# Second Round: Ihr habt nun Traurigkeit. Grummer and Norman



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I think I have some special offerings for you with these two. They are both really superlative but it depends on whether you prefer a grand/noble voice or an ethereal/ soaring voice for this piece. In the middle of this piece Jessye Norman sings one of the most truly massive soprano high notes I've ever heard. Jaw dropping! I have loved Jessye's version for decades but Grummer's version, which I just discovered for this contest, also blew me away!!! 
I just LOVE Brahms!!!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Elisabeth Grümmer was one of those rare artists whose art conceals art and transcends the mechanics of its production. When we hear her we are confronted not with a performer but with a human being, disarmed and disarming, expressing herself as nature intended, and seeming to live by Galli-Curci's motto, "Sincerity, Simplicity, Serenity." She has the gratifying ability to make the sounds of language sung as precise as, and more beautiful than, the sounds of language spoken, and with never a hint of false emphasis or exaggeration (Tito Schipa and Lotte Lehmann had this ability too).I can hardly imagine a greater comfort in the midst of life's sorrows than what she offers us here.

I should also put in a good word for Rudolf Kempe, another musician who had the gift of naturalness. His tempo is on the slow side, but he and Grümmer shape the piece so beautifully that they easily dispel any misgivings we might have. This conductor and this singer are by themselves sufficient (but not the only) reasons to hear EMI's 1956 _Meistersinger,_ in which Grümmer's leading of the quintet is second only to the miracle achieved by Elisabeth Schumann some thirty-five years earlier.

Jessye Norman's voice is a little heavy for this music, but she does her very considerable best and turns in a lovely performance. She doesn't make me forget that she's trying.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I agree with all that Woodduck has said. Grümmer seems to me ideal, providing heavenly comfort where Norman is more earthly. I can't really add anything else.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I love both of these artists, but especially in this piece, Grümmer is perfection.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

It is interesting to me that Brahms, who was not a religious man, could write music that could really speak to so many people deep inside. This music is so heavenly I'm so glad so many of you are enjoying this music! I am doubly glad I stumbled on Grummer who is so perfect for this piece. I think someone might have mentioned her. I do pay attention to what you all say.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> It is interesting to me that Brahms, who was not a religious man, could write music that could really speak to so many people deep inside. This music is so heavenly I'm so glad so many of you are enjoying this music! I am doubly glad I stumbled on Grummer who is so perfect for this piece. I think someone might have mentioned her. I do pay attention to what you all say.


Grümmer appears in both of my favorite recordings of *Lohengrin*, as the ideal Elsa, otherwise I have none of her recordings.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

*Link to label authorized complete recording -*



https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_npIkwzFM0Wy1qtWMLypobjYT1LUd4Ee3o



CRITIC REVIEWS:

“In comparison with her contemporaries, Grümmer was a greatly under-recorded soprano. Since she possessed an attractive, cream-toned voice, a splendid florid technique, and a smooth legato delivery allied to a pleasing stage presence, it is curious that she was so neglected by the major record companies.”
- Vivian A. Liff, AMERICAN RECORD GUIDE, May / June, 2011


"Elisabeth Grümmer was one of a wonderful constellation of German lyric sopranos who dominated the Central European opera houses and concert halls in the 1950s and '60s."
- Kurt Moses, AMERICAN RECORD GUIDE, March/April, 2010


"Elisabeth Grümmer was one of the best German lyric sopranos of the 1950's and 60s….the listener will be struck by [her voice’s] beauty, its evenness and smoothness over its entire range. Grümmer was a stylish singer who colored her voice well and gave convincing portrayals of her operatic heroines."
- Kurt Moses, AMERICAN RECORD GUIDE, Jan./Feb., 2005


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I think I have some special offerings for you with these two. They are both really superlative but it depends on whether you prefer a grand/noble voice or an ethereal/ soaring voice for this piece. In the middle of this piece Jessye Norman sings one of the most truly massive soprano high notes I've ever heard. Jaw dropping! I have loved Jessye's version for decades but Grummer's version, which I just discovered for this contest, also blew me away!!!
> I just LOVE Brahms!!!


Grummer. Grummer. Grummer. Just perfect. I knew someone who studied with her in Berlin, and he told me not only was she a wonderful teacher but a genuinely nice person.


