# Your three (3) favorite complete Sibelius cycles



## chalkpie

This is not a poll per se, rather just an inquiry on which three (3) COMPLETE Sibelius symphony cycles you would bring to that magical desert island located in Northern Finland.....

I am a (relatively) new Sibelius freak, my personal discovery of the year (along with the Barshai Shostakovich symphony set, which is phenomenal to my ears), and like Mahler, I am looking to own way too many cycles for my own good.

I *LOVE* his tone poems, but lets' keep this to the symphonies please.

Thus far, if I had to rank my favorite three, it looks like this:

*1) Vanska/Lahti.*...........does it truly get better than this? I'm not so sure.

*2) Segerstam/Helsinki*i.......like a great Saab, this cat can get a bit quirky (in a great way) and brings something new to the table. His S4 is just unbeliveable.

3) *Saraste/Finnish Radio Symphony Orch*.........This seems to be a sleeper of a set.....it is beautifully captured (one or two live , perhaps), and this guy knows his Sibelius and can be very musical at times.

There 'ya go. Honorable mention goes to Jarvi/Gothenburg (DG), there are fine moments, but I can't get onboard with the sonics. It sounds like a mid-hall, semi-murky, less detailed and involving recording that could have been the ****, but I think the DG engineers sucked moose wang on this, and I am generally a pretty huge fan of DG recordings; when they are on, they are on.

As far as Sibelius the composer, I don't know what else to say other than I am SO fortunate that I am exporing his music. This guy has virtually entered top 10 almost overnight, so some poor soul has to get the boot and be demoted to spot no. 11?

I'll tell you who it is NOT: Ives, Mahler, Ravel, Ligeti, Shostakovich, Stravinsky, Lutoslawski, Copland, and Zappa.

So I am afraid to say its some poor ******* like Bartok, Schnittke, Carter, Bach, Debussy, Schoenberg, Webern, Wagner, Dowland, Tallis, Partch, de Machaut, Stockhausen, Lutoslawski, Messiaen, Byrd, Carter, Schuman (William), Jon Leifs (who is AMAZING btw) etc, etc.

you have no idea how painful it is to type these geniuses and not include them in my top 10, but it goes to show you just how fond of Sibelius I have become.


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## KenOC

I have to mention that if you don't mind MP3s, the entire Vanska/Lahti cycle is available for eight bucks. This includes some of Sibelius's other works as well as BOTH versions of the Symphony #5. My only gripe is that the dynamic range seems much wider than usual. Don't plan on listening in your car!

http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Comp..._shvl_album_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1354684245&sr=301-1


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## joen_cph

Of complete cycles, I skipped Abravanel and Maazel/decca - they were boring or too light-footed - & currently own Rozhdestvensky, Ashkenazy, Bernstein/cbs and Davis/philips. 

Bernstein is probably my favourite, Ashkenazy the least interesting but it has great sound and his "En Saga" is terrific (concerning "En Saga", the LP has better sound than the CD).

I´d like to have the Vanska too one day.

Concerning individual recordings, I also have

Kullervo - Berglund/digital (very good)
1 - Bernstein/DG, Kamu/dg
2 - Dorati/rca (extremely fine), Kamu/dg
3 - Kamu/dg (very good)
4 - Karajan/dg (very good); Ormandy/mono; Ansermet/decca (unusual, but rather boring and very slow), Maazel/decca (a rather neutral playing style in his set)
5 - Karajan/dg; Celibidache/dg (magnificent, but almost an "operatic" performance due to his record-breaking shouting); Ormandy/mono
6 - Karajan/dg (splendid)
7 - Mravinsky; Beecham/emi; Karajan/dg (splendid)

maybe a few more too ...


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## bigshot

I had a lot of trouble with Sibelius. I got several of the recommended cycles and they did nothing for me. I thought it was Sibelius's fault. But then I heard Kajanus and realized it was the performances that were the problem, not the compositions. I finally found Vanska/Lahti. That's the one for me.


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## realdealblues

I have several but admit I am no expert when it comes to Sibelius so I don't have any "definitive" sets.

I have:
Ashkenazy/Philharmonia
Berglund/Helsinki
Bernstein/NYPO
Davis/Boston
Maazel/Vienna
Sanderling/Berlin
Segerstam/Helsinki
Volmer/Adelaide

I haven't heard Vanska although I've heard a lot about it. 

I guess I reach for the Berglund and Bernstein probably the most because I have had those recordings the longest. The Berglund box set also has a bunch of other works included so I often listen to more than just the symphonies.

I also have a bunch of incomplete symphony cycles but I can't even begin to remember which ones other than Karajan.

Sanderling is an interesting one I visit from time to time, as is Barbirolli, but I also like most every recording I've heard from either of them.


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## KenOC

Here's a list of complete cycles from another place, in order of preference:

1 - Berglund/Helsinki PO 
2 - Collins/London SO 
3 - Barbirolli/Halle Orch 
4 - Saraste/Finnish Radio SO 
5 - Segerstam/Helsinki PO 
6 - Vänskä/Lahti SO 
7 - Davis/Boston SO 
8 - Berglund/Bournemouth SO 
9 - Järvi/Gothenburg SO (BIS) 
10 - Maazel/Vienna PO


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## realdealblues

KenOC said:


> Here's a list of complete cycles from another place, in order of preference:
> 
> 1 - Berglund/Helsinki PO
> 2 - Collins/London SO
> 3 - Barbirolli/Halle Orch
> 4 - Saraste/Finnish Radio SO
> 5 - Segerstam/Helsinki PO
> 6 - Vänskä/Lahti SO
> 7 - Davis/Boston SO
> 8 - Berglund/Bournemouth SO
> 9 - Järvi/Gothenburg SO (BIS)
> 10 - Maazel/Vienna PO


Yeah, I agree with #1. The Berglund/Helsinki set gets the most play from me. I think it's tough to beat.


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## bigshot

I've got Barbirolli, Saraste, Segerstam, Davis and Jarvi. Maazel too I think. None of those did much for me. Kajanus is the best. He's in a whole other universe from the rest. Vanska is good for a modern recording.


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## Vaneyes

Lots of chatter about Berglund. I must be the only one who thinks his two EMI sets are uneven...liking the first four from Helsinki and the last three from Bournemouth.

Re Kajanus and Collins (for examples), I cannot get to the starting gate with poor sound. And as a poster noted, the Vanska dynamics bug me, too.

Thus, in these strictly-defined circumstances, my 3 set choices are....drumroll if you please....

1. Blomstedt/SFS (Decca)
2. Ashkenazy/Philharmonia (Decca)
3. Jarvi/Gothenburg (BIS)

My symphony prefs...

1. HvK/BPO (EMI, rec. 1981)
2. HvK/Philharmonia (EMI, rec. 1960)
3. Jansons/Oslo (EMI, rec. 1994)
4. HvK/BPO (EMI, rec. 1976)
5. HvK/Philharmonia (EMI, rec. 1960)
6. HvK/BPO (EMI, rec.1980)
7. Beecham/RPO (EMI, rec. 1955)


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## chalkpie

JUST got this in the mail today....The Essential Sibelius. Mainly Vanska/Lahti, but also some Jarvi/Goteburg.

15 CD's, plus a 132-page booklet.......$49.99 plus a few bucks for shipping. This is a steal with IMO one of, if not the best Sibelius cycle available. Check out the track list - it's ridiculous. The only major piece missing is "Nightride and Sunset, op.55" and "Oma Maa".

http://www.importcds.com/music/803545/j-sibelius-the-essential-sibelius-box-set


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## Tero

Vänskä Lahti
Berglund HKI or Bournemouth, both good
Sanderling Berlin...very consistent level of professionalism

4: Segerstam HKi, a few oddities stick out
5: Järvi or Saraste


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## Tero

chalkpie said:


> JUST got this in the mail today....The Essential Sibelius. Mainly Vanska/Lahti, but also some Jarvi/Goteburg.
> 
> 15 CD's, plus a 132-page booklet.......$49.99 plus a few bucks for shipping. This is a steal with IMO one of, if not the best Sibelius cycle available. Check out the track list - it's ridiculous. The only major piece missing is "Nightride and Sunset, op.55" and "Oma Maa".
> 
> http://www.importcds.com/music/803545/j-sibelius-the-essential-sibelius-box-set
> 
> View attachment 10862


Really, Nightride is missing?

I got it for the vocal works etc as I have the Vänskä symphonies already. I like the choral works and getting Kullervo is a good deal. Shop around, I got mine for $50.


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## AClockworkOrange

The only full cycle I have is the Jarvi/Gothenburg cycle. So far, Jarvi has never let me down in terms of quality and consistency. So far being the qualifier as I have not heard the whole cycle yet (getting there though)

I have some recordings of Berglund with LPO which are very good, though I prefer Jarvi at present.

After seeing/hearing Bernstein on an Ica Classics DVD conducting the 5th, I am very curious about a cycle from him. Perhaps after digesting the Jarvi set I will investigate further. I've only recently discovered Bernstein via a documentary on Sky Arts 2 (reflectionsI think) and some of his own compositions and the aforementioned DVD (also featuring the Rite of Spring). Is there a recommended set because I notice there are two versions of many of his cycles?

So, that last tangent aside, I would say Jarvi/Gothenburg and loose recordings I have by Ashkenazy and Berglund at present.


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## Schubussy

chalkpie said:


> http://www.importcds.com/music/803545/j-sibelius-the-essential-sibelius-box-set
> 
> View attachment 10862


.... I'd be so much richer if I'd never found talkclassical. Bought.


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## ptr

the sets I usually use for reference is Järvi/GSO (Bis) and/or Blomstedt/SFSO (Decca). That said, I would not want to be without Kajanus, Collins or Barbirolli and Davis in Boston. 

/ptr


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## Howling Moon

I have the big Vanksa box, which is somewhat intimidating, but Berglund/Bournemouth SO is the edition that gets the most play. It moved me beyond the second and the seventh (still my favourite) symphonies, and I know I enjoy them all. I especially love the freshness and spark of the first.


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## hpowders

Sir Colin Davis/BSO. That's it.


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## chalkpie

I want this. Got amazing ratings. Anybody have this?


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## Pugg

chalkpie said:


> View attachment 85726
> 
> 
> I want this. Got amazing ratings. Anybody have this?


