# Morton Feldman



## GioCar

In a recent thread regarding Philip Glass, PetrB mentioned Morton Feldman.
This raised my curiosity. Anyone here "expert" of him? I am not acquainted at all with Mr Feldman (besides the fact that he wrote VERY long works in a sort of minimalistic style) but, from what I've read on the internet, I think he deserves a new thread...
Any suggestion on his compositions, where to start from, recordings, books, etc... are very much appreciated.

:tiphat:

Thanks!


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## science

Wow, I can hardly believe there hasn't been a Feldman thread here already. He must be just about the most famous American composer active in the 1970s and 1980s.

I only know a few of his works:

View attachment 40740
View attachment 40741


View attachment 40742
View attachment 40743


Of those "Three Voices" pleases and intrigues me the most. I'm not sure what's meant to be going on in "Piano and String Quartet," although it is definitely music that won't upset anyone. "Rothko Chapel" seems to be among his most popular works, but that's my impression and likely to be wrong!


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## Morimur

GioCar said:


> In a recent thread regarding Philip Glass, PetrB mentioned Morton Feldman.
> This raised my curiosity. Anyone here "expert" of him? I am not acquainted at all with Mr Feldman (besides the fact that he wrote VERY long works in a sort of minimalistic style) but, from what I've read on the internet, I think he deserves a new thread...
> Any suggestion on his compositions, where to start from, recordings, books, etc... are very much appreciated.
> 
> :tiphat:
> 
> Thanks!


A great composer. I have quite a few of his works. Anyhow, I find him rather accessible so I'd simply recommend that you procure reputable recordings of his works, regardless of 'period'. One can pretty much begin anywhere with Feldman.

Morton Feldman: Violin & Orchestra 
~ Carolin Widmann


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## PetrB

Here is a link to a playlist with but a few of his earlier (serial _be not afraid)_ works, "The viola in my life," a theme he returned to several times.





The earlier, and for Feldman, unusually 'faster' and with more general activity
Atlantis





Other pieces (these are all of much briefer duration than his long later works) are his

_Vertical thoughts_ one of several pieces with the same name, each for different instrumental forces...





I Met Heine On The Rue Fürstenberg, for flute, clarinet, percussion, piano, mezzo-soprano, violin, cello
(two different performances here)








Routine investigations





They give but a glimpse at many of his earlier works, which all share the same concerns found in the later works. An articulate spareness, a profound interest and fine ear for timbre, less usual combinations of instruments chosen with a very fine ear for instrumental color, and rarely a dynamic marking much above a Mezzo-forte.

These earlier works are as terse as Webern, while his sense of musical time, mostly slow and spacious, is already manifest. Whether the earlier serial works or the later "tonal" pieces, there is to all of them a feeling (imo) of a rite, or ritual in which the listener is a participant.

Too, the composer's music requires of its performers an intense concentration and a sort of hyper yet quiet virtuosity.

The turning point in style and his later preoccupation with length by way of repetition is 
Madame Press died last week at ninety





This link to another playlist with a number of the pieces already mentioned in this thread, _Piano and string quartet_, _Why Patterns_, the first being Feldman's only piece for solo organ, _Principal Sound_





One of several larger orchestral works from the latter part of his career
Coptic Light





and as spotty and incomplete as this is, I will stop for now, thinking to a composer whom I find more than remarkable, and much of whose music I think is freakin' awesome 

Best regards.


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## mmsbls

I have a specific question. I listened to the Piano and String Quartet. I enjoyed what I heard, but I found it too repetitive to finish it. From others' comments I think there's actually some very interesting things going on that make the work sound repetitive only to those who don't hear the detail. I obviously did not hear the detail. I looked a bit for explanations of the work that might help me but I didn't find something useful. Does anyone know of a nice discussion that describes what's happening at various places in the work?


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## brotagonist

Here is a fascinating article that happens to talk about the piece you mention, but serves, by way of example, to give an insight into what Feldman was trying to do and how he did it. Like you, I initially heard only the repetition, but the article clarified much. While I am now a convert, I find it best to approach his music like one might approach meditation: be in the experience of now and don't try to analyze what's happening.


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## millionrainbows

mmsbls said:


> I have a specific question. I listened to the Piano and String Quartet. I enjoyed what I heard, but I found it too repetitive to finish it. From others' comments I think there's actually some very interesting things going on that make the work sound repetitive only to those who don't hear the detail. I obviously did not hear the detail. I looked a bit for explanations of the work that might help me but I didn't find something useful. Does anyone know of a nice discussion that describes what's happening at various places in the work?


I'm listening to it on YouTube. This sounds like one of his 'absurd' works. I prefer the MODE CDs of "Indeterminate Music" and "Music by Numbers:" The "absurd" works are based on Existentialism, a kind of 'Waiting for Godot' zen without any humor. Like Schopenhaur was.
The repetition brings about a sense of meaninglessness, of waiting for development. He liked Mark Rothko paintings as well.

Try "Music for Stephan Wolpe" and Rothko Chapel. Those are nice.




1.










T
Zoom


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## PetrB

millionrainbows said:


> The repetition brings about a sense of meaninglessness, of waiting for development.


This is exactly like the cliche criticisms of atonal music, the biggest hurdle or barrier to the listener being the fact the piece is not tonal -- which is then considered an instant negative, based upon listener preconceptions of what music is or should be vs. what a piece actually is.


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## Itullian

I loved him in Young Frankenstein.


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## GioCar

Maybe twins separated at birth?


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## millionrainbows

PetrB said:


> This is exactly like the cliche criticisms of atonal music, the biggest hurdle or barrier to the listener being the fact the piece is not tonal -- which is then considered an instant negative, based upon listener preconceptions of what music is or should be vs. what a piece actually is.


