# Not About Beethoven's 5th Symphony



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Rather, this is about other composer's symphonies. Mahler, Shostakovich, Mendelssohn, Saint-Saens, etc. For any composer, what of their symphonies do you see as their "Beethoven's 5th"? 

I'll start with Rachmaninoff's First being his Beethoven 5th. Why? Because it is Rachmaninoff's most bombastic symphony (so it seems to me) and so was the 5th Beethoven's most bombastic symphony. There are probably a hundred different aspects of Beethoven's 5th (musical, historical, composer's life issues, etc.) that can be used to make a comparison, so don't limit it to bombasticness which is rather superficial anyway, eh, but is all i could come up with.

Perhaps someone will come up with deeper comparisons that that which I have. If nothing else, maybe I will be tempted to try some composer's symphonies that I have not heard yet.

Or perhaps this thread will end up listed in the Stupid Thread Ideas thread. :lol:


----------



## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

This will get more responses if you ask a mod to move it to the right forum.


----------



## mrdoc (Jan 3, 2020)

Art Rock said:


> This will get more responses if you ask a mod to move it to the right forum.


Why? if you check "new posts" it will show up and if it is of interest you can have a look, I am not being argumentative :tiphat:


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

It would get more replies on the main board though.

Q for the OP: 

Are our options limited to symphonies? Like, if I can make an argument that Monteverdi's 5th book of madrigals has a role in his output analogous to the role Beethoven's 5th has in his output, would that be valid for you, or would it be off topic?


----------



## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

mrdoc said:


> Why? if you check "new posts" it will show up and if it is of interest you can have a look, I am not being argumentative :tiphat:


Lots of members do not use that function, and lots are allergic to polls and games.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

science said:


> It would get more replies on the main board though.
> 
> Q for the OP:
> 
> Are our options limited to symphonies? Like, if I can make an argument that Monteverdi's 5th book of madrigals has a role in his output analogous to the role Beethoven's 5th has in his output, would that be valid for you, or would it be off topic?


Sure, lets leave it wide open for any interpretation/comparison you or others wish to make. That will expose us to more and varied works.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Art Rock said:


> This will get more responses if you ask a mod to move it to the right forum.


I am not sure what the right forum is for this.


----------



## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I'd say Classical Music Discussion. Since it is neither a game nor a poll, it should not be where it is right now.


----------



## mrdoc (Jan 3, 2020)

Art Rock said:


> Lots of members do not use that function, and lots are allergic to *polls and games.*


I have noticed the abundance of those, I think I would be one of them.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Art Rock said:


> I'd say Classical Music Discussion. Since it is neither a game nor a poll, it should not be where it is right now.


I don't know what is wrong with my head! I thought I did put it in Classical Music Discussion, but I seen now it is one level below that. Ok, I'll get with a mod. Thanks.


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Is Shostakovich's 5th his Beethoven 5th? Or would it be Shostakovich's 7th?


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Shostakovich's most bombastic symphony (quite a lot of competition there) may be his 12th or as many Shostakovich fans look down on it you could go for the 10th.


----------



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Bombastic is not the word I'd use to describe Beethoven's 5th. I'd use the phrase "a focused hell-raising pivotal work". I do agree with flamencosketches about Shostakovich's 5th being that. Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique, Prokofiev's 6th sonata and Stravinsky's Rite of Spring get my vote.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Nor me - but the OP implies this is part of what we are looking for.


----------



## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Mahler's 5th. So bombastically silly it makes me ROFL everytime.




I'm just kidding.


----------



## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

If I were to define the essence of Beethoven's 5th, I don't think bombastic off the top of my head, I think profound in its thematic simpleness. The structure of it for Romantic is similar to Dvorak's 9th while for Classical it's Mozart's 40th, in that it's built up of solely connective themes that are always interchanging and catchy.

And this is achieved in the best way possible. His other symphonies are more loose, explorative, less defined.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Enthusiast said:


> Nor me - but the OP implies this is part of what we are looking for.


I don't know what I am looking for but maybe we will find it!


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Mozart's Jupiter has the same feisty energy of Beethoven's 5th I feel!


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Works that for me seem to have a somewhat similar emotional arc:

Nielsen 3rd - Espansiva
Sibelius 2nd & (perhaps) 5th

I can't think of any by Vaughan Williams, Bruckner, Shostakovich, Mendelssohn et. al. which would fit. Not even Mahler although his 5th would be a somewhat simplistic answer.


----------



## Forsooth (Apr 17, 2018)

If Beethoven's 5th symphony is bombastic, then it is a good bombasticism. Perhaps Beethoven can be credited with introducing bombasticism into symphonic music (thinking about his Emperor cto. also).



