# Why does society think musicians are expendable?



## Gordontrek

So my sister, a superb concert violinist with YEARS of classical training, was on tap to play at a wedding with her boyfriend, a superb concert pianist ALSO with YEARS of classical training. In JANUARY they had agreed over e-mail with the people the time and place, and it was set for this coming Saturday. 
A month after that, they tried to contact the people to confirm. No answers. A month after that (today actually), they contacted the people again. What did they say? 
"We haven't heard from you in a month, so we decided to go a different direction with music. Sorry for the inconvenience."
In my relatively few years upon God's green Earth I never cease to be astonished at the way people treat musicians. We're not voodoo artists who pull notes out of a hat, nor are all of us amateur hobbyists who can barely read chord symbols and tablature. This is our CAREER! We take our craft seriously, have spent a ridiculous amount of sweat, tears, and MONEY to become the musicians that we are. No, of course we don't mind if you dump us on a whim for "a different direction!" It should be noted that my sister has the legal right to take these clods to court, but a. it's not worth the trouble and b. Why make the musicians they currently have suffer the same indignity. 
Sorry for ranting! This type of thing just really gets my blood boiling. Kinda feels good to vent though!


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## DavidA

It's not just musicians who are treated like this. It's a general feature of the society we live in.


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## GreenMamba

I don't know whether DavidA is right about society in general (I suspect this sort of inconsiderateness has always been with us), but I really don't think it has anything to do with musicians.

EDIT: I'm just repeating what DavidA said. So he is right.


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## Weston

Creative people in general are at risk because most people perceive what they do as fun. As an illustrator I was frequently expected to work for free, at least at first -- you know, for exposure. 

People die of exposure.


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## Woodduck

"Ooooh! A piano player! Thelma tells me you've played with Philadelphia Orchestra!"

"Yes, I played the Tchaikovsky concerto last season."

"I'll bet you're pretty good."

"Well, I..." 

"Won't you give us a little music to liven up the party? Just a little of that classical stuff?"

("Grrrrrrrr...!")


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## KenOC

I used to frequent a rather fancy restaurant with a live pianist. He seemed a little mentally ill but was quite talented. I'd give him challenges: "Let's hear Chopin's funeral march in the style of Shostakovich!" And yes, he'd do it, usually quite well and sometimes with astonishing results. He seemed to enjoy it, though it cost me plenty to keep stuffing his tip jar.

Now that I'm off the expense account I never go there. I often wonder what became of him.


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## DavidA

The other thng is that good muscians are quite plentiful these days, unless you're (say) a Wagnerian heldentenor. Just think of the huge numbers of brilliant musicians in competitions who get nowhere. And they are the tip of the iceberg. Hence it is quite easy to go elsewhere.


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## KenOC

Gordontrek said:


> ...We're not voodoo artists who pull notes out of a hat, nor are all of us amateur hobbyists who can barely read chord symbols and tablature. This is our CAREER! We take our craft seriously, have spent a ridiculous amount of sweat, tears, and MONEY to become the musicians that we are.


Musicians, unless they have salaried positions with orchestras, live in the "gig economy" that is becoming quite the thing now (though nothing new to music). Their frustrations are many and their remedies are few. Most composers have lived this way historically.

Beethoven, for instance, weary of economic insecurity, accepted a position as Kapellmeister to Napoleon's brother in Cassel in 1808. Aristocrats in Vienna, anxious not to lose him, offered him a generous guaranteed annual stipend, with no stipulations at all, to stay in Vienna. Sadly, not all musicians can be Beethovens.


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## DavidA

KenOC said:


> *Musicians, unless they have salaried positions with orchestras, live in the "gig economy" that is becoming quite the thing now *(though nothing new to music). Their frustrations are many and their remedies are few. Most composers have lived this way historically.
> 
> Beethoven, for instance, weary of economic insecurity, accepted a position as Kapellmeister to Napoleon's brother in Cassel in 1808. Aristocrats in Vienna, anxious not to lose him, offered him a generous guaranteed annual stipend, with no stipulations at all, to stay in Vienna. Sadly, not all musicians can be Beethovens.


