# Vote for your favorite Verdi operas. Multiple choices allowed.



## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

These are the operas of Verdi which are generally considered to be his "greatest". Vote for your favorites. I had to leave out Attila since only 15 choices are allowed.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I couldn't bear to leave out some of the operas listed, so I voted for almost all of them! The operas that I *could *live without were *Falstaff *, and *Giovanna d'Arco* only because I had never bonded with them, or they were not in Callas' repertoire.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Like, MAS, I find it hard to leave any out, so I voted for nearly all of them. Of the ones not listed, I miss *Stiffelio* and *Luisa Miller*, but really I like all his operas.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Un Ballo
Forza
Macbeth
are also in the running but when do we stop at "favorites?"

Actually, my only 2 true favorites are Don Carlo and Otello which are also in my top 5 favorite operas..


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

I wanted to include _Attila_ and _Luisa Miller_, but there were limited slots. I also could have limited the choices to 3, or 5, in order to focus the voting, but left it open to all 15. But these 15 are usually listed as the most performed, and in at least one box set grouped together as "the great operas."

I was surprised that there had not been a thread like this before, or at least I couldn't find one when I searched/looked.

I phrased the question using "favorite" instead of "greatest" since that term often derails a thread. But if you wish, you can treat your votes in either fashion.

Thanks for participating; I am curious how it will turn out. _La traviata_ has a clear lead, which is not surprising, but it will be interesting to see how they stack up.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Falstaff - definitely
Otello - maybe once a year or so
Macbeth - maybe once a decade or so
as to the rest ... meh ... some were pleasures of youth but I grew out of it.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I'm not as much a fan of opera as I am of others categories but when I'm in the zone Verdi is one of my three main 'go-to' composers, along with Wagner and Britten. I chose _Macbeth_, _Rigoletto_ and _Othello_ as I'm a bit of a sucker for the blood-and-thunder/psychodrama side of things.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

*Verdi* and *Mozart* are my two favorite composers, with *Puccini* and *Rossini* not far behind.

In this poll I voted for _La Traviata_, _Rigoletto_, _Otello_, _Macbeth_, and _Un Ballo_ - but I could have voted for all of them. _Don Carlo_ and _Simon Boccanegra_ came closest to getting my vote but I wanted to only vote for five.

I need to listen to _Giovanna d'Arco_ and _I Vespri Siciliani_ more, since it's been a long time, in fact, I may never have listen to Joan of Arc all the way through.

One thing, and this might be a subject for a new thread ("What unwritten operas do you wish the composers had completed?"): I really wish Verdi had completed his plan for an opera based on _King Lear_. I think it would have been stupendous.


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

I voted for the following (in order): 

Don Carlo
Falstaff
Otello
La Traviata
Simon Boccanegra
La forza del destino

Of earlier opera, I like Stiffelio and Macbeth but only with certain selective singers.


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

I'm keen on *Luisa Miller & Atilla.* Unfortunately I didn't see them in the list above. So I voted the *Rigoletto.*


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Dimace said:


> I'm keen on *Luisa Miller & Atilla.* Unfortunately I didn't see them in the list above. So I voted the *Rigoletto.*


Here's what I wrote in an earlier post:



> I wanted to include Attila and Luisa Miller, but there were limited slots.


With only 15 available choices, I had to leave some off.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I just went for _Otello._ I think its musical inventiveness and freshness, conciseness, tragic depth, and seamless integration of intimacy and grandeur combine to make it Verdi's crowning achievement. I find only Iago's mustache-twirling a little questionable. Is his stunted soul really deserving of a grand musical gesture such as begins his "credo"? Would an otherwise subtle sociopath stand and deliver his grim philosophy this way - or even have such an explicit philosophy to deliver? Well, it's an Italian opera after all! But one of the things I admire about it is Verdi's understatement: the quietly rapturous love duet, unlike any other; Otello's agonized inwardness in "Dio, mi potevi scagliar"; and Desdemona's dreamy "Willow Song" and prayer that create a sublime hush before the tragic storm. This quality of intimacy and restraint makes the opera's emotional outbursts all the more devastating, and gives the whole work a startling feeling of real life.

