# Blind Comparison: William Tell Overture



## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

We all need distractions, yes? Well, inspired by the conversation in another thread (about ideal introductory pieces to CM newbies) I've rounded up four recordings of Rossini's William Tell Overture. All information have been scrubbed from the files, so that we may compare and contrast them without the prejudices that knowing conductor or orchestra might introduce. Which are your favorites and why? Least favorites? Please refrain from guessing the provenance, PM me if you'd like to know in advance of the public reveal.

Here are links to download or listen to the MP3 files:

A - https://my.pcloud.com/publink/show?code=XZo739kZQ40m87FtUVSM5GGPilWdEfmSAPJ7
B - https://my.pcloud.com/publink/show?code=XZXk39kZkqTJOzWmwtSHHXzWgbIBkVaT0io7
C - https://my.pcloud.com/publink/show?code=XZ5k39kZkcGNfWWFrmy8b2ubUXkGCXKWUSOX
D - https://my.pcloud.com/publink/show?code=XZJk39kZ9PRblFdBHcSJMEGtQH7byLXNHJlk


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## david johnson (Jun 25, 2007)

A was my favorite. I enjoyed the brass section. D was hampered by its recorded sound, but was fine.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

How about the other two?


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

I had been hoping to include this rendition just to throw people a curveball, but I could not extract the audio, alas. So here it is for comparison.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Ok Matt, Ive been listening this morning so here goes with some brief notes. 

A - 50s / 60s stereo. Biggggg major orchestra and very skilled conductor (theyre eating outta his hand). Beefy sound and real edge of the seat ride. Theres a sense of wild fun in this that makes it infectious and the brass is great. I reckon I might be able to guess who this is. Best one here for me.

B - not mad on the sound of this one but its a decent performance. Whereas recording A is handled as a small symphonic piece, conductor B plays this as an opera conductor would. This is an opera orchestra. Conductor holds this one too tight and doesnt let the orchestra go.

C - obviously live and a very good performance. This conductor can really handle rhythm and has a great ferel for tempo as this orchestra want to go wild but he's holding them back until he relents at the very end. 70s analogue? Glorious woodwind playing and really firm, punchy brass. Like A this one is handled as an encore piece not as part of an opera. Big name conductor, well-known orchestra. Dont know who this is but its very good. Just behind recording A.

D - Awful recording. Really dull and bassy. Nowt wrong with the performance but the big choon is too tight and controlled. Im guessing this is another opera conductor and opera orchestra. Definifely needing a remaster. Lol

So final order is A C B D

Ill mssg you my guesses, Matt


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## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

This is a fun piece for blind comparison. Pops material. I have three recordings of this in my collection, all from the 1950s, but I'm not going to listen to them before I respond to this. I just listened to the four MP3 files.

A: Merl thinks this is from the 1950s or 1960s, but I hear it as being newer. Big orchestra, somewhat flashy conducting and beautiful playing. Great brass. Don't know this recording, but I have a sense of what conductor and orchestra this might be (probably wrong, but I'm just saying I get a sense). This is all great, but to me it's nothing special and a little glib.

B: Live recording, obviously. Smaller orchestra, maybe opera orchestra as Merl says. Or maybe HIP. Somewhat ragged performance, but charming and, to me, unusual. Too much tympani in the recording for my taste, and the percussion, brass, winds, and strings aren't working together smoothly, or at least not in the way in which I'm accustomed. No idea who this could be.

C: Another live recording, but unlike B, a large orchestra under a very dominant baton. Huge, well differentiated sound stage. This sounds new, 1990s at earliest. Top of the line orchestra, I believe, and I think I might even know which one. This performance brought a lot of character to the piece. Simply delightful.

D: Apparently older recording, but still stereo (right?). I don't find the sound quality as poor as others seem to, but it's not great. This performance is staid and majestic with lush strings and really perfect tempi. The way I like it! I think I know which conductor and orchestra this is.

My preferences in what I'm pretty sure will be a minority report:

D, C, B, A


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I started and may have preferred B to A or C as they both seemed very OTT to me. But then I started to wonder what a performance of the piece should try to achieve. Still, for the moment I feel I would not want to listen to A or C again in the near future as I feel the work is showy enough when played fairly "soberly".


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Just for comparison, my own take as far as preferences (but not descriptions which might spoil it for others) is as follows:

C,A,B,D


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Enthusiast said:


> I started and may have preferred B to A or C as they both seemed very OTT to me. But then I started to wonder what a performance of the piece should try to achieve. Still, for the moment I feel I would not want to listen to A or C again in the near future as I feel the work is showy enough when played fairly "soberly".


What does OTT mean?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Over The Top ... i.e. rather excessive


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

I guess I prefer an "OTT" presentation for this overture. It's big music!


