# Castrations roles today - countertenors or mezzos?



## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Sorry the title should read ‘Castrato roles today’ but my computer spell check decided to alter it in its wisdom and there appears no way of editing the title. If one of the moderators could change it I would be glad


With the (rightful) extinction of castrati, it is a choice (at least in Handel) whether to have a female mezzo or countertenor in the role as fortunately for our castrato-less age, Handel preferred to wrote for an alto-ranged castrato. Interestingly even in Handel’s day there were falsettists posing as castratos. One named Tenducci even fathered children! Handel even performed his works, like Joad in Athalia, with a countertenor. So which do you prefer in a role which might come nearest to what a singer like Senesino might have sounded like - countertenor or mezzo?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

My preference is for a wonderful and expressive voice.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

I confess to a problem with the castrato voice. Believe me I've tried. My loss I guess.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> I confess to a problem with the castrato voice. Believe me I've tried. My loss I guess.


Your user ID suggests that this is not intended as a pun.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Just happened to come across this interesting program on YouTube


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

That is interesting, although knowing the context, watching the opening moments of a sharpened knife have an unexpected result. Here is the second part of the documentary:






And near the end, they do play an attempt to recreate a castrato voice, although they admit that it might not be fully realized (and there isn't really anything against which to compare it since the recording of the last official castrato loses much of the range).


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

In general I prefer a mezzo as usually that means a richer tone. However, there are some countertenors that are better artists than some mezzos. There is quite a bit of difference in tone between a very good countertenor and a very good mezzo and whilst we can't know what the castrati sounded like in Handel's day, I think the mezzo voice sounds closer to what is described as the sound of the castrati (and that is backed up when listening to the few recordings of the last castrato).

N.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Other than Christine Goerke or Jamie Barton,the other artists today I would love to hear would be countertenors Franco Fagioli or David Hansen live.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Interesting that Rene Jacobs argues on his notes here:









That the mezzo is more successful than the falsettist.

Btw this recording contains the most jaw dropping display of singing! If this is what Farinelli sounded anything like no wonder people used to faint!


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

The Conte said:


> In general I prefer a mezzo as usually that means a richer tone. However, there are some countertenors that are better artists than some mezzos. There is quite a bit of difference in tone between a very good countertenor and a very good mezzo and whilst we can't know what the castrati sounded like in Handel's day, I think the mezzo voice sounds closer to what is described as the sound of the castrati (and that is backed up when listening to the few recordings of the last castrato).
> 
> N.


The male soprano Radu Marian is the closest in timbre I've heard to any of Moreschi's old recordings. It is so similar that I can only assume Marian knows the old record? 









Turning to Handel, the effect is pretty uncanny





I'm not sure I've heard any counter-tenors sound quite like that. I tend to prefer mezzos in any case, such as Marilyn Horne, even though there is admittedly a big difference in her sound from these male soprano examples


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Revitalized Classics said:


> The male soprano Radu Marian is the closest in timbre I've heard to any of Moreschi's old recordings. It is so similar that I can only assume Marian knows the old record?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"Uncanny" is one word for it...

Radu Marian sounds like a fifteen-year-old girl who needs to find a voice teacher and, probably, get laid (but not necessarily by the voice teacher). This sort of thing belongs on Moldova's Got Talent, where the audience can gasp in disbelief and the judges can get all weepy before awarding the prize to the guy who can fart melodies.


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> "Uncanny" is one word for it...
> 
> Radu Marian sounds like a fifteen-year-old girl who needs to find a voice teacher and, probably, get laid (but not necessarily by the voice teacher). This sort of thing belongs on Moldova's Got Talent, where the audience can gasp in disbelief and the judges can get all weepy before awarding the prize to the guy who can fart melodies.


You are right about his musicality, but what are the odds of finding an example with a similar medical history who also happens to be a great musician?

I singled out the _timbre_ of Radu Marian's voice since I had not heard anything else which reminded me so much of Moreschi and particularly what I take to be Moreschi's tiny little speaking voice "grazie" at the end of this tape c. 2m22 





There's every chance Radu Marian's voice isn't as peculiar as I thought and there are better examples... Perhaps I should get out more? there is a whole world of Moldovan melody-farters out there that I have somehow missed


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

JAS said:


> Your user ID suggests that this is not intended as a pun.


