# HELDENTENOR TOURNAMENT (Round 1, Match 4): Slezak vs Thomas



## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Leo Slezak, Czech Republic, 1873-1946






Jess Thomas, USA, 1927-1973






'In Fernem Land' from Wagner's _Lohengrin_.

Who's singing did you prefer and why?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Lohengrin, a being of supernatural power and authority who yet craves human love, is a difficult role to make convincing and sympathetic; vocally he needs heroic metal, a fine legato, and some poetry - a rare combination. The tenor's job in this aria is to evoke the Grail's wondrous realm - its mystery, its sacred mission, the heroism of its representatives.

Neither of these performances is likely to make any recruits to the Holy Order. Both strike me as efficient renditions and little more.

I was surprised by Slezak's rather slow vibrato; I don't care for it, and it makes him sound older than he was at the time (40). He does have a good, ringing top, though. I was also surprised, not having listened to the Kempe _Lohengrin_ for years, to find the pleasant-sounding Thomas a little dull; I'd have to say that the other singers on that recording - Grummer, Ludwig and Fischer-Dieskau - contribute more to its overall excellence than he does.

Neither singer gave me any thrills, but I'm going to vote for Slezak because his voice has, despite the recording, a brighter ring to it than Thomas's, and he articulates with more good, old-fashioned legato. Lohengrin was one of his major roles, and to him is attributed the story of the swan which failed to appear in Act 3, prompting him to ask, "What time does the next swan leave?" I've never known whether to believe that story or not.

(For movie buffs and watchers of daytime TV, Leo Slezak was the father of Walter Slezak, screen actor who played the Nazi in Hitchcock's _Lifeboat,_ and the grandfather of Erika Slezak, actress who virtually made a career out of playing Victoria Lord on the long-running soap _One Life to Live._)


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Slezak held the Legato line better and had perhaps a touch more chest voice available to employ (hard to tell with the recording quality), which is obviously important in this repertoire. Anyhow, neither are that certain tenor who keeps coming up in the discussions in this heldentenor tournament who's familial name starts with 'M' and rhymes with belchior.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

I've never been much of a Slezak fan; I find the sound of his upper range nasal and unpleasant on recordings. Thomas' tone isn't ideally steady, but I find the basic sound more beautiful. He is far from my favorite Lohengrin on records (give me Heppner or Völker any day), but I prefer him here.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Having no idea what I am listening to and whether I am being prejudiced by the 2nd one's much finer orchestra, I have chosen Jess Thomas. I think he had a bit more power to his voice (but not by much).


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> I was also surprised, not having listened to the Kempe _Lohengrin_ for years, to find the pleasant-sounding Thomas a little dull; I'd have to say that the other singers on that recording - Grummer, Ludwig and Fischer-Dieskau - contribute more to its overall excellence than he does.


I think that Thomas is better on the live Bayreuth recording from around the same time. That's a recording that looks pretty dicey on paper, but is much more than the sum of its parts.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

Slezak is one of the greats from the past that I've never "gotten". His voice just sounds a little limp and dry in his acoustic recordings, and he was well past his prime by the time of electric recordings. Yet, he was successful in an era that wasn't exactly lacking in great singers.

Thomas is not one of my favorites either, though. He also sounds bleached out and limp. He's not anywhere near as bad, but he kind of sounds like the distant ancestor of Klaus Florian-Vogt.

I really don't know who to vote for.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

vivalagentenuova said:


> Thomas...kind of sounds like the distant ancestor of Klaus Florian-Vogt.


Perish the thought!


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Slezak is too wayward with his timing and his voice sounds strained at the top. Thomas is solid and infinitely preferable. I’m not sure what everyone else is hearing but he is in no way like Vogt. Thomas for me.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I have the Kempe recording, which is considered one of the best, though I wouldn't say that this was one of its best moments. Still I preferred Thomas to Slezak, so my vote goes to him.

This aria was actually the first bit of vocal music from the opera I'd ever heard. It was on an early (1969) recital record called Romantic Arias by one, Placido Domingo (his debut recital, I believe). Romantic Arias rather stretched the title as it included arias by Handel and Mozart. He sang in Italian, French, Russian and German and it was quite a calling card.

Here is his version of the aria from that disc and I must say I actually prefer it.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

^^^That's definitely interesting. For some reason I kept expecting him to break into "Granada."


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I have the Kempe recording, which is considered one of the best, though I wouldn't say that this was one of its best moments. Still I preferred Thomas to Slezak, so my vote goes to him.
> 
> This aria was actually the first bit of vocal music from the opera I'd ever heard. It was on an early (1969) recital record called Romantic Arias by one, Placido Domingo (his debut recital, I believe). Romantic Arias rather stretched the title as it included arias by Handel and Mozart. He sang in Italian, French, Russian and German and it was quite a calling card.
> 
> Here is his version of the aria from that disc and I must say I actually prefer it.


