# Remastering available ? Beethoven Karajan 1980s cycle



## mavm (Jun 20, 2020)

I note from forum threads here and from Amazon reviews that remastered versions of the Karajan 1960s and 1977 Beethoven cycles are available (one even on Blu-Ray), and many listeners find the sound quality markedly improved.

I own a number of CDs from the original 1980s Karajan cycle and am hoping there's a remastered version of that DDD cycle out there with better sonics. I've had no luck putting various combinations of search terms into google so far, just a lot of hits on the 1960 and 1977 remasterings.

Any forum member that can help? 

Either a stereo or surround (remastered) version would be great news for me.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

The only thing I know from the top of my head is this one:

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8056303--beethoven-symphonies-nos-5-9
other shop available


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## Guest (Jun 20, 2020)

Karajan's Beethoven cycle from the 80's was first remastered for the "Karajan Gold" series in the 1990s. The releases looked like this:










Subsequent releases tended to sound like the Karajan Gold edition.

The early digital recordings tended to be particularly dry and bright and the Karajan Gold releases were remixed with more reverberation and a softer tonal balance. I think they sound better. There would be no point in releasing them in high definition, because the original digital recordings were recorded at CD resolution and you can't put back information that wasn't there. Old analog tapes can be mastered at arbitrary high resolution, although you end up reproducing tape hiss with extraordinary fidelity.


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## mavm (Jun 20, 2020)

Thanks for your input Roger and Baron.

Roger's Blu-ray appears to come from 1970s.

So it looks to me like the difference between original and remastered "Karajan Gold" is in the CD cover art, since they both have the same Karajan-Gold icon.









Can't spot any full cycle sets advertised in the later version in my usual haunts.

Not confident about what you'll get when buying a download file rather than a CD.

Also a bit disappointing that DG hasn't had another go at it in 17 years - you'd imagine remastering algorithms should improve substantially every decade, like most other software.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Baron Scarpia said:


> Karajan's Beethoven cycle from the 80's was first remastered for the "Karajan Gold" series in the 1990s. The releases looked like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The original silver box (as the Baron pointed out) is dry and bright but also full of odd balances so it just sounds a bit off but I'd say that wasn't Karajan's fault (as many have said) but reflect way the recording team of Herrmanns and Breest recorded and mixed it. Karajan asked for a mix that would sound really good on CD and reflect "the beauty of the music". Karajan took their word that it was good but was not in good health, still in dispute with the BPO and had taken a back seat for a while according to Glotz. The resultant mix was one that Karajan was not wholly happy with but was assured would be popular. It sold in huge quantities but critics hated it, more for the mixing and recording than the actual performances (except Allmusic who retrospectively ripped it to bits).

The Karajan Gold remasters addressed Herrmanns' and Breest's odd digital balances on a number of the 80s DG recordings (not just the Beethoven) and they sound much better than the originals. I have the Karajan Gold remaster of Holst's Planets and it actually sounds a hundred times better than the original (that I also have).


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

I’ve never heard the 1980s cycle, and I didn’t know that there was one. The Eighties were a lost decade for me in terms of music purchases as I was dead broke and very busy. I never understood why he made a seventies remake, as I thought the sixties cycle was superb and the seventies didn’t add anything. The sixties cycle sounds superb in Blu Ray.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Triplets said:


> I've never heard the 1980s cycle, and I didn't know that there was one. The Eighties were a lost decade for me in terms of music purchases as I was dead broke and very busy. I never understood why he made a seventies remake, as I thought the sixties cycle was superb and the seventies didn't add anything. The sixties cycle sounds superb in Blu Ray.


He was crazy about Technics, he insisted he did it again in the most modern way of recording.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

The Blu-ray Audio Disc format won't make the Karajan Gold Edition sound better, but I wish they'd do it anyway because you can do things like fit the entire _Der Ring des Nibelungen_ on a single disc!

Of course that's pretty much not different than a download of a FLAC or whatever, but all those downloads end up costing in total more than the bloody disc probably would! And as I said elsewhere, and will not be goaded into another argument about, I hate dealing with the metadata, which is always fubar and requires manual editing. HATE. Plus I like the program notes, and some of the DG B-rAD editions have included a ton of neat stuff like old photos and such.


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## mavm (Jun 20, 2020)

Merl said:


> The original silver box (as the Baron pointed out) is dry and bright but also full of odd balances so it just sounds a bit off ............
> ....... I have the Karajan Gold remaster of Holst's Planets and it actually sounds a hundred times better than the original (that I also have).


Thanks Merl and Baron, very good info indeed. I'm going to chase those remasters.

