# Literature and Art History Corner



## NishmatHaChalil (Apr 17, 2017)

Hello, everyone. I have created this thread for me and others to share periodical thoughts about literature, art history and other related topics that may interest us, but which do not necessarily focus on music. If others would like to share their own thoughts, or discuss those shared by others, feel free to join the thread :tiphat:


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Now here's an art history thought for today. I wasn't the biggest Caravaggio fan (I'd acknowledge his greatness & importance but feel little personal connection) until I saw his "Seven Works of Mercy" - now this one made an impact! I guess I like when there's more figures and a nifty composition... and the "spiral" of figures here is breathtaking!


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Suggestion: such a thread would do very well as a new category in Groups. There, it won't disappear over the horizon (or disappear as quickly). Just a thought.


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## NishmatHaChalil (Apr 17, 2017)

Strange Magic said:


> Suggestion: such a thread would do very well as a new category in Groups. There, it won't disappear over the horizon (or disappear as quickly). Just a thought.


Thank you for the suggestion! I did not know of that space when I joined, so I did not even think of using it. I will consider moving the discussions there in the future.



NishmatHaChalil said:


> That's probably true as far as poetry goes (...)


Actually, I'm going to take back my claims about Italian Romanticism and revise my thesis. Many writers aligned with the Risorgimento tended to prefer happy resolutions, but they failed to gather as much force in poetry as their darker peers, Foscolo and Leopardi. Even so, while Leopardi was ultimately dark, Foscolo, also an elegiac poet, like Shelley, believed in human transcendence and the revival of civilization. The distance from the golden age of Italian poetry may have been a factor in the greater development of somber styles, as may have been Italy's economic decline and its lack of power against the military campaigns of Napoleon and the political control of the Habsburgs in Northern Italy (as perceived by Italian nationalists).

However, while Italy probably did not have an exception as remarkable as Hugo, I was probably unfair in depicting the whole movement as dark. Italy's greatest novelist, Manzoni, was actually a very distinguished exception. His work has many tragic undertones, but, like has been usually observed by Italian commentators, his fatalistic faith in the victory of good makes "I promessi sposi" the closest equivalent to a modern Commedia. Since I read Italian poetry much more than prose, I did not think of him at first.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

NishmatHaChalil said:


> Thank you for the suggestion! I did not know of that space when I joined, so I did not even think of using it. I will consider moving the discussions there in the future.
> 
> Actually, I'm going to take back my claims about Italian Romanticism and revise my thesis. Many writers aligned with the Risorgimento tended to prefer happy resolutions, but they failed to gather as much force in poetry as their darker peers, Foscolo and Leopardi. Even so, while Leopardi was ultimately dark, Foscolo, also an elegiac poet, like Shelley, believed in human transcendence and the revival of civilization. The distance from the golden age of Italian poetry may have been a factor in the greater development of somber styles, as may have been Italy's economic decline and its lack of power against the military campaigns of Napoleon and the Habsburg.
> 
> However, while Italy probably did not have an exception as remarkable as Hugo, I was probably unfair in depicting the whole movement as dark. Italy's greatest novelist, Manzoni, was actually a very distinguished exception. His work has many tragic undertones, but, like has been usually observed by Italian commentators, his fatalistic faith in the victory of good makes "I promessi sposi" the closest equivalent to a modern Commedia. Since I read Italian poetry much more than prose, I did not think of him at first.


Thanks for your interesting thoughts on Italian literary movements. I'm wondering how D'Annunzio fits into all of this - I love his Wagner-inspired novel _Il fuoco_ and I'm curious as to where you would classify this work (and his output in general).

Would you consider D'Annunzio a late Romantic who puts a decadent spin on the Romantic tradition associated with Leopardi? Or does D'Annunzio strike you more as a modernist/expressionist, with his emphasis on surrealism and altered states of consciousness? Some of his work actually seems to look back to much older Italian traditions, such as the extravagant metaphors of the Petrarchan style. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated!


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Now here's an art history thought for today. I wasn't the biggest Caravaggio fan (I'd acknowledge his greatness & importance but feel little personal connection) until I saw his "Seven Works of Mercy" - now this one made an impact!

I have long recognized Caravaggio's genius... but also felt it rarely touched me on a personal level. The exceptions have been the touching _Death of the Virgin_...










... and the equally moving _Deposition_...










Seeing the latter painting in person was an illuminating... if not transcendent experience.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Thank you for the Caravaggio images, S.L.G.O.! I hadn't seen the _Death of the Virgin_ before. Magnificent stillness. The _Deposition_ I've seen (not in person though), and it's one of my favourites. Is it inspired by Titian? Such gravity, and I mean physical gravity. Caravaggio often seems to have that. Physical gravity. Maybe that's why I prefer his more vertical images to the more horizontal ones!


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## Guest (May 16, 2017)

I've always loved Caravaggio, especially "The Lute Player." I was thrilled to see the original many years ago in NY at The Met. I have a nice reproduction on it--a faux oil on canvas!


