# Dislike the musician, dislike the music?



## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

You're ready to enjoy a classical masterpiece, and while you know conductor X did the reference version (and you have it in your collection), you still go for conductor Y's record for no other reason than that you dislike conductor X as a person. You know the music doesn't necessarily reflect the musician's personality, but still...

it happens to me so often that I fear I'm missing out on a lot of great stuff. And I'm sure you guys will tell me in the comments that I miss out of a lot of great stuff. But if I have a personal antipathy towards a certain musician, I find it extremely hard to enjoy his recordings, no matter how famous and critically acclaimed they are.

Examples (all conductors) are Bernstein, Karajan, Solti, Szell and Toscanini. I feel various degrees of dislike for these people, for various reasons. Sometimes it's motivated by bona fide musical taste or preference, but mostly my antipathy is connected to the public personality of the conductor in question.
I usually can stand Karajan better than Bernstein, who's in the absolute no-go zone for me. So I historically missed out on Bernstein's Mahler, with some exceptions, and while I appreciate some of Karajan's work in opera and elsewhere, I don't even own any of his Beethoven cycles.
It works in the opposite direction too, I'm sure. I guess I tend to over-valuate Barbirolli, because I find him such an agreeable chap...

Does this happen to you people out there too? Surely I can't be alone in this!


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

It's hard to be exacting about such matters, but I don't think it happens to me.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

RobertJTh said:


> You're ready to enjoy a classical masterpiece, and while you know conductor X did the reference version (and you have it in your collection), you still go for conductor Y's record for no other reason than that you dislike conductor X as a person. You know the music doesn't necessarily reflect the musician's personality, but still...
> 
> it happens to me so often that I fear I'm missing out on a lot of great stuff. And I'm sure you guys will tell me in the comments that I miss out of a lot of great stuff. But if I have a personal antipathy towards a certain musician, I find it extremely hard to enjoy his recordings, no matter how famous and critically acclaimed they are.
> 
> ...


Yes. I like some earlier (1950s) HvK but avoid his later work. Thielemann is a no-go for me as I definitely have an antipathy to his public persona.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

What is the standard description of an artist, someone whose work you would like hanging on your wall but who you wouldn't want hanging out in your house? I don't care as much about the personality as I do the result. But that's just me.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

There are usually more than enough choices to keep me busy without adding those by artists who I find to be disagreeable.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

I have to admit that I cannot think of a single example of this. When it comes to "work", I tend to separate the work from the people. For example, I do not like what I have heard about Wagner as a person -- but then again I cannot claim to be all that interested in him as a person either. His orchestral genius interests me. 

What I do have a problem with are the social circles of some musical genres. Where there are codes to follow. I just cannot be around them. As a musician and composer, I sure am a hermit.

I do not dislike the people or the music, I dislike the social circles and networks. Although I well know we cannot live without them.


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

Manxfeeder said:


> What is the standard description of an artist, someone whose work you would like hanging on your wall but who you wouldn't want hanging out in your house? I don't care as much about the personality as I do the result. But that's just me.


That's a good analogy. But sometimes the personalities can't be separated from the musical product - see Reiner, a despicable human being, who intimidated and brutalized the members of his orchestra. Some say the results justify the means, but I somehow don't think truly evil people can make good music.



Becca said:


> There are usually more than enough choices to keep me busy without adding those by artists who I find to be disagreeable.


Right, we're lucky that in most cases, there isn't one version of a classical work that's above all others. So even if you filter some big names from your collection, there are always enough great alternatives.



Waehnen said:


> I have to admit that I cannot think of a single example of this. When it comes to "work", I tend to separate the work from the people. For example, I do not like what I have heard about Wagner as a person -- but then again I cannot claim to be all that interested in him as a person either. His orchestral genius interests me.
> 
> What I do have a problem with are the social circles of some musical genres. Where there are codes to follow. I just cannot be around them. As a musician and composer, I sure am a hermit.
> 
> I do not dislike the people or the music, I dislike the social circles and networks. Although I well know we cannot live without them.


Good points, and curiously enough, when I dislike a composer, it's always for musical, never for personal reasons. Wagner wasn't a nice guy, but I adore his music. If he left us some recordings of his own work as a conductor, it probably would be another matter...


