# Claudio Abbado’s Mahler



## Monsalvat (11 mo ago)

*What do you think of Claudio Abbado’s Mahler?*

It’s a bit hard to keep track of his recordings, since he never made a complete cycle with one orchestra. There was an earlier quasi-cycle with the Vienna Philharmonic and Chicago Symphony Orchestra, made in the late ’70s and ’80s. Then there was a nearly complete cycle with the Berlin Philharmonic, except for the Second Symphony. Later on, he made several recordings with the Lucerne Festival Orchestra. Deutsche Grammophon issued a box of his Mahler including the Berlin almost-cycle, supplemented with a Second recorded with the Lucerne Festival Orchestra.

I hate to resort to binary comparisons, but I think his style is effective in Mahler. It is almost like Boulez in terms of the clarity, restraint, and dedication to the composer, but with more warmth and feeling. I think my favorite of his Mahler recordings is the 1984 Mahler Seventh with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. I listened to his 1980 Third with the Vienna Philharmonic earlier today and enjoyed it. What do you like best about him? Which recordings do you like the most? Do you think he was better live or in the studio? I’d love to hear your thoughts!


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

For Mahler 7 with the CSO I agree.

I like his Lucerne recordings, in particular No. 3 and No. 9.

Abbado's Mahler recordings sometimes appear distant and vitreous to me. You can hear everything, it's all there, great playing, good organisation of the dramatic evolution, however, something essential seems to be missing and I even do not know, what.

Maybe it is the idea of something unexpected.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

I think Abbado is very obviously one the finest Mahler conductors, ever, and all of his cycles (complete and partial) have highly recommendable performances, whether from Chicago, Berlin, Vienna, or Lucerne Festival. I tend myself to overall favor the later Berlin and Lucerne recordings, but there is much to like from the earlier ones as well.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

I collected his first cycle on DG as they appeared on LP and snatched up the CDs when they came out. What I like about them is the clarity and classical poise he brings. Sometimes he seems too restrained on recording. And live, let me tell you: I heard him do Mahler 1 with the Vienna Philharmonic at Carnegie Hall some 30 years ago or so and that performance still rings in my head. The finale was overwhelmingly exciting. No performance I've heard since by anyone has even come close, and that includes the Dude in LA.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Abbado Mahler recordings I return to often:

1 with Berlin or Chicago. 
2 with Chicago.
3 with Berlin or Lucerne.
4 with Vienna.
5 with Berlin but the CSO one is close.
6 with Berlin or Lucerne. I may narrowly prefer Lucerne. 
7 with Berlin, which is superior to the oft-lauded CSO (and yet I've held on to both).
I don't especially favor Abbado for the Eighth at this time.
9 with Berlin or Lucerne.

I don't think any are less than recommendable, and I place little trust in anyone who says otherwise. I know that I should probably give Abbado's Eighths another try.

Abbado's Mahler definitely tends towards the philosophical and deeply considered, with less of the fury and angst from the likes of Bernstein, whose Mahler I generally really like, or Solti, whose I really don't. But Abbado's way with Mahler is not remotely as easily cornered as detractors, or the previous comment made here by me, would suggest. Abbado's Mahler Sixth recordings with Lucerne and Berlin are harrowing.

_De gustibus non est disputandum._


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

There was an interesting incident captured on video during Abbado's first time rehearsing the 1st symphony with the Berlin Philharmonic which speaks to his more laid-back style (for want of a better description). At the part towards the end of the last movement where the horns are instructed to stand up, which they did, Abbado stopped the rehearsal and made a comment of (approx.) "I know that it's in the score but we won't be doing it."


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

I love Abbado's Mahler, especially his earlier recordings of the 2nd (Chicago), 3rd (Wiener), 4th (Wiener), 5th (Chicago), 7th (Chicago) and 9th (Wiener). His later live remakes of the 3rd, 4th, 6th, 7th and 9th with the Berliners were also quite good.


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

Among Abbado's commericialised Mahler recordings that I am aware of, there are 26 live recordings and 7 studio recordings, i.e. most of them are live. That excludes those exclusively available from DCH, which are live of course. Also, only his early recordings were made in the studio, his latter recordings are all live.

Perhaps that should not be a surprise because, from what I have read, he tended to not overwork the details in rehearsals and let the players create the magic when they were on stage (or something along that line), therefore it makes sense to think that he preferred to record live performances.

In general, I prefer his latter recordings, which happen to be all live. Is there magic from his live performances that is lacking from his studio recordings? I'm not so sure. E.g. I think his studio Chicago #7 is quite magical, but so are his live #7 recordings with Berlin, Lucerne and Gustav Mahler Jugendorchester. On the other hand, his last concert in Berlin (Mendelssohn and Berlioz, no Mahler) is a rather stale affair. Therefore I wouldn't say his live recordings are "better".


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Becca said:


> There was an interesting incident captured on video during Abbado's first time rehearsing the 1st symphony with the Berlin Philharmonic which speaks to his more laid-back style (for want of a better description). At the part towards the end of the last movement where the horns are instructed to stand up, which they did, Abbado stopped the rehearsal and made a comment of (approx.) "I know that it's in the score but we won't be doing it."


The instructions in the score are hilarious although obviously meant seriously by Mahler and they might be relevant to balances (I don't know). Stand up, ye horns, point bells upwards! As loud as possible! The horns must be louder than the trumpets (if not loud enough, enforce horns with any odd additional brass at hand).


