# Musical Tastes and Social Class



## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

I just stumbled across this article from last week. It concludes that wealth and education predict little about one's musical omnivorism, but they do predict the types of music one likes.

To quote from the article:

"Poorer, less educated people tended to like country, disco, easy listening, golden oldies, heavy metal and rap.

Their wealthier and better-educated counterparts tended toward genres such as classical, blues, jazz, opera, choral, pop, reggae, rock, world and musical theatre.﻿"

Also, one is more likely to dislike music that is outside one's social class.


----------



## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

brotagonist said:


> I just stumbled across this article from last week. It concludes that wealth and education predict little about one's musical omnivorism, but they do predict the types of music one likes.
> 
> To quote from the article:
> 
> ...


I can't take that article seriously-it's hopelessly petty and antiquated. What's the difference between country, disco, reggae, rap and pop? They're all popular forms of music and they're what most people listen to, regardless of social class. Rich or poor, people have become lazy, superficial pleasure seekers who are driven to confusion and frustration by a piece of music that doesn't have a chorus and is longer than two minutes.


----------



## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

Maybe the idea is antiquated, but the article is from about a week ago. I share your sentiment about the state of contemporary music  Sid called music that takes time to be composed, heard and enjoyed "highbrow" in another post last night. Few people are interested in taking the time  except those of higher education, if the study is to be believed. So, where are they? :lol:


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

It appears that one needs a membership or institutional affiliation to gain access to the study on which this brief article is based. I was hoping to see a more detailed breakdown of the social class/musical taste correlations. In general, though, it isn't surprising to find such correlations. 

"Social class" is a concept that may include economic, educational, and cultural components. What's interesting to me is the types of music mentioned and how they cluster (which is why more detail would be useful). It doesn't seem odd that more complex and subtle kinds of music - music which rewards more deliberate attention - would appeal more to people whose occupations and educational attainments require more complex and subtle intellectual activity. But certainly there are many factors at work here, including simply the opportunity for better-educated, better-off individuals to be exposed to varied musical fare, and the likelihood that they will be more open to experiencing it. Lack of education and lack of money can narrow a person's sense of what is possible and acceptable, and it seems reasonable that this should apply to their cultural horizons as well as their practical circumstances.

But this may be an ivory-tower view, coming from a person whose working-class background couldn't keep him away from classical music. Of course that was sixty years ago, and this is a recent study. Music, and the world, have changed quite a bit. Too much, if you ask me. :lol:


----------



## Guest (Jun 17, 2015)

And people who post on classical music music threads tend to be....


----------



## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

brotagonist said:


> "Poorer, less educated people .....


Sounds like me though.  But I like classical.


----------



## Gaspard de la Nuit (Oct 20, 2014)

It would have been interesting to see more of a breakdown between who listens to what......

I've heard it said that people in the sciences or who are otherwise in an intellectually rigorous demographic tend to like classical music, which is often thought of as having 'intellectual' qualities,

Which is funny because the majority of composers that are listened to never showed a drop of interest in the sciences their entire lives, and usually would not have had an education that exceeded what is taught in Middle School these days in most subjects, though it seems like there are a disproportionate amount of law-school drop-outs.

Also, most of the classical music that is listened to (Beethoven, Bach, Mozart, Tchaickovsky, etc), tends to offer a pleasure that is fairly accessible and doesn't require too much intellectual effort on the part of a Western listener, even though people who want to can find greater levels of subtlety to be enamored by.


----------



## Guest (Jun 17, 2015)

The struggle of class against class is a what struggle--a _what_ struggle?


----------



## Guest (Jun 17, 2015)

some guy said:


> And people who post on classical music music threads tend to be....


Gorgeous and drole.


----------



## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

This very concept is 19th century. I like metal _and_ classical, progressive rock _and_ a well honed simple pop tune, Bach _and_ Boulez, Tony Iommi and Men Without Hats, Miles Davis and Fairport Convention. What social class is that?


----------



## Guest (Jun 17, 2015)

Weston said:


> This very concept is 19th century. I like metal _and_ classical, progressive rock _and_ a well honed simple pop tune, Bach _and_ Boulez, Tony Iommi and Men Without Hats, Miles Davis and Fairport Convention. What social class is that?


The same one as myself and probably a lot of other people!


----------



## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

I'm broke as hell but I listen to classical and jazz music mostly.

What does that make me... an impoverished hipster?


----------



## Guest (Jun 17, 2015)

Albert7 said:


> I'm broke as hell but I listen to classical and jazz music mostly.
> 
> What does that make me... an impoverished hipster?


No, you've just got ideas above your station!


----------



## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Weston said:


> This very concept is 19th century. I like metal _and_ classical, progressive rock _and_ a well honed simple pop tune, Bach _and_ Boulez, Tony Iommi and Men Without Hats, Miles Davis and Fairport Convention. What social class is that?


From the OP: "wealth and education predict little about one's musical omnivorism".