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Many great conductors were pretty nasty people....but they got great results....if I avoided all of the sobs, I'd be missing out on some really great music....so I don't worry too much about the personalities.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Nobody is perfect. Every conductor, composer, pianist, violinist...every musician...has issues. We all do. I don't think I've ever boycotted any performer or composer based on their public image. There are many that I can't stand musically, but having worked for some really disagreeable people I can overlook their faults when the music making is great. There were lots conductors who were pretty rough: Reiner, Rodzinski, Szell come to mind, but I would much poorer if I didn't know their legacy. Composers like Max Reger, Alan Petterrsen, and even Joachim Raff were not the most amiable of folks. If Bernstein is a problem personally, try reading Humphry Burton's biography of him; you'll meet a very complex and misunderstood man.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

I can only summon this level of antipathy for currently living conductors, and only in egregious cases e.g. Gergiev, whose works I will not patronize and thus funnel money to him; or James Levine, for similar reasons.

When it comes to past conductors and currently living ones who are not edge cases of morality, it's all about the results on the disc. Whatever Karajan's faults, his music consistently excites me. Bernstein is hit and miss. Simon Rattle, for instance, seems like a genuinely wonderful fellow, but his music bores me to tears. Gardiner is exciting, despite the feeling the man enjoys the smell of his own farts.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Not usually. Prokofiev was a flaming a$$hole but I very much enjoy his music.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

If we were only to like the work of artists who were nice people, there wouldn't be many artists who work you could like !


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## Hogwash (5 mo ago)

This is something I struggle with. It seems best to separate the art from artist however I don’t think I could attend a performance by a Putin supporter unless I was there to protest.

Wagner is another matter altogether. While I appreciate certain qualities of his music I would be uncomfortable playing or recommending his music to others.


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## SoloYH (8 mo ago)

Subconsciously it would affect how I perceive their work. I would say more positively than negatively though, you can't really dislike something that arouses your senses even if the creator is ugly. It would be suppressing an urge.

But if the creator is unique, or positve, or something I find beautiful, I would incorporate that characteristic into the listening experience. Such as Bach, who apparently had a rumble at the bar with a basoon(?)ist? :] sounds like a fun time.

A lot of music also comes from pain and suffering, and trauma can mold a person into a bad person. Perhaps their work is the result of their suffering that made them an a*hole, something primal about their urge to create an expressive outlet.

Ultimately, I guess I'm trying to say I don't care who the creator is really. I would listen to Kim Jong Un's work if it was good.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

^^You are talking about the composer whereas this thread asks about the performers.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

I have to admit that I find most reports of composers being unequivocally terrible people to be inaccurate upon further inspection. Most people, composers included, have many sides, and are many things. There are truly very few people out there who are just complete jerks with few redeeming qualities. 

That being said, more broadly speaking, I don't really have issues with listening to music (or consuming art in general) from people/organisiations who, for one reason or another, I find morally distasteful. The only exception being, I don't wish to financially support organisations or people who will use that money to provide direct or indirect support for things I find immoral.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Here´s an example: I found out just last year that both Bernstein and Horowitz had wives -- and male lovers. The wives supposedly accepted these male lovers of their husbands.

Of course this brought to mind the question that what a strange arrangement! Monogamy is a value in our culture.

But immediately I thought: none of my business. I did not know any of these people, their inner turmoil or their social circles or their struggles, and even if I did, some things still are none of my business. Let people live their lives and sort things out with their families and friends.

I am grateful for Bernstein and Horowitz for all they have done for music. Both seemed to be intelligent and humorous, and of course very talented. More than enough for me!


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Hogwash said:


> This is something I struggle with. It seems best to separate the art from artist however I don’t think I could attend a performance by a Putin supporter unless I was there to protest.


Would you in turn protest American conductors who supported Dubya Bush? I'm not sure which national leader got more people killed but they both invaded more than one country as president. Lucky for us our media would rather focus on sexual deviants so we'll never have to agonize over the political stuff.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

There was a famous incident in Mexico where Lenny was clearly flirting with a male waiter and wife Felicia was sitting right there and was seething inside and humiliated so much so that she took the next flight back to NY. He was always quite remorseful about the way he treated her. 