Ever read any Beckett? Felman's string Quartet No. 2, over 6 hours long (on DVD) is also absurd, for its sheer length, lack of development, and sheer repetition. It's an artistic gesture.


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## millionrainbows

GioCar said:


> _*IMAGES DELETED FROM REPLY
> *_
> Maybe twins separated at birth?


Oh, you shouldn't do that. That is really not cool, man. Do you realize the implications of what you have just posted? Apparently not, or this is some sort of weird agenda or baiting trap. Uncool, man.


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## GioCar

millionrainbows said:


> Oh, you shouldn't do that. That is really not cool, man. Do you realize the implications of what you have just posted? Apparently not, or this is some sort of weird agenda or baiting trap. Uncool, man.


. Are you joking or being serious?


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## Morimur

I don't think Beckett cared much for music, did he?


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## millionrainbows

GioCar said:


> . Are you joking or being serious?


As anyone here knows, I am not ever sarcastic, since it does not translate well on-line. When I say something, I say what I mean. It may resonate in multiple ways, but in all dimensions it is sincere. Any other questions or 'humorous' posts?


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## Manxfeeder

millionrainbows said:


> Ever read any Beckett? Felman's string Quartet No. 2, over 6 hours long (on DVD) is also absurd, for its sheer length, lack of development, and sheer repetition. It's an artistic gesture.


6 hours. Wow. That makes For Philip Guston a mere bagatelle at 4.5 hours.


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## GioCar

millionrainbows said:


> As anyone here knows, I am not ever sarcastic, since it does not translate well on-line. When I say something, I say what I mean. It may resonate in multiple ways, but in all dimensions it is sincere. Any other questions or 'humorous' posts?


All right, thank you. No other "humorous" posts here.

But I still have a question.
Please, may I know then why, in your opinion, I shouldn't have posted the two Feldman pics (Morton & Marty)?

 (one for each pic)


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## millionrainbows

GioCar said:


> All right, thank you. No other "humorous" posts here.
> 
> But I still have a question.
> Please, may I know then why, in your opinion, I shouldn't have posted the two Feldman pics (Morton & Marty)?
> 
> (one for each pic)


No, I think that this is something you should think about. Of course, you are free to post any sort of image-comparisons you wish, as long as they remain within the bounds of propriety, and their possible meaning is vague and open-ended enough.


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## GioCar

millionrainbows said:


> No, I think that this is something you should think about. Of course, you are free to post any sort of image-comparisons you wish, as long as they remain within the bounds of propriety, and their possible meaning is vague and open-ended enough.


Ok let's go back for a moment:
In post #9 there is a clear reference to *Marty* Feldman.
The following post (#10) is mine, and I posted there two pictures, one of *Morton* Feldman, one of *Marty* Feldman.
Both were (and still are) well-known and important in their fields (well, maybe Marty more famous than Morton...).
Both are not, how I can say, "Adonis"... (there is a recent thread on the "ugliness" of some composers, isn't it?).

So, what's the problem?

Anyway, if I have unintentionally offended your (or someone's else) sensibilities, I beg pardon.


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## millionrainbows

GioCar said:


> Ok let's go back for a moment:
> In post #9 there is a clear reference to *Marty* Feldman.
> The following post (#10) is mine, and I posted there two pictures, one of *Morton* Feldman, one of *Marty* Feldman.
> Both were (and still are) well-known and important in their fields (well, maybe Marty more famous than Morton...).
> Both are not, how I can say, "Adonis"... (there is a recent thread on the "ugliness" of some composers, isn't it?).
> 
> So, what's the problem?
> 
> Anyway, if I have unintentionally offended your (or someone's else) sensibilities, I beg pardon.


Morton Feldman was based in New York...New York...*New York...New York, the place where the Statue of Liberty is located.
*


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## GioCar

Good.

Moving forward...

Does anyone know this book?










This is the Italian translation for "Vertical Thoughts". 
I've read very good reviews on it, but I am not sure it is the translation of the English book I found by googling "Vertical Thoughts"... On Amazon.com it costs more that 1,000$ (!) while on Amazon.it is 25.50 Euro...
Does anyone know the (maybe) "original" one?


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## Blancrocher

GioCar said:


> This is the Italian translation for "Vertical Thoughts".
> I've read very good reviews on it, but I am not sure it is the translation of the English book I found by googling "Vertical Thoughts"... On Amazon.com it costs more that 1,000$ (!) while on Amazon.it is 25.50 Euro...
> Does anyone know the (maybe) "original" one?


Actually, it looks like that's the Italian translation of "Give my Regards to Eighth Street." The English book called "Verticle Thoughts" is an essay collection about Feldman written by critics.

It's all rather confusing!

http://www.cnvill.net/mfbiblio.htm


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## GioCar

Thank you Blancrocher :tiphat:

Thanks for the extensive bibliograghy as well.

It's a pity I don't read German, from that list the most interesting one seems to be #12.


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## millionrainbows

Be sure you realize that Feldman was highly influenced by John Cage.

And also, let's realize that Feldman (with Cage) was really more a part of the New York *art* world, rather than whatever "academy" in music existed. This later became true for Philip Glass as well. By this, we can see a split from Europe, and a particular kind of American composing emerging.

Whatever 'academy' in music existed, was spread-out in the major universities, by isolated figures like Roger Sessions, Milton Babbitt, and Charles Wuorinen. The real "art" was taking place in New York. Feldman should be seen in this light.


