# Just listen



## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Charles Ives' famous reprimand to complainers at a Ruggles concert can be paraphrased as "Shut up and listen." After years of reading derogatory comments about the music of many composers of all eras in western music, I have come to the conclusion that approximately 78.3% of those comments are the result of failure to heed Mr. Ives.

So... before posting your next self-congratulatory bitch... try listening, with the internal whine turned off so you can hear.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

'None so deaf as those that will not hear', as the proverb has it. 

(Shock - horror - you changed your avatar!  I only just noticed!)


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I received Schoenberg's Piano Concerto with Uchida today.

Rather than complain about something I know very little about, I will follow the same procedure that has worked for me when first encountering William Schuman's symphonies and Vincent Persichetti's piano sonatas: Repetitive listening. A lot of it; maybe for weeks.

I feel I am intelligent enough, that if Uchida thought it worthy of recording, I will one day understand why.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

hpowders said:


> I received Schoenberg's Piano Concerto with Uchida today.
> 
> Rather than complain about something I know very little about, I will follow the same procedure that has worked for me when first encountering William Schuman's symphonies and Vincent Persichetti's piano sonatas: Repetitive listening. A lot of it; maybe for weeks.
> 
> I feel I am intelligent enough, that if Uchida thought it worthy of recording, I will one day understand why.


A 'worthy' attitude, maybe an unnecessary durance. If you are to any degree a 'fluent reader', Alex Ross' "The Rest is Noise" is a good read - including the Schoenberg parts, which purport to 'get into his head' some. If you can absorb that, and then file it in _your_ head somewhere where it won't get in the way of the music, doors may open in hours instead of weeks.

[Since I am addressing you directly here, _hpowders_, the possibility exists that you will somehow 'take umbrage' from (to?) something I have written. If so, please be guided by the appearance of my avatar. I am representative, though feeble, of a bygone age.]


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Has there been a TC poll (shudder) inquiring just how many members _actually sit down and just listen to a recording, and solely just listen, i.e. pay attention to nothing else?_ Most, or many, who attend a live performance pretty much do that, but I wouldn't be surprised at the number who do not (i.e. if the answers were completely truthful 

Because that is what it takes -- and repeated listening, too -- if a work is new to you and you are a bit at a loss as to what it is about.


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

PetrB said:


> Has there been a TC poll (shudder) inquiring just how many members _actually sit down and just listento a recording, and solely just listenand pay attention to nothing else?_ About anyone attending a live performance pretty much does that, but I wouldn't be surprised at the number who do not (i.e. if the answers were completely truthful
> 
> Because that is what it takes -- and repeated listening, too -- if a work is new to you and you are a bit at a loss as to what it is about.


This is a true statement. I admit that I frequently do stuff around the house when music is playing: house work (but not vacuum), laundry, Sudoku, look at posts here on TC. At work after school I mark and listen to music. I don't have to read essays, that's not what I teach. But I do listen, perhaps not always with my entire brain.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

PetrB said:


> Has there been a TC poll (shudder) inquiring just how many members _actually sit down and just listen to a recording, and solely just listen and pay attention to nothing else?_ About anyone attending a live performance pretty much does that, but I wouldn't be surprised at the number who do not (i.e. if the answers were completely truthful
> 
> Because that is what it takes -- and repeated listening, too -- if a work is new to you and you are a bit at a loss as to what it is about.


I also regard this as a true statement but like Senza Sordino I also listen whilst doing things too - although this tends to apply to music I am already familiar with. When its something I don't know very well, I tend to listen much more carefully for a few times and with new operas, I tend to listen a few times without the libretto (or even without the synopsis) so that I get 'warmed up' to the piece.

You are right, of course, many of us will listen very attentively in a concert hall (and be irritated by chewers, sniffers, coughers, heavy breathers, wrigglers, rattlers, squeakers .... and even sweet unwrappers and mobile phone checkers). I have to admit, that it must be a toss-up where I can concentrate most on music - at home or in the concert hall.

Off to bed now - to read a chapter of Dostoyevsky and listen to some Scriabin through cheap headphones (so that they don't break when I fall asleep with them on - shock, horror!)


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

Ukko said:


> A 'worthy' attitude, maybe an unnecessary durance. If you are to any degree a 'fluent reader', Alex Ross' "The Rest is Noise" is a good read - including the Schoenberg parts, which purport to 'get into his head' some. If you can absorb that, and then file it in _your_ head somewhere where it won't get in the way of the music, doors may open in hours instead of weeks.
> 
> [Since I am addressing you directly here, _hpowders_, the possibility exists that you will somehow 'take umbrage' from (to?) something I have written. If so, please be guided by the appearance of my avatar. I am representative, though feeble, of a bygone age.]


Reminds me of the great Bob Newhart saying this to Don Rickles, "I'm sure Don would take umbrage at my remarks if he knew what the hell 'umbrage' meant."


