# Music in quarter-tones and other micro-tonal systems



## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

I am no newbie to music that uses tuning systems (or just pitch collections, no real system) outside of the very standard Western, 12-tone equal-tempered system, but I have recently become enamored with, among other things, the music of composer Alois Haba, and the idea of the 24-tone system (as well as 36-tone and other systems).






There's something really enchanting and gorgeous in Haba's use of this expanded system. Its so natural. Its as if he'd been born in a world where 24 was the standard number of notes in our chromatic scale. That isn't to say Haba is the only person to explore these things. Ligeti and Ives both used quarter tones beautifully in pieces, and there are of course the unique tuning systems of Harry Partch, and the explorations of older systems by composers like Lou Harrison and La Monte Young. But it just seems like there's so many untapped possibilities.

I feel like microtones are a realm that still hasn't been especially explored. I had a private discussion on the subject with Crudblud, and he brought up the technological limitations, that the instruments are difficult to make and expensive as the primary culprit in this medium being so heavily underexplored, and I agree. Still, as we have seen such a great increase in the capabilities of electronic music technology, there are greater oppurtunities and resources for creating this kind of music. I'm very much interested in exploring this as a composer. I mean, just think of the possibilities for harmony? I mean, harmony in just 12 tones (or even in smaller sets) seems almost endless in possibilities! Think of how many harmonies are possible, to say nothing of the melodic possibilities.

What do you all think?


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

I'm more interested in the use of microtones as a way to expand the kind of sound textures you can have. You can see this kind of thinking in Ligeti's micro-polyphonic pieces and also in the spectralists. This is exactly what I like: *Haas*' _limited approximations_, for six microtonally tuned pianos and orchestra.
The use of microtones for making new and long scales, to compose melodies in those scales, etc., (like Partch, for example) does not interest me very much right now, since it's more of the same ultra Western thing, the only thing is that you have more notes . *
I used a lot of microtones in the second movement of my piano concerto piece and I like the result, i.e., it worked pretty much as I expected.

*I'm exaggerating, of course; gamelan music works in this way, for instance.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Easley Blackwood is an acknowledged master of microtonal composition and performance. He also has the definitive performance of Ive's Concord Piano Sonata (which I love!!)

Sample "Microtonal" on Amazon to see if you like it.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

It always seems to me that if that 7th note of a scale wants to lead back to the 8th (root), then wouldn't the 7.5th, or whatever it is called, lead even more so? I've been looking for microtonal music that tries to explore voice leading. Looks like Haba might be it! I'm curious how he gets the quarter steps out of a piano. Is it two pianos?


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

aleazk said:


> I'm more interested in the use of microtones as a way to expand the kind of sound textures you can have. You can see this kind of thinking in Ligeti's micro-polyphonic pieces and also in the spectralists. This is exactly what I like: *Haas*' _limited approximations_, for six microtonally tuned pianos and orchestra.
> The use of microtones for making new and long scales, to compose melodies in those scales, etc., (like Partch, for example) does not interest me very much right now, since it's more of the same ultra Western thing, the only thing is that you have more notes . *
> I used a lot of microtones in the second movement of my piano concerto piece and I like the result, i.e., it worked pretty much as I expected.
> 
> *I'm exaggerating, of course; gamelan music works in this way, for instance.


Well it seems we're primarily interested in the same possibility, that being of harmony. I just tend to gravitate to works with activity and direction over texture alone.

In your concerto how did you approach micro-tones? Is it in some theoretical way, or an intuitive way?


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Weston said:


> It always seems to me that if that 7th note of a scale wants to lead back to the 8th (root), then wouldn't the 7.5th, or whatever it is called, lead even more so? I've been looking for microtonal music that tries to explore voice leading. Looks like Haba might be it! I'm curious how he gets the quarter steps out of a piano. Is it two pianos?


