# The Really Deep Classical Music Discussion Thread



## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

This is a really deep classical music discussion (maybe Crudblud and others can be enticed back?).

I might need to sit this one out, since it takes too much time out of my listening and I don't know any deep stuff about CM anyway  but I can eavesdrop and learn some, too.


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## JACE (Jul 18, 2014)

Somebody needs to quote Adorno.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

#1:

"Every work of art is an uncommitted crime." Theodor Adorno


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## SimonNZ (Jul 12, 2012)

"The aim of jazz is the mechanical reproduction of a regressive moment, a castration symbolism. 'Give up your masculinity, let yourself be castrated,' the eunuchlike sound of the jazz band both mocks and proclaims, 'and you will be rewarded, accepted into a fraternity which shares the mystery of impotence with you, a mystery revealed at the moment of the initiation rite." - Theodor Adorno


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

#2:

"The culture industry not so much adapts to the reactions of its customers as it counterfeits them." Theodor Adorno


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2015)

Someone pass the blunt - I'm not feeling deep enough for this thread yet!


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## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

"The task of art today is to bring chaos into order."
-Theodor Adorno


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

"A love of classical music is only partially a natural response to hearing the works performed, it also must come about by a decision to listen carefully, to pay close attention, a decision inevitably motivated by the cultural and social prestige of the art." Charles Rosen


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Two very very deep quotes by Boulez

"The aim of music is not to express feelings but to express music. It is not a vessel into which the composer distills his soul drop by drop, but a labyrinth with no beginning and no end, full of new paths to discover, where mystery remains eternal."

"Stupid, stupid, stupid!" (On the music of Verdi)


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

"In these confused times, the role of classical music is at the very core of the struggle to reassert cultural and ethical values...." Lorin Maazel


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

Every one of these is a discussion  some easier, some more difficult.

Does classical music have the role to reassert cultural and ethical values? How can it do this? Even if so few are listening?


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## Fagotterdammerung (Jan 15, 2015)

How about this, from the "untwelve" website:

"PAUCITONALITY AS INTONATIONAL MONOMANIA. In its more aggravated forms, paucitonality could be defined as an ideology restricting musicians to a single tuning system..."

Is the hand of equal-tempered OPPRESSION being felt in your neighborhood?


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Who gives a f#ck anyway? - The Central Scrutinizer


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

brotagonist said:


> "A love of classical music is only partially a natural response to hearing the works performed, it also must come about by a decision to listen carefully, to pay close attention, a decision inevitably motivated by the cultural and social prestige of the art." Charles Rosen


I have been saying this for years. It is following through with a conscious decision to actively listen that develops appreciation. When I first started to listen, I was caught up in the bizarre-the strange sounds of Xenakis and Stockhausen, etc.-but it was my commitment to listening that eventually took me to other less radical composers. I don't think I was motivated by the "cultural and social prestige." Stockhausen, social prestige? 

So, why don't others make this commitment? Because they don't want to "reassert cultural and ethical values"?


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

starthrower said:


> Who gives a f#ck anyway? - The Central Scrutinizer


Those who would like to have an intellectually stimulating forum, as opposed to one for the exchange of favourite foods and alphabet games.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Two very very deep quotes by Boulez
> 
> "Stupid, stupid, stupid!" (On the music of Verdi)


Right On! Well we finally agree about something. When I listen to Verdi I get so sick I turn green.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

Fagotterdammerung said:


> How about this, from the "untwelve" website:
> 
> "PAUCITONALITY AS INTONATIONAL MONOMANIA. In its more aggravated forms, paucitonality could be defined as an ideology restricting musicians to a single tuning system..."
> 
> Is the hand of equal-tempered OPPRESSION being felt in your neighborhood?


Elaborate, please.


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## Wandering (Feb 27, 2012)

I don't know about a theme song but the drug tripping peyote scene from the 80's western film Young Guns is quite interesting. Back to life, back to reality. _*Did you guys see the size of that chicken?!*_


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## Fagotterdammerung (Jan 15, 2015)

brotagonist said:


> Elaborate, please.


I'm not entirely sold on the idea that equal temperament is a tool of the Illuminati, but here is the screed in full:

http://untwelve.org/what


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Two very very deep quotes by Boulez
> 
> "The aim of music is not to express feelings but to express music. It is not a vessel into which the composer distills his soul drop by drop, but a labyrinth with no beginning and no end, full of new paths to discover, where mystery remains eternal."


Birtwistle has a similar idea, the metaphor of the labyrinth. In fact his 'The Shadow of Night' shares material with 'Night's Black Bird', only that the path taken is different in each case.

But I think music can be a vessel into which the composer distills, mixes, reacts; it's not his soul what gets in there. Didn't Debussy called himself an alchemist? Reactions take time you know, and reaction mechanisms can take very complicated non-linear paths.






"Stupid, stupid, stupid!" (On the music of Verdi)

I tend to agree. I like La forza del destino a bit though.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

Wandering said:


> I don't know about a theme song but the drug tripping peyote scene from the 80's western film Young Guns is quite interesting. Back to life, back to reality. _*Did you guys see the size of that chicken?!*_





Fagotterdammerung said:


> I'm not entirely sold on the idea that equal temperament is a tool of the Illuminati, but here is the screed in full:
> 
> http://untwelve.org/what


I think you guys have taken too much of that stuff


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## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

A deep discussion - does this mean we talk about _La Mer?_ :lol:


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## Fagotterdammerung (Jan 15, 2015)

MoonlightSonata said:


> A deep discussion - does this mean we talk about _La Mer?_ :lol:


Indeed, and _La cathédrale engloutie_. This is at risk of turning into a Debussy thread.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

MoonlightSonata said:


> A deep discussion - does this mean we talk about _La Mer?_ :lol:


Why not? I'm not the moderator


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## Wandering (Feb 27, 2012)

brotagonist said:


> I think you guys have taken too much of that stuff


You sure it isn't the other way around, that you have simply taken too little?


