# A Quick Mozart Question



## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

In an interview, Simon Rattle said something to the effect:

"The reason that my favourite Brahms symphony is his 3rd is for the same reason that many people's favourite Mozart opera is _Idomeneo_."

I have no clue what he meant! Can you help me, kind people?


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

Only thing that comes to mind is that he means he likes it *because* it's not as well known or as well loved as the composer's more famous works.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Would that mean not as well known but of equal merit as their more famous ones?


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Polednice said:


> Would that mean not as well known but of equal merit as their more famous ones?


I do rank Idomeneo as Mozart's other top 5 opera.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Polednice said:


> In an interview, Simon Rattle said something to the effect:
> 
> "The reason that my favourite Brahms symphony is his 3rd is for the same reason that many people's favourite Mozart opera is _Idomeneo_."
> 
> I have no clue what he meant! Can you help me, kind people?


Here you have a smart* real answer*...

http://books.google.ca/books?id=3c_d6JRauvYC&pg=PA54&lpg=PA54&dq=idomeneo+and+brahms&source=bl&ots=PbPgUmzRn_&sig=uKOMq4pKoEDNAqsg0mZE7LRwwxk&hl=en&ei=7OJ_TrqwOJHI0AG11fkE&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=idomeneo%20and%20brahms&f=false

Read this.

Sincerely,

Martin

What beautiful dissonances! What Harmony said Brahms about Idomeneo in the article I have already posted...I cannot copy from there, it is a PDF.

I love Brahms' symphonies, more the 4th than the others because of the contrapuntal stuff in the last movement...It sounds awesome. I'm not a Brahms specialist (loin de là)...I hope I'm not saying stupid things.

Martin


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Interesting comparison. _Idomeneo_ is a fine opera but I have never thought of Brahms nor his symphony #3 in anyway while listening to it.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

I think he's saying that maybe Brahms #3 is the great symphony that isn't so well known as the others, just like Idomeneo was neglected and unappreciated for 150 years - and even still, relative to other Mozart operas. But of course, this doesn't give "the reason" he's referring to.

"For the same *reason *that many people's favourite Mozart opera is Idomeneo."

Maybe the reason is that he's grown fond of it improportionately *because *it's not considered to be so great?


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

In light of how people have responded, is it general opinion that Brahms's 3rd symphony is at all overshadowed or lesser? I imagine the 1st and 4th tower higher in terms of historical context, but I think the 3rd is still recognised as a masterpiece...


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Polednice said:


> In light of how people have responded, is it general opinion that Brahms's 3rd symphony is at all overshadowed or lesser? I imagine the 1st and 4th tower higher in terms of historical context, but I think the 3rd is still recognised as a masterpiece...


 Well, I think Idomeneo is also recognized as a masterpiece by anybody who takes the trouble of listening to it. The big 4 (Don, Flute, Nozze, Cosi) get all the attention, but in my opinion Idomeneo is the fifth one of the top five. That's what I said here, for instance:

http://www.talkclassical.com/14997-best-mozart-opera.html#post205826


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

LOL . . . Brahm's 3rd Symphony. Always makes me think of the dialogue from _Fawlty Towers_:

[_Classical music is playing in the background. Basil is putting up a picture. Sybil walks in._]
Sybil: Don't forget the menu.
Basil: I beg your pardon?
Sybil: Don't forget the menu.
Basil: I thought you said you want- Right! I'll do the menu!
[_Puts down the picture, walks over to a typewriter and sits down._]
Sybil: You could have had them both done by now if you hadn't spent the whole morning skulking in there listening to that racket.
Basil: Racket? That's _Brahms_! Brahms' _Third Racket!_


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## ooopera (Jul 27, 2011)

Sorry, I know that this is not opera, but I couldn't resist to post the link. It's so beautiful! Some people say that Rattle's Brahms symphonies are the best nowadays. Can you hear in the beginning of the video how he pulls out the violin accompaniment? I haven't heard something like that before. And Stefan Dohr plays horn just like in heaven!


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## Nix (Feb 20, 2010)

Polednice said:


> In light of how people have responded, is it general opinion that Brahms's 3rd symphony is at all overshadowed or lesser? I imagine the 1st and 4th tower higher in terms of historical context, but I think the 3rd is still recognised as a masterpiece...


It's funny, a bunch of orchestras in the America's are playing Brahms 3rd this season, and on their mini online description some of them refer to it as Brahms greatest achievement, or something of that nature:

http://www.mso.org/tickets/detail?perfid=13410

Maybe they're just trying to sell seats, or perhaps there is growing recognition for what I've always thought was his weakest contribution in the genre... or these programs are all formulated by the same people... I'm starting to think so- the 3 orchestras I consistently keep track of (Milwaukee Symphony, BSO, and NY Phil) are all doing Brahms 3 this year, and all did Dvorak 7 last year. Very suspicious.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

@Nix - Obviously, they're conspiring to please me because those are my favourite symphonies by those two composers! 

@ooopera - I find Rattle quite hit-and-miss with Brahms. I think his recording of the Requiem is one of the greatest, but I'm not at all fond of his 4th Symphony recording. That extract from a performance of the 3rd sounds promising, but I imagine I wouldn't like it. Brahms has quite complex, often heavy textures, but I think that, in an attempt to emphasise all of them, Rattle can end up being too dry and turgid.


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## ooopera (Jul 27, 2011)

@Polednice - What means hit-and-miss? That something is good and something bad?
Friend of mine told me that Rattle did the best job with Brahms 2nd. Anyway, I've ordered all 4 symphonies and the package should arrive this week. I'll tell you how they sound.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

ooopera said:


> @Polednice - What means hit-and-miss? That something is good and something bad?
> Friend of mine told me that Rattle did the best job with Brahms 2nd. Anyway, I've ordered all 4 symphonies and the package should arrive this week. I'll tell you how they sound.


Hit-and-miss is when sometimes a person gets something great (as I think with Rattle's recording of the Requiem), but at other times gets something else wrong (as I think with his recording of the 4th symphony).

As such, I just find Rattle a bit unreliable, so I don't think of him as one of my default conductors to search out when listening to Brahms. I'll see if I can give his recording of the 2nd a try though.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

ooopera said:


> Sorry, I know that this is not opera, but I couldn't resist to post the link. It's so beautiful!


No, it's just fine, you're on topic, since the topic of this thread has been this comparison opera/symphony, so it's quite OK to post a fragment of the symphony, just like if someone posted a fragment of Idomeneo.


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