# Your Bach Cello Suites recordings



## Oldhoosierdude

I have Amazon Prime and a number of recordings of Bach's Cello Suites are on there. I also have a CD set by Maurice Gendron and a set by Rostropovich. Rostropovich to me plays with a lot of command and strength, excellently. The others all have their excellencies also.

The Gendron set is by far my favorite. There is something about the feeling and sheer beauty he puts into it that rings right with me. And the quality of the recordings is fantastic.









The Cello Suites are my go to music when I am writing. It is perfect for me.

Which recording (s) do you have and enjoy the most?


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## dieter

Heinrich Schiff, Bylsma, ter Linden, Kotova,Mork,Isserlis,Fournier, Carr, Casals,Butt: I like them all, Fournier and Casals for 'old' world playing, and I can play any of the others with sheer pleasure.


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## Bulldog

Mine are Casals, Bylsma, ter Linden, Pergamenschikow, Yo-Yo Ma, Kirshbaum, Dieltiens, Bruns, Beschi, Fournier, Wispelwey, Sheppard, Maisky, Carrai, Rostropovich, Markson, Suzuki and a few others. Beschi (Winter & Winter) is my favorite - HIP to the max and sharp to piercing.


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## Chronochromie

Queyras' is my favorite.


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## joen_cph

The Morten Zeuthen recording has been sufficient for me for a long time; it includes the Flute Partita in a cello version as a bonus. 
I have the Casals recording as well, as a contrast.

Also, I skipped a few more recordings. Shafran on Melodiya was surprisingly lifeless for example, IMO.


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## Pugg

In this order at this moment:

Philip Higham 
Mstislav Rostropovich
Pieter Wispelwey
Pablo Casals
Yo-Yo Ma
Heinrich Schiff


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## Heliogabo

Mines arived in this order: Antonio Janigro, Pau Casals, Rostropovich, Pierre Fournier (DG), Robert Cohen (included in my Bach edition), Yo Yo Ma (partial set included in a Ma's boxset), Paul Tortelier (EMI), this last is my favorite lately. I'm considering the Bylsma set in order to add a HIP recording to my collection.


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## DavidA

I heard Ralf Kirsbaum play the cello suites at the Wigmore hall many years ago amazing that Bach could write music for ne stringed instrument that could keep an audience interested for a whole evening!
as for discs I have the Fournier which is a wonderfully fleet traversal and Casals' pioneering account.


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## Dr Johnson

Rostropovich and Casals.

I used to have a version by Nikolaus Harnoncourt, but found it didn't engage my attention.


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## chesapeake bay

This is my current favorite









His playing is exceptional and the cello sounds amazing, it was made by Camillus Camilli in Mantua 1736


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## Mandryka

I recently spent a lot of time listening to 6. I was really surprised by how disappointing Casals is, apart from the prelude. He under-articulates the dances, so that there isn't a feel of the phrases bouncing off each other. The prelude is a great performance IMO, probably the best thing I've heard from him.

From historic performances I enjoyed Starker a lot. Expressive and poised and controlled.

People who like the music played like an aria - big phrases which sing out - will really love Arnold Tomàs - I think he is the best ever at this sort of style. 

Another interesting musician is Paolo Pandolfo. I think it gives the music the feeling of melodies arriving on a breeze in the Allemande of 6. Another really distinctive moment is is the second gavotte. The mood is introspective. There's no real sense of a "singing forth"

Another one I like is 2, and for me here I have a clear favourite, Badiarov. For 6 on shoulder cello, Terakado is refined and moving - Terakado is well worth seeking out.


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## Mandryka

joen_cph said:


> The Morten Zeuthen recording has been sufficient for me for a long time; it includes the Flute Partita in a cello version as a bonus.
> .


It is extremely radiant, blinding and golden like the sun, and that is not a bad way to read this music I think, even if it is a bit one sided.


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## Bluecrab

Pablo Casals and Janos Starker. The Starker recording is technically superior, but I prefer the Casals. Perhaps it has something to do with his intense attachment to these works.


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## agoukass

I have the Rostropovich and Tortelier versions. More than enough for me.


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## PeterF

I lean toward the version by Janos Starker.


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## Blancrocher

Anyone heard the recent David Watkin release? I'm not convinced by the clips I've found on Youtube, but it's received glowing reviews.


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## Heliogabo

Blancrocher said:


> Anyone heard the recent David Watkin release? I'm not convinced by the clips I've found on Youtube, but it's received glowing reviews.


I have not heard his suites, but his palying in Vivaldi's cello sonatas is stunning.


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## Mandryka

Blancrocher said:


> Anyone heard the recent David Watkin release? I'm not convinced by the clips I've found on Youtube, but it's received glowing reviews.


Do you like Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau? You know, that singer who worked on each syllable of a song to give it a meaningful nuance. If you do, you may enjoy Watkin's style in the last three suites. Someone less kind than me would say he milks the music. I can't remember anything about the first three, except that 2 left me really disappointed, but it could have been me.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

Jean-Guihen Queyras is my current favourite. There are many other excellent recordings, of course. Of the "classics", I remain in awe of Paul Tortelier's EMI set, which was the first one I ever owned... on revient toujour à ses premières amours!


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## worov




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## Guest

I have Mstislav Rostropovich (newer EMI), Janos Starker, Alexander Kniazev, and Gavriel Lipkind. The latter two are my favorites.


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## satoru

Anybody out there who also likes Isserlis?


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## Mandryka

satoru said:


> Anybody out there who also likes Isserlis?
> 
> View attachment 86337


More so in the accompanied sonatas than in the solo suites.


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## Mandryka

Very much enjoying these transcriptions, possibly the best transcriptions of Bach I have ever heard


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## realdealblues

Heinrich Schiff









I have a ton of recordings of the Cello Suites but I've always agreed with reviewer Jed Distler on when it comes to this one. No one does the dances like Schiff.

_"Bach's cello suites abound in superlative recordings, from Casals' still potent pioneering set (Naxos) to riveting cycles from Boris Pergamenschikov (Hänssler) and Torleif Thedéen (BIS) released on the cusp of the millennium. In between are classic versions by Pierre Fournier (DG), Paul Tortelier (EMI), Mstislav Rostropovich (EMI), Andre Navarra (Calliope), Anner Bylsma (his Sony remake), Ralph Kirshbaum (Virgin), and multiple Janos Starker editions. I keep these in my library as an oenophile cultivates a choice collection of fine wines. When I want to break out the vintage port, figuratively speaking, I reach for Heinrich Schiff's arrestingly individual, musically profound, and sonically sumptuous 1985 EMI traversals. 
_
_ 
You notice his sound first. It's a rich tone through and through: not always pretty, granted, but incredibly focused, be it in the Sixth Suite's stratospheric tessitura or in bass lines that alternately jab and sustain. While some cellists like to linger over the Preludes, Schiff instead gets down to business, sculpting the harmonic groupings in the manner of a keyboard player. Schiff's rhythmic vitality and pinpointed accents bring all the dance movements to joyful life. The melodies always bend, curve, and surge over the bar line, avoiding predictable patterns of accentuation. With all that, the listener never loses the beat or, more accurately, the pulse of life. Ornaments are present, but don't draw attention to themselves. _

_ 
Originally issued at full-price and quickly deleted, EMI resurrects this unjustly buried treasure for its Double Forte series. It's like getting a bottle of Dom Perignon for the price of Sangria. Even if you already have one or two Bach Cello Suite cycles in your larder, this one is special. Really special."_


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## Omicron9

The first recording by Starker; early '60s I believe? On Mercury Living Presence. My personal all-round fave.
Anner Byslma on Sony
Wispelwey (2012 recording; 3-disc box, Evil Penguin label I think)


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## Jerry

Interesting thread and quite a few recordings I had not heard of before which I shall investigate.
I've heard most of the standard recommendations, I think - Starker, Casals, Rostropovich, Tortelier, Ma .... etc ...
All of them very acceptable in their own ways. 

But for some reason I keep coming back to Csaba Onczay on Naxos. I'd plead exceptions on some movements, but overall he just nails the pieces for me. It's like coming home and just being comfortable. It's the pacing as much as anything else, it just sounds right for me most of the time.


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## Guest




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## TurnaboutVox

I only have two recordings - Maurice Gendron, acquired 30 years ago, and Janos Starker (on EMI), picked up second hand last year. I'm not sure I prefer one over the other.


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## hpowders

I like the first Yo-Yo Ma recording. Bouncy and technically perfect.

Also the set by Jean-Guihen Queyras is marvelous!

For a HIP version, consider Ophélie Gaillard.

Happy listening!


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## Merl

I love and own all of these:


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## Antiquarian

Merl said:


> I love and own all of these:
> 
> View attachment 89543
> View attachment 89544
> View attachment 89545


All good performances. In my opinion Yo-Yo Ma's 1983 recording is much better than his 1997 effort (less mechanical, more organic, if you can apply those terms to music). The 1997 recording also has a confusing title: _The Cello Suites Inspired by Bach_ that gives the erroneous impression that these are creative interpretations of the suites, and not the suites themselves. This was, I believe, a marketing ploy by Sony, as they packaged a six part film series to go with it.


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## Pugg

Merl said:


> I love and own all of these:
> 
> View attachment 89543
> View attachment 89544
> View attachment 89545


Very good choices, I would add Ma's second set also.


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## Merl

I love the Starker on RCA. It has a feel that the others don't.


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## Judith

satoru said:


> Anybody out there who also likes Isserlis?
> 
> View attachment 86337


Love Steven Isserlis. Saw him at a recital he performed with Connie Shih in Harrogate. Managed to meet him and get his autograph. He was really nice. Seeing him again three weeks in Leeds. Again with Connie Shih.


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## Art Rock

Cello suites 1,4,6 (Gendron, Philips)
Cello suites 2,3,5 (Gendron, Philips)
Cello suites (Yo Yo Ma, Sony, CD 1/2)
Cello suites (Yo Yo Ma, Sony, CD 2/2)
Cello suites - inspired by Bach (Yo Yo Ma, Sony, CD 1/2)
Cello suites - inspired by Bach (Yo Yo Ma, Sony, CD 2/2)
Cello suites on viola (Rysanov, BIS, CD 1/2)
Cello suites on viola (Rysanov, BIS, CD 2/2)
Cello suites on guitar (Yamashita, Nippon Crown, CD 1/2)
Cello suites on guitar (Yamashita, Nippon Crown, CD 2/2)
Cello suites 1,2,3 on double bass (Meyer, Sony)
Cello suites, violin sonata on guitar (Soellscher, DG)


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## JACE

Merl said:


> I love the Starker on RCA. It has a feel that the others don't.


That's my favorite set too.


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## Judith

Just ordered it now. Influenced by this thread lol. Mine is performed by Steven Isserlis. Looking forward to it!!


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## Guest

I know Starker made two recordings of the Bach cello suites,RCA and Mercury,.Wich one of the the two is the one to go for.


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## JACE

Traverso said:


> I know Starker made two recordings of the Bach cello suites,RCA and Mercury,.Wich one of the the two is the one to go for.


I was referring to Starker's RCA set.

I've never heard his Mercury recordings -- so I can't comment on those.


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## StlukesguildOhio

PeterF said:


> I lean toward the version by Janos Starker.


Which one?......


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## StlukesguildOhio

I have a dozen or so recordings of the cello suites. These are my "go to" recordings most of the time:



The Starker recordings are from1963 and 1992 (I believe... the 5th recording nevertheless). The Rostropovich is a live recording on the Russian lable, Supraphon, which I find stronger than the well-known studio version. My favorite of all is Fournier which I feel has the best balance between a fluid dance element and the darker or more stark emotive quality that Starker (1992... probably my second favorite) is best at.


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## StlukesguildOhio

Traverso said:


> I know Starker made two recordings of the Bach cello suites,RCA and Mercury,.Wich one of the the two is the one to go for.


Actually, Starker recorded the suites 5 times.


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## premont

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Actually, Starker recorded the suites 5 times.


Four and 2/3 times to be exact.

The first recording (Saga LP) was incomplete, containing only Suites 1, 3, 4 and 6.


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## jegreenwood

I have Starker (Mercury), Ma (1st cycle), Fournier and Bylsma (a Sony budget reissue without much information as to which of his two sets). I also have lute transcriptions of all of them

When I was a student at Harvard, a friend stopped by my dorm room and dragged me to the Dunster House library. There we joined a small group of students sitting on the floor listening to Yo Yo Ma playing them.


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## Bruckner Anton

Gendron's is also my favorite.


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## StlukesguildOhio

Currently, I'm listening to Truls Mørk perform the cello suites on Spotify. I find this recording to be quite fine... very "musical" and fluid without ever becoming too fast as some performances do... or fail to suggest the darker or more somber elements of the suites.


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## hpowders

I have 12 sets of the Bach Cello Suites. I always seem to come back to the first Yo-Yo Ma set. For me, definitive.


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## StlukesguildOhio

I somewhere in the neighborhood of 12 versions of the cello suites as well. Yo-Yo Ma's first recording of the suites was my first set as well and I had the good fortune to have seen him perform the whole suites in person. Even so, while I still quite admire the set, my first choices for the suites are usually those by Pierre Fournier and the 5th recording by Starker.


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## JACE

jegreenwood said:


> When I was a student at Harvard, a friend stopped by my dorm room and dragged me to the Dunster House library. There we joined a small group of students sitting on the floor listening to Yo Yo Ma playing them.


Cool story. I'm sure that must have been a memorable experience!


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## Pugg

JACE said:


> Cool story. I'm sure that must have been a memorable experience!


I've seen Gautier Capucon doing one, as an encore, does that count also?


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## hpowders

StlukesguildOhio said:


> I somewhere in the neighborhood of 12 versions of the cello suites as well. Yo-Yo Ma's first recording of the suites was my first set as well and I had the good fortune to have seen him perform the whole suites in person. Even so, while I still quite admire the set, my first choices for the suites are usually those by Pierre Fournier and the 5th recording by Starker.


Never heard the Fournier. A lot of vibrato?


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## JACE

Pugg said:


> I've seen Gautier Capucon doing one, as an encore, does that count also?


Of course it does!


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## Vaneyes

Schiff. Honorable mention, Gendron. :tiphat:


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## Oldhoosierdude

I picked up a Fournier recently on a bargain. Gendron is still my favorite by a slim margin.


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## Guest

I have to add two recordings #28


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## Pugg

Traverso said:


> I have to add two recordings #28


Talking about different performances......


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## Guest

Pugg said:


> Talking about different performances......


only 6.......


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## starthrower

I have Starker, and Rostropovich, but haven't listened to them yet.


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## Nate Miller

I think the Pablo Casals recordings that made these part of the performance repertoire are my models. 

I have the Yo-Yo Ma, and also John Williams playing them on guitar


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## Guest

I have three:

Fournier was my first. It came with high praise and rightly so. It's HIP and I still listen to it often.
Queyras was second. I wanted something new and I liked it but it never displaced Fournier. 
Meneses was the last one I acquired. Not well known but excellent. Understated and reverent. It actually did displace Fournier as my favorite for a while, but now it's a toss-up between them.


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## Guest

Jerome said:


> I have three:
> 
> Fournier was my first. It came with high praise and rightly so. It's HIP and I still listen to it often.
> Queyras was second. I wanted something new and I liked it but it never displaced Fournier.
> Meneses was the last one I acquired. Not well known but excellent. Understated and reverent. It actually did displace Fournier as my favorite for a while, but now it's a toss-up between them.


Are you sure that Fournier is HIP?


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## Guest

Traverso said:


> Are you sure that Fournier is HIP?


I thought I remembered it being HIP but you put doubt in my mind. I don't have the notes so I looked at reviews on Amazon and one says:
"Fournier uses a rare circa-1722 Venetian Matteo Goffriler Cello for these recordings"


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## Guest

Jerome said:


> I thought I remembered it being HIP but you put doubt in my mind. I don't have the notes so I looked at reviews on Amazon and one says:
> "Fournier uses a rare circa-1722 Venetian Matteo Goffriler Cello for these recordings"


His cello is old but that does not mean that his playing is based on HIP :tiphat:


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## Guest

Traverso said:


> His cello is old but that does not mean that his playing is based on HIP :tiphat:


From the same review:
"This instrument, combined with Fournier's tasteful period-influenced lack of excessive vibrato may be..."

Also, his cello is not just an "old" instrument, it is a "period" instrument. Certainly the tone of the instrument influenced his performance. The recordings were released on the Archive label which is strongly HIP. There are, of course, varying degrees of HIP. One person's HIP may not be another person's HIP. Are you of the opinion that these recordings are not HIP?


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## Guest

Jerome said:


> From the same review:
> "This instrument, combined with Fournier's tasteful period-influenced lack of excessive vibrato may be..."
> 
> Also, his cello is not just an "old" instrument, it is a "period" instrument. Certainly the tone of the instrument influenced his performance. The recordings were released on the Archive label which is strongly HIP. There are, of course, varying degrees of HIP. One person's HIP may not be another person's HIP. Are you of the opinion that these recordings are not HIP?


Ii is my opinion that these recordings are not HIP,that they are on the Archiv label is no assurance.The recordings with Karl Richter are also on the Archiv label and would you call them HIP based?
The use of vibrato in these recordings are a first indication that they are not.
Nevertheless they can be very enjoyable,HIP is no guarantee that you have a fine performance.


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## sbmonty

I have Casals, Starker (RCA) and Perényi (for the 6th suite). The Starker is rich and dark in tone. Very enjoyable.


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## Heliogabo

Recently I discovered Mischa Maisky's 2nd recording (DG) Not for all tastes for sure but sill I quite engaging reading, and unique. He takes his risks sometimes extremely to the edge of... Jumping out of Bach. But his artistry is there for recovering Bach's compositions, revealing new and unsuspected sides of them. This rendition you might love it or hate it. I enjoy a lot what he does and his exploratory spirit. A nice addition to my suites collection.


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## hpowders

I have at least 10 performances of these suites and for the life of me none beat the first one I ever bought-Yo-Yo Ma's first recording, for virtuosity and insight. Incomparable, IMO.


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## Pugg

Heliogabo said:


> Recently I discovered Mischa Maisky's 2nd recording (DG) Not for all tastes for sure but sill I quite engaging reading, and unique. He takes his risks sometimes extremely to the edge of... Jumping out of Bach. But his artistry is there for recovering Bach's compositions, revealing new and unsuspected sides of them. This rendition you might love it or hate it. I enjoy a lot what he does and his exploratory spirit. A nice addition to my suites collection.


Will give it a go, thanks for sharing.


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## Guest

I have been thinking of getting the recording by Ophélie Gaillard and would like some input from others who have it. The reviews on Amazon were all good. The clips that I listened to were nicely performed. The recording had a lot of room in it, which I am not necessarily opposed to. (For those not familiar with the recording term "room" it means the natural echo or reverb from the room where it is recorded.) In the reviews, good things were said about the sound of her Cello and I would agree with it.


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## Animal the Drummer

Heliogabo said:


> Recently I discovered Mischa Maisky's 2nd recording (DG) Not for all tastes for sure but sill I quite engaging reading, and unique. He takes his risks sometimes extremely to the edge of... Jumping out of Bach. But his artistry is there for recovering Bach's compositions, revealing new and unsuspected sides of them. This rendition you might love it or hate it. I enjoy a lot what he does and his exploratory spirit. A nice addition to my suites collection.


I'm glad you enjoy it, but I'm afraid I didn't. There's too much Maisky and not enough Bach in those performances for me.


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## Mandryka

Jerome said:


> I have been thinking of getting the recording by Ophélie Gaillard and would like some input from others who have it. The reviews on Amazon were all good. The clips that I listened to were nicely performed. The recording had a lot of room in it, which I am not necessarily opposed to. (For those not familiar with the recording term "room" it means the natural echo or reverb from the room where it is recorded.) In the reviews, good things were said about the sound of her Cello and I would agree with it.


Which one are you talking about? She's recorded them twice and they're rather different.


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## Guest

Mandryka said:


> Which one are you talking about? She's recorded them twice and they're rather different.


I did not realize that. I was talking about the one first released in 2011 with a white cover and a picture of the artist standing with her cello. This is the one I read the reviews for and listed to clips of.

I now see she also released another recording 2006 which has an older looking photo in sepia tone.

I would be interested in others reactions to either or both of these.


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## Pugg

​Just ordered this one, €9.95 shipped, got raving reviews.


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## premont

Pugg said:


> ​Just ordered this one, €9.95 shipped, got raving reviews.


Got it four days ago, not yet listened to, expectations high.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

I have Rostropovich, Ma and Fournier. I listen to Rostropovich most often and Ma least often.


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## Pugg

premont said:


> Got it four days ago, not yet listened to, expectations high.


Mine also, the papers can't get enough of it, feels almost like a hype.


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## Mandryka

Jerome said:


> I did not realize that. I was talking about the one first released in 2011 with a white cover and a picture of the artist standing with her cello. This is the one I read the reviews for and listed to clips of.
> 
> I now see she also released another recording 2006 which has an older looking photo in sepia tone.
> 
> I would be interested in others reactions to either or both of these.


The second is middle of the road HIP, cool headed. I prefer the first. In fact I like the first!


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## Guest

Mandryka said:


> The second is middle of the road HIP, cool headed. I prefer the first. In fact I like the first!


Thank you. But I want make sure I understand. When you say the first, do you mean the first I mentioned or the first she recorded?


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## Mandryka

Jerome said:


> Thank you. But I want make sure I understand. When you say the first, do you mean the first I mentioned or the first she recorded?


The first one she recorded. The earlier one. The one which does NOT use the Matteo Goffriller (1737.) The one with the sepia cover! That's the one I like more.


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## Guest

Mandryka said:


> The first one she recorded. The earlier one. The one which does NOT use the Matteo Goffriller (1737.) The one with the sepia cover! That's the one I like more.


Admittedly, I have only listened to a few brief clips of each on iTunes, but I feel the opposite. The newer recording is much more interesting to me - both in sound and performance. But still, thanks for your input.


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## Pugg

premont said:


> Got it four days ago, not yet listened to, expectations high.


Did you do like it or not listened yet?
Mine arrives today.


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## premont

Pugg said:


> Did you do like it or not listened yet?
> Mine arrives today.


I have listened to CD 1. The playing is elegant and dancing - in the Heinrich Schiff mood, but with a lighter touch and with more expressive agogics. A very nice interpretation.


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## Omicron9

I have several; the one to which I most often return is the Starker on Mercury Living Presence. Also like the Bylsma, and the most recent cycle by Wispelway: https://www.amazon.com/Bach-6-Suites-Cello-Solo/dp/B008TUDI2A/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_15_img_0?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=W254BVTB5KT6FKDSHGV3.

