# Prokofiev's Flute Sonata/2nd Violin Sonata



## Whistler Fred

For all you flutists, violinists, or anyone who likes Prokofiev or sonatas in general. Prokofiev originally wrote a sonata for flute, but later re-arranged it for violin, where it became his 2nd Violin Sonata. As a flute player, I should be zealously guarding any work by a major composer specifically for his instrument. But I can't help but think the Prokofiev Sonata really sounds better on violin, in part because Prokofiev reworked the music to make it very idiomatic for the violin, whereas the flute part was always a bit awkward to all but a top notch musician. 

Any thoughts?


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## PetrB

Short answer: I _vehemently_ prefer the original Flute and Piano sonata to a later transcription _which I have te hear_ I think it is perfect as it is in its first conception / realization:

















Even re-written by Prokofiev, a master composer who was a master orchestrator, I don't have the least interest in the violin version, since we (I've not ever heard it) one violin sonata from this composer, and (I have heard these) two humdinger violin concerti.

I've heard flautists dis or dismiss the great and hugely enjoyable _Flute Concerto_ by Jacques Ibert, saying they did not 'care for it so much' because it was not very 'melodic.' (Link is 1/3)




Well, flautists, time to get over_ that_... reminds me of several tales of Beethoven telling a fiddler complaining of the difficulty of his part that he did not give a damn about the man's fiddle.

Prokofiev was a virtuoso pianist who when he composed wrote virtuosic parts for all the instruments of the orchestra, including a challenging part, it seems, for the flute in the _Flute Sonata_ -- and as usual, when he wrote difficult but not impossible parts for instruments (_Prokofiev pretty much expects from any and all players he composes for some serious chops _), they sound great. That they are not always the more usual configurations is neither here nor there. (Can you tell I'm about to say it is time for any player to drop judging a piece on how difficult they find _their_ part of that piece?


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## Whistler Fred

PetrB said:


> Short answer: I _vehemently_ prefer the original Flute and Piano sonata to a later unheard transcription, even a good transcription by the composer -- the fiddlers have a mountain of original music of their own already written for them!
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> I think it is perfect in its first conception / realization as it is:
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> Even re-written by Prokofiev, a master composer who was a master orchestrator, I don't have the least interest in the violin version, since we (I've not ever heard it) one violin sonata from this composer, and (I have heard these) two humdinger violin concerti.
> 
> I've heard flautists dis or dismiss the great and hugely enjoyable _Flute Concerto_ by Jacques Ibert, saying they did not 'care for it so much' because it was not very 'melodic.' (Link is 1/3)
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> Well, flautists, time to get over_ that_... reminds me of several tales of Beethoven telling a fiddler complaining of the difficulty of his part that he did not give a damn about the man's fiddle.
> 
> Prokofiev was a virtuoso pianist who, when he composed, wrote virtuosic parts for all the instruments of the orchestra, including a challenging part, it seems, for the flute in his _Flute Sonata_ -- and as usual, when he wrote difficult but not impossible parts for instruments -- _Prokofiev pretty much expects that any and all players he composes for have some serious chops -- _ they sound great. That they are not always the more usual configurations is neither here nor there. (Can you tell I'm about to say it is time for any player to drop judging a piece on how difficult they find _their_ part of that piece?


Passionate response!

If I prefer the violin version, it's not without great reluctance. Nor am I inclined to think it's always better on the violin. I've heard Copland Duo for Flute and Piano transcribed for violin and thought it was completely wrongheaded! And just to be clear, I don't dislike the Prokofiev on flute and would be happy to hear either version.

And for the record, I am not among those who dismiss the Ibert Concerto. I, in fact, love it, and I don't get those who say it's not melodic. Of course, I think Feldman's "Why Patterns?" is melodic, so it may just be a matter of how "melodic" is defined.

I have played the Prokofiev Flute Sonata, so I certainly respect and indeed like the music. But I freely admit that I lack the chops to pull it off, at least at the present time (same with the Ibert). But, really, my own ability to play something doesn't influence whether I will like a piece or not.

And finally, I will have to track down the Pahud recording that you've linked. Amazing playing!


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## hpowders

Whistler Fred said:


> For all you flutists, violinists, or anyone who likes Prokofiev or sonatas in general. Prokofiev originally wrote a sonata for flute, but later re-arranged it for violin, where it became his 2nd Violin Sonata. As a flute player, I should be zealously guarding any work by a major composer specifically for his instrument. But I can't help but think the Prokofiev Sonata really sounds better on violin, in part because Prokofiev reworked the music to make it very idiomatic for the violin, whereas the flute part was always a bit awkward to all but a top notch musician.
> 
> Any thoughts?


I agree. The sonata sounds better on violin. On flute, the sonata can sound "shrill", especially in the final movement.


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## EdwardBast

I heard the sonata for the first time performed on flute. I thought, and still think, it is an excellent work in its original form. The scherzo, especially seems more idiomatic for flute than for violin. And the chromatic "B" theme of the slow movement is perfect for flute — I'd say more idiomatic, especially in its octave leaps, except that string instruments can do practically anything. In any case, I can't help feeling like the violin version sounds like an arrangement.


