# flat IV substitution?



## johnfkingmatrix

hey, i was wondering if anyone could shed any light on this, it sounds OK to me when i do a I IV V progression , if i drop the IV chord down a half step. 
Whenever i search "flat IV substitution" all i come up with is flat III or flat VI , i can't find much info on this.

Can anyone explain the gist of this idea, or if it's a thing / famous examples? closest i can figure is that its borrowing from harmonic minor scale 

thank you


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## Bwv 1080

johnfkingmatrix said:


> hey, i was wondering if anyone could shed any light on this, it sounds OK to me when i do a I IV V progression , if i drop the IV chord down a half step.
> Whenever i search "flat IV substitution" all i come up with is flat III or flat VI , i can't find much info on this.
> 
> Can anyone explain the gist of this idea, or if it's a thing / famous examples? closest i can figure is that its borrowing from harmonic minor scale
> 
> thank you


In Jazz it would be called a minor 3rd substitution for the V, not a sub for the IV - just as you can sub bII for V you can also sub a dominant chord a minor third above or below the V, the logic is

a) a diminished 7th chord on the leading tone gives you a b9 if you add the 5th scale degree below
b) you can then get b9 chords from using the 5th, b7th, b2nd or 3rd(bIV) as a root
c) dont have to make it a b9, can use any other dominant chord


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## SanAntone

> it sounds OK to me when i do a I IV V progression , if i drop the IV chord down a half step.


To me what you are calling a "Flat-IV" is nothing other than a III chord, and would not be a suitable substitution for a IV chord.

E.G. if we are in C, a IV chord is the F major (F-A-C) chord - the "Flat IV" would be an E minor chord (E-G-B), or outside the diatonic environment an E major chord (E-G#-B) - neither is a substitute for the IV chord since they do not share any common tones.

So either I am not understanding what you are trying to do or you are not explaining it very well.

The most common substitutions for a IV chord are the ii (D-F-A); vi (A-C-E).


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## Torkelburger

Hey John, when you play the game of darts, do you throw the dart at the wall and then draw the target around it?

If you don't play darts, does that sound like how you would play? Asking for a curious friend.


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## johnfkingmatrix

Torkelburger said:


> Hey John, when you play the game of darts, do you throw the dart at the wall and then draw the target around it?
> 
> If you don't play darts, does that sound like how you would play? Asking for a curious friend.


i throw a dart at a globe, and then i research the country it lands on. eventually ill know a lot about geography


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## johnfkingmatrix

SanAntone said:


> To me what you are calling a "Flat-IV" is nothing other than a III chord, and would not be a suitable substitution for a IV chord.
> 
> E.G. if we are in C, a IV chord is the F major (F-A-C) chord - the "Flat IV" would be an E minor chord (E-G-B), or outside the diatonic environment an E major chord (E-G#-B) - neither is a substitute for the IV chord since they do not share any common tones.
> 
> So either I am not understanding what you are trying to do or you are not explaining it very well.
> 
> The most common substitutions for a IV chord are the ii (D-F-A); vi (A-C-E).


im sure im not explaining it well, basically, in C im doing C F G, and then adding an E maj.

so yes upon reading what youve posted, ive over complicated the question,its a III instead of a iii.

so a major III substitution ?


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## johnfkingmatrix

Bwv 1080 said:


> In Jazz it would be called a minor 3rd substitution for the V, not a sub for the IV - just as you can sub bII for V you can also sub a dominant chord a minor third above or below the V, the logic is
> 
> a) a diminished 7th chord on the leading tone gives you a b9 if you add the 5th scale degree below
> b) you can then get b9 chords from using the 5th, b7th, b2nd or 3rd(bIV) as a root
> c) dont have to make it a b9, can use any other dominant chord


that will give me a lot to research, thank you.


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## Torkelburger

johnfkingmatrix said:


> i throw a dart at a globe, and then i research the country it lands on. eventually ill know a lot about geography


First learn what planet you're on


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## Torkelburger

johnfkingmatrix said:


> im sure im not explaining it well, basically, in C im doing C F G, and then adding an E maj.
> 
> so yes upon reading what youve posted, ive over complicated the question,its a III instead of a iii.
> 
> so a major III substitution ?


It's a borrowed sharp II from the minor. Try googling it


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## SanAntone

johnfkingmatrix said:


> im sure im not explaining it well, basically, in C im doing C F G, and then adding an E maj.
> 
> so yes upon reading what youve posted, ive over complicated the question,its a III instead of a iii.
> 
> so a major III substitution ?


It's not really a substitution since the III chord does not function in the same way a IV chord does. Unless you mean I III IV V which is not an uncommon progression.

But you can also have a progression that is I - III - V but it is not commonly used that way. Normally you'd resolve the III chord to a vi chord (A min in the key of C). But that is conventional practice. Maybe you're trying to do something unconventional, which is fine and can often produce wonderful results.

Without more information, i.e. where would you go from I III V, it seems incomplete at this point.


