# Classical Music and Philosophy



## LandsOfEntropia (Sep 8, 2015)

Hi All. 

My glaring lack of knowledge of classical music was thoroughly showcased the other day, when I was reading through "Thus spoke Zarathustra" by Nietzsche and it came to my attention that Strauss had made a piece based on the book. I was delighted at the discovery and very much looking forward to hear his musical treatment of the themes.

Strauss' opus 30 "Also Sprach Zarathustra" of course turned out to be the opening theme of my much beloved 2001: A Space Odyssey; and now almost a satirical stable of commercials, cartoons, spoofs, and pseudo science-fiction. 

Joke's on me for not doing my research, i suppose, but it got me thinking:

Are there other notable instances of composers drawing inspiration directly from, or indeed composing for, philosophical works such as with Strauss and Nietzsche? Of particular interest would be outside of opera, where this juxtaposition of music and literature is more commonplace, but all input will be appreciated.

Thank you in advance.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

I hope the religion trolls don't hijack this thread


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2015)

Can I offer you a pamphlet?


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

In Beethoven's Ninth, he was espousing a kind of 'philosophy' which may have been influenced by Masonic ideas, which were more flexible in the conception of God. It seems he was appealing to "everyman" in the finale, as in "we are all one."
I think Mahler did the same thing in that big behemoth symphony of his. It was a "cosmopolitan" idea of God that was going around. There was renewed interest in Sanskrit and Indian scriptures, like the Bahgavad Gita.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

There's a piece by Bernstein based on Plato's symposium. I've never heard it, I hope it has a setting of when Alcibiades pops up. And Aristophanes's creation story could be fun in music -- the desire and pursuit of the whole.

(Anyone enjoy Corvo's book?)

Monteverdi's Poppea has a wonderful scene with Senecca expounding stoicism.

Eric Satie has something called Socrate, "drame symphonique en trois parties sur des dialogues de Platon." Again I've never heard it.

But best of all is this glorious setting of Wittgenstein's Tractatus


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Mozart was a Freemason. He wrote the "Masonic Funeral Music" and Freemason rituals permeate his opera the Magic Flute.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

brotagonist said:


> I hope the religion trolls *don't* hijack this thread


Where you say 'don't' I read 'do'. :angel:


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Steve Reich wrote a piece setting one line from Wittgenstein:


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

LandsOfEntropia said:


> Hi All.
> 
> Are there other notable instances of composers drawing inspiration directly from, or indeed composing for, philosophical works such as with Strauss and Nietzsche? Of particular interest would be outside of opera, where this juxtaposition of music and literature is more commonplace, but all input will be appreciated.
> 
> Thank you in advance.


Well, in the "all input" category, Delius wrote a Mass of Life based on Zarathustra.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

On the subject of Nietzsche's Zarathustra, I will predictably add that Mahler set a short text from it in the fourth movement of his Third Symphony.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

LandsOfEntropia said:


> Are there other notable instances of composers drawing inspiration directly from, or indeed composing for, philosophical works such as with Strauss and Nietzsche? Of particular interest would be outside of opera, where this juxtaposition of music and literature is more commonplace, but all input will be appreciated.
> 
> Thank you in advance.


The Alpine Symphony, another cooperation of Strauss and Nietzsche.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Samuel Barber composed an orchestral/choral work called 'Prayers of Kierkegaard' (funnily enough, op. 30 like Strauss's ASZ). but the four texts are based on Søren Kierkegaard the theologian rather than anything else.


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

brotagonist said:


> I hope the religion trolls don't hijack this thread


The very first reply on this thread and it's about religion. How odd. 
that said, not sure I entirely accept an artificial divide between religion and philosophy. Their concerns properly overlap.


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

isorhythm said:


> Steve Reich wrote a piece setting one line from Wittgenstein:


I'd never come across this piece. Thank you very much for drawing it to our attention. Fascinating.


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> There's a piece by Bernstein based on Plato's symposium. I've never heard it, I hope it has a setting of when Alcibiades pops up. And Aristophanes's creation story could be fun in music -- the desire and pursuit of the whole.
> 
> (Anyone enjoy Corvo's book?)
> 
> ...


What a hoot! Can you explain what is going on?


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## Eriks (Oct 10, 2021)

Telemann wrote an opera called “the patient Socrates” (Der Geduldige Socrates); I doubt it is particularly philosophical though - probably more of a comedy. But at least it has Socrates in the title.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Jean-Jacques Rousseau is a philosopher who actually wrote an opera _Le divin du village_ in line with some of his theories concerning simplicity and moving away from the artificialities of civilization. He was also involved in quarrels which spilled over onto the stage of the Paris Opera, with Rameau in particular.


