# The No. 9 Curse



## Manok (Aug 29, 2011)

I've always been somewhat interested in the topic of how many composers stop writing symphonies before they get to their 10th symphony. Does this have to do with not wanting to one up Beethoven, or is this superstition on the part of those composers who only wrote 9 symphonies?


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

Aren't there enough threads about this? (And enough exceptions?) 

...i.e. what about Brian, Segerstam (!), and multiple others?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Portamento said:


> ...i.e. what about Vaughan Williams....


What about him? He wrote nine.


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

Art Rock said:


> What about him? He wrote nine.


What about him?? :lol:


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Manok said:


> I've always been somewhat interested in the topic of how many composers stop writing symphonies before they get to their 10th symphony. Does this have to do with not wanting to one up Beethoven, or is this superstition on the part of those composers who only wrote 9 symphonies?


Most famous examples are not valid for either of the two reasons given.

Schubert died far too young for his final 9th to have been a conscious decision to stop.
Bruckner was at the end of his life and did not finish his 9th (which arguably was his 11th anyway).
Dvorak was at the end of his life.
VW was at the end of his life.

The only one where there is a grain of truth in the statement is Mahler (i.e. the superstition motive). He tried to cheat by not numbering his Das Lied von der Erde.

EDIT: I should have known that there is an informative Wikipedia article about it, debunking the notion.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

I have a Schubert set called "The Ten Symphonies" performed by ASMF and there is a tenth symphony on it. Think it was incompleted assumed to be illness and death!


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## Dr Johnson (Jun 26, 2015)

Thanks for the link to the Wiki article, Art Rock.

*"...and Leif Segerstam (309, as of 2016)"*

_309_ symphonies!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Dr Johnson said:


> Thanks for the link to the Wiki article, Art Rock.
> 
> *"...and Leif Segerstam (309, as of 2016)"*
> 
> _309_ symphonies!


That number is ironic, ending on _9_.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Didn't Mahler work around the #9 by composing his ninth as Das Lied, then when he composed his ninth, said it is actually not his ninth. Something like that I remember reading about.


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## Janspe (Nov 10, 2012)

I mused about the topic elsewhere some time ago, but I'll post it here too. Feel free to disagree, but here are some thoughts on why I think this story is pretty dull - I'll use Schubert, Bruckner and Mahler as examples:

I know the curse of the ninth is a cool story, and in some cases "true" - Vaughan Williams, for example - but a lot of the composers who are often listed as being representative of this legend don't really fit into the theory, especially if we compare them with each other. If we try to look at some of them all at once, we'll find ourselves faced with certain inconsistencies. Here are some examples…

If we count Mahler's tenth as an unfinished work - which it certainly is - we have to consider Schubert's "7th" symphony (E major, D.729) as an unfinished work as well. Both works are complete in drafts, but as in Mahler's case, Schubert only orchestrated parts of the first movement. Why do we consider Schubert's "7th" (a lovely work, mind you; I once got to hear it live!) a full work that adds up to the numbering, thus making the great C major symphony his ninth, all the while we say that Mahler's failure to finish his tenth makes him an example of this legend?

While we're on the topic of Mahler, his fantastic Das Lied von der Erde is indeed a symphonic work, and should be counted as such. Mahler finished 10 symphonies, and _almost _11. Sure, he refused to call the work a symphony because of his superstition concerning the curse of the ninth, but if we know that he initially meant it to be a symphony, should we care? And besides, the tenth really is a very substantial work, as already discussed (quite often) on this forum.

Back to Schubert: can we really consider his famous "8th" symphony in B minor a finished work? Heck, even the nickname everybody uses says that it is indeed an unfinished symphony. Granted, this case is very debatable, as a lot of people see the two movements as forming a perfect structure (resembling Beethoven's piano sonata in C minor, Op. 111, one could perhaps say) on their own, but then again the almost-completed piano draft of the scherzo movement survives to this day. So the question remains: why should an unfinished work be counted among the finished symphonies? Taking this case and the one mentioned above (about the symphony in E major) into consideration it can be said that Schubert never finished nine, or even eight symphonies. He composed seven finished symphonies. The Curse of the Seventh, perhaps?

Then there's Bruckner. Sure, this seems to be a clear case: he never finished his D minor symphony, the one that would've been his ninth - although I must say, and most listeners surely agree, that the symphony is a fantastic work even with the three completed movements. But we have to remember that Bruckner did in fact compose more than almost-9 symphonies: apart from the 8 ¾ "canonical" works, there's the F minor study symphony, and the D minor, "No. 0", that he composed between his first and second symphonies. Sure, he dismissed both of them - he famously quipped about the "No. 0" that the "sie gilt nicht", does not count - but from a purely objective perspective it is clear that he wrote 10 symphonies, with the 11th remaining unfinished. Of course the result depends on the perspective: if one wants to count only the works that the composer considered worthy, Bruckner is indeed a perfect example of the curse of the ninth.

Anyways, I just wanted to point out some of these inconsistencies as I'm kinda frustrated with the way people rave about the so called "curse" that in many cases doesn't withstand closer inspection at all. I'm such a bore, I know!

PS. Then there's of course Shostakovich...


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Well, obviously 9 is 6 upsidedown, and 666 is the Devil's number.


