# Most difficult orchestral works for performers



## rojo

Just finished listening to/watching a performance of _Mouvement_ by Helmut Lachenmann, and I was struck by how difficult this work must be to perform. The percussionists are terribly busy. The wind players have to remove their mouthpieces for parts of the work, and then must put the instrument back together for others. How does one check the tuning after taking it apart? Players are required to use various non-traditional techniques, including hitting the tops of their mouthpiece-less instruments with their palms. Not to mention all the string players' bowing techniques etc.

So here's the question. What are some of the hardest works for an orchestra to play? Specifically for numerous players of the group, not just one instrument in particular. Springing to mind is _Concerto for Orchestra_ by Bartok. It has busy percussionists, and all those tricky duet pairings in the wind section, similar to the Lachenmann work. Although surely it's not _as_ difficult, or complicated.

In case anyone wants to hear the Lachenmann, here's the performance I listened to. It's the first time I've heard the work, so I don't know how well this version stacks up against others. It seemed pretty well done, especially considering the level of difficulty involved.

Bonus question. This work features a very prominent broken major chord. Can you find it?

First person to indicate in which part (the performance had to be split into three parts; I'll just post the first part, the other two aren't hard to find) and at what time in the part wins... well, nothing. Or maybe the TC 'fastest broken major chord spotter' award? Ok, ready? GO! 






Just to add, I really enjoyed this work, and will give it another 'spin' in the near future. I'm sure I haven't picked up on many of it's elements. This complex a work obviously requires more than just one listen.


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## GraemeG

> So here's the question. What are some of the hardest works for an orchestra to play?


Mozart. 
Seriously.
Most of the time in later music sheer technical difficulty is shared around - or can be handled some way or other. But classical repertoire leaves nowhere to hide, it's so exposed. Another spot is the 2-bar bassoon solo near the end of the finale in Beethoven's 4th. Fiendish.
cheers,
Graeme


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## Jeremy Marchant

rojo said:


> Just finished listening to/watching a performance of _Mouvement_ by Helmut Lachenmann, and I was struck by how difficult this work must be to perform. ...


I agree with someone else that Mozart is probably harder. But I would commend Lachenmann to anyone - just to provoke them. Lachenmann, like Stockhausen, is a true subversive; Kagel, Ligeti and the rest are just playing at it.


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## Sid James

Elliot Carter's _Concerto for Orchestra? Or his Symphony for 3 orchestras_? I'm not sure, I'm only a layman, not a musician, but judging by how rarely these pieces are performed (at least here in Australia), I'd guess that part of the reason is their complexity & the long rehearsal time required, difficult to afford in these cash-strapped times. But there's also the fact that this will never be "popular" music, and so (might not) put bums on seats...


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## superhorn

The Mahler symphonies are particularly difficult for brass players because of their great length and tiring parts for these instruments, and they're hardly easy for the rest of the orchestra.
Endurance and lip fatigue,particularly for the horns, is a big problem. Bruckner symphonies are also very long and tiring for the brass in the same way.
Some string players find the constant tremolos in the Brickner symphonies very tiring to play.
In American and English orchestras, the first horn has an assistant first who helps him
save his strength for the solos,and will take over during certain passages to help him conserve his lip, as well as sometimes doubling louder passages to reinforce the sound of the horns. 
The assistant is the first horn's lifeline.
The Richard Strauss tone poems are also very difficult for every section, if not as long as the Bruckner and Mahler symphonies.


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## Huge

Is Stravinsky's RoS (Rite of Spring) not considered that hard anymore?


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## superhorn

It's still quite difficult, but professional orchestral musicians have played it so often it's not nearly the challenge it was when it was new.
I've played it myself, and the constant meter changes are pretty tricky.


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## Sid James

Huge said:


> Is Stravinsky's RoS (Rite of Spring) not considered that hard anymore?


