# Glenn Gould's Turkish March



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I absolutely love this version, the steadiness and precision all work together to make it a memorable performance.


----------



## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Well, Gould takes all the excitement out of the piece. Personally, I feel he took a wrong turn.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Bulldog said:


> Well, Gould takes all the excitement out of the piece. Personally, I feel he took a wrong turn.


Compared to how it's typically played, I can hear what you mean. However, his version makes me think of royalty and and a man/woman of confidence.


----------



## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

It sounds less of a march and more of a tip-toe.

My favorite part is his sing-along


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

chu42 said:


> It sounds less of a march and more of a tip-toe.
> 
> My favorite part is his sing-along


He's certainly famous for his sing-a-longs! :lol:


----------



## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Captainnumber36 said:


>


too slow a tempo.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Zhdanov said:


> too slow a tempo.


That's one thing I love about it.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Looks like I'm in the minority so far with liking this one, oh well.


----------



## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Looks like I'm in the minority so far with liking this one, oh well.


Gould was a controversial figure of sorts, both musically and as a guy. I've seen a lot of people here express distaste for his recordings.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> Gould was a controversial figure of sorts, both musically and as a guy. I've seen a lot of people here express distaste for his recordings.


Yes, certainly he was controversial. I'm just surprised more folks can't appreciate his talents.


----------



## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

"Glenn Gould sings (put in composer here, usually Bach) and accompanies himself on the piano."


----------



## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

My favorite Turkish March:


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> That's one thing I love about it.


Koroliov takes it slowly like Gould, he's less stiff than Gould in the pulse department.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

chu42 said:


> My favorite Turkish March:


I love that one as well. Lang Lang is another favorite of mine, though also unpopular around here.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> Koroliov takes it slowly like Gould, he's less stiff than Gould in the pulse department.


This version is a bit less dramatic in comparison to Gould's I feel.


----------



## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

*Glenn Gould's Turkish March*

No no no. That's _not_ the "Alla Turca" from Mozart's Piano Sonata No. 11 in A major. Gould's performing a different piece, a movement Mozart rejected from his unfinished Thanksgiving Day Sonata, the movement titled "Alla Tacchino" ("in the way of a Turkey") which depicts the doomed bird taking one last triumphal strut around the turkey house.

[video]https://ak.picdn.net/shutterstock/videos/1013308235/preview/stock-footage-colorful-farmer-turkey-cock-with-red-head-behind-the-fence-of-the-farm-the-village-bird-s-yard.webm[/video]

The music ably fits the proper circumstance, which you'll notice if you play the Gould performance to accompany the above video.

By the way, perhaps Gould vocalizes in joyful anticipation of soon feasting on the strutting bird, which, with a side of mashed potatoes and gravy, will prove "Alla Tasty."


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

SONNET CLV said:


> *Glenn Gould's Turkish March*
> 
> No no no. That's _not_ the "Alla Turca" from Mozart's Piano Sonata No. 11 in A major. Gould's performing a different piece, a movement Mozart rejected from his unfinished Thanksgiving Day Sonata, the movement titled "Alla Tacchino" ("in the way of a Turkey") which depicts the doomed bird taking one last triumphal strut around the turkey house.
> 
> ...


Very clever!


----------



## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

I endorse Gould's interpretation, especially since he could have played it as fast as anyone. I think that by slowing it down he brings out the inner beauty of the work. You can hear someone else play it as if it's Rimsky's _Flight of the Bumblebee_, and say "Wow", but is it music? If you could hear someone play Rimsky's _Flight of the Bumblee_ on a trumpet, blowing it out of his ear while under water, and with one hand tied behind his back, that it would be amazing too, but would it be music? Acrobatics doesn't equal music.


----------



## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

We must all remember that a lot of what we like or don't like is based on what we are used to hearing or what we grew up with.

Perhaps if everyone played it at Gould's tempo, the normal tempo would seem far too fast!


----------



## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I absolutely love this version, the steadiness and precision all work together to make it a memorable performance.


It is well paced. I can see why this version might be very well liked.

This one here sounds interesting, quite well paced and played on a clavichord:


----------



## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Looks like I'm in the minority so far with liking this one, oh well.


Nope. Count me in as a fan of this version. Actually I love all of Glenn's Mozart sonatas.

Those who don't like it clearly have Van Gogh's ear for music!:lol:

Only kidding folks, before all you non-Gouldians blow a gasket.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

ArtMusic said:


> It is well paced. I can see why this version might be very well liked.
> 
> This one here sounds interesting, quite well paced and played on a clavichord:


That is a fantastic version, he must've been inspired by the Gould version, no?


----------



## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

Captainnumber36 said:


> That is a fantastic version, he must've been inspired by the Gould version, no?


