# Tristan, Isolde, You, and Flagstad (or maybe Nilsson?) PART II



## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Again, only if you have listened to a substantial (> 2 hours) worth.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

'52 Furtwangler is the only one I've heard or seen yet...oh well. It's a darn good one, so I don't mind.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

I've also only heard the 52 Furtwängler with Flagstad and Suthaus, but it's magical. Anything with Flagstad is, really. She was truly a fascinating woman. I'm reading a biography of hers which proves to be most interesting.

Also, I forgot, I am (hopefully) seeing a Tristan this spring in Oslo with Gary Lehman singing Tristan and Karen Foster singing Isolde.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Karajan/Vickers/Darnesch was first revelation, then the Kleiber/Kollo/Price made breakdown and I thought "well, perhaps there are other listenable recordings than Karajan!". And finally I've appreciated Furtwangler and Bohm. I briefly heard Solti too but hardly remember anything.


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## Rangstrom (Sep 24, 2010)

Still need to pick up the Solti (currently difficult to find) and the Barenboim.


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## Bill H. (Dec 23, 2010)

The Furtwangler/Flagstad is the one that has benchmarked the work for me as well. AND...the Brilliant Classics issue of the Furtwangler is now on sale at Presto Classical, for US$12.20 plus shipping.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Bill H. said:


> The Furtwangler/Flagstad is the one that has benchmarked the work for me as well. AND...the Brilliant Classics issue of the Furtwangler is now on sale at Presto Classical, for US$12.20 plus shipping.


I shall be hitting this up, I've bought excerpts from iTunes of the Furtwangler and was generally turned off by the recording quality, but clearly I need to suck it up and give the whole thing a run.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

I would love to see this opera live! My favorite by Wagner.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Aramis said:


> Karajan/Vickers/Darnesch was first revelation, then the Kleiber/Kollo/Price made breakdown and I thought "well, perhaps there are other listenable recordings than Karajan!". And finally I've appreciated Furtwangler and Bohm. I briefly heard Solti too but hardly remember anything.


It took me a while to appreciate the Karajan. It's quite slowly paced but the most erotic version I've heard. Darnesch lacks Nilssons raw power, but she hangs onto the big notes longer and they cut straight into the heart. I think the Bohm prelude and love duet are unmatched, but I may prefer Darnesch's Liebestod to Nilsson's.


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

I like Bohm's version the best. Yes it is quick but it also makes it exciting and Christa Ludwig is in much better form as Brangane than in the Karajan version. 

I think the Furtwangler version is good but please remember that Elisabeth Schwarzkopf did the high notes for Flagstad plus I am not greatly endeared to Ludwig Suthaus.

I have been lucky to see the piece live on a couple of occasions one being semi staged.

If you can handle the poor sound quality then try the live version from Bayreuth conducted by Karajan with Ramon Vinay and Martha Modl. Wonderful Wagner singing from a great era.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

The Bohm is the version I know best and is probably my favorite. He brings an edge and excitement to some moments that I've never quite heard elsewhere.

I saw a live performance at the Met, back in the early 80s, and remember just two things about it: 1) Gwyneth Jones hit a terribly flat note right near the very end of the liebestod ("höchste lust") and was roundly booed for it, and 2) there was a wonderful, career-making King Marke by a previously little-known bass named Matti Salminen.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Couchie said:


> It took me a while to appreciate the Karajan. It's quite slowly paced but the most erotic version I've heard. Darnesch lacks Nilssons raw power, but she hangs onto the big notes longer and they cut straight into the heart. I think the Bohm prelude and love duet are unmatched, but I may prefer Darnesch's Liebestod to Nilsson's.


Women aisde, Vickers is the most gloomy knight you could ever find. It gives the recording unique brand.


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## Rangstrom (Sep 24, 2010)

The leads on the Kleiber would barely survive a live performance, but as a recording it is an overwhelming experience. Furtwängler, Böhm, Reiner, Barenboim and von Karajan are all excellent recordings in their own right.

I recently picked up the Bayreuth '53 Jochum, Vinay, Varnay recording that looks promising. 

The '50 Reiner is worth a listen for Traubel, but the sound is brutal.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

The Karajan/Vickers/Darnesch recording was not only the first _Tristan und Isolde_ I ever heard... but quite possibly the first opera recording I ever listened to in its entirety as I was just starting to explore classical music. As Couchie stated, it is the most erotic Tristan... a slow evolving eroticism of icy perfectionism that reminds me of Hitchcok's _Vertigo_ or a painting by Ingres. It is still the unrivaled standard in my book in spite of the fact that I quite love Furtwangler's recording... and almost anything by Flagstad, especially the selections recording with the San Francisco Opera in 1939.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

jflatter said:


> I think the Furtwangler version is good but please remember that Elisabeth Schwarzkopf did the high notes for Flagstad plus I am not greatly endeared to Ludwig Suthaus.


