# Now it is official: Sir Simon Rattle to join LSO



## shadowdancer

As already predicted by the press, Sir Simon is returning home...
http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-31696988


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## elgar's ghost

I wish him well at the Barbican - before the LSO were in the frame I always had an inkling that after his tenure with Berlin he'd maybe want to give the US a shot.


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## ptr

Good news! Me believes this will be a fine match!

/ptr


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## Albert7

Who will replace him at Berlin then?


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## ptr

^^ It is rumoured that the scientists at the Max Plank institute has succeeded cloning Herbie von K, and that the programming of the clown shall be done in 2018...  

/ptr


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## JACE

ptr said:


> Good news! Me believes this will be a fine match!


I agree. It will be interesting to see how it works out.


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## Couac Addict

No doubt, Berlin will be looking at Phillipe Jordan so they can get a little "swashbuckle".


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## Becca

elgars ghost said:


> I wish him well at the Barbican - before the LSO were in the frame I always had an inkling that after his tenure with Berlin he'd maybe want to give the US a shot.


In the 1980s he was principal guest conductor of the Los Angeles Philharmonic when the MD was Carlo Maria Giulini (thos were wonderful years!). More recently he has been closely associated with Philadelphia.


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## shadowdancer

ptr said:


> Good news! Me believes this will be a fine match!
> 
> /ptr


I think so as well. 
A great orchestra and the LSO Records, Sir Simon Rattle will have what he wants.
Now it is hunting season for the Berliners.


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## elgar's ghost

Becca said:


> In the 1980s he was principal guest conductor of the Los Angeles Philharmonic when the MD was Carlo Maria Giulini (thos were wonderful years!). More recently he has been closely associated with Philadelphia.


That's true, but I was thinking whether the experience gained from his conducting in the States may have had him hankering for a more permanent position over there.


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## Skilmarilion

Cool. I think it's good for classical music in the UK.

I actually haven't been to see the LSO under Gergiev's leadership. 

Need to set this straight before he leaves!


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## Albert7

Couac Addict said:


> No doubt, Berlin will be looking at Phillipe Jordan so they can get a little "swashbuckle".


Noooooooooooo!!! Let's hope not.


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## Lord Lance

albertfallickwang said:


> Who will replace him at Berlin then?


*Daniel Barenboim*. The sorcerers of Berlin and Dresden will unite to manipulate/brainwash all ballot voters into casting their allegiance to the_ genius_ - Barenboim.


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## Becca

elgars ghost said:


> That's true, but I was thinking whether the experience gained from his conducting in the States may have had him hankering for a more permanent position over there.


Probably less, conducting is the least of a US music directors job, it is far more of a political fundraiser!


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## dgee

The second half of this blog post may explain a bit about the inevitability and convenience of Rattle in London:

http://www.overgrownpath.com/2015/02/london-and-dublin-tale-of-two-cities.html

Not conspiracy theory stuff... Just 'how it works'


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## elgar's ghost

Becca said:


> Probably less, conducting is the least of a US music directors job, it is far more of a political fundraiser!


Ah, point taken...


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## phlrdfd

Rattle was heavily courted by the Philadelphia Orchestra around the turn of the century, when Sawallisch stepped down. He said in an interview some years back that turning down the offer was the most difficult professional decision he's had to make, but he has repeated his desire to remain in Europe on a full-time basis periodically over the years. In fact, since he started conducting the LSO more the past few years, in preparation for moving there from Berlin, he has been coming to Philly less often because he doesn't have the time. My guess is that he'll start guest conducting here regularly again after he is finished with the BPO. But in the meantime, I don't think he is doing any conducting in the U.S. aside from when he brings the BPO here on tour.

My guess for his replacement in Berlin is that the BPO won't be able to land the younger conductor they'd like (maybe Nelsons), and will settle for a temporary 3-5 year arrangement with either Barenboim or Jansons to hold them over until Nelsons or another younger conductor who they covet (maybe Nezet-Seguin) is free enough from other commitments to go to the BPO.


