# What's Your Opinion of WERTHER?



## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Massenet's WERTHER is an opera I've never seen, but I have started listening to the recording made in the 1990's by Kent Nagano, with Jerry Hadley and Anne Sofie von Otter in the leads. I've gotten thru the end of Act I, and my impression so far is that the music is beautiful but sort of lacks variety (e.g. there's been nothing up-tempo as of yet). It sounds typically French in many ways, of course. I'll continue listening until I finish the opera, but as I do I wanted to get some opinions on the work. I'm aware many feel it's too sentimental, but is there anyone here who absolutely loves WERTHER? Also, what performances of it have people here seen, and were they effective?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I first saw *Werther* when still a student, back in the 1970s. I can't recall now who the singers were, but it was a Glyndbourne Touring production, originally by, of all people, Sir Michael Redgrave. It was a very beautiful, very traditional production and I totally fell under its spell.

I know many now find the character of Werther rather pathetic and lacking in backbone, but to do so rather misses the point, not only of the opera, but of the Romantic movement. It's based on early Goethe, and centres on that obsessive, all-consuming love that only the young can feel. The music is rather more subtle than in some of Massenet's operas and I feel sure it will grown on you.

I don't know any of the DVDs, though there is a good one with Jonas Kauffmann, I think.

On recording, it has been extraordinarily lucky, right from the first recording under Elie Cohen with Georges Thill and Ninon Vallin. Other favourites of mine are Gedda and De Los Angeles under Pretre, Kraus and Troyanos under Plasson, Carreras and Von Stade under Davis, and, best of all, I think, Alagna and Gheorghiu under Pappano.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

I just saw the Met version with Jonas Kaufmann last season. I cannot bear to see his masculine, sexy persona acting like a wimpy Caspar Milquetoast. Aside of the weakness of his character, I must say I like the opera itself and the music but can't really say I'd buy another ticket for it. I really cannot stand the death scene.
I'll stick to listening rather than seeing in this case.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Here's my comparative breakdown from last year http://www.talkclassical.com/37486-discussion-thread-accompany-most-post939701.html#post939701


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> I just saw the Met version with Jonas Kaufmann last season. I cannot bear to see his masculine, sexy persona acting like a wimpy Caspar Milquetoast. Aside of the character, I like the opera itself and the music but can't really say I'd buy another ticket for it. I really cannot stand the death scene.


But Werther is not a wimp. As I said before, you rather miss the point, not just of the opera but of Romanticism itself. If Werther is a wimp, then so is the narrator of Schubert's _Winterreise_.


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## Balthazar (Aug 30, 2014)

I absolutely love _Werther_. But I was a fan of Goethe's _Sorrows of Young Werther_ long before I heard the opera. For all its melodrama, I find "_Pourquoi me réveiller?_" very moving -- the whole third act, in fact.

This DVD with Jonas Kaufmann and Sophie Koch is excellent.










My favorite sound recording is with Georges Thill and Ninon Vallin from 1931.










The Met's recent production with Kaufmann included a rather graphic lead-in to the final scene.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

GregMitchell said:


> But Werther is not a wimp. As I said before, you rather miss the point, not just of the opera but of Romanticism itself. If Werther is a wimp, then so is the narrator of Schubert's _Winterreise_.


Yes, I think it's important to keep in mind the sensibility that's supposed to inform a particular opera. As I said, I've never seen WERTHER, but knowing something about Romanticism and German culture it seems to me that a good way to present the opera would be to have a very "Biedermeier" (sp) setting, perhaps with the village church ever-present in the background, and then have Werther himself appear looking like Keats or Byron or even Beethoven -- i.e. like one of those long-haired, early Romantic types. So then you'd have a visual contrast between a well-ordered, conventional, middle-class existence and the sort of living-on-an-emotional level philosophy Werther is supposed to represent. Is this something like how the production you saw was done?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Bellinilover said:


> Yes, I think it's important to keep in mind the sensibility that's supposed to inform a particular opera. As I said, I've never seen WERTHER, but knowing something about Romanticism and German culture it seems to me that a good way to present the opera would be to have a very "Biedermeier" (sp) setting, perhaps with the village church ever-present in the background, and then have Werther himself appear looking like Keats or Byron or even Beethoven -- i.e. like one of those long-haired, early Romantic types. So then you'd have a visual contrast between a well-ordered, conventional, middle-class existence and the sort of living-on-an-emotional level philosophy Werther is supposed to represent. Is this something like how the production you saw was done?


