# Is opera a decadent bourgeois pastime?



## Garlic (May 3, 2013)

Don't get me wrong, I love opera. But sometimes it feels like a secret club for people who have made it, a way of showing to others how successful and cultured you are. I'm not denying that people genuinely love the music, but it seems to be a bonus rather than the whole point for some. Maybe I'm just insecure and paranoid, but I can't help feeling judgement coming down on me from other audience members - what is he doing here? He's not even dressed properly, doesn't even talk properly, doesn't even know the rules, who let that oik into our special club?

Am I being grossly unfair? I know I'm not the only one who feels this way, but is it totally unnecessary? Is anyone who wants to get into opera welcomed with open arms, or is there a certain standard to maintain? Should some people stay away altogether? Is this a peculiarly British problem/non-problem?


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Worried about getting stuck up against the wall when the revolution comes, are we?

I don't get out to the opera too often, but the classical music scene in general is pretty casual and non-exclusive where I'm from.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

No. Striving for, acquiring, and watching a seriously big big screen flat-screen TV for which you pay thousands of dollars is THE current bourgeois pastime.

I should probably reach for that handy Brahms quote as a shield of self-protection about now....
_"I apologize If there is anyone here I have failed to offend"_


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Garlic said:


> Don't get me wrong, I love opera. But sometimes it feels like a secret club for people who have made it, a way of showing to others how successful and cultured you are. I'm not denying that people genuinely love the music, but it seems to be a bonus rather than the whole point for some. Maybe I'm just insecure and paranoid, but I can't help feeling judgement coming down on me from other audience members - what is he doing here? He's not even dressed properly, doesn't even talk properly, doesn't even know the rules, who let that oik into our special club?
> 
> Am I being grossly unfair? I know I'm not the only one who feels this way, but is it totally unnecessary? Is anyone who wants to get into opera welcomed with open arms, or is there a certain standard to maintain? Should some people stay away altogether? Is this a peculiarly British problem/non-problem?


I think this may say more about you than opera.


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## Oreb (Aug 8, 2013)

Garlic said:


> ... sometimes it feels like a secret club for people who have made it, a way of showing to others how successful and cultured you are.


 Well I'm sure there are members of opera audiences with that mind-set, but I would question whether they make up the majority.

My own experience has been pretty positive. I go alone to operas (my nearest and dearest finding the 'caterwauling' not to their liking) and never have trouble striking up conversations about the performance with other audience members during act breaks and afterwards, walking to the train. And I don't own a suit (although I try to make sure my fly is buttoned and that food stains are obscured...)

Keep in mind, however, the wise words of Frank Zappa at the end of (I think) Burnt Weeny Sandwich: "Everyone here is wearing a uniform: don't kid yourself."

In other words, every social gathering is somehow exclusive and rule-bound. Try going to a dance club dressed in outer suburban clothes, or an "Occupy" sit-in dressed in a tux. No point singling out opera audiences for what is a far more common phenomenon.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Oreb said:


> _I try to make sure my fly is buttoned and *that food stains are obscured*..._
> 
> Keep in mind, however, the wise words of Frank Zappa at the end of (I think) Burnt Weeny Sandwich: "Everyone here is wearing a uniform: don't kid yourself."
> 
> In other words, every social gathering is somehow exclusive and rule-bound.


_"that food stains are obscured."_ See, there _is_ a practical reason for the existence of neck-ties.


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## Ralfy (Jul 19, 2010)

It is in given poor economic conditions because tickets may be costly.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Garlic said:


> Maybe I'm just insecure and paranoid, but I can't help feeling judgement coming down on me from other audience members - what is he doing here? He's not even dressed properly, doesn't even talk properly, doesn't even know the rules, who let that oik into our special club?


I'm the opposite - walking the opera, I can't help feeling judgement coming down from me on other audience members - what are they doing here? How many famous performances of the opera they heard before coming to see it here? Do they even know all middle names of Bellini and Puccini? Surely they're just some Netrebko fans who don't know anything about history of opera and true greatness! Who let these oiks into my special club?!

Then I take my seat and whip the oiks sitting behind me with enormous plumage attached to my glamorous hat.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Ralfy said:


> It is in given poor economic conditions because tickets may be costly.


In the kind of economy you are alluding to, so is spending $300 per capita on lunch along with a bottle of wine, or other obvious and "unnecessary" expenses. At that juncture in the economy, a prospective groom going in hock for several months' worth of his salary for a diamond engagement / wedding ring is being screamingly decadent bourgeois, as is also his engaged who is expecting that diamond ring.

Hell, the person in that economy still spending hundreds of dollars to acquire a tattoo is also then a member of the flamingly decadent bourgeois.

