# Alternative endings



## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Hope you don't mind, Alan, but I've copied this over to the opera forum as I thought it could generate some amusing suggestions.



Elgarian said:


> Personally I'd welcome a lot more happy endings. Too many operas have dreadfully depressing and/or horrific plots, and while this may provide cathartic experiences that are arguably 'good for us' in some way, I've already had quite enough cathartic experiences of that sort to last me many years. I'd greatly welcome a _Tosca_ where the lovers actually get away, or a _Boheme_ where Mimi recovers.


Don Carlo - Filippo dies, Carlo enters a monastery & Rodrigo marries Elisabetta & they make beautiful love every day.

And thus the baritone gets the girl.


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## karenpat (Jan 16, 2009)

I was very confused when I saw L'incoronazione di Poppea earlier this year because in the only version I had seen previously (DVD, René Jacobs,1993), Ottavia and Ottone were sent into exile together and that was a happy ending for them, while in the version I saw live, Nerone said he'd send Ottone into exile but then shot him, and proceeded to kill off every single character (other than Poppea of course) during Pur ti miro.  I don't know if that was in the original version, but at the time I thought it was depressive. I suppose they wanted to stress Nerone's psychopath character.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

karenpat said:


> I was very confused when I saw L'incoronazione di Poppea earlier this year because in the only version I had seen previously (DVD, René Jacobs,1993), Ottavia and Ottone were sent into exile together and that was a happy ending for them, while in the version I saw live, Nerone said he'd send Ottone into exile but then shot him, and proceeded to kill off every single character (other than Poppea of course) during Pur ti miro.  I don't know if that was in the original version, but at the time I thought it was depressive. I suppose they wanted to stress Nerone's psychopath character.


Well Poppea is going to cop it in a year's time too. If I were her I'd run a mile.

Just checked out the Amazon reviews - the Jacobs version sounds interesting if only for having a tenor in the title role.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

sospiro said:


> Don Carlo - Filippo dies, Carlo enters a monastery & Rodrigo marries Elisabetta & they make beautiful love every day.
> 
> And thus the baritone gets the girl.


Fate worse than death. Never marry the political agitator dude.

Unless...Filippo dies, Elisabetta goes to Morocco to find herself, the Inquisitor gets his come-uppance in some suitably gruesome way, and Carlo and Rodrigo free the Netherlands, get married there and rule Spain together benevolently and wisely for the rest of their days.


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## Herkku (Apr 18, 2010)

Bellini's I Capuleti e I Montecchi used to be performed with a happy ending by Nicola Vanuzzi for many years in Italy. It seems unthinkable today! And completely ludicrous.


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

sospiro said:


> Hope you don't mind, Alan, but I've copied this over to the opera forum as I thought it could generate some amusing suggestions.
> 
> Don Carlo - Filippo dies, Carlo enters a monastery & Rodrigo marries Elisabetta & they make beautiful love every day.
> 
> And thus the baritone gets the girl.


No I like bad endings. Conversely you could have Die Meistersinger where Beckmesser gets the girl. Or Il Barbiere where Dr Bartolo foils the Count and marries Rosina. :devil:


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Alternative ending for Elektra:










Elektra gets 10 points from each juror and wins "Dancing with Opera Protagonist". Could also apply to Salome but it would make opera much shorter.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Sometimes of course, the ending is poised so perfectly and poignantly that even_ I_, wet and soppy though I am, wouldn't wish for a happy end. One such is Massenet's _Sapho_, with Fanny tiptoeing out of the room, and out of Jean's life, while he sleeps. _Suor Angelica_ is another like this, where to change the ambiguous ending would do irreparable harm.

But I'd have liked Manon to get a second chance, and I don't really believe it would spoil it if she did.


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## Herkku (Apr 18, 2010)

Elgarian said:


> But I'd have liked Manon to get a second chance, and I don't really believe it would spoil it if she did.


In the novel Manon gets chanches after chances, but simply can't help herself. It's amazing that any man could have tolerated it all!


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## Gualtier Malde (Nov 14, 2010)

Elgarian said:


> Personally I'd welcome a lot more happy endings. Too many operas have dreadfully depressing and/or horrific plots.


I'm with you there, I'm not into opera to get even more depressed than I already am. Has anyone ever done a count of the average number of _deaths per opera?_ Can't be less that 1.5 probably, and quite possibly much more than that.

Or is it just that the successful composers (or rather their librettists) were particularly bloodthirsty?



mamascarlatti said:


> The Inquisitor gets his come-uppance in some suitably gruesome way.


Don't make it worse than it already is (and I've always thought the Grand Inquisitor is the only character in this piece who seems to know occasionally what he's doing and thus not as obviously mentally unstable as everyone else).