My memory is vague now, but I think the production I saw would chime with your view.


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

Here's my reaction to my first Werther:
http://www.talkclassical.com/22576-polenzanis-chicago-werther-great.html

And my second Werther:
http://www.talkclassical.com/24042-next-opera-youre-going-22.html#post626448

Beyond the incredible reversal of seating fortune, the second experience pretty much overcame the sour taste left by the first for the character of Werther, due both to a more faithful and respectful portrayal and Kaufmann's considerable acting ability.


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## Balthazar (Aug 30, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> ... it seems to me that a good way to present the opera would be to have a very "Biedermeier" (sp) setting, perhaps with the village church ever-present in the background, and then have Werther himself appear looking like Keats or Byron or even Beethoven -- i.e. like one of those long-haired, early Romantic types. So then you'd have a visual contrast between a well-ordered, conventional, middle-class existence and the sort of living-on-an-emotional level philosophy Werther is supposed to represent.


In the 18th century, Goethe's Werther started a continent-wide fashion trend of young men wearing his trademark yellow waistcoat and blue topcoat (as Kaufmann does on the DVD cover above), as well as a more unfortunate trend in copycat suicides.

The Kaufmann/Koch productions stay true to the spirit of Goethe's novel and the Romantic ethos it espoused.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Act III as a whole is the best thing Massenet ever wrote, but the rest of the opera isn't quite up to the same standard. However, the more contact I have had with the piece the more I have liked it and there is a nice group of excellent recordings of it both on CD and DVD.

N.


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## Il Maestro (Oct 27, 2015)

I have never heard it either but should probably start working on it soon as I am planning to see it at the ROH in the summer, with Joyce DiDonato playing Charlotte.


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## Il Maestro (Oct 27, 2015)

Balthazar said:


> I absolutely love _Werther_. But I was a fan of Goethe's _Sorrows of Young Werther_ long before I heard the opera. For all its melodrama, I find "_Pourquoi me réveiller?_" very moving -- the whole third act, in fact.
> 
> This DVD with Jonas Kaufmann and Sophie Koch is excellent.
> 
> ...


The DVD looks interesting, but I read some rather unfavourable reviews on Amazon regarding the camera work. How did you find it, if you don't mind me asking?


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## Il Maestro (Oct 27, 2015)

GregMitchell said:


> Here's my comparative breakdown from last year http://www.talkclassical.com/37486-discussion-thread-accompany-most-post939701.html#post939701


Wow! Great post! Thanks for taking the time to write it. I am still inclined to get the Carreras/Von Stade set though because of Von Stade.


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## Balthazar (Aug 30, 2014)

Il Maestro said:


> The DVD looks interesting, but I read some rather unfavourable reviews on Amazon regarding the camera work. How did you find it, if you don't mind me asking?


The videography, if somewhat unorthodox, doesn't bother me at all.

I just read some of those Amazon reviews and there is a fair amount of overreaction. For example, here is a (backwards?) clip of "_Pourquoi me réveiller?_" -- I don't recognize in it the abomination that those reviewers describe:






In any case, I would rather have the Paris Kaufmann/Koch than any other available including the recent Alvarez/Garanca.

The Met hasn't released their Kaufmann/Koch performance on DVD, but the final scene is available here on youtube.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Balthazar said:


> I absolutely love _Werther_. But I was a fan of Goethe's _Sorrows of Young Werther_ long before I heard the opera. For all its melodrama, I find "_Pourquoi me réveiller?_" very moving -- the whole third act, in fact.
> 
> This DVD with Jonas Kaufmann and Sophie Koch is excellent.


