said:


> Many Lopez's compositions (usually, "Untitled") can be heard/purchased/downloades in Bandcamp:
> 
> https://bandcamp.com/search?q=francisco+lopez&from=corphome
> 
> And maybe this warning about one of the recordings describes his distinctive style:
> 
> "WARNING: Due to the extreme subtlety of these recordings, virtually all of the audio content is completely inaudible through laptop or equivalent small speakers. Quality speakers or headphones-as well as a very quiet surrounding environment-are highly recommended for ideal listening."


Bandcamp is a really fine site for all sorts of new music.

As for Lopez' audibility, he also hands out blindfolds at concerts to help further concentrate one's hearing, and I have a blindfold that came with one of his CDs.

It's hard to know where to start with this guy, where to start talking about him, that is. He's done so much of such high quality, it's hard to say "Untitled 180," say, except as a very personal favorite from among so many fine things.

Along with Bandcamp, you can find most of his physical CDs at Discogs, which if you want a single place to find new music easily, that's the place. Also Soundcloud is a good download/streaming source. However, it's hard to find the right Francisco Lopez there. There's a lot, but it requires knowing ahead of time which Lopez is the right one. And spelling his name correctly--López--doesn't really help. Oh well.


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## violadude

Listened to La Selva by Lopez. I found it very intriguing. I am eager to listen to more. 

As for Bartok, he wrote probably the finest string quartet cycle since Beethoven, some of the finest piano concertos of the 20th century, one of the best violin concertos of the 20th century (the 2nd, I'm not as impressed with the 1st, personally), one of the most moving operas of the 20th century, and a ballet that is often considered one of the big three "primativist" ballets (The Miraculous Mandarin of course, the other two being the Rite of Spring and Ala i Lolli, known today exclusively from the suite version, Scythian Suite ). 

So ya...really solid composer there.


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## SilverSurfer

To some guy: Yeah, like seeking Tom Johnson...


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## Albert7

Don't forget the Bartok violin concerto. A masterpiece of 20th century composition easily. The Mutter recording is pretty definitive there.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Boulez does the greatest Bartók ever! So glad to see him as one of the two COTM this January. 

My favourite recording of the String Quartets by Bartók (some of my favourite string quartets ever) is the set recorded by the Hungarian String Quartet. I will listen to some Lopez tonight based on recommendations here.


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## Albert7

Trying very hard to listen to Lopez but my concentration isn't helping. I am going to try again later on this weekend when I have more time to examine his works.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Went looking around on Spotify for things by Lopez and this piece drew me in immediately...I really want to check out that 5cd set on Kairos soon.


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## Haydn man

violadude said:


> Listened to La Selva by Lopez. I found it very intriguing. I am eager to listen to more.


I think that nicely sums up my first impression


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## SilverSurfer

albertfallickwang said:


> Trying very hard to listen to Lopez but my concentration isn't helping. I am going to try again later on this weekend when I have more time to examine his works.


Maybe I'm not the only one surprised here, albert, because you seem the most concentrated man in the world! If not, I cannot understand how you manage to do so many things in 24 h (listening, watching, ripping, job interviews, tinychat, family...)!


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## SilverSurfer

Sorry, I forgot to add: ...and posting in TC at the same time!


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## Albert7

I promise to DJ some Lopez selections tonight at tinychat hopefully.


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## Haydn man

Listening to Buildings New York via Spotify
Like the other work I tried earlier this seems to be a sound painting rather what I would call music. What it does do is make me picture machinary in my minds eye. Currently an alarm bell is beeping softly that sounds just like our dishwasher


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## MoonlightSonata

I'm listening to Lopez for the first time... it's very interesting how all the textures keep changing, and the odd sounds are fascinating.


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## Haydn man

MoonlightSonata said:


> I'm listening to Lopez for the first time... it's very interesting how all the textures keep changing, and the odd sounds are fascinating.


I agree with your comments, but the question keeps popping into my mind, is this classical music?


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## Balthazar

Kicked off Bartók month with Krystian Zimerman playing his *Piano Concerto No. 1* with Chicago under Boulez. I love how the piano is used in such a variety of ways to such a broad range of effects - from percussive to rhythmic to quasi-lyrical.


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## elgar's ghost

This was my first Bartok purchase - and it still butters my parsnips.


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## Badinerie

There is never a month without Bartok in my humble abode, The Strings Percusion and Celeste is usually the Karajan BPO as posted on the current listening thread recently which is perfect in my eye, or ear rather!. I might spread all my Bartok lp's ect on the floor like I used to do as a kid ( When I had like twelve lp's total) turn my back flip a shuttlecock over my shoulder and play whatever it lands on next.