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## Albert7

Lord Lance said:


> *Daniel Barenboim*. The sorcerers of Berlin and Dresden will unite to manipulate/brainwash all ballot voters into casting their allegiance to the_ genius_ - Barenboim.


That probably isn't going to happen honestly. Barenboim is way too conservative to conduct at Berlin methinks.


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## Albert7

phlrdfd said:


> Rattle was heavily courted by the Philadelphia Orchestra around the turn of the century, when Sawallisch stepped down. He said in an interview some years back that turning down the offer was the most difficult professional decision he's had to make, but he has repeated his desire to remain in Europe on a full-time basis periodically over the years. In fact, since he started conducting the LSO more the past few years, in preparation for moving there from Berlin, he has been coming to Philly less often because he doesn't have the time. My guess is that he'll start guest conducting here regularly again after he is finished with the BPO. But in the meantime, I don't think he is doing any conducting in the U.S. aside from when he brings the BPO here on tour.
> 
> My guess for his replacement in Berlin is that the BPO won't be able to land the younger conductor they'd like (maybe Nelsons), and will settle for a temporary 3-5 year arrangement with either Barenboim or Jansons to hold them over until Nelsons or another younger conductor who they covet (maybe Nezet-Seguin) is free enough from other commitments to go to the BPO.


If Rattle had come to Philadelphia and I remember that from the olden days, it would have been a rather interesting lateral move.


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## quack

What about Gergiev, has he got a gig lined up, a return to St Petersburg?


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## Albert7

quack said:


> What about Gergiev, has he got a gig lined up, a return to St Petersburg?


Do you mean Gergiev leading the Berliners?


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## phlrdfd

albertfallickwang said:


> If Rattle had come to Philadelphia and I remember that from the olden days, it would have been a rather interesting lateral move.


I have attended probably about 80-85 percent of the programs he has conducted here over the years (he started conducting here during the mid 90s I believe), and I have to say that generally speaking, most of the best performances he led were during the early appearances. One of those was a performance of Gurrelieder that I still consider to be my single greatest concert experience. I have felt for years that a lot of conductors go through phases in their careers. Some are better early and some late. Rattle was at his best early in his career in my opinion. He is still young enough to have another phase though.


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## phlrdfd

quack said:


> What about Gergiev, has he got a gig lined up, a return to St Petersburg?


He is still in charge at the Mariinsky Theatre. But he is also going to be the new music director of the Munich Philharmonic.


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## Albert7

phlrdfd said:


> He is still in charge at the Mariinsky Theatre. But he is also going to be the new music director of the Munich Philharmonic.


Wow, that is really cool. I wonder if there are going to be any new recordings coming out on that front.


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## Skilmarilion

quack said:


> What about Gergiev, has he got a gig lined up, a return to St Petersburg?


The BPO's 'no toothpick' policy has ruled him out unfortunately.


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## shadowdancer

I can't find right now but there was a thread a few months ago about the subject who will be the next conductor/director of the BPO. Note that "who you want" and "who will be" are quite different things. Despite political and historical views, I think there are two young names that would fit: Dudamel and Thielemann. Both are often in Berlin and, as most of the musicians say, are friendly to the Orchestra. There are of course more experienced ones as Chailly in the list. Let's wait and see.


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## Lord Lance

albertfallickwang said:


> That probably isn't going to happen honestly. Barenboim is way too conservative to conduct at Berlin methinks.


Even if Barenboim was a guest conductor only for a year, I'd gladly start a yearly subsciption of The Digital Concert Hall and get to watch all his concerts. Oh, how marvellous that would be!


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## Albert7

shadowdancer said:


> I can't find right now but there was a thread a few months ago about the subject who will be the next conductor/director of the BPO. Note that "who you want" and "who will be" are quite different things. Despite political and historical views, I think there are two young names that would fit: Dudamel and Thielemann. Both are often in Berlin and, as most of the musicians say, are friendly to the Orchestra. There are of course more experienced ones as Chailly in the list. Let's wait and see.


