# Edgard Varèse



## Bach

A miraculous composer

Thoughts?


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## Guest

Indeed. Every time I put on disc of his, I'm struck by how fresh and new it all still seems. Utterly logical, utterly unique and individual pieces, too (though each of them obviously by just the one guy).

Miraculous is le mot juste.


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## danae

And think of how small his overall output is!


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## Weston

My only knowledge of him is anecdotal as he appears in Frank Zappa's biography as an early influence. I have heard his _Arcana_ only -- it was included on a disc of Holst's _The Planets_.

What are your recommendations for works?


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## danae

Certainly Density 21.5, Ameriques, Poeme Electronique, Hyperprism and Ionisation. To be exact, almost all of his very few works are masterpieces. You should listen to all of them. But I would advise you to start with these. 
And BTW, Weston, I sent you a p.m. Can you read it please?


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## Habib

*A great composer of the C20th*

One of the great composers...especially like his Deserts which takes you on a journey through strange and inhospitable landscapes. But most of all, these are deserts of the mind rather than just physical wastelands. And also like his Ameriques which conjures up images of the urban and real jungles; I especially like the use of a siren which sounds like a fire engine rushing through the busy streets of a city.

It's a pity that his music is not performed that much live (well, anyway, here in Sydney that's the case, I don't really know about elsewhere). Although I do have a recording that was made during the Warsaw Festival with the Polish National Radiio Symphony Orchestra. In any case, its good that there are some very good recordings of his work available. I have the above recording which was put out by Naxos.


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## Sid James

One of the great iconoclasts of 2oth century music. Even the most radical works of other composers appear more conventional when compared to those by Varese.

Some great quotes of his:

"Contrary to general belief an artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs."

"I refuse to limit myself to sounds that have already been heard."

"I am not a musician. I work with rhythms, frequencies and intensities. Tunes are the gossips in music."

(As a 20 year old student to his teacher Saint-Saens): "I have no desire to become an old powdered wig like you!"

Early in his career he was admired by such musical and artistic figures as Debussy, Richard Strauss, Busoni, Guiliiaume Apollinaire, Pablo Picasso, Roussel, Widor, Hugo von Hofmannstahl and Roman Roland. Most of his early works are lost to us, as they were destroyed when a Berlin warehouse storing them burnt down in 1913. These included Rhapsodie romane, Prelude a la fin d'un jour, Gargantua and Mehr Licht. Still, later in 1962, the composer destroyed a number of his works, including the symphonic poem Bourgogne. His earliest work to survive today is the song Un grand sommeil noir from 1906.

Varese's music clearly lays down a challenge to us to think about the uncertainties, ambiguities and ambivalence that the modern world is made up of.


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## Weston

I am resurrecting this thread (for that is what the composer guestbooks are for, are they not?) to ask some questions about Varèse's _Arcana_. I have spent much of the weekend seriously listening to it and little else, in the hopes that memorizing it will help me appreciate it. This method worked for me as a kid listening to Ligeti's _Atmospheres_ though the pieces have nothing in common other than both eschew 19th century common practice.

So far I haven't memorized it, but I am making a dent in understanding I think. I still have a long way to go. The allmusic guide has this to say about the work:



allmusic.com said:


> In this work, a kind of a freely extended passacaglia, a basic 11-note musical idea is subjected to all kinds of permutations and variations, eventually returning in an echo of its original shape just before a coda.


So my questions:

What is it that makes this a passacaglia? This is a far cry from a walk in the park, which the term passacaglia tends to denote.

Why am I only hearing a six note motif rather than an "eleven note musical idea?" Are the six notes I'm hearing repeated with a slight variation making eleven and I'm just not picking up on it?

I do hear this motif resurface once in a while throughout the piece, but in between is a lot of discordant ominous orchestral stabs with seemingly unrelated percussion layered on top. Is the motif or "musical idea" still residing hidden in those sections somewhere and I'm just not catching it?

