# Wagner's Tristan und Isolde



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Wagner's _Tristan und Isolde_ is one of the bedrocks of the opera tradition. Wikipedia, of course, has a good article about it.

But how do you feel about this opera? *What do you like or love about it?* How does it challenge you?

Also, feel free to discuss specific recordings, either audio or video. Here is Trout's list, based on his research.



> 1.	Furtwängler (cond.), Flagstad, Suthaus, Thebom, Fischer-Dieskau, Schock, Greindl, Philharmonia Orchestra, Royal Opera House Covent Garden Chorus	(1952)
> 
> 2.	Böhm (cond.), Nilsson, Windgassen, Ludwig, Talvela, Waechter, Schreier, Bayreuth Festival Orchestra & Chorus	(1966)
> 
> ...


I will link to some other TC posts and threads that are relevant to this discussion.

You can see where this work currently ranks compared to others on the Talk Classical Community's Favorite and Most Highly Recommended Works.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

One of the best resources on TC is Trout's blog about recordings of various works that were chosen by the original TC project. Here is his entry on Tristan und Isolde. The photo files don't work for me, but the information is still all there.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Diving and delving into _Tristan_ is opening a can of dragons. When it was first sprung upon the world, few people were ready for it: it sucked them into a vortex of never-before-heard passion, it repulsed them morally, it overcame them and left them fainting or numb or crying the night away. Wagner's own prediction that, properly performed, it would drive people insane proved near enough to the truth, and it may be perversely fortunate that the opera is nearly impossible to perform properly. But the first tenor to sing the part of Tristan took sick soon after the premiere and died, and it was said, romantically, that _Tristan_ had killed him (it was actually a rheumatic condition).

Wagner stated his intention for his opera thus: "Never in my life having enjoyed the true happiness of love I shall erect a memorial to this loveliest of all dreams in which, from the first to the last, love shall, for once, find utter repletion. I have devised in my mind a Tristan und Isolde, the simplest, yet most full-blooded musical conception imaginable, and with the 'black flag' that waves at the end I shall cover myself over - to die." He can be said to have fulfilled his intentions - though, fortunately, he didn't die - but the true nature of the opera, and whether it represents the "loveliest of all dreams" or a nightmare which we should hope never comes true for any of us, is forever up for debate.

Is _Tristan_ more a romantic tragedy, an exaltation of sexual passion, a religious drama, or something else, something unclassifiable? That depends on how we weight the many facets of its story, its text, and its music. But the music, I think, is the key, as it should be in opera, and it's no exaggeration to say that there was no precedent in music for the sheer unrelenting intensity of this score. No one, including Wagner himself, has tried to challenge it in this respect; it remains _sui generis,_ the archetype and sole representative of what has been called the "theater of passion." As such it's one of the highest and most representative achievements of the Western artistic mind, a point of reference not only for music but for our culture. It represents, precisely, the epitome and crisis of Romanticism.

I hesitate to say that I love _Tristan und isolde._ For me it's too much of a muchness to inspire an emotion I'd call "love," except in moments when I'm feeling young, foolish and brave (or remembering when I really was). Of Wagner's operas I can love _Die Walkure,_ or _Die Meistersinger,_ or _Parsifal,_ works which touch things in my soul which, however deep or even, at times, too deep for comfort, have remained with me, guarded and cherished, over the years. But the dark, unspeakable passion and self-rending catastrophe of _Tristan_ are too much and too unfamiliar (or thankfully forgotten) for me to cherish, except at certain moments when the desperate storm of passion relents and Wagner lets us glimpse the heartbreaking, transcendental beauty to which the whole ordeal aspires and which Isolde reaches at the end.

I can, at least, get through a performance of the opera with my mind intact. But a great performance still has for many people the kind of fearful power that Wagner imagined it would. As Nietzsche said: "The world is poor for him who has never been sick enough for this voluptuousness of hell."


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

The prelude is superb, but what follows sounds much like film music - merely playing a supporting role with the focus taken by the stage action. 

Getting through this work is a gruelling ordeal for me.

Surprised to see so few members posting here.

Have been listing to:
Barenboim (cond.), Ponnelle (dir.), Kollo, Meier, Salminen, Schwarz, Becht, Schunk, Pampuch, Bayreuth Festival Orchestra & Chorus (1983)


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

janxharris said:


> The prelude is superb, but what follows sounds much like film music - *merely playing a supporting role with the focus taken by the stage action. *
> 
> Getting through this work is a gruelling ordeal for me.
> 
> ...


Stage action? There is little or no stage action. Why the opera is best listened to as an aural experience rather than watching two mature singers (they have too be) trying to play two young lovers. It is a masterpiece but once I admire rather than love.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

DavidA said:


> Stage action? There is little or no stage action. Why the opera is best listened to as an aural experience rather than watching two mature singers (they have too be) trying to play two young lovers. It is a masterpiece but once I admire rather than love.


Indeed - little 'action' as such - should have referred the dialogue.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

To the list above, I can add the 1976 Bayreuth recording of Carlos Kleiber, which is quite a revelation. With the singers Wenkoff, Ligendza, Minton, McIntyre & Ridderbusch, I don't think you will ever hear a more electrifying interpretation. The DG studio recording is already very good, but this live recording is, well, alive!! And the sound is great. It is for sale at opera depot.

I also think this opera is fit for scenic performances. I once saw a live scenic performance conducted by Gergiev with video art on a huge screen by Bill Viola. This was a very convincing performance and might also work well for other Wagner opera's.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

DavidA said:


> Stage action? There is little or no stage action. Why *the opera is best listened to as an aural experience rather than watching two mature singers (they have too be) trying to play two young lovers*. It is a masterpiece but once I admire rather than love.


Thanks - already a better experience for me.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

This isn't my favourite of Wagner's operas and I much prefer the Ring and Parsifal. However, there are some sublime moments throughout. An interesting aspect of the opera is how it can be viewed as a backwards telling of how many people experience love in real life. (In the opera the couple start by hating each other and finish so in love they are prepared to die for the other!)

Rather than provide an insight into the work I would like to raise a question. What type of love does it depict? Is it youthful passion or some sort of mystical bond that can't be broken? It doesn't seem to me to be a mature, developed love with equal elements of emotion, reason and mysticism. What if the two protagonists had run away and lived together for twenty years, what would their relationship look like then?

N.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Diving and delving into _Tristan_ is opening a can of dragons. When it was first sprung upon the world, few people were ready for it: it sucked them into a vortex of never-before-heard passion, it repulsed them morally, it overcame them and left them fainting or numb or crying the night away. Wagner's own prediction that, properly performed, it would drive people insane proved near enough to the truth, and it may be perversely fortunate that the opera is nearly impossible to perform properly. But the first tenor to sing the part of Tristan took sick soon after the premiere and died, and it was said, romantically, that _Tristan_ had killed him (it was actually a rheumatic condition).
> 
> Wagner stated his intention for his opera thus: "Never in my life having enjoyed the true happiness of love I shall erect a memorial to this loveliest of all dreams in which, from the first to the last, love shall, for once, find utter repletion. I have devised in my mind a Tristan und Isolde, the simplest, yet most full-blooded musical conception imaginable, and with the 'black flag' that waves at the end I shall cover myself over - to die." He can be said to have fulfilled his intentions - though, fortunately, he didn't die - but the true nature of the opera, and whether it represents the "loveliest of all dreams" or a nightmare which we should hope never comes true for any of us, is forever up for debate.
> 
> ...


Wow, that's really over-the-top!


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> Wow, that's really over-the-top!


I know, right? It's almost as if _Tristan und Isolde_ were some kind of epochal landmark in the history of Western culture, or something! :lol:


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

NLAdriaan said:


> To the list above, I can add the 1976 Bayreuth recording of Carlos Kleiber, which is quite a revelation. With the singers Wenkoff, Ligendza, Minton, McIntyre & Ridderbusch, I don't think you will ever hear a more electrifying interpretation. The DG studio recording is already very good, but this live recording is, well, alive!! And the sound is great. It is for sale at opera depot.


I recently acquired this recording, and wholeheartedly second your recommendation. Already near the top of my list.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

millionrainbows said:


> Wow, that's really over-the-top!


A very good description of the opera.