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## NishmatHaChalil (Apr 17, 2017)

I’m sorry, everyone (especially MM and Bettina, but also SaintLuke’s Guild and Xaltotun). I was overworked these past two weeks due to two important exams scheduled to this past weekend, and I’m only starting to find some free time now. I will share some of my thoughts on your comments as soon as I can, probably all or most of them later today. Thank you very much for your interest and for your posts!


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

SLGO's "seeing *Caravaggio* in person" bangs a gong.

*David with the Head of Goliath* (c1610 version), Galleria Borghese.


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## SarahNorthman (Nov 19, 2014)

Ah a thread after my own heart. I have always been fascinated at how the arts (music and drawing, painting, sculpture.....) and literature have always been, and will always be so intimately linked.


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## Guest (May 25, 2017)

I haven't seen any discussion of literature yet. When I taught AP English Lit to seniors, my two favorite classic novels were _Crime and Punishment_ and _Heart of Darkness_. I loved the psychological insights that both authors explored. Your thoughts?


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## SarahNorthman (Nov 19, 2014)

So, I wonder, in any English or literature classes or just in your free time what are some of your favorite reads you never thought you would like. For me, I think I came across Bartleby the Scrivener this past semester and I surprisingly fell in love with it. I haven't read much from Melville aside from Moby Dick and it was surprising to learn that the book pretty much tanked his career but it's a fantastic story! On my own time I read Count of Monte Cristo the summer before I started high school. All those years ago. It seems that as I get older I am starting to like those stories with that slow burn to the climax of the story. 


What about you guys?


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## Guest (May 26, 2017)

A student recommended _Rebecca_ by Daphne du Maurier. I fell in love with the writing, and even though it was more romantic than I normally enjoy, it was a most gripping novel.

"Bartleby the Scrivener" is such a sad story--what a study of loneliness. Surprisingly, most of my students really enjoyed it.


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## SarahNorthman (Nov 19, 2014)

Kontrapunctus said:


> A student recommended _Rebecca_ by Daphne du Maurier. I fell in love with the writing, and even though it was more romantic than I normally enjoy, it was a most gripping novel.
> 
> "Bartleby the Scrivener" is such a sad story--what a study of loneliness. Surprisingly, most of my students really enjoyed it.


I'll have to check out Rebecca. I'm always looking for new stories to read.

As for Bartleby, it is a sad story. I honestly feel the appeal comes from the character of Bartleby himself. He certainly is a lonely character, but he is also rebellious. I think that rebelliousness is what appeals to the kids of today. It is somewhat entertaining to see the exasperation of the lawyer who deals with Bartleby. I will say, the intrigue surrounding Bartleby is another hook for people. You want to know more about this odd fellow, and you read on in hopes you'll get even the smallest grain of information on him. And in the end, all you get is a rumor about him. You never find out anything on him. Boy, I would love if Melville made a sister story from Bartleby's POV. It would be fascinating, though would probably ruin the point of the story in general.


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## Guest (May 26, 2017)

SarahNorthman said:


> Boy, I would love if Melville made a sister story from Bartleby's POV. It would be fascinating, though would probably ruin the point of the story in general.


"I prefer not."


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## SarahNorthman (Nov 19, 2014)

Kontrapunctus said:


> "I prefer not."


Ahahahahaha! I think most people feel that way.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Lately I've been thinking about Dante.

I've never read the Commedia in whole, just Inferno and halfway of Purgatorio, which is stupid and lazy from my part. Dante is... different. I think, maybe, different from anything else. "Literature" is sometimes defined as the body of non-sacred texts. This gives literature a certain worldliness from the beginning, and it's a fact: since sacred texts already defined the transcendent, it was the task of literature to deal with the tangible. When authors wish to point their belief in the transcendent, they usually do so by the way of the double negative, depicting the material world as wanting. 

But Dante isn't like that at all. Clearly, he isn't writing a sacred text, literally or metaphorically; he's writing a text that depicts human emotions, human frailties, and an individual's point of view. So he's writing literature. But at the same time, he immerses himself in the transcendent; he's absolutely not afraid of it, nor is he doubting his own ability of describing something so utterly beyond human perspective. His book is literature through and through; it never becomes a paraphrase of sacred texts, and always retains his own voice. He stays himself, always remains Dante; yet he reveals a magnificent world beyond ours that he absolutely believes in, and more: a world that he sees is absolutely necessary for our own material world to function. Necessary and sufficient. Dante (the protagonist) achieves both wisdom and happiness in this life. This is the greatest wonder. Dante (the protagonist) doesn't die but is, I must presume, returned to Italy after confronting God directly in Paradisio - now both wise and happy, AND alive. He learns that Heaven and Hell are not something distant, but rather something you are in touch with every day, through your own virtuousness and sinfulness. 

