# The I'm Addicted To Vaughan Williams Thread



## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

THE I'M ADDICTED TO VAUGHAN WILLIAMS THREAD








This thread is for people who are addicted to the music of Vaughan Williams. I think he is undoubtedly one of the greatest English composers that every walked this planet. That lyricism in combination with his ability to assimulate a wide range of music from English folk tunes to edgy Modernism is what makes his music compelling and awe-inspiring.

Please share your love for this composer's music here. I'm also interested in everybody's RVW collections, your favorite compositions and what moves you about them, etc.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

To get the ball rolling here is my RVW collection:

- Fantasies, The Lark Ascending, Five Variants on Wives
Orch: Acad. of St. Martin-in-the-Fields
Cond: Neville Marriner
Label: London (Decca)

- The Complete Symphonies (8-CD set)
Orch: London Philharmonic, New Philharmonia, London Symphony
Cond: Sir Adrian Boult
Label: EMI

- The Nine Symphonies (6-CD set)
Orch: London Symphony
Cond: Andre Previn
Label: RCA

-Symphonies 1-9; The Lark Ascending, etc. (7-CD set)
Orch: London Philharmonic
Cond: Bernard Haitink
Label: EMI

-The Nine Symphonies; Job (7-CD set)
Orch: Royal Liverpool Philharmonic, London Philharmonic
Cond: Vernon Handley
Label: EMI

-The Complete Symphonies (6-CD set)
Orch: Bournemouth Symphony
Cond: Kees Bakels, Paul Daniel
Label: Naxos

-A Sea Symphony
Orch: Atlanta Symphony
Cond: Robert Spano
Label: Telarc

-Sinfonica Antartica; 5 Variants of "Dives and Lazarus"
Orch: Philharmonia Orch. Of London
Cond: Leonard Slatkin
Label: RCA

-A London Symphony; Norfolk Rhapsody No. 1; Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis
Orch: Philharmonia Orch. Of London
Cond: Leonard Slatkin
Label: RCA

-Symphonies Nos. 8 & 9; Flourish for Glorious John
Orch: Philharmonia Orch. Of London
Cond: Leonard Slatkin
Label: RCA

-Symphonies 5 & 6
Orch: Philharmonia Orch. Of London
Cond; Leonard Slatkin
Label: RCA

-Symphonies 3 & 4; Fantasia on Greensleeves
Orch: Philharmonia Orch. Of London
Cond: Leonard Slatkin
Label: RCA

-A Sea Symphony
Orch: Philharmonia Orch. Of London
Cond: Leonard Slatkin
Label: RCA

-Symphonies 3 & 5
Orch: London Philharmonic, New Philharmonia
Cond: Sir Adrian Boult
Label: EMI

-Symphony No. 6; Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis; The Lark Ascending
Orch: BBC Symphony
Cond; Sir Andrew Davis
Label: Apex

-Symphonies; The Lark Ascending; Job; etc. {6-CD set)
Orch: BBC Symphony
Cond: Sir Andrew Davis
Label; Warner Classics

-Job; The Lark Ascending
Orch: Northern English Philharmonia
Cond: David Lloyd-Jones
Label: Naxos

-Concerto for Two Pianos; Symphony No. 5
Orch: Royal Philharmonic
Cond: Yehundi Menuhin
Label: Virgin Classics

-A Sea Symphony
Orch: London Symphony
Cond: Bryden Thomson
Label: Chandos

-Symphony No. 8, Partita for Double String Orch., Two-Hymn Tune Preludes, etc.
Orch: London Symphony
Cond: Bryden Thomson
Label: Chandos

-Complete Symphonies (5-CD set)
Orch: London Symphony
Cond: Bryden Thomson
Label: Chandos

-Complete Concertos (2-CD set)
Orch: London Symphony
Cond: Bryden Thomson
Label: Chandos

-Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis, The Lark Ascending, etc.
Orch: London Symphony
Cond: Bryden Thomson
Label: Chandos


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Not one of my favourite composers, most of his music seems to go along quite predictable lines.
That said, I can probably enjoy any RVW if it is conducted by Boult.

