# I'm looking for Ralph Vaughan Williams listening advice, please...



## Floeddie (8 mo ago)

I recently acquired a collector's edition of RVW's orchestral works, & I want your advice regarding as to how I approach his music, being as unfamiliar as I am with his material. I listened to his Sea Symphony & enjoyed it, but I have a 13 disc collection and I want to know where to go next. The set is an EMI collection of various performers & conductors. Can you suggest a few of his symphonies, sonatas, concertos, and folk songs that are a worthy listen? I thank you so much for your thoughts and advice.


----------



## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I'd start with Symphonies 2,3 and 5, the oboe concerto, the Lark Ascending, the Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis, and the song cycles On Wenlock Edge and Songs of Travel.

On the other hand, since you liked the Sea symphony and I find it one of his least compositions, it could be that someone else should give you advice.


----------



## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

This is a 42 page reference produced by the Ralph Vaughn Williams Society entitled - "Repertoire Guide - A Guide to his music for concert promoters, performers, and students -"



https://rvwsociety.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Repertoire-guide-April-2021.pdf



"This Guide is designed to expand the detail about selected Vaughan Williams works for potential performers and students, giving the contexts, sources of texts, instrumentations, editions, publication details and arrangements. It is intended to cover both established and the lesser-known works in the hope of encouraging discovery and further performance. The Guide is not designed to displace the current major source of information on RVW’s works, which is Michael Kennedy: A Catalogue of the Works of Ralph Vaughan Williams. Second Ed. Oxford University Press. 1996. ISBN 0-19-816584-6."

Here's an excerpt from the guide mentioned above in regards to Symphony No. 5 in D major -

This symphony, first performed during the darkest days of the Second World War, is perhaps the best loved of all RVW’s symphonies. When the composer conducted the first performance at a Promenade Concert in June 1943, it was regarded as a sort of benediction, giving a glimpse of a peace that perhaps lay some time in the future.

The symphony has particularly strong thematic links to the Morality, The Pilgrim’s Progress, which RVW had been working on for many years & which would not be completed & performed until 1951 & themes throughout all four movements of the symphony occur in that larger work.

The dedication of this symphony, ‘To Jean Sibelius – without permission,’ demonstrates RVW’s high regard for the Finnish master, his influence in this particular work being limited to some of the string writing & the overall clarity of the orchestration.

The 5th Symphony represents the high water mark of the composer’s writing in his more lyrical & modal styles & a good performance can result in a powerful experience for audience & performers."


----------



## Chilham (Jun 18, 2020)

I'm a sucker for a polite request. The Vaughan Williams works from my journey, heading our way in a couple of weeks time.

*Level 2*
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis

*Level 3*
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: Lark Ascending

*Level 4*
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: Symphony No. 2 "The London Symphony"
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: Symphony No. 5
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: Fantasia on Greensleeves
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: Symphony No. 3 "Pastoral"
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: Symphony No. 6
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: Symphony No. 4

*Level 5*
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: On Wenlock Edge
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: Symphony No. 1 "A Sea Symphony"
Vaughan-Williams, Ralph: Symphony No. 7 "Sinfonia Antartica"
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: Symphony No. 9

*Level 6*
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: Job, A Masque for Dancing
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: Mass in G Minor
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: Symphony No. 8
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: English Folksong Suite
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: Serenade to Music
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: Five Mystical Songs
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: Songs of Travel
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: The Wasps
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: Tuba Concerto

*Level 7*
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: Five Variants of "Dives and Lazarus"
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: Fantasia on Christmas Carols
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: Dona Nobis Pacem
Vaughan Williams, Ralph: Sir John in Love

It looks like Art Rock got it about right.


----------



## Floeddie (8 mo ago)

Art Rock said:


> I'd start with Symphonies 2,3 and 5, the oboe concerto, the Lark Ascending, the Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas, and the song cycles On Wenlock Edge and Songs of Travel. On the other hand, since you liked the Sea symphony and I find it one of his least compositions, it could be that someone else should give you advice.