Does anyone have an idea why the ominous discordant sections would have light and airy ticky-tock, clippy-clop percussion layered over the top? These seem completely out of place to my ears.

What else am I supposed to be getting out of this work? I do hear the various orchestral colors and timbres being explored, but surely there is more to it than that.

I know that's a lot of tedious questions and a long tedious post, but any advice, even months or years later, will be much appreciated.


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## emiellucifuge

Just received his complete works in the mail (RCO/ASKO with Chailly). After a few cursory listens I must agree with the above comments. I hope to get back to you after Ive discovered the music a little.


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## Guest

_Arcana_'s a rich and lovely work to be sure. One of my favorites.

Here's my advice, Weston. One, don't worry about whether the opening motif is six notes or eleven. (However I slice it, I always come up with something other than eleven. Though six is always too short--that first figure includes the pause. That is, the pause does not signal the end of the figure.)

Two, try to jettison the associations. _Passacaglia_ probably shouldn't denote a walk in the park. It's just a form, like _sonata._ And even more importantly, the ominous orchestral stabs. Try not to think of things like "ominous." (Or even stabbing, for that matter.) Then the percussion bits might seem less arbitrary.

Indeed, best to let the music play, with all the sounds going just as Varese put them in, and just listen. It seems like analysis is simply kicking in too early for enjoyment. Analysis, I would say, is not a means to understand the music so much as it is a way to articulate what you have come to understand. If the analyses you're reading come to different conclusions than you come to, so be it. Just don't let those conclusions guide your listening is all. (I had become thoroughly familiar with that piece before I heard it described as a kind of passacaglia, for instance. And so that description for me while interesting was not very useful. And it still doesn't really intrude on my listening while I'm listening.)

Anyway, hope that helps. It's a lovely piece and well worth getting to know!


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## HarpsichordConcerto

some guy said:


> _Arcana_'s a rich and lovely work to be sure. One of my favorites.
> 
> Here's my advice, Weston. One, don't worry about whether the opening motif is six notes or eleven. (However I slice it, I always come up with something other than eleven. Though six is always too short--that first figure includes the pause. That is, the pause does not signal the end of the figure.)
> 
> Two, try to jettison the associations. _Passacaglia_ probably shouldn't denote a walk in the park. It's just a form, like _sonata._ And even more importantly, the ominous orchestral stabs. Try not to think of things like "ominous." (Or even stabbing, for that matter.) Then the percussion bits might seem less arbitrary.
> 
> Indeed, best to let the music play, with all the sounds going just as Varese put them in, and just listen. It seems like analysis is simply kicking in too early for enjoyment. Analysis, I would say, is not a means to understand the music so much as it is a way to articulate what you have come to understand. If the analyses you're reading come to different conclusions than you come to, so be it. Just don't let those conclusions guide your listening is all. (I had become thoroughly familiar with that piece before I heard it described as a kind of passacaglia, for instance. And so that description for me while interesting was not very useful. And it still doesn't really intrude on my listening while I'm listening.)
> 
> Anyway, hope that helps. It's a lovely piece and well worth getting to know!


I found _Arcana_ (1925 - 1927) quite listenable, and moderately enjoyable. Dramatic and full of disturbing vigour, which reminded me of old thriller movie scores or to that effect. Quite an exciting piece to listen to. Has this piece been used in movies or with such Hollywood-ish intention when composed? I'm curious. I think it's a fine piece of music.

Unfortunately, I cannot share the same level of enthusiasm for some of his other works. _Poème électronique_ (1958), belongs to the weird electronic fart, crappy junk category. My understanding is Varese didn't compose a lot of music; his complete oeuvre can fill up 2 CDs. So it's ashame to see him writing weird junk when he was clearly capable of doing far better, as I discovered with _Arcana_.


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## Weston

Oh -- I sort of like this weird electronic fart, crappy junk. The video is cool too. But I think the point about old thriller movie scores is part of my problem with _Arcana_. Hollywood embraced this style of music for ominous or thriller scenes. Now it's hard for me to listen to this style without thinking a TV is on somewhere showing old film noir. That is not necessarily the fault of the music, just an unfortunate cultural thing. That wouldn't be a problem except it has caused me to feel the percussion is out of place.

