# Newbie - Understanding orchestral music



## conclass (Jan 12, 2013)

Hi,

I would like to understand how a symphony is put together, the various forms that are involved in a movement etc etc. My understanding of music theory is very basic, but i thought about buying a few scores in order to try to follow the piece. I would think that a symphony from the classical era would be the right place to start, something like Mozart's symphony No. 40, at the the same that would be hard for me since my understanding of music notation is very limited.

What would you guys recommend?

Thank you!!!!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

You might start with this summary: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony

You can follow some of the hperlinks from there. You may want to check some other topics as well, such as "sonata form" and "theme and variations." BTW Mozart's Symphony #40 is an excellent example of what you're looking for, so check its entry as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._40_(Mozart)


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

conclass said:


> Hi,
> 
> I would like to understand how a symphony is put together, the various forms that are involved in a movement etc etc. My understanding of music theory is very basic, but i thought about buying a few scores in order to try to follow the piece. I would think that a symphony from the classical era would be the right place to start, something like Mozart's symphony No. 40, at the the same that would be hard for me since my understanding of music notation is very limited.
> 
> ...


You can get by with a very limited knowledge of notation, as you can simply follow the shape of the melodies. If you get lost temporarily, don't worry about it. The main thing for you is not to "read" the music per se but to help to to concentrate on what it sounds like, like watching a movie with subtitles.

Even better, you don't need to pay for anything. The internet has a vast treasure trove of public domain scores that have no copyright attached.

http://imslp.org/

If you're particularly interested in Mozart's 40, go here:
http://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_No.40_in_G_minor,_K.550_(Mozart,_Wolfgang_Amadeus)

Finally, don't worry if you feel that you "don't get it". Just enjoy what you hear.


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## conclass (Jan 12, 2013)

Thank you guys =)


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Check out Leonard Bernstein's Young People's Concerts series of DVDs. You can get them on Netflix or at your local public library.


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## conclass (Jan 12, 2013)

Is there any good site that i can buy scores?


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

You don't need to buy scores. Mahlerian directed you to IMSLP.ORG which is a free resource of tens of thousands of public domain scores.

I agree with learning about the Sonata form, add the Rondo form [although the latter is less important]. Learn about the various tonal conventions: Tonic-Dominant-Submediant...etc.

Also, it's a good idea to learn about the pitch limitations of each of the instruments. Listen to their timbre, and think about how their unique color is employed by the composer to convey the musical ideas.

There is an endless variety of symphonic/orchestral writings. Beginning with Haydn and Mozart will give you the basic structure of the symphonic form, structures which are systematically expanded by Beethoven, Mendelssohn, Schumann, Brahms, etc.


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

Following a full orchestral score is almost guaranteed to leave you quickly lost. Use your ears – and listen to a work or movement several times over until its parts sort of make sense.

The Symphony According to George:

A Classical symphony is almost always in 4 movements, disported as follows (and if you listen carefully, you can make out much of the following over time):

First movement (generally the weightiest): In “sonata” form. This is in general a series of conventions in which a theme or themes are introduced in a (shortish) section in the tonic and related keys. That whole introduction is repeated verbatim, just so you can fix them in your mind. Then comes a development section in which some of the themes are broken apart and the fragments are marched up and down stairs into relatively distant keys (this is where the “drama” happens). Then the introductory section comes back in slightly altered form to bring the themes back to some semblance of original normality and, through various modulatory legerdemain, brings the whole movement back to its starting key for a satisfactory resolution. 

Second movement: A slow movement (at least until Beethoven’s Ninth). Almost always a theme and variations. Listen for the theme. Listen for the variations. That’s that.

Third movement: A minuet or scherzo. A stately dance (in Haydn’s case, often with humorous rhythms) or a slightly faster, light movement, in three. The form consists usually of a binary dance (look up “binary form”) followed by a central section called a trio, ending with a repeat of the dance.

Finale: A fast, “leave ‘em smiling” push out the door. Very often a rondo, though sometimes a sonata. The rondo form consists of a fairly square but usually happy or light theme, that alternates with similarly long contrasting themes or sections – but the main theme periodically returns, is the anchor of the movement, and always ends it. 

Even symphonies after Beethoven often hew to this structure, although more and more symphonies diverge from it in odd ways.

cheers --


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

If you have an iPad get the app called The Orchestra. It's fantastic.


