# Minor Question



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

... well, minor compared with Favorite Villain, which no doubt will change the fate of the home planet :lol: ...

... was Gilda raped?

Not by Rigoletto's standards, but by ours. Or I should say yours. 

Kidnapped, yes. Clearly. But she and the Duke were in love, at least according to the libretto, and it seems clear they did have intercourse once he discovered she was there. My feeling is that she was willing, however, and so it probably wasn't rape by our standards.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

I also think it was consensual. Yes, she realized afterward what she'd done in terms of moral values at that time, and regretted it to some extent. But as the duet with Rigoletto makes clear, she loves the Duke -- and I don't think she'd feel that way about him if he'd forced himself on her. And I really doubt that she would have willingly taken a fatal knife blow in his place had he raped her.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Hmph. her reputation was sullied (an old word, inapplicable to anything nowadays, though the mods still harbor it).


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

MAuer said:


> I also think it was consensual. Yes, she realized afterward what she'd done in terms of moral values at that time, and regretted it to some extent. But as the duet with Rigoletto makes clear, she loves the Duke -- and I don't think she'd feel that way about him if he'd forced himself on her. And I really doubt that she would have willingly taken a fatal knife blow in his place had he raped her.


Ah, good point. Yes, she still loved him afterwards too. He must have been quite a guy! I'm having a hard time getting the phrase "Stockholm Syndrome" out of my head, however ... well who knows, right?


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Hmph. her reputation was sullied (an old word, inapplicable to anything nowadays, though the mods still harbor it).


Well it was, yes. But isn't the secret point of the opera to criticize that old tradition, whereby the honor of the father is found only between the legs of the daughter?


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

I think it was consensual. Her guilt & shame was because it was outside marriage.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Rape - in older usage, meant 'abduction,' and did not automatically include forced sexual relations, though in the sensibility of classical antiquity, perhaps that was considered 'matter of fact.'

So, yes, she was 'raped.'


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

sospiro said:


> I think it was consensual. Her guilt & shame was because it was outside marriage.


I think so too.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

PetrB said:


> Rape - in older usage, meant 'abduction,' and did not automatically include forced sexual relations, though in the sensibility of classical antiquity, perhaps that was considered 'matter of fact.'
> 
> So, yes, she was 'raped.'


Well - but by YOUR standards was she raped? You're judge, jury and executioner here - not older usages!


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## onmeds (Apr 23, 2013)

Bill Clinton couldn't have said it better.


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## onmeds (Apr 23, 2013)

guythegreg said:


> Well - but by YOUR standards was she raped? You're judge, jury and executioner here - not older usages!


not exactly clear on how to use this system quite yet. But you are right guy the greg. . .opera punishes
our NOT i ness.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

sospiro said:


> I think it was consensual. Her guilt & shame was because it was outside marriage.


This occurred in _Italy_? Perhaps one should keep in mind that the Puritans were not big there. Virginity was mostly valued as a family commodity, as a preservative for bloodlines.


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

PetrB said:


> Rape - in older usage, meant 'abduction,' and did not automatically include forced sexual relations, though in the sensibility of classical antiquity, perhaps that was considered 'matter of fact.'


Indeed, the Italian word for abduction is "rapir", as in the Dukes aria _Ella mi fu rapita_.

As far as Gilda, I think the whole point of the Duke's character is that he didn't have to force himself on anyone.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

onmeds said:


> Bill Clinton couldn't have said it better.


Hey, now.........


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Hilltroll72 said:


> This occurred in _Italy_? Perhaps one should keep in mind that the Puritans were not big there. Virginity was mostly valued as a family commodity, as a preservative for bloodlines.


Well, THAT'S interesting ... so you maintain that only the IMAGE of honor was sullied? if i've understood you right?


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

onmeds said:


> Bill Clinton couldn't have said it better.


But he didn't inhale ...


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

Good question, and I'd say no, not raped. I think of Gilda's affection for the Duke as some sort of first-love infatuation like teens often succumb to. Remember that the Duke is very handsome, charming, and an absolute ladies' man sexual predator.

