# Natalie Dessay - definitive role



## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

So with Natalie Dessay's retirement (she's calling it a hiatus, but I'll be shocked if she returns to anything more than concerts), I was thinking about making a retrospective megathread to cover her career. I was curious as to what people would consider her definitive role.

In my mind, a singer's definitive role generally would encompass the following points:
1) a role the singer is well associated with, having performed it in several productions
2) a role that brings out the best in the singer, and where the singer brings out the best in the role
3) ideally there is a recording available, but that's not mandatory
4) in a general sense, this is the one role you'd show to someone who was unfamiliar with the singer so they could see what they were all about

Due to #1, we can rule out things like Morgana in Alcina, Eurydice in Orphee aux Enfers, and Lakme, despite excellent performances in those.

I think for Ms. Dessay, we are looking at the following choices:
1) Lucia
2) Manon
3) Amina
4) Zerbinetta
5) Marie (marginal -- she was in one production of it afaik, but across multiple venues and many total performances. Still, she never had to reinterpret the role in varying productions)
6) Violetta
7) Olympia
8) Konigin der Nacht
I almost feel like the last two should be eliminated just because the roles are so small. In either case, the total stage time is under 20 minutes out of a ~2h30 opera.

Lucia and Manon are very close for me. If absolutely pressed, I might give the nod to Manon as being the definitive Natalie Dessay role. Follwing Lucia, Olympia and Zerbinetta would follow in spots 3 and 4. 

What say you, TC? What do you consider to be Natalie Dessay's definitive, defining role?


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Dessay strongest in french language opera, her most iconic roles are in *Manon and Tales of Hoffman* for me. There are many great youtubes of various Dessay "olympia" in Tales of Hoffman but they are not to be found in DVD for sale

For Donizetti Lucia Lammermoor she is probably most famous for her french "Lucie" version



A couple great DVDs


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

Agreed. Tales of Hoffman


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

For me there are two.

I think her fullest incarnation of a role is Manon. She is perfect as the coquette, rather heartless but very charming and moving at the end. 

I do love her Marie in the Pelly production of La Fille, as much for the acting the singing. The scenes where she is peeling potatoes and muttering to herself, and where she is ironing in time to the singing, are just gorgeous.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Zerbinetta...................................


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

I love her Marie, of course, how can you not, but for me it's either Lucia or Violetta, and I would give it to Violetta. Never having seen her Olympia I suppose that's not fair, but eh, who cares. I thought her DVD of Traviata was definitive.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

How about that lady getting seducted by "lovely, charming fly"


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

I mentioned that in my post; given that she's only appeared in one production (ok, one stage production and then the same performers (with one notable change, Patricia Petibon as Cupidon) + conductor) I don't think the role can qualify as definitive. But that's just my opinion; she is, for me, the definitive Offenbach Eurydice, the one against all others must be measured.

But one could also say that about the role of "une jeune fille" in La Legende de Joseph en Egypt  So I don't think that's sufficient to qualify a role as being the definitive one of her career.



guythegreg said:


> I love her Marie, of course, how can you not, but for me it's either Lucia or Violetta, and I would give it to Violetta. Never having seen her Olympia I suppose that's not fair, but eh, who cares. I thought her DVD of Traviata was definitive.


Interesting. I'm a tremendous Natalie Dessay fan -- she's by far my favorite singer. But I thought her Traviata was the weakest of all the roles I listed for her. Very cool that people can have all sorts of different views and reactions to art 

And you should definitely check out her Olympia. Here's my personal favorite version (Warning before you click -- it is not safe to view at work due to simulated sex and a naked mannequin body  )





(sure she gets ahead of the beat quite often during Les Oiseaux, one time quite badly, but she brings it to such life. For a comparison, watch Desiree Rancatore in the same production to see how much more a performer can bring than just going through the choreography. Ms. Rancatore's version is so flat and boring)


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

DarkAngel said:


> Dessay strongest in french language opera, her most iconic roles are in *Manon and Tales of Hoffman* for me. There are many great youtubes of various Dessay "olympia" in Tales of Hoffman but they are not to be found in DVD for sale
> 
> For Donizetti Lucia Lammermoor she is probably most famous for her french "Lucie" version


I can't agree with that. She was only in 1 or 2 Lucie's to my knowledge, in France, where she has opened a Met season and had her face plastered all over town with Lucia and has performed it many more times than she has Lucie.
Plus Lucia is so much better -- the mad scene sounds so much better a half step down the way it's performed in Lucia vs. Lucie, and no Regnava nel Silenzio is sad-making. A google search of Dessay Lucia returns a quarter million hits, Dessay Lucie a fifth of that. Certainly in the public mind, her Lucia carries more weight.

e: And there is one Dessay-as-Olympia Hoffmann for sale, the one set in a mental asylum


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

I have seen *many great La Sonnambula performances of Dessay (amina) on youtube* from 1990s but again no DVDs of these for sale, instead we are left with an OK modern production with her voice past its prime.......