There is something in the makeup of some big-time conductors that most of us just can't relate to. Bernard Haitink was married four times. Charles Dutoit - four times. Andre Previn - five! And the winner is: Edo de Waart with six. As much as I admire their music making, I cannot even begin to understand why some guys are serial husbands.


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## SoloYH (8 mo ago)

Becca said:


> ^^You are talking about the composer whereas this thread asks about the performers.



Oh you're right, I don't know enough about conductors to differentiate yet. But I'd image I wouldn't care about it much.


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## Tarneem (Jan 3, 2022)

How about you think about it this way... the music you listen to, it belongs to you! Not to the composer to the conductor or to the soloist. Belongs to you!


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## Montarsolo (5 mo ago)

I recognize the opening post. But usually I don't let that stop me from listening to their recordings. By the way, Solti doesn't belong on your list. He was a nice guy. 

Otherwise, only Giulini and Abbado will remain.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

No. I don't think I dislike any classical musician as a person. Usually I don't know enough about them anyway. The only case where I can think of reading a quasi-biography before ever listening to any recordings of the artist, was Piatigorsky funny biographical book I read as a teenager when I had just started listening to classical music. At about the same time, Bernstein was quite present on German TV; this was in the late 1980s when he was still alive and I think these were the concerts also available on laserdisc and they had brief interviews and introductions etc. So one could hardly avoid being influenced (but usually positively) by the media-curated images of these famous musicians. But I also considered reviews of particular recordings and the price tag.

Overall, I usually don't care. I don't necessarily avoid musicians who were sympathizers or in any case not dissidents in murderous regimes or who were probably guilty of at least some of the charges of personal misdemeanour (or immoral behavior that is not illegal) they were accused of. I don't know the exact circumstances and pressures. There are also temptations more likely in the positions of power many famous performers hold and it seems hardly consistent what abuse of power and popularity is accepted. (E.g. why are/were (often underage!) "groupies" in the dozens accepted as part of Rock/popular music but 5 marriages or bisexual promiscuity frowned upon in the case of classical musicians?) I don't approve either but it's none of my business and I usually don't want to know about it and often do not know about it.
I am also a bit puzzled that a conductor who is mean to orchestral musicians is described as "truly evil". For me there usually is a bit of space in between "not nice" or even a total a***hole to musicians and a murderous criminal...


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

I think I should have made the OP more clear about what causes my dislikes, I got things mixed up a bit too much.

- political, personal, or otherwise extra-musical reasons.
Curiously enough, those don't affect me too much. Take a video of Furtwängler performing the Meistersinger overture with giant Nazi flags flanking the podium, it's still a great Meistersinger overture, and I can enjoy it as that. Or the stuff mentioned above about adultery, conductors being horrible people in real life, but then again, great musicians on the podium, I don't really care about their dirty laundry.

- personal traits that somehow affect or are connected to music-making.
I find these harder to deal with. Most conductors are to a certain degree egomaniacs, it's a character quality that's a great career booster. Even the ones that have a more modest public image, Take Abbado or Walter. I've read Lebrecht's controversial book about conductors, and he makes mincemeat of that public image, proving that even Bruno Walter wasn't exactly the warm and kind-hearted guy he appeared to be. And Abbado was quite ruthless in his career decisions.
But that's all background stuff. I find it more difficult to deal with overt megalomaniac traits that do affect the public image of a conductor. Ranging from just off-putting extrovert behavior to conductors who create public shrines for themselves, and polish their image till there's no trace of sincerity and honesty left. In these cases, it's very hard to me to separate the man from the music. Sorry Lenny and Herbie.

- purely musical reasons
I guess that's the most common category, and probably doesn't belong here. Solti I don't like for musical reasons (his recordings mostly sound rather strained and superficial to me, charged with off-putting manic energy), but I don't have any problems with his person or public image. With Szell and Toscanini it's more of a mixed bag, it's a bit harder to tell if I dislike them for the same qualities that I associate with Solti - or because of the questionable methods they used to achieve their much-praised technical perfection.



mbhaub said:


> If Bernstein is a problem personally, try reading Humphry Burton's biography of him; you'll meet a very complex and misunderstood man.