Nevertheless, I enjoy some of his more 'modernist' efforts, eg. Symphonies Nos. 4, 7, 8, 9. The last movement of the 6th is a great piece in itself, but on the whole I find that work rather incoherent, especially stylistically. I'm not a big fan of the more popular symphonies, they don't seem to offer anything as interesting for me.

I think that he was a better writer for string orchestra than for full orchestra. That's why I think works such as the _Tallis Fantasia & Partita for Double String Orchestra _are better than his symphonies, which (at worst) can sound much like mish-mash (eg. the 6th) or just a re-hash of something like Ravel (the 2nd).


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Andre said:


> I think that he was a better writer for string orchestra than for full orchestra. That's why I think works such as the _Tallis Fantasia & Partita for Double String Orchestra _are better than his symphonies, which (at worst) can sound much like mish-mash (eg. the 6th) or just a re-hash of something like Ravel (the 2nd).


How is "Symphony No. 2 - A London Symphony" a rehash of Ravel? As a Ravel fanatic and devoted follower of his music, I strongly disagree.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Listen to RVW's _A London Symphony _& you'll clearly hear that his orchestration is heavily borrowed from Ravel (esp. his pieces like the _Spanish Rhapsody_). The way he uses the strings & woodwind is exactly like Ravel, esp. in the slow & scherzo movements. Granted, there are other influences there as well, as in the march theme in the last movement, which is reminiscent of Brahms. & the orchestration of the first movement has moments out of Puccini.

But this is exactly what I find as a draw-back for RVW. It's not the issue that he was very eclectic in his influences, but the fact that his combination of them sometimes sounds like mish-mash & rehash. He himself acknowledged that he wasn't very original, I read a quote somewhere by him saying that 'music doesn't have to be original to be enjoyed.' Which is true, but when you compare him to more original voices like Holst & Britten, RVW has far less international standing due to this excuse...


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Andre said:


> Listen to RVW's _A London Symphony _& you'll clearly hear that his orchestration is heavily borrowed from Ravel (esp. his pieces like the _Spanish Rhapsody_). The way he uses the strings & woodwind is exactly like Ravel, esp. in the slow & scherzo movements. Granted, there are other influences there as well, as in the march theme in the last movement, which is reminiscent of Brahms. & the orchestration of the first movement has moments out of Puccini.
> 
> But this is exactly what I find as a draw-back for RVW. It's not the issue that he was very eclectic in his influences, but the fact that his combination of them sometimes sounds like mish-mash & rehash. He himself acknowledged that he wasn't very original, I read a quote somewhere by him saying that 'music doesn't have to be original to be enjoyed.' Which is true, but when you compare him to more original voices like Holst & Britten, RVW has far less international standing due to this excuse...


You make "A London Symphony" sound bad when it's not a bad piece of music at all. Every composer has influences, Andre. It's how that composer assimlates those influences that make the composer who he/she was destined to become.

Considering he studied orchestration with Ravel, of course, at some point in his writing there will be a Ravel influence that comes through, but as with everything RVW composed, it bares his unmistakable stamp. Ravel did point out himself that RVW was the only one of his students that didn't write his music.

I honestly think you're clutching at straws, Andre. RVW was a very original composer and a unique voice in British music. Look at your history books my friend, he's regarded as one of the most influential composers during his time and people are still infactuated with his music to this day. He's internationally recognized and with good reason, he was an outstanding composer.

I think *you are wrong* about RVW. He's the reason I'm so heavily involved with English music today. His music inspired me to continue to discover composers from the UK and has led me to some other great composers like Ireland, Bax, Bliss, Stanford (one of RVW's teachers), Holst, Parry (another one of RVW's teachers), Warlock, Finzi, Bridge, etc. I think this is a good thing, Andre and speaks of the power that RVW has over his listeners.


