# Mahler's Symphonies: Long Winded::Epic::Mixed



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Which of the above adjectives best fits your conception of Mahler's symphonies? I'm not ready to provide my response yet, due to not enough exposure and not having listened to him for some time.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Depends on the performance.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Depends on the performance.


Go into depth!  Which performances are epic/boring for you and why?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Based on 30+ years of listening: epic, for sure. Even my least favourite (the 8th) is a fantastic listening experience.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Go into depth!  Which performances are epic/boring for you and why?


That would take awhile. (See my post entitled "50 Greatest Mahler Symphony Recordings")

The ones that are epic are the ones that sustain interest throughout as opposed to the ones that don't. To sustain interest the conductor has to know what he is doing. He has to know the work thoroughly, all the peaks and valleys. Essentially, it is his JOB as a conductor to sustain interest. Some of the best Mahler conductors are Barbirolli, Horenstein, Walter, Klemperer, Bernstein, and Kubelik.

The ones who don't get it are the ones who focus on the superficial aspects - sound quality, mechanical execution, or basic tempo - as opposed to the fundamental task of telling the story of the work. If you don't understand the work, then it doesn't matter how loud, fast, or perfectly you play. It's going to be boring.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Long-winded: not for me or people who have good attention spans. Good performances help. That's why I find Klemperer's 7th godawful. 

Epic: what's "epic" mean? By my definition, yes, all of the Mahler symphonies, Das Lied, and Klagende Lied are all Epic.

Great music cannot and should not be measured by its time scale. The real question is: does the composer fill that time with material that is interesting, captivates the ear, and provides food for the soul? If they can then the length of the work becomes irrelevant to me. An 80 minute Mahler symphony never outstays its welcome. There are 40 minutes symphonies that really try my patience. Die Meistersinger is enthralling - all five hours of it. A two hour Traviata bores me within the first 15 minutes.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> That would take awhile. (See my post entitled "50 Greatest Mahler Symphony Recordings")
> 
> The ones that are epic are the ones that sustain interest throughout as opposed to the ones that don't. To sustain interest the conductor has to know what he is doing. He has to know the work thoroughly, all the peaks and valleys. Essentially, it is his JOB as a conductor to sustain interest. Some of the best Mahler conductors are Barbirolli, Horenstein, Walter, Klemperer, Bernstein, and Kubelik.
> 
> The ones who don't get it are the ones who focus on the superficial aspects - sound quality, mechanical execution, or basic tempo - as opposed to the fundamental task of telling the story of the work. If you don't understand the work, then it doesn't matter how loud, fast, or perfectly you play. It's going to be boring.


On the flip side, should Chopin be deeply touching? The point you are getting at is, the interpretation must have depth!


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## 1996D (Dec 18, 2018)

I would say that 1 to 4 are long and too simple, more of a tribute by Mahler to the music of the past, while 5 to 10 and Das Lied von der Erde are the true masterpieces. I would group the 1rst with the 3rd and 4th - the 2nd with the 8th (the latter being the improved version) - the 5th, 6th, and 7th as his attainment of mastery - and Das Lied with the 9th and 10th.

Towards the end Mahler grew tremendously as a composer, his counterpoint going from below average to the very best.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

Entirely Epic:angel:

'Das Lied' should have been re-orchestrated by Anton Webern, the music is too modern for the notes.
I don't count the 10th.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

mbhaub said:


> Long-winded: not for me or people who have good attention spans. Good performances help. That's why I find Klemperer's 7th godawful.
> 
> The real question is: does the composer fill that time with material that is interesting, captivates the ear, and provides food for the soul? If they can then the length of the work becomes irrelevant to me.


You just summarized exactly why I LIKE the Klemperer 7th. It is the only recording of the work that really does it for me, that delves into the work thoroughly and makes something of every phrase. By your own reasoning I cannot see why you call it godawful. Does this mean I have a "bad" attention span? I guess I should feel ashamed for myself then.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

I agree with the post above mine (if it still is when I'm finished...#8). Mahler is mixed for me.

