# Applauding between movements in Messiah or other multi-movement works



## iloveChopin (Nov 24, 2013)

I'm old fashioned. I think you should hold your applause till the whole piece is *OVER*! That includes symphonies and also multiple-movement works such as Messiah. It drives me completely off the reservation when people clap after the third movement of Tchaikovsky's Pathetique Symphony, for example. Sure, it's an exciting movement that practically screams "clap now!" when it ends, but in that piece in particular, it seems to me, if you do applaud, you admit that you haven't a clue why he ordered the movements the way he did or why he named the entire work Pathetique.

I'm aware not everyone agrees.

But my message today basically is about audience behavior at performances of Messiah! [So why start with a harangue about Tchaikovsky's 6? Eh? :lol:]

I once attended a performance of Messiah at which the audience applauded after every single movement! The overture, "comfort ye my people", and on and on and on till the final Amen!

Was this as "bush league" to any of you as it was to me? Or was it ok?


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## LHB (Nov 1, 2015)

I think for the Messiah, applause after each of the three major parts ended would be appropriate, but for something as long as the Messiah, applauding after every little chorus, recitative, and aria would get annoying really quickly. The only occasion I can think of when clapping between movements would be appropriate is after the massive 30 minute first movement of Alkan's Solo Concerto.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

iloveChopin said:


> I'm old fashioned. I think you should hold your applause till the whole piece is *OVER*!


I don't think that's an old-fashioned idea. Audiences were more likely to applaud between movements in the olden days (and make noise *during* works).


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Do whatever is considered appropriate by the group, and ignore it if it bothers you. It's just people clapping. Either way it doesn't really matter at all. The music is what's important.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

As far back as I can remember, it has been considered improper to clap between movements. IMO, since classical music does not have the same level of popularity as it did decades ago, the audiences are not as 'sophisticated' as they used to be. And since orchestras need all the support they can get just to survive these days, no one is going to instruct audiences on etiquette.

In addition to clapping between movements, IMO you can add the shouting of 'Bravo' etc. as some sort of knee-jerk reaction rather than for a particularly outstanding performance. And then there is people checking their cellphones. I'm afraid I just don't have much patience for all this and so, I rarely attend live performances anymore.

While I'm on my little rant. Has anyone noticed how it has come to the point that when a singer in the category of Josh Groban sings to a live audience (a song such as Over The Rainbow as he did recently), the audience not only claps at the beginning (which is fine), but then after the musical intro, claps when the well-known melody starts, and then claps when Groban hits a high note. It just destroys the performance for me- I prefer to hear the artist not the audience.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Just wait till the end, very rude to do otherwise.

One does not applaud between the parts in the Verdi Requiem also.:tiphat:


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

It is my understanding that, at one time and, perhaps, in some countries, it was/is customary to applaud after each movement. When in Rome (do as the Romans), I suppose, but I think it is better to wait for the whole piece to end before applauding.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I've read that there was a time when not only would the audience applaud between movements, they might boo, hiss, and throw rotten vegetables as well. Violinists might play barnyard animal imitations between the movements of a concerto to the delight of the audience. Entrenched interests might turn out to disrupt a performance through non-stop catcalls, as happened to some of Mozart's works in Paris. Pianists (Liszt being an example) might feign fainting after emotional works to be borne offstage, carried by admirers.

So much duller today, with concerts more resembling wakes than celebrations.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> I've read that there was a time when not only would the audience applaud between movements, they might boo, hiss, and throw rotten vegetables as well. Violinists might play barnyard animal imitations between the movements of a concerto to the delight of the audience. Entrenched interests might turn out to disrupt a performance through non-stop catcalls, as happened to some of Mozart's works in Paris. Pianists (Liszt being an example) might feign fainting after emotional works to be borne offstage, carried by admirers.
> 
> So much duller today, with concerts more resembling wakes than celebrations.


Yes, we are boring clods now. I think a pianist fainting after a Boulez sonata and being carried out by admiring Boulezians would make contemporary classical music much more entertaining.

Or maybe fainting before the sonata...


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> Or maybe fainting before the sonata...


 Bad, bad, bad boy! But still, the barnyard imitations might work. "Now I'm going to do a total serialist chicken..."


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Bad, bad, bad boy! But still, the barnyard imitations might work. "Now I'm going to do a total serialist chicken..."


