# Lots of dumb / obvious / novice questions.



## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

As I've mentioned in virtually every post I've made here I'm quite new to opera, first started getting into it a year ago. The downside is that, not having been interested it since my youth, there are lots of aspects to it that might seem obvious to most but aren't really spelled out anywhere. Any help regarding these (and others that will surely come up in the weeks and months to come) is appreciated, as is your indulgence with my relative ignorance 

1) Why is Donizetti (among others) considered bel canto? In fact, what is bel canto? Wikipedia gives a definition, but I don't quite see why, say, _Chacun Le Sait_ is bel canto but _Ruhe Sanft Mein Holdes_ isn't.

2) Why is Orphee Aux Enfers considered an operetta while La Fille Du Regiment is considered an opera? Running time is virtually identical on the dvds I have (both Pelly / Dessay productions), both are humorous with a very lightweight plot, ...

3) Is 'operetta' considered a lesser work than an opera? That is, if something is labelled as an operetta, is there a derogatory connotation?

4) Similarly, is there an unspoken hierarchy among fachs? That is, is a lyric coloratura soprano singer considered less impressive than an equally skilled full lyric soprano? I've kind of gathered that from reading between the lines in various articles, but it could be a product of my imagination.

5) What do singers and critics mean by support, as in "He has a mediocre voice, and very poor support"?

That's it for now, I'm sure more will come to mind later. Thanks in advance for any info.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> Why is Donizetti (among others) considered bel canto? In fact, what is bel canto


Bel canto is when fat italian guy sings like he would be walking to his workplace in nice summer day while being in good humor. There is too much ornamentation so you could write only one expressive remark on the score: _grazioso_. German operas in similiar manner are usually labeled 'brilliant'. The meaning is almost the same.



> Is 'operetta' considered a lesser work than an opera? That is, if something is labelled as an operetta, is there a derogatory connotation?


If something is labelled as operetta then you can approach it like brodway musical. If it equals derogatory connotation, well, that is matter of preferences. Personally I hate operetta.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

rgz said:


> 1) Why is Donizetti (among others) considered bel canto? In fact, what is bel canto? Wikipedia gives a definition, but I don't quite see why, say, _Chacun Le Sait_ is bel canto but _Ruhe Sanft Mein Holdes_ isn't.


Bel canto usually refers to Italian opera from the early part of the 19th century. It means 'beautiful singing' and is often very virtuosic with lots of coloratura. Rossini, Donizetti and Bellini are the most important bel canto composers.



> 2) Why is Orphee Aux Enfers considered an operetta while La Fille Du Regiment is considered an opera? Running time is virtually identical on the dvds I have (both Pelly / Dessay productions), both are humorous with a very lightweight plot, ...


An operetta usually includes spoken dialogue.



> 3) Is 'operetta' considered a lesser work than an opera? That is, if something is labelled as an operetta, is there a derogatory connotation?


No, not necessarily. It's just a different, 'lighter' genre.



> 4) Similarly, is there an unspoken hierarchy among fachs? That is, is a lyric coloratura soprano singer considered less impressive than an equally skilled full lyric soprano? I've kind of gathered that from reading between the lines in various articles, but it could be a product of my imagination.


No, different roles require different types of singers.


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## nefigah (Aug 23, 2008)

jhar26 said:


> An operetta usually includes spoken dialogue.


What's the difference between an operetta and a musical?


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

nefigah said:


> What's the difference between an operetta and a musical?


 That's a question for the "define classical music" thread.


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## Herkku (Apr 18, 2010)

The support in the context of singing means controlling the flow and pressure of the air you exhale while singing with the muscles of your body, mostly with your diaphragm, abdominal, chest and back muscles - ultimately your whole body. It shouldn't feel forced though, but come naturally according to the kind of music you sing. Without any support to your voice you might produce a feeble beep, but with a proper support you might be able to create and sustain a sound that carries to the back rows of an opera house or a concert hall.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

nefigah said:


> What's the difference between an operetta and a musical?


