# A certain aesthetic/cinematic orchestral music



## MrPhilosophy (Aug 2, 2013)

I really want to avoid asking so vague of a question and sounding ignorant of orchestral music and the greats that have composed them, but as a musical novice only starting to have in interest in orchestral music I find myself in a predicament.

I absolutely love orchestral music, however, there are some elements in many classical pieces that even though I enjoy, just don't move me as much. it has always been those modern compositions found in cinema accompanying feelings of sadness, triumph, discomfort or even grandeur that catch my attention the most. these are the kinds of compositions that many times go nameless in the backdrop of someone mourning their dead mother or the scene of a daring battle, that truly drive the emotion of the cinematic piece home.

now I am not completely Ignorant of classical or romantic pieces that have the same affect. for who can forget: Tchaikovsky's 1812 overture, Wagners ride of the Valkyrie, or Beethoven's ode to joy.

I know everyone has their opinion and their respected tastes however I am curious as to what elements are found in these compositions as opposed to others that attract me so much.

quite simply, I am trying to find more music with this kind of cinematic aesthetic.

to make this question a little less vague, let me just ask if you more experienced listeners can direct me to more music that sounds like the fallowing and perhaps enlighten me on the elements that these pieces contain.

il direct you to the music and ask a question.

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First one is the reason I was drawn to orchestral music when I was younger. it has a chores, and its in Latin, its awesome. don't get distracted by the fact that it was in a game.






The contrast between the male and female chores is AMAZING and I cant find anything like this! except ode to joy, only this one has that militant drum sound. To me, it kind of has the feel of the Russian National anthem.

so what else is there like this?? I don't know where to find something with that much contrast in the chores!!

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second one, just a really sad one.






this one is really minimalist and really repetitive, but in a good way. it starts off real soft with a guitar melody then swells into a beautiful string melody that picks up and clams down and repeats through out the piece.

simple can be beautiful to. any classic or romantic stuff like this?

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the third. also from a game, but don't worry, a real orchestra can be seen playing it!






what can I say about this one? its daring, adventures, and heroic, and I simply do not know where to begin to find more classical music like this even with modern industrial era composers. I simply do not have the knowledge.

So, what is different about these compositions then?

now I know that the emotions music can invoke can be subjective so let the question again be about the elements these pieces have that I personally can not find in many classical pieces I have listened to besides few like the aforementioned Tchaikovsky 1812 overture.

Is it the use of poly-tonality? can it be the minimalist approach to some of the melody's and perhaps the use of extensive repetition? or can it be the use of slow drawn out ambiguous stretched out melody? or maybe the use of many orchestral hits, drums, and symbols?

I would appreciate to be directed to more music that sounds like these three, and maybe start a descusion about these elements!


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## Yardrax (Apr 29, 2013)

All the examples you posted are from films and video games. They are designed as background music for works in those mediums. The reason you can't find examples of classical orchestral music that sound much like them is that the aesthetic and intent is totally different from classical symphonic and orchestral writing. Music with the aesthetic you are looking for is found in music written for films and video games.

Instrumentation is not equivalent to genre, the question you are asking is akin to asking an indie rock forum why there are no indie rock bands with the same aesthetic as Jag Panzer even though the latter has guitar, bass, drums and vocals.


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## MrPhilosophy (Aug 2, 2013)

Ah, back ground music? and what would be the intent? to enhance imagery and invoke emotion correct?

We may have not had cinema in the romantic and classical periods however many composers sought to provide imagery and even tell a story with their music. examples are as said before Tchaikovsky 1812 overture or something such as Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique which tells a whole story!

If I am correct, around that time there was the advent of the leitmotif, or recurring instances of certain melody's attributed to certain characters, places, and even emotions within a story. I mean take Tchaikovsky romeo and Juliet theme, which by the way has been over done to death in cinema!

They may have not had movies and video games back then but they sure had story's and they sure had drama! And what better way to express it then with music?

So how can you say this is not a valid question? I did show an orchestra did I not? 

I guess I may have answered my own question however, it may just be the use of motifs and repetition. true however this type of music is more romantic, modern, and post modern then classical I suppose. even so it worth talking about.