The Ma recording always sounds to me like he was double-parked during the recording sessions.

-09


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## Pugg

Omicron9 said:


> I have several; the one to which I most often return is the Starker on Mercury Living Presence. Also like the Bylsma, and the most recent cycle by Wispelwey: https://www.amazon.com/Bach-6-Suites-Cello-Solo/dp/B008TUDI2A/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_15_img_0?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=W254BVTB5KT6FKDSHGV3.
> 
> The Ma recording always sounds to me like he was double-parked during the recording sessions.
> 
> -09


I like his 1998 recording even more.


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## Omicron9

Thanks, Pugg; I'll have to check it out. The one I quoted comes with a DVD documentary; quite fascinating.


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## Tchaikov6

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Currently, I'm listening to Truls Mørk perform the cello suites on Spotify. I find this recording to be quite fine... very "musical" and fluid without ever becoming too fast as some performances do... or fail to suggest the darker or more somber elements of the suites.


Yes, this is my favorite probably. Personally, I find both Fournier and Casals to be dry, but I do love Rostropovich- his is very Romantic, yet powerful.


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## hpowders

Rostropovich is anachronistically heavy and Romantic. Disappointing.

I still find Ma's first version to be the most satisfying.


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## Pugg

Omicron9 said:


> Thanks, Pugg; I'll have to check it out. The one I quoted comes with a DVD documentary; quite fascinating.


My pleasure, please, let me know if you like them.


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## qanik

agree with this choice wholeheartedly, if only one could get the Casals in the recording quality of the Rostropovich but my guilty pleasure is the double bass recording of the transposed cello suites by Paolo Pandolfo his music you can taste


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## AlexS

How fortunate we are to have so many wonderful and varied recordings to choose from, each with their own attractions and emphases. Current favourite is Richard Tunnicliffe.


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## Pugg

AlexS said:


> How fortunate we are to have so many wonderful and varied recordings to choose from, each with their own attractions and emphases. Current favourite is Richard Tunnicliffe.


Very, very fortunate, something for everyone I would say.


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## Oldhoosierdude

Can't stop myself. Picked up the Yo-Yo Ma, Inspired by Bach set for a few bucks. Which is his set I prefer. 

I do a lot of driving for work and will stop at a goodwill or thrift shop if I can. There are always cds. I've made some good purchases.


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## Pugg

Oldhoosierdude said:


> Can't stop myself. Picked up the Yo-Yo Ma, Inspired by Bach set for a few bucks. Which is his set I prefer.
> 
> I do a lot of driving for work and will stop at a goodwill or thrift shop if I can. There are always cds. I've made some good purchases.


I do think we all know that feeling.....


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## Kieran

Nice thread. I finally found some Bach I really want to get into and came here for suggestions. Plenty to mull over! :tiphat:


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## Pugg

Kieran said:


> Nice thread. I finally found some Bach I really want to get into and came here for suggestions. Plenty to mull over! :tiphat:


Mind the wallet.....


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## Kieran

Pugg said:


> Mind the wallet.....


Oh, I'll only buy one version, no need to be hasty! Jacqueline DuPre was recommended to me, but I couldn't find it in town this morning.

Interestingly, didn't see her mentioned here, which suggests she may not have a set of discs for this work...


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## jegreenwood

Kieran said:


> Oh, I'll only buy one version, no need to be hasty! Jacqueline DuPre was recommended to me, but I couldn't find it in town this morning.
> 
> Interestingly, didn't see her mentioned here, which suggests she may not have a set of discs for this work...


I have the EMI box set of her recordings. It includes a couple of the Suites, but not the entire cycle.


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

Kieran said:


> Oh, I'll only buy one version,


You say that now. Let us know in a year or so.

I had the Rostropovich version for a long time as my only one. Then I heard some others on my Prime account and started exploring. Rostropovich is now gone, sold or given away, along with some others I acquired and didn't like as well in the long run. Right now I have versions by Yo-Yo Ma (1997 set), the partial set by Meyer, Fournier, Gendron, Queyras, Blysma, Linden, and Lipkind. Most likely I will give away the Blysma and Linden sets. There is nothing wrong with them, other than they don't stand out for me like the others, plus I like giving beautiful music away to friends and family.

A lot of people don't much care for the Lipkind or Meyer interpretations, but I do. So much different from the others that I find them refreshing. Ma gets slammed on TC by some but I think he is a master in this work as are Fournier and Gendron. Queyras has astounding sound. If I had to choose only one, though, it would still be Gendron.


----------



## AlexS

Oldhoosierdude said:


> Ma gets slammed on TC by some but I think he is a master in this work as are Fournier and Gendron. Queyras has astounding sound. If I had to choose only one, though, it would still be Gendron.


Gendron is about the cheapest set secondhand on Amazon these days - astonishing value. And I agree with you about Fournier, Ma, Queyras.
Having listened to little else than these cello suites for the last three months, my favourite recording is often the one I'm currently listening to. But I think truly outstanding is the set by Nina Kotova, on the Stradivarius which Jacqueline du Pre used to use.


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## Oldhoosierdude

Wow. That's a lot of listening. 
Presto classical lists about 200 offerings of Cello Suites. Many of the cellist I've not heard of.


AlexS said:


> Gendron is about the cheapest set secondhand on Amazon these days - astonishing value. And I agree with you about Fournier, Ma, Queyras.
> Having listened to little else than these cello suites for the last three months, my favourite recording is often the one I'm currently listening to. But I think truly outstanding is the set by Nina Kotova, on the Stradivarius which Jacqueline du Pre used to use.


----------



## Mandryka

AlexS said:


> But I think truly outstanding is the set by Nina Kotova, on the Stradivarius which Jacqueline du Pre used to use.


Intuitive and animal. Deep cello. Thanks for pointing it out.


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## Kieran

Oldhoosierdude said:


> You say that now. Let us know in a year or so.


How correct you were! I bought the version by Janos Starker on Sony (RCA Red Seal), I think recorded in 1997? It's quite deliberate and ponderous, and slightly moody too, all of which I like, but I'll try the Gendron one too...

:tiphat:


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## dillonp2020

Casals is my favorite. Rostropovich is up there. For some reason, I'm not Yo-Yo Ma's greatest fan.


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## Marc

Pugg said:


> I like his 1998 recording even more.


And I prefer his 1992 recording.


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## premont

I tend to agree, but with hundred-and-fifty options it is not among my top ten, not even among my top twenty-five.


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## Marc

premont said:


> I tend to agree, but with hundred-and-fifty options it is not among my top ten, not even among my top twenty-five.


I haven't listened to all 150 , and of the probably dozen-or-so that I do know, I wouldn't know which one to pick really. But I do know that I like Schiff very much, and Zeuthen, both of Bylsma's recordings, and Badiarov on viola pomposa cq violoncello da spalla, all of them for various reasons which are not that easy to describe. Schiff makes me want to dance, either a quick dance or a slow one, and I like to shake my booty once in a while, so there you go.


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## Forss

I'm rather surprised no one has mentioned Torleif Thedéen? His recording of the suites is _quite_ remarkable (especially the Sarabande's), and he was also Ingmar Bergman's choice for the latter's films.


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## Oldhoosierdude

Honestly, you could practically close your eyes and pick one. The issues I have with any one recording are minor. I purchased Gendron after listening to a few dozen on the free spotify trial. It seemed to sound right to me. Fournier and Ma I purchased because the price was right and I was in the right place. I liked them enough to spend $4 or $5. Queyras was a free download for me or I probably wouldn't have it. I've purchased others and given them away. Most likely I'll keep doing that. But I'll keep the Gendron set.


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## Portamento

I like fornier - he is the best "old-school " type cellist that records the Bach suites .


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## Pugg

Marc said:


> And I prefer his 1992 recording.


It's fine by me, so many people so many choices. :tiphat:


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## jegreenwood

Forss said:


> I'm rather surprised no one has mentioned Torleif Thedéen? His recording of the suites is _quite_ remarkable (especially the Sarabande's), and he was also Ingmar Bergman's choice for the latter's films.


I don't have that, but I was listening to his disc of the three Britten suites just the other day.


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## premont

Marc said:


> I haven't listened to all 150 , and of the probably dozen-or-so that I do know, I wouldn't know which one to pick really. But I do know that I like Schiff very much, and Zeuthen, both of Bylsma's recordings, and Badiarov on viola pomposa cq violoncello da spalla, all of them for various reasons which are not that easy to describe. Schiff makes me want to dance, either a quick dance or a slow one, and I like to shake my booty once in a while, so there you go.


Nor have I listened to 150 complete, only to about 80 - and one or two suites from the rest. My experience is none-the-less, that most of them are worth listening to. This makes strict recommendations difficult.


----------



## Star

What about Casals- the original master of these works


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## Tchaikov6

Star said:


> What about Casals- the original master of these works


As I said in Post #88, I found Casals to be a bit dry and uninspired. But then again, I used to find Bach and Mahler's music dry and uninspired also- so perhaps Casals will grow on me.


----------



## Marc

premont said:


> [...] My experience is [...], that most of them are worth listening to. This makes strict recommendations difficult.


So far, that's my experience, too. 
The music is great, and the musicians take their task seriously.


----------



## Mandryka

Tchaikov6 said:


> As I said in Post #88, I found Casals to be a bit dry and uninspired. But then again, I used to find Bach and Mahler's music dry and uninspired also- so perhaps Casals will grow on me.


I think he's better in the preludes and sarabandes, sometimes he's outstanding (prelude to 6 for example)


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## Oldhoosierdude

I have the spotify trial thing.
They have quite a few. I pick a suite from a different artist to play when I drive for work. And I drive half my work day.
There are a very few that stand out, a few I really don't like, and the rest ok. Some of the standard and revered favorites I simply don't care for. Excess playing noise bugs me most.


premont said:


> Nor have I listened to 150 complete, only to about 80 - and one or two suites from the rest. My experience is none-the-less, that most of them are worth listening to. This makes strict recommendations difficult.


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

If you want a good but cheap download try this one. $5.99 on Amazon or Google Play. I don't know what's up with this recording. There are no reviews to be found. The user reviews on Amazon are for another artist. All i could find out is that its a 2009 release. I think it is good playing all around. I haven't purchased it, but i am enjoying it on the spotify. Cellist is Klaus-Peter Hahn. (Another fake credit guy?)


----------



## premont

Oldhoosierdude said:


> If you want a good but cheap download try this one. $5.99 on Amazon or Google Play. I don't know what's up with this recording. There are no reviews to be found. The user reviews on Amazon are for another artist. All i could find out is that its a 2009 release. I think it is good playing all around. I haven't purchased it, but i am enjoying it on the spotify. Cellist is Klaus-Peter Hahn. (Another fake credit guy?)
> View attachment 94733


Klaus-Peter Hahn (1944-2003) was a real existing cellist and conductor. 
Among others he was for some time a member of the Stuttgarter Klaviertrio.


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## ToneDeaf&Senile

I own two sets, Henri Honegger of LP and Lynn Harrell on CD. While I enjoy both, Harrell is my hands-down favorite. Sadly, I wore out disk 2, which now mistracks to the point that it is now unlistenable. For what it's worth, in days long past I routinely butchered several of the sonatas on euphonium. (To my dubious credit, I played from actual cello parts rather than brass transcriptions. No, I didn't attempt to play 'em in public. Even I had enough sense to avoid that embarrassment.)


----------



## jegreenwood

ToneDeaf&Senile said:


> I own two sets, Henri Honegger of LP and Lynn Harrell on CD. While I enjoy both, Harrell is my hands-down favorite. Sadly, I wore out disk 2, which now mistracks to the point that it is now unlistenable. For what it's worth, in days long past I routinely butchered several of the sonatas on euphonium. (To my dubious credit, I played from actual cello parts rather than brass transcriptions. No, I didn't attempt to play 'em in public. Even I had enough sense to avoid that embarrassment.)


I continue to butcher them on clarinet. What I find remarkable is that I can do so over and over again and the music, itself, remains beautiful.


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## wkasimer

I have a ridiculous number of recordings of the Bach suites - if forced to narrow it down to a reasonable number, I'd keep Queyras, Geringas (his third recording), Wispelwey's second one, Bylsma's first, Heinrich Schiff, Pergamenschikow, Bagratuni, and Kirshbaum.


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## Oldhoosierdude

Tried this one and liked it. Pay attention to the 5th suite Sarabande where she has the audacity to pluck! How dare she impose her female wiles on the sacred suites! It's cool and creative. Loved it.


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## sjwright

Maisky is the best.


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## wkasimer

sjwright said:


> Maisky is the best.


Which recording?


----------



## Mandryka

I've just been listening to Wispelway 3, in 1012. There's a moment in the allemande, a couple of minutes before the end, which is unbelievably rapt.


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## Oldhoosierdude

I heard this one recently. Another good one!

And I heard this one.








I know some people don't like the period instrument thing. I have no opinion on it. However this cello sounds really great. And the dude can play it.


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## Omicron9

I recently heard the new set by Demenga on ECM. I was prepared to love it, as in my book ECM can do no wrong. Until this. My opinion here, and only that: I thought the performance was very safe to uninspired, and there were some distracting intonation issues. 

-09


----------



## wkasimer

Omicron9 said:


> I recently heard the new set by Demenga on ECM. I was prepared to love it, as in my book ECM can do no wrong. Until this. My opinion here, and only that: I thought the performance was very safe to uninspired, and there were some distracting intonation issues.


Interesting. That isn't how I hear this set, which I think has an improvisatory, even conversational quality. I didn't notice any significant intonation issues (Demenga plays without much vibrato), and I love the sound of his cello.


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## Mandryka

I'm very curious to know whether anyone enjoys the recording by Sadao Udagawa.:devil:


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## wkasimer

Mandryka said:


> I'm very curious to know whether anyone enjoys the recording by Sadao Udagawa.:devil:


Yecch. I listened to a bit on Spotify. I could barely make it through the Prelude to Suite #2.


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## Omicron9

wkasimer said:


> Interesting. That isn't how I hear this set, which I think has an improvisatory, even conversational quality. I didn't notice any significant intonation issues (Demenga plays without much vibrato), and I love the sound of his cello.


That's cool; the recording quality is the usual ECM excellence. The intonation issues I hear are in his double-stops. Not all, but enough to be distracting and turn me off from this version. There are other versions I greatly prefer over his, even if the intonation wasn't an issue. E.g., Starker (Mercury Living Presence), Wispelway (3rd cycle), Bylsma. Just personal preferences; not a Grand Declaration of Greatness. 

Regards,
-09


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## wkasimer

Omicron9 said:


> That's cool; the recording quality is the usual ECM excellence. The intonation issues I hear are in his double-stops. Not all, but enough to be distracting and turn me off from this version. There are other versions I greatly prefer over his, even if the intonation wasn't an issue. E.g., Starker (Mercury Living Presence), Wispelway (3rd cycle), Bylsma. Just personal preferences; not a Grand Declaration of Greatness.


Well, two out of three ain't bad . I feel about Starker as you do about Demenga - great sonics, dull performance. Love Bylsma I and Wispelwey (both 2 & 3).

BTW, Alisa Weilerstein is playing all six here in Boston next year.


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## ramiot

I have enjoyed Starker for many years (Mercury Living Presence) and Pablo Casals (EMI Classics) but lately I listen mostly to Joachim Eijlander (Navis Classics SACD DSF 256), I find the quality of the sound makes a real difference. I also enjoy Maurice Gendron's version (A little bit faster rythm)and Pieter Wispelwey, both in Flac 16-44, but sound wise, the Eijlander is hard to beat...


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## Josquin13

Those are some of my favorites too. In a fire, I'd grab Starker Mercury (haven't heard his later RCA set), Gendron, Fournier, Blysma I (don't know Bylsma 2), Wispelway 1 & 2 (haven't heard his 3rd recording), and not mentioned, Frans Helmerson, & on some days my top favorite, Ophélie Gaillard 2 (haven't heard Gaillard's first recording):



















Among versions I'd like to hear at some point, Tanya Tomkins, Ophelie Gaillard 1, David Watkin, and Jean-Guihen Queyras.


----------



## ramiot

ramiot said:


> I have enjoyed Starker for many years (Mercury Living Presence) and Pablo Casals (EMI Classics) but lately I listen mostly to Joachim Eijlander (Navis Classics SACD DSF 256), I find the quality of the sound makes a real difference. I also enjoy Maurice Gendron's version (A little bit faster rythm)and Pieter Wispelwey, both in Flac 16-44, but sound wise, the Eijlander is hard to beat...


This post has brought me me to listen to all my recordings of the Suites and I must admit the 1990 recording by Wispelwey is very good. The 2012 recording of Wispelwey, I did not like as much. So I'm a little hesitant to give my best recording as of now because the Janos Starker recording under Mercury Living Presence (2004) has me wondering... For the time being ( I've just ordered the Fournier's version and Ophélie Gaillard) I'll go with Janos Starker but I may change again...


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## Mandryka

Josquin13 said:


>


This is his second recording, much better vibrato than on BIS.


----------



## Josquin13

Mandryka writes, "This is his second recording, much better vibrato than on BIS."

Actually, Helmerson had never recorded a complete set of the 6 Bach Cello Suites before, until the latest set. Although, in the mid-1970s, he did record the 3rd & 5th Suites, which were released on two separate BIS LPs (coupled with music by other composers). Then, later, with the emergence of the CD, BIS released these two recordings on a single CD in 1992: https://www.amazon.com/Bach-J-S-Cel...&sr=1-4-catcorr&keywords=frans+helmerson+Bach. My point being that Helmerson made these Bach recordings very early in his career, long before the influence of the period movement had become more widespread, or mainstream. Indeed, the mid-1970s isn't that far removed from the time when Bruggen, Schroeder, Leonhardt & the Kuijkens were still traveling around the Netherlands in a VW van, giving concerts.

Yet I don't recall Helmerson using more vibrato on his early Bach recordings (& remember liking the playing), but if you've compared them, it doesn't surprise me, as I wouldn't expect them to sound HIP. Or, are you saying that you think he uses more vibrato on the more recent Bach recordings, & prefer that? (which would surprise me).

I also remember that when Helmerson's first BIS recordings came out on LP (which included a terrific Dvorak Cello Concerto with Jaarvi & the Gothenburg S.O.), he was being talked about as a major new talent. I think of him as a musician's musician. & I also admire that he has championed the music of such contemporary composers as Aulis Sallinen & Arvo Pärt.

https://www.amazon.com/Sallinen-Sin...id=1524172611&sr=1-1&keywords=frans+helmerson
https://www.amazon.com/Pärt-Symphon...id=1524172611&sr=1-6&keywords=frans+helmerson

ramiot--I re-listened to parts of Ophélie Gaillard's 2nd recording again the other night, and don't think you'll be disappointed with your new purchase. She's remarkable in this music. What a talent.


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## Mandryka

Yes I listened to the prelude of the second suite from Helmeson, the new recording and on BIS. I found the BIS unpleasant because of the vibrato. Possibly a question of the quality of the vibrato rather than quantity, as it were.


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## ramiot

Josquin13 said:


> Mandryka writes, "This is his second recording, much better vibrato than on BIS."
> 
> ramiot--I re-listened to parts of Ophélie Gaillard's 2nd recording again the other night, and don't think you'll be disappointed with your new purchase. She's remarkable in this music. What a talent.


Thank you, I received it and listen to it last night, I must admit that it is a great recording from a great artist. It will now rank as my no 1 along with Wispelwey and Janos Starker. She offers a 'softer' delivery/sound then Starker, but depending on my mood, I could rank the 3 of them as my No 1 recording of the Suites. Thanks for the recommandation to Joskin 13...

Robert


----------



## Josquin13

Mandryka said:


> Yes I listened to the prelude of the second suite from Helmeson, the new recording and on BIS. I found the BIS unpleasant because of the vibrato. Possibly a question of the quality of the vibrato rather than quantity, as it were.


Okay, I've listened to both Helmerson recordings of the Prelude, and I agree. He only uses a tad less vibrato on the later recording of the Prelude to the Cello Suite No. 2, it's very slight, but the playing is so much more fluid & smoother, and the vibrato better integrated. So yes, I would agree that it's the "quality" of his vibrato that has changed, & not so much the "quantity" of it. I suppose Helmerson may be a tad more HIP influenced on the later recording, but not in any pronounced way.

(By the way, obviously I made an oversight on my earlier post. As the 2nd Cello Suite is also included on Helmerson's earlier BIS recording, along with the 3rd & 5th Suites. Unfortunately, I can't correct it now.)

I also listened to how several of the older cellists played the Prelude, and was surprised, as they sure do use a ton of vibrato. I hadn't listened to these recordings in a good while, and I can't say that I overly cared for what they do with the Prelude. For example, I normally like Maurice Gendron as a cellist (or at least I thought I did), but his use of vibrato in the Prelude seems excessive to me now. Here's a clip:






For others to compare, here's Helmerson's later recording of the Prelude:






and for a stronger contrast, here are two HIP performances of the Prelude, from Jean-Guihen Queyras & Ophélie Gaillard (her first recording?):










Times have certainly changed.

The more I hear of Queyras in the Bach Cello Suites, the more I like his playing. I'm going to purchase that set I think.

ramiot writes, "Thank you, I received it and listen to it last night, I must admit that it is a great recording from a great artist... Thanks for the recommandation to Joskin 13"

I'm pleased to hear that. You're most welcome.


----------



## Merl

Josquin13 said:


> The more I hear of Queyras in the Bach Cello Suites, the more I like his playing. I'm going to purchase that set I think..


Whilst I only own about 10 sets on disc and (as I said previously in the thread) of those Starker (RCA), Ma (83) and Schiff are my 3 go-to sets, there's a pile of excellent recordings that are close to those and 3 which I now feel are probably on par with those in my estimation. Amongst my favourites are Gendron, Bailley, Coppey, Gentile, Nyffenegger, Lipkind, Rostrpovich, Seleznev, Shaffran, Watkin, Wispelwey 3, Isserlis and Gailliard and all for a variety of reasons. I probably have way over 50 recordings of the suites digitally but these are ones I really rate above the rest (for now). Others may join he list soon (and some may disappear - Lol).

However Queyras, Watkin and, particularly, Haimovitz now join my very top rank recordings. Just superb.

Oh, and a special mention to Rysanov's wonderful set transcribed for the viola. I love it.


----------



## agoukass

I have the recordings by Tortelier and Rostropovich as well as the first two suites with Jacqueline Du Pre. My main problem with Rostropovich is that he recorded the suites too late in his career. While there are many good things about his recording, I always felt that it was a little bit on the heavy and aggressive side.