Verdi undoubtedly carried this refining process further in _Falstaff,_ removing nearly every trace of conventionally "operatic" gesture, but as a comedy that work inhabits a completely different and more contained emotional sphere. Technically it's a superb achievement, but I admire more than love it (though I do love the atmospheric scene in the forest with Nannetta's fairy song). My other most-liked Verdi operas are, in no particular order of preference, _Macbeth_ (but only with a very few sopranos, mainly Callas), _La Traviata, __Rigoletto,_ and _Un Ballo in Maschera. _ Despite having known and loved it in my early years, I'm fairly indifferent to _Aida,_ although I wouldn't turn down a great performance (which I expect never to hear, so I'll be content with the tomb scene sung by Caruso and Gadski or Martinelli and Ponselle).


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Despite having known and loved it in my early years, I'm fairly indifferent to _Aida,_ although I wouldn't turn down a great performance (which I expect never to hear, so I'll be content with the tomb scene sung by Caruso and Gadski or Martinelli and Ponselle).


I have a sort of love/hate relationship with *Aida*. It is definitely not my favourite Verdi, though it has some splendid music. I find the characters tend to emerge as representative archetypes rather than real flesh and blood people, which isn't the case with my favourite Verdi operas. That said, and though I usually don't collect multiple recordings of one opera, I've ended up with six different recordings of it. I'm not quite sure why. Mind you, I also have seven different recordings of *La Traviata*, though four of those are with Callas, who is, as far as I'm concerned, _hors concours_ and absolutely essential. I don't feel quite the same about her Aida, though I'd never want to be without it.


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## ThaNotoriousNIC (Jun 29, 2020)

Coming off my Verdi opera binge from a few months back were I listened to the entire catalog of operas on Spotify. Now that I have had some time to see which ones I keep on listening to, here are my top five in no particular order:

*1) Macbeth:* probably the biggest surprise I had in my Verdi binge and is now among my favorites.

*2) Aida:* one of the first Verdi operas I listened to and saw in performance. Still hold it in high regard

*3) Rigoletto:* the first Verdi opera I was introduced to and still gets airtime on my playlists years later.

*4) La Forza del Destino:* Either this opera or Don Carlo stand out as my favorite from Verdi's repertoire on a given day. I found listening to this opera to be very engaging and I look forward to seeing it in performance one day.

*5) Don Carlo:* Love this opera for its grandeur and bass/baritone arias. I sometimes I get a little lost in the music because it is so long, but I think once I see it in performance with libretto in front of me it will fully click.

Honorable Mentions:

1) Otello
2) Nabucco
3) Atilla
4) I Vespri Siciliani
5) Un Balllo in Maschera

Still trying to figure out whether I enjoy Falstaff or not. I think I need to see it in performance for me to really get into it.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

ThaNotoriousNIC said:


> Coming off my Verdi opera binge from a few months back were I listened to the entire catalog of operas on Spotify. Now that I have had some time to see which ones I keep on listening to, here are my top five in no particular order:
> 
> *1) Macbeth:* probably the biggest surprise I had in my Verdi binge and is now among my favorites.
> 
> ...


I have been listening to several Verdi operas over the last week or so, he has always been a favorite of mine. I agree with many of your comments, especially about _Macbeth_ and _La forza del destino_. The only one of your list that I don't connect to is _Aida_.

In the coming days/weeks I plan on listening to all of the major operas and some of the lesser performed ones as well. _Don Carlo_ is next, but _Attila_ is also on the list too.


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## ThaNotoriousNIC (Jun 29, 2020)

SanAntone said:


> I have been listening to several Verdi operas over the last week or so, he has always been a favorite of mine. I agree with many of your comments, especially about _Macbeth_ and _La forza del destino_. The only one of your list that I don't connect to is _Aida_.
> 
> In the coming days/weeks I plan on listening to all of the major operas and some of the lesser performed ones as well. _Don Carlo_ is next, but _Attila_ is also on the list too.


