# What is your opinion of each of these modern "non-classical"musicians and....



## peterh (Mar 10, 2012)

*What is your opinion of each of these modern "non-classical"musicians and....*

How would you compare them to modern day (say post 1960) classical composers.

1)Godspeed You! Black Emperor
2)Sigur Ros
3)A Silver Mt. Zion
4)Radiohead
5)Sufjan Stevens
6)The Mars Volta
7)At the Drive-In
8)Tool
9)Kayo Dot
10)Arcade Fire
11)Frank Zappa
12)Pink Floyd
13)The Mahavishnu Orchestra
14)King Crimson
15)Led Zepplin
16)My Bloody Valentine


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

It's very hard to compare 2 different genres. But the ones you selected are pretty good. I wonder if the widespread of genres might've watered down those striving to be composers of modern classical. So many other types of music to choose from these days.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

1)Godspeed You! Black Emperor - none
2)Sigur Ros - none
3)A Silver Mt. Zion - none
4)Radiohead - I like several of their songs and respect them musically.
5)Sufjan Stevens - none
6)The Mars Volta - overrated and, to me, noisy
7)At the Drive-In - none
8)Tool - one of my favorites along with A Perfect Circle
9)Kayo Dot - none
10)Arcade Fire - none
11)Frank Zappa - legendary; guitar wizard
12)Pink Floyd - perhaps the greatest band ever
13)The Mahavishnu Orchestra - none
14)King Crimson - every incarnation is a great one
15)Led Zeppelin - what can I say? Rock and roll at its finest.
16)My Bloody Valentine - none


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## peterh (Mar 10, 2012)

Ignore this.


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## Philip (Mar 22, 2011)

I wouldn't try comparing them... most modern "classical" composers come from an academic/conservatory type background, while many members of these bands probably have no formal music education.

Even in college, in terms of strengths and weaknesses, there's a big difference between jazz and classical musicians.

Nevertheless, i like all the artists that i know in your list.


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

I saw Godspeed You! Black Emperor in concert. Was pretty great! I like all the ones on the list except Tool. Never could get into them... I'd say the only way they are similar is in their attempt to use different techniques on instruments, such as Godspeed using screwdrivers to play their guitars, etc.


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## peterh (Mar 10, 2012)

Philip said:


> I wouldn't try comparing them... most modern "classical" composers come from an academic/conservatory type background, while many members of these bands probably have no formal music education.
> 
> Even in college, in terms of strengths and weaknesses, there's a big difference between jazz and classical musicians.
> 
> Nevertheless, i like all the artists that i know in your list.


Why wouldn't you compare them just because some are classically trained and some aren't?


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## Philip (Mar 22, 2011)

peterh said:


> Why wouldn't you compare them just because some are classically trained and some aren't?


Apples and oranges?

Edit: Actually, what i just did is compare them, by saying their backgrounds are mostly different.


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## peterh (Mar 10, 2012)

Well, no, because it's not about technical proficiency, it's about beauty, or how it effects you etc. All music, pop, metal, minimalist, classical, avant-garde etc. can be compared under that category.


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## Lenfer (Aug 15, 2011)

1)Godspeed You! Black Emperor: Who?
2)Sigur Ros: Who?
3)A Silver Mt. Zion: Who?
4)Radiohead: Not my thing.
5)Sufjan Stevens: Who?
6)The Mars Volta: Who?
7)At the Drive-In: Who?
8)Tool: Who?
9)Kayo Dot: Who?
10)Arcade Fire: Who?
11)Frank Zappa: Not my cup of tea but I respect his work.
12)Pink Floyd: Overrated. 
13)The Mahavishnu Orchestra: Who?
14)King Crimson: See *Pink Floyd*
15)Led Zepplin: Not my thing but I know people who like them so they can't be that bad.
16)My Bloody Valentine: Who?

I'll stick to classical music thank you very much. I like the idea of this thread though I bet the answers will be fun to read.


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## Philip (Mar 22, 2011)

peterh said:


> Well, no, because it's not about technical proficiency, it's about beauty, or how it effects you etc. All music, pop, metal, minimalist, classical, avant-garde etc. can be compared under that category.


I haven't even mentioned anything about technical proficiency, and your original post doesn't mention any of these specific points. This leads me to believe that from the start you had some sort of agenda and strived to show that "technical proficiency" had little to do with the quality of the music, perhaps obfuscating your average classical listener along the way by putting them in a position where they couldn't prove you wrong.

If that's your objective, you picked the wrong TC member to argue with because i probably listen to more pop than classical music. Maybe you should explicitly state which aspects of the music you wanted to compare.


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## peterh (Mar 10, 2012)

Oh, my mistake, I misunderstood what you said. What do you mean when you say:

"I wouldn't try comparing them... most modern "classical" composers come from an academic/conservatory type background, while many members of these bands probably have no formal music education.

