# How about operetta?



## larifari (Sep 5, 2011)

I am new on this forum. I tried to read as many threads/posts as I could in a short time.

I found that we are totally overloaded with snobs, who declare music with human voice a joke. Entertainment, but not art form, they say. They are too 'educated' to realize that NO musical instrument, no matter how expertly played measures up to the beauty of a well-trained, God-given human singing voice, male or female. 

Opera gets a little bit of reprieve and recognition, but I have a feeling that OPERETTA would be demeaned, besmirched and degraded by these self-same cultural supremacists that seem to dominate this forum. Yet, while I can whistle, doodle and/or sing beautiful melodies from my favorite operettas, they would be hard pressed to reproduce three subsequent notes from their instrumental favorites. 

I have an eclectic taste in classical music. I love the works of Mozart, be they opera (have seen all of them) or instrumental. Beethoven, ditto. Being a Hungarian-born citizen, give me Liszt, Bartok, Kodaly, Ligeti and Erkel (most of you probably don't even know that Placido Domingo treasures singing Erkel's operas) anytime.

Also, being Hungarian-born, it pains me that NOBODY here appreciates operetta.

Safe bet, from what I've seen here, that nobody knows (or too snobbish to admit) about Johann Strauss, Franz Lehar, Emerich Kalman or Jeno Huszka. Or Offenbach or Gilbert and Sullivan.

Is operetta not classical enough? Or is it just that nobody knows or wants to know about operetta?

If the latter is the case, pity.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Welcome to the forum,* larifari!*

I'm actually a bit of an operetta buff myself. Not an "expert" in the field, but I like operetta a lot. In contrast to my mother, who hates it, she's into the more heavy stuff (opera, esp. of the Italian variety).

I like the Viennese guys, I don't know Jeno Huszka but I had a cd including some of Paul Abraham's hits & they were very memorable, this was the short-lived genre of jazz operetta. Another one similar to that was _The White Horse Inn_, a sweet concoction compiled by Ralph Benatzky and Robert Stolz. It's pure shmaltz, syrupy and pastiche, but I love it!!! I'm not that familiar with guys like Offenbach or G & S, but I do have one zarzuela (Spanish operetta) by a guy called Barbieri titled _El barberillo de Lavapiés_.

Anyway, since you've given me the opportunity, HERE is the abovementioned Paul Abraham conducting his own music from the operetta _Die Blume von Hawaii_. Some vocalising from a barbershop quartet here, pretty good use of a smallish orchestra & some solos, eg. from the pianist (added to that, some interesting photos of pre-war Berlin, before it was blown to smithereens). & HERE is a more recent rendition of a song from Abraham's _Bal a Savoyban_.

& regarding your accusations of snobbishness, I think that's not generally true of this forum, as far as I know. Granted, there aren't many fans of lighter music here, but that doesn't mean people are "snobs." I've been a member of another forum which could be described as more like that, which I left, and I can tell you that on that forum there is even scant discussion of opera, let alone operetta. Most members there are superglued to instrumental repertoire, esp. the orchestral...


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

larifari said:


> I am new on this forum. I tried to read as many threads/posts as I could in a short time.
> 
> I found that we are totally overloaded with snobs, who declare music with human voice a joke. Entertainment, but not art form, they say. They are too 'educated' to realize that NO musical instrument, no matter how expertly played measures up to the beauty of a well-trained, God-given human singing voice, male or female.
> 
> ...


Just because someone isn't a huge fan of Operetta doesn't mean they are a snob about it.

There's a big difference between: "I've listened to some Operetta and don't much care for it" and "Operetta is a low art form that shouldn't even be taken seriously as music" and I think the general feeling of the people on this forum leans more toward the former than the latter. People around here are much more snobbish about contemporary music. 

Anyway, that being said, I haven't listened to much operetta myself, but I do adore Bernstein's "Candide"


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

larifari said:


> I am new on this forum. I tried to read as many threads/posts as I could in a short time.
> 
> I found that we are totally overloaded with snobs, who declare music with human voice a joke. Entertainment, but not art form, they say. They are too 'educated' to realize that NO musical instrument, no matter how expertly played measures up to the beauty of a well-trained, God-given human singing voice, male or female.
> 
> ...


I sincerely hope this is tongue-in-cheek, larifari, because here we struggle to treat other members nicely.
I haven't seen the snobs you're talking about, and I don't see any lack of respect for vocal classical music either.
Better proof, we have a thrilling Opera subforum which congregates a very large percentage of our members.

We have discussed operettas several times in that subforum.

Just recently (I mean, this weekend) I personally published two reviews of operettas - Auber's Fra Diavolo, and von Suppé's Boccaccio.
We have a thread in which we talked about the best operettas. Here is a list of some works that were considered:

These three were considered to be _hors concours_:
Johan Strauss II - Die Fledermaus
Lehár - Die Lustige Witwe
Offenbach - Orphée aux Enfers

These others were quoted, and listed alphabetically:

Auber - Haydée ou Le Secret 
Auber - Fra Diavolo
Bernstein - Candide
Chabrier - L'Étoile
Gilbert & Sullivan - H.M.S. Pinafore
Gilbert & Sullivan - The Mikado
Gilbert & Sullivan - The Pirates of Penzance 
Hahn - Ciboulette
Herbert - Naughty Marietta
Kálmán - Die Csárdásfürstin
Lehár - Das Land des Lächelns
Lehár - Der Graf von Luxemburg
Lehár - Zigeunerliebe
Messager - Monsieur Beaucaire
Messager - Véronique
Millöcker - Der arme Jonathan
Millöcker - Der Bettelstudent
Millöcker - Gasparone
Millöcker - Gräfin Dubarry
Offenbach - La Belle Hélène
Offenbach - La Grande-Duchesse de Gérolstein
Offenbach - La Vie Parisienne
Offenbach - La Périchole
Offenbach - Barbe-Bleue
Romberg - The Student Prince
Straus, Oscar - Der tapfere Soldat
Strauss (Johann Strauss II) - Der Zigeunerbaron
Strauss (Johann Strauss II) - Simplicius
Suppé - Boccaccio
Suppé - Die schöne Galathee
Suppé - Fatinitza
Suppé - Leichte Kavallerie
Zeller - Der Vogelhändler

There is a thread called Operettas on DVD and Blu-ray, with about 10 reviews.
There is a thread for Gilbert and Sullivan operettas, with a poll.
There is a thread for Offenbach.

So, no, we haven't been ignoring operettas. It's a matter of knowing where to look.

