# Hendrix's New C.M.



## Amadea (Apr 15, 2021)

Not many know, but before dying Jimi Hendrix had in mind two things:

- A collab with Miles Davis which never occured because Davis asked too much money.
- To create _*A NEW TYPE OF CLASSICAL MUSIC!*_

Apparently, Jimi Hendrix listened to everything, even a lot of classical music, romantics in particular. Hendrix didn't know any music theory, he was a selftaught guitarist who couldn't even read music and learned by imitating the music at the radio. Yet, even if he knew nothing, this giant was able to shock Miles Davis and inspire him to create the masterpiece "Bitches Brew". Before his death, which was not intentional, he was apparently trying to take some music theory lessons from a friend who was a jazz musician. Hendrix had in mind to create a new type of classical music, trying to blend classical with rock, jazz, etc., black american music. What do you think? Do you know someone who tried similar things with rock included?

Edit: There is symphonic metal (which I don't like that much) and we can also count some things by Queen maybe. But I was really thinking of a more "composer-like approach" rather than songwriting. Maybe in Rock Opera?


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

There have been quite a few actually: George Gershwin, Aaron Copland, Leroy Dawson, arguably Scott Joplin, the list goes on. It's intriguing to speculate about how Jimi Hendrix' individual take on this might have turned out, but he would not have been the first.


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## Amadea (Apr 15, 2021)

Animal the Drummer said:


> There have been quite a few actually: George Gershwin, Aaron Copland, Leroy Dawson, arguably Scott Joplin, the list goes on.


Did they try to include 60s rock 'n' roll, funk and soul though? Gershwin and Joplin died before rock was born, I don't know about Aaron Copland using rock, and Leroy Dawson I'm sorry to say I don't know who he is (can't even find results with google). I think experiments have been done in musicals though (I am ignorant on this subject, I've never liked musicals). The beauty of Hendrix's music is that he blends hard rock and blues with soul and funk. He was trying with jazz too. Imagine a classical music like that what would be.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Had the results been along the lines of Deep Purple's _Concerto for Group and Orchestra_ then perhaps it's best in this case that fate intervened.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Maybe the best known example coming from the classical side is Bernstein's Mass. Coming from the pop/rock side, there is Deep Purple's Jon Lord's Concerto for group (i.e. rock band) and orchestra.


ETA: I see elgars ghost also posted about the Lord piece while I was searching for the official title.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Something like Julia Wolfe's "Lick", maybe?


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Amadea said:


> Did they try to include 60s rock 'n' roll, funk and soul though? Gershwin and Joplin died before rock was born, I don't know about Aaron Copland using rock, and Leroy Dawson I'm sorry to say I don't know who he is (can't even find results with google). I think experiments have been done in musicals though (I am ignorant on this subject, I've never liked musicals). The beauty of Hendrix's music is that he blends hard rock and blues with soul and funk. He was trying with jazz too. Imagine a classical music like that what would be.


Well, you did say "similar", not "identical", though rock would be a new addition to the list. William Leroy Dawson, an African-American composer, wrote a symphony which was praised and premiered by Stokowski - I've come across a reference in the past to his habitually calling himself Leroy for preference, but on reflection I should have given him his full name.


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## Amadea (Apr 15, 2021)

Animal the Drummer said:


> Well, you did say "similar", not "identical", though rock would be a new addition to the list. William Leroy Dawson, an African-American composer, wrote a symphony which was praised and premiered by Stokowski - I've come across a reference in the past to his habitually calling himself Leroy for preference, but on reflection I should have given him his full name.


Sorry, by similar I meant including rock. I should have been more specific. Anyway, I'll look into Leroy then, thanks.


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## Amadea (Apr 15, 2021)

Art Rock said:


> Maybe the best known example coming from the classical side is Bernstein's Mass. Coming from the pop/rock side, there is Deep Purple's Jon Lord's Concerto for group (i.e. rock band) and orchestra.
> 
> ETA: I see elgars ghost also posted about the Lord piece while I was searching for the official title.


I didn't know about those pieces, expecially Bernstein. Thanks. I knew Deep Purple had some classical influences, I didn't know about the concerto though. I'm listening to the concerto right now, it isn't that bad.


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## Amadea (Apr 15, 2021)

elgars ghost said:


> Had the results been along the lines of Deep Purple's _Concerto for Group and Orchestra_ then perhaps it's best in this case that fate intervened.


