# What is it about pop music artists...



## Guest (Nov 12, 2014)

...that leave them typically with so little to say?

*Let me explain. I love popular music from rock to metal to electronica to industrial, etc. This thread is not meant to bash popular music artists.*

On the contrary, I am specifically only referring to an artist's entire output with this post. Two things seem to be typical:

1) Material, _whether originally brilliant or not_, is often completely rehashed.

2) Artists give up on creativity entirely and, if they choose to remain in the music business, devote their time only to touring.

Disagree? Ok. But have you looked at the numbers? The majority of "great" classical composers compose a broad array of works throughout a career that spans a lifetime. On the other hand, the vast majority of popular music artists that we acclaim today, regardless of their quality, only generate a decade or less of "acclaimed material" before going stagnant or retiring, and this "acclaimed material" can typically fit on fewer discs than even the complete works of Anton Webern.

Examples include Led Zeppelin (6 generally highly acclaimed albums, span of ~7 years, including <6 hours of music), Pink Floyd (the "relevant" portion of their career spans ~12 years), The Beatles (the most viral and influential force in pop music's history lasted ~8 years and can fit cozily on the discs required for "The Alban Berg Collection"?), and more.

*NOTE: *Quotation marks were used liberally given the relatively subjective nature of this discussion, as, once again, I am not intending to bash, but merely to question and discuss. And yes, I am aware of the many outliers on both sides (that do not disprove a general correlation).

Is it drug use and suicide rates? Does popular music come with an inherent relative dearth in creativity?

I apologize if this thread comes sickeningly close to other threads of late, *pure and simple*, if you get my drift. _I'm not saying that Schoenberg murdered these chaps and their dreams._


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

My theory is that rock music revolves around youthful rebellion. Just about all the rock groups I listened to as a teenager and young adult "lost it" when they lost their youth.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

One word answer: _Zeitgeist_


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## Guest (Nov 12, 2014)

Bulldog said:


> My theory is that rock music revolves around youthful rebellion. Just about all the rock groups I listened to as a teenager and young adult "lost it" when they lost their youth.


A fair point in that field, yes. But the differences in relative output exist too within fairly unrelated fields, such as popular electronic music (for instance, Kraftwerk may have some neat songs here and there after Computer World, but it was a pretty tiny batch of music that made them revolutionary). So I'm not sure.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

More pressure to either stay the same over time or simply adapt to current trends, fewer non-superficial ways of altering one's model or developing songwriting craft, and so forth.

With jazz artists, it seems like there's more of an expectation that a player's style can be adapted to work with others, and that players will develop their style in new directions over time, but my sense is that fans of pop/rock often want (or think they want) more of the same or at least something similar.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

On the whole I agree. I think the term you used - 'broad array' - probably sums it up, as so many pop/rock artists tend to stick within a chosen narrow-ish template which usually ushers in the law of diminishing returns. On the other hand, when pop/rock artists try to evolve it usually ends up with decidedly mixed results ranging from an inspired change of tack to complete over-reach. 

As you say, there are the odd exceptions to the rule where the quality control never seems to diminish - for me, King Crimson are the prime example of a group who have managed to stay fresh by virtue of never settling in one musical place for too long, which probably says more about Robert Fripp's single-mindedness and his knack for bringing in great musicians who are tailored to the musical vision that he has at any particular time.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Well there are exceptions and I'd suggest you are making some bands outputs look less than they actually are for example you seem to not consider Led Zeppelin's last two albums as even worthy to be counted among their other releases, yet they were in fact still evolving their sound a lot on those last two albums and releasing some very good material - you claim Pink Floyd was only "relevant" for 12 years, this seems like kind of an arbitrary number based on your own tastes, all though they have really slowed their releases to a crawl of late I would suggest Pink Floyd is still relevant today (they just released a new album). You might argue that the quality is better on some works than others but the same is true of classical composers.

I could point to a lot of artists in pop and rock that have been quite prolific look at David Bowie and Frank Zappa. Mike Patton has collaborated on 26 albums to date and is still going strong.

I think because pop music is expected to fall into certain structures - that is precisely its challenge, try writing an effective pop song that doesn't sound like uninspired rehash - not as easy as it might seem.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

A big problem is that there is so much "corruption" in the pop music industry in terms of selling image, selling sexuality and shock value and purposely marketing a lot of acts to very young kids. You have a lot of low talent acts blowing up and one hit wonders, and today more than ever you have a lot of talented artists dropped from labels when it is thought they no longer have a marketable image. There are a lot of shallow and questionable things going on in the industry, and a lot of low quality music. It is largely a result of capitalism and greed, but I think it is important to acknowledge these factors and not paint all artists with the same brush.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I'm not saying you don't bring up some valid points arcane because you do. I think the state of pop music today is a reflection of a sick culture. If our culture encouraged and nourished creativity, independent thought and the arts, it would be more apparent in the music that is popular today. I think what is popular is a reflection of our society.