Becca said:


> Works that for me seem to have a somewhat similar emotional arc:
> Nielsen 3rd - Espansiva
> Sibelius 2nd & (perhaps) 5th
> I can't think of any by Vaughan Williams, Bruckner, Shostakovich, Mendelssohn et. al. which would fit. Not even Mahler although his 5th would be a somewhat simplistic answer.


I would probably say that the Shostakovich 5th has some bombastic goodness...thinking about the Nelsons/BPO performance.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I said the 'overall arc' of the work, not degree of bombasticism ... whatever that is


----------



## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

"Bombastic: high-sounding but with little meaning; inflated." - Google Dictionary

While I agree that Beethoven's 5th is a very powerful work, I can't think of it as having "little meaning" or being "inflated". Every note in the symphony is there for a purpose in my opinion, as if each of them was inevitable; remove one and this compromises the whole. In no way it can be classified as "bombastic" for me.

This said, my view about the symphony is that it represents the composer's inner feelings and despair about becoming a deaf musician and his strong will to overcome this adversity. It's a very personal and expressive work in my perspective. Other troubled works that somehow remind me of what I think that the Fifth represents for Beethoven - a great composer dealing with his personal tragedy - are the _Unfinished_ symphony for Schubert, the _Pathétique_ for Tchaikovsky, the 40th for Mozart, the 2nd piano sonata for Chopin, the organ passacaglia for J.S. Bach and _Tristan und Isolde_ for Wagner.


----------



## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Allerius said:


> This said, my view about the symphony is that it represents the composer's inner feelings and despair about becoming a deaf composer and his strong will to overcome this adversity. It's a very personal and expressive work in my perspective.




I thought Beethoven's 5th was about a dog waking up lost, getting beat up by the local dog gang, being dubbed with a great test, finding love, and making life-long friends.


----------



## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Ethereality said:


> I thought Beethoven's 5th was about a dog waking up lost, getting beat up by the local dog gang, being dubbed with a great test, finding love, and making life-long friends.


Probably what he intended to portray of course. How come I didn't think about this?


----------



## Forsooth (Apr 17, 2018)

Ethereality said:


> I thought Beethoven's 5th was about a dog waking up lost, getting beat up by the local dog gang, being dubbed with a great test, finding love, and making life-long friends.


I love happy endings.


----------



## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Forsooth said:


> I love happy endings.


Yes. The transition from the 3rd to 4th movement is meant to be a joyful uproar of dog barks much like when Vivaldi evoked bird chirps in the four seasons.


----------



## Scott in PA (Aug 13, 2016)

Mahler's Fifth for sure. The sense of an epic struggle and an overcoming of _fate_ is present in both works.


----------



## David Phillips (Jun 26, 2017)

Becca said:


> Works that for me seem to have a somewhat similar emotional arc:
> 
> Nielsen 3rd - Espansiva
> Sibelius 2nd & (perhaps) 5th
> ...


RVW's 4th Symphony is surely inspired by Beethoven's 5th with the same crescendo idea between the 3rd and 4th movements followed by the similar three-note rhythm hammered out.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Some here are talking about bombast, some are talking about details within the symphonies, I am talking about the overall emotional journey from beginning too end. The RVW 4th is far more like the Mahler 6th than any of the Beethoven symphonies.

As to Mahler's 5th, yes it does start very dark and end on a much more upbeat mood, but as much as I like the symphony, it and the Beethoven 5th have about as much similarity as the two composers did, i.e. not very much!


----------



## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Ethereality said:


> I thought Beethoven's 5th was about a dog waking up lost, getting beat up by the local dog gang, being dubbed with a great test, finding love, and making life-long friends.


are you referring to this by any chance?


----------



## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Beethoven's Fifth is lean, concise and deeply meaningful, the opposite of bombastic in every important sense. in fact, the Fifth is the type specimen for the meaningful symphony, arguably the first abstract instrumental work to generate a long history of narrative interpretation.* It is the archetype of the struggle to victory, light to dark "plot type." It's pattern of transforming minor-mode material from the first movement in a major-mode finale was imitated in numerous later works, including Schumann's Fourth, Tchaikovsky's 4th and 5th, Franck's D minor, Mahler 5, nearly every major work Rachmaninoff ever wrote, Shostakovich 10 and Quartet no. 5, along with countless other Russian works of the 20thc. 

*I'd say the Eroica except that so much of the critical writing for the 3rd was quasi-programmatic, citing Napoleon and other assorted heroes


----------



## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Tchaikovsky's 4th?

Also, agreed entirely that Beethoven's 5th is not empty bombast. It is rich and complex with great development of themes.


----------



## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

MatthewWeflen said:


> Tchaikovsky's 4th?
> 
> Also, agreed entirely that Beethoven's 5th is not empty bombast. It is rich and complex with great development of themes.


