# Round One of Three: Abscheulicher. Videos by Ludwig and Studer



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)




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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Ludwig for sure. Studer isn't bad but when faced with such mastery, such radiance then what choice is there. I don't know the provenance of the Ludwig video but I think she's better here than on the Klemperer recorfding.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Awkward aria and I agree with Tsaras as to Ludwig’s “mastery.” I do like Studer, though her voice lacks a strong low register. But Ludwig is blessed with lustrous tone throughout. Moreover, she’s pretty good at lip syncing.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

The glorious Christa gets my vote. Effortless brilliance.


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

My vote goes to Studer. I enjoy her voice more even if her low notes were on the weak end. While Ludwig seems a little more comfortable and at ease with the aria’s demands, I don’t detect any particular “radiance” from her. “Radiance” is not a term that would cross my mind as a requirement for the aria. It’s not a Miss Universe Contest, after all. And Ludwig is unfortunately lip syncing in her video so not really a contender.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

ALT said:


> My vote goes to Studer. I enjoy her voice more even if her low notes were on the weak end. While Ludwig seems a little more comfortable and at ease with the aria’s demands, I don’t detect any particular “radiance” from her. “Radiance” is not a term that would cross my mind as a requirement for the aria. It’s not a Miss Universe Contest, after all. And Ludwig is unfortunately lip syncing in her video so not really a contender.


Radiant, adjective

1, Sending out light, shining or glowing brightly
2. (of a person or their expression) clearly emanating great joy, love or health
3. (of an emotion or quality) emanating powerfully from someone or something.

I'd say radiant was a very apt description of Ludwig's performance.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Easy. Ludwig. I found hers more sincere. I thought Studer was too busy attempting "acting".


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

nina foresti said:


> Easy. Ludwig. I found hers more sincere. I thought Studer was too busy attempting "acting".


If you were a singer in more contemporaneous times than Ludwig ever was and a director asked you to move or act in certain ways as a condition of your participation in a show, that’s exactly what you’d do.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Though neither singer would be my ideal choice for the role, both give creditable performances. My taste favors Ludwig for the fuller tone throughout her range (and as a mezzo she's actually stronger and freer at the high extreme than soprano Studer, who sounds strained). Studer sounds thin and girlish, more like a Marzelline than a Leonore (did the woman really have to sing _everything?)._ I also found her histrionic carryings on irritating to watch, while Ludwig adhered to the first principle of operatic acting - move when and as you _need_ to - and was more convincing in male disguise.


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

For those of you so sensitive to and judgmental of Studer’s acting in this piece, take this:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ALT said:


> For those of you so sensitive to and judgmental of Studer’s acting in this piece, take this:


Poor Mozart. In both senses.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

I remember watching it some time ago and thinking "Is she having a seizure or something?"


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Christa Ludwig began her career in the town my sister had as her home theater: Darmstadt.


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Christa Ludwig began her career in the town my sister had as her home theater: Darmstadt.


Didn’t Studer, too? Or was it Dortmund?


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Yes, indeed, Christa Ludwig (the former wife of Walter Berry), for sure. Studer gives this difficult aria an amount of EFFORT, but the overall result doesn't seem to express, what former sopranos could accomplish. Along that, latter line ... Rethberg and others did REALLY well, as did Janowitz, in a video recording with Jon Vickers, et. al. Possibly, the late Eileen Farrell had a recording, also ... and there should be other comparisons.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

89Koechel said:


> Yes, indeed, Christa Ludwig (the former wife of Walter Berry), for sure. Studer gives this difficult aria an amount of EFFORT, but the overall result doesn't seem to express, what former sopranos could accomplish. Along that, latter line ... Rethberg and others did REALLY well, as did Janowitz, in a video recording with Jon Vickers, et. al. Possibly, the late Eileen Farrell had a recording, also ... and there should be other comparisons.


Yes, but I already have 8 contestants and I had to draw the line somewhere. Farrell is magnificent but she is in a lot lately and she always does well but never wins. I put in Studer because she has a devoted following second only to Callas I think.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Yes, but I already have 8 contestants and I had to draw the line somewhere. Farrell is magnificent but she is in a lot lately and she always does well but never wins. I put in Studer because she has a devoted following second only to Callas I think.


