# Composers' weaknesses



## Aurelian (Sep 9, 2011)

What do you consider the weaknesses of the composers? Here are mine.

Beethoven for me is the weakest melodist of the major composers. Mozart, Schubert, Bizet, and Tchaikovsky are much better in this regard.

Schubert can be repetitive and the endings to some works can drag on too long.

There are great passages in Wagner, but he is "inefficient", let's say. Maybe he had an excessive supply of manuscript paper.

Similarly, slow boring passages in Shostakovich tend to last too long.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

What people who don't care for a composer point to as weaknesses are often not perceived as weaknesses by those who do like that composer. 

I can't think of any weak melodies in Beethoven. I find his his melodic ideas striking and strong and perfectly adapted to his purposes. Schubert, as a melodist, was somewhat the opposite of Beethoven; a natural song composer, he had an approach to long forms shaped by that predilection. But remember that Schumann referred to Schubert's "heavenly lengths." And listeners in his time were probably more tolerant of repeats, just as we tolerate repetitions in contemporary music. Wagner was writing opera, in which the music is shaped by the drama and text; some people find him slow going, others wouldn't be without a measure. As for Shostakovich, if you've already decided that some slow passages are boring then you will naturally find those passages too long. Anything that bores us is too long. 

Do Schubert or Wagner or Shostakovich ever go on too long? Maybe. But for those who don't care for a composer, almost any amount can be too much. Who is the best judge of their strengths and weaknesses?


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

In regards to *Shostakovich*, I would say his main weakness is his inconsistency. He wrote pieces that are moving and gripping (Symphonies IV, V, VIII, XIII, Lady Macbeth, Piano Sonatas), and yet managed to write pieces that can be rather too facile for their own good (Symphonies, II, III, XII). Much (or most) of the blame was external (Stalinism, its purges, its enforcements of dogma, the changing nomenklatura after Stalinism). As for the others I can think of:

*Tchaikovsky:* Not so keen on structure, and, as his piano music testifies, a tendency to rant.
*Glazunov:* Structurally strong, but sometimes facile and lazy (he would have benefitted by revising some of his works).
*Weinberg:* More or less the same as Shostakovich.
*Atterberg:* Too heavy on the orchestration (though not as bad as Rangstrom).
*Rachmaninoff:* A great melodist, but with a tendency to be mawkish.
*Milhaud:* His quest to mix serious music with fun music leads to some feeble, inconsistent writing and structural deficiencies. 
*Villa-Lobos:* His symphonies are weak structurally, but with often very interesting, colorful ideas.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

I consider Beethoven to be the greatest melodist of all composers with Mozart a close second. As for the other criticisms of too many repeats and works being too long, I think it's important to remember that these works were composed for live performances. The average listener would only hear a given concerto, symphony etc. only a few times, if more than once. Our ability to hear recordings over and over only makes us more aware of characteristics that (perhaps) bother us.


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## Scopitone (Nov 22, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Anything that bores us is too long.


I can attest to this fact! If I can digress to rock music for a moment: Once, I went with some friends to see Joe Satriani and Dream Theater. I didn't know their music much, but my friends had an extra ticket.

I was so bored. The concert seemed to go on forever. Towards the end, I finally got up and walked out to the lobby just to keep from falling asleep. When it was over, my friends were talking about how it was one of the greatest shows they had ever seen. (And overheard comments from other audience members seemed to agree with that assessment.)


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

Their sexuality!

You know some were asexual, or married but barely had good relationships with their wife. Some were plain pedo... 
I mean come on! They should have known about Hip Hop singers and how lustful their lifestyle and music videos are... for the greater good! :lol:

But humor aside I have a good video for you.






Some geniuses reach the highest level of intellect because of excluding those stuff from their lives it seems.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

I think those who think Beethoven was a weak melodist have a too narrow definition of melody - the kind that Tchaikovsky or Schubert are known for. Beethoven's melodies are often more fragmentary, open-ended motifs suitable for thematic development. That's why he was one of, if not the greatest, symphonic composer. I find rich melody even in pieces like the first movements of his 3rd or 5th symphonies.


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## Abraham Lincoln (Oct 3, 2015)

Mendelssohn likes Beethoven too much.


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## Xenakiboy (May 8, 2016)

Abraham Lincoln said:


> Mendelssohn likes Beethoven too much.


But you can change that can't you????


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## Xenakiboy (May 8, 2016)

Mendelssohn couldn't lift 40kg weights, I think that was a huge weakness he was never able to overcome


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## Bruckner Anton (Mar 10, 2016)

I do not have sufficient knowledge to make judgment on the works by those most respected composers in the history of music.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Bruckner Anton said:


> I do not have sufficient knowledge to make judgment on the works by those most respected composers in the history of music.


