# Trio for Cello, Clarinet, and Oboe



## PJaye

I'm still pretty new here, but I decided to give it a go and post some of my music. I guess if I'm really honest with myself, I'm quote stubborn minded when it comes to creative pursuits like music, and will always follow my instinct over suggestion from others; but I do know when constructive criticism resonates with me and rings true, and I take that in and pay attention to it. I'm firmly devoted to styles from the Baroque to the Romantic era. I see these periods as establishing a broad musical template which can serve any time and evolve stylistically further if done gracefully. I also like to draw inspiration from the artists I listen to from those times and 'play on' and adapt some aspect or feeling of what they've done in another way. I realize that my combination of instruments is fairly unorthodox in that regard, but not so much compared to what I see out there these days. I'm most interested in small combinations from trio to quintet and instruments often played off each other in solo passages, and countered in unison. I still have much I want to learn, but this is one of my pieces I feel good about. It is in 3 parts on my soundcloud page. Posted here is the first-


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https://soundcloud.com/paul-jansen-25%2Ftrio-for-cello-clarinet-oboemscz


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## Vasks

So far the soundcloud clip doesn't play, but then again it says it's under maintenance so maybe it will later, but meanwhile your comment is really conflicted:

_"I'm quote stubborn minded ......and will always follow my instinct over suggestion from others; but I do know when constructive criticism resonates with me and rings true, and I take that in and pay attention to it"_


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## Mahlerian

I think your textures are generally way too thin. You have frequent general pauses, which isn't effective if it's used too often in this kind of music.

Your rhythms and treatment of phrasing seem very odd, as if everything were a collection of run-on sentences. In the eras you're inspired by, your phrases should be clearly articulated rhythmically, melodically, and harmonically.


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## PJaye

Vasks said:


> So far the soundcloud clip doesn't play, but then again it says it's under maintenance so maybe it will later, but meanwhile your comment is really conflicted:
> 
> _"I'm quote stubborn minded ......and will always follow my instinct over suggestion from others; but I do know when constructive criticism resonates with me and rings true, and I take that in and pay attention to it"_


Really conflicted? How so? Why not use my full sentence if you choose to quote me? I am quite stubborn minded about following my instinct in creative pursuits because creativity is a process of the inner-self and its creative expression, unique and important to every individual, and it's greatest expression must come from within. Of course it will be affected by criticism, appreciation, learning, and many aspects of life, but there is a time to listen, and a time to focus and be intuitive


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## PJaye

Sorry you didn't like this one Mahlerian. It's exactly as I wish it to be -which I can't say for every piece I've done.


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## PJaye

Mahlerian said:


> I think your textures are generally way too thin. You have frequent general pauses, which isn't effective if it's used too often in this kind of music.
> 
> Your rhythms and treatment of phrasing seem very odd, as if everything were a collection of run-on sentences. In the eras you're inspired by, your phrases should be clearly articulated rhythmically, melodically, and harmonically.[/QUOTE
> 
> I realized after looking here again this morning, that I should have responded to your comments. The textures are what is required and best express what I'm trying to achieve. It seems that isn't to your taste though. The pauses are an essential part of the music. It wouldn't work without them. The piece is made up of variations on 3 ascending Cellos sections that lead into duo sections of Cello/Clarinet and Cello/Oboe that play 4 melodic lines, or taken together, a stanza, with an Oboe solo after the second section. The pauses in the duo parts are just part of the makeup of these lines. A more reflective change of perspective after the ascending Cello part, that I won't try and further describe. I really don't know what to make of your comments that "Your rhythms and treatment of phrasing seem very odd, as if everything were a collection of run-on sentences". I feel this piece is very tightly structured as I just described. The pauses -as you noted- seem antithetical to the idea of run on sentences, and the solo Cello parts hardly seem overly long. I feel I provide variation within this, to keep things interesting, but nothing resembling run on sentences. I guess I've made enough comments on this. I just needed to respond in defense of a piece that I'm proud of.


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## nikola

I like the piece. It's obvious that pauses are there for good reason since they are essential part of melody. To my ears it is really nicely constructed musical piece. It would be a treat to hear it with real instruments.


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## Torkelburger

View attachment Sample.mp3


> The textures are what is required


What is required in a trio is three instruments playing together for a large portion of the piece. The textures you have fit a sonata for two instruments. With what you've written, the third instrument is economically superfluous.


> and best express what I'm trying to achieve.


Again, what would best express what you've achieved would be two instruments (i.e. have the clarinet and cello throughout and leave out the oboe entirely, or vice versa).


> It seems that isn't to your taste though. The pauses are an essential part of the music.


It is not a matter of taste. And the pauses are not essential. The motor rhythms you've established at the beginning are what is essential. That determines the flow of the piece. When the melody pauses in the phrasing, this is an ideal spot for the accompaniment to keep the music flowing forward. But you didn't do that. Also, your rhythms are boring. There should be more to rhythm than just dah-dah-dah-dah of just straight eighth notes chugging along in both the melody and accompaniment.


> It wouldn't work without them.


It doesn't work with them as explained above.

Mahlerian is correct with his critiques. The texture is incorrect for a trio. And the pausing of the ostinato is not effective. Bach, Beethoven, and Mozart did not do such things with motor rhythms, even in slow movements.

