# Dvorak's 7th and Brahms



## Manuel

It's quite accepted that in his seventh symphony Dvorak resembles Brahms' symphonic writing (even tough the Scherzo sounds more Brucknerian to me).
As you know, Dvorak follows Haydn in working with music cells, and the one that builds the first movement is exposed by the low strings in the first bars, right after the timpani introduction. The motif is quickly developed and played by the full orchestra, and after two or three minutes comes a variation of it played by the flute (then taken by the strings in full Brahmsian style). This is my question, as the theme played by the flute is very much the same that opens the second movement in Brahms' double concerto. Do you think Dvorak did that on purpose, quoting a motif as he knew he was also following his style? Or this is just a coincidence?


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## Manuel

Forget about this. I've just checked this through Google and Brahms wrote his Op.102 in 1887, and Dvorak composed his symphony in 1883-4 (He had Brahms third in mind). Anyway, it seems interesting that when ressembling Brahms, Dvorak quoted a motiv-to-be from him.


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## Kurkikohtaus

Or perhaps the other way around?

I say that tongue in cheek, one should not make too much of motives that resemble each other in the Classical / Romantic language. Everybody was influenced by everybody, and then there are only so many different motives one can write, it is often just a coincidence.


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## Manuel

Kurkikohtaus said:


> Or perhaps the other way around?
> 
> I say that tongue in cheek, one should not make too much of motives that resemble each other in the Classical / Romantic language. Everybody was influenced by everybody, and then there are only so many different motives one can write, it is often just a coincidence.


I agree in this Dvorak-Brahms case the similarity it's purely coincidential; but there are pieces in which composers are quoted as an hommage to their work, as a recognition. This would be the case, IMO, of Beethoven quoting Bach in his Tempest sonata; Berg quoting a Bach chorale in his violin concerto... and many more.
Discovering this type of things surely adds enjoyment to my listening of music.


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## terotero

As strange as it may sound but I think Dvorak follows more of Beethoven than Brahms or Bruckner.


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## Manuel

terotero said:


> As strange as it may sound but I think Dvorak follows more of Beethoven than Brahms or Bruckner.


Perhaps that's because Brahms and Bruckner were following Beethoven themselves*. So, those who follow both Brahms and Beethoven are getting a double dose of the Bonn maestro.

*The opening of Beethoven's Ninth, for example, had a heavy influence on Bruckner.


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## Kurkikohtaus

terotero said:


> ... I think Dvorak follows more of Beethoven than Brahms or Bruckner.


Dvořák, in his early Symphonies (1-5) was very much a Wagnerian. He then met Brahms and after the 6th symphony (1880) he never looked back, often citing Brahms as his main influence and greatest model.

So by his own reckoning, Dvořák was a Brahmsian.


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## Gustav

well, i would argue that Dvorak belong to the Wagnerian School than Brahms.


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## Manuel

Gustav said:


> well, i would argue that Dvorak belong to the Wagnerian School than Brahms.


Really? Why?


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## Oneiros

Manuel said:


> Perhaps that's because Brahms and Bruckner were following Beethoven themselves*. So, those who follow both Brahms and Beethoven are getting a double dose of the Bonn maestro.
> 
> *The opening of Beethoven's Ninth, for example, had a heavy influence on Bruckner.


Come to think of it, are there any Romantic symphonists that _weren't_ following the tempestuous giant from Bonn? Even Brahms' opponents in aesthetics (Liszt and Wagner) were influenced by Beethoven, only in a different manner. They took the same source and reacted differently to it.


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## Gustav

Oneiros said:


> Come to think of it, are there any Romantic symphonists that _weren't_ following the tempestuous giant from Bonn? Even Brahms' opponents in aesthetics (Liszt and Wagner) were influenced by Beethoven, only in a different manner. They took the same source and reacted differently to it.


indeed, hard to shake off the influence of Beethoven if you are an Austro-german composer in the late romantic time.


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## haziz

Gustav said:


> well, i would argue that Dvorak belong to the Wagnerian School than Brahms.


I have always been slightly baffled by these statements. Dvorak is one of my absolute favorite composers (ranking just behind Tchaikovsky and Beethoven). Of course I am hampered by a dislike for Opera, and therefore my perusal of Wagner has been much more superficial, consisting mainly of a few discs of "Wagner Without Words" but he has always come across much more negatively. Wagner has never appealed to me in my admittedly limited exposure to his music. Of course this is coming from someone with many years of listening to classical music, but no music training background and therefore a very superficial understanding of music theory. The dislike for opera (by anybody, including Dvorak) does not help.


