# For love of the Baroque...



## Ingélou

For love of the Baroque, I vow to undertake a delightful project...










If you love Baroque music - you will know about that sense of connection with all the beauty in the Universe when you listen to it.

I was idly looking at the Wiki list of baroque composers:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Baroque_composers

I had never heard of the first on the list - Jacopo Peri ((1561-1633) - and at first could find no examples of his work on YouTube. Then I looked up his Wiki biography and located this link for his opera Euridice:






I started to listen - and a wonderful voice spoke to me out of the past, saying 'I was once alive, like you, and now I reach out to you from Eternity, your destination too...'

Then I thought that I haven't seen much on TC lately about the Beauties of the Baroque.

I am going to try and listen to items from the Wiki list in chronological order and write about my experiences, and I would love it if you, dear reader & Baroque-Lover, could post *your* listening experiences using composers from the list, though not necessarily in order - unless you want to.

You might also like to highlight baroque composers who have somehow not appeared on the list, if any there be.

I invite you also - or as an alternative - to post on this thread any new discoveries you have made, and/or any observations on baroque music that occur to you.

Just wondering now whether to change the thread title to Baroque Epiphanies - 
but no, *Amor Vincit Omnia*!


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## classical yorkist

I too love the baroque, it holds many mysteries in it's music and is always challenging me to unravel them. It is an odyssey that can never be completed and I am all the happier upon realising that. That is truly my baroque epiphany.


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## Guest

I recommend the magnificent music of Cavalli from 17th century Italy:






I recently showed my grand daughter the clip of the dancing bear and the commedia character, which occurs here at circa *5:25* and she loved it!!


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## classical yorkist

I've made a new baroque discovery today; Johann Adam Reincken. Wow, amazing music but so little preserved for posterity.


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## Taggart

One of the beginnings of the Baroque in England is the Fitzwilliam Virginal book. So I'll start there with a range of composers to choose from. One of the more interesting is Peter Phillips. He feld to Europe because of anti-Catholic persecution in England. After the death of his wife, he became a Jesuit. He travelled extensively in Europe and met many composers including Sweelinck and Frescobaldi. As well as much sacred music he also wrote a range of secular compositions.











He also wrote a pavan on the passamezzo ground here played on a range of recorders


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## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> I've made a new baroque discovery today; Johann Adam Reincken. Wow, amazing music but so little preserved for posterity...


I've just listened, and it's lovely. Thank you for sharing your discovery! :tiphat:

So much doesn't survive - Jacopo Peri's first opera Dafne, the very first ever, doesn't for example. Oh for a time machine to go and listen to some of these lost items.


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## Ingélou

I finished listening to Peri's Euridice - just the music, and it's hard to imagine that the performance can be very dramatic, as it's really just one long song - but what a song. Hauntingly beautiful and melancholic.

Because it was written to celebrate the marriage of Henri IV and Marie de Medici, the opera has a happy ending - Orpheus wins his wife back and the nymphs and shepherds rejoice!

Looking into Peri's life, I see that he collaborated with Giulio Cacchini, who didn't make the Wiki list, (unless I'm missing something) and who will therefore be my next port of call. His esteemed daughter Francesca didn't either, although I've been told that she was better than Barbara Strozzi, whose songs I love. But I think that much of her work has been lost.

Another point that occurs to me, after reading about Jacopo Peri's life, is that this thing where you had to please patrons had a real downside - the rival who was trying to cut you up. Cacchini was ten years older than Peri and because his daughter was singing he took over some of the writing - then rushed out his own version of Euridice so that he could claim to have published the first opera!


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## Mandryka

The style of the music by Peter Phiips is _prima facie_ so different from the style of that fugue by Reincken, I wonder if much is served by putting them in the same category ("baroque")

Peter Philips's music is so sweet I've never heard a performance which is less than alluring.


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## classical yorkist

Mandryka said:


> The style of the music by Peter Phiips is _prima facie_ so different from the style of that fugue by Reincken, I wonder if much is served by putting them in the same category ("baroque")
> 
> Peter Philips's music is so sweet I've never heard a performance which is less than alluring.


You know I was thinking exactly the same thing this morning. 'Baroque' is too monolithic a label for a period that lasts roughly 150 years and encompasses such wildly varying styles.


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## Taplow

I am constantly amazed by how much more there is to discover in the baroque that is still relatively unknown. Astounded also that therein lies beauty largely untapped by major labels and performers. Thank you for this thread. I've already learned one new name I never heard before (Reincken) and have added some recordings of his works to my wishlist. I look forward to discovering more.

I have always felt that the determination of the start of the baroque period as around 1600 to be somewhat arbitrary. We seem to love labels, but a label such as this, or 'classical' or 'romantic', also foments the expectation of some sudden and dramatic change in style. This just doesn't happen in the real word. Much early baroque music is, to me, still firmly rooted in the styles of the renaissance. There are strong echoes of the renaissance in the music of Monteverdi, for example. Indeed, there is also much late renaissance music that bears the hallmarks of early baroque—I am thinking primarily of complex counterpoint and rudimentary ornamentation—while still sounding essentially renaissance. The samples of the music of Peter Philips provided by Taggart, above, sound to me not too far removed from that of Holborne or Dowland. Was English music of the time somewhat more conservative and resistant to change than music on the continent? I doubt it.

Please keep this thread going with new suggestions and discoveries.


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## classical yorkist

I'm probably preaching to the converted here, and excuse me if I sound patronising, but I feel that Sweelinck's Chromatic Fantasy has to be posted in here just in case we have newcomers to the baroque checking this thread out. I adore Sweelinck and think his music is groundbreaking and exemplifies what the baroque is about and lays so many foundations for what is to follow.


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## Mandryka

Taggart said:


> One of the more interesting is Peter Phillips. . . .He travelled extensively in Europe and met many composers including Sweelinck and Frescobaldi.


Interesting to think about what Philips got out of the connection to Frescobaldi, or vice versa. I think I can hear an affinity between the composers in the way Vartolo plays the toccate Bk 2 - but I'm not sure.


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## Ingélou

Mandryka said:


> The style of the music by Peter Phiips is _prima facie_ so different from the style of that fugue by Reincken, I wonder if much is served by putting them in the same category ("baroque")


I agree. Dates are no guide. The opera by Jacopo Peri sounds baroque, yet it dates from 1600. The English music from this date sounds firmly 'Renaissance' to my ears. (Lovely, though!)

For the purposes of this thread, please discuss any music that usually comes under the label of 'baroque', even if like Monteverdi they are really an amphibious beast.

I love Early Music, Renaissance Music and Baroque, so the label doesn't really bother me.

It might be interesting if someone with a bit of knowledge could describe the 'usual characteristics' of baroque compared with what came before and after. But there'll always be composers who straddle the various epochal styles or who are just *themselves*.


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## Taggart

Taplow said:


> I am constantly amazed by how much more there is to discover in the baroque that is still relatively unknown. Astounded also that therein lies beauty largely untapped by major labels and performers. ...
> 
> I have always felt that the determination of the start of the baroque period as around 1600 to be somewhat arbitrary. We seem to love labels, but a label such as this, or 'classical' or 'romantic', also foments the expectation of some sudden and dramatic change in style. This just doesn't happen in the real word. Much early baroque music is, to me, still firmly rooted in the styles of the renaissance. .... Was English music of the time somewhat more conservative and resistant to change than music on the continent? I doubt it.


The English in the early 17th century specialised in the viol consort - think Coprario, Byrd, Jenkins, Ward or Ferrabosco - all English. They all developed out of the English madrigal movement with links to both viol consorts and keyboard works. Jenkins in the 1640's was reviving the _In Nomine_ which was also taken up by Purcell. The big change did not come until the Restoration in 1660 when Charles II brought in the violin in imitation of Louis XIV's Les Vingt-quatre Violons du Roi. However even in 1665 Simpson was writing _The Division Viol_ although the violinist and composer Banister was also writing divisions for the violin at the same period.

That barely scratches the surface of early 17th century English music but it *was* a fairly conservative period.


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## Gaspard de la Nuit

I stopped playing the piano 5-6 years ago but back then I had very, very little appreciation for the baroque.....I just started getting really into it. I made the thread about Wanda Landowska, if you saw it, and her Bach, Rameau and Couperin (unfortunately she didn't record so much Couperin) are the creme of the crop, for any keyboard instrument.

I can't get enough of the baroque keyboard....Purcell, The Fitzwilliam Virginal Book, Buxtehude, Couperin, Rameau, J.S. Bach....

Having been a music student for a period of time....I'm quite aware that 80% of what people will learn, hear or play from the baroque is J.S. Bach.....and I think this worked to greatly diminish my experience of Bach's music, that it had become so commonplace. Put in context, played alongside the other baroque composers, you can really see it from a better angle. Also it sounds better played on a deluxe harpsichord, IMO.


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## Mandryka

Peter Philips is really quite early -- wiki says he was born in 1560 and died when he was 60 years old. Maybe the closest continental comparison is Titelouze and Ascanio Mayone, or perhaps Giovanni de Macque. Is Philips's keyboard music more backward looking than Titelouze's or Mayone's or de Macque's? I can't answer that off the cuff, it's a hard question. Just from informal listening the toccatas in Trabaci's Bk 1 (1603) sound very Peter Philips like to me. 

Or Frescobaldi? He's a generation later really, there's a 20 year age gap. There's nothing quite like the Cento Partite in Philips, but you've got to bear in mind that it's a late work. Having said that, there's nothing like the 9th or 11th toccatas form Bk 2 either-- Frescobaldi's just the better composer!


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## Taggart

In the UK the ABRSM piano syllabus leans heavily on Bach, Handel and Scarlatti with some Vivaldi, Purcell and Telemann for variety. The Baroque keyboard albums published by ABRSM are actually aimed at harpsichord players and cover the full range from Albinoni to Zipoli although they can also be used by piano players. Interestingly, they are actually considerably harder (technically) to play on a piano than on a harpsichord.

We are lucky to have a local Baroque group who specialise in the wilder reaches of English Baroque - Boyce, Blow, Mudge, Avison and others.

We're also lucky to have English Touring Opera who will be at both Norwich and Snape (Aldeburgh) doing Rameau's Dardanus this year.

Philips' dates are almost the same as Sweelinck who whose work straddled the end of the Renaissance and beginning of the Baroque eras. What's interesting is that Philips is writing pavans and galliards upon grounds in a way that looks backwards rather than forwards.


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## classical yorkist

I listened to some Antonio Soler this morning and I really, really not like it. Far too galante for my taste, sickly sweet urgh. I turned him off and put some Purcell Fantasias on and immediately felt much better.


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## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> I listened to some Antonio Soler this morning and I really, really not like it. Far too galante for my taste, sickly sweet urgh. I turned him off and put some Purcell Fantasias on and immediately felt much better.


Keep taking the medicine!


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## Taggart

classical yorkist said:


> I listened to some Antonio Soler this morning and I really, really not like it. Far too galante for my taste, sickly sweet urgh. I turned him off and put some Purcell Fantasias on and immediately felt much better.


I think the warning should be that they named an ice cream after him


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## Mandryka

classical yorkist said:


> I listened to some Antonio Soler this morning and I really, really not like it. Far too galante for my taste, sickly sweet urgh. I turned him off and put some Purcell Fantasias on and immediately felt much better.


Isn't he a bit like Scarlatti?


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## Taggart

Mandryka said:


> Isn't he a bit like Scarlatti?


Wiki suggests he _may_ have studied under Scarlatti. He's late Baroque to early classical writing both keyboard and liturgical music. Listen to a fandango by each of them and you will be aware that Soler is making much more of the harmonic background and is more classical whereas Scarlatti's is much leaner and more Baroque.


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## tdc

Speaking of Spanish Baroque I have a fondness for the guitar pieces of Gaspar Sanz. Not especially weighty stuff, but music I none the less find delightful and joyous. For me it has a simple, noble beauty that goes right to the heart.


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## Ingélou

Ingélou said:


> I finished listening to Peri's Euridice - just the music, and it's hard to imagine that the performance can be very dramatic, as it's really just one long song - but what a song. Hauntingly beautiful and melancholic.
> 
> Looking into Peri's life, I see that he collaborated with Giulio Cacchini...
> Cacchini was ten years older than Peri and because his daughter was singing he took over some of the writing - then rushed out his own version of Euridice so that he could claim to have published the first opera!


When I began listening to Giulio Cacchini's version of Euridice, because of the accompanying instruments I found it less haunting in its beauty than Jacopo Peri's. Given the history of the two versions, the rivalrous collaboration between Cacchini & Peri and the former's rush to get his version printed first, it's no surprise that the dominant melodies are the same.

However, this production of Cacchini's Euridice by Scherzi Musicali has more animated singing as well as lovely instrumentation, and there seem to be more 'tunes' too - after a while I found it very engaging & I am contemplating buying the cd if it's still available.

It was Peri's idea, but Cacchini snatched it and ran with it...

Now to have a listen to Cacchini's daughter Francesca, maybe better known than him as female composers were so thin on the ground. There are a few items on YouTube, though, as seems typical, her most well-known pieces are duplicated.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=f...__TWAhWIKsAKHYB1BfkQ_AUICigB&biw=1203&bih=865

I do hope that I find her a good composer, and not just a Token Woman on the Baroque Long List (she isn't on the original Wiki list of the OP).


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## Ingélou

Ingélou said:


> Now to have a listen to Cacchini's daughter Francesca, maybe better known than him as female composers were so thin on the ground. There are a few items on YouTube, though, as seems typical, her most well-known pieces are duplicated.
> 
> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=f...__TWAhWIKsAKHYB1BfkQ_AUICigB&biw=1203&bih=865


Ooh, this one - Ciacciona - is fab: full of life, and what a catchy rhythm. 
One to put on when I'm feeling a bit jaded.


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## Marinera

Never heard either composers' Euridice. I'm not even sure I've heard of Peri. So I sampled each work and initially kept on listening to Caccini's Euridice, then switched to Peri's version, and can't have enough of it. I don't think I 'd prefer one work over other since they're quite different, depends if you are in the mood for more austere or lush sound. Although I have to say Caccini's composition sounds more attractive immediately, while with Peri you have to listen to the music a little bit longer to let it mesmerise you.

Update: I've listened a little to Alessandrini's recording of Caccini's Euridice and it sounds very different to the performance directed by Nicholas Achten (on youtube and the one that I prefer). I sometimes forget how much depends on various arrangements and performance.


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## Guest

For the love of music !!!!!!


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## classical yorkist

Sometimes I think you could listen to a different baroque composer everyday of your life and not run out. This music just nourishes my soul.






http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Isabella_Leonarda


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## Ingélou

I'm halfway through listening to Francesca Caccini's opera, and I'm loving it. The melodies are so beautiful and the singing is very good, in my opinion. 
(I'd quite like to buy this cd, but it doesn't seem to be available now. A more recent one is, but I don't know if it's as good.)











The Wiki list that I included in my OP, and that I am working through, as a joy not a duty, doesn't include either Francesca Caccini or her father Giulio. Not surprising, perhaps, as there are so many baroque composers - very few could make the Short List.

I'm happy to say that Talk Classical now has its own composer guestbooks on both Caccinis:

Giulio Caccini (1551 - 1618)

Francesca Caccini (1587 - 1641)

Thank you, Taggart! :tiphat:


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## chesapeake bay

I've been on a Baroque soprano kick lately and since you mentioned Francesca Cacchini I thought I'd add Barbara Strozzi, another fine Baroque composer, mostly for soprano


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## Ingélou

^^^^ Thanks, chesapeake bay! :tiphat:
I love Barbara Strozzi, and I particularly love this song, Che si può fare.

Even in English, the lyrics are so apposite to the melody too - so moving.

*What can one do
if the rebel stars
have no pity;
what can be done
if heaven has
no peaceful influence
to soothe my sorrows; 
what can one say
from the stars disasters
rain upon me at all hours;
what can be said
if perfidious love
denies the slightest repose
to my martyrdom;
what can be said?
That is how it goes with perverse destiny,
that condemns the innocent,
so too constancy that most trusted gold
and, oh, it nonetheless need be
purified at every hour
by the flames of my sorrows.
﻿*


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## Taggart

The Strozzis and Caccinis are interlinked.

Piero Strozzi was another member of the camerata and played an important intellectual role in fostering the "new music" during the late 16th century. He was supportive of Giulio Caccini and commissioned several works by the composer. 

Guilio Strozzi (Barbara's father) was a librettist working with Claudio Monteverdi, Francesco Cavalli, Francesco Manelli, and Francesco Sacrati. He was keen to get preference at the Medici court. Barbara was a singer and trained with Cavalli who was a pupil of Monteverdi.

So Guilio Strozzi would have been known to Francesca Caccini as he was supplying libretti to many of the other composers working in Venice.

Venice at this time, with all the developments in music, is really the birthplace of the Baroque style.


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## Mandryka

Is Frescobaldi a baroque composer? Anyway, these past few days I've been very impressed by Vartolo's Frescobaldi, especially the later music, the toccatas Bk 2. To me he makes them sound like madrigals for keyboard: rich in suspensions and other expressive devices, singable tempos. Here's one


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## Taggart

Frescobaldi links Renaissance and Baroque. I would certainly include him. He taught Johann Jakob Froberger. Bach is known to have owned a number of Frescobaldi's works, including a manuscript copy of Frescobaldi's Fiori musicali (Venice, 1635), which he signed and dated 1714 and performed in Weimar the same year. Frescobaldi's influence on Bach is most evident in his early choral preludes for organ.


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## Ingélou

Mandryka said:


> Is Frescobaldi a baroque composer? Anyway, these past few days I've been very impressed by Vartolo's Frescobaldi, especially the later music, the toccatas Bk 2. To me he makes them sound like madrigals for keyboard: rich in suspensions and other expressive devices, singable tempos. Here's one...


No time to listen now, but I'm looking forward to this. Thank you! :tiphat:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

PS Am listening now - the sound is delicate & melodic, and I'm loving it. However, I see what you mean by your opening question, as the arrangements sound quite 'renaissance' to me.

I suppose he must be one of these borderline-baroque wallahs. Labels are not totally helpful, are they, in discussing music.

For the purposes of the thread, any composer who is regularly considered as 'baroque' or 'early-baroque' is fair game for discussion. Frescobaldi appears on the Wiki list of Baroque Composers that I cite in my OP, and I'm very glad to have had the opportunity to listen to this fab YT video.

I shall listen to more of him, after I've finished with the Caccinis (a byway) and then with Sweelinck, Monteverdi and Allegri, who come between Peri and Frescobaldi on the Wiki list.

Thanks to everyone who has posted on this thread so far, whether with observations or links to music or both. Thanks for being keepers of the Baroque Flame on Talk Classical! :tiphat:


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## Mandryka

Taggart said:


> Frescobaldi links Renaissance and Baroque. I would certainly include him. He taught Johann Jakob Froberger. Bach is known to have owned a number of Frescobaldi's works, including a manuscript copy of Frescobaldi's Fiori musicali (Venice, 1635), which he signed and dated 1714 and performed in Weimar the same year. Frescobaldi's influence on Bach is most evident in his early choral preludes for organ.


And yet, if you listen to Trabaci's Book 2 - earlier than Frescobaldi - he sounds more baroque to me! Trabaci Bk 1 is Renaissance style I'd say. FRescobaldi's later music seems to me a thing apart, sui generis. Do you know what music by Frescobaldi Bach owned apart from Fiori Musicale?

I'd say one of the high points of Fiori Musicale are the levitation toccatas, as far as I know Bach didn't write dissonant music in quite the same way, or am I forgetting something?


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## Taggart

Mandryka said:


> And yet, if you listen to Trabaci's Book 2 - earlier than Frescobaldi - he sounds more baroque to me! Trabaci Bk 1 is Renaissance style I'd say. FRescobaldi's later music seems to me a thing apart, sui generis. Do you know what music by Frescobaldi Bach owned apart from Fiori Musicale?
> 
> I'd say one of the high points of Fiori Musicale are the levitation toccatas, as far as I know Bach didn't write dissonant music in quite the same way, or am I forgetting something?


Not directly but there are links between Frescobaldi's _Ricercare e Canzoni Francesi_ of 1615 and, for example, the fugue in C# minor from the first part of the WTC. This echoes the theme from Frescobaldi's Ricercar primo transposed down from D to C# with a raised leading tone to correspomd to 18th century practice.


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## Mandryka

You baroque wallahs may well enjoy this new release from Brilliant, I did


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## Mandryka

Taggart said:


> Not directly but there are links between Frescobaldi's _Ricercare e Canzoni Francesi_ of 1615 and, for example, the fugue in C# minor from the first part of the WTC. This echoes the theme from Frescobaldi's Ricercar primo transposed down from D to C# with a raised leading tone to correspomd to 18th century practice.


It would be interesting to know more about Bach's library, the marginalia etc. I would like to buy an edition of his bible in English, there is one published in the USA but they're all a bit too expensive to get over here in the U.K.


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## Taggart

Have a look at https://www.amazon.co.uk/J-S-Bach-S...&qid=1508569934&sr=1-1&keywords=9780570013297 - doesn't seem that bad. OK it's only Bach's notes rather than the whole book, but it does include some discussion.


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## Ingélou

I've finished listening to Francesca Caccini's 'La liberazione di Ruggiero dall'isola d'Alcina' (1996) Pro Musica Camerata (see post #29 above).The music is beautiful - though I didn't get much sense of its being a 'comic opera' as it says in Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_liberazione_di_Ruggiero & I don't know how stage-worthy it is.

Now for *Sweelinck*, the next on the OP Wiki list. But when I look on YouTube - help!

Where to start? Do any of you baroque-lovers have any advice for me? :tiphat:


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## classical yorkist

Ingélou said:


> Now for *Sweelinck*, the next on the OP Wiki list. But when I look on YouTube - help!
> 
> Where to start? Do any of you baroque-lovers have any advice for me? :tiphat:


Sweelinck is a forgotten giant in the history of baroque, the wellspring from which so much later music flows. I would recommend listening to his organ and keyboard music, but primarily his organ works. Sweelinck was organist at the Oude Kerk in Amsterdam. I linked a recording of his Fantasia Chromatica on page 1, the importance of which in the history of music cannot be overestimated. The inventor of fugue? A huge influence on Bach.


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## Mandryka

Ingélou said:


> I've finished listening to Francesca Caccini's 'La liberazione di Ruggiero dall'isola d'Alcina' (1996) Pro Musica Camerata (see post #29 above).The music is beautiful - though I didn't get much sense of its being a 'comic opera' as it says in Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_liberazione_di_Ruggiero & I don't know how stage-worthy it is.
> 
> Now for *Sweelinck*, the next on the OP Wiki list. But when I look on YouTube - help!
> 
> Where to start? Do any of you baroque-lovers have any advice for me? :tiphat:


For just single CDs rather than complete works type things, try Glen Wilson on harpsichord, Gustav Leonhardt on organ and the recording of vocal music from Paul van Nevel.

If you can find the set from NM you may want to consider making the investment.


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## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> Sweelinck is a forgotten giant in the history of baroque, the wellspring from which so much later music flows. I would recommend listening to his organ and keyboard music, but primarily his organ works. Sweelinck was organist at the Oude Kerk in Amsterdam. I linked a recording of his Fantasia Chromatica on page 1, the importance of which in the history of music cannot be overestimated. The inventor of fugue? A huge influence on Bach.


Sorry, I forgot about your post on page 1 - have just listened, and it's lovely. :tiphat:

Okay then - onwards with a little bit of *twangle*!





Hail Koopman. Ave, Sweelinck. Guy can write - guy can play. :tiphat: :tiphat:


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## Mandryka

I listened to Glen Wilson's Sweelinck CD yesterday after making that post. I'd forgotten how original it is, it's as if he goes very far into,the expressive potential of the music. Generally the more I hear of Wilson the more I'm impressed.


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## classical yorkist

Ingélou said:


> Hail Koopman. Ave, Sweelinck. Guy can write - guy can play. :tiphat: :tiphat:


You know, I just don't like the sound of that Koopman recording. There's something very flat about the harpsichord sound. The Wilson sounds better.


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## Mandryka

Maybe see what you think of Peter Ella's recording of that fantasy.


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## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> You know, I just don't like the sound of that Koopman recording. There's something very flat about the harpsichord sound. The Wilson sounds better.
> 
> [/video]


Funny you should say that - soon after I posted the YT link to my Facebook page in order to listen to it, and was quite enjoying it, I noticed this exchange on the comments underneath the video, which I reproduce, bar the names, as I think it's of interest.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*>>* *This recording, considering who made the instrument and who's playing it, is AMAZINGLY bad!﻿*

*>>* *Totally agree﻿*

*>>** Just think of it as an extra helping of "chromatica."﻿*

*>> ** As a fan of Ton Koopman I was all ready to leap to his defense but found that I agreed with you so I set about trying to discover why. I think the answer is that Sweelinck, although writing for the 'keyboard' was thinking organ as he composed. Take those opening notes of Fantasia Chromatica I - on the organ with its ability to sustain and natural reverberation they are fine, on the harpsichord they sound, well, silly.*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I like harpsichord music and I don't really have enough expertise as a listener to agree or disagree. I will probably listen to the rest of it, but then try the alternative recommendations.

Thank you, classicalyorkist and Mandryka - :tiphat: :tiphat:
I'd be interested if you have any more to say about the various musicians performing Sweelinck's music, or other baroque music.


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## Mandryka

Here it is played in Italy, Romagnano, on a 17th century organ tuned meantone 1/4 comma






Irena de Ruvo is an interesting musician, I know her through the recording of Giovanni Battista Dalla Gostena.

The discussion on youtube, which, of course, focuses on the temperament, is worth glancing at because of the way it divides people. I'm more than happy with this level of dissonance, in fact I wouldn't have the piece played any other way.


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## premont

Mandryka said:


> Here it is played in Italy, Romagnano, on a 17th century organ tuned meantone 1/4 comma
> 
> Irena de Ruvo is an interesting musician, I know her through the recording of Giovanni Battista Dalla Gostena.
> 
> The discussion on youtube, which, of course, focuses on the temperament, is worth glancing at because of the way it divides people. I'm more than happy with this level of dissonance, in fact I wouldn't have the piece played any other way.


Sweelinck "scored" for Italian baroque organ. Thanks for the link. Very impressive interpretation. I agree with you about the tuning, which is very important in music of this kind. Equal tuning sounds outright tame or lame in comparison.


----------



## Guest

How about this for volcanic baroque music? God almighty, its composer had a brain the size of Jupiter and talent to match!






Bach was bored, or had some leisure time, so he demonstrated equal temperament tuning based upon the principles of Pythagoras.

Then there's this!!


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## Guest

Today it's ALL Bach, with Brendel. Sitting at the computer preparing next year's program for our community Music Appreciation group (many are retired music professionals), with the Bluetooth going full throttle:


----------



## ArtMusic

This is a wonderful thread. I'll get back to you soon.


----------



## classical yorkist

Ingélou said:


> Thank you, classicalyorkist and Mandryka - :tiphat: :tiphat:
> I'd be interested if you have any more to say about the various musicians performing Sweelinck's music, or other baroque music.


I personally don't think that Koopman is a bad player, on the contrary in fact. I think the problem lies in the recording process in this instance, it's just a badly recorded harpsichord.


----------



## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> You know, I just don't like the sound of that Koopman recording. There's something very flat about the harpsichord sound. The Wilson sounds better.





Ingélou said:


> Funny you should say that - soon after I posted the YT link to my Facebook page in order to listen to it, and was quite enjoying it, I noticed this exchange on the comments underneath the video, which I reproduce, bar the names, as I think it's of interest.
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> *>>* *This recording, considering who made the instrument and who's playing it, is AMAZINGLY bad!﻿*
> 
> *>>* *Totally agree﻿*
> 
> *>>** Just think of it as an extra helping of "chromatica."﻿*
> 
> *>> ** As a fan of Ton Koopman I was all ready to leap to his defense but found that I agreed with you so I set about trying to discover why. I think the answer is that Sweelinck, although writing for the 'keyboard' was thinking organ as he composed. Take those opening notes of Fantasia Chromatica I - on the organ with its ability to sustain and natural reverberation they are fine, on the harpsichord they sound, well, silly.*
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> I like harpsichord music and I don't really have enough expertise as a listener to agree or disagree. I will probably listen to the rest of it, but then try the alternative recommendations.
> 
> Thank you, classicalyorkist and Mandryka - :tiphat: :tiphat:
> I'd be interested if you have any more to say about the various musicians performing Sweelinck's music, or other baroque music.





classical yorkist said:


> I personally don't think that Koopman is a bad player, on the contrary in fact. I think the problem lies in the recording process in this instance, it's just a badly recorded harpsichord.


Well -  - I just finished listening to the Koopman, and, um, I *loved* it, every last jangle, even the single harsh reverberating notes. I admit that I don't have a connoisseur's ears, and also that, as a passionate lover of traditional Scottish music, my liking is for a gritty raspy fiddle sound rather than smooth violins. Maybe, then, I am suffering from *Rustic Ear Syndrome*. 

Also, though I like harpsichord music, I haven't listened to enough of it, on good equipment, to know what is good recording and what is bad.

I have now put the other Sweelinck recordings recommended on to my Facebook page and will listen to them. Maybe that will make me see the error of my ways...!


----------



## Mandryka

premont said:


> Sweelinck "scored" for Italian baroque organ. Thanks for the link. Very impressive interpretation. I agree with you about the tuning, which is very important in music of this kind. Equal tuning sounds outright tame or lame in comparison.


Glen Wilson writes this about it



> An interesting aspect of the piece is the appearance of five D sharps (and only one E flat at a very dissonant moment)-a majority of the nine appearances of this unusual note in all of Sweelinck's keyboard music. At the time, these were not the same key, as on a piano, but two mutually exclusive pitches. Keyboards with split sharps to accommodate the difference were unknown in Holland, but common in Italy. It has been argued that this shows the work to have been intended for harpsichord, which can be retuned at will - but it seems to burst the bounds of the tiny instruments Sweelinck knew.


----------



## Mandryka

classical yorkist said:


> I personally don't think that Koopman is a bad player, on the contrary in fact. I think the problem lies in the recording process in this instance, it's just a badly recorded harpsichord.


I thought Koopman was a bit linear, I mean I thought the transitions between the three sections of the music could have been made a bit clearer. Admittedly this isn't easy to do on a harpsichord -- if you watch the Ruvo video you'll see (and hear) her changing registrations.


----------



## classical yorkist

Mandryka said:


> I thought Koopman was a bit linear, I mean I thought the transitions between the three sections of the music could have been made a bit clearer. Admittedly this isn't easy to do on a harpsichord -- if you watch the Ruvo video you'll see (and hear) her changing registrations.


Well, to be honest, I think Sweelinck is composing primarily for an organ rather than a harpsichord anyway. The performance you have mentioned is superb. There is a cd by Masaaki Suzuki of the Bach Collegium Japan of Sweelinck's organ music I'm meaning to buy.


----------



## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> You know, I just don't like the sound of that Koopman recording. There's something very flat about the harpsichord sound. The Wilson sounds better.





Mandryka said:


> Here it is played in Italy, Romagnano, on a 17th century organ tuned meantone 1/4 comma
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Irena de Ruvo is an interesting musician, I know her through the recording of Giovanni Battista Dalla Gostena.
> 
> The discussion on youtube, which, of course, focuses on the temperament, is worth glancing at because of the way it divides people. I'm more than happy with this level of dissonance, in fact I wouldn't have the piece played any other way.





Mandryka said:


> Maybe see what you think of Peter Ella's recording of that fantasy.


I have now listened to the Wilson video and the organ video by Irena de Ruva. I liked the Wilson video, though it did confirm to me that I actually like a bit of harshness in the harpsichord sound. I liked the organ rendition of Sweelinck's Fantasia, and though again I don't know enough to say anything of any musical or academic value, I enjoyed the 'dissonance'. I am obviously a person who likes *strong decrepit Stilton*, not *luxury cream cheese*.

I'm *not* saying it's 'just a matter of taste', though. I recognise that I've come far too late to Classical Music to develop a really sensitive ear to the nuances. The physical equipment is starting to falter, too - I have had tinnitus in my right ear for a number of years. But I am open-minded and eager to learn.

Comments from music students, scholars, or more-well-versed listeners help give someone like me a mind-map of baroque music, its principal issues, composers and musicians. :tiphat: So thank you again for posting on this thread - topics raised are of *great interest* to me.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am limiting myself to YouTube for my present project of 'working through' the Wiki list of Baroque Composers, and the Peter Ella I found was this one:




The clavichord sounds very nice in a different way - gentle and sweet and 'lute-like'. Lovely.

When I've done a bit more listening to YouTube samples of baroque composers, I will probably buy some cds, because I'll have more of an idea. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm now going to take some time out form *The List* to listen to the Bach links posted by CountenanceAnglaise in posts #51 and #53, above.

(Well, maybe not right at this moment. Fiddle practice calls!)


----------



## Triplets

Taplow said:


> I am constantly amazed by how much more there is to discover in the baroque that is still relatively unknown. Astounded also that therein lies beauty largely untapped by major labels and performers. Thank you for this thread. I've already learned one new name I never heard before (Reincken) and have added some recordings of his works to my wishlist. I look forward to discovering more.
> 
> I have always felt that the determination of the start of the baroque period as around 1600 to be somewhat arbitrary. We seem to love labels, but a label such as this, or 'classical' or 'romantic', also foments the expectation of some sudden and dramatic change in style. This just doesn't happen in the real word. Much early baroque music is, to me, still firmly rooted in the styles of the renaissance. There are strong echoes of the renaissance in the music of Monteverdi, for example. Indeed, there is also much late renaissance music that bears the hallmarks of early baroque-I am thinking primarily of complex counterpoint and rudimentary ornamentation-while still sounding essentially renaissance. The samples of the music of Peter Philips provided by Taggart, above, sound to me not too far removed from that of Holborne or Dowland. Was English music of the time somewhat more conservative and resistant to change than music on the continent? I doubt it.
> 
> Please keep this thread going with new suggestions and discoveries.


When did Composers start to have a sort of self awareness that they were starting a new period in music? Most of these designations are retrospective, particularly in the transition from Renaissance to Baroque. I doubt that someone like Monteverdi 
Woke up one morning and decided he was going to evolve from Renaissance to Baroque.
Otoh, in the Romantic era, one sees Composers such as Berlioz, Liszt and Wagner quite consciously announce they were seeking new paths and (I think) even referring to themselves as Romanticists. Closer to our time Modern Composers can be very self conscious about their style de hour. Stravinsky changed his about as often as he changed his underwear, going to neo classicism, Serialism, and then when he needed more money he would change the triangle part of Petrouchka, recopywright it and become a bitonalist again for a week.
Composers such as C.P.E. Bach or Haydn were striving after originality but weren't labeling themselves rococo or High Classicist.
Did Schubert and Beethoven play with Legos in a Viennese coffee house and decide to build a bridge together from Classicism to Romanticism?
Sorry, Ingelou, didn't mean to hijack your thread. My point, if I have one (?), is that using labels to categorize and pigeon hole Composers is a relatively recent phenomenon. Or is it?


----------



## Ingélou

Triplets said:


> When did Composers start to have a sort of self awareness that they were starting a new period in music? Most of these designations are retrospective, particularly in the transition from Renaissance to Baroque. I doubt that someone like Monteverdi
> Woke up one morning and decided he was going to evolve from Renaissance to Baroque.
> Otoh, in the Romantic era, one sees Composers such as Berlioz, Liszt and Wagner quite consciously announce they were seeking new paths and (I think) even referring to themselves as Romanticists. Closer to our time Modern Composers can be very self conscious about their style de hour. Stravinsky changed his about as often as he changed his underwear, going to neo classicism, Serialism, and then when he needed more money he would change the triangle part of Petrouchka, recopywright it and become a bitonalist again for a week.
> Composers such as C.P.E. Bach or Haydn were striving after originality but weren't labeling themselves rococo or High Classicist.
> Did Schubert and Beethoven play with Legos in a Viennese coffee house and decide to build a bridge together from Classicism to Romanticism?
> Sorry, Ingelou, didn't mean to hijack your thread. *My point, if I have one (?), is that using labels to categorize and pigeon hole Composers is a relatively recent phenomenon. Or is it?*


I have no idea. 
I am just using the 'baroque' label because it's convenient, although of course at the boundary lines there is a lot of music that would fit into 'renaissance' or 'classical' or whatever.

However, I don't think one can rule out the idea that Monteverdi or any other baroque composer wasn't aware that he was doing something new. The rush by Giulio Cacchini to publish what we now think of as 'the first opera' - followed by Peri getting his version out and claiming it as anterior - seems to show that they wanted to be ahead of the game. People who claim to be doing something new are just 'setting a fashion' and fashion is probably as old as the caveman who wore his fur wrap in a new way.

When you look at artists like Bach, Beethoven, Shakespeare, Wordsworth - they were conscious of their talents and capabilities.

Don't feel you are 'hijacking' the thread, Triplets - I started it to keep baroque music as a centre of interest on Talk Classical and am very pleased to have opinions and epiphanies on here, as well as my inane witterings about what I'm listening to from The List.


----------



## Taggart

Look at the Florentine Camerata in the 1580s, they were a groups of poets artists and musicians who were fed up with the overuse of polyphony at the expense of intelligibility. They were harking back to the Greek roots of drama and their discussions led to the development of the _stile recitativo_ and Opera as we know it.

OK not exactly waking up and saying we are now Baroque, but a clear movement away from one style of music (and drama) to another.


----------



## classical yorkist

Ingélou said:


> I'm now going to take some time out form *The List* to listen to the Bach links posted by CountenanceAnglaise in posts #51 and #53, above.
> 
> (Well, maybe not right at this moment. Fiddle practice calls!)


I'm gonna sound like a real grump here but those Bach links are played on piano and I'm one of those listeners that doesn't like Bach on piano. I think Bach's keyboard works are better experienced on organ or harpsichord than piano.


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## Mandryka

Ingélou said:


> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> I am limiting myself to YouTube


Koopman is very well recorded and his harpsichord sounds sweet and subtle, I think the engineers have done a better job for him than they did for Wilson. This is lost in the YouTube transfer.


----------



## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> I'm gonna sound like a real grump here but those Bach links are played on piano and I'm one of those listeners that doesn't like Bach on piano. I think Bach's keyboard works are better experienced on organ or harpsichord than piano.


Then after my fiddle practice I shall first listen to the piano pieces, and then look for versions of the same pieces on organ or harpsichord. I am here to listen and learn, and to delight in listening and learning. Thanks for all your contributions to this thread, classical yorkist. :tiphat:



Mandryka said:


> Koopman is very well recorded and his harpsichord sounds sweet and subtle, I think the engineers have done a better job for him than they did for Wilson. This is lost in the YouTube transfer.


Yes, I'm sure it's just my bad ear that can't hear what's wrong with the Koopman recording. I love the actual music, though, and some time in the future I will try and buy a cd of Sweelinck, but will take a lot of thought about it. Thank you for all your contributions to this thread, Mandryka. :tiphat:

PS - And carry on posting, y'all!


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## tdc

J.S. Bach BWV 682

I have been listening to this often lately, I find it so unique. Another excellent version of this piece is the one performed by Hans Fagius on the Complete Edition/Brilliant Classics. Anyone else know this work or have any favorite performances?


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## classical yorkist

I'm always posting this link,so apologies to all who've seen it before, but if you love harpsichord, and I do, then:

http://www.saladelcembalo.org/index.htm

and head to the _All The Music_ section and feast on the wonders.


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## Guest

classical yorkist said:


> I'm gonna sound like a real grump here but those Bach links are played on piano and I'm one of those listeners that doesn't like Bach on piano. I think Bach's keyboard works are better experienced on organ or harpsichord than piano.


I absolutely get that!! Lots of people do prefer it on harpsichord, and that's great to hear as well. I just think there is a case for the piano and Brendel is one of the M-E-N. Not a perfect pianist - plenty of slips - but I love his playing and he's such an adorable man with a glint in his eye and great sense of humour.


----------



## Guest

classical yorkist said:


> I'm always posting this link,so apologies to all who've seen it before, but if you love harpsichord, and I do, then:
> 
> http://www.saladelcembalo.org/index.htm
> 
> and head to the _All The Music_ section and feast on the wonders.


This is absolutely terrific, thank you. I'm emailing it to my musical friends now!!


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## ArtMusic

ArtMusic highly recommends this 2 CD set if you love the sound of the Baroque oboe. This instrument has so much vocal qualities that even the Classical oboe lacks. Performed by Paul Dombrecht on an oboe based on a 1720 instrument.


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## Guest

Listen to the keyboard music of this planetary-sized musical brain!! Bach on the piano; Brendel in the driver's seat. "The Italian Concerto". JS Bach was really the musical '*killer App*" (a term coined by Professor Niall Ferguson - yet another huge intellect I really admire!):


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## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> I'm gonna sound like a real grump here but those Bach links are played on piano and I'm one of those listeners that doesn't like Bach on piano. I think Bach's keyboard works are better experienced on organ or harpsichord than piano.





CountenanceAnglaise said:


> I absolutely get that!! Lots of people do prefer it on harpsichord, and that's great to hear as well. I just think there is a case for the piano and Brendel is one of the M-E-N. Not a perfect pianist - plenty of slips - but I love his playing and he's such an adorable man with a glint in his eye and great sense of humour.


Aha - this is a thread for self-discovery. 

I find that I'm with classical yorkist on this one: someone who prefers baroque music played on the organ or harpsichord rather than on the piano. 
I wasn't sure. Taggart used to play a lot of Glenn Gould in the car when he was preparing for his grade 6 and grade 7 piano exams, and I enjoyed it, in a *scenery-skimming-by* sort of way.

But when it comes to sitting and listening more carefully in my study-bedroom - I find the unemphatic gentleness of the sound just a trifle underwhelming. Not that that proves anything - a case of pearls before swine, no doubt. 

Taggart, of course, as a pianist thinks differently. I must call up the corridor and ask him what he thinks of Brendel.

But anyway, I still enjoyed listening to the pieces you posted, CountenanceAnglaise. 
Thank you. :tiphat:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
_And now - back to The List & Sweelinck.
Wishing everyone on TC a good weekend. _ :cheers:


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## Guest

My pleasure, ma'am. Totally agree that harpsichord and organ for baroque is marvellous. What about this: Rameau played by Scott Ross. Just a taste of one of the pieces. Tumultuous, knotty and incredible. Another EXTRAORDINARY komponist!!


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## Ingélou

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> My pleasure, ma'am. Totally agree that harpsichord and organ for baroque is marvellous. What about this: Rameau played by Scott Ross. Just a taste of one of the pieces. Tumultuous, knotty and incredible. Another EXTRAORDINARY komponist!!