I've also listened to the Fantasia & Wenlock Edge, & I'm in agreement about their quality. I'm still trying to decide what is good & bad, & I don't have enough frame of reference & experience with CM in general to know the subtle differences in RVM's compositions in a meaningful way. It's like asking me as to whether I like red wine or white wine better, and the answer is some of both types equally for me, but not one over the other. Nor do I like all wines, and some are very disagreeable. I have some serious listening to do, no?

I am certainly not qualified to get into a deep discussion about RVM, because I am still learning to appreciate his style. Give me enough listening time & I will develop a meaningful response... but really, thanks for your input as an expert. You are probably "spot on", but if I get enough feedback from the community, I should arrive at some general conclusions about what I liked! All thoughts on the subject are appreciated.


----------



## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Chilham said:


> I'm a sucker for a polite request. The Vaughan Williams works from my journey, heading our way in a couple of weeks time.
> 
> *Level 2*
> Vaughan Williams, Ralph: Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis
> ...


That's a superb lineup - my compliments - I was asked for advice by the OP about starting the thread and assured him that he could count on the forum's British members to provide the advice and guidance needed and that they would be kind and gracious in doing so - Thanks for proving me right!


----------



## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

*Vaughan Williams: Riders to the Sea*

Ingrid Attrot (soprano), Lynne Dawson (soprano), Linda Finnie (mezzo-soprano), Pamela Helen Stephen (mezzo-soprano) & Karl Daymond (baritone), Philip Dukes (viola)
Northern Sinfonia, The Sinfonia Chorus, Richard Hickox

Link to complete label authorized album -



https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_ld92HfUAhuCzDM_gfhdbV3yzHW3CJZwao



Not likely to be first on anyone's list of recommendations is a short opera set in Ireland the RVW wrote in 1937 entitled "Riders to the Sea" based on the play of the same name by John Millington Synge.
It tells the tragic tale of Maurya, an elderly Irish woman who has lost most of her family at sea. There are various travels to Galway and talk of the gorgeous Irish landscape, but it ends with the line -
'They are all gone now, and there isn't anything more the sea can do to me.'

"And may he have mercy on my soul" really is quite lovely and worth a listen -

It's the 10th selection on the link above.


----------



## hoodjem (Feb 23, 2019)

If one enjoys "pastoral" or "bucolic" music, then Vaugh Williams is the most wonderful composer.


----------



## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

This is the link to the actual "Ralph Vaughn Williams Society" website -






Ralph Vaughan Williams Society - Ralph Vaughan Williams Society


A society dedicated to widening the understanding and appreciation of the life and music of Ralph Vaughan Williams.




rvwsociety.com





Click on "Sounds" at the top and a drop down box will appear - Click on "Symphonies" or "Orchestral" or "Choral" or whatever catches your fancy and you'll see that each page has videos of the selections.

This is the "Orchestral" page -






Orchestral - Ralph Vaughan Williams Society







rvwsociety.com





Arguably, one of the most popular folk songs would probably be "May your troubles be as few and far apart as my grandmother's teeth".


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

I enjoy RVW's music a great deal..it is enjoyable to perform....I tend to favor his more boisterous, lively, gutsy scores, tho his more meditiative, bucolic music is attractive as well - for mev - 
Sym #4 tops the symphony list - a furious work, angry, stormy. to me, it's VW's reaction to the brutal horrors of WWI...brutally violent, mechanized, grinding gnashing, tearing, ripping fury of modern war...there's nothing glorious, just wanton destruction and death.
Sym #6 is really fine, as is 9, and 2....7 and 8 are very good, and enjoy #1...I love the slow mvt of #3...with its memorial trumpet solo, the elegaic call from afar, for all the dead soldiers of the Great War.....wonderful, haunting...

VW also wrote some great works for band/wind ensemble, which are classics - standard repertoire - English Folk Song Suite, Toccata Marziale...the Fennell/EWE renditions are classics, never bettered, ime....


----------



## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

Floeddie said:


> All thoughts on the subject are appreciated.