Later today I'll spotify Lopez and have a butchers.


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## Badinerie

Oo! Its Dorati and Concertgebouw Amsterdam Concerto for Orchestra cool! Straight after the Hindemith of course...


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## Albert7

Haydn man said:


> I agree with your comments, but the question keeps popping into my mind, is this classical music?


After listening to about 4-5 selections I just feel that it ain't.


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## Guest

Haydn man said:


> I agree with your comments, but the question keeps popping into my mind, is this classical music?


The question that keeps popping into my head is "Why do you keep asking this question?

López' music is good to listen to for its own sake. It's not serving any other purpose.

The label "classical music" is best applied, if it has to be applied at all, to music that serves the purpose of being music. That's possibly why, when the term was first coined, opera and songs were excluded.

I know that this is a classical music board and that the purpose of that is to segregate certain types of music so that classical fans aren't having to constantly deal with conversations about death metal or hip-hop, nice though those conversations may be. But the more recent any particular music is, given the nature of newness, the less it will seem at first to fit neatly into any category.

We can either accept that as an inevitable consequence of newness (my pick), or we can fight it.

I have to say, all the descriptions like "sound sculpture" or "sound painting" sound no more or less like descriptions of music than "tone poem" or "fantasy overture" do. Well, maybe that's not quite right. I think that the former actually sound _more_ descriptive of music than the latter.

López is not rock. It's not country. It's not hip-hop. It's not jazz.

It is music that people like myself who listen to Monteverdi and Purcell and Weber and Bizet and Saint-Saëns and Kodály and Lachenmann also listen to with the same regard. (I listen to King Crimson and Groundation and Primus, too, with great pleasure, but with a different regard.)

So far, everything that everyone has said about how López music sounds has been perfectly consistent with its being called classical music, at least in the sense of serious and artistic music.

Remember, every single piece of the Baroque era was written without the benefit of the term "Baroque," and probably* every single piece of the Classical era was written without the benefit of the term "Classical." (Which means, you'll have noticed, that every single piece of music from Hildegard von Bingen to Beethoven was written without the benefit of the term "Classical." So "dinna fash" is my advice.)

*The hedging here is purely a matter of chronology. "Baroque" as a term dates from the early twentieth century, long after the era it describes. "Classical" however, as a term, dates from 1810, which is still arguably inside the era that would be called "classical."


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## Haydn man

some guy
I think there is great sense in your comments, and that where we pigeon hole something is immaterial and in many regards quite arbitrary.
I also accept this is serious and thought provoking stuff and as such deserves to be heard and discussed.
It just seems strange to me that when I hear noises that my dishwasher also makes in the middle of piece by Lopez, it makes me stop and ask the question I did.
What I do know is I am miles out of my comfort zone with this stuff, but I don't mind about that. The reason I was happy to accept the original suggestion about 2 composers each month was to experience something new, so I ain't complaining.
12 months ago I joined TC and would not have expected that I would now be listening to, or making comments on Lopez or Ablinger, I might even by ready for Schoenberg soon.


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## D Smith

Speaking only for myself, I have certain expectations when I want to listen to music, whether it is classical, jazz, rock or whatever. What I have heard of Lopez' work does not meet those expectations. This is not to disparage the work, he seems to have put a lot of effort into it. But it gives me no pleasure nor does it register as 'music' to me, whereas Bach, Miles Davis, or Phillip Glass does. (And I am not a Glass fan at all). Just my two cents.


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## Albert7

some guy said:


> The question that keeps popping into my head is "Why do you keep asking this question?
> 
> López' music is good to listen to for its own sake. It's not serving any other purpose.
> 
> The label "classical music" is best applied, if it has to be applied at all, to music that serves the purpose of being music. That's possibly why, when the term was first coined, opera and songs were excluded.
> 
> I know that this is a classical music board and that the purpose of that is to segregate certain types of music so that classical fans aren't having to constantly deal with conversations about death metal or hip-hop, nice though those conversations may be. But the more recent any particular music is, given the nature of newness, the less it will seem at first to fit neatly into any category.
> 
> We can either accept that as an inevitable consequence of newness (my pick), or we can fight it.
> 
> I have to say, all the descriptions like "sound sculpture" or "sound painting" sound no more or less like descriptions of music than "tone poem" or "fantasy overture" do. Well, maybe that's not quite right. I think that the former actually sound _more_ descriptive of music than the latter.
> 
> López is not rock. It's not country. It's not hip-hop. It's not jazz.
> 
> It is music that people like myself who listen to Monteverdi and Purcell and Weber and Bizet and Saint-Saëns and Kodály and Lachenmann also listen to with the same regard. (I listen to King Crimson and Groundation and Primus, too, with great pleasure, but with a different regard.)
> 
> So far, everything that everyone has said about how López music sounds has been perfectly consistent with its being called classical music, at least in the sense of serious and artistic music.
> 
> Remember, every single piece of the Baroque era was written without the benefit of the term "Baroque," and probably* every single piece of the Classical era was written without the benefit of the term "Classical." (Which means, you'll have noticed, that every single piece of music from Hildegard von Bingen to Beethoven was written without the benefit of the term "Classical." So "dinna fash" is my advice.)
> 
> *The hedging here is purely a matter of chronology. "Baroque" as a term dates from the early twentieth century, long after the era it describes. "Classical" however, as a term, dates from 1810, which is still arguably inside the era that would be called "classical."


Thanks for the explanation. It helps me to understand better. I admit that I still think that it is closer to sound art and it is definitely very radical as classical music.


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## Albert7

What is odd is that Glenn Gould never played any Bartok at all and this would have been a super jolly time for Gould to superimpose his own views on Bartok's complex music.


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## tdc

I have really enjoyed the Lopez pieces I've listened to in this thread - thanks for posting them folks. Going by some of the work John Cage has done or some of the electroacoustic pieces of guys like Luc Ferrari, Lopez work does not strike me as very far removed from that aesthetic, so it seems to fit into contemporary classical music to my ears.


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## Balthazar

It's humpday for the Bartók piano concertos! Leif Ove Andsnes takes on No. 2 with Berlin under Boulez.


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## Albert7

I am getting more understanding of Lopez's approach to music. It's pretty innovative and I am warming up to his compositions . I think that I will procure some of works from Itunes which is awesome


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## Guest

Balthazar said:


> It's humpday for the Bartók piano concertos! Leif Ove Andsnes takes on No. 2 with Berlin under Boulez.
> 
> View attachment 60245


One of my favorite "concept" discs.

It could have been disastrous. And I almost didn't buy it, because I was pretty sure it would be.

But Helene Grimaud. I couldn't resist. And the idea worked perfectly, I think. At least these are my favorite performances of each of these pieces. I never saw that one coming at all.:lol:


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## Balthazar

some guy said:


> One of my favorite "concept" discs.


I agree. This has vaulted to the top of the list of "discs I should listen to more often."

Today, Hélène Grimaud completes the hat trick playing Piano Concerto No. 3 with London under Boulez.


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## Albert7

some guy said:


> One of my favorite "concept" discs.
> 
> It could have been disastrous. And I almost didn't buy it, because I was pretty sure it would be.
> 
> But Helene Grimaud. I couldn't resist. And the idea worked perfectly, I think. At least these are my favorite performances of each of these pieces. I never saw that one coming at all.:lol:


I need to get this album for sure. I'm a huge Grimaud supporter honestly .


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## Albert7

Two Bartok albums in and I'm pretty appreciative of his genius... can't wait to download my first Lopez album next week in iTunes .

Thanks to the peeps here for opening up my impressions.


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## Haydn man

I have chosen these 2 sets to begin exploring Bartok
Just listened to the Violin Concerto No1 from the Solti set and now intend to try the same from the Boulez set.
From initial impressions both sets seem well recorded and great as introductions to the symphonic works so will take a little time to explore and compare them


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## Albert7

Haydn man said:


> View attachment 60319
> View attachment 60320
> 
> I have chosen these 2 sets to begin exploring Bartok
> Just listened to the Violin Concerto No1 from the Solti set and now intend to try the same from the Boulez set.
> From initial impressions both sets seem well recorded and great as introductions to the symphonic works so will take a little time to explore and compare them


Indeed both of those sets look fabulous. I plan to procure those later on this month.


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## SimonNZ

from current listening:



SimonNZ said:


> Francisco Lopez - Untitled 175
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sort of a country garden version of the rain forest soundscape "La Selva". Curiously they both share one specific detail in common. which makes me wonder if Lopez isn't adding a subtle touch of humour: a buzzing bee circling _lands on the microphone_ then takes off from it and buzzes around again.
> 
> Unidentifiable happenings in the background - are they natural or man-made? I've listened to a few other shorter Lopez pieces in conjunction with this and have noticed the recurring theme in some of whether its natural or not, or whether its natural or manipulated to sound not, or vice versa - or examples of the two overlayed seemlessly.


