# Elliott Carter



## msegers

Today (Dec. 11, 2008) is Elliott Carter's 100th birthday, and from reports, he is alive and well AND composing. I have to admit that I am not familiar with his work at all. Despite my celebration of Messiaen's 100th yesterday, I am having to neglect Carter.

Any suggestions on where to begin with him? For some reason, I have never been able to get a grip on his work.


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## marval

I have to say I don't know him that well, but what I have heard I was not that keen on. Maybe I need to listen to some more a bit.

This is his Hiyoku for two Clarinets.


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## Guest

msegers,

First, you'll need to resolve this apparent contradiction:

"I am not familiar with his work at all."

"I have never been able to get a grip on his work."

Next, you'll need to tell us what you ARE familiar with. If you haven't had much experience with 20th century music generally, or with only the "neo-" or "post-" folks like Hanson, Bax, Greenberg, or Lauridsen, then we'll need to direct you first to the very earliest Carter pieces, like _The Minotaur_ from 1947. Trouble is, the early works don't a lead a listener very well into the later works. Once one is familiar with the later works, one can clearly see what the connections are, but that's harder to do from knowing _just_ the earlier works.

If you like orchestral music generally, then I'd say start with the _Variations._ If you like piano music, then the piano sonata. If you like concertos, then the _Double Concerto._ Cello? The cello sonata.

These are just to start with, note. Not necessarily his best or greatest or whatever, though he's been a pretty consistent composer for the past sixty years.


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## World Violist

I'm playing his Elegy for viola and piano. It's a very interesting piece, and I like it. Not very familiar with his other stuff, though I do have Bernstein/NYPO playing his Concerto for Orchestra. Must listen to that eventually...


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## shsherm

I attended a performance of works by Carter in LA a week ago and last night listened to a program on KUSC in LA featuring the works of Carter. There have also been several interviews with him on the radio this last week. I first heard his music on an FM station in Chicago about 1956 or '57. The Holiday Overture was played and I finally found a CD with this music on Naxos about 3 years ago. Have no fear of the new for all things change.


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## Sid James

I just bought the CD/DVD set Naxos released last year, on the occassion of Carter's 100th birthday. The CD has a number of his chamber works, composed from the 1990's onwards.

The highlight of the CD is _*Dialogues*_ for piano and chamber ensemble. It is, as the title suggests, a set of dialogues between the soloist and the ensemble. An interesting piece. I think that there is a certain influence of his friend Edgard Varese, but this might be a superficial impression, as I don't know much about post WWII music in general. However, listening to the whole CD, it is clear that Carter has a unique style. & compared to composers like Varese or Xenakis, I don't find it that hard to comprehend.


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## handlebar

I'm a big fan of Mr Carter's works. The early symphonies and piano concerto are much more accessible to the more tonal music lover. His Boston concerto and Cello concerto on Bridge Records are delightful!!!

Naxos have been releasing many of his works, so it is easy to sample him on the website.

What a great inspiration for all when a man can be composing and stay in good health at age 100.
I'm very impressed. He is our last living link to that Golden Age of American composers. He knew them all from Copland and Creston to Diamond,etc.

Jim


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## Mirror Image

He's an interesting composer, but that's about it. I find his work way too experimental for my tastes.


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## Sid James

I think his music can be likended to a cubist or abstract painting. He gives you snippets of a tune, played in different ways. The instruments bounce ideas off eachother as if in a conversation. It's up to the listener to put the jigsaw together. Even the title of a recent work (on the Naxos CD I mentioned above) seems to allude to this: it's called _Mosaic_.


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## Herzeleide

_Mosaic_ is a fantastic piece.

I'm a passionate admirer of Carter's work. I especially love his _Concerto for Orchestra_, _Symphony of Three Orchestras_ and _Penthode_.


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## handlebar

Mirror Image said:


> He's an interesting composer, but that's about it. I find his work way too experimental for my tastes.


Try the Symphony #1 and the Piano concerto. They are tonal and very well done.The Naxos CD is worth the listen.

Jim


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## Mirror Image

handlebar said:


> Try the Symphony #1 and the Piano concerto. They are tonal and very well done.The Naxos CD is worth the listen.
> 
> Jim


Tonal or not, I'm not keen of Carter.


