# TC Top Recommended Electronics Works List; Discussion Thread



## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

I am grappling with the idea of hosting a TC Top Recommended electronic works list. Compared to Tchaikov6's various composer lists, which will last about a month each, this is going to be a long-term project. I presume that the threads taking place simultaneously will not be a problem, but TC's opinion (especially Tchaikov's) matters a whole lot more than mine. Of course there are other important things to discuss (such as audience and rules), but I think this needs to be adressed first.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

I suppose with a top electronic works list, the first rule that will need to be established is if the works have to be classical, and what exactly will count as classical.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

And must the works be all electronic or partially so? (i.e. Some of Unsuk Chin's works are partially electronic.) I'd be very interested in such a list either way.


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

Weston said:


> And must the works be all electronic or partially so? (i.e. Some of Unsuk Chin's works are partially electronic.) I'd be very interested in such a list either way.


I'm thinking as long as a work includes electronics it is eligible.


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

*Questions to tackle:*

*1.*


brianvds said:


> if the works have to be classical, and what exactly will count as classical.


I will make an executive decision and say classical only - I hope it will be fairly obvious whether something is classical or popular music. If not, I am open to suggestions.

*2.* Will having two recommended lists going on at the same time be a problem?
Again, I hope not.

*3.* How should this project be run (i.e. like previous lists, ranked nomination?, etc.)? 
I am leaning towards ranked nomination, especially after hearing senza sordino's experience with unranked nominations in the piano trios list. Ties will be broken by seeing which work has had more nominations in previous rounds. Other than that it will be run like previous lists.

*4.* Is there enough interest?
brianvds and Weston have already expressed interest. If you are willing to participate, please reply to this thread so I know.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I have zero knowledge of classical electronics music and no idea of its popularity here on TC. How many participants do you feel are needed to have a viable project?


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I would worry that there may not be enough interest. Maybe I'm wrong, but electronic music seems to be discussed here much less than other styles. Normally, people start these threads with several people showing interest, and once the thread starts, many others join in. I don't know a good way to determine the true interest other than starting a thread, but I would be a bit wary in this case.

I like some electronic music, but I know way too little about the genre to likely join.


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

Bulldog said:


> I have zero knowledge of classical electronics music and no idea of its popularity here on TC. How many participants do you feel are needed to have a viable project?


I'd say around ten.



mmsbls said:


> I would worry that there may not be enough interest. Maybe I'm wrong, but electronic music seems to be discussed here much less than other styles. Normally, people start these threads with several people showing interest, and once the thread starts, many others join in. I don't know a good way to determine the true interest other than starting a thread, but I would be a bit wary in this case.
> 
> I like some electronic music, but I know way too little about the genre to likely join.


Yes, audience is definitely something to be weary about. But I do think there is a fairly large contemporary music circle on TC that _could_ participate.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Portamento said:


> Yes, audience is definitely something to be weary about. But I do think there is a fairly large contemporary music circle on TC that _could_ participate.


I do believe you have your answer. So, start it up and remember you can shut it down any time you want.


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## Sina (Aug 3, 2012)

It would be the most interesting "TC Top Recommended List" for me.


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

I need more opinions on whether to limit the list to classical music and, if so, what draws the line. Unless there are any objections, further unknowns have been resolved.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

Portamento said:


> *Questions to tackle:*
> 
> *1.*
> I will make an executive decision and say classical only - I hope it will be fairly obvious whether something is classical or popular music. If not, I am open to suggestions.
> ...


For me, I don't think so. I'm fine with having this list. I honestly couldn't participate, I really know nothing of electronic music. But it's a great idea, and if you have enough people, go for it.


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## Trout (Apr 11, 2011)

I'd be happy to participate! I'm really not knowledgeable enough to say where lines should be drawn, but basically all the electronic pieces I know can be considered classical.

Maybe there should be some clarification regarding what exactly is "electronic"? Would this include music involving tapes, amplifiers, or loud speakers? And, similarly, electric guitars or violins?


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## Sina (Aug 3, 2012)

I think non-classical pieces are irrelevant here, and I guess it's pretty clear which electronic pieces are classical and which are not. Those that have been _composed_ by _composers_ we can call "classical".


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

Trout said:


> I'd be happy to participate! I'm really not knowledgeable enough to say where lines should be drawn, but basically all the electronic pieces I know can be considered classical.
> 
> Maybe there should be some clarification regarding what exactly is "electronic"? Would this include music involving tapes, amplifiers, or loud speakers? And, similarly, electric guitars or violins?


