# Proposed 20th Century Pianist Bracket



## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

So, I'm a bit bored (I'll admit it) and I've decided to play my own variation on JRFuerst's "bracket" game.

This time, we will take 64 of the greatest C20th pianists. Instead of going the "popular" route, I tried to make my list as objective as possible...ranking not withstanding. Thus, my list is as follows:

1. Sviatoslav Richter

2. Sergei Rachmaninov

3. Vladimir Horowitz

4. Alfred Cortot

5. Artur Rubinstein

6. Artur Schnabel

7. Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli

8. Josef Hofmann

9. Emil Gilels

10. Vladimir Sofronitsky

11. Benno Moiseiwitsch

12. Edwin Fischer

13. Leopold Godowsky

14. Moriz Rosenthal

15. Claudio Arrau

16. Glenn Gould

17. Dinu Lipatti

18. Martha Argerich

19. Wilhelm Kempff

20. Rafael Joseffy

21. Walter Gieseking

22. Josef Lhevinne

23. Maria Yudina

24. Rudolf Serkin

25. Solomon Cutner

26. Ferrucio Busoni

27. Wilhelm Backhaus

28. Samuel Feinberg

29. Marc-Andre Hamelin

30. Georges Cziffra

31. William Kapell

32. Jorge Bolet

33. Dame Myra Hess

34. Vladimir Ashkenazy

35. Alexander Brailowsky

36. Clara Haskil

37. Raoul Pugno

38. Alfred Brendel

39. Harvey Van Cliburn

40. Annie Fischer

41. Ignaz Friedman

42. Maurizio Pollini

43. Vladimir de Pachmann

44. Krystian Zimmerman

45. Henry Neuhaus

46. Ivan Moravec

47. Grigory Sokolov

48. Guiomar Novaes

49. Ignaz Jan Paderewski

50. Lazar Berman

51. Alexander Scriabin

52. Eugene D'Albert

53. Robert Casadesus

54. Radu Lupu

55. Alicia de Larrocha

56. Andras Schiff

57. Geza Anda

58. Shura Cherkassky

59. Rosalyn Tureck

60. Murray Perahia

61. Frederich Gulda

62. Egon Petri

63. Vladimir de Pachmann

64. Evgeni Kissin

Now I will take suggestions. Move one out, put one in? I'll consider it.

One thing though... ordering is really hard to do. You can give me a suggestion, but I probably won't be too concerned. The reason is... no one will be satisfied with one order. Don't swoon because Gilels, your favorite pianist is in 9th or Arrau in 15th. Heck, it was hard to order them to 20, even to 30, 40, the whole thing DARN IT!

Last thing, should I use the JRF's "bracket" system or should I just keep this poll individual on some sort of forum thread? Should we make it one of those (+1, -1) games or should we have a ton of polls (and use process of elimination)? It's all up to you.

Anyways, I know you good fellows will help me out.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I think not many of us, even the most avid of us, could have heard all of those pianists to make any kind of reasonable judgment. I haven't that kind of time anyway.

I know Rubinstein, Paderewski, Busoni, Scriabin, and Rachmaninoff only through their compositions or contributions to musicology, though you might say I have heard Rachmaninoff after a fashion through his piano rolls. 

In these forums I would bet Martha Argerich would win out most competitions like this - though I was so disappointed in her Schumann concerto I have lowered her several notches in my esteem.

My own personal favorites (of those I have heard) would be Schiff, Arrau, Brendel, Ashkenazy, and Perahia for different reasons.

Gould would be my least favorite, though I find him an intriguing character. 

Is there any way to cull that list down a bit?


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## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

Yes, good idea Weston! I'll cut it down to 32.

1. Sviatoslav Richter 
2. Sergei Rachmaninov
3. Vladimir Horowitz
4. Alfred Cortot
5. Artur Rubinstein
6. Artur Schnabel
7. Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli
8. Josef Hofmann
9. Emil Gilels
10. Vladimir Sofronitsky
11. Benno Moiseiwitsch
12. Edwin Fischer
13. Leopold Godowsky
14. Moriz Rosenthal
15. Claudio Arrau
16. Glenn Gould
17. Dinu Lipatti
18. Martha Argerich
19. Wilhelm Kempff
20. Rafael Joseffy
21. Walter Gieseking
22. Josef Lhevinne
23. Maria Yudina
24. Rudolf Serkin
25. Solomon Cutner
26. Ferrucio Busoni
27. Wilhelm Backhaus
28. Samuel Feinberg
29. Marc-Andre Hamelin
30. Georges Cziffra
31. William Kapell
32. Jorge Bolet

The question is: which of the "oldies" do you think I should move out for the young'uns? (I vote Bolet and possibly Solomon)

Brendel
Pollini
Zimmerman
Moravec
Sokolov
Lupu
Ashkenazy
Schiff
Kissin
etc.

