# Why the atrocious subtitles on the Met player and in Live in HD productions?



## macgeek2005 (Apr 1, 2006)

I'm sure a lot of you know what I'm talking about. Even on DVDs the subtitles aren't always perfect, but on the Met player and in the Live in HD productions, they do this weird thing where they simplify the english greatly, don't translate literally enough, don't even translate everything, and sometimes even skew the meaning. Literally, even the most simple sentences, they can't seem to translate clearly. Why not? Why do they do this? What's so hard about saying "Water, how you wanted" when you see german "Wasser, wie du gewollt." Even on the DVD this isn't translated exactly as it should be I don't think, but in the recent Live in HD production, it was like "Here is the refreshment you wanted." I mean, seriously? Why? What are they doing? What is their goal?

edit: That line is from the first act of Die Walküre, for those who don't know.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Well, I think this is a problem in pretty much all translations in visual media.
Anytime I know well the original language of an opera, I'm appalled at the simplified and inaccurate translations.
For those languages that I don't know, I keep wondering what I'm missing.
Sometimes the singer sings a bunch of lines and the translation comes up with a couple of words, and one thinks, WTF? He said way more than that, what are they not telling us?
I don't know any Russian and I was wondering the same about the Met Eugene Onegin, then one day I watched it again with a Russian friend of mine, and surely enough, she was dismayed at the poor translation.
I don't think it's a Met problem, it's more like a universal problem.
It probably has to do with the people they hire for these translations - probably, just some bilingual person with a college degree, to save money. They won't hire major poets.
To translate some spectacularly literary rhyming libretti one would need an equally good poet (as skillful with language as the original author of the libretto) and bilingual to boot. These folks do exist but I imagine they are darn expensive to hire, so, we get the low-quality product instead.


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## macgeek2005 (Apr 1, 2006)

But the subtitles on DVDs are much better. For the 1990s Met Ring cycle for example.. are you saying maybe DG hired more qualified translators for their DVDs? And that when it's a live in HD or an online streaming thing, they go with something much less adequate because it's not an actual product they're printing?


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

I noticed the same thing when I watched La Fille du Regiment on Met Player. Compared to the Covent Garden dvd version, the subs are bizarre -- figurative when they should be more literal, and at other times obnoxiously literal when it should be more poetic. Of course, even the best subtitles are generally poor in quality, forgoing any sense of meter or rhyme. Good translation is an art and good translators are unfortunately all too rare; my guess is that in an effort to keep down costs, translations are done as quickly and cheaply as possible and lose any sense of poetry in the process.


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## macgeek2005 (Apr 1, 2006)

rgz said:


> I noticed the same thing when I watched La Fille du Regiment on Met Player. Compared to the Covent Garden dvd version, the subs are bizarre -- figurative when they should be more literal, and at other times obnoxiously literal when it should be more poetic. Of course, even the best subtitles are generally poor in quality, forgoing any sense of meter or rhyme. Good translation is an art and good translators are unfortunately all too rare; my guess is that in an effort to keep down costs, translations are done as quickly and cheaply as possible and lose any sense of poetry in the process.


It's not just not being poetic enough, they just put different words then what would be an accurate translation, when the original sentence is incredibly simple and easy to translate. I can't make sense of it. It's like they have an agenda to make sure that nothing gets translated over correctly. They can't even translate "I want to go" properly. I know all subtitles are a compromise, but these met player and live in HD subtitles are just something else. "Let's wander down through the green fields beneath the blue sky, towards your fathers castle" becomes "I want to go out into the beautiful spring and towards that dwelling there on the hill."

If I were doing the translation, it would take More effort for me to skew the translation to the degree they do, than it would for me to translate it accurately.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

macgeek2005 said:


> But the subtitles on DVDs are much better.


 Are they? I've seen numerous bad translations on DVD. I know Italian, French, Spanish, and Portuguese (these last two, not common operatic languages with a few exceptions, but the problem is the same in movies), and most translations from these languages into English are pathetic, regardless of the medium - MetPlayer, MetTitles, DVDs, etc. There are good exceptions but they are true exceptions, not the rule. I don't know any German or Russian or Czech (the other major operatic languages) but I bet I'm missing a lot because of it. As a matter of fact, I'm planning to learn German for this very reason. I studied two years of German in high school but this was almost 40 years ago so little is left. But because opera is these days my number one interest and I love Wagner, Richard Strauss, Berg, etc., I should learn German, to avoid this problem because translations suck!