I once gave the Bayreuth 1966 recording to a Mahler-loving acquaintance who hadn't yet explored Wagner, and he told me that when he first tried to listen to it he quickly found its intensity frightening and had to turn it off. He got the point. So did Clara Schumann who, proper lady that she was, said that the opera was the most disgusting thing she had ever seen or heard in her entire life. That has to be my favorite _Tristan_ story.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

The Conte said:


> ... What if the two protagonists had run away and lived together for twenty years, what would their relationship look like then?


It depends on how long the effects of the love potion last.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

> 7. Reiner (cond.), Flagstad, Melchior, Janssen, Kalter, List, London Philharmonic Orchestra, Royal Opera House Covent Garden Chorus (1936)


This is easily my favorite recording, and the one that made me really start to get what the opera, even Wagner was about. Before hearing Melchior and Flagstad, I hated Wagner's vocal writing. I still understand why Tchaikovsky was frustrated and said Wagner gave the singer a third French horn part instead of a vocal line... but I get it much more now after hearing those great singers.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> I would like to raise a question. What type of love does it depict? Is it youthful passion or some sort of mystical bond that can't be broken? It doesn't seem to me to be a mature, developed love with equal elements of emotion, reason and mysticism. What if the two protagonists had run away and lived together for twenty years, what would their relationship look like then?
> 
> N.


Someone said, succinctly, that _Tristan_ is not about love, it's about passion. The work shows how natural emotions, needs and drives - in this case sexual passion - eros - exist unhappily and are driven to desperate extremes and delusions in a world where human relationships are strictly defined and circumscribed by custom and ideology. Plenty of art - much of opera, in fact - deals with the struggle of love to find a way in a society that rejects its claims, but _Tristan_ distills, in a tale of extreme simplicity, both the power of passion and the pain of its incompatibility with what Tristan calls the "day world."

It's no use wondering about what sort of relationship the pair would have under different circumstances. In that "day world" there is no opportunity for the lovers to have a relationship in the mature sense of the word, and the only conceivable (to them) fulfillment of desire is desire's own cessation in death. We don't know whether they ever consummated their desire physically, but I'm inclined to say that it's at best irrelevant; the yearning is the point, and nothing short of the "love death" could satisfy it. King Marke's forgiveness came too late, not merely because Tristan was physically dead but because the lovers were long since dead to the world.


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2019)

For most opera seeing a stage production is a help for me. For T&I it is a hinderance. Nothing happens. I seem to recall a review of a Metropolitan Opera performance which characterized the two leads as resembling two dirigible competing for the same mooring.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Baron Scarpia said:


> For most opera seeing a stage production is a help for me. For T&I it is a hinderance. Nothing happens. I seem to recall a review of a Metropolitan Opera performance which characterized the two leads as resembling two dirigible competing for the same mooring.


I think you mean this production:

https://www.amazon.com/Richard-Wagn...olde+met+eaglen&qid=1571858247&s=music&sr=1-1

The lovers appeared incapable of moving, much less expressing anything. We can blame the singers (one of whom, Jane Eaglen, was so obese she seemed incapable of doing more than raising her arms), the director for not lighting a fire under them, and the stage designer for a drably austere production.

I don't think _Tristan_ is really an opera in which nothing happens. It just has to acted with intelligence and passion.


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> I think you mean this production:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Richard-Wagn...olde+met+eaglen&qid=1571858247&s=music&sr=1-1
> 
> ...


Could be the production I was thinking of. But I must say I have found the other productions I have seen (on DVD) to be unsatisfyingly static, including those with Waltrude Meier, who has the physical presence to pull off the part (and sing it). I have only enjoyed the piece in audio recordings, particularly the live Bohm recording on DGG.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Baron Scarpia said:


> Could be the production I was thinking of. But I must say I have found the other productions I have seen (on DVD) to be unsatisfyingly static, including those with Waltrude Meier, who has the physical presence to pull off the part (and sing it). I have only enjoyed the piece in audio recordings, particularly the live Bohm recording on DGG.


Have you seen this?


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> Have you seen this?


Wow!. That's awesome! what a cast. And great production too!!


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

DavidA said:


> Stage action? There is little or no stage action. Why the opera is best listened to as an aural experience rather than watching two *mature singers (they have too be) trying to play two young lovers*. It is a masterpiece but once I admire rather than love.


You're suggesting that there's an incongruity in such a portrayal - that such extreme passions are associated with young lovers?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

janxharris said:


> You're suggesting that there's an incongruity in such a portrayal - that such extreme passions are associated with young lovers?


Well they are supposed to be young lovers aren't they? If this is a drama they should look approximately young


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Itullian said:


> Wow!. That's awesome! what a cast. And great production too!!


This was the only complete film of a Wieland Wagner production.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Baron Scarpia said:


> For most opera seeing a stage production is a help for me. For T&I it is a hinderance. Nothing happens. I *seem to recall a review of a Metropolitan Opera performance which characterized the two leads as resembling two dirigible competing for the same mooring*.


I have it on DVD (bought for nothing in charity shop). Singing is fine but it looks ridiculous. As frankly do many productions with close ups of elderly singers. Better go audio.


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## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

science said:


> One of the best resources on TC is Trout's blog about recordings of various works that were chosen by the original TC project. Here is his entry on Tristan und Isolde. The photo files don't work for me, but the information is still all there.


Wow, what a blog! (I can see all the images)


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

DavidA said:


> Well they are supposed to be young lovers aren't they? If this is a drama they should look approximately young


Indeed - you don't think they succeed?

Edit: I see you have answered this.


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## damianjb1 (Jan 1, 2016)

janxharris said:


> The prelude is superb, but what follows sounds much like film music - merely playing a supporting role with the focus taken by the stage action.
> 
> Getting through this work is a gruelling ordeal for me.
> 
> ...


I struggled with it at first. It took me a while and then suddenly it clicked.
It was during Brangaene's Warning. I felt like I'd taken a mild dose of ecstasy. I had to turn it off and collect myself. I've never reacted to music like that before or since. An incredible once in a lifetime experience.
And now I find the Prelude to Act 3 the ultimate representation of tragedy. If I image what the worst thing that could possibly happen would sound like - it's the opening of Act 3.
I'd probably go the Böhm recording if I had to pick one as I think Nilsson is astounding. The moment in Act 2 when she throws the torch to the ground just before Tristan rushes in knocks the wind out of me.
Flagstad in the Furtwängler recording is pretty phenomenal too.
I love the piece but it definitely takes some work.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

damianjb1 said:


> I struggled with it at first. It took me a while and then suddenly it clicked.
> It was during Brangaene's Warning. I felt like I'd taken a mild dose of ecstasy. I had to turn it off and collect myself. I've never reacted to music like that before or since. An incredible once in a lifetime experience.
> And now I find the Prelude to Act 3 the ultimate representation of tragedy. If I image what the worst thing that could possibly happen would sound like - it's the opening of Act 3.
> I'd probably go the Böhm recording if I had to pick one as I think Nilsson is astounding. The moment in Act 2 when she throws the torch to the ground just before Tristan rushes in knocks the wind out of me.
> ...


Interesting - thanks.

You mean Brangäne's warning about Melot in Act II.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

DavidA said:


> Well they are supposed to be young lovers aren't they?


I don't believe that there's anything in the opera to suggest their age. Nor do I remember that there is any indication of the time between Acts 1 and 2.



> If this is a drama they should look approximately young.


That's fine if you don't expect them to sing well. And if you rely on video, it's harder to disguise age than it is on stage.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

wkasimer said:


> I don't believe that there's anything in the opera to suggest their age. Nor do I remember that there is any indication of the time between Acts 1 and 2.


Correct, although Wagner has Isolde referred to as the Irish/Ireland's child (Irisch/Irlands Kind) and as a Maid at various points in the opera; not conclusive, but suggestive of a young woman. In Gottfried von Strassburg's romance (Arthur Hatto's translation), she is often referred to as young. As a princess of marriageable age in the 12th Century, Gottfried's audience would probably have envisioned her as a teenager in any case, even if her age isn't specified. Likewise, Gottfried describes Tristan as a "young lord" and an "agreeable young man".


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

wkasimer said:


> I don't believe that there's anything in the opera to suggest their age. Nor do I remember that there is any indication of the time between Acts 1 and 2.
> 
> That's fine if you don't expect them to sing well. And if you rely on video, it's harder to disguise age than it is on stage.