If it makes me nauseous, it's a musical. If it doesn't, it's an operetta. I'm pretty sure that's in the Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians somewhere.


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## Herkku (Apr 18, 2010)

The borderline between opera and operetta has been a little hazy for me too. The New Kobbé's Complete Opera Book lists Franz von Suppé's Boccaccio, Johann Strauss's Die Fledermaus, Eine Nacht in Venedig, Der Zigeunerbaron and Wienerblut, and Karl Millöcker's Der Bettelstudent under German opera, but nothing by Franz Lehár or Emmerich Kálmán. In my view, all the works mentioned above could be described operettas. So, where should we draw the line?


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Weston said:


> If it makes me nauseous, it's a musical. If it doesn't, it's an operetta.


Works for me!


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## Herkku (Apr 18, 2010)

OK, but this still doesn't clarify the difference between an opera and an operetta.

I admit that musicals - nowadays - tend to revolve around one or two melodies until you really feel sick. Thanks a bunch, Mr. Lloyd Webber! In the olden times, with the Sound of Music, South Pacific, My Fair Lady and Mary Poppins, just to name a few, you had at least an abundance of good melodies! I mean that I'd rather listen to "I'm Gonna Wash That Man Right Outa My Hair" or "The Rain in Spain Stays Mainly in the Plain" or " Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious" than a dull opera aria and I'm not a bit ashamed of it!


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

And why is The Magic Flute still considered an opera? It has speaking parts. Is it a matter of degree or is it because Mozart wrote it? (I am currently watching a nice DVD of The Magic Flute and was amazed it made me laugh nearly from the beginning, 220 year old jokes entertaining across the centuries and across cultures.)


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Weston said:


> And why is The Magic Flute still considered an opera? It has speaking parts. Is it a matter of degree or is it because Mozart wrote it? (I am currently watching a nice DVD of The Magic Flute and was amazed it made me laugh nearly from the beginning, 220 year old jokes entertaining across the centuries and across cultures.)


It's a 'singspiel' - a genre that was in vogue in the late 18th century. Jozef II was a big supporter of the genre which he saw as the Germanic answer to the Italian opera buffa. Other well known singspiels are Mozart's "Die Entfuhrung aus dem Serail" and Dittersdorf's "Doktor und Apotheker." The Magic Flute isn't only a comic opera, there's also a lot of freemason symbolism in there. So it works on several levels really.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Weston said:


> If it makes me nauseous, it's a musical. If it doesn't, it's an operetta. I'm pretty sure that's in the Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians somewhere.


Musicals get a bad rap, but a lot of that is not justified. Take for example Show Boat, West Side Story, the Rodgers & Hammerstein musicals (often ridicluled, but many of them featuring more classic songs than can be found on a Beatles album), the Sondheim musicals, etc. Some are as good as any operetta and better than most. Stephen Sondheim is to my mind as serious a composer for the musical theatre as any opera composer. The musicals of Gershwin, Kern, Porter, Arlen, Berlin, Rodgers, Mercer and so on feature many of the best pop songs of the 20th century. Jazz singers like Ella Fiztgerald, Billie Holiday, Sarah Vaughan and many, many others made careers out of singing them. Same for traditional pop singers like Sinatra and Peggy Lee. The jazz instrumentalists who are so admired by some posters here have been playing them all their lifes. Whenever you hear a great pop song from the pre-rock era (and there are hundreds of them) there's a big chance that it was first heard in a musical.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

I take your point about classic musicals.

I think it's the more recent crop that make me nauseous - anything sentimental by the ubiquitous Lloyd Weber really, ever since the 80s when my flatmate dragged me to Cats and I thought I'd self-destruct during the meretricious slush that is "Memories". And "Phantom of the Opera" - why he even makes Puccini sound bad.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

mamascarlatti said:


> I take your point about classic musicals.
> 
> I think it's the more recent crop that make me nauseous - anything sentimental by the ubiquitous Lloyd Weber really, ever since the 80s when my flatmate dragged me to Cats and I thought I'd self-destruct during the meretricious slush that is "Memories". And "Phantom of the Opera" - why he even makes Puccini sound bad.


