# TC Listening Club Part 3: Symphony No. 5 (Nielsen)



## crmoorhead (Apr 6, 2011)

YouTube LINKS

Here are two versions available for on YouTube. There are some more part recordings available:





 (Royal Concertegebouw Orchestra, Jarvi)




 (San Francisco Symphony, Blomstedt)

There is also a video of Hannu Lintu, guest conductor for the RTE National Symphony Orchestra, speaking about the 5th Symphony in conversation for RTE Lyric FM.






PURCHASE OPTIONS

Here are some available purchasing options. Any additions to this list welcome:

Nielsen: Symphony No. 5/Flute Concerto (Halle, Elder) (Halle)
Nielsen: Symphonies Nos. 4-6 (San Francisco Symphony, Blomstedt) (Decca)
Nielsen: Symphonies 4 & 5 (Danish National Symphony Orchestra, Schonwandt) (Naxos)
Nielsen: Symphonies 4 & 5 (National Symphony Orchestra of Ireland, Leaper) (Naxos)
Nielsen: Symphonies 4 & 5 (LSO, Davis) (LSO Live)

OTHER INFORMATION

The Wikipedia article has some good information here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._5_(Nielsen)

The Chicago Symphony Orchestra provides program notes on their website here:

http://cso.org/uploadedFiles/1_Tickets_and_Events/Program_Notes/ProgramNotes_Nielsen_Symphony5.pdf

(The following taken from program notes written by Robert Markow for a performance by the National Symphony Orchestra)

Denmark's most famous composer, Carl Nielsen, like his Finnish counterpart Sibelius, ranks as one of the leading symphonists of the early twentieth century. Nielsen had a voice all his own, but he grew up in an era that included so many attention-grabbing personalities - Debussy, Bartók, Mahler, Ravel, Satie, Schoenberg, Busoni, Strauss, Stravinsky, Varèse - that there was little room left in the international consciousness for conservative music written by a quiet, simple man in Copenhagen. But times change, and the Nielsen ratings are now significantly higher than they were just a few decades ago. His music, especially the six symphonies and three concertos (clarinet, flute, violin), is now encountered frequently and appreciated for its fresh approach to old forms, for its deeply ingrained spirit of humanity, its vital energy and ingratiating charm. The Danish scholar Robert Naur has explained Nielsen's individual style and affirmative outlook in these words: "No one listening to Nielsen's life work can harbor the slightest doubt that the composer was a man familiar with conflict, the chasms of the human mind, and with human conditions."

Nielsen worked on his Fifth Symphony throughout 1921 and finished it in early January of 1922. A few days later, he conducted the first performance in Copenhagen on January 24. The American premiere was given on January 3, 1951, by the National Symphony, Erik Tuxen conducting. Unlike Nielsen's other symphonies save the First, it bears no suggestive subtitle, yet the music easily lends itself to one. The question is what. Nielsen himself left no clues. Each listener can freely invent his or her own, for the score is filled with conflict, confrontation, intrusion, questing, drama, resolution and triumph. Though only about 35 minutes in length, it seems to take us on a long, varied and fulfilling journey, simultaneously indefinite yet deeply personal.

Robert Simpson, in his monograph on the Nielsen symphonies, sees the Fifth Symphony thus: "Here is man's conflict, in which his progressive, constructive instincts are at war with other elements that face him with indifference or downright hostility. Nielsen found he could best reflect this drama in a two-movement work, the first to contain the crux of the conflict itself and the second to be a finale that would rise out of the ashes in a great fount of regenerative energy."

The symphony opens with quiet murmuring in the violas, an ostinato pattern that will continue for more than one hundred measures. Bassoons present a wandering theme to which horns, flutes and clarinets in turn make contributions. Muted violins introduce the flowing second theme. The mood remains gentle, pastoral, uneventful, until the entrance of the snare drum, which beats out a tattoo that will persist for much of the remainder of the movement. Other percussion instruments get into the act. Conflict and confrontation are now in the air. The mood turns ugly, even violent. Intrusions from the percussion are temporarily halted by a warmly caressing new subject in the mid-range instruments of the orchestra (divided violas and cellos, horns, bassoons), but they return in force while the rest of the orchestra surges on gallantly. By the end of the movement one senses an uneasy truce has been declared as the dialogue for snare drum and solo clarinet fades into the distance.