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## Hassid

But some contrary transcriptions, for original violin works to the flute, are really absurd and sound totally fake. As that of the Paganini's 24.


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## mikey

After having played it with both, have to say I prefer it on the violin. I'm not quite sure whether that's because I prefer strings in general, or I've been over saturated with flutes (which I have), or I haven't played it with an amazing flautist yet. But it's down to personal opinion and at the very least, at least the transcription is by the composer himself! (Franck *cough*)


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## Whistler Fred

I've found that works written for the violin seldom translate well for the flute, the Frank Sonata being among them. I've heard of an attempt to perform Beethoven's Violin Concerto transcribed for solo flute and concert band. Nothing good could have come of that!

The reverse is just as true; a work written specifically for flute doesn't translate well to the violin. The Prokofiev may arguably be the sole exception. Could you image Debussy's "Syrinx" as a violin solo?


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## Ukko

Khachaturian's 'universal' concerto works quite well that way


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## mikey




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## SimplyRedhead

I am not a fan of rearranged works but Prokofiev's 2nd Violin Sonata is one of the very few exceptions. I prefer version for violin much more than the original one (maybe because I'm a violinist and first I was exposed to the violin version (how predictable) which is perceived by me as a first). Prokofiev's works sound incredibly sparkly and strikingly on violin and they extract all the colors of the instrument.
Really like the Kogan's version. Does anybody know it?


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## EdwardBast

SimplyRedhead said:


> I am not a fan of rearranged works but Prokofiev's 2nd Violin Sonata is one of the very few exceptions. I prefer version for violin much more than the original one (maybe because I'm a violinist and first I was exposed to the violin version (how predictable) which is perceived by me as a first). Prokofiev's works sound incredibly sparkly and strikingly on violin and they extract all the colors of the instrument.
> Really like the Kogan's version. Does anybody know it?


The violin arrangement works well enough, of course, but it still sounds like an arrangement. I enjoy hearing it on violin. The only thing that bothers me is that it seems to be more popular than the first sonata, which is far, far superior as a violin sonata.


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## dlmente

Whistler Fred said:


> For all you flutists, violinists, or anyone who likes Prokofiev or sonatas in general. Prokofiev originally wrote a sonata for flute, but later re-arranged it for violin, where it became his 2nd Violin Sonata. As a flute player, I should be zealously guarding any work by a major composer specifically for his instrument. But I can't help but think the Prokofiev Sonata really sounds better on violin, in part because Prokofiev reworked the music to make it very idiomatic for the violin, whereas the flute part was always a bit awkward to all but a top notch musician.
> 
> Any thoughts?


I saw the PSO Flutist Lorne Magee play the Flute Sonata with the Amazing David Allen Wehr on Piano/
He also discussed the history of the piece (flute first, then Violin) wonderful performance


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## dlmente

dlmente said:


> I saw the PSO Flutist Lorne Magee play the Flute Sonata with the Amazing David Allen Wehr on Piano/
> He also discussed the history of the piece (flute first, then Violin) wonderful performance


Lorne is a world class player / saw her Premiere the Saariaho Flute Concero which was fiendishly difficult and very wonderful


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## Enthalpy

I like Proko anyway, and his flute sonata especially.

To my opinion, it is *extremely flutesque*. It uses perfectly the capabilities, the character of the instrument. Better musicians let sound pieces better, yes, but that's not specific to this sonata. Hear it there:
Proko's sonata played by Emmanuel Pahud

I don't feel it fits the violin any better, quite the opposite. But possibly, this sonata is closer to the limits of the flautists than of the violinists. About any piece for wind instrument is easier on a violin.


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## Enthalpy

Flutesque in that it exposes the character of the instrument.

But some sequences are badly difficult on the flute, I agree. Like some quick articulations forte in the low register. I couldn't play that.


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## fluteman

Whistler Fred said:


> For all you flutists, violinists, or anyone who likes Prokofiev or sonatas in general. Prokofiev originally wrote a sonata for flute, but later re-arranged it for violin, where it became his 2nd Violin Sonata. As a flute player, I should be zealously guarding any work by a major composer specifically for his instrument. But I can't help but think the Prokofiev Sonata really sounds better on violin, in part because Prokofiev reworked the music to make it very idiomatic for the violin, whereas the flute part was always a bit awkward to all but a top notch musician.
> 
> Any thoughts?


Perhaps not surprisingly, I disagree. As a student, I cut my teeth on the Rampal edition of Prokofiev's D major flute sonata. As a flute player, you probably know that Rampal generally didn't hesitate to do a significant amount of editing, generally putting in revisions to conform with how he himself performed the work. As a result, his editions are often disfavored by those who put a premium on being as faithful as possible to the composer's intentions.
Prokofiev wrote some great flute solos, as in Peter and the Wolf and the "Classical" symphony (no. 1). But this sonata has by far his greatest flute music. Rampal addresses some of the 'awkwardness' you mention directly by changing a number of passages. His edits work well, in my opinion, and I use most of them, as I was taught to do. But overall, the asymmetries and slightly off-kilter feel of the whole piece are entirely intended by the composer, in my opinion. A bit of that is lost in the violin version, performed brilliantly, however, by David Oistrakh, for whom it was written.


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