# Andre Previn ! A Crossover Artist ?



## jojoju2000 (Jan 5, 2021)

Ever since I posted that thread about John Williams; I thought over and over again about this topic; and then I realized that i forgot about Andre Previn ! Yes ! He was also a Film Composer; but he left the Film world in the late 60s when the film world went into popular music if that makes any sense. He then went straight into Classical music compositions. 




Interesting enough; Previn was very good friends with.... guess who ? John Williams. From what I read, Previn was a strong proponent of Williams's music, concert works and film scores in the concert hall. Previn and Seiji Ozawa. Those two guys really were the first ones to push Film Scores out there I think.


----------



## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

I think there was a long period when the glasses completely took over Andre Previn 

But he was a good jazz & classical pianist, composer, and conductor. I think a lot of his compositions haven't been recorded, and some of the works no doubt strike a more serious note, given the amount of them (from Wiki ):

"_André Previn left two concert overtures, several tone poems, 14 concerti, a symphony for strings, incidental music to a British play; a rich trove of chamber music (six violin sonatas, other scores for violin and piano; sonatas for bassoon, cello, clarinet, flute and oboe, each with piano; a waltz for two oboes and piano, three other trios, a string quartet with soprano, a clarinet quintet, a quintet for horn and strings, a nonet, a so-called Octet for Eleven, and three works for brass ensemble); several works for solo piano; dozens of songs (in English and German); a monodrama for soprano, string quartet and piano (Penelope, completed just before he died); a musical each for New York and London (Coco and The Good Companions); and two successful operas._


----------



## jojoju2000 (Jan 5, 2021)

joen_cph said:


> I think there was a long period when the glasses completely took over Andre Previn
> 
> But he was a good jazz & classical pianist, composer, and conductor. I think a lot of his compositions haven't been recorded, and some of the works no doubt strike a more serious note, given the amount of them (from Wiki ):
> 
> "_André Previn left two concert overtures, several tone poems, 14 concerti, a symphony for strings, incidental music to a British play; a rich trove of chamber music (six violin sonatas, other scores for violin and piano; sonatas for bassoon, cello, clarinet, flute and oboe, each with piano; a waltz for two oboes and piano, three other trios, a string quartet with soprano, a clarinet quintet, a quintet for horn and strings, a nonet, a so-called Octet for Eleven, and three works for brass ensemble); several works for solo piano; dozens of songs (in English and German); a monodrama for soprano, string quartet and piano (Penelope, completed just before he died); a musical each for New York and London (Coco and The Good Companions); and two successful operas._


It's interesting to note that for many many years, Previn tried to get John Williams to display some of his more experimental works, and yet... Williams refused because he thought his works weren't good enough, but it was Previn and Japanese American Conductor Seiji Ozawa who during the 1980s and 90s, promoted Wiliams's Music through Ozawa's Tenure at the Boston Symphony Orchestra, and Previn's work in Europe. That's what I read from multiple sources of mine.


----------



## Ich muss Caligari werden (Jul 15, 2020)

For sure he's a crossover artist. Previn's first work was in the movie industry (playing piano accompaniment for silent films). For a while he was an orchestrator at MGM. Unsure what you mean, *jojoju2000* by "first to push film scores out there...", but when he began his conducting career, he was frequently billed as "Hollywood's André Previn" which he quickly outgrew. Had an affinity and ability esp. for British music. Meanwhile, he developed a career as a jazz pianist as well (personally, I've not much liked his jazz work, what I've heard anyway). But, I love his conducting and composing. His Violin Concerto, Piano Concerto, and esp. Cello Concerto are particularly to be admired. I haven't heard his guitar concerto...


----------



## jojoju2000 (Jan 5, 2021)

Ich muss Caligari werden said:


> For sure he's a crossover artist. Previn's first work was in the movie industry (playing piano accompaniment for silent films). For a while he was an orchestrator at MGM. Unsure what you mean, *jojoju2000* by "first to push film scores out there...", but when he began his conducting career, he was frequently billed as "Hollywood's André Previn" which he quickly outgrew. Had an affinity and ability esp. for British music. Meanwhile, he developed a career as a jazz pianist as well (personally, I've not much liked his jazz work, what I've heard anyway). But, I love his conducting and composing. His Violin Concerto, Piano Concerto, and esp. Cello Concerto are particularly to be admired. I haven't heard his guitar concerto...


So i have a question for you; what makes Andre Previn different than say John Williams? Has Williams been too tied into the Popcorn Fluff of the 1980s ? Should he have promoted his own works more ?

