# Mittwoch



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Certain persons here are looking forward with GREAT anticipation to the Birmingham production of Mittwoch, Stockhausen's notorious "helicopter" opera. I've looked over the synopsis in wikipedia and it's pretty hard to imagine anyone getting an emotional charge out of something like this. For me, the emotional charge is the only reason to watch opera.

lol I keep saying that and it's never true. I get no emotional charge out of Barber of Seville, or Comte Ory, and I listen to them again and again.

I can imagine wanting to see this for the spectacle, as long as I had a comfortable seat and the freedom to leave at any moment without disturbing anyone else. But as a repertory opera, it's pretty hard to imagine. On the bright side, we surely do not have to worry about mad regietheater directors screwing it up.

So what's the purpose, for you? What's the point? Assuming you are one of those who would enjoy this.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

gott, welch' dunkel hier!


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

It isnt Romanticism, you dont go there to be filled with emotion! 

Licht is an intensely colourful work. And I imagine that to see it would be quite a spiritual experience.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

emiellucifuge said:


> It isnt Romanticism, you dont go there to be filled with emotion!
> 
> Licht is an intensely colourful work. And I imagine that to see it would be quite a spiritual experience.


Gosh. Well, OK. I can't argue that it's not colorful or spiritual, since both those elements are clear in the synopsis. And I'm actually looking forward to the Met's new Parsifal, as a result of the idea that spirituality is the access point. But ... helicopters? People stumbling and forgetting their lines as part of the script? The whole thing seems ... radically unfocussed. Perhaps I should say "defocussed." Almost as though someone decided to invent music from the ground up, without reference to what has worked in the past.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Avant-Garde is the new black.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

guythegreg said:


> Almost as though someone decided to invent music from the ground up, without reference to what has worked in the past.


I cant argue with that as to some extent that is what Stockhausen has tried to do!

Its what I like about it.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

emiellucifuge said:


> I cant argue with that as to some extent that is what Stockhausen has tried to do!
> 
> Its what I like about it.


Well, OK then!


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

guythegreg said:


> Almost as though someone decided to invent music from the ground up, without reference to what has worked in the past.


Well, that strikes me as a good description of the rationale of all Stockhausen's music. Is that a bad thing? Strikes me as being a position of utmost integrity.

In your posts you sit on the fence so well, it is hard to know exactly what you want us to respond to so, I will say that, as someone going to the performance of _Mittwoch _on 23 August, I would like to be exhilarated by the electronic music in _Orchestra finalists_; pleasantly surprised by _World parliament_, which is not, by a long way, my favourite peice of KS; entertained by seeing the _Helicopter _quartet live (or at least seeing it on video monitors as it takes place above me); and, I hope, having some insight granted me into _Michaelion_, also not my favourite piece though it does have an interesting electronic backing.

Unlike many people who go to performances - not just of music - I do not go with a list of expectations and demands which I insist are satisfied before I deign to confer my approval on the performance or the music itself.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Jeremy Marchant said:


> Well, that strikes me as a good description of the rationale of all Stockhausen's music. Is that a bad thing? Strikes me as being a position of utmost integrity.


Have to agree with that - no argument from me there.



Jeremy Marchant said:


> In your posts you sit on the fence so well, it is hard to know exactly what you want us to respond to


Sorry, don't mean to make it difficult! Just saying what I think, trying to do my best by the meaning without stepping on anybody's toes.

I don't disrespect people who like Stockhausen; when I ask what they get out of it it's just because I'd like to know. I've been struggling with access. There are so few operas I really like, and so many operas that others like, that I can't help thinking I'm missing something, in most of them. Emiellucifuge tried very sincerely to answer the question and I do appreciate that. And now you too have tried and I thank you very sincerely.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

One way to really get into his works is to find out as much as you can about them, read some interviews with the composer and even look at some other composers of the time and what they say about the music. It's good to know music from points of view of people other than the average audience.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> One way to really get into his works is to find out as much as you can about them, read some interviews with the composer and even look at some other composers of the time and what they say about the music. It's good to know music from points of view of people other than the average audience.