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## Albert7

SimonNZ said:


> from current listening:


Listened to your clip and really enjoyed it quite a bit  very natural sounding LOL.


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## Albert7

Anyone know much about this Lopez recording: http://www.amazon.com/L%C3%B3pez-Through-Looking-Glass-Francisco/dp/B0026IZ68K/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1420553544&sr=1-1&keywords=francisco+lopez

Looks like a good compilation...


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## Balthazar

Enjoyed Bartók's _Bluebeard's Castle_ today with Jessye Norman and László Polgár accompanied by Chicago under Boulez.


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## Haydn man

Untitled #218 from this set
This is a shorter piece than the othersi have tried with a different ambience.
The machine like throb is accompanied by more muffled background sounds, it reminds me of the soundtrack of the game Riven from years ago


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## Albert7

Haydn man said:


> View attachment 60406
> 
> Untitled #218 from this set
> This is a shorter piece than the othersi have tried with a different ambience.
> The machine like throb is accompanied by more muffled background sounds, it reminds me of the soundtrack of the game Riven from years ago


I really need to check out that 4 discer box set .


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## Guest

albertfallickwang said:


> Anyone know much about this Lopez recording: http://www.amazon.com/L%C3%B3pez-Through-Looking-Glass-Francisco/dp/B0026IZ68K/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1420553544&sr=1-1&keywords=francisco+lopez
> 
> Looks like a good compilation...


This is a wonderful compilation. There are pieces on here, as I have mentioned elsewhere, that had been out of print for several years. But that's as may be. This is an excellent collection, as one would naturally expect of Kairos, and thus an excellent introduction to the music of Francisco López.

BUT.

It is only an introduction.


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## Albert7

some guy said:


> This is a wonderful compilation. There are pieces on here, as I have mentioned elsewhere, that had been out of print for several years. But that's as may be. This is an excellent collection, as one would naturally expect of Kairos, and thus an excellent introduction to the music of Francisco López.
> 
> BUT.
> 
> It is only an introduction.


Thanks for the recommendation. Today more Bartok on the listening pile as I encode more CD's.


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## Haydn man

some guy said:


> This is a wonderful compilation. There are pieces on here, as I have mentioned elsewhere, that had been out of print for several years. But that's as may be. This is an excellent collection, as one would naturally expect of Kairos, and thus an excellent introduction to the music of Francisco López.
> 
> BUT.
> 
> It is only an introduction.


I shall continue to explore these discs in the next few days, work permitting and shall post my thoughts


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## Albert7

I am really relishing the variety of Bartok's works ranging from traditional folk-like tunes to the complex harmonics of his avant garde works.... quite underrated in his genius I must say.


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## ahammel

I love the cover of the Boulez set. He's all "why yes I did conduct all this Bartók! How kind of you to notice."

I gave the sonata for two pianos and percussion a don again (Perahia/Solti/Glennie/Corkhill). It's still great.


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## Haydn man

albertfallickwang said:


> Anyone know much about this Lopez recording: http://www.amazon.com/L%C3%B3pez-Through-Looking-Glass-Francisco/dp/B0026IZ68K/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1420553544&sr=1-1&keywords=francisco+lopez
> 
> Looks like a good compilation...


This is the set I found on Spotify and am working my way through as time allows
I will try and post some more updates as I go


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## Haydn man

I continued listening to this set, today Qal'at Abd'al- Salam. 6 pieces again a mixture of recordings of both natural and mechanical sounds with sampling techniques, each piece shorter than some of the other works in this set, but with similar themes.
I am gradually becoming more accustomed to Lopez with each work I listen.


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## Albert7

Haydn man said:


> View attachment 60806
> 
> I continued listening to this set, today Qal'at Abd'al- Salam. 6 pieces again a mixture of recordings of both natural and mechanical sounds with sampling techniques, each piece shorter than some of the other works in this set, but with similar themes.
> I am gradually becoming more accustomed to Lopez with each work I listen.


Me too. I think that Lopez is quite an underrated master of his craft. I have been working slowly through Bartok as well and I have a complete box set played by Kocsis that I have to deal with .


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## Guest

I am looking into Lopez now. I will report back after I've had a bit of time with the guy. 