It'll be interesting to see which eight make the grade. I especially like Dernesch, whom I saw in the role in the 1970s. I think her recording with Karajan the best thing she ever did on disc. And, yes, radiant is the word I would use to describe both her singing and her stage presence.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> It'll be interesting to see which eight make the grade. I especially like Dernesch, whom I saw in the role in the 1970s. I think her recording with Karajan the best thing she ever did on disc. And, yes, radiant is the word I would use to describe both her singing and her stage presence.


I have some heavy hitters and you will like at least one.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

I like both ladies, but I voted for Ludwig here. There is something in her voice. 
Several years ago, she was alive and in good fit then, I saw Christa Ludwig's interview on TV. What an interesting person she was!


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I think we need a little time-out. Temporarily closed for discussion in the moderating team.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

A number of posts not meeting the TC guidelines, as well as posts reacting to them, as well as posts reacting to those reactions, have been deleted. The thread is now once more open for discussion.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

ALT said:


> Lip-synced films, no matter how “well done”, are fakery.


I don't get it. Are you saying we have to give more credit to singers who can sing well while acting busily, cause it's harder to achieve?


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

hammeredklavier said:


> I don't get it. Are you saying we have to give more credit to singers who can sing well while acting busily, cause it's harder to achieve?


No. What I said was that _*Lip-synced films, no matter how “well done”, are fakery.*_ I hope I worded it better this time.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ALT said:


> No. What I said was that _*Lip-synced films, no matter how “well done”, are fakery.*_ I hope I worded it better this time.


I believe the problem people are having here is with the meaning and significance you attach to the word "fakery." It seems intended as a disparagement, or as a disqualification. How the remark is relevant to a comparison of singing is unclear.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Woodduck said:


> How the remark is relevant to a comparison of singing is unclear.


This. The thread (like its companions) is about comparison of singing. The videos are only posted to allow easy access to the singing performances. Continued discussion of the videos (including whether they are lip synced) rather than the singing is off-topic. Let's please focus in this (and similar) threads on the singing, and not on the videos.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Art Rock said:


> This. The thread (like its companions) is about comparison of singing. The videos are only posted to allow easy access to the singing performances. Continued discussion of the videos (including whether they are lip synced) rather than the singing is off-topic. Let's please focus in this (and similar) threads on the singing, and not on the videos.


Art:You said: "The videos are only posted to allow easy access to the singing performances." 
Actually, for me, they are more of a detriment as I prefer only to listen to the voice I am judging without extraneous activity such as viewing videos.
I admit to sometimes being a bit slow but why show videos of singers and compare them if the practice is off limits to begin with (something which I never knew because they are constantly all over the threads) unless, for some reason, you are just simply banning the specific topic of lip-synching on this particular thread.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I'm not banning anything. I just said that I think most people here would agree that these videos are included in these threads to allow people to *listen* to the different singers. Focusing on other aspects than the singing (like whether there is lip-synching, whether the costume is suitable, whether the hairstyle is fine, and whatever people may come up with next) distracts from the purpose of including these videos. And even more so if this leads to prolonged discussions of these side matters.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Art Rock said:


> I'm not banning anything. I just said that I think most people here would agree that these videos are included in these threads to allow people to *listen* to the different singers. Focusing on other aspects than the singing (like whether there is lip-synching, whether the costume is suitable, whether the hairstyle is fine, and whatever people may come up with next) distracts from the purpose of including these videos. And even more so if this leads to prolonged discussions of these side matters.


I agree, so being human nature, and knowing that these issues are likely to come into the act at some point, why not just delete the videos and let us hear what we are supposed to hear -- the voices?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> I agree, so being human nature, and knowing that these issues are likely to come into the act at some point, why not just delete the videos and let us hear what we are supposed to hear -- the voices?


Speaking only for myself here, I like seeing the videos. I simply listen to the singing first without watching, as, I gather, do you. Watching the performance can be an added pleasure (or not).


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Speaking only for myself here, I like seeing the videos. I simply listen to the singing first without watching, as, I gather, do you. Watching the performance can be an added pleasure (or not).