The first half of the symphony has left us disturbed and in search of resolution ("a frightening vision of madness and of the invasion of order by disorder," as Michael Steinberg sees it). The second half takes off with a joyful, energetic Allegro, densely polyphonic and supported, like the symphony's opening, with its own two-note ostinato pattern, this one initially in the low-range instruments. But resolution is not yet at hand. Two fugal episodes, each based on some aspect of the melodic material already presented, intervene and run their courses (the first one fast and skittish, the second calm and lyrical). The music eventually returns to the movement's opening Allegro in a kind of recapitulation, much condensed in time but expanded in the feeling of resolution, confidence and triumph.


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## crmoorhead (Apr 6, 2011)

UPCOMING

The schedule for the next four Listening Club sessions will be:

PART 4: Symphony No. 3 in D Sharp, "Song Under the Stars" (Rangström) chosen by violadude starting 02/07/12
PART 5: A Faust Symphony (Liszt) chosen by crmoorhead starting 09/07/12
PART 6: TBC by MMSBLS before 08/07/12 and starting 16/07/12
PART 7: TBC by Clementine before 15/07/12 and starting 23/07/12

OTHER THREADS

You can still participate in past Listening Club threads here:

http://www.talkclassical.com/19793-tc-listening-club-week.html
http://www.talkclassical.com/19883-tc-listening-club-week.html

NOMINATIONS

To sign up and nominate pieces for listening, use the following thread or PM crmoorhead. All nominations must have at least one version available on YouTube.

http://www.talkclassical.com/19752-listening-club.html

If a member does not nominate a piece before the deadline in the schedule, a piece will be selected at random from the list of pieces nominated by other members. Members will be given a reminder a few days before the deadline for their selection passes.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

When I first heard this piece, I thought the improvised snare drum cadenza was so awesome. The buildup in the first movement in general is awesome. The structure of the movements and the piece in general is very unique.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

I could write a book about this symphony (which is why I chose it). But, rather than try to write everything I want to say at once, I prefer to do it in pieces.

Let me begin with a bit of personal history. Back in the early 1970's, when I was first getting into classical music, I had a newbie's common aversion to anything "atonal". And, to me, at that time, anything that didn't sound like Haydn, Beethoven, Schumann and Brahms was "atonal". It would have been totally beyond my understanding to figure out that this work is multitonal (or polytonal) rather than atonal. 

But, the strange thing is, that though I purchased the Nonesuch Horenstein LP of this work around that time in my classical experience, I held on to it. I didn't listen to it a lot, but somehow I think I could sense that despite the unfamiliar musical language I was hearing, this was a significant piece of music. "In time", I must have thought, "I might get to like this". And, of course, I did.

(It's really interesting to read the Wikipedia article on this symphony. Near the end of it, they describe what happened at the premiere - people running to the exits during the snare drum fight, the orchestra playing louder and louder. Oh, I would have loved to have been there!)

I like music for many different reasons, but the older I get I find that most of the music that is still capable of moving me emotionally is music that is "about something". It isn't necessary to know exactly what it's about, and it isn't necessary to agree with everyone else, or even with the composer himself/herself as to what it's about. It's just that it is more than just notes on a page. It has meaning - a personal meaning to me that resonates every time I hear it.


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## maestro267 (Jul 25, 2009)

Again, this is a first listen for me (as, I suspect, many of the works in this Listening Club will be), and I love it! The contrast in the first movement between the brutality of the Tempo giusto and the warmth of the Adagio is a highlight for me, and how the snare drum breaks free from the orchestra and just plays at its own will, trying to stop the orchestra.

Great choice!


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

Another great thing about this symphony to me is the beginning. It's like a primordial soup, simmering and bubbling, out of which such great ideas emerge. Every time later in the work that something bright and brilliant emerges from the chaos, it somehow seems to fall back into the cauldron. Nielsen himself compared the work to the story of Sisyphus, and it's an apt comparison. Much like life in this world, where triumph comes and can be enjoyed momentarily, but the struggle never ends.


