# The Baton



## Radames (Feb 27, 2013)

Is it needed? What should it be made out of? Should a conductor have a spare baton? If it's so important shouldn't he have a spare? A few weeks ago I was in Boston and Slobodeniouk's baton broke in the first movement of the Dvorak 7th Symphony. He was left holding a little stub which he quickly got rid of. He finished the piece without it. Did he actually need it in the first place? Perhaps wood isn't the best material because it can break so easily. I saw Jean-François Rivest break a baton accidentally several years ago at a concert. He also finished the piece without it.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

my view:


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## Radames (Feb 27, 2013)

Yeah, but that's Bugs. No one can beat Bugs.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

A baton is not necessary...some great conductors have used their hands without much use of baton....

many conductors use both...two of the best I played for - Walter Hendl, Boris Goldovsky - at times just stopped conducting...Hendl used a baton, but sometimes he'd tuck it aside, and conduct with his hands; Goldovsky didn't usually use a baton. their eyes were always moving, tho, making contact....

the baton enables the conductor to indicate a very precise, exact beat...they can also indicate the subdivisions and the make clear the tempo fluctuations...sometimes, tho, for a work that is very lyrical, legato, with long singing lines, a precise exact beat is not preferable....with just hands, it's may be easier to indicate a flowing, smoother style.
these situations can be done with or without the baton, given a good conductor.

ime - I prefer the baton...in the right hands, a clear beat is easily discerned - "follow the stick" is the watchword for orchestra musicians, and esp for those involved with opera, music theater, anything with voices....

a recent conductor I played for never used a baton - he claimed he could "shape the phrasing" more expressively with just his hands...but to me, that was a load of crap. there was a mushy, almost smeared result, a lack of precision that all too often occurred ["where's the downbeat ??"]  working with vocal soloists was a real challenge...the beat within the measure, and the subdivision was _obscure_, to say the least...a more precise beat [try a baton!!] would have worked better, imo...


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

They can be dangerous.

https://www.nytimes.com/1975/03/25/archives/conductor-stabs-himself-as-baton-breaks-in-mexico.html

Solti also, famously. I can't find a single article about that that doesn't go off on many other tangents.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Boult had a long one.

Finbar Saunders (Viz)


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

A baton is like a Harry Potter wand: it must be matched to the user. I prefer a 14" made of very light wood, painted white, with a good cork on the end. It must be perfectly balanced. For orchestral work a baton is preferred but only if the conductor knows how to use one correctly. There are so many "conductors" who wield a baton but never learned to use it. Used properly, you can conserve your energy, it makes the beat, rubato, and tempo changes perfectly clear. Used badly - the norm these days - it does nothing but get in the way. I just played a Christmas concert with a woman who, despite her claims to having studied with Leonard Slatkin, really conducts with her fists, she just holds the baton - the tip conveys absolutely no information. Watch videos of the older generation conductors, men who really knew how to use a stick: Reiner, Boult, Maazel, Cluytens, Walter and such. They had total control over the music and the orchestra with a minimum of hysterics and dancing thanks to their baton skills. The few conducting lessons I had were given by a skilled opera/ballet conductor who taught me to put the left hand in my pocket, anchor my right elblw on my side and use only the forearm, wrist, fingers and ultimately the baton. I'm grateful to him for his insistence - it forced me to be as clear and precise as possible and boy has it paid off. I can get through a 90 minute Nutcracker without breaking a sweat. Look at conductors with lousy stick technic - Solti, Bernstein, Furtwangler - the "sweaty ones" as Boult called them. They were physical wrecks caused in large part by their poor baton skills. I play regularly in several orchestras and there's one guy who studied in Italy and spent 40 years conducting opera - his baton technic is beautiful to watch: economical, clear, fluid, precise. There is never any doubt what he wants and what's happening. Fermatas are simple. Too bad US university music schools don't teach conducting better and really go back to using a baton correctly.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

I use a 'King David' 12W TCK. Lovely cork on the end. 

Also use a knitting needle or a singular chopstick sometimes (I kid you not) but I find it makes no difference.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

mbhaub said:


> Watch videos of the older generation conductors, men who really knew how to use a stick: Reiner, Boult, Maazel, Cluytens, Walter and such. They had total control over the music and the orchestra with a minimum of hysterics and dancing thanks to their baton skills....


