# Music that was banned because it was too avant of it's time



## deprofundis (Apr 25, 2014)

When i lisen to
-Stravinsky rites of spring
-Bartók miraculeous mandarin suite
Varese arcana (i was wonderin if this was banned)

Im asking about classical work that shock the audience or alarm gouvernement
censorship?

Does it has something to do whit usage of tritone(the fameous devil note)?

:tiphat:


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

No. Music that shocked audiences was not necessarily "banned." Certainly it was at times controversial, and sometimes incited audience displeasure. But banning was primarily a political tool (Shostakovich's Lady Macbeth of Minsk, or Mozart's need to get pre-approval to write Figaro), or very occasionally a religious one.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

With the large exception of Stalin's Russia, there hasn't been much censorship of classical music for its musical qualities (as opposed to the politics/nationality/race/etc. of the composer) that I know of. 

Even many "musical scandals" aren't as much about music as they may seem to be. The Rite, I believe, was more controversial for its sexy stage business than for its daring rhythms. Same goes for Bartok's Miraculous Mandarin and Shosty's Lady Macbeth. 

Nevertheless, I'd be interested in examples that others know of where a purely instrumental work was banned for purely musical reasons.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The only banning I'm familiar with is the Nazi's banning of any music associated with being black, Jewish or having Jewish "blood".

Yet the rotten hypocrites had no trouble playing the banned music (especially American jazz!!) in the privacy of their own homes.

Imagine a society where Mahler's music was forbidden! I would move....unless of course, the Deutsche Volk elected me to be their Führer.


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## rrudolph (Sep 15, 2011)

My memory on this is a little hazy, but I believe there were some performing groups and/or venues that said they would no longer allow performances of Stockhausen's music after his controversial statements about the 9/11 terrorist attacks.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

rrudolph said:


> My memory on this is a little hazy, but I believe there were some performing groups and/or venues that said they would no longer allow performances of Stockhausen's music after his controversial statements about the 9/11 terrorist attacks.


Regardless of one's politics, one can't help but be impressed by music venues being willing to forgo so much revenue as a result of their convictions.


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## SuperTonic (Jun 3, 2010)

The final movement from Ligeti's Six Bagetelles for Woodwind Quintet was banned by Hungarian authorites, bowing to Soviet pressure, for being too dissonant. The full work was not premiered until Ligeti had emigrated to Germany.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

hpowders said:


> The only banning I'm familiar with is the Nazi's banning of any music associated with being black, Jewish or having Jewish "blood".
> 
> Yet the rotten hypocrites had no trouble playing the banned music (especially American jazz!!) in the privacy of their own homes.
> 
> Imagine a society where Mahler's music was forbidden! I would move....unless of course, the Deutsche Volk elected me to be their Führer.


You'll find a lot of information online on what is termed _entartete_ or "degenerate" music, music that was banned by the Nazis. Several record companies have issues series devoted to such music. One is DECCA. Here is part of the blurb from the DECCA website:

The scientific term "degenerate" was adopted by the Nazis to defame atonal music, jazz arrangements and, above all, works by Jewish composers. The concept of "degeneracy" became fixed to a new norm, namely the ideal of a music dictated by laws of racial origin.

The music branded and decried by the Nazis as being "degenerate" embraces a wide variety of styles, for their single-minded aim was simply to ensure the integrity and pre-eminence of German musical life as a whole, from the most popular operetta through to the avant-garde. Béla Bartok considered the label "Degenerate Music" as a title which did him honour, and, in 1938, he courageously demanded that the Nazi government should include his own compositions in the Düsseldorf exhibition. Most of the musicians affected by this absurd censorship - performers, composers, musicologists and teachers - were forced to emigrate or killed, causing a serious drain of talent in European musical life, the consequences of which have scarcely been recognized or appreciated even today.