@some guy. You are probably right about the analysis. It's just that sometimes analysis has helped me in the past "get" something I wasn't quite picking up on. I think maybe in this case it can hinder though. I will stop trying so hard to understand and just let it happen.


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## Chris

I have just experienced _Ionisation_ on Youtube.






First time I've seen a piano played with the forearm! I'll leave the rest of you to enjoy Varese. I'm going back to Beethoven


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## emiellucifuge

Would anyone like me to translate the text at the beginning of that video?


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## Guest

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> _Poème électronique_ (1958), belongs to the weird electronic fart, crappy junk category.


Farts, junk, crappy and weird. What elevation of conversation we are capable of, to be sure. And directed at such a perfect little jewel of a piece, too, a piece that got a lot of people I know into classical music in the first place, a piece that is widely admired, so much so that it got Varèse called "the father of electronic music," which he certainly was not, by any means. But such was the glamour of _Poème électronique_.

The fart remark is a bit like calling _Orlando_ a screech fest, with the caterwauling relieved only by the squalling. It belongs to the ridiculous, thousand notes for every syllable category.:devil:

And, of course, it is nothing of the sort....


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## elgar's ghost

I like most of his stuff but I still think it's a pity that he imposed a year zero on his works as surely some of the earlier output which he destroyed/suppressed may well have been worth listening to. It would have been fascinating to have obtained a better idea of his stylistic evolution.


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## Weston

emiellucifuge said:


> Would anyone like me to translate the text at the beginning of that video?


If it is easy for you and you have time, that would be interesting. I can almost get the gist of it, but it goes by too fast.


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## emiellucifuge

The Electronic Poem

Philips has developed an automatic device, which heralds a new art with unbounded possibilities, namely the electronic melange of light, colour, image, word and music throughout space.
'The Electronic Poem', created by Le Corbusier, his colleague Xenakis and the musician Edgard Varese shows how the growing mechanisation of civilisation strives towards a future harmony.
The exhibition consists of the following parts:
Creation
Spirit and Matter
From darkness to daybreak
Gods formed by man
So time shapes civilisation
Harmony
To the whole of humanity


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## clavichorder

*Edgar Varese*

I heard his work, Ameriques live at the symphony last Saturday, I've never heard anything more wild. A lot of Rite of Spring allusions are apparent(even some direct quotes), and the concert was even programmed with the Rite of Spring first half/Varese second half(+American in Paris), but it repeats its self with kind of an aimless architecture and seems to rely almost solely on orchestration. That being said, I really enjoyed myself at the concert. How does Ameriques hold up for you in recording? Part of the fun was that the ending chord was so loud(!!!) and there was that strange percussion instrument that sounded like a dried up siren.

Varese was indeed a force to be reckoned with.


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## Manxfeeder

Thanks for the review. I have Chailly's recording, which it lists as the "original version," which employs 27 woodwind and 29 brass, with a steamboat whistle, cyclone whistle, and crow call. I don't know if that's what you heard. But the recording stands up well, although it's probably nothing like hearing it in person. 

After hearing the Carnegie Hall version of Antheil's Ballet Mecanique, I appreciate all the more the skill which Varese had in manipulating sounds. Antheil was wild, but Varese is well-planned.


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## starthrower

I get in the mood for Varese only once in a while. When the time is right, I love Ameriques. Other times I can't stand it. I have the Boulez disc on Sony, and the Chailly set.


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## Sid James

There was an earlier thread on him HERE.

I like all his works & you're quite fortunate to hear his music live, it's difficult to put on because of the large orchestras he uses (he was esp. fond of using an army of percussionists). This year, his _Ionisation_ was played in Western Australia, but none other of his music was/is being performed in this country this year as far as I know. Indeed, if people here walk out through Mahler 9 they probably wouldn't last 2 seconds through Varese.

