# “Complete sets” that need editing



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Suggested by a new Dvorak symphony cycle post:

There are quite a few "sets" and "cycles" around that have members unworthy of standing in the company of their neighbors. For instance: Beethoven didn't write 32 piano sonatas; he wrote 30 plus two sonatines intended for beginners, nice enough but of vastly less musical interest. So I propose that the Op. 49 "sonatas" be reclassified as sonatines, lose their opus number, and be relegated to the WoO listing. Then the new sonata cycle can be properly renumbered from No. 1 to No. 30.

How about you? Want to tidy things up a bit? What sets or cycles do _you _think need editing?


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Well, of course, there is the fact that Mozart didn't write a 37th Symphony, so really only 40 "canonical" ones. Is there a similar situation with Haydn, or am I imagining that? The Mahler debate has been well played-out in other threads. Mendelssohn's "Lobgesang" doesn't strike me as fitting enough for the title of his 2nd Symphony. I'm sure there are more that I'm blanking out on right now.


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## DaddyGeorge (Mar 16, 2020)

I can think of Bruckner, I don't know the scores of his unnumbered symphonies, so I don't have a clear view of whether to include them in the cycle, but I don't like too much the numbering of symphony in D minor as #0 and sometimes even symphony in F minor as #00.
I can also think of Schubert's (7/8) or Dvořák's (5/9) symphonies, although I know that, given the historical context, that uniformity of numbering is problematic.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

I often wish we could eliminate the second and third symphonies from Shostakovich's set. He probably would too!


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I certainly wouldn't mind a "complete" Mozart symphony set that only included about 20 symphonies.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

KenOC said:


> There are quite a few "sets" and "cycles" around that have members unworthy of standing in the company of their neighbors. For instance: Beethoven didn't write 32 piano sonatas; he wrote 30 plus two sonatines intended for beginners, nice enough but of vastly less musical interest. So I propose that the Op. 49 "sonatas" be reclassified as sonatines, lose their opus number, and be relegated to the WoO listing. Then the new sonata cycle can be properly renumbered from No. 1 to No. 30.


The Op.49 sonatas are pretty good actually. Beethoven didn't write 32 piano sonatas; he wrote 31 sonatas and 1 "piece of monstrosity" numbered Op.106. So I propose that Op.106 be reclassified as a "monster", lose its opus number, and be relegated to the Hess listing, since it only has as much artistic value as the counterpoint exercises he did with Haydn and Albrechtsberger. Then the new sonata cycle can be properly renumbered from No. 1 to No.31.

Of course, I'm just kidding.



Allegro Con Brio said:


> Well, of course, there is the fact that Mozart didn't write a 37th Symphony, so really only 40 "canonical" ones.


There are several numbered ones (Nos. 2, 3, 11) that are considered 'spurious', so roughly Mozart wrote like 37 "authentic" symphonies.
_"There are also several "unnumbered" symphonies from this time period. Many of them were given numbers past 41 (but not in chronological order) in an older collection of Mozart's works (Mozart-Werke, 1877-1910, referred to as "GA"), but newer collections refer to them only by their entries in the Köchel catalogue. Many of these cannot be definitively established as having been written by Mozart"_


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## Lilijana (Dec 17, 2019)

mbhaub said:


> I often wish we could eliminate the second and third symphonies from Shostakovich's set. He probably would too!


NOOOO

These are two of the best things he wrote!

Good grief, this thread is full of some real spicy takes.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I'm still trying to figure out if Tchaikovsky wrote only six symphonies; or seven! Or, if Ormandy is right, a 7th in E-Flat … or is that the 8th?! Or is that actually Ormandy's First!!!

























I don't even want to get into how we are supposed to _spell_ Tchaikovsky's name. I have albums with Tchaikowsky, Tschaikowsky, Tschaikovsky, Chaikovsky, Tjajkovskij, Tchaikowski ...


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Schubert symphonies, of course (remove no. 7).

The book _Mozart and his Piano Concertos_ (along with numerous other sources) disregards the first four concertos, which are transcriptions of works by other composers, and labels k. 175 (what we think of #5) as #1.

I disagree with the post quoted in the OP regarding Beethoven's op. 49 sonatas.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Haydn could use a little attention. He wrote 106 surviving symphonies, including Symphonies A and B. None are of doubtful attribution. So his symphonies should be re-ordered to match current estimates of their composition dates (some are quite a bit off now) with A and B placed in proper sequence and numbered accordingly. Then we’d never again have to hear that “Haydn wrote 104 symphonies” stuff!


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## Lilijana (Dec 17, 2019)

KenOC said:


> Haydn could use a little attention. He wrote 106 surviving symphonies, including Symphonies A and B. None are of doubtful attribution. So his symphonies should be re-ordered to match current estimates of their composition dates (some are quite a bit off now) with A and B placed in proper sequence and numbered accordingly. Then we'd never again have to hear that "Haydn wrote 104 symphonies" stuff!


This made me think.......

A bunch of Segerstam symphonies are, in reality, 'orchestral diary sheets' as he originally referred to them. Perhaps we can cut down on his numbered symphonies to make it a little more manageable.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Lilijana said:


> NOOOO
> 
> These are two of the best things he wrote!
> 
> Good grief, this thread is full of some real spicy takes.


