# Really short works?



## TresPicos (Mar 21, 2009)

How short can a classical music piece be and still be considered meaningful? Are there any famous really short works out there, like 5-10 seconds or so? 

(By "piece" or "work", I mean an independent work, not a movement of a longer work.)


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

i dont think so
the time frame does not allow for any meaningful structure - harmonic or thematic.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> In terms of length, the 'Minute Waltz' by Chopin (designed to be played in just one minute but often performed far too slowly) is the shortest stand alone piece.
> 
> Chopin's Minute Waltz is for solo piano. The shortest classical song I'm aware of is My Ear, the twelfth song in Hungarian composer Gyorgy Kurtag's song-cycle Kafka Fragments. In a CD recording by soprano Anu Komsi and violinist Sakari Oramo this song lasts just 11 seconds.


From WikiAnswers


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## TresPicos (Mar 21, 2009)

emiellucifuge said:


> i dont think so
> the time frame does not allow for any meaningful structure - harmonic or thematic.


But maybe such a piece could still have a value despite - or even _because _of - its brevity? I mean, you really can't say that a haiku poem is meaningless, and part of its value is its brevity and the innate here-and-now atmosphere. Why couldn't there be a equivalent to haiku in music?

I would love to sit at a concert and listen to a 5-second piece where a whole orchestra participates, if not else just for the "haiku-ish" experience, including the "what-just-happened?"-feeling afterwards.


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## Head_case (Feb 5, 2010)

If there are really short works of 5-10 seconds, please let us all know so that we can avoid wasting our money for a CD of them!


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## Head_case (Feb 5, 2010)

> Why couldn't there be a equivalent to haiku in music?


As Arvo Part alludes to - words often dominate music and music is in danger of becoming subservient to words, such that we no longer can experience music for-itself, rather than in-itself.

Music has its own language; this does not quintessentially, rely on words. It seems to me, that music which apes the language of the poetic word, reduces its form, to something less than music itself.

Might be an interesting experiment still...


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

well a haiku has structure firstly... but its an entirely different art. Music is an art organised through time and i am of the belief that structure is inseparable from substance and that structure is essential.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

TresPicos said:


> But maybe such a piece could still have a value despite - or even _because _of - its brevity? I mean, you really can't say that a haiku poem is meaningless, and part of its value is its brevity and the innate here-and-now atmosphere. Why couldn't there be a equivalent to haiku in music?
> 
> I would love to sit at a concert and listen to a 5-second piece where a whole orchestra participates, if not else just for the "haiku-ish" experience, including the "what-just-happened?"-feeling afterwards.


I think the main problem with this is that a Haiku always has the ability to change its contents _dramatically_ because of the sheer variety in meaning and purpose that language can bestow.

In music, however, there is little that you could convey in such a short space of time. Of course, it might be interesting and even exciting the first time you come across a 5 second piece of music, but if lots of composers did it, it would be very tiresome.


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## Head_case (Feb 5, 2010)

emiellucifuge said:


> well a haiku has structure firstly... but its an entirely different art. Music is an art organised through time and i am of the belief that structure is inseparable from substance and that structure is essential.


Sure.....

Take for example, a Kandinsky painting. This has structure primarily (the canvas; its size, its shape); and then the structure of the art itself. Painting, like music, is an art, organised (and informed) through time. Like many other art forms.

The structuralists will argue that substance is consubstantial with structure.

Then their task is to account for the post-structuralist movement. Post-structurally, we recognise that things-in-themselves, are not endowed with a life-of-its-own. The mechanics of structuralism, is not what matters in 'creation'; this is mere technique. Otherwise, structuralism itself becomes the worship of technique, rather than the 'creation' of art'. What matters to the viewer; to the listener; is a dialogue or engagement: this is 'participation' within a form of art - the structure itself, cannot codify the existential participation which we discover within art; whether that be music; painting or photography, or the written word.


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## TresPicos (Mar 21, 2009)

Polednice said:


> I think the main problem with this is that a Haiku always has the ability to change its contents _dramatically_ because of the sheer variety in meaning and purpose that language can bestow.
> 
> In music, however, there is little that you could convey in such a short space of time. Of course, it might be interesting and even exciting the first time you come across a 5 second piece of music, but if lots of composers did it, it would be very tiresome.