I used to listen to him quite a bit before but I rarely do now, I've gone over to more melodic music. He is definitely very intense and heavy on percussion and winds, he only uses the strings as a highlight (which was the trend in the c20th, but he kind of took it to it's ultimate extreme).

He'll never be a household name or as popular as say Stravinsky, he's more of a composer's composer, mainly known and studied by musicians, composers, etc. But I like him because he was one of the guys that got me heavily into post-1945 music, another one was Messiaen...


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## elgar's ghost

A pity he (or fate) was so thorough in destroying virtually all his pre-Amerique works, though. It would have been nice if one or two others apart than the single Verlaine song could have escaped the flames just so I could get a better understanding of his earlier development as a composer. I know this is an oversimplification but for me listening to Varese's slim output is like listening to the Beatles' more ambitious stuff like Tomorrow Never Knows, A Day In The Life and Revolution 9 without having had the chance to listen to She Loves You, I Feel Fine or Help first.


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## Weston

Having absorbed and "gotten" _Arcana_, but still not all that enthusiastic about the piece, what other Varese piece should the curious listener try next?


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## Manxfeeder

Weston said:


> Having absorbed and "gotten" _Arcana_, but still not all that enthusiastic about the piece, what other Varese piece should the curious listener try next?


I don't know if it will appeal to you, but it seems like Ionisation is what everyone remembers him for. It may sound like chaos, but it actually has a development section in the middle.


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## Sid James

elgars ghost said:


> A pity he (or fate) was so thorough in destroying virtually all his pre-Amerique works, though...I know this is an oversimplification but for me listening to Varese's slim output is like listening to the Beatles' more ambitious stuff like Tomorrow Never Knows, A Day In The Life and Revolution 9 without having had the chance to listen to She Loves You, I Feel Fine or Help first.


I like that analogy, it's also something like if only one or two of Beethoven's early period works would have survived. We'd still have plenty to call him a great composer, a genius, but we'd still be all the poorer for losing those works. As for many earlier composers like Monteverdi, the situation is exactly like this or worse, most of his music is now lost, although discoveries do happen from time to time.



Weston said:


> Having absorbed and "gotten" _Arcana_, but still not all that enthusiastic about the piece, what other Varese piece should the curious listener try next?


Well, there's not a lot that has survived by him, but I know of an arrangement for several pianos (I think it's 2 or maybe 4) of _Ameriques_ (there are two versions, the original one for huge orchestra of like 150, the other one a scaled back one done on the behest of Leopold Stokowski, a conductor who championed new music in the USA in the pre-1945 period). The piano version might be the go if you like piano music or just smaller scale things. Just putting it out there, but I only know about it, I haven't heard it...


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## jalex

On a smaller scale:

Varese's Density 21.5 is in my opinion the best flute piece written since the Baroque period






His Octandres are cool little pieces


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## starthrower

Manxfeeder said:


> I don't know if it will appeal to you, but it seems like Ionisation is what everyone remembers him for. It may sound like chaos, but it actually has a development section in the middle.


Chaos? Never! Here's a nice little production I found at YouTube.


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## Manxfeeder

starthrower said:


> Chaos? Never! Here's a nice little production I found at YouTube.


Yeah, it has a definite structure.

I'm surprised nobody has YouTubed Frank Zappa's version.


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## starthrower

I don't recall Zappa ever performing Ionization? Apparently he was working on some sort of Varese inspired album at the time of his death. His best known percussion piece is The Black Page. Unlike Ionization, it features a concrete melody. Here's the premiere recording from Dec. '76.


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## Manxfeeder

starthrower said:


> I don't recall Zappa ever performing Ionization?


Yeah, he did. It's on the Freak Out LP, titled In Memoriam Edgard Varese, a rock version of Ionisation.

I heard Zappa's version first, so I'm probably the only person who thought, when finally I heard the real thing, "Wow, they're playing Zappa."


