# Allan Pettersson



## messiaenfanatic

I have recently finished listening to Petterson's Symphony No. 8 and I am listening to Symphony No. 10 right now. I do not understand why this composer is so under recorded? Is it because his works are dark and moody sounding? His works definitely have a tonal center to them. I find Symhony No. 8 of Pettersson's to definitely be one of my favorite symphonies; that is No. 8 in the middle half of the 20th Century. I need to listen to every symphony of his. Does anyone else enjoy listening to Pettersson's works? If so which ones?


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## Ephemerid

I'm oblivious-- I don't think I've heard of him before-- I'm curious to hear him now though!


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## messiaenfanatic

Look him up on wikipedia.org. Fantastic encylopedic website! iTunes has a sampling of his works, but not nearly enough. They need all of his symphonies on there, so more people will want to listen to his works. I have a tendecy to listen to 20th Century Scandinavian composers, along with the Eastern Europeans . He is definitely one of the unknown master symphonists of the 20th Century.


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## Ephemerid

He sounds interesting-- I'll have to return to check him out (I've spent WAYYYY too much money already this week  )


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## Rondo

Ive never heard of him, either. But, you can almost never go wrong with Scandinavian composers. Quite the legacy.


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## Guest

Unknown, eh?

Hmmmm. In some circles, Pettersson has replaced (or at least is replacing) Shostakovich as "the greatest symphonist of the twentieth century."

Yeah, sounds like hyperbole to me, too. But I wouldn't call Pettersson "unknown." Everyone's unknown to somebody. I suppose there are people who haven't heard of Pauline Oliveros, too (whose _The Wanderer_ I'm listening to right now), but I wouldn't call her "unknown."

Fame _is_ fleeting, though, I'll give you that, and fickle. And probably several other alliterative adjectives, too.


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## messiaenfanatic

I guess I was trying to say that Allan Pettersson is not quite in the mainstream of 20th Century Symphonic Composers. He is in some circles, but not in the main circles. That is my own opinion.


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## LvB

While I don't see Pettersson as superior to Shostakovich, his best symphonies are certainly in Shostakovich's league. I would especially recommend the 7th, which is an astonishing piece by any standard. Pettersson, like Havergal Brian, is basically a writer of symphonies; everything else is secondary (even his second violin concerto is basically a symphony; there's not much difference in scoring and approach between the so-called concerto and the 16th symphony, which has a concertoesque saxophone part). This is not a common situation, and I can't think of many similar composers (even Bruckner and Mahler, whose symphonies dominate their output, created major works in unrelated forms). If Pettersson is your kind of composer check out the Cpo release of his complete symphonies, which is quite reasonably priced and contains some excellent performances. Otherwise, the best starting point is Antal Dorati's recording of the 7th; it was Dorati's premiere of this piece which really put Pettersson on the musical map.


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## JTech82

From what I've heard, which isn't much. His music is very dark and grim, but it seems like this is the only mood it portrays. It doesn't really branch out into anything else, but he was a very honest composer. Probably one of the most honest I've ever heard. You can almost _feel_ his live experiences in his music, which I can't say for many of them.

I'm still not quite sure how to take him. Perhaps, I'll ask for his complete symphony cycle on CPO for Christmas.


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## JTech82

After listening to his 7th Smphony today, it is official I do not like Pettersson. His pieces aren't that dynamic and lack any kind of lyrical quality. Not my cup of tea.

I can deal with a dark piece, but there has to be light at the end of the tunnel sometime and with Pettersson there doesn't seem to be much of this at all.

His work was truly autobiographical and completely honest, but I find him to be a little too honest.


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## Guest

Not sure how pitches, rhythms, and harmonies can be autobiographical.

Forget everything you've ever heard about Pettersson's life. Now listen to a symphony of his. He uses small(ish) cells, which he repeats. Less development than one would expect in a symphony. Well, unless the symphony were by Glass.

Quite melodic, if not lyrical. A preference for lower ranges of instruments, though that often, as in the seventh symphony, means that when the higher ranges are used, you really notice it. And there's another thing. Contrast. While there's a certain similarity of sound overall, there's a fair amount of contrast in Pettersson, though since there's that repetition of small cells thing, the contrasts tend to be between sections rather inside of them. And maybe "sections" is the wrong word. Pettersson will set up contrasting blocks of material. That may sound like his music is like Varèse, but nothing could be further from the truth. More like Bruckner, except of course that Bruckner's cells are incredibly long. (Someone observed once, I wish I could remember who, that given the length of Bruckner's cells, if he had developed as much as Brahms, his symphonies would be much longer than they are. Or, conversely, if Brahms had used cells as long as Bruckner's, his symphonies would have turned out longer than Bruckner's.)

Maybe that's what describes Pettersson: cells the length of Brahms in structures the length of Bruckner.


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## JTech82

some guy said:


> Not sure how pitches, rhythms, and harmonies can be autobiographical.
> 
> Forget everything you've ever heard about Pettersson's life. Now listen to a symphony of his. He uses small(ish) cells, which he repeats. Less development than one would expect in a symphony. Well, unless the symphony were by Glass.
> 
> Quite melodic, if not lyrical. A preference for lower ranges of instruments, though that often, as in the seventh symphony, means that when the higher ranges are used, you really notice it. And there's another thing. Contrast. While there's a certain similarity of sound overall, there's a fair amount of contrast in Pettersson, though since there's that repetition of small cells thing, the contrasts tend to be between sections rather inside of them. And maybe "sections" is the wrong word. Pettersson will set up contrasting blocks of material. That may sound like his music is like Varèse, but nothing could be further from the truth. More like Bruckner, except of course that Bruckner's cells are incredibly long. (Someone observed once, I wish I could remember who, that given the length of Bruckner's cells, if he had developed as much as Brahms, his symphonies would be much longer than they are. Or, conversely, if Brahms had used cells as long as Bruckner's, his symphonies would have turned out longer than Bruckner's.)
> 
> Maybe that's what describes Pettersson: cells the length of Brahms in structures the length of Bruckner.


Well, that doesn't change my opinion of his music. We can dance around with technical terms all we want to, but ultimately I'm not too impressed with his work. It stays in mood and doesn't stray far from it. One ominous piece after another. Quite boring actually.

Bottomline, I don't like his music.


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## Guest

JTech82 said:


> Well, that doesn't change my opinion of his music. We can dance around with technical terms all we want to, but ultimately I'm not too impressed with his work. It stays in mood and doesn't stray far from it. One ominous piece after another. Quite boring actually.
> 
> Bottomline, I don't like his music.


Well, um, thanks for sharing?

Point is, I wasn't trying to change your or anyone's opinion about his music. I was trying to describe it without dancing around with vague terms about his psychology (or ours). Or having recourse to moods and such. (Ominous? That's not what I hear.)

Boring, as you doubtless already know, is one of those kinds of words that describes a response, not the thing being responded to. If it described the music, then everyone who listens to it will be bored. But not everyone is.

Your not liking his music is probably important to you. And no one would fault you for not liking it. No one reasonable would. But it doesn't really add to a discussion of the music, does it?


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## JTech82

some guy said:


> Well, um, thanks for sharing?
> 
> Point is, I wasn't trying to change your or anyone's opinion about his music. I was trying to describe it without dancing around with vague terms about his psychology (or ours). Or having recourse to moods and such. (Ominous? That's not what I hear.)
> 
> Boring, as you doubtless already know, is one of those kinds of words that describes a response, not the thing being responded to. If it described the music, then everyone who listens to it will be bored. But not everyone is.
> 
> Your not liking his music is probably important to you. And no one would fault you for not liking it. No one reasonable would. But it doesn't really add to a discussion of the music, does it?


All I said was I don't like him and I gave specifics as to why I don't like him. Yes, I find Pettersson's music boring in the sense that it's not enjoyable for me. I told you how his music sounded to me and if I don't dig it, then I don't dig it.

No need to take things so personally. If you like his music, then go knock yourself out and enjoy it for what you think it is and I'll happily listen to somebody else who I enjoy more.

There's many colors in the musical rainbow for us to choose from. As far as this helping the conversation, I think it does, because I have a difference of opinion than yours, so yes, I think it creates a better balance of things.


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## Aramis

I listened to his 7th symphony fragment on YouTube today, just after reading this thread. It's interesting. I'd love to find out more, but I was in my CDs shop already and there is nothing of his music


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## JTech82

Aramis said:


> I listened to his 7th symphony fragment on YouTube today, just after reading this thread. It's interesting. I'd love to find out more, but I was in my CDs shop already and there is nothing of his music


Pettersson's music isn't widely recorded and I can certainly see why.  Take it easy there, Some Guy.

Having said that, you can find a complete symphony cycle on CPO Records for pretty hefty price tag that I'm not willing to pay.

If you like a one mood composer, then have fun, but if you enjoy a variety of emotions in your composer, then Pettersson is not your man.


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## Guest

JTech82 said:


> No need to take things so personally. If you like his music, then go knock yourself out and enjoy it for what you think it is and I'll happily listen to somebody else who I enjoy more.
> 
> There's many colors in the musical rainbow for us to choose from. As far as this helping the conversation, I think it does, because I have a difference of opinion than yours, so yes, I think it creates a better balance of things.


I think if you go back and read my posts, you'll find that I have never expressed an opinion about Pettersson. All we know from my posts is that you and I hear different things in his music. No one knows from my posts on this thread whether I like his music or not. (Nor do I think that I've taken anything personally. Not on this thread, anyway! What made you think that?)

I did say that I didn't think he was "unknown." I suppose that could be called an opinion. Hmmm. That's the closest I could find....


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## Aramis

JTech82 said:


> If you like a one mood composer, then have fun, but if you enjoy a variety of emotions in your composer, then Pettersson is not your man.


Even if "mood" music isn't what you like most, I think it's good to hear something diffrent from those composers you are used to. And if for some reason you feel moody someday, moody music is the best thing you can find. I guess that people's reaction for Petterssons music depends on how they feel actually.


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## JTech82

some guy said:


> I think if you go back and read my posts, you'll find that I have never expressed an opinion about Pettersson. All we know from my posts is that you and I hear different things in his music. No one knows from my posts on this thread whether I like his music or not. (Nor do I think that I've taken anything personally. Not on this thread, anyway! What made you think that?)
> 
> I did say that I didn't think he was "unknown." I suppose that could be called an opinion. Hmmm. That's the closest I could find....


You're right, Some Guy, you didn't say whether you liked Pettersson or not, but it does seem like you're in "defensive mode," when all I said was I thought his was music wasn't my cup of tea.

You being so quick to defend his music perhaps led me to think that you liked it. If you don't like it then sorry for the misunderstanding.


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## JTech82

Aramis said:


> Even if "mood" music isn't what you like most, I think it's good to hear something diffrent from those composers you are used to. And if for some reason you feel moody someday, moody music is the best thing you can find. I guess that people's reaction for Petterssons music depends on how they feel actually.


What could be more moody than Mahler? I rest my case.


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## janne

*bump*

Okay, I'm, swedish and I have listened to Allan Pettersson a lot so I think the right to give my opinion.

Whats the essence in Allan Petterssons music ? Yes, it's feelings. First of all angst and a general heavy mood. Then anger, anger at everything around him. Understand that he was raised in a poor neighborhood with a father who drank too much. Then he got an illness that would never go away.
So his music is loaded with all these feelings and the listener will probably find this very brutal, and so did I.

He is not writing beautiful melodies. Go to Mozart if thats what you are after.

He is not very original. You can hear clear references to Mahler, Schostakovich, Profkofiev and Schoenberg and other modern composers especially when it comes to orchestration. 

His symphonies lack a general structure. They could best be described as different blocks linked together. How they are related is not clear all the time, although I would suggest they are a map of the composers different feelings at the time. There is nothing more.
This makes it very hard to follow the ideas and he clearly demands a lot from the listener.

So is he a bad composer ? No, of course not. His skill lies in giving all those violent feelings room in the music and he does it in a very convincing way.

Is he a great composer ? No. He is way too one dimensional. It's all about the feelings.

Is he something you listen to everyday ? No. This is music written for the depressed and the ones filled with anger.

Whats his best work ?
His Symphony No. 7 is the most well known. I know why. It's because in the middle of all brutal music he throws in a string section that evokes a completely different mood, a mood of almost happiness. I know, we dont want this passage to end, but it does and the violent outbursts comes back.
This string passage sounds beautiful, but it really is just a trick. It could not stand alone as it's mostly a repetition of some chords that sound well together.

My favourite Pettersson piece is entitled simply "Mesto" and its a part of a string concerto.
Why is it a favourite ? Well, it still evokes feelings of anger and sadness but it has a clear structure that his symphonies do not have.
We have a little theme that breaks the outbursts and keep coming back, everytime a little bit more stronger. So its like a rondo. Much more easier to follow when you know this structure of the piece.

My advice (if you are curious) is that you get a recording of this Mesto for strings instead of trying to enjoy his brutal most ugly symphonies.
I own a recording of it by Swedish Radio Symphony Orchestra conducted by Stig Westerberg.


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## Earthling

janne said:


> His Symphony No. 7 is the most well known. I know why. It's because in the middle of all brutal music he throws in a string section that evokes a completely different mood, a mood of almost happiness. I know, we dont want this passage to end, but it does and the violent outbursts comes back.
> This string passage sounds beautiful, but it really is just a trick. It could not stand alone as it's mostly a repetition of some chords that sound well together.


I wouldn't go so far as to say that the middle section is a "trick" any more than any other contrasting themes in a classical piece is a "trick" (actually that middle section has never sounded "happy" to me but terribly sorrowful in a way that something in a minor key couldn't do-- it expresses perhaps something akin to the Portuguese sense of _saudade_).

Definitely want to check out the _string concerto_ though.


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## janne

Earthling said:


> I wouldn't go so far as to say that the middle section is a "trick" any more than any other contrasting themes in a classical piece is a "trick" (actually that middle section has never sounded "happy" to me but terribly sorrowful in a way that something in a minor key couldn't do-- it expresses perhaps something akin to the Portuguese sense of _saudade_).
> 
> Definitely want to check out the _string concerto_ though.


Perhaps "trick" was a strong word, I regret that a bit.
To me it sounds like a temporary relief, maybe he wanted to show that in all thats ugly and depressing there is still some kind of light although the darkness comes back. Talkning about deprssion and sorrow, the drawn out ending of the symphony is very depressing ful of sorrow if you ask me. 
Anyway, the string section doesnt have anything in common with previous or following blocks in the symphony and thats why I have a hard time appreciating it.

Yes, check out his string concerto (the one with the Mesto). There we also get a powerful tune but this time with a much more clear function and role to play in the movement.


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## joen_cph

I´d like to point out the difference between various Pettersson recordings, which can influence the impression of the music a lot. 
The CPO complete edition is a very praiseworthy initiative and there are some very good performances in the set (symphony no.8 for example), but there are also some that are less succesful - the 2.Violin Concerto with Hoelscher especially (too incoherent and lacking commitment if compared to Ida Haendel and Blomstedt recording) and the 6th Symphony, which is likewise dull and never gets off the ground if compared to Kamu on an elder CBS LP (criminally never re-released, apparently). 
Also, Commissiona´s elder recording of Symphony no.9 lets the music breathe and become diversified more if compared to the ultra-fast 9th on CPO, which makes the music more stressful than necessary perhaps. Likewise, Doratis elder recording of the 7th is similarly by far the best of that symphony, whereas among the Pettersson symphonies that Segerstam recorded only no.11 seems good to me. 
As regards the 3 Concertos for Strings on CPO, they are OK, but I´d like another recording with a warmer and more grandiose orchestral "chandos"-sound to be released also.


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## Jeremy Marchant

Skip reading this thread I haven't seen the phrase that characterises Pettersson for me. I came to him, like many, via the Dorati recording of the seventh symphony and it is a compelling work, reasonably tightly organised. However, the other works of his that I know - the second symphony and _Mesto _for strings - are sprawling, almost entirely in a slow tempo and relatively interminable.

But what characterises Pettersson's music for me - all of it - is the massive, crushing, relentless *self pity*. He had a difficult life and, my God, he is determined to rub your nose in it. Make no mistake it is your fault I'm having a hard time, he seems to say.


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## janne

Jeremy Marchant said:


> Skip reading this thread I haven't seen the phrase that characterises Pettersson for me. I came to him, like many, via the Dorati recording of the seventh symphony and it is a compelling work, reasonably tightly organised. However, the other works of his that I know - the second symphony and _Mesto _for strings - are sprawling, almost entirely in a slow tempo and relatively interminable.
> 
> But what characterises Pettersson's music for me - all of it - is the massive, crushing, relentless *self pity*. He had a difficult life and, my God, he is determined to rub your nose in it. Make no mistake it is your fault I'm having a hard time, he seems to say.


The Mesto movement is the only work of Pettersson I know that has a returning theme which is also developed later on in the movement. It also creates a structure that most of his other works do not have. The end is convincing so I would not call it interminable.
His other works though are more built up by different blocks linked together without any thematic stability whatsoever to keep it all together so "interminable" fits better there.
The 7th symphony, for example, is easy to cut in 4 or 5 different blocks and they do not have much in common.


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## TresPicos

Jeremy Marchant said:


> But what characterises Pettersson's music for me - all of it - is the massive, crushing, relentless *self pity*. He had a difficult life and, my God, he is determined to rub your nose in it. Make no mistake it is your fault I'm having a hard time, he seems to say.


Yes, the way he consistently put his misery into writing was very honest and genuine.


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## joen_cph

The focus on Pettersson´s music as portraying his own physical sickness and misery is largely based on the writings of his first biographer Leif Aare and an early documentary film about the composer with sequences of him being confined to a wheel-chair. Other views of his music can also be found in the liner notes of the CPO-CDs, for example. Actually he chose poetry from socially and politically engaged writers to a larger extend than many other composers, as seen in his 12th Symphony - Pablo Neruda for instance, and folk songs. He had left-wing views and felt a strong solidarity with the working classes, contrary to many other composers. His musical language was to a large extend formed before his sickness entered. The views of Aare tend to banalize his existence into self-pity, whereas Pettersson tried to exactly transcend that. His symphonic endings are often very beautiful, thus implying an element of Utopia and hope after the struggling, also seen in his monumental 2nd Violin Concerto.


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## Falstaft

some guy said:


> Maybe that's what describes Pettersson: cells the length of Brahms in structures the length of Bruckner.


This is brilliantly put, some_guy. I don't know his output well enough (just the 7th symphony) to know if this is really accurate, but I'll take your word for it! AP seems like quite the divisive composer from this thread (and reviews I've seen on amazon.com).

Is there any one symphony besides the 7th that anyone might unilaterally recommend? It seems that recently there's no stopping me from buying once someone has said something good about a work of a 20th Century Scandinavian composer!


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## joen_cph

No.8. It is somewhat calmer and more approachable than the others, but a masterpiece.

The 9th, if possible with Commissiona.
The 12th (vocal) and the 2nd.
2nd Violin Cto with Ida Haendel.


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## Falstaft

joen_cph said:


> No.8. It is somewhat calmer and more approachable than the others, but a masterpiece.


Thanks joen, I'll definitely check that out!


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## joen_cph

Am somewhat repeating myself - but please don´t go for the BIS recording of the 8th, it is not as good as the other recordings.
As regards the 6th Symphony, it is also one of the pinnacles in the oeuvre, but, as said, the old LP with Kamu is much better than the CPO CD version. There is a digital version of it available on the web, google it. The music gradually becomes somewhat lighter.


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## janne

If you are really interested of getting to know the music of Allan Pettersson, then you must get a recording of his barefoot songs. They were written early in his career and sometimes he uses fragments of them in his symphonies.
However, I dont think they are recorded a lot.

