# Is there a better conductor of the great German composers than Eugen Jochum?!



## RogerWaters (Feb 13, 2017)

His Mozart symphonies with the Bamberg Symphony
His Haydn (12 London) symphonies with the London Philharmonic
His Beethoven symphonies with the Concertgebeouw 
His Schubert (unfinished) symphony with the Boston Symphony
His Brahms symphonies with the London Philharmonic
His Bruckner symphonies with the Staatskapelle (and Berlin/Bavarian)

All delights. All great sound- not too thin, not too muddy. Great tempos- Haydn and Mozart are not too baggy yet not prissy (amazing for a non HIP conductor). Beethoven, Brahms and Bruckner do not lack robustness and metal when required. The great firey furnace is duly invoked.

Now, I can tell I’m going to get the word ‘furtwangler’ thrown at me, but I simply can’t agree due the sometimes strange tempos of the latter. Indeed Jochum could be taken, accurately I think, to be on the ‘flexible’ tempos side of things without being perverse about it.

At any rate, what a conductor!


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## KevinJS (Sep 24, 2021)

You can add his Orff. I have about a dozen copies of Carmina Burana, but I always end up coming back to Jochum.


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## Mannheim Rocket (Aug 1, 2020)

He has a very good Bach B minor Mass as well.


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## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

Otto Klemperer?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

RogerWaters said:


> Now, I can tell I'm going to get the word 'furtwangler' thrown at me, but I simply can't agree due the sometimes strange tempos of the latter.


Furtwangler's tempos are strange? O RLY? What are some examples of them?


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## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

Furtwängler's tempo isn't very weird. I am listening to his Beethoven and it does not sound weird at all, at least compared to other people. Celibidache is super slow sometimes, though.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

It’s not just the tempos. Furtwängler delved deeper into the music than most any conductor, and for some people it is too much. They find him to be wringing meaning from every note, whereas Jochum was closer to the surface.

I like them all and depending upon my mood. In some of my depressed days over the past three decades, Furtwängler’s recordings provided comfort, much the same way they did for people suffering through war. At other times when I’m more “chill” I prefer to hear other recordings in better sound and more straightforward interpretations.


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## RogerWaters (Feb 13, 2017)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> It's not just the tempos. *Furtwängler delved deeper into the music than most any conductor*, and for some people it is too much. They find him to be wringing meaning from every note, whereas Jochum was closer to the surface.
> 
> I like them all and depending upon my mood. In some of my depressed days over the past three decades, Furtwängler's recordings provided comfort, much the same way they did for people suffering through war. At other times when I'm more "chill" I prefer to hear other recordings in better sound and more straightforward interpretations.


Being a 'deeper' conductor to me means having a more unified 'architecture' and 'flow' to one's performances and _not_ get bogged down in details.

The difference between Barenboim and Rosen's Hammerklavier slow movement is instructive here. Barenboim 'delves', but not to good effect. This 'delving' does not necessarily make him a deeper interpreter (unless you simply equate fussing with 'deepness' a priori).

The main problem I have with Furtwangler's recordings is the sound quality, not the interpretations anyway. They often sound very claustrophobic as well as being low-fi.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

To answer your question, my own ranking is:

1. Furtwängler
2. Klemperer
3. Karajan
4. Bohm
5. Jochum
6. Bernstein
7. Walter
8. Giulini
9. Horenstein
10. Kempe


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## John Zito (Sep 11, 2021)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> To answer your question, my own ranking is:
> 
> 1. Furtwängler
> 2. Klemperer
> ...


Are there any living conductors that you think come within spitting distance of those folks in the core Austro-German repertoire?


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## RogerWaters (Feb 13, 2017)

John Zito said:


> Are there any living conductors that you think come within spitting distance of those folks in the core Austro-German repertoire?


A month ago I would have said yes and shouted 'Haitink', but alas.

