# Furtwangler Ring from La Scala



## Notung (Jun 12, 2013)

Hey everyone.

Could anyone tell me if there are any cuts in that recording?

It's between buying that one or the Krauss bayreuth ring, so I would appreciate your thoughts on the artistic merits of each.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Yes, Walkure and Siegfried have cuts.
I recommend the Krauss. It's better recorded, complete and better sung imo.
The Rome Furtwangler is complete and recorded better than the Scala.

Check out the new anniversary issue of the Krauss on Opera D'Oro.
It sounds good, includes the librettos and another booklet for under 40 dollars.


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## Pip (Aug 16, 2013)

The Milan Ring is great for Furtwängler devotees and for the chance to hear Flagstad post war (still wonderful)
The drawbacks are the old standard performing cuts and one or two poor singers in important roles.
Better to look at Furtwängler's Rome Ring in 1953.

The Krauss from Bayreuth is, from first to last, great. The sound is really good - no weak links.


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## Notung (Jun 12, 2013)

Itullian said:


> Yes, Walkure and Siegfried have cuts.
> I recommend the Krauss. It's better recorded, complete and better sung imo.
> The Rome Furtwangler is complete and recorded better than the Scala.
> 
> ...


Is the opera d'oro sound as good as Orfeo? I heard that windgassen flumped the forging scene, are there any other screw-ups in the recording?


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

Notung said:


> Is the opera d'oro sound as good as Orfeo? I heard that windgassen flumped the forging scene, are there any other screw-ups in the recording?


I haven't heard the Orfeo, but I've read criticisms about it. I own the Opera d'oro, and after one listening I am impressed with it.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Notung said:


> Is the opera d'oro sound as good as Orfeo? I heard that windgassen flumped the forging scene, are there any other screw-ups in the recording?


The Opera D'Oro sound is excellent. A friend had both that and the Orfeo and sold the Orfeo and bought the anniversary Opera D'Oro.

All live recordings have some "screw ups".
They're part of being human.
The Krauss ring is fantastic. It's a classic.
For 40 dollars its a steal.


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## Notung (Jun 12, 2013)

Krauss vs. Keilberth? 


(I admit I'm a little indecisive)


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

Notung said:


> Krauss vs. Keilberth?
> 
> (I admit I'm a little indecisive)


Both. Not a horse race. I like Krauss most of the time for most things, including the restoration of Wagner's tempo markings and the singers, who sounded better in this 1953 recording than they would later. But I also like Keilberth's, which benefits from a better recording, technically, and the singers are also great. To answer the question, Krauss has the edge. But not a set for a newbie-newbie Wagnerian. A clear, technically proficient version is needed to become acquainted with the music before embarking on historical excursions. Solti is probably the best recommendation for a new listener. If you're past that stage, get Krauss. Or do like I did - just get both.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Notung said:


> Krauss vs. Keilberth?


I wouldn't be without either, but it's Krauss for me. I have it as a Pristine Classics "Ambient Stereo" remaster - expensive, but it sounds great.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Notung said:


> Krauss vs. Keilberth?
> 
> (I admit I'm a little indecisive)


Don't worry about being indecisive. We all are. And after all it's your money.
Plus, we all love to talk Wagner anyway.

We're talking 40 dollars as compared to 150 here. Big difference.

The Keilberth's sound is fantastic. Excellent stereo and the performances of these two Rings is very close.
Ask yourself, is the stereo sound worth the extra money?
Make your decision based on that.

They're both great Rings.


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## Notung (Jun 12, 2013)

Thanks everyone!

I would like both, but the Keilberth is STEEP!!! Maybe I'll be the Krauss now and the Keilberth later on.