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## Rapide (Oct 11, 2011)

conclass said:


> Hi,
> 
> I would like to understand how a symphony is put together, the various forms that are involved in a movement etc etc. My understanding of music theory is very basic, but i thought about buying a few scores in order to try to follow the piece. I would think that a symphony from the classical era would be the right place to start, something like Mozart's symphony No. 40, at the the same that would be hard for me since my understanding of music notation is very limited.
> 
> ...


Mozart's mature symphonies might be a little challenging if one's music notation is "very limited". How about an early Mozart or early Haydn symphony? Any particular one could do, without the more complicated sonata development for instance that might make the read more difficult. Good luck and most important of all, enjoy the journey.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

bigshot said:


> Check out Leonard Bernstein's Young People's Concerts series of DVDs. You can get them on Netflix or at your local public library.


Or you can save your money and just watch them all on YouTube.


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## conclass (Jan 12, 2013)

Thanks everyone!


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## bejart (Nov 16, 2012)

For a survey course with a wide variety of examples, you might check this out: http://www.amazon.com/Symphony-The-Teaching-Company-3-part-Courses/dp/1565858824/ref=cm_cmu_pg_t

View attachment 11932


Bob Greenburg is pretty entertaining, and his enthusiasm is infectious, although sometimes he does get carried away wiht his own cleverness --


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## farmerjohn (Jan 24, 2013)

I am glad I have found this thread, as it means that I am not the only person who is baffled by some of the classical music conventions and jargon.
I am also a newbie where classical music is concerned.
I have always listened to pop music and I enjoy now listening to some classical stuff too and want to develop my knowledge a bit.
You'll have to pardon my ignorance but coming from a pop music background means that I probably have different preconceptions to someone who is a seasoned listener to classical music.

Why is it that symphonies nearly always have 4 movements and concertos always seem to have 3 movements?
In pop music some albums have 14 shortish tracks whilst others might have only 6 longer tracks.
In pop music there is no standard number of tracks on an album or anything so why should there be a standard number of movements in a symphony?
Why is it that classical composers seem to almost invariably stick so rigidly to a conventional basic structure?

Also, why is it that symphonies are traditionally named after a key?

Why do we say eg. Joe Bloggs' symphony number 1 in B flat?

Does this mean that all movements are in the same key? If so why?
In pop music not every song on an album would be in the same key, so why would different movements of a symphony all be in the same key?

Why not have Joe Bloggs' symphony number 1 in the keys of B flat, C and F minor for instance?

Again, excuse my ignorance. I just want to learn.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

> Again, excuse my ignorance. I just want to learn.


Don't worry about it. None of us are born knowing these things. Don't feel bad about not knowing them now.



farmerjohn said:


> Why is it that symphonies nearly always have 4 movements and concertos always seem to have 3 movements?


Convention. Symphonies used to have three movements, but soon they added a fourth and it's stuck. It's a good number for variety. Each movement has a different feel. In a concerto, the 3 movements are traditionally fast/heavy, slow, and fast/light. In a Symphony, the four movements are traditionally fast/heavy, slow, dance, and fast/light. This varies significantly by the individual work, though.



> In pop music some albums have 14 shortish tracks whilst others might have only 6 longer tracks.
> In pop music there is no standard number of tracks on an album or anything so why should there be a standard number of movements in a symphony?
> Why is it that classical composers seem to almost invariably stick so rigidly to a conventional basic structure?


They don't. It may be typical to have four movements, but there are symphonies with 2, 3, 5, 6, and more, they're just rarer. Also, the patterns used in the movements themselves tend to differ far more than any two (average) pop songs in terms of structure (verse/chorus/verse/chorus/bridge/chorus, all 8 or 16 bars of 4/4).



> Also, why is it that symphonies are traditionally named after a key?
> 
> Why do we say eg. Joe Bloggs' symphony number 1 in B flat?


Because it separates it from Joe Bloggs' symphony number 2 in F-sharp. If you're wondering why it doesn't have a title or nickname, like Beethoven's Pastoral, it's usually because the composer didn't have specific associations in mind while writing it, and any other title would simply be tacked on without any real justification.



> Does this mean that all movements are in the same key? If so why?


No. Usually at least one of them is in a different key, and the key will always change multiple times within each movement. It means that the overall key of the work is centered in that area, and the other keys used are within a certain "distance" of it.



> In pop music not every song on an album would be in the same key, so why would different movements of a symphony all be in the same key?


See above. Usually, pop songs don't modulate (change key), save for maybe a bridge or last chorus. Also, a symphony is all a single piece, despite the divisions. A pop/rock record is usually a collection of songs written at different times without the intent of being put together in a specific order.


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