# Vincent Persichetti



## hpowders

A very underrated 20th Century Composer.
I recently sampled his complete piano sonatas and came away impressed.
Eagerly awaiting delivery, so I can play all of them complete.
In 2008, four critics of Fanfare picked the new recording of Persichetti's Piano Sonatas for the "Want List" honors.
Soon it will be mine!


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## starthrower

Nice conversation here with the late composer.


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## hpowders

starthrower said:


> Nice conversation here with the late composer.


Yes! David Dubal takes me back to my WNCN/NYC days. Now WNCN, 104.3 FM is just another hard rock station.
The Philadelphia Orchestra used to play an occasional Persichetti symphony.
Thanks for this! Fabulous interview!!!


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## Richannes Wrahms

"Twentieth Century Harmony: Creative Aspects and Practice" is probably the best practical and systematic book on the subject. But I still can rarely grasp many of his compositions...


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## hpowders

Many of his 12 piano sonatas are easily approachable.


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## millionrainbows

Yes, he's one of the most important American composers. The Piano Sonatas (2-CD) is an excellent way in.


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## hpowders

I'm working my way through them. So much variety! A feast for "modern" ears. You want atonal. Check! You want tone rows. Check! You want lyrically accessible. Check!


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## millionrainbows

His *Complete String Quartets (Centaur) *are killer, as well. The cover photo by itself is worth having. Interesting how he uses different methods throughout each one. He wrote fugues as well as anybody.


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## Vasks

Met him once when I was a fledgling composer...LOL many years later I'm still classified as "emerging".

Anyway his best piece of advice he gave me was to keep my pitch selection varied. Keep the pitch palette fresh.

I thought I once read that he often composed while driving on the Jersey Turnpike from home (Philadelphia) to work (NYC). If true, it's a miracle he never had a car accident


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## hpowders

The NJT was probably a lot less less crowded at that time.

Glad to hear you met him.


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## arpeggio

When I was an undergraduate Vincent Persichetti came to our school to particiapate in a contemporary music festival.

At a lecture he asked for three random notes from the audience. He then improvised a piece for piano based on those three notes.


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## hpowders

Ahhh... the great musical mind. Where does it come from? The ability to improvise with notes like I can with words.
Why was I not born with this gift!!!


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## hpowders

For the last 8 days, have been studying the first 6 of Persichetti's piano sonatas and after familiarizing myself with his brilliant musical language, can now say I prefer this modern sound to all others. Makes me smile.


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## millionrainbows

I agree, hpowders; Persichetti has a vitality, a freshness to his sound. Extremely confident and self-assured. I'm listening to his Piano Concerto, with Robert Taub on piano (Check out his Babbitt and Beethoven cycle, with book), Riccardo Muti, Philadelphia Orchestra (New World).

Persichetti is an extremelt thorough musical thinker. Here are the chapter titles of his book Twentieth Century Harmony:

Intervals; Scale Materials; Chords by Thirds; Chords by Fourths; Added-note Chords; Chords by Seconds; Polychords; Compound and Mirror Harmony; Harmonic Direction; Timing and Dynamics; Embellishment and Transformation; Key Centers; Harmonic Synthesis.

Persichetti, as is stated in the book's title, is a "harmonic" composer, and to that end, can be said to be "tonal" in the very general sense of the term. 
A harmonic approach, being based on harmonic models and the way our ears hear, _implies _a tonal hierarchy, or as the model is built, a "fundamental" tone with weaker, higher-pitched overtones which are fractional parts of the fundamental, which can be considered as "1". 
Any kind of harmonic music is, in a general sense, based on the same model that traditional tonality is built on, except that in traditional tonality, the horizontal "function" of chord progressions is based on this model as well, which creates a more rigidly-structured system. 
With a general "harmonic" conception and handling of materials, the way Persichetti masterfully handles them, the result is a "tonal" music which makes sense to the ear, has its own musical logic, and is full of many more possibilities than traditional tonality is capable of. I see it as a natural progression of tonality, and it shows the myriad possibilities of harmonic music; music which is also based on "modernist" ideas of interval projection and cycling, mirror forms, symmetries of the 12-note octave, motivic development, local tone-centers, and so much more.
And with a master like Persichetti, the result for the listener is truly "ear candy," which titillates the ear, and challenges the intellect. It's wonderful stuff, and I think that Persichetti will emerge as a new icon for the post-modernist era of composers, especially with the release of this wonderful 2-CD set of his complete Piano Sonatas on the New World label.


