# Keep your stylus clean!



## PeterKC (Dec 30, 2016)

How many of you have jumped into new vinyl? I still lay down my old records, and still buy them on ebay, but, was considering buying Christmas presents for my kids who have turntables. When I checked out the offerings on Reference of our local Symphony, the price point seemed a bit... high?
Let me know if you think new vinyl is as good as buying old vinyl. I would be very interested in your experience and opinionns


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

When you distinguish between old and new vinyl, do you simply mean brand new or recent releases?


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## PeterKC (Dec 30, 2016)

Any new classical releases.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I don't have experience with new classical releases on vinyl, but I'd say if you enjoy a performer, or your kids do, go ahead and buy it!


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I'd like to get Lang Lang's Goldberg Variations on vinyl.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

My 2¢ (and probably worth less than that), if somebody is "getting into vinyl" they obviously don't care about sound quality or keeping everything clean. Don't waste $40 on a 50-year-old Blue Note re-issue, just buy a handful of 50¢ records at Goodwill. They'll be THRILLED.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

NoCoPilot said:


> My 2¢ (and probably worth less than that), *if somebody is "getting into vinyl" they obviously don't care about sound quality or keeping everything clean*. Don't waste $40 on a 50-year-old Blue Note re-issue, just buy a handful of 50¢ records at Goodwill. They'll be THRILLED.


Huh?

I am deeply committed to vinyl, still holding onto the very first records I purchased as a youth, acquisitions made now well over 50 years ago, those recordings part of my collection of "some thousands" of vinyl discs in all genres and styles. Just today I played two Beethoven symphonies on vinyl (the Second and Third) from the 1975 box set of the complete symphonies of Beethoven as conducted by Sir Georg Solti and his Chicago Orchestra. Earlier this week I played several Louisville First Edition vinyl discs, again from purchases made nearly half a century ago. I also listened this week to a number of albums purchased new just this year, including jazz on Blue Note by Coltrane, Marcus Miller, the Geri Allen Trio, Ron Carter, and Stanley Turrentine, among others, as well as to classic rock from Bob Dylan, The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, and Bob Marley and the Wailers, among others. I also played through several albums released in the 1950s including collections by Frank Sinatra, Nat King Cole, and Dean Martin; these I picked up "used" at yard sales or from record resell shops. I will say, all of these vinyl records were in "very good plus" to "mint" condition, which means they played beautifully on my sound system. 

To suggest that a vinyl lover doesn't care about "sound quality" is a rather ridiculous comment. One reason we vinyl lovers love our vinyl recordings is precisely because of the "sound quality" available. And to say vinyl lovers don't care about "keeping everything clean" is to admit knowing little about so many hard-core vinyl lovers, who not only like clear sound and quiet backgrounds, but have also likely invested in an instrument of some sort to keep records clean. I know I have. It is precisely because I want the cleanest sound from my records that I keep them clean.

I would think that somebody who is getting into vinyl is likely to be doing so just because he or she has heard the sound of a well-cared-for vinyl record played on a quality playback system. Perhaps on mine. I know that folks have visited over the years and have listened to my rig playing a record and have been astounded by the quality of the sound. Not just the liveliness, the realness, the naturalness of the musical presentation ("It's like the musicians are right here in the room with us!", said one), but the lack of background noise, of ticks and pops and repetitive scratch noise which some folks, for some reason, seem to equate with vinyl records.

Sure, one can ruin a vinyl record so that it ticks, and pops, and scratches, and woofs ... but one can do the same thing with a CD disc so that it distorts sound, rat-a-tat-a-tats, or simply won't load at all in the machine. And I'm not exactly sure what people mean when they talk about "silent backgrounds" from CDs. I've heard a lot of "live" music in my time, music from venues such as symphony concert halls, churches, theatres, outdoor band stands, auditoriums, and bars ... and I cannot say that in any of these experiences I have known the music to come out of some sort of mystical "silent background." Still, I enjoyed many many of these live music concerts. 

A vinyl record, even one of the best recorded ones played on the highest grade of equipment, seems to impart its own ambience to the sound of the music. One may term that record groove noise, that subtle "something" that occurs when a record spins with a cartridge needle in its grooves. I do not find such a sound off-putting or annoying. Rather, it strikes me the same way as does hall ambience or the concert air environment. It's a something that adds a flavor or realness to the music. Of course, in most cases, my records have much less of this numinous "somethingness" than does the average "live" concert. It is often so unnoticeable as to perhaps provoke a comment such as "That background is so silent."

Sure, you may want to buy 50¢ records at Goodwill, and you may find some "real finds". I have over the years. But a true vinyl lover likely examines such albums carefully before purchase realizing that a disc that looks in bad condition likely _is_ in bad enough condition to perhaps cause a problem with playback, extraneous noise or even do harm to one's needle. All records, like everything else we encounter in our lives, are not equal. That being said, one might feel quite comfortable paying $40 or more for a vintage album, be it a Blue Note or something else, because of its reputation for that special "sound" we all crave to hear on our systems. Or for paying $40 or more for a newly released repress of a vintage disc. I suggest following reliable reviewers. Sometimes the older record features a better sound than the new. Sometimes not. Part of being one who gets into vinyl entails taking an interest in critical reviews of new and old releases. I've purchased many a disc after reading a recommendation from a source I've come to trust, and have largely been completely satisfied with the purchase.