The stage was a refuge for mature singers. These days it's harder and harder with better lighting and the effects. The problem Wagner set himself was to set music for young lovers that only mature singers (with the odd exception) could really sing. The last production of Tristan I saw was impossible to take seriously. Mind you, the last Trovatore was the same as the Manrico looked older than me! :lol:


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

damianjb1 said:


> And now I find the Prelude to Act 3 the ultimate representation of tragedy. If I image what the worst thing that could possibly happen would sound like - it's the opening of Act 3.


Very nice indeed - I'm listening to the Carlos Kleiber - Staatskapelle Dresden 1982.


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## damianjb1 (Jan 1, 2016)

janxharris said:


> Interesting - thanks.
> 
> You mean Brangäne's warning about Melot in Act II.


It comes midway through the love duet, "Einsam wachend in der Nacht".

And then it's repeated just before the end of the love duet.


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## nospoonboy (Jan 27, 2016)

I truly love this opera. I would add two of my favorites to the previous list:

1935 - Metropolitan Opera production conducted by Artur Bodanzky with Lauritz Melchior and Kirsten Flagstad
1937 - Royal Opera House production conducted by Thomas Beecham with Lauritz Melchior and Kirsten Flagstad

Both of these are available in good sound (for historical recordings) from Immortal Performances. They are ones I come back to again and again.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> I hesitate to say that I love _Tristan und isolde._ For me it's too much of a muchness to inspire an emotion I'd call "love," except in moments when I'm feeling young, foolish and brave (or remembering when I really was). Of Wagner's operas I can love _Die Walkure,_ or _Die Meistersinger,_ or _Parsifal,_ works which touch things in my soul which, however deep or even, at times, too deep for comfort, have remained with me, guarded and cherished, over the years. But the dark, unspeakable passion and self-rending catastrophe of _Tristan_ are too much and too unfamiliar (or thankfully forgotten) for me to cherish, except at certain moments when the desperate storm of passion relents and Wagner lets us glimpse the heartbreaking, transcendental beauty to which the whole ordeal aspires and which Isolde reaches at the end.
> 
> I can, at least, get through a performance of the opera with my mind intact. But a great performance still has for many people the kind of fearful power that Wagner imagined it would. As Nietzsche said: "The world is poor for him who has never been sick enough for this voluptuousness of hell."


I would advise you to lay off the _Tristan,_ for your own health and sanity. Some people can handle it, and some can't. It may be due to a genetic condition. The "disease model" is becoming more popular these days among doctors.

At any rate, the first step is in recognizing that you are, indeed, a "Wagnerholic." This is for your own good, and for the people you love.:lol:


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

Just got the Naxos Immortal Performances edition of _Tristan_ with Melchior, Traubel, Thorborg, and Leinsdorf conducting at the Met in 1943. Except for a fair amount of loud coughing, it's astounding. Traubel is simply out of this world, perhaps even surpassing Flagstad in 1936 with Reiner. This is truly an immortal performance.


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## OperaChic (Aug 26, 2015)

I am reminded of Father M. Owen Lee, who writing about Tristan und Isolde shared this anecdote:

"Some years ago a friend of mine went to see a performance of Tristan und Isolde at the old Metropolitan Opera House in New York, on 39th and Broadway. He sat alone in a box at what was by all reports a superlative performance and, as he put it himself, he suffered the torments of the damned. He thought Act I ear-splitting and intolerably long. Act II was occassionally quieter, but seemed even longer. And through both acts, he felt like that martyr in a medieval painting often mentioned in connection with Tristan - the unfortunate whose innards are slowly and painfully being extracted on a wheel. When the curtain rose on Act III, and my friend saw the tenor, who had already agonized through most of a long evening, sprawled on the stage delirious, while some melancholy pipe wailed interminably in the orchestra, he knew that he was in for at least another hour of the same tortures, and he fled the theatre."

There is certainly something unique about Tristan, something vast and overwhelming that has been remarked upon by commentators ever since its creation.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

^^^ The poor fellow had probably been told it was a medieval love story and was expecting something like _Camelot._


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Of possible interest to Tristan fans:

Felix Mottl


> ... leading the 100th performance of Wagner's Tristan und Isolde. He suffered a heart attack in the second act and died in a hospital 11 days later. Oh, and he married his mistress on his deathbed. Make of that what you will.


Joseph Keilberth


> In 1968, Keilberth, like Mottl, was in Munich conducting Tristan. And also, just like Mottl, he died doing what he loved.


Story:
https://www.wqxr.org/story/conductors-who-have-died-podium/


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Fritz Kobus said:


> Of possible interest to Tristan fans:
> 
> Felix Mottl
> 
> ...


Never quite sure how much we should read into these deaths. Sinopoli died of a heart attack at the age of 54 while conducting Verdi's Aida. Does this have anything to do with Aida or the fact he had a weak heart?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Never quite sure how much we should read into these deaths. Sinopoli died of a heart attack at the age of 54 while conducting Verdi's Aida. Does this have anything to do with Aida or the fact he had a weak heart?


Well, _Tristan_ was premiered in Munich. The tenor who sang the premiere died (apparently of a rheumatic condition) two weeks later. Both Mottl and Keilberth were conducting the opera in Munich when they had heart attacks.

It's fanciful, no doubt, to say that _Tristan _killed these people, but we might well be cautious about performing such a physically taxing and emotionally draining work in less than good health. Especially in Munich...


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> Well, _Tristan_ was premiered in Munich. The tenor who sang the premiere died (apparently of a rheumatic condition) two weeks later. Both Mottl and Keilberth were conducting the opera in Munich when they had heart attacks.
> 
> It's fanciful, no doubt, to say that _Tristan _killed these people, but we might well be cautious about performing such a physically taxing and emotionally draining work in less than good health. Especially in Munich...


I wonder of Gustav Mahler ever conducted Tristan. His fear of writing a ninth symphony and with his heart palpations, one might guess not.


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

Fritz Kobus said:


> I wonder of Gustav Mahler ever conducted Tristan. His fear of writing a ninth symphony and with his heart palpations, one might guess not.


Mahler apparently conducted the opera in Vienna (maybe more details are about?) there is info here about his annotated score which survives as discussed by Simon Rattle
Source: http://www.metorchestramusicians.org/blog/2016/9/29/mahlers-tristan


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## OperaChic (Aug 26, 2015)

Fritz Kobus said:


> I wonder of Gustav Mahler ever conducted Tristan.


He absolutely did conduct it; in fact before Simon Rattle conducted the opera at the MET a couple of years ago he apparently studied a copy of the score that Mahler had made notes and observations on:

RATTLE AT THE MET: I LEARNED MY TRISTAN TEMPI FROM MAHLER'S SCORE

EDIT: I was beaten to it! :lol:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Mahler's 1903 performances of _Tristan_ at the Vienna Opera are considered a landmark production, featuring the simplified, expressionistic sets of Alfred Roller, who put into practice some of the ideas of the visionary theorist of the theater, Adolphe Appia. Appia's ideas offered precedents for the productions of Wieland Wagner, with their move away from realistic sets and toward the use of abstract stage pictures and the expressive use of light to mirror the moods of the music and illuminate the psychology of the characters. Roller didn't go as far as Appia or Wieland in the direction of visual abstraction, but his productions were a decisive step toward modern concepts of staging.

Here are some images from Appia's, Roller's and Wieland's conceptions of _Tristan:_

https://www.google.com/search?biw=1...&ved=0ahUKEwi81JfKm9zlAhXqHDQIHee8CUYQ4dUDCAc

https://www.google.com/search?sa=X&...lAhWPGDQIHX4wA58QsAR6BAgIEAE&biw=1242&bih=597

https://www.google.com/search?biw=1...&ved=0ahUKEwjjw5_LnNzlAhWTFzQIHWU6CnwQ4dUDCAc


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## txtrnl341 (Jan 21, 2020)

Yes, she warns them twice but fails when it matters. Maybe she fell asleep.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

txtrnl341 said:


> Yes, she warns them twice but fails when it matters. Maybe she fell asleep.


Either that or she got absorbed in a good book. Wolfram von Eschenbach's "Parzival," maybe.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Either that or she got absorbed in a good book. Wolfram von Eschenbach's "Parzival," maybe.


Or the Story of Ginevra...