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## kg4fxg (May 24, 2009)

*I love it all...*

I like just about anything Vaughan Williams does but these two pieces are my favorite:

The Lark Ascending
Fantasia On a Theme By Thomas Tallis


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

kg4fxg said:


> I like just about anything Vaughan Williams does but these two pieces are my favorite:
> 
> The Lark Ascending
> Fantasia On a Theme By Thomas Tallis


"The Lark Ascending" is such a beautiful piece. It's refined, simplistic, but yet so emotionally complicated. It conjures up many emotions all at the same time.

"Fantasia On a Theme By Thomas Tallis" is also a beautiful piece of music.

I would say my RVW favorites are:

Job: A Masque For Dancing
A Sea Symphony
A Pastoral Symphony
A London Symphony
Symphony No. 5
Symphony No. 9
Concerto For Two Pianos
Oboe Concerto
The Lark Ascending
Flos Campi
Five Variants of Dives and Lazarus
In the Fen Country
Concerto Grosso
Fantasia On a Theme By Thomas Tallis

But I'm with you, kg4fxg, I like most everything RVW composed.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Well if you are a perceptive listener, you will pick up the influences & how a composer assimilates them, in any piece of classical music. I just tend to think that RVW tends to just throw everything in to his symphonies particularly, from Beethoven to Puccini, Ravel to Brahms, and old English composers like Tallis. It just doesn't appear to be as cohesive as it should be. I suppose the monothematic 4th is his most cohesive & tersely argued symphony. Unlike some of the others, it's all his, no mish mash or rehash in there.

But the bottom line is that if you read what RVW said of his own music, you'll notice an underlying acceptance of the what the critics of the time & since have said. So much of his music was 'cribbed' as he said from other composers that it's just not funny...


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Andre said:


> Well if you are a perceptive listener, you will pick up the influences & how a composer assimilates them, in any piece of classical music. I just tend to think that RVW tends to just throw everything in to his symphonies particularly, from Beethoven to Puccini, Ravel to Brahms, and old English composers like Tallis. It just doesn't appear to be as cohesive as it should be. I suppose the monothematic 4th is his most cohesive & tersely argued symphony. Unlike some of the others, it's all his, no mish mash or rehash in there.
> 
> But the bottom line is that if you read what RVW said of his own music, you'll notice an underlying acceptance of the what the critics of the time & since have said. So much of his music was 'cribbed' as he said from other composers that it's just not funny...


I don't believe what the critics say, Andre. All I believe is what I hear for myself and how I react to it. I could careless what RVW thought about his own music. We are our own worst critics and he certainly was his own. No question about it.

RVW was a composer who kept getting better and better. Granted, he was always a little rusty with orchestration, but like I have said many times this doesn't bother me in the slightest even though some of my favorite composers were some of the best orchestrators that ever lived: Ravel, Berlioz, Rimsky-Korsakov, R. Strauss, etc. A good orchestration is only icing on the cake.

Again, just because he composed a good deal of music that wasn't experimental doesn't mean he was a trite composer. You continue to clutch at straws my friend. I will say again look at your history books, he's regarded as one of the greatest composers of the 20th Century and with good reason.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I don't clutch at straws - let's agree that he wasn't the most original composer. I think that's objective fact, based on not only his own admissions, but what you can actually hear in the music. If you know Beethoven, Brahms, Puccini, Debussy, Ravel fairly well you will understand perfectly what I'm getting at.

No other composer, although they might be similarly eclectic, is so unsubtle - if there's such a word - as RVW in taking ways of composing from other composers & cobbling it all together. I'm talking about his symphonies here. I think, that (from the ones I've heard) Bax's symphonies were much more uniform, and although he was influenced by the Romantics & Impressionists, what you get in the end can only be Bax, nothing more, nothing less. The same cannot be said of RVW's Symphonies on the whole. He just doesn't assimilate his influences as individualistically as Bax. I think we can agree on this?