Welcome to the forum.


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## sabrina (Apr 26, 2011)

Welcome to this snobbish, awesome forum! I have no idea what link is between being Hungarian and our loving or not of operetta. You may even come from Mars, loving a music genre is just a matter of taste. Not liking something does not turn you into a snob.
I can't say I am big operetta fan, but I deeply love Offenbach.


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## larifari (Sep 5, 2011)

Almaviva said:


> I sincerely hope this is tongue-in-cheek, larifari, because here we struggle to treat other members nicely.
> I haven't seen the snobs you're talking about, and I don't see any lack of respect for vocal classical music either.
> Better proof, we have a thrilling Opera subforum which congregates a very large percentage of our members.
> 
> ...


If I have spoken hastily, I apologize. The amount of posts is nothing less than overwhelming, and if I did not know where to look, again, I plead ignorance.

I did read one post which outright declared that opera was not an art form and regrettably that set me off on the wrong track. That statement WAS snobbish, and I do not apologize for calling it snobbish.

In the thread which asked for the 25 favorite composers, I saw not a single one that had anything to do with operetta. I even asked about Strauss. Is Johann Strauss unworthy of mention?

Having said that, I think that this forum is excellent.


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## larifari (Sep 5, 2011)

sabrina said:


> Welcome to this snobbish, awesome forum! I have no idea what link is between being Hungarian and our loving or not of operetta. You may even come from Mars, loving a music genre is just a matter of taste. Not liking something does not turn you into a snob.
> I can't say I am big operetta fan, but I deeply love Offenbach.


Sabrina, operetta, as an art form has been declared DEAD. And as one who grew up with the melodies of the greatest composers of operetta, I felt sad, hearing that.

Then, I found "youtube".

Operetta is NOT dead as long as there is a country called Hungary.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Welcome to the forum.

In my few months here I haven't seen much of this anti-opera/operetta "music with human voice a joke" snobbery you speak of. We do, however, now have this awesome and shameless display of reverse snobbery to refer back to, thank you.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

larifari said:


> Sabrina, operetta, as an art form has been declared DEAD...


Don't know about that, it's certainly a thing of the past in terms of not many (or any?) operettas being composed today, however stage musicals (a similar genre, like the little sister of operetta) are still going strong. & of course, things like _The Merry Widow _have been performed all over the world, by amateurs and professionals alike, since it first saw the light of day in about 1905. If I remember correctly, it was one of the first works of it's kind to be fully recorded back in the days of 48 RPM discs, which must have been an enormous undertaking. In those days say before 1945, it was a living art, but now it is kind of a museum piece as you say, connected to nostalgia rather than talking to issues of the present. But I still think it has it's place in the scheme of things today, eg. some labels - like Naxos & cpo - have unearthed long neglected operettas and put them on record for the first time. So as a "new" thing, it's dead, but in terms of it being revived, that is happening as we speak...


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Sid James said:


> Don't know about that, it's certainly a thing of the past in terms of not many (or any?) operettas being composed today, however stage musicals (a similar genre, like the little sister of operetta) are still going strong. & of course, things like _The Merry Widow _have been performed all over the world, by amateurs and professionals alike, since it first saw the light of day in about 1905. If I remember correctly, it was one of the first works of it's kind to be fully recorded back in the days of 48 RPM discs, which must have been an enormous undertaking. In those days say before 1945, it was a living art, but now it is kind of a museum piece as you say, connected to nostalgia rather than talking to issues of the present. But I still think it has it's place in the scheme of things today, eg. some labels - like Naxos & cpo - have unearthed long neglected operettas and put them on record for the first time. So as a "new" thing, it's dead, but in terms of it being revived, that is happening as we speak...


Agreed, and there are new releases of operetta on DVD.


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## sabrina (Apr 26, 2011)

larifari said:


> Sabrina, operetta, as an art form has been declared DEAD. And as one who grew up with the melodies of the greatest composers of operetta, I felt sad, hearing that.
> 
> Then, I found "youtube".
> 
> Operetta is NOT dead as long as there is a country called Hungary.


I have no idea who declared operetta dead. I was unaware, and I recently bought some Offenbach DVDs/CDs. I know operetta is linked to Germany-Austria. 
A few (many) years ago I was in Germany with my choir, and I attended an operetta, but I don't remember which one. It was so sugary sweet, that our whole big group of people left during the brake. After that, I shut myself off, and I tried to avoid operetta. It was a mistake, as not all operetta is necessarily bad.
I know quite well some popular arias from Strauss or Lehar. I am sure I can sing/whistle/yell more than 3 notes, from my favorite operas/operettas to the horror of my family. Only my parrot seems to love my tunes.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Welcome.

Folks who declare operatta or even opera for that matter as "dead"; well, I don' think they are much _alive_ to music anyway.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

larifari said:


> If I have spoken hastily, I apologize. The amount of posts is nothing less than overwhelming, and if I did not know where to look, again, I plead ignorance.
> 
> I did read one post which outright declared that opera was not an art form and regrettably that set me off on the wrong track. That statement WAS snobbish, and I do not apologize for calling it snobbish.
> 
> ...


 Yes, larifari, you did speak hastily. As a moderator, I flirted with the idea of issuing an infraction to your account (when they accumulate they result in a ban) and posting a rebuke of the sort of "buddy, if this is the tone of voice you're planning to employ here since your first few contributions, it is unlikely that your account will be surviving for too long in this so-called snobbish place." Because, see, our Terms of Service call for an infraction when a member offends another member, and you kind of collectively attacked the membership corps of Talk Classical as a whole. Like Couchie said, while accusing us all - people you barely know - of being snobs, your post was actually quite snobbish itself.

But then I though, oh what the heck, the guy is new here, maybe he just started on the wrong foot and he hasn't realized yet that this is a civil place where, unlike in other Internet venues, this kind of tone is not tolerated.

So, my tolerance paid off, because you have immediately changed your tone and apologized. Apologies accepted, just try to not do it again, OK?

Enjoy our forum, I'm glad that you find it excellent. We try hard to make it so, and one of the reasons why it is excellent is because we don't allow ad-homs and personal offenses. Trolls and generally rude people don't survive long here.

So, whenever someone issues an *opinion* that doesn't agree with your own, please don't attack the *person* of the member by saying that the member is a snob or whatever. Please rather estate your disagreement with the members' *opinion* and the reasons for your disagreement, in a civil manner. If anyone is less than civil to you, let the moderation team know about it, but don't fight back. With these simple rules, you'll live long and prosper, here.