And Dudamel has recorded with the guys before on DG label too.


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## Lord Lance

shadowdancer said:


> I can't find right now but there was a thread a few months ago about the subject who will be the next conductor/director of the BPO. Note that "who you want" and "who will be" are quite different things. Despite political and historical views, I think there are two young names that would fit: Dudamel and Thielemann. Both are often in Berlin and, as most of the musicians say, are friendly to the Orchestra. There are of course more experienced ones as Chailly in the list. Let's wait and see.


If a conductor of Thielemann's calibre becomes Berliner Philharmoniker's Chief Conductor, then it'll be hilarious. Conductors of a much higher stature and calibre and who'd want a piece of the BP cake too many. Chailly being one among many.


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## Albert7

Lord Lance said:


> If a conductor of Thielemann's calibre becomes Berliner Philharmoniker's Chief Conductor, then it'll be hilarious. Conductors of a much higher stature and calibre and who'd want a piece of the BP cake too many. Chailly being one among many.


I still vote Dudamel. And I know that you hate Thielemann lots, Lord Lance LOL.


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## shadowdancer

albertfallickwang said:


> And Dudamel has recorded with the guys before on DG label too.


There is a complex discussion here. 
The BPO has a new label (its own) and for sure they should increase the number of records through this label. It is already predicted till the end of this year the Sibelius cycle recorded last month.

Even with DG strong legacy I am not sure that nowadays this has an influence over BPO.
Time shall tell us....


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## shadowdancer

Lord Lance said:


> If a conductor of Thielemann's calibre becomes Berliner Philharmoniker's Chief Conductor, then it'll be hilarious. Conductors of a much higher stature and calibre and who'd want a piece of the BP cake too many. Chailly being one among many.


Once I read an interview with a musician from the BP and Maestro Chailly about the conductor receiving the fictional "BPO key". It means that the conductor "has" the orchestra on its best way. Chailly has this "key".
Unfortunately in the same interview the musician (I think was a Cello player from the Berliners) gave as a counter example, Maestro Celibidache. This last never got the "key".

Despite our opinions, one thing is for sure: Thielemann has the "key". 
The musicians react to his conducting.


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## Itullian

I have my Bohm, Klemperer, Bernstein recordings so I'm not worried.


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## Becca

While I am sure that there is a significant minority of the BPO who would like Christian vonKarajanRedux Thielemann as the next MD, I suspect that most of the younger musicians will not be hankering for a return to the old ways especially as Thielemann comes with rather a reputation and one that he hasn't exactly burnished with some of his recent political comments.


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## shadowdancer

Becca said:


> While I am sure that there is a significant minority of the BPO who would like Christian vonKarajanRedux Thielemann as the next MD....


Can you please provide a source that support this?


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## Becca

shadowdancer said:


> Can you please provide a source that support this?


It is stated as opinion not fact.

It is interesting to read the opinion column which Fergus McWilliam (2nd horn in the BPO) wrote for Tuesdays Guardian, he effectively states that a majority of the orchestra wanted a significant shift when they voted for Rattle, and a shift that they got.


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## shadowdancer

Becca said:


> It is stated as opinion not fact.
> 
> It is interesting to read the opinion column which Fergus McWilliam (2nd horn in the BPO) wrote for Tuesdays Guardian, he effectively states that a majority of the orchestra wanted a significant shift when they voted for Rattle, and a shift that they got.


Fergus McWillian is a one of the few member with 30+ in the BPO. His opinion should always be heard. IIRC, he is also member of the Council. I do agree about the shift and I think that this time both orchestra and public opinion will ask for a shift again. The question is: define a "shift".

When I lived in Germany and was relative often at the Philharmonie, it was quite clear that almost nobody from the public (excluding tourists that were there only to take pictures) liked Rattle's reportoire and style.