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## ORigel

haziz said:


> I have always been slightly baffled by these statements. Dvorak is one of my absolute favorite composers (ranking just behind Tchaikovsky and Beethoven). Of course I am hampered by a dislike for Opera, and therefore my perusal of Wagner has been much more superficial, consisting mainly of a few discs of "Wagner Without Words" but he has always come across much more negatively. Wagner has never appealed to me in my admittedly limited exposure to his music. Of course this is coming from someone with many years of listening to classical music, but no music training background and therefore a very superficial understanding of music theory. The dislike for opera (by anybody, including Dvorak) does not help.


Wikipedia says:
"Many of Dvořák's early works seem to have Wagnerian influences, but th[e Symphony no. 3 in E flat major] is widely considered to be the most Wagnerian of them all. Throughout the symphony his use of harp is particularly Wagnerian. The influence of Wagner is particularly notable in the second movement, where Dvořák seems to allude to motifs from Wagner's Ring Cycle, as well as using harmonies and orchestrations in the style of Wagner, particularly in the strings, harp, and brass.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._3_(Dvořák)

I quote Wikipedia because I've listened to Dvorak's Third, not Wagner.


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## Kreisler jr

The slow movement? of the 4th symphony sounds supiciously close to the Tannhäuser ouverture and these comments about the 3rd might also be correct but overall I think that the Mendelssohn-Schumann-Brahms-tradition had a stronger influence on Dvorak than Wagner.


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## dko22

Dvorak's 6th and 7th were obviously strongly influenced by Brahms -- in fact I sometimes get the finale of Brahms 2 mixed up with Dvorak 6 as they are so similar and in the same key. In early symphonies probably more is Schubertian in 1 and 2 anyway, not least the "heavenly length" which later was a primary influence on Bruckner. No 3, in some ways my favourite of the symphonies, does sound more like Wagner than any others. I though the slow movement was actually more based on the Eroica (as were a lot of others) though undoubtedly garbed in Wagnerian colours. The last two symphonies mark a quite abrupt move towards a completely individual style which really resembles no-one else.


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## haziz

dko22 said:


> Dvorak's 6th and 7th were obviously strongly influenced by Brahms -- in fact I sometimes get the finale of Brahms 2 mixed up with Dvorak 6 as they are so similar and in the same key. In early symphonies probably more is Schubertian in 1 and 2 anyway, not least the "heavenly length" which later was a primary influence on Bruckner. No 3, in some ways my favourite of the symphonies, does sound more like Wagner than any others. I though the slow movement was actually more based on the Eroica (as were a lot of others) though undoubtedly garbed in Wagnerian colours. The last two symphonies mark a quite abrupt move towards a completely individual style which really resembles no-one else.



It is also possible some of the influence went the other way. Dvorak's earlier symphonies (certainly Nos. 5 and earlier) were written before Brahms ever completed his first symphony.


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## Kreisler jr

AFAIK a lot of early Dvorak wasn't published until much later. Thus the confusion with the 9th symphony being labeled "5th" until far into the 20th century. Brahms liked Dvorak's music and supported him but I don't think there was much influence. Brahms had the occasional "folksy" theme early on (and then usually hungarian/gypsy, not bohemian).


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## dko22

Brahms discovered Dvorak in 1874 when sitting on the Austrian State Stipendium jury. The large number of works submitted included two symphonies which must have been 3 and 4, I think. At this stage 5 had not yet been written, 1 was lost and no.2 was likely impounded as he didn't have enough money to pay the binder! I share Kreisler jr 's scepticism that at this stage, Dvorak would have influenced Brahms though I wouldn't rule it out for later on. It is clear, though, that Dvorak 6 for instance was written after and in response to Brahms 2 (though supposedly the Eroica was also a model).


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## Kreisler jr

dko22 said:


> Brahms discovered Dvorak in 1874 when sitting on the Austrian State Stipendium jury. The large number of works submitted included two symphonies which must have been 3 and 4, I think.


Thanks, I was not aware of the precise chronology.



> I share Kreisler jr 's scepticism that at this stage, Dvorak would have influenced Brahms though I wouldn't rule it out for later on.


I remain doubtful; Brahms was a generous supporter of Dvorak although he cannot have been too fond of the "loose" structure of early Dvorak. As Brahms got ever more self-critical and perfectionist as he aged, I don't think there was much he could (or wanted to) learn from Dvorak. He probably rather went through another volume of Bach or Schütz instead...



> It is clear, though, that Dvorak 6 for instance was written after and in response to Brahms 2


yes, the thematic and "mood" similarities in the outer movements are fairly obvious, the 3rd movement is quite "pure Dvorak", though, I think.


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