One of the records I collect in multiple versions (releases) in my collection is the Miles Davis classic _Kind of Blue_. I have several dozen versions (of the hundreds, perhaps thousands available), from early black vinyl releases (1959) in both STEREO and MONO, through versions released in each decade following; versions on black vinyl, colored vinyl, CD, HDCD, and SACD. The most recent versions added to my collection are the two UHQR clear vinyl editions from Analogue Productions -- one in standard 33 1/3 rpm's, and the other a two disc set at 45 rpm. Prior to adding these two volumes to my _Kind of Blue_ collection I generally favored playing a certain Japanese pressed SACD copy for silver disc play and alternated between two newer vinyl releases, one a Classic Records HQ QUIEX SV-P reissue on 200 gram vinyl and the other a Mobile Fidelity 45 RPM Reissue, Remastered, Stereo, _180 Gram_ Special Edition. All three of these played especially strikingly well on my rig, which isn't to suggest that other versions did not sound good. But these three were exceptional as I favor hearing this music. But none of them held up equally to the two latest releases, the UHQR vinyl issues. I wish those were only $40 a disc, but I was willing to pay the asking price because I value my experience with vinyl. And anyone who may be new to the vinyl experience, one who may be just "getting into vinyl", should be aware that such behaviors as seeking out the best sounding versions of a disc is a reality that remains part of the overall experience of this hobby, or passion. I, for one, have no regrets. After all, the quality of the sound is one of the preeminent factors of enjoying listening to music, whether by way of live concert performances or by way of recordings.

Finally, if you have noise in your vinyl playback, perhaps your equipment needs servicing. I can attest to the fact that more than one person who has heard a vinyl disc played in my listening room on my equipment had initially believed I was fooling them and actually playing a CD. When I _did_ go to playing for them an actual CD of the same music they had heard via vinyl, they were generally amazed by how poorly it compared in_ realness_ to the living sound available from the vinyl disc. 

Just don't suggest that we vinyl fans obviously don't care about sound quality. Please. It simply isn't true.

-- Post script: If I have in my collection a CD whose sound I prefer over a vinyl version, I will certainly favor listening to the CD. Though I can off hand name a dozen or so vinyls which surpass the CD versions in my collection, I cannot at the moment think of one CD that I prefer over the vinyl. I will keep up the search. After all, I enjoy this sort of thing.


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## vincula (Jun 23, 2020)

I've never given up on vinyl and still buy records. I've got some of those exclusive Blue Note re-issues and some other gems -usually Birthday or Christmas gifts. Personally, I loathe the hype and the extortionate prices of recent re-issues. I normally buy records in charity shops or other records stores at very reasonable prices. They all go through my record washer, which it's part of the fun. It's like a ritual.

I do enjoy finding old classical editions. Came across an old Philips MInigroove with Van Beinum/Concertgebouw (Brahms no.2) last week -almost for free.

I still buy cd's too and I stream as well, especially as a resource to discovering new music. I'm genuinely thankful to this forum, where I get much inspiration and knowledge from. I hope I'm able to inspire some other members too.

Regards,

Vincula


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

I was raised on vinyl in the 1960s and began collecting classical around the Beethoven bicentennial 1970.

As other formats came I turned to tape, reel and CD and ran into an issue recently. I wanted to acquire a copy of an older recording of a couple piano concertos and found it impossible to find it in any physical format except new vinyl. There were no used CDs anywhere for a recording originally released in the 1980s.

This will be my first "new" vinyl purchase in ... I don't know .... maybe 45 years. This recording is said to be "wide groove" and I heard it on YouTube; it sounded better than I remember when I owned it on cassette.

Otherwise I still occasionally buy an old LP if the music never came back in another format but usually for purposes of converting it to CD either myslef or by paying someone to do it. I also buy CDs and sometimes downloads but, again, usually for purposes of burning to CD.

I like vinyl but its shortcomings outlasted its sound value in the past. In other words surface noise, needle rumble, skips, pops, etc. were worse than tape hum or CD shine or unnaturalness. Also you still cannot play an LP in the car or in any movable format.

I don't expect to play the new one too often; that's mostly what I have on LP -- music I play rarely or acquired out of nostalgia. I suppose this recording fits both criteria.

Incidentally ... regarding "Keep Your Stylus Clean" I bought a Japanese stylus for my turntable about 10 years ago. It was a specialty product and still going strong. It helped tracking quite a lot, diminished unwanted sound, and reduced skips. Turntable enthusiasts should look into upgrading their styluses/styli.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

People who love vinyl certainly love their vinyl. Who am I to bring up science?



