# What makes a good film score? A discussion of WHY you love your fav. film scores



## Zuo17

Hello fellow film score enthusiasts,

I know we've seen all the different posts on _"What's your favorite movie music?" or "What's your favorite film score?" _

However, I want to present a new discussion that might involve some thinking and meditation. After reading the humongous lists of every forum member's favorite film music, I wonder *how does a film score become so great?* *What is the defining line or traits if you will, that separates a mediocre film score from a wonderful film score?* *What musical traits do we see in the music of John Willams, Howard Shore, Danny Elfman(to name a few), that make their music stand out?*

In essence, instead of asking *WHAT *your favorite film scores are, I am asking *WHY* you enjoy those film scores and *WHY* they stand out as film scores.

In my humble opinion, one of the important things I think a film score should do:_ It captures the essence of the moment it is composed for._ If you think about, the music is the main influence for the mood of the "scene". How can one experience fright when listening to _the Jaws theme_, or adventure when listening to _LOTR?_ It's the sad truth, but film scoring isn't all about the music. It has to cater to the film itself and the director's vision(_I hate saying that,lol_)

I look forward to your thoughts on this!

Until again,
Zach


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## LvB

Zuo17 said:


> In my humble opinion, one of the important things I think a film score should do:_ It captures the essence of the moment it is composed for._


I would agree, but-- the key word here is "essence," and disagreements over this or that score will arise if the essence of the scene, or even of the entire film, is still a matter of dispute. What appears on the screen at any given moment may not be the _essence_ (the heart, the core) of that moment, because what matters is the underlying emotional and/or intellectual truth of the shot, the scene, or the film. Most film scores do not do this, however enjoyable the tunes may be or however peppy the orchestration is, etc.. So I would modify your position: one of the most important things a film score should do is express the reality underlying the appearance on screen.

Examples, better and worse: 
Better: Joseph Mankiewicz's _The Ghost and Mrs. Muir_ is, on the surface, a romantic comedy which happens to include a ghost. Yet Bernard Herrmann's score is, from the very first notes, brooding and melancholy, seemingly quite inappropriate for the subject matter. Yet as the film unfolds it becomes clear that one of the themes, unspoken yet omnipresent, is that of the fleeting character of earthly life, of the sadness inherent in contemplating the passage of time. Herrmann intuited this, and gave it expression is a superb score, one which enriches the film immensely.
Worse: Robert Wise's _ I Want to Live!_ starts with a typical 50s jazz score by Johnny Mandel. At first this seems appropriate, as the central character of the film is a party girl living the wild life. But once she ends up being accused of, and sentenced to death for, a murder she denied committing, much deeper currents begin running than the music can possibly express (Wise recognized this, and used ever less music as the film progressed). The music has dated badly, and does not carry the weight needed.

Most movies are one dimensional, and thus most film scores, likewise one-dimensional, are perfectly appropriate (the dramatic brass-driven scores for 40s horror films, for example). Generally speaking, weak films don't inspire composers to do their best work, though many a minor film has been redeemed by its music (the director Sidney Lumet says that "Almost every picture is improved by a good musical score."). But the best films can call forth very impressive music indeed (think of Prokofiev's score for Eisenstein's _Alexander Nevsky_). Conversely, films which use pre-existing classical pieces are often simply piggybacking on the power of those pieces, and very rarely show the same quality as their music, and there is usually a sense of aesthetic imbalance for musically sensitive people watching them (especially since such films often use snippets rather than entire pieces, as with Kubrick's use of Richard Strauss in _2001:A Space Odyssey_). The reverse is true when serious films use, usually at the end, pop tunes, as these end up trivializing what has gone before.

Music is too often added in haste late in the production process, and it shows. It is a tribute to the emotional power of music that it can still so often work as well as it does.


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## Rondo

LvB said:


> Conversely, films which use pre-existing classical pieces are often simply piggybacking on the power of those pieces, and very rarely show the same quality as their music, and there is usually a sense of aesthetic imbalance for musically sensitive people watching them (especially since such films often use snippets rather than entire pieces, as with Kubrick's use of Richard Strauss in _2001:A Space Odyssey_).


Films may do a good job in introducing many people to classical music, but you make a great point. When a classical piece is used in a film, when it wasn't originally composed for use in the film, it hinders people's perspective of the piece if they've never heard it before. Now, before someone enters in playing the devil's advocate, I am not saying everyone is expected to perceive a piece of music as the composer originally intended (if it isn't perfectly obvious from the title or suite/opera/symphony or time period from which it came). Films work to provide people an emotional and/or visual backdrop for the piece--despite the origins of the work.