I love Tortelier's performance of the suites. The dance movements dance in a way that they don't with Rostropovich and you feel that the cellist takes great joy in playing these works. 

The Du Pre recording of the first two suites is from early in her career when she was still a student. It is a very mixed bag and her direct approach to music doesn't work well for Bach. As a matter of fact, the interpretation feels rather romantic to me.


----------



## JRI

My only recording of Bach's Cello Suites are by Pablo Casals,but I will be adding Yo-Yo Ma very soon.


----------



## wkasimer

agoukass said:


> I have the recordings by Tortelier and Rostropovich as well as the first two suites with Jacqueline Du Pre. My main problem with Rostropovich is that he recorded the suites too late in his career. While there are many good things about his recording, I always felt that it was a little bit on the heavy and aggressive side.


You might be interested to know that Rostropovich recorded the suites much earlier, when he was only 28:









It's a bit quicker and lighter, but I don't think that age was the problem - I just don't think that Rostrpovich had much of an affinity for Bach. I'm not a big fan of either set.


----------



## wkasimer

JRI said:


> My only recording of Bach's Cello Suites are by Pablo Casals,but I will be adding Yo-Yo Ma very soon.


You might want to sample Ma via Spotify or other streaming service, if you can. He plays immaculately and is beautifully recorded, but after listening to Casals (not to mention the dozens of recordings made over the past five decades), Ma is dull as dishwater.


----------



## premont

wkasimer said:


> You might be interested to know that Rostropovich recorded the suites much earlier, when he was only 28:
> 
> It's a bit quicker and lighter, but I don't think that age was the problem - *I just don't think that Rostropovich had much of an affinity for Bach*. I'm not a big fan of either set.


Yes, this is certainly the heart of the matter.


----------



## premont

agoukass said:


> I love Tortelier's performance of the suites. The dance movements dance in a way that they don't with Rostropovich and you feel that the cellist takes great joy in playing these works.


Tortellier's first or second recording? What you describe sounds like the first.


----------



## Bulldog

wkasimer said:


> You might want to sample Ma via Spotify or other streaming service, if you can. He plays immaculately and is beautifully recorded, but after listening to Casals (not to mention the dozens of recordings made over the past five decades), Ma is dull as dishwater.


I don't find either Ma set to be dull. However, it is a wise move to sample any recording one is considering.


----------



## kyjo

I'll put in a recommendation for *Zuill Bailey*'s recordings - energetic and fresh yet big-boned. His are possibly my favorite recordings of the suites, though I haven't heard them all. FWIW, I'm not a fan of Ma's recordings. His phrasing seems too erratic to me.


----------



## Merl

kyjo said:


> I'll put in a recommendation for *Zuill Bailey*'s recordings - energetic and fresh yet big-boned. His are possibly my favorite recordings of the suites, though I haven't heard them all. FWIW, I'm not a fan of Ma's recordings. His phrasing seems too erratic to me.


I really like Bailey's recording of the Cello Suites. Lots of power, passion and superbly recorded but I also love Ma (first recording) for very different reasons (graceful, romantic). Like any work it's nice to have very different styles of performances to suit a specific mood.


----------



## DavidA

I've got Fournier and Casals. Bit of class in both


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## eternum1968

In my opinion, Fournier was the greatest


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

Yo-Yo Ma is releasing his third, and he says final, recording of the Suites this summer.









Six Evolutions - Bach: Cello Suites - Yo-Yo Ma (cello) -

Release Date: 17th Aug 2018
Catalogue No: 19075854652
Label: Sony


----------



## Vahe Sahakian

I have Yo-Yo-Ma first and second Bach cello suites, I much prefer the first, I will skip the third.


----------



## Guest

Jaap van Linden


----------



## Guest

Oldhoosierdude said:


> Yo-Yo Ma is releasing his third, and he says final, recording of the Suites this summer.
> 
> View attachment 105223
> 
> 
> Six Evolutions - Bach: Cello Suites - Yo-Yo Ma (cello) -
> 
> Release Date: 17th Aug 2018
> Catalogue No: 19075854652
> Label: Sony


6 Evolutions? Just calling it, "six suites for cello unaccompanied" is inadequate, apparently. I find it mildly annoying when performers make it about them, rather than the music, even as a marketing ploy.

I will be sitting this one out. I have his first traversal (issued when it was still "Columbia"), which is quite nice and I have enough recordings of this set of pieces to last several lifetimes.


----------



## wkasimer

Vahe Sahakian said:


> I have Yo-Yo-Ma first and second Bach cello suites, I much prefer the first, I will skip the third.


I've heard both of the earlier traversals. They're very well played, but lack imagination or personality. I'll probably check out the new one via Spotify, but am very unlikely to buy it. I'll take Schiff, Queyras, Wispelwey, Thedeen, Bengtsson, Kirshbaum, and several others over Ma any day.

BTW, I'll be seeing Colin Carr play all six in a recital in Rockport, Massachusetts next week, and Alisa Weilerstein doing the same at Jordan Hall in the spring, the latter part of the Boston Celebrity Series.


----------



## Mandryka

wkasimer said:


> BTW, I'll be seeing Colin Carr play all six in a recital in Rockport, Massachusetts next week,


I hope you'll post your impressions of the concert


----------



## premont

wkasimer said:


> I've heard both of the earlier traversals. They're very well played, but lack imagination or personality. I'll probably check out the new one via Spotify, but am very unlikely to buy it. I'll take Schiff, Queyras, Wispelwey, Thedeen, Bengtsson, Kirshbaum, and several others over Ma any day.


Can't disagree about this.



wkasimer said:


> BTW, I'll be seeing Colin Carr play all six in a recital in Rockport, Massachusetts next week, and Alisa Weilerstein doing the same at Jordan Hall in the spring, the latter part of the Boston Celebrity Series.


I think Colin Carr is one of the most interesting performers of these works these days, so I am also curious to hear about the recital.


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

Poor old Yo-Yo, gets little love round these parts. 

I will listen to his new release first before considering a purchase. I have his two earlier recordings and quite like them. There are so many good recordings of this work that it is hard to find a favorite. I do know of several I don't at all care for, some of them are raved about and I won't mention them. My biggest turn off for a recording is the excess noises some of the soloist make while playing. They all make playing noise, that's expected, but some of them are the Glenn Gould's of the cello and distract from the music. Talk about making the music about them! Who knows maybe Bach was a mumbler too.


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

Who has this one? (not me) It goes for a premium price if you can find it. Supposedly released on cd at one time. I read about it and thought it was interesting. I had opportunity to listen to most of it. Interesting from a historical perspective but I wouldn't purchase unless it was bargain basement.


----------



## premont

Oldhoosierdude said:


> Who has this one? (not me) It goes for a premium price if you can find it. Supposedly released on cd at one time. I read about it and thought it was interesting. I had opportunity to listen to most of it. Interesting from a historical perspective but I wouldn't purchase unless it was bargain basement.
> 
> View attachment 105295


Here:

https://forgottenrecords.com/en/Clement--Bach--717.html

Yes, incidentally I listened to this a week ago. Interesting from a historical perspective, but not much else.


----------



## philoctetes

Just listened to Phoebe Carrai yesterday, still tops for me. She rocks.


----------



## wkasimer

premont said:


> Here:
> 
> https://forgottenrecords.com/en/Clement--Bach--717.html
> 
> Yes, incidentally I listened to this a week ago. Interesting from a historical perspective, but not much else.


Other than pointing out how much cello playing has improved over the past half century, it wasn't even that interesting...


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

philoctetes said:


> Just listened to Phoebe Carrai yesterday, still tops for me. She rocks.


I found that one on the YouTube. I'll give it a listen. Great thing about the Suites, there's always another good one you haven't heard.


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

Baron Scarpia said:


> 6 Evolutions? Just calling it, "six suites for cello unaccompanied" is inadequate, apparently. I find it mildly annoying when performers make it about them, rather than the music, even as a marketing ploy.


Actually, the original title may be unknown. The oldest known title information from the Wikipedia - "The title given on the cover of the Anna Magdalena Bach manuscript was Suites à Violoncello Solo senza Basso (Suites for cello solo without bass)." So I guess you could say everyone who doesn't use this title or the possibility lost and unknown title could be making it about them.

Most likely with Ma's latest title it is about the publisher and or the artist wanting to have no confusion between the three different recordings. I agree though, Six Evolutionists as well as Inspired by Bach seems like odd title choices. I was originally concerned that Inspired by Bach was some variation on the Suites and not the actual work. Strange wording choices.


----------



## San Antone

Here lately, I've been listening to *Lipkind* and *Demenga*.

Lipkind is very expressive and the recorded acoustic is nicely accomplished to my ears. Demenga recorded them twice, for the earlier set each suite was coupled with 20th century works, which for some constituted a distraction but for me an enjoyable program. His latest version was released either early this year or late last year, I discovered it this year. I originally had thought that they had merely collected the prior performances in a box, but it turned out that these are new performances. His interpretation and recorded acoustic is dryer than Lipkind.

I enjoy both, along with many others.


----------



## Mandryka

In the booklet essay Lipkind writes 


> The present recording is the first of several volumes to be released under the title Single-voice Polyphony. Also known as Latente (latent) or Schein (deceptive) polyphony among German theorists, this term denotes the mental co-existence of multiple "voices" within a single musical line. This enchanting quality of our "inner ear" - a quality that needs to be developed and cultivated - is a prerequisite for contrapuntal awareness and polyphonic hearing. In fact, single-voice polyphony is an indivisible part of writing a good melody and an imminent aspect of linearity in music in general. This aspect was one of my main interests which led to this radical occupation with the cello suites.
> 
> The realization that a single melody contains polyphonic aspects with- in itself was (and still is) fundamental to the correct understanding of voice- leading as the Bach dynasty of musicians learned and practiced it. It is also an invaluable tool for developing a unified outlook on "polyphony" as a musical as well as a global (social, psychological, psycho-acoustical ...) phenomenon. Single-voice polyphony or, as Yizhak Sadai terms it, melodic polyphony, is more than a technical term. It is a fundamental facet of any musical tissue. It used to be a branch of musical analysis exploring the relationship between simultaneously present voices, which are innerly heard within one melody. The splitting, merging, interweaving, and clashing of those voices brought about the early study of counterpoint.
> 
> The realization that a single melody contains polyphonic aspects within itself was (and still is) fundamental to the correct understanding of voiceleading as the Bach dynasty of musicians learned and practiced it. . .


Who are these other composers who wrote single voiced polyphony? Lipkind is influenced by Izhak Sadai, who has a book called _Harmony in its systemic and phenomenological aspects._ Has anyone read it? Is Izhak Sadai a serious academic with peer reviewed research?

Another thing Lipkind touches on is an idea I've heard several times, from Wispelwey and Butt amongst others, that the six suites are in fact two sets of three - that the aims and nature of the first three are so different from 4, 5 and 6 that it's a mistake to consider them as a single collection.


----------



## premont

Mandryka said:


> *Who are these other composers who wrote single voiced polyphony? *Lipkind is influenced by Izhak Sadai, who has a book called _Harmony in its systemic and phenomenological aspects._ Has anyone read it? Is Izhak Sadai a serious academic with peer reviewed research?


Ligety at least, vol.2 of the single voiced polyphony series contains his sonata for solo cello.



Mandryka said:


> Another thing Lipkind touches on is an idea I've heard several times, from Wispelwey and Butt amongst others, that the six suites are in fact two sets of three - that the aims and nature of the first three are so different from 4, 5 and 6 that it's a mistake to consider them as a single collection.


An example of hungry for sensation but useless formalism. Whether they were meant as one or two collections doesn't make us any wiser.


----------



## Mandryka

premont said:


> Ligety at least, vol.2 of the single voiced polyphony series contains his sonata for solo cello.
> 
> .


But the essay makes it sound as though single voiced polyphony was a baroque idea, he talks as though it's central to the music of "the Bach dynasty"


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## premont

Mandryka said:


> But the essay makes it sound as though single voiced polyphony was a baroque idea, he talks as though it's central to the music of "the Bach dynasty"


Well. epigones are apparently included.


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## wkasimer

Oldhoosierdude said:


> I found that one on the YouTube. I'll give it a listen. Great thing about the Suites, there's always another good one you haven't heard.


Indeed - here are a couple more worth hearing, by cellists that you may not be aware of, Rocco Filippini and Erling Blöndal Bengtsson:

















Both are beautifully played and recorded.


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## Mandryka

You prefer this

View attachment 105555


to this?


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## premont

They have different timings (the first lasting 143 min.. the second 130 min.), so they are probably different recordings. I only know the first.

Edit: I have ordered the second.


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## Mandryka

premont said:


> They have different timings (the first lasting 143 min.. the second 130 min.), so they are probably different recordings. I only know the first.
> 
> Edit: I have ordered the second.


Yes they are different, they sound interesting, the second very.


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## wkasimer

Mandryka said:


> Yes they are different, they sound interesting, the second very.


I haven't heard the second one.


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## Mandryka

wkasimer said:


> I haven't heard the second one.


Well I have started to listen and I like what I hear very much! Or rather, it's characterful, there's new things to think about.


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## Guest

Talking about forgotten old records, before Fournier, DGG/Archiv Production had another recording in their catalog, recorded in 1954 by Enrico Mainardi. Anyone heard it? I may have had some of it on vinyl, but it got purged when I moved. I see that there is a stupendously expensive set of Mainardi recordings from DGG ($100 for probably 6CD's worth of music).


----------



## premont

Baron Scarpia said:


> Talking about forgotten old records, before Fournier, DGG/Archiv Production had another recording in their catalog, recorded in 1954 by Enrico Mainardi. Anyone heard it? I may have had some of it on vinyl, but it got purged when I moved. I see that there is a stupendously expensive set of Mainardi recordings from DGG ($100 for probably 6CD's worth of music).


Mainardi recorded the suites maybe three times. In the box (link below) one of the recordings is contained (not sure which one), The interpretation is very fine and listenable and not at all dated.

https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/8358787--the-cello-champion


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## Guest

Yes, Decca 1950, Archiv Production 1955, Eurodisc 1963.


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## Mandryka

What do you think of this one? Annlies Schmidt -- a friend of mine is very keen on it, I think it's not so expressive, so it divides opinion.


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## wkasimer

Mandryka said:


> Well I have started to listen and I like what I hear very much! Or rather, it's characterful, there's new things to think about.


I listened to a bit on Spotify, and was disappointed by the sound quality. The earlier one sounds better.


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## Oldhoosierdude

The Amazon and Google price for this worthwhile 21st century recording has dropped to & 5.99 US.


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## Guest

Mandryka said:


> View attachment 105565


I listened to the samples on that one after seeing ecstatic descriptions of the 6th suite somewhere or another. Seemed fine, but did not motivate me to acquire yet another recordings of these works. (I'm not sure how many recordings I have, probably about 10.)


----------



## wkasimer

premont said:


> Mainardi recorded the suites maybe three times. In the box (link below) one of the recordings is contained (not sure which one), The interpretation is very fine and listenable and not at all dated.


I've only heard the Archiv and Eurodisc recordings, and I'm afraid that I must disagree. He may have been an important cellist early in his career, but these recordings are really pretty dreadful. Mostly ridiculously slow and metronomic.

.


----------



## wkasimer

premont said:


> I think Colin Carr is one of the most interesting performers of these works these days, so I am also curious to hear about the recital.


So I saw Carr play the Bach suites (all six) at the Rockport Music Festival last night. The venue was really ideal - a small hall (I'm guessing it holds about 300 people) with a fairly lively but not overresonant acoustic:









I listened to his recording today, and I think that it gives a pretty accurate picture of the live performance I saw last night, although the recording doesn't really do justice to the beauty of his tone. He is technically accomplished, although he seemed to struggle a bit with the Prelude of the sixth suite (not surprising). He uses vibrato rather sparingly, mostly as an ornament. He plays with great flexibility of tempo, but not so much as to pull the music out of shape. I'd say that his playing falls somewhere between the dance-emphasized playing of Schiff and the rather freely interpreted musings of Wispelwey. Tempi were well judged and fairly "central" - I was glad that he didn't make a meal out of the Sarabandes, as some cellists do.

I really felt a contrast between the first four suites and the last two. The first four seemed lighter in mood; the last two, particularly the fifth, felt rather different, more serious and improvisatory - the first four movements of the fifth suite almost felt like a set of fantasias, rather than dance movements. Perhaps Carr felt the same - in the first half, he played the first three suites without pause (other than applause after each suite), without leaving the stage. In the second half, he took a short (around five minute) break between each of the last three suites.

Looking forward to hearing Weilerstein's Bach in the spring. I may also get to hear Queyras play three of the suites in November.


----------



## Mandryka

Baron Scarpia said:


> I listened to the samples on that one after seeing ecstatic descriptions of the 6th suite somewhere or another. Seemed fine, but did not motivate me to acquire yet another recordings of these works. (I'm not sure how many recordings I have, probably about 10.)


The other one I feel very positively about in the set is the 4th. I haven't bought it either.


----------



## Mandryka

wkasimer said:


> I listened to a bit on Spotify, and was disappointed by the sound quality. The earlier one sounds better.


The sound is very strange - I listen on Qobuz not Spotify, which in theory should have a better transfer. Can a cello sound like that? The original was an SACD from an audiophile label, so I guess the sound must be truthful more or less. In fact the sound was one of the things which really intrigued me, I don't know if this makes sense but somehow it sounds like a pencil drawing or an etching.

A review I found says this



> Registration is beautiful. The instrument is full and rich, with no emphatic environmental resonances and is repeated in the domestic environment as if it were heard not far from us. But it is the proper stamp of the cello that has been well captured. There are no long bass of some recordings, no lighter bass than others, nor an undue underlining of the smaller strings that often seem to define the are of an instrument, while more often than not they modify it. Here there is a cello of rare beauty and rare timbre fidelity


----------



## premont

wkasimer said:


> I've only heard the Archiv and Eurodisc recordings, and I'm afraid that I must disagree. He may have been an important cellist early in his career, but these recordings are really pretty dreadful. Mostly ridiculously slow and metronomic.
> 
> .


I am sorry, I do like it. Maybe it is the earlier Decca recording.


----------



## premont

wkasimer said:


> So I saw Carr play the Bach suites (all six) at the Rockport Music Festival last night. The venue was really ideal - a small hall (I'm guessing it holds about 300 people) with a fairly lively but not overresonant acoustic:
> 
> I listened to his recording today, and I think that it gives a pretty accurate picture of the live performance I saw last night, although the recording doesn't really do justice to the beauty of his tone.


Thanks for the report. I understand that his interpretations are rather consistent. This surprises me, as he seems to be a performer who emphasizes a certain degree of spontaneity.


----------



## Mandryka

Re Enrico Mainardi the ones here, from 1957, sound outstanding, the sound quality of the recording is a joy to hear. The interpretations are characterful and not without interest too.


----------



## RogerExcellent

Mandryka said:


> Re Enrico Mainardi the ones here, from 1957, sound outstanding, the sound quality of the recording is a joy to hear. The interpretations are characterful and not without interest too.
> 
> View attachment 105628


That is lovely, I have listened with partner and they enjoyed :cheers:


----------



## wkasimer

From your quote:



> Registration is beautiful. The instrument is full and rich, with no emphatic environmental resonances and is repeated in the domestic environment as if it were heard not far from us. But it is the proper stamp of the cello that has been well captured. There are no long bass of some recordings, no lighter bass than others, nor an undue underlining of the smaller strings that often seem to define the are of an instrument, while more often than not they modify it. Here there is a cello of rare beauty and rare timbre fidelity


To me, it sounded as though it was recorded in a closet, with the microphone about two feet from the cello's bridge. I like to hear some air around the cello's sound, maybe even a little room ambience.


----------



## wkasimer

premont said:


> Thanks for the report. I understand that his interpretations are rather consistent. This surprises me, as he seems to be a performer who emphasizes a certain degree of spontaneity.


Great performers sound spontaneous even when they've carefully planned every note and nuance.


----------



## Mandryka

wkasimer said:


> From your quote:
> 
> To me, it sounded as though it was recorded in a closet, with the microphone about two feet from the cello's bridge. I like to hear some air around the cello's sound, maybe even a little room ambience.


I've noticed a tendency to make recordings which sound like they're recorded from the performer's perspective, rather than the audience's. Gunnar Letzbor's solo Bach is like this, as is Beghin's Beethoven. I wonder if they're up to the same thing here.


----------



## wkasimer

wkasimer said:


> I saw Carr play the Bach suites (all six) at the Rockport Music Festival last night.
> 
> View attachment 105617


Apropos of nothing, I returned to Rockport yesterday to hear Carr and the Emerson Quartet play the Schubert Quintet D956. The first half of the program was Beethoven Op. 130 (without the Grosse Fuge, alas), which I thought was indifferently played (except for the slow movement, which was quite beautiful). The Schubert, though, was fantastic, one of the best chamber music performances I've ever heard.


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## endelbendel

Casals, of course.
Haimovitz arrests me each time it comes on radio. i do not own it.


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## Oldhoosierdude

I did something I don't often do. Paid full price for the new Yo-Yo Ma recording. I figured if it was really bad I could get Amazon to take it back.

I won't be asking that. It is quite good. Different from the other two he recorded but equal if not better. That's from an amateur listeners perspective, music experts may disagree, which would subsequently be lost on me.

Of all my recordings, I still like Gendron's rendition the best by the slightest margin. The others come in second.

Of course, if you already dislike Ma, as it seems some do, you will want to skip this one. Otherwise, I recommend it.


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## Oldhoosierdude

So, with the latest addition my current line up is

Fournier 1961
Gendron 1964
Ma 1982
Ma 1997
Queryas 2007
ter Linden 2007
Watkin 2015
Vardai 2017
Ma 2018


----------



## wkasimer

Oldhoosierdude said:


> I did something I don't often do. Paid full price for the new Yo-Yo Ma recording. I figured if it was really bad I could get Amazon to take it back.
> 
> I won't be asking that. It is quite good. Different from the other two he recorded but equal if not better. That's from an amateur listeners perspective, music experts may disagree, which would subsequently be lost on me.
> 
> Of all my recordings, I still like Gendron's rendition the best by the slightest margin. The others come in second.
> 
> Of course, if you already dislike Ma, as it seems some do, you will want to skip this one. Otherwise, I recommend it.
> 
> View attachment 106860


Like you, I ordered a new copy from Amazon (and "full price" was under $15). I'd heard a recent broadcast of Ma playing all six suites in Colorado, and while I wasn't crazy about the quality of the broadcast sound, Ma seemed a lot more engaged and expressive than usual.