I have sometimes grown tired during listening because it can feel that he just doesn't know when to stop. Not suggesting things to you, or giving you a good dose, but saturating you. All of that 'you need to get the story' has something in it, but not that much. Music _can_ also be measured by its time scale at some point. Some things are ridiculously short, some are overlong and press their point too relentlessly.

Nevertheless I listened to Mahler's fifth and sixth several times each a week or two ago and didn't have the usual feeling of neck-ache. It felt right that the movements were as long as they are to develop everything. This doesn't happen to me often with Mahler. I still don't like his first symphony, it sounds disjointed and random, as if the manuscript sheets have been dropped and picked up again in the wrong order.

The man sure had a mastery of counterpoint though. On an astonishing scale.

Epic? Yes.


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

The only long winded Mahler is that secret Maximiliano Cobra recording waiting to emerge from the depths of hell to torment us all.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

long-winded, meandering, incoherent stream of consciousness. Full of bombast, funeral marches. A decadent late-romantism.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

A choral conductor I know once introduced a Bruckner motet to his audience and stated that, “Bruckner wrote these really long symphonies which for some of us are just over our heads.” He later admitted to me that he is bored by Bruckner symphonies.

I always found it very mature of him to admit in his remarks that we all hear things differently, and rather than imply there is something wrong with those who hear it oppositely to state that they hear something that eludes his grasp. That is so much more mature, not to mention accurate, then it would have been to demean those who appreciate works he finds boring.

Ironically I only came to appreciate Mahler in recent years. It has always been a bit of unfinished business for me. I thought of the symphonies as meandering, not something you can easily grasp or hum along with. Then finally I grew the patience to let it all sink in, and now he is right up there with Beethoven and Brahms in my affections.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

NLAdriaan said:


> Entirely Epic:angel:
> 
> 'Das Lied' should have been re-orchestrated by Anton Webern, the music is too modern for the notes.
> I don't count the 10th.


Schoenberg reorchestrated Das Lied, a chamber version. Worth hearing. Will that do?









I'll echo the "entirely epic" sentiment, in my case for all the other ten Symphonies.....and put in an angel too :angel:


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I'm listening to the 4th now; I'm enjoying the flow of it quite a bit! He keeps my interest. (Bernstein:NYP)


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## MrMeatScience (Feb 15, 2015)

Entirely epic, when treated right. There are bad performances that can make them feel overlong, but with a skilled conductor and committed orchestra, the music makes perfect sense. I will admit to struggling with 8 more than the others though, especially the second part -- but I don't think it's a fault of the work (it would certainly help to know German well enough to follow along without reading -- my German is a bit weak for that).


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

CnC Bartok said:


> Schoenberg reorchestrated Das Lied, a chamber version. Worth hearing. Will that do?


Thanks for sharing! I know the Herreweghe interpretation. It however remains pretty close to the full orchestral version, Mahler was too much of a Saint to Schoenberg, I guess. A more liberal chamber/modern orchestration would brake Das Lied free from its chains. Like Luciano Berio orchestrated the Folk Songs.

Drunkard in spring and Farewell from Das Lied were Jazzed/'Klezmerred' up by Uri Caine, quite interesting actually. Do you know it?


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Epic, like great landscapes. My only criticism is that sometimes they are not cohesive, they kind of ramble and wander, and the internal ideas seem unrelated to each other. This is not helped by the fact that Mahler was a "modular" thinker, where sometimes it sounds like chamber music in sections, then goes full bore. Lots of contrasts. Maybe this was caused by the interruptions, he was so busy all the time conducting the opera.


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## Totenfeier (Mar 11, 2016)

millionrainbows said:


> Epic, like great landscapes. My only criticism is that sometimes they are not cohesive, they kind of ramble and wander, and the internal ideas seem unrelated to each other. This is not helped by the fact that Mahler was a "modular" thinker, where sometimes it sounds like chamber music in sections, then goes full bore. Lots of contrasts. Maybe this was caused by the interruptions, he was so busy all the time conducting the opera.


