# Help with getting Stockhausen



## soni (Jul 3, 2018)

I love Stockhausen's Gesang der Jünglinge, Mantra, Refrain, Klavierstück X and the helicopter quartet - I'm convinced all 5 of these are masterpieces and Mantra belongs in my desert island collection. However, the rest of his music leaves me in complete bewilderment.

Take Zeitmasse for instance - to my ears this sounds like the closest to playing random notes you can get while still retaining a vaguely Webernian sound. Or Gruppen - I just can't warm to that piece and to me it doesn't sound "nice", despite my ears being attuned to serialism and dissonance. Then there are the electronic compositions - I am told (by Wikipedia) that Hymnen, which consists of extracts of national anthems and electronic sounds, is thought by some to be a masterpiece on the same level as Beethoven's Missa Solemnis. Can someone please offer some help in appreciating Stockhausen's music? Ideally as many pieces as possible, since the ones I do like have convinced me of the composer's genius.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

soni said:


> I am told (by Wikipedia) that Hymnen, which consists of extracts of national anthems and electronic sounds, is thought by some to be a masterpiece on the same level as Beethoven's Missa Solemnis.


Yeah, but is it better than CATS? Until it's thought by some to be a masterpiece on the same level as CATS, I really can't take that sort of praise seriously.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

soni said:


> I love Stockhausen's Gesang der Jünglinge, Mantra, Refrain, Klavierstück X and the helicopter quartet - I'm convinced all 5 of these are masterpieces and Mantra belongs in my desert island collection. However, the rest of his music leaves me in complete bewilderment.
> 
> Take Zeitmasse for instance - to my ears this sounds like the closest to playing random notes you can get while still retaining a vaguely Webernian sound. Or Gruppen - I just can't warm to that piece and to me it doesn't sound "nice", despite my ears being attuned to serialism and dissonance. Then there are the electronic compositions - I am told (by Wikipedia) that Hymnen, which consists of extracts of national anthems and electronic sounds, is thought by some to be a masterpiece on the same level as Beethoven's Missa Solemnis. Can someone please offer some help in appreciating Stockhausen's music? Ideally as many pieces as possible, since the ones I do like have convinced me of the composer's genius.


Try Carré, and Bruno Maderna's performance of Kontra-Punkte. Be sure to hear Rzewski playing Clavierstuck X.

It would be good if someone could recommend a good book -- one that covers Klang and after.

Licht -- I've sen Donnerstag, but I didn't enjoy it. And it somehow put me off exploring the cycle further.

This is a good website

http://stockhausenspace.blogspot.com/2018/03/i-remember-kontakte_21.html

The guy who runs it is friendly and I'm sure he'd appreciate it if you dropped him a line and asked his opinion.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

soni said:


> ...I am told (by Wikipedia) that Hymnen, which consists of extracts of national anthems and electronic sounds, is thought by some to be a masterpiece on the same level as Beethoven's Missa Solemnis.


People apparently say the strangest things. Why would a comparison be made with Missa Solemnis of all things? According to the Wiki, Pierre Boulez once declared, "Stockhausen is the greatest living composer, and the only one whom I recognize as my peer" (credited to Anonymous)

On the other hand, again from the Wiki, _"perhaps the most caustic remark about Stockhausen was attributed to Sir Thomas Beecham. Asked "Have you heard any Stockhausen?", he is alleged to have replied, "No, but I believe I have trodden in some"_


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

DaveM said:


> People apparently say the strangest things. Why would a comparison be made with Missa Solemnis of all things?


Yeah. I was thinking exactly the same thing. Completely random. Maybe we should be comparing it to a Quantz flute concerto? Maybe it's a masterpiece on the same level as Quantz's 63rd Flute Concerto? It sounds like one of those un-sourced "people are saying" quotes where if "people are saying", it must be true.

* By the way, there are some people saying I am a genius. It's not me. I wouldn't say that. But people are saying...


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## Lilijana (Dec 17, 2019)

Yes it's bizarre to think that anyone should praise _Missa Solemnis_ as much as the absolutely brilliant, magnificent work _Hymnen_ is. 

