# Haydn's Massterpiece?



## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Favourite J. Haydn mass?

Definitely a hard one for me, I am yet to thoroughly listen to the Schöpfungsmesse (which I somehow feel might end up being my favourite). BUT,

Paukenmesse, Theresienmesse and Harmoniemesse are on top so far, hard to decide between them. I still need to listen to the Harmoniemesse in more detail, as I've only recently purchased it. 

Honourary mention: Mariazellermesse (1782) in C Major, another excellent one.


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## Geo Dude (May 22, 2013)

Oh, good, we're going genre by genre (or at least dealing with one genre.)

I can't give an opinion on his late masses yet: I have two copies on my shelves (Weil and Burdick) but I haven't listened thoroughly enough to address this issue.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

For me, it's got to be the *Nikolaimesse* (H XXII 6), with its beautiful 6/4 opening _Kyrie_. The CD version I have is the Academy of Ancient Music/Simon Preston and the Choir of Christchurch Cathedral, Oxford, giving a very fine HIP rendition.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Geo Dude said:


> Oh, good, we're going genre by genre (or at least dealing with one genre.)
> 
> I can't give an opinion on his late masses yet: I have two copies on my shelves (Weil and Burdick) but I haven't listened thoroughly enough to address this issue.


Ahh, you've been missing out! The masses are great, I'm not even religious but I really like them.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

TalkingHead said:


> For me, it's got to be the *Nikolaimesse* (H XXII 6), with its beautiful 6/4 opening _Kyrie_. The CD version I have is the Academy of Ancient Music/Simon Preston and the Choir of Christchurch Cathedral, Oxford, giving a very fine HIP rendition.


Yes, that one is great too - I like the melodies in it.


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## musicphotogAnimal (Jul 24, 2012)

Heiligmesse and the Theresienmesse for me. I prefer the two, the first because of the fact that during my time as a music student, I was with a choir that sang that for their annual concert. The second because of it's beauty.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

cool, the Heiligmesse is probably the most joyful of the late masses. I agree that the Theresienmesse is awesome, the melodies for the soloists are so well done. In terms of complexity though, the Harmoniemesse seems to be the most elaborate work.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

My favorite Haydn pieces: Lord Nelson's Mass, the trumpet concerto, cello concertos, and The Creation


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## ScipioAfricanus (Jan 7, 2010)

The Creation does it for me.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

I thought the post title was a typo and was all set to vote for 76 string quartets. :lol:

Probably Schöpfungsmesse.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

GreenMamba said:


> I thought the post title was a typo and was all set to vote for 76 string quartets. :lol:
> 
> Probably Schöpfungsmesse.


Nope, the spelling was deliberate and was intended to amuse . The thread is about the favourite Haydn mass, not the favourite Haydn piece.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Anyone reminded of Esterházy's snide remark after hearing Beethoven's Mass in C? I can't remember the exact quote, but it was something along the lines of 'not as good as Haydn'. Bet Beethoven nearly hit the guy.


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## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

For me, Mass No. 11 (Lord Nelson) is definitely the greatest; it's the first one I heard, it's the only one I've seen in concert, but I have a liking for #5 (Great Organ) and #3 (St. Cecilia) as well.


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## Geo Dude (May 22, 2013)

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Ahh, you've been missing out! The masses are great, I'm not even religious but I really like them.


Indeed. I wasn't really a mass person at the time I got the Weil set and right now I have a big listening pile (but they're on it!). That other set _does_ include the complete masses and not just the late ones after all.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I lean toward the Nelson Mass. Probably because that's the score I have marked up.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

TalkingHead said:


> Anyone reminded of Esterházy's snide remark after hearing Beethoven's Mass in C? I can't remember the exact quote, but it was something along the lines of 'not as good as Haydn'. Bet Beethoven nearly hit the guy.


Well, it's not easy to top Haydn. It was Esterházy's personal opinion, didn't he have a right to one? I also don't think that if a piece is by Beethoven, that this automatically means that it is 'better' than Haydn.