I own a cd featuring Margot Rodin (soprano), Erik Saeden (barytone) and Arnold Ostman (piano) who recorded this in 1974.


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## Jeremy Marchant

TresPicos said:


> Yes, the way he consistently put his misery into writing was very honest and genuine.


Unfortunately it makes for unrewarding symphonies, the concept of symphonies being the integration of opposites, or at least of a variety of types of music.

I think it is also important to recognise that the music is not about anger, despair etc in general, or in other people. It is about _Pettersson_'s anger and despair and his truly tragic inability to rise above it, instead, like Sisyphus, condemned forever to repeat it. It's a sort of artistic self-harm. There's a saying amongst the first nations people in W Canada that one shouldn't tell a story more than three times. By continually repeating himself, he reinforces his negative beliefs and digs ever deeper ruts he cannot get out.


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## joen_cph

If one listens more to his oeuvre, there´s a lot of contrasts, harshness as well as beautiful passages and a richness of expression, instrumental monologues as well as collective singing. 
The 2nd V Cto, the 6th Symphony, the 7th Symphony, the 9th Symphony etc. all end with a feeling of comfort following the contrasts, and the 7th Symphony and 8th Symphony for example are a perpetual play of contrasts - aggressiveness as opposed to lyrical singing.

I find the above-mentioned characterization totally different my experience of the music, though agreeing that some of the symphonies are very expressionistic and can be downright unpleasant. Every composer tends to repeat himself from time to time, that´s how he becomes recognizable - except perhaps from the most mecchanistic symphonies of the early-classical era or some Baroque music; even Cage has made himself recognizable ...

As said, Pettersson´s selection of literary inspiration is very far from the _petit-bourgeois _choice of many Biedermeier or Belle-Epoque composers that are often considered "important" and more regularly represented at concerts, a choice of texts that symbolizes an urge to reach beyond the self and face existential and political truths. Pettersson himself said precisely that self-pity is an entirely counter-productive state of mind and not to be wished for, on the contrary. It should not be obligatory to claim a comforting "happy end" every time you compose music, but several of Pettersson´s work actually comprise such an ending also, if not exactly in Music-Hall style. Classical music has become richter and truer by Petterson´s works - as it has been through Mahler and Shostakovich, if one has an open mind towards such composers ...


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## TresPicos

Jeremy Marchant said:


> Unfortunately it makes for unrewarding symphonies, the concept of symphonies being the integration of opposites, or at least of a variety of types of music.
> 
> I think it is also important to recognise that the music is not about anger, despair etc in general, or in other people. It is about _Pettersson_'s anger and despair and his truly tragic inability to rise above it, instead, like Sisyphus, condemned forever to repeat it. It's a sort of artistic self-harm. There's a saying amongst the first nations people in W Canada that one shouldn't tell a story more than three times. By continually repeating himself, he reinforces his negative beliefs and digs ever deeper ruts he cannot get out.


Sure, why didn't the guy just cheer up? 

From the outside, it is indeed very easy to judge Allan Pettersson for getting stuck in self-pity, but just because you had the ability to overcome some small obstacle in your life, that doesn't mean that you understand the full scope of his misery and how difficult or even impossible it might have been for him to find a way out of it. There are bigger sins in life than self-pity, I think, e g condemning people for their self-pity.

And I don't understand the point you are trying to make by stressing that it is _Pettersson's _despair we're hearing. An empathic listener will, of course, feel that despair as anyone's despair, and a sad listener will be grateful that someone is expressing her despair - that Pettersson is crying _for _her.

You need happy music? Try Haydn.


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## maestro267

I've wanted to explore this composer's symphonies, but the lowest price I could find for the complete set on CPO was £68, which is way too much for me to spend in one go. So if I was to buy one of the symphonies individually, which would you recommend? I'm very adventurous, I'll take anything coming, just so you know.


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## joen_cph

I´d say the 8th, cf. remarks above, with Comissiona or Sanderling, not any other recording. 
Then the VII with Dorati, II on CPO, and the 2nd Violin Cto with Ida Haendel, not Hoelscher. Check out you-tube also and Google the 6th with Kamu, a dark work though.


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## Guest

TresPicos said:


> And I don't understand the point you are trying to make by stressing that it is _Pettersson's _despair we're hearing. An empathic listener will, of course, feel that despair as anyone's despair, and a sad listener will be grateful that someone is expressing her despair - that Pettersson is crying _for _her.


This seems as good a time as any to remind all of us that music is about sounds, not about autobiography. It seems that though TresPicos and Jeremy Marchant disagree about Pettersson's music, they have both been equally seduced by his biography.

And perhaps Pettersson was similarly seduced, I don' know. (I tend to avoid liner notes.) One thing I'm pretty sure of, though, is that Pettersson's job as a composer was not to convey any information about his various physical ailments or psychological distresses but to arrange and manipulate sounds. And when I listen to his symphonies, I hear those sounds and those patterns, not details about his suffering. All this other stuff, whether positve (that Pettersson is crying _for_ her) or negative ([his misery] makes for unrewarding symphonies), seems simply fanciful, listeners bringing ideas to the music and overlaying it with them. How about just sitting down a listening to the music itself? Forget about Pettersson. And, even more importantly, forget about yourself. Listen.

One result of this may be that Jeremy still doesn't care for Pettersson's music. One result may be that Tres still cares very much for Pettersson's music. Since in both cases, the actual notes remain the same, that really says more about Jeremy and Tres than it does about Pettersson.

Of course, to anticipate one possible objection to my thesis, everything about a person affects every other thing about a person. We are all integrated systems. Everything's connected. Our diet, our location, our biasses, our friends, our health--it's all part of the same system, and all the parts affect all the other parts. But I think it's an oversimplification to make these one-to-one relationships between biography and music. Pettersson, for one, was (like all the rest of us) much more than just the total of his particular miseries. Just as Haydn was much more than the total of his particular happinesses. I wonder if Pettersson ever had a wife who would use his manuscripts to start fires? Now that would make anyone depressed. So how does Haydn get to be the "happy" composer?

In any case, however depressed or miserable Pettersson's personal life was, surely it's not too big a stretch to conclude that the composing part was rewarding, a source of happiness. He certainly did a lot of it. It must have given him some pleasure. Besides, if you want to express your misery, surely complaining to your friends in words is much much more efficient. How do you know that a particular sequence of notes in a particular rhythm will be understood as depicting the pain in your lower back or the hurt of losing your pet budgerigar? Better to just say "my back hurts" or "my budgie just died" and let the notes you write speak for themselves.


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## clavichorder

I'm just starting to get into 10 and 11 and have recently acquired 6.


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## hpowders

I highly recommend Pettersson's 7th Symphony. Very accessible-melodic and highly moving.


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## joen_cph

I notice that above I was criticizing the violin concerto in a recording by "Hoelscher", which is of course a memory slip; I meant the recording with Van Keulen, on CPO.


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## millionrainbows

TresPicos said:


> Sure, why didn't the guy just cheer up?
> 
> From the outside, it is indeed very easy to judge Allan Pettersson for getting stuck in self-pity, but just because you had the ability to overcome some small obstacle in your life, that doesn't mean that you understand the full scope of his misery and how difficult or even impossible it might have been for him to find a way out of it. There are bigger sins in life than self-pity, I think, e g condemning people for their self-pity.
> 
> And I don't understand the point you are trying to make by stressing that it is _Pettersson's _despair we're hearing. An empathic listener will, of course, feel that despair as anyone's despair, and a sad listener will be grateful that someone is expressing her despair - that Pettersson is crying _for _her.
> 
> You need happy music? Try Haydn.


I fully accept Pettersson's self-pity and dark tone.

Perfect, healthy, properly socialized modern yuppies seem wont to apply "tough love" in the face of this. Dr. Phil wouldn't let Pettersson get away with this.

"Get it together, Pettersson, and read my new book _Life Choices: How to be a Winner in Today's World."_


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## User in F minor

Pettersson is kind of like Shostakovich with the melodies removed. It's endlessly bitter, but without Shostakovich's cynicism-and that absence gives it an air of resignation. In the context of Isaiah Berlin's "fox vs. hedgehog" thing, he's an extreme hedgehog. He expressed one thing over and over in different ways. He might be the most monochrome of all symphonists.

I've played the BIS recording of his sixth symphony a _lot_ since it was released and I'm eagerly awaiting the recently released BIS ninth to hit Naxos's streaming service. Has anyone heard it yet?


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## joen_cph

Some of the best, but rare Pettersson recordings have gradually appeared on youtube now:

- _Symphony 9_ / Comissiona: much slower than the CPO recording, making the symphony broader, more melodic and less stressful than the CPO. Notice also the prolonged effect of an elegiac, ending string song in that recording









- _Symphony 12_ for vocals and orchestra, in the Larson/Caprice recording 




- _Symphony 6_ I think in the old Kamu recording (am not able to check the assumption right now; I much prefer Kamu to the CPO, but haven´t heard the BIS) 




- _Violin Concerto "no.2"_ with Ida Haendel


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## hpowders

I have the 7th symphony paired with the 11th. The 11th comes as quite a shock with all that noisy dissonance after the lyrical, approachable, moving 7th.


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## millionrainbows

Pettersson played the viola, appropriately. The viola is a wonderful instrument, but all too often it is pushed to the side by the violin, and is relegated to playing uninteresting middle supporting voices. Pettersson was likewise pushed to the side by brighter stars. It is his sheer tenacity which amazes me; his gargantuan effort to redefine himself, regardless of the hand he was dealt. A shining example of the aspiring human spirit, triumphing over the naked, conquering monkey aggression of "winning." 

"Life is a sport," they all seem to say, but Pettersson knew better. He remains in darkness, shunning the garish light of the arena. Let's hear it for the losers!

"There's no success like failure, and failure's no success at all." -Bob Dylan


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## hpowders

It's still better than double bass.


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## Guest

The 7th Symphony is very good. It should be better known. For sure, the best introduction to Pettersson.


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## hpowders

Yes. I've been preaching that fact on TC for about 3 weeks now. A very moving and accessible symphony is the Pettersson 7th.

Nobody listens to my advice. What else is new?


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## User in F minor

joen_cph said:


> - _Symphony 6_ I think in the old Kamu recording (am not able to check the assumption right now; I much prefer Kamu to the CPO, but haven´t heard the BIS)


I haven't heard the Kamu but the BIS makes the CPO look like a near-travesty, tbh. I just got the BIS 9th today, and I'm turning off the computer now...


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## Morimur

In 2018 BIS will release a complete box set edition of Allan Pettersson’s symphony cycle as conducted by Christian Lindberg with the Norrköping Symphony Orchestra.

2018 is too damn far away!


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## Klassic

Pettersson is truly one of the greatest expressionists who ever lived. I place him next to Mahler, Shostakovitch, Sibelius, Schoenberg, Schnittke and Beethoven. I can assure you his name will rise in the future, precisely because, like Mahler, there is much substance and originality in his music.


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## Xenakiboy

What of Petterson's work should I get to know? I've heard symphony 6, 13 and 16 a while ago, though I haven't familiarized myself yet. :tiphat:


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## clavichorder

I suppose if I've gotten the hang of Shostakovich Symphony no. 4, some Pettersson symphonies are not a far cry away. Shostakovich's best orchestral work benefits from very slow development involving many instrument groups(some contemporaries saw that as a weak point and hated him for it, but it seems to be a big part of why he succeeded in serving his symphonies to a much wider audience than anyone else), even when he's at his most dissonant and coarse. 

I did try a few of Pettersson's Symphonies a while ago and found a lot of interest in them, but couldn't find it in myself to listen all the way through one. Any that you particularly think could gain recognition in the general repertoire if performed more? (Nielsen symphonies have come long ways in the international repertoire, as have certain orchestral works of Martinu, for example. So any of Pettersson's seem likely to do that?)


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## Trout

Of his symphonies, I still enjoy the 7th the most: a harrowing, unrelenting, 40-minute portent. But the 2nd violin concerto may be my favorite work of his overall. While it may meander a bit, the concerto is a powerful journey that culminates in one of the most emotional endings that I know. I can't really make sense of how Pettersson himself envisioned the work to be, though:



> A human being tries to hind his inner reality; he flees from the outer reality, controlled by the image of man, the perfect robot, where the idea of the human being is erased for the sake if ideologies manifesting themselves in homicide, fratricide, Cain and Abel again and again. In this nocturnal landscape, in which actor and observer are one and the same person, as in the unreality of a dream in which words cannot be spoken, within this human reserve, a song is heard, played by a violin with a noble tone, bearing the fingerprints of a human being; a lonely being seeking deliverance from the threatening outer collective. The cynic calls this escapism, but the little human being who does not at all believe in himself and does not understand the fine words only knows that he is endangered and there are no words for this. But the idea of the human being is not his own idea -- and therefore it is indestructible.


For some variety, also try the Schubertian _Barefoot Songs_ and his solemn _Mesto_ for String Orchestra.


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## millionrainbows

Hey! It's Summer! We're not supposed to be listening to Pettersson until Winter sets in!


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## millionrainbows

Jeremy Marchant said:


> Unfortunately it makes for unrewarding symphonies, the concept of symphonies being the integration of opposites, or at least of a variety of types of music.
> 
> I think it is also important to recognise that the music is not about anger, despair etc in general, or in other people. It is about _Pettersson_'s anger and despair and his truly tragic inability to rise above it, instead, like Sisyphus, condemned forever to repeat it. It's a sort of artistic self-harm. There's a saying amongst the first nations people in W Canada that one shouldn't tell a story more than three times. By continually repeating himself, he reinforces his negative beliefs and digs ever deeper ruts he cannot get out.


He should have read "Self Matters" by Dr. Phil, and re-wrote his inner dialogue. Then he would have been "healthy" and come out of that nasty ol' artistic darkness! Then everybody could hold hands and sing 'Kumbaya.' Ain't that right, Morimur?


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## millionrainbows

some guy said:


> This seems as good a time as any to remind all of us that music is about sounds, not about autobiography. It seems that though TresPicos and Jeremy Marchant disagree about Pettersson's music, they have both been equally seduced by his biography.


That might work for that electronic stuff you listen to, some guy, but not with Pettersson. We're all waiting for the movie to come out! Oh, God, he was so sexy!


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## millionrainbows

Pettersson is kinda like a smaller, skinnier, more sickly John Williams, only much darker than Star Wars. It's like if the aliens had won the war, and we're all in a dungeon.


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## Atrahasis

Great composer and symphonist. There is something more in his work other than pain and anger... you need to listen more carefully


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## Luukas

Speaking about Allan Pettersson I'm a beginner with his music. But thanks to the dedicated efforts of Christian Lindberg and Norrköping Symphony Orchestra I have started to understand his music. And it is good that BIS has decided to release all the discs as SACDs - although the first one which included Symphonies Nos. 1 & 2 was only a conventional CD. 
But I think we really need a new critical edition of these wonderful works. Those old handwritten study scores are horribly unclear.


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## leonsm

The next step from by Symphony no. 7 would be which other orchestral work? I really like this symphony.


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## rw181383

I suggest 8, 10 (Dorati), and then 11 (Segerstam).


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## Josquin13

With all respect & gratitude to Christian Lindberg, Leif Segerstam, and other champions of the music of Allan Pettersson, I feel strongly that conductor Sergiu Comissiona's recordings of Allan Pettersson's symphonies are nonetheless essential listening to acquire a more complete understanding of the composer's music & intentions:

The following is an excerpt from, "A Romanian Rhapsody: The life of Conductor Sergiu Comissiona", by Cecilia Burcescu:

"A most rewarding experience for Sergui is his contact with Allan Pettersson, a composer unaffected by any school influence, empathetically bent towards the disinherited by fate and circumstances-the weak, the sick, the outcasts of society. A recluse, isolated from the world, first by choice, then by crippling arthritis, he has often been perceived through his music as pessimistic, though there is hope in it that ultimately enlightens the listener. He would compose at night, inspired by the noise of the street governed by outcasts swarming in the dark. Yet, with the sun, hope will arise, too, and this will be the aspect that Sergiu would enhance when conducting Pettersson's pieces. As the composer becomes totally handicapped by illness, he perseveres in composing his 16 symphonies, although the last one that he is able to complete in his own hand is the Fifth. Sergiu manages to establish contact by correspondence with the recluse composer. Not able to speak English, Pettersson gratefully comments in French on Sergiu's contribution to the most effective rendition of the composer's musical intentions, "Vous m'avez donné ma vie." ("You've brought me back to life!") Though averse to public contact, he agrees to a visit from Sergiu, whose conducting of Pettersson's Seventh Symphony-highly acclaimed by reviewers-has fulfilled the composer's expectations.

His satisfaction is as great regarding Sergiu's rendition of Symphony No. 8, drawing the composer's praise who, according to a program-note to the concert, "now allows the performance of his works by the Stockholm Philharmonic only if Comissiona is on the podium" (Irving Lowens, "Pettersson's Symphony No. 8 Makes Bow in Baltimore", Washington Star 1978). The composer expresses his gratitude in a letter addressed to the conductor on March 1, 1976:

"Dear Maestro,

Because of my life circumstances, I am unfortunately a little late with my correspondence, like right now, when your letter has reached me before mine reaches you (your letter, for which I thank you wholeheartedly, has moved me).

Indeed, your interpretation of my Eighth was absolutely identical with the way I felt and thought when writing the piece. For an interpretation, there are, of course, several alternatives-for instance, the conductor can sit on his stool and watch somehow 'von oben' (translated 'from above') what may sound almost perfect, and yet, there might still be something missing. But you have abandoned your chair and have mingled with the musicians and have won their hearts and they played exactly the way you wanted and you could deliver 'the message' to the audience (after the concert in Stockholm, I received letters from audience members, with comments like: "Maestro Comissiona has captured our spirit '['… han toq andan ur oss!']… 'a great event, very rare…. " etc.) Yes! Indeed! The expressiveness, the sensitiveness, the artistic sincerity-everything that is needed to "reveal" a piece to the audience. One can say that my Eighth Symphony had its true baptism on December 3rd and 4th, 1975 (without my being disrespectful to the other conductors), owing to you first, of course, and the Goteborgs Symfoniker.

Now, I anticipate with great joy (one needs joy-for one's mental hygiene!) the concert with my Symphony No. 9 under your baton, at the Stockholm Opera. Who can give it a better interpretation than yours? You and only you, if at all possible, since your interpretation is already a fait accompli, a model for all!

I want to thank you, Maestro, for your willingness to follow me in the spheres of the spirit, spheres that are, nevertheless, common to all, I hope; yet a good guide is necessary for the others-the audience-and you have definitely been that good guide.

With my thanks and best regards, 
devotedly yours,

Allan Pettersson

(French manuscript translation)"

Subsequently, he [Pettersson] expresses the desire that his latest work, Concerto for Viola and Orchestra, be "by all means, conducted by Comissiona", on its world premiere with the Berlin Radio Symphony Orchestra. Sadly, it is also his last piece.

Sergiu is deeply touched by the death at 66 of the gifted composer who, though having started to compose only at 39, had had the strength to overcome crippling pain and to prove amazingly prolific during the last half of his tormented life. Though isolated from society, he had still been deeply concerned regarding the lack of popularization of Swedish composers. The concern had inspired him to suggest to the then very popular band ABBA to donate 1% of their profits for recordings of Swedish symphonic music, an initiative that was readily embraced by the band.

As a homage to the composer and as due acknowledgment of his remarkable work, Sergiu will introduce several of Pettersson's compositions, such as Symphony No. 7-consisting of just one movement and lasting 1 hour and 40 minutes-and Symphony No. 8-a gigantic fresco in two somber movements-to audiences in New York, Baltimore, Houston, Amsterdam. In 1977, he will also conduct the world premiere of Pettersson's Symphony No. 9,  Dedicated to Maestro Comissiona" by the composer, a symphony that he will also record later, with the Gothenburg Symphony for the Philips label."

