# Hypothetical Scenarios



## MagneticGhost (Apr 7, 2013)

We all like to think about What if's
My personal favourite is 'Imagine if Schubert had lived for another 10 years' I have a feeling that he would have cemented his position as a complete Master of his Art. And would be freely spoken of in the same breath as Beethoven, Bach and Mozart.

What hypothetical scenarios do you find yourself thinking about?
Is it at all helpful to think about such things though?
If it is helpful - Why?
If it isn't - Why Not?


----------



## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I think many including myself have thought about scenarios where Schubert or Mozart lived longer. The amount of wonderful music added to what we already have would be interesting and, for me, wonderful. I think most view it as a fun little game. How would Mozart have changed the course of music? What would Schubert's concertos have sounded like?

I'm not sure how helpful those hypothetical scenarios are. We imagine what we wish, but those scenarios are simply fantasies. Perhaps some musicologists could use the challenge to practice thinking about the impact of composers and music, but for the rest of us, they're just fun.


----------



## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

The most outstanding example is of course Mozart. If he lived even for another "few years" let alone to what the life expectancy was then. More operas, more concertos, symphonies and he would have stepped into early Romanticism. But at least we can say his vast output was already on par with normal composers of the period who had a normal life span.


----------



## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Yes, I play what if Beethoven had not lost his hearing? I think perhaps his music would have taken on a completely different aspect, maybe one not quite as innovative. 

But then I'm thankfully aware it's probably not a good idea to gouge my eyes out to further a painting career.


----------



## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

MagneticGhost said:


> I have a feeling that he would have cemented his position as a complete Master of his Art. And would be freely spoken of in the same breath as Beethoven, Bach and Mozart.


Like and agree, although he's already there for me. And yes, a concerto or 15 would have been lovely. Plus, the direction he was going with his symphonies, quartets, and piano sonatas was exciting. Then again, and I'll put this in bold, *experts have said that the quality of his late works were a DIRECT result of him living on limited time. *And so went the last 20 months of his life, writing like a man possessed, who knew the end was near and his time was limited.

I'd also like to think what Mendelssohn would have accomplished had he focused more on his own music, and not the music of others. And to top it all off, I dearly wish Haydn would have ventured into the symphonic forum. Can you imagine? Man, that would have been awesome. :lol:


----------



## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

ArtMusic said:


> The most outstanding example is of course Mozart. If he lived even for another "few years" let alone to what the life expectancy was then. More operas, more concertos, symphonies and he would have stepped into early Romanticism. But at least we can say his vast output was already on par with normal composers of the period who had a normal life span.


I'd say his output exceeded all but a handful of his peers.


----------



## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

It's fun to think about. If I could give one composer who died young a full life, it would be Schubert. No disrespect to Mozart, but seeing what Schubert would have been writing in the 1870s would really be something.


----------



## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

I know Beethoven had already lived a good life, but really, think how innovative he was!
Who knows what he would have done after the Grosse Fuge, the 9th Symphony....


----------



## MagneticGhost (Apr 7, 2013)

I often wonder as well - if Rachmaninov hadn't been forced to flee Russia and virtually give up composing to earn a living as a concert pianist. Just wonder where his music would have gone. There are some stunning jewels in those last few works. I would have liked to have some more.

re. Mozart's early death - when I listen to his music - I feel that we've had the best of him. He packed his whole life into those short years.

with Schubert - I feel there was so much more to come. Especially in his symphonic writing. He only really got going at No.8.


----------



## Pyotr (Feb 26, 2013)

I sometimes dream what great works we would have if Haydn and Mozart wrote as much music for ballet as they did for opera.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

MagneticGhost said:


> We all like to think about What if's
> My personal favourite is 'Imagine if Schubert had lived for another 10 years' I have a feeling that he would have cemented his position as a complete Master of his Art. And would be freely spoken of in the same breath as Beethoven, Bach and Mozart.


That is fine, if you ignore he was ailing, along with other things, syphilis in something past its first stage of progress at least, and with no real cure available then, could have ended up mentally impaired or slightly mad, written nothing, or the same degeneration would have shown up in what he did write, etc. -- and that is just one kind of trouble to be found in any and all such hypothetical conjectures.


----------



## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

What if Clara Schumann had married Beethoven instead? Hmm...