That's a modest answer .


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Weaknesses of composers? Well ... I don't know. But I do know I haven't seen photos or pictures of any composers on the walls at any of the local gyms. I mean, Rocky's pic is there. And Schwarzenegger's. And I've seen photos of a couple of fellows named Ali and Foreman ... and even one black and white photo of the Decathlete formerly known as Bruce Jenner! But no composers, for sure. So ... I don't know. Weaknesses? You tell me. I'll keep reading this thread.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Composers that depended too much on orchestration and developmental techniques and not enough on their actual thematic content... If someone writes a dissertation with perfect form, fluency and presentation quality... but it's on a topic that I couldn't care less about... that's what I compare those composers to.


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## drpraetorus (Aug 9, 2012)

Not so much as a composer, but as a dramatist, Wagner needed a good editor.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

SONNET CLV said:


> Weaknesses of composers? Well ... I don't know. But I do know I haven't seen photos or pictures of any composers on the walls at any of the local gyms. I mean, Rocky's pic is there. And Schwarzenegger's. And I've seen photos of a couple of fellows named Ali and Foreman ... and even one black and white photo of the Decathlete formerly known as Bruce Jenner! But no composers, for sure. So ... I don't know. Weaknesses? You tell me. I'll keep reading this thread.


On the other hands , no pictures/ paintings from those guys you mentioned in concert halls.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

drpraetorus said:


> Not so much as a composer, but as a dramatist, Wagner needed a good editor.


But, would you say that to his face?

I didn't think so. The little guy _did_ have quite a temper, one almost as big as his narcissism.

I often wonder -- if Wagner weren't so ... _Wagnerish_, would we even have all those wonderful operas?


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

SONNET CLV said:


> Weaknesses of composers? Well ... I don't know. But I do know I haven't seen photos or pictures of any composers on the walls at any of the local gyms. I mean, Rocky's pic is there. And Schwarzenegger's. And I've seen photos of a couple of fellows named Ali and Foreman ... and even one black and white photo of the Decathlete formerly known as Bruce Jenner! But no composers, for sure. So ... I don't know. Weaknesses? You tell me. I'll keep reading this thread.





Pugg said:


> On the other hands , no pictures/ paintings from those guys you mentioned in concert halls.


But, there is _this_, coming up at the Kimmel in Philadelphia:  Rocky v. the Symphony 

Er, I mean "Rocky in Concert".

And -- here's a CD I don't yet have in my collection, but perhaps should. I think I'd enjoy it.

 The Greatest Themes From The Films Of Arnold Schwarzenegger . It features the Prague Philharmonic Orchestra.


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Schubert - prostitutes
Webern - smoking

OK I'll stop


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## Tarneem (Jan 3, 2022)

I think Mozart weakness is that his music lacks sweat. it doesn't have that spiritual fever that you get when you listen to Bach.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Sibelius' greatest weakness? Booze.


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## Wilhelm Theophilus (Aug 8, 2020)

Tarneem said:


> I think Mozart weakness is that his music lacks sweat. it doesn't have that spiritual fever that you get when you listen to Bach.


You'll need to edit this post again so we can understand what your talking about


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

This is actually an interesting question, but one full of dragons.

I'd make the following observations without necessarily calling them weaknesses because there are so many ancillary issues having to do with each composer's time period.

*Bach* ~ He wrote no operas. His Saint Matthew's Passion is often compared to an opera. Is this a weakness? Was Bach better at writing religious set-pieces than "dramatic" opera arias? Possibly. Bach may not have had a dramatist's instincts, his Passions notwithstanding.
*Haydn* ~ Probably the most notable "weakness" in Haydn is the relative absence of real chromatic pathos or grief. His slow movements, at least to me, are rarely more than just slow versions of his Allegros. 
*Mozart* ~ Mozart's liturgical music (HK trigger warning) was the least forward looking of all the genres he wrote in. He was uncharacteristically conservative in his liturgical compositions. Was he too attached to the Salzburg tradition and for too long?
*Beethoven* ~ Besides a lost oboe concerto, he wrote no wind concerti. His violin concerto notwithstanding, his temperament and melodic ideas may have been ill-suited for the kind of singing lyricism Mozart could produce with ease in concertos for the oboe, violin, violin and viola, clarinet, etc... Beethoven's Triple Concerto, requiring lyricism from both the cello and violin, is generally considered his weakest orchestral work. He wrote a handful of songs and just one opera. Does this make Beethoven a weak melodist? No, but he might have been ill-suited to a certain kind of singing lyricism that came far more easily to the likes of Mozart and Schubert.
*Schubert* ~ Schubert reminds me of Bach in that he struck me as a composer of set pieces. He establishes a mood (in his hundreds of songs) and can evoke that mood with unmatched genius from beginning to end; but ask him to modulate his music for dramatic or narrative purposes and he seems to stumble. I think it's the reason he was never as successful with opera. Like Bach, Schubert seemed to possess a better sense for "expressive mood" than for drama. 
*Brahms* ~ Brahms, like Beethoven, seemed ill-suited to the kind of lyricism one would expect from a flute concerto, opera, or ballet (Tchaikovsky). That sort of sweet melodic invention just didn't seem to be in his toolkit.