This one is stunning , no other words for it.
Koch is so fragile , she jut just the right note so to speak.
For CD I stay with Troyanos / Krausss and a very close call: von Stade/ Carreras:tiphat:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I used to dislike it, finding it rather a morbid wallow. I think it was hearing Corelli swoop, gargle and sob through it on a Met matinee broadcast that made me think of it as a load of overwrought, nauseating bathos. It wasn't till later that I heard it properly performed as the French music it is. Callas helped to turn me around with her superb rendition of Charlotte's "letter" aria, and then I picked up a copy of the fine Alagna/Gheorghiu recording. _Werther_ will never be a favorite, but when it can sound like this,






I'll take it. (And just when will it sound like that again, I wonder?)


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I bought the De Los Angeles/Gedda recording just for them, but I really don't care for the opera itself.


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## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

I just love it. I think that about covers it  Especially if it's sung as well as here











Unfortunately Di Stefano only sang the whole opera in Italian. But the live performance from Mexico in 1949 does also have Giulietta Simionato. The Met production with Kaufmann and Koch was fantastic. But the Thill recording is special.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Diminuendo said:


> I just love it. I think that about covers it  Especially if it's sung as well as here
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thill sings splendidly but lacks poetry. I love the Di Stefano; he was very young here, the tone is absolutely exquisite, and there's only a touch of the white, wide-open, driven quality at climaxes that became his principal fault by the time he was recording with Callas.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

nina foresti said:


> I just saw the Met version with Jonas Kaufmann last season. I *cannot bear to see his masculine, sexy persona acting like a wimpy Caspar Milquetoast*. Aside of the weakness of his character, I must say I like the opera itself and the music but can't really say I'd buy another ticket for it. I really cannot stand the death scene.
> I'll stick to listening rather than seeing in this case.


This is called 'acting' :lol:


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## Johann Sebastian Bach (Dec 18, 2015)

......original ....


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

It's by Massenet and therefore absolutely awful. And having played it a few times now, I know this to be true. Always a pleasure to be straight up asked for an opinion


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

dgee said:


> It's by Massenet and therefore absolutely awful. And having played it a few times now, I know this to be true. Always a pleasure to be straight up asked for an opinion


An entirely subjective one, of course, though I do wonder why you felt the need to contribute. It would be rather like me wading into a thread on "Moses and Aaron" and saying "It's by Schoenberg and therefore absolutely awful." I wouldn't dare however, because of the opprobrium that would be heaped on me if I did.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

I'm not much of a fan of Moses tbh.


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## Il Maestro (Oct 27, 2015)

Balthazar said:


> The videography, if somewhat unorthodox, doesn't bother me at all.
> 
> I just read some of those Amazon reviews and there is a fair amount of overreaction. For example, here is a (backwards?) clip of "_Pourquoi me réveiller?_" -- I don't recognize in it the abomination that those reviewers describe:
> 
> ...


That's reassuring, thanks! I thought it would be good since it was voted as the most recommended by members of this forum. Incidentally, this is the same production as the one I am planning to see at ROH in the summer.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Balthazar said:


> The videography, if somewhat unorthodox, doesn't bother me at all.
> 
> I just read some of those Amazon reviews and there is a fair amount of overreaction. For example, *here is a (backwards?) clip** of "Pourquoi me réveiller?*" -- I don't recognize in it the abomination that those reviewers describe:
> 
> ...


I'll take Kaufmann backward over any other current tenor forward.


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## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Thill sings splendidly but lacks poetry. I love the Di Stefano; he was very young here, the tone is absolutely exquisite, and there's only a touch of the white, wide-open, driven quality at climaxes that became his principal fault by the time he was recording with Callas.







A pity it's not in French. Pippo was really liked in Mexico. They clearly have good taste


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Il Maestro said:


> The DVD looks interesting, but I read some rather unfavourable reviews on Amazon regarding the camera work. How did you find it, if you don't mind me asking?


I was so annoyed by the camera work and I found it so distracting, I gave away my copy of the DVD.

This is my favourite version.


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## Wood (Feb 21, 2013)

Johann Sebastian Bach said:


> ......original ....


