# Mahler Kubelik



## Oliver

Is Rafael Kubelík generally recommended for Mahler's symphonies? I'm going to spend this year getting to know all of his symphonies and I want to make sure I start with a good recording.


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## Vaneyes

Kubelik's DG studio set is frequently recommended for good lyrical interpretations (along with Bertini, EMI). Mahler Symphony 1 is this set's highlight for many.

Less-known, are his later Audite live recs...

http://www.audite.de/en/serie/1-mah...elik_in_live_recordings_9_10_productions.html


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## Blancrocher

Just thought I'd mention Tony Duggan's survey of pre-2006 Mahler recordings, which is a handy resource. Lots of nice things said about Kubelik in there.

http://www.musicweb-international.com/Mahler/index.html


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## Bill H.

I recently discovered the Mahler 5 Kubelik conducted in 1951 at the Holland Festival (the very same festival where Klemperer conducted his "Resurrection" with Kathleen Ferrier in the "Urlicht"). It's become one of my favorites of M#5, even with the mono sound that was derived from acetate 78s.


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## Sudonim

GeneralOJB said:


> Is Rafael Kubelík generally recommended for Mahler's symphonies? I'm going to spend this year getting to know all of his symphonies and I want to make sure I start with a good recording.


Yes, Kubelík was an excellent Mahler conductor. I assume you're referring to the complete set:









It's generally regarded as one of the best complete sets (along with Bernstein/Sony, Bertini, Tennstedt, and one or two others). But, as I'm sure you've heard, the _preferable_ way to traverse the symphonies is to get different conductors' recordings. The link Blancrocher provides (above) is a great way to explore.


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## Avey

I'm typically all over the board with recordings -- i.e. no consistency in conductor/orchestra -- but I was turned on to Tennstedt's work by a familiar name around these parts, and I've grown quite partial to his performances. 

I will say, however, finding his recordings has proved difficult, especially in cost. I have yet to stumble upon a record or CD in stores of Tennstedt's versions, and when I find them on Amazon (for MP3 DL), they are often the most expensive recordings. I assume because they are live...?


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## Itullian

This.


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## Guest

I really like Kubelik's live recordings of the 1st and DLvdE on Audite. They are at the top of my list. Admittedly, I haven't heard any of his DG recordings.


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## FLighT

Mahler’s symphonies, more than any other composer I can think of, are open to a variety of approaches and interpretations. And from all the reading I’ve done about Mahler over the years it seems to me that he didn’t want conductors to approach his compositions within a rigid interpretative framework. While a single conductor’s cycle may be good for an overview and introduction (and cost effective), no one conductor that I’m familiar with nails them all consistently in a set, and not all did complete surveys. Many conductors have recorded several of the symphonies more than once with different orchestras over the decades, and some have altered their approaches to the same work over time.

For white hot intensity there’s Solti. For an overly emotional approach to push the excitement sometimes at the expense of clarity, there’s Bernstein. For clarity above all else there’s Boulez. I find Abbado’s tempos in general provide a consistent, un-quirky approach that never detracts from the music. Tennstedt’s performances are uniquely revealing of subtleties I hadn’t picked up on with other conductors and I’m not always certain myself what he does that makes it work. Klemperer is epic. And, of course, there’s Bruno Walter, who knew Mahler well and was associated with him while he was alive. 

There are also a lot of worthy one-offs from many different conductors that, while not Mahler specialists, managed to bring something interesting and satisfying to a given symphony or two. And with some of the symphonies there are numerous top shelf performances and interpretations: like with Mahler 1 and 5. The 7th has very few performances that work for me. Barbirolli, Rattle, Hornstein, Haitink, among others, have produced some great performances over the years.

I’m in my 44th year of listening to Mahler, and I would be hard pressed to decide on a single conductors approach to them all. 

Listening to Mahler (if his music speaks to you) can almost be a discipline unto itself within the overall genre of classical music listening. But then that could also apply to any of the great composers. And believe me, after I have a “Mahlerfest” I look forward to a change of mentality with the beauty of melody and clean lines of Mozart, or the always “right to the ear” works of Beethoven, and so on.

So buy all means, jump into Mahler with a complete survey, if you like the water then do some investigative reading into the individual works that speak to you right out of the gate. And if possible I encourage you to attend live performances as well; I’ve attended performances of all but the 10th more than two times each over the years, always a life enhancing experience for me that puts me off of listening to recorded Mahler for weeks as I revisit the live experience in my memory.