Now, *because* we do have a very active Opera forum (it is the third most popular subforum here, with over 24,000 posts), you won't be likely to find too many references to opera, operetta, and opera composers in the other areas, precisely because opera fans tend to gather in the subforum. Since there is no accounting for taste, if a member who posts predominantly in non-operatic subfora finds that opera is not an art form, that person is entitled to his/her opinion, and that's exactly why that person does not frequent the opera forum. You may disagree to your heart's satisfaction, but please do it with civility and respect to your fellow member. But I wouldn't even waste your time if I were you. If you find yourself among people who don't share your interest, the best policy is to leave quietly and go find your group. You're not likely to find in the opera forum people who think that opera is not an art form.

Welcome again, and we're glad to have someone interested in operettas. Post your reviews, make your recommendations, do it all in the right venues, and I'm sure your contributions will be appreciated.

Take care,

Alma.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

As a matter of fact, I'll move this thread to the Opera forum, and will leave a redirect so that when larifari logs in again, he can find it - or she, I don't know if this new member is a he or a she.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

I sometimes wonder whether appreciation for operetta might be linked in with the culture in which one developed one's sense of humour. For example I grew up in France, with English parents, so I appreciate Offenbach and Gilbert and Sullivan but find things like the Merry Widow and Die Fledermaus rather ponderous. Any thoughts?


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## Artemis (Dec 8, 2007)

larifari said:


> In the thread which asked for the Top 25 Composers 25 favorite composers, I saw not a single one that had anything to do with operetta. I even asked about Strauss. Is Johann Strauss unworthy of mention?


I would hazard a guess that it's because the various members who voted in that poll don't much care for Johann Strauss's type of music.

Although I appreciate that there are several threads on this Forum about operatta, I would question whether it is genuinely part of what most classical music fans regard as classical music, rather than occupying some other place in the wider musical market. I have no figures to support it but I would guess that the amount of overlap between people who like mainstream classical music and operetta is very small. I would hazard a further guess that the overlap between those liking opera and operetta is limited to a minority.

Whether I am right or wrong in these surmises, has no bearing on being "snobbish" about operetta. I happen not to be all that keen on operetta although some of it is quite interesting. Generally I far prefer opera, although I'm not keen on much outside that of Purcell, Handel, and Mozart. On the other hand, I like a lot of material in other genres such as classic pop, country, rock, metal, electronica, and several other genres. Thus, I can hardly be described as "snobbish".

But even if I only liked, for example, Beethoven or Mozart or Schubert and very little else, what's snobbish about that? Such people are not "snobs" as you call them, as there is no reason whatsoever to believe that they have deliberately focused their attention on one or two top-rated composers merely to gain some kind of social acceptance or feeling of superiority. They like these composers because their music appeals to them most, and there is nothing wrong with that.

I suggest you might revise your terminology because the kind of comments you make about members here being "snobs" comes over as slightly offensive.


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## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

larifari said:


> Sabrina, operetta, as an art form has been declared DEAD. And as one who grew up with the melodies of the greatest composers of operetta, I felt sad, hearing that.
> 
> Then, I found "youtube".
> 
> Operetta is NOT dead as long as there is a country called Hungary.


Oh, come on! Who is this person who declared opera is dead? Do you believe everything you read on YouTube? You need to grow-up a bit, take things you read on the internet with a large pinch of salt and get on with listening to the music you love. Never mind what other people say - what do THEY matter?


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> I sometimes wonder whether appreciation for operetta might be linked in with the culture in which one developed one's sense of humour. For example I grew up in France, with English parents, so I appreciate Offenbach and Gilbert and Sullivan but find things like the Merry Widow and Die Fledermaus rather ponderous. Any thoughts?


 Hehe, since I'm a cultural mongrel being from a multicultural family, I do like Offenbach, G&S a little bit (not a lot), the Merry Widow, and Die Fledermaus.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Delicious Manager said:


> Oh, come on! Who is this person who declared opera is dead? Do you believe everything you read on YouTube? You need to grow-up a bit, take things you read on the internet with a large pinch of salt and get on with listening to the music you love. Never mind what other people say - what do THEY matter?


 I think he/she said operetta is dead, not opera is dead. In a sense this *is* true since there are still operas being composed, but there aren't many operettas being composed - probably the last one was Candide. Similarly, nobody is composing baroque music - well, except P.D.Q. Bach, hehehe - or Gregorian chant, etc. It doesn't mean the appreciation for these art forms is dead.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Artemis said:


> I would hazard a guess that it's because the various members who voted in that poll don't much care for Johann Strauss's type of music.
> 
> Although I appreciate that there are several threads on this Forum about operatta, I would question whether it is genuinely part of what most classical music fans regard as classical music, rather than occupying some other place in the wider musical market. I have no figures to support it but I would guess that the amount of overlap between people who like mainstream classical music and operetta is very small. I would hazard a further guess that the overlap between those liking opera and operetta is limited to a minority.
> 
> ...


 I do consider operettas as part of the classical music repertoire. Musicals on the other hand cross the line.
I agree that it's a minority of opera fans who like both opera and operetta.
On the other hand, there are *some* operettas that are more widely liked - a percentage of them are high quality ones. But then, if we think more globally, it is also a minority of operas that are liked - some 300 to 500, some would say up to 1,000 or even 2,000 - but one needs to remember that there are about 40,000 operas so it's also a small percentage of them.

About the user's terminology, he's been chastised enough and has apologized, so let's not pile up on him/her.


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## larifari (Sep 5, 2011)

Interesting to talk about 'cross-overs'. 

There is lot of talking in Bizet's Carmen - perhaps as much as in Strauss's 'Die Fiedermaus', yet the former is recognized as an opera, while the latter is considered an operetta. Or how about Franz Lehar's latter day operettas, such as 'Giuditta', 'Der Zarevitch' and 'Paganini' which could qualify as operas?

And speaking of cross-overs: Why operettas written and performed in America called 'MUSICALS'?


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## Chris (Jun 1, 2010)

I take the family to two or three G&S performances a year, always by local amateur companies. I have never attended an opera and probably never will, because:

1. I do not know where proper opera is performed and I am too idle to inquire
2. G&S is in English. An opera would probably not be.
3. Seats at the opera would doubtless cost way beyond the £10-£11 I pay for G&S

The only occasion I have ventured outside G&S is a performance of Die Fledermaus (in English!). Very enjoyable.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

larifari said:


> Interesting to talk about 'cross-overs'.
> 
> There is lot of talking in Bizet's Carmen - perhaps as much as in Strauss's 'Die Fiedermaus', yet the former is recognized as an opera, while the latter is considered an operetta. Or how about Franz Lehar's latter day operettas, such as 'Giuditta', 'Der Zarevitch' and 'Paganini' which could qualify as operas?
> 
> And speaking of cross-overs: Why operettas written and performed in America called 'MUSICALS'?