How do people like Phillip Glass fit in ? Are they considered to be more " legit " because they made their names as classical composers first ?


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

If there was anyone who could have been Bernstein's successor, it was Previn: he worked in TV, films, theater as well as the concert hall and was a good writer. He was quite a popular TV figure in Britain if not so much here. His keyboard skills were first-rate. He made some terrific recordings for sure: RCA, EMI, Telarc all have great things in their catalog he did. There are some duds for sure. It was unfortunate that his personal life was so complex and messed up. Too many marriages and divorces. And the Soon-Yi scandal did nothing to help his public image. Someone really needs to write a good biography.


----------



## Ich muss Caligari werden (Jul 15, 2020)

jojoju2000 said:


> So i have a question for you; what makes Andre Previn different than say John Williams? Has Williams been too tied into the Popcorn Fluff of the 1980s ? Should he have promoted his own works more ?
> 
> How do people like Phillip Glass fit in ? Are they considered to be more " legit " because they made their names as classical composers first ?


I'm a bad one to ask, *jojoju2000*, because I'm one of those who resents Williams' success, dislikes his music, and believes he owes the Korngold Estate big money. I've tried to outgrow those feelings, tried to rationalize my way out of them, but - perhaps out of love for Korngold, I cannot; Williams' ripoff was just too blatant for my taste. But from my jaundiced perspective, Williams is way more commercial than Previn, the latter very much patterned his career after Lenny's, attempting to be a Renaissance man. Williams himself has said he feels shunned by the, as you say "legit" classical community; personally, I'll continue to shun him. Both Previn and Glass scored more art house films, certainly, and though Glass has met with his own resistance (I like him!) I would venture to say he garners rather more respect than Williams. Unsure whether you can say "legit" because of prior classical achievements. Previn came out of Hollywood. BTW, Glass's film experience was early and crucial to his cyclic structures and additive techniques, derived in part from Indian music he was exposed to when he transcribed Ravi Shankar's score for _Chappaqua_ for western musicians in '67. Interestingly, in contrast to Williams, Glass recently said he doesn't really care how he's remembered...but I digress.


----------



## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Ich muss Caligari werden said:


> I'm a bad one to ask, *jojoju2000*, because I'm one of those who resents Williams' success, dislikes his music, and believes he owes the Korngold Estate big money. I've tried to outgrow those feelings, tried to rationalize my way out of them, but - perhaps out of love for Korngold, I cannot; Williams' ripoff was just too blatant for my taste. But from my jaundiced perspective, Williams is way more commercial than Previn, the latter very much patterned his career after Lenny's, attempting to be a Renaissance man. Williams himself has said he feels shunned by the, as you say "legit" classical community; personally, I'll continue to shun him. Both Previn and Glass scored more art house films, certainly, and though Glass has met with his own resistance (I like him!) I would venture to say he garners rather more respect than Williams. Unsure whether you can say "legit" because of prior classical achievements. Previn came out of Hollywood. BTW, Glass's film experience was early and crucial to his cyclic structures and additive techniques, derived in part from Indian music he was exposed to when he transcribed Ravi Shankar's score for _Chappaqua_ for western musicians in '67. Interestingly, in contrast to Williams, Glass recently said he doesn't really care how he's remembered...but I digress.


It occurs to me that John Williams is sort of the Andrew Lloyd Webber of music. That is, if Andrew Lloyd Webber weren't already the Andrew Lloyd Webber of music.


----------



## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

Yeah, he was cross-over class.


----------



## vincula (Jun 23, 2020)

This is jolly good :lol::lol:

Thanks so much for sharing.

Regards,

Vincula


----------



## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

listen to his cadenza for Mozart K.491/i:


----------



## jojoju2000 (Jan 5, 2021)

Ich muss Caligari werden said:


> I'm a bad one to ask, *jojoju2000*, because I'm one of those who resents Williams' success, dislikes his music, and believes he owes the Korngold Estate big money. I've tried to outgrow those feelings, tried to rationalize my way out of them, but - perhaps out of love for Korngold, I cannot; Williams' ripoff was just too blatant for my taste. But from my jaundiced perspective, Williams is way more commercial than Previn, the latter very much patterned his career after Lenny's, attempting to be a Renaissance man. Williams himself has said he feels shunned by the, as you say "legit" classical community; personally, I'll continue to shun him. Both Previn and Glass scored more art house films, certainly, and though Glass has met with his own resistance (I like him!) I would venture to say he garners rather more respect than Williams. Unsure whether you can say "legit" because of prior classical achievements. Previn came out of Hollywood. BTW, Glass's film experience was early and crucial to his cyclic structures and additive techniques, derived in part from Indian music he was exposed to when he transcribed Ravi Shankar's score for _Chappaqua_ for western musicians in '67. Interestingly, in contrast to Williams, Glass recently said he doesn't really care how he's remembered...but I digress.