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## macgeek2005 (Apr 1, 2006)

Well, there certainly is a huge difference in subtitle quality between the met player (and Live in HD) and the 1990s ring cycle DVDs. The met player is even the same exact video, but they have atrocious subtitles compared to what's on the DVD. I could type up a few scenes side by side to illustrate my point, but I don't think that's necessary. You know the terrible quality I'm talking about, and in this case the physical DVDs by DG do happen to have substantially better subtitles. I've found that a lot of DG DVDs of the met with levine have decent subtitles.

It still is mystifying to me why the subtitles would be as bad as they are. They literally are the equivalent of someone sitting there trying to paraphrase for you what's going on, haphazardly, so that you aren't totally lost.

Why can't they just (in the case of the ring at least) get their subtitles from here? http://www.rwagner.net/libretti/walkure/e-t-walk.html

It would be much better than what they're currently doing on the met player.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

macgeek2005 said:


> Why can't they just (in the case of the ring at least) get their subtitles from here? http://www.rwagner.net/libretti/walkure/e-t-walk.html
> 
> It would be much better than what they're currently doing on the met player.


I don't know, but could it be a question of copyrights?


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Almaviva said:


> I don't know, but could it be a question of copyrights?


That would suck. All the good translations are taken, so legally you're forced to come up with a bad one! :lol:


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

amfortas said:


> That would suck. All the good translations are taken, so legally you're forced to come up with a bad one! :lol:


 Or else you can choose to pay the copyrights for the use of the good translations. But for this, we need a strong DVD market.


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## sabrina (Apr 26, 2011)

Translation is always a problem, and not only for opera. Poems are impossible to translate. Even novels may lose their original scent.
In opera, it looks they are not paying attention. You don't need to be a poet for a good opera translation, but you have to be quite literate, and have a talent in languages. Motivation in doing your job is crucial.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

sabrina said:


> Translation is always a problem, and not only for opera. Poems are impossible to translate.


I used to think this but then read an amazing book by Douglas Hofstadter, Le Ton Beau de Marot. It's a 500+ page book that deals with (among many other things) the challenge of translating an obscure 18th century French poem into English. It's a fascinating book (as are all of his works, the most well known being the Pulitzer Prize winning Godel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid).

In any event, I've come to think that with a sufficiently talented translator, one who understands the poem thoroughly, and sufficient effort, a worthy translation is possible.


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## FragendeFrau (May 30, 2011)

I'm just going to chime in here with a minority vote. I'm the person who does NOT sit reading the program at a concert/recital. I'll glance over the libretto before hand, but my real concentration is on the singer/s.

Given that, I'm perfectly happy with a translation that just gives me the gist of what is being sung. I don't want it taking up too much real estate on the screen (example from ROH Carmen--in the final scene, Carmen and Don Jose are both on the ground after one of their skirmishes, and they look towards the arena, where we are given the translation of what is being sung 'in the arena'. It completely covers them up. Yes, it's important for the irony to know what the crowd is saying, but at the same time I want to see the singers. They should have moved the subtitles to the top that once).

Yeah I know. I'm a minority.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

FragendeFrau said:


> I'm just going to chime in here with a minority vote. I'm the person who does NOT sit reading the program at a concert/recital. I'll glance over the libretto before hand, but my real concentration is on the singer/s.
> 
> Given that, I'm perfectly happy with a translation that just gives me the gist of what is being sung. I don't want it taking up too much real estate on the screen (example from ROH Carmen--in the final scene, Carmen and Don Jose are both on the ground after one of their skirmishes, and they look towards the arena, where we are given the translation of what is being sung 'in the arena'. It completely covers them up. Yes, it's important for the irony to know what the crowd is saying, but at the same time I want to see the singers. They should have moved the subtitles to the top that once).
> 
> Yeah I know. I'm a minority.