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## handlebar

Mirror Image said:


> Tonal or not, I'm not keen of Carter.


Understood.


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## Sid James

Listening to recent works of Carter from the 2000's such as _Mosaics_ &_ Dialogues_, which I mentioned above, it is actually quite amazing how he has continued to produce works so fresh into his old age. I mean we all know about some composers throughout history, who became inflexible & crotchety in their old age. Not so with Carter. Those pieces still show a willingness to push the boundaries in very interesting ways. Apparently, he still composes on a daily basis. I hope we get a chance to hear some more of his new compositions, as the small amount I've heard already have been superb...


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## BuddhaBandit

Carter's one of my favorite American composers, and one of the first modern composers that I really liked (I'm a big fan of atonal/"experimental" music now). My introduction to Carter was this wonderful CD:

http://www.amazon.com/Elliott-Carter-Concerto-Orchestra-Occasions/dp/B0016MJ3M2/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1244474123&sr=8-7

Give it a listen, msegers.


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## handlebar

Naxos just released a CD/DVD combo with Mosaics and Dialogues along with quite a few smaller works. The DVD is worth the price of the edition,which is a celebration of the 100th birthday of Mr Carter. I paid $8.99 and am very happy with it. There are some good Carter interviews as well on YouTube.

Jim


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## Sid James

I just got Vol. 1 of *Carter's string quartets *(Nos. 1 & 5) on Naxos. A grammy award winning cd, performed by the Pacifica String Quartet.

No. 1 is a really complex work, so it's difficult to describe. But if you like modern string quartets, you'll probably connect with this one. The adagio movement is full of tension & nuance, and Carter finshes the work with an interesting set of variations. It was written in the 1950's in the Arizona desert, & some say that the work reflects that landscape. Something about it reminded me of Hindemith's last quartet.

No. 5 is by comparison a lighter work. It was written in 1995. In the liner notes Carter says that he had exhausted the directions that he began to explore with No. 1. But No. 5 isn't by any means easy listening, it's divided up into 12 movements which flow into eachother.

& Jim, I've got that 100th Anniversary Naxos DVD which you mention. I've posted about it a while back. The DVD is from a live performance, so it's not the most exciting account of the music, visually speaking. But Carter's interview with conductor Robert Aitken is quite interesting & the CD has a number of his more recent chamber works...


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## haydnguy

Thanks for reminding me Andre. I haven't listened to Carter in a while. Going to do that today!


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## Sid James

I also read in the cd liner notes of the cd above, that Carter briefly studied with Holst at Harvard in 1932, & also three years in Paris with Nadia Boulanger (most people will know about the latter).

Here's a quote from Carter in the cd's notes about how he came to compose his string quartets:

"I probably decided to write what was to be the First Quartet when I read about a composition prize in Liege, Belgium, because there were many ideas swarming around in my imagination about expression, rhythm, and harmony, mostly derived from my Cello Sonata. I read through all the Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Debussy, Ravel, Bartók, Berg, and Ruth Crawford Seeger quartets to find a way of using the four instruments to present my ideas. As I began to compose, with a Guggenheim Fellowship, in Tucson, Arizona, I soon realized that the work would make such demands on performers that it might never be performed, yet I continued. To my surprise it won the Liège Prize and the Walden Quartet became the first of many to play it. Then my Second, Third, and Fourth Quartets developed my imaginings in different ways until I began to realize that soon I would exhaust this direction, and so my Fifth Quartet became a farewell to the previous four and an exploration of a new vision. All the quartets were written about ten years apart. Now the Pacifica Quartet has had the courage and mastery to present all of them on the same program, which is amazing."


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## Sid James

I just got the EMI "American Classics" CD of some of Carter's orchestral works & think they are very interesting. *Three Occassions for orchestra *& the_* Violin Concerto *_are interesting pieces, shades of Ives in the former & Schoenberg & Berg in the latter. But the one that really packs a punch is the _*Concerto for orchestra*_. It presents some fascinating sounds & textures, similar to Varese & Penderecki he uses the orchestra as a timbral pool from which to draw various colours & shapes (but Carter's music is much gentler than theirs). It's like a tapestry of sound, and there is much drama & lyricism also. I think that anyone who has listened to other works in this genre, by Bartok, Kodaly, Lutoslawski, should check out the Carter concerto. It's simply amazing!...


