# taking a break from the burden - a manifesto



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I think I've been trying too hard to complete my classical music education asap, so that I wouldn't be embarrassed by what I don't know. I've bought too many recordings too fast, without giving myself the chance to love many of them. I can only think about what I don't have yet.

I used to love the music, the fun of hearing something new, getting to know it, and I didn't care what other people thought of my ignorance. It was more fun then. 

I know there's a lot more great music out there than I've heard so far, but you have to give me time. I'm sick of trying to keep up with it all. 

I don't need to compare and contrast ten different recordings of Beethoven's symphonies, let alone of Chopin's ballads, let alone of something by Boulez. I don't need to know every single Haydn symphony and string quartet; I don't need to know everything Arensky or Borodin or Chausson or Dohnanyi or Elgar or Faure or Ginastera or whoever wrote. 

Absolutely sick and tired. I'm doing it for fun from now on and screw the pretentious snobs who are going to look down on me for it. Something must be wrong with people who've got to go around scorning people who haven't heard Bruckner's 2nd symphony or Mendelssohn's Elijah or Berlioz's Nuits d'ete. 

I'm not saying I'll never listen to those things - I'm saying I haven't yet. And **** it, I'm 34 years old - I haven't had time! I have a real job. I have a wife and nieces and in-laws and brothers and friends who want some of my time, and there are books to read and films to see and walks in the park to be taken, and I'm tired of having music turned into some kind of burden.

So people can flaunt their superiority. I grant you, I am inadequate. My tastes are limited, and I generally suck. 

I am ignorant, I am proud of my ignorance, and I intend to die ignorant.

Now leave me alone. 

It is too bad we live under a modern state and we can't get away with hitting people with sticks anymore. I swear, I'm going to harm someone someday. Maybe in prison there'll be more time.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Good for you!


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

emiellucifuge said:


> Good for you!


I agree. Life is too short to think the way everyone else wants you to think.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I don't mean anything I just said there. Of course we have a responsibility to educate ourselves. Ignorance is immoral; the intentional embrace of ignorance should be a capital crime. The inability to sufficienly praise the works in the canon is inexcusable. 

So I am ashamed. I also haven't read Moby Dick or The Tin Drum or Midnight's Children or the collected stories of Chekhov. I haven't seen Metropolis or The Maltese Falcon. I haven't tried every beer produced in Germany, and I don't know about Italian wines or Chinese poets and I can't dance a tango and I don't know why Mondrian's art is so great. I barely know anything about Byzantine theology or Hindu philosophy, and I've never been able to understand some things in chemistry. I never learned multivariable calculus or Russian, and I can't tell you what Milton Friedman is supposed to have contributed to economics. 

I admit, I have no rights to most of my opinions. 

The burden of human knowledge and culture is too great. We have done too much, and we cannot keep up with ourselves anymore.

I should just watch more TV. God knows, pretty soon it'll be some kind of shame not to know the names of Bart's principal or Andy's deputy or bald guy on Seinfeld. 

I don't know enough about R&B music. 

I hate all this crap. It was supposed to be fun.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I don't know. I can't make up my mind one way or the other. 

But definitely time for a break at least.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

science said:


> II'm doing it for fun from now on and screw the pretentious snobs who are going to look down on me for it. Something must be wrong with people who've got to go around scorning people who haven't heard Bruckner's 2nd symphony or Mendelssohn's Elijah or Berlioz's Nuits d'ete.


There's surely no sensible reason to do it other than for fun, is there? (I use the term fun in its widest sense, to include, for example, music that moves one to tears). And you're right, there_ is_ something wrong with people who scorn others for not having heard X or Y.

Have you been talking to people like that? Why pay them any attention? How can they possibly know what _you_ should or shouldn't be listening to? Last time I looked, listening to music wasn't some sort of contest.

Anyway, I hope you can steer your way through this bad patch.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Elgarian said:


> There's surely no sensible reason to do it other than for fun, is there? (I use the term fun in its widest sense, to include, for example, music that moves one to tears). And you're right, there_ is_ something wrong with people who scorn others for not having heard X or Y.


