# Michael Haydn



## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

I've known of him for a while but only just decided to give his music a go. On Amazon Music Unlimited there are many recordings of his music; where is the best place to start? 

Thank you.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

He wrote a very fine requiem.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

His woodwind / brass works and symphonies are a good way to start with.


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## Alydon (May 16, 2012)

Always liked his violin concertos. Michael Haydn will never equal his more famous brother but his style is certainly engaging and well worth the listen. Apparently, Micheal could have been a much more prolific and widely known composer, but the drink got him and was often found unconscious in the organ loft after a heavy session.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

> Michael's influence on Romanticism is also reflected in the writings of E. T. A. Hoffmann, who praised Michael's sacred music above that of older brother Joseph's. Franz Schubert is known to have visited the grave of Michael Haydn in order to gain inspiration for writing sacred music. After one of these visits, Schubert wrote in a letter to his brother the following epitaph:
> "I thought to myself, 'May thy pure and peaceful spirit hover around me, dear Haydn! If I can ever become like thee, peaceful and guileless, in all matters none on earth has such deep reverence for thee as I have.' (Sad tears fell from my eyes. . . .)"





> Franz Schubert followed the model of this setting when he wrote his Deutsche Messe.







It's interesting how "personal" Michael (in his requiem) gets compared to his predecessors and contemporaries, Pergolesi (stabat mater), Zelenka (requiems in C minor and D minor), Ernst Eberlin (Requiem No.8 in C), Christian Bach (sequentia della messa de morti) and Adolph Hasse (requiems in C and E flat). I think Michael was the "Berlioz" of his time. The recapitulations of various material throughout the work also seem interesting.






"trumpet signal" & 1st requiem theme:
0:20

2nd requiem theme:
3:20 ~ 3:45

chromatic fourth theme (climbing from D to G in the bassline):
12:40 ~ 12:50

"trumpet signal":
26:48 , 27:56

chromatic fourth theme recapitulated (climbing from G to C in the soprano solo):
28:40 ~ 28:50

cum sanctis tuis fugue:
29:17 ~ 31:16

2nd requiem theme recapitulated:
31:22 ~ 31:50

1st requiem theme recapitulated:
31:58 ~ 32:30

cum sanctis tuis fugue recapitulated:
32:38 ~ 34:30

"Salzburgian" angularities:
10:55 ~ 10:59
11:35 ~ 11:39 
29:07 ~ 29:15 
(Also look at Mozart K.317, K.475, K.477, K.626 )

I've longed to find similarly impressive stuff in Michael, but unfortunately, much of music hasn't yet been recorded.













I also think Michael's influence on Mozart (aside from the obvious examples, like "quam olim abrahae" or "et lux perpetua") can't be overstated.
Compare Michael's "cum sanctis tuis" with "laudate pueri dominum" from Mozart vesperae K.339, for example. Or Michael's "dies irae" with certain ensemble sections of Mozart mass K.427.



hammeredklavier said:


> I speculate that Mozart's use of arpeggiated, syncopated figures in vocal music also has its roots in the Salzburg tradition, most probably passed on from guys like Eberlin and Adlgasser.
> (I don't find them in vocal music by other guys like Joseph Haydn or the Bach Brothers)
> 
> Johann Ernst Eberlin (1702-1762) - Missa in C - 3:30
> ...


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)




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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

hammeredklavier said:


> cum sanctis tuis fugue:
> 29:17 ~ 31:16
> 
> Compare Michael's "cum sanctis tuis" with "laudate pueri dominum" from Mozart vesperae K.339, for example. Or Michael's "dies irae" with certain ensemble sections of Mozart mass K.427.







-----

some interesting comparisons -

M. Haydn Missa Sancti Joannis Nepomuceni, MH 182: Gloria (1772)
W.A. Mozart Missa brevis in D major, K.194: Credo (1774)

M. Haydn Missa Sancti Joannis Nepomuceni, MH 182: Benedictus (1772)
W.A. Mozart Litaniae Lauretanae de Beata Maria Virgine, K.195: Regina angelorum (1774)






W.A. Mozart Missa brevis in B flat major, K.275: Credo (1777)
M. Haydn Missa tempore Quadragesimae, MH 553: Credo (1794)

M. Haydn Missa Sancti Joannis Nepomuceni, MH 182: Et incarnatus est (1772)
W.A. Mozart Krönungsmesse, K.317: Et incarnatus est (1779)








hammeredklavier said:


> "Salzburgian" angularities:
> 10:55 ~ 10:59
> 11:35 ~ 11:39
> 29:07 ~ 29:15
> (Also look at Mozart K.317, K.475, K.477, K.626 )


Let me add a couple more:
10:55 ~ 10:59
11:35 ~ 11:39 
12:07 ~ 12:12
29:07 ~ 29:15 
(Also look at Mozart K.317, K.475, K.477, K.533, K.626 )


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

I also like Michael's symphonies better than Joseph's. They seem to be less about "jokes" (not that I have anything against jokes in general, -I just find Joseph's jokes "lame" and "unfunny" to be honest), but more about interesting counterpoint and wind-writing. He seems to be a true direct descendant of the Baroque, and seems to establish _serious_ Classicism (more than Joseph is/does).
I'm also not quite impressed by the way Joseph handles his variation movements where he adds "accompaniment" to the theme in the subsequent passages. They seem kind of "cheap" to me, like the Ole Ole variations from the Neo-romantic composer Richard Kastle's 9th piano concerto, or the God save the king Variations (1829) by Samuel Wesley. 
It seems to me that Michael "churned out" less (albeit with the same degree of quality as Joseph) in this department.

Michael's writing for winds really seems reminiscent of Mozart's divertimentos like K.251. (Also look at the use of the oboe in his Missa sancti Hieronymi) It's quite telling that Mozart in his Vienna period studied Michael's scores, but not Joseph's (I don't find any significant case of Joseph's influence on Mozart during this period except his 52th and 78th, which might have been an inspiration for Mozart's "stile Pathétique" , and some minor influences in string quartet writing).

I like Michael's ways to create tension**, -they're not as dramatic or character-changing as Mozart's, but still effective.

M. Haydn - P 24, MH 425 - *Symphony No. 33 in B flat major*: [ 1:55 ]
Michael Haydn *Symphony No.28 in C major* Perger 19: [ 17:06 ]
(we can also hear his obvious influence on Mozart's final symphony in certain sections)

**also look at these sections of Michael's own Missa sancti Hieronymi, or this from his Missa sancti Joannis Nepomuceni

M. Haydn - P 32, MH 507 - *Symphony No. 40 in F major* (Salzburg, 1789): [ 7:29 ]
compare the style with Mozart's K.184 symphony (Salzburg, 1773): [ 2:45 ]
or his final, K.551 (Vienna, 1788): [ 16:30 ]
(the first movement of Michael's MH507 F major symphony is also melodically memorable, btw)

M. Haydn - P 20, MH 393 - *Symphony No. 29 in D minor*: [ 0:01 ] , [ 12:52 ]
the last movement isn't as "half-baked" as Joseph's and is reminiscent of the first movement.
"The third movement is a rondeau, Presto scherzante. Horns are in F, trumpets in D. The A theme could be seen as a metamorphosis of the first subject of the first movement. The final statement of the A theme in D minor is almost the same as the first except the horns are absent while they change crooks to D. After a fermata on a V7 chord, the A theme is given in D major, the only difference from the first statement being the key signature."

Michael Haydn *Symphony No.27 in B flat major* Perger 18: [0:01]
the slow introduction is memorable

*Symphony No. 34 in E flat major*: [ 5:24 ]
*Symphony No.39 in C major*: [7:02] 
short, overture-like symphonies with fugato finales, the C major (No.39, MH 478) written in the same year as Mozart's K.551

*Symphony No. 22 in D major*: [ 12:15 ]
Mozart copied out this fugato finale as study (K.291)


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

My favorite book on classical music is Harold Schoenberg's _Lives of the Great Composers_ because it is so well written and so accessible to anyone, even those who are musically, illiterate.

Along that line, maybe someone ought to write a book on the _Relatives of the Great Composers_!

