# Favorite Siegfried Bruinhilde



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

You may ask why do I post this thread when we just did the Immolation Scene? It is because this scene lies higher, which is perilous for many great Wagnerian sopranos. I don't think the Immolation Scene goes about an A#. This has several B's and C's. For myself, this is a complex answer with no clear winner. I have a live recording of the scene with Nilsson which, of course is great, but the high note at the end is the finest of Nilsson's career on disc to my knowledge and the voice is both like a laser beam but full throated at the same time and may never be equaled in this scene. Varnay in 55 was fabulous with a rich middle and a soaring C at the climax. Overall, my favorite version is Farrell in a studio recording of the scene. Her voice is just so bloody beautiful, the top notes okay, but the highlight are the rich lower lying passages where she has the most beautiful and powerful chest notes I've heard her do. Who do you like??


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Forgive my spelling in the Poll. I can't change it now. I love Traubel but she doesn't have the notes for this scene.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

no Frieda Lieder 
oh well, from the list, definitely Flagstad
PS: Varnay was as mezzo as Robert Merrill was baritone. she should have stuck to lower rep


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

> Overall, my favourite version is Farrell in a studio recording of the scene. Her voice is just so bloody beautiful, the top notes okay, but the highlight are the rich lower lying passages where she has the most beautiful and powerful chest notes I've heard her do. Who do you like??


Mine to, stunning:tiphat:


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> no Frieda Lieder
> oh well, from the list, definitely Flagstad
> PS: Varnay was as mezzo as Robert Merrill was baritone. she should have stuck to lower rep


I wanted to add Lieder but once you pick the number for your poll you are stuck. I do offer a different take on Varnay: she is considered by many of the best music critics to be the best Elektra on disc and that is definitely not a mezzo role. Have you heard it? It might change your mind. Her high notes are jawdropping. The color was definitely mezzo but her top was gleaming and powerful. Also check out her Verdi on Youtube. She was much better at Verdi than Nilsson IMHO. Her voice shifted down as she aged. Varnay was the same age as Nilsson but was singing big Wagner roles at 22 at the Met. She likely could have lasted longer as a soprano if she had waited till later to undertake these taxing roles.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Helge Denersch is my favourite in Karajan's Siegfried. Karajan's account of the awakening with the BPO and the soprano's response has a radiance that is unmatched. She is also rather more of a womanly Brunnhilde than some which I prefer. Incidentally, in Bohm's account of the awakening the great Nilsson appears to have problems with pitch. It was, of course, recorded live, but I would have thought the engineers could have cobbled together something better from other performances. Perhaps it just shows how difficult it is for a soprano to pitch those notes 'cold' as it were!


----------



## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Seattleoperafan said:


> *You may ask why do I post this thread when we just did the Immolation Scene? *It is because this scene lies higher, which is perilous for many great Wagnerian sopranos. I don't think the Immolation Scene goes about an A#. This has several B's and C's. For myself, this is a complex answer with no clear winner. I have a live recording of the scene with Nilsson which, of course is great, but the high note at the end is the finest of Nilsson's career on disc to my knowledge and the voice is both like a laser beam but full throated at the same time and may never be equaled in this scene. Varnay in 55 was fabulous with a rich middle and a soaring C at the climax. Overall, my favorite version is Farrell in a studio recording of the scene. Her voice is just so bloody beautiful, the top notes okay, but the highlight are the rich lower lying passages where she has the most beautiful and powerful chest notes I've heard her do. Who do you like??


Another reason to have another thread is that the two scences have a completely different emotional vibe along with the additional technical vocal requirements you mention:

- the immolation is regret, longing, sadness, final ultimate sacrifice etc
- awakening of Brunnhilde is excitement, joy of love, a bright future etc

I love the opening theme and the first couple lines sung by Brunnhilde, like awakening from a peaceful dream on a joyous beautiful morning the plucked harp strings like birds singing *"heil dir sonne"
*














Besides the stereo sound 55 Keilberth gives Astrid a fresh young lyric voiced hero Windgassen in better voice than later Solti and Bohm Rings, voices that make the opera gods smile.....


----------



## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

I vote for Varnay in 55 Keilberth too.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I was very uncertain who I would choose here, having grown up with Nilsson's thrilling vocalism in the Solti _Siegfried_ from 1962 and the lovely 1949 recording with Eileen Farrell in her youthful prime, and tending to find other performances wanting in one respect or another, whether it's a relative lack of vocal beauty (Varnay, Modl, and Jones) or heroic power (Behrens). I adore Frida Leider, but the sound quality and absurdly rushed tempos on the 1927 78rpm discs make a true comparison difficult. I've also admired Helen Traubel, in a live performance from 1951, who by that date still had everything one could ask for up to B-flat but not above, which is a disadvantage in this scene.

Today I decided to listen to the entire opera _Siegfried_ from the Furtwangler-led La Scala performances of 1950. This was Kirsten Flagstad's last Brunnhilde in the opera house, and she was 55 years old. Well, to put it mildly, I was stunned. The way that unique voice poured out of her with never-failing opulence and power just made me realize all over again that there hasn't been a sound like that from a human throat in the 65 years since; the sheer tonal beauty and technical consistency of it were jaw-dropping. And, unlike two years later in her _Tristan_ recording when she was no longer attempting top C at all, she took all the high notes here except the final one. But it's OK: when I want that final high C I'll listen to Birgit, but otherwise, I've got to say, Kirsten's my girl.


----------



## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

It's kind of a bummer to be so incredibly predictable, but as usual in any discussion of Brunnhilde, I like Nilsson slightly more than Flagstad, then a pretty big gap before seriously considering anyone else. Agree with Duck that the Flagstad on the Furt/Scala is exceptionally fine--much better than in the Met prewar recordings, although she does skip the final C. As usual, Flagstad is more beautiful but a little chilly, Nilsson more intense and dramatic.