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## Becca

shadowdancer said:


> Fergus McWillian is a one of the few member with 30+ in the BPO. His opinion should always be heard. IIRC, he is also member of the Council. I do agree about the shift and I think that this time both orchestra and public opinion will ask for a shift again. The question is: define a "shift".
> 
> When I lived in Germany and was relative often at the Philharmonie, it was quite clear that almost nobody from the public (excluding tourists that were there only to take pictures) liked Rattle's reportoire and style.


What is quite intriguing is to watch the Digital Concert Hall broadcasts when Rattle is conducting as there seems to be a sizable portion of the audience who love Rattle as noted by the level of applause that noticeably increases whenever he steps back onto the podium to acknowledge the audience. Also noteworthy are the number of times that he gets called back for a solo bow after the orchestra has left the stage, something that I don't often see with other guests. While perhaps some of this is tourists, I have difficulty believing that it is not mostly regular concertgoers.

I am aware that Rattle's popularity in Berlin has been somewhat cyclic, driven partly by critics, but his popularity really does seem to have been on an upward swing for some years.

Added afterwards:
I should note that I have never been to the Philharmonie but I regularly attended Rattle's concerts in Los Angeles during the earlier years of his career.


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## hpowders

I have listened to enough Rattle recordings that I can brand him as "undistinguished".


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## Albert7

Becca said:


> While I am sure that there is a significant minority of the BPO who would like Christian vonKarajanRedux Thielemann as the next MD, I suspect that most of the younger musicians will not be hankering for a return to the old ways especially as Thielemann comes with rather a reputation and one that he hasn't exactly burnished with some of his recent political comments.


Christian Thielemann's anti-immigrant stance already eliminated him from the liberal BPO selection committee as far as I know.


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## realdealblues

I'm interested to see who will take over Berlin.

I pray it isn't Dudamel or Thielemann. I have yet to hear anything worthwhile come from either of them.


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## Lord Lance

albertfallickwang said:


> I still vote Dudamel. And I know that you hate Thielemann lots, Lord Lance LOL.


So formal.... Y'can call me Bear..... Just bear...

Nah.... Thielemann's Beethoven 9 was actually quite good and sometimes actually intense whereas Dudamel... marketing fluff.


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## Albert7

Lord Lance said:


> So formal.... Y'can call me Bear..... Just bear...
> 
> Nah.... Thielemann's Beethoven 9 was actually quite good and sometimes actually intense whereas Dudamel... marketing fluff.


Marketing fluff, where did you get that from?

Hardly so.


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## Lord Lance

albertfallickwang said:


> Marketing fluff, where did you get that from?
> 
> Hardly so.


Well hardly any objectivity exists in assessment of a conductor - expect Herr Furtwangler and Karajan - but, from what I hear, he looks all standard run-of-the-mill conductor.


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## Albert7

Lord Lance said:


> Well hardly any objectivity exists in assessment of a conductor - expect Herr Furtwangler and Karajan - but, from what I hear, he looks all standard run-of-the-mill conductor.


Then you really haven't ever listened to him at all. In fact, have you even ever picked up a recording of Dudamel's?


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## Lord Lance

albertfallickwang said:


> Then you really haven't ever listened to him at all. In fact, have you even ever picked up a recording of Dudamel's?


I have heard some of his recordings:





Mahler 5 [DG]












 [Grabbing for works out of his reach here]

Plus when there are host of impeccable conductors who do manage to impress me why waste time with the new-breed?


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## Albert7

Lord Lance said:


> I have heard some of his recordings:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mahler 5 [DG]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Grabbing for works out of his reach here]
> 
> Plus when there are host of impeccable conductors who do manage to impress me why waste time with the new-breed?


Yes... I still think that he can be better than Furtwangler in many many cases.


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## Lord Lance

albertfallickwang said:


> Yes... I still think that he can be better than Furtwangler in many many cases.


