# Beethoven - Op. 61 - Violin Concerto in D major



## HansZimmer (11 mo ago)

How do you rate this piece?

The recording below:
Isaac Stern (1920-2001), Violin
Leonard Bernstein (1918-1990), Conductor
The New York Philharmonic Orchestra
Recorded 20th Abril of 1959, in St. George Hotel, Brooklyn, New York City, United States of America.

I read that that the first movement is often played as "Andante" and that this recording plays it in the way intended by Beethoven ("Allegro ma non troppo").


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

I also like a faster paced interpretation, but then by Heifetz, which isn’t surprising considering my avatar. The work itself I really like, it is one of my favourite violin concertos. And there’s one melody in the third movement which is just gorgeous and it gets me everytime


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

This is great, great, great music. A masterpiece start to finish. My top choice has been Henryk Szeryng with Haitink and the Concertgebouw on Philips. One of the glories of recording history. Hot on the heels is another favorite with Heifetz and Munch in Boston. There's one I do not like: Harnoncourt with Kremer. That stupid diminuendo on the solo timpani note is silly and out of line. It ruins Beethoven's idea. I also like the clarinet transcription quite a bit.


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## Bigbang (Jun 2, 2019)

EvaBaron said:


> I also like a faster paced interpretation, but then by Heifetz, which isn’t surprising considering my avatar. The work itself I really like, it is one of my favourite violin concertos. And there’s one melody in the third movement which is just gorgeous and it gets me everytime


If you can highlight the time with the melody using the Heifetz recording. I would like to pull it out and listen for it.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Probably the g minor? episode with bassoon in the rondo. All the bassoonists here probably love it and can pinpoint the passage.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

In June of 2015 I posted a comment concerning this Concerto after attending a Pittsburgh Symphony concert featuring Christian Tetzlaff, with Manfred Honeck conducting.

Ludwig van Beethoven's Violin Concerto in D major, Op. 61 | Page 2 | Classical Music Forum (talkclassical.com) 

I'll continue to recommend one of the Tetzlaff recordings, though this Concerto has many many wonderfully recorded interpretations available for the hearing.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Kreisler jr said:


> Probably the g minor? episode with bassoon in the rondo. All the bassoonists here probably love it and can pinpoint the passage.


Wonderful solo to play....the whole piece has great bassoon parts.
Big solo in mvt II Lots in First mvt, too...


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

That's the recording I have.


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

I voted [good] very good. While I adore Beethoven's symphonies, piano sonatas and most of his string quartets, I have never warmed up to his violin concerto too much. I do respect the workmanship behind it but would easily rank 10 other concertos by lesser composers ahead of it. Most, if not all, are from the romantic era.

Keep in mind that my only criterion for this is simply liking or not liking a composition. I have never formally studied music theory and how robust or otherwise the musicology behind a work has never been a criterion for me, nor can it be with my lack of understanding of theory.

P.S. Re-listening now to Zino Francescatti play the Beethoven Concerto with the Columbia SO and Bruno Walter, I went back and changed my vote to very good. I still would rank several romantic era violin concertos ahead of Beethoven's, but it certainly deserves a higher rating than merely "good"!


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## HansZimmer (11 mo ago)

haziz said:


> Keep in mind that my only criterion for this is simply liking or not liking a composition. I have never formally studied music theory and how robust or otherwise the musicology behind a work has never been a criterion for me, nor can it be with my lack of understanding of theory.


The emotional aspect in music should be prominent, but there is also a large space for rationality. You can for example say that a piece doesn't move you and still recognize that it contains "elevated musical technique".
If you don't like a piece of Beethoven, the hypothesis that your musical preferences are limited is more likely in respect to the hypothesis that the compositional skills of Beethoven are limited.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Kreisler, Huberman, Busch, and Perlman for me


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

I voted excellent , 
Beethoven: Violin Concerto - Itzhak Perlman /Christian Ferras/ Kyung Wha Chung and James Ehnes are highly recommended imho.


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

Bigbang said:


> If you can highlight the time with the melody using the Heifetz recording. I would like to pull it out and listen for it.