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## Ukko

Kubelik does the hard Mahler very well. You cant refer to a Rockwell chart, so I'll say that Walter does soft Mahler and Abravanel is in between. Bernstein does Lenny Mahler.


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## FLighT

Ukko said:


> ... Bernstein does Lenny Mahler.


LOL, I couldn't have said it better myself!


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## Vaneyes

I list my* reckless Mahler*, which I prefer, but don't let it limit collecting. Two, three, or more, for each work is easy.

1. Muti; 2. Scherchen; 3. LB (SONY); 4. Harding; 5. Shipway; 6. Barbirolli (EMI); 7. Solti ('71); 8. LB (Sony, LSO '66); 9. LB (Sony).

Top lyrical readings would have to include Walter, Horenstein, Kubelik, Klemperer, Bertini, LB (DG), Abbado, Boulez, Tennstedt, HvK, Haitink, Giulini.

Some conductors whose personal stamps don't work IMO, that usually fall into the lyrical category--MTT, Rattle, Chailly, Gielen, Mehta.


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## Radames

I have heard many Kubelik recordings - but never any of his Mahler. In Mahler I usually prefer the Solti approach -caveman having a seisure whips orchestra into a frenzy!!


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## Polyphemus

I advise against complete sets of a composers output by a single conductor. There are plenty of best buys in various price ranges which will give a broader view of Mahler. I know the Kubelik set and very fine it is too, but to limit yourself to one conductors interpretation of such varied music is a bit limiting.
Besides you will have hours of fun hunting down the 'best buys' on 'Google'.
Happy hunting.


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## Vaneyes

Polyphemus said:


> I advise against complete sets of a composers output by a single conductor. There are plenty of best buys in various price ranges which will give a broader view of Mahler. I know the Kubelik set and very fine it is too, but to limit yourself to one conductors interpretation of such varied music is a bit limiting.
> Besides you will have hours of fun hunting down the 'best buys' on 'Google'.
> Happy hunting.


Excellent advice, and should go for most composers.

I just did something I've been meaning to do for some time--search Amazon.com Marketplace for inexpensive single and double CDs amongst the Mahler highly-considered, and see what kind of a cycle I could come up with.

I found some impressive bargains, if you don't mind "previously-enjoyeds" aka used CDs. Most with latest remasterings. I kicked it off with the subject of this thread. Other well-thought-ofs are within a few cents or dollars of those listed. :tiphat:

M1 - Kubelik (DG), $2.78
M2 - Klemperer (EMI, studio) $0.55
M3 - Bernstein (Sony 2CD) $4.98
M4 - Reiner (RCA) $2.59
M5 - Bernstein (DG) $0.65
M6 - Boulez (DG) $2.88
M7 - Solti (Decca) $2.97
M8 - Solti (Decca) $2.21
M9 - Bernstein (Sony) $1.53
M10 - Wigglesworth (BBC Music) $0.07
DLVDE - Tennstedt (EMI) $3.15


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## hpowders

In my huge box set of the NY Philharmonic Mahler "live" collection, Kubelik conducts a very fine Mahler 7th, probably the most difficult of all Mahler symphonies to conduct convincingly.


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## DavidA

I am just traversing Kubelik's Mahler symphonies as I bought a box of his complete DG recordings. All I can say they are beautifully done in a more lyrical being than usual. If you want the gut wrenching neurotic then don't go here. But if you want something that brings out the beauties of the music then Kubelik is your man.


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## Merl

As many have said, Kubelik's Mahler box is a good, solid set. Personally i prefer his Audite recordings. His Audite 1st is a cracker. And his 5th is a great performance but lacks a bit of bass. If you just want a set to get familiar with then Bertini, Tennstedt and Gielen are all highly recommendable.


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## Kiki

Did Audite has/release a live 4th from Kubelik? That seems to be the one that's missing (or just because I cannot find it). The recorded sound quality of these live accounts does vary quite a bit.


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## Merl

Kiki said:


> Did Audite has/release a live 4th from Kubelik? That seems to be the one that's missing (or just because I cannot find it). The recorded sound quality of these live accounts does vary quite a bit.


That I know of the 4th is the only one not available. Its the only one I haven't got (apart from the 10th).


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## So Provincial

Kubelik's DG boxed set of Mahler is to be highly recommended.

Most of the symphonies, if not all, were recorded in the 1960s and although the sound is rather lean Kubelik's interpretations are spot on, with the pace slightly on the sprightly side.

If you buy the boxed set. you will enjoy many hours of pleasurable listening.