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

Well you're in your little room / and you're working on something good / but if it's really good / you're gonna need a bigger room / and when you're in the bigger room / you might not know what to do / you might have to think of / how you got started in your little room / da da da


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Plenty odd comments and comparisons from the OP. Why would you compare the Beatles output to Berg? Who cares, anyway? 

Varese's output fits on two CDs, yet he was a great composer, so what's your point?

If you really think about it, there was an amazing amount of creativity in the pop/rock world for several decades. Who in the classical world has written dozens of great songs in the past four decades?


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

I think it's because every more or less popular pop music artist is a _brand_. He puts out music of a certain style that has a certain sound, people get hooked, and the name of the artist becomes a brand under which his music is marketed. From then on people expect to hear only a certain kind of music from this artist. I don't think Madonna's managers would allow her to record a death metal CD even if she wanted to, or Manowar's managers would allow the guys to record a country music album, because it simply would not sell. The creativity is thus limited by commercial interests.


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## SimonNZ (Jul 12, 2012)

How many classical composers have the burden of writing and being accountable for their own lyrics, and lyrics that are supposed to offer some tiny new bit of personal wisdom each time, instead of letting that be the job of the poets, the librettist or the scripture. 

What's surprising under that expectation is that an artist of the singer/songwriter variety has as many as a half dozen albums in them before they fall back on repeating themselves.


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## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

I think people are just more inclined to give classical composers a pass due to a certain base level of sophistication found in their music, so the composers keep composing and composing - and it's not like they can retire with their big bucks the way that pop hit artists can.

My personal opinion is that classical composers do compose too much, and don't put enough time & effort into making every piece fascinating and unique. I think the problem is, who wants to struggle for a year to compose a hundred or two hundred bars of music? And somebody needs to pay the rent.


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## drvLock (Apr 2, 2014)

arcaneholocaust said:


> ...that leave them typically with so little to say?
> 
> *Let me explain. I love popular music from rock to metal to electronica to industrial, etc. This thread is not meant to bash popular music artists.*
> 
> ...


I disagree when you say that "Metal" and "industrial" are pop. When you see a list with the most sold records, you get Metallica ranked somewhere between 10th-20th and nothing more. Just to make it clear, I'm talking about METAL and not ROCK.

Anyways, pop (as we know today) has turned into a horror show. We have thousands of artists that have nothing to say, but do it nevertheless. and I believe it's not them as individuals: it's the recording companies behind them. Or do you think that Taylor Swift took her songs aways from Spotify because SHE wanted? No, man. The probability of that being done by her label is much more what's really happened. and, of course, her label have to protect their brand, so intead of taking it off themselves, they used her as a scapegoat.

Money. That's the work in the music industry right now. You want it? Do what you're said to do. Don't question.


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2014)

starthrower said:


> Plenty odd comments and comparisons from the OP. Why would you compare the Beatles output to Berg? Who cares, anyway?
> 
> Varese's output fits on two CDs, yet he was a great composer, so what's your point?
> 
> If you really think about it, there was an amazing amount of creativity in the pop/rock world for several decades. Who in the classical world has written dozens of great songs in the past four decades?


I "compared" The Beatles to Berg because their catalogues are close to one another in length even though The Beatles are, well, The Beatles, and Berg is considered by classical standards to have a fairly small oeuvre.

Varese is an outlier. King Crimson and Swans are outliers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlier Outliers do not disprove correlations. This actually seems to be a particularly difficult truth for members of this forum (thinking back about other posts).

I can't think of a single popular music artist who has written as much outstanding material as the greatest classical composers of the last four decades, actually. Above, I named King Crimson and Swans, who have, by pop music standards, outstanding and fruitful careers. And yet, I'm quite sure neither of these bands have enough "acclaimed material" to even fill as many discs as the LICHT cycle.

I'll say it once again because it seems to be an overlooked truth: outliers do not disprove correlations.



> How many classical composers have the burden of writing and being accountable for their own lyrics, and lyrics that are supposed to offer some tiny new bit of personal wisdom each time, instead of letting that be the job of the poets, the librettist or the scripture.
> 
> What's surprising under that expectation is that an artist of the singer/songwriter variety has as many as a half dozen albums in them before they fall back on repeating themselves.


Now this is an interesting point that I must admit I had not thought of. Admittedly, it makes guys like Neil Young look pretty outstanding. I would still say, however, given the fact that most singer/songwriter songs could have their chords and all scribbled down within 5 minutes, these kids certainly have enough time to think up some lyrics or find another job


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## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

SiegendesLicht said:


> I think it's because every more or less popular pop music artist is a _brand_. He puts out music of a certain style that has a certain sound, people get hooked, and the name of the artist becomes a brand under which his music is marketed. From then on people expect to hear only a certain kind of music from this artist. I don't think Madonna's managers would allow her to record a death metal CD even if she wanted to, or Manowar's managers would allow the guys to record a country music album, because it simply would not sell. The creativity is thus limited by commercial interests.


i don't get this? once i start my band and eventually get a manager i will record whatever i want


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## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

i am no fan of rap by any means but lyrics are the main focus in that genre, i just wish people knew how to disregard the ******** and listen to the ones that think about what they're writing.