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Apparently Bellini was rather upset at his librettist for I Puritani for not including any big murders.
He said something to the effect of "opera is about crimes of passion, how can I set to music this piece in which nothing happens???"


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## Gualtier Malde (Nov 14, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> Apparently Bellini was rather upset at his librettist for I Puritani for not including any big murders.


This is on my _watch during the Christmas break_ pile. And I even got the version with your favorite soprano. 

But the main project is Wagner's Ring, that should keep me busy for a while.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Gualtier Malde said:


> This is on my _watch during the Christmas break_ pile. And I even got the version with your favorite soprano.
> 
> But the main project is Wagner's Ring, that should keep me busy for a while.


It's a good production, traditional like you want, and I think you'll enjoy it. The libretto is indeed weak, but the music is very good, and Anna of course looks great.


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## Grosse Fugue (Mar 3, 2010)

Not happy but what about a Le Nozze were the Count fires Figaro for his machinations.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Herkku said:


> In the novel Manon gets chanches after chances, but simply can't help herself. It's amazing that any man could have tolerated it all!


OK then. I'd like Manon to get a 75th chance ... and actually take it!


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Grosse Fugue said:


> Not happy but what about a Le Nozze were the Count fires Figaro for his machinations.


Actually I'd like the Countess to fire the Count. You know that the "Contessa perdono" moment will last about half an hour.

(Of course she does really in the next play, where she has a child by Cherubino.)


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Actually I'd like the Countess to fire the Count. You know that the "Contessa perdono" moment will last about half an hour.
> 
> (Of course she does really in the next play, where she has a child by Cherubino.)


But then the Count also has a child out of wedlock... and at the end all is well.


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## Herkku (Apr 18, 2010)

And the Count has an illegitimate daughter of his own, called Florestine...

Ouch! Almaviva had already told this.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Herkku said:


> And the Count has an illegitimate daughter of his own, called Florestine...
> 
> Ouch! Almaviva had already told this.


Of course I did. She is my daughter, right?


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## Herkku (Apr 18, 2010)

Absolutely! How incredibly obtuse of me!


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Rossini wrote both happy and tragic endings for Tancredi. Most performances use the tragic ending. Here is one CD set I found that has both endings included:


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Herkku said:


> Bellini's I Capuleti e I Montecchi used to be performed with a happy ending by Nicola Vanuzzi for many years in Italy. It seems unthinkable today! And completely ludicrous.


I would like to see that. Wonder how it went. Hey, why was Romeo carrying around deadly poison on his person anyway. Was he fearful of enemy capture and torture?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Just like Otello by Rossini, available on Opera Rara with alternative happy ending on the last disc.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Pugg said:


> Just like Otello by Rossini, available on Opera Rara with alternative happy ending on the last disc.


Hmmm, maybe I would like this opera with the happy ending. May have to look into that. Is this the one you are talking about?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Florestan said:


> Hmmm, maybe I would like this opera with the happy ending. May have to look into that. Is this the one you are talking about?


That's the one yeah, as far as I know the only one with two endings.
The Caballe / Carreras ends tragic.


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## Troy (Apr 23, 2015)

I'm of bloodthirsty mind myself, I've always wanted a much more violent ending to Turandot, I've always thought that Turandot's surrendering to love was a bit of a wash, and I've always secretly hoped that when Calaf reveals his name to her that she'd turn around and say "hah! I have you now! It's off to the executioner with you."

On the other hand, a new, happier, ending for The Dialogues of the Carmelites would be great. Like the crowd, moved by the stoicism of the nun's facing death (and that incredible Salve Regina) rush the scaffold and tear the guillotine apart, before any of the executions.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

The Commendatore should have castrated Don Giovanni instead of dragging him to Hell. That way, the opera could have an extra act featuring Don Giovanni as a soprano! :lol:


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Bettina said:


> The Commendatore should have castrated Don Giovanni instead of dragging him to Hell. That way, the opera could have an extra act featuring Don Giovanni as a soprano! :lol:


You are ( very) cruel .
( Sits uncomfortable now)


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

At the end of Peter Grimes, Peter should have bombed the church, one fine Sunday morning, that all the gossipers attended, instead of committing suicide at sea.

He would have felt a lot better as would I.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

How about a make your own opera. They can have an opera with several choices for beginning, middle parts, and ends, thus giving the listener a dozen or so possible complete stories to choose from.


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

Leonora is an idiot for not falling for il Conte di Luna instead of stupid Manrico and sparing us all the tragedy. The beauty and romance of Il Balen alone are enough.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Florestan said:


> How about a make your own opera. They can have an opera with several choices for beginning, middle parts, and ends, thus giving the listener a dozen or so possible complete stories to choose from.


The story I can cope with, I take this forum as subject writhing the score, but the music should do someone else..