I would argue that without Williams, Orchestral Music in all of its forms would not be as popular or as relevant to at least the American Cultural Landscape. And here's why. Perhaps in Europe, it's a bit different. But in America, starting in the 1950s and 1960s, in the Classical Music world began to get very very atonal and avant-garde. The Film World began to abandon its more traditionalist aspects as well. The Minimalist Movement of Phillip Glass and others in the Classical World as an example. I would say that it turned off everyday Americans from Classical Music. If you read the History books, you'll actually find that American Orchestra attendance dropped alot in the late 60s and Early 70s. It didn't sound " pretty " anymore. It was too academic. And around the same time frame, the US Government began to devalue Music and Arts Education ( It's true... look it up ). You have these two factors which really impacted the role of Classical/Orchestral Music in America.

THEN COMES IN JOHN WILLIAMS. As Andre Previn pointed out, Williams basically resurrected the Traditional Film Symphonic Score through Jaws, Star Wars, so and so forth. Williams's Commercialism I would say, therefore, actually helped expose the traditional classical idiom to people that might not have heard, or wanted to hear a Phillip Glass piece for example. Williams's work as the Director of the Boston Pops further exposed the Orchestral forms if you can call it that way to Mainstream Middle America.

I work with and know a lot of Music Educators and they credit Williams with exposing Orchestral Music to young children just by watching his films, and those young children get inspired to become Classical Musicians themselves. And over the years, as Music Education got cut even more by the US Government, Williams's concerts and Music became in a way, the only conduit for Children to introduce them if that makes any sense to the Classical Tonal Forms of Music. Don't believe me ? Just ask Phillip Glass himself....

https://www.gramophone.co.uk/features/article/debate-when-is-film-music-classical
JD "That just proves how elements of your style have permeated the 'Hollywood' sound today, just as Rachmaninov did in movies of the '30s and '40s."

PG "Actually, my harmonic language usually is more adventurous in my film scores than in my concert music. It's much more dissonant. I'm more liable to sound like other people who write modern music."

JD "Is that because most people accept dissonance more readily in a cinematic context? Listeners who couldn't sit through Schoenberg's Second Chamber Symphony in concert wouldn't have trouble if it was the soundtrack to Attack of the Killer Tone Rows?"

PG "Absolutely. After all, wasn't it John Williams who made Stravinsky a popular idiom?"

JD "In fact, many people nowadays first experience orchestral music not through Beethoven, not through Mozart, but John Williams…"

JC "…who uses more French horns than any symphony orchestra can ever afford…"

PG " …more than Wagner!"

JD "Will audiences who respond to John Williams use that as a stepping-stone into starting to appreciate concert music?

JC " Well, the sounds of an orchestra might provide this kind of bridge. But there's a very great difference between listening to something without any words, story or picture, and a piece of music that's basically accompaniment to words and pictures."

PG "But John, in The Red Violin, you used music to articulate the film's structure, and I tried to do that too in The Hours. This is something not generally done. And I'm sure you've heard some people in Hollywood say that this is not 'real' film music, that it violates some unwritten law that film music must be decorative. Yet we've seen how music has the potential to articulate and formulate the structural emotional point of view of the film. That's a great contribution that we, and I mean the larger 'we' of concert, opera and ballet composers, have brought to the film world, and it's an important one."


----------



## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

John Williams for President!! :lol:


----------



## jojoju2000 (Jan 5, 2021)

Bulldog said:


> John Williams for President!! :lol:


You know; I wonder how much of this discussion is due to the fact, that Americans don't value Classical Music as much as other countries. If you ask a normal average American, he or she will have a cursory knowledge of who Stravinsky is.


----------



## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

jojoju2000 said:


> You know; I wonder how much of this discussion is due to the fact, that Americans don't value Classical Music as much as other countries. If you ask a normal average American, he or she will have a cursory knowledge of who Stravinsky is.


Oh come now. If you ask your average Briton off the High Street, they're going to be hard-pressed to know who the hell Benjamin Britten was, and he was the greatest their like could hope to produce.