Sure, that sounds good. Like I say, I read what Wikipedia had to say about it. Found it rather off-putting, but I stuck with it I think through the end.

Not sure, though, what you're thinking the average audience might be. Everyone here seems quite unique to me. If I find out only what all these people think I will have an incredible range of ideas to ponder. And I don't have to go hunting! It's all right here!


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

guythegreg said:


> I don't disrespect people who like Stockhausen; when I ask what they get out of it it's just because I'd like to know. I've been struggling with access. There are so few operas I really like, and so many operas that others like, that I can't help thinking I'm missing something, in most of them. Emiellucifuge tried very sincerely to answer the question and I do appreciate that. And now you too have tried and I thank you very sincerely.


CoAG makes a good point. The paradox of KS's music is that each piece is intended to be appreciated without reference to any other piece of music (even other pieces by KS (and I am considering _Licht _as a whole as one piece)), yet it is so unusual that the more background understanding one has the more one is likely to get it.

Take _Mantra_. It has a simple structure - but one which is unique. You probably could deduce what was going on by listening hard a number of times, particularly if you're better than I am at spotting tone rows when they are augmented and diminished.

But _Gruppen_, it's inconceivable that you would notice that the "bandwidth" of each group (ie the interval within which all the notes of the group fall) is determined by the pitches of the set. I know that's what's going on. I can painstakingly work it out form the score, but I can't hear it. Particularly since up to three groups are playing simultaneously!

I'll get back to _Mittwoch _later.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Jeremy Marchant said:


> But _Gruppen_, it's inconceivable that you would notice that the "bandwidth" of each group (ie the interval within which all the notes of the group fall) is determined by the pitches of the set. I know that's what's going on. I can painstakingly work it out form the score, but I can't hear it. Particularly since up to three groups are playing simultaneously!


Godalmighty! Well, now I have to listen to Gruppen. We'll see. I'll let you know, I promise.

Part of my philosophy going in, though, is that one reason opera is so difficult is that it's not a science. There is no formula. What works now, in music, has been arrived at by a long, hard road, over the course of which many composers' efforts have fallen by the wayside. Composers far less adventurous than Stockhausen have disappeared without a trace. You wouldn't call their efforts a complete waste, because what they tried told us what wasn't working; but those to whom no one listens have nothing to put on their resumes with pride. They're not useless, but no one envies them.

And what works changes, over time, too. As the culture changes. Some poems that used to work, people just don't read any more. Some art that used to be marveled at just isn't interesting any more. So of course we should always be trying something new; when I hear that people are bored with the same old stuff, I know what they mean. I can appreciate that.

But there is an enormous enterprise of popular music in process that never seems to fail to acquire an audience, and they're not using helicopters and musicians trying to coordinate from extravagant distances and color themes allied with specific scents that are then allied with specific tone qualities. They're making music the old-fashioned way, by trying things that are just new enough not to be boring to as many people as possible. Lady Gaga may dress up in meat but you can't tell it by listening to her music. Her music is very much a part of the popular tradition. And the reason is, that tradition works. It does something for the people that are listening. And there's not much else that does.

I'll listen to Stockhausen. But I don't have a whole lot of hope that I'm going to be engaged.

But that's kind of beside the point. The point is:


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> But that's kind of beside the point. The point is:


lol oops left a little tag end in there


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## Jimm (Jun 29, 2012)

Love Stockhausen's _LICHT_ cycle .. _Mittwoch_ is fabulous. Hopefully, they film some of this premiere and make a documentary out of it's production like has been done in the past with several of the other operas in the cycle. The best way to get to know Stockhausen's music is to just jump right in and experience it on a visceral level, and don't expect results right away. It takes time .. and if you keep returning to it, you'll open up things in yourself not only as a listener but also widen your perception of music & composition overall. His greatest strength was making music sound wonderful, where you can listen through the sounds and hear everything. He had a very deep rigorous scientific precise approach guided by his own intuition & personal vision that he stuck to very closely. There is nothing wishy washy about it, it's very carefully done.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Wow - love it. Such enthusiasm! Well, we'll see. I'll give it a try on Saturday - Gruppen is available at the NY Performing Arts Library, although I don't know yet if I'm going to be able to get a libretto - and post the results here after (Monday).