Today I did a quick comparison of about 20 recordings (including Rattle, Abbado, Solti, Wand, Barenboim, Chailly etc., even Gardener, Immerseel and Norrington) of Beethoven symphony no 1.

Yes, sym no 1, and just the first movement.
May not be a Beethoven pinnacle, but I've found it to be a good test - not all that easy to produce a moving account. If a conductor can get through to me with Beethoven 1 then I have some confidence in him.

Karajan's version got me out of my chair and onto my feet. Don't know why; there's just more power and authority in the music.

Some of the gotta-catch-the-bus soon conductors make it sound like clever, foot tapping music. Grab a coffee, join our crowd, smile and tap foot to this uplifting tune.

With Karajan, no pleasantries - sounds more like something of import. 
Don't know why HvK does it for some, while the majority are not fans (though we all dislike the silly rock-star poses). But his conducting floats my Beethoven boat.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Knorf said:


> The Blu-ray Audio Disc format won't make the Karajan Gold Edition sound better, but I wish they'd do it anyway because you can do things like fit the entire _Der Ring des Nibelungen_ on a single disc!
> 
> Of course that's pretty much not different than a download of a FLAC or whatever, but all those downloads end up costing in total more than the bloody disc probably would! And as I said elsewhere, and will not be goaded into another argument about, I hate dealing with the metadata, which is always fubar and requires manual editing. HATE. Plus I like the program notes, and some of the DG B-rAD editions have included a ton of neat stuff like old photos and such.


I have a number of the DG Blu Ray recordings, reissues of their back catalog, and in all cases they are a distinct improvement over the Red Book CDs. The improvements can be heard on both High End and mid fi systems. When they come with the CDs as well as the Blu Ray, I've just been tossing the CDs after burning them to a hard drive


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Triplets said:


> I have a number of the DG Blu Ray recordings, reissues of their back catalog, and in all cases they are a distinct improvement over the Red Book CDs. The improvements can be heard on both High End and mid fi systems. When they come with the CDs as well as the Blu Ray, I've just been tossing the CDs after burning them to a hard drive


Oh, absolutely they really good. Numerous of those recordings have never sounded better in any previous format. But this is mainly because there have been big improvements in the remastering of analog originals, which all of the Blu Ray special editions have been sourced from. It probably has zero to do with the high res format, since the limits of CDs are already past the limits of human hearing. It's the treatment of analogue originals that's improved.

All of Karajan's 80s digital recordings were recorded at 44.1khz 16 bit, so there is mathematically no possibility of any improvement from the Blu Ray format, except for the efficiency of storage angle. The Gold Edition remastering pass fixed all of the original problems, so I really don't see how Blu Ray will add anything else.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Knorf said:


> Oh, absolutely they really good. Numerous of those recordings have never sounded better in any previous format. But this is mainly because there have been big improvements in the remastering of analog originals, which all of the Blu Ray special editions have been sourced from. It probably has zero to do with the high res format, since the limits of CDs are already past the limits of human hearing. It's the treatment of analogue originals that's improved.
> 
> All of Karajan's 80s digital recordings were recorded at 44.1khz 16 bit, so there is mathematically no possibility of any improvement from the Blu Ray format, except for the efficiency of storage angle. The Gold Edition remastering pass fixed all of the original problems, so I really don't see how Blu Ray will add anything else.


Most people have long realized that the arbitrary limits imposed on CD resolution has been a limit to good sound, regardless of what the so called limits of human hearing are. Hall ambience, decay, space between instruments, all can be more clearly appreciated on the Blu Rays that accompany the CDs. And, as you mention, they are a heck of a lot easier to store


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Triplets said:


> Most people have long realized that the arbitrary limits imposed on CD resolution has been a limit to good sound, regardless of what the so called limits of human hearing are.


I'm sorry, but, no. This is not correct. Things we cannot hear do not have an audible effect on what we can. "Many people realized" is a logical fallacy, not an argument.

I have plenty of CDs that sound as good or better than the best Blu-ray Audio Discs I have, as much as I love the format. And blind testing has proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that even trained professional musicians like me can not tell the difference between 44.1 khz 16 bit and _any_ higher resolution format of the same recording. A little Google searching will prove my point.

Regardless of any of that, the Karajan Gold Edition was recorded at 44.1 khz 16 bit. That "enhance" cliché you see in lazy Hollywood writing? Not possible. You cannot put back in information where it doesn't exist. There is no possibility of making the Karajan digital recordings better by putting them on a Blu-ray Audio Disc in itself. It might be possible to have a remaster that sounds better, a new mix or a new method of transferring from the digital original, but frankly the Karajan Gold Edition CDs sound _absolutely fantastic_.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

The Remastered digital 80s set is also available in this box (which I have). Its a much improved recording than on the original set. You should listen to it.


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