----------



## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Weston said:


> This very concept is 19th century. I like metal _and_ classical, progressive rock _and_ a well honed simple pop tune, Bach _and_ Boulez, Tony Iommi and Men Without Hats, Miles Davis and Fairport Convention. What social class is that?


I could be considered the working class man. For example I like to swig my Guinness stout to the sounds of Beethoven.


----------



## Lucifer Saudade (May 19, 2015)

Back when I was a smart, well educated guy for my age, I liked Metal. Lots of Metal. 

Now that I'm much dumber, I listen to Classical, Jazz, Pop and EDM. 

Also, I like at least a little from virtually all sub-genres - it's a matter of being patient and exposing yourself to what's out there. You'll find the music that's right for you.

Funny how metal gets disparaged as music for lower class neanderthal idiots while the more simplistic popular Rock is up there in the pantheon of superior genres. 

Also, As a consumer of all styles, I don't see what in Bach's name is the relevancy of this article. Do you have any idea how easy it is to pick up a Rakim CD or even a 50 Cent album and just listen to it for a couple of days till it sinks in. Some Lorenna Mckennit - what, are you scared of Celtic/ Arabic music? Or is Gamelan, Japanese or Indian the problem? 

Are you little ears getting tortured by trance music, or raped by ****** pop music or further damaged by stoned lazy raggae? Are your classical sensibilities offended by the bemired Club music or the simplistic blues?

Good! Cuz now we have the cure - ????

More cowbellz pls. 


P.S This is a waste of time. Dispose of this horse manure of an article.


----------



## Lucifer Saudade (May 19, 2015)

Am I to understand that people who listen to this






Or this






Are subhuman compared to people who listen to this


----------



## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

The war on information continues.


----------



## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Nereffid said:


> The war on information continues.


I what sense? If your point is that people in this thread are being unfair to this research, you are correct.


----------



## clara s (Jan 6, 2014)

Lucifer Saudade said:


> Back when I was a smart, well educated guy for my age, I liked Metal. Lots of Metal.
> 
> Now that I'm much dumber, I listen to Classical, Jazz, Pop and EDM.
> 
> ...


back then, you were repressed and you needed Metal to befool the slavery.

now you are free, and you can have plenty of choices

cure has occured... hahaha


----------



## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Seriously, Lucifer, where do you get "subhuman" from?


----------



## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Lucifer Saudade said:


> Am I to understand that people who listen to this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Geez, those are all terrible.


----------



## Lucifer Saudade (May 19, 2015)

GreenMamba said:


> Seriously, Lucifer, where do you get "subhuman" from?


Do you really want to know?_ really_?


----------



## Guest (Jun 17, 2015)

Lucifer Saudade said:


> Am I to understand that people who listen to this
> 
> Or this
> 
> Are subhuman compared to people who listen to this


Well, what I would like you to understand from what I have said is that you cannot draw any reasonable conclusions about "people," only about Mark or Cheryl or Maria or Jim. And so forth.

And even then....


----------



## Lucifer Saudade (May 19, 2015)

Morimur said:


> Geez, those are all terrible.


You're entitled to your opinion.


----------



## Lucifer Saudade (May 19, 2015)

Clearly if you were raised in the hood, Schnittke was most likely not on your mind. And yes, a lot of us who listen to classical have a couple of cells up there and know how to use them to some degree, let's face it. 

This really is very very old stuff, akin to discussing the woes of evolution, the choice of homosexuality and the repression of women's rights. Different people have different music tastes depending on what they were raised on, how open-minded they are, how musical (or amusical) how much exposure they received, musical development etc. 

Combine these factors and you get personal preference. 

So morimur doesn't like "Call me maybe"? The 12 year old next door could NOT care less I assure you, and vice versa. 

I'm sure that a dolled up South Cali partying girl is of a far lower socio-economic order then any of us on the forum, clearly she should stick to that garbage pop music - Classical is reserved for us higher ups - meanwhile the lower classes can enjoy their Calvin Harris and the further demented should stick to Rap. 

Well - the world is more complex then that - and the obvious points (like my first one) should not even be mentioned or discussed. That leaves you with - exactly nothing.


----------



## papsrus (Oct 7, 2014)

From the article:



> ... Not surprisingly, the widest divides were between those who liked hip-hop and choral, hip-hop and folk, heavy metal and choral, heavy metal and easy listening, and heavy metal and golden oldies.


Those heavy metal and hip hop folks are clearly elitist snobs.


----------



## Lucifer Saudade (May 19, 2015)

papsrus said:


> From the article:
> 
> Those heavy metal and hip hop folks are clearly elitist snobs.


I admittedly have a hard time with the easy listening. However, I don't regret it in the least.

Nor do I disparage it - every music has it's uses and something to listen to while whiping your *** can be a welcome change of pace. For me any way


----------



## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

GreenMamba said:


> I what sense? If your point is that people in this thread are being unfair to this research, you are correct.