Thanks! Macbeth and La Forza really are fantastic operas. The drama is really well conveyed through the music, which makes listening to it a treat. Favorite passages of mine for Macbeth and La Forza are as follows:

*Macbeth: *Act I, "Coro di Streghe: Che faceste? dite su" (love the chorus and how the orchestra invokes the storm); Act II, "Studia Il Passo, O Mio Figlio" (might be my new favorite Verdi aria); Act IV, Lady Macbeth Sleepwalking Scene

*La Forza del Destino: *Act III, "Lorche piffera e tamburi" (one of my favorite intros to a Verdi chorus and in some recordings, the chorus bursts in with so much energy); Act IV "Le minaccie, i fieri accenti" (love the build up as Don Alvaro and Don Carlo trade lines in a duet as they get ready to engage in a duel); Act IV: "Pace, Pace, Mio Dio" (incredible aria)

I have seen that Aida is one opera that is a bit more decisive from reading older posts throughout the forums. I think the appeal for me is the size and power of some of its ensemble parts and orchestral interludes while also having some very quiet, somber moments too. I think when I first got introduced to it I was captured by the awe of the triumphant victory marches from Act II. While I still love those parts, lately I have been vibing with its less bombastic scenes.

This includes the following: Act I "Celeste Aida"; Act I, "Possente, possente Ftha" (I believe this is the scene where the High Priestess prays to the gods. Some very colorful singing by the priestess backed up by the harp and I like the woodwind interludes); Act IV "O terra, addio" (A little bit dramatic that they are buried alive, but I like that Aida and Radames have their moment together at the end).

Enjoy the journey through the Verdi operas! It took me a few months to get through it with work but I think it is so worth it!


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## JohnP (May 27, 2014)

I voted for Otello because I taught the play and love it, Otello is a classic tragic hero, Iago's unfathomable malice is fascinating, Desdemona's innocence is punished, the music is magnificent and often heartbreaking, and it requires three world-class singers (which, sadly, are rarely assembled).

I voted for La Traviata because of the gorgeous music and the ambiguity of the plot: Violetta is socially inferior to and considered morally inferior to the two Germonts, yet shows greater moral strength. The story is endlessly fascinating and crushingly sad.

I voted for Don Carlo, in whatever version, because the music is beautiful and involving, because it demands four (at least) great singers, and simply because I love it, flaws and all.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

JohnP said:


> I voted for Otello because I taught the play and love it, Otello is a classic tragic hero, Iago's unfathomable malice is fascinating, Desdemona's innocence is punished, the music is magnificent and often heartbreaking, and it requires three world-class singers (which, sadly, are rarely assembled).
> 
> I voted for La Traviata because of the gorgeous music and the ambiguity of the plot: Violetta is socially inferior to and considered morally inferior to the two Germonts, yet shows greater moral strength. The story is endlessly fascinating and crushingly sad.
> 
> I voted for Don Carlo, in whatever version, because the music is beautiful and involving, because it demands four (at least) great singers, and simply because I love it, flaws and all.


Very fine choices - and currently in a three-way tie for 1st place.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

I have heard the following (I've only been seriously listening to opera for about a year and I don't want to overload myself on certain composers):

Aida
La Traviata
Otello
Falstaff
Don Carlo
Rigoletto

_Don Carlo_ is my favorite due to its epic sweep, literary explorations of human nature, enveloping drama, and deeply poignant music - in fact it may be my favorite opera of all; it is everything that I look for in the most complete of all art forms. This is followed by _Otello_ which is, in my opinion, a brilliant adaptation of one of Shakespeare's most perfect plays. Is there anything quite as thrilling as that opening scene? _Rigoletto_ comes next - I love the terse dramatic structure, memorable arias, and innovative techniques such as the approach of the thunderstorm in the background of the orchestra in the final act, which I've heard compared to cinematic technique. However, the story is sort of hyperbolically tragic and histrionic. _Falstaff_ is a great deal of fun to listen to and again captures the spirit of the Bard perfectly, though I find that its impish, quicksilver wittiness leaves me wanting more moments of relaxation and lyricism. _Traviata_ and _Aida_ are OK. Lots of great music, of course, but the stories don't grab me as much and all the triumphant marching-band stuff in _Aida_ drives me nuts. I value them more for the opportunity to hear immortal singers do the famous set pieces. I think _Macbeth_ will probably be next for me.