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## starthrower

I'll have to give that a listen, thanks! I haven't really spent a lot of time with the Freak Out album over the years.


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## bumtz

Manxfeeder said:


> Yeah, he did. It's on the Freak Out LP, titled In Memoriam Edgard Varese, a rock version of Ionisation.
> 
> I heard Zappa's version first, so I'm probably the only person who thought, when finally I heard the real thing, "Wow, they're playing Zappa."


Not on Freak Out!
Zappa indeed was working with Ensemble Modern on a Varese album tentatively titled "Rage and Fury" right before his death.


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## Manxfeeder

bumtz said:


> Not on Freak Out!


It's part 2 of Help, I'm a Rock.

http://wiki.killuglyradio.com/wiki/Freak_Out!


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## bumtz

Manxfeeder said:


> It's part 2 of Help, I'm a Rock.
> 
> http://wiki.killuglyradio.com/wiki/Freak_Out!


I stand corrected. And I consider myself an FZ expert - shame on me! To be fair, I have a CD version where it is not labeled as such. And this is merely a 40-second fragment that at best can be considered an allusion to "Ionisation".


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## Manxfeeder

bumtz said:


> To be fair, I have a CD version where it is not labeled as such. And this is merely a 40-second fragment that at best can be considered an allusion to "Ionisation".


Yeah, I suppose it's better labeled a rock allusion. It's still notable that he can take a piece like Ionisation and Zappa-ize it.


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## starthrower

Anybody seen this nifty 2-CD edition? I just grabbed one for .99 cents!


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## starthrower

Varese documentary


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## Manxfeeder

starthrower said:


> Varese documentary


Thanks for the video!


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## starthrower

It's too bad Zappa didn't make it to New York before Varese died.


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## violadude

Edgar Varese-

Pieces I have by Varese

Ionisation
Ameriques
Density 21.5
Offrandes
Arcana
Octandre
Integrales

For a guy with such a small output, what he did write sure packs a punch! He reminds me of Berg in this aspect. Such a revolutionary in terms of making people think differently about music. I love the soundworlds he builds in his pieces. They are very fresh and unique. I think he had a gift for build up too. When you listen to his music, it might sound somewhat random, but you can definitely hear a sense of movement and urgency. Pushing the music somewhere, driving it forward. His music sounds very purposeful to me, while having a weird/cool mechanical/industrial sound at the same time. He was also one of the main pioneers in electronic music and I regret not owning poem electronique and deserts, Someday though


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## starthrower

Do you have the Boulez CD on Sony? Boulez recorded Deserts on another Sony album combined with Carter's A Symphony Of Three Orchestras, but he didn't use Varese's tapes. I recommend getting the Chailly set. The domestic issue is out of print, but there's an import version that's available much cheaper. Check out the documentary I posted above. It's really good.


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## violadude

starthrower said:


> Do you have the Boulez CD on Sony? Boulez recorded Deserts on another Sony album combined with Carter's A Symphony Of Three Orchestras, but he didn't use Varese's tapes. I recommend getting the Chailly set. The domestic issue is out of print, but there's an import version that's available much cheaper. Check out the documentary I posted above. It's really good.


Yes, that is the CD I have. Thanks for the recommendation, I'll check that out.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Ah I found it the Varese guest book..... was begining to think there was not one here!


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## Weston

The young Varèse looks like Bryan Ferry to me.









Quite an intense fellow. I think I am ready to start collecting his (Varèse's) music.


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## hreichgott

The first 5 seconds of something by Varese seem random, then you realize it's a highly structured and well proportioned environment. Oddly I can't think of anyone to compare him to except Beethoven. What Beethoven does with seemingly boring little tidbits of sound, Varese does with seemingly random little tidbits of sound. I'm really enjoying Varese at the moment.


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## Weston

Today Amériques came on the iPod while I was at work. I found it a little more to my taste than Arcana. The weird thing is, it sounds more exotic to me that American, as if it's trying to be some ancient Sumerian music or something out of 19th century Russian orientalism. I notice this especially about 2/3 (18 minutes or so) into it. Interesting work. 