I am decidedly NOT a fan of Yo Yo Ma. He is an excellent cellist technically, but I've simply heard too many performances and recordings that are uninspired and lackluster. But this Bach Suites recording features a different Yo Yo Ma, and is quite different from his previously two traversals. The 1982 and 1997 sets have always struck me as beautiful cello playing, but without much by way of imagination or depth of feeling. The new one isn't as tonally immaculate (I suspect that he's playing a different cello on the new recording), but his playing is much more varied, with a greater interest in expression via rubato and dynamic contrasts.

It probably won't reach the top of my Bach suites collection - the tops spots belong to Queyras, Wispelwey, and Schiff, followed by a boatload of fine performances by cellists both famous and virtually unknown. I haven't kept either of Ma's first two recordings, but I'm keeping the new one.


----------



## Merl

I'm gonna give the new Ma set a listen tomorrow. I love the first set and enjoyed the 2nd (but not as much). The above reviews have really piqued my interest to hear this new recording.


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

wkasimer said:


> , followed by a boatload of fine performances by cellists both famous and virtually unknown. I haven't kept either of Ma's first two recordings, but I'm keeping the new one.


That is the truth! There are plenty of good recordings out there (I've heard a few bad ones also).


----------



## Merl

All ive listened to, up to now, are the 1st and 2nd suites and im very impressed. These seem like much more characterful performances, rawer, less perfect and more honest. The sound of the fingerboard being tapped and slapped is quite striking and the closer miking is very welcome. Will listen to the rest tomorrow.


----------



## wkasimer

Here's another worthy recording of the suites, which I'm listening to courtesy of Spotify. The cellist, Dariusz Skoraczewski, is the principal cellist of the Baltimore SO.


----------



## tortkis

I am listening to Kivie Cahn-Lipman's New Focus recording these days and liking it a lot. The hybrid style - the modern cello using baroque bow and steel strings, played in HIP practice - sounds very nice to me. Bold and light, not too smooth or too thin. The sources are mixture of the copies by Anna Magdalena Bach, Kellner and anonymous copyists. The tempos are generally fast, but never hasty, decided based on alternative sources.


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

tortkis said:


> I am listening to Kivie Cahn-Lipman's New Focus recording these days and liking it a lot. The hybrid style - the modern cello using baroque bow and steel strings, played in HIP practice - sounds very nice to me. Bold and light, not too smooth or too thin. The sources are mixture of the copies by Anna Magdalena Bach, Kellner and anonymous copyists. The tempos are generally fast, but never hasty, decided based on alternative sources.


This is on Amazon Unlimited. Your description interested me and I've listened to a bit of it. What a lively and entertaining interpretation. Quicker than most but done expertly. Beautiful sound. There are just a lot of these fine recordings from lesser know artists.

I'll continue listening!


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## tortkis

The liner notes of Cahn-Lipman's recording provide some examples of different sources. In general, the copy of Anna Magdalena Bach has less information, simplifies rhythm figures, includes inaccuracies, even a missing beat. Regarding tempos, allegro is indicated for Suite 3 prelude in Grützmacher's edition, for example, while Kellner's copy, which is the oldest one, indicates presto - a big difference! No indication in Anna Magdalena's copy.


----------



## Mandryka

tortkis said:


> The liner notes of Cahn-Lipman's recording provide some examples of different sources. In general, the copy of Anna Magdalena Bach has less information, simplifies rhythm figures, includes inaccuracies, even a missing beat. Regarding tempos, allegro is indicated for Suite 3 prelude in Grützmacher's edition, for example, while Kellner's copy, which is the oldest one, indicates presto - a big difference! No indication in Anna Magdalena's copy.


I think this is a mainstream conservatory view but as far as I know more enlightened and thoughtful cellists have found that the Anna Magdalena Notebook's phrasing is revealing. This is, I think, Bylsma's claim.


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## Merl

Haimovitz uses the Anna Magdalena copy and I prefer it (or maybe it's just because I really like his way with the suites).


----------



## tortkis

Mandryka said:


> I think this is a mainstream conservatory view but as far as I know more enlightened and thoughtful cellists have found that the Anna Magdalena Notebook's phrasing is revealing. This is, I think, Bylsma's claim.


Is it about how slurs are indicated, or something else? Where can I find the Bylsma's writing about it? I would like to read it.


----------



## Mandryka

tortkis said:


> Is it about how slurs are indicated, or something else? Where can I find the Bylsma's writing about it? I would like to read it.


This is Bylsma's book, I haven't read it I should say

http://www.bylsmafencing.com/happy_few.html


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## tortkis

Thanks, but "no orders possible" ...


----------



## Mandryka

He may find one for you if you email him.


----------



## Merl

There's a short video here:

oops....sorry that's the wrong video!

However there's an interesting article here:

http://www.cello.org/Newsletter/Articles/jsbach.html

and further reading here:

http://www.georgcello.com/bachcellosuites.htm


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## tortkis

Merl said:


> There's a short video here:
> 
> oops....sorry that's the wrong video!
> 
> However there's an interesting article here:
> 
> http://www.cello.org/Newsletter/Articles/jsbach.html
> 
> and further reading here:
> 
> http://www.georgcello.com/bachcellosuites.htm


This is interesting. Is this a commonly supported view? I was wondering why the slurs in her copy are so different from the others.

_"Also, Anna Magdalena's copy looks already back on a certain time span of experience with musicians having played the Suites. 
Especially in the Prelude of Suite 1 we can discover a conscious moving away from the standard bowing of 3 slurred to a more complex pattern. 
This complex pattern works as written. Therefore I assume, J.S. Bach must have supervised the copying and instructed her to change the bowing due to him not being happy with the sound of the "original" bowing, after he had heard several cellists play his original version (see also: comment to Prelude No 1). 
Maybe her bowing of Prelude 1 can be seen as a second original draft of Bach."_ - Georg Martens


----------



## classfolkphile

A short interesting old blog (at least for those of us without a music education) from a Dutch cellist transplant to Edmonton, mostly about different cellos/bows and recording the Cello Suites. She co-founded Early Music Alberta and teaches there. She recorded the suites on four different instruments - a violoncello piccolo, a baroque cello, an 1870 Mirecourt, and a carbon fiber cello - with the fifth suite recorded on three of the instruments. There is a three CD set (on Spotify) and some Youtube excerpts. Haven't heard them yet.

http://josephinevanlier.blogspot.com

http://www.josephinevanlier.com


----------



## Dirge

J. S. BACH: Suites for cello solo, BWV 1007-1012 (c. 1720)
:: Roel Dieltiens [Accent '91] ~ not to be confused with his 2009 Etcetera remake

The slightly subdued dynamics of the playing and the warm and inviting (and slightly subdued) acoustics of the venue conspire to make it sounds as if Dieltiens is playing in the quiet solitude of his own home, so intimate and natural is the prevailing atmosphere of these recording sessions. If that suggests something introverted or relaxed (low in tension) or less than vital, however, that's not the case here, as intent listening reveals a compelling focus/sense of purpose and inner intensity underlying the proceedings-it's all very insidiously accomplished and cumulative in effect, aided and abetted by Dieltiens's unassumingly rich tone and disarmingly natural yet naturally seductive phrasing. Rhythmic playing is savvy and sophisticated, being flexible but not too flexible, always resiliently maintaining rhythmic/temporal integrity.

On the downside, attacks tend to be gentler than ideal, and Dieltiens tends not to dig into the lower notes as profoundly as he might, with the bottom end of the cello's range not being fully exploited and ideally impactful. The top end is gently rolled off in addition, owing in part to Dieltiens's plaintive-sounding cellos (he uses a period-style reproduction in the first five suites and a circa 1750 violoncello piccolo in the last) and in part to the gentle acoustics of Haarlem's Vereenigde Doopsgezinde Kerk (one of Accent's favorite recording venues). In compensation, Dieltiens coaxes some of the most richly beautiful midrange utterances from his cellos that you'll ever hear.

Although I'd cite Fournier [Archiv '60], Bylsma [RCA Seon '79], and Schiff [EMI '84] as variously more catholic and well-rounded favorites of mine, I like and listen to Dieltiens about as much as any of them and tend to think of it as my favorite "alternative" recording of the Suites.

Highlight: in Dieltiens's hands, the Sarabande of the Suite in D major is made to sound like the most beautiful thing in all of Bach:






By playing the opening naked and unadorned (shorn of the usual double stops), Dieltiens turns the diabolically delayed début of the double stops into a much-anticipated event-a goose bump-inducingly magical event as it turns out.

Here's a link to the playlist for entire set:


----------



## wkasimer

Dirge said:


> J. S. BACH: Suites for cello solo, BWV 1007-1012 (c. 1720)
> :: Roel Dieltiens [Accent '91] ~ not to be confused with his 2009 Etcetera remake


Thanks for the review. Although his musical instincts are excellent, I find Dieltiens - in both recordings - a little too laid back for my taste. Much of the problem may be the sound that he produces, which is both small scale, and IMO, rather unpleasant and nasal. I don't hear the tone as "unassumingly rich". I like a deeper, even gruffer cello sound than Dieltiens seems to prefer.


----------



## Dirge

wkasimer said:


> Thanks for the review. Although his musical instincts are excellent, I find Dieltiens - in both recordings - a little too laid back for my taste. Much of the problem may be the sound that he produces, which is both small scale, and IMO, rather unpleasant and nasal. I don't hear the tone as "unassumingly rich". I like a deeper, even gruffer cello sound than Dieltiens seems to prefer.


Well, as the saying goes, "One man's 'unassumingly rich' is another man's 'unpleasant and nasal.' "


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

Listening through this again. I quite like it. Yes, distinctive from his other two. More free, moe iterpretive, more feeling?

My favorite recording of this work is always the one I am currently listening to. So this one is my favorite.


----------



## Merl

Oldhoosierdude said:


> View attachment 107989
> 
> 
> Listening through this again. I quite like it. Yes, distinctive from his other two. More free, moe iterpretive, more feeling?
> 
> My favorite recording of this work is always the one I am currently listening to. So this one is my favorite.


The new Ma set is excellent. The best of his 3 sets. Recommended.


----------



## jjram1

Greetings to all from the San Francisco Bay Area. If you love Casals' Bach Cello Suites, there's a remarkable remastering that I would like to highly recommend. It offers the best sound I've ever heard for this 80-year old recording (including the one from Pristine Classical), but it's only available on the YouTube channel Classical Music/ /Reference Recordings. They offer a very large library of historic as well as more current recordings, but the former have been 'tweaked' by their sound engineer, ID'ed only as "AB." I think he (or she) is a genius because of the amazing results of the tweaking. The Casals Bach Suites are a wonderful example. When I first started listening, the cello's sound was so rich and had such bite and presence that I thought it was a modern recording they'd mistakenly labeled as the Casals. When I found out that it was really the Casals, it blew me away. See what you think: 



.


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## wkasimer

Just noticed this on the MDT website:

https://www.mdt.co.uk/bach-the-cello-suites-recomposed-peter-gregson-deutsche-grammophon-2cds.html









The prelude of Suite #1 is on Spotify. Sounds quite dreadful.


----------



## Ras

wkasimer said:


> Just noticed this on the MDT website:
> 
> https://www.mdt.co.uk/bach-the-cello-suites-recomposed-peter-gregson-deutsche-grammophon-2cds.html
> 
> View attachment 108347
> 
> 
> The prelude of Suite #1 is on Spotify. Sounds quite dreadful.


There is also a new release from ECM on viola :

*BACH Six Suites For Solo Viola, BWV 1007-1012. Kim Kashkashian. ECM New Series 2cds*

ECMs sale's speech:
>>The poetry and radiance of Bach's Cello Suites (BWV 1007-1012) are transfigured in these remarkable interpretations by Kim Kashkashian on viola, offering "a different kind of sombreness, a different kind of dazzlement" as annotator Paul Griffiths observes. 
One of the most compelling performers of classical and new music, Kashkashian has been hailed by The San Francisco Chronicle as "an artist who combines a probing, restless musical intellect with enormous beauty of tone." An ECM artist since 1985, she approaches Bach's music with the same commitment as revealed in her other solo recordings, the legendary Hindemith Sonatas album and the widely acclaimed (and Grammy-winning) account of Kurtág and Ligeti.<<<<


----------



## Eramire156

Sorry wrong thread


----------



## premont

wkasimer said:


> Just noticed this on the MDT website:
> 
> https://www.mdt.co.uk/bach-the-cello-suites-recomposed-peter-gregson-deutsche-grammophon-2cds.html
> 
> View attachment 108347
> 
> 
> The prelude of Suite #1 is on Spotify. Sounds quite dreadful.


I have listened to some clips and have decided to pass it by. Else I am a hardcore cello suites completist, but this is too weird.


----------



## premont

Ras said:


> There is also a new release from ECM on viola :
> 
> *BACH Six Suites For Solo Viola, BWV 1007-1012. Kim Kashkashian. ECM New Series 2cds*
> 
> ECMs sale's speech:
> >>The poetry and radiance of Bach's Cello Suites (BWV 1007-1012) are transfigured in these remarkable interpretations by Kim Kashkashian on viola, offering "a different kind of sombreness, a different kind of dazzlement" as annotator Paul Griffiths observes.
> One of the most compelling performers of classical and new music, Kashkashian has been hailed by The San Francisco Chronicle as "an artist who combines a probing, restless musical intellect with enormous beauty of tone." An ECM artist since 1985, she approaches Bach's music with the same commitment as revealed in her other solo recordings, the legendary Hindemith Sonatas album and the widely acclaimed (and Grammy-winning) account of Kurtág and Ligeti.<<<<


I have pre-ordered this. The release has become a bit delayed.


----------



## Ras

premont said:


> Else I am a hardcore cello suites completist,


Wow, premont - how many recordings of the cello suites have you collected?


----------



## premont

Ras said:


> Wow, premont - how many recordings of the cello suites have you collected?


Haven't counted since long, but I suppose the count is approaching100 (including arrangements for viola, lute, harpsichord et.c..). I am surprised that as well as all of them are of a very high quality with only a few duds.


----------



## Ras

premont said:


> Haven't counted since long, but I suppose the count is approaching100 (including arrangements for viola, lute, harpsichord et.c..). I am surprised that as well as all of them are of a very high quality with only a few duds.


You're a serious completist, premont 
My record is ca. 40 recordings of the same repertoire - Bach's sonatas and partitas for solo violin and Beethoven's symphonies and piano concertos. 
Now I strive not to buy more and just listen on Spotify.


----------



## premont

Half a year ago I wished to register at Spotify, but I got the answer from them, that the service wasn't available in my country. Strange - isn't it?

Later I read a number of posts in another forum about the sound quality of Spotify, which was considered sub par. A number of posters from TC have expressed a similar opinion.

Så jeg har skudt en hvid pind efter Spotify (don't know, how this may be expressed in English).


----------



## joen_cph

Yeah, 'shooting a white stick after something' probably doesn't occur among the most popular English sayings


----------



## Ras

premont said:


> Half a year ago I wished to register at Spotify, but I got the answer from them, that the service wasn't available in my country. Strange - isn't it?
> 
> Later I read a number of posts in another forum about the sound quality of Spotify, which was considered sub par. A number of posters from TC have expressed a similar opinion.
> 
> Så jeg har skudt en hvid pind efter Spotify (don't know, how this may be expressed in English).


*joen and premont*

I looked it up - in English it is: "you may whistle for that".

premont
Strange that you got an error message - I've used Spotify in Denmark since they introduced the service - in 2012 I think it was.

Soundwise Spotify is just fine for me - sounds like cds as long as you don't turn up the volume to much.

My problem with Spotify is not the sound. My problem is that sometimes my receiver just shots down while it's streaming - no matter which method I choose for streaming I run into some kind of problem. I'm now considering buying some up to date streaming equipment - mine is old...


----------



## wkasimer

Ras said:


> *joen and premont*
> 
> Soundwise Spotify is just fine for me - sounds like cds as long as you don't turn up the volume too much.


It also helps to select "Very High" in settings for "Music Quality". I'm not sure if this is an option for nonsubscribers. "Very High" is the equivalent of 320 kbps MP3; "Normal" is 96 kbps. The former is fairly close to CD quality, and is certainly good enough in most of the settings where I'm streaming via Spotify (car, office). 96 kbps is noticeably inferior.


----------



## Ras

wkasimer said:


> It also helps to select "Very High" in settings for "Music Quality". I'm not sure if this is an option for nonsubscribers. "Very High" is the equivalent of 320 kbps MP3; "Normal" is 96 kbps. The former is fairly close to CD quality, and is certainly good enough in most of the settings where I'm streaming via Spotify (car, office). 96 kbps is noticeably inferior.


Yes, when I'm listening at home I always use the high quality setting. And yes, I think you are right: the high quality sound setting is only available to premium subscribers.


----------



## Mandryka

Ras said:


> *joen and premont*
> 
> I looked it up - in English it is: "you may whistle for that".
> 
> premont
> Strange that you got an error message - I've used Spotify in Denmark since they introduced the service - in 2012 I think it was.
> 
> Soundwise Spotify is just fine for me - sounds like cds as long as you don't turn up the volume to much.
> 
> My problem with Spotify is not the sound. My problem is that sometimes my receiver just shots down while it's streaming - no matter which method I choose for streaming I run into some kind of problem. I'm now considering buying some up to date streaming equipment - mine is old...


 My advice is to connect your streamer with Ethernet rather than rely on WiFi. To do this you can buy WiFi extenders which basically plug into a power point and which can work very well.


----------



## Ras

Mandryka said:


> My advice is to connect your streamer with Ethernet rather than rely on WiFi. To do this you can buy WiFi extenders which basically plug into a power point and which can work very well.


Wow! Thank you Mandryka - That is an excellent piece of advice - I haven't tried that!


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT

Ras said:


> You're a serious completist, premont
> My record is ca. 40 recordings of the same repertoire.


I thought I was overdoing it with 12!!!


----------



## Ras

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> I thought I was overdoing it with 12!!!


I remember that feeling… way back when…


----------



## wkasimer

premont said:


> I am a hardcore cello suites completist.


A pretty expensive proposition. I'm pretty compulsive about the suites, but I've probably only heard about half of the available recordings. There are dozens of recordings by cellists I've never heard of, and some of them turn out to be terrific (Dariusz Skoraczewski's and Istvan Vardai's, for example).

You've probably already said, but which are your favorites? I'm particularly interested in some of those cellists I've never heard of.


----------



## Merl

I picked up this uber-rare set years ago via download from somewhere. I think it's very good. Alexei Seleznev's accounts are impressive and the sound is very good for a lossy mp3. It's massively OOP and virtually unknown (outside of Russia), I believe, but if anyone wants to hear it then PM me.


----------



## Ras

wkasimer said:


> but which are your favorites? I'm particularly interested in some of those cellists I've never heard of.


Have you tried *Angela East?* She is on Spotify:


----------



## premont

Ras said:


> Have you tried *Angela East?* She is on Spotify:


She is a bit too willful to my taste. But I haven't listened to her set more than twice.


----------



## premont

wkasimer said:


> A pretty expensive proposition. I'm pretty compulsive about the suites, but I've probably only heard about half of the available recordings. There are dozens of recordings by cellists I've never heard of, and some of them turn out to be terrific (Dariusz Skoraczewski's and Istvan Vardai's, for example).
> 
> You've probably already said, but which are your favorites? I'm particularly interested in some of those cellists I've never heard of.


Well, I have at least 50 favorites. If you give me some time, I shall try to list them.

I agree about Vardai, as to Dariusz Skoraczewski I got his set as late as yesterday (on your recommendation IIRC), and have not heard it yet. During the last ½ year almost every week has brought me a new and often outstanding recording of these suites. so I already have a pile of suites un-listened to..


----------



## Mandryka

And indeed I’m listening right now to #2 played by Skoraczewski


----------



## wkasimer

Ras said:


> Have you tried *Angela East?* She is on Spotify:


Not yet, but I will....


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

Vardai previously mentioned is a good one. Watkin's recording from 2015 is lesser known and is quite good and may be one of those dredded period instrument recordings.


----------



## Gallus

Been spending the weekend comparing several different recordings on Spotify: so far Fournier's controlled nobility wins out for me still, but that's really a matter of my personal preference as there have been several interpretations equally convincing in their own right. Badiarov on the shoulder cello, Kirshbaum's sweet lyricism and the sinewy Wispelwey 2 have also stood out to my ears. Starker on Mercury almost dethroned Fournier, but I find he tips ever so slightly too far into dramatics for my taste. Beschi too quick and superficial. Casals a bit sloppy in places? Queyras somewhat bland, couldn't find him doing anything which Fournier or Starker didn't do but better.


----------



## Over the Rainbow

I own 5 versions of this work/

My preferred are :
Baroqueux not fundamentalist: Wispelwey 2 living and woody version
Modern perfectly recommendable: Fournier deep and poetic version always my preferred one
Excellent compromise: Queyras exceptional sound,synthetic approach

Then Truis Mork : a very good conventional version

Then Tortelier : I don't really like this version


----------



## Mandryka

Over the Rainbow said:


> I own 5 versions of this work/
> 
> My preferred are :
> Baroqueux not fundamentalist: Wispelwey 2 living and woody version


Why is Wispelwey not fundamentalist? I mean what does he do that the fundamentalists (who they?) don't?


----------



## Over the Rainbow

Mandryka said:


> Why is Wispelwey not fundamentalist? I mean what does he do that the fundamentalists (who they?) don't?


On HIP there are much more rapier versions (Bylsma, Locset ...) called "crin crin" in French from the persons who don't like baroque interpretation.
And this one Wispelwey 2, I think can be heard by people you like modern or HIP cello. When I write fundamentalist I speak for the persons who only like real (pur et dur)and only baroque interpretation.
It is only what I think as simply music lover.


----------



## Mandryka

Ah oui, je comprends maintenant, je ne suis pas francophone mais j’ai l'impression que baroqueux est péjoratif. HIP est assez neutre en Anglais.

(C’est toujours un plaisir de baragouiner en Français!)

(Qui est Locset?)


----------



## Over the Rainbow

I beg your pardon it is Cocset bruno born in 1963. He has also his own orchestra called "les basses réunies"
View attachment 109018


Et vous avez raison : baroqueux à un côté péjoratif en France et Belgique
En fait je ne connais pas l'expression Anglaise qui convienne et qui soit neutre.

Bonne soirée


----------



## Mandryka

Over the Rainbow said:


> I beg your pardon it is Cocset bruno born in 1963. He has also his own orchestra called "les basses réunies"
> View attachment 109018
> 
> 
> Et vous avez raison : baroqueux à un côté péjoratif en France et Belgique
> En fait je ne connais pas l'expression Anglaise qui convienne et qui soit neutre.
> 
> Bonne soirée


Fundamentalist HIP was a pretty good shot! Moi, je ne connais pas une expression française qui est neutre comme HIP en anglais! "Informé" peut-être?