I do like the essentially lyric types more in Siegfried than in Gotterdammerung or Walkure. Behrens, Evans, Dernesch lack the bite and the ferocity of the hochdramatischer sopranos, and that's much more of a problem in Walkure and Gotterdammerung than in Siegfried.

The more I listen to Varnay, the more I dislike her. The extremely dark, matronly coloring, the constant scooping which alters the melodic line--she's maybe my least favorite of the Brunnhildes in my collection now, even though she's also the most well-represented from all those live Bayreuth recordings.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

howlingfantods said:


> It's kind of a bummer to be so incredibly predictable, but as usual in any discussion of Brunnhilde, I like Nilsson slightly more than Flagstad, then a pretty big gap before seriously considering anyone else. Agree with Duck that the Flagstad on the Furt/Scala is exceptionally fine--much better than in the Met prewar recordings, although she does skip the final C. As usual, Flagstad is more beautiful but a little chilly, Nilsson more intense and dramatic.
> 
> I do like the essentially lyric types more in Siegfried than in Gotterdammerung or Walkure. Behrens, Evans, Dernesch lack the bite and the ferocity of the hochdramatischer sopranos, and that's much more of a problem in Walkure and Gotterdammerung than in Siegfried.
> 
> The more I listen to Varnay, the more I dislike her. The extremely dark, matronly coloring, the constant scooping which alters the melodic line--she's maybe my least favorite of the Brunnhildes in my collection now, even though she's also the most well-represented from all those live Bayreuth recordings.


Flagstad's cool temperament was her only real fault, and it's not insignificant. I do sometimes find myself loving her, vocally and almost personally (she was a nice lady and very pretty too!), but often wish she'd work up a little more heat in her performances. She was capable of getting excited with conductors and colleagues who inspired her, and Furtwangler had the ability to bring out the best in her.

I hate to say it, knowing how many fans she has, but I'm delighted to find someone whose reaction to Varnay's singing agrees with mine. Her heavy, mezzo-like timbre, and her heavy-lifting attack on note after note - beginning the note without vibrato, scooping upward and increasing the wobble to the end of it, breaking it off with a sort of glottal attack in reverse...Sorry, folks but it just isn't good classical singing, regardless of the dramatic effect to which she can often put it. Perhaps she should have gone into jazz. And her high notes? They may be impressive in their hugeness, but my God they're cutting enough to rip the hair off your chest. Shall we call this "mal canto"? She sounded mature ("matronly") even as a young singer, and to me doesn't begin to suggest the young valkyrie of the _Ring_ or the young princess Isolde. I find her best suited to "character roles" - unbeautiful characters, preferably evil or decadent ones - and can really enjoy her as Ortrud, Klytemnestra, and Kostelnicka.

There. I've said it. Now we have to talk about Martha Modl...


----------



## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

The calm, warm, radiating joy of Varnay's 1955 "Heil dir, Sonne!" - wow. The excitement of her "O kindischer Held, O herrlicher Knabe, du hehrster Taten töriger Hort!" of the same performance - wow again, only surpassed by her "Siegfried, Siegfried zurück!" expecting Siegfried back in Götterdämmerung of the same year.

But then there is Flagstad's unbeatable rich purity in this high role, I'm thinking of 1937 and still in 1950 (Flagstad still with one high C in the final scene!). 

So one vote for Flagstad.


----------



## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> Flagstad's cool temperament was her only real fault, and it's not insignificant. I do sometimes find myself loving her, vocally and almost personally (she was a nice lady and very pretty too!), but often wish she'd work up a little more heat in her performances. She was capable of getting excited with conductors and colleagues who inspired her, and Furtwangler had the ability to bring out the best in her.
> 
> I hate to say it, knowing how many fans she has, but I'm delighted to find someone whose reaction to Varnay's singing agrees with mine. Her heavy, mezzo-like timbre, and her heavy-lifting attack on note after note - beginning the note without vibrato, scooping upward and increasing the wobble to the end of it, breaking it off with a sort of glottal attack in reverse...*Sorry, folks but it just isn't good classical singing, regardless of the dramatic effect to which she can often put it. Perhaps she should have gone into jazz*. And her high notes? They may be impressive in their hugeness, but my God they're cutting enough to rip the hair off your chest. Shall we call this "mal canto"? She sounded mature ("matronly") even as a young singer, and to me doesn't begin to suggest the young valkyrie of the _Ring_ or the young princess Isolde. I find her best suited to "character roles" - unbeautiful characters, preferably evil or decadent ones - and can really enjoy her as Ortrud, Klytemnestra, and Kostelnicka.
> 
> There. I've said it. Now we have to talk about Martha Modl...


You guys are killing me, unthinkable that I could be without all those magnificent Brunnhilde peformances of Astrid every year at Bayreuth during the 1950s, we must agree to disagree on this matter..........

It may come as no surprise that I like Modl also just not as much as Varnay


----------



## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Flagstad's cool temperament was her only real fault, and it's not insignificant. I do sometimes find myself loving her, vocally and almost personally (she was a nice lady and very pretty too!), but often wish she'd work up a little more heat in her performances. She was capable of getting excited with conductors and colleagues who inspired her, and Furtwangler had the ability to bring out the best in her.
> 
> I hate to say it, knowing how many fans she has, but I'm delighted to find someone whose reaction to Varnay's singing agrees with mine. Her heavy, mezzo-like timbre, and her heavy-lifting attack on note after note - beginning the note without vibrato, scooping upward and increasing the wobble to the end of it, breaking it off with a sort of glottal attack in reverse...Sorry, folks but it just isn't good classical singing, regardless of the dramatic effect to which she can often put it. Perhaps she should have gone into jazz. And her high notes? They may be impressive in their hugeness, but my God they're cutting enough to rip the hair off your chest. Shall we call this "mal canto"? She sounded mature ("matronly") even as a young singer, and to me doesn't begin to suggest the young valkyrie of the _Ring_ or the young princess Isolde. I find her best suited to "character roles" - unbeautiful characters, preferably evil or decadent ones - and can really enjoy her as Ortrud, Klytemnestra, and *Kostelnicka*.
> 
> There. I've said it. Now we have to talk about Martha Modl...