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## Head_case

the Arditti Quartet's premier of his works is the string quartet version I've become accustomed to. 

I wish I could be as enthusiastic as you are about his music. I'd more or less given up on him after over a decade of trying. The density of his philosophically informed process philosophy really lends his music to a strange kind of organic growth and expansion within his music, such that a string quartet takes on the textures of a whole symphony. Whereas some will applaud this, I find it very confusing and bewildering, left clueless in the pantheistic maelstrom that follows.

On the other hand, Mikotaj Patosz, one of Poland's premier cellists, interprets Carter's solo cello works (Figments) and brings a tremendous clarity to the piece for me. I find Carter's solo works far more convincing and clearer to engage with than his more dense works. 

Congratulations on his wonderful age too. If he was British he would get a birthday card from the Queen.


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## Sid James

Yes, I understand what you mean head case, his solo works are more "digestible." But I love the complexity of Carter's other works, even though I am only beginning to understand them. As for the _String Quartets_, I don't think their big "orchestral" sound detracts from their overall quality. For me, it actually adds to their attractiveness & ability to engage the listener.

I finally "got" the _String Quartet No. 1_. I can not only hear the main theme coming from the solo cello in the opening bars, but what Carter does to this theme later. In many ways it mirrors other earlier works in the classical/romantic tradition (such as Berlioz' _Symphonie Fantastique_) which take you on a journey through exploring a single theme. I really like the set of variations (the final movement), it has this lightness & grace which reminds me of Schubert, even, but in it's centre it's tought as nuts, not a note is wasted, everything is thought out, planned, executed.

I'm yet to "get" the other four quartets, but no doubt this will happen in time. They are all different. _No.2_ is interspersed with a series of cadenzas for each instrument (but they are interrupted cadenzas!). _No. 3_ is the most complex, I'm not even close to understanding it, it divides the quartet into (a series of?) duos, which sometimes play independently, sometimes combine. _No. 4_ is similar to No. 1, but (I think?) it explores a number of themes, not just the one. & No. 5 is a tight-knit serial work of relative brevity (20 minutes), spread out into 12 movements which flow into eachother.

I like listening to Carter's string quartets, even though it's taken me a while to understand the 1st. Music is like a journey, you learn things about yourself and others along the way...


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## robert

I do not expect to get everything Carter is saying but boy do I love listening....

Robert


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## Head_case

Andre said:


> Yes, I understand what you mean head case, his solo works are more "digestible." But I love the complexity of Carter's other works, even though I am only beginning to understand them. As for the _String Quartets_, I don't think their big "orchestral" sound detracts from their overall quality. For me, it actually adds to their attractiveness & ability to engage the listener.
> 
> I finally "got" the _String Quartet No. 1_. I can not only hear the main theme coming from the solo cello in the opening bars, but what Carter does to this theme later. In many ways it mirrors other earlier works in the classical/romantic tradition (such as Berlioz' _Symphonie Fantastique_) which take you on a journey through exploring a single theme. I really like the set of variations (the final movement), it has this lightness & grace which reminds me of Schubert, even, but in it's centre it's tought as nuts, not a note is wasted, everything is thought out, planned, executed.
> 
> I'm yet to "get" the other four quartets, but no doubt this will happen in time. They are all different. _No.2_ is interspersed with a series of cadenzas for each instrument (but they are interrupted cadenzas!). _No. 3_ is the most complex, I'm not even close to understanding it, it divides the quartet into (a series of?) duos, which sometimes play independently, sometimes combine. _No. 4_ is similar to No. 1, but (I think?) it explores a number of themes, not just the one. & No. 5 is a tight-knit serial work of relative brevity (20 minutes), spread out into 12 movements which flow into eachother.
> 
> I like listening to Carter's string quartets, even though it's taken me a while to understand the 1st. Music is like a journey, you learn things about yourself and others along the way...


That's good going. I'm definitely going to have to sit down and try again, taking note of what you've emphasised. Schubert is very lyrical; particularly his last four quartets. His G major (No. XV) ? is the most tireless string quartet of his; I can play it for days and weeks on end, and the sonorous lyrics of the first and second violins just pull me away into another world. Carter....I um....get carried away with other uhh...distractions and get on with my own world with his music in the background. I know it shouldn't be!