You might like to read what Lawrence Kramer has to say about the structural style Stockhausen was developing in the 50s and 60s regarding some of his more bewildering electronic works. Stockhausen was interested actually in taking a rather different approach to how a listener experiences _time_ in music itself. Where we perceive a 'beginning' or an 'ending' and a trajectory from point A to point B in other western classical compositions don't really apply to quite a lot of Stockhausen's works, and it might take a bit of time to adjust to what he calls 'moment form.'

It might interest you to explore other extracts from Licht and then Klang to also get a bit more of an awareness of his more mature approach to instrumentation, form and theatre.

_Oktophonie_ is an extract of electronic music from Licht and is structurally (or temporally? how we talk about the aesthetics of the experience of time passing in music?) a little more similar to most western classical music in that there are times where phrases of music feel like they have beginnings, endings and that they are _heading_ somewhere.






You might find this wikipedia article on Moment Form of some interest as well


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

DaveM said:


> People apparently say the strangest things. Why would a comparison be made with Missa Solemnis of all things? According to the Wiki, Pierre Boulez once declared, "Stockhausen is the greatest living composer, and the only one whom I recognize as my peer" (credited to Anonymous)


At the time of Pli selon Pli, Boulez and Stockhausen were friends, and the correspondence is good to read. I think the friendship cooled off after that.


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## Lilijana (Dec 17, 2019)

I probably wouldn't have been friends with Stockhausen either tbh


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

When I saw Donnerstag aus Licht he was directing the performance in London and I met him briefly afterwards. I liked him!


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

soni said:


> Can someone please offer some help in appreciating Stockhausen's music? Ideally as many pieces as possible, since the ones I do like have convinced me of the composer's genius.


You might find it helpful to peruse the website of Stockhausen aficionado, Albrecht Moritz.

http://home.earthlink.net/~almoritz/stockhausenreviews.htm


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

composer jess said:


> Stockhausen was interested actually in taking a rather different approach to how a listener experiences _time_ in music itself. Where we perceive a 'beginning' or an 'ending' and a trajectory from point A to point B in other western classical compositions don't really apply to quite a lot of Stockhausen's works, and it might take a bit of time to adjust to what he calls 'moment form.'


Don't know what that means or why I would care to find out. It's like an answer to a question I never asked to solve a problem I never had. I'm not sure why I am supposed to learn a new reality conceived in the mind of someone who, for me, lived in a parallel music universe. To me, classical music is supposed to resonate with something we can readily identify. For instance, as complex as it is, the Große Fugue 'spoke' to me on the first hearing, no instruction required.


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## Lilijana (Dec 17, 2019)

DaveM said:


> Don't know what that means or why I would care to find out. It's like an answer to a question I never asked to solve a problem I never had. I'm not sure why I am supposed to learn a new reality conceived in the mind of someone who, for me, lived in a parallel music universe. To me, classical music is supposed to resonate with something we can readily identify. For instance, as complex as it is, the Große Fugue 'spoke' to me on the first hearing, no instruction required.


I am aware that you did not ask the question that soni was asking, but that's cool to know what resonates with you i guess.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I get where you're all coming from.
The _Missa Solemnis_ I can understand. It's got music, it's got singing, it's got melodies and harmonies and real word lyrics.
But that Stockmarket? Totally confounding. Never could crack it. I suspect the musical equivalent would be a real mess of seemingly random noise and confusions. And that d----d ringing bell! Glad I don't have to listen to it. Glad, too, we have the _Missa Solemnis_.
One's a winner. The other? A money losing proposition.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I like a lot of Stockhausen. There are few works I can't get into like Hymnen, Stimmung and a few others.

Gruppen loses a lot of its effect, I heard, from recording vs Live, where there are 3 orchestras from different points relative to the audience. I thought Kontrapunkt is very similar in style to Boulez's Le Marteau sans Maitre.