D#mn, that was going to be my joke.:lol:


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> An entirely subjective one, of course, though I do wonder why you felt the need to contribute. It would be rather like me wading into a thread on "Moses and Aaron" and saying "It's by Schoenberg and therefore absolutely awful." I wouldn't dare however, because of the opprobrium that would be heaped on me if I did.


I am not so fond of Massenet or Werther either but to call it absolutely awful just because it is by Massenet is just rude.
I don´t think it is absolutely awful but it is also not a favourite.


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## Il Maestro (Oct 27, 2015)

sospiro said:


> I was so annoyed by the camera work and I found it so distracting, I gave away my copy of the DVD.
> 
> This is my favourite version.


I read similar complaints from the Amazon reviews, but I think I'll take the plunge anyway and buy it.

That CD is already on my wishlist. Von Stade can do no wrong for me.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

DavidA said:


> This is called 'acting' :lol:


Yes I know but I just don't want to see him that way. In other words, his acting was just too damned good for me. Got it?


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

dgee said:


> It's by Massenet and therefore absolutely awful. And having played it a few times now, I know this to be true. Always a pleasure to be straight up asked for an opinion


Apologies for going off topic.

I know Massenet isn't rated very highly by some but I like what I've heard. I got this for the cast, didn't know it but I love it.










this is great










and this is one of my favourite operas










and I adore Faust.


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## Il Maestro (Oct 27, 2015)

Has anyone seen this version?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Il Maestro said:


> View attachment 80201
> 
> 
> Has anyone seen this version?


Never ever seen the cover let alone the DVD 

Oh, wait...Alagna, that's why :tiphat:


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Pugg said:


> Never ever seen the cover let alone the DVD
> 
> Oh, wait...Alagna, that's why :tiphat:


Alagna bashing permitted I see.

I haven't seen the video, but his Werther on CD is one of the best, maybe even _the_ best.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Like water off a duck's back


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

I'm rather ambivalent on "Werther". On one side, I have listened to quite a few recordings, and I have watched the opera several times in the theater. But, while I have always enjoyed, this enjoyment is rather subdued. Even when watching great performers of the role, like Alfredo Kraus. There is something in the piece that I'm never totally sold on it. It's not even my favorite Massenet's opera, as I do prefer "Thaïs".

I think as a first contact the DVD mentioned above with Kaufmann and Sophie Koch is fine.

For people that really like "Werther" a lot, there is also a baritone version that Massenet wrote especially for Mattia Battistini.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Pugg said:


> Like water off a duck's back


I'm sorry. I was just trying to work out why discussion and comment on the relative merits of certain artists by some members of the forum are considered "bashing", when taking one line swipes at other artists by certain other members is not.

Perhaps you could enlighten me.


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## Il Maestro (Oct 27, 2015)

Pugg said:


> Never ever seen the cover let alone the DVD
> 
> Oh, wait...Alagna, that's why :tiphat:


I am not exactly a fan of Alagna either but I gather he excels in French Opera.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Il Maestro said:


> I am not exactly a fan of Alagna either but I gather he excels in French Opera.


He does. I first saw him in *Romeo et Juliette* at Covent Garden, with Leontina Vaduva as Juliette (a performance that is actually on DVD). There was a palpable buzz in the house that night, just as there was for Gheorghiu's Violetta some time later. Everyone felt they were witnessing the start of something big. Alagna's promise wasn't, unfortunately, fully realised and he went on to sing a few roles he'd have been wiser to leave alone, but I prize his Werther, his Romeo and his Ruggiero on the Pappano *La Rondine*. I also have an excellent disc of Berlioz arias.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

GregMitchell said:


> I prize [Alagna's] Werther, his Romeo and his Ruggiero on the Pappano *La Rondine*. I also have an excellent disc of Berlioz arias.


Agreed. He was/is also a brilliant Faust.


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

One of the earliest opera purchases I made was the Domingo/Obraztsova recording on DG Quite fond of it I am. 
Love the first act most though.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Badinerie said:


> One of the earliest opera purchases I made was the Domingo/Obraztsova recording on DG Quite fond of it I am.
> Love the first act most though.