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## Becca

Let me reiterate something that I have said many times and which has also been mentioned earlier in this thread ... unless your goal is to get a low-priced set of all symphonies*, a single conductor set is not the way to go. Of those conductors who have recordings available of all the symphonies, I cannot think of a single one where all the recordings are in the top tier. Not even Bernstein! If you really want to get to know the symphonies, the best tactic is to pick and choose amongst the wide variety available. ALSO, do not constrain yourself to the studio recordings as there are many cases where a conductor's best work comes from a commercially available concert performance.

It is interesting to observe that some conductors with eminent Mahler credentials, have admitted that they are not sympathetic with all the symphonies and so they chose not to record those works. Note that this included Bruno Walter who worked closely with Mahler, also Otto Klemperer who also had connections with Mahler.

* or you have a hangup with a particular conductor ** 

** or you are an OCD collector


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## Larkenfield

Review of the Kubelik's fine Mahler set: https://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/mahler-complete-symphonies-6


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## wkasimer

So Provincial said:


> Kubelik's DG boxed set of Mahler is to be highly recommended.
> 
> Most of the symphonies, if not all, were recorded in the 1960s and although the sound is rather lean Kubelik's interpretations are spot on, with the pace slightly on the sprightly side.
> 
> If you buy the boxed set. you will enjoy many hours of pleasurable listening.


I believe that the Kubelik Mahler set is about to be reissued in Blu-Ray audio.


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## DavidA

Becca said:


> Let me reiterate something that I have said many times and which has also been mentioned earlier in this thread ... unless your goal is to get a low-priced set of all symphonies*, a single conductor set is not the way to go. Of those conductors who have recordings available of all the symphonies, I cannot think of a single one where all the recordings are in the top tier. Not even Bernstein! If you really want to get to know the symphonies, the best tactic is to pick and choose amongst the wide variety available. ALSO, do not constrain yourself to the studio recordings as there are many cases where a conductor's best work comes from a commercially available concert performance.
> 
> It is interesting to observe that some conductors with eminent Mahler credentials, have admitted that they are not sympathetic with all the symphonies and so they chose not to record those works. Note that this included Bruno Walter who worked closely with Mahler, also Otto Klemperer who also had connections with Mahler.
> 
> * or you have a hangup with a particular conductor **
> 
> ** or you are an OCD collector


I would agree but if I only had one set to live with it would be Kubelik. To me Mahler is neurotic and noisy enough without playing those elements. Kubelik's is Mahler to live with.


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## mbhaub

For those of use who have been following Mahler recordings for 50+ years, it's been interesting to hear how recorded performances have evolved. Kubelik was a very musical, balanced, beautiful approach. As time when on and conductors like Solti took on Mahler, the performances became more visceral, loud and even angry. And many conductors went out of their way to turn the symphonies in a set of Concertos for Orchestra, where virtuosity and brilliance took precedence over the musical thought. To my ears now, the Kubelik DG recordings are easy to live with, and despite the studio sound, are still quite valid. Maybe that's why I'm one of the few who actually likes the Chailly/Decca set. They are quite similar. But I wouldn't want to be without Bertini, Solti, or Bernstein. Or Maazel's Sony set either.


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## Josquin13

As WKasimer mentioned above, Kubelik's DG Mahler cycle (1967-71) has finally! been newly remastered. Here are the details: The cycle is set to be released on November 9, 2018 in the US (November 2nd in Britain). If I'm not mistaken, only Symphony No. 1 had been previously remastered (via DG's 'original image bit processing' series) & released individually, that is, since the initial release of the box set on CD (in the late 1980s?): https://www.amazon.com/Gustav-Mahler-Symphony-Fischer-Dieskau-Orchestra/dp/B000001GX9. As I've mentioned before on these threads, IMO, Kubelik's DG cycle needed to be remastered, as the first CDs had thinned down the sound from the original LPs. Now it will be available on 1 Blu-ray audio disc in hi-res 24 bit/96 kHz and on 10 CDs, in an original jacket collection, with an 80 page booklet in English, German & French that includes sung texts and two Mahler essays. I'll be interested to read the sound reviews of the new remasters:

https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-10-Sy...491616&sr=1-1&keywords=kubelik+Mahler+blu+ray

I see the set is presently less expensive to pre-order from Presto Classical, than Amazon US:
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8497750--mahler-10-symphonies


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## DavidA

Josquin13 said:


> As WKasimer mentioned above, Kubelik's DG Mahler cycle (1967-71) has finally! been newly remastered. Here are the details: The cycle is set to be released on November 9, 2018 in the US (November 2nd in Britain). If I'm not mistaken, only Symphony No. 1 had been previously remastered (via DG's 'original image bit processing' series) & released individually, that is, since the initial release of the box set on CD (in late 1980s?): https://www.amazon.com/Gustav-Mahler-Symphony-Fischer-Dieskau-Orchestra/dp/B000001GX9. As I've mentioned before on these threads, IMO, Kubelik's DG cycle needed to be remastered, as the original 1980s CDs had thinned down the sound from the original LPs. Now it will be available on 1 Blu-ray audio disc in hi-res 24 bit/96 kHz and on 10 CDs, in an original jacket collection, with an 80 page booklet in English, German & French that includes sung texts and two Mahler essays. I'll be interested to read the sound reviews of the new remasters:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-10-Sy...491616&sr=1-1&keywords=kubelik+Mahler+blu+ray
> 
> I see the set is presently less expensive to pre-order from Presto Classical, than Amazon US:
> https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8497750--mahler-10-symphonies


I have the CDs from the complete Kubelik recordings on DG which sound pretty good to me


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## Larkenfield

According to the Gramophone review, the original Kubelik set was originally released in 1990 rather than during the 1980s... Glad it’s been remastered in its upcoming new release.


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## Merl

Becca said:


> Let me reiterate something that I have said many times and which has also been mentioned earlier in this thread ... unless your goal is to get a low-priced set of all symphonies*, a single conductor set is not the way to go. Of those conductors who have recordings available of all the symphonies, I cannot think of a single one where all the recordings are in the top tier. Not even Bernstein! If you really want to get to know the symphonies, the best tactic is to pick and choose amongst the wide variety available. ALSO, do not constrain yourself to the studio recordings as there are many cases where a conductor's best work comes from a commercially available concert performance.
> 
> It is interesting to observe that some conductors with eminent Mahler credentials, have admitted that they are not sympathetic with all the symphonies and so they chose not to record those works. Note that this included Bruno Walter who worked closely with Mahler, also Otto Klemperer who also had connections with Mahler.
> 
> * or you have a hangup with a particular conductor **
> 
> ** or you are an OCD collector


I know what you mean, Becca, and agree as an experienced Mahler listener but for Mahler-noobs a consistently good box set is a good way to get to know the symphonies before you jump in the deep end with individual recordings. Of course you are right (i have more single symphony performances of Mahler than any other composer) but having a boxset starter at least gives you a base and some people (eg. Me) dont like every Mahler symphony (I'm thinking of one specific symphony i just dont get slong with). Personally i prefer Tennstedt's box to most others and dont think there's any duffers in it but if you can pick up a cheap box (pretty rare for Mahler complete symphonies) then id say go for it. Probably better to stream via Spotify / listen on youtube first.


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## Guest

Lot's of good advice, especially that, to truly enjoy Mahler, don't limit yourself to a single conductor. All bring different insights to different works. Don't avoid a complete cycle by a single conductor, but expect that to be the "definitive" collection. Kubelik's Audite live recordings of the 1st and Das Lied von der Erde are still the recordings I prefer. I have heard, but don't own, his DG cycle - generally, I very much enjoy Kubelik.


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## Josquin13

DavidA writes, "I have the CDs from the complete Kubelik recordings on DG which sound pretty good to me."

In comparison the the DG LPs? Which was my point.

Here's Kubelik DG 5th on vinyl (posted by VINYL'S REVENGE on You Tube):






I admit I may personally prefer the sound of LPs, having grown up with vinyl, but Kubelik's 5th on LP (via YT) does sound warmer & fuller to me than on CD.

If the new remasters sound as ample as the YT link above, my guess is that the new set will modify the general view of Kubelik as only a Mahler conductor for the early symphonies.


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## Merl

Oliver, If you really want to get to know Mahler's symphonies and can spare 75 cents (or the UK equivalent) then buy the digital mp3 complete Abravanel set. Its not the greatest Mahler complete set but it's unfussy and competent enough. When youve found out which symphonies you'd like to know better then do a search on here for individual recommendations (there's lots) and grab yourself a few of those (you can get some massive bargains secondhand on Fleabay and Amazon). Here's the link to the site for the Abravanel. What have you got to lose for 75 cents?

https://www.classicselect.com/collections/digital-downloads-99-cents-each/products/big-mahler-box-13-hour-digital-boxed-set


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## CnC Bartok

While I would very much echo the recommendation of not sticking to one Mahler conductor, here's a review I wrote a few years ago on Amazon......

