# What are your favorite Brahms Fourths?



## Gray Bean (May 13, 2020)

Just for collecting purposes, could you list your favorite recording(s) of the Brahms Symphony No. 4 in e minor?


----------



## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

My favorites:

Wilhelm Furtwängler (1949) (Tahra, Preiser, Seven Seas)
Felix Weingartner (EMI, Living Era, Andante)
Arturo Toscanini (1935) (EMI, Arkadia)
Otto Klemperer (1954) (Testament)
Carlos Kleiber (DG)
Claudio Abbado (DG)
Fritz Reiner (Chesky)
Eduard van Beinum (Philips)

And then additional listening:

Wilhelm Furtwängler (1943) (Music & Arts), Wilhelm Furtwängler (1948) (EMI), Arturo Toscanini (1952) (Testament, Pristine), Victor de Sabata (DG, Andante), Leopold Stokowski (Phild.) (Archipel), Rudolf Kempe (Testament), Herbert von Karajan (1978) (DG), Willem Mengelberg (Teldec, Naxos), Leonard Bernstein (DG), Leopold Stokowski (IMP), Karl Böhm (1938) (Iron Needle), Eugen Jochum (EMI), Eugen Jochum (DG), Bruno Walter (Music & Arts), Hermann Abendroth (Biddulph), Karl Böhm (DG), Arturo Toscanini (RCA), Carlo Maria Giulini (DG), Bruno Walter (Sony)


----------



## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

My top four in descending order:

Furtwängler (any of them)
Jochum (both)
Abbado
Kleiber


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Of the relatively modern ones, 

- Abbado had a lovely way with Brahms (and Brahms may be my biggest reason for holding him is high esteem);
- Harnoncourt;
- Kleiber; 
- Kempe;
- Sanderling;
- Zehetmair (recent and a very different take - sample before buying!).

There are several others that I enjoy a lot but the above would keep me happy for several lifetimes.


----------



## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

I like Klemperer on EMI. Some find him a bit heavy-handed, but I don't, not in this piece anyway. That particular judgment seems to me to be a case of "give a dog a bad name and hang him" syndrome.


----------



## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)




----------



## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

So many good ones! A short list for me:

Skrowaczewski/Saarbrücken. This incredible performance is currently my favorite.
Abbado/Berlin.
Kleiber/Vienna.
Wand/NDR.
Chailly/Leipzig.
Walter/Columbia.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Animal the Drummer said:


> I like Klemperer on EMI. Some find him a bit heavy-handed, but I don't, not in this piece anyway. That particular judgment seems to me to be a case of "give a dog a bad name and hang him" syndrome.


Not with me. I listened to the EMI Klemp and found it to be the weakest of his cycle. Just not flexible enough for this work. Has nothing to do with prejudgment. But his live 1954 on Testament is a completely different story.

And his EMI 1st and 2nd are both favorites of mine.


----------



## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Have a lovely recording in a box set by RLPO and Marek Janowski. Not heard of the conductor but love this orchestra anyway and more than impressed with this cycle


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Carlos Kleiber did an incandescent Brahms fourth. I’ve also got a good one that Stokowski made as an old man - full of life. And Karajan’s is fine.


----------



## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Furtwangler 1949 Tahra
Hans Schmidt-Isserstedt
Furtwangler 1948 EMI


----------



## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Not with me. I listened to the EMI Klemp and found it to be the weakest of his cycle. Just not flexible enough for this work. Has nothing to do with prejudgment. But his live 1954 on Testament is a completely different story.
> 
> And his EMI 1st and 2nd are both favorites of mine.


It's because the reading is so monumental that I enjoy it. Unlike you I see it as entirely suitable for the music.

But _vive la différence_. Wouldn't it be a boring old world if we all liked the same things?


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Reiner/RoyPO
Toscanini/NBC

both magnificent - really deliver the goods...top of the heap.
Solti is really good, and the Kleiber/VPO is good also...


----------



## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Animal the Drummer said:


> It's because the reading is so monumental that I enjoy it. Unlike you I see it as entirely suitable for the music.
> 
> But _vive la différence_. Wouldn't it be a boring old world if we all liked the same things?


Absolutely. I came around on Klemp's St Matthew Passion. Maybe I'll eventually come around on this one. But for now, no.


