# What was your first experience with Wagner?



## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I am far from the _Perfect Wagnerian_, but I was lucky enough to come across an LP of excerpts from *Die Walküre* with one of my favorite passages from the *Ring*, the majestic _Todesverkündigung_ from Act II. Doubly majestic with the unparalleled voice of Kirsten Flagstad's Brünhilde and the far-from-chopped-liver Set Svanholm in prime voice.

I had not yet seen a Wagner opera live, until the 1970s when I volunteered to usher at the San Francisco Opera. The first live Wagner was *Die Walküre*, with Jess Thomas and Marita Napier as the twins, and Birgit Nilsson as Brünhilde, alternating with Berit Lindhölm. Needless to say, it was thrilling, even if my favorite scene was disappointing - as the Valkirie simply walks on to announce Siegmund's death. I wanted a better staging!


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

My first experiences were a number of orchestral CD's with overtures etc. Opera came rather late in my exploration of classical music, but when I went for it, I went all in by buying the Solti Ring box.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Art Rock said:


> My first experiences were a number of orchestral CD's with overtures etc. Opera came rather late in my exploration of classical music, but when I went for it, I went all in by buying the Solti Ring box.


Oh, I remember buying *Der Ring Ohne Worte* with the so-called "bleeding chunks!" You were also lucky to have hit the supreme recording (in my opinion) of *Der Ring Des Nibelungen*. I've had it in most guises over the years. The Blu-ray Audio is the best incarnation.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Especially the Wagner biographical TV series with Richard Burton, which was pretty fascinating back then (1983, the longer European version in 10 parts).


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

"Dawn and Siegfried's Rhine Journey," conducted by Toscanini on a 78rpm disc, followed by another 78 of Isolde's "Liebestod" sung by Helen Traubel under Artur Rodzinski. These were in the collection of a friend's mother, who enjoyed classical music. 33s were fairly new, and I started my long-play Wagner collection with overtures and preludes conducted by George Szell and Eileen Farrell's wonderful collaboration with Bernstein in the _Wesendonck Lieder_ and Brunnhilde's immolation scene.


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## Music Snob (Nov 14, 2018)

Die Meistersinger Prelude and choruse from a 5 disc opera compilation... circa 1997. However 2015 was the year everything changed. First, I met my soon to be wife, second I bought the DG Wagner box set at a steal... one good listen to Solti’s Parsifal and I’ve been hooked since.

After listening and studying Mozart for a few years, getting accustomed to Wagner’s music wasn’t always easy... but it has been quite worth the efforts. Now when I hear a Mozart singer they usually sound inadequate... as if as a career choice they couldn’t make the top tier so they settled on Mozart. I know that may be wrong but Wagner’s writing for voice, as we all know, requires quite a bit more stamina than the 18th century repertoire...

Great idea for a thread.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Music Snob said:


> Die Meistersinger Prelude and choruse from a 5 disc opera compilation... circa 1997. However 2015 was the year everything changed. First, I met my soon to be wife, second I bought the DG Wagner box set at a steal... one good listen to Solti's Parsifal and I've been hooked since.
> 
> After listening and studying Mozart for a few years, getting accustomed to Wagner's music wasn't always easy... but it has been quite worth the efforts. Now when I hear a Mozart singer they usually sound inadequate... as if as a career choice they couldn't make the top tier so they settled on Mozart. I know that may be wrong but Wagner's writing for voice, as we all know, requires quite a bit more stamina than the 18th century repertoire...
> 
> Great idea for a thread.


But Solti's _Parsifal_ was on Decca/London. Did you buy that too, or are you referring to Karajan's?


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Maybe the Decca Wagner Operas/Solti box, 21CD, released in 2012.

The Solti recordings were btw also used for the Richard Burton series.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I started with the lp box by Klemperer with all the preludes and excerpts.
Still my favorite collection to this day.
I had bought several operas by Rossini and Verdi and Donizetti.
Without in any way demeaning them, then i bought Kempe's Lohengrin.
It blew me away.
At the end of Act 1 i was actually trembling.
Then Karajan's and Solti's Rings.
I was never the same.