I think the presence or absence of spoken dialogue, while an important and useful factor, is not all and not enough to classify a work as opera or operetta. We also need to consider subject matter, duration, style, etc. Operettas tend to be light, uplifting, funny, everybody has a good time, nobody dies, it doesn't take too long (there are exceptions to everything, of course - Die Fledermaus for instance is darn long), and like the Italians would say, it all ends in pizza (the French and Austrians might say it all ends in champagne). They definitely don't end in blood like Carmen. I think that in spite of the fact that certain of the multiple Carmen revised versions have spoken dialogue, Carmen is definitely an opera, for all the reasons above described - the heaviness and seriousness of the subject matter, the grandiosity of the scope, the elaborate sequences, the tragic death at the end. So, Carmen may have as much spoken dialogue as Die Fledermaus, but it's not full of waltzes and champagne.

Then, the line is a little blurrier when one considers comic opera in its various national varieties versus operettas - and that's when sometimes the spoken dialogue vs. recitative divide will come in handy. And the other way around also blurs the lines - take Simplicius for example, it does flirt with opera territory.

But I think it is OK to have the lines a little blurry between operetta and comic opera (while I don't think anybody would fail to see the frontier between operetta and opera seria). That's one of the reasons why there are numerous sub-classifications to try and pin down the style and scope of specific works - Singspiel, opéra-comique, opera semi-seria, farce, etc - the list is huge, some 40-60 different subgenres.

Still, we pretty much know that we are in classical music territory as opposed to musicals, because the frontier between operettas and musicals is much more pronounced, I'd say: it's a matter of operatic, non-amplified singing techniques versus popular, amplified singing.

When you say that American musicals are operettas, I disagree. Certainly certain works can be adapted to different singing techniques - hopefully with the composer's input - and be alternatively presented as musicals or as operas/operettas - cases in point, Porgy and Bess and West Side Story. I have no doubt that Porgy and Bess is an opera, it's got the necessary musical structure and it was composed for operatic singing - but it *can* be sung as a musical. I have no doubt that West Side Story is a musical, but it *can* be sung as an opera (like the recording with Kiri Te Kanawa and Jose Carreras shows).

On the other hand, if a piece is composed for popular, amplified singing, and it's incompatible with operatic singing, then it *is* a musical and it is not classical music.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Chris said:


> I take the family to two or three G&S performances a year, always by local amateur companies. I have never attended an opera and probably never will, because:
> 
> 1. I do not know where proper opera is performed and I am too idle to inquire
> 2. G&S is in English. An opera would probably not be.
> ...


Chris, some suggestions:

1. Try the Met in HD cinema broadcasts, they're everywhere, and a close drive to many neighborhoods
2. There are good operas in English - Britten, for example
3. Seats for Met in HD are cheap


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

mamascarlatti said:


> I sometimes wonder whether appreciation for operetta might be linked in with the culture in which one developed one's sense of humour. For example I grew up in France, with English parents, so I appreciate Offenbach and Gilbert and Sullivan but find things like the Merry Widow and Die Fledermaus rather ponderous. Any thoughts?


Could very well be. I'm second-generation German, and the operettas I like are usually by German-speaking composers (Johann Strauss II, Lehar). On the other hand, I really don't "get" Gilbert and Sullivan, in spite of loving 19th century British literature. One of these days, I really need to listen to some of Offenbach's operettas . . .


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## larifari (Sep 5, 2011)

Almaviva said:


> I think the presence or absence of spoken dialogue, while an important and useful factor, is not all and not enough to classify a work as opera or operetta. We also need to be consider subject matter, duration, style, etc. Operettas tend to be light, uplifiting, funny, everybody has a good time, nobody dies, it doesn't take too long (there are exceptions to everything, of course - Die Fledermaus for instance is darn long), and like the Italians would say, it all ends in pizza (the French and Austrians might say it all ends in champagne). They definitely don't end in blood like Carmen. I think that in spite of certain of the multiple Carmen revised versions having spoken dialogue, Carmen is definitely an opera, for all the reasons above described - the heaviness and seriousness of the subject matter, the grandiosity of the scope, the elaborate sequences, the tragic death at the end. So, Carmen may have as much spoken dialogue as Die Fledermaus, but it's not full of waltzes and champagne.
> 
> Then, the line is a little blurrier when one considers comic opera in its various national varieties versus operettas - and that's when sometimes the spoken dialogue vs. recitative divide will come in handy. And the other way around also blurs the lines - take Simplicius for example, it does flirt into opera territory.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your reply, Almaviva.

Questions:

Subject matter of 'Don Pasquale' or 'Elisir d'Amour', or for that matter 'Marriage of Figaro' and 'Barber of Seville' is certainly light, yet they are classified as operas, while that of 'Giuiditta' and 'Der Zarevitch' is heavy enough to qualify them as operettas. Why?

American musicals are no less operettas than 'Nixon in China' is an opera. Do you agree?

When a kid can sing any words in any language to the tune of an opera aria, like I did when I was a kid, did I and/or any kid have or need any techniques to sing that tune?

Why aren't the 'musicals' of Sigmund Romberg considered to be operettas, when he quite clearly intended them to be operettas?

Would you consider Richard Margison incompatible with classical music because before his operatic career he sang Gordon Lightfoot songs in billiard halls and pubs?


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## AnaMendoza (Jul 29, 2011)

I've wondered for a long time what qualities make _The Daughter of the Regiment_ an opera, rather than an operetta. It has spoken dialog, an unimaginably fluffy plot and a not paticularly long running time. Is it classed as an opera entirely on account of the vocal challenges of its music?


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## larifari (Sep 5, 2011)

AnaMendoza said:


> I've wondered for a long time what qualities make _The Daughter of the Regiment_ an opera, rather than an operetta. It has spoken dialog, an unimaginably fluffy plot and a not paticularly long running time. Is it classed as an opera entirely on account of the vocal challenges of its music?


It has an aria with four, count them, four (4) high C's. Pavarotti sang them made him a star.

