# What key do you say a piece is in if it changes key several times?



## tonystanton (Mar 18, 2013)

I've just wrote a simpleish piano sonata which changes key several times, so I was wondering what key put in the title if anybody knows the answer to this, thanks.


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## Ravndal (Jun 8, 2012)

It's typical to end the piece in the same key as the one you started in.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

The tonic key.

If there isn't a clear tonic, you can omit the key designation, or give several.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Usually, a piece is in a certain key, and any following changes will feel like disruptions that must be resolved back to the original key. In the late Romantic and Modern eras, though, it has become almost as common to begin in one key and work one's way over to another, and end there instead (see the Symphonies of Mahler and Nielsen for examples). In these cases, the music can be said to be in the ending key.

In pop music, it is not uncommon (or wasn't, as this has fallen out of fashion) to have the final chorus taken "up a step". The song then ends in a different key, usually a step or half step up from where it began. In these cases, I would designate the song as being in the opening key, but with a tag that is meant to be received as a heightening of that key rather than a change of tonality.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

You're still thinking in terms of key areas?


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## tonystanton (Mar 18, 2013)

Thanks for the help everybody. The piece starts in D major, changes to A minor, then to G major, where it remains until the end. So from what you're saying Mahlerian, I should say it's in G major?


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## tonystanton (Mar 18, 2013)

Not quite sure what you mean millionrainbows?


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## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> Usually, a piece is in a certain key, and any following changes will feel like disruptions that must be resolved back to the original key. In the late Romantic and Modern eras, though, it has become almost as common to begin in one key and work one's way over to another, and end there instead (see the Symphonies of Mahler and Nielsen for examples). In these cases, the music can be said to be in the ending key.
> 
> In pop music, it is not uncommon (or wasn't, as this has fallen out of fashion) to have the final chorus taken "up a step". The song then ends in a different key, usually a step or half step up from where it began. In these cases, I would designate the song as being in the opening key, but with a tag that is meant to be received as a heightening of that key rather than a change of tonality.


Is it really in the ending key, though? Mahler's Symphony No. 2 is said to be in C minor, even though it concludes in E-flat major; likewise Mahler's 5th is said to be in C-sharp minor even though that's only the beginning and the symphony concludes in D major.

It seems more common to name the key of the piece after the key the first movement begins in. There are exceptions of course, like Shostakovich's 2nd which begins atonal, but concludes in B major and is called "Symphony No. 2 in B major".


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Tristan said:


> Is it really in the ending key, though? Mahler's Symphony No. 2 is said to be in C minor, even though it concludes in E-flat major; likewise Mahler's 5th is said to be in C-sharp minor even though that's only the beginning and the symphony concludes in D major.


Mahler himself told the publisher of the 5th to not designate a key, rather than confuse people studying the score with one. The 2nd Symphony, likewise, is constantly aiming away from C rather than towards it.

I think that it would help people to drop the key designations for Mahler Symphonies except when they begin and end in the same tonality: 1, 3, 6, 8, and 10.

I've only rarely seen people specify Berlioz's Symphony Fantastique in C major, although it begins (after the intro) and ends in that key.



Tristan said:


> It seems more common to name the key of the piece after the key the first movement begins in.


This was true before progressive tonality, so even though the finale of Beethoven's 9th is firmly in D major, we still designate the work as being in D minor. But that changes when we end, not in a different mode (remember, Mendelssohn's 4th goes the opposite direction, moving from major mode to minor), but in a different tonality. Then we have to think about key designations differently.



tonystanton said:


> Thanks for the help everybody. The piece starts in D major, changes to A minor, then to G major, where it remains until the end. So from what you're saying Mahlerian, I should say it's in G major?


Yes, with the proviso that the ending is properly "prepared" from a tonal perspective. Then you can see your key sequence as a movement from the dominant, D, through an interruption, to the tonic, G.


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## stanchinsky (Nov 19, 2012)

I would say go with D major, although G major is an option. Modulation in a sonata is basically necessary so the fact that you have a couple of keys is normal. However each of these keys should not be given equal consideration in the naming process. I'm assuming that your basic thematic material is in the key of D major so that's probably your best bet.


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> In pop music, it is not uncommon (or wasn't, as this has fallen out of fashion) to have the final chorus taken "up a step". The song then ends in a different key, usually a step or half step up from where it began.


Has that ended? I could never stomach unprepared, senseless chromatic-tonal shifts. =\ I completely understand that it heightens the feelings evoked by forcing the ear to come to understand the context of the new key [actually, and I'm embarrassed to say this, the key change at the end of Britney Spears' "Lucky" is treated quite well with the V4-3 suspension that grounds the key perfectly, is very well done]. But it still bothers me. I realize that this is common practice thinking, but just give me a pivot chord, even if it's only enharmonically interpreted.


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

I've been on a bad-habit string of lateral responses: responding to passing statements rather than directly to the OP.