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## Music Snob (Nov 14, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> But Solti's _Parsifal_ was on Decca/London. Did you buy that too, or are you referring to Karajan's?


Ah... you sir know your Wagner recordings- however for reasons I'm not sure of it was definitely the Solti's. Here is a link to some info on the box:

https://www.classicaldaily.com/complete-operas-deutsche-grammophon-2013-wagner-43-cds-boxset/


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

^^^DG got permission from Decca to include the Solti in the DG box.
Probably because they wanted to sell Karajan's separately.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

joen_cph said:


> Especially the Wagner biographical TV series with Richard Burton, which was pretty fascinating back then (1983, the longer European version in 10 parts).


The Wagner bio was a great series despite Richard Burton. It was shown at the opera house in San Francisco in one fell swoop - 7 hours continuously with one intermission.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Music Snob said:


> Die Meistersinger Prelude and choruse from a 5 disc opera compilation... circa 1997. However 2015 was the year everything changed. First, I met my soon to be wife, second I bought the DG Wagner box set at a steal... one good listen to Solti's Parsifal and I've been hooked since.
> 
> After listening and studying Mozart for a few years, getting accustomed to Wagner's music wasn't always easy... but it has been quite worth the efforts. Now when I hear a Mozart singer they usually sound inadequate... as if as a career choice they couldn't make the top tier so they settled on Mozart. I know that may be wrong but Wagner's writing for voice, as we all know, requires quite a bit more stamina than the 18th century repertoire...
> 
> Great idea for a thread.


I don't think Mozart is easy to sing as Wagner- it requires too much vocal control and ease of emission, beauty of tone, facility with coloratura, great breath control, trills, and subtle interpretative touches than Wagner asks of his singers.


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## Josquin13 (Nov 7, 2017)

My first experience with Wagner came when I was doing a post-graduate course in London, England, after university. One day, a British composer, who was teaching our class, showed up with a record player under one arm and and some LPs under the other, and proceeded to play the Act I Prelude from Wagner's Tristan und Isolde for us, deliberately not telling us what is was. When the Prelude had concluded, he then asked the class what we thought this music was about?, as we had listened. When it came to my turn, I said that I had seen images of forests in a kind of Celtic, or Arthurian world...

Amazing, right? Well, maybe not, since several months prior to that I had seen John Boorman's film, Excalibur, which I would later learn was actually the very first time that I heard Wagner's music, within the film's sound track. (I only realized this many years later when I saw the movie for a second time.) In other words, the movie may have influenced how I heard the Act I Prelude that day, as parts of the Prelude were used in the film. 

However, I will say that the images of a forest that I saw in my mind that day as the Prelude played had nothing to do with the movie, but rather came from my own imagination, as I listened and responded directly to Wagner's music. So, I'd like to think that the power of Wagner's music evoked these images in my mind.

Afterwards, the British composer told us that this was music that held him in awe, & he couldn't believe it came from a human being...

When I returned to the states, I bought a single DG LP of 'highlights' from Tristan und Isolde, recorded from a live 1966 performance from Bayreuth, conducted by Karl Boehm. I played it over and over again, and became fascinated by the music. Which prompted me to then ask a composer friend of mine about which complete recording of the opera he would most recommend? He told me that I needed to buy not one, but two recordings!, and recommended those by Carlos Kleiber and Sir Reginald Goodall. Which I purchased eventually, though I bought Kleiber's first.

From there I moved on to a VHS videotape of a performance of Lohengrin, with Peter Hoffmann singing the title role...


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Itullian said:


> I started with the lp box by Klemperer with all the preludes and excerpts.
> Still my favorite collection to this day.
> I had bought several operas by Rossini and Verdi and Donizetti.
> Without in any way demeaning them, then i bought Kempe's Lohengrin.
> ...


I came to *Lohengrin* much later, but it is my favorite Wagner opera and, of course I have the Kempe studio recording as well as a live one with Sandor Konya from Bayreuth. Can't get enough of it.