It is an opera.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

larifari said:


> It has an aria with four, count them, four (4) high C's. Pavarotti sang them made him a star.
> 
> It is an opera.


Counted 'em . . . nine!

*Definitely* an opera!


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## AnaMendoza (Jul 29, 2011)

larifari said:


> It has an aria with four, count them, four (4) high C's. Pavarotti sang them made him a star.
> 
> It is an opera.


Just four?

That was my point. Are we saying that operattas automatically become operas if the vocal writing is sufficiently difficult/spectacular? If so, we should include it in the definition. (Not that I think that classification of musical types is all that important.)


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## AnaMendoza (Jul 29, 2011)

amfortas said:


> Counted 'em . . . nine!
> 
> *Definitely* an opera!


So....if the tenor transposes down a half-step, is it still an opera?


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

AnaMendoza said:


> So....if the tenor transposes down a half-step, is it still an opera?


No, it's just a . . . *step* child!


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## GoneBaroque (Jun 16, 2011)

Certainly the plots of many Operettas are somewhat rediculious, as rdiculious as the plots of many well loved operas; but oh that delightful music. I love the sound of the human voice whether it be in art song, opera, operetta or choral works. I treasure many of the Austro-Hungarian and French opererttas (not much experience with the Spanish), yes and I love Gilbert and Sullivans even with the sometimes dated references in the lyrics.


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## larifari (Sep 5, 2011)

GoneBaroque said:


> Certainly the plots of many Operettas are somewhat rediculious, as rdiculious as the plots of many well loved operas; but oh that delightful music. I love the sound of the human voice whether it be in art song, opera, operetta or choral works. I treasure many of the Austro-Hungarian and French opererttas (not much experience with the Spanish), yes and I love Gilbert and Sullivans even with the sometimes dated references in the lyrics.


Totally true, GoneBaroque!!!

When it comes to beautiful melodies, NOTHING and I mean NOTHING can compare to operetta.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> I sincerely hope this is tongue-in-cheek, larifari, because here we struggle to treat other members nicely.
> I haven't seen the snobs you're talking about, and I don't see any lack of respect for vocal classical music either.
> Better proof, we have a thrilling Opera subforum which congregates a very large percentage of our members.
> 
> ...


I don't agree with your qualification...Auber as far as I know composed opéras comiques but not operettas...The real difference between operetta and opéra comique....I have no idea, maybe a "savant" here could explain.

Martin


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

@ Martin - you have a point with Auber. His works are technically classified as opéra-comiques (and so is Carmen) but on the other hand his works are a lot closer to operettas, just like Carmen is a lot closer to operas.

If you look at the list of operettas by Offenbach, which are clearly classified by everybody as operettas (except for Hoffmann and Die Rheinnixen), some of them were classified by Offenbach himself as opéra-comiques.

Opéra-comique is an umbrella term. At one point it referred simply to works with spoken dialogue performed at the Théâtre de L'Opéra-Comique versus works with recitative presented at Opéra Garnier. It is not a very well-defined category since its meaning has varied with time.

This is exactly why Offenbach started to adopt all sorts of different names to try to narrow it down. Some of the names he adopted, besides opéra-comique: légende musicale, pièce d'occasion, bouffonerie musicale, opérette, opérette bouffe, opéra bouffon, and even operetta.

Here is my take: the umbrella term opéra-comique can be further subdivided. It is not mutually exclusive with operetta. Certain opéra-comiques are operas (Carmen is an example). Certain opéra-comiques are operettas (e.g. Offenbach's _Messieur et Madame Denis_ which is clearly an operetta with waltz and all).


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

On a side note, listening to Schoenberg's _Cabaret Songs_ (_Brettl-Lieder_), I find it not too hard to imagine him successfully attempting operetta, if he was given the chance or had the inclination. Unfortunately, that never eventuated. However, another usually top-heavy and serious composer, Shostakovich, composed _Moscow Cheryomushki_ (premiered 1959) which was like an operetta incorporating even a rock band! I've never heard it in it's original form, only the orchestral suite, which came across as suitably light and tuneful...


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

larifari said:


> Subject matter of 'Don Pasquale' or 'Elisir d'Amour', or for that matter 'Marriage of Figaro' and 'Barber of Seville' is certainly light, yet they are classified as operas, while that of 'Giuiditta' and 'Der Zarevitch' is heavy enough to qualify them as operettas. Why?


Because they are _opere bouffe_, which is a subgenre of opera, not a subgenre of operetta. An _opera bouffa_ differs from an _opera seria_ not in terms of musical structure which is the same (_recitativo-aria_) but because the former adopts comic subjects with characters who are commoners, while the latter generally adopts tragic subjects with characters who are nobles or mythological figures.

I don't think _Giuditta _is that heavy, but I wouldn't be upset if it were classified as an opera. Lehár himself called it a "musical comedy" - not "_Operette_" like he did for _The Merry Widow_ or _Der Graf von Luxembourg_. You have a better case with _Der Zarevitch_, though. He did call it _Operette_ but I think its subject matter is too dark for the genre.



> American musicals are no less operettas than 'Nixon in China' is an opera. Do you agree?


Definitely not. American musicals are not operettas, and _Nixon in China_ is a _bona fide _opera. Most modern operas are declamatory and have no arias; it doesn't mean they aren't operas. American musicals have pop-like singing and microphones. They are most definitely not operettas for the simple reason that they aren't classical music.

Look, another way to see this clearly is to think of the casting. When you stage an operetta, you need classically trained opera singers - hopefully who can also act to make it lively and convincing - but primarily, you need them to *be* _classically_ trained opera singers, or else they won't be able to do it.

When you stage a musical, all that you need is theatrical actors who can sing reasonably well in a pop style with no need for classical singing techniques, and with microphones.

I'm not necessarily putting down musicals when I say this - each musical genre has its value. I'm just saying that they are a different musical genre, they don't belong in the umbrella of classical music. Certain musicals are excellent. But they aren't operettas.

Like in all classifications of human activity and art, a few works will blur the frontier; there will be some overlap... but most of the works from each genre are easier to classify. You can spend hours here finding exceptions and a few overlaps, and sure, there are works that are harder to classify. But most operettas *are* operettas and most musicals *are* musicals, no overlaps. If I listen to _Die Fledermaus_, I know it's an operetta. If I listen to _The Lion King_, I know it's a musical.



> When a kid can sing any words in any language to the tune of an opera aria, like I did when I was a kid, did I and/or any kid have or need any techniques to sing that tune?