This article provides a good definition of what is electronic and what is not. Everything you mentioned in your post counts.



Sina said:


> I think non-classical pieces are irrelevant here, and I guess it's pretty clear which electronic pieces are classical and which are not. Those that have been _composed_ by _composers_ we can call "classical".


Problem solved.


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

Duplicate post.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I'd be interested to watch the thread develop, rather than contributing (electronics are not my strong point).

Just a comment: I would be really clear about definitions upfront. For instance, Respighi's Pini di Roma makes use of a gramophone - but that work would not qualify I assume. How about Messiaen's Turangalila with its ondes martenots? And so on.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Another question would be how long the list should aim for. Certainly not 100. 20 might be doable depending on what qualifies.


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

Art Rock said:


> Just a comment: I would be really clear about definitions upfront. For instance, Respighi's Pini di Roma makes use of a gramophone - but that work would not qualify I assume. How about Messiaen's Turangalila with its ondes martenots? And so on.


Both of these work would not qualify. Any work that gives a prominent part to "electronic musical instruments, digital instruments, and/or circuitry-based music technology" does. Is that definition too vague?



Weston said:


> Another question would be how long the list should aim for. Certainly not 100. 20 might be doable depending on what qualifies.


20 seems good, but more is always an option if participation allows it.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

To clarify a bit more... which of the following would be OK for this?

Messiaen - Turangalila symphony (extensive use of ondes martenot)
Adams - The dharma at Big Sur (concerto for electric violin and orchestra)
Reich - Different trains (for SQ and tape)
Respighi - Pini di Roma (with a nightingale song from gramophone)
Bryars - Jesus' blood never failed me yet (looped tape of hobo singing)


EDITED PS: previous couple of posts did not show for me (board issues).


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

And after my edit all these posts are not there again.... it is really hard to do anything on the board right now.


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## Trout (Apr 11, 2011)

Portamento said:


> Both of these work would not qualify. Any work that gives a prominent part to "electronic musical instruments, digital instruments, and/or circuitry-based music technology" does. Is that definition too vague?


Really? The Messiaen doesn't have a prominent-enough part?

And what about many of Philip Glass's works that incorporate electric organ and keyboard synthesizers? Pieces I'm specifically thinking about include Einstein on the Beach, Koyaanisqatsi, and Music in 12 Parts.



Weston said:


> Another question would be how long the list should aim for. Certainly not 100. 20 might be doable depending on what qualifies.


20 would be way too short, in my opinion.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Art Rock said:


> And after my edit all these posts are not there again.... it is really hard to do anything on the board right now.


It has been a frustrating couple of days fighting it out with TC. I guess that TC is like electricity in the home. We take both for granted until they shut down on us.


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

Art Rock said:


> To clarify a bit more... which of the following would be OK for this?
> 
> Messiaen - Turangalila symphony (extensive use of ondes martenot)
> Adams - The dharma at Big Sur (concerto for electric violin and orchestra)
> ...


Definitely the Adams, Reich, and Bryars. Messiaen and Respighi - I don't think so.



Trout said:


> Really? The Messiaen doesn't have a prominent-enough part?
> 
> And what about many of Philip Glass's works that incorporate electric organ and keyboard synthesizers? Pieces I'm specifically thinking about include Einstein on the Beach, Koyaanisqatsi, and Music in 12 Parts.


Let me ask you this: Do you think of Messiaen's _Turangalîla-Symphonie_ as an electronic work? I consider it to be an _orchestral_ work which happens to include the ondes Martenot, an electronic instrument. This inclusion doesn't necessarily make the _Turangalîla-Symphonie_ an _electronic_ work, as the electronic element is surrounded by a standard orchestra (tape + SQ is different because of the amount of instruments). That's just my opinion. If enough people disagree, then I will gladly adjust.

The Glass works you mention would all qualify.


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## Trout (Apr 11, 2011)

Portamento said:


> Let me ask you this: Do you think of Messiaen's _Turangalîla-Symphonie_ as an electronic work? I consider it to be an _orchestral_ work which happens to include the ondes Martenot, an electronic instrument. This inclusion doesn't necessarily make the _Turangalîla-Symphonie_ an _electronic_ work, as the electronic element is surrounded by a standard orchestra (tape + SQ is different because of the amount of instruments). That's just my opinion. If enough people disagree, then I will gladly adjust.