I understand Stravinsky revised the _Rite _decades later to make it more "playable" & the new version is what is played mostly today...


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## Tapkaara

Oh my goodness! This is an awful, unoriginal work. This could have been whipped up by any avant-gardist in the mid-part of the last century. Is there any individuality here?

OK, I get it...this composer is pushing instruments to their extremes to explore the rich timbral tapestry of a chamber orchestra to make it sound in the most unique an unexpected way possible. But what's it worth when the end results sounds like this? Anyone who finds value in this must be a snob of the first order.

Just abysmal.


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## Huge

Excuse me?


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## hlolli

this is very hard, the score is brutal.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Stravinsky's _The Rite of Spring_? Yawn. Marginally better than Schoenberg's junk.


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## Aramis

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Stravinsky's _The Rite of Spring_? Yawn. Marginally better than Schoenberg's junk.


You saw Schoenberg's junk? What were you doing in his trashcan? Och, I see. I'm sorry you you did not succeed in life.


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## tgtr0660

John Cage's 4:33 is impossible to play....


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## Argus

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Stravinsky's _The Rite of Spring_? Yawn. Marginally better than Schoenberg's junk.


It's nice to know you've personally inspected Schoenberg's genitals but what does that have to do with his music.


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## Huge

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Stravinsky's _The Rite of Spring_? Yawn. Marginally better than Schoenberg's junk.


Coming from someone called Harpischord concerto... that's very funny.


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## Guest

Tapkaara said:


> Oh my goodness! This is an awful, unoriginal work. This could have been whipped up by any avant-gardist in the mid-part of the last century. Is there any individuality here?
> 
> OK, I get it...this composer is pushing instruments to their extremes to explore the rich timbral tapestry of a chamber orchestra to make it sound in the most unique an unexpected way possible. But what's it worth when the end results sounds like this? Anyone who finds value in this must be a snob of the first order.
> 
> Just abysmal.


I agree (other than the part about people being snobs).

Certainly, within the confines of this discussion, this certainly would be a difficult piece to perform. But I think a more apt thread for this piece would be "Most difficult/painful orchestral works for listeners." I don't honestly understand where the joy in listening to such "music" comes from. It almost made me laugh to see the conductor "conducting" this work. Whereas, historically, musicians sought to master their instruments, bringing the most sublime of sounds forth, this work seems to focus on doing just the opposite - creating the most annoying, distracting noises possible from instruments.


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## MJTTOMB

Precisely. It's ugly music, but it's artful music. The entire intent of the work was to be a portrayal of spring. The piece is about sex and birth rather than new life. It's a work about flesh and a work about mud rather than about spring rains.

Not to be "snobbish", but I really do enjoy it. I'm not telling you that you don't have taste in music because you DON'T enjoy it, but you folks are insulting my musical tastes by telling me Stravinsky's work is essentially worthless. Who's the snob?


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Aramis said:


> You saw Schoenberg's junk? What were you doing in his trashcan? Och, I see. I'm sorry you you did not succeed in life.


Sorry, I should not have used the word "junk". I withdraw that usage. Instead, I shall describe Schoenberg's music as _entartete Kunst_. (Look that up if you don't know what it means, and I'm sure your Avatar, Mr Wagner would completely approve, too).

Have a good day.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Huge said:


> Coming from someone called Harpischord concerto... that's very funny.


Thanks. I'm glad some folks have a sense of humour aound here.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Argus said:


> It's nice to know you've personally inspected Schoenberg's genitals but what does that have to do with his music.


That was pretty funny. Whether you intended it or not.


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## Argus

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> That was pretty funny. Whether you intended it or not.


Well it was funnier than the heroin joke. I just saw that Monsieur Aramis played the wrong card.


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## Huilunsoittaja

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Instead, I shall describe Schoenberg's music as _entartete Kunst_.


Yes, or as in "recherché" cacophony? 

But back onto subject.