My only other contended is Blomstedt -but not for his most recent Beethoven efforts which are rather too HIPster for my liking. Anyway his oeuvre is not as complete, although he has recorded some Mozart symphonies, 2 Beethoven cycles, a Schubert symphony cycle, Brahms' four warhorses and some Bruckner symphonies.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

John Zito said:


> Are there any living conductors that you think come within spitting distance of those folks in the core Austro-German repertoire?


Barenboim.

I wish I could say Honeck.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

What I've heard of John Eliot Gardner with the ORR is worthy of praise, IMO.

https://monteverdi.co.uk/john-eliot-gardiner-on-the-beethoven-symphonies



> In May 2020, the Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique and John Eliot Gardiner should have been performing Beethoven's complete symphonies at the Barbican Hall in London. This cycle was part of an international tour celebrating both Beethoven's 250[SUP]th[/SUP] anniversary and the 30[SUP]th[/SUP] birthday of the ORR. We were lucky enough to be able to complete three cycles - in Barcelona, New York and Chicago - before the Covid-19 pandemic put a stop to all concerts.
> 
> To give you a flavour of this monumental project, we are releasing a nine-part series of films where John Eliot Gardiner will give his thoughts on Beethoven's musical mind, and the orchestra will be seen rehearsing the symphonies. Watch all films in the series now by clicking the links below:


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Too many to name - I've never been a huge fan of "Abner" [Jochum/Yokum]


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

RogerWaters said:


> The main problem I have with Furtwangler's recordings is the sound quality, not the interpretations anyway. They often sound very claustrophobic as well as being low-fi.


This doesn't prove he was a worse conductor than Jochum though.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Bruno Walter. Klemperer. 

Wolfgang Sawallisch and Gunter Wand are also very good.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Recently Norman Lebrecht referred to Jochum as a "dull" conductor. I wouldn't go that far, but he's not my favorite in this repertoire by any stretch. Bruno Walter, Karajan, Markevitch, Fricsay, Szell, Reiner, Wand were all more interesting than Jochum in my opinion.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

I'm split on Wand. His Bruckner is sublime, but his Beethoven & Brahms are dull. Same with Haitink.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

* Is there a better conductor of the great German composers than Eugen Jochum?!*
*_____________________________________________*

For a complete set of Bruckner Symphonies 1 to 9, perhaps not.


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

I'll tell you who else was under-rated in the german repertoire and that's Adrian Boult.
I have an EMI box called 'from Bach to Wagner' incl the 4 Brahms symphonies and some random others and it's uniformly excellent.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

There are few more consistently good conductors for the German repertoire. His DG sets of the Beethoven, Brahms, and Bruckner symphonies would do you no wrong if you only knew those versions. His Haydn London symphonies are second to none.

But he was even better in choral music. The Bach large works, the Missa Solemnis, Bruckner motets. 

I’ve never come across a Brahms German Requiem with Jochum, which is a terrible shame. He did an excellent Mozart Requiem, one of the best I’ve heard, unfortunately in poor sound, released by DG.

.


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## John Zito (Sep 11, 2021)

What do folks here think of Ádám Fischer's record in this repertoire? He did complete Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven cycles, then leap-frogged over the entire romantic period to Mahler. But even so, it's a lot of stuff in a time when people don't seem to be specializing in this music so much.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

In terms of the Austro-Germanic repertoire, Karajan cannot be beat, IMHO. Allow me to cite some examples of some Austro-Germanic composers I believe that HvK excelled in: Bruckner, Wagner, R. Strauss, Mahler, Brahms, Mendelssohn, Schumann, Beethoven and, for me, this would be enough to convince anyone who would put their biases aside and just listen to what this man has accomplished. He also did incredibly well in Russian and French repertoire, which is something that Jochum couldn't do. Also, HvK's Sibelius remains, for me, _the_ definitive interpretations (although only slightly ahead of Berglund and Vänskä).