I didn't know the piece and I'm listening to it right now. It isn't so bad in my opinion. Definitely an interesting experiment. Why do you dislike it?


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I just think it's an unhappy marriage. The band hadn't quite fine-tuned the hard rock sound for which they would soon become known, and the whole thing sounds too awkward, at least to me. I admire them - or rather Jon Lord - for giving it a go, but I'd probably have been better disposed towards the piece had it not featured the group at all - and let's not forget that there is a bloody drum solo...


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Amadea said:


> Not many know, but before dying Jimi Hendrix had in mind two things:
> 
> - A collab with Miles Davis which never occured because Davis asked too much money.
> - To create _*A NEW TYPE OF CLASSICAL MUSIC!*_
> ...


well, probably the most obvious answer I can think of is Frank Zappa who in his music mixed elements of rock, jazz, classical and black music (like doo-***, blues and jazz). It's funny, just yesterday I watched a interview with Zappa where he's talking about Hendrix and he was saying that in his opinion Jimi needed someone who was able to read and write music to put his ideas on paper.
Someone would say also that prog rock musicians was going exactly in that direction, altough without the black elements (Hendrix was a big fan of King Crimson and Robert Fripp for what I remember).
In any case while it's true that Miles Davis wanted to make music with Hendrix, I'm not sure one could hear that on Bitches Brew. I'd say that influence is more pronounced on later albums with great guitarists like Pete Cosey and Dominique Gaumont (by the way Gaumont's Energy is a must for whoever is into that kind of music)


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## Amadea (Apr 15, 2021)

norman bates said:


> well, probably the most obvious answer I can think of is Frank Zappa who in his music mixed elements of rock, jazz, classical and black music (like doo-***, blues and jazz). It's funny, just yesterday I watched a interview with Zappa where he's talking about Hendrix and he was saying that in his opinion Jimi needed someone who was able to read and write music to put his ideas on paper.
> Someone would say also that prog rock musicians was going exactly in that direction, altough without the black elements (Hendrix was a big fan of King Crimson and Robert Fripp for what I remember).
> In any case while it's true that Miles Davis wanted to make music with Hendrix, I'm not sure one could hear that on Bitches Brew. I'd say that influence is more pronounced on later albums with great guitarists like Pete Cosey and Dominique Gaumont (by the way Gaumont's Energy is a must for whoever is into that kind of music)


I was talking about the fact Davis got the idea of Bitches Brew watching Hendrix at Woodstock (so I've heard). You should also notice in Bitches Brew there's a track called "Miles Runs the Voodoo Down", which is believed to be an omage to Hendrix.





Anyway, about Zappa, yes you're right but Zappa mostly liked people like Varese and hated Mozart, Beethoven and so on. I heard his words on Hendrix too and I do agree.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I can't imagine Hendrix producing classical music. But then I can't think of a single instance (including Zappa) where someone has done so successfully. The result, for me, is always embarrassing. I also think Zappa was probably wrong about Hendrix. To say that he needed to be able to write his ideas down seems to presuppose his going in a Zappa-like direction. Towards the end of his life Hendrix's song writing and playing was tighter and more disciplined. He had already made lots of great rock music and he showed that he had lots more in him. Doing this without musical training is the more impressive and showed that his mind was filled with musical ideas and that he could recognise possibilities by ear alone (that is, without being able to name what they were). I suspect that if he had done something more classical it would have been like the bigger jazz works ... and so not really classical at all.


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## Amadea (Apr 15, 2021)

Enthusiast said:


> I can't imagine Hendrix producing classical music. But then I can't think of a single instance (including Zappa) where someone has done so successfully. The result, for me, is always embarrassing. I also think Zappa was probably wrong about Hendrix. To say that he needed to be able to write his ideas down seems to presuppose his going in a Zappa-like direction.


I think what Zappa meant is that he probably could have done more if someone helped him to organize his ideas and make them more ambitious. The problem is we don't really know what he could have done, he liked Strauss etc while Zappa liked Varese. Very different tastes result in different products.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^ Yes, I think that is what Zappa meant. It makes me wonder if making works more ambitious and organised is something that is desirable in rock music.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Enthusiast said:


> I can't imagine Hendrix producing classical music. But then I can't think of a single instance (including Zappa) where someone has done so successfully. The result, for me, is always embarrassing.