Never ever seen it .
I'll stick to Ashkenazy / Bernstein (Sony) and Maazel


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## Guest

Berglund/BSO is my preferred cycle, although I don't think any single conductor gets all 7 right. In search of other versions, I've just come across Daniel Harding conducting the Mahler Chamber Orchestra in, IMO, a fantastic 7th...perhaps the best I've heard.


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## dieter

I have:
Sanderling
Berglund Helsinski
Berglund Bournemouth
Davis Boston
Davis LSO RCA
Davis LSO
Segerstram Helsinki
Storgard
Blomstedt
Barbirolli

I like the Sanderling the best, Blomstedt, Davis Boston and Segerstram are good, and I have a soft spot for Berglund's Bournemouth and Barbirolli, the latter because he could make the brass GRUNT.


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## Archtop51

Davis/Boston
Barbiirolli
Collins


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## bigshot

I just got the Kamu / Lahti BIS SACD set. Wish I hadn't. I really love the Vanska set with the same orchestra, but this one is totally different. All the rough edges are smoothed over and there is very little organic texture left. It kind of sounds like the soundtrack to a TV movie. I walked right up to the rear channel speakers, and I couldn't detect any sound coming from them at all. Very disappointed.


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## chalkpie

bigshot said:


> I just got the Kamu / Lahti BIS SACD set. Wish I hadn't. I really love the Vanska set with the same orchestra, but this one is totally different. All the rough edges are smoothed over and there is very little organic texture left. It kind of sounds like the soundtrack to a TV movie. I walked right up to the rear channel speakers, and I couldn't detect any sound coming from them at all. Very disappointed.


Thanks for the heads up and sorry to hear that, how disappointing. Sometimes the grass isn't always greener, eh? I guess I too am always on the lookout for THE PERFECT Sibelius cycle, but maybe I already have it in Vanska and Segerstam? (two different but valid visions on this exquisite music). But I guess its just plain fun exploring the vast sea of recordings out there, even if some are 'misses'.


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## Brahmsian Colors

1)Collins/London Symphony (very good mono sound) Most consistently excellent interpretations I've heard from a set.
2)Vanska/Lahti Symphony. Particular standouts 3,4,6
3)Maazel/Vienna Philharmonic. Particular standouts 1,4,7

Other very fine individual performances: 

Sym #1: Stokowski/National Philharmonic
Sym #2: Kamu/Berlin Philharmonic and Ormandy/Philadelphia Orchestra
Sym #3: Kamu/Helsinki Radio Symphony
Sym #4: Vanska, Collins and Maazel from sets above the best Fourths I've heard. My favorite Sibelius symphony
Sym #5: Bernstein/NY Philharmonic
Sym #6: Karajan/Berlin Philharmonic
Sym #7: Koussevitzky/Boston Symphony (mono sound not too good, but superb performance). For stereo, I'll stick with Maazel's Seventh from above.


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## DavidA

Two men who won the approval of the composer for their conducting of his symphonies were Karajan and Beecham. Neither recorded a cycle but both can be heard in reasonable sound.


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## bigshot

DavidA said:


> Two men who won the approval of the composer for their conducting of his symphonies were Karajan and Beecham. Neither recorded a cycle but both can be heard in reasonable sound.


You're forgetting the one conductor who worked closely with the composer... Kajanus. If you want to know how Sibelius intended it to sound, listen to Kajanus. It sounds quite different from typical Germanic classical music in his hands.


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## DarkAngel

1) Maazel WP - love the passion, drama, sound is demonstration class!

 

2) Bernstein NYPO - same reasons as early Maazel, new remasters



3) Jarvi BIS - I much prefer these earlier recordings by Jarvi


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## Guest

Got Segerstam/Helsinki for Christmas. Good so far.


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## Ralphus

I own:

Barbirolli
Berglund/Bournemouth
Bernstein
Blomstedt
Collins
Davis (LSO & LSO Live)
Kamu
Karajan/Kamu
Rattle
Sanderling
Segerstam
Vanska (Lahti)

Of these, my clear favourite is Berglund/Bournemouth; but I really like Vanska, Segerstam, and Sanderling, too. I love the tones poems more than the symphonies in the Barbirolli set. Like someone else mentioned, the poor sound in the Collins puts me off. Blomstedt is solid in great sound. Davis/LSO is solid but more erratic in the recent series. Rattle is quirky and interesting at times. I don't hate it as much as others seem to. Bernstein is disappointing for me. Karajan doesn't rate for me. And, as someone else also mentioned, the recent Kamu/Lahti was terribly disappointing.

Individually:

#1 - Vanska/Minnesota; Davis/LSO Live
#2 - Barbirolli (Testament)
#3 - Blomstedt
#4 - Vanska/Minnesota; Davis/LSO Live
#5 - still searching, really...but Ole Schmidt (Alto/Regis) comes close
#6 - Berglund (LPO Live)
#7 - oddly, Bernstein (DG)!
[Kullervo - I only know Davis (LSO Live)]

I have to admit, my favourite Sibelius symphonies are 2, 3, 5, and 6.


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## bisque

I have way too many complete sets, and quite a lot of one-offs of the various symphonies, especially the fifth, my favorite. Of the sets, well, let's see: I thought the Segerstam Ondine set was pretty excellent overall, the Barbirolli is wonderful as is the Sanderling in slightly lesser sound, the mono Collins, which I find terrific, and I had a reel-to-reel transferred to CD of the Akeo Watanabe performances, which are wonderful. I've tried most of the others and they're hit and miss for me - Berglund's okay, I really don't like the Colin Davis (sorry) or the Maazel (sorry), the Vanska didn't really do it for me (sorry), and the Rozhdestventsky is just plain odd but worth hearing. 

My favorite fifth (I waffle, oh, yes, I waffle) is usually the 1959 Alexander Gibson, which I love both musically and sonically. I wish Tauno Hannikainen had done a complete set, and I certainly get some enjoyment out of the Von Karajan DG four through seven. 

Finally, someone asked about the Lintu - I got that Blu-ray set and I found it pretty compelling throughout - I don't know what I'd think if I were JUST listening, but the Blu-ray sound is unbelievably great and watching him conduct is fun and everything sounded pretty wonderful to my ears. For other one-offs, Monteux is very good and so is Ansermet. I've been going through the Storgards set, but it's merely okay, IMO.


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## Brahmsian Colors

Vanska/Lahti Symphony on BIS
Berglund/Chamber Orchestra of Europe on Finlandia
Saraste/Finnish Radio Symphony on Finlandia


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## RobertKC

chalkpie said:


> View attachment 85726
> 
> 
> I want this. Got amazing ratings. Anybody have this?


Anyone have an opinion between these 2 Blu-ray video box sets?

Lintu: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0172IVULU/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1










Rattle: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B014REVX2I/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER


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## Heck148

Bernstein/NYPO clear winner for me - one of the few complete symphony sets by anyone that I recommend - all very strong, with some absolutely top level performances- 5, 1,3, 4, 7..

Maazel/VPO - good overall and well-recorded.
I'm afraid I stay away from many of the Finnish collections from past years - certainly heart-felt, and passionate, but too often the string playing is thin and scrappy....simply not comparable to the big brawny NYPO, or the beauty and refinement of VPO or Philadelphia efforts.


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## jtilton

Can anyone speak for this particular set? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00ZB7UYF8/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_ep_dp_v9cGBbG96B66H

The product description lists everything more comprehensively, but a summary is:

Symphonies
Symphony no. 1 & 2
Wiener Philharmoniker / Bernstein

Symphony no. 3 ca. 30 and Lemminkänen Suite
Helsinki Radio Symphony Orchestra / Kamu

Symphonies nos. 4 & 6 and 5 &7
Berliner Philharmoniker / Karajan

Kullervo Symphony 
Turku PO / Jorma Panula

After that another 8 discs (14 total) of stage works, tone poems, etc.


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## Merl

RobertKC said:


> Anyone have an opinion between these 2 Blu-ray video box sets?
> 
> Lintu: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0172IVULU/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rattle: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B014REVX2I/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER


I'm no expert on Sibelius (even though I have several cycles) and I'm still exploring his music however I recently heard (but didn't see) Rattle's BPO cycle and it left me as cold as his CBSO cycle. I've not heard the Lintu cycle yet. I still like Karajan's Sibelius a lot and I like the Storgards cycle too but my favourite is probably Berglund (Helsinki) . My cycles (off the top of my head) are:
Berglund (Bournemouth and Helsinki) 
Vanska
Maazel
Karajan
Storgard
Jarvi
Saraste (not listened to this yet)


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## joen_cph

jtilton said:


> Can anyone speak for this particular set? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00ZB7UYF8/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_ep_dp_v9cGBbG96B66H
> 
> The product description lists everything more comprehensively, but a summary is:
> 
> Symphonies
> Symphony no. 1 & 2
> Wiener Philharmoniker / Bernstein
> 
> Symphony no. 3 ca. 30 and Lemminkänen Suite
> Helsinki Radio Symphony Orchestra / Kamu
> 
> Symphonies nos. 4 & 6 and 5 &7
> Berliner Philharmoniker / Karajan
> 
> Kullervo Symphony
> Turku PO / Jorma Panula
> 
> After that another 8 discs (14 total) of stage works, tone poems, etc.


As regards the symphonies, a classic and definitely very, very recommendable.
I don´t know Panula´s Kullervo, I like Berglund in that work.


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## Josquin13

I'm going to go against the crowd here, & say I wouldn't recommend the DG set. You can almost always do better than Karajan in most music, and his string heavy, mushy Sibelius in Berlin is no exception. If you must have Karajan's Sibelius, I'd recommend his later EMI recordings (recorded between 1976-81) instead of the 1960s DG ones: https://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-1976-1981/dp/B00JDB4BS4/ref=cm_cr_dp_d_rvw_txt?ie=UTF8. According to conductor Paavo Berglund, Karajan only learned to conduct the whole score in Sibelius later in his career. Neeme Järvi is likewise not a first choice in the tones poems either, IMO. I regretted buying that set (along with Järvi's DG symphony cycle--though the Gothenburg S.O. is a fine orchestra). Instead, I'd recommend sampling Berglund, Segerstam, Ormandy (Pohjola's Daughter), and Gibson in the tone poems. Okko Kamu's DG recordings of the 1st, 2nd & 3rd are good, but only the 3rd is included in the DG set. I admire that the conducting is firmly in the Finnish tradition (lean & hard); however, Kamu has recorded these works more recently for BIS & they come in better sound (on hybrid SACD). (With that said, the only real highlight, for me, of Kamu's recent BIS cycle was his 4th--it's a great 4th). Jorma Panula's Kullervo is good too, but you probably won't prefer it to either of Berglund's two Kullervo recordings (on EMI), or Segerstam's either. I don't know Bernstein's 1st & 2nd Symphonies from his DG years. But I have heard his late DG 7th in Vienna (on You Tube), and wouldn't consider it in the same league with Berglund's masterful LPO live recording of the 7th--which goes with me to my desert island. (I almost always prefer Bernstein's early Columbia/Sony & EMI recordings to the recordings of his later DG years, which can be overly indulgent, less dynamic & precise & taut, and are generally inferior to Bernstein in the 1960s & early 70s, IMO).