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## Whistler Fred

Since it was brought up, I'd highly recommend "Give My Regards to Eighth Street." Feldman was, among other things, a good writer and lecturer, and he not afraid of the occasional musical polemic. It's a fascinating and insightful read.


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## GioCar

In the last weeks I have been listening several times to these works:
- Triadic Memories (for solo piano)
- Violin and Orchestra
- Piano and String Quartet
- Coptic Light (for orchestra)
and I find them all very intriguing. They actually require (and attract) much more attention than most of the other "minimalistic" music, but they are not "wearying". They are very personal and difficult to compare to other's works.

I'd like to face soon the 6-hours long String Quartet No.2. 
Just wondering if someone here has ever tried to give it a complete listen and, in case, how (in just one shot, with pauses, etc).


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## millionrainbows

Whistler Fred said:


> Since it was brought up, I'd highly recommend "Give My Regards to Eighth Street." Feldman was, among other things, a good writer and lecturer, and he not afraid of the occasional musical polemic. It's a fascinating and insightful read.


Yes, good book. Feldman first came to notice when John Cage recommended him to do some soundtrack music for a film about Jackson Pollack. Again, the New York art scene figures in it all.


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## millionrainbows

GioCar said:


> In the last weeks I have been listening several times to these works:
> - Triadic Memories (for solo piano)
> - Violin and Orchestra
> - Piano and String Quartet
> - Coptic Light (for orchestra)
> and I find them all very intriguing. They actually require (and attract) much more attention than most of the other "minimalistic" music, but they are not "wearying". They are very personal and difficult to compare to other's works.
> 
> I'd like to face soon the 6-hours long String Quartet No.2.
> Just wondering if someone here has ever tried to give it a complete listen and, in case, how (in just one shot, with pauses, etc).


Yeah, I listened to the 5-CD set, and later got the 5-hour DVD, which is hi-rez and uninterrupted. It turned out to be sort of like meditating. I felt very 'complete' after the experience, as if my mind had been cleared of clutter.


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## Blake

Amazing stuff. His ability to let the sounds breath while subtly moving in intelligent directions is impressive.


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## GioCar

Vesuvius said:


> Amazing stuff. His ability to let the sounds breath while subtly moving in intelligent directions is impressive.
> 
> View attachment 47460


So right imo.
I've got an obsession for Feldman's music in the last months and I believe this is due to its *SOUNDS*.
This is really the key word to comprehend his music.


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## Blake

GioCar said:


> So right imo.
> I've got an obsession for Feldman's music in the last months and I believe this is due to its *SOUNDS*.
> This is really the key word to comprehend his music.


Stockhausen once asked him what his secret was, and Feldman replied - "I don't push the sounds around."


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## ArtMusic

Vesuvius said:


> Stockhausen once asked him what his secret was, and Feldman replied - "I don't push the sounds around."


That's a very literall answer thinking about minimallism, indded the soundes do not get pushed around under minimalism. Good answer from Feldman! I like it!


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## PetrB

Vesuvius said:


> Stockhausen once asked him what his secret was, and Feldman replied - "I don't push the sounds around."


Lol. The following day, when they met again, Stockhausen asked, evidently with a bit of pleading tone or hope in his voice, _"Not even just a little bit?"_


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## dgee

Is Feldman a minimalist? Not in the sense that Glass, Reich et al are, and he does not share musical approaches with them - in fact he held them in low esteem ("pop musicians like Glass" I saw him say somewhere).

But anyway, he was a raconteur, provocateur and party animal, bless him - my favourite mental image is him losing his rag at a group playing one of his later chamber works, shouting "It's too f'n loud and too f'n fast!"


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## Blake

PetrB said:


> Lol. The following day, when they met again, Stockhausen asked, evidently with a bit of pleading tone or hope in his voice, _"Not even just a little bit?"_


I really think he was a modern shaman. His music is undeniably intellectual, yet undeniably meditative.


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## Mandryka

SeptimalTritone said:


> Morton Feldman's Violin and String Quartet.
> 
> Seriously, the difference between this piece and anything else is like comparing the Fractional Quantum Hall energy scale to the Grand Unified Theory energy scale.
> 
> This piece is the greatest string quintet of all time.


I've just started to listen to this for the first time, since you posted on youtube.

It seems superficially similar to the second string quartet. Do you think that there are important different ideas going on in this quintet? Why do you think he wrote the two of them?


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## Richannes Wrahms

I like his conception of time (as opposed to Messiaens' notions of time), it's somewhat static but it still flows at its own natural pace.

Feldman was an avid Sibelius enthusiast, going so far as blaming Adorno for the continental ignorance of Sibelius's music in his Darmstadt lectures of 1984 from where the famous quote "The people who you think are radicals might really be conservatives, the people who you think are conservative might really be radical." comes from. Not surprisingly, he particularly liked the opening of the 4th Symphny, for its ambiguous oscillation.



PetrB said:


> One of several larger orchestral works from the latter part of his career
> Coptic Light


On his program notes to Coptic Light he noted Sibelius's comment that the primary difference between writing for orchestra and piano is that the orchestra has no pedal.


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## SeptimalTritone

Mandryka said:


> I've just started to listen to this for the first time, since you posted on youtube.
> 
> It seems superficially similar to the second string quartet. Do you think that there are important different ideas going on in this quintet? Why do you think he wrote the two of them?


Absolutely. Each Feldman work takes a life of its own. There are different motifs, different chord structures, and different paths of development over the few hours.