I mean the usual low-level outrage over researchers wondering about something and then obtaining data to answer their question. The findings are just correlations, they're not rules or commandments, they don't reveal some universal truth about every single one of us, they're not pushing an agenda, they're not trying to change the world. They're just information. And as always seems to happen when someone brings up scientific research on TC, there's some resistance to the mere existence of that information.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Nobody likes statistics (except maybe statisticians) and they probably do lie a little, but they are what they are. We can ignore them, we can try to figure out what they mean, we can argue about them - but there they are. What we have here so far is very generalized; a host of variables is unknown. But generalizations are not meaningless and not (always) useless. A generalization will tell us nothing certain about our next door neighbor - but it may save us from being shocked and dismayed when the music blasting out of his car radio confirms the generalization.

I used to sell a lot of CDs online (back when you could actually get enough for them to make that worth your time). I bought used CDs at garage sales, thrift stores, etc. I lived in a small town with an unusually high percentage of highly educated professional and artistic people, many of them wealthy and retired, a university, numerous art galleries, and an active theater community. I went around to the sales and thrift shops and picked up a lot of classical music, jazz, world, and "new age" CDs. Of course there was plenty of rock and various popular genres, as one would expect with a large student population, but I found very little country & western, although I live in a western state where I would expect it to be common fare. I also rarely heard country music in public places, but the supermarket where I shopped often piped in classical music, and many other stores played gentle "new age" or "ambient" stuff. I hardly need tell some people reading this that this is not the musical picture one finds in most small towns in America; I have lived in places in this country where the music heard in public places made me want to finish my shopping and get back home as quickly as possible. And indeed, when I moved to another small town only forty miles away, the change in the musical scene was exactly what the very different demographic would lead one to expect. (I've succeeded in moving back. Now I can enjoy going out again. )

Dismiss this stuff if you like, but I'd rather try to understand what it says about human nature and culture. Maybe what it says, in the generalized form in which we've been given it so far, is fairly obvious. But if you don't begin an inquiry with the obvious, you aren't likely to learn anything less obvious.


----------



## Lucifer Saudade (May 19, 2015)

Nereffid said:


> I mean the usual low-level outrage over researchers wondering about something and then obtaining data to answer their question. The findings are just correlations, they're not rules or commandments, they don't reveal some universal truth about every single one of us, they're not pushing an agenda, they're not trying to change the world. They're just information. And as always seems to happen when someone brings up scientific research on TC, there's some resistance to the mere existence of that information.


I understand your point, it's a fair point.

Do you feel you have gained something substantial from such ambiguous research tho? It's also important that people (out of their own folly) do not interpret as the holy gospel but merely a statistical scrap of information pertaining a particular group of individuals in a particular region undergoing the same study/ experiment.

The WORST thing about it though, is that it treats genres on a very surface level (what is Rap - Lil Wayne? More stupid people like Lil Wayne then smart people - WOW) - metal alone can range from some teenage metalcore band devoid of all talent to something a bit better (even if not by much by classical standards)






For music fans who're into deeper things, it's a churlish treatment, that is all.


----------



## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Lucifer, I'd be curious as to what your reaction would have been if you had not seen other comments in this thread first (specifically, Morimur's). Are you responding to him more than the research, which doesn't seem to cast aspersions?


----------



## Lucifer Saudade (May 19, 2015)

GreenMamba said:


> Lucifer, I'd be curious as to what your reaction would have been if you had not seen other comments in this thread first (specifically, Morimur's). Are you responding to him more than the research, which doesn't seem to cast aspersions?


BTW I would like to stress that I was not in any way trying to "attack" the OP or the researches though it may have come across that way. It's just that people (collective and by this time tiresome experiences I have from other forums) seem to assign all these values to musical genres - which I feel are largely immaterial.

What are you going to judge me on, for example, as an eclectic listener?

Am I higher class the days I like Classical and lower (economic) class the days I like rap? My bank account doesn't change that much if that's what they're getting at. Why does the "Great Devide" even exist like some preordained natural order of things?

You like Club music: when you're dancing. Simple, right?

You like silly pop tunes: to have fun with your friends, and sing and dance to gibberish.

You never liked a good pop tune/ country song etc? Not one you can relate to? OK. I was raised on a fair bit of Rock and Pop - I'm still fond of stuff like Led Zeppelin sometimes. Why not?

As for Morimur - I find his dismissal (if stated as fact intentionally) to be strange (if not, it's all good). If a classically trained musician likes Xenaxis while his niece prefects Katy Perry - and KP works for her - what's so terrible about it? Music is music. Enjoy your stuff, let others enjoy their stuff.

If you're at all social with non-classical fans, you'll find just how little ****s they give about your superior musicality. Outside this small ecosphere where respect is begotten for the specialized and the adventurous - the rest of the world doesn't value listening to Xenaxis above being good at football or singing Karaoke. Just because some people don't want to go deep or have no interest - who cares?

For me - it's all good. Everyone likes their stuff - like I said, Kenny G in the elevator? Fine by me. My life had larger troubles.