When Gilda decides in the finale that the Duke still loves her, despite evidence to the contrary, I'd put her in the "trailer trash" category somewhat, "He beats me but I know I love him anyway" mentality.

Once when I watched a Met opera PBS broadcast of Rigoletto, then-prez Beverly Sills told the audience that was why she liked Rigoletto so much, that "Nobody in the opera is any damn good" which is one reason I love Rigoletto myself. The principal character reminds me a bit of Poe's short story "Hopfrog" (one of Poe's most horrific stories).


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

And speaking of rape...and what about Donna Anna? Was she raped? Is it just me or Don Giovanni never managed to fullfil his intentions with any women that appears in the opera?


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

dionisio said:


> And speaking of rape...and what about Donna Anna? Was she raped? Is it just me or Don Giovanni never managed to fullfil his intentions with any women that appears in the opera?


Ah yes! I think this is one of the more interesting questions in opera. Personally, I think good arguments for either side in the case can be made. So both yes and no. Both can yield some very interesting interpretations.

And yes, that's some wonderful irony. Mille e tre indeed.


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

dionisio said:


> And speaking of rape...and what about Donna Anna? Was she raped? Is it just me or Don Giovanni never managed to fullfil his intentions with any women that appears in the opera?


Apparently either Donna Anna resisted from the beginning or had second thoughts during, but either way, the Don never got past first base.

You're right, though, and Mozart and Daponte prevented the Don from ever getting laid during the whole opera. One time all he gets to do is hold hands, the other time he only gets a window appearance by the maid. I'm pretty sure that the irony was intentional and adds to the comic threads of the opera.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Rene Jacobs says that the idea of Donna Anna being willing was first postulated in the 19th century - it was definitely not seen as a possibility in Mozart's time. I think it still can add something to the mix though.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

dionisio said:


> And speaking of rape...and what about Donna Anna? Was she raped? Is it just me or Don Giovanni never managed to fullfil his intentions with any women that appears in the opera?


Just one more reason it's really a comedy! (I have no opinion on Donna Anna, sorry. But others have noticed that for such a ladies' man he doesn't seem to have had any actual success.)


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

katdad said:


> Good question, and I'd say no, not raped. I think of Gilda's affection for the Duke as some sort of first-love infatuation like teens often succumb to. Remember that the Duke is very handsome, charming, and an absolute ladies' man sexual predator.
> 
> When Gilda decides in the finale that the Duke still loves her, despite evidence to the contrary, I'd put her in the "trailer trash" category somewhat, "He beats me but I know I love him anyway" mentality.
> 
> Once when I watched a Met opera PBS broadcast of Rigoletto, then-prez Beverly Sills told the audience that was why she liked Rigoletto so much, that "Nobody in the opera is any damn good" which is one reason I love Rigoletto myself. The principal character reminds me a bit of Poe's short story "Hopfrog" (one of Poe's most horrific stories).


thanks. I'm a big Poe fan but I don't recall that story - have to check it out now!


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> Rene Jacobs says that the idea of Donna Anna being willing was first postulated in the 19th century - it was definitely not seen as a possibility in Mozart's time. I think it still can add something to the mix though.


I've seen the making of on the DVD and Jacobs gives us his vision, which is very outspoken. I doubt if there's any conductor with more historically in depth information on the da Ponte opera's. He is obsessed with tempi and has so many interesting explanations.

Attempted rape as literally told by Donna Anna in the libretto seems stranger in modern times than consensual sex. If Donna Anna was fooling around with the Don, actually getting her father killed by her own "bad" behaviour, it ads a lot more weight to her character I think, this is why so many directors chose for this option.

It also depends on the concept, is it a comic opera or not? The Vienna version is much more comic, because that was what the Viennese wanted to see. The Leperello-Zerlina duet (added for the Vienna premiere, usually cut nowadays) is almost slapstick. If you see it as a comedy, then Don Giovanni not being able to score would also be quite a comic element.