These recordings were the first set of Mahler I ever owned, on a set of LPs which, for some strange reason i remember cost £22 back about thirty years ago! Over time I played them and replaced each symphony with recordings deemed "better" by various oracles; not something I ever regretted, of course, as I got a much clearer picture of Mahler's genius as a result. A few years back, I decided to reinvest in these ones on CD, and it made me realise how good these performances actually are. A set to return to.....

What makes Kubelik's approach so satisfying, then? Kubelik's cycle shows all the characteristics one associates with this conductor - he lets the music speak for itself and is free of some of the idiosyncracies that some hear in, for example, Bernstein's interpretations - and especially for the clarity of the middle voices of the orchestra. Some may find Kubelik tends to gloss over the Central European Angst that has become a characteristic of Mahler's music as he has established himself as one of the top symphonists, but for me this means his recordings bear repeat listening better than others do. His generally most loved/respected readings are of the lighter works - No.1 and No.4 are justly considered among the finest ever recorded - but he holds the sprawl of No.3 together beautifully, finds the heart-rending aspects of the other great Adagios of No.9 (and No.10!), the right amount of inexorable inevitability in No.6, and the right level of weirdness in the inner movements of the under-rated Seventh. His soloists in the big choral works are among the best, and although there is a lack of the theatrical here, especially in No.8, both this and the Resurrection are satisfying readings in their own right. In short, Kubelik lets Mahler take centre stage, and he is, in the best meaning of the word, a "safe" recommendation.


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## Larkenfield

Merl said:


> Oliver, If you really want to get to know Mahler's symphonies and can spare 75 cents (or the UK equivalent) then buy the digital mp3 complete Abravanel set. It's not the greatest Mahler complete set but it's unfussy and competent enough. When you've found out which symphonies you'd like to know better than do a search on here for individual recommendations (there are lots) and grab yourself a few of those (you can get some massive bargains secondhand on Fleabay and Amazon). Here's the link to the site for the Abravanel. What have you got to lose for 75 cents?
> 
> https://www.classicselect.com/collections/digital-downloads-99-cents-each/products/big-mahler-box-13-hour-digital-boxed-set


Yes, a wonderful set with a considerable focus on Mahler's musicality by Abravanel and the Utah Symphony-the first Mahler cycle ever recorded with the same orchestra... and no, it wasn't Bernstein as the first. I find Abravanel's performance of the First Symphony suspenseful, vivid, and thrilling... a steal at this price.


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## Becca

The argument against going for a set as an introduction is that, at least in my experience, poorer performances of an individual symphony can turn you off to that particular work. To rephrase what I said earlier, I believe that every complete set has at least one symphony where the conductor either was having a bad day or just didn't 'get it'. These days it is so easy to sample multiple recordings so why not do so and then get those that really connect with you?


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## Guest

Becca said:


> The argument against going for a set as an introduction is that, at least in my experience, poorer performances of an individual symphony can turn you off to that particular work. To rephrase what I said earlier, I believe that every complete set has at least one symphony where the conductor either was having a bad day or just didn't 'get it'. These days it is so easy to sample multiple recordings so why not do so and then get those that really connect with you?


I agree - particularly with the longer/bigger works, like the 3rd, 7th, and 8th. A bad recording can really turn you off. For my part, I never cared for Solti's 8th (heresy, I know), and it turned me off of that symphony for a long time, until I heard a recording that I enjoyed.


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## wkasimer

DrMike said:


> I agree - particularly with the longer/bigger works, like the 3rd, 7th, and 8th. A bad recording can really turn you off. For my part, I never cared for Solti's 8th (heresy, I know), and it turned me off of that symphony for a long time, until I heard a recording that I enjoyed.


Which one was that? I'm still struggling with the 8th.


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## Merl

wkasimer said:


> Which one was that? I'm still struggling with the 8th.


Me too. I have at least 30 versions of it in cycles and individual recordings and I still haven't found one that makes me like it.


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## DavidA

wkasimer said:


> Which one was that? I'm still struggling with the 8th.


Same here. I have the Kubelik set so wonder what he makes of it


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## Triplets

I don't really get Sanitized Mahler, which seems to be what you are after.

Mahler without angst seems kind of pointless to me, but Brit Conductors seem to specialize in that. Try Daniel Harding


DavidA said:


> I would agree but if I only had one set to live with it would be Kubelik. To me Mahler is neurotic and noisy enough without playing those elements. Kubelik's is Mahler to live with.


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## Guest

wkasimer said:


> Which one was that? I'm still struggling with the 8th.