Do you have a source for that? I can't find anything about it anywhere.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Aksel said:


> Do you have a source for that? I can't find anything about it anywhere.


It's a pretty well-known anecdote (supposedly true). Here's a site where it's mentioned briefly:

http://www.classicalcdreview.com/flagstad.htm

. . . and I just found this site that goes into it in a good deal more detail:

http://listserv.bccls.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0911B&L=OPERA-L&P=4756


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

amfortas said:


> It's a pretty well-known anecdote (supposedly true). Here's a site where it's mentioned briefly:
> 
> http://www.classicalcdreview.com/flagstad.htm
> 
> ...


Waddayaknow. I'm reading a biography on her, and as it turns out, I was about 150 pages from finding out myself. She even did it on several occasions.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Aksel said:


> Waddayaknow. I'm reading a biography on her, and as it turns out, I was about 150 pages from finding out myself. She even did it on several occasions.


We *are* still talking about interpolated high C's, right?


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

amfortas said:


> We *are* still talking about interpolated high C's, right?


Yes. It seems like the first time Schwarzkopf was asked to help Flagstad was for a Siegfried she (meaning Flagstad) did at Covent Garden in 1950 (I think. I don't have the book with me). Flagstad wanted to play it safe, although Schwarzkopf later remarked that her high C's had lost nothing of their former glory, rather to the contrary. But Flagstad was rather worried about her voice. I believe Schwarzkopf also did it in the Dido and Aeneases (where she also sang Belinda(in the recording)) Flagstad did in 1951, and then finally, in the famous Tristan of 1952. I think. Parenthesis.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

She must have been some kind of ultraperfectionist. I'm sure her 'bad' high C's were better than any sung today.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

Couchie said:


> She must have been some kind of ultraperfectionist. I'm sure her 'bad' high C's were better than any sung today.


Oh, she was. She was brought up to do EVERYTHING perfect and she had an almost manic work ethic. Much because of her mother who decided that whatever her daughter did, she would excel in.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Yeah, they also have a note about the Flagstad/Schwarzkopf high Cs in the liner notes of my issue of the recording itself. It talks about how Flagstad approved of them and said that when you sing that high there's no real way to tell whether it's really her singing or not, so it was an appropriate choice given the medium.


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## Bill H. (Dec 23, 2010)

Couchie said:


> I shall be hitting this up, I've bought excerpts from iTunes of the Furtwangler and was generally turned off by the recording quality, but clearly I need to suck it up and give the whole thing a run.


The sound on the Furtwangler isn't the greatest, I will admit. There's a reason why EMI stands for Every Mistake Imaginable:-\. 
It's too bad he didn't record for Decca, even in those early LP days.

That said, partly due to this thread I will likely try the Bohm with Nilsson and Windgassen.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

Bill H. said:


> The sound on the Furtwangler isn't the greatest, I will admit. There's a reason why EMI stands for Every Mistake Imaginable:-\.
> It's too bad he didn't record for Decca, even in those early LP days.
> 
> That said, partly due to this thread I will likely try the Bohm with Nilsson and Windgassen.


Sure, the sound on the Furtwängler isn't the greatest, but you get a mature Flagstad at the peak of her expressive, if not vocal powers.


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## Bill H. (Dec 23, 2010)

Aksel said:


> Sure, the sound on the Furtwängler isn't the greatest, but you get a mature Flagstad at the peak of her expressive, if not vocal powers.


No argument there!


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

Furtwängler, Böhm, Karajan (Vickers/Dernesch), other (Barenboim/Kollo/J. Meier DVD), Pappano, another other (Barenboim/Lehman/Dalayman radio broadcast) and have seen live (Levine/Heppner/Voigt).

Also have heard Melchior *and Leider* in excerpt, c. 1929.

Many good CD versions... my favorite is Karajan-Jon-Helga. Böhm is outstanding, too.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Chi_townPhilly said:


> Furtwängler, Böhm, Karajan (Vickers/Dernesch), other (Barenboim/Kollo/J. Meier DVD), Pappano, another other (Barenboim/Lehman/Dalayman radio broadcast) and have seen live (Levine/Heppner/Voigt).
> 
> Also have heard Melchior *and Leider* in excerpt, c. 1929.
> 
> Many good CD versions... my favorite is Karajan-Jon-Helga. Böhm is outstanding, too.


There's another thread here for DVD versions: http://www.talkclassical.com/13979-tristan-isolde-you.html


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