The plea for tolerance, for free speech and dialogue in the arts, is what constitutes the significance for Decca today of the historical concept of "Entartete Musik". From a purely musical point of view, the "Entartete Musik" series has, with unanimous international critical acclaim, brought back to life more than 30 forgotten key works from the first half of this century by composers such as Braunfels, Goldschmidt, Haas, Korngold, Krása, Krenek, Ullmann and Waxman. These recordings may help the listener imagine what the musical life in Europe was before its destruction by the Nazis, and what it might have been if these great branches had not been abruptly cut off.

See: http://www.deccaclassics.com/us/series/prod_series?ID=ENTMUS

You may be interested in this site, too: http://fcit.usf.edu/holocaust/arts/musdegen.htm

And this: https://explore.lib.virginia.edu/exhibits/show/censored/walkthrough/entartete


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Yeah, but the Nazis didn't seem to mind the guilty pleasure of playing that "degenerate" music at home behind locked doors.
Seems they didn't mind collecting "degenerate" art either.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I thought that Decca Entartete series was one of the most worthwhile and illuminating musical projects I've ever experienced. It was thanks to it that I was introduced to composers such as Krenek, Ullmann and Wolpe and also the great cabaret tunesmiths like Friedrich Hollaender and Mischa Spoliansky. 

Cabaret music was often considered frivolous but there were often deeper emotions at work - if the song 'Muenchhaussen' doesn't move you then...well, just listen to it and have the lyrics to hand. 

Just as important for me was getting a better understanding of the hideous crackdown on such great music-making, Jewish and non-Jewish alike.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*Ginastera BOMARZO*

A work that I recently mentioned in other threads, Ginastera's opera BOMARZO, was banned in Argentina for several years. It was premiered in Washington, DC in 1967 but was not premiered in Argentina, Ginastera's home country, until 1972.

I think Xenakis' music was banned in Greece for many years.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

hpowders said:


> Yeah, but the Nazis didn't seem to mind the guilty pleasure of playing that "degenerate" music at home behind locked doors.
> Seems they didn't mind collecting "degenerate" art either.


You bet, and not only in terms of behind closed doors. The Strauss waltz dynasty had Jewish origins, but that was shoved aside and the Vienna New Year's Day concert established. I also know that jazz couldn't be banned in Paris during the occupation, the authorities turned a blind eye to it, and undoubtedly German soldiers visited the jazz bars like everyone else.

With regards to visual art, there was an exhibition of 'degenerate art' in Berlin during the 1930's, and across the road was a counter exhibition of official Nazi art. You know, the heroic faux Grecian statues of men with bulging biceps and paintings of Brunnhilde type maidens, that sort of thing. The authorities took statistics as to attendance, and there was a huge turn out for the degenerate show, whilst hardly anybody went to the official show.

I did a thread related to this topic to do with music here:

http://www.talkclassical.com/17881-music-banned.html

The examples I gave of my OP of Copland and Kodaly where slightly off the mark, those two pieces where not literally banned (more like practically banned, or just shoved aside and not played due to the prevailing political climate at the time, but both composers saw those winds change and where eventually honoured or at least respected by subsequent governments).

Another to do with non-classical music here:

http://www.talkclassical.com/20713-censorship-banning-non-classical.html


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

arpeggio said:


> ...
> I think Xenakis' music was banned in Greece for many years.


I never knew that. Why was his music banned?


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

SONNET CLV said:


> You'll find a lot of information online on what is termed _entartete_ or "degenerate" music, music that was banned by the Nazis. Several record companies have issues series devoted to such music. One is DECCA. Here is part of the blurb from the DECCA website:
> 
> Most of the musicians affected by this absurd censorship - performers, composers, musicologists and teachers - were forced to emigrate or killed, causing a serious drain of talent in European musical life, the consequences of which have scarcely been recognized or appreciated even today.


And of course, it weren't just the arts either - the Nazis also drove the cream of European science out of Europe. Most notably, almost all Europe's top nuclear physicists ended up working for the Americans, where it turned out that "Jewish science" is actually pretty handy to have around if you're trying to win a war...


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

ArtMusic said:


> I never knew that. Why was his music banned?


I really do not know the details. Maybe someone who knows more about Xenakis could clarify. I could be wrong.


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