# What if Beethoven never went deaf?



## oca2074 (Oct 29, 2018)

How would his music and all of western classical music after him have changed? Would it be dramatically different or relatively similar in trajectory of development?


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

It’s conceivable that his music in his 3rd period would not have been as profound. But, he would have still been a giant given the music he was creating before his deafness.


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## oca2074 (Oct 29, 2018)

Not just his 3rd period, Beethoven struggled with deafness throughout his career infusing his works with those turbulent emotions, probably single-handedly leading a unique idiom as a result. Think of Eroica which would not have been written. I'd say the changes start with his middle heroic period.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Beethoven's deafness was considered to have contributed to his famous unsociableness (though he was not always so). It certainly ended his performing career, costing him a good portion of his working income. He never suggested, though, that it affected his composing in any way. I've only seen that claim from a couple of 19th-century sources, complaining about a few of his more astringent late works.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

KenOC said:


> Beethoven's deafness was considered to have contributed to his famous unsociableness (though he was not always so). It certainly ended his performing career, costing him a good portion of his working income. He never suggested, though, that it affected his composing in any way. I've only seen that claim from a couple of 19th-century sources, complaining about a few of his more astringent late works.


I'm not sure that Beethoven himself would have been able to objectively judge the effect of the deafness on his music. He was so confident in his talent that my guess is that he believed that it would overcome anything. But I also believe that deafness caused him to go even deeper into his mind to create the late quartets and other music of his last 10 years.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

The shape of the trajectory may have been different, but not the substance. Although you can trace the beginning of the "Heroic" period to his realization of the irrevocability of his deafness, I think it would have happened sooner or later anyway because he was a compulsive experimenter -- and had the gifts to make the outcomes meaningful.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I see two parts to this question. One concerns his nature and mood. Would he have been happier and more convivial if he had enjoyed better hearing? The other concerns technical aspects of his musical vision. I am not at all qualified to answer this second question but it seems to me that his inner ear would still have heard what he was doing even as his ability to hear it in reality declined. As for his mood and "distinctive nature", who can say? He might have made more enemies and got himself arrested for failing to restrain views that were too radical. Or his performing career might have taken over his time and whatever need he had for recognition. It is interesting to imagine great composers in slightly parallel universes.


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## Machiavel (Apr 12, 2010)

I don't know to what extent it's true but I have read somewhere that his only pupil said that although he was deaf he had extensive sketches up to his ninth symphony. Was not Beethoven working on many works at the same time, having sketches, themes completed and then he would move to something else knowing the base of his works and ideas were done. I have to find the book with the quotes.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Machiavel said:


> I don't know to what extent it's true but I have read somewhere that his only pupil said that although he was deaf he had extensive sketches up to his ninth symphony. Was not Beethoven working on many works at the same time, having sketches, themes completed and then he would move to something else knowing the base of his works and ideas were done. I have to find the book with the quotes.


Beethoven worked on his 9th Symphony for about five years. There were sketches all over the place because he was meanwhile writing a bevy of other works, including the last three piano sonatas, the Op. 119 Bagatelles, the Diabelli Variations, and of course the Missa Solemnis. It's been estimated that he spent about two years of the five actually working on the 9th.

Yet more sketches were made since he was planning, early on, not one but two symphonies, quite different in character. When he died he had a number of major projects in mind, including a big oratorio and an opera on Faust, but I don't know if any sketches survive.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Read a book called Beethoven's Hair it gives some possible causes of deafness


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

oca2074 said:


> How would his music and all of western classical music after him have changed? Would it be dramatically different or relatively similar in trajectory of development?


I believe that without his deafness he would still have many innovative masterpieces, but with less dramatic appeal. He would be much more prolific too, I think.


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

oca2074 said:


> Not just his 3rd period, Beethoven struggled with deafness throughout his career infusing his works with those turbulent emotions, probably single-handedly leading a unique idiom as a result. Think of Eroica which would not have been written. I'd say the changes start with his middle heroic period.


The emotions of Beethoven's work is a direct or maybe a indirect result of his deafness. I call this emotion Beethoven's FIRE! I think if he is not deaf, the flames of the FIRE would be to a much lesser degree. To this day, the FIRE is what it is, history cannot be changed.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Allerius said:


> I believe that without his deafness he would still have many innovative masterpieces, but with less dramatic appeal. He would be much more prolific too, I think.


Beethoven didn't lose his hearing in a serious way until well after writing the Eroica (ca 1805). He performed the premieres of his 4th Piano Concerto and the Choral Fantasy successfully in 1808, although he stopped performing publicly after that. Czerny claims that Beethoven could still hear speech and music normally until 1812. Around 1814 however, by the age of 44, he was almost totally deaf. If Czerny is correct (and he's a very reliable witness) Beethoven's hearing, while impaired, was quite usable throughout his entire "middle period."

Sir George Grove speculated that the less-than-distinct return of the main theme at the recap of the first movement of the 8th Symphony (1812) was perhaps a sign of his advancing deafness. However, it seems unlikely that his hearing problems had much effect on his music prior to that.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

pcnog11 said:


> I call this emotion Beethoven's FIRE! I think if he is not deaf, the flames of the FIRE would be to a much lesser degree. To this day, the FIRE is what it is, history cannot be changed.