Set free the dragons...


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> I think those who think Beethoven was a weak melodist have a too narrow definition of melody - the kind that Tchaikovsky or Schubert are known for. Beethoven's melodies are often more fragmentary, open-ended motifs suitable for thematic development. That's why he was one of, if not the greatest, symphonic composer. I find rich melody even in pieces like the first movements of his 3rd or 5th symphonies.


As a melodist Beethoven seems to be at his strongest in his symphonies - concertos - piano sonatas. Cant fault him there. I think my reason for failing to connect with Beethoven's quartets is actually I don't find them interesting melodically. Same with the piano trios really - the the archduke has some good stuff in it - yet I prefer Schubert's two piano trios which are awash with appealing melodies. But no on the whole I dont think Beethoven was anything but a top class melodist.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

vtpoet said:


> *Beethoven* ~ Besides a lost oboe concerto, he wrote no wind concerti. His violin concerto notwithstanding, his temperament and melodic ideas may have been ill-suited for the kind of singing lyricism Mozart could produce with ease in concertos for the oboe, violin, violin and viola, clarinet, etc... Beethoven's Triple Concerto, requiring lyricism from both the cello and violin, is generally considered his weakest orchestral work. He wrote a handful of songs and just one opera. Does this make Beethoven a weak melodist? No, but he might have been ill-suited to a certain kind of singing lyricism that came far more easily to the likes of Mozart and Schubert.


Well, I'm no critic, but I rank the Triple Concerto amongst the strongest by Beethoven, or at least as one of my favorites. I certainly prefer it over his first three piano concertos and maybe even the Violin Concerto. In my opinion what it really lacked was someone famous to rediscover and support it in the 19th century, like was the case with Op. 61 and Joseph Joachim. There is an entire doctoral thesis *here* arguing that despite the criticisms it received over time it is actually a great piece (my view), in case you want to read.

Also, I find the criticism of Beethoven as a composer incapable of composing great lyrical melodies invalid, as there are many examples of his beautiful lyrical side, for example in the _Pastoral_ symphony (movements 2 and 5), in the already cited Triple and Violin concertos, in the _Emperor_ concerto (2nd movement), in the _Pathétique_ and _Tempest_ sonatas (2nd movements), in the two Romances for violin and orchestra, in the Andante Favori, in the _Ninth_ symphony (the third movement is pure lyricism in my opinion), in the slow movements of the late string quartets (don't tell me that you've never heard the sublime second movement of Op. 127 for example) etc.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

It's a work my father has a high opinion of (the way the 3 soloists "seem to fight each other" in the final movement):


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## Tarneem (Jan 3, 2022)

@Wilhelm Theophilus 

lol


okay, let's say that you are in a race, and you had the choice to listen to a violin concerto. would you chose to listen to a concerto composed by Bach or Mozart??? 

Mozart's compositions (at least for me) doesn't get my blood flowing


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## Wilhelm Theophilus (Aug 8, 2020)

Tarneem said:


> @Wilhelm Theophilus
> 
> lol
> 
> ...


Conclusion: You must not be familiar with a lot of Mozart's work.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Tarneem said:


> Mozart's compositions (at least for me) doesn't get my blood flowing


If one hears this or this and his blood doesn't get flowing, I don't know what would do.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

Aurelian said:


> Beethoven for me is the weakest melodist of the major composers.


a composer's intention is not write great melodies but to deliver an information.


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## Tarneem (Jan 3, 2022)

Xisten267 said:


> If one hears this or this and his blood doesn't get flowing, I don't know what would do.


For the record, I absolutely don't question Mozart's genius (God forbade). It's just a matter of taste


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Tarneem said:


> For the record, I absolutely don't question Mozart's genius (God forbade). It's just a matter of taste


Of course, of course, we all have ours. I apologize if my post seemed intrusive.


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