The Messiaen is as much an "electronic" work as those Glass pieces I mentioned. The ondes martenot is extremely evident in all 10 movements and is central to the work's timbres and overall affect. The Messiaen or Glass pieces certainly are not electronic in the same way that Gesang der Jünglinge or I Am Sitting in a Room or even Different Trains are. But still, they would meet the criterion you indicated in your earlier post:



Portamento said:


> I'm thinking as long as a work includes electronics it is eligible.


If the criterion is now _how much_ the electronics feature in a work, it is by no means a binary evaluation in which pieces are simply orchestral or electronic. There's clearly a spectrum here and I would like to know if there would be some blanket criteria applied or if we shall just decide on each piece's eligibility on a case-by-case basis.

And looking at the nominated pieces so far, here are others that fall into the same Turangalila category of orchestra/large ensemble+electronics:

Adams: Harmonium
Adams: The Dharma at Big Sur
Boulez: Repons
Glass: Akhnaten
Glass: Einstein on the Beach
Murail: Les Sept Paroles
Stockhausen: Mittwoch aus Licht


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

Trout said:


> The Messiaen is as much an "electronic" work as those Glass pieces I mentioned. The ondes martenot is extremely evident in all 10 movements and is central to the work's timbres and overall affect.
> 
> The Messiaen or Glass pieces certainly are not electronic in the same way that Gesang der Jünglinge or I Am Sitting in a Room or even Different Trains are. But still, they would meet the criterion you indicated in your earlier post:
> 
> ...


I'm cornered! Help!

Jokes aside, I was actually just going to say that I've changed my mind, and that works _would_ qualify *as long as there is an electronic element present*.


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## Guest (Aug 15, 2017)

I'm a very big fan of electroacoustic music (and I'd argue that we use the term 'electroacoustic' because it does not really imply popular styles of electronic music) and I'd be more than willing to be active voting in this list and suggesting works.


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## PeterFromLA (Jul 22, 2011)

I don't think Harmonium has any electronic element. 

I replaced Les Sept Paroles with a piece by Saariaho, Lichtbogen, where the electronic/computer component is more prominent.

In the case of Einstein, all musical instruments are either amplified (winds, violin, voices) or electronic (keyboards).


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## Guest (Aug 15, 2017)

I'd also argue that the electroacoustic component of the pieces of music on the list should probably not include traditionally notated parts for electronic instruments. It would be better to distinguish the creation, electronic transformation and diffusion of sounds via electronic means as different to simply composing something which has an ondes Martenot in it. The skills and process needed from the composer are quite different.


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

PeterFromLA said:


> I don't think Harmonium has any electronic element.
> 
> I replaced Les Sept Paroles with a piece by Saariaho, Lichtbogen, where the electronic/computer component is more prominent.
> 
> In the case of Einstein, all musical instruments are either amplified (winds, violin, voices) or electronic (keyboards).


Harmonium has a synthesizer.


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## PeterFromLA (Jul 22, 2011)

Yeah, I never thought of Glass as an "electroacoustic" composer, except that he wrote for amplified and electronic instruments (in the case of his ensemble): his thinking was not "electronic" in the way it was for composers affiliated with the Columbia-Princeton Electronic Music Cente or the Studio for Electronic Music of the West German Radio. But above it was stated that Glass's ensemble pieces qualified, so I inserted a couple of pieces that were all electronic/amplified in instrumentation.


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## PeterFromLA (Jul 22, 2011)

Portamento said:


> Harmonium has a synthesizer.


Learn something every day!


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## Trout (Apr 11, 2011)

jms said:


> I'd also argue that the electroacoustic component of the pieces of music on the list should probably not include traditionally notated parts for electronic instruments. It would be better to distinguish the creation, electronic transformation and diffusion of sounds via electronic means as different to simply composing something which has an ondes Martenot in it. The skills and process needed from the composer are quite different.


I like this idea.


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

jms said:


> I'd also argue that the electroacoustic component of the pieces of music on the list should probably not include traditionally notated parts for electronic instruments. It would be better to distinguish the creation, electronic transformation and diffusion of sounds via electronic means as different to simply composing something which has an ondes Martenot in it. The skills and process needed from the composer are quite different.


Sounds like a plan. So, if I am not mistaken, the following nominated works would not qualify:

Adams: Harmonium
Adams: Dharma at Big Sur
Glass: Einstein on the Beach
Glass: Akhnaten


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## Trout (Apr 11, 2011)

Portamento said:


> Sounds like a plan. So, if I am not mistaken, the following nominated works would not qualify:
> 
> Adams: Harmonium
> Adams: Dharma at Big Sur
> ...


Plus the other two Glass works nominated, I believe.