I actually listen to it from time to time, but the buckets of mud and criticism are waiting


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

*Love* might be too strong a word for my attitude towards _Werther_. I think "strong like" about covers it. Unpacking my feelings about this work are, of course, going to reveal more about me than they will about the work-- but right now, I'm okay with that.

1) Put me in the company of people who feel that this work, and Massenet's music in general, is under-appreciated.
2) As a former poetry-quoting, marginally practical adolescent geek (well- except for the 'adolescent' part, the rest remains true all these years later), how can I NOT empathize with the theme of hopeless, chanceless love?! (Well... at least the fact that I'm typing now means that I somehow found ways to face The Next Sunrise in spite of a'that.)
3) I can deal with what to modern eyes must look like strange archaisms in the plot line without too much mindwarp, having had sufficient practice with the second half of the 2nd Act of Wagner's _Tannhäuser_ and the Violetta-Germont scene in Verdi's _La Traviata_.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Badinerie said:


> One of the earliest opera purchases I made was the Domingo/Obraztsova recording on DG Quite fond of it I am.
> Love the first act most though.


But Obrazstsova? Who on earth thought it a good idea to cast her as Charlotte? You just have to hear Vallin, or De Los Angeles, or Von Stade, or Gheorghiu to hear what I mean.


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## Cesare Impalatore (Apr 16, 2015)

I adore Werther when he is sung by sophisticated lyric tenors who do justice to the sensibility and fragility of Goethe's sorrowful artist. Schipa, Kraus and Lemeshev are my favourites.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Cesare Impalatore said:


> I adore Werther when he is sung by sophisticated lyric tenors who do justice to the sensibility and fragility of Goethe's sorrowful artist. Schipa, Kraus and Lemeshev are my favourites.


Nice to see you around again, Cesare! My feeling is that to ward off the criticisms  of wimpishness levelled at the hero, it's best to have a passionate tenor (not the sobby Italian type of passion!) with a strong spinto voice. With this in mind, my favourite recordings of Werther's arias are Emile Scaramberg's, though I don't know of anything comparable on a complete recording. Thill of course has the right voice and the musicality but not the temperament, and Schipa's 'Pourquoi me reveiller?' certainly makes the case for a lighter voiced Werther who is emotionally contained without being at all cold or inexpressive.


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## Cesare Impalatore (Apr 16, 2015)

Figleaf said:


> Nice to see you around again, Cesare! My feeling is that to ward off the criticisms of wimpishness levelled at the hero, it's best to have a passionate tenor (not the sobby Italian type of passion!) with a strong spinto voice. With this in mind, my favourite recordings of Werther's arias are Emile Scaramberg's, though I don't know of anything comparable on a complete recording.


Good to see you, too! Also nice that as soon as I posted something, you showed up with a valuable reference to an obscure great of the French tradition who I didn't know before, classic Figleaf :cheers:


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Cesare Impalatore said:


> Good to see you, too! Also nice that as soon as I posted something, you showed up with a valuable reference to an obscure great of the French tradition who I didn't know before, classic Figleaf :cheers:


Aww!   I think our friends on TC often tend to underestimate French singers- even in French repertoire, which is strange. I like to redress the balance. OT: I also want to point out that Scaramberg is probably the greatest singer (in fact the only famous singer I'm aware of) from my new home region of Franche-Comté. 

Interesting historical tenor fact: Hans Buff-Giessen was the great nephew of Goethe's original Charlotte. (Did he ever sing Werther? Not as far as I know...) Like the hero of Goethe and Massenet, he took his own life at an early age, and not long after making a handful of interesting records.

http://forgottenoperasingers.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/hans-buff-giessen-tenor-giessen.html


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

GregMitchell said:


> But Obrazstsova? Who on earth thought it a good idea to cast her as Charlotte? You just have to hear Vallin, or De Los Angeles, or Von Stade, or Gheorghiu to hear what I mean.