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

A.
Expressive cello in the Daybreak. A scary build up to a proper Storm. An agile and expressive Pastorale. And an exciting Galop. Things feel right here.

B. 
An expressive Daybreak and a nice Pastorale are let down by a Mickey Mouse Storm and a non-galloping Galop with fussy dynamics. Yuk. The abysmal, overly compressed recording rubs salt in the wound.

C. 
An even more expressive Daybreak. A dramatic build up to a terrifying storm. A beautiful Pastorale. Very impressed by the articulated excitement in the Galop.

D. 
A more subtle Daybreak, but sounding more sincere than the other three. The Storm is neither over the top nor underwhelming, where everything feels right, except that one moment of fussy dynamics a bit before the storm dies out. A beautiful Pastorale, slow but well-sustained. But the Galop messes it up completely. Fussy fussy fussy! Yuk! Also an abysmal recording with no top end.

My preference: C > A >> D >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> B

If D's Galop is swapped out with that of A or C, it would become my favourite among these 4.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

If there is one thing that I've learnt about my listening it is to limit myself to no more than 2 repetitions of a piece of a time, after that I'm a lot less sure of my memory (that's what getting old does to you!) therefore I've only listened to A and D today and, so far, tend to like D in spite of the sound which doesn't bother me other than to note it. More tomorrow.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Since interest seems to be waning, here are the answers in white, you will need to highlight to see them:

A Bernstein NYPO 1965
B Jansons Symphonieorchester des Bayerischen Rudfunks 2018
C Karajan BPO 1975
D MAriotti Orchestra del Teatro Comunale di Bologna 2018


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## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

Thanks for this. My guesses were hilariously wrong. I thought A was Zubin Mehta with the Israel Philharmonic; B I didn’t know; C was Colin Davis with the LSO; and D was Toscanini with the NBC Orchestra in an old recording. That was fun!


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I finally got around to listening to the B & C and avoided looking at the answers before doing so!

B - I like this, probably the best
C - Very good sound but it feels as though the performance is being micro-managed

My overall opinion, as difficult as it is for an opera overture, would be B then some combination of A, C & D depending on my mood!

P.S. Fascinating, I had been guessing A as one of the major US east coast orchestras, the others I didn't really have an idea about but am not very surprised about C


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

seitzpf said:


> Thanks for this. My guesses were hilariously wrong. I thought A was Zubin Mehta with the Israel Philharmonic; B I didn't know; C was Colin Davis with the LSO; and D was Toscanini with the NBC Orchestra in an old recording. That was fun!


Does it matter? You got involved. Nice one.

PS I told you that A was 50s / 60s, Seitzpf. There's something about that classic analogue sound from that period. :lol: That was the one I nailed too. Had Lenny written all over it. Otherwise I nearly got Karajan and knew that D was an opera conductor and orchestra. B totally threw me as I was sure it was someone like Muti or Chailly. As always, another nice comparison. I don't need to play the William Tell for another for another few years now


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Merl said:


> I don't need to play the William Tell for another for another few years now


Oh, gosh. I don't think I could go a fortnight without playing it at least once. My kids adore it, after all, and I think it's rich enough to reward repeat listens.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I'll take this by sections.

The opening section is slow with plenty of room for emotional display as long as it doesn't turn to mush. Recording A gets it right with perfect emotional heft; I also like the pacing. The only unsatisfying performance comes from B; it's a superficial reading.

The short second section begins with the strong buzzing of bees which is taken over by a horrendous thunderstorm. My preference for this section is Recording C with powerful brass that really sings out. A and D do well, but B is disappointing; once again B is rather superficial with insufficient power and tension.

Time's getting short. A is my favorite of the four versions followed by C and D. B stinks in comparison.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Bulldog said:


> I'll take this by sections.
> 
> The opening section is slow with plenty of room for emotional display as long as it doesn't turn to mush. Recording A gets it right with perfect emotional heft; I also like the pacing. The only unsatisfying performance comes from B; it's a superficial reading.
> 
> ...


Similar to my prefences, tbh. I haven't got any of these versions but I have quite a few sets of Rossini overtures.


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

seitzpf said:


> Thanks for this. My guesses were hilariously wrong. I thought A was Zubin Mehta with the Israel Philharmonic; B I didn't know; C was Colin Davis with the LSO; and D was Toscanini with the NBC Orchestra in an old recording. That was fun!


Firstly, seitzpf, welcome to the forum and allow me to commend you upon having the courage to participate in a thread of this nature as if takes a significant amount of fearlessness to do so as there's nowhere to hide when attempting to critique four performances of a composition in which often the perceived similarities obscure the differences needed to coherently compare and contrast them.

