# Berlioz Requiem



## toughcritic (Jan 22, 2007)

Tremendous work that I personally have never heard in concert, it is almost never presented. I think it is a relatively unknown piece even among professionals. I wonder why? It's depth and orchestral harmonies so beautifully festooned in the choral material that the effect is beguiling. Please listen and if any of you can recommend other recordings than the one below, I would love to compare.


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## JTech82 (Feb 6, 2009)

One reason why you probably haven't heard it live is because it requires a huge orchestra to play it. Berlioz, as you may or may not know, was a master of orchestration.

His "Requiem" is a beautiful piece, but as I mentioned the orchestration is huge. I got the following information from Wikipedia:

The Requiem is scored for a very large orchestra, four brass bands, and chorus placed throughout the hall:

Woodwinds
4 Flutes
2 Oboes
2 English horns
4 Clarinets in B-flat
8 Bassoons

Brass
12 Horns in C, E-flat
4 Cornets in B-flat
4 Tubas

Percussion
16 Timpani (10 players)
2 Bass Drums
10 pairs of Cymbals
4 Tam-tams
4 Brass Choirs

Choir 1 to the North
4 Cornets
4 Trombones
2 Tubas

Choir 2 to the East
4 Trumpets
4 Trombones

Choir 3 to the West
4 Trumpets
4 Trombones

Choir 4 to the South
4 Trumpets
4 Trombones
4 Ophicleides (usually substituted by Tubas)

Voices
Chorus:
80 Sopranos
60 Tenors
70 Basses
Tenor solo

Strings
25 Violin I
25 Violin II
20 Violas
20 Violoncellos
18 Double Basses


I would check out Colin Davis' take on this on the Philips label with the London Symphony and also check out Charles Munch's take with the Boston Symphony Orch. Both are amazing interpretations and should be heard by everyone who's interested in Berlioz.


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## handlebar (Mar 19, 2009)

Also the Robert Shaw recording.

Jim


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2009)

One CD that you should try to listen to is the 'World premiere recording' made by John Eliot Gardiner with the Monteverdi Choir, Orchestre revolutionnaire et romantique. on "Period instruments"
On 3rd Oct 1993 on Philips 442-137-2
Very atmospheric, recorded in Westminster Cathedral, London.* It is a must*


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

Berlioz's requiem is overblown kitsch.


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## YsayeOp.27#6 (Dec 7, 2007)

Bach said:


> Berlioz's requiem is overblown kitsch.


Why?..........


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## Artemis (Dec 8, 2007)

toughcritic said:


> Tremendous work that I personally have never heard in concert, it is almost never presented. I think it is a relatively unknown piece even among professionals. I wonder why? It's depth and orchestral harmonies so beautifully festooned in the


I can't comment on the popularity of this work in concert but it would not be correct to suggest that it is relatively unknown even among professionals. This work - to give it the correct title "Grande Messe des morts" - is among the most highly regarded of Berlioz works, and certainly in his top 10. The version I have is by the Boston Symphony Orchestra/Charles Munch. There are many other versions. The fact that I have a copy doesn't necessarily mean that I like it greatly. I bought some time ago mainly for completeness, and have probably played it twice all the way through. I like music of this sort but I cannot say that this is my favourite Requiem. Nevertheless, orchestrally it is awesome in scale and magnificent in effects, and definitely worth adding to one's collection.


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## handlebar (Mar 19, 2009)

Bach said:


> Berlioz's requiem is overblown kitsch.


Yes, I want to know why as well. Give us your thoughts.

Jim


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## JTech82 (Feb 6, 2009)

handlebar said:


> Yes, I want to know why as well. Give us your thoughts.
> 
> Jim


Knowing Bach, I doubt he will give his reasons for not liking it. You'd be lucky to receive any explanation.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Yeah, Bach, God love him, likes to give bitchy one-liners in several threads about composers he doesn't like. "He is rubbish" and things of that ilk.

That's OK, though. We would not want our Bach any other way!


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## David C Coleman (Nov 23, 2007)

Bach said:


> Berlioz's requiem is overblown kitsch.


Yes it is overblown, but its wonderful to hear what noise 600+ performers can make. I've seen this piece live once. (Colin Davies actually). Only time I saw more performers than audience(so it seemed). And that was in the Royal Albert Hall..


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## Gorm Less (Dec 11, 2008)

Tapkaara said:


> Yeah, Bach, God love him, likes to give bitchy one-liners in several threads about composers he doesn't like. "He is rubbish" and things of that ilk.
> 
> That's OK, though. We would not want our Bach any other way!