1. Chapter One: Wilhelm Friedemann Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach, and Johann Christian Bach (Sons of Johann Sebastian S Bach)
2. Chapter Two: Leopold Mozart (Father of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart)
3. Chapter Three: Michael Haydn (Brother of Franz Joseph Haydn)
4. Chapter Four: Fanny Mendelssohn (Sister of Felix Mendelssohn)
5. Chapter Five: Clara Schumann (Wife of Robert Schumann)
6. Chapter Six: Johann Strauss I, Josef Strauss, Eduard Strauss (Father and brothers of Johann Strauss II respectively)
7. Chapter Seven: Nikolai Rubinstein (Brother of Anton Rubinstein)
8. Chapter Eight: Siegfried Wagner (Son of Richard Wagner and Grandson of Franz Liszt)
9. Chapter Nine: Karen Khachaturian (Nephew of Aram Khachaturian)

Did I leave anyone out?

..and who wants to write this book?


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## Guest (Dec 12, 2020)

Michael Haydn's Requiem was used for the Requiem Mass for Otto von Habsburg in July, 2011, in Vienna. We were on holiday from Vienna at that time but have subsequently watched the whole thing here (though the quality isn't good). Kardinal Christoff Schönborn conducted the service. Splendid it was too.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Shameless plug. :tiphat:

Ave Regina with yours truly singing bass solo


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2020)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Shameless plug. :tiphat:
> 
> Ave Regina with yours truly singing bass solo


Excellent; thanks for the link. I should imagine this work isn't particularly easy to sing.


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## gvn (Dec 14, 2019)

Coach G said:


> Maybe someone ought to write a book on the _Relatives of the Great Composers_!
> 
> 1. Chapter One: Wilhelm Friedemann Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach, and Johann Christian Bach (Sons of Johann Sebastian S Bach)
> 2. Chapter Two: Leopold Mozart (Father of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart)
> ...


Great idea, great choices!

I suppose Josef Suk (son-in-law of Dvořák) doesn't count!

What about Michael Berkeley (son of Lennox Berkeley)? [Not that I've heard much of his music.]


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Missa sancti Gabrielis (Missa brevis in C, MH 17) - Et incarnatus est [ 5:49 ~ 7:10 ]
(note the dissonance starting at 6:43)
Mozart Missa brevis in C "spaurmesse", K.258 [ 6:29 ~ 7:09 ]

"Gregorian melodies, of course, continued to be used in the Mass throughout the eighteenth century; but by Beethoven's time they were relatively rare, especially in orchestral Masses. The one composer who still used them extensively is Michael Haydn, in his a cappella Masses for Advent and Lent. It is significant that in some of these he limits the borrowed melody to the Incarnatus and expressly labels it "Corale." In the Missa dolorum B. M. V. (1762) it is set in the style of a harmonized chorale, in the Missa tempore Qudragesima of 1794 note against note, with the Gregorian melody (Credo IV of the Liber Usualis) appearing in the soprano. I have little doubt that Beethoven knew such works of Michael Haydn, at that time the most popular composer of sacred music in Austria."
< Beethoven , By Michael Spitzer , Pg. 123 ~ 124 >

This is what I consider as the "Salzburgian" Classical missa brevis style:
Michael Haydn Missa sancti Gabrielis [ 8:30 ~ 8:35 ]
Mozart Missa brevis in C "orgelmesse", K.259 [ 7:22 ~ 7:27 ]
Mozart Missa brevis in C "spaurmesse", K.258 [ 8:50 ~ 8:55 ]
Mozart Missa brevis in C "spatzenmesse", K.220 [ 8:08 ~ 8:12 ]

In K.167, K.192, K.262, Mozart does a similar gesture (albeit with a brief tempo change) before the Et vitam venturi fugue. Mozart had done this as early as 1768, the same year Michael wrote his Missa sti. Gabrielis - K.139.
Btw, Joseph quotes Mozart's K.262 and K.183 G minor symphony in the agnus dei of his Theresienmesse (1799)


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Mozart Missa longa in C, K.262 (1775) : cum sancto spiritu
Michael Haydn Missa sancti Hieronymi in C, MH 254 (1777) : cum sancto spiritu

Michael Haydn string quintet in G, MH 189 (1773) : [ 0:49 ~ 1:06 ]
Mozart string quartet in E flat, K.428 (1783) : [ 0:49 ~ 1:14 ]


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## EnescuCvartet (Dec 16, 2016)

The Missa Sancti Francisci is an exciting work. I'm not familiar with much else, so I may take some of the rec's here.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

EnescuCvartet said:


> The Missa Sancti Francisci is an exciting work.