I don't know where you are going here. Operatic singing has specific techniques that are not used in popular music or are used minimally in popular music - see our thread _Opera Terms_ for numerous examples - and requires years of training and lots of stamina to perform a fully staged opera for 2-3+ hours with no microphones and projecting the voice to the four corners of a cavernous opera house. Operatic singing is extremely difficult. People (even children) may be able to sing an aria; it doesn't mean they are opera singers. What the heck, people can even make a living singing arias - like Andrea Bocelli - and it still doesn't mean they are opera singers (he most definitely isn't one - *sometimes* he can sing beautifully but put him on stage for three hours without a microphone and you'll see that he'll fall apart). What exactly do you mean by what you've just said?



> Why aren't the 'musicals' of Sigmund Romberg considered to be operettas, when he quite clearly intended them to be operettas?


Some are. He wrote both operettas and musicals. Works like _The New Moon_ and _The Student Prince_ are generally considered to be operettas, while works like _Up in Central Park_ are much closer to musicals.



> Would you consider Richard Margison incompatible with classical music because before his operatic career he sang Gordon Lightfoot songs in billiard halls and pubs?


It's not the singer who makes the genre. When he was singing folk and country songs in billiard halls and pubs he wasn't singing opera. When he sang opera, then he was singing opera. Similarly, the other way around is also valid. Roberto Alagna is an opera singer. He can go on stage for three hours without amplification and can sing a full opera. But when he recorded a series of traditional Southern Italian songs and went on a tour with them (e.g., _La Luna Mezza Mari_) he didn't suddenly stop being an opera singer. But he wasn't singing opera, he was singing popular songs. Then when he went back to singing opera, he was again singing opera, not popular songs.

Individual human beings can be capable of singing different genres, given good training. But they don't define the genre themselves. What defines a genre is its music structure, style, and technical requirements. The *genre* may require classically trained singers to perform it correctly, but it doesn't mean that having such a singer on stage suddenly defines the genre. If a Broadway theater decides to hire an opera singer to be part of the cast of one of its musicals, it doesn't mean that by the sheer presence of that artist, the musical becomes an opera.

However, *without* classically trained operatic singers, you can't stage an opera.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

AnaMendoza said:


> Just four?
> 
> That was my point. Are we saying that operattas automatically become operas if the vocal writing is sufficiently difficult/spectacular? If so, we should include it in the definition. (Not that I think that classification of musical types is all that important.)


No, that's not it. Operettas also have operatic singing, and some arias from operettas are just as difficult. It's more the style, scope, subject matter, emphasis on the stage-play aspect with spoken dialogue, duration, lightness, etc, that makes of an operetta, an operetta. But operettas can have demanding vocal writing too, it doesn't automatically classify them as operas for having arias that are difficult for the singer. Some arias in _Die Fledermaus_ are definitely very operatic and require gifted singers.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

AnaMendoza said:


> I've wondered for a long time what qualities make _The Daughter of the Regiment_ an opera, rather than an operetta. It has spoken dialog, an unimaginably fluffy plot and a not paticularly long running time. Is it classed as an opera entirely on account of the vocal challenges of its music?


_La Fille du Régiment_ is an opéra-comique, and it is certainly very close to being an operetta. Like I said in other parts of this thread, the terms are not mutually exclusive in certain regards, and one grew out of the other. The fact that it was composed by Donizetti, a well established Italian composer of _opera seria_ and _opera bouffa_ probably has more to do with it being generally listed as an opera than its musical structure. However Donizetti was emulating the French style of light, comedic opéra-comique when he composed it in his Parisian séjour, and therefore I personally consider that it approaches a lot the operette style - certain works by Offenbach sound and feel similar (e.g., La Grande-Duchesse de Gérolstein).


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## AnaMendoza (Jul 29, 2011)

Almaviva said:


> La Fille du Régiment is an opéra-comique, and it is certainly very close to being an operetta. Like I said in other parts of this thread, the terms are not mutually exclusive in certain regards, and one grew out of the other. The fact that it was composed by Donizetti, a well established Italian composer of opera seria and opera bouffa probably has more to do with it being generally listed as an opera than its musical structure. However Donizetti was emulating the French style of light, comedic opéra-comique when he composed it in his Parisian séjour, and therefore I personally consider that it approaches a lot the operette style - certain works by Offenbach sound and feel similar.


Thank you. That makes a lot of sense to me.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> @ Martin - you have a point with Auber. His works are technically classified as opéra-comiques (and so is Carmen) but on the other hand his works are a lot closer to operettas, just like Carmen is a lot closer to operas.
> 
> If you look at the list of operettas by Offenbach, which are clearly classified by everybody as operettas (except for Hoffmann and Die Rheinnixen), some of them were classified by Offenbach himself as opéra-comiques.
> 
> ...


I have to say that I don't know the difference between operetta and opera comique...And by the way, Carmen is Not so comic unless you like "humour noir". LOL Could you explain the difference, please?

Martin


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

In my infinitely shallow ways, the CPO Lehar CD covers make me want to get out there and listen to some operettas (operettae?):


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Almaviva said:


> It's not the singer who makes the genre . . . The *genre* may require classically trained singers to perform it correctly, but it doesn't mean that having such a singer on stage suddenly defines the genre. If a Broadway theater decides to hire an opera singer to be part of the cast of one of its musicals, it doesn't mean that by the sheer presence of that artist, the musical becomes an opera.


An excellent point, Alma, and I'm inclined to agree with you. But I can't help wondering if it goes a little bit against what you yourself said earlier?



Almaviva said:


> I have no doubt that West Side Story is a musical, but it *can* be sung as an opera (like the recording with Kiri Te Kanawa and Jose Carreras shows).


Is that recording a case, then, where the singer *does* make the genre?

Just me playing devil's advocate, as usual! :devil:


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> I have to say that I don't know the difference between operetta and opera comique...And by the way, Carmen is Not so comic unless you like "humour noir". LOL Could you explain the difference, please?
> 
> Martin


Opéra-comique doesn't mean it's comic. It means it's a genre of opera with spoken dialogue mostly performed at that specific theater in Paris. Don't take the term comique literally.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

amfortas said:


> An excellent point, Alma, and I'm inclined to agree with you. But I can't help wondering if it goes a little bit against what you yourself said earlier?
> 
> Is that recording a case, then, where the singer *does* make the genre?
> 
> Just me playing devil's advocate, as usual! :devil:


I knew that someone would come up with this question, but it's not at all contradictory.