And those who've heard X and Y probably haven't heard V or W. Unless one lives to reach the age of 500 it's impossible to have heard everything that's worth hearing.


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## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

science said:


> I should just watch more TV. God knows, pretty soon it'll be some kind of shame not to know the names of Bart's principal.


Seymour Skinner, you uncouth plebeian.

*flaunts superiority*


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

A truly cromulent reply.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Seriously, take your time. I have been listening to classical music on a regular basis for over 15 years in total, and I am still exploring new horizons.


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## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

Art Rock said:


> A truly cromulent reply.


Your insight has embiggened my horizons.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Argus said:


> Your insight has embiggened my horizons.


Ha! Jebediah Springfield couldn't have said it better.


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## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

Good on you, science. I agree with everything you say.

Kind of reminds me of how I felt a couple years, when a now-deceased member who bought at least 100 dollars worth of CDs each week would try to shove down everyone's throat all the "great new music" he was hearing, and as a result, a lot of us got caught up in this buying craze as well. But one day, after receiving an Amazon order of CDs in the mail and updating everyone on my new purchases in the "Latest Purchases" thread, I stopped and thought to myself... _why_ was I buying these CDs? Didn't I find it strange that the first thing I did when I received the CD order was go on Talk Classical and post in "Latest Purchases" as if _that_ was really what they meant to me? This is when I realized that what I really loved had been twisted... what had started out as simply a love for music and exploring music had now changed to the elitist attitude of loving to flaunt _what_ I love in order to gain some sort of self-meaning among a group of people or even worse, in my daily life in general. And this was when I began to cut down my posting on Talk Classical significantly (never stopped visiting TC though, as there is no need to go to the other extreme either) and also my purchases on CDs to the point that I currently only buy a handful of CDs each year. This has allowed me to develop an intimacy with my collection and the music I love that I've never had before, and frankly, I'm loving it.

Once it doesn't seem fun any more, then you know what you're doing is wrong. And music is ultimately about appreciation and what we ourselves are able to get out of it.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Air said:


> Once what you do doesn't seem fun any more, then you know what you're doing is wrong. And music is ultimately about appreciation and what we ourselves are able to get out of it.


Some really good points in this thread. I quite agree with this one, and I've found this also true for my classical music _playing_. Between trying to practice three hours a day on guitar, simultaneously learning piano and tonal harmony while working my full time job, has really killed a lot of the joy in it for me. I've come to the conclusion that I live in different times than the composers of old. I no longer try to hold myself up to those standards. I just try and _enjoy _music now, and take it at my own pace. This has been helpful for me. Too much work makes life dull, and lacking in many of the experiences that lead to creative expression imo.

As far as trying to know everything about art/music etc. I've abandoned those ideas a long time ago too. I just try and take in what I can and enjoy myself in the process. Going wherever my intuition guides me. The subjects a person is naturally interested will be the easiest to learn in. I find not knowing 'enough' in a particular subject is only problematic when trying to be a 'know it all'. In other words by simply coming across as a person eager to learn more so than somebody who already knows everything - is virtually never problematic in interacting with others and the world around us.


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## Rasa (Apr 23, 2009)

So basically you're tired of trying to become a music snob?


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## karenpat (Jan 16, 2009)

I hear you!!! I feel a little like that sometimes too and I definitely feel like that in terms of my art history studies. "Subjective experience" has become a kind of bad term in some fields, I think - it makes me feel ashamed of being interested in a work just because I _like_ it. I think it's important to not get swallowed up in it all. Good luck!:tiphat:


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## Chris (Jun 1, 2010)

science said:


> So I am ashamed. I also haven't read Moby Dick or The Tin Drum or Midnight's Children or the collected stories of Chekhov. I haven't seen Metropolis or The Maltese Falcon. I haven't tried every beer produced in Germany, and I don't know about Italian wines or Chinese poets and I can't dance a tango and I don't know why Mondrian's art is so great. I barely know anything about Byzantine theology or Hindu philosophy, and I've never been able to understand some things in chemistry. I never learned multivariable calculus or Russian, and I can't tell you what Milton Friedman is supposed to have contributed to economics.