Unfortunately my Naxos version has a silly inappropriately comical sounding siren. I've just listened to the Riccardo Chailly / Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra version on YouTube and the siren is much nicer. Who knew a sirenist could make such a difference? So I may be looking for more upscale versions of this work.


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## Weston

Later that same year --

Today the art song "Un grand sommeil noir" came on my iPod. I found it quite beautiful and I never thought I'd say that about either Varese or art song.


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## Guest




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## rsikora

Here's a question that I've been trying to answer for years: This concerns the final chord of varese's ameriques (original version), what I consider to be the most intense chord in the history of music. What is that chord? How did he come up with this? What was he thinking? Best version of this was done by the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra conducted by Riccardo Chailly


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## Xenakiboy

Every piece by Varese is excellent and always reminds me of something influenced by him. 
He's not my favorite composer but I've gotten many hours of enjoyment from his work! :tiphat:


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

He is my favourite composer, who would have guessed?


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## Klassic

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> He is my favourite composer, who would have guessed?


This says much about you my friend, as Varese is a unique and powerful composer. It takes a certain kind of person to pause and pay attention to this music, and it shows intelligence that one has appreciation for it.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Klassic said:


> This says much about you my friend, as Varese is a unique and powerful composer. It takes a certain kind of person to pause and pay attention to this music, and it shows intelligence that one has appreciation for it.


Many thanks Klassic and what a fine fellow you are, all power to ya


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## Pugg

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> He is my favourite composer, who would have guessed?


U are kidding right?


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## Klassic

Pugg said:


> U are kidding right?


Pugg, I know you love Varese as well. Strange thing about Varese is that traditionalists are afraid to confess their love for him. I suspect that Varese is the secret passion of many fundamentalists.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Pugg said:


> U are kidding right?


kidding in name not always in nature but there is not much natural about me


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## Klassic

Varese's music is like the dirty notty sex that Mormons love, but are not allowed to have. Therefore they nurse it in secret.


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## Pugg

[



EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> kidding in name not always in nature but there is not much natural about me


You must be on something spiritual both.....


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## millionrainbows

Varese was in Paris, and knew STRAVINSKY…I hear a connection, in some of the oboe melodies, similar to Rite of Spring…snake music, exotic, ancient tribes…modern and ancient at the same time. There was an interest by artists in "primitive" culture and art…Picasso's African masks. There, in Arcana: "There is a star which is bigger than all the rest…" reminds me of the Mayans and Aztecs and their interest in the heavens and time, calendars…Do you see this?


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## millionrainbows

Get this one:


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## millionrainbows

starthrower said:


> Do you have the Boulez CD on Sony? Boulez recorded Deserts on another Sony album combined with Carter's A Symphony Of Three Orchestras, but he didn't use Varese's tapes. I recommend getting the Chailly set. The domestic issue is out of print, but there's an import version that's available much cheaper. Check out the documentary I posted above. It's really good.


Yes, it's too bad that the Boulez version doesn't have the tape interpolation. But there is always digital editing...

This is the one I really like:









It's a 2-CD, originally on Columbia Masterworks, so the sound is well-recorded vintage analog. It has all the good stuff.


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## fluteman

Victor Redseal said:


>


I played Density 21.5 in my senior recital, along with Boismortier, Enesco and Dutilleux. Love it. Love Ameriques, too. It's a great tragedy that he destroyed most of his compositions. It would be great to see the evolution of his thinking.


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## millionrainbows

Thank you Victor Redseal, I really enjoyed the flute video. I love the expressions on her face. It really humanizes the piece for me. Funny, I've never seen anyone play it before. Thank you, too, fluteman.