Haydn House offers both CD & mp3 versions of Comissiona's LP recordings of Pettersson's Symphonies No. 8 (with the Baltimore S.O.), No. 9 (with the Gothenburg S.O.), and No. 14 (with the Stockholm Philharmonic)-variously coupled with Antal Dorati's recording of Symphony No. 10, Okko Kamu's recording of Symphony No. 6, and Yuri Ahronovitch's Symphony No. 16. They also offer Dorati's recording of Symphony No. 7 as well (though inexplicably Dorati omits the brass in a middle section of the symphony, which isn't in accordance with Pettersson's score):

http://www.haydnhouse.com/hh20.htm

Sergui Comissiona & the Swedish R.S.O.'s moving performance 7th can be heard on You Tube:

Here's a clip of the full symphony:






And, an excerpt from the concert film which contains the last 30 minutes of the 7th, and IMO, has better sound than the full clip above:






Symphony No. 9, performed by Comissiona and the Gothenburg Symphony Orchestra:






Symphony No. 8, performed by Comissiona and the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra:






Symphony No. 14, performed by Comissiona and the Stockholm Philharmonic Orchestra:






Here is Comissiona's 1979 world premiere recording of Pettersson's Viola Concerto, with violist Yuri Bashmet and the Berlin Radio Symphony Orchestra (I would also recommend hearing violist Nobuko Imai's recording on BIS):






Finally, here is the world premiere recording of Pettersson's Violin Concerto No. 2, with violinist Ida Haendel and the Swedish Radio Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Herbert Blomstedt (I would also recommend hearing violinist Isabelle van Keulen's recording on BIS):


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## leonsm

rw181383 said:


> I suggest 8, 10 (Dorati), and then 11 (Segerstam).


I jumped to his 6 (Trojahn/CPO) and not regret, it's an amazing work, as good as the 7. I'll listen to the 8 (Albrecht/Orfeo).


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## paulbest

So here is the Pettersson page, which I will look over tomorrow. I will try to add some interest and keep this page alive.
For me, Pettersson is the Voice of THIS Zeitgeist. Moreso than say Schnittke, much moreso.

I guess you could go over to my many commenst scattered on amazon cd reviews, which really amount to nothing more than some thoughts on Pettersson's importance and has little to do with musical structure commentary or performance analysis. 

Ck out the CPO releases , you will see my comments there.

I am most assuredly a …
Petterssonian,,,for life, til death. 

As his music speaks to my spirit in the most profoundest levels. 
Paul
The Petterssonian
new Orleans


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## Larkenfield

Christian Lindberg briefly discussing Allan Pettersson (after an intro to other works):










qq


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## paulbest

Great find, must have JUST been posted, myself and another friend , who is like myself and may join the chat forum soon, have missed the 1st VID/interview with Lindberg. 
UNREAL, ,,,Just unreal. 
I have so much to comment on that 4 minute YT vid,,it could very well be my mammoth post, will set a record. You think my others went on too long winded,,,Just wait til I find time.,,,may have to make it a 2 or 3 part series of posts, based just on that 4 minute clip...

If you add up all my comments on amazon, YT past 10 yrs, plus the many posts here,,,I might have someone gather all the threads together and make a book form. 
I can not write any history book, book on Plato, Nietzsche, Jung, , as everything that needs be said, has been written. The only subject I could makea good book of, is Allan Pettersson. But it would have to be a collaboration, as I am not at all scholarly, nor erudite. What I lack in rhetorical polish N punch, , I make up for with flare, fancy, color. Ideas you can hang a hat on.


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## Larkenfield

paulbest said:


> Great find, must have JUST been posted, myself and another friend , who is like myself and may join the chat forum soon, have missed the 1st VID/interview with Lindberg.
> UNREAL, ,,,Just unreal.
> I have so much to comment on that 4 minute YT vid,,it could very well be my mammoth post, will set a record. You think my others went on too long winded,,,Just wait til I find time.,,,may have to make it a 2 or 3 part series of posts, based just on that 4 minute clip...
> 
> If you add up all my comments on amazon, YT past 10 yrs, plus the many posts here,,,I might have someone gather all the threads together and make a book form.
> I can not write any history book, book on Plato, Nietzsche, Jung, , as everything that needs be said, has been written. The only subject I could makea good book of, is Allan Pettersson. But it would have to be a collaboration, as I am not at all scholarly, nor erudite. What I lack in rhetorical polish N punch, , I make up for with flare, fancy, color. Ideas you can hang a hat on.


Glad you enjoyed it, Paul. When I have time, I may post my reactions to this performance of the 7th. Pettersson is quite an outstanding orchestrator and I believe that he's tuned into a sometimes terrified reality the most people never experience.


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## paulbest

Larkenfield said:


> Glad you enjoyed it, Paul. When I have time, I may post my reactions to this performance of the 7th. Pettersson is quite an outstanding orchestrator and I believe that he's tuned into a sometimes terrified reality the most people never experience.


Pettersson's bio reads like a martyr for a cause. 
I can not say too much , as others have described in words far better than I, events surrounding his life.

I have stated my feelings often on amazon/YT , things I could not say here on TC.

I have , perhaps 5 recordings of the 7th. 
The 7th receives so so much attention. I guess for good reasons, but honestly I can not place his 7th as a work separate from the 6th, and 8th. 
In fact as I have shared often all over Amazon./YT the Pettersson syms, are somehow organically connected , so his cycle is one symphonic poem, each sym as a movement in the grand scale of things.
Others have felt this is a possible way of hearing the symphonies. So when I hear *I like AP's 7th*,,I think, but what about the 6th, 8th. 
Its like the Mahler crowd, with topics to discuss such as *which single movement in any Mahler sym is your fav,,,* Or which Mahler sym is your fav/*. 
With AP, all symphonies 4-15 , all carry equal sense of importance within the grand opus. One is not any more significant that any other, Sure I am completely aware it is the *SEVENTH* which is the most famous, most well known, most easily accessible. For this reason if asked, I say, no the 7th is not my fav, I have no favs. 
They do not understand, as every has a fav in Mozart, Beethoven , Mahler , Shostakovich etc. 
I love all equally,,, well honestly some have more affects on me that others, but not by much. each bears a deep affect on me.

Anyway, more to discuss later.

Here is the link to 2 other 7ths, , I have both, I am waiting on you and others to comment on the 7th/Lindberg and others. As I say I have no musical EDU and so can not dissect recordings as you guys can. 
I can only hear any recordings that might be a anomaly , either on the hitting the mark, or missing the ideal tempos/textures of the work.

In Pettersson , I've yet to come across any record that has failed to present the power and scope of the work. 
The above vid explains how the Norrpoking has done its homework and made a dedication, commitment to Pettersson's symphonies.

it is clear from the BIS cycle, the cycle is a great success.
Which is not usually the case in grand cycle recordings. Read the Mahler topics,,every Mahlerian has this conductor in this sym , another in that sym. No one is ever satisfied in just 1 box set.

More on that subject later,,,,,

http://search.store.yahoo.net/yhst-...done=http://www.operapassion.com/cd88391.html


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## paulbest

Here is a YT performance of the 7th, recorded in Berwald Hall, Sweden, Dec 1, 2017, with the young great british conductor who has tremendous promise, which are already shown fulfillment in this Pettersson 7th. Well on his way to become as great as those of the past, Water, Bohn, Furtwangler , , Keilberth, Boulez, Segerstam, and Mravinsky, I also wish to mention Neeme Jarvi and Christian Lindberg. 
without further adieu , here is Daniel Harding leading the great great Swedish RADIO Sym Orch (not sure why it is, but nearly every time radio orchestras are superior to main stream orchestras). 
In a Dec 1, 2017 performance.

Upon hearing, you will understand my comment about Radio orchestras superior to mainline orchestras.

Now w/o further adieu,

Lets get on with the concert




for some reason, upload takes you to late in the concert, please excuse and rewind to start. Enjoy


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## Larkenfield

Hard to imagine a better performance of the Seventh than by Daniel Harding and the Swedish Radio Symphony Orchestra. Outstanding! More real than real. There’s a tender serenity in this work, but I also find the beginning full of ghosts and apparitions that Pettersson sounds terrified of, being victimized by, and then at times there are the shrieks from the high strings. I’m not exactly sure if he’s saying “Watch out!” to his listeners, or his music is cathartic and exorcising the demons. But it’s a fascinating combination of forces and elements playing against and off each other. Rather hypnotizing because he believes every note that he writes without seeming to have any critical distance toward whatever he’s experiencing. A brave man. I plan on hearing the other symphonies and deciding whether for me this is the greatest cycle of symphonies since Mahler or Shostakovich. I’m gonna go to No. 1 next and take the rest in order to hear what happens. I hear a number of different influences in his music but there’s also something that’s brave and original too. I like that he uses the full range of the orchestra like Mahler and Shostakovich and he’s such an outstanding orchestrator.


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## NLAdriaan

Larkenfield said:


> Hard to imagine a better performance of the Seventh than by Daniel Harding and the Swedish Radio Symphony Orchestra. Outstanding! More real than real. There's a tender serenity in this work, but I also find the beginning full of ghosts and apparitions that Pettersson sounds terrified of, being victimized by, and then at times there are the shrieks from the high strings. I'm not exactly sure if he's saying "Watch out!" to his listeners, or his music is cathartic and exorcising the demons. But it's a fascinating combination of forces and elements playing against and off each other. Rather hypnotizing because he believes every note that he writes without seeming to have any critical distance toward whatever he's experiencing. A brave man. I plan on hearing the other symphonies and deciding whether for me this is the greatest cycle of symphonies since Mahler or Shostakovich. I'm gonna go to No. 1 next and take the rest in order to hear what happens. I hear a number of different influences in his music but there's also something that's brave and original too. I like that he uses the full range of the orchestra like Mahler and Shostakovich and he's such an outstanding orchestrator.


Last week I purchased this secondhand Pettersson collection, am now slowly getting into it


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## paulbest

Larkenfield said:


> Hard to imagine a better performance of the Seventh than by Daniel Harding and the Swedish Radio Symphony Orchestra. Outstanding! More real than real. There's a tender serenity in this work, but I also find the beginning full of ghosts and apparitions that Pettersson sounds terrified of, being victimized by, and then at times there are the shrieks from the high strings. I'm not exactly sure if he's saying "Watch out!" to his listeners, or his music is cathartic and exorcising the demons. But it's a fascinating combination of forces and elements playing against and off each other. Rather hypnotizing because he believes every note that he writes without seeming to have any critical distance toward whatever he's experiencing. A brave man. I plan on hearing the other symphonies and deciding whether for me this is the greatest cycle of symphonies since Mahler or Shostakovich. I'm gonna go to No. 1 next and take the rest in order to hear what happens. I hear a number of different influences in his music but there's also something that's brave and original too. I like that he uses the full range of the orchestra like Mahler and Shostakovich and he's such an outstanding orchestrator.


Then your reaction to Harding/Swedish RADIO forces are exactly like mine, tight, yet the canvas has bold colors and textures, not stiff, nor mechanical 
I wonder how many orchestra members had known the score part, previous played the 7th in their life, so Maestro Harding already had something to work with.

Looking forward , very much so, to your experiential insights into the entire cycle. My feelings is that the 4th is the prologue, the prelude of the symphonic cycle so to speak, And in the 5th things really get going. 
Perhaps you may find the 3rd or even the 2nd as qualifying as the prelude sym.
It was way back in 2001, or 2002, a CMGer on the *what R U listening to* mentioned the AP 2nd sym he used one word in his comment that struck chord , and my eras perked, He said the 2nd was *harrowing*….hummm, I thought,,,I like things that are harrowing, , Ordered several, the 7th of course,,and It was a revelation. Almost immediately all my Sibelius collection began to collect dust. Things changed inside me. End of one phase, with new beginnings.

Every day that goes by, there are others who are experiencing Pettersson's music, New fans are being brought in daily, now. 
Its only a matter of time.


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## Granate

On May 3rd BIS releases the new Pettersson installment of the ongoing cycle, with the 2nd Violin Concerto and a 7 minute performing edition of the 17th symphony.

Concerning the symphony canon, 12th is the only Symphony BIS hasn't recorded for their catalogue. While the Lindberg BIS cycle should go to symphonies 3, 8, 10, 11, 12 & 15. I don't know if I should try this composer soon or wait until they complete the cycle. For example, I haven't studied the second Vienesse school or some romantic symphonists like Brahms or Mendelssohn yet.


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## paulbest

NLAdriaan said:


> Last week I purchased this secondhand Pettersson collection, am now slowly getting into it
> View attachment 117408


 Great set there, Now CPO offers the complete syms as a set, at a bargain price. All the CPO releases are exceptional performances.
One amazon reviewer mention, he had just got out the hospital from heart surgery , and it was the music of Pettersson which calmed his worries and trepidation about the future.
He feels CPO may have given dif conductors/orchestra a sym in the set, to bring out a better, more interesting cycle, I think he is correct,. How often we have complete sets, yet some syms are performed more successful, others less so, and we are stuck buying other singles to make it all work out in the end. 
many complain about their Mahler, and Bruckner box sets. , great in this sym, a dud in that sym.

I am glad CPO made that good call. 
Or perhaps CPO felt it would takea Herculean task for just one conductor/orch to record the entire cycle, and resources would be stretched very thin.

Think about the demands of the symphonies all together.

The only conductors I know who would gladly welcome sucha challenge, would be those greats from the past.

Furtwangler, Stokowski, Bohm, Walter, 
Especially Stokowski, he would gladly , very happily; take on the Herculean task.

Lindberg/Norrepoking 's new recordings, now near complete, except the 12th, which is being released soon.

BIS may soon, very well release these as a box set, Look for that. 
All are exceptional, Perhaps prefer moments from other recordings in some.


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## paulbest

Granate said:


> On May 3rd BIS releases the new Pettersson installment of the ongoing cycle, with the 2nd Violin Concerto and a 7 minute performing edition of the 17th symphony.
> 
> Concerning the symphony canon, 12th is the only Symphony BIS hasn't recorded for their catalogue. While the Lindberg BIS cycle should go to symphonies 3, 8, 10, 11, 12 & 15. I don't know if I should try this composer soon or wait until they complete the cycle. For example, I haven't studied the second Vienesse school or some romantic symphonists like Brahms or Mendelssohn yet.


I just made my post, before seeing yours. Yes the 12th may be the last , but I was wrong, as you point out the May 3, new release.
I have both recordings of the VC2, both are excellent, and recommend both. More on that later, So we havea new recording of the 2nd VC with Ulf Wallin, WOW, yes, this is indeed most welcoming news.

I had hoped Hahn would give us a record of the 2nd, but we have Wallin's record, I am completely forgetting all hopes for a Hahn record.

I'll let others chime in on your well thought out decision of perhaps holding off on getting into Pettersson. 
I see you like to approach things with prep work and taken in order. I am different when it comes to classical. I seek whatever is outstanding and hold my interests, with intensity while charming my senses.
back in the LP days, all we had was the big romantic/classicalists composers. 2nd Viennese was strange, odd, , next to my favs of Rachmaninov , Sibelius, Mozart, Ravel, Debussy. 
Something have changed on that list after my intro to 2nd Viennese.

I think you are wise in holding off into Pettersson. Not even the 7th. 
Take your time to explore all avenues available now with YT.
Do not be like me, and miss Szymanowski. 
Put his opera King Roger on your must hear lists today, I have 3-5 recordings of that magnificent masterpiece. 
Brahms , nor Mendelssohn ever did much for me, but then I never was a big romanticist fan.


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## millionrainbows

NLAdriaan said:


> Last week I purchased this secondhand Pettersson collection, am now slowly getting into it
> View attachment 117408


I did the same thing; here is my smaller selection:


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## Granate

paulbest said:


> I think you are wise in holding off into Pettersson. Not even the 7th.
> Take your time to explore all avenues available now with YT.
> Do not be like me, and miss Szymanowski.
> Put his opera King Roger on your must hear lists today, I have 3-5 recordings of that magnificent masterpiece.
> Brahms , nor Mendelssohn ever did much for me, but then I never was a big romanticist fan.


Thank you. I've had two very different years exploring Classical Music composers. While I dedicated 2017 and 2018 to explore the operatic world of Verdi, Wagner, Russian and French Opera, I've been into symphonic for the past months, including three years reviewing Mahler and Bruckner recordings, then Beethoven, and recently finished Dvorak, Sibelius and Schubert.

When I explored almost all Antoni Wit's discography, I discovered his accounts of Penderecki and Szymanowski (I'll stick only with Goreki's No.3). But that was during 2016's Summer. I don't remember anything about their music.

I've listed a good number of Nordic symphonists to listen to, next to Nielsen, very soon. Also, I want to visit Shostakovich already. But I hope I have enough free time.

How different is _King Roger_ to Enescu's _Oedipe_?






Is this the video you mean? That could make it the next commercial release, but I doubt it is the end of the cycle. They will surely keep recording the rest of the symphonies Segerstam already performed to get the whole cycle on rich SACD quality.


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## paulbest

Granate said:


> Thank you. I've had two very different years exploring Classical Music composers. While I dedicated 2017 and 2018 to explore the operatic world of Verdi, Wagner, Russian and French Opera, I've been into symphonic for the past months, including three years reviewing Mahler and Bruckner recordings, then Beethoven, and recently finished Dvorak, Sibelius and Schubert.
> 
> When I explored almost all Antoni Wit's discography, I discovered his accounts of Penderecki and Szymanowski (I'll stick only with Goreki's No.3). But that was during 2016's Summer. I don't remember anything about their music.
> 
> I've listed a good number of Nordic symphonists to listen to, next to Nielsen, very soon. Also, I want to visit Shostakovich already. But I hope I have enough free time.
> 
> How different is _King Roger_ to Enescu's _Oedipe_?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is this the video you mean? That could make it the next commercial release, but I doubt it is the end of the cycle. They will surely keep recording the rest of the symphonies Segerstam already performed to get the whole cycle on rich SACD quality.


 Yes this is the great Pettersson Project, Lindberg and his group has taken it upon themselves to attempt to bring Pettersson to most of the classical world, all over the world. The group has major success at every concert. There are countless reports of concert goers being moved to tears , sobs, tremendous moving of the souls to all the audiences.

There is no other music which moves audiences like Pettersson's music. that can be substantiated throughout the years, Its nota new phenomenon restricted to the current audiences.

I wish I had millions in the bank, so I could donate to the project. I hope in the future I have the finances to support this lifelong project of Lindberg. 
Will make me very happy to support his efforts.

I will look at the vid now.


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## Guest

I first began to take an interest in Pettersson about 13 years ago. 

I had read somewhere, on a another music forum, that his Symphony No 7 was a good starting point, so that was my first acquisition and I liked it a lot. After that I quickly acquired most other symphonies and various other work including some concertos and chamber music. 

A fair bit of his output is quite dark and brooding, but not excessively so. It is all mainly tonal, which I prefer, but still has a modern "feel" about it. 

One work which I particularly like is the Viola Concerto. My version is by Nobuko Imai (viola), Malmö Symphony Orchestra. Another is the Violin concerto No 2, my version being by Ida Haendel (violin), Swedish Radio Symphony Orchestra. 

All of the various Pettersson recordings I have are by European orchestras. I'm not aware of any USA orchestras attempting this work. There isn't a lot of choice available for any of the main works, but they all seem very worthy in my view, with excellent sound quality. I have quite a few by Leif Segerstam/Norrkoping Symphony Orchestra, and they're all very good.