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

Kate Soper's recent work _Ipsa Dixit_ for soprano, flute, violin, and percussion is set to texts based on Plato, Aristotle, and Wittgenstein among others. According to the program note, "_Ipsa Dixit_ is an evening-length work of chamber music theatre that explores the tantalizingly convoluted intersections of music, language, and meaning through a deep interweaving of music and text, complex instrumental textures, contemporary vocal techniques, and blistering ensemble virtuosity."


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

LandsOfEntropia said:


> Hi All.
> 
> My glaring lack of knowledge of classical music was thoroughly showcased the other day, when I was reading through "Thus spoke Zarathustra" by Nietzsche and it came to my attention that Strauss had made a piece based on the book. I was delighted at the discovery and very much looking forward to hear his musical treatment of the themes.
> 
> ...


Cornelius Cardew's Treatise was, according to Cardew, inspired by Wittgenstein's Tractatus -- or rather by Cardew's very specific reading of Wittgenstein's early project.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Laurence Crane's four Derrida pieces were, I am told, somehow inspired by narrative ruptures in the eponymous philosopher's parody Signéponge


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Louis Andreissen's Der Stadt is somehow inspired by something to do with Plato's Republic


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Bernhard Lang assures us that his enormous Monadology series is based on not only (and not surprisingly) something he thinks he found in Leibniz, but also some idea which was inspired by his reading of Deluze.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Just fyi: De Staat is Dutch for The State. It is not called Der Stadt, which is German for The City.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Of course, philosophy comes in many shapes and forms. Philosophy is not just a set of principles outlined by one of various "heavy" thinkers, as is the way I first encountered the discipline in PHIL 101 as a college freshman. Philosophers come in a variety of guises, including as poets, novelists, religious leaders, gurus and composers. In fact, the opening mention in this thread is to a novel, _Also Sprach Zarathustra_. We may think of Nietzsche abstractly as a "philosopher", but in essence he was a wordsmith, a novelist mainly, whose "philosophical" thoughts were rendered not so much in the way of "a book of principles", but in a fictional story. Philosophy has long been rendered in such a way, from ancient times. Homer, Aeschylus, Sophocles, Euripides, Virgil and Dante were not so much just writers as they were philosophers. So, I would count a number of the great ancient literary texts in the realm of philosophy, and musical settings of those stories, philosophical pronouncements.

_Oedipus Rex_, the famed play by Sophocles, is philosophical in its presentation of "fate" as a governing causation. So is the Old English epic _Beowulf_. There are a number of fine settings of the Oedipus story, including one by Stravinsky and one by Orff, as well as the lesser known "Symphonic Prologue To _King Oedipus_ By Sophocles", Op. 11, by Max Von Schillings and _Oedipus Tyrannus_, Op.35 (Prelude) by John Knowles Paine. I would highly recommend Howard Hanson's _Lament For Beowulf _as an example of the second.

To continue this argument, one will find philosophical positions in many of the great operas. Mozart's _Marriage of Figaro_ is a notable example, presenting a philosophical position on the 18th century social rank system, and Beethoven's _Fidelio_ philosophizes upon the meaning of "liberty" or "freedom". Certainly Beethoven's _Eroica _Symphony can be listened to as a philosophical tract. In fact, I have long considered music to be a form of philosophy, one in which the principles are rendered via sound rather than words. Just as one can extract a philosophical position from a _verbal_ story line, one should be able to do so from a _musical_ story line.

When one considers purely musical works that have been "banned" by various governments, one may suspect that it is the philosophical thrust of the work that terrifies, not the tonal structure, orchestration, rhythms or harmonies. One might look to Shostakovich here. What was so frightening about the composer's Fourth Symphony? We might find objections in the text based _Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk_, or the Symphonies 13 (_Babi Yar_) and 14, but the Fourth is a purely orchestral work, yet it apparently proved dangerous, which argues that it takes a philosophical position which ran counter to that of the Soviet government's.

So, perhaps we needn't strain for "philosophical based musical works" and simply take a closer listen to the masterworks with which we all have some familiarity: the symphonies of Beethoven, of Berlioz, of Schumann, of Bruckner, of Tchaikovsky..., operas by Wagner, Verdi, Puccini, Berg ..., the string quartets of late Haydn, of Beethoven and Bartok and Shostakovich ..., the piano music of Schubert, Liszt, Chopin, Scriabin, Boulez....

And the niftiest thing of all is: you don't have to worry about taking one of those danged philosophy tests and getting a bad grade. At least I don't.


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

This subject is dense. Beethoven's surviving writing about music is an example. If someone knew more about early Medieval to Renaissance composers, I'm sure the thread could be huge. Even in modern times, many write about the relationship of philosophy (and spirituality) to music. There are many recent theorists, some of whom have a mathematical or "sacred geometry" type stance.


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