This is because you haven't read my input yet. 

That which might seem 'disagreeable' initially may well become, over long periods of time, appetizing.
"trying to decide what is good & bad" is not my notion on how to assess music's values.
A composer manuscript that gets published, performed & recorded via hundreds of people should have enough perceived value not to be labeled as 'bad'.
Yet, persons who are not aesthetically inclined towards 'pastoral' aspects (i.e. modernists) can dismiss Vaughan Williams' _oeuvre_ as cowpat music.
Still others consider anything with operatic singing as 'bad' - just orchestra for them ... no chorus.
As with most other things, such depends upon one's age and sensibilities.

Having said all this, I recommend *Flos Campi*. (haven't seen this VW opus mentioned yet)


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Just yesterday I started my annual RVW listening festival, this time with the Andrew Davis set of symphonies on Warner. I love this music. The overture to The Wasps has the single greatest tune in all of western music, IMO. His concertos leave me unmoved, but the orchestral works and much of the choral music is utterly fantastic. So is the film music. It's just so sad that his music is neglected, at least in concerts. Thank god for recordings.


----------



## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

I would recommend........

Five Variants of Dives and Lazarus
The Lark Ascending
English Folk Song Suite
Symphony no. 3 ("Pastoral")
Symphony no. 5
Oboe Concerto
Suite For Viola and Small Orchestra
Phantasy Quintet For Two Violins, Two Violas and Cello


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

mbhaub said:


> The overture to The Wasps has the single greatest tune in all of western music,


Yes!! The Wasps!! Really excellent overture and suite...fun to play also....


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

hoodjem said:


> If one enjoys "pastoral" or "bucolic" music, then Vaugh Williams is the most wonderful composer.


Perhaps .. but there is nothing the least bit pastoral or bucolic about the 4th, 6th, 7th, 8th & 9th symphonies (i.e. over half of them), Job, Riders to the Sea, Tuba Concerto, Piano Concerto (either version) etc., etc.


----------



## Floeddie (8 mo ago)

errata


----------



## HerbertNorman (Jan 9, 2020)

I listened to all of his symphonies this week and I too wouldn't start with the first one , nor the 7th or the 9th . I think the best way to get to like his music is starting with the 5th or 8th Symphony or the Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis . I really like the 5th Symphony and it was the first I ever listened to if I remember correctly.
The Lark Ascending is one I had to get into...it took some time tbh

I think his concertos are worth a try quite early too imho. The oboe concerto is a gem and so is the Suite For Viola and Small Orchestra.
Enjoy I would say !


----------



## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

The first symphony I listened to was the 7th, because I loved the film for which he wrote the score. Then the 6th, because there is a lovely melody in the first movement that was used for a TV series, _A Family at War_. The first I really fell in love with was the 3rd and not because it was "Pastoral"; I read about the story behind it as I listened to it and I now hear the mellow and melancholic recollections of WW1.

Thanks to Becca, the 5th has grown on me enormously. The 4th I struggle with, mostly because it jars so badly against the 3rd which precedes it on the recordings I have.

Of the two compositions for which he is most lauded by the general public in the UK, I prefer Thomas Tallis over Lark Ascending. It moves me almost every time I listen to it. It's one of those pieces that, for me, proves that music can make emotional connections that have nothing to do with extra-musical associations. It's just beautiful.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I always find boxes difficult for getting to know music. Many of those pieces can reward a deep familiarity but it is so hard to get that when there are always other pieces to listen to. Where to start probably depends on what sort of music you like (On Wenlock Edge in the chamber version was an early love for me while it is an "also ran" for many others). Of course, the Tallis Fantasia is an immediate win along with the Lark Ascending. But for the symphonies it is probably worth giving each one a good few hearings before going on hear another. I found 2 and 4 the most easily accessible and then 5 and 6. But 3, 8 and 9 are all very worthwhile and enjoyable, too.


----------



## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

My favorite RVW is the Symphony #2 "A London Symphony"; #5; and of course #7 "Sinfonia Antarctica" is great fun.