And this is just a side note, but I have yet to encounter a better recording of Mascagni's _Cavalleria rusticana_ or Puccini's _Madame Butterfly_ and _Tosca_.


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## Radames (Feb 27, 2013)

Different conductors seem to have different strengths. I think Barenboim is a terribly dull and stodgy conductor but then I heard his Bruckner 5th and found he is excellent in Bruckner. Overall I will take Solti.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Sorry, nothing beats the Callas/De Sabata _Tosca_. Tastes vary, but this one is non-negotiable. 

No conductor can do it all well, but I agree Karajan came very close. His Bruckner and R. Strauss are non-pareil, save for Furtwangler, who left only intermittent live recordings.

Karajan's Beethoven was good but could have used more bite in general, a little less smoothness.

And his Mahler was too glossy for my taste. Mahler requires quite a bit of dynamism, while Bruckner can be done as one long meditative arc.

I posited once that you can divide Bruckner and Mahler conductors into two distinct categories with little overlap, and I think that's true. Karajan came close, mainly due to the superb live Mahler 9th he left us. But he was quite obviously more at home in Bruckner.

Bruckner conductors:

Furtwangler, Karajan, Jochum, Bohm, Wand, Haitink, Giulini, Knappertsbusch, Celibidache, Barenboim

Mahler conductors:

Klemperer, Walter, Barbirolli, Horenstein, Bernstein, Kubelik, Mitropoulos, Scherchen, Rattle, Abbado

.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

Karajan did have a specific style but his range was truly excellent. How many people could do Berg and Webern as well as Sibelius? Forget that- how many people were truly excellent at both Italian and German opera?

Out of all the big German conductors, he's the one where he'd still be an all-timer if you completely ignored his "Big 3" recordings.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

The idea that any one conductor is best for as wide a repertoire as German is fundamentally quite silly.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

John Zito said:


> What do folks here think of Ádám Fischer's record in this repertoire? He did complete Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven cycles, then leap-frogged over the entire romantic period to Mahler. But even so, it's a lot of stuff in a time when people don't seem to be specializing in this music so much.


I consider myself a Fischer a-fisch-ionado. His Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven cycles are each commendable in terms of energy and sound quality. He's sort of HIP-py in the tempii but with modern (non-screechy) instruments, which I like.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

fbjim said:


> Karajan did have a specific style but his range was truly excellent. How many people could do Berg and Webern as well as Sibelius? Forget that- how many people were truly excellent at both Italian and German opera?
> 
> Out of all the big German conductors, he's the one where he'd still be an all-timer if you completely ignored his "Big 3" recordings.


Yeah, he was generally at least average at everything (Mozart, Schubert), above average at most (Mendelssohn, Schumann, Haydn), and truly great in a good number of things (Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, Bruckner, Sibelius, Strauss, Brahms).

I could do without his Bach, though. I basically never listen to it and always opt for Pinnock/English Concert.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Becca said:


> The idea that any one conductor is best for as wide a repertoire as German is fundamentally quite silly.


Thank you for saying this!

In great music, it is not even slightly possible for any one person to have all of the answers.

And what is with this obsession with ranking? Is music a classroom, and we're comparing grades? Or ***** lengths? Can't we get past this?

(ETA: Talk Classical is censoring a perfectly ordinary, non-expletive, word for basic human anatomy? :lol: )


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

,..........................


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

MatthewWeflen said:


> Yeah, he was generally at least average at everything (Mozart, Schubert), above average at most (Mendelssohn, Schumann, Haydn), and truly great in a good number of things (Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, Bruckner, Sibelius, Strauss, Brahms).
> 
> I could do without his Bach, though. I basically never listen to it and always opt for Pinnock/English Concert.


Have you heard the Giulini/VPO Bruckner 9th yet? I also like the Karajan versions, but wonder what you might think of the Giulini. I was floored the first time I heard it.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Have you heard the Giulini/VPO Bruckner 9th yet? I also like the Karajan versions, but wonder what you might think of the Giulini. I was floored the first time I heard it.