Petterrson doesn't seem to have become popular enough as yet for the classical music radio stations in the UK to feature his work. I think that this is an oversight and ought to change.


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## joen_cph

Pettersson was somewhat popularized in Scandinavia when excerpts from some of the symphonies were being used in a Norwegian television series based on a novel by Sigrid Undset, "Jenny" (1983, in 3 parts). I still remember that series.

[video]https://tv.nrk.no/serie/fjernsynsteatret/1983/FTEA31002581/avspiller[/video]

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0163455/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenny_(novel)


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## flamencosketches

What is a good, cost effective, CD of Pettersson's 7th symphony? I've been hearing so much good things about this composer lately that I want to give it a shot. (Especially while I'm still in the mood for big symphonies; my tastes tend to cycle in and out of certain styles.)


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## paulbest

flamencosketches said:


> What is a good, cost effective, CD of Pettersson's 7th symphony? I've been hearing so much good things about this composer lately that I want to give it a shot. (Especially while I'm still in the mood for big symphonies; my tastes tend to cycle in and out of certain styles.)


Wait til your cd budget allows you to acquire the CPO set,,,,,I thought you mentioned there are other composers you wish to work through before heading over to Pettersson's music...The CPO set will be around for a while, not going OOP, JUst visit YT for the symphonies, to make sure you will be happy with the purchase. I'd wait some months, before purchase. I do this all the time with a new composer, 1st familiarize myself, then make a decision.


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## flamencosketches

paulbest said:


> Wait til your cd budget allows you to acquire the CPO set,,,,,I thought you mentioned there are other composers you wish to work through before heading over to Pettersson's music...The CPO set will be around for a while, not going OOP, JUst visit YT for the symphonies, to make sure you will be happy with the purchase. I'd wait some months, before purchase. I do this all the time with a new composer, 1st familiarize myself, then make a decision.


That is a good call I think. I do have a list of composers to get further into for now. Sometimes I get overly excited over new music. The CPO series probably is the way to go when it is time for that.


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## Guest

flamencosketches said:


> That is a good call I think. I do have a list of composers to get further into for now. Sometimes I get overly excited over new music. The CPO series probably is the way to go when it is time for that.


Rather than wait until you get round to buying CDs, if you haven't already done so, you might think about getting a Spotify account, or similar. I reckon it's worth paying the monthly charge for the 320 kbps bit rate service. There is a large selection of Pettersson's works available on there.


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## joen_cph

The 7th with Dorati is a classic. I'd also invest in an 8th. Personally I'd avoid Segerstam in those and sample CPOs before buying, since Pettersson recordings can be very different from each other - actually, they tend to be.


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## flamencosketches

Partita said:


> Rather than wait until you get round to buying CDs, if you haven't already done so, you might think about getting a Spotify account, or similar. I reckon it's worth paying the monthly charge for the 320 kbps bit rate service. There is a large selection of Pettersson's works available on there.


I have Apple Music (don't like Spotify) but even that I don't use all that often. I am neurotic about music listening and prefer to do it via CD, vinyl, or directly off my phone in my car (not streaming). Something about being reliant on the internet to hear my music upsets me :lol:


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## paulbest

flamencosketches said:


> I have Apple Music (don't like Spotify) but even that I don't use all that often. I am neurotic about music listening and prefer to do it via CD, vinyl, or directly off my phone in my car (not streaming). Something about being reliant on the internet to hear my music upsets me :lol:


That's how I am, Neurotic in my stance, stubbornness , in not going MP3, streaming, etc, I am old school,, when we 1st got out AM transistor radio, either black or white model,,,PLUS EAR PHONES!, we could ride our bikes listening to rock,,,,then came stereos. I must have the actual cd. This is why I have a big tube stereo system. 
Cds are the only way to go, as it helps record company;'s makea small profit, w/o that, we might not actual cds of our favorite composers.

I would never go apple, spotify, even if it was free. 
Its OK for pop, country, jazz. But in classical, no, Has to be cd, and only cd. 
Look, at what price can you place our favorite composers music?
Correct, all of Rothchild's 500T of gold is of lesser value to 1 Pettersson sym.


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## paulbest

joen_cph said:


> The 7th with Dorati is a classic. I'd also invest in an 8th. Personally I'd avoid Segerstam in those and sample CPOs before buying, since Pettersson recordings can be very different from each other - actually, they tend to be.


Interesting,

What is it about Segerstam's recordings, that you feel CPO has superior perforamnces?
Any particular sym? 
Or all of his records?

As I mentioned elsewhere, Pettersson is not like Beethoven, Mozart, Brahms. There is room for some slight variations, as it is thickly layered, highly complex music. 
Each conductor, will offer a slightly dif angle, dif texture.

Note what Hahn says about performing any VC, there are slight variations she can approach each work. Which is why she takes so much time in practice to find her way of tackling each concerto. Oistrakh's Shostakovich VC1 recordings, each is slightly different.


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## joen_cph

paulbest said:


> Interesting,
> 
> What is it about Segerstam's recordings, that you feel CPO has superior perforamnces?
> Any particular sym?
> Or all of his records?
> 
> As I mentioned elsewhere, Pettersson is not like Beethoven, Mozart, Brahms. There is room for some slight variations, as it is thickly layered, highly complex music.
> Each conductor, will offer a slightly dif angle, dif texture.
> 
> Note what Hahn says about performing any VC, there are slight variations she can approach each work. Which is why she takes so much time in practice to find her way of tackling each concerto. Oistrakh's Shostakovich VC1 recordings, each is slightly different.


I like some Segerstam recordings, but his 7th and 8th doesn't capture the flow and intensity in the music IMO, compared to others. But I like his 10th and 11th, that are coupled with those symphonies. It's been a while since I heard them though.

I'm not a fan of just the CPO set, I might prefer Lindberg, but have only heard some of the latter's recordings. For the 6th, I prefer Kamu, for the 7th, Dorati is certainly good, for the 8th and 9th, Comissiona. The CPO of the 8th (Thomas Sanderling) is very good too. The 9th with Comissiona is a unique, much slower performance than the fast alternatives, and Kamu catches a more lyrical or 'singing' mood in the 6th. But Kamu's and Comissiona's might still just be available as LPs.

As a Dane, I've naturally heard a good deal of Segerstam, because he was a leading conductor of our radio symphony orchestra here for quite a few years. IMO, he's not always that good at capturing a sense of architecture or forward moving tension in works.









A quick photo of my Pettersson CDs.
The two CDs where some of the content is unreadable due to light also contain the 12th Symphony with Larsson and the 13th with Francis on CPO.

To this should be added LPs:









- Symphony 2/Westerberg
- Symphony 6/Kamu
- Symphony 7/same Dorati (not on the photo)
- Symphony 8/Comissiona
- Symphony 9/Comissiona
- Symphony 10/Dorati (+Blomdahl)
- Symphony 12/same Larsson

- 2nd Violin Cto/same Haendel (not on the photo)

- 1st String Concerto/same Westerberg (+Moses Pergament)
- Cantata, Vox Humana/Westerberg

I still don't own the reconstructed 1st Symphony. The 11th with Segerstam I have as a download. The fragment of the 17th I have as a tape recording.


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## paulbest

A real Petterssonian, 
Glad to meet you. 
You know come to think of it, from faint memory, as it has been a while since I last heard Segerstam, the intensity was there, no doubt, but some flow, lyricis may have been lacking...I might agree, I'll post some reviews when I unpack my cd collection, after having just moved.

Kamu wasa great conductor, witness his Sibelius records.
Both Segerstam's records in Sibelius, are OK, the 1st set, with the Danish RSO is superior to his later Helsinki. 

I have a 3 Comissiona on CD format, oth excellent.
Let me ask you, is Pettersson now being played over Scandanavian classical radio at the moment? 
Is there a growing number of fans, in the 3 scandanavian countries for Pettersson's music?


I would like to know some of your opinions on the new Lindberg set. 
There area few places where the CPO shines more effective, but overall its a good set.
Lindberg and his group are making big changes around the world. w/o this Pettersson Project, Pettersson would continue to be relegated to a dark corner.
Think about it, the greatest symphonist, shoved into a dark forgotten place for decades after his passing. 
Humanity always has been sluggish in making new discoveries in great art. 

I hope and desire one day to send funds their way, and do my part. Hopefully others will join in. 
Ck out any of my posts here, and on amazon, let me know what you think of my views on Pettersson.


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## millionrainbows

Paul, how do you respond to the dismissal of Pettersson's symphonies as being "amorphous and sprawling"? If they really are, is this possibly their strength?


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## paulbest

millionrainbows said:


> Paul, how do you respond to the dismissal of Pettersson's symphonies as being "amorphous and sprawling"? If they really are, is this possibly their strength?


I think you are referring to a post,,wish I could locate it,,,I know where it is, over at the *why are great modern composers shunted , disregarded, neglected, booed at, pooped upon, laughed, criticized, spat upon so much, so often?* that topic,,well really its only 2 or 3 major modern composers that receive all these accolades ,,, one of these 2 or 3 is the music of Allan Pettersson.

I think that was 2 of the words, but he had other things to say as well.
Which is fine, I just get chuckles out of anti Pettersson rhetoric.

Like I say, Pettersson to me represents to me the single most important voice for this Zeitgeist. Now if others havea dif world view, that's fine N dandy, Obviously they are not going to hear Pettersson's music as I do.

Pettersson's music is what I was looking for all my life since birth. 
He most perfectly reflects all that I was, am and forever will be. 
I hate to go into such semantics,,,others might read me as *antics*. What~EVER!

Sorry to go off w/o giving a clear answer,,,maybe ,,well let me look up the word *amorphous* 1st,,,be back....yep his music could be described with this 2 adjectives ,,and many others.
But as you know, the use of amorphous was used as a destructive criticism, as though his music was *vaporous* = w/o any real meaning, just a blob of goo.
This is how I read his post.
Another member mentioned that Pettersson was *really a insignificant minor composer*

I guess he just felt the need to combat my incessant opinion, that Pettersson is the greatest symphonist,,and so he founda place to slip that slur in.

Whatever

I know who Pettersson is, and a few others every day are now making this discovery.

Pettersson is saying a lot in his music, He is amorphous and sprawling. Pettersson is reflecting THIS Zeitgeist which is a epoch completely out of control. 
Whereas Beethoven and even Brahms is par excellent the voice of the Illuminati, Pettersson is the Voice of the Nietzsche's Over Soul, Jung;s Collective Unconscious, Primordial man, our Adamic nature, our angelic spirit within us all. Pettersson is the great prophet cast in a musical form. 
Genius , only match by a very few gifted composers throughout history.

Hope I helped answer your inquiry.

Paul
The Petterssonian


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## millionrainbows

Wow, it's touching, and surprising, to see someone expressing their love of a composer's music in this way: very human, very personally, without any distracting historical overview, and without using an impersonal "arena" of historical comparison. Rave on, brother. We can all learn something from you, or be reminded of what this forum _could be._


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## joen_cph

paulbest said:


> A real Petterssonian,
> Glad to meet you.
> You know come to think of it, from faint memory, as it has been a while since I last heard Segerstam, the intensity was there, no doubt, but some flow, lyricis may have been lacking...I might agree, I'll post some reviews when I unpack my cd collection, after having just moved.
> 
> Kamu wasa great conductor, witness his Sibelius records.
> Both Segerstam's records in Sibelius, are OK, the 1st set, with the Danish RSO is superior to his later Helsinki.
> 
> I have a 3 Comissiona on CD format, oth excellent.
> Let me ask you, is Pettersson now being played over Scandanavian classical radio at the moment?
> Is there a growing number of fans, in the 3 scandanavian countries for Pettersson's music?
> 
> I would like to know some of your opinions on the new Lindberg set.
> There area few places where the CPO shines more effective, but overall its a good set.
> Lindberg and his group are making big changes around the world. w/o this Pettersson Project, Pettersson would continue to be relegated to a dark corner.
> Think about it, the greatest symphonist, shoved into a dark forgotten place for decades after his passing.
> Humanity always has been sluggish in making new discoveries in great art.
> 
> I hope and desire one day to send funds their way, and do my part. Hopefully others will join in.
> Ck out any of my posts here, and on amazon, let me know what you think of my views on Pettersson.


I never listen to music radio these days, but I doubt there's much Petterson being played on the Danish radio, or performed here. Statistics seem to confirm this, sadly https://www.dr.dk/musik/kunstner/allan pettersson/9684

My impression is that the state classical radio has reduced their level of ambition, but as said I haven't been following it for many years. A Pettersson- or Pettersson-and-other-stuff-festival event in Scandinavia might do the trick, but just a bit.

I like Lindberg using a somwhat bigger orchestra in the String Concertos, the CPO recording is comparatively chamber-like. Still, it's not as big as Westerberg in the sole concerto he recorded.

I still prefer Kamu in the 6th to Lindberg, but I haven't heard much else Lindberg. I had hoped that his 9th would be slow like Comissiona's, but judging from reviews/playing time, it isn't. I'm pretty sure though Lindberg has good qualities and things to say, compared to the CPO ones ... IMO, Pettersson would often gain by tempi not being too rushed for too much of the time.


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## paulbest

millionrainbows said:


> Wow, it's touching, and surprising, to see someone expressing their love of a composer's music in this way: very human, very personally, without any distracting historical overview, and without using an impersonal "arena" of historical comparison. Rave on, brother. We can all learn something from you, or be reminded of what this forum _could be._


Hi well you asked for a simple answer and geta very long winded answer, I know you mentioned that you saw my comments on amazon.
So you already know how I feel about Pettersson's music. 
Every year, these comments will expand, broaden, deepen widen. Its called the transformation process as per carl Jung, 
To stagnate is death.

I mean at this moment, i'd have to re-read what I wrote above,,,often I have no recollection of exactly what I said.

I might make footnotes to the above,,,Let me get on to the Joen's comments, he seems to have good understanding of the music/tempos/textures,,,more so that I. 
Pettersson is the only composer I have almost no ultra criticism on dif recordings, Which is unusual for me, as that is my 30+ year hobby.


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## joen_cph

> I might make footnotes to the above,,,Let me get on to the Joen's comments, he seems to have good understanding of the music/tempos/textures,,,more so that I.


Not very likely  I'm just a music collector like many people here, not a musician (and I don't claim to know all the symphonies by heart).


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## paulbest

joen_cph said:


> I never listen to music radio these days, but I doubt there's much Petterson being played on the Danish radio, or performed here. Statistics seem to confirm this, sadly https://www.dr.dk/musik/kunstner/allan pettersson/9684
> 
> My impression is that the state classical radio has reduced their level of ambition, but as said I haven't been following it for many years. A Pettersson- or Pettersson-and-other-stuff-festival event in Scandinavia might do the trick, but just a bit.
> 
> I like Lindberg using a somwhat bigger orchestra in the String Concertos, the CPO recording is comparatively chamber-like. Still, it's not as big as Westerberg in the sole concerto he recorded.
> 
> I still prefer Kamu in the 6th to Lindberg, but I haven't heard much else Lindberg. I had hoped that his 9th would be slow like Comissiona's, but judging from reviews/playing time, it isn't. I'm pretty sure though Lindberg has good qualities and things to say, compared to the CPO ones ... IMO, Pettersson would often gain by tempi not being too rushed for too much of the time.


You offer great info here, You have good perception as for best tempos in Pettersson, *not too rushed*...Remember there are over 200+ recordings of Beethoven syms, most have issues, MOST!!!!
The really only keepers are Bruno Walter and a few others. I am only bringing Beethoven up as a compare, due too the quite simple straight forward nature of all Beethoven's works,. Evena youth orchestra has some degree of success in Beethoven. Jean Sibelius also is quite simple and esay on both conductor and orchestra, Its straight forward,,Yet it does have its issues, Only Berglund has mastered all the syms successfully, Segerstam took it twice and even he has issues getting Sibelius right = there are problems with Sibelius scores

,,now back to Pettersson, EVEN MORESO with Pettersson are there incredible difficulities. For this reason even the finest conductors won't go near Pettersson. 
1) where will they find time to give proper study to the scores?
2) where will they find a orch which can handle the great difficulities in all the syms ?

3) who will fund the project?

4) etc, etc, ETC, = ain;'t gonna happen.

Lindberg's cycle will stand alone for a very long period of time.
]
The only conductor living today who could make a success of the cycle, would be Salonen,,, perhaps the young british conductor Harding., who has great success in the 7th.

Can Salonen take time off to devote to Pettersson? 
No, as he already has commitments stacked up next 3,4,5 years ahead.

I am about to unpack my boxes of cds, as I just moved,,I will compare the CPO and BIS next week as time allows


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## paulbest

messiaenfanatic said:


> I have recently finished listening to Petterson's Symphony No. 8 and I am listening to Symphony No. 10 right now. I do not understand why this composer is so under recorded? Is it because his works are dark and moody sounding? His works definitely have a tonal center to them. I find Symhony No. 8 of Pettersson's to definitely be one of my favorite symphonies; that is No. 8 in the middle half of the 20th Century. I need to listen to every symphony of his. Does anyone else enjoy listening to Pettersson's works? If so which ones?