Here are the Sibelius cycles that I've liked best (& basically in order of preference):

1. Modern Sibelius conducting began with Paavo Berglund (and the pioneering Dane Thomas Jensen, Hans Rosbaud, Sir John Barbirolli, and Eugene Ormandy). In the 1980s, Berglund was responsible for the revised, corrected 2nd Hansen edition of the 5th, 6th, & 7th Symphonies: which was based on Sibelius' own hand-corrected conducting scores of the the 1st Hansen edition--which were discovered by Berglund in the possession of the Helsinki Philharmonic in the 1960s. No conductor knows the scores of the 5th, 6th, & 7th symphonies better or more intimately than Berglund, and it shows in how thrillingly he builds the climaxes in this music (& how all the myriad details in these intricate, complex scores seem to be in exactly the right place). Berglund's Sibelius can mostly be found at bargain basement prices too: (1) His early 1970s Bournemouth S.O. cycle on EMI is a great favorite of mine, especially the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 6th, & 7th from this cycle. (2) Berglund's later Helsinki Philharmonic cycle is very good too (though the young Helsinki orchestra played better for Segerstam on their later cycle, after they'd matured as a Sibelius orchestra). Commenting on these two cycles, Berglund said,

"Sibelius himself conducted in Bournemouth, so the tradition was there. When I recorded the symphonies again in the 1980's with the Helsinki Philharmonic, the Sixth Symphony was pure gobbledygook to the orchestra and the work was hard. The orchestra was enthusiastic, nevertheless. The Second and Fifth Symphonies went well". (Finnish Musical Quarterly--see link to article below*.)

(3) Berglund's third cycle with the Chamber Orchestra of Europe began with the idea to record the 4th, 6th, & 7th symphonies with a smaller, leaner orchestra of only around 50 players--which was in accordance with Sibelius's own wishes, as expressed to his son-in-law, the conductor Jussi Jalas. Sibelius said,

"The IV Symphony does not require a large orchestra. The III Symphony is well suited for a very small orchestra, I performed it in Moscow with an orchestra that had 12 violas, etc., and the woodwinds were almost wiped out. When I had it published, I was going to add a note that the orchestra should not exceed 50 players." *

In the 1st, 2nd, and 5th symphonies, Berglund used a full-strength orchestra. Therefore, one can hardly call his chamber cycle misguided or an experiment, or say that it doesn't conform closely to the composer's wishes, as Berglund takes Sibelius at his word.

With that said, Berglund was at his best live in Sibelius, IMO. His final 'swansong' Sibelius recordings with the London Philharmonic Orchestra at the Barbican in London in the 2000s are desert island discs in my collection--especially his live performances of the 5th and 7th. I've never heard a better 7th (though Segerstam's Danish 7th gets close), and consider Berglund's live 5th to be in the same league with the historical 5th of Robert Kajanus, who premiered the work (no small praise).

https://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Com...=1535141016&sr=1-1&keywords=berglund+sibelius
https://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Sym...=1535141016&sr=1-2&keywords=berglund+sibelius
https://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Sym...141206&sr=1-1&keywords=sibelius+berglund+sacd
https://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Sym...5141272&sr=1-2&keywords=berglund+sibelius+5+6
https://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Sym...2807&sr=1-1&keywords=berglund+sibelius+europe

The following bargain CD contains the finest performance of "The Swan of Tuonela" I've ever heard: https://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Fin...&sr=1-2&keywords=berglund+sibelius+tone+poems. Berglund's Tapiola is very good too.









. Berglund's 2nd Kullervo for EMI has the advantage of being digitally recorded (& is excellent), but my impression over the years has been that collectors tend to prefer the earlier world premiere recording.

2. Leif Segerstam: Segerstam has done two Sibelius cycles: the first for Chandos (reissued by Brilliant), with the Danish National Radio S.O., and a 2nd cycle for Ondine, with the Helsinki Philharmonic Orchestra. Both are very good. However, I slightly prefer Segerstam's earlier Chandos cycle with the Danish orchestra, overall, to the Helsinki cycle (btw, he has also recorded a very fine Mahler cycle with the Danish players). As noted, the 7th from this Danish cycle is especially fine. The criticism of Segerstam's Sibelius is that he tends to draw out the music to unnecessary lengths, which can slow down the forward momentum and begin to loosen or even pull apart the musical structure (it can sometimes feel hallucinatory). In comparison to Berglund's more tightly woven Sibelius, I'd say there is some truth in this, at times. However, Segerstam successfully conducts the whole score in Sibelius (which allows the listener to hear many important details) & can be very good in this music: especially in the shorter works, such as the tone poems, and the two Tempest Suites, as well as Kullervo:

https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Sym...1535138863&sr=1-1&keywords=segerstam+sibelius
https://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Sym...535138786&sr=1-16&keywords=segerstam+sibelius





https://www.amazon.com/Jean-Sibeliu...35138881&sr=1-2&keywords=segerstam+sibelius+7

Here's Segerstam's Helsinki 7th, for the sake of comparison:





3. Jukka-Pekka Saraste--Saraste has recorded two Sibelius cycles--one in the studio (originally for RCA) and the other recorded live on tour in St. Petersburg, Russia (originally released by Finlandia)--both with the Finnish Radio S.O. I like both cycles, but may slightly prefer the earlier RCA studio set (which surprisingly has never been assembled in a box set, so you have to buy the mostly OOP discs individually). Saraste has also released a recent dynamic 5th with the LPO live on hybrid SACD (his other recent live Sibelius performances can be heard on You Tube): https://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Sym...535208416&sr=1-1&keywords=Saraste+lutoslawski

https://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Sym...1535216261&sr=1-4&keywords=saraste+sibelius+3
https://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Sym...6335&sr=1-2-fkmr1&keywords=saraste+sibelius+4
https://www.amazon.com/Symphony-7-S...1535216310&sr=1-3&keywords=saraste+sibelius+7

https://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Sym...d=1535208195&sr=1-6&keywords=Saraste+sibelius

I've not heard Lintu's recent cycle, nor have I heard Anthony Collin's mono cycle yet (which is a great favorite of others). I was disappointed with John Storgards cycle, which I found weak, though I've liked his conducting in other music. The best recent Sibelius cycle I've heard is Sakari Oramo's Birmingham cycle on Erato: https://www.amazon.com/Symphonies-1...35208561&sr=1-6&keywords=Sibelius+oramo+erato . While Rattle's Berlin cycle is probably the worst (as I found it mostly clueless).

Finally, I'd strongly recommend the Sibelius of Sir Alexander Gibson and Sir John Barbirolli too, and in Gibson's case, especially his lesser known late 'swansong' recordings with the Uppsala Chamber Orchestra, which are remarkable and contain some of the finest Sibelius conducting I've ever heard (Gibson's Uppsala performances of the 1st & 2nd can be heard on You Tube--see link below):










https://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Com...535210153&sr=1-1&keywords=sibelius+barbirolli
https://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Sym..._rd_t=40701&psc=1&refRID=RMTMBZMB1AQS3SY1VE0G
https://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Sym...5210210&sr=1-3&keywords=sibelius+2+barbirolli

*Here's the article from the Finnish music quarterly that I quoted from above: https://fmq.fi/articles/sibelius-the-view-from-the-podium

P.S. If you want a collection of Sibelius songs, I'd suggest that you look into & sample the recordings of singers Kirsten Flagsted, Anne Sophie von Otter, Monica Groop, Karita Mattila, and a 4 CD box set from Elisabeth Söderström and Tom Krause, with Vladimir Ashkenazy and Irwin Gage at the piano, respectively: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01582CNCM/ref=dm_ws_sp_ps_dp

My two cents.


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## Merl

Wow Josquin13, that's some post! Lots of great info too. I had a look on the HD and it appears I also have Blomstedt (unsurprisingly superb set of which I listened to the 5th, 6th and 7th this morning), Oramo (consistent and fiery) , Bernstein (not listened to yet) and Inkinen (not good at all apart from the last 2 symphonies). I need to do some serious Sibelius listening in the future as I particularly like the last 3 symphonies.


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## Guest

Rattle, paraphrased: "Karajan has no sense of rhythm."

https://www.digitalconcerthall.com/en/interview/20350-3

I'm not sure he explains what he means - it seems unlikely that he meant it literally; I presume more the sense of the rhythm of the way a piece unfolds. Whatever, I'm less convinced that HVK is as 'great' as is claimed, and I'm very happy to sample others' interpretations.


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## Rmathuln

My three would be these.

Segerstam/Ondine










Complete-Symphonies-JEAN-SIBELIUS

Berglund/Bournemouth/Warner-EMI










Sibelius-Complete-Symphonies-Tapiola-Finlandia

Watanabe (OOP)










https://tower.jp/item/3184161/シベリウス：交響曲全集＜タワーレコード限定＞


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## Rmathuln

Those who like the Barbiroli EMI cycle might be interested in Japanese SACDs to be released on 09/07

http://tower.jp/item/4771258

https://tower.jp/article/feature_item/2018/08/08/1110


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## Josquin13

I listened to the Rattle interview, thanks MacCleod. He mentions that the Berlin Philharmonic had been playing the beginning of the Sibelius 5th incorrectly for decades due to Karajan not being very "interested" in the rhythm, as it was written in the score--which Rattle hums out. Being that Rattle was a timpanist, I expect he understands the opening rhythm of the 5th correctly. (I also suspect he could have gone on with further examples about how Karajan diverted from the rhythms notated in scores...)