I know right?!  Thats what interested me in his music. While some quarter-tone music approaches these new pitches as more like odd chromatic ornamentations, Haba uses them as just natural harmonic components. As far as instrument, I'm pretty sure he wrote this for a specially built quarter-tone piano. He had various instruments commissioned that played quarter-tones, sixth-tones, and other smaller divisions of the octave.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

I'm more curious if any composer has thought of doing irrational fractions of tones, rather than just quarter tones. Why not make a scale that has 10 pitches in the octave? or 14? I would be very curious what this sound like, when you no longer had "semi-tones" anymore.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> I'm more curious if any composer has thought of doing irrational fractions of tones, rather than just quarter tones. Why not make a scale that has 10 pitches in the octave? or 14? I would be very curious what this sound like, when you no longer had "semi-tones" anymore.


Gamelan music is tuned to something like 6-ET, I think...


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Mahlerian said:


> Gamelan music is tuned to something like 6-ET, I think...


I like Debussy's aesthetic; Berlioz's aesthetic; Bernard Herrmann's aesthetic: know musical rules, but break them intelligently in the interests of sound. Never be beholden to an arid formula.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Mahlerian said:


> Gamelan music is tuned to something like 6-ET, I think...


There are several scales in gamelan music, the most popular being _pelog_ and _slendro_, but the exact tunings differ from one gamelan to another, and as far as I'm aware none of the traditional tunings are in equal temperament.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Easley Blackwood has been mentioned.
16 notes Andantino




18 notes Allegro Volando





One listen, and look at the scores, and I was 'done,' thinking of it, as Elliott Carter said of 12-tone serialism when he looked into it, that it is not very interesting because what was done with it is "All that old Brahms stuff."

But that is Blackwood's handling of microtonality, which is not the only possibility.

I tend to more agree in taste with Aleazk here, that as used in conjunction with the 12 chromatic steps it has greater possibilities, and those not just mere colorism, but a strong element as part of the mix of materials in a piece.

I think, that very few people are going to have 'the ear' to want to follow music using 'scales' of 24 pitches, etc, as basis for 'new harmony' which, ala the Blackwood, is just going to move around in configurations and voicing so closely similar to "that old Brahms stuff."

To say it for the umpteenth time, I'm old school conservative. Investigating alternate tunings is fun, and can lead you to some seriously interesting and good music, while I believe your reason for 'going there' should have a reason, i.e. your ideas for what is necessary for a piece have led you there.

(Of course you, Burning Desire, are in school, which is the perfect time and place to survey and explore it all


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Crudblud said:


> There are several scales in gamelan music, the most popular being _pelog_ and _slendro_, but the exact tunings differ from one gamelan to another, and as far as I'm aware none of the traditional tunings are in equal temperament.


The instruments are also used in pairs, and their parts are played in unison with each other. Those pairs of instruments, one instrument to the next, are tuned several cents apart; that slight difference of beats between the two instruments is what gives Gamelan tones their characteristic oscillation, shimmer.


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## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

In the medieval ages Persia, there was a mother scale divided into 17 tones in a very very complex division method (using Pythagorean comma and limma intervals), which was formed by Safieddin Ormavi (13th. cent.). he also suggested a kind of 'Temperament' in order to make intervals more accessible in practical music, an idea which was not followed by his contemporaries... In the classical traditional music of my country, still many forms of microtones are used in various scales we use to call each of them a Dastgāh.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Interesting to note that the harmonic overtone series has those "in between" pitches as well, there are some cool uses of this in the horn part of Adès's "Living Toys;" the horn is required to play as if it were a natural horn, using the equivalent on a modern valved horn of what a crook would be on a natural horn.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> I'm more curious if any composer has thought of doing irrational fractions of tones, rather than just quarter tones. Why not make a scale that has 10 pitches in the octave? or 14? I would be very curious what this sound like, when you no longer had "semi-tones" anymore.


Maurice Ohana used the third of the tone in some of his pieces.