----------



## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

I have always loved his shorter compositions such as the Lark Ascending, Fantasia on Greensleeves and Thomas Tallis Fantasia as well as the Oboe Concerto.

His symphonies have never clicked for me, but of course YMMV. One of them has already impressed you.


----------



## Fredrikalansson (Jan 29, 2019)

I agree with an earlier comment that there isn't much "bad" to be had when dealing with a composer of RVW's stature. Listen to it all.

One problem with big boxes of "essential" music is there are next to nothing in the way of notes. So try looking up each piece on the internet and see if you can find some context, because context is important for RVW. The classic case is the 3rd symphony which was unfortunately titled "The Pastoral", and led a lot of people to dismiss it as an aimless trip through the pastures of England. We now know, from RVW's own comments, that it's an extended, rather desolate, elegy to the lost souls of WWI. 

The other thing to keep in mind is the sheer variety of RVW's music. Too many people like to shove it all into the frisking-lambs-and-lonely-fens garbage can and slam down the lid. If you stand back and look, a lot of his music is quite wacky. A symphony about Antartica? An opera based on the Pilgrim's Progress? A tuba concerto? A piece for solo viola, wordless choir and orchestra (Flos Campi) inspired by the Song of Solomon? And just when you think his music is all tuneful larks and Tudor psalms, you hit something like the dissonant, savage fourth symphony, or the strange visionary 6th. So you have to keep adjusting your expectations.

As for my favourite pieces by RVW, it's usually the one I happen to be listening to.

Have a great voyage of discovery!


----------



## hoodjem (Feb 23, 2019)

Becca said:


> Perhaps .. but there is nothing the least bit pastoral or bucolic about the 4th, 6th, 7th, 8th & 9th symphonies (i.e. over half of them), Job, Riders to the Sea, Tuba Concerto, Piano Concerto (either version) etc., etc.


One might say he had other, varied talents as well.


----------



## Abdel ove Allhan (Jun 19, 2014)

I consider Vaughan Williams to be the greatest symphonist of the 20th century, Sibelius is a close second. The 1st, Sea Symphony is very much in the late romantic style and doesn't appeal to me. the 2nd, London Symphony is moving cautiously into the 20th century with sweeping romantic gestures and is quite lovely. It is a sonic panorama of turn of the century London, one can hear hackney cabs and squeeze box musicians busking on the bustling streets. The 3rd, Pastoral Symphony is a more somber modal and mellifluous work that, in part, is his benediction to those friends and colleagues he lost in WWI. It is his emphatic statement as a master of the symphonic form and unique melodic organization. As Michael Kennedy put it, "There is much ingenious use of rhythm to bind these elements..." (melodies)"...together, and marvelous diatonic counterpoint which has proved to be inimitable, though many have tried to imitate it." #4 is a towering 20th century edifice. It's furious rhythm and tonality is breathtaking. The Scherzo is a swirling dynamo that leads to an even more ferocious finale. His quotes about it are legendary, such as "I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." The 5th symphony is an epiphany. From the first measures it breathes a serene peace like no other musical expression. This work is strongly related to his opera "Pilgrim's Progess", an egregiously neglected theatrical masterpiece. The last movement brings us back to the serenity of the opening statement by the horn section and builds to a glorious vision of celestial tranquility. Where the 4th is a symphonic rampage the 5th is an embrocation that reaches to the very soul. The only other work that is nearly as deeply moving is his Fantasia on a Theme of Thomas Tallis. From here Vaughan Williams continues delving and experimenting with the symphonic form like no other composer save for Sibelius. They both chose to express their musical intentions with a tonal palette, albeit stretched to its limits. The 6th encompasses grand vistas, mysterious and oracular orchestral utterances by separate instrumental families, demonic dances which are shadows of some of his music for Job and a final movement that has been mislabeled as a vision of a nuclear wasteland when in reality it was inspired by the "...rounded by a little sleep." quote from Shakespeare's Tempest. 7 is a wondrous and tragic musical rendering of Capt. Robert Scott's doomed Antarctic expedition. It utilizes music written for the 1948 film "Scott of the Antarctic. It is an immersive experience and never fails to chill one to the bone and immobilize the listener into stunned awe at the gargantuan and towering mountains of solid, sparkling menace. 8 and 9 are delightful and show Vaughan Williams indefatigable experimentation were not attenuated by his advancing age but they don't reach the inspired genius of symphonies 2 through 7. They would be splendid works perhaps even masterpieces by a lesser composer.