I've got Joan Peyser's biography of Bernstein here, maybe I'll give it a read. I just hope it isn't a hagiography.



Kreisler jr said:


> The only case where I can think of reading a quasi-biography before ever listening to any recordings of the artist, was Piatigorsky funny biographical book I read as a teenager when I had just started listening to classical music.


Loved that book. One of the most entertaining autobiographies of a musician ever!



> I am also a bit puzzled that a conductor who is mean to orchestral musicians is described as "truly evil". For me there usually is a bit of space in between "not nice" or even a total a***hole to musicians and a murderous criminal...


I think Reiner came pretty close. Not to a murderous criminal of course, but the guy really had a screw loose.


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## ribonucleic (Aug 20, 2014)

mbhaub said:


> Bernard Haitink was married four times. Charles Dutoit - four times. Andre Previn - five! And the winner is: Edo de Waart with six. As much as I admire their music making, I cannot even begin to understand why some guys are serial husbands.


A female writer once observed that some men express their hatred of women by marrying a lot of them.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

ribonucleic said:


> A female writer once observed that some men express their hatred of women by marrying a lot of them.


Personally I think that the marriage count says a lot more about the personalities of the men in question.
I might go further and say that wives 4, 5 and 6 maybe guilty of wishful thinking!


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

RobertJTh said:


> - personal traits that somehow affect or are connected to music-making.
> I find these harder to deal with. Most conductors are to a certain degree egomaniacs, it's a character quality that's a great career booster. Even the ones that have a more modest public image, Take Abbado or Walter. I've read Lebrecht's controversial book about conductors, and he makes mincemeat of that public image, proving that even Bruno Walter wasn't exactly the warm and kind-hearted guy he appeared to be. And Abbado was quite ruthless in his career decisions.
> But that's all background stuff. I find it more difficult to deal with overt megalomaniac traits that do affect the public image of a conductor. Ranging from just off-putting extrovert behavior to conductors who create public shrines for themselves, and polish their image till there's no trace of sincerity and honesty left. In these cases, it's very hard to me to separate the man from the music. Sorry Lenny and Herbie.


I think that us Europeans have more trouble with people branding and advertising themselves and being loud about themselves. In the US people seem to have more tolerance for people appearing to be self-centred because in a way it is essential in making a living there. The people in the US have learnt to separate the necessary branding and selling talk from the people behind it, I think.

In general I do not mind people branding themselves if I can watch if from afar. As long as I have my own space and freedom, I am happy.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

ribonucleic said:


> A female writer once observed that some men express their hatred of women by marrying a lot of them.


One might want to keep in mind that for each and every _one_ such guy one needs a handful (or in the case of mistresses and groupies many more) women who play along with it. It's not that they had been forced to marry these men...


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## Fantastico (5 mo ago)

1. You claim that you find a musician's beliefs and behaviour impacts on your experience of listening to a recording, yet you find Karajan more tolerable than Bernstein?? [Incidentally, I love the recordings of both Karajan and Bernstein.]

2. Where do you cut the line? Or in other words, how do you vet the musician before they are allowed to be played in your house? Do they have to satisfy particular criteria, or is your personal hatred sufficient?

(3. Some people on this thread have a problem with men with multiple marriages?? How very, erm, quaint!)

More generally, I think there is a strong fashion in segments of Western societies (especially the US, but increasing in Europe) to `package' music by wrapping it up in intellectual and cultural baggage until they become completely intertwined, with the labels often becoming more important than the music itself. Examples include the labelling of music based on the behaviour of its composer or performers, or perhaps their political beliefs, their ethnic background, sex, or even what they look like. When music is discussed in the public sphere (usually by non-musicians, but of course not necessarily) it seems increasingly common to hear these labels being discussed rather than the music itself. This sometimes has use intellectually - it can be interesting to learn such 'background material', or become aware of things you didn't know beforehand. It is even possible that one might experience some subconscious change of attitude to their recordings. But if you are unable to at least try to separate this baggage from the music (I think this is usually possible) then I lose some hope. Surely you can say things like 'I like X about Y but not Z', without societal pressures forcing you to say 'because of Z I do not like Y'. The latter is very popular at the moment, but I have some hope the former will win out in the end.