The reason why Pettersson is not often recorded,,,considering Beethoven has over 
~~~200+ recordings to date,,,more on the way~~~~~

The reason why very few conductors are willing to approach Pettersson

1) they may feel, the music is not connecting,,,or they are not connecting with the music. = out of sync, , =poor performance
2) The conductor would love to conduct Pettersson but he is not sure where he will find a orch willing to commit to the demands of the practice , committed to carrying the project all the way through = some members may not feel they have the virtuoso talents to make a success = if only a few members are not up to the task , the whole project suffers = dud performance
3) resources = The Money, =which donors will fund the project? = What is it going to cost,,,with orchestras on the brink of bankruptcy,,its best to play if safe and easy and play whats only popular
I could extent the list on and on.
But at least you get the main reasons why Pettersson can not be recorded,,unless there is a sponsor with cash. 
The 8th is a major section within the sym 2-15 cycle.

As I hear the syms, seems the 2-15 can be considered one complete sym, taken as a whole. It is like 1 symphony with ,,,14 movements involved.
I am sure Lindberg may disagree with this idea,,but then again other experts may chime in and agree in part with my assessment. 
Now with which other composers can we imagine composing a 14 movement Symphony?
Taking a entire lifetime?
For this reason, I believe Pettersson is the greatest symphonist ever,,,or at least equal to Schnittke.


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## science

Is there an easily accessible recording of the complete 24 barefoot songs?


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## Portamento

I'm the biggest Schnittke fan you'll ever meet, but have yet to explore Pettersson in-depth. Paulbest's "at least equal to Schnittke" assertion peaks my interest; will have to report back in a week or so.


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## science

Portamento said:


> I'm the biggest Schnittke fan you'll ever meet, but have yet to explore Pettersson in-depth. Paulbest's "at least equal to Schnittke" assertion peaks my interest; will have to report back in a week or so.


Oh, I'm so happy to read this! Please check out his 7th symphony!


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## joen_cph

science said:


> Is there an easily accessible recording of the complete 24 barefoot songs?


Here are some:
https://www.amazon.com/Barefoot-Songs-Saeden-Ostman-Pettersson/dp/B01AXMLWTM
http://allanpettersson100.blogspot.com/2011/01/recordings-barefoot-songs.html


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## science

joen_cph said:


> Here are some:
> https://www.amazon.com/Barefoot-Songs-Saeden-Ostman-Pettersson/dp/B01AXMLWTM
> http://allanpettersson100.blogspot.com/2011/01/recordings-barefoot-songs.html


Thanks, man!

I knew about the CPO recording of the complete songs, and I guess that's the one for me!


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## paulbest

Portamento said:


> I'm the biggest Schnittke fan you'll ever meet, but have yet to explore Pettersson in-depth. Paulbest's "at least equal to Schnittke" assertion peaks my interest; will have to report back in a week or so.


Trust me, the world is a big place. You might imagine casting yourself as the world's biggest Schanittkeian , but we will never know all the far reaches inside germany's hinterlands, nor russsia's vast northern plains...I'm sure there are others at least equal to your exuberance and enthusiasm for all things Schnittke.

Glad to meet another Schnitteian. There are so few of us in this world. But of Pettersson, Henze, Schnittke, I'd say Schnittke has the greatest notoriety among these 3. Schnittke is well on his way in *coming out the shadows and into the stage lights*.

Henze ;'s genius has a very long way to make it to Star-dom , his star has yet to get over the horizon here in the USA.
Pettersson's star is now coming up over the horizon, just the tip of the sun can be seen, with many storm clouds giving way to that sun tip. with Lindberg's Pettersson Project now under way.

Schnittke's star is now at about 8 oclock up, maybe even 9 oclock.


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## millionrainbows

Questions one might ask oneself:

Is Pettersson's work an "inner dialogue" of his life? That seems to be what he said. Is the darkness in his work a "facing up to reality", in opposition to optimistic works like Beethoven's Ninth?
Is there any "hope" and optimism in Pettersson's music? Examples?

What did Pettersson witness, in terms of historical events, that make him such a pessimist? Is he a pessimist? Was he shaped more by personal events, or historical ones?


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## Guest

I posted this earlier this evening on another thread but this is where I shoud have posted it; I have edited it very slightly...
I'm new to *Allan Pettersson* and I thought I'd give it a go (the *6th Symphony*), given PaulBest's enthusiasm. 
I have to say "kudos" to PaulBest for using the forum to promote one of his favoured composers; this is one good aspect of the TC forum, where one can get a "heads-up" on stuff one would never have thought of.
That said, I gave the Pettersson an entire listen and I regret to say I came away disappointed and completely underwhelmed.
Curiously enough, when I heard the opening sequence I immediately thought of *Gorecki's 3rd Symphony*, though the comparison ends there.
I'm afraid to say that I found the Pettersson to be hackneyed and somewhat amateur.


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## paulbest

TalkingHead said:


> I posted this earlier this evening on another thread but this is where I shoud have posted it; I have edited it very slightly...
> I'm new to *Allan Pettersson* and I thought I'd give it a go (the *6th Symphony*), given PaulBest's enthusiasm.
> I have to say "kudos" to PaulBest for using the forum to promote one of his favoured composers; this is one good aspect of the TC forum, where one can get a "heads-up" on stuff one would never have thought of.
> That said, I gave the Pettersson an entire listen and I regret to say I came away disappointed and completely underwhelmed.
> Curiously enough, when I heard the opening sequence I immediately thought of *Gorecki's 3rd Symphony*, though the comparison ends there.
> I'm afraid to say that I found the Pettersson to be hackneyed and somewhat amateur.


Which is good. This proves my strong unequivocal belief, that each persons philosophy will have a very strong pull, that is will control and direct ones inner era to composers which are in agreement with ones Self and also likewise the personal philosophy will deter any music which repels , which is not concordant with one's philosophy./
For me, Pettersson speaks what I believe, in a musical form. 
Whereas Beethoven speaks against my inner Self. So much so against.

Well here comes the brigade to lash out at me for that last quip,,,or am I under the protective line here on Pettersson's page,,a place where they are allowed, but must be nice when in the room


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## paulbest

millionrainbows said:


> Questions one might ask oneself:
> 
> Is Pettersson's work an "inner dialogue" of his life? That seems to be what he said. Is the darkness in his work a "facing up to reality", in opposition to optimistic works like Beethoven's Ninth?
> Is there any "hope" and optimism in Pettersson's music? Examples?
> 
> What did Pettersson witness, in terms of historical events, that make him such a pessimist? Is he a pessimist? Was he shaped more by personal events, or historical ones?


Obviously you have a superior grasp of Pettersson's music, than I ever will, and so can see deeper, the full significance of his music. Your posts will irritate the anti Pettersson gang we have on TC...


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## Granate

Yesterday FC Barcelona lost their Champions match 4 nil and my roommate was really sad, so he kept talking on the phone for a couple of hours, even if I tried to sleep. 

So far, I tried to listen to whole Pettersson symphonies on my phone from YouTube. I tried first 7, 8 and then 9. I don't understand his language yet, but I was quite pleased listening to 7 and 8 until I nod off in my bed after 20 minutes.

Yesterday night, I tried to sleep and I put myself Lindberg's performance of Symphony No.6 for the first time. If I was mildly pleased with 7 and 8, I was startled and intrigued with the sound of 6 until I fell asleep, but to the point that I wanted to listen to it again... What happened?


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## paulbest

Well this *what happened?* is what we would like to known from you.
The 6,7,8 , someone suggests is like a *trio of symphonies, a core unit*. 
Perhaps, 
I can not say, like with Beethoven syms, *rate ina list your fav Beethoven sysm…*, wityh Pettersson there is no list. 
All are part/sections of a organic whole.
They are all intertwined as One Opus
And yet I am speakingas a Petterssonian,. So yes, the 6th is more accessible vs several others. 
Connect with the 6th, others may/may not follow


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## millionrainbows

paulbest said:


> Obviously you have a superior grasp of Pettersson's music, than I ever will, and so can see deeper, the full significance of his music. Your posts will irritate the anti Pettersson gang we have on TC...


No, you undervalue yourself, PB. There is no "superior grasp" of experience, and it is foolish to compare experience in this way. Experience is "Man's invisibility to Man" in the words of R.D. Laing. And he speaks of the soul.


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## Guest

paulbest said:


> Obviously you have a superior grasp of Pettersson's music, than I ever will, and so can see deeper, the full significance of his music. *Your posts will irritate the anti Pettersson gang we have on TC...*


I hope you don't include me in this so-called gang! 
Based on your enthusiasm I gave Pettersson's 6th Symphony an entire listen and came away unimpressed, that's all. 
I might well have a listen to his other symphonies, when I get a moment. This does not make me anti-Pettersson.
And whilst I'm cool-to-tepid about what I've heard _so far_ vis à vis Pettersson, MillionRainbow's comments and/or insights will not irritate me in the slightest because I don't know enough to have formed an opinion that risks being either validated or undermined.


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## joen_cph

I found the CPO of the 6th very disappointing compared to Kamu, others may think differently.


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## paulbest

joen_cph said:


> I found the CPO of the 6th very disappointing compared to Kamu, others may think differently.


Kamu is a great conductor, I heard his Sibelius, one the best recordings.

This Kamu, must be a LP copy.
Which hopefully will make it to cd release.

I would like to know where in the 6th does the CPO recording *lack*,,How about Lindberg's 6th?

I know music well, when its off, I can hear it.
Although I have no musical training,,i can take 2,3,4 Mahler syms recordings, having never heard the sym/how it suppose to go..and can rate the 4 in order in terms of quality.

Its a knack I have developed as a record critic past 35 years.

I hear the CPO as a great recordings. Yet as you say, I have no other, except the Lindberg to compare.

In the next few weeks, I'll try to give both a listen.
Which orchestra is with Kamu? Year/label?


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## paulbest

https://www.discogs.com/Allan-Pette...-Symphonie-Nr-6-Symphony-No-6/release/3189689


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## paulbest

Yt offers both the CPO and BIS, 
Both excellent/strong.
With Pettersson, there is one definitive version. His music allows for each conductor to take his own style. Obviously within limits.
His music is the only composer I know that allows a conductor to take his own interpretation as he so pleases.
No other composer is such. 
Thankfully we do not have the anti Pettersson gang/bashers around to get all irate and vociferous over my stated opinion. 
How would I answer to that statement?


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## joen_cph

I liked Lindberg in the 6th better than the CPO, I'll give it a spin one of these days, but Kamu will probably remain a favourite. Will also check if there is a CD transfer somewhere of Kamu.

As regards the CPO, my impression was that it didn't really get off the ground, the cantabile or 'singing' element was downplayed, and the music seemed more static. Some might hear a quality in those features. Having Kamu, I replaced the CPO with Lindberg. But it's been a while since I heard Lindberg.


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## paulbest

joen_cph said:


> I liked Lindberg in the 6th better than the CPO, I'll give it a spin one of these days, but Kamu will probably remain a favourite. Will also check if there is a CD transfer somewhere of Kamu.
> 
> As regards the CPO, my impression was that it didn't really get off the ground, the cantabile or 'singing' element was downplayed, and the music seemed more static. Some might hear a quality in those features. Having Kamu, I replaced the CPO with Lindberg. But it's been a while since I heard Lindberg.


Your critique , to your relief, has a ~~Confirmation~~~.
OK now where do we go from here,,,CBS owns the copy rights to the Kamu 1976 recording. 
I serious doubt, in fact has Sony ever released any new classical cds lately? Reissues?

That record file is collecting dust somewhere and has very little chance of seeing the light od day on cd format.

And try to contact Sony? Good luck, you may find no one in the company who has any clue who to ask, , and so could care less if that record EVER sees CD format. 
Whats that to them.. they think, *how many copies will we sell?* *1000,at beast?*, will not even pay the electric bill to transfer to cd.
Sop I have to recant my above opinion it does matter who is conduciting. 
I only had the Trojan/Berlin, and so , like our Gieseking/LP days, we thought Gieseking was *just perfect* in Debussy/Ravel. Now we know better.

So Lindberg will have to be The Alternate Performance, until we geta bootlegcopy. If you could, please rip us some copies on CD and we could all send you some cash for the CD.

If you would be so kind.

http://www.classical.net/music/comp.lst/works/pettersson/sym06.php


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## joen_cph

I think I saw a CD transfer for sale once of Kamu. Will dig into it, but I'm busy with work right now.

There are 2 YT versions claiming to be the CPO, but they have very varying timings. Kamu on LP is about 53:30. 
I'll dig into it later.


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## paulbest

joen_cph said:


> I think I saw a CD transfer for sale once of Kamu. Will dig into it, but I'm busy with work right now.
> 
> There are 2 YT versions claiming to be the CPO, but they have very varying timings. Kamu on LP is about 53:30.
> I'll dig into it later.


Please do, On second thoughts, I do recall, some of the CPO seemed a bit *ragged* , rough shop, either due to

1) not enough time spent in practice
2) some of the orch not able to connect with Pettersson, as his music is quite dif from all the typical old standards
3) the score is beyond the conductors abilities
4) the orch/conductor may not have heard other versions, as the CPO in most syms, were the 1st to record on CD format.= no one knows exatly how the sym is suppose to come off

Future recordings will have the benefit, if not the blessings of having access to multiple recordings, and see where there is room for alterations.

Recall Hillary Hahn's comments on her approach to any VC.
She spends great time and effort in practice as to which of the countless variables involved, , thus attempting to tweak the finest interpretation. 
She is a master on many levels, for to her due-diligence.
The one thing I've noticed which holds her back from even further success, is the quality of conductor and orch,. When one is the best violinist, this can pose a problem for her.

Same in Pettersson, Can a conductor finda group which has the talents needed to make a Pettersson a stunning success as has Kamu's Norrepokin/1976 orchestra?

Remember the 1970's were the Golden Age for orchestras, From there orchestras mostly went down hill in quality....and has been that way ever since and will remain sio, 
'The best orchestras were in the late 1950's, - late 1980's. 
Yes I am aware the Bayreuth early 1950's were definitive, but that was a anomaly 
I can't recall one truly great orch from the 1990's through today. 
I know I will get some flack for that opinion. 
I am not saying orchestras are lousey from the 1990's- today, what I am saying they are mostly if not all, grade B quality, while the earlier orchestras, many were Grade A, some were Grade A+++
Now you are lucky to find a Grade B+ orch. 
While many are grade C. 
Classical music is not forever.


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## philoctetes

OK I'm sampling... on Spotify... did not stay with #10 by Francis, but Lindberg's #5 is holding my interest for now... barely...

still going with #5... figure 17 was totally Sibelian... I can see how this could grow on someone, if they have the patience... it's very broody... at some point Sibelius might break out a melody, but this is more like interludes linked together with occasional crescendos... so Sibelius' #4 is most like this. How bad is that?

With Francis my ear sensed sloppiness from the beginning, one of my frequent gripes with some orchestras on CPO.

Figure 129 is almost Prokofiev-like... but Schnittke does not come to mind yet. There is that cold northern feeling associated with Scandinavian and Russian music all through the piece..

It's over now, and was definitely worth hearing. I'm not gonna rush into the "suicide symphony" without a pause though...


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## paulbest

Pettersson is not like a Brahms sym you know.

I'd say Pettersson is just as much dif as Schnittke, perhaps more so. 
No rest for the weary in Pettersson, everyone has to on their toes throughout, At least Schnittke offers lull places. 
But not Pettersson..
This supreme challenge must be kept in mind. 
As I say this ain't no Tchaikovsky or Beethoven sym you know. 
Sibelius? 
I think I've heard comments like Bruknerish/Mahlerish (in structure only, not sound world), But never Sibelius. 
I just do not hear any resemblances,,,although Pettersson does take 1 tiny passage from the Sibelius VC, , lasts for no more than a few seconds and absolutely takes it to a celestial level. 
Comes and is gone in a flash, Schnittke is famous for these types of transcriptions, blink and its gone.

As I say some of the CPO had rough edges,,but lets be thankly the CPO set even exists. 
AS before all we had were a few Segerstam, some LP's and rare OOP cds. 

If Beethoven can must up 200+ recordings,,,it is a possibility we may see at least 1 or 2 more Pettersson in the coming decades. 
I'd like to see either Salonen with the Swedish radio or the young british conductor Daniel Harding. with the Swedish radio. 
Funding? Not just after a Lindberg BIS release. 
Lets be content we have the BIS and CPO releases. 

The sloppy ness you hear might be some bias(make sure you read SOME as = a pinch) on your part,which you dragged in to the listening room.


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## paulbest

Read Russ and Hakan 's comments below

As for slight echos of Sibelius in the 11th, agree, Is this a bad thing?

https://www.amazon.com/Pettersson-S.../cpo&qid=1557503491&s=gateway&sr=8-1-fkmrnull


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## paulbest

I just now see you madea edit, yes has elements of that northern scandinavian dark twilight atmosphere.

I am now listening to Francis and the UNREAL Hanover SO in the 11th. 
Moveing, flows, no soloist out of place, everyone is one cue and in touch with Francis. 

I'd rate the Fransic/Hanover 11th, as 10 out of 10, and trust me, I am no where as liberal with stars as David Hurwitz. 
With my critique, a orch has earn every single star. Why would I cheat just because I am fond of Pettersson?


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## paulbest

Here is the amazon listing, syms 7+11/Segerstam/Norrepoking/orig release 1993!!!!!!!!!!!!!/BIS, 9 reviews, all gave 5 stars, read for yourself.

If anyone has time, please give us any updates between the Segerstam , Francis, Lindberg 11th's. 
I just don't think any issues with the 3. I am guessing all 3 will be 10 star status. 
I actually had to edit my comments on Segerstam's 7th, one year after my initial post.

Can not exactly recall what it was,,,maybe after some 13 years its time for a reconsideration,,but I'd bet I am going to stay with the Albrecht/Hamberg State Phil Orch/CPO vs the Segerstam/Norrepoking/BIS. 
in the 7th.

+ I have received another 3 or 4 7th's since 2007 amazon comment.

Mark Shanks offers, as his usual, inviting, enlightening reviews. Trusted source.

https://www.amazon.com/Pettersson-S...002X1OWGC/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8


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## philoctetes

OK I'll just refrain from any more comments on Pettersson, and nobody will have to read them.


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## paulbest

Just see this 2013 YT upload, ,
starting at 6:24. *The 7th, the only sym folks wish to hear*,,7th7th7th7th7th7th7th7th7th7th7th7th7th7th, ,,,SEVENTH!!!!!!
If I had the authority, I'd place X # of year moratorium on the Pettersson Seventh. = banned, illegal to perform or further recordings. 
I really really would.

Why?
You figure it out.


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## rw181383

You can get a copy of the Pettersson 6 conducted by Kamu here (along with a few others): http://www.haydnhouse.com/HH20.htm


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## joen_cph

rw181383 said:


> You can get a copy of the Pettersson 6 conducted by Kamu here (along with a few others): http://www.haydnhouse.com/HH20.htm


And note that the unique 9th with Comissiona is there with it too.


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## Larkenfield

O Okay, I've heard his 1st, 6th, 7th, 10th and 11th symphonies. Does his music represent the zeitgeist of our times as it's been proposed? I do not mean to sound unfair or unkind to Mr. Pettersson, but I sincerely hope not, because if it is, we're all in trouble. Why? Because there's not an ounce of mercy or redemptive grace in the symphonies I've heard so far. None. Zero. Not for him, not for you, not for me. My overriding impression up to now is that his music portrays Man totally at the mercy of fate, including a number of malevolent forces that he sounds terrified of. Listen to the first 12 minutes of his 7th Symphony. He's huddled in a corner somewhere. He sounds petrified without any mitigating or higher forces to help him. It's like watching someone in a state of purgatory and he's describing what's going on there but trapped with no way out.

What's interesting about it is that he seems to be describing what's going on in that dimension, so I feel compassion for him, but I do not share his stark reality that his music portrays. His symphonies are full of never-ending stress, tension, and crisis with no relief. The elements in his music that are so brilliantly done, it's polyphony, which can be very compelling and intriguing, is in constant motion with maybe a brief moment of respite, but then it's back to crisis as normal, and the symphonies may simply be the crisis of his own physical pain, anguish, and hardship in sound that he's experienced throughout his life. It's hard to say. But whatever he's saying, I do not feel that it's universal not enough, constructive enough, hopeful enough, inspiring enough, to attract a wide audience and to place him in the league with the other greats, though I would consider him one of the most talented composers of the 20th -century in ability but not necessarily his variety of content.