Lovely! 
~~~~~~~~~

PS - Part of the music reminded me of something else - Boccherini's Fandango. ???


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## Guest

This is HIGHLY RECOMMENDED but spoiler alert; it is Bach on piano. I have the recording being made here with David Fray. (We have a large house with husband and wife at either end too - husband a political tragic and reader of such!!) The barbeque is burning; I have to go!!!


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## Taggart

I tried the Brendel and then went back to Gould. Interesting comparison,the difference to me is in the piano sound. Gould preferred a lighter, slightly brighter sound. He started on an etiolated Steinway and produced some recordings almost halfway between a piano and a harpsichord. It is no surprise that he ended up playing a Yamaha. I find Brendel's sound a little too rich, sonorous and pianistic. I'm not entirely convinced by his more modern dynamics either.

I enjoy playing Bach (and any Baroque) on the piano. I love the harpsichord sound and would like to have both the room (and the money) to afford a nice 2 manual one - even a modern reproduction would do. We even have a local maker who supplies a local Baroque ensemble so I would also have ready access to a good tuner.


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## Guest

You're obviously a discerning listener; lovely to see!! And now before the mosquitoes eat us before we eat barbeque my last offering tonight (which I've posted before):






Berliner Philharmoniker Digital Concert Hall tonight; Ton Koopman conducting Bach B Minor Mass!!


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## Guest

Stunning playing; wonderful composer (Rameau).


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## Ingélou

Another version - expressive singers, and I just love the way the camera homes in on the baroque bows.


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## Ingélou

We listened to this in the car last night - wow! I loved every last ripple and jangle. 
There was such a lot of interest, and so much variation. 
Bach & Trevor Pinnock = a match made in :angel::angel: = Guy can write, Guy can play!


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## SiegendesLicht

Ingélou said:


> Another version - expressive singers, and I just love the way the camera homes in on the baroque bows.


Wow, this is fantastic! So much passion and expressivity. Thank you!


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## Guest

Ingélou said:


> We listened to this in the car last night - wow! I loved every last ripple and jangle.
> There was such a lot of interest, and so much variation.
> Bach & Trevor Pinnock = a match made in :angel::angel: = Guy can write, Guy can play!


I'm preparing a 2 hour lecture for next year for our community Music Appreciation group (which has retired musicians and pedagogues). It is part 2 of a series: "*Baroque Music for the Theatre*". This year it was "Purcell - England" and next year it is "Rameau - France". Purcell is very accessible but the music of the French baroque is a horse of a different colour. Theatre music of Lully and Rameau isn't always easy to listen to and his operas are very different from their English and Italian counterparts. Everything from ornamentation, structure and musical ambitus is very different. I think Rameau is more of an acquired taste when you think of the large works like the operas. I saw "Castor and Pollux" at Theater an der Wien in 2011 with Les Talens Lyriques/Rousset and it was extraordinary. You may not know this One Act opera/ballet, "Pygmalion", by Rameau but I adore it. In the wonderful Overture here played by Les Talens you can hear the chipping of the sculptor's chisel from about 1:40. Sublime!






This below is the performance I have myself on CD and the Overture emphasizes the sculptor's chisel much more than the Rousset, but the latter is a more 'refined' performance (if I can put it that way). Wait after the Overture to hear "Fatal amour" where the sculptor laments the fact that the statue is making him (her creator) miserable because of her beauty!! Men. Sheesh!!






Go to *45:45* to hear THE most elegant French dance.


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## Ingélou

^^^ The first of your links is no longer available!

Just listened to the dance - very nice, quite jaunty, though I have to confess to preferring Lully, maybe because he's not so elegant! 

Hope your lecture goes well.

We are going to an English Touring Opera version of Rameau's Dardanus at Snape on Friday. It is modern dress, which isn't our taste, but the music and singing got a good write-up, plus my fiddle teacher is playing viola in the Old Street Band, so we're looking forward to it. 
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2...are-and-dardanus-review-english-touring-opera


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## Marinera

Decided to listen to the whole concert. I'm already halfway through and enjoying it immensely. Thanks Ingelou!


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## Ingélou

Marinera said:


> Decided to listen to the whole concert. I'm already halfway through and enjoying it immensely. Thanks Ingelou!


 I didn't know about this, so thank *you*, Marinera! :tiphat:
I hope to listen to it later on today.

Meditating on my fiddle teacher who plays HIP viola in The Old Street Band and La Serenissima, I realised that I know very little about baroque music written *for* the instrument.

There's this one -






- and I would love to know about others. 
Despite the jokes, is there anyone on the planet who doesn't love the sound of the viola?


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## classical yorkist

My listening this morning and so beautiful and expressive.


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## Mandryka

Here's a piece by Marais called Tombeau for Mr Meliton. Which famous piece of music by J S Bach does the tune at the start remind you of?


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## RICK RIEKERT

In his book "The Musical Dialogue" Harnoncourt says that the main theme for the opening chorus of the St. Matthew Passion is a direct quote from Marais' Tombeau. I think anyone with a working pair of ears would have to agree.


----------



## Mandryka

RICK RIEKERT said:


> In his book "The Musical Dialogue" Harnoncourt says that the main theme for the opening chorus of the St. Matthew Passion is a direct quote from Marais' Tombeau. I think anyone with a working pair of ears would have to agree.


Have you seen the new Cavazzoni CD, Rick, from Glen Wilson?


----------



## RICK RIEKERT

I have, Mandryka. It's a lovely sounding disc and as usual Glen Wilson adorns everything he touches. Catalina Vicens is also a talented harpsichordist who specializes in this music. She released a superb recording earlier this year called "Il Cembalo di Partenope". You can hear her on YouTube. Cavazzoni is another "Divino" who excelled at the ricercar, Francesco da Milano being the other. Knowing your previous, mostly unfelicitous, approaches to the music of Adrian Willaert, I'm curious to know your thoughts on his Ricercar XIV which Wilson calls "a masterpiece beyond all praise".


----------



## Joe B

Ingélou said:


> We listened to this in the car last night - wow! I loved every last ripple and jangle.
> There was such a lot of interest, and so much variation.
> Bach & Trevor Pinnock = a match made in :angel::angel: = Guy can write, Guy can play!


This IS a fabulous CD. And you're right about Pinnock and Bach. I'm sure J.S. was all smiles when this was recorded.


----------



## Mandryka

RICK RIEKERT said:


> I have, Mandryka. It's a lovely sounding disc and as usual Glen Wilson adorns everything he touches. Catalina Vicens is also a talented harpsichordist who specializes in this music. She released a superb recording earlier this year called "Il Cembalo di Partenope". You can hear her on YouTube. Cavazzoni is another "Divino" who excelled at the ricercar, Francesco da Milano being the other. Knowing your previous, mostly unfelicitous, approaches to the music of Adrian Willaert, I'm curious to know your thoughts on his Ricercar XIV which Wilson calls "a masterpiece beyond all praise".


Willaert's Ricercar xiv: I think he does a really stalwart job making the counterpoint interesting on a harpsichord. I just wish that Wilson was more colourful, and varied his attack a bit more, and his portato, rather than relying so much on rubato and the changes of rhythms in the music. Sometimes in this Willaert ricercar, the way he plays the chords which punctuate the phrases and mark the pulse annoys me, it's as if he almost systematically stresses the chords, hammers them home (I exaggerate here for want of not being able to find the right words) He's good in the "joyous melodies" at the end.

I enjoyed the Cavazzoni on Wilson's CD more than the Willaert. I guess I'm a Willaertphobe. I nearly bought Rifkin's recording on your recommendation years ago, but the LP got lost somewhere between the US and the UK.

There's a performance of the ricercar where the music is shared out between harpsichord and organ on Stradivarius, in their complete Willaert. I don't know if it compromises the integrity of the music too much.

I've been listening to Stembridge's Frescobaldi - and his way of playing there has made me critical of Wilson's here - the way Stembridge varies his touch, the liaison between the notes, is really impressive. I want more soul!


----------



## RICK RIEKERT

Mandryka said:


> Sometimes in this Willaert ricercar, the way he plays the chords which punctuate the phrases and mark the pulse annoys me, it's as if he almost systematically stresses the chords, hammers them home


Yes, I can understand how that might not be to your taste. For a lighter, perhaps more graceful, rendition without so much as a hint of hammering, give Roberto Loreggian on spinetta a listen. I shan't vouch for his soulfullness, however.


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## tdc

RICK RIEKERT said:


> In his book "The Musical Dialogue" Harnoncourt says that the main theme for the opening chorus of the St. Matthew Passion is a direct quote from Marais' Tombeau. I think anyone with a working pair of ears would have to agree.


After reading this and listening to the two pieces I can certainly hear the similarity, but I would not have guessed without you pointing this out. The drone effect Bach adds to the opening chorus of the St. Matthew Passion completely changes the character of the melody in my opinion and creates a heightened sense of tension and urgency. In contrast the Marais sounds laid-back, mournful and reflective.


----------



## Guest

I've never really investigated the Ricercar sufficiently to get a handle on it. One of our very senior members of our music group is always talking about Ricercar and, having also read the comments here and heard examples, I feel compelled to get to work on it!


----------



## premont

RICK RIEKERT said:


> Yes, I can understand how that might not be to your taste. For a lighter, perhaps more graceful, rendition without so much as a hint of hammering, give Roberto Loreggian on spinetta a listen. I shan't vouch for his soulfullness, however.


Nice performancce, but the music is static and gets nowhere.


----------



## Joe B

Ingélou said:


> We listened to this in the car last night - wow! I loved every last ripple and jangle.
> There was such a lot of interest, and so much variation.
> Bach & Trevor Pinnock = a match made in :angel::angel: = Guy can write, Guy can play!


Took my wife to a doctor's appointment an hour away this morning, and taking your lead we listened to this on the way there. Excellent.


----------



## Ingélou

Joe B said:


> Took my wife to a doctor's appointment an hour away this morning, and taking your lead we listened to this on the way there. Excellent.


Hope the appointment went well. :tiphat:


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## Joe B

Ingélou said:


> Hope the appointment went well. :tiphat:


She's almost home free. Started 12/16/16 (10 days in the hospital), then in the hospital from 2/6/17 until 5/27/17 with four surgeries. This Thursday may be the last follow up appointment with the second surgeon. We both need this to be done and finished. Life has been rather strange this last year.


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## Ingélou

Hope this is indeed the end of all your wife's health problems, and you can both relax and enjoy life without worry. :tiphat:


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## Mowgli

Thanks for starting this thread Ingélou.

I only recently started adventuring pre-1856.
I'm glad that it's not 5 million versions of The Four Seasons (I like t4S but one is enough).

Pianos are great for piano music.
I have no need to hear this done on piano.


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## classical yorkist

My random, mad voyage through baroque music continues apace. I sometimes think I should be more methodical in my listening as I find myself lurching from 1600 to 1720, from partita to opera to cantata & from Monteverdi to Bach and back. I'll never gain some kind of overview, all I know is I love it. 
Anyway, my latest find is this website: http://allofbach.com/en/


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## Ingélou

I listened to this choral music by Sweelinck yesterday:





It was really beautiful. A heavenly sound. There are some more parts to it on YouTube, which I will get on to by and by.

At present I'm flitting about trying out some of his organ music. I started with this one:





But I gave up after a few minutes because there seemed to be a lot of *clacking* going on in the background. Is it meant to be there, as part of the charm of an old organ cranking away - or is somebody accompanying the music on the bones or spoons, à la Irish pub session? :lol:
Oh gosh, I'm *so* ignorant! Anyway, it got on my nerves, so now I'm listening to this, which I like very much.






Classical Yorkist, you said in an earlier post that *Sweelinck is a forgotten giant in the history of baroque, the wellspring from which so much later music flows. *

I certainly do think that he produced wonderful music. Why was he forgotten? Was it just because Bach's music obliterated his memory, or is it that people view him as 'solid' rather than inspiring? 
This seems to be a view expressed in the TC composer guestbook:

Jan Pieterszoon Sweelinck

Here the opening post by Clavichorder talks of Sweelinck's '*noodly squareness*' which I must say is a brilliantly expressive phrase, and I can sort-of see what he means. :cheers:

All the same, I have loved what I've listened to. Maybe it is simply that Sweelinck was so prolific that he seems to 'go on for miles' - or is it that he's listened to by people who already know Bach or who have heard of Sweelinck's reputation as a Baroque giant and are, like Clavichorder, disappointed because their expectations were so high?

Please, if you have time, do tell me what you think, everybody. Thank you. :tiphat:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

PS - When I look at The Composer Guestbook, I see that I posted some appreciative posts - but oh dear, I've forgotten all that I listened to then. I've come to Classical Music too late, as when I was young I had a wonderful memory.

Alas, no more!!!!


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## classical yorkist

Ingélou said:


> Classical Yorkist, you said in an earlier post that *Sweelinck is a forgotten giant in the history of baroque, the wellspring from which so much later music flows. *
> 
> I certainly do think that he produced wonderful music. Why was he forgotten? Was it just because Bach's music obliterated his memory, or is it that people view him as 'solid' rather than inspiring?
> 
> Please, if you have time, do tell me what you think, everybody. Thank you. :tiphat:


What I meant is that apart from the fact that Sweelinck was responsible for some groundbreaking music he was also a teacher and the people he taught, amongst them Scheidt and Scheidermann, were directly responsible for the so called North German Organ School of which JS Bach was a major figure. I don't know if Bach was ever exposed to, or had in his collection, any music by Sweelinck but I personally think he deserves to be better known. There aren't that many cd's out there of Sweelinck and that seems a pity.


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## Guest

classical yorkist said:


> What I meant is that apart from the fact that Sweelinck was responsible for some groundbreaking music he was also a teacher and the people he taught, amongst them Scheidt and Scheidermann, were directly responsible for the so called North German Organ School of which JS Bach was a major figure. I don't know if Bach was ever exposed to, or had in his collection, any music by Sweelinck but I personally think he deserves to be better known. There aren't that many cd's out there of Sweelinck and that seems a pity.


Sweelinck has his name up on the side of the walls, alongside all the great composers, at the Concertgebouw in Amsterdam. Yes, that's pretty impressive.


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## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> What I meant is that apart from the fact that Sweelinck was responsible for some groundbreaking music he was also a teacher and the people he taught, amongst them Scheidt and Scheidermann, were directly responsible for the so called North German Organ School of which JS Bach was a major figure. I don't know if Bach was ever exposed to, or had in his collection, any music by Sweelinck but I personally think he deserves to be better known. *There aren't that many cd's out there of Sweelinck and that seems a pity.*


Yes, it is. There is so much baroque music that is really good but that doesn't get played or recorded as much as it deserves. I don't know enough about classical music to say whether that applies to other eras too.

Certainly in English Literature, as you recede from the age, only one or two of the Giants seem to go on being read. There were lots of Victorian novelists, for example, who were very highly rated in their day, but I haven't actually read - writers like Meredith and Mrs Humphrey Ward. I suppose one can only do so much, so I choose not to make up for my deficiencies. And in music, though I will continue to follow up links to modern or romantic music where it interests me, I am going to 'major' in Early Music, Renaissance and Baroque.

So many tunes - so little time! 

I have seen other giants of the Baroque Era dismissed as stolid or boring too, according to other posts on TC. e.g. Telemann. From the little I've listened to by him, that's completely unjust. He's number 31 on the List, and with so many other fabulous composers en route, not to mention exploring a few byways, I *can* wait to get on to him. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Baroque_composers

I'll continue hunting up Sweelinck's organ music, and then take a break before tackling the Monteverdi Peaks, desporting myself first in the delightful foothills - all the links posted in this thread so far.

Thank you, everyone, for contributing - not only the links, but all the insightful comments. :tiphat:


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## Guest

It's *500 years today* since Bach nailed his 95 Theses to the door of the church in Wittenberg. And we got THIS!!






The Germans want to make it a permanent public holiday.


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## premont

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> It's *500 years today* since *Bach* nailed his 95 Theses to the door of the church in Wittenberg. .


Are you sure??????


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## Mowgli

premont said:


> Are you sure??????


:guitar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformation_Day

Khatia was there too.


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## Johnmusic

Scarlatti - 5 piano sonatas - Michelangeli Helsinki 1969


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## Taggart

Rameau's Dardanus at Snape English Touring Opera (ETO) and the Old Street Band - 3 November 2017

Dardanus is generally acclaimed as some of Rameau's best music. Musically, it represents a distinct change from the operas of Lully. However, the opera has a chequered history. The original 1739 production had Venus in her flying chariot in the best Lully tradition and other supernatural effects. It was not well received. Rameau and his librettist, Leclerc de La Bruère, reworked the opera for a 1744 revival which removed most of the _deus ex machina_ effects and gave a more rounded form to the second half. The trouble is that there is so much good music split between the versions that modern directors have often conflated versions to get the best effects.

The basic story with the love triangle set amid the horrors of war carries us through and the singing and music brought out the struggles of the lovers and the evils of war.

ETO decided on a modern dress performance - this generally worked, although the sight of Anténor in full battle dress weeping for Iphise was a little less than realistic. The main problem was the staging. The action took place in a gravel pit - a shallow box covering the stage and filled with fine sand and pebbles. This meant that crossing the stage for the female characters in heels had to be done somewhat gingerly. Although the opera should have had a number of dance interludes these had to be cut otherwise it could have looked like a Wilson and Keppel sand dance. Some dance movements were cut entirely others were used as scene change entractes and what remained (including the long concluding divertissements) used as back drop for hi-jinks and ceremony from the chorus. This jarred with the solemnity of the closing scene with the appearance of Venus excellently sung by Eleanor Penfold whose simple brilliant white dress formed a fine contrast to the drabness of the other costumes. Interestingly, the concluding divertissements are from the 1739 version and used because of their beauty - shame to waste it then! Another element from the 1739 production was the aria _Monstre affreux, monstre redoutable_ which seemed out of place (and confusing - Ingélou wondered who the monster was - death?) although movingly sung by Timothy Nelson as Anténor.

Galina Averina was excellent as Iphise and Anthony Gregory made a fine Dardanus coping well with Rameaus's haut-contre style especially in the fourth act aria _Lieux funestes_. Grant Doyle played Iphise's father Teucer, but like many bass singers failed to bring out the melody almost seeming to have a grumbly recitiative style rather than projecting the notes. Frederick Long as Ismenor, in full Catweazle style, made the most of a part which is not fully dramatically integrated. The accompanied recitative _Suspends ta brillante carrière_ was well done with fine lighting effects. Alessandro Fisher made a fine Arcas encouraging Anténor to kill Dardanus. The chorus - Eleanor Penfold, Katy Thomson, Edward Jowle, Mikel Uskola Cobos - worked well and Eleanor Penfold was excellent as Venus.

The music was provided by the Old Street Band. I felt that the music was played beautifully, with an exquisite balance and poise. Rameau's music has a lyrical elegance and they brought out the underlying harmonies well. A shame that their music was not left to speak for itself without distraction or that the producers had not gone for dance over silly staging effects.

All in all, an excellent evening's entertainment.

A link to our previous visit to ETO

http://www.talkclassical.com/27737-choice-baroque-operas-2.html#post545515


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## Ingélou

It was a fab evening. Here's my own twopenn'orth:










We had good seats just over a third of the way back. I was a bit worried, because I'm not a person who likes modern dress performances, but the point about Dardanus is the poignancy and irony of the situation, with the daughter of one warring ruler secretly in love with her father's enemy, while being betrothed to her father's ally. So it didn't matter - the plot was a series of 'changes in the situation', rather than a story, and the background of bare wooden boards and people dressed in black or in military uniforms was very appropriate to the situation. As well as meditations on love, the songs dealt with the cruelty of war and all the emotions of hate and revenge stirred up by it.

At the end the appearance of Venus in a white robe with shining mask was dazzling and moving - rather a pity that they threw the effect away with some comic horseplay while the orchestra, The Old Street Band, was playing the postlude. A quiet stage with some lights playing around would have been better, in my opinion.

As Jim my Fiddle Guru was playing viola in The Old Street Band I listened very carefully to the music, and especially to the cello and violas, trying to distinguish them. So I can say, hand on heart, that the music was played with a delightful balance and lyricism.

Rameau's music has a beyond-time chic to it, though it isn't cram full of melodies like my true French Baroque favourite, Lully. Every song seems to have the same typical French-Baroque languishing phrase - but who cares. Sometimes I find Rameau's music to be *merely* 'elegant', but here the lyrics added poignancy and tenderness - especially as sung by these voices. I thought the acting and characterisation was excellent and loved all the voices, except for Teucer's bass, which sometimes seemed a bit talky-growly, rather than tuneful. (But that might be me - I have some age-associated problems with hearing the lower register.)

The second half, once Dardanus is in prison, dragged a little for me, though the twist of the plot is interesting. (One feels more could be made of it.) And it does seem a pity that Rameau couldn't bear to cut his end music, as I think it would always be a bit anticlimactic even without the daft staging ideas.

But still, it was a lovely and very enjoyable evening. We even discovered a new sort of lemonade at the bar - Rose Lemonade, which tastes like iced melted-down Turkish delight and is delicious.


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## classical yorkist

I listened to the opening cycle of Biber's Mystery Sonatas yesterday and, to be honest, I'm still trying to pick my jaw up off the floor. They really are something else, aren't they! Such amazing, confounding and difficult music. I know the epithet genius is bandied around a lot in classical circles but I truly believe that Biber's music deserves to called genius and inspired.


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## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> I listened to the opening cycle of Biber's Mystery Sonatas yesterday and, to be honest, I'm still trying to pick my jaw up off the floor. They really are something else, aren't they! Such amazing, confounding and difficult music. I know the epithet genius is bandied around a lot in classical circles but I truly believe that Biber's music deserves to called genius and inspired.


:tiphat::tiphat::tiphat:

I so agree. 
The Mystery Sonatas are probably my absolutely favourite piece of music. What I like also is the way the music quite often fits the particular decade of the rosary - e.g. The Crowning with Thorns sounds jagged. As a violinist (actually a fiddler) myself, too, I appreciate some of the technical aspects, such as use of scordatura and cross-stringing. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosary_Sonatas

We have two cds - Andrew Manze's and Riccardo Minasi & Bizzarrie Armoniche - and we listen to them both, though I slightly prefer the latter as it always seems a bit more heartfelt, somehow. There was a German version on YouTube a few years ago which was how I got to know the work, but it was a bit out of our price range. However, if I ever win the Lottery, I will get every version out there.


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## Ingélou

I like Rameau, but I love Lully, and I was pondering why. For me, this is the answer - though I appreciate that I'm grossly oversimplifying and anyway there are loads of exceptions!

*Lully has spirit & Rameau has style;
The one has panache and the other has chic;
Lully's a sprinter and Rameau's a miler;
The former's a showman - the latter's oblique. *

Thus I show that I have the heart of a peasant.


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## Joe B

classical yorkist said:


> I listened to the opening cycle of Biber's Mystery Sonatas yesterday and, to be honest, I'm still trying to pick my jaw up off the floor. They really are something else, aren't they! Such amazing, confounding and difficult music. I know the epithet genius is bandied around a lot in classical circles but I truly believe that Biber's music deserves to called genius and inspired.





Ingélou said:


> :tiphat::tiphat::tiphat:
> 
> I so agree.
> The Mystery Sonatas are probably my absolutely favourite piece of music. What I like also is the way the music quite often fits the particular decade of the rosary - e.g. The Crowning with Thorns sounds jagged. As a violinist (actually a fiddler) myself, too, I appreciate some of the technical aspects, such as use of scordatura and cross-stringing.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosary_Sonatas
> 
> We have two cds - Andrew Manze's and Riccardo Minasi & Bizzarrie Armoniche - and we listen to them both, though I slightly prefer the latter as it always seems a bit more heartfelt, somehow. There was a German version on YouTube a few years ago which was how I got to know the work, but it was a bit out of our price range. However, if I ever win the Lottery, I will get every version out there.


I read these posts this morning. Thanks for the inspiration/direction! I haven't listened to my "Mystery Sonatas" in a while:

View attachment 98960
(click to view...had to scan inserts as unavailable online anywhere I looked)


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## Mowgli

TYA -> Bruckner #2 -> Rameau

The Dardanus Suite's flute tweeting, fiddle sawing & drum bashing is surprisingly rowdy and charming 
Hippolyte et Arieie is just as rowdy. My first Rameau listen is a win.


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## Ingélou

I'm feeling a bit daunted, but it's time for me to start my sampling of Monteverdi, as he's the next on the Wiki list in the OP.

He is so big and so influential - and yet I know *nothing* of his work!!!! 

I thought I'd start with the Composer Guestbook on Talk Classical.
Monteverdi, Claudio (1567-1643)

Unfortunately an attachment in the OP which seems to be a list of where to start has winked out over the years - the Composer Guestbook dates from 2010.

However, PetrB of famous memory posts (#3) to recommend a film 'The Full Monteverdi' so Taggart is looking into the possibility of getting it. The film is based on six modern couples breaking up in a restaurant, Monteverdi's madrigals illustrating their relationships and difficulties, so it may turn out to be a bit 'modern' for us (we're a sad trad pair  ) but it has had good critical reception and might be a place to start.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Full_Monteverdi

I shall be reading this article carefully over the next day or two - you wouldn't believe how ignorant I am.
I think in all truth the name *Monteverdi* has scared me off! 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claudio_Monteverdi

I'd be very grateful if any of you can suggest either a starting place or a strategy for *Tackling Monteverdi*. 
Thank you in advance. :tiphat:


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## tdc

Here is a Monteverdi piece that is a favorite of mine, if you enjoy this you may want to explore some of his madrigals, Book VIII is a great place to start.






For large scale works I would suggest starting with the opera _L'Orfeo_. This version with Savall conducting is the one I have and I find it excellent:

L'Orfeo


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## Ingélou

Thank you so much, tdc - this is lovely. :tiphat:

So lovely that I'm going to nick it for my Psalms to Music thread in the Religious Music forum, with due acknowledgement to you. 

PS - And thank you for the link to Orfeo. We will certainly be watching this together. :tiphat:


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## classical yorkist

I'm currently trying to listen to at least one baroque work new to me everyday. Today I've dipped into the massive corpus of one of my very favourite composers; Telemann. I'm not one who feels that just because he produced a huge body of work his talent was less in some way. I think equating fecundity with lack of quality is slightly wrong headed thinking. Telemann never fails to delight my ears and Bach certainly thought very highly of him (he was godfather to CPE Bach).


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## classical yorkist

I've been thinking alot about HiP and period instruments this week, divisive I know, and my developing attitude towards the issue. When I first started listening to baroque music a mere few months ago my choices were very much of the 'don't care' attitude. I listened to alot of what would be called 'romantic' interpretations of baroque played on modern instruments and I thought 'well, I don't really care' but then I was increasingly exposed to period instruments and I find my attitude changing. I've increasingly found that I prefer period instrumentation and this is my attempt to explain why. Disclaimer: what follows is my rather hamfisted attempt at articulating my feelings re. Period instruments.

To my ears period instruments have a wonderful timbre, a rounded, woody tone that totally delights my ear. They seem to have round edges rather than sharp. I really love, what I am going to call, the attack of the instrument. It never seems harsh to me, rather it's pleasingly mellow and the interplay between period instruments seems to flow. They have an organic sound like they have been grown rather than forged. I suppose it's mostly the absence of brassy, metallic tones I'm reacting to. 

I thought, when I first started listening to baroque, that I would never be able to to tell the difference between modern and period but it turns out that I usually can and my ears and brain tell me that I prefer period instrumentation.


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## Mandryka

classical yorkist said:


> I've been thinking alot about HiP and period instruments this week, divisive I know, and my developing attitude towards the issue. When I first started listening to baroque music a mere few months ago my choices were very much of the 'don't care' attitude. I listened to alot of what would be called 'romantic' interpretations of baroque played on modern instruments and I thought 'well, I don't really care' but then I was increasingly exposed to period instruments and I find my attitude changing. I've increasingly found that I prefer period instrumentation and this is my attempt to explain why. Disclaimer: what follows is my rather hamfisted attempt at articulating my feelings re. Period instruments.
> 
> To my ears period instruments have a wonderful timbre, a rounded, woody tone that totally delights my ear. They seem to have round edges rather than sharp. I really love, what I am going to call, the attack of the instrument. It never seems harsh to me, rather it's pleasingly mellow and the interplay between period instruments seems to flow. They have an organic sound like they have been grown rather than forged. I suppose it's mostly the absence of brassy, metallic tones I'm reacting to.
> 
> I thought, when I first started listening to baroque, that I would never be able to to tell the difference between modern and period but it turns out that I usually can and my ears and brain tell me that I prefer period instrumentation.


A performance is the creative response of the performer to the composition and the instrument. The instrument's properties are factors which inspire phrasing, portato, rhythmic expression, tempo, voicing etc. This is I think why period instrument performances are revealing.


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## Mandryka

Re the above I've been listening to Stef Tuinstra's Georg Bohm, and I've been impressed by his performances in Hamburg, which was in fact Bohm's church. It's as if the big old organ there led him to a natural sounding reading of the music.

I think when you're exploring music, it's often rewarding to see what it sounds like on the instruments it was written for. Often it's the most satisfying solution. Bohm is a case in point.


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## classical yorkist

Mandryka said:


> Re the above I've been listening to Stef Tuinstra's Georg Bohm, and I've been impressed by his performances in Hamburg, which was in fact Bohm's church. It's as if the big old organ there led him to a natural sounding reading of the music.
> 
> I think when you're exploring music, it's often rewarding to see what it sounds like on the instruments it was written for. Often it's the most satisfying solution. Bohm is a case in point.


I will track that down, it sounds very interesting. I understand what you are saying, I enjoy these recordings of Bach on his favourite Silberman built organs for the same reason. http://www.baroquemusic.org/708Web.html (there are 5 more volumes scattered here http://www.baroquemusic.org/bmlcatalogue.html)


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## premont

Mandryka said:


> Re the above I've been listening to Stef Tuinstra's Georg Bohm, and I've been impressed by his performances in Hamburg, which was in fact Bohm's church. It's as if the big old organ there led him to a natural sounding reading of the music.


As far as I recall without consulting my shelves, Tuinstra recorded the Böhm CDs on the Schnitger organ St, Jacobi Kirche, Hamburg. The organists there at the time of Böhm was Heinrich Frese and Johann Joachim Heitmann. Böhm on the other hand never held an organist position in Hamburg, but served for more than thirty years as the organist of the St. Johannis Kirche, Lüneburg.


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## Mandryka

premont said:


> As far as I recall without consulting my shelves, Tuinstra recorded the Böhm CDs on the Schnitger organ St, Jacobi Kirche, Hamburg. The organists there at the time of Böhm was Heinrich Frese and Johann Joachim Heitmann. Böhm on the other hand never held an organist position in Hamburg, but served for more than thirty years as the organist of the St. Johannis Kirche, Lüneburg.


You know, I've never heard Bohm played on the organ at Lüneburg as far as I recall, I just saw in France-orgue that there is (was) a Bohm recording which uses it. I was wrong to suggest that he was organist at St Jacobi Hamburg, but he lived in Hamburg before moving to Lüneburg. He could well have written his organ music in Hamburg, with the Schnitger in mind.


----------



## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> I've been thinking alot about HiP and period instruments this week, divisive I know, and my developing attitude towards the issue. When I first started listening to baroque music a mere few months ago my choices were very much of the 'don't care' attitude. I listened to alot of what would be called 'romantic' interpretations of baroque played on modern instruments and I thought 'well, I don't really care' but then I was increasingly exposed to period instruments and I find my attitude changing. I've increasingly found that I prefer period instrumentation and this is my attempt to explain why. Disclaimer: what follows is my rather hamfisted attempt at articulating my feelings re. Period instruments.
> 
> *To my ears period instruments have a wonderful timbre, a rounded, woody tone that totally delights my ear. They seem to have round edges rather than sharp. I really love, what I am going to call, the attack of the instrument. It never seems harsh to me, rather it's pleasingly mellow and the interplay between period instruments seems to flow. They have an organic sound like they have been grown rather than forged.* I suppose it's mostly the absence of brassy, metallic tones I'm reacting to.
> 
> I thought, when I first started listening to baroque, that I would never be able to to tell the difference between modern and period but it turns out that I usually can and my ears and brain tell me that I prefer period instrumentation.


A great discussion to read. Thanks for the comments; also for the facts about baroque organists. :tiphat:

When I grew up & learned baroque pieces on my violin, there were no HIP performances, so I liked the tunes the way I heard them played. But for the past five years, I've been taking violin lessons from a teacher who is also a professional HIP violist and violinist. We've been going to concerts performed by his local HIP ensemble.

I do prefer the HIP sound - but I think I would anyway, because as a child of the 1960s, I reacted away from the 'wobbly vibrato' and smooth throbbing sound of violins playing romantic music. My Victorian grandmother adored that lush sound, but I was always drawn to a simpler sound, probably because I was born a folkie. 

I still enjoy performances on modern instruments, however. At present I am learning some Scottish baroque pieces from a book called Minuet & Thistle. Sometimes my teacher demonstrates phrases on his modern fiddle - and it still sounds great, and also very 'baroque', unlike my folk-y renditions.

Classical Yorkist, I couldn't put it into words, but in the paragraph above that I've italicised, you have summed up what I feel about the HIP sound. :cheers:


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## Mowgli

Belder or Scott Ross for a complete Scarlatti sonatas on harpsichord box?


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## tdc

^ I would go with Scott Ross, (you can sample both on youtube).


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## Ingélou

Not quite ready to gird up my loins for my *Mission to Appreciate Monteverdi* . So in the meantime, there's this delightful link to raise my spirits. What would the world do without Jordi Savall? :tiphat:





*La Folia from the Renaissance through the Baroque up to Vangelis*


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## classical yorkist

Ingélou said:


> Not quite ready to gird up my loins for my *Mission to Appreciate Monteverdi* .


Don't be frightened of Monteverdi! Just dive straight into the Vespers.


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## DavidA

classical yorkist said:


> Don't be frightened of Monteverdi! Just dive straight into the Vespers.


Exactly! Wonderful music!


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## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> Don't be frightened of Monteverdi! Just dive straight into the Vespers.












So that is what I did. 
And I am going to tell the truth about my reactions to the Baroque Music I listen to, even when I don't, as here, totally cotton on at the first hearing.

I want this thread to be somewhere where we can be honest about what we feel, and discuss it freely, taking it for granted that we all *love* Baroque and are respectful and friendly and well-disposed both towards The Music and to each other. :tiphat:

We listened to the first disc yesterday in the car. 
I was *wowed* by the rich sound of the full choir, which was *glorious*. However, it was one of those discs where, when single singers come on, you can't hear - so you turn the car cd player up, and get blasted away when the choir next comes in. 

The quieter sections - one or two female voices, or one or two male voices - I didn't find quite so palatable, but I could see the artistry and how beautiful, in a subtle clever way, the music was. It's possible that I would grow to like this style more if I gave it a few listenings, and I shall do just that.

The fault is definitely *not *with Monteverdi if I sometimes found the singing style like - oh dear, don't kill me - *exquisite gargling*. It must take very skilled vocal control, but when such singing is played to a folkie with the heart of a peasant, I'm afraid it's a case of *pearls before swine*.

To someone brought up on folk songs and country dance tunes written in major keys, the melodies and harmonies sounded so minor-key as to seem dischordant and out-of-tune. I would say that the sound was often *interestingly eerie* - until the next burst of Full-Choir Glory.

I am joking, of course, but I never felt like laughing ignorantly at these songs. I could hear and understand that it was lovely, and I could see that it *should be* moving to a true music-wallah. At present it seems like an alien language, where I recognise a few words and the more common phrases, but I will have to practise my skills.

Disc 2 - we'll probably listen to that on our journey to Somerset in the near future, where Taggart & I will be attending a traditional dance-music workshop - I with my fiddle, and he with his English concertina.
So - Monteverdi to the Bluebell Polka: from the sublime to the ridiculous...! :lol:


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## classical yorkist

You don't have to like everything, I don't listen to Monteverdi that much at all. If you don't like it move on to something you do, life's too short.

BTW. folkie here as well, morris dancer in fact.


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## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> You don't have to like everything, I don't listen to Monteverdi that much at all. If you don't like it move on to something you do, life's too short.
> 
> BTW. folkie here as well, morris dancer in fact.


Brilliant! Taggart & I once tried a morris dance workshop at the Durham Folk Festival (years ago) and found we just couldn't jump up and down and twirl hankies at the same time. (It maybe would have been better with the clashy sticks.) So you must have fab co-ordination. 

Taggart is learning some morris tunes on the concertina - Young Collins and Blue-eyed Stranger.

Re Monteverdi, I will keep on sampling, whether I like him or no, because I want to 'work through' the Wiki list and thus develop a mind-map of what Baroque music is about, and in what ways it developed over the years 1600-1750, the dates usually assigned to The Baroque Era.

Actually, I do like him, what I've heard of him so far - in *bitesize chunks*. 
One benefit of my project 'For love of the Baroque' is that I may develop my powers of concentration, from a gnat's to a bumble bee's...


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## Polyphemus

Ingélou said:


> Brilliant! Taggart & I once tried a morris dance workshop at the Durham Folk Festival (years ago) and found we just couldn't jump up and down and twirl hankies at the same time. (It maybe would have been better with the clashy sticks.) So you must have fab co-ordination.
> 
> Sinscerely hope it was captured on film and will be posted on youtube soon.:lol::lol::tiphat::tiphat:


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## Mowgli

:snoopyhappydance:


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## classical yorkist

I was ruminating on one of my primary interests last night after reading this thread and thought I'd post something of my thoughts. One of my major interests is context, to me context is everything, and trying to understand how the music would have been experienced in it's original historical context. I think we often listen to music by a composer like Monteverdi in the 'wrong way' (not really 'wrong' per see but removed from it's context). I know I'll often sit down and listen to a long piece of sacred music without the context of the actual service and the space within which the music takes place. As I understand it the music would not have been continuously but utilised at the correct times during a service to illustrate the meaning of the Bible texts being used. For excellent examples of this see Bach's cantatas or the music of Giovanni Gabrieli in Sacrae Symphonia (if you haven't listened to Gabrieli I strongly recommend you do). Reconstructing this experience, or wat could be called 'authentic listening', is impossible of course but it certainly exercises my thoughts.


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## Taggart

Something like Vespers would be sung all through where possible. It was a service of psalms and hymns finishing with a _Magnificat_ and then the closing prayers. A mass would only have music for the main choral bits - _Kyrie_, _Gloria_, _Credo_, _Sanctus_, _Benedictus_, _Pater Noster_ and _Agnus Dei_ - the rest would be either silent or chanted to a missal tone - basic plain chant.

The building would not (usually) matter unless you were considering polychoral works in their short lifetime.

The trouble is most Sacred Music depends on an understanding of the Catholic liturgy see Question on the Mass genre for some discussion.


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## Taggart

From today's Telegraph, Michel Chapuis organist at Versailles has died - obituary.


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## classical yorkist

Taggart said:


> Something like Vespers would be sung all through where possible. It was a service of psalms and hymns finishing with a _Magnificat_ and then the closing prayers. A mass would only have music for the main choral bits - _Kyrie_, _Gloria_, _Credo_, _Sanctus_, _Benedictus_, _Pater Noster_ and _Agnus Dei_ - the rest would be either silent or chanted to a missal tone - basic plain chant.
> 
> The building would not (usually) matter unless you were considering polychoral works in their short lifetime.
> 
> The trouble is most Sacred Music depends on an understanding of the Catholic liturgy see Question on the Mass genre for some discussion.


I wasn't sure about the Vespers being sung all through, I know there is some ambiguity re. Musical interludes in Monteverdi's Vespers.

In terms of the building in thinking that listening to a CD on a drive would be a vastly different experience than experiencing it in a church in Mantua.

On your last point you are totally correct and it's something I need to improve my knowledge of.


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## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> I wasn't sure about the Vespers being sung all through, I know there is some ambiguity re. Musical interludes in Monteverdi's Vespers.
> 
> *In terms of the building in thinking that listening to a CD on a drive would be a vastly different experience than experiencing it in a church in Mantua.
> *
> On your last point you are totally correct and it's something I need to improve my knowledge of.


A very good point. :tiphat:
Even if Vespers was continuous music (which I didn't know), if I was there, I would be worshipping, not just listening passively, and the atmosphere of the building would be a huge contribution too.

Come to think of it, what am I trying to do, '*sampling*' Monteverdi - what an arrogant and superficial attitude. 

We retired-teacher-bods are always castigating the young for their lack of concentration but I'm thinking I'd better steer clear of that in future.


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## Taggart

classical yorkist said:


> I wasn't sure about the Vespers being sung all through, I know there is some ambiguity re. Musical interludes in Monteverdi's Vespers.


Yes, the view seems to be that Monteverdi left the antiphons out to make the music more "portable" since the antiphons would be more specific to a particular day. This in turn leads to the problem that the choirmaster would have to fudge between plainchant antiphons and Monteverdi's settings. This is often the situation today in Catholic worship where the priest intones a preface in plain chant (modal) followed by a modern (tonal) Sanctus or leads up to the Amen followed by a modern Amen.


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## classical yorkist

This is worth watching:


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## Ingélou

We listened to this while driving to and from church this morning. It's Part 2 of the one we listened to before, which I didn't entirely take to.










This one was *seraphic*. :angel::angel::angel:

I've been puzzled to know *why* I had such a different response to this. I haven't had time to acclimatise to the sound, so that can't be it.

* *But* this one didn't seem to as much 'male-voice-on-its-own' (or in duet) as the other one, so it may be about my taste - I prefer female/ boy soprano/counter-tenor voices, or else a blend of these with tenors et al.

* *Also* this one had more alternation of voice and instrumental line, the one commenting on the other, which I love, and which makes it almost dramatic, a conversation.

* *And* this one was full of Marian sonatas and Ave Marias, which meant it had more joy and less angst, and it exhilarated me.

* *Plus* - being full of Ave Marias, the pieces were short, suitable for one like me with limited concentration.

*But anyway* - I *admired* the first, and *loved* the second!


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## classical yorkist

I've listened to the Vespers, and some other works, quite a few times this past week or so and my opinion of Monteverdi has been enriched somewhat. I can understand why he's revered quite so much and his life story is quite interesting also. However, he's just not a composer that I'll see myself listening to very often, if at all.


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## classical yorkist

Anyway, I find myself currently listening to the incredibly obscure Matthias Weckman.


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## Ingélou

^^^^ I'm listening - it's lovely. :tiphat:
Twangly rapture - very guitaresque.

Seems a pity that he's 'incredibly obscure'.


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## classical yorkist

Ingélou said:


> Seems a pity that he's 'incredibly obscure'.


Isn't that the way with so many baroque composers?

Some of those pieces are played on the fascinating lute-harpsichord. 
http://http://www.baroquemusic.org/barluthp.html

A favourite of Bach.


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## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> Isn't that the way with so many baroque composers?
> 
> *Some of those pieces are played on the fascinating lute-harpsichord. *
> http://www.baroquemusic.org/barluthp.html
> 
> A favourite of Bach.


Ah - that explains it! 










Anyway, Tag has now put up a composer guestbook for Matthias Weckmann so he won't be so obscure, at least for us.
Mathias Weckmann (1616 - 1674)

Thanks very much for alerting me to his existence, classical yorkist. :tiphat:


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## Taggart

Also for his teacher Heinrich Schütz - Heinrich Schütz (1585 - 1672)


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## tdc

classical yorkist said:


> I've listened to the Vespers, and some other works, quite a few times this past week or so and my opinion of Monteverdi has been enriched somewhat. I can understand why he's revered quite so much and his life story is quite interesting also. However, he's just not a composer that I'll see myself listening to very often, if at all.


He definitely stands out as a unique composer within his era, so it makes sense that not all Baroque aficionados will necessarily resonate with his music. My opinion of his work continues to grow, with the opposite effect you've experienced, I continue to want to listen to his music more to the point where between him and J.S. Bach I don't listen to that much Baroque music outside of those two composers anymore.


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## classical yorkist

Taggart said:


> Also for his teacher Heinrich Schütz - Heinrich Schütz (1585 - 1672)


Well, Schutz is a giant of baroque. Well, in my world he is.  His Musicalishe Exequien should be required listening in this thread. Ditto his Christmas Story.


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## classical yorkist

tdc said:


> He definitely stands out as a unique composer within his era, so it makes sense that not all Baroque aficionados will necessarily resonate with his music. My opinion of his work continues to grow, with the opposite effect you've experienced, I continue to want to listen to his music more to the point where between him and J.S. Bach I don't listen to that much Baroque music outside of those two composers anymore.


I can't really articulate why, it's not that I dislike his music it's more that it just doesn't touch, or move, me like a lot of other baroque composers do. I admire his music but don't love it.


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## premont

Ingélou said:


> ^^^^ I'm listening - it's lovely. :tiphat:
> Twangly rapture - very guitaresque.
> 
> Seems a pity that he's 'incredibly obscure'.


He (Weckmann) is not that obscure.

But do not forget his organ works. Cheap and serviceable recordings can be had (played by Friedrich Flamme or Joseph Kelemen), but this one is the best even if a bit more expensive:

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/de...nn-1619-1674-Orgelwerke-Ges-Aufn/hnum/6198635


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## Taggart

Schütz is generally regarded as the most important German composer before Johann Sebastian Bach and often considered to be one of the most important composers of the 17th century. Here's his version of psalm 150:


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## Marinera

Suddenly in the last few days I developed an addiction to Vivaldi's one of the late violin concertos RV 386, played by Carmignola posted below. I tried listening to other late violin concertos on his disc, but can't get past this one yet.


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## classical yorkist

I have been listening to a glut of baroque music for Advent this morning (I know that strictly it doesn't start until Sunday). I'm going to listen to a lot of Christmas music this month, lots of cantatas and magnificats. I will also endeavour to get it right, religion does not come naturally to me to say the least.


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## Dirge

A new recording of an old warhorse …

G. F. HANDEL: _Water Music_ (1717)
:: Cummings/FestspielOrchester Göttingen [Accent, live '16]

I've never really had a favorite recording of Handel's _Water Music_, but this live one from the 2016 Internationale Händel Festspiele Göttingen might change that. The festival orchestra is populated by musical mercenaries (HAVE OBOE ~ WILL TRAVEL) and moonlighters from many of Europe's top HIP ensembles, all under the direction of the festival's music director, Laurence Cummings. The performance is as historically informed and thoughtfully conceived as you'd expect, but it has no academic/musicological axe to grind or overbearing presumption of authenticity. Indeed, the approach is quite well-rounded and catholic, staking out an interpretative middle ground that relies on the quality of the music-making rather than the novelty of it-not that quality and novelty are mutually exclusive, mind you. As it turns out, the quality of the music-making is damn good, with the live festival atmosphere providing that extra spark that live festival atmospheres so often do. Solos are as stylish and characterful as they could be, and the orchestra plays with infectious vitality and _joie de vivre_ throughout, always having a glint in its eye and a spring in its step while still conveying an underlying sense of ceremony and gravitas. All in all, it would be difficult to imagine a more well-rounded account, one that better balances the many and varied aspects of the music than this one. The recorded sound is clear and close yet natural, with good balances and a nice amount of air/atmosphere-it's quite vivid.


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## Tallisman

I've lost touch with the Baroque recently. Still regularly listen to the WTC, but apart from that, it's just not interesting me at the moment in the same way as later music 

I'm going to stick on the Monteverdi Vespers and see if that has any effect.


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## Ingélou

Dirge said:


> A new recording of an old warhorse …
> 
> G. F. HANDEL: _Water Music_ (1717)
> :: Cummings/FestspielOrchester Göttingen [Accent, live '16]
> 
> I've never really had a favorite recording of Handel's _Water Music_, but this live one from the 2016 Internationale Händel Festspiele Göttingen might change that. The festival orchestra is populated by musical mercenaries (HAVE OBOE ~ WILL TRAVEL) and moonlighters from many of Europe's top HIP ensembles, all under the direction of the festival's music director, Laurence Cummings. The performance is as historically informed and thoughtfully conceived as you'd expect, but it has no academic/musicological axe to grind or overbearing presumption of authenticity. Indeed, the approach is quite well-rounded and catholic, staking out an interpretative middle ground that relies on the quality of the music-making rather than the novelty of it-not that quality and novelty are mutually exclusive, mind you. As it turns out, the quality of the music-making is damn good, with the live festival atmosphere providing that extra spark that live festival atmospheres so often do. Solos are as stylish and characterful as they could be, and the orchestra plays with infectious vitality and _joie de vivre_ throughout, always having a glint in its eye and a spring in its step while still conveying an underlying sense of ceremony and gravitas. All in all, it would be difficult to imagine a more well-rounded account, one that better balances the many and varied aspects of the music than this one. The recorded sound is clear and close yet natural, with good balances and a nice amount of air/atmosphere-it's quite vivid.


What a brilliant review - so detailed & interesting! :tiphat:



Tallisman said:


> I've lost touch with the Baroque recently. Still regularly listen to the WTC, but apart from that, it's just not interesting me at the moment in the same way as later music
> 
> I'm going to stick on the Monteverdi Vespers and see if that has any effect.


Liking Baroque Music is not compulsory!
I hope you enjoy your Monteverdi - if not, have a break, and love the music you're with.


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## Ingélou

My latest musical love affair is with *William McGibbon (?1690-1756)*. 
I've just come on to his ravishing minuet in 'Thistle & Minuet', the music book that I'm working through with my HIP fiddle teacher. Unfortunately very little is known about him, and there isn't much to choose from on YouTube - but there's this:






As I've posted elsewhere, at the moment I'm very worried about my 97-year-old mother, currently in hospital with pneumonia and her dementia much exacerbated.

It's good to know that in the middle of turmoil and sadness there will always be *Scottish Baroque*!


----------



## classical yorkist

Ingélou said:


> My latest musical love affair is with *William McGibbon (1696-1756)*.
> I've just come on to his ravishing minuet in 'Thistle & Minuet', the music book that I'm working through with my HIP fiddle teacher. Unfortunately very little is known about him, and there isn't much to choose from on YouTube - but there's this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As I've posted elsewhere, at the moment I'm very worried about my 97-year-old mother, currently in hospital with pneumonia and her dementia much exacerbated.
> 
> It's good to know that in the middle of turmoil and sadness there will always be *Scottish Baroque*!
> 
> View attachment 99724


Very sorry to hear about your troubling family situation (I have experience certificate of dementia in my family so appreciate your worries), hopefully you will find a modicum of solace in baroque music.

I've never heard of the composer you linked, I will listen.


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## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> Very sorry to hear about your troubling family situation (I have experience certificate of dementia in my family so appreciate your worries), hopefully you will find a modicum of solace in baroque music.
> 
> I've never heard of the composer you linked, I will listen.


Thank you very much, classical yorkist, for your kind wishes. :tiphat:

My favourite music - as a folkie - is where Scottish traditional music meets the baroque. 'Thistle and minuet' is full of folk songs arranged for sheet music by the baroque violinists of eighteenth-century Scotland, as well as some lovely art arrangements. James Oswald and The Earl of Kellie are probably the best known Scottish baroque composers of this type of music.

William McGibbon is very obscure and best known, probably, for bits and pieces set in the classical violin grade exams, and also for his settings of Scottish songs. This is nice:






The whole subject of 'the golden age of Scottish fiddle music' is dealt with in this video lecture. I find it interesting, but the sound quality is very poor.


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## Ingélou

One of the loveliest examples of Scottish baroque available on YouTube. I have a sheet music book called Four Scottish Sonatas which contains this, and hope to have a crack at it next year in my fiddle lessons! I may not get anywhere, but the scenery on the ride will be stunning! 






James Oswald, Hawthorn Sonata - by Shane Lestideau and the Evergreen Ensemble.


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## Ingélou

Finally, as an example of Scottish baroque-folk crossover with a big dollop of *groove*, here's my fiddle teacher taking time off from HIP strictness! 

(From a Norwich Baroque concert - The Earl of Kellie's Reel; James O'Toole violinist.)






(I must confess that, as a folk-and-baroque purist, I prefer the *early stages* of this video. Fiddle Guru has given me a lovely mp3 of him playing it 'straight' which I love to play along with. )


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## Taggart

I've added a guestbook on William McGibbon - William McGibbon (1690 - 1756)


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## classical yorkist

You've set me thinking about the intersection of folk and baroque today Ingelou, something I hadn't considered before. As my interest lies in English folk music I started thinking about John Playford (which folkie can say they've never been to a Playford dance?) and whether he is a baroque composer. My thoughts are tempered by the difficulty in dating folk tunes, of course, and his Dancing Master is a compilation of earlier tunes/melodies rather than original compositions. Are Morris tunes baroque? (I really love William and Nancy and that has quite a baroque feel especially as played the Full English band) It turns out that Playford was indeed a composer as well as a compiler and his Division Violin sounds like something worth exploring. He also seems to have written some harpsichord and music for Psalms. I think Playford is in need of a serious exploration.


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## Taggart

Fascinating post @ classical yorkist :tiphat: I did a little research and this is what I've come up with:

The Division Violin - IMSLP - http://imslp.org/wiki/The_Division_Violin_(Playford,_John) -is part of a long tradition of divisions in English music. Many of the variations in the Fitzwilliam virginal book are based on divisions. Playford was cashing in on a tradition of divisions upon the viol based on music by Eccles, William Lawes, John Jenkins and Christopher Simpson. Playford had published Simpson's Division Viol in 1659. When Charles II returned in 1660, he brought the French idea of a Violin Orchestra with him. Playford with John Bannister produced a Division Violin to take advantage of the change in taste.

Walsh, Playford's successor (and Handel's publisher) followed the trend with the Division Flute in 1706/1708. The wiki article gives details of all the pieces.

Morris probably pre-dates the baroque - Kemp danced a jig - a Morris figure not the 6/8 tune - from London to Norwich (where Playford came from!). The expression gigue really means a hop.


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## Dirge

Fans of Monteverdi's _Vespro della beata Vergine_ (1610) who are looking to delve further into his later sacred music should explore the motley assortment of first-rate leftovers known as _Selva morale e spirituale_ (1640/41) and the smaller but no less motley Missae et Psalmi (1650). _Selva morale_ was published only a few years before Monteverdi's death and comprises 40 or so works that yield about four hours of music; Missae et Psalmi was published posthumously and comprises 15 works that yield about two hours of music. The unwieldiness of these two bulky and diverse collections keeps them from achieving anything like the popularity of the more focused and marketable _Vespers_, but a number of the individual works are about the equal of anything in the _Vespers_. Highlights include Beatus vir I, Gloria a 7, and Confitebor (Terzo alla francese) [from _Selva morale_] and Laetatus sum a 6 [from Missae et Psalmi]. There are a fair number of recordings of _Selva morale_ to be had, not so many of Missae et Psalmi; most are selections, but a few are more or less complete surveys. My favorite set comes from the early '80s:

Claudio MONTEVERDI: _Selva morale e spirituale_; Missae et Psalmi
:: Bernius/Kammerchor Stuttgart, Barockensemble Stuttgart [Astoria 90032/34]

This 3-CD Astoria set brings together some earlier FSM releases and comprises about two thirds of _Selva morale_ and half of Missae et Psalmi. It features a small-to-medium sized chorus and period-instrument ensemble, both of which sound just the right size to my ears. Bernius sets the agenda but has the confidence and good sense to let his savvy team carry it out with minimal intervention on his part. Consequently, there's a strong sense of involvement and interaction, of give and take, among the performers, and they respond enthusiastically with vital, expressive singing and playing that is chock-full of character-and there's nothing self-consciously "authentic" about any of it: it's simply top-notch music-making that happens to be carried out on period instruments and with a sensible regard for period practices. It should be noted, however, that the playing/singing has a certain rustic character about it, with heavy_ish_ (not grape-stomping heavy or anything like that, but ever so slightly heavier than usual in this fare) rhythms and a slightly earthy/roughhewn sonic finish. As much as I and my goatherd friends like it, the more urbane and aristocratic listeners among you may be put off by these bucolic tendencies and insist upon performances that are, shall we say, more commensurate with your breeding and station in life.


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## classical yorkist

Taggart said:


> Fascinating post @ classical yorkist :tiphat: I did a little research and this is what I've come up with:
> 
> The Division Violin - IMSLP - http://imslp.org/wiki/The_Division_Violin_(Playford,_John) -is part of a long tradition of divisions in English music. Many of the variations in the Fitzwilliam virginal book are based on divisions. Playford was cashing in on a tradition of divisions upon the viol based on music by Eccles, William Lawes, John Jenkins and Christopher Simpson. Playford had published Simpson's Division Viol in 1659. When Charles II returned in 1660, he brought the French idea of a Violin Orchestra with him. Playford with John Bannister produced a Division Violin to take advantage of the change in taste.
> 
> Walsh, Playford's successor (and Handel's publisher) followed the trend with the Division Flute in 1706/1708. The wiki article gives details of all the pieces.
> 
> Morris probably pre-dates the baroque - Kemp danced a jig - a Morris figure not the 6/8 tune - from London to Norwich (where Playford came from!). The expression gigue really means a hop.


Gosh I'm quite excited by this line of enquiry. I've heard some Lawes and Jenkins and they're very good but I wonder why Playford is not mentioned as an English baroque composer? I've listened to some small snippets of his Division Violin on YouTube this morning and I'm impressed. Sadly, I cannot seem to find comprehensive recordings of his music, looking through my collection I have the excellent Nobody's Jig CD and the Ashley Hutchings/John Kirkpatrick recordings but I find I'm hungry for some complete works.

Re. Morris dancing, I was merely thinking aloud and particularly musing on the tunes and from whence they may date rather than the tradition as a whole.


----------



## josquindesprez

Dirge said:


> Fans of Monteverdi's _Vespro della beata Vergine_ (1610) who are looking to delve further into his later sacred music should explore the motley assortment of first-rate leftovers known as _Selva morale e spirituale_ (1640/41) and the smaller but no less motley Missae et Psalmi (1650).


Agreed!



Dirge said:


> My favorite set comes from the early '80s:
> 
> Claudio MONTEVERDI: _Selva morale e spirituale_; Missae et Psalmi
> :: Bernius/Kammerchor Stuttgart, Barockensemble Stuttgart [Astoria 90032/34]


I haven't heard that one, but I've found the Cantus Köln recording to be quite enjoyable:









I'd also recommend (again) for anyone who likes the Monteverdi Vespers to give the Francesco Cavalli Vespero della Beata Vergine Maria a turn. There are clear echoes of Monteverdi in that one, logical given that Cavalli was Monteverdi's student.


----------



## tdc

Tallisman said:


> I've lost touch with the Baroque recently. Still regularly listen to the WTC, but apart from that, it's just not interesting me at the moment in the same way as later music
> 
> *I'm going to stick on the Monteverdi Vespers and see if that has any effect.*


Be sure to listen to the Gardiner version (the one in post #145 of this thread). I think its substantially better than other versions I've heard, and I would like to extend thanks to classical Yorkist for posting it.


----------



## Ariasexta

Cavalli is more antiquated than Monteverdi in sacred music, but influence is still obviously in his declamatory motet settings. Monteverdi`s seriously looking toward the 1650s in his sacred music even his 1610 vesper is reminiscent of middle 17th century cantatas. This is what makes Monteverdi`s music interesting. Selva Morale is a set of very fine motets, he employs some technics of secular music into the sacred texts but structurally conservative, thus producing freer melody lines than his contemporaries. I think that Monteverdi himself almost invented sacred cantata genre, but he inspired his pupils in the new genre in stead. As far as I remember, it was his pupil Alessandro Grandi who invented the canata genre.


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## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> This is worth watching:


I am listening to this now, and it is sublime. :tiphat:


----------



## Dirge

François COUPERIN: _Les Folies françoises, ou les Dominos_ from «Pièces de clavecin, livre III, 13e ordre» (1722)
:: Sokolov [Astrée, live '01]





 (_Les Folies françoises, ou les Dominos_ begins at about 11'07" and ends at about 19'43"; there are timing links to the various sections in the first comment below the video.)

While decidedly on the beaten path in the harpsichord world, _Les Folies françoises, ou les Dominos_ is slightly off the beaten path in the piano world. I'm not a particular fan of Couperin or of Sokolov, so I like this recording more than I ought to. The piece is vividly described here by Angela Hewitt:

«After this relatively innocent beginning, we turn to high drama with the arrival of _Les Folies françoises, ou les Dominos_. It is a miniature theme and variations using the same Folia bass as _Les Folies d'Espagne_. Each variation depicts a character arriving at a masked ball. Philippe d'Orléans frequently hosted such events that became known for their scandal. In the one portrayed here we have Virginity arriving in an invisible cloak (or domino). Then appears Modesty in pink, followed by Ardour in a flesh-coloured cloak. Hope comes next, sporting green, followed by Fidelity in blue. And after Fidelity? Perserverance arrives in flaxen grey, with Languor in purple not far behind. Coquetry livens things up a bit wearing different colours (wonderfully portrayed by the use of three different time signatures in the first four bars). The Old Roués and Pensioned-off Courtesans stumble in, wearing crimson and verdigris. Then come the benevolent Cuckolds in yellow, accompanied by a cuckoo-like musical motif. Silent Jealousy in Moorish grey takes to the bottom of the keyboard in a very sinister variation. The last character to arrive is Frenzy or Despair-in black. As Wilfrid Mellers writes: "The work is a microcosm of Couperin's art, its tragic passion, its witty urbanity, its sensuous charm."»

Although I'm no fan of the harpsichord, I can well understand those listeners who prefer Couperin played on that vile instrument, as Couperin's harpsichord music is so inherently harpsichordish that it never quite naturally translates to the piano. I suspect that the music also gains from being played on an instrument tuned as it would have been in Couperin's day to some unequal temperament scheme that allows for key color. Sokolov violates all of this by playing a modernly tuned modern piano in a manner that suggests that he too is no fan of the harpsichord, but I favor his account nonetheless.


----------



## Ariasexta

> François COUPERIN: Les Folies françoises, ou les Dominos from «Pièces de clavecin, livre III, 13e ordre» (1722)
> :: Sokolov [Astrée, live '01


]

Playing any baroque music on piano or fortepiano is no longer baroque, but a romanticization. I will never listen to classical music with piano in it. Only in rock music, piano is allowed, there are some rock stars can write nice music, better than most modernist academic composers I suppose. For example this one:


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## Ingélou

Ah well, this thread is celebrating baroque music, whether played 'HIP' (as my fiddle teacher does) or not (as I grew up with). Whatever is beautiful - whatever TC members like. 

For myself, I just love the harpsichord sound and don't generally enjoy baroque music as much when it's played on the piano. However, there are exceptions - I remember when Taggart learned a gorgeous coranto by Bach and was playing it on our home piano. I loved it. 

Thank you for all the posts so far. Even lovers of Glenn Gould's playing of Bach (like my husband) are welcome!


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## Ingélou

This is 'renaissance' rather than 'baroque', but I am posting it in honour of my beloved mother who died yesterday, aged 97, in her nearby care home. She had six children, and was always 'there for us'. 
Let's hear it for mothers everywhere. :tiphat:


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## Ingélou

I've not been listening much recently with my personal life being so fraught, but this piece of Monteverdi is lovely - I am looking forward to resuming my OP project in the New Year.






Do any of you have any baroque music lined up for your 'Christmas stockings' - or maybe as a New Year's Resolution?


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## Mowgli

Ingélou said:


> Do any of you have any baroque music lined up for your 'Christmas stockings' - or maybe as a New Year's Resolution?


I got the BC Bach Edition and Italian Baroque box & DHM 100CD box for Xmas during .de's 3fur2 sale
Mrs Mowgli & MIL gifted $100 towards it. Whole lotta baroque for ~$200 total


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## classical yorkist

Ingélou said:


> Do any of you have any baroque music lined up for your 'Christmas stockings' - or maybe as a New Year's Resolution?


I got a nice little haul. Telemann's complete Tafelmusik, Bach's Mass in B Minor, Kunst der Fugue & Musicalishe Opfer and a collection of mid 17th century music from the Netherlands.


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## Ingélou

Taking some time off from Monteverdi, and from my worries about Mum's funeral next week, to listen to Georg Muffat, 12 Concerti Grossi:






I'm feeling quite pleased with myself because I thought it reminiscent of Lully - and it seems that Muffat studied in Paris, maybe even under Jean-Baptiste himself.

It's lovely - I like this 'slightly-earlier' baroque music very much - maybe because it's simpler, and maybe because, being 'Lullian', it has a dancy flourish to it. It raises my spirits, and consoles with a statement that 'Whatever happens, beauty is here, music is here, God* is here...'

And of course Muffat had Scottish blood in him. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_Muffat

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*(or 'something timeless')


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## Dirge

Antonio VIVALDI: _L'estro armonico_ ~ 12 Concertos, Op. 3 (pub. 1711)
:: Podger/Brecon Baroque [Channel '14]




:: Biondi/Europa Galante [Virgin '97/'98]





_L'estro armonico_ was a favorite of mine back in the halcyon days of yore, but it slipped from my consciousness and has been all but absent from my listening since the Reagan/Thatcher/Wojtyła years. Recently, however, it slipped back into my consciousness, and I've been checking out the current crop of recordings (focusing on my favorite concertos, nos. 6, 8, 10 & 11). I'll limit my comments to two of the more interesting and popular sets, one a favorite and one not …

The current darling of the critics seems to be Podger/Brecon Baroque, a relaxed (low-tension) familial affair that stresses inner dialog and varied, highly inflected phrasing in a clearly punctuated/demarcated rhythmic setting-it's all very colorful and imaginative in its intimate (but not introverted) way, often sounding more chamber music than concerto. The playing is alert and highly proficient but not especially forceful or dynamic, and attacks tend to be slightly rounded off/eased into, so there's a certain softness/gentleness to the playing that sometimes comes off as unenergetic, especially when tension is as low as it is. Tempos tend to be moderate or slowish in the fast movements but almost always a good deal faster than usual in slow movements. The set has lots of highlights-the opening of No. 11 is particularly well done-and I admire the imaginative phrasing and engaging interaction of the players, but the general presentation is too gentle and relaxed for my severe and uptight taste. The warm and vivid recorded sound is very appealing and well-suited to the playing.

As it stands, my tentative favorite is the swashbuckling and tense/suspenseful/dramatic account by Biondi/Europa Galante-not a big surprise given my liking of the same team's ultra-popular 2000 recording of the _Four Seasons_. The playing here doesn't strike me as being quite as bold as it is in the _Four Seasons_, but that might be a good thing in this less animated and less programmatic music. Rather than delving into dubious specifics, I'll sum things up in one big dubious generality: if one likes Biondi, one will like this set; if one hates Biondi, one will hate this set. My main reservation about the set is that Biondi is too prominently balanced in the scheme of things, standing out too much from the ensemble in all concertos and also standing out from the other soloists in multi-soloist concertos-though the latter is more about Biondi's dominant musical personality than about instrumental balances. The recorded sound is a bit dry, opaque, and constricted, but not to an off-putting extent.


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## Ingélou

^^^^
Thanks for this very interesting review, Dirge - fabulous! :tiphat:


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## GioCar

Mollie, thank you for this wonderful thread.

My little contribution: I recently acquired this awesome set










and I'm going through it with immense pleasure.

I'd say that Telemann, always a bit neglected by me, unveils many gems I wasn't aware of before.


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## Ingélou

GioCar said:


> Mollie, thank you for this wonderful thread.
> 
> My little contribution: I recently acquired this awesome set
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and I'm going through it with immense pleasure.
> 
> I'd say that Telemann, always a bit neglected by me, unveils many gems I wasn't aware of before.


I haven't listened to enough Telemann either - but whenever I have, he never disappoints - so this is a very good heads-up, Giocar. :tiphat:


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## Ingélou

Re Georg Muffat, I've just seen this comment on the YouTube Link:

*In English speaking countries there is an old nursery rhyme about Little Miss Muffat/sat on a tuffet/ eating her curds and whey/ along came a spider/and sat down beside her/and frightened Miss Muffat away! -well Miss Muffat was a real person and she was a daughter of a certain Scottish doctor called Muffat who was the ancestor of the composer(and his son) whose surname was Muffat -they having migrated to the continent.﻿*

It's usually spelled as 'Miss Muffet' but still, it's a fascinating snippet. 

I first found out about Georg Muffat when my fiddle teacher posted a YouTube clip of his on my Facebook page. Here's the composer guestbook we did on him:

Georg Muffat


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## Dirge

G. F. HANDEL: _Zadok the Priest_ (1727)
:: Marriner/ASMF [Philips '84]

Although this performance is kinder and gentler (softer edged) than I'd prefer, the Academy plays/sings very well in that context, and Marriner does a very good job of building tension and suspense throughout the 1½-minute instrumental introduction in anticipation of the big choral entry-a dying art these days, it would seem. Unfortunately, many directors take the introduction in a deadpan manner without generating any tension or building any suspense or sense of anticipation en route to the choral entry, trying to lull you into a relaxed, unguarded state so that the big/sudden/abrupt choral entry will have maximum surprise/shock value. Fasolis takes such a flatline approach, and Christophers goes one step farther by very slightly fading off a split second before the choral entry. While they do indeed succeed in producing a moment of surprise/shock, it's very short-lived in effect and comes at the cost of a wasted minute and a half-in other words, Fasolis and Christophers don't let the audience know that there's a bomb under the table …

_There is a distinct difference between "suspense" and "surprise," and yet many pictures continually confuse the two. I'll explain what I mean.

We are now having a very innocent little chat. Let's suppose that there is a bomb underneath this table between us. Nothing happens, and then all of a sudden, "Boom!" There is an explosion. The public is surprised, but prior to this surprise, it has seen an absolutely ordinary scene, of no special consequence. Now, let us take a suspense situation. The bomb is underneath the table and the public knows it, probably because they have seen the anarchist place it there. The public is aware the bomb is going to explode at one o'clock and there is a clock in the decor. The public can see that it is a quarter to one. In these conditions, the same innocuous conversation becomes fascinating because the public is participating in the scene. The audience is longing to warn the characters on the screen: "You shouldn't be talking about such trivial matters. There is a bomb beneath you and it is about to explode!"

In the first case we have given the public fifteen seconds of surprise at the moment of the explosion. In the second we have provided them with fifteen minutes of suspense. The conclusion is that whenever possible the public must be informed. Except when the surprise is a twist, that is, when the unexpected ending is, in itself, the highlight of the story._

- Alfred Hitchcock





 (Marriner/ASMF)





 (Fasolis/I Barocchisti)





 (Christophers/The Sixteen)


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## EchoEcho

I'm joining this thread a little late (great idea and thanks Ingelou), but it will give me a good excuse to make a "traversal" through my baroque music collection, and maybe fill in a few gaps along the way. I'll try to follow at least loosely the wiki Baroque composer list chronologically. But so as not to make a major ordeal of it, I'm gonna try to limit myself to just a few discs per decade. But we'll see how it goes. I'll try to post notes from my traversal here as it progresses.

By the way, I'm a collector, not a streamer, and never a youtuber (I think I somehow broke youtube in my browser while disabling auto-play of video ads). So unfortunately I won't be able to partake in the youtube links shared above. Also, as a collector, I try to listen through my entire collection every year or two, so a lot of what I listen to will be stuff that I bought thanks to that (very expensive for me) Pre-1700 thread that appeared here a year or two ago.

I'm not a huge fan of Baroque, but I like it, and I especially like some of the off-the-beaten-path stuff which sounds more casual than some of the highly structured and/or mainstream stuff. I also don't really know that much about Baroque music, so this traversal will also help me form some opinions, re-listen to some music I've only heard once or twice, and make some new discoveries.

With that rather longish intro, I'll start my traversal with this disc from 1589:

Intermedi per "La Pellegrina"









Peri was one of the contributors I think, so I can tick that name off the list. :devil:

Listening Notes:

Notwithstanding the huge historical significance of this album, my own self-satisfaction at finding it some years ago, or even the excellent voices (Emma Kirkby, etc), I'm giving it a Pretty Good to Good on my listenability scale (2.5 stars).

Although there is good variety between tracks (soloist and/or chorus, usually with instrumental accompaniment), for the most part these are pretty simple melodies still sung fairly stiffly. Although no doubt revolutionary for the time, there's not much passion or spontaneity for this modern listener.

Still, I'm glad to have it in my collection and look forward to hearing it again. It would be nice to carefully listen, try to make out the stylistic differences between composers, etc. With more general knowledge, more would be revealed to the listener.


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## EchoEcho

Next up:

Giovanni Bassano Amor sacro Amor profane
Capricornus Ensemble Stuttgart, Monika Mauch
Coviello Classics









I'm struggling to understand how this album got in my collection, or why I have the date for all the tracks as 1591. Apparently I picked it up during a browsing session about a year ago, after sampling tracks. Download without booklet.

Anyway, Bassano was a big part of the scene in Venice before and after 1600, arguably the man behind Giovanni Gabrieli, and also an influence on Heinrich Schütz. Also on the album are tracks from Marenzio, Rore, Palestrina, and Striggio.

I find this album quite enjoyable. The brass works from the time of course sound wonderful, and there are some nice brass "duets" with organ and/or soprano. Monika Mauch also sounds great.

This music breathes. I give it a 3.5 (Good to Very Good) - on the listenability scale. I'm a bit of a tightwad with the stars, so that's a good score in my book.


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## EchoEcho

Staying in Venice.... (if only!)

A New Venetian Coronation, 1595
Gabrieli Consort & Players, Paul McCreesh









Hardly worth posting that album cover.

Nevertheless, this disc strikes me as a wonderful and extremely realistic historical re-enactment, all very tastefully and artistically performed. I am tempted to give it four stars, but it's not the kind of thing you listen to on repeat. The first track is absolutely stunning, but by the time you make to the end of the disc you are ready for it to end.

So 3.5 stars!

It occurs to me that it is a little unfair to judge historical works based upon how pleasant they are to listen to, since often they were not intended to give pleasure.

Oh well. Nothing in life is perfect.

Now what to listen to next....


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## Ingélou

:tiphat: EchoEcho, thanks for these posts - very interesting to read, and I look forward to more!


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## EchoEcho

Back to Florence....

LI DUE ORFEI - Giulio Caccini & Jacopo Peri









This is "nuovo musiche" aka "monody". What does that mean? In this case, one person singing while his wife plays a plucked instrument (Arpa doppia a tre registri).

Caccini and Peri are perhaps more famous for larger works, but both apparently had illustrious singing careers, and wrote and performed music like this.

This is of course at once an ancient and modern style of music. I suppose that "nuovo musiche" was at least in part a "return to roots" and/or an escape from the highly stylized formalism of church polyphony, but no doubt the movement was more complicated than that.

Here's a telling quote from the booklet:

_As Vicenzo Galilei commented at the time: 'The greater the number of singers singing simultaneously, the less one can understand an aria's true meaning and the less its character will move the soul of the audience.'
_
Anyway, this is very pleasant music. 3.5 stars.


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## EchoEcho

Sticking with Peri...

Peri: Euridice (Live)
Les Arts Baroque, Mireille Podeur

View attachment 100996


This to me sounds like chamber opera. Is that a category? Anyway, it's probably appropriate given the size of the performance venues at the time.

Stylistically, surprisingly similar to the previous album, adjusted only to accommodate a longer "story song" involving multiple singers.

Pending further listening, 3 stars.

PS: Here's an interesting quote from the booklet:

_With "Euridice" Peri stripped vocal composition of its stilo antico polyphonic legacy in order to create a new aesthetic of melody, and paved the way to the glories of opera.
_
I'm not sure I agree with this. If you assume that the preceding a cappella polyphonic style was the "normal" way of making music, then Peri's approach might seem revolutionary. But if you see Peri's style as a natural form of music-making, shared by musicians through the ages from Orpheus to Cat Stevens, then his "revolution" was really just a relaxation of prevailing cultural pretenses.


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## EchoEcho

Next up:

Monteverdi: Vespro della Beata Vergine
La Compagnia del Madrigale

View attachment 101000


I, like Ingelou, have had troubles with getting into Monteverdi. I once had my copy of Monteverdi's Orfeo on "random play" mode for hours without realizing it. For this traversal I am replacing my (proto-jazz?) Pluhar version of Vespers with this much grander and much slower version. We'll see if this interpretation works better for me than the Pluhar version.

Inevitably, the growing popularity of more innovative secular music would have some impact on sacred music. This Vespers, apparently a "resume" prepared by Monteverdi when seeking a better position than his one in Mantua, was a kind of compendium of his talents in the genre, though intended for princely apartments rather than just churches.

The full (translated) title:
_For the Most Holy Virgin a Mass in six parts, and Vespers to be sung by many voices, with several sacred songs, suited for princely chapels or apartments, works recently made by Claudio Monteverdi and dedicated to His Holiness, Pope Paul V_

I imagine that Monteverdi faced the challenge of trying to satifsy the unknown tastes of his future employer. He would want to both demonstrate the newer musical styles (to appeal to that crowd) and also demonstrate reasonable loyalty to more traditional styles (in case his future employer liked traditional forms better).

So I'm listening for a blend of the old and the new, and particularly early examples of "basso continuo", whatever that is.

It may be that Monteverdi includes traditional plainchant as a kind of foundation voice, then adds additional melodies/voices on top. That structure later morphs into the basso continuo practice so dominant in Baroque music. Maybe??

I sure don't know. But it is clear to my uninformed ears that this music is quite a bit more sophisticated than the earlier Pellegrina music of 1589, at least in how the instrumental accompaniment is used. Whereas in that work, the instruments just played along with the voices (tutti?), here the instruments are usually doing their own thing.

Later...

Having listened all the way through, I can say I probably like this version better than the Pluhar, but that this is really not the kind of music I like so much. Even with the added stimulus of trying to discover the emergence of basso continuo and other stylistic developments in the music, I still found the music generally dull.

3 stars (ie. "good").


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## EchoEcho

Moving on to Rome (sorta)....

Frescobaldi: Stylus fantasticus and the Art of Variation








I'm a firm believer that the musical instruments make the music. What I mean is that the properties of the instrument will have a big impact on how it's played.

One look at a keyboard and you can pretty easily anticipate how it's gonna change baroque classical music - a wide open expanse of notes, one right next to the other, all very easily accessed, roughly one per finger for each hand. What can we conclude? The music is gonna get notey. And both the left and right hands are gonna be busy. The showoffs are sure to play increasingly complex and challenging music, discovering lots of new tricks in the process.

It's hard to imagine renaissance polyphony and keyboard music living separate but parallel existences. More likely the inherent properties of both types of music will increasingly interact, creating new hybrids of expression.

Anyway, Frescobaldi was clearly an early participant in the discovery of the potential of keyboard music, freely experimenting in a time when there were few rules. This disc reflects that experimental freedom.

Having said that, a little harpsichord and/or organ music goes a long way with me.

3 stars.


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## Dirge

Speaking of Pluhar … I'm not keen on a lot of her doings, including the aforementioned account of _Vespro della Beate Vergine_, but I find the Teatro d'Amore program to be right up her alley and extremely entertaining-and it doesn't hurt that she has soprano Núria Rial and counter-tenor Philippe Jaroussky at her disposal:






I much prefer this live video to the same team's commercial CD of the same title, both in terms of content and performance. If nothing else, be sure to catch the final encore (starting at ~1:13:30): a really fine account of the great duet from _L'Incoronazione di Poppea_, "Pur ti miro."

Otherwise, here are my favorite recordings of a couple of extremely popular madrigals from-what else?-the Books of Madrigals:

_Il combattimento di tandredi e clorinda_ (from Madrigals, Book VIII) - Testo (Non schivar, non parar):





_Lamento della Ninfa_ (from Madrigals, Book VIII):


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## EchoEcho

Continuing with the (Italian) instrumental exploration:

Kapsperger: Intavolatura
Stefano Maiorana

View attachment 101014


Chitarrone music from 1640-ish. That's the long-necked precursor to the guitar:

View attachment 101015


The music has a quirky but pleasant enough sound. We'll see how I feel about it after listening to it for an hour or so.

3.5 stars.


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## classical yorkist

For me, context is King. I'm always looking to place something within it's contemporary artistic and cultural milieu. To that end I listened to this (I love Melvyn Bragg and In Our Time): http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00fhp85
I must admit I don't actually agree with much presented here but I still found it an interesting listen. The central thesis of the baroque being a Catholic reaction to the Reformation is difficult to square with heavily Protestant flowerings of culture in, say, the Dutch republic and the Germanic states. Also, the programme never really mentions music, I would hardly call the greatest and most famous figure in the baroque, JS Bach, a flowering of Catholic sentiment! Still an interesting listen though.


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## Jacck

Giovanni Gabrieli - Canzonas and Sonatas from Sacrae Symphoniae





Chicago Symphony Orchestra brass plays Gabrieli


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## EchoEcho

One last disc from Early Baroque Rome before moving on...

L'arpa Barberini - Music in Early Baroque Rome
Margret Köll, Roberta Invernizzi









A very lovely disc of harp music from Rome in the 1630s, including both solo works and works with vocal accompaniment. Roberta Invernizzi of course sounds fantastic.

Cardinal Francesco Barberini, nephew of Pope Urban VIII, was a leading patron of musical performers and composers in Rome - including Frescobaldi, Kapsberger, and others - many of whom are represented on this disc.

Lovely music, strongly recommended: 4 Stars


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## EchoEcho

classical yorkist said:


> For me, context is King. I'm always looking to place something within it's contemporary artistic and cultural milieu. To that end I listened to this (I love Melvyn Bragg and In Our Time): http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00fhp85
> I must admit I don't actually agree with much presented here but I still found it an interesting listen. The central thesis of the baroque being a Catholic reaction to the Reformation is difficult to square with heavily Protestant flowerings of culture in, say, the Dutch republic and the Germanic states. Also, the programme never really mentions music, I would hardly call the greatest and most famous figure in the baroque, JS Bach, a flowering of Catholic sentiment! Still an interesting listen though.


I kinda agreed with the woman on the program who said that Baroque is just a label. It's hard to come up with one definition for "Baroque" which applies to different arts in different countries at different times.


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## EchoEcho

Back to Venice...

Castello: Sonate Concertate 1629
Musica Fiata, Roland Wilson










It seems that the free expressiveness of sung monody, as well as advances in virtuosic playing of the various instruments is influencing the structure of instrumental ensemble music. This music to my (untrained) ears sounds "typically baroque".

This is a full break from complex polyphonic chant. A new set of musical norms is emerging which it seems will dominate for the next hundred years or more (eg. trio sonata, etc). Some of these works you could probably convert into string quartets.

However, it also seems like there are few established rules or forms for this new type of music - this seems like fairly free-wheeling stuff. I guess the (boring) formalism would come later.

Wait... here it is from the booklet:

_In Castello's revolutionary sonatas instrumental music as a separate entity from vocal music has come to maturity. His concepts are so consummate that they remained the basic model for the next fifty years and more...._

Interesting stuff.

(But just 3 stars for listenability, sorry)


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## Taggart

classical yorkist said:


> For me, context is King. I'm always looking to place something within it's contemporary artistic and cultural milieu. To that end I listened to this (I love Melvyn Bragg and In Our Time): http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00fhp85
> I must admit I don't actually agree with much presented here but I still found it an interesting listen. The central thesis of the baroque being a Catholic reaction to the Reformation is difficult to square with heavily Protestant flowerings of culture in, say, the Dutch republic and the Germanic states. Also, the programme never really mentions music, I would hardly call the greatest and most famous figure in the baroque, JS Bach, a flowering of Catholic sentiment! Still an interesting listen though.


There's a broad arc through Sweelinck, Buxtehude and Bach encompassing the Dutch republic and protestant North Germany. But where does it go? Bach wrote great music but his children moved away to get access to a broader style of music. His own contrapunctal style fell out of favour. Much of the Baroque is dominated by France, Italy and south Germany - all the catholic areas. England had very little of note other than Handel - who had studied in Italy - and the London Bach. Scotland had even less until he middle of the 18th century when people brought back influences from Mannheim. All the developments in new music cane from the catholic areas. Some of it was to do with church music but much of it was simply large courts wishing to show off. So the catholic nature possibly had very little to do with it. But it makes an interesting point nonetheless.


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## EchoEcho

Continuing my traversal - and trying to finish up 17th century (first half?) Italian baroque before switching to other countries.

Let's check in with Monteverdi in 1638, almost three decades after his Vespers of 1610 (see above):

Monteverdi: Madrigali guerrieri e amorosi
Concerto Italiano, Rinaldo Alessandrini









This is a largish collection of works in various forms: polyphony, monody, even mini-operas. Probably a few others. Monteverdi has been busy.

Interesting stuff, but not the kind of music that makes this listener's pulse race. Plus it's three hours long. Good background music I suppose.

Rating: 2 stars (ie. pretty good)


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## JeffD

Taplow said:


> I am constantly amazed by how much more there is to discover in the baroque that is still relatively unknown. Astounded also that therein lies beauty largely untapped by major labels and performers. Thank you for this thread. I've already learned one new name I never heard before (Reincken) and have added some recordings of his works to my wishlist. I look forward to discovering more.
> 
> ...
> 
> Please keep this thread going with new suggestions and discoveries.


I could not have said this any better. What a wonderful thread. I am late to the party, but this is such a worthy project I am excited to get started.


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## Guest

Hope you don't mind my being here and deciding to keep within the shadows as I attempt to learn as much as I can from reading the collective posts of the thread... I'm afraid that at this point I can do little other than reveal what I've been listening to and thoroughly enjoying... I lack the knowledge and expertise to provide insightful analysis but I hope that my listening and reading will eventually allow me to contribute something of value...

I've been comparing and contrasting the following three versions of Biber's Rosary Sonatas -

Reinhard Goebel & Musica Antiqua Köln -









Rachel Podger -









Andrew Manze & Richard Egarr -









I find something different and unique and exhilarating in each of the three versions but most importantly of all (to me at least) is the sense of finding "mindfulness" as I contemplate each "Mystery" and how each of the three artists have chosen to express the emotions within each sonata... It allows me to "centre" myself and to calm the roiling waters within my mind...

Just a brief personal note: I'm 22 and attempting to stage a comeback in my professional hockey career after needing 18 months to recuperate from a concussion... and that's all that needs to said about that...

But as I get ready for each day's workout and practices I find myself awakening at 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning as the anticipation of the day's events clashes with the anxiety and doubt which are inseparable partners in attempting to do something that you haven't done for a long time and are not entirely certain that you can do...

I found that all I need to do is just sit there... pick any one of the three versions... and I can reduce the 1000 endlessly circling thoughts into a somewhat manageable 100 or so...  I think that I have a tendency to brood and I find that taking these moments to "centre" myself are invaluable and that I would not be able to persevere without taking that time to just stop and listen...

On a last note which is both related and unrelated to the above but which you may find of interest is that the game of hockey when played well has a particular "tempo" and my role as a defenseman places me in a position in which I can control the tempo of the game... speeding it up or slowing it down as necessary...

I use "allegro" as the tempo for the game and usually find myself counting off the pace to Bach's Brandenburg Concerto No. 5 in D... That particular movement plays almost continuously within my head and if the pace of the game is too fast I hold on to the puck and try to bring the game back down to "allegro"... same thing if the pace is too slow... if the cadence is off...then I need to pick up the pace by either skating the puck out of my zone or by initiating a series of faster passes to regain the "allegro" tempo...

That will be the last of my hockey analogies - promise!... But that will be me standing in the back within the shadows...

Within the other threads, I'm known as either "Nudge and a Wink" or #77... on this thread I would prefer to be just plain "Dee" and leave those other two characters standing outside the thread while I'm inside...Thanks!

Best wishes to one and all!


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## EchoEcho

Hi Dee - 

Interesting stuff. Wish I knew of a hockey cantata or something I could recommend. Maybe someone should write one?! Hope your recovery and comeback is allegro!

I have the Andrew Manze Biber above. I wonder how it compares to the others, if you feel like sharing your impressions.


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## EchoEcho

Whew, that last disc really took the wind out of my sails! No way I can listen to another "challenging" disc now. I better play a disc I like much more:

Cavalli: Heroines of the Venetian Baroque
Mariana Flores, Cappella Mediterranea, Clematis Ensemble, Leonardo García Alarcón









Venice opened its first public opera house in 1637. Towards the end of the 17th century, Venice became the opera capital of the world as another ten opera houses had opened (per wikipedia).

Taruskin, in his Oxford History of Western Music, makes a point that these public operas were quite a bit more vulgar, and less panegyric (that is, obsequiously flattering to their sponsors) that the earlier court-sponsored operas, such as Monteverdi's Orfeo. Popular music had arrived.

Cavalli was primarily a composer of these public operas. But, for what it's worth, I hear no signs of vulgarity in the music itself. Maybe some crassness is evident in the libretto, but I haven't checked. To me it just sounds beautiful.

Rating: 4 stars - very good.


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## Guest

Thank you for the warm welcome and kind words - they mean the world to me!

I'll try my best but I'm certain that the two of us will never be confused for one another... My compliments on some of the most superbly written and insightful analysis that I've ever encountered... I can only look on with undisguised envy but I reserve the right to copy and paste some of your best material without attribution and place them in threads that you never visit in which I can safely claim them as *my* "superbly written and insightful analyses" - :lol:

Sonata VI: The Agony in the Garden is the mystery that I can most identify with personally in the sense of extending the definition of "Agony" to apply to anxiety... and that is the sonata that most resonates with me...

My personal favourite of the three would be the version recorded by Reinhard Goebel & Musica Antiqua Köln. I think that he more than the other two was able to convey the quite distinct spiritual meaning and significance within each of the mysteries i.e. their "religiosity" with unparalleled musical virtuosity... I find his performance to be the most musical and lyrical of the three recordings...

The Andrew Manze & Richard Egarr version was my first introduction to the work and it will always be a favourite as it came along at a point in my life when I absolutely _needed_ to hear that recording more than anything else... I've purchased everything that Manze (and Egarr) has recorded and always will do so but while the recording itself is as musical and lyrical as the MAK version there now seems to be something missing in the sense that Manze may not have tapped into the inherent spirituality of the sonatas...

Rachel Podger is another artist that I have a tremendous amount of respect for and yet while I invariably enjoy everything that she has recorded I find (for reasons known to no one including myself!) that I inevitably place her second or third when doing comparisons of this nature... I reckon that I can only say that despite her prodigious talent and evident scholarship there just seems to be something which prevents her from reaching that first tier that I would place Goebel and Manze upon...

I hope that this will be considered a good first start and that further posts will improve rather than decline!

Best wishes to one and all!

Dee


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## EchoEcho

Thanks for the kind words Dee, but if you stick around here you'll see that there are others here who know tons more than me. They're kinda quiet at the moment, but when they get chatty, you'll see what I mean!


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## EchoEcho

Next up:

Carissimi: Oratorios
Les Voix Baroques; Alexander Weimann










Per wikipedia, Carissimi was a pioneer of oratorios, as well as a prolific composer of motets and cantatas.

But what do these words mean? The terminology is confusing because the same words have different meanings at different times. But from what I can figure out, in 17th century Italy, the meanings were basically as follows:

• a motet is a religious madrigal, usually sung in Latin

• a cantata is a longer and more elaborate madrigal (or motet)

• an oratorio is an unstaged opera, generally on a religious theme

From which I conclude that religious music during the period was absorbing the innovations in secular music, arising particularly from Venice and Florence.

Rating: 3 stars


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## EchoEcho

Finally, what tour of Italy would be complete without a short stop in Siena?

Della Ciaia: Lamentationi
Roberta Invernizzi, Laboratorio '600










These are motets (etc) written specifically for Sienese nuns! Lovely music.

Galileo's brother (yes, that one) is also one of the composers on this disc.

Rating: 4 stars


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## classical yorkist

Taggart said:


> There's a broad arc through Sweelinck, Buxtehude and Bach encompassing the Dutch republic and protestant North Germany. But where does it go? Bach wrote great music but his children moved away to get access to a broader style of music. His own contrapunctal style fell out of favour. Much of the Baroque is dominated by France, Italy and south Germany - all the catholic areas. England had very little of note other than Handel - who had studied in Italy - and the London Bach. Scotland had even less until he middle of the 18th century when people brought back influences from Mannheim. All the developments in new music cane from the catholic areas. Some of it was to do with church music but much of it was simply large courts wishing to show off. So the catholic nature possibly had very little to do with it. But it makes an interesting point nonetheless.


I don't necessarily disagree with that, rather, it highlights the ridiculousness of labelling everything from 1600-1750 as baroque. That label, when one thinks about it, is totally lacking in nuance and, in fact, doesn't help at all. I suppose he fact it's a later 19th century labelling that causes the problem, we know so much more about the period from1600-1750 now. Unlike Impressionism, which is a contemporary name for a movement whether the main movers liked it or not, the use of baroque may well fit for the outburst of florid Catholic art in the post Reformation period it fails to help us with those areas we have both highlighted but which often are what the general public would think of when thinking of the baroque (if they think about it at all). However, I could also be argued that the Catholic art movement of the 1600's had more to do with conspicuous consumption and showing off to your neighbours than it did to actually glorifyng God in any way.


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## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> I don't necessarily disagree with that, rather, it highlights the ridiculousness of labelling everything from 1600-1750 as baroque. That label, when one thinks about it, is totally lacking in nuance and, in fact, doesn't help at all. I suppose he fact it's a later 19th century labelling that causes the problem, we know so much more about the period from1600-1750 now. Unlike Impressionism, which is a contemporary name for a movement whether the main movers liked it or not, the use of baroque may well fit for the outburst of florid Catholic art in the post Reformation period it fails to help us with those areas we have both highlighted but which often are what the general public would think of when thinking of the baroque (if they think about it at all). However, *it could also be argued that the Catholic art movement of the 1600's had more to do with conspicuous consumption and showing off to your neighbours than it did to actually glorifyng God in any way.*


I must demur a little, as to the italicised sentence - *it could also be argued that the Catholic art movement of the 1600's had more to do with conspicuous consumption and showing off to your neighbours than it did to actually glorifyng God in any way.
*
It could be - but I think it would be an unduly sweeping judgement, since there was plenty of 'counter-reformation' fervour around at that date too.

All types of art sometimes have to do with 'conspicuous consumption' rather than with more worthy motives. So also commissioned music - and maybe a composer's main motives might be to do with self-aggrandisement rather than artistic expression. I go by the results, as it elicits a response in me, rather than worrying about motivation.

But I do agree that 'baroque', because of its link with florid Catholic art of the era (I'm not a fan) is not a very helpful label. :tiphat: 
It's not even very helpful when I consider something like French Baroque, which emanates from a Catholic country, but to my ears is rather simpler in style compared with other baroque music.

And joining in the discussion of versions of Biber's Rosary Sonatas, I haven't listened to the Rachel Podger, but I have to the other versions mentioned. I like them all, but the version I love best is Riccardo Minasi & Bizarrie Armoniche - whatever their motivation, I find a great spirituality and emotion in their expression, and an especial fitting of the style to the individual mysteries.

_Edit, in the light of the post below: note 'I find' - it's just a personal response & I do also appreciate the other versions that I've heard. _

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thanks to everyone posting on this thread. :tiphat:
I am still taking a bit of a leave of absence from TC, because I still feel upset and lacking in energy owing to Mum's death, but I am very much enjoying and appreciating reading the posts on the main & community boards.


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## Guest

Ingélou said:


> And joining in the discussion of versions of Biber's Rosary Sonatas, I haven't listened to the Rachel Podger, but I have to the other versions mentioned. I like them all, but the version I love best is Riccardo Minasi & Bizarrie Armoniche - whatever their motivation, I find a great spirituality and emotion in their expression, and an especial fitting of the style to the individual mysteries.


Just wanted to post a snippet of a review which appeared in Allmusic and was wondering how valid you thought the review was...

"Here is something unusual among the growing number of recordings of Heinrich von Biber's Rosary Sonatas; in Arts two-disc SACD set featuring violinist Riccardo Minasi and Bizzarrie Armoniche, Biber's set of 15 Sonatas realized with a full, Italian style continuo and Italian violin ornamentation. The accepted standard, for decades, was continuo realization with organ alone, and eventually the notion of a cello or theorbo joining the band gained acceptance. The group of eight instruments that supplies the continuo here -- not necessarily all at once -- may seem like overkill to those who are attracted to the austere, ascetic trappings associated with this piece. In addition, that the whole continuo plays all the way through is not necessarily the rule; both continuo and soloist conspicuously hold back in the "Jesus in the Temple" sonata. Arts' recording is well defined and clearly stated, if a little lacking in bass response and, as is often the case in such a long work, the quality of the performance is a little variable. Minasi's interpretation of the rhythm in the scourging sonata may sound a little stilted, but his handling of the fast, virtuosic passages in "The Carrying of the Cross" is very well done and, at times, breathtaking. Sometimes the richness of the continuo takes Biber's music into areas where one wonders it should go; "The Assumption of the Virgin" almost sounds like James Oswald's eighteenth century projections of Scottish folk music. In the booklet, in tiny print rather difficult to read without a magnifying glass, is a stimulating discussion of the Rosary Sonatas from an exegetical and numerological perspective and its possible connection to the music of Johann Sebastian Bach. The overall impression made by this recording, however, is a sense of connection to the music of Vivaldi, an idea that is, in itself, fascinating."

Based on your recommendation I will indeed add this recording to my collection and hope that you will accept the kind wishes that I send your way in these trying days...

Dee...


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## Ingélou

Nudge and a Wink said:


> Just wanted to post a snippet of a review which appeared in Allmusic and was wondering how valid you thought the review was...
> 
> "Here is something unusual among the growing number of recordings of Heinrich von Biber's Rosary Sonatas; in Arts two-disc SACD set featuring violinist Riccardo Minasi and Bizzarrie Armoniche, Biber's set of 15 Sonatas realized with a full, Italian style continuo and Italian violin ornamentation. The accepted standard, for decades, was continuo realization with organ alone, and eventually the notion of a cello or theorbo joining the band gained acceptance. The group of eight instruments that supplies the continuo here -- not necessarily all at once -- may seem like overkill to those who are attracted to the austere, ascetic trappings associated with this piece. In addition, that the whole continuo plays all the way through is not necessarily the rule; both continuo and soloist conspicuously hold back in the "Jesus in the Temple" sonata. Arts' recording is well defined and clearly stated, if a little lacking in bass response and, as is often the case in such a long work, the quality of the performance is a little variable. Minasi's interpretation of the rhythm in the scourging sonata may sound a little stilted, but his handling of the fast, virtuosic passages in "The Carrying of the Cross" is very well done and, at times, breathtaking. Sometimes the richness of the continuo takes Biber's music into areas where one wonders it should go; "The Assumption of the Virgin" almost sounds like James Oswald's eighteenth century projections of Scottish folk music. In the booklet, in tiny print rather difficult to read without a magnifying glass, is a stimulating discussion of the Rosary Sonatas from an exegetical and numerological perspective and its possible connection to the music of Johann Sebastian Bach. The overall impression made by this recording, however, is a sense of connection to the music of Vivaldi, an idea that is, in itself, fascinating."
> 
> Based on your recommendation I will indeed add this recording to my collection and hope that you will accept the kind wishes that I send your way in these trying days...
> 
> Dee...


Please don't ever add anything to your collection based on my recommendation!

I listened to it (YT, I think) before buying, and you should too - particularly as the review suggests that it is a very idiosyncratic interpretation which may not be historically accurate.

As to the review - very interesting, particularly the comment on James Oswald, as I'm a passionate lover of Scottish baroque/ folk. Thanks for posting it. 
However, I don't know enough about the subject to comment on its 'validity'.

This thread is called 'For love of the baroque' not 'For knowledge of the baroque'!


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## JeffD

Nudge and a Wink said:


> and I can reduce the 1000 endlessly circling thoughts into a somewhat manageable 100 or so...  I think that I have a tendency to brood and I find that taking these moments to "centre" myself are invaluable and that I would not be able to persevere without taking that time to just stop and listen...


I am going to have to listen to those. Wow. I have done something similar going to work in the morning. My job is real stressful, and listening to classical kind of helped me gain perspective. I am going to get back to that.



> I use "allegro" as the tempo for the game and usually find myself counting off the pace to Bach's Brandenburg Concerto No. 5 in D... !


Someday when you are world famous and everyone knows you, we will have this juicy tidbit to pass around.


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## Guest

JeffD said:


> I am going to have to listen to those. Wow. I have done something similar going to work in the morning. My job is real stressful, and listening to classical kind of helped me gain perspective. I am going to get back to that.
> 
> Someday when you are world famous and everyone knows you, we will have this juicy tidbit to pass around.


Thank you for the kind words - they greatly hearten me in these stressful yet exhilarating circumstances - I feel fortunate to find myself with such amiable companions to have along for our journeys!

As always, best wishes to all!

Dee


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## Guest

Ingélou said:


> This thread is called 'For love of the baroque' not 'For knowledge of the baroque'!


I was actually going to write an apology to you, Taggart, Dirge, Classical Yorkist, and the others on the thread for inadvertently neglecting to mention the significant contributions that you've collectively made to this thread when I was complimenting EchoEcho - each of you have produced a significant body of work replete with insightful analysis that is superbly well-written and my oversight was completely unintentional...

I started at the end of the thread and worked back a page or so before deciding to add my post... I'm glad that I did so because now after reading the entire thread from start to finish I have to admit that I would have been far too intimidated to even consider posting...

I felt as if I had wandered into a "Master Class" of Baroque music and one that I was woefully unprepared for... Seriously, I'm not exactly brimming with confidence that I will I ever acquire the kind of expertise needed to be considered a "peer" of anyone within this thread but I'm willing to be a respectful pupil ....

I'm not entirely certain that I even possess the credentials needed to enroll into the "Master Class"... You may have to think of me as someone who has slipped into the room by the side door when no one was looking and has decided to hide out in the cloakroom in the back of the room where I am quietly eavesdropping and writing notes... I may occasionally ask a "muffled" question ("muffled" because I am in fact hiding inside the cloakroom in the back of the room after all) or seek a recommendation but I'll need to acquire far more confidence before being able to participate fully...

But I look forward to exploring a fascinating subject with amiable companions and thank you all for your kind and gracious welcome!

Next on the agenda is to join up with the Monteverdi travelers, Volumes I, II, and III of Jean-Marie Leclair's Violin Concertos with Simon Standage and Collegium Musicum 90, and perhaps a compare/contrast of Albinoni 12 Concertos op. 9 with Christopher Hogwood and the Academy of Ancient Music (with Andrew Manze) paired with the version recorded by Collegium Musicum 90 (with Standage)...

I will always read whatever is written but my schedule is such that my posting may be somewhat erratic...

As always, best wishes to all and thank you for the advice and guidance...

Dee...

p.s. you may see a similarly worded statement with complimentary apology in the "Opera" forum as I have also managed to get in entirely over my head there too! 

p.p.s. - Dirge please tell me that your avatar is not a current photo of yourself... If it is I shall sink into the "slough of despond"...

"'This miry Slough is such a place as cannot be mended; it is the descent whither the scum and filth that attends conviction for sin doth continually run, and therefore is it called the Slough of Despond: for still as the sinner is awakened about his lost condition, there ariseth in his soul many fears, and doubts, and discouraging apprehensions, which all of them get together, and settle in this place; and this is the reason of the badness of this ground." - _John Bunyan - The Pilgrim's Progress_


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## classical yorkist

Ha, you may think you're not upto it Nudge and a Wink but I only started listening to baroque, and indeed classical, less than a year ago. Enthusiasm counts for a lot in here and as long as you love the music and tell us what you get out of it that's great. People have different interests when it comes to music appreciation, some react wholly emotionally to it, some approach it from a technical, musicological experience and some, like me, approach it from a historical cultural perspective (I love to contextualise). No approach is right or wrong, they just 'are', so don't be afraid to contribute whatever, as long as it's related to the 'baroque' of course.


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## Guest

Have been sent to Regina in Saskatchewan which will serve as home base as I rotate amongst teams in Regina, Moose Jaw, Prince Albert, Saskatoon, and Swift Current... How glamourous the life-style of us hockey stars, eh? :lol:

Rotating amongst 5 teams to accelerate the comeback necessitates my saying farewell as time constraints will be prohibitive...and I really do need to re-learn how to focus for my own self-preservation!

Let me leave you with my favourite Baroque piece -






I'm going to have this song play at the end of my wedding... assuming she accepts this weekend when she joins me in beautiful Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan so wish me luck, eh?

Best wishes to one and all!

Dee...


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## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> Ha, you may think you're not upto it Nudge and a Wink but I only started listening to baroque, and indeed classical, less than a year ago. Enthusiasm counts for a lot in here and as long as you love the music and tell us what you get out of it that's great. People have different interests when it comes to music appreciation, some react wholly emotionally to it, some approach it from a technical, musicological experience and some, like me, approach it from a historical cultural perspective (I love to contextualise). *No approach is right or wrong, they just 'are', so don't be afraid to contribute whatever, as long as it's related to the 'baroque' of course.*


Splendid post. Hear hear! :tiphat:

I have found another version of Muffat's Concerti Grossi:





I am still listening to it, and thinking 'More Lullian than Lully!' and I now want to buy a cd of his works.

I don't know if anyone has any recommendations regarding Muffat? If so, I'd be very pleased to hear them, as I am not a very discriminating listener.

I like the idea of 'historically informed performance' because I love 'putting myself back into history' when I'm listening, but in all truth I'm not sure whether my ears, metaphorically speaking, can tell Stork from Butter.


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## EchoEcho

Turning now to Spanish Baroque....

First, some historical context (I'm informing myself as I write this, by the way). The Spanish Golden Age lasted from about 1492 until about 1659, during which time the Iberian peninsula was largely controlled by the Hapsburg Dynasty, closely aligned with the Catholic Church. Although the region prospered as a result of influx of gold and silver from the colonies, this prosperity was tempered by various economic problems as well as the redirection of resources to fight Hapsburg quarrels in other parts of Europe. Nevertheless, there was a flourishing of the arts - in literature, philosophy, architecture, painting, and music.

Spanish Baroque music seems closely tied to (and derivative of ??) Italian baroque music. Two of the early big names were Alonso Lobo and Tomás Luis de Victoria, both on this album:

Victoria: Requiem 1605; Lobo: Lamentations 1600
Tenebrae









This is lovely, unaccompanied polyphonic music, smooth as silk.

Stylistically, this could be classified as late Renaissance. Certainly there is no evidence of the rise of (reversion to?) monody and/or the instrumental advances occurring in Italy.

Rating: 3.5 stars - but higher if you dig this kind of music.


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## EchoEcho

Though music of the court and church was largely dominated by the tastes of the Hapsburgs, Spain also had an active "folk music" scene, vitalized in part by the annual pilgrimages to places like Santiago.

Un camino de Santiago
Arianna Savall, Ensemble La Fenice, Jean Tubery










Very enjoyable: 4 stars


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## EchoEcho

More music that could almost be classified as folk music:

The Guerra Manuscript, Vol. 4
Ars Atlantica, Manuel Vilas / Naxos










The Guerra Manuscript is a compilation of "tonos humanos" - ie. secular songs in the style of monody - compiled in 1680, during the reign of Charles II of Spain. This fourth volume of the Naxos series seemed particularly interesting.

Per wikipedia, Charles II (1661 - 1700) was noted for his extensive physical, intellectual, and emotional disabilities and his consequent ineffectual rule. Charles II was born physically and mentally disabled and infertile. Even worse, these handicaps were mostly likely the result of regular inbreeding amongst the Hapsburg rulers in Spain!

Quoting now:
_The years of Charles' reign were difficult for Spain. The economy was stagnant, there was hunger in the land, and the power of the monarchy over the various Spanish provinces was extremely weak. Spain's finances were perpetually in crisis.[7] Charles' unfitness for rule meant he was often ignored, and power during his reign became the subject of court intrigues and foreign influence, particularly French and Austrian._

Charles II died childless and was the last Hapsburg to reign in Spain. Kinda sad.

Anyway, this is very good music! 4 stars


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## EchoEcho

One more album in a similar vein before moving on:

Sanz: Instruccion de Musica Sobre la Guitarra Espanola
Hopkinson Smith










Gaspar Sanz wrote three volumes of pedagogical works for the baroque guitar that form an important part of today's classical guitar repertory and have informed modern scholars in the techniques of baroque guitar playing (wikipedia).

These songs are from the first of these three, published in 1674.

Rating: 3.5 stars.


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## EchoEcho

Turning now to France...

I don't have (or know of) much Baroque music from France in the first half of the 17th century. For better or worse I start my exploration here:

Concert royal de la Nuit
Ensemble Correspondances, Sébastien Daucé










This is a reconstruction of sorts of a large performance in 1653, the Ballet Royal de la Nuit, which took 13 hours to complete, and which included the participation of 14-year-old Louis XIV. Apparently, in this event young Louis danced the role of the Sun, thereby earning the sobriquet "The Sun King", which obviously stuck with him.

This is my first time listening to this work, so I may need some time to form my impressions....

Later:

I'll need to finish listening tomorrow, but a couple of comments...

We have seen (indeed we started with) unaccompanied polyphony; we have seen the rising popularity of simple guy-with-a-guitar music (eg. monody); we have seen how this vocal style was incorporated into opera as arias; we have seen the emergence of new instruments, particularly keyboard instruments, and the rise of virtuoso playing techniques; finally we have seen how all of these secular developments have fed back into sacred music, giving rise to for example oratorio and sacred cantatas.

Anyway, all that kinda makes sense just looking at Italian (and Spanish) early Baroque. With this album though we encounter another thread: courtly dance music. Not the later waltzy stuff, but more like slow-motion square dancing. That kind of dance music plays a big role on this album.

Maybe I would have picked up this musical thread earlier if I had examined other countries first - e.g. Masques from England. I don't know. But I certainly didn't hear much dance music in the Italian or Spanish music selections I played.

Interesting.

Anyway, this Concert Royal seems heavily reconstructed. I can't figure out really why chunks of Rossi and Cavalli are included, even after reading the booklet. Also I can't figure out how they can condense 13 hours into 2.5 hours and still claim it's substantially complete. But maybe I was skimming the booklet.

It's still good, but I'll dock it a half point for its length: 2.5 stars.


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## Ingélou

^^^^^

Thanks for your posts, EchoEcho - I'm particularly interested in the last, as I'm a big fan of Jean-Baptiste Lully. I googled Concert Royal de la Nuit and found this French documentary about the making of the albums. I was in despair as my schoolgirl French wasn't up to it, but then a helpful comment alerted me to the fact that there were English subtitles that I could switch on using the first icon to the right below the screen. 






PS - We just watched it, and got some answers to the questions you asked. Only the top melodies of the ballet survived, so bass and other parts were added; the entertainment included lots of poetry, plays within plays and so on, so it would have taken a lot longer than just the musical parts; there were also lots of musical interludes, which haven't survived, and as Mazarin commissioned the Concert Royal de la Nuit, and he was known to have had Rossi and Cavalli staged, excerpts on related mythological themes were included to try and reconstruct what the concert would have seemed like to the original viewers, i.e. the impressions and atmosphere rather than the precise ingredients, which have been lost.


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## EchoEcho

Next stop: Jean Baptiste Lully !!

Lully: Ballet Music for the Sun King
Aradia Baroque Ensemble, Kevin Mallon










My recollection is that Lully was granted some kind of monopoly on court music, and dominated the field for decades, keeping other composers sidelined. Not sure though, and today no time for reading booklets and/or wikipedia, so I will remain in the dark.

Please direct all questions to Ingelou! :devil:

Musically, we can compare this music with earlier Italian baroque as follows: comparable levels of instrumentation, also incorporation of the emotional expressiveness in the singing. But comparatively speaking this music is a bit reserved - no showing off here, by either the singers or the players. Also, occasional inclusion of dance music (ie early ballet), as well as some martial passages and effects. The music overall has a stately, refined feel.


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## Ingélou

*^^^^ 'Please direct all questions to Ingelou!'* :devil:

Ha ha, joke, she said politely - I haven't listened to nearly enough music, even by my favourite. :lol:

However, in case my personal response is of any interest to anyone, I did make an extra effort a couple of years ago and made this extensive post on the group I started, Baroque Exchange:
http://www.talkclassical.com/groups/baroque-exchange-d268-baroque-chat-2-may.html

The composer guestbook includes some more information:
Jean-Baptiste Lully

You are right that he was a greedy blighter and claimed a monopoly even on other people's music. In fact, he was a flawed individual in very many ways. But I still love his music - I think mainly because his love of dance has simplified his melodies and strengthened his rhythms, and I have always loved dance myself.

Because dancing is *important!* 
http://spenserians.cath.vt.edu/TextRecord.php?textsid=32843

*Dauncing (bright Lady) then began to be,
When the first seeds whereof the world did spring
The Fire, Ayre, Earth, and water did agree,
By Love's perswasion, Nature's mighty King,
To leave their first disordred combating;
And in a daunce such measure to observe,
As all the world their motion should preserve.*


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## Zlatorog

I stumbled upon this thread the other night and have been enjoying it so much. One of my favorite baroque composers hasn't been mentioned yet (unless I missed it): Johann Heinrich Schmelzer. Here are a few links if anyone is unfamiliar. Thank you everybody.


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## EchoEcho

Next up:

Dumont: O mysterium
Ensemble Correspondances and Sébastien Daucé (the people behind the Concert Royal above).










Henri Dumont (1610 - 1684; i.e. a generation earlier than Lully) was a Dutch composer who moved to Paris. These motets (ie. madrigals on religious themes) are from the 1680s, when Dumont held posts in the Royal Chapel.

Lovely, interesting music: 3.5 stars.


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## Dirge

Nudge and a Wink said:


> p.p.s. - Dirge please tell me that your avatar is not a current photo of yourself... If it is I shall sink into the "slough of despond"...


That photo is from my second-or was it my third?-arrest in Vanity Fair, so it's not even a current mug shot of myself.


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## EchoEcho

One last disc before I take a break...

Charpentier: Te Deum, etc
Le Parlement de Musique, Martin Gester










Reissued on Naive:









Lully was the King's composer, Du Mont was the Queen's composer, and Charpentier was the Dauphin's composer. I kid you not.

Under Louis XIV, for many posts, there were four appointees, who would serve in rotation for three months at a time each year. Eventually the better composers (etc) would keep the post for the whole year. A kind of meritocracy I suppose.

Lively, large scale motets. 3 stars.

=>=>

Au revoir for now. When I come back, I'll try to finish 17th century baroque, by surveying English and German baroque music (neither of which I know much about), as well as finishing the second half of Italian baroque.

It's been an interesting and informative exercise. I hope others have gotten something out of it as well.


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## Ingélou

EchoEcho said:


> One last disc before I take a break...
> Au revoir for now. When I come back, I'll try to finish 17th century baroque, by surveying English and German baroque music (neither of which I know much about), as well as finishing the second half of Italian baroque.
> 
> It's been an interesting and informative exercise. *I hope others have gotten something out of it as well.*


Certainly have! Thank you so much for posting, EchoEcho. :tiphat:

Enjoy your break - and haste ye back!


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## josquindesprez

More Zelenka! The Missa Omnium Sanctorum is a splendid work, highly recommended to Baroque fans. Zelenka has a wonderful way of blending the light and airy with the foreboding (not sure if those are the best possible terms, but you probably get what I'm getting at if you've heard him), and I'm not sure who else at this time had that skill.


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## classical yorkist

I've been listening to nothing but baroque cantatas for a couple of weeks now, just dozens of them, and they are amazing. In fact I may well suggest they are the ultimate baroque form. So they have mostly been Bach, Telemann, Buxtehude. Also been throwing in some Passions, mostly from Telemann.


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## classical yorkist

I've listened to Bach's Missa in G Minor twice now and it really is very good. I always feel immensely intimidated by Bach's large scale vocal works like the Passions or the B Minor Mass but this small scale Missa is really fabulous, full of incident and emotion. I really recommend listening to it if you haven't.


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## Jacck

Zelenka: Ouverture a 7 concertanti in F


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## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> I've listened to Bach's Missa in G Minor twice now and it really is very good. I always feel immensely intimidated by Bach's large scale vocal works like the Passions or the B Minor Mass but this small scale Missa is really fabulous, full of incident and emotion. I really recommend listening to it if you haven't.


Thanks for the suggestion. :tiphat:
I'm listening now for the first time (on YouTube) and I agree - it's a little jewel.


----------



## Ingélou

I've been neglecting this thread, and hope to get back to my Wiki 'listening project' soon.

Meanwhile, thank you for all :tiphat: who have posted about their own baroque loves and discoveries, and please carry on! 

Here's a lovely piece of Scottish baroque that I'm listening to now; lyrical solace.


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## classical yorkist

Oh my, this is just breathtaking.


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## Taplow

classical yorkist said:


> In fact I may well suggest they are the ultimate baroque form.


I would posit that the concerto grosso is perhaps the ultimate baroque form. It was invented, perfected, and arguably even died in this era. Was there any great baroque composer who did not write concerti grossi? And my vote for the master of the form goes to Johann David Heinichen.


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## Heliogabo

Just discovered the music by Pietro Degli Antoni.
His phantasticus style sonatas are quite engaging.


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## Ingélou

*So - you finally managed to watch the John Eliot Gardiner production of Monteverdi's Orfeo?*






*That's right - it was recommended by a TC-er. I've been scrolling wildly through this thread but I can't seem to find out who. But anyway, I'm very grateful!* :tiphat:

*So - what took you so long?*

*I had some personal issues - my mother died in December - but mostly it was because I was afraid I'd be bored. But I enjoyed myself - not least with the languages. Sung in Italian - subtitled in French - and I kept my eye on the Wiki summary of the plot in English. Intellectually satisfying! *
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L'Orfeo

*What was your first response as you listened?*

*I found the music haunting - lyrical - occasionally a little monotonous in its use of vocal trills and frills. This is semi-staged but the acting is superb - with huge benefits from the close-up cameras. The dancing in Act One is only suggested - it would be lovely to see those dances properly staged. *

*You sound a little underwhelmed.*

*I was just thinking that the whole story is a bit static and not dramatic enough when the news of Eurydice's death is brought in - the emotional impact shown in the acting and the music is very powerful. By the way, I loved the close-ups of the orchestra too - getting lots of tips on the use of the baroque bow, if only I could use them!*

*Any more highlights?*

*Orpheus's song hailing Charon, with its blend of lyrics and instrumental accompaniment, is strikingly beautiful. Trumpets! A wonderful harp solo. Charon's refusal - a bass voice - has a big impact.
*
*Would you care to emote a little more?*

*Proserpina's prayer to Pluto is lovely and beautifully sung. The moment of Orfeo's doubt and looking back - the fate pronounced - Eurydice's sadness as she contemplates her chance of life lost - all dramatic and moving. Orfeo's anguish is palpable, full of discords - then the fanfare of brass and chorus announcing that Orfeo vanquished the Underworld only to be vanquished by his own love - it's so solemn & beautiful.
*
*What about the ending?*

*Act 5 - Orfeo's heartrending song of realisation is so moving, sung on a dark stage. The exquisite song with Echo was stunning - was this the start of this vogue? The appearance of Apollo and the song-conversation between them is very touching and reflective about life. The final joyous dancing and singing gives a wonderful ending to a wonderful production and a beautiful opera. *

*So you've finished your listening to Monteverdi. What's your overall response to his music, and will you be buying any new cds?*

*I've finished for the moment, working my way through the Wiki list. I didn't think much of him at first - I found his music a bit too subtle and rarefied for me. But after listening to a lovely version of the Vespers and watching this opera, I've been won over by his sheer lyrical beauty. 
However, space is limited and I also don't want to swell our collection to the point that I never listen to anything enough to know it really well. So, probably no cds.
*
*What about a live performance of Monteverdi's music?*

*That's a different matter! I'd love to hear his works performed or to watch one of his operas.*


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## Ingélou

After Monteverdi, the next port of call on the Wiki list is *Gregorio Allegri*.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Baroque_composers

I'll be editing this post after breakfast, but if anyone reading has any suggestions about where to start with this composer - thank you very much! :tiphat:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm back - and I don't believe it! There doesn't seem to be a composer guestbook on Allegri. 
Please tell me it's just me who can't see for looking.

Here's Wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorio_Allegri

Here's the version of his Miserere by the Tallis Scholars (YouTube) recommended by Marinera below.
Thank you. :tiphat:





I know this well as it's often played on the radio, but that doesn't stop me thinking again, as I listen, that its beauty is celestial. :angel:

There seems to be nothing except the Miserere easily available, so - um - this part of my listening project has been a cinch! 
Still, if it leads to a composer guestbook on Allegri - or to its being more easily found - it will be a good result.

So it's down the list to *Girolami Frescobaldi*, I suppose...


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## Marinera

Ingélou said:


> After Monteverdi, the next port of call on the Wiki list is Gregorio Allegri.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Baroque_composers
> 
> I'll be editing this post after breakfast, but if anyone reading has any suggestions about where to start with this composer - thank you very much! :tiphat:


I love Allegri's Miserere. The Tallis Scholars version is beautiful.


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## Taggart

The only other thing on You Tube is






Guest book - Gregorio Allegri 1582 - 1652


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## Ingélou

Taggart said:


> The only other thing on You Tube is
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have to see about a guest book.


:tiphat: Thanks, Spouse - I'll be listening to that tomorrow, then, though I've already selected some Frescobaldi.

Spring is coming - flowers are in bud - and there's lots of lovely Baroque Music, new to me, to sample! 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

PS - Thanks for the Composer Guestbook too! xx
Gregorio Allegri 1582 - 1652


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## Ingélou

We just got another cd - actually a download which we burned onto a disc, since the original is out of print - of Scottish baroque music. Minuets and gavottes alternate with reels and strathspeys, showing how close Folk & Baroque were in eighteenth-century Scotland, the Golden Age of Scottish Fiddle Music.

'Red Rob' Mackintosh was a Scottish composer, violinist, dancing master and violin teacher. His minuets are dainty and graceful - his strathspeys are lithe and lyrical.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Mackintosh

We listened to the cd in the car this morning, to and fro church. The tone of Pete Clark's fiddle is tender and sprightly - fiddle tunes played with a violin, art dance tunes played with a nimble fiddle.

Another case of 'guy can write - guy can play'!
For me - just perfect!


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## tdc

Ingélou said:


> *So - you finally managed to watch the John Eliot Gardiner production of Monteverdi's Orfeo?*
> *That's right - it was recommended by a TC-er. I've been scrolling wildly through this thread but I can't seem to find out who. But anyway, I'm very grateful!* :tiphat:


I think it is because no one recommended Gardiner's Orfeo to my recollection, (his Vespers was recommended multiple times though).

I recommended *Savall's Orfeo*, please just listen to the introductory music in the first few minutes of this video to hear the difference in interpretive styles and see what you think!


----------



## Ingélou

tdc said:


> I think it is because no one recommended Gardiner's Orfeo to my recollection, (his Vespers was recommended multiple times though).
> 
> I recommended *Savall's Orfeo*, please just listen to the introductory music in the first few minutes of this video to hear the difference in interpretive styles and see what you think!


I wonder where it came from, then? I may have seen it recommended on another thread entirely, and confused it in my own mind. Senior moments come thick and fast these days!

But anyway, I enjoyed it. 
I'll try your comparison of styles of the introductory music & will tell you what I think. I do love Jordi Savall so it will be interesting. :tiphat:


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## athrun200

I love Baroque music too, I am so glad that so many people are also listening to Baroque music. Friends around me (most of them plays piano) said Baroque music is boring, no one appreciate Baroque music as I do.

There's so much to explore in Baroque period, yet I only have a pair of eyes and ears.


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## Ingélou

Taggart said:


> The only other thing on You Tube is
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Guest book - Gregorio Allegri 1582 - 1652


I am listening to this now. It is *heavenly*. 
Honestly, I think I've never heard such beautiful singing. 
Allegri turns out to be at least a Two Hit Wonder. :tiphat:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
PS - Thanks to :tiphat:Josquin13 on the composer guestbook, Taggart was able to track down the cd that this comes from, and we've ordered it. 
Something lovely to look forward to on a rainy day by the seaside...


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## EchoEcho

I continue to be interested in this idea of trying to create representative playlists for a particular area and era of music – trying to capture the major highlights in sacred, courtly, public, and chamber music developments in a given country over a given period. I find it a good way to try to get my head around what was happening.

I find the 1600s to be a particularly interesting century. It seems to represent a transition from the rather dull (for me) traditions of voice-only sacred polyphonic chant, to a period of much greater musical variety, instrumental virtuosity, and emotional expressiveness. The century also sets the stage for the "giants" of the early 1700s – Bach, Vivaldi, Telemann, Handel, et al. – and the subsequent rise of classicism. The birth of the modern, if you will. 

I started trying to create such playlists above, with an attempt to traverse early baroque in Italy (first half of 1600s), France, and Spain. In what follows, I will try to hit some highlights of early English baroque music through a selection of ten albums.

A confession: I already listened to these over the past few days and curated the overall list as best I could. So I'm not making it up as I go along, discovering things as I go. But hopefully, I will be able to capture at least some of my spontaneous reactions in the notes for each album.

17th Century English Baroque.... Here we go....


----------



## EchoEcho

First stop:
Stile Antico The Phoenix Rising









a capella religious music from the 1500s and early 1600s
targeted at recusant Catholics
famous names represented
Tallis, Byrd, Gibbons, Taverner, White
in some ways traditional polyphony
but the voices seem more natural and independent than say Victoria's polished pieces
good music, but not for repeat listening
rating: 2.5 stars (ie good but...)

------
To me this disc is pretty representative of pre-Baroque music. At least insofar as it has been transmitted to us. I strongly suspect that there was a much broader and more diverse base of musical traditions, most of which were lost because they weren't transcribed for posterity. With that caveat, we will focus on what we have.


----------



## EchoEcho

Second disc:
Dowland: The Second Booke of Ayres - The Schoole of Night










a little Dowland goes a long way with me
a little too affected and monotonous for extended listening
still, an interesting example of guy-with-a-guitar music
with more angst than Morrissey
ironically in real life he was said to be a cheerful person
interesting stuff but I think not really representative of the period - sui generis ?
but note the echoes in Dido and Aeneas below
rating: 2.5 stars

-----
If this music appeared in Italy, it might have been labeled "monody". To me it is a pretty natural and timeless form of music-making. Dowland's particular form of unrelenting angst is distinctive but probably not unique. He reminds me Chris Isaac more than Morrissey (for those of you who are up on their 90s alternative music references).

I was a bit blown away to hear that same style of concentrated angst used almost a century later by Purcell in Dido's arias though!


----------



## EchoEcho

This next one is a bit of a shocker:
The Cries of London, Paul Hillier, Theatre of Voices and Fretwork










really surprising stuff
you gotta hear it to believe it
and even then you won't believe it is authentic
for that you have to read the liner notes
at first the strongest reaction may well be shock
but some tracks really seem to display great beauty
though other tracks seem a little pedestrian
something everyone should hear at least once !!
rating: 4 stars

-----
Let me just reiterate - this is essential listening!

It also gives us a glimpse of the broad base of music which existed amongst the general public at the time. Here we have a musical expression of the lively London street scene, contemporaneous with Shakespeare and his Globe Theatre.


----------



## Ingélou

EchoEcho said:


> This next one is a bit of a shocker:
> The Cries of London, Paul Hillier, Theatre of Voices and Fretwork
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> really surprising stuff
> you gotta hear it to believe it
> and even then you won't believe it is authentic
> for that you have to read the liner notes
> at first the strongest reaction may well be shock
> but some tracks really seem to display great beauty
> though other tracks seem a little pedestrian
> something everyone should hear at least once !!
> rating: 4 stars
> 
> -----
> Let me just reiterate - this is essential listening!
> 
> It also gives us a glimpse of the broad base of music which existed amongst the general public at the time. Here we have a musical expression of the lively London street scene, contemporaneous with Shakespeare and his Globe Theatre.


Lovely to see you posting again here, EchoEcho. :tiphat:

Are these the Orlando Gibbons 'cries'?

A link here gives the lyrics. 
http://www.orlandogibbons.com/the-cries-of-london/
Some of them might well surprise those who are not well-versed in the preoccupations of Shakespearean comedy. But I've been there, done that & got the teeshirt! 

Last year John & I went to a music school at Abbotsford where we had a concert among ourselves, and one gifted teenage boy performed an excerpt from the Cries with a Dutch young woman also attending the school - (not the ruder cries! ) - and it was very well done (both had fab voices) and enjoyable.

Thanks for reminding me.

Looking forward to Disc Number Four...


----------



## Taggart

Interesting that Gibbons uses an "In Nomine" for the cries with the theme in the viol parts except when the voice carries the melody. So the music may not be as popular as one might think.


----------



## Jacck

J. Desprez - Missa de Beata Virgine




this is probably pre-Baroque, but I like it


----------



## EchoEcho

Ingélou said:


> Are these the Orlando Gibbons 'cries'?


Tracks 1, 2, 4, and 6 seem to be proper "cries" -- one each from Gibbons, Cobbold, Weelkes, and Dering, respectively. Track 13 is listed as a "country cry", by Dering.

Occassionally bawdy, but also interesting from a historical perspective - it's nice to know what you could buy on the streets in London 400 years ago.

Tracks 8, 9, and 10 are essentially folk songs, from Michael East (8&9) and Ravenscroft (10).

Tracks 3, 5, and 7 are purely instrumental -- from Gibbons (3&7) and Dering (5).


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## Jacck

Taggart, you found only 2 works by Allegri on youtube? I found one more in addition to Miserere and Misa Vidi Turbam Magnam
Gregorio Allegri: "Opere Inedite dai Manoscritti della Collectio Altaemps"


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## EchoEcho

Taggart said:


> Interesting that Gibbons uses an "In Nomine" for the cries with the theme in the viol parts except when the voice carries the melody. So the music may not be as popular as one might think.


I don't think I could recognize an "In Nomine" yet. Maybe some day....


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## Ingélou

EchoEcho said:


> I don't think I could recognize an "In Nomine" yet. Maybe some day....


Better than me. I probably wouldn't recognise an In Nomine if it jumped up and bit me! 

(Shades of my early married life, when my dear husband kept me up till after midnight to tell me about 'The Mass of the Catechumens'! ... and I've forgotten...)


----------



## Mandryka

EchoEcho said:


> This next one is a bit of a shocker:
> The Cries of London, Paul Hillier, Theatre of Voices and Fretwork
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> really surprising stuff
> you gotta hear it to believe it
> and even then you won't believe it is authentic
> for that you have to read the liner notes
> at first the strongest reaction may well be shock
> but some tracks really seem to display great beauty
> though other tracks seem a little pedestrian
> something everyone should hear at least once !!
> rating: 4 stars
> 
> -----
> Let me just reiterate - this is essential listening!
> 
> It also gives us a glimpse of the broad base of music which existed amongst the general public at the time. Here we have a musical expression of the lively London street scene, contemporaneous with Shakespeare and his Globe Theatre.


This is exactly how I feel about it.

I think with Gibbons we're pretty far from the baroque, by the way.


----------



## Taggart

Jacck said:


> Taggart, you found only 2 works by Allegri on youtube? I found one more in addition to Miserere and Misa Vidi Turbam Magnam
> Gregorio Allegri: "Opere Inedite dai Manoscritti della Collectio Altaemps"


Nice! Shame about the weird movie in the background. The CD it's from is

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Allegri-In...0&keywords=Musica+Flexanima+Ensemble,+Bigotti

:tiphat:


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## Ingélou

tdc said:


> I think it is because no one recommended Gardiner's Orfeo to my recollection, (his Vespers was recommended multiple times though).
> 
> I recommended *Savall's Orfeo*, please just listen to the introductory music in the first few minutes of this video to hear the difference in interpretive styles and see what you think!


i have just done that - compared the openings of the Savall Orfeo with the Gardiner.

Link for the the Gardiner:





The Gardiner starts with a banging drum; after that the playing is smoother and more wistful. Sinuous.

The Savall opening - the drum & fanfare are more stately; thereafter the playing is more bracing and energetic. Sinewy.

I am going to watch the Savall Orfeo in its entirety. From the start it seems to be bigger, bolder, and in brighter colours.

As to which I prefer - well, at this point, probably the Gardiner, because I am a melancholy creature at the best of times. The darker atmosphere of the Gardiner moved me more (as I see it so far) and led me to reflect on mortality.

But it could be that with the Savall the tragic side of the story will come as a greater contrast and ultimately be more effective. 
And of course, visually it is stunning, and it's great to see the dances properly performed.

They are both fab productions, and I am sure I will love the Savall Orfeo and after seeing the whole production & comparing it, there will hardly be a feather to put between them as far as my personal response is concerned.

Warning: yes, with me, it's all personal response. 
I came to music too late to be able to build up any technical expertise.

I am presuming you prefer the Savall, tdc, and would be interested to hear your comparison, and the opinions of anybody else who has watched both productions. :tiphat:


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## EchoEcho

Continuing my traversal of English Baroque:

4) The City Musick - The Topping Tooters of the Town









music of the London Waits (1580-1650)
can't expect too much here - this is mostly horn music, no singing
good but a little dull
rating: 3 stars

---------
I chose this album to continue the argument that early English Baroque music was closely connected with London street life.

From the booklet:

_Central to the musical life of the city were the 'Waits', a professional band of musicians who were employees of the civic authorities and were thus expected to play for all civic and ceremonial occasions. The London waits, 'The City Musick', were considered some of the best in the land, rivalled only perhaps by those of Norwich. These musicians were primarily players of wind instruments, the shawm, curtal (dulcian), cornett and sackbut, and were a common sight and sound in civic procession and in the halls and churches of the wards of London in the 16th and 17th centuries. Their official livery and high quality playing provided a visual and aural emblem of the City....

As well as their civic duties, waits often found employment in other aspects of city entertainment. The popular theatres that had sprung up in and around the city in the latter 1500s could provide regular employment....
_


----------



## EchoEcho

5) Theatre of the Ayre - The Masque of Moments










really good stuff !!!
masques obviously central to the musical culture
and by all indication an outrageously good time
yet unfortunately most of the music is lost
judged not terribly sophisticated by later musicologists ??
rating: 4.5 stars

-----
This album is another essential listening album and has my highest recommendation.

Not only is the music itself good, but I think it reflects a pretty important part of 17th century English music scene, most of which has apparently been lost.

A masque is like an opera, except that audience members can participate in the various dances and other parts. From wiki: "the English queen Anne of Denmark frequently danced with her ladies in masques between 1603 and 1611, and Henry VIII and Charles I of England performed in the masques at their courts." And, as we saw above, Louis XIV was a regular participant in French masques.

Perhaps not surprisingly, masques were also often associated with heavy drinking. Again from wiki: "the entertainment went forward, and most of the presenters went backward, or fell down, wine did so occupy their upper chambers". As far as we can ascertain the details of the masque, the Queen of Sheba was to bring gifts to the King, representing Solomon, and was to be followed by the spirits of Faith, Hope, Charity, Victory and Peace. Unfortunately, as Harington gleefully reported, the actress playing the Queen tripped over the steps of the throne, sending her gifts flying; Hope and Faith were too drunk to speak a word, while Peace, annoyed at finding her way to the throne blocked, made good use of her symbolic olive branches to slap anyone who was in her way."

I for one would love to attend a masque!


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## EchoEcho

Turning now to chamber music...

6) Lawes: Consorts to the Organ
Phantasm










consort music was a major form in the 16th and 17th centuries
Taruskin notes that Jacobean consort music was, in effect, the earliest instrumental chamber music
the music itself is certainly pleasant, even if not the last word in sophistication
certainly very recognizable polyphonic structure
not unlike string quartets
rating: 3.5 stars

------
Pleasant stuff. I think anyone who likes string quartets would like this very much.


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## EchoEcho

7) Locke: The Broken Consort Part I, Tripla concordia










bright and cheery music
though somewhat inconsequential
rating: 3.5 stars

-----
Another fine album of instrumental music.

By the way, some terminology. A consort was a group of musicians with various instruments, but all from a single family. For example, all string instruments. In contrast, a broken consort was a group of musicians with instruments from different familiies -- e.g. strings and woodwinds.

So I suppose a string quartet could be called a consort, while a piano quartet would be a broken consort.

Taking a step back, I think it's fair to say that before the late 17th century, England was not (yet) very involved with the emergence of opera, and was not particularly a locus of instrumental innovations, and didn't host a lot of church-sponsored or state-sponsored musical extravaganzas (except maybe those masques, most of which have been lost).

However, with regard to chamber music, English baroque was every bit as advanced as music elsewhere.

Moreover, I would argue (have argued) that English baroque music was in some ways unique and even superior to the extent that it catered to the emerging merchant/working/middle classes.

So that's where we stand, with just three more albums to go....


----------



## tdc

Ingélou said:


> Warning: yes, with me, it's all personal response.
> I came to music too late to be able to build up any technical expertise.
> 
> I am presuming you prefer the Savall, tdc, and would be interested to hear your comparison, and the opinions of anybody else who has watched both productions. :tiphat:


I think it is just personal response for me too Ingelou. Both are fine conductors often in cases like this I think it is a matter of what version one hears first, and they then 'imprint' on that version. Frankly for me that Savall opening is one of the best things I have heard in all of music, I just love it. But on reflection I agree it creates more of a contrast with the mood of the rest of the production, whether this is more or less in line with Monteverdi's intentions I am not sure. I think your thoughts on the matter are as valid as mine, thanks for sharing.


----------



## Mandryka

EchoEcho said:


> Turning now to chamber music...
> 
> 6) Lawes: Consorts to the Organ
> Phantasm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> consort music was a major form in the 16th and 17th centuries
> Taruskin notes that Jacobean consort music was, in effect, the earliest instrumental chamber music
> the music itself is certainly pleasant, even if not the last word in sophistication
> certainly very recognizable polyphonic structure
> not unlike string quartets
> rating: 3.5 stars
> 
> ------
> Pleasant stuff. I think anyone who likes string quartets would like this very much.


I've had a lot of difficulty with Lawes, everyone seems to say that he was amazing etc but to me most performances of the music make it sound pretty tame stuff. There are one or two exceptions, but not many, and I've never much managed to enjoy that recording from Phantasm. I much prefer the recordings by Concordia/ Mark Levy -- the one called Knock'd on Head. There's some interesting solo stuff from Jonathan Dunford too, and an old fashioned but very enjoyable thing by The Elizabethan Consort. Philip Pierlot recorded a Lawes recording which is not bad . . .


----------



## Mandryka

EchoEcho said:


> 7) Locke: The Broken Consort Part I, Tripla concordia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bright and cheery music
> though somewhat inconsequential
> rating: 3.5 stars
> 
> -----
> Another fine album of instrumental music.
> 
> By the way, some terminology. A consort was a group of musicians with various instruments, but all from a single family. For example, all string instruments. In contrast, a broken consort was a group of musicians with instruments from different familiies -- e.g. strings and woodwinds.
> 
> So I suppose a string quartet could be called a consort, while a piano quartet would be a broken consort.
> 
> Taking a step back, I think it's fair to say that before the late 17th century, England was not (yet) very involved with the emergence of opera, and was not particularly a locus of instrumental innovations, and didn't host a lot of church-sponsored or state-sponsored musical extravaganzas (except maybe those masques, most of which have been lost).
> 
> However, with regard to chamber music, English baroque was every bit as advanced as music elsewhere.
> 
> Moreover, I would argue (have argued) that English baroque music was in some ways unique and even superior to the extent that it catered to the emerging merchant/working/middle classes.
> 
> So that's where we stand, with just three more albums to go....


I have enjoyed Locke's music more than Lawes's I think. There are some tremendous fantazias which S and W Kuijken and Kohnen play on an old Accent recording, almost as "psychological" as Thomas Hume, and a wonderful refined and poised old recording dedicated to his music from Ensemble de Violes Orlando Gibbons. Savall's recordings is also exceptionally fine.

There's also a really charming CD of his keyboard music by Terence Charlston, well recorded and a few rather fine instruments.


----------



## Ingélou

I don't know a great deal about William Lawes, but I do like him - I suppose I'm probably a little influenced by the poignant nature of his death, casually shot by a parliamentarian after a battle in which the king had kept him far from the front in an effort to keep him safe.

Some of his viol music on YouTube has bored me a little, but I can be like that with viols. (I like short flights on the viol, or viols with other types of instruments, not the quiet musing stuff that goes on for hours...)

However, we have this cd of William Lawes, and it's an absolute cracker. I'd give it five stars on the EchoEcho system!


----------



## Ingélou

Thanks for your posts, EchoEcho, which make very interesting reading, though I don't always agree with your generalising points about English baroque music. 
(I don't see it as music for the working classes or particularly connected with London street life, for example. More middle class than on the continent perhaps. But while some English baroque composers came from a waits background, the choir schools and theatres had a bigger part to play, and musicians were also retained by the gentry and aristocracy.) 

But you've certainly found some fab-looking cds which I hope to follow up. 

I look forward to hearing about cd number 8! :tiphat:


----------



## EchoEcho

Ingélou said:


> I don't see it as music for the working classes or particularly connected with London street life, for example. More middle class than on the continent perhaps. But while some English baroque composers came from a waits background, the choir schools and theatres had a bigger part to play, and musicians were also retained by the gentry and aristocracy.


You could well be right. In fact you probably are right. I'm just making it up as I go along. Throwing out generalizations, in hopes of being corrected when I miss the mark.

So thanks! 

Do you have any composer or disc in mind which captures the more aristocratic and/or sacred traditions in early English baroque?


----------



## Ingélou

I do like what I've heard of Locke's music, especially The Tempest, which our local ensemble Norwich Baroque has played, and which was made the basis of baroque classes at the Historically Informed Summer School that I attended in 2016. My baroque bow came in useful, and I blessed the lessons in baroque music that Fiddle Guru had given me, as I struggled through my second violin part. 






Locke was one musician who came up through a choir school and his name was recently discovered carved on the fabric of Exeter Cathedral.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Locke_(composer)

He was rather nice looking too.


----------



## EchoEcho

Ingélou said:


> I'd give it five stars on the EchoEcho system!


Just to let you know, a five star rating on the EchoEcho system means you'd be willing to buy copies of the disc for all your friends. :devil:


----------



## Ingélou

EchoEcho said:


> Just to let you know, a five star rating on the EchoEcho system means you'd be willing to buy copies of the disc for all your friends. :devil:


I retract - I retract!!!


----------



## Ingélou

EchoEcho said:


> You could well be right. In fact you probably are right. I'm just making it up as I go along. Throwing out generalizations, in hopes of being corrected when I miss the mark.
> 
> So thanks!
> 
> Do you have any composer or disc in mind which captures the more aristocratic and/or sacred traditions in early English baroque?


No discs - more in the way of particular composers whose musical training was shaped by the church - Henry Lawes, William Lawes, Matthew Locke, Henry Purcell, John Blow, William Boyce and so on. They often wrote secular music too or in the case of Purcell provided music for theatre and operas. But without the chapel royal or the cathedral choir schools they wouldn't have been able to develop.


----------



## Mandryka

Ingélou said:


> I don't know a great deal about William Lawes, but I do like him - I suppose I'm probably a little influenced by the poignant nature of his death, casually shot by a parliamentarian after a battle in which the king had kept him far from the front in an effort to keep him safe.
> 
> Some of his viol music on YouTube has bored me a little, but I can be like that with viols. (I like short flights on the viol, or viols with other types of instruments, not the quiet musing stuff that goes on for hours...)
> 
> However, we have this cd of William Lawes, and it's an absolute cracker. I'd give it five stars on the EchoEcho system!


Yes, I've played one or two things in that and it seems fine, I've not explored it in any depth.


----------



## Mandryka

Re the origins of this period of English music, François Jubert-Caillet makes this striking point in the booklet for his Gibbons CD (L'Acheron)



> We should not forget that Gibbons was not only a brilliant composer for keyboards but was also a church musician; religious feeling at that time could well be linked to a certain fanaticism in England at the beginning of the 17th century, as the new Anglican religion had introduced a new and visionary current and a certain revolutionary exaltation that is echoed in the music of the time. Neither is mysticism lacking in these sacred works, as they describe the architecture of heaven in an innovatory manner: music at that time was still considered to be a cosmic and an astral art, and music for the consort of viols was often seen as having an element of spirituality.


I think we often underestimate how, even in this relatively late period, allegorical thinking was widespread, and the spiritual was ubiquitous. Metaphorical representations of the divine were perceived everywhere. . .

I think this type of thinking was very entrenched, and was present much later on, as far as the late baroque, in Bach for example


----------



## Ingélou

Mandryka said:


> Re the origins of this period of English music, François Jubert-Caillet makes this striking point in the booklet for his Gibbons CD (L'Acheron)
> 
> I think we often underestimate how, even in this relatively late period, allegorical thinking was widespread, and the spiritual was ubiquitous. Metaphorical representations of the divine were perceived everywhere. . .
> 
> I think this type of thinking was very entrenched, and was present much later on, as far as the late baroque, in Bach for example


Yes - the idea of 'the cosmic dance' is still there in literature too, e.g. Sir John Davies, Orchestra - A Poem of Dancing, as well as in music; it lurks behind Rebel's Les Elements.


----------



## EchoEcho

Disc 8:

Blow: Symphony Anthems
Choir of New College Oxford, St. James Baroque










musically, much like the preceding works
the choral part(s) just different lines in the tangle
doesn't work that well, in my opinion (but I'm not a huge fan of choral music)
rating: 3 stars

---------
Here, finally, is some expression of overt religiosity on this traversal.

I still think that -- and I'm fully prepared to be wrong -- and I'm not even sure other people would argue otherwise -- relative to other areas, English 17th century baroque was mostly relatively secular. Certainly compared to the Italian and French baroque scenes. Maybe extended religious wars tend to make people a little reticent about expressing their religiosity. Certainly Shakespeare contributed to the secular tradition.

What I found most interesting about this disc was how similar structurally the compositions were to the previous discs. Almost as if you could just write a fantasia for a string consort and organ, then replace a couple of "voices" in the string consort with choral parts, and you'd get an anthem!


----------



## EchoEcho

9) Purcell: Dido & Aeneas










what can I say? this is good stuff
probably great stuff for people that like this sort of thing
rating: 3.5 stars

----------
It is interesting to listen to this opera as an expression of various traditions in English baroque music.


----------



## EchoEcho

And finally...

10) Handel at Vauxhall (volumes 1 & 2)










Also:









Since most of this music is coming from the 1740s, this is cheating a bit, but no more than including the Stile Antico disc at the beginning. Think of the two selections as bookends.

And I'm not the only one cheating! You really have to get both discs -- each under an hour long -- to experience a full recreation of a typical Vauxhall program circa 1748. This should have been a single double-disc release.

But oh my gosh is it worth it....

These discs represent a typical night at the Vauxhall Gardens at the time. The Vauhall Gardens were a private park / concert venue / restaurant / alehouse. They charged high prices to ensure a fairly select clientele. And they hosted regular music programs designed to please their guests. Although Handel was involved -- there was even a statue of him there -- the main impressario was Jonathan Tyers.

A night of music at Vauxhall was popular classical music in the best sense of the term. There was even time between numbers to get up and walk around, fetch beers, socialize, etc. Another musical scene I'd love to experience personally.

The program on these albums consists of a combination of instrumental works and vocal performances, mostly of arias from Handel's operas. While most of the music is Handel's, there are also works from John Hebden, William Boyce, Thomas Arne, and others. Popular songs, such as an early version of "God Save the Queen" also are included.

Rating: 4.5 stars

------

Recently my opinion of Handel has been rocketing up. It seems to me that once you get past the chestnuts, Handel made a lot of really good music!

Handel, born just inches and days away from Bach in Germany, did a lot more with his life much faster than Bach. While Bach was still struggling to find work near his home town, Handel had already zipped down to Italy and made a name for himself. He returned to Germany and was quickly employed by the richest margrave around -- George Louis of Hanover. This while Bach was struggling to find even a second-tier position.

Then, in 1714, the English elected George Louis to be their new king. King George mostly stayed in Hanover and never learned English, but he did send Handel over to London. There, far away from his boss, Handel was able to do pretty much whatever he wanted. And apparently he did quite a lot! Handel was the first composer in history who became fabulously rich from his compositions and performances.

------

That's it for England -- warts and all. My next challenge is to get my head around the much more nebulous music scene in Germany and Central Europe in the 1600s. That will take me a few weeks (if I succeed at all).


----------



## Ingélou

EchoEcho said:


> Disc 8:
> 
> Blow: Symphony Anthems
> Choir of New College Oxford, St. James Baroque
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> musically, much like the preceding works
> the choral part(s) just different lines in the tangle
> doesn't work that well, in my opinion (but I'm not a huge fan of choral music)
> rating: 3 stars
> 
> ---------
> Here, finally, is some expression of overt religiosity on this traversal.
> 
> I still think that -- and I'm fully prepared to be wrong -- and I'm not even sure other people would argue otherwise -- relative to other areas, English 17th century baroque was mostly relatively secular. Certainly compared to the Italian and French baroque scenes. Maybe extended religious wars tend to make people a little reticent about expressing their religiosity. Certainly Shakespeare contributed to the secular tradition.
> 
> What I found most interesting about this disc was how similar structurally the compositions were to the previous discs. Almost as if you could just write a fantasia for a string consort and organ, then replace a couple of "voices" in the string consort with choral parts, and you'd get an anthem!


'Extended religious wars' doesn't really apply to the situation in England, though there were certainly religious difficulties and persecution.

Renaissance religious music - see Byrd & Tallis.

Baroque religious music - well, Handel was German but his oratorios were written and performed in England.And I'm glad to have an excuse to post this lovely sacred music by Purcell:






Part of the trouble is that - as the presenter on this video says - religious music of the seventeenth century is not as widely known as it might be. I confess I'd never heard of Adrian Batten, but I found this video interesting:






It has pointed me in the direction of further listening to English sacred music in the 17th century, of which, there appears, there was no shortage. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

PS I am puzzled by your saying that you're cheating with music of the 1740s. Wiki puts the dates of Baroque Music as 1600-1750, but the early 1600s are really 'early baroque' and in fact the music of that era often sounds more 'renaissance' than anything, and the baroque style hung on a bit after 1750.

As many posters pointed out at the beginning of this thread, labels are not all that helpful, and labels based on dates even less so.

It's been interesting to read of your personal response, though, and to compare it with my own. I would give Dido & Aeneas 5 stars. I too prefer Handel to Bach, but I can understand why most people place Bach higher - I think he has greater power than Handel, but really it's all a matter of taste, isn't it? 
Nobody can 'prove' anything when it comes to music, but I still love to read what people think.


----------



## Taggart

EchoEcho said:


> I still think that -- and I'm fully prepared to be wrong -- and I'm not even sure other people would argue otherwise -- relative to other areas, English 17th century baroque was mostly relatively secular. Certainly compared to the Italian and French baroque scenes. Maybe extended religious wars tend to make people a little reticent about expressing their religiosity. Certainly Shakespeare contributed to the secular tradition.


Much continental religious music was written for Catholic services. Other material, e.g. Sweelinck, tends to be psalm settings as this was more consonant with reformed principles. Before the Civil War, we have Gibbons






We also have Byrd, in a more Catholic style






After 1660 we have Purcell, for example this from his Evensong Service






or his settings of Cranmer's Sentences for the funeral of Queen Mary






after that we have Handel's Chandos Anthems (roughly 1720) or his music for the Coronation of George II in 1727 including Zadok the Priest






Lots of really good religious music, you just have to know where to find it.


----------



## EchoEcho

Ingélou said:


> I am puzzled by your saying that you're cheating with music of the 1740s. Wiki puts the dates of Baroque Music as 1600-1750, but the early 1600s are really 'early baroque' and in fact the music of that era often sounds more 'renaissance' than anything, and the baroque style hung on a bit after 1750.


Sorry for the confusion. I was trying to target the 17th century -- up until 1699. I was cheating in the sense that the last disc was quite a bit past my self-imposed end point.



Taggart said:


> Lots of really good religious music, you just have to know where to find it.


Fair enough. I wasn't really looking very hard, so I didn't find much. Still, in Italy or France during the 17th century, it's a lot harder to miss all those Motets, Oratorios, Sacred Cantatas, etc, etc. England seems to me to be a bit light on sacred music from 1600 to 1699, but only relative to other major centers of music at the time. Maybe that clarifies my point.

Ta ta for now! I've gotta start reading up about 17th century German baroque....

:tiphat:


----------



## Ingélou

Regarding Anglican church music in the 'baroque' centuries, 1600-1750, these links are useful:

http://www.katapi.org.uk/13cChMusic/13cCM1a.htm

http://www.katapi.org.uk/13cChMusic/13cCM2.htm


----------



## Johnnie Burgess

Just got the complete works of Bach: The Complete Works of Johann Sebastian Bach - Bachakademie 10th Anniversary Special Collection.


----------



## Ingélou

Johnnie Burgess said:


> Just got the complete works of Bach: The Complete Works of Johann Sebastian Bach - Bachakademie 10th Anniversary Special Collection.


How fabulous is that! Wishing you many hours of sublime enjoyment. :tiphat:


----------



## Gallus

Mandryka said:


> Re the origins of this period of English music, François Jubert-Caillet makes this striking point in the booklet for his Gibbons CD (L'Acheron)
> 
> I think we often underestimate how, even in this relatively late period, allegorical thinking was widespread, and the spiritual was ubiquitous. Metaphorical representations of the divine were perceived everywhere. . .
> 
> I think this type of thinking was very entrenched, and was present much later on, as far as the late baroque, in Bach for example


I would rather make a distinction here between the early and late baroque periods: I don't doubt that description of Gibbons, but there was a significant break in European thinking at the middle of the 17th century with the end of the Thirty Years War in Germany, the Wars of Religion in France and the civil wars in England, leading to an exhaustion of the kind of religious "fanaticism" that in the first half of the 17th century plunged Europe into general war. When I listen to, e.g., Purcell, who is from the second half of that century, perhaps this is my modern bias but I don't feel much which is "mystic" or "fanatical": indeed, anything which smelled of such Puritainism would have been considered highly inappropriate to the tastes of Restoration England. Likewise Handel in his oratios presents a more classical than Christian world. And Bach's religion, to me at least, is that of a divinely-ordered rational universe, rather than than the mystic experience of say a Palestrina mass (not baroque I know). But YMMV.


----------



## Mandryka

It's allegorical thinking that I attributed to late baroque people, not mystical thinking. The numerology in Bach for example . . .


----------



## Ingélou

The Allegri cd that we ordered has arrived, but so far we haven't had time to listen to it together - that relies on the car cd player, and at the moment Norfolk is *All Snowed Up*. 

So I'm moving on with my personal listening project, the names on the Wiki Baroque Composer list - and next up is... 
*Frescobaldi*.

Here's the composer guestbook - Girolamo Frescobaldi - in which I discovered just now that Frescobaldi was very influential but is still too little known, and also - maybe as a result of this lack of knowledge - that a hoax composition of his was passed off successfully by a twentieth century musician.

Some of the videos in the guestbook have gone dead, but I will listen to the others.

At present I'm listening to this one on YouTube - 




Scott Ross, Frescobaldi Toccatas & Dances.

It's pretty, and pleasantly twangly, but it doesn't grab me all that much. 
If all I can find are acres of glittery harpsichord, I shall probably get only one more stopping-off point to add to my mind map of baroque music; and will maybe never break my journey at Frescobaldi Village ever again.

But maybe there is something with a Wow Factor lurking there on YouTube for me.

I hope so, and that someone can point me in the right direction. :tiphat:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

PS - this, from the guestbook, was short and sweet. 




(Vocal music - Se l'aura spira )

I love this. Songs are my bag.


----------



## Marinera

I like Frescobaldi quite a lot, but like with everything you have to be in the right mood to listen to his music. My favourites are Pierre Hantai, Rinaldo Alessandrini and Yoann Moulin Frescobaldi recordings.


----------



## Ingélou

Marinera said:


> I like Frescobaldi quite a lot, but like with everything you have to be in the right mood to listen to his music. My favourites are Pierre Hantai, Rinaldo Alessandrini and Yoann Moulin Frescobaldi recordings.


Thank you, Marinera - :tiphat:
When one's not really 'au fait' , it's good to have some names to look up, and there are quite a few Frescobaldi videos with these performers on YouTube. 
I'll give them a whirl! 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
VVVVV - Thank you, I think I shall - I am listening to one now, and it's lively & lovely. 
~~~~~~~~~~~


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## Mandryka

Maybe you'll enjoy the canzone da sonare more than the keyboard music.