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Believe me. He knew.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

If you listen... really listen... _then_ you might work out exactly why you hate this music so much!


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Nereffid said:


> If you listen... really listen... _then_ you might work out exactly why you hate this music so much!


Yeah, and _then_ I might even care about your opinion, eh? Even if the reason you hate it is because it makes your brain itch, that's interesting.


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

Me thinks that if we "just listen" we have failed as humans, what makes us stick out in our environment is the fact that we (the humans) reflect (ie. think) when we are subject to any kind of cultural stimulation (like music).

Hence I think that composers and/or musicians that urge You to "just" anything hasn't understood what music is all about!

/ptr


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Ukko said:


> Charles Ives' famous reprimand to complainers at a Ruggles concert can be paraphrased as "Shut up and listen." After years of reading derogatory comments about the music of many composers of all eras in western music, I have come to the conclusion that approximately 78.3% of those comments are the result of failure to heed Mr. Ives.
> 
> So... before posting *your next self-congratulatory bitch*... try listening, with the internal whine turned off so you can hear.


Do many people here actually congratulate themselves on not appreciating some kind of classical music?

I don't think so. I think it's usually lamenting rather than self-congratulation.

I think we can try to be fair even to people we hate.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

ptr said:


> Me thinks that if we "just listen" we have failed as humans, what makes us stick out in our environment is the fact that we (the humans) reflect (ie. think) when we are subject to any kind of cultural stimulation (like music).
> 
> Hence I think that composers and/or musicians that urge You to "just" anything hasn't understood what music is all about!
> 
> /ptr


And _I_ think that you have failed to perfect the Perfect Listening Procedure, which involves listening first and thinking later.

[Aside: What makes us humans "stick out in our environment" is our propensity for damaging it. We approach the 'contaminating efficiency' of some bacteria.]


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

ptr said:


> Me thinks that if we "just listen" we have failed as humans, what makes us stick out in our environment is the fact that we (the humans) reflect (ie. think) when we are subject to any kind of cultural stimulation (like music).
> 
> Hence I think that composers and/or musicians that urge You to "just" anything hasn't understood what music is all about!
> 
> /ptr


Just listen is strongly implicit to 'pay complete attention to.'

... just hearing, on the other hand....
_*"Even a duck can hear."*_ ~ Igor Stravinsky


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

science said:


> Do many people here actually congratulate themselves on not appreciating some kind of classical music?
> 
> I don't think so. I think it's usually lamenting rather than self-congratulation.
> 
> I think we can try to be fair even to people we hate.


"You are entitled to your opinion." Many of those bitches reek with Pride, in my opinion. As in: "_I_ have not been taken in by that composer's tricks and false doctrines. _ I_ am imbued with Good Taste, Artistic Judgement, and am in regular contact with the Muses (who frequently ask _me_ for _my_ opinions)."

Well, I could be exaggerating a little.


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

Ukko said:


> And _I_ think that you have failed to perfect the Perfect Listening Procedure, which involves listening first and thinking later.


In my little world "thinking" does not appear only at one end of the procedure, when it does there is no perfect!



> [Aside: What makes us humans "stick out in our environment" is our propensity for damaging it. We approach the 'contaminating efficiency' of some bacteria.]


Quite true even if undesirable!



PetrB said:


> Just listen is strongly implicit to 'pay complete attention to.'
> 
> ... just hearing, on the other hand....
> _*"Even a duck can hear."*_ ~ Igor Stravinsky


The point for me is the tiny word "just" that downgrades the meaning of "Just listen" to "hearing", but I might just be a duck when it comes to the English language!

/ptr


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

science said:


> Do many people here actually congratulate themselves on not appreciating some kind of classical music?
> 
> I don't think so. I think it's usually lamenting rather than self-congratulation.
> 
> ...


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

ptr said:


> In my little world "thinking" does not appear only at one end of the procedure, when it does there is no perfect!
> 
> The point for me is the tiny word "just" that downgrades the meaning of "Just listen" to "hearing", but I might just be a duck when it comes to the English language!
> 
> /ptr


Aha! You may be translating 'just' as 'merely'. In this context it means 'only', or 'exclusively'. The sentiment is that ratiocination be minimized, in order to minimize interference, with 'thinking about what was heard' to be done later.

Thinking _before_ listening seems unavoidable, even desirable - as long as it is not prejudicial. Few compositions can surmount the prejudicial "This is going to suck bigtime", though it does happen. [Note that opera may not support such pre-listening activities as reading the libretto; the plot may be bad enough to overpower the music.]


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

PetrB said:


> Just listen is strongly implicit to 'pay complete attention to.'
> 
> ... just hearing, on the other hand....
> _*"Even a duck can hear."*_ ~ Igor Stravinsky


Well said - and quoted. Listening, to me, means listening with full attention. Good music and, especially, challenging music, is too distracting for me to have on as background.


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