I love the percussion! It's really well recorded overall. The tempo is just slightly slow for me, I'm used to a little bit harder driving. It's not aimless, though, and I could definitely get used to this percussion, though. I need to hear it in a CD-Quality version over my good headphones


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

MatthewWeflen said:


> I love the percussion! It's really well recorded overall. The tempo is just slightly slow for me, I'm used to a little bit harder driving. It's not aimless, though, and I could definitely get used to this percussion, though. I need to hear it in a CD-Quality version over my good headphones


It is slow, as is often the case with Giulini, but the climax to the final movement is pretty awesome. Karajan does well here too. I actually like his second version better because it has extra bite and better sound. My other favorite modern sound version is Wand/BPO.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Depends upon the work, work to work.


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## RogerWaters (Feb 13, 2017)

Becca said:


> The idea that any one conductor is best for as wide a repertoire as German is fundamentally quite silly.


Oh come on. If we must get technical (and apparently we must), the logical form of the question was: take the set of all conductors, which *one* is, overall, the best in the German repertoire. Said conductor does not need to be best for each individual composer.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

RogerWaters said:


> Oh come on. If we must get technical (and apparently we must), the logical form of the question was: take the set of all conductors, which *one* is, overall, the best in the German repertoire. Said conductor does not need to be best for each individual composer.


And qualitative, ranked lists have no place in the arts. You'll do better marginally with sports, but not music.


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## RogerWaters (Feb 13, 2017)

Knorf said:


> And qualitative, ranked lists have no place in the arts. You'll do better marginally with sports, but not music.


If you don't like the thread, there are plenty of others for you to knorf on.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

RogerWaters said:


> Oh come on. If we must get technical (and apparently we must), the logical form of the question was: take the set of all conductors, which *one* is, overall, the best in the German repertoire. Said conductor does not need to be best for each individual composer.


If we must use "best" (and apparently we must), then give us a rigorous, objective definition of "best" to use. And while you are at it, do we consider all composers in the said repertoire to be equivalent or do we give more weight to some? If so, which, and exactly how much?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Knorf said:


> And qualitative, ranked lists have no place in the arts. You'll do better marginally with sports, but not music.


O RLY? Are you _sure_ this is the attitude you've had in all matters regarding music and arts on this forum?


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

RogerWaters said:


> If you don't like the thread, there are plenty of others for you to knorf on.


Very true. I had hoped for some thoughtful, emergent discussion, not just dull rankings of artists as if they were race horses, but I should have known better. I'll take my leave.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Questions like this are just a way to spark discussion. Hopefully of a friendly sort. 

And what's wrong with race horses?


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## Aries (Nov 29, 2012)

I would say Karajan and Furtwängler are at the top. Karajan for sound mix and Furtwängler for interpretation.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

amfortas said:


> And what's wrong with race horses?


I suppose if you think composers and conductors have no more to offer than the equivalent of running around an oval track once in awhile, then... nothing.*

As for the OP, a conductor in my opinion who was consistently great in German repertoire but hasn't been mentioned here in Stanisław Skrowaczewski. Whether he's "better" than Jochum is debatable and utterly subjective, of course, but I do enjoy Stan's Beethoven, Bruckner, Schumann, and Brahms as much as recordings from anyone.

Ok, really going now.

*As marvels of selective breeding, race horses are extraordinary in their way, of course, and their achievements are eminently rankable. The ordering of a race finish is what they do, but not really what artists do.