Very well put, and double ditto for me, especially your note on the chamber music quality. He can splash paint on 1,000 foot canvases with frenzied abandon; the next minute, he's a delicate miniaturist - only three instruments can mesmerize with an intimate conversation (viz., the middle of the 3rd movement of the 4th - the slow, sinuous dance of horn, oboe and cor anglais). You have to _want_ to be ready for _anything_ to happen, because it probably will - "A symphony must be like the world" (messy, tedious, horrific, mellow, sorrowful, joyful and astoundingly random).


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

mbhaub said:


> Long-winded: not for me or people who have good attention spans. Good performances help. That's why I find Klemperer's 7th godawful.
> 
> Epic: what's "epic" mean? By my definition, yes, all of the Mahler symphonies, Das Lied, and Klagende Lied are all Epic.
> 
> Great music cannot and should not be measured by its time scale. The real question is: does the composer fill that time with material that is interesting, captivates the ear, and provides food for the soul? If they can then the length of the work becomes irrelevant to me. An 80 minute Mahler symphony never outstays its welcome. There are 40 minutes symphonies that really try my patience. *Die Meistersinger is enthralling - all five hours of it. A two hour Traviata bores me within the first 15 minutes*.


funny - i am the other way round with these operas!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Mahler wrote long winded epics which I have come to enjoy.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

If you want a good sounding recording for each symphony to start off with that also makes a good case for the symphony, I suggest:

1 - Barbirolli
2 - Mehta
3 - Bernstein (Sony)
4 - Horenstein
5 - Barbirolli
6 - Bernstein (DG) *or* Barbirolli
7 - Abbado *or* Klemperer
8 - Bernstein (DG)
9 - Karajan (live 1982)

I like the Barbirolli 6th and Klemperer 7th best of all, but I also recognize that the tempos are slower than what people consider conventional, so you may want to go with Bernstein and Abbado instead.

The Solti 8th is probably the most often recommended, but I don't think it's the one to make people love the work. It blazes, it impresses, yes, but I think Bernstein creates more consistent, sustained interest.

I think long-term that Barbirolli gets to the heart of the 9th more than Karajan, but learning the work with the latter's recording you cannot go wrong. It makes a great first impression.

Szell is a much-recommended 4th, but again I think in this case Horenstein makes you love the work. Szell is just a bit too mechanical for me, though the 4th movement soloist is very good.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

NLAdriaan said:


> Entirely Epic:angel:
> 
> 'Das Lied' should have been re-orchestrated by Anton Webern, the music is too modern for the notes.
> I don't count the 10th.


the orchestration for DLvDE is exquisite!! by that point in Mahler's career, he really had the orchestration down - Sym #9 is superbly orchestrated as well - remarkable clarity, even in the loud parts [given a good performance, of course]


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

For Das Lied von der Erde I would recommend starting off with the Kubelik on Audite, with Janet Baker and Waldemar Kmentt. 

I know the Ludwig/Wunderlich/Klemperer is popular. For me it is not quite as engrossing interpretively even though wonderful sounding.

Best of all of course is Ferrier/Patzak/Walter, but the older sound quality and Ferrier's fluttery tone is not for everyone. I love it.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Jacck said:


> long-winded, meandering, incoherent stream of consciousness. Full of bombast, funeral marches. A decadent late-romantism.