I'd follow Mahlerian's advice.

Standard sonata form strictly requires modulation. Typically, the primary theme is in the tonic, the secondary theme in the dominant [or in the case of minor-mode sonatas, in the major mediant key], the development in virtually any possible key, the recapitulation restating [largely] the primary and secondary themes [transformed, usually!] in the key of the tonic wherein it cadences.

The tonic is the "tone of rest", and the many keys through which a work is modulating should be related to the tonic key by means of pivot chords. The more remote the key, the greater the tension. The cadence will feature the most forwardly harmonic material, and should cadence on the tonic--preferably with a perfect authentic cadence.

But this formula is only within common practice tonality. The march of Romanticism wildly changed the rules of the sonata form, and of classical tonality as Haydn would have known it. Eventually, the strictures of CPT dissolved in favor of a far more flexible concept of tonality [and eventually, atonality].

I would suggest experimenting with tonalities, cadences, developments, transformations, etc. See what works best for you, discover the sound that you like the most.

My own compositions are strictly within the old styles, and follow the old rules faithfully. But this is not out of dogma, it's out of practice. By mastering the old forms, I hope to work carefully to more modern forms. My present compositions aren't intended for listening, only for experience. I have found this method very useful for my own growth, and not only in music, but also in other aspects of my life. 

Best of luck to you!


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Novelette said:


> Has that ended? I could never stomach unprepared, senseless chromatic-tonal shifts. =\ I completely understand that it heightens the feelings evoked by forcing the ear to come to understand the context of the new key [actually, and I'm embarrassed to say this, the key change at the end of Britney Spears' "Lucky" is treated quite well with the V4-3 suspension that grounds the key perfectly, is very well done]. But it still bothers me. I realize that this is common practice thinking, but just give me a pivot chord, even if it's only enharmonically interpreted.


My impression is that with the rise of dance-pop and hip-hop inspired pop, it's seen as "old-fashioned" to change key (or even chord progression) at all. With rock it happened a lot earlier, as the "step up" final chorus was associated with the kind of ballad music that it was reacting against.

Sometime last year, I was in a public situation where I had to sit and listen to the radio, and there was a song on where this trick was pulled _twice in a row_! It strikes me as cheesy to do once, but twice in succession is beyond tasteless.


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

Schubert has some crazy.modulations..


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

^ Amazing modulations in this work, especially!


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## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

^ That's my favorite Schubert piano sonata movement ^_^


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

Tristan said:


> ^ That's my favorite Schubert piano sonata movement ^_^


Mine too! I cannot help but sense a high disdain in this movement--a kind of newly found confidence in Schubert. It is one of the great tragedies of music that this man died at such a young age. His music became increasingly sophisticated and increasingly ingenious. A titan among composers, truly, an esteemed member of the pantheon of the greats.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Regardless of whichever form / format you've written it in, or its tonal scheme, you've composed a piece in the 21st century.

It may be a sonata, as per any of the numerous models, from earliest Sonata da Chiesa through the binary gems of D. Scarlatti's hundreds of keyboard pieces, to the later classical / romantic models or beyond.

The Elliot Carter piano sonata (there is only one) is 'Piano Sonata,' quite simply, and does not add key to its title.

If you are more concerned with common practice titling, because your piece may be more 'common practice' of type, then my reflex says A and G are the immediate dominant and subdominant of D, the key in which the piece begins. (My comp teacher would have said the work is more than a little 'D-ish' 

When it comes to progressive tonality, it is in theory texts, or as spoken of by musicologists, where the key is mentioned: that famous Nielsen Fifth symphony, in 'progressive tonality' as titled by the composer, is simply 'Symphony No. 5' and does not state a key. Ditto for the Stravinsky Piano Sonata, its three movements each in a different key, the second and third, respectively a third (if memory recalls, a major third) below, then above, the key of its first movement: the work is called 'piano sonata,' period.

'Of late' -- a quick glance at youtube and a search for 'piano sonata' or 'concerto' will lead you to dozens of pieces having little or no relation to any sort of 'classical' music of any era, and as little a relation to the forms by which those pieces are titled. 'Sonata' and 'Concerto' have become a label people find 'glamorous' or as 'adding more credibility,' becoming a means of stamping a work officially as.... 'pre-approved / prestigious / classical' or some such. The further the form and title are not truly relevant from the music as it is, the greater the pretense, or display of ignorance / naivite -- which could color a perfectly good piece (whatever its 'genre') as silly or pretentious.

You've only mentioned one movement, so a question as to if your piece is one of an intended three or four movement work, or a single movement sonata of any type from the panoply of varied forms designated / understood as 'Sonata' should be examined. If it in any way 'qualifies' as to one or more those variants (including your fresh variants) of the array of exemplar pieces, then go ahead and call it 'sonata.'

You are the composer, and need not include the key, or form -- at all -- as part of the work's title. You may title it 'Arthur' if you wish


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