To my ears, Karajan had a tendency to drag music. His recordings of Haydn's The Creation and the Bach Mass in B minor attest to this. (You need only compare Karajan's Haydn to Gardiner's, or his Mass in B minor to Schreier's, etc., to hear how badly he could drag music at times). Karajan's approach didn't work especially well in Sibelius either, IMO--except arguably in the 4th, as Rattle points out, which is something of an anomaly among the 7 symphonies (although I don't agree with Rattle here). To me, Sibelius's scores tend to have more in common with the Baroque & Classical (& early Romantic) eras than they do with the middle to late Romantic era, where Karajan and his Berlin orchestra were most at home and arguably at their best. Sibelius shouldn't sound like Tchaikovsky or even Bruckner, in my view, as the scores are more intricate and highly detailed--more Baroque-like, if you will. That's why when I listen to a chamber orchestra in Sibelius--such as the COE (under Berglund) or Uppsala CO (under Gibson)--it is so interesting and illuminating, as the smaller forces allow you to hear every orchestral detail in the score. Achieving such textural clarity is also the reason why Berglund insisted on minimal or reduced vibrato from his strings, and beautifully translucent horns. The result is that Sibelius becomes a very different experience. After all, he didn't write all those details in his scores only to hear them become lost in a mushy, thickened "soup" (the composer's analogy). Rather Sibelius wanted all those details to "float upon the surface", as he said. Clearly, he wasn't happy when his large viola section in Russia drowned out the woodwind section, as quoted above. So, obviously it was important to Sibelius that his whole score be heard.

Karajan's approach is somewhat the opposite of this. Karajan cultivated a heavy string sound in Berlin that was as thick as porridge, and therefore important orchestral details become submerged: especially when the scores are more intricate & highly detailed, as with Sibelius. Granted, the Berliners' approach to Sibelius's tone poems in Karajan's 1984 digital recording for DG is very lush and seductive, but it is at odds with the Finnish tradition, & in my view, wrong-headed: https://www.amazon.com/Jean-Sibeliu...2&sr=1-2&keywords=karajan+sibelius+tone+poems)

Even in Karajan's Berlin Bruckner, where he excels, you don't always hear important orchestral details. You need only compare Karajan's DG Bruckner to Jochum's Bruckner in Dresden, side by side (I'd suggest the 6th symphony), to hear how much more of the score can be heard with Jochum & the Staatskapelle.

The heavy Berlin string sound can also work to impede the orchestra's rhythm as well, since any thickened orchestral sound won't be as nimble and lithe, & will inevitably slow down the rest of the orchestra (the same is true of an overly large choir). To hear this, you need only compare Karajan's Debussy to Dutoit's in Montreal, for instance.


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## Silence of Jarvenpaa

Greetings fellow Sibelians! (I'm a new user.)

I am partial to: 1) Vänskä & the Lahti SO; 2) Berglund and the Chamber Orchestra of Europe; and, 3) Segerstam and the Helsinki PO. I've never quite understood the raves Bernstein, Rattle, and Davis receive as Sibelius interpreters... give me a good Finn any day, I say! I haven't yet been able to obtain Oramo & the City of Birmingham SO, but I'll go to the mat in the opinion that his reading of the "Kullervo Symphony" is the best out there (such energy and drive, and emotional soloists, too... and, yes, I have listened to 13 of the 18 recordings available to the public. I had never thought there would be someone out there to topple sublime Paavo Järvi's interpretation on Virgin Classics, but wow, treat yourself if you haven't heard the Oramo yet; it's available via BBC Music Magazine.); nor have I had a chance to hear Lintu's new DVD set with the Finnish RSO (I'm saving up!). I just obtained the Watanabe 1961 LP set; very much looking forward to hearing it, as soon as I scavenge up a record player!

My opinions aside, *I'm actually here with a request*. I work over at Wikipedia on Sibelius articles, and the one I am currently drafting is [Discography of Sibelius Symphony cycles]. The goal here is to centralize (and thus democratize) information about all complete (and a few incomplete) Sibelius cycles into a sortable table. There are 40+ cycles out there (easily a situation of cognitive overload), and with cycles by Thomas Søndergård and the BBC National Orchestra of Wales, Santtu-Matias Rouvali and the Gothenburg Symphony Orchestra, and Yannick Nézet-Séguin and the Orchestre Métropolitain reportedly in progress, this count is yet to grow.

We only include recording dates and runtimes if we can *find an image to visually confirm* this information (sorry discogs.com and musicbrainz.com and musicweb-international.com); as you can imagine, even exhaustive internet searches can oftentimes turn up empty and many cycles are too expensive for me to purchase individually, as a means to obtain those oft-undigitized but oh-so-important liner notes. *So, I thought: why not call upon the international community of Sibelians for a little research assistance?!* I'm sure that a number of you have in your personal collections the very recording information that the Wikipedia article, at present, lacks. *And, too, even cycles for which the article has complete information could stand an independent review/double-check.*

Would any community-minded Sibelian out there mind providing a helping hand? Do it for our old boy Jean.

Cycles for which the table is missing key recording information [e.g., recording years, OFFICIAL PRINTED runtimes, recording venue]:

1) Vladimir Ashkenazy &	Royal Stockholm PO - need years and runtimes
2) Arvo Volmer & Adelaide SO - need years and recording venue
3) Jukka-Pekka Saraste & Finnish Radio SO [RCA Red Seal] - need years and runtimes
4) Kurt Sanderling & Berlin SO - need years and runtimes
5) Gennady Rozhdestvensky & Moscow Radio SO - need years and recording venue
6) Kim Dae-jin	& Suwon PO - need years, runtimes, and recording venue
7) Sixten Ehrling & Royal Stockholm PO - need years, runtimes, and recording venue
8) Akeo Watanabe & Japan PO [Epic] - need years, runtimes, and recording venue
9) Akeo Watanabe & Japan PO [Denon] - need years, runtimes, and recording venue
10) Paavo Berglund & Chamber Orchestra of Europe - need runtimes

Cells in the table that are highlighted in orange are those that have missing information.

The draft article is available at:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Silence_of_Järvenpää/sandbox#Table_of_complete_cycles

Check it out! I think you'll be impressed and pleased.

Many thanks for your help!!


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## Kiki

I like the fact that you are trying to quote the _recording_ year and even have a note to state that explicitly. Can't say the same for most wiki articles on such subjects.

I can also understand why you are looking for _visual evidence_ (of liner notes and back covers), and are unwilling to take the dates stated by discogs etc. for granted. They are prone to errors, but then honestly even the record labels themselves are not always correct in the recording data! (Melodiya I'm looking at you!)

Anyway, how about the data stated by a record label's official site? E.g. The dates and venues of Ashkenazy's Exton (a sub-label of Octavian) releases can be found in Octavian's web shop -
https://octavia-shop.com/shopdetail/000000000659/
https://octavia-shop.com/shopdetail/000000000669/
https://octavia-shop.com/shopdetail/000000000670/
https://octavia-shop.com/shopdetail/000000000656/

For runtimes you'll need to find the liner notes and/or back covers. In fact I have his disc of Nos. 6 & 7, so here you are - https://1drv.ms/b/s!AixPph3hiAvd1Egpie6VTUQs-37v?e=ztldU0

I can immediately see a problem that you are facing. Exton stated that the four works on this disc were recorded in 2006 and 2007, but did not attribute any date to each of the four works. Therefore you cannot tell whether No. 6 and No. 7 (ignoring Karalia Suite and Valse Triste) were recorded in 2006 or 2007 or both.

Also found the back cover of No. 2 on Amazon with dates, venue and runtimes - https://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Symphony-ROYAL-STOCKHOLM-ASHKENAZY/dp/B000U7PEFE

Happy hunting and good luck!

You did not state whether a recording is "live" or "studio". If you want to do that, you have another problem with the Ashkenazy/Exton discs. They stated "Session & Live", so it is possible that some works were studio (session in Japanese vocabulary), some others live, or some live with a patching session. This is fun, isn't it?


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## jim prideaux

Following this thread with real interest and really enjoying the informative posts.....Sibelius is my favourite composer, others may come and go but he remains a constant!

Three complete cycle?.....tricky!

Many contenders that have already been mentioned including Barbirolli, Gibson, Sanderling and Berglund (the COE cycle is definitely up there)......

but I notice that there is little recognition for Oramo and the CBSO!

As with his marvellous Gothenburg Schumann cycle his recordings can seem to go 'under the radar'.....


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## Silence of Jarvenpaa

jim prideaux said:


> but I notice that there is little recognition for Oramo and the CBSO!
> 
> As with his marvellous Gothenburg Schumann cycle his recordings can seem to go 'under the radar'.....


Again, Oramo's ''Kullervo Symphony'' for BBC Music Magazine is top of the pack, in my opinion. Such power and energy... it revolutionized my understanding (and appreciation) for the work.

I haven't gotten a chance to listen yet to his Sibelius cycle, but Hurwitz did give it a tepid review.

*Anyway, Do you own the Oramo cycle? If so, would you be willing to provide scans from the liner notes?* (I'm trying to verify that the info at musicweb-international and discogs is indeed accurate.)

Looking for runtimes, recording venue, and recording dates. I've searched quite exhaustively for his liner notes, but cannot seem to locate them on the web.

Thanks!


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## Silence of Jarvenpaa

Kiki said:


> I like the fact that you are trying to quote the _recording_ year and even have a note to state that explicitly. Can't say the same for most wiki articles on such subjects.
> 
> I can also understand why you are looking for _visual evidence_ (of liner notes and back covers), and are unwilling to take the dates stated by discogs etc. for granted. They are prone to errors, but then honestly even the record labels themselves are not always correct in the recording data! (Melodiya I'm looking at you!)
> 
> This is fun, isn't it?


Hi! Thanks for your help, as well as the encouragement. That Exton Ashkenazy set has been a real thorn in my side, as I don't read Japanese and it's quite expensive. I really do appreciate you taking a moment to provide me with the evidence (and scans!) that you had (made).

I just today got the Epic Watanabe LPs in the mail. Opened the package greedily, lustily even... and, to my disappointment, there are no liner notes. Sure, I'm excited for the music, but there goes my goal of being able to find the recording information for the cycle straight from the source.

Also, and just for fun, I listened yesterday to the Melodiya Rozhdestvensky cycle on Primephonic (free subscription for two weeks). I was very curious, because one user on this thread had referred to it as "weird." And, how correct they were! Blaring brass, unique phrasing, a bassoonist that seems to have had ambitions for a soloist career... but, you know, it was oddly, comically _charming_. I'll start referring to is as "Sibelius on mescaline," as it was a trip, indeed!