All that being said, however, I fall firmly in the camp that the Requiem is Verdi's greatest work. It ranks among my very favorite works of all time and never fails to stir the most intense emotions. How I would love to see it live with a knockout vocal quartet (including a massive-voiced soprano in the vein of Price or Tebaldi who can soar in awe-inspiring fashion over the choir in the _Libera me_), a big, lusty choir; and a bass drum player who actually isn't afraid to whack the thing like his worst enemy's face is on it.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I have heard the following (I've only been seriously listening to opera for about a year and I don't want to overload myself on certain composers):
> 
> Aida
> La Traviata
> ...


*Don Carlo*, for all that it doesn't achieve the perfection of *Otello* or *Falstaff*, where you really can't cut a note of the music, is often Verdi lovers' favourite. I have always loved it too and I think that in Act IV Scene i it has one of the greatest scenes in all Verdi. From the balefully beautiful, introduction, through Philip's grandly mournful aria, the superb scene for the two basses, the ensuing trio and finishing up with Eboli's thrilling _O don fatale_, Verdi doesn't put a foot wrong.

Unlike you, *La Traviata* has always been, and still is, one of my favourites, but it does need a great Violetta to make its effect, a singer who can bring a feverish intensity to the role, not just someone to sing the notes.

In the theatre, only two sopranos have really managed that for me. One, surprisingly perhaps, was Josephine Barstow, whom I saw in a wonderful English National Opera production when I was quite young and the other was Ileana Cotrubas, who of course also made an acclaimed recording of the opera. I also saw Gheorghiu at one of the Covent Garden performances that made her a star, and which was issued both on CD and DVD. She was excellent, but I felt then that it was still a performance in the making (it was her debut after all). Unfortunately there was such a lot of hype around the performance, which I think probably went to Gheorghiu's head, and she never quite became the great artist she might have done. Mine is no doubt a controversial opinion, but I saw her several times after that and she was never quite as good again.

On record Callas reigns supreme and I have her in four different recordings (Cetra studio of 1952, La Scala 1955, Lisbon and London 1958), none of which I would want to be without. The London performance is one of the greatest of anything I've ever heard. Callas's performance is so palpably real, that we are no longer in the theatre but experiencing Violetta's pain and sacrifice as if it was real. I've reviewed the performance on my blog http://tsaraslondon.com/2017/07/17/callass-covent-garden-traviata/ . I'd give anything to have been at those Covent Garden performances in 1958.

*Aida* I admire rather than love. It is full of wonderful music, but the characters rarely engage me or involve me. They are more representative archetypes than real people and I don't feel their suffering the way I do Otello, Simon Boccanegra, Rigoletto, Violetta or virtually all the characters in *Don Carlo*.

Talking of *Rigoletto* I am seeing it at Covent Garden in a new production next week. I liked the old one, which I saw with Simon Keenlyside as Rigoletto (not really a Verdi baritone, but nevertheless wonderfully convincing in the role). This time round we have Carlos Alvarez and Lisette Oropesa.

I love the *Requiem* too, by the way. I've heard it live many times and it never fails to make an effect. Excuse my ramblings. Verdi tends to do that to me.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Which do people prefer, Don Carlos or Don Carlo?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

HenryPenfold said:


> Which do people prefer, Don Carlos or Don Carlo?


If you're differentiating between the French and Italian versions, it isn't that simple. There's the French five act version, the Italian four act version and the Italian five act version and plenty of variations on these. I suppose it should be performed in French these days, but I don't object to the Italian version and the best recorded performances are all in Italian.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Tsaraslondon said:


> If you're differentiating between the French and Italian versions, it isn't that simple. There's the French five act version, the Italian four act version and the Italian five act version and plenty of variations on these. I suppose it should be performed in French these days, but I don't object to the Italian version and the best recorded performances are all in Italian.