I'll never tell.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

I don't like countertenor singing, sorry. A good contralto or mezzo sounds so much better to me.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

I was listening to this ...






... when I visited the forum. It's beautiful, like so much music written for the castrato - and Cencic's voice is sublime. I tend not to collect individual singers - except for the modern countertenors - Cencic, Fagioli, Jaroussky, Orlinski. Like Seattleoperafan, these are singers I would love to hear live. (And Bartoli.)


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

They also show Michael Maniaci on the program which may be something like what Senesino etc sounded like


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Handelian said:


> They also show Michael Maniaci on the program which may be something like what Senesino etc sounded like


This is quite a different sound from the usual countertenors we hear.

N.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

The Conte said:


> This is quite a different sound from the usual countertenors we hear.
> 
> N.


He is actually a male soprano. He is not singing falsetto. That is his natural singing voice. Apparently his vocal chords did not develop during puberty.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Handelian said:


> He is actually a male soprano. He is not singing falsetto. That is his natural singing voice. Apparently his vocal chords did not develop during puberty.


So a natural 'castrato', it makes sense (and he sounds more like a mezzo than a countertenor to my ear).

N.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

How is his Mozart CD?


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

The Conte said:


> So a natural 'castrato', it makes sense (and he sounds more like a mezzo than a countertenor to my ear).
> 
> N.


Yes there was also a jazz singer on there whose voice had never broken


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## Dick Johnson (Apr 14, 2020)

Another vote for the countertenors. Many of the roles for castrati were quite virile - e.g. Alessandro, Arminio, Cesare, Ottone. A male voice just sounds more natural to me in these roles. This is true when listening to a recording but is especially true when watching the opera. Furthermore, we are experiencing a great renaissance of countertenor voices at the moment. Cencic, Sabata, Fagioli, Jaroussky, Davies, Scholl, etc., etc. Would listen to any of these over the best mezzo in drag - at least for Handel.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

It depends on the role and the singer, of course, and the original casting is not terribly relevant. 

One of my best operatic memories was a performance of Xerxes in Boston with mezzo Lorraine Hunt as Xerxes and countertenor David Daniels as Arsamene. It mattered not that the creator of the role of Xerxes was a castrato and the original Arsamene was a female contralto.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

wkasimer said:


> It depends on the role and the singer, of course, and the original casting is not terribly relevant.
> 
> One of my best operatic memories was a performance of Xerxes in Boston with mezzo Lorraine Hunt as Xerxes and countertenor David Daniels as Arsamene. It mattered not that the creator of the role of Xerxes was a castrato and the original Arsamene was a female contralto.


I saw Daniels before the scandal and I really loved him in concert. Gorgeous, mezzo sounding voice with power to fill the house. He was a real star. Full of charisma and artistry. He could likely have gone 10 more years easily if not for his downfall.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I saw Daniels before the scandal and I really loved him in concert. Gorgeous, mezzo sounding voice with power to fill the house. He was a real star. Full of charisma and artistry. He could likely have gone 10 more years easily if not for his downfall.


Daniels is one of the few countertenors I really enjoy. His tone has unusual depth and sensuousness, and he seems able to get more expressive nuance into his singing than most. Among others, I can't but be impressed by the spectacular Fagioli. On the whole, though, I can do without this voice category. Heretical it may be, but I'm perfectly content that Caesar was transposed for bass Norman Treigle when he and Sills did _Giulio Cesare._


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Woodduck said:


> Daniels is one of the few countertenors I really enjoy. His tone has unusual depth and sensuousness, and he seems able to get more expressive nuance into his singing than most. Among others, I can't but be impressed by the spectacular Fagioli. On the whole, though, I can do without this voice category. Heretical it may be, but I'm perfectly content that Caesar was transposed for bass Norman Treigle when he and Sills did _Giulio Cesare._


Not heretical. You just miss the brilliance of Handel's writing with a bass.