32:14 in this video


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## Otis B. Driftwood (4 mo ago)

My favorite recording is by Patricia Kopatchinskaja;








Beethoven - Violin Concerto, Romances & Fragment Concerto


Beethoven - Violin Concerto, Romances & Fragment Concerto. Naive: V5174. Buy download online. Patricia Kopatchinskaja (violin) Orchestre des Champs-Elysées, Philippe Herreweghe



www.prestomusic.com


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I voted "very good", it's not a great personal favorite but it has interesting and brilliant elements. The very beginning with only timpani and woodwind must have been rather disconcerting to contemporaries. Then the recurring awkward dissonance (d# in D major), deviation from 8 bar (or use of overlapping) phrases, but it still can sound a bit "square",
The first two movements are usually played too slow, the larghetto is even played too slow by those who have a reasonable tempo for the first (like Heifetz, Tetzlaff, Zehetmair) and others. My favorite recording overall is probably Zehetmair/Brüggen, although I think Brüggen slightly overdoes the "military" passages in the first movement. This is better than remaining in slow lyrical mode all the time but seems also an exaggeration to get more contrast than is actually there.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Grumiaux's first recording accompanied by Alceo Galliera is my go-to performance. I've never heard another account which draws me in as completely as this one always does.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I think this is the first time in this series of polls that I voted "excellent". I reserve that for the works that score 6/6 on the Artrockometer (just over 100 pieces).


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

In the presence of a true masterpiece, what do our puny votes matter?
Anyway, my choice performance is Francescatti/Walter.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

RobertJTh said:


> In the presence of a true masterpiece, what do our puny votes matter?
> Anyway, my choice performance is Francescatti/Walter.


That's a really good one!!


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

I can still quote from a review of Walter/Francescatti: "A miraculous gift to us all."


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

probably the greatest violin concerto ever, but not my personal favourite; mendelssohn and tchaikovsky are respectively more beautiful and exciting; regarding the performances there is no doubt in my mind that heifetz was the greatest violinist up to now; but i prefer to listen to contemporary versions from j.janssen, repin, i.faust (belohlavek version), kopa, ehnes and kavakos; the reasons are obvious: better sound, superlative understanding of the score, extraordinary orchestras


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## Montarsolo (5 mo ago)

I've been a Beethoven fan since puberty. But I've never been a big fan of his violin concerto. It always sounds to me like it was originally written for another instrument. It doesn't fit the violin very well imo (in the first part). All those scales remind me of my violin lessons. If anyone thinks violin is a whimper, I wouldn't play the Beethoven violin concerto to prove otherwise. In the Mozart, Mendelssohn concertos, Saint Saens rondo capriccioso (!) the violin sings much more.

While I think Beethovens violin sonatas are the best of its kind - together with Mozart. The violin at its best.


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

For me the greatest violin concerto of all. I have 40 recordings of it. Either that slow movement or from the Emperor will be played at my funeral, which at present will take 16 hours, 15.5 of them music.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Montarsolo said:


> I've been a Beethoven fan since puberty. But I've never been a big fan of his violin concerto. It always sounds to me like it was originally written for another instrument. It doesn't fit the violin very well imo (in the first part). All those scales remind me of my violin lessons. If anyone thinks violin is a whimper, I wouldn't play the Beethoven violin concerto to prove otherwise. In the Mozart, Mendelssohn concertos, Saint Saens rondo capriccioso (!) the violin sings much more.
> 
> While I think Beethovens violin sonatas are the best of its kind - together with Mozart. The violin at its best.


As Beethoven had written 9 violin sonatas, about as many string quartets, two romances, 5 string trios and some more music with strings before the violin concerto (and unlike e.g. Brahms he had played violin and/or viola at provincial tutti level in his youth) I don't think he didn't know enough about technique and possibilities of the instrument. I believe he wanted to make a really "symphonic" concerto, therefore restricting the role of the violin in the first movement.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Animal the Drummer said:


> Grumiaux's first recording accompanied by Alceo Galliera is my go-to performance. I've never heard another account which draws me in as completely as this one always does.


I think that there are at least three commercial recordings with Grumiaux - with van Beinum (my favorite), Galliera, and Davis.

Kogan/Silvestri is another of my favorites. It always surprises me how rarely Kogan is mentioned in threads like this one.


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## janwillemvanaalst (5 mo ago)

Reminds me of Joseph Joachim's famous quote about German violin concertos:
_"The Germans have four violin concertos. The greatest, most uncompromising is Beethoven's. The one by Brahms vies with it in seriousness. The richest, the most seductive, was written by Max Bruch. But the most inward, the heart's jewel, is Mendelssohn's." _(Wikipedia)

Personally, I enjoy all four equally. As for Beethoven's violin concerto, my "benchmark recording" remains that of Henryk Szerying with Bernard Haitink, recorded in the seventies:


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

wkasimer said:


> Kogan/Silvestri is another of my favorites. It always surprises me how rarely Kogan is mentioned in threads like this one.


Kogan's recordings are badly distributed and not well known, unless one is actively seeking them out. Or old enough to remember Ariola Eurodisc LPs of Melodiya recordings (I am barely old enough but I didn't have any Kogan on LP). For instance, the concertos with Silvestri are not included in the (otherwise complete?) Silvestri box on EMI...