I have Kent Nagano's recording with the Deutsches Symphonie-Orchester Berlin on Harmonia Mundi. I enjoy that recording. It still isn't my favorite of his symphonies - that swings back and forth between the 2nd and the 6th, depending on my mood. But I appreciate the 8th much more with the Nagano recording than I ever did with the Solti, although the Solti is frequently listed as not only a great Mahler 8th, but one of those great recordings in general.


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## Becca

I have heard quite a few versions of the 8th, including Solti and Bernstein, and currently have 2 on CD - Tennstedt and Rattle. Despite that, my vote for the best available 8ths are not necessarily CDs or even commercially available. If you are having problems coming to grips with the work, I strongly recommend trying these. If that doesn't work for you ... 

- A 2002 Proms performance with the National Youth Orchestra of GB conducted by Simon Rattle - it can be found on YouTube. Despite it being a youth orchestra, there is a frisson about it that trumps the studio recordings. (Rattle's CBSO recording was done around that time with the almost the same soloists and choirs.)

...and coming close behind that...

- The combined Los Angeles Philharmonic and Simon Bolivar Orchestras under Gustavo Dudamel doing a concert performance in Caracas, Venezuela - available on DVD.


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## derin684

DrMike said:


> I agree - particularly with the longer/bigger works, like the 3rd, 7th, and 8th. A bad recording can really turn you off. For my part, I never cared for Solti's 8th (heresy, I know), and it turned me off of that symphony for a long time, until I heard a recording that I enjoyed.


Same thing happened to me in Mahler 7th until I found the Klemperer EMI recording. Now it's one of my favourites. I agree that "The right recording" can change a lot. I think that the other recordings were just 'too fast' for me. Also what do you have for the 8th?


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## Guest

derin684 said:


> Same thing happened to me in Mahler 7th until I found the Klemperer EMI recording. Now it's one of my favourites. I agree that "The right recording" can change a lot. I think that the other recordings were just 'too fast' for me. Also what do you have for the 8th?


See my post above - I like Nagano's 8th on Harmonia Mundi.


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## Triplets

Josquin13 said:


> DavidA writes, "I have the CDs from the complete Kubelik recordings on DG which sound pretty good to me."
> 
> In comparison the the DG LPs? Which was my point.
> 
> Here's Kubelik DG 5th on vinyl (posted by VINYL'S REVENGE on You Tube):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I admit I may personally prefer the sound of LPs, having grown up with vinyl, but Kubelik's 5th on LP (via YT) does sound warmer & fuller to me than on CD.
> 
> If the new remasters sound as ample as the YT link above, my guess is that the new set will modify the general view of Kubelik as only a Mahler conductor for the early symphonies.


Warmer and fuller due to the restricted dynamic range of vinyl?


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## DavidA

Reading about Kubelik from people who knew him he appears to have been a nice guy unsuited to the cut and thrust of musical politics. He was a fabulous musician, being a very accomplished violinist (he could play the Paganini 1st violin concerto) and a pianist who was able to accompany his father. He was also a composer. Though no doubt like us all he had his faults, he comes over as a man of integrity - as does his music making. Just listening to the Mahler 7 a work I don't know until now. The playing a recording is fabulous.


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## Larkenfield

The best 8th I’ve heard by a country mile — not Solti’s strident effort — is, believe it or not Dudamel’s 8th with the Simon Bolivar Orchestra (can be heard online). No kidding. For me he shows his worth as a great conductor, with an ideal choice of vocalists (that’s half the battle in making this symphony an overwhelming success) and a monumental experience of a truly great symphony—one of Mahler’s most successful in his lifetime... It depends on how much one likes the composer, but I see nothing wrong with having a complete set or two (or three or four) as starting points to get the lay of the land and then collecting the exceptional individual performances. Mahler can be performed in a number of exceptional ways and I’ve rarely heard a truly awful performance , except of course the ones by...


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## Josquin13

Perhaps the problem with Mahler's 8th isn't so much the quality of music, but rather that it's murderously difficult music to sing well for nearly 90 minutes. I've heard numerous recordings that are well enough conducted and played, but where the singing falls short. The (overly) operatic sounding soloists are often disappointing, or worse, they have a tendency to turn Mahler's symphony into melodrama, which I don't think is quite right, is it? (though maybe the melodrama or what some call "bombast" can't be avoided by the choruses and soloists, maybe it is inherent in the music, I'm not sure...).