Now that I think of the cost of a seat to a not-special sports event in the states, all sports events attendees are decadent bourgeois.

But nooo, instead of singling out the people who pay THOUSANDS for a box seat at a football game, you single out those who spend hundreds on a box seat at the opera.

Tsk, Tsk.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

More via reputation than in actuality. The price to see an opera is no more, and often rather less, than the cost of a rock concert. Top tier seats are in the hundreds of dollars for the Met, but top tier seats are similarly priced for a big name concert (say Bruce Springsteen or Nine Inch Nails); if you can handle standing room, main floor seats are like $20 and family circle are around $15 which is as cheap as nosebleed seats for a smaller name band.
So it's not price that is the factor, it's the perception of it being old, fuddy duddy stuff that only rich people like. Art has that too, a bit, but not nearly to the same degree -- there's plenty of young, less affluent people at your local art museum on any given day.
Met Live in HD has helped but more needs to be done to show that opera is for everyone, and it's not strictly the province of the 1%ers


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

Oreb said:


> Keep in mind, however, the wise words of Frank Zappa at the end of (I think) Burnt Weeny Sandwich: "Everyone here is wearing a uniform: don't kid yourself."


Wise words indeed. Thanks to Frank, I _still_ don't eat yellow snow.

To answer the query, it's so decadent and bourgeois - I shelled out about €800 for the season to see 16 operas/42 concerts. Compare that with sport or rock concerts etc.
As for attire, the exceptions to the rule would be Glyndbourne, which is "formal evening" and opening night for the season at some opera houses. At least in my experience.
Everywhere else? It's about dressing practically for the weather etc. Many attend straight from work.

Snobbery is common but not amongst each other. We just moan about Katherine Jenkins and how come everyone on X-Factor is hopeless as singing:lol: The same way that classical music lovers moan about Andre Rieu (Where _are_ the dudes in his string section?)

Your good taste in music is on display just by turning up.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Maybe it's your breath, Garlic?


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Couac Addict said:


> As for attire, the exceptions to the rule would be Glyndbourne, which is "formal evening"


but you won't get rejected by ushers if you're not abiding. However they might zero-in on you if you're trying to upgrade to the best seats in the house and you're not in white tie attire 

just this week I was put off by pop concert ticket prices and figured I get more value from a £30 opera ticket, which is usually my budget. I've never paid more than £80 for a ticket but I sat in £200 seats. Just smile and act like you belong and most people won't look twice. Or if they do you might get a posh date


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Decadence in a society is associated with complication and elaboration past the point of diminishing returns. I know way too little about opera to know if it fits.


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## HumphreyAppleby (Apr 11, 2013)

Yes, people seem to have the impression that everybody at the opera is Frasier and Niles Crane: wealthy elitists who go just because all their wealthy elitist friends do to. Even my beloved _Yes, Minister_ saw Humphrey chastised for going to the opera, and Covent Garden's funding nearly cut ("The barbarians at the gate, the thin end of wedge" Although it did lead to a rather funny bit about the government paying for Puccini and Wagner- subsidizing the Axis Powers). But when you can get people to abandon their preconceptions and live into the world of opera (it is one world, really, with many continents and countries), then they almost invariably find that not only do they like the music, not only do they love the voices, but they understand why we all have such a seemingly bizarre, fanatical devotion to opera. And quite often they say, "I see why pop music sometimes seems rather trivial" (I say sometimes, because there's a huge amount of it that is anything but).

If anybody gives you a hard time at the opera, tell them to sod off. Ask them why they're at the opera, and they'll probably tell you it's for some incredible artistic experience about true love. And then ask them whether true love means snobbery and persiflage. If you feel conspicuous among all these wealthy people (Lord knows, I sometimes do) go and see a Puccini opera, and if anybody gives you a hard time, ask them why a seamstress with tuberculosis is good enough for them but you aren't (I say this in ignorance of your financial condition, but people tend to judge that sort of thing by the clothes, so if you're not dressed the way everybody else is...). Go because you want to see the beautiful opera, and ignore anybody who acts like you don't have every right to do so.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

you know, people often give you a hard time at other types of concerts - as in, you didn't like this band before they were cool, or this band has sold out and is therefore *****, or your tastes are not obscure enough or you can't name all the past members of the band off the top of your head etc.


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## HumphreyAppleby (Apr 11, 2013)

Very true. Football fans argue over players just as much as opera fans over singers, there's just as much snobbery in the visual arts, somehow, musicals are okay... There are all kinds of double standards with opera.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

HumphreyAppleby said:


> Very true. Football fans argue over players just as much as opera fans over singers, there's just as much snobbery in the visual arts, somehow, musicals are okay... There are all kinds of double standards with opera.