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> It is interesting to me that Brahms, who was not a religious man, could write music that could really speak to so many people deep inside. This music is so heavenly I'm so glad so many of you are enjoying this music! I am doubly glad I stumbled on Grummer who is so perfect for this piece. I think someone might have mentioned her. I do pay attention to what you all say.


I had mentioned Grummer. I also used many of the Biblical passages Brahms used when I planned the memorial service for my late partner. The emphasis in the Requiem on comforting the living and how death is a part of life links also to Jewish views about mourning and death as my late partner was Jewish. I was brought up Catholic.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Francasacchi said:


> I had mentioned Grummer. I also used many of the Biblical passages Brahms used when I planned the memorial service for my late partner. The emphasis in the Requiem on comforting the living and how death us a part of life links also to Jewish views about mourning and death as my late partner was Jewish. I was brought up Catholic.


I think it was you that mentioned her and I took note.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

MAS said:


> Grümmer appears in both of my favorite recordings of *Lohengrin*, as the ideal Elsa, otherwise I have none of her recordings.


I have her Elsa on the Kempe *Lohengrin *too. She is also a wonderful Agathe in Keilberth's *Der Freischütz *(one of the reasons I prefer this set to the famous Kleiber), a superb Donna Anna with Furtwängler in Salzburg and a perfect Hänsel in Karajan's recording of *Hänsel und Gretel *with Schwarzkopf as Gretel.


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I have her Elsa on the Kempe *Lohengrin *too. She is also a wonderful Agathe in Keilberth's *Der Freischütz *(one of the reasons I prefer this set to the famous Kleiber), a superb Donna Anna with Furtwängler in Salzburg and a perfect Hänsel in Karajan's recording of *Hänsel und Gretel *with Schwarzkopf as Gretel.


I have her Elsa under Kempe and von Matacic and her Elisabeth under Konwitschny. I also have a ten CD set that features her work in oratorio and lieder and lots of Mozart including an exciting Elettra in Idomeneo.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I have her Elsa on the Kempe *Lohengrin *too. She is also a wonderful Agathe in Keilberth's *Der Freischütz *(one of the reasons I prefer this set to the famous Kleiber), a superb Donna Anna with Furtwängler in Salzburg and a perfect Hänsel in Karajan's recording of *Hänsel und Gretel *with Schwarzkopf as Gretel.


The pairing of Grümmer and Schwarzkopf in H & G is a historic stroke of good fortune. I think of them as poles on the spectrum of artistic temperaments, yet both have clear, strong lyric soprano voices that blend beautifully. They can both virtually "own" roles; Grümmer is so identified with Agathe for me that I almost don't want to listen to anyone else sing it. Generally it's only Callas that screws around with my head that way!


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

And Grummer artlessly through phrasing and timbre convinces one that she is a boy. Her more vibrant timbre with a hint of graininess she applies both blends with and contrasts with Schwarzkopf.


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Francasacchi said:


> And Grummer artlessly through phrasing and timbre convinces one that she is a boy. Her more vibrant timbre with a hint of graininess she applies both blends with and contrasts with Schwarzkopf.


Grummer also sang Octavian. Much more than the Marschallin which she only took on late in her career.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Francasacchi said:


> Grummer also sang Octavian. Much more than the Marschallin which she only took on late in her career.


I wouldn't have guessed that. I think of Octavian as a mezzo role.


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Woodduck said:


> I wouldn't have guessed that. I think of Octavian as a mezzo role.


Many sopranos have sung it especially before the 1960s in Germany and Austria. Lotte Lehmann. Sena Jurinac. Tiana Lemnitz. Irmgard Seefried.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Francasacchi said:


> Many sopranos have sung it especially before the 1960s in Germany and Austria. Lotte Lehmann. Sena Jurinac. Tiana Lemnitz. Irmgard Seefried.


Evidently Strauss was fine with any voice that could sing it. Does the score call for one voice or another specifically?


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Woodduck said:


> Evidently Strauss was fine with any voice that could sing it. Does the score call for one voice or another specifically?


I am not sure. I have seen scores that say mezzosopran. The first Octavian Eva von der Osten was a soprano.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Francasacchi said:


> Many sopranos have sung it especially before the 1960s in Germany and Austria. Lotte Lehmann. Sena Jurinac. Tiana Lemnitz. Irmgard Seefried.