As for Gilda, I guess she was not raped. But Rigoletto's plot as a whole never made a lot of sense to me really.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Dongiovanni said:


> I've seen the making of on the DVD and Jacobs gives us his vision, which is very outspoken. I doubt if there's any conductor with more historically in depth information on the da Ponte opera's. He is obsessed with tempi and has so many interesting explanations.
> 
> Attempted rape as literally told by Donna Anna in the libretto seems stranger in modern times than consensual sex. If Donna Anna was fooling around with the Don, actually getting her father killed by her own "bad" behaviour, it ads a lot more weight to her character I think, this is why so many directors chose for this option.
> 
> ...


Isn't it funny how deeply these questions have been gone into by professionals! "Oh, yes, mum, I'm a famous opera director - and I've spent literally months of my life trying to determine exactly how likely it is that one fictional character was abused by another!" lol but i guess you have to do it ...


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

mamascarlatti said:


> Rene Jacobs says that the idea of Donna Anna being willing was first postulated in the 19th century - it was definitely not seen as a possibility in Mozart's time. I think it still can add something to the mix though.


It's absolutely essential that we interpret fiction in light of the era in which it was written. I've seen "grown people" -- ha ha -- try to tell me that the ghost in Hamlet is an invention of Hamlet's madness and obsession. Wake up, folks! The ghost is seen by the guards and by Horatio, duh, not to mention that belief in ghosts was common in the Elizabethan era. And despite new "Freudian" interpretations of things (which is actually flawed 19th century psychology, Freud having been totally discredited now), sometimes the cigar is really a cigar. And yeah, Donna Anna was not a willing partner that night. I'm guessing that she had flirted with the Don earlier, as was her wont and that of most young women then, but when her chickens came home to roost, she was genuinely frightened to see ol' Don in her bedroom, looming over her like Dracula over Mina Harper.

And yeah, I'm cursed to be an English lit major, so I tend to over-analyze fiction (and generally, opera librettos are fiction).

Folks here are correct, Giovanni is meant to be a serio-comic opera, and both Mozart and Daponte knew the irony of having the infamous Don unable to score. And although the two men were socially prescient for their era, they were still bound by convention of the times in which they lived. Naturally, though, it's okay to reinterpret and update story backgrounds in light of our modern era, so long as you don't totally lose sight of the original intentions (like Olivier did in his obsessive and senselessly flawed take on Hamlet in that execrable '48 movie)... rant concluded, ha ha


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## Glissando (Nov 25, 2011)

It was consensual. If it had not been, then psychologically it would have been incompatible to have Gilda still be in love with the Duke at the end of the opera.

Although being dragged out of your house by a bunch of henchmen sounds like anyone's idea of forcible rape, what must be remembered is that Rigoletto had essentially imprisoned Gilda in their house, with the servant as overseer. Gilda probably wasn't too unhappy with the kidnapping, because she probably thought that this was the only way that the Duke and her would ever get to meet.


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## Hesoos (Jun 9, 2012)

Gilda was "convinced" or a "little" forced or used. Gilda is cheated.I think, Gilda is so young or naive that she believes and "does" all the duke says. After sex (I think not so "forced") the duke left her and she didn't understand why, but she feels ashamed. In the final act, Gilda still believes that the duke loves her until look in the house of Sparafucile. The word "raped" is too strong in this case, but the sin of cheating sexualy a young girls is somehow like to rape.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Hesoos said:


> Gilda was "convinced" or a "little" forced or used. Gilda is cheated.I think, Gilda is so young or naive that she believes and "does" all the duke says. After sex (I think not so "forced") the duke left her and she didn't understand why, but she feels ashamed. In the final act, Gilda still believes that the duke loves her until look in the house of Sparafucile. The word "raped" is too strong in this case, but the sin of cheating sexualy a young girls is somehow like to rape.


That's an interesting point. So something between rape and not rape - luring with intent, or some such thing.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

Gilda is, in every aspect, a perfect fool. She's too naïf and young. It's not her fault. She's simply simple. It's very difficult to find someone like her nowadays. In this age of the internet, it would have to be a girl really young to be this naive.

It seems to me that is was the shame that she brought to her father, more than the sexual act itself, that has caused pain (not the physical one  ). Although she was used by the Duke, she still loves him eventhough she's aware that she's disposable. And she would let herself go into Duke's arms whenever he would feel like.