----------



## BernhardRath

I Like the Isserlis and Queyras Bach;

I made a modern video of the prelude of the first suite in an aircraft hangar in germany with a free and personal, hidden historical informed approach on a modern cello. I also recorded some Piatti there if you are interested.






:tiphat:


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

I just picked up a remastered Casals recording. Only listened to the first suite. The playing is great, sound still so-so. 

Also recently listened again to Ma's latest recording. It may become my fav.


----------



## Rogerx

Yo-Yo Ma ( latest recording ) and István Várdai see pic are fabulous .


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

Couldn't pass this one up for the price of $3.99. https://www.amazon.com/Cello-Suite-Major-BWV-1007/dp/B003JFH4MU

Jorg Baumann recorded 1982 and released several times.

Listener comments are positive, the only review I could find labeled it terrible. I find it a straightforward approach and well recorded. A middle of the pack rendition that is basically enjoyable.


----------



## premont

Oldhoosierdude said:


> Couldn't pass this one up for the price of $3.99.
> Jorg Baumann recorded 1982 and released several times.
> 
> Listener comments are positive, the only review I could find labeled it terrible. I find it a straightforward approach and well recorded. A middle of the pack rendition that is basically enjoyable.


The late Jörg Baumann's recording was the first recording of the cello suites, I purchased, already in the days of LP. Later I acquired a few dozens other recordings but I still find Baumann's very uplifting and - as you write - very well recorded.


----------



## DavidA

Casals ius a classic of course but Fournier is excellent


----------



## premont

I tend to say, that Casals' recording is outdated and hasn't but historical interest, while Fournier's recording is a classic. Even this has BTW been surpassed several times.


----------



## Guest

I don't know if anyone has mentioned Boris Pergamenschikow but I think his interps are quite wonderful.


----------



## Merl

Victor Redseal said:


> I don't know if anyone has mentioned Boris Pergamenschikow but I think his interps are quite wonderful.


Mention him? I cant even pronounce his name!


----------



## fliege

Bulldog said:


> Mine are Casals, Bylsma, ter Linden, Pergamenschikow, Yo-Yo Ma, Kirshbaum, Dieltiens, Bruns, Beschi, Fournier, Wispelwey, Sheppard, Maisky, Carrai, Rostropovich, Markson, Suzuki and a few others. Beschi (Winter & Winter) is my favorite - HIP to the max and sharp to piercing.


Gosh, the Beschi is amazing. I've so far only really listened to the Yo-Yo Ma, so it's nice to hear such a different take on them.


----------



## Merl

fliege said:


> I've so far only really listened to the Yo-Yo Ma, so it's nice to hear such a different take on them.


Which Yo-Yo Ma recording? There's 3!


----------



## SARDiver

Sorta stumbled onto this thread after a long layoff from this forum. Listened (via YouTube) to the Yo-Yo Ma suite he performed for the BBC, but in the end, ordered the Rostropovich set from Amazon. 


For Christmas last, I bought a new Pioneer subwoofer that marked down from $600 to $250, and combined with a Yamaha receiver, makes cellos sound incredible. Can't wait for the disks to arrive.


----------



## wkasimer

I heard Alisa Weilerstein give a superb performance of all six suites Friday night in Boston's Jordan Hall. I hope that she records them soon.

Aftewards, as usual, I felt the need to dip into some recordings of the suites. First up was Yo-yo Ma's second recording ("Inspired by Bach"). Ma was apparently not very inspired; his playing here is technically secure and deadly dull. His third recording, recently released, is vastly better.

I next turned to Rostropovich's EMI recording. I hadn't heard it in a while, but remembered finding it subpar, but couldn''t remember why. Now I do - it's not particularly well-recorded - there's nothing like the big, beautiful sound that he produced in the flesh - but the bigger problem is that much of his playing is metronomic and foursquare. I understand the desire to maintain a steady tempo, but surely Bach intended the music to have a sense of joy that Rostropovich completely misses. Very surprising.

Finally, I put on Ralph Kirshbaum. His playing has everything that Ma and Rostropovich missed. It's beautifully recorded, and the sound he produces is breathtaking. Even when playing at an even tempo, the music has plenty of life and vigor, thanks to Kirshbaum's subtle use of accents and dynamics, and ability to mold phrases. The only downside to this recording, which may bother other people more than it does me, is that the somewhat close audio perspective makes the cellist's breathing audible.

I'm not sure about the current availability of Kirshbaum's recording - it was reissued as a budget "twofer" a couple of times, and then in a 4 CD set coupled with Tetzlaff's first recording of the Sonatas and Partitas (also excellent, BTW). The original issue, which I have, shows up now and then on eBay.


----------



## jegreenwood

wkasimer said:


> *I heard Alisa Weilerstein give a superb performance of all six suites Friday night in Boston's Jordan Hall. I hope that she records them soon.*
> 
> Aftewards, as usual, I felt the need to dip into some recordings of the suites. First up was Yo-yo Ma's second recording ("Inspired by Bach"). Ma was apparently not very inspired; his playing here is technically secure and deadly dull. His third recording, recently released, is vastly better.
> 
> I next turned to Rostropovich's EMI recording. I hadn't heard it in a while, but remembered finding it subpar, but couldn''t remember why. Now I do - it's not particularly well-recorded - there's nothing like the big, beautiful sound that he produced in the flesh - but the bigger problem is that much of his playing is metronomic and foursquare. I understand the desire to maintain a steady tempo, but surely Bach intended the music to have a sense of joy that Rostropovich completely misses. Very surprising.
> 
> Finally, I put on Ralph Kirshbaum. His playing has everything that Ma and Rostropovich missed. It's beautifully recorded, and the sound he produces is breathtaking. Even when playing at an even tempo, the music has plenty of life and vigor, thanks to Kirshbaum's subtle use of accents and dynamics, and ability to mold phrases. The only downside to this recording, which may bother other people more than it does me, is that the somewhat close audio perspective makes the cellist's breathing audible.
> 
> I'm not sure about the current availability of Kirshbaum's recording - it was reissued as a budget "twofer" a couple of times, and then in a 4 CD set coupled with Tetzlaff's first recording of the Sonatas and Partitas (also excellent, BTW). The original issue, which I have, shows up now and then on eBay.


Interesting. I heard Weilerstein perform the cycle two years ago, and was unimpressed. Maybe she has improved.


----------



## Mandryka

Here she is in 2016 with a sarabande


----------



## ElKhaiHeem

*Oldhoosierdude* , do you have "free" access to these Cello Suits on Amazon Prime. I too, am a Amazon Prime member. Thanks !


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

ElKhaiHeem said:


> *Oldhoosierdude* , do you have "free" access to these Cello Suits on Amazon Prime. I too, am a Amazon Prime member. Thanks !


Yes, certainly. There are quite a few.


----------



## Vasistha

I have seen several different recordings of the Starker. Most popular is the Mercury Living Presence recording. However, I noticed that Sony has a recording that I've seen available for download. I've listened to both at the download site, but of course, that site is probably streaming an MP3 compressed file and so judging the quality of the downloads which are FLAC 16 is sketchy at best. The SONY seems like the mic placement is different, and sounds like it could be a little more open than the Mercury version. Have you listened to both? Do you know both. They are different recording sessions, the Mercury session some years earlier, I believe. But I'd be curious if you or others in the forum have compared these two different versions and what your thoughts are on them if you have.


----------



## premont

Here is a comprehensive Starker discography :

http://lee.classite.com/music/Starker/discography-starker.htm

Which one is the Sony release. I suppose, it is the one, which was released in the first hand on RCA, but do not know for sure.


----------



## vtpoet

Heliogabo said:


> Recently I discovered Mischa Maisky's 2nd recording (DG)


Also my favorite recording. That and Jaap Ter Linden. I listen to Maisky in the Spring and Summer; Jaap Ter Linden in the fall and winter.


----------



## Rogerx

BernhardRath said:


> I Like the Isserlis and Queyras Bach;
> 
> I made a modern video of the prelude of the first suite in an aircraft hangar in germany with a free and personal, hidden historical informed approach on a modern cello. I also recorded some Piatti there if you are interested.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :tiphat:


Are we going the see/ hear more from you?


----------



## Agamenon

This set is a gem!

https://www.deutschegrammophon.com/en/cat/4836385?


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

Agamenon said:


> This set is a gem!
> 
> https://www.deutschegrammophon.com/en/cat/4836385?


I understand Fournier recorded the suites a number of times. I have the most common release from the early 60's.


----------



## Mandryka

Oldhoosierdude said:


> I understand Fournier recorded the suites a number of times. I have the most common release from the early 60's.


I have four recordings by him, 1959, 1960, 1972 and 1977. The one that Agamenon likes is 1960.


----------



## flamencosketches

Anyone know why he recorded them in back-to-back years? Seems like an odd move, unless something serious happened to him in the interim that changed his way of looking at the music.


----------



## wkasimer

flamencosketches said:


> Anyone know why he recorded them in back-to-back years? Seems like an odd move, unless something serious happened to him in the interim that changed his way of looking at the music.


I think that the 1959 version is a live recording, or a broadcast. 1960 was a studio recording.


----------



## Mandryka

A broadcast for Radio Suisse Romande October 1959.


----------



## premont

Mandryka said:


> A broadcast for Radio Suisse Romande October 1959.


I have the 1959 recording on a release from Accord. I suppose the 1960 recording is the Archiv release. The two last ones (1972 and 1977), which I don't have, were as far as I know, only available in Japan. Which one of these four do you prefer yourself?


----------



## Mandryka

premont said:


> I have the 1959 recording on a release from Accord. I suppose the 1960 recording is the Archiv release. The two last ones (1972 and 1977), which I don't have, were as far as I know, only available in Japan. Which one of these four do you prefer yourself?


In fact I hardly listen to these recordings, but because of this discussion I sampled the fugue of the 5th suite in each of them this morning, and my attention was most drawn to 1972. I'll send the two later ones to you later.


----------



## premont

Mandryka said:


> In fact I hardly listen to these recordings, but because of this discussion I sampled the fugue of the 5th suite in each of them this morning, and my attention was most drawn to 1972. I'll send the two later ones to you later.


That would be really excellent. Thanks in advance.


----------



## cello suite

A performance by *Marc Coppey* is now another favorite rendition of mine. (Apologies; I did a search on his name and, as I'd hoped, this thread showed in the results, but his name was not highlighted in the link given, and I was not about to sift through to seek its location somewhere in the several pages of this thread.)


----------



## premont

cello suite said:


> A performance by *Marc Coppey* is now another favorite rendition of mine.


Do you refer to his CD set or this:






or both?


----------



## hoodjem

premont said:


> I have the 1959 recording on a release from Accord. I suppose the 1960 recording is the Archiv release. The two last ones (1972 and 1977), which I don't have, were as far as I know, only available in Japan. Which one of these four do you prefer yourself?


What label is the 1972 recording?


----------



## Mandryka

Anyone formed a view on this one? I don't have the booklet, so I can't say anything much about the bowing technique she's exploring, other than that it's radically different from conservatory technique, it's supposed to be informed by historical practice, and is based in some way on gamba bowing.

Info here

https://www.jsbachcellosuites.com/project.html









I'm listening right now to the 5th, and I'm impressed by an urgency, an intensity, in the allemande.


----------



## Mandryka

Mandryka said:


> Anyone formed a view on this one? I don't have the booklet, so I can't say anything much about the bowing technique she's exploring, other than that it's radically different from conservatory technique, it's supposed to be informed by historical practice, and is based in some way on gamba bowing.
> 
> Info here
> 
> https://www.jsbachcellosuites.com/project.html
> 
> View attachment 128202
> 
> 
> I'm listening right now to the 5th, and I'm impressed by an urgency, an intensity, in the allemande.


It's exceptionally interesting. Expressive and controlled, dancing and noble. She articulates incisively, and her phrasing is well balanced, not too speech like, not too song like. Well recorded - she gets some very nice colours to come out of the instrument, and she uses all those timbres to bring out the interaction of the voices.

The chords in the sarabande of the 6th are strikingly dissonant. Also striking is the contour, the structure, of the coutante. She's prepared a performing edition of the music. It may well be worth finding out about what she's discovered doing that.


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

Mandryka said:


> Anyone formed a view on this one? I don't have the booklet, so I can't say anything much about the bowing technique she's exploring, other than that it's radically different from conservatory technique, it's supposed to be informed by historical practice, and is based in some way on gamba bowing.
> 
> Info here
> 
> https://www.jsbachcellosuites.com/project.html
> 
> View attachment 128202
> 
> 
> I'm listening right now to the 5th, and I'm impressed by an urgency, an intensity, in the allemande.


It's on Amazon. I'll give it a listen.


----------



## Guest

Mandryka said:


> It's exceptionally interesting. Expressive and controlled, dancing and noble. She articulates incisively, and her phrasing is well balanced, not too speech like, not too song like. Well recorded - she gets some very nice colours to come out of the instrument, and she uses all those timbres to bring out the interaction of the voices.
> 
> The chords in the sarabande of the 6th are strikingly dissonant. Also striking is the contour, the structure, of the coutante. She's prepared a performing edition of the music. It may well be worth finding out about what she's discovered doing that.


I listened to some samples, fantastic!


----------



## Guest

I have Starker, Rostropovich, Maisky, Casals, Fournier, Lipkind, and Kniazev. That's enough.  I suppose Rostropovich's is my favorite.


----------



## wkasimer

88keys said:


> I have Starker, Rostropovich, Maisky, Casals, Fournier, Lipkind, and Kniazev. That's enough.


Never enough. At the very least, you need Queyras.


----------



## premont

hoodjem said:


> What label is the 1972 recording?


TDK Japan.

http://sanrau2011.blogspot.com/2011/07/fournier-bach-cello-suites-2cds-tdk_6431.html


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

Oldhoosierdude said:


> It's on Amazon. I'll give it a listen.


I greatly enjoyed this set. As long as it is on Amazon prime I will listen to it from time to time. The price tag is a bit steeper than I want to go for now.


----------



## jegreenwood

Oldhoosierdude said:


> It's on Amazon. I'll give it a listen.


I'm curious - were the tracks in the proper order? On Tidal, it appears that whoever is responsible forgot to separate disc 1 and disc 2. Thus the default track listing is: Suite 1 Prelude, Suite 4 Prelude, Suite 1, Allemande, Suite 4 Allemande . . .

I can make a playlist that orders them properly, but it's a PITA.

A few years back I engaged with a ranter here who came across several similar instances and promptly deemed Tidal useless. I acknowledged it does happen from time to time, but I could live with it. (Another example was the Annie Fischer Beethoven box set.)


----------



## Mandryka

This is the reason I stopped using Tidal years ago. It may have been me you "engaged with" Are you saying I'm a "ranter"? Is that a good thing?

These are obviously divisive performances -- as always with great art -- I just got a message saying



> Listened to a sample on Spotify. I thought Pablo Casals was rough - but
> at least he is musical.
> 
> I don't know anything technical about these recordings but I find them
> grotesque...


----------



## jegreenwood

Mandryka said:


> This is the reason I stopped using Tidal years ago. It may have been me you "engaged with" Are you saying I'm a "ranter"? Is that a good thing?
> 
> These are obviously divisive performances -- as always with great art -- I just got a message saying


Absolutely not you. This guy engaged in ad hominem attacks against me.


----------



## Mandryka

jegreenwood said:


> Absolutely not you. This guy engaged in ad hominem attacks against me.


Ah! That's not good.


----------



## Vahe Sahakian

Try this for Suite #6
https://www.bachvereniging.nl/en/bwv/bwv-1012/


----------



## wkasimer

Mandryka said:


> Anyone formed a view on this one? I don't have the booklet, so I can't say anything much about the bowing technique she's exploring, other than that it's radically different from conservatory technique, it's supposed to be informed by historical practice, and is based in some way on gamba bowing.
> 
> Info here
> 
> https://www.jsbachcellosuites.com/project.html
> 
> View attachment 128202
> 
> 
> I'm listening right now to the 5th, and I'm impressed by an urgency, an intensity, in the allemande.


I have to confess that I don't much care for this, based on a listen via Spotify. It's mostly a matter of the sheer sound that she produces - I'm not sure if it's her instrument or her bowing method, but there's a rather nasal quality to the sound that's tough for me to tolerate for an entire suite. It also sounds to me as though she's playing a lot of open strings, which stick out. None of this is helped by the rather close recording.


----------



## Mandryka

wkasimer said:


> I have to confess that I don't much care for this, based on a listen via Spotify. It's mostly a matter of the sheer sound that she produces - I'm not sure if it's her instrument or her bowing method, but there's a rather nasal quality to the sound that's tough for me to tolerate for an entire suite. It also sounds to me as though she's playing a lot of open strings, which stick out. None of this is helped by the rather close recording.


Yes, I understand. It probably helps not to be much of a connoisseur of cello sound!

Just watching that video that Vahe Sahakian posted makes me want to know if you've ever played one of these things. Have you ever hung a cello round your neck like that?

https://www.bachvereniging.nl/en/bwv/bwv-1012/


----------



## wkasimer

Mandryka said:


> Just watching that video that Vahe Sahakian posted makes me want to know if you've ever played one of these things. Have you ever hung a cello round your neck like that?
> 
> https://www.bachvereniging.nl/en/bwv/bwv-1012/


No, I haven't tried one of these - a "shoulder cello" or violoncello da spalla. I suspect that anyone used to playing a "normal" cello would have a brutal time trying to learn to play one of these - everything is backwards. It'd probably be easier for a violinist or violist.

There's a nice recording of the six suites on such an instrument, played by Dmitry Badiarov, who is also a luthier:









http://violoncellodaspalla.blogspot.com/


----------



## Mandryka

wkasimer said:


> No, I haven't tried one of these - a "shoulder cello" or violoncello da spalla. I suspect that anyone used to playing a "normal" cello would have a brutal time trying to learn to play one of these - everything is backwards. It'd probably be easier for a violinist or violist.
> 
> There's a nice recording of the six suites on such an instrument, played by Dmitry Badiarov, who is also a luthier:
> 
> View attachment 128356
> 
> 
> http://violoncellodaspalla.blogspot.com/


Yes I know it well and it's my favourite of the shoulder cello recordings I've heard


----------



## Josquin13

Isn't that Badiarov in Vahe Sahakian's video clip? I thought it was. If so, I agree, he's excellent.

There is a heroic, noble quality to Janos Starker's cello playing on his earlier Mercury Living Presence recording that I don't hear in other versions (or at least not to the same degree of expressiveness). Among older LP versions, I used to like Pierre Fournier and Maurice Gendron, too.

Otherwise, I've most liked Anner Bylsma's pioneering 1979 period recording on Seon (or Sony), Jean-Guihen Queyras, Ophelie Gaillard's 2nd recording (as I've not heard her first), and Pieter Wispelway's 1st recording--which I may be alone here in preferring to his 2nd recording. (I've not heard Wispelway's 3rd recording.)

Among those that have caught my interest, I'd most like to hear Christophe Coin and Arnau Tomàs play these suites, as both cellists have impressed me in other music; as well as perhaps Roel Dieltiens, István Várdi, and Zuill Bailey ...

Christophe Coin in the Cello Suites nos. 2, 3, & 5:


----------



## premont

Josquin13 said:


> Isn't that Badiarov in Vahe Sahakian's video clip? I thought it was. If so, I agree, he's excellent.


It's Sergey Malov. He is a bit more dynamic and energetic than Badiarov.

He recorded the suite here:

http://www.easonus.com/catalog/13-strings-vol.1


----------



## Mandryka

premont said:


> It's Sergey Malov. He is a bit more dynamic and energetic than Badiarov.
> 
> He recorded the suite here:
> 
> http://www.easonus.com/catalog/13-strings-vol.1


In fact I didn't enjoy it very much.


----------



## premont

Mandryka said:


> In fact I didn't enjoy it very much.


I think the prelude, the courante, the gavotte and the gigue (suite 6) in his hands have much of that dancing, exuberant quality I associate with these movements. But I prefer Badiarov to Malov in the suites 1 and 2.

BTW have you heard Malov's recording of Bartok's solo violin sonata (filler to the CD with Bach suites 1 and 6)? I had never heard the sonata before (!!) and don't know what to think of it.


----------



## Mandryka

No I haven’t heard Malov playing the Bartok solo sonata, in fact I didn’t know that he’d made a recording! I’ve come to appreciate the music very much though, mostly through Leila Josefowicz’s CD.

Oh, happy new year :cheers:


----------



## 1996D

Absolutely perfect, great remaster, sounds like it was recorded today. Ma understands the music and shows great taste, no clumsiness or awkwardness, no vanity, decadence, or narcissism; every passage makes sense standing alone and together with the next; fantastic emotional understanding.










More dramatic, squeezes everything out the pieces. The recording quality isn't as crisp as the former but Rostropovich makes up for it.


----------



## wkasimer

1996D said:


> Absolutely perfect, great remaster, sounds like it was recorded today. Ma understands the music and shows great taste, no clumsiness or awkwardness, no vanity, decadence, or narcissism; every passage makes sense standing alone and together with the next; fantastic emotional understanding.


I gave this a rehearing a couple of days ago. It's the kind of version that I might recommend to someone who's never heard the music before and is looking for a single recording. It is beautifully and immaculately played, and very well recorded - but I hear very little beyond that. Ma never makes an ugly or unmusical sound, and that may be part of the problem - he doesn't have the wide interpretive palette of someone like Wispelwey or Queyras, or a very clear interpretive stance, like Heinrich Schiff. Ma turns Bach into something akin to background music. His most recent set is vastly superior interepretively, if not quite as technically fluent (after all, Ma is now well past 60).



> More dramatic, squeezes everything out the pieces. The recording quality isn't as crisp as the former but Rostropovich makes up for it.


I like this one even less. By the time Rostropovich got around to recording these, he was past his best technically after a very long and busy career. I don't particularly care for the sound that he produces and his playing is heavy-handed, as though playing forte gives the music gravitas. If you want a big, full-bodied cello sound, try Truls Mork's set instead.


----------



## Merl

wkasimer said:


> I gave this a rehearing a couple of days ago. It's the kind of version that I might recommend to someone who's never heard the music before and is looking for a single recording. It is beautifully and immaculately played, and very well recorded - but I hear very little beyond that. Ma never makes an ugly or unmusical sound, and that may be part of the problem - he doesn't have the wide interpretive palette of someone like Wispelwey or Queyras, or a very clear interpretive stance, like Heinrich Schiff. Ma turns Bach into something akin to background music. His most recent set is vastly superior interepretively, if not quite as technically fluent (after all, Ma is now well past 60).
> 
> I like this one even less. By the time Rostropovich got around to recording these, he was past his best technically after a very long and busy career. I don't particularly care for the sound that he produces and his playing is heavy-handed, as though playing forte gives the music gravitas. If you want a big, full-bodied cello sound, try Truls Mork's set instead.