I agree about Mr.Webber. I never really understood why he made it that big to begin with.


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## Gneiss (Feb 3, 2009)

jhar26 said:


> Musicals get a bad rap, but a lot of that is not justified. Take for example Show Boat, West Side Story, the Rodgers & Hammerstein musicals (often ridicluled, but many of them featuring more classic songs than can be found on a Beatles album), the Sondheim musicals, etc. Some are as good as any operetta and better than most. Stephen Sondheim is to my mind as serious a composer for the musical theatre as any opera composer. The musicals of Gershwin, Kern, Porter, Arlen, Berlin, Rodgers, Mercer and so on feature many of the best pop songs of the 20th century. Jazz singers like Ella Fiztgerald, Billie Holiday, Sarah Vaughan and many, many others made careers out of singing them. Same for traditional pop singers like Sinatra and Peggy Lee. The jazz instrumentalists who are so admired by some posters here have been playing them all their lifes. Whenever you hear a great pop song from the pre-rock era (and there are hundreds of them) there's a big chance that it was first heard in a musical.


For the most part I would agree with you, and some great names... I would also mention films like those of Deanna Durbin, who had without doubt one of the greatest lyric soprano voices there has ever been. If I had closed my mind to those old films when younger I may never have discovered her. Hollywood brought us some great singers and songs through film - for many it was also the only way they would ever hear anything from an opera.


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## nefigah (Aug 23, 2008)

Ugh, I once had a girlfriend who made me watch "My Fair Lady"... I'm inclined to agree with Weston.


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## Figaro78 (Aug 20, 2010)

The difference between opera and operetta is usually a matter of love and how it's approached.
Operettas treat the subject in a light, frothy style free from the ponderous, violent, and deadly manner in which opera handles it No one dies of love in an operetta while in an opera few characters die
from any other cause. Then, of course, there's sex. No wonder operettas first caused a sensation
with their sly, naughty, and suggestive treatment of a subject too controversial for opera...at least before 
Salome and Lulu. Imagine Wagner composing an opera about a merry widow!


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

1) Why is Donizetti (among others) considered bel canto? In fact, what is bel canto? Wikipedia gives a definition, but I don't quite see why, say, Chacun Le Sait is bel canto but Ruhe Sanft Mein Holdes isn't.

Bel Canto is a specific style / subgenre of Italian opera at the time of Donizetti, Bellini, and Rossini. It stands for beautiful singing and privileges melodious lines with coloratura, as well as sharp divisions between recitatif and aria.

2) Why is Orphee Aux Enfers considered an operetta while La Fille Du Regiment is considered an opera? Running time is virtually identical on the dvds I have (both Pelly / Dessay productions), both are humorous with a very lightweight plot, ...

Operettas have spoken dialogue. There are other categories that have spoken dialogue as well without being operettas, like Singspiel and Opéra Comique (which is the case for La fille du Régiment).

3) Is 'operetta' considered a lesser work than an opera? That is, if something is labelled as an operetta, is there a derogatory connotation?

An operetta has usually lighter orchestration, is more humoristic/satirical, is more entertaining than cerebral, but is not necessarily any worse than other subgenres. Some people may look down on operettas, but then, they don't know what they are missing since there are some quite excellent ones.

4) Similarly, is there an unspoken hierarchy among fachs? That is, is a lyric coloratura soprano singer considered less impressive than an equally skilled full lyric soprano? I've kind of gathered that from reading between the lines in various articles, but it could be a product of my imagination.

