# Sibelius 7



## juliante

Hi folks 

I have just discovered Sibelius 7th and after 2 listens I feel it is a wonderful piece. I only have Rattle / BPO so was wondering if there are any other recommendations. Given the lack of love for Rattle I have sensed on this forum i expect there will be some alternative recordings preferred....! Many thanks. 

(Interested on thoughts on this Rattle interpretation as well. I like it but it's all i know. I can imagine other conductors getting more depth and at times the sound is a bit less rich than it might be, possibly.)


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## AClockworkOrange

I am not the biggest fan of Rattle, but I really enjoy his Sibelius recordings with the Berliner Philharmoniker.

I regard Thomas Beecham & the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra very highly. One of my favourites.

Paavo Berglund delivers a wonderful performance with the Helsinki Philharmonic Orchestra. He also provides an interesting take with the Chamber Orchestra of Europe. I haven't heard his Bournemouth recording but understand it is highly regarded.

Leonard Bernstein with the New York Philharmonic is also a very enjoyable performance.

Karajan also recorded some beautiful performances - I tend to prefer the EMI recordings either with the Berliner Philharmoniker ('80's) or the Philharmonia.


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## Marschallin Blair

*


AClockworkOrange said:



I am not the biggest fan of Rattle, but I really enjoy his Sibelius recordings with the Berliner Philharmoniker.

I regard Thomas Beecham & the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra very highly. One of my favourites.

Paavo Berglund delivers a wonderful performance with the Helsinki Philharmonic Orchestra. He also provides an interesting take with the Chamber Orchestra of Europe. I haven't heard his Bournemouth recording but understand it is highly regarded.

Leonard Bernstein with the New York Philharmonic is also a very enjoyable performance.

Karajan also recorded some beautiful performances - I tend to prefer the EMI recordings either with the Berliner Philharmoniker ('80's) or the Philharmonia.

Click to expand...

*I'm a fan of AClockWorkOrange and his exquisite manners, but I'm 'not' a fan of Rattle's, Berglund's (COE), or Bernstein's (DG) Sibelius.

I find Karajan's EMI/Philharmonia Sibelius beautiful if a bit underdramatic and his 1960/Philharmonia Sibelius _Fifth_ to be the capstone of ennobling and cascadingly beautiful Sibelius readings.

I love all of his DG Sibelius endeavors, sixties and eighties. _;D_


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## AClockworkOrange

Marschallin Blair said:


> I'm a fan of AClockWorkOrange and his exquisite manners, but I'm 'not' a fan of Rattle's, Berglund's (COE), or Bernstein's (DG) Sibelius.
> 
> I find Karajan's EMI/Philharmonia Sibelius beautiful if a bit underdramatic and his 1960/Philharmonia Sibelius _Fifth_ to be the capstone of ennobling and cascadingly beautiful Sibelius readings.
> 
> I love all of his DG Sibelius endeavors, sixties and eighties. _;D_


Hi Marschallin tiphat, I meant Bernstein's Sony recordings from the '60's. I haven't heard Bernstein's latter DG recrodings of Sibelius though I understand he somewhat distorts the Second Symphony.

Karajan's tone poem recordings from the '80's on DG are really enjoyable. I tend to dread '80's Karajan but his Sibelius is always enjoyable whatever the decade. This disc pairs wonderfully with the Berlin Symphony recordings on EMI.

I would have mentioned Barbirolli's Halle recordings on EMI but it has been a very long time since I actually sat down and listened to them, so I couldn't comment on them reliably. The last Barbirolli I listened to was Mahler's Ninth with the Berliner Philharmoniker and a recording of Elgar's 'Gerontious (Janet Baker is radiant) - both beautiful performances but neither relevant here. I know I enjoyed his Sibelius recordings a great deal but without re-listening I can only be vague.


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## dsphipps100

Sibelius himself said that he "enjoyed" Paavo Berglund's conducting of his music. And since Simon Rattle has been mentioned in this thread, Rattle also considered Berglund an authority on Sibelius, having apprenticed under Berglund at Bournemouth.

Most people who are familiar with Berglund's three recordings of the Sibelius symphonies consider his cycle with the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra to be his best.

I spent a number of years ranking the Davis-Boston set as the best Sibelius, but when I discovered the Berglund-Bournemouth set a few years ago, I had to change my mind.









You can buy the 4-CD set from Amazon for as little as $15.00 (plus shipping).

http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Complete-Symphonies-Jean/dp/B0091JQH2Q/


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## Becca

AClockworkOrange said:


> I would have mentioned Barbirolli's Halle recordings on EMI but it has been a very long time since I actually sat down and listened to them, so I couldn't comment on them reliably. The last Barbirolli I listened to was Mahler's Ninth with the Berliner Philharmoniker and a recording of Elgar's 'Gerontious (Janet Baker is radiant) - both beautiful performances but neither relevant here. I know I enjoyed his Sibelius recordings a great deal but without re-listening I can only be vague.


It was only about a week ago that I was thinking about the Barbirolli set which I have and would like to hear again. The problem is that it is on vinyl, in storage and not accessible. I remember having a friend buy most of it for me during a trip to England back in my impoverished graduate student days! I did come across a live performance that he did of the 2nd in Cologne shortly before his death in 1970.