----------



## Gallus

What do people recommend as the best introductory recording to Froberger? I like this piece performed by Staier:


----------



## Guest

Please explain to me how to embed U-Tube clips onto the board. I've tried everything!!


----------



## chesapeake bay

its the second to last button on the right that looks like a piece of film tooltip is "insert video". just push that button and paste in a youtube link


----------



## Richard8655

William Boyce. His symphonies are worth listening if you like Baroque.


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## EchoEcho

Gallus said:


> What do people recommend as the best introductory recording to Froberger?


I just got this Froburger disc/download a couple of days ago:

Froberger: Ou l'Intranquillité
by Blandine Verlet
on Astree / Naive









Supposedly, this is Froberger played a bit like Chopin. Even still, Froberger does nothing for me. YMMV.

PS - I'm curious to see what else people recommend.


----------



## EchoEcho

Ok - ten discs spanning German baroque in the 17th century. Not an easy task.

The term "German baroque" is somewhat amorphous -- decentralized geography; cultural schisms; various foreign influences (Italian, French, and English), etc. Then we have the usual divides which makes it difficult to define a representative sample of the music -- sacred versus secular, small-scale versus large-scale, a cappella versus instrumental versus combined vocals and instrumental. Plus the general trends in baroque music -- new instruments, increasing virtuosity, emotional expressiveness, etc. To say nothing of the emergence of specific forms -- overtures, suites, trio sonatas, etc, etc.

This traversal will not deal with all these issues adequately. Instead, this traversal will be biased toward the types of music that I personally like. So... very little organ or harpsichord music (see previous post), not too much religious music, not a lot of monotonous chamber music, etc. Instead, I will try to identify discs which offer a variety of music, preferably with lovely singing.

Having said all that, this first disc certainly seems like a proper way to start the traversal...

1) Luther and the Music of the Reformation
Bart Jacobs, Vox Luminus, Lionel Meunier / Ricercar










I start out with a double album (2.5 hours) of Lutheran church music. The album includes music from twenty composers, with songs written probably between 1524 and 1684 -- though 80% of them are from the 17th century. Most tracks are sung by a small chorus, backed up by an organ. A few tracks are solo works for organ.

This is not particularly happy music. Instead it is rather austere, fatalistic even. With just occasional good cheer peeking out from time to time.

Some people might love to wallow in this kind of music; but not me. This album was a little tough going for me. I hope the next nine albums aren't this difficult -- wink, wink.

Rating: 2.5 stars (ie. good but...)

// By the way, the 9th track -- Lass mich dein sein und bleiben by Delphin Strungk -- contains the tune which JS Bach borrowed for his St. Matthew's Passion, and which Paul Simon borrowed for, I think, American Tune.


----------



## EchoEcho

Well that was... bracing.

Is all 17th century German baroque music so serious? Happily, not. Next up....

2) Schein: Musica boscareccia - 1621
United Continuo Ensemble / Pan Classics










These "woodland songs" are straight-up secular folk music, written in a "madrigally" style, with music and lyrics by Mr. Schein, the recently self-appointed "General Director of Music" in Leipzig. These songs were hugely popular for decades. Listen and you'll see why.

Bright, sunny music, with nice lyrics as well.

Rating: 3.5 stars (ie. good to very good)


----------



## EchoEcho

Next up (and last one tonight)...

3) Scheidt: Ludi musici
L'Achéron / Ricercar










These works are secular instrumental music, also from 1621, reflecting both Italian and English influences.

Pleasant enough music, but it doesn't really go anywhere or do anything.

Rating: 3 stars (good)


----------



## classical yorkist

EchoEcho said:


> I just got this Froburger disc/download a couple of days ago:
> 
> Froberger: Ou l'Intranquillité
> by Blandine Verlet
> on Astree / Naive
> 
> View attachment 101925
> 
> 
> Supposedly, this is Froberger played a bit like Chopin. Even still, Froberger does nothing for me. YMMV.
> 
> PS - I'm curious to see what else people recommend.


Scroll down to Froberger and enjoy!

http://www.saladelcembalo.org/archivio.php#F


----------



## EchoEcho

Schein, Scheidt, and now Schutz -- the three Ss!

Doubtless lots of good Schutz albums around. I choose this one:

4) Schütz: Weihnachtshistorie; etc 
La Fenice, Jean Tubery / Christophorus










Lovely cover art, though the baby's head is much too small. A baby that size can't touch his fingers together over his head.

Rating: 3 stars.


----------



## Guest

chesapeake bay said:


> its the second to last button on the right that looks like a piece of film tooltip is "insert video". just push that button and paste in a youtube link


I can't find what you're talking about. There's nothing that looks remotely like a piece of film icon in any U-Tube link.


----------



## KenOC

Whenever you post on TC, you type into a special text box. It has icons across the top. That's where the film icon is. Click on it and you'll get a dialog box asking for the YouTube film clip's Internet address (or URL, same thing).

For instance, here's a YouTube URL: 




And now, still typing in the TC textbox, I click on the film icon in the upper right and enter that URL into the dialog box that appears:


----------



## Guest

Thanks so much, Ken, for your help with this. I'll try with one of my special baroque composers!!


----------



## EchoEcho

5) Weckmann: Abendmusiken
Ensemble Les Cyclopes / Zig-Zag










Yet another Lutheran composer, this time based in Hamburg. These works seem to come from the 1657 to 1663 period.

This disc, by the way, has a variety of works by Weckmann - organ solo, harpsichord solo, and sung works with instrumental accompaniment. The variety IMHO makes the listening experience more enjoyable.

Here's a nice review on musicweb-international:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/Nov11/Weckman_abendmusiken_ZZT110502.htm

Rating 3.5 stars


----------



## EchoEcho

6) Rosenmuller: Venezianische Abendmusik 
Johann Rosenmüller Ensemble / Christophorus










Silky smooth songs with instrumental accompaniment. I find this music very relaxing. I particularly like the horn that shows up from time to time in the accompanying ensemble.

Rosenmuller, by the way, had to flee Germany under very awkward personal circumstances, and went to Venice where he seems to have fit right in. He lived and worked in Venice for 20+ years, before returning to Germany near the end of his life.

Rating: 4 stars


----------



## EchoEcho

Here's a cheery disc from Buxtehude:

7) Buxtehude: Cantatas & Sonatas 
Le Concert Brisé, William Dongois / Accent










This is a mix of works with voice (cantatas) and without (sonatas), dating from the 1680s and 1690s. Once again, very sunny music, with lovely instrumentation, including some really nice horns (cornett, sackbut) mixed in.

The dour Lutheranism that began this traversal is almost completely gone. Instead, this is a full flowering of Italianate "stylus fantasticus", which is a free-form compositional style similar to fantasias and the like. By comparison, JS Bach seems like a later reversion to dour Lutherism.

Maybe the performers are taking liberties with the instruments used - my other Buxtehude discs are nowhere near this cheery - but this music sounds terrific!

If all music at the time sounded this nice, I can see why JS Bach was not so appreciated during his lifetime.

Rating: 4 stars


----------



## EchoEcho

So far I have focused on Protestant German music and composers. In the beginning of the century they were actively distancing themselves from Italian (ie. Catholic) traditions, and trying to forge a new musical style. As later selections above suggest, they increasingly allowed Italian styles to influence their music again later in the century.

Next up is the first composer (included in this traversal) from the Catholic southern German areas....

8) Schmelzer: Sacro-Profanus Sonatas
Ensemble Masques, Olivier Fortin / Zig-Zag










Schmeltzer was active in Vienna from about 1640 until his death in 1680, and became a renowned violinist (an Italian instrument). This music - from around 1662 - seems squarely within the Italian chamber music tradition of the time.

Rating: 3.5 stars.


----------



## EchoEcho

9) Biber: Baroque Splendor
Le Concert Des Nations, Jordi Savall / AliaVox










Biber might be the best known composer on this list (so far). I'm not a big fan of the Rosary (aka Mystery) Sonatas or his other Violin Sonatas, but this "big band" music is wonderful! On this album is the famous Missa Salisburgensis à 53 (1682), as well as the Battalia à 10 (1673) and a few other works.

Good stuff!

Rating: 3 stars


----------



## EchoEcho

And finally....

10) Pachelbel: Un orage d'avril
Gli incogniti, Amandine Beyer, Hans Jörg Mammel / Harmonia Mundi










I am concluding this traversal with the most famous "one hit wonder" of 17th century baroque music - Pachelbel's Canon.

The rest of the album is wonderful and shows that the Canon was not so different from his other works. It is mostly instrumental "suites", with a few nice tenor songs thrown in for variety, plus the aforementioned canon and gigue.

Rating: 3.5 stars


----------



## Mowgli

EchoEcho said:


> 9)Biber might be the best known composer on this list (so far). I'm not a big fan of the Rosary (aka Mystery) Sonatas or his other Violin Sonatas...


Not a fan here either. 
Playing CD19 (part 2) from the 100CD DHM "Greatest Recordings" box right now. 
CD18 (part 1) put me to sleep but today I'm full of Folgers so on we go.
I listen through almost every disc I buy unless it's intolerable.
It's nice enough but there's nothing engaging here. It'll be over soon. Ho hum.

https://www.amazon.com/Biber-Rosenkranz-Sonaten-Rosary-Sonatas-Mystery/dp/B00000E6V1


----------



## Ingélou

Mowgli said:


> Not a fan here either.
> Playing CD19 (part 2) from the 100CD DHM "Greatest Recordings" box right now.
> CD18 (part 1) put me to sleep but today I'm full of Folgers so on we go.
> I listen through almost every disc I buy unless it's intolerable.
> It's nice enough but there's nothing engaging here. It'll be over soon. Ho hum.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Biber-Rosenkranz-Sonaten-Rosary-Sonatas-Mystery/dp/B00000E6V1


Oh, ow, ouch! - sorry you feel that way about one of my favourite baroque works!


----------



## Mowgli

Ingélou said:


> Oh, ow, ouch! - sorry you feel that way about one of my favourite baroque works!


I'm glad you like it so don't be sad.
I like Metallica, Black Sabbath, Alice Cooper, Iron Maiden, etc and you probably don't. 
We all like what appeals to us individually and that's what really makes the world go around :tiphat:

Here's my past week of classical spins including some Baroque.
There was also some Beethoven and Haydn involved. #Boxlyfe


----------



## Ingélou

Ingélou said:


> ... I'm moving on with my personal listening project, the names on the Wiki Baroque Composer list - and next up is...
> *Frescobaldi*.
> 
> Here's the composer guestbook - Girolamo Frescobaldi - in which I discovered just now that Frescobaldi was very influential but is still too little known, and also - maybe as a result of this lack of knowledge - that a hoax composition of his was passed off successfully by a twentieth century musician.
> 
> Some of the videos in the guestbook have gone dead, but I will listen to the others.
> 
> At present I'm listening to this one on YouTube -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Scott Ross, Frescobaldi Toccatas & Dances.
> 
> It's pretty, and pleasantly twangly, but it doesn't grab me all that much.
> If all I can find are acres of glittery harpsichord, I shall probably get only one more stopping-off point to add to my mind map of baroque music; and will maybe never break my journey at Frescobaldi Village ever again.
> 
> But maybe there is something with a Wow Factor lurking there on YouTube for me.
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> PS - this, from the guestbook, was short and sweet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Vocal music - Se l'aura spira )
> 
> I love this. Songs are my bag.





Ingélou said:


> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> VVVVV - Thank you, Marinera - I am listening to one now, and it's lively & lovely.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~


I've done my listening to Frescobaldi as part of my OP project of listening to all the composers on the Wiki Baroque Composers List. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Baroque_composers

After the items mentioned in my posts above quoted, I listened to the following -





His 'secular madrigals' - I read that they were 'historically insignificant'. There were some discordant bits I didn't much like, but in general it was lovely and stimulated a meditative mood.





I fiori musicali 1635.
This was stunning - I loved the tone of the organ & the beautiful haunting melodies of men's plainchant. A cd that I might consider buying if we weren't trying to downsize.





Frescobaldi, Obras para clave. Gustav Leonhardt, clave
I enjoyed this. An enchanting sound - resonant twangling - conducive to serene meditation.





Girolamo Frescobaldi Il Secondo Libro di Toccate 1637
Some harpsichord (?), some organ. Lovely sounds. Definitely growing on me. 
One of the organ pieces seemed a bit heavy and dreary.
But it finished up with some lovely melodic harpsi/clavi/chord music.





Primo Libro di Arie Musicali 1630
Songs. Quavering stuff - pretty, but a bit monotonous. But included some livelier tunes that I liked better. However, the female voice(s) on this are not to my taste - too rich and wobbly, which casts a blur round the notes and therefore makes the tune less clear and affecting. Just a personal taste.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My overall verdict? 
*Frescobaldi is Fab* - I liked a lot of what I listened to - though the Baroque Era is so full of talented composers that I wouldn't put him higher than halfway in my list of personal favourites.
However, I hope in the future to be visiting *Frescobaldi Village* again.


----------



## Ingélou

The next stop on the Wiki Baroque Composers List is *Heinrich Schutz*:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Schütz
*'His best known works are in the field of sacred music, ranging from solo voice with instrumental accompaniment to a cappella choral music.' *

Here's the Composer Guestbook, put up fairly recently:
Heinrich Schütz (1585 - 1672)
He had a good long life - lived to be 87.

Here are some links from the Guestbook:




Opus Ultimum 1/ Philippe Herreweghe
(Just hearing a snatch of it as I post, and already the beautiful sound is lifting my spirits.
Looks as if Herr Schutz will be an enjoyable listen.) :tiphat:

And here's number 2 to the above, lined up. 





I'll need to sort out some more music to listen to from YouTube - in the meantime, I am very grateful to any TC member who can help me to sort out *the sheep from the goats****, Schutz-wise. :tiphat:

*** *That's if there are any goats!*


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## classical yorkist

You really can't go wrong with any Schutz, a truly superb composer and a forebear to Bach. Try the Musicalische Exequien or his Christmas Story. Truly astonishing.
I've moved just a little bit forward of the baroque recently and have been listening to quite a bit of classical Era music. It's not as good as the baroque but I've become quite obsessed with finding out about classical Era harpsichord.


----------



## Ingélou

My latest stage in my listening project from the Wiki List - Heinrich Schutz. 
*Half-time Report: *
My computer is going a bit dodgy so I'm going to post my 'reaction notes' and the links before it goes belly-up. 

*First, I listened to Opus Ultimum, Philippe Herreweghe, 1 & 2:*
1. 



*Heavenly harmonies, very beautiful. I do get bored or else mentally switch off after a while, but that's me.*
2. 



 *Lovely - more Celestial Wallpaper! 
*
*Next - Heinrich Schutz: Schwanengesang - Hilliard Ensemble:*






*Now, this was really special. 
The voices and arrangements are so beautiful, with lovely instrumental accompaniment. 
Definitely holds my attention and affects my mood. 5 stars!
*
*Next - almost two and a half hours of Davids Psalmen:*





*My reaction to this varied a little. 
At first, I thought - well, it's pleasant, quiet, harmonious - doesn't paint the town red for me, though.
Half an hour in, and I thought - you know, this is definitely growing on me. It's majestic & plangent - beautiful. 
An hour in, and I was getting a bit bored again. 
But at the two hour mark it perked up again (as far as I was concerned)- I found such lovely harmonies, voices and instruments. 
*
*This project, as one would imagine, is telling me more about me and my listening tastes than about the composer. I don't have the concentration to listen to hours of beautiful sacred choral music - I like it much better when there is instrumental accompaniment - but nothing can take away from the fact that Schutz's music is really beautiful.

I have three more items to listen to - two on YouTube, and the other we own - the latter I'll probably listen to on the way to church this afternoon (it's Good Friday). It's the Musicalische Exequien, as recommended by Classical Yorkist.* :tiphat:


----------



## Taggart

Schutz Musikalische Exequien plus 4 motets

This is the first German Requiem and sets a very high standard. Gardiner has a fine cast of singers and they give an excellent account of the piece. We found it beautiful but not totally engaging. This was partly to do with the balance - one or two voices singing relatively softly then a sudden lift in volume as the chorus came in. That made it difficult to concentrate on the different parts as we had to keep adjusting the volume. The other problem was the hearty nature of the singing. It had a a certain archness that we found off-putting. Somebody remarked that Gardiner emphasises the dance rhythms in the music. At times, it sounded more like a huntsman's chorus than church music.


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## classical yorkist

Picked this up in a 2nd hand bookshop for £3.50 and it's simply wonderful. Those period instruments have such a warm sound and the ensemble is fat and fruity. The recording is spacious enough to pick out an individual instrument (I have found in the past that the continuo is too quiet on some other recordings) but sounds close and together as well.

View attachment 102516


I've got quite a few releases on the Brilliant Classics label and they are all, to a one, simply brilliant. I would recommend them without a qualm for quality of performance, sound and repertoire. Another bonus is their incredibly attractive price point.


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## classical yorkist

You know I've spent the last couple of weeks listening to classical Era music and I've come to the very solid conclusion that I just don't like it that much. It sounds bland and quite uninspiring after so much baroque music. I like some of the stuff Mozart did and a little Haydn but mostly it's quite boring to my ears. Some of Haydn's mass settings are wonderful and I have developed a love for Mozart's piano Sonatas played on period pianoforte's but mostly I've found little of interest. So bach to the baroque it is!


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## Mandryka

classical yorkist said:


> You know I've spent the last couple of weeks listening to classical Era music and I've come to the very solid conclusion that I just don't like it that much. It sounds bland and quite uninspiring after so much baroque music. I like some of the stuff Mozart did and a little Haydn but mostly it's quite boring to my ears. Some of Haydn's mass settings are wonderful and I have developed a love for Mozart's piano Sonatas played on period pianoforte's but mostly I've found little of interest. So bach to the baroque it is!


I don't hear much of a fundamental difference between the end of baroque and classical style, Mozart and Haydn are basically working with the same concepts as Rameau and the mature Purcell. It's mostly about resolution, consonance, simple memorable melody, simple rhythms. If you go a generation before, to Sainte Colombe rather than Marais, to Louis Couperin rather than Rameau, to Tobias Hume rather than Henry Purcell, then yes, I can hear a major difference. Although I'm interested in these composers from the turn of the 17th century, I'm also interested in Mozart and Haydn. Other classical composers no, there I agree with you. Life's too short for Anton Ferdinand Titz and the like.


----------



## Ingélou

Mandryka said:


> I don't hear much of a fundamental difference between the end of baroque and classical style, Mozart and Haydn are basically working with the same concepts as Francois Couperin and Rameau and Purcell. It's mostly about resolution, consonance, simple memorable melody, simple rhythms. If you go a generation before, to Sainte Colombe rather than Marais, to Louis Couperin rather than Francois, to Tobias Hume rather than Henry Purcell, then yes, I can hear a major difference.


Surprised you include Henry Purcell, who died in 1695, in the list with Rameau & Francois Couperin - and I must say, I do find him rather different to Mozart.

When I started listening to classical music in general, about six years ago, I didn't find much difference between twiddly Mozart & twiddly baroque; I remember asking my fiddle teacher, an HIP violinist & violist, what the difference was. I have his answer still, in an email, and basically it was that Bach was like a Gothic cathedral with extra chapels thrown out here and there, and Mozart a classical building, grand but symmetrical.

I accept that there is going to be an overlap between styles, since history doesn't fall into neatly-labelled bottles, but I do now hear quite a difference between baroque and classical-era music. And, though I bow to Mozart's genius, I don't often listen to his music - it seems a bit smooth, somehow, compared with most baroque.

Still - à chacun son goût. :tiphat:


----------



## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> You know I've spent the last couple of weeks listening to classical Era music and I've come to the very solid conclusion that I just don't like it that much. It sounds bland and quite uninspiring after so much baroque music. I like some of the stuff Mozart did and a little Haydn but mostly it's quite boring to my ears. Some of Haydn's mass settings are wonderful and I have developed a love for Mozart's piano Sonatas played on period pianoforte's but mostly I've found little of interest. So bach to the baroque it is!


I have much the same reaction, though I need to listen to more Haydn. Most of what I've listened to of his has been mass-settings, as it happens, and I have liked and admired them.

And I love this, by his brother!


----------



## Mandryka

Ingélou said:


> Surprised you include Henry Purcell, who died in 1695, in the list with Rameau & Francois Couperin - and I must say, I do find him rather different to Mozart.
> 
> When I started listening to classical music in general, about six years ago, I didn't find much difference between twiddly Mozart & twiddly baroque; I remember asking my fiddle teacher, an HIP violinist & violist, what the difference was. I have his answer still, in an email, and basically it was that Bach was like a Gothic cathedral with extra chapels thrown out here and there, and Mozart a classical building, grand but symmetrical.
> 
> I accept that there is going to be an overlap between styles, since history doesn't fall into neatly-labelled bottles, but I do now hear quite a difference between baroque and classical-era music. And, though I bow to Mozart's genius, I don't often listen to his music - it seems a bit smooth, somehow, compared with most baroque.
> 
> Still - à chacun son goût. :tiphat:


Bach is a different kettle of fish because he was so unwilling to adopt the gallant style, I strongly suspect he held galant music in total contempt. Is there so much of a difference between a Rameau consort and a Purcell sonata in four parts? I suppose it all depends on your level of abstraction.

The issues are clearest in organ music I think. In chamber music it all seems essentially the same. All about tonality and melody.


----------



## classical yorkist

Mandryka said:


> I don't hear much of a fundamental difference between the end of baroque and classical style, Mozart and Haydn are basically working with the same concepts as Rameau and the mature Purcell. It's mostly about resolution, consonance, simple memorable melody, simple rhythms. If you go a generation before, to Sainte Colombe rather than Marais, to Louis Couperin rather than Rameau, to Tobias Hume rather than Henry Purcell, then yes, I can hear a major difference. Although I'm interested in these composers from the turn of the 17th century, I'm also interested in Mozart and Haydn. Other classical composers no, there I agree with you. Life's too short for Anton Ferdinand Titz and the like.


I think what it all boils down to is my lack of enthusiasm for the symphony. I just can't take to them at all, so any Haydn or Mozart symphony I listen to I just shrug off. I do really enjoy painoforte and harpsichord pieces of he early classical period but the Galant style is not one of my favourites. However, CPE Bach is one of my favourite composers an he's definitely a transitional composer. Give me a baroque concerto to listen to. I can't really explain it any more than the twisty turny muscularity of baroque music really stimulates my mind especially when played of period instruments.


----------



## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> I think what it all boils down to is my lack of enthusiasm for the symphony. I just can't take to them at all, so any Haydn or Mozart symphony I listen to I just shrug off. I do really enjoy painoforte and harpsichord pieces of he early classical period but the Galant style is not one of my favourites. However, CPE Bach is one of my favourite composers an he's definitely a transitional composer. Give me a baroque concerto to listen to. I can't really explain it any more than *the twisty turny muscularity of baroque music* really stimulates my mind especially when played of period instruments.


What a brilliantly descriptive phrase! :tiphat:


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## Mandryka

Here's something I've been listening to today, Kuijken and Savall playing a bit of Sainte Colombe (the elder), I don't know if it's musicular or twisty


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## classical yorkist

Mandryka said:


> Here's something I've been listening to today, Kuijken and Savall playing a bit of Sainte Colombe (the elder), I don't know if it's musicular or twisty


When I hear that piece it totally illustrates my phrase and what I hear in my head. It's a wiry sound. I don't want to belabour the point but that's what I hear. I'm no musicologist and can't explain it technically.


----------



## Jacck

another Czech composer I discovered through youtube that I did not know before. Sounds interesting


----------



## Mandryka

classical yorkist said:


> I think what it all boils down to is my lack of enthusiasm for the symphony. I just can't take to them at all, so any Haydn or Mozart symphony I listen to I just shrug off. I do really enjoy painoforte and harpsichord pieces of he early classical period but the Galant style is not one of my favourites. However, CPE Bach is one of my favourite composers an he's definitely a transitional composer. Give me a baroque concerto to listen to. I can't really explain it any more than the twisty turny muscularity of baroque music really stimulates my mind especially when played of period instruments.


What I think happens in a lot of late Baroque is that melody gains the upper hand over harmony. And melody is something which continues to be dominant in a lot of classical style music too. In earlier music the voices interact freely to produce textures and rhythms. That's why I say that in some very fundamental sense late baroque and classical style share the same values, the same basic aesthetic ideas.


----------



## Ingélou

To complete my listening to Schutz, as part of my OP project of sampling every baroque composer on the Wiki list, I listened to a set of madrigals:




These were quite pretty, but sometimes had those shrieky female voices and astringent harmonies that are not really my taste.

I also tried - rather unseasonably on Easter Monday!  - his Christmas Story:




(San Francisco Music Society - The Whole Noyse; Sex Chordae Consort of Viols).

Lovely harmonies & very fine singing. I liked this.

My next composer on the list to listen to is *Samuel Scheidt*. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Scheidt

It's another of those cases where Taggart is having to create the Composer Guest Book to go with him. But then, when we joined Talk Classical in 2013, there was no Composer Guest Book on Lully!

Here in Seaside Norfolk, it's a typical British Bank Holiday Monday - rainy, dim & dreary. 
A day to stay inside and be ravished by baroque music. :angel:


----------



## classical yorkist

Listened to the Munchinger _Easter Oratorio_ this morning and didn't really enjoy it that much. It seemed to lack a little of the Bach sparkle. Maybe I just wasn't in the mood! So, I've put on some Bach Flute and Harpsichord Sonatas and I'm much happier. Trevor Pinnock is an amazing harpsichordist.


----------



## Mowgli

I was 20 discs deep into the gold Archiv box when this dropped to my porch yesterday.
Nice Brandenburgs & Violin Concertos. I really enjoy their playing.









I watched this movie last night and who do the players happen to be? Tafelmusik.
The synchronicity was strong so I clicked buy on the Straight Outta Tafelmusik t-shirt that's been sitting in my cart for months.
Chevalier de Saint-Georges - Wikipedia


----------



## premont

classical yorkist said:


> Listened to the Munchinger _Easter Oratorio_ this morning and didn't really enjoy it that much. It seemed to lack a little of the Bach sparkle. Maybe I just wasn't in the mood! So, I've put on some Bach Flute and Harpsichord Sonatas and I'm much happier. Trevor Pinnock is an amazing harpsichordist.


While the Preston/Pinnock is immediately convincing, one has admittedly got to be in the mood for Münchinger's Bach, whatever the Brandenburgs, Art of Fugue, SMP, SJP et.c., but never-the-less I find Münchinger to be one of the most important Bach interpreters of the 1950es and 1960es.


----------



## premont

Ingélou said:


> My next composer on the list to listen to is *Samuel Scheidt*.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Scheidt


I think Scheidt's importance first and foremost rests in his organ works. In this context I can recommend the intended complete organ series on the label ***** and also the recordings of Tabulatura Nova by Franz Raml on MDG.

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/das-orgelwerk-vol-11/hnum/5275678

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/de...-1587-1654-Tabulatura-Nova-Vol-1/hnum/7060968


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## Mandryka

I just noticed that this has been rereleased on Spotify









And I just took a punt on this CD


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## premont

Mandryka said:


> I just noticed that this has been rereleased on Spotify
> View attachment 102678


A mixed pleasure, I suppose. But what the heck, Spotify is not available to me anyway.



Mandryka; said:


> And I just took a punt on this CD
> View attachment 102679


Looks interesting, an LP from the 1980es, but was it ever released on CD? It must be the first recording of the Hassler variations. Waldemar Döling made a very straightforward Bach LP around 1960 (in Karl Richter style I would say -yawn,yawn) and he is also featured in Harry Newstone's 5th Brandenburg (1958) with an equally straightforward interpretation of the harpsichord part. But he may of course have improved with time.

Here is a picture of him (with Helmut Winschermann and others):

http://kusa2.jp/information/history/photo/historybox/


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## Mandryka

premont said:


> A mixed pleasure, I suppose. But what the heck, Spotify is not available to me anyway.
> 
> Looks interesting, an LP from the 1980es, but was it ever released on CD? It must be the first recording of the Hassler variations. Waldemar Döling made a very straightforward Bach LP around 1960 (in Karl Richter style I would say -yawn,yawn) and he is also featured in Harry Newstone's 5th Brandenburg (1958) with an equally straightforward interpretation of the harpsichord part. But he may of course have improved with time.
> 
> Here is a picture of him (with Helmut Winschermann and others):
> 
> http://kusa2.jp/information/history/photo/historybox/


Ah, well I've just written to the seller to see if it's really a CD and asking to cancel if it's an LP. I'll keep you informed.


----------



## Mandryka

premont said:


> A mixed pleasure, I suppose. But what the heck, Spotify is not available to me anyway.
> 
> Looks interesting, an LP from the 1980es, but was it ever released on CD? It must be the first recording of the Hassler variations. Waldemar Döling made a very straightforward Bach LP around 1960 (in Karl Richter style I would say -yawn,yawn) and he is also featured in Harry Newstone's 5th Brandenburg (1958) with an equally straightforward interpretation of the harpsichord part. But he may of course have improved with time.
> 
> Here is a picture of him (with Helmut Winschermann and others):
> 
> http://kusa2.jp/information/history/photo/historybox/


I just learned "Our offer is an Audio CD, not a Vinyl LP."


----------



## premont

Mandryka said:


> I just learned "Our offer is an Audio CD, not a Vinyl LP."


I have not managed to find it as an CD anywhere. On the contrary it is described as an LP here (Produktbeschreibung - bottom of the page). I shall wait to order it myself, until I know whether the item you receive is an LP or a CD:

https://www.amazon.de/Variationen-für-Cembalo/dp/B00GWRPF14


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## Mandryka

premont said:


> I have not managed to find it as an CD anywhere. On the contrary it is described as an LP here (Produktbeschreibung - bottom of the page). I shall wait to order it myself, until I know whether the item you receive is an LP or a CD:
> 
> https://www.amazon.de/Variationen-für-Cembalo/dp/B00GWRPF14


That sounds wise. As it is I'm spending the morning listening to Georges Guillard's organ recording of the variations, which is very enjoyable. If you want me to send it to you, let me know.


----------



## premont

Mandryka said:


> That sounds wise. As it is I'm spending the morning listening to Georges Guillard's organ recording of the variations, which is very enjoyable. If you want me to send it to you, let me know.


Thanks, this sounds like a splendid offer, since all the recordings I own of these variations are played on the harpsichord.

On the organ, there is also this, which I just found and haven't heard yet;






and off topic, have you seen this:


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## classical yorkist

Listening to this today after buying last week. Never heard of Smith before but appears to have been Handel's apprentice. Played on a reconstructed French double manual and an original 1770 single manual English harpsichord. The French instrument sounds light and sprightly and the English sounds deep and fat, a very nice contrast. Gosh I love hearing a harpsichord.









By the way, the painting on the cover is simply astonishing. Canaletto painting London as Venice. What I wouldn't give for an hour strolling around that painting.


----------



## premont

classical yorkist said:


> View attachment 102683
> 
> 
> By the way, the painting on the cover is simply astonishing. Canaletto painting London as Venice. What I wouldn't give for an hour strolling around that painting.


Yes, one of the relatively few cases, where the cover equals the music.


----------



## Mandryka

premont said:


> Thanks, this sounds like a splendid offer, since all the recordings I own of these variations are played on the harpsichord.
> 
> On the organ, there is also this, which I just found and haven't heard yet;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and off topic, have you seen this:


The Caurroy is very good indeed, it must have been Isoir's first recording.


----------



## premont

Mandryka said:


> The Caurroy is very good indeed, it must have been Isoir's first recording.


It is from 1966. He recorded some Lebèque and Lasceux in 1965, also for Vox, and one with the title: Les chants de la première communion, for RCA, se the link below:

https://www.france-orgue.fr/disque/...=&oeu=&ins=&cdo=1&vno=1&edi=&nrow=50&cmd=Next


----------



## Mandryka

premont said:


> Thanks, this sounds like a splendid offer, since all the recordings I own of these variations are played on the harpsichord.
> 
> On the organ, there is also this, which I just found and haven't heard yet;


I'm convinced now that this is a good organ piece. There's something calm and spacious about what Bailleux does, yet there's sufficient contrast between each variation. There's an intensity about her style which makes the performance more than routine. Nice organ though evidently the recording would have been clearer in an ideal world. I shall revisit her Arauxo this weekend.


----------



## Mandryka

View attachment 102706


I've been playing Leonhardt's DHM AoF.

People who don't know it are missing something special. What I'd forgotten was how independent the voices are in Leonhardt's performances, producing tension and release, drama. His style is all about the nuance of how the voices relate, the rhythm , phrasing and the touch of the notes. My impression is that he's more free and bold about how to play the counterpoint here than he was in his Well Tempered Clavier, which is maybe outstanding in other ways. This is just from memory, I could be mistaken.

What I had remembered correctly was how expressive the music is in his hands -- but I'd forgotten the variety of emotions he finds in the different fugues, which are sometimes vigorous and radiant, sometimes meditative . . . .

I wonder whether Rubsam's lute harpsichord recording is equally successful at revealing the emotional range. I shall check . . .


----------



## premont

Mandryka said:


> View attachment 102706
> 
> 
> What I had remembered correctly was how expressive the music [AoF] is in his [Leonhardt's] hands -- but I'd forgotten the variety of emotions he finds in the different fugues, which are sometimes vigorous and radiant, sometimes meditative . . . .
> 
> *I wonder whether Rubsam's lute harpsichord recording is equally successful at revealing the emotional range*. I shall check . . .


I do not think so. Rübsam's lut harpsichord recording makes a less varied impression, but I think this has much to do with the instrument, because his organ recording for Naxos certainly reveals a broad emotional range, perhaps even too broad.


----------



## premont

Mandryka said:


> I'm convinced now that this is a good organ piece. There's something calm and spacious about what Bailleux does, yet there's sufficient contrast between each variation. There's an intensity about her style which makes the performance more than routine. Nice organ though evidently the recording would have been clearer in an ideal world. I shall revisit her Arauxo this weekend.


Yes it works well on organ. I have not yet heard the Guillard, but I have just listened to the Bailleux. I find her playing very attractive, but the choice of an obvious classical French organ is IMO not ideal for this music. I look forward to listen to Guillard.

F. Munoz has uploaded a lot of Baillards otherwise unavailable recordings to youtube:


----------



## Ingélou

I've finished my sampling of *Samuel Scheidt*.

Here's the *Composer Guestbook*, provided recently by my enthusiastic spouse. :tiphat:
Samuel Scheidt (1587 - 1654)

I'll post what I listened to, with my reactions as noted at the time:

*Samuel SCHEIDT - LUDI MUSICI - HESPÈRION XX & Jordi SAVALL*




*I knew this would be good. As one of the comments on the YouTube video put it, 'anything Jordi Savall touches becomes gold'...﻿ - It's very nice. I love this full bodied rich instrumental sound. Lovely.
*
*Battle Suite - Recorded live in Alte Pfarrkirche Schwarzenfeld, 09. October 2011
performed by i-Tüpferl*




*I found myself thinking of the quotation from Sir Philip Sidney, about 'feeling his heart stirred, as by a trumpet' - not surprisingly, because it was a trumpet.  Lovely!
*
*German Brass Samuel Scheidt Suite für Blechbläser*




*A nice blast!*

*Samuel Scheidt - Duo Seraphim clamabant (SSWV10) - Dresdner Kreuzchor*




*Glorious!*

*Samuel Scheidt "Jesus Christus, unser Heiland" Variations for organ*




*Pleasant listening.*

*Professor Schneider performs six works for organ by Samuel Scheidt. These are taken from his "Tabulatura Nova". The 1957 recording was played on the Praetorius organ at the University of Freiburg.*
I. Psalmus 'Da Jesus an dem Kreuze stund'
II. Fantasia à 4 voc. super 'Ich ruf zu dir, herr Jesu Christ' 7:17 
III. Hymnus 'Christe, qui lux es et dies' 16:09 
IV. Modus ludendi pleno organo pedaliter à 6 voc. 26:05 
V. Kyrie dominicale IV toni cum Gloria 28:39 
VI. Modus pleno organo pedaliter, Benedicamus à 6 voc. 47:22 




*August - serene. Rolling sunlit prairies.*

*Samuel Scheidt Paduan a 4 Gustav Leonhardt*




*Lovely - lyrical and graceful. *

*SAMUEL SCHEIDT - Bergamasca*




*Intimately beautiful. 
*

Final Verdict - I'd never heard of him before, but hey, *Scheidt is Fabulous!*
There is just *so much talent* around in the Baroque era.


----------



## Ingélou

The next staging post is *Francesco Cavalli*, and here's the Composer Guestbook for him, recently put up by :angel: my enthusiastic spouse:
Francesco Cavalli (1602 - 1675)

Any suggestions for Cavalli will be gratefully accepted. :tiphat:


----------



## josquindesprez

Ingélou said:


> Any suggestions for Cavalli will be gratefully accepted. :tiphat:


I love Cavalli! Somewhat Monteverdi-like at times, though maybe not so developed. The Requiem, Atiennes a la Vierge, and Vespers of the Blessed Virgin are all very nice. I'm less taken with the Messa Concertata. I have the Akdemia recording of the first two and Concerto Palatino recording of the Vespers. I have no idea about his opera works though and that's apparently what he's mostly known for. Excited to see a potential fan around here.


----------



## Ingélou

josquindesprez said:


> I love Cavalli! Somewhat Monteverdi-like at times, though maybe not so developed. The Requiem, Atiennes a la Vierge, and Vespers of the Blessed Virgin are all very nice. I'm less taken with the Messa Concertata. I have the Akdemia recording of the first two and Concerto Palatino recording of the Vespers. I have no idea about his opera works though and that's apparently what he's mostly known for. Excited to see a potential fan around here.


Thanks for your post, josquindesprez. :tiphat:
I've now finished my sampling of Cavalli. 
 I'm afraid I wasn't able to act on many of your suggestions, because I can't afford to buy cds of all the baroque composers on the Wiki list, and in any case we're trying to downsize to make it easier to move house this year.

So I haven't had enough evidence to make me a fan - but going on the YouTube videos I've been able to listen to, I do like Cavalli - think he's a good composer - and somebody that it would be worth revisiting. 
There was also one cd that I'd like to own when/if we manage our move.

Here's what I listened to, with brief notes of my reactions at the time:

*Cavalli - La Calisto 'Numi Selvatici'*




*Very amusing, with the bear!*

*Cavalli - il Giasone "Delizie Contente" Cecilia Bartoli*




and *Cavalli - il Giasone "Delizie Contente" Michael Chance*




*Both these Jasons are pretty; am not an especial fan of counter-tenors but I prefer Michael Chance here. Slightly more feeling, imo.*

*Francesco Cavalli (Caletti-Bruni detto il C.1602-1676) : Sonata a 12 da ''Musiche Sacre''
Gabriel Garrido*




*Charming*

*Cavalli: Salve Regina - Cleobury*




*Beautiful. *

*Concerto Palatino with Francesco Cavalli (1602-1676): Magnificat*




*I could hardly believe that it was a Magnificat as it didn't sound like sacred music. But the sound is magnificent, right enough.*

*Francesco Cavalli, "L'Amore Innamorato" - L'Arpeggiata *




*Love it so far - lovely voice & instrumentation, very reminiscent of Barbara Strozzi.
It gets rather groovy with swinging drum rhythms etc at c27 mins - Francesco Cavalli: La Calisto - Ninfa bella (Hana Blažíková). - I like it, but wonder how authentic it is.
Overall - an amazing voice, brilliant instrumental accompaniment, really beautiful music.
I'd like to get this cd some day. *

*I also found some very short bits of Cavalli's requiem on YouTube - too many and too short to note, but the ones I listened to, I enjoyed. *


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## Ingélou

There'll be a short break here, till after my trip to York; the next one up is my beloved *William Lawes*. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Lawes

Here's the Composer Guestbook, put up by Orpheus. :tiphat:
William Lawes

So far, out of the Wiki list of baroque composers - 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Baroque_composers

I've listened to:
*1. Jacopo Peri
2. Giulio Caccini
3. Francesca Caccini
4. Claudio Monteverdi
5. Gregorio Allegri
6. Girolamo Frescobaldi
7. Heinrich Schutz
8. Samuel Scheidt
9. Francesco Cavalli. 
*
Actually, the Caccinis were not on the list, so I've covered seven out of the fifty baroque composers listed by Wiki.
*Plenty of enjoyment to come, then...!*


----------



## Dirge

Henry PURCELL: _Dido & Aeneas_ (1680s)
:: Bott, etc., Hogwood/The Academy of Ancient Music [L'Oiseau-Lyre '92]

All in all, this is the most entertaining and enjoyable account of _Dido & Aeneas_ that I've heard. Catherine Bott isn't as exalted as Janet Baker or Jessye Norman, nor does she try to be, but she's excellent in her own right and fits beautifully into the relatively lithe and nimble production. Hogwood demonstrates a deft touch and slightly mischievous theatrical instincts throughout, eliciting colorful characterization and a touch of whimsy from his forces while conjuring up a sort of proto-Mendelssohnian/_A Midsummer Night's Dream_ atmosphere. The cast is excellent across the board, both in terms of singing and vocal acting, though some listeners might raise an eyebrow at the casting of bass David Thomas as the Sorceress: the witches/sorceress scenes have an animated Disney_esque_ quality about them, so Thomas-in-vocal-drag fits the bill nicely if you envision the Sorceress as an especially grotesque woman. The production also incorporates very prominent "thunder" effects in the background; many listeners find them over the top and distracting, but I kind of miss them when there gone (when listening to other recordings).





 (_Dido & Aeneas_ ~ Hogwood)

As much as I like this performance, I have to supplement it with Baker's devastating account of "When I am laid to earth" (aka, "Dido's Lament"). Bott's account is first-rate, don't get me wrong, and absent of hearing Baker's account you could be forgiven for thinking it tough to beat, but Baker's is one of those freakishly good outpourings that comes along maybe once in a lifetime.





 ("Thy hand, Belinda … When I am laid to earth" ~ Baker)


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## Mandryka

Ingélou said:


> There'll be a short break here, till after my trip to York; the next one up is my beloved *William Lawes*.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Lawes
> 
> Here's the Composer Guestbook, put up by Orpheus. :tiphat:
> William Lawes
> 
> So far, out of the Wiki list of baroque composers -
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Baroque_composers
> 
> I've listened to:
> *1. Jacopo Peri
> 2. Giulio Caccini
> 3. Francesca Caccini
> 4. Claudio Monteverdi
> 5. Gregorio Allegri
> 6. Girolamo Frescobaldi
> 7. Heinrich Schutz
> 8. Samuel Scheidt
> 9. Francesco Cavalli.
> *
> Actually, the Caccinis were not on the list, so I've covered seven out of the fifty baroque composers listed by Wiki.
> *Plenty of enjoyment to come, then...!*


I'm convinced that John Jenkins is a better bet to explore than William Lawes, at least for instrumental music. Or even John Ward.


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## Ingélou

Mandryka said:


> I'm convinced that John Jenkins is a better bet to explore than William Lawes, at least for instrumental music. Or even John Ward.


I'm working through the Wiki list & William Lawes is next on the list, so it's not really a question of *better bets*. But thanks for your suggestions. I'll be looking at side-alleys not on the list, and I had already decided to look at Henry Lawes & John Jenkins - I've listened to some music of theirs in the past but will try to find more. 
And I'll add John Ward to my list too. :tiphat:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ward_(composer)

But first - *William Lawes*, whom *I* love, even if *you're* not a fan. 

PS - John Jenkins, Henry Lawes and John Ward don't seem to have composer guestbooks of their own. Must get MacSpouse on the case...


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## classical yorkist

I've gone on an out of control spending spree lately thanks to the Chandos sale and now have a massive backlog of amazing baroque CDs to listen to. It's all a little too much really.


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## Mandryka

Ingélou said:


> I'm working through the Wiki list & William Lawes is next on the list, so it's not really a question of *better bets*. But thanks for your suggestions. I'll be looking at side-alleys not on the list, and I had already decided to look at Henry Lawes & John Jenkins - I've listened to some music of theirs in the past but will try to find more.
> And I'll add John Ward to my list too. :tiphat:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ward_(composer)
> 
> But first - *William Lawes*, whom *I* love, even if *you're* not a fan.
> 
> PS - John Jenkins, Henry Lawes and John Ward don't seem to have composer guestbooks of their own. Must get MacSpouse on the case...


My biggest disappointment with Lawes came when Richard Boothby released the complete solo viol music. I'd heard a few of the pieces played by Jonathan Dunford before and they sounded promising, but no, in Boothby's hands they're too tame and polite to be interesting to me.

There are some Lawes performers I've enjoyed, The Elizabethan Consort (Thurston Dart) and Concordia (Mark Levy) and The Leonhardt Consort come to mind. I think generally I'm not a great fan of late baroque composers - too much Italian influence maybe, that damn Corelli stopped the party.

Someone was asking for recommendations for Purcell's instrumental music recently and apart from the backward looking stuff (the viol consort music), and Egarr (who makes the music his own) I thought . . . no.


----------



## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> I've gone on an out of control spending spree lately thanks to the Chandos sale and now have a massive backlog of amazing baroque CDs to listen to. It's all a little too much really.


All the same, it sounds rather wonderful! Do share your opinions of the music with us. :tiphat:


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## Ingélou

I'm onto *William Lawes* in my Wiki-List Baroque Listening Project. 
Lawes lived from 1602 till he was tragically shot dead at the age of 43 in England's Civil War, which means that he overlaps the 'early & middle periods' of baroque music:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baroque_music

He is one of my fiddle teacher's likes, earning Fiddle Guru's favoured epithet of 'experimental' - maybe (I haven't asked him) because of what Wiki calls 
*'...his sublime viol consort suites for between three and six players and his lyra viol music. His use of counterpoint and fugue and his tendency to juxtapose bizarre, spine-tingling themes next to pastoral ones in these works made them disfavoured in the centuries after his death; they have only become widely available in recent years.'
*
Sadly, there seems to be very little on YouTube, but this time, I'll try to acquire some cds or mp3s.

We already have one cd, the *Harp Consorts*, and we listened to that (again) today.










I like this. It is played rather calmly throughout, which might put some people off, but there are so many pleasurable levels to listen to here, and for me the music lives & induces thought. 
*harmonic strata** + patterned tunefulness + lithe tempos + lyric purity = Crystalline Eloquence*.


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## classical yorkist

Ingélou said:


> I'm onto *William Lawes* in my Wiki-List Baroque Listening Project.
> Lawes lived from 1602 till he was tragically shot dead at the age of 43 in England's Civil War, which means that he overlaps the 'early & middle periods' of baroque music:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baroque_music
> 
> He is one of my fiddle teacher's likes, earning Fiddle Guru's favoured epithet of 'experimental' - maybe (I haven't asked him) because of what Wiki calls
> *'...his sublime viol consort suites for between three and six players and his lyra viol music. His use of counterpoint and fugue and his tendency to juxtapose bizarre, spine-tingling themes next to pastoral ones in these works made them disfavoured in the centuries after his death; they have only become widely available in recent years.'
> *
> Sadly, there seems to be very little on YouTube, but this time, I'll try to acquire some cds or mp3s.
> 
> We already have one cd, the *Harp Consorts*, and we listened to that (again) today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I like this. It is played rather calmly throughout, which might put some people off, but there are so many pleasurable levels to listen to here, and for me the music lives & induces thought.
> *harmonic strata** + patterned tunefulness + lithe tempos + lyric purity = Crystalline Eloquence*.


His Consort Sets are absolutely where it's at. Find them if you can.


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## Mandryka

Ingélou said:


> I'm onto *William Lawes* in my Wiki-List Baroque Listening Project.
> Lawes lived from 1602 till he was tragically shot dead at the age of 43 in England's Civil War, which means that he overlaps the 'early & middle periods' of baroque music:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baroque_music
> 
> He is one of my fiddle teacher's likes, earning Fiddle Guru's favoured epithet of 'experimental' - maybe (I haven't asked him) because of what Wiki calls
> *'...his sublime viol consort suites for between three and six players and his lyra viol music. His use of counterpoint and fugue and his tendency to juxtapose bizarre, spine-tingling themes next to pastoral ones in these works made them disfavoured in the centuries after his death; they have only become widely available in recent years.'
> *
> Sadly, there seems to be very little on YouTube, but this time, I'll try to acquire some cds or mp3s.
> 
> We already have one cd, the *Harp Consorts*, and we listened to that (again) today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I like this. It is played rather calmly throughout, which might put some people off, but there are so many pleasurable levels to listen to here, and for me the music lives & induces thought.
> *harmonic strata** + patterned tunefulness + lithe tempos + lyric purity = Crystalline Eloquence*.


It would be nice to have some examples of these juxtapositions of "spine tingling" and pastoral. And what's so interesting about his counterpoint? Also a bit of justification for that wiki point about his reception (badly received because . . . ) wouldn't go amiss.

Another good Lawes CD, apart from the ones I mentioned the other day, is from Music's Recreation. The one you have sounds not bad. I just think this is really pretty mediocre music, if charming and undemanding.


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## Mandryka

View attachment 103057


I find these consorts by Matthew Locke more inventive and surprising on the whole than Lawes's and even Ward's. Ensemble de Violes Orlando Gibbons is impeccable - refined and focused, serious. Maybe you could criticise them for obliterating any quintessentially English buffoonery and grotesqueness from the music, but you can't have it all ways at once. Lovely CD of lovely music. Surprisingly the music is later than Lawes, but seems quite interesting in all the voices - certainly there are unexpected harmonies and changes of direction - but always in the best possible taste, as Cupid Stunt would have said.


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## Mandryka

View attachment 103058


Other people tell me things about Lawes which quite frankly, I don't hear. They tell me that his music is bold and rumbustious and unpredictable and imaginative and emotionally complex. But mostly I hear just wonderfully constructed genteel Italianate galant light entertainment.

Then I discovered this antique recording from the Elizabethan Consort with Thurston Dart. Although the nature of the music is unchanged, these performances so exude a love of the music and a total at-ease-ness with the idiom, it really would be churlish to do anything other than lie back and wallow in the beauty of it all. The beauty and the _life_ - they make it come alive.

The label, Argo, issued some really rare recordings by Kenneth Gilbert a couple of years ago - recordings which had never been on CD. His first Purcell, and his D'Anglebert and Chambonnières. But the downloads lasted for a very short time and are now like hens' teeth. This is one to snap up.


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## Mandryka

View attachment 103059


John Ward (1590-1638); William Lawes (April 1602 - 24 September 1645)

Not much in it by the birth and death dates, but a world of difference in their consort music for largish ensembles. (Lawes's music for solo viol and two viols seems a different kettle of fish - different genre almost.)

My feeling is that John Ward is much less influenced by the galant idea of simple emotional sunniness, and a lyrical soloist padded out by the other instruments, an idea which may well come from Corelli and which, IMO, heralded a sort of dumbing down of music all over Europe.

Ward sounds much more like earlier music, with more interesting inner voices, more varied affects, more striking dissonances, more surprising twists and turns, less extrovert virtuoso stuff, more meditation. I couldn't help but think of chamber music by Scheidemann, Scheidt, Buxtehude and Frescobaldi.

Phantasm seem well up to the task in this recording, it's a good thing they've taken Ward under their wing because, as far as I can see, everyone else ignores him. Both in concert and on record I've sometimes been disturbed by the sort of balance Phantasm favours, which seems to me to give prominence to the higher voices. But here it seems less worrying for some reason.


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## Mandryka

View attachment 103061


Savall presents a John Coprario who is fine composer with a distinctive voice. Fine because the fantasias especially show an attractive complexity. And distinctive because the articulation is so incisive - the result is not at all lyrical, more like short snatches of music blown in on the wind. It makes me think of recordings that Savall was making thirty years after - like his second Tobias Hume CD. It's a style of viol playing I associate most with Pandolfo (who didn't participate in the recording), a style I like a lot. Rare music, this.


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## Mandryka

View attachment 103062


If anyone's looking for a single compilation CD of 17th century English viol consort music, then I doubt you could do better than this one from the Kuijken Bros and Robert Kohnen. The style is balanced, refined, expressive and supple and sometimes "psychological" (I'm thinking of the Matthew Locke fantazias, which show him to be of the same ilk as Tobias Hume.) They communicate their passion for the music somehow. They're clearly playing as a team and responding and listening. The selection is interesting and unusual - an attractive mixture of variations, fantasies, dances - and that makes the whole recording a good listening experience. The sound quality is excellent.


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## Mandryka

http://c3.cduniverse.ws/resized/250x500/music/459/8595459.jpg

Eureka! Found a recording of Lawes's consorts with organ which makes the music sound a bit more interesting. Prefer this one by Music's Recreation to Phantasm and Fretwork in the same pieces.

I got to find out about Music's Recreation when I found a fabulous recording of a Rameau Suite on Tidal.


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## Mandryka

Concordia, Lawes. The blend they make allows each instrument to show a strong character. Their approach to the polyphony helps in this respect too, because it's staggered to produce complex textures. All this makes the music sound not so lyrical, and from my perspective it greatly benefits from that. They tend to be inclined towards reflective / introspective performances rather than lively ones, again something which I very much like, one of the recordings which has helped me to see that Lawes may deserve his reputation after all. (It's taken a long time for me to fall in love with any music by Lawes, but that's been a question of finding a sympathetic approach I think.)


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## Mandryka

Philippe Pierlot & Co. play English music for little ensembles with viols: Jenkins, Locke, Simpson and a smattering of Lawes and Coperario. With this recording we are transported to a drawing room in Buckingham Palace, or somewhere like that. This is a recording fit for a king. It is exquisite playing, sensual, refined and polished, balanced and sane, noble. They play responsively, with a palpable sense of involvement and pleasure. Above all it is very British: phlegmatic.

Amazingly well recorded.


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## Ingélou

Thanks for your posts, Mandryka - it's nice to hear your opinion, though I'm a bit puzzled by your statements about Corelli - apologies if I'm misreading them - since both John Ward and William Lawes died before Corelli was born, in 1653. (So how can John Ward be 'less influenced' than Lawes by a galant idea which 'may well have come from Corelli'? ) 

It strikes me that you may have misunderstood the point of what I'm doing - I'm simply sampling the names on the Wiki list, and giving my personal opinion. I'm doing it because I want to have a mental and aural map of the baroque era - merely for self-education. I have always liked the sound of baroque music, but did not start to listen to it until five years ago, so there's a lot of self-educating to do! 

But I'm not out to prove anything, and it really is a matter of taste. So you are at liberty to like or loathe William Lawes as you choose, and so am I. 

:tiphat: I do appreciate any posts on this thread that are about baroque music, especially if they are encouraging. My project is just a way of keeping the ball rolling, but I hope this thread will be a sort of weekly magazine for baroque music which will keep a place for it on Talk Classical. 

I hope to be able to track down some of the recordings you mention later on - I haven't the time or the money to do so at present.


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## Ingélou

Yesterday I listened to our new cd, PHANTASM - William Lawes Consorts to the Organ.










At first I felt I liked and admired it rather than loved it, as the first few pieces were beautifully layered as far as harmonies and melodies were concerned but rather unvarying in tone and pace, with a sad and wistful feeling. I switched off a little - though I did find the music very calming and conducive to musing and meditation with a small 'm'.

About halfway through, the music seemed to become more vibrant and original with some sudden changes of tempo and dramatic dissonances that really grabbed my attention. The solo organ irruptions were compelling.

So all in all, I did enjoy and appreciate the cd, am glad that we bought it, and am still passionately in love with lovely tragic William Lawes.


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## Mandryka

Ingélou said:


> Yesterday I listened to our new cd, PHANTASM - William Lawes Consorts to the Organ.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At first I felt I liked and admired it rather than loved it, as the first few pieces were beautifully layered as far as harmonies and melodies were concerned but rather unvarying in tone and pace, with a sad and wistful feeling. I switched off a little - though I did find the music very calming and conducive to musing and meditation with a small 'm'.
> 
> About halfway through, the music seemed to become more vibrant and original with some sudden changes of tempo and dramatic dissonances that really grabbed my attention. The solo organ irruptions were compelling.
> 
> So all in all, I did enjoy and appreciate the cd, am glad that we bought it, and am still passionately in love with lovely tragic William Lawes.


Why tragic?

That phantasm CD is rather genteel.


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## Ingélou

Mandryka said:


> *Why tragic? *


Because he died aged only 43, '"casually shot" by a Parliamentarian in the rout of the Royalists at Rowton Heath, near Chester, on 24 September 1645'. The King had tried to keep him in the rear and out of danger, and when he heard of William Lawes' death was very upset, even though he'd also lost a cousin on that day.

The man had so much talent, and it's tragic that he had no further time to develop it.


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## Mandryka

Ingélou said:


> Because he died aged only 43, '"casually shot" by a Parliamentarian in the rout of the Royalists at Rowton Heath, near Chester, on 24 September 1645'. The King had tried to keep him in the rear and out of danger, and when he heard of William Lawes' death was very upset, even though he'd also lost a cousin on that day.


I didn't know that,


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## Ingélou

I listened to another of our new William Lawes cds last night:
*William Lawes - Consort Music for Viols, Lutes & Theorbos - Royal Consorts - Duets for Lute - Divisions on a Pavan - by Timothy Roberts, Organ; Jacob Heringman & David Miller Lute & Theorbo; Rose Consort of Viols. 
*









*Out of the three William Lawes cds we own, this is now my favourite.

The viols, lutes & theorbos give such a rich layered texture of string sounds.

The music evolves in a vital, sometimes surprising, and always engaging interplay of themes and instruments. The metaphor that occurred to me was of a spirited horse, sometimes capering and curveting, sometimes cantering on, but always eloquently beautiful.

The music is played with elegance and elan, and I look forward to listening to this cd again. 
*

On a note of personal reminiscence, Jacob Heringman and his wife Susanna Pell, a viol player, were tutors at the Historically Informed Summer School that we attended at Scarborough in 2016. They are a warm, beautiful and gifted couple with two delightful & courteous daughters. I hope that if we do manage to move north to York, we will be able to come across them again and listen to them perform.

We can't afford - moneywise or spacewise - to buy any more William Lawes cds at present, so I will leave this delightful staging post of my Baroque Listening Project.

What I find in William Lawes' music above all is a sort of *emotional intelligence*. 
It is intricately crafted and yet always sounds as if it is spontaneously developing. It is alive, sometimes surprising, and always expressive. 
When I listen to William Lawes, I muse - I think - I feel - I wonder - about life & time & meaning.


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## Ingélou

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Baroque_composers
Here it is again - the *Wiki List of Baroque Composers* that I've made it my project on this thread to listen to and comment on.

The next on the list is *Antonio Bertali*, but before I proceed, I will try to see what I can find on YouTube etc of *Henry Lawes*, William's brother, and also *John Jenkins* and *John Ward*.

None of them seem to have Composer Guest Books at present. I hope my spouse, Taggart, will remedy the situation in the next week or so.

In some instances, I expect that I won't be able to find much music belonging to the names on the list, but even a little will help me to form a mind-map of baroque music, and my posting is, of course, just a personal response.

I hope that other people will post here about their experiences with baroque music and that the thread will be an ongoing journal for TC listeners to the baroque, and generally live up to its name:

*For Love of the Baroque...*

My thanks to everyone who has posted here so far. :tiphat:


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## classical yorkist

I must confess I have never heard of this Bertali character. I'll need to source some of his music and have a listen as well.


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## Ingélou

A YouTube video of 17th century English music - 
*Dunedin Consort - Ward, Weelkes, Henry Lawes & Gibbons (Festival Oude Muziek Utrecht 2015):*
*Henry Lawes (1595-1662)*: Pavan
*John Ward (1590-1638)*: No object dearer
John Ward: Weep forth your tears
*Orlando Gibbons (1583-1625)*: Fantasia
*Thomas Weelkes 1576 - 1623)*: O Jonathan, woe is me
Thomas Weelkes: When David heard






The cusp of Renaissance & Baroque. 
Thoughtful & pleasant background music - performed a little too carefully & reverently. 
Nice enough, though.


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## Mandryka

This is L'Acheron playing a bit of Gibbons. They've just invested in the imaginative and radical reconstruction of an authentic set of English viols. L'Acheron's presupposition is that the music is rather profound. In the essay that he wrote on Gibbons François Joubert-Caillet claimed that the music is religious in inspiration, it's not obvious to me what he means. I really don't know whether I love what they do or hate it, but it makes you think. Anyway I thought I'd post it here to see if anyone has any responses






Gibbons is an interesting composer and I think quite challenging.


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## Ingélou

I don't know much about Gibbons so can't comment on why the music might be religious in inspiration. But thanks for posting - I enjoyed listening, and found the music pleasantly melancholic. I can't listen to acres and acres of viols (on their own), but in a courtyard garden, they are quietly seductive.


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## classical yorkist

I did find some Bertali in my collection so I had a listen this morning. I wasn't overly impressed, it just seemed like fairly standard early Italian Baroque. It was the Missa Redemptoris I listened to.


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## Ingélou

A nice little find on YouTube - proclaims itself ' Musique baroque anglaise/ pieces/ extraits et...' and includes music by John Dowland, John Bull, John Jenkins, Henry Lawes, William Lawes, Henry Purcell, G. F. Handel & Sir William Harris - also Johann Christoph Pepusch's Concertos for London, which looks like a very nice listen:






For England's sake, I am glad we attracted European musicians like Geminiani, Handel & Pepusch - I think they should definitely *count*.


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## Ingélou

My report back on Henry Lawes will be delayed - problems with the TC security system.
I can't include YouTube links - so will leave till the site is back to its old self.

Taggart has discovered that it's trying to put lots of links up at the same time that does the damage so I'll stick to ones and twos.


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## Ingélou

For my listening project - reporting back on Henry Lawes.
Here's the Composer Guest Book:
https://www.talkclassical.com/55194-henry-lawes-1559-1662-a.html#post1441342


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## Ingélou

I found a few bits and pieces, mainly songs, on YouTube, and also sampled a couple of Hyperion mp3s. I was very tempted to buy one of them, but Taggart wasn't as keen, and we do need to save the pennies for our proposed house move later this year.

Here's what I tried, with the notes I made at the time:




Thirteen songs sung in 1957 by the Welsh contralto Helen Watts.
Crackly & dated rendition, but Helen Watts' voice is beautiful and the songs are beautiful too - moving, with the feeling expressed through shifts of key etc. I found a Wiki quote about Helen Watts, which I agreed with: 'In 1969, her voice was described by a critic as "not particularly large, but the general purity and warmth of its tone gives it a direct, communicative power. And the singer uses it with taste and imagination."'

Go Lovely Rose - 'live and unedited':




This is a lovely song - though maybe because of the recording quality, the soprano's voice is sometimes a bit piercing.


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## Ingélou

Henry Lawes' Five Songs for John Milton's masque, Comus -




Singer Stephanie Friedman; harpsichordist Philip Brett.
There's a long talk introduction on this. I read the comments on YouTube which complained both about the lacklustre viol playing and the singer's unsuitable vibrato. I can see the point of both complaints. The voice certainly seems Victorian parlour in its wobbliness. But the tunes are good - will have to explore. Maybe I should reread Comus!
I particularly like the tune of 'Back, shepherd, back!' - what I could hear of it through the wobbles.

O Absolon My Son:




A gentle arrangement - pretty and poignant


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## Ingélou

Baker Varley Duo - Delicate Beauty




Another snippet - very nice.

I listened to the extracts on this mp3, Hyperion, The Consort of Musicke, 'Sitting by the Streams' -
https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDA66135
Charming songs sung very prettily with lovely instrumental arrangements.
This was the one that I asked Taggart to get, before recalling him with his hand ready to click - he liked it but not all that much, and we don't have money or space to spare. Maybe once I've got to York I'll buy this cd.

I also listened to the extracts on this mp3:
Lawes & Lawes: Songs
Robin Blaze (countertenor), Elizabeth Kenny (theorbo) - 
Elegantly performed, but a bit sameish.

So my verdict on *Henry Lawes*? 
Beautiful songs that engage the interest. 
There are few baroque composers I dislike - can't think of any at present - but Henry Lawes will always be a minor interest. 
It's William and his instrumental music that I really love.

Now to listen to John Jenkins and John Ward before getting back to the Wiki list.


----------



## Ingélou

As I suspected, there are only a few snippets from *John Jenkins* available on YouTube, though I remember when there were more, a few years ago, when I did make an effort to listen to him. 
https://www.talkclassical.com/55206-john-jenkins-1592-1678-a.html#post1441937
Taggart has done a Composer Guestbook, and apparently there are two cds of Jenkins' music available (Hesperion XX & The Rose Consort of Viols) that I may consider once we're allowed to expand our cd collection again.

The snippets on YouTube that I listened to were:
1. L'Achéron - John Jenkins, Fantasia a 6 in c
It was beautifully layered & meditative, and I agreed with one of the comments under the video:
'John Jenkins is buried at St. Peter's church Kimberley, Norfolk just six miles from my doorstep. For myself, the spiritual zeitgeist of Dr. Browne of Norwich is perfectly evoked in Fantasias such as this gorgeous c minor one, which Browne himself may well have heard Jenkins play as a guest of his friend Sir Philip Wodehouse.'

2. ﻿John Jenkins (1592-1678) Pavan for 2 bass viols (Julia Hodgson & Susanna Pell viol players)
I found this lovely & lyrical.

3. John Jenkins: "For two Divisions Viols to a A Ground" (1592 - 1678)
from a cd called 'Strike the Viol' - 
Philippe Pierlot, bass viol
Rainer Zipperling, bass viol
Giovana Pessi, harp

Lovely evocative music.

4. Jenkins - Fantasia-Suite in A Minor
Fantasia-suite for two violins, two violas da gamba, and basso continuo in A minor
a. Fantasia b. [Almain] c. Corant
Performed by Masques
Directed by Olivier Fortin

I found this sprightly and appealing.

5. J. Jenkins-Fantasy in F major a 3 to the organ & for a treble and a bass






I loved this - sprigged & spirited!

6. from an mp3 free download - Pavan in e minor by Fretwork
Pungently regal & melancholy.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I do like John Jenkins, but sometimes he seems a bit staid and/or samey.

In the Guestbook, Taggart says (he used All Music dot com as his source) that Jenkins' pieces 
'exhibit exceptional control of form and effect, and a fine melodic sensibility.'

There's not enough to go on in YouTube, but by all accounts Jenkins was a very nice easygoing person and that's the way also that his music strikes me - like an amiable carthorse, a good-looking Dobbin who only sometimes breaks into a frisk. 
(And when he does - it's magnificent!)

But that's okay, because I *love* carthorses - my favourite breed of horse is the Suffolk Punch.


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## Mandryka

It's interesting that the viol discussion has focussed on British music. Tobias Hume and Christopher Tye are probably my favourite Brits in this genre, with an honourable mention for Henry Purcell, Orlando Gibbons and John Dowland. However the viol music which has appealed the most to me is probably by the German composer Dietrich Stoeffken. French music is not without its merits, though I'm not much interested in Forqueray and even less so Marais, I suspect there are excellent things in Ste Colombe (père, I've never explored fils.) Italian and Spanish remain slightly mysterious, what little I've heard has been not without interest. 

There's a manuscript called The Manchester Viol Book. Solo viol music. It's been recorded for Naxos. I find it fascinating.

Baroque violin and cello music can sound fine on viol, and where the performer is inspired the results can be memorable.

Not all viols are the same. The Lyra Viol was designed for playing contrapuntal music, I wonder if J S Bach's Cello Suites were inspired by composers who wrote solo music for it, like Stoeffken.


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## Taggart

Mandryka said:


> It's interesting that the viol discussion has focussed on British music. Tobias Hume and Christopher Tye are probably my favourite Brits in this genre, with an honourable mention for Henry Purcell, Orlando Gibbons and John Dowland. However the viol music which has appealed the most to me is probably by the German composer Dietrich Stoeffken.


Ironically, your favourite Dietrich Stoeffken (1600 - 1673) is tinged with Englishness. He was a viol player in the service of Queen Henrietta Maria 1629-35. Musician in Ordinary in the Private Musick, 1635-1642. Left England in 1642 and returned to be Musician in Ordinary 1660-73. There is some dispute as to whether he was in fact German (at least according to HOASM).


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## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> I did find some Bertali in my collection so I had a listen this morning. I wasn't overly impressed, it just seemed like fairly standard early Italian Baroque. It was the Missa Redemptoris I listened to.


You're right - but then early Italian Baroque is rather nice.
This is gorgeous - well, I think so. 

(Bertali - Sonata a 6 in D Minor)






PS - Guess what! Bertali hasn't got a composer guestbook. Somebody I know well is going to have to make one.


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## Ingélou

Mandryka said:


> It's interesting that the viol discussion has focussed on British music. Tobias Hume and Christopher Tye are probably my favourite Brits in this genre, with an honourable mention for Henry Purcell, Orlando Gibbons and John Dowland. However the viol music which has appealed the most to me is probably by the German composer Dietrich Stoeffken. French music is not without its merits, though I'm not much interested in Forqueray and even less so Marais, I suspect there are excellent things in Ste Colombe (père, I've never explored fils.) Italian and Spanish remain slightly mysterious, what little I've heard has been not without interest.
> 
> There's a manuscript called The Manchester Viol Book. Solo viol music. It's been recorded for Naxos. I find it fascinating.
> 
> Baroque violin and cello music can sound fine on viol, and where the performer is inspired the results can be memorable.
> 
> Not all viols are the same. The Lyra Viol was designed for playing contrapuntal music, I wonder if J S Bach's Cello Suites were inspired by composers who wrote solo music for it, like Stoeffken.


The viol discussion has concentrated on English composers because I'd reached William Lawes on the Wiki list and you mentioned John Jenkins & John Ward. 
However, I do like Marin Marais, and St Colombe too after seeing Tous les Matins du Monde, a ridiculous film in our view, but the music absolutely gorgeous. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tous_les_Matins_du_Monde

Thank you for mentioning Dietrich Stoeffken, of whom I'd never heard. I must give him a listen too, then.


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## Ingélou

*John Ward (1590-1638)*
Not much is known about him, apparently:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ward_(composer)

I listened to seven pieces available on YT from this heading.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsfi79TDu67DzKT3Yt7R2cw

These were:
1. *Duet for 2 viols* - _a pleasant sedate sound_.

2. *Fantasia for 4 viols - Parthenia Viol Consort.*
_Prettily cantering music._

3. *The Dunedin Consort: madrigal by John Ward 'No object dearer'*
and 4. *'Weep forth your tears'. *
_These had lovely harmonies and were well sung but didn't really move me. _

5. *John Ward Fantasies 1 & 3 by Phantasm*.
_Very pleasant_.

6. *John Ward** - Paris Fantasia no. 1 (Fantasia 6) viols and organ; Ernst Stolz Early Music*.
_This had a beautiful texture. I loved the interplay of sounds, the organ and viols_.

7. *'Come Sable Night', a John Ward madrigal sung by the Pittsburgh Camerata*. 
A well-crafted specimen nicely sung, but I have decided that I'm not a great madrigal fan. 
_(Mea culpa. )_

My personal response to John Ward, then? 
I enjoyed listening to him, and found him *pleasantly chewy* - with lovely harmonising layers of instruments & voices - but rather sombre & sedate overall.

I'd be happy to listen to him as part of a concert programme but won't be making a great effort to seek him out again.

Now on to Bertali - well, not now, actually, as we need to paint the kitchen.


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## DeepR

Hello, any recommendations for fast tempo, energetic baroque? 
Similar to these examples by Charles Avison based on D. Scarlatti's keyboard sonata's:

Allegro Spiritoso at 1:28 and Allegro at 7:59





Con Furia at 2:36





This music is very easy to love.


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## Ingélou

I don't know about 'similar' but when it comes to energetic baroque, I remembered I liked a YouTube video by violinist John Holloway - couldn't remember what it was - found it, but it had been removed for copyright reasons. This version, by the Freiburger Barockorchester, isn't as fabulous or as energetic but it's still nice and I hope you like it:






Ironically, it turned out to be a piece by a composer that I'm next on to - Ciaccona in C by Antonio Bertali.

:tiphat: Thanks for posting the Avison - we hear this composer's versions fairly regularly as our local Baroque Ensemble, Norwich Baroque, is prone to putting them on programmes. The YouTube videos you've put up sound gorgeous and quite carried me away!

I think you're right - they *are* 'very easy to love'. 

I like 'energetic baroque' and will keep an ear out - also looking forward to suggestions by others.


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## Mandryka

I started to listen today to Wieland Kuijken and Gustav Leonhardt playing the Bach Gamba Sonatas. I'd forgotten how much I like the intense seriousness of Wieland Kuijken -- I know his Bach most well in his recording of the cello suites, and these accompanied suites have something of the same flavour, at least in the viol part. He did in fact record the gamba sonatas with Piet Kuijken, my probably superficial impression is that the recording there is more mainstream -- the one with Leonhardt is quite a challenge -- in a good way I'd say. 

Then I thought I'd dip into some other things -- the second volume of music by Ste. Colombe (père) with Jordi Savall, and English viol music on Accent with Sigiswald Kuijken and Robert Kohnen. All of them are graced with the serious intensity which pleases me so much. I have a very good memory of some solo viol music on Accent, I'll dig it out soon!

Anyway I just wanted to make a little post in praise of the art of Wieland Kuijken.


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## Dirge

G. F. HANDEL: _Messiah_ (1741/various later revisions & versions)
libretto by Charles Jennens
performing edition by Basil Lam
Harwood (soprano), Baker (mezzo-soprano), Esswood (alto), Tear (tenor), Herincx (bass)
Mackerras/ECO & Ambrosian Singers [EMI '66]

chorus: 10 sopranos, 10 altos (male & female), 8 tenors & 10 basses
orchestra: 8-7-4-4-3 (string section), 6 oboes, 4 bassoons, plus (in 3 numbers) 2 trumpets, timpani & 2 additional oboes

This performance is historically informed circa 1966: the Lam edition attempts to resurrect period practice/style to the best of musicologist Basil Lam's understanding and the work is "performed in a manner approximating as nearly as possible to that of Handel's own time." Aside from paring down forces to Baroque levels (an educated guess based on Lam's research into the many and varied performances held in Handel's day), Lam assists modern performers not savvy in Baroque ornamentation/embellishment practices by adding some "improvised" ornamentation to the vocal and instrumental parts, but he leaves it to the soloists to improvise cadenzas and some additional decorations to the melodic line. As such, Mackerras encourages his singers to improvise (to an extent) "in accordance with the practice of Handel's day"-whether they provide their own cadenzas, I don't know.

In any event, the performance was controversial in its day and remains so, as critics find many of Lam's composed improvisations to be heavy handed or unstylish/dated or less than spontaneous sounding in performance. Such criticisms are valid, but I can't say that Lam's stylistic _faux pas_ bother me much in context of such a spirited and engaging overall performance; besides, I don't know the work (and its many and varied versions and editions) well enough to know which instances of unstylishness are the performers' and which are Lam's and which are Handel's. What's more, every _Messiah_ performance that I've heard is peppered with dubious stylistic decisions that annoy me as much or more than anything found here. So while the performance has its problems and more than its share of detractors, I like it.

While not every individual contributions (inasmuch as one can consider them apart from the whole) is entirely to my taste/liking, the aggregate is hard for me to resist, as the general approach and spirit of the music-making is right up my alley: there's a sweeping sense of purpose and occasion that drives/motivates the proceedings and a compelling dramatic narrative that relates and ties everything together-nothing casual or routine here. For all that, Mackerras surely deserves the lion's share of the credit. By comparison, the famous Davis/LSO account on Philips, which was released only a month or so before this one, sounds a bit conventional and conservative and relaxed if more refined and tonally beautiful. I have nothing against Davis/LSO, mind you, as it was my go-to _Messiah_ recording for many years, but Davis doesn't have the glint in his eye and fire in his belly that Mackerras does. That said, the Davis/LSO set has been the critics' darling and a perpetual best seller since its release, while the Mackerras/ECO set has been mostly out of print and hard to find, so my taste clearly doesn't reflect that of the _Messiah_-buying public at large.

Mackerras has a very interesting array of soloists to hand, including a countertenor-a rare commodity in the mid '60s. Mackerras was lucky enough to have Paul Esswood, who was then at the beginning of his career. (If Wikipedia is to be believed, Esswood's first professional gig was singing _Messiah_ under Mackerras only a year prior to the making of this recording.) Esswood is an excellent alto counterpart to mezzo Janet Baker, even sounding a bit like her in a creepy countertenor sort of way-I don't know about you, but I wouldn't let my daughter date a countertenor-and between them they dispatch the alto/mezzo numbers as well as I've heard on the whole. Baker is her usual self-recommending self, which is high praise indeed; her account of "He was despised" is goosebump-inducingly sublime.

Elizabeth Harwood is an excellent soprano whose singing comes across as heartfelt and personable yet noble in a quintessentially English way that I tend to associate with an earlier generation of singers. Her tone isn't as beautifully rounded and lustrous as some, and her vibrato is a bit too conspicuous at times, but her characterization and narration/story telling is as believable and compelling as anyone's.

True to form, Robert Tear sounds like Peter Pears on steroids: his voice is more muscular and open, less strangulated and pinched/nasal, his manner is more rugged and less fastidious, and there's a certain stentorian quality about his delivery that I don't associate with Pears, but his enunciation, accent, and phrasing are eerily similar. All this makes Tear the favorite English tenor (despite being Welsh) of lorry drivers, lumberjacks, and bawdy dames the world over, but listeners with delicate constitutions may not survive the experience. I rather like Tear, especially in his duets with Esswood, which have an ancient/archaic quality that remind me of the best of the Deller Consort's Vanguard recordings from the '50s, but he's a different cat (as my beatnik friends are wont to say) and will rub many listeners the wrong way.

Raimund Herincx is a rock-solid bass and eloquent orator who gives a strong, forthright performance that is powerful and musically satisfying if not as flexible and imaginative as some. Like Harwood, Herincx is a believable and compelling narrator/storyteller who comes across as if he's addressing you directly.

The English Chamber Orchestra and the Ambrosian Singers are both in fine fettle, alertly responding to Mackerras's direction with a compelling combination of proficiency and focused energy and enthusiasm that generates tremendous excitement in the big choruses-the account of the famous "Hallelujah!" chorus is as intense and dramatic as they come. The orchestra and its soloists also provide extremely deft and sympathetic support/accompaniment to the quieter arias, many of which possess a finespun atmosphere of hushed intensity that is quite captivating. The populations of both the orchestra and the choir sound just about ideal to me: numerous enough to provide ample weight and "oomph" for the big choruses yet spare enough to remain nimbly responsive and transparent. Lam and/or Mackerras also do an excellent job of varying the forces to fit the music at hand. Whatever you think of Lam's embellishments to the score, he does a great job of sizing and balancing the performing forces, as the results here are beautifully weighted and proportioned.

All in all, the performance has more than its share of quirks and biases-it's far from being a neutral, middle-of-the-road performance-but the bulk of its quirks and biases are my quirks and biases, so I probably like it far more than most listeners will. Besides, there could hardly be less agreement as to what makes for a good _Messiah_ performance, especially as regards vocal soloists. If you can get past Lam's embellishments and Tear's solos, the next big hurdle for most listeners will likely be the sheer focus and intensity of the performance-a huge plus for me, but the mainstream seems to favor a more relaxed approach so far as I can tell (which ain't far).

The recorded sound is pretty good by 1966 standards, with a good balance between choir and orchestra and a fair sense of space and depth to the soundstage. The vocal soloists are a degree too prominently balanced and the sound isn't especially clean and transparent, but detail comes through well enough and the overall frequency balance is easy on the ear if a touch dull. So far as I know, the complete recording is available on CD only via a 1989 EMI France release (which I have), though the same remastering is available as an over-priced Warner MP3 or FLAC download via various Web vendors. Here's a YouTube playlist of the complete recording:


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## Ingélou

I enjoyed reading that, @Dirge :tiphat:, (what fab descriptions of the different voices) - but oh dear - I've always been drawn to Welsh singers. 
Does that make me a 'bawdy dame'?


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## Ingélou

It isn't Purcell's turn yet in my listening project, but look what I found on YouTube - Complete Incidental music from Purcell's Abdelazar by Christopher Hogwood.






It's gorgeous. 
Purcell is somewhat Lullyesque - I realise that I like both because they're simpler and stronger melodically than a lot of Baroque Music, and with sturdy dancey rhythms. Stirring - spirited - stately and passionate by turns. 
Certified *Entirely Suitable for Folkies*.


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## Dirge

Ingélou said:


> I enjoyed reading that, @Dirge :tiphat:, (what fab descriptions of the different voices) - but oh dear - I've always been drawn to Welsh singers.
> Does that make me a 'bawdy dame'?


Only if you're not a lorry driver or a lumberjack.


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## Ingélou

*Antonio Bertali 1605 - 1669*:

I've just finished sampling this latest name on my project of listening to all the composers on the Wiki Baroque List. Taggart did a composer guestbook for him, which is here:
Antonio Bertali (1605 - 1669)

There are a few bits and pieces on YouTube - mainly his *Ciaccone*, which is gorgeous, and justly popular. My favourite was the groovy version from the HIP violinist John Holloway, but that's disappeared from YT; however, I liked all the versions I mention in the Guestbook, and particularly Rachel Podger's. There's something about the tone of her violin that catches your heart, and when the melody soars, my spirit does too.

A 42 minute video of Bertali's oratorio *La Strage Degl'innocenti* was available on YouTube, and I enjoyed it. My notes read: *Beautiful voices with harpsichord accompaniment. Songs, some rousing, some poignant. A lovely listen - just Bertali's hard luck that he was born in an era of such prolific good music & can be easily overlooked.*

Some pieces by Bertali formed part of a concert recital by Concerto Palatino at the Festival Oude Muziek, Utrecht, 
The first items, from the *Missa Redemptoris*, I found elegant and a little dreary - as a religious work, it left me cold. The voices sounded a bit operatic and 'fruity'. Then there were some lovely lyrical strings, then from 24.16 - a very nice song, a fab bass voice with instrumental accompaniment, Bertali - *Omnes Sancti Angeli a basso solo con 3 instrumenti*; this was succeeded by Bertali, 'Sonata a 6'. Lovely music, to about 35.00, after which came a piece by another composer.

I next listened to some sonatas - 



 - from a published work, *Prothimia Suavissima*. The trouble is that the authorship of the sonatas in this book is disputed - the YouTube notes say:
*There is some measure of controversy as to who composed the 12 sonatas in this volume; in 1671, composer Samuel Capricornus printed a collection entitled -Continuation der neuen wohl angestimten Taffelmusic, which duplicates six of these sonatas exactly, raising the issue of whether Capricornus -- a student and follower of Bertali -- "borrowed" these six sonatas from his then-departed master for his own publication or that the publisher might have used the Capricornus works to fill out a more commercially viable Bertali print. However, in listening one notes absolute unanimity of style between all 12 sonatas, and it is a solidly persuasive, elegant style as well. Compared to Biber, Bertali is not nearly as weird or experimental, but there are exploratory harmonic devices in use and plenty of the elements of surprise present for those already attuned to the early Baroque.*

However, it's very enjoyable music - spirited, with a beautiful blend of instruments.
I listened to some other YouTube sonatas from this collection on YouTube and found them too 'lovely and sprightly'.

I am not posting all the links as TC now doesn't like too many - something to do with the Firewall and security - so will post the remainder of my comments on a separate post below.


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## Ingélou

My absolute favourite of all the Bertali pieces I listened to was his Missa Resurrectionis, by Ilya Poletaev (organ); Yale Schola Cantorum; Simon Carrington.
This was glorious - inspiring music of regal beauty with crescendoing choruses. I think if/when we manage to move, I might search down and buy this cd.






Then this piece, from a concert called 'Guts & Glory', the Sonata Sublationis. 
This was pate de foie gras to the sound of trumpets. The unequal temperament and natural trumpets gave it a strangely attractive dissonant quality.






And finally, I listened to Bertali's version of the ubiquitous Folia, a tune which never goes wrong. This one develops into a song Regina Coeli sung by a counter-tenor. It's very attractive.






So, much of what Bertali wrote has been lost, quite a lot of it has been attributed by some scholars to other composers, and not a lot of it was available to me on YouTube.
But still, I tried. 
And what did I think of my sampling of Bertali?
I thought: *Thumbs up, and he's well worth a listen. *


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## Mandryka

Ingélou said:


> It isn't Purcell's turn yet in my listening project, but look what I found on YouTube - Complete Incidental music from Purcell's Abdelazar by Christopher Hogwood.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's gorgeous.
> Purcell is somewhat Lullyesque - I realise that I like both because they're simpler and stronger melodically than a lot of Baroque Music, and with sturdy dancey rhythms. Stirring - spirited - stately and passionate by turns.
> Certified *Entirely Suitable for Folkies*.


I thought this Purcell was utterly uninteresting.


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## Ingélou

Mandryka said:


> I thought this Purcell was utterly uninteresting.


Your privilege. We obviously have very different tastes, as I only mildly enjoyed your recommended John Ward. 
But what of it? How boring it would be if we all liked the same things. 
Live long and prosper! 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So, as I was saying, I enjoyed listening to *Bertali* (see above, posts 416 and 417, and now the next on the list is *Giacomo Carissimi*:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=G...mi&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


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## Taggart

Giacomo Carissimi doesn't have a guest book. I'll have to remedy that. There's a problem updating the index though, so I'll post the link here.


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## Marinera

Favorite Carissimi composition sung by Maria Cristina Kiehr. I enjoy listening to lamentations especially when sung by Kiehr, so perhaps it won't be to everyone's taste, but to me it sounds heavenly


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## Ingélou

Oh dear and ouch!  - I had never heard of Carissimi, but according to Wiki - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giacomo_Carissimi - 
*Giacomo Carissimi (baptized 18 April 1605 - 12 January 1674) was an Italian composer and music teacher. He is one of the most celebrated masters of the early Baroque or, more accurately, the Roman School of music. Carissimi established the characteristic features of the Latin oratorio and was a prolific composer of motets and cantatas. He was highly influential in musical developments in north European countries through his pupils and the wide dissemination of his music.*

Anyway, before I read this, I googled him and found a YouTube clip of nearly half an hour, 
*Giacomo Carissimi (1605-1674) - Baltazar oratorio
Chamber Choir of the Liszt Ferenc Academy of Music
Corelli Chamber Orchestra
Conducted by Párkai István
1984 - Hungaroton*

and it's really beautiful. Wonderful voices and choruses - lyrical instrumental accompaniments.

*Carissimi* seems like a very good staging post on my Baroque Listening Project, with beautiful landscaped gardens and an elegant teahouse. 
I mean to enjoy him.


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## Ingélou

Marinera said:


> Favorite Carissimi composition sung by Maria Cristina Kiehr. I enjoy listening to lamentations especially when sung by Kiehr, so perhaps it won't be to everyone's taste, but to me it sounds heavenly


Thanks, Marinera - I was busy posting so didn't see this recommendation. It looks lovely. I will certainly get on to this one next. :tiphat:


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## Marinera

I've been listening to Carissimi - motets of Arion Romanus on spotify - Ensemble Seicentonovecento - they are really really good


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## Taggart

Carissimi now has a guest book.


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## Ingélou

Marinera said:


> Favorite Carissimi composition sung by Maria Cristina Kiehr. I enjoy listening to lamentations especially when sung by Kiehr, so perhaps it won't be to everyone's taste, but to me it sounds heavenly


I have just listened to this - Giacomo Carissimi, Incipit Lamentatio Ieremiae Prophetae. 
It is indeed very beautiful. 
Maria Cristina Kiehr, the soprano, has a heavenly voice. :angel:
Thank you. :tiphat:


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## Marinera

I'm glad you liked it

I listen to them in noble solitude, because usually people tend to ask me if I have anything more cheerful.


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## Ingélou

I've reached *Carissimi* on the Wiki list of baroque composers.

Have just been listening on YouTube to 'Ten Motets' by Consortium Carissimi:






This is 'good music' and well sung - but it's just not my personal cup of tea.

Why?
Oh well -  - I like *tunes*.
These songs have fine sounding phrases and harmonies rather than melodic shape. 
To my peasant ear, there's a lot of quavering, though they are pretty and elegant. 
Motets seem too genteel for me - always havering about the point.
Apologies to Motet-Lovers everywhere...


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## Mandryka

Ingélou said:


> Motets seem too genteel for me - always havering about the point.


See if you like this motet by Jean Hanelle more


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## Ingélou

Mandryka said:


> See if you like this motet by Jean Hanelle more


The sound was beautiful at first, if still a bit quavery for me, but I found the talking in the middle of it rather distracting.

Towards the end, the harmonies seemed a bit dischordant. Aurally I have the equivalent of a sweet tooth & to somebody properly attuned, maybe the arrangement sounds satisfyingly astringent?

Alas, it's probably a case of 'pearls before swine', but thank you for suggesting it. :tiphat:


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## Ingélou

Giacomo *Carissimi* - "Beatus Vir" a 8 voci, on YouTube.






*Heavenly! * :angel::angel::angel::angel::angel:


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## Ingélou

Giacomo *Carissimi*: Vanitas Vanitatum. Tragicomedia - on YouTube. 
('An oratorio for 5 voices, 2 violins & continuo')






I can't find anything out about it, and don't know what it's about, though you can hear that it's 'tragicomic'. It does seem delightfully ironic that the theme of 'vanity of vanities' should be dealt with in such a vocally frivolous manner. 
It's very nice.


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## helenora

I was looking for some beautiful and interesting music to listen to this evening. Then I opened this thread and found what I was looking for. :angel:


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## Ingélou

Carissimi: Missa ''sciolto havean dall'alte sponde'' a 5 voci con ripieni e sinfonie (Le Isitutioni Harmoniche, Verona; Cristina Miatello, Lavinia Bertotti, Claudio Cavina, Sandro Naglia, Furio Zanasi; direttore Marco Longhinif)






For me the sound of most of this was celestial - especially the credo and thereafter, from 23.23. There were occasional bits not to my taste - flaunty jolly bits between male singers. But overall I loved this and found it sublimely beautiful.

Giacomo Carissimi - 'Jonas' (Historia Jonae)

Lovely - I enjoyed this.


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## Ingélou

I have now finished my sampling of *Giacomo Carissimi* on the Wiki list (see above, from post 421), and Taggart has made for him a Composer Guest Book.

I am not very fond of his motets - because I am not very fond of motets, I've decided.

Apart from that, I thought his music was elegant and often beautiful. I am pleased to have found out about him - a little. This is just wine-tasting, not connoisseurship!

The next person for me to try on the Wiki Baroque Composer List - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Baroque_composers - is 
*Johann Jakob Froberger*.

His wiki entry is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Jakob_Froberger

Any guidance on what to listen to of Froberger's would be very greatly appreciated. :tiphat:


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## Mandryka

I'm not normally a great fan of Purcell but for some reason I've enjoyed two things tremdously these past couple of weeks. One is the new recording of keyboard suites by Ewa Rzetecka-Niewiadomska, who plays them with an unusual degree of seriousness, sensitivity and elegance, which seems to suit my mood at the moment. 

The other is a very old recording but an outstanding one, which I've always loved partly because the music is so uncharacteristic of Purcell - the viol fantasias played by Ekkehard Weber's ensemble La Gamba.


----------



## Ingélou

Mandryka said:


> I'm not normally a great fan of Purcell but for some reason I've enjoyed two things tremdously these past couple of weeks. One is the new recording of keyboard suites by Ewa Rzetecka-Niewiadomska, who plays them with an unusual degree of seriousness, sensitivity and elegance, which seems to suit my mood at the moment.
> 
> The other is a very old recording but an outstanding one, which I've always loved partly because the music is so uncharacteristic of Purcell - the viol fantasias played by Ekkehard Weber's ensemble La Gamba.


Glad you found some Purcell to your taste. :tiphat:


----------



## Ingélou

The next person for me to try on the Wiki Baroque Composer List - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Baroque_composers - is 
*Johann Jakob Froberger*.

His wiki entry is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Jakob_Froberger

I do remember that our TC member Bulldog :tiphat: was fond of this composer, as he voted for him quite a bit in his Baroque Composers run-off. 
But - unless it's me - this composer doesn't seem to have a Composer Guestbook here, as yet*.

Any guidance on what to listen to of Froberger's would be very greatly appreciated. 
Thanks in advance. :tiphat:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Starting with something short - Capriccio, first on organ & then on harpsichord, Ernst Stolz Early Music -






Such a joyful sound, from each instrument - don't know which to choose! 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
* He has now!
Taggart has now started a composer guest book for Froberger; I hope members will post some interesting links and/or opinions on it. Thanks in advance!

https://www.talkclassical.com/55549-johann-jakob-froberger-1616-a.html#post1455132


----------



## Ingélou

I just listened to this YouTube video of Froberger: 'Johann Jakob Froberger Partitas FbWV 620 & 612, Sergio Vartolo'.






I liked it. It's at first and for the most part slow - plangent - speculative notes - reflective and re-echoing patterns - prompting meditation on time and mortality. No doubt you have to be in the mood.

What drew me to try this video were the comments left underneath it:

*A: (three years ago)* 
*I find this author exceedingly primitive, not to say dull. I wonder what can Louis Couperin have learned from him.﻿
*
*B: (two months ago)*
*Primitive??? It's the most sophisticated music we can listen to!!! Not only Couperin but Bach ( father & son) Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven , Fauré, Ravel, Debussy learned fron Froberger!! Hermann Hesse esteemed him greatly﻿.
*

Reader - what do you think?


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## Mandryka

I think the idea is that some of Louis Couperin's preludes are Italian style toccatas, and that it's most likely that he would have learned this way of making music from Froberger, who had worked with Frescobaldi before moving to Paris. And don't forget he wrote a piece "in imitation of Froberger"

(Did Titelouze know about Italian music, about Frescobaldi?)

The link from Froberger to Bach is, I think, connected with the idea of discretion.

I have no idea what, if anything, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven , Fauré, Ravel and Debussy learned from Froberger. I wonder what Hesse said about him, and indeed how he got to know about him.


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## Jacck

Johann Jakob Froberger The Strasbourg Manuscript


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## Mandryka

Here's the D major toccata BWV 912, the section with Froberger type of expression - the way the tempo changes -- starts at about 2,55






Here's a Froberger piece with this sort of expressive discretion about time and rhythm


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## Mandryka

And here's a Frescobaldi Toccata






And here's a Louis Couperin Prelude which may have some italianate style which he learned about through his contact with Froberger


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## premont

Mandryka said:


> Here's the D major toccata BWV 912, the section with Froberger type of expression - the way the tempo changes -- starts at about 2,55


Very imaginative and creative. Makes many others sound like they were played by the Stone Guest.

Thanks for posting it.



Mandryka said:


> Here's a Froberger piece with this sort of expressive discretion about time and rhythm


This makes me associate to Verlet.


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## Mandryka

premont said:


> Very imaginative and creative. Makes many others sound like they were played by the Stone Guest.
> 
> Thanks for posting it.
> 
> This makes me associate to Verlet.


I thought of Verlet too and I was also impressed by the toccata, the second fugue is really nice, and it appears very naturally out of the free music in the middle. There's some other stuff on yourube, including a lovely sarabande by D'Anglebert. Let's hope his career thrives.