Kontakte is a favourite with its momentum of different combinations sound. Mikrophonie I is also a favourite, check out this video (I find the visuals too distracting, and it looks a bit funny with a few guys standing around seemingly doing stuff on a whim, but the commercial recording sounds great). Agree Gesang der Junglinge a masterpiece. I think what is most interesting of Stockhausen and how his music holds together for me, is that rhythm seems to given higher priority over actual pitches, and the way the way the timbres sound in rhythm. But with Gesang, I feel pitches are given a higher priority than typical for Stockhausen.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

SONNET CLV said:


> The _Missa Solemnis_ I can understand. It's got music, it's got singing, it's got melodies and harmonies and real word lyrics. But that Stockmarket? Totally confounding. Never could crack it. I suspect the musical equivalent would be a real mess of seemingly random noise and confusions. And that d----d ringing bell! Glad I don't have to listen to it. Glad, too, we have the _Missa Solemnis_.
> One's a winner. The other? A money losing proposition.


As the Variety headline says, "Beethoven gets religion, beats drum for Jesus and big bucks, goes gold."

Yes, Stockhausen was a bit less successful. "Karlheinz's headscratcher sinks, millions don't care."

Perhaps it was a matter of attitude? (see 1:01)


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

DaveM said:


> ...I ...I never asked to solve a problem I never had. I'm not sure why I am supposed to learn a new reality conceived in the mind of someone who, for me, lived in a parallel music universe. To me, classical music is supposed to resonate with something we can readily identify. For instance, as complex as it is, the Große Fugue 'spoke' to me on the first hearing, no instruction required.


Have you heard Hymnen?


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

soni said:


> I love Stockhausen's Gesang der Jünglinge, Mantra, Refrain, Klavierstück X and the helicopter quartet - I'm convinced all 5 of these are masterpieces and Mantra belongs in my desert island collection. However, the rest of his music leaves me in complete bewilderment.
> 
> Take Zeitmasse for instance - to my ears this sounds like the closest to playing random notes you can get while still retaining a vaguely Webernian sound. Or Gruppen - I just can't warm to that piece and to me it doesn't sound "nice", despite my ears being attuned to serialism and dissonance. Then there are the electronic compositions - I am told (by Wikipedia) that Hymnen, which consists of extracts of national anthems and electronic sounds, is thought by some to be a masterpiece on the same level as Beethoven's Missa Solemnis. Can someone please offer some help in appreciating Stockhausen's music? Ideally as many pieces as possible, since the ones I do like have convinced me of the composer's genius.


Im glad to say that no one seriously has ever said that Hymnen is a masterpiece "on the same level" as Missa Solemnis. The wiki article just says that someone said it's a masterpiece comparable to Missa Solemnis, Mahler 8 and Moses and Aaron. I can see that, at least for Mahler 8 and Missa Solemnis. And I don't think it's a complement to the work.

The defensive reaction on the part of the Ken etc was misplaced.

I've only ever heard Hymnen III. I don't like it, I find it has an overblown and saccarine quality - that's what I felt about Donnerstag aux Licht too. This music feels safe, and feels pompous, a sellout compared to his more radical work.

Hymnen III and Donnerstag make me think that there's a strong relationship between some of Stockhausen's music, and Wagner.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Mandryka said:


> Hymnen III and Donnerstag make me think that there's a strong relationship between some of Stockhausen's music, and Wagner.


I really hadn't considered that, Mandryka, but now that you mention it, "Gotterdammerung" and "goddamn dung" do sound similar.

And isn't Donnerstag one of Santa's reindeer?

:tiphat:


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## soni (Jul 3, 2018)

RICK RIEKERT said:


> You might find it helpful to peruse the website of Stockhausen aficionado, Albrecht Moritz.
> 
> http://home.earthlink.net/~almoritz/stockhausenreviews.htm


Thanks, exactly what I wanted! Very inspiring articles.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I am not one to study or read up on a composer before I have felt an interest ... which comes from listening to the music. I am often very ignorant of context and history for music of the last 70 years (one reason why threads like this can be interesting to me). When I was a "young rebel" (in the later 1970s) and went through a period of not listening to classical music (after a childhood filled with it) largely because I was always with people and classical music was not something we did. But Stockhausen was one of those composers who was considered "cool" so I listened to quite a lot of it back then. I loved it and it is now part of me! But I have no idea really about what he thought he was doing or was trying to do. I just enjoyed the sounds and the overall feel (structure-satisfaction etc.) of the music.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> I really hadn't considered that, Mandryka, but now that you mention it, "Gotterdammerung" and "goddamn dung" do sound similar.
> 
> And isn't Donnerstag one of Santa's reindeer?
> 
> :tiphat:


Cruel, unfair and unjustified I cry Wooduck...but bloody funny too.... I have it on good authority that Boulez picked up mistakes during rehearsals for Gruppen once - no wonder he was known by English musos as the French Correction.