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## Guest (Aug 16, 2017)

^^^^ Yes and meanwhile we still have masterpieces such as Répons, Oktophonie, Cosmic Pulses, Artikulation, Concret PH, Red Bird, Sud, Mortuos Plango Vivos Voco, Gerhard's 3rd Symphony etc etc etc from which we can create a fantastic list of fantastic pieces of music.


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## PeterFromLA (Jul 22, 2011)

I will revise my list....


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Portamento said:


> Sounds like a plan. So, if I am not mistaken, the following nominated works would not qualify:
> 
> Adams: Harmonium
> Adams: Dharma at Big Sur
> ...


Not to mention Adams's excellent Clarinet Concertino "Gnarly Buttons," which includes a sampled cow moo in the "Mad Cow Hoedown."


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

KenOC said:


> Not to mention Adams's excellent Clarinet Concertino "Gnarly Buttons," which includes a sampled cow moo in the "Mad Cow Hoedown."


_Gnarly Buttons_ would count - the other Adams works (_Harmonium_, _Dharma_) wouldn't.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

What about Leeuw's Der nächtliche Wanderer? It uses several recordings (dog barking, poem of Hölderlin, quotation of Wagner’s Elegie for accordion, etc.)


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

Tchaikov6 said:


> What about Leeuw's Der nächtliche Wanderer? It uses several recordings (dog barking, poem of Hölderlin, quotation of Wagner's Elegie for accordion, etc.)


This work would qualify. Recordings/tapes are not notated traditionally.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

Portamento said:


> This work would qualify. Recordings/tapes are not notated traditionally.


Okay! Well, I guess I can participate then. That is probably the only work I know well enough that I could nominate and vote for.


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

Tchaikov6 said:


> Okay! Well, I guess I can participate then. That is probably the only work I know well enough that I could nominate and vote for.


Well, a good way to start is by listening to pieces that have already been nominated. I know I will be doing a lot of that this weekend...


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## Trout (Apr 11, 2011)

I noticed Murail's Vampyr! for electric guitar has been nominated, but wouldn't that be ineligible under the new criteria?


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

Trout said:


> I noticed Murail's Vampyr! for electric guitar has been nominated, but wouldn't that be ineligible under the new criteria?


Huh. I could've sworn I wrote Désintégrations. I even recorded my vote as Désintégrations in Excel. Anyways, good catch.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Has Morton Subotnick been mentioned? Two very popular works that came out originally on LP:


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

KenOC said:


> Has Morton Subotnick been mentioned? Two very popular works that came out originally on LP:


Yes - in fact, these very two works have been nominated by the same person.


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## PeterFromLA (Jul 22, 2011)

Glad someone remembered Jonathan Harvey's follow-up to Gesange.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

So if a composer wrote a piece to be performed by keyboard synthesizers - would it qualify?

Cuz to me that's "traditionally notated"


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## ST4 (Oct 27, 2016)

Agreed, Vampyr is just electric guitar through a loop/playback device (from what I recall).


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## ST4 (Oct 27, 2016)

Portamento said:


> Huh. I could've sworn I wrote Désintégrations. I even recorded my vote as Désintégrations in Excel. Anyways, good catch.


Disintegrations is amazing, that work is very highly thought of by me.

But I would consider that more a concerto grosso to which the ensemble plays more significant importance w/ electronics as the figure to which it interacts. Just my thoughts


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## ST4 (Oct 27, 2016)

Subotnick is awesome. I love many of his works, I tend to prever his mixed media in general though. Wild Bull is amazing though. 
Silver apples has a very unique appeal to me but it's not my favorite. 

Portamento, would you count Babbitt's Philomel in this thread?


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

ST4 said:


> Portamento, would you count Babbitt's Philomel in this thread?


Yes. The recorded soprano voice is not notated traditionally.


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

ST4 said:


> Disintegrations is amazing, that work is very highly thought of by me.
> 
> But I would consider that more a concerto grosso to which the ensemble plays more significant importance w/ electronics as the figure to which it interacts. Just my thoughts


If Disintegrations and other works were not eligible, very specific guidelines would have to be set as to what is an electronic work and what is not. And I do not want to argue about if the electronic element(s) play an important/significant enough part in a work to qualify (I've already done some of that).


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## ST4 (Oct 27, 2016)

Portamento said:


> If Disintegrations and other works were not eligible, very specific guidelines would have to be set as to what is an electronic work and what is not. And I do not want to argue about if the electronic element(s) play an important/significant enough part in a work to qualify (I've already done some of that).