I'm waiting for Carter's gems to reveal themselves. Of the Americans, I can 'get' James Dillon. George Antheil is/was a waste of time. Carter's complexity however, still doesn't match up to the stature of Rochberg's late formation (string quartets III-VI) which I've only discovered this year. Rochberg has essentially, discovered his own musical language beyond serialism, reinvigorating music, with the very lyricism I love so much about string quartet music. I think if you like Carter's first volume as much as you do (and clearly you've penetrated it deeper than I have), then you will enjoy Rochberg's late era music even more.


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## starry

Carter's quartets are obviously difficult but the first step is to find them interesting (rather than just dismiss them), going that further step is something I and some others hope to do someday.


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## Sid James

robert said:


> I do not expect to get everything Carter is saying but boy do I love listening....


That just about sums up my experience. I love the journey he takes you on, even if it's to places you don't know (musically speaking, of course)...



head case said:


> ...Carter....I um....get carried away with other uhh...distractions and get on with my own world with his music in the background. I know it shouldn't be!...


That's what my mother thinks about "atonal" music - it's good background music! I suppose there's the fact that you (sometimes) don't have to think about a "tune" as in traditional music, so the sounds all kind of "blend in" to eachother in the atonal. & thanks for mentioning Rochberg, I haven't heard of him & will look him up...



starry said:


> Carter's quartets are obviously difficult but the first step is to find them interesting (rather than just dismiss them), going that further step is something I and some others hope to do someday.


As I said above, No. 1 is probably the best place to start. It has a sense of a "grand narrative" about it, taking a single theme on a fantastic journey. He states the theme on the cello at the beginning, and this is carried through and transformed throughout the rest of the work. For me, it's been easier to "get" than most of Bartok's quartets, but it's early days with them yet...


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## robert

Head-case

I have problems connecting to background music. Once in awhile something might catch my ear, but most of the time its what it is background music...With Carter I need to listen to get connected. If I am not connected I cannot follow his ideas....so Carter for me could never just be background. The same with Ligeti, Webern, Boulez etc.....I do not feel atonal should be treated as background.... FWIW

Robert


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## starry

You mention 'background music' without defining it, what exactly is it (apart from music you just don't like)?


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## robert

starry said:


> You mention 'background music' without defining it, what exactly is it (apart from music you just don't like)?


Background music is just what it implies....any music that you have on in the background without paying much attention,.for no specific purpose other than adding some color to the silence.........I did not say I did not like it, it could be music I like but, would not pay any attention to it.....I sometimes do have music on while I am doing work..I think most people do the same thing.....

Robert


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## starry

Yeh but what I mean is what might be background for you might not be for someone else. Attention may vary to a degree with music according to how complex it may be but it could also vary depending on just how much into it you are. Maybe as you are getting to know a piece you need to listen more closely but once you have fully become familiar with it you may not listen to it quite as closely.


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## robert

I believe the original mention of background music was in context of not caring or listening....Background music is not necessarily a bad thing.....I believe it was mentioned in a negative way.....Like not liking the music...

Robert


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## Sid James

I'm beginning to actually understand and absorb some of Carter's music after having listened to it for just over a year. The 1st string quartet I pretty much understood straight away, it's been some of the other works that have taken longer to digest.

One work that has drawn me in more is his _Three Occasions for Orchestra_ from the 1980's. These commemorate the 150th anniversary of Texas, a musical benefactor of the Boston Symphony Orchestra who had just died, and Carter's own 50th wedding anniversary respectively. The outer movements are more colorful and busy, whilst the middle one is slow and has this mournful trombone solo that sounds pretty tricky. In the final movement, there are two musical lines to begin with (representing Carter and his wife), and then a third comes in at the end (the son they had). Although this is not a long work, it is a good one, and shows the facility with which Carter can write for the full gamut of sounds to be made by a large orchestra.


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## Sid James

I posted some of my experiences with *Carter's Violin Concerto *(composed 1990) on the "current listening" thread today, I've decided to put them here as well, plus some youtube clips of what I think is the same recording.