So if some one cares to share, are there any composers that make something like this or what?


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

i think instead of trying to find music that fits your limited experience, it would be better to try to broaden your experience to embrace a wider range of music. Film music generally is intended to support visuals. This means not having a lot of counterpoint or subtext. The emotions are all on the surface and they are all going in the same direction. If you can open your mind to a more sophisticated form that includes several themes going on at the same time, you'll find the classical music blows most modern film music totally out of the water.

If you want a suggestion of where to start and some kibitzing after you listen to help you understand what you've heard, I'd be happy to help. Classical music requires a little bit more from the listener than other types of music.


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## MrPhilosophy (Aug 2, 2013)

Don't get me wrong I appropriate classical and I have more then experienced different forms of music, but we all have our preferred tastes. I am not whatsoever claiming that one holds superiority over the other but there are some elements that move me more then others.

I have to kindly disagree with your view on what you call film music, for it seems a little shallow. Even though much of it can be generic many modern and post modern pieces can be as sophisticated for many have to move with their story's. there are many classical pieces that were meant to support visuals, though usually operas and ballets.

I wonder if you even took a listen to the ones I provided?

as I said before, I may have answered my own question, it may just be the use of motifs and orchestral cues that I am fond of that really only came to be widely used around the late romantic periods. I feel that some can actually despise this if abused.

Still, the simple question remains, i'm looking for more compositions like the three I provided and their composers . The first one especially. As I mentioned I only know a select few. If you can direct me to something akin to the 1812 overture I would surely be happy, but I am also curious about 1900 1950s composers.


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## ThatClassyKid (Aug 3, 2013)

Some of the elements that I have observed in music that is powerful and stirring, is brass scoring, percussive accents, and usually repetitive strings. Try listening to "Dumbarton Oaks" by Stravinsky. It has that playful feel to it. And you'll notice some of the moving brass sections. It has a bit lighter texture due to the instrumentation, but it was immediately what I thought about when I was listening to the FFXII link you have provided.


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## Guest (Aug 3, 2013)

What seems to be implied in responses so far is that music for films is shallow and not worth bothering with. This ignores the fact that many films use excerpts from music _not _composed for cinema! Try going to IMDB and looking up one of your favourite movies and check out the soundtrack listing. Or look up a composer and see where his/her music has been used. For example, last night I was listening to the BBC Proms - Shostakovich's 10th Symphony - and I looked it up. A piece of it was used in _Children of Men_.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0006291/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1

Or Stravinsky

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0006311/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1

whose music was used in _Rise of the Guardians

_Or Mozart

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0003665/?ref_=sr_3

whose music has been used in over 800 soundtracks including _Batman Begins_!

Had I not seen _Soylent Green_, it might have been a long time before I got to listen to Beethoven's 6th Symphony (one of his shallower works, I think). Cinema is a great starting point to find your way into classical.


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## MrPhilosophy (Aug 2, 2013)

My sentiments exactly! as with Tchaikovsky romeo and Juliet theme that has been done to death, though used jokingly sadly. Children of Men happens to be one of my favorites as well. 

Would you have any idea what I could find that is akin to the first piece I link? I know the use of chores in cinema can be over done and generic but I feel that this one goes beyond that. As I said, it really is the piece that made me interested in orchestral in general. 

I only know a few with the same elements and feeling: Beethoven ode to joy, Mahler,s Symphony No. 8 (in some parts), and Sergy Mikhalkov's Russian national anthem. Its the contrast between the masculine and feminine chores that I find exciting! I don't know much else that sounds like it besides some contemporary stuff, though maybe some modern pieces (the Russian national anthem for instance) have the same elements and those really heroic motifs.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

John Adams: 
_Short Ride in a Fast Machine_ (overture, 4'24'' -- during which time this brief piece takes to run, Harry Potter has already done two-plus round trip flights on the Hippogryph 




_Harmonium_ for large orchestra and full chorus (here 1st movement)





Einojuhani Rautavaara ~ _Symphony No. 7
_








Carl Nielsen ~ _Symphony No. 5._ This is amazing, a masterwork, and given the time, I think you may find it seriously engaging.