(Ok, get your curser on the quote button, because I am about to say something somewhat provocative)

It would be a _perfect_ (note emphasis) world for classical music if whenever someone heard the opening to Strauss' _Thus Spake Zarathustra_ or the waltz from Shostakovich's _Jazz Suite_ they didn't automatically picture an opening scene from a Kubrick film, or hear Barber's _Adagio for Strings_ and picture Willem Dafoe being shot down in a field in Vietnam. I am not speaking against Kubrick or Stone, both of whom are great directors and [most likely] had the best intentions. Rather, I am making the point of how playing 30 to 60 seconds (if _that_) of a large original work during a scene in a film has the [un]intended effect of providing to people a "context" for the work. However, it isn't an unexpected outcome in a fast-paced, money-driven society where "snippets" replace narratives and aesthetics outweigh quality. My guess is that the question which is in the mind of many people in Hollywood is: Why hire an original film composer when you already have a vast library of music from which to choose?

To relate this to the topic of the thread, a good film score should successfully convey the emotions of the film, _however_ if the score is not original it should not replace the _general_ emotional backdrop of the work if one is already firmly established.


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## Zuo17

Rondo,

Thanks for your wonderful insight. What do you think of the relation between the movie script/ plot and the score? Is there a significant connection?

Until again,
Zach


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## Yoshi

Zuo17 said:


> In my humble opinion, one of the important things I think a film score should do: It captures the essence of the moment it is composed for.


That's exactly what I think
I don't even have to add anything else


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## Argus

If the film is good, the music should be it's servant.

If the film is bad, don't waste good music on it.

If the film is mediocre, put some good music in it and it may become a good film.

Paradox?


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## Ignis Fatuus

Well there are practical considerations, like avoiding certain frequency ranges while diagetic sounds are occuring, most often, dialogue. Korngold supposedly wrote out dialogue in musical notation and scored his music just below it - a bit like opera. And as with all music, you must find the right balance between variety (not boring the viewer) and understandability/repetition (not over estimating the viewers attention span or memory capacity).

I would say that making the music appropriate is a must but it's not always true. I would say that Leia's theme doesn't really capture her feisty, independant nature... it's just a love theme. The same is probably more true of Marian's theme in Raiders of the Lost Ark (essential identical to Leia's theme). But who would criticise those two soundtracks???!

I think you need to choose compositional techniques very carefully. Williams is famous for his usage of leitmotif, if you can call it that. And sometimes it works like in Star Wars, and in Raiders of the Lost Ark. I love the awe-inspiring theme for the Ark and I love the fact that its theme plays quietly in The Last Crusade when they walk past a painting of the Ark and make slight mention of it. Wonderful trivia for the musical viewer 

However, I really dislike the theme usage in The Temple of Doom. "The Slave Children" have a march to represent them. It's great music but there's nothing particularly suggestive of children in it. So when he weaves in the "children motif" for the first time, to coincide with Indie's first glimpse of the slave labourers, it doesn't really have any effect.. We don't link the music with its subject till its grand performance, accompanied visually by a screen-full of slave children, and this happens at the END of the film!!

I think its much more useful to have themes that represent feelings or thoughts or ideas, rather than just people. Like in "Catch Me if You Can", when Frank looks at a pilot's uniform in a shop window, we hear the sentimental version of the "pilot theme", showing us he misses his flying days. Without this musical aid, any attempt to suggest this visually or vocally would be a bit too blatant.

Another great Williams example is in the Empire Strikes Back where Vader tells Lando something like "I'm altering the deal, pray I don't alter it any further". Lando walks off disgrunteled and we here a variation of the Rebels' Fanfare, confirming that he's getting disillusioned with the empire and being drawn to the Rebels' cause.

Well, this ended up as a rant on very specific examples. I hope someone found this vaguely interesting. I want to see what everyone else says on the subject, since I seem to have failed at giving general guidance to judging film music! 



Rondo said:


> (Ok, get your curser on the quote button, because I am about to say something somewhat provocative)


LOL


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## Sid James

I think a good film score conveys the psychological drama in an effective way. The music can connect us, for example, with what is going on in a character's mind. So the music is not just a soundtrack, but an integral part of the film, just like the visuals are...


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## kmisho

I think film music should be capable of standing on its own without the movie, just like a good opera score. One example off the top of my head is Bernard Hermann's music for Taxi Driver.


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## Ignis Fatuus

kmisho said:


> I think film music should be capable of standing on its own without the movie, just like a good opera score. One example off the top of my head is Bernard Hermann's music for Taxi Driver.