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## Heck148

Silence of Jarvenpaa said:


> Also, and just for fun, I listened yesterday to the Melodiya Rozhdestvensky cycle on Primephonic (free subscription for two weeks). I was very curious, because one user on this thread had referred to it as "weird." And, how correct they were! Blaring brass, unique phrasing, a bassoonist that seems to have had ambitions for a soloist career... but, you know, it was oddly, comically _charming_. I'll start referring to is as "Sibelius on mescaline," as it was a trip, indeed!


For a similar trip - check out Rozh'sky's recording of Sibelius #7, from 1962, with the USSR State Sheetmetal Rippers Orchestra - what a hoot!! It's actually quite good, but the trombone solo is worth the price of admission on its own - typical Russian style for that time - very loud, edgy, blatty sound, huge vibrato- the guy is absolutely blowing his *ss off the whole time...lol!! "Raucous" really doesn't do it justice!!


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## CnC Bartok

First choice, not an easy one, but it would have to be Paavo Berglund. And to cheat, I will put both Helsinki and Bournemouth in first place, probably with a forced nod to the former, as I fell it is rawer than the south coast cycle.
Second, not first purely on sound quality (and it's not at all bad given it's mono) goes to Anthony Collins.
Third, Colin Davis in Boston.

This means I have missed out several wonderful cycles (Gibson, Maazel, Ashkenazy, Jarvi BIS, Vanska in Lahti as mere examples), and I suspect that a new acquisition, Segerstam on Ondine, will become a favourite very soon indeed.


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## Kiki

Silence of Jarvenpaa said:


> I just today got the Epic Watanabe LPs in the mail. Opened the package greedily, lustily even... and, to my disappointment, there are no liner notes. Sure, I'm excited for the music, but there goes my goal of being able to find the recording information for the cycle straight from the source.


Haha! Envy!!

Found the official recording dates/venues for the Watanabe/JapanPO(Denon) from Nippon Columbia's web site (Denon is one of its sub-labels) -
https://columbia.jp/prod-info/COCQ-84283-6/

Look at the Arabic numbers and it should be apparent when the symphonies were recorded.

As for the venues, 
#3 & #6 were recorded in the Narashino Cultural Hall. (Google Map: https://goo.gl/maps/Jnnp1orvtG919yzx5)
The rest were recorded in the Hitomi Memorial Hall at the Showa Women's University. (Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitomi_Memorial_Hall)

For runtimes I found a scan of the booklet on the internet. I've made a copy of it - https://1drv.ms/b/s!AixPph3hiAvd1El9pPE0FiJNnnyp?e=4n4ssZ

--

For the 1962 Watanabe cycle, I found the followings from a Japanese blog (i.e. this is not official) -
http://flac.aki.gs/Music/?p=1726

Scroll down a bit and you'll find a list of the symphonies, their recording dates and venues.

Again the dates should be apparent from the Arabic numbers.

For the venues, 
#1,3,4 were recorded in the Tokyo Bunka Kaikan (Well this hall is too famous to need any verification).
#2,7 were recorded in the Suginami Public Hall (Google Map: https://goo.gl/maps/sutAbaA4GZqvST5m7).
#5,6 were recorded in the Bunkyo Auditorium. (You won't find it on Google Map. It was rebuilt in 1977 and became the Bunkyo Civic Hall according to Wiki (Japanese only): https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/文京公会堂)

I didn't look for runtimes... since you have got the LPs, they should have the runtimes printed.

Enjoy.


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## Silence of Jarvenpaa

Kiki said:


> Enjoy.


Kiki... Wow! Today was supposed to be my Sibelius break (it's disciples day; listening to NZ's Douglas Lilburn, instead... the tone promo _Forest_ and the quartet _Phantasy_, each from his student years, quite clearly 'borrow' (plagiarize?) Sibelius Third Symphony, in my opinion. But the music is nice! Also hear Sibelian touches in Lilburn's First Symphony, Mvt. II of Sibelius's Fifth Symphony, Mvt. II.)

I am admittedly in awe of your research / treasure-hunting abilities. How you found the Watanabe-Denon booklet is beyond me! And, we can piece the Watanabe-Epic info together, I suppose, bit-by-bit. Between your assistance on those, plus on the Ashkenazy-Exton, you seem to have either a love for or a working knowledge of the Asian music scene. Thus, what have you on the Kim-Sony cycle from 2015 (booklet, but for fun, opinions too, if you've heard it)? I have searched and searched, even translating Korean in Google translate, but to know avail.

I'll update the Wikipedia draft table with the Watanabe-Denon information shortly! Thanks again!


----------



## Merl

Silence of Jarvenpaa said:


> Greetings fellow Sibelians! (I'm a new user.)
> 
> I am partial to: 1) Vänskä & the Lahti SO; 2) Berglund and the Chamber Orchestra of Europe; and, 3) Segerstam and the Helsinki PO. I've never quite understood the raves Bernstein, Rattle, and Davis receive as Sibelius interpreters... give me a good Finn any day, I say! I haven't yet been able to obtain Oramo & the City of Birmingham SO, but I'll go to the mat in the opinion that his reading of the "Kullervo Symphony" is the best out there (such energy and drive, and emotional soloists, too... and, yes, I have listened to 13 of the 18 recordings available to the public. I had never thought there would be someone out there to topple sublime Paavo Järvi's interpretation on Virgin Classics, but wow, treat yourself if you haven't heard the Oramo yet; it's available via BBC Music Magazine.); nor have I had a chance to hear Lintu's new DVD set with the Finnish RSO (I'm saving up!). I just obtained the Watanabe 1961 LP set; very much looking forward to hearing it, as soon as I scavenge up a record player!
> 
> My opinions aside, *I'm actually here with a request*. I work over at Wikipedia on Sibelius articles, and the one I am currently drafting is [Discography of Sibelius Symphony cycles]. The goal here is to centralize (and thus democratize) information about all complete (and a few incomplete) Sibelius cycles into a sortable table. There are 40+ cycles out there (easily a situation of cognitive overload), and with cycles by Thomas Søndergård and the BBC National Orchestra of Wales, Santtu-Matias Rouvali and the Gothenburg Symphony Orchestra, and Yannick Nézet-Séguin and the Orchestre Métropolitain reportedly in progress, this count is yet to grow.
> 
> We only include recording dates and runtimes if we can *find an image to visually confirm* this information (sorry discogs.com and musicbrainz.com and musicweb-international.com); as you can imagine, even exhaustive internet searches can oftentimes turn up empty and many cycles are too expensive for me to purchase individually, as a means to obtain those oft-undigitized but oh-so-important liner notes. *So, I thought: why not call upon the international community of Sibelians for a little research assistance?!* I'm sure that a number of you have in your personal collections the very recording information that the Wikipedia article, at present, lacks. *And, too, even cycles for which the article has complete information could stand an independent review/double-check.*
> 
> Would any community-minded Sibelian out there mind providing a helping hand? Do it for our old boy Jean.
> 
> Cycles for which the table is missing key recording information [e.g., recording years, OFFICIAL PRINTED runtimes, recording venue]:
> 
> 1) Vladimir Ashkenazy &	Royal Stockholm PO - need years and runtimes
> 2) Arvo Volmer & Adelaide SO - need years and recording venue
> 3) Jukka-Pekka Saraste & Finnish Radio SO [RCA Red Seal] - need years and runtimes
> 4) Kurt Sanderling & Berlin SO - need years and runtimes
> 5) Gennady Rozhdestvensky & Moscow Radio SO - need years and recording venue
> 6) Kim Dae-jin	& Suwon PO - need years, runtimes, and recording venue
> 7) Sixten Ehrling & Royal Stockholm PO - need years, runtimes, and recording venue
> 8) Akeo Watanabe & Japan PO [Epic] - need years, runtimes, and recording venue
> 9) Akeo Watanabe & Japan PO [Denon] - need years, runtimes, and recording venue
> 10) Paavo Berglund & Chamber Orchestra of Europe - need runtimes
> 
> Cells in the table that are highlighted in orange are those that have missing information.
> 
> The draft article is available at:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Silence_of_Järvenpää/sandbox#Table_of_complete_cycles
> 
> Check it out! I think you'll be impressed and pleased.
> 
> Many thanks for your help!!


Check your PMs.


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## Silence of Jarvenpaa

Merl said:


> Check your PMs.


Outstanding indeed, Merl! I really appreciate your help on this. I have updated the table to include the information you supplied on the Volmer-ABC Classics set, as well as the Saraste-Finnish RSO studio sessions for Finlandia. (By the way, I've never heard either set... is either worth the price of admission or do they struggle to stand out from the pack?) The Sanderling-Brilliant back covers were helpful, too (did you notice the runtime typo for Symphony No. 2?), but those recording dates are, let's say... periods not dates! (Just as Kiki warned re: Melodiya.) Do the liner notes for the Sandering have more exact dates, as well as recording venues? Also, have you the liner notes for Berglund-COE? Still need those runtimes (although, as one of my favorite sets, this is one I'll probably purchase, eventually).

Perhaps, an updated 'needs' list is in order for anyone else who would like to help:

1) Vladimir Ashkenazy & Royal Stockholm PO - Kiki helped as much as they could. Any one else have the full set?
2) Gennady Rozhdestvensky & Moscow Radio SO - need years and recording venue
3) Kim Dae-jin & Suwon PO - need years, runtimes, and recording venue
4) Sixten Ehrling & Royal Stockholm PO - need years, runtimes, and recording venue
5) Akeo Watanabe & Japan PO [Epic] - need years, runtimes, and recording venue
6) Paavo Berglund & Chamber Orchestra of Europe - need runtimes

7) Hannu Lints & Finnish Radio Symphony Orchestra - need DVD or Blu-ray liner notes (specifically, recording dates... some resources say all were recorded in 2015, but one master reviewer on Amazon.com has 2011-14 DD-MM-YYYY info. Where'd he get it?)
8) Paavo Berglund & Helsinki Philharmonic Orchestra - need liner notes to verify table info
9) Sakari Oramo & City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra - need liner notes to verify table info
10) Jukka-Pekka Saraste & Finnish Radio Symphony Orchestra - need liner notes to verify table info

*Achievements board:* 

*Kiki* - GOLD for supplying complete notes to Watanabe-Japan PO on Denon
*Kiki* - SILVER for supplying incomplete notes to Ashkenazy-Royal Stockholm PO on Exton
*Merl* - GOLD for supplying complete notes to Volmer-Adelaide SO on ABC Classics
*Merl* - GOLD for supplying complete notes to Saraste-Finnish RSO on Finlandia (studio)
*Merl* - SILVER for supplying incomplete notes to Sanderling-Berlin SO on Brilliant Classics


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## Brahmsian Colors

Current favorites: sets

Berglund/Chamber Orchestra of Europe
Collins/London Symphony (mono)
---------------------------------------------
Current favorites: Individual interpretations (separate from contents of sets above.):

Symphony 1: Stokowski/National Philharmonic

Symphony 2: Szell/Cleveland Orchestra taped live (1970) from Tokyo

Symphony 3: Kurt Sanderling/Berlin Symphony

Symphony 4: Maazel/Vienna Philharmonic 

Symphony 5: Barbirolli/Halle Orchestra

Symphony 6: Kurt Sanderling/Berlin Symphony Orchestra

Symphony 7: Maazel/Vienna Philharmonic


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## starthrower

I have Berlund/Bournemouth, Vanska/Lahti, and Gibson/Royal Scottish. My current favorite is Gibson.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Bernstein
Barbirolli
Gibson

Then Collins, Rozhdostvensky, Berglund/Bournemouth, Ashkenazy, Maazel

Bernstein’s set doesn’t seem to be talked about very often (maybe the classic Gramophone accusation of “sounding too brash, American,” etc.) but IMO no conductor and orchestra brings out the dazzling kaleidoscopic beauty of the music in vivid Technicolor like Lenny and the New Yorkers. This is exquisitely expressive music, and I like it to be played that way. For a more straight-laced, “Finnish” approach I’m partial to Berglund, and Collins runs a great middle ground as well.