----------



## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Lucifer Saudade said:


> I understand your point, it's a fair point.
> 
> Do you feel you have gained something substantial from such ambiguous research tho? It's also important that people (out of their own folly) do not interpret as the holy gospel but merely a statistical scrap of information pertaining a particular group of individuals in a particular region undergoing the same study/ experiment.


Substantial? No. But the finding that being a musical omnivore isn't correlated with educational level is an interesting one. The findings of which music seems to be perceived as high-brow and which as low is interesting.
Being interested is a gain, AFAIC.

I agree, "holy gospel" it ain't; or Satanic verses, either.



> What are you going to judge me on, for example, as an eclectic listener?
> 
> Am I higher class the days I like Classical and lower (economic) class the days I like rap? My bank account doesn't change that much if that's what they're getting at. Why does the "Great Devide" even exist like some preordained natural order of things?


Now, I think _that's_ over-interpreting the study. They found a statistical correlation (apparently). This doesn't mean "because you like X, you are a certain type of person".


----------



## papsrus (Oct 7, 2014)

It would have been interesting if the study had also examined political leanings.

I would guess (and it's only an _un-educated_ guess)  that if the researchers had asked a relatively benign question such as: "Do you identify as liberal or conservative?" then country music listeners and classical music listeners would find themselves snuggling up to one another by that measure, while jazz and hip hop listeners would similarly be sitting cozily together somewhere near the other end of the spectrum.

And ... metal listeners might find themselves pulling up a chair nearby the country and classical listeners. (Is Ted Nugent metal?)

But all that's just a wild, insane speculation. I could be _waaaay_ off. And I'm hopefully not coming across as making a value judgment about any of it.


----------



## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

I just feel really happy that folk music (and Irish Traditional Music) aren't mentioned in the list.
Does that mean I can relax on my déclassé little island? 

It's funny, because folk music is 'of the people', but the various 20th century Folk Revivals in Britain were very much linked with students and teachers. I was taught 17th century ballads and ring dances at Infant School as a result of one of these revivals.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Ingélou said:


> I just feel really happy that folk music (and Irish Traditional Music) aren't mentioned in the list.
> Does that mean I can relax on my déclassé little island?


Declasse - or in a class by yourself.


----------



## Guest (Jun 17, 2015)

Ingélou said:


> It's funny, because folk music is 'of the people', but the various 20th century Folk Revivals in Britain were very much linked with students and teachers.


Did you just suggest that students and teachers are not people?


----------



## clara s (Jan 6, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Nobody likes statistics (except maybe statisticians) and they probably do lie a little, but they are what they are. We can ignore them, we can try to figure out what they mean, we can argue about them - but there they are. What we have here so far is very generalized; a host of variables is unknown. But generalizations are not meaningless and not (always) useless. A generalization will tell us nothing certain about our next door neighbor - but it may save us from being shocked and dismayed when the music blasting out of his car radio confirms the generalization.
> 
> I used to sell a lot of CDs online (back when you could actually get enough for them to make that worth your time). I bought used CDs at garage sales, thrift stores, etc. I lived in a small town with an unusually high percentage of highly educated professional and artistic people, many of them wealthy and retired, a university, numerous art galleries, and an active theater community. I went around to the sales and thrift shops and picked up a lot of classical music, jazz, world, and "new age" CDs. Of course there was plenty of rock and various popular genres, as one would expect with a large student population, but I found very little country & western, although I live in a western state where I would expect it to be common fare. I also rarely heard country music in public places, but the supermarket where I shopped often piped in classical music, and many other stores played gentle "new age" or "ambient" stuff. I hardly need tell some people reading this that this is not the musical picture one finds in most small towns in America; I have lived in places in this country where the music heard in public places made me want to finish my shopping and get back home as quickly as possible. And indeed, when I moved to another small town only forty miles away, the change in the musical scene was exactly what the very different demographic would lead one to expect. (I've succeeded in moving back. Now I can enjoy going out again. )
> 
> Dismiss this stuff if you like, but I'd rather try to understand what it says about human nature and culture. Maybe what it says, in the generalized form in which we've been given it so far, is fairly obvious. But if you don't begin an inquiry with the obvious, you aren't likely to learn anything less obvious.


I totally agree here with you Woodduck

never underestimate even the simplest, most obvious and apparently foolish research, especially 
when it relates to culture and society.

Most of the times we will gain some precious information, even a small stone added to our knowledge
about human nature.

ps you will be the first to receive exclusive photographs from the new Maria Callas museum,
during its opening night.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

clara s said:


> I totally agree here with you Woodduck
> 
> never underestimate even the simplest, most obvious and apparently foolish research, especially
> when it relates to culture and society.
> ...


Thanks. I look forward to them. (Is that a joke? )


----------



## Guest (Jun 17, 2015)

papsrus said:


> It would have been interesting if the study had also examined political leanings.
> 
> I would guess (and it's only an _un-educated_ guess)  that if the researchers had asked a relatively benign question such as: "Do you identify as liberal or conservative?" then country music listeners and classical music listeners would find themselves snuggling up to one another by that measure, while jazz and hip hop listeners would similarly be sitting cozily together somewhere near the other end of the spectrum.
> 
> ...