Totally echo those sentiments. Ma's latest set is leagues better than that 1st recording. As for Rostropovich I've never liked that set at all and find the recording particularly off-putting. Give me Queyras, Haimovitz et al any day.


----------



## Mandryka

Ma 3 is a really masterful exercise in making the music accessible, ironing out all asperities, pointing up the sweetest tunes. It reminds me of Jordi Savall’s orchestral arrangements.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

Two that have been minimally mentioned that I think deserve some discussion: Ralph Kirshbaum on Erato and Jaap ter Linden on Harmonia Mundi. Kirshbaum just may be my overall favorite- gorgeous, opulent phrasing but he never lingers decadently. Don't think I've ever heard more beautiful Sarabandes (whenever I evaluate a Cello Suites recording I always listen to the Sarabandes first, since how they're treated gives a good idea of the performer's approach). Ter Linden plays on a period cello and his style sounds remarkably fresh to my ears. Sharp accents, buoyant rhythms, while retaining the type of thick, creamy texture that guys like Maisky and Rostropovich get out of their instrument. The recording is piercingly clear.


----------



## wkasimer

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Two that have been minimally mentioned that I think deserve some discussion: Ralph Kirshbaum on Erato and Jaap ter Linden on Harmonia Mundi. Kirshbaum just may be my overall favorite- gorgeous, opulent phrasing but he never lingers decadently. Don't think I've ever heard more beautiful Sarabandes (whenever I evaluate a Cello Suites recording I always listen to the Sarabandes first, since how they're treated gives a good idea of the performer's approach). Ter Linden plays on a period cello and his style sounds remarkably fresh to my ears. Sharp accents, buoyant rhythms, while retaining the type of thick, creamy texture that guys like Maisky and Rostropovich get out of their instrument. The recording is piercingly clear.


I certainly agree about Kirshbaum, but the ter Linden is an object lesson in how different people hear music differently. I actually culled ter Linden's set yesterday, finding it technically sound but monochromatic and lacking in interpretive imagination and variety - sort of an HIP equivalent to Yo-yo Ma's first recorded effort.

For HIP, I much prefer Bylsma 1, Paolo Beschi, and Wispelwey 2 or 3. And if you don't mind viola da gamba, Paolo Pandolfo.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

wkasimer said:


> I certainly agree about Kirshbaum, but the ter Linden is an object lesson in how different people hear music differently. I actually culled ter Linden's set yesterday, finding it technically sound but monochromatic and lacking in interpretive imagination and variety - sort of an HIP equivalent to Yo-yo Ma's first recorded effort.
> 
> For HIP, I much prefer Bylsma 1, Paolo Beschi, and Wispelwey 2 or 3. And if you don't mind viola da gamba, Paolo Pandolfo.


I just listened to some of ter Linden and Bylsma to compare. You are certainly right that ter Linden can be relatively bland (though I still like his thick, rich tone). Some of Bylsma's slower allemandes and sarabandes are like floating on a breeze. Expressive, sensitive, achingly tender playing. He captures the dance rhythms when needed in the swifter movements but also allows for plenty of emotional gravitas. Fantastic stuff!


----------



## Guest

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I just listened to some of ter Linden and Bylsma to compare. You are certainly right that ter Linden can be relatively bland (though I still like his thick, rich tone). Some of Bylsma's slower allemandes and sarabandes are like floating on a breeze. Expressive, sensitive, achingly tender playing. He captures the dance rhythms when needed in the swifter movements but also allows for plenty of emotional gravitas. Fantastic stuff!


Agree, Bylsma is superb.

To think of it, the only sets of the suites that I find totally lacking in interest are Harnoncourt and Rostropovich.


----------



## RICK RIEKERT

Among the younger generation of cellists, Carmine Miranda's passionate and beautiful recording of the Cello Suites is technically and musically superb and to my ears can stand comparison with the finest recordings already mentioned here (at least the ones that I've heard).


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

What does everyone think of the pioneering Casals accounts? Seems I've seen more historical "appreciation" for them on this thread rather than genuine enjoyment. Personally, I find his playing deeply gripping in a way that few others have achieved. Like all music, it's tough to really describe in words what makes it that way, but the best way I can describe it is like the music is flowing spontaneously out of him. Sort of like he's sightreading the scores for the first time and adapting his performance to his inner instincts; searching, moulding, shaping the abstract notes into a coherent and uniquely sublime whole (of course, he was the one to rediscover the music, so surely there must be some special connection that comes through in his playing). Now, I do think that others have done better since, and his is certainly not the only valid interpretation. But I'd be interested in hearing some other opinions on it!

Also, I'm considering buying (through download) Steven Isserlis's recording. Do you think it's worth it? The YouTube sample is limited, and streaming services don't carry Hyperion albums.


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

Merl said:


> Totally echo those sentiments. Ma's latest set is leagues better than that 1st recording. As for Rostropovich I've never liked that set at all and find the recording particularly off-putting. Give me Queyras, Haimovitz et al any day.


I am going to have to go ahead and agree with you there. I like the first set by Ma but I like his unpopular second set better and his third set has become the BCS I most often listen to.

As for Rosty, that was the first BCS set I owned years ago and I blame it for not having an interest in the work before I did. It did zero for me and I sold it when I got tired of it taking up shelf space.


----------



## Guest

Mandryka said:


> Ma 3 is a really masterful exercise in making the music accessible, ironing out all asperities, pointing up the sweetest tunes. It reminds me of Jordi Savall's orchestral arrangements.


For what it's worth, I don't agree with that.


----------



## Guest

Allegro Con Brio said:


> What does everyone think of the pioneering Casals accounts? Seems I've seen more historical "appreciation" for them on this thread rather than genuine enjoyment. Personally, I find his playing deeply gripping in a way that few others have achieved. Like all music, it's tough to really describe in words what makes it that way, but the best way I can describe it is like the music is flowing spontaneously out of him. Sort of like he's sightreading the scores for the first time and adapting his performance to his inner instincts; searching, moulding, shaping the abstract notes into a coherent and uniquely sublime whole (of course, he was the one to rediscover the music, so surely there must be some special connection that comes through in his playing). Now, I do think that others have done better since, and his is certainly not the only valid interpretation. But I'd be interested in hearing some other opinions on it!


Casals and Fournier were the first two recordings I heard. I found Casal's performances very compelling, although listening through the old audio was a challenge. Amazing, especially in view of the fact that he more or less had to invent the performance tradition, since the works were so neglected up to that point (or so I've read).


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

Baron Scarpia said:


> Casals and Fournier were the first two recordings I heard. I found Casal's performances very compelling, although listening through the old audio was a challenge. Amazing, especially in view of the fact that he more or less had to invent the performance tradition, since the works were so neglected up to that point (or so I've read).


I appreciate what Casal did and have tried his recording a number of times. Sound quality aside I simply don't like it. I wanted to because of the story associated and I'll most likely try again.

Fournier recorded this a number of times. I have the one released in 1961. It is good. Maurice Gendron's 1964 release was my previous go to for this work.

Yo Yo Ma strikes some people in a way they seem to not like much of anything he does. I have seen comments to the effect that he is pretentious and mechanical. In the same way I sometimes view Glenn Gould, although I have grudgingly come to look at his Goldberg's in a better light.

To each his own. There are plenty of good BCS out there. One for everybody.


----------



## Mandryka

Baron Scarpia said:


> For what it's worth, I don't agree with that.


Which bit, the bit about Ma, the bit about Savall, or both?

Either way, so examples for me to hear would be appreciated.



Baron Scarpia said:


> I found Casal's performances very compelling


Really?!! Even in the faster music? I thought he was stupefyingly dull.


----------



## wkasimer

Allegro Con Brio said:


> What does everyone think of the pioneering Casals accounts? Seems I've seen more historical "appreciation" for them on this thread rather than genuine enjoyment. Personally, I find his playing deeply gripping in a way that few others have achieved. Like all music, it's tough to really describe in words what makes it that way, but the best way I can describe it is like the music is flowing spontaneously out of him. Sort of like he's sightreading the scores for the first time and adapting his performance to his inner instincts; searching, moulding, shaping the abstract notes into a coherent and uniquely sublime whole (of course, he was the one to rediscover the music, so surely there must be some special connection that comes through in his playing). Now, I do think that others have done better since, and his is certainly not the only valid interpretation. But I'd be interested in hearing some other opinions on it!


I'm more or less with you on Casals, and can do no better describing the reason, but every time I think that I'm ready to cull his recordings, I listen to them and enjoy the feeling of spontaneity and keep them. It helps to hear his recordings in good transfers - Pearl and Opus Kura are best, Naxos and the latest EMI mastering OK, but I'd avoid the first couple of EMI issues. Yes, Casals was challenged technically by some of the music, but after all, he was already in his mid-60's when he finally recorded them.



> Also, I'm considering buying (through download) Steven Isserlis's recording. Do you think it's worth it? The YouTube sample is limited, and streaming services don't carry Hyperion albums.


There's certainly nothing wrong with it, but I found it non-essential. Isserlis is a superb cellist, but I found his recording of the suites disappointing - it seemed rather bland, as though Isserlis wasn't willing to give the music full expression or imprint his own personality on it.


----------



## wkasimer

Baron Scarpia said:


> To think of it, the only sets of the suites that I find totally lacking in interest are Harnoncourt and Rostropovich.


You've obviously never heard either of Enrico Mainardi's recordings....


----------



## premont

wkasimer said:


> You've obviously never heard either of Enrico Mainardi's recordings....


I have heard one of them (don't know which one but probably the second), and I didn't find it that bad. Put in another way, I had expected it to be far worse.


----------



## Guest

wkasimer said:


> You've obviously never heard either of Enrico Mainardi's recordings....


Is he the one who recorded them for DGG/Archiv in the 50's?


----------



## Guest

Mandryka said:


> Which bit, the bit about Ma, the bit about Savall, or both?
> 
> Either way, so examples for me to hear would be appreciated.


I was referring to the suites (I don't know the Saval arrangements you refer to). I can't really supply examples because you described him as doing specific things with the music (ironing out asperities, pointing up the sweetest tunes) which I did not particularly notice I can't cite an example where he didn't do it, that would be the whole set. I just found it a fairly neutral, genial interpretation, skillfully done. It wasn't extremely distinctive, but I enjoyed listening to it.



> Really?!! Even in the faster music? I thought he was stupefyingly dull.


I haven't heard it for 30 years, probably, I was describing my reaction at the time. The first three recordings I heard were Fournier, Casals and Ma I, which was a new release at the time, on of the CDs I bought just after I got my player, as I recall.


----------



## Mandryka

Baron Scarpia said:


> I was referring to the suites (I don't know the Saval arrangements you refer to). I can't really supply examples because you described him as doing specific things with the music (ironing out asperities, pointing up the sweetest tunes) which I did not particularly notice I can't cite an example where he didn't do it, that would be the whole set. I just found it a fairly neutral, genial interpretation, skillfully done. It wasn't extremely distinctive, but I enjoyed listening to it.
> 
> I haven't heard it for 30 years, probably, I was describing my reaction at the time. The first three recordings I heard were Fournier, Casals and Ma I, which was a new release at the time, on of the CDs I bought just after I got my player, as I recall.


I was thinking about what he does with renaissance music really -- Lluis da Mila for example, or Cabezon. Where it's less that he plays the music by the composer, more that he makes little arrangements for his little band.

I was listening to his Mozart symphony recording the other week, a very distinctive sound world he creates. I've also been really enjoying his three Sybil recordings. The baroque stuff I know much less well. On the whole I'm rather fond of Savall.


----------



## wkasimer

Baron Scarpia said:


> Is he the one who recorded them for DGG/Archiv in the 50's?


Yes, that's the better of his two recordings. He recorded them again, about a decade later, when his technique was pretty much gone. The later set has been issued on Eurodisc:









The earlier set, which is better but which I would still not recommend, is available from Japan.


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

Oldhoosierdude said:


> I greatly enjoyed this set. As long as it is on Amazon prime I will listen to it from time to time. The price tag is a bit steeper than I want to go for now.
> View attachment 128305


Amazing sound. Unique perspective, I recommend reading through her site to get an idea of what she is doing. I have listened through several times in the past month. I have an Amazon credit and am thinking about going ahead with purchase as my unlimited membership is about to expire. This is a good one, very enjoyable.


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

This has been mentioned and is worth repeating. An attempt at a complete listing of BCS recordings. Amazing how many have been released in the past few years.

https://www.jsbachcellosuites.com/recordings.html


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

Another new release with another unique and thoughtful perspective. I heard her interviewed on local radio. She explains her reasons for her approach. Basically, she adds ornamentation which she believes was Bach's intention. Honestly, yes I heard some extras in there when she played but not anything that much concerned me. You can also listen to quite a lot of her recording on Spotify.

Personally I am on the fence as to what I think. However the hefty price tag will not win a whole lot of listeners like me.

http://julianasoltismusic.com/album/going-off-script-the-ornamented-suites-for-cello/


----------



## wkasimer

Oldhoosierdude said:


> Another new release with another unique and thoughtful perspective. I heard her interviewed on local radio. She explains her reasons for her approach. Basically, she adds ornamentation which she believes was Bach's intention. Honestly, yes I heard some extras in there when she played but not anything that much concerned me. You can also listen to quite a lot of her recording on Spotify.


If you want an extravagantly ornamented recording of the Bach suites, try Frederick Zlotkin's:


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

wkasimer said:


> If you want an extravagantly ornamented recording of the Bach suites, try Frederick Zlotkin's:
> 
> View attachment 131270


I'll look it up. Actually, the one I mentioned is a pass for me. I respect her dedication, scholarship, and the fact that she is in Indiana at Purdue University, but ultimately I pass on this one.


----------



## premont

wkasimer said:


> If you want an extravagantly ornamented recording of the Bach suites, try Frederick Zlotkin's:
> 
> View attachment 131270


Does it exist in a CD format or only as mp3 download?


----------



## premont

Oldhoosierdude said:


> Another new release with another unique and thoughtful perspective. I heard her interviewed on local radio. She explains her reasons for her approach. Basically, she adds ornamentation which she believes was Bach's intention. Honestly, yes I heard some extras in there when she played but not anything that much concerned me. You can also listen to quite a lot of her recording on Spotify.
> 
> Personally I am on the fence as to what I think. However the hefty price tag will not win a whole lot of listeners like me.


Thanks. You describe the interpretation in a way, which tells me, that I must have it.


----------



## wkasimer

premont said:


> Does it exist in a CD format or only as mp3 download?


I obtained a physical copy 15 or so years ago, by contacting the cellist directly., but I doubt that's still an option.

Zlotkin, BTW, is the son of Felix Slatkin and Eleanor Aller (and obviously, Leonard Slatkin's brother). He changed his name back to something closer to the original Russian version.


----------



## wkasimer

Oldhoosierdude said:


> I'll look it up. Actually, the one I mentioned is a pass for me. I respect her dedication, scholarship, and the fact that she is in Indiana at Purdue University, but ultimately I pass on this one.


I'm probably going to pass as well. I listened to some of it yesterday, and found that a) it was hard to recognize the music as the Bach Cello Suites and b) the heavy breathing was a bit much.


----------



## Sad Al

I find Mischa Maisky's 1998 recording cool. Ok it starts in super speed but then it cools down and it's in super DG sound and Maisky plays a wonderful instrument. And Maisky is a Jesus lookalike and he's pitch perfect. What's not to like? In fact you should have this record. Buy it, loan it or steal it. But don't get caught.


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

Sad Al said:


> I find Mischa Maisky's 1998 recording cool. Ok it starts in super speed but then it cools down and it's in super DG sound and Maisky plays a wonderful instrument. And Maisky is a Jesus lookalike and he's pitch perfect. What's not to like? In fact you should have this record. Buy it, loan it or steal it. But don't get caught.


I rather like his DVD recording the best. Not sure it has ever been released in any other format.


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

wkasimer said:


> If you want an extravagantly ornamented recording of the Bach suites, try Frederick Zlotkin's:
> 
> View attachment 131270


So friend, I listened to a bit of this on YouTube and you are correct, quite good. A real keeper, available at Amazon as a download. Although I was looking for something else on that well known archive of the internet site that I will refrain from mentioning, and there it is. A little poppy and cracky as it is no doubt sourced from an LP. Many around here say these things can't be legit. I find that puzzling as the site has existed some time as a public domain resource. But who knows, mistakes can happen. What do I know, I'm from Indiana.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

wkasimer said:


> I heard Alisa Weilerstein give a superb performance of all six suites Friday night in Boston's Jordan Hall. I hope that she records them soon.


This was from more than a year ago, but I just wanted to provide an update to say that she has recorded the suites, and the album (on Pentatone) is available for streaming. I sampled it today and was quite impressed. Her tone is straightforward - minimal to no vibrato, but warm and unfussy. Her interpretations are well thought-out and full of expressive freedom - she really brought some great ideas to the table that I had never heard before, like changing the dynamics in the opening phrases of the No. 6 Prelude to create an "echo effect." The quicker dance movements are well-articulated and the sarabandes are quite luscious. Her rubato can be quite heavy at times, so if you like the suites played with minimal inflection I would stay away. But I like her willingness to be adventurous and find new ways to play this music. My major complaint is that it sounds like she thought very thoroughly about she wanted to play everything and sticks rigidly to her "plan" with little impulsiveness, not willing to take many risks. You don't get the improvisatory element that Casals pioneered, nor the wiser, more magisterial Starker school - I would say it's a cross between the two. But overall I think it's a winner with consistently smart and elegant musicianship. Anyone else heard it?


----------



## wkasimer

Allegro Con Brio said:


> This was from more than a year ago, but I just wanted to provide an update to say that she has recorded the suites, and the album (on Pentatone) is available for streaming. I sampled it today and was quite impressed. Her tone is straightforward - minimal to no vibrato, but warm and unfussy. Her interpretations are well thought-out and full of expressive freedom - she really brought some great ideas to the table that I had never heard before, like changing the dynamics in the opening phrases of the No. 6 Prelude to create an "echo effect." The quicker dance movements are well-articulated and the sarabandes are quite luscious. Her rubato can be quite heavy at times, so if you like the suites played with minimal inflection I would stay away. But I like her willingness to be adventurous and find new ways to play this music. My major complaint is that it sounds like she thought very thoroughly about she wanted to play everything and sticks rigidly to her "plan" with little impulsiveness, not willing to take many risks. You don't get the improvisatory element that Casals pioneered, nor the wiser, more magisterial Starker school - I would say it's a cross between the two. But overall I think it's a winner with consistently smart and elegant musicianship. Anyone else heard it?


I listened via Spotify, and enjoyed it a great deal, with a similar view to yours. As the timings would suggest, this is a somewhat leisurely journey through the suites, but unlike, say, Mainardi's recordings, it sounds as though Weilerstein is taking her time out of interpretive choice, rather than necessity.

I would also add the the recorded sound is fantastic, even via Spotify.


----------



## Sad Al

I borrowed this from a local library. Can't do that anymore. Comment?


----------



## JSBach85

I am too late in this thread but I would like to ask a question. Do you know about performances using a 18th century historical cello? (If possible, not replica).

Thank you in advance


----------



## NLAdriaan

Bulldog said:


> Mine are Casals, Bylsma, ter Linden, Pergamenschikow, Yo-Yo Ma, Kirshbaum, Dieltiens, Bruns, Beschi, Fournier, Wispelwey, Sheppard, Maisky, Carrai, Rostropovich, Markson, Suzuki and a few others. Beschi (Winter & Winter) is my favorite - HIP to the max and sharp to piercing.


Thanks for your Beschi tip of years ago, didn't know him, am listening now, as if you are in the Cello, still a very worthwile addition!


----------



## NLAdriaan

JSBach85 said:


> I am too late in this thread but I would like to ask a question. Do you know about performances using a 18th century historical cello? (If possible, not replica).
> 
> Thank you in advance


Also just popped in here and can pass on the recording, mentioned in this thread by Bulldog on the Winter&Winter label by Paolo Beschi, recorded on a 18th century cello. great recording! Another tip would be Anner Bylsma, who (on the Seon recording that I have), plays a cello from the 17th century (1699). Also Pieter Wispelwey made his awarded Bach recordings on a 18th century cello. So, plenty to go for.


----------



## ZeR0

For me, it doesn't get any better than Pierre Fournier. Splendid performances and high quality recording.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

ZeR0 said:


> For me, it doesn't get any better than Pierre Fournier. Splendid performances and high quality recording.


Perhaps someone could help me understand this recording. I've listened to it plenty of times, it being typically one of the foremost recommendations for the suites, and one that seems to be held in very high regard. Even when I was unfamiliar with the music, I really wasn't very impressed at all by it. The cello tone is thin and anemic (is it a historical instrument?), and the playing strikes me as unimaginative with little personal inflection. Some cellists make the thin tone work (like Anner Bylsma, one of my hands-down favorites) but I just find Fournier bland compared to the opulence of Kirshbaum, the lyricism of Queyras, the authority of Starker, the breeziness of Bylsma, etc. What is it about this recording that causes people to speak of it in the same breath as Casals, etc.?


----------



## JSBach85

NLAdriaan said:


> Also just popped in here and can pass on the recording, mentioned in this thread by Bulldog on the Winter&Winter label by Paolo Beschi, recorded on a 18th century cello. great recording! Another tip would be Anner Bylsma, who (on the Seon recording that I have), plays a cello from the 17th century (1699). Also Pieter Wispelwey made his awarded Bach recordings on a 18th century cello. So, plenty to go for.


I only have Jaap Ter Linden that uses a 18th century cello but I think it would be great to get Bylsma who besides uses a 17th century cello is a great performer.


----------



## NLAdriaan

JSBach85 said:


> I only have Jaap Ter Linden that uses a 18th century cello but I think it would be great to get Bylsma who besides uses a 17th century cello is a great performer.


Bylsma recorded the Bach suites twice. His first recording is from 1979 for Seon/RCA on his own instrument, a 1699 Goffrileri cello. His second recording is from 1992 for Sony on a famous cello, the Stradivarius 'Servais' from 1701, on loan from the Smithsonian institute. This instrument actually has its own Wikipedia page

To be frank, I tend to listen to the earlier Seon recording, but this might also be because I got to know the suites through this recording. The Sony recording is actually more playful and lighter and if I should get one, I would get this one.