Yes to their cost. My son recently went half way round the world to play at a gig with a band only to find it had been cancelled when they got there! In these circumstances there is no recourse to getting the money promised.


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## Weston

KenOC said:


> I used to frequent a rather fancy restaurant with a live pianist. He seemed a little mentally ill but was quite talented. I'd give him challenges: "Let's hear Chopin's funeral march in the style of Shostakovich!" And yes, he'd do it, usually quite well and sometimes with astonishing results. He seemed to enjoy it, though it cost me plenty to keep stuffing his tip jar.
> 
> Now that I'm off the expense account I never go there. I often wonder what became of him.


Maybe it was Bruce Adolphe of Piano Puzzler fame. His show does exactly that. It's fun to play along and try to guess the often heavily disguised tune and the composer style he's channeling. The guy is brilliant at what he does. (No noticeable mental illness though.)


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## hpowders

Watch Judge Judy, Gordontrek and you will see that many people are basically thoughtless and insensitive, whether it's toward musicians, wedding planners and photographers, live-in boyfriends and girlfriends, parents, grandparents, landlords, etc;

Musicians are simply part of a long, long line.


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## Manxfeeder

As is the general theme here, I agree; our society is inconsiderate in general. I'm a freelance court reporter, and I have the same problem. The worst is when they schedule you, you show up and dedicate time and expense, sometimes sleepless nights, to meeting their requirements, and three months later they still are arguing whether they should pay you. Some nameless lawyer is doing that to me now, which is why I'm feeling pretty chafed.


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## Bulldog

In today's world, every person is expendable. However, I have a little different take on the wedding story. The event was not about musicians playing in a recital or concert hall; the main characters were the two people getting married.


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## dgee

It's supply and demand! Lots of supply (main issue) and, for "gigs" like weddings etc, the consumer doesn't understand quality in the way musicians do and/or doesn't put a premium on it. It's easy to either find someone who can be paid less or won't need to be paid - and if you can't, it's easy to decide that's unreasonable and not get live musicians at all

So, yeah, musicians are expendable - _PURE AND SIMPLE_


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## Morimur

dgee said:


> So, yeah, musicians are expendable - _PURE AND SIMPLE_


All artists are deemed expendable.


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## arpeggio

When I first read this I thought this might be an interesting topic.

Then I read some of remarks.

I think if I tried to relate some of my experiences here it would go against many the remarks that have been submitted so far so I think I will pass. I think some will think I was making this stuff up.


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## Gordontrek

arpeggio said:


> I think if I tried to relate some of my experiences here it would go against many the remarks that have been submitted so far so I think I will pass. I think some will think I was making this stuff up.


Aww come on! Let's hear it!


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## Gordontrek

dgee said:


> It's supply and demand! Lots of supply (main issue) and, for "gigs" like weddings etc, the consumer doesn't understand quality in the way musicians do and/or doesn't put a premium on it. It's easy to either find someone who can be paid less or won't need to be paid - and if you can't, it's easy to decide that's unreasonable and not get live musicians at all
> 
> So, yeah, musicians are expendable - _PURE AND SIMPLE_


Yes, but is there a human aspect to it OUTSIDE of the fact that we're hardworking musicians? 
What I'm getting at is, do people do this sort of thing just because they don't "put a premium" on the quality and worth of musicians like you said, or is it because of they lack judgment and respect for others? I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. People probably don't appreciate the work we put in, but at the same time people can be jerks sometimes who don't think before they act.


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## KenOC

History shows that everybody is expendable. I'll also mention General Charles De Gaulle: "The graveyards are full of indispensable men."


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## arpeggio

Gordontrek said:


> Aww come on! Let's hear it!


If I can think of a reponse that won't get me banned, I will post it.


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## Ukko

Some elements of society consider music unnecessary. They are wrong.


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## Steatopygous

Even worse than musicians - many people (especially newspaper owners) think journalists are expendable!!!!!


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## Robert Eckert

DavidA said:


> The other thng is that good muscians are quite plentiful these days, unless you're (say) a Wagnerian heldentenor. Just think of the huge numbers of brilliant musicians in competitions who get nowhere. And they are the tip of the iceberg. Hence it is quite easy to go elsewhere.