Extensive, peer-reviewed research has confirmed that Ted Nugent is just a ******* ****.


----------



## clara s (Jan 6, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Thanks. I look forward to them. (Is that a joke? )


it's not a joke

the only thing is that although it was due to open this year in Athens, 
it seems that there will be a small delay

by the way do you know this site?
http://www.mariacallasmuseum.org/

it has some good material


----------



## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Most people may like some form of music but on the individual level there is probably an extremely varying degree of interest in music... Without a strong personal interest in and fascination with music and sound and without the intrinsic motivation to explore new kinds of music, it's to be expected that a person will never really listen to anything beyond what is popular in his or her social and cultural environment. You can't blame people for not taking a special interest in music. I don't give a damn about football or cars, while half of the population does.


----------



## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

DeepR said:


> I don't give a damn about football or cars, while half of the population does.


We should have a thread for people like us who don't care about either of those.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

dogen said:


> Extensive, peer-reviewed research has confirmed that Ted Nugent is just a ******* ****.


A guy at my work wanted me to go with him and his friends to a Ted Nugent concert at the House of Blues in Hollywood. He bugged and bugged. He's tons of fun so I decided to go.

I have to say in all honesty that the concert was such exquisite testosteroney camp, that I completely loved it. Plus, just to hear all of Ted's political agit-propping interpolations between the songs just had me collapsing with giggles- so much in fact that my head hurt. The guy missed his calling as a stand up comic. . . Well, he wasn't 'trying' to be funny- but he was.

Oh!- then Scott Ian from Anthrax came on for some songs and just burned the place _down_.


----------



## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

For those interested, here is the article. Most of it anyway since figures are missing.

The CBC Music summary reads as though the study is about social class and music, but that is wrong. There is a lot of information related to musical tastes in the study, but music is just a marker for understanding the relationship between social class and tastes in general. The study is focused on two theories - homology (i.e. "class positions ... are accompanied by specified cultural tastes and specialized modes of appreciating them") and cultural omnivorism (i.e. "elites are increasingly characterized by a breadth of cultural tastes of any and all kinds"). The study concludes that there is little evidence for cultural omnivorism, but strong evidence for a "weak" form of homology.

So the study is really not about music, _but_ there are some very interesting data relevant to music. Perhaps the most interesting is that the study participants were asked, "For each of the following types of music, please tell me whether you like or dislike or perhaps feel neutrally about each type" and "Which one of these do you dislike the most?" Of all the types, classical was most liked (74%) and least disliked (8%).

The data show some fairly interesting associations between pairs of liked and liked/disliked types. The most liked pair was classical/rock and the most liked/disliked pair was classical-heavy metal.

Note: the study involved phone interviews where there was a low cooperation rate so the results could be biased.


----------



## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

I can definitely tell you from my personal experience that the rich kids I know don't listen to classical. Most of them couldn't tell the difference between Mahler and Schumann sadly enough.


----------



## Guest (Jun 17, 2015)

Correlations may still have outliers. The study does not deny that.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

brotagonist said:


> I just stumbled across this article from last week. It concludes that wealth and education predict little about one's musical omnivorism, but they do predict the types of music one likes.
> 
> To quote from the article:
> 
> ...


There was an article in the newspaper here years ago which reflected the same conclusions. A demographic study was done to look at what music people listen to in relation to socio-economic factors, age and education. I do remember that it said that classical listeners where most likely to be educated and in middle age category. Unfortunately I didn't retain a clipping of that article, and I haven't been able to find it by searching online.

People who listen to classical music aren't necessarily going to have more money, be more educated or older. The reverse is also true, those that listen to other types of music aren't always going to be poorer, less educated or younger.Statistics are good at giving the bigger picture, a broader snapshot. There will always be some divergence from these sorts of studies.

Classical music started in the churches and courts, then once public concerts came in during the late 18th century it was accessed by more people. Still broader access was allowed once recordings and radio came in duing the 20th century. That being said there is an inherent elitist or snobbish sort of aura that accompanies classical music. Even within classical listeners there are numerous divides. Humans will use anything to prove they are superior to others, not only music.

I think that in Western societies today, there are other markers of social status that have more prestige than classical music. What job you do, where you live, where you went to school, what kind of car you own, where you go on holiday, what restaraunts you eat at, and so on. I see music as not amongst the top markers, its more like an add-on. Garnish or the icing on the cake, if you like.


----------



## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Most people that I know who love Classical Music tend to be well educated but not very well off. The wealthier a person is ,in my experience, the less musical discernment they possess.


----------



## Gaspard de la Nuit (Oct 20, 2014)

Triplets said:


> Most people that I know who love Classical Music tend to be well educated but not very well off. The wealthier a person is ,in my experience, the less musical discernment they possess.


Reminds me of that JSBach quote, "My masters are strange folk with very little care for music in them".


----------



## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

By the way, all those well-off kids who appear at classical music concerts tend to be those who are there to look good. Most of them couldn't discern Mozart from Haydn if you did a blind listening test.