Why do you think this? I don't think the analogy with opera is a strong one.


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## StlukesguildOhio

I think film music should be capable of standing on its own without the movie, just like a good opera score. One example off the top of my head is Bernard Hermann's music for Taxi Driver.

I question this myself. I film is a complex work of art combining multiple elements. I don't know that I would expect the music to be able to stand on its own any more than I would expect the screenplay to be able to stand on its own as a work of literature... or a libretto from an opera to be able to stand on its own for that matter. There are instances in which the music in a film rises to a level where it can stand on its own but I don't know that such is a necessity for it to work within the film as a whole.


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## kmisho

Ignis Fatuus said:


> Why do you think this? I don't think the analogy with opera is a strong one.


It's true that the performers participate in the score, unlike in movie music. But if you can't thoroughly enjoy an opera without the stage sets and performers walking around on stage and acting, I don't think you have a very good opera. The music should be capable of standing alone, interesting in and of itself.


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## Ignis Fatuus

kmisho said:


> It's true that the performers participate in the score, unlike in movie music. But if you can't thoroughly enjoy an opera without the stage sets and performers walking around on stage and acting, I don't think you have a very good opera. The music should be capable of standing alone, interesting in and of itself.


I guess it depends on the definitions of "good soundtracks" and "stand alone". For me, I can imagine music which would bore me when devoid of visual accompaniment, but when played with the video (and diegetic audio), the interactions between the two components make for a breathtaking whole.

My favourite soundtrack is probably Morricone's "For a Few Dollars More". And it's nice enough music but I wouldn't give it too much attention if it was writen without the film. If you know the film, you know it's an extreme case of story/soundtrack interaction.


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## Argus

Ignis Fatuus said:


> I guess it depends on the definitions of "good soundtracks" and "stand alone". For me, I can imagine music which would bore me when devoid of visual accompaniment, but when played with the video (and diegetic audio), the interactions between the two components make for a breathtaking whole.
> 
> My favourite soundtrack is probably Morricone's "For a Few Dollars More". And it's nice enough music but I wouldn't give it too much attention if it was writen without the film. If you know the film, you know it's an extreme case of story/soundtrack interaction.


I have the _For a Few Dollars More_ soundtrack along with a few other Morricone/Leone film soundtracks on CD and can see what you mean. It repeats the pocket watch theme a lot and doesn't have anywere near the same emotional impact when separate from the film but it is still a very enjoyable listen.

Having seen the movie before listening to the soundtrack on it's own you build a relationship between the visuals and the music. Then when you listen to the music on it's own you remeber bits of the film and the emotions you felt whilst watching that particular scene. This enhances the listening experience for me.

One of my favourite films is _Once Upon a Time in America_. In that film I like how often the music is coming from characters in the film, either Cockeye playing the pan pipes or a jazz band in the speak easy playing a swing tune, which even further ties the music to the visuals.

On the opposite side of the spectrum is something like _2001: A Space Odyssey_ which even though it uses pre-existing music, I can't imagine it with a different score, it's probably the best thing about the film. The inclusion of Ligeti and Khachaturian makes sense but who would have thought a Viennese waltz or a Romantic tone poem intro would fit so perfectly with the themes of space and time, but fit they do. I am not sure whether it's a good thing to be exposed to music unrelated to a film via the film first or to hear the music on it's own and generate emotions and opinions on it beforehand, but at least it exposes great music to people who wouldn't have normally heard it.


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## Ignis Fatuus

Argus said:


> One of my favourite films is _Once Upon a Time in America_. In that film I like how often the music is coming from characters in the film, either Cockeye playing the pan pipes or a jazz band in the speak easy playing a swing tune, which even further ties the music to the visuals.


Yes, it's a great mixture of diagetic and non-diagetic music (another brilliant example is the Dunkirk scene in "Atonement"). And if you were listening to it without knowedlge of the film you would be forgiven for asking, "what's the point of that wailing harmonica? It doesn't fit with the orchestration!" It's only the film setting that allows this piece - the harmonica MUST stand out because it's the only instrument that appears in the film.