Oh God. Oh God. Help me. I've fallen and I cant get up.

Is there a way to "like" something, say, ten times?


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Woodduck said:


> Oh God. Oh God. Help me. I've fallen and I cant get up.


Don't say that! We can't tell whether or not you're serious


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## Metairie Road (Apr 30, 2014)

Speaking from an opera perspective: Applauding whenever one is moved to do so is expected. Opera singers are a narcissistic bunch and thrive on audience response at all times. The audience at a live opera are as much a part of the performance as are the performers on stage.

But opera lovers are savages anyway, so what can you expect.

I'd be bringing this attitude to a symphonic concert. I'd just have to tolerate the dirty looks from the other people in the audience when I burst into rapturous applase after the first movement.

Metairie Road


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Lukecash12 said:


> Do whatever is considered appropriate by the group, and ignore it if it bothers you. It's just people clapping. Either way it doesn't really matter at all. The music is what's important.


...which is why such clapping is deplorable. Ignoring it is easier said than done - there's no "mute" button one can press. What there *is*, in the best performances at any rate, is a coherence in the music and a tension in the occasion which a burst of clapping will destroy.


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## Dawood (Oct 11, 2015)

I've always wondered what a 'classic music' gig would be like if it was like a 'popular' music concert - if we all wooped between movements or even better *during* the music - cheering on the violinist has they tackled a particularly invigorating passage - cheered when the opening of the Rite of Spring - or Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue materalised. That's the thing though art music gigs are more programmed - there's a bit of spontaneity to a rock concert - will they play their one and only chart hit? Will they? Will they?

Yeah of course they will. Yay! Candles/lighters/mobile phones aloft...

There's a Jordi Savall concert where - I think it's for Rameau's music - the audience are encouraged to clap with the rhythm in time with the tune. It's all a bit Last Night at the Proms - which I've always found faintly embarrassing.


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## Dawood (Oct 11, 2015)

Also just to say, most, if not all the gigs I go to the average age of the audience is about 70 - which I'm sure affects participation and reaction strategies...


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## Rhombic (Oct 28, 2013)

Most symphonies are not structured in a random way and their movements are not interchangeable with those of other symphonies (early Classical period symphonies tend to be the exception)... especially for the mid Romanticism onwards, clapping between movements is failing to understand what actually is going on. Take Mahler, for example. Take Dvorák's Serenada for Wind Instruments (and some strings), where the original theme is presented again later in the work. Take Myaskovsky's 6th... which, despite being massive, has a huge recursive construction with references to every single previous movement.

Clapping between movements in this sort of "architectural" displays is completely beyond justifiable (note: I did not say acceptable, that is a totally different point)... it is, and should be considered as, clapping after the exposition of the first and second themes of each movement of Mozart's symphonies: the movement in the Classical period tended to be a much more closed form, while particularly in the 20th century a movement is as much of an external structure as it is of an internal one, with if not a performing "attacca" specified, certainly a conceptual one. If the music, motives, themes or anything indeed carries on to the next movement, there is absolutely no reason to clap between movements.

Now, as for Haydn's early works where the movements are independent modules sorted out rather by chance instead of following a particular reasoning behind it... that is much more complicated to answer. The tonal centres are indeed carried along through the symphony, but the thematic or formal content is not, as opposed to mostly any post-1840s composer.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Tales from the olden days of Classical Music audiences:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/08/arts/music/08audi.html?_r=0

Choice anecdote:

_Audience participation was taken for granted in the 1840s. The pianist Alexander Dreyschock was criticized for playing "so loud that it made it difficult for the ladies to talk," Mr. Hamilton writes. 
_
I'm not saying I want to go back to these times, but at least we should know how things were.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

The _Daily Telegraph_'s critic described the premiere of Elgar's 1st symphony in 1908:
"After the extremely beautiful and poignantly expressive slow movement the composer was called on to the platform to bow several times by a crowd that was almost beside itself with enthusiasm."

Elgar's friend Jaeger (Nimrod to you and me), writing about the first London performance a few days later, said:
"After the first movement E. E. was called out; again, several times, after the third..."

_That's_ the "old-fashioned" attitude.

I imagine that if Handel encountered an audience that remained silent throughout _Messiah_ he'd have had a few choice words for them.