Who are the next month's composers, btw? I'm mostly intrigued by the living composer side - not that I don't love Schubert and Bartok, but it's every day we discuss recordings of the big guns, but not every month we discuss people like Ablinger and Lopez.


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## Albert7

arcaneholocaust said:


> I am looking into Lopez now. I will report back after I've had a bit of time with the guy.
> 
> Who are the next month's composers, btw? I'm mostly intrigued by the living composer side - not that I don't love Schubert and Bartok, but it's every day we discuss recordings of the big guns, but not every month we discuss people like Ablinger and Lopez.


Honestly I am hoping that we do Rameau soon  I'm getting impatient for some Baroque exploration.


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## science

I just bought the Lopez box on Kairos, so given international shipping... I should hear it in March....

As for Bartók, my favorite recordings include:

View attachment 60893


I'm surprised that one hasn't been mentioned more often in this thread. I thought it was everyone's favorite Bartók recording....

View attachment 60894


That box consists of 7 previous releases recorded mostly from 1992-2001. I haven't listened to it very many times, but I'm including it here anyway because I think anyone interested in exploring Bartók would want to consider this one.

View attachment 60895


Bartók's 2nd violin concerto is much loved. There is a recording by Mutter that I love as much as this one, but I'm putting this one up because talkclassical people introduced me to it and the pairings are probably a bit less familiar to most of us.

View attachment 60896


The Miraculous Mandarin is a fascinating work... and I'm just talking about the music, though the ballet is interesting too. Boulez seems like the right man to conduct it, though the only other recording I've heard (by Dorati) pleases me just as much.

View attachment 60897


I'm going to put this one in instead of the Takacs recording of the string quartets, because the quartets have already gotten plenty of attention in this thread. I don't think I'm the first one to mention _Duke Bluebeard's Castle_ but I want to endorse this Fischer-Dieskau, Töpper, Fricsay recording.


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## science

some guy said:


> This is a wonderful compilation. There are pieces on here, as I have mentioned elsewhere, that had been out of print for several years. But that's as may be. This is an excellent collection, as one would naturally expect of Kairos, and thus an excellent introduction to the music of Francisco López.
> 
> BUT.
> 
> It is only an introduction.


Is there any other recording you'd consider a better introduction?


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## tdc

albertfallickwang said:


> Francisco Lopez looks to be rather interesting sound artist. I admit that I know nothing of his works. He is so obscure that like Ablinger my public library doesn't even have a recording or DVD for him whatsoever. So relegated to YouTube again.


I'm listening to this excellent work again, I really love the different sound worlds he traverses here. This music puts me into an interesting state of mind...it feels so spatially open or something, hard to describe!

"_The work has been conceived to be staged in complete darkness in a surrounding immersive sonic field around the audience_."

Now _that_ would be quite an experience I'm sure.


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## Guest

So last night, I listened to Lopez for the first time. Specifically, "La Selva" and "Wind (Patagonia)". 

Wow. I've heard field recordings on occasion, but never with half of this depth. First of all, they are about as "visual" as music is going to get. When someguy mentioned Lopez's blindfold thing for his concerts, I thought it sounded cool, but possibly a bit pretentious too. But, wow. This music absolutely engulfs your sense of both time and space. I assume that Lopez has carefully edited a plethora of recordings together for these sorts of works, because "La Selva" appears to take you through day and night in the rain-forest in the space of an hour, while "Wind" establishes scenery around you with the rustling of various nearby objects as well as the far away swirling vortex. What I'm trying to say, essentially, is that Lopez's construction of these pieces paint such vivid imagery of their environment that an attentive listener is sure to become enraptured.


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## Guest

science said:


> Is there any other recording you'd consider a better introduction?


No.

What I like about this as an introduction is that it's a box set, with several different pieces, so you get a good sense of López' range.

'Course, he's still composing like crazy sauce, so he's already gone places where none of these pieces go. But that would be (could be/should be) true for any living composer.


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## Haydn man

arcaneholocaust said:


> I am looking into Lopez now. I will report back after I've had a bit of time with the guy.
> 
> Who are the next month's composers, btw? I'm mostly intrigued by the living composer side - not that I don't love Schubert and Bartok, but it's every day we discuss recordings of the big guns, but not every month we discuss people like Ablinger and Lopez.