A *singer* doesn't make a genre. He's given a piece to sing. If he's an operatic singer but the piece he's given to sing is popular music, then it's not opera.

However certain pieces can be adapted to different styles of singing (e.g., Porgy & Bess, West Side Story). 
When they are performed with operatic techniques, they're performed *as an opera.*
When they are performed with pop music techniques, they're performed *as a musical.*

Like I said, hopefully the composer will have a say in adapting a piece to these genres, because definitely not all pieces are fit for this. Some are, like the above examples, which *both* had the composer's input in adapting it to one genre or the other.

So, Amfortas, when Bernstein rehearsed the artists (Te Kanawa, Carreras), conducted the piece, and adapted the vocal writing to an operatic-style of singing, he made his piece "West Side Story" compatible with an operatic presentation.

But, if Carreras or Te Kanawa were hired by a Broadway theater to sing West Side Story *in its usual musical form,* it's not the fact that these singers are otherwise opera singers that makes of West Side Story an opera. The music comes first to define the genre. The singer just performs it.

It's Bernstein's modification of the vocal writing to the techniques, style, and demands of operatic singing, that made of that recording of West Side Story, an operatic one.

You can get Ella Fitzgerald and Louis Armstrong to sing "Summertime" in pop style (I mean, American Standards style).
It doesn't deny the fact that Porgy & Bess is an opera, for the simple fact that its vocal writing was made for operatic singing.

I repeat - certain pieces (a few) can be *sung* both ways. But it's the way they're sung that defines the gender, not the human beings who are singing it (whether or not they are otherwise, in other parts of their professional lives, opera singers, doesn't matter - what matters is what the composer sets up for them to sing).


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> Opéra-comique doesn't mean it's comic. It means it's a genre of opera with spoken dialogue mostly performed at that specific theater in Paris. Don't take the term comique literally.


I know that...but...Being comic...How can you say when it is an opera or an operetta? I cannot! Il Barbiero de Seviglia is comic but an opera, Le nozze di Figaro the same....(opera again)...Then? Please tell me if you know...I love to learn new stuff.

Sincerely,

Martin


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> I know that...but...Being comic...How can you say when it is an opera or an operetta? I cannot! Il Barbiero de Seviglia is comic but an opera, Le nozze di Figaro the same....(opera again)...Then? Please tell me if you know...I love to learn new stuff.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Martin


I've already addressed this point above, Martin. Read the above posts carefully and you'll find my take on this - I'm not the ultimate authority, of course, I can only tell you what *my* take is.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Almaviva said:


> So, Amfortas, when Bernstein rehearsed the artists (Te Kanawa, Carreras), conducted the piece, and adapted the vocal writing to an operatic-style of singing, he made his piece "West Side Story" compatible with an operatic presentation.
> 
> But, if Carreras or Te Kanawa were hired by a Broadway theater to sing West Side Story *in its usual musical form,* it's not the fact that these singers are otherwise opera singers that makes of West Side Story an opera. The music comes first to define the genre. The singer just performs it.
> 
> It's Bernstein's modification of the vocal writing to the techniques, style, and demands of operatic singing, that made of that recording of West Side Story, an operatic one.


I think you make a good case, and once again I agree with you.

But now you've got me thinking about another question. *Did* Bernstein actually rewrite _West Side Story_, particularly the vocal parts, when he recorded it with opera singers? Did he need to? I always thought the original score was "operatic" enough not to require any later modifications.

I'm asking because I really don't know the answer to this question. Now you've got me curious.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

amfortas said:


> I think you make a good case, and once again I agree with you.
> 
> But now you've got me thinking about another question. *Did* Bernstein actually rewrite _West Side Story_, particularly the vocal parts, when he recorded it with opera singers? Did he need to? I always thought the original score was "operatic" enough not to require any later modifications.
> 
> I'm asking because I really don't know the answer to this question. Now you've got me curious.


All I know is that Bernstein in 1984 decided to re-record the musical "in operatic version" (sic) and conducted it himself, so I've always assumed that he made modifications. He got a full cast of top level operatic singers, including Kiri Te Kanawa, José Carreras, Tatiana Trojanos and Marilyn Horne. I'm saying I've always *assumed* it, but I don't even know very well the musical version so I can't really compare or be sure, sorry if I'm wrong (which in itself doesn't invalidate the point I was making, would just mean that West Side Story may not be a good example). The documentary on the 1984 recording shows Bernstein rehearsing the singers and asking for this and that in terms of manner of singing, which at the very least even if he didn't rewrite it, in itself is a modification of the vocal writing, although an informal one.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Almaviva said:


> The documentary on the 1984 recording shows Bernstein rehearsing the singers and asking for this and that in terms of manner of singing, which at the very least even if he didn't rewrite it, in itself is a modification of the vocal writing, although an informal one.


True, he could make demands on his operatic singers that might not have been possible otherwise--whether or not the vocal parts were actually rewritten.

The thing I remember most from that documentary was poor José Carreras. It was a strange idea from the very beginning to cast the Spanish singer as an American gang member, in a work where distinctions of nationality are crucial. Carreras could never overcome his thick accent enough to sound remotely authentic in the part, and Bernstein's cutting, sometimes downright harsh treatment of the tenor didn't make matters any easier. Watching the documentary, I was amazed that so much of that behind-the-scenes struggle made it to the final cut. Maybe the controversy helped sales--but it didn't inspire much confidence in the final product.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

amfortas said:


> True, he could make demands on his operatic singers that might not have been possible otherwise--whether or not the vocal parts were actually rewritten.
> 
> The thing I remember most from that documentary was poor José Carreras. It was a strange idea from the very beginning to cast the Spanish singer as an American gang member, in a work where distinctions of nationality are crucial. Carreras could never overcome his thick accent enough to sound remotely authentic in the part, and Bernstein's cutting, sometimes downright harsh treatment of the tenor didn't make matters any easier. Watching the documentary, I was amazed that so much of that behind-the-scenes struggle made it to the final cut. Maybe the controversy helped sales--but it didn't inspire much confidence in the final product.


I think I once read that Carreras was selected for the role only when the American tenor Bernstein originally wanted was unavailable. I also watched that documentary and felt very sorry for poor Carreras.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

MAuer said:


> I think I once read that Carreras was selected for the role only when the American tenor Bernstein originally wanted was unavailable. I also watched that documentary and felt very sorry for poor Carreras.


That sounds right . . . I somehow have it in mind that Jerry Hadley was the first choice (it would stand to reason, given his work on other Bernstein projects), but I'm not sure about that.


