# Granate's Bruckner Challenge - Symphony No.6



## Granate

*No trash* :-D

Decent:
24th: Venzago BrSO
23rd: Tintner NZSO
22nd: Horenstein LSO
21st: Jochum SKD
20th: Gielen SWR
19th: Haitink RCO
18th: Chailly RCO

Good:
17th: Klemperer BBC 
16th: Haitink DSK
15th: Wand KRSO
14th: Young HPO
13th: Jochum SOdBR (1p)
12th: Eschenbach LPO
11th: Maazel SOdBR (2p)

*TOP10*

_10th_ (3p)









*Bruckner*
Symphony No.6 in A major (1881 Version, Ed. Nowak)
*Cond. Herbert Blomstedt, LGO, Querstand (2008)*

_Well done through the whole text. Many times is seemed more joyful than philosophical, but enthusiasm is ok here._
*C+*

_9th_ (4p)









*Bruckner*
Symphony No.6 in A major (1881 Version, Ed. Nowak)
*Cond. Takashi Asahina, OPO, Jean Jean (1977/2000 Issue Edition)*

_Divisive. It can be perceived as messy with the forces and instruments, as well as the floppy sound at the Maestoso, but once we get in the details, the brass, the strings of the Adagio fortissimo... all works out. _
*C+*

_8th_









*Bruckner*
Symphony No.6 in A major (1881 Version, Ed. Haas)
*Cond. Horst Stein, WPO, Decca (1972/1991 Reissue Edition)*

_A remarkable recording thanks to the management of the brass, which hits in the right spots and with a fantastic sound. One forgets this is the Wiener Philharmoniker or Stein._
*C+*

_7th_ (5p)









*Bruckner*
Symphony No.6 in A major (1881 Version, Ed. Haas)
*Cond. Herbert von Karajan, BPO, DG (1979)*

_Same kind of problem as Wand: hey! Here the brass is essential, let it sing. It was satisfying anyway, with a Scherzo below the average and a weirdly brilliant Finale._
*C+*

_6th_ (6p)









*Bruckner*
Symphony No.6 in A major (1881 Version, Ed. Nowak)
*Cond. Georg Solti, CSO, Decca (1979/1996 Remastered Edition)*

_Solti has here a good deal of brass to manage in the Maestoso (a success) and in the Scherzo and Finale (well done). Thenn the adagio is a little left behind. On a high level._
*C+*


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## Granate

*TOP5 No.6*

_5th_









*Bruckner*
Symphony No.6 in A major (1881 Version, Ed. Nowak)
*Cond. Wolfgang Sawallisch, BySO, Orfeo (1981)*

_Way different from others and with great acoustics. The instruments shine and the Adagio strings are incredible._
*C+*

_TOP4_ (7p)









*Bruckner*
Symphony No.6 in A major (1881 Version, Ed. Haas)
*Cond. Sergiu Celibidache, MPO, WC (1991/2011 Issue Edition)*

_If I was honest I was a bit dissapointed with the recording, but nevertheless it is great. Again slow. The soundscape is spectacularly clear, spotless, like new. The timpani in the Maestoso and the management of the strings in the Finale are highlights, while the Adagio is more contemplative than philosophical._
*B-*

_*TOP3*_ (8p)









*Bruckner*
Symphony No.6 in A major (1881 Version, Ed. Nowak)
*Cond. Daniel Barenboim, CSO, DG (1978)*

_Christal-clear audio with an excellent management of the brass in the Scherzo and strings in the Adagio. Top class!_
*B-*

_*TOP2*_ (9p)









*Bruckner*
Symphony No.6 in A major (1881 Version, Ed. Nowak)
*Cond. Stanisław Skrowaczewski, RSOS, Oehms (2003)*

_That was easy! He was getting the force out of the Maestoso from the first notes and also for managing the challenges of the Adagio. The Scherzo went well but the finale was a bit safe..._
*B-*

_*TOP1*_ (10p)









*Bruckner*
Symphony No.6 in A major (1881 Version, Ed. Haas)
*Cond. Otto Klemperer, NPO, WC (1964/2015 Remastered Edition)*

