# François Couperin and Johann Sebastian Bach - Champions of Keyboard Music



## Lord Lance

*Bach*​
When I started listening to classical music, I came upon innumerous recommendations to start with Bach's music - WTC and Goldberg Variations specifically. I did and oddly enough, I did not enjoy it even the slightest. I despised it entirely, the writing had no breathing! Oh, its like listening to a factory machine! What is it about his works that people find so appealing?

I abandoned and several months later I listened to his works - this time on harpsichord and it clicked. The writing suddenly seemed pleasing - I make so false pretense of understanding its mastery or the complex note structures or themes or any harmonic progression; but I liked it. Piano didn't work and contrary to people's opinion harpsichord wasn't repulsive at all. I naturally liked it and its - uhh - different and harsh tone seemed appealing to me. Hence, my love for Bach began. A rather long road to success. But, then again, his music never was easy.

*Couperin*​
While researching for Baroque music composers for the harpsichord. [An instrument which I love so tremendously - as you may have guessed] On top of the list (along with Scarlatti whose music I also condemned but suddenly unabashedly enjoy) was Couperin. Started on the fourth book and loved instantly. Well? That didn't take any time at all. Fascination from the go. I listen to him regularly.

*Question​*
Bach and Couperin's music both I listened to but the latter's struck me instantly while the former's took quite omse time. My question is, why did Couperin's Livres cap me instantly while Bach's - who is a clearly greater and more influential composer - didn't?

Does Couperin's output have approachability which Bach's lacks?


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## Ukko

Ludwig van Beethoven said:


> [...]
> Question
> 
> Bach and Couperin's music both I listened to but the latter's struck me instantly while the former's took quite omse time. My question is, why did Couperin's Livres cap me instantly while Bach's - who is a clearly greater and more influential composer - didn't?
> 
> Does Couperin's output have approachability which Bach's lacks?


There is an _*obvious*_ answer to your question: Couperin was not German.

There are several *rinky-dink* answers too, of course; as in:

1) Couperin's harpsichord music is a snugger fit on the harpsichord than Bach's general purpose stuff.

2) François built on Louis' foundation. Louis' music is closer to _Baroque-pop_ than Bach's.

There are a multitude more of rinky-dink answers, some of which will probably seep into this thread; pick out the ones that please you.

Disregard and discount the possibility that you are a weirdo. Or relish the possibility that you are 'different'. The latter tack is pretty easy to manage, I do it all the time.


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## Taggart

OK that's harpsichord. But both wrote for orchestra as well, what about Bach's Brandenburg concerti and Couperin's concerts royaux say in the version by Jordi Savall? Which do you find more appealling? Then you could move on to organ works or sacred music.

There is also the thought, as Ukko pointed out, that the French baroque can be more appealing than the German as it is lighter in approach.


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## Mandryka

As far as solo keyboard music goes, I think François Couperin isn't as deep as Bach, though I can see that the preludes are fabulous. That's because unmeasured music has an improvisatory quality -- I like all the unmeasured music I've heard. And I would say that the music in the later books of ordres is more interesting to hear than the earlier books. 

Louis Couperin is for me a far more interesting keyboard composer. There's a sort of "from the heart" quality to his music which I love very much. Louis Couperin reminds me of Schumann in that respect. 

Oh by the way check the Apotheoses -- especially if you can find a recording with commentary and you can understand French. Great fun once in a while. 

I quite like F Couperin's late duos for keyboard and viol. But again I think the Bach gamba sonatas are deeper, and encompass more, do more. I very much like Leçons de Tenèbre though it's hard to find a satisfying performance, especially Part 3. Much as I have enjoyed the concerts royaux I think that nothing compares to Brandenburg 5/i or BC 6 for depth. 

Quite clearly neither Couperin beats JSB for organ. LC is particularly disappointing here. Much of it in Moroney's recordings may be falsely attributed, according to Glen Wilson. 

So basically I see for keyboard music at least, F Couperin a notch below L Couperin and a notch above Rameau, two notches below J S Bach.

Scarlatti doesn't even figure. Show off bravura music. Just a bunch of keyboard tricks.

The Coup family may be more impressive than the Bach family though. The Bachs contributed the greatest composer of all time and a bunch of minor ones. The Coups contributed two absolutely exceptional composers at least.