Roy Harris ~ _Symphony No. 3_





William Schuman ~ _Symphony No. 3_
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=william+schuman+symphony+3

Paul Hindemith ~ Concert Music for Strings and Brass









Aaron Copland:
_The Promise of Living_, the composer's orchestral version of a chorus from his opera, _The Tender Land_




Here is the final (fourth) Movement of his Symphony No 3.
...the familiar brass fanfare is Copland's _Fanfare for the Common Man_, which he used as thematic material here.





Arthur Honegger:
_Symphony No. 5, "Di Tre Re,"_ The first movement opens with towering polychords, the last is a motor-driven movement.












Pastorale d'été (as gentle as the above symphony is fierce)





Serge Prokofiev:
The Battle on the Ice (from the cantata _Alexander Nevsky_ -- reworked into concert presentation format, Alexander Nevsky was one of, if not the very first, film scores!)




Scythian Suite; originally a ballet set in pre-christian Russia, the composer extracted a suite for concert performance.




Symphony No. 5




Symphony No. 7





Maurice Ravel:
Daphnis et Chloe (a ballet score for very large orchestra, full chorus.) 
for a taste, try the segment, _Sunrise_ @ 38'40' - 43'40''





Stravinsky:
L'oiseau de feu (the firebird); the full length ballet




Symphony in Three Movements













Bohuslav Martinů - _Toccata e Due Canzoni_ I. _Toccata_





Takashi Yoshimatsu:_
Symphony No. 5,_ 3rd movement




_Piano Concerto 'Memo Flora'_ In this link, go to 'more,' and at the bottom is a live link to start at the beginning of this piece.





Choral Works: the following are near prototypical of the later various takes on voice / chorus and orchestra as heard in films.
...along with the above mentioned Prokofiev, _Alexander Nevsky_

Stravinsky
_Oedipus Rex_, cantata (here in one helluva staging) music starts @ 2'27''




_Symphony of Psalms_





Carl Orff ~ _Carmina Burana_ (especially the sometimes most or only known part, _O Fortuna_ I recommend the complete work.

Hoping they all keep you happily busy for a while....

P.s. I believe there is a film and video score niche on TC. Many of the TC members who also know and love film music may be the better sub-group to ask about similar classical works... since they avidly consume and know about both genres, I bet more would have ready suggestions of like classical, since their sense of associations and familiarity with the music you like might be on a similar wave length.

I also more than agree with Bigshot. Why not get adventurous? You would not be the first to come to classical music via the symphonic film score and video games!


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

MrPhilosophy said:


> Don't get me wrong I appropriate classical and I have more then experienced different forms of music, but we all have our preferred tastes.


Tastes are cultivated. They aren't static things that you're born with.

I'm nicely trying to tell you that if you want to enjoy classical music, you should appreciate it for what it is, not require it to be what it really isn't. If you make an effort to understand it, you'll probably find you like it. Millions before you have found that out.


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## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

The most obvious link is Ralph Vaughan Williams' Sinfonia Antartica, which was adapted from a film score. Vaughan Williams liked composing for films because they let him experiment with orchestration, and his subsequent orchestrations are sometimes noticeably more extravagant. Here's the third movement in a performance by Bernard Haitink (his full performance doesn't appear to be on youtube):





Shostakovich may serve you well, too, see for example this:





Also try Górecki's third symphony:





Prokofiev's Scythian Suite (there is a comment that says 'this is boss music before there was boss music'):





Part of Le Sacre du Printemps:





As for the more soothing second piece, Vaughan Williams his Phantasy Quintet:





Honegger's third symphony:





For heroic, try Bruckner's third symphony:





Another random one:





I rarely gave you full pieces, because I'm merely attempting to understand your taste now; I have much more, including personal experience with people with similar tastes and first hand experience with much film and video game music. Do report back after you have listened to some of the things people linked you here, so that we may help you further. People are recommending you to widen your tastes only because the connection between the aesthetic you are looking for and classical music isn't all that tenuous. The orchestral sound is lifted directly from classical practices (much of it taken from Claude Debussy, see for example La Mer), early film composers were all classically educated, and Koichi Sugiyama, often named the father of video game music, was classically educated as well, still taking hints from it - he sometimes uses twelve tone themes, for example. John Williams, widely listened to, stated himself much of his sound comes from the Russians, including Shostakovich but also Prokofiev, Stravinsky, Rimsky-Korsakov, Glazunov and so on; his Star Wars music bears famous resemblance to the Planets suite of Gustav Holst. I myself have a soft spot for Hitoshi Sakimoti, who, as you know, composed part of the score for Final Fantasy XII. If you get into classical, you will have enough music of this sort for a lifetime, and will have the tools to find pieces like the ones people have already linked yourself.

