# Do classical concerts work?



## digitalmatt (Jan 13, 2019)

I am interested in getting a sense of how the way classical musicians present classical music (from any period) affects how audiences listen.

Mainstream discourse has circled around the lack of programming of music by women, non-binary, and composers of color and answers regarding this issue are of course welcome, but I am also interested in gaining an understanding of how the rules set in place for the audience by the concert or recital hall has affected your individual experience as a listener.

Things to discuss could be:
-What do you like/not like about classical concerts?
-Do you lose focus in classical concerts?
-Do you feel like you could be expressive as an audience member of a classical concert?
-Do you prefer to listen to classical music as an audience member or on headphones/earbuds?


Thank you for your input!


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2019)

As much as I enjoy going to concerts, I prefer to hear things I haven’t heard before. I end up seeing a lot more New Music because of this. I only ever lose focus if the performance is something I find a bit boring. 

I’m actually much more fond of seeing Opera when it comes to older repertoire as there are always very interesting new ways to present the same works when it comes to the staging.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

*What do you like/not like about classical concerts?* I like hearing music in a good, open, resonant environment. I like the thrill of a live performance where there are no re-takes, no mulligans. A high wire act. I like listening to great music with other people who appreciate it. I do not like the constant repetition of worn out, tired repertoire. I despise audience members who want to talk, unwrap candy, play with their phones, etc. I loathe our current star system where the conductor/pianist/violinist or whoever has become more important than the music and the composer. Unfortunately, for too many people, the performer is the most important aspect of a concert.

*Do you lose focus in classical concerts?* If it's dull or uninspired, you bet. I've been to too many deadly dull concerts by big name orchestras with over hyped conductors. And I've been to some exciting, spine tingling ones with lesser orchestras.

*Do you feel like you could be expressive as an audience member of a classical concert?* What do you mean? Applause is about all I'll do.

*Do you prefer to listen to classical music as an audience member or on headphones/earbuds?* This is going to seem like heresy, but frankly listening at home is fine, and in some ways better than the live concert. No audience distractions, no squirming kids, I can refill my Scotch when I want...I've been to many memorable concerts live, but a lot more that are frankly forgettable. If I lived in a place like London, Berlin, or New York where you could hear world class playing every night, maybe I'd do that - it would be expensive. And honestly, I get more out of the music often at home with a high end system playing at high volume. For deep listening, headphones are great but you don't get the physical sensation a good subwoofer can generate. A good audio system can do amazing things. Things sound better in my studio than they do live in places like Royal Albert Hall. Then there's Boston's Symphony Hall - stunning sound that no home system can possible recreate.

Nearly 60 years ago pianist Glenn Gould said that in the future, people will primarily consume music in their home from recordings. He may have been right. I am a subscriber to the Berlin Philharmonic Digital Concert Hall - it's thrilling. The sound is terrific, the video very well done. When I watch a concert live I do feel like I'm really there in the Philharmonie. I hope that more orchestras will do something like it. It's even better than cds, cheaper than traveling, and a remarkable bargain. Just get a really good surround sound system, fill up that drink and enjoy!


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Some general thoughts: I go to a lot fewer than when I was younger, because I "know" more music and don't need necessarily to hear it live.

I prefer accepted concert deportment because I can concentrate better, although being able to laugh at something funny (either in the music or by the performer) might be nice, nothing keeps me from breaking into a broad smile. Rhythmic clapping, cheering, smoking dope, or being unable to really hear music because it's so loud, is okay for pop concerts but not for CM.

Hearing, and being able to judge, a new or unfamiliar work, is always better live. (Although sometimes a live performance can sound more effective or make the piece seem better than it actually is. )

A drawback is havng nothing to do with my eyes but watch the performers. (I find reading the program to be impolite and possiby distracting to others.

If I know the work and find the performance bad, my brain often compensates and fills in -- which kind of defeats the purpose of live.


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## fliege (Nov 7, 2017)

*-What do you like/not like about classical concerts?*
I go because I find I can get deeper into the music without distractions of home. So I get more out of it. It's also easier to follow musical lines being passed around an orchestra when it's in front of you because you can see what's going on and because you have more auditory cues to that effect also.

I don't like when the person a few seats over decides that the beginning of the Beethoven slow movement is when they really need to spend 5 minutes extracting a bottle of water from a loud plastic bag. Conversely, some pieces of music just don't seem to me like they are supposed to be received in rapt silence. However, since that's deal in classical concerts I'll just suck it up.

