# Brahms' 4th Symphony



## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

How do people rate this piece, say alongside Bruckner, Tchaikovsky, and Dvorak say? I can't stop listening to it and keep finding new things I hadn't noticed before. The ending of the 1st movement is particularly moving and I'll openly say that most of the symphony can reduce me to tears. 

What do other's think?


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## csacks (Dec 5, 2013)

To me, as everything from Johannes Brahms, an amazing combination of melody, harmony, intimacy and melancholia. It is not for free to be included in between the 3 great german B (Bach, Beethoven and Brahms). 
I do prefer the first, whose last movement makes me have sighs and flush (I am not kidding) when I first listen the main theme, but the forth is a spectacular demonstration of maturity and serenity. (not a surprise for somebody who wrote when he was 53, 9 years before his death). Not to tears, but right to the heart. (the second movement of the 1st sextet sometimes does)


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

All four are beautiful in their own way, and I could not do without any one of them. Of the composers you mentioned, Bruckner 9 and Dvorak 9 rank even higher with me, while Bruckner 8, Tchaikovsky 6 and his Manfred are on par with the Brahms symphonies. But the internal quality consistency of the Brahms cycle is unmatched.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

It's an excellent symphony, surely in there swinging with Dvorak's and Bruckner's.

It's a personal favourite for me because it was one of my introductions to classical music. I don't know if it's my favourite symphony these days, but it's probably my favourite 4th.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

I think it's the best late 19th century symphony, his next best for me is the 2nd.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

It is my favourite Brahms symphony but I do like the last movement of the 1st and the opening of that one too. I do put Brahms and Bruckner on par. They sculpt the music and how they did it I don't know but there is something sublime about every note they write.


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## ScipioAfricanus (Jan 7, 2010)

This symphony was my first favorite symphony by Brahms. During the aol days my email was [email protected]. But as I progressed I find that my favorite Brahms symphony is his 3rd.

Anyway back to the original question, this symphony ranks on par with all of Bruckner's symphonies and is even better than some of Bruckner's. But Bruckner's 7th, 8th and 9th, is a bit higher than it.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

A masterpiece, like all his symphonies.


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## Aurelian (Sep 9, 2011)

I think of E Minor as somber, but not particularly sad or tragic. Some of you have a more emotional reaction to this piece than I do.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

ScipioAfricanus said:


> This symphony was my first favorite symphony by Brahms. During the aol days my email was [email protected]. But as I progressed I find that my favorite Brahms symphony is his 3rd.
> 
> Anyway back to the original question, this symphony ranks on par with all of Bruckner's symphonies and is even better than some of Bruckner's. But Bruckner's 7th, 8th and 9th, is a bit higher than it.


I tend to agree, those three symphonies of Bruckner are something special. The last third of the 9th's 3rd movement is particularly emotional.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I would place Brahms 4th above everything by Bruckner, Tchaikovsky, and Dvorak except for Dvorak 9. I adore Brahms and actually like his 3rd slightly more than the 4th. I've heard people say Brahms lacked melody, and perhaps this is true of blatant stand out melodies, but I certainly view his music as melodic.


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## Winterreisender (Jul 13, 2013)

All of Brahms' symphonies are very good, but I would personally place #3 and #1 above #4. I am always a bit disappointed by the fourth movement of #4, because I find it completely lacking in melody, which is a shame because the rest of the symphony is full of melody.


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## Pip (Aug 16, 2013)

Only Brahms could have the courage to finish this greatest of all his symphonies with a Passacaglia for the last 
movement. Based on Bach's Cantata "Nach dir, Herr, verlanget mich" , this movement has such power and variety, even allowing for the strictures of the passacaglia motif, which is, more or less, a theme and variations and can lend itself to many diverse interpretations.
the two most exciting versions I know are by Furtwängler BPO 1949 and Carlos kleiber's commercial recording, both of whom take the final part of the coda at one in a bar giving the sting players apoplexy , however It sound's right.
There is an even more manic version by Furtwängler on the newsreel film of the finale of the last movement from a rehearsal with the BPO in London 1948. This can be found on YouTube. As can the kleiber


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## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

beetzart said:


> I tend to agree, those three symphonies of Bruckner are something special. The last third of the 9th's 3rd movement is particularly emotional.