He stays in one basic mood for an entire symphony and cannot seem to get out of it, causing his emotional range to be very narrow rather than wide despite some of its surface interest and appeal. I even skipped ahead to his 15th Symphony to see if he was feeling any better, to perhaps have found the silver lining in his misery somewhere, and it was more of the same stress and crisis. In the event that his music is the zeitgeist of the times, I view it primarily as a warning to mankind with regard to the road it's going down of bleak and potential self-destruction. But there's very little light that I see in it, nothing whatsoever that's inspirational or what I would call spiritual… not religious, but spiritual in the sense that there's an animating light that exists within creation that can lead one out of the purgatory of pain, anguish, nihilism and negativity, including of the psychological and emotional kind. I feel compassion for what he went through but I question what he may have gotten out of it that could represent something in the way of healing or redemption. May he rest in peace.

PS. I find no mystery in why his 7th Symphony is the most popular and the one that people most often request or turn to: It's the only one with a few moments of calm and perhaps even a peaceful serenity and some relief from his grinding pain. The others that I've heard have virtually none of that but are rather a tension-filled agony from almost the beginning to the end. What a shame that he didn't know more peace and freedom from pain in his life because he could have included more of that, and most people's lives are not a relentless agony from the moment they get up in the morning until they go to bed at night. But with him, he had the agony of his health problems and that's why I think his symphonies are likely to have have been highly influenced by that. But why shouldn't that be the case when that's practically all that he knew. It was his reality and he painted it in sound. On the universal level his music could signify the agony of the world that were all born into. I do not regret the time I spent on him.


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## joen_cph

Somewhat serene, comforting or beautiful endings are the 9th with Comissiona, the 2nd Violin Cto with Haendel, and, some would say, those of the 8th, the 7th, plus the 6th with Kamu.

I agree that a lot of our musical taste is partially influenced by psychological content, interpretation, and preferences. I don't hear him staying in one mood forever, however, there are conflicts, developments and times of respite or examples of an oasis of calmness.

As said before, he hated the idea that his music was self-biographical and self-pitying; traits of the style were already there before his illness, and his choice of texts deals with social and societal issues.


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## millionrainbows

I am beginning to think that comparisons are limiting and selective, eliminating certain music or ranking it, and in this sense act to reinforce personal paradigms. I am an "omnivore" as a listener, so I approach a wide range of music in an objective manner, and also possess a humility regarding even my own tastes. I've always been this way. To a large degree, I am interested in exploring and covering unfamiliar ground, not in "building an identity" in music.

Pettersson has said that his own "egocentricity" as an artist can be interpreted as the lonely, sick, and bullied reaction against the unimaginativeness of the healthy person. If he is aware of this quality in his own work, it is no wonder that it does not have wider appeal.

It also brings into question the relevance of opinions of his music. For example, if we look up Pettersson in Wikepedia, the music is explained somewhat, and facts of his life are given, but nowhere do we find opinions of what "ranking" he holds, or if his music is "good or bad." It is simply accepted that he is an artist who has achieved recognition as an artist.

In this light, even a thoughtful, insightful assessment of Pettersson's music can be seen as a strategy to build up one's own views, if that assessment represents a refusal to engage to a degree of acceptance, and also espouses "consensus views" of what constitutes a "healthy view of Man," while at the same time attempting to "warn" or dampen the enthusiasm of those who might approach his music, or already hold him in acceptance.

A certain egocentric disdain comes through in such criticisms.

While there may be a certain out-of context 'objectivity' to such critical statements, they ultimately are in service of a non-acceptance of Pettersson's aesthetics, and ultimately serve the critic's own worldview.

If the net result is a refusal and failure to engage with the work, allowable, but irrelevant in the big picture, there is an inherent contradiction, because Pettersson openly admits to having a negative outlook; indeed, this is his subject matter: Man's inhumanity to Man. This is what must be accepted as a "given" if one is to engage with the art.

So any "protest" against Pettersson's negativity is at odds with the intent of the art, and is therefore a statement that serves only to reinforce a negative opinion, and nothing more as regards the art.

Even any accompanying understanding of the work is therefore flawed, since it represents a failure to engage; how does this failure color the experience, and what does the non-acceptance "leave out," in terms of truly engaging with the work? Can such a disdain and refusal to engage contribute to a real understanding: No, it is a refusal to accept; it is a rejection.

Such reactions must therefore be seen as egocentric; failures to engage which are "political" in that they are designed to persuade others to avoid engaging; or act as "smear campaigns" in portraying the music as "not worth" the engagement because of certain factors.


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## paulbest

WOW, Off my chart, Out my league, I will have to print out your Essay , due my due diligence of deep pondering, I mean I would need references from Plato, Jung and Nietzsche to follow up on your exposition. But why? As you kept things within the a range where most here can follow your conclusions. 
Yet I need some days or weeks to gather in all the jewels offer and follow up on the gold vein which you obviously has led us to the mother load.

I just don't think how you said things here will be surpassed as far as conciseness, precision, context, and quality of content..
Not sure if Petterssson has ever been expressed even close to your broad and telescopic insights. 


I hope In coming days/weeks I can add a few notes, to allow others to see what I observe in your expressions of Pettersson's sound world. 

Obviously you are responding to the COUNTLESS comments all over YT, classical chat sites, from the MANY who enjoy and get a kick of splashing a touch of spittle and disdain for Pettersson's music. 
I know exactly it is these *outsiders* who you have in mind.
This rush to judgement from the countless Pettersson critics , their slurs has fbeen like firewood which formed in the kiln , these ideas you present here. 

I have no plans to post anything futher on TC< until I can gather up what you just expressed, and hopefully can forma descent follow up.
Until that time, 
You guys takes care.

I will look at the links to the Kamu 6th. Not too tech savvy, no MP3 apps, I only use CD's.


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## paulbest

rw181383 said:


> You can get a copy of the Pettersson 6 conducted by Kamu here (along with a few others): http://www.haydnhouse.com/HH20.htm


 Will order today.

Also

http://search.store.yahoo.net/yhst-...://www.operapassion.com/new-mp3-jan-2019.html


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## paulbest

From the Mp3 1 minute clips, I know the 6th CPO well, I am will prefer the CPO over the Kamu. I just know it, Also the Comissiona, 9th, I will also prefer the CPO. 

Others here know me as the *clip review master*. 
I am a completist in all things Pettersson, but with the BIS/CPO I am not looking for further recordings.


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## millionrainbows

@Best, I view encounter with art as a positive experience, not a negating one. Art is in many ways like a religion; it is not science, can't be "proven," so its only value is in the experience we get from that engagement with the artist and his work.

If the experience is one of rejection, it cannot be relevant in terms of experience. Experience in art only has meaning if it is engaged. To engage is to have good faith in the artist and his work. Just like religion.

Art can't be "objectified" and exempted from subjective experience of engagement and still retain its meaning.


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## paulbest

millionrainbows said:


> @Best, I view encounter with art as a positive experience, not a negating one. Art is in many ways like a religion; it is not science, can't be "proven," so its only value is in the experience we get from that engagement with the artist and his work.
> 
> If the experience is one of rejection, it cannot be relevant in terms of experience. Experience in art only has meaning if it is engaged. To engage is to have good faith in the artist and his work. Just like religion.
> 
> Art can't be "objectified" and exempted from subjective experience of engagement and still retain its meaning.


I note how often you write as arguing a case against some *collective opinionated group* mind set/collective unconscious AKA *The invisible censorship*, which I've also run across quite frenquently, here/there, yonder /the ubiquitous collective VETO, of any idea which they can not fit into THEIR AGENDA's standards.

Of course art has to do with philosophy/religion,. Note how often a sense of importance Plato, Nietzsche, Jung give attention to art as the voice of the creative unconscious,, I did not say *collective* unconscious , as art can never be for the ,,,well yes it can, Art can be for a group collective conscious,,,the group which is say drawn to Mahler, Bruckner, Brahms, all will share a similar identify of values. They think, act alike in some GENERAL pattern.,

Now , as I, and no doubt as per your previous posts, tend to seek the , individual way, Lao Tzu's The Way, unique, individual, alone, outside votes don't really matter much as to your love for a certain composer/style/genre.

Now its true , you may be drawn towards a generally accepted major composer, but has nothing to do with popularity.
Then later on you may feel you;'ve outgrown that composer, time to move on,,,,or move back towards. 
You enjoy your freedom, inspite of , how the group wishes you would act.
ie, a strong aversion towards Pettersson,,,what does this negativity, shallow at times, which reflects more on their lack of discernment than any real understanding of what they ACTUALLY heard in Pettersson….., what does this shallow , biased opinion towards Pettersson, have to do with you?

Beethoven has been around some 200 yrs, Pettersson barely 20 yrs since his music appeared in CD format, and pre 20 yrs, , rare/OOP LP's.

So for anyone who considers themselves a *authentic classic-phile* and dismisses Pettersson, on a whim,, no longer irks, jolts, nor upsets my apple cart.. 
This stands to reason. 
Pettersson is for the few, never will be for *the many*, It is this , way, and has to be more than just understood as a necessitated phenomenon, but accepted, nay, embraced.

Muisc can be a religious event, a voice of ones philosophy. 
Depends on what the composer actually composed in terms of meaningful content.

I hope folks don;'t think, that music just comes forth from a brainless nitwit,,or worse, that a composer had nothing better to do than to scribble some ink on paper and wahh-LA, , a masterpiece.

The musical forms are inborn, before they arrive on this planet. Some carry this archetypal structures, others that type. 
Some alter their ideas, shapes, forms, fabrics of a work, 
Some composers draw froma few sources of creativity within/without, Others draw wider, deeper, broader, more,,epochial, more archetypal , greater Zeitgeist , than another contemporary. Some like Sibelius, Wagner, allow folk forms, Bartok, ravel as well. , to help allow these creative surges to find new forms in a contemporary , musical setting = classical instrumentations.

Pettersson's music captures some essence, microscopic/telescopic visionary , where time is kaput, broken down, extinguished. Beyond time, but never ever beyond this epoch, this archetypal situation mankind finds himself trapped and suffocating, with no hope , neither even a tiny SCINTILLA of a pin hole of light.
Beyond, hope, beyond despair, beyond himself, , and can not do what Joni Mitchell has sung so beautiful for us on solo piano, 1969, *We need to get back to the garden*. But how? has anyone actually been , seen that place?

Our great ancestor Adam, has not left us a road map.

can I now bring this back to Pettersson's and his music now?

I had hoped to stay away for some days/weeks, until I had something of descent value to add to your explosive testimony,,,,,something at least as interesting what you brought to the table.

It was your previous shorter post which allowed the flood gates to burst and there you have it.

If I don't click post NOW,,I may go back and edit, scratch , and who knows, delete the entire long winded, way off the beaten path from the sunbect at hand, Pettersson;'s unique timeless, overwhelming creative genius...If I know Allan Pettersson from what I've read,,he no doubt would quickly order his servants to end my visit, even before I got half way with this ,,,these far fetched , wild ideas. 
I know Pettersson, he has *no time for such twaddle and inventive fantasia, cocky-pop*.

He was great man, not allowing for any such chat which would deter him from his creative mission. He was cast into a terrible grueling fate , fighting just to live, yet carrying his creative impulses to reach , not base camp, 1,2,3,, but all the way to Mt Everest, not once, but in his syms, 3,-15,,some include his 2nd sym,,which I will have to consider,,

How was all this energetic creativity possible under such tragic conditions?

No one knows, it will forever remain a mystery, and so we can only honor what he gave us , by sharing what we know to be a salvific music.

Only after we pass on, will we make the realization of just what Pettersson;'s music had upon our lives, its true value can only be partly known here. The greater realization yet awaits.


----------



## millionrainbows

> I note how often you write as arguing a case against some *collective opinionated group* mind set/collective unconscious AKA *The invisible censorship*, which I've also run across quite frenquently, here/there, yonder /the ubiquitous collective VETO, of any idea which they can not fit into THEIR AGENDA's standards.
> 
> You enjoy your freedom, inspite of , how the group wishes you would act.
> ie, a strong aversion towards Pettersson,,,what does this negativity, shallow at times, which reflects more on their lack of discernment than any real understanding of what they ACTUALLY heard in Pettersson….., what does this shallow , biased opinion towards Pettersson, have to do with you?


"They" are the spirit-killers. :lol:


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## paulbest

millionrainbows said:


> "They" are the spirit-killers. :lol:




Plato versus the~~~~Sophists~~~~ 
Plato vs the falsely so called philosophers, the rhetoricians , the Mr know-it-all's, The academicians, the stubbornists, the out-of-touch ones

They are out there, they walk among US..

https://people.uwplatt.edu/~ciesield/platovsoph.htm


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## millionrainbows

paulbest said:


> Plato versus the~~~~Sophists~~~~
> Plato vs the falsely so called philosophers, the rhetoricians , the Mr know-it-all's, The academicians, the stubbornists, the out-of-touch ones
> 
> They are out there.
> 
> https://people.uwplatt.edu/~ciesield/platovsoph.htm


B.F. Skinner...


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## paulbest

For new commers to Pettersson sound world.
Syms 2,3,4 can be considered on very long prologue.
The cycle I feel begins with his 5th, here Pettersson has finally found his voice, his ideas are now coming together.
5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15.
One is not greater than another. Don't listen to what you read , *oh I prefer sym x,,,or y,,,or z,,,,*. 
If a certain sym does not click with you, move on, come back later, 
Do not begin with the 7th. 
Begin with the 5th, move on to the 6th, , skip the 7th, move to 8-15 in that order. 


Now after the 15th, now go back to the 7th, as this sym will now be heard as the center piece to this cycle. 
You are more prepared. Afterwards listen to the syms , in any order as you wish.


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## joen_cph

joen_cph said:


> I think I saw a CD transfer for sale once of Kamu. Will dig into it, but I'm busy with work right now.
> 
> There are 2 YT versions claiming to be the CPO, but they have very varying timings. Kamu on LP is about 53:30.
> I'll dig into it later.


Well, it turns out that the shorter you-T ~Trojahn version of the _6th Symphony_ just skipped the last minutes. That's what's said in the comment section there.

So no Kamu recording of the _6th Symphony _on you-t at all ... but as said before here, there's a CD transfer of the LP combined with the unique _9th Symphony_ conducted by Comissiona from the Haydn House label.

I listened to Lindberg and Kamu again in the _6th Symphony_, and I have a clear preference for Kamu, where the performance is much more contrastful, with a bigger string tone and much more 'singing' from strings and winds. I get the feeling that with Lindberg, the work is too flattened out.

Examples from the Lindberg recording as regards less contrasts or expressivity are

25:00, 28:20, 29:25 and onwards (new phase not suffieciently pointed to), 43:00 and 45:35 ditto.
Only at 56:40 I began hearing a bit of Kamu's intensity, but that is very late in the work ...

................................................

BTW, I really really liked Lindberg in the _1st Concerto for Strings_. Together with _Symphonies 7 and 8_, preferably not in Segerstam recordings, it would be my primary recommendations for initial Pettersson listening.

I also think of the _2nd Violin Concerto_ with Haendel, the _6th Symphony_ with Kamu and the _9th Symphony_ with Comissiona as essential. As regards the others works, I'm still considering and exploring further.

I've also heard the _5th Symphony _in the CPO recording once again, but find it one of the less engaging works in the oeuvre. The _16th Symphony,_ for Saxophone and Orchestra, is quite stressful. Maybe Lindberg would be more to my taste there.


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## millionrainbows

paulbest said:


> I note how often you write as arguing a case against some *collective opinionated group* mind set/collective unconscious AKA *The invisible censorship*, which I've also run across quite frenquently, here/there, yonder /the ubiquitous collective VETO, of any idea which they can not fit into THEIR AGENDA's standards.


I know them simply as "The Those," or "The Them," "The Other," COGM (Collective Opinionated Group Mind), "The Secret Society," The Matrix, "Those Guys," and other names.


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## philoctetes

Agent Smith - he duplicates himself and mutates under various avatars...


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## paulbest

millionrainbows said:


> I know them simply as "The Those," or "The Them," "The Other," COGM (Collective Opinionated Group Mind), "The Secret Society," The Matrix, "Those Guys," and other names.


Does there exist, composers/music which caters to, or lets say, are drawn towards, The Illuminati. 
That is if you look at whats on the cd shelf of the illuminatists, which composers do you THINK/IMAGINE one will come across
I have no idea, do you


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## millionrainbows

paulbest said:


> Does there exist, composers/music which caters to, or lets say, are drawn towards, The Illuminati.
> That is if you look at whats on the cd shelf of the illuminatists, which composers do you THINK/IMAGINE one will come across
> I have no idea, do you


Since the Illuminati is rich, we'll probably see a lot of box sets of major composers.


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## philoctetes

paulbest said:


> Does there exist, composers/music which caters to, or lets say, are drawn towards, The Illuminati.
> That is if you look at whats on the cd shelf of the illuminatists, which composers do you THINK/IMAGINE one will come across
> I have no idea, do you


Lindsay Buckingham - Gorecki - Part - Hildegard

I hear they have a thing for Beethoven and Wagner down the street at the Bohemian Club


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## millionrainbows

philoctetes said:


> Lindsay Buckingham - Gorecki - Part - Hildegard
> 
> I hear they have a thing for Beethoven and Wagner down the street at the Bohemian Club


It's a conspiracy, obviously.


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## Littlephrase

I recently had my first exposure to Pettersson through the devastating 6th symphony. A relentlessly soul-crushing and depressing work, full of anguish and grief, with an ending of profound stoic acceptance. This is at least how it sounds to me. 

I’m still not quite sure what to make of it.


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## paulbest

Littlephrase1913 said:


> I'm still not quite sure what to make of it.


 At least you feel something,,others, just like *huh? wel its OK, nothing really too interesting.....*. 
I am still assessing my experiences in Henze. 
Some hear one sym of Pettersson, and stop right there. 
Which tells me Pettersson is meant only for certain people, Like Beethoven is music for certain people, and not for others. 
This all has to do with Jung's book, Psychological Types.

The human personality makeup is a extremely complex thing, which is why we have so many divorces in marriages.

Why would music, great music that is, be a exception to this rule established by Jung. 
Which is why the mods who set up TC, has provided us all with composer rooms.

If you don't care for a certain composer , just stay out of that room. 
Here in the Pettersson's page, we actually are more forgiving and open hearted. We love to have new comers to Pettersson give us their opinions, and try to answer their Q's as best we can.

Perhaps we do proselytize a bit.
So feel free to jump into Pettersson's sym 8. 
Get back with us.


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## Larkenfield

I suggest that anyone new to Pettersson read this thread from the beginning and realize that no one is an expert on this talented but troubled composer. I doubt if some of the people here even understand the negation they’re promoting in a composer with barely a glimmer of light, peace, or serenity in his symphonies or in his violin concerto. The only question is why he took such a consistently bleak road without redemption or mercy despite being so talented as a great orchestrator. I heard no evidence of artistic or personal growth in any of his symphonies and I believe this message needs to be pointed out every now and then. I do not see him making it in the concert halls in acceptance or popularity, except on rare occasion with his 7th symphony and its few moments of calm and a brief cessation from his personal agony, stress, tension, compulsive activity, and his never-ending anguish. He wouldn’t listen to anybody and now his legacy has to live with the disappointing results. I question whether his work will ever have much in the way of universal appeal because it’s way too negative, a negation of the positive and the constructive... and it sounds like his agony-filed world was mostly self-created. I’ve heard a representative example of six of his symphonies (1,6,7,10,11,15) and his violin concerto to get the lay of the land, and that was more than enough because I couldn’t take it anymore and there was no aesthetic payoff or reward. None. Zero. Nein. Just a talented misdirected composer beating his head against the wall and probably blaming the world for his misery. Hinze and Schnittke are an entirely different matter and well worth hearing because of their emotional range and aesthetic rewards. But Pettersson? Never a laugh, not even the glimmer of a smile, even a grudging one, never the slightest ray of hope or a way out of his all-consuming misery. What about love, beauty, forgiveness and mercy?


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## paulbest

You see lark, We Petterssonians, know our composer, we know what he is speaking to US IN A VERY PERSONAL WAY. For the outsiders, sure EVERYTHING you just wrote is true true true. WE do not deny anything you just wrote, applies to those outside his music.

Same here with me, I have nothing to do with a entire host of very, expremely popular composers, past 200 years. 
I deny them all. None will ever see play time on my CD player, Ain't gonna happen. 
So we understand how/why Pettersson is considered as *unacceptable, even appalling, if not worthless trash* by The Outsiders, 