Even in college, in terms of strengths and weaknesses, there's a big difference between jazz and classical musicians."


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I'm not familiar with everyone on the list, but Frank Zappa was a post 1960 "classical" composer. Not the term I would use. I prefer contemporary chamber/orchestral composer. There are some other very accomplished musicians/composers in that company including Robert Fripp; and the members of Mahavishnu Orchestra including John McLaughlin, Jan Hammer, Billy Cobham, and Jerry Goodman. McLaughlin has composed and recorded two works for guitar and orchestra under his own name, as well as some chamber and orchestra arrangements on some of the latter MO albums.


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

Everybody in this thread should check out Godspeed. Do it now! Also, if you're into Jazz at all, listen to Mahavishnu Orchestra. If I had to rank them I'd pick those two, early Silver Mt. Zion, Kayo Dot, King Crimson, Sigur Ros, My Bloody Valentine, and Frank Zappa as the tops. Radiohead as well. Tool, Led Zeppelin, At The Drive-In, and Mars Volta at the bottom for me. Everything else falls in between.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Godspeed is awesome. Agreed with the suggestion.


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## Stargazer (Nov 9, 2011)

Out of the bands you mentioned, I'm a pretty big fan of Pink Floyd and Led Zeppelin. I do like a lot of Radiohead as well but I find they can be very hit or miss with their songs...either extremely good or downright terrible lol. A lot of the rest I haven't really listened to enough to comment much.

As a side note, Roger Waters (previously from Pink Floyd for those who don't know) wrote an opera recently that apparently got pretty decent reviews, so I guess he could be considered a contemporary classical composer as well! (Note: I've never heard/seen it so I have no personal opinion on what it's like lol).


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

Lenfer said:


> 1)Godspeed You! Black Emperor: Who?
> 2)Sigur Ros: Who?
> 3)A Silver Mt. Zion: Who?
> 4)Radiohead: Not my thing.
> ...


So,...I can completely understand "not my cup of tea" or "not my thing" but I am extremely curious just in what sense you feel Pink Floyd is overrated. We're talking about a band who produced at least three perfect records, arguably more and this set contains at least two masterpieces. This is not a song or two; we're talking every single song on not one but a few albums. One of the finest keyboard players a rock band has ever had, bassist/composer extraodinaire and quite possibly the best rock guitarist ever if not the cleanest who wrote instantly memorable solos that no guitarist ever dares play different because each solo is just so, damned perfect. Then we got these overrated dudes playing in front of no one in Pompeii where I invite you to listen to the harmonies beginning at 3:00. This is completely live and around '71 before they were even perfectly seasoned yet and far before,...The Wall, which I guess is overrated, too.






So do tell me please how this band is overrated. Being American, I'd love to learn.


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

Radiohead - lame alt rock reappropriation of old post-punk and krautrock tropes. Try Can instead
The Mars Volta - mallprog
Tool - terrible overproduced alt rock with progressive pretensions, watched too much Bill Hicks
Arcade Fire - ugh
All the post-rock bands you listed - mrehhhh
Frank Zappa - fine
Pink Floyd - aggressively unremarkable, try Faust or Amon Duul or something and you'll never look at them the same way again
King Crimson - fine
Led Zeppelin - derivative garbage, partially responsible for everything I can't stand about the rock ethos
My Bloody Valentine - twee college rock dorks who made an album with some neat textures


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

Yeah, RT...you're right...this does sound like garbage:


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Well everyone has different taste in music. Like mentioned in another thread, not worth making a big deal about. I don't like Ligeti or Brahms who happened to be some others favorite composers.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

kv466 said:


> quite possibly the best rock guitarist ever if not the cleanest who wrote instantly memorable solos that no guitarist ever dares play different because each solo is just so, damned perfect.


about gilmour, i really think he's overrated. I'm not saying that the ones on Comfortably numb or Shine on you crazy diamond (just to name two of his most celebrated) are bad solos, but for me certainly is not very creative or exciting stuff.
Maybe it's the cleanest (i don't know), but is it really a great merit in rock music?


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

^^

Agree to disagree.






I mean,...we're talking about dozens upon dozens of memorable solos and licks and sounds with impeccable playing. What are we really looking for in a rock guitarist? I'm definitely curious to hear what you consider to be a great rock guitarist that you don't consider to be overrated, Mr. Bates.


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## peterh (Mar 10, 2012)

Philip said:


> If that's your objective, you picked the wrong TC member to argue with because i probably listen to more pop than classical music. Maybe you should explicitly state which aspects of the music you wanted to compare.


I guess just the overall artistic value.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

kv466 said:


> I'm definitely curious to hear what you consider to be a great rock guitarist that you don't consider to be overrated, Mr. Bates.


some of my favorite in rock music (withouth considering the folk ones): Duane Allman, Marc Ribot, Roy Montgomery, D Boon, Bill Harkleroad and Jeff Cotton, Jerry Garcia, Peter Green on The end of the game, Keiji Haino, Blixa Bargeld in the bad seeds.
Anyway, i don't consider Gilmour a bad guitarist, it's only that i don't consider him the great god of rock guitar.