The youtube video description taken from the CD's program notes is quite helpful:

"Morton Feldman's large scale work simply entitled Violin and String Quartet commences with the violin soloist contemplating the minor seventh interval A to G over and over again, in no predictable rhythmic configuration, while confronted by soft, dissonant chord clouds from the other musicians. The clouds quietly disintegrate as the entrances become more staggered. Ten minutes or so into the piece, Feldman refines the opening gestures, expanding the interval leaps, and voicing chord clusters in numerous configurations. At the 22-minute mark, Feldman arrives back where he started, but in a parallel universe, so to speak, with the aforementioned minor seventh transformed into a major ninth (G to A), the chord clouds fuller of body, and increased rhythmic momentum."

The staggering between the violin and the string quartet is important to listen for... this is the dialogue that drives the piece. The staggering becomes extreme later on in the heightened depths of the second hour.

There is also pizzicato. In the second string quartet, this happens very early and throughout the piece (I haven't gone through the full second string quartet or for Philip Guston yet though!) But in the quintet, it only arrives well after a full hour, and makes an extreme contrast... even through there's like one pluck every few measures.


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## Albert7

Dude, you are awesome. One whole month to listen to lots of your works.


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## Albert7

And more listening to your stuff. Awesomeness!


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## SilverSurfer

Just issued on Italian label Stradivarius (known among my friends as "Straviadarius", because if you buy through their web directly and lose the package, they don't respond, better through Amazon):


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## Albert7

SilverSurfer said:


> Just issued on Italian label Stradivarius (known among my friends as "Straviadarius", because if you buy through their web directly and lose the package, they don't respond, better through Amazon):
> 
> View attachment 65605


Ooooo great find. Feldman's last composition here.


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## Albert7

Last two weeks to listen to more of your compositions. I have only begun to realize how much of your early compositions "resemble" that of Webern and how much you were exploring. Very refined and awesome compositions that's for sure.


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## Steve Kirby

I first heard Morton Feldman's "Rothko Windows" on BBC Radio 3 (?) about 10 years ago. I dislike most post-1945 so-caLLED "avant-garde" music e.g. Cage or Boulez or Birtwistle - but this music grabbed me immediately. Deeply moving and immediately accessible. I was struck by how effectively it uses choral singing as an integral component.


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## Albert7

Last month listening to your works was one of the most intense spiritual experiences in my life ever. I was moved extremely quite a bit.


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## Albert7

Last month listening to your works was one of the most intense spiritual experiences in my life ever. I was moved extremely quite a bit.


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## Albert7

Duplicate post.


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## Weston

I've listened to a few of Feldman's works trying to relate to some of those nominated in the post-1950 recommended list. Of those I have had time to hear (I'm not getting any younger), "Patterns in a Chromatic Field" may be my favorite. In general his music reminds me of Harold Budd, a kind of suspension in time. This comparison may annoy some of you, but it's what I hear.


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## Albert7

Weston said:


> I've listened to a few of Feldman's works trying to relate to some of those nominated in the post-1950 recommended list. Of those I have had time to hear (I'm not getting any younger), "Patterns in a Chromatic Field" may be my favorite. In general his music reminds me of Harold Budd, a kind of suspension in time. This comparison may annoy some of you, but it's what I hear.


That is awesome. I am glad that you are enjoying your sonic journey into Feldman's works.  Keep us posted on further works that you are listening to.


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## Muse Wanderer

Where was Morton all my life?

He may well be one of the giants of the late 20th century.

He took me places very few composers managed to these past two days...


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## Muse Wanderer

It's my Morton Feldman 2 day marathon and I am thrilled by the soundscape this composer paints in my mind.

Incredible tonality

Rhythm that changes in an instant and makes you wonder 'what next?'

Themes and motifs end up melodic after so much time in meditative listening.

This is so good it _really_ needs to be heard with an open mind ready to accept a different kind of music.

I would say listen but do _not_ think.

The music is simply exquisite, elating and perfect.

Listened to:









For Philip Guston.... that flute just pierces your brain with slowly changing motifs. The action starts after the first two hours or so, so patience is needed when one has assimilated the basic structures of the piece. The ending is utterly hypnotic!








Crippled Symmetry.... needs another spin to sink in but loved it from the start. I enjoyed its contrasts and different tones to Guston.









For John Cage... piano and strings with more gravity and episodes of utter bliss. The ending is monumental!

Piano and Strings Quartet ... a favourite of mine and my entry point to Feldman a few months back. Very, dare I say, relaxing.









Just now I am in the middle of his magnum opus, the second string quartet by Ives ensemble. Astonishingly good music. This string quartet is so good it's giving me goosebumps. I will continue this write up along with my listening session.

At times the music grabs me by the neck and demands my attention. At times I hear a funky cello pizzicato that is so much fun. Then I am transported back into an illusion, a universe few composers have managed to get me into.

Towards the last half of the string quartet the mood changes to a calmer more peaceful being. One gets occasional rhythmic bursts but these are subdued and controlled.

At around the four hour mark there is a repeating two note motif with basso continuo almost reminiscent of a 'Marcia Funebre'. This brings to memory the feeling I felt listening to Bach's chaconne for solo violin, Beethoven's late quartets and Mahler's 2nd symphony. This is followed by pizzicato on the strings and a return to this same two note motif. This last hour is utterly mesmerising.

The last 15 minutes is loaded with change in rhythms and recollection of past themes. The two note motif is now inversed with the second note higher and without basso continuo. There is no hint of a requiem like feel as earlier on. 
It feels like it is ascending towards the outer reaches of the cosmos and carries me, the listener, with it.

The second string quartet really feels like an allegory of life, starting with simple structures, growing into more spirited youthful themes with bursts of immature energy and ending into the later mature life bringing with it responsibility but satisfaction from the simple things in life filled with memories of sadness and joy.