The following article from Forbes magazine addresses the current discussion on Mahler's 8th. The reviewer likewise dislikes the (highly regarded) Solti CSO recording. Like Dr. Mike, they prefer Nagano (which I've not heard), and others (such as Kubelik's live Audite, & Bertrand Billy's), but the critic's top pick may surprise people. It didn't me because I once heard this conductor conduct a stupendous Mahler 2nd live in concert many years ago:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jensla...hler-eighth-the-best-recordings/#13089aec7060

However, I don't entirely agree with the Forbes reviewer that Ozawa's performance is the #1 top choice for Mahler's 8th:





If anyone is seriously trying to understand the score better, I think it helps to suffer through the poor sound of Leopold Stokowski's live 1950s Carnegie Hall recording. As a young man, Stokowski attended the world premiere of the 8th, with Mahler conducting (& F. Charles Adler serving as chorus master). The premiere was a great success. So Stokowski knew something about how Mahler conducted the 8th. The experience must have given him insights into the music, how could it not? After all, he had heard first hand what Mahler's conception of the 8th was, & how the composer had envisioned the music. Otherwise, there is no recording of the 8th by a conductor that knew how Mahler conducted the work, or knew and worked with Mahler. Walter, Klemperer, Adler, and Fried all avoided it like the plague, interestingly. I wonder--did they fear that it would become a total nightmare to pull off successfully (especially for sound engineers back then?), and didn't want to tarnish Mahler's newly burgeoning reputation as a result?






(With the one possible exception being Hermann Scherchen, who is thought to have played in an orchestra that Mahler conducted: I find Scherchen's 1951 Mahler 8th with the Vienna Philharmonic fascinating, though again the sound quality is poor: 



)

It also helps to suffer through the less than ideal sound of Jasha Horenstein's 1959 LSO recording for the BBC: 




Otherwise, during the digital era, I've heard several Italian conductors, one Austrian, one Finn, & two Czechs that have conducted the 8th well. Among the Italians, I have a suspicion that it's one of Riccardo Chailly's favorite Mahler symphonies, since he's now recorded it three times (first with the Concertgebouw, and then live with the Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra, and again live at the Lucerne Festival--on DVD).










Claudio Abbado also does well in the 8th.






Fabio Luisi has been well reviewed in this symphony too. (I'm not as keen on Sinopoli, but many like his 8th.)

Another standout is the Austrian conductor & composer Michael Gielen, who I think has a natural affinity for this symphony. Like Chailly, he recorded it more than once (a 1981 live in Frankfurt, and a second recording for Hanssler, as part of his Mahler cycle). Gielen's live Frankfurt 8th would be my budget pick:

https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symph...92247&sr=1-3&keywords=Michael+Gielen+mahler+8

In addition to Rafael Kubelik's superb live 8th on Audite, another Czech conductor, Vaclav Neumann, was also highly regarded for his Mahler 8th. Neumann's 1982 Prague recording with the Czech Philharmonic won the coveted Grand prix du Disque (released on Pro Arte & Supraphon), and deservedly so, I think. It's not quite as 'full throttle' and exciting as Kubelik's 8th, but it is concentrated, coherent, & joyful music making: which is better than most conductors do in the 8th: 




However, my current top pick among digital era 8ths may surprise people: It's Leif Segerstam's Chandos recording with the Danish National Radio S.O. (though I admit I'm intensely into Segerstam's Mahler cycle at the moment, in my listening hours, so I may have a present bias or be a bit overly enthusiastic--which is my tendency):






Finally, didn't Klaus Tennstedt's London Philharmonic studio recording of the 8th win a "rosette" award from the Penquin Guide decades ago? I haven't heard that recording in many years, so I can't really offer an opinion.

(P.S. Among recent recordings, I'm considering buying Thierry Fischer's live 8th with the Utah Symphony, and the impassioned Mormon Tabernacle Choir, especially for the sound recording, which is supposed to be state of the art:














Has anyone heard it? Any strong opinions?)


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## Merl

Larkenfield said:


> The best 8th I've heard by country mile - not Solti's - is Dudamel's 8th with the Simon Bolivar Orchestra (can be heard online). IMO, he proves his worth as a great conductor with an ideal choice of vocalists and a monumental performance of a truly great symphony, one of Mahler's most successful in his lifetime.


Lots of people have recommended that Dudamel performance to me so, whilst I'm off on half term, I'm gonna listen to it. If that one doesn't hit I'll probably just give up on the 8th and accept it just isn't one for me.