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## Becca

dsphipps100 said:


> Sibelius himself said that he "enjoyed" Paavo Berglund's conducting of his music. And since Simon Rattle has been mentioned in this thread, Rattle also considered Berglund an authority on Sibelius, having apprenticed under Berglund at Bournemouth.


From what I have seen, Sibelius must have said that to everyone who he met who had conducted his works!

As to Simon Rattle, he tells the story of how when Paavo Berglund would come to guest conduct the Birmingham orchestra, he would spend some time going through Rattle's Sibelius scores and annotating them - then telling Rattle after the fact!


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## StlukesguildOhio

I quite like both the Beecham...










... and Barbirolli...



















(My favorite set... on CD)

... as well as Karajan's... and in more recent sets, Paavo Berglund:


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## dsphipps100

Becca said:


> It was only about a week ago that I was thinking about the Barbirolli set which I have and would like to hear again. The problem is that it is on vinyl, in storage and not accessible. I remember having a friend buy most of it for me during a trip to England back in my impoverished graduate student days! I did come across a live performance that he did of the 2nd in Cologne shortly before his death in 1970.


I looked to see if a flac version is available for purchase/download, but unfortunately, the only way to get it here (I'm in the USA) is by purchasing the physical CD set.










Becca said:


> From what I have seen, Sibelius must have said that to everyone who he met who had conducted his works!


I've not heard that before. Who else did Sibelius say this of?


Becca said:


> As to Simon Rattle, he tells the story of how when Paavo Berglund would come to guest conduct the Birmingham orchestra, he would spend some time going through Rattle's Sibelius scores and annotating them - then telling Rattle after the fact!


That's hilarious. I wonder if Rattle started locking up his scores when Berglund came calling.


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## Becca

dsphipps100 said:


> I
> I've not heard that before. Who else did Sibelius say this of?


Thomas Beecham, Malcolm Sargent, Herbert von Karajan ... and I'm sure that I've also heard of one or two others


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## Pugg

If you have a spare minute left after all those advice, try Ashkenazy on DECCA and Bernstein on Sony :tiphat:


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## Guest

You might like to listen to this BBC R3 programme which compares recordings...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01wdkpq

I find I like all the versions I have for different reasons. Berglund/BSO; Davis/LSO Live; Karajan/BPO (80s); Vanska/Lahti


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## DeepR

MacLeod said:


> Vanska/Lahti


This was my first experience with the piece and I listened to it dozens of times. Now I'm having trouble with other recordings. Every minute difference I hear in other recordings puts me off. The Lahti recording is how it should be. So no, I can't really help, until I get over my "first recording syndrome".


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## Becca

DeepR said:


> This was my first experience with the piece and I listened to it dozens of times. Now I'm having trouble with other recordings. Every minute difference I hear in other recordings puts me off. The Lahti recording is how it should be. So no, I can't really help, until I get over my "first recording syndrome".


Mine was the Beecham recording which I still return to, but it wasn't difficult getting over that particular 'first recording' syndrome given the difference in audio quality from the late 1950s.

As a side note, yesterday I started doing some comparisons of the Sibelius 3rd and began with Berglund/Bournemouth and the last Davis/LSO and, at least so far, I found the Berglund a bit underwhelming. To be continued...


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## Steve Wright

Becca said:


> As a side note, yesterday I started doing some comparisons of the Sibelius 3rd and began with Berglund/Bournemouth and the last Davis/LSO and, at least so far, I found the Berglund a bit underwhelming. To be continued...


I'll be interested to know your findings, as 3 is a symphony of which I am very fond (hell, I'm fond of all of them. But always keen to champion the less-championed 3 and 6). 
I started out with Berglund/Bournemouth so that one is kind of imprinted on me now, but I might slightly prefer my subsequent acquisitions: Rattle, Kamu, Davis/Boston and, perhaps in particular, Ashkenazy. The latter has a nice spacious acoustic, wonderful brass - and the second movement is taken at slightly more of a clip than usual. Not sure what I prefer there yet, but it's a refreshing change.


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## kanishknishar

juliante said:


> Hi folks
> 
> I have just discovered Sibelius 7th and after 2 listens I feel it is a wonderful piece. I only have Rattle / BPO so was wondering if there are any other recommendations. Given the lack of love for Rattle I have sensed on this forum i expect there will be some alternative recordings preferred....! Many thanks.
> 
> (Interested on thoughts on this Rattle interpretation as well. I like it but it's all i know. I can imagine other conductors getting more depth and at times the sound is a bit less rich than it might be, possibly.)


Don't be surprised if no one praises Rattle's set or calls it magnificent. Rattle in general has a mixed reputation. Very rarely are his recordings referred to [notable example being his M10 and B9]. I don't know, he isn't much loved. Especially in TC.

When you're done with Rattle's BPO set, try his CBSO version too! See how you react to that.
I have another performance I'd like for you to try, PM me and I'll send it to you. [Not available on disc.]