One reviewer on classicstoday described Carter's music as being "like barbed wire," I can understand this, but on the other hand in some works this guy reveals himself as a kind of "atonal softy" (a bit like Berg in some ways - I mean more in that both apply things like the serialist technique to their own ends, not in "set" ways, sometimes Carter's focus can be just as "emotional" as that of Berg's is more obviously) When he isn't being too kind of complex & over your head, Carter can really "hit the spot." That's how I see his _String Quartet No. 1_, which I have gone into much detail on this thread earlier. Although Carter has called himself a "radical" he can be quite poetic in a way as well & in many ways not much "harder" or "difficult" than other "atonal" composers, not only of the c20th Viennese School who clearly influenced him, but others as well. Anyway, I felt that the _Violin Concerto _was much more "graspable" & as a result more enjoyable on a simpler basis than his more "busy" works. I've only heard one other concerto by him, the one for clarinet, that is different in terms of many things (eg. 5 or so connected movts. alternating in rhythm between faster & slower, as well as having a jazzy feel - appropriate for the instrument). But this one for violin has a "song-like" quality, but these are still quite fragmented songs. The violinist hardly stops playing throughout the whole work, it's a bit similar in that way to Stravinsky's own _Violin Concerto_.

Carter's _Violin Concerto _is now one of my favourite works by him, as it's not as complex as some of his other things. The violin plays these fragmentary themes that go through the whole work, and the orchestra is mainly in an accompanist role. The three movements go without pause & you can kind of hear the difference between them. The first movement is kind of like an introduction, in a more or less "neutral" mood, the second is the slow movement, I can hear the double basses playing lower notes, it feels darker, and the final movt. is more bouncy and almost joyful. Carter often uses a fade-out effect at the very end of his works, & he does it here as well, the violin trails off into nothingness. This is my favourite work on this disc, the other two are more colourful in terms of orchestration, but it's much harder to follow their "narratives" (esp. the Concerto for Orch., something like 5 things going on at once in the modern fugue at the end). I'm not saying that Carter's _Violin Concerto _is a "walk in the park," what I'm basically saying that it's not as kind of "full-on" as some of his other more complex stuff. At least in terms of things like speed you can hear the difference between the 3 movements reasonably clearly & the fragmented "themes" or "ideas" played by the violin at the start come back at the beginning of the 3rd (final) movt. Let me know what you all think of this if you do end up giving it a listen, that would be interesting...

I think the youtube clips below are from this disc, which I have, this is mentioned on one of the youtube pages -
*CARTER* - Violin Concerto; Three Occassions for Orch., Concerto for Orch.
Ole Bohn / London Sinfonietta / Oliver Knussen, cond.
(EMI) - Disc cover image at bottom of my post.

*First movt.:* Impulsivo -





*Second movt.: *Angosciato (violin); Tranquillo (orchestra) -





*Third movt.:* Scherzando


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## Vazgen

I agree, the Violin Concerto is fascinating. Unlike other Carter concerti (which are much more densely woven), the VC has a clarity that surprised even this Carter fan. It's a virtuosic, dramatic work that I wouldn't hesitate to recommend to people intimidated by Carter's reputation for difficult listening.

-Vaz


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## starthrower

I bought the EMI CD earlier this year. I gave the Three Occasions, and the violin concerto a listen this morning. I enjoyed the first two parts of Occasions, but I couldn't really grasp much of the music beyond that.

The only other Carter I've listened to is the Symphony For Three Orchestras on a Sony CD. I remember liking this quite a bit. I'll have to get it out of the library for another listen.


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## Jeremy Marchant

I've just finished reviewing Carter's piano sonata for Fanfare. The performance is by Peter Seivewright and it is played on a Bosendorfer Imperial grand which sounds magnificent. This is particularly relevant since - even in this 1946 work - Carter uses techniques such as having the player depress keys silently and then play other notes staccato thereby creating sympathetic resonances. It's wonderful! And, because the work is structured on a semicircle of fifths from B to A sharp, it is a remarkably consonant work, with more than a hint of Aaron Copland in places - but also a stunning fugue in the second of the two movements.
I always do a bit of research if possible for my reviews and I was interested to learn that, compared with Seivewright's 31:38, Ursula Oppens rattles it off in 24 minutes. And, while Sievewright's performance sounded compelling ot me - I regret I did not know the work - the clips of the Oppens performance on Youtube were dazzling. So, I don't have a recommendation for performance but it is definitely a Carter work to approach for anyone who finds the later music a bit daunting.