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Andre said:


> I don't clutch at straws - let's agree that he wasn't the most original composer. I think that's objective fact, based on not only his own admissions, but what you can actually hear in the music. If you know Beethoven, Brahms, Puccini, Debussy, Ravel fairly well you will understand perfectly what I'm getting at.
> 
> No other composer, although they might be similarly eclectic, is so unsubtle - if there's such a word - as RVW in taking ways of composing from other composers & cobbling it all together. I'm talking about his symphonies here. I think, that (from the ones I've heard) Bax's symphonies were much more uniform, and although he was influenced by the Romantics & Impressionists, what you get in the end can only be Bax, nothing more, nothing less. The same cannot be said of RVW's Symphonies on the whole. He just doesn't assimilate his influences as individualistically as Bax. I think we can agree on this?


I think RVW was a fine composer. He composed some great music and forged a unique style of his own.

Perhaps his symphonies aren't to your liking.

I think his symphonies get their message across despite whatever kind of problem you have with them. I feel something from them emotionally and so does a lot of other people.

Like I said, check your classical history books. He's regarded as one of the finest composers of the 20th Century.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

This had nothing to do with who you know is one of my favorite composers Varese. You are disagreeing with me just for the sake of it. My argument was based on what I have percieved in RVW's music, your's is based on what you judge to be my taste. As least I am forthright enough to keep from bringing in a totally irrelevant issue.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Andre said:


> This has nothing to do with who you know is one of my favourite composers Varese. You are disagreeing with me just for the sake of it. My argument was based on what I have percieved in RVW's music, your's is based on what you judge to be my taste.


What did you mentioning Bax's symphonies have to do with RVW's? By the way, I don't appreciate the ad homs. They have been reported.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> What did you mentioning Bax's symphonies have to do with RVW's? By the way, I don't appreciate the ad homs. They have been reported.


Bax & RVW were both contemporaries, symphonists and fellow countrymen absorbing similar influences, so it's logical, isn't it, to compare them?

About the ad homs, at least I am uprfont enough to say them but not to overtly put down other people's tastes in music like you do. This is primitive behaviour that doesn't belong here. If you like pushing people's buttons, well this is what you get. You are just getting the [solid human waste] that you dish out all the time to innocent bystanders like me, who enjoy rational argument, not crap like this...


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Andre said:


> Bax & RVW were both contemporaries, symphonists and fellow countrymen absorbing similar influences, so it's logical, isn't it, to compare them?
> 
> About the ad homs, at least I am uprfont enough to say them but not to overtly put down other people's tastes in music like you do. This is primitive behaviour that doesn't belong here. If you like pushing people's buttons, well this is what you get. You are just getting the [solid human waste] that you dish out all the time to innocent bystanders like me, who enjoy rational argument, not crap like this...


Sibelius and Nielsen were contemporaries too, but you don't see people comparing the two of them saying one composer's symphonies are better than the other, do you? That's just not something people should do. Just like your opinion of "A London Symphony" being a rehash of Ravel, I don't agree with that: why? Because nobody could imiitate Ravel....nobody. But there were plenty of composers who were influenced by RVW just like there were composers who were influenced by Ravel, Debussy, Brahms, Dvorak, Mahler, Sibelius, etc. You can't hide your influences and no composer should, but what a composer should strive for is forging a unique style that is his own and regardless if you agree or not, RVW did this in spades.

You can call me any name you want to Andre you have been reported twice. Why? Because you have chosen to go against forum rules and personally attack me.


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## Krummhorn (Feb 18, 2007)

Oh, bother ... Must we keep reminding members of the VERY simple rules here all the time? 

*Guidelines for General Behavior*
Be polite to your fellow members. If you disagree with them, please state your opinion in a »civil« and respectful manner. This applies to all communication taking place on talkclassical.com, whether by means of posts or private messages.

Do not post comments about other members person or »posting style« on the forum (unless said comments are unmistakably positive). Argue opinions all you like but do not get personal and never resort to »ad homs«."

We now return you to the thread topic ...