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## Taplow (Aug 13, 2017)

Meyerbeer Smith said:


> I tend not to collect individual singers - except for the modern countertenors - Cencic, Fagioli, Jaroussky, Orlinski. Like Seattleoperafan, these are singers I would love to hear live. (And Bartoli.)


You've certainly got good taste. I have heard most of these live, and here provide my (unsophisticated and, most likely unwanted) opinion:

*Fagioli* (Mr Beans) - Stunning when he was much younger and his career starting out. (Giulio Cesare, Oslo, 2007) Clear, crisp, agile. Today, on stage, he sounds pretty much like a dozen other countertenors to my ear. (Agrippina, Munich, 2019) Nonetheless, still a good operatic actor and a pleasure to watch. Would not avoid.

*Cencic* - Only heard him live once. (Monteverdi's L'Incoronazione in Berlin in 2017). Super, super impressed with both his voice and his professionalism. Never really grabbed me on disc, but loved him in this. Fought a very valiant battle against the acoustics of the Staatsoper unter den Linden, and almost won! Good tone. Stronger in middle to upper range than lower. Definitely looking forward to seeing him more.

*Jarrousky* - One of the few countertenors who can hold his own against orchestra and ensemble alike, and stand out above them. I've also only seen him once (Alcina, Salzburg 2019), but I was very impressed. I approached this performance with some trepidation. I love his recordings but can only listen to them so much before I am overwhelmed by the somewhat sickly-sweet cloyingness of his silky tones. Not so on stage. He's mellower and more natural-sounding in a way, while still rising clearly above the fray. Would love to see more of him live. An ok actor, too.

*Bartoli* - Love, love, love her! (At least in female roles). The only time I've seen her singing a male role was as the titular character in Handel's Ariodante (also in Salzburg, 2017). Again, approached with some hesitation. Wasn't too sure about seeing her in pants, but OMFG! Stunning. I pretty much had tears of pure bliss anad joy running down my cheeks from one end of this production to the other. Next to the Giulio Cesare with Fagioli put on by Den Norske Opera in Oslo (2007, mentioned above), hands down one of my most memorable opera experiences. I've seen her sing live twice now and can't wait for the next opportunity, pants or no pants (but preferably some sort of lower body covering).

Also in the Agrippina was *Iestyn Davies*, whom I was very much looking forward to hearing after only seeing (but not hearing due to illness) him in the Chrisopher Alden production of Midsummer Night's Dream at the ENO in 2011. Sadly unimpressed. Nice voice but insufficient power to be effectively heard above the orchestra, ensemble, and activity on stage. Also not a terribly convincing actor. Was impressed, however, with *Christophe Dumaux* as Polinesso in the Ariodante. Would like to see/hear him some more.

As to the question of the thread. I much prefer to see male singers in male roles wherever possible. I do generally like the countertenor voice, but there are few artists who, for me, truly rise to the occasion. On disc, it's a little bit different. There sound, rather than looks, is paramount. I still prefer the _idea_ of a male singer in a male role, but will bend my stiff resolve when the voice is convincing enough that I can _believe_ I am hearing a man. Few female singers can do this. Jennifer Larmore is one, along with a definite yes for Nathalie Stutzmann. Joyce diDonato, as much as I love her, not so much.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Handelian said:


> Not heretical. You just miss the brilliance of Handel's writing with a bass.


It's OK. There's plenty of brilliant Handel to be had. Julius Caesar was no eunuch.

BTW, I'm reminded of Wagner's response when asked whether Parsifal was supposed to represent Christ. "What? Christ a tenor? Pfui!"


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

Handelian said:


> Interestingly even in Handel's day there were falsettists posing as castratos. One named Tenducci even fathered children!


Even though Tenducci (aka Senesino) claimed to have fathered two children by his wife, Dora Maunsell, the actual paternity of their children is a subject for speculation. According to Casanova, who met Tenducci two years before the singer met his future wife, Tenducci "laughed at people who said that a castrato could not procreate. He was born triorchis, and as only two of the seminal glands had been destroyed the remaining one was sufficient to endow him with virility." However, Dora eventually had their marriage annulled "by reason of impotency" after testimony from Tenducci's friends which included some precise clinical details, and there was no mention of children. It is thought that the two children may have been fathered by William Kingsman, who Dora met during one of her husband's absences and married shortly after her divorce from Tenducci.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Woodduck said:


> It's OK. There's plenty of brilliant Handel to be had. Julius Caesar was no eunuch.
> 
> BTW, I'm reminded of Wagner's response when asked whether Parsifal was supposed to represent Christ. "What? Christ a tenor? Pfui!"