I think Prokofiev's Classical Symphony tortures flutes (Russians tend to do that). In the finale, most instruments aren't really stressed that much, which makes it odd that the flutes have such unusually technical passages in contrast. Often reaches to our highest limits, which Prokofiev also tends to do (D7). And if it's taken at Presto, it's like suicide. 

Rimsky-Korsakov kills flutes too, like the solo with extreme double tonguing in the Russian Easter Overture.


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## davidjb100

Well, I'm sure the list is never-ending. Unfortunately, deciding on a most-difficult orchestral piece is more complicated than narrowing it down to one or two. For instance, you might say difficult to listen to, difficult for the time it was written, difficult simply from a performance perspective, etc.

From my experience, the most difficult works in the standard repertoire would be Bartok's _Concerto for Orchestra_, Strauss' _Don Juan_, and Stravinsky's _The Rite of Spring_. The problem here is selective difficulty. All three of these are tremendously difficult for the winds and brass, but I'm sure there's an even harder work for strings, percussion, etc. It's all a matter of opinion.


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## TWhite

I have a very dear friend and colleague that is an excellent 'cellist, and according to him, it's the Brahms Second Symphony. Evidently the 'cello part in that marvelous work is EXTREMELY demanding of the instrument.

From my own listening standpoint, I'd really hate to be the tympanist performing the Ginastera "Estancia" suite. It sounds like the musical equivalent of an Olympic Decathalon.

Tom


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## myaskovsky2002

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Stravinsky's _The Rite of Spring_? Yawn. Marginally better than Schoenberg's junk.


Schönberg junk? How dare you???????

Martin


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## myaskovsky2002

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Sorry, I should not have used the word "junk". I withdraw that usage. Instead, I shall describe Schoenberg's music as _entartete Kunst_. (Look that up if you don't know what it means, and I'm sure your Avatar, Mr Wagner would completely approve, too).
> 
> Have a good day.


I know pretty well what Entarte means...Hitler's fans made up this term for Degenerate music...They used this term for many composers, among them: Zemlinsky, Schreker, Kurt Weil, Schönberg, Berg, Weber, Wellesz, Korngold and many others...All of them talented but Jewish

Martin, also Jewish


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## starthrower

entartete kunst? Gotta love these philistines!


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## Nix

Strauss' Till Eulenspiegels is notoriously difficult for all the players. Seconded on the Mozart as well. And Bach is supposed to awful for vocalists. I think the 'newer is harder' is nonsense. It takes longer time to put together those pieces because the players have less experience with them, but it doesn't actually mean it's more difficult. Musicians play Mozart all their life and still struggle with it- that says something.


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## GraemeG

Earlier this year, I was susprised to find how much harder Dvorak 7 is to play than Mahler 1.
Dvorak is hell on the strings in this piece, and not much easier on the woodwind either.
GG


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## clavichorder

Rachmaninoff's Symphonic Dances is said to be extremely difficult.


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## Klavierspieler

There's a point in Strauss' Ein Alpinsinfonie where the contrabassoon is supposed to hold a note for something like fourteen measures.


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## Sid James

I thank member (& moderator) Rojo for posting the Lachenmann work. I just listened to it (in full) & I really enjoyed it. I like how it built up slowly, bit by bit, to a crescendo of sound. It also had much delicacy and interesting textures. As for the people who say this is rubbish or whatever, c'mon guys, get with it! This was composed in 1982 for pete's sake! I've been to concerts of contemporary music & similar techniques are used today, and then some. I hope I'm not being condescending here, but there are other ways to use an orchestra than the ways everyone seems to know, eg. before 1945. Music has moved on from 1945 & beyond. It's one thing to say you don't like it, another thing to say this is rubbish or that people who enjoy this music are "snobs" (another catch-all cliche word, which I think IS rubbish, which basically means "people I don't like").