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## Lord Lance

Mandryka said:


> As far as solo keyboard music goes, I think François Couperin isn't as deep as Bach, though I can see that the preludes are fabulous. That's because unmeasured music has an improvisatory quality -- I like all the unmeasured music I've heard. And I would say that the music in the later books of ordres is more interesting to hear than the earlier books.
> 
> Louis Couperin is for me a far more interesting keyboard composer. There's a sort of "from the heart" quality to his music which I love very much. Louis Couperin reminds me of Schumann in that respect.
> 
> Oh by the way check the Apotheoses -- especially if you can find a recording with commentary and you can understand French. Great fun once in a while.
> 
> I quite like F Couperin's late duos for keyboard and viol. But again I think the Bach gamba sonatas are deeper, and encompass more, do more. I very much like Leçons de Tenèbre though it's hard to find a satisfying performance, especially Part 3. Much as I have enjoyed the concerts royaux I think that nothing compares to Brandenburg 5/i or BC 6 for depth.
> 
> Quite clearly neither Couperin beats JSB for organ. LC is particularly disappointing here. Much of it in Moroney's recordings may be falsely attributed, according to Glen Wilson.
> 
> So basically I see for keyboard music at least, F Couperin a notch below L Couperin and a notch above Rameau, two notches below J S Bach.
> 
> Scarlatti doesn't even figure. Show off bravura music. Just a bunch of keyboard tricks.
> 
> The Coup family may be more impressive than the Bach family though. The Bachs contributed the greatest composer of all time and a bunch of minor ones. The Coups contributed two absolutely exceptional composers at least.


JC Bach and CPE Bach's works are exceptionally well written and impressive in their own way - just like JS Bach - especially the later ones, where their writing styles bloomed to show complete individuality and originality. I can't say about WF Bach since his works are neither popular nor do they show the talent of their brother's works. In all honesty, CPE Bach deserves to be recognized as a true genius. His Harpsichord Concertos are superbly written. To say that the Bach family produced one genius is a blasphemy!


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## Lord Lance

Ukko said:


> There is an _*obvious*_ answer to your question: Couperin was not German.
> 
> There are several *rinky-dink* answers too, of course; as in:
> 
> 1) Couperin's harpsichord music is a snugger fit on the harpsichord than Bach's general purpose stuff.
> 
> 2) François built on Louis' foundation. Louis' music is closer to _Baroque-pop_ than Bach's.
> 
> There are a multitude more of rinky-dink answers, some of which will probably seep into this thread; pick out the ones that please you.
> 
> Disregard and discount the possibility that you are a weirdo. Or relish the possibility that you are 'different'. The latter tack is pretty easy to manage, I do it all the time.


I never said or implied any weirdness in any of my remarks. Who say liking the harpsichord makes me "different"? Its an instrument loved by - guess/estimate - at least 75% of lover of Bach's music


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## Lord Lance

Mandryka said:


> As far as solo keyboard music goes, I think François Couperin isn't as deep as Bach, though I can see that the preludes are fabulous. That's because unmeasured music has an improvisatory quality -- I like all the unmeasured music I've heard. And I would say that the music in the later books of ordres is more interesting to hear than the earlier books.
> 
> Louis Couperin is for me a far more interesting keyboard composer. There's a sort of "from the heart" quality to his music which I love very much. Louis Couperin reminds me of Schumann in that respect.
> 
> Oh by the way check the Apotheoses -- especially if you can find a recording with commentary and you can understand French. Great fun once in a while.
> 
> I quite like F Couperin's late duos for keyboard and viol. But again I think the Bach gamba sonatas are deeper, and encompass more, do more. I very much like Leçons de Tenèbre though it's hard to find a satisfying performance, especially Part 3. Much as I have enjoyed the concerts royaux I think that nothing compares to Brandenburg 5/i or BC 6 for depth.
> 
> Quite clearly neither Couperin beats JSB for organ. LC is particularly disappointing here. Much of it in Moroney's recordings may be falsely attributed, according to Glen Wilson.
> 
> So basically I see for keyboard music at least, F Couperin a notch below L Couperin and a notch above Rameau, two notches below J S Bach.
> 
> Scarlatti doesn't even figure. Show off bravura music. Just a bunch of keyboard tricks.
> 
> The Coup family may be more impressive than the Bach family though. The Bachs contributed the greatest composer of all time and a bunch of minor ones. The Coups contributed two absolutely exceptional composers at least.