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## bdelykleon (May 21, 2009)

Andre said:


> No other composer, although they might be similarly eclectic, is so unsubtle - if there's such a word - as RVW in taking ways of composing from other composers & cobbling it all together.


I agree totally with this. RVW is a minor composer, he was not able to find a particular voice of himself.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

bdelykleon said:


> I agree totally with this. RVW is a minor composer, he was not able to find a particular voice of himself.


 Yeah he's a minor composer, that's why he's regarded as one of the finest and most influential English composers of all time. This is the kind of response I'd expect considering that you don't like his music anyway.


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## bdelykleon (May 21, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> he's regarded as one of the finest and most influential English composers of all time.


By whom? And why? Surely not due to the silly modality of the Sea symphony, nor the dull pot-pourri of nice melodies of the London symphony, compared to what other composers were doing at that time, this is quite embarrassing, RVW is the pure definition of a minor composer: using folkish tunes and folkish carachters and appealing to a national identity to overcome his total lack of invention.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

bdelykleon said:


> By whom? And why? Surely not due to the silly modality of the Sea symphony, nor the dull pot-pourri of nice melodies of the London symphony, compared to what other composers were doing at that time, this is quite embarrassing, RVW is the pure definition of a minor composer: using folkish tunes and folkish carachters and appealing to a national identity to overcome his total lack of invention.


Yeah, he's a minor composer because he used English folk tunes. Shame on him for doing that! I guess Bartok is rubbish too, because he used Hungarian folk tunes.  You can go to any online source that discusses classical music and open up any classical history book and they all speak of this composer's influence.

I think you're seriously clutching at straws much the same way Andre has, you just can't accept that he's an internationally recognized composer and that he has inspired people with his music. People love RVW and with good reason he's an amazingly gifted composer.

Brilliant composer...nuff said. Name 5 composers from your country that have had the impact RVW has had.


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## bdelykleon (May 21, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> I think you're seriously clutching at straws much the same way Andre has, you just can't accept that he's an internationally recognized composer and that he has inspired people with his music.
> 
> Brilliant composer...nuff said.


No, he's not. Just picked two of the most importante histories of music: Jean & Briggitte Massin and Grout and Palisca, and in the French he is mentioned once (Varèse more than 15 times) and in Grout twice (Varèse 6). So I really don't know what are your sources saying that he is one of the most important composers of the 20th century, academically surelly he's not, and like I showed you he doesn't get a foot outside the anglo-saxon world.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

bdelykleon said:


> and like I showed you he doesn't get a foot outside the anglo-saxon world.


Nor do any composers from your country. Again, name 5 composers from your country (Brazil) that have had the impact on Europe and the United States like RVW has.

By the way, I sent you a private message.


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## bdelykleon (May 21, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> Nor do any composers from your country. Again, name 5 composers from your country that have had the impact on Europe and the United States like RVW has.


Well, this has nothing to do with the thread.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

bdelykleon said:


> No, he's not. Just picked two of the most importante histories of music: Jean & Briggitte Massin and Grout and Palisca, and in the French he is mentioned once (Varèse more than 15 times) and in Grout twice (Varèse 6). So I really don't know what are your sources saying that he is one of the most important composers of the 20th century, academically surelly he's not, and like I showed you he doesn't get a foot outside the anglo-saxon world.


Your opinions of RVW don't phase me one bit, I still admire the composer just like admire Messiaen (whom I hate).

You can protest RVW all you want to, but since some of the best classical music ever composed came from Europe and Russia, I'm not too worried about your opinion anyway.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

bdelykleon said:


> Well, this has nothing to do with the thread.


The reason you can't is because there are no good composers from Brazil that are worth talking about.

Who do you guys have besides the terrible Villa-Lobos, who couldn't write a good melody to save his life?


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## bdelykleon (May 21, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> The reason you can't is because there are no good composers from Brazil that are worth talking about.
> 
> Who do you guys have besides the terrible Villa-Lobos, who couldn't write a good melody to save his life?


Sure he could:


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

Temporarily closed for (anticipated major) repairs.


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