I once heard Stimmung in Liverpool's Anglican Cathedral (a huge gothic space) surrounded by speakers and in the dark apart from a small lamp for the singers who squatted in the centre of the circularly seated audience. It was a concert I've never forgot and for me, the music only works best with that sense of theatre in the performance. Would I buy it on CD...no.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

mikeh375 said:


> Cruel, unfair and unjustified I cry Wooduck...but bloody funny too.... I.


Don't encourage him


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

soni said:


> I love Stockhausen's Gesang der Jünglinge, Mantra, Refrain, Klavierstück X and the helicopter quartet - I'm convinced all 5 of these are masterpieces and Mantra belongs in my desert island collection. However, the rest of his music leaves me in complete bewilderment.
> 
> Take Zeitmasse for instance - to my ears this sounds like the closest to playing random notes you can get while still retaining a vaguely Webernian sound.


I did extensive reading on Zeitmasse (at least from all my liner notes :lol and, besides the fact in 1968 that Frank Zappa expressed an admiration for it, my initial liking of the piece was reinforced by these items:

•I found out that Zeitmasse contained instructions such as "play as many notes as your breath will allow" and other "human" instructions involving the player's perception and ability, which distinguished it _clearly_ from Webern or other serial music. This is very "Stockhausen" to include this human element.

•Stockhausen's description of his first hearing of serial music as being like "music of the stars." This is very "Stockhausen" to make this reference to the cosmos. Yes, just this one quote affected me greatly.

•I just fell in love with the sheer sound of it, at first hearing. I love woodwinds.

•Part of my adoration of Stockhausen is due to other factors. You need to realize that his music was exceedingly rare (in my area) back in the vinyl days of the late 1960s and early 1970s. Some of my fondest memories are of rummaging through the cut-out record bins in K-Mart, getting highest-quality Deutsche Grammofon vinyl Stockhausen records for $1.99. This included Gruppen, Mantra, Kurzwellen, Prozession, Kontakte, Song of the Youths and others. Zeitmasse was only available as a Columbia Odyssey record conducted by Robert Craft (the same one that Zappa mentioned).

The record stores in those days were usually large department stores like K-Mart, Fed-Mart, Walgreen's, Murphy's, TG & Y, Gibson's, and others, who were concerned with selling records; so their classical sections, if they had such, were small. The cut-out bins were usually the only source of less-popular classical records.

So the difference between you and I may be that "I had to walk five miles in the snow" to get my Stockhausen.



> Or Gruppen - I just can't warm to that piece and to me it doesn't sound "nice", despite my ears being attuned to serialism and dissonance. Then there are the electronic compositions - I am told (by Wikipedia) that Hymnen, which consists of extracts of national anthems and electronic sounds, is thought by some to be a masterpiece on the same level as Beethoven's Missa Solemnis. Can someone please offer some help in appreciating Stockhausen's music? Ideally as many pieces as possible, since the ones I do like have convinced me of the composer's genius.