I do plan to provide (one of) the best youtube performances I can find for each pianist, yet I'm not sure this is even enough to make it fair ground. But oh well... the composer version was almost no better.

Artur Rubinstein is the famous pianist I am referring to, not the composer Anton (no relation). He left one of the greatest recording legacies of all time. In fact, I'm sure most people have at least heard some of his playing, so he's safe to stay.

As for Argerich, she ain't going to win. At least I don't think so.

For those of you who don't know, I'm going to try to get the best classical music forums on the web involved in the "game", so you don't have to worry about "popularity control".


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

If it's about greatest concert pianists, why even consider Rachmaninoff? His performances are more kind of curiosity for those who would like to hear him playing. Nobody listents to his performances just because he wants to hear the work he plays. Many people would vote for him just because they like him as composer. If the bracket is going to make sense decide if you want to put there pianists that actually made a lot of recordings which are widely listened and regarded or the other ones.


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## Toccata (Jun 13, 2009)

Air said:


> So, I'm a bit bored (I'll admit it) and I've decided to play my own variation on JRFuerst's "bracket" game.


I wonder where I have previously seen a very similar list as yours.

Ah yes, I recall. It would appear that yoo have cobbled together your overall list from several produced several years by "Piano Wizard".

Here's the link: http://pianowizard.www2.50megs.com/index.html

The first of Piano Wizard's list, "Top 10 pianists of the 20th Century", is virtually identical to your top 10, except that you have placed your favourite, Richter, at the top instead of Rachmaninoff. Nine of the 10 pianists are exactly the same as yours. How uncanny is that? Only a miracle could account for it, or heavy plagiarism.

As for your other pianists, Nos 11-64, they're all basically drawn from Piano Wizard's other two lists: "Great pianists besides the top 10", and "Other Pianists Good and Bad".

I discovered Piano Wizard's excellent analyses years ago and used it in a discussion with "Lance" on CMG. Piano Wizard's analysis is good and makes most of the comment you find on sites like this look very amateurish.


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## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

Opal said:


> I wonder where I have previously seen a very similar list as yours.
> 
> Ah yes, I recall. It would appear that yoo have cobbled together your overall list from several produced several years by "Piano Wizard".
> 
> ...


Ah, what nonsense!

Anyone who clicks on the link above will notice that my "list" does differ from that of "Piano Wizard's". The placement of Sofronitsky, Fischer, Godowsky, Rosenthal and Moiseiwitsch already tell you so. Arrau is much further down. And plus, the top 10 is more than just "a bit" scrambled.

That said, I have read Piano Wizard's page in the past and have found his analysis very good, just as you have said. Maybe it was a foundation off of which I built some of my "ranking" system, but overall, the pianists I have on the list are on there not because of "his" list, but because they are good, and they deserve to be in competition for this title.

Very smart you are though. But I think you fail to see the object of this thread - an objective approach is necessary and I won't just throw in someone like Fou Ts'ong or Youri Egorov just to make this list "different". I had to take pianists who have more widespread renown - pianists that could _legally_ vie.

Again, thanks for being the CIA. You probably stalk me on other forums. I appreciate it. Your intelligence is admirable, but the manner in which you speak to me ("Heavy Plagiarism", "Amateurish") hardly.


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## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

Aramis said:


> If it's about greatest concert pianists, why even consider Rachmaninoff? His performances are more kind of curiosity for those who would like to hear him playing. Nobody listents to his performances just because he wants to hear the work he plays. Many people would vote for him just because they like him as composer. If the bracket is going to make sense decide if you want to put there pianists that actually made a lot of recordings which are widely listened and regarded or the other ones.


I have to disagree. He is probably one of the best Schumann and Chopin interpreters of all time. His Liszt is good too - in fact, I like everything I've heard from him, not much - but it makes me want to have more.

And his Rachmaninoff is more than a mere curiosity - it is a standard to which others can be judged.