I cordially disagree. If it was only fire, I think that his music would have been forgotten long time ago. For me, Beethoven's music is about an ample array of emotions associated with the many innovations and complexities that it has. Fire, as you put, is for me just one aspect of his oeuvre.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

"Beethoven didn't lose his hearing in a serious way until well after writing the Eroica (ca 1805)."

Surely, Beethoven's *Heiligenstadt Testament* is worth considering with regard to his deafness. Written in *1802* when he was 31, he writes that he had retreated from society, isolated himself, because of his deafness and that the problem started 6 years before that. He was in suicidal despair over what he felt was the hopelessness of his condition, and the problem got only worse as he got older. It's also possible that he started writing this testament as early as 28 years of age, finished it at the age of 31, discovered only after his death, and that he felt his condition was bad enough that it was a humiliation experience:

For my brothers Carl and [Johann] Beethoven.

Oh you men who think or say that I am malevolent, stubborn, or misanthropic, how greatly do you wrong me. You do not know the secret cause which makes me seem that way to you. From childhood on, my heart and soul have been full of the tender feeling of goodwill, and I was even inclined to accomplish great things. But, think that for six years now I have been hopelessly afflicted, made worse by senseless physicians, from year to year deceived with hopes of improvement, finally compelled to face the prospect of a lasting malady (whose cure will take years or, perhaps, be impossible). Though born with a fiery, active temperament, even susceptible to the diversions of society, I was soon compelled to isolate myself, to live life alone. If at times I tried to forget all this, oh how harshly was I flung back by the doubly sad experience of my bad hearing. Yet it was impossible for me to say to people, "Speak louder, shout, for I am deaf." Ah, how could I possibly admit an infirmity in the one sense which ought to be more perfect in me than others, a sense which I once possessed in the highest perfection, a perfection such as few in my profession enjoy or ever have enjoyed. - Oh I cannot do it; therefore forgive me when you see me draw back when I would have gladly mingled with you. My misfortune is doubly painful to me because I am bound to be misunderstood; for me there can be no relaxation with my fellow men, no refined conversations, no mutual exchange of ideas. I must live almost alone, like one who has been banished; I can mix with society only as much as true necessity demands. If I approach near to people a hot terror seizes upon me, and I fear being exposed to the danger that my condition might be noticed. Thus it has been during the last six months which I have spent in the country. By ordering me to spare my hearing as much as possible, my intelligent doctor almost fell in with my own present frame of mind, though sometimes I ran counter to it by yielding to my desire for companionship. But what a humiliation for me when someone standing next to me heard a flute in the distance and I heard nothing, or someone standing next to me heard a shepherd singing and again I heard nothing. Such incidents drove me almost to despair; a little more of that and I would have ended my life - it was only my art that held me back. Ah, it seemed to me impossible to leave the world until I had brought forth all that I felt was within me. So I endured this wretched existence - truly wretched for so susceptible a body, which can be thrown by a sudden change from the best condition to the very worst. - Patience, they say, is what I must now choose for my guide, and I have done so - I hope my determination will remain firm to endure until it pleases the inexorable Parcae to break the thread. Perhaps I shall get better, perhaps not; I am ready. - Forced to become a philosopher already in my twenty-eighth year, - oh it is not easy, and for the artist much more difficult than for anyone else. - Divine One, thou seest my inmost soul thou knowest that therein dwells the love of mankind and the desire to do good. - Oh fellow men, when at some point you read this, consider then that you have done me an injustice; someone who has had misfortune man console himself to find a similar case to his, who despite all the limitations of Nature nevertheless did everything within his powers to become accepted among worthy artists and men. - You, my brothers Carl and [Johann], as soon as I am dead, if Dr. Schmid is still alive, ask him in my name to describe my malady, and attach this written documentation to his account of my illness so that so far as it possible at least the world may become reconciled to me after my death. - At the same time, I declare you two to be the heirs to my small fortune (if so it can be called); divide it fairly; bear with and help each other. What injury you have done me you know was long ago forgiven. To you, brother Carl, I give special thanks for the attachment you have shown me of late. It is my wish that you may have a better and freer life than I have had. Recommend virtue to your children; it alone, not money, can make them happy. I speak from experience; this was what upheld me in time of misery. Thanks to it and to my art, I did not end my life by suicide - Farewell and love each other - I thank all my friends, particularly Prince Lichnowsky and Professor Schmid - I would like the instruments from Prince L. to be preserved by one of you, but not to be the cause of strife between you, and as soon as they can serve you a better purpose, then sell them. How happy I shall be if can still be helpful to you in my grave - so be it. - With joy I hasten towards death. - If it comes before I have had the chance to develop all my artistic capacities, it will still be coming too soon despite my harsh fate, and I should probably wish it later - yet even so I should be happy, for would it not free me from a state of endless suffering? - Come when thou wilt, I shall meet thee bravely. - Farewell and do not wholly forget me when I am dead; I deserve this from you, for during my lifetime I was thinking of you often and of ways to make you happy - be so -

Ludwig van Beethoven
Heiglnstadt,
October 6th, 1802


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

I don't know enough to engage with the debate over when B's deafness really kicked in. But I bet the last half-dozen piano sonatas would have been less innovative and pensive if his hearing had been 100%


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Larkenfield said:


> "Beethoven didn't lose his hearing in a serious way until well after writing the Eroica (ca 1805)."
> 
> Surely, Beethoven's *Heiligenstadt Testament* is worth considering with regard to his deafness. Written in *1802* when he was 31, he writes that he had retreated from society, isolated himself, because of his deafness and that the problem started 6 years before that. He was in suicidal despair...