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

My observation of Nielsen # 5: 

Movement 1: Started calmly, got militant with nice violin them on background then the clarinet and flute added! .. Became calmer with trumpet/trombone and militant again (its like shostakovitch works)

2: Emotionally started, in the middle it became militant and angry again with very histeric drums ... then the florishing of goodness appeard again with a good violin and brass theme! and I liked this movement more.

3: An epic/beautiful start ... It gave me the sense of an engine or train sometimes ... at the middle it got a nice wind/bass instruments them and then a calm late romantic theme to the last two minutes and a good closure. Best of the three (I think It's style was something between Sibelius, Shostakovitch, Mahler and Stravinsky)

7.1/10

----
Still, I cannot distinguish Trombone, Trumpet and Brass (and sometimes Horn) without watching the orchestra.


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## crmoorhead (Apr 6, 2011)

I bought a couple of versions of this symphony, namely the Naxos recording by Adrian Leaper and the National Orchestra of Ireland and the Halle orchestra with Mark Elder. I am not familiar with Nielsen as a composer, so was very interested in trying this symphony.

This symphony is among the most enigmatic I have listened to. As others have said, it is similar to works by Mahler and Sibelius, although it is a lot shorter than Mahler's symphonies and probably contains more elements of conflict than Sibelius. After reading what I can on thebackground of this peice, Nielsen's own suggestions make nothing clear to me. From the Chicago Sym. Orch program notes linked to above:



Karl Nielsen said:


> My first symphony was nameless too. But then came The Four Temperaments, Espansiva,and The Inextinguishable, actually just different names for the same thing, the only thing that music can express when all is said and done: the resting powers as opposed to the active
> ones. If I were to find a name for this, my new fifth symphony, it would express something
> similar.


And also:


Karl Nielsen said:


> I'm rolling a stone up a hill, I'm using the powers in me to bring the stone to the top. The stone lies there so still, powers are wrapped in it, until I give it a kick and the same powers are released and the stone rolls down again. But you mustn't take that as a programme!


From wiki:



> In a statement to his student Ludvig Dolleris, Nielsen described the symphony as "the division of dark and light, the battle between evil and good" and the opposition between "Dreams and Deeds".[33] To Hugo Seligman he described the contrast between "vegetative" and "active" states of mind in the symphony.


This, to me, seems all rather abstract Nielsen seems to be saying that he is trying to portray a general program rather than anything specific - themes that could apply to many a situation, to be interpreted by the listener in a personal manner. I have seen elsewhere that Nielsen said that the symphony was non-programmatic. Nonetheless, the choice of two movements is unusual. I don't think I have listened to a two movement symphony before that I can recall.

Logically, two movements must be related somehow, and the gathering of potential energy and its release would seem to be a two-part description (and a rather scientific or philosophic one) as opposed to the traditional three-act story format or the four-part traditional classical symphony format. It could also be the two different sides to one coin, or two different viewpoints of the same event.

I am writing a more detailed analysis as I listen to this more and more. I suspect that I will have a lot to talk about with Vesteralen concerning this symphony. I started out intending a single post reply, but it became too long. It is certainly a very intriguing symphony, but one that is more challenging to the listener. I would give this symphony 8.2/10


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Listened to this symphony for the first time in a while yesterday. Some thoughts:

- The snare drums and overall meter of the piece seem to create a feeling of inevitable and constant moving forward at a fast pace. 

- A constant see-saw battle between serenity and urgency, the serenity is constantly transformed by the urgency of the moment. 

- This work reminds me of an undulating serpent alternating between revealing shadow and light.

- A small space of 'no time' or reflection towards the end - yet still a sense of urgency rises, here I am reminded of a Mahleresque feeling of bittersweet triumph. 

- The conclusion is quick - it seems to satisfy me sonically, yet is it really convincing? I don't get the sense of any profound realization attained here as in a Bruckner symphony finale, but perhaps I should take Nielsen on his own terms here. 

My over-all score for this symphony = 7.8/10


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## crmoorhead (Apr 6, 2011)

PART I

The beginning of this symphony very much reminds me of nature. It is calm and languid with the constant of the siren-like strings in the background like shimmering water or the bubbling of a stream. Occasionally these strings will come to the fore, boosted by the flute, and it is a sound to be later taken up by the clarinet as the music increases in power. The lower strings play a slow and wistful march which, again, is to be taken up by woodwinds later on just prior to the entrance of the snare drum.

