# Did Schubert Out-Bruckner Bruckner?



## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Am I the only one who thinks Schubert's "Great" Symphony set a bar of heroic, triumphant epic-ness that Bruckner strived towards but never reached?

Not to mention my view that Schubert's 15th String Quartet is the proto-typical Bruckner symphony.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I love Schubert and I love Bruckner, but Schubert's 9th leaves me cold for some reason.


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## Eclectic Al (Apr 23, 2020)

I'm no musicologidt, but when people look to threads in music, X to Y to Z, then I can't help but think that Scubert to Bruckner is one of the most compelling. And I like some Bruckner, but late Schubert is just better.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Art Rock said:


> I love Schubert and I love Bruckner, but Schubert's 9th leaves me cold for some reason.


Keep in mind Schubert's Ninth is his reply to Beethoven's Ninth. It is long, epic, and quotes Ode to Joy in the finale.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Bruckner was definitely influenced by Schubert. I personally wouldn't put Schubert's 9th (or 8th, depending on what box you pull it from) above Bruckner's 9th. Bruckner was stretching out harmonically beyond Schubert by that point. Also, by the time of their 9ths, they both were focusing on different things. Bruckner's 9th is concerned less with the heroic than with the process of moving from the fear of death into the assurance of ultimate resurrection. 

I'll have to listen to the 15th quartet again now that you're bringing it into comparison/competition with Bruckner.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Manxfeeder said:


> Bruckner was definitely influenced by Schubert. I personally wouldn't put Schubert's 9th (or 8th, depending on what box you pull it from) above Bruckner's 9th. Bruckner was stretching out harmonically beyond Schubert by that point. Also, by the time of their 9ths, they both were focusing on different things. Bruckner's 9th is concerned less with the heroic than with the process of moving from the fear of death into the assurance of ultimate resurrection.
> 
> I'll have to listen to the 15th quartet again now that you're bringing it into comparison/competition with Bruckner.


The G major string quartet has the _tremolo_, the length, the modulation, and the reptition of a Bruckner symphony. My love of Bruckner may well have been what caused me to fall in love with Schubert's 15th string quartet on first listen.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

I don't find Schubert's symphonic results close to Bruckner's.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

ORigel said:


> The G major string quartet has the _tremolo_, the length, the modulation, and the reptition of a Bruckner symphony. My love of Bruckner may well have been what caused me to fall in love with Schubert's 15th string quartet on first listen.


Hey, any excuse to listen to Schubert is a good one. :tiphat:


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

I like polls because although I'm no music expert, not by a long shot, my vote counts the same as the next persons vote, even if they know everything about music. But anyway, I love Schubert and I'm indifferent to Bruckner, so I'll vote accordingly...


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## Eclectic Al (Apr 23, 2020)

Fabulin said:


> I don't find Schubert's symphonic results close to Bruckner's.


Compare Scubert's chamber music with Bruckner's though. No contest. There's a string quintet isn't there, and what else. By the way, I'm not knocking Bruckner's symphonies, but in terms of overall achievement ??? However, sticking to the question of this thread, the answer is yes. Factor in the other late quartets, and the Schubert string quintet ???


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Kieran said:


> I like polls because although I'm no music expert, not by a long shot, my vote counts the same as the next persons vote, even if they know everything about music. But anyway, I love Schubert and I'm indifferent to Bruckner, so I'll vote accordingly...


I think that it's totally possible that someone who isn't a PhD in grammar can comprehend an elaborated text while someone who is a PhD focuses too much in small, insignificant technical details while losing it's meaning as a whole, so I think that the voting system is fair. We're all enthusiasts here, aren't we?


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## Beebert (Jan 3, 2019)

This thread isn't about comparing who is the greater composer of the two, is it? If it was, then there is no contes in my view. Schubert is by far the greater of course.

