# The Sonatas of Schubert and Beethoven



## arnerich (Aug 19, 2016)

I was listening to Schubert's last three sonatas and I must say the music is wonderful. Always amiable and thoughtful. I've heard people give high praise to these works. Many say they sound angelic and are a bridge between heaven and earth. There has also been a great deal of scholarly research that dissects these works and show the motivic and harmonic unity between them. That's all great and I don't disagree with the praise or research these works have received. 

But a thought came to me that I simply had to acknowledge. As much as I like them I don't think any of these late Schubert sonatas can compare to the late sonatas of Beethoven. Not even close in fact... But is it fair to compare them? Does Schubert get a free pass? What are your thoughts?


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I can't tell anyone what he should think, but I would put Schubert's B-flat sonata on the same plain as Beethoven's last three.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I consider Schubert's best piano sonatas as good as Beethoven's best.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I'm not as familiar with Schubert's sonatas as I am with Beethoven's, but from what I remember they almost out-Beethoven Beethoven by using crazy sudden modulations that sound almost seamless and natural, whereas Beethoven would clobber you over the head with the sudden and unexpected. 

While I appreciate subtly, I usually prefer Beethoven clobbering me over the head. It's a very close thing though.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Bulldog said:


> I consider Schubert's best piano sonatas as good as Beethoven's best.


The same for me, why do we always have to make choices.


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## Bruckner Anton (Mar 10, 2016)

I think at least D960 is among the greatest works in the genre, although it is hard to compare those works due to different approaches. For example, Schubert prioritizes lyricism and song-like themes and minimizes transition between themes in D960, while Beethoven nearly always emphasizes developmental and transitional process. Schubert puts three independent themes in three keys in his first movement, while Beethoven usually uses two groups in two key areas (sometimes he uses cadance themes but usually not in a new key).


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## chromatic owl (Jan 4, 2017)

It is true that their approaches to the sonata form as to music in general were quite different. From an artistic point of view Beethoven's and Schubert's sonatas (especially the last five or so) are equally great in my opinion. Which way you prefer is a matter of taste - I personally prefer Schubert. Although I cannot deny Beethoven's great wit and emotional depth I find a psychological density in Schubert that I do not find in Beethoven.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

I would say Schubert's late sonatas compare to Beethoven's mature ones about as well as his symphonies do to Beethoven's.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

The Beethoven pieces to me seem probably greater. They are composed structurally in a tighter and more condensed way but the Schubert works seem slightly more beautiful. 

I don't claim it is greater but I do prefer Schubert's 9th to any of Beethoven's symphonies.

One of the things I enjoy about Beethoven's late Sonatas is they seem more laid back. As mentioned in another thread there is much 'evidence of effort' in much of Beethoven's work, and as impressive as it may be there is something I find very 'un-Zen' about that.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Schubert’s late piano sonatas can, at least, be spoken of in the same breath as Beethoven’s. And that’s saying a lot.

But by 1828, it was all over, and possibly the greatest age in music was ended.


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## arnerich (Aug 19, 2016)

I'm not surprised by most of the responses. People are quite fond of Schubert, I'll admit that even I have a soft spot for his music. But I'll continue to play devil's advocate and take the unpopular stance that his sonatas aren't comparable to Beethoven's. They are beautiful but they leave me wanting. I can re-listen to the late Beethoven sonatas and still be floored by their depth and power. Just my 2 cents.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

Keep hold of your two cents - they're of little use to me 

What you are talking about here is whether you prefer one set to the other. Many of us choose not to declare such a preference because we regard both Schubert's late sonatas and Beethoven's as being wonderful music. Both communicate all manner of things - beauty, 'depth', 'power' amongst them. 

A great performer (such as Brendel, for example) can leave me floored by the depth and complexity of Schubert's music. There are real emotional depths in Schubert that go way beyond the 'quite fond' recognition of 'beauty'.

Beethoven and Schubert are both worthy of many of us calling them 'great' although they are different types of composers and their music may affect people in different ways. 

Just enjoy them! :tiphat:


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## chromatic owl (Jan 4, 2017)

Headphone Hermit said:


> A great performer (such as Brendel, for example) can leave me floored by the depth and complexity of Schubert's music.


Interestingly, my opinion on Brendel's Schubert is less favourable. After listening to his performance of D. 960, it appears to me that, while realizing the complexity of texture, he does not quite understand the meaning of Schubert's music. He plays the B-flat major sonata in a rather sentimental and overly lyrical and way making the music sound very beautiful and poetic, whereas the haunting darkness, the inevitable tragedy and the cruelty that make this music so incredibly stirring are completely lost in Brendels performance. 
Of course, this is but my personal opinion, so you may certainly disagree. Nonetheless, I would like to support my own impression by the fact that in Schubert's B-flat major sonata Brendel deliberately omits nine bars of music at the end of the exposition.



> *Excerpt from Wikipedia*
> Pianist András Schiff has described the omission of the repeat in these two movements as "the amputation of a limb". Brendel, on the other hand, considers the additional bars as unimportant and prefers to omit the repeats; with regard to the B-flat sonata, he further claims that the transitional bars are too unconnected to the rest of the movement, and believes that their omission actually contributes to the coherence of the piece.


  

For me this is an unfortunate yet definitive proof of Brendel's lacking comprehension of the D. 960 sonata and Schubert's music in general.

However, regarding Schubert's piano sonatas, I adore the performances of Yudina, Richter, Schiff, Koroliov and Uchida, who in my opinion actually understand Schubert and do justice to his ingenious compositions.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

I like Yudina's performances too (as well as many others). I would agree with you that Brendel and Yudina have very different views of what Schubert was communicating - and I find both to be convincing. Others also have alternatives that are compelling - and that is one of the great joys of listening to Schubert.


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## Muddy (Feb 5, 2012)

I love Schubert's last three piano sonatas, particularly opus 960. That being said, I don't think any piano music on this planet can stand toe to toe with Beethoven's opuses 106, 109-111. The arietta of opus 111 alone...words fail me. Again, I love Schubert, but late Beethoven piano music is like staring into a supernova.


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## arnerich (Aug 19, 2016)

Muddy said:


> I love Schubert's last three piano sonatas, particularly opus 960. That being said, I don't think any piano music on this planet can stand toe to toe with Beethoven's opuses 106, 109-111. The arietta of opus 111 alone...words fail me. Again, I love Schubert, but late Beethoven piano music is like staring into a supernova.


I love the Schubert sonatas too, I really do. But I agree with you completely. For me Beethoven's sonatas are just worlds above any other composers. I like to joke that my favorite Schubert sonata is Beethoven's opus 90.


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