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## norman bates

millionrainbows said:


> I agree, hpowders; Persichetti has a vitality, a freshness to his sound. Extremely confident and self-assured. I'm listening to his Piano Concerto, with Robert Taub on piano (Check out his Babbitt and Beethoven cycle, with book), Riccardo Muti, Philadelphia Orchestra (New World).
> 
> Persichetti is an extremelt thorough musical thinker. Here are the chapter titles of his book Twentieth Century Harmony:
> 
> Intervals; Scale Materials; Chords by Thirds; Chords by Fourths; Added-note Chords; Chords by Seconds; Polychords; Compound and Mirror Harmony; Harmonic Direction; Timing and Dynamics; Embellishment and Transformation; Key Centers; Harmonic Synthesis.
> 
> Persichetti, as is stated in the book's title, is a "harmonic" composer, and to that end, can be said to be "tonal" in the very general sense of the term.
> A harmonic approach, being based on harmonic models and the way our ears hear, _implies _a tonal hierarchy, or as the model is built, a "fundamental" tone with weaker, higher-pitched overtones which are fractional parts of the fundamental, which can be considered as "1".
> Any kind of harmonic music is, in a general sense, based on the same model that traditional tonality is built on, except that in traditional tonality, the horizontal "function" of chord progressions is based on this model as well, which creates a more rigidly-structured system.
> With a general "harmonic" conception and handling of materials, the way Persichetti masterfully handles them, the result is a "tonal" music which makes sense to the ear, has its own musical logic, and is full of many more possibilities than traditional tonality is capable of. I see it as a natural progression of tonality, and it shows the myriad possibilities of harmonic music; music which is also based on "modernist" ideas of interval projection and cycling, mirror forms, symmetries of the 12-note octave, motivic development, local tone-centers, and so much more.
> And with a master like Persichetti, the result for the listener is truly "ear candy," which titillates the ear, and challenges the intellect. It's wonderful stuff, and I think that Persichetti will emerge as a new icon for the post-modernist era of composers, especially with the release of this wonderful 2-CD set of his complete Piano Sonatas on the New World label.


it seems right my alley. I've listened to the first piano sonata, is there any connection between Persichetti and Hindemith?


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## Vasks

norman bates said:


> is there any connection between Persichetti and Hindemith?


Not really. With Hindemith you get several style changes from the very early pieces being tonal, to the next phase being almost atonal, to his finally settling down to a free tonality where he anchors each movement to a specific chord/key but allows himself in between each arrival of that anchor to float freely chromatically.

Persichetti's style changes are not so obvious. He always had a tendency to be a mix of pandiatonic, polytonal and loosely atonal. And while he eventually may arrive at a final major or minor tonic chord; unlike Hindemith there is no need to keep returning to one specific chord/key.

In addition Hindemith more often applied classic structures to his works ,where as Persichetti's pieces are frequently much more free in design.

Do they sound similar to each other? Yes, here and there, but for the most part no.


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## norman bates

Vasks said:


> Do they sound similar to each other?


Never heard before Persichetti's music, I've only heard one time his first piano sonato and the first connection I've thought is with certain things of Hindemith (like his piano sonatas and his kammermusik). Maybe it's the harmony, maybe the rhythms. But it's perfectly possible I'm wrong, it's just a first impression.


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## hpowders

The first sonata is expressionistic. Sonatas 2 through 10 are tonal and highly approachable. 11 is atonal. 12 uses Perischetti's "mirror" technique where one hand plays a mirror image of notes of the other hand.
I know the sonatas pretty well at this point in time.


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## millionrainbows

norman bates said:


> it seems right my alley. I've listened to the first piano sonata, is there any connection between Persichetti and Hindemith?