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## Pip (Aug 16, 2013)

Notung said:


> Krauss vs. Keilberth?
> 
> (I admit I'm a little indecisive)


Keilberth is the best Bayreuth cycle for a layman, because of the professionally recorded stereo sound.
The cast is the same as Kraus - Windgassen is much better for Keilberth than for Krauss because in 1953, he was singing the two Siegfrieds for the first time at Bayreuth and he was a little unsure at times, by 1955 with Keilberth
he was rock solid - everyone sings well - like Revenant I have both ( actually I have every Ring cycle from Bayreuth from 1951 to the present).
If I was forced to live with just one from Wieland Wagner's greatest period,as Ring producer, 1951 - 1958,
I would have the Testament issue from 1955, because of the sound. To hear those great singers in Decca's
great recorded stereo, is just too much to pass up on.
I love Krauss, I love the Knappertsbusch 1956 - 1958 - Karajan is great in 1951 (only 2 of the 4 operas and Act 3 of Walküre). 
Keilberth stands above them all.

By the time Wieland did his next production in 1965, most of the singers had changed, but he found Karl Böhm who was the natural successor to Keilberth.
Keilberth left Bayreuth after the 1956 season taking over as MD at the Bavarian State Opera in Munich, where
he remained until his death in 1968. 60 years old.

I digress again - the Krauss is superb - you will not be disappointed, but if you can afford the extra, then go for the Keilberth.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Another great option is the newly remastered Bohm Ring.
It sounds better than ever and is in excellent stereo sound.
And its very inexpensive.


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## Notung (Jun 12, 2013)

Itullian said:


> Another great option is the newly remastered Bohm Ring.
> It sounds better than ever and is in excellent stereo sound.
> And its very inexpensive.


I was considering that one, but I already have the Solti which has a lot of the same casting. One would argue that the pre-1960 Bayreuth Rings also shared casting with the Solti, but I notice that there is a huge difference in the Krauss/Keilberth Siegmunds (Solti's King to the Krauss/Keilberth Vinay) and Brunnhildes (Solti's Nilsson to Varnay, who performed in every 1950s Bayreuth Ring). The shared casting (Hotter, Neidlinger, Windgassen) was fresher in the 1950s. That's why I wanted to go beyond the Solti recording in the first place. So the differences (and better form of the shared singers) made me consider Bayreuth Rings from before 1960, since the singers of the Solti recording were not in top form at the time of that recording and the Bohm Ring. Further, I found that there was no need to get a re-run of, say, Nilsson's Brunnhilde when just a couple years before she did an awesome Brunnhilde on a recording that I already own. I doubt her interpretation "deepened" for the Bohm Ring.

I don't know if I am making much sense, but maybe you get what I mean?

Excuse my ignorance, but the Bohm Ring seems to be a live rehash of the Solti, except without the good Wotan (I have Adam with Janowski and find him a little bland, don't really care to hear him again ).

If I am underestimating the Bohm recording, please, call me out. That was just my impression...


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Notung said:


> I was considering that one, but I already have the Solti which has a lot of the same casting. One would argue that the pre-1960 Bayreuth Rings also shared casting with the Solti, but I notice that there is a huge difference in the Krauss/Keilberth Siegmunds (Solti's King to the Krauss/Keilberth Vinay) and Brunnhildes (Solti's Nilsson to Varnay, who performed in every 1950s Bayreuth Ring). The shared casting (Hotter, Neidlinger, Windgassen) was fresher in the 1950s. That's why I wanted to go beyond the Solti recording in the first place. So the differences (and better form of the shared singers) made me consider Bayreuth Rings from before 1960, since the singers of the Solti recording were not in top form at the time of that recording and the Bohm Ring. Further, I found that there was no need to get a re-run of, say, Nilsson's Brunnhilde when just a couple years before she did an awesome Brunnhilde on a recording that I already own. I doubt her interpretation "deepened" for the Bohm Ring.
> 
> I don't know if I am making much sense, but maybe you get what I mean?
> 
> ...


Yes, you are correct in that regard. I didn't know you already had the Solti Ring.