_As gorgeus as everyone tells me? It comes close. I do not hear something as emotional as Celibidache but Klemperer has his feet on the ground and focuses in getting the best of every movement. The first half is really well achieved. The brass plays the main role and the strings steal the show in the adagio. The way it has to be, but *I am open to alternatives.*_
*B*

Really satisfied with this episode. I find the four first as all winners. It is not as a clear favourite as others say, but there are reasons. I find after the listenings that this is the brass show-off symphony, which leads the Chicago Symphony Orchestra to overperform and place very high. It is a pleasure to find the first Barenboim B6 so high, and also Skrowaczewski.
My notes are: Klemperer: classic, hard; Celibidache: contemplative, tender; Barenboim: clear, passional.


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## Vaneyes




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## Heck148

this is the clear winner for me - unrivaled:

Bruckner
Symphony No.6 in A major (1881 Version, Ed. Nowak)
*Cond. Georg Solti, CSO,* Decca (1979/1996 Remastered Edition)

Solti was a great Bruckner conductor, and this is one of his very best - right from the "Edge" - the nervous, tense "Morse code" figure in the violins heralds a dynamic, exciting performance.


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## david johnson

Bongartz/Leipzig is the 6th that always gets my vote  Give a listen -


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## sbmonty

I think Solti with the CSO is terrific. I am becoming quite curious about Celibidache however.


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## Merl

Granate said:


> *Bruckner*
> Symphony No.6 in A major (1881 Version, Ed. Nowak)
> *Cond. Takashi Asahina, OPO, Jean Jean (1977/2000 Issue Edition)*
> 
> _Divisive. It can be perceived as messy with the forces and instruments, as well as the floppy sound at the Maestoso, but once we get in the details, the brass, the strings of the Adagio fortissimo... all works out. _
> *C+*


With you on this one.


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## Granate

sbmonty said:


> I think Solti with the CSO is terrific. I am becoming quite curious about Celibidache however.


Many Brucknerians adore Celibidache, but as I say here, it is a very distinctive style.
I had the same curiosity that you had now, but then I made the terrible decision of starting my first Celibidache listening with Bruckner No.3 for EMI. Do try his *Brahms* in any label: Altus, EMI or DG. He made me love a composer I hated at first.

Venzago is also a curious conductor on Bruckner. It reprerents the "minimalistic" trend and his cycle for CPO is one of the most recent.


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## sbmonty

Granate said:


> Many Brucknerians adore Celibidache, but as I say here, it is a very distinctive style.
> I had the same curiosity that you had now, but then I made the terrible decision of starting my first Celibidache listening with Bruckner No.3 for EMI. Do try his *Brahms* in any label: Altus, EMI or DG. He made me love a composer I hated at first.
> 
> Venzago is also a curious conductor on Bruckner. It reprerents the "minimalistic" trend and his cycle for CPO is one of the most recent.


Thank you. I was going to ask if Celibidache was recommendable for other composers, or primarily Bruckner? Venzago I've never heard, but the CPO label is becoming a favourite. Thanks again.


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## Becca

Granate said:


> Many Brucknerians adore Celibidache, but as I say here, it is a very distinctive style.


After reading about Celi for so many years, I finally took the plunge and watched the video of his return to the Berlin Phil followed by the video of the concert featuring the Bruckner 7th. I made it through the first movement and got a few minutes into the second before I decided that I had had enough and couldn't tolerate his tempi. You must realize that these comments comes from someone who puts Otto Klemperer high on my list of favorite conductors, even some of his later, slower recordings.


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## Granate

Becca said:


> After reading about Celi for so many years, I finally took the plunge and watched the video of his return to the *Berlin Phil* followed by the video of the concert featuring the *Bruckner 7th*. I made it through the first movement and got a few minutes into the second before I decided that I had had enough and couldn't tolerate his tempi. You must realize that these comments comes from someone who puts Otto Klemperer high on my list of favorite conductors, even some of his later, slower recordings.


I am going to review that performance and other *three* more Celibidache B7. Tempi is not enough to like him. It depends on the sound for me.



sbmonty said:


> Thank you. I was going to ask if Celibidache was recommendable for other composers, or primarily Bruckner? Venzago I've never heard, but the CPO label is becoming a favourite. Thanks again.