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## Triplets

I had ordered the Bernstein Sony set a few weeks ago, and it arrived yesterday. I listened to the disc pairing 6&7 and have to say that I was very disappointed . He rushes through both pieces and seems to have no particular affinity for the Composers special sound world. I much prefer Vanska and Karajan and Azhkenazy in 7.


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## Steve Wright

Herrenvolk said:


> Don't be surprised if no one praises Rattle's set or calls it magnificent. Rattle in general has a mixed reputation. Very rarely are his recordings referred to [notable example being his M10 and B9]. I don't know, he isn't much loved. Especially in TC.


Yes, that seems to be true - why is this? Is Rattle seen as an over-mannered, over-interpretive conductor?
I have to say I like his CBSO Sibelius cycle, and since we're here I would put his Seventh as one of the highlights (along with, what, 3 and 4 perhaps. Not 5 and 6, which both _do_ seem too mannered to me - or perhaps they're simply too imprinted on me now, from others). 
I know David Hurwitz is very rude about Rattle's Seventh, calling it horribly turgid and overblown or somesuch. I think it works well, on its own terms.
Other Sevenths I enjoy are Ashkenazy, Karajan (DG) and Berglund/Bournemouth. In fact, I suppose I haven't yet heard a Seventh I didn't like. Isn't Ormandy's supposed to be one of the finest?


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## hpowders

juliante said:


> Hi folks
> 
> I have just discovered Sibelius 7th and after 2 listens I feel it is a wonderful piece. I only have Rattle / BPO so was wondering if there are any other recommendations. Given the lack of love for Rattle I have sensed on this forum i expect there will be some alternative recordings preferred....! Many thanks.
> 
> (Interested on thoughts on this Rattle interpretation as well. I like it but it's all i know. I can imagine other conductors getting more depth and at times the sound is a bit less rich than it might be, possibly.)


Karajan/Philharmonia, magnificent, but mono sound.

Ormandy/Philadelphia, magnificent too and nice analog stereo.


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## Becca

A post on another site brought up the question of the edition of the 7th that the conductor is using. Specifically it had been noted many years ago that there were differences between the standard published Wilhelm Hansen's edition and the parts which were owned by the Helsinki Philharmonic which had been corrected by Sibelius. In the 1970's, Hansen hired Paavo Berglund to create a critical edition of the 7th which was published in 1980. It is quite possible that Berglund had made many of the changes in his own Bournemouth recording as he was known to to do that.

More recently the Sibelius family donated all of Sibelius' manuscripts to the University of Helsinki and those became the basis of a complete set of critical edition scores done by a joint project of the National Library of Finland and the German music publisher Breitkopf and Hartel. That set is planned to run to 52 volumes with about 2 released per year. I understand that there are 25 volumes already available including the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 7th symphonies. I am not a musician or musicologist so I can't comment on the extent of the changes in these editions but my understanding is that they are noticeable. Indeed in 1970, Berglund had this to say in an published article...

_"Indeed the notes should be in order, but Sibelius himself was not at all accurate. […] It would be absolutely important and justified to make new editions of Sibelius's works. But the job feels so impossible, and is such a difficult task, that I do not know who would do it and how." _

As to which recordings use the new editions, it is probably that anything prior to 1980 does not use them (except possibly as noted above). Volume 12 of the complete Sibelius series by BIS, which has the symphonies, does use the JSW/B&H critical editions where available. It also includes an additional disc which contains some alternate versions of parts of the symphonies which were found in the manuscripts. Most notable of these are 2 alternate endings to the 7th symphony. I haven't heard them yet but intend to try to get hold of the recording.


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## Haydn man

I will add another mention for Vanska/Lahti and Davis/LSO live


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## Enthusiast

There are so many recordings of 7 that are wonderful. Barbirolli's with the Halle is special and for some reason reminds me that Sibelius liked his drink too much and that Barbirolli was also known to enjoy a jar or two. But if playing and recording are very important to you this might not be the best recommendation. The same applies to Rozhdestvensky (also wonderful). Karajan, Vanska, Davis (the LSO Live one is excellent but his 3 recordings are all quite different and yet worthwhile) and Ashkenazy are also very good ... and both Bernsteins and don't forget the one Maazel recorded with the Vienna Phil. I'm not saying you need them all but why not more than one? As for Rattle, I don't think I have heard it. In general I think him a reliable enough Sibelian but so much of his work sounds a little too fussy for me.


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## shomanca

Becca said:


> Thomas Beecham, Malcolm Sargent, Herbert von Karajan ... and I'm sure that I've also heard of one or two others


I believe that he said it about Ormandy as well


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## arpeggio

Last Saturday my wife and I heard the Marine Chamber Orchestra perform the _Seventh_. And it was a free concert.


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## keithjacksontucson

My favorite is the fairly recent Spano with the Atlanta Symphony on ASO
Also like Blomstedt and SFO. 
Hoping for Vanska Minnesota but nothing coming out of Minnesota since the strike was over


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## Pat Fairlea

Lots of interesting points here, but I will vote for Vanska & Lahti SO.


