# Schumann & Schubert



## Op.123

I find these composers very similar.
Both have a very intimate, personal and very passionate, expressive style to their music.
I find Schumann more like to Schubert than to any other composer and vice versa.
Beethoven's music is big in sound and has a very universal feel to it. Chopin's has a sort of unreal beauty to his music. Liszt's is music of virtuosity. Mozart's is sweet and light while Brahms's music is heavy and autumnal.
But... Schubert's and Schumann's music is intimate, personal, passionate and expressive.

What do you think about this?


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## Vesteralen

As far as it goes, what you said is probably true. The difference between the two is that Schumann was willing to go farther in baring his soul - he did not disdain even awkwardness if it better conveyed the emotion he wanted to express. (That's one of the things that puts a lot of people off him. Not me, though.) Schubert was expressive and intimate, too - but he played by the rules a lot more.


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## Joris

I agree , although sometimes I think Schumann sounds more 'poignant'
For example in this:


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## LindnerianSea

Indeed, both were capable of intimate expressions. But the fact that Schubert is still considered by some critics as a somewhat restrained 'classicist' distances him from Schumann who was uber Romantic. Also Schubert was capable comfortably handling huge orchestrations, whereas Schumann's orchestrations were always awkward in some ways (apparently - sadly I am no music major to throw in specific examples).

Other than this, I would totally agree with you . I am fascinated in Schubert's late works, where his emotional outpourings come very close to the Romantics.


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## Op.123

Vesteralen said:


> As far as it goes, what you said is probably true. The difference between the two is that Schumann was willing to go farther in baring his soul - he did not disdain even awkwardness if it better conveyed the emotion he wanted to express. (That's one of the things that puts a lot of people off him. Not me, though.) Schubert was expressive and intimate, too - but he played by the rules a lot more.


I agree.  .


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## Schumann

The most comparable emotions between these two composers is the engaging sound of solitude and poetry in there lieder-cycles; both most fragile and heartfelt feelings.


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## Mahlerian

LindnerianSea said:


> Indeed, both were capable of intimate expressions. But the fact that Schubert is still considered by some critics as a somewhat restrained 'classicist' distances him from Schumann who was uber Romantic. Also Schubert was capable comfortably handling huge orchestrations, whereas Schumann's orchestrations were always awkward in some ways (apparently - sadly I am no music major to throw in specific examples).











I think it speaks for itself.


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## brianvds

Mahlerian said:


> View attachment 23257
> 
> 
> I think it speaks for itself.


Alas, apart from the fact that it looks a bit dense to my eye, I can't say that it makes the point for itself. (Not everyone here has three degrees and a licentiate in music...  )

That "dense" look is perhaps one difference between the two composers: at least to my ears, Schumann sounds rather more dense and more Brahms-like than Schubert, who often seems to have a more Mozart-like clarity. But those are subjective observations.


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## LindnerianSea

Mahlerian said:


> View attachment 23257
> 
> 
> I think it speaks for itself.


Mahlerian, it would be massively helpful if you could enlighten this layman regarding your recondite reply.


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## Mahlerian

LindnerianSea said:


> Mahlerian, it would be massively helpful if you could enlighten this layman regarding your recondite reply.


Well, if the direction _FFF_ is followed literally by every instrument, the brass will overpower the other winds, the timpani will boom out above the other bass-range instruments, and all of this will smother the inner voices. The main problem is that every climax looks pretty much like this, which gives off a very monotone impression for long stretches.


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## Art Rock

I don't hear the similarity to be honest - I would think Schumann has more in common with Mendelssohn. On the other hand, Schumann is one of the few "big names" that I apparently don't get. In spite of owning most of his well-known works on CD (and listening to them obviously), he would come in at about #100 in a list of my favourite composers - with Brahms, Schubert and Mendelssohn all making the top 10.


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## Weston

I often listen to Schubert, most likely in error, as a kind of Beethoven: The Sequel. I am mostly listening for his bold modulations that I think "surely Beethoven would have got around to doing someday." I suppose one can make comparisons, but Schumann is in a whole different aural universe for me.


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## chrisco97

All I can say I know on this subject is that I prefer Schubert's style of music. :lol:


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## Centropolis

You guys fascinate me with knowledge of the music.

Maybe I am too new to this classical music thing. At this point, I am not able to tell you who wrote that if you play me a symphony unless I've heard it maybe 3 or 4 times before. I don't have the knowledge to say that this composer uses this and that while others use this.

If you play me something I've heard maybe once before and not a popular piece, I can probably only tell you if it's Baroque, Classical or Romantic by the way the music is. I am not good enough to take an educated guess of who the composer is by just hearing the things in the music.

Sorry to diverge a bit from the main topic. Being new to this, I've only listened to the 4 Schumann's symphonies once and I find his stuff to be (and I really apologize for using non-technical terms here) "unpredictable". Another one composer that I find that I feel a lot of tension in the music is Liszt's piano concertos. I feel like I am not really relaxed listening to them.