Do please report back though, we're all interested in how it's going


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## MrPhilosophy (Aug 2, 2013)

Oh my goodness I am almost in tears! what an amazing selection, I will surely take a listen to all that is suggested Here and come back with my thoughts!

And yes I agree that tastes are cultivated but they are also subjective. understand its not that I don't like 1730 1900 classical elements, I very much enjoy them, but I prefer later forms.

Much the same way I enjoy abstract impressionist art of the modern era however much prefer neoclassical and renaissance art. I enjoy looking at abstract and would love to see it in a gallery if I had the chance though I much rather have neoclassical art on my wall. 

I'l admit however I cant say much, as I don't know much of whats out there, and im sure there are elements in classical that I would prefer but that's why I seek the advise of more knowledgeable people to broaden my understanding.

Now i"m off to listen to this wonderful selection. cant thank you enough!:lol:


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## Stargazer (Nov 9, 2011)

Well, I could post you a lot of suggestions like this:






But I get the impression that's not what you're after, and that you want classical music that gives you the same sort of emotions that film/video game music give you...am I right? Unfortunately, that's kind of a hard thing to do, since those film/video game pieces will evoke entirely different emotions in different people. For example, for me, the first one invoked boredom and a slight ringing in my ears (just joking lol). Anyways, here's two suggestions, but I have no idea how good they'll be!

First: Cherubini - Requiem in C minor: 



Really loud chorus? Check! Can't go wrong with a little Cherubini now and then.

Second: 
Arvo Part - Fratres: 



The opening piano in the second one you posted reminded me of Avro Part's Fratres a little.

Third: I don't really know what you meant by the contrast between the male/female voices...most choral pieces feature both male and female vocalists, often singing on opposite ends of the spectrum. Anyways, this comes to mind, check out the 5th movement in particular (starts around the 14:00 mark)

Rachmaninoff - All-Night Vigil:


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## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

the fashion of the past was the virtuosic, big and rebellious style. the punters wanted to hear this at a concert.

now that tv and the internet have taken over, the style of classical music is the cinematic style.

classical music is clinging onto other arts to stay alive.


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## MrPhilosophy (Aug 2, 2013)

After listening to all these amazing pieces, I have had plenty of time to come to an understanding of what fits my tastes as well as the time to cultivate new ones. many thanks to all of you.

The question remains, what is it that I prefer in an orchestral composition? all of these selections were all certainly magnificent but I will point out just a few favorites and what I like about them in order to further understand what elements move me the most.

Short Ride in a Fast Machine by John Adams





This one was just to entertaining, the percussion was great and the staccato melody of the brass as well as the beat made this one really exciting to hear. around the parts where the melody got a little smoother the combination of bass and treble brass made the sound incredibly full.

Shostakovich Symphony No. 10,





I can really feel the tension in this one. Certainly hectic and energetic and those brass sounds where incredibly grand and some what ominous .

Aaron Copland - The Promise of Living (not sure if thats the real name of the piece)





This one starts off real subtle, with some lazy little strings and then progresses little by little until it builds up and uses the entire power of the orchestra to create pure emotion, then it dies down again at the end.

Henryk Górecki - Symphony Nº3 (Symphony of Sorrowful Songs)





aww. this one is like a breath of fresh air... just a long winding melody of beautiful strings. In many parts it is subtle until it swells into a beautiful dance of strings that makes my hart sink every time.