Football hooligans have maimed and killed fans of the opposing teams. An aria after a (staged) stabbing is real fun by comparison.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

deggial said:


> you know, people often give you a hard time at other types of concerts - as in, you didn't like this band before they were cool, or this band has sold out and is therefore *****, or your tastes are not obscure enough or you can't name all the past members of the band off the top of your head etc.


It's tough to get away with that in opera. "I liked Mozart before he was cool" only works if you're the Wandering Jew.


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

For some in the audience, opera is just an arena - old as dirt, and why not. I don't care.

There are genuine opera fans richer and poorer. It's just that the latter are easier to find - buy a ticket to the inexpensive seats a couple of times, be early, and make an effort to get into conversations, especially with the people that you'll see on multiple occasions. You will find a wealth of considerable opinions, amusing anecdotes, and genuinely valid critical expertise that you will _not_ be able to find in any publication.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

rgz said:


> "I liked Mozart before he was cool" only works if you're the Wandering Jew.


oops, you found me out


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

First, if we are talking about decadence, the way a lot of people spend their time: chugging beer and watching TV, or wiggling their hips in "da club" while high on something, is far more decadent than immersing yourself in high culture.

Second, why care so much about the opinion of total strangers? If you love opera and someone believes you are a snob because of it, he obviously does not know you nor care about you (unless you really are a snob), so why care about his opinion of you? The same is true in reverse: why should you care about the judgmental attitude of any other member of the audience, even if it is real, not imagined? You have obviously nothing in common with him/them.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

When the 'new' Bayreuth opened after the war, Knappersbusch turned to Wieland Wagner and said: "Would your grandfather have approved of this?" He meant the sight of so many well heeled people coming to the opera - only the rich could afford the price of tickets. One problem is that opera is self-defeating. It is so costly to put on that the price of tickets is usually beyond that of an awful lot of people. So only the better off tend to go. However a form of salvation may be at hand. Modern technology and broadcasting. I am going to make my first visit to see and Metropolitan Opera relay next week of Falstaff at the local cinema. It might not be the same as actually being there. But better than nothing. And a whole lot cheaper!

Btw, at the moment I am feeling very decadent having just listened to the last act of Tristan! :tiphat:


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

DavidA said:


> When the 'new' Bayreuth opened after the war, Knappersbusch turned to Wieland Wagner and said: "Would your grandfather have approved of this?" He meant the sight of so many well heeled people coming to the opera - only the rich could afford the price of tickets.


Ever compared Bayreuth's prices against Salzburg's? Tickets to two entire performances in every Bayreuth summer handed out to members of workers' unions - is this really so common?


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

DavidA said:


> It is so costly to put on that the price of tickets is usually beyond that of an awful lot of people. So only the better off tend to go


it's not, though. At ROH only the floor tickets are really expensive and that's where the better off are clustered. The rest of the seats are taken by "commoners" and the acoustics is great even in the amphitheatre.


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## Freddie von Rost (Dec 3, 2013)

Garlic said:


> Don't get me wrong, I love opera. But sometimes it feels like a secret club for people who have made it, a way of showing to others how successful and cultured you are. I'm not denying that people genuinely love the music, but it seems to be a bonus rather than the whole point for some. Maybe I'm just insecure and paranoid, but I can't help feeling judgement coming down on me from other audience members - what is he doing here? He's not even dressed properly, doesn't even talk properly, doesn't even know the rules, who let that oik into our special club?
> 
> Am I being grossly unfair? I know I'm not the only one who feels this way, but is it totally unnecessary? Is anyone who wants to get into opera welcomed with open arms, or is there a certain standard to maintain? Should some people stay away altogether? Is this a peculiarly British problem/non-problem?


Ticket prices at mid-level are similarly to rock/pop concerts. You pay your money and you enjoy the music you like. 
Yes, some people should definitely stay away. Coughers/mobile phone texters/facebook checkers/talkers etc.


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## HumphreyAppleby (Apr 11, 2013)

PetrB said:


> Football hooligans have maimed and killed fans of the opposing teams. An aria after a (staged) stabbing is real fun by comparison.


The days of the opera riots are long behind us. Maybe it would be more popular if we brought them back.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

It seems to me that money and striving for social status is a reality that exists behind the whole of the Arts... not merely opera. In spite of that, the Arts are more democratic... more egalitarian than they have ever been. I have access to more art, music, and literature than the wealthiest aristocrats of a couple of centuries ago.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

In recent years the trend in my experience has been to dress more casually when going to concerts or opera. Not everyone is dressed to the nines but at the same time I haven't come across anyone who appears to be dressed down. In terms of cost, big acts like Springsteen (as rgz noted), Madonna, Bon Jovi et al would in my reckoning cost more than opera. So too premier sports evens like grand finals.