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## violadude

I don't find them to be very similar to be honest. If I were to compare Schubert to any composer, I would say he was a greater version of Weber. Their styles were both mostly classical and touched on the Romantic spirit in relatively fewer of their works. And even in these works of Schubert that sound somewhat Romantic in style, they are very concerned with classical forms still. He did, however, point forward to Bruckner with his huge sonata forms with 3 themes instead of 2. The only area I can think of where Schubert seems very Romantic to me is in his lieder which I think provided a medium for Schubert to embrace all aspects of Romanticism more comfortably since the lieder is inherently programmatic. The same thing I think applies to Weber in the case of "Der Frieschutz". 

Schumann on the other hand was Romantic in every way. He seemed to have little concern for classical forms except for when he was writing a Symphony (which was something he probably took more seriously because Beethoven). His works were almost always programmatic in some way. While Schubert could pull off very surprising harmonic twists, they aren't unstable in the same way Schumann's harmonies are often unstable. In most Schubert works that I can think of you can tell what the key is almost right away, but Schumann was one of the first composers to really start making the tonality of his pieces extremely ambiguous from the very beginning of them.

I think the mistake some people make is that they think intense emotion is the only thing that makes a piece of music Romantic in style, which isn't true. There is much more to being labeled a "Romantic composer" than merely having intensity of expression in your compositions.


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## Ondine

violadude said:


> I think the mistake some people make is that they think intense emotion is the only thing that makes a piece of music Romantic in style, which isn't true. There is much more to being labeled a "Romantic composer" than merely having intensity of expression in your compositions.


As you, @violadude, here are very knowledgeable members who can explain things from the composition/orchestration perspective.

A perspective I appreciate much more than just telling about the urban legends around composers. I feel that this knowledge is being wasted getting lost in unnecessarily biased discussions.

An special forum for this kind of analysis would be really good in order to appreciate the composer as 'a composer'.

Sorry,

Back to topic


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## violadude

Ondine said:


> As you, @violadude, here are very knowledgeable members who can explain things from the composition/orchestration perspective. A perspective I appreciate much more than just telling about the urban legends around composers. I feel that this knowledge is being wasted getting lost in unnecessarily biased discussions. An special forum for this kind of analysis would be really good in order to appreciate the composer as 'a composer'.
> 
> Sorry,
> 
> Back to topic


I'll work on a list of what I think to be are strong Romantic era tendencies then


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## Ukko

Ondine said:


> As you, @violadude, here are very knowledgeable members who can explain things from the composition/orchestration perspective.
> [...]
> An special forum for this kind of analysis would be really good in order to appreciate the composer as 'a composer'.
> [...]


Rather than as a 'musicmaker'? Appreciation of technique irrespective of effectiveness - if such a thing is possible - ? I don't know if it would be 'really good' )), but it would add a kind of 'class' to the mix.


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## Joris

Centropolis said:


> I find his stuff to be (and I really apologize for using non-technical terms here) "unpredictable". Another one composer that I find that I feel a lot of tension in the music is Liszt's piano concertos. I feel like I am not really relaxed listening to them.


Try listening to Schumann like this (the picture is even called 'On listening to Schumann' or something):








Emotions are unpredictable too, all of a sudden your humours can change. Try listening to Schumann in contemplation with this idea, that way you'll understand the music which has sprouted from Schumann's inner world.

For relaxation, Mozart is a safer bet.


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## moody

Burroughs said:


> I find these composers very similar.
> Both have a very intimate, personal and very passionate, expressive style to their music.
> I find Schumann more like to Schubert than to any other composer and vice versa.
> Beethoven's music is big in sound and has a very universal feel to it. Chopin's has a sort of unreal beauty to his music. Liszt's is music of virtuosity. Mozart's is sweet and light while Brahms's music is heavy and autumnal.
> But... Schubert's and Schumann's music is intimate, personal, passionate and expressive.
> 
> What do you think about this?


I'm afraid there is no similarity between these two.


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## LindnerianSea

Mahlerian said:


> Well, if the direction _FFF_ is followed literally by every instrument, the brass will overpower the other winds, the timpani will boom out above the other bass-range instruments, and all of this will smother the inner voices. The main problem is that every climax looks pretty much like this, which gives off a very monotone impression for long stretches.


Thank you very much for your informative reply ! I did read many things about Schumann's often erroneous and amateurish orchestrations (mentioned from Tchaikovsky to Bernstein), but this is the first time I receive a technical explanation ~


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## StlukesguildOhio

I would suggest you listen to this:










or this:










or this:










... and you might find that all the complaints concerning Schumann's supposed "amateurish" orchestrations are somewhat overstated. No... he's no Wagner or Rimsky-Korsakov or Richard Strauss or Ravel... but neither were Brahms... or even Beethoven.

Having said that... I have to agree with Moody. I don't find a lot of similarities between Schubert and Schumann outside of the lieder... and even these are quite different. I personally prefer Schubert... but I honestly love both composers.


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## neoshredder

I enjoy both Composers. Schumann definitely was inspired by late Schubert's works. Maybe a slightly weaker version of late Schubert though. But he has his moments. I'm looking forward to listening to more of these Composers works. I think I prefer them over the Late Romantics. Sibelius being the exception.


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