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## Ned Low (Jul 29, 2020)

I love Jochum's Brahms and Schubert. His recordings of Brahms symphonies with London Philharmonic are a must have. But i honestly, though controversial it would be to say this, think he's the most overrated Brucknerian i've listened to. His 4ths and 6ths are flawless regarldless of the orchestras. But he never gets the 7th. He doesn't flow with the music and just tries to make the climaxes as loud and bombastic as possible. And not interfering with the flow, course, journey( call it Tao orwhatever you want) of this marvellous, lyrical and mysterious work is the most important duty a conductor has whilst performing it. However, you might contend that no conductor gets every Bruckner symphony right. Well, Gunter Wand does! The sets with Belrin and NDR are the only Bruckner cycles that i would pick if forced to.


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## Josquin13 (Nov 7, 2017)

Your OP reminds me of a question that I asked a composer friend (& teacher of composition) back in the mid-1980s, when I first began to collect classical music LPs. I asked him, "Can I do better than Eugen Jochum in Brahms & Beethoven?" He thought for a moment, & replied, "No."

Interestingly, he had known Jochum at Tanglewood in the 1960s, and told me that Jochum was "the nicest man I ever met who was a conductor." I've also heard this good opinion about Jochum reiterated by several musicians over the years, who had likewise worked with him at Tanglewood.

My friend additionally pointed out that when the conductor Karl Böhm had passed away in the midst of recording the Beethoven Piano Concertos 1-5 with pianist Maurizio Pollini, that Pollini had put a good deal of thought into his search to find Böhm's replacement to finish the cycle, before he ultimately chose Jochum. Personally, I would rate Jochum's recording with Pollini of the Piano Concerto No. 1 very highly: 



. In fact, I might even prefer it to Michelangeli/Giulini, who are likewise dazzling in this work. By the way, Jochum also made one of the finest recordings of Beethoven's Violin Concerto that I know, with violinist Wolfgang Schneiderhan: 



.

In addition, I should point out that the great Chilean pianist, Claudio Arrau, once said that Jochum was the only conductor he'd ever worked with over the course of his long career that had truly understood Beethoven's Piano Concerto No. 4. Considering that Beethoven's 4th was one of Arrau's specialties, & that he performed it many, many times, with scores of different conductors, his comment rules out or dismisses a lot of 20th century conductors that are highly regarded for their Beethoven conducting, including Otto Klemperer (& likely Furtwangler, too). I should add that Arrau had a reputation for taking greater pains with scores than most pianists, so for him to make such a comment carries a considerable amount of weight.

There does exist a live recording of Arrau & Jochum performing the 4th PC, but I've never heard or seen it. So, I'm doubtful that it was ever commercially released. But I'm not sure about that. (If anyone knows better, I'd be most grateful for any information that you can provide.) Fortunately, there are two other Jochum recordings of the 4th that are more easily obtainable, with pianists Edwin Fischer & Julius Katchen,

--Fischer/Jochum: 



--Katchen/Jochum (it's fascinating how much more imaginative Katchen's interpretation becomes here, under Jochum, than on his other recording of the 4th, with conductor Piero Gamba. Which isn't a bad recording, either, but apparently, Arrau knew what he was talking about,














By the way, another live recording of Beethoven's 3rd PC has recently been released by Doremi, with pianist Emil Gilels and Jochum conducting the Concertgebouw (which is a dream combination!): https://www.amazon.com/Emil-Gilels-...n+jochum+gilels&qid=1638314686&s=music&sr=1-4. IMO, Jochum's conducting here is more imaginative & certainly less stiff than George Szell's conducting with Gilels of the same concerto in Cleveland, & not surprisingly, Gilels responds accordingly, with some fantastic playing! (unlike with Szell, where he sounds more constricted):

--Gilels/Jochum:













--Gilels/Szell: 




I should also mention that when Jochum accepted the conducting post in Amsterdam with the Concertgebouw in the 1960s, he did so with an agreement put into his contract that he would teach Bernard Haitink and get him ready to lead the orchestra after his tenure. So, in effect, the young Haitink became Jochum's protégé.

Given their teacher-pupil relationship, interestingly, I've heard both conductors get spoken of as being "boring". I've even heard Jochum get dismissed as having been no more than a "Kappellmeister", which oddly enough, unlike in past ages, has become a derogatory term today.