 I sometimes must use videos as there are singers from more recent years where I can't find examples of them singing except from live video recordings. I am glad Art Rock is trying to keep this discussion from dive bombing like it did a couple of days ago.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Next time, you make it clear in the OP, "whose singing you like best?" (rather than "who do you like best?"), so that ALT has no excuse to harp on about the acting.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

hammeredklavier said:


> Next time, you make it clear in the OP, "whose singing you like best?" (rather than "who do you like best?"),


Reasonable suggestion.



> so that ALT has no excuse to harp on about the acting.


What provoked the discord was a couple of us remarking on Studer's acting. It would be absurd to have to declare such remarks off limits. We just have to recognize them as incidental to the subject and not take offense - or give offense - at someone criticizing something we like. Many irritated exchanges, useless debates and derailed discusions happen on the forum when people see that others' personal tastes conflict with their own, take it personally, and respond by actually making it personal. It's true, though, that some remarks critical of music and performers really are provocations, or can easily be read that way. That's why we need someone occupying the rather thankless position of moderator - someone who can step in, delete the posts everyone spent precious time composing, and thus refocus everyone's annoyance on him, like a savior taking on himself the sins of the world.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Reasonable suggestion.
> 
> 
> What provoked the discord was a couple of us remarking on Studer's acting. It would be absurd to have to declare such remarks off limits. We just have to recognize them as incidental to the subject and not take offense - or give offense - at someone criticizing something we like. Many irritated exchanges, useless debates and derailed discusions happen on the forum when people see that others' personal tastes conflict with their own, take it personally, and respond by actually making it personal. It's true, though, that some remarks critical of music and performers really are provocations, or can easily be read that way. That's why we need someone occupying the rather thankless posiion of moderator - someone who can step in, delete the posts everyone spent precious time composing, and thus refocus everyone's annoyance on him, like a savior taking on himself the sins of the world.


For myself I keep it fun for me by steering clear of some singers that I feel strongly about that the group don't like. I think I will avoid Studer in future contests that she might be a good contestant for just to avoid strong feelings.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> For myself I keep it fun for me by steering clear of some singers that I feel strongly about that the group don't like. I think I will avoid Studer in future contests that she might be a good contestant for just to avoid strong feelings.


A wise decision, John.


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

Seattleoperafan said:


> For myself I keep it fun for me by steering clear of some singers that I feel strongly about that the group don't like. I think I will avoid Studer in future contests that she might be a good contestant for just to avoid strong feelings.


Except you will continue facing “strong feelings” one way or another, Studer or no Studer. To use the reality (or potential for) ”strong feelings”, which each and every single human being shares, as a basis or excuse for general intimidation or for targeting and censoring a specific singer is a disingenuous and cowardly act/tactic. That’s because there is something called freedom of speech, in both private and public squares. If you choose to censor someone, someone else will pick up where you left off. That’s how it works, and should.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

ALT said:


> Except you will continue facing “strong feelings” one way or another, Studer or no Studer. To use the reality (or potential for) ”strong feelings”, which each and every single human being shares, as a basis or excuse for general intimidation or for targeting and censoring a specific singer is a disingenuous and cowardly act/tactic. That’s because there is something called freedom of speech, in both private and public squares. If you choose to censor someone, someone else will pick up where you left off. That’s how it works, and should.


She is brought up plenty in contests she is not in. I just want to avoid my threads getting shut down by excessive nastiness like the last one with Studer, who I liked, so I am doing my little bit. I've never had a thread shut down before! Apparently several members complained about all the ugliness from one source directed at Woodduck to Art Rock our moderator. It is a shame as I had her in at least 5 upcoming contests I had to redo now. I am sure she would have gotten good reviews but the potential for ugliness is not worth it. It is no different from me not putting anything but early Sutherland in contests as nothing good can come of it in this group as I have consistently learned. Too many strong strong negative feelings I'd rather not hear from good friends. She always gets respect early in her career so I stick to that. For the most part I am the one putting the effort into these many contests and although I try very hard to give the audience what it wants I have editing power in the initial posts I want us all to have fun here. You are always free not to participate in the contests I create if you aren't happy with the way I do them.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

ALT said:


> If you choose to censor someone, someone else will pick up where you left off.


sounds a bit scary.. is there another ALTernative to this?


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