----------



## MagneticGhost (Apr 7, 2013)

PetrB said:


> That is fine, if you ignore he was ailing, along with other things, syphilis in something past its first stage of progress at least, and with no real cure available then, could have ended up mentally impaired or slightly mad, written nothing, or the same degeneration would have shown up in what he did write, etc. -- and that is just one kind of trouble to be found in any and all such hypothetical conjectures.


Do you not play games on Planet Vulcan? 
Obviously I've cured his syphilis at the same time as giving him those 10 years!!


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

MagneticGhost said:


> Do you not play games on Planet Vulcan?
> Obviously I've cured his syphilis at the same time as giving him those 10 years!!


Yes, and obviously whatever damage his disease had done to that point didn't affect his composing, given the works of his last year or two! Some penicillin ought to do the trick nicely.


----------



## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

MagneticGhost said:


> Especially in his symphonic writing. He only really got going at No.8.


I'd say the 5th and maybe even the 4th and 3rd are masterpieces.


----------



## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

MagneticGhost said:


> 'Imagine if Schubert had lived for another 10 years' I have a feeling that he would have cemented his position as a complete Master of his Art. And would be freely spoken of in the same breath as Beethoven, Bach and Mozart.





scratchgolf said:


> Like and agree, although he's already there for me.


Sorry, scratchgolf, I'm gonna have to disagree. Not only is he already there for you, he's already there, _period_! End of story. 



MoonlightSonata said:


> I know Beethoven had already lived a good life, but really, think how innovative he was!
> Who knows what he would have done after the Grosse Fuge, the 9th Symphony....


Yup, I mean, the Grosse Fuge, the 9th Symphony, the 32nd Piano Sonata, the Late Quartets (and so many other works), etc. All of them revolutionary. I can only imagine had he lived another 15-20 years. Yowza!

I ask myself, what direction would he have taken his music? Would have regressed into conservatism with old age? Gone more radical than he already was? Would Saint-Saens have even considered it "music"? :lol: So many hypothetical questions!


----------



## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

DiesIraeVIX said:


> Yup, I mean, the Grosse Fuge, the 9th Symphony, the 32nd Piano Sonata, the Late Quartets (and so many other works), etc. All of them revolutionary. I can only imagine had he lived another 15-20 years. Yowza!
> 
> I ask myself, what direction would he have taken his music? Would have regressed into conservatism with old age? Gone more radical than he already was? Would Saint-Saens have even considered it "music"? :lol: So many hypothetical questions!


If Beethoven had lived 15-20 more years, what would he have thought of Wagner (assuming he could hear from the score, that is)? What about Chopin? Liszt? Would they have influenced him? Would he have written music of a style that would otherwise not be used until the 20th century?

So many questions


----------



## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

MagneticGhost said:


> re. Mozart's early death - when I listen to his music - I feel that we've had the best of him. He packed his whole life into those short years.


Huh...?

15 characters, because my expression of utter disbelief wasn't the requisite length for a reply.


----------



## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

trazom said:


> Huh...?


Now you understand exactly how I feel about Leonard Bernstein's views on Mahler.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

DiesIraeVIX said:


> Yup, I mean, the Grosse Fuge, the 9th Symphony, the 32nd Piano Sonata, the Late Quartets (and so many other works), etc. All of them revolutionary. I can only imagine had he lived another 15-20 years. Yowza!


Beethoven died at 56. Not old, even for those days! What he might have done had he lived is not really imaginable. Who could have imagined, in advance, what he *did* do in his last years?


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Conjecture is the big what if with no real answers. It is a kind of fun to suppose, project, but it is also a mental onanism, i.e. pleasurable with no real issue.


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

PetrB said:


> Conjecture is the big what if with no real answers. It is a kind of fun to suppose, project, but it is also a mental onanism, i.e. pleasurable with no real issue.


Oh, good, you've judged the thread for us. Someone might almost have been going to have "a kind of fun" without any self-consciousness about their "onanism." If only we could participate in discussions you found worthwhile. Alas, poor mortals as we are.


----------



## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

My hypothetical scenario: everyone on TC decides to get along, be nice, stop trolling, end their feuds, and make the forum a nice place for everyone.
I know, I have an overactive imagination.


----------



## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

What if Beethoven had developed and championed the 12-tone system?


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

PetrB said:


> Conjecture is the big what if with no real answers. It is a kind of fun to suppose, project, but it is also a mental onanism, i.e. pleasurable with no real issue.