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## dieter

Steve Wright said:


> I'll be interested to know your findings, as 3 is a symphony of which I am very fond (hell, I'm fond of all of them. But always keen to champion the less-championed 3 and 6).
> I started out with Berglund/Bournemouth so that one is kind of imprinted on me now, but I might slightly prefer my subsequent acquisitions: Rattle, Kamu, Davis/Boston and, perhaps in particular, Ashkenazy. The latter has a nice spacious acoustic, wonderful brass - and the second movement is taken at slightly more of a clip than usual. Not sure what I prefer there yet, but it's a refreshing change.


Try the Sanderling: for me it;s the best


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## Pugg

keithjacksontucson said:


> My favorite is the fairly recent Spano with the Atlanta Symphony on ASO
> Also like Blomstedt and SFO.
> Hoping for Vanska Minnesota but nothing coming out of Minnesota since the strike was over


wrong thread please delete


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## realdealblues

There's lots of good 7ths. Beecham, Bernstein and Ormandy all come to mind. Segerstam, Maazel, Berglund, Davis all come to mind as well.


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## hpowders

The best 7th I have ever heard is the Ormandy/Philadelphia.

Second is Karajan/Philharmonia. A touch too slow, but epic.


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## Enthusiast

Vanska's first recording. Karajan (both). Bernstein (both). Rozhdestvensky. Maazel (VPO), Colin Davis (all 3). There are many other, too, but I couldn't live without these named. Sorry not to be very discriminating.


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## Merl

Another vote for Vanska.


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## mtangent

Another vote for Karajan's 80s dg recording. Sweet. 
And I'd second both the Sanderling and Ashkenazy.


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## Pat Fairlea

mtangent said:


> Another vote for Karajan's 80s dg recording. Sweet....


'Sweet' in what sense? I ask because that's about the last term I would apply to Sibelius 7.
Grand, dark, foreboding, even hindboding, but never sweet.


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## kanishknishar

Steve Wright said:


> Yes, that seems to be true - why is this? Is Rattle seen as an over-mannered, over-interpretive conductor?
> I have to say I like his CBSO Sibelius cycle, and since we're here I would put his Seventh as one of the highlights (along with, what, 3 and 4 perhaps. Not 5 and 6, which both _do_ seem too mannered to me - or perhaps they're simply too imprinted on me now, from others).
> I know David Hurwitz is very rude about Rattle's Seventh, calling it horribly turgid and overblown or somesuch. I think it works well, on its own terms.
> Other Sevenths I enjoy are Ashkenazy, Karajan (DG) and Berglund/Bournemouth. In fact, I suppose I haven't yet heard a Seventh I didn't like. Isn't Ormandy's supposed to be one of the finest?


And what do you mean by 'mannered' here? Artificial? Idiosyncratic? If it's the latter, Karajan's interpretations could be tagged as such too, correct?


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## LOLWUT

Bernstein with Vienna is the best tempo. Everything else is too fast, doesn't let the music breathe.


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## hpowders

"Sibelius 7"

What a great idea for a vanity license plate!

I will ask if my uncle Mario on Rikers Island can make me one.


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## Pugg

Another vote for Ashkenazy . 
And I'd second both the Karajan 80s DG recording


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## ViatorDei

And another for *Ashkenazy*. Perhaps not the most "authentic" interpretation (whatever that might mean), but I haven't heard another rendition that has the same magic that Ashkenazy's has.


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## GAJ

I've lost count of the number of recordings (and performances) of this from the first purchase on vinyl with LSO/Collins as a teen to the latest - LSO/Davis. 

I seem to place every new recording heard to the top of the list. Perhaps this is the result of the work being a personal favourite and/or the quality of the work itself motivating every conductor to do great things with it.

The problem of choosing one becomes more difficult when I go back to an earlier recording and this goes back to the No.1 spot!

So perhaps my pick is to the recording that has spent the longest time and most frequent returns to that No.1 spot .......
The 1968 DG recording with the Berlin PO/Karajan. It still makes my hair stand on end 45 years after I first bought it on vinyl (now CD). 

(This was my second purchase after the Collins.)


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## Guest

Pat Fairlea said:


> 'Sweet' in what sense? I ask because that's about the last term I would apply to Sibelius 7.
> Grand, dark, foreboding, even hindboding, but never sweet.


"Sweet" as in "sick", I think, though I young person might come along and put me right. It just means 'excellent', doesn't it?


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## JACE

My favorite Sibelius 7th recordings:
- Ashkenazy/Philharmonia 
- Barbirolli/Halle
- Ormandy/Philadelphia (specifically, the 1960/Columbia; I've not heard the RCA/1975)

I'd be hard pressed to choose just one from among those three.


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## Pat Fairlea

MacLeod said:


> "Sweet" as in "sick", I think, though I young person might come along and put me right. It just means 'excellent', doesn't it?


Oh dear, I need my Yoof Thesaurus. Ummm, well wicked, innit?


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## GAJ

Permission to add to the "sweetness" of the Sibelius 7 discussion. I would venture to suggest that the wonderful
intermezzo section that follows the second stormy trombone landmark contains the most deliciously sweet melody. This miraclous change in the flavour of the music occurs in just a few bars.