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## Andrew Kenneth (Feb 17, 2018)

John Boorman's "Excalibur" in 1981.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Josquin13 said:


> My first experience with Wagner came when I was doing a post-graduate course in London, England, after university. One day, a British composer, who was teaching our class, showed up with a record player under one arm and and some LPs under the other, and proceeded to play the Act I Prelude from Wagner's Tristan und Isolde for us, deliberately not telling us what is was. When the Prelude had concluded, he then asked the class what we thought this music was about?, as we had listened. When it came to my turn, I said that I had seen images of forests in a kind of Celtic, or Arthurian world...
> 
> Amazing, right? Well, maybe not, since several months prior to that I had seen John Boorman's film, Excalibur, which I would later learn was actually the very first time that I heard Wagner's music, within the film's sound track. (I only realized this many years later when I saw the movie for a second time.) In other words, the movie may have influenced how I heard the Act I Prelude that day, as parts of the Prelude were used in the film.
> 
> ...


Wow! I absolutely LOVE *Excalibur* and Wagner fits the movie extremely well. And the Pre-Raphaelite production design is all of a piece with the music - _Siegfried's Tod_ is particularly apt.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Andrew Kenneth said:


> John Boorman's "Excalibur" in 1981.


Love it! My favorite movie. Thank you.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

My first experience of Wagner was around 1970 in a neighbours house, on TV. I know not what aspect of Wagner the programme was about, but lots of music was played. One piece really captured my imagination, a piece that I _thought_ was the Ride of the Valkyries. I was mesmerised! It turned out to be the overture for the Flying Dutchman! I was only 10, c'mon!

Any road up (northern English expression, my North American friends), I was smitten and that was it.

Later, I sold my left gonad* and bought Solti's Ring and loved all the 'Hammer House of Horror'** and film-music excess the Solti brought to the table.

Then I discovered Karajan's Ring recording and then I enjoyed a serious, artistic non-histrionic way of doing Wagner. I quickly sold my Solti rubbish.

Then the real revelation came. Goodall. Reginald Goodall. That shy, unassuming bashful, modest English maestro, who had watched the calm, casual but expert Germans from the pit in Bayreuth, and then coached the British singers and instrumentalists to produce the Zenith of Ring cycles, happily available on Chandos.

*English informal term for a bollock or testicle
** British film company founded in 1934 and famous for its horror movies of the 1950s-1970s


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

My route into Wagner was initially a Double Decca set of Dorati's _Flying Dutchman_ which I really enjoyed.





I then hit a bump in the road. First with a compilation from Bohm's _Ring Cycle_ which for some reason didn't grab me at the time(??) then various CD versions of _Lohengrin _which, as it turns out, is not my favourite of Wagner's operas... Finally I tried historic recordings like De Sabata's _Tristan_ at La Scala and I think some of Bodanzky's Met sets which unluckily are recordings which can be hard work depending on the sound quality of the transfer.

Following a hiatus, I enjoyed Domingo's highlights of Siegfried and Gotterdammerung





Then luckily I heard and enjoyed Flagstad in Act 3 of Walkure





Then followed in rapid succession Solti's Ring, Leinsdorf's Walkure, Knappertsbusch's Act One of Walkure etc etc.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

One wonders what if Lennie had done a Ring cycle .........


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Andrew Kenneth said:


> John Boorman's "Excalibur" in 1981.


A hokey and over-the-top film in many respects, but yeah, undeniably effective in several sequences. Especially that ending--thanks in large part to the carefully delineated use of Wagner's music. The movie remains one of my guilty pleasures.


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## LeoPiano (Nov 1, 2020)

I, like almost everyone else, first heard Wagner in orchestral excerpts such as the Ride of the Valkyries and Siegfried's Funeral March, but I never thought of exploring any further. My first true experience with Wagner was this video that my friend sent me:






I heard a lot about the Ring before, mainly that it was 15 hours long and included leitmotifs, but I never thought of actually listening to it for myself. From the opening bars of the prelude of Das Rheingold, I was hooked. I had it playing in the background for the whole of Das Rheingold, and then I resumed it the next day. Throughout the next week, I listened to the whole Ring, and I was amazed that I had never even considered of listening to Wagner! After, I had to seek out any other opera by Wagner I could get my hands on (next was Tristan, then Parsifal, two of my favorite operas).