One of the greatest melodists and orchestrators of all time. His music is highly personal, often introspective, and capable of expressing a heavenly bliss and amazing serenity that he patented in his Adagios. While there may have been self-doubts in his personal life, there was absolutely no doubt in his music. He wrote exactly what he meant and his music is sensitive, inspired, and masterful. His symphonies are second only to Beethoven, IMO... Performances can vary tremendously. But the shortsighted and inexperienced listeners never catch on to that, and it's their loss. If they are unable to tell the difference between a good or a bad performance, they may turn into tireless critics rather than looking for a deeper understanding or a better recording that works. (The search is part of the experience.) Bernstein's recording of the 7th on Sony never hung together or worked for me, but Michael Tilson Thomas's 7th with the LSO seemed to illuminate everything and all the various parts of this complex symphony were integrated beautifully together... Mahler dealt with virtually everything important in life from the creation of the world... to love... to loss... to death. Funerals can be heard in his music starting with that six of his siblings died when he was young, and then the death of his daughter. That's what great composers do. Their music is sometimes a deep reflection of life, and he never lost his creative inspiration to the very end. His 10th Symphony is prophetic and looks to the future both harmonically and melodically. But if someone can't sit still for more than an hour, he's probably not the composer for them because Mahler is taking all the time he needs to fit everything into his abbreviated life.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> You just summarized exactly why I LIKE the Klemperer 7th. It is the only recording of the work that really does it for me, that delves into the work thoroughly and makes something of every phrase. By your own reasoning I cannot see why you call it godawful. Does this mean I have a "bad" attention span? I guess I should feel ashamed for myself then.


No, your attention span is your own. The recording (esp the outer movements) are too slow and rob the music of forward thrust and energy. I know there are a lot of people who like it, but I lose interest and patience. I used to have a snarky way of evaluating Mahler symphony recordings: if it takes more than one cd, it's too long, with the understandable exception of M3. But every other Mahler symphony can be put on one cd - and many of them are top-notch versions. Even Klemperer's M2, M9 and DLVDE fit on one cd. But not the 7th - because it's too sloooooooooow.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I would like to have heard what Klemperer would have done with the 7th had he recorded it 5-10 years earlier. Even more, I would love to have heard Barbirolli's scheduled recording of the 7th with the Berlin Philharmonic ... unfortunately


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I've always liked "Songs of a Wayfarer", and it's quoted in one of the symphonies.

Did Celibidache conduct any Mahler? That would be interesting for all of the "slow" fans. Or Klemperer.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> If you want a good sounding recording for each symphony to start off with that also makes a good case for the symphony, I suggest:
> 
> 1 - Barbirolli


Which recording?


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Heck148 said:


> the orchestration for DLvDE is exquisite!! by that point in Mahler's career, he really had the orchestration down - Sym #9 is superbly orchestrated as well - remarkable clarity, even in the loud parts [given a good performance, of course]


Couldn't agree more. And indeed Schoenberg's arrangement is pretty faithful to the original. It is emphatically not an improvement, but it helped, through his Verein für musikalische Privataufführungen, get the work heard with affordable forces, so deserves a hearing today, and to be acknowledged as worthwhile.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

mbhaub said:


> The recording (esp the outer movements) are too slow and rob the music of forward thrust and energy.


But again, doesn't your own reasoning apply? With Klemperer I get to relish the 7th, just like you describe here:

_The real question is: does the composer fill that time with material that is *interesting, captivates the ear, and provides food for the soul*? If they can then the *length of the work becomes irrelevant to me*._


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

millionrainbows said:


> I've always liked "Songs of a Wayfarer", and it's quoted in one of the symphonies.
> 
> Did Celibidache conduct any Mahler? That would be interesting for all of the "slow" fans. Or Klemperer.


There's a Celibidache Kindertotenlieder out there. I cannot comment further, having not heard it, but no doubt each song is over 20 minutes long....:lol: EDIT: overall about 29 minutes









Still, not doubt more listenable to than that Klemperer 7.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

wkasimer said:


> Which recording?


The commercial recording. Is there a live version somewhere?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

There are a lot of composers I consider long-winded, but Mahler sure isn't one of them.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

CnC Bartok said:


> There's a Celibidache Kindertotenlieder out there. I cannot comment further, having not heard it, but no doubt each song is over 20 minutes long....:lol: EDIT: overall about 29 minutes
> 
> View attachment 113412
> 
> ...