And then there's Ivor Darreg who called what you're looking for "xenharmonic music"







BurningDesire said:


> I feel like microtones are a realm that still hasn't been especially explored. I had a private discussion on the subject with Crudblud, and he brought up the technological limitations, that the instruments are difficult to make and expensive as the primary culprit in this medium being so heavily underexplored, and I agree. Still, as we have seen such a great increase in the capabilities of electronic music technology, there are greater oppurtunities and resources for creating this kind of music. I'm very much interested in exploring this as a composer. I mean, just think of the possibilities for harmony? I mean, harmony in just 12 tones (or even in smaller sets) seems almost endless in possibilities! Think of how many harmonies are possible, to say nothing of the melodic possibilities.
> 
> What do you all think?


I said exactly the same thing not so long ago.
Someone then suggested to me the album of electronic music of Wendy Carlos "The beauty in the beast". Carlos in it uses a lot of different weird tunings never used before and he does things that are impossible for the acoustic instruments. Truly a great find for me, and probably something you (Burning desire and Huilunsoittaja) should listen to if you don't know it already, because it goes exactly in that direction.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Ivan Wyschnegradsky: 24 Preludes in quarter-tone system


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

BurningDesire said:


> Well it seems we're primarily interested in the same possibility, that being of harmony. I just tend to gravitate to works with activity and direction over texture alone.
> 
> In your concerto how did you approach micro-tones? Is it in some theoretical way, or an intuitive way?


Well, intuitive I would say. I used micro-tones in order to make the lines "fuzzy".

For example, I divided the cellos in two groups, and often one group plays a sustained note while the other plays also that note but a quarter tone apart. What you hear is a cello line which sounds somewhat "unstable" (because of the beat frequency), and that creates a dramatic effect. That's the kind of things I was looking for.

That kind of effect is only achievable with micro-tones. If you use instead the smallest interval you have in the standard chromatic scale, the semitone, you don't get that effect. So, by using micro-tones, you can expand the kind of textures available.

For this, I don't even need precise quarter tones, and the cellos are just asked to play some of their notes slightly "out of tune" when necessary. Or maybe using scordatura.


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## Sudonim (Feb 28, 2013)

Microtonal jazz!


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> I'm more curious if any composer has thought of doing irrational fractions of tones, rather than just quarter tones. Why not make a scale that has 10 pitches in the octave? or 14? I would be very curious what this sound like, when you no longer had "semi-tones" anymore.


N.B. the above Easley Blackwood links.


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## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> I'm more curious if any composer has thought of doing irrational fractions of tones, rather than just quarter tones. Why not make a scale that has 10 pitches in the octave? or 14? I would be very curious what this sound like, when you no longer had "semi-tones" anymore.


Well this is somehow what the traditional music of Persia is doing: It is generally based on various sequences of intervals, not any definition of scale or octave concept. For example one of the most frequently performed Dastgāh(es) called Shur, begins with A, a B-type in microtone (which still has no fixed standard pitch), C and D. Many scholars yet have added E - F - G and A above on the paper in order to gain an Octave according to what we have in western music, but actually these additional notes are never used by any singer or instrumentalist. So if you wanna make any progression, you'll need to go a perfect forth higher (instead of the western perfect fifth) and thus we'll have D - an E-type in microtone - F and G.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

aleazk said:


> Well, intuitive I would say. I used micro-tones in order to make the lines "fuzzy".
> 
> For example, I divided the cellos in two groups, and often one group plays a sustained note while the other plays also that note but a quarter tone apart. What you hear is a cello line which sounds somewhat "unstable" (because of the beat frequency), and that creates a dramatic effect. That's the kind of things I was looking for.
> 
> ...


So similarly to honky-tonk piano tuning, or tremolo harmonicas and de-tuned synths.