Takashi Yoshimatsu 5th symphony





I fell in love with this one! its certainly whimsical. I would have to say that out of all the selections that were given this one moved me the most. a guess it would have to be the subtlety, and perhaps the long winding string melody's together with the use of fluttering flutes, chromatic percussion and sudden swirls in the strings. Just an incredibly thought provoking piece. I will have to look for more from this composer.

So what is it that moved me from these pieces? If I could jot down a list of what elements it is that I fancy the most in these compositions it would be the following.

use of complex polyphony
much use of percussion 
much use of hits/crashes/trills and cues.
use of Poly-tonality 
lows and highs together in harmony/tonal contrast. I love contrast.
a wide range of timbers.
use of motifs/ostinatos and themes and repeating pasterns and melody's.
simplicity of form/progression. 
build ups and breakdowns.
long winding melody's and more use of whole notes.
use of staccato is good to for the higher tempo pieces.
chorus!

All of these elements do not have to be included in a piece for me to prefer it though, some can be excluded. It seems to me that these elements are what really move me however. Perhaps I prefer complexity in tone, timing, and timber but simplicity in progression and form to some it up nicely.

From the heroic militant sounding brass and percussion in many anthems, or the long winding Ambiguous strings of a sad piece to the whimsical thought provoking trills of a piece that speaks adventure and wonder; even the dark brooding shaky strings in pieces meant to invoke an ominous ambiance. all of these including a simple little motif.

Any way, that's what I can some up when it comes to my tastes.

I'm curious as to hear the thoughts of some one more experienced on the mater of the elements in orchestral composition and style, and once again to be directed to more composers. I am willing to expand and learn.:lol:


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*Respighi, Strauss and Hanson*

There have been so many great recommendations I hesitate to burden you with a few more. You might try the following:

Respighi: Roman Trilogy (_Pines of Rome, Fountains of Rome, Roman Festivals)/I]
Strauss: Tone Poems (Big influence on Korngold)
Symphonies of Howard Hanson, particularly the Second (Romantic).

We can come up with a few more, but it sounds like you have enough to keep you busy>_


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## MrPhilosophy (Aug 2, 2013)

I would not be burdened what so ever, I would love much more selections in fact.

I would love to listen to something with the kind of aesthetic I mention in my previous post. please have a look! something modern, or post modern, or anything with much color and percussion.

something more like Takashi Yoshimatsu perhaps.





I have actually listened to pines of Rome, I enjoy it very much.


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## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

Try Debussy's Nocturnes, Rautavaara's Cantus Arcticus, Shostakovich's Fourth Symphony and Bartóks Concerto for Orchestra. Those are closer to the classical tradition as usually practiced, but if you like any of those there's a whole lot more. They're not as short and completely cinematic, but they're really close.


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## BlackDahlia (Aug 12, 2013)

MrPhilosophy said:


> I know everyone has their opinion and their respected tastes however I am curious as to what elements are found in these compositions as opposed to others that attract me so much.


Well, first off, I haven't read the responses to your post in this thread so if this has been touched on, please forgive me... The easy answer is that you have a visual to go along with the music, which makes it easier to process what you are hearing. I recognize a glaring difference between true classical music and soundtrack orchestral music. The composers of olde created music and emotion out of nothing... Mussorgsky, Mozart, Handel... they set the mood, write the story... however you interprit it.

It is much more challenging to really appreceiate the classical works, as there is no visual to go along with the music. But... the reward is still there, you just have to slow down and open up to the music from beginning to end. I can do that quite easily, as I am no stranger to "difficult" music.

So, to answer your question, I think the same elements you find appealing in movie orchestral music are also to be found in the traditional classical pieces... but due to the lack of a visual element, it takes a bit more dedication to discover them. It is definitely worth the effort, because once your mind is open, there is no closing it again.


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## MrPhilosophy (Aug 2, 2013)

thank very much.

You should read some of my later posts as well, as in some of my posts I explain the possible musical elements that I enjoy in the compositions I prefer. again, there is a certain aesthetic I prefer. this aesthetic tends to be found in cinema but is not subject to it alone as it explained in the post.

the aesthetic that I like seems to lie in the more modern compositions 1850-1950 with more timber and other elements I mention. please have a look at my other posts if you will. I explain these elements further.


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