It can not be any other way, it is FATE for you, The Outsiders, yet Pettersson is DESTINY for us.
Follow?
No , guess not as you have not read even 1 word of Plato, Nietzsche, nor Jung, perhaps a word or 2 of the bible. 
The Outsiders are The Outsiders, 
It is impossible for them to break into Petterssons music. Just as I could never, even bya act from God, transform mto a fan of,,,Beethoven. Never had in my 35 yrs 

and never 
will be
any interest developed 
il my passing. I could name another 100 popular/famous composer for whom I have zero interest in.



This is the way music is. A composer music is for a certain personality. A certain conductor is for a certain personality. 
It can not be any other way, Read your history , it is all 
there, what I am saying
I wrote all this , just to be clear that I understand EXACTLY where you are coming from. Why in the universe would you expect me to love, cherish your favorite composers? 
Ridiculous of me to even think your beloved, cherish composers will be even close to mine.
This is a impossibility, 
Every member here on TC has completely, totally different range of music we follow, or better composers we love. 
There in not any 2 people in the entire world, past, present, future who will have any list even close to one another, all will be very different.
You do not care for Pettersson, and most likely, a guarantee I do not like any of your favorite composers. 


So we all know this after some 20 yrs of chatting on classical sites, Its old hat.
'Yet we choose to all get along like one big happy family. 
No cussing, no bickering, no spit balls at any composer. 
There music stands for what it is. 


So we all speak in personal opinions.
and if decide to bring up testimonies such as Horowitz, when he unequivocally says, , when asked *Mozart is my fav composer, he is the greatest*. 

It is nothing more than a testimony which backs our personal beliefs, and we feel good, Especially when we know he did not say *Beethoven is the greatest, I love Beethoven much more than Mozart*. 
He placed Mozart OVER and ABOVE Beethoven. 


So if Pettersson is not your, or the entire universe , for that matter *cup of English tea*. 


What is that to me, if I were the only one in the universe who loved Pettersson.

As I have stated , countless times on TC, the music of Pettersson is something I've been searching for since birth and will carry with me, after my passing. 
His music is more than a part of my life, it is a major foundation to my sense of existence to being in this world. IOW w/o Pettersson;'s music this world would be even less of a 
place I want to hang around. 
Pettersson's music gives a tiny ray of light in a dark, cold, rotten stinkin world in which we live in
His music represents to me,a tiny voice against the big fat mouth of the Illuminati, with its roaring thunderous lies and garbage. 
I could write another 1 T words, But why?
I think you get my message, my point.


----------



## Larkenfield

“Pettersson's music gives a tiny ray of light in a dark, cold, rotten stinkin world in which we live in. His music represents to me, a tiny voice against the big fat mouth of the Illuminati, with its roaring thunderous lies and garbage.”

Well, that’s just it, isn’t it? Some never questioned whether it’s a lousy rotten stinking world. And when was the last time that the Illuminati interfered with your life or Pettersson’s life? Interject a wisdom into Petterson‘s music, but please don’t invoke the names of Plato, Nietzsche, or Jung, when their reality of existence was far more conscious and elevated than the outlook of this composer of negation who, according to you, represents some measure of light in a stinking rotten world that you think exists. What if you’re wrong? And to think that nothing good has ever happened to you is probably also a distortion of reality, a falsity and a gross misrepresentation of life as most people live it, who’ve experienced health, well being, love, relationships, life, inspiration, wisdom, a way out of their misery, enlightenment, and whose lives have been touched by the elusive Illuminati about as much as the man in the moon. 

So what’s wrong with this picture? How about everything, including a lack of gratitude for the good that has happened in your life on rare occasions but probably discounted or ignored. It sounds like Pettersson may have completely missed the boat and his aesthetic of never-ending pain and anguish is probably the last thing a troubled world needs and yet is promoted as representing a ray of light in a rotten stinking world by those who may have never questioned his complete absence of hope that they’re actually hearing. He never seemed to learn anything and sounds completely terrified half the time by the malevolent forces that surround him and seems powerless to cope with. Most disappointing of all, I do not see him as a courageous man or composer, but just the opposite, and there’s no joy in saying it, only a sense of blessed relief that there are no more composers on the horizon who see the world as he did and painted pictures of it in the hope that they would be hung on the walls. What a bleak landscape for anyone to celebrate or revel in as if it represents victory in a troubled world.


----------



## paulbest

lark, 
a bit of a prophesy, you 'll never be initiated into Pettersson's music. 
I just don't see it forthcoming any time soon,,,,,if ever. 

But that's OK, as there are 1000's of other great composers to choose from. 
Who really needs Petterssons music when there are 1000 great composers from the past 300 yrs tradition?
Pettersson will not in 100, 200, , nor ever, become popular. This is a impossibility. 

Popular as say Beethoven, was/is/forever will be, popular. 
Beethoven will remain top 3 for at least another 500 to 1000 years, and Pettersson will remain obscure for at least another 100 years, After the 100 yr epoch, his star will slowly rise above the horizon. But a zenith? 
Ain;'t gonna happen. He'll remain like the winter solstice , , 24 hour twilighted sun, just faintly giving rays over the shadowy horizon. 

Whereas Beethoven is destined to thrill the masses til time is no more.

It can be no other way.
And I hope the Pettersson Project is reading my post, so at least they know, they gave their heart and soul, planted seeds on rocky, arid ground,,,only to see the tiny plants whither and perish yrs later.
So is the destitution of man. 
Pessimist you tag me?
Go right ahead, I consider my self a realist. Why play stupid here. It is what IT,,,IS. 
Yes If I could, I'd lock all Beethoven's works up in dungeon,,,and throw away the key...but really, what good what that do,,,how would this act, bring Pettersson's music forward?
Man has to change within, and what these changes bring,,,no one knows for sure. 
But assuredly, Beethoven will remain as King, The Champ who enthralls the masses. 
Such is mankind's ,,,fate. 
He has no destiny.


----------



## joen_cph

Larkenfield said:


> *I suggest that anyone new to Pettersson read this thread from the beginning and realize that no one is an expert on this talented but troubled composer. I doubt if some of the people here even understand the negation they're promoting in a composer with barely a glimmer of light, peace, or serenity* in his symphonies or in his violin concerto. The only question is why he took such a consistently bleak road without redemption or mercy despite being so talented as a great orchestrator. I heard no evidence of artistic or personal growth in any of his symphonies and I believe this message needs to be pointed out every now and then. I do not see him making it in the concert halls in acceptance or popularity, except on rare occasion with his 7th symphony and its few moments of calm and a brief cessation from his personal agony, stress, tension, compulsive activity, and his never-ending anguish. *He wouldn't listen to anybody* and now his legacy has to live with the disappointing results. I question whether his work will ever have much in the way of universal appeal because it's way too negative, a negation of the positive and the constructive... and it sounds like his agony-filed world was mostly self-created. I've heard a representative example of six of his symphonies (1,6,7,10,11,15) and his violin concerto to get the lay of the land, and *that was more than enough because I couldn't take it anymore and there was no aesthetic payoff or reward. None. Zero. Nein. Just a talented misdirected composer *beating his head against the wall and probably blaming the world for his misery. Hinze and Schnittke are an entirely different matter and well worth hearing because of their emotional range and aesthetic rewards. But Pettersson? Never a laugh, not even the glimmer of a smile, even a grudging one, never the slightest ray of hope or a way out of his all-consuming misery. What about love, beauty, forgiveness and mercy?


You almost seem to suggest that you are talking to deaf ears, based on those experiences. Most of us know that feeling too, in matters of taste, cf. also many a discussion on TC ...

The _8th symphony_ is quite easy to digest and has quite simple, Bolero-like & repetitive ongoings, making it much 'easier listening' than say Mahler's 9th, or Shosty's 14th, IMO. The _Vox Humana_ cantata also has a more simple expression. The long, simple ending in the _9th Symphony _in the Comissiona recording reminds of an adagio by Mahler, or sections of calmness in Pettersson's own former _7th _and _8th _symphonies. As said regarding the _6th,_ I found the Trojahn and Lindberg recordings not sufficiently conveying the beauty in that work. Differences in recordings can be felt as particularly important as regards this composer.

The last half of the _2nd Violin Concerto_ in the Haendel recording shows the emergence and growth of a beautiful melody, but after a lot of stress and conflicts. The _Barefoot Songs_ arranged for choir, also included on that Haendel CD, show him in a lyrical, folksy mood.

As said, he hated the self-pity label:"_Someone once said that I compose out of self-pity. I have never pitied myself; I have never been able to cry. I know of pity for others, but not of self-pity. I find it difficult to hate people, but I do hate those who pity themselves. Self-pity is so damned unproductive. Do you think that I could have composed what I have composed, do you think that one can write a single note with life in it, if one sits there and pities oneself?_" (a quote from the CPO liner notes to the 15th symphony).

IMO, there's a time for listening to Mozart, and there's a time for listening to Pettersson. They supplement each other. But a lot of self-complacency abounds in the classical music world, and it is good with artists who dare to represent different viewpoints, including any parallels with that of a Grosz, Michelangelo or Friedrich, to mention a few often 'grim', but painterly ones.


----------



## Larkenfield

joen_cph said:


> You almost seem to suggest that you are talking to deaf ears, based on those experiences. Most of us know that feeling too, in matters of taste, cf. also many a discussion on TC ...
> 
> The _8th symphony_ is quite easy to digest and has quite simple, Bolero-like & repetitive ongoings, making it much 'easier listening' than say Mahler's 9th, or Shosty's 14th, IMO. The _Vox Humana_ cantata also has a more simple expression. The long, simple ending in the _9th Symphony _in the Comissiona recording reminds of an adagio by Mahler, or sections of calmness in Pettersson's own former _7th _and _8th _symphonies. As said regarding the _6th,_ I found the Trojahn and Lindberg recordings not sufficiently conveying the beauty in that work. Differences in recordings can be felt as particularly important as regards this composer.
> 
> The last half of the _2nd Violin Concerto_ in the Haendel recording shows the emergence and growth of a beautiful melody, but after a lot of stress and conflicts. The _Barefoot Songs_ arranged for choir, also included on that Haendel CD, show him in a lyrical, folksy mood.
> 
> As said, he hated the self-pity label:"_Someone once said that I compose out of self-pity. I have never pitied myself; I have never been able to cry. I know of pity for others, but not of self-pity. I find it difficult to hate people, but I do hate those who pity themselves. Self-pity is so damned unproductive. Do you think that I could have composed what I have composed, do you think that one can write a single note with life in it, if one sits there and pities oneself?_" (a quote from the CPO liner notes to the 15th symphony).
> 
> IMO, there's a time for listening to Mozart, and there's a time for listening to Pettersson. They supplement each other. But a lot of self-complacency abounds in the classical music world, and it is good with artists who dare to represent different viewpoints, including any parallels with that of a Grosz, Michelangelo or Friedrich, to mention a few often 'grim', but painterly ones.


It's your brain and your consciousness that you're in charge of what goes into it, and he's always available to stir the black cauldron as a change from Mozart or just about anybody... I have registered my honest displeasure as recompense and as a way to recoup my considerable investment of time in him and release him back into the void where I feel he belongs. Maybe he was burning off some bad karma that he didn't understand. But when one gets older and has survived many trials and tribulations, it's worth guarding what comes into your mind and heart, and speaking only for myself, I can only say that Mr. Pettersson doesn't qualify... But I never heard any self-pity in his music because I felt that there was no mercy or divine grace in it for anyone, including himself. He seemed to find joy in his own mostly self-created misery rather than looking for a way out. That's where he lost me, not because he couldn't compose, and because I felt that his limited and shortsighted view of life was not admirable nor illuminating and I would hardly consider that universal in its bleak appeal. Maybe at the apocalypse will his symphonies be better appreciated, but I will not be moving on to his 8th Symphony looking for relief from the previous six I've heard, not to mention his 53 minute violin concerto in the same vein.


----------



## millionrainbows

Larkenfield said:


> It's your brain and your consciousness that you're in charge of what goes into it, and he's always available to stir the black cauldron as a change from Mozart or just about anybody... I have registered my honest displeasure as compensation and as a way to recoup my considerable investment of time in him and release him back into the void that he seemed to love. Maybe he was burning off some bad karma that he didn't understand. But when one gets older and has survived many trials and tribulations, it's worth guarding what comes into your mind and heart, and I can only say that Mr. Pettersson flunked. I never heard any self-pity in his music because I felt that there was no mercy or divine grace in it for anyone. He seemed to find joy in his own mostly self-created suffering rather than looking for a way out. That's where he lost me and not because he couldn't compose.


Well, I must say, that's one of the most insightful, sensitive, and humorous rejections I've heard ("...release him back into the void that he seemed to love"). Haa haa!

Larkenfield's rejection of Pettersson is primarily a religious one, in the most general sense of the term. He is "doing the Lord's work" by rejecting Pettersson, and is an "advocate of the light."

Perhaps Pettersson's music is for those of us who have "survived many trials and tribulations" and did not come out "sparking clean" as you seem to have done, by chasing away the darkness, "guarding what comes into your mind and heart," and basking in "mercy and divine grace" which is not legal tender in the present life.

For the rest of us, who have come to accept our own darkness, and have received no reprieve, grace, or mercy, we have come to welcome the darkness as an old companion, and return to the shadows, knowing in our hearts that we have been honest with ourselves and are psychologically whole.


----------



## philoctetes

I'm no shrinking violet with my taste in music nor have I lived a sheltered life and I often scoff at the way Lark hears bad things in newer music but.... I already commented on the 6th, it was ok... so my next stop was the 9th, last Thursday night, and I felt like Colonel Kurtz uttering his last words on earth, or someone being slowly tortured. Won't be going back to that one, there is simply too much good music out there that is fresh, new, and not depressing. 

I admit there are elements of his music I like a lot, but they are not unique or exclusive to his music so I can find them elsewhere.


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## paulbest

Larkenfield said:


> and release him back into the void where I feel he belongs. \.


You see this has been my thought about Beethoven some past decade or so.
If I had the authority, I'd place his scores in a dark dungeon and,,throw away the key,,,however I would not burn them, JNo I would never go so far as that.

wheres the tongue-in-check smiley when you need it most.


----------



## paulbest

millionrainbows said:


> Well, I must say, that's one of the most insightful, sensitive, and humorous rejections I've heard ("...release him back into the void that he seemed to love"). Haa haa!
> 
> Larkenfield's rejection of Pettersson is primarily a religious one, in the most general sense of the term. He is "doing the Lord's work" by rejecting Pettersson, and is an "advocate of the light."
> 
> Perhaps Pettersson's music is for those of us who have "survived many trials and tribulations" and did not come out "sparking clean" as you seem to have done, by chasing away the darkness, "guarding what comes into your mind and heart," and basking in "mercy and divine grace" which is not legal tender in the present life.
> 
> For the rest of us, who have come to accept our own darkness, and have received no reprieve, grace, or mercy, we have come to welcome the darkness as an old companion, and return to the shadows, knowing in our hearts that we have been honest with ourselves and are psychologically whole.


It is simply amazing some of the comments I've read over the years about Pettersson, Its only a few haters, not many, many others who show deep profound thankfulness and gratitude towards the greatest ever symphonist.

The polarization , divisiveness which his music inspires .
You will never ever, find any composer in history which instills these most extremeists positions.

I mean its like Alpha/Omega. 
Not worlds apart, universes apart. 
Men are from,,,women are from,,,,may bev true at times, other times not so true,,,
But here in Pettersson, the divide is like unto no other.

Unprecedented , never to be repeated in this strong of a division. 
We, the Petterssonians, know what we have in our great musical genius, who has provided for us, a art form which allows us to take courage, make it through this evil world. 
While the other camp, would love to destroy his works, with fire, , like the old heretic hunters did to the great Anabaptists. 
I can feel it.
Their contempt , causes them to utter vehemence , mixed with despicable slurs.

These unusual reactions ,, grants us insight into the true value of Pettersson's music. Now when we play the cd, we listen more intently, more embracing the whole. Our souls become bonded deeper, more lovingly with our greatest of all symophonists, Allan Pettersson. 
Whose music will burn bright as a lighthouse on this turbulent might sea. 
Though our boat is in a hurricane with 90 ft swells we yet see his light house, giving us guidance, comfort, encouragements.

The more we see anti-Pettersson's lashing out, , the more his music gains in a glory and eternal power to help heal our wounded

souls
There is the music of only 1 composer which harbors this supernal power, that of Allan Pettersson and no other.


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## Larkenfield

I reluctantly decided to hear Pettersson's 8th Symphony against my better judgment, and I'm glad that I did. I thought it was outstanding! Either his demons and apparitions were leaving him alone or he was fully in control of them. I kept waiting for him to ruin it with excessive tension, crisis and anxiety but he didn't and much of it has a beautiful serenity and sense of landscape. Whatever unusual dimension he's in, one that I've never heard portrayed in sound before, he's expressing the better side of it. Some of his lines and textures and orchestrations were also outstanding - full of character and originality. The Symphony shows an entirely different side of him, his better side, in my opinion, and why the 8th isn"t recommended right off the bat as a starting point to appreciate him at his more constructive best is beyond me. Instead, listeners have to jump through hoops to arrive here... The 8th also impressed me as being somewhat Mahleresque, in a good way. It was also free of the overriding sense of constant pain and anguish that I feel are so much a part of so many of his others symphonies - and I still feel the same way about the dark, stressed-out character of those others. But here? Just magical and beautiful with just enough contrast to keep it interesting. Truly one of the best 20th-century symphonies I've heard and I wouldn't mind hearing it live in the concert hall because this one has a chance to live. I believe it would be an overwhelming experience and I hope others have a chance to hear it:


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## paulbest

Now I am so so glad (reference to Cream's 1969 hit I'm so Glad, I'm so Glad, I'm glad, I'm glad , I'm glad. ,,cool song).
Because I always felt the 8th, is perhaps his greatest symphony. 
It is unique and special.
I's so glad to made the decision to venture into the Petterssons music, if only 1 last time.

And you know if that is the only sym you can find of interest, , that you can connect with, who's to tell you any different.
I am sure there are Mahlerists, Brucknerians, who only love 1 maybe 2 syms of the 2 great composers, and that's it. 


I've come across many times Mahlerians, saying, *Oh yeah, I really love the such and such* movement from this or that sym..I mean, what happened with the other movements,,,*what is your best movement from any Mahler sym...*, and you will see the thread go on for 10 pages. 
I mean, how can one splinter off parts and still love the whole?

I mean what do they do with the sections that are not so thrilled about?



I find the 8th intriguing, opening to closing notes. ..
btw that YT upload is the Comissiona/Baltimore is a interesting ~~interpretation~~~ it is quite different from either the Segerstam/Norropking and the CPO. These 2 are very similar compared to Comissiona
'
I will need more time to hear the Comissiona, as I have he BIS, CPO already locked in memory..I can not recall how the new BIS recording comes off with Lindberg/Norrpoking.


I think I will have to order the Comissiona Baltimore .
Thanks for bringing the record to my attention.

It is definitely different, and allowable. 
btw, I havea friend, who wishes that you might want to try the 14th...he knows of this site and felt you would never ever come around to Pettersson, You see, , Pettersson has his surprises.


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## millionrainbows

paulbest said:


> Now I am so so glad (reference to Cream's 1969 hit I'm so Glad, I'm so Glad, I'm glad, I'm glad , I'm glad. ,,cool song).


Great song, and you know what it's about? Emancipation!
"Tired of weeping, tired of moaning, tired of groaning for you....Don't know what to do, don't know what to do..."


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## paulbest

millionrainbows said:


> Great song, and you know what it's about? Emancipation!
> "Tired of weeping, tired of moaning, tired of groaning for you....Don't know what to do, don't know what to do..."


and after all those times I heard but never understood the words. ,,,
I just ordered the 2 double CD's off Hayden House, has the 4 Pettersson recordings. 
The Comissiona/Baltimore is ,,,quite different,,,may, just might, blow me away. 
And to think of all US major's , it is the ~~~Baltimore Symphony Orchestra~~~~ which brought us this rare 8th recording,,,,UNREAL, Just odd. 
My 1 and only Baltimore SO recording. 
Must have been one 1st rate, highly refined, virtuoso group in that day. 
Could the Baltimore perform it today, as same level, then...?


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## millionrainbows

If Pettersson is the spokesman for the underdog, then surely he would recognize blues music as being valid. You are in New Orleans, the very heart of the blues.


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## paulbest