----------



## Bigbang (Jun 2, 2019)

Haitink-- Concertgebouw orchestra Amsterdam, 1972. I have some of those brought up here but I think this is overlooked and is out of print I believe.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Reiner/RPO on Chesky is a very beautiful sounding, well-balanced version. If you're in the mood for straight-laced, warm, autumnal Brahms without too much angst and drama, that is a good one to pop into the player on occasion.


----------



## Boltzmann Brain (Jan 12, 2020)

Carlos Kleiber with the Vienna Philharmonic (1980) is difficult to surpass.
Abbado with the Berlin Philharmonic (1991) comes really close, especially with a massively charged final movement.

Of the more recent ones I really like Riccardo Chailly's dynamic version with the Gewandhausorchester Leipzig and its great clarity. A fine way to close one of the best Brahms symphony cycles ever.


----------



## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Van Beinum/Amsterdam (Royal) Concertgebouw on Philips
Walter/Columbia Symphony on Columbia/Sony
Klemperer/Philharmonia Orchestra on EMI


----------



## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

My favorite Brahms thirds and sixths:


----------



## Gray Bean (May 13, 2020)

Reiner/Royal Philharmonic
Bernstein/Vienna Philharmonic (great cycle)
Kleiber/Vienna Philharmonic
Abbado/Berlin Philharmonic (great cycle)
Walter/Columbia Symphony (great cycle)
Furtwangler/Berlin Philharmonic (my top favorite)
And I would also add these cycles: Jochum EMI, Wand NDRSO, and the live Toscanini set on Testament with the Philharmonia in its glory days.


----------



## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Zehetmair*
Janowski*
Wand
Skrowaczewski (Saarbrucken)*
Sanderling
Levine*
Kleiber
Walter / Columbia
Jochum / LPO

(* outstanding)


----------



## Kollwitz (Jun 10, 2018)

Furtwangler '43, BPO
Kleiber, VPO
Giulini, CSO
Mackerras, Scottish Chamber Orchestra
Haitink, Concertgebouw

The Haitink is very good indeed. I got it as part of the Symphony Edition box which has an array of his Concertgebouw recordings on Phillips. The whole cycle is really good, with the 4th a highlight.


----------



## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

One already mentioned, the rest a reflection of my apparently unusual taste. In this order:

Ormandy/Philadelphia, 1968, CBS (remastered and issued by Sony)
Stokowski/New Philharmonia, 1974, RCA
Sawallisch/Wiener Symphoniker, 1963, Decca
Walter/Columbia, 1960, CBS
Dorati/London SO, 1963, Mercury Living Presence


----------



## Guest (May 23, 2020)

DavidA said:


> Carlos Kleiber did an incandescent Brahms fourth. I've also got a good one that Stokowski made as an old man - full of life. And Karajan's is fine.


Absolutely correct about Carlos Kleiber. This performance was found on a CD in his car player a day or so after he'd died; he was making the final journey by car from Munich to Slovenia, knowing it was to be his last. I always think of this when I listen to the Kleiber Brahms 4. He was very proud of it.

He's so very much missed.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

The Kleiber is indeed a marvelous account full of dynamism and top-notch musical storytelling. However, I often get the feeling that he is putting his orchestra on overdrive. For more lush, patient, autumnal accounts I would recommend the gorgeous Abbado first and foremost, followed by the Walter/Columbia which, like all his stereo recordings, is a touch too subdued for me but still expertly conducted. The stereo Stokowski is a great balance between the two approaches - swift and inexorable with a great grasp of the architecture, but still very well detailed. He goes a little crazy in the first movement coda though. I recently heard Toscanini in this for the first time and thought it was surprisingly flexible and lyrical. Of course I still revere Jochum and Furtwangler as the two greatest Brahms interpreters on record.


----------



## Guest (May 23, 2020)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> The Kleiber is indeed a marvelous account full of dynamism and top-notch musical storytelling. However, I often get the feeling that he is putting his orchestra on overdrive. For more lush, patient, autumnal accounts I would recommend the gorgeous Abbado first and foremost, followed by the Walter/Columbia which, like all his stereo recordings, is a touch too subdued for me but still expertly conducted. The stereo Stokowski is a great balance between the two approaches - swift and inexorable with a great grasp of the architecture, but still very well detailed. He goes a little crazy in the first movement coda though. I recently heard Toscanini in this for the first time and thought it was surprisingly flexible and lyrical. Of course I still revere Jochum and Furtwangler as the two greatest Brahms interpreters on record.