True. I agree that that 5-second piece might not convey that much. Maybe it corresponds to just the first line in a haiku. But how long, then, must a music piece be to convey "enough"? There must be thousands and thousands of pieces 1-2 minutes long, so that's obviously enough.

But where do we draw the line? 45 seconds? 30? 20? Even though you cannot draw a sharp line at, say 24 seconds, I find it somewhat intriguing that there seems to be a "meaning horizon" somewhere between 5 and 60 seconds, or maybe between 10 and 30.


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## Stunt21 (Jan 22, 2010)

Hi, TresPicos.

If I understand your doubt, I think that you should rather think not about time, but about phrases, chords...Musical units, instead of physical ones, as there's nothing avoiding me to play any recorded piece increasing its playing speed 

I find your question interesting too, but the answer will surely be subjective...

Greetings


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## hankz (Jan 13, 2010)

For the piece to be meaningful for me, it needs to be atleast 2-3 minutes long.


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## Fsharpmajor (Dec 14, 2008)

The shortest single piece of classical music is said to be Anton Webern's *Opus 11 No. 2 for Cello and Piano*. This performance lasts 24 seconds--enjoy! 

*



*


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## Head_case (Feb 5, 2010)

Fsharpmajor said:


> The shortest single piece of classical music is said to be Anton Webern's *Opus 11 No. 2 for Cello and Piano*. This performance lasts 24 seconds--enjoy!
> 
> *
> 
> ...


Who was the critic who famously described music like this as 'stray cats copulating on tin rooftops'?

The only problem with Webern's little ditties (and he's not kidding when he says 'little') is that they barely get started. Poor cats


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## Artemis (Dec 8, 2007)

Beethoven (from my collection):


WoO 34 - Duet for two violins (19 secs)

WoO 86 - Ecossaise in E flat (24 secs)

WoO 61a - Allegretto quasi andante in G minor (33 secs)

WoO 85 - Waltz in D (33 secs)

WoO 184 - 'Falstafferel' (62 secs)

WoO 29 - March in B Flat Major (75 secs)


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## Alexandre F (Feb 8, 2010)

I can say John Mayer "Calcutta-Nagar, for piano: no.4. Che-Na Para - China Town" - 15 seconds.


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## Alexandre F (Feb 8, 2010)

I can say John Mayer "Calcutta-Nagar, for piano: no.4. Che-Na Para - China Town" - 15 seconds.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

You can say it twice if you wish...


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## Fsharpmajor (Dec 14, 2008)

Head_case said:


> The only problem with Webern's little ditties (and he's not kidding when he says 'little') is that they barely get started.


Apparently his entire oeuvre lasts only five and a half hours. BBC Radio 3 played the whole thing one day.


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## TresPicos (Mar 21, 2009)

Fsharpmajor said:


> Apparently his entire oeuvre lasts only five and a half hours. BBC Radio 3 played the whole thing one day.


Wow, I would have liked to hear those 5,5 hours.


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## mstar (Aug 14, 2013)

The shortest work I know is Chopin's Butterfly Etude. It's approximately 55 seconds long, but a wonderful work! Well, I suppose Chopin just has that talent....


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## Ondine (Aug 24, 2012)

Mr. Nichols Alamain from John Dowland's music for Solo Lute: 0' 50''


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

I am a perpetual beginner on guitar; many of those easy pieces are under a minute in length. I suppose one could argue that they are not for real. 

Here's a short piano piece by Hovhaness:


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Beethoven was seldom long-winded and could sometimes by very brief. Two of the movements in his 4th Cello Sonata are only 2 1/2 minutes long -- but he packs a lot in there!


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Scriabin wrote a wealth of great piano miniatures of around 1 or 2 minutes, some even shorter than 1 minute.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

1 verse of the Hokey Pokey takes about 30 seconds and apparently that's what it's all about. You can't get more meaningful than that.


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## Garlic (May 3, 2013)




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## mstar (Aug 14, 2013)

You know what... The first piano piece I ever played in my life was called "Dino My Pet Dinosaur" from the Fun Book, and was about 12 seconds long. I recommend it to everyone.


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## spradlig (Jul 25, 2012)

Anton Webern is famous for writing very short pieces and some of them have been cited here already. 

Chopin wrote a Prelude in c minor that is the basis for Barry Manilow's song "Mandy". The Prelude is very short.

Chopin's Prelude in A Major, Op. 28, No. 7, is between 16 and 17 measures long. Someone incorporated it into the ballet "Les Slyphides", but they extended it with repeats.