I believe the expression is 'choice fatigue'...no, your case is different. You sound very like a friend I was at university with in the seventies. He has never married and spends his life reading and studying. his house looks like a public library and he has read most of his books. Last time he visited me he brought a Calvin Bible commentary and hardly had his nose out of it. He had bought all 22 (big) volumes and was reading the entire set end to end. He has accumulated at least nine degrees including at least one PhD. Most of them are in maths. He is a hospital pharmacist and using his maths has made himself an authority (I promise I'm not making this up) on bandage rupture. That is, the mathematics of what happens when you pull each end of a bandage until it breaks. Despite all this, he bemoans his own ignorance and says he feels ashamed of his lack of education.

The conclusion....you are right to take a break :tiphat:


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

science said:


> I know there's a lot more great music out there than I've heard so far, but you have to give me time. I'm sick of trying to keep up with it all.
> 
> Absolutely sick and tired. I'm doing it for fun from now on and screw the pretentious snobs who are going to look down on me for it. Something must be wrong with people who've got to go around scorning people who haven't heard Bruckner's 2nd symphony or Mendelssohn's Elijah or Berlioz's Nuits d'ete.
> 
> ...


I agree with your conclusion, and it appears so do the others who have posted in this thread. Compared to many here I am rather ignorant of classical music (almost profoundly so for modern music). That was the reason for me to begin posting here. I wanted to learn from others who did know much more than I.

One question (or perhaps concern) I have is - are the "you" and "people" you refer to in your post people on TC, people you know, or your previous feeling of what you should know?


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

science said:


> I think I've been trying too hard to complete my classical music education asap, so that I wouldn't be embarrassed by what I don't know. I've bought too many recordings too fast, without giving myself the chance to love many of them. I can only think about what I don't have yet.
> 
> I used to love the music, the fun of hearing something new, getting to know it, and I didn't care what other people thought of my ignorance. It was more fun then.
> 
> ...


You wrote you are 34 years old. Well, here's how I see it. There is a high probability that you will live for another 34 years, at least. In each of the next 34 years, let's assume you listen to three Haydn symphonies per year, that equates to 102, which is nearly all of Haydn's symphonies; three operas a year, that again equates to 102 operas; and read three classic novels a year, again equating to 102 novels. Get the drift? Point is you have a lifetime of exploration before you to explore. Most folks will probably float through their lives without experiencing anywhere near 100 operas, or 100 symphonies or 100 classic novels. But have read hundreds of coffee table magazines, innumerable hours of "reality TV" and other frivolities we have today. We don't call them ignorant, do we? Of course not ...

:tiphat:

P.S. If you found my advice useful, please kindly forward me a cheque of USD300. (That took me about five minutes; you know, usual rates apply these days).


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Air said:


> Good on you, science. I agree with everything you say.
> 
> Kind of reminds me of how I felt a couple years, when a now-deceased member who bought at least 100 dollars worth of CDs each week would try to shove down everyone's throat all the "great new music" he was hearing, and as a result, a lot of us got caught up in this buying craze as well. But one day, after receiving an Amazon order of CDs in the mail and updating everyone on my new purchases in the "Latest Purchases" thread, I stopped and thought to myself... _why_ was I buying these CDs? Didn't I find it strange that the first thing I did when I received the CD order was go on Talk Classical and post in "Latest Purchases" as if _that_ was really what they meant to me? This is when I realized that what I really loved had been twisted... what had started out as simply a love for music and exploring music had now changed to the elitist attitude of loving to flaunt _what_ I love in order to gain some sort of self-meaning among a group of people or even worse, in my daily life in general. And this was when I began to cut down my posting on Talk Classical significantly (never stopped visiting TC though, as there is no need to go to the other extreme either) and also my purchases on CDs to the point that I currently only buy a handful of CDs each year. This has allowed me to develop an intimacy with my collection and the music I love that I've never had before, and frankly, I'm loving it.
> 
> Once it doesn't seem fun any more, then you know what you're doing is wrong. And music is ultimately about appreciation and what we ourselves are able to get out of it.