HA, all this time I thought the song was a Cream original. 
Guess Peter Green as well, took some of his hits from Muddy Waters, John Lee Hooker and other blues giants. 
amazing. 

Well Memphis and Chicago also lay claim to the blues capital. 
Austin Tx , has great blues with Austin City Limits. 


so how to tie in Pettersson here,,,well although John Lee Hooker remained as a obscure artist most of his life,,it was at the very end of his life that he received recognition,,,and got to drive a ,,,,New Cadillac….his dream came true,.,,,,I suspect Pettersson's time is also coming....Great art is always ahead of its time. Always.


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## millionrainbows

Peterson would have wanted a new Cadillac hearse...:lol: Speaking of death, I was listening to Symphony No. 8 (BIS, Segerstam) which seems like a two-part, hour-long 'meditation' in a minor key, and reading the liner notes, which mention that Symphony No. 7 is sometimes referred to as "The Suicide Symphony." Did you know this? 

I wish I'd known it long ago, so I could have indulged my fascination with death. It would have been a good selling point for me.

In light of this, it's understandable that Catholics might not want to "submit" to Pettersson's dark spell.

It also highlights the fact that Americans are coarse and uncultured; if the teenagers had known about Pettersson, they wouldn't be wasting their time committing suicide to dreck like "Suicide Solution" by Ozzy Osbourne.

This Pettersson thread might be the perfect opportunity to explore "the darkness" in classical music, something I tried before without success (the thread was removed) in my thread "Ahh, the Darkness!"

Considering the fact that Pettersson wrote down ideas during his illness, on pieces of gauze and bandages, do you think his music represents Man's preoccupation with death (love/death, too), and represents his seeming destructive tendencies, such as the creation of hydrogen bombs, genocide, etc? We saw what Hitler's immediate reaction was: he prepared for suicide, a love/death with Eva Braun.


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## philoctetes

I too, might have appreciated Pettersson more at 35 than 65, or at certain times in life I'd rather not relive. Darkness isn't so alluring to me anymore, and I seek illumination wherever I can find it. OTOH the kind of easy listening modern CM that sells more recordings doesn't attract me at all.

At this point in life my ears are quite flexible and my mind as well when it comes to music, and I've been a cherry picker for some time. Harvesting the best is hard work when one does it by listening and making subjective judgments. I don't even hope that my "best" will be anybody else's, and I've given up on converting anybody to anything I like. Either they do or they don't. Music opinion is like religious belief when it comes to sharing.

So I'll be giving #8 a chance soon... right now I'm digging on Saygun's quartet, every nice...


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## millionrainbows

philoctetes said:


> I too, might have appreciated Pettersson more at 35 than 65, or at certain times in life I'd rather not relive. Darkness isn't so alluring to me anymore, and I seek illumination wherever I can find it. OTOH the kind of easy listening modern CM that sells more recordings doesn't attract me at all.
> 
> At this point in life my ears are quite flexible and my mind as well when it comes to music, and I've been a cherry picker for some time. Harvesting the best is hard work when one does it by listening and making subjective judgments. I don't even hope that my "best" will be anybody else's, and I've given up on converting anybody to anything I like. Either they do or they don't. Music opinion is like religious belief when it comes to sharing.
> 
> So I'll be giving #8 a chance soon... right now I'm digging on Saygun's quartet, every nice...


So, things are all going to get better from here on? That's an optimist. I agree that music is like religion; no use in trying to convert a Catholic to the darkness. Then, on the other hand, this duality makes them particularly vulnerable when the Devil comes knock-knock-knocking at their door. Haa haa ha! :devil:


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## philoctetes

So many rainbows, yet so much reductionism...

Yes, if I wanted to let negative feelings be amplified by music, now would be a good time to do that. I have plenty of reasons right now to get that way. If I spoke about them someone might say I'm a pessimist. There's really no difference except what I choose to reveal or not.


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## paulbest

I saw new posts here , hoping to find something I could respond to. 

Not sure what all this dark/death words is all about.

Lets try to refocus and stay within the masters genius.


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## millionrainbows

The Seventh Symphony, sometimes called "The Suicide Symphony." Discuss. Come on, man, they say that Pettersson was brutally honest. Let's get down to it.


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## millionrainbows

philoctetes said:


> So many rainbows, yet so much reductionism...
> 
> Yes, if I wanted to let negative feelings be amplified by music, now would be a good time to do that. I have plenty of reasons right now to get that way. If I spoke about them someone might say I'm a pessimist. There's really no difference *except what I choose to reveal or not.*


Ah, yes, and there's the crux: what one chooses to reveal! To be, or not to be. To deny, or not to deny; to live a fantasy, or live a reality. Somebody better call a [email protected]!


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## philoctetes

millionrainbows said:


> Ah, yes, and there's the crux: what one chooses to reveal! To be, or not to be. To deny, or not to deny; to live a fantasy, or live a reality. Somebody better call a [email protected]!


They're too busy finding other diseases for their cures...


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## paulbest

millionrainbows said:


> The Seventh Symphony, sometimes called "The Suicide Symphony." Discuss. Come on, man, they say that Pettersson was brutally honest. Let's get down to it.


He may have been straight up, but like every great, truly great that is, (not propagandized great), like all others,,he hid from people and shunned company like the plague.
Yeah at times composers come out their caves, but not to discuss their music with those who have no understanding...*Suicide sym*, I ain't buying,


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## millionrainbows

paulbest said:


> He may have been straight up, but like every great, truly great that is, (not propagandized great), like all others,,he hid from people and shunned company like the plague.
> Yeah at times composers come out their caves, but not to discuss their music with those who have no understanding...*Suicide sym*, I ain't buying,


You're a good fellow, then.


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## paulbest

millionrainbows said:


> You're a good fellow, then.


Pettersson's music is the only music in my collection which inspires me to rise to my Higher Self. 
All others are just entertainment.


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## millionrainbows

Symphony No. 8 does feel like an extended meditation on a minor chord, in ways like a raga; but I don't get the same sense of peace from Pettersson as I do from Ravi Shankar. I get similar feelings with Bruckner, and parts of Mahler. So, time seems to stand still in Pettersson, or rather, run in place on an "emotional treadmill."

As far as the "Suicide Symphony," there is nothing on WIK to back this up; and I saw that Tchaikovsky's Sixth is also called that, amid protests. 

Ironically, the reference to Pettersson's Sixth as the "Suicide Symphony" came in the liner notes to Symphony No. 8 (BIS).


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## paulbest

Interesting post.

Now I understand hy folks are drawn to Bruckner and Mahler. I do not know either's music, only in parts. 
I have a friend who is also a Petterssonian, (member of TC, but for some oddity can not post a message), he also is a Brucknerian.

Anyway , from reading posts on Mahler threads, I gather his music evokes similar feeling tones in listeners.

You hit the nail, on Tchaikovsky's 6th as music for *the dark night of the soul*…
How many tears have fallen, from the countless depressed souls, while languishing in the 6th sym?
Count me as one, wayyy back in my 1st year as a CM fan. I played the Solti/Chicago LP any/every time I felt suicidal thoughts coming on.

Read Lalo's comment on the YT vid.

Here is the Mravinsky, who takes it differently from Solti/Chicago(perhaps more lush and sentimental vs Mrav's strict conducting). 
Not sure which I would prefer today, with my keener, highly polished critical listening skills.
It really does not matter , as I have no interest in Tchaikovsky.

I grew out of my suicidal depression, so had no more desire to hear the 6th.

Now I have Pettersson, and he will remain for the eon of the eons. 
(= this is exact trans in the bible where the idiot catholics have it as *forever and ever*, idiots)


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## philoctetes

Always amazing to me that a symphony with a circus march can be considered depressing...


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## paulbest

Circus march, the Tchai 6th?
Which section?
Yet what about the highly intense emotional passages , places where the soul is deeply moved to tears and sobs? Thus I and others found music which reflected our death like state, and so we could find strength to live just ,,,one more day?


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## millionrainbows

philoctetes said:


> Always amazing to me that a symphony with a circus march can be considered depressing...


What are you doing, philocetes, trying to explode the "suicide symphony" paradigm we've been working on here? Spoilsport!


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## millionrainbows

paulbest said:


> Circus march, the Tchai 6th?
> Which section?
> Yet what about the highly intense emotional passages , places where the soul is deeply moved to tears and sobs? Thus I and others found music which reflected our death like state, and so we could find strength to live just ,,,one more day?


Listen, maybe "death" is not all bad. Death can also mean "to submit" or surrender one's "ego," like cracking an eggshell, so that the new inner self can shine forth. This "death-like state" of "tears and sobs," as Paul Best so touchingly put it, turned out to be a good thing. He has been there, with Pettersson, with me, and with whoever has suffered deeply.:devil::lol::angel:


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## paulbest

Well all man is in a state of suffering, Not 1 TC member is exempt from that event, universal as it is. 
take france, The proper, real and true title to that land is , The Egregious Downcasts. The lost and wandering soulless. 
Pettersson is THE composer for the Yellow Vesters. He is their voice, speaks their language. 
Yet they know not.
I recall the graffiti post Katrina in New Orleans, I-10 RR bridge at the City park exit, heading west from downtown....
HARSH

I thought,,,in one word, no other


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## Sesto di Napoli

philoctetes said:


> I too, might have appreciated Pettersson more at 35 than 65, or at certain times in life I'd rather not relive. Darkness isn't so alluring to me anymore, and I seek illumination wherever I can find it. OTOH the kind of easy listening modern CM that sells more recordings doesn't attract me at all.
> 
> At this point in life my ears are quite flexible and my mind as well when it comes to music, and I've been a cherry picker for some time. Harvesting the best is hard work when one does it by listening and making subjective judgments. I don't even hope that my "best" will be anybody else's, and I've given up on converting anybody to anything I like. Either they do or they don't. Music opinion is like religious belief when it comes to sharing.
> 
> So I'll be giving #8 a chance soon... right now I'm digging on Saygun's quartet, every nice...


I was about 35 when I first encountered AP, Joshua Kosman in the SF Chronicle recommended a new recording by Comissiona and the Baltimore of the 8th, and I was hooked.

I'm 68 now and a committed Petterssonian. I love the continuity of his thought, his sense of pacing and narrative, the through-composed flow and structure.


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## millionrainbows

Pettersson: Music for Losers


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## Larkenfield

...............


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## Larkenfield

His music _is_ autobiographical according to Pettersson himself but few bother to quote him: "The music forming my work is my own life, its blessing, its curses: in order to rediscover the song once sung by the soul"... "I am not a composer. I am a voice crying out … that threatens to drown in the noise of the times." No wonder there's so much pain, stress and unrelenting anguish in so many of his symphonies when that's the kind of life he lived. The problem is he never drowned in the noise of the world but only the noise within himself in too often an extremely shortsighted way, except for perhaps his Eighth Symphony which is not about drowning in anything at all but which represents the expression of something higher in his nature.


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## paulbest

Sesto di Napoli said:


> I was about 35 when I first encountered AP, Joshua Kosman in the SF Chronicle recommended a new recording by Comissiona and the Baltimore of the 8th, and I was hooked.
> 
> I'm 68 now and a committed Petterssonian. I love the continuity of his thought, his sense of pacing and narrative, the through-composed flow and structure.


 So you were one of the very 1st IANs in this music?
UNREAL

amazing that you came to Pettersson long , long before any of us..
You must have felt isolated and alone,,I mean how could you even begin to share thoughts on Pettersson, when there may have only been say 10K LP's released..,,and how many of those made it to other true Petterssonians?
Some may have bought,,and *what ,,is THIS???*,,,Oh well, ,,and now sits in some attic or garage.,,or city dump....

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fr...313&_nkw=pettersson+sym+8+comissiona&_sacat=0

amazing DG made the recording,,,of all labels,,,DG…

I have it playing now, just received,,,its a fine performance for its time,,,think about it,,of all USA orch's the BALTIMORE is in performance,,,the smallest of the big USA orch's, ,,,yet I seriously doubt if the Chicago, Cleveland, NY, or any other major could have beat this Baltimore ,,,seems they came prepared and more than met this great challenge.

Along with this 8/10,,I just ordered the 6/9,,which I will get to later tonight..
I will posta few notes coming day,s

Will another US orch perform Pettersson in the next decade?

Which orch could perform Pettersson today?

My best guess would be the LA with Salonen and only that duo, and no others.

This is music for Salonen and the Los Angeles SO...

about 13 through the cd,,,its a very fine performance,,,,,,coming in to my fav section,,that tremendous buildup and crash of persecution....No matter who is playing this 8th, I will love it. 
Its hard not to love any Pettersson sym performance.

His music is greater than our life.
Paul
The PetterssonIAN since ,,oh 2003, maybe just before.


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## paulbest

Time to 
revive the Pettersson topic. For those who do not know where to begin in Pettersson, may I suggest, Begin with his 5th symphony which is really Pettersson's first symphonic score to mark out his own individual unique voice. 
So begin at sym 5, then move on to 
6
then 7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15. 
Symphony 12, more like a choral work, may be a bit tough at 1st listen, so its OK to stop at any point and come back later to the 12th. 
If so, move into the 13th
14
15

The 16th symphony is considered a sax concerto of sorts,,That symphony I exclude from his symphonic cycle. 
His viola and violin concertos can be experienced after the great symphonic journey. 
The New Lindberg cycle, might be available as a complete box set sometime in the future, 
The CPO set is a excellent buy and offers excellent performances.

The 5th symphony


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## millionrainbows

If Trump does NOT get re-elected, Pettersson's popularity will take a sharp dive. People won't need depressing music any more.

Challenge accepted! I will listen to his 5th.


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## paulbest

I just realzied how important a work is the Viola Concerto, which , for some reason, Pettersson kept hidden, til after his death the great conductor Ruzicka of the Berlin RSO, came upon the score yrs after the passing of the great swedish composer.
Finland has the Sibelius Academy . 
Poland the Szymanowski Academy and of course many Chopin schools of study.
Will Sweden ever come to acknowledge their greatest composer?
I believe the Norrepoking /Christian Lindburg are trying to do just this task , with their extended Petersson Project. Which aspires to travel world wide to present Pettersson's music in a live performance. 
Not sure where the orch is today/schedules. 
anyway, I just realized, there are not many viola concertos written in the 20th C, and that fact should be noted. 
I consider the viola concerto equal to his masterpiece the VC2 and also stands along with his great 15 sym cycle. 
Its a major success, no fluff, filers, gimmickery.


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## paulbest

millionrainbows said:


> Pettersson: Music for Losers


Yeah Pettersson is like the Death Metal in CM. 
If i were young, Portlander, I'd most likely be a death metal groupie, which i think is more heavy music than just heavy metal, its like the ultimate grunge. 
So yeah, no wonder the romantics can't come around to Pettersson, its for us death metal classical rockers. 
WE love dark, brooding, full of tension and turmoil, angst. Heavy stuff dude. 
Pettersson is a shredder, like Cream at their few minutes of height, on LSD.


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## Gabriele Adorno

Yesterday I attended a performance of Allan Pettersson's Symphony no. 8, with the Norrköping Symphony Orchestra conducted by Christian Lindberg, in Norrköping. Before the intermission, we were treated to Mozart's Piano Concerto no. 22 with Roland Pöntinen.

Short background about the programming: there is an ongoing project by BIS Records to record all the orchestral music written by Allan Pettersson. The project was originally supposed to have ended a few years ago when BIS had a full catalogue of all the works, conducted either by Leif Segerstam or Christian Lindberg, but BIS and Lindberg eventually decided to re-record the symphonies that Segerstam did. So there will be a new recording of the 8th with Lindberg.

I mainly know this work from the Segerstam recording. But there are several other recordings floating around on YouTube, all of which I have listened to. The Segerstam recording is easily the fastest at around 46:30 minutes. The score says 45 minutes (20 + 25). Christian Lindberg's pronounced ambition is to follow what the score says, but of course that's easier said than done. Some of his recordings have been slightly on the slow side, others a tad faster than what the score says. With Pettersson, I have often found that I prefer the latter approach: rather err on the side of too fast than the opposite. Which tempo would Lindberg choose, and how well would he sustain it?

From the first note there was a sense of familiarity: the beginning felt quite close in tempo to Segerstam. Good! The beginning of the 8th symphony has such a lyrical quality to it, combined with a searching for something, an uneasiness coming from these oscillating intervals shared between the violas and second violins. Yet there is a pulsating rhythm pushing on, which gets stronger once the snare drum enters. We reach the first of many climaxes: wow, this is powerful stuff! What a difference it makes to hear this symphony live. The recorded versions are just a whisper compared to sitting a few meters away from the orchestra. Excellent acoustics in the Louis de Geer Hall.

We now reach the "E-F" theme. Some may call this the start of the symphony proper, with the first part being an introduction. I don't know about that, we are after all around 10 minutes into the symphony, or halfway through the first part. Anyway, this is where Lindberg kicks into gear. The effect of the increased tempo might be accentuated by the fact that Lindberg is a very animated conductor, and that he beats everything in common time, even though it's notated in cut time. But I can understand the need for four per bar from looking at the score - it is rhythmically very complex. To cut a long story short: the second half of the first movement was _awesome_. Where Segerstam occasionally slows down, and other conductors go for a much slower tempo, Lindberg was relentless. The first movement as a whole was an intense, frenzied, satisfying experience.

Pettersson now decides that we need a short break before continuing. Quite common in all symphonic literature but here it feels like an anomaly. Unlike the first movement, I don't hesitate to call the start of the second movement an introduction, being around two minutes long. In my opinion, all recordings that I have heard take this introduction too slowly. It is marked as half note = 42, equal to quarter note = 84. Segerstam and Sanderling are in the low 70's, Comissiona and Kojian are down in the 60's or even below. I can't understand why; this section is frankly one of the weakest parts of the symphony so why dwell upon it.

As a whole, the second movement is less coherent than the first (to my ears) and harder to pull off successfully. It is rhythmically probably even more tricky than the first movement; what you hear as a listener often contradicts what's in the score due to the many syncopations.

Around a third into the movement there is a memorable section where everything slows down and the bass instruments (low strings, tuba, bass clarinet and contrabassoon) play in unison with with violas on artifical harmonics. Following that is a section where we are stuck in an A flat minor sense of impending doom, punctuated by violent down bows by solo violins and viola. Very effective.

The build-up to the main climax in the second movement is a little tentative, and the climax itself not quite up to the level of those in the first movement. At this point I felt that there were perhaps some concentration lapses, and towards the end of the movement there were some audible misses. When the final chord had sounded, Christian Lindberg slowly bent forward and let out an audible sigh - of exhaustion? relief? The applause from the audience was very enthusiastic.

What a memorable concert, and I can't wait for the studio recording.


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## Neo Romanza

I can't say that I've been impressed with any of the Lindberg recordings so far (or, at least, from the ones I bought). I don't own them all, but I figured at this point, I might as well just wait for a box set. I own all of the CPO recordings (not only the symphonies, but the string concerti, _Violin Concertos Nos. 1 & 2_ which appear on separate recordings, _Vox humana_ et. al.). I also own the Segerstam BIS recordings, which are all outstanding. Segerstam truly is a master conductor. He has a knack for bringing out qualities whether in dynamics or tempi that other conductors simply gloss over.


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## PeterKC

messiaenfanatic said:


> I have recently finished listening to Petterson's Symphony No. 8 and I am listening to Symphony No. 10 right now. I do not understand why this composer is so under recorded? Is it because his works are dark and moody sounding? His works definitely have a tonal center to them. I find Symhony No. 8 of Pettersson's to definitely be one of my favorite symphonies; that is No. 8 in the middle half of the 20th Century. I need to listen to every symphony of his. Does anyone else enjoy listening to Pettersson's works? If so which ones?


His life was a catastrophic and bitter journey, and it is reflected in his music. He is a very capable composer, but, for me his music is so somber and hopeless it is not worth my listening time. Blessings upon those who love him though.


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