----------



## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

mmsbls said:


> For those interested, here is the article. Most of it anyway since figures are missing.
> 
> The CBC Music summary reads as though the study is about social class and music, but that is wrong. There is a lot of information related to musical tastes in the study, but music is just a marker for understanding the relationship between social class and tastes in general. The study is focused on two theories - homology (i.e. "class positions ... are accompanied by specified cultural tastes and specialized modes of appreciating them") and cultural omnivorism (i.e. "elites are increasingly characterized by a breadth of cultural tastes of any and all kinds"). The study concludes that there is little evidence for cultural omnivorism, but strong evidence for a "weak" form of homology.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this. I wondered if Bourdieu would be involved somehow, and there he was in the second paragraph!


----------



## Guest (Jun 18, 2015)

Prejudice is good fun, isn't it?


----------



## Lucifer Saudade (May 19, 2015)

Triplets said:


> Most people that I know who love Classical Music tend to be well educated but not very well off. The wealthier a person is ,in my experience, the less musical discernment they possess.


A lot of self made millionares I've heard speaking and knew personally, were way too busy to decipher Webern's concertos. Some of them grew on Rap, and still listen to Rap to a degree, otherwise not really bothering with music.

Only the rich middle-aged people can comfortably waste time listening to Classical, young duded are busy working/ partying (pop/ rap). It is usually the educated and the musical that like Classical and who were not raised in total poverty. Concert attendees may be fairly well to do. One doesn't need to be Sherlock Holmes to conclude that one.

Country - ignorant right wing smelly hilly billies. 
Rap - hood kids and partying monkeys.
Metal - lower class neanderthal pub drinkers.

Not hard. I doubt those of use who like some of those are any of these things tho - it gets harder from here.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Triplets said:


> Most people that I know who love Classical Music tend to be well educated but not very well off. The wealthier a person is ,in my experience, the less musical discernment they possess.





Lucifer Saudade said:


> A lot of self made millionares I've heard speaking and knew personally, were way too busy to decipher Webern's concertos....
> ....It is usually the educated and the musical that like Classical and who were not raised in total poverty. Concert attendees may be fairly well to do. One doesn't need to be Sherlock Holmes to conclude that one...


There's also the issue of old money versus new money (the "self made millionaires"). Old money have had music and culture in the family for generations, its in their blood so to speak. New money are different, they might be able to pay for the highest priced tickets at the opera or when the Berlin Phil jets into town, but they wouldn't have what you're calling musical discernment. They basically lack pedigree.

Ultimately though I think that for whatever reason a person buys a recording or goes to a concert, it doesn't matter other than they are supporting the music being made. In terms of supporting music with donations to foundations and orchestras or commissioning composers to write music, wherever that kind of big money comes from again matters little. There are different motivations but the outcome is to get music performed.

I am aware of the keeping up with the Joneses type of attitude but in the end I can enjoy music in my own way. I don't have to be part of the classical equivalent of the smart set or in crowd. Its natural though for like to attract like, and music is one of those things that can get people of similar situation and mindset together. It goes back way into our past at the time of the earliest humans, and to the development of tribes.


----------



## Guest (Jun 18, 2015)

Albert7 said:


> I can definitely tell you from my personal experience that the rich kids I know don't listen to classical. Most of them couldn't tell the difference between Mahler and Schumann sadly enough.


I can definitely tell you from my personal experience that each rich kid I know is different from each other rich kid. That's how I can tell them apart. That's why I cannot make generalizations about them.

As for not being able to tell the difference between Mahler and Schumann being sad, well it might be sad if someone who listens to classical music were unable, but the people Albert mentions do not listen to classical music at all.

And yet in this group of non-listeners, there are some people who regardless are able to tell the difference between Mahler and Schumann. Well, that's not sad at all! That's rather cool. Evidence of musical acuity outside one's own experience.


----------



## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Another matter for that article to consider: composers themselves throughout history came from different social and economic backgrounds too, so what does that have to say about the quality of the music they wrote? Nothing at all? Good.


----------



## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

ArtMusic said:


> Another matter for that article to consider: composers themselves throughout history came from different social and economic backgrounds too, so what does that have to say about the quality of the music they wrote? Nothing at all? Good.


The study examined the opinions of living Canadians, so no, I don't think the authors expected to reveal anything about the quality of the music of composers throughout history.


----------



## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

and *folkies *= hairy sandalled beaded third-agers? :devil:
(But we're a lovely lot really - tho sadly less hairy these days!)


----------



## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

some guy said:


> I can definitely tell you from my personal experience that each rich kid I know is different from each other rich kid. That's how I can tell them apart. That's why I cannot make generalizations about them.


You can of course make generalizations about classes. In fact you can't understand society at all without doing so.

The Bourdieu book mentioned above is probably the definitive statement on taste and class.


----------



## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

How much is class part of the British social system?


----------



## Proms Fanatic (Nov 23, 2014)

Albert7 said:


> How much is class part of the British social system?