Ok, enough for the rant. As for other works that are considered difficult to play, esp. to bring off well live, two I know are *Schubert's* _Symphony #4 "Tragic"_ (there are some tricky cross-rhythms in the final movement), and also *Bizet's* _Symphony in C_ (probably also in terms of rhythm, but the lead oboe solo in the second (slow) movement is a killer, basically he asks the oboeist to play as if s/he is singing, it's like opera for oboe). At the performance I went to to hear the latter, the conductor actually went to the back of the orchestra to shake the lead oboist's hand, and it was the first time I'd seen such a thing happen during an applause.

These two works are nothing if not "accessible," but seldom played live as they're quite difficult to do well in that context. However, they do seem to be getting more of an airing in concert halls in recent years, at least here in Australia...


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## TTTTT

The most difficult thing to play has to be the Daphnis et Chloe (ballet or suites) by Ravel. 

Reasons:

-Extremely high or low registers for everybody
-Tempo's until 200, with 16 or 32 with large intervals in between the notes
-Very difficult keys with lots of sharps, flats and naturals
-Has to sound very easy en extremely correctly, because you can here every inregularity 
-Large interval jumps
-A lot of articulation en dynamic changes
-Changing measures

I'm a professional musician in a radio orchestra, i this is my opinion


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## teccomin

TTTTT said:


> The most difficult thing to play has to be the Daphnis et Chloe (ballet or suites) by Ravel.
> 
> Reasons:
> 
> -Extremely high or low registers for everybody
> -Tempo's until 200, with 16 or 32 with large intervals in between the notes
> -Very difficult keys with lots of sharps, flats and naturals
> -Has to sound very easy en extremely correctly, because you can here every inregularity
> -Large interval jumps
> -A lot of articulation en dynamic changes
> -Changing measures
> 
> I'm a professional musician in a radio orchestra, i this is my opinion


Ravel is like Mozart on steroids. Just as transparent, but with 100x more notes to learn


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## woodwind_fan

Huilunsoittaja said:


> I think Prokofiev's Classical Symphony tortures flutes (Russians tend to do that). In the finale, most instruments aren't really stressed that much, which makes it odd that the flutes have such unusually technical passages in contrast. Often reaches to our highest limits, which Prokofiev also tends to do (D7). And if it's taken at Presto, it's like suicide.


I agree - Prokofiev 1 is HARD, especially if done up to tempo. Take a classical symphony, and play it in half the time...


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## DeepR

Scriabin's Prometheus seems difficult to perform. I've heard some very mediocre and messy performances on youtube. A lot of detail can easily get lost.

I've heard it live by the London Philharmonic Orchestra. In parts it was performed too slow for my tastes, but it seems like the conductor chose that tempo because only then they could carefully bring out all the details.


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## superhorn

Schumann's Konzertstuck for four horns and orchestra is hellishly difficult for the first horn.
The composer has the player go up a major third above what is normally considered the horn's highest note, and most horn players can't go this high. The part is so fiendishly diffiuclt that as a former horn player, the 
mere thought of the piece gives me the willies .
You constantly have to stay way up in the horn's highest register.


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## Vortex

rojo said:


> .So here's the question. What are some of the hardest works for an orchestra to play?


Pierre Boulez' _Notations for Orchestra_? I saw the score in a library some time ago - quite impressive: about 80 independent parts. Synchronisations of the performers in a rhythmic work like Notations II must be a challenge!
See the video under the link below: http://professorbadtrip.wordpress.com/2012/04/08/pierre-boulez-3/


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## mitchflorida

Flight of the Bumble Bee


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## Vaneyes

Trumpet opening Mahler 5.