Great post.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> You wrote you are 34 years old. Well, here's how I see it. There is a high probability that you will live for another 34 years, at least. In each of the next 34 years, let's assume you listen to three Haydn symphonies per year, that equates to 102, which is nearly all of Haydn's symphonies; three operas a year, that again equates to 102 operas; and read three classic novels a year, again equating to 102 novels. Get the drift? Point is you have a lifetime of exploration before you to explore. Most folks will probably float through their lives without experiencing anywhere near 100 operas, or 100 symphonies or 100 classic novels. But have read hundreds of coffee table magazines, innumerable hours of "reality TV" and other frivolities we have today. We don't call them ignorant, do we? Of course not ...
> 
> :tiphat:
> 
> P.S. If you found my advice useful, please kindly forward me a cheque of USD300. (That took me about five minutes; you know, usual rates apply these days).


Your advice is helpful, but given the price, I'll not take it!


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I've been listening to classical since the late 1960's and only just today Wagner's _Tristan and Isolde_ came in the mail from Netflix. This will be only the 4th opera I've seen or heard (if you count the Ring cycle as one and don't count Mozart's "The Magic Flute," which I don't because I couldn't finish it and it includes more speaking than music and so seems little more than sort of a proto-Broadway musical to me.  )

So I'm still learning -- a lot. It's the learning that is the most fun for me, but you don't need to do it quickly. Savor it! And enjoy what you already know too.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Weston said:


> I've been listening to classical since the late 1960's and only just today Wagner's _Tristan and Isolde_ came in the mail from Netflix. This will be only the 4th opera I've seen or heard (if you count the Ring cycle as one and don't count Mozart's "The Magic Flute," which I don't because I couldn't finish it and it includes more speaking than music and so seems little more than sort of a proto-Broadway musical to me.  )
> 
> So I'm still learning -- a lot. It's the learning that is the most fun for me, but you don't need to do it quickly. Savor it! And enjoy what you already know too.


The Magic Flute is Singspiel, not exactly opera - more akin to operetta. But its high quality in my opinion puts it way above the idea that it is a proto-Broadway musical.

Tristan und Isolde is spectacular. I hope the Netflix version you got is a good one. If you happen to not like it, I'd suggest that you try this one which is not carried by Netflix but is the most recommended one according to our members:


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I agree with the sentiments of the OP science & Air as well.

Basically I go by the philosophy of *"less is more." *I'm an all-rounder rather than a specialist. I aim to have a good general knowledge of the repertoire, or at least those bits that interest me. It's true, classical music should be about enjoyment rather than like a competition. & yes, there's a life out there in the "real world" to be had.

I also started cutting down on the number of cd's I buy in the past 3-6 months. I buy less, but I try to properly absorb what I buy. If I can't absorb with & engage fully with the music, then there is no point in it for me. I'd rather listen to a handful of the music of a composer rather than ALL of their works. Eg. from Carter I have a number of discs of his solo piano, chamber and orchestral music. I think that one can gain a good understanding & appreciation of classical music of many eras and styles without owning thousands of cd's. It's an issue of quality over quantity. I absolutely loathe big boxed sets, I basically think they are rubbish.

Some of the money I've saved from not buying cd's I've used to go to live concerts. Often I go with a friend, so it's also a social thing. I'm also just tuning into non-classical radio here in Sydney, and listening to a whole variety of interesting music like techno, alternative rock & pop, dubstep, electronica, roots, etc. After a heavy day, I'm not always in the mood to listen to something classical and start "analysing" the music, which I have a habit to do. This is also why I've turned towards some of the lighter music like Milhaud & Piazzolla recently. My local library system, the City of Sydney Library, also has hundreds if not thousands of classical cd's, and I have been recently borrowing some of these.