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

Tuoksu said:


> Leonora is an idiot for not falling for il Conte di Luna instead of stupid Manrico and sparing us all the tragedy. The beauty and romance of Il Balen alone are enough.


Finally someone agrees, I've been saying this since I first saw Trovatore at 12. XD Di Luna gets much better music and in most cases he's a lot more handsome than the tenor. Also, he lives in a hella beautiful castle (which I didn't know actually existed until recently!).

Especially true whenever Dima was the Count, like, girl... are you blind or what.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Aramis said:


> Could also apply to Salome but it would make opera much shorter.


Was going to mention something about Salome. When I realized what the actual plot was, I had to double check it with like 5 sources because it was so absurd. :lol:


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Tuoksu said:


> Leonora is an idiot for not falling for il Conte di Luna instead of stupid Manrico and sparing us all the tragedy. The beauty and romance of Il Balen alone are enough.


If it's any consolation, it's the deeper voiced males who tend to mate with more females IRL.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The ending of _Turandot_ is famously problematic, with everyone speculating as to whether Puccini could have written a love duet ecstatic enough to make us forget that those two unlikely characters, Turandot and Calaf, are getting it on over the corpse of the nicest person in the opera. Puccini's idea is that the death of Liu transforms Turandot and humanizes her, but in my view it's Calaf who needs transforming. Liu's sacrifice should knock some sense into him, and he should tell Turandot to go and make love to the heads of her victims. She would then fly into a rage and call on her attendants to take him away to be executed, but they, also stunned into reality by Liu's death, would instead grab Turandot and drag her off to the guillotine. The old emperor, relieved to be rid of his problematic daughter, would offer to crown Calaf as his successor. But Calaf, weary of China and its strange ways, and cured of his adolescent erotic fantasies, would refuse the honor and walk off into the wilderness in search of the Holy Grail.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

See Bugs' comment from 2:10


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

Is this a thread about the possible alternate endings existing in famous Opera librettos or the many ways the Bayreuth Festival regiedirectors have shattered the endings of their operas completely changing or axing their meaning?


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## WildThing (Feb 21, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Puccini's idea is that the death of Liu transforms Turandot and humanizes her, but in my view it's Calaf who needs transforming. Liu's sacrifice should knock some sense into him, and he should tell Turandot to go and make love to the heads of her victims.


:lol: ..................................


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

A Tosca in which the catch-net under the parapet is too bouncy and Tosca flies back up onto the castle wall.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

MarkW said:


> A Tosca in which the catch-net under the parapet is too bouncy and Tosca flies back up onto the castle wall.


I believe it's been done already. https://jonathanburton.wordpress.com/2011/01/17/bouncing-tosca-urban-myth/


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

MarkW said:


> A Tosca in which the catch-net under the parapet is too bouncy and Tosca flies back up onto the castle wall.





GregMitchell said:


> I believe it's been done already. https://jonathanburton.wordpress.com/2011/01/17/bouncing-tosca-urban-myth/


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

GregMitchell said:


> I believe it's been done already. https://jonathanburton.wordpress.com/2011/01/17/bouncing-tosca-urban-myth/


Drat! Didn't know it was such an un-original idea (but I should have).


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## Autumn Leaves (Jan 3, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> The ending of _Turandot_ is famously problematic, with everyone speculating as to whether Puccini could have written a love duet ecstatic enough to make us forget that those two unlikely characters, Turandot and Calaf, are getting it on over the corpse of the nicest person in the opera. Puccini's idea is that the death of Liu transforms Turandot and humanizes her, but in my view it's Calaf who needs transforming. Liu's sacrifice should knock some sense into him, and he should tell Turandot to go and make love to the heads of her victims. She would then fly into a rage and call on her attendants to take him away to be executed, but they, also stunned into reality by Liu's death, would instead grab Turandot and drag her off to the guillotine. The old emperor, relieved to be rid of his problematic daughter, would offer to crown Calaf as his successor. But Calaf, weary of China and its strange ways, and cured of his adolescent erotic fantasies, would refuse the honor and walk off into the wilderness in search of the Holy Grail.


…and Ping, Pang and Pong (my favorites in the plot) would rule as a council happily ever after and take turns visiting their beloved homelands.


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## Autumn Leaves (Jan 3, 2014)

Personally, I would have loved it in _L'elisir d'amore_ if Adina had said "Nemorino, I mean it, you're nice, but we're not very compatible" and left off with Dulcamara. Really, for me her scene with him in the second act has more believable chemistry than any of her interactions with either Nemorino or Belcore!

And there's, of course, _The Ring_: I've even written a series of fanfics that are centered around Brünnhilde getting together with Mime (yes, you read this one right).


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Autumn Leaves said:


> I've even written a series of fanfics that are centered around Brünnhilde getting together with Mime (yes, you read this one right).


To do what? Practice dwarf-tossing?


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