I am afraid that the list of composers is a closely guarded secret and if I told you I would then have to kill you.
Alternatively if you look back for the original thread I started suggesting composers of the month there is a list I compiled in one of the last posts. I plan to just work down the lists one each per month. I might just mix the order slightly if both choices in one month were rather obscure which I guess is possible but unlikely


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## Haydn man

science said:


> I just bought the Lopez box on Kairos, so given international shipping... I should hear it in March....
> 
> As for Bartók, my favorite recordings include:
> 
> View attachment 60893
> 
> 
> I'm surprised that one hasn't been mentioned more often in this thread. I thought it was everyone's favorite Bartók recording....
> 
> View attachment 60894
> 
> 
> That box consists of 7 previous releases recorded mostly from 1992-2001. I haven't listened to it very many times, but I'm including it here anyway because I think anyone interested in exploring Bartók would want to consider this one.
> 
> View attachment 60895
> 
> 
> Bartók's 2nd violin concerto is much loved. There is a recording by Mutter that I love as much as this one, but I'm putting this one up because talkclassical people introduced me to it and the pairings are probably a bit less familiar to most of us.
> 
> View attachment 60896
> 
> 
> The Miraculous Mandarin is a fascinating work... and I'm just talking about the music, though the ballet is interesting too. Boulez seems like the right man to conduct it, though the only other recording I've heard (by Dorati) pleases me just as much.
> 
> View attachment 60897
> 
> 
> I'm going to put this one in instead of the Takacs recording of the string quartets, because the quartets have already gotten plenty of attention in this thread. I don't think I'm the first one to mention _Duke Bluebeard's Castle_ but I want to endorse this Fischer-Dieskau, Töpper, Fricsay recording.


Thanks for these recommendations. I have been working my way through Boulez and Solti sets of the orchestral works, with Boulez shading it for me. I will try some of the above in particular the Violin Concerotos via Spotify


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## Albert7

arcaneholocaust said:


> So last night, I listened to Lopez for the first time. Specifically, "La Selva" and "Wind (Patagonia)".
> 
> Wow. I've heard field recordings on occasion, but never with half of this depth. First of all, they are about as "visual" as music is going to get. When someguy mentioned Lopez's blindfold thing for his concerts, I thought it sounded cool, but possibly a bit pretentious too. But, wow. This music absolutely engulfs your sense of both time and space. I assume that Lopez has carefully edited a plethora of recordings together for these sorts of works, because "La Selva" appears to take you through day and night in the rain-forest in the space of an hour, while "Wind" establishes scenery around you with the rustling of various nearby objects as well as the far away swirling vortex. What I'm trying to say, essentially, is that Lopez's construction of these pieces paint such vivid imagery of their environment that an attentive listener is sure to become enraptured.


Amen you said what I was exactly thinking... Lopez could be a Romantic composer if he is considered such; his views on nature are so poetic and very accurate. Ligeti-like scientific approach too.


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## Haydn man

I am interested in people's reactions to Lopez, and the idea of becoming engulfed in the image it creates.
When I listened to Buildings New York from the set, I felt at times as though I was inside the bowels of the building listening to the mechanical sounds. Yet with the La Selva, whilst it is certainly evocative of the rain forest it felt more like watching rather than being there.
Using this mix of sounds to create another world is quite intriguing.


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## Albert7

Today I was astonished that a huge dose of Bartok caused me to feel depressed which is unusual. I never typically have such an emotional reaction to this before like that. And we are talking about the solo piano works.

I think that Microcosmos I would like to explore more.


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## SeptimalTritone

My 5-disc Francisco Lopez box set just arrived. Yay! Now I can join the fun.

I'm listening to the fourth disk... and I'm enjoying the multidimensionality as well.


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## Haydn man

Spent quite a lot of time on Bartok's orchestral works but want to spend more time on the chamber works now







I have been very impressed by the playing and recording, and the string quartets themselves have been a real pleasure.
Next I am going to try some more chamber works and in particular looking forward to Perahia's performance as I never really would have associated him with Bartok


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## Albert7

After my current Mahler binge, I will be returning back to Bartok and Lopez at the close of the end of this month.


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## Haydn man

Listened to the Faust disc of violin works, what an interesting mix!
I was particularly engaged by the Rhapsodies for Violin and Piano and the Folkdances.
The recording is good and Faust plays beautifully, the obvious folk themes are there as you would expect.
I am now realising why Bartok has the reputation as one of the great composers of the last centuary as I listen to the range of his works.


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## tortkis

López's works sound very artificial to me, but I don't mean it negatively. It's like architectural structure designed with a great precision. Whatever the sound materials it uses (electronic, construction, water, industrial plant, rain forrest, something unknown), there is always a feel of manipulation and precise control. Does he use recorded field sounds, or everything is electronically fabricated? Even when unusual noise is used, it sounds very sophisticated.