I was just going on a live Bayreuth Ring.
Hotter beats Adam hands down.
I was thinking if you wanted a live from Bayreuth Ring that the Bohm was in excellent stereo sound.
The Keilberth 55 has the better cast imo too.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

And of course, there's always Knappertsbusch '56. 
Great cast and excellent mono sound.


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## Pip (Aug 16, 2013)

Notung said:


> Excuse my ignorance, but the Bohm Ring seems to be a live rehash of the Solti, except without the good Wotan (I have Adam with Janowski and find him a little bland, don't really care to hear him again ).
> 
> If I am underestimating the Bohm recording, please, call me out. That was just my impression...


Calling Karl Böhm's Ring a rehash of the Solti is wrong. The two conductors could not be further apart in every aspect of music making. The point is that from 1953 to 1967 - the timespan of the Krauss Ring to the Böhm Ring at Bayreuth - the choice of great wagner singers was very limited. The three toughest roles - Wotan , Brünnhilde and Siegfried - have always been difficult to cast - Hotter was still singing Wotan(just) in 1967 - and his main Bayreuth replacement Theo Adam had been groomed by Wieland to take on the roles. (I would ask you to listen to a sample of Adam singing with Böhm) .He can be a little careful in the recording studio - but he was an entirely different singer caught live. The whole Janowski cycle is poor considering the material he had at his disposal. His fault, not the singers. He is now trying to do another cycle.
Theo Adam with Karl Böhm is was of the joys of the set. Nilsson is also much more live than she ever was in the studio.
Windgassen was a phenomenon - he continued to sound fresh, right up to his death in 1974.
If we are to come to Wieland's second Ring production, then the Böhm set is a Must - I have had it in my collection since it was first issued on LP. The new remastering is outstanding. The price is a joke.
This is a top recommendation. Don't worry about similarities with Solti. This will sweep you off your feet.


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## Notung (Jun 12, 2013)

Pip said:


> Calling Karl Böhm's Ring a rehash of the Solti is wrong. The two conductors could not be further apart in every aspect of music making. The point is that from 1953 to 1967 - the timespan of the Krauss Ring to the Böhm Ring at Bayreuth - the choice of great wagner singers was very limited. The three toughest roles - Wotan , Brünnhilde and Siegfried - have always been difficult to cast - Hotter was still singing Wotan(just) in 1967 - and his main Bayreuth replacement Theo Adam had been groomed by Wieland to take on the roles. (I would ask you to listen to a sample of Adam singing with Böhm) .He can be a little careful in the recording studio - but he was an entirely different singer caught live. The whole Janowski cycle is poor considering the material he had at his disposal. His fault, not the singers. He is now trying to do another cycle.
> Theo Adam with Karl Böhm is was of the joys of the set. Nilsson is also much more live than she ever was in the studio.
> Windgassen was a phenomenon - he continued to sound fresh, right up to his death in 1974.
> If we are to come to Wieland's second Ring production, then the Böhm set is a Must - I have had it in my collection since it was first issued on LP. The new remastering is outstanding. The price is a joke.
> This is a top recommendation. Don't worry about similarities with Solti. This will sweep you off your feet.


Good point...but is the Bohm better than Krauss or Keilberth? I may sound like a hounding "vecchio infatuato", but I need to be sure my money is well spent.

Better spending $200 and being happy with the purchase than spending $50 and not being satisfied.


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## Pip (Aug 16, 2013)

Notung said:


> Good point...but is the Bohm better than Krauss or Keilberth? I may sound like a hounding "vecchio infatuato", but I need to be sure my money is well spent.
> 
> Better spending $200 and being happy with the purchase than spending $50 and not being satisfied.


Unfortunately, unlike Sauron, there is no "One Ring to Rule them All". it's all a very subjective area.