No. He was inspired by the idea that everyone played half of metronome tempo back in the day.

Wim Winters is a raving nutjob and one of the flat earthers of classical music. Maybe you like his Mozart but I doubt you'll like his Chopin:






Or his Schubert/Liszt:






I have no problem if he just likes practicing that way, or if he thinks it sounds good. But he believes that these are the actual tempi that historical pianists like Liszt and Chopin played at, which is just absolutely ridiculous.


----------



## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

chu42 said:


> No. He was inspired by the idea that everyone played half of metronome tempo back in the day.
> 
> Wim Winters is a raving nutjob and one of the flat earthers of classical music. Maybe you like his Mozart but I doubt you'll like his Chopin:
> 
> ...


What?? Are you saying the earth is not flat? Next you'll be telling me that there is such a thing as objectivity in music! Get thee behind me Santa. I'll have no truck with heretics. :lol:


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

chu42 said:


> No. He was inspired by the idea that everyone played half of metronome tempo back in the day.
> 
> Wim Winters is a raving nutjob and one of the flat earthers of classical music. Maybe you like his Mozart but I doubt you'll like his Chopin:
> 
> ...


What about his argument about the Chopin?



> If you see pianists play this piece faster than this tempo, you bet the sustaining pedal is what comes to rescue (as the right pedal is the best friend of the industrial tempi we today wrongly believe are authentic).
> 
> But without pedal, with this fingering, this etude becomes a total different ball game. One needs to be careful, even on the lighter action of the Viennese action I'm playing on (and for which this piece is composed), to not overstress your hand. Playing this etude, legato, as written for hours can and will give you injuries.


Have you tried it on a piano at a conservatory standard tempo without sustain pedal and using Chopin's fingering?

(Wim Winters has uploaded a few clavichord recordings which, to me, sound really too loud for a clavichord. I asked him how he gets the volume and he just avoided answering -- I bet it's some sort of modernised instrument which he's trying to pass off as baroque. Even Landowska was open about her instrument. Winters, I think, is being misleading.)


----------



## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

Mandryka said:


> What about his argument about the Chopin?
> 
> Have you tried it on a piano at a conservatory standard tempo without sustain pedal and using Chopin's fingering?


This is one of many of his cherry-picked arguments. There are a select few pieces that can be played slower on a period instrument and still retain coherence.

But on the vast, vast, vast majority of repertoire, a slower tempo requires modern piano developments to pull off.

It makes complete sense to me that people actually played faster back then to make up for the relative lack of note sustain, the shallow action, and the weaker pedals.

In fact, this is how Hans von Bülow explained Beethoven's absurd markings in the Hammerklavier:



> Von Bülow's go-to excuse for the apparent quickness in Beethoven's markings is that the Viennese fortepianos that were popular in Beethoven's day had a shallow sonority and a light action compared to the modern reinforced grand pianos that became popular well after Beethoven's death. This is a sound explanation because as pianos over time become heavier and fuller in sound, it would logically follow that pianists would respond to these changes by playing slower, not quicker.


Keep in mind that von Bülow was born in 1830, so he should have had full knowledge of Beethoven's or Czerny's metronome practices. He was very well acquainted with Czerny, who was the teacher of his teacher, Liszt. Or certainly Liszt would have known Czerny's metronome practices.

Yet it never comes to his mind that Beethoven interpreted the metronome differently than he did-because Beethoven didn't interpret the metronome different than he did.

The founder of the metronome (Johann Maelzel, whom Beethoven knew very well) literally wrote in the instruction manual:



> The metronome numbers all have reference to a minute of time; when the weight is placed at 50, *fifty beats or ticks will be obtained in a minute*.


Beethoven was deaf, not blind. There is no reason for him to use the metronome in a different fashion than was set by the inventor.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

But I'm not following you. In the case of the etude he seems to be saying that you just can't play it faster without a sustain pedal and using the fingering. Perhaps I've misunderstood, but if that's what he is saying, is he right?

Put aside the question of coherence for the moment, let's get clear on the physical possibilities first. We can then talk about other things meaningfully.


----------



## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

Mandryka said:


> But I'm not following you. In the case of the etude he's seems to be saying that you just can't play it faster without a sustain pedal and using the fingering. Perhaps I've misunderstood, but if that's what he is saying, is he right?
> 
> Put aside the question of coherence for the moment, let's get clear on the physical possibilities first. We can then talk about other things meaningfully.


I wouldn't rely on Wim Winter's assessment of what is possible or not on the piano, as his own technical capabilities are highly suspect. He claims the impossibility of many things that are indeed possible.

On 10/2 itself, his assertions are particularly contrived and can be disproven with a simple Youtube search. There is no reason why sustain pedal is required to play it with the correct fingering. Many pianists play this work with hardly any pedal at all.