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## classical yorkist

I've been visiting with my old friend Georg Telemann today and listening to a selection of his cantatas. Absolutely wonderful stuff, he's my 'go to' late Baroque composer for when I just want to enjoy listening to Baroque music. When I finish I always have a smile on my face. Bet he was a top bloke to go for a pint with.


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## Ingélou

We're busy trying to sell our house, and I'm laid low with an ear infection. So I think I'll suspend my listening project for a week or two.

My latest listening stage was Froberger, and I have appreciated everything I've listened to.
*Froberger is Fab. *

The artistic nude on the video makes me hesitate about posting it (laugh out softly), but here's the link:





It is called 'Johann Jakob Froberger Keyboard Works, Enrico Baiano'.

My notes on my listening experience - 
*Rippling glory, echoing and essaying, musing and responding to itself. Plangent meditation - intelligent rapture. Heavenly - the sort of music that transports me out of time*

Next, a YouTube video called
Johann Jakob Froberger Cembalo Works, Blandine Verlet






My personal response - 
*Experimenting with sounds & timbres & phrases, like thinking aloud. Beautiful.*

Now for a bit of string playing.
Johann Jacob Froberger : Toccata XX en la mineur par le Duo Coloquintes






I loved this one - *Lovely interweaving parts with depth and lyricism of sound. Beautiful & moving.*


----------



## Ingélou

I finished with Froberger's meditation on Death. Something we all think about from time to time, but not as pleasurably as this. *Striking music, with wonderful phrasal utterings and silences - like the thought process itself.*

YT video called 'J. J. Froberger - Tombeau fait à Paris sur la mort'






and this is called 'Froberger: Meditation faite sur ma mort future'






There are some interesting posts in the TC Froberger Composer Guestbook:

Johann Jakob Froberger (1616 - 1667)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I will certainly listen again to Froberger's music in the future.

And next (with a small delay) on to one whom I've already sampled and whose music I really love.
*Barbara Strozzi*

I did think Taggart or someone else had already set up a composer guestbook for her, but I can't find it. I must ask my spouse about it when he comes home from the weekly shop (done early because it's the Great Yarmouth Air Show this weekend).

Wishing you all a happy weekend.


----------



## Taggart

Ah -







- thought I'd done one but ... *only* thought it.


----------



## Jacck

what a coincidence, I discovered this composer two days ago (youtube offered it to me) and listened to this
Barbara Strozzi - Cappella Mediterranea
Great stuff !


----------



## classical yorkist

There's definitely a place for women in baroque composition and performance, much more than in most other periods I seem to think. Dell Guerre is another one worth checking out.


----------



## Mandryka

This is an old recording of some organ settings of plainchant by Jean Titelouze played by Xavier Darasse which I've been listening to






I have a question about the music - who were Titelouze's sources, the people who inspired him? Frescobaldi? It sounds like no earlier or contemporary music I know apart _maybe_ from people Hans Leo Hassler and Conrad Paumann.


----------



## Mandryka

classical yorkist said:


> . Dell Guerre is another one worth checking out.


You mean Elisabeth Jacquet de la Guerre?


----------



## classical yorkist

Mandryka said:


> You mean Elisabeth Jacquet de la Guerre?


Yes, didn't realise my auto-correct had mangled my original post


----------



## Mandryka

classical yorkist said:


> Yes, didn't realise my auto-correct had mangled my original post


I think the solo harpsichord is well worth exploring, there's a good recording from Blandine Verlet.


----------



## Mandryka

Another interesting performance of a Titelouze hymn, Ablizer live in 1988 at Saint-Guilhem-le-Désert, Frederic Munoz's youtube channel is rewarding.


----------



## Ingélou

Mandryka said:


> I think the solo harpsichord is well worth exploring, there's a good recording from Blandine Verlet.


I love Elisabeth Jacquet de la Guerre - I was alerted to her existence by another TC member, hreichgott. :tiphat:

As with Barbara Strozzi, I find reading about their lives as musical women in a world of male composers and limited education for women very engaging.

Someone ought to make a film about them. Strozzi in particular would be a touching and dramatic story.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

PS - There's very little made of Barbara Strozzi on Talk Classical. Here's a thread I put on at the time I joined TC - it got *one* reply. 
https://www.talkclassical.com/23864-barbara-strozzi-just-token.html?highlight=


----------



## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> I've been visiting with my old friend Georg Telemann today and listening to a selection of his cantatas. Absolutely wonderful stuff, he's my 'go to' late Baroque composer for when I just want to enjoy listening to Baroque music. When I finish I always have a smile on my face. Bet he was a top bloke to go for a pint with.


You are right. I don't know all that much about Telemann, but I've played some pieces by him when I was 'doing baroque' with my fiddle teacher (who plays baroque viola professionally), and they were always lovely. And when I've listened to some YouTube Telemann, *he never disappoints. *

Today it was this Viola Concerto, while I was making my bed. Fabulous!


----------



## Ingélou

Jacck said:


> what a coincidence, I discovered this composer two days ago (youtube offered it to me) and listened to this
> Barbara Strozzi - Cappella Mediterranea
> Great stuff !


Yes - and I had just been listening to this very YouTube video when you posted. 

This is what it contains:
*Barbara Strozzi, Virtuosissima Compositrice (1619-1677)
Cappella Mediterranea - Leonardo García Alarcón - 2009
Céline Sheen, Mariana Flores: soprani
Fabián Schofrin: controtenore
Jaime Caicompai, Andrés Silva: tenori
Matteo Bellotto: basso

0:00 - Hor che 'l ciel e la terra - Claudio Monteverdi, Madrigali guerrieri ed amorosi
8:24 - Lagrime mie - Barbara Strozzi, Diporti di Euterpe, op.7
17:22 - Priego ad amore - Barbara Strozzi, Il primo libro de madrigali, op.1
21:03 - Dispietata pietate - Sigismondo d'India, Il terzo libro de madrigali
23:41 - Che si può fare - Barbara Strozzi, arie e voce sola, op.8
35:52 - Silentio nocivo - Barbara Strozzi, Il primo libro de madrigali, op.1
40:43 - Vecchio amante - Barbara Strozzi, Il primo libro de madrigali, op.1
46:09 - L'usignuolo - Barbara Strozzi, Il primo libro de madrigali, op.1
50:32 - Sì ch'io vorrei morire - Claudio Monteverdi, Il quarto libro de madrigali
53:31 - L'amante modesto - Barbara Strozzi, Il primo libro de madrigali, op.1*

And these are the notes I'd written on it while listening:
*Utterly beautiful - strange, unearthly, passionate, stunning. 
O rare Barbara Strozzi. 
The settings and voices are incomparable.*

But I think 'Great Stuff' sums it up better!  :tiphat:

I managed to scrape together some more of BStrozzi's songs not on the list above, most of which I adored, and which I'll post in a day or two. I am now ready to go on to the next composer on the Wiki list, which is *Johann Heinrich Schmelzer*.

Alas, neither of these has TC Composer Guestbooks, but Taggart hopes to supply these later this week, unless one of you chooses to pip him at the post!


----------



## Guest

classical yorkist said:


> There's definitely a place for women in baroque composition and performance, much more than in most other periods I seem to think. Dell Guerre is another one worth checking out.


Élisabeth-Claude Jacquet de La Guerre? She has some terrific harpsichord pieces-some of the most imaginative I've heard in the Baroque repertoire.


----------



## Ingélou

An unscheduled stop between stations - Purcell Sonatas.
Lovely and lyrical.


----------



## Jacck

after I had been blown away by J.J.Fux's Ciaconna and Turcaria , I explored this composer (who Bach admired) further and he wrote also a great requiem at the occasion of the death of the Kaiser Leopold I


----------



## Ingélou

After listening to the wonderful collection of Barbara Strozzi songs by Cappella Mediterranea (see above, #459) I tried to find YouTube examples of some of BStrozzi's other songs.

First - 




*Barbara Strozzi 'La Vendetta'
Spirited and beguiling. Lovely conversation of vocal and instrumental lines.
*

Second - 




*Classical Music - Barbara Strozzi: Il Romeo
These songs seem so integrated - so emotional - so single-hearted. Beautiful.*

Thirdly - 




*'Sino Allo Morte' - Bizarrie Armoniche. Roberto Invernizzi, soprano*

From 2 months ago - an interesting comment on the video:
Barbara Strozzi had two of the best composers of the early baroque as teachers: Monteverdi (probably) and Cavalli, so it's not surprising that she wrote music of the highest quality, which easily stands next to the best male composers of the time. Francesca Peri was an equally fine composer who had her father, Jacopo, Caccini et al. as teachers (probably). The baroque was a good time period for female composers - no other century since has produced female composers of their quality.﻿

*I wasn't overly fond of the voice here; it's a bit too shrieky in places for my taste, but again, it's passionate and beautiful vocal music.
*

Fourthly - 




*Barbara Strozzi - Amor Dormiglione - Love Song of the Renaissance.
More charming, less passionate. Still nice.*

Fifthly - 




*Raquel Andueza - L'amante segreto - Barbara Strozzi
Lyrical - captivating - a woman feeling and thinking aloud.
*

Some other songs from YouTube, with my reactions:
*Amor Non Si Fugge * 
*Changes of tempo - sounds like 'trying things out'. Good, though.
*

*Pensaci ben mio core - Ars Lyrica, Houston*




*The song's okay but I don't like this voice much. Mannered and seems speaking/ shrieking rather than singing sometimes.
*

*Barbara Strozzi: Begli occhi (Mango Baroque)
Nice enough. *

*I love Barbara Strozzi, and I don't understand why she doesn't have a higher profile. 
Now to start on Schmelzer...*


----------



## classical yorkist

Of interest to you Ingelou this Friday on BBC 4:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b6znwz


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## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> Of interest to you Ingelou this Friday on BBC 4:
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b6znwz


Oh dear - it looks fab, but we don't have a television now.
Mostly, we don't miss it - except when something like this comes along.

Thanks for flagging it up, though - I'm sure it will be a very interesting programme. :tiphat:


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## Ingélou

There is now a TC Composer Guestbook for Barbara Strozzi - 
https://www.talkclassical.com/55823-barbara-strozzi-c-1619-a.html#post1466313 - 
the first that ever I made.

I hope that more musically-gifted and knowlegeable people than I will put some posts on it.

Live long and prosper!


----------



## Taggart

I've just added one for Johann Heinrich Schmelzer (1620 - 1683)


----------



## Ingélou

My blood quickened when I read that Schmelzer was my beloved Biber's teacher - and it did well to do so. 
These 'chamber works' have a lovely lyrical tender sound, with some sparking and sparkling melodic forays. 
A vive violinerie - what could be better?






Here's a selection of comments from below the video, which I thoroughly agree with:

*Schmelzer is so underrated! He's so original and inventive that my first thought was that he sounded modern. Not quite, but he doesn't exactly sound baroque, except for an occasional unoriginal phrase - he sounds like Schmelzer.﻿*

*A very pure music exquisitely interpreted.﻿*

*A funnily unlucky employee at the court of Emperor Leopold: he had to wait to the death of Giovanni Felice Sances to become Kapellmeister, although he was performing most of the duties as Sances was becoming too old to carry out the Imperial musical duties. When finally Sances died at 79 and he became KM, Schmelzer got plague and died only few months later. I have done quite a bit of his music in my concerts and like it a lot.﻿*

*Wonderful performances. Crystal clear, with appropriate rhetorical passion and "growl" in the lower registers.*

*Schmelzer is such an intriguing composer. I find his works full of poignant beauty and mystery. Hits the soul directly.﻿*


----------



## Ingélou

J.H. Schmelzer: La Margarita - Music for the Court of Vienna&Prague [Armonico Tributo Austria]






One comment on the YouTube Video makes interesting reading:
*Amazing that this type of music can express great grandeur and magnificence but at the same time pathos, nostalgia and tenderness - never encountered any other music that can do this so well!﻿*

For me, however, the stateliness was uppermost, and I saw less of the pathos and tenderness, though some pieces had them. 
I enjoyed listening and found it very pretty music, but it didn't grab me like the video I listened to before, #468.


----------



## Ingélou

Schmelzer, Violin Sonatas - 
played by Andrew Manze, baroque violin, Nigel North theorbo and John Toll, harpsichord, organ






This music is '*stunning*' as my violin-playing friend commented when I put the YouTube video on my Facebook page. Or, as someone comments on the YT video, *'This record is a pure jewel. What a musical fervour in this music.'﻿*

It is by turns lyrical, tender, sprightly, passionate and beguiling. 
I love Andrew Manze's 'heartfelt' playing style.

From never having heard of Schmelzer, I have become an admirer of his beautiful compositions, and maybe if and when we move house and are able to expand our cd collection, I will buy this cd and the one in post 468.

Next stop on my Listening Project Journey (see OP) is *Jean-Henri D'Anglebert*. 
My spouse has kindly put up a Composer Guestbook with some videos to listen to, and there are other posts and recommendations on there too :tiphat::
https://www.talkclassical.com/55898-jean-henri-danglebert-1629-a.html#post1468971


----------



## Mandryka

Very nice Purcell suite here from Matteo Messori


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## Ingélou

*Jean-Henri D'Anglebert:*

I've finished listening to what I could find of this composer's work on YouTube.

I like him - I suppose I would, wouldn't I, as he was a good friend of my favourite Jean-Baptiste Lully (who's next up on the Wiki List). And when I was listening to the longer video I often caught, in among the harpsichord twiddles, the languishing end-notes and elegant turns of phrase of the French baroque music that I love.

In general, I think his work has a thoughtful beauty. There are so many talented composers in the Baroque Era, and here is another one. 
I am glad to have made his acquaintance.

Here's what I listened to:

*Pieces de Clavecin,Scott Ross*




Lovely reflective music.

*Suite en sol mineur. Francesco Cera harpsichord*




Beautiful.

*Folies d'Espagne*




Yes - it's that tune again; the Folia that every baroque composer of note seems to have had a go at. I like this arrangement as well as any - it really warms up and gets exciting and fireworky in the final variations.

*Tombeau de Monsieur Chambonnières*




Triste elegance. Rippling reflections.


----------



## Ingélou

I've now reached *Jean-Baptiste Lully* on the Wiki List of Baroque Composers, but it's a little like that Blue Peter cliche, 'Here's one I made earlier'.

Lully has already been mentioned on this thread - see posts #230 - #233 - and some years ago I did a 'presentation' in the group I founded by mistake, Baroque Exchange. 
*Baroque Chat #2, May 3rd 2014: An approach to the music of Lully*
https://www.talkclassical.com/groups/baroque-exchange-d268-baroque-chat-2-may.html

Some of the video links have gone dead for that, specifically the Dies Irae, which I used to discuss my response to his sacred music. As well as my presentation, there are very thoughtful responses by people who we don't see much of now for one reason or another - Novelette, Mahlerian, Talking Head, Heather Reichgott, Magnetic Ghost, Dr Mike, Primo Uomo, Weston - along with other members who are still posting: Schigolch, Science, HaydnbearstheClock, Manxfeeder, and my dear husband Taggart.

*Sic Transit Gloria Mundi! *

This was the concluding statement of my presentation:

*To sum up - I enjoy Lully's tunes & his rhythm & liveliness, & his elegance & grace - but I also see tristesse, reflectiveness, and a soulful beauty. His reputation stands high in France, naturellement, but elsewhere, I believe he is too easily dismissed. When we joined TalkClassical in early 2013, would you believe, there was no Composer Guestbook on Lully, and Taggart had to supply one! He is also never mentioned without a) a dig at the manner of his death and/or b) a comparison with Rameau, to Lully's discomfiture.

I like Rameau too. And I grant that he was the better, musically speaking. But Lully kicked it all off. If we are discussing Monteverdi, at the start of the Baroque Style, do we keep comparing him to Bach? No way.
And at the end of the day, it is Lully who speaks to my heart.
*

This is Lully's Composer Guestbook, where there are also some interesting posts:
Jean-Baptiste Lully

This is the music that kicked off my passion for Lully - Jordi Savall and L'Orchestre du Roi Soleil:
Symphonies, Ouvertures & Airs à jouer. "Le Bourgeois Gentilhomme". "Le Divertissement Royal". "Alceste". Chaconne de "L'Amour Médecin".






We bought the cd - and also the one featured on this YT video:
Ballet de Xerxès (1660)






and we bought the dvd of Cadmus et Hermione, though I haven't listened to that for a year or two.

I also ordered from the USA a sheet music book of Lully's airs, which I worked through with my fiddle teacher, who is a professional HIP violist and violinist with various baroque ensembles, including La Serenissima, The Old Street Band, and Norwich Baroque. 
We had a great time.

So I consider that with Lully, I've 'been there, done that, and got the teeshirt.'

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ergo, the next composer on my list is *Marco Uccellini*, for whom I've just completed the Composer Guestbook, but who doesn't appear on the Wiki list. 
It will be an interesting side-alley.


----------



## Ingélou

*Marco Uccellini* - Guest Book. 
Marco Uccellini (1603 or 1610 till 1680)

*Marco Uccellini:* Violin Sonatas






*Marco Uccellini* - yet another Baroque Composer Talent. :tiphat:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Next up is Charpentier - but with two (traditional) music schools coming up for Taggart and me in July and August, it's time for my summer break, I think. 

Wishing you all a fab summer holiday. :cheers:


----------



## Mandryka

Some rather satisfying performances of music by Scheidt, Hassler etc here, from an LP by Roland Götz. The instrument, though not particularly well recorded, has a delicacy and finesse which I like very much, and it seems to go well with his thoughtful approach to the music.






By the way I noticed that Matteo Messori is recording Kerll for Brilliant, a complete edition I think. And the Bach inventions on clavichord. There's a very good clavichord recording of them already from Jaroslav Tuma.


----------



## Taggart

Latest guest book : Marc-Antoine Charpentier (1643-1704)


----------



## Ingélou

Mandryka said:


> Some rather satisfying performances of music by Scheidt, Hassler etc here, from an LP by Roland Götz. The instrument, though not particularly well recorded, has a delicacy and finesse which I like very much, and it seems to go well with his thoughtful approach to the music.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By the way I noticed that Matteo Messori is recording Kerll for Brilliant, a complete edition I think. And the Bach inventions on clavichord. There's a very good clavichord recording of them already from Jaroslav Tuma.


Oh no, Mandryka - I reread your post just now and realised that I'd never heard of *yet another* baroque composer. I don't think he's on the Wiki list, so yet another one I'll have to make time to listen to.

Thank you very much! :lol:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Well - no time like the present; here are a few YouTube offerings.

Kerll's Passacaglia:






Battaglia:






Toccata Prima






~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And very nice too! :tiphat:


----------



## classical yorkist

I just have to say that this thread is a constant delight and many, many thanks to both Ingelou and Mandryka for the music they link to in this thread. All I think is will the creativity, beauty and fecundity of baroque music ever stop!?


----------



## Phil loves classical

I was just listening to some Vivaldi after a long stint (maybe 2 months) of just modern and contemporary. It was a blast of fresh air. Proof enough to me that tonality is more natural to most humans, and that humans will listen to music not like machines would (if they could), and it is to be celebrated.


----------



## Mandryka

Nice overture to JSB's Partita 4 here from Lillian Gordis






And a very different approach to Bull, not surprisingly


----------



## Mandryka

The Bull sequence by Lillian Gordis is very good, extraordinary discord half way through, can that be right? Bull’s Pavans and Galliards seem to me very interesting, they’ve been seriously underrecorded, the only complete set is by Joseph Payne.


----------



## Ingélou

Mandryka said:


> The Bull sequence by Lillian Gordis is very good, extraordinary discord half way through, can that be right? Bull's Pavans and Galliards seem to me very interesting, they've been seriously underrecorded, the only complete set is by Joseph Payne.


I can't say - I don't know enough, and obviously copyist or printer's errors do occur.
I hope a Bull expert will be along shortly.

But I did, out of interest, listen carefully to the video. I didn't feel there was any part that stuck out like a sore thumb, though the slowish bit around the eight and a half minute mark seemed a bit plonking.

I have noticed that when I listen to some music from this era, particularly madrigals, I feel jarred by what sound like dischords but seem to be part of the genre, the composer 'trying out' sounds.

I do hope a Bull expert *will* be along shortly. 
But anyway, I enjoyed a reason to listen to a nice piece of renaissance keyboard music. Thanks.


----------



## Mandryka

It was at about 3’50” that I started to think that maybe the harpsichord’s temperament was interesting. The bit at the end is an in nomine, I don’t know if there’s any good reason to link the in nomine with the galliard. I’ve mostly heard that in nomine played on organ, though Asperen, Rampe and Hantai have set a precedent of recording it with a harpsichord. Asperen made a particularly beautiful virginal recording of it, an instrument at the Brussels Instrument Museum.

As far as the Pavan and Galliard goes, it’s No 67 in Vol 19 of Musica Brittanica, apart from this one I’ve only heard Payne and the one on Watchorn’s set (I’m not sure who’s playing it, it may be Esfahani.) I like Gordis most I think.


----------



## Ingélou

Mandryka said:


> *It was at about 3'50" that I started to think that maybe the harpsichord's temperament was interesting. *The bit at the end is an in nomine, I don't know if there's any good reason to link the in nomine with the galliard. I've mostly heard that in nomine played on organ, though Asperen, Rampe and Hantai have set a precedent of recording it with a harpsichord. Asperen made a particularly beautiful virginal recording of it, an instrument at the Brussels Instrument Museum.
> 
> As far as the Pavan and Galliard goes, it's No 67 in Vol 19 of Musica Brittanica, apart from this one I've only heard Payne and the one on Watchorn's set (I'm not sure who's playing it, it may be Esfahani.) I like Gordis most I think.


I'll have another listen. Not that I'm much cop. 

Thanks for all the baroque posts you've been putting up here and in the Composer Guestbooks. :tiphat:


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## Mandryka

I find it helpful just to note down any ideas when I listen to a recording, it helps me just sort things out in my mind. That’s what I’m doing really. I used to use another forum for this but they’ve got major software problems now, so I thought I’d try and see what happens if I do it here. 

As far as not being much cop goes, that’s not true and anyway, I think there’s a knack of listening to counterpoint, and it takes a while to pick it up.


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## Ingélou

I'm on to *Charpentier *in my Wiki listening project (see OP) and I've been listening to some of his *secular music* that's currently on YouTube.
I have enjoyed listening. The music is lovely and elegant - it perhaps lacks some of Lully's *oomph* (a technical term), however.

The links I've listened to are:

1. *Musique de Theatre pour Andromède; H.504*




*Elegant, but lacks spirit compared with Lully (in my opinion).
*
2. *Marc Antoine Charpentier 'Le Malade Imaginaire' Prologue - New Brunswick Early Music Festival and Millikin Opera Theatre. Recorded September 2012.* 




*The music is pretty and engaging; I found one of the voices and some of the duets very strident in sound. 
*
3. *Marc-Antoine Charpentier Les Plaisirs de Versailles*




*Elegant but insipid.*

4. *Baroque Concert - M-A. Charpentier: Suite in A Minor / Virtuosi di Praga*




*Serenely beautiful. 
*
5. *Marc-Antoine Charpentier Divertissements, Airs & Concerts*




*Always held my attention - sometimes my rapture. 
*
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And now on to a feast of *Charpentier's Sacred Music*. :angel: :wave:


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## classical yorkist

Ahhh, but have you listened to his famous Te Deum?


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## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> Ahhh, but have you listened to his famous Te Deum?


Yes, I have - one of those pieces that still have the wow factor the fiftieth time you listen.


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## Ingélou

Charpentier's Sacred Music - the only word for it is *sublime*.

I listened to these videos currently on YouTube:

Marc-Antoine Charpentier: Missa Assumpta est Maria H.11




*A beautiful sound - celestial voices - but maybe a little elegant for my taste in church music.
*
Te Deum - see above, post #487




*Oh it's that one!  Magnifique! Pom pom pompa dom ..
*
Marc-Antoine Charpentier - 'Messe de Minuit pour Nöel'




*Haunting! What an opening. This was my favourite - beautiful, and in contrast, the ending is serene and lovely.
*
CHARPENTIER - Première Leçon de Ténèbres du Vendredy Saint




*Just beautiful! *

M.-A. Charpentier: O Antiphons (2 videos) (Les Arts Florissants)








*Both very pleasant; I preferred the second - the first (for me) was a little lack-lustre.
*
*With baroque composers like Charpentier:tiphat:, I'm very glad I undertook this listening project.*


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## Ingélou

My next composer is not on the Wiki List - why am I not surprised?
It's *Élisabeth Jacquet de La Guerre*
and here is her composer guestbook: 
Élisabeth Jacquet de La Guerre, 1665 - 1729.


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## Ingélou

Have been listening to - 
*Elisabeth-Claude Jacquet De La Guerre* Cembalo Suites N 1,2,3




*- beautiful intelligent music. 
Mea culpa, I can't listen to lone harpsichord for more than half an hour at a time, but this is top class.*

and - 
*Elisabeth-Claude Jacquet De La Guerre* Cembalo Suites N 4,5,6




*Cascades of diamonds, eloquent & ethereal. *

:tiphat: With this composer, you get *Harpsichord Heaven. * :angel:


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## Mandryka

Not a bad performance of Georg Muffat's 3rd toccata here.


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## Ingélou

Adieu, Elisabeth Jacquet de la Guerre - finished with these two (mostly) non-harpsichord videos from YouTube:

*Songs:*
Isabelle Desrochers, soprano
Les Voix Humaines, Christine Payeux

[00:00] I. Simphonie
[01:03] II. Récit
[01:38] III. Gracieusement & un peu louré
[03:19] IV. Récit
[03:31] V. Tempête, vivement
[05:44] VI. Air
[08:07] VII. Récitatif
[09:01] VIII. Sommeil
[16:55] IX. Récitatif
[17:26] X. 2éme Récit
[18:43] XI. Air, gracieusement & louré



*This was pleasant enough, but nothing 'out of the ordinary' as far as French Baroque goes, I felt; it didn't really grab me. 
*

*Sonatas:*






Elisabeth Claude Jacquet de La Guerre Sonata I 
Elisabeth Claude Jacquet de La Guerre Sonata I Part 2 
Elisabeth Claude Jacquet de La Guerre Prelude Carchiolo Clavicembalo 
Elisabeth Claude Jacquet de La Guerre Sonata I for 2 Violins

*This was simply gorgeous.*


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## Ingélou

My next port of call is *Buxtehude*, a Bigwig.

Where to start?
Well, here's the Composer Guestbook. 
Dieterich Buxtehude

And here's what 'Buxtehude on YouTube' has to offer:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=b.....69i57j0l4.3946j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Help! 

It will all have to wait till I get back from my folk music Merlin Academy Music School at Abbotsford, but I would be so grateful to anyone who can sort out the wood from the trees for me and suggest some *Buxtehude Must-Listens*. :tiphat:


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## classical yorkist

Ingélou said:


> My next port of call is *Buxtehude*, a Bigwig.
> 
> Where to start?
> Well, here's the Composer Guestbook.
> Dieterich Buxtehude
> 
> And here's what 'Buxtehude on YouTube' has to offer:
> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=b.....69i57j0l4.3946j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
> 
> Help!
> 
> It will all have to wait till I get back from my folk music Merlin Academy Music School at Abbotsford, but I would be so grateful to anyone who can sort out the wood from the trees for me and suggest some *Buxtehude Must-Listens*. :tiphat:


Well, his _Membra Jesu Nostri_ will be right up your Street and is a work of staggering talent.
I also absolutely am in awe of his organ works. Bach was such an admirer that he supposedly walked to Lubeck to attend some of Buxtehude's famous Abendmusik concerts.


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## classical yorkist

The wiki article on _Membra Jesu Nostri_ is actually really useful and well worth a read.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Membra_Jesu_Nostri


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## Ariasexta

I want to write a book to elaborate how much I love and learn from Baroque music. Yes, I almost am like burying myself within a forest of notes and melodies. These music are soothing, honest like nature. It is not that I can not enjoy romanticism, on the contrary, I enjoyed a lot of them. Wagner, Beethove, Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninoff just to name a few that I had enjoyed and still love them as now. 

Baroque is totally a wholely different matter than pure enjoyment, that is about being aflow, adrift upon music, entrusting oneself to music, totally forgeting about whatever excitement, heaving emotions that wear me away in everyday life. To make quick an analogy, it will be that Baroque is like myself singing within, not listening to someone else. It is lovely to turn the sound volume to a small scale as to be heard only sitting by the minispeaker, without disturbing someone asleep right in the same room. There could be no other type of music that is suitable to hear in such delicate moments in delicate ways.


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## classical yorkist

Listening to this:







and it's absolutely mind blowingly, staggeringly beautiful.


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## Mandryka

Ingélou said:


> My next port of call is *Buxtehude*, a Bigwig.
> 
> Where to start?
> Well, here's the Composer Guestbook.
> Dieterich Buxtehude
> 
> And here's what 'Buxtehude on YouTube' has to offer:
> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=b.....69i57j0l4.3946j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
> 
> Help!
> 
> It will all have to wait till I get back from my folk music Merlin Academy Music School at Abbotsford, but I would be so grateful to anyone who can sort out the wood from the trees for me and suggest some *Buxtehude Must-Listens*. :tiphat:


I think you may like the A minor trio sonata BuxWV 272. Glen Wilson's CD may also be up your alley.


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## classical yorkist

Been listening to this today: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0bck9w2

I would highly recommend it.


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## Ariasexta

I read both classical and modern literature, with a consideration with Nobel winners for lit. Of course there must be Hemingway, but for me Faulkner is the Le Roi of modern lit. This can be a recommendation in lit too if you like :tiphat: But I would not be surprised if many find him too academic. Hopefully you will find him a lifetime pal as I do after giving him more chances. 

I have a guilty secret to confess too: I can not resist Beethoven`s string ensemble music, that is his quartets. My bottomline is still the total rejection of all classical piano music or classical music with piano, not because I hate them but of a kind of ethical rigor that I have to apply for my gratitude to late Gustav Leonhardt and the period spiritualism that is consistent throughout the whole epoches(Renaissance and Baroque) in question. Not to mention that JS Bach himself also rejected all kind of new trends that went against his heritage. I do feel guilty of being not able to resist the Beethoven quartets but Mozart. Mozart is definitely in my scope of ethical realm as long as no piano is used. Baroque is about 1600-1780 for me, marked by the end of Mozart`s heyday. Unethical Mozarts piano music can be played on harpsichord and that will be as ethical as Bach`s partitas.


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## Ariasexta

I do not resent most of 18th century music, however, the popularity of piano during the later 18th century remains always an awkward problem for me, while the vocal music, string ensemble music of this period are attractive to me, but I still fully reject the addition of piano. I will have to make another arbitrous if not outrageous opinion again, about string music, string instruments are so powerful that baroque period did not fully exploit their potential. The controversy will still arise from the very very delicate boundary I define between ethical and unethical intrumentations. There should be a limit of orchestral size to be insisted for the string music besude the riddence of piano, otherwise not to be in the affair of rightful exploration of the string music.

The string instruments have rightful voices in the late 18th century music, and possibly 19th century too, composers of which periods contributed a lot in lending freedom to their expressive power in spite of the continued porblems of individualism. Or rather the individualist temperament has enriched string music with new colors and powers. We should not miss this part of musical development, even for me a dedicated audience to early music on authentic instruments, I must make up difficult rationale for me to explore this part of music, and the difference between the ethical reception and rejection is as delicate as the most intricate personal complexes. To bring this out is destined to be flaming or trolling, but I still bring it out again and again, because such difficulty is not unique to me only, but to many person too, I may lack the sophistication in English skills to write good enough, it is still a question for all you serious lovers of music to consider for yourself.

I am not promoting non-Baroque music here, but on the very contrary, I just want to say that, something is so fresh, alive of the baroque spirit within the chaos of later musical productions. There is the difficulty and delicacy of musical exploration in the baroque *spirit*, not just apparently in the periods defined by common senses. People need to free themself from institutionalized generalizations to develop very personalized taste to get to it. I do not regret to leave out piano, I may call that instrument a disaster, which I do not want to hear accompanying the string instruments or human voice.

My version of ethical instrumentation and orchestra size of string music as now:

1-No piano
2-No larger than sextet for ensemble/chamber music
3-No patriotism( I hate this theme in music, whatever Vaterland or motherland title)
4-No more than 2 percussions for symphony
5-No more than 50circa players, or not larger than that as made classic by Mozart

There will be likely additions as time goes, these are very basics ones will never compromise.


----------



## Ingélou

Ariasexta said:


> I do not resent most of 18th century music, however, the popularity of piano during the later 18th century remains always an awkward problem for me, while the vocal music, string ensemble music of this period are attractive to me, but I still fully reject the addition of piano. I will have to make another arbitrous if not outrageous opinion again, about string music, string instruments are so powerful that baroque period did not fully exploit their potential. The controversy will still arise from the very very delicate boundary I define between ethical and unethical intrumentations. There should be a limit of orchestral size to be insisted for the string music besude the riddence of piano, otherwise not to be in the affair of rightful exploration of the string music.
> 
> The string instruments have rightful voices in the late 18th century music, and possibly 19th century too, composers of which periods contributed a lot in lending freedom to their expressive power in spite of the continued porblems of individualism. Or rather the individualist temperament has enriched string music with new colors and powers. We should not miss this part of musical development, even for me a dedicated audience to early music on authentic instruments, I must make up difficult rationale for me to explore this part of music, and the difference between the ethical reception and rejection is as delicate as the most intricate personal complexes. To bring this out is destined to be flaming or trolling, but I still bring it out again and again, because such difficulty is not unique to me only, but to many person too, I may lack the sophistication in English skills to write good enough, it is still a question for all you serious lovers of music to consider for yourself.
> 
> I am not promoting non-Baroque music here, but on the very contrary, I just want to say that, something is so fresh, alive of the baroque spirit within the chaos of later musical productions. There is the difficulty and delicacy of musical exploration in the baroque *spirit*, not just apparently in the periods defined by common senses. People need to free themself from institutionalized generalizations to develop very personalized taste to get to it. I do not regret to leave out piano, I may call that instrument a disaster, which I do not want to hear accompanying the string instruments or human voice.
> 
> My version of ethical instrumentation and orchestra size of string music as now:
> 
> 1-No piano
> 2-No larger than sextet for ensemble/chamber music
> 3-No patriotism( I hate this theme in music, whatever Vaterland or motherland title)
> 4-No more than 2 percussions for symphony
> 5-No more than 50circa players, or not larger than that as made classic by Mozart
> 
> There will be likely additions as time goes, these are very basics ones will never compromise.


Interesting to read, though I don't always agree! 
Always glad if someone posts thoughtfully on this thread. :tiphat:


----------



## Ariasexta

Ingélou said:


> Interesting to read, though I don't always agree!
> Always glad if someone posts thoughtfully on this thread. :tiphat:


:tiphat: Thanks, if too much I talked, probably because I feel the general dead silence on the baroque topic too hard to break. :devil:


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## classical yorkist

I have spent a simply wonderful morning listening to this:





I cannot explain why I love harpsichords, and other early keyboard instruments, quite so much but hearing them refreshes my spirit and fills me with such a sense of contentment. I think I really must have some harpsichord at my funeral (I'm not dying by the way).


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## classical yorkist

One thing I really enjoy is combining baroque music with it's contemporary visual arts. If it's something you haven't done I would definitely recommend it. Viewing a religious painting while listening to a Bach cantata enhances my experience. Anyway, one thing that's really struck me is just how ubiquitous harpsichords are in 17th and 18th century painting.

https://www.pinterest.co.uk/musicksmonument/paintings-with-harpsichord-virginal-or-clavichord/


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## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> Well, his _Membra Jesu Nostri_ will be right up your Street and is a work of staggering talent.
> I also absolutely am in awe of his organ works. Bach was such an admirer that he supposedly walked to Lubeck to attend some of Buxtehude's famous Abendmusik concerts.


Thank you very much, classical yorkist. I've just finished listening to Buxtehude's _Membra Jesu Nostri_ as performed by the ever-fabulous Sixteen - we saw them once in York Minster. Even the way they walked on and off the stage was so precise and stylish.






What can I say about this music, except that it is *Glorious*?

:angel::angel::angel::angel::angel:

*(Well, okay, I could also say celestial, heavenly, sublime, out-of-this-world, ethereal...)*

I'll now be hunting up something instrumental by Buxtehude.


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## Ingélou

Starting with :tiphat: Mandryka's suggestion of Buxtehude - Sonata a 2 in A minor BuxWV 272.

I found this vibrant version on YouTube performed by Ensemble Fantasticus (Rie Kimura, baroque violin - Robert Smith, viola da gamba - Guillermo Brachetta, harpsichord.)






It's delightful - vivacious & sometimes pensive, always fresh. 
(The video is also visually attractive, with the red harpsichord and the violinist's green dress - complementary colours!  )


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## Ingélou

I am very fortunate in that my fiddle teacher is a baroque specialist (HIP), and when I returned to the violin in 2012, I studied baroque music with him and regularly went to concerts by Norwich Baroque (he is the director). I'd love to go to a concert by La Serenissima, an ensemble specialising in HIP Vivaldi, in which my teacher plays viola. They just put on a concert in Munich - here's a photo they put up on Facebook this morning, taken after the performance.
My teacher is on the bottom row, extreme left.










Even though I have decided to specialise in folk fiddle, I still love baroque. Perhaps I'm lucky because the music I love best - traditional Scottish fiddle music from the eighteenth century, 'The Golden Age of Scottish Fiddle' - is structurally very close to baroque music.

I get the best of both worlds.

Here are three Scots airs from Geminiani's treatise, played by Palladians (inc. Rachel Podger):






PS - We're having no luck with our house sale, so I must make the most of the lessons I have left. I wonder if I'll find as good a fiddle teacher in York, if and when?
I hope so!


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## classical yorkist

Ingélou said:


> PS - We're having no luck with our house sale, so I must make the most of the lessons I have left. I wonder if I'll find as good a fiddle teacher in York, if and when?
> I hope so!


That would be the same York where the National Centre for Early Music is right? Mmm, I think you might find a teacher there.


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## Ingélou

*Dietrich Buxtehude Complete Organ Works Vol I,Ton Koopman*




*Long stretches of solo organ music are not really my thing, but I can't deny it - this music is magnificent! *

I am now listening to this video of *Buxtehude's sonatas*, and enjoying it very much. 




*This is lovely - wistful and vivacious by turns, always melodic - it carries me along. *

I quote this very interesting comment from below the second video, and wonder what any readers of this thread might think?

*Buxtehude is indeed underappreciated since he is forced to be remembered as organist. No idea why it is necessary for musical academics to be so narrow minded in efforts of forming public perceptions. It is perplexing seeing the same thing happening again and again to the legacy of baroque composers. Vivaldi, Pachelbel, Buxtehude, Handel, Clerambault, Sweelink (the list goes on) - all has had written diverse and rich chamber repertoire that is just as good as their perceived main achievements... Unless music lovers are considered just incapable to judge by themselves... Nevermind... Buxtehude's chamber works are utterly sophisticated, complex and densely written. As always with northern baroque music structure reins supreme here. It just shows the fittingly rigorous compositional approach of Germanic school. J.S. Bach did not come out of nowhere... Original uncompromising music. Thanks for sharing!﻿*


----------



## Ingélou

The next composer on the Wiki List is one that I've already listened to - Heinrich Ignaz Franz Von Biber.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Baroque_composers

Here's his guestbook, started by Science:tiphat::
Heinrich Biber

We have two cds of Biber's Rosary Sonatas, one by Andrew Manze -










and one by Bizarrie Armoniche, violinist Riccardo Minasi.










We love and play both the cds. Manze I love for his sweet expressive tone, and Minasi & co I love for their spirited playing which emphasises in musical ways the theme of each Mystery.

Why do I love the Rosary/Mystery Sonatas in any case?

Well, the theme is important to me, as I'm a Catholic (converted 45 years ago) and I do combine listening with devotion to a certain extent. 
But also - the tunes are so beautiful, and the plangent string crossing and harmonies & the rhythms are so emotionally expressive - in my opinion.

I'll post again on Biber - this is number 1 out of 3 posts. 
Have a nice Saturday night, anyone reading this.


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## Mandryka

Ingélou said:


> *. . . Sweelink . . . has had written diverse and rich chamber repertoire *


*

What is Sweelinck's chamber music?*


----------



## Ingélou

Mandryka said:


> What is Sweelinck's chamber music?


I have no idea - because I didn't say that Sweelinck writes chamber music.

This is taken from the comment somebody else (Eugene S******** - hereafter E.S. )posted under the video of Buxtehude's sonatas that I linked to my post. The full quotation reads:

Buxtehude is indeed underappreciated since he is forced to be remembered as organist. No idea why it is necessary for musical academics to be so narrow minded in efforts of forming public perceptions. It is perplexing seeing the same thing happening again and again to the legacy of baroque composers. Vivaldi, Pachelbel, Buxtehude, Handel, Clerambault, Sweelink (the list goes on) - all has had written diverse and rich chamber repertoire that is just as good as their perceived main achievements... Unless music lovers are considered just incapable to judge by themselves... Nevermind... Buxtehude's chamber works are utterly sophisticated, complex and densely written. As always with northern baroque music structure reins supreme here. It just shows the fittingly rigorous compositional approach of Germanic school. J.S. Bach did not come out of nowhere... Original uncompromising music. Thanks for sharing.

I posted it because I found it an interesting idea, as I myself thought of Buxtehude as basically a keyboardist and was surprised by the beautiful sonatas.
I wanted the reactions of other posters who know more than me about baroque music - people like you.

So - your reaction is that E.S. shouldn't have put Sweelinck on the list because he didn't write chamber music? I can see your point.

However, E.S. the commentator could have phrased it badly - he is saying that critics force a narrow-minded conception of composers on the general public, and in Sweelinck's case he may have meant to say that his public image is that he's 'just an organist', whereas in truth he wrote some very important *choral* works.

Unfortunately E.S. should have teased Sweelinck's name out from the crowd and not let him be linked to the idea of chamber music.

What do you think of E.S.'s general idea - that academics tend to promote a narrow view of baroque composers based on their main/ more important contribution to musical history and so the general public does not realise the rich variety of other pieces that they could produce, and then these 'other' works get neglected and are not recorded as often.


----------



## classical yorkist

Ingélou said:


> I have no idea - because I didn't say that Sweelinck writes chamber music.
> 
> This is taken from the comment somebody else (Eugene S******** - hereafter E.S. )posted under the video of Buxtehude's sonatas that I linked to my post. The full quotation reads:
> 
> Buxtehude is indeed underappreciated since he is forced to be remembered as organist. No idea why it is necessary for musical academics to be so narrow minded in efforts of forming public perceptions. It is perplexing seeing the same thing happening again and again to the legacy of baroque composers. Vivaldi, Pachelbel, Buxtehude, Handel, Clerambault, Sweelink (the list goes on) - all has had written diverse and rich chamber repertoire that is just as good as their perceived main achievements... Unless music lovers are considered just incapable to judge by themselves... Nevermind... Buxtehude's chamber works are utterly sophisticated, complex and densely written. As always with northern baroque music structure reins supreme here. It just shows the fittingly rigorous compositional approach of Germanic school. J.S. Bach did not come out of nowhere... Original uncompromising music. Thanks for sharing.
> 
> I posted it because I found it an interesting idea, as I myself thought of Buxtehude as basically a keyboardist and was surprised by the beautiful sonatas.
> I wanted the reactions of other posters who know more than me about baroque music - people like you.
> 
> So - your reaction is that E.S. shouldn't have put Sweelinck on the list because he didn't write chamber music? I can see your point.
> 
> However, E.S. the commentator could have phrased it badly - he is saying that critics force a narrow-minded conception of composers on the general public, and in Sweelinck's case he may have meant to say that his public image is that he's 'just an organist', whereas in truth he wrote some very important *choral* works.
> 
> Unfortunately E.S. should have teased Sweelinck's name out from the crowd and not let him be linked to the idea of chamber music.
> 
> What do you think of E.S.'s general idea - that academics tend to promote a narrow view of baroque composers based on their main/ more important contribution to musical history and so the general public does not realise the rich variety of other pieces that they could produce, and then these 'other' works get neglected and are not recorded as often.


I don't think I'm in any way qualified to answer but I have an opinion. I understand what the YouTube poster is saying but I think baroque appreciation is a nice of a niche and asking the ordinary man on the street whether he's aware of Buxtehude's chamber music is about like asking whether he's even heard of Buxtehude's! People know the four seasons and they've heard of Bach and Handel but they surely don't know that they're baroque, they're just 'classical music'. We know that here is a dizzying amount of music from 1600-1750, how can there not be, as it lasts 150 years! We're enthusiasts and I doubt we could absorb it all in our listening lives. I have a CD of Buxtehude's Op 1 VII Suonate and it is incredible (I'm listening to it now) and it has what I earlier described as that 'twisty, turny muscularity', I'm thinking that perhaps 'sinuous' is a better adjective now. I'm sure people would love it if hey heard it but they'll never get a chance to hear it. Baroque composers were so versatile and ecung because the pace of advancement was so fast and there was a great leap forward in music I think. Is it better that a composer is remembered for one thing than not being remembered at all?


----------



## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> I don't think I'm in any way qualified to answer but I have an opinion. I understand what the YouTube poster is saying but I think baroque appreciation is a nice of a niche and asking the ordinary man on the street whether he's aware of Buxtehude's chamber music is about like asking whether he's even heard of Buxtehude's! People know the four seasons and they've heard of Bach and Handel but they surely don't know that they're baroque, they're just 'classical music'. We know that here is a dizzying amount of music from 1600-1750, how can there not be, as it lasts 150 years! We're enthusiasts and I doubt we could absorb it all in our listening lives. I have a CD of Buxtehude's Op 1 VII Suonate and it is incredible (I'm listening to it now) and it has what I earlier described as that 'twisty, turny muscularity', I'm thinking that perhaps 'sinuous' is a better adjective now. I'm sure people would love it if hey heard it but they'll never get a chance to hear it. Baroque composers were so versatile and ecung because the pace of advancement was so fast and there was a great leap forward in music I think. Is it better that a composer is remembered for one thing than not being remembered at all?


Very interesting post. And I agree! 

(PS - I feel both surprised and disappointed, constantly, that more attention isn't paid to baroque music even on Talk Classical. Vivaldi, Bach & Handel will pop up, usually, in a discussion of 'Great Composers', but any sort of subtle appreciation of them as individuals is rare indeed, and the 'lesser' baroque composers are lucky if they even have a guestbook. Taggart has had to fill in quite a few gaps in this department.

And yet I've rarely heard a Baroque Composer who's No Good, and there are crowds of them.
As you say - musically, a great leap forward.

Thanks to you & Mandryka and a few others for reading this thread and posting on it, anyway! :tiphat: 
Will continue to try and promote Love of the Baroque - but it's a lonely furrow. :lol: )


----------



## classical yorkist

I've listened to a huge amount of baroque music this past year, when I first started, and only really now am I getting to grips with how different 1600 is to 1650 and 1650 is to 1700 and 1700 is to 1750. The 'baroque' is so unwieldy I don't know how anyone with little more than a passing interest in it is supposed to assimilate and appreciate it. I happen to just love it all but I know from experience on here that most people despise the harpsichord and have no love for church organ music right from the get go (even you Ingelou have admitted to struggling with the harpsichord). How are we supposed to get me engaged if they despise the primary instrument of 150 years!? I think it takes more than just an open mind, perhaps there's something in the brains of listeners of early music? I adore medieval/Renaissance music too.


----------



## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> I've listened to a huge amount of baroque music this past year, when I first started, and only really now am I getting to grips with how different 1600 is to 1650 and 1650 is to 1700 and 1700 is to 1750. The 'baroque' is so unwieldy I don't know how anyone with little more than a passing interest in it is supposed to assimilate and appreciate it. I happen to just love it all but I know from experience on here that most people despise the harpsichord and have no love for church organ music right from the get go (even you Ingelou have admitted to struggling with the harpsichord). How are we supposed to get me engaged if they despise the primary instrument of 150 years!? I think it takes more than just an open mind, perhaps there's something in the brains of listeners of early music? I adore medieval/Renaissance music too.


I do love the sound of both the harpsichord and the organ - it's just that my concentration goes if they're played solo for more than about half an hour.

Concentration is my problem in any case - I can't listen to long symphonies, for instance, without something to do like painting or sewing or drawing or cleaning the kitchen.

I think it's because built into my brain is the 'folk model'.

For some reason I took to folk songs and folk dances from an early age, reciting nursery rhymes to myself in my cot, and dancing round the room at the age of three or four to my Dad's 78 records of Jimmy Shand the legendary Scottish melodeonist.

Because baroque has some similarity with these tunes, I remember the first classical piece that I played on my violin, aged 12, that really stunned me was Handel's March from Scipio. And I too adore Early Music (and some British and Irish folk songs are based on medieval pentatonic scales.)

What I'm saying is that I think you're spot on that what we like in musical terms isn't *just* nurture (although of course it's very important, and impossible to separate genes from environment in any assessment).

But for all that, my gut tells me that you're right about Brains!

For example, Taggart (like me) has some problems with the time when playing classical music on the piano, but when he's playing folk tunes, he gets it absolutely right.


----------



## Mandryka

Ingélou said:


> I do love the sound of both the harpsichord and the organ - it's just that my concentration goes if they're played solo for more than about half an hour.
> 
> .


Your average baroque organ piece lasts about 10 minutes I suppose. And a keyboard suite may last 15 I guess.


----------



## Mandryka

classical yorkist said:


> I've listened to a huge amount of baroque music this past year, when I first started, and only really now am I getting to grips with how different 1600 is to 1650 and 1650 is to 1700 and 1700 is to 1750. The 'baroque' is so unwieldy I don't know how anyone with little more than a passing interest in it is supposed to assimilate and appreciate it. I happen to just love it all but I know from experience on here that most people despise the harpsichord and have no love for church organ music right from the get go (even you Ingelou have admitted to struggling with the harpsichord). How are we supposed to get me engaged if they despise the primary instrument of 150 years!? I think it takes more than just an open mind, perhaps there's something in the brains of listeners of early music? I adore medieval/Renaissance music too.


It's certainly true that if someone doesn't like harpsichord or organ then they're going to find it hard to enjoy early keyboard music.


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## Ingélou

Mandryka said:


> Your average baroque organ piece lasts about 10 minutes I suppose. And a keyboard suite may last 15 I guess.


My point exactly! 
I'm fine on the individual pieces & suites, but not listening to long cds all the way through at one sitting - I adore Élisabeth Jacquet de La Guerre, but I listen to her in batches.

(And even long cds are fine for me to hear at one go if they have some variation or other instruments with them. I could listen to baroque ensembles till the cows come home.  )

I know that some of my friends on TC don't actually like the harpsichord sound (unlike me), but I think the real problem for the lovers of later classical music is that baroque music sounds samey to them - you get the usual joke about Vivaldi etc being 'sewing machine' music.

But of course actually there's loads of baroque music which is startling and experimental.

Still, good luck to all TC listeners. We all like what we like - I just wish there were more baroque-likers on this forum.


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## Jacck

while researching female composers for Art Rock's game, I stumpled upon *Élisabeth Jacquet de La Guerre - Cephale et Procris*. Higly recommended! I listened to it already twice in its entirety.


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## Ingélou

Heinrich Ignaz Franz Von Biber, Post 1:



Ingélou said:


> The next composer on the Wiki List is one that I've already listened to - Heinrich Ignaz Franz Von Biber.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Baroque_composers
> 
> Here's his guestbook, started by Science:tiphat::
> Heinrich Biber
> 
> We have two cds of Biber's Rosary Sonatas, one by Andrew Manze -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and one by Bizarrie Armoniche, violinist Riccardo Minasi.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We love and play both the cds. Manze I love for his sweet expressive tone, and Minasi & co I love for their spirited playing which emphasises in musical ways the theme of each Mystery.
> 
> Why do I love the Rosary/Mystery Sonatas in any case?
> 
> Well, the theme is important to me, as I'm a Catholic (converted 45 years ago) and I do combine listening with devotion to a certain extent.
> But also - the tunes are so beautiful, and the plangent string crossing and harmonies & the rhythms are so emotionally expressive - in my opinion.
> 
> I'll post again on Biber - this is number 1 out of 3 posts.
> Have a nice Saturday night, anyone reading this.


Taggart and I listened to Biber's *Missa Salisburgensis* disc 10 of The Baroque Box on Sunday morning. It's performed by Musica Antiqua Koln & the Gabrieli Consort. 
We found it pleasant but a bit insipid. It was particularly the voices that I found a bit underwhelming.

I was thinking that I maybe didn't cotton to Biber's choral works - that they were pretty but conventional, in comparison to his always fresh and innovative instrumental works.

Then I listened to Jordi Savall's version of Biber's *Missa Bruxellensis* on YouTube - and was blown away.
The voices - the instruments, especially the brass - are such a wonderful blend; this performance carries such conviction; the sound is so rich and beautiful.






But that's Jordi Savall for you! :--)

(So it's probably all down to the performance and the Missa Salisburgensis could be a wow experience for me too.)


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## Ingélou

Biber Post 2:

Still, it is Biber's instrumentation that I find really remarkable. What a talent.

I loved listening to his Partitas on YouTube:






This music is gorgeous - what a texture; how spirited; how lovely. how compelling. :tiphat:

Ironically it is performed by Musica Antiqua Koln (see above).


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## Ingélou

Biber Post 3:

I finish with what is, in my opinion, Biber's other work of genius (after the Rosary Sonatas).

Biber's Battalia - here Jordi Savall's version, which I've listened to many times on YouTube:






This is a really engaging work - so thoughtful, beautiful and moving.
And of course, Battalia is so amazing for its use of discord and other experimental techniques.

I listened to another version that I found on YouTube - 
Heinrich Ignaz Franz BIBER 
Sonata LA BATTALIA; Ensemble Baroque de Limoges - Direction/conductor : Jean-Michel Hasler






I'm not sure why this is shorter than the Savall - did they miss some repeats? 
I thought I'd like the Savall better and it is a more polished performance, but this is so wonderfully idiosyncratic in its instrumentation and dynamics. 
Not sure what the big booming string sound was in one of the sections - ultra bass viol? 
Brilliant, whatever - like ordnance.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here are some of the comments below the Jordi Savall video which you might find interesting:

*In the second movement, each section and even each stand plays a different melody though obviously they clash. Each melody represents a different nationality or group of people, and they are expressing their pride for their people before battle. Listen to each one individually and you will see what i mean.﻿*

*I thought the sound was corrupted...﻿
*
*It's amazing! It is exactly like a Charles Ives piece.﻿
*
*I've heard that it represented 3 drunks boasting to each other. But i can't confirm.﻿
*
*indeed, ive played some of them before realising they were mixed in this movement, incredibly! Disonances at this age! Biber was really a brave composer﻿
*
*This guy was Avant-garde before Avant-garde.﻿
*
*I must agree with many of the other comments -- The second movement was a revelation: I'd never heard such dissonance in early music before. The comparison with Charles Ives is apt.*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Next up in my Wiki listening project: Pachelbel.


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## Eusebius12

Ingélou said:


> I have no idea - because I didn't say that Sweelinck writes chamber music.
> 
> This is taken from the comment somebody else (Eugene S******** - hereafter E.S. )posted under the video of Buxtehude's sonatas that I linked to my post. The full quotation reads:
> 
> Buxtehude is indeed underappreciated since he is forced to be remembered as organist. No idea why it is necessary for musical academics to be so narrow minded in efforts of forming public perceptions. It is perplexing seeing the same thing happening again and again to the legacy of baroque composers. Vivaldi, Pachelbel, Buxtehude, Handel, Clerambault, Sweelink (the list goes on) - all has had written diverse and rich chamber repertoire that is just as good as their perceived main achievements... Unless music lovers are considered just incapable to judge by themselves... Nevermind... Buxtehude's chamber works are utterly sophisticated, complex and densely written. As always with northern baroque music structure reins supreme here. It just shows the fittingly rigorous compositional approach of Germanic school. J.S. Bach did not come out of nowhere... Original uncompromising music. Thanks for sharing.


Buxtehude is a giant, an extraordinary polyphonic sense and density reminiscent of Bach. I long thought of him as dry as dust, producing long and abstruse but formidable organ fugues, but as you say his chamber music (and his choral works also incidentally) have thematic variety and a fine ear for colour. Sweelinck also was a giant, but I would certainly have Buxtehude in my top 10-15 composers. Sweelinck is possibly the greatest composer from the Netherlands proper, along with perhaps Jacob Obrecht and Willem Pijper (Diepenbrock not far behind)


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## Ingélou

Eusebius12 said:


> Buxtehude is a giant, an extraordinary polyphonic sense and density reminiscent of Bach. I long thought of him as dry as dust, producing long and abstruse but formidable organ fugues, but *as you say* his chamber music (and his choral works also incidentally) have thematic variety and a fine ear for colour. Sweelinck also was a giant, but I would certainly have Buxtehude in my top 10-15 composers. Sweelinck is possibly the greatest composer from the Netherlands proper, along with perhaps Jacob Obrecht and Willem Pijper (Diepenbrock not far behind)


Not me - it's E.S., the commentator that I quote from the YouTube video.

But thanks for your observations re Buxtehude & Sweelinck. :tiphat:

My top five (i.e. favourite) Baroque posters would stay the same - Lully, Biber, Vivaldi, Handel and Bach - but the rest of my top 15 would be constantly fluctuating, according to whom I was listening to at the time.

There are just so many good baroque composers.


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## Eusebius12

Damn attributions 

Actually I would put Buxtehude in my top 15 composers of _all time_, he is colossal. Of baroque composers, I would put Bach and Handel ahead of him, but not Vivaldi. Palestrina and Byrd (if they are baroque, they straddle eras) also I think I would place in front of Buxtehude. Then following him, (after Vivaldi) composers like Domenico Scarlatti, Victoria, Monteverdi, Charpentier, Rameau, Corelli, Veracini etc. Buxtehude has the concentration of Bach without having quite the memorability of JSB (or Handel). If I couldn't be Bach or Handel, I would take Buxtehude next. Not only was he a great composer but he must have been a formidable keyboard executant.


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## Ariasexta

I am always keen to discover lesser known composers from the period. I have a few german 17th century composers` musical anthologies, I find Buxtehude always standing out in complexity among them so far. I have been thinking why, I would not say other compsers than Buxtehude of the time are relatively untalented, that will be wrong, because different financial environment could result in some more or less economic ideas in writing, it means somehow they had to compose realitsically. On the other hand, Lubeck as a northern German city enjoyed a wealthy environment for being a nearest German city to Danmark, the center of European trade since 16th century. Great Buxtehude surely had some huge advantages working in Lubeck. 

Abendmusik, a special event that Butehude was known to be obliged to, was known to be one of the most prominent regular musical events of the time. But the rest of composers like Augustin Pfleger, Johann Fortsch, Johann Ph Krieger wrote sacred music for small private ensembles in their noble employer`s palaces, and their music indeed lack some shiny spots like Buxtehude`s. The other comparable regular musical event are Collegium Musicum Hamburg, founded by Matthias Weckmann, and Collegium Musicum Leipzig which our great Telemann and great Bach had directed. 

Maybe, good singers can inspired composers to write better music, we can guess, Dietrich Buxtehude and Georg Philipp Telemann and Johann S Bach must have been lucky to meet greatest singers of their time.


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## Mandryka

Don’t you guys find the Buxtehude toccatas and preludes a bit too bombastic, as if they’re really just vehicles for a virtuoso display? I mean, there ain’t much spirituality, interiority.


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## Ariasexta

Mandryka said:


> Don't you guys find the Buxtehude toccatas and preludes a bit too bombastic, as if they're really just vehicles for a virtuoso display? I mean, there ain't much spirituality, interiority.


No, looks like you have to yet the bias straight. Toccata and prelude are indeed meant for showing techniques and imaginative power of the player. They were mostly impromtu compositions we are lucky to have them today:tiphat:


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## Gallus

Eusebius12 said:


> Damn attributions
> 
> Actually I would put Buxtehude in my top 15 composers of _all time_, he is colossal. Of baroque composers, I would put Bach and Handel ahead of him, but not Vivaldi. Palestrina and Byrd (if they are baroque, they straddle eras) also I think I would place in front of Buxtehude. Then following him, (after Vivaldi) composers like Domenico Scarlatti, Victoria, Monteverdi, Charpentier, Rameau, Corelli, Veracini etc. Buxtehude has the concentration of Bach without having quite the memorability of JSB (or Handel). If I couldn't be Bach or Handel, I would take Buxtehude next. Not only was he a great composer but he must have been a formidable keyboard executant.


Not a fan of Purcell?


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## Mandryka

Ariasexta said:


> No, looks like you have to yet the bias straight. Toccata and prelude are indeed meant for showing techniques and imaginative power of the player. They were mostly impromtu compositions we are lucky to have them today:tiphat:


These things were played before and after church services I suppose, as well as in organ concerts. I do think that stylus phantasticus offers potential for quite subtle, spiritual, expression. I listened to a slow and poetically expressive Buxwv 140 from Rübsam the other day -- the potential is there.


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## Ariasexta

Mandryka said:


> These things were played before and after church services I suppose, as well as in organ concerts. I do think that stylus phantasticus offers potential for quite subtle, spiritual, expression. I listened to a slow and poetically expressive Buxwv 140 from Rübsam the other day -- the potential is there.


Talking about Stylus, I think Marc Charpentier`s conservatism in emotional expression would make perfect contrast. You can listen to both. Buxtehude never shamess from using expressive melodies.

The contrast is also a part of the charm here.


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## Eusebius12

Eusebius12 said:


> Damn attributions
> 
> Actually I would put Buxtehude in my top 15 composers of _all time_, he is colossal. Of baroque composers, I would put Bach and Handel ahead of him, but not Vivaldi. Palestrina and Byrd (if they are baroque, they straddle eras) also I think I would place in front of Buxtehude. Then following him, (after Vivaldi) composers like Domenico Scarlatti, Victoria, Monteverdi, Charpentier, Rameau, Corelli, Veracini etc. Buxtehude has the concentration of Bach without having quite the memorability of JSB (or Handel). If I couldn't be Bach or Handel, I would take Buxtehude next. Not only was he a great composer but he must have been a formidable keyboard executant.


I really should mention Purcell, Telemann, Froberger, Zelenka, Tallis, and Gibbons as well. Not to forget the fascinating Monsieur de St Colombe, whose gamba music is also reminiscent of the work of Bach, this time the cello suites. No mean compliment that.


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## Eusebius12

I see Buxtehude as a culmination of traditions, just like his successor JS Bach. Buxtehude incorporates the Italian and the North German traditions in chamber, choral and keyboard works, and is the continuator in keyboard terms of Frescobaldi, Froberger and Sweelinck, and the inspiration for Kuhnau and Bach. Buxtehude probably doesn't reflect the French style as well as Bach did, but I think it is also true to say that Bach also leaned more heavily towards the North German and Italian schools as well.

JS Bach apparently married a good singer and had a good vocal ensemble within his own family, and of course in Leipzig had access to the best choral singers in the city, I am sure there were several who weren't too shabby. They had to be pretty good to be able to succesfully handle Bach's vocal writing which is phenomenally difficult.


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## Eusebius12

Gallus said:


> Not a fan of Purcell?


Yes I am but I forgot to include him, I have corrected that...


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## Ingélou

Eusebius12 said:


> Yes I am but I forgot to include him, I have corrected that...


Any friend of Purcell's is a friend of mine! :tiphat:


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## Eusebius12

Ingélou said:


> Any friend of Purcell's is a friend of mine! :tiphat:


Purcell was an incredible genius, somewhat unfulfilled perhaps, but still immensely productive. His Funeral Misic for Queen Mary is probably my favourite piece of his. The anthems are very fine also. He seems to be a touch...lost between schools or categories. Not as performed or remarked upon around the world as would befit his status. Except for that damn "When I am laid in earth" (although it is truthfully a beautiful aria)


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## Mandryka

I saw Dido once, it was a nice night out, I remember it was somewhere like Cadogan Hall and maybe Philip Pickett was involved, choreographed and staged, and there was some sort of special edition with previously lost music. I think it was some sort of anniversary year, 2009 maybe, there was more Purcell than usual around in London. I just can't recall too many details. I certainly wouldn't mind seeing it again if it was sympathetically given.

And there's a song about someone kissing which I remember was fun, Sweeter than Roses. I'm sure there are fun songs to hear. When I was at school I liked one that Deller Consort sang called something like Kiss my Aarse.






The sonatas are perfectly pleasant, as are the suites. I'm glad to have heard them.

But it's the music for viol consort where my real interest lies, it's there that I hear something unpredictable and imaginative and challenging.


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## Ingélou

*P is for Pachelbel - and for Pedal-Harpsichord...
*
Starting this morning my tasting of Pachelbel - the next name in my project of sampling the entire Wiki list of Baroque Composers, see OP - I came across this video of a 'pedal harpsichord', which is a fascinating instrument, and what a sound!
(Well, the sound is gorgeous till nearly the end - the pedals on their own are a bit kazoo-like.  )






I didn't know they existed. But here's a link to some more information. 
http://www.baroquemusic.org/pedalharpsichord.html

Has anyone any experience of listening to (or playing) this delightful instrument?


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## Eusebius12

Mandryka said:


> I saw Dido once, it was a nice night out, I remember it was somewhere like Cadogan Hall and maybe Philip Pickett was involved, choreographed and staged, and there was some sort of special edition with previously lost music. I think it was some sort of anniversary year, 2009 maybe, there was more Purcell than usual around in London. I just can't recall too many details. I certainly wouldn't mind seeing it again if it was sympathetically given.
> 
> And there's a song about someone kissing which I remember was fun, Sweeter than Roses. I'm sure there are fun songs to hear. When I was at school I liked one that Deller Consort sang called something like Kiss my Aarse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The sonatas are perfectly pleasant, as are the suites. I'm glad to have heard them.
> 
> But it's the music for viol consort where my real interest lies, it's there that I hear something unpredictable and imaginative and challenging.


Do you mean the keyboard suites? They are fine pieces, probably without champions, unless its someone like Davitt Moroney. Are you familiar with the consort music of William Lawes? The English broken consort, quite experimental in its 17th century manifestation (I think of Orlando Gibbons as well, and John Jenkins wrote fine consort music if not as experimental as Lawes or Gibbons)


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## premont

Ingélou said:


> *P is for Pachelbel - and for Pedal-Harpsichord...
> *
> Starting this morning my tasting of Pachelbel - the next name in my project of sampling the entire Wiki list of Baroque Composers, see OP - I came across this video of a 'pedal harpsichord', which is a fascinating instrument, and what a sound!
> (Well, the sound is gorgeous till nearly the end - the pedals on their own are a bit kazoo-like.  )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't know they existed. But here's a link to some more information.
> http://www.baroquemusic.org/pedalharpsichord.html
> 
> Has anyone any experience of listening to (or playing) this delightful instrument?


The pedalboard seems only to contain a reed (organ) stop, so this is not a pedal harpsichord, but a manual harpsichord with an added pedal organ stop

There are several recordings made on pedal harpsichord proper (mostly music by Bach), that is a manual harpsichord with added pedal containing string stops.

I have searched some of the recordings I recall from the top of my head. Unfortunately many seem to be out of print, but I found these, which I think arel recommendable:

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/de...tian-Bach-1685-1750-Klavierwerke/hnum/4932662

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pro-Cembal...qid=1536408358&sr=8-4&keywords=douglas+amrine

https://www.amazon.co.uk/6-Triosona...=1536408436&sr=1-11&keywords=bach+power+biggs


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## Ingélou

premont said:


> The pedalboard seems only to contain a reed (organ) stop, so this is not a pedal harpsichord, but a manual harpsichord with an added pedal organ stop
> 
> There are several recordings made on pedal harpsichord proper (mostly music by Bach), that is a manual harpsichord with added pedal containing string stops.
> 
> I have searched some of the recordings I recall from the top of my head. Unfortunately many seem to be out of print, but I found these, which I think arel recommendable:
> 
> https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/de...tian-Bach-1685-1750-Klavierwerke/hnum/4932662
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pro-Cembal...qid=1536408358&sr=8-4&keywords=douglas+amrine
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/6-Triosona...=1536408436&sr=1-11&keywords=bach+power+biggs


Thank you very much, premont. :tiphat:

I shall enjoy exploring the links and finding out more...


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## Ingélou

Eusebius12 said:


> Do you mean the keyboard suites? They are fine pieces, probably without champions, unless its someone like Davitt Moroney. *Are you familiar with the consort music of William Lawes?* The English broken consort, quite experimental in its 17th century manifestation (I think of Orlando Gibbons as well, and John Jenkins wrote fine consort music if not as experimental as Lawes or Gibbons)


I think the answer is *yes *- Mandryka posts about *William Lawes* above, pp. 19 onwards, posts #277, #286, #369, #372, #376, #377, #378, #382, #383, #387, and #389. :lol:

I looked up the posts because William Lawes is a favourite of mine (especially his harp consorts), and Mandryka didn't seem to rate him very highly at first. I felt hurt on Lawes' account!!! 

But towards the end, Mandryka seems to mellow towards him, at least to some of the performances of Lawes' music that he listened to - and of course I hope he's changed his mind *completely* by now! 

Mandryka knows a lot about viol players and composers too, so I'm sure you can have a good chat with him about John Jenkins (another one I like) and his ilk.

Over to you, Mandryka! :tiphat:


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## classical yorkist

Ingélou said:


> Thank you very much, premont. :tiphat:
> 
> I shall enjoy exploring the links and finding out more...


http://www.baroquemusic.org/25Web.html

http://www.baroquemusic.org/759Web.html


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## premont

classical yorkist said:


> http://www.baroquemusic.org/25Web.html
> 
> http://www.baroquemusic.org/759Web.html


Yes, the good thing is, that these can be downloaded for free (though only in mp3 quality, which doesn't quite does the instruments full justice). I think the best recordings here are the ones by Rogg and Mikulas. Danby is heavy going and Ahlgrimm doesn't use the instrument to the full.


----------



## Eusebius12

Ingélou said:


> I think the answer is *yes *- Mandryka posts about *William Lawes* above, pp. 19 onwards, posts #277, #286, #369, #372, #376, #377, #378, #382, #383, #387, and #389. :lol:
> 
> I looked up the posts because William Lawes is a favourite of mine (especially his harp consorts), and Mandryka didn't seem to rate him very highly at first. I felt hurt on Lawes' account!!!
> 
> But towards the end, Mandryka seems to mellow towards him, at least to some of the performances of Lawes' music that he listened to - and of course I hope he's changed his mind *completely* by now!
> 
> Mandryka knows a lot about viol players and composers too, so I'm sure you can have a good chat with him about John Jenkins (another one I like) and his ilk.
> 
> Over to you, Mandryka! :tiphat:


Sorry, I never got around to reading all the posts in this thread. I suppose I'll get around to it 
Incidentally, 
https://www.justwood.com/csi/2042232832/i/pzi/aroundtuitcheeseboard.png?_t=1614144

And yes there is something fairly radical about William Lawes' style. Not Henry's, he perhaps was more famous in their respective lifetimes but Henry seems much more conventional, even though he may have been an oft-times collaborator with the Bard. Perhaps that kind of music was more suitable to set the lyrics in his plays to.


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## classical yorkist

premont said:


> Yes, the good thing is, that these can be downloaded for free (though only in mp3 quality, which doesn't quite does the instruments full justice). I think the best recordings here are the ones by Rogg and Mikulas. Danby is heavy going and Ahlgrimm doesn't use the instrument to the full.


I tend to stream them online, it's better than not hearing them. I particularly like their series of Bach performed on Silberman organs.

http://www.baroquemusic.org/silbeng.html

http://www.baroquemusic.org/silbcdeng.html


----------



## Mandryka

Eusebius12 said:


> Sorry, I never got around to reading all the posts in this thread. I suppose I'll get around to it
> Incidentally,
> https://www.justwood.com/csi/2042232832/i/pzi/aroundtuitcheeseboard.png?_t=1614144
> 
> And yes there is something fairly radical about William Lawes' style. Not Henry's, he perhaps was more famous in their respective lifetimes but Henry seems much more conventional, even though he may have been an oft-times collaborator with the Bard. Perhaps that kind of music was more suitable to set the lyrics in his plays to.


Can you give me some examples of Lawes at his most radical? I like very much the solo viol music that he wrote, the consort music i know less well.


----------



## Ingélou

Eusebius12 said:


> Sorry, I never got around to reading all the posts in this thread. I suppose I'll get around to it
> Incidentally,
> https://www.justwood.com/csi/2042232832/i/pzi/aroundtuitcheeseboard.png?_t=1614144
> 
> And yes there is something fairly radical about William Lawes' style. Not Henry's, he perhaps was more famous in their respective lifetimes but Henry seems much more conventional, even though he may have been an oft-times collaborator with the Bard. Perhaps that kind of music was more suitable to set the lyrics in his plays to.


Thanks for the Round Tuit!

And no need to read all the previous thread - I wouldn't want to catch up on 500 plus posts myself. It's just that I remembered the earlier posts shrugging at my darling :kiss: William Lawes' reputation, which after centuries of neglect is currently riding high.

Glad you're here now. Always grateful for anyone posting about baroque music on TC in general and this thread in particular. Thank you, all.

My fiddle teacher, who's an HIP violist and violinist with various baroque ensembles, values William Lawes because, like you, he finds him 'experimental'. 
(So it must be true!  But starting so late, I don't know enough about conventional baroque style to know whether or not anything is radical. Still, I'm here to learn, and to celebrate.)

*BaRoQuE RULeth, OkkOkk! *

Which are your particular favourites from William Lawes' oeuvre? :tiphat:


----------



## premont

classical yorkist said:


> I tend to stream them online, it's better than not hearing them. I particularly like their series of Bach performed on Silberman organs.
> 
> http://www.baroquemusic.org/silbeng.html
> 
> http://www.baroquemusic.org/silbcdeng.html


Yes, that's a good set. Highly recommended.


----------



## Mandryka

Anthony Newman made a recording of the Bach trio sonatas where he played the outer movements on some sort of organ, and the central movements on pedal harpsichord.


----------



## Guest

Interesting article on pedal board harpsichords by someone who actually crafted one on a custom order -

http://www.hubharp.com/musings_pedalharp.htm

This link leads to a series of articles about building and repairing harpsichords (lesson learned the hard way when building my harpsichord - measure twice - cut once... oh, and read the instruction manual, don't try to "wing" it, eh?).

View attachment 107612


View attachment 107613


View attachment 107614


There's also a riveting edge-of-your-seat page turner on "Staining your spinet" that is a "must read"...

http://www.hubharp.com/technical_articles2/soundboard_index.htm

And lastly a page of further resources -

http://www.hubharp.com/links.htm

And a link to a pedal harpsichord performance of Bach "Toccata and Fugue in D minor, BWV 565" by E. Power Biggs - "Bach on the Pedal Harpsichord". It's subtitled "A new sound from America's favorite organist".






and the "Fantasie and Fugue in G minor, BWV 542" -






Wonderful thread by the way - my compliments! - :tiphat:

- Syd


----------



## Ingélou

Sydney Nova Scotia said:


> ...
> There's also a riveting edge-of-your-seat page turner on "Staining your spinet" that is a "must read"...


Yes, well.....! :lol:


----------



## Mandryka

This is a Bach pedal harpsichord recording which is worth catching I think, at least for the trio sonatas









I'm going to hazard a guess and say that it's not equally tuned. I don't have the booklet to check. It's very good I think.


----------



## Mandryka

Ariasexta said:


> No, looks like you have to yet the bias straight. Toccata and prelude are indeed meant for showing techniques and imaginative power of the player. They were mostly impromtu compositions we are lucky to have them today:tiphat:


A little bit of investigation into this suggests that matters were more complex. Some scholars, notably Siegbert Rampe, argue that Buxtehude intended his organ compositions as models for study for the organ student who needed to learn improvisation. If they were played at all by Buxtehude or his students, Rampe argues, they would probably have been played on a clavichord or pedal clavichord.

I actually think this is rather interesting


----------



## Mandryka

Mandryka said:


> Can you give me some examples of Lawes at his most radical? I like very much the solo viol music that he wrote, the consort music i know less well.


I'm going to suggest a tentative answer to my own question: apart from some of the solo music there are two Pavans which I think are innovative and bold, the Pavan on the 9th Royal Consort, and the Pavan in the Eights for Three Lyra Viols. In fact all the music for three Lyra Viols as played by Dunford (and _not _as played by Fretwork) I suspect there are disputed interpretation questions in Lawes. I very much recommend Dunford's recording.


----------



## premont

Mandryka said:


> A little bit of investigation into this suggests that matters were more complex. Some scholars, notably Siegbert Rampe, argue that Buxtehude intended his organ compositions as models for study for the organ student who needed to learn improvisation. If they were played at all by Buxtehude or his students, Rampe argues, they would probably have been played on a clavichord or pedal clavichord.
> 
> I actually think this is rather interesting


Why should Buxtehude not have played his works on the Scherer/Stellwagen "Totentanz" organ?
And a rendering on the clavichord seems to me to spoil the drama and the contrasts in the music completely.


----------



## premont

Mandryka said:


> This is a Bach pedal harpsichord recording which is worth catching I think, at least for the trio sonatas
> 
> View attachment 107618
> 
> 
> I'm going to hazard a guess and say that it's not equally tuned. I don't have the booklet to check. It's very good I think.


I cannot find anything about the tuning, which usually points to equal tuning. Well, a listening test seems necessary. I have to find the CD.


----------



## Mandryka

premont said:


> Why should Buxtehude not have played his works on the Scherer/Stellwagen "Totentanz" organ?
> And a rendering on the clavichord seems to me to spoil the drama and the contrasts in the music completely.


Well without seeing the paper I can't say, I think the idea is that his duties as organist specified improvisation. There's a review (not positive, like you she says she can't imagine him _not_ playing his own written compositions) of this on the web here, by Snyder. It's annoying because I think the area is interesting enough to make me want to read Rampe's papers, Rampe's no fool, but I just just can't get hold of them

https://sscm-jscm.org/v15/no1/snyder.html

What you gain by the clavichord is _delicacy, nuance and precision_.

As far as contrasts go, you're coming from a mindset which wants the sections delineated by subtly and tastefully contrasting timbres - with all the consequent _potential_ challenges of coherence, unity and flow. I think the changing textures of the music demarcates the sections sufficiently.

What do you think of (Leonhardt's) harpsichord performance of the Boehm G minor prelude?


----------



## KenOC

Here's a wonderful Bach pedal harpsichord recording. Never released on CD, I think. There's a fine digitized version of this floating around if you can find it.


----------



## Mandryka

KenOC said:


> Here's a wonderful Bach pedal harpsichord recording. Never released on CD, I think. There's a fine digitized version of this floating around if you can find it.


I don't like the sound of that instrument, it sounds industrial. I haven't heard that recording but the trio sonatas recording is not very subtle. Or maybe it's just not possible to play a Challis in a subtle way.

It's got a 16' stop









Apparently some German instruments were as big as that as early as the 16th century



> On a coutume de dire que les clavecins allemands sont fortement influencés par l'orgue. En effet, dès le XVIème siècle, les facteurs de clavecin multiplient les registres, c'est-à-dire construisent plusieurs rangées de sautereaux qui pincent la même corde à différents endroits, obtenant tantôt un son très flûté, tantôt un son nasal. Ce souci de variété les amène encore à enrichir le plan de corde classique (8'8'4') par des rangées supplémentaires de cordes de 16' ou 2'.
> 
> Les problèmes de constructions que cela pose seront brillamment résolus par des facteurs comme
> la famille Hass de Hamburg . Ils construisent les plus grands clavecins de l'histoire : 3 claviers avec 16'8'8'4'2', avec jeu nasal et luth, ou 2 claviers avec 8'8'8'4'4' !


https://www.clavecin-en-france.org/spip.php?article23

This is from an essay by Yves Rechsteiner which I think is very interesting.


----------



## Ingélou

Mandryka, are you saying that you don't like Buxtehude because you don't find his organ pieces 'spiritual and interior' enough?

Whereas you like the clavichord for its delicacy, nuance and precision, which makes you think that delicacy is something to aim for in an organ performance?

And in the above post you don't like the pedal harpsichord because it sounds 'industrial' and you criticise the trio sonatas for not being 'subtle' enough?

It seems that subtlety is your personal taste, then.

For me, I admit, a _habit_ of playing the organ so that it sounded delicate and subtle would be denaturing the instrument (though of course organs can be subtle and nuanced when required; I like premont's point about 'drama and contrasts').

And the spirituality in Buxtehude's magnificent organ works - for me - comes from the epiphany I gain from them of the Glory of God. The music is exterior - the response is interior.

There's nothing more awe-inducing - to my mind - than the peals of joy and praise uttered by a huge historic organ at the end of a service in an English cathedral - I attended many in my younger days, at Ripon, Durham and York Minster. 

But *à chacun son goût*! :tiphat:


----------



## Ingélou

Thanks for all the information on pedal-harpsichords, everyone. :tiphat:


----------



## classical yorkist

As a final note on pedal harpsichords there is also the lute harpsichord to consider. Apparently Bach had one in his home. I find this set of recordings a worthy listen.

http://baroquemusic.org/740Web.html


----------



## Mandryka

Ingélou said:


> For me, I admit, a _habit_ of playing the organ so that it sounded delicate and subtle would be denaturing the instrument


 I don't believe that baroque organs are essentially unsubtle and indelicate instruments. So, for example, even colourful registrations and the deep sound which comes out of 16' pipes can be made to sound sweet rather than imposing and domineering.

Even if you thought a piece of polyphonic music had an essentially choral inspiration -- like a choral fantasy -- the model for performance may be more appropriately an Italianate madrigal or motet by Gombert or Ockeghem than a huge setting of a mass for massed choirs!



Ingélou said:


> (though of course organs can be subtle and nuanced when required; I like premont's point about 'drama and contrasts').


If you're playing an organ, and you think a piece of music has sections ABC, then it's perfectly appropriate (though not, IMO, obligatory) to change registration when passing from A to B and from B to C.

However, the contrasts may already be sufficiently there in the textures and affects of the music to permit a performance to work even on an instrument like a harpsichord or a clavichord -- that's to say, in that Bux piece on clavichord, you don't actually need the relief of contrasting organ registrations to present the structure of the music. You can create contrast and relief through phrasing, tempo, embellishment etc .



Ingélou said:


> And the spirituality in Buxtehude's magnificent organ works - for me - comes from the epiphany I gain from them of the Glory of God. The music is exterior - the response is interior.


And in polyphonic music there's an interior aspect too -- the inner drama of the voices. There's a way of interpreting the music so that the poetry comes from the tensions and rapports amongst the voices.


----------



## Taggart

Disc 28 of










Excellent playing on a fine instrument. This shows what the organ is capable of when a master - J S Bach - writes for it. A range of styles from the D Minor Toccata and Fugue through a Fantasia to variations on a hymn tune to a Pastorale. They provide a range of timbre, dynamics, tempi and melody to delight and entrance.


----------



## Ingélou

Johann Sebastian Bach: "Ein feste Burg" BWV 720 on YouTube - this was one of the pieces that Taggart & I listened to driving to and from Mass this morning. 
(We go to church at St Benet's Church, Beccles, which is about 15 miles away, because 25 years ago my Mum wanted to go there and we fell in love with the people, the beautiful building, and the traditional liturgy.)






I love this tune - Martin Luther's Hymn - and it brings back a memory - when I was doing a student holiday job as a care assistant at a Cheshire Home for the disabled in the early 1970s.

I wasn't a Catholic at that date (God's little joke saw me convert a year later), but there were a lot of very nice young European Catholic Missionary priests doing a placement at the Home, from an order called The White Fathers.

One of them, Father Joachim, was German and very musical. He was playing the piano for us in the nurses' common room one evening, but it was difficult to find tunes in common.

Finally, I thought I'd cracked it, remembering Ein Feste Burg, which was, after all, *German*.

I said to him, 'Joachim - do you know Martin Luther's hymn?'

He replied: 'Certainly *not*!' :lol:


----------



## Eusebius12

Mandryka said:


> Can you give me some examples of Lawes at his most radical? I like very much the solo viol music that he wrote, the consort music i know less well.


This piece is very exploratory, with surprising polyphonic turns and dissonances:






Just the opening of this has some remarkable harmonies:






Listen to the entirety of that link if you get the chance. I hope though that some struggling artist gets some youtube dollars out of it.


----------



## Eusebius12

Ingélou said:


> Thanks for the Round Tuit!
> 
> And no need to read all the previous thread - I wouldn't want to catch up on 500 plus posts myself. It's just that I remembered the earlier posts shrugging at my darling :kiss: William Lawes' reputation, which after centuries of neglect is currently riding high.
> 
> Glad you're here now. Always grateful for anyone posting about baroque music on TC in general and this thread in particular. Thank you, all.
> 
> My fiddle teacher, who's an HIP violist and violinist with various baroque ensembles, values William Lawes because, like you, he finds him 'experimental'.
> (So it must be true!  But starting so late, I don't know enough about conventional baroque style to know whether or not anything is radical. Still, I'm here to learn, and to celebrate.)
> 
> *BaRoQuE RULeth, OkkOkk! *
> 
> Which are your particular favourites from William Lawes' oeuvre? :tiphat:


Your welcome for the round tuit 
I can't say that I have immersed myself in his works, but I was struck when listening to some of his pieces how remarkably individual they were. I quoted some examples in my above post. I'm very diverse in my tastes, it makes it difficult to 'cover' all the composers I esteem highly with any degree of justice. But I love the consort music, this puts William Lawes amongst the greats of the period, really of English composers of any period. I love baroque music also, just as I love classical, romantic, renaissance (and have a strong interest in Byzantine and some S and W Asian styles of music as well). I always enjoy discussing the music I love, so thanks right back at you


----------



## Eusebius12

Ingélou said:


> Yes, well.....! :lol:


Reminds me of something Beethoven might've done....well on a keyboard instrument of a kind


----------



## Mandryka

Eusebius12 said:


> This piece is very exploratory, with surprising polyphonic turns and dissonances:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just the opening of this has some remarkable harmonies:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Listen to the entirety of that link if you get the chance. I hope though that some struggling artist gets some youtube dollars out of it.


Yes I've never heard that G minor Fantasia without an organ before. I don't have that Phantasm recording - I've got their Royal Fantasies and organ consorts recording. It's extraordinary that the whole thing is sitting there on YouTube.


----------



## Mandryka

Ingélou said:


> *P is for Pachelbel - and for Pedal-Harpsichord...
> *
> Starting this morning my tasting of Pachelbel - the next name in my project of sampling the entire Wiki list of Baroque Composers, see OP - I came across this video of a 'pedal harpsichord', which is a fascinating instrument, and what a sound!
> (Well, the sound is gorgeous till nearly the end - the pedals on their own are a bit kazoo-like.  )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't know they existed. But here's a link to some more information.
> http://www.baroquemusic.org/pedalharpsichord.html
> 
> Has anyone any experience of listening to (or playing) this delightful instrument?


You didn't seem to get vey far with Pachelbel! Have a listen to this






and this


----------



## Ingélou

Mandryka said:


> You didn't seem to get vey far with Pachelbel! Have a listen to this ...


You are right. I haven't got far - but I haven't finished yet, not by a long chalk.

I had only just started on Pachelbel when I was intrigued by the pedal-harpsichord and posted about that - these days I don't always wait till I've finished the composer before posting.

I wanted to ask about the instrument, and the replies make me glad that I did.

Thanks very much for the suggestions, Mandryka - I will give them a listen. :tiphat:

I have amassed a few YouTube bits and pieces, and am also going to look at the videos in the OP (by Lukecash12 :tiphat of the Pachelbel Composer Guest Book - 
Pachelbel anyone?

One thing I won't bother with is the Canon - though I still love it, despite its ubiquity.

So here's the only version I'm mentioning - a fun video, Canon on a Cannon, my fiddle teacher's quartet in Sparrow's Nest Park, Lowestoft. (He's the one with the ponytail, now sadly snipped off.  )


----------



## Larkenfield

Mandryka said:


>


Lovely Pachelbel organ by the venerable Mr. Rübsam. Of all the Baroque composers I've heard, I feel that Pachelbel is one of the warmest, most lyrical, sincere, and singing. There's a wonderful flow to his music, a certain pleasing simplicity, and it's no wonder that his Canon became famous.


----------



## Ariasexta

Some magazin critics emphasize the historical value over musical value of the baroque music, I must say these people have no basic respect for music as a form of art, and they belong to people who pretend to be erudite by compounding what is immediately apparent to them, never really think for a moment by their own.

Historical value of baroque music is an undoubted fact, but what exactly is the historical value of a piece of music? To treat it as an artefact? it can be no more ignorant !! An artefact is the testament of a piece of history by leaving out whatever artistic value of it, we all know it. But if it is a also a piece of art besides being a testament to history, the artistic value is never to be overshadowed by its whatever historical value!!* Art is art, not because it has historical value. * Maybe you do not have to love a piece of art, at least be considerate that some other love it. No body criticizes a baroque painting, does not mean everyone love it the same much, because it is apparently nobody can replicate its value no matter how close it can be remade, we need the same respect for period music.

I am still very angry about the comment conjuring that the work has historical value more than musical value in a review.


----------



## Larkenfield

Baroque is full of wonders. Most of the composers were not full of themselves -- even Handel had a certain humility before God -- and the music was not really about them, the ups and downs of their personal lives unlike during the later period of Romanticism. It was more about discovering the immutable laws of nature ( The music of the spheres! ) and composing along certain principles of harmony, rhythm, and counterpoint. I still can't imagine anyone with greater knowledge of the principles of harmony and counterpoint than Bach-and it's been almost 300 years. He was admired and studied.

Baroque seems far more related to absolute music. There's something impersonal about it that can be pleasing and beneficial. Since the llistener is not being burdened with the personal concerns of the composer, it can be refreshing not knowing. Most of the works are beautifully organized and constructed. There's craft and logic and a certain sense of rightness in the expression of their ideas.

Perhaps the problem that some have with it is that it seems to be too identified with a stuffy, stiff and formal world that no longer exists of a spoiled aristocracy and social privilege... It no longer seems connected or relevant to the modern world. I'd say that its relevance most likely depends on the spirit of how it's played. Imaginative Baroque with abandon... and why can't more harpsichords sound as ravishing as this one? It's beautiful!-


----------



## Ingélou

Larkenfield said:


> Baroque is full of wonders. Most of the composers were not full of themselves -- even Handel had a certain humility before God -- and the music is not really about them, the ups and downs of their personal lives. It was more about discovering the certain laws of nature and composing along certain wonderful principles of harmony, rhythm, and counterpoint. It's far more related to being absolute music because there's a certain quality of being impersonal and that the music is not necessarily representing the composer's personal feelings at that time. In other words, the listener is not being burdened with the personal circumstances of the composer's life. It can be refreshing not knowing. Most of the works are beautifully organized and constructed. There's craft and logic and a sense of proportion in the expression of their ideas. Perhaps the problem that some people have with it is that it seems to be a reflection of the old age of aristocracy and social privilege. Maybe that's true but maybe we were a part of that in a past life.


Excellent post! :tiphat:

(PS - And even if we weren't part of it in a past life, it informs who we are now. Who'd want to reject Shakespeare's art because he had to tug the forelock to the Lord Chamberlain? )


----------



## Gallus

I've been utterly charmed by this clever little aria of Handel's






What's miraculous is how Handel was able to compose dozens upon dozens of such equally lovely songs (the ones he didn't steal, at least...).


----------



## Ingélou

Gallus said:


> I've been utterly charmed by this clever little aria of Handel's
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Händel - Nasconde l´ usignol - Simone Kermes - Soprano - from the opera "Deidamia" - in case the video disappears.)
> 
> ....


Have just listened - and it is indeed lovely. Thanks for sharing! :tiphat:


----------



## Marinera

Ariasexta said:


> Some magazin critics emphasize the historical value over musical value of the baroque music, I must say these people have no basic respect for music as a form of art, and they belong to people who pretend to be erudite by compounding what is immediately apparent to them, never really think for a moment by their own.
> 
> Historical value of baroque music is an undoubted fact, but what exactly is the historical value of a piece of music? To treat it as an artefact? it can be no more ignorant !! An artefact is the testament of a piece of history by leaving out whatever artistic value of it, we all know it. But if it is a also a piece of art besides being a testament to history, the artistic value is never to be overshadowed by its whatever historical value!!* Art is art, not because it has historical value. * Maybe you do not have to love a piece of art, at least be considerate that some other love it. No body criticizes a baroque painting, does not mean everyone love it the same much, because it is apparently nobody can replicate its value no matter how close it can be remade, we need the same respect for period music.
> 
> I am still very angry about the comment conjuring that the work has historical value more than musical value in a review.


The critic's comment says more about him and his limited musical perception in regards to baroque music than anything about baroque music at all. 
It is regrettable then, that such opinions are touted as objective facts when they are nothing of the sort. Also, such comments about any art form and music are very common. Sometimes that is because of certain agendas, and also lack of understanding.

If he were not a critic but a creative it would be more interesting to observe the end result of his beliefs in the form of art or music he would have produced, some music styles were sort of reactive, there a composers who rejected the past and composed based on the parameters set according to that belief, others created new styles but in the way that accepted and incorporated past achievements into modern work.. but as it is he's just making unproductive and tiresome waves in a teacup in my view.


----------



## classical yorkist

I'm currently on a real early 17th century Italian/Venetian kick. Lots of Monteverdi and especially Giovanni Gabriel who I find absolutely sensational! I would highly recommend the was two CDs from the excellent Chandos label.
https://www.chandos.net/products/catalogue/CHAN 0761#CD
https://www.chandos.net/products/catalogue/CHAN 0782#CD

I'm particulary enjoying those CDs that try and recreate an entire service or event.


----------



## Larkenfield

_Going Baroque..._

Dubravka Tomsic, one of my favorite "Scarlattiers"...
I used to put this exquisite jewel on replay for hours... 
Such beautiful harmonic logic and wealth of feeling...


----------



## Larkenfield

_Baroque but not broken..._

Lively performance by the noble Neville Marriner of Corelli's famous Concerto Grosso No. 2 - another composer with a beautiful sense of harmonic tension and release ("harmonic suspensions"), perfect structural balance, and cheer. Have always loved his graceful refinement and energy... He seems in tune with the invisible forces of the universe and every musical question has an answer... Nothing is left hanging in the air unresolved.


----------



## Larkenfield

_Beneficent and Baroque..._

The Gluck classic. Heavenly... Tender, delicate, and heavenly...


----------



## Ingélou

Larkenfield said:


> _Beneficent and Baroque..._
> 
> The Gluck classic. Heavenly... Tender, delicate, and heavenly...


I *love* Dance of the Blessed Spirits - but have always taken it as an example of the 'classical style'.
I see that Gluck was 'on the cusp'.
https://philharmonia.org/learn-and-listen/baroque-composers/christoph-willibald-gluck/
(Of course, what do labels and overlap matter. )


----------



## Ingélou

*Organ or Harpsichord? *

Continuing with my listening to *Pachelbel* as part of my Baroque Listening Project (see OP), I have been listening to two versions of his *Hexachordum Apollinis (1699)* from YouTube.

First on the *organ*, played (according to YT commentators) by John Butt:





This wowed me so much that I searched out the cd/ mp3 online and we're thinking of getting it, despite our downsizing project (connected with trying to move to York).

The melodies and variations seem relatively uncluttered and songlike. The varying tones of the organ are like somebody thinking or speaking.

Pachelbel, I think I love you.

Then, for form's sake, I decided to listen to a *harpsichord* version, performed by Huguette Gremy-Chauliac (harpsichord, built by W. Dowd): 





Oh dear - this is beautiful too - brittler, more crystalline. The organ touches me more deeply, but I marvel at the harpsichordist and each tucked string that serenades the universe.

I have a few more bits and pieces of Pachelbel's to round up (which I'll post about), and then on to Corelli, next up in the Wiki List of Baroque Composers (no. 21 out of 50).

Open to recommendations, anyone - though I'm sure that anything Corelli wrote will be wonderful.

This is fun!


----------



## Ingélou

We'll be going tomorrow night to hear Rachel Podger play, with Norwich Baroque, at Norwich Cathedral. We saw her last time she visited, three years ago, and she played a Bach solo from the pulpit, looking and sounding like an :angel:!

Anyway, I've just heard, via Norwich Baroque's email, that Rachel Podger has won the Artist of the Year Award from Gramophone UK.
https://www.gramophone.co.uk/awards/2018/artist-of-the-year
Well deserved, Rachel! :tiphat:


----------



## Mandryka

Ingélou said:


> *Organ or Harpsichord? *


Why not both at the same time?


----------



## premont

Ingélou said:


> *Organ or Harpsichord? *
> 
> Continuing with my listening to *Pachelbel* as part of my Baroque Listening Project (see OP), I have been listening to two versions of his *Hexachordum Apollinis (1699)* from YouTube.
> 
> First on the *organ*, played (according to YT commentators) by John Butt:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This wowed me so much that I searched out the cd/ mp3 online and we're thinking of getting it, despite our downsizing project (connected with trying to move to York).
> 
> The melodies and variations seem relatively uncluttered and songlike. The varying tones of the organ are like somebody thinking or speaking.
> 
> Pachelbel, I think I love you.
> 
> Then, for form's sake, I decided to listen to a *harpsichord* version, performed by Huguette Gremy-Chauliac (harpsichord, built by W. Dowd):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh dear - this is beautiful too - brittler, more crystalline. The organ touches me more deeply, but I marvel at the harpsichordist and each tucked string that serenades the universe.
> 
> I have a few more bits and pieces of Pachelbel's to round up (which I'll post about), and then on to Corelli, next up in the Wiki List of Baroque Composers (no. 21 out of 50).
> 
> Open to recommendations, anyone - though I'm sure that anything Corelli wrote will be wonderful.
> 
> This is fun!