The snare drum enters at first quietly (presaged by quiet cymbals), as if marching in from the distance, but is announced in full by the alarm call of the triangle. The triangle is perhaps mirroring the strings earlier, or stating a similar objective in the new, more military march that is to follow. Although military is the term I use, I don’t agree that this is a specific program, but rather to be interpreted as an impulse beyond the control of nature. A sinister or irresistible force, perhaps. The strings are plucked in the manner of relentless plodding while the nature theme skirls all around played by various instruments and groups. The march then recedes to reveal a much more agitated and emotionally charged version of that ‘shimmering’ effect with wild interjections from the flute. The snare drum sounds up again, with support from other percussion instruments. There is a sense of something strained here, with neither element taking control. Gradually, both elements seem to fade, both the natural and the militant one with only occasional pulses added as a reminder. The end of this section is very similar to the beginning, but instead of the shimmering in the background, we have the low roll of a bass drum, and maybe this is significant.

So ends the first section, and the next section starts with a similar natural theme that is altogether more hopeful and unmolested. There is no shimmering in the background at all. The music is now lush and romantic. After the first couple of minutes, it reaches a summit and then is slowed down by repeating horns and levels off to almost complete silence. When the music starts again, it is now interrupted by the same shrill flute call as before and inevitably the beauty of the music starts to degrade from here on, especially with the introduction of a long drum roll and the brass section with fanfares on trumpet and short bursts from the snare drum. Where I believe the militant theme in the first section appears to move along with nature, the snare drum and other instruments are much more disruptive and discordant here. Yet eventually the horns rise above it victoriously with an even stronger expression of the initial theme, while the unrest is relegated to the quieter strings and occasional sound of the flute, yet even this quickly becomes drowned out and overwhelmed. Strangely, however, there is a final return of the snare drum as it retreats into the distance and one last drumroll as the nature theme fades away once more. 

The two sections of part one seem to mirror each other, but to what end I am not sure, They both start with what I perceive to be a quiet base theme that gets stronger, but then faces an antagonistic element. In the first section, I perceive the new and the old joining together and changing each other before the newcomer leaves (although with maybe a trace left behind). I could even say that the original theme is enlivened by the coming of the second, although it is quite pessimistic in tone. In the second section, the newcomer clashes more with the original theme and this original theme reacts by smothering the other and the two go their separate ways. The absence of the continuous oscillations of notes for long sections in the second part may be significant, but I can’t say how. 

Also, more participation needed! This is an excellent symphony.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

Thanks for your review crmoorhead. It does seem as if not many people participated in this entry, but I'm satisfied if only one or two people had the opportunity to acquaint themselves for the first time with this work. 

Had Nielsen not written anything else of value (and, in my opinion, he wrote a lot of pieces that reward repeated listening), this symphony alone would put him in my own personal "top composers" list.

Maybe now at least a few other people can understand why I keep plugging his music on this site.

And, if other people don't, that's okay too. Someone else's lack of interest has no effect whatsoever on my feelings about him.


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## crmoorhead (Apr 6, 2011)

I hope that a few more people will respond to this thread, but there are also likely people who are listening and haven't replied to the thread. I had only one recording of Nielsen's works before this and not really listened it at all (it was one of many that I purchased at a bargain price). I will definitely look more into his works, esp since many of my other favourite composers are from around this same period. 

I would be interested in hearing more of your thoughts on this symphony in more detail and/or any recommendations of other Nielsen works.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

As far as an analysis of this particular work, I'm not sure that any additional comments from me would be all that enlightening. You did a great job in describing the music in your earlier post. From there on, what it means to any particular listener is probably pretty subjective (as much of my earlier posting on this thread was). I said I could write a book. I was exaggerating, obviously. And, though I might come up with a fairly slim tome, I'm sure I'd have to pay for publication all by myself.  Though I've been listening to classical music for well over forty years now, I am not now and never will be an expert. I've learned some things, but not enough to try to teach anyone other than a complete novice.