Yes, it is remarkable to watch these guys in action, Monteux and Mravinsky were very conservative in their motions as well.



> there's one guy who studied in Italy and spent 40 years conducting opera - his baton technic is beautiful to watch: economical, clear, fluid, precise. There is never any doubt what he wants and what's happening. Fermatas are simple. Too bad US university music schools don't teach conducting better and really go back to using a baton correctly.


Yes, conducting opera, musical theater, anything with solo voices, is a challenge....a clear beat, with good stick technique is a great asset....sure makes it easier for the orchestra!!


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

*The Baton*



Radames said:


> Is it needed? ...


Perhaps if you could ask that question to Jean-Baptiste Lully, you'd get the answer that a conductor is better off without a Baton.


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## Radames (Feb 27, 2013)

SONNET CLV said:


> *The Baton*
> 
> Perhaps if you could ask that question to Jean-Baptiste Lully, you'd get the answer that a conductor is better off without a Baton.


I've heard that story. Maybe that's why they use a smaller baton now instead of a staff. Safety first!


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## Radames (Feb 27, 2013)

mbhaub said:


> A baton is like a Harry Potter wand: it must be matched to the user. I prefer a 14" made of very light wood, painted white, with a good cork on the end.


Aren't you afraid the wood will break? Surely aluminum would work and you would not have to worry about it breaking.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Aluminum is too heavy, seriously. I have a specialized baton made of fibre optic material that is illuminated - it's very useful in a dark pit. But it's heavy - after a while you notice a tension in the hand that isn't there with a light, wooden baton. There's one conductor who is so picky about it that he makes his own; in his book on conducting, Christopher Seaman (formerly of the Rochester Philharmonic) spends a chapter describing how to make one. It's not that he can't afford to buy one, but the only way he can get it exactly right is to make it himself. I don't go that far, but having tried batons made of fiberglass, stainless steel, and other materials, for me, a very light wood one is best. I've never broken one, nor have I ever tossed one while conducting. The dog however, loves to chew on them...


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## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

Radames said:


> Is it needed? What should it be made out of? Should a conductor have a spare baton? If it's so important shouldn't he have a spare? A few weeks ago I was in Boston and Slobodeniouk's baton broke in the first movement of the Dvorak 7th Symphony. He was left holding a little stub which he quickly got rid of. He finished the piece without it. Did he actually need it in the first place? Perhaps wood isn't the best material because it can break so easily. I saw Jean-François Rivest break a baton accidentally several years ago at a concert. He also finished the piece without it.


In some youth orchestras, like that of my school, people never look at the conductor, so it doesn't really matter whether the conductor has it or not.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

KevinW said:


> In some youth orchestras, like that of my school, people never look at the conductor, so it doesn't really matter whether the conductor has it or not.


As a middle school band director, I concur with this statement.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

It's no must but personally I love seeing conductor with a baton . I also know that lots of musicians like it when the man in charge uses one and not a pin stick like Gergiev.


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## david johnson (Jun 25, 2007)

I prefer using the baton.


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## Radames (Feb 27, 2013)

I remember one concert where the conductor walked out on stage and then realized he didn't have his baton. He ran backstage and after a few minutes emerged with his stick so the concert could start.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Rogerx said:


> It's no must but personally I love seeing conductor with a baton . I also know that lots of musicians like it when the man in charge uses one and not a pin stick like Gergiev.


Those ones that look like a cocktail stick always make me smile. Go big or go home.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Radames said:


> Did he actually need it in the first place?





Heck148 said:


> ...in the right hands, a clear beat is easily discerned - "follow the stick" is the watchword for orchestra musicians...


The main thing the baton does is help a conductor (assuming proper training and self awareness) focus their hand and arm movements. That's not nothing. There are conductors who achieved great clarity with a baton, but it is important to note that there those who achieved it with just their hands. Pierre Boulez is an undeniable example of the latter. His rhythmic clarity without a baton was legendary.