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## Jimm (Jun 29, 2012)

Again, it will take time .. don't expect quick results, or to completely absorb & understand everything "after Monday", it's a little more involving & complicated ..

Do you have the Stockhausen Verlag (Stockhausen's own label) discs of _Mittwoch aus Licht_? You can get most of it and many other recordings here >> http://www.stockhausencds.com/

Scores etc. here >> http://www.stockhausen-verlag.com/

_Gruppen_ is a work for 3 orchestras which surround-sound the listeners who are to be seated in the middle of the 3 orchestral groups which pass the musical material around in dialog .. it's actually being performed live in NYC tonight & tomorrow .. to sold out audiences. And is also being streamed video, also audio formats .. read here >> http://nyphil.org/newsroom/files/Armory_Gruppen_Streaming.pdf

It, like a lot of Stockhausen's music is really made to be experienced live due to the elaborate time, sound, spatial design elements. Much music composed from the 70s onward on top of those elements just mentioned also incorporate elaborate choreographed & composed visual elements into the performance practice, for a complete desired presentation .. instrumental theatre.

All of the Mittwoch UK staging productions coming in August are sold out too. Take your time, Have fun exploring!


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

wierd - I left a response earlier, looked at it after it posted, and now it's gone! wtf?

Any way, yeah, I'm going to check out Gruppen on Saturday, I'll let you guys know what happened Monday.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Oh, NOW my old response is there! *L* this is pretty friggin' weird...

yeah, I can't actually buy things online, due to some quirks in my personal situation. Have to go to libraries, or get people to order them for me - and buying Licht sight unseen so to speak? gosh, I don't think so. I'd have to be addicted to Stockhausen first. Well, it could happen, you never know! I have been accused of having a mind that is really much TOO open, so it ought to be possible ...


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

Jimm said:


> Do you have the Stockhausen Verlag (Stockhausen's own label) discs of _Mittwoch aus Licht_


Join the Stockhausen Society UK and, for a trivial sum, you'll get access to lots of recordings of KS's music not otherwise available, including one of _Michaelion_, not released by the Verlag.


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

To be honest, if I were to help someone get their head around Stockhausen's music, _Mittwoch _would be a long way down the list of works I would choose as convincers.

Criticism that _Mittwoch _is self-indulgent, whimsical, certainly doesn't remotely hang together as a coherent whole, abstruse, almost perversely difficult to stage, naive - you name it - is all true. Even the staunchest supporters of KS find _Mittwoch _and _Sonntag _try their patience, and that is certainly true for me. Being pro the composer, I'm willing to entertain some of these "defects", but I can understand people antithetical to his music throwing their hands up in desperation. I completely sympathise. Your reaction is the right one - for you.

The one criticism that doesn't hold water is that it is musically loose, random even. On the contrary, the music is tightly put together and, if it needs study to clarify this, well, study it. The problem is that, unlike _Il ritorno d'Ulisse in patria_, or _Die Zauberflöte_, or even Lachenmann's _Das Mädchen mit den Schwefelhölzern_, there is no narrative to speak of, no trajectory, no emotional charge (as gtg originally pointed out) to overlay like a veneer the musical structure. Punters can be forgiven for walking on by.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Well, but gosh, isn't it exciting that these concerts are sold out? I never would have thought it possible. I will go prepared to enjoy! (Not to the concert, of course, since it's ... sold out ...)