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## Vasks

Unless you are involved with a theory class/instruction and this E major chord (_or is it? ....insert ominous low brass sounds...an F-flat major chord???_) has to be explained for that class/instruction, it's Roman numeral analysis is totally unimportant. If you like the chord progression you've created, that's all that matters.


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## Bwv 1080

johnfkingmatrix said:


> that will give me a lot to research, thank you.


Perhaps an easier way to think about it - if you lower any note of a diminished 7th chord by a half-step you get a dominant 7th on the new note, so taking a Bdim7 - B D F Ab it generates Bb7 Db7 E7 and G7 and any of these four chords can be used as subs for the others.


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## johnfkingmatrix

Torkelburger said:


> First learn what planet you're on


what you suggest i do dawg? get a fancy music degree like you so i can be mean to kids on the internet who are trying to learn from old folks? : (


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## Torkelburger

johnfkingmatrix said:


> what you suggest i do dawg? get a fancy music degree like you so i can be mean to kids on the internet who are trying to learn from old folks? : (


See post #11.

Since you asked, it also wouldn't hurt to maybe offer your own feedback and opinions on *other* people's threads every once in a while, especially with all of that "research" under your belt, instead of just loafing around and freeloading off of experts on this site every single time you pull something out of where the sun don't shine every two weeks and have experts spinning their wheels trying to explain to you something you don't even understand and will forget within the next five minutes till you pull something out of the dark again on a whim.


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## johnfkingmatrix

SanAntone said:


> It's not really a substitution since the III chord does not function in the same way a IV chord does. Unless you mean I III IV V which is not an uncommon progression.
> 
> But you can also have a progression that is I - III - V but it is not commonly used that way. Normally you'd resolve the III chord to a vi chord (A min in the key of C). But that is conventional practice. Maybe you're trying to do something unconventional, which is fine and can often produce wonderful results.
> 
> Without more information, i.e. where would you go from I III V, it seems incomplete at this point.


im starting to see that im misusing the word "substitution" is "borrowing" the correct term for this?

what im doing is I V IV, and then adding a III before the IV for I V III IV
which is all diatonic, except the III should be minor, and im making it major.

i should add, i started with a cliche blues I7 IV7 V7 progression in C, and then just realized that (to my ears) i could add a III6 or III7 in, and have it resolve pretty easily to the IV


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## johnfkingmatrix

Torkelburger said:


> It's a borrowed sharp II from the minor. Try googling it


it IS isn't it. 
so im just "borrowing" the II from the parallel minor? is this a common chord to borrow? and if so, do you have any good examples?


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## johnfkingmatrix

Torkelburger said:


> See post #11.
> 
> Since you asked, it also wouldn't hurt to maybe offer your own feedback and opinions on *other* people's threads every once in a while, especially with all of that "research" under your belt, instead of just loafing around and freeloading off of experts on this site every single time you pull something out of where the sun don't shine every two weeks and have experts spinning their wheels trying to explain to you something you don't even understand and will forget within the next five minutes till you pull something out of the dark again on a whim.


I retain all of it to the best of my ability. I value the advice so much that ive been a member for over 5 years, and am continuing to try to learn - so clearly there's some dedication on my end. i thought it would be an insult for me to "weigh in" on other peoples stuff, since im far from an expert. 
but, since you offered.... when would you like to meet up for a jam session? I can look over some of your scores 

( i live in california )


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## SanAntone

johnfkingmatrix said:


> im starting to see that im misusing the word "substitution" is "borrowing" the correct term for this?
> 
> what im doing is I V IV, and then adding a III before the IV for I V III IV
> which is all diatonic, except the III should be minor, and im making it major.
> 
> i should add, i started with a cliche blues I7 IV7 V7 progression in C, and then just realized that (to my ears) i could add a III6 or III7 in, and have it resolve pretty easily to the IV


That makes a lot more sense, and is actually a nice chord progression. When you said "substituting" I assumed you meant replaced, when what you meant was _insert_ the III. I'm glad to have gotten that straightened out.


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## EdwardBast

In the progression I - V - III# - IV, the III# is just a deceptively resolved V/vi.


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## Torkelburger

johnfkingmatrix said:


> it IS isn't it.
> so im just "borrowing" the II from the parallel minor? is this a common chord to borrow? and if so, do you have any good examples?


I was purposely writing nonsense just to try to get you on a wild goose chase.


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## Torkelburger

johnfkingmatrix said:


> I retain all of it to the best of my ability. I value the advice so much that ive been a member for over 5 years, and am continuing to try to learn - so clearly there's some dedication on my end. i thought it would be an insult for me to "weigh in" on other peoples stuff, since im far from an expert.
> but, since you offered.... when would you like to meet up for a jam session? I can look over some of your scores
> 
> ( i live in california )


*derail*

We could have a long time ago. I lived there from 98 through 2006, probably before you were born. In the LA area.

*end derail*


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