Damn. My mind was just about to onanize.


----------



## MagneticGhost (Apr 7, 2013)

trazom said:


> Huh...?
> 
> 15 characters, because my expression of utter disbelief wasn't the requisite length for a reply.


It was meant as a compliment!!
I'm saying it is all so good how can it get any better.
How can that deserve a huh?!


----------



## pianississimo (Nov 24, 2014)

Franz Liszt was a legend whose powers as an instrumentalist we have to take on trust. He died in 1886 but the player piano, which appeared in 1876 wasn't fully developed until after his death.
Just a little earlier and perhaps he could have made a few rolls to give us an idea what he could really do.


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I sometimes wish Mahler had found time to wrote some SQs or other chamber works. He often laid his soul bare in the symphonies and songs so it's quite tantalising for me to speculate on what he might have done with this medium, especially in his later years. From that timeframe, c. 1904-1911, perhaps the closest we've got from Austria-Germany is some of Reger's more intense chamber output (Reger being someone else who died far too early).


----------



## Skilmarilion (Apr 6, 2013)

MagneticGhost said:


> My personal favourite is 'Imagine if Schubert had lived for another 10 years' I have a feeling that he would have cemented his position as a complete Master of his Art.


Well the miracle of Schubert is that he didn't need even one additional year to cement that. :tiphat:


----------



## Gaspard de la Nuit (Oct 20, 2014)

- If Wagner had gone on to write symphonies or had moved to Minnesota like he had planned.

- If Ravel had been able to spend more time without his injury/ neurological abnormality.

- If Stravinsky gave up composing and devoted himself to some weird hobby I feel pretty certain he had but don't actually remember reading about.

- If people were selected to receive musical education on the basis of their natal astrology charts and not what kind of family they are born into/ what kind of upbringing they have, which is how it usually is. Oh, I mean "show talent".


----------



## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

PetrB said:


> Conjecture is the big what if with no real answers. It is a kind of fun to suppose, project, but it is also a mental onanism, i.e. pleasurable with no real issue.


Not that I know this from experience or anything, but I think if one is not going to join the circle, it is kind of creepy to stand there and watch. 

On the other hand, your point about Schubert and syphilis was well taken.

As for Rachmaninoff - I'm not sure his later works have any direct line from the earlier ones. The direction he was going in 1916 and 1917 does not seem to point to the Third Symphony or the Paganini Rhapsody, but somewhere more mysterious. My hypothetical is that he continued in that direction.


----------



## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

Yes, if Schubert had lived another ten years. The obvious wish.
I sometimes wonder; what if Mozart had heard _Eroica_? He'd have been 48... Haydn never wrote a symphony after _Eroica_ was published. What would Mozart have done?

How good were all those works that Brahms destroyed?

Why did Sibelius have to destroy his 8th?

cheers,
GG


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Imagine if Wagner lived another 10 years and added three sequel operas to the Ring.

On the other hand....I'd rather not.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Gaspard de la Nuit said:


> - If Wagner had gone on to write symphonies or had moved to Minnesota like he had planned.
> 
> - If Ravel had been able to spend more time without his injury/ neurological abnormality.
> 
> ...


Next opera by John Adams: _Wagner in Minnesota_.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

EdwardBast said:


> Not that I know this from experience or anything, but I think if one is not going to join the circle, it is kind of creepy to stand there and watch.
> 
> On the other hand, your point about Schubert and syphilis was well taken.
> 
> As for Rachmaninoff - I'm not sure his later works have any direct line from the earlier ones. The direction he was going in 1916 and 1917 does not seem to point to the Third Symphony or the Paganini Rhapsody, but somewhere more mysterious. My hypothetical is that he continued in that direction.


I agree with your hypothetical on Rachmaninov -- those last (orchestral) Symphonic dances are somewhat more of an abstraction, seeming more 'about music' to me, and 'interior' than that more 'immediate' expression he is most known and liked for. His formidable contrapuntal skill was never really wholly absent from about everything he wrote, that of course, used to his own purposes.

The 'tendency' of many a composer who continues through a decent longevity seems often to be one of a kind of distilling, refinement, reduction, and needing less and less material (often the instrumental forces get similarly distilled) to say as much and more.

So... and... but who knows? ;-)


----------