I am not so much concerned about opera being elite and more about the cut of funding it gets when looking at the overall funding for classical music. Instrumental music is more popular, especially orchestral. But due to its very nature - eg. costumes, sets, extras, production costs - opera costs vastly more than putting on an orchestral concert, not to speak of a chamber concert. So in these financially restricted times yes it can be seen as 'decadent' - but the word I'd use is just costly - and I think that the debate over opera's place in modern society will continue, unless we hit some El Dorado in terms of economic growth. I'm not holding my breath for that, but if anything the main way I access opera is through recordings, I have rarely experienced it live.


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## HumphreyAppleby (Apr 11, 2013)

SiegendesLicht said:


> First, if we are talking about decadence, the way a lot of people spend their time: chugging beer and watching TV, or wiggling their hips in "da club" while high on something, is far more decadent than immersing yourself in high culture.


As a lover of (some) TV, Hey! There's some television that I think qualifies as art, principally _Buffy the Vampire Slayer_ (judging it by the name is like judging Wagner by the under-chin beard) and the best episodes of the _Star Trek_ series. Of course, these kinds of shows aren't popular, so they aren't so much exceptions to your observation as they are anomalies that show that you can't lump all TV under one umbrella (or even under one metaphor, it seems).

Anyway, I agree with the rest. Getting high by drugs is cool but getting high on opera is square... What a world it is sometimes...


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Those kinds of shows aren't popular? _Buffy_ ran for 7 seasons and had a spin off that ran for 5. _Star Trek_ has had _6_ spin-offs and a dozen movies! They're preposterously popular!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

ahammel said:


> Those kinds of shows aren't popular? _Buffy_ ran for 7 seasons and had a spin off that ran for 5. _Star Trek_ has had _6_ spin-offs and a dozen movies! They're preposterously popular!


You just depressed John Adams. Nixon in China is still waiting for its first paid use in a beer commercial.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

KenOC said:


> You just depressed John Adams. Nixon in China is still waiting for its first paid use in a beer commercial.


The rats begin to chew the sheets...


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

You don't get all that many decadent bourgeois people in Lowestoft. Around me at the Marina Theatre, I see grey-haired people in winter coats, always ready to respond to my conversation with a 'yes, isn't it lovely?' We are solid, respectable bourgeois, I'd have you know.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

One can safely say that opera can be considered bourgeois, (i.e. pertaining to middle-class, but rather more nuanced), but I disagree that it is decadent, although that might be said for particular productions.

Decadence is all around us, and is largely responsible for the current financial and cultural woes in Europe, with governments being among the most decadent. I could argue the point that opera is one of _the least _decadent things in western societies.

decadent:
1. Being in a state of decline or decay.
2. Marked by or providing unrestrained gratification; self-indulgent.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

Garlic said:


> ...I can't help feeling judgement coming down on me from other audience members - what is he doing here? He's not even dressed properly, doesn't even talk properly, doesn't even know the rules, who let that oik into our special club?


When actually _attending_ an opera, I sort of blend into the role- wear a suit, attend to details of appearance, etc. [I _am_ middle aged- I have a couple of pretty nice suits at this time of my life.] However, when attending opera _seminars_, I attend them dressed the way I normally dress for a weekend afternoon. *That* is when some people try to "flip a negative vibe" my way.

I don't care. I just don't care. I remember attending one dressed in my Chicago Symphony Orchestra T-shirt. On another occasion, I wore a Philadelphia Phillies hoodie. I always felt that any stares and whispers on account of that was more of a self-indictment of those who would do so than an indictment of me.

In fact, if you're ever at an opera seminar, look for the person wearing the Northern Illinois Football sweatshirt. He'll be easy-to-find in that sea of suits. You might also find that he'll be one of the few ones actually _holding a note-pad and taking notes_. If you approach him and start a conversation, he might not be able to hold forth about last season's trip across the pond, and how _marvelous_ Bryn sounded at The Garden... but you just might find that he'd be able to share some relevant original thoughts about the topic actually under discussion that afternoon.

I think I'd enjoy meeting you.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

deggial said:


> oops, you found me out


You've got NOTHING on Mel Brooks as _The Two Thousand Year Old Man_, as interviewed by Carl Reiner

_The Two Thousand Year Old Man_ -- You can start after the credits @ 01'20''








https://www.youtube.comC/watch?v=EQWDxrKS1Z4

[P.s. The origin of song, musicals and opera is revealed near the end of the link No. 1]


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

HumphreyAppleby said:


> Getting high by drugs is cool but getting high on opera is square... What a world it is sometimes...


on the other hand getting high on opera makes you less of a conformist.