The ending is sublime, as is the first fortissimo statement of the main theme: it is as if in the start Bruckner was contemplating death and made somber by it, but then held his head up high and said: "I'll face it with dignity!"

And don't forget the great Furtwängler 1943 recording of Brahms' fourth! Excellent performance too.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Cheyenne said:


> The ending is sublime, as is the first fortissimo statement of the main theme: it is as if in the start Bruckner was contemplating death and made somber by it, but then held his head up high and said: "I'll face it with dignity!"


That's a good way of describing it. I liken it to approaching a cliff edge and at that moment, the moment, it is as if he has slung himself off the cliff and died. But he is still here in spirit and signs off with that beautiful tied note and tiny bit of brass.


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2013)

Bruckner wishes he could write a Brahms 4


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## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

I would guess that: the more ear-catchingly beautiful a melody, the less one wants to take it apart in development. I understand that Brahms was pretty fond of development. Perhaps the opening theme of the 4th sounds a little schematic and wooden. But I'd think as with many fugue subjects, practical reasons dictate their structure. The main subject of Bach's Art of the Fugue or the fugue subject in Beethoven's op. 110, for instance, are not particularl melodic either.

I suppose Brahms needed functional themes that lent themselves to all kinds of variations. And working, as Brahms did, in predominantly traditional tonality with little chromatic leeway, the restrictions on the melodic freedom were probably even tighter.

I see Brahms as a follower in the tradition of Beethoven. Bruckner, on the other hand, is much closer to Schubert's approach, which, I find, is more reliant on melody than on developmental fury.

Among Brahms, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky and Bruckner, I feel that Brahms is the most clever, Dvorak the most affable, Tchaikovsky the most ecstatic and Bruckner the most solemn. Different qualities and therefore impossible to rank.

Similarly, I wouldn't know how to properly compare Brahms 4 to Bruckner 8 and Tchaikovsky 6. They are, to me, totally different in terms of intention, technique, design and psycholgical content. But I would consider each of them pinnacles of their respective domains.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

I wonder how much stress these composers were under when writing symphonies. Not so much on what people might think, but satisfying themselves. Bruckner was well known for constant revision and must have fought a terrible inner battle. I can't imagine how hard it would be have been to compose a symphony back then that is still so enduring today and will be for many more years. I suspect none were ever completely at peace with themselves. To have such a talent must have been offset by terrible mental turmoil. Out of the millions of people alive at the time only a minuscule minority had the wherewithal to produce such beauty. I wonder why that is.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

beetzart said:


> I wonder how much stress these composers were under when writing symphonies. Not so much on what people might think, but satisfying themselves.


Brahms was seemingly relaxed about composing symphonies. Asked once how he had spent his day, he replied: "I worked on a symphony. In the morning I added an eighth-note. In the afternoon I took it out."


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

Pip said:


> Only Brahms could have the courage to finish this greatest of all his symphonies with a Passacaglia for the last
> movement. Based on Bach's Cantata "Nach dir, Herr, verlanget mich" , this movement has such power and variety, even allowing for the strictures of the passacaglia motif, which is, more or less, a theme and variations and can lend itself to many diverse interpretations.


Yes, you are right, for me this is the highest point of his symphonic works.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

His 4th is his greatest symphony, IMO. Listening to the second movement reminds me of riding a ferry boat in Denmark through the fog-mysterious and nostalgic.


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

Winterreisender said:


> All of Brahms' symphonies are very good, but I would personally place #3 and #1 above #4. I am always a bit disappointed by the fourth movement of #4, because I find it completely lacking in melody, which is a shame because the rest of the symphony is full of melody.


I respect your opinion but I'm kind of shocked that you don't like the 4th movement. It is definitely one of the greatest pieces of music ever in my book. Such a powerful and moving movement. I once read a nice analysis of it in which they compared it to Bach's masterful Ciaconna for solo violin in it's scope and depth of feeling.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I agree. The fourth movement is absolutely astonishing orchestral writing. Absolutely dazzling!