If I may provide some advice for your continued participation in future threads of this nature allow me to convey the following in a comparison of "Blind Comparisons"... (My apologies to Matt for not being able to include his work - I'm away more often than I'm here and thus I'm not familiar with his previous comparisons.)

Becca and Merl are the two most prominent creators of the "Blind Comparison" series of threads.

Becca (despite her location in southern California) is actually English.

Merl (despite his location in Scotland) is actually English.

The English come from "England".

"England" is also known as "Albion".

"Albion" is almost always preceded by the word "perfidious" as in "perfidious Albion".

Perfidious means "treacherous" which is actually intended to be a compliment that I'm extending to them even though somehow it sounds vaguely insulting...

Becca - Her "Blind Comparisons" are exquisitely crafted with first-rate award-winning performances that feature recordings which are uniformly superb and thus much more difficult to detect the kinds of differences which readily lend themselves to insightful analysis and critique.

Her selections require at least two careful listening sessions in order to discern the artistic decisions that were being made by the conductors during the recording process such as unifying the performers, setting the tempo, executing clear preparations and beats, listening critically to shape the sound of the ensemble, and finally controlling the interpretation and pacing of the music itself.

Becca, although English, is not necessarily "perfidious" in the sense of being "treacherous" but she is, however, quite fond of "trickery". I know that for an absolute fact as I have been warned about that aspect of her nature several times via PM by a member who shall remain nameless (If you swipe the white space below this paragraph you'll see that I wrote "It was Merl who sent me several PMs warning me about Becca's predilection for "trickery").

It was Merl who sent me several PMs warning me about Becca's predilection for "trickery".

When crafting her threads, Becca chooses a favourite composition which she then wishes to share with the forum and, as mentioned, carefully curates four recordings which present that composition in the most favourable manner possible.

Becca's "Blind Comparisons" can be rather nerve-wracking as a result of the above mentioned fondness for "trickery" as she wouldn't hesitate to list one conductor leading four different orchestras or listing one recording four separate times whilst sitting back and thoroughly enjoying herself as we "compare and contrast" the same Rattle/BPO recording which she uploaded as examples A.), B.), C.) and D.) despite their being one and the same.

Now, on to Merl...

Merl (despite being English) is not actually "perfidious" or "treacherous" or even "tricky" for that matter - he's actually "cheerfully eccentric" which is this particular Canadian's polite way of saying "completely nuts" (although remaining immensely likable despite his routinely referring to us as "you ba$tards!"...)

Merl always, and I do mean "always", chooses a composition that he "never really cared for and likes now even less" and inevitably ends every review with "I fully intend to never listen to either this composition or any of its recordings during either this lifetime or the next...".

He then curates four recordings each of which is "bloody awful", "absolutely dreadful", "virtually unlistenable", or "the worst sort of rubbish imaginable". He dislikes the composition itself and loathes the recordings with a vehemence that borders on the kind of madness that makes the reader think that his head is just about to explode. The highest praise that he has ever included in a review (and yes, I am including the nearly 1200 complete Beethoven cycle reviews he insists on writing even though we've only been pretending to actually read them - read one, you've read them all, eh?) is "I have mixed feelings on this one". "Mixed feelings" to Merl is roughly equivalent to a recording receiving a Penguin Rosette...

I'm not entirely certain why he wants us to listen to compositions and recordings that he himself "hopes to never have to listen to again" but he does... As mentioned previously, he's English and living in Scotland which pretty much says all you need to know. I mean it's one thing to be an Englishman who commits a crime in Scotland and is then literally imprisoned there in Barlinnie for example but as to why anyone in their right mind would willingly choose to live in what must surely be the coldest dampest grayest windiest most god-forsaken place on this earth (no offense, Malx) is a question that I personally do not have an answer to even though my paternal grandparents were born in Edinburgh and Aberdeen respectively but, to my eternal thanks, had the good sense to emigrate to Canada...

And so, seitzpf, I encourage you to continue participating in these "Blind Comparisons" with the caveat that you should refrain from harshly critiquing any of Becca's selections lest you find yourself inadvertently slagging a "Gramophone Recording of the Year"

- and that _you don't have to actually listen to any of Merl's selection_s - just copy and paste the following -

"My order of preference is B.), C.), A.) and D.). - B.) was my favourite even though it was bloody awful. C.) was absolutely dreadful. A.) was virtually unlistenable and D.) was the worst sort of rubbish imaginable - I never really cared all that much for this composition and I like it even less now and I fully intend to never listen to either this composition or any of its recordings during either this lifetime or the next... you ba$tards!"