The fact of the matter is that the plea to "follow the stick" is a bit of a misnomer. Mostly the orchestral musicians are not looking directly at the conductor at all, but rather using peripheral vision. And in your peripheral vision, you cannot at all discern the stick itself when it's in motion. (Frankly I'm not sure you can see it all that well when it's in motion even looking right at it! Especially not from the back of the orchestra...)

In my experience, "follow the stick" is usually an admonition from a mediocre or worse conductor trying to pass blame for the errors they are causing onto the ensemble. This is very common.

Anyway, no, a baton isn't strictly necessary for a conductor. The orchestra is not some Boeing 747 taxiing towards the gate. But the baton can be a tool useful for the job, optional but fairly recommended. The biggest problem is that most conductors-including remarkably many who make money doing it-don't really understand their job all that well.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Knorf said:


> The biggest problem is that most conductors-including remarkably many who make money doing it-don't really understand their job all that well.


That's an understatement! The Imposter Syndrome is rampant in society. There are so many charlatans in the conducting world and so few musicians willing to call them out. As an instrumentalist or singer you cannot fake it, in the classical arena anyway. But conductors! The level of incompetence, the laziness, the pomposity sometimes is unbearable. In Leonard Slatkin's latest book he warns conductors that you'd better know what you're doing because there are 80 players there who think they can do a better job than you and most of them are probably right. My disdain for conductors is endless.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

mbhaub said:


> That's an understatement! The Imposter Syndrome is rampant in society. There are so many charlatans in the conducting world and so few musicians willing to call them out. As an instrumentalist or singer you cannot fake it, in the classical arena anyway. But conductors! The level of incompetence, the laziness, the pomposity sometimes is unbearable. In Leonard Slatkin's latest book he warns conductors that you'd better know what you're doing because there are 80 players there who think they can do a better job than you and most of them are probably right. My disdain for conductors is endless.


I think there should be something like a Hippocratic Oath for conductors: first, no do harm!

The salient problem is that too many conductors are in it for the wrong reason, for sheer self-aggrandizement. Those are the ones you really have to watch out for! They think the orchestra is their instrument, and that they're indispensable. (Wrong on both counts, buddy.)


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Radames said:


> Yeah, but that's Bugs. No one can beat Bugs.


Do you know what he needs instead?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Knorf said:


> I think there should first be something like a Hippocratic Oath for conductors: first, no do harm!
> 
> The salient problem is that too many conductors are in it for the wrong reason, for sheer self-aggrandizement. Those are the ones you really have to watch out for! They think the orchestra is their instrument, and that they're indispensable. (Wrong on both counts, buddy.)


There is a story about a conductor sending out one of his proteges saying "Go out there and don't disturb the orchestra"'


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Becca said:


> There is a story about a conductor sending out one of his proteges saying "Go out there and don't disturb the orchestra"'


Love it! Do you remember who it is?


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Knorf said:


> The salient problem is that too many conductors are in it for the wrong reason, for sheer self-aggrandizement. Those are the ones you really have to watch out for! They think the orchestra is their instrument, and that they're indispensable. (Wrong on both counts, buddy.)


Absolutely!! Real phonies, who have no concept of orchestra sound, balance, dynamics or much of anything else..but they get this big head, like they're the new Bernstein, Szell, Reiner or whoever. . But they are clueless..
Bernstein wrote about his studies with Reiner, who was a demanding taskmaster...Reiner admonished his students - <<Never get in front of an orchestra unless you know exactly what you are doing, what you want to hear>> gawd, so many of these turkeys aren't remotely close....they follow the orchestra, cluelessly flapping about like some sort of demented penguin..

"Follow the stick" is a concept i was taught, and I've followed, mainly to cover my ***...when the conductor does something stupid, follow the stick...the jerk may get pissed off at you, but you claim you just followed the stick...he gave the downbeat, you played..."what should i do?? Not follow you??" You did what he wanted, he screwed up...I've used it quite a few times..


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Knorf said:


> Love it! Do you remember who it is?