Unless you have heard and analyzed all 555 of his keyboard sonatas and then come to the conclusion his music is "show off bravura music", your statement is a clear depiction of your lack of appreciation for perhaps the greatest set of keyboard sonatas and your ability to judge things without even the slightest ounce of knowledge.


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## Lord Lance

From the answers I can deduce that Francois Couperin music is lighter and easier to appreciate then Bach but definitely not as great in terms of compositional genius. Since I myself started loving latter's output recently, I think I can attest to that.


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## Bulldog

Ludwig van Beethoven said:


> From the answers I can deduce that Francois Couperin music is lighter and easier to appreciate then Bach but definitely not as great in terms of compositional genius. Since I myself started loving latter's output recently, I think I can attest to that.


I had the opposite experience. It took me quite a long time to appreciate F. Couperin's keyboard works while Bach's were immediately appealing to me; also of immediate appeal were the keyboard works of Louis Couperin.

The light/heavy comparison doesn't apply to my appreciation. There are some composers who I simply connect with much earlier than others; it's a soul-mate sort of thing.


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## Mandryka

Ludwig van Beethoven said:


> Unless you have heard and analyzed all 555 of his keyboard sonatas and then come to the conclusion his music is "show off bravura music", your statement is a clear depiction of your lack of appreciation for perhaps the greatest set of keyboard sonatas and your ability to judge things without even the slightest ounce of knowledge.


You could be right. Which ones are more than keyboard effects? The more humane and meaningful ones?

By the way, the problem could be performance - you know the way Scott Ross and others take them they really play down the humanity and play up the virtuosity. Leonhardt's Scarlatti recordings has me almost thinking there's more to the music than I have given credit for.


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## Mandryka

Ludwig van Beethoven said:


> JC Bach and CPE Bach's works are exceptionally well written and impressive in their own way - just like JS Bach - especially the later ones, where their writing styles bloomed to show complete individuality and originality. I can't say about WF Bach since his works are neither popular nor do they show the talent of their brother's works. In all honesty, CPE Bach deserves to be recognized as a true genius. His Harpsichord Concertos are superbly written. To say that the Bach family produced one genius is a blasphemy!


JC I don't know. I think that CPE is more than well written and impressive when he writes in the sensitive style. The problem is that, as far as I know, he only uses it in some keyboard sonatas. Is that right? The concertos and symphonies are workmanlike as far as I have heard. WF wrote some fine polonaises but everything else I've heard has been less striking.

I think this comparison of the two families is interesting - and is even more so if you take influence into account. Are there any other great Baroque musical families? In Italy or Spain or England? It was, as you know, an age where the craft of music was passed from father to son


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## KenOC

CPE Bach was highly regarded in the later 18th century, including by Beethoven, who recommend or required CPE's treatise on keyboard playing for his pupils. Today, CPE Bach's works seem to be considered more highly than those of the other Bach boys, and I agree with that!

There are several other musical dynasties from early times -- the Gabriellis, the Scarlattis, and some others who escape me right now.


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## Mandryka

KenOC said:


> CPE Bach was highly regarded in the later 18th century, including by Beethoven, who recommend or required CPE's treatise on keyboard playing for his pupils. Today, CPE Bach's works seem to be considered more highly than those of the other Bach boys, and I agree with that!
> 
> There are several other musical dynasties from early times -- the Gabriellis, the Scarlattis, and some others who escape me right now.


How's your back? Hope you're OK.

Yes Scarlatti and Gabrieli, how could I forget. I very much like Andrea Gabrieli,

Let me ask again a question about CPEB. Is there any music in the concertos or symphonies in the Sensitive style? I'm not so interested by his writing in Classical style. I'm not a great fan of classical style apart from Mozart and one or two things by Haydn.


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## Bulldog

Mandryka said:


> How's your back? Hope you're OK.
> 
> Yes Scarlatti and Gabrieli, how could I forget. I very much like Andrea Gabrieli,
> 
> Let me ask again a question about CPEB. Is there any music in the concertos or symphonies in the Sensitive style? I'm not so interested by his writing in Classical style. I'm not a great fan of classical style apart from Mozart and one or two things by Haydn.


I've not heard the term "Sensitive style" before. What does it mean?


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## Mandryka

Bulldog said:


> I've not heard the term "Sensitive style" before. What does it mean?


The German is empfindsamer Stil -- there's a wikipedia article on it. CPEB wrote a group of keyboard pieces known as the music "für Kenner und Liebhaber", and they are in this distinctive style -- angular, dissonant, highly expressive, surprising mood changes. I love them, but I've been unable to find other music by him which is written in this way. So, quite honestly, all the concertos and symphonies I've heard haven't excited me half as much as the Kenner und Liebhaber music.