N.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Mahler's 1903 performances of _Tristan_ at the Vienna Opera are considered a landmark production, featuring the simplified, expressionistic sets of Alfred Roller, who put into practice some of the ideas of the visionary theorist of the theater, Adolphe Appia. Appia's ideas offered precedents for the productions of Wieland Wagner, with their move away from realistic sets and toward the use of abstract stage pictures and the expressive use of light to mirror the moods of the music and illuminate the psychology of the characters. Roller didn't go as far as Appia or Wieland in the direction of visual abstraction, but his productions were a decisive step toward modern concepts of staging.
> 
> Here are some images from Appia's, Roller's and Wieland's conceptions of _Tristan:_
> 
> ...


Roller also did some fabulous stage designs for Rosenkavalier. Great set designer IMHO.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Mahler's 1903 performances of _Tristan_ at the Vienna Opera are considered a landmark production, featuring the simplified, expressionistic sets of Alfred Roller, who put into practice some of the ideas of the visionary theorist of the theater, Adolphe Appia. Appia's ideas offered precedents for the productions of Wieland Wagner, with their move away from realistic sets and toward the use of abstract stage pictures and the expressive use of light to mirror the moods of the music and illuminate the psychology of the characters. Roller didn't go as far as Appia or Wieland in the direction of visual abstraction, but his productions were a decisive step toward modern concepts of staging.
> 
> Here are some images from Appia's, Roller's and Wieland's conceptions of _Tristan:_
> 
> ...


This is a link to a nice article on Roller

https://mahlerfoundation.org/en/mahler/personen-2/roller-alfred-1864-1935


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## Parsifal1954 (May 6, 2013)

Tristan & Isolde is my favorite music drama. My desert island piece of music. But I'm still puzzled about one thing. In all books and articles I've read about this music drama, the authors have said that the potion's content is not important. It can be just water. Since both believe it is the death potion and they're dying, they feel free to express their mutual feeling of love to each other. But my question is if this is true and Tristan is in love with Isolde since the time she healed his wound, why he volunteers to go to Ireland and bring Isolde for king Mark? My take of this is, yes, he is in love with Isolde. But he knows their love is impossible in the world of the day. It is only possible in the world of night, In death. That's where love-death comes from. True love is only possible in death. I appreciate your input Tristan lovers.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Parsifal1954 said:


> Tristan & Isolde is my favorite music drama. My desert island piece of music. But I'm still puzzled about one thing. In all books and articles I've read about this music drama, the authors have said that the potion's content is not important. It can be just water. Since both believe it is the death potion and they're dying, they feel free to express their mutual feeling of love to each other. But my question is if this is true and Tristan is in love with Isolde since the time she healed his wound, why he volunteers to go to Ireland and bring Isolde for king Mark? My take of this is, yes, he is in love with Isolde. But he knows their love is impossible in the world of the day. It is only possible in the world of night, In death. That's where love-death comes from. True love is only possible in death. I appreciate your input Tristan lovers.


On a purely practical level (ruminations on love-death and the wondrous realm of night aside), all the customs of society are arrayed against Tristan's and Isolde's personal desires. Isolde is a princess; she is royalty. Tristan is not. He is also loyal to Marke, who is both his uncle and his king, and is bound to serve his master's interests in every way possible. Given the necessity of suppressing his feelings, Tristan chose, or assented to (could he have refused?), the most drastic possible way of accomplishing that. At the same time, he may have deceived himself into imagining that having Isolde as his queen was better than not having her at all. He may even have envisioned inheriting the kingship from his childless uncle, and his aunt along with it. Of course that is all wishful, if not indeed magical, thinking. Defined by his social station, Tristan's only only self-justification, so long as he's alive, is the service of Marke, and that self-denying duty entails a degree of emotional suicide which affirms his tragic sense of life, makes literal death a welcome prospect, and allows him to throw his fate to the winds and, in the ultimate irony, betray his king. This is the meaning of his statement, in Act 3 of the opera, that he brewed the death-potion himself.


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## Parsifal1954 (May 6, 2013)

Thank you Woodduck for your input. Good point. But I still feel Tristan has always been looking for death, the world of the night. In his talks to Isolde in act 2 and to Kurwenal in act 3, he insists he wants to go back to the place where his mother sent him from to the world of the day where true love (and the truth) is impossible. His comments reminds me of the Rhinemaidens who sing the falsehood belongs to the above (daylight) and the truth belongs to the deep (night). I think here Wagner, among many other Romantic artists and writers is contrasting the world view of the Enlightenment (Magic Flute) with their own world after the return of the Bourbon dynasty to the French throne and the defeat of both 1830 and 1848 revolutions. His Tristan is the Magic Flute 180 degrees turned around. That is why Schopenhauer's pessimistic philosophy was so appealing to him.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Parsifal1954 said:


> Thank you Woodduck for your input. Good point. But I still feel Tristan has always been looking for death, the world of the night. In his talks to Isolde in act 2 and to Kurwenal in act 3, he insists he wants to go back to the place where his mother sent him from to the world of the day where true love (and the truth) is impossible. His comments reminds me of the Rhinemaidens who sing the falsehood belongs to the above (daylight) and the truth belongs to the deep (night). I think here Wagner, among many other Romantic artists and writers is contrasting the world view of the Enlightenment (Magic Flute) with their own world after the return of the Bourbon dynasty to the French throne and the defeat of both 1830 and 1848 revolutions. His Tristan is the Magic Flute 180 degrees turned around. That is why Schopenhauer's pessimistic philosophy was so appealing to him.


"Day" in _Tristan_ means in my opinion something else than the same word in the _Ring_. Tristan should be interpreted through Schopenhauer while the _Ring_ wasn't influenced by him as much. The _Ring_ is more about human transformation. Tristan wants to die because of his love, he wasn't exactly looking for an excuse to die. I agree with Woodduck, I think that Tristan's disloyalty portrays how his whole being, whose essence is his loyalty, is just transformed into love - without love his life doesn't have meaning anymore, it's his whole essence by the end of Act III.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Parsifal1954 said:


> Thank you Woodduck for your input. Good point. But I still feel Tristan has always been looking for death, the world of the night. In his talks to Isolde in act 2 and to Kurwenal in act 3, he insists he wants to go back to the place where his mother sent him from to the world of the day where true love (and the truth) is impossible. His comments reminds me of the Rhinemaidens who sing the falsehood belongs to the above (daylight) and the truth belongs to the deep (night). I think here Wagner, among many other Romantic artists and writers is contrasting the world view of the Enlightenment (Magic Flute) with their own world after the return of the Bourbon dynasty to the French throne and the defeat of both 1830 and 1848 revolutions. His Tristan is the Magic Flute 180 degrees turned around. That is why Schopenhauer's pessimistic philosophy was so appealing to him.


I think we can get too philosophical about _Tristan und Isolde._ In particular, the influence of Schopenhauer has less presence in the opera than is often imagined. Schopenhauer would not have recognized Isolde's love-death as the goal of his philosophy!

It's hard to imagine a person having "always" wanted to die, literally or figuratively, although such psychologically defective people may exist (my guess is that most of them would be child suicides). I don't think Tristan and Isolde have an actual death-wish - or, rather, their wish to leave this life behind is a rejection of the kind of life which kills the spirit. They want life, but not life of a sort which their world can offer them or even allow them to consider. Wagner's operas generally deal with people who are out of step with the conventions of the societies in which they find themselves, and who, though their quest may result in their actual deaths, would die inwardly if they gave up the struggle. Tristan, born into his role in the "day world" and, without a doubt, a man of melancholy temperament, perceives life's predicament as foreordained and as irresistibly tragic. Isolde, a princess and no one's vassal, is more fiery and passionate by nature; out of pain, humiliation and rage she actively invites death and offers it to Tristan when he seems passively resigned to his sad fate (I've long thought that the opera should be called "Isolde und Tristan," since the stage actions which begin, propel forward, and conclude the story are carried out by her).