I wish that I did, other than a vague recollection that it was a well known name.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

There's one American conductor who is going to remain nameless. He's no great interpreter, has a lousy technique, inferior ear and little to say. Before this gig, he was driven out of his first appointment. The orchestra had a Good Riddance party when he was not rehired (I know one of the players quite well). Then he came to us. I was at a party some dozen years ago and he was there, just wanting to be "one of the guys". He said something that struck me as being exactly his problem: he studied his instrument for a long time and finally realized that he would never make a living playing, never would win an audition with a major - or even minor - orchestra, so decided that he'd take the easy way out and entered the conducting program. Besides, it pays a lot better. He should be forever grateful that good orchestras let him on their podium - they covered for him all too much. He did leave the position, took another but was soon found out for the fraud he was. Now he's eking out a living with a small, semi-pro group, which is about all he's good enough for. He was the epitome of what's wrong in the business: he's was a relatively attractive guy, and to some board members that's all that mattered: can he raise money by schmoozing the wealthier patrons.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

mbhaub said:


> ...... He was the epitome of what's wrong in the business: he's was a relatively attractive guy, and to some board members that's all that mattered: can he raise money by schmoozing the wealthier patrons.


I know the type well, all too prevalent....slick talker, charming, spews forth the bs, dazzles the Board of Directors...but a total putz on the podium....


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

mbhaub said:


> That's an understatement! The Imposter Syndrome is rampant in society. There are so many charlatans in the conducting world and so few musicians willing to call them out. As an instrumentalist or singer you cannot fake it, in the classical arena anyway. But conductors! The level of incompetence, the laziness, the pomposity sometimes is unbearable. In Leonard Slatkin's latest book he warns conductors that you'd better know what you're doing because there are 80 players there who think they can do a better job than you and most of them are probably right. My disdain for conductors is endless.


Charlatans or amateurs? There is a big difference, and not everything is what it seems. There are conductors who were trained, but lack flair and imagination (like, say, Thielemann). And there are those who are the opposite. Sir Thomas Beecham fits the latter, but managed to be a major recording artist of the Twentieth Century, an important pioneer in the music of Berlioz and Delius, founder of the London Philharmonic, and co-founder of the Royal Philharmonic.

This remind me of the Gilbert Kaplan controversy years ago where people were clearly split regarding his conducting skills and artistry.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Let's talk training: long gone are the days when the conductors came up through the opera system. They served as a rehearsal pianist, playing percussion as needed, or served as a prompter. It could take years before they were allowed to conduct a rehearsal or a performance. But when they did they knew their craft. Today that can't happen: opera houses are not as ubiquitous these days. But even then there's a sad lack of technical training. In the back of Charry's biography of Szell he goes through the things that a wannabe student of his was expected to do: sight reading a full score at the piano was essential. Do you know how many conductors today can do that? Very, very, very few. In all my regular playing there's one, but then he studied in Italy and conducted opera there for 30-40 years. Makes sense. Some conductors like to dismiss that as an important skill; I disagree. Too many conductors learn the music from listening to recordings. That's a terrible way to learn music. When I need to learn a score I sit at the keyboard with a piano version of whatever the music is - if it's available - and bang my way through it until I know that every nook and cranny. To be sure, not every great conductor could do that. When I read conductor biographies from the Golden Age, I'm always struck by just how demanding their entrance exams were, how difficult their training was. Malcolm Sargent, regardless of what you might think of him, was a superbly technically trained conductor. Bruno Walter paid his dues as did Erich Leinsdorf. There's a lot more to conducting that emoting and thrashing your head of hair about.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

The only major conductor who I can think of, who came up through the opera repetiteur ranks is Tony Pappano. I am sure that there must be some other, less well known names who had that background, e.g. Marco Armiliato(?)