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## Ralfy (Jul 19, 2010)

PetrB said:


> In the kind of economy you are alluding to, so is spending $300 per capita on lunch along with a bottle of wine, or other obvious and "unnecessary" expenses. At that juncture in the economy, a prospective groom going in hock for several months' worth of his salary for a diamond engagement / wedding ring is being screamingly decadent bourgeois, as is also his engaged who is expecting that diamond ring.
> 
> Hell, the person in that economy still spending hundreds of dollars to acquire a tattoo is also then a member of the flamingly decadent bourgeois.
> 
> ...


FWIW, I'm not referring to any economy in particular, but if I were to look at the global economy, then even those things you mentioned are also not affordable.

From what I remember, only around 15 pct of the world's population earn between $10 and $20 or more a day. The rest earn less. Around 60 pct earn around $2 or $3 a day. I don't think that amount will even cover basic needs.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Garlic said:


> Don't get me wrong, I love opera. But sometimes it feels like a secret club for people who have made it, a way of showing to others how successful and cultured you are.


Not for me it ain't. I'm not very successful & I'm not very cultured. I just adore the voices, the music & the theatre which combine to produce something like no other.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Ralfy said:


> FWIW, I'm not referring to any economy in particular, but if I were to look at the global economy, then even those things you mentioned are also not affordable.
> 
> From what I remember, only around 15 pct of the world's population earn between $10 and $20 or more a day. The rest earn less. Around 60 pct earn around $2 or $3 a day. I don't think that amount will even cover basic needs.


Then, by comparison all of Western societies are "decadent," and I would prefer to think of pointing to the family in the lower / lowest of western income brackets with three children, each child with a pair of $100 tennis shoes in their wardrobe, a rather costly big-screen television in their home, before I'd point to that tiny percentile who attend the opera


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Like church, opera is a decadent bourgeois pastime for some and a religious experience for others.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Where I live, the decadent bourgeois pastime seems to be buying and selling houses, talking about house prices and comparing real estate agents.

When I'm stuck in the middle of those conversations, I feel like screaming "get a life!", preferably one involving a lot of coloratura, handsome baritones, love triangles, ridiculous disguises and plenty of grand passion.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

> Yes, people seem to have the impression that everybody at the opera is Frasier and Niles Crane: wealthy elitists who go just because all their wealthy elitist friends do to.


I thought those characters really did appreciate opera.

I do agree that the elitist charge is best leveled at those who just go for the status of it.


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## Oreb (Aug 8, 2013)

All this 'decadent bourgeois' talk is *so* 60s. Honestly, worrying about being bourgeois is only slightly less bourgeois than spending time deciding who else merits the description, if you know what I mean.

I am middle class. I venture to suggest that the great majority of regular posters here are, also.

I certainly have bourgeois values - I like owning nice things, I have a mortgage, I am married to a person of the opposite sex (and only one of them), I dig the rule of law...

As for 'decadent', well I guess I lack the resources and, these days, the energy to over-indulge.

In other words,

_In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit._

Let's not pretend that's the worst thing one could be


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

GreenMamba said:


> I thought those characters really did appreciate opera.


And, IIRC, they held poseurs in great contempt.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

Yeah there are actually some clever opera jokes in _Frasier_. Someone on the writing staff was legitimately into it, and Niles and Frasier did in fact enjoy it.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Alexander said:


> ...that it is decadent, although that might be said for particular productions.


That is my main issue with opera, and I resolve it by simply avoiding those operas with such content.



> Decadence is all around us,


For sure, just look at Hollywood, or the pop music industry.


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

When I was growing up I knew too many Italian-American barbers playing opera in their barbershop radio for me to ever consider the 'elitist' parvenus as being the dominant audience for this art.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

I think opera is sheer opulent decadence, but what is wrong with decadence? Do we have to be licking the salt mines 24/7?


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## Ralfy (Jul 19, 2010)

PetrB said:


> Then, by comparison all of Western societies are "decadent," and I would prefer to think of pointing to the family in the lower / lowest of western income brackets with three children, each child with a pair of $100 tennis shoes in their wardrobe, a rather costly big-screen television in their home, before I'd point to that tiny percentile who attend the opera


You're right, but as I said, I was looking at the issue globally, and the percentage of people that earn less than $10 a day is much larger than "the lower/lowest of western income brackets."


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