When I started getting into Opera it was the Mezzo's that attracted me. I still love Elena's rich voice. So she wasnt the usual ideal casting for Charlotte, I didnt know any differant at the time, and what would be the point anyway of casting the same types in the same roles ad infinitum? You have to try something different now and again.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Badinerie said:


> When I started getting into Opera it was the Mezzo's that attracted me. I still love Elena's rich voice. So she wasnt the usual ideal casting for Charlotte, I didnt know any differant at the time, and what would be the point anyway of casting the same types in the same roles ad infinitum? You have to try something different now and again.


True, but it always seemed a monumental piece of miscasting to me. Her manner was altogether too aggressive for sweet Charlotte, a role which really need a light, lyric mezzo, not a dramatic one. Try any of the singers I mentioned above, and you will hear the difference. Troyanos, who recorded it with Kraus under Plasson, also had a very rich mezzo, and, to my ears, sounds a little heavy for the role, but she is much more in style and far preferable to the barnstorming Obrasztsova.


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

Not keen on Troyanos really, since I saw her Tosca at Covent Garden. 
Might put a new Werther on my wish list though. Its getting a bit epic these days though !:lol:


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Badinerie said:


> Not keen on Troyanos really, since I saw her Tosca at Covent Garden.
> Might put a new Werther on my wish list though. Its getting a bit epic these days though !:lol:


A mezzo singing Tosca? Are you sure


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

Yep! Not a bad thing on its own but I didnt care for her voice. 
I had booked two performances as Tosca is a favourite. I went back later in the week and saw Maria Zampieri stand in for her. Perhaps Miss Troyanos found it hard going. I think that she was already in poor health by then.

If you have five minutes check out Shirley Verrett singing the role with Pavarotti on YouTube. Miss Verrett was a Mezzo too.

PS "The barnstorming Obrasztsova." Yeah baby love it!


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Badinerie said:


> Not keen on Troyanos really, since I saw her Tosca at Covent Garden.
> Might put a new Werther on my wish list though. Its getting a bit epic these days though !:lol:


I think you're getting your singers or roles mixed up. Troyanos was a mezzo (she died of cancer in 1993).

Of the singers of Charlotte I mentioned above, only Ninon Vallin (before our time, I'm guessing) and Gheorghiu sang Tosca.


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

Rotfl! Yes I did...it was Natalia Troitskaya. Profound Apologies to the late Miss Troyanos due. Well it was thirty years ago!

http://www.rohcollections.org.uk/performance.aspx?performance=14212&row=37

The Shirley Verrett still stands though.

Me...


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Badinerie said:


> Rotfl! Yes I did...it was Natalia Troitskaya. Profound Apologies to the late Miss Troyanos due. Well it was thirty years ago!
> 
> http://www.rohcollections.org.uk/performance.aspx?performance=14212&row=37
> 
> ...


Now I'm confused. When did Shirley Verrett come into it? And are we talking about Tosca or Charlotte now. She did record a superb version of the Letter Scene from *Werther*, but I don't know if she ever sang it on stage. I believe she was an excellent Tosca though.


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

Pugg asked about a Mezzo singing Tosca!


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Badinerie said:


> Pugg asked about a Mezzo singing Tosca!


Ah, sorry, I'm a bit slow in the mornings.

But was Verrett a mezzo, that's the question? She certainly started out singing mezzo roles, but later sang quite a bit of soprano repertoire, Tosca, Norma, Lady Macbeth, Aida, Cherubini's Medee and Leonore. And ultimately, does it really matter? She was a great singer and performer, that's what really matters.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Badinerie said:


> Pugg asked about a Mezzo singing Tosca!


You're right, I was purely focus on Troyanos, I know Verret did soprano roles, she even has a Norma behind her name I believe .
(Out the back off my head)


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Figleaf said:


> Nice to see you around again, Cesare! My feeling is that to ward off the criticisms of wimpishness levelled at the hero, it's best to have a passionate tenor (not the sobby Italian type of passion!) with a strong spinto voice. With this in mind, my favourite recordings of Werther's arias are Emile Scaramberg's, though I don't know of anything comparable on a complete recording. Thill of course has the right voice and the musicality but not the temperament, and Schipa's 'Pourquoi me reveiller?' certainly makes the case for a lighter voiced Werther who is emotionally contained without being at all cold or inexpressive.