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Merl said:


> Those ones that look like a cocktail stick always make me smile. Go big or go home.
> 
> View attachment 161735



This is even more ridiculous


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Rogerx said:


> This is even more ridiculous


Lol, that may even be a matchstick, Roger. :lol:


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

mbhaub said:


> Let's talk training: long gone are the days when the conductors came up through the opera system. They served as a rehearsal pianist, playing percussion as needed, or served as a prompter. It could take years before they were allowed to conduct a rehearsal or a performance. But when they did they knew their craft. Today that can't happen: opera houses are not as ubiquitous these days. But even then there's a sad lack of technical training. In the back of Charry's biography of Szell he goes through the things that a wannabe student of his was expected to do: sight reading a full score at the piano was essential. Do you know how many conductors today can do that? Very, very, very few. In all my regular playing there's one, but then he studied in Italy and conducted opera there for 30-40 years. Makes sense. Some conductors like to dismiss that as an important skill; I disagree. Too many conductors learn the music from listening to recordings. That's a terrible way to learn music. When I need to learn a score I sit at the keyboard with a piano version of whatever the music is - if it's available - and bang my way through it until I know that every nook and cranny. To be sure, not every great conductor could do that. When I read conductor biographies from the Golden Age, I'm always struck by just how demanding their entrance exams were, how difficult their training was. Malcolm Sargent, regardless of what you might think of him, was a superbly technically trained conductor. Bruno Walter paid his dues as did Erich Leinsdorf. There's a lot more to conducting that emoting and thrashing your head of hair about.


Thank you. ..............


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## Krummhorn (Feb 18, 2007)

Our choir director in high school (many moons ago) used a baton ... until ... one concert where the entire lid had been removed from the grand piano (as the piano had to be on stage left) ... while doing some energetic directioning, the baton slipped from his fingers and went straight into the piano strings which caused a ruckus to say the least. Don't think he ever used a baton in concert after that. 

Our choir director at church does not use a baton - hands only ... my former church choir director always used a baton. 

Kh


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## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

Rogerx said:


> This is even more ridiculous


It is likely to be that his baton broke before the performance or he lost it... He has to find a pencil or something like that as a substitution...


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

KevinW said:


> It is likely to be that his baton broke before the performance or he lost it... He has to find a pencil or something like that as a substitution...


No, Valery Gergiev regularly conducts with only a toothpick, and has for many years.

The point is not that the players "watch the stick." They mostly don't, at all, because most of the time the orchestra is using peripheral vision only, and when doing so you cannot specifically see the baton when it is in motion.

The main purpose of the baton is help focus the gestures of the hand and arm, and the length of the baton is not really materially important to that purpose.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

KevinW said:


> It is likely to be that his baton broke before the performance or he lost it... He has to find a pencil or something like that as a substitution...


No , he uses them all the time .


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Knorf said:


> The main purpose of the baton is help focus the gestures of the hand and arm, and the length of the baton is not really materially important to that purpose.


The length of the baton makes a huge difference, if, and that's a big if nowadays, the conductor has the necessary technique in using a baton. Go watch videos from old times, conductors like Reiner, Walter, Boult, and even Lawrence Welk, Mantovani, and Mitch Miller. They all used long batons - 14 inches at least. The tip of that baton is incredibly expressive, precise and communicates with the orchestra quite nicely. When you're in a playing situation you often need every visual clue you can get. Staring down a page riddled with notes you rely on peripheral vision and that long baton is very, very important and useful. I just played a gig on Sunday with one of those expressive, emotive types who didn't use a stick. He wore a reddish/orange top, and kept his hands close together near his face pretending to be so emotional. Trouble was, there was no sense of beat, ensemble was sloppy, entrances uncertain and players find themselves adrift. There was one piece with a guest conductor and she did use a baton and what a difference! She had obviously had some training; the beat was precise as was the playing. Batons are important.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

The baton is not essential for a conductor to be clear. And the length doesn't matter. With peripheral vision, even a long baton is basically not visible and what you're really watching is the conductor's arms, especially if you're at any distance from the conductor such as the second row of woodwinds, in a large orchestra.

And again I mention one the greatest conductors, one renowned for astounding clarity in rhythm and ensemble, was Pierre Boulez, who never, ever used a baton. 

My personal experience is that conductors who rely on huge batons are the sloppiest of all.

But the truth is that there are conductors who are mess with a baton or without, and those who are very clear with or without. The baton is optional.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

Rogerx said:


> This is even more ridiculous


That's a cigarette. You should see how it looks when it's lit.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

fbjim said:


> That's a cigarette. You should see how it looks when it's lit.


Seen him a lot conducting, I do not believe he smokes during working hours.


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