Well, at least I am glad that we agree on her Kostelnicka .


----------



## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

interestedin said:


> *The calm, warm, radiating joy of Varnay's 1955 "Heil dir, Sonne!" - wow*. The excitement of her "O kindischer Held, O herrlicher Knabe, du hehrster Taten töriger Hort!" of the same performance - wow again, only surpassed by her "Siegfried, Siegfried zurück!" expecting Siegfried back in Götterdämmerung of the same year.
> 
> But then there is Flagstad's unbeatable rich purity in this high role, I'm thinking of 1937 and still in 1950 (Flagstad still with one high C in the final scene!).
> 
> So one vote for Flagstad.


Wholeheartedly agree.


----------



## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> Today I decided to listen to the entire opera _Siegfried_ from the Furtwangler-led La Scala performances of 1950. This was Kirsten Flagstad's last Brunnhilde in the opera house, and she was 55 years old. Well, to put it mildly, I was stunned. The way that unique voice poured out of her with never-failing opulence and power just made me realize all over again that there hasn't been a sound like that from a human throat in the 65 years since; the sheer tonal beauty and technical consistency of it were jaw-dropping. And, unlike two years later in her _Tristan_ recording when she was no longer attempting top C at all, she took all the high notes here except the final one. But it's OK: when I want that final high C I'll listen to Birgit, but otherwise, I've got to say, Kirsten's my girl.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Well, all you Varnay fans, I'll just be quiet now...



...except to say that I admire her acting. Otherwise, speaking as a singer and a connoisseur of vocal technique...

No. I'll just be quiet.


----------



## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

Am I correct that her acting can only be seen in Elektra, Salome and Jenufa today?


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

interestedin said:


> Oddly, I can't stand Varnay's Isolde (except maybe for her 1953 Mild und leise) for the reasons Woodduck mentions, but I would never want to live without Varnay's Brünnhilde where her flaws don't bother me at all, because of which (and because of Elektra in Elektra) I worship her almost as much as Kirsten Flagstad.
> 
> Am I correct that her acting can only be seen in Elektra, Salome and Jenufa today?


That is all I can find.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Well, all you Varnay fans, I'll just be quiet now...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A vocal purist would not like Varnay. She grew on me. Now I am wild about her: the distinctive sound, the rich mezzo lower half of the voice with it's wonderful colors, the awesome size of the voice and the soaring top. The scooping was a technique she must have used to unify the disparate parts of her complex voice. It is a voice like Callas... it is polarizing. I can understand your position but she has seduced me nevertheless. Cheers.


----------



## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> A vocal purist would not like Varnay. She grew on me. Now I am wild about her: the distinctive sound, the rich mezzo lower half of the voice with it's wonderful colors, the awesome size of the voice and the soaring top. The scooping was a technique she must have used to unify the disparate parts of her complex voice. It is a voice like Callas... it is polarizing. I can understand your position but she has seduced me nevertheless. Cheers.


I think Callas and Varnay are a poor comparison. Callas had a naturally unusual voice but exceptional technique. Varnay had a naturally lovely instrument which decayed rapidly over time and had a number of affectations significant enough to consider major technical flaws. This is why I like Callas more each time I listen to her, and Varnay less.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> A vocal purist would not like Varnay. She grew on me. Now I am wild about her: the distinctive sound, the rich mezzo lower half of the voice with it's wonderful colors, the awesome size of the voice and the soaring top. The scooping was a technique she must have used to unify the disparate parts of her complex voice. It is a voice like Callas... it is polarizing. I can understand your position but she has seduced me nevertheless. Cheers.


I heard Varnay for the first time in the '60s, when I was age 17, in Bayreuth performances relayed from Bavarian Radio. I already knew Traubel, Nilsson, Leider, Flagstad and Farrell as Wagnerian sopranos on recordings I owned, and I knew enough about singing to know that theirs were great voices. When I heard Varnay's heavy, harsh voice, with top notes that grated rather than soared, I was not pleased. Over the years I've tried to make allowances for the sake of her acknowledged artistry, but I've never been able to hear her with much pleasure except in roles where her dark, opaque sound could be part and parcel of the character. I wouldn't be without her Ortrud, paired with Hermann Uhde's definitive Telramund. But I really can't empathize with an Isolde or Brunnhilde who sounds like somebody's wicked stepmother. If hers were the first woman's voice Siegfried ever heard I could well imagine him turning around and high-tailing it back down through the fire to look for more dragons to slay! I'd say that the character in the _Ring_ her battle axe of a voice is best suited to is Fricka: Varnay would have been magnificent at whittling Hans Hotter down to size.

Well, all that's a matter of taste, I suppose. But musicianship, style, and technique have more objective dimensions. I can't agree with the way you "explain" Varnay's vocal and stylistic peculiarities. The scooping is not a way of holding her voice together; I don't even know what that means. In actuality it's just a habit, and in terms of classical style, a bad habit. Corelli had it, and most of the time I can't stand him either. In saying that Varnay is like Callas, you mustn't go further than to say that she was a fine actress with an unusual sound that not everyone likes. Callas was a consummate musician; she had no bad habits. And her vocal technique and style were pure bel canto, based on a flawless legato line and extreme flexibility. Technically, Callas was a ballerina; Varnay was a hippo in a tutu, who avoided music that called for agility and grace (not implying that Wagner never does, of course). The only dramatic soprano I can think of with an equal lack of flexibility was Nilsson, but Nilsson's voice, unlike Varnay's, was easy and unforced all the way to a radiant top, and she didn't scoop and wobble. Middle period Verdi was about as far as either of them went into music that required flexibility, and of course the coloratura bits tended to be something of an approximation in both their cases.