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## chalkpie

Ives 4
Varese - Ameriques
Any Zappa (orchestral or if you think about it, his rock stuff is more difficult than most classical music)
Ligeti (to do it right)
Any number of Webern/.Schoenberg works
and a million more


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## Frasier

myaskovsky2002 said:


> I know pretty well what Entarte means...Hitler's fans made up this term for Degenerate music...They used this term for many composers, among them: Zemlinsky, Schreker, Kurt Weil, Schönberg, Berg, Weber, Wellesz, Korngold and many others...All of them talented but Jewish
> 
> Martin, also Jewish


I think you'll find that Berg was not Jewish. His rejection in Berlin came as a surprise and ended his run with Wozzeck, leaving him somewhat impecunious.


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## kv466

I don't know about _difficult_ but Beethoven tends to give his orchestra a nice work out.


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## Frasier

TTTTT said:


> The most difficult thing to play has to be the Daphnis et Chloe (ballet or suites) by Ravel.
> 
> Reasons:
> 
> -Extremely high or low registers for everybody
> -Tempo's until 200, with 16 or 32 with large intervals in between the notes
> -Very difficult keys with lots of sharps, flats and naturals
> -Has to sound very easy en extremely correctly, because you can here every inregularity
> -Large interval jumps
> -A lot of articulation en dynamic changes
> -Changing measures
> 
> I'm a professional musician in a radio orchestra, i this is my opinion


You could set much Villa-Lobos in the same bracket, particularly the 8th 9th and 10th Choros. Inordinately difficult to play/sing: extremes of register; rhythmic complexities; textural balance, dynamics.
A good example in a single instrument (though not orchestral) is the flute in the Quinette: requires a B foot and reaches
top D in the concluding bar.


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## Jaws

Mozart. Have you heard the phrase about Mozart's music. "Too basic for amateurs, too difficult for professionals?" The notes are easy, but how you play them is the difficult bit.


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## peeyaj

The strings section on the 4th movement of Schubert's Great C major is particularly difficult because of its unfounding rhytmic drive and triplets that seems to go on forever.

In fact, it was refused by various orchestras when it was discovered by Schumann due to it's length and difficulty. Mendelssohn's premiered the piece with heavy cuts because performers refuse to play it. The violinists reportedly laughed at the seventy ''e's'' in that movement.

It's a very great work.
A towering and majestic symphony.


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## Jaws

I often find that the simpler the notes look in a piece of music the more difficult it is to perform.


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## poconoron

peeyaj said:


> Schubert's Great C major
> 
> It's a very great work.
> A towering and majestic symphony.


Agree 100%


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## Arsakes

Am I the only one who finds many of 20th century stuff annoying and ugly, I mean those like Stravinsky works

about this topic, I guess Dvorak's 7th Symphony must be hard to perform. cant think of many difficult works ..


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## Jeremy Marchant

Jaws said:


> Mozart. Have you heard the phrase about Mozart's music. "Too basic for amateurs, too difficult for professionals?" The notes are easy, but how you play them is the difficult bit.


It's not to do with whether the music is 'basic' or not. The original quotation was by Athur Schnabel, who said "The sonatas of Mozart are unique: too easy for children, too difficult for adults. Children are given Mozart to play because of the quantity of notes; grown ups avoid him because of the quality of notes ... Mozart is the most inaccessible of the great masters."


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## Jeremy Marchant

Arsakes said:


> Am I the only one who finds many of 20th century stuff annoying and ugly, I mean those like Stravinsky works.


It's worse than that. I mean, that Gesualdo is just gross.


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## NightXsenator

I guess, Strauss' Alpine Symphony and Mahler's 6 and 8 are one of the most difficult because of orchestra scale. However, those works are one of the most impressive in classical music repertoire. Real demonstration of orchestra power.


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## DaDirkNL

Mozart's Symphony 41, especially the last movement.


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## isridgewell

Stravinsky - Rite of Spring is fairly testing as is the Miraculous Mandarin by Bartok.

Walton can be tricky rhythmically especially the brass writing in the violin concerto.

Contemporary composers such as Birtwistle and Boulez can be a nightmare especially figuring out rhythmic elements!


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## randomnese

Brahms.