You've expressed your ideas about this very poetically; I just disagree about the Kleiber. It's the intensity and white heat which was a feature of Kleiber's interpretations. Sadly, he didn't do nearly enough and there are many theories about this. I'm intrigued by the word "overdrive" because that's the exact word I've always used to describe what happens towards the end of the first movement when it literally does go into overdrive; you probably know that section I'm talking about. A huge revving up and then up to the next level. You might also be interested to know that there is some symmetry here; Kleiber was a great car enthusiast and drove very quickly. In fact, he was almost killed in an accident near Zurich and you'd still see the forehead scar above his left eye as a reminder of that. Here is the evidence:






I have Karajan and Haitink versions and they're both very fine but after CK they seem to just 'sag' in the middle at times. Of course, this is entirely subjective - and let's celebrate diversity of thought. It's so very rare these days!!


----------



## Gray Bean (May 13, 2020)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> The Kleiber is indeed a marvelous account full of dynamism and top-notch musical storytelling. However, I often get the feeling that he is putting his orchestra on overdrive. For more lush, patient, autumnal accounts I would recommend the gorgeous Abbado first and foremost, followed by the Walter/Columbia which, like all his stereo recordings, is a touch too subdued for me but still expertly conducted. The stereo Stokowski is a great balance between the two approaches - swift and inexorable with a great grasp of the architecture, but still very well detailed. He goes a little crazy in the first movement coda though. I recently heard Toscanini in this for the first time and thought it was surprisingly flexible and lyrical. Of course I still revere Jochum and Furtwangler as the two greatest Brahms interpreters on record.


A post after my own heart.


----------



## Helgi (Dec 27, 2019)

The only thing I find lacking in Kleiber's 4th is rhythmic drive, it's a bit smoothed over in places. But other than that there is so much to love — musical storytelling is a nice way to put it.


----------



## Bigbang (Jun 2, 2019)

I agree with the overdrive as it fits his personality. But here is the thing, conductors that are possessed (in a good way) are able to use that ability in a way to convey this sense of urgency to the audience. 

The question is this--if the materialists are right it is merely anatomical, but if we co exist with the spiritual realm then it must get to us via some way beyond physical means. Of course this applies to all music. So of course CK stands out for this one aspect of his Brahms 4th.....he got his orchestra to deliver the goods.


----------



## nncortes (Oct 5, 2014)

Karajan and Kleiber


----------



## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Christabel said:


> . . . and let's celebrate diversity of thought. It's so very rare these days!!


Which is rare? Diversity, or its celebration?


----------



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Haitink's LSO version. Did I mention I hate Klieber's version?


----------



## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Phil loves classical said:


> Haitink's LSO version. Did I mention I hate Klieber's version?


"Hate"? _Hate_? Really?

.... isn't that a bit much?


----------



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Knorf said:


> "Hate"? _Hate_? Really?
> 
> .... isn't that a bit much?


Ok, not as much as I hate Furtwangler's. I find Brahms orchestral music a bit hard to swallow when played with sudden tempo or large changes. That is where i feel they over-interpret.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> Ok, not as much as I hate Furtwangler's. I find Brahms orchestral music a bit hard to swallow when played with sudden tempo or large changes. That is where i feel they over-interpret.


Reiner will probably be your cup of tea. Very beautiful, straight-laced recording.


----------



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Reiner will probably be your cup of tea. Very beautiful, straight-laced recording.


You're right. I do like it. A bit faster than I'm used to, but I can adjust.


----------



## 1996D (Dec 18, 2018)

Bernstein and Kleiber both with Vienna. Bernstein's 2nd movement is very special.

I'm actually quite surprised other conductors don't slow it down, the main theme has so much potential, and Bernstein brings it out exquisitely.


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Phil loves classical said:


> Haitink's LSO version. Did I mention I hate Klieber's version?


Hate It?? Kleiber's is very good...not quite up to Reiner or Toscanini, but still, a fine effort...Toscanini and Reiner really build it...by the last movement, it's really humming along, wonderful flow...and the big climaxes are delivered with a shattering power...