Nothing wrong with enjoying any singer, but vocal and musical faults are what they are. It's a matter of what one knows about singing - and then, given that, what faults one wishes to tolerate. As a singer myself, I'm physically uncomfortable hearing harsh high notes, and as a musician I'm annoyed by the musically crude and careless. Varnay was not a singer for the technically and musically fastidious. Actually, though, I would love to have heard what she might have done in the hands of a bel canto taskmaster like Callas's teacher Elvira de Hidalgo. Here's Varnay in _Trovatore_ at the age of 30, in 1948:






Really not bad, even to a respectable attempt at a trill, and in Hidalgo's hands she might have gained more lightness and flexibility and eliminated the tendency to scoop and emphasize separate notes in a phrase. Obviously it was a real dramatic voice, though I think it's a question whether she might better have moved early into mezzo repertoire; the high notes were there but not exactly easy. I actually agree with someone here who said that Varnay was better in Verdi than Nilsson, but then this was Varnay very early in a long career. I doubt that she'd have done this as well ten years later. Brunnhilde would only have made a somewhat cumbersome voice more so.

Needless to say, we'd be happy to have now a dramatic soprano with a voice of the size and presence of hers. To think that for a few years up to about 1950 we could have heard Flagstad, Traubel, and Varnay singing Wagner with Lauritz Melchior (and Farrell had she chosen that path). But the dearth of _hochdramatische_ heroines was on the horizon, with only Nilsson to come as the last blazing star before the _Heldendammerung_.

And here we are. Still waiting. Or am I overlooking someone?


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

howlingfantods said:


> I think Callas and Varnay are a poor comparison. Callas had a naturally unusual voice but exceptional technique. Varnay had a naturally lovely instrument which decayed rapidly over time and had a number of affectations significant enough to consider major technical flaws. This is why I like Callas more each time I listen to her, and Varnay less.


You put it very succinctly.

:tiphat:


----------



## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> Well, all you Varnay fans, I'll just be quiet now...
> 
> ...except to say that I admire her acting. Otherwise, speaking as a singer and a connoisseur of vocal technique...
> 
> No. I'll just be quiet.


That didn't last too long...........:lol:

Duck (or HFT) if Varnay is actually as flawed a singer as you say how in the world could she be the Brunnhilde of choice thoughout the 1950s at Bayreuth the pinnacle of Wagner performing art back then with all those great singers around her.......??????

I think we even discussed in the historical thread that she was recommended by Flagstad to sing Brunnhilde at Bayreuth.........


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

It's nice we can all express our opinions without flaming like I've witnessed on other opera forums. All singers are flawed in some way or another, some much more than others. I can only speak for myself but Varnay speaks to me emotionally with her unique voice as very very few others have done. I do think that by 1960 Varnay was at the tail end of her soprano days so your first impression was not the best, Woodduck. Still, the bottom line is, Woodduck, you don't have an emotional connection with her singing and I'm sure many others don't as well. I agree with Darkangel that Bayreuth was at its artistic peak in the 50's and for them to choose Varnay as their primary dramatic soprano speaks highly of her reputation as a singer IMHO. Another great recommendation is that her Elektra on cd is favored over Nilsson's by many knowledgable critics, and that is saying a LOT> Cheers


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DarkAngel said:


> That didn't last too long...........:lol:
> 
> Duck (or HFT) if Varnay is actually as flawed a singer as you say how in the world could she be the Brunnhilde of choice thoughout the 1950s at Bayreuth the pinnacle of Wagner performing art back then with all those great singers around her.......??????
> 
> I think we even discussed in the historical thread that she was recommended by Flagstad to sing Brunnhilde at Bayreuth.........


Heroic-voiced Wagnerian sopranos were scarce as hen's teeth in the '50s. You took the best you could find. Varnay and Modl were both, by all reports, powerful performers, fine actresses, and had the vocal amplitude needed. Wieland Wagner valued the qualities they had. I would be happy to have them around now and to be able to see them. They both had notable vocal flaws and were not technically equal to Leider, Lubin, Flagstad, Traubel, or Nilsson, but they were outstanding performers in Wagnerian repertoire. Unlike Flagstad and Nilsson, who still sounded great in their mid-fifties in the dramatic soprano repertoire, neither Modl nor Varnay had a very long vocal prime, and both soon moved down to mezzo territory, taking character parts in which beauty of sound was less important. Varnay and Nilsson were the same age, but Varnay was already on the decline when Nilsson was just becoming a superstar, and I commend her for becoming a mezzo and finding a way to keep giving powerful perormances even after Nilsson had retired. Varnay and Flagstad were friends from way back; Flagstad knew Varnay as a child because Varnay's father ran the Oslo opera where Flagstad sang. I'm sure she knew Varnay could do a great job at Bayreuth, which she did.