I think that Zappa composed some very interesting things in his career. Maybe the problem I have with the premise of this thread is the idea of a "new classical music". I mean, while Zappa was certainly influenced by a lot of (mainly modern) classical composer he hadn't the idea of making music in a certain genre or creating like a genre that would have been considered the new classical music of the western world talking the place of what Bach, Mozart and Beethoven did before. He was just making what he wanted to write.
And I don't know about Hendrix, but I don't get why something with a mixture of blues, rock, jazz, funk should be considered as a continuation of a european tradition when a lot of those genres derived from a black tradition.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

The first name that came to mind (arguably because I share it ) is Jonny Greenwood. I will admit I don’t know his classical music other than some film scores.


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## Amadea (Apr 15, 2021)

norman bates said:


> And I don't know about Hendrix, but I don't get why something with a mixture of blues, rock, jazz, funk should be considered as a continuation of a european tradition when a lot of those genres derived from a black tradition.


Does that mean we shouldn't consider Dvořák's 9th symphony classical music because he put afro-american melodies in it? Maybe the term "new type of classical music" as Hendrix called it is wrong, but he really meant a type of music with classical music as backbone.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Amadea said:


> Does that mean we shouldn't consider Dvořák's 9th symphony classical music because he put afro-american melodies in it? Maybe the term "new type of classical music" as Hendrix called it is wrong, but he really meant a type of music with classical music as backbone.


I don't know what Hendrix meant, and what kind of vision he had about this, but one of the things about his music blues, funk and jazz is that it's music that is very hard (or often impossible) to notate. I mean all the microrhythms of the swing, all the microtonal inflections of the blues, not to mention that blues and rock depends strongly on the performance, the vocals, the improvisation, the sound... I can't imagine how something like machine gun, with all its feedback could be put on a page accurately, and I don't know if another performer would be able to replicate it as Hendrix played it. I'm not saying it's impossible, and there are interesting examples of a distorted electric guitar used by a classical composer (like David Bedford with Mike Oldfield on The Odyssey or Star's end, or certain albums of Michael Mantler like Hapless Child), but Hendrix's music, at least the music I know of him doesn't seem easy to translate on a score accurately.


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## Amadea (Apr 15, 2021)

norman bates said:


> Hendrix's music, at least the music I know of him doesn't seem easy to translate on a score accurately.


You are right, that's a interesting point. Mmm. As you pointed out Hendrix was more interested in the sound that a piece had. I'm reading he liked Wagner and Strauss. Then he probably was thinking of them in terms of sounds, dynamics, how they use the orchestra, etc. Maybe I misunderstood the fact he apparently was taking some music theory lessons.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Has anyone mentioned the *Kronos Quartet*'s recording of Hendrix?


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## Amadea (Apr 15, 2021)

SanAntone said:


> Has anyone mentioned the *Kronos Quartet*'s recording of Hendrix?


No, I didn't know this!!!!!!! Omg thank you. Do you know others?


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

SanAntone said:


> Has anyone mentioned the *Kronos Quartet*'s recording of Hendrix?


Above someone said that rock musicians trying to do classical is always embarrassing. Classical musicians trying to do rock is just as bad. Kronos' blue notes and simulated bends really suck.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

EdwardBast said:


> Above someone said that rock musicians trying to do classical is always embarrassing. Classical musicians trying to do rock is just as bad. ...


Witness those horrible Philip Glass takes on Bowie albums.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

EdwardBast said:


> Above someone said that rock musicians trying to do classical is always embarrassing. Classical musicians trying to do rock is just as bad. Kronos' blue notes and simulated bends really suck.


I don't think it's completely bad. But there's a reason this doesn't happen that often with classical groups.

I had thought a friend of mine had recorded a jazz band version of Hendrix songs, but he did an album of Prince stuff. I also know another guy who's done a lot of Zappa for jazz band - and that came out excellent. Kristjan Järvi's (younger son of Neeme Järvi, Absolute Ensemble does Joe Zawanul live, which was pretty amazing.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Hendrix said about Mahler and Strauss: "Those cats were hot!" The only thing I remember from an interview I read in Guitar Player in the 80's. Norwegian Terje Rypdal is quite famous for both jazz and symphonic music. He is a tiny bit rock n roll since he plays louder than anything I've heard and has an easily recognizable crunchy and dreamy sound.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

consuono said:


> Witness those horrible Philip Glass takes on Bowie albums.