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## starthrower

handlebar said:


> Try the Symphony #1 and the Piano concerto. They are tonal and very well done.The Naxos CD is worth the listen.
> 
> Jim


I really like the sound of these works from listening to the brief samples. I'm going to order a copy of the CD, thanks!


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## violadude

Elliot Carter-

Pieces I have by Carter

String quartets 1-4
Elegy for String quartet

Obviously, as you can see, I haven't heard a huge portion of the mans music but what I have heard, basically most of the string quartets, are marvelous and very inventive. I think they are easily one of the best string quartet cycles in the latter half of the 20th century. They are some of the hardest pieces to appreciate I think. It took me so long to be able to listen to any of them without wondering what the hell was going on. I don't have a good grasp on 4 still, but the first 3 are great! The 1st is such a journey, with so much theme development from just the first cello line at the beginning. No. 2 and 3 are sooo imaginative. The idea that each instrument should have its own unique personality (string quartet 2) is so imaginative. Then the idea of two separate duets playing together with a separate set of themes and pitch classes (String quartet 3) is a great idea too. As I said I don't have a firm grasp on 4 yet, it doesn't appeal to me as much as the other ones, and I have never heard number 5. Anyway, Carter is always blamed for being too complex, which I agree it is very complex, but that doesn't negate the imagination in his pieces!


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## starthrower

I'd like to pick up the 4-CD set on Nonesuch. I love the sonata for cello and piano, the piano sonatas sound good too. There's a bunch of other interesting stuff on this set including the first two string quartets, more sonatas, and his double concerto for harpsichord and piano. A lot of music for around 25 bucks.
http://www.nonesuch.com/albums/elliott-carter-a-nonesuch-retrospective


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## pollux

*Happy birthday!*

Well, today our beloved big daddy has turned 103. Now that all his contemporary composers are gone (Messiaen, Lutoslawski) and those of the next generation, too (Ligeti, Xenakis, Berio, Takemitsu... all but Boulez) there's no doubt who should be considered the best composer alive.

Talking about my own experience, years ago I was lucky enough to attend two concerts in Barcelona where the Arditti Quartet performed his four SQ (the fifth was yet to be composed) and Carter himself was there. He received such warm ovations! It was an unforgettable experience indeed.


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## pollux

I wish I could be there:

http://www.92y.org/Uptown/Event/Elliot-Carter-103rd-Birthday.aspx


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## starthrower

103? Holy sh#t! I've been slowing working on some of his music over the past year. Just as a listener that is. I'm going to try the first two string quartets next.


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## clavichorder

What do y'all think of that third string quartet? The beginning initially sounded to me like a transformer having a cardiac arrest. Its crazily complex, and the beginning has some sense revealed to it if you listen to the whole piece. I'm gonna have to listen to it again. Yesterday was the first time all the way through.


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## Mandryka

clavichorder said:


> What do y'all think of that third string quartet? The beginning initially sounded to me like a transformer having a cardiac arrest. Its crazily complex, and the beginning has some sense revealed to it if you listen to the whole piece. I'm gonna have to listen to it again. Yesterday was the first time all the way through.


I like it, but I much prefer the 4th quartet.


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## millionrainbows

Here's a good way to celebrate Carter, in SACD surround. The sound is fabulous.










I began to understand Carter better after I read a book about his methods. Then I realized that he is basically using the same materials as serialism. He developed his own version of the "Forte index" of all possible sets. It's basically the same thing, only Carter has his own nomenclature and orderings, and is interested in certain types of sets. So he is a "chromatic" composer who uses "sets" of note which relate to each other structurally, just like serial methods. Beyond that, he has his own ways of "dramatic staging" when he composes; it's helpful to listeners to know that the First String Quartet uses each instrument and its lines as being independent of each other; none of it really coincides in the way other kinds of music does. This was extremely helpful to me in listening "meaningfully" to his music.