I hadn't realised there was so much to it. I have the 4 act Karajan EMI (Carlo) and the 5 act Alberto Hold-Garrido on Naxos (Carlos) both sung in Italian.

EDIT: Not sure whether Naxos have titled their set as Don Carlos, erroneously.

I'm well and truly confused!


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Astounding to me that Simon Boccanegra is not regarded highly by the majority of posters.

On the other hand, it pleased me to see that 2 of my top choices were Don Carlo (my favorite) and Otello (my second favorite out of 5 operas).

It is rather common knowledge by now that Traviata has been THE #1 favorite for years.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

HenryPenfold said:


> I hadn't realised there was so much to it. I have the 4 act Karajan EMI (Carlo) and the 5 act Alberto Hold-Garrido on Naxos (Carlos) both sung in Italian.
> 
> EDIT: Not sure whether Naxos have titled their set as Don Carlos, erroneously.
> 
> I'm well and truly confused!


I think when the Royal Opera House first performed the 5 Act version in the Visconti production in 1959 with Giulini conducting, it was called *Don Carlos* to differentiate between the more normally performed four act version, though it was still sung in Italian. However, when Giulini came to make his rcording in 1971 (also in Italian) it was called *Don Carlo*, though that recording has been issued over the years both as *Don Carlo* and *Don Carlos*. Abbado's recording in French, which is probably more complete than any as it includes music in an appendix that Verdi subsequently cut, has always been called *Don Carlos*. It would make more sense to me to just refer to it as *Don Carlos* when it's in French and *Don Carlo* when it's in Italian, though I don't think there's any hard and fast rule.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> All that being said, however, I fall firmly in the camp that the Requiem is Verdi's greatest work. It ranks among my very favorite works of all time and never fails to stir the most intense emotions. How I would love to see it live with a knockout vocal quartet (including a massive-voiced soprano in the vein of Price or Tebaldi who can soar in awe-inspiring fashion over the choir in the _Libera me_), a big, lusty choir; and a bass drum player who actually isn't afraid to whack the thing like his worst enemy's face is on it.


I agree with you here, though I did not mention it in my post. I feel I saw and heard a great live performance in 1973 with the San Francisco Symphony, conducted by Seiji Ozawa. Soloist were Martina Arroyo, Maureen Forrester, Placido Domingo, and Martti Talvela, all fully capable of doing justice to this great work. All at their peak, and vocally resplendent, fully alert to the nuances of the piece.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I fall firmly in the camp that the Requiem is Verdi's greatest work. It ranks among my very favorite works of all time and never fails to stir the most intense emotions. How I would love to see it live with a knockout vocal quartet (including a massive-voiced soprano in the vein of Price or Tebaldi who can soar in awe-inspiring fashion over the choir in the _Libera me_), a big, lusty choir; and a bass drum player who actually isn't afraid to whack the thing like his worst enemy's face is on it.





Tsaraslondon said:


> I love the *Requiem* too, by the way. I've heard it live many times and it never fails to make an effect. .





MAS said:


> I agree with you here, though I did not mention it in my post. I feel I saw and heard a great live performance in 1973 with the San Francisco Symphony, conducted by Seiji Ozawa. Soloist were Martina Arroyo, Maureen Forrester, Placido Domingo, and Martti Talvels, all fully capable of doing justice to this great work. All at their peak, and vocally resplendent, fully alert to the nuances of the piece.


I have to disagree with you all here, while I am an ardent fan of Verdi operas, I am not a fan of the _Requiem_. Too operatic for my taste in sacred music. The _Requiem_ I consider near perfect is *Duruflé*'s, but really, post-Renaissance (with the exception of Bach) sacred music goes downhill, IMO.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

MAS said:


> I agree with you here, though I did not mention it in my post. I feel I saw and heard a great live performance in 1973 with the San Francisco Symphony, conducted by Seiji Ozawa. Soloist were Martina Arroyo, Maureen Forrester, Placido Domingo, and Martti Talvels, all fully capable of doing justice to this great work. All at their peak, and vocally resplendent, fully alert to the nuances of the piece.