The _Low_ and _Heroes_ symphonies just sound like Philip Glass to me - I can't discern any kind of connection with the Bowie/Eno material they are named after.


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## Amadea (Apr 15, 2021)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Norwegian Terje Rypdal is quite famous for both jazz and symphonic music.


Which works would you recommend?


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

elgars ghost said:


> I just think it's an unhappy marriage. The band hadn't quite fine-tuned the hard rock sound for which they would soon become known, and the whole thing sounds too awkward, at least to me. I admire them - or rather Jon Lord - for giving it a go, but I'd probably have been better disposed towards the piece had it not featured the group at all - and let's not forget that there is a bloody drum solo...


I'm not a big fan of the Deep Purple / London Philharmonic crossover thing either. It's not a complete miscarriage, but something about it feels clunky in its execution. I feel that way in general about the rock band or metal band meeting the orchestra. It's a great idea on paper (I'm picturing Bill and Ted going "Metal? Orchestra? Excellent!!!") but there's some practical difficulties that make it hard to pull off. The main thing is: a rock band is LOUD. Orchestras are obviously loud too, but double decker stadium cab speakers are going to inevitably drown out the orchestra. Orchestral music needs the careful balance of timbres, colors, and timbres and orchestration for it to work, and all that is a moot point when a rock band is blaring over it. When I watched videos like Metallica's S&M (with the San Fransisco Symphony)and see harpists and double bassists and bassoonists in the orchestra, I'm just like, "Why are they even there? You can't hear them anyway, so what's the point?". You're obviously not going to hear the bass section because the bass guitar is blasting out of a gigantic amplifier, and you're sure as hell not going to hear a harp. To be honest, I don't have a ton of exposure to these experiments so I'm sure creative arrangers have found a way to work around these problems. I even actually like the sound of Metallica's S&M on some songs, or the Deep Purple. It doesn't sound horrendously awful, it even sounds really good. But I still think it's limited by this practical limitations.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Amadea said:


> Which works would you recommend?


I'm not so familiar with his orchestra music, but he has a double concerto for electric guitars and orchestra, played with metal guru Ronni le Tekrø.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> I'm not a big fan of the Deep Purple / London Philharmonic crossover thing either. It's not a complete miscarriage, but something about it feels clunky in its execution. I feel that way in general about the rock band or metal band meeting the orchestra. It's a great idea on paper (I'm picturing Bill and Ted going "Metal? Orchestra? Excellent!!!") but there's some practical difficulties that make it hard to pull off. The main thing is: a rock band is LOUD. Orchestras are obviously loud too, but double decker stadium cab speakers are going to inevitably drown out the orchestra. Orchestral music needs the careful balance of timbres, colors, and timbres and orchestration for it to work, and all that is a moot point when a rock band is blaring over it. When I watched videos like Metallica's S&M (with the San Fransisco Symphony)and see harpists and double bassists and bassoonists in the orchestra, I'm just like, "Why are they even there? You can't hear them anyway, so what's the point?". You're obviously not going to hear the bass section because the bass guitar is blasting out of a gigantic amplifier, and you're sure as hell not going to hear a harp. To be honest, I don't have a ton of exposure to these experiments so I'm sure creative arrangers have found a way to work around these problems. I even actually like the sound of Metallica's S&M on some songs, or the Deep Purple. It doesn't sound horrendously awful, it even sounds really good. But I still think it's limited by this practical limitations.


I think it's a matter of dynamics, especially with high gain and compression and music genres that are about being loud there guitar is basically playing at the same loud volume. While a orchestra, with classically trained musicians is all about dynamics and obviously they don't have compression. So it's something like instruments that are always at peak volume vs instruments that for all notes have much more control about dynamics. I think it's possible to make it blend better, for instance a guitarist could use a volume pedal but yes, thrash metal doesn't seem a genre that works very well adding strings, especially on something that was made without thinking about strings in the first place.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

Amadea said:


> Not many know, but before dying Jimi Hendrix had in mind two things:
> 
> - A collab with Miles Davis which never occured because Davis asked too much money.
> - To create _*A NEW TYPE OF CLASSICAL MUSIC!*_
> ...


There is loads of stuff that blends rock, classical, and jazz.