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## Jimm (Jun 29, 2012)

Jeremy Marchant said:


> Join the Stockhausen Society UK and, for a trivial sum, you'll get access to lots of recordings of KS's music not otherwise available, including one of _Michaelion_, not released by the Verlag.


I was asking him .. but thanks, I already have almost all of the albums on Stockhausen's label. Including several DVDs, incl. the one of the _Michaelion_ quasi concert premiere performance.


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## Jimm (Jun 29, 2012)

Jeremy Marchant said:


> To be honest, if I were to help someone get their head around Stockhausen's music, _Mittwoch _would be a long way down the list of works I would choose as convincers.
> 
> Criticism that _Mittwoch _is self-indulgent, whimsical, certainly doesn't remotely hang together as a coherent whole, abstruse, almost perversely difficult to stage, naive - you name it - is all true. Even the staunchest supporters of KS find _Mittwoch _and _Sonntag _try their patience, and that is certainly true for me.


I have a different experience/perspective; Mittwoch hasn't been fully staged yet, and Sonntag sold out and received rave reviews .. but nevermind any of that, just jump in and explore i say. _LICHT_ is the perfect world to enter (and that's exactly what it is, a musical world), it has everything that Stockhausen is about with a more accessible bent.

_Mittwoch_ is a great entry point .. and the cycle of "operas" gets better and better as it goes along to the more complex ones like Mittwoch & Sonntag .. Sonntag being my personal favourite of the lot, a kind of celestial mass. He rethinks / recontextualizes all aspects, including, of course .. the performance space. Some folks may say that that's "self-indulgent" or "perverse", but not really .. he's opening doors and pushing/exploring boundaries.

And his conception of "opera" or "staged music" is more akin to earlier periods & other cultures. A blend of many, many unique spices actually. So don't expect a conventional thing. There is a lot of symbolism, and scenic associations, visions & dreaming . and it deals with universal themes (unity, good/evil, time etc) .. never expect straight line narratives or convention from Stockhausen. He likes to challenge and make things interesting, or even puzzling, elusive.

On a musical level, it's absolutely extraordinary & fabulous .. and it is completely unified as a whole,I love the whole fractal type approach he has designed ..


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## Jimm (Jun 29, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> Well, but gosh, isn't it exciting that these concerts are sold out? I never would have thought it possible. I will go prepared to enjoy! (Not to the concert, of course, since it's ... sold out ...)


Stockhausen events/experiences have a long history of being typically sold out. He's one of the main composers of our time, a survivor, and a big draw .. and we can only expect more in the future, he's left behind a huge complex galaxy of music that will be explored & studied for centuries to come.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Or tutti a me ...

Well Friday a few minutes before I left I saw the link in a previous post to the Gruppen show here in NYC that same night. I printed it off and went and had penne vodka at the local Slopperie, (no, that's not its name) and afterwards hopped on the 6 train to 59th street. I had been by the Armory once before, since I used to work in an office building on 59th between Lexington and Park, and it's in that area. So I toddled up there, making conversation with a lady who seemed to be heading the same direction and (i found) was actually going to the show. 

I don't know if anyone here has ever been to the Armory, but if you imagine the Great Hall at Pemberley, only with wheelchair access and taxis zipping by, you'll be pretty close. My companion zipped off to the bar as I made my way to the Box Office. They did actually have an extra ticket that had been returned, at only a little more than twice what I had been prepared to pay, and in I went. While we waited for the doors to open, I sat and made conversation with a NICE old lady who loved opera and raved about Die soldaten, which she said was at the Armory not too long ago. She said, "But my seat was so bad, I didn't even know the soldiers had pig faces until I saw the picture in the paper the next day!" lol. Well, there go we all, if we're lucky.

Past the ticket taker, there were men in formal wear and ladies in Marie Antoinette costumes standing here and there like statues. I thought they were statues, some of them, but I was probably mostly wrong, since they all showed up to play the chorus for Don Giovanni.