Great point about the more passionate Werther. On the complete recording I mentioned in the OP, Jerry Hadley -- who didn't even have a huge voice, I don't think -- gives a very passionate, "pinging" "Pourqoi me reveiller?" You can really feel the character's torment.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

I'm a big Massenet fan, but I used to detest Werther. Emo hero who's introspective, broods and tops himself. Ugh. Problem was I'd heard recordings with non-Francophones in the leads (Carreras, Villazon). Then I heard the Thill/Vallin recording, and it clicked. It's still not my favourite Massenet, but it's in the top dozen!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

SimonTemplar said:


> I'm a big Massenet fan, but I used to detest Werther. Emo hero who's introspective, broods and tops himself. Ugh. Problem was I'd heard recordings with non-Francophones in the leads (Carreras, Villazon). Then I heard the Thill/Vallin recording, and it clicked. It's still not my favourite Massenet, but it's in the top dozen!


I've had exactly the same experience. My first Werther was Corelli at the Met in the 1970s, and sadly I will never be able to banish from my memory his godawful bellowing and scooping and lisping and gargling - or the mindless screaming of his claque. It was over the top and under the bottom. _Werther _has been more attractive to me ever since, and has fared much better at the Met with the dignified Jonas Kaufmann. He may not be French, but who cares?


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

I am still searching. I saw Kaufmann live and was annoyed that he was such a wimpo. I hated seeing him in that role
and am annoyed with the opera's theme. Aside of a couple of pretty arias, I have to give this one a pass.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I've had exactly the same experience. My first Werther was Corelli at the Met in the 1970s, and sadly I will never be able to banish from my memory his godawful bellowing and scooping and lisping and gargling - or the mindless screaming of his claque. It was over the top and under the bottom. _Werther _has been more attractive to me ever since, and has fared much better at the Met with the dignified Jonas Kaufmann. He may not be French, but who cares?


_I _care! Good point about the need for dignity in this music, though.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> I am still searching. I saw Kaufmann live and was annoyed that he was such a wimpo. I hated seeing him in that role
> and am annoyed with the opera's theme. Aside of a couple of pretty arias, I have to give this one a pass.


So you keep saying, but I fail completely to understand your viewpoint. Werther is not a wimp. You simply can't judge him by the unfortunately rather prosaic standards of today.

And, as I've said on numerous occasions, to fail to understand what Werther is about is to fail to understand the whole of the Romantic movement in art, literature and music.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

If you've never killed yourself for love you've missed one of life's peak experiences.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> _I _care! Good point about the need for dignity in this music, though.


Well, Goethe wasn't French either. And it's questionable whether shooting oneself in the head is French.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> I am still searching. I saw Kaufmann live and was annoyed that he was such a wimpo. I hated seeing him in that role
> and am annoyed with the opera's theme. Aside of a couple of pretty arias, I have to give this one a pass.


I'm jealous. You saw Kaufmann live. And dead as well. I'll take him either way.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> I am still searching. I saw Kaufmann live and was annoyed that he was such a wimpo. I hated seeing him in that role
> and am annoyed with the opera's theme. Aside of a couple of pretty arias, I have to give this one a pass.


Though I didn't see Kaufmann in the role (I only heard the radio broadcast), I'm surprised he would have struck you as wimpy. I mean, I know he's a good actor, but still he's one of the last singers I could imagine coming across as wimpy or weak.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Well, Goethe wasn't French either. And it's questionable whether shooting oneself in the head is French.


Now I'm tempted to canvass opinion locally to see whether you're right...


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> Now I'm tempted to canvass opinion locally to see whether you're right...


I suspect one would have to canvass the French. But I feel that do-it-yourself craniotomy sounds more Eastern European. I believe Lakme does it with toxic botanicals - neat, clean, and quick-acting. Tres raffinee.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> Though I didn't see Kaufmann in the role (I only heard the radio broadcast), I'm surprised he would have struck you as wimpy. I mean, I know he's a good actor, but still he's one of the last singers I could imagine coming across as wimpy or weak.