I've attached a file at the top of this post of a few bars I quickly wrote to illustrate what the improvements I'm talking about. Note the texture, the flow of the ostinato (continuation of the motor rhythm) when the melody rests, and the variation of rhythms, and so forth.


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## nikola

After listening to that mp3, yes, maybe it would be better without pauses. 
But what is the point of changing composition if someone wants it to sound different? So, that difference 'doesn't work' because it's not 'mathematically' correct or it doesn't work because it's something what's not expected in music?


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## Torkelburger

nikola said:


> After listening to that mp3, yes, maybe it would be better without pauses.
> But what is the point of changing composition if someone wants it to sound different? So, that difference 'doesn't work' because it's not 'mathematically' correct or it doesn't work because it's something what's not expected in music?


But why can't both be accomplished? Why does the difference have to be logically flawed and musically unsatisfying all for the sake of being different? Why can't it both satisfy the principles of composition and sound good, and be original or experimental at the same time? Isn't that what Mozart and Beethoven did?


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## Ian Moore

I don't know if anyone has mentioned it already but the cello theme at the beginning really reminds me of a Bach prelude.


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## dzc4627

the famous cello one, right? the one that you hear a lot.


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## PJaye

Torkelburger said:


> View attachment 72758
> 
> What is required in a trio is three instruments playing together for a large portion of the piece. The textures you have fit a sonata for two instruments. With what you've written, the third instrument is economically superfluous.
> 
> I thought I was finished with commenting but... You seem to have forgotten, I wrote the piece. I had no intention of having 3 instruments play together for the majority of the piece. I wasn't aware of these 'requirements'. Who was it that set these down? I do know about past precedents in trio composition. The vast majority falling under string or piano trio. Perhaps your referring to the characteristics of a string trio where the strings have a natural affinity for playing in unison, and that is often used to advantage. The third instrument is not superfluous simply because it adds a different element to the music.
> 
> Again, what would best express what you've achieved would be two instruments (i.e. have the clarinet and cello throughout and leave out the oboe entirely, or vice versa).
> 
> Again, I composed the piece -and I happen to like the Oboe.
> 
> It is not a matter of taste. And the pauses are not essential. The motor rhythms you've established at the beginning are what is essential. That determines the flow of the piece. When the melody pauses in the phrasing, this is an ideal spot for the accompaniment to keep the music flowing forward. But you didn't do that. Also, your rhythms are boring. There should be more to rhythm than just dah-dah-dah-dah of just straight eighth notes chugging along in both the melody and accompaniment.
> 
> You are confusing theory -and yes, taste- with something else entirely. In that regard, for me than they are essential -how about we put it like that? One small tip on music theory for you, since you seem to like it by the book -a motor rhythm is a choice, not a requirement. It is not my choice, and hence, no part is meant to be a constant throughout the piece.
> 
> It doesn't work with them as explained above.
> 
> Mahlerian is correct with his critiques. The texture is incorrect for a trio. And the pausing of the ostinato is not effective. Bach, Beethoven, and Mozart did not do such things with motor rhythms, even in slow movements.
> 
> Oh? I would bet money they most certainly did. They used them as, and when they saw fit in service of the music.
> 
> I've attached a file at the top of this post of a few bars I quickly wrote to illustrate what the improvements I'm talking about. Note the texture, the flow of the ostinato (continuation of the motor rhythm) when the melody rests, and the variation of rhythms, and so forth.


Congratulations on your "improvements".

As a side note: Before you accuse me of being adverse to criticism and critique, what I take exception to is you offering presumptuous hardline theories on what should and should not be incorporated into a piece of music that is not your own. I don't believe anyone has such authority, and anyone who pretends to it, is misguided, be it that they have a conservatory degree or not. Try offering your viewpoint and critique a little more subjectively next time. Maybe with an "I feel" occasionally.


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## Vasks

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## PJaye

It had an influence. I'm sure. I'm glad you noticed.


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## PJaye

PJaye said:


> It had an influence. I'm sure. I'm glad you noticed.


Oops,

In reply to Ian Moore


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## Majed Al Shamsi

The melody is nice, but I wish the instruments overlapped further, and that when they did, they didn't almost always move in parallel motion.


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## Torkelburger

PJaye said:


> Congratulations on your "improvements".
> 
> As a side note: Before you accuse me of being adverse to criticism and critique, what I take exception to is you offering presumptuous hardline theories on what should and should not be incorporated into a piece of music that is not your own. I don't believe anyone has such authority, and anyone who pretends to it, is misguided, be it that they have a conservatory degree or not. Try offering your viewpoint and critique a little more subjectively next time. Maybe with an "I feel" occasionally.


I have every right to offer my theories and opinions on what should and should not be incorporated into a piece of music that is not my own. I do not need your permission. You do not have to read or reply to my posts if you do not like or agree with them. I will continue to offer my viewpoints and critiques in the manner I so choose and will not be bullied into the contrary.


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## PJaye

Torkelburger said:


> I have every right to offer my theories and opinions on what should and should not be incorporated into a piece of music that is not my own. I do not need your permission. You do not have to read or reply to my posts if you do not like or agree with them. I will continue to offer my viewpoints and critiques in the manner I so choose and will not be bullied into the contrary.


Of course. It was just how I was feeling. I guess I was pretty defensive. I don't want to bully anyone. Maybe I get that way about my music sometimes. Thanks to all for the input.


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