# Best First and Best Last symphonies



## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

I was listening to Mendelssohn's first last night and thinking to myself: Is there a better first symphony than this? 

So then I was thinking of whose are the best first symphonies, and then best last symphonies. Here are the ones that spring to my mind.

Best firsts:
Mendelssohn 1
Brahms 1
Bruckner 1
Beethoven 1

Best lasts:
Sibelius 7
Mozart 41
Brahms 4
Beethoven 9
Schumann 4
Schubert 9
Dvorak 9
Tchaikovsky 6


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I don't know which are the best first and last symphonies, but many of may favorites are already on your lists. I might add Mahler 1 and Berlioz's Symphonie fantastique (if that counts as a symphony) to the list of firsts. Beethoven 9 and Mozart 41 have a rather special place in my heart such that, though I love all those you've mentioned, the Beethoven and Mozart stand above the others.


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## Hiawatha (Mar 13, 2013)

Last

Copland 3

(for some reason, I tend to like second and third symphonies best as a trend among those who did more than 3 although there are a lot of exceptions - eg Sibelius 5 : but I will have to think about this more)


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Don't forget that the numbering of the Mendelssohn symphonies does not match the chronological order
1 - 1824
2 - 1840
3 - started 1829, finished 1842
4 - 1833
5 - 1830


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Best 1st? Shostakovich is definitely in the top 3.

Best last? Probably not Segerstam No. 327 (or whatever he's up to now).


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Becca said:


> Don't forget that the numbering of the Mendelssohn symphonies does not match the chronological order
> 1 - 1824
> 2 - 1840
> 3 - started 1829, finished 1842
> ...


Hmm, would Mendelssohn's 3rd get on my list of lasts... I like it but I think not. I think the 4th and 5th are stronger.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

I overlooked Tchaikovsky 6 for lasts. Will add above.

I'm not familiar enough with Shostakovitch yet to make a determination on that.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)




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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I think Nielsen's first symphony came out fully formed. As for lasts, I would say Mahler's 9th if you don't count the somewhat uncompleted 10th.


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

I’ll throw in some first symphonies: Sibelius, Schumann, RVW, Walton, Scriabin, Rachmaninov, Rott, Nielsen, Martinu, Kalinnikov, Bax, Elgar..

Also Schumann’s Fourth isn’t chronologicallly his last symphony. That would technically be his Third.


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## DBLee (Jan 8, 2018)

Brahms wins best 1st to me.

I like your list of last symphonies, especially Dvorák, Schubert, and Mozart. And, depending on which symphony you consider his last, I might nominate Mahler. His 9th is amazing.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Littlephrase1913 said:


> I'll throw in some first symphonies: Sibelius, Schumann, RVW, Walton, Scriabin, Rachmaninov, Rott, Nielsen, Martinu, Kalinnikov, Bax, Elgar..
> 
> Also Schumann's Fourth isn't chronologically his last symphony. That would technically be his Third.


I will concur with this, although I'll will add:


*Best or compelling First Symphonies*: Draeseke, Goldmark, Balakirev, Hanson, Bernstein, Diamond, Tubin, Artur Kapp, Skulte, Gordon Jacob, Albert Roussel, Prokofiev, Lyatoshynsky, Madetoja, Dutilleux.
*Best or compelling Last Symphonies*: Myaskovsky, Gliere, Glazunov, Rachmaninoff, Martinu, Sibelius, Schubert, Mahler, Bruckner, Suk, Schmidt, Elgar, Parry.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Best first: Brahms’ first. Best last: Brahms’ fourth.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Waldesnacht said:


> Best first: Brahms' first. Best last: Brahms' fourth.


This thought had certainly crossed my mind. But what if the other two?


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

MatthewWeflen said:


> This thought had certainly crossed my mind. But what if the other two?


What of the other two? The second symphony may well be the best second symphony. The third is clearly rivaled by the Eroica, but on the whole I prefer it.


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## ECraigR (Jun 25, 2019)

Waldesnacht said:


> What of the other two? The second symphony may well be the best second symphony. The third is clearly rivaled by the Eroica, but on the whole I prefer it.


Succinct and to the point.

I'll throw my two cents in on a best first being Shostakovich, and a best last being Mahler and Pettersson.


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## D Smith (Sep 13, 2014)

Franck: Both catagories


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## Minor Sixthist (Apr 21, 2017)

mmsbls said:


> I don't know which are the best first and last symphonies, but many of may favorites are already on your lists. I might add Mahler 1 and Berlioz's Symphonie fantastique (if that counts as a symphony) to the list of firsts. Beethoven 9 and Mozart 41 have a rather special place in my heart such that, though I love all those you've mentioned, the Beethoven and Mozart stand above the others.