Lot of recordings exist that are better than all recordings of Furtwangler every where in every decade. For me, Furtwangler has that romantic lust. His only exclusive recordings are the recordings of his own works. There's better elsewhere. _As always._

Examples:

Boult
Barenboim
Abbado
Giulini
Klemperer
Karajan
Beecham
Stokowski
Solti
Asahina
Wand
Jochum
Chailly

Yes - they all have satisfying interpretations of the central German repertoire [Also known as Furtwangler's forte]

For example:

Beethoven to Karajan ['83 Eroica and 9]
Brahms to Klemperer
Bruckner to Asahina
Stokowski to Mahler
Solti to Mahler
Barenboim to Bruckner and Beethoven [His Brahms was uninteresting]
Wand to Beethoven, Brahms and Bruckner
Jochum for Bruckner and Beethoven
Chailly for Bruckner and Brahms [Immolation-worthy Beethoven cycle]
Klemperer for Brahms and Beethoven [Demonic playing]

Ultimately you choose whether you want to hold on to a fool's notion that older recordings have a lust that is irreplaceable or be mature and realize that there is always better.

But, not in Dudamel or Roger "Speed=Greatness" Norrington.

All the while I recognize Furtwangler being one of the greatest conductors of all the time. Still, since modern conductors aren't inept dimwits, I wouldn't trash them but since Furtwangler was the embodiment of furious rage, I say - peaceful co-existence. A bit of this, a bit of that.


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## Lord Lance

albertfallickwang said:


> I still vote Dudamel. And I know that you hate Thielemann lots, Lord Lance LOL.


Heard Thielemann's Beethoven 3. I approve.


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## phlrdfd

Lord Lance said:


> Well hardly any objectivity exists in assessment of a conductor - expect Herr Furtwangler and Karajan - but, from what I hear, he looks all standard run-of-the-mill conductor.


I think that happens in part because he was a little less standard in his early recordings, and that may still impact how some people view him. Also, he basically conducts as if the HIP movement never happened, which is exceedingly rare today. So while he may not conduct like Furtwangler or Karajan, his conducting style/tempos would have probably been accepted as more "normal" back in the days when at least Karajan was still conducting than now, when it seems like almost every other major conductor at least pays some respect to HIP practices when conducting, for instance, a Beethoven symphony (Barenboim may be another exception to that rule). 
I'm sometimes bored by Thielemann's performances, although I did hear a broadcast of the Eroica by him and the BPO fairly recently that I enjoyed quite a bit; probably as much as any Beethoven I've ever heard from Thielemann. I also consider him to be one of the best active Bruckner conductors. 
All of this seems moot in light of all that has been written about his lack of chances for the BPO job (due in large part to his political and cultural views).


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## Albert7

Thielemann is a wonderful conductor but sadly enough, his political views make it tough for the lateral move. However, at least he is actively recording on DG so that's a good sign!


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## Lord Lance

albertfallickwang said:


> Thielemann is a wonderful conductor but sadly enough, his political views make it tough for the lateral move. However, at least he is actively recording on DG so that's a good sign!


Yes. His Brahms' cycle should be decent hopefully. I have it with me but unsure if its worth a listen. Thoughts?


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## Albert7

Lord Lance said:


> Yes. His Brahms' cycle should be decent hopefully. I have it with me but unsure if its worth a listen. Thoughts?


Just put it on without hesitation... your ears are the best judge.


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## Lord Lance

albertfallickwang said:


> Just put it on without hesitation... your ears are the best judge.


Thanks for the compliment. And true. Let us see if he is all pomp, no show.


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## Albert7

Lord Lance said:


> Thanks for the compliment. And true. Let us see if he is all pomp, no show.


I still vote Dudamel as my first choice but then again I would be supportive of a young dark horse to come up to the podium. Rattle was good but not necessarily the ultimate conductor for BPO.

Also there are most wonderful conductors who are waiting to get into the wings of the BPO.


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