No melody? Tell that to the wind section, a few bars in!


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## ScipioAfricanus (Jan 7, 2010)

arcaneholocaust said:


> Bruckner wishes he could write a Brahms 4


haha you wanna start something don't you


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## ScipioAfricanus (Jan 7, 2010)

KenOC said:


> Brahms was seemingly relaxed about composing symphonies. Asked once how he had spent his day, he replied: "I worked on a symphony. In the morning I added an eighth-note. In the afternoon I took it out."


Brahms was known for these notorious lies. Brahms is one person whose composing technique was arduous. Music just didn't flow profusely from his pen.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

For Brahms, composing seemed to be arduous. He tore up a lot of pages. The ones he threw away became Bruckner, I guess.


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## ScipioAfricanus (Jan 7, 2010)

hpowders said:


> For Brahms, composing seemed to be arduous. He tore up a lot of pages. The ones he threw away became Bruckner, I guess.


nah, the ones he threw away became his double concerto. a truly boring piece of work.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

ScipioAfricanus said:


> nah, the ones he threw away became his double concerto. a truly boring piece of work.
> 
> [/QUOTE
> 
> I never liked it either.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I think the double is Brahms's least popular concerto. Without arguing its position (after all, it's in with some intimidating company) it certainly sounds fine to me. I heard possibly the best performance of it in my experience last year, Dudamel and the Capucon brothers.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

beetzart said:


> How do people rate this piece, say alongside Bruckner, Tchaikovsky, and Dvorak say? I can't stop listening to it and keep finding new things I hadn't noticed before. The ending of the 1st movement is particularly moving and I'll openly say that most of the symphony can reduce me to tears.
> 
> What do other's think?


I don't think anything Bruckner wrote gets close to the Brahms E minor. Ditto Dvorak. With Tchaikovsky it's an apples and oranges thing for me. Comparative rating just doesn't scan. I think it is the best thing Brahms wrote for orchestra.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

I thing Bruckner gets close with some and surpasses with maybe his last three symphonies, although on par, perhaps. Yet, for me, right now, I am tending to think Brahms' 4th is possibly the greatest ever music known to mankind. I have been listening to it for past three weeks and am yet to tire of a single note. Also, for the past 14 months I have listened to mainly Bruckner everyday. 

I can't decide. I suppose it is impossible to do so as well. Although I do rate Brahms and Bruckner above Mahler, Dvorak, and Tchaikovsky, but out of those three I love Tchaikovsky the most.


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

Does anyone find Brahms' symphonies as strings heavy?

( The 3rd movement is the best)


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

It's the strings, especially the lower voices, that give the Brahms' symphonies their distinctive charm.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

peeyaj said:


> Does anyone find Brahms' symphonies as strings heavy?
> 
> ( The 3rd movement is the best)


I've read that when an orchestra plays Brahms most of the musicians are happy with their parts.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

mmsbls said:


> I would place Brahms 4th above everything by Bruckner, Tchaikovsky, and Dvorak except for Dvorak 9. I adore Brahms and actually like his 3rd slightly more than the 4th. I've heard people say Brahms lacked melody, and perhaps this is true of blatant stand out melodies, but I certainly view his music as melodic.


Yes. However, I like Brahms' 4th the best, followed by the 1st. Don't really care for Brahms 2nd or 3rd.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I was about to write "I agree!!" to the poster directly above this one. Glad I didn't because that poster was ME!!! LOL!!!


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2014)

hpowders said:


> Yes. However, I like Brahms' 4th the best, followed by the 1st. Don't really care for Brahms 2nd or 3rd.


If you hadn't said you posted that, I would have thought it was me.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Jerome said:


> If you hadn't said you posted that, I would have thought it was me.


 I played Brahms' Fourth again this morning (Munch, Boston Symphony) and it just confirms what I believe, that in this symphony he climbs to the compositional summit: astonishing command of melody, harmony and complex rhythms.


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