I also prefer Schubert's 9th over all the symphonies Bruckner wrote.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I haven’t the faintest idea of how to begin to make a comparison between the 2 to be honest


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

I don’t at all understand this comparison and never have. The only thing they have in common is “heavenly length.” Schubert’s symphonies are driven by a constant flow of songful melody, while Bruckner is all about structure, spaciousness, and meticulous layering of ideas with lyricism only one brick in the cathedral.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

Schubert didn't out-Bruckner Bruckner; the point is rather that there is more Schubert in Bruckner than one might think. For some reason Bruckner is lumped in with Wagner and Mahler, but Bruckner's connection to Wagner and Mahler go only as far as the breadth and the length of his Bruckner's symphonies which curiously seem to parallel Mahler's equally gargantuan symphonies. Despite the monster length, deep layering, and noisy ramblings, Bruckner's idiom is closer to Schubert than it is to Wagner sand Mahler.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Coach G said:


> Schubert didn't out-Bruckner Bruckner; the point is rather that there is more Schubert in Bruckner than one might think. For some reason Bruckner is lumped in with Wagner and Mahler, but Bruckner's connection to Wagner and Mahler go only as far as the breadth and the length of his Bruckner's symphonies which curiously seem to parallel Mahler's equally gargantuan symphonies. Despite the monster length, deep layering, and noisy ramblings, Bruckner's idiom is closer to Schubert than it is to Wagner sand Mahler.


For me the closest inheritor of Schubert's symphonic tradition was Tchaikovsky, who struggled with structure and instead created movements that were essentially just an unending stream of tunes. I hear Bruckner as focusing chiefly on form and long-term structure while Schubert only focuses on the pleasure of the moment. Mahler then took the Wagner/Bruckner model and injected unheralded expressivity, elasticity, and diversity into the models. Could you please expand on the idea of Bruckner being more closely related to Schubert than Wagner and Mahler? I'm genuinely curious to know why you think this since I don't hear any similarities in their approaches to the symphony.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> For me the closest inheritor of Schubert's symphonic tradition was Tchaikovsky, who struggled with structure and instead created movements that were essentially just an unending stream of tunes. I hear Bruckner as focusing chiefly on form and long-term structure while Schubert only focuses on the pleasure of the moment. Mahler then took the Wagner/Bruckner model and injected unheralded expressivity, elasticity, and diversity into the models. Could you please expand on the idea of Bruckner being more closely related to Schubert than Wagner and Mahler? I'm genuinely curious to know why you think this since I don't hear any similarities in their approaches to the symphony.


Listen to Schubert's Fifteenth String Quartet. It has similarities to a Bruckner symphony with its modulations (it is in G major but only decides on that at the end of the first movement), repitition of themes, and use of vibrato. It is almost the mature* string quartet Bruckner would have composed, if he didn't waste his time revising his symphonies.

*Bruckner did compose a string quartet as a student.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

ORigel said:


> Listen to Schubert's Fifteenth String Quartet. It has similarities to a Bruckner symphony with its modulations (it is in G major but only decides on that at the end of the first movement), repitition of themes, and use of vibrato. It is almost the mature* string quartet Bruckner would have composed, if he didn't waste his time revising his symphonies.
> 
> *Bruckner did compose a string quartet as a student.


A little bit. I'm still not totally convinced, but sure, I suppose there are connections.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Eclectic Al said:


> Compare Scubert's chamber music with Bruckner's though. No contest. There's a string quintet isn't there, and what else. By the way, I'm not knocking Bruckner's symphonies, but in terms of overall achievement ??? However, sticking to the question of this thread, the answer is yes. Factor in the other late quartets, and the Schubert string quintet ???


Chamber music is largely irrelevant to me. I don't listen to it


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Allerius said:


> I think that it's totally possible that someone who isn't a PhD in grammar can comprehend an elaborated text while someone who is a PhD focuses too much in small, insignificant technical details while losing it's meaning as a whole, so I think that the voting system is fair. We're all enthusiasts here, aren't we?


It's also totally possible that someone with a PhD (or a musicologist) can be _ wrong _.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> For me the closest inheritor of Schubert's symphonic tradition was Tchaikovsky, who struggled with structure and instead created movements that were essentially just an unending stream of tunes. .


That describes Dvorak more than Tchaikovsky


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

To my ears the development of a Bruckner symphony seems to build along the lines of Schubert (I'm thinking of the first movement of Schubert's unfinished 8th); though on a much larger scale in terms of length and bombast. Harold Schonberg wrote that Bruckner's slow movements seem to want to rewrite the _Adagio_ from Beethoven's 9th. I think we read a lot of Mahler into Bruckner because their sets of symphonies seem to mirror one another in several ways. Wagner, too; especially since Bruckner idolized Wagner. But Bruckner also idolized Beethoven and Schubert; and when Beethoven and Schubert's remains were exhumed and relocated, Bruckner was captivated enough to be there.


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