On the opposite side of the spectrum is something like _2001: A Space Odyssey_ which even though it uses pre-existing music, I can't imagine it with a different score, it's probably the best thing about the film. The inclusion of Ligeti and Khachaturian makes sense but who would have thought a Viennese waltz or a Romantic tone poem intro would fit so perfectly with the themes of space and time, but fit they do. I am not sure whether it's a good thing to be exposed to music unrelated to a film via the film first or to hear the music on it's own and generate emotions and opinions on it beforehand, but at least it exposes great music to people who wouldn't have normally heard it.[/QUOTE]

2001 really gets some people in a twist. I'm not too bothered if people associate the blue danube with spiralling spaceships. I don't think their taste has been misdirected in any way. I mean, most people, notable Bernard Herrmann, will tell you that film music must be specifically composed for it's visual partner... and yet he stole many extracts from his Sinfonietta for use in Psycho, perhaps the most praised soundtrack in history.


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## asd123

I think the score depends on the meaning of the movie 
if it is unreal out of the life 
who think it will be related


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## james786

The score of a movie depend on it's many parts like story,plot and Camera work. Many time when you watch any movie than you easy guess that what would be the next scene, i don't like such movies. I like such movie in which you find something beyond the imagination.


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## Antiquarian

A good film score compliments the film action and subject. Music supports the portrayed emotions on screen, and a good score draws out a reciprocal response from the audience, one that allows us to participate in the action instead of being a mere spectator. For instance, throughout David Lean's "Doctor Zhivago" there is a leitmotif (if that is the correct term) performed by a balalaika that is associated with Yuri. At the end of the film, when he sees the Lara for the last time, and Yevgraf reveals to Tonya her heritage, the use of this and other themes subconciously elicits emotions in the audience. Even now, not having seen the film in a while, hearing Maurice Jarre's score alone produces in me the same emotions.


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## Headphone Hermit

Another vote for Morricone - Once Upon a Time in the West

- a great series of leitmotif for the main protagonists
- music that was composed in parallel with the film so that certain shots and their music are intertwined with meaning (for example the famous panning shot of the town after Caludia Cardinale arrives in town)
- music that is integral to the story, especially the harmonica theme that presages the shoot-out at the end
- a soundtrack that isn't just 'music' - for example the famous opening sequence that lasts 10 minutes without dialogue, music (or actually much happening) but which is rivetting
- music that is emblematic of the themes of the movie, not just the characters
- music that you remember afterwards
- most importantly, music that YOU enjoy as much as the film


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## Capeditiea

only way i can explain this is through examples. 

First example, Titanic. (great film score. on top of that they have a quintet playing ruthlessly as the boat is sinking.) 
The Score was on top of things. It made the movie captivating. James Horner did a splended job. After seeing this at age 12 or thirteen. I begged my mom for the soundtrack. The Soundtrack ended up keeping the emotions with the film with the imagery included. 

Second Example, Mononoke Hime (beautiful film score.) 
This is the epitome of an emotional response in film. The characters had themes, and their themes fit their character. again, (at this time i had the money to get the soundtrack.) I listened to this non-stop when i came home from school. 

ironic thing i just noticed. both soundtracks have a vocal track. lol

Third example, Batman (the 1988 one) (horrible score, beautiful movie.) 
well... no almost every Danny Elfman score feels too similar from the last. Also, the most prolithic music is during the opening credits. 

Fourth Example, from an anime. and non-classical. Tokyo Ghoul. (beautiful story, apathic music to what is going on... with the exception of the last episode on the first season... it fit perfectly.)

Fifth and Final Example. Nadome Cantabile. 
this really isn't a score... but the anime is basically what led me to loving classical music to it's fullest. and inspired me to start writing scores. 
the music they use are abridged versions of Brahms' First, Rachmanicov's Second Piano Concerto, a bunch of Liszt, Chopin, and there is even a Mozart fanatic. Suprizingly I was expecting more Beethoven, but i think they only mention the road he walked on. The Voice actors are all musically inclined and have had practiced the instruments. But they also had a bit of background music at certain points. which fit the emotion. (it is my favourite anime.) 

But, most of my experience with theatrical scores are from anime.


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## Phil loves classical

My favourite film score is Leonard Rosenman’s Lord of the Rings (not Howard Shore’s). Unlike many film scores, it has a lot of development. It uses consonant music to depict the forces of good, and some bittersweet moments, and dissonant music for forces of evil, and lots of polytonality in between in the struggle of good and evil. It also has a bit of microtonality used to good effect. Personally I think this score is better than a lot of concert Classical Music. Rosenman studied with Schoenberg and Sessions. He also had a promising concert career sharing the bill with Babbitt until he started writing for films. He introduced modernism into movies


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## Captainnumber36

I love the score to John Carpenter's Halloween. A simple dark melody in 5/4 that just defines the film. Another score I enjoy a lot is Neil Young's improvised score to the film Dead Man starring Johnny Depp. It is perfect!


