# Baritone horn



## Heck148

The Baritone Horn is a much used instrument in band literature - really a solo voice, something like the principal trumpet, clarinet, horn, etc....

I don't think any instrument has been so abused tho, in regards to really artistic playing...the old dictum was that players who couldn't cut it on trumpet, would switch to baritone....which often meant that this poor instrument was not drawing the top talents....one has only to look at how the baritone music is presented - you could have baritone bass clef - written in C, as a non-transposing instrument, or more often than not, it was baritone treble clef [Bb] - written like a Bb trumpet, but sounding an octave lower....this made an easier transition for the failed-trumpet transplants....

So often, the baritone is/was played with poor tone, unfocused, fuzzy - _foo - foo - fwee - fwaa_ - tone and articulation....this is unfortunate, because there are some great solos and important parts for the baritone in concert band/wind ensemble literature.

Some of the best examples of beautiful playing for this oft-abused instrument can be heard on the old Fennell/EWE recordings....Fennell's early recording ['55]- with the Holst, Vaughan Williams classics features some lovely playing - esp in Holst Suite #2 [F major]...
Another fine example is the later recording ['59] of Robert Russell Bennett's "Symphonic Songs for Band" mvt II...

Perhaps the best I've ever heard, tho, is on Reiner's recording of "Pix @ Exhibition" - Bydlo the Ox-cart - When Chicago recorded this, apparently Reiner had his great tubaist, Arnold Jacobs, play it on some different size tubas...but he wasn't quite happy with any of them - he wanted a different sound - so he went to Bob Lambert, the principal trombone - asked him "Do you have a baritone?" Lambert replied that he did, but it was at home, not at the hall....Reiner said "Bring it this afternoon"...Lambert brought it to the afternoon session, and used it for the Ox-cart...which is what we hear on the recording...beautiful playing - lovely legato, pure sound, effortless facility, sails right up to the high G#s with beautiful clarity....great playing...

and a long way from the fuzzy, unfocused tonal miasma to which the poor baritone is so often subjected....


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## Torkelburger

I think a lot of professionals, at least in band and solo settings, prefer "euphonium" (or at least use that term much more often, anyway). Oh, yes, I can verify as a tubist, that today's professional euphonium players are top-of-the-line. They have wonderfully manufactured instruments, and top-notch composers writing and publishing new music specifically for the instrument all the time. And they are a very welcome sound to the low brass in the concert band. They add weight, warmth, and roundness to the trombone register being a mixture of the horn, trombone, and tuba timbre; and make the low brass more homogenous, IMO.


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## Heck148

Torkelburger said:


> I think a lot of professionals, at least in band and solo settings, prefer "euphonium" (or at least use that term much more often, anyway). Oh, yes, I can verify as a tubist, that today's professional euphonium players are top-of-the-line. They have wonderfully manufactured instruments, and top-notch composers writing and publishing new music specifically for the instrument all the time. And they are a very welcome sound to the low brass in the concert band. They add weight, warmth, and roundness to the trombone register being a mixture of the horn, trombone, and tuba timbre; and make the low brass more homogenous, IMO.


It's a beautiful instrument, when played well..yes - Euphonium- is probably a more accurate designation. It shares a similar range to the bassoon, esp in the tenor range...tho listening to some high school kid massacre the Mozart Bassoon Concerto K. 191 was pretty tough to take!!


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## arpeggio

In the hands of a professional, the euphonium is a wonderful instrument.

One of the members of the City of Fairfax band is a retired euphonium player from the U. S. Army Band. He is fantastic.

Michael J. Colburn, a former director of the Marine Band was a virtuoso euphonium player. He is currently Director of Bands at Butler University.

William Schuman used the Euphonium in his _Seventh Symphony_.

On the other hand, I would like to shoot most of the amateur euphoniums I have met. I consider many of them to be brassholes. I remember a few years ago the City of Fairfax Band performing a transcription of the final movement of Hanson's _Second Symphony_ (I have had the opportunity of performing the orchestral version several times. Love the contrabassoon part.) McBeth, the arranger scored that wonderful scherzo section that is between the pizzicato cellos and the bassoons for bassoon and the euphoniums. Well, the five euphonium players in the band saw forte and blasted away. It sounded like an elephant stampede and totally drowned out the bassoons. I faulted our director. He could not get those clowns to back off.