I'm more interested in specific pitches :3 like what kinda new chords we can build, how they can function in this new environment of 24, or more, pitches.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

BurningDesire said:


> So similarly to honky-tonk piano tuning, or tremolo harmonicas and de-tuned synths.
> 
> I'm more interested in specific pitches :3 like what kinda new chords we can build, how they can function in this new environment of 24, or more, pitches.


You mean like in Ives's quarter-tone pieces for two pianos?


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## Schubussy (Nov 2, 2012)

Death to equal temperament!


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

I can't find a recording of it on youtube, but one of my favorite examples of micro-tonal writing is Per Norgard's 5th string quartet. About the first 3/4ths of the quartet is written within the space of a minor third, using microtones. It's amazing the variety he gets out of such a small space. I had to go check on the piano at certain points to check for myself if it was actually still within a minor third because it sounded so expansive.

The specific minor third is Bb to Db if anyone listening to this quartet wants to check.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Any equal division of the octave, into equally-pitch-spaced parts, is known as an "equal temperament." The could be any division of the octave; into 12, 10, etc. The Thai scale is an ET 7 scale; seven equal parts. Because our diatonic scale has 7 notes, the Thai scale sounds oddly diatonic and familiar. Of course, they are different; our 7-note diatonic scale is derived from a 12-note division, so its scale-steps are not equivalent.
Something worth noting about these larger-number equal-tempered scales. Harry Partch used a 54-note division in order to get as close as possible to "just" intervals. It wasn't that he wanted the micro-divisions for their own sake.
I'm no expert on Arabic scales, but they have a 17-note octave because they kept on projecting 3:2s past 12, where we stopped. Likewise, the Chinese stopped at "5" for their pentatonic scale, instead of proceeding on to 12. What Pythagoras did, in "projecting" his 3:2 fifths, was common to other cultures as well.
And from what I understand about the 17-note Arabic scale, they have this so they can, like Partch, come closer to attaining certain desired intervals, not for the microtonal steps in themselves. In this way, several smaller-numbered scales are built, using the 17-note divisions, to create "modes" or different scale genuses from this "index" of 17 notes. This is similar to the way we have diatonic scales as our basic scale, which are derived from the 12-note "index.".........................llllllllllll


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

aleazk said:


> I'm more interested in the use of microtones as a way to expand the kind of sound textures you can have. You can see this kind of thinking in Ligeti's micro-polyphonic pieces and also in the spectralists. This is exactly what I like: *Haas*' _limited approximations_, for six microtonally tuned pianos and orchestra.
> The use of microtones for making new and long scales, to compose melodies in those scales, etc., (like Partch, for example) does not interest me very much right now, since it's more of the same ultra Western thing, the only thing is that you have more notes . *
> I used a lot of microtones in the second movement of my piano concerto piece and I like the result, i.e., it worked pretty much as I expected.
> 
> *I'm exaggerating, of course; gamelan music works in this way, for instance.





PetrB said:


> Easley Blackwood has been mentioned.
> 16 notes Andantino
> 
> 
> ...


I was listening to the etudes of Blackwood and reading again this discussion I really wonder how it's possible to see this music as just as "ultra western thing"or that having endless harmonic new possibilities is "old brahms stuff" and doing stuff with the usual twelve tones should be instead something more modern. 
I mean, I thought that the ultra western thing was the equal temperament with twelve tones. And I think also that using microtones just as textures is pointless, for that is way more effective to use noise. Microtones are for those interested in harmonic experiments.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

norman bates said:


> I was listening to the etudes of Blackwood and reading again this discussion I really wonder how it's possible to see this music as just as "ultra western thing"or that having endless harmonic new possibilities is "old brahms stuff" and doing stuff with the usual twelve tones should be instead something more modern.
> I mean, I thought that the ultra western thing was the equal temperament with twelve tones. And I think also that using microtones just as textures is pointless, for that is way more effective to use noise. Microtones are for those interested in harmonic experiments.