Don't get me wrong. I respect Varnay greatly as an artist. I'm just picky about voices.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Well, all you Varnay fans, I'll just be quiet now...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree with you. keep going


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> *Heroic-voiced Wagnerian sopranos were scarce as hen's teeth in the '50s. Y*ou took the best you could find. Varnay and Modl were both, by all reports, powerful performers, fine actresses, and had the vocal amplitude needed. Wieland Wagner valued the qualities they had. I would be happy to have them around now and to be able to see them. They both had notable vocal flaws and were not technically equal to Leider, Lubin, Flagstad, Traubel, or Nilsson, but they were outstanding performers in Wagnerian repertoire. Unlike Flagstad and Nilsson, who still sounded great in their mid-fifties in the dramatic soprano repertoire, neither Modl nor Varnay had a very long vocal prime, and both soon moved down to mezzo territory, taking character parts in which beauty of sound was less important. Varnay and Nilsson were the same age, but Varnay was already on the decline when Nilsson was just becoming a superstar, and I commend her for becoming a mezzo and finding a way to keep giving powerful perormances even after Nilsson had retired. Varnay and Flagstad were friends from way back; Flagstad knew Varnay as a child because Varnay's father ran the Oslo opera where Flagstad sang. I'm sure she knew Varnay could do a great job at Bayreuth, which she did.
> 
> Don't get me wrong. I respect Varnay greatly as an artist. I'm just picky about voices.


Haven't they always been? Like heldentenors.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Haven't they always been? Like heldentenors.


Actually there were quite a few great singers of Isolde and Brunnhilde before WW I, among them Lilli Lehmann, Anna Bahr-Mildenburg, Johanna Gadski, Olive Fremstad, and Lillian Nordica. Between the wars there were Germaine Lubin, Frida Leider, Florence Austral, Marjorie Lawrence, and Flagstad, all great dramatic sopranos. Helen Traubel came along in the '40s. There were other good exponents of those roles all the way along; those are just the most outstanding who come to mind. The pickin's got slim after WW II, which changed the world in so many ways. I know less about the heldentenor situation; maybe someone else can take that one.

POSTSCRIPT: We've been for so long used to the lack of great dramatic voices that it seems it's always been this way. It hasn't.


----------



## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

I went for Flagstad but I could easily be swayed to Nilsson as I feel those are the two standouts. That said, I would be grateful to hear someone on stage today sounding like any of those on that list. Even Modl, who so far has received no love :lol:


----------



## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> Unlike Flagstad and Nilsson, who still sounded great in their mid-fifties in the dramatic soprano repertoire, neither Modl nor Varnay had a very long vocal prime, and both soon moved down to mezzo territory, taking character parts in which beauty of sound was less important. Varnay and Nilsson were the same age, but Varnay was already on the decline when Nilsson was just becoming a superstar, and I commend her for becoming a mezzo and finding a way to keep giving powerful perormances even after Nilsson had retired.


To be fair, Varnay started singing Brünnhilde 10 years earlier than Nilsson did. People listened to her Brünnhilde for nearly 30 years, from 1941 to almost 1970 (counting from her first Walküre to her last Götterdämmerung). Unlike Mödl..


----------



## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

On a side note, this:



Woodduck said:


> Today I decided to listen to the entire opera Siegfried from the Furtwangler-led La Scala performances of 1950. This was Kirsten Flagstad's last Brunnhilde in the opera house, and she was 55 years old.


was not Flagstad's last Siegfried Brünnhilde, she sang at least one more complete Ring cycle at the Met in 1951 - her Walküre together with Varnay's Sieglinde. Unfortunately I can't find a recording of that Siegfried, maybe there is none.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

interestedin said:


> To be fair, Varnay started singing Brünnhilde 10 years earlier than Nilsson did. People listened to her Brünnhilde for nearly 30 years, from 1941 to almost 1970 (counting from her first Walküre to her last Götterdämmerung). Unlike Mödl..


Totally! If you hear Varnay's first Sieglinde at the Met when she was 22 it sounded like a different voice. It was an absolutely gorgeous, gorgeous, gorgeous voice with a fast, emotional vibrato. She was singing the really big Wagner roles in no time at all. No matter how mature the voice sounds or how great the voice is singing Wagner before one is vocally mature affects you. Nilsson started out with really big roles but at Stockholm, which is not exactly like trying to fill the Met. Ponselle started out with huge Verdi roles at the Met in her early 20's, but I think she survived because she was a freak. Who knows if the loss of the top was influenced by taking on such large roles so early. Even La Divina suffered an early vocal decline and it may have not just been the weight loss but the fact that she was singing so many Turandot's and Isoldes in her 20's. She never sang them again... nor did she have those ginormous notes above C after 30. She was ONLY 30 when she lost weight and the vocal decline began ( for whatever reason) shortly thereafter. Sure she had many more great years, but the voice was never as great as it was before her early 30's. Here is Varnay as Sieglinde at the Met at 22:



. Perhaps the best Sieglinde ever.


----------



## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Totally! If you hear Varnay's first Sieglinde at the Met when she was 22 it sounded like a different voice. It was an absolutely gorgeous, gorgeous, gorgeous voice with a fast, emotional vibrato. She was singing the really big Wagner roles in no time at all. No matter how mature the voice sounds or how great the voice is singing Wagner before one is vocally mature affects you. Nilsson started out with really big roles but at Stockholm, which is not exactly like trying to fill the Met. Ponselle started out with huge Verdi roles at the Met in her early 20's, but I think she survived because she was a freak. Who knows if the loss of the top was influenced by taking on such large roles so early. Even La Divina suffered an early vocal decline and it may have not just been the weight loss but the fact that she was singing so many Turandot's and Isoldes in her 20's. She never sang them again... nor did she have those ginormous notes above C after 30. She was ONLY 30 when she lost weight and the vocal decline began ( for whatever reason) shortly thereafter. Sure she had many more great years, but the voice was never as great as it was before her early 30's. *Here is Varnay as Sieglinde at the Met at 22:
> 
> 
> 
> . Perhaps the best Sieglinde ever*.


I was impressed with this Naxos release of the performance, very good sound as discussed at historical wagner thread, Varnay filled in for Lotte Lehman as Sieglinde and then six days later Astrid's first MET Brunnhilde filling in for Traubel.......












Couac Addict said:


> I went for Flagstad but I could easily be swayed to Nilsson as I feel those are the two standouts. That said,* I would be grateful to hear someone on stage today sounding like any of those on that list*. Even Modl, who so far has received no love :lol:


I think we can all agree on that point CA.........