Lisa Della Casa, Elisabeth Söderström, Jarmila Novotna. I think it calls for a decent lower voice.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Seattleoperafan said:


> It is interesting to me that Brahms, who was not a religious man, could write music that could really speak to so many people deep inside.


Brahms was not personally devout but he was culturally "dyed in the wool" Lutheran in a way very few people today are, regardless of personal devotion. He selected and combined the complete texts for the German Requiem himself, AFAIK, and it's at least as convincing a combination as any 17th-18th century motet or cantata with texts from some learned Lutheran or Anglican clergyman. (It was criticized because it lacks reference to Christ but this was probably on purpose and shows the lack of confessional religiousness.)



> This music is so heavenly I'm so glad so many of you are enjoying this music! I am doubly glad I stumbled on Grummer who is so perfect for this piece. I think someone might have mentioned her. I do pay attention to what you all say.


Grümmer is about the best there is for this piece. The Kempe recording is overall one of the best of the whole German Requiem with the obvious flaw being in (good) mono sound and the rather slow tempi also not to everyone's taste.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I don't understand why I haven't heard the Grummer before!

As others have pointed out, it's heavenly perfection!

Norman doesn't have a chance, I'm afraid (despite her singing having a wonderful lustre to it in this recording).

N.


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

Of the two, Grümmer (the recording used is faulty towards the end) it is, of course. In addition to these two we also heard the usual Janowitz and, ahem, Schwarzkopf. But there are others of significance. Here, for example, is Cheryl Studer’s gorgeous rendition, like a ray of sunlight through clouds. If there is another round on the piece, it ought to be included.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ALT said:


> Of the two, Grümmer (the recording used is faulty towards the end) it is, of course. In addition to these two we also heard the usual Janowitz and, ahem, Schwarzkopf. But there are others of significance. Here, for example, is Cheryl Studer’s gorgeous rendition, like a ray of sunlight through clouds. If there is another round on the piece, it ought to be included.


Very nicely sung by the reliable Ms. Studer, but for their more distinctive vocal timbres I prefer "the usual Janowitz," "ahem Schwarzkopf," and especially "of the two Grummer."


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> Very nicely sung by the reliable Ms. Studer, but for their more distinctive vocal timbres I prefer "the usual Janowitz," "ahem Schwarzkopf," and especially "of the two Grummer."


Interesting because it is precisely Studer’s own distinctive vocal timbre and delivery that I clearly hear. Grümmer and Schwarzkopf do too and I can easily discern them when I hear them. Janowitz much less so as hers is a more instrumental approach to singing (like Te Kanawa) thus more difficult to separate from more distinctive timbres.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ALT said:


> Interesting because it is precisely Studer’s own distinctive vocal timbre and delivery that I clearly hear. Grümmer and Schwarzkopf do too and I can easily discern them when I hear them. Janowitz much less so as hers is a more instrumental approach to singing (like Te Kanawa) thus more difficult to separate from more distinctive timbres.


I would know Janowitz after just a few notes. My only problem with her is that the sound, with its extremely narrow vibrato, is intrinsically cool and impersonal - rather like a theremin or a musical saw - and doesn't admit of much expressive variation.


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> I would know Janowitz after just a few notes. My only problem with her is that the sound, with its extremely narrow vibrato, is intrinsically cool and impersonal - rather like a theremin or a musical saw - and doesn't admit of much expressive variation.


Unlike you, I cannot recognize her so easily. But in agreement about her impersonality although I don’t quite hear the saw aspect. More often than not all I hear is silky vocalises. Te Kanawa is another offender in this aspect. It is why I avoid both as much as possible, being well aware of the worth of Janowitz’s VLL and of KTK’s Figaro Countess. And even then I usually go to others.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ALT said:


> Unlike you, I cannot recognize her so easily. But in agreement about her impersonality although I don’t quite hear the saw aspect. More often than not all I hear is silky vocalises. Te Kanawa is another offender in this aspect. It is why I avoid both as much as possible, being well aware of the worth of Janowitz’s VLL and of KTK’s Figaro Countess. And even then I usually go to others.


I like to say (only half joking) that Janowitz's best role was the first flower maiden. I first heard her in the Knappertsbusch 1962 _Parsifa_l, where she is sheer perfection. Kiri can be boring, but that voice is peaches and cream. I can imagine her in the Brahms.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I like to say (only half joking) that Janowitz's best role was the first flower maiden. I first heard her in the Knappertsbusch 1962 _Parsifa_l, where she is sheer perfection. Kiri can be boring, but that voice is peaches and cream. I can imagine her in the Brahms.