Thus it seems to me, that without taking refuge in the celestial realms, Dante (the author) blesses our everyday existence with radiant meaning. With his absolute confidence, he paints good and evil with bright, primary colours. But with his merciful heart, he doesn't divide the world in goats and lambs, but understands the sinner and the pagan, giving them appropriate places in the shades of gray of reality. He might be judgemental and a moralist, but he is inclusive and kind. In his universe, human beings are just that: human beings, not specimens carrying labels. Dante pities the human condition, like any author worth his salt, but there's more: more than anything he believes in the capacity of learning, accumulating wisdom. That's something that the humanist and the Christian share. He has internalized the core story in Christianity - "you can always change" - and yet his Christianity does not take anything away from his humanism. Like Michelangelo, Dante takes Christianity and, without warping it, makes it his own. The church fathers certainly wouldn't have approved Lucifer punishing Brutus and Cassius alongside Judas, but when Dante tells it, it makes complete sense. St. Augustine condemned the old classical world to Hell; Dante redeems it by his merciful gaze that looks at the deeper truth beneath the surface. Whether the souls of "virtuous pagans" dwelling in Limbo, or figures and monsters of classical antiquity now relocated to Hell, doing the work of God, these once outsiders are now included in the holistic system. And that all without mentioning the elevated role of Virgil in the text.

I have to read the book from start to finish, yes. And I have a feeling that there are some serious insights to be found there. Already now I'm feeling that everyone else, compared to him, is either a sinner or a saint with varying amounts of pretension in also being the other. Only Dante truly is both, I feel.


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## SarahNorthman (Nov 19, 2014)

Xaltotun said:


> Lately I've been thinking about Dante.
> 
> I've never read the Commedia in whole, just Inferno and halfway of Purgatorio, which is stupid and lazy from my part. Dante is... different. I think, maybe, different from anything else. "Literature" is sometimes defined as the body of non-sacred texts. This gives literature a certain worldliness from the beginning, and it's a fact: since sacred texts already defined the transcendent, it was the task of literature to deal with the tangible. When authors wish to point their belief in the transcendent, they usually do so by the way of the double negative, depicting the material world as wanting.
> 
> ...


I personally prescribe to the definition of literature as writings that are aimed at teaching or increasing the knowledge of the reader. I love Dante by the way. I should reread it sometime soon. Your analysis is very insightful and I will think on it as I read the book again.


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

Xaltotun said:


> With his absolute confidence, he paints good and evil with bright, primary colours. But with his merciful heart, he doesn't divide the world in goats and lambs, but understands the sinner and the pagan, giving them appropriate places in the shades of gray of reality. He might be judgemental and a moralist, but he is inclusive and kind.


Dante is many things. Merciful, inclusive, and kind he is not. (Unless you agree that ********* should literally burn forever, suicides be hurt and humiliated forever, etc.)


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Magnum Miserium said:


> Dante is many things. Merciful, inclusive, and kind he is not. (Unless you agree that ********* should literally burn forever, suicides be hurt and humiliated forever, etc.)


I wasn't talking about the perspective of a liberal 21st century westerner, and really, we shouldn't judge people of the past by our own criteria (even if we should not completely forget our own criteria, either). I think Dante is extremely merciful, inclusive and kind from the perspective of his own time (and many other times, too!), so much even, that these traits echo all the way through our own time, even if it would be written differently in our own day and age (and of course it would).


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Xaltotun said:


> I wasn't talking about the perspective of a liberal 21st century westerner, and really, we shouldn't judge people of the past by our own criteria (even if we should not completely forget our own criteria, either). *I think Dante is extremely merciful, inclusive and kind *from the perspective of his own time (and many other times, too!), so much even, that these traits echo all the way through our own time, even if it would be written differently in our own day and age (and of course it would).


I agree with you. Dante shows a great deal of compassion for the souls who are being tormented in Hell. For example, when he sees the hideous torments that Francesca da Rimini has to endure, he faints in horror, overcome by empathy for her unimaginable suffering. I would even say that Dante disapproved of the harsh punishments meted out by God (or Satan - or whoever is responsible for assigning punishments). Of course, Dante couldn't say this directly because it would have been considered blasphemous to criticize God. But I think the criticism of God's harsh system is there between the lines of Dante's text.


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

Xaltotun said:


> I wasn't talking about the perspective of a liberal 21st century westerner,


You were talking FROM that perspective, without qualification, so yes, you were.



> and really, we shouldn't judge people of the past by our own criteria (even if we should not completely forget our own criteria, either). I think Dante is extremely merciful, inclusive and kind from the perspective of his own time (and many other times, too!), so much even, that these traits echo all the way through our own time, even if it would be written differently in our own day and age (and of course it would).


He isn't, he just goes easy on the virtuous pagans because he likes them.



Bettina said:


> I agree with you. Dante shows a great deal of compassion for the souls who are being tormented in Hell. For example, when he sees the hideous torments that Francesca da Rimini has to endure, he faints in horror, overcome by empathy for her unimaginable suffering.


The point of that passage is that "Dante" ("Dante" the author's self-representation, not Dante the author) is weak, and needs to learn to "guarda e passa" with proper indifference, which he subsequently does.



> I would even say that Dante disapproved of the harsh punishments meted out by God (or Satan - or whoever is responsible for assigning punishments). Of course, Dante couldn't say this directly because it would have been considered blasphemous to criticize God. But I think the criticism of God's harsh system is there between the lines of Dante's text.


It really isn't. People today just want to think it is, because they want to to be able to approve of Dante. (And Dante is absolutely clear that it's God doing the punishing.)


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