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

Back in the day audiences were more active than today's polite listeners. The crowd famously demanded a repeat of the 2nd movement of Beethoven's Ninth, for example.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

I don't buy the premise that behavior in the 19th century justifies that in the 21st century when it comes to the manner of audience participation. In the 1800s, classical music was to audiences what popular music is to audiences today. There were far fewer opportunities for people to be entertained and to 'let loose' in those days when living was particularly hard and particularly short. Also, what occurred during classical music performances in those days was (as I understand it) similar to what occurred during plays (such as Shakespearean) in centuries past.

It's apparent that after the onset of the 20th century, audience sophistication progressed when it came to classical music. One reason may have been the development of recordings such that people, having the ability to listen to works repeatedly, became far more familiar with classical works. Also, perhaps people found classical performances as a way to escape from the increasing cacophony of modern life. That being so, it is easy to understand that people would increasingly want to appreciate classical performances without distractions. In any event, the behavior _did_ change and a very distinct etiquette developed against clapping between movements.

To me, the important point is that this etiquette developed because audiences 'knew' classical music and savored the experience of a live performance. IMO, the present behavior of clapping between movements derives from increasingly relative ignorance of classical music.


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## rrudolph (Sep 15, 2011)

As a performer, I'm grateful any time an audience shows appreciation. That said, however, Messiah is plenty long already without applause between every movement! (I should add that I've never heard an audience do that--usually the applause comes at the end of each of the three major parts)


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

Here is the problem I have with not applauding between movements in longer pieces. There will almost always be audience noise instead of silence. People will cough, shuffle, or make other sounds as they wait for the next part of the music to start. While I am thankful that many try to remain silent during the music and save the sounds for when it is not playing, it is just as much a jarring reminder of the real world as clapping would be. I would rather hear clapping between movements than coughing. 

I am also in favor of spontaneous reactions of joy during concerts. For example, I would not be put out by someone saying "Oh yeah" after the first eight notes of Beethoven's Fifth. It is about the performers and not the audience at concerts, but if I wanted no reminders of other people at a concert, I would just be listening to the CD at home.


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## Gouldanian (Nov 19, 2015)

The British were very notorious for clapping, hissing or throwing things during performances. It was a sign of whether or not they liked the work. I read somewhere that Handel was disturbed by this when he moved to London.

Also, I recall reading that the king of England rose to his feet in the middle of Handel's ''Hallelujah'' (Messiah) to clap, so the whole orchestra had to rise as well while still performing. It must have been a special scene.

Personally, I'm against it. Wait till the end.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

gardibolt said:


> Back in the day audiences were more active than today's polite listeners. The crowd famously demanded a repeat of the 2nd movement of Beethoven's Ninth, for example.


I heard this about the 7th, too.

Makes sense - they didn't get to hear pieces very often before recordings!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

When Beethoven's Horn Sonata was premiered by Beethoven and Punto, the audience demanded a complete repeat. They got it. From a review: "The sonata pleased so much that, in spite of the new theatre regulations, which forbid da capo and loud applause in the Court theatre, the virtuosos were nevertheless moved by loud applause to start from the top and repeat the work after they had finished." (AMZ, 1800)


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Just can't help smiling at these stories of audiences expressing their appreciation at the premieres of major works by applauding between movements and during movements, having movements encored, calling the composer up to take a bow, etc.

Good ammunition for the next time someone says that new music was always misunderstood in its time... 

Sorry for the diversion. Carry on.

:tiphat:


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

I was at a performance by a European pianist, who I don't think spoke English very well, a few years ago--small crowd, kind of a salon setting, maybe 30 people. Unfortunately, it was somewhat disorganized and she played several works without anyone introducing them or any kind of programme being available, so no one knew where to applaud. Finally she played a piece I knew well and I started the applause at the end. The relief in the room was palpable on all sides--the pianist thought she was hated (she was visibly shrinking as the performance went on), while the crowd was mortified at not knowing where to applaud without embarrassing themselves. Better to applaud in the wrong place than to make the performer believe she's bombing and not knowing why.


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## Krummhorn (Feb 18, 2007)

Fortunately, the venue where I perform as the accompanist to Part I of Messiah the audience refrains from any applause until the ending. We do (not to my liking) end with the Hallelujah Chorus in which most of those attending this concert join in with the choir and organ. 