Just to point out that Handel's Julius Caesar is not historical. A bit like Braveheart!


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

RICK RIEKERT said:


> Even though Tenducci (aka Senesino) claimed to have fathered two children by his wife, Dora Maunsell, the actual paternity of their children is a subject for speculation. According to Casanova, who met Tenducci two years before the singer met his future wife, Tenducci "laughed at people who said that a castrato could not procreate. He was born triorchis, and as only two of the seminal glands had been destroyed the remaining one was sufficient to endow him with virility." However, Dora eventually had their marriage annulled "by reason of impotency" after testimony from Tenducci's friends which included some precise clinical details, and there was no mention of children. It is thought that the two children may have been fathered by William Kingsman, who Dora met during one of her husband's absences and married shortly after her divorce from Tenducci.


Just to note that Tenducci is not to be confused with Francesco Bernardi, "Senesino" par excellence.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Handelian said:


> Just to point out that Handel's Julius Caesar is not historical. A bit like Braveheart!


Sarah Connolly does the role well at Glyndebourne on my DVDs


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Taplow said:


> You've certainly got good taste. I have heard most of these live, and here provide my (unsophisticated and, most likely unwanted) opinion:
> 
> *Fagioli* (Mr Beans) - Stunning when he was much younger and his career starting out. (Giulio Cesare, Oslo, 2007) Clear, crisp, agile. Today, on stage, he sounds pretty much like a dozen other countertenors to my ear. (Agrippina, Munich, 2019) Nonetheless, still a good operatic actor and a pleasure to watch. Would not avoid.
> 
> ...


Did you hear Fagioli live? It sounds big and juicy but recordings can be deceptive. Gorgeous voice but is hard to watch his weird facial movements.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Did you hear Fagioli live? It sounds big and juicy but recordings can be deceptive. Gorgeous voice but is hard to watch his weird facial movements.


How about a grimacing match between Fagioli and Cecilia Bartoli?


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

If I can be forgiven for making a joke, I suspect that there will be fewer roles for castrati once Trump is out of office (due to oversupply).


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

JAS said:


> If I can be forgiven for making a joke, I suspect that there will be fewer roles for castrati once Trump is out of office (due to oversupply).


And some of them were castrated by tweet.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> And some of them were castrated by tweet.


And by something that is not particularly sharp. I wonder how many might seek a career in singing, so to speak.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

JAS said:


> And by something that is not particularly sharp. I wonder how many might seek a career in singing, so to speak.


Many, I hope. It'll be music to my ears. So to speak.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> Daniels is one of the few countertenors I really enjoy. His tone has unusual depth and sensuousness, and he seems able to get more expressive nuance into his singing than most. Among others, I can't but be impressed by the spectacular Fagioli. On the whole, though, I can do without this voice category. Heretical it may be, but I'm perfectly content that Caesar was transposed for bass Norman Treigle when he and Sills did _Giulio Cesare._


Or just have a mezzo or contralto sing the role. There aren't enough roles for contraltos, or maybe there aren't enough contraltos to sing the roles.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

adriesba said:


> Or just have a mezzo or contralto sing the role. There aren't enough roles for contraltos, or maybe there aren't enough contraltos to sing the roles.


I prefer to have male characters look and sound like men. That goes double for emperors (unless they're supposed to be degenerate weenies). Not many female actors or singers can carry this off. A very few countertenors would be satisfactory, I guess.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

adriesba said:


> Or just have a mezzo or contralto sing the role. There aren't enough roles for contraltos, or maybe there aren't enough contraltos to sing the roles.


A true contralto, like Ewa Podles, is very, very rare. There a a lot of mezzos but few can handle the lower tessitura of contralto. Ponselle could have done it with her great lower extension, but they weren't doing those operas then and she chose to sing soprano.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

JAS said:


> If I can be forgiven for making a joke, I suspect that there will be fewer roles for castrati once Trump is out of office (due to oversupply).