*-Do you lose focus in classical concerts?*
Not as a rule. If I find the music boring for some reason or I'm tired then I may zone out a little. I find concerts after work are more likely to be challenging in that regard. I make a point of becoming familiar with what I'm going to hear so as to avoid this. I feel this is the way to get the most from my money and time investment.

*-Do you feel like you could be expressive as an audience member of a classical concert?*
No way. I behave how I wish others would behave: I sit still, I don't pull crap out of my bag, or yawn. Can't go wrong this way.

*-Do you prefer to listen to classical music as an audience member or on headphones/earbuds?*
In terms of sound _quality_ I don't perceive a difference. However, a recording is always going to be _different_ to the live experience because it's a polished product of a sound engineer's art. Live music is more exciting and sounds different from venue to venue so I treasure it as a unique experience. Over earphones I'm more likely to listen whilst doing other things, unless I set aside time to specifically listen to something.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I think we need to follow Gould more with interpretations and take strong liberties with the works and make them unique.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

-What do you like/not like about classical concerts?
What I dislike primarily is the cost since I buy for me my wife and son. A trip to London Royal Festival Hall can set us back near on £200 if someone famous is the soloist. Audience noise - coughing etc - I hate that. Last minute substitutions - soloist has sprained his ankle sorry no refunds - we have a much lesser soloist who has kindly stepped in to replace - that makes my blood boil. And of course top soloists that put in a mediocre performance. Audience loud applause and cheers when it is not deserved. The sheep will usually clap anything. Sticking a contemporary piece in an otherwise good program.

-Do you lose focus in classical concerts?
Not if the piece and performance are good.

-Do you feel like you could be expressive as an audience member of a classical concert?
No I just sit and listen. Im not one to do a standing ovation and I don't shout bravo.

-Do you prefer to listen to classical music as an audience member or on headphones/earbuds?
As audience member. But I feel little need to attend concerts as sound system quality and availability of fine recordings means I can get any music I want. The one thing I would go out of my way for is opera as home listening while enjoyable does not really substitute the experience. I dont need to see an orch doing its job but I do need to see what's going on on the opera stage. DVD is not a bad substitute I suppose.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I would like to see classical concerts - chamber, orchestral, singing - become more common and cheaper (so, I guess, subsidised). I would be happy for the halls and the available refreshments to be very basic. I would like the seating arrangements to be less formal for some music - sitting on the ground would be fine for a lot of music - and might also enjoy seeing attempts to reproduce concert conditions and styles of earlier ages for Classical and Baroque music. 

-What do you like/not like about classical concerts?
I like the better sound and the sense of occasion. I would like more adventurous programming and less formality. I would like much more concerts being near me. I would like more sense of joy.

-Do you lose focus in classical concerts?
On the contrary, I tend to focus more ... which disturbs my more rather unfocused and chilled way of listening. 

-Do you feel like you could be expressive as an audience member of a classical concert?
I'm not clear what this means. I guess I wouldn't want to vocalise "yeah" or applaud a particularly felicitous phrase with most CM - as I might with jazz or (Indian) ragas. I guess being expressive in this way suits improvised music?

-Do you prefer to listen to classical music as an audience member or on headphones/earbuds?
I'm not a big headphone fan.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I think we need to follow Gould more with interpretations and take strong liberties with the works and make them unique.


A viewpoint that suggests you are so familiar with the normal performance approaches that you need a shock to get inspired by the music?


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## morsing (Jan 14, 2019)

*What do you like/not like about classical concerts?*

Not to like: They're on Thursdays (usually)

Like: Atmosphere, watching the orchestra, and sound is awesome, if a properly designed hall

*Do you lose focus in classical concerts?*

If I'm tired, and I don't know the music, yes. Also, being on a Thursday, I would have had a long day at work, so more likely to be tired and lose focus.

*Do you feel like you could be expressive as an audience member of a classical concert?*

Not sure I understand what you're after, but, could, not rally, would, no.