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## chalkpie

LOVE this piece more than pizza and spaghetti, and I love those too. 

Vanska (Lahti) is my go-to, but I also dig Segerstam, Saraste, and Jarvi.


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## JACE

chalkpie said:


> LOVE this piece more than pizza and spaghetti, and I love those too.
> 
> Vanska (Lahti) is my go-to, but I also dig Segerstam, Saraste, and Jarvi.


chalkpie, do you prefer Segerstam's cycle with the Helsinki PO or the Danish Radio SO?

I haven't heard either.


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## chalkpie

JACE said:


> chalkpie, do you prefer Segerstam's cycle with the Helsinki PO or the Danish Radio SO?
> 
> I haven't heard either.


Hi JACE - I only own the Helsinki PO set but I really like his approach, and the sound is warm, big, round, and inviting. Playing is also superb. His tempi can be on the broad side, but sometimes it just works well for this music, especially S7. I just listened to S7 performed by the NYP/Gilbert on Spotify and it was WAY too fast - no time to enjoy the scenery. Sometimes Finnish music performed by Finns just works beautifully, and I think this is the case with both Segerstam and Vanska.


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## Pat Fairlea

GAJ said:


> Permission to add to the "sweetness" of the Sibelius 7 discussion. I would venture to suggest that the wonderful
> intermezzo section that follows the second stormy trombone landmark contains the most deliciously sweet melody. This miraclous change in the flavour of the music occurs in just a few bars.


That's a really good point. Thank you.


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## Guest

chalkpie said:


> Hi JACE - I only own the Helsinki PO set but I really like his approach, and the sound is warm, big, round, and inviting. Playing is also superb. His tempi can be on the broad side, but sometimes it just works well for this music, especially S7. I just listened to S7 performed by the NYP/Gilbert on Spotify and it was WAY too fast - no time to enjoy the scenery. Sometimes Finnish music performed by Finns just works beautifully, and I think this is the case with both Segerstam and Vanska.


I "have" the HPO with Segerstam on Spotify and I really like it too. Tempos seem just right and the climaxes well worked.


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## JACE

chalkpie said:


> Hi JACE - I only own the Helsinki PO set but I really like his approach, and the sound is warm, big, round, and inviting. Playing is also superb. His tempi can be on the broad side, but sometimes it just works well for this music, especially S7. I just listened to S7 performed by the NYP/Gilbert on Spotify and it was WAY too fast - no time to enjoy the scenery. Sometimes Finnish music performed by Finns just works beautifully, and I think this is the case with both Segerstam and Vanska.





MacLeod said:


> I "have" the HPO with Segerstam on Spotify and I really like it too. Tempos seem just right and the climaxes well worked.


Thank you. Sounds like I should investigate. :tiphat:

By the way, chalkpie, I LOVE your avatar pic. That recording is definitely "desert-island music" for me!


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## Heck148

AClockworkOrange said:


> Leonard Bernstein with the New York Philharmonic is also a very enjoyable performance.


Bernstein/NYPO/CBS/'60s is my first choice. in fact Lenny's entire NYPO Sibelius Symphony set is outstanding..one of the few complete sets I recommend.

for #7, next to Bernstein - Maazel/VPO is good, and for a something very different - try Rozhdest'sky/USSR Sheet Metal Rippers Orchestra from 2/62 - the Trombone solo has to be heard to be believed!! edgy, blatty, huge vibrato, the guy is absolutely blowing his *ss off...it's wonderful!! :lol:


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## chalkpie

JACE said:


> Thank you. Sounds like I should investigate. :tiphat:
> 
> By the way, chalkpie, I LOVE your avatar pic. That recording is definitely "desert-island music" for me!


Do we know each other? Did you happen to run an Ives group and that great Ives website?


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## JACE

chalkpie said:


> Do we know each other? Did you happen to run an Ives group and that great Ives website?


Yeah. That's me.


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## chalkpie

JACE said:


> Yeah. That's me.


Great! I was very active on the old Ives Yahoo group - my name is Frank. Remember that great guy named Bob Zeidler? Your Ives site is still an amazing resource. I haven't been into Ives as much over the past few years, but he is still a top 5 composer for me.


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## Dirge

The rightly famous Koussevitzky/BBC SO account [HMV '33] is remarkable for the great internal energy, the teeming molecular activity, present throughout. It moves with the inevitable sweep of the changing of the seasons, full of the mundane little dramas of nature that are necessitated and set in motion by those changes. Here one can vividly imagine the scurrying activities of the year-round inhabitants of some great Northern forest as they make last-second preparations for the onset of winter. Koussevitzky craftily builds up to the various climaxes, gradually ratcheting up tension and anticipation without over-telegraphing what's to come. Only the constricted recorded sound puts a damper on things, not allowing the great trombone solos to bloom and make their full impact. (I haven't kept up with recent transfers, but I like the Pearl the best of those that I have heard.) 