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## Dirge

Elliott CARTER: _A Symphony of Three Orchestras_ (1976)
:: Boulez/NYPO [CBS/Sony]
https://play.spotify.com/album/3ymNhBpt5pbBQEqzSrUM8m (track 1)

This is yet another work in which Carter divvies up his resources and variously juxtaposes or pits the resulting sub-forces against one another. In this case, he divvies up one big orchestra into three little orchestras of differing constitution and assigns each its very own set of four movements. Carter choreographs things so that each orchestra plays a movement in turn, with each movement beginning some time before the preceding movement ends. The result, then, is a continuous, overlapping twelve-movement work. This allows for a good deal of variety and complexity without too much density. Indeed, textures are often quite transparent, and even when they aren't, when the music is relatively busy and dense, the orchestration is such that a focused listener can discern most any and every voice through the din, giving the illusion of transparency. The Symphony is slowly dramatic in its prevailing work-long descent from high pitch to low, and there are many affecting solos, some downright whistleable (if you're a very very good whistler), that emerge throughout, the opening trumpet call being the most conspicuous of them. In fact, that very trumpet call is the single most beautiful episode I've encountered in any Elliott Carter work-yes, you read right: I used "beautiful" and "Elliott Carter" in the same sentence. It was inspired by Hart Crane's description of a sea gull over Brooklyn Bridge, and it sounds a bit like the trumpet part from Copland's _Quiet City_ as played by a trumpeter on an acid bender.

The performance effectively balances and coordinates things, with Boulez mostly able to control his strong and ever-present urge to indulge in analytical highlighting. The various solos are nicely characterized, but there's an air of caution about the proceedings on the whole. Even so, I have to give Boulez and the NYPO high marks here, for I rather doubt that the work's intricate and touchy internal relationships could be so well established and made clear in a reading of Mitropoulos-or Scherchen-like passion and intensity-though I'd love to hear an attempt at such a reading.


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## 20centrfuge

*Elliott Carter - Where to Start?*

I would like to start exploring this modern master's output. So the question - which pieces to start with? And, since you're here anyway, please tell me what your absolute favorites are by Mr. Carter. (and any advice) (oh, and where are my car keys!?, I can't find...)


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## Mahlerian

Some of his later music is very approachable:





I've always liked those pieces between his Neoclassical and middle styles, such as the Piano Sonata:





Of course, for full-on, wild and untamed Carter, you have to head to the 60s/70s works:


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## brotagonist

This is the first one I heard:









It was about 3 years ago and I asked myself in puzzlement, "How could I have missed this composer all of those decades?" My immediate reaction was to hear more. Next was:









Now, I was sure that I had made the discovery of this century (a century late), so I tried both of these:















I was in heaven. The latter of the two has some beautiful stuff, like the Oboe Concerto, but I don't regard the vocal works to be as mission critical. I had to hear more, and this was just the thing:









I realized that I lacked exposure to his celebrated String Quartets, so I turned on to the Pacifica Quartet's versions (only 5 images allowed, but you can see them here). I'm all ears: what will be next?


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## Mandryka

tknowlton said:


> I would like to start exploring this modern master's output. So the question - which pieces to start with? And, since you're here anyway, please tell me what your absolute favorites are by Mr. Carter. (and any advice) (oh, and where are my car keys!?, I can't find...)


My fave is the 4th quartet, followed by Syringa.


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## PetrB

You're broadly covered as to time line, and well, by the above given by Mahlerian.

I'd first recommend those earlier works just past his neoclassical, like that piano sonata:

The _Sonata for 'Cello and Piano_, his first essay in what developed into his later style, including a fair usage of metric modulation. A fine, and very listenable piece, the third movement a beauty of a slow declamatory elegaic quality.

_Eight Etudes and a Fantasy for wind quartet_: the etudes (very brief) are made up each of but one interval, predating and somewhat like the working principles found later in 'minimalism,' -- they are each no more than a few minutes, though: the Fantasy uses all the intervals and parts of the etudes in combination, quite a neat contrapuntal trick. I find the work quite interesting as well as 'pleasant.'

His later _Sonata for Flute, Oboe, Cello and Harpsichord_, sounding 'a bit serial,' actually an early foray into _musical set theory_, that technique which he developed along his own lines as he continued to write.