The gap between rich and poor is widening.

This is an interesting article about the people who have been in the Government in the last 50 years or so: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-12282505


----------



## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Albert7 said:


> How much is class part of the British social system?


Built in with the brickwork...


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Proms Fanatic said:


> The gap between rich and poor is widening.
> 
> This is an interesting article about the people who have been in the Government in the last 50 years or so: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-12282505


Are the barriers created by 'government' or by 'civil society?'- 'that' is the question.


----------



## Guest (Jun 18, 2015)

Proms Fanatic said:


> The gap between rich and poor is widening.
> 
> This is an interesting article about the people who have been in the Government in the last 50 years or so: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-12282505


The UK is following the US, and probably much of the globe, given that neocon fundamentalism has the prevailing grip on much of the world economy.


----------



## Guest (Jun 18, 2015)

Has anyone noticed the curious sociological phenomenon whereby the great unwashed blue-collar sports fan class seems to be very fond of Bruckner?
Here is a common chant among this class: 



Which should be compared with this: 




What conclusions may we draw?


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

TalkingHead said:


> Has anyone noticed the curious sociological phenomenon whereby the great unwashed blue-collar sports fan class seem to be very fond of Bruckner.
> Here is a common chant among this class:
> 
> 
> ...


Well, I'd question that statistical sample- I think the correlation is more stochastic, myself.

When I was a teenager and worked at Tower Records there was this transient-looking absolute gentleman who would come into the classical room who knew his opera forwards-backwards-and-sideways- and funnily enough- he was also a sort of Korngold scholar as well.

Appearances can be deceiving with the lower orders- muscle-bound Brucknerians 'or' svelte Korngoldians.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Well, I'd question that statistical sample- I think the correlation is more stochastic, myself.
> 
> When I was a teenager and worked at Tower Records there was this transient-looking absolute gentleman who would come into the classical room who knew his opera forwards-backwards-and-sideways- and funnily enough- he was also a sort of Korngold scholar as well.
> 
> Appearances can be deceiving with the lower orders- muscle-bound Brucknerians 'or' svelte Korngoldians.


So that was you behind the counter?


----------



## Polyphemus (Nov 2, 2011)

TalkingHead said:


> Has anyone noticed the curious sociological phenomenon whereby the great unwashed blue-collar sports fan class seem to be very fond of Bruckner.
> Here is a common chant among this class:
> 
> 
> ...


Unwashed ? Blue Collar ? 
Are you perhaps one of those Elitist twits who presume that because you have an affinity with classical music you are one of natures superior beings. You are not alone on this site has more than its fair share of 'superior beings'.

BTW the team I support Leinster RFC have as part of their jerseys blue collars. As our record shows Leinster RFC are indeed a superior team which blows your anti blue collar out of the water, like most generalisations.









Conclusions:- To parphrase Robert Bolt 'One must construe according to ones wit'

:lol: :lol: :tiphat: :tiphat:


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> So that was you behind the counter?


'You' were the guy I gave all of the last-month's issues of _Gramophone _and _Fanfare_ to when I worked there?! _;D_


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Polyphemus said:


> Unwashed ? Blue Collar ?
> Are you perhaps one of those Elitist twits who presume that because you have an affinity with classical music you are one of natures superior beings. You are not alone on this site has more than its fair share of 'superior beings'.
> 
> BTW the team I support Leinster RFC have as part of their jerseys blue collars. As our record shows Leinster RFC are indeed a superior team which blows your anti blue collar out of the water, like most generalisations.
> ...


No, money and class don't necessarily make one a 'superior being'- only a _sprezzatura_ in all of the qualities of character that truly matter: intelligence, taste, and judgment.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> 'You' were the guy I gave all of the last-month's issues of _Gramophone _and _Fanfare_ to when I worked there?! _;D_


I don't know. These old Fanfares came from somewhere. But maybe I'm thinking of a different city. I've been a transient-looking absolute gentleman for so long the memories have all run together.


----------



## Guest (Jun 18, 2015)

Polyphemus said:


> Unwashed ? Blue Collar ?
> Are you perhaps one of those Elitist twits who presume that because you have an affinity with classical music you are one of natures superior beings. You are not alone on this site has more than its fair share of 'superior beings'. [...]


No, Polyphemus, you have missed the 'tongue-in-cheek' tone I hoped was clear in my post! I was trying to poke fun at the futility of attempting to make concrete correlations between musical tastes and social class. Now if you will excuse me, I want to plonk myself on the sofa in front of my giant flat-screen TV, chomp on a takeaway pizza, glug a six-pack of fine Czech _pils_ and watch the sports channel. After that, I might go and play through a couple preludes and fugues of Bach's WTC so long as it's not too late to disturb the neighbours.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I don't know. These old Fanfares came from somewhere. But maybe I'm thinking of a different city. I've been a transient-looking absolute gentleman for so long the memories have all run together.


We must have met at Tower somewhere along the line. I swear, working there- if I may call it such- as a classical music buyer was the most fun job I've ever had in my life.