Or to cut it short, a recording of music speaks for itself. If one does not believe this, then with my value system at least (which I hope agrees with yours to a large extent), and forcing myself to make judgements on dead people I have no immediate connection to (which I am slightly sceptical of anyway), there would be very little music of any kind one would want to listen to.


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## John O (Jan 16, 2021)

Becca said:


> Yes. I like some earlier (1950s) HvK but avoid his later work. Thielemann is a no-go for me as I definitely have an antipathy to his public persona.


You preferred him when he was still a Nazi? (joke)


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Fantastico said:


> Or to cut it short, a recording of music speaks for itself. If one does not believe this, then with my value system at least (which I hope agrees with yours to a large extent), and forcing myself to make judgements on dead people I have no immediate connection to (which I am slightly sceptical of anyway), there would be very little music of any kind one would want to listen to.


Buying the music in whatever form puts money in the hands of the person who did it (or his estate) ... why should I enrich those who I dislike? Admittedly it isn't much but if I have a choice, I will exercise it.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

if you don't like somebody, why not pirate their music? then you're ripping them off!

I honestly can't think of any musicians that I don't listen to because I don't like them. Well, maybe Tripping Daisy. They used to live down the street from me and the singer is an a-hole. But I wasn't really into their music to begin with


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## Fantastico (5 mo ago)

Becca said:


> Buying the music in whatever form puts money in the hands of the person who did it (or his estate) ... why should I enrich those who I dislike? Admittedly it isn't much but if I have a choice, I will exercise it.


As far as I am aware, buying a record of Karajan does not financially benefit Karajan....

For musicians you do like, go ahead and fund the record companies, which are just morally brilliant.

Edit: in reply to Becca's reply below - a) surely it is only Karajan who you object to giving money to - what has his estate done which is so bad (other than being as undeserving as any other)? b) "companies don't have morals". Erm OK but you are falsely equating "a company is morally bad" with "a company's morals are bad".


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Fantastico said:


> As far as I am aware, buying a record of Karajan does not financially benefit Karajan....
> 
> For musicians you do like, go ahead and fund the record companies, which are just morally brilliant.


Please read all of my post...
"...(or his estate)..."

Companies don't have morals, people do.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I can't think of many cases which stand out as being really problematic, where a musician's actions had a real negative impact on people's lives.

The only two I can think of are Karl Bohm and James Levine. I've retained two recordings by them. When I purchased them, I wasn't aware of the controversy surrounding them. Its likely I'd make a different choice now that I'm more aware about what they did.

I think a lot of this is about image rather than morals or ethics. I find it interesting about how many listeners can be appalled by Lang Lang choosing to wear a loud suit, but they say they are okay with the Nazi propaganda which has Furtwangler conducting to a rent a crowd of workers or an audience full of war criminals.

I think there's a lesson here in how music can be manipulated and be used as a facade to hide the most evil ideologies. The performance of Beethoven's 9th at Mauthausen concentration camp by the Vienna Phil about 20 years ago sought to put some of the ghosts to bed on this matter. The choir included survivors.

As for the behaviour of musicians towards eachother as a workplace issue (such as bullying), again I think that music will inevitably reflect the changes in society. Whatever their stature, its no longer acceptable for musicians to behave like they did in the past. Even then, not everyone working in music behaved like that.

In terms of my own music collecting, I don't feel I'm missing out by not listening to Furtwangler for example, because I'm not much interested in mono recordings. Perhaps that lets me off the hook, similar to how I feel no compulsion to listen to Wagner because I dislike opera.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

I've listened to enough artists speak to realize that like many experts in a very specific subject matter, they frequently make idiots of themselves when they try to speak outside of their field.

This doesn't apply to everyone or even most, just to say that I've long accepted that being a brilliant artist doesn't make you a good person, or even a smart one.

Really it only bothers me when people raise great artists up as hero figures, or act like their great art _excuses_ things they do.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)




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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_It's hard to be exacting about such matters, but I don't think it happens to me. _

I think that's probably true for me, too. There are plenty of performers I don't care for but am open to hearing or buying something they do better than others I Iike. What generally mitigates this is there is almost always other versions of the same music available on record by other performers.