Good musicians are probably not the direction to which the wedding party, mentioned at the start of this thread, were headed as a replacement to the original stated classical duo. I have been a professional musician since 1971 and have endless stories and experience in the modern world as a professional. There are two things that I can point to that might help to answer this tread's original question. They are Midi and the 'DJ'. The first I embrace as a technological tool that is very much welcome in our modern world of music. The DJ, however is a total joke and should not even be considered in musical conversation. The fact that a DJ can be paid to put up a bank of strobe lights and press PLAY has cheapened the art and impacted the appreciation that people have for musicians. But the love of music is not effected. I still practice 5 hours a day in my studio and love the fact that I can. I could care less if anyone is listening.


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## Idealist

Because consume society thinks that everyone that does not make profit or it is degenerated, is expendable. Classical musicians are the pinnacle of those two characteristics. Classical music is the embodiment of the perfection and idealism, so it is not promoted as degenerated forms of "art" such as rap or hip-hop. How can someone compare the total art work of Wagner with any song produced by any modern artist?


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## Lever Du Jour

Many people think that musicians are expendable because they tend to see things from a utilitarian perspective, they think their work is not useful in the way science is for medicine,technology and food, for example. I can't agree to such a view, because for me there would be no point in living without music.
Also because as Bertrand Russell pointed out, when the public doesn't understand some work of art, they conclude ,often incorrectly,that this must be because the work is bad, whereas when they don't understand Quantum physics, they correctly conclude that it is because of their lack of knowledge.


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## TMHeimer

I'm a long time professional clarinetist, though my career (where I made the money to feed myself) was that of school Band Director. I realized the ridiculous odds against making a living playing at about age 19. 
Music is "fun", so one should accept low pay, lack of consistant jobs, etc. because you enjoy it. Sounds a lot like the job of scuba instructor (I was a Divemaster--one who assist instructors). Pay is awful. But, you're supposed to do it because it's "fun" and you love diving. 
The top symphony players make what--$150K US? Top athletes what, $20M? Both are top notch. If one choses music of any kind one must expect what one gets. Of course if you are a top 40 pop band you can easily make that $20M, but how many get to that point? It is what it is I'm afraid.


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## Open Book

TMHeimer said:


> The top symphony players make what--$150K US? Top athletes what, $20M? Both are top notch. If one choses music of any kind one must expect what one gets. Of course if you are a top 40 pop band you can easily make that $20M, but how many get to that point? It is what it is I'm afraid.


Principals can make over $300K. Some of their salaries were made public when a Boston Symphony principal sued that she wasn't earning the same as other principals in the orchestra.

But you're right that it is a fraction of what athletes at the same elite level can make. Athletes are beloved by far more people and bring in far more money for their bosses than classical musicians.

I read something really insulting to musicians a few years ago. A luxury hotel in Boston was employing pianists for their piano bar and paying them nothing. The privilege of playing there was supposed to be their pay, which assumes they were talented but didn't have much of a resume yet. It's exploitation.

https://www.boston.com/culture/music/2015/03/31/berklee-musicians-irked-by-hotels-unpaid-gig


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## TMHeimer

Open Book said:


> Principals can make over $300K. Some of their salaries were made public when a Boston Symphony principal sued that she wasn't earning the same as other principals in the orchestra.
> 
> But you're right that it is a fraction of what athletes at the same elite level can make. Athletes are beloved by far more people and bring in far more money for their bosses than classical musicians.
> 
> I read something really insulting to musicians a few years ago. A luxury hotel in Boston was employing pianists for their piano bar and paying them nothing. The privilege of playing there was supposed to be their pay, which assumes they were talented but didn't have much of a resume yet. It's exploitation.
> 
> https://www.boston.com/culture/music/2015/03/31/berklee-musicians-irked-by-hotels-unpaid-gig


Thanks. The last time I looked it up (a year or 2-3 ago?) I read that the top Principal pay was the LA Phil. at $160K. Maybe that was in error, or there have been some big raises.

Re: Boston hotel-- Did they get free beer.....?


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