Kiri has the voice and temperament for Mozart best I think. Her technical perfection would shine in that demanding repertoire.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

ALT said:


> Unlike you, I cannot recognize her so easily. But in agreement about her impersonality although I don’t quite hear the saw aspect. More often than not all I hear is silky vocalises. Te Kanawa is another offender in this aspect. It is why I avoid both as much as possible, being well aware of the worth of Janowitz’s VLL and of KTK’s Figaro Countess. And even then I usually go to others.


I find all these voices recognisible and like Grummer, Schwarzkopf, Janowitz and Studer in the Brahms. Grummer is possible my favourite. One thing where Studer scores over Schwarzkopf for me is that her voice soars in a way that Schwarzkopf's doesn't in that piece. (With Schwarzkopf you get a greater attention to the pronunciation of the words, though. You pays your money...) In other music I might prefer Schwarzkopf precisely because of her articulation of the text, but here I prioritise the overall beauty of the singing over the words.

N.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

The voice in Requiem is a voice of an angel. It's not a maiden or youth (or androgynous one if it hasn't a name) with wings, but a messenger, a kind of force or energy stream. Classical music inherited anthropomorphic angels from painting, but in more abstract sense they could be imagined differently.
In previous round my choice was for more superhuman or out-of-body voice of Gundula Janowitz. Now, though I can't say I'm fond of Brahms very much, I couldn't just listen and switch off. Grummer is as close to perfection as it's possible. I knew her name, but to the date I didn't connect it with any voice, and had a rare feeling of meeting a genius. But there are ethereal divinities and there are chtonic ones and this is Jessie Norman. This is the voice God should sing with.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ColdGenius said:


> The voice in Requiem is a voice of an angel. It's not a maiden or youth (or androgynous one if it hasn't a name) with wings, but a messenger, a kind of force or energy stream. Classical music inherited anthropomorphic angels from painting, but in more abstract sense they could be imagined differently.
> In previous round my choice was for more superhuman or out-of-body voice of Gundula Janowitz. Now, though I can't say I'm fond of Brahms very much, I couldn't just listen and switch off. Grummer is as close to perfection as it's possible. I knew her name, but to the date I didn't connect it with any voice, and had a rare feeling of meeting a genius. But there are ethereal divinities and there are chtonic ones and this is Jessie Norman. This is the voice God should sing with.


God thanks you for admiring Her voice, but who do you think sings this best?


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Woodduck said:


> God thanks you for admiring Her voice, but who do you think sings this best?


Norman


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ColdGenius said:


> Norman


God will reward you.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

ColdGenius said:


> Norman


Someone agrees with me!!! I am mad for Grummer in this as well and I've put Grummer in some future contests. Glad someone brought her to my attention recently for this contest.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Woodduck said:


> God will reward you.


When?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ColdGenius said:


> When?


Only She knows that.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

It's not really the voice of an angel. The passage is a mix between a saying of Jesus (in the gospel of John, 16:22) and a passage from the Old testament prophet Isaiah (66:13) where God's comfort is compared to a mother caring for her children. 
Therefore I think a "motherly voice" is appropriate. Not a matron but not a disembodied angel (or an ice cold severe governess like Schwarzkopf )


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Kreisler jr said:


> It's not really the voice of an angel. The passage is a mix between a saying of Jesus (in the gospel of John, 16:22) and a passage from the Old testament prophet Isaiah (66:13) where God's comfort is compared to a mother caring for her children.
> Therefore I think a "motherly voice" is appropriate. Not a matron but not a disembodied angel (or an ice cold severe governess like Schwarzkopf )


Calling Schwarzkopf's performance, either with Karajan or Klemperer, "ice cold and severe" competely mystifies me. Honestly I sometimes think people make judgements about Schwarzkopf without actually listening to her.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Klemperer's recording is my "go to" version of the piece and I have had a recording for about 25 years or more (I had one before, Kegel who has a great choir but the soprano is not so good) but I never liked Schwarzkopf's solo. In fact I didn't really like any soprano solo before I heard Grümmer but I admit that I have only heard about 5 or so recordings of the piece and while I put undue weight on the soprano solo (because it is often a liability), it's only one short movement of 7 and overall other things are more important, therefore Klemperer's recording is still a huge favorite.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Calling Schwarzkopf's performance, either with Karajan or Klemperer, "ice cold and severe" competely mystifies me. Honestly I sometimes think people make judgements about Schwarzkopf without actually listening to her.