*Do you prefer to listen to classical music as an audience member or on headphones/earbuds?*

Audience member. However, it the quality of concert hall (acoustics) makes a big difference. Also, the answer to the question does not take travel time in to account, not that the concert is likely to be on a Thursday.
Sadly, living 1.5h from London, being an audience member means travelling after work to a poorly acoustically designed symphony hall, on a Thursday, and coming back at 11pm, then get out of bed at 5:30 the next morning.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I prefer intimate chamber music concerts at schools or churches. Everyone is in close proximity and after the concert people mingle and meet the musicians. I have no interest in blowing half a week's pay on some famous orchestra or soloist. We don't really get those artists in my small city anyway. But we do get world class chamber ensembles thanks to our local society organization.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Enthusiast said:


> A viewpoint that suggests you are so familiar with the normal performance approaches that you need a shock to get inspired by the music?


I'm just good at sensing when something is inspired or not, that is what I'm getting at.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^^ But that begs the question about which interpretations or performers you find lacking in inspiration! I would guess we all prefer our music to be inspired.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Live music is best!!


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

I'll ignore all the women/non-binary nonsense if I may. Is it great music? That's all that matters.

-What do you like/not like about classical concerts?
I go to many classical concerts. Currently in Budapest so this January I'll have seen 16 classical concerts or operas. Obviously I like them. It's better than staying in with the TV, plus I get to see friends and share coffees, drinks and good conversation. I get to support the music industry, be part of the cultural life of a city and engage my ears and brain in the most delightful ways. I also support by engaging with soloists, orchestras and venues on Twitter. NOT LIKE: I think that concert halls should enhance the audience experience with screens focussing on the soloist, conductor or featured instruments, i.e. the relevant violin/oboe/flute passages. It's absurd to build halls in the modern era without this technology IMO.

-Do you lose focus in classical concerts?

Honestly, sometimes yes, as we do in so many other things, but it's about focus and mindfulness. 

-Do you feel like you could be expressive as an audience member of a classical concert?

I'm not sure I know what this means, other than clapping. I'm not there to be expressive other than to thank the performers for their efforts, by way of applause.

-Do you prefer to listen to classical music as an audience member or on headphones/earbuds?

As an audience member, by a country mile! Although I like recorded music as well, of course.


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

Are you questioning the decorum that is followed for classical concerts, that the audience is expected to keep mostly perfectly still until the end? Unlike other kinds of concerts where the audience is allowed to scream, fidget, smoke pot, stand up and stretch, sing along, etc..

It's absolutely necessary. I like that silence is required. Sure, at home I can walk around do chores and hum along while listening, but our personal noises would be distractions to others in a concert hall and everyone's noise together would make it impossible to concentrate. Classical music has subtleties that other music may not have and requires silent attention.

The one thing about live concerts that causes me dread is the potential behavior of audience members around me. I especially worry when the artist is so popular that some of his fans are not regular classical music listeners and may have difficulty behaving themselves as expected. A Boston Symphony concert that featured James Galway was a case in point. He had a few fans stamping their feet and singing along. It was an outdoor venue and easier for them to get away with.

But I don't mind some subtle form of expression from the audience, a sigh or quiet laugh at the end of a movement if it's appropriate and not done to be dramatic.


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

"Do you feel like you could be expressive as an audience member of a classical concert?"

I can be very expressive once the piece is over. I'm someone who will not just clap but whoop enthusiastically - I think this is encouraging to performers though I probably deafen the person in front of me. I'm easy to coax into a standing ovation, I don't debate over how good this was compared to other performances. And I'll stay till the end, it's rude to jump up and leave unless it's an emergency.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I have enjoyed a fair amount of concerts in my time but the thing I don't like the most is the increasingly ageing audience. I'm not exactly a spring chicken but I've got a fair amount of time before I reach my dotage. The concerts where there is a wider range of ages are either at universities or by the smaller and inevitably less prestigious ensembles where relatives, including siblings and children, of musicians involved are in the audience. It might not be an audience of connoisseurs - and does that really matter? - but it’s natural to want to be amongst a diverse group of people. I would bet that older people feel the same.


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## fliege (Nov 7, 2017)

Sid James said:


> I have enjoyed a fair amount of concerts in my time but the thing I don't like the most is the increasingly ageing audience. I'm not exactly a spring chicken but I've got a fair amount of time before I reach my dotage. The concerts where there is a wider range of ages are either at universities or by the smaller and inevitably less prestigious ensembles where relatives, including siblings and children, of musicians involved are in the audience. It might not be an audience of connoisseurs - and does that really matter? - but it's natural to want to be amongst a diverse group of people. I would bet that older people feel the same.