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## Heck148

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Bernstein's set doesn't seem to be talked about very often (maybe the classic Gramophone accusation of "sounding too brash, American," etc.) but IMO no conductor and orchestra brings out the dazzling kaleidoscopic beauty of the music in vivid Technicolor like Lenny and the New Yorkers. This is exquisitely expressive music, and I like it to be played that way.


Absolutely!! Bernstein/NYPO is my favorite Sibelius symphony set by far....I love Lenny's approach - very dramatic, dynamic....and NYPO sounds great, they produce such a colorful, ballsy, gutsy sound for Sibelius - big hefty, string sound, almost raw at times, powerful...great full-throated woodwinds, and industrial strength brass - snarling, growling basses, bassoons, low brass; searing, ripping crescendi...these guys aren't fooling around....I like Toscanini's approach, too, and what I've heard of Blomstedt/SFSO had been very good as well.


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## Silence of Jarvenpaa

Sony Classical's liner notes to the Bernstein-NYPO 2015 remaster are proving to be quite the interesting journey in terms of information verification.

*First, there is the issue of recording dates and venues:*

Information for the 2015 remastered edition (88875026142) is different in places from the earlier 2003 release (SM4K 87329), which it superseded. These discrepancies are as follows:

2003 release: (No. 1) 03/03/1967 in Philharmonia Hall; (No. 2) 05/15/1966 in Philharmonia Hall; (No. 5) 03/27/1961 in Philharmonia Hall; (No. 7) 03/28/1960 & 10/26/1965 in Philharmonia Hall

2015 release: (No. 1) 03/14/1967 in Philharmonia Hall; (No. 2) 05/16/1966 in Philharmonia Hall; (No. 5) 03/27/1961 in Manhattan Hall; (No. 7) 03/28/1960 in Philharmonia Hall

So which is correct? (especially the venue on No. 5)

*Second, there is the issue of who was the first to stereo*:

In the liner notes to the 2015 remaster, Sony Classical promotes the Bernstein-NYPO cycle as "the first complete Sibelius symphony cycle in stereo... there had only been two previous traversals of all seven symphonies on disc, both in mono, both dating from the previous decade" (a reference to the Ehrling-Royal Stockholm PO and Collins-London SO cycles from the 1950s).

This would seem to be incorrect, because Nippon Columbia's 1962 Watanabe-Japan PO cycle was completed in 1962 and distributed to the U.S. by Epic Records in 1966. (The Sony liner notes do not reference Watanabe). So who was the first to stereo? (True, the Watanabe cycle is only available on LP, not CD... but surely the format matters not!)

Ah, our own Sibelian version of the Moon race!


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## Kiki

^

Oh boy, inconsistency in recording data does happen a lot. I suspect at the end of the day it will all come down to which you believe is more credible; or maybe both are correct, with one quoting the original session, the other a patch up session.

And, Silence, I can't send you any PM, with this error message -
_The following errors occurred with your submission
Silence of Jarvenpaa has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space._


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## starthrower

Too bad that remastered Bernstein Sony set disappeared rather quickly. There are virtually no affordable used copies for sale.


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## Knorf

I think my favorite three Sibelius cycles would have to be Kamu/Lahti (not Vänskä), Berglund/COE, and Järvi/Gothenburg on BIS. Honorable mention to the Kamu/Karajan set, or the Karajan EMI incomplete cycle. Saraste/Finnish RSO on RCA is up there for me as well, as well as the easily recommendable earlier Berglund cycles.

Bernstein/NYPO is enjoyable in its way, but way too much Bernstein at the expense of Sibelius. I'm glad I heard it, though. Davis/Boston does little for me; havent heard his LSO set, but I don't think I'm all that curious about it. Blomstedt/SFSO is quite recommendable.

Never heard Maazel/Vienna, either, because I tend to be allergic to Maazel, but probably I should hear it someday. I'm slightly curious about Rattle's Berlin cycle. I found Vänskä's cycles (both Lahti and Minnesota) not especially compelling, but so many people rave about them, I'll probably need to give them another go.

I'm definitely curious about Oramo! Hurwitz is an idiot and I couldn't care less about what he says.


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## Knorf

MacLeod said:


> Rattle, paraphrased: "Karajan has no sense of rhythm."


Without listening to Rattle prattle on to see whether your paraphrase is an accurate portrayal of what Rattle said, that statement as quoted is beyond ignorant, totally ridiculous.

I'd happily, eagerly, without thinking twice, give up every single thing Rattle's ever recorded in his _lifetime_, for a single minute of a single movement of a Sibelius symphony conducted by Karajan. Whatever curiosity I had about Rattle's Berlin Sibelius has evaporated.

(How typical for Talk Classical for there to be so much smug Karajan-bashing in this thread. )

For my money, _no one_ gets Sibelius Symphony 4 or 6 as compellingly as Karajan, although Kamu/Lahti come pretty close. And I remember liking Blomstedt's Sibelius 6 very well (Berglund, too). But Karajan in Sibelius 4 & 6 is something very special, unmatched in my listening experience. The only Karajan Sibelius I'm not fond of his No. 2 (EMI only).

Interestingly, the Second is my favorite from the Bernstein/NYPO cycle...and still is one of my favorite Sibelius recordings ever, even though the set as a whole is down the list for me.


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## vincula

I've got the following cycles on my shelves: Berlund/Bournemouth, Berlund/COE, Watanabe/JPO '62 and Barbirolli/Hallé. And then a bunch of individual recordings. I find myself listening to Barbirolli these days. Somehow I've come back to his recordings after a long hiatus. Some of his manierisms and excesses did annoy me, but I still dig the way he conveys Sibelius broad sense of phrasing. Something Watanabe nails too, even though he's let down by a sub-par orchestra imho. Human and heartfelt renditions nonetheless.

I've listened to Vänskä. He leaves me cold everytime. I think he misses "the big canvas", which I believe it's the Sibelius thing. Must listen more to Oramo. His 7th's a stormer. The newish interpretations by Pieteri Inkinen/New Zealand SO for Naxos are compelling, though still a bit cold and too polished for my tastes.

Regards,

Vincula


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## jim prideaux

Knorf said:


> I think my favorite three Sibelius cycles would have to be Kamu/Lahti (not Vänskä), Berglund/COE, and Järvi/Gothenburg on BIS. Honorable mention to the Kamu/Karajan set, or the Karajan EMI incomplete cycle. Saraste/Finnish RSO on RCA is up there for me as well, as well as the easily recommendable earlier Berglund cycles.
> 
> Bernstein/NYPO is enjoyable in its way, but way too much Bernstein at the expense of Sibelius. I'm glad I heard it, though. Davis/Boston does little for me; havent heard his LSO set, but I don't think I'm all that curious about it. Blomstedt/SFSO is quite recommendable.
> 
> Never heard Maazel/Vienna, either, because I tend to be allergic to Maazel, but probably I should hear it someday. I'm slightly curious about Rattle's Berlin cycle. I found Vänskä's cycles (both Lahti and Minnesota) not especially compelling, but so many people rave about them, I'll probably need to give them another go.
> 
> I'm definitely curious about Oramo! Hurwitz is an idiot and I couldn't care less about what he says.


Knorf......If I am correct in assuming you refer to Oramo's cycle with the CBSO I can also recommend highly!

I picked it up quite cheaply second hand and had little real expectation but it has proven to be particularly impressive......it also includes other orchestral works which add to the attraction of this set.


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## jim prideaux

Had to check that Oramo had not made another series of recordings that I was unaware of...seems that the CBSO cycle is the one we are discussing......now costing a fortune second hand ( on amazonia complete) although you can get the 6/7 for 47 pence!


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## HenryPenfold

I have 23/24 complete Sibelius cycles that I've bought over the last 30 years. 

If I had to quickly grab three off the shelves, it would be ............



Ashkenazy, Philharmonia. Decca. One of my earliest CD purchases, of anything.

Maazel, Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra. Sony.

Anthony Collins, London Symphony Orchestra. Eloquence.


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## jim prideaux

What a shame....thread i was really enjoying now appears inactive!


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## Merl

jim prideaux said:


> What a shame....thread i was really enjoying now appears inactive!


Or is it? I'd like to review some different cycles one day but I'm too busy doing other stuff at the moment. The last (partial) cycle I actually played through was my Sakari Naxos cycle. Nice set but I do remember cranking the volume on a few discs.


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## Heck148

Merl said:


> ....The last (partial) cycle I actually played through was my Sakari Naxos cycle. Nice set but I do remember cranking the volume on a few discs.


I heard #5 on this set, not bad, until the closing section of the work....the theme, balances .... hopelessly flawed - the trumpets and trombones carry the ball, passing it back and forth....that must come thru, and it just got swallowed, disappeared....Bernstein/NYPO gets it perfectly, Gibson/LSO is really good, too...most performances flub this miserably....