Wow! That's quite a roster of soloists.

The most moving performance I ever heard was at the Royal Opera House, Covent Garden, a hastily cobbled together performance, given as a tribute to a stage hand who had been killed by falling scenery during technical rehearsals for *Don Carlo*. It was apparently suggested by Katia Ricciarelli and Agnes Baltsa, who were singing in the opera and also sang the female parts in the Requiem. Robert Lloyd, who was singing Fillippo, sang the bass part, but Denis O'Neill, who was singing Carlo, was unavailable and Athur Davies stepped in. Colin Davis conducted. Everyone involved had given their services free so that all the money raised could go to the stagehand's family. I remember the soloists entered in absolute silence and there wasn't even any applause at the end, people were so moved. I'll never forget it. Everyone excelled themselves, but Baltsa was outstanding, as she was later on in the opera.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Isn't it more properly referred to as the Manzoni Requiem by Verdi?


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

I voted for five.

In the order of which I like the most:

1) Simon Boccanegra
2) Otello
3) Don Carlo
4) La Forze del Destino
5) Macbeth


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> Isn't it more properly referred to as the Manzoni Requiem by Verdi?


It was once upon a time, but you'll rarely find it referred to as such nowadays. All the recordings I know just call it the Verdi Requiem.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

SanAntone said:


> I have to disagree with you all here, while I am an ardent fan of Verdi operas, I am not a fan of the _Requiem_. Too operatic for my taste in sacred music. The _Requiem_ I consider near perfect is *Duruflé*'s, but really, post-Renaissance (with the exception of Bach) sacred music goes downhill, IMO.


It is quite operatic, I grant you, but it is representative of Verdi and it was never really intended to be heard in a liturgical setting. Indeed you are much more likely to come across it in the concert hall, where it never fails to make an effect.

I like the more intimate Duruflé and Fauré Requiems too, by the way. But I also love the Britten *War Requiem* and the massive Berlioz Requiem.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Okay, here are my top 5 Verdi operas:
1. Don Carlo
2. Otello
3. Rigoletto
4. La Traviata
5. Simon Boccanegra/Il trovatore (tie)


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

SanAntone said:


> I have to disagree with you all here, while I am an ardent fan of Verdi operas, I am not a fan of the _Requiem_. Too operatic for my taste in sacred music. The _Requiem_ I consider near perfect is *Duruflé*'s, but really, post-Renaissance (with the exception of Bach) sacred music goes downhill, IMO.


Verdi's *Messa da Requiem* is sometimes referred to as his greatest *opera* and contain some beautiful spiritual, restful music, but also some extremely dramatic _secular_ passages. His relationship with religion was not a happy one, but I think he was a deeply spiritual man.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Like, MAS, I find it hard to leave any out, so I voted for nearly all of them. Of the ones not listed, I miss *Stiffelio* and *Luisa Miller*, but really I like all his operas.


Had the poll included Stiffelio rather than Giovanna d'Arco (which is there presumably because it has had quite a few performances recently), I would have voted for it (and there are quite a few of the earlier operas that I would place above the rather humdrum Giovanna).

I voted for Don Carlo(s) (it took a while for me to warm to it, but now it is one of my favourites of all his operas along with Traviata), Traviata, Macbeth and Forza. Trovatore, Rigoletto (needs the right cast though), Vespri, Boccanegra and Aida would be next.

Of the earlier operas I'd pick Nabucco, I Lombardi, Ernani, Attila and Stiffelio as my faves. (Other than Macbeth, of course.)

I find it interesting how tastes have changed over the years, with Trovatore falling in popularity and the rise of Macbeth, Forza and Don Carlo over the last 100 years.