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Kreisler jr said:


> Kogan's recordings are badly distributed and not well known, unless one is actively seeking them out. Or old enough to remember Ariola Eurodisc LPs of Melodiya recordings (I am barely old enough but I didn't have any Kogan on LP). For instance, the concertos with Silvestri are not included in the (otherwise complete?) Silvestri box on EMI...


I was fortunate to find a copy of this set; it didn't stay in print very long, though:










It's also available - and much cheaper - on this set:


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Kreisler, Huberman, Busch, and Perlman for me


I'm surprised you didn't mention Menuhin - he recorded it three times with Furwängler.


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## dko22 (Jun 22, 2021)

the first movement is insufferably long and far from consistently inspired -- too much passagework. The rest is better but I tend not to like violin concertos in general so I guess I'm more likely than others to moan...


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Wolfgang Schneiderhan, Arthur Grumiaux, David Oistrakh, Igor Oistrakh and Christian Tetzlaff for me.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Powerful interpretation from the Busch’s


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## Wilhelm Theophilus (Aug 8, 2020)

To date my favorite Beethoven piece. Especially the very beautiful first movement.


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## Scherzi Cat (8 mo ago)

Excellent! I like the performance by Isabella Faust with Claudio Abbado.


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

This is one of the greatest masterpieces in the repertoire. I was brought up on Heifetz’s recording which does respect Beethoven’s marking of Allegro ma non troppo for the first movement. It is not Andante as many play it. For more recent performers Patricia Kopatchinskaja is terrific. Just as Lug intended I think


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

marlow said:


> This is one of the greatest masterpieces in the repertoire. I was brought up on Heifetz’s recording which does respect Beethoven’s marking of Allegro ma non troppo for the first movement. It is not Andante as many play it. For more recent performers Patricia Kopatchinskaja is terrific. Just as Lug intended I think


I would say Heifetz plays it at Molto Allegro. I don’t think I’ve heard a version that seriously sounds like an Andante in the first movement. The point is the character you are going for. The “ma non troppo” is there for a reason.


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I would say Heifetz plays it at Molto Allegro. I don’t think I’ve heard a version that seriously sounds like an Andante in the first movement. The point is the character you are going for. The “ma non troppo” is there for a reason.


allegro ma non troppo means ‘quick but not too quick’ which is how Heifetz plays it. Motto Allegro is ‘very fast indeed’ which it is not


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

An excellent concerto. I rate it as an 8.5/10 in terms of how much I like it. My favorite movement is the first.

By the way, _allegro ma non troppo_ is still in the speed range of _allegro_, and therefore should be played fast and lively, more so than _allegretto_ or _andante_.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I think one clue to the tempo of the first movement is not mainly "ma non troppo" but that the main theme is felt in half notes and that 16th appear only as figurations and there are no (or very few) faster figurations (such as 16th triplets) in the violin. This is a clear difference to e.g. the first movement of the 4th piano concerto that has lots of faster/smaller figurations and the main theme in 8th notes. Some people, IIRC Kolisch in his tempo suggestions for Beethoven, claim that the violinc concerto should be basically alla breve, i.e. in half notes. 
There are clues that movements going in half notes are not necessarily denoted as alla breve ("cut time" 2/2), e.g. the 1st movement of first symphony has alla breve marking, the second has 4/4 but the second as almost as fast a MM marking as the 1st (100 vs. 112, IIRC) and the main theme of 2,i is more clearly going in halfs or even whole bars than in the 1st. According to Kolisch a comparable movement with explicit alla breve to the violin concerto is the first of the cello sonata op.69.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

dko22 said:


> the first movement is insufferably long and far from consistently inspired -- too much passagework..


I don’t think I’ve ever heard a violin concerto (or part of it) be criticized for ‘too much passagework’.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

DaveM said:


> I don’t think I’ve ever heard a violin concerto (or part of it) be criticized for ‘too much passagework’.


Too many notes?


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Too many notes?


Yes, and too much fingering.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

No question Beethoven's concerto is among the greatest of its type but it has never appealed to me very much. I haven't owned a recording of it since Kennedy's concert version from 1992 with the oddball cadenza. I once liked Joshua Bell's period-_like_ version with Norrington and a few others but none have had staying power. 

I don't quibble over its quality or reputation however. It's just not my cup of tea. Same with Beethoven's Choral symphony. I'd much rather hear the Brahms, St. Saens Third or William Schuman's concerto ... or even Robert Schumann's!


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

premont said:


> Wolfgang Schneiderhan, Arthur Grumiaux, David Oistrakh, Igor Oistrakh and Christian Tetzlaff for me.


Great violinists all, but for me Schneiderhan makes the cardinal error of playing a transcription of the cadenza that Beethoven wrote for the (wince) piano version. Of course, Beethoven wrote no cadenzas for the original violin version. So for me, I'd take his name off that list and add Nathan Milstein.


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