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Kreisler jr said:


> The instructions in the score are hilarious although obviously meant seriously by Mahler and they might be relevant to balances (I don't know). Stand up, ye horns, point bells upwards! As loud as possible! The horns must be louder than the trumpets (if not loud enough, enforce horns with any odd additional brass at hand).


I've seen the 1st done with horns doing what Mahler says and the effect is fantastic! It really makes a difference in the sound and is, or should be, electrifying. Some orchestras just stay seated and point the bells up and don't use so much right hand - not as effective sound-wise, but more comfortable for the players. Ignore Mahler's copious directions at your own peril!


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

mbhaub said:


> I've seen the 1st done with horns doing what Mahler says and the effect is fantastic! It really makes a difference in the sound and is, or should be, electrifying. Some orchestras just stay seated and point the bells up and don't use so much right hand - not as effective sound-wise, but more comfortable for the players. Ignore Mahler's copious directions at your own peril!


It's bells-up then (at 1:30) stand up...


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## feierlich (3 mo ago)

One of the first Mahler interpreters I got in touch with, not very convinced. His place among the great Mahlerians is a bit too overrated in my opinion. I've almost never returned to his recordings after I had a listen to Gielen's cycle with SWRSO.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Becca said:


> There was an interesting incident captured on video during Abbado's first time rehearsing the 1st symphony with the Berlin Philharmonic which speaks to his more laid-back style (for want of a better description). At the part towards the end of the last movement where the horns are instructed to stand up, which they did, Abbado stopped the rehearsal and made a comment of (approx.) "I know that it's in the score but we won't be doing it."


I remember this well. It would be a grave mistake to extrapolate this beyond the moment. Plenty of Abbado's Mahler is not at all "laid back" in terms of concerns of actual music, and not just showy effects, such as standing at the end of the finale of the First.

You'd never be able to tell in blind live listening nor from any recording whether the horns stood or not.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Knorf said:


> I remember this well. It would be a grave mistake to extrapolate this beyond the moment. Plenty of Abbado's Mahler is not at all "laid back" in terms of concerns of actual music, and not just showy effects, such as standing at the end of the finale of the First.
> 
> You'd never be able to tell in blind live listening nor from any recording whether the horns stood or not.


I was not attempting to make a point of this particular episode but rather a general indicator of his approach.


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## Mannheim Rocket (Aug 1, 2020)

I have enjoyed what I've heard, which is his 1st in Berlin and 7th in Chicago. As you said, all of his Mahler recordings are difficult to keep track of since he made them with several different orchestras. Annoyingly, when DG boxed them up, they included only the Berlin and Lucerne recordings and nothing else iirc. The only of his Mahler that I actually own is the Chicago 7th, which I got from a friend. They really need to put all of his Mahler in a box (I guess they are technically about to do this with the big Abbado box of everything).


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## Tarneem (Jan 3, 2022)

For me Abbado's recordings of Mahler are excellent (Of course) yet they ain't my favorite

I mostly prefers Bernstein's


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## Tarneem (Jan 3, 2022)

Tarneem said:


> For me Abbado's recordings of Mahler are excellent (Of course) yet they ain't my favorite
> 
> I mostly prefers Bernstein's especially when it comes to the 3rd and the 4th


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## Monsalvat (11 mo ago)

Mannheim Rocket said:


> I have enjoyed what I've heard, which is his 1st in Berlin and 7th in Chicago. As you said, all of his Mahler recordings are difficult to keep track of since he made them with several different orchestras. Annoyingly, when DG boxed them up, they included only the Berlin and Lucerne recordings and nothing else iirc. The only of his Mahler that I actually own is the Chicago 7th, which I got from a friend. They really need to put all of his Mahler in a box (I guess they are technically about to do this with the big Abbado box of everything).


Yes that box looks interesting, but I won't be getting it. Very expensive and I have _most_ of the recordings of his I want, with a few notable exceptions. I still don't actually own the Chicago Mahler Sixth, which I liked when I streamed it, though I think I like his Berlin reading a bit more than the Chicago one. And there is an earlier Brahms cycle (not the famous post-Karajan one from Berlin) from the early '70s with four different orchestras: the First symphony with the Vienna Philharmonic; the Second with the Berlin Philharmonic; the Third with the Staatskapelle Dresden; and the Fourth with the London Symphony Orchestra. And for the life of me, I cannot find a digital copy of the Third from that cycle! I don't know if it's any good, but it's a bit annoying to have three quarters of a Brahms cycle and not the full thing. So it is good that at least a digital copy will be out there and perhaps I'll be able to stream it once they release that box. The Mahler recordings are more well known so fans of his Mahler probably won't need to go to great extremes to find copies of his recordings. But it will be good to have his more obscure recordings released alongside the well-known ones.


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## sqorda (Aug 9, 2013)

His Vienna Ninth (1987) is very, very good. Not great soundwise. But much better recorded than Berlin. Haven’t heard Lucerne.

I think Abbado can be too controlled. Absolutely brilliant conductor. But almost a bit inhibited at times. I’m sure not everyone will agree. For deeper insights (in Mahler in particular) I normally turn to other conductors. But in this recording he just can’t help himself. It ain’t always pretty, but it’s involving. Very involving. Scorching, I would say.


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