But he wrote a lot and I've hardly explored so I'm always hoping that someone who knows his output will put me on to something. So far, no joy. So my suspicion is that he had a brief period of flirting with an adventurous avant garde that led him to write some exciting music, and then he retreated to a much more mainstream gallant style of composing, which doesn't interest me at all.

Some people feel the inverse, they like the conventional stuff more than the quirky, they say that the Kenner und Liebhaber music is too disturbing and strange. Of course.


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## Bulldog

Mandryka:

Thanks for the feedback. I also favor CPE's more angular and quirky side; main reason I prefer him to JC.


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## Lord Lance

Mandryka said:


> How's your back? Hope you're OK.
> 
> Yes Scarlatti and Gabrieli, how could I forget. I very much like Andrea Gabrieli,
> 
> Let me ask again a question about CPEB. Is there any music in the concertos or symphonies in the Sensitive style? I'm not so interested by his writing in Classical style. I'm not a great fan of classical style apart from Mozart and one or two things by Haydn.


CPE Bach was a court musician of Fredrick The Great - an extremely talented transverse flautist. CPE Bach's output for transverse flute concertos are exciting and will probably be enjoyable for you.

Also, classical music is filled with different styles. You should research on composers who never achieved mainstream success.

Here's another oddity: I love Haydn's music and symphonies more than Mozart despite the latter's greater genius. Is there any explanation for this?


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## Lord Lance

Mandryka said:


> JC I don't know. I think that CPE is more than well written and impressive when he writes in the sensitive style.


No argument there. CPE Bach was a superior composer than his father is many aspects. Not to mention, not everyone can agree with JS Bach's dense writing style that can be severely off-putting to the untrained ear..



Mandryka said:


> The problem is that, as far as I know, he only uses it in some keyboard sonatas. Is that right?


Not at all.








Mandryka said:


> The concertos and symphonies are workmanlike as far as I have heard.


Not right again.






The works aren't "workmanlike". The least you can do for a person of CPE Bach's calibre is not write off his works like "workmanlike". I am sure after hearing these works you will find at least a tad bit of love. Revist these works after several years or months and try again. Opinions change drastically. Examples from my own personal experience include: I. J.S. Bach, II. Mozart, III. Brahms, IV. Rachmaninoff



Mandryka said:


> WF wrote some fine polonaises but everything else I've heard has been less striking.


WF Bach lived an undistinguished career, died in poverty and has been lost to posterity. The most we've reached is CPE, not even JC. WF will never be taken all that seriously. One has to excavate through all his mediocre or rather undistinguished works to come across a few gems. But, he did have some.


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## Mandryka

Ludwig van Beethoven said:


> No argument there. CPE Bach was a superior composer than his father is many aspects. Not to mention, not everyone can agree with JS Bach's dense writing style that can be severely off-putting to the untrained ear..
> 
> Not at all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not right again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The works aren't "workmanlike". The least you can do for a person of CPE Bach's calibre is not write off his works like "workmanlike". I am sure after hearing these works you will find at least a tad bit of love. Revist these works after several years or months and try again. Opinions change drastically. Examples from my own personal experience include: I. J.S. Bach, II. Mozart, III. Brahms, IV. Rachmaninoff
> 
> WF Bach lived an undistinguished career, died in poverty and has been lost to posterity. The most we've reached is CPE, not even JC. WF will never be taken all that seriously. One has to excavate through all his mediocre or rather undistinguished works to come across a few gems. But, he did have some.


Ah I see the problem. I should have said that as far as I see he only uses sensitive style in a some solo keyboard music. Your youtube link points to some solo keyboard music - was that a mistake? What I really want is an example in a concerto or a duo or something.


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## Bulldog

Ludwig van Beethoven said:


> No argument there. CPE Bach was a superior composer than his father is many aspects.


That's an unusual comment. Could you elaborate on those aspects?


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## Ukko

Hah. I think he means that CPE was closer in style than his dad to Beethoven.


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## Lord Lance

Bulldog said:


> That's an unusual comment. Could you elaborate on those aspects?


Not really. Such comments only incite hatred by readers. I certainly relish CPE's music more than his father. Although, I think that may have more to do with accessibility of CPE Bach's music. If you disagree, that's fine.


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