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Andrew Kenneth said:


> John Boorman's "Excalibur" in 1981.


One of my favourite Wagner pieces. So stirring.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

amfortas said:


> A hokey and over-the-top film in many respects, but yeah, undeniably effective in several sequences. Especially that ending--thanks in large part to the carefully delineated use of Wagner's music. The movie remains one of my guilty pleasures.


In my opinion, there should be no guilt associated with watching *Excalibur*, especially if, like me, you're an Arthurian nut! My favorite book is "The Once and Future King."


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Toscanini's Prelude and Love-Death. Just blew me away.
First operaa: Die Walkure


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## lextune (Nov 25, 2016)

I am a musician, and in one way or another (Looney Tunes etc.) Wagner's music was always in my life, but most of my early years it would have been limited to a record or two of Wagner Overtures, or "Highlights" at most. I am/was a pianist, and the piano literature occupied most of my time. 

But in 1990, public television broadcast Wagner's Der Ring des Nibelungen from the Met (Maestro Levin). It was a big deal to me as a young musician. Back in those days it was far more difficult and/or expensive to gain exposure to these mysterious, towering, compositions. I was greatly affected by seeing them. After those four nights, I was hooked on the Ring.

I had recorded them onto VHS tapes that would be watched until the quality had degraded to unwatchable. But Wagner, and the Ring more specifically, had gained my full attention. So that probably qualifies as my first real "experience".


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MAS said:


> I don't think Mozart is easy to sing as Wagner- it requires too much vocal control and ease of emission, beauty of tone, facility with coloratura, great breath control, trills, and subtle interpretative touches than Wagner asks of his singers.


Actually, except for the coloratura Wagner _did_ ask for those things - literally, when he was alive and working with singers. He merely made them harder to achieve and harder to hear by pitting the human voice against a 120-piece orchestra. I take your point though; when the voice is fully exposed in Mozart and most Italian opera every flaw is easily noticed.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Technically the first must have been as a fairly small (primary school) kid as my parents had an LP "Great Opera Choruses" which included at least the sailor's chorus from the Dutchman which I loved and probably also the Spinning girls from the same opera and the Bridal Chorus from Lohengrin.
When I seriously got into classical at around 15 years of age, Wagner did not play a central rôle. I vaguely recall another LP with highlights of which I loved the Tannhäuser Ouverture and don't quite remember what else was on it. 
I think the first complete Wagner opera I heard on CD was Tristan (in the live Böhm/Vickers/Nilsson from Orange which was the cheapest at a time when opera boxes were usually quite expensive) a few years later when I was around 19-20.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

MAS said:


> In my opinion, there should be no guilt associated with watching *Excalibur*, especially if, like me, you're an Arthurian nut! My favorite book is "The Once and Future King."


Reactions differ. All I can say is, since it first came out, I've never been able to watch _Excalibur_ thinking, "Wow, what a great film!" More like, "Yeah, well . . . but it's still kind of fun."


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

The Bell Telephone Hour introduced me to Nilsson and I discovered Wagner from her records at the Jackson, MS library.. At 15 my sister had a friend who sang at Bayreuth and got me seats watching backstage from the wings of Parsifal and Meistersinger. Gwyneth Jones was Kundry in 1970. I was too young to know what I was hearing.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Knew "Ride of the Valkyries" and the Act III Lohengrin prelude, having played them in band class. Our teacher however prefaced us playing his works by acknowledging he was a "terrible person" and anti-semite. This sentiment and these two pieces defined "Wagner" to me, so I wrote him off as angry "music to invade Poland". I preferred Chopin.

It was 2nd year university when I stumbled upon the Digital Dream Door list of greatest classical music. And while I was familiar with most of the top of the list, they ranked two Wagner works in the top 10. So I bit the bullet and downloaded the Ring Cycle.