Reportedly, Bylsma was unhappy with both recordings, but we will never get another one. Bylsma passed away last summer at the age of 85.


----------



## Euler

JSBach85 said:


> I am too late in this thread but I would like to ask a question. Do you know about performances using a 18th century historical cello? (If possible, not replica).
> 
> Thank you in advance


"Baroque cello" means different things to different people -- the age of the cello's body is the tip of the iceberg. More important are the bridge and fingerboard size and angle, the support posture (legs vs endpin), gut vs steelcore strings, and especially baroque bow vs modern bow. Some cellists use a mix of modern and historical elements.

Fr'instance, on Bylsma's recording with the Servais Stradivarius, he used gut strings, an endpin and a modern bow. Endpin gives a more resonant sound since the cello's body is not damped by the calves. Modern bows deliver even power from frog (heel) to tip, whereas Baroque bows are powerful at the frog and weak at the tip, giving natural decrescendo with down-bows. For Baroque dance music, you get an automatic playfulness from a Baroque bow, with a strong downbeat and lighter second beat. But up-bows are weak, and long even notes are much easier with a modern bow. Bow design is a big part of the instrument, and certainly makes a difference to the end result, even in the hands of a top pro.


----------



## Mandryka

Euler said:


> "Baroque cello" means different things to different people -- the age of the cello's body is the tip of the iceberg. More important are the bridge and fingerboard size and angle, the support posture (legs vs endpin), gut vs steelcore strings, and especially baroque bow vs modern bow. Some cellists use a mix of modern and historical elements.
> 
> Fr'instance, on Bylsma's recording with the Servais Stradivarius, he used gut strings, an endpin and a modern bow. Endpin gives a more resonant sound since the cello's body is not damped by the calves. Modern bows deliver even power from frog (heel) to tip, whereas Baroque bows are powerful at the frog and weak at the tip, giving natural decrescendo with down-bows. For Baroque dance music, you get an automatic playfulness from a Baroque bow, with a strong downbeat and lighter second beat. But up-bows are weak, and long even notes are much easier with a modern bow. Bow design is a big part of the instrument, and certainly makes a difference to the end result, even in the hands of a top pro.


Very interesting.

Do you know anything about the cello on this Bylsma recording, which is a great favourite of mine because of the transcription of BWV 1013









I've only just noticed, posting that image, that it says violincello piccolo -- does that mean he held it to his shoulder like a violin?


----------



## Euler

Mandryka said:


> Very interesting.
> 
> Do you know anything about the cello on this Bylsma recording, which is a great favourite of mine because of the transcription of BWV 1013
> 
> View attachment 133489
> 
> 
> I've only just noticed, posting that image, that it says violincello piccolo -- does that mean he held it to his shoulder like a violin?


I think he played a half-size cello between his legs; gut strings (he hated metal strings) tuned up a fifth, i.e. an octave below violin, so the violin pieces are in the right key; and Baroque bow. But I'm not 100% certain!


----------



## Merl

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Perhaps someone could help me understand this recording. I've listened to it plenty of times, it being typically one of the foremost recommendations for the suites, and one that seems to be held in very high regard. Even when I was unfamiliar with the music, I really wasn't very impressed at all by it. The cello tone is thin and anemic (is it a historical instrument?), and the playing strikes me as unimaginative with little personal inflection. Some cellists make the thin tone work (like Anner Bylsma, one of my hands-down favorites) but I just find Fournier bland compared to the opulence of Kirshbaum, the lyricism of Queyras, the authority of Starker, the breeziness of Bylsma, etc. What is it about this recording that causes people to speak of it in the same breath as Casals, etc.?


You're not alone. I never got the fuss either. Another case of hype and rose-tinted spectacles for me. Good choices of Starker, Bylsma and Queyras too. I never liked Casals either but hey ho, different strokes and all that.


----------



## aioriacont

There's a very interesting recording on Lute by Hopkinson Smith. He also performs the Sonatas and Partitas for Violin Solo. I love the lute sound on those works.
On cello itself, I really enjoy Queyras recording.


----------



## aioriacont

I'm really curious to check Ryo Terakado's approach to the Cello Suites and the Sonatas and Partitas for Violin Solo. But his recordings seem nowhere to be found. 
Ryo Terakado is the cellist of Bach Collegium Japan (Masaaki Suzuki's group who performs Bach's sacred works).


----------



## premont

aioriacont said:


> I'm really curious to check Ryo Terakado's approach to the Cello Suites and the Sonatas and Partitas for Violin Solo. But his recordings seem nowhere to be found.
> Ryo Terakado is the cellist of Bach Collegium Japan (Masaaki Suzuki's group who performs Bach's sacred works).


https://www.amazon.de/Bach-Cello-Su...s=ryo+terakado&qid=1587846993&s=music&sr=1-11

https://www.amazon.de/Bach-J-S-Part...ds=ryo+terakado&qid=1587847068&s=music&sr=1-7


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

Allegro Con Brio said:


> This was from more than a year ago, but I just wanted to provide an update to say that she has recorded the suites, and the album (on Pentatone) is available for streaming. I sampled it today and was quite impressed. Her tone is straightforward - minimal to no vibrato, but warm and unfussy. Her interpretations are well thought-out and full of expressive freedom - she really brought some great ideas to the table that I had never heard before, like changing the dynamics in the opening phrases of the No. 6 Prelude to create an "echo effect." The quicker dance movements are well-articulated and the sarabandes are quite luscious. Her rubato can be quite heavy at times, so if you like the suites played with minimal inflection I would stay away. But I like her willingness to be adventurous and find new ways to play this music. My major complaint is that it sounds like she thought very thoroughly about she wanted to play everything and sticks rigidly to her "plan" with little impulsiveness, not willing to take many risks. You don't get the improvisatory element that Casals pioneered, nor the wiser, more magisterial Starker school - I would say it's a cross between the two. But overall I think it's a winner with consistently smart and elegant musicianship. Anyone else heard it?


Presto carries this now. There are a few movements available on YouTube. https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8765771--bach-cello-suites


----------



## staxomega

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Perhaps someone could help me understand this recording. I've listened to it plenty of times, it being typically one of the foremost recommendations for the suites, and one that seems to be held in very high regard. Even when I was unfamiliar with the music, I really wasn't very impressed at all by it. The cello tone is thin and anemic (is it a historical instrument?), and the playing strikes me as unimaginative with little personal inflection. Some cellists make the thin tone work (like Anner Bylsma, one of my hands-down favorites) but I just find Fournier bland compared to the opulence of Kirshbaum, the lyricism of Queyras, the authority of Starker, the breeziness of Bylsma, etc. What is it about this recording that causes people to speak of it in the same breath as Casals, etc.?


Can I ask what it is you like about Casals? Not intended to be derisive at all, but a genuine question. Of the ones you've mentioned I'm drawn to Queyras and Bylsma (Vivarte recording from the 90s).

I recently got the Opus Kura reissue which sounds better than all other transfers I have heard and I am still trying to get to grips with his interpretations. In the past it was his choice of tempi in some movements, but after breaking my mindset of having some rigid view on how these are to be played I might be able to hear what Casals is about.

====

Arnau Tomas came first in a blind listening test on GMG, I've been unable to find it to purchase or listen to. The label didn't reply to my emails.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

staxomega said:


> Can I ask what it is you like about Casals? Not intended to be derisive at all, but a genuine question. Of the ones you've mentioned I'm drawn to Queyras and Bylsma (Vivarte recording from the 90s).
> 
> I recently got the Opus Kura reissue which sounds better than all other transfers I have heard and I am still trying to get to grips with his interpretations. In the past it was his choice of tempi in some movements, but after breaking my mindset of having some rigid view on how these are to be played I might be able to hear what Casals is about.


It's the feeling that he making up the music on the spot. So spontaneous, improvisatory, heartfelt; really some of the most personal music-making I've ever heard. Perhaps it really was because he actually "discovered" the music, but there's just such a joyful sense of discovery that gets me every time. But of course there are so many other brilliant interpretations out there and Casals is a formidable standard but he's still not my overall favorite - that would be Ralph Kirshbaum.


----------



## staxomega

Allegro Con Brio said:


> It's the feeling that he making up the music on the spot. So spontaneous, improvisatory, heartfelt; really some of the most personal music-making I've ever heard. Perhaps it really was because he actually "discovered" the music, but there's just such a joyful sense of discovery that gets me every time. But of course there are so many other brilliant interpretations out there and Casals is a formidable standard but he's still not my overall favorite - that would be Ralph Kirshbaum.


Just finished listening to the third suite and I can totally agree about the somewhat improvisatory nature, there is an airyness in his phrasing. These Opus Kura transfers finally have some "meat on the bone" and Casals' tone is what I imagine sounds closer to the 78s. Weirdly Ward Marston is usually really exceptional with historical transfers but the ones he did for Naxos sound thin and give Casals this wiry tone.


----------



## wkasimer

staxomega said:


> Arnau Tomas came first in a blind listening test on GMG, I've been unable to find it to purchase or listen to. The label didn't reply to my emails.


Here you go:

https://www.amazon.com/Cello-Suiten/dp/B00P08LCEA

It's also on Spotify.


----------



## wkasimer

staxomega said:


> Just finished listening to the third suite and I can totally agree about the somewhat improvisatory nature, there is an airyness in his phrasing. These Opus Kura transfers finally have some "meat on the bone" and Casals' tone is what I imagine sounds closer to the 78s. Weirdly Ward Marston is usually really exceptional with historical transfers but the ones he did for Naxos sound thin and give Casals this wiry tone.


I agree - I think that Marston does better with voices than with instrumental material. I was also disappointed with his Casals transfer, and agree that the Opus Kura, especially their more recent re-do, sound much better, as do Seth Winner's on an OOP Pearl set. And the latest EMI transfer is actually pretty good.

Love your avatar, BTW - one of my favorite sets of the Beethoven sonatas.


----------



## staxomega

wkasimer said:


> Here you go:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Cello-Suiten/dp/B00P08LCEA
> 
> It's also on Spotify.


Huh not sure why it didn't come up on Spotify the first time I tried to listen to it. I prefer buying on CD opposed to download, there was a seller from Thailand that had it on Amazon, but cancelled my order after I ordered. Looks like he finally took it down. I will give it a listen this evening.



wkasimer said:


> I agree - I think that Marston does better with voices than with instrumental material. I was also disappointed with his Casals transfer, and agree that the Opus Kura, especially their more recent re-do, sound much better, as do Seth Winner's on an OOP Pearl set. And the latest EMI transfer is actually pretty good.
> 
> Love your avatar, BTW - one of my favorite sets of the Beethoven sonatas.


I think Marston does a great job with piano releases as well, as long as no higher up in the label chain alters what he transferred. Everything on his own label has minimal high frequency filtering and never any noise reduction (ie Cedar).

When did the newer Opus Kura release come out? This is the release I have: https://www.discogs.com/Johann-Seba...s-JS-Bach-Cello-Suites-No-1-6/release/9932385

Discogs says release date of 2010, but my CDs and back of the art say 2003. OPK-2041/2 catalog.

This is indeed among my favorite Beethoven Piano Cycles, if not my favorite, just absolutely exceptional. I was able to see him play a program of Schubert, Berio and Widmann in NYC, the real highlight being a stunning D959, IMO slightly better than what he released on record. I think a bit more spontaneity live opposed to achieving perfection in the recording studio helped. But that Vol 1 Schubert release was still among my personal best the year it came out.


----------



## wkasimer

staxomega said:


> Huh not sure why it didn't come up on Spotify the first time I tried to listen to it.


It didn't for me, either, because my spell check changed his name to Arno Thomas instead of Arnau Tomas.



> When did the newer Opus Kura release come out? This is the release I have: https://www.discogs.com/Johann-Seba...s-JS-Bach-Cello-Suites-No-1-6/release/9932385


The only place I've seen the remaster is at Presto:

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7963380--bach-j-s-cello-suites-nos-1-6-bwv1007-1012

I don't think that Opus Kura changed the catalogue number, which makes it confusing.


----------



## staxomega

wkasimer said:


> It didn't for me, either, because my spell check changed his name to Arno Thomas instead of Arnau Tomas.
> 
> The only place I've seen the remaster is at Presto:
> 
> https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7963380--bach-j-s-cello-suites-nos-1-6-bwv1007-1012
> 
> I don't think that Opus Kura changed the catalogue number, which makes it confusing.


I managed to find it on Spotify, I've only been able to give it a cursory listen so far.

It is indeed confusing because if that obi strip paper on the outside where to be lost you'd have no way of knowing which version you have  I picked mine up at a used record store, both discs are a mustard yellow color.

Do you mind saying what is better about the newer transfer? Opus Kura has a sample up on their website but no indication if it is the old one or new one (some of these smaller label websites can be out of date): http://www.opuskura.com/Disk1/040.mp3


----------



## wkasimer

staxomega said:


> Do you mind saying what is better about the newer transfer? Opus Kura has a sample up on their website but no indication if it is the old one or new one (some of these smaller label websites can be out of date): http://www.opuskura.com/Disk1/040.mp3


Here's an old thread about the subject: Opus Kura - Casals Bach Cello Suites 78 Transfers (2010 Re-Master)?

To be honest, I can't remember specifics, except that I kept the newer version at home and brought the older Opus Kura to the office. What I do remember was that the difference was pretty subtle; the new one was a pretty typical Opus Kura transfer - forward with a fair amount of surface noise, but with very realistic cello tone. And the difference between the two Opus Kura transfers is far less than the difference between either of them and other companies' transfers. Unless you're absolutely fanatical, it's probably not necessary to "upgrade" to the 2010 Opus Kura.


----------



## Art Rock

Aside from the usual cello, I've heard the suites in transcriptions for violin, for viola, for double bass, and for guitar. All reasonably successful. I'm now listening for the first time to a transcription for tuba. No, just no.


----------



## Merl

Art Rock said:


> Aside from the usual cello, I've heard the suites in transcriptions for violin, for viola, for double bass, and for guitar. All reasonably successful. I'm now listening for the first time to a transcription for tuba. No, just no.


How long before the suites are recorded on kazoo?


----------



## staxomega

wkasimer said:


> Here's an old thread about the subject: Opus Kura - Casals Bach Cello Suites 78 Transfers (2010 Re-Master)?
> 
> To be honest, I can't remember specifics, except that I kept the newer version at home and brought the older Opus Kura to the office. What I do remember was that the difference was pretty subtle; the new one was a pretty typical Opus Kura transfer - forward with a fair amount of surface noise, but with very realistic cello tone. And the difference between the two Opus Kura transfers is far less than the difference between either of them and other companies' transfers. Unless you're absolutely fanatical, it's probably not necessary to "upgrade" to the 2010 Opus Kura.


Thanks for the info, that MP3 sample I linked sounds very "un-Opus Kura" with how poor it sounds, I have to wonder what version this is.

Arnau Tomas - I listened to the third suite, I'm having a hard time saying anything about it, nothing really stands out in a good or bad way.


----------



## wkasimer

Art Rock said:


> Aside from the usual cello, I've heard the suites in transcriptions for violin, for viola, for double bass, and for guitar. All reasonably successful. I'm now listening for the first time to a transcription for tuba. No, just no.


What about saxophone? You have your choice:


----------



## jegreenwood

I've played - not all that well - transcriptions for the clarinet.


----------



## pianozach

In my collection - Bach Cello Suites?

Not much

*Cello Suite #1 In G, BWV 1007; Praeludium* - *Yo-Yo Ma*


----------



## Merl

wkasimer said:


> What about saxophone? You have your choice:
> 
> View attachment 135011
> View attachment 135012


No, just no! .....................


----------



## Varick

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Perhaps someone could help me understand this recording. I've listened to it plenty of times, it being typically one of the foremost recommendations for the suites, and one that seems to be held in very high regard. Even when I was unfamiliar with the music, I really wasn't very impressed at all by it. The cello tone is thin and anemic (is it a historical instrument?), and the playing strikes me as unimaginative with little personal inflection. Some cellists make the thin tone work (like Anner Bylsma, one of my hands-down favorites) but I just find Fournier bland compared to the opulence of Kirshbaum, the lyricism of Queyras, the authority of Starker, the breeziness of Bylsma, etc. What is it about this recording that causes people to speak of it in the same breath as Casals, etc.?


This is what makes a ball game: I find Fournier the opposite of bland. I find his tones rich with deep inflection. He has a fullness and warmth in his phrasing. I think he is the tops. a VERY close second would be Starker.

V


----------



## Helgi

I'm looking to get the Fournier set and they recently reissued it with a Blu-ray version. The box says "2 CD remastered original recording + Blu-ray" but then they say:



> ... a new 24bit/192kHz remastering on Blu-ray Audio disc. This new reissue also includes two CDs and comprehensive editorial.


It's not clear to me if the CDs are any different from the Originals reissue from '96?


----------



## wkasimer

Helgi said:


> I'm looking to get the Fournier set and they recently reissued it with a Blu-ray version. The box says "2 CD remastered original recording + Blu-ray" but then they say:
> 
> It's not clear to me if the CDs are any different from the Originals reissue from '96?


I'm not sure that it really matters, for two reasons. First, the previous incarnations of this set sounded just fine to my ears. But second, and more important, is that I think that while these recordings were essential back in 1961, the ensuing six decades have seen many recorded performances that I find vastly superior.


----------



## Helgi

Yes, the Archiv release on Spotify sounds great — but if there's a newly remastered version, then... well, you know 

I have Queyras as my only set so far, and so I guess I'm looking for something that provides contrast to that. I've already decided to get the Schiff set, but (to my ears at least) his approach is very similar to Queyras'.

Edit: Now that you (and Merl) have me second guessing Fournier I suppose I'll keep looking. So many options!


----------



## Merl

Helgi said:


> Yes, the Archiv release on Spotify sounds great - but if there's a newly remastered version, then... well, you know
> 
> I have Queyras as my only set so far, and so I guess I'm looking for something that provides contrast to that. I've already decided to get the Schiff set, but (to my ears at least) his approach is very similar to Queyras'.
> 
> Edit: Now that you (and Merl) have me second guessing Fournier I suppose I'll keep looking. So many options!


Have you tried Zelenka, Bailey, Starker (RCA), Bylsma or (one of my faves) Haimovitz 2 (Magdelena manuscript)? If you can, listen first to any of these. If you have a Spotify account there's ridiculous amounts on there and tbf there's few recordings that I really cannot tolerate. Really depends what kind of sound you want (please specify). Queyras and Schiff are great sets though.


----------



## wkasimer

Helgi said:


> Yes, the Archiv release on Spotify sounds great - but if there's a newly remastered version, then... well, you know


If you have access to Spotify, there are dozens you can sample. Ones that have recently appealed to me are Skoraczewski, Demenga, Vardai, Pandolfo, Beschi, Swarts, Weilerstein, Kirshbaum, Gastinel, Ma's third version, and Wispelwey's second. And you really should hear Casals for historic reasons.


----------



## Helgi

I have Spotify and I suppose that's part of the problem! I like so many of these recordings that I get confused. I'm still developing an ear for the cello and so I suppose what I'm after is a variety of sound and different approaches.

Best thing would be to pick one, live with it for a while and then go onto the next one. Which is easier said than done given all these choices.

But thanks, guys — I'll check out some of the ones you've mentioned.


----------



## wkasimer

Helgi said:


> I have Spotify and I suppose that's part of the problem! I like so many of these recordings that I get confused. I'm still developing an ear for the cello and so I suppose what I'm after is a variety of sound and different approaches.


What makes it difficult is that the first one you've chosen - Queyras - is one of the best. If you're looking for contrast, I'd suggest Paolo Beschi's, Heinrich Schiff's, and Ralph Kirshbaum's.


----------



## Helgi

I listened to several different recordings over the weekend and am now a lot less confused about the whole thing, although my list of sets I might want to own (for one reason or another) keeps getting longer.

But I made some decisions and got the following:
- Kirshbaum
- Schiff
- Gaillard (2nd recording. Such a beautiful tone, her 6th suite is sublime)
- Watkin
- Gendron
- Bylsma (both recordings in a Sony box with misc. works)

So I'm now up to 8 sets total :lol:

There are so many subtle differences in sound and interpretation that having a few seems entirely justified.


----------



## wkasimer

Helgi said:


> I listened to several different recordings over the weekend and am now a lot less confused about the whole thing, although my list of sets I might want to own (for one reason or another) keeps getting longer.
> 
> But I made some decisions and got the following:
> - Kirshbaum
> - Schiff
> - Gaillard (2nd recording. Such a beautiful tone, her 6th suite is sublime)
> - Watkin
> - Gendron
> - Bylsma (both recordings in a Sony box with misc. works)


You chose well!



> So I'm now up to 8 sets total :lol:
> 
> There are so many subtle differences in sound and interpretation that having a few seems entirely justified.


You'll get no argument from me. After the last time I culled some of the sets I had, I'm down to about 40....


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

Helgi said:


> I listened to several different recordings over the weekend and am now a lot less confused about the whole thing, although my list of sets I might want to own (for one reason or another) keeps getting longer.
> 
> But I made some decisions and got the following:
> - Kirshbaum
> - Schiff
> - Gaillard (2nd recording. Such a beautiful tone, her 6th suite is sublime)
> - Watkin
> - Gendron
> - Bylsma (both recordings in a Sony box with misc. works)
> 
> So I'm now up to 8 sets total :lol:
> 
> There are so many subtle differences in sound and interpretation that having a few seems entirely justified.


You are wanting different approaches to these fantastic suites, then I urge you to look back to page 20 of this thread and read on from there. Some great and unique offerings are mentioned. Here are two I picked up. Zlotkin is an expertly ornamented recording that is from many decades back and holds up wonderfully. You will hear a world of difference from some of the ones you recently acquired, which are great recordings also.

I can't say enough how much I enjoy the Dumas recording. She uses a different bowing technique which she believe to be accurate to what would have been used in Bach's time. She gives an almost radically different version at times and I find it refreshing and exciting. Five stars for her!


----------



## Helgi

^ Thanks, I'll check these out when I'm ready for another haul.

One that I'm curious about is Haimovitz on Pentatone; breathtaking cello sound, but my initial impressions are that his use of dynamic contrasts gets in the way of the music a little. Have only heard the 1st suite, though, look forward to hearing more.


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## wkasimer

Oldhoosierdude said:


> You are wanting different approaches to these fantastic suites, then I urge you to look back to page 20 of this thread and read on from there. Some great and unique offerings are mentioned. Here are two I picked up. Zlotkin is an expertly ornamented recording that is from many decades back and holds up wonderfully. You will hear a world of difference from some of the ones you recently acquired, which are great recordings also.
> 
> I can't say enough how much I enjoy the Dumas recording. She uses a different bowing technique which she believe to be accurate to what would have been used in Bach's time. She gives an almost radically different version at times and I find it refreshing and exciting. Five stars for her!
> 
> View attachment 137483
> 
> 
> View attachment 137484


I love the Zlotkin - it's a unique recording.