The most successful, in my opinion, though, is the stuff that mostly uses classical from the 2nd half of the 20th century, up through the present era, as its jumping off point.

The jazz label, ECM has quite a few releases that I'd call "chamber jazz".

Give Norwegian guitarist, Terje Rypdal's piece "Whenever I Seem to Be Far Away" a listen. Beautiful rock and jazz guitar playing, with an orchestra on one long track. Rypdal's father was a classical composer and conductor, and Rypdal studied classical piano before he switched to guitar.

Other ECM artists to listen to that play "chamber jazz", Oregon, Jan Garbarek, Michael Formanek…






Italian band, Banco del Mutuo Soccorso produced one of the best, if not the best, rock "band with orchestra" recordings ever. To me, it doesn't sound like a rock band being backed by an orchestra. The band and the orchestra sound like an integrated unit. And musically, it doesn't come off as cheesy pastiche, like so many that attempt this.






One of the genres that does classical meets rock the best, that I know of, is the avant-prog subgenre of prog rock. For starters, these bands almost always have several members that are classical conservatory grads, so their classical skills are top notch. But they are also very influenced by composers of the late 20th century. Musically speaking, these ensembles tend to produce music that is a bit 'thorny' sounding, so it is not exactly easy listening. One will hear, dissonance, atonality, and even some 12 tone used liberally. They also tend to improvise a fair amount, but it is not the same as jazz improv.

Bands that fit this genre are: Univers Zero (Belgium), Thinking Plague (USA), Art Zoyd (France), Aranis (Belgium), Henry Cow (UK), and many more. These bands also tend to use instruments not usually found in rock: oboe, bassoon, cello, violin, various other brass and woodwinds.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

^ ^ ^

Oregon is jazz?


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

EdwardBast said:


> ^ ^ ^
> 
> Oregon is jazz?


Since ECM came on the scene there has been a term "chamber jazz" that has been used to describe this kind of music: improvised originals instead of standard jazz forms, missing some of the trademark stylistic elements of jazz. Usually has a straight eight-note pulse as opposed to swing; less of a blues or bop influence; and a generally softer dynamic.


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## Amadea (Apr 15, 2021)

Since many pieces were posted, I remembered of this demo of Venus in Furs that really sounds like an ancient piece and I think it's incredible. It was the demo, there's John Cale singing instead of Lou Reed:


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Amadea said:


> Since many pieces were posted, I remembered of this demo of Venus in Furs that really sounds like an ancient piece and I think it's incredible. It was the demo, there's John Cale singing instead of Lou Reed:


I've never heard this version and I loved it. I'm not surprised that it sounds ancient, after all especially the albums of Nico sound like very ancient music. I'm surprised that he's him singing, mostly because I thought Lou Reed wrote the lyrics, so I wonder if I was wrong about that.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

SanAntone said:


> Since ECM came on the scene there has been a term "chamber jazz" that has been used to describe this kind of music: improvised originals instead of standard jazz forms, missing some of the trademark stylistic elements of jazz. Usually has a straight eight-note pulse as opposed to swing; less of a blues or bop influence; and a generally softer dynamic.


I know Oregon's music well. Towner's, Moore's, and McCandless's writing sounds to me like they were steeped about equally in Classical, jazz, and world music (Walcott, obviously the latter) and that at least two of them formally studied composition. Personally, I'd leave them unclassified and unlabelled.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Talking of Deep purple, this documentary on Arnold covers the gig at the Albert hall and the story behind the collaboration with some cracking insights into the relationship between Arnold, Deep Purple and the orchestra told by Jon Lord. it starts at 53 mins, but if you are an Arnold fan, this documentary on him will blow you away. It's a no holds barred story of his life.
If you are not interested, at least listen to Lord's insight at 1 hour...lol


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

EdwardBast said:


> I know Oregon's music well. Towner's, Moore's, and McCandless's writing sounds to me like they were steeped about equally in Classical, jazz, and world music (Walcott, obviously the latter) and that at least two of them formally studied composition. Personally, I'd leave them unclassified and unlabelled.


I agree. Many of ECM's artists fall into a similar bucket. Decades before ECM, John Lewis (pianist/composer) and Gunther Schuller along with a few jazz instrumentalists were interested in creating a fusion of jazz and classical they called Third Stream music.

There were a few projects, but it did not really go anywhere beyond the first few efforts.


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