I find it bonkers the way people talk about Americans as if they're some sort of extra-terrestrial species! Yes, 99% of them wouldn't have a clue if classical music punched them in the face and stormed their Capitol. And *that's true of every culture and every nation under the sun*. Classical music is a minority sport: get used to it!


----------



## jojoju2000 (Jan 5, 2021)

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> Oh come now. If you ask your average Briton off the High Street, they're going to be hard-pressed to know who the hell Benjamin Britten was, and he was the greatest their like could hope to produce.
> 
> I find it bonkers the way people talk about Americans as if they're some sort of extra-terrestrial species! Yes, 99% of them wouldn't have a clue if classical music punched them in the face and stormed their Capitol. And *that's true of every culture and every nation under the sun*. Classical music is a minority sport: get used to it!


So I call my own country Aliens. Lol.

No but really; I work with Music Educators, and the one thing they hate the most is how the US Government has defunded arts education programs left and right.


----------



## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

*Combo package:
*Mention of introducing people to orchestras in: 2:10
Lionel Newman speaking of Williams as a classical composer looked down upon by some critics: 6:58
Brief interview with Previn in: 7:32


----------



## Ich muss Caligari werden (Jul 15, 2020)

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> Oh come now. If you ask your average Briton off the High Street, they're going to be hard-pressed to know who the hell Benjamin Britten was, and he was the greatest their like could hope to produce.
> 
> I find it bonkers the way people talk about Americans as if they're some sort of extra-terrestrial species! Yes, 99% of them wouldn't have a clue if classical music punched them in the face and stormed their Capitol. And *that's true of every culture and every nation under the sun*. Classical music is a minority sport: get used to it!


:lol: You remind me of a French prof I had who destroyed my vision of France as a republic in which Poetry was King and every French person knew dozens of poems _par coeur_. "No," he said, "few read it, and fewer still understand it...Most watch TV same as in the U.S."


----------



## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

jojoju2000 said:


> So I call my own country Aliens. Lol.
> 
> No but really; I work with Music Educators, and the one thing they hate the most is how the US Government has defunded arts education programs left and right.


Benjamin Britten was literally complaining about that in the five years leading up to his death. Governments _never_ fund the arts properly, no matter what country you're talking about. It is a universal truth. The only exception I might allow is Soviet Russia in the 1930s to 1960s. And that went the way of their space program the minute the money ran out.

I was lucky. I was made to play a state-supplied recorder atrociously for two years. I don't think music education has progressed beyond that since then in the UK, at least. And I rather suspect it has gone quite a way backwards.


----------



## Ich muss Caligari werden (Jul 15, 2020)

jojoju2000 said:


> I would argue that without Williams, Orchestral Music in all of its forms would not be as popular or as relevant to at least the American Cultural Landscape. And here's why...


Of course, you're free to worship at the church of your choice, but I think if Williams had performed that miracle it would be more broadly remarked than it is. _New Groves_ devotes several pages to him and neglects to mention it.


----------



## jojoju2000 (Jan 5, 2021)

Ich muss Caligari werden said:


> Of course, you're free to worship at the church of your choice, but I think if Williams had performed that miracle it would be more broadly remarked than it is. _New Groves_ devotes several pages to him and neglects to mention it.


Well, that's what the Royal Philharmonic Society literally said when they awarded him the Gold Medal in November of Last Year. The first-ever Film Composer to ever receive the award. Like ever. https://royalphilharmonicsociety.org.uk/awards/gold-medal/john-williams

https://www.deseret.com/2014/7/11/20544640/how-john-williams-changed-the-relationship-between-movies-music#a-crowd-at-the-deer-valley-music-festivals-outdoor-venue-which-holds-about-5000-this-friday-the-utah-symphony-will-perform-the-music-of-john-williams-a-concert-honoring-the-distinguished-film-score-composer


> Williams has also been credited for helping to bridge the gap between movie soundtracks and true classical music.
> 
> "For years, movie composers were not using actual symphony orchestras for their music," Tolokan said. "John Williams bridged that amazing gap. We have a special debt to pay to Mr. Williams because he loved the sound of the whole symphony orchestra."
> 
> ...


----------



## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

Leonard Slatkin's mother - Eleanor Slatkin - played 1st cello on Previn's 1964 *Dead Ringer* soundtrack, the best John Williams-sounding film score that Johnny Williams never wrote!