----------



## Gray Bean (May 13, 2020)

Mine are a mixed bag!
Reiner/RPO
Kleiber/VPO
Bernstein/VPO...yes, that second movement is special.
Karajan/BPO (any)
Furtwangler/BPO 1949
Boult/LPO
Jochum/LSO


----------



## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

Phil loves classical said:


> Haitink's LSO version. Did I mention I hate Klieber's version?





Phil loves classical said:


> Ok, not as much as I hate Furtwangler's. I find Brahms orchestral music a bit hard to swallow when played with sudden tempo or large changes. That is where i feel they over-interpret.


It's OK Phil. We all have horrible taste in something. Yours just happens to be in Brahm's 4th. Mine happens to be in swimming shorts. We're just different.

V


----------



## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Varick said:


> It's OK Phil. We all have horrible taste in something. Yours just happens to be in Brahm's 4th. Mine happens to be in swimming shorts. We're just different.


Eh, there are worse things to have horrible taste in. Like beer.

My wife says my most horrible taste is in dinners I make for myself when she's not home. :lol:


----------



## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

To the OP:

- Furtwangler/BPO
- Klemperer/Philharmonia
- Kleiber/VPO
- And there is an obscure Brahms Symphony Cycle that few have heard of and probably fewer have: Leif Segerstam: Staatsphilharmonic Rheinland-Pfalz. I got these recordings when my company managed Leif back in the early '90s. They are excellent performances with fantastic sound.

There are many I need to check out. I only have 7 recordings of this piece. So much music, so little time!

V


----------



## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

Knorf said:


> Eh, there are worse things to have horrible taste in. Like beer.


Or scotch, or wine, or gin.



Knorf said:


> My wife says my most horrible taste is in dinners I make for myself when she's not home. :lol:


Every wife says that.

V


----------



## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Varick said:


> Or scotch, or wine, or gin.


True.



> Every wife says that.


Hahaha, all too true.


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Knorf said:


> Eh, there are worse things to have horrible taste in. Like beer.
> 
> My wife says my most horrible taste is in dinners I make for myself when she's not home. :lol:


LOL!! My wife hated my taste in TV watching, mainly if I was watching boxing!! Once there were two boxing matches on different channels- of course, I was channel-hopping between them..didn't want to miss anything!! Gawd, did I take grief for that one!! LOL!!


----------



## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

My favourite Brahms 4 is probably the Kleiber recording on DGG, don't know if anyone else likes it or has even heard it.....:angel:

Am I allowed a few more that have stood out as stupendous for me? I'd also include:
Eugen Jochum's EMI recording with the London Phil
Stanislav Skrowaczewski in Manchester (I don't yet know the Saarbrucken reading)
Jiří Bělohlávek's recording with the Czech Phil (a really under-rated cycle that does a better job than most of bringing out the fact that Brahms wrote some very beautiful music)
Klemperer (I don't find the 3rd movement weird at all...)


----------



## premont (May 7, 2015)

Gray Bean said:


> Mine are a mixed bag!
> Reiner/RPO
> Kleiber/VPO
> Bernstein/VPO...yes, that second movement is special.
> ...


Thanks for mentioning the Boult recording, which is my favorite along with Klemperer / Philharmonia Orch. and Walter / Columbia SO. I agree with Brahmsianhorn that the Klemperer live version with the Royal Danish Orchestra on Testament is outstanding. I have not heard the CD, but I heard the concert (also including the Eroica) when it was broadcasted live by the Danish radio. Brahmsianhorn writes 1954, but I am sure, that it was a couple of years later, which means 1957 or 58.


----------



## Bigbang (Jun 2, 2019)

Phil loves classical said:


> Haitink's LSO version. Did I mention I hate Klieber's version?


Are you sure you mean Haitink's LSO and not RCO from the 70's? Hardly anyone picks the LSO over RCO. I have his Brahms 1st and it is even better. If I could find a complete cycle in my musings I would jump on it.


----------



## Gray Bean (May 13, 2020)

I seem to remember Haitink recording a cycle with Boston Symphony, too.


----------



## Bigbang (Jun 2, 2019)

Gray Bean said:


> I seem to remember Haitink recording a cycle with Boston Symphony, too.


Correct but it also seems to be passed over.