I couldn't decide on a best last if you asked me, but I'm with you, and was surprised to see you were the only person to mention Mahler 1. It's certainly a contender for me. I agree that Fantastique is worthy too, though I have trouble comparing that to really any other symphony because it's so unique. Berlioz was so ahead of his time with that piece that often I find myself looking up the date of its premier again as if to check, even though I know very well it's 1830. Three years after Beethoven's death. It's almost unreal.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

First:

1. Berlioz 'Fantastique'
2. Mahler
3. Brahms
4. Sibelius
5. Bax

Last (not counting completions):
1. Bruckner 9 (3 mvmt version)
2. Mahler 9
3. Gorecki 3
4. Dvorak 9
5. Saint-Saens 3


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Mozart’s last symphony is the greatest to me. The greatest first symphony is probably Mahler’s first. That’s all I’ve got for now!


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

My current top five symphonies for each category would be:

First:

1 - Brahms;
2 - Berlioz;
3 - Mahler;
4 - Tchaikovsky;
5 - Prokofiev.

Last:

1 - Beethoven;
2 - Brahms;
3 - Mahler (the 9th);
4 - Mozart;
5 - Tchaikovsky.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Best "Firsts":

Sibelius
Shostakovich
Walton


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Best first _and_ last:

Hans Rott - Symphony in E major

Best first - rarely mentioned:
Langgaard
Vaughan Williams

Best last:
Bruckner 9 hands down for me


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

^Vaughan Williams is a good choice too. I actually have not heard the Sea Symphony in its entirety, but anyone with a brain knows it's a big achievement. Perhaps some might say he never lived up to the high standard he set for himself. 

I still must give Bruckner's 9th a fair shot. Unfortunately listening to a full Bruckner symphony is always a chore at this stage in life. Maybe I should just come back later in life.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Brahms or Mahler 1st

Mozart and Schubert last


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Allerius said:


> My current top five symphonies for each category would be:
> 
> First:
> 
> ...


Tchaik 1? you cant be serious - how can you put Tchaik 1 in the same league as Brahms 1, Mahler and Berlioz?


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

stomanek said:


> Tchaik 1? you cant be serious - how can you put Tchaik 1 in the same league as Brahms 1, Mahler and Berlioz?


Influence and historical significance apart, why not? It's a fresh, original and very beautiful program symphony in my opinion, with clever orchestrations and great melodies I think. I really like all four movements of it.

Also, note that I didn't place it together with the other three symphonies you mentioned - it was my fourth choice.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Azol said:


> Best first _and_ last:
> 
> Hans Rott - Symphony in E major
> 
> ...


Except ... part of a 2nd Rott symphony exists.


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## Josquin13 (Nov 7, 2017)

These seven stand out to me,

Mahler's 1st & 9th.
Beethoven 1st & 9th
Sibelius 1st & 7th
Brahms 1st & 4th
Schumann 1st & 3rd "Rhenish" (Schumann's 3rd was actually his final symphony, & not the 4th)
Mendelssohn 1st & 5th--if we can exclude his earliest symphonies as juvenalia?
Prokofiev 1st "Classical" & 7th

Off the top of my head, I can't remember W.A. Mozart & F.J. Haydn's 1st symphonies, but they may be worthy to be included, I'm not sure ...

A case could be made for these five, as well:

Anton Bruckner 1st & 9th, if we can exclude his Symphony No. '00' in F minor, which I don't overly care for myself: 



, as well as Bruckner's Symphony No. 0 in D minor "Die Nullte", which I like better: 



1st: 



9th:




Carl Nielsen 1st & 6th "Sinfonia semplice"
1st: 



6th: 




Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky--1st "Winter Daydreams" & 6th "Pathétique"
1st: 



6th: 




Dmitri Shostakovich 1st & 15th:
1st:



15th: 




Ralph Vaughan Williams 1st "A Sea Symphony" & 9th (although RVW's 1st isn't one of my favorites)
1st: 



9th: 




Others that come to mind, among composers more off the beaten path:

Bohuslav Martinu 1st & 6th "Fantasies symphoniques" 
1st: 



6th: 




Alberic Magnard 1st & 4th
1st: 



4th: 




Fartein Valen 1st & 4th
1st: 



4th: 