Oh my! Have you seen the mob who are coming into office? As one commentator said: 'Back to the political aristocracy. The blue-bloods are back!'


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Handelian said:


> Oh my! Have you seen the mob who are coming into office? As one commentator said: 'Back to the political aristocracy. The blue-bloods are back!'


Because people in the current administration aren't wealthy people from elite backgrounds . . . . please.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

JAS said:


> Because people in the current administration aren't wealthy people from elite backgrounds . . . . please.


You surely realise that putting the uncouth Trump in the White House was just a reaction of working-class people against the political elite in America. Just like the Brexit vote in England was a reaction against the political elite over here. Of course Trump overplayed his hand during the pandemic but considering all the establishment media were against him came remarkably close to a second term. We don't realise sometime how sick ordinary people are of the political establishment. If it hadn't been for the pandemic Trump would have walked a 2nd term. Even with it he came close. But leave it there as I don't want to derail this thread


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> I prefer to have male characters look and sound like men. That goes double for emperors (unless they're supposed to be degenerate weenies). Not many female actors or singers can carry this off. A very few countertenors would be satisfactory, I guess.


Yes, I would have preferred that the roles were simply written differently in the first place. But I'd take any voice type over a countertenor. Countertenors are a big reason that I've largely avoided Baroque opera.


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## DjPooChoo (Apr 13, 2017)

Handelian said:


> You surely realise that putting the uncouth Trump in the White House was just a reaction of working-class people against the political elite in America. Just like the Brexit vote in England was a reaction against the political elite over here. Of course Trump overplayed his hand during the pandemic but considering all the establishment media were against him came remarkably close to a second term. We don't realise sometime how sick ordinary people are of the political establishment. If it hadn't been for the pandemic Trump would have walked a 2nd term. Even with it he came close. But leave it there as I don't want to derail this thread


So you come on here, actively engage in derailing it further and then say to leave it there _after_ you have the last word?

What kind of nonsense is this? :lol:


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

adriesba said:


> Yes, I would have preferred that the roles were simply written differently in the first place. But I'd take any voice type over a countertenor. Countertenors are a big reason that I've largely avoided Baroque opera.


You really needed to tell Handel & co that.mind you, Handel was not averse to using a mezzo if a castrato was not available.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Handelian said:


> You really needed to tell Handel & co that.mind you, Handel was not averse to using a mezzo if a castrato was not available.


Baroque opera had women playing men, Elizabethan theater had boys playing women...

It's kind of postmodern, isn't it? Questioning gender hierarchies, celebrating nonbinary identities, dismantling patriarchal structures of privilege and oppression...

Opera is so woke!


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> Baroque opera had women playing men, Elizabethan theater had boys playing women...
> 
> It's kind of postmodern, isn't it? Questioning gender hierarchies, celebrating nonbinary identities, dismantling patriarchal structures of privilege and oppression...
> 
> Opera is so woke!


If only the woke people saw it that way and started demanding more opera productions.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BachIsBest said:


> If only the woke people saw it that way and started demanding more opera productions.


I think they're the people demanding that Carmen kill Don Jose instead of the other way around.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

BachIsBest said:


> If only the woke people saw it that way and started demanding more opera productions.


The woke movement won't do that as they aren't interested in buiding, only dismantling and destroying.

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> The woke movement won't do that as they aren't interested in buiding, only dismantling and destroying.
> 
> N.


Now, now! Keep it light!


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Woodduck said:


> Baroque opera had women playing men, Elizabethan theater had boys playing women...
> 
> It's kind of postmodern, isn't it? Questioning gender hierarchies, celebrating nonbinary identities, dismantling patriarchal structures of privilege and oppression...
> 
> Opera is so woke!


Yes but they did realise men were men and women were women. And the poor souls in between!


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Because the original intent, the main reason why some roles were written for castrati in "opera seria" was to use their unusual voices, their high-pitch and their 'canto fiorito' as a kind of symbol of elevated values. To emphasise their bigger-than-human nature. They could be gods, mythological beings or invincible warriors, mighty kings... The peculiar timbre of the castrato, and the high notes, were the right way, in the mind of many Baroque composers, to underline this nature. Though the singing in falsetto of the countertenor is not exactly the same thing, it nevertheless possess those qualities in a higher degree than a female low fach, in most cases.