Not to personalize this discussion but the way you've framed it seems to me the issue here is more with you than any performer. It sounds like you've closed your mind to certain performers for various reasons. Maybe that's where your focus should be.


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## Fritzb43 (Mar 29, 2020)

This whole discussion is beyond silly - a topic more fitted for People magazine. It's about the music, not the conductor, folks. Who cares about the conductor and why should we.
A better question is: does the conductor interpret the music in a manner which suits you, the listener? The whole personality issue is shallow and impertinent.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Fritzb43 said:


> This whole discussion is beyond silly - a topic more fitted for People magazine. It's about the music, not the conductor, folks. Who cares about the conductor and why should we.
> A better question is: does the conductor interpret the music in a manner which suits you, the listener? The whole personality issue is shallow and impertinent.


You have a right to your opinion but not the right to demean those who feel differently.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I love Charles Dutoit's conducting, but if the sexual harassment allegations are true, which I think is very likely, then he's deplorable, but doesn't affect my liking for him as an artist. Wagner and Beethoven are supposedly some tough characters to like, but were great composers, while Bruckner, despite his great faith, I find his music less interesting.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

Becca said:


> You have a right to your opinion but not the right to demean those who feel differently.


Yes-whether or not one's enjoyment is affected by the artist being some sort of bad character is only a matter of one's own moral compass, and that's something only you can answer yourself.


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## Fantastico (5 mo ago)

Some further musings I had to actually get back to the original post. [I understand that for some reason the poster only objects to artists who in the making of the art were horrible - but I just can't believe that they can separate Karajan's personality into a music-making part and a Nazi part.]

1. Do you find the same with architecture? Would you avoid looking at the White House because it was built by slaves? (If you do not like this example I can furnish you with others).

2. Do you experience the same feelings when you look at paintings? [Picasso for example.]

3. What about films with 'problematic' directors or actors? Is John Wayne out? (again many examples to choose if you do not like this one).

4. And of course literature. For example, I recently read Brideshead Revisited, a great novel, but Evelyn Waugh was by many accounts problematic.

5. It might be worth noting that scientists don't have this sort of problem. They don't reject the ideas of X because X was a bad person. You might say something like 'yes but science is not for your enjoyment'. But for scientists it often is.

For me, there are perhaps a few cases where my personal revulsion of an artist _might _perhaps affect my appreciation of the object under consideration. There are certainly some extreme examples of (comparatively unknown) composers I would not play for enjoyment. But usually I find it possible and necessary to separate the art from its maker.

For many people including myself, music speaks directly at an emotional level. When I listen to music I hear the soundwaves, not the artists. This is the power of music - it lives in some abstract space with no direct contact with humanity or morals - it is what binds us even when we might otherwise have no connection. I personally think it is somewhat shallow for someone to disagree with this (even if they object to my phrasing of it).

[not to mention when it comes to conductors - there are all the musicians in the orchestra as well to consider! If it turned out that person X in the second violins was a murderer, would you still have trouble listening to it?]


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I think there's a number of ways of looking at this. One is that cases where the person being accused is alive (e.g. Dutoit, Domingo), its obviously best to avoid trial by media and let the legal process take over. That respects all parties involved, the accused and the victims.

This is harder to achieve today than it was in the past, when there was an unwritten rule that saw the media drawing an invisible line between the private and public lives of celebrities. Even then, a few people fell through the net (e.g. Eugene Goossens). Today, social media complicates things even further.

In historical cases, such as musicians during the Holocaust, the issue is to have solid research, which involves gathering and surveying what evidence remains. The aim is to get a fully rounded picture of what occured, and although this involves researchers giving opinions and making judgements about what they know, it still shouldn't involve too much bias.

I think the difference between present and historical cases is that concerning the former, the impact will be on people who are still living, whereas in the latter this issue is to give an accurate picture of the past.

These matters are inevitably complicated, and they are also very emotional. I think that the discussion isn't limited to what music we choose to listen to or avoid, its also about how we want things to be different today.

In terms of history, for example, the racism which the likes of Mendelssohn, Mahler and Schoenberg had to live with shouldn't have a place in today's music industry. In terms of allegations involving workplace bullying, harassment and sexual assault, its obvious that today there are standards which mean that musicians, particularly those in positions of power, are accountable for their actions towards their colleagues.