He was not particularly familiar with many orchestral instruments in terms of their playability, yet drew unique and distinctive sounds out of them. There are many times when the orchestral writing is awkward on the page but sounds beautiful. He was definitely not considerate of string crossings and woodwind intonation problems. That's why Brahms 4th is on every violin audition excerpt...


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## mtmailey

SCHUBERT music is often hard to play as i read it online,also music that is required to play to fast is a problem also.


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## senza sordino

I'm not being serious here as the most difficult, but I will mention that in an orchestra what can be difficult is for some performers who have to sit around for dozens, or sometimes hundreds of bars, just counting and not playing, and then come in at precisely the right moment, no warm up, no lead in and nail that note.


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## techniquest

> I'm not being serious here as the most difficult, but I will mention that in an orchestra what can be difficult is for some performers who have to sit around for dozens, or sometimes hundreds of bars, just counting and not playing, and then come in at precisely the right moment, no warm up, no lead in and nail that note.


Like the bells in Shostakovich's 11th symphony for example. I once attended a performance with the Bournemouth SO where the bell-man sat with his carillon throughout the whole work in readiness for his little bit at the very end


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## dgee

Or perhaps the single symbol crash (where required by the edition or conductor) in Bruckner 7 - climax of the Adagio. Cymbals are unforgiving at the best of times let alone when they and the player have been sitting for 40 or so minutes. Also, obviously, "you had ONE thing to do..."

I've heard plenty of stories of it being completely missed too - unconfirmed but highly likely

Of all the things I've played it's probably the predictable ones in the standard rep that have been difficult: Rosenkavalier, Alpine Symphony, Mahlers 3, 5 and 7, Schoenberg 5 Pieces, Petroushka, Rite (although it's so well known, well practiced and grooves along it's not even close to being the nightmare everyone thinks it is), Pictures at an Exhibition and Daphnis stand out

But there are other sorts of "hard to play" too - for instance, Schumann 3 and the Franck Symphony are both a $%^^&* because of the unsympathetic orchestration and voicing. More recent scores have much greater technical difficulty - Bryan Ferneyhough has written for orchestra, of course ;-)


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## PetrB

Arsakes said:


> Am I the only one who finds many of 20th century stuff annoying and ugly, I mean those like Stravinsky works.


No you are not, but your numbers are decreasing as many more realize the 20th century produced a whole other century's worth of great classical music.

Some people are near rabid sentimentalists, and like only the old stuff up to mid or near late romantic, and for some peculiar reason think composers should have just kept writing like that, i.e. as if for the first time in music history music would come to a standstill


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## hpowders

Without 20th century music, I might as well simply pack up and leave. Prokofiev. Copland. Bernstein. Ives. Schuman. Persichetti. Can't live without them.


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## Couac Addict

Mahler is difficult for the conductor due to size of the orchestra but if you're talking about playing diffuculty, we may need to consider works that are less familiar. Rite of Spring and Petrushka were beasts back in the day but they're staples today. Any student at conservatoire know these backwards. Keeping the tempo and balance of the chords is difficult with Messiaen's music.


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## Celloman

Mozart is easy enough to play, but extremely difficult to master. If you've ever played a Mozart symphony with an orchestra, you know what I'm talking about. His music demands a degree of precision that few musicians are capable of achieving.


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## Orfeo

Glazunov's "The Seasons" is demanding, as are a number of his large-scaled works due to their density (the two piano sonatas, in some ways his symphonies, quartets). Glazunov is known for his doublings and what not. Tchaikovsky's "Manfred" is likewise very taxing. 

Both Nielsen and Tubin are to me very craggy and physical, and playing them with less than stellar concentration and emotion would ruin the performances of their music. For instance, orchestras new to Nielsen by the mid-1960s had hard times getting beneath the surface of his music (like in his Fourth Symphony), let alone being able to really meet the technical challenges his music poses. My goodness how much orchestras evolved since then.