I agree. I'm in my 30s and I feel pretty young at most concerts I attend. Based on overheard conversations I think a lot of younger audience members are musicians. But it's all sorts: once I set next to a woman about my age who came to CM recently from heavy metal. We had a good chat as I did a somewhat similar thing. I'm not sure how to reach people like us to introduce them to CM. It's pretty difficult given how much music is out there: people know what they like and there's so much of it that they don't need to go looking elsewhere.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I think we need to follow Gould more with interpretations and take strong liberties with the works and make them unique.


I agree ... minus Gould's infernal humming.


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

Sid James said:


> I have enjoyed a fair amount of concerts in my time but the thing I don't like the most is the increasingly ageing audience. I'm not exactly a spring chicken but I've got a fair amount of time before I reach my dotage. The concerts where there is a wider range of ages are either at universities or by the smaller and inevitably less prestigious ensembles where relatives, including siblings and children, of musicians involved are in the audience. It might not be an audience of connoisseurs - and does that really matter? - but it's natural to want to be amongst a diverse group of people. I would bet that older people feel the same.


The only thing that disturbs me about an older audience is that doesn't look good for the future of classical music. If everyone listening is old, who will be listening in 20-30 years?

Yet, somehow, it has always been this way in my experience. When I was in my early 20's, decades ago, the audience was mostly grey-headed then. Yet somehow there is still an audience today.

I think older people just have more money to spend on live concerts. Younger people have other things on their mind, they want to spend most of their time with masses of people their own age so they can meet "the one" and then they have families and are consumed by family activities for many years. Older people are at that stage in their lives where they have the time and temperament to contemplate the beauties that classical music reveals.

Anyway, I find it ageist that you care what the people around you look like. Older people are diverse and have accumulated lots of experiences that make them interesting. It can be fun to talk to the person next to you at intermission, why do you care how old they are?


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

fliege said:


> I agree. I'm in my 30s and I feel pretty young at most concerts I attend. Based on overheard conversations I think a lot of younger audience members are musicians. But it's all sorts: once I set next to a woman about my age who came to CM recently from heavy metal. We had a good chat as I did a somewhat similar thing. I'm not sure how to reach people like us to introduce them to CM. It's pretty difficult given how much music is out there: people know what they like and there's so much of it that they don't need to go looking elsewhere.


So you think the majority of younger audience members are musicians and you'd like to meet some who aren't, who are just listeners like yourself. That's how I felt at your age.

There are so many resources today. Everything is on youtube. It isn't from lack of exposure that so few young people listen. I just think classical will always have a small audience. It could be growing in parts of the world where it didn't originate, like Asia, and that will perpetuate it, but I'm not sure how to grow it amongst younger people in the western countries.

Some people start clubs or meetups where they invite strangers into their homes (screening them beforehand as much as possible) who might have the same interests in music. I don't know how successful these are. Most of them seem to fall apart.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

fliege said:


> I agree. I'm in my 30s and I feel pretty young at most concerts I attend. Based on overheard conversations I think a lot of younger audience members are musicians. But it's all sorts: once I set next to a woman about my age who came to CM recently from heavy metal. We had a good chat as I did a somewhat similar thing. I'm not sure how to reach people like us to introduce them to CM. It's pretty difficult given how much music is out there: people know what they like and there's so much of it that they don't need to go looking elsewhere.


If you mean to win friends or colleagues over to classical, well that's difficult. I don't think it's necessary, because musical taste is such a personal thing. It's natural though to enjoy music with others who are of similar age to you. In terms of my own experience, it at least somewhat contributed to making me feel isolated from my peers when I was growing up, but other factors also impacted on this.



Open Book said:


> ...Anyway, I find it ageist that you care what the people around you look like. Older people are diverse and have accumulated lots of experiences that make them interesting. It can be fun to talk to the person next to you at intermission, why do you care how old they are?


While you make solid points in your first three paragraphs, I am dismayed that you find my comments to be ageist. I am merely making a choice as a consumer. I can't see how I could have avoided being called ageist other than not posting my response at all. I hope that the topic of age isn't taboo on this forum?


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## Judas Priest Fan (Apr 27, 2018)

fliege said:


> But it's all sorts: once I set next to a woman about my age who came to CM recently from heavy metal. We had a good chat as I did a somewhat similar thing.


I am 53, and up until about 2 years ago, all I listened to was Metal and Rock.

Now I listen to at least 90% Classical.

So much "new" music to discover, and so little time!