Celi seems to be a master of Bruckner. I have not dig in other composers away from Brahms, Beethoven and Bruckner. His Beethoven is also really slow, and hardly ever comprehensible. However, he made gorgeous efforts like Beethoven's No.3 and No.8 for EMI/WC. He insults No.5 and No.9 with the tempi for instance. With the EMI releases, it seems it depends more on the sound quality and acoustics than the performance itself. It is Celi branded, and consider he did not want to do any studio recording.

I am never saying that Venzago is a new artist or a new Bruckner master (Simone Young IMO). What I say is that he stands out from what I call the "crowd" (say Böhm, Barenboim, Karajan, Solti, Haitink). I can only compare Venzago's dare to the one Jochum had with his DG set.


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## realdealblues

As I said before Klemperer is the only Bruckner 6th for me. Glad to see it high on the list where it belongs. 

Even the controversial ClassicsToday critic David Hurwitz says it's the best ever put on disc.


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## Granate

david johnson said:


> Bongartz/Leipzig is the 6th that always gets my vote  Give a listen











*Bruckner*
Symphony No.6 in A major (1881 Version, Ed. Haas)
*Cond. Heinz Bongartz, LGO, Berlin (1964/2001 Remastered Edition)*

_The extremely sharp motive of the strings is not what I usually like. However, this deserves a bright spot in a ranking for being different to others. I wouldn't keep it, but I would say it's a good choice._
*C+*


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## bz3

Celi and Karajan get the most play by me. I didn't listen to the famous Klemperer until after I was familiar with other interpretations of the symphony but I'm enjoying it more and more.


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## Brahmsian Colors

I purchased Klemperer's B6 when it was first released on vinyl. Only the Bongartz has come close to challenging it as my preferred version.


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## Pugg

Haydn67 said:


> I purchased Klemperer's B6 when it was first released on vinyl. Only the Bongartz has come close to challenging it as my preferred version.


Do tell please, the L.P still in your collection?


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## Brahmsian Colors

Pugg said:


> Do tell please, the L.P still in your collection?


Hi Pugg...Well, it was until about two years ago, when I bought the identical performance in a better sounding British EMI version. I had reached the point where I could no longer enjoy listening to those somewhat brighter sounding Angel blue label pressings made in the U.S.


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## Bruckner Anton

TBO, I dont understand why so many people rate Klemperer' Bruckner 6 so high. For me, the orchestra playing is obviously inferior to many versions like those by BPO/RCO, and the solemn slow movement is treated with less depth. 
Barenboim's later BPO version has better orchestra balance than his earlier CSO brass-dominating version, which should be a big advantage for Bruckner symphonies. It deserves a place in top 10.


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## Becca

Bruckner Anton said:


> TBO, I dont understand why so many people rate Klemperer' Bruckner 6 so high. For me, the orchestra playing is _*obviously *_inferior to many versions like those by BPO/RCO, and the solemn slow movement is treated with less depth.
> Barenboim's later BPO version has better orchestra balance than his earlier CSO brass-dominating version, which should be a big advantage for Bruckner symphonies. It deserves a place in top 10.


"obviously" - apparently not to a lot of critics and listeners. Pray tell, how is it obviously inferior?


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

My favorite is Celi followed by Karajan but I haven't heard all of the ones in the top 10. Something to do in the near future.


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## Bruckner Anton

Becca said:


> "obviously" - apparently not to a lot of critics and listeners. Pray tell, how is it obviously inferior?


I will be able to elaborate when I get back to home and check the recordings and score.


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## Bruckner Anton

My personal thoughts on the performance, taking the first theme of the first movement as an example. I am comparing Klemperer PO with Karajan BPO, Haitink RCO and Celi Munchner EMI, using the score from IMSLP. I dont know how to insert pictures on this forum, I hope I am doing correctly.

1. the opening rhythm: bar 1
A typical Brucknerian 2+3 pattern. But the important difference is the 16th rest, and moreover, the staccato mark on the first note and the "leggiero" expression, which indicates that it should be shortened and played lively. These features are crucial and must be presented clearly, because it is these basic elements that really generate great drive and tension through the entire movement (without them, the theme will sound ponderous).