 (unknown transfer)

I keep searching for a newer/better-recorded account of the Seventh that I like nearly as much as Koussevitzky/BBC SO, but I keep coming up dry. I have warmed to a couple of interesting alternatives that make for nice changes of pace, however …

Berglund/Bournemouth SO [EMI '72] is the most sinewy and linear account of the Seventh that I've heard. While listening, the ear naturally follows the various fibers/filaments as they are spun into a continuous musical yarn, their gradual overlapping and intertwining providing a sense of seamless continuity and evolution that makes other accounts sound downright episodic. What's more, these fibers/filaments are perfectly discernible without the slightest analytical highlighting; even the big trombone solos seem to magically emerge out of and then merge back into the orchestra, making their full effect without brash display. The performance is purposeful and climaxes are well built if not especially powerful, but energy and urgency aren't all that they could be-it certainly doesn't have the internal energy, the teeming molecular activity, of the great Koussevitzky/BBC SO account. Even so, the performance is so well spun and so seamlessly organic that it deserves a listen by fans of the Symphony. 




Mravinsky/Leningrad PO [Melodiya, live '65] is notable for the conductor's overarching conceptual grip on the elusive symphony, as he's able to logically relate and tie together the various sections of the work while imparting a compelling sense of sweep and momentum to the proceedings. If you tend to think that Fearless Leader … err, Mravinsky is as severe and implacable as he looks, you might be surprised by the touch of flexibility that he allows in this performance-just a touch, I repeat, but enough to stave off any sense of rigidity. The most famous/infamous aspect of the performance, however, is the love-it-or-hate-it solo playing of the trombonist, who produces a broad, ripe tone and huge, slowly wobbling vibrato that conjures up an all-too-vivid feeling of seasickness in some listeners. He's prominently balanced to boot, so you'll either have to flee the room with fingers jammed firmly in ear holes or remain seated and "take your vibrato like a man" (Charles Ivesky). I find his playing entertainingly eccentric and characterful and not entirely at odds with Mravinsky's elemental and un-prettified overall view the symphony, but many find it _way_ beyond the pale. The recorded sound is pretty good by 1965 Soviet-bloc standards.


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## Omicron9

Greetings.

- Davis/Boston Symphony
- Vänskä/Lahti SO:






Regards,
-09


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## GAJ

Your comments on the Mravinsky trombone seasickness, Dirge, strikes a resounding chord. It's the only version I've ever played the once! What a shame when I so admired the momentum he generated. I also agree on the special nature of the Koussevitsky and just wish I had not been so spoiled by the superior sound quality of more recent recordings.


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## Heck148

GAJ said:


> Your comments on the Mravinsky trombone seasickness, Dirge, strikes a resounding chord. It's the only version I've ever played the once! What a shame when I so admired the momentum he generated.


It sounds like the same effect of Rozh'sky's version with the USSR Sheet Metal Rippers Orchestra....trombone very loud, blatty, edgy, huge vibrato - but you have to remember - that's the style. They are not trying to sound like the NYPO of the London Sym. The horn players use vibrato [so do the Czechs, and the French] and the clarinets do also, or at least, they used to...
If you accept the fact that the style you are about to hear is nothing like you are used to hearing.....then much enjoyment can be derived - as you say, Mravinsky generates lots of momentum, intensity and energy...he was a real driver, and the LeningradPO was one of the world's greatest orchestras....but, they do sound different


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## Vaneyes




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## chalkpie

Getting to know Vanska's newer recording with Minnesota. So far, so good. Need more spins.


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## hpowders

I find the Eugene Ormandy/Philadelphia Orchestra performance the most satisfying.

Not happy with Karajan (too slow!) and C. Davis/BSO (not enough passion!)


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

I've had a mini obsession with Sibelius 7 lately. Berglund with Bournemouth SO, Vanska with Lahti SO and Leif Segerstam with Danish National SO are my current favourite. Slightly less I like Ashkenazy with Philharmonia and Davis with LSO.


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## bisque

I have way too many complete sets, and quite a lot of one-offs of the various symphonies, especially the fifth, my favorite. Of the sets, well, let's see: I thought the Segerstam Ondine set was pretty excellent overall, the Barbirolli is wonderful as is the Sanderling in slightly lesser sound, the mono Collins, which I find terrific, and I had a reel-to-reel transferred to CD of the Akeo Watanabe performances, which are wonderful. I've tried most of the others and they're hit and miss for me - Berglund's okay, I really don't like the Colin Davis (sorry) or the Maazel (sorry), the Vanska didn't really do it for me (sorry), and the Rozhdestventsky is just plain odd but worth hearing. 

My favorite fifth (I waffle, oh, yes, I waffle) is usually the 1959 Alexander Gibson, which I love both musically and sonically. I wish Tauno Hannikainen had done a complete set, and I certainly get some enjoyment out of the Von Karajan DG four through seven. 

Finally, someone asked about the Lintu - I got that Blu-ray set and I found it pretty compelling throughout - I don't know what I'd think if I were JUST listening, but the Blu-ray sound is unbelievably great and watching him conduct is fun and everything sounded pretty wonderful to my ears. For other one-offs, Monteux is very good and so is Ansermet. I've been going through the Storgards set, but it's merely okay, IMO.


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## hpowders

Stay away from Karajan/Philharmonia. Much too slow.

