# Bassoon Question



## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Hi Guys--

Just oddly curious: Are the tripping bassoon licks in the outer movements of Beethoven's Fourth difficult to play? Or just fun? And would they have been a challenge in 1807?

Cheers --


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Yes, they are difficult - very, very difficult. They go lickety-split and they're tongued; not slurred. The fingerings aren't so unusual. It's a nightmare. The rest of the symphony isn't that difficult, really. But knowing that those licks are coming up is quite stressful. It's no wonder they're on every audition. You must have a fluid technique a great reed and a fabulous double tonguing skill.

Solutions include begging the conductor to take a more reasonable tempo and the old standby: slur two, tongue two. On some recordings and performances you can barely hear the part. I know a retired pro player - from Curtis no less - who just refused to play the Beethoven 4th. Whenever it was schedule in her 40 year career she always opted out.

I know another bassoonist who has quite collection of old bassoons from the mid 1700's through to modern era. He has done several demonstrations on a Beethoven-era instrument. It has far fewer keys which might make it easier in some respects, but the trade off is sound quality and intonation.

The piece even gets cartoon treatment:


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I wonder if this guy would have trouble with the Beethoven Fourth.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Terry Ewell? He doesn't have problems with anything concerning bassoon. One of the great players and teachers.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

I think of the 2nd movement to the Stravinsky _Octet_ as having a prominent bassoon part. Not sure if it is particularly difficult, though.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

SanAntone said:


> I think of the 2nd movement to the Stravinsky _Octet_ as having a prominent bassoon part. Not sure if it is particularly difficult, though.


The 8tet is very challenging, throughout...the 2nd bssn part on the repeated Variation (A??) is difficult...it's more like Bassoons X and Y rather than I and II..
Stravinsky's recording with NY group is really terrific...the bassoons (Loren Glickman, Arthur Weisberg) do an amazing job...great section...they were frequent section partners in many musical ventures.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

LvB 4/IV is notorious to all bassoonists..it probably is asked on every audition....you have to immediately "get in the groove" and go...jump right in and don't be late!! I've played it several times...I 2ble tongue, so speed isn't too crucial, but precision and accuracy are always a concern...the conductor can help a great deal by setting up a very solid, firm tempo and rhythm....one guy I played for wanted to go 160++ beats/minute...the strings weren't really holding it together at that speed, so the tempo would slow a little then he'd rush like crazy on the repeated half notes...at the solo the strings were scattered all over the page, the precision totally gone....it was a nightmare...I just went with the stick, jumped in, thought it was wrong...actually, it was right, and the tape came out pretty decently. That was scary, tho...trying to fit into the sloppiness...
Some funny stories regarding 4/IV - One of my teachers, Dave Van Hoesen- told us about his audition for bssn II with Szell/Cleveland- he was busily practicing the lick, going a million miles an hour, fast as possible, really working up a lather....the principal bassoon, George Goslee came over to him- <<Dave, much slower, much slower, he doesn't go nearly that fast - phrase it nicely, good sound, make a musical phrase>>.He did he did get the job...he incorporated into his teaching - he advised us- when asked for this excerpt - play it slow, clean, good sound, nicely phrased...you get points on the board...if they want it a million miles an hour, they'll ask for it!!
Reiner scheduled it in Chicago - on stage, pre-rehearsal, 1st bssn Leonard Sharrow was practicing it...he didn't 2ble tongue, so he was trying different tongue/slur combinations....Reiner enters on stage - he always liked to challenge his musicians, put them in the spot..he looks around, glaring, scowling, sees/hears Sharrow practicing..."No Slurs!!" he snarls...lol!...Sharrow did slur it tho, because Reiner really moved it along...so did Monteux and Mravinsky, and some of the HIP guys.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

What about the basoon solo in the Bourée no.2 of JS Bach's fourth orchestral suite (BWV1069)? In this the notes are slurred in groups of four, but the tempo must be very fast, and there is next to no time to breath. It sounds very difficult indeed.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

premont said:


> What about the basoon solo in the Bourée no.2 of JS Bach's fourth orchestral suite (BWV1069)? In this the notes are slurred in groups of four, but the tempo must be very fast, and there is next to no time to breath. It sounds very difficult indeed.


Yes, very fun to play, quite athletic!! the breathing is a challenge, esp if repeats are taken...it's one of my favorite Bach parts...[his continuo lines are always fun....]


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## MrMeatScience (Feb 15, 2015)

SanAntone said:


> I think of the 2nd movement to the Stravinsky _Octet_ as having a prominent bassoon part. Not sure if it is particularly difficult, though.


I played second bassoon in the Stravinsky Octet a few years ago. It's probably harder overall than the Beethoven, but the solo in the finale of B4 is way more challenging than the hardest parts of the Octet, in my opinion. Both really fun pieces to play though, stress aside.


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