# Wagner NAND Brahms



## Dodecaplex (Oct 14, 2011)

I have decided to start a systematic exploration of the music of these two fine folks. In the end, I will end up being super-obsessed with one of them (but not both (and certainly not as obsessed as I am about Bach)). It was bound to happen. This is just an update.

Fans of the above composers, feel free to recommend music/argue/kill each other/etc.

I'm leaning towards Wagner at the moment, by the way.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Dodecaplex said:


> I'm leaning towards Brahms at the moment, by the way.


That's good to know! Brahms's _Rinaldo_ is a piece of ***** but it's still better than _Tristan_.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

For Wagner I would recommend:

- Der fliegende Holländer
- Tannhäuser und der Sängerkrieg auf dem Wartburg
- Lohengrin
- Das Rheingold
- Die Walküre
- Siegfried
- Götterdämmerung
- Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg
- Tristan und Isolde
- Parsifal

For Brahms:

-
-
-

or if you're in the mood for some good music,

-


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## Dodecaplex (Oct 14, 2011)

Polednice said:


> That's good to know! Brahms's _Rinaldo_ is a piece of ***** but it's still better than _Tristan_.


From Brahmsie, I've so far liked Nanie and the 3rd symphony. Never heard of Rinaldo, but it seems like a bad thing.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Four essentials:


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

Essential Wagner Recordings

-All the Solti 
-Knappertsbusch Conducts Wagner
-Knappertsbusch 1951 Gotterdammerung 
-Keilberth 1955 Gotterdammerung

Parsifal 
-Kubelik 
-Knappertsbusch '51, '62

Meistersinger 
-Kubelik 
-Solti 1995

But seriously if you've never listened to Knappertsbusch's Wagner you haven't really listened to Wagner.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

This is what Wagner sounds like to me:


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## Dodecaplex (Oct 14, 2011)

Couchie said:


> x


And which recordings?


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Dodecaplex said:


> And which recordings?


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

Polednice said:


> This is what Wagner sounds like to me:


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

And:










Watch in that order.

On CD: Any Solti, except substitute 1966 Bohm for Tristan.

[edit] Damn you brianwalker.


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

To be fair here's my selection of Brahms

Symphonies 
1. Karajan VPO (Decca Legendary) 
2. Kleiber VPO live 
3. Jochum BP DG 
4. Kleiber VPO DG Studio

Too many Requiems, just pick one it doesn't matter.

Violin Concerto - Pick your soloist, not your conductor. If you don't like female violinists then my recommendations are bunk.

-Mutter/Karajan
-Mutter/Masur 
-Fischer 
-Mullova/Abbado

Double Concerto - The famous one with all the stars 
Piano Quartet No.1 - The famous one with Argerich

Piano Quintet in F - Alban Berg Quartet

Piano Concerto no. 2 - Reiner/Gilels - pick your conductor not your pianist, the music leans on the orchestral side and isn't a difficult piano playing.

String quartets aren't important, I'm satisfied with the Amadeus recording of the sextets, op. 111 is nice.

Rhapsodies - Argerich.


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

Polednice said:


> Four essentials:


How come your images are bigger than mine?


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

brianwalker said:


> How come your images are bigger than mine?


Darling, everything about me is bigger.


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

Shouldn't this be Wagner XOR Brahms, unless you decide you don't like either.

They were both rather full of themselves, I like to call them Bragner.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

quack said:


> Shouldn't this be Wagner XOR Brahms, unless you decide you don't like either.
> 
> They were both rather full of themselves, I like to call them Bragner.


???? Brahms was the most humble composer of them all!


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

Shush it is for the joke.


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## Dodecaplex (Oct 14, 2011)

quack said:


> Shouldn't this be Wagner XOR Brahms, unless you decide you don't like either.


No, it's NAND because XOR never works in the real, practical world (e.g. if the world ends tomorrow).


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Ability to write superlative chamber music is what separates the men from the boys. So Brahms it is all the way in that department. My favourites are his string sextets, piano trios, _Clarinet Quintet_, piano quartets and the _Piano Quintet_. Brahms was not a guy who hid behind some ancient German legends, he actually put his life into his music, it has strong autobiographical elements. So if you are human and not a megalomaniac, you will enjoy his music.

This is tongue in cheek & stirring up fans of _that _composer, but I've put in it what I think is true also.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

I am not human - I am of the green monster.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Among the essential works of Brahms I would include (just scraping the surface):














































*****


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

(All 4 Symphonies)


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Wagner? I'd start here:














































*****


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

*****


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)




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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Good you post WAGNER


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Getting to the REAL point of this thread, I like both* Lindsay Wagner *and* Miss Brahms *from _Are You Being Served _equally. Legends, both - the first was I think the bionic woman, the second was the sidekick to Miss Slocombe (she was always concerned about her...cat).

