Rübsam:

https://www.wolfgangrubsam.com/pachelbel


----------



## Ingélou

I decided to listen again to Lully's Te Deum on YouTube -






Le Concert Spirituel, Hervé Niquet

Isabelle Desrochers, dessus
Marie-Louise Duthoit, dessus
Hervé Lamy, taille
Dominique Favat, bas-dessus
Richard Durguay, haute-contre
Peter Harvey, basse-taille

[00:00] I. Symphonie
[06:42 II. Patrem immensae majestatis
[12:42] III. Tu ad dexteram Dei sedes
[17:08] IV. Salvum fac populum tuum
[21:41] V. Dignare, Domine
[27:09] VI. In Te, Domine, speravi

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As with all Lully's works, I find it full of a mixture of vital spirit and elegance - the French have a word for it, *élan*.
But in the case of his Te Deum, it's seething with *majestic élan*.


----------



## Mandryka

Ingélou said:


> *Organ or Harpsichord? *
> 
> Continuing with my listening to *Pachelbel* as part of my Baroque Listening Project (see OP), I have been listening to two versions of his *Hexachordum Apollinis (1699)* from YouTube.
> 
> First on the *organ*, played (according to YT commentators) by John Butt:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This wowed me so much that I searched out the cd/ mp3 online and we're thinking of getting it, despite our downsizing project (connected with trying to move to York).
> 
> The melodies and variations seem relatively uncluttered and songlike. The varying tones of the organ are like somebody thinking or speaking.
> 
> Pachelbel, I think I love you.
> 
> Then, for form's sake, I decided to listen to a *harpsichord* version, performed by Huguette Gremy-Chauliac (harpsichord, built by W. Dowd):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh dear - this is beautiful too - brittler, more crystalline. The organ touches me more deeply, but I marvel at the harpsichordist and each tucked string that serenades the universe.
> 
> I have a few more bits and pieces of Pachelbel's to round up (which I'll post about), and then on to Corelli, next up in the Wiki List of Baroque Composers (no. 21 out of 50).
> 
> Open to recommendations, anyone - though I'm sure that anything Corelli wrote will be wonderful.
> 
> This is fun!


If you like those Pachelbel variations you may well enjoy variation sets by Buxtehude and Pasquini.


----------



## Taggart

*Norwich Baroque with Rachel Podger 15 September 2018*

We saw Rachel Podger with Norwich Baroque in 2015 and were impressed by the performance. We were looking forward to this concert and were not disappointed. Rachel Podger has just been awarded Gramophone's Artist of the Year for 2018 and showed why she deserved that accolade.

The concert started with Norwich Baroque playing Handel's Concerto Grosso Op6 No. 7. This was a pleasant introduction. The piece covers a range from a complex chromatic slow movement to a rousing hornpipe.

Rachel Podger then joined them for Bach's Concerto in A major after BWV1055. Unlike Bach's other harpsichord concertos, BWV 1055 has no known precursors, either as an instrumental concerto or as a movement with obbligato organ in a cantata. It has generally been accepted that it is a reworking of a lost instrumental concerto, since Donald Francis Tovey first made the suggestion in 1935, when he proposed the oboe d'amore as the melody instrument. This was a delightful realisation for violin and Rachel Podger inspired Norwich Baroque to new heights.

The first half finished with Concerto No. 3 in F major, Op. 8, RV 293 by Vivaldi (_L'autunno_ (Autumn) from _Le quattro stagioni)_ (The Four Seasons)). This featured Matthew Wadsworth on Baroque Guitar and Kate Bennet-Wadsworth on cello to fine effect. The duelling between the cello and Rachel Podger was a delight to watch and to hear. She has an impish delight in the music and the cello and the whole orchestra responded to that.

The second half opened with Locatelli's Concerto Op.1 No. 3 played by Norwich Baroque. The work displays imaginative textures and offers the opportunity for exciting virtuosity which they displayed.

Next, Rachel Podger played (from the pulpit) some movements from Bach's second cello suite transposed from D minor to A minor. This was a delight from the sombre prelude through the stately allemande to the sarabande retracing the solemnity of the prelude and finishing with a driving 3/8 gigue. An excellent performance greeted with rapturous applause.

Norwich Baroque returned with Vivaldi's Concerto RV 156 in G minor. Because there is no solo line, this allowed them to show their strengths as they dealt with the the brilliant Allegros with the violins sometimes in unison sometimes in conflict but always with Vivaldi's characteristic rhythmic ingenuity, melodic invention and theatricality.

Rachel Podger joined them for the finale - Geminiani's Concerto Grosso in D minor, H.143 (_La Folia_) taken from _12 Concerti Grossi after Corelli's Violin Sonatas_ of 1729(?). This was a delightful piece with a strong role for the cello of Kate Bennet-Wadsworth and Matthew Wadsworth on theorbo. The Folia is a well known genre and this set of variations provided us with some delightfully sprinted playing from Ms Podger, some sections where the theme was taken up in parts and in canon and a delightful interplay between violin and cello. A rousing finish to a great evening.


----------



## Ingélou

This is a pale version of what we heard last night, in Norwich cathedral in the electric presence of Rachel Podger, but it is still good to share. This Folia has been arranged by many of the big name baroque composers - here, it's Geminiani. :angel:






~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

PS - This link says something more about the history of La Folia:
https://musictales.club/article/150-composers-contributed-la-folia-through-centuries


----------



## Jacck

Bartłomiej Pękiel (1633?-1670). MISSA a 14 (ex.) & MISSA CONCERTATA LA LOMBARDESCAThe Sixteen


----------



## Ingélou

I have completed my sampling of *Pachelbel* - he is a fine composer that I enjoyed listening to, though it was the well-known ones that really grab me, the Canon and the Hexachordum Apollinis.

In addition to those, I listened to the really lovely Ciacona in f-moll on YouTube - 





and to all the organ pieces lovingly assembled by Lukecash12 in the Pachelbel Composer Guestbook OP:
Pachelbel anyone?

Some of those YouTube videos are no longer on the page - nos. 2-10 - and no doubt more will disappear. 
The ones that really stood out for me were -

19 - Aria with variations Sebaldina

30 - Chaconne in d minor

and 33 - Toccata in G major.

I also liked the simplicity of 23 - Wo Gott der Herr nicht bei unshalt.

And for me that is the key to Pachelbel's appeal - there is something uncluttered (by baroque standards), melodic and serene about his best pieces, that certainly seem to speak to the Inner-gélou.

Cascades and ripples are his forte.

And now - on to *Corelli*. 
Well, in a bit. Fiddle practice first.


----------



## Jacck

Francesco Cavalli, "L'Amore Innamorato" - L'Arpeggiata


----------



## Ingélou

A chance discovery - serendipitously splendid. 

A. VIVALDI: «Filiae maestae Jerusalem» RV 638 [II.Sileant Zephyri], Ph.Jaroussky/Ensemble Artaserse






Although now that I look at it, I'm wondering if someone's posted this before - apologies if so! 
It ain't easy, being a codger.


----------



## Ingélou

*Corelli* - I'm pleased to find out that we have three cds of his music on our shelves, the violin sonatas and some of the concerti grossi, so I'll be able to listen at our leisure.

In the meantime - here's his version of the famous Folia, played by Jordi Savall and his merry band: 




I never tire of this tune, and I'm delighted with what Corelli has done with it. It is so inspiriting.

And here's another well-known piece, the Christmas Concerto, played by the Freiburger Barockorchester.




I love this - sprightly and wistful by turns, and always lovely.


----------



## Marinera

As a result of Corelli post today, I was inspired to listen to his Concerti Grossi. I have only one version of it with Amandine Beyer and Gli Incogniti. An outstanding album. 
The one I have is a part of a box set ,the original cover is this one









I think I would like to have the second version of Corelli's Concerti Grossi, as well. I have my eye on Modo Antiquo and Sardelli on Tactus (reissue). It is very colourful, and exuberant version of these concerti, considered a little idiosyncratic, but immensely enjoyable.


----------



## Mandryka

Leonhardt recorded a lot of Corelli, well a whole disc, and yet despised Handel, I tend to put both in the same basket, maybe I'm wrong.

The problem for me with Corelli is that it's all to lyrical and radiant and consonant, I get bored. It's like hollandaise sauce but someone's forgotten the lemon juice.


----------



## Ras

Marinera said:


> As a result of Corelli post today, I was inspired to listen to his Concerti Grossi. I have only one version of it with Amandine Beyer and Gli Incogniti. An outstanding album.
> The one I have is a part of a box set ,the original cover is this one
> 
> View attachment 108060
> 
> 
> I think I would like to have the second version of Corelli's Concerti Grossi, as well. I have my eye on Modo Antiquo and Sardelli on Tactus (reissue). It is very colourful, and exuberant version of these concerti, considered a little idiosyncratic, but immensely enjoyable.


Have you tried Trevor Pinnock?


----------



## Ingélou

Mandryka said:


> Leonhardt recorded a lot of Corelli, well a whole disc, and yet despised Handel, I tend to put both in the same basket, maybe I'm wrong.
> 
> The problem for me with Corelli is that it's all to lyrical and radiant and consonant, I get bored. It's like hollandaise sauce but someone's forgotten the lemon juice.


I know what you mean - when I was listening to (Manze's playing of) Corelli's violin sonatas the other night I thought they were sometimes a bit insipid for my taste.

But I wouldn't make the same criticism of Handel - he has much more edge and imagination - not forgetting lemon juice.
Definitely owns his own basket.


----------



## Mandryka

Ingélou said:


> But I wouldn't make the same criticism of Handel - he has much more edge and imagination - not forgetting lemon juice.
> Definitely owns his own basket.


I think that's very fair, not that I know the music of either composer very well.

If you're into concertos by the way, let me urge you to try my favourite of the baroque concerto writers, not Corelli nor Handel but Georg Muffat.


----------



## Ingélou

Mandryka said:


> I think that's very fair, not that I know the music of either composer very well.
> 
> If you're into concertos by the way, let me urge you to try my favourite of the baroque concerto writers, not Corelli nor Handel but Georg Muffat.


Thanks - I have listened to a bit of Muffat already as my fiddle teacher recommended him, but I will try some more. :tiphat:


----------



## Marinera

Ras said:


> Have you tried Trevor Pinnock?
> View attachment 108091


I listened some, but not fully. At the time when I wanted to get Corelli's concerti grossi I was looking for a specific sound where music instruments were more accented, the sound then is a bit more sinewy, textured. Pinnock's version, I like a lot, but it is different - the sound is smoother, I like the phrasing I find it very clear and everything comes very well together. I find the sound of Pinnock's version even easier on the ear, but I like the slight bite and astringency of Beyer's. Whenever possible 2 or 3 versions are always good idea to have - smooth, textured, and eccentric . For that reason I have the smooth sounding Locatelli's concerti grossi op 7 performed by Haenchen - at the time I gravitated towards smoother sound, but for the different approach and textured sound I find Ruhadze excellent, and also Il Giardinio Armonico did a very good version of no 6. il pianto d'Arianna.


----------



## Mandryka

Ingélou said:


> Thanks - I have listened to a bit of Muffat already as my fiddle teacher recommended him, but I will try some more. :tiphat:


If you play violin apparently Muffat's writings on bowing are really interesting, there's a violinist called Gunar Letzbor who has recorded Bach following the principles of Muffat and the result is extraordinary.


----------



## Ingélou

*Corelli* - the latest stop on my Wiki List listening project - 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Baroque_composers

I've been listening to Andrew Manze's two cds of Corelli's Violin Sonatas. We own the cds but here's a video of them on YouTube:





I enjoyed listening & I think that Corelli's melodies are fab - tender or sprightly, always shapely (if at times a bit predictable) and sometimes hauntingly beautiful.

However, at times I felt mildly bored, and I think that it's because Manze's playing* lacks pep. What makes me think that is because I knew some of the tunes/ themes intimately, from having played them or listened to others (including my fiddle teacher) play them on mp3s etc, and I felt that Manze's rendition was too slow and/or insipid.

* _Of course, Manze's way might be the authentic HIP way - who knows - and I love the way he performs other sonatas, for example Biber's Rosary Sonatas or sonatas by Rebel or Mozart. 
In general, I really rate Andrew Manze, and feel a bit mean for posting my honest opinion._


----------



## Blancrocher

Ingélou said:


> However, at times I felt mildly bored, and I think that it's because Manze's playing* lacks pep. What makes me think that is because I knew some of the tunes/ themes intimately, from having played them or listened to others (including my fiddle teacher) play them on mp3s etc, and I felt that Manze's rendition was too slow and/or insipid.
> 
> * _Of course, Manze's way might be the authentic HIP way - who knows - and I love the way he performs other sonatas, for example Biber's Rosary Sonatas or sonatas by Rebel or Mozart.
> In general, I really rate Andrew Manze, and feel a bit mean for posting my honest opinion._


I wonder what you would think of the Avison Ensemble. I used to have the Manze disks, but tossed them after hearing the other. It's really beautifully recorded. I can't wait till their Concerti Grossi arrive-I hope it will result in another replacement.


----------



## Dirge

François COUPERIN: _Leçons de ténèbres pour le Mercredy saint_ (1714)

Here's a bit of background on Leçons de ténèbres based on information taken from the Bible, liner notes, record reviews, Talk Classical posts, WikiLeaks, Wikipedia, something Shaq tweeted, and other such unimpeachable sources …

As tradition has it, the Book of Lamentations was written by the prophet Jeremiah, author of the Book of Jeremiah and an eyewitness to the siege, plunder, and destruction of Jerusalem and Solomon's Temple by the Babylonians circa 586 BC. The text is in the form of lament and expresses pain and sorrow over the loss of Jerusalem, but it also suggests that God allowed the events to take place as punishment for its people's continued and unrepentant idolatry, their turning away from the Lord. Jeremiah accepts this punishment as such, implores the people to turn back to the Lord, and hopes that God will one day deliver them from their chastisement.

The Christian Church has long used the siege, plunder, and destruction of Jerusalem as depicted by Jeremiah as an allegory for the passion and death of Jesus, and somewhere along the line the Church began incorporating texts/lessons from the Lamentations into the Matins (the pre-dawn services) for Maundy Thursday, Good Friday, and Holy Saturday-three lessons per service. Each service is illuminated by fifteen candles set in a large triangular candelabrum placed in front of the altar-one candle each for the twelve Apostles and the three Marys at the tomb of Christ-and each service revolves around its three lessons (in a total of fourteen verses) from the Lamentations of Jeremiah, with emphasis on "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, return to the Lord your God," which appears at the end of each lesson. As each service proceeds, a candle is extinguished as each of the fourteen verses is chanted, and the church grows darker and darker with every verse … until only one candle remains lit, the one at the apex of the candelabrum. This candle, now representing the body of Christ, is removed from the candelabrum and placed out of sight behind the altar to simulate the death of Christ. After a dramatic pause in the ensuing darkness, the candle is pulled out from behind the altar and placed front and center to simulate the Resurrection. The crowd goes wild, with much stomping and shouting and general celebrating. Things wind down, a final prayer is offered, and everyone files out and returns to their wretched mediæval lives.

Because these services were given in growing darkness, they came to be know as Tenebrae ("Darkness") services. The texts/lessons were originally read or chanted but were eventually set polyphonically (beginning in the 15th Century) and then in various other manners, with and without instrumental accompaniment (beginning in the 17th Century). For whatever reasons, French composers of the Baroque took a special interest in setting these lessons to music, and this music eventually occupied a tiny little French genre in and of itself: Leçons de ténèbres ("Lessons of Darkness").

By the time of Louis XIV, Tenebrae services were no longer held during the inconvenient wee hours of the morning but during the much more civilized hours of the evening prior: so, for example, the service for Maundy Thursday was held on Ash Wednesday. Hence, Couperin's offering "pour le Mercredy saint" ("for Ash Wednesday") uses the texts intended for Maundy Thursday. Somewhere along the line, composers began writing the vocal parts for moonlighting singers from the opera, which was closed during Holy Week, and Tenebrae services became so popular in parts of France that the Church started charging admission.

Couperin is thought to have completed settings for Good Friday and Holy Saturday, but if that's so, they've been lost. His surviving setting calls for two voices and basso continuo (usually organ and bass viol or viola da gamba, but performers often add or substitute harpsichord, theorbo, and/or lute). The two voice parts were conceived for sopranos, but Couperin had no qualms with transposing them for other voices. He sets the first and second lessons for solo voice and continuo, the third for two voices and continuo-the third lesson is one of the more beguiling vocal settings of the Baroque. Most modern-day performances use two sopranos or a soprano and a mezzo-soprano, but countertenors are heard quite frequently in these hypercorrect/hyperHIP days of ours. The vocal parts are notable for their melismatic charms and challenges on the one hand (each verse begins with an extended melismatic episode on the Hebrew letter that introduces it) and for their recitative-like storytelling challenges on the other, requiring a certain agile grace for the former and a certain rhetorical eloquence for the latter.

* * *

Comprising 40-some minutes of mildly varied, mildly contrasted, mildly dynamic, and mildly dramatic music, the work is difficult to pull off, requiring unflagging focus & concentration to sustain the music and great interpretive/expressive savvy and efficiency to maintain the listener's interest without stepping beyond the music's bounds. If that weren't enough, the listener must also like the singers (always a sticking point with vocal music, it seems). I've yet to find my dream recording, as none that I've heard are as grimly intense and plaintively intoned and just plain lamentable as I would have them, but I tend to gravitate toward one of the following depending on my mood/blood alcohol content/level of sin:

:: Sluis**, Laurens* (mezzo), Monteilhet, Muller, Boulay [Erato '88] ~ _not to be confused with Boulay's 1954 recording of the work, also on Erato_
:: Daneman*, Petibon**, Christie/Les Arts Florissants [Erato '96]
:: Piau*, Gens**, Rousset/Les Talen Lyriques [Decca '97]
_*first lesson soloist, **second lesson soloist_

Boulay provides a thoughtful middle-of-the-road (in the best sense) account that's well-rounded and easy to like for its warm and inviting atmosphere and its disarmingly sincere and unaffected manner. Christie and Rousset provide relatively cool and refined alternatives, with variously purer, brighter voices and more discreet continuo support-Christie opts for harpsichord rather than the much more usual organ, which gives his contribution a correspondingly lighter, airier, more harpsichordy feel. Rousset's approach is the most earnest and formal/churchy of the three, Christie's the most insinuated and sensuous, and Boulay's the most warmhearted and natural.

My main reservation about the Christie account is the rather sweet phrasing that his singers employ-it's slightly cloying to my ears and slowly wears on me. Rousset's singers have no such sweetness problem, but they're not ideally matched/complementary and don't quite magically coalesce in the third lesson. If I have a problem with Boulay et al, it's that they're too comfortable and at ease, with tension being lower than I'd have it; this won't be a problem for many listeners, and it will be a plus for some, but I like my tension. Even so, the sheer naturalness of the performance makes it hard to resist, and I find myself favoring it by a fair margin over Christie and Rousset.

Intrepid listeners looking for something more daring/unconventional (and more controversial and contentious) might want to explore the following:

:: Grimm*, Zomer**, Fentross/La Sfera Armoniosa [Channel '03]

Fentross adopts a conspicuously slow pace and allows much formal and dramatic/expressive freedom, insidiously and not so insidiously stretching the music to its mild limits. Much as I admire the focus and concentration of the performance, Fentross takes things too slowly and too freely for my taste … but his singers sing so well and with such lovely tone that I listen to the recording anyhow.

For something truly lamentable, I very occasionally listen to the old Alfred Deller recording:

:: Deller* ** (counter-tenor), Brown (tenor), Dupré, Gabb [Vanguard '60]

Whatever one may think of Deller's "distinctive" counter-tenoring-I happen to have a perverse liking for it myself-he gives a wonderfully somber/distressed/plaintive-toned rendering of the text that is far removed from the faintly operatic norm. For variety's sake, I wish that he had given one of the solo lessons to his trusty tenor sidekick instead of taking both for himself, but it's understandable given Deller's novelty/star appeal at the time of the recording.


----------



## Larkenfield

_Beneficent and Baroque ..._ Up with Graupner! Reminds me of a light and tasty souffle ... Beautiful unforced performance ... Delightful.


----------



## Ingélou

Dirge said:


> François COUPERIN: _Leçons de ténèbres pour le Mercredy saint_ (1714)
> 
> Here's a bit of background on Leçons de ténèbres based on information taken from the Bible, liner notes, record reviews, Talk Classical posts, WikiLeaks, Wikipedia, something Shaq tweeted, and other such unimpeachable sources …
> 
> As tradition has it, the Book of Lamentations was written by the prophet Jeremiah, author of the Book of Jeremiah and an eyewitness to the siege, plunder, and destruction of Jerusalem and Solomon's Temple by the Babylonians circa 586 BC. The text is in the form of lament and expresses pain and sorrow over the loss of Jerusalem, but it also suggests that God allowed the events to take place as punishment for its people's continued and unrepentant idolatry, their turning away from the Lord. Jeremiah accepts this punishment as such, implores the people to turn back to the Lord, and hopes that God will one day deliver them from their chastisement.
> 
> The Christian Church has long used the siege, plunder, and destruction of Jerusalem as depicted by Jeremiah as an allegory for the passion and death of Jesus, and somewhere along the line the Church began incorporating texts/lessons from the Lamentations into the Matins (the pre-dawn services) for Maundy Thursday, Good Friday, and Holy Saturday-three lessons per service. Each service is illuminated by fifteen candles set in a large triangular candelabrum placed in front of the altar-one candle each for the twelve Apostles and the three Marys at the tomb of Christ-and each service revolves around its three lessons (in a total of fourteen verses) from the Lamentations of Jeremiah, with emphasis on "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, return to the Lord your God," which appears at the end of each lesson. As each service proceeds, a candle is extinguished as each of the fourteen verses is chanted, and the church grows darker and darker with every verse … until only one candle remains lit, the one at the apex of the candelabrum. This candle, now representing the body of Christ, is removed from the candelabrum and placed out of sight behind the altar to simulate the death of Christ. After a dramatic pause in the ensuing darkness, the candle is pulled out from behind the altar and placed front and center to simulate the Resurrection. The crowd goes wild, with much stomping and shouting and general celebrating. Things wind down, a final prayer is offered, and everyone files out and returns to their wretched mediæval lives.
> 
> Because these services were given in growing darkness, they came to be know as Tenebrae ("Darkness") services. The texts/lessons were originally read or chanted but were eventually set polyphonically (beginning in the 15th Century) and then in various other manners, with and without instrumental accompaniment (beginning in the 17th Century). For whatever reasons, French composers of the Baroque took a special interest in setting these lessons to music, and this music eventually occupied a tiny little French genre in and of itself: Leçons de ténèbres ("Lessons of Darkness").
> 
> By the time of Louis XIV, Tenebrae services were no longer held during the inconvenient wee hours of the morning but during the much more civilized hours of the evening prior: so, for example, the service for Maundy Thursday was held on Ash Wednesday. Hence, Couperin's offering "pour le Mercredy saint" ("for Ash Wednesday") uses the texts intended for Maundy Thursday. Somewhere along the line, composers began writing the vocal parts for moonlighting singers from the opera, which was closed during Holy Week, and Tenebrae services became so popular in parts of France that the Church started charging admission.
> 
> Couperin is thought to have completed settings for Good Friday and Holy Saturday, but if that's so, they've been lost. His surviving setting calls for two voices and basso continuo (usually organ and bass viol or viola da gamba, but performers often add or substitute harpsichord, theorbo, and/or lute). The two voice parts were conceived for sopranos, but Couperin had no qualms with transposing them for other voices. He sets the first and second lessons for solo voice and continuo, the third for two voices and continuo-the third lesson is one of the more beguiling vocal settings of the Baroque. Most modern-day performances use two sopranos or a soprano and a mezzo-soprano, but countertenors are heard quite frequently in these hypercorrect/hyperHIP days of ours. The vocal parts are notable for their melismatic charms and challenges on the one hand (each verse begins with an extended melismatic episode on the Hebrew letter that introduces it) and for their recitative-like storytelling challenges on the other, requiring a certain agile grace for the former and a certain rhetorical eloquence for the latter.
> 
> * * *
> 
> Comprising 40-some minutes of mildly varied, mildly contrasted, mildly dynamic, and mildly dramatic music, the work is difficult to pull off, requiring unflagging focus & concentration to sustain the music and great interpretive/expressive savvy and efficiency to maintain the listener's interest without stepping beyond the music's bounds. If that weren't enough, the listener must also like the singers (always a sticking point with vocal music, it seems). I've yet to find my dream recording, as none that I've heard are as grimly intense and plaintively intoned and just plain lamentable as I would have them, but I tend to gravitate toward one of the following depending on my mood/blood alcohol content/level of sin:
> 
> :: Sluis**, Laurens* (mezzo), Monteilhet, Muller, Boulay [Erato '88] ~ _not to be confused with Boulay's 1954 recording of the work, also on Erato_
> :: Daneman*, Petibon**, Christie/Les Arts Florissants [Erato '96]
> :: Piau*, Gens**, Rousset/Les Talen Lyriques [Decca '97]
> _*first lesson soloist, **second lesson soloist_
> 
> Boulay provides a thoughtful middle-of-the-road (in the best sense) account that's well-rounded and easy to like for its warm and inviting atmosphere and its disarmingly sincere and unaffected manner. Christie and Rousset provide relatively cool and refined alternatives, with variously purer, brighter voices and more discreet continuo support-Christie opts for harpsichord rather than the much more usual organ, which gives his contribution a correspondingly lighter, airier, more harpsichordy feel. Rousset's approach is the most earnest and formal/churchy of the three, Christie's the most insinuated and sensuous, and Boulay's the most warmhearted and natural.
> 
> My main reservation about the Christie account is the rather sweet phrasing that his singers employ-it's slightly cloying to my ears and slowly wears on me. Rousset's singers have no such sweetness problem, but they're not ideally matched/complementary and don't quite magically coalesce in the third lesson. If I have a problem with Boulay et al, it's that they're too comfortable and at ease, with tension being lower than I'd have it; this won't be a problem for many listeners, and it will be a plus for some, but I like my tension. Even so, the sheer naturalness of the performance makes it hard to resist, and I find myself favoring it by a fair margin over Christie and Rousset.
> 
> Intrepid listeners looking for something more daring/unconventional (and more controversial and contentious) might want to explore the following:
> 
> :: Grimm*, Zomer**, Fentross/La Sfera Armoniosa [Channel '03]
> 
> Fentross adopts a conspicuously slow pace and allows much formal and dramatic/expressive freedom, insidiously and not so insidiously stretching the music to its mild limits. Much as I admire the focus and concentration of the performance, Fentross takes things too slowly and too freely for my taste … but his singers sing so well and with such lovely tone that I listen to the recording anyhow.
> 
> For something truly lamentable, I very occasionally listen to the old Alfred Deller recording:
> 
> :: Deller* ** (counter-tenor), Brown (tenor), Dupré, Gabb [Vanguard '60]
> 
> Whatever one may think of Deller's "distinctive" counter-tenoring-I happen to have a perverse liking for it myself-he gives a wonderfully somber/distressed/plaintive-toned rendering of the text that is far removed from the faintly operatic norm. For variety's sake, I wish that he had given one of the solo lessons to his trusty tenor sidekick instead of taking both for himself, but it's understandable given Deller's novelty/star appeal at the time of the recording.


Thanks for your interesting post. :tiphat:

I hope to listen to this music in due course, and will reread your reviews before sampling - no, maybe afterwards to compare my own response. 

Just to clarify though - Ash Wednesday isn't the day before Maundy Thursday as it occurs at the start of Lent, not during Holy Week. The day before Maundy or Holy Thursday in Holy Week is traditionally called Spy Wednesday, as it is the day on which Judas sold Jesus to the High Priests.

I'll admit, as a Catholic convert, I thought *Spy Wednesday* sounded a bit scary when I first heard it!


----------



## Guest

This is my favourite recording of Geminiani's La Follia -

View attachment 108277







And my personal recommendation for a rather idiosyncratic but wildly exciting interpretation of Corelli's Concerto Grosso Op. 6 -

View attachment 108278







Other recordings of Corelli's Violin Sonatas Op. 5 -

Accademia Bizantina with Ottavio Dantone -






Trio Sonnerie with Monica Huggett - (starting at the 11:03 mark after "Follia")






Selected quotes from the classical-music.com review of The Avison Ensemble with Pavel Beznosiuk recording of Corelli's Violin Sonatas -

"One of the most immediate differences is their approach to the continuo, the Avison Ensemble favouring the varied timbres and textures of an ensemble (variously harpsichord or organ, archlute, Baroque guitar, and cello) rather than solo harpsichord."

"Violinist Pavel Beznosiuk offers lyrical, intuitively musical performances performances, imbued with a placid, unpretentious grace, while his spontaneous ornamentation adds a dash of Baroque bravura."

I would have personally substituted the word "languorous" in place of "placid"...


----------



## Jacck

Dirge said:


> François COUPERIN: _Leçons de ténèbres pour le Mercredy saint_ (1714)
> 
> Here's a bit of background on Leçons de ténèbres based on information taken from the Bible, liner notes, record reviews, Talk Classical posts, WikiLeaks, Wikipedia, something Shaq tweeted, and other such unimpeachable sources …
> 
> As tradition has it, the Book of Lamentations was written by the prophet Jeremiah, author of the Book of Jeremiah and an eyewitness to the siege, plunder, and destruction of Jerusalem and Solomon's Temple by the Babylonians circa 586 BC. The text is in the form of lament and expresses pain and sorrow over the loss of Jerusalem, but it also suggests that God allowed the events to take place as punishment for its people's continued and unrepentant idolatry, their turning away from the Lord. Jeremiah accepts this punishment as such, implores the people to turn back to the Lord, and hopes that God will one day deliver them from their chastisement.


incidentally, I studied this a couple of days ago because of Zelenka and his Responsoria pro hebdomada sancta. It is exactly the same as Couperin, ie music for the 3 days of the Holy week (responsoriia, matins etc). You can read about it here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsories_for_Holy_Week
I even followed the Latin text in Zelenka's Responsoria. (I studied some basic Latin at school, so I can understand it a little)

and I also tried to read the Book of Lamentations by the Prophet Jeremiah. Man, these ancient Jews were primitive savages and their Jehova a petty minded cruel and jalous God. The whole Old Testament is full of wars, murder, torture, eyes gouging, thumb cutting, female and male circumcision. A fascinating historic reading.


----------



## Guest

I cannot begin to tell you how bitterly I regret not having named my thread "Atonal, dodecaphonic, serial, *and Renaissance* compositions - One Tune A Day" so that I would have had a more appropriate home for this post rather than having to crash Ingélou's Baroque thread... but I didn't and so I can't and thus here I am...

Renaissance... Baroque... Like there's a difference, eh? - :lol:

I'm looking forward to the release of this set -

View attachment 108280


"Blue Heron releases a 5-CD boxed set of world premiere recordings of pre-Reformation English polyphony, from the largest extant source of such music, the Peterhouse Partbooks, which were copied in Oxford for Canterbury Cathedral in 1540 and now reside at Peterhouse, Cambridge.

The source had been badly neglected for centuries because of the loss of the tenor partbook, as well as a number of pages from the treble book, sometime in the 17th century. Nick Sandon, who has dedicated much of his professional life to the Peterhouse partbooks, has restored the missing parts.

This set, containing nearly five and a half hours of previously 'lost' music, is a must-have for any serious collector of early choral recordings. It includes all the music from the five Peterhouse CDs Blue Heron released between 2010 and 2017, together with a substantial unified booklet containing new and updated notes on the music by Nick Sandon and Scott Metcalfe.

Writing in Gramophone, Fabrice Fitch called the fifth CD 'one of the discoveries of the year'; it was selected both as an Editor's Choice and a Gramophone Critic's Choice for 2017."

Two samples -

*Ave Maria dive matris Anne by Hugh Aston (c.1485-c.1558) -
*





*Magnificat by Robert Jones (fl. 1520-35) - *


----------



## Mandryka

Sydney Nova Scotia said:


> I cannot begin to tell you how bitterly I regret not having named my thread "Atonal, dodecaphonic, serial, *and Renaissance* compositions - One Tune A Day" so that I would have had a more appropriate home for this post rather than having to crash Ingélou's Baroque thread... but I didn't and so I can't and thus here I am...
> 
> Renaissance... Baroque... Like there's a difference, eh? - :lol:
> 
> I'm looking forward to the release of this set -
> 
> View attachment 108280
> 
> 
> "Blue Heron releases a 5-CD boxed set of world premiere recordings of pre-Reformation English polyphony, from the largest extant source of such music, the Peterhouse Partbooks, which were copied in Oxford for Canterbury Cathedral in 1540 and now reside at Peterhouse, Cambridge.
> 
> The source had been badly neglected for centuries because of the loss of the tenor partbook, as well as a number of pages from the treble book, sometime in the 17th century. Nick Sandon, who has dedicated much of his professional life to the Peterhouse partbooks, has restored the missing parts.
> 
> This set, containing nearly five and a half hours of previously 'lost' music, is a must-have for any serious collector of early choral recordings. It includes all the music from the five Peterhouse CDs Blue Heron released between 2010 and 2017, together with a substantial unified booklet containing new and updated notes on the music by Nick Sandon and Scott Metcalfe.
> 
> Writing in Gramophone, Fabrice Fitch called the fifth CD 'one of the discoveries of the year'; it was selected both as an Editor's Choice and a Gramophone Critic's Choice for 2017."
> 
> Two samples -
> 
> *Ave Maria dive matris Anne by Hugh Aston (c.1485-c.1558) -
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Magnificat by Robert Jones (fl. 1520-35) - *


I enjoyed the first CD but the other four have not yet caught my imagination. I mention this not necessarily as a reflection on the music or the performances, it's just a brute fact. If you find anything really exciting in there -- by Ludford or anyone else -- please say and I'll be very glad to relisten.

I think, but I haven't checked so I could be wrong, that the two clips from youtube you found are from the first CD, the one I enjoyed.


----------



## Guest

Mandryka said:


> I enjoyed the first CD but the other four have not yet caught my imagination. I mention this not necessarily as a reflection on the music or the performances, it's just a brute fact. If you find anything really exciting in there -- by Ludford or anyone else -- please say and I'll be very glad to relisten.
> 
> I think, but I haven't checked so I could be wrong, that the two clips from youtube you found are from the first CD, the one I enjoyed.


You're right - they are tracks one and two of the first cd.

I can't comment on anything other than the first two discs which I quite enjoyed but my sentiments may or may not echo yours after listening to discs three through five - we'll have to wait and see.

I'll post a follow-up provided Ingélou allows me back onto the thread after having crashed it which could have been avoided if she had had the foresight to name the thread "For love of the Renaissance... and Baroque"... Like there's a difference, eh?


----------



## Ingélou

Sydney Nova Scotia said:


> ...
> 
> I'll post a follow-up provided Ingélou allows me back onto the thread after having crashed it which could have been avoided if she had had the foresight to name the thread "For love of the Renaissance... and Baroque"... *Like there's a difference, eh*?


I think it's generally accepted that there *is* a difference - that 'Renaissance' and 'Baroque' are convenient labels that do denote identifiably different styles of music, though obviously there is an overlap.

The dates of 'Baroque music' are usually set between 1600 and 1760, and that's the basis on which I started the thread - calling it 'For love of the baroque' because that's my motive in undertaking a project of listening to all the composers on the Wiki list. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Baroque_composers

I am happy for you to post the *occasional* renaissance piece on here if you like, but I really wouldn't want you to change the nature of the thread.

So you may find it more convenient to start your own thread* - to which I'd happily contribute - or else you could post on one of the other TC threads devoted to the earlier music - this one, for example. 
Medieval and Renaissance Music

*(There is a separate list for *renaissance composers* on Wikipedia, if it's any help.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Renaissance_composers) 
:tiphat:


----------



## Dirge

Ingélou said:


> Thanks for your interesting post. :tiphat:
> 
> I hope to listen to this music in due course, and will reread your reviews before sampling - no, maybe afterwards to compare my own response.
> 
> Just to clarify though - Ash Wednesday isn't the day before Maundy Thursday as it occurs at the start of Lent, not during Holy Week. The day before Maundy or Holy Thursday in Holy Week is traditionally called Spy Wednesday, as it is the day on which Judas sold Jesus to the High Priests.
> 
> I'll admit, as a Catholic convert, I thought *Spy Wednesday* sounded a bit scary when I first heard it!


Good catch/correction. I should have heeded Shaq's tweet.

Unfortunately, it's too late for me to edit my post and add a correction, so should there be a lot of Baroque music-loving Catholics with black splotches on their foreheads come next Spy Wednesday, you'll know whom to blame.


----------



## Ingélou

Dirge said:


> Good catch/correction. I should have heeded Shaq's tweet.
> 
> Unfortunately, it's too late for me to edit my post and add a correction, so should there be a lot of Baroque music-loving Catholics with black splotches on their foreheads come next Spy Wednesday, you'll know whom to blame.


It could look rather sinister - the 'black spot' preparing them for spy action!


----------



## Dirge

Jacck said:


> incidentally, I studied this a couple of days ago because of Zelenka and his Responsoria pro hebdomada sancta. It is exactly the same as Couperin, ie music for the 3 days of the Holy week (responsoriia, matins etc). You can read about it here
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsories_for_Holy_Week
> I even followed the Latin text in Zelenka's Responsoria. (I studied some basic Latin at school, so I can understand it a little)
> 
> and I also tried to read the Book of Lamentations by the Prophet Jeremiah. Man, these ancient Jews were primitive savages and their Jehova a petty minded cruel and jalous God. The whole Old Testament is full of wars, murder, torture, eyes gouging, thumb cutting, female and male circumcision. A fascinating historic reading.


If you want to hear Lamentation settings with more of a primitive bent/Old Testament flavor, try Ginastera's _Jeremiæ Prophetæ Lamentationes_ (1946):


----------



## Ingélou

*OP Project - Progress.*

Just for my own convenience, here's my list of the baroque composers I've listened to so far from the Wiki list, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Baroque_composers, with the 'extras', the non-list composers, marked in red.

*1. Jacopo Peri
2. Giulio Cacchini
3. Francesca Cacchini
4. Sweelinck
5. Monteverdi
6. Allegri
7. Frescobaldi
8. Schutz
9. Scheidt
10. Cavalli
11. William Lawes
12. Henry Lawes
13. John Jenkins
14. John Ward
15. Bertali
16. Carissimi
17. Froberger
18. Barbara Strozzi
19.Schmelzer
20. D'Anglebert
21. Lully
22. Uccellini
23. Charpentier
24. Elisabeth Jacquet de la Guerre
25. Buxtehude
26. Biber
27. Pachelbel
28. Corelli - in progress
*
and before I go on to the next one on the Wiki list, *Marin Marais*, I intend to listen to *Muffat* and then *Jean-Fery Rebel*.


----------



## Ingélou

Ingélou said:


> For love of the Baroque, I vow to undertake a delightful project...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you love Baroque music - you will know about that sense of connection with all the beauty in the Universe when you listen to it.
> 
> I was idly looking at the Wiki list of baroque composers:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Baroque_composers
> 
> I had never heard of the first on the list - Jacopo Peri ((1561-1633) - and at first could find no examples of his work on YouTube. Then I looked up his Wiki biography and located this link for his opera Euridice:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I started to listen - and a wonderful voice spoke to me out of the past, saying 'I was once alive, like you, and now I reach out to you from Eternity, your destination too...'
> 
> Then I thought that I haven't seen much on TC lately about the Beauties of the Baroque.
> 
> I am going to try and listen to items from the Wiki list in chronological order and write about my experiences, and I would love it if you, dear reader & Baroque-Lover, could post *your* listening experiences using composers from the list, though not necessarily in order - unless you want to.
> 
> You might also like to highlight baroque composers who have somehow not appeared on the list, if any there be.
> 
> I invite you also - or as an alternative - to post on this thread any new discoveries you have made, and/or any observations on baroque music that occur to you.
> 
> Just wondering now whether to change the thread title to Baroque Epiphanies -
> but no, *Amor Vincit Omnia*!


And just to reflect on my OP - there are comparatively few TC members who've posted on this thread, but *the quality is high*. 

There have been many interesting observations on the list-composers, many posts which share 'incidental' listenings to baroque music, and many posts discussing issues relevant to baroque music.

Thank you for all these Epiphanies, made 'for love of the baroque'. :tiphat:

Incredibly, it isn't yet a year since I started this thread.

It feels much longer, because in December last year, I lost my beautiful and loving mother - she was 97. Here's a photo from my childhood - Mum with my little bro at her favourite place, the North York Moors.









I think it will be a very long time before I come to terms with my loss.
But in the meantime, there is music...


----------



## Guest

Sydney Nova Scotia said:


> ... Renaissance... and Baroque"... Like there's a difference, eh?





Sydney Nova Scotia said:


> Renaissance... Baroque... Like there's a difference, eh? - :lol:





Ingélou said:


> I think it's generally accepted that there *is* a difference - that 'Renaissance' and 'Baroque' are convenient labels that do denote identifiably different styles of music, though obviously there is an overlap.


I reckon that jocularity apparently doesn't translate well from Canadian to English even though it is my understanding that we both speak the same language. It's odd but I was under the impression that the "two nations divided by a common language" was the UK and the US not the UK and Canada... 

Onward... Those who were intrigued by Corelli may find this title to be of interest -

View attachment 108303


released by Collegium Musicum 90 and which features compositions written by three of Corelli's pupils - Antonio Montanari, Giovanni Mossi, and Giuseppe Valentini.

"The album reveals Corelli's influence, from a style of execution that was of vital importance to the development of violin playing to a compositional manner that, in establishing the pre-eminence of the violin, proved central to the development of the modern genres of sonata and concerto."

You can listen to each of the album's 25 tracks here -






which leads you to - Valentini's Concerto grosso in A Minor, Op. 7 No. 11 (Ed. R. Maunder) : I. Largo · Simon Standage

at the top right of the page are links which lead to the other 24 tracks.

My personal favourite is Montanari's Violin Concerto in D Minor, Op. 1 No. 2 -

I. Presto - 




II. Allegro - 




III. Adagio - 




IV. Allegro -


----------



## classical yorkist

Ingélou said:


> *OP Project - Progress.*
> 
> Just for my own convenience, here's my list of the baroque composers I've listened to so far from the Wiki list, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Baroque_composers, with the 'extras', the non-list composers, marked in red.
> 
> *1. Jacopo Peri
> 2. Giulio Cacchini
> 3. Francesca Cacchini
> 4. Sweelinck
> 5. Monteverdi
> 6. Allegri
> 7. Frescobaldi
> 8. Schutz
> 9. Scheidt
> 10. Cavalli
> 11. William Lawes
> 12. Henry Lawes
> 13. John Jenkins
> 14. John Ward
> 15. Bertali
> 16. Carissimi
> 17. Froberger
> 18. Barbara Strozzi
> 19.Schmelzer
> 20. D'Anglebert
> 21. Lully
> 22. Uccellini
> 23. Charpentier
> 24. Elisabeth Jacquet de la Guerre
> 25. Buxtehude
> 26. Biber
> 27. Pachelbel
> 28. Corelli - in progress
> *
> and before I go on to the next one on the Wiki list, *Marin Marais*, I intend to listen to *Muffat* and then *Jean-Fery Rebel*.


It's nice to see a list. I felt certain hat you'd spent some time listening to Giovanni Gabriel but it appears not. Please do listen to him, I think he's absolutely a genius and a real lynchpin around which the Renaissance/baroque turns. He is the absolute master of the Venetian polychoral tradition and despite his fairly short life, 1553?-1612, he was incredibly active and important in developing the future (Schutz was a pupil of his). His choral and organ works are simply breathtaking.


----------



## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> It's nice to see a list. I felt certain hat you'd spent some time listening to Giovanni Gabriel but it appears not. Please do listen to him, I think he's absolutely a genius and a real lynchpin around which the Renaissance/baroque turns. He is the absolute master of the Venetian polychoral tradition and despite his fairly short life, 1553?-1612, he was incredibly active and important in developing the future (Schutz was a pupil of his). His choral and organ works are simply breathtaking.


Thank you - I'll definitely take time to listen! :tiphat:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

(I had to make up the list by scrolling through the thread, which is a bit chancy, so I may have listened to a piece by Giovanni Gabriel at some point - the trouble is, the composers are all fab when I listen to them, but then my codgerette memory merges them all into each other. Hence the usefulness of posting, and I think now that I'd better start a notebook list too.
But apart from the hours of wonderful music and great enjoyment, I think my brain is beginning to get more idea about musical development, so it's all worth while.  )

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I was just posting that it was really Giovanni Gabriel*i*, as you point out below, Ras, when suddenly TC went down the swanee again. 
Thanks :tiphat: - and I'd better get this posted now before....


----------



## Ras

Ingélou said:


> Thank you - I'll definitely take time to listen! :tiphat:
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> (I had to make up the list by scrolling through the thread, which is a bit chancy, so I may have listened to a piece by Giovanni Gabriel at some point - the trouble is, the composers are all fab when I listen to them, but then my codgerette memory merges them all into each other. Hence the usefulness of posting, and I think now that I'd better start a notebook list too.
> But apart from the hours of wonderful music and great enjoyment, I think my brain is beginning to get more idea about musical development, so it's all worth while.  )


I think the composer classical yorkist is thinking about is GIOVANNI GABRIELI the nephew of Andrea Garbrieli.


----------



## Ras

*This is my favorite G. Gabrieli album:*









Now, I will try not to say more about Renaissance music on your Baroque thread.

BTW : I thought I was serious about Baroque - Until I saw this thread - You guys are real first class Baroque afacinados!!!

Sorry, I made two posts - I hit the post button by accident.


----------



## classical yorkist

Ras said:


> I think the composer classical yorkist is thinking about is GIOVANNI GABRIELI the nephew of Andrea Garbrieli.


Yeah my fat fingers mis-typed. Giovanni Gabrieli. He worked in Munich with Lassus, was organist and maestro di capella at St Marks in Venice and also served at San Rocco. He was succeeded at St Marks by Monteverdi. I like his Uncle but the nephew is the master.


----------



## Ras

classical yorkist said:


> Yeah my fat fingers mis-typed. Giovanni Gabrieli. He worked in Munich with Lassus, was organist and maestro di capella at St Marks in Venice and also served at San Rocco. He was succeeded at St Marks by Monteverdi. I like his Uncle but the nephew is the master.


I don't think I have even heard any music written by the uncle Andrea Gabrieli.

I think the only family connection there is in music where you can say that the current rating is equal between the two composers are the father and son: Allesdro Scarlatti and Dominico Scarlatti. ---- But then there is the rest of the family - see this list from Wikipedia:
Alessandro Scarlatti (1660-1725), Baroque composer known for operas and chamber cantatas
Francesco Scarlatti (1666-1741), Baroque composer and musician, brother of Alessandro Scarlatti
Domenico Scarlatti (1685-1757), Baroque composer, influential in the development of keyboard music, son of Alessandro Scarlatti
Giuseppe Scarlatti (1718/1723-1777), Baroque composer, nephew of Alessandro or Domenico
Pietro Filippo Scarlatti (1679-1750), Baroque composer, organist and choirmaster, son of Alessandro Scarlatti


----------



## Ingélou

Ras said:


> I don't think I have even heard any music written by the uncle Andrea Gabrieli.
> 
> I think the only family connection there is in music where you can say that the current rating is equal between the two composers are the father and son: Allesdro Scarlatti and Dominico Scarlatti. ---- But then there is the rest of the family - see this list from Wikipedia:
> Alessandro Scarlatti (1660-1725), Baroque composer known for operas and chamber cantatas
> Francesco Scarlatti (1666-1741), Baroque composer and musician, brother of Alessandro Scarlatti
> Domenico Scarlatti (1685-1757), Baroque composer, influential in the development of keyboard music, son of Alessandro Scarlatti
> Giuseppe Scarlatti (1718/1723-1777), Baroque composer, nephew of Alessandro or Domenico
> Pietro Filippo Scarlatti (1679-1750), Baroque composer, organist and choirmaster, son of Alessandro Scarlatti


Goodness - someone should write a soap opera for them. 
Of the two most famous Scarlattis, I like Alessandro best.


----------



## Dirge

François COUPERIN: _Quatre versets d'un motet composé de l'ordre du Roy_ (1703)
:: Piau, Pelon, Rousset/Les Talens Lyriques [Virgin '93] ~ about 9 minutes all told

These light & airy little verset settings for two sopranos, two flutes, violin & continuo are remarkable for their rarefied intricacy and somber-tinged charm, and the voices seem to float in the ether at times. The unaccompanied opening verset emerges from nothingness and is in full bloom before you know it, so you'll want to be focused and ready to go in a quiet environment when you hit the "Play" button.





 (the first video contains the first _and_ second versets, the second beginning at about the 1'21" mark)


----------



## Dorsetmike

Just joined, have not yet had time to go through every page of this thread, (past my bed time!) Thought the following site must be of interest, about 130 CDs worth of Baroque free downloads, scroll down to see the list, thumbnails of album covers, click to view tracks and a few notes, left click on a track and listen or right click and select "Save as" to download.

For Bach organ lovers there are 7 albums of Bach played on Silberman organs; for UK composers, John Stanley Opus 2 Organ and Harpsichord concerti, Boyce and Croft sonatas & symphonies, Purcell; a number of albums of pedal harpsichord, plus a number of other composers I'd never heard of.

http://www.baroquemusic.org/bmlcatalogue.html


----------



## Ingélou

I've been finishing off my stay at the *Arcangelo Corelli Hill Station* by listening to his *Concerti Grossi*, here played by the Slovak Chamber Orchestra, 1975. 





These pieces are sprightly and elegant, and sometimes more, but I was beginning to feel that I admired Corelli, rather than loved him.

BUT - then one of the concerti *caught* me :angel: - I looked at which one it was, and it was the Christmas Concerto, which I've listened to a few times. So I decided that if I listened to Corelli more often, I would certainly develop an affection for him.

And in fact I started to find the concerti after no. 8 more to my palate.
They had a richness of sound that took me with them, willy nilly.
Either Corelli got warmer, or else I did. 

I will have to return to Corelli Hill Station and do the tour again. 
But now, goodbye, Corelli :wave:- hello, Georg Muffat. :tiphat:


----------



## Dorsetmike

I enjoy searching for and listening to less well known baroque and earlier works, the album linked below is but one example, a mix of organ and choral works by Czech composers, including an Organ concerto

Left click on a track to listen, right click for free download

http://www.baroquemusic.org/27Web.html


----------



## Ingélou

Ingélou said:


> *OP Project - Progress.*
> 
> Just for my own convenience, here's my list of the baroque composers I've listened to so far from the Wiki list, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Baroque_composers, with the 'extras', the non-list composers, marked in red.
> 
> *1. Jacopo Peri
> 2. Giulio Cacchini
> 3. Francesca Cacchini
> 4. Sweelinck
> 5. Monteverdi
> 6. Allegri
> 7. Frescobaldi
> 8. Schutz
> 9. Scheidt
> 10. Cavalli
> 11. William Lawes
> 12. Henry Lawes
> 13. John Jenkins
> 14. John Ward
> 15. Bertali
> 16. Carissimi
> 17. Froberger
> 18. Barbara Strozzi
> 19.Schmelzer
> 20. D'Anglebert
> 21. Lully
> 22. Uccellini
> 23. Charpentier
> 24. Elisabeth Jacquet de la Guerre
> 25. Buxtehude
> 26. Biber
> 27. Pachelbel
> 28. Corelli
> *
> and before I go on to the next one on the Wiki list, *Marin Marais*, I intend to listen to *Muffat* and then *Jean-Fery Rebel*.


The Baroque Era is so jam-packed with lovely composers that no wonder Wiki had to cut some out on their short-list - but I think I must listen to some of these 'extras' as well as Muffat and Rebel. I shall probably do so at the end, unless I see a handy chronological slot.

Most of these names I've come across because of my violin playing - I spent three and a half years of my lessons (now in my seventh year) learning to play baroque. Some of these composers were in the music books I used, and some recommended directly by my HIP Violin teacher. He is a character - lessons can be gruelling and startling, but they are never boring, and I have learned such a lot.




Thanks, Fiddle Guru! :tiphat:

So - in no particular order, and forgive my codger's brain if I accidentally include someone who is listed - here are my extras -

Pandolfi (oh, he's gorgeous)
Pepusch 
Louis Couperin
Duval
De Fesch (a special favourite of mine)
Veracini
Matteis
Torelli 
Piani

Anyone else out there?
Well, there's bound to be. 

There is a huge inclusive list below the main Wiki entry, I've just noticed - duh! - but I would need an extra grant of life to undertake listening to them all, so I am relying on you TC members and your experience to pick out cherries.

Thank you in advance for any further recommended add-ons. :tiphat:


----------



## Dorsetmike

I note that opera have a Youtube thread, might it be an idea to have one for Baroque? 

I would also like to see some discussion instead of, or as well as, "Likes"


----------



## Ingélou

Dorsetmike said:


> I note that opera have a Youtube thread, might it be an idea to have one for Baroque?
> 
> I would also like to see some discussion instead of, or as well as, "Likes"


Ah, sorry - I missed the point*. 
Did you mean a YouTube thread for baroque music, or baroque opera?

On reflection, I am not sure if it is a good idea. I think there'd be too much hassle about whether a piece of music or a piece of opera qualified for the baroque title.

But what do other people think? :tiphat:

(* I thought at first you meant starting a display thread for baroque opera and asking people to discuss it as they posted, which did seem a good idea if you were up for it.

But I've just read your introductory post where it says you don't care for opera, so rather a gaffe.

Sorry - my bad! 
And to think that I used to teach English Comprehension for a living.)


----------



## Guest

Dirge said:


> François COUPERIN: _Quatre versets d'un motet composé de l'ordre du Roy_ (1703)
> :: Piau, Pelon, Rousset/Les Talens Lyriques [Virgin '93] ~ about 9 minutes all told
> 
> These light & airy little verset settings for two sopranos, two flutes, violin & continuo are remarkable for their rarefied intricacy and somber-tinged charm, and the voices seem to float in the ether at times. The unaccompanied opening verset emerges from nothingness and is in full bloom before you know it, so you'll want to be focused and ready to go in a quiet environment when you hit the "Play" button.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (the first video contains the first _and_ second versets, the second beginning at about the 1'21" mark)


This was an absolutely superb recommendation - my thanks for providing it as I was completely unaware of its existence until know.

I would like to strongly encourage you to delve deeper into this release by Musique de la Chapelle Royale de Versaille as there are a total of 82 tracks available from the original 5 cd box which are now available on YouTube and they are a revelation that should be shared.


----------



## Dorsetmike

> I think there'd be too much hassle about whether a piece of music or a piece of opera qualified for the baroque title.


My original interpretation of Baroque is music written between 1600 and 1750, at least that's what Google suggests



> Medieval or Gothic Period (approx. 800-1400)
> Renaissance Period (approx. 1400-1600)
> Baroque Period (approx. 1600-1750)
> Classical Period (approx. 1750-1820)
> Romantic Period (approx. 1820-1910)
> Modern Period (approx. 1910-present)


How much does one allow in the approximation - if any? For example a composer born in say 1550 and liiving until say 1620 and composing between 1570 and 1620, does his music immediately change genre in January 1600?

I would suggest if the composer was alive and composing at least some of the time between 1600 and 1750 then all his/her work counts. Composers birth/death dates are known, actual dates of individual compositions are not always so clear.

As for opera in the Baroque period I can think of 2 composers without searching, Monteverdi and Purcell,


----------



## Guest

The Transition from Renaissance to Baroque (1575-1625) -

http://lcsproductions.net/MusicHistory/MusHistRev/Articles/RenToBar.html

Transition from Renaissance to Baroque in instrumental music -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transition_from_Renaissance_to_Baroque_in_instrumental_music

The Transition between Baroque and Classical -

http://blackfacesound.com/intersilo/Baroque-Classical.htm


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## Dorsetmike

Would both of the following be accepted by contributors to this thread as Baroque one written 1740s the other in 1775


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## Ingélou

Dorsetmike said:


> Would both of the following be accepted by contributors to this thread as Baroque one written 1740s the other in 1775


Yes, as far as I'm concerned. 
It's a matter of style - dates are just an approximate guide.

I made the thread, but I don't own it.

And in any case, I'm not against music from outside the period I'm working to (1600-1760) being posted - I just prefer these posts to be occasional and also relevant to the discussion.

I admit, I got a little worried when Syd talked about 'follow-ups' to his pre-reformation music, because I know that when Syd gets enthusiastic he can be a wee bit prolific. 

So long as the thread isn't derailed from its title and OP, it's fine by me.

And if anyone wants to start another thread about baroque music with their own focus, I would welcome it, and post on it.

The more the merrier. I'd love baroque music to have a higher profile on Talk Classical.


----------



## Ingélou

Dorsetmike said:


> My original interpretation of Baroque is music written between 1600 and 1750, at least that's what Google suggests
> 
> How much does one allow in the approximation - if any? For example a composer born in say 1550 and liiving until say 1620 and composing between 1570 and 1620, does his music immediately change genre in January 1600?
> 
> I would suggest if the composer was alive and composing at least some of the time between 1600 and 1750 then all his/her work counts. Composers birth/death dates are known, actual dates of individual compositions are not always so clear.
> 
> As for opera in the Baroque period I can think of 2 composers without searching, Monteverdi and Purcell,


Are you asking in general, or about this thread, or about a thread on baroque music which you are planning to post?
Whatever the case, there's a discussion of this question at the start of the thread.

Speaking about my own policy for this thread - the dates - I go from 1600 to 1760 - are in place because I'm undertaking a listening project and I want to narrow it down.

*Of course* there is overlap and composers with a foot in both camps, as far as their style is concerned. There was a bit of discussion of Monteverdi as a case in point at the beginning of the thread.

Someone like John Jenkins was writing in the baroque period and counts as a 'baroque composer' but his style is much more old-fashioned & he went on writing in that style throughout a long life.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Jenkins_(composer)

Labels are only approximate - but they're also helpful - so that if we want to read about baroque music we can find ourselves in the right place, or if we're interested in romantic music, ditto.

My life interest has been English poetry - I am a retired teacher. If I taught a course called Metaphysical Poetry, it would of course look at Donne's origins in the Elizabethan period and the stylistic legacy - but I wouldn't be teaching, say, Thomas Campion, even though he's a contemporary of Donne's, because his style is more typically-Elizabethan.

I can't honestly see that there's a problem, as long as one makes it clear what is relevant to a particular thread.


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## Mandryka

How ought one to pronounce the word “baroque”, does it rhyme with rock or does it rhyme with croak? 

Maybe it’s like scone, and only people like Hyacinth Bucket would make it rhyme with croak.


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## Dorsetmike

My suggestion is for a separate thread for Baroque youtube, with maybe some relevant comment to amplify the likes/dislikes or to suggest alternative renditions.


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## Ingélou

Mandryka said:


> How ought one to pronounce the word "baroque", does it rhyme with rock or does it rhyme with croak?
> 
> Maybe it's like scone, and only people like Hyacinth Bucket would make it rhyme with croak.


As I understand it, in the UK we say 'baroque' music to rhyme with 'rock' and make jokes about 'baroque and roll'.

In the US, or some parts of it, they say 'baroque' to rhyme with croak and make jokes about 'if it ain't baroque, don't fix it.'

There's an interesting YouTube video I've posted before called 'When Folk Meets Baroque' - they make it rhyme exactly because one of the violin students presenting the lecture is American.




The pronunciation occurs in the first sentence of this video.


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## Taggart

Dorsetmike said:


> My suggestion is for a separate thread for Baroque youtube, with maybe some relevant comment to amplify the likes/dislikes or to suggest alternative renditions.


There is nothing to stop you starting such a thread. Many people already post Baroque music on Current Listening because that is viewed by most people and also because many members have wide ranging tastes in music. Specialists could look at your thread.

Please be aware that some people view the site on phones or on slow internet connections, so it is best to give links to You Tube rather than embedded videos as that can make the page very slow to load.


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## Jacck

J.S.BACH :: PARTITAS BWV 825-830 on clavichord
I heard this on piano and on harpsichord, but this interpretation on clavichord is also very interesting. It especially highlights the counterpoint


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## Ingélou

Dorsetmike said:


> ...
> As for opera in the Baroque period I can think of 2 composers without searching, Monteverdi and Purcell,


Rameau? Lully? Handel? Vivaldi? 

There are quite a few baroque opera threads on TC, as I found by googling. 
So just as useful information - for me in the future, as I've not seen or listened to enough operas of any kind. 

*Top ten favorite Baroque operas *
Top ten favorite Baroque operas

*Fabulous baroque operas*
Fabulous baroque operas

*What are your favorite baroque operas? *
What are your favorite baroque operas?

*Baroque Opera Arias*
Baroque Opera Arias

*The Greatest Baroque Opera Composer - *
The Greatest Baroque Opera Composer

*Top 5 Baroque Opera Composers *
Top 5 Baroque Opera Composers

*Baroque & Early Classical Opera*
Baroque & Early Classical Opera

*Best First Baroque Opera*
Best First Baroque Opera


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## Dorsetmike

William Boyce, Symphony No1 Opus 2, (if you like it, you can download it by right click and select "Save as")

http://www.baroquemusic.org/DLower/BMC06T3BoyceSymphony1Op2.mp3


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## Dirge

Gaspar SANZ (1640-1710): _Canarios_ (1674)
:: Julian Bream [RCA '65] ~ about one minute





_Canarios_ is a catchy little ditty apparently in the style of a folk dance from the Canary Islands; it's been borrowed by many composers, perhaps most famously by Joaquín Rodrigo for use in his _Fantasía para un gentilhombre_. The Bream recording is an old favorite of mine from halcyon days of yore, and it might well have been my first encounter with the guitarist/lutenist/etc. (via his _Baroque Guitar_ album).


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## Ingélou

*What a strange mischievous creature Brain is...
*
I got up in the middle of the night, as one does at my age, staggered to the bathroom, and *lo*, through my brain was running, note and nuance perfect, a performance of some baroque tune.

I knew it wasn't anything that I'd listened to recently, and felt that it was something I'd played on my violin - which was a puzzle, because I moved on to folk fiddle from baroque violin three years ago.

The ear worm didn't bother me - in fact, it was delightful, so sprightly. I replayed it consciously, enjoying every jaunty moment.

Then, just as I was dropping off, Brain impishly supplied the answer: it was a piece from an 'early music' seminar that Taggart had been given at his Swaledale Squeeze, a weekend concertina school that takes place every May in Reeth, Yorkshire.

I'd played it with him when we'd gone to our music teacher the next week - Fiddle Guru now plays the piano for us at our Tina Trio sessions.

Anyway, it's lovely - here it is, the Sailors' Dance from Purcell's Dido & Aeneas.


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## Mandryka

Jacck said:


> J.S.BACH :: PARTITAS BWV 825-830 on clavichord
> I heard this on piano and on harpsichord, but this interpretation on clavichord is also very interesting. It especially highlights the counterpoint


I think he's going to release a recording of these suites. The instrument is loud, on his website he says this



> My clavichord is built in 2009 by the Belgian builder Joris Potvlieghe, made according to building principles applied in Saxony around 1745-1770. This type of clavichord, with a compass of 5 octaves (FF-f3), is similar to what composers like J.S. Bach must have had, though the necessary compass for Bach's larger works like the Partitas is somewhat smaller (GG-d3). From a certain point in history (Haydn-Mozart-Beethoven up to his Waldstein sonata), a keyboard range of 5 octaves was, as a general rule, not exceeded. So, this instrument goes very well stylistically with music from Bach to young Beethoven.
> There is a prevalent idea that clavichords are problematic for concerts because of their limited sound output. But for me and my instrument, I've played for crowds of up to 250 people without any complaints regarding the lack of sound because how well the Potvlieghe projects. I'm convinced that, in the coming years, this "sensitive lady" will be heard much more!


https://www.authenticsound.org/instruments/

Joris Potvlieghe is a serious factor of keyboards, but what is he doing to make it project so forcefully? Is it some invention of his own? His website is useless, but on his wikipedia entry we read this with google translate



> But from his first klavichord this instrument has kept him interested most. [4]He mainly builds unbound double-edged klavichords inspired by Saxon models, such as instruments by Gottfried Silbermann (1683-1753), Christian Ernst Friederici (1709-1780), Gottfried Joseph Horn (1739-1797) and Philipp Jacob Specken (ca. 1685-1762). . But he does not make exact copies. From his very first instrument he experimented with all kinds of changes (including an open wooden framework as a bottom instead of a solid plank) of the historical model on which he based his instrument.


https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joris_Potvlieghe

Anyway the approach is the exact polar opposite of Menno van Delft's recording, who uses the Cobbe Collection's Christian Gotthelf Hoffmann 1784. The sound of it is so different from Wim Winter's clavichord that even if though it's probably true that Bach owned this type of instrunment, I suspect that it's been radically transformed by Potvlieghe.

The curator of the Cobbe Collection wrote the following about the Hoffmann 1784



> A clavichord has the simplest action of any keyboard instrument. The sound is produced only while a metal tangent attached to the inner end of the key lever is in contact with the string. This is a fine example of a Saxon clavichord such as would have been known by the Bach family. J.S. Bach's first biographer Nikolaus Forkel stated it was Bach's favourite instrument on account of its singing tone.


http://www.cobbecollection.co.uk/collection/11-clavichord/

Does Winter's instrument have a singing tone? For the moment I'm tempted to say that Winters stands to clavichords as Landowska stands to harpsichords.

I've posted a question about the instrument on youtube, we'll see what he has to say.


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## Dorsetmike

Not having yet read through all posts of this thread, I don't know if these links have been posted before, first is a New York radio station which is exploring the history of music starting way back, listing composers with concise biographies, discographies etc, it is a work in progress
http://www.hoasm.org/Welcome.html.

Next a source of scores listed A-Z by composer (over 700 A's) most of the scores are in the public domain and can be downloaded (PDF format), for some you may find a synthesized MIDI file that gives some idea of the work, also some discography is listed.
https://imslp.org/wiki/Category:Composers


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## Jacck

Mandryka said:


> Winters stands to clavichords as Landowska stands to harpsichords.


not sure what that means (not familiar with Landowka), but I found out that the favored instrument of JS Bach was Lautenwerck (lute-harpsichord). It has an interesting sound too, not as harsh on the ears as harpsichord


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## Mandryka

Jacck said:


> not sure what that means (not familiar with Landowka), but I found out that the favored instrument of JS Bach was Lautenwerck (lute-harpsichord). It has an interesting sound too, not as harsh on the ears as harpsichord


Yes but if I remember right he owned a few clavichords and according to Forkel, he played them very well. Every organist would have been familiar with clavichord as a practice instrument at least.


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## Dorsetmike

Elaine Comparone stands to Harpsichord too


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## Ingélou

I've completed another stage from my listening project - *Georg Muffat:*

I was made aware of this composer by my violin teacher in the days that I was learning to play baroque music with him. Muffat has Scottish blood and was a pupil of Lully's (it is thought) so he ticks a few boxes with me.

Shortly afterwards I asked Taggart to start this guestbook:
Georg Muffat

I notice also that there's a guestbook on Muffat's son Gottlieb:
Gottlieb Muffat

Maybe when I have some time I will listen to what I can find of Gottlieb's music.

Anyway, Muffat cropped up in my listening project, and I listened again to his concerti grossi - we bought these cds after my first Muffat craze - and I am happy to say that they do not disappoint.

Here's the same recording on YouTube - Musica Aeterna Bratislava/ Peter Zajicek:





Anyway, my verdict is *Gorgeous Georg!* :kiss:

Some of the themes in his concerti grossi are very like Lully's work, so I suppose that debars him from being in the top rank of composers. But I find in Muffat the same reflective assured élan that I find in Lully - the same sure-footed and redolent orchestration - so I'm glad that Fiddle Guru told me about him.


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## Ingélou

Next up is *Jean-Féry Rebel*, another of Lully's students. Again, the fact that I'm aware of him is all down to my violin teacher - he is Fiddle Guru's favourite French Baroque composer.

Here's the composer guestbook that I got Taggart to put up for him:
Jean-Féry Rebel

The piece that knocks everyone out, of course, is his Chaos in The Elements suite, here performed by Musica Antiqua Koln - that opening dissonance seems so modern, even though both dissonance and the thought-system behind this work are actually 'of the era'. 
But hey - it's just so powerful and so original-sounding.






Fiddle-Guru also loves Rebel's Characters of the Dance - here performed by Tempesta di Mare -






I love it too - it's just so joyous and alive. But then I love dance music of any sort.

We also have the cd of Andrew Manze playing Rebel's Violin sonatas - there are videos of this on YouTube:





We have listened to this a few times, and I will listen again today. I love these sonatas and I love the mellow and tender tone of Manze's violin. Rebel does seem to me to have a little more *heart* in his music than some of the other French Baroque composers. He is a very worthwhile stop on the Baroque Listening Project Main Line. :tiphat:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Next Stop - *Marin Marais*
I have only listened to (or played) bits and pieces of this composer and will be grateful to hear of any recommendations. Thank you. :tiphat:


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## Mandryka

The places I would start with Marais are the Sonnerie de Sainte Genevieve du Mont de Paris and the Suite d'un Goût Étranger. The interpretation here is by far and away my favourite, more so than Savall









If you listen to Marais you really should complement it with his alter ego, Antoine Forqueray. And the foundation of this type of music is IMO the best -- Sainte Colombe (le pere) If you read French there's a wonderful book, fiction, on Ste Colombe and Marais called Tous les matins du monde by Pascal Quignard. There's a film of it which Jordi was involved in.

I think what I've heard of Rebel has been most charming.


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## Ras

To me French Baroque music is difficult to get into. I find the soundscapes so different from the abstract mature German Baroque that I love so much. And it is also different from the mature Italian Baroque with it's pling-pling ding-thing happy go cappy approach to music making.


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## Mandryka

Ras said:


> To me French Baroque music is difficult to get into.


Try music which was less influenced by Louis XIV/Lully taste -- eg Titelouze, Roberday, Nivers, Grigny, Louis Couperin, Ennemond Gaultier, Charles Mouton, the D'Anglebert fugues, the late suites by Froberger



Ras said:


> I find the soundscapes so different from the abstract mature German Baroque that I love so much.


Some of Georg Bohm's music, and indeed J S Bach's, are very French sounding -- I'll dig up examples if you want. The opening tune of the st Matthew Passion is taken from a tombeau by Marin Marais.



Ras said:


> And it is also different from the mature Italian Baroque with it's pling-pling ding-thing happy go cappy approach to music making.


Well put


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## Jacck

Ras said:


> To me French Baroque music is difficult to get into. I find the soundscapes so different from the abstract mature German Baroque that I love so much. And it is also different from the mature Italian Baroque with it's pling-pling ding-thing happy go cappy approach to music making.


the Couperin and Rameau keyboard music is easy to get into imho (but everyone is different of course). You can try them on piano


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## premont

Mandryka said:


> Try music which was less influenced by Louis XIV/Lully taste -- eg Titelouze, Roberday, Nivers, Grigny, Louis Couperin, Ennemond Gaultier, Charles Mouton, the D'Anglebert fugues, the late suites by Froberger


And don't forget Pierre DuMage.



Mandryka said:


> Well put


What Mandryka said.


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## Ras

*Mandryka, Jacck and premont
*
Thank you very much for yours suggestions - that's a lot of music to try mostly by composers I have never heard about before!
I won't go down the Ingelou-path trying to swallow the whole roast in a few bites… I'll have to approach this slowly…

But I got started now with Tharaud's Harmonia Mundi recording of Rameau's harpsichord music - played on piano. 
I like it! 
I also have a piano cd by Angela Hewitt from Hyperion with F. Couperin's keyboard music.

This is the Rameau I'm listening to now:


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## Ingélou

Ras said:


> *Mandryka, Jacck and premont
> *
> 
> I won't go down the Ingelou-path trying to swallow the whole roast in a few bites… I'll have to approach this slowly…


Excuse me? So far I am not even half-way through the Wiki short-list, and it's been a year.

I am taking my time over a banquet with many dishes, and taking a good helping of each one.

Enjoy your own experience - I don't think it gains anything, though, by putting mine down. :tiphat:


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## Ingélou

Mandryka said:


> The places I would start with Marais are the Sonnerie de Sainte Genevieve du Mont de Paris and the Suite d'un Goût Étranger. The interpretation here is by far and away my favourite, more so than Savall
> 
> View attachment 108519
> 
> 
> If you listen to Marais you really should complement it with his alter ego, Antoine Forqueray. And the foundation of this type of music is IMO the best -- Sainte Colombe (le pere) If you read French there's a wonderful book, fiction, on Ste Colombe and Marais called Tous les matins du monde by Pascal Quignard. There's a film of it which Jordi was involved in.
> 
> I think what I've heard of Rebel has been most charming.


Thanks for the recommendation.

Taggart & I watched the film of Tous Les Matins du Monde - we enjoyed it and we thought the music was marvellous but found the plot and characterisation a bit ridiculous (and inaccurate historically).

:tiphat: Thanks also for mentioning Forqueray - I am beginning to think, ruefully, that this Baroque Listening Project of mine is a little like the Herculean Task of defeating the Hydra.


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## Ras

Ingélou said:


> Excuse me? So far I am not even half-way through the Wiki short-list, and it's been a year.
> 
> I am taking my time over a banquet with many dishes, and taking a good helping of each one.
> 
> Enjoy your own experience - I don't think it gains anything, though, by putting mine down. :tiphat:


Sorry, Ingelou I didn't mean to offend you or putting your experience down. On the contrary I admire your dedication to the task you set yourself.


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## Ingélou

Ras said:


> Sorry, Ingelou I didn't mean to offend you or putting your experience down. On the contrary I admire your dedication to the task you set yourself.


Well - okay then....


----------



## Guest

Ingélou said:


> Next up is *Jean-Féry Rebel*, another of Lully's students. Again, the fact that I'm aware of him is all down to my violin teacher - he is Fiddle Guru's favourite French Baroque composer.
> 
> The piece that knocks everyone out, of course, is his Chaos in The Elements suite, here performed by Musica Antiqua Koln - that opening dissonance seems so modern, even though both dissonance and the thought-system behind this work are actually 'of the era'.
> But hey - it's just so powerful and so original-sounding.


Before heading off to Marais perhaps you might be interested in hearing one last version of "Les Élémens" that I prefer to that recorded by MAK as it seems to be a more harmonious thus better balanced approach to the recording but to each his (or her) own, eh? -


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## Jacck

the Elements by Rebel sounds incredibly progressive for its time, like a baroque version of the Rite of Spring.


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## Larkenfield

For the love of Baroque... Baroque music performance: "Authentic" or "Traditional", Bach & Mendelssohn:
http://www.baroquemusic.org/barperf.html


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## Taggart

Fascinating article. Interesting on the balance of the harpsichord. What the article forgets is how the harpsichord does *not *sound out. We've been to live concerts in churches where it can be very difficult to hear the harpsichord even solo, even in the front row whereas a violin can fill the space. Doubtless you need a small room where the instruments can be more evenly balanced, but that would be a *very* expensive concert to go to.


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## Mandryka

Taggart said:


> We've been to live concerts in churches where it can be very difficult to hear the harpsichord even solo,


So have I.

But I recall hearing harpsichord recitals in La Cité de la Musique and at the Theâtre des Abbesses in Paris, and indeed in Milton Court which is part of the Barbican Centre, where the harpsichord was absolutely clear. Same at St Johns Smith Square in London where I heard some concertos and at Le Theâtre des Bouffes du Nord where I heard Lully's music for Le Bourgeois Gentilehomme, I suppose it depends on the acoustics of the environment, and where you sit, and the state of your hearing, and no generalisations should be made.


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## Dorsetmike

Following a link from the article to the album of Violin partitas and sonatas (BWV 1001 through 1006) played by Telmanyi with the German style bow, they can be listened to (and downloaded) from this link; examples of other topics can also be found from the links below the main body of text linked from Larkenfield's post

http://www.baroquemusic.org/91011Web.html


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## Ingélou

Larkenfield said:


> For the love of Baroque... Baroque music performance: "Authentic" or "Traditional", Bach & Mendelssohn:
> http://www.baroquemusic.org/barperf.html


Thank you so much for posting this, Larkenfield. :tiphat:

It is an excellent article which has made me think & reflect. I shall be reading it again.

It made me realise that HIP Baroque playing cannot help but reflect 21st century fashions too - just as 1930s Hollywood films about history can't help the actors sounding and looking of their age, even while sporting farthingales and doublets, or as Alma-Tadema's paintings of the Ancient World, in some ways wonderfully 'authentic' are also in some respect Victorian gentlemen in togas.


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## Larkenfield

So glad you enjoyed the article, Ingélou. I have never read such a detailed account of Mendelssohn's performance of Bach's music at the time. It was fascinating… and the entire Baroque website looks outstanding. Of course, the music itself is so special. http://www.baroquemusic.org/index.html


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## Dorsetmike

I found another design of bow which works on a similar principle, but instead of using the thumb to tension the bow string he uses an adjustable bow which looks to be hinged at the point he holds it easier to watch in action than to try and describe in words, luckily he's playing Bach.


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## Guest

Further information on period bows...

https://baroquebows.com/ - (Basil De Visser Period Bows)

"Maker of Baroque, Classical and early Romantic bows for all stringed instruments, based on historical examples

Historical bows customised as desired, also to suit modern instruments

Restoration and repairs of all bows, modern and historical

Recambering of all bows to restore optimal curvature

Rehair service ready for pick up next day

Favourite speciality: making an exact copy of your historical bow"

The Baroque bow (The violin bow, part I) -

https://www.corilon.com/shop/en/info/baroque-bow.html

The Classical violin bow (The violin bow, part II) -

https://www.corilon.com/shop/en/info/classical-bow.html


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## Marinera

Taggart said:


> Fascinating article. Interesting on the balance of the harpsichord. What the article forgets is how the harpsichord does *not *sound out. We've been to live concerts in churches where it can be very difficult to hear the harpsichord even solo, even in the front row whereas a violin can fill the space. Doubtless you need a small room where the instruments can be more evenly balanced, but that would be a *very* expensive concert to go to.


Very true. The first time I've heard a harpsichord live I think I instinctively even squinted at it, you know as if seeing it better would've improved the sound too, haha. In the concert hall harpsichords sound tiny and tinkling, barely audible. I really appreciate how well I can hear them in the recordings. Especially those with deep resonant sound


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## Ingélou

*Marin Marais* - *another talented baroque composer.

What follows is simply my personal response to this latest name on my Wiki Listening Project.

It is his viol music that stands out from the rest, and it is always lovely and sometimes ravishing - it is just that I am not a huge enthusiast for swathes of melancholy musing.

The default mode for viol is 'pensive' and for Marais, it's often 'languorous' or 'brooding' and - I suppose I just haven't got the patience. My bad!* 

*Here's what I listened to - links, not videos, as I've noticed that they have quite a high rate of disappearing once they've been mentioned on this thread. Or am I getting paranoid?*

*Marin Marais Works for Viola da Gamba, Sophie Watillon - *




*lovely playing, but there are weirdly long silences of c. 2 minutes between tracks - some of the YT comments on this are interesting. Fantastic folia finale!*

*Marin Marais - Classical Baroque HQ - *




 *Sprightly stuff - no details as to who is playing or what is being played. Elegant French carpet. Pleasant, but a bit of an also-ran.
*
*Marin Marais Pièces en trio pour les flûtes, violon, et dessus de viole - Croatian Baroque ensemble*




*An actual video of an absolutely delightful performance - wish I'd been there.*

*Viol Music for the Sun King - Spectre de la Rose - *




*Lovely, refreshing - I love it. Finishes with the inevitable Folia.
*
*Marin Marais Trio Pieces for Flute, Violin and Viola da gamba - Aux Pieds du Roy Ensemble - *




*This I really love - gorgeous spirited playing that carries me along. 
*
*Marin Marais - Le Badinage - Jordi Savall -*




*A little disappointing - lacked outline. 
*
*Marin Marais - Tombeau du Monsieur Meliton -*




*It's nice enough - pleasantly melancholy. 
*
*Marin Marais Works for Viole and other instruments - Philippe Foulon*




*Starts with a 15 minute version of the folia & variations - lovely, of course. Great viol playing & fab sound.
Wonderfully expressive viol which blends with an inventive harpsichord, like a duet. I thought I'd be bored by miles of viol, but instead it made me want to take up the instrument myself. Plus - a very pleasant guitar piece at the end.

The video poster links to this cd on Amazon - The viol player is Philippe Foulon.
*









*An interesting comment from below the video:*
*Being one mad Jordi Savall's fan of the same recorded material by Marais I was very pleasantly surprised by virtuosity and elegant performance of Philippe Foulon, the gambist here. Never heard of him and it is a shame (to me!) since since he is just a fantastic player with natural feel for instrument, style of music and the material itself. Rich sound, rhythmic nuance and utter musical taste and awareness of improvisational aspect of baroque performance makes his interpretation sounding authentic and effortlessly elegant, alive and just infinitely enjoyable! I guess the stable of my gambists faves has just gotten a new worthy addition.﻿
*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*Verdict: It was a good experience, and I like his music, and would recommend it, but without raving about him.

And even then, I do sometimes. *


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## Ingélou

*'For Love of the Baroque' - My Baroque Listening Project* 
(see OP) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Baroque_composers

The Wiki short list, with some extras suggested by others. :tiphat:

*Running Index* - for convenience; noting my posts on completing a composer, with some of Taggart's.
Often there are comments or recommendations by others at around the same spot.

1. Jacopo Peri #7
2. Giulio Cacchini #24
3. Francesca Cacchini #25 #29 #41
4. Sweelinck #44 #48 #55 #59 #103
5. Monteverdi #134 #146 #176 #176 #181 #248 #271
6. Allegri #249 #252 #257
7. Frescobaldi #35 #300 #302 #326
8. Schutz #327 #329 #330 #343
9. Scheidt #363
10. Cavalli #366
11. William Lawes #279 #374 #385 #386 #388 #390
12. Henry Lawes #393 #399 #400 #401 #402
13. John Jenkins #403
14. John Ward #408
15. Bertali #406 #410 #416 #417
16. Carissimi #422 #425 #426 #428 #431 #432 #434 
17. Froberger #435 #438 #439 #447 #448
18. Strozzi #457 #459 #463 #466
19. Schmelzer #467 #468 #469 470
20. D'Anglebert #472
21. Lully #473 #592
22. Kerll #477
23. Uccellini #474
24. Charpentier #486 #488 #489
25 Jacquet de la Guerre #490 #491 #493
26. Buxtehude #494 #507 #508 #511 #514 #564
27. Biber #512 #523 #524 #525
28. Pachelbel #541 #575 #588 #597
29. Corelli #600 #604 #609 #635
30. Georg Muffat #184 #189 #225 #660
31. Rebel #661
32. Marin Marais #683

Next one up: Antoine Fouqueray

I will repost the Running Index every so often.

*My thanks for all helpful and positive posts on this thread. * :tiphat:


----------



## Guest

In regards to Marin Marais...

This title was awarded Gramophone's April 2018 Editor's Choice -

"Marin Marais: Pièces de viole - La Rêveuse" - Benjamin Perrot, Florence Bolton -






Gramophone's April 2014 Editor's Choice -

"Sonnerie & other portraits" - Fantasticus






Gramophone's "Best Kept Secrets" -

"A Solo - Music for viola da gamba" - Paolo Pandolfo (violas da gamba) -






Gramophone's "Disc of the Month" for September 2008 -

"Garth Knox - Music for Viola d'amore from 1600 to the present day" -






As with all links that I provide it's a toss up as to whether or not they're blocked in countries which are not in fact Canada but the titles themselves can often be sampled on the site of your choice.

I reckon this post runs the risk of generating a  and a rather tart "Even more Marais? - Thanks but no thanks, Syd!" but you never know, eh?


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## Mandryka

Sydney Nova Scotia said:


> "A Solo - Music for viola da gamba" - Paolo Pandolfo (violas da gamba) -


Pandolfo has pioneered an original technique where he grazes the strings to produce an encapsulated sound, rather than making the instrument sing forth. I believe it's quite influential, I think Savall started to use it on his second Tobias Hume recording. (I haven't looked at that YouTube but I know one of his CDs called "A Solo")

Marais seems to me right in the Louis XIV style, anyone who likes François Couperin will find a lot to enjoy I think.


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## Ingélou

*Women in Baroque Music:*

There are women to be celebrated and their music shared in baroque music - I mean, both composers and players - and every so often I'll put a post on this thread.

Today's is *Rachel Podger*, the HIP baroque violinist.

I've seen her twice now - each time at Norwich Cathedral, playing with Norwich Baroque - and she is amazing. Not just as a player, but as a person - she is so warm and lively that she inspires all around her, so that Norwich Baroque have responded with passion and sounded their very best.

Rachel went into the pulpit both times, and sounded like an angel as she played some Bach that she'd arranged for solo violin.

In this video the music is by Biber - the Guardian Angel Passacaglia - but it still seems appropriate:


----------



## Biwa

I'm a huge fan of Rachel Podger. Haven't had the chance to hear her live, though. 2 times!!? I'm a bit envious to say the least. . Fortunately, I do have quite a few of her wonderful recordings. Her 2003 recording of Vivaldi's La Stravaganza with Arte dei Suonatori was a big success. Now listening to it.









I am looking forward to listening to her recent release of Vivaldi's The Four Seasons. And although it's not quite Baroque, her cycle of Mozart's violin sonatas accompanied by Gary Cooper on fortepiano is also superb.


----------



## Biwa

Now I've moved onto Podger's 2014 release "Perla Barocca".









It's a lovely collection of early Italian pieces:

Giovanni Battista Fontana: Sonata Seconda
Girolamo Frescobaldi: Toccata Prima; Toccata per Spinettina e Violino 
Marco Uccellini: Sonata overo Toccata quinta a violino solo, "detta la Laura rilucente"
Dario Castello: Sonata Seconda
Biago Marini: Sonata quatro per sonar con due corde
Giovanni Antonio Pandolfi Mealli: Sonata Sesta, Op 4 "La Vinciolina"
Isabella Leonarda: Sonata Duodecima
Andrea Gabrieli: Ricercar del Primo Tono
Giovanni Paolo Cima: Sonata a due
Antonio Bertali: Chiacona

The music is very expressive but more reflective than the festive La Stravaganza, and at times melancholy. Podger's exquisite playing, though, makes this a joy to listen to. Marcin Swiatkiewicz on harpsichord/organ and Daniele Caminiti on theorbo provide excellent accompaniment. I love the alternative use of both harpsichord and organ. They give each piece and the overall collection a variety of colors & moods.


----------



## Guest

Rachel Podger Masterclass videos -

"Rachel Podger on Bach: Stylistic Subtleties" -






"Rachel Podger: 7ths and Resolutions In Bach" -






"Rachel Podger: How to Match Technique and Musicality" -






"Rachel Podger and Schizophrenic Performing" -






"Rachel Podger: How To Connect Two Parts Of A Suite" -


----------



## Ingélou

*Women in Baroque Music* - Barbara Strozzi:

I was just browsing and discovered this short video about Barbara Strozzi by Classic fm, the UK radio station much execrated by moody, may he rest in peace. :tiphat:

https://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/barbara-strozzi/

I haven't listened yet - time for breakfast - but I look forward to it.


----------



## classical yorkist

Can anyone please help me out with some book suggestions please. I'm looking for a good baroque related read, it doesn't have to be music but it would sure be nice. Ideally something like _Evening in the Palace of Reason_ (which I will heartily reccomend to all of you), fun but without too much dry musicology as I don't understand it very well. Cultural history, social history, arts anything like that. Has anybody read any good biographies of, say, Vivaldi or Monteverdi or knows a good book about baroque Venice? Heck, I'd even be willing to read fiction to get my baroque fix at the moment!


----------



## Ingélou

I hope you get some replies - I'd love to read something like that.

Funny, I was just thinking of you because I saw this on Dorsetmike's Baroque YouTube thread and remembered you recommended him. It's lovely - I'm listening as I type.






Giovanni Gabrieli - Canzonas & Sonatas.


----------



## classical yorkist

Ingélou said:


> Funny, I was just thinking of you because I saw this on Dorsetmike's Baroque YouTube thread and remembered you recommended him. It's lovely - I'm listening as I type.


He's such an important composer straddling the end of the Renaissance/beginning of the Baroque. Venice was really at, and often over, the limits of what was acceptable with religious music at this time often incurring the wrath of Rome and ignoring it. Gabrieli was instrumental in the development of music in religion that didn't just mirror the human voice in the mass, instead he allowed the music in religious services to have it's own identity and develop and flow on from there.


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## classical yorkist

Just a short video to appreciate Gabrieli's use of music and voices in the Venetian polychoral style.











And a couple more, he's just that good.


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## Ingélou

Oh brilliant - thank you!


----------



## Dorsetmike

I watched the National brass ensemble "the making of Gabrielli" vid on you tube, lot of talk with shot music extracts about making the record






found it interesting, looking on Amazon the end result is avalable on CD or MP3, is it worth getting, it's not on period instruments so I'm wondering if it's worthwhile.


----------



## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> Can anyone please help me out with some book suggestions please. I'm looking for a good baroque related read, it doesn't have to be music but it would sure be nice. Ideally something like _Evening in the Palace of Reason_ (which I will heartily reccomend to all of you), fun but without too much dry musicology as I don't understand it very well. Cultural history, social history, arts anything like that. Has anybody read any good biographies of, say, Vivaldi or Monteverdi or knows a good book about baroque Venice? Heck, I'd even be willing to read fiction to get my baroque fix at the moment!


Just bumping your request & hoping someone can answer.

:tiphat: Also thanking you - Taggart has ordered the _Evening in the Palace of Reason_ as he's a dyed in the wool Bachite and we're both looking forward to reading it.


----------



## Jacck

classical yorkist said:


> Can anyone please help me out with some book suggestions please. I'm looking for a good baroque related read, it doesn't have to be music but it would sure be nice. Ideally something like _Evening in the Palace of Reason_ (which I will heartily reccomend to all of you), fun but without too much dry musicology as I don't understand it very well. Cultural history, social history, arts anything like that. Has anybody read any good biographies of, say, Vivaldi or Monteverdi or knows a good book about baroque Venice? Heck, I'd even be willing to read fiction to get my baroque fix at the moment!


I like reading period baroque books. I would recommend a marvellous book by Jan Amos Comenius
https://www.amazon.com/John-Comenius-Labyrinth-Paradise-Spirituality/dp/0809137399
or Simplicius Simplicissimus
https://www.amazon.com/Adventures-Simplicius-Simplicissimus-Christoffel-Grimmelshausen/dp/0241309867
or Tristram Shandy
https://www.amazon.com/Opinions-Tristram-Shandy-Gentleman-Classics/dp/0199532893


----------



## Ingélou

Jacck said:


> I like reading period baroque books. I would recommend a marvellous book by Jan Amos Comenius
> https://www.amazon.com/John-Comenius-Labyrinth-Paradise-Spirituality/dp/0809137399
> or Simplicius Simplicissimus
> https://www.amazon.com/Adventures-Simplicius-Simplicissimus-Christoffel-Grimmelshausen/dp/0241309867
> or Tristram Shandy
> https://www.amazon.com/Opinions-Tristram-Shandy-Gentleman-Classics/dp/0199532893


Gosh! :tiphat:

I had a friend, like me an English teacher, whose favourite book was Tristram Shandy. I decided to read it - you know, it's very quirky in the way it's set out, part of its remit - even a 'black page':
https://instruct.uwo.ca/english/234e/site/supplmts/blckpg.html

Anyway, unbeknown to me, the massive paperback edition I'd bought had a 'real' typographical quirk - it was missing twenty pages. Such being the nature of the book, I read it all (ploughing, horribly) and *never even noticed.* :lol:


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## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> Can anyone please help me out with some book suggestions please. I'm looking for a good baroque related read, it doesn't have to be music but it would sure be nice. Ideally something like _Evening in the Palace of Reason_ (which I will heartily reccomend to all of you), fun but without too much dry musicology as I don't understand it very well. Cultural history, social history, arts anything like that. Has anybody read any good biographies of, say, Vivaldi or Monteverdi or knows a good book about baroque Venice? Heck, I'd even be willing to read fiction to get my baroque fix at the moment!


I came across this book about French Baroque - has anyone read this?










This biography of Vivaldi gets a good customer review, and is said to be readable, but it does also seem to have a big section that's not so easy to cope with if you're not a musicologist.










~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Any more for any more?

Please, anyone out there, if you find a readable book about Baroque musicians or composers or other artists, remember this thread and tell us about it.

Thank you. :tiphat:


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## Mandryka

classical yorkist said:


> Can anyone please help me out with some book suggestions please. I'm looking for a good baroque related read, it doesn't have to be music but it would sure be nice. Ideally something like _Evening in the Palace of Reason_ (which I will heartily reccomend to all of you), fun but without too much dry musicology as I don't understand it very well. Cultural history, social history, arts anything like that. Has anybody read any good biographies of, say, Vivaldi or Monteverdi or knows a good book about baroque Venice? Heck, I'd even be willing to read fiction to get my baroque fix at the moment!


I haven't read anything about Vivaldi or Monteverdi, one book I've found useful is Manfred F Bukofzer, Music in the Baroque Era. Therre's also a good book, if you're interested in the music, on the Couperin family called Francois Couperin and The French Classical Tradition, by Wilfrid Mellers.

For fiction, try Tous les matins du monde, I'm sure there's an English translation if you can't read French, the author is Pascal Quignard.


----------



## Jacck

Ingélou said:


> Gosh - you have stamina. :tiphat:
> 
> I had a friend, like me an English teacher, whose favourite book was Tristram Shandy. I decided to read it - you know, it's very quirky in the way it's set out, part of its remit -
> https://instruct.uwo.ca/english/234e/site/supplmts/blckpg.html
> 
> Anyway, unbeknown to me, the massive paperback edition I'd bought had a real typographical quirk - it was missing twenty pages. Such being the nature of the book, I read it all (ploughing, horribly) and *never even noticed.* :lol:


I read the Czech translation and the graphical elements got lost in translation. It was not a particularly hard reading (such as Ulysses from Joyce), and the book was full of humor. I like reading period books, because they allow a glimpse into the mentality of the time written by someone who actually lived in those times. There is something fascinating about reading Seneca or Marcus Aurelius and marvelling how much the world was the same then as it is now. Or reading the Old Testament. I do not believe in the Jewish God and view the Old Testament as collection of Jewish myths (fairy-tales about the historical origin of their own nation). But there is something fascinating about reading this 3000 years old history of ancient shepards from the Middle East who conquered other nations and were conquered by other nations and then created their ethno-centric myths about it


----------



## Ingélou

@Jacck, above - Taggart & I once decided to read the bible from cover to cover. I take your point about learning about the mentality, but we gave up half way through Deuteronomy, bemused by the endless specifications of the Ark of the Covenant, its red badger skins and shittim wood - I believe that last is now translated 'acacia' wood. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*'I haven't read anything about Vivaldi or Monteverdi, one book I've found useful is Manfred F Bukofzer, Music in the Baroque Era.

For fiction, try Tous les matins du monde, I'm sure there's an English translation if you can't read French, the author is Pascal Quignard.'* quote, post 702.

*Thanks, Mandryka.* :tiphat:










I've often wondered about this book. When you say you find it _useful_, is it also 'readable'?
Or mainly a reference book?


----------



## Mandryka

It’s a serious read, a scholarly text.


----------



## Ingélou

This one gets good customer reviews and I'm rather tempted...










... and maybe even more for this one, 'written for music lovers not musicologists' - yep, that's me! 










~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Jonathan Keates - Handel, the Man & his Music

Jane Glover - Handel in London: The Making of a Genius


----------



## classical yorkist

I know about the _Handel in London_ and can't wait to read it.
This is an excellent example of what I like:







It also has a chapter on Handel


----------



## classical yorkist

My latest purchase and I'm listening now.









Played on the only surviving 16th century Venetian organ.


----------



## Ingélou

*Antoine Forqueray *
(No. 33 on my OP Listening Project - thanks, Mandryka. :tiphat

The *Guestbook* is here - Antoine Forqueray (1672-1745)

*Wiki* says - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoine_Forqueray -
'*At the time of Forqueray's appointment the most renowned viol player at court was Marin Marais, who was famous for his sweet and gentle musical style. Forqueray in contrast became renowned for his dramatic, striking and brash style. According to Hubert Le Blanc, **Marais played like an angel, and Forqueray like the devil.'*

There wasn't a lot to listen to on YouTube - only a small amount of what Forqueray wrote has survived (so far - one can always hope).

Here's what I listened to on YT with my thoughts at the time:

There are a couple of videos here of Forqueray's viol music.

*1. A mixed collection, described as - Antoine & Jean-Baptiste Forqueray Suites for Viola da Gamba and B.c.*




It's nice enough, without raving about it. Some pieces perked me up, but mostly I was a bit bored. Interestingly, about half an hour in is what sounds like an earlier version, in a different key, of the first part of Beethoven's Ode to Joy. Was it a folk melody that each has arranged?

*2. FORQUERAY - Pièces de Viole - SAVALL, COIN & KOOPMAN.wmv*




Nice enough, but a bit gloomy for my taste. At 30 minutes in there's that 'Ode to Joy' piece again. The deeper viol sounds a bit humphling and untuneful, but I suspect that could be connected with my age-related hearing deterioration.

*3. Antoine Forqueray Harpsichord Works, Gustav Leonhardt*




It's lovely. If these are harpsichord versions of original viol music, I'll take the harpsichord. Maybe it's just the way it's performed, and it's certainly just a personal taste, but it has more life.

*Verdict - *
Pleasant enough, and I am glad to have added another village to my mental road map of baroque music - but I'm a bit dismayed not to have heard any sign of Forqueray's 'devil'-like music as in the wiki quote. 
No wildness or thrilling abandon or enticing possibilities.
Maybe it really was down to Forqueray's own playing, or maybe the 'devil' pieces just haven't survived. 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The next one up - going back in time to _Giovanni Gabrieli _(thanks, classical yorkist! :tiphat


----------



## classical yorkist

I ended up buying this:








Not quite what I was after but it still looks like a good read.