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## Parsifal1954 (May 6, 2013)

Great discussion "Woodduck" and "annaw". Thank you. I appreciate your input.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

I listened to this opera for the first time in full this week. Wow. Wow. Wow. I absolutely have no problem seeing why many people at the premiere stayed up all night crying (really, if you don't feel like your whole body is coming down from a high at the final notes, you have a heart of stone). Such exaltation of diabolical passion had to be considered obscene in the day. Throughout, as I followed with the libretto (which in itself is a whole separate matter ripe for analysis with its proto-Symbolist imagery) I found myself not necessarily emotionally moved by a heart-wrenching love story but physically disturbed by what kind of human mind could come up with this stuff. The only other piece of music that I've felt that way is with Mahler 6. Certainly Wagner was a tremendous genius, one of the greatest in all music, if only because he could sublimate such histrionic ideas that show humanity at its most extreme into musical form. I'm still not totally convinced that he was a master of the gargantuan structures that he loved - it sounds to me as if he relies too much on different forms of the prelude theme to the extent that contrast is lost, and I still find myself quite bored during the calmer moments (and does Tristan really need three separate 10-minute dissertations on his anguish during Act III?) - but no doubt this opera deserves to be hailed as a supreme masterpiece not just of music but of the grand cultural tradition of the West. What I'm struggling with is how anyone could listen to this (and all Wagner) as often as some people seem to. For me, Wagner is a special treat; if I listened to him every day I think I would go insane from being exposed to such over-the-top uber-Romantic convulsions. How do dedicated Wagnerians do it? How _Tristan_ could be "loveable" is beyond me; disturbing, tremendous, earth-shattering, inspired, innovative...all these things and so much more. But I would never call it one of my favorites. To routinely subject oneself to this animal passion seems to me like pure sadism. Something about Wagner goes deeper than just how beautiful the music sounds; like no other composer his art seems to burrow deep into the brain and lodge itself somewhere in the subconscious that is capable of haunting the listener for days. I experienced this too with _Parsifal_ - the first time I heard it I thought it was kind of dull. But now when I hear that Act I prelude it's almost unbearably sublime and I can't stop thinking about it for hours after.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

i do love it for all the emotions.
It always brings a tear to my eyes at the end though.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

The more I listen to Wagner, particularly _Tristan_ and _Parsifal_, the more I start to understand what Nietzsche might have meant when he called Wagner a disease. Wagner IS a disease but what a beautiful and sublime one! I don't think any other composer has managed to touch and move me as deeply as he - "Ah, this old magician! This Klingsor of all Klingsors!"


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> The only other piece of music that I've felt that way is with Mahler 6. Certainly Wagner was a tremendous genius, one of the greatest in all music, if only because he could sublimate such histrionic ideas that show humanity at its most extreme into musical form. I'm still not totally convinced that he was a master of the gargantuan structures that he loved - it sounds to me as if he relies too much on different forms of the prelude theme to the extent that contrast is lost, and I still find myself quite bored during the calmer moments (*and does Tristan really need three separate 10-minute dissertations on his anguish during Act III?*) - but no doubt this opera deserves to be hailed as a supreme masterpiece not just of music but of the grand cultural tradition of the West. What I'm struggling with is how anyone could listen to this (and all Wagner) as often as some people seem to. For me, Wagner is a special treat; if I listened to him every day I think I would go insane from being exposed to such over-the-top uber-Romantic convulsions.


Just an idea which might you: every single word in the libretto is written by Wagner, meaning that every single word has a very good reason to be there. I don't think Wagner wasted a single note in larger perspective as he needed them to convey the meaning of the work which is closely tied with the music. With Wagner it's important to remember that the music itself is dramatic and has to be approached from a slightly different angle than pure or non-dramatic music.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

The "disease" is that some pieces make one transcend oneself, lose the self-awareness of one's identity and blend with the music or the music drama being presented, and that is very addictive. The genius of Wagner is that as he recognized that for a large portion of the public to reach that state it requires time, he had the courage to extend the time and slow down the action for the audiences to achieve that state. Many musicians and singers have spoken about the addiction of performing because they reach that state and do not want to give that up. 

The magic of music and music drama is that I believe that it facilitates that slowing of time and put one in a position of transcending.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

annaw said:


> Just an idea which might you: every single word in the libretto is written by Wagner, meaning that every single word has a very good reason to be there. I don't think Wagner wasted a single note in larger perspective as he needed them to convey the meaning of the work which is closely tied with the music. With Wagner it's important to remember that the music itself is dramatic and has to be approached from a slightly different angle than pure or non-dramatic music.


Which begs the question - why on earth do producers think they can get away with making cuts in this or any other opera. If the composer had intended it to be shorter he would likely have written it that way. I makes me mad.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Barbebleu said:


> Which begs the question - why on earth do producers think they can get away with making cuts in this or any other opera. If the composer had intended it to be shorter he would likely have written it that way. I makes me mad.


That's my main problem with cuts as well! Wagner who was frustrated when he had to write a few additional minutes of Transformation music, which he composed with a watch in his hand, must be turning in his grave when people think it's a good idea to cut his operas some 15 minutes shorter...


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

_Tristan und Isolde_ touches on man's deepest yearning, though he would never admit it: the yearning for total oblivion. The total loss of self, the exhaustion of all pretenses to insatiable worldly desire, the surrender to the night, the abdication to inevitable death. Sure one will go insane if he listens to it too often... but how sweet the insanity!


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## Parley (May 29, 2021)

Couchie said:


> _Tristan und Isolde_ touches on man's deepest yearning, though he would never admit it: the yearning for total oblivion. The total loss of self, the exhaustion of all pretenses to insatiable worldly desire, the surrender to the night, the abdication to inevitable death. Sure one will go insane if he listens to it too often... but how sweet the insanity!


 My deepest yearning does not happen to be for total oblivion. Every man to his own though!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Pleasure/pain, passion/release from passion, life/death... _Tristan_ obliterates dichotomies and identities in a gigantic orgasm.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Parley said:


> My deepest yearning does not happen to be for total oblivion. Every man to his own though!


That's because you're deluded by the vanities of day. :lol:

_Then am I_
_myself the world;_
_floating in sublime bliss,_
_life of love most sacred,_
_the sweetly conscious_
_undeluded wish:_
_never again to waken._


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

This opera. It is the music that my blood sings to me at night. It is the Muse. It is both waking and sleeping. It is the fire of my loins. It is breath and yearning and sorrow and pure light.

It strikes a chord in the depths of my soul. I want the Liebestod to be the last music I hear as I draw my final breath on this earth.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

A century and a half later, and people are still talking like this. It's insane - or truly sane.

Wagner must have done something right - or terribly wrong. 

Sanity/insanity. Right/wrong. More dichotomies obliterated.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

RW paraphrase, 'I think i'll write a couple of small operas which can be more easily performed'. 
Tristan and Meistersinger :lol:


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## Parley (May 29, 2021)

Couchie said:


> That's because you're deluded by the vanities of day. :lol:
> 
> _Then am I_
> _myself the world;_
> ...


If oblivion is the way out of the delusion, by all means be my guest! After you!


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Parley said:


> If oblivion is the way out of the delusion, by all means be my guest! After you!


Then I'll prepare the draught of death! Side effects may include hopelessly falling in love with me. :devil:

_Before him_
_who has lovingly looked_
_at death's night,_
_and has known_
_its deep secrets,_
_the lies of daylight honour and fame,_
_power and profit,_
_glittering so bright -_
_are scattered_
_like barren dust in the sun._
_Amid day's empty fancies_
_one single longing remains,_
_the longing_
_for holy night,_
_where everlasting,_
_solely true,_
_love's delight laughs to him!_


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## Parley (May 29, 2021)

Couchie said:


> Then I'll prepare the draught of death! Side effects may include hopelessly falling in love with me. :devil:
> 
> _Before him_
> _who has lovingly looked_
> ...


When you're dead?


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

I think Bela Lugosi would probably be in agreement.

"Listen to them. Children of the night. What music they make."


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Itullian said:


> RW paraphrase, 'I think i'll write a couple of small operas which can be more easily performed'.
> Tristan and Meistersinger :lol:


"I have composed a tiny, tiny piano concerto with a tiny, tiny wisp of a scherzo."
http://kellydeanhansen.com/opus83.html
Piano Concerto in No.2 B flat Op.83 LOL


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## damianjb1 (Jan 1, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> Well, _Tristan_ was premiered in Munich. The tenor who sang the premiere died (apparently of a rheumatic condition) two weeks later. Both Mottl and Keilberth were conducting the opera in Munich when they had heart attacks.
> 
> It's fanciful, no doubt, to say that _Tristan _killed these people, but we might well be cautious about performing such a physically taxing and emotionally draining work in less than good health. Especially in Munich...