I find Blackwood's gestural language utterly dull and uninteresting. Add microtones to that and sounds like bad quality old stuff played on a detuned piano. As PetrB said "One listen, and look at the scores, and I was 'done,'"... which is the worst thing you can say about a piece. Perhaps better examples would convince me.

Noise is difficult to control. Microtones can be placed carefully and once you become accustomed to the results, you can handle them with confidence. You may think is pointless, Ligeti, Grisey, Haas, etc., thought otherwise. Also, is not about "just texture", but the soundworld. I find any of those composers utterly superior to Blackwood, and more modern in their thinking.

In any case, you can use microtones for new harmonic experiments in a way that also encompass what I was saying and without falling in something similar to Blackwood. Ligeti's Hamburg Concerto, for example.


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## Majed Al Shamsi (Feb 4, 2014)

Eastern musical systems, especially the Arabic maqam, very often, if not always, have scales which include quarter tones.

I'd say the main disadvantage of using scales with quarter notes is that they almost always sound sad, like the Western minor scale. A different kind of sad, but sad nonetheless.

The advantage, however, is that, so far, these scales have been used mostly for melodic purposes. So, the harmonic side of it (as far as I know) is yet to be explored!

Quarter notes can be played on many instruments, such as the violin, the fretless guitar, the oud, and, according to Wikipedia, "wind instruments whose main means of tone-control is a slide, such as trombones, the tromboon, and slide whistles."

I believe oriental keyboards can also be set to play using keys from certain quarter-notes-including scales.


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## Guest (Jun 23, 2014)

Majed Al Shamsi said:


> I'd say the main disadvantage of using scales with quarter notes is that they almost always sound sad, like the Western minor scale. A different kind of sad, but sad nonetheless.


Well, since neither quarter tone music nor music with minor scales sounds sad, what disadvantages are left? (The fictitious "sad" being identified as the "main" disadvantage.)


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

aleazk said:


> I find Blackwood's gestural language utterly dull and uninteresting. Add microtones to that and sounds like bad quality old stuff played on a detuned piano.


old stuff played on totally different systems? How is it possible, when the harmonies hare clearly completely different, with new harmonic relations?
And it must be said also that for those accostumed to other non western systems our equal temperament sounds detuned.



aleazk said:


> Noise is difficult to control. Microtones can be placed carefully and once you become accustomed to the results, you can handle them with confidence. You may think is pointless, Ligeti, Grisey, Haas, etc., thought otherwise. Also, is not about "just texture", but the soundworld. I find any of those composers utterly superior to Blackwood, and more modern in their thinking.


Well, different reactions I guess. I thought that spectralism was cool but I've never been impressed by the pieces of Grisey I've heard (I love Scelsi, who someone consider an inspiration for many spectralists but that's another story). But I knew also that spectralism was about the natural qualities of sound, and the noise music I know has a completely different approach.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

some guy said:


> Well, since neither quarter tone music nor music with minor scales sounds sad, what disadvantages are left? (The fictitious "sad" being identified as the "main" disadvantage.)


majed, don't consider some guy: we have discussed this many times and I've posted scientific articles (from Scientific american and stuff like that: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2010/06/17/music-and-speech-share-a-code-for-c-2010-06-17/) to demonstrate that there's a correlation between the third minor and sadness, but he ignores it deliberately.


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

I'm interested in 17 or 19tet music, having read an article about its potential applications in contemporary music. Are there any examples? I am woefully ignorant of traditions that employ such temperaments.


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## Majed Al Shamsi (Feb 4, 2014)

some guy said:


> Well, since neither quarter tone music nor music with minor scales sounds sad, what disadvantages are left? (The fictitious "sad" being identified as the "main" disadvantage.)


Do excuse my vocabulary, then.
What would you call these?



norman bates said:


> majed, don't consider some guy: we have discussed this many times and I've posted scientific articles (from Scientific american and stuff like that: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2010/06/17/music-and-speech-share-a-code-for-c-2010-06-17/) to demonstrate that there's a correlation between the third minor and sadness, but he ignores it deliberately.