Why did Rossini wrote the role of Tancredi for a female alto instead of a castrato?. Apart from the availability of great alto singers like Adelaide Malanotte or Rosmunda Pisaroni, he still felt the need of using a special timbre for the heroic roles, and there were no longer a large number of castrati around.




So, using countertenors for Baroque Opera, is an informed and, in my view, appropriate decision.




Then again, personal tastes are ... well, personal. Nothing wrong with that. If someone dislikes the countertenor voice, just look for another option.


Of course, apart from Baroque, countertenors are also often present in contemporary opera.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I don't have a dislike of countertenors in general and I like them in music written especially for them. I also don't mind them in Handel and I'm quite happy to see or listen to performances of his operas with them in. Whilst there are some excellent countertenors around, their voices tend to be smaller than mezzos (which isn't surprising since they are singing with a different technique if they are falsettists). Handel wrote for castrati because they not only had high voices, but they were bigger and more resonant than female ones. Since in general countertenors have smaller voices than mezzos (on average, of course), casting mezzos in these roles usually means that we end up with something closer to the castrato sound (as far as we can know). 

On the other hand, since the roles were written to be performed by men, then it makes sense for them to be cast that way today. Could it partly be a case of whether you think the visual aspect of opera is more important than that which the audience hears?

N.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

I note the body of Farinelli has been subject to the ghoulish enquiries of scientists who have exhumed it for examination:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3222842/

Apparently he was very tall for the day (6'3") and contemporary reports of his stage actions say he was very clumsy. When he started singing, however, it was another matter!


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Handelian said:


> I note the body of Farinelli has been subject to the ghoulish enquiries of scientists who have exhumed it for examination:
> 
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3222842/
> 
> Apparently he was very tall for the day (6'3") and contemporary reports of his stage actions say he was very clumsy. When he started singing, however, it was another matter!


Oh my, there was anything left?! That's kind creepy.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

adriesba said:


> Oh my, there was anything left?! That's kind creepy.


Apparently his grave was only recently discovered. I would have thought they would have let the poor guy RIP


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## Dick Johnson (Apr 14, 2020)

Handelian said:


> You really needed to tell Handel & co that.mind you, Handel was not averse to using a mezzo if a castrato was not available.


The Met production of Cesare (same production as Glyndbourne with a different cast) had countertenor David Daniels as Cesare. Interesting to compare the two since they are the same production - but one with a mezzo and one with a countertenor. I suppose its a matter of personal preference, but I prefer David Daniels in the role:


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Dick Johnson said:


> The Met production of Cesare (same production as Glyndbourne with a different cast) had countertenor David Daniels as Cesare. Here is Va Tacito with David Daniels at the Met. Interesting to compare the two since they are the same production - but one with a mezzo and one with a countertenor. I suppose its a matter of personal preference, but I prefer David Daniels in the role:


Interesting. Fascinating to know who was most like Senesino. Reports of him that as with many castrati, his acting were not always positive, to say the least. The impresario Count Francesco Zambeccari wrote of his performance in Naples in 1715: "Senesino continues to comport himself badly enough; he stands like a statue, and when occasionally he does make a gesture, he makes one directly the opposite of what is wanted." Of the singer's vocal abilities, apparently, there was no doubt. In 1719, the composer Quantz heard him in Lotti's Teofane at Dresden, and stated: "He had a powerful, clear, equal and sweet contralto voice, with a perfect intonation and an excellent shake. His manner of singing was masterly and his elocution unrivalled. … he sang allegros with great fire, and marked rapid divisions, from the chest, in an articulate and pleasing manner. His countenance was well adapted to the stage, and his action was natural and noble. To these qualities he joined a majestic figure; but his aspect and deportment were more suited to the part of a hero than of a lover."
It is also interesting to compare the two acoustics. Natalie Dessay as recorded at the Met sounds nothing like she does in Paris or on the recordings she made as Cleopatra


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Handelian said:


> I note the body of Farinelli has been subject to the ghoulish enquiries of scientists who have exhumed it for examination:
> 
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3222842/
> 
> Apparently he was very tall for the day (6'3") and contemporary reports of his stage actions say he was very clumsy. When he started singing, however, it was another matter!