Not me, as I don't like his voice in German repertoire.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I pick Jess Thomas, as I know his voice well from years as San Francisco Opera's go-to Siegfried and other Wagnerian brethren. Recordings don't do justice to all voices, but his understanding of the role, I think, shows through.

As for Slezak, I enjoyed his son Walter's performances in several films, notably _Come September_.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

MAS said:


> Not me, as I don't like his voice in German repertoire.


In addition to the linguistic issue, Domingo's Lohengrin is generic - a series of notes and words emitted with a modicum of musicality, devoid of meaning.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

wkasimer said:


> In addition to the linguistic issue, Domingo's Lohengrin is generic - a series of notes and words emitted with a modicum of musicality, devoid of meaning.


Well, what do I know? I'm not that much of a Wagnerite. I just prefer the sound of Domingo's young voice, and I think Lohengrin can take a more lyrical approach.

Gedda tried it once apparently, but only sang it for one series of performances in Stockholm in 1966. He was supposed to sing it in Bayreuth in 1967, but, for some reason, it never happened. I think I remember reading somewhere that he thought the part wasn't for him, though he receieved favourable reviews for his performance in Stockholm.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Well, what do I know? I'm not that much of a Wagnerite. I just prefer the sound of Domingo's young voice, and I think Lohengrin can take a more lyrical approach.
> 
> Gedda tried it once apparently, but only sang it for one series of performances in Stockholm in 1966. He was supposed to sing it in Bayreuth in 1967, but, for some reason, it never happened. I think I remember reading somewhere that he thought the part wasn't for him, though he receieved favourable reviews for his performance in Stockholm.


I've heard the Gedda Lohengrin. He is very good but lacks the heldentenor heft that Wagner requires. Beautifully sung though.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Well, what do I know? I'm not that much of a Wagnerite. I just prefer the sound of Domingo's young voice, and I think Lohengrin can take a more lyrical approach.


I agree that Lohengrin really demands an essentially lyric approach, which is why I actually prefer tenors like Konya, Heppner, Winbergh, and Seiffert to Melchior, and would never want to hear someone like Suthaus, Hopf, or Vickers in the role, not to mention all of the provincial bawlers who've been singing Wagner for the past couple of decades. My problem with Domingo isn't his lyricism; it's that I don't hear anything beyond the notes, or about half of the consonants that give the text life and meaning.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Gedda tried it once apparently, but only sang it for one series of performances in Stockholm in 1966. He was supposed to sing it in Bayreuth in 1967, but, for some reason, it never happened. I think I remember reading somewhere that he thought the part wasn't for him, though he receieved favourable reviews for his performance in Stockholm.


Some singers have the sense to know that they may sound good in certain roles, but in the long run singing them will affect their ability to maintain the rest of their repertoire. Franz Völker, for example, made a conscious decision to avoid singing Tristan, Siegfried, and Tannhauser, because he thought, probably correctly, that his voice would lose its flexibility. On the other side of the ledger is Carreras, who sounded quite good singing Cavaradossi and even Don Carlo at first, but continuing to sing those roles produced a pretty precipitous vocal decline.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

wkasimer said:


> Some singers have the sense to know that they may sound good in certain roles, but in the long run singing them will affect their ability to maintain the rest of their repertoire. Franz Völker, for example, made a conscious decision to avoid singing Tristan, Siegfried, and Tannhauser, because he thought, probably correctly, that his voice would lose its flexibility. On the other side of the ledger is Carreras, who sounded quite good singing Cavaradossi and even Don Carlo at first, but continuing to sing those roles produced a pretty precipitous vocal decline.


I rather like Carreras's Don Carlo, but I don't necessarily think the role needs a big heroic voice. Radames no doubt stretched him beyond his limits. I like him on the second Karajan recording, but he'd probably have been wise to leave it as a gramophone creation.

As for Domingo in Wagner, I like him more than most, at least as Lohengrin, Tannhäuser or Walter. It's good to hear those roles being sung with a bit more beauty of tone than we were used to at that time, when many Wagner tenors used to bark rather than sing.

Maybe we should give him a little more credit. After all the track I posted above was part of a recital disc, released to show off his versatilty in a variety of roles , mostly of roles he didn't sing or hadn't yet sung on stage. That a single tenor could credibly encompass such a wide range of composers with such musicality was cause for celebration indeed. He started with Handel, showing his flexibilty in fast moving music, then turned to Mozart (an excellent performance of Don Ottavios' _Il mio tesoro_ in which he sings the whole of the florid phrase before the reiteration of the main theme in one very long and easy breath), Donizetti, Halévy, Verdi, Wagner, Tchaikovsky, Puccini and Mascagni. Later on I think he gave us a more plausible Lohengrin.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I rather like Carreras's Don Carlo,


So do I - but there's no denying that such repertoire didn't do him any favors in terms of vocal longevity. Some singers can resist urge to oversing in repertoire that's probably a little too heavy for them (Winbergh was a good example), but Carreras wasn't one of them. You can really hear the strain on the live performance from La Scala from the same year as the studio version.