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## Malx

Knorf said:


> Without listening to Rattle prattle on to see whether your paraphrase is an accurate portrayal of what Rattle said, that statement as quoted is beyond ignorant, totally ridiculous.
> 
> I'd happily, eagerly, without thinking twice, give up every single thing Rattle's ever recorded in his _lifetime_, for a single minute of a single movement of a Sibelius symphony conducted by Karajan. Whatever curiosity I had about Rattle's Berlin Sibelius has evaporated.
> 
> (How typical for Talk Classical for there to be so much smug Karajan-bashing in this thread. )
> 
> For my money, _no one_ gets Sibelius Symphony 4 or 6 as compellingly as Karajan, although Kamu/Lahti come pretty close. And I remember liking Blomstedt's Sibelius 6 very well (Berglund, too). But Karajan in Sibelius 4 & 6 is something very special, unmatched in my listening experience. The only Karajan Sibelius I'm not fond of his No. 2 (EMI only).
> 
> Interestingly, the Second is my favorite from the Bernstein/NYPO cycle...and still is one of my favorite Sibelius recordings ever, even though the set as a whole is down the list for me.


Interesting you comment on Karajan's 2nd from the EMI recordings - I played it last week for the first time in a good while and was sorely disappointed by it but can't really say why. It just seemed totally lacklustre, lacking any spirit or enthusiasm - is there any technical reason (playing wise) that it sounds so different from the rest of that EMI box.
I thought it was me missing something, but you have reassured me that my ears still appear to be working.

In answer to the OP I'd grab these three if pushed:

Collins LSO.
Berglund COE. (although I love the live LPO recordings as well).
Oramo CBSO.

But as is always the case, ask me next week and I'll have changed my mind.


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## jim prideaux

Malx.....nice to see we are in agreement re Oramo and the Berglund COE.

I suspect I will have to get hold of the Collins cycle at some point!


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## Knorf

Malx said:


> Interesting you comment on Karajan's 2nd from the EMI recordings - I played it last week for the first time in a good while and was sorely disappointed by it but can't really say why. It just seemed totally lacklustre, lacking any spirit or enthusiasm - is there any technical reason (playing wise) that it sounds so different from the rest of that EMI box.


No technical reason that I'm aware of, other than that it's well-known that Karajan for most of his career didn't feel a strong affinity for Nos. 1-3, drastically unlike his almost numinous affinity for Nos. 4-7. Having said that, the First from that EMI box is superb!

To be fair, there are things about the Karajan Sibelius Second that I like very much, especially the second movement. But overall for me it is the weakest of the EMI Sibelius, well off the pace of the gems of Karajan's Sibelius (especially the EMI Fourth, Sixth, and _En Saga_, which are my favorite of all.)


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## Kiki

IMO, if one's baseline is Monteux or Szell, then Karajan's No. 2 may sound lacklustre, but as do most recordings.

I don't have any favourite cycles, but those that have cast a strong impression on me include, Ashkenazy/Philharmonia(Decca), Saraste/FinnishRSO(Finlandia), and any of the Berglund cycles.

But then I tend to find some individual releases more persuasive than the cycles that I've heard. Apart from those of Monteux and Szell, add Kajanus, Koussevitzky, Jansons, Mravinsky and Berglund/LPO.

Out of curiosity, I listened to the Collins No. 2 through streaming. For me, this is Sibelius' "Sea" symphony; and Collin's waves and currents and bashing on the rocks are impressive. I'm looking forward to listening to other symphonies in this cycle.


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## Knorf

Mravinsky's Leningrad Sibelius Seventh is something else, almost shocking. That trombone solo! 

ETA: I myself wouldn't call Karajan's Sibelius 2 lackluster, but I do think his basic tempo in the last movement is too slow and doesn't serve the music very well. He doesn't seem to find the same brooding, wild Ugric spirit that characterizes the best moments of his First and lurks behind even the sunniest moments of the Sixth.


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## Kiki

^^

The Leningrad brass was absolutely mental, always on the verge of cracking up, and it sounds like that in both the 65 and 77 recordings, in fact in most other Mravinsky recordings as well. That gave the symphony a fantastic although unorthodox character at the climaxes.


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## Knorf

Kiki said:


> That gave the symphony a fantastic although unorthodox character at the climaxes.


That's for sure!


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## Heck148

Knorf said:


> Mravinsky's Leningrad Sibelius Seventh is something else, almost shocking. That trombone solo!....


As wild as that one is, the Rozh'sky/USSR from '62 is even crazier - amazingly edgy, blatty, molto vibrato, at top volume the whole time...the guy is absolutely blowing his #ss off.....hilarious, but rather typical of Russian brass playing at the time.
Overall it's actually a pretty decent performance of the symphony....


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## Kiki

How could I forget Rozhdestvensky's Melodiya cycle! I sat through the whole set today (except No. 5). It is crazy, loud, refuse to be subtle; but it also flows fluently, although disregarding some tempo markings, and the orchestral balance is unorthodox but rather interesting in highlighting instruments that are not usually highlighted by others (incidentally Rozh did the same kind of things with Martinů), not to mention the characterful, perfectly imperfect Russian brass. Rozh was a true maverick and he rocks! Can't recommend it as a library set though. It's way off the beaten track.


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## Heck148

Kiki said:


> How could I forget Rozhdestvensky's Melodiya cycle! I sat through the whole set today (except No. 5). It is crazy, loud, refuse to be subtle; but it also flows fluently...


Rozh'sky was a very fine conductor, produced some fine recordings....he certainly has his own approach, same with Mravinsky and Kondrashin...but I find it often appealing, refreshing...
We must also remember that the Russian orchestras of that time had their own approach and tradition...they aren't trying to sound like Vienna, Cleveland, London...


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## Knorf

After talking about it, I decided I needed to hear Karajan/Berliner's EMI Sibelius Second again.

This is not in any way a "bad" performance; in fact, in many respects I think it's very good or even excellent. Interestingly, Karajan doesn't hesitate to bring out the Tchaikovskian elements.

My main personal objections are that I think the tempo slows down too much in the second thematic areas of the first movement, and that the overall tempo of the last movement is too slow and as a consequence lacks sufficient sense of urgency. Too much grandeur, not enough angst. For me, it doesn't quite work. Not quite.

Otherwise, I think this is a really great performance. The second movement is superb, basically as good as anyone, or better, with plenty of dramatic brooding and tremendous bursts of emotion. It's also detailed, poignant, and expressive. I love it! It's the beating, dramatic heart of the symphony, and Karajan and Berlin do it justice to say the least. Rarely in recordings does this movement have such cogency and impact.

And I have no real reservations about the third movement at all; it's simply excellent, although I prefer a tad more explosiveness, a la Bernstein.

So, all in all, a near miss. I'd say worth it for that incredible second movement, but this will never truly be one of my favorites.

Considering that the First, Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Symphonies from this box, not to mention a terrific _En Saga_, are among the most effective performances of all time, the Second does feel a bit of a let down in context. But I wouldn't make too much of it.


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## Kiki

I had two hours before Euro2020 kicks off so I put on Karajan's two Sibelius 2 back to back to kill time... 

To be honest, it is a rather vigorous account, but my problem with both is the grand slowing down in the finale, which sounds like he ran out of steam; but I suppose one may argue that is sublime grandioso. I'm afraid I don't see it that way though.


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## Silence of Jarvenpaa

I wasn't aware that it had! Fortunately, I was able to obtain a set for the holidays when it came out. Unfortunately, I found Bernstein's Sibelius less than compelling (or, perhaps, compelling for the wrong reasons)... Too many interpretive liberties.

But, I should note, I imprinted on Vänskä-Lahti. I wonder to what extent my preferences (and those of others on this thread) are affected by the variable [_first cycle listened to_]... I'm sure cognitive psychologists could tell us the science behind all this, but I do wonder about the counterfactual: _if_ I had heard Bernstein-NYPO _first_, then would I have subsequently found Vänskä-Lahti (or similar traversals, such as Berglund-Bournemouth SO and Sakari-Iceland SO) off-the-mark and interpretively odd?

If fact, I'd love to hear from others:

a) What was the first Sibelius cycle that you heard?
b) Where does this cycle, then, rate in their preference hierarchy? First? Top 3? Top 10? Bottom 10?
c) Do you often find yourself judging other cycles against this one?

Best,
Silence


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## Silence of Jarvenpaa

Heck148 said:


> For a similar trip - check out Rozh'sky's recording of Sibelius #7, from 1962, with the USSR State Sheetmetal Rippers Orchestra - what a hoot!! It's actually quite good, but the trombone solo is worth the price of admission on its own - typical Russian style for that time - very loud, edgy, blatty sound, huge vibrato- the guy is absolutely blowing his *ss off the whole time...lol!! "Raucous" really doesn't do it justice!!


Sadly, I've searched around a bit, but haven't been able to find it online. Might you have a link?

Best,
Silence


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## Silence of Jarvenpaa

Wow! Such a _passionate_ endorsement. Okay, I'll pull the Bernstein-NYPO from the shelf and give it a second listen sometime this week. Perhaps my first impression was as unfair as it was rash!

Blomstedt-SFSO is my choice for SLEEPER CYCLE... I recall it having outstanding sound quality. Maybe it's the venue's acoustics?

I've never listened to the Toscanini. (I tend to struggle is ancient, scrappy soundscapes, but I'm trying to grow.)

Best,
Silence


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## Silence of Jarvenpaa

Knorf said:


> I'd happily, eagerly, without thinking twice, give up every single thing Rattle's ever recorded in his _lifetime_, for a single minute of a single movement of a Sibelius symphony conducted by Karajan.


I'm embarrassed to admit that I've not heard Karajan's Sibelius. Help me please, with your recommendation, to get started: should I prioritize his recordings from 1952-60 with the Philharmonia (Nos. 2, 4, 5, 6, 7) or from 1976-81 with the Berlin Phil (Nos. 1, 2, 4, 5, 6)?

Also, why did Karajan never record the Third? Did he ever even conduct it? He seems to have thought so very highly of Sibelius as a symphonist that it just strikes me as odd that he'd re-re-re-record the Fifth, e.g., and never once touch the Third.

Best,
Silence


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## Silence of Jarvenpaa

Sibelius's Sea Symphony... Is that a reference to Vaughan Williams No. 1? Or Perhaps Howard Hanson No. 7? Or some other reference I'm not picking up on? I'd love to hear your explanation. (And, just to plug my favorite* Sibelius tone poem, _The Oceanides_ IS THE Sibelius Sea Symphony!) 