Michael wrote 3 works named "Missa sancti Francisci seraphici"; MH43 (C major), MH119 (C major), MH826 (D minor). I'm not sure which one you're talking about.
I'm not sure if MH43 was ever recorded. MH119 was written in 1756 and I remember it contains in the gloria some phrases similar to the gloria of Mozart's missa longa (1775). 
MH119: [ 3:16 ]
KV262: [ 3:49 ]
Again, I can't stress enough; Michael and Mozart seem to have shared a common dialect.
MH155: [ 26:48 ~ 28:38 ]
KV257: [ 20:58 ~ 23:00 ]
KV258: [ 13:00 ~ the end ]

MH826 was written in 1803. I like the hauntingly dark "agnus dei" somewhat, but it's not one of my favorite works in his oeuvre. Strangely, I find Michael's works from the 19th century (such as the Missa sancta theresiae and the unfinished requiem in B flat) generally not as satisfying as his earlier works. Maybe he was getting old and worn-out, so inspiration was lacking. I have no idea when the vespers were written. But there is one exception:


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

"Michael Haydn's (1737-1806) Romance in A flat major for horn and string quartet poses many questions. It is instantly identifiable as a version of the slow movement of Mozart's Horn Concerto in E-flat major, KV447. Which of the two works came first is hard to say. The Mozart concerto was first published by Johann Anton André (Offenbach am Main) in 1800 and André's handwritten date of 1783 can still be seen on the manuscript housed in the British Library. More recent studies of the manuscript paper have suggested a later date of 1787. Haydn's Romance is thought to date from 1794 and was first published in 1802. However, there are some slight peculiarities about both works that suggest it may not be as simple as it first seems as each work contains passages that are hard to conceive of having been composed without knowledge of the other's version. 
Mozart and Michael Haydn were great friends - to the extent that Mozart helped Haydn out in 1783 by 'ghost writing' a set of violin and viola duets that the Archbishop of Salzburg had commissioned from Haydn, and which he, due to illness, had been unable to complete. Other Mozart works, such as the Symphony No. 37 in G major, KV444/425a are, in fact, works by Michael Haydn with some changes by Mozart. One plausible explanation may be that Haydn had also been required to write a horn concerto and, having completed the slow movement, was unable to fulfil the commission and passed the job on to his friend, only to later return to his earlier sketches and complete the work with his original intentions. The main theme of the Romance is in many ways more stately and noble than Mozart's version. The gentle, benevolent atmosphere is eventually shattered with a turbulent passage for the strings alone. However this is a passing storm, and the entrance of the horn brings with it a welcome return to calm."
http://www.plumstead-peculiars.com/shop/ppp1502-m-haydnw-a-mozart-romance-in-a-flat-major


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

A cappella masses for Advent and Lent. I like them more than any early music stuff that lacks expressive emphasis with dynamics.

Responsoria in coena domini, MH 276: 
I. In monte Oliveti
II. Tristis est anima mea
III. Ecce vidimus eum
IV. Amicus meus
V. Judas mercator pessimus
VI. Unus ex discipulis meis
VII. Eram quasi agnus innocens
VIII. Una hora
IX. Seniores populi

In parasceve, MH 277: 
I. Omnes amici mei
II. Velum templi scissum est
III. Vinea mea electa
IV. Tamquam ad latronem existis
V. Tenebrae factae sunt
VI. Animam meam dilectam
VII. Tradiderunt me
VIII. Jesum tradidit impius
IX. Caligaverunt oculi mei

In sabbato sancto, MH 278: 
I. Sicut ovis
II. Jerusalem surge
III. Plange quasi virgo
IV. Recessit pastor noster
V. O vos omnes, qui transitis per viam
VI. Ecce quomodo moritur Justus
VII. Astiterunt reges terrae
VIII. Aestimatus sum
IX. Sepulto domino


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## EnescuCvartet (Dec 16, 2016)

hammeredklavier said:


> Michael wrote 3 works named "Missa sancti Francisci seraphici"; MH43 (C major), MH119 (C major), MH826 (D minor). I'm not sure which one you're talking about.
> I'm not sure if MH43 was ever recorded. MH119 was written in 1756 and I remember it contains in the gloria some phrases similar to the gloria of Mozart's missa longa (1775).
> MH119: [ 3:16 ]
> KV262: [ 3:49 ]
> ...


Hammered, it's this : Missa "Subtitulo Sancti Francisci" I don't have an MH number but it must be the one in D minor because the music begins in that key.


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