Definitely not. Each role requires a different voice, so, you wouldn't get good results if you mixed them up. It's called the tessitura, or the specific ranges for each role, and the composers' style. Some voices are more suited to some roles than others. You have excellent singers in each range and style.

5) What do singers and critics mean by support, as in "He has a mediocre voice, and very poor support"?

It has to do with the use of the respiratory muscles to sustain notes.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> Operettas have spoken dialogue.


As do la Fille du regiment (just listen to Natalie Dessay muttering to herself mutinously while peeling spuds, or haranging her "Papa") and many versions of Carmen.


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## Grosse Fugue (Mar 3, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> As do la Fille du regiment (just listen to Natalie Dessay muttering to herself mutinously while peeling spuds, or haranging her "Papa") and many versions of Carmen.


Both are examples of Opera Comique. Despite the name serious opera like Carmen are included. Also in the German Singspiel, like Die Zauberflote, there is spoken dialogue.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Grosse Fugue said:


> Both are examples of Opera Comique. Despite the name serious opera like Carmen are included. Also in the German Singspiel, like Die Zauberflote, there is spoken dialogue.


Quite so. So there must be another way of distinguishing opera from operetta, or is it more of a matter of convention, or are they on a continuum?


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

mamascarlatti said:


> Quite so. So there must be another way of distinguishing opera from operetta, or is it more of a matter of convention, or are they on a continuum?


I suppose that in Operetta a lot of the music is based on waltzes and polkas and such.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Quite so. So there must be another way of distinguishing opera from operetta, or is it more of a matter of convention, or are they on a continuum?


Well, in my understanding the strict definition of operetta is kind of blurry in terms of frontiers when you consider other subgenres like Opéra Comique, Zarzuella, and Singspiel. Generally speaking, the spoken dialogue while essential to the core of the definition, does occur in other genres so it can't be reliably used as the only criterion.

Operettas are lighter than operas in various ways, starting with the subject matter which is comic or satirical and addresses sex in a much more explicit way than most operas do (even when compared to opera buffa). The orchestration is also supposed to be lighter and to function as a merry accompaniment to the action rather than a full blown device to transmit feelings, ideas, and moods - which of course doesn't stop very talented operetta composers from including elaborate and exquisite orchestration in their works. The genres of music employed by operetta composers are often the dancing/folkloric type suitable for bright, lively showmanship. Operettas are also often much shorter than most full blown operas, especially the Grand Opera kind with its five acts and ballet. So operettas fill the need of the audiences for an evening of fun in which they'll laugh a lot and leave the theater relatively early to go to some drinking place, without having to think very much about the complex music they get from an opera.

You know, I'm not sure if it's a continuum, because if you were to watch an operatic work without knowing anything about it beforehand and without knowing how it was classified, you would still *know* - in a sort of intuitive way that leaves little room for doubt - whether it was an opera or an operetta.

So the bottom line for me is that regardless of academic definitions and some overlapping, operas and operettas do constitute two distinct genres of musical theater. It's similar to the definition from that point down, that is, the difference between an operetta and a Broadway musical. While the obvious difference is the lyric singing versus popular music singing, there are examples that seem to blur the line as well. However, I can perfectly *feel* the difference, and I'd agree with an user who said (I don't remember if here or on another thread) who said "I know that it is a musical because I throw up when I hear it." LOL - Edit - yes, it was here, Weston above.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> However, I can perfectly *feel* the difference, and I'd agree with an user who said (I don't remember if here or on another thread) who said "I know that it is a musical because I throw up when I hear it." LOL - Edit - yes, it was here, Weston above.


Yes I've always "known" the difference but it's not until now that I can see why. Thanks.


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## jurianbai (Nov 23, 2008)

can't resist to ask again. I still confuse how far is the music composer can compose a complex work like an opera. I understand the composer composed the music background.but is the composer write the storyline and the dialogue / lyric, which is required writing art skill more than music skill.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

jurianbai said:


> can't resist to ask again. I still confuse how far is the music composer can compose a complex work like an opera. I understand the composer composed the music background.but is the composer write the storyline and the dialogue / lyric, which is required writing art skill more than music skill.