Yes, sometimes subtitles are intrusive, and this is why I like them better when their are optional (when you can turn them off, which is usual possible with the newer DVDs). MetTitles is a good way to do with this - they can be turned off as well during the live performances, and they offer a choice of three languages (English, German, Spanish - it's unfortunate that they don't do French and Italian).

I like to either read the original libretto if I can (if it's a language that I know) or a good translation if one is available, at least once (I don't do this for *all* operas that I see - but I often do it for my favorite ones) because the poetry is part of the enjoyment. Then in subsequent viewing I may either turn off the subtitles or set them to the original language to better follow the sounds of the words.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

FragendeFrau said:


> I'm just going to chime in here with a minority vote. I'm the person who does NOT sit reading the program at a concert/recital. I'll glance over the libretto before hand, but my real concentration is on the singer/s.


Usually I there with you. For something like Handel, A quick look at the gist and then relax.

But last night at Rheingold the surtitles were sketchy and silly and I was glad I had the library's new Solti Ring libretto (and my glasses!)


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## FragendeFrau (May 30, 2011)

Well I have to say I am much more interested in this, now that I am listening to more opera on CD and looking at the vocal scores/libretti. In fact, I am annoyed.

I understand that the vocal score translation is a singing translation so they basically come up with something that is 'in the general area' of what is meant, but has the right number of syllables and is singable. OK, that's the way it has to be if you're going to sing it in English instead of the original.

But it irritates me no end that the separate libretti that I've read are also singing translations! WHY? why not just a good translation of what is in the original? I noticed this of course in the libretti for German operas, since I know German, but also in the libretti for La Traviata and Tosca, because I know a little Italian. For a libretto on the page, not sung, why not translate Alfredo's "Quando?" to Violetta as "When?" (can he bring the flower back) rather than "Really?" which makes zero sense in the context of her having just given him a flower. Yes I understand if you're singing that "when" doesn't have two syllables, but on the page...

GRRR...so now I join the chorus of those who want just a good translation of the words, not an attempt to fit the music.


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## AmericanGesamtkunstwerk (May 9, 2011)

I feel like a minority to say that I adored the Met's subtitles in the recent broadcast of Die Walküre. poetically and dramatically spot on, things that didn't say anything in other translations just struck me with a world of effectiveness. "holy is my hearth, holy it shall be to you" sounds like a dialogue from Tolkien, even Peckinpah, Faulkner, or McCarthy. "Leave his body where it lies, Valhal has no use for him" is only subtly different from other versions, but is a killer line. The whole translation, to me, could've been a script for a normal movie of spoken dialogue (not the case of other translations).
I'm surprised to see someone recommend the translation of the rwagner.net libretto. It was always so flat and useless to me.
Now I have nearly zero understanding of the german language proper, and I understand that to some people the accuracy and integrity in terms of what was going on in the original is important. But to me, I'll sacrifice that for poetic and dramatic integrity, even if it becomes its own thing. 

in the case of say Seville or Armida, I always thought the translations were well-executed. The way they would give one line in english for several hundred notes at times, I always assumed that it was because the actual translation would have been insultingly nonsensical, or at least redundant. (sorry Alma, my rossini appreciation amounts to my enjoyment of shameless pulp. dramatically at least. musically, is another thing).


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

AmericanGesamtkunstwerk said:


> (sorry Alma, my rossini appreciation amounts to my enjoyment of shameless pulp. dramatically at least. musically, is another thing).


But AGW, Rossini has good drama too. Have you seen Ermione?


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## AmericanGesamtkunstwerk (May 9, 2011)

Almaviva said:


> But AGW, Rossini has good drama too. Have you seen Ermione?


No, but I just looked it up, found a clip and a description. I'll actually keep my eye out for this and put it on the list. definitely seems like a horse of another color!


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

AmericanGesamtkunstwerk said:


> No, but I just looked it up, found a clip and a description. I'll actually keep my eye out for this and put it on the list. definitely seems like a horse of another color!


Yep, it is. It's actually my favorite Rossini opera. It's a truly neglected masterpiece.
Get this version, it is great:


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