Granted, with Haitink, while you do consistently get a solid, thoughtful performance that is scrupulously attentive to the score, I admit, you don't always get the most exciting performance. (Except for when Haitink was exciting--which I've noticed his detractors seldom seem to know about--such as on his live 1980 Beethoven 9th for Philips: 



, or his studio recording of Beethoven's 5th, which, IMO, is one of the finest 5ths of the digital era: 



, or his live incomplete Mahler cycle on Philips, which was made from a series of 'Christmas Matinee' concerts given at the Concertgebouw: 



, or his series of Bruckner 8ths, which apparently was a Haitink speciality: 



. On these recordings, Haitink is very exciting, IMO.)

On the other hand, with Jochum, I can't agree that he was a 'boring' conductor, or nothing more than a 'Kappellmeister'. Rather, over the decades, I've found that the depth of insight (& humanity, if you will) in Jochum's conducting tends to become more evident as you listen to his recordings more & more--especially his Brahms, Schubert, Orff, Beethoven, Bruckner, and his lesser known Wagner Tristan und Isolde, Lohengrin, & Parsifal,

--Lohengrin (here are two different releases of the same performance): 









--Tristan und Isolde:





--Parsifal:





--Beethoven, Missa Solemnis, Concertgebouw Orchestra of Amsterdam:





--Beethoven, Symphonies 6-9, London Symphony Orchestra:





So, it doesn't surprise me that some people don't hear those perceptions on their first or second listen. For me, Jochum has the same depth of musical insight that Furtwangler offers, but he's more classically restrained or not so wildly expressionistic, which I can prefer. At the very least, few, I expect, will disagree that they were both great Bruckner conductors, and here Jochum learned from Furtwangler, whom he greatly admired (EDIT: though I do agree that Jochum wasn't always at his best in the 7th). But, to those that find Jochum's Bruckner 9th with the extraordinary & incredibly 'in tune' Staatskapelle Dresden boring, all I can say is that you must not find Bruckner's 9th very interesting; because, from my experience, Jochum's Dresden performance is about as far from boring as it gets (& yes, Giulini's 9th in Vienna is my other favorite recording of this symphony, along with Furtwangler's on DG): 



. Moreover, I once had the good fortune of hearing Jochum conduct Bruckner's 9th live with the Philadelphia Orchestra back in the mid-1980s, and it was one of the most memorable concerts I've attended in my life (& not dissimilar to the following wonderful live 1983 Jochum performance in Munich, but with an even better orchestra in Philadelphia: 



).

One German composer that my notable friend didn't think Jochum was a top choice in was J.S. Bach. When I asked him if he could recommend a recording of Bach's Mass in B minor--& bear in mind, this was back in the mid-1980s, before all the period recordings had come out, he replied that he couldn't recommend a single recording in the catalogue, because none of the conductors on record knew how to conduct Bach's choral music "with an understanding of Baroque style". I recall asking him, "But what about Eugen Jochum?" "No", he replied, "Jochum's conducting style is all wrong for Bach." I continued to press him further, until he finally relented & recommended Peter Schreier's Eurodisc recording of the Mass in B minor in Leipzig (now on Berlin Classics), but he made sure to stress or rather emphasize that Schreier was the only conductor in the catalogue that knew how to conduct this music with an understanding of Baroque style: 



.