It could be said that, in a very general way, they are both "harmonic" composers, and use harmonic structures and devices derived from tonality. But I'd say Persichetti is more adventurous. I think if you like Hindemith, you could handle Persichetti.

I haven't read Hindemith's harmony book; I'd like to have it. Supposedly, he bases some of his ideas on the overtone series.


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## millionrainbows

hpowders said:


> The first sonata is expressionistic. Sonatas 2 through 10 are tonal and highly approachable. 11 is atonal. 12 uses Perischetti's "mirror" technique where one hand plays a mirror image of notes of the other hand.
> I know the sonatas pretty well at this point in time.


Have you got the scores? Do you play them? Just curious. If you do, wow!


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## Vasks

millionrainbows said:


> I haven't read Hindemith's harmony book; I'd like to have it. Supposedly, he bases some of his ideas on the overtone series.


I have both the Hindemith and the Persichetti....and yes, I've read them


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## hpowders

millionrainbows said:


> Have you got the scores? Do you play them? Just curious. If you do, wow!


No and no. I've listened intensely for 3 weeks. Nothing but these 12 sonatas. It's been nice. Nine of them are delightful.


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## millionrainbows

The piano sonatas is a great 2-CD set. I highly recommend it to anyone. It's nice to hear that you are totally immersed in these. I like to hear of intensity like that. I think I'll get the sheet music just to "fetish" it.


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## hpowders

millionrainbows said:


> The piano sonatas is a great 2-CD set. I highly recommend it to anyone. It's nice to hear that you are totally immersed in these. I like to hear of intensity like that. I think I'll get the sheet music just to "fetish" it.


Thanks. I have issues with the 1st, 11th and 12 sonatas, but like the others very much.


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## arpeggio

*Persichetti String Quartets*

In another thread there were remarks concerning Persichetti _String Quartets_. He composed four.






​
See for more information: http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Drilldown?name_id1=9340&name_role1=1&bcorder=1&comp_id=245990


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## hpowders

arpeggio said:


> In another thread there were remarks concerning Persichetti _String Quartets_. He composed four.
> 
> View attachment 35801​
> See for more information: http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Drilldown?name_id1=9340&name_role1=1&bcorder=1&comp_id=245990


Oh wow! Thanks. I didn't know.


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## millionrainbows

*Vincent Persichetti, Seventh Symphony (Liturgical), op. 80. *Although Persichetti did not want to admit it, his music is infused with a spiritual awareness, and at the time of his death was working on the second volume of his* Hymns and Responses for the Church Year. *This symphony is essentially a one-movement work. Full of dissonance, restlessness, and rhythmic vitality, it shows a a diversity, not unlike the man himself, who refused to be pigeonholed into any particular religious ideology. Masterfully crafted, it is always a pleasure to hear an American master at work. Oh, BTW, he was a good teacher, too, and his students included *Philip Glass *and *Steve Reich.*


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## hpowders

You mean he didn't teach Lang Lang?


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## hpowders

arpeggio said:


> In another thread there were remarks concerning Persichetti _String Quartets_. He composed four.
> 
> View attachment 35801​
> See for more information: http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Drilldown?name_id1=9340&name_role1=1&bcorder=1&comp_id=245990


I researched it and it's been said they are among his least accessible works.


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## arpeggio

*New Persichetti CD*

I just received an announcement of a new Persichetti CD: http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp;jsessionid=533177589D87F4F1D89F5F193BFC7959?album_id=1085986

Just went on my wish list.


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## hpowders

I'm liking those 9/12 Persichetti piano sonatas more than ever. They put a smile on my face every time!


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## hpowders

arpeggio said:


> I just received an announcement of a new Persichetti CD: http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp;jsessionid=533177589D87F4F1D89F5F193BFC7959?album_id=1085986
> 
> Just went on my wish list.


Played the samples on Arkiv. Similar style to his neo-classical piano sonatas that I love. I'm getting it. Thanks!


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## arpeggio

*What the????*



hpowders said:


> I researched it and it's been said they are among his least accessible works.


I normally avoid making statements like this because I have learned that musical tastes are very subjective but who said these works are unaccessible? I am going to break one of my civility rules and flat out state that whoever did say this must be a real stuff shirt.