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## Morimur

Richard Barrett: Dark Matter


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## cjvinthechair

Sitting next to a percussionist who's trying to show me the complications of his part in Turangalila - suspect if this doesn't qualify as one of the hardest then my young colleague might disagree with you....looks terrifying to me !


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## science

PetrB said:


> No you are not, but your numbers are decreasing as many more realize the 20th century produced a whole other century's worth of great classical music.


There's a darker side to this "decreasing numbers" phenomenon, and the euphemistic way of putting it is that younger people seem more attracted to modern-ish music than their grandparents tend_ed_ to be.


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## Il_Penseroso

Richard Strauss: Don Quixote


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## Vaneyes

Opening to LvB PC4. Uchida example.


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## Bruce

Persichetti? What works of his would you recommend. I've tried many times to get a mental grip on his music, but have continually failed. Persichetti's works I've heard most often are his 8th piano sonata, and two concerti--for piano and english horn.


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## Vaneyes

Bruce said:


> Persichetti? What works of his would you recommend. I've tried many times to get a mental grip on his music, but have continually failed. Persichetti's works I've heard most often are his 8th piano sonata, and two concerti--for piano and english horn.


Off topic, this...


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## changeup

I do not know much about instrument playing, but watched a performance of Ravel's Concerto for Left Hand Piano once and felt it must be really hard for the piano soloist to perform this piece.


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## BRHiler

Adolph (Bud) Herseth (former principal trumpet of Chicago Symphony) once said that playing a Mozart symphony is the hardest thing he's ever played.


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## BRHiler

Bruce said:


> Persichetti? What works of his would you recommend. I've tried many times to get a mental grip on his music, but have continually failed. Persichetti's works I've heard most often are his 8th piano sonata, and two concerti--for piano and english horn.


Off Topic as well.....

What's your music background? Orchestral, Band, chamber??

He wrote several fantastic pieces for wind band. My 2 favorites are Masquerade and Symphony #6.
The only chamber pieces I know of his are The Hollow Men for Trumpet and Strings and Serenade Op.1.
Orchestral: All of his other symphonies


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## Ian Moore

The most difficult orchestral works to perform often seem to be modern ones. I have not searched the forum completely but I don't think anyone has mentioned Ferneyhough's Plotzlichkeit:








This is really demanding(technically,physically and mentally).

Ian Moore


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## Forte

Most difficult?






This is the most complex I've seen Ferneyhough go yet.

Here is the score if anyone wants to see it. I imagine it pushes the limits of what is possible to conduct.


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## Ian Moore

Pretty amazing. Doubt that it will get played much in his life time. Imagine the rehearsal time!


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## MrRodokanakis

Huge said:


> Is Stravinsky's RoS (Rite of Spring) not considered that hard anymore?


I would also have to say that all three of Stravinsky's iconic works (the Firebird, Petrushka and of course The Rite of Spring) Should surely still be considered significantly challenging - the constant and sudden changes of rhythm and meter require immense concentration. Not to mention an array of technically difficult material for almost every section of the orchestra. his repertoire is one that many orchestras avoid not only because of difficulty but because of unfortunate public distaste. Such a shame really.


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## Heck148

rojo said:


> What are some of the hardest works for an orchestra to play?


Mozart, Beethoven, Strauss, Mahler, etc...
you will find the audition lists for orchestra admission to be filled with standard works from the main symphonic repertoire. These excerpts are required because they are , difficult, indicative of the musician's ability, and show whether that applicant's style of playing will fit in well with the existing ensemble.


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## Medtnaculus

I know that Florent Schmitt's symphonie concertante is devilishly tricky both for the pianist and the orchestra. I doubt it's the hardest though.


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## Pugg

Medtnaculus said:


> I know that Florent Schmitt's symphonie concertante is devilishly tricky both for the pianist and the orchestra. I doubt it's the hardest though.


Then again this such works disappearing in obscurity.


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