Usually someone else writes the libretto, but there are exceptions like for example Wagner. As for what is most important, there are many great operas with a poor libretto but there are no great operas with poor music.


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## jurianbai (Nov 23, 2008)

with many great operas actually in not english language, I will temporary conclude that the libretto is serves as a musical voice only....


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

jurianbai said:


> can't resist to ask again. I still confuse how far is the music composer can compose a complex work like an opera. I understand the composer composed the music background.but is the composer write the storyline and the dialogue / lyric, which is required writing art skill more than music skill.





jurianbai said:


> with many great operas actually in not english language, I will temporary conclude that the libretto is serves as a musical voice only....


:lol:

I have come across Baroque opera libretti that are worse than your "Sing-lish", my friend.

Baroque opera has many examples of overtly complicated plots that are often silly and far-fetched. Nonetheless, it should be understood that these plots, as silly as they maybe, form the basis for the characters to express their emotions, which is of course the very foundation and inspiration for opera composers to write beautiful music, despite the silly plots. The situations were all a setup to allow the characters to tell the audience, via the music, how they feel.


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## jurianbai (Nov 23, 2008)

and my question was actually very conceptual, Dark Lord. I mean if the 'libretto' is just a 'supporting' medium without needed to understand the story being sung, then it is something just like a regular song.

Now let's go to the good opera, I only remember Mozart's Don Giovanni and the Magic Flute. This opera is very enjoyable, and while the music is extremely blended into the act (obviously Mozart), I also impressed with the act that reflect (the mostly simple) storyline, but yet I am not sure if it was Mozart who write it.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

jurianbai said:


> and my question was actually very conceptual, Dark Lord. I mean if the 'libretto' is just a 'supporting' medium without needed to understand the story being sung, then it is something just like a regular song.
> 
> Now let's go to the good opera, I only remember Mozart's Don Giovanni and the Magic Flute. This opera is very enjoyable, and while the music is extremely blended into the act (obviously Mozart), I also impressed with the act that reflect (the mostly simple) storyline, but yet I am not sure if it was Mozart who write it.


Those two great operas each had their own librettist, who was not Mozart. _Don Giovanni_ by an Italian poet, Lorenzo da Ponte. _Die Zauberflöte_ by Emanuel Schikaneder, friend of Mozart who was also a musician and of the theatre.

I think the answer to your question is no, the majority of opera libretti were not written by the music's composer. Often the libretto already existed in a version, and it was then tailored a little or a lot for the composer's "new opera production". Mozart's _La Clemenza di Tito_ was based on an old libretto, which have been set by other composers, too. It was based on a libretto by Metastasio, a popular 18th century Italian poet who wrote many libretti.


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## jurianbai (Nov 23, 2008)

yes, those are very nice to watch. i remember at one time in my life I like to impressed many chicks by singing "La ci dareeem la manoooo"........


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

jhar26 said:


> Usually someone else writes the libretto, but there are exceptions like for example Wagner. As for what is most important, there are many great operas with a poor libretto but there are no great operas with poor music.


Other composers who used to write their own libretti:

Alfano, Berlioz, Boïto, Busoni, Chausson, Delius, Hindemith, Janacek, Leoncavallo, Menotti, Messiaen, Mussorgsky, Prokoviev, Rimsky-Korsakov, Schönberg, Strauss, Stravinsky, Tippett and Vaughan-Williams.

No great operas with poor music - some would say that Mussorgsky's orchestration of Boris Godunov would be an example. Debatable, for sure, but it is often quoted as a great opera with two many orchestration problems.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

jurianbai said:


> yes, those are very nice to watch. i remember at one time in my life I like to impressed many chicks by singing "La ci dareeem la manoooo"........


Did it work? Were the chicks impressed? I hope so. :lol:


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