The two notes do coalesce together into one form in the last few minutes. 
Yin and yang have now become one.
Id, ego and alter ego exist no more.

The exact last 2 minutes change the atmosphere completely. Being a medic I can only recollect this two note motif that is now in its original context as being similar to an ambulance siren! 
Could this mean that now death has taken hold, and the end is now?

The last seconds of this five hour quartet has this same motif with a major chord signifying something more important. 
An ending that befits this journey through life.

As I listen to the ending it feels like one's life itself is at an end and with it the composer has found his consolation, his joy at having lived. The last 15 minutes feel like a transfiguration of the soul into an eternal state of being.

The music lifts you up to the place where neither life nor death exist. A place where time and space stop and where eternity starts. The last few seconds are those moments when life expires and something else possibly starts.

Thank you Mr Feldman


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## Albert7

Muse Wanderer said:


> It's my Morton Feldman 2 day marathon and I am thrilled by the soundscape this composer paints in my mind.
> 
> Incredible tonality
> 
> Rhythm that changes in an instant and makes you wonder 'what next?'
> 
> Themes and motifs end up melodic after so much time in meditative listening.
> 
> This is so good it _really_ needs to be heard with an open mind ready to accept a different kind of music.
> 
> I would say listen but do _not_ think.
> 
> The music is simply exquisite, elating and perfect.
> 
> Listened to:
> 
> View attachment 68849
> 
> 
> For Philip Guston.... that flute just pierces your brain with slowly changing motifs. The action starts after the first two hours or so, so patience is needed when one has assimilated the basic structures of the piece. The ending is utterly hypnotic!
> 
> View attachment 68850
> 
> Crippled Symmetry.... needs another spin to sink in but loved it from the start. I enjoyed its contrasts and different tones to Guston.
> 
> View attachment 68851
> 
> 
> For John Cage... piano and strings with more gravity and episodes of utter bliss. The ending is monumental!
> 
> Piano and Strings Quartet ... a favourite of mine and my entry point to Feldman a few months back. Very, dare I say, relaxing.
> 
> View attachment 68852
> 
> 
> Just now I am in the middle of his magnum opus, the second string quartet by Ives ensemble. Astonishingly good music. This string quartet is so good it's giving me goosebumps. I will continue this write up along with my listening session.
> 
> At times the music grabs me by the neck and demands my attention. At times I hear a funky cello pizzicato that is so much fun. Then I am transported back into an illusion, a universe few composers have managed to get me into.
> 
> Towards the last half of the string quartet the mood changes to a calmer more peaceful being. One gets occasional rhythmic bursts but these are subdued and controlled.
> 
> At around the four hour mark there is a repeating two note motif with basso continuo almost reminiscent of a 'Marcia Funebre'. This brings to memory the feeling I felt listening to Bach's chaconne for solo violin, Beethoven's late quartets and Mahler's 2nd symphony. This is followed by pizzicato on the strings and a return to this same two note motif. This last hour is utterly mesmerising.
> 
> The last 15 minutes is loaded with change in rhythms and recollection of past themes. The two note motif is now inversed with the second note higher and without basso continuo. There is no hint of a requiem like feel as earlier on.
> It feels like it is ascending towards the outer reaches of the cosmos and carries me, the listener, with it.
> 
> The second string quartet really feels like an allegory of life, starting with simple structures, growing into more spirited youthful themes with bursts of immature energy and ending into the later mature life bringing with it responsibility but satisfaction from the simple things in life filled with memories of sadness and joy.
> 
> The two notes do coalesce together into one form in the last few minutes.
> Yin and yang have now become one.
> Id, ego and alter ego exist no more.
> 
> The exact last 2 minutes change the atmosphere completely. Being a medic I can only recollect this two note motif that is now in its original context as being similar to an ambulance siren!
> Could this mean that now death has taken hold, and the end is now?
> 
> The last seconds of this five hour quartet has this same motif with a major chord signifying something more important.
> An ending that befits this journey through life.
> 
> As I listen to the ending it feels like one's life itself is at an end and with it the composer has found his consolation, his joy at having lived. The last 15 minutes feel like a transfiguration of the soul into an eternal state of being.
> 
> The music lifts you up to the place where neither life nor death exist. A place where time and space stop and where eternity starts. The last few seconds are those moments when life expires and something else possibly starts.
> 
> Thank you Mr Feldman


Loving it... if you decide to do the Morton Feldman month (30 days of only Feldman) like I did, I would love to hear your thoughts on this.


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## Sonata

On a whim I picked up Coptic Light from the library. I don't do a lot of modern classical other than say a little bit of Glass and Arvo Part. This should be interesting...


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## Albert7

I really missed Feldman month. Such a powerful and spiritual experience. Liszt was fabulous as well.


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## SeptimalTritone

The second string quartet with the FLUX quartet... an impossible, infinite, extra-terrestrial experience.


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## Birdsong88

Feldman may not be the most suitable music to listen to while driving, but if you want to kick back and relax Feldman is the perfect composer. I like to pay close attention to his music and listen to the subtle changes has the piece progresses. I like his Rothko Chapel and his Coptic Light. I think here are two good introductory works to start out with. Not too long.


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## Selby

I've been listening to the Michael Tilson Thomas Coptic Light; can anyone compare the performance to the Michael Morgan recording? Anyone heard both?


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## Albert7

SeptimalTritone said:


> The second string quartet with the FLUX quartet... an impossible, infinite, extra-terrestrial experience.


Indeed, this masterwork I own from the iTunes download and it gets a good spin on my iPhone hopefully at least once every few months.


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## Guest

I just listened to Rothko Chapel and found it to be most enjoyable. I shall endeavour to look further into his music (when I have the time, it seems!)