----------



## Floeddie (8 mo ago)

Abdel ove Allhan said:


> I consider Vaughan Williams to be the greatest symphonist of the 20th century, Sibelius is a close second.


I really appreciate your input & detail. From all of the comments I've gotten, both yours and the others, I know that RVW's work is worth further pursuit, and you've given me enough to go on, so thank you!


----------



## golfer72 (Jan 27, 2018)

I've been listening to more RVW lately and filling out my collection of his Symphonies. I've heard all the Sym except 7and 8. The 5th is fantastic but i like them all. His violin/piano works are also excellent.


----------



## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

I'd say this list would give you an idea of RWV:

*Symphonies 3-7* ... 3 and 5 are pastoral, 4 and 6 are angry, 7 is mysterious
*Lark Ascending* ... gentle and reassuring 
*English Folk Song Suite* ... traditional English folk music
*Norfolk Rhapsody* (No. 1 though there's only one) ... something like above but mysterious
*Fantasia on Thomas Tallis *... his most famous piece
*Job: A Masque for Dancing* ... more unusual than anything else he wrote


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

larold said:


> I'd say this list would give you an idea of RWV:
> 
> *Symphonies 3-7* ... 3 and 5 are pastoral, 4 and 6 are angry, 7 is mysterious
> ._.................................^^ not if you look beyond the surface_
> ...


----------



## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Some suggestions (in no particular order):

_Symphonies Nos. 2, 3, 5, 6 & 8_ (I'm leaving out _A Sea Symphony_ since you've already heard it, which is a lovely work)
_Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis
Five Variants on 'Dives and Lazarus'
Job, A Masque for Dancing
Concerto for Two Pianos and Orchestra
Flos Campi
On Wenlock Edge
Five Mystical Songs
Partita for Double String Orchestra
String Quartet No. 2
Violin Sonata
Phantasy Quintet
Two Hymn-Tune Preludes_ (No one ever talks about this miniature but it is exquisite)
_Dona Nobis Pacem
Riders to the Sea_

His oeuvre is loaded with gems. You have countless hours of discovery on your hands and I'm going to be incredibly presumptuous and say you're going to enjoy every minute of it. Happy listening!


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I bought the 13 disc Boult box several years ago. For a few years I couldn't really get too interested in the music but this year has been different. I'm listening to the symphonies a lot more and things are starting to click. I'm hearing the themes, and I'm recognizing his harmonic language and personal voice. Like trying to absorb Mahler, Bruckner, or any other large symphony cycle, it requires a large investment of listening time. I'm doing the same thing with Malcolm Arnold this year. I've taken a great liking to his music so I just keep listening.


----------



## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

starthrower said:


> I bought the 13 disc Boult box several years ago. For a few years I couldn't really get too interested in the music but this year has been different. I'm listening to the symphonies a lot more and things are starting to click. I'm hearing the themes, and I'm recognizing his harmonic language and personal voice. Like trying to absorb Mahler, Bruckner, or any other large symphony cycle, it requires a large investment of listening time. I'm doing the same thing with Malcolm Arnold this year. I've taken a great liking to his music so I just keep listening.


Good to see you're enjoying Vaughan Williams now and, yes, it does take time to get into certain composers as our initial response may be that we're underwhelmed and don't feel inspired to keep listening. Thankfully, you kept listening. Malcolm Arnold is one of the more fascinating British composers in that in his symphonies especially we see a real push and pull of high brow and low brow music, which actually reminds of Mahler's own symphonies.


----------