In a letter to Nadejda von Meck, Tchaikovsky said that his Fourth is a reflection of Beethoven's Fifth, that he had not borrowed its contents but only the basic idea. By this he seems to have meant the return of a Fate motive (he used that term) in the finale, which notion he got from A.B. Marx's interpretation of Beethoven's Fifth.

You are right to question though - the material from the first movement Tchaikovsky reprises in the finale isn't set in the major mode.


----------



## Alfacharger (Dec 6, 2013)

I give you America's Beethoven 5th, John Paines' 1st


----------



## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Alfacharger said:


> I give you America's Beethoven 5th, John Paines' 1st


A beautiful symphony indeed! I didn't know it nor it's composer. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

*Not About Beethoven's 5th Symphony*

My initial response to seeing this title was: "That's too bad."

I appreciate most things "Beethoven's 5th Symphony".



Fritz Kobus said:


> Rather, this is about other composer's symphonies. Mahler, Shostakovich, Mendelssohn, Saint-Saens, etc. For any composer, what of their symphonies do you see as their "Beethoven's 5th"?
> 
> I'll start with Rachmaninoff's First being his Beethoven 5th. Why? Because it is Rachmaninoff's most bombastic symphony (so it seems to me) and so was the 5th Beethoven's most bombastic symphony. ...
> :lol:





Phil loves classical said:


> Bombastic is not the word I'd use to describe Beethoven's 5th. I'd use the phrase "a focused hell-raising pivotal work". I do agree with flamencosketches about Shostakovich's 5th being that. Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique, Prokofiev's 6th sonata and Stravinsky's Rite of Spring get my vote.


I'll agree with Phil on the Beethoven Fifth. No bombast there. All is calculated genius, sublimely done. Effectively composed crescendos, climaxes, and triple_ f _chords do not necessarily add up to bombast.

Neither can I agree that Shosty's great Fifth is bombastic. Maybe his Eleventh (a favorite of mine) is. Maybe the Seventh (which in another thread I recently termed "banal trash", but _good_ banal trash).

There is bombast in the Berlioz _Fantastique_, but bombast is what makes Berlioz Berlioz. And still, there is much there that is simply sublime music making.

It's easier for me to defend bombast in the Liszt tone poems, though I love _Les Preludes_.

If one requires bombast from Beethoven, I suggest the _Wellington's Victory Symphony_. Tchaikovsky's _1812 Overture_ is full of bombast, too, especially in versions that feature full chorus, bells, guns, and cannons. And those are always the best versions of the piece, as Antal Dorati and Mercury taught us years ago, even without the explanatory commentary of Deems Taylor. One may wonder if the Russian could have composed such an _Overture_ had Beethoven not composed his _Wellington's_.

To my tastes, the masters of musical bombast remain Rued Langgaard and Jón Leifs. But it's glorious bombast nonetheless. The rock guitarist Glenn Branca has composed several bombastic "symphonies", especially his Number One. Try that on your headphones someday if you haven't yet heard it; but don't attempt it on a day when you already have a headache. You'll have enough of one when the symphony ends, if you make it to the end.

Too, Schnittke's First Symphony is a statement of bombast, but then the Schnittke First Symphony is a statement of just about everything, it is so vast and uncategorical.

I can't see _Rite of Spring_ as bombastic, since it seems so balanced in its message; the big heavy loudness has meaning. Bombast is big heavy loudness without real meaning -- maybe big heavy loudness for the sake of big heavy loudness. Maybe even dull quietness for the sake of dull quietness can qualify as bombast. Must bombast necessarily be bold and overloaded? Isn't much of Philip Glass bombastic? And repetitively so? I suspect quiet garbage music is bombastic, and also a waste of time to listen to.

I think that before we can designate a work as bombastic we have to agree that what we are designating as such is generally worthless in a musical sense. If there is meaning behind what might be termed bombast (say, in Tchaikovsky's Fourth Symphony) I'm not certain we can argue the bombast title. (I certainly wouldn't call Tchaikovsky's Fourth bombastic.)

Let's reserve bombast for poorly composed music by poor composers, and leave it at that. (But ... do give Beethoven's _Wellington's Victory_ a listen every so often, especially when you're in the mood for some, shall we say it?, bombast.)


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

SONNET CLV said:


> I think that before we can designate a work as bombastic we have to agree that what we are designating as such is generally worthless in a musical sense. If there is meaning behind what might be termed bombast (say, in Tchaikovsky's Fourth Symphony) I'm not certain we can argue the bombast title. (I certainly wouldn't call Tchaikovsky's Fourth bombastic.)
> 
> Let's reserve bombast for poorly composed music by poor composers, and leave it at that. (But ... do give Beethoven's _Wellington's Victory_ a listen every so often, especially when you're in the mood for some, shall we say it?, bombast.)


Poor choice of words on my part, bombastic. Let's rather say "lively." Anyway, I wish the thread would now leave bombast behind and come to other, better comparisons.


----------