Sonnet CLV said:


> A vinyl record, even one of the best recorded ones played on the highest grade of equipment, seems to impart its own ambience to the sound of the music. One may term that record groove noise, that subtle "something" that occurs when a record spins with a cartridge needle in its grooves. I do not find such a sound off-putting or annoying. Rather, it strikes me the same way as does hall ambience or the concert air environment. It's a something that adds a flavor or realness to the music.


Classic.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Science, such as the science of acoustics, proves quite fascinating. So many parameters to deal with when it comes to achieving an "ideal sound". Does one realize that, say, a Beethoven cello sonata played by the same cellist and pianist in different venues will sound different in terms of ambience, echo, sound stage, instrumental timbre .... The cello sonata heard performed in a marble bedecked church nave will certainly sound different from that performed in a small library with book lined walls, in a large theatre with thick draperies and padded seats, in a theatre filled with audience, or in an empty theatre, in an outdoor concert space with a concrete half dome, in a thoughfully engineered listening hall .... Everyone knows concert halls each have their own "sound" which is added to music when it is recorded. The choice of recording instruments alter sound, be it the microphone type or the tape/digital recorder. The quality of tape or vinyl used for recordings affects the sound ultimately produced. As does one's choice of a playback system, and the placement of that system in a particular room. Heck! Sound is altered as registered by one's own ears depending upon the position of those ears in reference to the source of the sound. Try this: listen to a recording (any way you like), then place your hands cupped behind your ears and note the change in the sound; push forward on your ear flaps a bit and note the change in the sound; push a little more forward and note the change; now, do all this while turning your body round to 45º, 90º, 180º ... and note the change in the sound. When one considers the sheer number of factors that affects the sound one hears from the initial source of musical production to the final interpretation of that music in one's brain, the variances involved seem infinite.

If one happens to have achieved a pleasing quality of music from his/her turntable-based sound system, I say "Bravo!" to the person. Science be d*****.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

PeterKC said:


> When I checked out the offerings on Reference of our local Symphony, the price point seemed a bit... high? Let me know if you think new vinyl is as good as buying old vinyl. I would be very interested in your experience and opinions


I'm convinced what's driving the resurgence of LPs is the good old "profit motive." Compact Discs are a dying / dead format, very few of them make back their production costs. These days downloads or streams make up the vast majority of music distribution (I hesitate to use the word "sales"), and the only way to monetize THEM is to sell advertising on the download platforms.

So, along come LPs. You've got your 60-year old Blue Note recordings which have long since earned back their production costs, and may(?) even be out of copyright now. You press up a few hundred LPs at a cost of $3-4 each, and sell the result for $40 or $50. It is, quite literally, the only way left for labels to make any money selling music -- so of course they're promoting the hell out of it.

That's my theory anyway.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Regarding "ideal sound" and "science be darned." Listening to music in your home is about so much more than just the music, there's the experience of where you sit and what you do while listening. There's the experience of handling and re-reading the cover (unless you're streaming). There's the experience of appreciating or cursing your stereo. There is the cat on your lap or the baby crying upstairs 

However you enjoy your music is fine, there is no right or wrong. You acknowledged that LPs add the background noise of the needle scraping vinyl -- good on you for being honest (unlike some others). If you like that sound more power to you.

I'll be honest and admit I sometimes miss the background noise too. When switching inputs on the receiver, from streaming to CD, I cannot tell if I have the controls set correctly. The "inky blackness of silence" gives me no warning if I have the volume set too high, and many's the time I've scared the bejesus out of myself when the first note hits.


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## Bkeske (Feb 27, 2019)

Listening to Hilary Hahn Paris right now. 45 rpm dbl LP set. Amazing sound quality vs my old stuff.

That said, I have bought, and continue to purchase old classical LP’s. Some, especially Philips, much Columbia Masrerworks, Angel, Epic, DECCA/London, most Deutsche Grammophon (inconsistent), EMI/His Masters Voice, and most all Мелодия, Hungaroton, and Supraphon can sound fantastic. I have many other boutique smaller labels, and many of those are incredible as well. And the nice thing is, most old classical LP’s were well taken care of, as long as an old worn conical stylus didn’t damage the grooves.

That said, the new classical vinyl I have is simply better mastered, mixed, cut, and pressed overall. I do not have any, but know a couple folks who have purchased the Berlin Philharmonic self-releases on vinyl, and am told they are superb.

But, I do not have a ton of new vinyl as it can be so expensive vs some of the great old pressings still available for a very reasonable cost.

So yes, generally, sonically, new vinyl pressings are overall better in an audiophile sense, but there are some real gems from the 60’s - 80’s as well. Even the digitally recorded/mastered 80’s stuff can be very good, I.e. Telarc, and others.

I play vinyl probably 95+% of the time, and it just sounds real to me, not ‘static’, it moves, it breaths, it it lifelike.

And I see no reason not to continue purchasing vinyl, and may start taking a crow bar to my wallet and get more new releases, when available. And that is an issue.


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