- Duncan


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

It's funny - no-one like B but to my ear it (and I suppose D) were the only ones that were true to the work as I understand it. I felt that A and C cheapened the music. But it is little more than a fun piece so I am really uncertain that it matters that they did - I just know I didn't enjoy them very much. Knowing the conductors, now - they are both conductors I rate very highly - I can see where they were coming from but they were never conductors I would go to for this music. I was happy with B but wouldn't buy it!


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

^^ Actually I was quite explicit that B was my favourite.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Duncan said:


> Firstly, seitzpf, welcome to the forum and allow me to commend you upon having the courage to participate in a thread of this nature as if takes a significant amount of fearlessness to do so as there's nowhere to hide when attempting to critique four performances of a composition in which often the perceived similarities obscure the differences needed to coherently compare and contrast them.
> 
> If I may provide some advice for your continued participation in future threads of this nature allow me to convey the following in a comparison of "Blind Comparisons"... (My apologies to Matt for not being able to include his work - I'm away more often than I'm here and thus I'm not unfamiliar with his previous comparisons.)
> 
> ...


OMG, I can't believe it ... you spilled all my secrets in just one post!!! Talk about perfidious!!!!

P.S. I don't believe that I have ever, at least not knowingly, included a "Gramophone Recording of the Year" Perhaps I should try that sometime.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Becca said:


> ^^ Actually I was quite explicit that B was my favourite.


True - your taste, as always, is impeccable! - but it was just you and me with many going strongly the other way.


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## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

Duncan said:


> Firstly, seitzpf, welcome to the forum and allow me to commend you upon having the courage to participate in a thread of this nature as if takes a significant amount of fearlessness to do so as there's nowhere to hide when attempting to critique four performances of a composition in which often the perceived similarities obscure the differences needed to coherently compare and contrast them.
> 
> If I may provide some advice for your continued participation in future threads of this nature allow me to convey the following in a comparison of "Blind Comparisons"... (My apologies to Matt for not being able to include his work - I'm away more often than I'm here and thus I'm not familiar with his previous comparisons.)
> 
> ...


Thank you, Duncan! This is wonderful! I will keep this at hand as a reference for future blind comparisons, in which I will certainly participate despite my relative lack of sophistication.

I lived and worked in England for a couple of years in the late 1980s and have some acquaintance with English, Scottish, and Welsh manners and sensibilities. After a few months in Oxford, I detected that my English colleagues and neighbors found my American manners at times amusing, at times refreshingly transparent and naive, but most often tiresome or annoying. I learned to suppress some parts of my Americanness, but these days I'm too old and unselfconscious to try very hard to do that sort of thing. Ironically, in my own community people have always perceived me as German.

Franz


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Duncan said:


> Now, on to Merl...
> 
> Merl (despite being English) is not actually "perfidious" or "treacherous" or even "tricky" for that matter - he's actually "cheerfully eccentric" which is this particular Canadian's polite way of saying "completely nuts" (although remaining immensely likable despite his routinely referring to us as "you ba$tards!"...)
> 
> ...


Hahaha. Have you had a crack at my Hungarian Dances thread, Duncan? There may be some "bloody awful" recordings in there but mostly they are recordings that many people (and myself) rate highly (plus a few curveballs / oddities). I am dismayed to find that no-one reads my Beethoven reviews any more. Should I write Schumann cycle reviews instead?


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## Common Listener (Apr 6, 2019)

I'm late for this but that's good because I'll get to see the information on the files right after I post this. 

I liked the first ("things feel right" is right) and, to a lesser extent, the third which had an interesting timber to the opening cello and a nice close but was too slow in parts and overly brassy in the "storm." The sound wasn't good to me on B or D and both had weak fast sections which may have been partly sound but was more than that. Since B was weaker, I'll go

A C D B

-- It's amazing how often I do this - I forgot to go to the next page but that's good because this page gives stuff away.

-- Okay, This was fun. Bernstein and Karajan as my favorites and the others being from 2018 is *not* what I'd have expected.


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

Merl said:


> Hahaha. Have you had a crack at my Hungarian Dances thread, Duncan? There may be some "bloody awful" recordings in there but mostly they are recordings that many people (and myself) rate highly (plus a few curveballs / oddities). I am dismayed to find that no-one reads my Beethoven reviews any more. Should I write Schumann cycle reviews instead?
> 
> View attachment 132306


It should be noted that Merl is both a good sport and the creator of one of the most significant series of threads which have ever been posted within this forum - a series of well-written and deeply insightful reviews of each complete Beethoven cycle which has been released to date - the last of which can be found here -

Merl's Beethoven Symphony Cycles Pt13

These come highly recommended and I would encourage all to read through them as they are informative, entertaining, and really quite amusing - well done, my friend, well done indeed!

For going above and beyond the call of duty on behalf of the forum Merl was the recipient of the very first "Highly Coveted Standing Ovation Duncan Award" -


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