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## seven four

Weston said:


> I've listened to a few of Feldman's works trying to relate to some of those nominated in the post-1950 recommended list. Of those I have had time to hear (I'm not getting any younger), "Patterns in a Chromatic Field" may be my favorite. In general his music reminds me of Harold Budd, a kind of suspension in time. This comparison may annoy some of you, but it's what I hear.


I think he was an influence on Harold Budd, they knew each other.

I got my start with Rothko Chapel many years ago. I think I was hearing it a lot on WNYC without knowing what it was.


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## Guest

dogen said:


> I just listened to Rothko Chapel and found it to be most enjoyable. I shall endeavour to look further into his music (when I have the time, it seems!)


Not one to rush...

I'm listening again...

Rothko Chapel
For Frank O'Hara

It is really...duh...beautifully peaceful music...

Thank you Mr Feldman.


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## Xenakiboy

dogen said:


> Not one to rush...
> 
> I'm listening again...
> 
> Rothko Chapel
> For Frank O'Hara
> 
> It is really...duh...beautifully peaceful music...
> 
> Thank you Mr Feldman.


Rushing and listening to Feldman aren't two things that can (or should) really be mixed


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## Guest

Xenakiboy said:


> Rushing and listening to Feldman aren't two things that can (or should) really be mixed


I'm gathering that!


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## Mandryka

I’m teetering on the edge of ordering the John Tilbury recordings on Atopos. Has anyone had the chance to hear any of them? 

Very much enjoying his recording of For John Cage with The Smith Quartet at the moment, I’ve just ordered his recording of Piano, Violin, Viola, Cello with The Smith Quartet on the strength of it.


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## millionrainbows

Listening to Morton Feldman's String Quartet no. 2 (not the whole thing), and it occurs to me after hearing a phrase repeated over and over: it sounds absurd! That's part of what he was trying to do, create a sense of absurdity, like Samuel Beckett. Pretty nihilistic compared to John Cage, in a way. This reminds me of the saying "Schopenhauer is like Buddhism without the joy." That's it, exactly! and probably the reason that all his MODE album covers are grey.
This should answer all the questions about Feldman: "Why is he keeping us waiting for so long? What's the point here? What is this? Where's the beef? How can he get away with this?"


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## millionrainbows

After reading through some of the posts, I am amused by comments like: "...thrilled by the soundscape this composer paints in my mind," "episodes of utter bliss," "...ascending towards the outer reaches of the cosmos," "Yin and yang have now become one," "Id, ego and alter ego exist no more." Oh really? Okay, that's a valid response, but I don't think it is in congruence with what Feldman's intent. I think Feldman was a little "darker" and existential than that. Remember, this was the 1950s, not the 1960s.
Similarly, this response:


mmsbls said:


> ...I listened to the Piano and String Quartet. I enjoyed what I heard, but I found it too repetitive to finish it. _From others' comments I think there's actually some very interesting things going on that make the work sound repetitive only to those who don't hear the detail. I obviously did not hear the detail._ I looked a bit for explanations of the work that might help me but I didn't find something useful...


Don't worry, you're almost there. No, there's nothing "interesting" going on here. The others have simply filled in the emptiness with their own brand of ecstatic subjectivity. If it's too repetitive to finish, then you haven't given it the full chance to bore you. But what does it matter? It's all meaningless anyway.


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## Mandryka

millionrainbows said:


> Listening to Morton Feldman's String Quartet no. 2 (not the whole thing), and it occurs to me after hearing a phrase repeated over and over: it sounds absurd! That's part of what he was trying to do, create a sense of absurdity, like Samuel Beckett. Pretty nihilistic compared to John Cage, in a way. This reminds me of the saying "Schopenhauer is like Buddhism without the joy." That's it, exactly! and probably the reason that all his MODE album covers are grey.
> This should answer all the questions about Feldman: "Why is he keeping us waiting for so long? What's the point here? What is this? Where's the beef? How can he get away with this?"


Have you heard any Jurg Frey? -- this quartet for example.


__
https://soundcloud.com/quatuor-bozzini%2Fj-rg-frey-streichquartett-ii


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## PeterFromLA

There was a Feldman month? How'd I manage to miss it?

I did get to witness a live performance of For Philip Guston at least, in November of 2019, however. The piece unfolded over four and a half hours or so, but time really lost importance, sitting in a gallery surrounded by Guston drawings and paintings, while listening to these delightfully obsessed sonic morsels that Feldman doled out like candies at a convention for sugar addicts.

http://www.mondayeveningconcerts.org/111119---morton-feldman-for-philip-guston.html


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## flamencosketches

millionrainbows said:


> Remember, this was the 1950s, not the 1960s.


Hmm? Most of Feldman's major works were written in the '60s, '70s and '80s. But you've got me curious, now, what are some good Feldman works from the '50s? As far as I know he was still using his "graph notation" techniques then and his music was quite different than what I know him for.

What you say about String Quartet No.2, the nihilism, the absurdity, the existentialisme sans joie. I think I would agree with you as regards that work, but by no means would I say those comments apply to the whole of Feldman. I think there is a lot more to it than what you say; his music doesn't just mean one thing, or _no_thing, but instead rewards a variety of views and interpretations. Anyway, I'm curious to know your sources for Feldman's intent, where he specifies that his music is supposed to be joyless, boring, and meaningless.

Anyway, the real reason I'm posting is just to celebrate the great music of Morton Feldman, which has been keeping me well occupied lately. It's powerful stuff, what he did is something big. I'm very glad to have discovered it in these past few weeks. I feel like I'm just getting started and that this music will be with me for years. I felt similarly when I discovered the music of Anton Webern, about this time last year.