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> Had the poll included Stiffelio rather than Giovanna d'Arco (which is there presumably because it has had quite a few performances recently), I would have voted for it (and there are quite a few of the earlier operas that I would place above the rather humdrum Giovanna).
> 
> I voted for Don Carlo(s) (it took a while for me to warm to it, but now it is one of my favourites of all his operas along with Traviata), Traviata, Macbeth and Forza. Trovatore, Rigoletto (needs the right cast though), Vespri, Boccanegra and Aida would be next.
> 
> ...


I can think of a few reasons for these apparent changes in taste. Caruso said that _Trovatore_ is a sure-fire success if you had the four greatest singers in the world, but he didn't live in the world of 2021, when our four greatest singers are...um... _Ernani _was very popular before WW I too, but then you had people like Ponselle and Battistini to sing it. Certain operas may also be more or less popular than formerly because they strike modern audiences as not very credible or interesting dramatically. The two operas mentioned, with contrived and sometimes silly plots and mostly unremarkable characters, seem like perfect examples. They simply must be superbly sung. The other two members of Verdi's "triptych," _Traviata_ and _Rigoletto_, have clear, comprehensible stories and unforgettable characters in which even competent singing actors can make a good effect.

Esteem for _Macbeth_ and _Don Carlo_ may have suffered a bit from problems with editions. The unrevised _Macbeth_ was apparently a good bit less effective than the revision; apparently it was never a success during Verdi's lifetime, which disappointed him greatly. Like the play, it needs a strong Lady Macbeth to make the most of it.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

"Wagner in turn attended a performance of Verdi's Requiem in Vienna on November 2, 1875, conducted by Hans Richter, who during the following summer would be Wagner's conductor and principal assistant for the premiere of the complete Ring cycle in Bayreuth. Though the Requiem had pretty obviously impressed Wagner favorably, he did not direct his comments to the Requiem itself, but instead to an expression of his shock (and envy!) at how much Verdi had been paid for the composition."



SanAntone said:


> post-Renaissance (with the exception of Bach) sacred music goes downhill, IMO.


My view is the exact opposite; I have to agree with Berlioz and Tchaikovsky on this. I think the common practice was when religious music got a bit better; freely expressing a wide ranging variety of moods. Allegri's miserere is, to me, music to create a mere "atmosphere"; and nothing more than that. There's nothing in pre-Bach music that I associate with feelings such as "innocent piety" for instance. 
"Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 18:3)











hammeredklavier said:


> "It is quite possible that the musician who wrote these four-part psalms, in which *there is neither melody nor rhythm*, and in which the harmony is confined to perfect chords with a few suspensions, may have had some taste and a certain amount of scientific knowledge; *but genius - the idea is too absurd!*
> There are, moreover, people who sincerely believe that Palestrina deliberately wrote in this way in order that his music might be perfectly adopted to his own pious ideal of the words of the text. They would soon see their mistake if they were to hear his madrigals, in which the most frivolous or gallant words are set to exactly the same music as those of the Bible. For example, he has set the words, _"Alla riva del Tebro, giovainetto vidd' io vago Pastore,"_ etc., to a solemn chorus, the harmony and general effect of which are identical with those of his so-called religious compositions. *The truth is that he could not write any other kind of music*; and, far from pursuing any celestial ideal, *his works contain a quantity of formulas adopted from the contrapuntists who preceded him*, and of whom he is usually supposed to have been the inspired antagonist. If proof is wanted, look at his _Missa ad fugam_.
> *How, then, do such works as these, clever though they may be as regards to their conquest of contrapuntal difficulties, contribute to the expression of religious feeling?* How far are such specimens of the labor of a patient chord-manufacturer indicative of single-minded absorption in the true object of his work? In no way that I can see. *The expressive accent of a musical work is not enhanced in any way by its being embodied in a perpetual canon*. Beauty and truth of expression gain nothing by the difficulties which the composer may have had to overcome in producing them, any more than his work would be increased in value from the fact that he had been suffering physical pain while he was writing it. If Palestrina had lost his hands, and been forced to write with his feet, that fact would not have enhanced the value of his works or increased their religious merit."


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