Inside the armory proper (after you get past the "great hall at Pemberley" section, I guess) it's just an enormous building with a curved roof, about three stories up, and nothing between the floor and the ceiling. There was room for an audience of about 2000 in all. The best seats, a few hundred, were disposed circularly around a central podium just large enough for a few people to stand on it. Trisecting this circle, outside it, were three small orchestra stages, and between these stages were three stands of seats. There were quite a few other spaces occupied by instruments, but those three stages were the main ones. The audience sections were lit in bright red, and the orchestra sections in vibrant blue. My seat was a pretty good one, not too far from the front of one of these outer audience sections.

The first piece was to be Pierre Boulez' Rituel in memoriam Bruno Madera. It was described as played by eight groups of instruments, group 1 having 1 instrument, group 2 two, group 3 three instruments, etc. Percussion was a separate matter, and each group was to have its characteristic percussive accompaniment.

As it began, I noticed there was very little dissonance. And a lot of amen chords. Come to think of it, it sounded very much like bad Christmas music. I did note the different groups of instruments playing at various times, without percussion, and when the guy in the seat next to me said, "This is Gabrieli," I confidently assured him it was not, pointing out the different groups of instruments that were playing separately, just as it said in the program. The piece ended, and I had much more positive feeling about Boulez than I had ever had before. It had been a pretty stupid piece, but it was listenable, and I was thinking I might read up a bit on Boulez and see what else he had composed at this time of his life.

Then the Boulez began. It was more enjoyable than the Gabrieli, but still, honestly, in years to come, when the secret diary of Pierre Boulez is unearthed and it is discovered that the heavy lifting, in terms of deciding what instruments will play what notes and when, was done by his six-year-old son, no one will be surprised. Alan Gilbert looked more than a bit ridiculous, up on that central podium, pointing sharply first in one direction and then in another, giving instructions from which one could see no result, getting results for which one had seen no direction, pointing one way and getting sound in another. I had an almost overpowering urge to start singing, "It's a Long Way to Tipperary," and let security drag me out. Of course I would have missed Gruppen, but that's not why I didn't do it.

Nevertheless, the spatial effects were pleasing. The idea of giving each group of instruments its characteristic percussion capability was good. I couldn't help thinking that Traviata, done with the soloists, orchestra and chorus disposed around a central audience, with added percussion, would be a very interesting and worthwhile experiment.

Then we had the Finale of the first act of Don Giovanni. It's never been an opera I liked, and this in-the-round presentation, almost with audience participation (the chorus ambled around between the sets of seats, flirting with the audience, and much of the action occurred on the steps and passageways to the audience seats), did nothing to help me overcome that feeling. The drama was not heightened, the "breaking of the fourth wall," or whatever theater experts call it, was just kind of irritating, well, if it had been Simon Boccanegra, who knows. I might have loved it. Pass on.

Gruppen! Here we go. Well, I cannot claim that a six-year-old could have written it. It was effective, in a way, memorable (although I can't actually remember much lol), and not unpleasant, and that's more than I can say for Don Giovanni, for myself. It was of complex construction. The orchestration was at times dense, at others simple. I really can't tell you what I heard; silences, not walls but volumes, amphitheaters of sound, drips, drops, crackles, buzzes, and then from time to time orchestras, too. I had no urge to sing. I would say it was about as pleasant as listening to 16th-century madrigals. Not something I do on purpose, but if it's on the radio, I'll listen.

I did feel a bit of a fool afterwards - I mean, I could have had another ticket to the Paris Opera Ballet, for what I spent on this - but as Mr. Bennet so properly remarks, what do we live for but to be sport for our neighbors, and to laugh at them in our turn? And honestly, I would have felt worse if I had not gone. It's worth the money, not to wonder and feel left out. I was part of the Event. And you know, it wasn't Gruppen that made me feel silly for having gone, it was the Boulez and the Mozart.


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