To tell you the truth, Gruppen was never one of my favorite Stockhausen works, and I have the recording mentioned. I still have the vinyl LP as well.
You also mention Hymnen, and that's absolutely at the top of my list. I love that one.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

This page actually explains how to read his score for Mikrophonie, which could help in appreciating (or deprecating ) his music.

http://stockhausenspace.blogspot.com/2014/05/opus-15-mikrophonie-i.html


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

When art or music is presented or seen as a series of relatively simple well-defined steps or procedures, it seems to open up the door to criticism, because the assumption is that "art" is supposed to come from the grand vision or tortured soul of an artist. It may be more like science, or a cookbook, just a set of procedures and steps.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

soni said:


> I love Stockhausen's Gesang der Jünglinge, Mantra, Refrain, Klavierstück X and the helicopter quartet - I'm convinced all 5 of these are masterpieces and Mantra belongs in my desert island collection. However, the rest of his music leaves me in complete bewilderment.
> 
> Take Zeitmasse for instance - to my ears this sounds like the closest to playing random notes you can get while still retaining a vaguely Webernian sound. Or Gruppen - I just can't warm to that piece and to me it doesn't sound "nice", despite my ears being attuned to serialism and dissonance. Then there are the electronic compositions - I am told (by Wikipedia) that Hymnen, which consists of extracts of national anthems and electronic sounds, is thought by some to be a masterpiece on the same level as Beethoven's Missa Solemnis. Can someone please offer some help in appreciating Stockhausen's music? Ideally as many pieces as possible, since the ones I do like have convinced me of the composer's genius.


Agon was a big influence on Stockhausen, in Zeitmasse and in Grupen and in the wind quintet.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

millionrainbows said:


> When art or music is presented or seen as a series of relatively simple well-defined steps or procedures, it seems to open up the door to criticism, because the assumption is that "art" is supposed to come from the grand vision or tortured soul of an artist. It may be more like science, or a cookbook, just a set of procedures and steps.


The Betty Crocker Composition Book? My well-worn copy still has turmeric stains in the raga section.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

A cookbook takes care of the formal aspects.

Where does emotional content in music come from? It might be that different genres of music have different playbooks, which are tacit agreements, or at the very least, shared universal human behaviors, which are converted to data and conveyed via performers.


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## soni (Jul 3, 2018)

soni said:


> Or Gruppen - I just can't warm to that piece and to me it doesn't sound "nice", despite my ears being attuned to serialism and dissonance.


I take this back. Just got a CD of Gruppen from a local record shop - it's really growing on me and has some incredible sounds.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

I've heard a similarity in Luzifers Traum and the Helicopter quartet! They are both from the operas and after a while has someone counting out loud. To me it sounds funny, but I'm sure there's a meaning from Stockhausen or is he just showing off counting skills?  Anyone have a clue? I try to hear a piece of Stockhausen every day, these days. I think his music is wonderful! <3


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> I've heard a similarity in Luzifers Traum and the Helicopter quartet! They are both from the operas and after a while has someone counting out loud. To me it sounds funny, but I'm sure there's a meaning from Stockhausen or is he just showing off counting skills?  Anyone have a clue?


According to Robin Maconie, the excessive counting encountered in the music associated with Luzifer is intended to signify the character's obsessive preoccupation with rationality.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

soni said:


> I take this back. Just got a CD of Gruppen from a local record shop - it's really growing on me and has some incredible sounds.


I'm glad to hear that it is clicking with you. I love Gruppen. I have the Peter Eotvos recording.


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## soni (Jul 3, 2018)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> I've heard a similarity in Luzifers Traum and the Helicopter quartet! They are both from the operas and after a while has someone counting out loud. To me it sounds funny, but I'm sure there's a meaning from Stockhausen or is he just showing off counting skills?  Anyone have a clue? I try to hear a piece of Stockhausen every day, these days. I think his music is wonderful! <3


I love the counting in the helicopter quartet too haha! As a Christian though I'm a bit uncomfortable listening to anything else from Licht, not least the music about Lucifer!


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

RICK RIEKERT said:


> According to Robin Maconie, the excessive counting encountered in the music associated with Luzifer is intended to signify the character's obsessive preoccupation with rationality.


I had always assumed that God was more rational than anything else, perfectly rational. Silly me. Isn't rationality a perfection in Aquinas's way of thinking?


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## soni (Jul 3, 2018)

OK wow, I'm really starting to get the hang of Hymnen too. That piece is quite something...
Stockhausen is full of surprises...