The Ring was the old Met Levine DVD, which mostly bored me. Did not care at all for Hildegard Behrens' matronly Brunnhilde. It took me 3 days to get through Gotterdammerung. Was about the abandon the Wagner project when I came across an article hyping up Tristan und Isolde. So I downloaded the 1966 Bohm recording.

Wow, what a completely different experience. Was completely ensnared right from the first few notes of the prelude. I think the big difference is Tristan shattered my preconceived notions of who "Wagner" was, this was not war music, but raw, erotic, and visceral. As Stephen Fry once said, it simply "did stuff inside of me" which I had never before experienced.

Listened to that Bohm recording for weeks. In bed, while studying, even at the gym. I bought and watched every commercially available DVD on Amazon at the time. I was obsessed, looking back I'm not sure how I listened to that much Tristan without losing my mind (or perhaps I did ).

Gave the Ring another chance some time later, this time the Solti recording and the Centenary Ring DVD. Was a completely different experience this time around, I guess I had now been "primed" for Wagner. And I loved watching Gwyneth Jones.

Made my way to the other works after that. I saved "Parsifal" for last, and I am so glad that I did.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

My first experience with Wagner was not a good one. We went for dinner and I got stuck with the bill!:lol:

Seriously, I was listening to Radio 3 on the BBC and caught the last half hour of Solti’s Tannhäuser and that was me hooked. Solti’s Ring next then Kempe’s Lohengrin, Karajan Dresden Meistersinger, Solti Tristan then Boulez Parsifal. Lots and lots of other versions came later of course!


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> The Bell Telephone Hour introduced me to Nilsson and I discovered Wagner from her records at the Jackson, MS library.. At 15 my sister had a friend who sang at Bayreuth and got me seats watching backstage from the wings of Parsifal and Meistersinger. Gwyneth Jones was Kundry in 1970. I was too young to know what I was hearing.


I wish we still had things Ike The Bell Telephone Hour, or The Voice of Firestone, a time when corporations wanted to sponsor prestige projects like opera or other cultural endeavors.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I have a friend, a sometime composer, whose youthful way of listening to *Tristan Und Isolde* was, "to get naked on the floor and let the music wash all over me." I myself couldn't stand the piece, so it seemed absurd to me, especially since, in the days of LPs, you'd have to get up several times to change sides!


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## perempe (Feb 27, 2014)

I went to see Parsifal in my first season 7 years ago.

I saw 25+ operas in that season, but Parsifal and Mefistofele stood out.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

perempe said:


> I went to see Parsifal in my first season 7 years ago.
> 
> I saw 25+ operas in that season, but Parsifal and Mefistofele stood out.


Well, that's jumping into Wagner with both feet.

For some incomprehensible reason, what immediately came into my mind on reading your post was Julie Andrews in _The Sound of Music_ singing "Let's start at the very beginning, a very good place to start..."


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I can't really remember my first experience of Wagner, probably _The Ride of the Valkyries_ when I was a child, and I never had one of those transformative experiences that most here seem to have had. I've only seen *Tristan und Isolde* live on stage, and only once. It didn't have the same effect on me as anything by Verdi did.
I remember seeing the Boulez Ring on TV, as it was relayed one act per evening on the BBC (this was back in the days when the BBC had a serious arts programme).
My first recording was Solti's *Tannhäuser*, which I really liked and I gradually built up a small collection of Wagner recordings, though I still have only one recording of each opera except Holländer (Klemperer and Konwitshcny) and Tristan (Karajan studio and Goodall). I've also heard the Furtwängler and Kleiber Tristans and, on balance, I'd say it's my favourite of his operas.
I sometimes feel I am missing out as so many people are so passionate about him, whereas my passions tend to be with Italian and French opera.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

Listening to _Rheingold _when I was six. I liked Norse mythology.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Barbebleu said:


> My first experience with Wagner was not a good one. We went for dinner and I got stuck with the bill!:lol:


Mine was even more traumatic: Wagner was our babysitter when my brother and I were little. I still don't like to talk about it.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

My first experiences with Wagner involved The Ring (Solti's recordings) playing loudly in our house quite often. I was not more than 7 years old but a lot of it sank into my psyche. A little later I borrowed my parent's Meistersinger recording (I think it was the Knappertsbusch set) and would play it in my room. I got to know it quite well.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

My first experience with Wagner was when I had a dollar in my pocket and visited Cutler's Records in New Haven. The only thing that the dollar could buy was the "Seraphim Guide to the Ring":









The music appealed enough that I asked for the Karajan Rheingold for my birthday, and the rest is history.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Enthusiast said:


> My first experiences with Wagner involved The Ring (Solti's recordings) playing loudly in our house quite often. I was not more than 7 years old but a lot of it sank into my psyche. A little later I borrowed my parent's Meistersinger recording (I think it was the Knappertsbusch set) and would play it in my room. I got to know it quite well.


I envy you. In our house I was the teenager playing Solti's _Ring, _ and my father was the one yelling "Turn that screaming woman down!" He would also say, as I picked my way, fascinated, through the piano scores of _Parsifal_ and _Tristan,_ "Why don't you play something more cheerful? That stuff sounds like a funeral." Well, he wasn't entirely wrong. Merely fundamentally wrong.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Three excerpts albums on vinyl: The two below plus another which featured selections from the Boulez Ring of 1979-80, given away with a part-work magazine sometime during the 1980s. I wasn't into classical then and I didn't go any further but they must have sowed the seeds which germinated over a decade later.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

wkasimer said:


> My first experience with Wagner was when I had a dollar in my pocket and visited Cutler's Records in New Haven. The only thing that the dollar could buy was the "Seraphim Guide to the Ring":
> 
> View attachment 157123
> 
> ...


What luck that you had Furtwängler as your first Wagner conductor!


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

My very first musical experience in living memory involves Wagner.

My parents took me to visit my grandparents in the early '90s. I must have been four or five years old at the time. I distinctly remember sitting inches away from a big speaker, utterly hypnotized by the music wafting out of it. It was the overture to _Tannhäuser_.

I've never looked back.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> One of my favourite Wagner pieces. So stirring.


Long ago, there was a video on youtube, with this scene of the movie "Waterloo (1970)" with the first 1 minute part of the Siegfried funeral march "added" as background music in the beginning (around 0:00~1:00).
At the time, I thought it was an actual soundtrack of the movie and it was unusually "inspired" music for a movie soundtrack, but later I learned about the actual composer of the music. (And the "edit" on the video) That was my first encounter with Wagner as far as I can remember.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

MAS said:


> What luck that you had Furtwängler as your first Wagner conductor!


I got into non-operatic Classical music well before opera (I only really got into opera during covid). Knowing Furtwangler's reputation as a conductor, and listening to some stuff on youtube, I bought an EMI box set of Furtwangler's recordings. Although I bought it for the non-operatic material, it included the famous _Tristan und Isolde_ and this was my honest-to-god first real experience with Wagner. Honestly, its hard to think of a better one!


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Besides the inevitable exposure to "Ride of the Valkyries," it was the Solti Ring; which introduced me both to the glories of mid-century operatic singing (I fondly remember my jaw dropping at the cataclysmic power of Nilsson's heroic monologues, London's gorgeous bass, Ludwig's velvety voice; and cracking up at Stolze's bizarre cackling) and the epic sweep of Wagner's dramatic imagination. From those first mystical notes of _Das Rheingold_ rising up from the abyss, I knew this was unlike anything else I had ever heard. And as a _Lord of the Rings_ fan, I had no problem soaking up the grand, absorbing storytelling of the saga. Later when I took in Tristan, I had a very similar reaction to the audience at the premier, many of whom reportedly stayed up all night crying. I am very far from a dedicated Wagnerian (I'm not a huge fan of his other operas outside of excerpts), but the experiences of the Ring and Tristan remain incredibly visceral for me every time I repeat them.