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

arcaneholocaust said:


> Someone pass the blunt - I'm not feeling deep enough for this thread yet!


Don't Bogart it, and pass it this way in a hurry -- I will need to Bogart it if I have to sit in a room with people quoting Adorno. _Phagh!_

(...or I could just leave the room to get that proverbial and literal breath of fresh air 

Hmmm. I'm going for the second option.

Thanks, everyone. _"Great Party,"_ he said, telling the necessary white lie.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

starthrower said:


> Who gives a f#ck anyway? - The Central Scrutinizer


Yep - great line from one of Zappa's great creations. Sorry to be pedantic, starthrower, but I believe he starts with the word 'ultimately'.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Fagotterdammerung said:


> How about this, from the "untwelve" website:
> 
> "PAUCITONALITY AS INTONATIONAL MONOMANIA. In its more aggravated forms, paucitonality could be defined as an ideology restricting musicians to a single tuning system..."
> 
> Is the hand of equal-tempered OPPRESSION being felt in your neighborhood?


Seriously, these sorts of whack jobs need some kind of real life, hopefully in this life, and not the next one


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

MoonlightSonata said:


> A deep discussion - does this mean we talk about _La Mer?_ :lol:


Oh, but isn't Lake Superior like, uh, _deeper?_


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Didn't Debussy called himself an alchemist?


Nothing quite so abracadabra as that; Debussy likened himself to a chemist, actually... trying out new harmonies in his lab. (Trying out new harmonies _on_ your lab is when you play your new piece for your dog... but if you let it be known you were using animals for testing new music it may get a few of the PETA folk readily upset.)


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

The Mariana Trench, now that's a deep discussion.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

brotagonist said:


> #2:
> 
> "The culture industry not so much adapts to the reactions of its customers as it counterfeits them." Theodor Adorno


That actually is deep. I'll think about that!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I don't get it. A thread full of quotes from other people?

No depth from any TC'ers out there? Come on, surprise me!

Anyhow, I can find as much spiritual depth in most Bach WTC fugues that last 3-5 minutes as I can in the entire B minor Mass.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

There is an idea in our culture that a person ought to be an original thinker, having her own ideas about everything. 

The people I've known who best fulfilled that expectation were wrong about everything. 

And therefore I have decided to be as conventional as possible.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

hpowders said:


> I can find as much spiritual depth in most Bach WTC fugues that last 3-5 minutes as I can in the entire B minor Mass.


We know, we know.

You like it pithy.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

hpowders said:


> I don't get it. A thread full of quotes from other people?
> 
> No depth from any TC'ers out there? Come on, surprise me!


I tried, first by posting a few quotes that might serve as food for thought. Then, I asked some questions that followed from some of the quotes, #11 and #14 

There's still hope  For some of you, I suppose all of these conversations have already been had; for others among us, particularly listeners, philosophical thinking about the value and purpose of art is not pertinent to personal experience. Or is it? Maybe that's another idea to think about?



hpowders said:


> Anyhow, I can find as much spiritual depth in most Bach WTC fugues that last 3-5 minutes as I can in the entire B minor Mass.


I have heard a fair amount of Bach, about 24 CDs full, but I have neither heard the WTK nor the Mass


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

science said:


> There is an idea in our culture that a person ought to be an original thinker, having her own ideas about everything.
> 
> The people I've known who best fulfilled that expectation were wrong about everything.
> 
> And therefore I have decided to be as conventional as possible.


If I had a dollar for every original thought I have had, I'd be rich  I cannot tell you how many times I have heard people on television or read books about authors who literally took the words right out of my mouth, years after I had said them... but you have to _be somebody_, otherwise nobody is listening.

I'm sure most of us have felt like this.


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## papsrus (Oct 7, 2014)

brotagonist said:


> If I had a dollar for every original thought I have had, I'd be rich  I cannot tell you how many times I have heard people on television or read books about authors who literally took the words right out of my mouth, years after I had said them... but you have to _be somebody_, otherwise nobody is listening.
> 
> I'm sure most of us have felt like this.


I'm the opposite. I suspect it's very rare to have a truly original idea of any substance or consequence. Your observation that other people have the same "original" idea as you kind of demonstrates this.

Even people who invent things, patent things, are often coming up with variations on old ideas.

But I could be wrong.


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## Fagotterdammerung (Jan 15, 2015)

I'm rather charmed by the redundancy inherent in humanity. Think of it this way: if you don't succeed with your idea, perhaps someone else with your idea will, and the nature of that idea ( to be thought of by multiple different people not in communication with each other ) is more durable than its creators. "Damn, I thought of that years ago" moments no longer bother me. 

The truly unique individual must be terribly lonely.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

All music is created equally; it's a matter of how we listen to it.


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## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

albertfallickwang said:


> All music is created equally; it's a matter of how we listen to it.


I was expecting the second half to be "but some are more equal than others". :devil:


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