According to some, the limbs of a castrato were often elongated by the castration and the head could become uncommonly large in adulthood. My source is not unimpeachable: Anne Rice's book about a castrato, *Cry to Heaven*. I suppose she has done some reasearch...


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

MAS said:


> According to some, the limbs of a castrato were often elongated by the castration and the head could become uncommonly large. My source is not unimpeachable: Anne Rice's book about a castrato, *Cry to Heaven*. I suppose she has done some reasearch...


I read that! Loved it!!!! 24 years ago about I guess.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

MAS said:


> According to some, the limbs of a castrato were often elongated by the castration and the head could become uncommonly large in adulthood. My source is not unimpeachable: Anne Rice's book about a castrato, *Cry to Heaven*. I suppose she has done some reasearch...


Also, of great importance, their chest bones never stopped growing. One assumes the lungs kept up with that and they could have almost infinite breath control.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

I tend to prefer mezzo for operatic lead roles, counter for church music. But there are excellent counters today who sing beautifully, which is what matters.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Also, of great importance, their chest bones never stopped growing. One assumes the lungs kept up with that and they could have almost infinite breath control.


It is said that Farinelli could keep the phrase going for well over a minute without taking a breath


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I have a twisted mind sometime and wonder if it were more known about in popular pre teen culture if there would be, in addition to gender dysmorphic people changing gender, if there might be middle school males who wanted to be "fixed" so they could have a chance to be a Farinelli today. I think it is just the likely rarity of interest in such things by middle school males that has kept someone from trying to do it. I am glad to be a full male, but I have always missed my stratospheric voice I had at 15. I could sing along with Callas.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

As ArtMusic says, for some reason, I just can’t get used to hearing countertenors in dramatic roles, though I am not at all averse to the voice type and in fact count myself a great admirer of several (Deller, Esswood, Chance, Blaze, Mera off the top of my head). In Bach’s vocal works I tend to prefer countertenors to mezzos/altos, but something about the “castrato” voice type (like Derek Lee Ragin, who is probably the highest countertenor I have heard even though there are surely higher ones out there somewhere) rubs me the wrong way in opera, where I am supposed to visualize a character rather than just hearing someone sing and inflect text for its own sake. Somehow I hear it as farcical when it shouldn’t be.

But then, maybe the casting of skilled countertenors in castrato roles makes more of a proper dramatic effect. I mean, in Handel for example. I love to hear beautiful mezzos like Janet Baker as much as anyone. But is that really the kind of voice that is able to realistically characterize Nero and Julius Caesar, who were far from beautiful personalities? The countertenor voice has a certain roughness to it that can maybe lend more credibility to such morally callous characters. But my ears tell me otherwise, as I admit to prioritizing sheer beauty of sound in singers slightly more than I do with orchestras even though it’s still not make-or-break for me.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Handelian said:


> countertenors


this is the only time I prefer them:


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I have a twisted mind sometime and wonder if it were more known about in popular pre teen culture if there would be, in addition to gender dysmorphic people changing gender, if there might be middle school males who wanted to be "fixed" so they could have a chance to be a Farinelli today. I think it is just the likely rarity of interest in such things by middle school males that has kept someone from trying to do it. I am glad to be a full male, but I have always missed my stratospheric voice I had at 15. I could sing along with Callas.


This is a thought provoking comment. The issue, of course, would be whether someone so young could ever consent to the necessary operation. In the UK at present someone under the age of 16 can't consent to measures that are likely to lead to a loss of fertility, so I don't think we are going to see this happen.

In the future (although we are unlikely to live long enough to see it) it may be possible to synthetically produce a similar sound via technologies, some of which don't exist at present.

N.


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## Elvira0518 (Mar 1, 2021)

I definitely prefer countertenors. Partially because I like the roles to be gender accurate. Doesn't matter if it's an audio recording or a video, but a video especially.


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