Plus, the numerous books I've read on the subject of Rachmaninoff's pianism confirm that he is _certainly_ one of the greats.

(whispers) Look at "Piano Wizard's" list. That's a testament. (I'm waiting for Opal to use this against me!)

As I said before, I do not plan to have this game be open to "the public". It is for a small band of forums around the web. They know what they are about. Yeah, and (not directed towards Aramis) stalk "me" in those place too if you want. I really don't care.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Air said:


> Artur Rubinstein is the famous pianist I am referring to, not the composer Anton (no relation). He left one of the greatest recording legacies of all time. In fact, I'm sure most people have at least heard some of his playing, so he's safe to stay.


I'm always confusing the two, like I'm always getting Samuel Taylor Coleridge, the poet, mixed up with Samuel Coleridge-Taylor, the composer.


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## Toccata (Jun 13, 2009)

Air said:


> Again, thanks for being the CIA. You probably stalk me on other forums. I appreciate it. Your intelligence is admirable, but the manner in which you speak to me ("Heavy Plagiarism", "Amateurish") hardly.


I do not stalk you on other forums and I was not including you among the general bunch of amateurs who tend to hang about on forums like this. I only glance at classical forums very occasionally as I think they're all generally a waste of time, except for newbies.

Your own top 10 list is so remarkably close to Piano Wizard's that it must have been the basis for your own selection. Only Arrau is excluded from your top 10 list, but even so he appears at No 15. The chances of you coming up with your list completely independently based solely on your perception of 20th C pianists with the greatest merit is infinitesimally small. You only have to look at all the minor players that people come up with in places like this to see that. As you know from experience here, the biggest idol tend to be the likes of Argerich, Schiff, Perahia, etc - pianists who you know, and I know, are no way as good as those on your top 10 list.

Regardless of source, I would suggest that you are not likely to make much progress pursuing this ranking here because there just aren't enough people on this site who know enough about the top pianists of the 20 th C to make any educated contributions. For example, you mention Cortot. Yes indeed he was brilliant, but I bet the majority of members here here have not heard of him, nor others like Hofmann. They are too distant for the majority of members here to have any appreciation of their merits. Thus, to take it further based on the kind of uninformed comment you will get here seems like a travesty of the good work done by Piano Wizard, and hardly fair to him.

In any event, among some of the general purpose classical forums, if you raise this matter on GMG you will get the same dumb-founded reactions of ignorance as you will get here. If you take it up at CMG (which is slightly better quality) some of them may possibly rumble the true source of your rankings pretty sharpish, but probably won't agree with them except for Richter, Horowitz and Rubinstein. If you take it up at CMM (what a dump) they will laugh at you, as Corkin and his his ever-dwindling band only like forte-pianists.


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## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

Opal said:


> In any event, among some of the general purpose classical forums, if you raise this matter on GMG you will get the same dumb-founded reactions of ignorance as you will get here. If you take it up at CMG (which is slightly better quality) some of them may possibly rumble the true source of your rankings pretty sharpish, but probably won't agree with them except for Richter, Horowitz and Rubinstein. If you take it up at CMM (what a dump) they will laugh at you, as Corkin and his his ever-dwindling band only like forte-pianists.


Hello Opal!

The Amazon forum tried something like this and came up with Richter, Schnabel, Horowitz, and E.Fischer as the top 4, which is intriguing because these usually wouldn't be the top choices (Horowitz, Argerich, Gould, Richter, Rubinstein, Perahia, etc.). But of course, they have a good handful of pianophiles there - probably because Amazon is a good place for building a multi-sided piano collection.

It's sad that I have to agree with you here. At CMG, Richter and Horowitz battled it out, and even though I am heavily pro-Richter, I myself believe that it's only because I haven't explored enough to come to the right conclusion yet. GMG is heavily pro-Richter too, perhaps I was influenced by this a bit?

Don't get me started on CMM. Rod was so ungrateful when I brought A.Fischer, Richter, and Yudina into their little "Op.111 discussion". He was still drooling over his Peter Serkin recordings. I mean, it's ok to like something different, but with them it happens every time. I post the same links on Talk Classical and I get a different response. That's why TC is so much nicer.

Here's my conclusion - It will be hard to get something like this started on any such forum and it's not the fault of members here or there, it's just that we have different interests, both with their own merit.

Again, I apologize for any misunderstandings.

So I request this thread closed.


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## rojo (May 26, 2006)

Thread closed at OP's request.


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