Ah, I see. I didn't know there was a debate on the topic.
I shall look into it.


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## Whistler Fred (Feb 6, 2014)

I recall comments made by Lejaren Hiller, in connection with his 5th String Quartet, that there were two types of microtonal music. His quartet is written in quarter tones, attempting to expand both the harmonic and melodic possibilities of using a 24 note scale. Other, like Penderecki and Ligeti used quarter tones to create harmonic tension or color. 

The other type that Hiller identified was based on a tuning closer to the harmonic series, which was compromised under an even temperament. Henry Partch and Ben Johnson are among those who experimented with the "pure" intonation in the 20th Century, but to a large extent that has been an issue with music since the Baroque (and likely even before that). Bach's Well-Temper Clavier was among attempts to reconcile the natural overtone series with the possibilities of an expanded chromatic language possible on keyboard instruments.

By the way, Bach, in all likelihood, did not use an even temperament. Exactly what sort of tuning he had in mind is a matter still in dispute. One approach was used by Peter Watchorn in his recording for Musica Omnia, and is well worth checking out, both for the quality of the music making and the well-reasoned argument for the particular tuning used (and explained in the booklet notes).

And, as a final note, with non-keyboard instruments, it is common, and almost instinctive, to adjust the intonation to match the overtone series, if for no other reason than because it sounds more closely in tune. The differences are subtle and probably largely unnoticed, but they are there. So in that sense, microtonal music has been around for quite some time.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

norman bates said:


> old stuff played on totally different systems? How is it possible, when the harmonies hare clearly completely different, with new harmonic relations?
> And it must be said also that for those accostumed to other non western systems our equal temperament sounds detuned.


As I said, the problem is in the voicing and musical gestures, which are old fashioned. It really kills for me any kind of innovation related to these "new harmonic relations", since the net result is akin to an old piece played on a detuned piano, rather than something new. My critique in this sense is then on the side of stylistic inconsistency: I think the music simply does not work.

To give you more examples, sometimes I have the same feeling with Schoenberg; to me (sometimes, not always!) it sounds like 12-tone Mozart (I'm talking about the musical gestures). And that's why I said many times that I tend to prefer the Webern lineage of 12-tone music (Boulez, Stravinsky, etc.), since, as Boulez said, I think his gestural language is the most natural in the context of the soundworld implied by the 12-tone method.

Of course, these are just my perceptions, as I have been saying since my first post in this thread.

In the case of non-western music using microtonal systems I don't have this problem, since the gestures are also new and consistent with the style. It sounds fresh and new to me as a whole.



norman bates said:


> Well, different reactions I guess. I thought that spectralism was cool but I've never been impressed by the pieces of Grisey I've heard (I love Scelsi, who someone consider an inspiration for many spectralists but that's another story). But I knew also that spectralism was about the natural qualities of sound, and the noise music I know has a completely different approach.


Well, we evidently have divergent tastes and opinions. C'est la vie!

Anyway, I love Scelsi too: 



 out of this world.


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## Whistler Fred (Feb 6, 2014)

Whistler Fred said:


> I recall comments made by Lejaren Hiller, in connection with his 5th String Quartet, that there were two types of microtonal music. His quartet is written in quarter tones, attempting to expand both the harmonic and melodic possibilities of using a 24 note scale. Other, like Penderecki and Ligeti used quarter tones to create harmonic tension or color.
> 
> The other type that Hiller identified was based on a tuning closer to the harmonic series, which was compromised under an even temperament. Henry Partch and Ben Johnson are among those who experimented with the "pure" intonation in the 20th Century, but to a large extent that has been an issue with music since the Baroque (and likely even before that). Bach's Well-Temper Clavier was among attempts to reconcile the natural overtone series with the possibilities of an expanded chromatic language possible on keyboard instruments.
> 
> ...