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## soni (Jul 3, 2018)

And Zeitmasse is brilliant too. I think I'm now fully convinced by Stockhausen's music.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

I have a project: "Stockhausen everyday" and I'm working my way through Sunday from Light, scene by scene. I'm just over halfway and have 2 hours 20 minutes left. He is my latest "discovery". My idea was to get used to electronic music and I guess I am now  
Did you get the help you wanted? Maybe you got it from Sirius!


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## soni (Jul 3, 2018)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> I have a project: "Stockhausen everyday" and I'm working my way through Sunday from Light, scene by scene. I'm just over halfway and have 2 hours 20 minutes left. He is my latest "discovery". My idea was to get used to electronic music and I guess I am now
> Did you get the help you wanted? Maybe you got it from Sirius!


Haha! I think what helped for me was just listening to the pieces again, and then it somehow 'clicked'.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Deleting this post b/c it contained an error.


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## soni (Jul 3, 2018)

Captainnumber36 said:


> This thread got me to explore his piano Preludes, and I was floored!


Good or bad way?


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Deleting this post b/c of an error.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

You mean the klavierstucke?


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> You mean the klavierstucke?


I was listening to Shostakovich's Preludes, oops! But there is Stockhausen on this same CD, and I believe they are the Klavierstucke.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

The Shostakovich op 34 preludes are very good, I’m not surprised you liked them.


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## Andrew Kenneth (Feb 17, 2018)

Mandryka;1756561 Hymnen III and Donnerstag make me think that there's a strong relationship between some of Stockhausen's music said:


> I've never heard Hymnen III, but Donnertstag reminded me of the 3rd act of Siegfried.
> (I have a small Stockhousen collection on cd. My favourite cd's are Donnerstag (dg-4cd) and Samstag (dg - 4cd) , Michaels's Reise (from Donnerstag) on ECM (1cd) and the Helicopter quartet (from Mittwoch)


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

millionrainbows said:


> When art or music is presented or seen as a series of relatively simple well-defined steps or procedures, it seems to open up the door to criticism, because the assumption is that "art" is supposed to come from the grand vision or tortured soul of an artist. It may be more like science, or a cookbook, just a set of procedures and steps.


I think that is probably right and it shows what is wrong with focusing on a composer's methods before you have worked out whether you like the music or not. It is better to listen to the music and if it works for you then it works for you. Then you might take an interest in how it was achieved. But the method of composition tells you little on its own. There may have been hundreds of composers who used methods that Stockhausen pioneered (to the extent that he did pioneer methods) but who didn't produce anything that is as rewarding. There have been tens of thousands of composers who have used the methods of the great composers of the past but not arrived at the same results.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Boulez was against art which was " a series of relatively simple well-defined steps or procedures." He experimented with that idea in the early days, most notably with Notations 1a. But he completely rejected it after that for this reason: he thought that the procedures were imperceptable from the audience's point of view, so the audience heard something formless. Just contrast Notations 1a with the Rituel or Originel and you'll see his retreat back into thematic music is clear.

I would argue that Xenakis rejected procedural music also, at least in so far as I understand his actual working methods at Ircam. 

Boulez also believed that "art" comes from the grand vision an artist. This is why he rejected Cage's totally aleotoric music like the etudes, he thought thay encapsulated a denial of composer creativity. I think Stockhausen agreed with Boulez on this. 

My own feeling is that art which is totally algorithmic and totally aleotoric is a straw man. The only composers I know who really embraced it are Cage and Reich -- and arguably not in their most successful music. Am I missing someone - Louis Andriesen maybe? Some early Stockhausen? Yes it exists, but it's a blip in the history, and not a very important one.


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## soni (Jul 3, 2018)

Mandryka said:


> The only composers I know who really embraced it are Cage and Reich -- and arguably not in their most successful music.


What do you consider Cage's most successful music? The Cage works that have had the strongest effect on me (Two2 and HPSCHD) fall under this category.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Clearly (I think) 4,33 is the most successful piece of music of the past 100 years, maybe the greatest composition of all time, because it just completely made everyone rethink the nature of music. You can still sense its seismic consequences in discussions in places like this forum. But that's not what you meant. 

Two2 is great, but are you sure it's totally procedural? I like Four just as much.