I'll tell one more personal story about Jochum (that I was told), which I find very interesting since I'm a long time Jochum fan: Towards the end of his life, when Jochum was apparently looking back over his career, he commented that out of all his recordings, he was "most proud" of his Schubert,

--'Unfinished' Symphony No. 8:









--Symphony No. 9 'The Great':

















--Symphony No. 9, live, 1986: 




--Symphony No. 5:

















--Symphony No. 4 'Tragic': 




Finally, by all accounts (that I've heard), not only was Jochum an exceptionally kind conductor (in an era of screaming tyrants), but he was also a highly intelligent man. Indeed, on the back cover of the old Concertgebouw Beethoven cycle LPs there was a brilliant but brief essay printed that Jochum had written on Beethoven--the man; which, to my mind, gets closer to the heart of who Beethoven was than most biographers have managed in many more pages. I'll reprint it here--from one of my old Philips LPs--for those that weren't around during the LP era, or have never read it (since, inexplicably, none of the CD box reissues have reprinted the essay; though I do recall that one British music critic complained about this oversight):

"What the New Testament is for Christians, Beethoven could be--and even is to a larger extent--for those who strive after the humanitarian ethos. Is it perhaps that the human being is the subject of all he has to say?

The human being who in Bach lived, believed, suffered, and died sheltered but also confined within the strictly defined bounds of Protestant Christian existence, humble, bound to a God in an objective order. The human being who in Mozart already enjoyed full freedom in the seraphic beauty of a perfect harmony, almost innocent, in spite of every refinement touching only in 'Don Giovanni' the dark substratum of the world, hubris and destruction, but in the confrontation of forces returning to the law.

But what is the human being in Beethoven? He is the entity entirely filled with consciousness of himself, the hazards of his existence, his suffering, his nobility, and his greatness. This man Beethoven, who was he?

Certainly no hero in the sense of the martial victor, no Achilles, radiant even in downfall, but a man pursued by the demons of his inmost being, seaching for freedom, greatness, and above all love. And all wrung under the most adverse circumstances from humiliation and misery, and in the unimaginable lonliness to which deafness condemned him, without ever the sound of a loving voice to break this barrier.*

As 'God gave him the power to say what he suffered,' he could only put all that white hot emotion, mute suffering, humiliation, and intimations of an ineffable sublimity into musical form. And so he transmuted in the forge of his suffering the human means of expression into musical form, relentlessly wrought into the most exact design. And then the miracle happens, that in this most pure, virile music all that stirs the heart of a human being is turned to speech; suffering, grief, lonliness, but also, and above all, the indescribable sweetness of consolation, happiness, dance, ecstasy carried to the bounds of mystical transport; from the Virgilian secular piety of the 'Pastoral' symphony and the 'Concalescent's hymn of thanks to the Godhead,' of the String Quartet Op. 132, to the visionary perception of a Father beyond the stars and the devotion of the 'Missa Solemnis.' The entire span of the human heart and spirit is in that work, perceptible, communicable. There is appeal and reassurance, the courage to shoulder one's own destiny in the faith in the indestructible, invincible dignity which makes human beings what they are.

That is Beethoven for me.

[*That he enjoyed a social position among the Viennese nobility which was exceptional for a musician of the day alters nothing. To him this position was a mere veneer, more or less arrogated, and at the same time despised. Nor was there solace in his many erotic episodes, none of which led to the marriage he so earnestly desired. They only deepen the shadows in the picture of this Goyaesque life.]"

What a remarkable man Jochum was.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Jochum was Roman catholic but conducted Bach's choral works frequently. He was one of the few conductors of his generation who was not mainly a choral conductor or "Bach specialist" (like Ristenpart or Werner) to record all 4 major Bach choral works (maybe some more than once). Unfortunately, the only one I have heard is the b minor mass from the 1980s, because I generally favor HIP approach, and it's been years, so I do not remember that much. It is very well sung and neither as old-fashioned as one might think nor does it show the age of the conductor. 
From what I have read about his other Bach they all seem very good choices for those preferring a larger ensemble and more traditional approach.


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## Josquin13 (Nov 7, 2017)

It should also be mentioned that Eugen Jochum was the first conductor to record the nine Bruckner Symphonies, for DG, in a box set. No one had done a cycle before him. He was also the first conductor to record Bruckner's complete Masses, for DG, as well. So, that gives Jochum the distinction of having been a pioneering Bruckner conductor and an early champion of Bruckner's music on record.