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## Dr Johnson (Jun 26, 2015)

Pugg said:


> That number is ironic, ending on _9_.


Until he knocks out number 310.

Wouldn't want to be the postman who has to lug the boxed set up the path.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Janspe said:


> PS. Then there's of course Shostakovich...


PP.S. and George Lloyd


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Becca said:


> PP.S. and George Lloyd


I read: Lloyd George...and thought: 'Surely _he_ didn't write any symphonies?!' I was on my way to Wikipedia (and the drinks cabinet) but then checked back and read it properly.

It's been a long day.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

Dr Johnson said:


> Until he knocks out number 310.
> 
> Wouldn't want to be the postman who has to lug the boxed set up the path.


Why the set might never be recorded. It would take a number of orchestras to do it. No one orchestra would try to record all of them.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

When George Lloyd was asked "Was there any big hurdle getting over Symphony Number Nine and going into Number Ten?"

_"Oh, yes. Yes, there was. I made a joke of that, and I wrote a whole lot on the score. I can't remember it word for word, but very roughly what I said was that if I'd been a serious composer of the last century, I would written a symphony an hour and a half long, and it would have been about life, death and resurrection. But in this one, the first movement was about a girl who dances, and the second movement is an old woman that reminisces, and the third movement is the merry-go-round that goes round and round and round. So it's life, death and resurrection. When I've done program notes for other people, I say any composer who's done eight symphonies is faced with this terrifying prospect of Beethoven and his one and only Ninth Symphony. So what does one do? I decided to do it lightheartedly. I was trying to say something serious while doing it in a very lighthearted way. That got me over the hurdle."_


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

MarkW said:


> Well, obviously 9 is 6 upsidedown, and 666 is the Devil's number.


6+6+6=18, and 1+8 = 9

Or this way

6x6x6=216
2+1+6=9


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## nightscape (Jun 22, 2013)

Mostly it seems like a matter of coincidence and timing, and less about composers being paranoid. Obviously there are no such things as curses, it just boils down to available time. People like Dvorak just had too many things going on and wrote in several different categories. It's just the way it worked out. Myaskovsky didn't seem to care. Extremely prolific, he wrote tons of music, amassing 27 symphonies. He was just more consistent with churning them out.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I wonder about the psychological mystique/superstition about the number 9. It's not like Beethoven dropped dead the moment he finished Symphony No. 9. He still had three years to live. What about all the Beethoven string quartets and piano sonatas? No trouble there passing number nine.
Seems ridiculous to me, but then again, I'm normal.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Art Rock said:


> Most famous examples are not valid for either of the two reasons given.
> 
> Schubert died far too young for his final 9th to have been a conscious decision to stop.
> Bruckner was at the end of his life and did not finish his 9th (which arguably was his 11th anyway).
> ...


 Art Rock, Dvorak was not at the end of his life when he wrote the New World Symphony , and still had about ten more years to live . We don't know if he consciously avoided writing another symphony out od superstition , but he certainly could have written more symphonies . And his death came unexpectedly at the age of only about 62 . Too bad . I'm sure he could have written more wonderful music if he had lived longer .


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

superhorn said:


> Art Rock, Dvorak was not at the end of his life when he wrote the New World Symphony , and still had about ten more years to live . We don't know if he consciously avoided writing another symphony out od superstition , but he certainly could have written more symphonies . And his death came unexpectedly at the age of only about 62 . Too bad . I'm sure he could have written more wonderful music if he had lived longer .


Dvorak's focus in his last years was on opera which he felt was 'the most suitable form for the nation'.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Well, William Schuman wrote 10 symphonies. For him the temptation of potential commission money received for a tenth, overwhelmed, having to eat canned tuna fish when stopping after a ninth symphony.

So he wrote a tenth symphony on commission, to commemorate the American Bicentennial, to be performed by the National Symphony Orchestra, and got handsomely compensated, way back in 1976.

Some things are more important than an irrational superstition.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Becca said:


> Dvorak's focus in his last years was on opera which he felt was 'the most suitable form for the nation'.


Spot on - and as he disowned his first four symphonies (none of which were published during his lifetime) probably in his own mind he had only composed five anyway.

Open question - are there any living composers currently on nine?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

elgars ghost said:


> Open question - are there any living composers currently on nine?


None that I know, but interestingly, two of the best living composers of symphonies (IMO) have been stuck on 8 for a while: Per Nørgård (since 2011) and Aulis Sallinen (since 2001).


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

The one and only Finnish composer/conductor Leif Segerstam has passed his 300 symphony ! How the heck does he find time to conduct ?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

superhorn said:


> The one and only Finnish composer/conductor Leif Segerstam has passed his 300 symphony ! How the heck does he find time to conduct ?


I have to wonder how he found 309 unique things to say ... or did he write the same symphony 309 times :lol:


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## Selby (Nov 17, 2012)

Art Rock said:


> None that I know, but interestingly, two of the best living composers of symphonies (IMO) have been stuck on 8 for a while: Per Nørgård (since 2011) and Aulis Sallinen (since 2001).


I am (moderately) obsessed with the idea of Nørgård's 9th. It (may) be predicted to coincide with the end of the world. Recent world phenomenon, both political and natural, are it's prelude. We are amidst a comic armageddon only Per, and his sense of humor, could orchestrate.


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