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Totally! If you hear Varnay's first Sieglinde at the Met when she was 22 it sounded like a different voice. It was an absolutely gorgeous, gorgeous, gorgeous voice with a fast, emotional vibrato. She was singing the really big Wagner roles in no time at all. No matter how mature the voice sounds or how great the voice is singing Wagner before one is vocally mature affects you. Nilsson started out with really big roles but at Stockholm, which is not exactly like trying to fill the Met. Ponselle started out with huge Verdi roles at the Met in her early 20's, but I think she survived because she was a freak. Who knows if the loss of the top was influenced by taking on such large roles so early. Even La Divina suffered an early vocal decline and it may have not just been the weight loss but the fact that she was singing so many Turandot's and Isoldes in her 20's. She never sang them again... nor did she have those ginormous notes above C after 30. She was ONLY 30 when she lost weight and the vocal decline began ( for whatever reason) shortly thereafter. Sure she had many more great years, but the voice was never as great as it was before her early 30's. Here is Varnay as Sieglinde at the Met at 22:
> 
> 
> 
> . Perhaps the best Sieglinde ever.


This clip of Varnay at 22 is amazing. There are brief moments when she's vaguely recognizable, but for the most part it's a different - and much superior - singer, with a freedom and spin to the voice and not a trace of scooping and wobbling. Really, I don't know how a voice could gain so much fat in ten years. Not even Callas changed that much! Too bad she didn't follow the example of her old friend Flagstad and spend the next decade in lighter repertoire. Either she herself was exceedingly ambitious and rash, or we're looking at another example of the "fach" system at work ("You're a Wagnerian soprano, don't waste our time doing what everybody else can do, we need a Brunnhilde, here's more money").

Cursory research shows that Frida Leider sang the Walkure Brunnhilde at 28 and Isolde in provincial houses at 29, but continued to sing lighter roles like the countess in _The Marriage of Figaro_ along with Verdi and the lighter Wagner roles. Flagstad sang lyric soprano roles until her mid-thirties, then moved into parts such as Tosca and Aida before taking on Isolde at 37. Marjorie Lawrence first sang Brunnhilde at 28. Helen Traubel appears not to have sung Brunnhilde until after 40. Nilsson didn't sing outside of Sweden until she was 33, and appears to have waited till then to take on Brunnhilde and Isolde.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> This clip of Varnay at 22 is amazing. There are brief moments when she's vaguely recognizable, but for the most part it's a different - and much superior - singer, with a freedom and spin to the voice and not a trace of scooping and wobbling. Really, I don't know how a voice could gain so much fat in ten years. Not even Callas changed that much! Too bad she didn't follow the example of her old friend Flagstad and spend the next decade in lighter repertoire. Either she herself was exceedingly ambitious and rash, or we're looking at another example of the "fach" system at work ("You're a Wagnerian soprano, don't waste our time doing what everybody else can do, we need a Brunnhilde, here's more money").
> 
> Cursory research shows that Frida Leider sang the Walkure Brunnhilde at 28 and Isolde in provincial houses at 29, but continued to sing lighter roles like the countess in _The Marriage of Figaro_ along with Verdi and the lighter Wagner roles. Flagstad sang lyric soprano roles until her mid-thirties, then moved into parts such as Tosca and Aida before taking on Isolde at 37. Marjorie Lawrence first sang Brunnhilde at 28. Helen Traubel appears not to have sung Brunnhilde until after 40. Nilsson didn't sing outside of Sweden until she was 33, and appears to have waited till then to take on Brunnhilde and Isolde.


I like what you said very much. Indeed, it was an almost unrecognizable voice ( though I still loved it in the 50's). Thanks for listening. Early on Nilsson learned how to manufacture a penetrating sound without pushing the voice at all. It allowed her to sing big roles early in Sweden, thus allowing her to sing well until her 60's.


----------



## Bill H. (Dec 23, 2010)

I haven't voted in the poll, and probably won't, because there's so much I find yet to discover about these great singers, whether or not an individual one appeals to my taste or not. I find something to like in them all.

That said, something that's been brought up here that also interests me is the whole question of whether singing Wagner "ruins" voices. Especially so in the post WWII era, where orchestras, halls etc. seem to be bigger and louder, and perhaps even the tuning creeps up the tiniest bit to give more "brilliance". Some folks here might be allergic to the term "historically informed performance", but the case can be made that even in the late 19th/early 20th centuries orchestras were not as loud as they often are today, with more gut strings being used and less aggressive blowing in the brass. With recordings coming up to a century old, I suppose it's possible to make some conjecture, but recordings may not reproduce what actually went on in live performances, especially in the pre-electrical era. 

Perhaps at Bayreuth, with its unique acoustics there's a difference, but other venues? Could one make the case that a 22 year old Varnay, for instance starting her operatic career at the Met, was going to burn out her voice early based on what she was going to have to do with it by singing Wagner from the get-go? Perhaps there was more pressure to begin singing Wagner before voices had completely matured, but then again there are singers today who have had decently long, serviceable careers in the repertoire (Waltraud Meier comes to mind). 

I would enjoy reading others' thoughts on this!


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I like what you said very much. Indeed, it was an almost unrecognizable voice ( though I still loved it in the 50's). Thanks for listening. Early on Nilsson learned how to manufacture a penetrating sound without pushing the voice at all. It allowed her to sing big roles early in Sweden, thus allowing her to sing well until her 60's.


It seem that "pushing the voice" is a critical factor. All the great pedagogues said that the sensation of singing should be of the voice floating on the breath. When it feels like that, all the muscles are working in perfect coordination and there is no strain. Nilsson said after a performance of Wagner that she felt as if she could do the whole thing again from the beginning and that the part of her that got tired was her feet! I heard her Isolde in New York when she was 54, and she sounded fresher at the end than at the beginning.