I blame Munich.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

damianjb1 said:


> I blame Munich.


Sadly, the deceased musicians' estates can't sue the city for damages, as the statute of limitations has run out.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

On June 29 in Munich feast your ears on a mega performance with two superb greats: Kaufmann and Harteros. What could be more exciting?


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

nina foresti said:


> On June 29 in Munich feast your ears on a mega performance with two superb greats: Kaufmann and Harteros. What could be more exciting?


More exciting? _Not_ feasting one's ears on a mega-performance if it would sound similar to this but for 3.5 hours:


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## LeoPiano (Nov 1, 2020)

I only started getting into classical music a couple of years ago, and opera only recently. I listened to parts of the Ring, and loved it. I wanted to explore more Wagner, and so I searched up his other operas, and listened to them on Amazon Music (I usually sample recordings there before purchasing the CD to make sure that I like it). I started playing it, and I got chills after chills when hearing the rich chords that were playing. It was one of the most electrifying experiences ever, and it was the first Wagner opera where I listened to it start to finish in one day. Recently, I have explored the Furtwangler recording (I had heard great thing about it, but I saw the 4 hours and 15 minute total timing, and didn’t want to explore any further because I assumed it was going to drag too much). Well, my whole perception of the opera changed. I have never heard the Love Duet in Act 2 sung so beautifully, nor has it been so, ahem, “loving.” The Bohm recording was so exciting that I almost forgot how beautiful the music actually is, and the Furtwangler recording reminded me of that. Now, if I want to listen to the opera, I usually listen to the Bohm recording in Acts 1 and 3, and Furtwangler in Act 2.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Welcome to the TC!
By the way, have you tried Bernstein?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

LeoPiano said:


> I only started getting into classical music a couple of years ago, and opera only recently. I listened to parts of the Ring, and loved it. I wanted to explore more Wagner, and so I searched up his other operas, and listened to them on Amazon Music (I usually sample recordings there before purchasing the CD to make sure that I like it). I started playing it, and I got chills after chills when hearing the rich chords that were playing. It was one of the most electrifying experiences ever, and it was the first Wagner opera where I listened to it start to finish in one day. Recently, I have explored the Furtwangler recording (I had heard great thing about it, but I saw the 4 hours and 15 minute total timing, and didn't want to explore any further because I assumed it was going to drag too much). Well, my whole perception of the opera changed. I have never heard the Love Duet in Act 2 sung so beautifully, nor has it been so, ahem, "loving." The Bohm recording was so exciting that I almost forgot how beautiful the music actually is, and the Furtwangler recording reminded me of that. Now, if I want to listen to the opera, I usually listen to the Bohm recording in Acts 1 and 3, and Furtwangler in Act 2.


I smile broadly reading this, as my feelings about Bohm's supercharged energy and Furtwangler's profound poetry closely match yours. I think their respective casts mirror the qualities of their conducting, resulting in radically different performances overall. I have never heard a second act so deeply romantic, timeless and beautiful as Furtwangler's, on records or off, and I can hardly imagine the possibility of one. His patient unfolding of the gorgeous polyphony of Brangaene's warning alone nearly makes the rest of our mortal life an anticlimax; the lovers' blissful illusion of eternity, and the whole exquisite sweetness and tragedy of an impossible love, is fully realized. Listening to this, we can understand why Verdi, near the end of his life, said that _Tristan_'s second act filled him with wonder and terror, and we can justifiably feel that we are hearing something beyond music as we normally understand it.


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## Music Snob (Nov 14, 2018)

LeoPiano said:


> I only started getting into classical music a couple of years ago, and opera only recently. I listened to parts of the Ring, and loved it. I wanted to explore more Wagner, and so I searched up his other operas, and listened to them on Amazon Music (I usually sample recordings there before purchasing the CD to make sure that I like it). I started playing it, and I got chills after chills when hearing the rich chords that were playing. It was one of the most electrifying experiences ever, and it was the first Wagner opera where I listened to it start to finish in one day. Recently, I have explored the Furtwangler recording (I had heard great thing about it, but I saw the 4 hours and 15 minute total timing, and didn't want to explore any further because I assumed it was going to drag too much). Well, my whole perception of the opera changed. I have never heard the Love Duet in Act 2 sung so beautifully, nor has it been so, ahem, "loving." The Bohm recording was so exciting that I almost forgot how beautiful the music actually is, and the Furtwangler recording reminded me of that. Now, if I want to listen to the opera, I usually listen to the Bohm recording in Acts 1 and 3, and Furtwangler in Act 2.


Welcome- you are among friends here.

I don't think I'm alone here in recommending the Flagstad and Melchior recordings between 1935 and 1941. They even recorded a studio love duet conducted by Edwin McArthur in 1940 on the RCA label.


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## LeoPiano (Nov 1, 2020)

Woodduck said:


> I smile broadly reading this, as my feelings about Bohm's supercharged energy and Furtwangler's profound poetry closely match yours. I think their respective casts mirror the qualities of their conducting, resulting in radically different performances overall. I have never heard a second act so deeply romantic, timeless and beautiful as Furtwangler's, on records or off, and I can hardly imagine the possibility of one. His patient unfolding of the gorgeous polyphony of Brangaene's warning alone nearly makes the rest of our mortal life an anticlimax; the lovers' blissful illusion of eternity, and the whole exquisite sweetness and tragedy of an impossible love, is fully realized. Listening to this, we can understand why Verdi, near the end of his life, said that _Tristan_'s second act filled him with wonder and terror, and we can justifiably feel that we are hearing something beyond music as we normally understand it.


Beautifully said. You just put into words what I had experienced when I first heard Act 2 of Tristan. I had already read the plot, and I knew that Tristan and Isolde would be caught during this scene, but I too got caught up in the emotions of the Love Duet. When "So sturben wir, um ungetrennt" started, I could feel myself melting into the music. I felt the music building up into the largest climax I had heard until this point, and when I heard the dissonant chord and "Rette dich, Tristan!" I was amazed at how wonderfully Wagner was able to shock me. King Marke's guilt trip (as David Hurwitz calls it) didn't seem out of place for me on the first listen. I was still in shock from what just happened, and it was a nice place to catch my breath. Even then, I wasn't prepared for the sword fight between Melot and Tristan. Especially on Bohm's recording, the shock of the brass blaring out creates one of the most heart-wrenching finales I have ever heard. While I did listen to the recording in one day, I had to take a break after hearing the 2nd Act. This was the first time where my emotions have been this overwhelmed when listening to music. I'd listened to "gut-wrenching" pieces before such as Mahler 6, but this was an entirely different beast, and nothing would have prepared me for the amount of emotions I experienced during this listen.


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## LeoPiano (Nov 1, 2020)

Music Snob said:


> Welcome- you are among friends here.
> 
> I don't think I'm alone here in recommending the Flagstad and Melchior recordings between 1935 and 1941. They even recorded a studio love duet conducted by Edwin McArthur in 1940 on the RCA label.






I've heard this one before. The combination of Flagstad's and Melchior's voice is wonderful. I don't know the circumstances of the time period, but I wish they could have recorded it in 1952 with Furtwangler in good mono. While his recording is still the best alongside Bohm's, there wouldn't be any competition if Melchior was in it imo.


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## LeoPiano (Nov 1, 2020)

Azol said:


> Welcome to the TC!
> By the way, have you tried Bernstein?


I have not. I've heard very mixed reviews about it. Some people swear by it, and others say it's mediocre.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

This is another great recording.
And Knappy's only Tristan.










This one's up there too.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

LeoPiano said:


> I have not. I've heard very mixed reviews about it. Some people swear by it, and others say it's mediocre.


I happened to love both Bohm and Bernstein (there is 45-minute difference in length between two performances!) Try Act II at least to see how it works for you, it's intense! The whole opera under Bernstein is one great orgasm and it deserves to be heard once at least to believe it. If the great marathon of an Act III won't blow your mind - nothing will.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bohm himself complimented Bernstein, saying that he had the guts to perform _Tristan_ as it should be performed. I haven't heard the whole thing, but the prelude at something like 12 minutes is not, I'm certain, quite what Wagner had in mind. The slow tempos no doubt work better in other sections of the score.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Bohm himself complimented Bernstein, saying that he had the guts to perform _Tristan_ as it should be performed. I haven't heard the whole thing, but the prelude at something like 12 minutes is not, I'm certain, quite what Wagner had in mind. The slow tempos no doubt work better in other sections of the score.