I meant HARRY Partch and Ben JOHNSTON! Never post before coffee!


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Weston said:


> It always seems to me that if that 7th note of a scale wants to lead back to the 8th (root), then wouldn't the 7.5th, or whatever it is called, lead even more so? I've been looking for microtonal music that tries to explore voice leading. Looks like Haba might be it! I'm curious how he gets the quarter steps out of a piano. Is it two pianos?


And wouldn't the 6.7. or whatever it is called, be more at rest and not want to resolve to V?

There is an acoustically-based flat seventh, called a septimal seventh, which, like all acoustically 'pure' intervals, is a small number ratio, in this case 7:4.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_seventh

It is my contention that this harmonic seventh was used in African music, in the pentatonic scale, and found its way into blues and jazz. Thus, the blues & jazz convention of using I7, IV7, and V7 chords (sevenths on every chord) can be justified, since the harmonic seventh is 'at rest' and can be used as a I and IV chord without the Western need to resolve to a chord a fifth away, as in V7-I.

Of course, this only survives as a harmonic artifact, since pianos and equal temperament were the norm.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

A quarter tone is a pitch halfway between the usual notes of a chromatic scale, an interval about half as wide (aurally, or logarithmically) as a semitone, which is half a whole tone. Many composers are known for having written music including quarter tones or the quarter tone scale (24 equal temperament).

To me, the only reason other equal-tempered tunings are useful, such as 19, 23, 31, 34, and 43-tone, is to approximate 'just' intervals. Ives loved dissonance so much that he might have used the 'quarter-tone' tunings for their sheer dissonance, but if you think about it, two pianos tuned a quarter-tone apart amounts to 24-tone ET.

Thus, as you listen to the Ives piece, note the differences: he exploits this tuning for its dissonance as well as its ability to approximate 'super-consonant' just intervals.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Jobis said:


> I'm interested in 17 or 19tet music, having read an article about its potential applications in contemporary music. Are there any examples? I am woefully ignorant of traditions that employ such temperaments.


I'd have to do research to answer that, but I have used both 17 and 19-tone ET in my own music. I did this by changing the keyboard voltage in my Ensoniq ESQ-1 synthesizer.

It's accessible; you simply go into the voice edit, and retune your octave so that when you play C, and the next f out of the octave past C, you get a C-f octave. This is 17-tone ET.

Likewise, to get 19-tone ET, simply tune C-g to an octave.

The Thai system is 7-tone ET, which is weird, because it starts sounding like a 7-tone diatonic scale after a while.

The Arabs went past Pythagoras, past 12, up to 17-tones per octave. The important thing to remember is that they don't use all 17 tones at once; they derive scales from them, in order to get certain more 'in tune' intervals, just like I mentioned in my previous post. In order to understand these, you'd have to start getting in to the particulars of Arabic music, and all the modes they use.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

aleazk said:


> As I said, the problem is in the voicing and musical gestures, which are old fashioned. It really kills for me any kind of innovation related to these "new harmonic relations", since the net result is akin to an old piece played on a detuned piano, rather than something new. My critique in this sense is then on the side of stylistic inconsistency: I think the music simply does not work.


but if you use microtones it's clear that you have to use in a tonal way (I'm not sure if it's what you're saying). Because those microtones are "structural elements" and it has little sense to use it as just ornaments. So I totally understand why he's trying to produce counterpoint. And gestures So to me it's obvious that Blackwood in the etudes is looking to the tradition (and he wanted probably produce something Bach's wtc), but to me it's also obvious that the results are clearly absolutely different. I mean





this doesn't sounds like Brahms or any other tonal composer.



aleazk said:


> To give you more examples, sometimes I have the same feeling with Schoenberg; to me (sometimes, not always!) it sounds like 12-tone Mozart (I'm talking about the musical gestures). And that's why I said many times that I tend to prefer the Webern lineage of 12-tone music (Boulez, Stravinsky, etc.), since, as Boulez said, I think his gestural language is the most natural in the context of the soundworld implied by the 12-tone method.
> 
> Of course, these are just my perceptions, as I have been saying since my first post in this thread.
> 
> In the case of non-western music using microtonal systems I don't have this problem, since the gestures are also new and consistent with the style. It sounds fresh and new to me as a whole.