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## Ravndal (Jun 8, 2012)

So many Haydn discussions on this forum. I'm starting to wonder if I'm missing out on something! Perhaps I have to check out one of these masses


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

d'oh, well delete the concertos from my choice! I missed the clever thread spelling


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## hreichgott (Dec 31, 2012)

I love the Lord Nelson mass, but it's also the only Haydn mass I know well. I need to check out the others. 
Haydn is my favorite composer to play.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Well, it's not easy to top Haydn. It was Esterházy's personal opinion, didn't he have a right to one? I also don't think that if a piece is by Beethoven, that this automatically means that it is 'better' than Haydn.


Prince Nikolaus Esterhazy II commissioned the Mass in C from Beethoven and pronounced it "unbearably ridiculous and detestable," adding "I am angry and mortified." I don't know if masses come with a money-back guarantee...

Everybody's a critic!


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

and what do people think of the longest mass, the 1st Mariazellermesse?


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## TrevBus (Jun 6, 2013)

Probably 'The Paukenmesse'. I saw a performance of it and instantly fell in love w/it. Getting ready to order Hickox's recording of it. 2nd would be 'The Creation' Saw that in concert as well, w/same reaction.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

TrevBus said:


> Probably 'The Paukenmesse'. I saw a performance of it and instantly fell in love w/it. Getting ready to order Hickox's recording of it. 2nd would be 'The Creation' Saw that in concert as well, w/same reaction.


You mean The Creation or the Creation Mass? The thread was actually about masses, but of course The Creation is awesome too .


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## JCarmel (Feb 3, 2013)

Drawn Favourites, for me.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

The Nelson Mass is my favourite, in the Guest/Willcocks Argo set.


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## Schumann (Aug 12, 2013)

Missa Cellensis (Mariazeller Messe) In C, H 22/8

Also his Stabat Mater is one of my most beloved works of Haydn!


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Schumann said:


> Missa Cellensis (Mariazeller Messe) In C, H 22/8
> 
> Also his Stabat Mater is one of my most beloved works of Haydn!


Wait, you mean the Missa Cellensis from 1782, right? That one is awesome, I love the Dona nobis pacem:






(at 31:29).


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Just got the Schöpfungsmesse in the mail. It seems to be 'heading' towards the Harmoniemesse in its shifts from major to minor and the passages for solo winds and 'looking back' to the Heiligmesse in terms of tunefulness. The quotation from the Creation was a great addition, I really liked it. I also find the introduction to the Kyrie to be one of the best introductions to a mass that I've heard by him - I love that dramatic forte moment.


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## chrisco97 (May 22, 2013)

I feel stupid. I thought the title was a typo, and just noticed that this thread was referring to his Masses and that is why the title is like that... :lol:


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

chrisco97 said:


> I feel stupid. I thought the title was a typo, and just noticed that this thread was referring to his Masses and that is why the title is like that... :lol:


Yep, gotta have some humour in there, it's Haydn .


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## IBMchicago (May 16, 2012)

Absolutely The Creation. _[adding extra words as instructed]_


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

IBMchicago said:


> Absolutely The Creation. _[adding extra words as instructed]_


muahaha, you fell for the 'joke' - we were actually talking about the favourite mass by J. Haydn, not the favourite piece  - so I'm assuming your favourite mass would be the Schöpfungsmesse?


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## Roi N (Oct 22, 2013)

The Nelson Mass is just way better than all masses - that Kyrie is surreal, the Gloria is glorius and the Credo canon is just so long and well written. And this is only the first half - the Sanctus, Benedictus and Angus Dei are also of the highest of standards.
And this is coming from an atheist


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I'm not organizationally religious but I love the Haydn late masses.

Particular favorites are Theresienmesse, Paukenmesse and Heiligmesse.

Of course finding the right performances is vital. I try and avoid any "messe" ones.


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