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

Chopin wrote a few preludes that are only about 30 sec.
Beethoven wrote a Bagatelle that's only 7 seconds


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## mstar (Aug 14, 2013)

Cosmos said:


> Beethoven wrote a Bagatelle that's only 7 seconds


Really? Can you post the video on here, or name it? I'd like to hear it! I find that very interesting. I must also ask the question.... _why_.  I guess we'll just never know....


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## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

harmony with strings and xylophone. theme danger.


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## Roland (Mar 13, 2013)

Although written for solo piano, many of the simple pieces composed for children by Dmitry Kabalevsky are both very short and musically meaningful. I find many of them to be as beautiful and satisfying as a good haiku.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

mstar said:


> Really? Can you post the video on here, or name it? I'd like to hear it! I find that very interesting. I must also ask the question.... _why_.  I guess we'll just never know....


Found two videos of it on the Tube"


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## mstar (Aug 14, 2013)

brianvds said:


> Found two videos of it on the Tube"


Wonderful, Brianvds, Cosmos! I will be sure to add that to my collection of music!

Brianvds.... Isn't the Tube so useful? Had to laugh at that nickname... the Tube... :lol: :tiphat:


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

mstar said:


> Wonderful, Brianvds, Cosmos! I will be sure to add that to my collection of music!
> 
> Brianvds.... Isn't the Tube so useful? Had to laugh at that nickname... the Tube... :lol: :tiphat:


The only reason why I am not completely glued to the Tube 24/7 is that I have a cap on my internet data and therefore cannot afford to watch all that many online videos. It's a blessing in disguise.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

I love short pieces. Not just to listen to, but also to play. Since my time for the piano is limited, I'd rather focus on getting a 1 or 2 page-piece to sound as good as possible, and then move on to the next piece, instead of spending many months on the same 10 page piece.
Every good composer should be able to write convincing 1 minute pieces.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

DeepR said:


> I love short pieces. Not just to listen to, but also to play. Since my time for the piano is limited, I'd rather focus on getting a 1 or 2 page-piece to sound as good as possible, and then move on to the next piece, instead of spending many months on the same 10 page piece.
> Every good composer should be able to write convincing 1 minute pieces.


It's really difficult to write something that short, actually. At least, it's difficult to make it feel substantial; there's a tendency to feel like you have to say more than you can in such a short space. Of course, you can't just pack more in, because density calls for development.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

What really opened my eyes (ears) to short pieces was when I first listened to Pletnev's wonderful recording of Scriabin's Op. 11 preludes. Many times, you are thrown right into the middle of things, but somehow Scriabin manages to put enough in there to make it a substantial experience, however brief it may be. He was a master at creating tiny but captivating musical worlds, always concluding them in satisfactory fashion. Some of his preludes just make me want to hit the replay button again and again.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

violadude said:


> 1 verse of the Hokey Pokey takes about 30 seconds and apparently that's what it's all about. You can't get more meaningful than that.


...................................


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Bump:

There is a relatively current contemporary development, "the new miniaturists." This is a little trend (sorry) where the game is a piece made up with the content of no more than 100 notes played....


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## spradlig (Jul 25, 2012)

Oops, correcting my previous post, Barry Manilow did write a song based on a very short Prelude in c minor by Chopin but it was not "Mandy". It was "Let Me See the Magic" or something like that (don't know the title of the song).


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## Ostinato (Jun 24, 2009)

mstar said:


> Cosmos said:
> 
> 
> > Beethoven wrote a Bagatelle that's only 7 seconds
> ...


I think it is the Bagatelle in A major, Opus 119 No 10.


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## Musician (Jul 25, 2013)

I have composed this couple of years ago, its about 18 measures


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## Winterreisender (Jul 13, 2013)

Many of Satie's pieces are very short, for example his very first composition entitled 'Allegro.' This is about 33 seconds.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

'Cellist Lynn Harrell speaks about and plays Webern's Drei Kleine Stücke, Op.11


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## isridgewell (Jul 2, 2013)

Ruud Langarrd composed a work for Chorus, Organ and Orchestra. The Orchestra is vast, 3 tubas, 6 trombones 6 trumpets and 8 horns in the brass section alone. The piece is just under 3 mins long and the choir only sings one sentence (just once not repeated or embellished!).

I don't think profound springs to mind, more eccentric and very unlikely to be performed!


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