The _First_ has a few gnarly sections in it.

The _Second_ and _Third_ are very accessible. In many places the _Second_ sounds like Roy Harris.

The most obtuse is the _Fourth_. It is still more accessible than Boulez or Schoenberg.


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## hpowders

arpeggio said:


> I just received an announcement of a new Persichetti CD: http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp;jsessionid=533177589D87F4F1D89F5F193BFC7959?album_id=1085986
> 
> Just went on my wish list.


I just ordered this a moment ago. I'll just deduct $11.75 from my next mortgage payment.

I found the excerpts irresistible, mostly in his accessible neo-classical style.

Thanks for the heads up!!!!


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## hpowders

arpeggio said:


> I normally avoid making statements like this because I have learned that musical tastes are very subjective but who said these works are unaccessible? I am going to break one of my civility rules and flat out state that whoever did say this must be a real stuff shirt.
> 
> The _First_ has a few gnarly sections in it.
> 
> The _Second_ and _Third_ are very accessible. In many places the _Second_ sounds like Roy Harris.
> 
> The most obtuse is the _Fourth_. It is still more accessible than Boulez or Schoenberg.


Thanks. Haven't decided yet on this one.


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## Vasks

Believe it or not!!!

I have had a 2 LP set of Persichetti's 4 string quartets made by the Arizona State University's "New Art String Quartet" for many years (produced by the university in 1976). And while I have never found them to be great, I've always liked them. I'll give #4 a spin on Friday and report my reactions.

Stay tuned


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## millionrainbows

Vasks said:


> Believe it or not!!!
> 
> I have had a 2 LP set of Persichetti's 4 string quartets made by the Arizona State University's "New Art String Quartet" for many years (produced by the university in 1976). And while I have never found them to be great, I've always liked them. I'll give #4 a spin on Friday and report my reactions.
> 
> Stay tuned


Give us a scan of the cover, if possible. Apparently, this LP never got put on to CD.


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## millionrainbows

I'd say that, objectively, Pesichetti's music is, by nature, accessible to any set of ears, since it is 'harmonic' music, based on the way our ears hear. Whether or not the brain behind those ears chooses to resist or to follow is quite another matter. In fact, I saw a pair of ears walking down the street yesterday, dragging a bloody, kicking, screaming brain behind them. I think both ears were somewhat embarrassed.


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## millionrainbows




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## Vasks

So I listened to the Fourth Quartet today. It starts off quietly with very dissonant harmonies (what we theory people call minor seconds) and harmonics with no resemblance of melody. This then moves to quasi-melodic solo instrument-featured passages then on to the first major section where the minor seconds are replaced with expanded dissonances like major 7ths & minor 9ths. But once we get to past the halfway mark a less stringent type of harmony prevails for a nice scherzo-like section followed by a warm, rich semi-chorale passage that will appeal to many.

In actuality this piece is less harsh than Bartok's late quartets, but whereas Bartok might be so, at least you can follow Bela's ideas more easily than Vincent's. Too many times this morning I'd be asking myself:"_where did that idea come from_"?


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## millionrainbows




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## hpowders

A very nice approachable piece.


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## hpowders

Got the Persichetti works for violin and piano on Naxos.
Hasn't hit me like the piano sonatas. I'll listen some more, of course.
The Sonatinas for piano are charming little works, though.


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## Guest

I wasn't quite ready to commit to a blind buy, but I downloaded the Persichetti sonatas today, finally caving to hpowders' overwhelming fanboyism 

We'll see if the Persichetti cult has any validity to it.


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## hpowders

I don't need your validation to tell me what I already found out for myself after weeks of study, as I consider myself a sophisticated listener and trust my own judgment, but I hope you enjoy them anyway.


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## Vaneyes

A few words about this three-faced composer, fusing classical, jazz, and pop.

I think the latest Naxos with Violin & Piano is some of Persichetti's best for my ears. Good playing, good sound, too. As a whole, I prefer his Piano Sonatinas over the Piano Sonatas. For the latter, the final two.

Re String Quartets, divided. Earlier 1 & 2 are vanilla. 3 & 4 approach tightroping.