----------



## Gray Bean (May 13, 2020)

Bigbang said:


> Correct but it also seems to be passed over.


Well I just ordered a used copy of that cycle. Looking forward to hearing it. The Boult cycle on EMI has long been one of my favorites but it doesn't get much comment these days.


----------



## Bigbang (Jun 2, 2019)

Gray Bean said:


> Well I just ordered a used copy of that cycle. Looking forward to hearing it. The Boult cycle on EMI has long been one of my favorites but it doesn't get much comment these days.


Which one, the RCO or Boston? I have not heard his Boston Brahms Cycle.


----------



## Gray Bean (May 13, 2020)

The Boston cycle. I’ve never heard it. I have the RCO set and find it very good, indeed. Haven’t heard his LSO Live cycle.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Haitink’s RCO set is interpretively no-frills as you might expect from him, but there’s some extraordinary playing going on there. A good recommendation for a more “straightforward” Brahms cycle IMO. There’s a set of them that comes with his Brahms piano concerto recordings with Arrau.


----------



## Gray Bean (May 13, 2020)

Haitink is underrated by many self-styled critics, but I have always enjoyed most of his recordings: Brahms, Bruckner, Mahler, Debussy, Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky, Shostakovich. His Beethoven...not as much, but it's better than some. he is an excellent musician who avoids flash and hopping from one gig to another. 

Kurt Masur is another such conductor.. I like the Brahms box set from Eloquence with the 4 symphonies, concerti, overtures and Hungarian Dances...Masur/Gewandhaus. Beautiful orchestral playing. Unfussy music making. Very Fine soloists. Great sound. I often love Masur's way with some composers even though he doesn't get much praise in certain quarters. Another example: love his Tchaikovsky cycle with the GOL.


----------



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Bigbang said:


> Are you sure you mean Haitink's LSO and not RCO from the 70's? Hardly anyone picks the LSO over RCO. I have his Brahms 1st and it is even better. If I could find a complete cycle in my musings I would jump on it.


Ya, LSO for sure. I feel the music is a lot more alive there than in the RCO version. I feel Haitink was prone to overthinking (which kind of drove me nuts) until his later years. His latest version of Bruckner 8 with the VPO was also very good in my opinion.


----------



## AClockworkOrange (May 24, 2012)

Two of my favourite Brahms Fourth Symphonies are both by an underrated Brahmsian, Sir Adrian Boult - both in his EMI recording with either the London Philharmonic or Symphony Orchestra (his EMI cycle is recorded with both Orchestras I cannot off hand remember which performed which) and with the Royal Philharmonic on the ICA Classics label. Boult's Brahms as a whole, the 4 Symphonies and 2 Serenades are excellent. 

Klemperer is a favourite Brahmsian of mine too and the Philharmonia sound fantastic. 

I enjoy the Furtwängler Fourth too. This was my introduction to the piece in the EMI Brahms cycle.

Celibidache also shines in Brahms, both with the Italian Radio/Television Orchestra and the later Munich recording. I prefer the latter Munich recording of the two but both Fourths are excellent.

Leonard Bernstein’s Vienna recording made a very positive impression on me.

Abbado’s Berlin recording surprised me. I’ve tended to find Abbado quite inconsistent with the Berliners but his Brahms Symphonies and Orchestral works are really enjoyable. I cannot comment on the requiem but the Symphonies - including the Fourth are great.

*edit - I haven’t heard Jochum (EMI), Wand or Skrowaczewski’s recordings yet. I own them but haven had chance to listen as yet.


----------



## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Please allow me to support the praise Boult's very fine survey is getting on here. I heard him perform Brahms 4 in concert many moons ago and that was every bit as impressive.


----------



## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I have all of Haitink's Brahms cycles and tbh there's very little between them (his interpretations haven't changed that much over time) but the RCO set is more free-flowing. However, If you can get the Boston set on the cheap it's a really good one in good digital sound. The LSO set is really well played but let down (as usual) by the stark acoustic of the Barbican, which seems to strip some warmth from the performances.


----------



## Gray Bean (May 13, 2020)

I’ve always been surprised that Boult’s Brahms isn’t more appreciated. I’ve always found it wonderful. I did find the Haitink Boston cycle on the cheap. I’m watching the post!


----------