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## planet (May 1, 2015)

First cartoon: Bugs Bunny and Elmer Fudd
First film: Excalibur
First exposure to the real deal: The Met documentary while I was in high school or college (1990?)
First album: Solti's ring cycle, in the mid-90s.
First staging: Despite earning peanuts, I saved my money for months to get nosebleed seats for my wife and I to a complete cycle in San Francisco in 1998. For me at the time, this was enthralling, glorious, life-changing.

Now I have ~10 versions of just the Ring alone. 

Bucket List: Bayreuth, of course.


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## Subutai (Feb 28, 2021)

Apologies if this has been said before but....
Wagner's music heard for the 1st time is nothing you may have heard before. Place yourself in his time and hearing what Wagner brought to Classical Music. Nothing like you've ever heard before. Or since.

(Do not equate him with Hitler. Please.)

I completely understand why mortal men thought him a god. If you truly listen. Just listen. Then you may realise why he may be the greatest thing since Beethoven.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Subutai said:


> Apologies if this has been said before but....
> Wagner's music heard for the 1st time is nothing you may have heard before. Place yourself in his time and hearing what Wagner brought to Classical Music. Nothing like you've ever heard before. Or since.
> 
> (Do not equate him with Hitler. Please.)
> ...


That was Mahler's opinion. He said "There is Beethoven and Richard, and after them, nobody."


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> That was Mahler's opinion. He said "There is Beethoven and Richard, and after them, nobody."


Plot twist: Mahler meant Strauss, not Wagner.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Plot twist: Mahler meant Strauss, not Wagner.


Plot untwisted: he did not. Mahler wasn't an idiot. Where do you get your misinformation?


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

I think Twoflutes was attempting to be funny! Hopefully!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> I think Twoflutes was attempting to be funny! Hopefully!


How can we tell?


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

When Richard Strauss wrote a bunch of waltzes called "Schlagobers" (Austrian German for whipped cream), there was the general feeling that he had not quite succeeded and the following joke in Vienna: If Richard, rather Wagner, if Strauss, rather Johann, if Schlagobers, rather Demel (a famous viennese café and pastry shop).


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> Plot untwisted: he did not. Mahler wasn't an idiot. Where do you get your misinformation?





Barbebleu said:


> I think Twoflutes was attempting to be funny! Hopefully!


Yes, although it seems it was a poor attempt 

Mahler's comment is, of course, quite ridiculous and no one, I hope, takes it seriously either.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Yes, although it seems it was a poor attempt
> 
> Mahler's comment is, of course, quite ridiculous and no one, I hope, takes it seriously either.


It isn't ridiculous. It's simply an aphoristic way of recognizing the exceptional magnitude of the two composers' genius and influence. As a composer Mahler was profoundly influenced by his predecessor, and as a conductor and music director he was devoted to, and celebrated for, performing the operas. Like many other musically knowledgeable people before and since, Mahler considered Wagner the most important composer since Beethoven and a creative mind of immense proportions. Really, how much competition was there for those distinctions?


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> It isn't ridiculous. It's simply an aphoristic way of recognizing the exceptional magnitude of the two composers' genius and influence. As a composer Mahler was profoundly influenced by his predecessor, and as a conductor and music director he was devoted to, and celebrated for, performing the operas. Like many other musically knowledgeable people before and since, Mahler considered Wagner the most important composer since Beethoven and a creative mind of immense proportions. Really, how much competition was there for those distinctions?


Mahler's comment gives the impression that Beethoven and Wagner are the only important composers and everyone else is unimportant. It is a ridiculous comment because Bach, Mozart, Haydn and Brahms, at least, are in the same conversation. But perhaps Mahler's context was much more specific than the broader context of all composers.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Mahler's comment gives the impression that Beethoven and Wagner are the only important composers and everyone else is unimportant. It is a ridiculous comment because Bach, Mozart, Haydn and Brahms, at least, are in the same conversation. But perhaps Mahler's context was much more specific than the broader context of all composers.