----------



## Biwa

Thought I'd join your exploration of Forqueray, with another viola da gamba recital. This recording also includes works by F. Couperin. I agree the rich, dark textures of this music do require me to be in a certain mood to fully appreciate it. But how I do love the slow movements' leisurely yet expressive manner. The notes seem to linger in mid-air like a musky incense wafting through the room while being gently intertwined by the harpsichord.

François Couperin: Première Suite in E minor, Deuxième Suite in A major, La Superbe ou la Forqueray
Antoine Forqueray: Quatrieme Suite in G minor

Rainer Zipperling, Sofia Diniz (viola da gambas)
Pieter-Jan Belder (harpsichord)


----------



## Marinera

I also decided to listen to Forqueray. I am listening to several albums at once, comparing the same pieces, and it is also easier to form a better picture of each composition when you heard several versions. So far I focus on 1st and 5th suites. very enjoyable


----------



## Biwa

Starting this morning with a favorite of mine... Händel (and friends). I just picked this one up the other day. It's a beautiful collection of arias celebrating the 31-year career of soprano Giulia Frasi who helped develop the soprano roles in several of Händel's famous oratorios.

Handel's Last Prima Donna (Giulia Frasi in London)

Ruby Hughes (soprano)
Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment
Douglas Cummings (conductor)


----------



## Biwa

classical yorkist said:


> My latest purchase and I'm listening now.
> 
> View attachment 109050
> 
> 
> Played on the only surviving 16th century Venetian organ.


How are you liking that one? I'm a big fan of Giovanni Gabrieli, AND organs. I can't seem to get enough of either! Always on the look out for new recordings.

This one by the Concerto Palatino was performed in the Basilica of San Petronio in Bologna, which has 2 organs dating from 1471 and 1475. I still enjoy this recording after all these many years.


----------



## classical yorkist

Biwa said:


> How are you liking that one? I'm a big fan of Giovanni Gabrieli, AND organs. I can't seem to get enough of either! Always on the look out for new recordings.
> 
> This one by the Concerto Palatino was performed in the Basilica of San Petronio in Bologna, which has 2 organs dating from 1471 and 1475. I still enjoy this recording after all these many years.
> 
> View attachment 109094


My new CD is very good but quite academic rather than an enveloping musical experience. CD 1 is organ works played on a Venetian organ of 1533 (the only remaining one), CD 2 is played on an anonymous 17th century harpsichord and is really wonderful and CD 3 is a mopping up exercise of organ and harpsichord. If you're serious about Gabrieli it's worth a punt and, as usual, all at Brilliant Classics excellent price point.


----------



## Biwa

classical yorkist said:


> My new CD is very good but quite academic rather than an enveloping musical experience. CD 1 is organ works played on a Venetian organ of 1533 (the only remaining one), CD 2 is played on an anonymous 17th century harpsichord and is really wonderful and CD 3 is a mopping up exercise of organ and harpsichord. If you're serious about Gabrieli it's worth a punt and, as usual, all at Brilliant Classics excellent price point.


Thanks for the review! It's on my wishlist. I'll keep an eye out for it at my local music shop. I go there often enough.


----------



## Biwa

Marinera said:


> I also decided to listen to Forqueray. I am listening to several albums at once, comparing the same pieces, and it is also easier to form a better picture of each composition when you heard several versions. So far I focus on 1st and 5th suites. very enjoyable


Have you decided on your baroque selection yet?

This thread has got me on a bit of viola da gamba kick. Now listening to another gorgeous recording courtesy of Marianne Muller & Ensemble Spirale:

Tombeau pour Mr. de Ste. Colombe & autres portraits...


----------



## Guest

For anyone who is new to this thread and finds it interesting but perhaps at times a bit intimidating you may be interested in working your way through the "Baroque" module of this self-paced course -

https://courses.lumenlearning.com/musicapp-medieval-modern/

*Baroque*

Baroque Playlist

Listening Helps-Baroque

Introduction to Baroque Music

Slideshow: Introduction to Baroque Music

The Baroque Period

More on the Baroque Period

Basso Continuo

Doctrine of the Affections

Introduction to Vocal Music in the Baroque

Slideshow: Vocal Music in the Baroque

Opera

Monody

Monteverdi's L'Orfeo

Henry Purcell

Dido and Aeneas

Cantata

Oratorio

Introduction to Instrumental Music in the Baroque

Slideshow: Instrumental Music in the Baroque

Sonata

Arcangelo Corelli

Sonata in B flat Major, Opus 5 No. 2: II Allegro

Concerto

Antonio Vivaldi

The Four Seasons

Suite

Introduction to Bach and Handel

Slideshow: The Late Baroque

Johann Sebastian Bach

Chorale

Bach's Cantatas

Cantata 140, Wachet auf, ruft uns die Stimme

Cello Suites

Fugue

Fugue in G minor, "Little" BWV 578

Brandenburg Concertos

George Frideric Handel

Messiah

Water Music

Tips for the Listening Exam

Additional Resources


----------



## Ingélou

:tiphat: Thanks for your post, Syd,with its useful link

Mind you, I'm a bit puzzled at your suggestion that this thread could ever be 'intimidating', when it's crammed with posts of people who love baroque music and want to share their experience of it, and when it's started by someone who has always admitted that she *doesn't know much* about baroque music , having begun so late, but that she wants to learn more.

Why, it even contains more than a few chatty posts from your good self, with jokes about pedal harpsichords and the like! :lol:

_Are you, maybe, up to a teensy bit of mischief in advance of Halloween?_ :devil:

*Whatever*, here's a lovely bit of Purcell, the composer I'll be moving on to shortly in my 'amateur non-intimidating listening project' - see OP - and the second piece on the video should be familiar to anyone who knows Benjamin Britten's Young Person's Guide to the Orchestra.

He obviously didn't think that it would be intimidating!


----------



## Ingélou

Several of the Purcell tunes that I love actually appear in Playford's English Dancing Master - because the notion of copyright and music was a little different then - see this link.
https://www.escholar.manchester.ac.uk/jrul/item/?pid=uk-ac-man-scw:103607

I thought the Playford dance tune The Indian Queen was one of Purcell's, as it has the same name as his opera, but I can't find any evidence on the internet. However, it's a lovely baroque tune in its own right, so I post it here.


----------



## Guest

Ingélou said:


> And just to reflect on my OP - there are comparatively few TC members who've posted on this thread, but *the quality is high*.





Ingélou said:


> Thanks for your post, Syd,with its useful link - but I'm a bit *puzzled* , at your suggestion that this thread could ever be 'intimidating'.
> 
> How *can* it be, when it's filled with posts of people who *love* baroque music and want to share it, and started by someone who has always admitted that she *doesn't know much* about baroque music , having begun so late, but wants to learn more?
> 
> _Are you, maybe, up to a bit of mischief in advance of Halloween?_ :devil:


At any one point of the day the amount of "guests" visiting the forum tends to outnumber the members by ten and sometimes twenty times that number.

This thread runs for 48 and counting pages.

There are a dozen or so members who post on a regular basis and the tone and tenor of our responses suggests that we're all friends who've known one another for quite some time.

Most people who visit the forum and the thread for the first time will most likely head straight for the latest replies and thus may not be able to place what we've been discussing in context.

I made a genuinely sincere attempt to reach out to the "guests" who may be visiting and contemplating joining the forum but who may hesitate because it can be intimidating to join in with some of the forum's most accomplished and erudite members (of which I do not number myself) to discuss a subject that can be arcane at best and esoteric at worst.


----------



## Dorsetmike

Some Purcell to look at/listen to/download on the Baroque Music Library

http://www.baroquemusic.org/bmlcatalogue.html

Scroll down to BMC9, BMC10, BMC39, BMC40, (left click highlighted track numbers or titles to listen or right click to download)

some additional background text linked at the bottom of the BMC9 & 10 pages


----------



## Ingélou

Sydney Nova Scotia said:


> At any one point of the day the amount of "guests" visiting the forum tends to outnumber the members by ten and sometimes twenty times that number.
> 
> This thread runs for 48 and counting pages.
> 
> There are a dozen or so members who post on a regular basis and the tone and tenor of our responses suggests that we're all friends who've known one another for quite some time.
> 
> Most people who visit the forum and the thread for the first time will most likely head straight for the latest replies and thus may not be able to place what we've been discussing in context.
> 
> I made a genuinely sincere attempt to reach out to the "guests" who may be visiting and contemplating joining the forum but who may hesitate because it can be intimidating to join in with some of the forum's most accomplished and erudite members (of which I do not number myself) to discuss a subject that can be arcane at best and esoteric at worst.


Sorry, but I don't accept that baroque music is an arcane or esoteric subject. I think that baroque music is having a resurgence and there are potentially lots of people who'd be interested in sharing their experience. You only have to look at YouTube, or at Current Listening on this forum, to see that baroque music is pretty mainstream as far as the world of classical music is concerned.

I also don't agree that guests would be put off posting on this thread, whatever they might feel about other areas of Talk Classical.

I think there's a friendly and approachable atmosphere here, to which you yourself have contributed.

Anyone is welcome to post on this thread, whatever their level of knowledge, because the thread title says it all - it's about *love* of baroque music.


----------



## Taggart

Schutz studied under Gabrielli and here is a German example of polychoral instruments in the superb Abbey Church of Muri


----------



## Ingélou

Taggart said:


> Schutz studied under Gabrielli and here is a German example of polychoral instruments in the superb Abbey Church of Muri


Thank you, Taggart.


----------



## classical yorkist

Taggart said:


> Schutz studied under Gabrielli and here is a German example of polychoral instruments in the superb Abbey Church of Muri


What an absolutely brilliant little video and that Abbey church made my eyes stand out on stalks! Imagine those monolithic blocks of sound coming at you from multiple directions. So enveloping, sumptuous and not a little bit intimidating. It must be a genuinely physical and emotional experience being a listener or worshiper in those conditions. Simply mindblowing.


----------



## Biwa

Taggart said:


> Schutz studied under Gabrielli and here is a German example of polychoral instruments in the superb Abbey Church of Muri


For anyone with a 5.1 surround sound audio set up, the Audite label has released this magnificent recording on a multichannel SACD, which allows the listener to recreate the acoustics the four galleries of the Abbey Church of Muri. Highly recommended!


----------



## Ingélou

I've finished listening to *Giovanni Gabrieli* - a step back from the Wiki list to a composer who sits on the cusp of Renaissance & Baroque music, following up a recommendation by classical yorkist.

My verdict?
I think he's an absolutely glorious composer, and I find it so interesting to be a witness as the tide turns from the Renaissance to the Baroque style of music.

When Sidney Smith defined ( a friend's idea of) heaven as 'pâté de foie gras to the sound of trumpets', he may have had Gabrieli in mind!

I love the choral arrangements, and the brass instrumental music is even more up my street.

Here's the Composer Guestbook that Spouse put up:
Giovanni Gabrieli (1557 - 1612)

And here's what I listened to, with my personal response at the time.










* Music for San Rocco, by the Gabrieli Consort.
We have this cd, in our baroque box, and we both thought it was lovely.

And from YouTube, I listened to these videos:

* A short documentary first posted by DorsetMike - 




There was only a little, really, about Gabrieli, in among the stuff about brass players and sound recording - but it was a fun watch.

* Gabrieli's Canzonas and Sonatas, posted first (again) by DorsetMike, who is, if he doesn't mind my saying it, a great addition to the membership on TC. 




This was luminous in its beauty.

* And some choral pieces recommended by classical yorkist, who, as ever, has been so helpful to me in my quest to learn more about baroque music.

1. Suscipe, by the choir of King's College, Cambridge.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP8z...nVzWIxZ_aXhdWo
What can I say? It's gorgeous.

2. Magnificat a 33 v- GIOVANNI GABRIELI ~Venetian Polychoral Style Influence in Latin-America Baroque
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...ahZ2nkObbOuRyY
Magnificent Magnificat!

3. "Magnificat a 14", Giovanni Gabrieli | The Green Mountain Project 2012
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45ud...h_ZSZtVaykgrsI
A heavenly sound.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I shall not forget Gabrieli, and I'll listen to him again.

Now on to my next stage on my Wiki Listening Project - *Henry Purcell*.

As always, I'm very grateful for any recommendations or observations. 
My thanks to everyone who's posted on this thread. :tiphat:


----------



## premont

Recent and very recommendable acquisition:

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8024541--gabrieli-g-canzoni

Much of it can be heard here:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tamminga+liuwe+gabrieli

As well as everything Tamminga has recorded is worthwhile.


----------



## Dorsetmike

I've just found free download of all 14 of the John Stanley sonatas opus 1 & 4, looks like most will require some rearrangement as they are for various instruments,instead of flute and harpsichord, they vary from flute to Horn, bassoon, clarinet, trumpet etc with 
guitar, harp and piano, others which I did not choose to download included flute with bassoon and many other combinations. 

To start with I have to convert from PDF to MIDI for the notation software. This should be easier than a previous attempt working with the PDFs from IMSLP which had the harpsichord part in figured bass which I found to be a PITA never having worked with it.

Once all that is done I then have to find a Harpsichord player and a Flute player to perform it, any offers considered!


----------



## Dorsetmike

Update on the above, files now converted from PDF to MIDI, so tomorrow might get some into the notation software and rearranged.


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## Ingélou

Dorsetmike said:


> Update on the above, files now converted from PDF to MIDI, so tomorrow might get some into the notation software and rearranged.


Good luck with that! :tiphat:


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## Ingélou

I'm getting a bit bogged down listening to Purcell as part of my OP Wiki-List project. There's a lot on YouTube and we have a few cds of his to check out too. Plus, I'm suffering with a horrid cold at present.

Here's a light bite to keep my strength up. I love Ernst Stolz's videos on YouTube - have even used some of them to play along with when I was taking lessons in baroque violin from Fiddle Guru.

Fantasia no. 3 by Purcell -


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## Biwa

Bogged down with too much Purcell to listen to?   Oh dear, what a terrible dilemma. :lol: Just kidding! On a more sincere note, I do hope you recover from your cold soon. Please take care! 

I love the music & video clip, by the way.


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## Ingélou

Biwa said:


> Bogged down with too much Purcell to listen to?  *Oh dear, what a terrible dilemma*. :lol: Just kidding! On a more sincere note, I do hope you recover from your cold soon. Please take care!
> 
> I love the music & video clip, by the way.


That made me laugh - I'm really a very lucky person to have a musical retirement, and a fab forum where I can discuss all manner of musicalia. :cheers:

I really wish that Purcell had lived twice as long as he did, and given me even more hassle. 

https://www.classicfm.com/composers/purcell/guides/purcell-facts/purcells-grave/


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## Ingélou

We just got a new car - had to, because the old one needed too many repairs - and it doesn't have a cd player , so Taggart has been spending hours in the computer room fixing up a 'memory stick' so we can listen in the car still. 

I'm able to report that we have these cds of Purcell music that I should be able to go on to soon, when my cold abates - 

Abdelazar
Dido & Aeneas
Dioclesian
Indian Queen
Viol Fantasias
Verse Anthems
Death of Queen Mary

We could have a splurge when we drive down to Somerset next month!


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## Ingélou

*Bruce Haynes - The End of Early Music: A Period Performer's History of Music
*
I have a sad premonition that I might not be able to cope with this book, but still, it does look interesting.










http://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780195189872.001.0001/acprof-9780195189872


----------



## LezLee

Ingélou said:


> We just got a new car - had to, because the old one needed too many repairs - and it doesn't have a cd player , so Taggart has been spending hours in the computer room fixing up a 'memory stick' so we can listen in the car still.
> 
> I'm able to report that we have these cds of Purcell music that I should be able to go on to soon, when my cold abates -
> 
> Abdelazar
> Dido & Aeneas
> Dioclesian
> Indian Queen
> Viol Fantasias
> Verse Anthems
> Death of Queen Mary
> 
> We could have a splurge when we drive down to Somerset next month!


Do you know the Tavern Songs? A bit of light relief, some of them are slightly rude :lol:


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## Ingélou

LezLee said:


> Do you know the Tavern Songs? A bit of light relief, some of them are slightly rude :lol:


Thank you - yes, I do, but I appreciate your mentioning them. :tiphat:

To be honest, they are not my cup of tea, but what does that matter, so long as others enjoy them.

We once bought a cd of them that was in a sale in a record shop we were browsing round, but I rehomed it fairly speedily to a charity shop. 
It's not the rudeness that gets me - it's that arch knowing tone that the singers adopt.


----------



## Biwa

The other day I picked up yet another recording of Biber's Rosary sonatas. This one is performed by Hélène Schmitt. She plays them much slower than normal. I'm thoroughly enjoying her stately interpretation.









Here she is performing Purcell's Prelude:


----------



## Taggart

*Handel Radamisto Snape Nov 2 2018*

A simple and conventional staging with a pair of movable arches










which acted as arches, city walls, a prison and a temple. There was also a simple climbing wall








used for the mountain scene where Zenobia throws herself into the river. The small cast of 6 helped to move the arches around and chock them into place before appearing on stage to perform.

Although some of the singing was a little weak, the two main leads - William Towers (Radamisto) and Katie Bray (Zenobia) - were excellent. The Old Street Band did a fine job with well balanced instrumentation on a chamber orchestra scale. Their rich sound was a fine complement to the singing. It was nice to hear the brass, woodwind and harp as well as the strings. We both enjoyed the music and felt it showed both the charm and the power of Handel.

We broke for the interval in the middle of the second act. It might have been better to have waited and left the third act to stand alone as it was jam packed with action and also with powerful and important arias. At one point we had an attempted rape followed by two frustrated murders all crammed into a few bars. The ending when Tiridate, rounded upon by everybody for his appalling behaviour, repents meekly of his crimes could seem a little contrived but the cast carried it off.

There seemed to be a shortage of themes for the arias. There was death before dishonour, death in the absence of the true love, the death of the true love. I suppose that it was fitting for All Souls but...

Still the singing was good, the music excellent and the playing superb. A fine evening from English Touring Opera.


----------



## Ingélou

It is my good fortune that my fiddle teacher is a violist with the Old Street Band.

Just to add my own response to last night's very enjoyable performance -

During Act I, I was thinking to myself, 'Well, this is *okay*, but the songs are largely attitudinising and not worth making such an effort driving 35 miles through the dark and cold to go and see, except for the lovely orchestral music'.

But when we came back after the interval, Act 3 proved to be full of really lovely dramatic arias, expressively sung* - too rich for their own good, really, because it was hard to concentrate as one vocal gem succeeded another, and the brief turnabout ending where Tiridate reforms seemed bathetic in contrast.

And in Act Three, incredibly, the Old Street Band were even better - producing a glorious, very *together* sound, and adding their own infusion of spirit to Handel's spirited beauty.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

* William Towers has one of the most beautiful counter-tenor voices that I have ever heard.


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## Ingélou

*Pandolfi*

Pandolfi's Complete Violin Sonatas - Andrew Manze violin & Richard Egarr harpsichord. 
I listened to this in the car today, and thought I'd tie it in to my listening project*, as Pandolfi is thought to have died in 1670, which is about where I am:










Here's the guestbook that Taggart started in 2013 after I asked him to. 
Giovanni Antonio Pandolfi Mealli

Fiddle Guru had posted lots of YouTube videos of baroque composers on to my Facebook page in an effort to scatter some of my ignorance. Tag & I both loved the video and bought the cd soon afterwards.

Fiddle Guru likes any baroque music that he finds to be 'experimental', and that is certainly one of the reasons why I like Pandolfi's music too. It is strange - maybe even _strangely attractive_ like the Penguin of Death. 

*Sumptuous *and *strange* - *intense*, and yet *oblique* - *beautiful*, and *mysterious* - *fierce*, and *strange*.

It's like somebody thinking - feeling - reacting to life - despairing - hoping - but doing it all aloud and through music.

I still love Pandolfi's music. I wish we knew more about him and the circumstances of its composition. Maybe we will one day.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

* (I'm just finishing off my stay at the *Purcell Hill Station* and will be writing up my holiday report soon.)


----------



## premont

Ingélou said:


> *Bruce Haynes - The End of Early Music: A Period Performer's History of Music
> *
> I have a sad premonition that I might not be able to cope with this book, but still, it does look interesting.


What do you mean, "cope with"? It is not difficult to understand the book, and even if Haynes' arguments sometimes are a bit provocative, one is left with the feeling, that he is right. Actually this is one of those books I reread from time to time.


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## Ingélou

premont said:


> What do you mean, "cope with"? It is not difficult to understand the book, and even if Haynes' arguments sometimes are a bit provocative, one is left with the feeling, that he is right. Actually this is one of those books I reread from time to time.


What I meant is that if there is anything technical about music in it, my brain would probably shut down, as I'm not very good on concentrating on technical details and know little about music theory.

I'm glad to hear it's fairly readable. I was noting it down for future reference and hope one day I'll be able to have a go at it.

Thanks, premont. :tiphat:


----------



## Taggart

Ingélou said:


> I still love Pandolfi's music. I wish we knew more about him and the circumstances of its composition. Maybe we will one day.


Pandolfi's sonatas have been known to scholars at least since 1901, the year Luigi Torchi published his seminal survey of 16th-, 17th-, and 18th-century Italian music. However, he didn't think much of them - a reaction to their _Stylus Phantasticus_ and they languished until the 1980s.

Kircher, the Jesuit polymath, had praised, in 1650 the _stylus phantasticus_: "The fantastic style is especially suited to instruments. It is the most free and unrestrained method of composition. Being bound neither to any words nor to a melodic subject, it was instituted to display genius and to teach the hidden design of harmony . . . and may be found among those genres commonly called Fantasias, Ricercars, Toccatas, and Sonatas." Pandolfi's sonatas a decade later are, in their widely-ranging inventiveness and spectacular pyrotechnics, prime examples of the _stylus phantasticus_, and have lost none of their freshness.

When looking at Pandolfi again I found that there was another Giovanni Antonio Pandolfi (without the Meali) who had published a set of violin sonatas in 1669 in Messina. There's an excellent thesis here https://etd.ohiolink.edu/rws_etd/document/get/case1310142681/inline which in its discussion of the two composers gives an interesting account of Pandolfi Meali's compositions and of _stylus phantasticus_.


----------



## ldiat

side note: when living in CA. KUSC did not broad cast Sunday Baroque W/ Sue Bono. WQED in pittsburgh did. really like the show. now in las vegas, KCNV does carry it....YEA! LIKE! and web: Sunday Baroque.org


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## Dorsetmike

Follie all'Italiana, Sonatas, Chacconnes, Passacaglia etc


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## Dorsetmike

Next Purcell Harpsichord works.


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## Mandryka

That's Gilbert's second recording on the 1671 Couchet modified by Taskin, it's still in print so it's surprising that he has let it stay on youtube. The first recording was made in 1978 using the Vaudry at The V and A. The one there is more fluid than the one on the Vaudry, for better or for worse.

Someone should put the Vaudry one on youtube -- it's a shame it's unavailable. It was never on CD but it appeared as a download on a Canadian label very briefly.


----------



## tdc

I get in moods for Couperin's _Concerts Royaux_ sometimes and it scratches an itch for me. I find this recording calming, beautiful and serene, yet with a certain intensity enhanced by the scintillating musicianship of Savall and Co.


----------



## ldiat




----------



## Ingélou

*Henry Purcell:*

Here's the Guestbook - 
Henry Purcell

*I love Purcell *- but as ever, my project says more about me as a listener than it does about the composer's music. I have limited concentration and I like a good tune with a thumping rhythm where possible.

I listened on YouTube (for convenience) to items that we have on cd.

It does seem as if the musical triumph of Purcell's career are his Fantasias for Viol.




Concentus Musicus Wien* <orchestra>, & Nikolaus Harnoncourt - Album Big Harnoncourt Box

My notes - My favourite is (typically) the lively number 3. 
My verdict is 'Cleverly interwoven themes - pleasantly melancholy' - some of it sounding a little discordant to my uneducated ear, but no doubt it's because they're 
*'a world unto themselves, packed with surprises and sharp contrasts, a wild garden of delights that could only have emerged in that moment just before common practice harmony was codified' *as :tiphat: Edward Bast so lucidly explains in the Guestbook. Henry Purcell

And see :tiphat: Violadude's post #8. - 
*I've been listening to Purcell's Fantasias for 3 and 4 viols lately. These are really fantastic pieces. They're short but packed with plenty of great stuff. 
Early Baroque music of this type is very interesting to listen to listen to because the harmonic system used by Mozart and Beethoven hadn't been fully codified or standardized yet so there are plenty of harmonic oddities in these pieces, stuff that makes you raise your eyebrows a bit. For example, listen to the creeping harmonies that make up the first section of #5 (starting at 12:11). 
Each one has a unique structure and form, so each listen is a surprise in terms of where you it's going. 
There is a great mix of old style polyphony, the way choral music was often written in that time period, and the new style melody and chords type composition.
Also, I just love the sound of viols.*

I also listened to - 
Ten Sonatas in Four Parts by London Baroque - 




Graceful, though not very exciting.

Music from Abdelazar - Christopher Hogwood & the Academy of Ancient Music




Gorgeous!

The Indian Queen - Christopher Hogwood & the Academy of Ancient Music - 




I loved every moment of this. Excellent & expressive playing & singing. Great trumpet tunes too.

The Prophetess, or the History of Dioclesian - John Eliot Gardiner & the Monteverdi Choir/Orchestra - 




Lovely playing and singing - actually, I think this is one that we don't have on cd. Must get it! 

Anthems & Hymns - Gustav Leonhardt -




Loved the organ pieces - found some of the anthems a bit rambling, but the voices were good. Generally I enjoyed this.

Dido & Aeneas - BBC film of Purcell's great opera. Maria Ewing as Dido (note on video)




I've lined this up to watch - have heard Dido & Aeneas many times, and seen it live twice. I love it.


----------



## Ingélou

Running Index:

My listening project so far - see OP & Wiki list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Baroque_composers

1. Jacopo Peri #7
2. Giulio Cacchini #24
3. Francesca Cacchini #25 #29 #41
4. Sweelinck #44 #48 #55 #59 #103
5. Monteverdi #134 #146 #176 #176 #181 #248 #271
6. Allegri #249 #252 #257
7. Frescobaldi #35 #300 #302 #326
8. Schutz #327 #329 #330 #343
9. Scheidt #363
10. Cavalli #366
11. William Lawes #279 #374 #385 #386 #388 #390
12. Henry Lawes #393 #399 #400 #401 #402
13. John Jenkins #403
14. John Ward #408
15. Bertali #406 #410 #416 #417
16. Carissimi #422 #425 #426 #428 #431 #432 #434 
17. Froberger #435 #438 #439 #447 #448
18. Strozzi #457 #459 #463 #466
19. Schmelzer #467 #468 #469 470
20. D'Anglebert #472
21. Lully #473 #592
22. Kerll #477
23. Uccellini #474
24. Charpentier #486 #488 #489
25 Jacquet de la Guerre #490 #491 #493
26. Buxtehude #494 #507 #508 #511 #514 #564
27. Biber #512 #523 #524 #525
28. Pachelbel #541 #575 #588 #597
29. Corelli #600 #604 #609 #635
30. Georg Muffat #184 #189 #225 #660
31. Rebel #661
32. Marin Marais #683
33 Antoine Forqueray #709
34. Giovanni Gabrieli #728
35 Pandolfi Mealli #743
36 Henry Purcell #753

Next up - 37 Alessandro Scarlatti.
Looking forward to it!


----------



## ldiat

Ingélou said:


> Running Index:
> 
> My listening project so far - see OP & Wiki list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Baroque_composers
> 
> 1. Jacopo Peri #7
> 2. Giulio Cacchini #24
> 3. Francesca Cacchini #25 #29 #41
> 4. Sweelinck #44 #48 #55 #59 #103
> 5. Monteverdi #134 #146 #176 #176 #181 #248 #271
> 6. Allegri #249 #252 #257
> 7. Frescobaldi #35 #300 #302 #326
> 8. Schutz #327 #329 #330 #343
> 9. Scheidt #363
> 10. Cavalli #366
> 11. William Lawes #279 #374 #385 #386 #388 #390
> 12. Henry Lawes #393 #399 #400 #401 #402
> 13. John Jenkins #403
> 14. John Ward #408
> 15. Bertali #406 #410 #416 #417
> 16. Carissimi #422 #425 #426 #428 #431 #432 #434
> 17. Froberger #435 #438 #439 #447 #448
> 18. Strozzi #457 #459 #463 #466
> 19. Schmelzer #467 #468 #469 470
> 20. D'Anglebert #472
> 21. Lully #473 #592
> 22. Kerll #477
> 23. Uccellini #474
> 24. Charpentier #486 #488 #489
> 25 Jacquet de la Guerre #490 #491 #493
> 26. Buxtehude #494 #507 #508 #511 #514 #564
> 27. Biber #512 #523 #524 #525
> 28. Pachelbel #541 #575 #588 #597
> 29. Corelli #600 #604 #609 #635
> 30. Georg Muffat #184 #189 #225 #660
> 31. Rebel #661
> 32. Marin Marais #683
> 33 Antoine Forqueray #709
> 34. Giovanni Gabrieli #728
> 35 Pandolfi Mealli #743
> 36 Henry Purcell #753
> 
> Next up - 37 Alessandro Scarlatti.
> Looking forward to it!


i have that same wiki page saved also! cool!


----------



## ldiat




----------



## Dirge

Tarquinio MERULA: Canzonetta Spirituale sopra alla nanna, "Hor ch'è tempo di dormire" (p. 1638)

:: Maria Cristina Kiehr, Christina Pluhar, Gebhard David [Ricercar '98] ~ 8½ minutes





:: Sara Mingardo, Rinaldo Alessandrini/Concerto Italiano [Naïve '04] ~ 8½ minutes





This gently relentless and uncomfortably numb lullaby/canzonetta has its melodic line floating pensively above a hypnotic ostinato bass consisting of only two chords. The text/poem has the Virgin Mary lulling/rocking the baby Jesus to sleep while she reveals and laments the suffering, the Passion, that is to come-she has foreknowledge of the events as if she were "remembering" them in a waking dream … it's a _wee_ bit creepy. About a minute and a half from the end, Mary snaps out of it, as it were, and concludes with a sense of sad acceptance and quiet repose, consoling herself with the ultimate knowledge that "with smiling faces we shall meet in paradise." The song is as quietly affecting and mesmerizing as it is disturbing and haunting. (British folkies might have fleeting thoughts of Richard Thompson's "The End of the Rainbow" while reading the text and listening.)

The work has attracted many of the top early music/Baroque singers, and there are a good many recordings available, but those listed above are my favorites-the Kiehr being my overall favorite, the Mingardo being my favorite alternative. Kiehr has a beautifully well-rounded soprano voice and gives a state-of-the-art early Baroque/HIP performance that perfectly serves her finely drawn and eerily convincing portrayal of Mary. Kiehr's instrumental accomplices play beautifully and generate just the right mood and atmosphere, and the well-produced recording does justice to the performance as a whole. Mingardo has an unmitigated contralto voice with a dusky, somewhat countertenor_ish_ character, and she gives a plaintively dramatic Italianate performance that's a degree or two more operatic than what you get from Kiehr; it's an unusual but fascinating portrayal that commands your attention throughout. Concerto Italiano provides a discreet accompaniment that is as much about not distracting from Mingardo's singing as it is about contributing to the performance.


----------



## Ingélou

Posted for Remembrance Day & the Centenary of the 1918 Armistice:

Remembering all who have suffered and died in war, and praying/ hoping for peace on earth.

*Baroque Music for War and Peace in Europe during XVII Century Jordi Savall*


----------



## Dorsetmike

I found the site linked below, it has Lute music written as tablature, .pdf and .eps formats and MIDI format. The MIDI format will play on Windows Media player, or load into some notation software (I use Finalé) the notation software will convert to conventional notes on staves. There are other links on the page "the lute page" link among other things has quite a bit of information and has further links to lutes and Theorbos for sale. I will also post this on the Strings forum

https://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~d14708a/tab-serv/tab-serv.cgi


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## Ingélou

Where Folk Meets Baroque

We have some much-loved Les Witches cds of early music and playford, and I've just discovered some new stuff of theirs on YouTube.

The first video features Scottish traditional music from the baroque era and as usual with this music it has elements of baroque art music. 
There's also some Carolan - a composer who stands on the borderline of baroque and Irish traditional music.

I think, too, that Les Witches give the performance a modern 'groovy' feel, mainly from the rhythm.

But I love it, as I love everything that the group does.

Two extracts from the Les Witches cd *Everybody's Tune: Music from the British Isles & Flanders, 17th Century*.

Lord Gallaway's Delight by Les Witches (with the Irish harpist Siobhán Amstrong).






Another excerpt from the same cd, (I _think_) this video called on YouTube - Jennys Whim, Role The Rumple Sawny.


----------



## Ingélou

I just love Gloria Banditelli's *rich midnight-blue voice*.

Here singing Ognor colmi d'estrema dolcezza from Vivaldi's Gloria e Imeneo.


----------



## Dorsetmike

Further to the 2 works by Zelenka posted in the baroque on youtube thread, I've been checking Archive.org and there are some of his works there, I'm currently downloading 1 mass, 1 oratoriohttps://www.talkclassical.com/search.php?do=getnew&contenttype=vBForum_Post masses, some trio sonatas for oboe, bassoon and violin plus BC; the mass is video, 934 Mb so takes a few minutes, when that one's done there's another. You can listen or if video watch, if you scroll down a bit from the listen/wacth part of the screen there is a box on right with 4 download options, I usually use the MP4 or MP3 format right click the format and select "save as" There is also search a search box at top of screen, enter name of composer, artist, text or other content; refine search on left of screden to select, "Audio" "Video" "text" etc.

http://https://archive.org/search.php?query=jan%20dismas%20zelenka


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## Marinera

Serenata Hungarica is my favourite album from Accentus Austria. The others are very good, but this one is the best in my opinion. 
The music throughout is lively with very exciting mixed baroque and traditional music influences. The first half of the disk is mostly baroque with unusual flavour the way Biber's music is, the second half is more rustic and traditional. Near the middle of the album emerges the first sung traditional piece Dade Zingaricum, translates as a Gypsy Song, which is one fun piece, the meaning of the words in the song isn't known anymore. It's mixture of Hungarian, Rumanian and Romany languages, and people might of learned and performed them simply by ear as phonetic sounds without knowing the meaning of the words, but you could've fooled me, that singer sounds definitely as if he knows what he's singing about. It is followed by an exceptional Fux Turcaria. There are two other traditional songs one is Pongeset Koboznak ( the sound of koboz). Koboz is a string music instrument from lute family. It was popular in the regions of Hungary and Romania. This is perhaps a soldier's song, because it says how sad the sound of koboz is and that koboz belongs in the soldier's hands. The last song is an example of how quickly politics become obsolete, this delightfully sounding no longer relevant song titled O,mely csudalatos ( oh wondrous God),has less to do with God and the matters of the soul and more with the praising the ruler of that land. However, one has to enjoy how politic its lyrics are. The first stanza praises God, the second praises their ruler and by the end of it blithely throws in ancient Roman deities of Mars and Bellona as a metaphorical devise, one can only hope, and asks them to grant him good fortune.. and with capital 'You' as in Deities.. And after that the third stanza asks God to bless the afore mentioned ruler. Hm, not very discriminating support raising, but better be safe than sorry I guess.
The last piece is the longest on the disc and it consists of 9 Hungarian dances. Very traditional, but it sounds like a wild baroque party to me somehow.

Overall fantastic album that maps musical landscape of Austro Hungarian empire during baroque period and I love how unusual, rustic sounding and plain entertaining it is. The sound is very good, and invited singers are all native from the regions songs originate.


----------



## Marinera

Biwa said:


> Have you decided on your baroque selection yet?
> 
> This thread has got me on a bit of viola da gamba kick. Now listening to another gorgeous recording courtesy of Marianne Muller & Ensemble Spirale:
> 
> Tombeau pour Mr. de Ste. Colombe & autres portraits...
> 
> View attachment 109105
> 
> 
> View attachment 109106


Oh. I just noticed this post, sorry. I haven't bought Fourqueray yet. The priority for me are the suites played with viola. I like Forqueray played on harpsichord, but I plan to get it after viols. So far my preference is for Paolo Pandolfo disc. I like Atsushi Sakai but it will be the second option for me. Pandolpho's instrumental accompaniment sounds more sparse and with emphasis on string instruments, harpsichord is more understated then on Sakai cd. I like the overall sound that is more mellow and sort of rounded much more intimate. The two Forqueray volumes on Harmonia Mundi I might like in small doses, but they are quite a bit noisier sounding then the other two. I decided against buying them when they only appeared, although the price was very tempting. I listened to them again and I still stand by my fist two choices. For harpsichord Leonhardt of course and Justin Taylor on alpha record, although I haven't listened properly to Rannou.


----------



## classical yorkist

In honour of St Cecilia I will post this beautiful work by Charpentier. We've all no doubt heard Purcell and Handel but having heard this recently it seemed something of a neglected gem.


----------



## Mandryka

'Tis the year's midnight, and it is the day's, 
Lucy's, who scarce seven hours herself unmasks; 
The sun is spent, and now his flasks 
Send forth light squibs, no constant rays; 
The world's whole sap is sunk; 
The general balm th' hydroptic earth hath drunk, 
Whither, as to the bed's feet, life is shrunk, 
Dead and interr'd; yet all these seem to laugh, 
Compar'd with me, who am their epitaph. 

Study me then, you who shall lovers be 
At the next world, that is, at the next spring; 
For I am every dead thing, 
In whom Love wrought new alchemy. 
For his art did express 
A quintessence even from nothingness, 
From dull privations, and lean emptiness; 
He ruin'd me, and I am re-begot 
Of absence, darkness, death: things which are not. 

All others, from all things, draw all that's good, 
Life, soul, form, spirit, whence they being have; 
I, by Love's limbec, am the grave 
Of all that's nothing. Oft a flood 
Have we two wept, and so 
Drown'd the whole world, us two; oft did we grow 
To be two chaoses, when we did show 
Care to aught else; and often absences 
Withdrew our souls, and made us carcasses. 

But I am by her death (which word wrongs her) 
Of the first nothing the elixir grown; 
Were I a man, that I were one 
I needs must know; I should prefer, 
If I were any beast, 
Some ends, some means; yea plants, yea stones detest, 
And love; all, all some properties invest; 
If I an ordinary nothing were, 
As shadow, a light and body must be here. 

But I am none; nor will my sun renew. 
You lovers, for whose sake the lesser sun 
At this time to the Goat is run 
To fetch new lust, and give it you, 
Enjoy your summer all; 
Since she enjoys her long night's festival, 
Let me prepare towards her, and let me call 
This hour her vigil, and her eve, since this 
Both the year's, and the day's deep midnight is.


----------



## Ingélou

Mandryka said:


> 'Tis the year's midnight, and it is the day's,
> Lucy's, who scarce seven hours herself unmasks;
> The sun is spent, and now his flasks
> Send forth light squibs, no constant rays;
> The world's whole sap is sunk;
> The general balm th' hydroptic earth hath drunk,
> Whither, as to the bed's feet, life is shrunk,
> Dead and interr'd; yet all these seem to laugh,
> Compar'd with me, who am their epitaph.
> 
> Study me then, you who shall lovers be
> At the next world, that is, at the next spring;
> For I am every dead thing,
> In whom Love wrought new alchemy.
> For his art did express
> A quintessence even from nothingness,
> From dull privations, and lean emptiness;
> He ruin'd me, and I am re-begot
> Of absence, darkness, death: things which are not.
> 
> All others, from all things, draw all that's good,
> Life, soul, form, spirit, whence they being have;
> I, by Love's limbec, am the grave
> Of all that's nothing. Oft a flood
> Have we two wept, and so
> Drown'd the whole world, us two; oft did we grow
> To be two chaoses, when we did show
> Care to aught else; and often absences
> Withdrew our souls, and made us carcasses.
> 
> But I am by her death (which word wrongs her)
> Of the first nothing the elixir grown;
> Were I a man, that I were one
> I needs must know; I should prefer,
> If I were any beast,
> Some ends, some means; yea plants, yea stones detest,
> And love; all, all some properties invest;
> If I an ordinary nothing were,
> As shadow, a light and body must be here.
> 
> But I am none; nor will my sun renew.
> You lovers, for whose sake the lesser sun
> At this time to the Goat is run
> To fetch new lust, and give it you,
> Enjoy your summer all;
> Since she enjoys her long night's festival,
> Let me prepare towards her, and let me call
> This hour her vigil, and her eve, since this
> Both the year's, and the day's deep midnight is.


I love this Donne poem, & it always went down well with my A-level students too, but you're a little early. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Lucy's_Day


----------



## Ingélou

Marinera said:


> View attachment 110050
> 
> 
> Serenata Hungarica is my favourite album from Accentus Austria. The others are very good, but this one is the best in my opinion.
> The music throughout is lively with very exciting mixed baroque and traditional music influences. The first half of the disk is mostly baroque with unusual flavour the way Biber's music is, the second half is more rustic and traditional. Near the middle of the album emerges the first sung traditional piece Dade Zingaricum, translates as a Gypsy Song, which is one fun piece, the meaning of the words in the song isn't known anymore. It's mixture of Hungarian, Rumanian and Romany languages, and people might of learned and performed them simply by ear as phonetic sounds without knowing the meaning of the words, but you could've fooled me, that singer sounds definitely as if he knows what he's singing about. It is followed by an exceptional Fux Turcaria. There are two other traditional songs one is Pongeset Koboznak ( the sound of koboz). Koboz is a string music instrument from lute family. It was popular in the regions of Hungary and Romania. This is perhaps a soldier's song, because it says how sad the sound of koboz is and that koboz belongs in the soldier's hands. The last song is an example of how quickly politics become obsolete, this delightfully sounding no longer relevant song titled O,mely csudalatos ( oh wondrous God),has less to do with God and the matters of the soul and more with the praising the ruler of that land. However, one has to enjoy how politic its lyrics are. The first stanza praises God, the second praises their ruler and by the end of it blithely throws in ancient Roman deities of Mars and Bellona as a metaphorical devise, one can only hope, and asks them to grant him good fortune.. and with capital 'You' as in Deities.. And after that the third stanza asks God to bless the afore mentioned ruler. Hm, not very discriminating support raising, but better be safe than sorry I guess.
> The last piece is the longest on the disc and it consists of 9 Hungarian dances. Very traditional, but it sounds like a wild baroque party to me somehow.
> 
> Overall fantastic album that maps musical landscape of Austro Hungarian empire during baroque period and I love how unusual, rustic sounding and plain entertaining it is. The sound is very good, and invited singers are all native from the regions songs originate.


Wow, thanks, Marinera - interesting post, and I absolutely adored the video! :tiphat:


----------



## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> In honour of St Cecilia I will post this beautiful work by Charpentier. We've all no doubt heard Purcell and Handel but having heard this recently it seemed something of a neglected gem.


I haven't time to listen now but the opening bars sound gorgeous. I'm posting it on my Facebook page to listen to later.
Thank you, classical yorkist. :tiphat:
(I just wish I could be 'baroque yorkist', but we can't manage to sell our house in 'sad-slump Britain'. )


----------



## Taggart

In honour of St Cecilia's day - 22nd November - a nice bit of Handel


----------



## Jacck

Romanus Weichlein Encaenia Musices 1695
beautiful


----------



## Ingélou

Women in Baroque Music:

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Bio/Bertagnolli-Gemma.htm

I've just discovered *Gemma Bertagnoli* - I love her voice & am moved by her singing of Dido's aria 'When I am laid in earth' from Purcell's opera:


----------



## Ingélou

I'm just finishing another visit on my Baroque Journey (see OP) -
*Alessandro Scarlatti. *

Fab composer! 
It's been a great experience & I hope I'll visit again.

The composer guestbook is here:
Alessandro Scarlatti (1660 - 1725)

This is what I listened to with my reactions at the time:

His Concerti Grossi - 




*Beautiful - such life & spirit - lithe & blithe.
*
Cantate Scelte




*Lovely music - the first singer ('contralto') is ravishing. 
*
'Toccatas for Cembalo'




*Stupendous cascade! Has that 'experimenting with sounds/ thinking aloud' quality that makes it modern and relevant.*

Stabat Mater -




*It's nice music - but mostly a little too measured and elegant to move me. The singing becomes more heartfelt about half an hour in.
*
Telemaco - opera in 3 acts, 1718




*I appreciate the music & singing & there sounds to be a lot of comic moments in there too, at the start - the soprano's witterings (technical term) at the two hour mark become a bit tedious, in the absence of context (I have no Italian). But the opera is full of spirit and beautiful music - so here's hoping that I can one day see this or another of A. Scarlatti's operas staged.*

Next composer on the Wiki List - Francois Couperin.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Baroque_composers
But I think I'll stop by *Louis Couperin* first.


----------



## classical yorkist

You know I think I've listened to quite a bit Scarlatti and I know the family is very famous musically but I can't for the life of me remember feeling moved or affected by any of his music. I think I'll give a listen to a few of your links, see if anything changes.


----------



## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> You know I think I've listened to quite a bit Scarlatti and I know the family is very famous musically but I can't for the life of me remember feeling moved or affected by any of his music. I think I'll give a listen to a few of your links, see if anything changes.


Oh dear - you've got me scared now! 
I don't want you to waste your time. :lol:

I think some baroque music is 'elegant' rather than moving or heartfelt. I find it so, anyway. Some of the links, as I've indicated, were of that sort - but I do think the Concerti Grossi have a little more oomph.


----------



## classical yorkist

Ingélou said:


> Oh dear - you've got me scared now!
> I don't want you to waste your time. :lol:
> 
> I think some baroque music is 'elegant' rather than moving or heartfelt. I find it so, anyway. Some of the links, as I've indicated, were of that sort - but I do think the Concerti Grossi have a little more oomph.


I'm just listening to the Concerti Grossi and the slow movements are really quite heartbreakingly beautiful.


----------



## Jacck

Claude Balbastre - Pieces de Clavecin


----------



## Taggart

Disc 4 from the big Harnoncourt box

Lively and spirited but never rising above pleasant. Telemann is less well known and somewhat less popular than his contemporaries and listening to this one sees why. Pleasant incidental music rather than the stirring greatness of Bach, Handel or Vivaldi.


----------



## Dirge

Antonio VIVALDI: _Le quattro stagioni_, Op. 8, Nos. 1-4 (p. 1725)
:: Grumiaux, Gérecz/Les Solistes Romands [Philips '78]





Grumiaux et al don't ignore the programmic nature of these works and play the music in the abstract, but it's clear that formal fidelity and structural integrity are the priorities here-little surprise given Grumiaux's classical sensibilities. As such, this is as "straight" an account of _The Four Seasons_ as you'll likely encounter, with subtler expressive gestures and less conspicuous scene painting than you'll find in other accounts-expressive gestures and scene painting aren't necessarily less effective as a result, but they are less obvious and attention grabbing. Listeners who want the programmic elements to be vividly brought to life at any cost will be sorely disappointed-_why, the violas in the slow movement of "Spring" hardly sound like a barking dog at all!_-but the all-around refinement, sensitivity, and refreshing rigor of the playing brings other rewards, and this might be just the recording to bring jaded old-timers who are sick and tired of _The Four Seasons_ back to their stereos. The slow movements fare especially well, I think.

Gérecz/Les Solistes Romands plays stylishly throughout, with vigor and trenchancy here and hushed intensity there, matching Grumiaux all the while. Grumiaux is too forwardly placed and closely mic'd, but not to a bothersome extent (if only because he plays so damn well … it would certainly bother me if he sucked).


----------



## Ingélou

Jacck :tiphat: - you shared this video of Baroque Bohemian Christmas Songs on to my Christmas Music thread last year, and I'm just listening to it again now.
Hope you don't mind my reposting it - it's lovely! :angel:


----------



## Jacck

Ingélou said:


> Jacck :tiphat: - you shared this video of Baroque Bohemian Christmas Songs on to my Christmas Music thread last year, and I'm just listening to it again now.
> Hope you don't mind my reposting it - it's lovely! :angel:


glad you like it. It is one of the staples of the Czech Christmas. Both Adam Václav Michna Z Otradovic and Jakub Jan Ryba


----------



## classical yorkist

Taggart said:


> Disc 4 from the big Harnoncourt box
> 
> Lively and spirited but never rising above pleasant. Telemann is less well known and somewhat less popular than his contemporaries and listening to this one sees why. Pleasant incidental music rather than the stirring greatness of Bach, Handel or Vivaldi.


I really disagree with this view that is often expressed in music circles. Telemann is just as good as Vivaldi, Handel or Bach. His Tafelmusik is incidental sounding because it is incidental music! Try his solo fantasias for violin or the 6 violin sonatas (TWV41) or his groundbreaking use of traditional Polish folk music.


----------



## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> I really disagree with this view that is often expressed in music circles. Telemann is just as good as Vivaldi, Handel or Bach. His Tafelmusik is incidental sounding because it is incidental music! Try his solo fantasias for violin or the 6 violin sonatas (TWV41) or his groundbreaking use of traditional Polish folk music.


Thank you - perhaps we tried the wrong pieces of music, or maybe the wrong performance. I look forward to trying the violin sonatas.


----------



## Mandryka

classical yorkist said:


> Telemann is just as good as . . . Bach.


I don't agree with you about this.


----------



## Ras

*Telemann's Darmstadt Overtures with Helmut Muller-Bruhl (cond.) on Naxos*

I don't think anyone is as good as Bach. 
I would rate Telemann below Bach on par with Handel and Vivaldi and probably others.

This is my favorite Telemann cd :









The Florilegium Ensemble also made some good Telemann cds for Channel Classics.


----------



## classical yorkist

Mandryka said:


> I don't agree with you about this.


You're right of course, I was merely using an exaggeration to make my point.

Bach stands apart in the Baroque, or indeed any era.

However, Bach held Telemann in extremely high regard and the two were very close.


----------



## Dirge

«Baroque Guitar» works by Gaspar SANZ, J. S. BACH, Fernando SOR, Sylvius Leopold WEISS, and Robert de VISÉE
:: Julian Bream [RCA '65]





I don't listen to Baroque guitar very often, but when I do, I listen to «Baroque Guitar». Sanz's "Canarios" is the first classical guitar piece that I remember liking, via this recording, and it remains a happy favorite to this day. Otherwise, the highlight is probably the superb account of Bach's Fugue in G minor, BWV 1000 (played in A minor)-Bream's pointillistic nature/style is particularly well suited to counterpoint. The album is beautifully programmed and makes for a great listen straight through, and it also serves as a fine backdrop to fancy wine & cheese parties.


----------



## Mandryka

classical yorkist said:


> You're right of course, I was merely using an exaggeration to make my point.
> 
> Bach stands apart in the Baroque, or indeed any era.
> 
> However, Bach held Telemann in extremely high regard and the two were very close.


The problem I have with Telemann is that there's a hell of a lot of it and a lot of it doesn't interest me. I'd certainly appreciate a sort of essential recordings list -- not necessarily to show the breadth of his work, but to show the summits not of his craft, but of his art, his poetry.


----------



## Mandryka

Ingélou said:


> Thank you - perhaps we tried the wrong pieces of music, or maybe the wrong performance.


Try this

View attachment 110571


----------



## Ariasexta

Mandryka said:


> The problem I have with Telemann is that there's a hell of a lot of it and a lot of it doesn't interest me. I'd certainly appreciate a sort of essential recordings list -- not necessarily to show the breadth of his work, but to show the summits not of his craft, but of his art, his poetry.


You seemed to have problem with Buxtehude as well, correct me if I am wrong. Picking some personal favorite from the ocean of period pieces you are not serving anyone including yours own interests. A disc of miscellanous famous pieces would be enough for you for the rest of lifetime.


----------



## Ariasexta

OK, I was a bit impatient myself. If one feels impatience just do not pick on composers and their works. Adapt or just give up. 

Like JS Bach said, my employers do not appreciate music, they just employ me. It means, at the time, people appreciated music the most was probably the composers and musicians themself!! 

This disc below has 2 modern vocal pieces written for the ensemble, the melodies are sometimes irregular but the general effect is fine. It will be acceptable to write in such a restrained manner. It is still not a problem of categorization.


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## Jacck

Gottfried Heinrich Stölzel - Te Deum (c.1720)




sounds bachian....


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## Ariasexta

What I am afraid the most is someone claims to be a fan but picking on different works and composers, not too few people in the circle. Modern music is free to pick. 

Time for impatient(passionless) people to leave, I never expect more than 3 out of 100 would persist. It is OK to give up sometimes. Thanks for being honest in advance :tiphat:


----------



## Ariasexta

Ras said:


> I don't think anyone is as good as Bach.
> I would rate Telemann below Bach on par with Handel and Vivaldi and probably others.
> 
> This is my favorite Telemann cd :
> 
> View attachment 110567
> 
> 
> The Florilegium Ensemble also made some good Telemann cds for Channel Classics.


It makes me sad that people comment on Telemann like that, though I had anticipated such scenario for light listeners.

Bach`s concertos were far less frequently performed by his contemporaries than Telemann. Telemann`s vocal and instrumental works are definitely no less brilliant than Bach on any term. Bach`s huge fame mostly relies on his contribution to the keyboard repertoir, which weas under the limelight of classicism and praised throughout generations by prominent later composers like Mozart and Mendelsson. Do not rest on other peoples comments.


----------



## Ingélou

Jacck said:


> Gottfried Heinrich Stölzel - Te Deum (c.1720)
> ... sounds bachian....


Posts like yours make me glad I started this thread, Jacck :tiphat: - I am listening to the Te Deum you posted, and it's really lovely.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gottfried_Heinrich_Stölzel
I have to confess I'd never heard of this baroque composer. 
But Wiki says that Stölzel is 'prolific' so I am looking forward to hearing more of him, in due course.

Needless to say, he has no Composer Guestbook - I don't know if you'd consider starting one?

The Baroque Era is chock-full of talented composers & TC is a great place to learn about them - I love to hear the different opinions, and make my own mind up, of course - thought is free! 

It's great to be in touch with other people who *love the Baroque*. :kiss:


----------



## classical yorkist

I dearly wish that it was easier to navigate Telemann's cantatas and passions as a listener. His religious music is so disparate and uncollected, and unrecorded, and this coupled with the sheer volume of his works makes it very unapproachable.

ETA Apparently he wrote some 1034 cantatas including 3 complete yearly cycles.


----------



## classical yorkist

For those who are interested:


----------



## Ingélou

Thanks - I am very interested, though Telemann is seven ahead in my Wiki list listening project.

When it's time, I'll pop back here and try out any Telemann links suggested. :tiphat:

Here's a video of '6 Violin Sonatas' on YouTube:





When I was taking lessons in baroque music with my HIP specialist violin teacher a few years ago, I remember liking very much the pieces by Telemann in the two 'Baroque Violin' music books that I was learning from. 
However, I realised that I liked Baroque music far too much to want to listen to myself playing it. 

Fiddle Guru's Idol is J. S. Bach, but I know he holds Telemann in high regard.


----------



## classical yorkist

Ingélou said:


> Thanks - I am very interested, though Telemann is seven ahead in my Wiki list listening project.
> 
> Here's a video of '6 Violin Sonatas' on YouTube:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When I was taking lessons in baroque music with my HIP specialist violin teacher a few years ago, I remember liking very much the pieces by Telemann in the two 'Baroque Violin' music books that I was learning from.
> However, I realised that I liked Baroque music far too much to want to listen to myself playing it.
> 
> Fiddle Guru's Idol is J. S. Bach, but I know he holds Telemann in high regard.


I have that on CD, it's a superb piece of work.


----------



## Jacck

Ingélou said:


> Posts like yours make me glad I started this thread, Jacck :tiphat: - I am listening to the Te Deum you posted, and it's really lovely.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gottfried_Heinrich_Stölzel
> I have to confess I'd never heard of this baroque composer.
> But Wiki says that Stölzel is 'prolific' so I am looking forward to hearing more of him, in due course.
> 
> Needless to say, he has no Composer Guestbook - I don't know if you'd consider starting one?
> 
> The Baroque Era is chock-full of talented composers & TC is a great place to learn about them - I love to hear the different opinions, and make my own mind up, of course - thought is free!
> 
> It's great to be in touch with other people who *love the Baroque*. :kiss:


I am not sure if I know enough about the composer to start a guestbook.
Apparently, the composer has written a lot of cantatas




It is quite probably that Bach might have been inspired by him. Bach was pretty heavy on borrowing from other composers. His organ music sounds like it was borrowed from Johann Caspar Kerll, his cantatas from Stölzel and his concerti from Vivaldi. Bach absorbed all the influences that he could.


----------



## Ariasexta

For Telemanns cantatas, his circle of 72 cantatas under title *Harmonischer Gottesdienst *attracts much attention and has been recorded complete by at least 4-5 different labels. I have 3 cds in the serie from this label









Very good sound quality and vocal performance. Telemann`s cantatas are so far accessible in terms of stylistic appreciation, it is difficult for musicologists to render old masterials into authentic performance and it takes a lot of resources and time. Whatever is available on the market is mostly assured of quality and value. Maybe, there could be a few aberrant recordings in terms of sound quality and balance between voices.


----------



## premont

Ariasexta said:


> Telemann`s vocal and instrumental works are definitely no less brilliant than Bach on any term


Maybe not less brilliant, but less expressive - that's the difference.


----------



## premont

Jacck said:


> It is quite probably that Bach might have been inspired by him. Bach was pretty heavy on borrowing from other composers. His organ music sounds like it was borrowed from Johann Caspar Kerll, his cantatas from Stölzel and his concerti from Vivaldi.


I would like to see some examples of that "borrowing". I think Bach borrowed - and expanded - the form, but he did not borrow the content.


----------



## Dorsetmike

I think it's probably best to agree to differ: each person is entitled to their own opinion, I see no sense in intolerant arguing. By all means state your point of view, but don't force it on others. I personally don't like much classical written after 1800, but I do enjoy Jazz and swing up to ab0out 1970 ish, but those are my personal preferences.

I also prefer to find and listen to less well known composers, the radio rarely goes beyond their almost set playlists, you hear the same old, same old, ad infinitum.


----------



## Ariasexta

premont said:


> Maybe not less brilliant, but less expressive - that's the difference.


Expressive of what? By Telemanns time there was no much debate about the objective of music. Telemann being less expressive is quite ignorant of foundamentals. You can be more fit for modern music. I remember you as a hardcore fan of modernism.


----------



## Jacck

premont said:


> I would like to see some examples of that "borrowing". I think Bach borrowed - and expanded - the form, but he did not borrow the content.


He borrowed the form, the style and sometimes even content. For example - BWV 1065 Concerto for 4 Harpsichords - a transcription of Vivaldi for harpsichords. I do not want to diminish his achievement. I love Bach. But Bach himself admitted that his music stands on the shoulders of others.


----------



## Ariasexta

Dorsetmike said:


> I think it's probably best to agree to differ: each person is entitled to their own opinion, I see no sense in intolerant arguing. By all means state your point of view, but don't force it on others. I personally don't like much classical written after 1800, but I do enjoy Jazz and swing up to ab0out 1970 ish, but those are my personal preferences.
> 
> I also prefer to find and listen to less well known composers, the radio rarely goes beyond their almost set playlists, you hear the same old, same old, ad infinitum.


Though many old set programs are timeless, they worth repetitive interpretation and never get annoying. New found works are rare because of the lack of sponsorship, and publishing them is also costly. We have to wait a long time before a boom of audienceship. For example, L Couperin organ works had gone through 50 years from discovery to recording. Hard rock music is depressing for me, not uplifting, so I do not listen to hard rock even though some are cool. Probably once a year, Led Zep, however, at the same time more than 500 times to Froberger, 300 times to Bach, etc etc etc.

Listening profile as a modern amateur is quite hard to define, it is not true that I comppletely reject modern music, when modernists attack my classical music I would surely reject them as a category. However, Oscar Wilde tells us, an artist well understood must be a bad artist. In our amateur case, people who try to intellectualize every art piece must have a bad taste.


----------



## Ingélou

Dorsetmike said:


> *I think it's probably best to agree to differ: each person is entitled to their own opinion, I see no sense in intolerant arguing.* By all means state your point of view, but don't force it on others. I personally don't like much classical written after 1800, but I do enjoy Jazz and swing up to ab0out 1970 ish, but those are my personal preferences.
> 
> I also prefer to find and listen to less well known composers, the radio rarely goes beyond their almost set playlists, you hear the same old, same old, ad infinitum.


Mike - I so agree. 
I also don't think anyone has to prove their credentials as listeners - how knowledgeable, passionate, discerning etc they are.

Talk Classical is for people who love classical music whatever their level of knowledge or commitment, and this thread is for people who love baroque music, whatever their level of knowledge or commitment.

Differing opinions about the merits of particular composers are what make the thread interesting - but I always hope that it remains a welcoming friendly place for anyone who's just 'getting into' baroque music. :cheers:


----------



## Ingélou

I am looking around for things of Telemann to listen to 'in due course', but this one I'm listening to now, and it's gorgeous.
But then - I *am* violin-mad! 

Telemann's Concerto for 4 Violins, No. 2 in D major.


----------



## Ras

Ariasexta said:


> It makes me sad that people comment on Telemann like that, though I had anticipated such scenario for light listeners.
> 
> Bach`s concertos were far less frequently performed by his contemporaries than Telemann. Telemann`s vocal and instrumental works are definitely no less brilliant than Bach on any term. Bach`s huge fame mostly relies on his contribution to the keyboard repertoir, which weas under the limelight of classicism and praised throughout generations by prominent later composers like Mozart and Mendelsson. Do not rest on other peoples comments.


I am certainly a "light listener" - yes. 
And I have only "scratched the Telemann-surface" - but if Telemann has composed masterpieces that can stand side-by-side with Bach's B minor mass, his 3rd Orchestral Suite, the 5th Brandenburg Concerto etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. and many more etc.'s - then I just haven't had the pleasure to hear those Telemann masterpieces yet...


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## Mandryka

Jacck said:


> He borrowed the form, the style and sometimes even content. For example - BWV 1065 Concerto for 4 Harpsichords - a transcription of Vivaldi for harpsichords. I do not want to diminish his achievement. I love Bach. But Bach himself admitted that his music stands on the shoulders of others.


I wonder sometimes why he wrote those transcriptions.



Jacck said:


> But Bach himself admitted that his music stands on the shoulders of others.


It sounds plausible, but where did he say this?


----------



## Ingélou

Ras said:


> I am certainly a "light listener" - yes.
> And I have only "scratched the Telemann-surface" - but if Telemann has composed masterpieces that can stand side-by-side with Bach's B minor mass, his 3rd Orchestral Suite, the 5th Brandenburg Concerto etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. and many more etc.'s - then I just haven't had the pleasure to hear those Telemann masterpieces yet...


Listeners to baroque music - light or heavy - are welcome to this thread. 

I am a 'light listener' myself, as folk music takes up much of my time, and I'm also interested in other eras of classical music, but I have certainly learned a lot more about baroque music by reading the many interesting and/or informative posts on this thread, yours included.

Thank you, amigos. :tiphat:


----------



## premont

Jacck said:


> He borrowed the form, the style and sometimes even content. For example - BWV 1065 Concerto for 4 Harpsichords - a transcription of Vivaldi for harpsichords.


The Vivaldi concerto is a bad example of what I am thinking of, because Bach surely never looked upon this concerto as anything but an arrangement. Tell me about any known original composition by Bach, where any borrowing of the content from others is more than superficial, a fugal subject e.g..


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## premont

Jacck said:


> But Bach himself admitted that his music stands on the shoulders of others.


This is true of every composer in the history, They do not compose out of the blue air.


----------



## premont

Ariasexta said:


> Expressive of what?


Difficult to put in words, but while Telemann's music is entertaining for one or two listenings, Bach's music stands endless listenings and still sounds new.


----------



## premont

Ariasexta said:


> I remember you as a hardcore fan of modernism.


You must recall incorrectly. I have never been a great fan of modernism.


----------



## Jacck

premont said:


> The Vivaldi concerto is a bad example of what I am thinking of, because Bach surely never looked upon this concerto as anything but an arrangement. Tell me about any known original composition by Bach, where any borrowing of the content from others is more than superficial, a fugal subject e.g..


I would be a bad idea to say that Bach stole from other composers, but I believe that his style was much influenced by styles from other composers. Butxtehude and Kerll might have been influences on his organ compositions. Listen for example to this












I do not claim that Bach ripped off Kerll, but he might have been influenced by his style (and Buxtehudes and probably many others). Bach was simply a great synthetizer who synthetized in his works the works of many other composers.


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## Ingélou

Jacck said:


> ...Bach was simply a great synthetizer who synthetized in his works the works of many other composers.


A bit like Shakespeare in literature, then...


----------



## premont

Jacck said:


> I would be a bad idea to say that Bach stole from other composers, but I believe that his style was much influenced by styles from other composers. Butxtehude and Kerll might have been influences on his organ compositions. Listen for example to this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do not claim that Bach ripped off Kerll, but he might have been influenced by his style (and Buxtehudes and probably many others). Bach was simply a great synthetizer who synthetized in his works the works of many other composers.


Now that you have elaborated your point of view, I think we are in complete agreement.


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## tdc

To say Bach was _simply_ a great synthesizer sells him short. He was so much more than that, though he was certainly a great synthesizer. Lets look at his work with counterpoint and fugue for example, he not only transcended his predecessors, he redefined the concept/genre.

Telemann for me is perhaps the most dull composer of all the big names of the Baroque.


----------



## Mandryka

yes well Telemann people always seem to want to say that there is wonderful stuff hidden away in all the . . . less wonderful stuff. But they always seem a bit reluctant to come up with specifics. Witness this discussion where noone bothered to respond to my request



Mandryka said:


> The problem I have with Telemann is that there's a hell of a lot of it and a lot of it doesn't interest me. I'd certainly appreciate a sort of essential recordings list -- not necessarily to show the breadth of his work, but to show the summits not of his craft, but of his art, his poetry.


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## classical yorkist

Mandryka said:


> yes well Telemann people always seem to want to say that there is wonderful stuff hidden away in all the . . . less wonderful stuff. But they always seem a bit reluctant to come up with specifics. Witness this discussion where noone bothered to respond to my request


Six Violin Sonatas
Solo Fantasias for Violin
Music of the Nations
Orchestral Suites
Paris Quartets
Trumpet Concerto

I must admit I find his sacred music extremely difficult to navigate. I've heard a few of his passions and cantatas and oratorios and enjoyed them all but I am one of those 'Telemann people's.  
This is a good CD: https://www.brilliantclassics.com/articles/t/telemann-bass-cantatas/


----------



## Ingélou

tdc said:


> To say Bach was _simply_ a great synthesizer sells him short. He was so much more than that, though he was certainly a great synthesizer. Lets look at his work with counterpoint and fugue for example, he not only transcended his predecessors, he redefined the concept/genre.
> 
> Telemann for me is perhaps the most dull composer of all the big names of the Baroque.


I read Jacck's remark as meaning that in the context of being influenced by the work of other composers, Bach was no thief but 'simply' a great synthesiser - just as Shakespeare may have used old plays about Hamlet and Lear but he didn't steal them so much as make them his own, with genius.

Coming fourth after Bach, Handel & Vivaldi is no mean feat - ave, Telemann!


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## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> Six Violin Sonatas
> Solo Fantasias for Violin
> Music of the Nations
> Orchestral Suites
> Paris Quartets
> Trumpet Concerto
> 
> I must admit I find his sacred music extremely difficult to navigate. I've heard a few of his passions and cantatas and oratorios and enjoyed them all but I am one of those 'Telemann people's.
> This is a good CD: https://www.brilliantclassics.com/articles/t/telemann-bass-cantatas/


Thanks very much for this list, Classical Yorkist. :tiphat:


----------



## tdc

Ingélou said:


> Coming fourth after Bach, Handel & Vivaldi is no mean feat - ave, Telemann!


Sometimes the results of TC polls can be a little silly. Telemann placing above Monteverdi is just funny in my opinion.


----------



## Dorsetmike

For anyone who likes Baroque organ works on period intruments you may like the 5 CD set by Jennifer Bate "English organ anthology" it actually covers just into the 1800s with works by Samuel Wesley and William Russell, but by far the majority is earlier, composers include Handel and John Stanley but also Henry Heron, Thomas Roseingrave, Charles Burney, William Walond, Maurice Greene, Thomas Sanders Dupuis, John Travers, John Reading John Keeble, William Boyce, William Croft, Simon Stubley and James Hook.

I will be featuring those that I can find on Youtube from time to time in the Baroque on Youtube topic.

The set is on Amazon UK, maybe elsewhere also

https://www.amazon.co.uk/English-Organ-Anthology-Stanley-Wesley/dp/B00007FZF8/ref=sr_1_9?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1544814543&sr=1-9&keywords=jennifer+bate


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## Ingélou

tdc said:


> Sometimes the results of TC polls can be a little silly. Telemann placing above Monteverdi is just funny in my opinion.


Good point. 
I confess, I'd forgotten about Monteverdi.


----------



## Ingélou

Dorsetmike said:


> For anyone who likes Baroque organ works on period intruments you may like the 5 CD set by Jennifer Bate "English organ anthology" it actually covers just into the 1800s with works by Samuel Wesley and William Russell, but by far the majority is earlier, composers include Handel and John Stanley but also Henry Heron, Thomas Roseingrave, Charles Burney, William Walond, Maurice Greene, Thomas Sanders Dupuis, John Travers, John Reading John Keeble, William Boyce, William Croft, Simon Stubley and James Hook.
> 
> I will be featuring those that I can find on Youtube from time to time in the Baroque on Youtube topic.
> 
> The set is on Amazon UK, maybe elsewhere also
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/English-Organ-Anthology-Stanley-Wesley/dp/B00007FZF8/ref=sr_1_9?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1544814543&sr=1-9&keywords=jennifer+bate


Thank you. :tiphat:
Who would you say is your 'favourite' English composer for the organ, or don't you really have one?


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## Dorsetmike

Difficult question, there are quite a few to choose between, not made any easier by trying to find enough works by the less well known ones. Also for any composer there are some works I like, others which I like less, for example I much prefer the John Stanley organ &/or Harpsichord concerti to those by Handel, though I can't recall having heard any Handel concerti on Harpsichord.

You may have noticed from my postings on the Baroque Youtube topic that I tend to look for the lesser known composers and works, sometimes wonder if I really know what I'm looking for! I do know I'm not happy listening to the radio just regurgitating the same old done to death works; example if I never hear Beethovens 9th again it'll still be too soon.

(where's my tin helmet and slit trench??????)


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## classical yorkist

I hope you will indulge me in one last Telemann's reccomend lion that I absentmindedly left off my list yesterday. His Fantasias for solo flutecare also essential listening.


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## classical yorkist

In fact, treat yourself it's Christmas


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## Mandryka

classical yorkist said:


> Six Violin Sonatas
> Solo Fantasias for Violin
> Music of the Nations
> Orchestral Suites
> Paris Quartets
> Trumpet Concerto
> 
> I must admit I find his sacred music extremely difficult to navigate. I've heard a few of his passions and cantatas and oratorios and enjoyed them all but I am one of those 'Telemann people's.
> This is a good CD: https://www.brilliantclassics.com/articles/t/telemann-bass-cantatas/


Thanks for this. I had a listen to one of the Paris Quartets, the fifth. It's charming and it seems to be well made. It's poised and radiant. Thanks for the nudge to make me listen.

I'm not very familiar with this type of baroque music, but based on what little I've heard, I can well believe that Telemann was an important contributor.


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## Jacck

Pancrace Royer - Pièces de Clavecin (1746), William Christie
simply great


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## classical yorkist

Discovered this yesterday:




I think it's the best piece of Telemann church music I've heard so far.


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## Ingélou

Twangly heaven - Elisabeth Jacquet de la Guerreièces de Clavecin, Allemande, played by Olivier Garde.


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## Ingélou

*Happy Christmas, TC folk.* :cheers:

I just found this Christmas baroque selection on YouTube just now and am enjoying it very much.


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## Dirge

G. F. HANDEL: _Dixit Dominus_ (1707)

F. Palmer & M. Marshall _sopranos_
C. Brett & J. A. Messana _counter-tenors_
R. Morton & A. Thompson _tenors_
D. Wilson-Johnson _bass_
Monteverdi Choir & Orchestra
J. E. Gardiner [Erato '78]





The spirited and characterful nature of the music making carries the day here, as Gardiner's choir and orchestra sing/play with disciplined but unfussy exuberance and infectious conviction throughout. The performance is historically informed but not historically obsessed or constrained, following period practice to a practical extent without being tied down by pretentions of authenticity … although I'm sure that many listeners would have preferred mezzo-sopranos or contraltos to counter-tenors in the alto roles. I flirt with other recordings that come my way, but I always end up returning home to this one.

This might have been the Monteverdi Orchestra's last hurrah on record, or close to it, as the orchestra was dissolved in order to make way for the establishment of the period-instrument-playing English Baroque Soloists the same year.


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## Dorsetmike

Unfortunatly it's blocked in UK, on sale by Amazon but no extracts to listen to.


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## Dirge

Dorsetmike said:


> Unfortunatly it's blocked in UK, on sale by Amazon but no extracts to listen to.


If you're referring to my post (Gardiner's _Dixit Dominus_), try Classical M:

http://www.classicalm.com/en/compos...oronation-Anthem-1-Zadok-the-Priest--Gardiner

Classical M is a vendor, but it provides full-length clips (320 Kbps MP3 streams, no less) ... very nice.


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## Ingélou

Here's a very nice short video about Monteverdi & The Sixteen.






Happy Boxing Day.


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## Ingélou

And this is lovely.

*'Digitally mastered for YouTube's new 1080p High Definition format. Claudio Monteverdi's beautiful "Aria Amorosa" is set in the musical form of a ritornello. Featuring Thomas Cooley, tenor; Elisabeth Reed, cello; David Tayler, theorbo. Video from the San Francisco Early Music Ensemble Voices of Music "Zefiro Torna" concert, September 2009. Voices of Music performs in and records our concerts in St. Mark's Lutheran, SF.'*


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## Jacck

Nicolo Porpora
Laudate pueri
Sinfonia op 2 No 3 in G minor


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## Taggart

Eloquent symmetry. Well played. A master class in fugue by two experts.


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## Ingélou

I've finished listening to *Louis Couperin*, my latest composer in my Baroque Listening Project (see OP).

I think he's good, though for me he doesn't particularly stand out. Still, I'm glad to have listened.

I listened to two long videos on YouTube, one of harpsichord and one of organ music.

Harpsichord:
*Louis Couperin - Pièces pour Clavecin / Harpsichord (Century's recording : Blandine Verlet)*




*It's pretty good music - or good pretty music. Occasionally a piece is more - haunting & experimental. This video as a whole is enchanting filigree.*

Organ:
*L'oeuvre d'orgue Louis Couperin: Davitt Moroney, Boizard organ (1714), Saint-Michel-en-Thierache.*




*This is good music. I got a bit bored listening but that's because organs are not really my bag, except in short exciting bursts, especially when using the more unusual tones available to the instrument. There were a few such pieces on this video that really wowed me. But I'm afraid that the usual organ sound is a trifle 'august' for me.*


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## Ingélou

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Baroque_composers

The next composer up for me is *François Couperin*, 'Couperin le Grand'.

The Composer Guestbook has a few recommended works and recordings but a lot of interesting disagreement as to their quality. 
Francois Couperin

What are your experiences with this composer, cher lecteur - and do *you* have any recommendations?

Happy Hogmanay, and Happy New Year. :tiphat:


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## RICK RIEKERT

One of the great champions of the music of François Couperin, the French claveciniste Blandine Verlet, died yesterday at 76. A student of Huguette Dreyfus in Paris and Ralph Kirkpatrick at Yale, she recorded a vast discography of Frescobaldi, Froberger, Scarlatti, Rameau, Couperin, Bach, Mozart and more. RIP.


----------



## Ingélou

RICK RIEKERT said:


> One of the great champions of the music of François Couperin, the French claveciniste Blandine Verlet, died yesterday at 76. A student of Huguette Dreyfus in Paris and Ralph Kirkpatrick at Yale, she recorded a vast discography of Frescobaldi, Froberger, Scarlatti, Rameau, Couperin, Bach, Mozart and more. RIP.


Sorry to hear it - may she rest in peace. 
I had just finished listening to her playing of Louis Couperin - see post #844.
I had been admiring her playing very much.


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## Dirge

I've posted about my favorite Couperin works before (in the not-too-distant past), so I'll just give the YouTube links to my favorite associated recordings here:

François COUPERIN: _Quatre versets d'un motet composé de l'ordre du Roy_ (1703)
:: Piau, Pelon, Rousset/Les Talens Lyriques [Virgin '93]





François COUPERIN: _Leçons de ténèbres pour le Mercredy saint_ (1714)
:: Piau (1 & 3), Gens (2 & 3), Rousset/Les Talens Lyriques [L'Oiseau-Lyre '97]





François COUPERIN: _Les Folies françoises, ou les Dominos_ from «Pièces de clavecin, livre III, 13e ordre» (1722)
:: Sokolov [Astrée, live '01]




 (_Les Folies françoises, ou les Dominos_ begins at about 11'07" and ends at about 19'43"; there are timing links to the various sections in the first comment below the video.)

* * *

As much as I like the three works listed, I rarely listen to anything else by Couperin … a few of the famous harpsichord pieces every now and again, but that's about it. That said, I did recently stumble upon a potentially interesting 1959/61 recording of _Les Nations_ (1726) by the Jacobean Ensemble (Neville Marriner, Carl Pini, Desmond Dupré & Thurston Dart), so I might listen to an ordre or two and see how it goes. Most modern accounts of the work employ a pool of musicians and vary instrumentation quite a lot, sometimes within a movement, for variety's sake. I tend to find this practice distracting, especially the mixing and matching of woodwinds and strings, and prefer the comforting lack of variety of a fixed strings & harpsichord ensemble like the Jacobean Ensemble.




 ("La Françoise" and "L'Espagnole" only)


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## Mandryka

RICK RIEKERT said:


> One of the great champions of the music of François Couperin, the French claveciniste Blandine Verlet, died yesterday at 76. A student of Huguette Dreyfus in Paris and Ralph Kirkpatrick at Yale, she recorded a vast discography of Frescobaldi, Froberger, Scarlatti, Rameau, Couperin, Bach, Mozart and more. RIP.


There's a very good obituary here where Jean Rondeau says something that really surprised me, he knew her and he says she was



> « sauvage » - à la manière [d]es animaux aux aguets


https://www.telerama.fr/musique/blandine-verlet,-le-clavier-bien-libere,n5533227.php

(Sort of thing they used to say about Argerich maybe) Happy new year, Rick.


----------



## Ingélou

RICK RIEKERT said:


> One of the great champions of the music of François Couperin, the French claveciniste Blandine Verlet, died yesterday at 76. A student of Huguette Dreyfus in Paris and Ralph Kirkpatrick at Yale, she recorded a vast discography of Frescobaldi, Froberger, Scarlatti, Rameau, Couperin, Bach, Mozart and more. RIP.


:tiphat: Thanks to you & to :angel: Blandine Verlet.

Just to say that I kicked off my *Couperin Le Grand* listening project today, New Year's Day 2019, with your video - a beautiful sound, so evocative.

Looking good so far!


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

Wow, I never posted in this thread, and I love baroque! Here is one of my go to albums of baroque.


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## Ingélou

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> View attachment 111191
> 
> Wow, I never posted in this thread, and I love baroque! Here is one of my go to albums of baroque.


Welcome to the thread! :tiphat:

Now that you're here - *please* stay. 
I would love this thread to be a kind of weekly (or whatever) magazine for baroque music, or at the very least, a benign presence.

Baroque Music *rocks*! :guitar:

PS I love Handel too.


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## RICK RIEKERT

Mandryka said:


> There's a very good obituary here where Jean Rondeau says something that really surprised me, he knew her and he says she was
> 
> https://www.telerama.fr/musique/blandine-verlet,-le-clavier-bien-libere,n5533227.php
> 
> (Sort of thing they used to say about Argerich maybe) Happy new year, Rick.


Mandryka, thanks for citing that excellent article and a very happy new year to you. I liked this: « Elle me disait : "Je n'ai rien à te dire" », ajoute Jean Rondeau, qui commença le clavecin avec elle à 6 ans et qui brille aujourd'hui dans le monde du baroque. « Par là, elle voulait dire : "Je ne sais pas plus que toi. Alors écoute-toi". Comment mieux apprendre la musique à quelqu'un ?». Merde! Paroles de sagesse en effet.


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## Mandryka

This is a recording of the Biber Mystery Sonatas with readings. Does anyone know what the readings are exactly, where are they taken from? I can't find anything on the web.


----------



## Ingélou

^^^^^ @Mandryka, I don't know but the review on Amazon says something about a medieval 'rosary psalter' -

*'Before each sonata is performed, a reading from a Rosary Psalter from the late Middle Ages is given by British actor Timothy West. He gives an imposing reading, sounding as if he were acting in a Shakespeare drama. You may enjoy this or be put off by it, depending on your tastes and mood. Frankly, the readings didn't interest me. But it's a small matter to program out the readings on your CD player if you want to.'*

Googling 'rosary psalter' brought me this link, which didn't really make it sound as if a 'rosary psalter' is any different from the usual rosary prayers - http://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/BVM/Rosarium.html

*The Rosary as we know it today started to take its final shape in the fifteenth century. In 1483, a Dominican composed a Rosary booklet called Our Dear Lady's Psalter. It had a Rosary of 15 decades with 15 mysteries, all of which except the last two are what we have today. In 1569, Pope Pius V officially approved the 15 decade form of the Rosary we have today, and in 1573 the same Pope instituted the Feast of the Rosary in thanksgiving for the victory at the battle of Lepanto by Christians over Moslem invaders in which the Rosary played an important part.
*

I wondered if West was reading a short passage from the gospel to introduce each rosary theme - or else, a pious meditation on each mystery, as formulated in the late middle ages - the fifteenth century saw the height of marian devotion in the pre-reformation church.

Actually, no - I see from this modern Catholic Devotional Link https://www.rosarybay.com/pray-the-rosary-with-the-psalms-our-ladys-psalter that each of the 150 prayers in the rosary were linked with one of the 150 psalms, and there was a medieval monastic practice of reading all the 150 psalms in one week.

So presumably West is reading from a Middle English version of the psalms, or a translation based on a medieval version and sounding 'antient'.

Hoping someone else can tell us more - though I personally don't enjoy readings & poems interspersed with music. We have a few cds of early baroque music with poems interspersed and I'm afraid it just makes me squirm.


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## Taggart

Mandryka said:


> This is a recording of the Biber Mystery Sonatas with readings. Does anyone know what the readings are exactly, where are they taken from? I can't find anything on the web.


I can add a little to what Ingélou has said.

AFAIK they are taken from the images and psalter texts pasted into the manuscript of the sonatas. See the BBC review of the CD. This superbly detailed thesis - https://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/obj/s4/f2/dsk1/tape9/PQDD_0024/MQ50576.pdf - confirms this and which describes a possible performance of the sonatas in the chapel of Archbishop Maxirnilian where the Holy Cross fraternity met. In addition to the readings, there were also devotional pictures on the wall to encourage contemplation of the mysteries of the rosary.


----------



## Mandryka

Well done for finding this information you two, much appreciated. You’re much better than I am at using the web! 

I’m interested for this reason. I think there are two ways to play the music. You can either see it as mimetic, a sound picture of the events described in the stories of Christ’s life. Or you can see it as affective - music designed to evoke a mood suitable for a meditation on the relevant Gospel events. I’m trying to make sense of which, if any, of these approaches, Beznosiuk has adopted. 

If the readings are genuinely “authentic “, that’s to say, the things someone using the sonatas as an aid to meditation in Biber’s time would probably have been aware of, then they are a potentially valuable tool for understanding performance.

Normally I don’t like readings either, by the way. But here, they’re very well done and are at least bearable, at least once! It may well be that these sonatas really are best listened to all at once while thinking of the rosary, that’s the hard core real deal! And this may be a good recording to try that out - at least for someone like me who speaks English and who isn’t a catholic - I really know nothing about the rosary.

The recording by the way is restrained. When I first heard it I said to myself that anyone who likes Fretwork would like it, there’s something rather English gentleman about what they do. It was in Sonata 8, about the crown of thorns, where I thought I sensed a mismatch between the feelings and ideas of the reading and the performance - though I could be very wrong about that, only listened once - but that’s what started me on this quest.


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## RICK RIEKERT

Pavlo Beznosiuk was looking for a new way to present the Biber sonatas, 'a new twist' were his words, so he went to the British museum and found the 3 rosary psalters from which West reads in the recording.

The manuscript of the sonatas has no title page, so the various titles in use today derive from the fifteen engravings in the manuscript, one placed at the start of each of the first fifteen compositions depicting, in turn, the fifteen mysteries of the Rosary. Similarly, the concluding Passacaglia is preceded by a drawing of a Guardian Angel holding the hand of a child. The engravings were probably cut from a Rosary psalter, the name given to the hundreds of devotional books published by Rosary confraternities active in central Europe at the time. These books contained detailed instruction on praying the Rosary, and frequently included biblical quotations, meditations, prayers, and engravings depicting the mysteries. Such books were produced by the Jesuits-a religious order who influenced education and devotional practices more than any other religious group in seventeenth-century Europe-and who were known for advocating Rosary devotion with music. As Biber mentions in the Latin dedication of the Rosary Sonatas, Rosary devotion was promoted most ardently by the dedicatee of the collection and Biber's employer, Archbishop Maximilian Gandolph von Khuenberg. The engravings in Biber's manuscript and Rosary psalters show the importance of imagery in Rosary devotion in the region at this time, which correlates with a principal concept of Jesuit devotion, namely, the use all five senses when praying. Thus, by contemplating the image, reading the texts, and hearing the music, individuals were supposed to create a mental picture of the mystery, often in minute detail and at great length.


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## Mandryka

Thank you Rick. I wonder how standardised rosary psalters were.

In the reading for sonata 8, The Crown of Thorns, after Timothy West has described how Jesus was mocked, we're asked to reflect on Mary's distress, her sorrow, on seeing her son treated like this. This reflection on Mary was what I couldn't hear in the music, either as a picture or as a mood. But as I say, I only listened once. 

If you can get it, Gunar Letzbor has written an essay for the booklet for his recording of these sonatas where he talks about how his interpretations were inspired partly by the images in the manuscript.


----------



## Ingélou

Mandryka said:


> I'm interested for this reason. I think there are two ways to play the music. You can either see it as mimetic, a sound picture of the events described in the stories of Christ's life. Or you can see it as affective - music designed to evoke a mood suitable for a meditation on the relevant Gospel events. I'm trying to make sense of which, if any, of these approaches, Beznosiuk has adopted.


But does it have to be either/or? When I'm listening to the Mystery of the Scourging, for example, the mimicking of the strokes and the dramatic & yet tender way that it's played (on the Bizzarrie Armoniche CD) heighten my emotional response.


----------



## Taggart

Rosary psalters  were very common and became almost standardised in the 17th century.

The reading for sonata 8 looks as if it is borrowed from another popular devotion - the Stations of the Cross. The most common version used is the 18th century prayers composed by Alphonsus Liguori where station 4 has a meeting between Jesus and his mother on the way to calvary. The meditation is



> Consider how the Son met his Mother on His way to Calvary. Jesus and Mary gazed at each other and their looks became as so many arrows to wound those hearts which loved each other so tenderly.
> 
> My most loving Jesus, by the pain You suffered in this meeting grant me the grace of being truly devoted to Your most holy Mother. And You, my Queen, who was overwhelmed with sorrow, obtain for me by Your prayers a tender and a lasting remembrance of the passion of Your divine Son.


This is similar in sprit to the much earlier _Stabat Mater_ where Mary stands at the foot of the cross observing the sufferings of her son.


----------



## Mandryka

Ingélou said:


> But does it have to be either/or?


No, and there may be other ways too. But there should be, I think, some relationship between what the music's doing and ideas in the rosary. There's another piece of music which _prima facie_ is like the Mystery Sonatas, by Kuhnau, called the Biblical Sonatas. I'm not sure whether the resemblance is just superficial. And in truth I'm not sure what Kuhnau was doing either -- painting pictures, moods or what.


----------



## Mandryka

Taggart said:


> Rosary psalters  were very common and became almost standardised in the 17th century.
> 
> The reading for sonata 8 looks as if it is borrowed from another popular devotion - the Stations of the Cross. The most common version used is the 18th century prayers composed by Alphonsus Liguori where station 4 has a meeting between Jesus and his mother on the way to calvary. The meditation is
> 
> This is similar in sprit to the much earlier _Stabat Mater_ where Mary stands at the foot of the cross observing the sufferings of her son.


Yes, like a pre echo of the Stabat Mater. Whether it's relevant to the music or not, that's the question! I find it rather difficult to match the mood of sonata 8 with the mood of the stabat mater, at least in most performances!


----------



## Mandryka

One reason I'm specially enjoying this one is that it's expressive throughout the sonatas, even the quick movements and the variations in the sorrowful sonatas for example, seem to fit the mood of the rosary concept I think. From that point of view it's very special. In addition the balance of violin and organ is revealing, more equal than you might expect. And the relative austerity if the instrumentation seems to me to make it more listenable over the long term, and more meditative - less about effects and more about feelings and ideas,

.


----------



## Taggart

Four sets of sprightly dance suites written to entertain an ageing Louis XIV. They were published in 1722 without indication of instrumentation; therefore, the same piece can be played by solo harpsichord or by an ensemble with a bass instrument, a violin, a viol, and an oboe or a flute. These are delightfully played by Jordi Savll, on bass viol, and and his outstanding players who make this graceful music irresistible.


----------



## Ras

Taggart said:


> Four sets of sprightly dance suites written to entertain an ageing Louis XIV. They were published in 1722 without indication of instrumentation; therefore, the same piece can be played by solo harpsichord or by an ensemble with a bass instrument, a violin, a viol, and an oboe or a flute. These are delightfully played by Jordi Savll, on bass viol, and and his outstanding players who make this graceful music irresistible.


That is the only Couperin cd I like.

Captain Savall and his crew also recorded these works:


----------



## Ras

They ought to give Jordi Savall the nobel prize for music. 
Did he receive some prize like that?


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Downloaded just now and listening. I consider CPE Bach to lean more towards baroque than classicism, and like everything I hear


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## Taggart

Ras said:


> They ought to give Jordi Savall the nobel prize for music.
> Did he receive some prize like that?


See wiki for details of his awards. He's Catalan and proud of it and supported by the Catalan (local) Government which is why he turned down the Spanish award in 2014.


----------



## Ras

Taggart said:


> See wiki for details of his awards. He's Catalan and proud of it and supported by the Catalan (local) Government which is why he turned down the Spanish award in 2014.


As a Dane I'm proud to see that Savall received the Danish Sonning Prize in 2012. 

Wow, that's a long discography listed right below the awards...


----------



## Ingélou

According to @KenOC :tiphat:, today is 'A moody day...in musical history. My daily e-mail says that on this day in 1687, Lully got a bit enthusiastic in his conducting and struck his toe with the staff he used to beat the time. A few weeks later he was dead from gangrene.'

So let's hear it for Lully & his music with this fab video that I learned about from @Idiat. :tiphat:


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## classical yorkist

If anyone is in the mood for a 'baroque' film I can highly reccomend the outstandingly good _The Favourite_. Set during the reign of Queen Anne it has lots of baroque music on the soundtrack as well as several scenes of baroque music making. However, if you are of a prudish disposition probably best not to see it, it's quite earthy at times.

(Sorry for my absence from this thread but my PC died and since it was my primary listening device I'm suffering from serious baroque withdrawls)


----------



## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> If anyone is in the mood for a 'baroque' film I can highly reccomend the outstandingly good _The Favourite_. Set during the reign of Queen Anne it has lots of baroque music on the soundtrack as well as several scenes of baroque music making. However, if you are of a prudish disposition probably best not to see it, it's quite earthy at times.
> 
> (Sorry for my absence from this thread but my PC died and since it was my primary listening device I'm suffering from serious baroque withdrawls)


Great to see you - the film sounds good. Thanks. :tiphat:


----------



## jurianbai

just dropping few composers where I often listen, that might be :

Veracini





Boismortier, got to know him because of my flute endeavor





and others more popular names:
Giuseppe Tartini
H.I. Biber


----------



## Jacck

Spiritual music of Bach Family before JS Bach


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## classical yorkist

Jacck said:


> Spiritual music of Bach Family before JS Bach


Gravicembalo has an excellent baroque channel on YouTube.


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## Ingélou

I'm just popping up this YouTube video because I was idly scanning a google link, and came across the name of *Maurice Greene*, an English Baroque Composer of whom I'd never heard. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Greene_(composer)

This sounds very nice, and the lyrics certainly strike home - but does anyone else a little more knowledgeable have something more to add? Information - opinions - videos - recordings? 
(Dorset Mike? Mandryka?)


----------



## Dorsetmike

For a bit more on Maurice Greene try this link

http://search.freefind.com/find.html?id=4341123&pid=r&mode=ALL&n=0&query=maurice+greene

HOASM is a good site for baroque info.


----------



## RICK RIEKERT

At one point Greene and Handel were good friends. Greene admired Handel and according to Charles Burney, Greene "literally condescended to become [Handel's] bellows-blower, when he [Handel] went to St. Paul's to play on the organ…. Handel, after the three o'clock prayers, used frequently to get himself and young Greene locked up in the church together, and in summer often stript unto his shirt, and played till eight or nine o'clock at night." Greene was also a friend of the then famous composer Giovanni Bononcini. Handel quarrelled with Bononcini and when Handel discovered that Greene remained friends with him, Greene became persona non grata with Handel who opined that "Dr. Greene has gone to the devil!". "For many years of his life" Burney informs us, "Handel never spoke of him [Greene] without some injurious epithet".


----------



## Ingélou

RICK RIEKERT said:


> At one point Greene and Handel were good friends. Greene admired Handel and according to Charles Burney, Greene "literally condescended to become [Handel's] bellows-blower, when he [Handel] went to St. Paul's to play on the organ…. Handel, after the three o'clock prayers, used frequently to get himself and young Greene locked up in the church together, and in summer often stript unto his shirt, and played till eight or nine o'clock at night." Greene was also a friend of the then famous composer Giovanni Bononcini. Handel quarrelled with Bononcini and when Handel discovered that Greene remained friends with him, Greene became persona non grata with Handel who opined that "Dr. Greene has gone to the devil!". "For many years of his life" Burney informs us, "Handel never spoke of him [Greene] without some injurious epithet".


Good grief! But how fascinating. 
Thanks, @RICK RIEKERT. :tiphat:

Thanks, Mike, for your link and suggestion in Post #878. :tiphat:


----------



## Ingélou

Just a bit of 'Baroque News' which I find rather exciting. My fiddle teacher will be playing viola with the Academy of Ancient Music when they go to South America in February - I think it's the event described on this page (link below) as Handel's Heroines in South America. Taggart & I were at a 'Concertina Trio' lesson with Jim today, and we look forward to hearing all about it when Fiddle Guru returns. 

https://www.aam.co.uk/


----------



## Taggart

He also mentioned that they were playing music by a (female) contemporary of Mozart - Marie Emmanuelle Bayon Louis Not exactly Baroque but ...

She is a composer who is unknown to us and there is nothing on You Tube.. yet.


----------



## Ingélou

Taggart said:


> Four sets of sprightly dance suites written to entertain an ageing Louis XIV. They were published in 1722 without indication of instrumentation; therefore, the same piece can be played by solo harpsichord or by an ensemble with a bass instrument, a violin, a viol, and an oboe or a flute. These are delightfully played by Jordi Savll, on bass viol, and and his outstanding players who make this graceful music irresistible.


*François Couperin*
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/François_Couperin

I've now finished listening to Couperin le Grand as part of my OP project of listening to all the composers on the Wiki (short) list of Baroque Composers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Baroque_composers

Guest Book - Francois Couperin

_*I listened to - *_
The cd mentioned in Taggart's post, Jrdi Savall's Les Concerts Royaux
plus
This YouTube Video, The Complete Chamber Music




Six hours worth - listened to in instalments, and I always found something fresh and lovely; never got bored.

Viol Music - 




So emotionally expressive. The tunes are nimble and graceful. This comment from below the video sums it up: 
*'Bittersweet and tender; like the memory of parties when all the guests have gone. A sensitive interpretation of this finely constructed and beautifully balanced music.'*

I also listened to half this YouTube video of harpsichord music, but gave up because of the quality of the recording on YT:




It was entitled 'Musique pour deux clavecins' from a cd called L'Apothéose de Lulli: Lulli Aux Champs Elisés. William Christie & Cristophe Rousset, 
It was lovely music though - gorgeous crystalline brilliance.

My verdict on Francois Couperin: 
*I have nothing but praise for this composer. Self-assured, elegant, lovely - nothing like me, but yet I feel so at home with this music. It's as Cary Grant said - 'everyone wants to be Cary Grant, even Cary Grant'.*


----------



## Ingélou

*Antonio Caldara* comes next - no composer guestbook, unless I missed it, so I must look and see what I can find on YouTube.

Recommendations gratefully received - anyone? :tiphat:


----------



## Taggart

Ingélou said:


> *Antonio Caldara* comes next - no composer guestbook, unless I missed it, so I must look and see what I can find on YouTube.
> 
> Recommendations gratefully received - anyone? :tiphat:


There is now - Antonio Caldara 1670 - 1736


----------



## classical yorkist

Ingélou said:


> *Antonio Caldara* comes next - no composer guestbook, unless I missed it, so I must look and see what I can find on YouTube.
> 
> Recommendations gratefully received - anyone? :tiphat:


I have listened to some Caldara and knowing me it was probably large scale religious works and oratorios. I seem to remember he was alright, I don't know if he had a particularly famous work or works.


----------



## Vronsky

Not a new Baroque discovery for me, but I had phases when I exclusively listened Baroque guitar. Beautiful music.


