# Highly contrapuntal symphonies/symphonic movements



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Counterpoint is not always a technique used in orchestral music, but there are some symphonic masterpieces out there that use contrapuntal techniques such as canon, fugato, and imitation to extremely successful effect. Some obvious examples that come to mind include Mozart's 41st, which features a huge fugal finale on several subjects, resulting in a satisfying conclusion to an excellent set of symphonies. On the other end of the spectrum of history, we have Webern's op.21 Symphony, which is structured around strict canonic devices and is almost wholly symmetrical in its counterpoint. 

Some other notably contrapuntal symphonies include Mahler's 5th and Bruckner's 5th. I'm sure Beethoven used counterpoint in his symphonies to powerful effect at some point, but I'm blanking on examples. 

Anyone else I'm missing? I think this is an interesting subject because the orchestral forces of many symphonies do not always lend themselves as easily to contrapuntal textures as do those of a string quartet.


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

Webern's Op. 1 - Passacaglia


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Vasks said:


> Webern's Op. 1 - Passacaglia


Good choice. Goes to show that even early on, counterpoint was something that Webern had always kept close to his heart. I'm going to listen to the Passacaglia as well as Im Sommerwind in a bit. With score in hand.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

The Passacaglia (final movement) in Brahms 4th, the fugue (3rd movement) in Ives 4th, and the fugue in Bartok's Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta come to mind.

Mendelssohn's String Symphonies are perhaps some of the most overtly contrapuntal sounding works I can think of.


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

The Rondo-Burleske of Mahler's 9th is a contrapuntal labyrinth. Seeing it performed live a few weeks ago was unbelievable. Here's a video by the YouTuber, Richard Atkinson, where he analyzes some aspects of it: 





Two of the most intense symphonic fugues I know come from Shostakovich's 4th Symphony, in the mammoth first movement, and the 5th symphony of Carl Nielsen, in the second movement (a fugue that Atkinson coincidentally covers in a video as well.)


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

There's always Micheal Haydn, who, in a sense, invented the fugal symphonic finale. Joseph wrote contrapuntal finales earlier, but it was Micheal's Symphonies that led to Mozart's great fugal finales.


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## CrunchyFr0g (Jun 11, 2019)

Tippett's 1st symphony has as its finale a double fugue where the subjects are very different but he manages to bring them together.


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## Josquin13 (Nov 7, 2017)

For some reason, symphonic composers tend to become increasingly contrapuntal in their later years--Mozart, Mahler, Schubert, etc. A prime example is the 4th movement from Robert Schumann's 3rd Symphony (which was actually his final symphony), sometimes called the "chorale" or "Cathedral" movement:






But there's a lot of Bach influence elsewhere in Schumann's symphonies, too, it's not just in the 3rd. I hear Bach-like textures in Schumann's 2nd as well, for instance: 



.

Another good example is Brahms "Variations on a Theme by Haydn", & especially the finale, where towards the end, the flutes seem to almost come out of another dimension--it's so brilliantly multi-directional, and shouldn't work but it does! For me, that's one of the finest movements Brahms ever composed:






And yet, very few composers' counterpoint, if any, can compare to the complex fugal writing in the opening movement of Bach's Cantata BWV 19, etc.:


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

It seems to me that the Vaughan Williams Fourth Symphony makes use of a fugue based on the notes of Bach's name. And of course there is the magnificent first movement of Gorecki's Third which when analyzed from the score proves astounding in its canonic complexity, and yet which seems so sublimely simple upon listening.

There are many many examples.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

As per CrunchyFr0g above, in fact any symphony by Tippett - counterpoint was in his blood.


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