As for Dumas, well, if that's the bowing technique that was used in Bach's day, I can understand why it is no longer used....


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## premont

wkasimer said:


> As for Dumas, well, if that's the bowing technique that was used in Bach's day, I can understand why it is no longer used....


Yes, her bowing technique (direction of stroke) is borrowed from viola da gamba playing, but inconsequently she keeps the bow overhand. Reminds me of Nicolaus Harnoncourt who played the gamba keeping the bow overhand.


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## Merl

Helgi said:


> ^ Thanks, I'll check these out when I'm ready for another haul.
> 
> One that I'm curious about is Haimovitz on Pentatone; breathtaking cello sound, but my initial impressions are that his use of dynamic contrasts gets in the way of the music a little. Have only heard the 1st suite, though, look forward to hearing more.


Another vote for the Zlotkin, it's a really interesting set. As for the Dumas it's proving to be a marmite set for many and I flit between enjoying it and then feeling bogged down. It's certainly an interesting approach and I need to listen to it much more. As far as the Haimovitz on Pentatone is concerned, I've championed it a lot but I do love the sound which, as you say, is "breathtaking". Whether people like the wide dynamic range is purely personal taste. I'm one of those people who does but fully understand that others may find it abrasive. Nice to have many different styles though.


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## Oldhoosierdude

Qobuz has Pentatone downloads at 80% off. Making this oft mentioned recording $2.39 US. I picked it up based on price alone. Hope I like it.
https://www.qobuz.com/us-en/album/j...o-anna-magdalena-matt-haimovitz/0827949055560


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## Mandryka

Oldhoosierdude said:


> Qobuz has Pentatone downloads at 80% off. Making this oft mentioned recording $2.39 US. I picked it up based on price alone. Hope I like it.
> https://www.qobuz.com/us-en/album/j...o-anna-magdalena-matt-haimovitz/0827949055560
> View attachment 142000


Does the booklet explain what's meant by " according to Anna Magdalena"?


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## Oldhoosierdude

Mandryka said:


> Does the booklet explain what's meant by " according to Anna Magdalena"?


Somewhat. A little too musical for me. I only vaguely understand.

I believe that information is available elsewhere.


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## Mandryka

Oldhoosierdude said:


> Somewhat. A little too musical for me. I only vaguely understand.
> 
> I believe that information is available elsewhere.


Yes I found the booklet here

https://www.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/booklets/PEN/booklet-PTC5186555.pdf

This caught my attention



> For another anomaly,
> in the tripartite Prélude to Suite IV,
> look just past the disorienting leadingtone-of-the-leading-tone in the bass:
> Anna Magdalena slurs thirty-eight
> notes under a single bow! Suspended in
> a foreign harmony, a ghost-like hand
> leads us through the wilderness.


He has also recorded the suites in an interpretation which ignores the Anna Magdelena slurs, here


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## SanAntone

I like from the more recent ones:

*Yo-Yo Ma*'s latest (3rd) traversal

View attachment 142026


*Thomas Demenga* boxed collection (although the individual discs with the 20th century works was a nice programming idea)

View attachment 142025


*Truls Monk*

View attachment 142028


*Arnau Tomas*

View attachment 142029


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## Oldhoosierdude

Oldhoosierdude said:


> Qobuz has Pentatone downloads at 80% off. Making this oft mentioned recording $2.39 US. I picked it up based on price alone. Hope I like it.
> https://www.qobuz.com/us-en/album/j...o-anna-magdalena-matt-haimovitz/0827949055560
> View attachment 142000


Listened through this one. Yes, different from most other interpretations. You can tell he is reading a different musical score if indeed that is what is causing the interpretation.

I wouldn't call this one a beautiful rendering. Not real showy or at all ornamental. Kind of a well thought out and considered, here's what the score says approach. But a lot to appreciate here.

Well worth $2.39.


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## Oldhoosierdude

I must comment on the cover.

- Jumbled letters? Looks pre-school.

- Playing at the root of a giant tree? I find it odd and in need of a smart remark which escapes me right now.

- His expression is almost a hangover look surprised by the camera flash.

Very strange.


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## Merl

Oldhoosierdude said:


> View attachment 142244
> 
> 
> I must comment on the cover.
> 
> - Jumbled letters? Looks pre-school.
> 
> - Playing at the root of a giant tree? I find it odd and in need of a smart remark which escapes me right now.
> 
> - His expression is almost a hangover look surprised by the camera flash.
> 
> Very strange.


I agree, it's a pretty awful cover and looks like something between Play School and the et of The Singing Ringing Tree. However, at least it's a memorable cover (and performance).


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## Varick

Helgi said:


> Edit: Now that you (and Merl) have me second guessing Fournier I suppose I'll keep looking. So many options!


Don't listen to that Scotish sot Merl! What does he know!!??  [Full disclosure: When I finally get to Scotland, he is the first person I'm looking up. We will drink copious amounts of scotch and smoke cigars (at least I'll be smoking cigars)].

Fournier is outstanding! So is Starker. Take a listen to both of them. They are well worth the time.

V


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## Merl

Varick said:


> Don't listen to that Scotish sot Merl! What does he know!!??  [Full disclosure: When I finally get to Scotland, he is the first person I'm looking up. We will drink copious amounts of scotch and smoke cigars (at least I'll be smoking cigars)].
> 
> Fournier is outstanding! So is Starker. Take a listen to both of them. They are well worth the time.
> 
> V


I don't smoke cigars, V, and prefer gin to whisky but ill take you up on that offer a long as you're paying.


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## Marc

My guess is that cellists like Dumas and Haimovitz were/are (also) inspired by the findings of the late Anner Bylsma during the 1990s.

http://www.bylsmafencing.com/
http://www.bylsmafencing.com/bach_the_fencing_master.html

Alas, Bylsma himself never took/had the chance to make a (3rd) recording, with more attention to the Anna Magdelena notations, slurs, et al.


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## Mandryka

Marc said:


> My guess is that cellists like Dumas and Haimovitz were/are (also) inspired by the findings of the late Anner Bylsma during the 1990s.
> 
> http://www.bylsmafencing.com/
> http://www.bylsmafencing.com/bach_the_fencing_master.html
> 
> Alas, Bylsma himself never took/had the chance to make a (3rd) recording, with more attention to the Anna Magdelena notations, slurs, et al.


I have a third recording from Bylsma, private, from concerts in Leiden in 1998 -- you are of course welcome to it, I can't say whether it is informed by the Anna Magdelena notations.


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## premont

Marc said:


> My guess is that cellists like Dumas and Haimovitz were/are (also) inspired by the findings of the late Anner Bylsma during the 1990s.
> 
> http://www.bylsmafencing.com/
> http://www.bylsmafencing.com/bach_the_fencing_master.html
> 
> Alas, Bylsma himself never took/had the chance to make a (3rd) recording, with more attention to the Anna Magdelena notations, slurs, et al.


Haimovitz, yes probably, but why Dumas? Her only special trait is that she reverts the strokes in viola da gamba manner. I never heard that Bijlsma had such thoughts.


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## Oldhoosierdude

Merl said:


> I don't smoke cigars, V, and prefer gin to whisky but ill take you up on that offer a long as you're paying.


Spoken like a Scotsman.


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## Marc

premont said:


> Haimovitz, yes probably, but why Dumas? Her only special trait is that she reverts the strokes in viola da gamba manner. I never heard that Bijlsma had such thoughts.


I do apologize. I mentioned the 'wrong' lady. I meant Angela East.


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## premont

Marc said:


> I do apologize. I mentioned the 'wrong' lady. I meant Angela East.


That makes much better sense.

No need to apologize though.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern

Does anyone know of any recordings where the Courantes and Gigues aren't taken ridiculously fast? There's such subtle phrasing, harmonies, and structure in the Bach suites that I feel like it doesn't give the listener enough time to digest them properly and make all the connections. It must be the interpretation that's stylistically appropriate for the era, but as a listen it's hard for me to enjoy listen to these movements because Yo-Yo Ma and Rostropovich blaze through them at Mach V, even though they're Yo-Yo Ma and Rostropovich. Again, I don't think it has anything to do with arrogance or showmanship that they play them so fast (I think those two, of all people, obviously put the music above their egos), but that's just the authentic Baroque way to interpret it. Nonetheless I'd like to hear a professional cellist play through these movements even just a tad bit slower.


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## Merl

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> Does anyone know of any recordings where the Courantes and Gigues aren't taken ridiculously fast? .


It's been a few years since I played it but I seem to recall Watkin's set having some unusual tempos (slower in places than others) but I can't remember if that was in the those particular movements. I'll track it down on Spotify or the HD later and have a listen. It's an impressive set, whatever.


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## Varick

Oldhoosierdude said:


> Spoken like a Scotsman.


You beat me to it.

V


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## Varick

Merl said:


> I don't smoke cigars, V, and prefer gin to whisky but ill take you up on that offer a long as you're paying.


If it's the summer, I'll join you in the gin.

V


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## wjb

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> Does anyone know of any recordings where the Courantes and Gigues aren't taken ridiculously fast?


The Lipkind has a pretty contemplative Allemande in Suite 6. I doubt you'll find a recording with a more leisurely pace!









As for the Courantes and Gigues, maybe try an older recording? Fournier's tempi in Suite 1 seem pretty slow by modern standards.


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## wkasimer

I haven't listened to either of his recordings in a few years, but I suspect that Enrico Mainardi's recordings would fit that criteria, but might not provide much enjoyment.

For something more palatable, try Casals, Kirshbaum, and Weilerstein.


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## Mandryka

Or Tobie Miller.


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## shadowdancer

Thomas Demenga in ECM


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## mparta

Daniil Shafran is a very important and highly reputed (I think, among cellists-- there's an interesting interview and correspondence about him from Steven Isserlis) Russian cellist. His recordings are available but not really mainstream in the US at least. I like his Bach and have his Beethoven Sonatas and some other concerted works.
It's an older very non-HIP style, but the playing is real.


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## premont

mparta said:


> Daniil Shafran is a very important and highly reputed (I think, among cellists-- there's an interesting interview and correspondence about him from Steven Isserlis) Russian cellist. His recordings are available but not really mainstream in the US at least. I like his Bach and have his Beethoven Sonatas and some other concerted works.
> It's an older very non-HIP style, but the playing is real.


I never warmed to Shafran. IMO his excessive vibrato and uneasy intonation ensures some rather painful listening.


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## mparta

I don't know about warming to him, I can listen and hear some great playing but I find the vibrato excessive also. I suggest finding that Isserlis interview (I'll look too), the comparison had to do with Shafran and Rostropovich in some way. In the way back machine, thus my faulty memory.

OK, voila!! Google it.

https://www.classicus.jp/shafran/articles/isserlis.html


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## Olias

This might have been mentioned (I just didn't want to read through 29 pages of posts) but Alisa Weilerstein came out with a marvelous recording about a year ago. It quickly became my favorite.


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## Oldhoosierdude

Olias said:


> This might have been mentioned (I just didn't want to read through 29 pages of posts) but Alisa Weilerstein came out with a marvelous recording about a year ago. It quickly became my favorite.


It has been mentioned. Many like it. I'll have to seek out out.


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## wjb

Excessive vibrato is probably the main reason I no longer immediately reach for Fournier, who was once my absolute favorite!

It seems like a preference for uncontrived, unaffected performances is pretty commonplace now. I'm certainly in this camp at least. It explains in part my addiction to the Queyras and Watkin recordings, and my ambivalence toward the latest Ma.

Which begs the question: Any romantics left in here? Vibrato enthusiasts, show yourselves!


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## sasdwf

Really great thread! Thanks for all the suggestions, some of which are new to me and will require further investigation. I’ve now listened to the Ralph Kirshbaum set and found it delightful. Some of my old favorites like all the Bylsma recordings and Queyras remain in my top tier, joined this time by the 2012 Wispelwey traversal and the first Ophelie Gaillard set. I was especially struck by the tonal variety in the Wispelwey set. Highly enjoyable.


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## Oldhoosierdude

wjb said:


> Excessive vibrato is probably the main reason I no longer immediately reach for Fournier, who was once my absolute favorite!
> 
> It seems like a preference for uncontrived, unaffected performances is pretty commonplace now. I'm certainly in this camp at least. It explains in part my addiction to the Queyras and Watkin recordings, and my ambivalence toward the latest Ma.
> 
> Which begs the question: Any romantics left in here? Vibrato enthusiasts, show yourselves!


I may or may not be and I don't even know what it's is.


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## wjb

I suppose "romantic" isn't as easy to define as I imagined, but I think a lot of it has to do with interpretive license. So, the use of rubato/ flexible tempi. In particular, I would say interpretations which aim to evoke emotion beyond what would be present in a more straightforward reading of the music. Heavy vibrato, for instance.

You might also define it as (excessively?) sentimental. Or as having a fondness for kissing in the rain.


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## Merl

wjb said:


> Excessive vibrato is probably the main reason I no longer immediately reach for Fournier, who was once my absolute favorite!
> 
> It seems like a preference for uncontrived, unaffected performances is pretty commonplace now. I'm certainly in this camp at least. It explains in part my addiction to the Queyras and Watkin recordings, and my ambivalence toward the latest Ma.
> 
> Which begs the question: Any romantics left in here? Vibrato enthusiasts, show yourselves!


I have no problem with vibrato but when it becomes constant or OTT then it's a massive 'no' from me (Maisky).


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## Itullian

My first listen and i am thoroughly enthralled.
So many insights here and emotions.
i was interested for every minute.
The only small thing i didnt like was there are a few wide dynamic swings as shee goes from soft to loud, but thats a minor complaint.
i think Ms Weilerstein has given us a special recording.


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## fluteman

wjb said:


> Excessive vibrato is probably the main reason I no longer immediately reach for Fournier, who was once my absolute favorite!
> 
> It seems like a preference for uncontrived, unaffected performances is pretty commonplace now. I'm certainly in this camp at least. It explains in part my addiction to the Queyras and Watkin recordings, and my ambivalence toward the latest Ma.
> 
> Which begs the question: Any romantics left in here? Vibrato enthusiasts, show yourselves!


Fournier's set has long been a favorite of mine as well, but I'm not insistent on what some call the "romantic" approach. For example, Tortellier seems to be even more in the Casals tradition, but I prefer Fournier.


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## 89Koechel

(Weilerstein) - OH, she's exceptional! She, in the past, gave an indication of her talents in the great chamber music concerts, at the Spoleto (SC) Festival, at the ol' Dock Street Theatre, in the mid-2000s (give or take). She can tackle Elgar, Dvorak or even Elliott Carter ... throughout the repertoire ... and the results are in her recordings. Possibly, she's the BEST cellist alive, today.


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## Oldhoosierdude

Oldhoosierdude said:


> You are wanting different approaches to these fantastic suites, then I urge you to look back to page 20 of this thread and read on from there. Some great and unique offerings are mentioned. Here are two I picked up. Zlotkin is an expertly ornamented recording that is from many decades back and holds up wonderfully. You will hear a world of difference from some of the ones you recently acquired, which are great recordings also.
> 
> I can't say enough how much I enjoy the Dumas recording. She uses a different bowing technique which she believe to be accurate to what would have been used in Bach's time. She gives an almost radically different version at times and I find it refreshing and exciting. Five stars for her!
> 
> View attachment 137483
> 
> 
> View attachment 137484


I'm listening to the Dumas again. Very different. I quite like the change of pace.


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## Varick

wjb said:


> Excessive vibrato is probably the main reason I no longer immediately reach for Fournier, who was once my absolute favorite!
> 
> It seems like a preference for uncontrived, unaffected performances is pretty commonplace now. I'm certainly in this camp at least. It explains in part my addiction to the Queyras and Watkin recordings, and my ambivalence toward the latest Ma.
> 
> Which begs the question: Any romantics left in here? Vibrato enthusiasts, show yourselves!





fluteman said:


> Fournier's set has long been a favorite of mine as well, but I'm not insistent on what some call the "romantic" approach. For example, Tortellier seems to be even more in the Casals tradition, but I prefer Fournier.


I am also a big proponent of Fournier. He is still my favorite in the Bach Suites. I don't find his vibrato excessive. I find such a great depth in his playing. I also do not find and overt "sentimentality" in his playing, which to me is a no no when it comes to Bach. Playing with no vibrato can often sound flat and non expressive.

I'm with you Fluteman. I enjoy Tortellier (as well as Starker) tremendously in the JSB Suites, but I too give the nod to Fournier. They are my three favorite renditions of the Suites. I will have to give Weilerstein a go.

V


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## premont

To my ears, Fournier's interpretation is academic and aristocratic, not unlike Wolfgang Schneiderhan's Bach recordings and an approach that suits Bach's music well. There are, of course, many other ways of interpreting Bach, but I always listen to Fournier's set with much pleasure.


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## JosephB

I have Mainardi (1955). On one of the movements of one of the suites, he plays a note written by Bach as though that note were wrong -- and does so each time the note comes up, _but_: the note is magically reconciled as 'correct' by the end of the movement. It seems to me to be a meditation on the failure in the human condition working out for goodness in the end.


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## Mandryka

JosephB said:


> I have Mainardi (1955). On one of the movements of one of the suites, he plays a note written by Bach as though that note were wrong -- and does so each time the note comes up, _but_: the note is magically reconciled as 'correct' by the end of the movement. It seems to me to be a meditation on the failure in the human condition working out for goodness in the end.


You tease! Which suite? Which movement?


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## JosephB

Cello Suite No. 4 in E-flat Major, BWV 1010 - IV. Sarabande

By the way, compared to other players, Mainardi plays the entire cycle of suites rather slowly.


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## Mandryka

Thanks, too slow for me I’m afraid, at least in my present mood, I can’t get past that, one day maybe!


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## wkasimer

Mandryka said:


> Thanks, too slow for me I'm afraid, at least in my present mood, I can't get past that, one day maybe!


If you think that those are bad, you ought to hear his later set, issued on Japanese Denon. Even worse.


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## JosephB

wkasimer said:


> If you think that those are bad, you ought to hear his later set, issued on Japanese Denon. Even worse.


I'm not sure if Mainardi's '55 cycle is wholly satisfying to me either, but that one movement always seemed magical to me.


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## Mandryka

Well turns out I was listening to the wrong one! I was listening to the Denon.

Assuming the 1955 is the one here then I can hear exactly what Joseph B is getting at.


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## pianoforever

Over the last few weeks I've gone through a pretty exhaustive comparison of the different sets I own, including Ma (I, II and III), Fournier (DG), Starker (RCA), Casals, Gendron, Schiff, Bylsma (1992), Rostropovich (EMI), Kirshbaum, Maisky, Wispelwey (I, II, II), Queyras, Isserlis. Here's my personal ranking:
I. Wispelwey, all three versions and finding his personal progression insightful and convincing. Boy, does he know those works?
II. Fournier for the sheer poetry, and Ma I for the disarming simplicity
III. Queyras for the energy and command of the instrument.


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## Oldhoosierdude

pianoforever said:


> Over the last few weeks I've gone through a pretty exhaustive comparison of the different sets I own, including Ma (I, II and III), Fournier (DG), Starker (RCA), Casals, Gendron, Schiff, Bylsma (1992), Rostropovich (EMI), Kirshbaum, Maisky, Wispelwey (I, II, II), Queyras, Isserlis. Here's my personal ranking:
> I. Wispelwey, all three versions and finding his personal progression insightful and convincing. Boy, does he know those works?
> II. Fournier for the sheer poetry, and Ma I for the disarming simplicity
> III. Queyras for the energy and command of the instrument.


Look back to post 391 on page 27 for some interesting suggestions


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## premont

Oldhoosierdude said:


> Look back to post 391 on page 27 for some interesting suggestions


Yes, if you own two dozens of sets Zlotkin and Dumas may add some interesting aspects, but I would not recommend them to a newcomer.


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## Oldhoosierdude

premont said:


> Yes, if you own two dozens of sets Zlotkin and Dumas may add some interesting aspects, but I would not recommend them to a newcomer.


And yet I did. 
Who decides what is right?
A question for all humankind.


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## premont

Oldhoosierdude said:


> And yet I did.
> Who decides what is right?
> A question for all humankind.


Well, I think they are too special for a newcomer, but I may be wrong. 

Did the newcomer(s) you refer to comment upon the recordings?


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## Oldhoosierdude

premont said:


> Well, I think they are too special for a newcomer, but I may be wrong.
> 
> Did the newcomer(s) you refer to comment upon the recordings?


Someone was asking for a "different approach". Those two are different approaches. I don't see a problem.

I find those two recordings interesting and a nice variation. Dumas gives an interesting interview on her approach. That's out there somewhere on the internet. She isn't just being different, it's a researched effort. Zlotkin adds a lot of extra, more than most others. Why not? Gould gets away with it.

Still those two recordings are just additions to my others. I like them all.


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## premont

Oldhoosierdude said:


> Someone was asking for a "different approach". Those two are different approaches. I don't see a problem.


We understand the word newcomer differently. Someone who asks for a different appproach is supposed to know the music (and particularly the traditional way of interpretation) and may for that reason not be called a newcomer. What I meant was that Dumas' and Zlotkin's recordings aren't suited to be a true newcomer's first acquaintance with the music.



Oldhoosierdude said:


> I find those two recordings interesting and a nice variation. Dumas gives an interesting interview on her approach. That's out there somewhere on the internet. She isn't just being different, it's a researched effort. Zlotkin adds a lot of extra, more than most others. Why not? Gould gets away with it.


Yes I find them interesting too. However I doubt that Dumas' reversed stroke is historically substantiated (wkasimer may know more about this), and Zlotkin's cornucopia of embellishments and ornamentation isn't suited for daily listening, but never-the-less serviceable for variation. 



Oldhoosierdude said:


> Still those two recordings are just additions to my others. I like them all.


The same here.


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## Oldhoosierdude

premont said:


> We understand the word newcomer differently. Someone who asks for a different appproach is supposed to know the music (and particularly the traditional way of interpretation) and may for that reason not be called a newcomer. What I meant was that Dumas' and Zlotkin's recordings aren't suited to be a true newcomer's first acquaintance with the music.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes I find them interesting too. However I doubt that Dumas' reversed stroke is historically substantiated (wkasimer may know more about this), and Zlotkin's cornucopia of embellishments and ornamentation isn't suited for daily listening, but never-the-less serviceable for variation.
> 
> 
> 
> The same here.


Good thing I didn't suggest the new Snoop dog rap version.


----------