All of the HvK, Haitink and Celi version perform this rhythm with a very clear shortened first note. However, Klemperer PO played it slow and soggy.

2. Details from the first theme: bar 7-9
With the entry of viola, the staccato strings begin to accumulate power from pp to p in order to accompany the theme played by cello and bass (firstly pp then mf). An approach Bruckner over-used in his symphonies to illustrate the opening theme.

All of the Hvk, Haitink and Celi orchestras play this section strictly according to the indication, while Klemperer PO played almost sudden quiet pp staccato at bar 9, which is obviously against the composer's plot.








3. Theme one Tutti bar 25-28
The first tutti explodes at bar 25 (rehearsal mark A) majestically. Bruckner uses timpani playing forte to enhance the pillar rhythm that is played by string groups, so that it will not be overshadowed easily by the brilliant brass.

Hvk BPO and Celi MPO let the timpani part played very powerful and clear (Haitink also make the timpani decently loud). But for Klemperer PO, in the exposition the timpani is not loud enough, at least it does not become the driving force of the music. At first, I think it is the sound quality that should be blamed, until I heard the same timpani part comes back in the recapitulation very loud - why don't the PO do the same thing in the exposition? I don't understand it.

By the way, the brass playing of PO at the end of the development section and at the beginning of the recap. is definitely no match for BPO, RCO and MPO in terms of balance, timbre and majesty.















I know my review is against the general consensus on the recordings of this symphony. I am definitely not intended to be offensive to the maestro Klemperer and PO. But for this specific acclaimed recording, I do have my personal feeling that it is generally overrated. It will be highly appreciated if you guys can share your valuable points.


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## merlinus

Listened to Karajan/BPO last night, and frankly was bored until the last movement. There were parts of the adagio that were very beautiful, but the awful sonics were a huge detraction. Very muddy, with great loss of detail.

That's why Celi works much better for me, and I have also enjoyed van Zwede, which has excellent sound. BTW, I did not see his version in the rankings...


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## merlinus

Adding more to the importance of sound quality for me... 

Whilst I love most of Furtwangler's interpretations of Beethoven and Bruckner, I cannot listen to them more than once or twice a year due to the dreadful sonics. In Bruckner, and Mahler as well, the richness of the orchestration is ruined when the SQ does not match up. 

So much is lost in congestion, muddiness, and lack of breadth that the overall experience is not nearly as deep and expansive as it is with better recorded interpretations.


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## Granate

merlinus said:


> ... I have also enjoyed van Zwede, which has excellent sound. BTW, I did not see his version in the rankings...











*Bruckner*
Symphony No.6 in A major (1881 Version, Ed. Nowak)
*Cond. Jaap van Zweden, NthRPO, Challenge Classics (2012)*

_It features an excellent audio quality without a lot of spatial depth. Good spot on his Bruckner set._
*C+*

*12th below Maazel and above Eschenbach*

I did this weeks ago!


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## merlinus

Granate said:


> *Bruckner*
> Symphony No.6 in A major (1881 Version, Ed. Nowak)
> *Cond. Jaap van Zweden, NthRPO, Challenge Classics (2012)*
> 
> _It features an excellent audio quality without a lot of spatial depth. Good spot on his Bruckner set._
> *C+*
> 
> *12th below Maazel and above Eschenbach*
> 
> I did this weeks ago!


Thanks for the update. Something is amiss, for me at least, because his version still does not appear anywhere in the posts in this thread before this last one!

Have I been looking in the wrong place?


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## Granate

merlinus said:


> Thanks for the update. Something is amiss, for me at least, because his version still does not appear anywhere in the posts in this thread before this last one!
> 
> Have I been looking in the wrong place?


I reviewed this along with Bongartz, but only posted him (which is better) and not Zweden. It was already in my document but not on TC!


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## merlinus

Granate said:


> I reviewed this along with Bongartz, but only posted him (which is better) and not Zweden. It was already in my document but not on TC!


Thanks for the info. Where is your document posted?


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## Granate

merlinus said:


> Thanks for the info. Where is your document posted?