This is absolutely correct. There is independent evidence of his getting treatment, probably useless, for his hearing problem in the 1790s. Obviously the problem was serious for Beethoven! Still, it seems to me that his hearing was still quite functional for musical purposes, both composing and performing, until well after 1805.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

KenOC said:


> This is absolutely correct. There is independent evidence of his getting treatment, probably useless, for his hearing problem in the 1790s. Obviously the problem was serious for Beethoven! Still, it seems to me that his hearing was still quite functional for musical purposes, both composing and performing, until well after 1805.


According to the website http://www.lvbeethoven.com/Bio/BiographyDeafness.html, Beethoven seems to have lost about 60% of his hearing by 1801. This seems _a lot_ in my opinion and may have not only muddled him physically but also psychologically (he did think about suicide after all), and this may have yes interfered in his career as a composer already by the end of the 18th century, as it did to his career as a virtuoso. Beethoven seems to have tried to hide his deafness, so perhaps Czerny wasn't aware of it until 1812.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

We really don't know. One thing is probably certain that he'd have continued a lucrative career as a pianist. So just how that would have effected his composition no-one knows.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I couldn't even begin to speculate on this. All I know is that he left a legacy of music that to me is indispensable. I rarely use the word 'genius' but.........


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Let's just be glad he didn't go blind as well. With all the lead he was consuming. Knowing his temper, I don't think anyone would have stuck around for long transcribing for him


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Allerius said:


> According to the website http://www.lvbeethoven.com/Bio/BiographyDeafness.html, Beethoven seems to have lost about 60% of his hearing by 1801. This seems _a lot_ in my opinion and may have not only muddled him physically but also psychologically (he did think about suicide after all), and this may have yes interfered in his career as a composer already by the end of the 18th century, as it did to his career as a virtuoso. Beethoven seems to have tried to hide his deafness, so perhaps Czerny wasn't aware of it until 1812.


Carl Czerny, then a child of ten, met Beethoven in early 1801. He later recalled:

"Beethoven himself wore a morning coat of some longhaired, dark gray material, and trousers to match, so that he at once recalled to me the picture in Campe's 'Robinson Crusoe,' which I was reading at the time. His coal black hair, cut a la Titus, bristled shaggily about his head. His beard-he had not been shaved for several days-made the lower part of his already brown face still darker. I also noticed with that visual quickness peculiar to children that he had cotton which seemed to have been steeped in a yellowish liquid, in his ears. At that time, however, he did not give the least evidence of deafness."

http://raptusassociation.org/czerny_e2.html

That "60% hearing loss by 1801" was an estimate by a French doctor in the 1920s, and may not have a strong basis. I would think that young Czerny would have easily noticed Beethoven's deafness in that case.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

More on Beethoven’s deafness, from Alexander Wheelock Thayer's massive biography (which is still published):

"And his hearing-how was it with that? A question not to be answered to full satisfaction. It is clear that the Notizen of Wegeler and Ries, the Biographie (first editions) of Schindler, and especially the papers from Beethoven's own hand printed in those volumes, have given currency to a very exaggerated idea of the progress of his infirmity. On the other hand, Seyfried as evidently errs in the other direction; and yet Carl Czerny, both in his published and manuscripts notices, goes even farther. For instance, he writes to Jahn: "Although he had suffered from pains in his ears and the like ever since 1800, he still heard speech and music perfectly well until nearly 1812," and adds in confirmation: "As late as the years 1811-1812 I studied with him and he corrected with great care, as well as ten years before." This, however, proves nothing, as Beethoven performed feats of this kind still more remarkable down to the last year of his life. Beethoven's Lamentation, the testament of 1802, is one extreme, the statements of Seyfried and Czerny the other; the truth lies somewhere between." (Thayer: 373).


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Or, as James Thurber once explored: What if Grant had been drinking at Appomattox?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Allerius said:


> According to the website, Beethoven seems to have lost about 60% of his hearing by 1801.


Beethoven still performed as the soloist at the premier of his Piano Concerto No.4 in G Op.58 in December of 1808. I think, early on, Beethoven was freaking out to find out about his hearing loss, as described in his letters in 1801. He was afraid his might lose his hearing completely in a matter of a few years, but as time went on, he was relieved his hearing deteriorated pretty slowly and gradually, and that he still had time to express himself in music.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Beethoven complained of severe tinnitus which can be psychologically debilitating to anyone let alone a composer at Beethoven’s level. It’s possible that he had somewhat useful hearing -over and above the din of the tinnitus- later than is usually reported.


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