You'd be a customer that would get me into trouble with the manager for abusing my privileges and giving the cd's to you at cost- only to people I liked though. _;D_


----------



## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

I learned that a lot of scrap cash by in order to attend the Utah Symphony and Opera. Around here the rich people tend to attend the Jazz basketball games instead.


----------



## Guest (Jun 18, 2015)

Well, I say let them all eat cake and listen to Méhul.


----------



## Polyphemus (Nov 2, 2011)

TalkingHead said:


> No, Polyphemus, you have missed the 'tongue-in-cheek' tone I hoped was clear in my post! I was trying to poke fun at the futility of attempting to make concrete correlations between musical tastes and social class. Now if you will excuse me, I want to plonk myself on the sofa in front of my giant flat-screen TV, chomp on a takeaway pizza, glug a six-pack of fine Czech _pils_ and watch the sports channel. After that, I might go and play through a couple preludes and fugues of Bach's WTC so long as it's not too late to disturb the neighbours.


It appears that you have also missed the tone of my retort, which was intended to be equally tongue in cheek.

Enjoy the Pizza and beer.

:tiphat:


----------



## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

Polyphemus said:


> It appears that you have also missed the tone of my retort, which was intended to be equally tongue in cheek.
> 
> Enjoy the Pizza and beer.
> 
> :tiphat:


Huh? Wasn't TalkingHead quite obviously just pretending to miss the tongue-in-cheek tone of your post? I wouldn't take the TH's post you're quoting at face value.


----------



## Guest (Jun 18, 2015)

Polyphemus said:


> It appears that you have also missed the tone of my retort, which was intended to be equally tongue in cheek.
> Enjoy the Pizza and beer.
> 
> :tiphat:


Hah! You're too sharp for me !!


----------



## Polyphemus (Nov 2, 2011)

Dim7 said:


> Huh? Wasn't TalkingHead quite obviously just pretending to miss the tongue-in-cheek tone of your post? I wouldn't take the TH's post you're quoting at face value.


Isn't that the point of irony.


----------



## Guest (Jun 18, 2015)

Dim7 said:


> Huh? Wasn't TalkingHead quite obviously just pretending to miss the tongue-in-cheek tone of your post? I wouldn't take the TH's post you're quoting at face value.


And you, Sir, are far too diminished for me !! Hah !


----------



## Polyphemus (Nov 2, 2011)

TalkingHead said:


> Hah! You're too sharp for me !!


I wish.................
Sorry for the dots its the 15 letter thing.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Marschallin Blair said:


> We must have met at Tower somewhere along the line. I swear, working there- if I may call it such- as a classical music buyer was the most fun job I've ever had in my life.
> 
> You'd be a customer that would get me into trouble with the manager for abusing my privileges and giving the cd's to you at cost- only to people I liked though. _;D_


Which Tower????


----------



## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Becca said:


> Which Tower????


Either Tower Records or the Tower of London.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Nereffid said:


> Thanks for this. I wondered if Bourdieu would be involved somehow, and there he was in the second paragraph!


Bourdieu's concept of cultural capital is an important aspect to consider in this debate. Private schools tend to have excellent music programs, whilst government funded schools lag way behind in that area. Its obvious that if you grow up in that sort of cultural milieu - and your parents have the money for musical instruments, lessons, regularly go to concerts and so on - then you've got a head start with classical music.

Again I must stress that this doesn't necessarily mean that a person will come to like classical music, or pursue it as a career. They could do what many teenagers do, rebel and forget about it for the rest of their lives. If its forced onto them, they can also just come to hate it.



ArtMusic said:


> *Another matter for that article to consider: composers themselves throughout history came from different social and economic backgrounds too*, so what does that have to say about the quality of the music they wrote? Nothing at all? Good.


Most of them came from what we'd call middle class, many had musicians as either parents or as relatives. Some where from lower middle class families, for example Dvorak's father was an inn keeper and Elgar's had a music shop. There are some I can think of who came from poor families, but not many - Haydn, Brahms and Mahler immediately come to mind. Mendelssohn was one of the few who was born with the proverbial silver spoon in his mouth, his family was very rich.

Class was an issue in the past, I know of a derisive comment by some snob towards Brahms, because he liked to wear colarless shirts. When Brahms won an award given to him by the kaiser, this critic joked that he could wear it on his shirt and that, together with his beard, could hide the fact that he had no collar. With the emergence of bourgeoise composers like Brahms, working at courts for aristocrats began to be a thing of the past. Instead, composers where able to become more independent, and earn their money from publishers and orchestras commissioning their music, and not everybody was happy with this change.

Speaking to that, have you ever read what Sir Thomas Beecham said? A lot of it admittedly tongue in cheek, but boy did he like to dig in to the plebs (and the aristocrats alike). We are all ignorant in one way or another - whether blissfully so, or because we want to know but can't hope to get to the lofty heights of these musician-Gods. But seriously, classical music always had some sort of pecking order, and to an extent always will.


----------