I also really love her retrospective collection on DVD with artist commentary


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

rgz said:


> I can't agree with that. She was only in 1 or 2 Lucie's to my knowledge, in France, where she has opened a Met season and had her face plastered all over town with Lucia and has performed it many more times than she has Lucie.
> Plus Lucia is so much better -- the mad scene sounds so much better a half step down the way it's performed in Lucia vs. Lucie, and no Regnava nel Silenzio is sad-making. A google search of Dessay Lucia returns a quarter million hits, Dessay Lucie a fifth of that. Certainly in the public mind, her Lucia carries more weight.
> 
> e: And there is one Dessay-as-Olympia Hoffmann for sale, the one set in a mental asylum


I agree that Italian "lucia" is to be preferred over french "lucie" , but in Lucia Dessay is going to be compared with greatest singers of all time, for french Lucie she reigns supreme


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## Yashin (Jul 22, 2011)

Oh for sure Ambroise Hamlet Mad scene...see the clip posted below:


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

I saw her Lucie and Manon (opposite Jonas Kaufmann no less) here in Chicago, Cleopatra at the Met, and her Anina, Marie, and Violetta in Met HD.

For me it's got to be between Lucie and Manon. The way she inhabited both roles was mesmerizing, but well... her Lucie mad scene simply stopped time in its tracks. It was a key moment in my conversion from opera fan into opera fanatic.

I liked the bits of her Traviata in development for Aix-in-Province featured in the film "Becoming Traviata", but I was too put off by the Luc Pelly 'Red Dress' production at the Met to give her a fair shake.


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## mchriste (Aug 16, 2013)

I'd say Marie or Eurydice, because what truly defines Dessay for me are her outstanding comedic abilities.
Yes, I love her as Lucia as well but when I think of Dessay, I first of all think of madcap, energetic, rambunctious fun on stage!

... but that's not an excuse to delay HD releases of both her Tales of Hoffmann and her LuciA di Lammermoor any further... :scold:


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

At just age 48, "retire?" I know she had nodes on her vocal chords, and those surgically removed. I'm told "no matter what they say" the vocal chords, and the singing are never ever the same thereafter... is that a contributing factor to this 'retirement?'


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

PetrB said:


> At just age 48, "retire?" I know she had nodes on her vocal chords, and those surgically removed. I'm told "no matter what they say" the vocal chords, and the singing are never ever the same thereafter... is that a contributing factor to this 'retirement?'


Apparently her decreased enthusiasm and lack of belief in being able to express and realize herself on operatic stage is more of a factor.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Judging from the Met Giulio Cesare, she is not sounding that good these days, at least on recorded media, and she probably knows it


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

PetrB said:


> At just age 48, "retire?" I know she had nodes on her vocal chords, and those surgically removed. I'm told "no matter what they say" the vocal chords, and the singing are never ever the same thereafter... is that a contributing factor to this 'retirement?'


Depends which 'they' you listen too. It's not talked about because of the career-damaging stigma you allude to, but such procedures are more common that you think and may be performed before the onset of a full vocal crisis. 'Never ever the same' can be for the better. Sandra Radvanovsky only admitted in 2009 that she had the procedure in 2002 to remove a node she had had since childhood, and her voice has only improved since then.

From what I read of Dessay's retirement, she realizes at a certain age she is not longer able to credibly represent the characters that her voice is best suited for. She also said her first love is acting and she will continue to pursue that; the singing part was just a means of being able to perform on stage.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Cavaradossi said:


> Sandra Radvanovsky only admitted in 2009 that she had the procedure in 2002 to remove a node she had had since childhood, and her voice has only improved since then.


genuine question: what are nodes and why would they develop so early? if SR had one removed back then it definitely did not affect her voice for the worse, I agree.


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

deggial said:


> genuine question: what are nodes and why would they develop so early? if SR had one removed back then it definitely did not affect her voice for the worse, I agree.