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## Torkelburger

arpeggio said:


> In the hands of a professional, the euphonium is a wonderful instrument.
> 
> One of the members of the City of Fairfax band is a retired euphonium player from the U. S. Army Band. He is fantastic.
> 
> Michael J. Colburn, a former director of the Marine Band was a virtuoso euphonium player. He is currently Director of Bands at Butler University.
> 
> William Schuman used the Euphonium in his _Seventh Symphony_.
> 
> On the other hand, I would like to shoot most of the amateur euphoniums I have met. I consider many of them to be brassholes. I remember a few years ago the City of Fairfax Band performing a transcription of the final movement of Hanson's _Second Symphony_ (I have had the opportunity of performing the orchestral version several times. Love the contrabassoon part.) McBeth, the arranger scored that wonderful scherzo section that is between the pizzicato cellos and the bassoons for bassoon and the euphoniums. Well, the five euphonium players in the band saw forte and blasted away. It sounded like an elephant stampede and totally drowned out the bassoons. I faulted our director. He could not get those clowns to back off.


FIVE euphoniums??!!! Goodness, no. How big was the total group approximately?


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## arpeggio

^^^^^
At that time the City Band had almost 100 members. Our director is a great musician and a nice guy. So, since this is a volunteer group, he is a little lax with us.

A strange thing has happened as a result of the pandemic. Once we started up again only about 50 came back. He has decided to use this to keep the band small. We play much better as a smaller group. He had a discussion concerning this with our personnel manager. We currently have only four saxophones, which is really all you need. The personnel guy wanted to recruit and bring back some more sax players. The director said no way. Four saxes were plenty (We use to have seven. Four altos, two tenors and one bari.)


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## Heck148

arpeggio said:


> ...... I remember a few years ago the City of Fairfax Band performing a transcription of the final movement of Hanson's _Second Symphony_ (I have had the opportunity of performing the orchestral version several times. Love the contrabassoon part.) McBeth, the arranger scored that wonderful scherzo section that is between the pizzicato cellos and the bassoons for bassoon and the euphoniums. Well, the five euphonium players in the band saw forte and blasted away. It sounded like an elephant stampede and totally drowned out the bassoons. I faulted our director. He could not get those clowns to back off.


LOL!! I know that part to which you're referring....it is very effective in the orchestra version. I played the "Romantic" with Hanson conducting at school...he wanted the accents brought out - triplet pattern against the 4, iirc [I don't have the score,]

can't imagine it with a herd of baritones clogging it up - esp with that awful unfocused, fuzzy, diffuse sound that is heard so frequently on the non-professional level....
I used to play in the SE Mass Concert band - very good group - played all the wind ensemble standards...Euphonium player was terrific - a fine trombone player, he had a great sound on euphonium...great chops...a pleasure to listen to...


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## david johnson

Regarding clefs, it was not unusual to find all bass-clef brass printed in treble clef at one time.


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## Enthalpy

*The baritone and the euphonium differ extremely from an other*, from the sound and the capabilities, as the euphonium's bore is meant for a much lower range from the same tube length. Both are fantastic instruments, so orchestras should not replace one with the other.
Comparison qVjgR18sh6Q&t=54s​
But I feel the true bass, with a bore between the baritone and the euphonium, differs too little from them. No wonder that it gets rare, and will probably disappear. Bands already call "bass" the euphonium, often.



Heck148 said:


> [...] treble clef [Bb] - written like a Bb trumpet, but sounding an octave lower... this made an easier transition for the failed-trumpet transplants. [...]


I find the transposing notation excellent. It lets saxhorn players switch occasionally between alto and baritone, or flugelhorn and alto. Also, it lets play the same sheet music on different instruments, excellent for solo works and etudes. The saxophones or the English horn are written that way, and it works perfectly.

It's rational too that the composer or arranger makes the transposition effort once and without hurry, and the many musicians save this effort many times. It's even clearer now that software does the transposition.

For sure, attracting failed trumpet players is no good goal.


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## Torkelburger

In my experience with performing in concert bands, performing in professional brass ensembles, and attending professional recitals, I never see baritone horns. Professionals play euphoniums. I've performed with and seen performers from universities all over the US, including Indiana and Rice. The Euphonium has no problem replacing the Baritone since the Baritone's range is well within the Euphonium's. The differences in timbre don't seem to me to be too significant to make any huge fuss. As far as capabilities, the Euphonium players can play with incredible dexterity and precision, articulation, double and triple tonguing, with no problem and no matter the type of valves (piston).


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## Enthalpy

Euphonium players tend to be more professional than baritone players, so the euphonium plays the easy baritone parts. BUT:

I suspect a baritone _could_ play higher, this capability is only neglected by composers and arrangers;

And I disagree with the sound. It's completely different. Like trumpet and flugelhorn, horn and wagnertuba, cimbasso and basstuba. Replacing one with the other is just sacrilegious. Did you listen to the record I linked in my previous message?


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