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2014)

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> i don't get this? once i start my band and eventually get a manager i will record whatever i want


He's pretty correct, tbh. Most complete genre-flips that I can think of are viewed as utter failures. I'm not talking about a death metal band adding some acoustic guitars. I think we're talking more like, say, Morgoth deciding to do an alt rock album, or Celtic Frost deciding to do a glam metal album.


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## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

arcaneholocaust said:


> He's pretty correct, tbh. Most complete genre-flips that I can think of are viewed as utter failures. I'm not talking about a death metal band adding some acoustic guitars. I think we're talking more like, say, Morgoth deciding to do an alt rock album, or Celtic Frost deciding to do a glam metal album.


oh. lol those examples are scary. So like a classical composer all of a sudden making electronic music? lol


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2014)

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> oh. lol those examples are scary. So like a classical composer all of a sudden making electronic music? lol


They are real examples, if you didn't know  (Celtic Frost's _Cold Lake_ and Morgoth's IDon'tRememberButItWasAnAltRockAlbum). And frequently some of the lowest rated albums in the area.


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## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

The first few albums of a band's career often feature songs written and perfected over a longtime amidst dire personal conditions in relative poverty; once they become successful, they write new songs in a brief time-span while living a life of comparative luxury.

Twisted Sister is a good example: their first album came out after over a decade of playing in clubs, while their front-man was literally cleaning toilets. It was released on a minor label from England (while the band was American), and parts were literally recorded in a shed in the pastoral countryside. The production was awful, and the playing rarely perfect -- but it is by far their best work. Who is surprised? They had been playing the title track for _years_ before they recorded it! What happened when they became succesful? --

"To me, that was the big challenge: to stay mad while I had proven everything that I had set out to prove. I remember clear as a bell, sitting in a million dollar house, pool-side, two boats, five cars, in the sun, trying to write the next angry teen song."​
He didn't succeed.


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## Musicforawhile (Oct 10, 2014)

James Taylor is still going strong. I think Prince still makes music too. They aren't in the limelight though. Maybe the creative need runs deeper for a classical composer but for pop/rock stars the creative desire could be overtaken by new events in their life like having a family - just an idea, I know it's a bit unfair. Maybe they don't have so much angst when they find they've become a millionaire living a cozy life and they feel they would be a fraud to write angst driven songs. And happy songs are kind of boring, so maybe they find they have nothing more to say with music..

I see Cheyenne wrote basically same thing.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

I don't claim that pop musicians generally possess the same level of genius as Classical composers, but I'm OK with that. One of the thing I like about pop is it works for those who have only a little to say. Maybe some garage band has only one good album's worth of ideas. So be it. You listen to it, and move on to someone else. That doesn't remove the pleasure you received.

I think High Art in general suffers for all the emphasis on genius and timeless greatness.


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## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

i love album artwork


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## Guest (Nov 16, 2014)

arcaneholocaust said:


> I'll say it once again because it seems to be an overlooked truth: outliers do not disprove correlations.


True. But isn't it the outliers that are most often referenced? Isn't Beethoven an outlier?


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

MacLeod said:


> True. But isn't it the outliers that are most often referenced? Isn't Beethoven an outlier?


That is true, and there are examples of classical composers who had a single hit or two and never made much of a career out of it. Humperdinck and Mascagni are primarily known today for a single opera each.


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## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

so... I've been going through some forums lately about pop genres and people trying to compare it to classical (which is a lost cause the moment the threads start) I'm confused as to what makes classical music, classical music. Like the film and video game soundtracks thread, they were apparently not even close to what classical "is", What is classical music? i am specifically wondering what Petr thinks but ill take anybody else's answer


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> so... I've been going through some forums lately about pop genres and people trying to compare it to classical (which is a lost cause the moment the threads start) I'm confused as to what makes classical music, classical music. Like the film and video game soundtracks thread, they were apparently not even close to what classical "is", What is classical music? i am specifically wondering what Petr thinks but ill take anybody else's answer


Classical music is music made by dead people for people who are dead inside.

(that was a joke btw)


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> i don't get this? once i start my band and eventually get a manager i will record whatever i want


I may be mistaken, but my impression has always been that once you get into show business, you are the least free of all people to do anything you want.


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## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

SiegendesLicht said:


> I may be mistaken, but my impression has always been that once you get into show business, you are the least free of all people to do anything you want.


Chuck Schuldiner from Death made a pretty drastic change to his music from Spiritual Healing to Human so there must be exceptions and there was a black metal band that went from black metal to pop black metal (which is disgusting imho)


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