As to Nielsen as a composer, I could say perhaps a little more. To begin with, in this post I'd like to comment on the quality of his work. Over the years I've done a lot of reading in genre fiction - suspense, mystery, science fiction, etc. So much of this kind of writing is really formulaic. I flatter myself that I can tell the difference between a writer trying to make a fast buck by cashing in on a popular medium and one who really was a bit of a trailblazer, or who at least had something to say.

To some degree I make similar distinctions when I listen to music. Not that money necesarily enters into the picture, but it still seems that a lot of talented composers follow trends for one reason or another - the approval of their peers, the perception that the listening public accepts certain styles of music at any given time more than other styles, or simply because it's easier to use a language that's already been invented than to invent a new one.

Nielsen has never struck me that way. There is something so elemental about his work that it makes me feel, rightly or wrongly, that he was a true original. I'm not sure about his chamber music, his piano music, or even a couple of his concertos (though they are of a very high quality). But his symphonic and orchestral music has always impressed me as natural and not contrived in any way. Not everyone will necessarily respond to his vision, but it really seems to be a genuine vision (with only one exception, which I may go into later if I decide to post about my favorite Nielsen symphonic works).


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Well, I listened through the Jarvi/Concertegebouw youtube recording. I don't have as much details to write about it as some have done.

All I can say is, I listened through it, and I liked it.  Not a huge lot, because his style doesn't fit perfectly to my heart mold, but it was quite refreshing. I didn't feel a huge change in _mood _between either mvmt, as in both felt quite tense, although they were certainly different from each other. I liked how the first movement's middle section was a progressive crescendo in a way, lots of interesting musical features in a semi-impressionist manner. Nielsen wasn't really an impressionist, but uses sound as opposed to melodies/harmonies just like any impressionist.


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## Mika (Jul 24, 2009)

I bought this cd box because of this thread:








I listened Vänska version from Spotify:








from youtube I picked Järvi.

Excellent piece, maybe best so far . I am looking forward this year's BBC Proms with Osmo.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

Mika said:


> I bought this cd box because of this thread:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Blomstedt is great, except in the awkward passage in the 4th (try, of all people, Bernstein, in this one).

Love Saga-Drom, too, from the Vanska set.


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## cwarchc (Apr 28, 2012)

I haven't heard Nielsen before.
I have to ask myself why? I really enjoyed this piece, I listened to the Jarvi version on YT
To me he is painting a picture of what appears to be a struggle.
My favourite of the club upto now
I'm off to Amazon to buy some cd's now


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## samurai (Apr 22, 2011)

On *Spotify:

*Pyotr Chaikovskii--*Symphony No.1 in G Minor, Op.13 {"Winter Reveries"}, Symphony No.2 in C Minor, Op.17 {"Little Russian"} and Symphony No.3 in D Major, Op.29 {"Polish"}, *all featuring the Berliner Philharmoniker and Herbert von Karajan. I must say that I find HVK's treatment of these three quite robust and lively works much too tame and sanitised for my liking. I much prefer the Markevitch and Bernstein readings of same.


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## samurai (Apr 22, 2011)

Carl Nielsen--*Symphony No.5, Op.50 and Symphony No.6 {"Sinfonia Semplice"}, *both featuring the Danish Radio Symphony Orchestra and Herbert Blomstedt.


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## Clementine (Nov 18, 2011)

I can't seem to keep up with this listening club, but here are my belated thoughts on the work.

I've had very limited exposure to Nieslen. I've heard his _Wind Quintet_ and _Flute Concerto_ in concert, but I've never really sat down with one of his pieces until now. It was kind of what I expected, a completely competent work, and being one of his more respected pieces, a more inspired one than usual. I wasn't blown away by it; mostly because the second movement puzzled me. If this is a symphony about overcoming obstacles, the obstacles seem to have been hurdled at the end of the first movement. Which left another 15 minute of pleasant, albeit unnecessary material. Some of the gestures seemed a little contrived as well, like the constant timpani beat in the first movement, or the Mahler-esque muted trumpet interjections. However, I'm with general consensus that the snare drum cadenza is nothing short of inspired. Really, the whole first movement is very well done and very touching. Overall, I really liked the piece, and I'd place it on par with works like Schumann's 2nd, Dvořák's 7th, and Mozart's 39th. Not at the height of symphonic literature, but a wonderful addition. Thanks for the recommendation Vesteralen!


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