Re orchestral, it doesn't draw me as much as the aforementioned, though the Muti/Dutoit issue was/is a decent representation. :tiphat:


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## arpeggio

*Attack of the Band Junkie.*

I am sadden that I would have to be the one to mention that Persichetti is one of the finest band composers of the twentieth century. (Shows you how low of an opinion many of the classical music world think of band music.)

I have performed several of his works including the _Pageant_ and _Psalm_ for band.

Many consider his _Symphony Number Six for Band_ to be a masterpiece.

The same lecture I attended where he improvised the piano sonata Persichetti mentioned how much he enjoyed composing for band.

(Note: There are plenty examples of his band music on You Tube. I found over twenty samples of the _Symphony_. I am currently listening to the classic recording with Fennell and Eastman. According to Archive Music there are thirteen recordings of the _Symphony_. More recordings than of his other Symphonies put together. There are twenty-three recordings of his other band works. His band music are his most popular most frequently recorded works. The United States Marine Corps Band will be performing one of his works next month.)


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## hpowders

I mentioned it somewhere, probably on another thread that Persichetti is well know for his band compositions.


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## millionrainbows

arpeggio said:


> His band music are his most popular most frequently recorded works. The United States Marine Corps Band will be performing one of his works next month.)


That's the best reason I've heard yet to join the Marines. For a dilettante like me, I mean.


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## hpowders

By the way, I posted a YouTube performance of Persichetti's 9th Piano Sonata on that thread "weekly discussion of a classical piece" or whatever it's called. It's a 9 minute gem!


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## hpowders

Vincent Persichetti's Piano Sonata #9. Geoffrey Burleson, piano.
This concise 9 minute work follows my credo: Keep it pithy!


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## millionrainbows

Thanx for that clip, hpowdwers. This reminds me, in the opening theme chord voicings, of some Hindemith I've heard. But after that, the similarity fades.


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## arpeggio

*Persichetti Website*

One of Persichetti's publishers, Theodore Presser, maintains a great webpage for him: http://www.presser.com/Composers/info.cfm?Name=VINCENTPERSICHETTI#Works

Interesting like Schuman and Mennin he has withdrawn his first two symphonies.


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## hpowders

millionrainbows said:


> Thanx for that clip, hpowdwers. This reminds me, in the opening theme chord voicings, of some Hindemith I've heard. But after that, the similarity fades.


You are certainly welcome! I truly love that 9th sonata. he says it all in 9 minutes, though I do wish the touching slow movement was expanded a bit past one minute!! Even I could spare an extra 2 minutes or so!


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## hpowders

It's been a while, so it's time to listen once again to Persichetti's 12 piano sonatas. I favor 9 of them. Perhaps this time around, several more can join them.


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## Vasks

While the post below is more about me than him I couldn't help myself to share this after listening to an hour's worth of Persichetti this morning.

When I was a freshman, our university had him as a guest composer for a new music festival. We had a student composers' recital that had works of say 7-8 students including a piece of mine for violin & piano (_a work long since destroyed as juvenilia_). After each piece was performed, Persichetti would comment. Upon mine being done, he had a goodly number of suggestions like avoiding "this" or considering doing "that". All of which I took to heart being that he was a composer of great stature. Once the recital was over, a number of us went across the street to our music school's favorite restaurant hangout. While there my composition professor, popped in and took me aside. He wanted me to know that after the recital, Persichetti quietly told him that of all the student composers, it was my work that demonstrated the strongest talent. Well, that made my day! (or should I say life).


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## millionrainbows

That's a great story, and what a send-off for a composer!


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## ClassicalMaestro

Vasks said:


> Met him once when I was a fledgling composer...LOL many years later I'm still classified as "emerging".
> 
> Anyway his best piece of advice he gave me was to keep my pitch selection varied. Keep the pitch palette fresh.
> 
> I thought I once read that he often composed while driving on the Jersey Turnpike from home (Philadelphia) to work (NYC). If true, it's a miracle he never had a car accident


I used to drive the Turnpike and the Parkway everyday. I don't miss NJ one bit.


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