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## Lenfer (Aug 15, 2011)

kv466 said:


> So,...I can completely understand "not my cup of tea" or "not my thing" but I am extremely curious just in what sense you feel Pink Floyd is overrated. We're talking about a band who produced at least three perfect records, arguably more and this set contains at least two masterpieces. This is not a song or two; we're talking every single song on not one but a few albums. One of the finest keyboard players a rock band has ever had, bassist/composer extraodinaire and quite possibly the best rock guitarist ever if not the cleanest who wrote instantly memorable solos that no guitarist ever dares play different because each solo is just so, damned perfect. Then we got these overrated dudes playing in front of no one in Pompeii where I invite you to listen to the harmonies beginning at 3:00. This is completely live and around '71 before they were even perfectly seasoned yet and far before,...The Wall, which I guess is overrated, too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I didn't mean to be offensive or anything *KV*. I know from talking to you your a big Pink Floyd fan and have probely listened to all of their albums numerous times. I feel they are overrated in that most people (the general public maybe) that I know of whenever they bring up Pink Floyd they talk about Dark Side of the Moon, Wish You Were Here and The Wall perhaps another album but they don't take in to account the early and late Pink Floyd which isn't to the same as those albums maybe 1972 - 1980. Not many people rant and rave about *Atom Heart Mother*.

"Not my cup of tea" was a my way of saying it's not bad just I don't think I could listen to it and enjoy it. I'm aware of *Pink Floyd*, *Led Zeppelin*, *Frank Zappa*. There not bad I can see why people like them and they did a lot for "pop music" - I don't mean pop like the stuff today back then rock was pop kind of? - just I couldn't listen to them. I think their good musicians particularly *John Paul Jones* in their genres.

I don't like *Radiohead* but I respect them for making the music they want and not caring about profits etc. I remember they made an album free to download as it was on the news some years ago. Truth be told I haven't heard a large amount of any of these groups and most of them I hadn't heard of before. I was trying to poke fun at myself showing that I'm pretty much in the dark about the pop music scene.


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## Philip (Mar 22, 2011)

peterh said:


> I guess just the overall artistic value.


Very much the same, with a perhaps greater cultural value, since they seem to have reached a wider audience than neo-classical composers in general.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Well I am a fan of Pink Floyd. I actually prefer all their music before Dark Side of the Moon. I can see why some think that album as overrated. I guess I'm not that big of a fan of Gilmour either for that matter. He is a well trained guitarist. He just lacks the creativity of some of the greats imo. I'll stick with the stuff I really like from them. Piper at the Gates of Dawn. A psychedelic masterpiece imo. Syd Barrett basically lived a psychedelic mindset and it showed best on that album. Other good albums from them include Saucerful of Secrets, Atom Heart Mother, and Meddle. My favorite later Pink Floyd album is The Wall. That one isn't overrated imo.


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## Philip (Mar 22, 2011)

Lenfer said:


> 2)Sigur Ros: Who?


Sigur Rós - Vaka (Untitled) Álafoss, Heima 





Sigur Rós - Starálfur, Álafoss, Heima


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

regressivetransphobe said:


> Radiohead - lame alt rock reappropriation of old post-punk and krautrock tropes. Try Can instead
> The Mars Volta - mallprog
> Tool - terrible overproduced alt rock with progressive pretensions, watched too much Bill Hicks
> Arcade Fire - ugh
> ...


I checked a lot of the bands out you suggested, and they all seemed pretty great actually, but I don't see how any of them could be argued to be definitively greater than many of the bands you trashed - (also comparing a band like Faust to Pink Floyd is a rather odd comparison?)... Do you like any bands that get really popular, or does that in itself usually correlate with lesser quality music in your view?


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

regressivetransphobe said:


> Radiohead - lame alt rock reappropriation of old post-punk and krautrock tropes. Try Can instead
> The Mars Volta - mallprog
> Tool - terrible overproduced alt rock with progressive pretensions, watched too much Bill Hicks
> Arcade Fire - ugh
> ...


I like all the bands you mentioned and it never stopped me from liking the ones you put down and suggested alternatives for.


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## peterh (Mar 10, 2012)

Can is really good, it's a good suggestion. Although I don't see many similarities between them and Radiohead.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

No worries, Lenfer...I very well may have been, um...I guess I must really be a Floyd fan because I love Atom Heart Mother and my favorite is Obscured By Clouds. I have a special affinity for each nuance of every, single one of their songs because I set each of them to lasers and lights and visuals and made multi-media shows out of them so I grew to love the music even more than I did before that. Anyway,...I made a Radiohead show too and I can't say the same about them. Good to see you around.


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