Sibelius gave Karajan the conducting green light. He should have listened to the Ormandy performance. Just right!


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## Brahmsian Colors

I like Vanska/Lahti Symphony Orchestra, with a superb Sibelius 6 on the same BIS cd, and Maazel's Vienna Philharmonic 7th, with an okay 5th on Decca lp.


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## Roger Knox

The Seventh is my favourite Sibelius symphony, ever since playing the double bass part in my university orchestra. I think of Sibelius as Mr. Transition (in my city we had a Mr. Transmission business.) Anyway the transitional ice-break passage in the Seventh is tremendous! I have the fine David/BSO set, haven't heard others yet.


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## Merl

I'm not a huge Sibelius fan but like the 5th and 7th a lot. I heard some recordings of the 7th that were very average , boring or did nothing for me (can't stand Rattle's cycle). Then I found Vanska's 7th and it made sense! Segerstam and Berglund (Bournemouth) are equally fine and Ashkenazy is hardly shoddy. I need to listen to Sibelius some more.


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## hpowders

For the Seventh, Eugene Ormandy/Philadelphia Orchestra is very fine.

For a bit more measured, deliberate performance, Herbert von Karajan with the Philharmonia Orchestra is still out there.

Worthy of note, von Karajan had the endorsement of Sibelius as the preferred conductor of his music.


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## Heck148

hpowders said:


> Worthy of note, von Karajan had the endorsement of Sibelius as the preferred conductor of his music.


Whoever came to town and visited Sibelius was his preferred conductor!! [until the next visitor] :lol::devil:


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## Triplets

Heck148 said:


> Whoever came to town and visited Sibelius was his preferred conductor!! [until the next visitor] :lol::devil:


The warmth of Sibelius recommendations depended upon the quality of the vodka supplied by the guest


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## Triplets

hpowders said:


> For the Seventh, Eugene Ormandy/Philadelphia Orchestra is very fine.
> 
> For a bit more measured, deliberate performance, Herbert von Karajan with the Philharmonia Orchestra is still out there.
> 
> Worthy of note, von Karajan had the endorsement of Sibelius as the preferred conductor of his music.


The Ormandy 7 is pretty darn good. I had ordered it from cdjapan a few years ago in a stunning sounding remastering but I believe the same remastering is available here now for probably much less than I paid. The Philadelphia Orchestra of that time was perfectly constructed for Sibelius music. It would have been great to hear a really idiomatic Sibelius conductor, such as Paavo
Berglund, lead them instead of the third rate Bournemouth Symphony of the day, but such is life.
Karajan was a very fine Sibelian . I don't remember his 7th but I have it on the shelves and will give it a spin today. His 4th on EMI is superb; absolutely terrifying.


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## Mal

Davis LSO Live is my favourite for 7, I heard it and had a "That's it! I need no other" reaction. Careful though, I think his 5 is awful! His 6, is also great... his 3 isn't bad (comes with 7...) but I prefer his earlier RCA performance with LSO.


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## Triplets

Mal said:


> Davis LSO Live is my favourite for 7, I heard it and had a "That's it! I need no other" reaction. Careful though, I think his 5 is awful! His 6, is also great... his 3 isn't bad (comes with 7...) but I prefer his earlier RCA performance with LSO.


I haven't heard the LSO Live 7, but I agree the 5, which I purchased, and 2, which I streamed, were awful, both the Barbican acoustics and the performances themselves


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## hpowders

Triplets said:


> The Ormandy 7 is pretty darn good. I had ordered it from cdjapan a few years ago in a stunning sounding remastering but I believe the same remastering is available here now for probably much less than I paid. The Philadelphia Orchestra of that time was perfectly constructed for Sibelius music. It would have been great to hear a really idiomatic Sibelius conductor, such as Paavo
> Berglund, lead them instead of the third rate Bournemouth Symphony of the day, but such is life.
> Karajan was a very fine Sibelian . I don't remember his 7th but I have it on the shelves and will give it a spin today. His 4th on EMI is superb; absolutely terrifying.


The Ormandy is my favorite performance of Sibelius 7. The Karajan is much slower, but he holds the line throughout. I prefer the Ormandy performance.


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## Mal

Triplets said:


> I haven't heard the LSO Live 7, but I agree the 5, which I purchased, and 2, which I streamed, were awful, both the Barbican acoustics and the performances themselves


The "Third Ear" reviewer reckons Davis, "is least effective in Sibelius' more traditional, romantic symphonies (1, 2, and 5), and superlative in the modern, innovative ones (especially 3, 4 and 7)." So with 2 and 5 you may have hit him at his very worst! I reckon it's Colin mostly at fault, I think the engineers have tamed the Barbican acoustics "enough" to make 6 and 7 a great experience.

Trivia question - does Colin hum more when he's struggling? The humming reaches "mad wasp" standard in 5 but is hardly noticeable in 6.


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## Triplets

Mal said:


> The "Third Ear" reviewer reckons Davis, "is least effective in Sibelius' more traditional, romantic symphonies (1, 2, and 5), and superlative in the modern, innovative ones (especially 3, 4 and 7)." So with 2 and 5 you may have hit him at his very worst! I reckon it's Colin mostly at fault, I think the engineers have tamed the Barbican acoustics "enough" to make 6 and 7 a great experience.
> 
> Trivia question - does Colin hum more when he's struggling? The humming reaches "mad wasp" standard in 5 but is hardly noticeable in 6.