T-T-T-T-T-h-h-h-h-h-h-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-n-n-n-n-n-n-k-k-k-k-k-k-k-k-k-y-y-y-y-y-y-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-u-u-u-u-u-u-u-.....


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

millionrainbows said:


> T-T-T-T-T-h-h-h-h-h-h-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-n-n-n-n-n-n-k-k-k-k-k-k-k-k-k-y-y-y-y-y-y-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-u-u-u-u-u-u-u-.....


Form and melodic line impressively maintained, in spite of the leisurely tempo....:devil:


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

Heck148 said:


> the orchestration for DLvDE is exquisite!! by that point in Mahler's career, he really had the orchestration down - Sym #9 is superbly orchestrated as well - remarkable clarity, even in the loud parts [given a good performance, of course]


To me, Das Lied would have been ideal material for the second Viennese School to work with. If antibiotics would have been available in 1910-1911, Mahler likely could have lived longer. Just imagine Mahler would have gone through similar developments as Schonberg (from Gurrelieder to atonal small scale works). To me, Das Lied actually is a early transformation piece, a new building on an existing foundation. Mahler is in Symf 9 and Das Lied nearer to the turnaround then Schonberg, who still had to write Gurrelieder in 1911. Therefor, Das Lied would be well suited for a fresh revision. Boulez actually interpreted Mahler from a more modernist view, his readings are different from the traditional Mahler school. Good interpretation of Das Lied by Boulez! But always keep looking ahead, don't freeze with Klemperer, Barbirolli Listen to what HIP did for Bach. I can't stand a traditional Hohe Messe anymore.

But to everyone his own taste:tiphat:


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

NLAdriaan said:


> Mahler is in Symf 9 and Das Lied nearer to the turnaround then Schonberg, who still had to write Gurrelieder in 1911.


This is not correct, the majority of Gurrelieder was written from 1900 to 1903, it was only the last part which he did in 1910 (not 1911) by which time he had already written Erwartung amongst other pieces.

As to Mahler, so where does his 10th fit in?


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> The commercial recording. Is there a live version somewhere?


Two of them, with the Czech Philharmonic, and the NY Philharmonic.


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

I would say I'm mixed. The trouble with "epic" composers for me is that it's all for nought if I don't like the themes and motifs that comprise the structure. I find Wagner frustratingly long-winded and even boring at times, but every piece of thematic material he ever wrote is transcendentally beautiful to me, so I can put up with it. 

Mahler sounds to me like a great melodist, but I just don't respond emotionally the way the music clearly intends me to. When I do like the theme, like that of 9th's first movement, I'm enraptured. But when I don't, which is most often the case, I find myself feeling indifferent, never quite bored though. 

I also sometimes feel like his music dips into 4th, 5th, and even 6th acts at times. Like the music will rise from darkness and descend back again so many times in one movement that each instance starts to feel cheapened.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

Becca said:


> This is not correct, the majority of Gurrelieder was written from 1900 to 1903, it was only the last part which he did in 1910 (not 1911) by which time he had already written Erwartung amongst other pieces.
> 
> As to Mahler, so where does his 10th fit in?


You are absolutely right, I looked into all of this a bit more. I already knew Mahler and Schonberg were friends. But Mahler was also chairman and advocate of the Ansorge Verein, a Viennese society where Schonberg was thriving to fight musical conservatism and organise concerts for 'new' music. Alban Berg and Anton Webern were involved too, mainly as students of Schonberg.

Schonberg already composed quite some 'new' music in Mahlers day and Mahler was most supportive.

To return to Das Lied, it might be interesting to listen to Vier Lieder fur Gesang und Orchester op.22, published in 1916. Boulez recorded it beautifully. This piece can also be listened to as Das Lied von der Erde 2.0.