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## tortkis

To me, Bartók is one of the most avant-garde composers, even compared with Darmstadt School composers or anyone else. I have Hagen Quartet's set for a long time, but I still don't understand what is going on. Every time I listen to it, it sounds fresh and edgy.


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## tdc

tortkis said:


> López's works sound very artificial to me, but I don't mean it negatively. It's like architectural structure designed with a great precision. Whatever the sound materials it uses (electronic, construction, water, industrial plant, rain forrest, something unknown), there is always a feel of manipulation and precise control. Does he use recorded field sounds, or everything is electronically fabricated? Even when unusual noise is used, it sounds very sophisticated.


Well said, but I'm not sure I agree he always sounds highly "artificial", try out _La Selva_ if you haven't yet, the work sounds quite fresh and organic I think - you can tell the sounds have been manipulated somewhat - but just enough for maximum effect. When I heard the work I thought_ here is a composer that knows how to create but also when to step back and let the magic happen_ - I think that is a great artistic trait.


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## tortkis

tdc said:


> Well said, but I'm not sure I agree he always sounds highly "artificial", try out _La Selva_ if you haven't yet, the work sounds quite fresh and organic I think - you can tell the sounds have been manipulated somewhat - but just enough for maximum effect. When I heard the work I thought_ here is a composer that knows how to create but also when to step back and let the magic happen_ - I think that is a great artistic trait.


Yes, actually that was my impression after listening to the Kairos set and _La Selva_. I expected something wild and raw, and it indeed uses a lot of concrete sounds of rain forest, but still it feels very refined and elaborated. This Haydn man's comment is close to what I felt.



Haydn man said:


> Yet with the La Selva, whilst it is certainly evocative of the rain forest it felt more like watching rather than being there.


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## Guest

Well, if every single piece of the entire body of music referred to as "classical music" is artificial, then fine. Otherwise....:scold:

It's an interesting distinction, though, between watching and being there. I suppose something could be said for either, though usually art has been seen as thing to do with mediation. And "artificial" did used to be synonymous with "artistic."

More important is that expectation of something wild and raw. Wild and raw are all well and good. I like them myself. Expectations, however. I think what you maybe have learned is that expectations are the very devil. Try not to have them would be my advice!


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## Haydn man

One of the interesting things for me listening to Ablinger and now Lopez, has been dealing with notion that this is music but not as I readily recognise it.
My comfort zone and I parted company and the poor thing has never been seen again. But I have discovered that it does not matter because nothing bad is going to happen, I just need to alter my mind set when listening.
I think initially I was trying too hard to listen to what the hell was going on rather than let myself react to what I was hearing and see what mental pictures it generated.
It is also helping me to take this approach with the more modern Bartok works.

Well there you are TC broadens the mind. You read it first here


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## tortkis

some guy said:


> Well, if every single piece of the entire body of music referred to as "classical music" is artificial, then fine. Otherwise....:scold:
> 
> It's an interesting distinction, though, between watching and being there. I suppose something could be said for either, though usually art has been seen as thing to do with mediation. And "artificial" did used to be synonymous with "artistic."
> 
> More important is that expectation of something wild and raw. Wild and raw are all well and good. I like them myself. Expectations, however. I think what you maybe have learned is that expectations are the very devil. Try not to have them would be my advice!


Probably "artificial" was an inappropriate word. I meant well-crafted man-made thing. Not negative meaning.

It's inevitable to expect something after reading about the piece of music, the album cover art, the description ("Sound Environments from a Neotropical Rain Forest"). Or, maybe I should have said I just imagined how it would sound like. And, I don't understand why expectations are devil. I expect, it turns out to be different, and I enjoy it. If there are no expectations, there would be no joyful surprise.


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## Guest

tortkis said:


> I expect, it turns out to be different, and I enjoy it. If there are no expectations, there would be no joyful surprise.


Ah, well OK then.

The "joyful surprise" part was not coming through in the post I was responding to.

But yeah. No argument here, anyway.


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## Albert7

Still need to pick up the Boulez and Solti Bartok box sets before the month is up.


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## tortkis

Today I listened to three López albums: _Untitled #244_, _Untitled #274_, _In De Blaauwe Hand_. Usually his work consists of (apparently) concrete sounds, electronic sounds, and (nearly complete) silence. I can only say that I liked the sounds, especially _In De Blaauwe Hand_ and the last part of #244. I feel that they are very carefully composed, but I cannot tell how.