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## dsosin

As someone who composes silent film music, this is an endless topic of conversation, as many early scores for silents consisted of cut-and-paste classical/romantic/library music which sometimes works in a general way but very rarely in the specific, moment-to-moment way that good composers try to do. Similarly, using pop songs for soundtracks gives a great feeling for the time and mood—GOODFELLAS is one of the best examples of this sort of score—but I always try to get into the particulars of the emotional flow of scenes in my work, and I know people appreciate that.


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## Larkenfield

Spiderman 3. I think Sam Raimi, who wrote (with others) and directed, is a genius. It’s a movie about forgiveness, the hardest being to forgive oneself. I was surprisingly touched by the story.


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## Fabulin

A good film score fills the gaps between events on screen with universally understandable set-ups of fitting moods.


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## NLAdriaan

There are outstanding film scores, that both independently survive and also add an indispensable part to the film. To me an outstanding film score does more than just filling the gaps, it adds a main character to the cast. Of course, a lot of film scores are an assembly of existing tracks. I usually sit through the closing title to see which music was used. It often seems that with classical music, some third rate recordings are used, likely because the major labels charge too much. Only if a director exactly knows which specific interpretation he wants (Kubrick), you will find interesting interpretations. But only a fully dedicated score would make it to my list of favourites. So, Kubrick, however well chosen, does not make it to my list of favourites 

My favourites are:
Bernard Herrmann 
- The Hitchcock scores:
Psycho: probably the most important film score I know, music is the main character in the film. Every scene, the music is spot 
on and to think of a classic murder scene (shower), only accompanied by 'romantic' strings, quite a revolution! Incredible he 
didn't win the Oscar, not even a nomination
Vertigo and North by Northwest are also outstanding scores.
- Taxi Driver, where the music also contributes to the film, the saxophone theme alone is worth it
Carl Stalling
- For his revolutionary Cartoon scores for Warner Bros. There are a few CD's, dedicated to his music for Warner Bros. It is quite 
wild ride, but the music adds a lot to the cartoons. Incredible musicianship by the composer and the Warner Bros orchestra.
Dave Grusin
- The Firm. A wonderful jazzy score, which I just like as much apart from the film itself
Ennio
- Of course Morricone belongs here too, where I would like to mention The Mission, 1900 and Cinema Paradiso as the most 
outstanding scores, apart from the Westerns
Nino Rota
- Italians and film music are a good combination, Rota of course composed the wonderful Godfather themes, many Fellini scores 
and War and Peace

There is of course much more, but so much for my contribution


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## mikeh375

Apart from some obvious answers, good orchestration/midistration and excellent production values are an essential ingredient. There's a long line of brilliance going back to Korngold for orchestration, whilst the likes of Zimmer epitomise the modern aesthetic of hybrid scoring. Both are equally effective imv and both need highly developed multiple skills and artistry. Orchestration, be it for live players or via a DAW, directly impinges on the dialogue and fx and is a often a good indicator as to whether or not one is listening to a great scorer. An engineer who worked with Goldsmith told me that in the film dubbing suite, if a score by Goldsmith was being used, the dubbing engineer would just set the music level once on the mixing desk, knowing that Goldsmith's - and equally Arthur Morton's more often than not - orchestration will have been perfectly judged to accommodate the dialogue and fx.

Stand-out scores for me are the likes of Gladiator, The Arrival and Amelie. For purely orchestral scoring, Williams is deservedly an (the even) acknowledged master, but I also have a soft spot for Silvestri who wrote a beautiful score for Contact and a terrifying one for Predator, also Barry's haunting music for Out of Africa. These are just a few of my favourites though, there are many, many more.


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## TheMusicalScorpio

from my perspective, what makes a good movie/tv/videogame soundtrack is "passion"

ill give some examples, Alien 1 great creepy soundtrack, do we really hear it in the following movies? nope, only "Covenant". What I appreciate about the "Covenant" soundtrack is the continuation of the soundtrack we were exposed to with the first film thus already setting up the atmosphere of fear associated with that franchsie. As much as the original soundtrack is in there, Jed also adds his own chemistry in to the mix making the original score more of a nod along with his own soundtrack. Jed has obviously sat there and thought "how can I please the fans, but put my own signature on it?" and as far as im concerned he did a great job.

Now take Alien : Resurrection in comparison, I could even NAME a track from that score let alone remember a scene that stood out which means it didn't sit with me at all. Every composer has their signature sound, another example will be James Horner when he did Battle Beyond The Stars, elements of that soundtrack are clearly in Star Trek II : The Wrath of Kahn but not a direct rip off of himself if that makes sense


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