Ok: I write my document in the labtop with all the * and [/I] and I need to configure the TC posts, and then every four or five listenings I make a post copying and pasting the text in TC. It is a way to create series of posts faster and save time. So the document is being submitted regularly to TC in the form of episodes.

So the answer to your question is: my computer.*


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## merlinus

Just listened to Blomstedt/Gewandhaus. My oh my, what a difference excellent sound quality makes! Karajan was so down in the mud I could not even listen to his version.

Blomstedt keeps up a fairly rapid pace, but with the SACD SQ I could hear, and enjoy, all the themes, instruments, and nuances of the music.


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## Orfeo

This album here is a solid, strong contender.


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## merlinus

Just listened to the SACD version of van Zweden/NRPO. Much better sound than the CD, with lots more detail, and definitely a contender for the best.


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## Granate

*After the Round-Up - No.6*

*No.6 Results:*
Trash
*46th:* Rozhdestvensky USSR (*flawless Adagio)

Decent
45th: Venzago BrSO
44th: Tintner NZSO
*43rd:* Dohnányi ClO
*42nd:* Blomstedt SFSO
41st: Horenstein LSO
40th: Jochum SKD
*39th:* López-Cobos CnSO
38th: Gielen SWR
*37th:* Kegel LRSO
*36th:* Rögner RSOB
*35th:* Janowski OSR
*34th:* Inbal RSOF
*33rd:* Wand SOdNDR 1995
32nd: Haitink RCO
*31st:* Jansons RCO
*30th:* Barenboim SKB
*29th:* Lim KSO
*28th:* Paternostro WPR
27th: Chailly RCO
*26th:* Asahina TMSO

Good
25th: Klemperer BBC SO
24th: Haitink SKD
*23th:* Masur LGO
*22nd:* Wand SOdNDR 1988
21st: Wand KRSO
20th: Young HPO
19th: Jochum SOdBR (1p)
18th: Eschenbach LPO
*17th:* Barenboim BPO
*16th:* Zweden, NthRPO
15th: Maazel SOdBR
*14th:* Wand MPO *(1p)*
13th: Blomstedt LGO (2p)
*12th:* Eichhorn BOL *(3p)*
*11th:* Bongartz LGO
*10th:* Muti BPO
9th: Asahina OPO (4p)
8th: Stein WPO
7th: Karajan BPO (5p)
6th: Solti CSO (6p)
5th: Sawallisch BySO

Very good
4th: Celibidache MPO (7p)
3rd: Barenboim CSO (8p)
2nd: Skrowaczewski RSOS (9p)
1st: Klemperer NPO (10p)

Highlights from the Round-up:










Bruckner
_*Symphony No.6 in A major*_
1881 Version, Ed. Nowak
USSR Ministry of Culture Symphony Orchestra
*Gennadi Rozhdestvensky
Venezia (1984/2009 Reissue Edition)*

_What a disaster. The brass is all over the place and makes a mess of the scherzo, not to say the first and last movements. And like a miracle, the Russian Conductor and the orchestra reveal a hypnotizing Adagio with such lush in the strings that could have served for a winning No.5. *So far, it stands as the best Adagio of all the recordings listed, tied with Celibidache.*_
*F*









Bruckner
_*Symphony No.6 in A major*_
1881 Version, Ed. Nowak
Bruckner Orchester Linz
*Kurt Eichhorn
Camerata (1994/2005 Reissue Edition)*

_Consistent effort, passing the test movement by movement and being able to be told apart from all the other recordings._
*C+*









Bruckner
_*Symphony No.6 in A major*_
1881 Version, Ed. Haas
Gewandhausorchester
*Heinz Bongartz
Berlin Classics (1964/2001 Remastered Edition)*

_The extremely sharp motive of the strings is not what I usually like. However, this deserves a bright spot in a ranking for being different to others._
*C+*









Bruckner
_*Symphony No.6 in A major*_
1881 Version, Ed. Nowak
Berliner Philharmoniker
*Riccardo Muti
Warner Classics (1988)*

_Not a great reference but overall on point with all the orchestral features. The strings sound a little to Verdi but the Adagio is really fine._
*C+*


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