Prelude is 14 minutes long. I thought it was crazy before I actually listened to it in the context of the whole work. But you surely have to be in the mood for Bernstein, as the experience is... not for everyday use.


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## LeoPiano (Nov 1, 2020)

Itullian said:


> This is another great recording.
> And Knappy's only Tristan.
> 
> 
> ...


I'm intrigued to listen to the Sawallisch recording for Birgit Nilsson and Wolfgang Windgassen in their primes. How's the sound?


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## LeoPiano (Nov 1, 2020)

Azol said:


> I happened to love both Bohm and Bernstein (there is 45-minute difference in length between two performances!) Try Act II at least to see how it works for you, it's intense! The whole opera under Bernstein is one great orgasm and it deserves to be heard once at least to believe it. If the great marathon of an Act III won't blow your mind - nothing will.


I'll check it out and see what I think!


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

LeoPiano said:


> I'm intrigued to listen to the Sawallisch recording for Birgit Nilsson and Wolfgang Windgassen in their primes. How's the sound?


The sound is very good. Nilsson and Windy are great.
Another huge benefit of this recording is that you can listen to each act uninterrupted.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

LeoPiano said:


> I'm intrigued to listen to the Sawallisch recording for Birgit Nilsson and Wolfgang Windgassen in their primes. How's the sound?


Nilsson was still in her prime in '66! In fact, I heard her at the Met in '72 and the only difference I noticed was that it took her a little longer to warm up in act 1. It was one of her peculiarities, although I'm sure other singers have shared it: she didn't do warmup exercises before performances, the voice became lighter and more flexible in the course of the evening, and the "Liebestod" was splendid (as it is on the Bohm). You had the feeling that she was ready to sing the whole opera again.


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## LeoPiano (Nov 1, 2020)

Woodduck said:


> Nilsson was still in her prime in '66! In fact, I heard her at the Met in '72 and the only difference I noticed was that it took her a little longer to warm up in act 1. It was one of her peculiarities, although I'm sure other singers have shared it: she didn't do warmup exercises before performances, the voice became lighter and more flexible in the course of the evening, and the "Liebestod" was splendid (as it is on the Bohm). You had the feeling that she was ready to sing the whole opera again.


Wow! You are incredibly lucky to hear her perform. And to hear her sing Tristan live! That must have been an experience of a lifetime! I feel like her voice just never faded at all. Are there any recitals of her singing in the 80s or 90s?


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## LeoPiano (Nov 1, 2020)

Itullian said:


> The sound is very good. Nilsson and Windy are great.
> Another huge benefit of this recording is that you can listen to each act uninterrupted.


I'll make sure to check it out! Having one act per CD is always nice.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

The only Wagner opera I've been able to watch/listen to the end.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

LeoPiano said:


> Wow! You are incredibly lucky to hear her perform. And to hear her sing Tristan live! That must have been an experience of a lifetime! I feel like her voice just never faded at all. Are there any recitals of her singing in the 80s or 90s?


The performance of _Tristan_ I attended was not especially good overall, thanks partly to the vocal breakdown of the Tristan, Helge Brilioth, which left him with little to offer in Act 3 but shouting and gesturing. The conducting of Erich Leinsdorf was brisk and unpoetic, and Nilsson herself, though she sang well, seemed a bit weighed down by the lackluster proceedings and didn't act as well as I've seen her do at other times. I was a disappointed 23-year-old Wagner fanatic, but it's a meaningful memory nonetheless.

Nilsson returned to the Met as Elektra in 1980, at age 62, after a hiatus of a few years. She had lost none of her cutting power, but the voice had hardened and become more rigid and steely (but not - a note to all sopranos who fancy themselves Isoldes and Elektras - the least bit wobbly!). I heard the broadcast and eventually the video. It's a strong performance worth watching, even though her voice is not what it had been. It's interesting, though, to observe over the course of the performance that warming-up process I spoke of; by the end of the opera she is sounding lighter and more like her former self. I think she had stopped singing complete Isoldes and Brunnhildes by then, but she continued to perform excerpts from her heavy roles in concert. I'm sure there are examples on YouTube. She was without a doubt a unique physical specimen!


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## LeoPiano (Nov 1, 2020)

Woodduck said:


> The performance of _Tristan_ I attended was not especially good overall, thanks partly to the vocal breakdown of the Tristan, Helge Brilioth, which left him with little to offer in Act 3 but shouting and gesturing. The conducting of Erich Leinsdorf was brisk and unpoetic, and Nilsson herself, though she sang well, seemed a bit weighed down by the lackluster proceedings and didn't act as well as I've seen her do at other times. I was a disappointed 23-year-old Wagner fanatic, but it's a meaningful memory nonetheless.
> 
> Nilsson returned to the Met as Elektra in 1980, at age 62, after a hiatus of a few years. She had lost none of her cutting power, but the voice had hardened and become more rigid and steely (but not - a note to all sopranos who fancy themselves Isoldes and Elektras - the least bit wobbly!). I heard the broadcast and eventually the video. It's a strong performance worth watching, even though her voice is not what it had been. It's interesting, though, to observe over the course of the performance that warming-up process I spoke of; by the end of the opera she is sounding lighter and more like her former self. I think she had stopped singing complete Isoldes and Brunnhildes by then, but she continued to perform excerpts from her heavy roles in concert. I'm sure there are examples on YouTube. She was without a doubt a unique physical specimen!


It's always disappointing to go to a performance only to have some of the cast or conductor be sub-par. Have you seen Tristan live at other points in your life or is that the only time?

That is truly incredible that Nilsson could hit the notes and not be wobbly (even though her tone was rigid). She truly is a special singer.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

That was my only live _Tristan. _I did see Nilsson once more at the Met, in Gotterdammerung - 1972 also, I believe, with a friend who lived in Manhattan and got us tickets. Oddly, I remember little about the performance. I have the impression, based on my own two experiences and some videos I've seen, that Wagner at the Met in those days could be a bit stodgy. Their sets of _Tristan_ and the _Ring_ were designed by Gunther Schneider-Siemssen, and although impressive in a monumental sort of way they could give the feeling of dwarfing whatever was happening onstage. _Tristan_ is a big score, yet its drama is essentially private and intimate, and everything in a production should be laser-focused on the emotions of the characters. A couple of fine actors with spotlights on their faces is worth more in such a work than miles of gorgeous scenery and people just standing far apart on a huge stage, singing at the conductor as too many opera singers do. I'd love to see a great film of _Tristan_ - or any other Wagner opera - where you can get both superb, close-up acting _and_ scenic atmosphere. But I've dreamt of that for half a century and still have heard no rumors of its imminent appearance. No money in it, I guess.


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## LeoPiano (Nov 1, 2020)

Woodduck said:


> That was my only live _Tristan. _I did see Nilsson once more at the Met, in Gotterdammerung - 1972 also, I believe, with a friend who lived in Manhattan and got us tickets. Oddly, I remember little about the performance. I have the impression, based on my own two experiences and some videos I've seen, that Wagner at the Met in those days could be a bit stodgy. Their sets of _Tristan_ and the _Ring_ were designed by Gunther Schneider-Siemssen, and although impressive in a monumental sort of way they could give the feeling of dwarfing whatever was happening onstage. _Tristan_ is a big score, yet its drama is essentially private and intimate, and everything in a production should be laser-focused on the emotions of the characters. A couple of fine actors with spotlights on their faces is worth more in such a work than miles of gorgeous scenery and people just standing far apart on a huge stage, singing at the conductor as too many opera singers do. I'd love to see a great film of _Tristan_ - or any other Wagner opera - where you can get both superb, close-up acting _and_ scenic atmosphere. But I've dreamt of that for half a century and still have heard no rumors of its imminent appearance. No money in it, I guess.


That's my issue with DVDs of operas in general. I'm always fussing about the scenery or the acting so I'm not focusing on the music, which really matters. I usually just listen to a CD, close my eyes, and imagine the action as how I want it to be.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

LeoPiano said:


> That's my issue with DVDs of operas in general. I'm always fussing about the scenery or the acting so I'm not focusing on the music, which really matters. I usually just listen to a CD, close my eyes, and imagine the action as how I want it to be.