I don't get that impression, and I'm sure Mahler was far too musically knowledgeable to think that or say it. If memory serves, the remark occurs in a letter to someone else in the music business. It's hard to know what he meant by "after them." Maybe he wasn't impressed by the music he was hearing from his contemporaries, and perhaps he was referring to the tradition of German Romanticism of which he and Strauss were arguably the last great representatives.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Mahler's comment gives the impression that Beethoven and Wagner are the only important composers and everyone else is unimportant. It is a ridiculous comment because Bach, Mozart, Haydn and Brahms, at least, are in the same conversation. But perhaps Mahler's context was much more specific than the broader context of all composers.


Gustav Mahler wrote that "in Bach, the vital cells of music are united as the world is in God," 
https://interlude.hk/the-passions-of-bach/
The last word Gustav Mahler uttered on his deathbed - according to his wife, Alma - was "Mozart." 
https://www.baltimoresun.com/bs-mtblog-2009-11-the_baltimore_symphony_orchest-story.html
At the end of the first act, Brahms rushed onto the stage and embraced Gustav Mahler before their mutually adoring public. It was a great moment in the young conductor's career. "That Brahms was so appreciative makes me very happy," Mahler wrote to a friend. "I consider this the greatest success that has fallen to my lot…"
https://www.abc.net.au/classic/read...cally-curious-when-brahms-met-mahler/10732264


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> I don't get that impression, and I'm sure Mahler was far too musically knowledgeable to think that or say it. If memory serves, the remark occurs in a letter to someone else in the music business. It's hard to know what he meant by "after them." Maybe he wasn't impressed by the music he was hearing from his contemporaries, and perhaps he was referring to the tradition of German Romanticism of which he and Strauss were arguably the last great representatives.


OK. If he used "after" in the temporal sense, I can see it (although he clearly then undervalued Sibelius). I thought of "after" in a different sense, as referring to items in an ordered set.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

What was my first experience with Wagner?

Oh! It was wonderful! We both sat in his study in front of the fireplace with wine and cheese and held hands while we listened to the Prelude and Liebestod together and one thing led to another.....(if you catch my drift!)!!


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> OK. If he used "after" in the temporal sense, I can see it (although he clearly then undervalued Sibelius). I thought of "after" in a different sense, as referring to items in an ordered set.


He probably said it in German. There might be nuances here that were lost in translation. Are there any fluent German speakers here that can potentially provide more insight?


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Mahler's comment gives the impression that Beethoven and Wagner are the only important composers and everyone else is unimportant. It is a ridiculous comment because Bach, Mozart, Haydn and Brahms, at least, are in the same conversation. But perhaps Mahler's context was much more specific than the broader context of all composers.


Not really. He says there is Beethoven and Wagner, and after that: nobody. This states nothing about the composers prior/concurrent to them.

Besides, by Mahler's own word he is a "nobody" so who cares what he says?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Couchie said:


> This states nothing about the composers prior/concurrent to them.


Cause they're all _foreplay_


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

hammeredklavier said:


> Cause they're all _foreplay_


I gotta get this put on a bumper sticker


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## Music Snob (Nov 14, 2018)

Couchie said:


> I gotta get this put on a bumper sticker


I concur... with your permission I would like to make that happen. Avatar and all...


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Music Snob said:


> I concur... with your permission I would like to make that happen. Avatar and all...


Go for it! :tiphat:


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

hammeredklavier said:


> Long ago, there was a video on youtube, with this scene of the movie "Waterloo (1970)" with the first 1 minute part of the Siegfried funeral march "added" as background music in the beginning (around 0:00~1:00).
> At the time, I thought it was an actual soundtrack of the movie and it was unusually "inspired" music for a movie soundtrack, but later I learned about the actual composer of the music. (And the "edit" on the video) That was my first encounter with Wagner as far as I can remember.


I have a similar story to share. I watched the film _Raging Bull_ for the first time, and there was this lush, late Romantic music playing. I immediately thought "wait a minute; I know for certain there was nobody in the 1970s capable of writing such music". That's how I learned the name Pietro Mascagni.


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