Lol. I can't answer the mad wasp question. Perhaps he hummed louder as he aged because he couldn't hear himself?
I had Davis Boston cycle back in the day and those recordings were my introduction to most of the symphonies. I haven't listened to it much in the intervening years as I developed other favorites, but as I stated, what I did hear of the LSO Live series was pretty disappointing


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## Bill Cooke

I see that there's a lot of love for Ormandy/Philadelphia, but which recording is considered the best: 1960 or 1975?


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## Triplets

Bill Cooke said:


> I see that there's a lot of love for Ormandy/Philadelphia, but which recording is considered the best: 1960 or 1975?


I didn't know there was a 1975


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## Bill Cooke

Triplets said:


> I didn't know there was a 1975


Apparently so. One is on Sony Classical, the other on RCA. Both are included in the RCA Ormandy/Sibelius box set.


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## Mal

Just listened to Davis LSO Live 3 & 7 again and was blown away. It's wonderful! My best Sibelius disc. I was comparing it to his older RCA/LSO performance and found it much more dynamic and involving, in better sound.


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## Konsgaard

My favourite recording of the 7th is the Karajan on DG originals. I like how the different instruments blend together for a more homogeneous sound.


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## Judith

Only became familiar with this one recently after someone recommended it on Twitter but how I love it.


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## Larkenfield

A personal favorite recording by Karajan and the BPO of this magnificent, powerful, and elemental 7th Symphony (already mentioned by Konsgaard). I find it hard to imagine Sibelius ever topping this one with his 8th Symphony. Perhaps that's why he never completed it. I find the 7th awesome & sublime.


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## Kollwitz

After encouragement and recommendations in the Mahler/Sibelius thread, I've been listening to 7 quite a lot recently. Had previously found it interesting but hard to really understand and appreciate. Enjoyed Segerstam more than the Karajan BPO I'd been listening to before. Harding with the Mahler Chamber Orchestra was interesting too, though I think I prefer a weightier approach. Listened to a Mravinsky (1965) recording on youtube a couple of times recently and really like it. Any thoughts on it? Feels as though I'm starting to appreciate the richness of the symphony.


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## chalkpie

Kollwitz said:


> After encouragement and recommendations in the Mahler/Sibelius thread, I've been listening to 7 quite a lot recently. Had previously found it interesting but hard to really understand and appreciate. Enjoyed Segerstam more than the Karajan BPO I'd been listening to before. Harding with the Mahler Chamber Orchestra was interesting too, though I think I prefer a weightier approach. Listened to a Mravinsky (1965) recording on youtube a couple of times recently and really like it. Any thoughts on it? Feels as though I'm starting to appreciate the richness of the symphony.


I don't know the Mravinsky. Have you heard Vanka with both Lahti and Minnesota? Two of my absolute favorites along with Segerstam. Also check out Berglund, Jarvi, and Ashkenazy too. Once this piece really "bites", there is no looking back. Its not only a masterpiece by JS, but I feel its one of the greatest pieces of the 20th Century.


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## chalkpie

Mal said:


> Just listened to Davis LSO Live 3 & 7 again and was blown away. It's wonderful! My best Sibelius disc. I was comparing it to his older RCA/LSO performance and found it much more dynamic and involving, in better sound.


Heard this a while back and I do remember liking it - a revisit is in order. Cheers.


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## Vasks

Here's another lover of the Karajan DG. I've had that LP since it was first issued. Atmosphere galore!


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## Merl

Another vote for Karajan. As has been previously noted, Karajan's 'homogenised' approach doesn't always work in other works but for Sibelius 7 it's ideal.


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## Urban Strata

My favorite is Maazel with the Vienna Philharmonic, 1966. (Paired with a gorgeous Sibelius 5 in the original vinyl pressing.)

Generally, I think Sibelius 7 is lucky on record with many, many fine performances from Ashkenazi, Bernstein, Blomstedt, Davis, Karajan, Maazel, Segerstam, Vänskä, et al. I think the only Sibelius 7 recording I really didn't like was the Atlanta Symphony under Robert Spano.


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## les24preludes

Segerstam all the way for me, like the rest of Sibelius. Authentic Scandinavian vibe, and prefer his earlier slower versions with the Danish. Mravinsky if you need waking up from a bit of an afternoon doze. He de man in Shostakovich - has that i-n-t-e-n-s-i-t-y.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> I've had a mini obsession with Sibelius 7 lately. Berglund with Bournemouth SO, Vanska with Lahti SO and Leif Segerstam with Danish National SO are my current favourite. Slightly less I like Ashkenazy with Philharmonia and Davis with LSO.


I acquired Blomstedt's cycle with the SFSO after this post and my current favourite 7th is Blomstedt's. Combination of performance and sound is top notch.


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## perdido34

There is a recorded-in-concert version with Szell/Cleveland that is outstanding but hard to find.


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