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## FrankE (Jan 13, 2021)

mbhaub said:


> There is something in the makeup of some big-time conductors that most of us just can't relate to. Bernard Haitink was married four times. Charles Dutoit - four times. Andre Previn - five! And the winner is: Edo de Waart with six. As much as I admire their music making, I cannot even begin to understand why some guys are serial husbands.


Extensive travel and night time work is a strain on many marriages.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

RobertJTh said:


> f I have a personal antipathy towards a certain musician, I find it extremely hard to enjoy his recordings, no matter how famous and critically acclaimed they are.
> 
> Examples (all conductors) are Bernstein, Karajan, Solti, Szell and Toscanini. I feel various degrees of dislike for these people, for various reasons..


I enjoy Bernstein and Karajan. I started with classical music during the 1980s when I was a teenager and caught the tail end of their careers and though they were both elderly at the time; both were still very active, larger than life, recording dozens of albums to their last breath, and remaining dominant in the classical music charts (and I believe that they continued to out-sell most other conductors posthumously in the 1990s and early 2000s). 

I eventually learned that Karajan had joined the Nazi party back in the 1930s, and the evidence shows that it was probably a career move, and in this regard, Karajan didn't seem to share any enthusiasm for Nazi politics. Even though he was Germany's greatest conductor (apart from Furtwangler); by the end of the WW 2, Karajan's relationship with the Nazi establishment seems to have been shaky; according to some sources. I know that doesn't change Karajan's Nazi membership status and it does look bad. 

So with Karajan there's that; but what did Bernstein ever do?


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

Coach G said:


> So with Karajan there's that; but what did Bernstein ever do?


In my case, it's not about politics, that's what the thread seems to have gyrated towards. It's about personalities. In my previous post I said I don't even care about a musician's political compass. People can still be good, sympathetic and have great, agreeable personalities when being trapped in a totalitarian political system and being forced to collaborate. Hating Karajan because he joined the Nazi Party would be the same as hating Shostakovich because he joined the Communist Party.
What bothers me much more is an egocentric, megalomaniac musician who puts himself in front of the composer or displays other characteristics of extreme vanity and self-delusion. Like I said before, I find it hard to enjoy the products of such personalities, no matter how objectively excellent they may be.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Coach G said:


> what did Bernstein ever do?


committed blasphemy


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

RobertJTh said:


> In my case, it's not about politics, that's what the thread seems to have gyrated towards. It's about personalities. In my previous post I said I don't even care about a musician's political compass. People can still be good, sympathetic and have great, agreeable personalities when being trapped in a totalitarian political system and being forced to collaborate. Hating Karajan because he joined the Nazi Party would be the same as hating Shostakovich because he joined the Communist Party.
> What bothers me much more [about Karajan and Bernstein] is an egocentric, megalomaniac musician who puts himself in front of the composer or displays other characteristics of extreme vanity and self-delusion. Like I said before, I find it hard to enjoy the products of such personalities, no matter how objectively excellent they may be.


No doubt, Bernstein was pompous and a show-off. But what a great conductor, composer, pianist, and teacher he was! Yes, Bernstein's musical interpretations are self-indulgent. And almost always when Bernstein lectures on a certain composer, he projects too much of himself onto the composer, relying on his own feelings as opposed to what the composer really meant to say. Bernstein's love for music, though; his sincerity, his unbounded enthusiasm and energy is what I think makes Bernstein so great and likable.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

> What bothers me much more is an egocentric, megalomaniac musician who puts himself in front of the composer or displays other characteristics of extreme vanity and self-delusion. Like I said before, I find it hard to enjoy the products of such personalities, no matter how objectively excellent they may be.


I think its a bit alarmist to label musicians like that. Obviously, a musician has artistic license in how he decides to interpret a score. Jorge Bolet talked about the process through which a performer comes to interpret a piece in his individual way, and how this could come into conflict with those wanting a more strict interpretation:

_"Am I being too presumptive, that I know that particular creation of that composer even better than he did? After a lifetime of involvement with the work, making it into an absolutely personal part of your whole musical being and your whole musical thinking."_


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