----------



## Jacck

I listened to his Sinfonia in C major and one of the comments on youtube mentions that he sounds like Zelenka, which I agree with. Now listening to his Gloria and I'd say it is great


----------



## Ingélou

Taggart & I just listened to and enjoyed these videos about the difference between baroque and more modern keyboards:


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

So I saw this topic again and wondered if Tartini has been mentioned. Here's a cd I got long ago, when was a bit fed up with Vivaldi (not anymore)


----------



## Jacck

not long ago, Telemann was discussed here. I found a piece of his I really like
TELEMANN: Concerto for Mandolin, Hammered Dulcimer and Harp in F major TWV 53:F1




I especially like the slow movement


----------



## Frank Freaking Sinatra

Ingélou said:


> *Antonio Caldara* comes next - no composer guestbook, unless I missed it, so I must look and see what I can find on YouTube.
> 
> Recommendations gratefully received - anyone? :tiphat:











"Vola Il Tempo / Il Giuoco Di Quadriglio / Che Dite O Miei Pensieri / 4 Canons"

- 












"Trio Sonatas"

- 












"Christmas Cantata"

-


----------



## Jacck

I don't know if Charpentier has been discussed on this thread, but I find his music really amazing. I listened to his opera Médée and it is mind-blowing, but so is his sacred music
Magnificat à trois voix H.73
Grand Magnificat a 8 voci, coro e doppia orchestra
Te Deum H.146


----------



## Taggart

Starts well and finishes excellent! We found the mandolin pieces a little insipid possibly because they had to rein things in to let the mandolin sound through. Once the lute pieces started we found them much better and the violin playing was less restrained and much livelier.


----------



## Dorsetmike

Boyce sonata No 1 synthesized organ and trunpet, the organ sounds fairly normal but I find the trumpet synth intiguing; there are 5 other sonatas with the same synthesized sound,

https://imslp.org/wiki/Special:ImagefromIndex/214224/torat

Scores for all 12 Boyce sonatas for download here

https://imslp.org/wiki/12_Trio_Sonatas_(Boyce%2C_William)


----------



## Jacck

The music of Count Dracula
Johannes Caioni - Codex Caioni


----------



## Taggart

​
Excellent - beautiful and lively. Vivaldi seems to get the best out of his instruments - a lovely balance of tone. Two programmatic pieces from the Op. 10 set for flute, some trumpet and even a bassoon.


----------



## classical yorkist

I own this:https://www.brilliantclassics.com/articles/v/vivaldi-complete-oboe-concertos/
And it's an absolutely delightful listen


----------



## Jacck

The King's Singers: Treason & Dischord
some Dowland and Byrd


----------



## Taggart

Heinechen refreshes the parts other composers can't.

Lively, spirited, extrovert. Not in the first rank, but very competent Baroque music a delightful listen.

Note to self - no guestbook.


----------



## Taggart

Cribbed from Current Listening - https://www.ted.com/talks/daria_van_den_bercken_why_i_take_the_piano_on_the_road_and_in_the_air - a Durch Pianist describing her love pf Handel.


----------



## Ingélou

Taggart said:


> Cribbed from Current Listening - https://www.ted.com/talks/daria_van_den_bercken_why_i_take_the_piano_on_the_road_and_in_the_air - a Durch Pianist describing her love pf Handel.


Thanks, Taggart - well cribbed! This was an absolutely brilliant video. I love Handel! :kiss:


----------



## classical yorkist

I still have no computer to listen to my CDs and rips and it's really starting to get me down, I feel like swearing argggh. I didn't realise just how much I needed baroque music while I was doing my online hobbies (mostly local and family history) which are also absent from my lifestyle the moment. I'm so fed up í ½í¸–


----------



## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> I still have no computer to listen to my CDs and rips and it's really starting to get me down, I feel like swearing argggh. I didn't realise just how much I needed baroque music while I was doing my online hobbies (mostly local and family history) which are also absent from my lifestyle the moment. I'm so fed up ������


I can imagine. I do hope you manage to get something sorted before too long. We're missing you! :tiphat:


----------



## classical yorkist

Ingélou said:


> I can imagine. I do hope you manage to get something sorted before too long. We're missing you! :tiphat:


Thanks, I'm still following the thread but it's killing me not being able to listen as much as I used to.


----------



## classical yorkist

So, I'm giving streaming YouTube on my telly a go. It's ok, just been extremely moved by Allegri's Miserere (as usual!) and I'm now listening to some Netherlands concerti. The problem I have is I don't know what to do while listening. I would normally be doing research etc while listening. I'm not really someone who sits and listens. Oh well, it's at least nice to have some music back in my life.


----------



## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> So, I'm giving streaming YouTube on my telly a go. It's ok, just been extremely moved by Allegri's Miserere (as usual!) and I'm now listening to some Netherlands concerti. The problem I have is I don't know what to do while listening. I would normally be doing research etc while listening. I'm not really someone who sits and listens. Oh well, it's at least nice to have some music back in my life.


I know what you mean. I find it easy to listen & draw or sew or do routine tasks. If I 'just listen', I find my concentration wandering as my busy thoughts climb aboard passing trains.

Glad you've found a way to listen to some music & post about it. Have a fab weekend.


----------



## Taggart

Glorious music. The Te Deum was taken a little fast and one felt that the singers were chasing the musicians. Still, a beautiful listen for a Sunday.

Probably composed in 1690, the Messe de Minuït pour Noël, uses no fewer than ten traditional French carols (or _noels_)while impressively revealing Charpentier's mastery of the concertante style. The folk tunes give the mass a real zip.


----------



## Ingélou

Taggart said:


> Glorious music. The Te Deum was taken a little fast and one felt that the singers were chasing the musicians. Still, a beautiful listen for a Sunday.
> 
> Probably composed in 1690, the Messe de Minuït pour Noël, uses no fewer than ten traditional French carols (or _noels_)while impressively revealing Charpentier's mastery of the concertante style. The folk tunes give the mass a real zip.


I have only one thing to say after listening to Charpentier's Messe de Minuit.
*Vive la France.*

Respectfully,
Madame la Marquise.


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

I've been hearing oratorios by Händel lately. Joshua is currently on my iTunes. I'm awaiting 2 3cd sets very soon (Theodora & Susanna). For my recital this evening I'm starting with the Prelude bwv 999 and ending with Sarabanda/doble from bwv 1002, so I even heard myself!


----------



## tortkis

William Croft: Keyboard Music - Colin Booth (harpsichord)









Suite in C Minor - Ground





Suite in C Minor has deep, exquisite mood. Michael Nyman used the harmonic progression of this piece in An Eye for Optical Theory. I think it is C minor, G major, F minor, B-flat major, and so on. I like the sound of harpsichord Booth plays on this album. It is mild, rich and clear.


----------



## classical yorkist

Ingélou said:


> Taggart & I just listened to and enjoyed these videos about the difference between baroque and more modern keyboards:


I've just watched these videos and enjoyed them tremendously. I could have literally cried with joy when he played the clavichord a little into the first part. I simply adore period keyboard instruments.


----------



## classical yorkist

Today's charity shop find and it's a beauty. Lots of diagrams and illustrations of historical keyboards.


----------



## Ingélou

Ingélou said:


> For love of the Baroque, I vow to undertake a delightful project...
> 
> If you love Baroque music - you will know about that sense of connection with all the beauty in the Universe when you listen to it.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Baroque_composers
> 
> I am going to try and listen to items from the Wiki list in chronological order and write about my experiences...


*Antonio Caldara* -

*I've now finished listening to some of his music that I've been able to find on YouTube, starting with the music recommended on his composer guestbook. 
Antonio Caldara (1670 - 1736)

I enjoyed listening to him, and I think he writes good music. I can't say he stands out for me - the problem is that the quality (and quantity) of music composed in the baroque era is so high. Never was the saying better illustrated - 'The Best is the Enemy of the Good.'

But I am glad that I listened to these works, and I would be very happy to go to a concert and listen to more Caldara, maybe even to buy a cd or two - there doesn't seem to be any Caldara in our wonderful 'baroque box' of cds. 
*
Here's what I listened to -

Stabat Mater - The Sixteen:




Very nice, with some beautiful moments - but for me, a little lack lustre.

Dies Irae (1720)




Stunning Beauty

'The Cervantes Operas; La Retirata
Trailer for a cd to mark 400th anniversary of Cervantes' death - interesting, and the music sounds nice. 





Sinfonie a Quattro - Ars Antiqua Australia




Spirited or tender, elegant but never lacking feeling. Some of the later pieces blend into the wallpaper - but excellent wallpaper.

Chiacona in B flat major




Delicate and Lyrical

Trio Sonata in E Major




Pensive - wistful - lovely

Crucifixus a 16 Voci




Nice, but not really my bag.

Julianne Baird - Ah se toccasse a me - Il giuoco del quadriglio - Caldara




Charming (but no more).

Christmas Cantata - Wurttemberg Chamber Orchestra, Conducted By Rudolf Ewerhart.




Pretty, and a pleasant listen; some lovely voices.

Antonio Caldara Sonate a tre,Ensemble La Fidelissima




Sometimes tender, sometimes spirited. Always lovely.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Next on the list is *Johann Caspar Ferdinand Fischer* - I admit, I never heard of him. And there's no guestbook. But there are some bits and pieces on YouTube, so I shall see what I can cobble together.

Does anyone have any experience of Johann Caspar Ferdinand Fischer, or any recommendations?
They would be gratefully received. :tiphat:


----------



## Marinera

^
Great list Ingelou! Although I have to admit I haven't heard the majority of the works on it.

I'm a bit late for Caldara party, but I'd like to mention that he caught my attention years ago with arias from his oratorios. Like this one, sorry if someone posted it already. The album it is from is a much cherished baroque music disk in my collection.






Another important oratorio that I find irresistibly beautiful is 'Maddalena ai Piedi di Cristo' 




And even better it's not just excerpts, but is recorded in full

Ah, yes a much earlier post jostled my memory, now I remember. I see trio sonata on your list and later album cover with Amandine Beyer performing Trio sonatas on Glossa label reminded me that I was interested to hear them for quite quite some time. Note to self - to listen to them ASAP.


----------



## classical yorkist

Hi Ingelou, I've never heard of Fischer either. Apparently not much of his music survives. Anyway, lots of his harpsichord here:

http://www.saladelcembalo.org/archivio.php#F

I'll be listening as well.


----------



## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> Hi Ingelou, I've never heard of Fischer either. Apparently not much of his music survives. Anyway, lots of his harpsichord here:
> 
> http://www.saladelcembalo.org/archivio.php#F
> 
> I'll be listening as well.


Thank you, classical yorkist. :tiphat:

Please let us know what you think of him. I listened to some short YouTube videos of his harpsichord music yesterday and I really liked it - but I am rather slow on 'following through' these days, as we're busy trying to get the house back on the market.

Mind you, when I read in Wiki that he was a fan of Lully's music and had introduced French baroque style into Germany, I admit, it pre-disposed my judgement.


----------



## Mandryka

There's a lot of different dances in Fischer's suites, canaries, passpieds, branles, plaintes. You can see the impact of French ideas in Germany in the mid C17.


----------



## Taggart

A pleasant listen for a Sunday morning. At first, we thought it a little too breezy and in primary colours. Excellent musicianship but no soul. Once we moved away from flute ... The music had more soul and more sparkle. The Oboe and then the Chalumeaux concerti were much better. The trumpet concerto was excellent. After a recorder break, we finished with a fine trumpet concerto. This shows what Mr Telemann can do.


----------



## LezLee

I don't know much about Baroque or Early Music, but I often really like things I hear on the radio. I heard this on Radio 3 this morning, it's by the ubiquitous Anon in the early 17th century and it's great!


----------



## Ingélou

LezLee said:


> I don't know much about Baroque or Early Music...


Join the Club. All that I can say is that, since starting this thread, I know more than I did.

Hey, post on here whenever you hear some nice baroque music, or want to talk about something germane. 
(And thank you, LezLee - it isn't very often that I get the chance to use the word 'germane'. )


----------



## Taggart

Heinichen now has a guest book - Johann David Heinichen (1681 - 1729)


----------



## Mandryka

The only thing by Heinichen I can remember hearing is called Kleines Harmonisches Labyrinths. I know it because it used to be attributed to J S Bach as BWV 591, and it still finds its way into Bach recordings. It's quite interesting harmonically if played on a suitable organ (Bram Beekman well worth hearing from this point of view)

I certainly wouldn't mind checking out other keyboard music by him, but there doesn't seem to be any.


----------



## Ingélou

Taggart said:


> Heinichen now has a guest book - Johann David Heinichen (1681 - 1729)


Thanks for doing this, Spouse. I notice that there is plenty of material to listen to on YouTube https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=J...ycfgAhUBLlAKHQQVCRgQ_AUIEygA&biw=1024&bih=705
- and of course we have some of his work in our cd collection. He's not too far in the future on my Wiki list project.

Lots of lovely concertos to look forward to. And meanwhile I have the fab keyboard music of Fischer, hitherto unknown to me, to listen to - so good we've ordered the William Christie cd. 










And see classical yorkist's post above, #916, for a link to a collection of Fischer's fab harpsichord music. :tiphat:


----------



## Taggart

Fischer now has a guest book - Johann Caspar Ferdinand Fischer (1656 - 1746)


----------



## Taggart

A smörgåsbord of delights. English dance music really deserves its own thread. There are so many good tunes from Playford some going back into the 15th Century and some by Purcell. There's Apted .. on and on. This is a good introduction covering some of the division music that Playford published as well as the dance tunes. Lovely arrangements, well played.


----------



## Marinera

The release I'm VERY excited about









Due to be released on the 8th of March, 2019

György Vashegyi is and excellent interpreter of French baroque music.


----------



## LezLee

I've just posted this on the current listening thread, but I've realised it's in date for Baroque so here we are.


----------



## classical yorkist

More charity shop buys:









I'm particularly looking forward to listening to the St Marks CD by Andrew Parrott and the Taverner Consort. Lots of Gabrieli goodness.
(For some reason the picture keeps posting upside downí ½í¸Š)


----------



## Ingélou

A Facebook friend originally alerted me to the existence of Stanley, so I thought I'd give this a listen as I got dressed this morning - rather a late levée as befits a Marquise .

I enjoyed it, but it didn't grab me - too cheerful for me, I suppose. Mind you, I'm not an organ wallah, except for a few pieces that hit me on the head.


----------



## LezLee

I’ve never been an organ wallah either, but there’s a Radio 3 programme on Sundays at 4.00pm called ‘Choir and Organ’. I changed over from lovely Guy Garvey on 6 Music one Sunday and heard some surprisingly nice pieces.


----------



## Dorsetmike

I first heard Stanley opus 2 concerti (and downloaded free) on the Baroque Music Library site,

http://www.baroquemusic.org/01Web.html

(Left click on track to listen ot right click and select "Save as" to download)

There is an earlier recording by the Parley of instruments of string only arrangements which I find dire. I've posted all of both Opus 2 and opus 10 of Stanley concerti on the Baroque on Youtube topic back in last October.


----------



## Ingélou

Dorsetmike said:


> I first heard Stanley opus 2 concerti (and downloaded free) on the Baroque Music Library site,
> 
> http://www.baroquemusic.org/01Web.html
> 
> (Left click on track to listen ot right click and select "Save as" to download)
> 
> There is an earlier recording by the Parley of instruments of string only arrangements which I find dire. I've posted all of both Opus 2 and opus 10 of Stanley concerti on the Baroque on Youtube topic back in last October.


Ah, thanks, Mike - :tiphat:
It's become such a long thread that it's hard to remember previous posts, but I'm sorry I overlooked it.


----------



## classical yorkist

I've heard of Stanley but never heard any Stanley. Plus I absolutely love baroque organ music so I'll stick on your video and give it a listen. Interesting to discover he was almost blind.


----------



## classical yorkist

classical yorkist said:


> I've heard of Stanley but never heard any Stanley. Plus I absolutely love baroque organ music so I'll stick on your video and give it a listen. Interesting to discover he was almost blind.


It's incredible really isn't it. I mean Stanley; he's obviously a wonderful composer but the sheer volume of exceptional composers in the baroque period renders him an almost man! The amount of simply breathtaking music in this 1600-1750 period is mindboggling, it's phenomenal and it's quite simply an absolute joy. I mean, I'm not a spiritual person by any stretch of the imagination but the effect the music has on me can only be described as refilling my soul. It's just so rich and nourishing, it makes me walk taller, breathe easier and think more clearly. Baroque composers seem to be trying to articulate the universe through their music, it's never anything less than magisterial.


----------



## Dorsetmike

@ classical yorkist
I can recommend these two CD sets, first is a 2 CD set of all 30 Stanley voluntaries OPUS 5, 6 and 7, second is a 5 CD set of English organ works by various composers between 1700 up to early 1800s

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Stanley-complete-Voluntaries-Organ-Phillips/dp/B0002EQTKY/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=john+stanley&qid=1550955301&s=music&sr=1-1

https://www.amazon.co.uk/English-Organ-Anthology-Stanley-Wesley/dp/B00007FZF8/ref=sr_1_41?keywords=john+stanley&qid=1550955078&s=music&sr=1-41

There is also a lot of Baroque organ on the Baroque Music Library, Bach, Handel. Buxtehude, Pachelbel and others.
http://www.baroquemusic.org/bmlcatalogue.html


----------



## Taggart

Luminous tuneful beauty, exquisitely played. Christie is playing on a modern harpsichord by fellow American William Dowd.

This selection shows both the light, tuneful dance movements and the more stylised preludia, chaconnes and pasacaglia. It also illustrates the way Fischer moved on from the Froberger suite to something more flexible and more beautiful. An excellent CD, shame it's out of print.


----------



## Mandryka

Taggart said:


> Luminous tuneful beauty, exquisitely played. Christie is playing on a modern harpsichord by fellow American William Dowd.
> 
> This selection shows both the light, tuneful dance movements and the more stylised preludia, chaconnes and pasacaglia. It also illustrates the way Fischer moved on from the Froberger suite to something more flexible and more beautiful. An excellent CD, shame it's out of print.


Try the Fischer on this site, played by Fernando de Luca -- it's free, there are a lot of recordings there for the taking. The only composer I've explored there is Kuhnau and I'm VERY impressed, he really has made Kuhnau accessible to me, maybe he'll do the same for Fischer some day.

https://www.saladelcembalo.org/archivio.php


----------



## Taggart

A mixed bag. The harpsichord pieces seem a little pedestrian. The combination of harpsichord and organ with the interaction between the textures is much better.

Soler (1729 - 1783) possibly studied with Scarlatti while they were both in Madrid. Soler tutored the Infante Don Gabriel, a son of King Carlos III, and wrote many of his keyboard sonatas for him They are often compared to the work of Scarlatti.


----------



## Mandryka

Taggart said:


> A mixed bag. The harpsichord pieces seem a little pedestrian. The combination of harpsichord and organ with the interaction between the textures is much better.
> 
> Soler (1729 - 1783) possibly studied with Scarlatti while they were both in Madrid. Soler tutored the Infante Don Gabriel, a son of King Carlos III, and wrote many of his keyboard sonatas for him They are often compared to the work of Scarlatti.


I think the Soler sonatas are better than Scarlatti's.

What you wrote suggests that it's disputed that he studied with Scarlatti, I didn't know that, I always thought it was evident.


----------



## Ingélou

Mandryka said:


> I think the Soler sonatas are better than Scarlatti's.
> 
> What you wrote suggests that it's disputed that he studied with Scarlatti, I didn't know that, I always thought it was evident.


Wiki says that he 'may have' studied with Domenico Scarlatti.

Myself, I prefer Scarlatti - though today was the first time I'd heard Soler.
But to me he seems less 'tuneful' than Scarlatti and overly fond of rhetorical flourishes.

Just my personal taste. :tiphat:


----------



## classical yorkist

Ingélou said:


> Wiki says that he 'may have' studied with Domenico Scarlatti.
> 
> Myself, I prefer Scarlatti - though today was the first time I'd heard Soler.
> But to me he seems less 'tuneful' than Scarlatti and overly fond of rhetorical flourishes.
> 
> Just my personal taste. :tiphat:


I'm no fan of Soler either. I found him a trifle dull and a little to galant for my tastes. Too superficial and lacking depth. Mind you, I'm not a great fan of Scarlatti either. I don't seem to connect with his music.


----------



## Mandryka

classical yorkist said:


> I'm no fan of Soler either. I found him a trifle dull and a little to galant for my tastes. Too superficial and lacking depth. Mind you, I'm not a great fan of Scarlatti either. I don't seem to connect with his music.


Can we agree about this, that he's less dull and superficial than Domenico Scarlatti?

Another one to think about in a similar mould is Seixas.

This is worth hearing I think


----------



## classical yorkist

Mandryka said:


> Can we agree about this, that he's less dull and superficial than Domenico Scarlatti?
> 
> Another one to think about in a similar mould is Seixas.
> 
> This is worth hearing I think
> 
> View attachment 113888


I'm willing to give him another go. I've got such a massive listening list though I don't know when. í ½í¸�


----------



## tdc

I love the music of D. Scarlatti. For me his compositions have a natural, flowing, playful, exuberance. At his best was able to take beauty to profound levels.


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## classical yorkist

tdc said:


> I love the music of D. Scarlatti. For me his compositions have a natural, flowing, playful, exuberance. At his best was able to take beauty to profound levels.


 I'm a 'live and let live' kinda guy. There's plenty of music in the baroque for us all to like something vastly different. It's mostly about personal taste. It's quite a surprise that Im not that keen on D Scarlatti as solo harpsichord works are among my very favourite listening experiences. You'll never find me saying someones rubbish, it's just how I respond. I respect your live for D Scarlatti and you're certainly not alone in that love.
I


----------



## tdc

Some of my favorite Scarlatti sonatas:

The beautiful k.32 Sonata by Domenico Scarlatti sounds very Classical, before the Classical era.
k.32





The k.120 shows a more intense side of Scarlatti, like a lightning strike, perhaps it was a piece like this he was performing in Rome that caused Thomas Roseingrave to comment "When he (Scarlatti) began to play it sounded like ten hundred devils had been at the instrument!"
k.120





By contrast I find the k.380 has such a refined and elegant beauty to it, like the most noble musical expression of admiration and love.
k.380


----------



## Biwa

A tranquil piece for this evening.


----------



## Taggart

The instrumental sections are gorgeous. The vocals are not quite to our taste, but still nice. A lovely performance.

Lully was a dancer and the music he writes for dance is always superb. Kevin Mallon's direction, with the lightness of articulation which he draws from the strings, really serve the balletic character and function of the music.


----------



## Ingélou

Listening to Lully, I was struck once again by my recollection of Amelie Addison (cellist), the tutor for the Baroque Music class at the Historically Informed Summer School that we went to in 2016. She said that Baroque notes always had a shape, and that any note that sounded the same from beginning to end was what was regarded as a 'dead note'. 

I thought that if the bare notes of one of Lully's dance tunes (can't remember which one) were to be played, the tune might sound a bit pedestrian and predictable, but because of the shaped notes, and the trills, languishings, palpitations and tremors, the music sounded as if it lived and breathed, and was so expressive - to my ears, anyway. 

His faster tunes have great elan. As for the slower tunes, I find that Lully's music can be both stately and yet with a sort of sadness behind it, as if acknowledging that all worldly pomp is hollow in the end.


----------



## Mandryka

Biwa said:


> A tranquil piece for this evening.


I'd always thought that Reicken didn't write the sort of music I like, I've tried to listen to everything I could find because Bach was interested in him, but the music seemed to always rapidly wear out its welcome.

Two things have started to make me see why he's not a bad composer at all. One is a recording of harpsichord music which came out this year, played by Clement Geoffroy. And the other is a couple of old performances of that fantasy on Wasserfluessen Babylon, one by Leonhardt at Noordbroek and the other by Winsemius in the Amsterdam New Church.


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## Dorsetmike

Playing about with virtual pipe organ software, instead of loading organ pipe samples I used harpsichord and flute samples to produce this sonata of John Stanley

View attachment stanop1.1.mp3


In its more normal mode with organ samples, a William Boyce voluntary

View attachment boyvol7.mp3


I've also downloaded samples of early instruments like Sackbutts, Shawm and Cornett, now got to find some suitable scores on IMSLP.


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## Dorsetmike

I'd better point out that I don't play any instruments, the VPO software can be driven/played by MIDI file which I generate from Finalé notation software; scores mostly downloaded from IMSLP.


----------



## Clouds Weep Snowflakes

Some Baroque pieces I love:
Bach's Toccatas 
Bach's Minuet and Barinderie 
Purcell's King Arthur
Vivaldi's Four Seasons


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## Taggart

Beautiful music well played and sung. James Bowman gives a superb performance. A fine counter tenor at the height of his powers. Emma Kirkby is good but her voice seems a little light at times and her high notes can sound a little shrill. Christopher Hogwood and his musicians provide an excellent balance against the singers. A fine recording.


----------



## Ingélou

I've hardly posted here in the last three months - I've been a little depressed (with a small d) for one reason & another.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

But now I've finished my sampling of *Johann Caspar Ferdinand Fischer *- his guestbook is here: Johann Caspar Ferdinand Fischer (1656 - 1746)

i had never heard of this composer, but I love his work - it was always a fair bet, I suppose, because he is Lully-an and may even have met Lully, or perhaps studied with Muffat, another Lully-influenced composer. And *I love Lully & the French Baroque style. *.

*Why? There's just something that speaks to me in this rhythmic, elegant, graceful & tuneful music.
*
Here's an account of what I listened to, with my reactions at the time:

*J.C.F. Fischer Harpsichord Works, William Christie*




*Guy can write, guy can play. The music has *tunes* which help you breathe more easily, and also technique - some pieces ripple and cascade more like a harp than a harpsichord. Beautiful & spirited.
I loved this one so much that we bought the cd. Fabulous. 
*
*Johann Caspar Ferdinand Fischer Ariadne Musica*




*Organ music. 40 minutes of glory. Just magical - fresh, clear sound. 
*
*Johann Caspar Ferdinand Fischer (1656--1746): 
Suite Nr. 1 in C-Dur aus »Le Journal du Printemps« op. 1
L'Orfeo Barockorchester
Michi Gaigg, Leitung*




*Strings etc. Gorgeous - so spirited. 
*

Yesterday I listened to this YouTube Harpsichord link - *Passacaglia, played by Siegbert Rampe* - 




*On the YouTube comments, this performance is criticised for a 'stiff unyielding perfomance'; I see what's meant, but I enjoyed it.*

Also Yesterday - I listened to this Youtube link - *Baroque Collection - Music by Johann Caspar Ferdinand Fischer - 432 Hz.*




*Lovely thrilling opening. The heart lifts. Gracious and beautiful. I am wondering why the video has a portrait of Lully on it, though...*

Today - I'm finishing off listening to *Classical Yorkist's link to 'The Handel Harpsichord Room', which has about thirty harpsichord pieces of Fischer's on offer.*, http://www.saladelcembalo.org/hpd/a.php?p=a2017_12. 
*It's brilliant, sparkly, joyful harpsichord music. Thanks, Classical Yorkist. :tiphat:*

*Fischer is simply beautiful.* What a discovery. I am so pleased I started my listening project (see OP).

The next composer on the Wiki Short List of Baroque Composers will be 
*Tomaso Albinoni. *


----------



## Ingélou

Can anyone recommend any particular music by *Tomaso Albinon*i, the next name in my listening project?

He is number 28 in the 50-strong Wiki list of Baroque Composers -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Baroque_composers
- which is the Listening Project that is the foundation to this thread, so I'm more than half-way now, though I've listened to quite a few that are not on the list, recommendations, so my personal list of listens must be up in the 30s somewhere. 
It's been fab so far, and I haven't even yet got on to the Really Big Composers - what a lovely prospect.

He has a guestbook - Tomaso Albinoni.

The Wiki link is here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomaso_Albinoni

We may have something by him in our baroque box, but YouTube and other internet links would be much appreciated.

Thank you. :tiphat:

PS - I've had a quick look at YouTube, and many of the videos are just the twentieth-century pseudo-Albinoni 'Adagio in G minor'. 

Here's an interesting article about that adagio:
https://www.cbcmusic.ca/posts/18137/albinoni-adagio-g-minor-biggest-fraud


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## classical yorkist

Ingélou said:


> I've hardly posted here in the last three months - I've been a little depressed (with a small d) for one reason & another.
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Sorry to hear about your low mood, hope you feel better. Nothing like the restorative power of baroque music if you can summon the will to listen. For me, I completely overdosed on polychoral music a while back and needed a long break from listening.

As for Albinoni, I'm afraid I can't really help. I haven't listened to much of his work but what I have heard, I must admit, has left little impression on me.


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## Common Listener

Ingélou said:


> Can anyone recommend any particular music by *Tomaso Albinon*i, the next name in my listening project?


Not as familiar with him as I'd like to be but Albinoni's Opus 10 is my "first love" of his works.Here's some of the rather lush I Solisti Veneti (which is how I first heard it and into which the Adagio fits fine) and some from the period version of Collegium Musicum 90 (which I haven't really heard but will be checking out, myself). Also check out Opp.7 & 9 for oboe, which CM90 also do.


----------



## Ingélou

Common Listener said:


> Not as familiar with him as I'd like to be but Albinoni's Opus 10 is my "first love" of his works.Here's some of the rather lush I Solisti Veneti (which is how I first heard it and into which the Adagio fits fine) and some from the period version of Collegium Musicum 90 (which I haven't really heard but will be checking out, myself). Also check out Opp.7 & 9 for oboe, which CM90 also do.


Thank you for the post and the links. :tiphat:

All the talk of authenticity regarding Albinoni's work is rather dismaying, as I'm definitely a learner driver where baroque music is concerned.  For me it's all 'personal response'.

I started this thread because I wanted to learn more, and as a peg to hang other people's observations and contributions on.

My thanks to all who post on this thread and by so doing keep Baroque Music as a presence on Talk Classical. :tiphat:

Just to mention that I've started to collect links for TC threads discussing baroque music on the Baroque Group that I started, Baroque Exchange:
https://www.talkclassical.com/groups/baroque-exchange-d1436-threads-on-tc-of.html

The problem with baroque music is like the old advertisement for Crunchy Nut Cornflakes - it's too good.


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## Marinera

My introduction to Albinoni was his popular oboe concerto no.2 op.9. Op.9 and op.7 are perhaps his most recorded bodies of works, I think. That's just observation, I am not completely sure, only concertos from these two opuses keep popping up in various compilations that interest me.

Generally I think more in terms of specific recordings. Albinoni by Marcello Di Lisa - The Baroque Project vol.4 on DHM caught my attention. It has both instrumental and vocal compositions, and four works/compositions are world premier recordings. The Baroque Project is great series.

A link to the album playlist.


----------



## Ingélou

Marinera said:


> My introduction to Albinoni was his popular oboe concerto no.2 op.9. Op.9 and op.7 are perhaps his most recorded bodies of works, I think. That's just observation, I am not completely sure, only concertos from these two opuses keep popping up in various compilations that interest me.
> 
> Generally I think more in terms of specific recordings. Albinoni by Marcello Di Lisa - The Baroque Project vol.4 on DHM caught my attention. It has both instrumental and vocal compositions, and four works/compositions are world premier recordings. The Baroque Project is great series.
> 
> A link to the album playlist.


Thank you, Marinera - that is very useful. :tiphat:


----------



## classical yorkist

As someone who, on the whole, prefers religious/vocal music or keyboard works to date my baroque appetites Albinoni has strayed very far up my league table. From what I've read he was so etching of a upper class dabbler (is that a disservice?) rather than a patronised composer who held a position in court or church. I also understand that he wrote allot of opera but the majority are not extant.


----------



## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> As someone who, on the whole, prefers religious/vocal music or keyboard works to date my baroque appetites Albinoni has strayed very far up my league table. From what I've read he was so etching of a upper class dabbler (is that a disservice?) rather than a patronised composer who held a position in court or church. I also understand that he wrote allot of opera but the majority are not extant.


I noticed that too - that he didn't need to work for hire. So he could do as he wanted & explore his talents - though I suppose it can be argued that working for hire and meeting deadlines does sharpen the faculties wonderfully. 

A lot of his work went up in flames, apparently, at the end of WWII.

I've found one short opera or operatic extract to watch, anyway -


----------



## Duncan

These superb supremely tuneful compositions - rhythmic agility coupled with melodic vibrancy - played on period instruments by the Academy of Ancient Music conducted by Christopher Hogwood are well worth a listen and may hopefully change a mind or two or three! in regards to the merits of Albinoni -

*Link to complete album - (36 tracks) - *






An additional recording of merit -









*Link to complete album -*


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## Ingélou

The Albinoni cds look good. Thank you for the links. :tiphat:


----------



## Marinera

Mollie John said:


> View attachment 116042
> 
> 
> These superb supremely tuneful compositions - rhythmic agility coupled with melodic vibrancy - played on period instruments by the Academy of Ancient Music conducted by Christopher Hogwood are well worth a listen and may hopefully change a mind or two or three! in regards to the merits of Albinoni -
> 
> *Link to complete album - (36 tracks) - *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An additional recording of merit -
> 
> View attachment 116043
> 
> 
> *Link to complete album -*


Thanks for op.10 link, I haven't seen this album before.

I gave up on ever purchasing Manze/Hogwood double decker a year or two ago. It went from 5-8 pounds/euros to 15-20 and now it looks nearly sold out and go for ridiculous prices like 50 euros, the cheapest is for 28 pounds on uk amazon. Unless there's a new reissue in future, I completely missed out on it. It is a very good album.


----------



## Enthusiast

^ There is something cheaper on UK eBay ...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ALBINONI-12-CONCERTOS-2-CD-Hogwwood-AoAM-458-129-2/143208080487?hash=item2157dde467:g:xXgAAOSwCdVcrG~N&frcectupt=true


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## Ingélou

This is a piece I never heard of before, proof positive that Bulldog's TC games are very educational. :tiphat:
Taggart & I sampled all the items on the list before (each) deciding how to vote.

It comes from A Game of Baroque Chamber Works, Round One. https://www.talkclassical.com/60850-game-baroque-chamber-works.html?highlight=#post1619493

To be honest, I'd never heard of the composer either. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Rosenmüller

So here it is - Johann Rosenmuller - 12 Sonatas (1682) : Sonata No. 4 a 3 in C Major

Spirited - tender - lyrical.


----------



## Ingélou

The other composer and piece that we'd never heard of that occurs in Bulldog's game (see the post above) is Franz Benda's Trio Sonata in G Major. It was among Taggart's favourites (on his voting short-list), and I like it very much too.






Benda lived a little later than Rosenmuller, which I think can be heard in the smoother style of music. (But what do I know! ) 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Benda

If anyone reading has experience of Benda or Rosenmuller, or opinions to offer, it would be very nice to read your posts. 
Thank you.


----------



## Taggart

The only word for this is .... Glorious!

The first part is a psalm setting using the Latin text of Psalm 110 (Vulgate 109 see wiki on Psalm Numbering). The work was completed in April 1707 while Handel was living in Italy. It is Handel's earliest surviving autograph. This is followed by the four coronation anthems written in 1727. The performances, both musical and vocal, are excellent. A great listen.


----------



## classical yorkist

I had a bit of a CD buying binge this weekend. I'll post a pic and as I work through them I'll give my thoughts. All sorts of stuff.


----------



## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> I had a bit of a CD buying binge this weekend. I'll post a pic and as I work through them I'll give my thoughts. All sorts of stuff.


I'm looking forward to your posts.


----------



## classical yorkist

My first pen review is, of course, by my beloved Telemann. I'm always interested in hearing his cantatas so this CD was high on my list. Unlike Bach, Telemann composed his cantatas for a domestic setting and it's quite incredible what he can create with only voice, recorder and harpsichord. These cantatas are all from his Harmonisches Gottesdienst which, if my memory is correct, provided a whole years worth of cantatas for people to play at home! They would have to have been fairly skillful musicians is all I can say. I know that some people are a bit dismissive of Telemann, to be honest his style can become a little 'sweet' after a while (alot of his later work is quite Galant and Mozart like), but his music does chime with me very successfully. The recorder parts are really quite wonderful and Telemann clearly gas a skill and a passion for the instrument. Wonderful performances, stately music and I can always rely on Telemann to brighten my day.


----------



## Taggart

Brilliant flowering - every music petal is exactly positioned and perfect.

The Mass in B minor is widely regarded as one of the supreme achievements of classical music. Scholars have suggested that the Mass in B minor belongs in the same category as The Art of Fugue, as a summation of Bach's deep lifelong involvement with musical tradition-in this case, with choral settings and theology. We've never attempted this piece before but found we were blown away. An excellent performance with a strong cast.

What was interesting was that we felt we had grown into the Baroque. We now had a wide experience of Baroque music and a better understanding of the cultural landscape. A few years earlier, this piece would not have moved us in the same way. In many ways, it's like listening to Shakespeare - at first it's just strange; then the greatness begins to shine out; then as you undestand the world view you begin to glimpse how the greatness is achieved.

This is a piece we will return to. There is more, far more, to be got out of it.


----------



## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> View attachment 116579
> 
> 
> My first pen review is, of course, by my beloved Telemann. I'm always interested in hearing his cantatas so this CD was high on my list. Unlike Bach, Telemann composed his cantatas for a domestic setting and it's quite incredible what he can create with only voice, recorder and harpsichord. These cantatas are all from his Harmonisches Gottesdienst which, if my memory is correct, provided a whole years worth of cantatas for people to play at home! They would have to have been fairly skillful musicians is all I can say. I know that some people are a bit dismissive of Telemann, to be honest his style can become a little 'sweet' after a while (alot of his later work is quite Galant and Mozart like), but his music does chime with me very successfully. The recorder parts are really quite wonderful and Telemann clearly gas a skill and a passion for the instrument. Wonderful performances, stately music and I can always rely on Telemann to brighten my day.


:tiphat: Lovely post, classical yorkist! 
Telemann is three along from Albinoni, where I am now in my Wiki List Listening Project, so I'll be coming back to these posts.

There's a very nice Telemann in Round 2 of Bulldog's A Game of Baroque Chamber Works. 
https://www.talkclassical.com/60953-game-baroque-chamber-works.html#post1623135

*Telemann - Septet for 3 Oboes, 3 Violins and Basso Continuo in B flat major, TWV 44/43
Ars Rediviva Ensemble
Milan Munclinger, conductor
*


----------



## philoctetes

One under-rated composer IMO would be Legrenzi... very early baroque with few good recordings... one of a mass by the Ricercar Consort, another with excellent selections on Savall's recent Musica Nova CD, and an old Vanguard by Harnoncourt... but avoid the recent collection of sonatas on the Ricercar label, a rare misfire for them...


----------



## Ingélou

philoctetes said:


> One under-rated composer IMO would be Legrenzi... very early baroque with few good recordings... one of a mass by the Ricercar Consort, another with excellent selections on Savall's recent Musica Nova CD, and an old Vanguard by Harnoncourt... but avoid the recent collection of sonatas on the Ricercar label, a rare misfire for them...


:tiphat: Thanks for the heads-up. As usual, anything off the beaten track, and it's new territory to me. 

Like many another baroque composer I've learned about, he seems to have been a big name in his day and accounted influential. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Legrenzi

There are a number of short videos of Legrenzi's on YouTube - here's one - and after a quick aural mosey, I think he's delightful. 
Was there ever such a sheer quantity of good-quality music about as in the baroque era?


----------



## philoctetes

Well lookie here - Just found this one, released last month... good label too


----------



## Mandryka

Bach wrote a fugue based on a theme of Legrenzi -- BWV 574.


----------



## classical yorkist

Ingélou said:


> Like many another baroque composer I've learned about, he seems to have been a big name in his day and accounted influential.
> Was there ever such a sheer quantity of good-quality music about as in the baroque era?


Quoted for truth! And it brought an interesting speculation/question into my mind. How much of this music was actually heard and by how many? I'll use Louis IV as an example here but it could be any other ruler or patron. Much of his music was composed for his private chapel at Versailles or for his own entertainment, it's not music for Mass consumption. We are working in a world where, to a large extent, public concerts were not a thing and the stratification of society was still incredibly strict. All that music composed for St Marks in Venice or for the Gonzagas in Mantua, who and how many actually heard it? It could be argued that the arrival of the Opera as a form helped in a very small way to democratise music but it still would have only been for the upper echelons of society. However, we are probably still dealing with a situation where some of these breathtaking compositions were heard by a dozen people and then forgotten. As another example, Telemann had to be heavily persuaded that his collection of cantatas for a discreet set of instruments I mentioned above was a worthwhile and economically safe proposal for publication. As it turned it it was incredibly successful but to what extent did music penetrate all levels of society?


----------



## classical yorkist

Apropos of nothing but blimey that Francois Couperin couldn't half compose for the harpsichord! I'm just listening and I feel like I've been renewed, rejuvenated and reinvigorated.


----------



## Enthusiast

This album has been a repeated joy for me all week. Its not going to the shelves in the near future, either.


----------



## classical yorkist

Enthusiast said:


> This album has been a repeated joy for me all week. Its not going to the shelves in the near future, either.
> 
> View attachment 116760
> 
> 
> View attachment 116761


I will search it out and listen. It seems right up my street.


----------



## classical yorkist

A set of responses for Christ's Passion from 1611 by the composer prince Carlo Gesualdo. Despite dating from the baroque period I felt this was very much a work that harked back to Renaissance polyphony. That doesn't mean it was worthless, in fact far from it. Gesualdo pours so much emotion into these vocal works using all manner of dissonances and unusual vocal lines. The pieces move from agonised emotion to stress and tension of the highest order. This really is something quite special. By the second track I was almost moved to tears and Gesualdo's skill is certainly one of manipulating ones emotions and creating sound pictures of the events of Jesus' passion. It's certainly a work of high emotion that I would certainly recommend listening to any version of this. So moving, elevating the passion to high art.


----------



## Mandryka

Enthusiast said:


> This album has been a repeated joy for me all week. Its not going to the shelves in the near future, either.
> 
> View attachment 116760
> 
> 
> View attachment 116761


I like the Clerambaut on that CD, he's a fine composer.


----------



## Mandryka

classical yorkist said:


> View attachment 116784
> 
> 
> A set of responses for Christ's Passion from 1611 by the composer prince Carlo Gesualdo. Despite dating from the baroque period I felt this was very much a work that harked back to Renaissance polyphony. That doesn't mean it was worthless, in fact far from it. Gesualdo pours so much emotion into these vocal works using all manner of dissonances and unusual vocal lines. The pieces move from agonised emotion to stress and tension of the highest order. This really is something quite special. By the second track I was almost moved to tears and Gesualdo's skill is certainly one of manipulating ones emotions and creating sound pictures of the events of Jesus' passion. It's certainly a work of high emotion that I would certainly recommend listening to any version of this. So moving, elevating the passion to high art.


I have a lot of trouble with the music, I often find it hard to concentrate, it's as if the structure is elusive. And for me it's way to rich and samey to listen to lots of the motets -- they were designed to be heard in alternatim with chanting and that's really the only way I can take them. I can easily create a playlist with chant if the recording doesn't have any.

I'm pleased to say that a while ago I finally found a recording which I enjoy, this one, I recommend it enthusiastically


----------



## classical yorkist

Mandryka said:


> I have a lot of trouble with the music, I often find it hard to concentrate, it's as if the structure is elusive. And for me it's way to rich and samey to listen to lots of the motets -- they were designed to be heard in alternatim with chanting and that's really the only way I can take them. I can easily create a playlist with chant if the recording doesn't have any.
> 
> I'm pleased to say that a while ago I finally found a recording which I enjoy, this one, I recommend it enthusiastically
> 
> View attachment 116788


The CD I listened to features chant from a contemporary source to Gesualdo interspersed with the responses. It is quite a rich concoction, slightly overwrought I suppose you could say but quite beguiling I found.


----------



## Taggart

classical yorkist said:


> Telemann had to be heavily persuaded that his collection of cantatas for a discreet set of instruments I mentioned above was a worthwhile and economically safe proposal for publication. As it turned it it was incredibly successful but to what extent did music penetrate all levels of society?


A good question. Lully came from a family of millers and attracted the attention of Roger de Lorraine, chevalier de Guise. Nobody knows where he got his training. Apart from that, Purcell was at the chapel Royal like many in his family. Bach also came from a family of musicians. Both Vivaldi and Handel had fathers who were barbers. Handel's father was actually a proper barber=surgeon whereas Vivaldi's father became a professional musician.

Basically, to be a musician, you needed the time to practice, access to music, access to a tutor and some degree of literacy. All of this meant that music was generally restricted to a small number of usually well to do people. We know little of the folk music of the Baroque period except as it crops up in odd settings e.g. Charpentier's _Messe de Minuit_ using folk carols.

The only time we have clear evidence of music crossing all levels of society is in Scotland in the 18th century. We have people like James Oswald who was Chamber Composer to George III. He began as a musician and dancing master in Dunfermline and wrote tunes which were later used for some of Robert Burns's song lyrics, included in his Caledonian Pocket Companion. He also wrote two classic reel tunes of the Scots fiddle repertory - "The East Neuk of Fife" and "The Flowers of Edinburgh". He was a member of a musical society of composers in London along with Thomas Erskine, 6th Earl of Kellie, John Reid, Charles Burney and others.

Thomas Erskine, 6th Earl of Kellie was a member of the Edinburgh Musical Society which was made up of lawyers, peers, landowners, university academics and soldiers. However we also have the example of Niel Gow who was originally a weaver but became a full time musician. His skill attracted the attention of he Duke of Atholl who became Niel's patron, and also ensured Niel's employment for balls and dance parties put on by the local nobility. In time he became renowned as a fiddler.

In a similar vein is William Marshall who is regarded as one of the greatest composers of Scottish fiddle music. He entered the service of the Duke of Gordon, eventually becoming the Factor to the Gordon Estate. He wrote over 250 tunes. Many of these compositions were named in honor of the Duke's guests. Robert Burns called him "the first composer of Strathspeys of the age".

This confluence of folk music and musicians and the nobility in Scotland is the closest to the various princely courts of Europe which provided patroonage and employment for many musicians.


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## classical yorkist

Well this was very disappointing. So disappointing that I initially just wanted to give it away! I love Venetian polychoral music but this CD of 'odds and sods' just doesn't work at all. The only time it seems to come alive is when they are performing work by the Gabriel's but it's all so bitty. I didn't like the performance or the structure of this CD, some of the pieces sound more like straight polyphony rather than the bold assault of polychoralism. The performances are curiously lacking in gusto, depth and attack. Those blocks of alternating sound just seem to be missing. Perhaps it's the selection of pieces? One thing this CD did do, and I alluded to it earlier, is just how talented Giovanni Gabrieli was as a composer and innovator. I don't like having to write a bad review and this is one of only a small handful of CDs I didn't enjoy. Avoid this CD if you're interested in investigating polychoralism.


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## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> View attachment 116990
> 
> 
> Well this was very disappointing. So disappointing that I initially just wanted to give it away! I love Venetian polychoral music but this CD of 'odds and sods' just doesn't work at all. The only time it seems to come alive is when they are performing work by the Gabriel's but it's all so bitty. I didn't like the performance or the structure of this CD, some of the pieces sound more like straight polyphony rather than the bold assault of polychoralism. The performances are curiously lacking in gusto, depth and attack. Those blocks of alternating sound just seem to be missing. Perhaps it's the selection of pieces? One thing this CD did do, and I alluded to it earlier, is just how talented Giovanni Gabrieli was as a composer and innovator. I don't like having to write a bad review and this is one of only a small handful of CDs I didn't enjoy. Avoid this CD if you're interested in investigating polychoralism.


:tiphat: I have had this sort of disappointment. Thanks for posting - it's good to know your opinion. It all helps to build up my mind-map of the baroque, she said pompously.


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## Ingélou

This is one of the candidates on Bulldog's Baroque Chamber Works game, round 3. 
Couperin - La Superbe. 
I think it's lovely - but then, I love French baroque.






I'm also loving this Bach piece. This may not be the best version, but no doubt someone will put me right. 
Bach, Sonata for Flute and Harpsichord no. 3 in A major, BWV 1032


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## Taggart

This is one of the candidates on Bulldog's Baroque Chamber Works game, round 3. Johann David Heinichen Sonata a 2, for oboe & bassoon in C minor Seibel 277






It's on You Tube a couple of times as in G Minor but then somebody complains - it's in *C* minor. Lovely piece and well played. It shows why Heinichen was considered on a par with Bach.


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## Taggart

Subtle and sinuous.

In Rameau's works, the harpsichord is at the heart of the ensemble, playing a fully written-out obbligato part with virtuosity, with the accompaniment falling to the violin and viola da gamba. Rameau provided for differing instrumental combinations: the flute can replace the violin and a second violin can replace the viola da gamba. Leonhardt is superb on these early recordings and Harnoncourt provides an excellent accompaniment.

From the biography on the really excellent website, "Nikolaus Harnoncourt collected historical instruments and, in addition to his performing and conducting activities, devoted his time to his philosophical analyses of "Musik als Klangrede" ("music as speech"), which have to date remained the seminal works on the performance of early music, the key to an entire universe of forgotten works and musical experiences buried under the sands of time.".


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## flamencosketches

Savall and friends incredible as always... never heard Vivaldi so immense.


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## Duncan

*J S Bach - Chamber Music*

*Musica Antiqua Köln, Reinhard Goebel*

*J S Bach: Chamber Music (Reinhard Goebel & Musica Antiqua Köln) CD 1*






*J S Bach: Chamber Music (Reinhard Goebel & Musica Antiqua Köln) CD 2*






*J S Bach: Chamber Music (Reinhard Goebel & Musica Antiqua Köln) CD 3*






*J S Bach: Chamber Music (Reinhard Goebel & Musica Antiqua Köln) CD 4*






*J S Bach: Chamber Music (Reinhard Goebel & Musica Antiqua Köln) CD 5*






__________________________________________________________________________________

*Bach, J S: Flute Sonata No. 3 in A major, BWV1032 is the last tune on Disc 5...*

*J. S. Bach - Sonata for Flute and Harpsichord in A Major BWV 1032 - 1. Vivace (1/3)*






*J. S. Bach - Sonata for Flute and Harpsichord in A Major BWV 1032 - 2. Largo e dolce (2/3)*






*J. S. Bach - Sonata for Flute and Harpsichord in A Major BWV 1032 - 3. Allegro (3/3)*


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## classical yorkist

This music is a journey. It's a long winding path that twists and turns, goes back on it's self, gets lost in the undergrowth and finally emerges at your destination. Each piece is a map to somewhere you don't know but have somehow heard about in hushed and whispered tones. You might get lost on the journey as the music enmeshes, joins and tangles until you emerge breathless and blinking into the light. Instruments play as one, play against each other and play on their own terms but always with the effortless grace and sublimity of the effortless genius. It is life itself this music, it's the human condition as art. It's simply breathtaking.


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## Dirge

François COUPERIN: _Concerts Royaux_ (1722)
:: Trio Sonnerie [ASV/Gaudeamus '86]
Monica Huggett _Baroque violin_ • Sarah Cunningham _viola da gamba_ • Mitzi Meyerson _harpsichord_





Couperin was a great admirer of Corelli and spent a lot of time trying to reconcile Italian and French styles, not by creating a blended/homogenized hybrid style but by simply juxtaposing pieces of Italian style/character with pieces of French style/character in suites. Such is the case with _Concerts Royaux_, which comprises four French suites of six, five, seven, and seven pieces of French or Italian character, with all but four of the pieces written for two voices. Each suite begins with a prélude and an allemande, but what follows thereafter varies from suite to suite. Although published as a supplement to the third book of harpsichord pieces, the _Concerts Royaux_ are a slightly different animal:

_«The pieces that follow are of another species than those I have given up to now. They are suitable not only for harpsichord, but also for violin, flute, oboe, gamba, and bassoon. I fashioned them for the small chamber concerts to which Louis XIV summoned me almost every Sunday of the year.»_-from the Preface to _Concerts Royaux_

Whether animated, serene, melancholy, what have you, the music is intimate and expressive yet dignified and poised, spontaneous yet mindful of decorum, and it's possessed of a certain sensuous, deftly sensual appeal that never sounds indulgent or inappropriate/out of place-it is Sunday with the Sun King after all. It's the kind of music that needs to be "just so," as going too far risks offending the King, while going not far enough risks boring Him. Fortunately, Couperin is up to the task.

Most modern accounts employ all or most of the Couperin-sanctioned instruments, mixing and matching strings and woodwinds to varying extents, but I tend to favor the economy and timbral consistency of a small string ensemble, and Trio Sonnerie fits that bill neatly. As the group's gambist states in the liner notes: "The present recording chooses the most economical and unified instrumentation, using only violin and viol with continuo; the characters of the pieces themselves lend ample variety." Trio Sonnerie plays in an alert and responsive yet unfussy and ever so slightly gruff way that appeals to me, resisting the temptation to milk the beautiful music for more than it's worth. The ASV recorded sound is pretty good on the whole if not ideally clean, transparent, and atmospheric.


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## Gallus

This is incredibly beautiful. Who is John Jenkins? I don't think I've ever heard of him before, which is strange if he's this good.


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## Mandryka

Gallus said:


> This is incredibly beautiful. Who is John Jenkins? I don't think I've ever heard of him before, which is strange if he's this good.


He's an English composer of music for little ensembles of viols, which are a bit like a cello. He is particularly appreciated for his divisions, which is a way of creating variations by adding notes.

There were many composers for viols in England around this time.

Do you think his music is fairly described as « baroque »?


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## Taggart

The guest book - John Jenkins (1592-1678) - has a number of examples of his work. As to Baroque or not, he's more old style having revived the _In Nomine_ form. He covers the period from Byrd to Purcell.

Charles II really changed the scene when he brought the Violin orchestra back from France. Simpson's _Division Viol_ was modified and re-issued as Banister's _Division Violin_. (Playford was always quick to spot a trend.)


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## philoctetes

Bon appetit


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## Ingélou

Wow - Bulldog's latest game, round 5 of the Baroque Chamber works, has some lovely pieces that we never heard before but want to be able to get our hands on again.

Dario Castello - Sonata prima.






Carlo Farina - Capriccio Stravagante.


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## Ingélou

Purcell Z850 - Sonata for trumpet, 2 violins, viola & b.c. in D major - 1694.

I love trumpet music. Sidney Smith had it right, apart from the pate de foie gras. Substitute smoked salmon on gluten-free crackers.






Scheidt - Ludi musici I: 21. Galliard battaglia a 5, SSWV 59

Something a bit 'renaissance' about this one, but it's gorgeous.


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## philoctetes

You got me wanting to hear viols, found a new group (to me). A good one too.


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## Mandryka

philoctetes said:


> You got me wanting to hear viols, found a new group (to me). A good one too.


Be sure to check their recording of music by William Cranford too.


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## Ingélou

Time to move on from *Albinoni*.

My listening has been very sporadic over the last few weeks because of things happening in my outer and inner life.

Verdict?

I am glad I listened to him. 
He is - 
*Gorgeous - graceful - elegant - often spirited - at times lyrical & tender.
*
I liked him, think he's a good composer, and would listen to him any chance I got.

But he wouldn't go in my pick-list of Baroque Composers - because he is a little smooth & neat for my taste. 
He is Strawberry Creme music - when my taste is for something with more bite. (*Hazelnut Cluster?*  )

My notes on the different pieces are very samey - 'gracious - elegant - lyrical' etc - so I'll mostly just list what I listened to.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My Albinoni Samples on the Net:

Tomaso Albinoni Chamber Sonatas - Donatella Colombo, Clare Ibbott & Marco Rossi





Carlo Torriani sings: PIMPINONE (complete opera) by Tomaso Albinoni
(Actually, I got a bit bored with this - didn't like the male voice much.)





Tommaso Albinoni: Oboe Concerto in D minor, Op. 9, No. 2 (Han de Vries/Alma Musica Amsterdam)




As one of the comments below the video says (in French) - A marvel, which refreshes the heart - I don't get tired of it.


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## Ingélou

*Albinoni - Post 2.* 
*I also listened to these cds found for me by Mollie John. :tiphat:
Thank you - they were gorgeous, spirited, elegant, etc, and I loved the music.
*


Mollie John said:


> View attachment 116042
> 
> 
> These superb supremely tuneful compositions - rhythmic agility coupled with melodic vibrancy - played on period instruments by the Academy of Ancient Music conducted by Christopher Hogwood are well worth a listen and may hopefully change a mind or two or three! in regards to the merits of Albinoni -
> 
> *Link to complete album - (36 tracks) - *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An additional recording of merit -
> 
> View attachment 116043
> 
> 
> *Link to complete album -*


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*Vivaldi *next, and we're going away from time to time & have a lot to do over the next few weeks. 
https://www.talkclassical.com/61085-vivaldi-five-best.html?highlight=
I've got the Vivaldi thread I posted chock-full of fab suggestions, so I think it's a while before I'll report back.


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## Mandryka

What do you think of this, Ingelou? I mention you because you play violin






Edward Bast too may appreciate it I think.


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## Gallus

Today (or, well, yesterday, it just passed midnight) is the birthday of Johann Jakob Froberger, to me a unique figure in the history of keyboard writing and one of my favourite composers for the keyboard in any era. He has such a distinctive style, deep and as dark as any music past or present.






Here's a very sensitive performance a friend linked me, which I found to be a revelation. Very appropriate for a Londoner in a melancholic state at the moment.


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## Ingélou

Mandryka said:


> What do you think of this, Ingelou? I mention you because you play violin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edward Bast too may appreciate it I think.


I don't like it, sorry. The tone of the violin seems very whingy to me.

Luckily, since I mostly play folk-fiddle, I don't think I can be fairly accused of sounding like this.


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## Ingélou

We listened to this cd (Division Music by Pellingman's Saraband) on our way home from Yorkshire today, and it's so beautiful - I love this music and this sound.


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## hammeredklavier

Mandryka said:


> What do you think of this, Ingelou? I mention you because you play violin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edward Bast too may appreciate it I think.


this was composed in 1781, I'm not sure if it fits the definition of a "baroque work" in the context of the thread


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## Mandryka

hammeredklavier said:


> this was composed in 1781, I'm not sure if it fits the definition of a "baroque work" in the context of the thread


Well, that's an interesting thought. Care to expand?


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## hammeredklavier

Mandryka said:


> Well, that's an interesting thought. Care to expand?


I mean, this thread isn't for stuff that we normally classify as 'neo-baroque' music. Is it? Is it ok to post stuff like Mozart Miserere in A minor K85 (1770), or Kyrie in D minor K90 (1772), Fugue in G minor K401 (1773), 'baroque-style' music that was not composed in the baroque era?


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## flamencosketches

hammeredklavier said:


> I mean, this thread isn't for stuff that we normally classify as 'neo-baroque' music. Is it? Is it ok to post stuff like Mozart Miserere in A minor K85 (1770), or Kyrie in D minor K90 (1772), Fugue in G minor K401 (1773), 'baroque-style' music that was not composed in the baroque era?


I say yes. As long as it has all of the hallmarks of a genre, it doesn't matter all that much when it was composed. For example, there were composers writing Romantic music well into the mid 20th century and even to this day. That doesn't make their music not Romantic.

However, this mostly applies to music written not too long after the consensus end of the period. For example, so-called Neo-Baroque music written in the 21st century is probably not worth sharing in this thread due to necessary deviations from the Baroque mold shaped by the passage of two or three centuries. In any case, it's not likely to be as good as the original stuff.

Just about anything within the 18th century is fair game, I say. But this is one man's opinion, what do I know! :lol:


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## Mandryka

hammeredklavier said:


> I mean, this thread isn't for stuff that we normally classify as 'neo-baroque' music. Is it? Is it ok to post stuff like Mozart Miserere in A minor K85 (1770), or Kyrie in D minor K90 (1772), Fugue in G minor K401 (1773), 'baroque-style' music that was not composed in the baroque era?


Ah I see, I've noticed this before, they see baroque as referring to a time period, and a pretty well defined one. I always thought it was a style. Why, how and by whom is the baroque time period defined?


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## hammeredklavier

flamencosketches said:


> Just about anything within the 18th century is fair game, I say. But this is one man's opinion, what do I know! :lol:





Mandryka said:


> Ah I see, I've noticed this before, they see baroque as referring to a time period, and a pretty well defined one. I always thought it was a style. Why, how and by whom is the baroque time period defined?


Very well, in that case,













]

Michael Haydn - P 43, MH 287 - Symphony No. 22 in D major, III. Presto ma non troppo:


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## Mandryka

hammeredklavier said:


> Very well, in that case,


Well noone was saying that anything c18 is baroque.

I repeat. Is "baroque" a style and how is that style defined? Is baroque just a time period, and how and more importantly, why, was that defined?

My own view is that an essential feature baroque is that the counterpoint is allowed to lead the music into dissonances, the essence of the music is that the contrapuntal logic is primary. For me, Rameau, Haendel, Corelli,Vivaldi, Boismortier, Mondonville, Balbastre for example, are at the limits, it's stretching a point to call their music baroque because the nobility of contrapuntal logic has given way to simplified harmonies and the art of decoration (in French they call their music _classicisme _ in fact.) Their music is less profound, too preoccupied with surface charm, to be called baroque.

Re CPE Bach some of what he did seems to me to be really grappling with this movement into surface charm; another interesting one to think about is Seixas.


----------



## Ingélou

Mandryka said:


> Ah I see, I've noticed this before, they see baroque as referring to a time period, and a pretty well defined one. I always thought it was a style. Why, how and by whom is the baroque time period defined?


Difficult.

This question has popped up on the thread before now.

And once someone's started a thread, they can't control what happens on it.

So this is just my opinion.

Style is important, in my view - a lot of composers in the early 1600s sound much more like 'renaissance' than the new baroque style.

But in the end, we could dispute definitions of baroque style endlessly, so I think it's best to have defining dates, arbitrary though that sounds.

After all, there are threads for 'early music', 'galante', 'classical', or particular composers, so no need to put on here anything that isn't pretty obviously baroque.

I started my thread with a project to listen to all the composers on the Wiki Baroque Short List, so I envisaged using the Wiki dates - *1600 to 1750* - as a guide. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baroque_music

I did (originally, not knowing much about the matter) consider the C. P. E. Bach video to be beyond the remit of this thread, but I answered Mandryka's question out of courtesy.
The tone of the violin made more impression on me than the style of the music!


----------



## Ingélou

Mandryka said:


> Well noone was saying that anything c18 is baroque.
> 
> *I repeat. Is "baroque" a style and how is that style defined? Is baroque just a time period, and how and more importantly, why, was that defined?
> *
> My own view is that an essential feature baroque is that the counterpoint is allowed to lead the music into dissonances, the essence of the music is that the contrapuntal logic is primary. For me, Rameau, Haendel, Corelli,Vivaldi, Boismortier, Mondonville, Balbastre for example, are at the limits, it's stretching a point to call their music baroque because the nobility of contrapuntal logic has given way to simplified harmonies and the art of decoration (in French they call their music _classicisme _ in fact.) Their music is less profound, too preoccupied with surface charm, to be called baroque.


Since you ask (again), I will reply (again):

In my opinion, 'Baroque' is primarily *a style* but it's a style used in *a particular time period,* the seventeenth century through to the middle of the eighteenth - just as 'metaphysical poetry' is a style found in the first half of the seventeenth century - but yes, all artistic movements blend into one another and contain survivors, and artists can look backwards and forwards even within their own oeuvre.

So as judgements based on style are very subjective, *in practice*, objective dates are used to cut both English Literature and Musical styles into neat modules.

That's because the world blends into itself on every side, whilst human time is limited, and we need to define a motion or discussion issue before we can start to talk about it.

Ergo, for the purposes of this thread, founded on the Wiki Baroque Composer Short List, I am taking the Wiki dates for defining the Baroque Period.
*1600 - 1750*.

As for why those dates were picked - that's not my concern, but Wiki is only following a widely-accepted span - for example, the date of Monteverdi's L'Orfeo, often counted as one of the first 'baroque' works, is around the start-date, i.e. 1607. At the other end, Bach died in 1750.
So it's convenient and widely-accepted, and will do for me as a general working idea.

And for the names to be discussed, I am concentrating on the Wiki (short) list of Baroque Composers, as cited in the OP: From Peri to Pergolesi 
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Baroque_composers - 
together with other composers _falling within the time period_, as suggested by TC members.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

C.P.E. Bach is not on this list, but began composing before 1750. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Philipp_Emanuel_Bach
Moreover, Wiki considers C. P. E. Bach to be a 'transitional' baroque composer - so he can be included on this thread - if I had any say, which I don't, much.

But he won't be forming part of my Listening Project.

Mozart, Haydn and other 'classical' composers are not relevant to this thread, and would be more helpfully placed on other threads for people lurking or wanting to join the site.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thank you for your discussion of how you see Baroque Style, @Mandryka. :tiphat:

I cannot reply, but I am glad to have your input. I became interested too late in life to get my head round any sort of technical matters in music.

For 'metaphysical poetry' I could come up with a check-list of style-characteristics; but for 'baroque music', I just go on 'how it sounds'. 

And the dates.


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## classical yorkist

£2.50 from the local Cats Shelter today. Can't wait to listen, all I need is the time!


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## Ingélou

^^^^^ Lucky you! Enjoy.


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## classical yorkist

Ingélou said:


> ^^^^^ Lucky you! Enjoy.


I've found charity shops to be a wonderful and fruitful source of baroque CDs. They're well worth checking.


----------



## Ingélou

This is one of the pieces in Bulldog's Baroque Chamber Works Game Round seven.

Marini - Sonate, symphonie, e retornelli, Op. 8: Pass'e mezzo concertanto in dieci parti






The composer is one Biagio Marini - yet another composer of whom I'd never heard. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biagio_Marini

His dates are 1594-1663.

I do love this, and I nearly always love music written in the first half of the seventeenth century.

Surely there are so many classical composers that have been unearthed that just weren't known about when I was young. Despite the dismay of seeing audiences for classical music ageing, shrinking, or becoming more conservative in their tastes, there is also good reason to rejoice.

Music is everywhere - good music is everywhere - good baroque music abounds, if you know where to find it.


----------



## Taggart

La Serenisima at Buxton doing an opera by Caldara


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## classical yorkist

Day off work yesterday and I spent it getting lost in this YouTube channel:

https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCxkJ_8dTQ_GP16JeiRLJ0mg

And I do mean all day! Oh, it's simply marvellous for we harpsichord enthusiasts.


----------



## Dirge

J. S. BACH: Sonatas for violin & keyboard, Nos. 3-6 (early 1720s)
:: Capuçon & Fray [Erato '17]





These disarmingly intimate, almost low-key performances are notable for the refinement and for the gently pointed yet unfussy intricacy of the playing, especially that of pianist David Fray, who tends to steal the focus of the listener's attention away from violinist Renaud Capuçon-not that Capuçon is chopped liver, mind you, but Fray's playing is so insidiously varied and imaginative that it tends to suck you in without your realizing it. Capuçon's more forthright elegance beautifully complements Fray's seductive endeavors without competing with them; if anything, Capuçon is too yielding and sympathetic at times. The pace is mostly moderate and unremarkable, dynamic contrasts are slightly subdued, tension is low but not lax, and rhythmic attack might be described as gently incisive. It's all expertly accomplished, with great coordination and rapport between the players and wonderfully natural/unaffected phrasing throughout, but it's generally too gentle, pliant, and relaxed for my taste. I miss the stiffer backbone, the aristocratic mien, the classical rigor, the inner tension, and the greater sense of challenge & reply that Zimmermann & Pace bring to the table in their outstanding complete set [Sony '06]-my long-standing benchmark in this music (if a dozen years is long enough to be considered long-standing). Capuçon's violin and Fray's piano are well matched and complementary in sound, and the Erato recording is very good on the whole, with a nicely judged balance between the instruments.


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## Mandryka

Dirge said:


> J. S. BACH: Sonatas for violin & keyboard, Nos. 3-6 (early 1720s)
> 
> pianist David Fray, who tends to steal the focus of the listener's attention away from violinist Renaud Capuçon-.


This seems right. Fray's a serious pianist, I mean he has the makings to be a really great pianist, to judge from his recent Schubert. What did you make of him in the keyboard solo of 1019 ? That was a slight disappointment to me, that there wasn't a bit more sense of spontaneity, fantasy. It's not easy to make that movement come off the page, even on harpsichord.


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## Dirge

Mandryka said:


> This seems right. Fray's a serious pianist, I mean he has the makings to be a really great pianist, to judge from his recent Schubert. What did you make of him in the keyboard solo of 1019 ? That was a slight disappointment to me, that there wasn't a bit more sense of spontaneity, fantasy. It's not easy to make that movement come off the page, even on harpsichord.


I'm not taken with Fray's performance of the keyboard solo either, as the movement is not well suited to the gentle/low-key/relaxed/etc. overall approach that Fray and Capuçon adopt throughout these sonatas-plus, as you say, it's a hard movement to pull off in any event. Bob van Asperen [Naxos '99] gives the solo a good go, but I'm not too keen on his partner, Lucy van Dael, or the Naxos set as a whole.


----------



## Rubens

Introducing Sylvius Leopold Weiss (1687-1750), the lute master.


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## classical yorkist

Is it really so long since the last post on here? I hope that you are well Ingelou. I'm still on my back and forth crusade to listen to as much baroque music as I can and I'm still charmed, delighted and overawed at the huge variety and splendour inherent in this most beguiling of periods. I'm also still vainly attempting to put all this music into some for of cultural context for the Early Modern European period. That's what I really like to do. Social history is my thing. Just got a book on the Thirty Years War to try and understand the implications of that on the early Baroque period. However, I do find it difficult to find suitable books s the focus seems to be on Reformation Europe or French Revolution onwards. I'll keep trying though. As I write this post I'm listening to Jordi Savall's version of Bach's Musical Offering. It really is sublime in both composition and execution.


----------



## Biwa

I haven't posted in a while, either. Recently I've been revisiting La Petite Bande/Sigiswald Kuijken's recording of Monteverdi's Vespers. Their performance is for smaller forces with one voice per part. It doesn't quite have the powerful impact of performances with larger forces, but the individual voices bring out the purity and beauty of the music in their own way.


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## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> Is it really so long since the last post on here? I hope that you are well Ingelou. I'm still on my back and forth crusade to listen to as much baroque music as I can and I'm still charmed, delighted and overawed at the huge variety and splendour inherent in this most beguiling of periods. I'm also still vainly attempting to put all this music into some for of cultural context for the Early Modern European period. That's what I really like to do. Social history is my thing. Just got a book on the Thirty Years War to try and understand the implications of that on the early Baroque period. However, I do find it difficult to find suitable books s the focus seems to be on Reformation Europe or French Revolution onwards. I'll keep trying though. As I write this post I'm listening to Jordi Savall's version of Bach's Musical Offering. It really is sublime in both composition and execution.





Biwa said:


> I haven't posted in a while, either. Recently I've been revisiting La Petite Bande/Sigiswald Kuijken's recording of Monteverdi's Vespers. Their performance is for smaller forces with one voice per part. It doesn't quite have the powerful impact of performances with larger forces, but the individual voices bring out the purity and beauty of the music in their own way.


Thank you both for posting.

I do intend to return to my baroque listening project, but at the moment I'm so preoccupied with our house move - we are in York (renting) but still haven't sold in Norfolk (have a buyer, but it is chugging along so slowly). Even now we've unpacked, and I have a bit more time, I just don't have the concentration. But eventually, when I get my head back - there will be Vivaldi. :angel:

I am reading the posts on Talk Classical, though, and I do appreciate your contributions, classical yorkist & Biwa. :tiphat::tiphat:


----------



## classical yorkist

Hope your happy back 'up north' in our glorious Yorkshire! Take care and I look forward to you resuming your listening. In the meantime I shall endeavour to post more.


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## Biwa

Ingélou said:


> Thank you both for posting.
> 
> I do intend to return to my baroque listening project, but at the moment I'm so preoccupied with our house move - we are in York (renting) but still haven't sold in Norfolk (have a buyer, but it is chugging along so slowly). Even now we've unpacked, and I have a bit more time, I just don't have the concentration. But eventually, when I get my head back - there will be Vivaldi. :angel:
> 
> I am reading the posts on Talk Classical, though, and I do appreciate your contributions, classical yorkist & Biwa.


I hope you've got fine weather for your move. I heard about the heatwaves in Europe this summer. We're roasting here in Japan now. :devil:  I need to escape into a cool cathedral. :angel: Today's listening is "Polychoral Splendour from the four galleries of the Abbey Church of Muri"









Heinrich Schütz: Warum toben die Heiden, SWV 23; Saul, Saul, was verfolgst du mich? SWV 415; Komm, Heiliger Geist, Herre Gott, SWV 417; Ich danke dem Herrn von ganzem Herzen, SWV 34; Vater unser, der du bist im Himmel, SWV 411; Zion spricht: Der Herr hat mich verlassen, SWV 46; Alleluja! Lobet den Herrn, SWV 38; Ach Herr, straf mich nicht in deinem Zorn, SWV 24; Wohl dem, der den Herren furchtet, SWV 30; Siehe, es erschien der Engel des Herren Joseph in Traum, SWV 403
Giovanni Gabrieli: Canzon primi toni a 8; Canzon quarti toni a 15; Canzon VIII a 8; Sonata XVIII a 14; Canzon in echo duodecimi toni a 10; Canzon septimi toni a 8

Siri Karoline Thornhill & Stephanie Petitlaurent, sopranos
Jürgen Ochs, Rolf Ehlers, Mirko Ludwig & Manuel Warwitz, tenors
Simon Schnorr & Kees Jan De Koning, basses
Les Cornets Noirs
Capella Murensis
Johannes Strobl


----------



## Mandryka

This sounds very well, and the music's agreeable


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## classical yorkist

Biwa said:


> I hope you've got fine weather for your move. I heard about the heatwaves in Europe this summer. We're roasting here in Japan now. :devil:  I need to escape into a cool cathedral. :angel: Today's listening is "Polychoral Splendour from the four galleries of the Abbey Church of Muri"
> 
> View attachment 122480
> 
> 
> Heinrich Schütz: Warum toben die Heiden, SWV 23; Saul, Saul, was verfolgst du mich? SWV 415; Komm, Heiliger Geist, Herre Gott, SWV 417; Ich danke dem Herrn von ganzem Herzen, SWV 34; Vater unser, der du bist im Himmel, SWV 411; Zion spricht: Der Herr hat mich verlassen, SWV 46; Alleluja! Lobet den Herrn, SWV 38; Ach Herr, straf mich nicht in deinem Zorn, SWV 24; Wohl dem, der den Herren furchtet, SWV 30; Siehe, es erschien der Engel des Herren Joseph in Traum, SWV 403
> Giovanni Gabrieli: Canzon primi toni a 8; Canzon quarti toni a 15; Canzon VIII a 8; Sonata XVIII a 14; Canzon in echo duodecimi toni a 10; Canzon septimi toni a 8
> 
> Siri Karoline Thornhill & Stephanie Petitlaurent, sopranos
> Jürgen Ochs, Rolf Ehlers, Mirko Ludwig & Manuel Warwitz, tenors
> Simon Schnorr & Kees Jan De Koning, basses
> Les Cornets Noirs
> Capella Murensis
> Johannes Strobl


I've mulled buying that, I'm a little obsessed with polychoral music. However, I found it a little expensive. What's it like? Value for money?


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## Biwa

classical yorkist said:


> I've mulled buying that, I'm a little obsessed with polychoral music. However, I found it a little expensive. What's it like? Value for money?


I noticed it's going for around $15 or £12 on Amazon. I don't remember what I paid for it, but I definitely feel it's value for money. At the International Classical Music Awards, it was the winner in the category Baroque/vocal. The music is exquisitely performed by all the singers and musicians. The recording beautifully captures the acoustics of the Abbey Church of Muri, in both 2-ch stereo and 5.0 surround sound. But as they say a picture is worth a thousand words, so I suppose the best way to describe this recording is to offer a demonstration clip.


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## classical yorkist

As you all know one of my main interests is placing baroque music into the wider cultural and artistic milieu of the 17th and 18th centuries. This episode of the BBC's Fake or Fortune Erie's was really good for that.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0007m6z/fake-or-fortune-series-8-4-a-venetian-view
I would also recommend the Gainsborough programme.


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## classical yorkist

The wonderful record label Brilliant Classics have an equally wonderful YouTube channel which is simply stuffed full of their music. I am currently listening to, and being blown away, by this:






It is absolutely brilliant. Telemann was himself a player of the Viola da Gamba and I think he really understands the instrument. These are among some of the very best compositions I've heard from Telemann, it really is that good.


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## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> The wonderful record label Brilliant Classics have an equally wonderful YouTube channel which is simply stuffed full of their music. I am currently listening to, and being blown away, by this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is absolutely brilliant. Telemann was himself a player of the Viola da Gamba and I think he really understands the instrument. These are among some of the very best compositions I've heard from Telemann, it really is that good.


I've bookmarked it on my Facebook for later, having listened to the first few minutes of the opening.

It's lovely - thanks for posting. :tiphat:


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## classical yorkist

A little light reading dropped through my letterbox today.


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## Mandryka

Very imaginative performance of Georg Böhm's _Christe der du bist tag und licht_ - radiant. Joachim Vogelsänger at Lüneburg. Maybe it's a case of the organ for which it was intended helping the organist make sense of the music.


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## Ingélou

We are still living in 'interesting times' - renting a house in York while waiting to see if we can purchase a house in a small town 13 miles away, worried about that, and more worried about Taggart's health.

But this morning I decided to listen to a couple of Bulldog's Baroque Entrants for his latest round, and it made me feel so much more calm and able to cope.

So I've decided to go back to posting regularly on this thread & continuing with my Listening Project (see OP).

I am now on to *Vivaldi* - too prolific to tackle without guidance, so I started a thread, *Vivaldi - Five of the Best*. 
https://www.talkclassical.com/61085-vivaldi-five-best.html?highlight=

I am going to work through the excellent suggestions on this thread, and am beginning with two suggestions from Dr Shatterhand (see post #2) - he advises: 'Try his operas Farnace and Orlando furioso.'

*Antonio Vivaldi - "IL Farnace" (Gelido in ogni vena); countertenour, Max Emanuel Cencic*




*The voice is so pure and so 'august' that it really affects me emotionally - but that's how I listen. I love the baroque blend of voice and instrumental accompaniment. The melody, and the whole effect, is beautiful. *

Also - 
*Antonio Vivaldi "Vedro con mio diletto" from Il Giustino by Jakub Józef Orliński (counter-tenor)*




*I have come across this counter-tenor on another thread, and think he has a wonderful voice, so expressive. It's beautiful - the long-held note at 3.15 is so powerful and contains so much emotion. And the heart-stopping pause at 4.55! This man has the voice of an :angel:.
*

I have little experience of Baroque operas in general, and of Vivaldi's in particular, but these two excerpts persuade me that there's a whole new world of beauty awaiting me - probably not 'live', though I take the opportunity when it's offered, and my fiddle teacher, left behind in Suffolk, plays viola with English Touring Opera. (I've seen ETO operas by Handel & Rameau.)

:tiphat: Thanks, Dr Shatterhand - a fabulous way to start my sampling of Vivaldi.


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## classical yorkist

Monteverdi is 'the' man for baroque opera. Try Orfeo.


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## Ingélou

Thanks, Classical Yorkist - I do like 'Orfeo', but haven't tried any others of Monteverdi's operas. I hope I will, though.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*Listening to Vivaldi:*

In post #3 of my thread Vivaldi - Five of the Best https://www.talkclassical.com/61085-vivaldi-five-best.html?highlight= Art Rock :tiphat: says that his personal favourites from Vivaldi's compositions are *the cello concertos*.

For the purposes of my Listening Project (see OP), I listened to three of them this morning. (I will listen to others in the months to come, I hope).

I picked:
1. Vivaldi - Concerto for two cellos in G minor, RV 531




*A calm reflective sound - that epithet that gets used for cellos, 'mellow'.  Lovely & I enjoyed listening, though I can't say that the lower registers of sound are really my cup of tea. In the faster pieces, the cellos seem to lumber, like dancing bears.*

2. Vivaldi Cello Concerto in D Major - Antonio Vivaldi - The Academy of Chamber Music Performance




 *A lovely rich sound, and shapely melodies. And yet - I still feel that the cello as a solo instrument is not my natural taste.  Portly rather than sprightly.*

3. Vivaldi Cello Concerto in C minor, RV401 by Christophe Coin




This one changed my mind somewhat!  
*C for Cello - this one grabs me much more. The sound is tender and lyrical; the melodies seem to grow organically; the entrances of the other strings seems more delicate & well-judged. Beautiful.*

I enjoyed listening to this music, particularly the third one, and I do love the cello in ensemble music.
This exercise shows again how my listening project is more about me than about the music.

If anyone is more 'into' Vivaldi's Cello Concertos than I, please do tell me your favourites or give a counter-opinion. 
Thank you. :tiphat:


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## Kjetil Heggelund

This one is pretty new and pretty nice!


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## Ingélou

*OP Listening Project - Vivaldi.*

*In post #4 of my thread Vivaldi - Five of the Best, Classical Yorkist :tiphat: said: 'Any listener to Vivaldi should hear his Gloria and the L' estro Armonico at least.'*

*I listened to three of the L'estro Armonico (as a start) and thought they were splendid - full of life and vitality and striking moments - if somewhat formulaic.
*
1. 



A. Vivaldi - L'estro armonico, Op.3, No. 8 a-moll
St. Petersburg Rimsky-Korsakov State Conservatory

2. Antonio Lucio Vivaldi (1678 - 1741)
Concerto L'estro armonico, Op.3 No. 11 in D minor for 2 Violins, Cello, strings and basso continuo RV 565
1. Allegro -- Adagio e spiccato -- Allegro
2. Largo e spiccato (aka Siciliano)
3. Allegro
Tatyana Fedyakova (violin)
Munkh-Erdene Enkhbaatar (violin)
Emin Martirosyan (cello)
Moscow Chamber Orchestra Musica Viva (2017)





3. Vivaldi - Opus 3 no 2 in G minor - L'estro Armonico




Performed by Il Concerto Italiano
Direction: Rinaldo Alessandrini
Featuring Fabio Biondi in the violin

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*As for the Gloria - I have listened to it many times before, and was delighted to do so again.
The only word for it remains - Sublime. 
*





Simon Preston: Emma Kirkby; Judith Nelson, Catherine Bott, Christ Church Cathedral Choir Oxford, Academy of Ancient Music


----------



## Ingélou

*OP Listening Project - Vivaldi - Post 4:*

On my thread Vivaldi - Five of the Best, #6, MollieJohn recommends an album by Adrian Chandler's group La Serenissima, and provides a link.

I was glad to see that because my fiddle teacher (in East Anglia) plays baroque viola with that group, and he was a bit narked that I hadn't put any videos from La Serenissima on my Facebook page.

I've put this one on, and now I have a 'like' from Fiddle Guru. 

I listened to *Vivaldi x 2 by La Serenissima:*





1. Concerto for Two Horns, Strings and Continuo in F Major, RV. 539
*(The first on the La Serenissima CD) - the allegro is a bit 'playful' and mannered for me.
The baroque horns are a bit out of tune too. 
The second movement is serene and the third pleasant enough.
It perhaps comes down to the fact that I'm not a big fan of horns - they seem either to strut or prance - I don't find that they touch my emotions.*

2. Concerto for Two Oboes, Strings and Continuo in D Minor, RV. 535
*(videos 4-7) by La Serenissima
Vibrant & assured*

3. Concerto for Violin, Cello, Strings and Continuo in A Major, RV. 546
Videos 8-10.
*Lovely themes & moods - maybe I'm just a strings person but there seems more feeling to this one.*

4. Concerto for Oboe, Bassoon, Strings and Continuo in G Major, RV. 545 : nos 11-13. 
*Spirited & lovely. The 3rd movement, allegro con molto, is striking & dramatic.*

5. Concerto for Two Horns, Strings and Continuo in F Major, RV. 538
Nos 14-16
*Nice - but for me, baroque horns don't quite 'hit the spot'  ; the second movement, the largo, strings, is triste & thoughtful. Strings stir my emotions so much more.*

6. Concerto for Violin, Cello, Strings and Continuo in B-Flat Major, RV. 547, videos 17-19:
*This one's gorgeous - so joyful*

7. Concerto for Two Oboes, Strings and Continuo in A Minor, RV. 536
Nos. 20-22
* Energy and clarity. I love this one.*

8. Concerto per S.A.S.I.S.P.G.M.D.G.S.M.B. for Violin, Cello, Two Oboes, Two Horns, Strings and Continuo in F Major, RV. 574
Videos 23-25. 
*Fabulous barrage of sound. I even like the horns! 
The second movement - adagio - is plangently melancholy.*

*Overall verdict: an excellent album. *


----------



## Ingélou

Monday morning - raining hard outside - and I'm listening to *Vivaldi's Stabat Mater.*






This was recommended by Flamencosketches in post #7 of my thread Vivaldi - Five of the Best https://www.talkclassical.com/61085-vivaldi-five-best.html?highlight=, and was already one of my favourites. I am delighted to listen to it again. What a great start to the week.

I love it - such elegantly patterned alternation of instruments and voice, and yet the emotion is there underneath. 
And that gooseflesh moment of 'Eia, mater'...!

Stunning.

It never fails.


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## Ingélou

At the suggestion of Marinera :tiphat: (post no. #10, in my thread Vivaldi - Five of the Best), I listened to some of *Vivaldi's Operatic Arias*:





THE VIVALDI EDITION | 20 - Arie d'Opera

*I found them always elegant & sometimes heartfelt. I think I would love seeing a Vivaldi opera if I got the chance. 
Beautiful singing and melodies.*


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## Ingélou

Today's *Vivaldi *offering is a personal memory.

I was reaching back to recall the first Vivaldi piece that I ever heard. 
It was this one, *Vivaldi's Violin Concerto in A minor,RV 356 Op 3 No 6*, played here by Itzhak Perlman.






This burst onto my perception like a meteor when I was for a short while in the senior section of the York Schools Strings Orchestra, aged about 14.
The soloist was a sixth-form boy, with a (twin?) sister - both brilliant violinists.

Listening to the epiphany of Perlman's playing, and looking at the posts below the video, I can well sympathise with this comment :

*"My practice routine:
Get stuck on piece
Listen to better people play piece
Cry at my lack of skill
Repeat."*

And there's another comment I can echo too - 
*"How can the human spirit go so far and be able to create such a wonderful thing? It's more than just wonderful, it's absolutely SUBLIME! Thanks for sharing."*

I am so grateful that York Education Committee in the 1950s and 1960s had the policy of allowing pupils to learn the violin in their schools. I started aged about ten at junior school, and loved it and practised at first - so I was asked to go to the junior section of the York Schools Strings Orchestra, which I did for 4 years. But once I got to grammar school, I stopped practising much, and after being promoted to the senior section, I just couldn't cope and left at my own request.

The man who ran the York Schools Strings Orchestra was called Mr Easy, and he was very kind and very enthusiastic. I owe him a huge debt of gratitude. Through that orchestra I got to know pieces by Handel, Mozart & Bach which I still love.

I wonder if anyone reading this post remembers the York violin scheme and lovely Mr Easy?


----------



## Ingélou

And here's a gorgeous bit of Buxtehude, from :tiphat: Bulldog's latest baroque game round - 
Dietrich Buxtehude: Trio Sonata in B♭Major, BuxWV 259.






This was the only version I could find on YouTube, apart from this snippet with the correct bass viol.






Joyful & timeless. Lovely.


----------



## hammeredklavier

SOUTH GERMAN ORGAN MUSIC AROUND 1750

JOHANN ERNST EBERLIN (1702-1762)

9 Toccatas & Fugues

1. Toccata prima in D minor 00:00
2. Toccata secunda in G minor 07:39
3. Toccata tertia in A minor 14:59
4. Toccata quarta in E minor 23:40
5. Toccata quinta in C major 29:49
6. Toccata sexta in F major 39:35
7. Toccata septima in D major 46:27
8. Toccata octava in G major 52:59
9. Toccata nona in E minor 59:22


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## classical yorkist

I haven't been listening to a lot of Baroque lately, been obsessed with HIP Classical era, but I do havexa couple of things lined up. However, Vivaldi eh? He's alright isn't he but for some reason he doesn't move me. There's nothing wrong with his music and I love it when I hear it but I never think 'ooh I must listen to some Vivaldi today'. Buxtehude, on the other hand, would be as massive thumbs up from me.


----------



## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> I haven't been listening to a lot of Baroque lately, been obsessed with HIP Classical era, but I do havexa couple of things lined up. However, Vivaldi eh? He's alright isn't he but for some reason he doesn't move me. There's nothing wrong with his music and I love it when I hear it but I never think 'ooh I must listen to some Vivaldi today'. Buxtehude, on the other hand, would be as massive thumbs up from me.


I do understand that. There are some Vivaldi pieces that do move me - the piece I mentioned above because of my personal history, and also the Gloria & Stabat Mater - but many that simply make me marvel at the craftsmanship or feel awestruck by his energy.

I'm listening to Vivaldi at the moment because I've arrived at that point on the Wiki List that I mention in the OP as my Listening Project. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Baroque_composers

I want to listen to a bit more Vivaldi recommended in my thread Vivaldi - Five of the Best, but then give him a rest for a while.

Next up is Zelenka - I once started a thread called Wallpaper, anyone? based on the fact that I listened to this composer and felt underwhelmed - 
https://www.talkclassical.com/30833-wallpaper-anyone.html?highlight=

But I'm a bit more attuned to baroque now, so I hope I'll find some good stuff - actually I've listened to some nice Zelenka pieces in Bulldog's game. 

(I've just re-read that Wallpaper thread - voices from the past, and so kind and funny. Amazing, and rather sad. TC seems a bit different now, to me, at least. )


----------



## classical yorkist

Ingélou said:


> I do understand that. There are some Vivaldi pieces that do move me - the piece I mentioned above because of my personal history, and also the Gloria & Stabat Mater - but many that simply make me marvel at the craftsmanship or feel awestruck by his energy.
> 
> I'm listening to Vivaldi at the moment because I've arrived at that point on the Wiki List that I mention in the OP as my Listening Project.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Baroque_composers
> 
> I want to listen to a bit more Vivaldi recommended in my thread Vivaldi - Five of the Best, but then give him a rest for a while.
> 
> Next up is Zelenka - I once started a thread called Wallpaper, anyone? based on the fact that I listened to this composer and felt underwhelmed -
> https://www.talkclassical.com/30833-wallpaper-anyone.html?highlight=
> 
> But I'm a bit more attuned to baroque now, so I hope I'll find some good stuff - actually I've listened to some nice Zelenka pieces in Bulldog's game.
> 
> (I've just re-read that Wallpaper thread - voices from the past, and so kind and funny. Amazing, and rather sad. TC seems a bit different now, to me, at least. )


From the little of Zelenka that I've heard I was impressed. His masses in particular I thought contained something special. If you have a playlist I'll try and listen along with you.


----------



## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> From the little of Zelenka that I've heard I was impressed. His masses in particular I thought contained something special. If you have a playlist I'll try and listen along with you.


I would love to have your responses to Zelenka - but since you're the one with the knowledge, I wonder if I shouldn't rather listen to *your* playlist?

(I'm afraid that, not having much technical expertise, I tend to just pick & choose from YouTube videos once I have decided what would be 'representative' of a particular composer.)

I need a bit of guidance with Zelenka. I will see what I can harvest from Bulldog's current Baroque Game and from the Composer Guest Book - link here: Jan Dismas Zelenka

A quick scan seems to show that TC members regard his Masses the most highly, as you do.

I like Clavichorder's description of Zelenka's music as 'bouncy & quirky'. 

Anyway - I would be most grateful for any suggestions from you, @classical yorkist :tiphat:, and from anyone else reading this thread, as to what are the Zelenka 'must-listen' pieces.

Thank you.

Will now just 'finish' off Vivaldi in a couple of posts...

Wishing everyone a nice day - I can see the York riverbank bathed in sunlight as I type.


----------



## classical yorkist

Ingélou said:


> Wishing everyone a nice day - I can see the York riverbank bathed in sunlight as I type.


My wife and I had the pleasure of a short break to York last week. We went to Fairfax house where I was most interested in the spinet and early square Fortepiano they had. It really is such a wonderful place.


----------



## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> My wife and I had the pleasure of a short break to York last week. We went to Fairfax house where I was most interested in the spinet and early square Fortepiano they had. It really is such a wonderful place.


I've never been there, but I hope to go in the next week or two.

I'll look out for the spinet & fortepiano.


----------



## josquindesprez

Zelenka can be quite a bit more intense than lots of other baroque composers. The first and last movements of his De Profundis would be a good example. His last three masses in particular are well-regarded (Missa dei Patris, Missa dei Filii, and Missa Omnium Sanctorum), though I enjoy all of the masses. The Responsoria pro Hebdomeda Sancta and Invitatorium are long but very good. If you want oratory-style works, Jesu al Calvario is good, and the shorter pieces Immisit Dominus and Deus Duc Fortissime are good choices. I never got into his chamber works, they don’t work for me for some reason, but he mostly did vocal works so it wouldn’t take overly long to work through the chamber pieces.


----------



## Ingélou

To finish off *Vivaldi *(for the time being) I listened to these violin concertos played by *Rachel Podger*, as recommended by MollieJohn and J.e.greenwood on my thread Vivaldi - Five of the Best. 






I found them spirited and beautiful.

And of course I had to listen to the *Four Seasons*. I chose this version by *La Serenissima *(solo violinist & director, *Adrian Chandler*) because my fiddle teacher plays viola on it.






What's there to say, except that it is justly popular. Maybe it's the associations, but it seems like Nature itself - vital, with organic development, and utterly itself. The version by La Serenissima I find particularly striking and beautiful.

I have seen both Rachel Podger (twice) and Adrian Chandler at Norwich Cathedral - playing with Norwich Baroque (my fiddle teacher is the director). I loved Rachel Podger - she was like an angel playing Bach from the pulpit - but Adrian Chandler blew me away. 
Not so much his playing, I dare say, as his explosive personality. 

What I love about Vivaldi is his *elan and verve - semper Vivaldi, semper vivens. *

His religious music I find very moving.

His melodies are elegant and evocative.

What don't I like? - Occasionally I feel he's a bit samey. Some pieces seem to use a sort of Vivaldi formula, the abrupt pulse of chords at the start of a piece - for example. The pieces that I like best have more individual character.

And as said above, sometimes it's his artistry and spirit I'm admiring, but it doesn't touch me emotionally.

All the same, I love his music and I consider him to be a genius. (Ducks under table...)


----------



## Ingélou

josquindesprez said:


> Zelenka can be quite a bit more intense than lots of other baroque composers. The first and last movements of his De Profundis would be a good example. His last three masses in particular are well-regarded (Missa dei Patris, Missa dei Filii, and Missa Omnium Sanctorum), though I enjoy all of the masses. The Responsoria pro Hebdomeda Sancta and Invitatorium are long but very good. If you want oratory-style works, Jesu al Calvario is good, and the shorter pieces Immisit Dominus and Deus Duc Fortissime are good choices. I never got into his chamber works, they don't work for me for some reason, but he mostly did vocal works so it wouldn't take overly long to work through the chamber pieces.


quotation from Wiki -
Zelenka's pieces are characterized by a very daring compositional structure with a highly spirited harmonic invention and complex counterpoint. His works are often virtuosic and difficult to perform, but always fresh and surprising, with sudden turns of harmony. In particular, his writing for bass instruments is far more demanding than that of other composers of his era. His instrumental works, the trio sonatas, capricci, and concertos are exemplary models of his early style (1710s -1720s). The six trio sonatas demand high virtuosity and expressive sensitivity from performers. As Zelenka was himself a violone player, he was known to write fast-moving continuo parts with driving and complicated rhythm.
Zelenka was aware of the music in different regions of Europe. He wrote complex fugues, ornate operatic arias, galant-style dances, baroque recitatives, Palestrina-like chorales, and virtuosic concertos. Zelenka's musical language is closest to Bach's, especially in its richness of contrapuntal harmonies and ingenious usage of fugal themes. Nevertheless, Zelenka's language is idiosyncratic in its unexpected harmonic twists, obsession with chromatic harmonies, large usage of syncopated and tuplet figures, and unusually long phrases full of varied musical ideas. He is sometimes considered Bach's Catholic counterpart.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dear classical yorkist, and other TC readers (if any!  ) -

I'm on to *Zelenka* in my Listening Project for this thread.

As I know nothing about him, I am going to take the advice of TC member josquindesprez :tiphat: & also Wikipedia.

I'm going to listen to the following - I include links to YouTube (just what I could scratch up - not necessarily very good performances).

De Profundis:





Missa Omnium Sanctorum:





Jan Dismas Zelenka - pt1/3, Responsoria pro Hebdomada Sancta: Maundy Thursday - ZWV 55 - Lumen Valo





Jan Dismas Zelenka Sonatas for 2 Oboes, Bassoon and B.C. 1/2





Jan Dismas Zelenka Capriccio in A major ZWV 185, Ludwig Guttler





J.D. Zelenka Capriccio II ZWV 183. Ludwig Guttle





Zelenka - Concertos and sonatas for orchestra





~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Knowing me, it will take me ages even to listen to these few links.

We have all the worry of Taggart's hospital visit (a serious cause, and experimental treatment) in the next fortnight, plus the uncertainties of waiting to see if we can buy a house near York before our rental runs out, and it's not always that I feel in the frame of mind for sustained listening.

I don't think it's feasible, therefore, that I can listen to works by Zelenka *at the same time* as you, classical yorkist, but if you cared to listen to these pieces at *your own* leisure, I would be so glad to have your opinion. :tiphat:
I expect you'll be able to find superior performances, or other masses or orchestral pieces that I really shouldn't have overlooked.

I would also be very grateful for any other posts from anyone here on Zelenka - for example, whether you agree with the Wiki assessment.

Yours in Baroque Music,
Ingélou.


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## classical yorkist

I can't improve on the excellent list by Josquin and I will endeavour to listen to your list and offer some opinions. My best wishes for Taggart and I dearly hope everything falls into place for you. I know it can be hard but baroque music has a wonderful power so listening may be an aide.


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## Dirge

Domenico SCARLATTI ~ Sonatas

My earliest Scarlatti memory is of watching The "World Famous" Lipizzaner Stallions perform to K. 380 on ABC's _Wide World of Sports_ back in the late '60s/early '70s. I had no idea what the music was at the time, but I remembered it when I heard it again maybe ten years later … about the time I began listening to classical music in earnest.