I agree that people with skills like Bach's are a rarity and it would be unfair to tax his knowledge by asking for clarification of his musical dictums. Rather we should be grateful indeed that he graces us with his company now and then as we struggle to comprehend and fathom the major works bequeathed to us by composers past. If he says that Berlioz's Requiem is cr.p that's good enough for me, and it should be good enough for anyone else. Let us hope and pray that he hasn't been offended by any unfortunate remarks he may have seen above, and that it won't be long before he calls again to enlighten us mere mortals with further pearls of wisdom.


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## JoeGreen (Nov 17, 2008)

Well Bach's kitsch is my ecstasy, if there is anything I love more than Brass instruments, it's brass instruments and stereophonic effects! (or in this case quadraphonic)

But I would seriously love to here this live. Even if it's just for the Tuba Mirum portion.


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## JTech82 (Feb 6, 2009)

David C Coleman said:


> Yes it is overblown, but its wonderful to hear what noise 600+ performers can make. I've seen this piece live once. (Colin Davies actually). Only time I saw more performers than audience(so it seemed). And that was in the Royal Albert Hall..


Wow, I bet that was incredible. Sir Colin Davis' Berlioz is some of the finest I've heard. In my honest opinion, nobody comes close to his interpretations. I do feel, however, that Berlioz is open for interpretation like all composers, but I just connected instantly with Davis' readings. That doesn't happen very much, but in the hands of a good conductor like Davis he makes it sound so easy and effortless.

I do enjoy Charles Munch's readings too, but they don't impact me quite the same way. They're good though no doubt about it. I have that 10-disc box set on RCA called "Munch Conducts Berlioz" and it's not bad at all.


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2009)

Bach said:


> Berlioz's requiem is overblown kitsch.


I know what you mean, it is a very theatrical piece of music not at all like the normal requiem but although different it is still good music.


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

Verdi's requiem is theatrical (far more so than Berlioz's, I would argue) but because it is so well written, it manages to escape without criticism. Berlioz's requiem is untidy and harmonically lazy - sounds like it was written by a child desperate for attention.


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## the_unexpected (Mar 13, 2009)

JoeGreen said:


> Well Bach's kitsch is my ecstasy, if there is anything I love more than Brass instruments, it's brass instruments and stereophonic effects! (or in this case quadraphonic)
> 
> But I would seriously love to here this live. Even if it's just for the Tuba Mirum portion.


I'm not sure where you're located, but the Philadelphia Orchestra (Dutoit conducting) will be playing it in...May...June...somewhere around there if memory serves. I'm trying to work out an attendance myself, I'm sure it will be an event to remember.


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## Mr Dull (Mar 14, 2009)

I was at a performance of this many years ago but I have to admit that despite all those timps and being right next to the orchestra I fell asleep. I usually find Berlioz music dull and over theatrical but it doesn't usually send me to sleep.


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## EarlyCuyler (Mar 28, 2009)

I would go with the Sir Colin Davis/LSO recording, but another that is great, if you can find it, is one that Charles Munch did with the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra and Chorus. Stay away from the impotent Ozawa/Boston Recording. Engineers got waaaaaayyyyyy too involved with that one. You can almost hear the pot being brought down on the brass during the big climaxes. Absolutely shameful.


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2009)

Bach said:


> Berlioz's requiem is untidy and harmonically lazy -.


Examples please!


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## toughcritic (Jan 22, 2007)

the_unexpected said:


> I'm not sure where you're located, but the Philadelphia Orchestra (Dutoit conducting) will be playing it in...May...June...somewhere around there if memory serves. I'm trying to work out an attendance myself, I'm sure it will be an event to remember.


I did not know, even though I wasn't planning on being in that area, I might just change my schedule.


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## JTech82 (Feb 6, 2009)

toughcritic said:


> I did not know, even though I wasn't planning on being in that area, I might just change my schedule.


How about showing a little gratitude to the people here, including myself, who have helped you with your questions?


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## toughcritic (Jan 22, 2007)

JTech82 said:


> How about showing a little gratitude to the people here, including myself, who have helped you with your questions?


That was going to be my next post. I just wanted to read all the replies more thoroughly. Unexpected's post simply jumped at me and didn't require further reading.


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## JTech82 (Feb 6, 2009)

toughcritic said:


> That was going to be my next post. I just wanted to read all the replies more thoroughly. Unexpected's post simply jumped at me and didn't require further reading.


If you say so.


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## JoeGreen (Nov 17, 2008)

the_unexpected said:


> I'm not sure where you're located, but the Philadelphia Orchestra (Dutoit conducting) will be playing it in...May...June...somewhere around there if memory serves. I'm trying to work out an attendance myself, I'm sure it will be an event to remember.


Heh, I'm nowhere close to there but if I were I'd definitley try to go.


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