Advantages - Böhm great sound (Philips) - great cast - great price. Disadvantages - as a live recording - none really.
Advantages - Keilberth - Great sound (Decca) - great cast, mainly different except for Windgassen. price - a little high.
Advantages - Krauss - a 1953 Radio broadcast (still good sound, but not like the others). Great cast - price - good.

Now the subjective part - Who do you prefer - Böhm, Keilberth or Krauss. Böhm and Keiberth are somewhat similar in that they prefer faster tempi. Krauss is a little more moderate. 
The singing is great in all three. Böhm and Keilberth had the advantage of having their performances edited using, where possible, second performances and dress rehearsals, so the performances are virtually mistake free.
Krauss conducted the second Ring cycle that year(1953) so all of the singers are well "Bedded in" having sung the first cycle with Keilberth. Only Varnay did not sing in the first cycle that year. (Mödl).
So the Krauss is an absolute (warts and all) live performance, with no retakes.

Knowing all three cycles as well as I do, I can say that all are great and whichever you choose, you will not be disappointed.
The mono broadcast sound of the Krauss will require a slight re-adjustment if you are used to the Solti experience.
I would leave the Krauss out for now and choose one of the stereo sets.
There is no more exciting Act 1 of Walküre on disc as the Böhm. Rysanek's scream as Siegmund pulls the sword out of the tree has to be heard to be believed. It is a pure visceral, sexual excitement coupled with an astounding musical climax.

Enough - I love 'em both, the Krauss slightly less so - I would slip Kempe's 1960 Ring in instead.


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## Notung (Jun 12, 2013)

So I'll whittle it down to Bohm vs. Keilberth. I'll listen to both and see which one is best for me. I'll get the Krauss eventually.

Thanks for your help and patience!:tiphat:


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

What did you get?


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

What did you get?


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## Romantiker (Feb 23, 2014)

If anyone is interested there are free downloads of the Furtwaengler Rheingold, Walkuere, and Siegfried as well as the Keilberth Goetterdaemmerung at Liber Liber http://www.liberliber.it/musica/w/wagner/index.php


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Pip said:


> Calling Karl Böhm's Ring a rehash of the Solti is wrong. The two conductors could not be further apart in every aspect of music making. The point is that from 1953 to 1967 - the timespan of the Krauss Ring to the Böhm Ring at Bayreuth - the choice of great wagner singers was very limited. The three toughest roles - Wotan , Brünnhilde and Siegfried - have always been difficult to cast - Hotter was still singing Wotan(just) in 1967 - and his main Bayreuth replacement Theo Adam had been groomed by Wieland to take on the roles. (I would ask you to listen to a sample of Adam singing with Böhm) .He can be a little careful in the recording studio - but he was an entirely different singer caught live. The whole Janowski cycle is poor considering the material he had at his disposal. His fault, not the singers. He is now trying to do another cycle.
> Theo Adam with Karl Böhm is was of the joys of the set. Nilsson is also much more live than she ever was in the studio.
> Windgassen was a phenomenon - he continued to sound fresh, right up to his death in 1974.
> If we are to come to Wieland's second Ring production, then the Böhm set is a Must - I have had it in my collection since it was first issued on LP. The new remastering is outstanding. The price is a joke.
> This is a top recommendation. Don't worry about similarities with Solti. This will sweep you off your feet.


I have the Bohm Ring in its new remastering, the price is good.
I find Bohm's conducting - while exciting in places - very relentless. Not much light and shade.
The cast is good on the whole, but the performance makes the work difficult to live.
Why I much prefer Karajan's Ring despite the sometimes lightweight casting. The orchestral playing is so expressive that it brings out all the subtleties of the score. With Bohm you don't hear the orchestra so clearly despite the legendary Bayreuth acoustic. Probably poor microphone placing?
And wonder of wonders - I prefer Dernesch to Nilsson as Brunnhilde in Siegfried Act 3.
Windgassen, though, is phenomenal live! But the role may have taken a toll as he died from a heart attack aged only 60.


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