Just because Winters himself cannot do it does not mean that no one else can, even if it does take extraordinary abilities like those seen by Shishkin in the above recording (this etude at full tempo is still one of the most impressive pieces to pull off even today).

But certainly, these etudes were never meant to be easily played-one contemporaneous review of the Etudes noted that "one should not play them, unless they have a surgeon handy".

I couldn't imagine anyone saying that if Chopin did indeed play them at the tepid pace shown here.






Chopin was, after all, supposed to be one of the greatest pianists of all time.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

That’s all I wanted to know. As I suggested, my own experiences with him vis a vis the clavichord makes me a bit suspicious of his integrity. Hopefully he’s reading this and will intervene!


----------



## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

Mandryka said:


> That's all I wanted to know. As I suggested, my own experiences with him vis a vis the clavichord makes me a bit suspicious of his integrity. Hopefully he's reading this and will intervene!


No hopes of that. Hundreds have commented all manner of statements debunking his theories, and Wim is content to simply remove and block those who disagree with him.


----------



## mparta (Sep 29, 2020)

chu42 said:


> I wouldn't rely on Wim Winter's assessment of what is possible or not on the piano, as his own technical capabilities are highly suspect. He claims the impossibility of many things that are indeed possible.
> 
> On 10/2 itself, his assertions are particularly contrived and can be disproven with a simple Youtube search. There is no reason why sustain pedal is required to play it with the correct fingering. Many pianists play this work with hardly any pedal at all.
> 
> ...


That a minor etude may be the most difficult piece in the repertoire, pace Gaspard or Islamey or whatever. Having said that, if you want a sense of irreality, and understand something about Glenn Gould's surreal technique, there's a recording that overplays the introduction/narration to one of his series of semibiographical videos that Sony published as a box. As is often the case with Gould, the piece no longer sounds like the piece it is, but it is mechanically breathtaking.

I think some pianists can really do it, Lhevinne, Yuja Wang, Hamelin, et al, but still, it's so unnatural.

Sorry for highjacking the subject, but ... well, not really sorry


----------



## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

mparta said:


> That a minor etude may be the most difficult piece in the repertoire, pace Gaspard or Islamey or whatever. Having said that, if you want a sense of irreality, and understand something about Glenn Gould's surreal technique, there's a recording that overplays the introduction/narration to one of his series of semibiographical videos that Sony published as a box. As is often the case with Gould, the piece no longer sounds like the piece it is, but it is mechanically breathtaking.
> 
> I think some pianists can really do it, Lhevinne, Yuja Wang, Hamelin, et al, but still, it's so unnatural.
> 
> Sorry for highjacking the subject, but ... well, not really sorry


Having to play 10/1 and 10/2 back to back is probably one of the top reasons why a pianist wouldn't program Op.10 as a whole. There are some pianists who even rearrange or skip 10/2 because of this very problem.

And in my experience, 10/2 is-out of all of Chopin's works-the one piece that is most conducive to dactylic injury. Another similarly dangerous work is Schumann's C Major Toccata.






There are far harder works out there than these two, but they are not played much at all.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

chu42 said:


> No. He was inspired by the idea that everyone played half of metronome tempo back in the day.
> 
> Wim Winters is a raving nutjob and one of the flat earthers of classical music. Maybe you like his Mozart but I doubt you'll like his Chopin:
> 
> ...


I actually love it. But, I tend to enjoy slower tempos, in general.


----------



## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

I'm glad you enjoy it. My only problem occurs when people state these to be historically informed performances, of which they are not.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Is the Godowski study easier?


----------



## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

Mandryka said:


> Is the Godowski study easier?







The Godowsky is not easier.

Although the fingering is easier to navigate in the left hand (because you get to use the thumb), the addition of the spiky right hand in a 3/4 polyrhythm makes this harder to interpret and pull off effectively.

At least in the original there is really only one technique that must be practiced-the left hand is pretty much infantile.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

chu42 said:


> I wouldn't rely on Wim Winter's assessment of what is possible or not on the piano, as his own technical capabilities are highly suspect. He claims the impossibility of many things that are indeed possible.
> 
> On 10/2 itself, his assertions are particularly contrived and can be disproven with a simple Youtube search. There is no reason why sustain pedal is required to play it with the correct fingering. Many pianists play this work with hardly any pedal at all.
> 
> ...


I also enjoy the Dmitry version.


----------



## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

Hamelin's version:






A true monstrosity.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

chu42 said:


> Hamelin's version:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hamelin could play that and play a Haydn sonata at the same time.


----------



## Radames (Feb 27, 2013)

That's the way I would have to play it. If I could play piano.


----------