I've always considered it an ensemble work with electronics that add a certain aesthetic touch to it, rather than an "electronic work"

The score is pure joy though


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

I assume Billone's _An Na_ for ensemble and amplifier would count... any other opinions?


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## calvinpv (Apr 20, 2015)

I just purchased a CD of Steen-Andersen's music (on iTunes so I don't have the liner notes), and I'm wondering if the following would be considered electronic:

In Her Frown (2007) for 2 amplified sopranos (as listed by wikipedia)
On and Off and To and Fro (2008) for vibraphone, soprano sax, bass, and 3 musicians with megaphones
Study for String Instrument No. 2 (2007) for strings and whammy pedal

I don't care what the verdict is, but it does raise the issue of whether having a special microphone in front of your (the vocalist's) face is sufficient by itself to be classified as electronic.



I also have a question if Haas' Hyperion would be electronic. I'm inclined towards NO because I see it as 'multimedia' rather than 'electronic'. But what do others think?


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

calvinpv said:


> In Her Frown (2007) for 2 amplified sopranos (as listed by wikipedia)
> On and Off and To and Fro (2008) for vibraphone, soprano sax, bass, and 3 musicians with megaphones
> Study for String Instrument No. 2 (2007) for strings and whammy pedal
> ...
> I also have a question if Haas' Hyperion would be electronic. I'm inclined towards NO because I see it as 'multimedia' rather than 'electronic'. But what do others think?


Of those three, only 'Study for String Instrument No. 2' counts.

I wouldn't consider Hyperion electronic either.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

Music for if you are forever having an epically bad forever day and want to relish it...finger paint with it...maybe you woke up in a dumpster covered in someone else's vomit or feces...or maybe all your pets ran away...or maybe you woke up and found out Trump was elected...or maybe your wife left you and took all your stuff...or your insomnia was wickedly powerful...or you dreamt maggots were growing in your eyeballs...or...or...






BTW, I love it and say thank you to whoever originally nominated it


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

I'd like to promote this piece for the list. Please give it a listen and nominate/vote for it:


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

I suppose that this would be an appropriate time to bring up the longevity of this project. How does a list of 50 sound? Participation is looking good.


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## PeterFromLA (Jul 22, 2011)

Considering that the genre is not that longstanding (vis-a-vis other genres), 50 sounds reasonable to me.


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

nathanb said:


> Maybe we should just vote for LICHT as one work. All seven operas have electronic music...


Perhaps this should be discussed. I will chime in with my personal opinion later.


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## PeterFromLA (Jul 22, 2011)

What does the list of ranked works look like so far? Would be good to see our collective handiwork in progress. Thanks, p.


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

PeterFromLA said:


> What does the list of ranked works look like so far? Would be good to see our collective handiwork in progress. Thanks, p.


You can see the list on Page 7 of the main thread ;

1. Stockhausen: Kontakte
2. Boulez: Répons
3. Harvey: Mortuos Plango, Vivos Voco
4. Varèse: Déserts 
5. Stockhausen: Gesang der Jünglinge 
6. Lucier: I Am Sitting in a Room
7. Boulez: Anthèmes II
8. Reich: Different Trains
9. Nono: La lontananza nostalgica utopica futura
10. Boulez: ...explosante-fixe...
11. Saariaho: Lichtbogen 
12. Murail: Désintégrations
13. Varèse: Poème électronique
14. Schaeffer & Henry: Symphonie pour un homme seul
15. Cage: Roaratorio
16. Marshall: Three Penitential Visions
17. Nono: Como una ola de fuerza y luz
18. Chin: Xi
19. Berio: Laborintus II
20. Stockhausen: Cosmic Pulses


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

Should operas be excluded from the list? 

Let's vote.


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## calvinpv (Apr 20, 2015)

On what basis should operas be excluded? In the other thread, nathanmb was worried about their 'musicality,' but I don't think that's a sufficient reason; after all, we were more than willing to enshrine "I am sitting in a room" and are more than willing to consider Reich's "It's Gonna Rain" or "Come Out." These three works are the furthest thing from being 'musical.' 

Also, excluding operas means excluding my beloved "Prometeo." 

So I vote no.


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## PeterFromLA (Jul 22, 2011)

I don't think opera should be excluded based on the criterion of "musicality." If anything, such exclusion should be based on the notion that the electronic component may be considered inessential or peripheral to the work, similar to how works in which electronics were relegated to an accompanying role in orchestral works were deemed unsuited to the competition.

Having said that, it seems to me that the electronic component is not marginal to the operatic works currently on the list, but rather is fully integrated into them, so I'd vote no as well.


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

Then it's settled.


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