In her own words:



> "When I was a newborn, I had pneumonia," she said. Doctors put a tube into her throat while treating the pneumonia, and the soprano's vocal doctors think they may have nicked a vocal cord. "I learned to sing all of my life with a node on one of my vocal cords."
> 
> She first discovered the problem in college.
> 
> ...


http://chicagoclassicalreview.com/2009/10/injured-by-offstage-mugger-and-onstage-tenor-sondra-radvanovsky-perseveres-to-sing-in-lyric-opera-ernani/


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Cavaradossi wrote:

*"Never, ever the same can be for the better."*

Thanks for bringing that up. There are people who seem to think that _any_ sort of change in a singer's voice constitutes "decline," whereas the reality is that _no_ singer's voice stays _exactly the same_ throughout his or her whole career. Changes are inevitable, and it's usually the case that loss in one area will be offset by gain in another. For example, during the past couple of weeks I've been listening to my DG recording of _Eugene Onegin_, on which Mirella Freni, age 52 at the time, sings Tatiana. The way I hear it, Freni's middle register had lost much of its former steadiness; on the other hand, her voice had retained the combination of warmth and crystalline purity for which it was always remarkable, and her high notes were secure. The voice's purity allows it to convey Tatiana's youth and innocence, while Freni's mature artistry informs her portrayal in the last act of the opera. So (as with so many other things in opera) there's a trade-off; things balance out in the end, the final result being a satisfying audio portrayal of Tatiana.

Then there's Joan Sutherland. I've heard people say they prefer, for instance, her early-1960's recording of _I Puritani_ to her 1973 remake, because in the 1960's her voice was fresher; in 1973 she had a darker sound and a slower vibrato that some call a "beat." That may be true, but -- though I love the young Sutherland's fresh and silvery sound -- there are ways in which I like her 1970's singing better. Judging by the later _Puritani_, not only had her voice become like warm, molten gold, but her diction was sharper and she sang with greater rhythmic vitality. Was her voice "in decline"? I think it's more correct to say simply that her voice had changed.

As for Natalie Dessay, I haven't heard/seen enough of her to be able to choose a definitive role, but I have heard portions of her Olympia (_Les Contes d'Hoffmann_) and Ophelie (_Hamlet_) and think she must have been ideal in those parts.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

DarkAngel said:


> I agree that Italian "lucia" is to be preferred over french "lucie" , but in Lucia Dessay is going to be compared with greatest singers of all time, for french Lucie she reigns supreme


Ah, I see what you're saying, but that's kind of the converse of what I'm asking (though an interesting question in its own right); i.e., rather than "What is her definitive role", your question is "What roles is Natalie Dessay the definitive interpreter of".

As for that ... well, let's limit it to her generation. With that, and bearing in mind that I'm the hugest fan ever of Ms. Dessay, I'd say she is the definitive interpreter of the last 25 years for:
- Lucia
- Lucie
- Zerbinetta
- Manon
- Lakme
- Eurydice from Orphee aux Enfers
- Marie
- Olympia
- maybe Amina

Queen of the Night I'd give to Diana Damrau. Violetta could go to a few performers -- Netrebko or Gheorghiu, maybe.

I also adore her Constanze and it would be my definitive interpretation for her generation, but I wouldn't expect others to agree given that she only performed it in one production that's not readily available and is pushing her voice to its limit throughout. Amazing Martern aller Arten though.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Not enthusiastic about this, I must say:


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

This one. Obviously. Right, guys? Right?
If you recently saw her in this role at the Met, you're feeling a little ripped-off right now.

Ah, Paris.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

^ I've often enjoyed her acting (and other qualities), but the only time I enjoyed her singing was in La Sonnambula, so that's it for me.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

deggial said:


> ^ I've often enjoyed her acting (and other qualities), but the only time I enjoyed her singing was in La Sonnambula, so that's it for me.


Really, the only time? I can't imagine someone not being blown away by this:





The first 1:30 is an exhibition of pure technique. Her breath control an ability to so effortlessly jump from _f_ to _pp_ is amazing.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

yes, she is quite a technician but her voice in itself doesn't do much for me. I was stunned I enjoyed La Sonnambula as much as I did.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

OK, I can understand that. Her voice seems to be a love it or hate it thing. From a pure auditory standpoint, it's not great -- nasal and vinegary. But for some people, it just seems to work for them. Maria Callas's voice wasn't anything like as purely lovely as Tebaldi's -- strange, hollow but strident sound that had nothing like Tebaldi's lushness. But Callas, her voice just grabs me at the base of the spine and sits me upright, all attention. Dessay has a similar effect on me.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

If nothing else, the dance with the dolls made me laugh.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

I don't hear Dessay's voice as "vinegary" myself or even as particularly nasal, though l think it is a typical "French" voice in a way I can't quite describe. I think it has something to do with the fact that her sound isn't as _round_ as that of some other sopranos I can think of. I remember someone calling Dessay a modern-day Lily Pons, and come to think of it that is who she reminds me of. What amazes me is how such a small voice can be so well projected.


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## msegers (Oct 17, 2008)

She has recently performed (spoken, not sung) Molly Bloom's soliloquy from Joyce's _Ulysses_:
http://www.leparisien.fr/espace-premium/yvelines-78/natalie-dessay-lit-james-joyce-23-01-2014-3517563.php. Maybe this is the direction she will follow?


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## BaronScarpia (Apr 2, 2014)

Lucia, without a doubt. She was spectacular, both vocally and dramatically.


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