Now that's a hot take. But if you insist. I'll have to revisit those two symphonies with that in mind...


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## Long02 (Jun 23, 2018)

I would definitely consider Bruckner and numbering his Symphonies 1-11. 
Although his earlier Symphonies are considered as his study Symphonies I found them to be really likeable if not as deep as his later works. There are a couple of cycles out there which include these works but it would be great to see some of the better Bruckner conductors attempt them


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I don't think the numbering of Bruckner's symphonies is the real problem - it's the different versions/editions for most of them which turn the cycle into a bit of a hornets nest.


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## Long02 (Jun 23, 2018)

Yeah there’s no arguing with that. If we were to do a cycle with all his versions his symphonic output might begin to look more like Haydn’s


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## christomacin (Oct 21, 2017)

Shosty's Symphony No. 12 isn't so hot, either.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I could never see the point of numbering Schubert's piano sonatas as 1-21 seeing that only eleven were completed with any real certainty. The earlier Breitkopf & Härtel numbering was closer to the mark with fifteen but even that muddied the waters.


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## Subutai (Feb 28, 2021)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Well, of course, there is the fact that Mozart didn't write a 37th Symphony, so really only 40 "canonical" ones. Is there a similar situation with Haydn, or am I imagining that? The Mahler debate has been well played-out in other threads. Mendelssohn's "Lobgesang" doesn't strike me as fitting enough for the title of his 2nd Symphony. I'm sure there are more that I'm blanking out on right now.


You're correct about Mendelssohn's 2nd symphony. Actually he never classed it as a symphony and because he died young and his work was all over the place, it was classed as his 2nd symphony. Fact! In the latest official opus listings of Mendelssohn's works 'Lobegesang' has now been reclassified as a cantata and NOT a symphony. What the site is called I don't recall but it is official.


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## Subutai (Feb 28, 2021)

MarkW said:


> I certainly wouldn't mind a "complete" Mozart symphony set that only included about 20 symphonies.


I wouldn't mind a complete Haydn set with only 20 symphonies. If Bruckner wrote the same symphony 8 3/4 times (according to grouchy Stravinsky) what does that say about Haydn?


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

MarkW said:


> I certainly wouldn't mind a "complete" Mozart symphony set that only included about 20 symphonies.


Although there are a few of the earlier ones that I enjoy (including the 1st!), I can recommend this set.

View attachment 153255


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

Shostakovich's 2nd, 3rd, and 12th symphonies are not THAT bad. If Kabalevsky, Khachaturian, or Myaskovsky composed them they'd be solid second-tier music of the Soviet school, but because it's Shostakovich we expect more. If we American's can manage to ignore the Bolshevik subtext of these symphonies, the _Symphony #2 "October"_ reveals as youthful side to the composer Stalin crushed his spirit, and the 2nd even gets a little experimental in some parts. The _Symphony #3 "May Day"_ is not as interesting but makes a good companion piece for the 2nd, sort of like a standard classical music double feature, like that _Pagliacci/Cavelleria_ thing or Debussy/Ravel _String Quartets_.The _Symphony #12 "Lenin"_ is bombastic and a little bit crass but it's entertaining enough, and also as good as any symphony by any Russian composer of the Soviet era save for Prokofiev. It's certainly as entertaining as that mess of a symphony that Khachaturian composed with the trumpets and the organ and whatever else he thought to toss in there.

I have these recordings on LP, now collector's items:


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

SONNET CLV said:


> I'm still trying to figure out if Tchaikovsky wrote only six symphonies; or seven! Or, if Ormandy is right, a 7th in E-Flat … or is that the 8th?! Or is that actually Ormandy's First!!!
> 
> [edit]


I kind of enjoy this sort of thing . . . reconstructions or alternate additional works.

Someone wrote a "_*Pluto*_" for *Holst's The Planets*.
Someone also "reconstructed" *Gilbert & Sullivan's* first operetta *Thespis*.
A few folks have finished *Schubert's "Unfinished" Symphony*
I think some self proclaimed psychic wrote out *Beethoven's 10th Symphony*.
And more than one fan has created fake *Beatles* albums using solo materials, myself included.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

Give the nickname "Miracle" assigned to Haydn's Symphony 96 to Symphony 102 instead since it has been proven that it was #102 when the chandelier fell. That would give nicknames to Haydn's last five symphonies too (Military, Clock, Miracle, Drumroll, London).

I'd also like to see Saint-Saens FIVE symphonies all be numbered.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Olias said:


> ...
> 
> I'd also like to see Saint-Saens FIVE symphonies all be numbered.


At least all five Saint-Saëns symphonies have names.

There is the saintly No. 3, the "Organ" Symphony.

And then the other four, the "Saëns Organ" symphonies.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

* "Complete sets" that need editing*

Here's a Complete Set box that's in need of some editing: _*Philip Glass: The Complete Sony Recordings*_, a 24 disc set.









I wish there had been some _music_ added to it.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Olias said:


> I'd also like to see Saint-Saens FIVE symphonies all be numbered.


Agreed. Makes no sense and is hard to keep track of:


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