The venue is also in a church, whether or not that makes any difference. We have presented Part I every year since 2008 and I have been the solo organ accompanist - quite the workout from beginning to end. 

I do get incensed when attending other classical concert venues when people applaud between movements ... in most cases the conductor will not acknowledge the applause, and will remain with baton raised and ready for the next movement. 

For my personal organ concerts I always request applause be held until the intermission and then at the end. It doesn't always go that way however. I would rather remain seated at the console and not have to get up and acknowledge the applause after each number.


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## Lyricus (Dec 11, 2015)

I will stand and enthusiastically applaud and whistle and whoop and holler after a performance is complete - I will shout encore with the rest of them. However, I am always visibly annoyed when people around me clap for every little thing in e.g. Nutcracker. Oh, yes, the Arabian dancers were excellent, without a doubt, but I cannot hear the orchestra when the clapping is incessant!


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

bharbeke said:


> It is about the performers and not the audience at concerts, but if I wanted no reminders of other people at a concert, I would just be listening to the CD at home.


The 2nd half of that sentence seems to conflict with the 1st half.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Just can't help smiling at these stories of audiences expressing their appreciation at the premieres of major works by applauding between movements and during movements, having movements encored, calling the composer up to take a bow, etc.
> 
> Good ammunition for the next time someone says that new music was always misunderstood in its time...
> 
> ...


Tell that to J.S. Bach...


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Krummhorn said:


> Fortunately, the venue where I perform as the accompanist to Part I of Messiah the audience refrains from any applause until the ending. We do (not to my liking) end with the Hallelujah Chorus in which most of those attending this concert join in with the choir and organ.
> 
> The venue is also in a church, whether or not that makes any difference. We have presented Part I every year since 2008 and I have been the solo organ accompanist - quite the workout from beginning to end.
> 
> ...


Shoot, I'd be more bothered at not finishing the Messiah than any of the rest!


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

Quoted sentence: 
It is about the performers and not the audience at concerts, but if I wanted no reminders of other people at a concert, I would just be listening to the CD at home.



DaveM said:


> The 2nd half of that sentence seems to conflict with the 1st half.


Allow me to further explain, and maybe that seeming conflict will disappear. By going to a live performance, I am going to see the performers, and they are my emphasis. However, by choosing to attend, I am also choosing everything that comes with live performances: audience reactions, the possibility of major screw-ups or glitches, etc. I could have a pristine performance guaranteed by listening to a recording at home, but the possibility of greatness and the joy of being immersed in the sound at the concert hall make it worth going to the live event. I expect a certain amount of noise and fidgeting around the concert hall as part of having hundreds of people in the same room together. Certainly, there can be magical moments where everyone is in tune with the music, and nothing is audible except the music, but those are not what I expect 100% of the time. If someone is moved to express their appreciation with applause or verbal outburst not at the end of a movement, that is fine with me. It crosses the line into irritation for me when people are being obviously inconsiderate or competing with the performers for attention.

From the Phoenix Symphony FAQ:

"When should I clap?

The seasoned symphony-goer applauds after the end of a piece. This leads to some confusion at times as most pieces have movements which have periods of silence. A hint that may help you decipher a movement from the end of the piece: look at	the conductor's arms, when they go down--there is a good chance the piece is over! If in doubt, cheating by watching your neighbor is perfectly acceptable. Should you find yourself moved to clap in a place that your neighbor does not clap ... do not fret ... the Maestro and orchestra appreciate your enthusiasm!"

I operate under the assumption that anyone showing their appreciation for their performance between movements or during a piece is "moved to clap" at that point. As the "periods of silence" are never silent in live performances, they may as well have some applause to mask the inevitable coughing. I am one of the "seasoned symphony-goers" mentioned, and I do abide by the accepted etiquette. If I hear something great in the early movements, I try to harness all of that goodwill and let it explode out of me after the finale of the piece with sustained applause.


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## Gaspard de la Nuit (Oct 20, 2014)

I don't see the point in not clapping in between movements - there's already a break in between them where musicians re-adjust, make a lot of shuffling noises, turn pages, etc......it's not a practice that does anything for me, and it's pretty much the embodiment of museum culture classical music.


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