* Depending on the day, _En saga_ or _Tapiola_ (Forest Symphony?) or _Pohjola's Daughter_ take the cake... I can't decide, much like Malx's mind changing on the Sibelius cycles!!


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## Silence of Jarvenpaa

((sorry... I quite seriously am trying to catch up... hopefully the community doesn't see me as spamming))

I, too, loved the Rozhdestvensky-Mosocw RSO cycle for its hopeless abandon. "Maverick" seems the perfect term! Not a library set? See, provided one makes sure to have the more traditional Sibelius interpretations shelved, I'd want Rozh on my shelf, just for a comparativist's sake. It's the same way I view the Berglund-COE (no one else has sought a _chamber_ feel); indeed, this is part of why that cycle, and not Berglund's two prior traversals, is ensconced in my Top 3.

Listening now to the Mravinsky-Leningrad 1965 (will report back at another time). But, this leads me wonder: Why no Mravinsky cycle? And, further, why just ONE cycle from the Russians, a proud nation with world-class symphonists and conductors? Surely it can't be the Grand Duchy angle?


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## Knorf

Silence of Jarvenpaa said:


> I'm embarrassed to admit that I've not heard Karajan's Sibelius. Help me please, with your recommendation, to get started: should I prioritize his recordings from 1952-60 with the Philharmonia (Nos. 2, 4, 5, 6, 7) or from 1976-81 with the Berlin Phil (Nos. 1, 2, 4, 5, 6)?
> 
> Also, why did Karajan never record the Third? Did he ever even conduct it? He seems to have thought so very highly of Sibelius as a symphonist that it just strikes me as odd that he'd re-re-re-record the Fifth, e.g., and never once touch the Third.


There's also the DG recordings from the 1960s, with Berlin. Those include one of my favorite Sevenths ever.

I don't feel that the Philharmonia recordings offer anything significant over any of the Berlin ones, aside from monophonic sound, which some people can't get enough of. If you're in that camp, then sure go with Philharmonia.

I guess I'd say I like the EMI Berlin partial cycle best overall for Karajan's Sibelius, because the First, Fourth, and Sixth are so very good. But I think I slightly prefer DG Berlin for the Fifth, and you can get the DG Karajan Sibelius with Kamu's excellent Nos. 1-3, so that's pretty recommendable, and the Fourth and Sixth are still very, very good, with a great Seventh.

I don't think Karajan ever conducted Sibelius Third, but I'm not 100% certain about that. I think he would have done a great job with it, but he clearly didn't think so, and that's that.

As I mentioned up thread, Karajan said he didn't have much of an affinity for Nos. 1-3, he despite how well he did the First. He said they were too Tchaikovskian (but why is that a problem?) But for me he's up there with anyone for Nos. 4-7, and the EMI Fourth and Sixth are very special, as is the EMI _Ein Saga_. But I like the digital DG _Tapiola_ best. YMMV.


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## jim prideaux

first encounter with the Collins cycle...started with the 3rd ( unlike HvK one of my favourites from the cycle)....very impressive, seems really 'tight' and precise but not to the detriment any emotive impact!...I really like what he does with the central ( slow 0 movement......Segerstam ( Helsinki/Ondine) is another instance where the central movement acquires an apparently greater significance but Collins seems to achieve that similar impression differently!


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## Kiki

Silence of Jarvenpaa said:


> Sibelius's Sea Symphony... Is that a reference to Vaughan Williams No. 1? Or Perhaps Howard Hanson No. 7? Or some other reference I'm not picking up on? I'd love to hear your explanation. (And, just to plug my favorite* Sibelius tone poem, _The Oceanides_ IS THE Sibelius Sea Symphony!)


This is probably a personal perceptive thing. I've found Sibelius 2 closer in nature to Debussy's La Mer than say RVW's Sea Symphony. Images of powerful waves in a turbulent ocean often come into mind. While La Mer may be rather factual with its awe-inspiring nature, Sibelius 2 may be darker and more heroic at times.

--

I'm onto Collins' No. 6. What a powerhouse! This is not exactly what I have in mind about this symphony, which I'd liken it to magical forest murmurs and vicious storms; but I appreciate very much the assertiveness in the Collins. This is impressive.

I have a question though. About 2/3 into the 2nd movement, the "poco con moto" section is often played like mercurial quick steps. But not in the Collins. I don't know if he changed or maintained the same tempo, but it certainly feels like "a little with motion". Just "a little", certainly not as much as in most recordings. Is my musically illiterate understanding of "poco con moto" correct? Having said that, I have to confess I do like the more apparent quick steps as in most recordings a little bit more.


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## Knorf

For those interested in Karajan's Sibelius, in July Deutsche Grammophon is releasing a box of the complete Berliner Philharmoniker Karajan Sibelius on DG. All of the 60s-era Sibelius has been remastered for the bonus Blu-ray Audio disc. The past Karajan remastered recordings to Blu-ray Audio have never, ever sounded better in any previous incarnation!

However, the digital 1980s Sibelius (including one of the finest _Tapiola_ performances I know) is not included on the B-rA disc, since it was recorded at 44.1khz, 16 bit, and there is no possibility for sonic improvement from that format, although I wish they'd put in on the Blu-ray Disc anyway, for convenience.

I probably won't be getting this, since the edition I have includes the great Kamu First through Third, and it would be too much redundancy even for me. Still, a pretty interesting release. I hope DG keeps the Blu-ray Disc "Pure Audio" editions coming.


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## Lenny1

No mention here as far as I see of the Oramo/CBSO cycle. One that I personally really enjoy because of its directness. A really undervalued cycle IMO


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## jim prideaux

Lenny1 said:


> No mention here as far as I see of the Oramo/CBSO cycle. One that I personally really enjoy because of its directness. A really undervalued cycle IMO


'but I notice that there is little recognition for Oramo and the CBSO!

As with his marvellous Gothenburg Schumann cycle his recordings can seem to go 'under the radar'..'

my post back in May on this thread..rest assured that you are not the only one !


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## dko22

I own two cycles which are exact opposites -- Kurt Sanderling and Vänskä Lahti (don't like him in general since he crossed the pond to Minnesota). The former is very un-Finnish -- big and warmly expressive and a clear first choice overall. I started with Maazel, who is actually quite interesting in his brisk tempi and dynamism, and Berglund Bournemouth which still rates highly. Live I was most impressed by Segerstam in the last three.


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## Merl

I listened to Askenazy's Philharmonia 1st the other day, for the first time in years, and thoroughly enjoyed it. It's a set I need to revisit over the holidays. I'm not much of a fan of Askenazy's conducting, usually, but I do recall enjoying that set a lot when I first bought it.


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## Rmathuln

Knorf said:


> For those interested in Karajan's Sibelius, in July Deutsche Grammophon is releasing a box of the complete Berliner Philharmoniker Karajan Sibelius on DG. All of the 60s-era Sibelius has been remastered for the bonus Blu-ray Audio disc. The past Karajan remastered recordings to Blu-ray Audio have never, ever sounded better in any previous incarnation!
> 
> However, the digital 1980s Sibelius (including one of the finest _Tapiola_ performances I know) is not included on the B-rA disc, since it was recorded at 44.1khz, 16 bit, and there is no possibility for sonic improvement from that format, although I wish they'd put in on the Blu-ray Disc anyway, for convenience.
> 
> I probably won't be getting this, since the edition I have includes the great Kamu First through Third, and it would be too much redundancy even for me. Still, a pretty interesting release. I hope DG keeps the Blu-ray Disc "Pure Audio" editions coming.


I will not pass this one by. The 60s recordings are classics.


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## GrosseFugue

Knorf said:


> For those interested in Karajan's Sibelius, in July Deutsche Grammophon is releasing a box of the complete Berliner Philharmoniker Karajan Sibelius on DG. All of the 60s-era Sibelius has been remastered for the bonus Blu-ray Audio disc. The past Karajan remastered recordings to Blu-ray Audio have never, ever sounded better in any previous incarnation!


This is awesome news! Thank you. You saved me from purchasing the older DG Original Image-Bit release. I hear the violin concerto is also one of the best.

But I wish they leave the Blu-Ray disc as a separate item. Is Blu-Ray audio still a thing? You need a TV, right? I don't own a TV. Also, it's limiting in that you can't burn it, you can't play it your car...etc.


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## Rmathuln

GrosseFugue said:


> This is awesome news! Thank you. You saved me from purchasing the older DG Original Image-Bit release. I hear the violin concerto is also one of the best.
> 
> But I wish they leave the Blu-Ray disc as a separate item. Is Blu-Ray audio still a thing? You need a TV, right? I don't own a TV. Also, it's limiting in that you can't burn it, you can't play it your car...etc.


Yes, you need a TV and a BluRay player unless you do rip the audio.
Which, by the way, is possible. And I do, as I dislike the BluRay selection interface on the TV most of the time.

I use AnyDVD to make the BluRay available to rip on PC, then rip with DVD Audio Extractor (to lossless FLAC at the highest available resolution, even 192k), and finally tag the files with MP3Tag.


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## Knorf

No, no: you do _not_ need a TV to enjoy Blu-ray audio discs. Not at all. Just a compatible disc player. I always just use the remote that came with my player to select tracks and leave the TV off.


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## GrosseFugue

Knorf said:


> For those interested in Karajan's Sibelius, in July Deutsche Grammophon is releasing a box of the complete Berliner Philharmoniker Karajan Sibelius on DG. All of the 60s-era Sibelius has been remastered for the bonus Blu-ray Audio disc. The past Karajan remastered recordings to Blu-ray Audio have never, ever sounded better in any previous incarnation!


I should've asked: are the CDs in this new set also remastered? Or only the Blu-Ray?
If CDs are remastered I'm wondering how much sonic improvement one can expect?
The previous Original-Image-Bit remastering is known to be pretty darn good.
I've got other Karajan using that tech and they are excellent.
So I doubt it'll be a night & day difference.

Thanks for any input!


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## Brahmsian Colors

Updated from four years ago. Currently, no favorite complete sets. Individual preferences only:

Symphony 1...Maazel/Vienna Philharmonic
Symphony 2...Szell/Cleveland Orchestra (rec. live in Tokyo)
Symphony 3,,,Sanderling/Berlin Symphony (not the Philharmonic)
Symphony 4...Maazel/Vienna Philharmonic
Symphony 5...Barbirolli/Halle Orchestra
Symphony 6...Sanderling/Berlin Symphony
Symphony 7...Maazel/Vienna Philharmonic


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