Some of my favorite CDs:




























Anyone else been listening lately?


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## PeterFromLA

Extended interview of Feldman by Charles Amirkhanian, 1986, a year before his death.

https://archive.org/details/MFeldmanSOM/MFeldmanSOM1.wav

https://archive.org/details/MFeldmanSOM/MFeldmanSOM1.wav#


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## flamencosketches

PeterFromLA said:


> Extended interview of Feldman by Charles Amirkhanian, 1986, a year before his death.
> 
> https://archive.org/details/MFeldmanSOM/MFeldmanSOM1.wav
> 
> https://archive.org/details/MFeldmanSOM/MFeldmanSOM1.wav#


Excellent. Thanks, Peter.

Since I made that post a couple months ago, Feldman has definitely risen quickly in my estimation and I would now call him one of my favorite composers with gratitude. There is still so much of his music that I've yet to hear, but there are some works that I really cherish: Crippled Symmetry, Why Patterns?, Rothko Chapel, Bass Clarinet & Percussion, Two Pianos, The King of Denmark, For Franz Kline, etc... I'm still working on getting into some of the long-form pieces-the roughly hour-and-a-half long Crippled Symmetry is as far as I'll go, but that piece is sublime start to finish. It never loses my undivided attention for a second. Even when I try and multitask and read or something while listening, I invariably find my attention drifting back to the twists and turns of the music.

Feldman's music changed my life...


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## millionrainbows

flamencosketches said:


> Hmm? Most of Feldman's major works were written in the '60s, '70s and '80s. But you've got me curious, now, what are some good Feldman works from the '50s? As far as I know he was still using his "graph notation" techniques then and his music was quite different than what I know him for.


I was really referring to the 'pre-hippie' era, which lasted until maybe 1965/.



> What you say about String Quartet No.2, the nihilism, the absurdity, the existentialisme sans joie. I think I would agree with you as regards that work, but by no means would I say those comments apply to the whole of Feldman. I think there is a lot more to it than what you say; his music doesn't just mean one thing, or _no_thing, but instead rewards a variety of views and interpretations. Anyway, I'm curious to know your sources for Feldman's intent, where he specifies that his music is supposed to be joyless, boring, and meaningless.


That's just my general take on Feldman, in comparing him to Cage, whose aesthetic of sound is more Buddhist-based. I'm not trying to restrict anyone's view of Feldman, just trying to define him generally. And believe it or not, my take on Feldman has no "sources" other than maybe reading liner notes from the CDs. It's something I arrived at myself. I'm not trying to prove any point, but I do like to come across as confident-sounding for my own protection on the internet.


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## flamencosketches

millionrainbows said:


> I was really referring to the 'pre-hippie' era, which lasted until maybe 1965/.
> 
> That's just my general take on Feldman, in comparing him to Cage, whose aesthetic of sound is more Buddhist-based. I'm not trying to restrict anyone's view of Feldman, just trying to define him generally. And believe it or not, my take on Feldman has no "sources" other than maybe reading liner notes from the CDs. It's something I arrived at myself. I'm not trying to prove any point, but *I do like to come across as confident-sounding for my own protection on the internet.*


Well, I appreciate the honesty  I don't have any interest in depriving you of your conclusions and it's clear they are well thought out. I only took issue with what appeared to be your declaration that the reactions of so many people to Feldman's music were not "in congruence with what Feldman's intent", which led me to question what you know concretely of Feldman's intent. Statements like that, which aim to go inside the dead composer's head to determine his motivations, are always open to questioning, and tend to rub me the wrong way 9 times out of 10 (the main reason I detest arguing with Mahlerians who identify too personally with their composer of choice-who, as you may know from previous conversations, is a great favorite of mine). But I digress, you've arrived at your conclusions yourself, as have I (we can call mine a work in progress) and so many thousands of other lovers of Feldman's music. I think it's a beautiful thing that such outwardly simple music can generate such a multiverse of responses.

Anyway, I think we can both at least agree that Feldman was no hippy, and that there is some kind of ultimate darkness to his music. But I stand by that he was not setting out to write joyless, grey music, regardless of the imagery that a certain record label has decided to assign to his covers (which I would agree are excellent).


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## millionrainbows

flamencosketches said:


> Well, I appreciate the honesty  I don't have any interest in depriving you of your conclusions and it's clear they are well thought out. I only took issue with what appeared to be your declaration that the reactions of so many people to Feldman's music were not "in congruence with what Feldman's intent", which led me to question what you know concretely of Feldman's intent. Statements like that, which aim to go inside the dead composer's head to determine his motivations, are always open to questioning, and tend to rub me the wrong way 9 times out of 10 (the main reason I detest arguing with Mahlerians who identify too personally with their composer of choice-who, as you may know from previous conversations, is a great favorite of mine).


Oh, feel free to jump in whenever something rubs you the wrong way. that's what I do. When I started reading the reactions to Feldman being "meditative" and "one of the most spiritual experiences of my life," I chimed-in to correct our ship's course.

And, no, you don't have to thank me for defending Feldman against the "twins separated at birth" image, since removed.



> But I digress, you've arrived at your conclusions yourself, as have I (we can call mine a work in progress) and so many thousands of other lovers of Feldman's music. I think it's a beautiful thing that such outwardly simple music can generate such a multiverse of responses.


Yes, within reason, but there's always Tangerine Dream.



> Anyway, I think we can both at least agree that Feldman was no hippy, and that there is some kind of ultimate darkness to his music. But I stand by that he was not setting out to write joyless, grey music, regardless of the imagery that a certain record label has decided to assign to his covers (which I would agree are excellent).