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## fliege (Nov 7, 2017)

Open Book said:


> So you think the majority of younger audience members are musicians and you'd like to meet some who aren't, who are just listeners like yourself. That's how I felt at your age.


I don't mean so much that I personally would want to meet those people, although I would, but that if they're not around then the medium might be in trouble.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Judas Priest Fan said:


> I am 53, and up until about 2 years ago, all I listened to was Metal and Rock.
> 
> Now I listen to at least 90% Classical.
> 
> So much "new" music to discover, and so little time!


Seriously, congrats! Hope you get great stimulation and pleasure from this new world. Go to live classical concerts as well as listening to recordings.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

The one thing that makes concerts important is, if you attend, you actually hear what music sounds like and you hear the reality of musicmaking, things you almost never hear on studio recordings. It isn't just the sound of the orchestra or hall or soloist(s) or the fact that modern recordings make all music sound better than it really is, rather like HDTV.

I attended a performance of the St. Saens Violin Concerto No. 3, my favorite violin piece, once where a big name soloist forgot about four bars at the end of the finale, his instrument going silent. To my knowledge such a thing only ever happened once on a recording I owned -- where a world renowned pianist forgot a bunch of Beethoven's Hammerklavier sonata at the end.

You also hear the orchestra in reality, not the unreality of recordings. I attended the first performance of a British orchestra's USA tour where they played very familiar music, Vaughan Williams, Elgar and Britten. They were clearly not ready to go in the first one; the performance was slack, the ensemble not together, and the whole thing pretty forgettable. In the second they were great.

I once saw the great violinist Heifetz play extraordinarily well but he was so bored he was like a machine -- no life whatsoever from him, his expression, or his body -- but his playing was tremendous. He had surely played this piece hundreds of times in his life.

I think if all you know of classical music is recordings you don't really know the art form. It is such difficult music, even for the greatest musicians, that mistakes and off-days and boredom are regular participants in concertmaking. In other words, what you miss about classical music by only listening to recordings is its humanity, the human element.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

That's a great post larold. It's often said that there is a kind of communion between the orchestra/performers and the audience on any given night. Performers see and hear more of the audience than most suppose and can feed off the atmosphere, i.e. a buzzing full house. Perhaps an orchestra member here could comment.


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

Sid James said:


> While you make solid points in your first three paragraphs, I am dismayed that you find my comments to be ageist. I am merely making a choice as a consumer. I can't see how I could have avoided being called ageist other than not posting my response at all. I hope that the topic of age isn't taboo on this forum?


Yeah, I apologize for the direct accusation. I think everybody is ageist to a degree, because everyone fears old age. I was ageist when I was younger, maybe I still am only toward an older age group. I wished there were more young people at classical concerts then (so I could meet some of them and share my experiences with CM) and I still do (to reassure me that there isn't really such a big gap between the generations; and just to have a more diverse and larger audience so that classical music doesn't die out).

You know what attracts younger people to concerts? Hot young musicians, or nearly young and almost hot. I mean in looks as well as musical reputation. I went to an afternoon Boston Symphony concert a few years ago where a youngish eastern European pianist whose name escapes me played a Liszt concerto. There were many more young women in that audience that day than you normally see. I was reminded that Liszt himself attracted a lot of women to his concerts.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Open Book said:


> Yeah, I apologize for the direct accusation. I think everybody is ageist to a degree, because everyone fears old age. I was ageist when I was younger, maybe I still am only toward an older age group. I wished there were more young people at classical concerts then (so I could meet some of them and share my experiences with CM) and I still do (to reassure me that there isn't really such a big gap between the generations; and just to have a more diverse and larger audience so that classical music doesn't die out)...


Thank you for your acknowledgment, although I was just expressing what I felt about that final paragraph. I know that this is a sensitive topic, in a practical sense I have been made to be aware of it because I do have friends who are older than I and like classical music.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Ageism is the acceptable ism. I'm not sure why. I think it would sound strange these days (and would certainly be offensive) to say you wouldn't want to attend a concert where nearly all the audience were of the other gender or another race. There probably are people who have one of those preferences but they mostly know now to be discrete with those views. Personally, I would avoid being ageist in this way - why seek to offend people? Why not pick out the behaviours you dislike instead? Or, if it isn't about a generalisation concerning behaviour, what is it? Maybe there is a way of explaining it that is not offensive? I do think it is OK to be "specist" in the context. An audience with lots of cats or dogs or parrots probably would be difficult to tolerate and I think it would be OK to say so.


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