# The Ninths



## Guest (Aug 2, 2008)

Which ninth Symphony do you like the most, finished or not, as a work not a particular performance and why ? An interesting article that lists some that are not well known is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_the_ninth .


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

One is *nearly* as spoiled for choice with Symphony 9 as with Symphony 5. Yet, it was Michael Steinberg, I believe, who reinforced the point that if one says "The Ninth," the presumption is that one is referring to Beethoven's final symphony... and understandably so.

"[Beethoven's 9th] brought music into the realm of universal art. Beyond it, no further step is possible, for upon it only the perfect art world of the future can follow, the universal drama for which Beethoven forged the key." Richard Wagner

I don't necessarily agree with the whole cloth of this quote, but it does show that Beethoven's work is an example of something that, once created, proved a nexus inspiration for that which followed. I don't wish to minimize the significance of the other outstanding 9th Symphonies. For me, however, the order is:

1) Beethoven
2) Mahler
3) Dvořák
4) Bruckner
5) Schubert


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## Guest (Aug 3, 2008)

For those of you who check out the Wikipedia article (which is not just silly but also very much out of date), you may be interested to know that Dvořák, who's there as an example of people who died during or shortly after writing their ninth, lived for eleven years after writing his ninth. Eleven very active years, too. Just not writing any more symphonies that's all.

What always interests me about this topic, aside from the dozens of composers who've written more than nine, is all the composers who wrote fewer. Were these people extra cursed? Berlioz, Schumann, Saint-Saens, Grieg, Franck, Searle, Corcoran... Slackers!!

But that's as may be.

Ib Nørholm
Roger Sessions
Egon Wellesz
Allan Pettersson
Dmitri Shostakovich

Why? Well, mostly because, for the first three, their ninth culminates a lifetime of work. So it's their most advanced work for full orchestra. (Advanced as a specifically individual meaning. After a certain date, maybe 1928?, no one's symphony of any number is gonna be advanced in a general sense.) For the latter two, they're just nice works, especially the Shostakovich, which is more like Stravinsky or Prokofiev than any other of his works. At least that's what it says here.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

No. 1 on the list is Beethoven's of course.

After that the Bruckner. It's fantastic, though it comes across to me as a series of Wagnerian overtures rather than as a symphony for some reason.

After that . . sigh. Can I throw in Brahms 4th? 

As to why, I just don't need many favorites after the Beethoven. I enjoy most of the others, but they're not favorites. The Mahler is so much romantic bombast to me and I can scarcely find any rhythm to latch onto in the first movement. Shostakovich? No - I prefer his chamber works and concerti. The Dvorak is a great work horse, but I don't really need to hear it again after binging on it as a kid (when it was called the 5th).


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## Yagan Kiely (Feb 6, 2008)

Mahler
Beethoven
Bruckner
Schubert


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

I just don't get Beethoven's...

1) Mahler
2) Beethoven
3) Dvorak

Won't stop me putting it second, though; it is terrifically dramatic. The last movement just loses it, though. The preceding movements promise something overwhelmingly huge and all one gets is terrible vocal writing. The entrance of the first soloist isn't particularly amazing either, the guy just stands up and sings his part.

Mahler's Ninth, on the other hand, doesn't go for the big effect, but is quiet, intimate, straightforward in its emotional content, the inner movements being what I would describe as telling everything to a close, close friend. And then there's the last movement, in my opinion the most overwhelmingly emotional thing the man ever wrote. And he is saying goodbye to more than the world; rather, saying goodbye to music as anybody up to that time had known it, as the preceding two movements had suggested the idea of atonality blossoming in the near future, and a world divided by so many -isms as to make one's head spin.

Surely it hasn't the heaven-storming drama as Beethoven's Ninth, but in my opinion it is at least as great, and besides, why would a piece have to be dramatic and revolutionary in order to be great? I agree that Beethoven's is a great Ninth, but I see it more as an historical event, that isn't quite so relevant to our time as it was to his. 180 years ago it signified freedom and simultaneously raised the standards of symphonic thought and destroyed the previous concept of symphonic thought. So obviously we owe a debt to Beethoven's revolutionary Ninth... but what after all is said and done? There are still greater symphonies than Beethoven's Ninth; people just don't look at them without this mindset of Beethoven as "the greatest composer" and thereby regard with skepticism other composers.

After all, it is a matter of opinion anyway.


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## Yagan Kiely (Feb 6, 2008)

Ooh update:

Mahler
Shosta
Beethoven
Bruckner
Schubert

And you can hear certain elements of Shosta in Mahler 9/10


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## David C Coleman (Nov 23, 2007)

Of the "Ninths" I've heard, I'm putting Schubert's at the top. I think it's a fantastically written. A little bit repetitive admittedly. But has a real presence about it.
Second comes Beethoven's, because it is, as is typical with LvB, revolutionary and influential to the third and forth place "Ninths", Mahler the Bruckner.
Fifth place I would put Dvoraks. It's always sounds so melodic!!..


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## woodwind_fan (Sep 9, 2008)

I like Dvorak and Vaughan Williams's Ninths. And they're both in E Minor. Hmmmmm


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## bertalm (Sep 10, 2008)

Mahler's 9th, especially the great adagio. Like the great (and only finnished movement) 10th adagio of Mahler. Very similar to the 9th adagio.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Shosty's Ninth... it completely thumbs its nose at the whole point of this thread and enjoys it, and that's why I'll put it in the same place as did Yagan Kiely, with Mahler before and Beethoven after. And then Dvorak.


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2008)

Dear World,

Weston, Yagan Kiely, and I are not one person.

--some guy (who was the first to mention the shostakovich, after all!)


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## Atabey (Oct 8, 2008)

1-Beethoven=Mahler
3-Shostakovich and then the rest.


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