A man after my own heart. The best Wagner productions I can imagine are the ones I literally imagine, letting some of the most imaginative, evocative music ever written do its work on my mind.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

It is an opera I have gone through phases of listening over and over to . The thematic melodies are so complex and interwoven and so changeable. I was very very very lucky to see it live with a young Jane Eaglen and Ben Heppner. Jane was beautifully and flatteringly costumed and Heppner made her look smaller. Spectacular singing and acting. Here are Speight Jenkins recollections of that production:http://seattleopera50.com/?text=speights-wagner-memories-98-tristan-und-isolde. I have never understood people who said Eaglen was underpowered. Her voice was perfectly enormous and very beautiful. I wish I could have heard Stignani sing Brangaene's Warning. It is my favorite part of Tristan. I have heard many versions. I love Waltraud Meier's DVD. For listening I like Flagstad late and early and Varnay. Nilsson is the queen of the curse.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> It is an opera I have gone through phases of listening over and over to . The thematic melodies are so complex and interwoven and so changeable. I was very very very lucky to see it live with a young Jane Eaglen and Ben Heppner. Jane was beautifully and flatteringly costumed and Heppner made her look smaller. Spectacular singing and acting. Here are Speight Jenkins recollections of that production:http://seattleopera50.com/?text=speights-wagner-memories-98-tristan-und-isolde. I have never understood people who said Eaglen was underpowered. Her voice was perfectly enormous and very beautiful. I wish I could have heard Stignani sing Brangaene's Warning. It is my favorite part of Tristan. I have heard many versions. I love Waltraud Meier's DVD. For listening I like Flagstad late and early and Varnay. Nilsson is the queen of the curse.


That's a great account by Jenkins (but white print on black is a horror for my aging eyes). It seems clear that it was a more satisfying production than the later one with Eaglen and Heppner at the Met, which is static and dull and makes the singers look like hippopotami (though I suspect they actually did).

I remember distinctly Conrad L. Osborne's remark, about Nilsson on the 1966 Bohm _Tristan,_ that she delivered the curse with "such cold concentration and power that Tristan's appearance seems an act of considerable courage." I think that that recording is one of the truest and best representations we have of her.

P.S. I hope you've been faring well in Seattle's monstrous heat wave. In all my years there the temperature never reached 100 degrees.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> That's a great account by Jenkins (but white print on black is a horror for my aging eyes). It seems clear that it was a more satisfying production than the later one with Eaglen and Heppner at the Met, which is static and dull and makes the singers look like hippopotami (though I suspect they actually did).
> 
> I remember distinctly Conrad L. Osborne's remark, about Nilsson on the 1966 Bohm _Tristan,_ that she delivered the curse with "such cold concentration and power that Tristan's appearance seems an act of considerable courage." I think that that recording is one of the truest and best representations we have of her.
> 
> P.S. I hope you've been faring well in Seattle's monstrous heat wave. In all my years there the temperature never reached 100 degrees.


Thanks for your comments. Even at 105 degrees my apt was 20 degrees cooler. So lucky I didn't face west. The shade felt good. Nothing like 90 degrees in Jackson, MS in my youth. Very dry heat here.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Even here In Scotland we are getting some high temperatures. I was bowling this evening for two and a half hours in about 25 degrees and I’m knackered. Lawn green not ten pin btw. Stay safe everyone. I see there have been a number of deaths in Canada due to the heat and I know Seattle is up near the border. My mother in law was born there.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Nothing hits me in the gut quite like those opening chords of act 3.
I have to physically prepare myself to hear them.
And yet, i love the power of them.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Itullian said:


> Nothing hits me in the gut quite like those opening chords of act 3.
> I have to physically prepare myself to hear them.
> And yet, i love the power of them.


It's interesting that each act of _Tristan_ begins with a powerful and evocative chord: Act 1 with the famously ambiguous and inquiring "Tristan chord," Act 2 with the dissonance representing the harsh world of day, which magically dissolves into the soft harmonies of night; and Act 3 with the stark pain and anguish of Tristan languishing in grim, gray Kareol. Note also Wagner's symphonic/dramatic mind at work: the rising four-note motif at the start of Act 3 is a simple, yet radical transformation of the opening motif of act 1. The opening motif of Act 2 also contains three of the four rising scale notes, but the stark drop of a fifth that precedes them is, like the hostile day, a barrier to the lovers' bliss that returns again and again throughout the opera.

Wagner seems to have attached a special significance to that abrupt drop of a fifth. Followed by two or three rising scale steps, it's a motif that occurs again and again in several of his operas. We hear it in Lohengrin's warning to Elsa never to ask who he is; we hear it in the music of the Gibichungs in _Gotterdammerung,_ at whose hands Siegfried meets his death; and it sounds at the center of the melody that begins _Parsifal,_ where the serene bliss of the opening, pure major triad turns downward into the minor. In all these instances the motif undergoes various transformations, and in every case it's associated with opposition, frustration, suffering, or danger.


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## LeoPiano (Nov 1, 2020)

I'm reviving this thread because I wanted to share an experience I had today when listening to Tristan und Isolde. I finally received Furtwangler's recording of Tristan und Isolde in the mail yesterday (I bought a good used copy of the "Great Recordings of the Century" edition which comes with a complete libretto) and listened to act 1 that evening. I was amazed at the warmth of the sound that comes from the speakers compared to the headphones that I had used before, but act 2 was a whole other experience. I listened to act 2 today, and I was blown away. I was amazed at Furtwangler's act 2 before this, but when listening to it today with nice speakers, the love duet truly overwhelmed me. The most incredible part of this experience was following along with the libretto. I had never done this before, and it really made me more connected to the music because now I know exactly what they are saying during every note (a touching moment in act 1 was when Isolde was describing how when healing Tristan, she could not bring herself to kill him, and during this section, the "love theme" from the prelude was played). This was true in the love duet with all of the symbolism of day and night, but even more so in King Marke's monologue. Before this, I thought that King Marke's monologue was too drawn out and didn't benefit the development of the story (I preferred Bohm's recording in this part because it moves along quickly), but after reading the libretto, I couldn't imagine act 2 without it. When I listened to his monologue before, I was moved by some of the parts in this section, but after knowing what he is actually singing about on each note, this was the first time I was tearing up. Now, on to act 3...


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I think Brangaene has some of the most haunting music in the opera. I love her music after Isolde's Curse. I wished I could have heard Stignani in the role. I just posted a video talk about her on Youtube where I imitate her in an Italian accent. I haven't heard Ludwig but I bet she was amazing. There is no YouTube of Maureen Forrester in the role but I bet Brangaene's Warning is marvelous with her doing it. There was a time when I played the Warning over and over and it made me cry every time!!! Alessandra Marc does it really well as an isolated piece with the Seattle Symphony. Not a mezzo but the middle of her voice was very rich.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)




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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Itullian said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWLp7lBomW8


5:46 a nice *C*omi*C* relief


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Guest said:


> For most opera seeing a stage production is a help for me. For T&I it is a hinderance. Nothing happens. I seem to recall a review of a Metropolitan Opera performance which characterized the two leads as resembling two dirigible competing for the same mooring.


This is hilarious, and I immediately know exactly which production he's talking about. 😂

Yes, it was an exceedingly odd choice by Wagner to place all of the actual plot of the Tristan legend into having preceded the events of the opera, and show instead the static babble of two lovers with a predilection for philosophizing, but I find the more you indulge Wagner, the more he indulges you.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Couchie said:


> This is hilarious, and I immediately know exactly which production he's talking about. 😂
> 
> Yes, it was an exceedingly odd choice by Wagner to place all of the actual plot of the Tristan legend into having preceded the events of the opera, and show instead the static babble of two lovers with a predilection for philosophizing, but I find the more you indulge Wagner, the more he indulges you.


It is odd, isn't it? Like no other opera. Hardly anyone does anything most of the time, while the music fills the nearly empty stage. I think this makes the acting especially critical; the characters can do a great deal to reveal their intimate feelings, reacting to each other, moving around, touching, expressing themselves with face and body as well as voice. Stagings need to laser-focus on them and avoid "monumental" sets such as we've seen at the Met and probably oher large houses, witth people who supposedly love each other standing twenty feet apart and singing to the audience. We need a movie!


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## OffPitchNeb (Jun 6, 2016)

Here is Salvador Dali's take on Tristan und Isolde. I think Dali could have created some interesting staging for this opera.


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