Joonas Kokkonen 1st & 4th:
1st: 



4th: 




Joseph Guy Marie Ropartz 1st & 5th:

1st: 



5th: 




Walter Piston 1st & 8th
1st: 



8th: 




Allan Pettersson 1st & 16th (Pettersson's intended 17th exists only in fragment form):
1st: 



16th: 




Vagn Holmboe 1st & 13th: https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Sym...=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B0000016P9
1st: Not on You Tube:https://www.amazon.com/Vagn-Holmboe...mboe+symphony+1&qid=1562889343&s=music&sr=1-2
13th: Not on You Tube:https://www.amazon.com/Symphonies-1...=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B0000016MM

Hans Werner Henze 1st & 10th:
1st (revised): 



10th: 




Einar Englund 1st "War" & 7th 
1st: 



7th: 




Einojuhani Rautavaara 1st & 8th "The Journey" (perhaps, but I'm still getting to know these works & the full cycle):
1st:



8th:




Ib Nørholm 1st & 13th--possibly, but I've not heard Nørholm's 13th, as I don't think it's been recorded yet. 
1st: 



13th: Not on You Tube.

Finally, here are three underrated first & lasts, IMO, but it gets complicated because the composers in question withdrew their earliest symphonies, so it may be difficult for people to accept that their extant 1st Symphonies are actually 1sts:

Vincent Persichetti 3rd & 9th:
3rd: Persichetti's 1st & 2nd symphonies were later withdrawn by the composer, so his 3rd is his 1st symphony: 



9th "Janiculum": 




William Schuman--3rd & 10th "American Muse". Like Persichetti, Schuman withdrew his 1st & 2nd Symphonies. So again, his 3rd is actually his first symphony. However, there is a CBS recording of the 2nd, so Schuman didn't withdraw it soon enough: 




3rd: 



10th: 




Oliver Knussen: 2nd & 3rd--Knussen withdrew his 1st symphony, so his 2nd is his 1st.
2nd: 



3rd: 




I've yet to explore the symphonies of Eduard Tubin and Rued Langaard in depth, but have liked what I've heard so far.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Becca said:


> Except ... part of a 2nd Rott symphony exists.


Is that why Brahms tried to blow up his train? To prevent that from being finished?


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Elgar symphonies 1 and 2.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

flamencosketches said:


> ....Unfortunately listening to a full Bruckner symphony is always a chore at this stage in life. Maybe I should just come back later in life.


Just listen to 1 or 2 mvts at a time.....no law says you have to listen to a full symphony every time....


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Josquin13 said:


> Bruckner's Symphony No. 0 in D minor "Die Nullte", which I like better


We can rule this one out for sure, as Die Nullte was written (chronologically) between the 1st and the 2nd.


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## rice (Mar 23, 2017)

Myaskovsky's 27th is fantastic.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Heck148 said:


> Just listen to 1 or 2 mvts at a time.....no law says you have to listen to a full symphony every time....


I don't like listening to single symphonic movements, but that's how I've been getting to finally appreciate Mahler's 3rd. I just cannot take more than one at a time for some reason.

With Bruckner it's always one and done. I always tend to stop right before the adagios.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

On the subject of Tchaikovsky 1, I just listened to it again on a brisk walk through my neighborhood. It is indeed a very Fine symphony. Nice themes, well developed, brisk and exciting. It may well merit inclusion in the list of best firsts. It is almost certainly the equal of Beethoven 1, though not Brahms 1.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Excellent Firsts:

Rachmaninoff 
Sibelius 
Walton
Martinů 
Schumann
Brahms

Excellent Lasts:

Sibelius
Mozart
Saint-Saëns
Schumann
Rachmaninoff
Brahms


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

Martinu’s First is indeed excellent! It might be my favorite of the cycle, which as a whole is really quite good.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

MatthewWeflen said:


> On the subject of Tchaikovsky 1, I just listened to it again on a brisk walk through my neighborhood. It is indeed a very Fine symphony. Nice themes, well developed, brisk and exciting. It may well merit inclusion in the list of best firsts. It is almost certainly the equal of Beethoven 1, though not Brahms 1.


Tchaik #1 is indeed a very fine symphony...great listening, most enjoyable to play....same with his #s 2 and 3...


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

Scriabins 1st in EM and Bruckners 9th in Dm.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Heck148 said:


> Tchaik #1 is indeed a very fine symphony...great listening, most enjoyable to play....same with his #s 2 and 3...


glad you said that

I dont like the 2nd either - so its just me.


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