[sample Johnny Williams' 1965 *None But The Brave* CD to hear Previn-sounding music that was not written by Previn  ]


----------



## Ich muss Caligari werden (Jul 15, 2020)

jojoju2000 said:


> Well, that's what the Royal Philharmonic Society literally said when they awarded him the Gold Medal in November of Last Year. The first-ever Film Composer to ever receive the award. Like ever. https://royalphilharmonicsociety.org.uk/awards/gold-medal/john-williams
> 
> https://www.deseret.com/2014/7/11/20544640/how-john-williams-changed-the-relationship-between-movies-music#a-crowd-at-the-deer-valley-music-festivals-outdoor-venue-which-holds-about-5000-this-friday-the-utah-symphony-will-perform-the-music-of-john-williams-a-concert-honoring-the-distinguished-film-score-composer


Thanks, *jojoju*, but the funny thing about lacking the ability to appreciate Williams and his music is that it is accompanied by an equal incapacity to value or understand his honors...


----------



## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

There are some funny tales that Previn tells about his Hollywood years in his book 'No Minor Chords'.
He was friends with Errol Flynn who one night, knocked on Previn's door a little worse for worse. Flynn said "hi, I've come to thank you and bring you a present." He then pushed a pretty Chinese girl into his doorway and ran off. Previn does not elaborate further. I think it was also Flynn whom Previn bumped into coming down the stairs of his girlfriends apartment while Previn was going up the stairs. They laughed and Previn went for dinner with him instead (he doesn't say if he ended the relationship with his girlfriend).

And this made me laugh...

_Max Steiner met Korngold on Warner Bros Street. They greeted each other and Steiner said, "You Know Erich, we've both been here at Warners for over twenty years and something occurred to me recently; your music is slowly getting hackneyed and mine is getting better."

Korngold was unperturbed. 'But the explanation is simple Maxie," he purred. "I'm beginning to imitate you and you are beginning to imitate me!"_....composers eh?


----------



## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Nice thread. To go back to the beginning, I wouldn't use the term 'cross-over' to describe Previn. I would simply describe him as a uniquely talented all-round musician.


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Previn wrote a fun book "Orchestra" based on his experiences conducting the LondonSO and other ensembles...lots of interviews with various orchestra personnel....fun read, with some great anecdotes.


----------



## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

jojoju2000 said:


> So I call my own country Aliens. Lol.
> 
> No but really; I work with Music Educators, and the one thing they hate the most is how the US Government has defunded arts education programs left and right.


 Older people might have the same perspective as I do… The nerdy kids took from music education (7th and 8th grade classes) the introduction to notes and staves and chords, and some went on to learn the the logic of more advanced music theory. This is when music was funded.

This exposure (education) is very beneficial for you in later life, because music grows with you every decade and it doesn't take a lot of time, not the amount of time that's being taking up by video games in these young lives today. All those hours that the kids should be learning interests and nurturing their interests for later life - once they get tired of video games and spectator sports and going to bars, lol whatever, they're going to need interests, hobbies for the second half of their lives. Gardening doesn't do it for most people, maybe old sitcoms and westerns? Sad..

In the 1950s the nerdy kids were learning piano. Maybe they were forced to take piano lessons. Many homes had a piano, not very good ones but..

Then the Beatles came on the scene and people wanted to buy guitars. The nerdy kids learned difficult chords and maybe some music theory. Paul McCartney has a funny story about learning the chord B7, they had to cross town when they heard of a kid who knew how to play it.

Next came the psychedelic 70s and the guitar sounds that everybody was trying to figure it out with amplification and buzz boxes. It seemed pretty silly to me.

Then the drum machines and..

Then the computers came in with such an easy way to write a rhythm track etc. You really didn't need much experience playing music to be able to create a song that sounded professional to your friends.

I think I see a trend here ...and it's not a very happy trend for peoples' lives. But perhaps Virtual Reality will take over and replace all of the arts very effectively?


----------



## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

Previn is probably the only musician who was music director of major orchestras who also had a record which made the Billboard Top 100 Pop Charts...this one went to #46 in 1959.


----------



## Doctor Fuse (Feb 3, 2021)

I am a fan of his Angel/EMI recordings with the London Symphony, back in the early-mid 70s. Shostakovich's Symphony No. 8 and Prokofiev's Symphony No. 5 are very excited, both the performances (even when ensemble almost comes undone) and recording style (bass heavy but in a good way - Stuart Knussen was one titan of a bass player!).


----------



## John Lenin (Feb 4, 2021)

Previn knew where the money was.....
He was typically late 20th century USA influenced.... part musicologist, part performing clown for the camera....


----------