Proper technique makes a voice age differently than one that's been forced. What we tend to hear from singers who push themselves into repertoire too heavy for them is a slowing of the vibrato and the emergence of the dreaded wobble, sometimes rather early in the singer's career. This afflicted Varnay and Modl, but not Flagstad, Traubel, or Nilsson. A slight slowing of the vibrato is inevitable as muscles lose tone and flexibility with age, but none of these singers ever exhibited the slow, throbbing waver which afflicts so many aging singers. I can't say that Nilsson's voice sounded beautiful in her 60s (as heard in her Elektra at the Met in 1980), as it became even less flexible and its cutting edge more pronounced, but there's no wobble. Flagstad lost her high B and C, but her middle and lower ranges only became richer and warmer with age, the tone steady and pure as ever. She made many recordings in her early 60s, including the _Rheingold_ Fricka (the _Walkure_ Fricka was planned as well) and they reveal a deep, gorgeous mezzo-soprano who, had cancer not claimed her, could have moved comfortably into other mezzo and possibly even contralto roles.

As I listen to recordings of famous singers in the early years of the 20th century, singers like Patti and Melba and Battistini and Plancon who were middle-aged or older by the time they made records, I may hear signs of age in their voices, but rarely an intrusive vibrato, much less a wobble, even at the tops of their ranges. But when I tune in to the Met on Saturdays, I hear even in many a fine young singer, if not yet a wobble, a strenuousness and heavy vibrato which tells me that Manuel Garcia's and Blanche Marchesi's pedagogical wisdom - the ideal of a natural, easy, floated, flexible, pure tone, regardless of gender, vocal range, or "fach" - is no longer a requirement for the operatic big time.

Too many "dramatic" singers - would be Brunnhildes and Siegfrieds - wade into deep water before they've learned to swim, and when they come up against the big waves of Wagner's orchestra they only know to try to bore through them rather than float on top. I would wonder whether anyone in our present crop of Wagnerians will be sounding as good by their fifties as Traubel and Flagstad did - never mind whether any of them sounded that good in the first place!


----------



## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

DarkAngel said:


> I was impressed with this Naxos release of the performance, very good sound as discussed at historical wagner thread, Varnay filled in for Lotte Lehman as Sieglinde and then six days later Astrid's first MET Brunnhilde filling in for Traubel.......


A favorite recording of mine. Listen especially to Traubel and Varnay in their Act III scene together, where they strive to outduel each other in thrilling wonderfulness.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

amfortas said:


> A favorite recording of mine. Listen especially to Traubel and Varnay in their Act III scene together, where they strive to outduel each other in thrilling wonderfulness.


That looks like one to own. Credit card at the ready!


----------



## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> That looks like one to own. Credit card at the ready!


Full disclosure: The sound quality requires a good deal of indulgence, and the glaring weakness of the set (a significant one in _Die Walküre_) is Friedrich Schorr's Wotan. In this, his final Met broadcast, the gradual vocal deterioration is very sadly in evidence.

That said, along with Melchior in thrilling voice, it was an afternoon of major debuts: Traubel's first attempt at one of the big heroic Wagnerian roles; the 23-year-old Varnay's first stage appearance ever (stepping in for an indisposed Lehmann); and the great bass Alexander Kipnis's first Met assumption of Hunding. All that in an electrifying performance the day before Pearl Harbor--truly an historic event.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Traubel can be a little bland, but lordy that voice was gorgeous...... and huge!!!!!!!!!!!!! Completely seamless from the bottom to the top.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Traubel can be a little bland, but lordy that voice was gorgeous...... and huge!!!!!!!!!!!!! Completely seamless from the bottom to the top.


If only her top had been a little higher! But I carp...


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> If only her top had been a little higher! But I carp...


Did you know she started out not as a mezzo but as a contralto!!!!!! No wonder the C was reluctant!


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Did you know she started out not as a mezzo but as a contralto!!!!!! No wonder the C was reluctant!


It's interesting how many dramatic sopranos and tenors begin as mezzos, contraltos or baritones. It just takes time for big voices to find their high notes, and usually they don't go much past C, if that far. Nilsson was a freak, singing the Queen of the Night in the shower.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> It's interesting how many dramatic sopranos and tenors begin as mezzos, contraltos or baritones. It just takes time for big voices to find their high notes, and usually they don't go much past C, if that far. Nilsson was a freak, singing the Queen of the Night in the shower.


Jane Eaglen, who could sing the D in Norma, could not sing above an A# till her mid 20's. Her teacher said you are a dramatic soprano. The high notes will come and they suddenly appeared during a Tosca, I believe. Jones stared out as a mezzo as did the great soprano Harshaw.


----------



## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Nice discussion here with great info.....considering only 16 votes cast with so many members at this forum

Our loyal Wagnerite members are not afraid to speak their minds, well done all 

Amfortas has been lured back over here from the "other" forum, there is even hope that Duck may become a Varnay fan if he listens to more of her 1940s Wagner performances, ha ha


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DarkAngel said:


> Nice discussion here with great info.....considering only 16 votes cast with so many members at this forum
> 
> Our loyal Wagnerite members are not afraid to speak their minds, well done all
> 
> Amfortas has been lured back over here from the "other" forum, there is even hope that Duck may become a Varnay fan if he listens to more of her 1940s Wagner performances, ha ha


I'm a fan already, and all it took was a few minutes of superb singing. But now her later work will irritate me more than ever.


----------



## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Speaking of Amfortas being lured back, where is Marschallin Blair?


----------



## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Barbebleu said:


> Speaking of Amfortas being lured back, where is Marschallin Blair?


Wild child is still in the moderators penalty box unable to post here, will be back.......