I doubt that Maqam or the indian music or Gamelan etc are something new. 
From my ignorant point of view, if I have to make a criticism, I wonder why he's using only equal (even if completely novel) temperaments. But I guess that there are so many unknown possibilities that it's impossible to pretend a complete understanding of what can be done with microtonality, after all Blackwood is just a pioneer.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)




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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

I've been reading around on this topic a little bit recently. From what I've read, it seems 24 tone equal temperament is not a very rational tuning, (low-number ratios don't fit it particularly well), 22 tet is actually a safer bet. If you want really good intervals, 53 tet is about as good as it gets without a ridiculous number of tones per octave. 31 tet is a very good compromise though.

Why low number ratios though? They're a true musical universal; we just respond to them better. Obviously we cannot limit the use of harmony to say, fifths and octaves, as in medieval organum, but the principle of simple ratios producing greater consonances always applies. They also 'beat' less; the partials of a fundamental tone and a pure fifth tone overlap to produce a clear sound, whereas in a detuned fifth they phase and wobble out of sync. Apply that phase and wobble to all of our intervals in equal temperament and you understand how it is viewed as a compromise. 

I think contemporary music, in order to really explore microtonality, will have to shift away from keyboard oriented works, since its clearly apparent that a 53 note keyboard would be pretty impractical; were it laid out in one line, you'd have difficulty playing a major chord cause of how hard it would be to reach across all the inbetween-notes. Plus of the keyboards that have been built to spec; 31tet organs for example, because of the complexity of their construction, have settled for such simple tones (akin to sine tones) that temperaments other than 12tet sound really jarring, in a way that microtonality doesn't jar in say, sitar music, where the tones are rich in partials and the techniques involve a lot of sliding and slurring. 

The better bet I think would be to employ 'polymicrotonality', which is instruments of different intonations and tunings playing together, filling in intonation gaps for each other and creating subtler, purer and more dissonant intervals.

Also important to explore is music that avoids diatonic scales and chords (the do re mi scale), in favour of others. The Greeks, for example, had a great deal of variation in their systems of scales, as do modern Indian cultures. 

Perhaps the simplest solution to the woes (or joys, depending on your perspective) of intonation is to write mono-tonal music, which doesn't modulate like western classical; which, contrary to popular belief, does not have to be 'boring'. Another alternative is purely monophonic music, which need only have suggestions of harmonies, and the occasional sounding of several notes simultaneously, but not in a progressions of chords (let alone triads, let alone common practice tonality!). 

12 tone music, before equal temperament, produced our system of common practice tonality; they were 'made for' each other. Now that we are beyond that stage, it seems other doorways are opening up. Serialism, in a sense, pushed 12tet to its logical limits; and while it still has potential (when we look at any number of current composers using it), to cling on to it for dear life is a reactionary move.


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## tortkis (Jul 13, 2013)

Jobis said:


> I'm interested in 17 or 19tet music, having read an article about its potential applications in contemporary music. Are there any examples? I am woefully ignorant of traditions that employ such temperaments.


I think these works of Aaron Andrew Hunt are interesting.
Two-Part Invention in 17ET
Prelude in 19ET

_The Equal Tempered Keyboard, Book 1_ is a collection of music in 7ET ~ 20ET. The compositions are rather conventional (melodious), so I guess it may be easier to hear the characteristic differences between temperaments. Some sounds exotic/weird, some sounds natural and quite beautiful.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Seek out the compositions of Easley Blackwood for microtonal works.
He also has for me, the definitive interpretation of Ives' Concord Piano Sonata.
What a terrific all-arround musician!


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