The hodgepodge of works/recordings below includes favorites, interesting alternatives, and a few dubious alternatives.

_Played on piano unless otherwise noted …_

K. 380 :: Wanda Landowska [HMV '34] ~ on Pleyel harpsichord





K. 132 :: Maria Tipo [Vox '54]





K. 9 & K. 27 :: Marcelle Meyer [Les Discophiles français '54/'55]









K. 481 & K. 491 :: Vladimir Horowitz [Columbia '64]









K. 87 & K. 141 :: Anthony di Bonaventura [Connoisseur Society '72]









K. 87 & K. 322/323 :: Igor Kipnis [EMI '76?] ~ on clavichord













K. 208 & K. 239 :: Peter Katin [Claudio '85]









K. 380 :: Mikhail Pletnev [Virgin '94]





K. 8 :: Sergei Babayan [Pro Piano '95]





K. 208 & K. 239 :: Alexandre Tharaud [Virgin '10]


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## Metairie Road

Well, If I was forced to choose only one Vivaldi work...

Juditha triumphans





So many great versions of this oratorio on You Tube, I was spoiled for choice.

Best wishes
Metairie Road


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## classical yorkist

Been listening to this bought from Oxfam in York. It's an interesting chamber arrangement of Art of Fugue, something I'm generally in favour of with this work. It's one of those twisty/turny affairs I often go on about. It's counterpoint taken to vanishing point, to the nth degree to where Bach almost disappears into his own fundament. I found it quite a dry experience, it lacked humanity and joy. I recognise the outstanding achievement but it felt a little like watching an OU documentary about mathematics from the '70's. The cover design is most apt as this kind of Bachian exercise in fugue and counterpoint really does remind me of the Fibonacci sequence made real. An astonishing work of composition but perhaps more didactic rather than enjoyable.


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## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> View attachment 125502
> 
> Been listening to this bought from Oxfam in York. It's an interesting chamber arrangement of Art of Fugue, something I'm generally in favour of with this work. It's one of those twisty/turny affairs I often go on about. It's counterpoint taken to vanishing point, to the nth degree to where Bach almost disappears into his own fundament. I found it quite a dry experience, it lacked humanity and joy. I recognise the outstanding achievement but it felt a little like watching an OU documentary about mathematics from the '70's. The cover design is most apt as this kind of Bachian exercise in fugue and counterpoint really does remind me of the Fibonacci sequence made real. An astonishing work of composition but perhaps more didactic rather than enjoyable.


A very interesting post, and as I understand it, 'dry & mathematical' was the reaction to Bach when his reputation went into a decline in the nineteenth century.

I tried to look for a quotation and found that in more recent times 'The Art of Fugue' has provoked the same reaction - in this Guardian article, Angela Hewitt asked herself 'Could it be that, at the end of his life, Bach had finally written something boring.'
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2012/sep/19/angela-hewitt-battle-bach

I must ask Taggart what he thinks, as he is a Bach fan - I myself don't know 'The Art of Fugue', I'm afraid. 
Perhaps it is the jar of Marmite among Bach's works, the unique flavour you either fancy or you don't.

By the way, thanks for the tip about Oxfam in York - we must take a look there!


----------



## KenOC

The best way I've found to listen to the AoF is via this venerable rendition by the Canadian Brass. Easy to follow the lines and warm, mellow listening.


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## KenOC

I think Bach is a recently-acquired passion in our times. My father was quite taken by Stokowski’s T&F in D minor in the movie Fantasia, but not quite enough to ever buy an LP of Bach’s music. It seems to me that Bach didn’t really take off in the popular mind until Gould’s 1955 Goldberg Variations – and the rest is history.


----------



## Taggart

I decided to give this another listen after reading the above discussion.

OK it's dry but it's also beautiful. My immediate thought is that it fits in more with the 2 and 3 part inventions - a teaching or instructional tool rather than a performance piece. It's an exploration of fugal technique using a single theme. Although some variations are unplayable on a standard harpsichord, it probably represents a series of exercises for the developing musician and composer.

It's probably more enjoyable to play and analyse than it is to listen to. I've run across some more modern works of this sort: some of the later parts of the Mikrokosmos - for example whole tone scales - are also more fun to play than listen to. My previous teacher had done her diploma including Hindemith and felt that she could not listen to it - too "unusual" - but it was a great challenge to play.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Trio sonatas by Buxtehude on spotify all day here. Ensembles playing were Arcangelo and La Reveuse. I'm currently rediscovering baroque music again. I don't think I own a CD with Buxtehude  ...


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## classical yorkist

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Trio sonatas by Buxtehude on spotify all day here. Ensembles playing were Arcangelo and La Reveuse. I'm currently rediscovering baroque music again. I don't think I own a CD with Buxtehude  ...


Buxtehude a real favourite of mine. Everything from cantatas, harpsichord, organ, sonatas. He can do it all.


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## classical yorkist

Taggart said:


> I decided to give this another listen after reading the above discussion.
> 
> OK it's dry but it's also beautiful. My immediate thought is that it fits in more with the 2 and 3 part inventions - a teaching or instructional tool rather than a performance piece. It's an exploration of fugal technique using a single theme. Although some variations are unplayable on a standard harpsichord, it probably represents a series of exercises for the developing musician and composer.
> 
> It's probably more enjoyable to play and analyse than it is to listen to. I've run across some more modern works of this sort: some of the later parts of the Mikrokosmos - for example whole tone scales - are also more fun to play than listen to. My previous teacher had done her diploma including Hindemith and felt that she could not listen to it - too "unusual" - but it was a great challenge to play.


Yes, I would never, ever claim that AoF was anything other than a staggering achievement in the field of composition. However, it just didn't move me at all on that most recent listen. I often found myself agog at the fugues and counterpoints, shaking my head at the intricacy but it was admiration I was feeling. I've heard it on harpsichord, organ and Neville Marriner's St Martin's ensemble recording so I've heard it acrew different ways now.


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## Luchesi

classical yorkist said:


> Yes, I would never, ever claim that AoF was anything other than a staggering achievement in the field of composition. However, it just didn't move me at all on that most recent listen. I often found myself agog at the fugues and counterpoints, shaking my head at the intricacy but it was admiration I was feeling. I've heard it on harpsichord, organ and Neville Marriner's St Martin's ensemble recording so I've heard it acrew different ways now.


We should go back in time and ask Herr Bach, "Should your AoF be enjoyable?" I expect he would say, maybe maybe not, 'depends upon the listener..

There's a remastering of Gould's. I don't know but the uploader says,"This is a fixed, higher-quality version of Glenn Gould's performance of Johann Sebastian Bach's Die Kunst der Fuge (The Art of Fugue), converted to 432Hz by myself."


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## Ingélou

I imagine that it was intensely enjoyable for Bach to work out.

Maybe he would expect 'listeners of discernment' to enjoy it too?

Of course, that counts me out - though I did *appreciate* it.


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## classical yorkist

Ingélou said:


> Maybe he would expect 'listeners of discernment' to enjoy it too?


This is a good question. AoF was left unfinished on Bach's death and was assembled and published by his son CPE Bach. I don't think we can know what his intention was or when and how he would have finished it. The kind of music in AoF was deeply unfashionable at the time and Bach was ploughing a furrow most listeners and musicians were disinterested in.
I personally think a much better listen from the late period of Bach's life the Musical Offering.


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## Mandryka

classical yorkist said:


> This is a good question. AoF was left unfinished on Bach's death and was assembled and published by his son CPE Bach. I don't think we can know what his intention was or when and how he would have finished it. The kind of music in AoF was deeply unfashionable at the time and Bach was ploughing a furrow most listeners and musicians were disinterested in.
> I personally think a much better listen from the late period of Bach's life the Musical Offering.


AoF is late Bach, but it's not all of it _that _late -- the first manuscript contains a cycle of pieces dating from 1740, and these form the heart of the final version. They are from the same period as The Goldberg Variations and WTC 2.

Bach's contemporaries didn't all think that AoF was "deeply unfashionable." In the first edition there's a preface by Friedrich Wilhelm Marpurg which stresses how the music appeals to _current _taste because Bach shows how to "combine an agreeable and flowing melody with the richest harmonies" much as Telemann did in his _Canons Melodieux_






The moral is that these things are complicated. AoF is a complex work which underwent augmentations and revisions over a long period of time; the tastes of the times were changing and Bach's response to that defies any simple account; there's some received wisdom about Bach and indeed gallant style which doesn't stand up to scrutiny . . .


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## classical yorkist

Re the compositional date - yes, it seems that the work was mostly complete by 1742 then apparently left alone by Bach until, maybe, 1748. That's interesting in itself. I wonder why Bach didn't pursue the work back in the early 1740's? What caused him to return to it and add extra pieces? I'm fairly sure the Marpurg preface is from the second edition though.


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## Mandryka

The best thing to read on these questions is a book by David Yearsley called _Bach and the Meanings of Counterpoint._ I recommend it enthusiastically. If you read it you'll become very aware that there is 300 years between Bach and us, and that there were things which he was preoccupied with in his music which to us are mysterious, things like alchemy and composing machines.

Bach was a member of a society called _The Society for Musical Sciences_ run by Lorenz Mizler. Membership imposed onerous obligations to submit scholarly works. Some people believe he returned to AoF to create a comprehensive survey of contrapuntal forms to deposit in Mizler's archives.


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## classical yorkist

Mandryka said:


> The best thing to read on these questions is a book by David Yearsley called _Bach and the Meanings of Counterpoint._ I recommend it enthusiastically. If you read it you'll become very aware that there is 300 years between Bach and us, and that there were things which he was preoccupied with in his music which to us are mysterious, things like alchemy and composing machines.
> 
> Bach was a member of a society called _The Society for Musical Sciences_ run by Lorenz Mizler. Membership imposed onerous obligations to submit scholarly works. Some people believe he returned to AoF to create a comprehensive survey of contrapuntal forms to deposit in Mizler's archives.


Fascinating stuff, I shall definitely be seeking out that book. Thank you.

ETA good grief that's one expensive book!


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## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> Fascinating stuff, I shall definitely be seeking out that book. Thank you.
> 
> ETA good grief that's one expensive book!


https://www.amazon.co.uk/Meanings-Counterpoint-Perspectives-History-Criticism/dp/0521803462

!!!!!


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## Dirge

Antonio VIVALDI: Concerto in D major for lute & strings, RV 93 (1730s)
:: The Julian Bream Consort [RCA '63]




_Julian Bream in his early '60s prime gives a sparkling and stylish performance (with a little help from his friends) of one of Vivaldi's most popular concertos outside of_ The Four Seasons.

G. F. HANDEL: Musette _from_ Concerto grosso in G minor, Op. 6, No. 6 (1739)
:: Leppard/English Chamber Orchestra [Philips '66]




_Leppard and the ECO give a wonderfully ripe performance of the crown jewel of Handel's concerti grossi movements._

Domenico SCARLATTI: Sonatas …

K. 1 in D minor :: Beauséjour [Analekta '16]




_The well-known harpsichordist plays one of Scarlatti's more piano-friendly sonatas on piano.
_
K. 238 in F minor :: Katin [Claudio '85]





K. 417 in D minor :: Bonaventura [Connoisseur Society '72]




_My favorite Scarlatti fugue._

K. 466 in F minor :: Horowitz [Columbia '64]


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## Ingélou

I have finished listening to the samples I picked out of *Zelenka*, 'Bach's Catholic Counterpart' (Wiki).

I based my selection on Josquindesprez's post:



josquindesprez said:


> Zelenka can be quite a bit more intense than lots of other baroque composers. The first and last movements of his De Profundis would be a good example. His last three masses in particular are well-regarded (Missa dei Patris, Missa dei Filii, and Missa Omnium Sanctorum), though I enjoy all of the masses. The Responsoria pro Hebdomeda Sancta and Invitatorium are long but very good. If you want oratory-style works, Jesu al Calvario is good, and the shorter pieces Immisit Dominus and Deus Duc Fortissime are good choices. I never got into his chamber works, they don't work for me for some reason, but he mostly did vocal works so it wouldn't take overly long to work through the chamber pieces.


And having finished this small sample, I find that I agree.

The sacred works are stunning - and the orchestral works are accomplished and pleasant.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
De Profundis:




*Tremendous! (Rather like Klingon Opera.* 

Missa Omnium Sanctorum:




*Ravishing beauty - elegance too - with a spring in its step. Exhilarating to listen to. In places melodies sounded a little 'Slavic', reminding me of Russian Orthodox. Really a glorious experience, and I think that in the future I will definitely try some of his other Masses.
*
Jan Dismas Zelenka - pt1/3, Responsoria pro Hebdomada Sancta: Maundy Thursday - ZWV 55 - Lumen Valo




*Heavenly - what I find interesting is its effect on my psyche: calming & reassuring, that there is indeed a world of bliss & beauty beyond time...
*
Jan Dismas Zelenka Sonatas for 2 Oboes, Bassoon and B.C. 1/2




 *I was going to write that it 'never rises above the pleasant', but I did enjoy the later section of this video much more - the sound of an oboe is really rather lovely
*
Jan Dismas Zelenka Capriccio in A major ZWV 185, Ludwig Guttler




*Spry music - enjoyable but for me nothing special.
*
J.D. Zelenka Capriccio II ZWV 183. Ludwig Guttle




 *Lovely & elegant.
*
Zelenka - Concertos and sonatas for orchestra




*Gracious, usually cheerful music - nothing to dislike, but it doesn't specially grab me.*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This isn't the last time I'll listen to Zelenka - definitely a wonderful composer of sacred music in particular - but for now, it's on to the next composer on my Wiki List, which is:

*Telemann *- there are some posts much earlier on this thread about him, which I must look up.

If anyone can suggest some Telemann 'must-listens', that would be greatly appreciated. :tiphat:


----------



## Ingélou

I have found some of the earlier posts debating the merits of Telemann, and reproduce them here.

I will also look up the Composer Guestbook, and have a look to see if there are some other threads on TC that look useful.

So - *Telemann, anyone?* 



classical yorkist said:


> I really disagree with this view that is often expressed in music circles. Telemann is just as good as Vivaldi, Handel or Bach. His Tafelmusik is incidental sounding because it is incidental music! Try his solo fantasias for violin or the 6 violin sonatas (TWV41) or his groundbreaking use of traditional Polish folk music.





Ras said:


> I don't think anyone is as good as Bach.
> I would rate Telemann below Bach on par with Handel and Vivaldi and probably others.
> 
> This is my favorite Telemann cd :
> 
> View attachment 110567
> 
> 
> The Florilegium Ensemble also made some good Telemann cds for Channel Classics.





Mandryka said:


> The problem I have with Telemann is that there's a hell of a lot of it and a lot of it doesn't interest me. I'd certainly appreciate a sort of essential recordings list -- not necessarily to show the breadth of his work, but to show the summits not of his craft, but of his art, his poetry.





Ariasexta said:


> It makes me sad that people comment on Telemann like that, though I had anticipated such scenario for light listeners.
> 
> Bach`s concertos were far less frequently performed by his contemporaries than Telemann. Telemann`s vocal and instrumental works are definitely no less brilliant than Bach on any term. Bach`s huge fame mostly relies on his contribution to the keyboard repertoir, which weas under the limelight of classicism and praised throughout generations by prominent later composers like Mozart and Mendelsson. Do not rest on other peoples comments.





classical yorkist said:


> I dearly wish that it was easier to navigate Telemann's cantatas and passions as a listener. His religious music is so disparate and uncollected, and unrecorded, and this coupled with the sheer volume of his works makes it very unapproachable.
> 
> ETA Apparently he wrote some 1034 cantatas including 3 complete yearly cycles.





Ariasexta said:


> For Telemanns cantatas, his circle of 72 cantatas under title *Harmonischer Gottesdienst *attracts much attention and has been recorded complete by at least 4-5 different labels. I have 3 cds in the serie from this label
> 
> View attachment 110587
> 
> 
> Very good sound quality and vocal performance. Telemann`s cantatas are so far accessible in terms of stylistic appreciation, it is difficult for musicologists to render old masterials into authentic performance and it takes a lot of resources and time. Whatever is available on the market is mostly assured of quality and value. Maybe, there could be a few aberrant recordings in terms of sound quality and balance between voices.


----------



## Ingélou

Telemann's Composer Guestbook - Georg Philipp Telemann

The Wiki entry on Telemann - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_Philipp_Telemann

My thread asking for a bit of guidance, 'Is anyone wild about Telemann?'
https://www.talkclassical.com/63550-anyone-wild-about-telemann.html#post1723282


----------



## Ingélou

And the discussion continued...



Ras said:


> I am certainly a "light listener" - yes.
> And I have only "scratched the Telemann-surface" - but if Telemann has composed masterpieces that can stand side-by-side with Bach's B minor mass, his 3rd Orchestral Suite, the 5th Brandenburg Concerto etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. and many more etc.'s - then I just haven't had the pleasure to hear those Telemann masterpieces yet...





premont said:


> Difficult to put in words, but while Telemann's music is entertaining for one or two listenings, Bach's music stands endless listenings and still sounds new.





Mandryka said:


> yes well Telemann people always seem to want to say that there is wonderful stuff hidden away in all the . . . less wonderful stuff. But they always seem a bit reluctant to come up with specifics. Witness this discussion where noone bothered to respond to my request





classical yorkist said:


> Six Violin Sonatas
> Solo Fantasias for Violin
> Music of the Nations
> Orchestral Suites
> Paris Quartets
> Trumpet Concerto
> 
> I must admit I find his sacred music extremely difficult to navigate. I've heard a few of his passions and cantatas and oratorios and enjoyed them all but I am one of those 'Telemann people's.
> This is a good CD: https://www.brilliantclassics.com/articles/t/telemann-bass-cantatas/





classical yorkist said:


> I hope you will indulge me in one last Telemann's reccomend lion that I absentmindedly left off my list yesterday. His Fantasias for solo flutecare also essential listening.





classical yorkist said:


> Discovered this yesterday:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think it's the best piece of Telemann church music I've heard so far.


----------



## classical yorkist

Ingélou said:


> And the discussion continued...


I stand by everything I wrote and continue to write about Telemann. He is simply a great composer to listen to and enjoy. So I still recommend:
Paris Quartets
Fantasias for solo violin
Fantasias for solo flute 
6 Violin sonatas

If you go to YouTube and search Telemann Brilliant classics you should be fine


----------



## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> I stand by everything I wrote and continue to write about Telemann. He is simply a great composer to listen to and enjoy. So I still recommend:
> Paris Quartets
> Fantasias for solo violin
> Fantasias for solo flute
> 6 Violin sonatas
> 
> If you go to YouTube and search Telemann Brilliant classics you should be fine


Thank you, classical yorkist. :tiphat:


----------



## Dirge

Tarquinio MERULA: Canzonetta Spirituale sopra alla nanna "Hor ch'è tempo di dormire" (p. 1638)
:: Mingardo, Alessandrini/Concerto Italiano [Naïve '04]




 (~8½ minutes)
_This gently relentless and uncomfortably numb lullaby/canzonetta consists of a melodic line floating pensively above a hypnotic ostinato bass of only two chords. The text/poem depicts the Virgin Mary lulling/rocking the baby Jesus to sleep while she reveals and laments the suffering, the Passion, that is to come-she has foreknowledge of the events as if she were "remembering" them in a waking dream … it's a wee bit creepy, especially as sung by Mingardo._

J. S. BACH: "Nun ist das Heil und die Kraft" BWV 50 (1723?)
:: Gardiner/Monteverdi Choir & English Baroque Soloists [Deo Soli Gloria, live '00]




 (~3 minutes)
_A feisty cantata tidbit that may or may not be by Bach._

Domenico SCARLATTI: Sonata in B minor, K. 197
:: Horowitz [Columbia '64]




 (~5 minutes)
_Yet another favorite Scarlatti work/recording from Horowitz's famed 1964 all-Scarlatti album on Columbia._


----------



## Dirge

While listening to various and sundry chamber music by François COUPERIN, I stumbled upon this fetching live recording on YouTube-it's only 5½ minutes long, so you've no good excuse to skip it … unless, of course, you only have 5¼ minutes of Couperin-listening time left in your allotment:

_Les goûts-réunis_ (1724): Concert No. 10: Plainte & La Tromba
Markku Luolajan-Mikkola _treble and bass viol_ · Mikko Perkola & Anna-Maaria Oramo _basso continuo_ 
[Recorded live in 2003 at Olaus Petri Church, Sweden]





Ancient listeners yearning for the prehistorically informed days of yore will want to check out the decidedly old-fashioned yet wonderfully elegant and aristocratic account of Plainte (here arranged for cello & strings) by Pierre Fournier and the Festival Strings Lucerne under Rudolf Baumgartner. It was recorded as late as 1965, but the playing seems to emanate from Old Vienna or some such time and place:


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## Dirge

Marin MARAIS: _Les folies d'Espagne_ (1701)
:: Savall, Gallet & Smith [Astrée '75] 



:: Pandolfo, Balestracci, Boysen, Costoyas & Meyerson [Glossa '01] 



:: Watillon, Heumann, Diaz, Mascardi & Guglielmi [Alpha '02] 




I've been listening to many and varied recordings of Marais's famous _Les folies d'Espagne_ and have found the three listed above to be most to my liking in their very different ways: for just sitting back and wallowing in the timeless beauty of it all, Savall ('75, not his '98 remake) is my choice; for bold dynamic contrasts and flexible rhythmic daring in the modern Italian HIP mold, Pandolfo gets the nod; and for a more traditional brand of bravura (and a tarantella-like ending that leaves everyone else in the dust), Watillon takes the prize. Both Pandolfo and Watillon employ Baroque guitarists to great effect.


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## Ingélou

:tiphat: Dirge - thank you for including the links to the Folias. I've had a really great listen to all three this morning.


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## Dirge

«The Heroick Mr. Handel»
Anthony Newman, organ
Edward Carroll/New York Trumpet Ensemble [Vox '85]





For grandiose entertainment of the most unabashedly un-HIP and inauthentic kind, it's tough to beat this festive and noisy Vox album, which features rousing accounts of _Music for the Royal Fireworks_ and popular excerpts from various and sundry oratorios and whatnot, all arranged for some combination of organ, trumpet, and/or trumpet ensemble, with timpani and military drums thrown in just to add to the din. Great stuff if you've the constitution to survive it.


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## Dirge

J. S. BACH «Concertos italiens»
:: Alexandre Tharaud _piano_ [harmonia mundi '04]





This concept album, as it were, collects a handful of Bach's concertos for solo keyboard that are based on concertos of various Italian composers-Vivaldi, A. Marcello, B. Marcello, and Torelli(?)-and couples them with Bach's original Concerto in the Italian Style … with a few choice individual movements thrown in for good measure. While most concept albums are better in theory than in practice, this one actually works, as the lesser-known works that Tharaud seeks to shed light on are not lesser works in the general scheme of things-they're actually worth shedding light on.

Tharaud has no HIP ax to grind or authentic pretensions and exploits the full resources of the modern piano without a trace of guilt. He produces a smooth, rounded tone, even when playing forcefully, and shapes/phrases everything in a flowing lyrical way without smoothing over details or softening the rhythmic profile. He plays the fast/faster movements in a relatively forthright and dynamic manner, with much drive and trenchancy when appropriate; by contrast, he treats the slow/slowish movements as intensely contemplative inner monologues and plays them in a suavely negotiated, subtly nuanced, tensely atmospheric way that has a haunting modern edge … indeed, there are some tolling notes worthy of Edgar Allan Poe … some slightly creepy passages reminiscent of Alfred Schnittke in his "dead mother" phase … and the concluding Torelli Andante could pass for the soundtrack to a sequel to the ultra-popular Halo 3 "Believe" television commercial from a dozen or so years ago-aka Chopin's "Raindrop" prelude (Op. 28/15) by ubiquitous session pianist and film score composer Michael Lang: 




An interesting and compelling album all around.


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## Rogerx

Vivaldi - Concerto for Two Violins in A Minor RV522


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## Rogerx

Apollo's Fire Performs Vivaldi's 'La Folia'

:lol:


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## Rogerx

VIVALDI Concerto a minor for two violins


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## Ingélou

Looks rather fabulous - not too far from our new home in Yorkshire, so I hope we're able to go.


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## Ingélou

*My Listening Project: Telemann*



Ingélou said:


> Telemann's Composer Guestbook - Georg Philipp Telemann
> 
> The Wiki entry on Telemann - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_Philipp_Telemann
> 
> My thread asking for a bit of guidance, 'Is anyone wild about Telemann?'
> https://www.talkclassical.com/63550-anyone-wild-about-telemann.html#post1723282


Unfortunately, real life got in the way of my listening project (packing up and moving from our rented house in York to our new house in 'Gemtown', and unpacking at the other end).

I had, though, used the thread cited above, 'Is anyone wild about Telemann' to listen to some of the recommendations. I put some posts about my response on pages 2 & 3 of the thread.

I am going to abort the mission, or end it a little early anyway.

My opinion about Telemann beforehand, based on some desultory listening, was that he was too prolific and that I admired his ability, but was not really moved by his music. 
I felt that Telemann's music was 'worthy' but humdrum and a little boring.

I have changed my mind to some extent. 
I still find some of the cds of Table Music that we own cause me to drift off a little, but on the other hand, I have listened to some pieces that really do have *the wow factor*, and that I find moving, even *sublime*.

To finish off my project, I am listening to *Telemann's Trumpet Concertos* on YouTube. 




I love trumpet music, and at least half concur with Sidney Smith's description of heaven as *pâté de foie gras to the sound of trumpets.*. I especially love trumpet music mixed in with strings and other orchestral instruments. And Telemann's trumpet concertos are really glorious.

So, I will return to Telemann, of course, but I am ticking him off as *an able and often wonderful baroque composer* as far as my listening project is concerned, which, as I say in the OP, is to sample every one of the composers named on the Wiki short list of Baroque Composers (there are 50).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Baroque_composers

The operative word is 'sample'. I had an idea of listening to at least three hours worth of each composer, but I am now going to be even more niggardly, and try to listen to at least one hour's worth, with types of music varied as far as possible, and to post about once a week, if possible, about my response, which is, of course, merely *personal*.

*My purpose in carrying out this project?*

*1. To create a personal mind-map of the period.

2. To share my opinions with others and to engage in conversation about baroque music, get recommendations and opinions.

3. To keep baroque music alive and well in this fabulous music forum. *

The next composer for me to sample will be - 
*Johann David Heinichen*.


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## classical yorkist

Im glad you're back Ingelou. After a period away from baroque music myself I have found myself returning to it this work. I've heard a wonderful performance of Bach's Kunst Der Fugue on clavichord.


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## Ingélou

*Johann David Heinichen (1681 - 1729)*
This week's stop on the Wiki list - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Baroque_composers

I decided to listen to the recommendations posted in his composer guest thread - 
Johann David Heinichen (1681 - 1729)

His *Te Deum* - 



Spirited & elegant. I liked it, but wasn't moved by it.

His *Magnificat in A major* - 



Again, pretty & elegant.

*Dresden Concerti (1)* - Musica Antiqua Koln, 1992 - 



This at first I dismissed as 'easy listening' , but later I decided that that G Major Seibel 215 was lovely & lyrical, whilst D Major 226 I found stirring and assured - I particularly loved the blend of bowed and plucked stringed instruments.

*Dresden Concerti (2) * - 



They were beginning to grow on me. Concerto in jF Major Seibel 231 I found striking, with bold melodic lines; I also loved G Major Seibel 217.

*Sinfonia di Moritzburg* - 



A fine piece.

*Johann David Heinichen - Extracts from the opera Flavio Crispo - Il Gusto Barocco*




These songs were delightful. This was Heinichen's sole opera for Dresden, and it was never performed after a counter-tenor tore up his music and threw it at the composer's feet and court proceedings were instigated.

*Missa No 12 in D Major* - 



Gorgeous voices & harmonies - this one really got to us. Inspiriting.

So - while not singling him out specially, I'll always be glad to listen to Heinichen. 
Yet again, it shows how high a standard baroque composers generally attain.

Next Stop on my listening project (See OP) is *Rameau 
* - a Big Yin.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

Yesterday on Sirius XM's "Symphony Hall" station (a pretty amazing channel if you have the monthly payed subscription for your car), I heard a striking choral work by *Antonio Bertali *(1605-1669) called the _Missa Resurrectionis_. I'll have to see if I can hear it again, but I remember it being a lovely work that perfectly exemplified the Baroque affinity for the merging of structure and beauty.


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## Ingélou

*Rameau. Post #1*









*To kick off my posts about Rameau - the composer I've reached in my listening project (see OP) - I reproduce a personal review I wrote of his opera Dardanus, that I saw at Snape Maltings in October 2017. *

_*
Dardanus at Snape Maltings, October 2017 - English Touring Opera & The Old Street Band.

We had good seats just over a third of the way back. I was a bit worried, because I'm not a person who likes modern dress performances, but the point about Dardanus is the poignancy and irony of the situation, with the daughter of one warring ruler secretly in love with her father's enemy, while being betrothed to her father's ally. So it didn't matter - the plot was a series of 'changes in the situation', rather than a story, and the background of bare wooden boards and people dressed in black or in military uniforms was very appropriate to the situation. As well as meditations on love, the songs dealt with the cruelty of war and all the emotions of hate and revenge stirred up by it.

At the end the appearance of Venus in a white robe with shining mask was dazzling and moving - rather a pity that they threw the effect away with some comic horseplay while the orchestra, The Old Street Band, was playing the postlude. A quiet stage with some lights playing around would have been better, in my opinion.

As my fiddle teacher was playing viola in The Old Street Band I listened very carefully to the music, and especially to the cello and violas, trying to distinguish them. So I can say, hand on heart, that the music was played beautifully, with an exquisite balance and poise. Rameau's music has a lyrical elegance, though it isn't cram full of melodies like my true French Baroque favourite, Lully. Every song seems to have the same typical French-Baroque languishing phrase - but who cares. Sometimes I find Rameau's music to be *merely* elegant, but the lyrics added poignancy and tenderness - especially as sung by these voices. I thought the acting and characterisation was excellent and loved all the voices, except for the bass, which sometimes seemed a bit talky-growly, rather than tuneful.

The second half, once Dardanus is in prison, drags a little, though the twist of the plot is interesting. (One feels more could be made of it.) And it does seem a pity that Rameau couldn't bear to cut his end music, as I think it would always be a bit anticlimactic even without the daft staging ideas.

But still, it was a lovely and very enjoyable evening. *_


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## Ingélou

*Rameau* post #2

*Rameau: Les Boréades - Christie, Les Arts Florissants*






*It's different if I can watch one live, but in general, baroque operas aren't my cup of tea. The plots are too static - the principals spend too much time standing around emoting - and the songs are elegantly ornamented, but in essence just one big long languish. It's very rare that you get a good tune, let alone a real belter.

This one - I didn't take to the main soprano voices, which were rather too warbly for me. As for the staging - it was a rum do, with the opposition of grey-suited minions against a tribe of scantily-clads in white pyjamas or cream underwear. The dances were very mannered, clearly loaded with meaning, but failing to achieve much impact as far as I was concerned.

Girls in skimpy underwear danced like marionettes with the grey-suited bureaucrats, and a parade of grey-clad subjects armed with cake knives marched like automatons past a table sporting a lone wedding cake. Yes, I think I 'got' the symbolism, but if it hadn't been so portentous, I'd have laughed.

Maybe the producers were trying to make up with spectacle and coded messages what the opera lacked in narrative excitement.

I didn't 'not-enjoy' it exactly - the music was elegant and sometimes the hero or heroine's emotional plight did impinge on me - but I also felt quite glad when it was over.

Although I prefer baroque music to romantic, I prefer nineteenth century operas to baroque operas.

I was relieved to find a reviewer who was similarly underwhelmed by the message-ridden staging. *
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2004/Aug04/Rameau_Boreades.htm


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## classical yorkist

You know, if listened to a lot of Rameau but it's not really stayed with me. Listened to a lot of his harpsichord works but it just kind of washes over me. A great, and important, composer but not one that I readily 'connect' with.


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## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> You know, if listened to a lot of Rameau but it's not really stayed with me. Listened to a lot of his harpsichord works but it just kind of washes over me. A great, and important, composer but not one that I readily 'connect' with.


I think I feel the same - though as I'm now listening to his harpsichord pieces after the interminable opera, I'm enjoying them more by contrast!


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## Ingélou

*Rameau* post #3










*Rameau - une symphonie imaginaire - Les Musiciens du Louvre - Marc Kinkowski*

*Overtures etc from ballets & operas.
Bombastic in places, but bold melodies & stirring perfomances (plenty of both) really carried me along. *


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## Helgi

Hah! I stumbled upon some Rameau on YouTube right now that I really liked, and came in here thinking "I bet there's not much Rameau in the baroque thread" 

Here's what I was watching:






I've put the album in my queue. It's called L'Orchestre de Louis XV, by Jordi Savall and Le Concert des Nations.

Edit: Here's the entire suite:


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## Ingélou

*Rameau* post #4.










*Jean-Philippe Rameau: Pieces de Clavecin en Concert.
Gustav Leonhardt - Nikolaus Harmoncourc - Lars Fryden
*
*At first I thought, just run-of-the-mill elegant, but then there were some beautiful pieces, and I just loved the blend of the harpsichord with other instruments. *


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## Rogerx

Mikołaj Zieleński "Ave Maria"

It's not Telemann Ingélou but you must hear this.
( well"must" is would you be so kind)


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## Ingélou

*Rameau* post #5.

*
Jean-Philippe Rameau Complete Harpsichord Works at Castle Assas: Scott Ross
*
*To finish off, I've been listening to these three videos of Rameau's harpsichord pieces.*
















*This is what I like best of Rameau's output. It's a Torrent of Beauty - Twangly Heaven. 
I think it's the nature of solo harpsichord that it doesn't move me greatly - but it does make me aware of the possibilities of form, and there's almost a philosophical relish to listening. 
I feel transported to a realm beyond time, as if in a wintry forest of elegant rime-clad trees.*


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## Ingélou

*Rameau - final post.* (of six)

*To conclude - i think Rameau is a stylish and accomplished composer. I admire him - but he doesn't touch my heart as Lully does. However, I did love listening to his crystalline harpsichord pieces*

*The Rameau Composer Guestbook contains some more recommendations. *
Jean-Philippe Rameau

(And of course, there's always The Fab One! :kiss






*I cannot go along with the comment by PetrB of Famous Memory* :tiphat: - 
*'At least as great a composer as Bach -- at the least!'* - *though I would like to know why he thought so. *

*But still - a justly-esteemed composer, and with his book on theory, an important influence on musical development. *

My next stop will be *Johann Gottfried Walther*.


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## Ariasexta

Rameau`s harpsichord suites are among the most beautiful music humanity has ever composed, he is a colossal genius in music.


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## Ingélou

*Johann Gottfried Walther.*

https://www.talkclassical.com/64921-johann-gottfried-walther-1684-a.html#post1785304

Taggart sighed as he finished the opening post to the Walther Composer Guestbook: *'He was Bach's cousin, and he was good, but he never really got anywhere.' *

I have only been able to listen to a 'snatch' of this composer, not a true sample, as I am dependent on what I can find on YouTube - which is not much, only multiple versions of his best known work. I have posted the few videos I listened to on the Composer Guestbook.

I liked what I heard - august, or inspiriting, organ music. I would welcome a chance to hear more.

And now on to the most daunting of the composers I have yet to sample, in my project of listening to every baroque composer on the Wiki short-list. (See OP).
That's *Johann Sebastian Bach*.


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## Ingélou

*J. S. Bach.
*:angel::angel::angel::angel::angel:

*Do you have any suggestions or recommendations? If so, please post them here, or on this thread that I just started:*
https://www.talkclassical.com/65001-j-s-bach-three.html#post1785330

*Thank you. *


----------



## Dirge

Jean-Philippe RAMEAU ~ Suites for harpsichord
:: Marcelle Meyer piano [HMV '53]

I tried listening to Alexandre Tharaud's album of the Nouvelles Suites [HM '01] but found the performances to be lovely but blah, so I quickly switched over to the rightly famous old Marcelle Meyer recordings … ah, that's more like it. Meyer's playing isn't especially bold or dynamic, but it's deftly pointed and piquant and has an insidiously engaging molecular energy/inner vitality about it, and her phrasing is to the manner born. Her characterization of the programmatic pieces tends to be less overtly programmatic and more abstract than usual, as she seems averse to compromising form for the sake of, say, sounding more like a hen-the program isn't forsaken by any means, she just doesn't hit you over the head with it, content to imply/suggest rather than imitate/caricature, relying on the listener's powers of inference and imagination to flesh things out. I've heard other accounts of individual pieces that I like better than Meyer's, but in general no other pianist gets to the heart of Rameau's harpsichord pieces so consistently in my listening experience.

Premier Livre de Pièces de clavecin: Suite en la mineur (1706)




highlight: Prélude

Pièces de clavecin: Suite en mi mineur (1724)




highlight: "Tambourin"

Pièces de clavecin: Suite en ré majeur (1724)




highlight: "Les Cyclopes"

Nouvelles Suites de Pièces de clavecin: Suite en la mineur (1726-27)




highlights: Sarabande & Gavotte et doubles (this piece has six doubles, so it's like a little set of variations in disguise)

Nouvelles Suites de Pièces de clavecin: Suite en sol majeur (1726-27)




highlight: "Les Sauvages"

"La Dauphine" en sol majeur (1747)




a one-off piece from 1747


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## Dirge

Antonio VIVALDI: *Stabat Mater* in F minor for solo alto and strings w/basso continuo, RV 621 (1712)

I've been sifting through available recordings of this unusually economical/sparing/austere/simple and uncharacteristically solemn Vivaldi work and have been left with the six listed below, which I'm now giving a more thorough going-over. I generally find countertenors better suited to the work than contraltos, who tend to sound too operatic for the part, but I make an exception for Sara Mingardo simply because she has such a fascinating singing style and voice per se.

:: Bowman, Hogwood/The Academy of Ancient Music [L'Oiseau-Lyre '76]




This pioneering recording was the one to own for nearly twenty years until a rash of new recordings came out in the mid to late '90s-Gérard Lesne's recording had come out in the meanwhile but was on a very obscure label. James Bowman has one of those distinctive Old School countertenor voices that's still more or less in the Alfred Deller mold, and he gives the most innocent and unaffected performance to be had. Hogwood/AAM provides like accompaniment and the whole has an austere, unprettified beauty about it. Indeed, for its chaste and plainspoken manner, it remains the preferred recording of monks and friars the world over.

:: Lesne/Il Seminario musicale [Harmonic '88]




_Note: The nine videos/movements are in the proper order in the playlist, but several are misnamed._
Rock-singer-turned-countertenor Gérard Lesne has what is fundamentally, I think, an Old School countertenor voice, but he's evened out and polished up the tone/timbre while trading brightness for duskiness-very distinctive and interesting. He gives a relatively gentle and intimate performance that is subtly nuanced and beautifully phrased without sounding indulgent or out of context, and his bande complements him perfectly, working with him to produce a chamber music-like sense of inner dialog and give and take. While not overtly dramatic, the performance has a quiet sincerity/devoutness that you can't miss.

:: Scholl, Banchini/Ensemble 415 [HM '95]




Andreas Scholl has just the kind of strong, beautiful, bright_ish_ voice that's needed to stand up to and stand out against the relatively hearty and robust accompaniment from Chiara Banchini and her band, bringing a compelling sense of drama to the proceedings without going beyond the pale. This is a performance that manages to get your blood flowing while remaining duly pious, and if it has to trade a bit of nuance for that added drama, so be it. One annoying aspect of the production is that Scholl is placed to the far left of the soundstage, making for a disturbingly lopsided presentation.

:: Chance, Pinnock/The English Concert [Archiv '95]




Michael Chance has one of the most refined and discreetly beautiful countertenor voices to be found, and he uses it in a correspondingly refined and beautiful manner, producing what is likely the most subtly inflected and finely nuanced performance of this part on record. On the other hand, this is not a dramatic performance by singer or ensemble; indeed, it risks understatement almost throughout. Focused and attentive listeners of some breeding and sophistication may well favor this account over all others, but classical music couch potatoes of dubious ancestry will find it a bit of a snooze.

:: Blaze, King/The King's Consort [Hyperion '98]
http://www.classicalm.com/en/composition/15719/Sacred-Music-Robert-King--Kings-Consort-11CD (Vol. 5, tracks 9-17)
Robin Blaze possesses a beautifully ripe, glowing voice that's as tonally seductive as a countertenor's voice can be, and he strikes a nice balance between the pious, ear-pleasing, and dramatic aspects of the work, but his phrasing seems just a touch smoothed over, his characterization just a touch generalized-and he's a bit too forwardly balanced and prominent in the scheme of things. The sound of the King's Consort, too, seems a touch smoothed over, with the organ's sonority enveloping and obscuring some detail. On the whole, however, this is a well-conceived middle-of-the-road account that gravitates around the enchanting tone of Blaze's voice.

:: Mingardo, Alessandrini/Concerto Italiano [Opus 111 '99]




Sara Mingardo has a devilishly complex and decidedly contralto_ish_ contralto voice-she's not some over-the-hill mezzo posing as a contralto, she's the real deal-and she gives a stately, almost majestic, yet expressive and dramatic (and more than a little bit haunting) performance that is supported to the hilt by the sometimes mad and always dramatic Rinaldo Alessandrini and his usual band of cohorts. From an abstract musical perspective, this is, I think, the most compelling performance of the bunch, but when the meaning and spirit of the text is considered, it seems a _wee_ bit overwrought. As such, this would be a great choice for listeners who haven't the foggiest notion of what _Stabat Mater_ is about.

_Wrap up …
_
A _wee_ bit overwrought or not, Mingardo/Alessandrini/Concerto Italiano is my favorite recording of _Stabat Mater_ … I simply cannot _not_ listen to it when it's playing. I'm pretty sure that Mingardo is a witch or a sorceress or some such like-how else to explain her supernatural hold over me?-but I dare not report her to the Inquisition for fear that she'll turn me into a newt or, Heaven forbid, an oboist. I don't fear any of the countertenors nearly as much and would lump their recordings together as co-runners-up (co-losers for you glass-half-empty types) of roughly equal appeal. That said, reviewers and Baroque enthusiasts and _Stabat Mater_ aficionados tend to set Mingardo/Alessandrini/Concerto Italiano aside as a special case and cite one of the other recordings as a general recommendation-a reasonable approach-with Scholl/Banchini/Ensemble 415 _perhaps_ getting the lion's share of mentions.

[If you're not familiar with Vivaldi's _Stabat Mater_, be advised that composer sets only the first ten (of twenty) stanzas of the poem and that the music of movements 1, 2 & 3 is reused/repeated in movements 4, 5 & 6, and then new music is used in movements 7, 8 & 9. Setting only the first ten stanzas indicates that the work was composed as a hymn for Vespers (rather than as a sequence for a mass, which includes all of the stanzas), as was the custom at the time, but the partly strophic/mostly through-composed design is extremely unusual if not unique: hymns were typically strophic throughout, using the same music for each stanza … just like the boring hymns you typically sing at church.]


----------



## Dirge

Here's a rather sublime live performance from viola da gamba player Petr Wagner …

Marin MARAIS: *Les Voix humaines* from Pièces de viole, Livre II (1701)




 (3½ minutes)


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## Ingélou

Something to lift the spirits during lockdown, as recommended by Norwich Baroque. :tiphat:






Tarquinio Merula: Ciaconna; Hanneke van Proosdij & Elizabeth Blumenstock, Voices of Music


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## ORigel

Ingélou said:


> *J. S. Bach.
> *:angel::angel::angel::angel::angel:
> 
> *Do you have any suggestions or recommendations? If so, please post them here, or on this thread that I just started:*
> https://www.talkclassical.com/65001-j-s-bach-three.html#post1785330
> 
> *Thank you. *


BWV 825
The Art of Fugue for clavichord
BWV 1000
The St. Matthew Passion
Oboe concertos
Chromatic Fantasia and Fugue


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## StDior

I am a big admirer of Vivaldi. Unfortunately I must write some disturbing regarding his Stabat Mater.
Namely Vivaldi's Stabat Mater Dolorosa sounds very similar to me to Telemann's Rimembranza crudel aria from his Germanicus opera. It will be interesting whether it is so only for me?




or




As Telemann composed the Germanicus in 1704 (revised in 1710) and Vivaldi's Stabat Mater is from 1727, it is obvious who wrote his own composition earlier.
Against all of this, I am a great fan of Vivaldi and especially of his vocal pieces. For example maybe none of his operas are perfect but I could find 2 or 3 so wonderful arias or choral parts in almost all of his operas that I could rarely found even in the most famous romantic operas.


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## Ingélou

StDior said:


> I am a big admirer of Vivaldi. Unfortunately I must write some disturbing regarding his Stabat Mater.
> Namely Vivaldi's Stabat Mater Dolorosa sounds very similar to me to Telemann's Rimembranza crudel aria from his Germanicus opera. It will be interesting whether it is so only for me?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As Telemann composed the Germanicus in 1704 (revised in 1710) and Vivaldi's Stabat Mater is from 1727, it is obvious who wrote his own composition earlier.
> Against all of this, I am a great fan of Vivaldi and especially of his vocal pieces. For example maybe none of his operas are perfect but I could find 2 or 3 so wonderful arias or choral parts in almost all of his operas that I could rarely found even in the most famous romantic operas.


*I see what you mean. However, it doesn't necessarily mean (does it?) that Vivaldi cribbed Telemann's original piece directly. For example, there's a folia that exists among the works of several baroque composers. People then (I seem to have read) had a different attitude to reworking existing tunes & arranging and adapting was seen as more important.

However, it would be interesting to know more. I have to say, that despite the similarities, for me the Telemann aria doesn't have the dramatic oomph of Vivaldi's stabat mater. Of course that might just be me - I am a Catholic and the subject matter of the Passion never fails to move me. But the video seems a bit bland and calm to me.

Thanks for sharing this discovery. I'm interested to know what someone with more knowledge than I of musical history thinks.

PS Apologies for the big black print. My cataracts are getting worse. *


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## StDior

Ingélou said:


> *I see what you mean. However, it doesn't necessarily mean (does it?) that Vivaldi cribbed Telemann's original piece directly. For example, there's a folia that exists among the works of several baroque composers. People then (I seem to have read) had a different attitude to reworking existing tunes & arranging and adapting was seen as more important.
> *


I know composers used other composers's material more freely and frequently in the time of Baroque music. It was quite usual. Maybe some Telemann also used some other (Italian) composer's work. Both arias seem rather Italian-like than German to me. 
Just another similar example: Everybody knows Bach's Toccata and fugue in d-minor BWV 565. Here below I attached a similar (the toccata part) piece written in 1685 or earlier (according to IMSLP): 
Buxtehude: Toccata in d-minor BuxWV 155


----------



## Ingélou

Ingélou said:


> For love of the Baroque, I vow to undertake a delightful project...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you love Baroque music - you will know about that sense of connection with all the beauty in the Universe when you listen to it.
> 
> I was idly looking at the Wiki list of baroque composers:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Baroque_composers
> 
> I had never heard of the first on the list - Jacopo Peri ((1561-1633) - and at first could find no examples of his work on YouTube. Then I looked up his Wiki biography and located this link for his opera Euridice:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I started to listen - and a wonderful voice spoke to me out of the past, saying 'I was once alive, like you, and now I reach out to you from Eternity, your destination too...'
> 
> Then I thought that I haven't seen much on TC lately about the Beauties of the Baroque.
> 
> I am going to try and listen to items from the Wiki list in chronological order and write about my experiences, and I would love it if you, dear reader & Baroque-Lover, could post *your* listening experiences using composers from the list, though not necessarily in order - unless you want to.
> 
> You might also like to highlight baroque composers who have somehow not appeared on the list, if any there be.
> 
> I invite you also - or as an alternative - to post on this thread any new discoveries you have made, and/or any observations on baroque music that occur to you.
> 
> Just wondering now whether to change the thread title to Baroque Epiphanies -
> but no, *Amor Vincit Omnia*!


*I'm on to Bach at present, and what with the Lockdown, the feeling of anxiety-cum-stagnation, and the daunting aspect of a Musical Giant, I find that I just can't do much listening at present.

So instead of 'working through' organised samples of his music, I've decided to listen to bits and pieces by Bach as the mood takes me. After all, who would pay me any attention if I were to write a critique of Bach on a systematic basis? And quite right too. With me, it's all just personal response anyway.

Like most other people, I love Bach and it would be churlish in me to find fault. So my appreciation is more in the line of posting yum-yum noises.

But I'm loth to abandon this thread and my project, because it's been so enlightening to me, and the posts that people have made here on the thread have been fab. So all I can do is note what I do end up listening to of Bach's and say how I liked it, and then move on to someone more manageable - oh whoops, bad idea, the next one is D. Scarlatti! *


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## Ingélou

*John / 'Taggart' is practising this at present, ready for when his piano lessons can safely resume. 
So I hear these tunes day in, day out, and never get sick of them - Bach French Suite No. 5 is exquisite:
*





*PS - You may be wondering why I'm posting so big and bold these days - it's because of my worsening cataracts. The Lord knows when I'll get to the top of the currently suspended waiting list for an operation. *


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## Ingélou

*Who could resist this one?
The Bach double with Andrew Manze & Rachel Podger. 
Sublime. *


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## classical yorkist

This is an absolute must listen. It's simply breathtakingly brilliant. Everything that's enriching about baroque music is here.





ETA I can never remember how to embed videos


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## Ingélou

classical yorkist said:


> This is an absolute must listen. It's simply breathtakingly brilliant. Everything that's enriching about baroque music is here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Marais: La Voix de la Viole
> 
> ETA I can never remember how to embed videos


*I'm listening now - it's beautiful.* :tiphat:


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## Taggart

We found a flurry of interest in Isabella Leonard on the 400th anniversary of her birth on 6th September. I put something on her guest book but this by Rachel Podger is very nice:


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## Kjetil Heggelund

So I've widened my taste and knowledge of baroque composers again...Mariana Flores and Greta de Reyghere sing like angels and Cavalli, Barbara Strozzi, Alessandro Scarlatti and Charpentier are cool composers. I've been listening to recordings from Ricercar


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## cheregi

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> So I've widened my taste and knowledge of baroque composers again...Mariana Flores and Greta de Reyghere sing like angels and Cavalli, Barbara Strozzi, Alessandro Scarlatti and Charpentier are cool composers. I've been listening to recordings from Ricercar


I love Mariana Flores' Strozzi... I've also been enjoying the Musica Fiorita Strozzi CD with Susanne Ryden, and Musica Fiorita generally seems like a goldmine of really great recordings of underappreciated Baroque works and/or composers.


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## caracalla

cheregi said:


> a goldmine of really great recordings of underappreciated Baroque works and/or composers.


Flores and Ryden are both superb baroque sopranos. So is Nuria Rial if you're looking for further excursions off the beaten track.


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## Ingélou

"Largo ma non tanto" from the Concerto for Two violins in D Minor (BWV 1043) by J.S. Bach, performed on original instruments by the Early Music Ensemble Voices of Music. Rachel Podger & Elizabeth Blumenstock, soloists; live, 4K UHD video from our concert at the Berkeley Early Music






This is lovely, of course - serene, perfectly patterned. But - for my personal taste - too smooth.


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## Ariasexta

For some very straightforward beauty of baroqueness, you must try this:








Simple and sheerly enticing mediterranean music. It will be nice listen at times to shake off some boredom of reality.


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## Ingélou

*Bach - Brandenburg Concerto No. 4 in G major BWV 1049 - Sato | Netherlands Bach Society*






Music as beautiful and incontrovertible as a fresh summer morning - though it raises my admiration rather than touches my heart.


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## Ingélou

*Bach - Cantata Darzu ist erschienen der Sohn Gottes BWV 40 - Rademann | Netherlands Bach Society*






Gracious and grand - a great achievement, though my tastes are simpler.

The anthem sung by the whole choir at the end though - that _really_ grabs me!


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## Ingélou

KenOC's current thread on Bach is very interesting - How did Bach even do this?

I particularly like post #3, pianozach, with its so-true Adams quote:

*Douglas Adams, in his detective novel Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency, has a theory that JS Bach is actually fictional, and the music attributed to him was actually from an alien computer program aboard a spaceship in orbit around the Earth.

Adams also wrote this: "Beethoven tells you what it's like to be Beethoven and Mozart tells you what it's like to be human. Bach tells you what it's like to be the universe."*


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## Grimalkin

Baroque is one of my favorite style


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## Dirge

J. S. BACH: *Passacaglia and Fugue in C minor, BWV 582* (?1706-13?)
:: E. Power Biggs, pedal harpsichord [Columbia Masterworks '66]






This recording is from the 1966 E. Power Biggs album _Bach on the Pedal Harpsichord_, which features a robust and imposing pedal harpsichord (which is a harpsichord with a pedal-actuated sub-harpsichord to extend the low range … acting sort of like a subwoofer). The pedal harpsichord was used as an at-home practice instrument by organists, but it was also used "in concert" to at least some extent, and there are works specifically composed for it. Indeed, no less a figure than Albert Schweitzer believed that the Passacaglia and Fugue was composed for pedal harpsichord-the original manuscript is long lost, so the truth of the matter may never be known for sure.

No pedal harpsichords survive from the Baroque, so Biggs commissioned American builder John Challis to design and build one based on historical descriptions and historically informed guesswork. However historically significant the pedal harpsichord is or isn't, and however historically accurate the Challis instrument is or isn't, it makes a fascinating racket that puts the great Passacaglia and Fugue across extremely well on its own terms. The album was quite popular and influential in its day and sparked a pedal harpsichord revival of sorts. So far as I know (which isn't far), the album has never been reissued in digital format, so you'll have to make do with an LP or private digital transfer.

It's all but impossible to adequately describe the sound of the Challis pedal harpsichord, so a visit to the YouTube video linked to above is in order for anyone interested. Biggs made my favorite organ recording of the Passacaglia and Fugue on _E. Power Biggs Plays Bach in the Thomaskirche_ [Columbia Masterworks '70] (also available on ETERNA/Edel/Berlin Classics), an excellent reference for comparison …


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## Ingélou

A really interesting post as usual, Dirge - thank you!


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## Dorsetmike

There is also a more recent offering on CD by Douglas Amrine of Bach on Pedal harpsichord, including BWV 582.






Had a look on Amazon, the only 2 EPB pedal harpsichord vinyls did not include the one linked by Dirge, the Amrine CD is silly money - £48 - but MP3 only £7.99


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## Ingélou

A posting on the Norwich Baroque Facebook Page this morning:
Bach: Harpsichord Concerto No.1 in D Minor BWV 1052 (Jean Rondeau)






This is just glorious - so inspiriting.

J. S. Bach - he's like a magnificent, awe-inspiring highland landscape. I always wonder what people who deny the concept of 'genius' do when confronted with Bach. But an older folkie like myself just hasn't the listening muscles to travel very far - I find myself seeking out the smaller glens and pretty hills of his work, and avoiding things like his Passions.

Because Bach is so great, I have stalled my OP listening project for over a year.

Time to move on. Bach, I salute you, unworthy though I am.

Next up: Domenico Scarlatti.


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## Ingélou

My latest Listening Assignment (see OP) = *Domenico Scarlatti *

My verdict: He is justly esteemed as an able composer.

Here's what I listened to:





30 Exercises for Harpsichord - the only music that D. Scarlatti published in his lifetime. Well, they're technical exercises, so what can I say? Brilliant but showy, like nails pinging off a conveyor belt in a hardware factory. 

Stabat Mater:




a pleasing volume of sound but not enough tune for me, and some of the harmonies jarred.

Salve Regina:




Gracious and elegant - I enjoyed it.

Violin Sonatas:




Lovely - there are a lot of beautiful passages for harpsichord alone, but when the violin comes in, it makes it peculiarly vivid.

Keyboard Sonatas, on piano:




These are very nice, actually, but I decided after a while that I'm not really a big fan of baroque music played on the piano and decided to look for a harpsichord video.

Keyboard Sonatas on harpsichord, played by Scott Ross




As freshly coloured and patterned as a kaleidoscope. Beautiful!

Next Composer Up: Handel!!!! :angel:


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## Ingélou

*Handel* - well, he's already one of my heroes. I enjoy his work more than I enjoy Bach's, though I acknowledge that Bach's accomplishment is much greater than Handel's.
What I like about Handel is a sort of *crystalline* quality - he is clear, elegant, eloquent, lyrical, melodic, touching in a very direct way. 
I love Messiah - I remember especially my first (of two) experiences of hearing it at Norwich Cathedral. 'He was despised', 'I know that my Redeemer liveth', 'And He shall feed His flock' - they are so beautiful and never fail to move me.

I grew up playing bits and pieces from Handel, and my first feeling that there was 'something in this Classical Music' came from being given Handel's March from Scipio to practise from Eta Cohen's Violin Method Part 2 when I was twelve.

More recently, I have enjoyed listening to Handel's violin sonatas on our Andrew Manze cds. They are lovely and lyrical. When we lived in East Anglia, we did a lot of driving about and this was where we did most of our listening. Handel's Concerti Grossi carried us along in rapture too.

This time, I'm listening to pieces I have not heard before - just a few - but Handel is basically someone in my listening project to tick off. He is already one of my top five favourites in Baroque Composers.

Today, the sun is coming up on another wintry pandemic day, and I'm listening to Handel's Ode for the Birthday of Queen Anne - Eternal Source of Light Divine :angel::




Beautiful - gives me the feeling of being 'out of time' which all good baroque music gives me.

And now - Handel Ode for St Cecilia's Day HWV 76 Les Arts Florissants Paul Agnew:




I don't like the voices on here all that much, but the music is lovely. The piece where the cello leads in is just gorgeous.


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## Taplow

*Ode for the Birthday of Queen Anne* is one of my all-time favourite pieces of Handel. It is of course pure obsequious schmalz, but nonetheless absolute joyful fun! I have two recordings, my favourite being the Simon Preston on L'Oiseau Lyre (Decca), with Emma Kirkby, James Bowman et al. The chorus at the end of "Let rolling streams…" is possibly some of the most joyous and uplifting music ever written.

The Double Decca 2CD re-release (Cat no. 458 072-2) which also includes the Anthem for the Foundling Hospital, Utrecht Te Deum & Jubilate, and scenes from Alceste (conducted by Hogwood) represents outstanding value.


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## Ingélou

The next stop in my listening project is *Silvius Leopold Weiss*, of whom I'd never heard. 

There is a short but very readable guestbook on TC with some posters that I remember loomed large when I first joined the forum. I wonder how they're all doing.
https://www.talkclassical.com/36142-sylvius-leopold-weiss.html#post1974509

One remark that caught my fancy is Triplets': *'At his best he rivals Bach for interest, but there are a lot of duller valleys between the peaks. It would be good if a lutenist was to concentrate of the better works and avoid trying for a "complete" edition.'*

I also found an amusing link with samples, from Florida State University, which begins: *The most celebrated lutenist of the eighteenth century, Weiss was also probably the most prolific composer in the history of the instrument. At one point he was assaulted by a jealous violinist who attempted to bite off his thumb. *
https://guides.lib.fsu.edu/c.php?g=353115&p=2383513

I thought I'd just listen to a video of his lute music, which I'm doing. It's charming - but perhaps in the world of music appreciation, that's a pejorative remark. So I will rephrase - this is lovely music, sprigged and serene, and it appeals to the pale blue part of my psyche.

*Silvius Leopold Weiss Lute Sonatas, Robert Barto*


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## Ingélou

Next Up is *Nicola Porpora (1686-1768)* - there's a fabulous OP with samples in his TC guestbook:
Nicola Porpora
Thanks, @Meyerbeer Smith. :tiphat:

There's also a useful article with suggestions in the Florida State University 'Lesser Known Composer of the Month' Series:
https://guides.lib.fsu.edu/composerofthemonth

I am in the mood to 'polish off' this stage and am listening to the TC Guestbook Links - will go on to have a quick scour of YouTube.

There is nothing much for me to say except that I'm enjoying the rich & gracious sound of Baroque Counter-Tenor Singing - and every song is lovely.
There is just so much talent in the Baroque Era.

Porpora, you did well. :tiphat:


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## Ingélou

*Geminiani* - again, someone I have a little experience of already.

Here's his composer guestbook on TC. 
Francesco Geminiani

And his article in Wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_Geminiani

Another useful link - http://www.baroquemusic.org/biogeminiani.html

I enjoy his music. It doesn't stand out for me but it is sprightly and lovely. 
His concerti grossi are on YouTube:





and






But for me Geminiani's importance lies in his treatise The Art of Playing on the Violin. 
I was lucky enough, in 2016, to attend a violin workshop on the treatise at the Historically Informed Summer School then held at Scarborough. I love Geminiani's arrangements of Scottish songs that he uses as exemplars.

Here's the only example I could find on YouTube, though we have the set of songs on a cd, An Excess of Pleasure by the Palladian Ensemble. 
Here's Auld Bob Morrice and Sleepy Body - eighteenth century Scottish fiddle music is my favourite, and always moving.





Next up is Johann Friedrich Fasch - which begins the countdown to the end of my listening project. Only ten more to go! But it's been a very good and educative experience for me.

Not least the near-a-thousand posts of comments and recommendations put up by other TC members. Thank you. :tiphat:


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## Ariasexta

azgroup said:


> I can't get enough of the baroque keyboard....Purcell, The Fitzwilliam Virginal Book, Buxtehude, Couperin, Rameau, J.S. Bach....


Yu are one of the awakened souls of the Aquarius Age. 
Also do not forget about Johann Jacob Froberger too, my composer of oracles.


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## Ingélou

The Countdown: 

10. Johann Friedrich Fasch
9. Leonardo Vinci
8. Giuseppe Tartini
7. Pietro Locatelli
6. Johann Joachim Quantz
5. Richardo Broschi
4. Johann Adolf Hasse
3. Carlos Seixas
2. Baldassari Galuppi
1. GB Pergolesi

I recognise some of them - usually from the Baroque Sheet Music Books I used to play with my East Anglian fiddle teacher - and look forward to learning more about them.


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## Ingélou

My former fiddle teacher plays viola with La Serenissima, so I'm lifting this gorgeous YouTube video from Norwich Baroque's Facebook Page this morning.






A. VIVALDI: Violin Concerto in F major RV 292, La Serenissima


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## Ingélou

*Johann Friedrich Fasch.*

Here's his guest book on TC, though there's not as yet much in it.
https://www.talkclassical.com/24470-fasch-johann-friedrich.html#post1976409

Yet another talented composer that I'd never heard of  - but I listened and enjoyed and have now become a Faschist. 

I listened to a 'best of' compilation, and some trio sonatas:




&





Next up - Leonardo Vinci.
At this rate, I'll have finished my listening project before the New Year!


----------



## Ingélou

*Leonardo Vinci (1690-1730)*

Here's his guest book. Leonardo Vinci (1690-1730)

Here's the wiki link, from which I learned that despite joining a religious order, Vinci may have been poisoned by a jealous husband after an ill-judged affair! 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonardo_Vinci

I listened to the opera on this thread - The Lovers in the Galley. 
https://sundaybaroque.org/beautiful-music-in-difficult-times-october-20/

It had a few singable tunes and a lot of lively sung dialogue. I think I have to see operas staged in order to truly appreciate them.

Glad to have crossed another off the list, and I enjoyed listening.


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## mparta

Too many pages to see whether this has been mentioned:









I lived in Philadelphia when this came out, so it has extra musical associations but it is GREAT music, I think relatively unknown before this recording. interesting thing that I haven't pursued, but I think the NYTimes list of classical music of the year says that David Greilsamer has transcribed Chaos for solo piano. He's a pretty good player, a very good Ravel concerto in G (almost indestructible piece though).

And please tell me that half of this thread is dedicated to Rameau. Please.


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## mparta

Ingélou said:


> It was a fab evening. Here's my own twopenn'orth:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We had good seats just over a third of the way back. I was a bit worried, because I'm not a person who likes modern dress performances, but the point about Dardanus is the poignancy and irony of the situation, with the daughter of one warring ruler secretly in love with her father's enemy, while being betrothed to her father's ally. So it didn't matter - the plot was a series of 'changes in the situation', rather than a story, and the background of bare wooden boards and people dressed in black or in military uniforms was very appropriate to the situation. As well as meditations on love, the songs dealt with the cruelty of war and all the emotions of hate and revenge stirred up by it.
> 
> At the end the appearance of Venus in a white robe with shining mask was dazzling and moving - rather a pity that they threw the effect away with some comic horseplay while the orchestra, The Old Street Band, was playing the postlude. A quiet stage with some lights playing around would have been better, in my opinion.
> 
> As Jim my Fiddle Guru was playing viola in The Old Street Band I listened very carefully to the music, and especially to the cello and violas, trying to distinguish them. So I can say, hand on heart, that the music was played with a delightful balance and lyricism.
> 
> Rameau's music has a beyond-time chic to it, though it isn't cram full of melodies like my true French Baroque favourite, Lully. Every song seems to have the same typical French-Baroque languishing phrase - but who cares. Sometimes I find Rameau's music to be *merely* 'elegant', but here the lyrics added poignancy and tenderness - especially as sung by these voices. I thought the acting and characterisation was excellent and loved all the voices, except for Teucer's bass, which sometimes seemed a bit talky-growly, rather than tuneful. (But that might be me - I have some age-associated problems with hearing the lower register.)
> 
> The second half, once Dardanus is in prison, dragged a little for me, though the twist of the plot is interesting. (One feels more could be made of it.) And it does seem a pity that Rameau couldn't bear to cut his end music, as I think it would always be a bit anticlimactic even without the daft staging ideas.
> 
> But still, it was a lovely and very enjoyable evening. We even discovered a new sort of lemonade at the bar - Rose Lemonade, which tastes like iced melted-down Turkish delight and is delicious.


That Beyond Time Chic, very interesting phrase. I fell in love with Rameau from this:







which i still think is one of my favorite recordings of all time. John Aler with the "Jouisson...", wow!!

Have been lucky enough to see quite a few operas/theatre pieces in performance, especially those ASTOUNDING Les Arts Florissants costume period pieces. I have a story to tell about the Brooklyn Academy Hippolyte et Aricie, but that may be a bridge too far. Also their Les Boreades and Zoroastre, a good Hippolyte at Juilliard a couple of years ago, Zoroastre by Pichon and his band in Aix-en-Provence.

This is music that's worth traveling for, just never ending beauty and invention.

The Les Boreades video from Les Arts Florissants was a wonderful production and the Gardiner CDs are spectacular. I have to think back, the Jouisson ensemble was a segment in a movie many years ago that featured 10 or so filmed interpretations of opera scenes, the only other one I think I remember was Tristan but it was an interesting film. I'll look it up.

That movie would be Aria from 1987.

From Wickipedia:
Aria is a 1987 British anthology film produced by Don Boyd that consists of ten short films by ten different directors, each showing the director's choice of visual accompaniment to one or more operatic arias. There is little or no dialogue from the actors, with most words coming from the libretto of the operas in Italian, French, or German.

The film was entered into the 1987 Cannes Film Festival.[1]

Contents
1	Summary
1.1	Un ballo in maschera
1.2	"La vergine degli angeli" from La forza del destino
1.3	Armide
1.4	Rigoletto
1.5	"Glück, das mir verblieb" from Die tote Stadt
1.6	Abaris ou les Boréades
1.7	"Liebestod" from Tristan und Isolde
1.8	"Nessun dorma" from Turandot
1.9	"Depuis le jour" from Louise
1.10	"Vesti la giubba" from Pagliacci


----------



## Dorsetmike

John Stanley's birthday Jan 17th, start pestering local classical broadcasting stations to play some of his works (other than Trumpet voluntary)


----------



## Ingélou

*Giuseppe Tartini 1692-1770*
- someone I only knew from his Devil's Trill but who turns out to be much much more than a one-hit wonder.

I love his music - Tartini is not _tart_ but he _is_ bracing! 

His guest book on TC is here - Giussepe Tartini

Wiki is here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuse...nPSCfMJQ9cZsKu3raQH5Bwo9pGfKrpiiD3MI0kwMTmBB8

It's very interesting to read about his life - he dedicated himself to the violin only in his twenties after escaping to a Franciscan priory to avoid being prosecuted for 'abduction' after he married a cardinal's 'favourite'. After hearing Veracini play, he shut himself up to improve his technique, practising for hours.

And I suppose that's why his music sounds different from 'other' baroque - it's not just the dates, but because his music is so thoroughly violinish - the double stops in particular add a lot of intensity to his concertos. That's also why I take to Tartini - because I can hear the music being so vitally and fluidly structured to the violin. In his sonatas, I hear him taking what must be folk themes and working beautiful violinish variations on them.

The adjectives I'd choose to describe Tartini's music - fresh, vital, thrilling, melodic, lyrical, startling, intense.

This link from Hyperion calls his style *'open and luminous'* & remarks - 
*This is violin music that even its protagonists are happy to have described as real "fiddle" music, music that understands and indeed stretches the instrument from an inside-out knowledge of the instrument.*
There is a very good article at the end analysing Tartini's composition practices: 
https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/...MFsuM1RqWJrlF6InU8uj0yMNn9psPuyfvzZ-4-KD31Lr8

This is what I listened to -

Devil's Trill: terrific & never fails in its gooseflesh effect.




 - Itzhak Perlman
& 




Didone Abbandonata:
 Beautiful, though quite not as dramatic as the Devil's Trill.




 - DuoClassica's Olga Dashevskaya (piano) and Lydia Sviatlovskaya (violin)





 - David Oistrakh





 - Isaac Stern.

Violin Concertos, Volume 9 - wonderful music. 
- 




Violin Sonatas: 
 - utterly compelling; truly a singing voice.





Giuseppe Tartini Sonatas for Violin, Violoncello and Harpsichord 2/2: beautifully arranged and played; music which moves me. 





_Seven to go - next up, Locatelli. _


----------



## Dirge

Arcangelo CORELLI: Concerto grosso, Op. 6/8 in G minor "Christmas Concerto" (1680s, p. 1714)
:: Beyer/Gli Incogniti [Zig-Zag Territoires, live '12]






I'm listening to Corelli's "Christmas Concerto" on Christmas Eve-how original of me. This recording is from the complete Op. 6 by Beyer/Gli Incogniti, which is my favorite recording of the opus on the whole. Beyer/Gli Incogniti has much the same vibe as Podger/Brecon Baroque but with a few more strings; both groups are typically a degree or two too flexible and relaxed for my taste, but Gli Incogniti's Op. 6 performances have more backbone and tension than typical-perhaps owing to the live occasion-and pacing, phrasing, and instrumental balances are all to my liking, with the various continuo instruments having more or less equal presence as the ripieno strings.


----------



## Ingélou

*Locatelli (1695 - 1754)*

Wow! :tiphat:

Here's his TC guestbook:
https://www.talkclassical.com/69142-pietro-antonio-locatelli-1695-a.html#post1981385

What I listened to:

*Locatelli's Caprices for Solo Violin on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxl4...EoYwFxk1N35B4g
(Violinist = Igor Ruhadze)
Crystalline Masterpieces - I listened and wondered. (It's hard to chill in that Perfect Chill.  )*

*Locatelli Concerti Grossi - Brilliant Classics on YouTube:




Sprightly and gorgeous.*

(Next up: Johann Joachim Quantz.)


----------



## Ingélou

*Johann Joachim Quantz (1697 - 1773)*

His guestbook on TC is here, though there's not much on it; I enjoyed seeing the names of old friends, Ukko, who's left TC, and Moody now sadly gone from the planet. :tiphat:
https://www.talkclassical.com/25596-johann-joachim-quantz.html#post1982424

I listened to the Flute Concertos on YouTube - 





I am not a huge fan of the flute's sound - I prefer the clarinet, or even better, the oboe.
But I enjoyed listening, especially to the lively sections played by the whole orchestra.

Next up: Riccardo Broschi.
And we're on to the last 5 in my listening project (see OP).


----------



## Ingélou

*Riccardo Broschi (1698 - 1756)*

His TC guestbook is here:
https://www.talkclassical.com/69166-riccardo-broschi-1698-1756-a.html#post1982495

He wrote operas and arias for his brother Farinelli, a counter-tenor. I've only been able to find a few videos on YouTube (see the Guestbook), but the singing *was* gorgeous. :tiphat:

Next up: Johann Adolf Hasse


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## Dirge

J. S. BACH: Suites for cello solo, BWV 1007-1012 (c. 1720)
:: Anner Bylsma [RCA Seon '79]






Bylsma believes that Bach became intrigued by the notion of implied voices and harmonies during his work on the Sonatas & Partitas for solo violin and that the Cello Suites are in part a further exploration of that notion. In the C-minor Suite, for example, the fugue (the second half of the Prélude) has only a few chords/double-stops yet conjures up the aural illusion of simultaneous multiple voices where none exist … much as Picasso exploits the visual expectations (subliminal and not) of onlookers to trick them into mentally fleshing out the subjects and scene of _Don Quixote_, Bach exploits the aural expectations of listeners to trick them into filling in the "missing" voices and harmonies of the Suites.

In keeping with this belief, Bylsma's somewhat brusque and strongly demarcated presentation of the music artfully sets the stage for Bach's implied voices and harmonies to make them that much easier for the listener to infer. Bylsma does an admirable job of imparting a satisfying sense of flow and momentum to the proceedings considering how discrete and fragmented his phrasing is-inspired by Anna Magdalena's "discrete and fragmented" copy of the manuscript. It takes a fair bit of player ingenuity to pull off such an interpretation and make the music coalesce, and this is in large part what makes these performances so interesting. Bylsma's extremely period-sounding period cello has a raw and unvarnished complexity about it, and it sounds a bit scratchy and wiry when under attack, but it's perversely fascinating and likable for all that; he uses a slightly smaller and less "characterful" five-string violoncello piccolo for the Sixth Suite.

All this and more keeps the set lower-case hip and relevant to this day, preventing it from becoming an antiquated old relic of historical interest only; indeed, it's one of my three or four favorite sets of the Suites overall. HIP or not. Bylsma's 1992 remake for Sony Vivarte is more this and less that, with generally more moderate tempos and a wider dynamic range, and it's played on a very different instrument besides, but it's recognizably by the same cellist … even if it lacks the raw appeal and pioneering spirit of the first go-round. Still, it's a fine set in its own right that many listeners prefer.


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## Ingélou

*Johann Adolphe Hasse 1699-1783*

His guestbook on TC is here, with lots of suggestions for listening:
https://www.talkclassical.com/12337-johann-adolph-hasse.html#post1982637

Here's what I listened to, which I've also posted in the guestbook:

L'Armonica, a cantata, 1769:





Mass in D, 1751:





Mass in G Minor:





Johann Adolph Hasse (1699 1783) „Der Traum des Scipio"





Johann Adolph Hasse - Marc'Antonio & Cleopatra 1° parte





Johann Adolph Hasse: Trio Sonata in E minor No. 1 Op. 2:




I enjoyed listening but flutes aren't my favourite sound! 

As HarpsichordConcerto says in the Guestbook, *Hasse was essentially a composer for the human voice*
I am glad to have had the pleasure of listening to his vocal music, but I wouldn't single him out. For his music, the epithet I'd use is the fall-back word for eighteenth-century Baroque music - 'elegant'. I'm a Catholic so 'elegance' doesn't really do it for me - either raising the heart and mind to God, or marvelling at the beauty of the music. The Mass in G Minor didn't stir me.

Hasse's Mass in D, 1751, however, *does* have emotional impact (for me) and is really lovely. :tiphat:

HarpsichordConcerto also observes - 
*The recording industry is a bit funny: they prefer to record much more of Hasse's sacred music than his operas, which probably suggests that consumers are willing to listen to unknown Baroque sacred music than unknown opera seria as that's where the demand is.*

I am sure that's true - but when you're listening to a Mass, you do have a context, whereas listening to the music of an opera with an unfamiliar story is much more of an effort, unless you are at a performance, which must be rarer than hen's teeth. 
Apart from anything else, you can compare Hasse's treatment of the gloria, etc, with other baroque glorias that you've heard. Of the little I listened to, Hasse's sacred music pleased me more than his secular.

Next up: Carlos Seixas.


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## Listenerris

I love the baroque music, but where is to see for beginners the something about an style? Or ornament? And what can you come up with from the Baroque in your room, but too the simplest and most affordable?


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## Ingélou

Listenerris said:


> I love the baroque music, but where is to see for beginners the something about an style? Or ornament? And what can you come up with from the Baroque in your room, but too the simplest and most affordable?


I don't know - I'm a beginner too, and so I just try to learn by listening, and also by playing simpler baroque tunes on my violin with my reproduction baroque bow. 

There are plenty of threads on the baroque on Talk Classical, though, with more knowledgeable posters, and regarding ornaments etc you could ask a question in the theory section.

There's a history here - but much better that you look yourself and find what suits. Best wishes for the New Year. :tiphat:
https://courses.lumenlearning.com/m...developed new instrumental playing techniques.


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## Listenerris

Ingélou said:


> I don't know - I'm a beginner too, and so I just try to learn by listening, and also by playing simpler baroque tunes on my violin with my reproduction baroque bow.
> 
> There are plenty of threads on the baroque on Talk Classical, though, with more knowledgeable posters, and regarding ornaments etc you could ask a question in the theory section.
> 
> There's a history here - but much better that you look yourself and find what suits. Best wishes for the New Year. :tiphat:
> https://courses.lumenlearning.com/m...developed new instrumental playing techniques.


Thank you.I hope that it is help me in my search. New Year.Best wishes!


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## Ingélou

*Carlos Seixas, 1704-1742*

Someone I didn't know of - but he's a wonderful composer for keyboard. He died at the age of 38 and 90% (it seems) of his works were destroyed in a library fire in the Lisbon Earthquake of 1755.

Here's his Wiki Entry - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Seixas
&
here is his guestbook on TC - Carlos Seixas (1704 - 1742)

I've listened to the pieces on the short links in posts 2 & 3 on the Guestbook, and found them exquisite - though I don't like the ones transcribed for the guitar as much as I like the ancient keyboard versions.

In 2017, two larger videos of Seixas' work were posted on YouTube, which I'm listening to now:

Harpsichord Sonatas 1 -





& Harpsichord Sonatas 2 - 





What can I say? His music is brilliant, gorgeous, beautiful, thrilling. :tiphat:

Next up: Baldassari Galuppi


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## Ingélou

*Baldassare Galuppi (1706 - 1785) *

Wiki is here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldassare_Galuppi

His guestbook on TC is here - https://www.talkclassical.com/29846-baldassare-galuppi.html#post1984052

A link to the Florida University series Lesser Known Composer of the Month is here -
https://guides.lib.fsu.edu/c.php?g=353115&p=2383523

This is what I listened to on YouTube:

Complete Concertos for Strings, Brilliant Classics -




*Gracious, pleasant music - I don't mean to 'damn with faint praise'.*

Sonata no. 5 in C major, on piano -




*I'm not generally one for baroque keyboard music on piano, but I loved this.
*
Te Deum -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=de...N&index=7&t=0s
*Just beautiful.* :angel:

Harpsichord Concerto in C Minor:




*Dramatic - it carried me away.*

Plus an opera here - Baldassare Galuppi. "Il Filosofo di Campagna" Opera




*Lively & enjoyable, as far as I watched - it was a blurred and creaky video. 
*
Another composer I'd never heard of but who is a very worthwhile listen.

Next, and last, up: Pergolesi


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## Ingélou

*Giovanni Battista Pergolesi 1710-1736*

A tragically short life, but a wonderful legacy.










His Wiki Page: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Battista_Pergolesi

Pergolesi's Guestbook on TC: 
https://www.talkclassical.com/32394-giovanni-battista-draghi-better.html#post1984663

What I listened to on YouTube:

Stabat Mater (Nathalie Stutzmann/ Philippe Jaroussky)




Beautiful, though I don't find it as dramatic or touching as Vivaldi's.

Pergolesi ~ Violin Concerto (Pina Carmirelli & I Musici) Beautiful Classical Music:




Lovely & serene.

Magnificat in C major:




A magnificent sound - very effective.

Masterworks inc. Stabat Mater, Orfeo (I find it hard to appreciate without seeing it - some of the arias touched my heart), and La Serva Padrona, which is lively and appealing:





Sinfonias & Intermezzos:




Stirring to listen to.

*A Lovely Listen* to finish my baroque project, which I began in October 2017 & have finished 3 years and 3 months later. Since then, my mother has died - we've had a troublesome move which involved renting for six months in York before finding our lovely new home in a gem of a town nearby - we've both of us developed serious medical problems with our eyes - and of course, there's the pandemic. 

Music always helps.


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## Ingélou

*The Wiki (short) List of Baroque Composers, which I sampled for the OP Project:*

1. Jacopo Peri 
2. J. P. Sweelinck 
3. Claudio Monteverdi 
4. Gregorio Allegri 
5. Girolamo Frescobaldi 
6. Heinrich Schutz 
7. Samuel Scheidt 
8. Francesco Cavalli 
9. William Lawes 
10. Antonio Bertali

11. Giacomo Carissimi 
12. Johann Jakob Froberger 
13. Barbara Strozzi 
14. Johann Heinrich Schmelzer 
15. Jean-Henri D'Anglebert 
16. Jean-Baptiste Lully 
17. Marc Antoine Charpentieer 
18. Dieterich Buxtehude 
19. Heinrich Ignaz Franz von Biber 
20. Johann Pachelbel

21. Arcangelo Corelli 
22. Marin Marais 
23. Henry Purcell 
24. Alessandro Scarlatti 
25. Francois Couperin 
26. Antonio Caldara 
27. Johann Caspar Ferdinand Fischer 
28. Tomaso Albinoni 
29. Antonio Vivaldi 
30. Jan Dismas Zelenka

31. Georg Philipp Telemann 
32. Johann David Heinichen 
33. Jean-Philippe Rameau 
34. Johann Gottfried Walther 
35. Johann Sebastian Bach
36. Domenico Scarlatti 
37. George Frideric Handel 
38. Silvius Leopold Weiss 
39. Nicola Porpora 
40. Francesco Geminiani

41. Johann Friedrich Fasch 
42. Leonardo Vinci 
43. Giuseppe Tartini 
44. Pietro Locatelli 
45. Johann Joachim Quantz 
46. Riccardo Broschi 
47. Johann Adolf Hasse 
48. Carlos Seixas 
49. Baldassaare Galuppi 
50. G. B. Pergolesi

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I will go on posting on this thread from time to time as a way of promoting baroque music and I welcome any TC posters who want to make recommendations and comments here.

Thank you to all who have posted here so far. :tiphat:


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## Ingélou

Some *William Lawes* :angel: to begin life in 2021 after my Listening Project has finished. This video was put up on YouTube in 2019 - a lovely listen in these turbulent and shocking times.

Lawes: The New Old Albion






Here's what it says - 
*Il Caleidoscopio is a bright young early-music ensemble based in Milan, and this is their debut album, featuring not the usual fare of trio sonatas and concerti grossi from their native country but a musical journey around 17th-century England, centred on the London of Byrd and Playford, which was indeed one of the musical capitals of the world at the time.

Their international outlook reflects their membership: the Australian Lathika Vithanage (violin), Noelia Reverte Reche from Spain (viola da gamba) and Flora Papadopoulos from Greece (harp), joined here by the lutenist Michele Pasotti. They have already given concerts at the major early-music festivals in Rome, Milan, Ravenna and farther afield. *


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## Ingélou

The same group performing Corelli in the Year of Plague.
Beautiful.






Il Caleidoscopio Ensemble live at Bologna Festival 16/10/2020 Arcangelo Corelli - Sonata X op. V


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## Ingélou

*Birthday Boy - Adam Krieger*, born on 7 January 1634. And died in 1666 - a short life.

'His fame rests on his pioneering role in the development of the solo Lied'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Krieger

Here are three lieder sung by Andreas Scholl. :tiphat:






Gorgeous. :angel:


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## Ingélou

A lovely find - enjoy.

Purcell: Welcome to All the Pleasures, Z339. Parrott, Taverner Consort and Players


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## Taggart

Fascinating read - Rameau and the Western musical decline

Marking the change from multi-voice to single voice plus harmonies in music with some philosophy thrown in.


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## cheregi

Taggart said:


> Fascinating read - Rameau and the Western musical decline
> 
> Marking the change from multi-voice to single voice plus harmonies in music with some philosophy thrown in.


Fascinating indeed, and more than that, frustrating...

The idea that the shift from Renaissance modal counterpoint to Baroque tonal harmony is connected to a negative reorientation of the Western psyche has been advanced, compellingly, by many others (Rebecca Stewart, Susan McClary, Todd McCombs, etc.), and I am largely sympathetic to the idea. However, this writer seems committed to applying that idea in a self-serving and ahistorical way, constructing a narrative in which Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin(??), and presumably any other composer he likes stand as the forces of contrapuntal uprightness against Rameau's tonality. Even Bach's counterpoint was heavily indebted to the emerging tonality, regardless of his affection for Palestrina, and it really shouldn't even need to be said that placing those other three composers in a lineage with Bach and NOT Rameau is just absurd.

The thing which really compelled me to write out this response, though, was the writer's insistence on using this tortured narrative to decry the 'degeneracy' of modern music and the 'decline of our western culture'... the thing is, if he had actually followed his own logic in good faith, he actually would have found himself with an argument for throwing out Mozart, Beethoven, and Chopin in favor of Josquin and Ockeghem! Not that this is where I stand, to be clear. On the whole it seems obvious that this writer simply dislikes the sound of pop, rock, and Berlioz (his three 'bad' examples), and/or recent cultural trends, and constructed this pseudo-historical narrative to justify the 'objectivity' of his feelings.


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## Ingélou

cheregi said:


> Fascinating indeed, and more than that, frustrating...
> 
> The idea that the shift from Renaissance modal counterpoint to Baroque tonal harmony is connected to a negative reorientation of the Western psyche has been advanced, compellingly, by many others (Rebecca Stewart, Susan McClary, Todd McCombs, etc.), and I am largely sympathetic to the idea. However, this writer seems committed to applying that idea in a self-serving and ahistorical way, constructing a narrative in which Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin(??), and presumably any other composer he likes stand as the forces of contrapuntal uprightness against Rameau's tonality. Even Bach's counterpoint was heavily indebted to the emerging tonality, regardless of his affection for Palestrina, and it really shouldn't even need to be said that placing those other three composers in a lineage with Bach and NOT Rameau is just absurd.
> 
> The thing which really compelled me to write out this response, though, was the writer's insistence on using this tortured narrative to decry the 'degeneracy' of modern music and the 'decline of our western culture'... the thing is, if he had actually followed his own logic in good faith, he actually would have found himself with an argument for throwing out Mozart, Beethoven, and Chopin in favor of Josquin and Ockeghem! Not that this is where I stand, to be clear. On the whole it seems obvious that this writer simply dislikes the sound of pop, rock, and Berlioz (his three 'bad' examples), and/or recent cultural trends, and constructed this pseudo-historical narrative to justify the 'objectivity' of his feelings.


I see that in some of your other posts you say you're new to classical music and the canon - in that case, *wow*! 

Will be interesting to get the input of other readers, too, if there's anyone out there. 
(The thread seems to have languished somewhat of late.)

Thanks for posting. :tiphat:


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## kuniklo

Didn't Glenn Gould make similar arguments - that the end of polyphony marked a permanent decline in the quality of Western music?


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## cheregi

kuniklo said:


> Didn't Glenn Gould make similar arguments - that the end of polyphony marked a permanent decline in the quality of Western music?


Interesting! If so, that would make this idea older and more widespread than I had believed.



Ingélou said:


> I see that in some of your other posts you say you're new to classical music and the canon - in that case, *wow*!
> 
> Will be interesting to get the input of other readers, too, if there's anyone out there.
> (The thread seems to have languished somewhat of late.)
> 
> Thanks for posting. :tiphat:


Thank you! The thing is, while I have undertakens some rather intensive amateur research into Renaissance polyphony and its transition into the Baroque, my knowledge of the canonical common-practice greats is sorely lacking by comparison.

Anyway, just to further general Baroque discussion here - here's a gorgeous song by pioneering monodist Barbara Strozzi that has been stuck in my head for the last several days:






I've been really enjoying Strozzi recordings lately - she wrote a variety of solo arias and cantatas but no operas, which suits my tastes perfectly; she actually wrote for her own voice, unlike most monodists, which I think shows through in the fluidity and gracefulness of her melodic lines; and, like Gesualdo before her, she was independently wealthy enough to explore unprepared dissonances and other less-than-popular ideas at her leisure, rather than catering to the tastes of potential employers.


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## Ingélou

Thank you. Barbara Strozzi is a favourite of mine, & I am also fond of bizarrie armoniche (we love their Biber Rosary Sonatas) - although the song you post is a little shapeless for me.

Why not post some recommendations in her guest book? :tiphat:
Barbara Strozzi c.1619 - 1677


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## Ingélou

I was just recalling this French song of c. 1750 yesterday - it's beautifully performed by Le Poeme Harmonique. I love it, but the story is so sad that I can hardly bear to listen to it.






I did not realise that Edith Piaf had sung her more modern-sounding version. I don't like it, but can't help adoring the sound of Edith Piaf's voice.


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## Ingélou

If heaven is 'pâté de foie gras to the sound of trumpets' (Sidney Smith), then this video is heaven come early. 






*English Baroque Music for Trumpet & Organ (Michel Rondeau)*

Jeremiah Clarke:
1. Trumpet Tune (0:00)

William Boyce: 
2. Voluntary No. 1 (3:58)

John Stanley: 
3. Voluntary Op. 7 No. 5 (6:41)

Henry Purcell
4. The Libertine, Z.600 - Song: "Nymphs and Shepherds" (9:45)
5. The Queen's Dolour, Z.670 (12:23)
Suite in C Major
6. I. Marche Z.631, No.5 (14:57)
7. II. Marche - Prelude (16:45)
8. III. Marche Z.631, No.5 (17:39)
9. Trumpet Sonata in D major, Z.850 - I. Pomposo (18:30)
10. Suite in D Major, III. Cebell (20:27)

Robert Valentine
Recorder Sonata Op. 2 No. 12
11. I. Grave (23:36)
12. II. Allegro (25:55)
13, III. Andante (27:02)
14. IV. Allegro (28:48)

Trio Sonata in D Minor
15. I. Adagio (30:17)
16. II. Allegro (32:40)
17. III. Adagio (34:19)
18. IV. Allegro (36:13)

Jeremiah Clarke
19. The Prince of Denmark's March (38:49)

20. End Titles(Reprise) Trumpet Tune by Jeremiah Clarke (41:37)


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## Ingélou

I just saw this on YouTube and it's so heart-stirring - tragic - plangent - ravishing. 
Lovely to see a baroque violinist at work too:






PANDOLFI MEALLI La Vinciolina - Christi Park and New Trinity Baroque

This music makes me wish that I hadn't given up the violin at age 14 - but then, this just wasn't the sort of music that I'd have got to play in those days. 
Thanks to my fiddle teacher in East Anglia who alerted me to Pandolfi Mealli and the joys of the baroque bow.


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## Ingélou

Documentary on Baroque Dance - for reference:





I found it rather generalised and slow, but enjoyed the dance demonstrations.


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## Ingélou

What style! Lovely lively video - cheers me up! 






Marco Uccellini: La Bergamasca; Voices of Music with Elizabeth Blumenstock & Alana Youssefian 4K UHD


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## cheregi

Ingélou said:


> Thank you. Barbara Strozzi is a favourite of mine, & I am also fond of bizarrie armoniche (we love their Biber Rosary Sonatas) - although the song you post is a little shapeless for me.
> 
> Why not post some recommendations in her guest book? :tiphat:
> Barbara Strozzi c.1619 - 1677


Good idea, done!

I do agree that the song sort of loses steam as it goes on...

It seems like you have done a pretty thorough survey of Strozzi recordings - have you heard the Musica Fiorita CD with Susanna Ryden? If so, I would be very curious to know what you thought about it, and how it compares to other options.


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## Ingélou

cheregi said:


> Good idea, done!
> 
> I do agree that the song sort of loses steam as it goes on...
> 
> It seems like you have done a pretty thorough survey of Strozzi recordings - have you heard the Musica Fiorita CD with Susanna Ryden? If so, I would be very curious to know what you thought about it, and how it compares to other options.


I haven't. Sorry.


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## Ingélou

A lovely hello to Sunday morning - Muffat's Violin Sonata


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## Ingélou

Oh - look what Google provided - Muffat's observations on bowing. It may not interest all that many people, but it interests me!


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## Ingélou

The difference between baroque and modern violins.
I was lucky enough to be taught by an HIP performer on the violin and viola.
Ave, Fiddle Guru!


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## Ingélou

A nice little video about Elisabeth Jacquet de la Guerre, in the year of the pandemic.


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## Ingélou

Elisabeth Jacquet de la Guerre Sonata in D minor for Violin and Continuo performed by House of Time.

Beautiful!


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## Ingélou

While we're on women composers, here's an article on Francesca Caccini - I listened to what there was of hers on YouTube just after I began my project. 
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smar...y-musical-genius-youve-never-heard-180964884/


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## Ingélou

There's so much even of 'major stuff' that I don't know and haven't listened to. Here is the glorious Georg Friedrich Händel Dixit Dominus ~ Psalm 110. 





Actually, it's a comfort to know that even though I've finished my Wiki short list listening project, I will _never_ exhaust the joys of listening to Baroque, and that I _wouldn't hav_e, even if I hadn't waited till I was over 60 to cotton on to this wonderful music.


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## Ingélou

So - what have I got out of the Listening Project?

A lot of pleasure listening.

Much more knowledge of names, and being able to put them into context.

A growing inner appreciation and feeling for the baroque style.

But - the realisation that I haven't even scraped the surface. I have never pretended to know a lot about music, and I still don't. However, TC isn't just for the cognoscenti so I don't let that put me off.

As a direct result of my project, a lot of new Composer Guestbooks were added to TC, mostly by Taggart. 
And indirectly, when Dorsetmike :tiphat: became a member of TC, he posted on this thread in his first week and then came up with his idea of starting his thread Baroque on YouTube.
Baroque on Youtube

In the early stages in particular, this thread has inspired a lot of great posts - comments - recommendations - and debates. I loved that - found it all very stimulating.

Thank you to all those people. I'd like to single out Mandryka, Classical Yorkist, Dirge & Taggart. 
Thank you to everybody though! :tiphat:


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## Ingélou

I don't have any one favourite, but this is very dear to me, probably because it's the first baroque piece I ever knew - it was something loved & talked about in my non-classical-music family in York in the 1950s.

Jeremiah Clarke, Prince of Denmark's March.


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## Ingélou

These are the non-list composers that I listened to, on the recommendations of others:

Giulio Cacchini #24
Francesca Cacchini #25 #29 #41
Henry Lawes #393 #399 #400 #401 #402
John Jenkins #403
John Ward #408
Kerll #477
Uccellini #474
Elisabeth Jacquet de la Guerre #490 #491 #493
Georg Muffat #184 #189 #225 #660
Jean-Fery Rebel #661
Antoine Forqueray #709
Giovanni Gabrieli #728
Pandolfi Mealli #743


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## Ingélou

Post #1200 - The posts index of my 'stations' on the Wiki Short List of Baroque Composers:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Baroque_composers

1. Jacopo Peri #7
2. J. P. Sweelinck #s 44; 59; 103 
3. Claudio Monteverdi #s 134; 146; 181; 248; 271
4. Gregorio Allegri #s 249; 251; 257
5. Girolamo Frescobaldi #326
6. Heinrich Schutz #s 327; 329; 330; 343
7. Samuel Scheidt #363
8. Francesco Cavalli #s 364; 366
9. William Lawes #s 367; 374; 386; 390
10. Antonio Bertali #s 406; 410; 416; 417
11. Giacomo Carissimi #s 422; 425; 426; 428; 431; 432; 434
12. Johann Jakob Froberger #s 435; 438; 439; 447; 448
13. Barbara Strozzi #s 459; 463; 466
14. Johann Heinrich Schmelzer #s 467-470
15. Jean-Henri D'Anglebert #472
16. Jean-Baptiste Lully #473
17. Marc Antoine Charpentier #s 476; 486; 487; 489 
18. Dieterich Buxtehude #s 494-496; 507-8; 511
19. Heinrich Ignaz Franz von Biber #s 512; 523-525
20. Johann Pachelbel #s 541; 575; 588; 597
21. Arcangelo Corelli #s 600; 609
22. Marin Marais #63
23. Henry Purcell #s 733; 753
24. Alessandro Scarlatti #773
25. Francois Couperin #s 845; 848

26. Antonio Caldara #s 892; 914
27. Johann Caspar Ferdinand Fischer #s 938; 956
28. Tomaso Albinoni #s 957; 961; 965; 1007-8
29. Antonio Vivaldi #s 1043; 1047; 1049-1053; 1063
30. Jan Dismas Zelenka #s 1059; 1062; 1085
31. Georg Philipp Telemann #s 1086-1089; 1101
32. Johann David Heinichen #1103
33. Jean-Philippe Rameau #s 1105-6; 1109; 1111; 1113-4; 1118
34. Johann Gottfried Walther #1116
35. Johann Sebastian Bach #s 1126; 1135; 1137-9; 1141; 1143-4
36. Domenico Scarlatti #s 1066; 1145
37. George Frideric Handel #1146
38. Silvius Leopold Weiss #1148
39. Nicola Porpora #1149
40. Francesco Geminiani #1150
41. Johann Friedrich Fasch #1154
42. Leonardo Vinci #1155
43. Giuseppe Tartini #1159
44. Pietro Locatelli #1161
45. Johann Joachim Quantz #1162 
46. Riccardo Broschi #1163
47. Johann Adolf Hasse #1165
48. Carlos Seixas #1169
49. Baldassaare Galuppi #1170 
50. G. B. Pergolesi #1171

Previous index posts - #s 684 & 754; #1021 - my view on the Baroque Label.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It's been fabulous!


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## Taggart

Thread closed at the request of the OP.


----------