----------



## Bill H. (Dec 23, 2010)

In case you hadn't heard this yet, some of Flagstad's thoughts on Wagnerian (and other) roles, and the training to get there:


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bill H. said:


> In case you hadn't heard this yet, some of Flagstad's thoughts on Wagnerian (and other) roles, and the training to get there:


Wise words, and a wonderful glimpse of a great lady. Speaking or singing, hers was the voice of a goddess. What a treat to hear her sing without accompaniment, as if right in the room with you. I'm so moved by this, and sad that she died when those deep, rich tones could have given us still more music. I doubt we'll ever hear such a voice again.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Wise words, and a wonderful glimpse of a great lady. Speaking or singing, hers was the voice of a goddess. What a treat to hear her sing without accompaniment, as if right in the room with you. I'm so moved by this, and sad that she died when those deep, rich tones could have given us still more music. I doubt we'll ever hear such a voice again.


I canNOT tell you how many times I have played that. I agree. Without accompaniment her voice is unreal in it's resonant beauty.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I canNOT tell you how many times I have played that. I agree. Without accompaniment her voice is unreal in it's resonant beauty.


You can understand why Sutherland and others have said that Flagstad's was the greatest voice they ever heard.


----------



## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

DarkAngel said:


> Wild child is still in the moderators penalty box unable to post here, will be back.......


Who did the Marschallin kill to be so severely penalised. Or was some sensitive soul upset by a few words as opposed to sticks and stones?


----------



## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

With Schorr in 1936:

http://pastdaily.com/2015/09/27/kir...n-recital-1936-past-daily-weekend-gramophone/

Another minute of her speaking voice and video:


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> It's interesting how many dramatic sopranos and tenors begin as mezzos, contraltos or baritones. It just takes time for big voices to find their high notes, and usually they don't go much past C, if that far. Nilsson was a freak, singing the Queen of the Night in the shower.


imo, a lot of "dramatic sopranos" _are_ still mezzos who think screeching out a high B means they can sing Brunnhilde.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> imo, a lot of "dramatic sopranos" _are_ still mezzos who think screeching out a high B means they can sing Brunnhilde.


Maybe so. Who did you have in mind?


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Maybe so. Who did you have in mind?


1) Astrid Varnay (to her credit, she realized it mid-career)
2) Jessye Norman
3) Rosa Ponselle (she was the furthest thing from "screechy", but generally came across as more of a mezzo to me)
4) about 50% of less known dramatic sopranos I've listened to on youtube

as you remarked in a previous comment, Flagstad could have easily continued as a mezzo had cancer not taken her, though I'm not counting her in this list because she was undeniably a soprano until maybe her last 5 years of singing (that would be, in your words, "hairsplitting")


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> 1) Astrid Varnay (to her credit, she realized it mid-career)
> 2) Jessye Norman
> 3) Rosa Ponselle (she was the furthest thing from "screechy", but generally came across as more of a mezzo to me)
> 4) about 50% of less known dramatic sopranos I've listened to on youtube
> ...


Plausible candidates. I'd only remark that some voices do deepen with age. Did you hear that remarkable recording of Varnay singing Sieglinde at 22? A superb soprano, not a mezzo. I think she became a mezzo from too much Wagner too soon.

I might agree about Norman, although she too was more comfortable on high and less deep-toned in the years before she was famous.

Ponselle, I disagree. She was a fantastic soprano, even though not a high one. But then she was almost everything in her prime: the ultimate dramatic Verdi soprano with coloratura equal to Violetta and Norma.

Some you didn't mention were Modl - similar progression to Varnay - and Traubel, who wasn't comfortable above Bb.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Plausible candidates. I'd only remark that some voices do deepen with age. Did you hear that remarkable recording of Varnay singing Sieglinde at 22? A superb soprano, not a mezzo. I think she became a mezzo from too much Wagner too soon.


not sure if that was the specific recording, but I remember a recording from around that age which sounded very spinto soprano-y. I've actually been looking for it for some time XD



> I might agree about Norman, although she too was more comfortable on high and less deep-toned in the years before she was famous.


I have heard this as well (I think SeatleOperaFan mentioned it earlier)



> Ponselle, I disagree. She was a fantastic soprano, even though not a high one. But then she was almost everything in her prime: the ultimate dramatic Verdi soprano with coloratura equal to Violetta and Norma.


could be. she sounds very different depending on what one is listening to



> Some you didn't mention were Modl
> - similar progression to Varnay


she came to mind, but I haven't heard a great deal of her, so I would have felt presumptuous making that claim



> - and Traubel, who wasn't comfortable above Bb.


she still, overall, sounded more soprano to me

when I think of Wagnerian _sopranos_, Flagstad, Lieder and Nilsson come to mind as the most clearly soprano (not coincidentally, also the ones who had the most success singing Italian rep).

Edit: Regine Crespin is probably worth mentioning as well. this is definitely not the voice of a mezzo


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> not sure if that was the specific recording, but I remember a recording from around that age which sounded very spinto soprano-y. I've actually been looking for it for some time XD


Here's Varnay at 22:






You can hear her in some Verdi at an intermediate phase, at age 30:






And then the Varnay we're familiar with, at 34:






An amazing transformation in 12 years, isn't it?


----------



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Here's Varnay at 22:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


you win. that's still an astoundingly dark, full middle register for a 22 year old (like....WOW lol), but the overtones in the upper register give the soprano-ness away. for me, the biggest indicator of soprano vs mezzo is that sopranos experience a noticeable release into the head register where the shift in mezzos is a little more subtle and doesn't have quite as much ring to it. 
PS: it's times like these where I think Dolora Zajick is right that you can usually spot a dramatic voice by about 20 and that they need special care and attention from the rare teacher who understands how to work with them and guide them through appropriate repertoire.


----------