Nevertheless, unlike Don Giovanni, i think the Duke went all the away (at least he had enough time: recitative + _Cortigianni_ and considering that the Duke did not cared for first base and had not time for the cigarette after...heheheh)


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

Glissando said:


> It was consensual. If it had not been, then psychologically it would have been incompatible to have Gilda still be in love with the Duke at the end of the opera.
> 
> Although being dragged out of your house by a bunch of henchmen sounds like anyone's idea of forcible rape, what must be remembered is that Rigoletto had essentially imprisoned Gilda in their house, with the servant as overseer. Gilda probably wasn't too unhappy with the kidnapping, because she probably thought that this was the only way that the Duke and her would ever get to meet.


No, sorry, I disagree with the kidnapping part. She had zero idea who was kidnapping her and would be genuinely terrified. Of course later, when she finds out that Guatier (I forget the Duke's false name) is actually the Duke, she'd then be happy, finding out that he's not only her beloved "student" but is a man of power and wealth -- understand this is set in renaissance times so feudal obedience is still pretty strong.

As for Rigoletto keeping her captive, in that era (and also during Verdi's own time, especially in Italy), young women were virtual prisoners of their families or the church. They in fact had nowhere else to go that was respectable, such as becoming independent. That wasn't possible till maybe the 19th century. Although Rigoletto is quite obsessive about Gilda's freedom, her situation wouldn't be all that unusual in the opera's timeline or Verdi's own time.

Regardless, I do agree regarding whether Gilda was raped. I stay "no" but afterward, she was "ruined", if you realize that the Duke's already married so her chances of a respectable outcome are nil. And even in Verdi's day (the opera is set a couple centuries previous), a "ruined" woman would often be disowned by her family, cast out, and her only resort might then be a shady lifestyle as a hooker or other bad career choices.

This makes Gilda seem even more naive because she has so much to lose besides her virginity. Heck, even today, we may look down on women who choose to become mistresses of rich but married men. Gilda's life would essentially be over. Yet she still obsesses on the Duke, even after she witnesses his duplicit behavior in the tavern. I don't know whether Verdi meant her to be especially bright but she's certainly not the sharpest knife in the drawer. Of course, she was reared to have very little street smarts and would be easy prey.


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

katdad said:


> Regardless, I do agree regarding whether Gilda was raped. I stay "no" but afterward, she was "ruined", if you realize that the Duke's already married so her chances of a respectable outcome are nil. And even in Verdi's day (the opera is set a couple centuries previous), a "ruined" woman would often be disowned by her family, cast out, and her only resort might then be a shady lifestyle as a hooker or other bad career choices.
> 
> This makes Gilda seem even more naive because she has so much to lose besides her virginity. Heck, even today, we may look down on women who choose to become mistresses of rich but married men. Gilda's life would essentially be over. Yet she still obsesses on the Duke, even after she witnesses his duplicit behavior in the tavern. I don't know whether Verdi meant her to be especially bright but she's certainly not the sharpest knife in the drawer. Of course, she was reared to have very little street smarts and would be easy prey.


I agree that victim, vixen, or virgin, Gilda is ruined by reputation. And perhaps that goes into her thinking in chosing her final act.

But in Gilda's defense, she was up again a formidable seducer. Even the much more worldly Maddelena, who sees right through the Duke's flattery and false promises, intercedes to save his life. In a way, Gilda is only a willing accomplice to Maddelena's scheme.


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## Hesoos (Jun 9, 2012)

For Gilda, she is not raped, she is seduced, or "used" for that she is ashamed and confused. If she thought she was raped she wouldn't think that the duke loves her still. Gilda is naive.

For Rigoletto, Gilda is raped and the duke must pay for it. Rigoletto doesn't believe that in the duke could be good intentions.

For the duke, that was fun, I think he didn't mean to "rape", just to seduce and have fun. He is not a raper, he is a seductor.I think he really likes Gilda, but he doesn't love her. Anyway, he likes all the goodlooking ladies.

For the listeners all depends!


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