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## AnaMendoza (Jul 29, 2011)

Almaviva, how could you not be a total operetta enthusiast when this exists?






I mean, it's converted me to the operetta concept, and I have the wrong chromosome makeup to be really susceptible. 

My first try at posting a youtube clip--let's see how it works.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

It works, AnaMendoza, and yes, of course I do have this blu-ray, it's one of my favorite parts of it, and of course I also have Giuditta the operetta, and it's one of my favorite operettas. I do like several operettas, AnaMendoza. Not all of them, not even most of them, but I do like some. Unfortunately I don't think Anna has ever performed the full Giuditta; she only sang this aria in concert form. I'd love to see a Giuditta with Anna.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

AnaMendoza said:


> Almaviva, how could you not be a total operetta enthusiast when this exists?
> 
> I mean, it's converted me to the operetta concept, and I have the wrong chromosome makeup to be really susceptible.


Crikey if I was a man I'd be a puddle on the floor.


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## FragendeFrau (May 30, 2011)

Whoa, I finally watched that. Ridiculous!

Not only that but _Giuditta_ also gives us this, for the ladies:






Doesn't it just sound like an Errol Flynn swashbuckling adventure?

Sadly, there isn't a good (correct aspect ratio and synchron) upload of this performance, but the sound is OK and has already made it into an mp3 file on frafra's computer!

Just as you were converted by the lovely Anna, JK has made me a fan of this cornball stuff! Not sure I'd want to see an entire operetta, but if he wants to put out a CD of operetta songs I'll certainly buy it!


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

FragendeFrau said:


> Not sure I'd want to see an entire operetta


You know, _Die Fledermaus_ is definitely worth a try. It is rather high quality and it stands its own against many full-blown operas. The only problem for me is that the last act drags on a bit (it would improve with some judicious cuts), but other than that, it's rather enjoyable, and contains some rather beautiful music. This version is extremely funny, well sung, and well acted (it also comes on blu-ray):


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## FragendeFrau (May 30, 2011)

Thanks, alma!--of course for some reason I never think of Die Fledermaus as an operetta! I guess because the only times I've seen it have been at opera houses.

Thanks for the recommendation of a good version! Will definitely go on my wishlist.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

FragendeFrau said:


> Not sure I'd want to see an entire operetta


By this statement, I can say with 100% confidence that you've not seen the Dessay _Orphee aux Enfers_. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I literally can not imagine someone with any interest at all in opera or classical music not falling in love with this dvd. Riotously funny, Dessay in top form both singing and acting-wise, one stellar tune after another, some lovely (and funny!) ballet interludes, incredible staging by Laurent Pelly, lively and enthusiastic conducting by Mark Minkowski ... it is definitely one of my "desert island dvds".

Check out this duet! 



The dryly sarcastic way Dessay says "Tres bien, viva la luna"  is classic, as is her expression at 4:34 or 5:43 is just lol

I'd post more but the clips fall into two categories on YT for this piece -- good audio quality with no subtitles, or with subtitles and horrible audio quality 

OK, gotta post this one more: 




Not gonna stop banging the drum for this operetta until everyone on the opera board owns a copy


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> You know, _Die Fledermaus_ is definitely worth a try. It is rather high quality and it stands its own against many full-blown operas. The only problem for me is that the last act drags on a bit (it would improve with some judicious cuts), but other than that, it's rather enjoyable, and contains some rather beautiful music. This version is extremely funny, well sung, and well acted (it also comes on blu-ray):


Yes. Do get it. It's hilarious, and Tom Allen is amazing. As is everyone else, really.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

FragendeFrau said:


> Whoa, I finally watched that. Ridiculous!
> 
> Not only that but _Giuditta_ also gives us this, for the ladies:
> 
> ...


No doubt about it: Anna and Jonas both know how to sell a song!


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

rgz said:


> By this statement, I can say with 100% confidence that you've not seen the Dessay _Orphee aux Enfers_. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I literally can not imagine someone with any interest at all in opera or classical music not falling in love with this dvd. Riotously funny, Dessay in top form both singing and acting-wise, one stellar tune after another, some lovely (and funny!) ballet interludes, incredible staging by Laurent Pelly, lively and enthusiastic conducting by Mark Minkowski ... it is definitely one of my "desert island dvds".
> 
> Check out this duet!
> 
> ...


Orphée aux Enfers is absolute bliss. You know, it's Offenbach. What has he done that isn't highly enjoyable? And you're right, Natalie here is probably at her absolute best.

There is operetta and operetta. When it's high quality, it is. So in my humble opinion one can't say "I don't like operettas." I'd rather say, "I don't like bad operettas, just like I don't like bad operas. But I do like high quality operettas, as much as I like high quality operas."


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> And you're right, Natalie here is probably at her absolute best.


I've always thought it a bit strange that she hasn't done more operetta. It seems like it would have a lot to offer her:
1) generally spoken dialogue between numbers, allowing her more room to flex her acting skills (which she favors at least as much as her singing)
2) Offenbach operettas are largely (exclusively?) in French, which again lends itself to a more fulfilling acting experience -- always easier to work with one's native language
3) Usually very funny. She's said several times (in the Charlie Rose interview, in an interview during the Live in HD Lucia broadcast) that she prefers comedy to drama
4) I'd guess that the audience isn't quite as demanding for operetta -- partially because they are less familiar with the various Offenbach operettas than they are with, say, La Traviata which she just sang and will sing at the Met next season, and partly because it's just generally lighter fare. Obviously that's not relevant to her singing before the last year or so, but now her voice is (imo) in noticeable decline.

So it seems like operetta would be a natural -- not 100% of the time, of course, but a sprinkling here and there. Yet, from what I've read, Laurent Pelly had to twist her arm to get her to do Orphee aux Enfers. And it's not really viable outside of France, most likely; when's the last time the Met put on an Offenbach operetta? OK, they put on Orphee aux Enfers in 1999 (same production as the dvd but with an astonishing cast that included Dessay, Patricia Petibon as Cupid, Veronique Gens, and Ewa Podles), but aside from that? No idea, and probably none other during Dessay's career. Just strikes me as odd that she's been so resistant to the idea.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

rgz said:


> 2) Offenbach operettas are largely (exclusively?) in French


Not exclusively: _Fleurette, oder Trompeter und Näherin_.
Also, his other opera: _Die Rheinnixen_.

Both these works premiered in German, although they were initially set to French libretti but never premiered in French.

And his _Barbe-Bleue_ has received a popular German translation:


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