The same thing could be said of Beckett.


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## PeterFromLA

Well, I think if you listen to Feldman in interviews, or read his essays, one of the things that comes through, constantly, is his deadpan sense of humor. It's just almost always there, or if not there, around the corner from being there. So, there is often a sense of absurdity behind his compositions in that he is pushing things to the extreme in places where extremes are not necessarily indicated. The lengthy pieces are an example of this, of course, but not only there. He has a bevy of titles for his pieces that read like inside jokes. It's not hard to imagine him having a great time writing his compositions, because as he says he doesn't write the pieces with a plan, he kind of finds his way through the piece as he writes it, often surprising himself with what he comes up with. The music sounds like a system playing itself out, but if it is a system, it's one that is emergent, rather than derived from a formula.

As he put it, "The whole idea is not to write a good piece. The whole idea is to get lost. To get lost and to come out."

I love the guy, and I love his music.


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## millionrainbows

It's nice that this humorous quality of Feldman is known, but what does it have to do with his art? Do you get a humorous effect from his music?

I think the humor is Feldman the man, but I don't hear this humor translating into any of the works, especially works such as Rothko Chapel. I personally don't think it was Feldman's intent to convey humor. The fact that he was a humorous person might have caused him to create his music with a sense of joy, but I don't hear it in the music. The music seems sombre, dark, and objective.

Maybe the incessant repetition of a three-note figure might begin to seem "ridiculous" after the twentieth repetition, and this is a kind of "absurd humor." Maybe I laugh at myself for expecting "something to happen" or for a "meaning to emerge." I'm ridiculous, and this is absurd.

But what exactly is the assertion here, that I am somehow "not getting the joke" of Feldman's music? Or is it that I reject the lighter "new age" interpretations of his music? For me, Feldman is greyness, darkness, like Giacometti.


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## PeterFromLA

The humor isn't really distinguishable from the darkness. Feldman's music seems to veer between a sense of hopelessness and absurdity, at one end, to a sense of wholeness and stillness, at the other. The one end suggests a searching quality, the other a sense of arrival, or if not that, then a sense of repose in exhaustion.

Feldman acknowledged an important figure as his greatest influence. Not a "composer" in the traditional sense, but a writer: Samuel Beckett. Beckett's work is imbued by all of these qualities. In Beckett's writing one comes across beings who are strangely compelled by the necessity of carrying on, amidst captured glimpses that it is utterly futile to do so. For me, this is the territory that Feldman's music inhabits. He was not afraid of encountering beauty during his wanderings, or moments of radiance, but he nonetheless was not unlike one of Beckett's "lost ones," looking for paths out of the labyrinths he had strewn for himself or, alternatively, unwittingly found himself in. 

That's how I picture it anyway.


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## Mandryka

PeterFromLA said:


> Feldman acknowledged an important figure as his greatest influence. Not a "composer" in the traditional sense, but a writer: Samuel Beckett. Beckett's work is imbued by all of these qualities. In Beckett's writing one comes across beings who are strangely compelled by the necessity of carrying on, amidst captured glimpses that it is utterly futile to do so. For me, this is the territory that Feldman's music inhabits. He was not afraid of encountering beauty during his wanderings, or moments of radiance, but he nonetheless was not unlike one of Beckett's "lost ones," looking for paths out of the labyrinths he had strewn for himself or, alternatively, unwittingly found himself in.
> 
> That's how I picture it anyway.


Well said.

Hs,CNN's kJ s


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## Mandryka

PeterFromLA said:


> The humor isn't really distinguishable from the darkness. Feldman's music seems to veer between a sense of hopelessness and absurdity, at one end, to a sense of wholeness and stillness, at the other. The one end suggests a searching quality, the other a sense of arrival, or if not that, then a sense of repose in exhaustion.


I am sure that there is comedy, absurdity, in Beckett. I'm less sure that they're there in Feldman, you may be right, but I'm not sure. Some examples of what you mean would be appreciated.

In _For Samuel Beckett _(what to make of those titles?) I don't recollect absurdity. It's a while since I heard the Beckett opera.


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## jegreenwood

Being redundant.


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## millionrainbows

Mandryka said:


> In _For Samuel Beckett _(what to make of those titles?) I don't recollect absurdity. It's a while since I heard the Beckett opera.


See post #76. /


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## jegreenwood

Long article in the Washington Post about listening to Feldman during the pandemic. A nuumber of recordings highlighted.


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## flamencosketches

jegreenwood said:


> Long article in the Washington Post about listening to Feldman during the pandemic. A nuumber of recordings highlighted.


Interesting. I've been listening to a lot of Feldman during the past few months, surely, but I didn't realize it was a mainstream enough trend to earn a place in the Washington Post.


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## millionrainbows

flamencosketches said:


> Interesting. I've been listening to a lot of Feldman during the past few months, surely, but I didn't realize it was a mainstream enough trend to earn a place in the Washington Post.


I guess that means your interests are much more mainstream than you suspected.


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## flamencosketches

millionrainbows said:


> I guess that means your interests are much more mainstream than you suspected.


In the case of Feldman's music I can only see that as a good thing. It is great seeing his music become more and more performed and accepted.


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## millionrainbows

flamencosketches said:


> In the case of Feldman's music I can only see that as a good thing. It is great seeing his music become more and more performed and accepted.


Yes, I agree with you, flamnco. I was just being mean again...


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## Richannes Wrahms

I sometimes see Feldman as the American spiritual successor to Webern.
In a way both gave to music something truly unique.
I only wish Feldman were as well recorded.


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