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## science

some guy said:


> The "joyful surprise" part was not coming through in the post I was responding to.


So he had to be punished.

Well, anyway, I have personal good news. I got the Lopez disks in time to participate! I hope to listen to them this week.


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## Albert7

Great debate about Bartok on tonight's tinychat discussion.

Just how modernist is Bartok? Just how neo-romantic is Bartok? (And he wasn't atonal...)


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## Haydn man

Listening again to some Lopez 
'The dream of the coffee man' which was really unusual but kept giving me feelings of something I had heard before. Then it came to me, I was waiting for a guitar riff to start a la Pink Floyd. There are definate echos for me of albums like Dark Side of the Moon when I listen to several Lopez pieces, the untitled tracks being other good examples.
Could have been an interesting collaboration here if they had ever got together


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## Haydn man

albertfallickwang said:


> Great debate about Bartok on tonight's tinychat discussion.
> 
> Just how modernist is Bartok? Just how neo-romantic is Bartok? (And he wasn't atonal...)


We're any conclusions reached?
I would be interested to hear


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

science said:


> So he had to be punished.
> 
> Well, anyway, I have personal good news. I got the Lopez disks in time to participate! I hope to listen to them this week.


Tell us what you think!


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## Haydn man

Thought I would post a short summary of my months listening to Bartok and Lopez as neither were familiar to me, especially Lopez
Highlights have been the Boulez set of orchestral works.







This has been a great introduction and I prefer this to the Solti set overall. The Violin Concerto 2 and Concerto for Orchestra are my current favourites. This is a set I shall definately return to.
The other Bartok I really enjoyed was the string quartets set







Wonderful playing and recording, I think it was first recommended by Albert and I can see why

My listening to Lopez was largely this set via Spotify








I found this set a continuing challenge, as it did not have the same reference points in my head for me to see it as music, that was until I stopped trying so hard and just listened.
I then realised it was generating images in my mind and some of the untitled works had echos of things like Pink Floyd in there.
It is stil not something I would turn to as readily as most other music but it opened my eyes to new possibilities in composition and use of sound.

Well, not particulaly profound comments, but a fun month and I look forward to February


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## Albert7

Haydn man said:


> We're any conclusions reached?
> I would be interested to hear


Inconclusive... sadly enough someone kept attacking Boulez for making Bartok more modernist than what he really was. I still avow that Bartok is a bridge between modernism and neo-romantic folk music.


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## Albert7

This month was disappointing. I only got to listen to six discs of Bartok and a few pieces of Lopez . I didn't even get a chance to get the Solti or Boulez Bartok box sets yet (probably next month or so).

I don't know why Bartok listening made me depressed but next month will be better hopefully. Lopez was hard at first but I appreciated him greater now 

Next month will be better but personal problems kept me from focusing as much as I should. Should I blame listening to Pollini's Beethoven as a side track too?


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## Guest

I blame Canada.

And hey, where I am, it's the first of February already. Where's the new thread????


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## Albert7

some guy said:


> I blame Canada.
> 
> And hey, where I am, it's the first of February already. Where's the new thread????


I am impatient too! LOL


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## Guest

I've been so focused on the contemporary side that I nearly forgot that Bartok was the dead guy on the list!

And incidentally I'm dealing with the "B" section of my library in my current project, the daunting "listen-to-everything" project. So this week I've actually been listening here and there to the Kocsis compilation (Along with a good bit of Benny Britten...). For the most part, this side of Bartok is quite a bit more unknown to me compared to the orchestral works or chamber works. I'm enjoying it quite a bit, and I smile a little when I hear a piece come on that is pretty much a piano version of one of the delightful little dances in the "44 Duos".

NP: Mikrokosmos Book II


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## science

Well, I got one of the López disks in just in time. Obviously I would have to listen to it a dozen more times before I could begin to offer a serious opinion, but it was nice. Maybe even too nice. But it was just the first disk and I'll listen to the rest, all of them multiple times, before taking any of my impressions at all seriously.


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## Albert7

One more hour to go before next COTM


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## tdc

science said:


> Well, I got one of the López disks in just in time. Obviously I would have to listen to it a dozen more times before I could begin to offer a serious opinion, but it was nice. Maybe even too nice. But it was just the first disk and I'll listen to the rest, all of them multiple times, before taking any of my impressions at all seriously.


I really like the nice stuff of his that I've heard. He can be a little more abrasive at times too - _Köllt_ for example uses elements of death metal.


----------