Well to my eyes his role was that of a weak character to begin with, so in that sense he certainly played it well. I just couldn't stand watching this sexy, strong appealing man in a role like that. It bothered me.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> Well to my eyes his role was that of a weak character to begin with, so in that sense he certainly played it well. I just couldn't stand watching this sexy, strong appealing man in a role like that. It bothered me.


If you had gone backstage to tell him that, he might have hugged you and comforted you.

Oh God. I'm fantasizing again.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> Though I didn't see Kaufmann in the role (I only heard the radio broadcast), I'm surprised he would have struck you as wimpy. I mean, I know he's a good actor, but still he's one of the last singers I could imagine coming across as wimpy or weak.


He's stunning, in every meaning off the word in that role :tiphat:


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> If you had gone backstage to tell him that, he might have hugged you and comforted you.
> 
> Oh God. I'm fantasizing again.


The hug is certainly a beginning. Comfort I don't need. I am thinking "other ways"!:devil:


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> The hug is certainly a beginning. Comfort I don't need. I am thinking "other ways"!:devil:


Don't hold back, he's divorced as far as we know :cheers:


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Then again, as it was already pointed out to me, it is obvious that I have "failed to understand the whole of the Romantic movement in art, literature and music".


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> The hug is certainly a beginning. Comfort I don't need. I am thinking "other ways"!:devil:


Nina, my dear, we are ALL thinking of other ways.


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## Balthazar (Aug 30, 2014)

Is this the _Werther_ thread or _Death in Venice_?


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## Classical Performances (Mar 8, 2016)

Werther was the last opera that I attended, ealier this year. I enjoyed it very much. It's an excellent story that affected future poets, authors and literature. In it's day, it changed how relationships were viewed (for better or worse). I believe the legacy of the story still affects how many people view romantic relationships today. Goethe's "Sorrows of Young Werther" is still required reading in Germany. As you might expect, the opera has more drama than the book. It's definitely worth going to see.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Classical Performances said:


> Werther was the last opera that I attended, ealier this year. I enjoyed it very much. It's an excellent story that affected future poets, authors and literature. In it's day, it changed how relationships were viewed (for better or worse). I believe the legacy of the story still affects how many people view romantic relationships today. Goethe's "Sorrows of Young Werther" is still required reading in Germany. As you might expect, the opera has more drama than the book. It's definitely worth going to see.


This one was voted best DVD in our own Opera top 100.


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## WertherCharlotte (Mar 14, 2015)

I also liked the Vienna 2015 Serban - Chaslin w/ A Gheorghiu, JF Borras (substitute for R Vargas) and L Tézier. In that production, there is more about Charlotte and her marriage to Albert. Tézier makes a great Albert


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

WertherCharlotte said:


> I also liked the Vienna 2015 Serban - Chaslin w/ A Gheorghiu, JF Borras (substitute for R Vargas) and L Tézier. In that production, there is more about Charlotte and her marriage to Albert. Tézier makes a great Albert


Is that out on DVD ? can't find it.


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## WertherCharlotte (Mar 14, 2015)

Pugg said:


> Is that out on DVD ? can't find it.


Back then I watched the Wiener Staatsoper live stream, I don't know if it is available on demand:

https://www.staatsoperlive.com/en/archive/143/werther-2015-03-13/#tab_0

Ok found it uploaded here if interested  (not in UHD though):

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTQ5MTYwNzMxMg==.html?f=26054462&from=y1.7-3


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

I've seen both DVDs with Kaufmann, and he makes a perfectly believeable Werther - angsty emo types are right up his alley. He's also ridiculously pretty.


I've also looked into the Vienna production with Tézier (only bits because I find Sophie Koch utterly boring at this point - seriously, are there no other Charlottes?) - and I loved him too, he makes for a more mature, shy and introverted type than Jonas. I feel like baritones know more about the pain of unrequited love than tenors  And his singing is sublime as always.


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