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## Becca

Becca said:


> - A 2002 Proms performance with the National Youth Orchestra of GB conducted by Simon Rattle - it can be found on YouTube. Despite it being a youth orchestra, there is a frisson about it that trumps the studio recordings. (Rattle's CBSO recording was done around that time with the almost the same soloists and choirs.)


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## derin684

DrMike said:


> See my post above - I like Nagano's 8th on Harmonia Mundi.


Oh, sorry. I didn't see that.


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## CnC Bartok

I must say I am very glad to see that (finally!) there has been a mention of that very fine Mahler conductor, Vaclav Neumann. His cycle on Supraphon is an immensely satisfying one, and his Eighth is a highlight. Maybe he isn't as exciting as Kubelik, but his reading has a flow that makes is sound a bit more like a proper symphony than some other performances I know. If Gielen is of interest as well, his earlier performance on Sony, in Frankfurt, is more lively than his later SWR/Stuttgart one, which is a bit earthbound and not a highlight of his otherwise fabulous cycle.

I am a fan of the (in?)famous Solti recording. I admit to it, and am not ashamed of it! It is adrenalin from first bar to last, and for me beautifully sung as well. But for a more considered, more subtle, more "musical" Eighth, personally I'd go for Klaus Tennstedt on EMI.


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## CnC Bartok

If anyone is interested as to what Rafael Kubelik was like as a composer, this CD is worth getting hold of. Very well crafted works.


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## DavidA

Merl said:


> Lots of people have recommended that *Dudamel performance *to me so, whilst I'm off on half term, I'm gonna listen to it. If that one doesn't hit I'll probably just give up on the 8th and accept it just isn't one for me.


Must confess I listened to his Prom performance of the second symphony and was bored out of my mind. Maybe he is better in the 8th


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## Josquin13

Triplets writes, "Warmer and fuller due to the restricted dynamic range of vinyl?"

Well, warmer at least. But I was talking about CDs from the earliest days of the technology--in the 1980s (or 1990 in this case). To my ears, the sound of CDs back then was restricted (or less ample, & more 'metallic' sounding), in a direct comparison to LPs played on a high end system. Do you go back that far?

I also don't entirely buy DG's claim that their older analogue recordings needed to be "corrected and improved" via "Original Image bit processing". I prefer the way my old DG LPs sounded. But then, as I said, I'm a vinyl lover--at least up until recent years. Even if I do see that there's more spatial definition to be heard on CDs in recent decades.

Everything is so heavily miked today. I prefer to listen to recordings that make me feel like I'm in a concert hall. Although, on second thought, even the concert halls today are miked. No classical music is natural sounding anymore. I don't always like hyper definition at the expense of warmth and atmosphere--especially in relation to violins, and chamber music. The German MDG label feels the same way, which is why I especially appreciate their chamber music recordings.

The following isn't perhaps an accurate comparison, but here are two You Tube links, one apparently recorded from the CD (although it sounds better than the CD I own), and the other recorded from the DG LP--both of Kubelik's Mahler 5th: People can draw their own conclusions, if they're interested in doing so:










And yet, the main point I was trying to make is that the new "hi-res 24 bit/96 kHz" remasters of the Kubelik Mahler cycle should be a big improvement over the 1990 DG remasters. & yes, the new set should sound less restricted than the old CDs.

Yesterday, after I posted, I was immediately prevented from correcting my above post. For some reason TC blocked me (for 24 hrs?...Did others have this experience?). I had wanted to make the following correction, but couldn't, and now am unable to do so:

Instead of reading,

"However, my current top pick among digital era 8ths may surprise people: It's Leif Segerstam's Chandos recording with the Danish National Radio S.O...."

It should read,

"However, along with Chailly's Leipzig 8th, my current top pick among digital era 8ths may surprise people: It's Leif Segerstam's..."

As I had second thoughts about claiming that Segerstam's 8th is preferable to Chailly's Leipzig 8th, which is excellent too.


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## Larkenfield

After listening to Leif Segerstam's well-recorded Mahler 8th, I found the opening a little too aggressive for my taste. I think it’s hard to make the beginning lively and upbeat without it sounding too fast or rushed or too aggressive. Then after the opening, I think it’s hard not to slow down too much where the work still sounds angelic and heavenly but without losing its intensity. I think the first movement of this Symphony is one of the hardest in the literature to get just right with the right vocalists and the right tempo and the right dynamics and the right everything... and after listening to at least 10 different versions, I still hear Dudamel’s tremendous performance as the leader of the pack for it. Nevertheless, I think Leif Segerstam's performance gets better and more celestial as the first movement unfolds, and I’m glad I heard his excellent recording.


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