As both Mahler and Schonberg were fighting conservatism and both clearly were fighting to get their own music accepted, it would have been interesting to find out what Mahler would have done, if he was given more time. Would he also have radicalised? But anyhow, Mahler offered to us in my view already a prelude to modernism, starting with the 5th.

My view to the 10th is that I do not see this as a Mahler piece, just like the completed Final part of the 9th Bruckner.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Of the three words only epic works for me but it is hardly the word I would have chosen. I'm not sure what word would work better for all his work but sublime certainly belongs there. 

To those who are thinking that Mahler is dull or even mixed I suggest perseverance. I was once in the mixed camp and would even have considered dull for a few works. But I always really liked some Mahler. But he has risen and risen in my estimation. Some of his apparently incoherent and messy works have turned out to be incredible masterpieces for me. Part of this has been the insights that some of the more recent recordings (post-1980s!) have brought.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

_"... it would have been interesting to find out what Mahler would have done... My view to the 10th is that I do not see this as a Mahler piece, just like the completed Final part of the 9th Bruckner."_

That was already answered in his 10th Symphony for those with the ears to hear who can tell the difference from his previous symphonies. The starker more streamlined melodic content and striking harmonic dissonances in his 1st movement Adagio were completed and orchestrated by _himself_ and clearly point to a new direction that he was taking-including the terrifying, dissonant block chords like a scream-though no one will ever know how much he might have been influenced in a changing world by Schoenberg, Webern, and Berg. But it's doubtful he would have gone in exactly the same direction.

'In the 1920s the already fully scored Adagio along with the likewise-scored Purgatorio 3rd movement from the 10th were published and performed.' It does not carry much weigh for everyone that some conveniently "do not see this as a Mahler piece" when the performance edition of the entire 10th has been accepted and routinely performed around the world since 1964. Those who understand and appreciate the composer obviously _do_ accept it.

It was Alma Mahler, his wife, who gave her approval of the Cooke performance edition, and as far as Mahler's conception and imagination are concerned, his 10th is just as inspired and genuine as his other symphonies, revealing something far denser and more dissonant harmonically than ever before. His only misfortune was running out of time to fully orchestrate it because he was still at the height of his creative power.

Adagio:


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> Epic, like great landscapes. My only criticism is that sometimes they are not cohesive, they kind of ramble and wander.


Of course, one of Mahler's great passions was to ramble and wander through the mountains and countryside, taking in the sights and sounds as he went. I wonder if this is what's reflected in his music?


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

Larkenfield said:


> _"... Those who *understand* and *appreciate* the composer obviously do accept it.
> _


_
....................._


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Of course, one of Mahler's great passions was to ramble and wander through the mountains and countryside, taking in the sights and sounds as he went. I wonder if this is what's reflected in his music?


Mahler composed many of his symphonies in summertime in isolation in little distant cabins in the Austrian mountains.

It is mostly upto a conductor to guide us through these complicated works. Like a nature guide that shows you details you wouldn't notice and, hopefully, also can spark joy about the entire structure


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

The "droney" first movement of the First Symphony reminds me of some sort of growth process in nature. Mahler was obviously in tune with nature.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Larkenfield said:


> _"... it would have been interesting to find out what Mahler would have done... My view to the 10th is that I do not see this as a Mahler piece, just like the completed Final part of the 9th Bruckner."_
> 
> That was already answered in his 10th Symphony for those with the ears to hear who can tell the difference from his previous symphonies. The starker more streamlined melodic content and striking harmonic dissonances in his 1st movement Adagio were completed and orchestrated by _himself_ and clearly points to a new direction that he was taking-including the terrifying, dissonant block chords like a scream-though no one will ever know how much he might have been influenced in a changing world by Schoenberg, Webern, and Berg. But it's doubtful he would have gone in exactly the same direction.
> 
> ...


Yes, and the denial of the Tenth sides with the conservative argument that tonality was not "inevitably" headed for its precipice, or, God forbid, atonality. Convenient, isn't it? It's almost like a crooked D.A. not allowing evidence to be presented to a jury.


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