If I'm not mistaken, he was also the first conductor to record a number of Carl Orff's important works, such as Carmina Burana, Catulli Carmina, & Trionfo di Afrodite.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Hermann Abendroth, try his Bruckner 5 from Leipziz sometime.


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## hoodjem (Feb 23, 2019)

Short answer: no.

Jochum was wonderful.


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## hoodjem (Feb 23, 2019)

Phil loves classical said:


> Bruno Walter. Klemperer.
> 
> Wolfgang Sawallisch and Gunter Wand are also very good.


All of these conductors are very good, and Jochum.


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

Josquin13 said:


> It should also be mentioned that Eugen Jochum was the first conductor to record the nine Bruckner Symphonies, for DG, in a box set. No one had done a cycle before him.


It's actually the 2nd. The first complete Bruckner cycle (but without 0 and 00) was Andreae's 1953 mono cycle.
And Hans Rosbaud came very close to a complete cycle (1955-1962), only the 1st was left to be recorded when he died.



larold said:


> Hermann Abendroth, try his Bruckner 5 from Leipziz sometime.


Abendroth was amazing in Bruckner. His Leipzig 4th is great as well.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

RobertJTh said:


> It's actually the 2nd. The first complete Bruckner cycle (but without 0 and 00) was Andreae's 1953 mono cycle.
> And Hans Rosbaud came very close to a complete cycle (1955-1962), only the 1st was left to be recorded when he died.


Neither was published completely at that time or in the LP era, if I am not mistaken, only a few symphonies each. So they were not available to the public until quite recently and ForAllPracticalPurposes Jochum/DG was the first Bruckner cycle people could actually buy on LP in the 1960s


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Josquin13 said:


> What a remarkable man Jochum was.


Wow. Great post. It deserves a slow clap. 👏👏👏👏


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

If you've ever found Jochum a bit dull, this recording may change your mind. Live 1951 Beethoven 5th with the BPO. Available only on an out-of-print Tahra last I checked.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Ranking conductors , just like orchestras, solo instrumentalists and singers is. a vain and futile thing . But no question about it - Eugen Jochum was one of the greatest conductors of the 20th century - period . He left a wondrous legacy of so many recordings by Bach, Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms, Bruckner and other composers . It's hard to go wrong with any recording he made .


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

superhorn said:


> Ranking conductors , just like orchestras, solo instrumentalists and singers is. a vain and futile thing . But no question about it - Eugen Jochum was one of the greatest conductors of the 20th century - period . He left a wondrous legacy of so many recordings by Bach, Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms, Bruckner and other composers . It's hard to go wrong with any recording he made .


 Although I agree in great lines, same can be said about other conductors.


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## PeterKC (Dec 30, 2016)

He recorded when and what he wanted, so when the choice is there, Kleiber every time!


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

*"Is there a better conductor of the great German composers than Eugen Jochum?"
Yes!! many, many....too many to name....*


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I’ve never come across a Brahms German Requiem with Jochum, which is a terrible shame.


There's a 1951 Munich recording, available in a "Centenaire" box by Tahra.
But it's curious that he never (?) returned to it - it's a piece that should have fitted him like a glove.



Heck148 said:


> *"Is there a better conductor of the great German composers than Eugen Jochum?"
> Yes!! many, many....too many to name....*


And they all worked with American orchestras, I presume? 😋


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Heck148 said:


> *"Is there a better conductor of the great German composers than Eugen Jochum?"
> Yes!! many, many....too many to name....*


Bit harsh but then again maybe not. 😇


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

John Zito said:


> Are there any living conductors that you think come within spitting distance of those folks in the core Austro-German repertoire?



Manfred Honeck.


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## PeterKC (Dec 30, 2016)

haziz said:


> Manfred Honeck.


David Zinnman


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