> As for Domingo in Wagner, I like him more than most, at least as Lohengrin, Tannhäuser or Walter.


I actually like the Tannhäuser recording, but that's in part because the recorded competition in the role, Melchior aside, is really pretty dreadful. He's also a little more careful about his German in the studio. His Lohengrin has similar properties, but the recorded competition is pretty stiff there. As for his Stolzing for Jochum, his German is pretty dreadful, and the squeezed sound of his upper range grates on my ears.



> Maybe we should give him a little more credit. After all the track I posted above was part of a recital disc, released to show off his versatilty in a variety of roles , mostly of roles he didn't sing or hadn't yet sung on stage. That a single tenor could credibly encompass such a wide range of composers with such musicality was cause for celebration indeed.


I give him credit for his versatility, his willingness to take on so many roles, and his basic musical instincts. But when I pull a recording off the shelf, I'm not looking for a "jack of all trades". I'd rather listen to a less versatile singer who makes more out of a role than a mere succession of more-or-less pretty notes.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

wkasimer said:


> I give him credit for his versatility, his willingness to take on so many roles, and his basic musical instincts. But when I pull a recording off the shelf, I'm not looking for a "jack of all trades". I'd rather listen to a less versatile singer who makes more out of a role than a mere succession of more-or-less pretty notes.


I saw him on stage quite a few times when he was in his prime (I'd rather draw a veil over his baritone years) and he was always terrific in the theatre. I'd say his Otello at least was a good deal more than "a mere succession of more-or-less pretty notes". I'd give anything for a tenor who could sing and act it half as well now.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

That bit from _Lohengrin_ was an early Domingo recording. I think he got better at Wagner, including his German. I was quite surprised that I enjoyed his recording of Tristan as much as I did; he certainly sings it more beautifully than most do, and he really throws himself into the part. I know he loved doing it, expressing as he did the feeling that _Tristan_ was the greatest opera ever written. Many singers wish they had the power to do more dramatic roles, and I'm happy for Domingo that he had that opportunity. Now that he's a make-believe baritone, do you suppose he's eyeing Kurwenal? Who knows? Maybe he'll be King Marke at 90.


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## LeoPiano (Nov 1, 2020)

Woodduck said:


> That bit from _Lohengrin_ was an early Domingo recording. I think he got better at Wagner, including his German. I was quite surprised that I enjoyed his recording of Tristan as much as I did; he certainly sings it more beautifully than most do, and he really throws himself into the part. I know he loved doing it, expressing as he did the feeling that _Tristan_ was the greatest opera ever written. Many singers wish they had the power to do more dramatic roles, and I'm happy for Domingo that he had that opportunity. Now that he's a make-believe baritone, do you suppose he's eyeing Kurwenal? Who knows? Maybe he'll be King Marke at 90.


I couldn't imagine seeing a 90 year old on stage, and especially singing a part like King Marke where a good voice is needed in order to not make his long monologue unbearable.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

LeoPiano said:


> I couldn't imagine seeing a 90 year old on stage, and especially singing a part like King Marke where a good voice is needed in order to not make his long monologue unbearable.


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## LeoPiano (Nov 1, 2020)

Tsaraslondon said:


>


Wow. I never realized it has been done successfully before. Thanks for sharing that, Tsaraslondon!


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Placido Domingo is no Mark Reizen!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

LeoPiano said:


> I couldn't imagine seeing a 90 year old on stage, and especially singing a part like King Marke where a good voice is needed in order to not make his long monologue unbearable.


My omission of an emoji seems to have resulted in some wild speculation and a mood of excessive gravity. Here, then, with apologies for the oversight:

ut:


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

wkasimer said:


> Placido Domingo is no Mark Reizen!


I know he isn't and I wasn't suggesting he was!

I just thought, given the way the conversation had gone, I'd add a video of a famuos bass singing on stage in constume at the age of 90!


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Tsaraslondon said:


>


When I first saw this clip a while ago and got over the initial wow factor of a 90 year old singing so well my next thought was "he could probably sing the role better than many basses in their 30's and 40's nowadays". Perusing youtube, I discovered I wasn't too far off the mark.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

BachIsBest said:


> When I first saw this clip a while ago and got over the initial wow factor of a 90 year old singing so well my next thought was "he could probably sing the role better than many basses in their 30's and 40's nowadays". Perusing youtube, I discovered I wasn't too far off the mark.


Based on recorded evidence, Reizen was singing remarkably well into his 70's.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

I'd choose Jess Thomas over Leo Slezak just for being less "dry" in the delivery. Not particularly fine rendition and some tones do deviate, but a moving performance nonetheless. Slezak is very consistent but he somewhat leaves me cold.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Here Jess is much younger and I think he sounds just fine with Jessye Norman, at her young peak in 1980.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Here Jess is much younger and I think he sounds just fine with Jessye Norman, at her young peak in 1980.


Thomas's Lohengrin was recorded in 1964. He was in prime vocal estate then. By 1980 he was sounding strained.


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