For me it all comes down to enjoyment & engagement with the music. There are much more knowledgeable classical music listeners out there than me, especially on another internet forum I visit. Some have upwards of 10,000 discs (I'm not joking). But it seems to me that the more one goes down that path, it's not particularly healthy. Some of these people have these very black & white, ideological, dogmatic ways of thinking which I think is much worse than ignorance in itself. I'm also not interested in just sitting in front of the stereo at home & listening to cd's. Often, I'd rather be out doing other things & I have another hobby/pursuit which I'm heavily involved in & takes up a significant amount of my time. & unlike listening to recorded music, it actually involves other people.

So I think variety is the thing, not only in terms of one's classical listening, but also in terms of life in the broader sense...


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Andre said:


> I agree with the sentiments of the OP science & Air as well.
> 
> Basically I go by the philosophy of *"less is more." *I'm an all-rounder rather than a specialist. I aim to have a good general knowledge of the repertoire, or at least those bits that interest me. It's true, classical music should be about enjoyment rather than like a competition. & yes, there's a life out there in the "real world" to be had.
> 
> ...


What Andre was essentially saying above was _everything in moderation_.

I am generally also skeptical of those huge box-sets, a big collection of a specific oeuvre performed by many different perfomers over a rather long period of time, cobbled together by the record label and sold at deep discounts. I don't have any of those. But I do have box-sets of a specific perfomer/ensemble who set out to record the complete oeuvre of a composer's particular genre.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> What Andre was essentially saying above was _everything in moderation_.


Yep, you nailed it right on the head. I think we've all felt "music overload" at some stage of our listening lives. Often, it is good to simply step back & take a breather. I made (a now outdated!) catalogue of my cd's last year, which I posted on this site. In the process of doing that, I came across many things that I hadn't listened to in a long time & I thought "geez, I have some pretty good stuff." I think it's a good idea, as science said, to know what you already have in a deeper way rather than constantly acquiring new stuff week in week out.



> I am generally also skeptical of those huge box-sets, a big collection of a specific oeuvre performed by many different perfomers over a rather long period of time, cobbled together by the record label and sold at deep discounts. I don't have any of those. But I do have box-sets of a specific perfomer/ensemble who set out to record the complete oeuvre of a composer's particular genre.


Yes, I can understand that some boxed sets are better than others. The biggest boxed sets I own are 3 cd sets (I'm not sure if you'd even call those proper boxed sets?). One is Villa-Lobos' Bachianas Brasileiras and the other is Beethoven's late string quartets. So yes, they do serve a purpose, but when they consist of say a dozen or so discs, my eyes glaze over at even contemplating something of that magnitude. Maybe I have a short attention span and get easily bored at listening to the same types of works by a certain composer or composers?...


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I haven't listened to a CD in several years; once it's on the computer/ipod there is no need to listen to an entire album, let alone an entire boxed set at once. 

I've been re-organizing my itunes over the past few months, so that albums are increasingly irrelevant to me.

But I understand the spirit of the anti-boz-set sentiment. I have big boxes of Mozart and Beethoven that I will probably never finish, though I do refer to them sometimes. 

At best you've got to be selective with box sets. I was considering the "Boulez Conducts Stravinsky" box recently, but I really only wanted 2 disks from it, so I didn't get it.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

mmsbls said:


> One question (or perhaps concern) I have is - are the "you" and "people" you refer to in your post people on TC, people you know, or your previous feeling of what you should know?


Good question.

This is definitely a dialogue/storm/battle inside my own mind, not directly related to anything anyone ever said to me in real life or on the internet.

Without a doubt I am my own worst critic, for good and ill.

I will know it all someday, I am determined, or I will die trying to.


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## Ralfy (Jul 19, 2010)

I took a few references (like Libbey's book, a few lists released online by RCA, DG, and Naxos, a _Penguin Guide_), selected the most highly recommended performances, and looked for them. It just so happened that publishers have been selling several of them at budget or very low prices, so I buy what's available and try to listen to them.

I do the same for books, films, etc.


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