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## rsikora

And Varese wrote a big piece called Equatorial which has holy texts taken from Popol Vuh (Mayans)


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## millionrainbows

rsikora said:


> And Varese wrote a big piece called Equatorial which has holy texts taken from Popol Vuh (Mayans)


Yes, it's an interesting thread to follow, Varese's interest in "primitive" cultures and ritualistic evocations, which he shared with Stravinsky (Rite of Spring) and Picasso (African masks). Andre Jolivet continued this thread in his evocative, ritualistic, mysterious music. I surmise that this all had to do with tapping into the ancient, dark areas of the human psyche. Freud's idea of the unconscious was beginning to attract interest.

That's what I like most about Varese: you feel like these ancient, powerful forces are being unleashed. Lots of fear, tension, and spectacular events taking place.


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## Vaneyes

'How Manhattan made the music of *Varese*'

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2...how-manhattan-made-the-music-of-edgard-varese

Recent *Varese *Barbican concert reviewed.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2...ion-varese-barbican-london-review-bbcso-oramo


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## ahinton

Vaneyes said:


> 'How Manhattan made the music of *Varese*'
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/music/2...how-manhattan-made-the-music-of-edgard-varese


I have just posted a response to this, as follows:

"The New World was, he figured, no place for the heart-tugging romanticism of tone poems marinated in the harmonic juices of Richard Strauss"...
Yes, Varèse knew and received some encouragement from Strauss (and Busoni, too) but, since one of the few of his early works - _Bourgogne_ - whose score he retained rather than depositing it in that warehouse where a fire would eventually destroy most of his "pre-American" works was likewise destroyed (by Varèse himself) not long before his death, how sure can we be that this description served those works? There was apparently a riot at its première not unlike that at some earlyish Schönberg performances and the one that was famously soon to greet _Le Sacre du Printemps_, so I'm not so sure that "heart-tugging romanticism" was the order of the day and, in any event, to the extent that he might have been influenced by Strauss in those days, it would more likely have been the Strauss of _Salome_ and _Elektra_ than of his earlier symphonic poems. That we have only one Varèse work from his European years must sadly but inevitably skew our impression of him as a whole.

Also, tangential though it may be, it struck me as a somewhat oddly missed opportunity when the author mentioned Hart Crane and Brooklyn Bridge as well as Elliott Carter without drawing them together with a passing reference to the latter's _A Symphony of Three Orchestras_...


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## Vaneyes

My thoughts re "How Manhattan made the music of Varese". Apart from a few Ameriques "noises", Manhattan influence is overblown. As is the literature/music parallel.

Varese made some good moves 1915 onward--escaping Paris to find a truer voice, storing composing past in a warehouse, and many years later destroying the only reminder.


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## christomacin




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## Pugg

christomacin said:


>


 Blaspheme in the holy auditorium .


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Pugg said:


> Blaspheme in the holy auditorium .


How sweet it is


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## Guest

Which sweetness would you suggest dipping into first Eddie?


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## starthrower

16 year old Frank Zappa's letter to Edgard Varese.
http://wiki.killuglyradio.com/wiki/Zappa's_letter_to_Varèse

I enjoyed reading this charming and informed letter from one future music legend to a giant of the 20th century avant garde.


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## Room2201974

starthrower said:


> 16 year old Frank Zappa's letter to Edgard Varese.
> http://wiki.killuglyradio.com/wiki/Zappa's_letter_to_Varèse
> 
> I enjoyed reading this charming and informed letter from one future music legend to a giant of the 20th century avant garde.


Thanks *starthrower*!


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2...how-manhattan-made-the-music-of-edgard-varese
Sounds and the city: how Manhattan made the music of Edgard Varèse
With sirens and whistles, Varèse brought the noises of 1920s New York READERS TO THE STREETS




The three figures in the late-night diner of Edward Hopper's quintessential New York painting _Nighthawks_ tell us about the loneliness of life in the big city, while the criss-cross lines of Piet Mondrian's _Broadway Boogie Woogie_ seem to dance to its syncopated rhythms. Whether it's Harold Lloyd dangling from a skyscraper, or Robert De Niro prowling the streets in his taxi cab, New York appears to exists in our collective imagination as a series of frozen images and screen grabs.


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