I'm as much a Schwarzkopf fan as you are, but I get the 'ice cold' description for this excerpt of hers. Her articulation of the words etches into the musical line here and that's why I prefer Grummer and Studer who sing the excerpt with more legato.

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> I'm as much a Schwarzkopf fan as you are, but I get the 'ice cold' description for this excerpt of hers. Her articulation of the words etches into the musical line here and that's why I prefer Grummer and Studer who sing the excerpt with more legato.
> 
> N.


OK, since were opining in a controversy, I'll chime in too. I don't detect any ice. Schwarzkopf's rendering feels to me very warm and comforting. I slightly prefer Grummer, who is both angelically ethereal and warmly human (Janowitz is mainly the former). Studer is as Studer usually is in great company: she has everything except the timbral distinctiveness of the others (which, in case the Studer police are watching, is a high compliment).


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> OK, since were opining in a controversy, I'll chime in too. I don't detect any ice. Schwarzkopf's rendering feels to me very warm and comforting. I slightly prefer Grummer, who is both angelically ethereal and warmly human (Janowitz is mainly the former). Studer is as Studer usually is in great company: she has everything except the timbral distinctiveness of the others (which, in case the Studer police are watching, is a high compliment).


I think I slightly prefer Grümmer too, but it's a close run thing.


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> OK, since were opining in a controversy, I'll chime in too. I don't detect any ice. Schwarzkopf's rendering feels to me very warm and comforting. I slightly prefer Grummer, who is both angelically ethereal and warmly human (Janowitz is mainly the former). Studer is as Studer usually is in great company: she has everything except the timbral distinctiveness of the others (which, in case the Studer police are watching, is a high compliment).


I have written this before and will again. To these ears, Studer has one of the most distinctive timbres of any soprano I have ever heard, in both sound and delivery. A very unique artist, as if it needed to be stated. Woodduck, you keep insisting on the canard but be reminded that it’s not gospel.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ALT said:


> I have written this before and will again. To these ears, Studer has one of the most distinctive timbres of any soprano I have ever heard, in both sound and delivery. A very unique artist, as if it needed to be stated. Woodduck, you keep insisting on the canard but be reminded that it’s not gospel.


Tsk tsk! Haven't you noticed that people react to vocal timbres differently? Is that something that disturbs your sleep? Studer's timbre sounds highly distinctive _to you_. It doesn't _to me_. TO ME, Grummer, Janowitz and Schwarzkopf sound more distinctive. So what? May I not say so without being chastised and accused of spreading "canards"? Do you know the definition of "canard"? Be grateful I'm not making up nonsense about your darling having a voice too small for the career she triumphantly had and needing torture to sing into a microphone.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Tsk tsk! Haven't you noticed that people react to vocal timbres differently? Is that something that disturbs your sleep? Studer's timbre sounds highly distinctive _to you_. It doesn't _to me_. TO ME, Grummer, Janowitz and Schwarzkopf sound more distinctive. So what? May I not say so without being chastised abd accused of spreading "canards"? Do you know the definition of "canard"? Be grateful I'm not making up nonsense about your darling having a voice too small for the career she triumphantly had and needing torture to sing into a microphone.


At the risk of introducing even more controversy (if that were possible), in general I find Studer's voice very distinctive AND to me Grummer, Janowitz and Schwarzkopf sound more distinctive. Studer is at her most distinctive in heavier rep where the darker colours come to the fore and so she isn't at her most distinctive in terms of vocal tone in this excerpt.

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> At the risk of introducing even more controversy (if that were possible), in general I find Studer's voice very distinctive AND to me Grummer, Janowitz and Schwarzkopf sound more distinctive. Studer is at her most distinctive in heavier rep where the darker colours come to the fore and so she isn't at her most distinctive in terms of vocal tone in this excerpt.
> 
> N.


I don't know whether I agree or not, but it's not an issue and I wouldn't _dream_ of arguing about it.


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## damianjb1 (Jan 1, 2016)

I've always loved this version:


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