And you know, some of the performances of the Song Books on record, they're fabulous creative music making.


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## soni (Jul 3, 2018)

Mandryka said:


> Clearly (I think) 4,33 is the most successful piece of music of the past 100 years, maybe the greatest composition of all time, because it just completely made everyone rethink the nature of music. You can still sense its seismic consequences in discussions in places like this forum. But that's not what you meant.
> 
> Two2 is great, but are you sure it's totally procedural? I like Four just as much.
> 
> And you know, some of the performances of the Song Books on record, they're fabulous creative music making.


Yeah I love 4'33" which is by far his best work, but I was excluding that work as I think it should be discussed separately from Cage's other music.

Have you listened to the anothertimbre recording of Two2? It's absolutely beautiful. I think all of Cage's number pieces were composed using a computerized version of the I Ching, which I believe would count as totally aleatoric music. Haven't actually listened to the Song Books - I'll add that to my listening list.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I have indeed heard the Knoop and Thomas Two squared. Maybe if Knoop would record the etudes it would make me change my mind about them!

I didn’t know that all the number pieces were totally aleatoric. In truth I don’t know much about Cage’s methods, if there are any good things to read on them, let me know!


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## soni (Jul 3, 2018)

Mandryka said:


> I have indeed heard the Knoop and Thomas Two squared. Maybe if Knoop would record the etudes it would make me change my mind about them!
> 
> I didn't know that all the number pieces were totally aleatoric. In truth I don't know much about Cage's methods, if there are any good things to read on them, let me know!


Rob Haskins' website is useful for information about John Cage and his methods.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> Clearly (I think) *4,33 is the most successful piece of music of the past 100 years, maybe the greatest composition of all time, * because it just completely made everyone rethink the nature of music. You can still sense its seismic consequences in discussions in places like this forum. But that's not what you meant.
> 
> Two2 is great, but are you sure it's totally procedural? I like Four just as much.
> 
> And you know, some of the performances of the Song Books on record, they're fabulous creative music making.





soni said:


> Yeah I love* 4'33" which is by far his best work*, but I was excluding that work as I think it should be discussed separately from Cage's other music.
> 
> Have you listened to the anothertimbre recording of Two2? It's absolutely beautiful. I think all of Cage's number pieces were composed using a computerized version of the I Ching, which I believe would count as totally aleatoric music. Haven't actually listened to the Song Books - I'll add that to my listening list.


Come on, that's an insult to some really great works by great composers. Ok, it's a nice idea. Thought provoking exercise, but it's not music (at least that can be compared to others), least of all a composition.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Phil loves classical said:


> it's not music .


It's schmusic.

cm;cmsed;lv ds;.l vdxf;.lv mfcdx; nmdf;.lx mfcd/;. m


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Rodgers and Hammerstein used the same concept as Cage, but actually composed music (based on that concept) that required skill.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

DaveM said:


> Rodgers and Hammerstein used the same concept as Cage, but actually composed music (based on that concept) that required skill.


Much appreciated


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## soni (Jul 3, 2018)

Phil loves classical said:


> Come on, that's an insult to some really great works by great composers. Ok, it's a nice idea. Thought provoking exercise, but it's not music (at least that can be compared to others), least of all a composition.


Sure maybe 4'33" is not music, but it's not a "thought provoking exercise" either. Whatever it is, I love it.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

soni said:


> Sure maybe 4'33" is not music, but it's not a "thought provoking exercise" either. Whatever it is, I love it.


Cage was heavily influenced by Zen Buddhism. So it's no wonder he thought 4'33" was his most important composition, and as probably the highest form of music. In the highest state of enlightenment there is nothingness, time, space, etc. Music, silence is all the same (a.k.a. there is no such thing as silence), as he wrote "I want to ... compose a piece of uninterrupted silence and sell it to the Muzak Co. It will be three or four minutes long-these being the standard lengths of canned music."



DaveM said:


> Rodgers and Hammerstein used the same concept as Cage, but actually composed music (based on that concept) that required skill.


Wow, if only Cage thought of that. Using music to refer to itself in the third person in the lyrics. Mind boggling.


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