Both are blondes (but probably now they're greys), so that correlates with Wagner's Brunnhildes and Brahms'...dunno...mature bearded image?...


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## pjang23 (Oct 8, 2009)

StlukesguildOhio said:


>


Seconded. Cello Sonata No.1 alone should be enough to convert you. It's packed to the gills with counterpoint, and quotes Kunst der Fuge of all things.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

So many good recommendations that I don't know if I can add anything at all... Except the remark that I'm a fan of both Brahms and Wagner!

With Wagner, start with DVDs with English subtitles, unless your German is very good. When you are familiar with the libretto and the whole work, you can start listening to CD's. And there's nothing wrong with an overtures/vorspiels/excerpts compilation (Karajan, Klemperer).

With Brahms, some of my favourites are Piano Concertos/Freire/Chailly, Double Concerto/Oistrakh/Rostropovich, Piano Trio #1/Dumay/Wang/Pires, Piano Quintet/Borodin quartet, and Symphony #1/Barenboim.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

I like Wagner. He has inspired my compositions very much. I used to hate Brahms immensely, but now I'm finding that I don't mind him so much.


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

Wagner is master in Opera, while Brahms in Chamber music, besides Brahms has few choral works.

And in overall I prefer Solti to Karajan. Solti is of the best (if not the best) conductors ever ... Karajan tried to over-emotionalized each work he conducted, some of them are pretty good indeed.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

StlukesguildOhio said:


>


ABOMINATION! Anyone who listens to this is not listening to Brahms.


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

Polednice said:


> ABOMINATION! Anyone who listens to this is not listening to Brahms.


There are always different interpretations and they're equally valid.

Plus he could be recommending it because it has the Bergrabnisgesang, Op. 13 and Schicksalslied, Op. 54 that no one ever records.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

brianwalker said:


> There are always different interpretations and they're equally valid.


Wrong. Only the interpretations I deem valid are valid.


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## Philip (Mar 22, 2011)

Dodecaplex said:


> I will end up being super-obsessed with one of them (but not both





quack said:


> Shouldn't this be Wagner XOR Brahms,





Dodecaplex said:


> No, it's NAND because XOR never works in the real, practical world (e.g. if the world ends tomorrow).


Boolean algebra is my forte, and you meant XOR; admit it. PS. You can implement all logic with NAND gates, here's XOR:










Hence the lack of sense in your last argument.


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## Dodecaplex (Oct 14, 2011)

You win.

...


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Why do people always have to compare apples and oranges ? Chalk and cheese ? Christianity vs Judaism ?
Dogs vs cats ? Boxers vs briefs ? Michael Jordan vs Magic Johnson ? 
Hamburgers vs . hotdogs ? Chinese cuisine vs French cuisine ? The Simpsons vs The Family Guy ? 
Such comparisons are totally futile . Brahms never wrote an opera, although he never ruled out the possibility of doing this duirng his lifetime. He was simply never able to find a sunject he realy liked .
Wagner wrote only one early symphony (not bad at all) plus an unfinished second . Unlike Brahms, he never wrote any concertos for whatever instrument . There are a small number of non-operatc works by tricky Dicky , and these are almost totaly unknown to the general concert-going public .
Let's just be grateful for having the music of both these titans .


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Because apples are nicer than oranges. Fact.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

superhorn said:


> Why do people always have to compare apples and oranges ? Chalk and cheese ? Christianity vs Judaism ?
> Dogs vs cats ? Boxers vs briefs ? Michael Jordan vs Magic Johnson ?
> Hamburgers vs . hotdogs ? Chinese cuisine vs French cuisine ? The Simpsons vs The Family Guy ?


Oranges
Cheese
Judaism
Cats
Boxers 
I don't know who the heck those people are
Hamburgers
Chinese cuisine
The Simpsons.

There.


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## Dodecaplex (Oct 14, 2011)

*Meistersinger XOR Requiem*

I'll begin with these two, and I'll be back in a week and impart God's Judgment unto you.










*XOR*










I don't often do things in their proper order


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Bye bye Brahms.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

You should have gone with Rattle for the Requiem, but, though Gardiner completely butchers the symphonies, he does OK with choral music. I'll live in hope... If your verdict is not what I want to see, Brahms's corpse (which I keep in my bed) is going to be severely punished.


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

Brahms is defeated


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## Roberto (Jul 17, 2010)

Brahms is an honest maestro; Wagner is full of ambition and grandiosity


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