After that recommended _A Symphony of Three Orchestras_

the _Double Concerto for piano, harpsichord and 2 chamber orchestras_ (1961) is dense, requiring three (if I recall right) conductors, and at the time was considered _the_ most technically demanding orchestral piece yet written. To sound perhaps glib, I think it 'makes a nice sound.'

I am well-familiar with these two vocal works from the mid-seventies,
_A Mirror on Which to Dwell_ for soprano and ensemble (1975)
_Syringa_ for mezzo-soprano, bass-baritone, guitar, and ensemble (1978)
the _Syringa_ a clear example of several layers of music moving at different speeds in different tempi (multi-temporal).


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## Albert7

The complete string quartets are wonderful to start off with. Recorded on Naxos beautifully.


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## millionrainbows

My first Carter was the Variations for Orchestra, on vinyl LP, with this fabulous cover photo:


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## shadowdancer

His Cello Cto here is my recomendation.


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## Richannes Wrahms

Back in the days I was told that Carter was such a radical and 'cruel to the ear', etc. In reality I think he is a bit less accessible than Ligeti but much more accessible than Boulez. The Symphony of Three Orchestras (1976) has always sounded very much 'in the same vein' as Lutosławski's later Symphony No. 3 (1981-83). I'll admit I care more of him in term of technique then the actual music he wrote, which is fine but it doesn't do too much to me.


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## Albert7

shadowdancer said:


> His Cello Cto here is my recomendation.
> View attachment 65679


I have that disc and man it's a great pairing!


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## Vasks

millionrainbows said:


> My first Carter was the Variations for Orchestra, on vinyl LP, with this fabulous cover photo:


While that LP was not my first Carter (think it was the RCA of his Piano Concerto) I still have that record


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## violadude

If you prefer chamber music, check out the String Quartets, the cello sonata, the sonata for flute, Oboe, Cello and Harpsichord and Enchanted Preludes for Flute and Cello

If you prefer orchestral music, check out Symphony of Three Orchestras, Concerto for Orchestra, Symphonia: Sum Fluxae Pretium Spei and Three Occasions for Orchestra

If you prefer solo piano music, check out the Piano Sonata and Night Fantasies

If you prefer concertos, check out the (early) Piano concerto, violin concerto and Clarinet concerto.


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## rsikora

Every time I go to Storm King Art Center, I whip out a CD of his music and listen as I explore the fields of steel giants (sculptures)


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Good to see that some of us on TC do like Carter and think he was a great composer.


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## millionrainbows

Vasks said:


> While that LP was not my first Carter (think it was the RCA of his Piano Concerto) I still have that record


I want a white linen suit like that, and a chair like that, and some land like that…maybe a mint julep...


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## Janspe

There's a _fantastic_ new Ondine release of Carter's late works:









The CD includes four works for piano and orchestra (_Interventions_, _Dialogues I_, _Dialogues II_, and _Soundings_), the _Two Controversies and a Conversation_ for piano, percussion and orchestra, the _Instances_ for orchestra and finally his last work, the _Epigrams_ for piano trio.

The roster of interpreters is impressive: Pierre-Laurent Aimard takes the brightest spot in the spotlight by playing all the piano parts, and he's aptly supported throughout by Oliver Knussen leading the BBC Symphony Orchestra and the Birmingham Contemporary Music Group. Colin Currie, Isabelle Faust and Jean-Guihen Queyas make guest appearances each!

This is exactly the kind of advocacy contemporary music gravely needs - intelligent interpretations that have a beating heart, transparent readings of the scores and solid dedication to music one believes in. Warmly recommended!


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## senza sordino

A couple of days ago I heard two terrific recordings of his music.

I find his music fascinating, challenging and rather harsh. At times jarring and difficult. But that is the allure in small doses.

Reprinted from my current listening post. 
Elliot Carter Piano Concerto and Variations for Orchestra. Not sure if I've heard this before. It was quite engaging even though Carter's musical language can be quite difficult and complex. I'd really like to see his music performed, and alas I haven't and I don't foresee my local orchestra doing it anytime soon.








Elliot Carter String Quartets 1-5, that's all of them. Quite engaging, the first is from the early fifties and the last written in the mid nineties. Honestly, I couldn't listen to it all day, but nevertheless, the music is remarkable. The chords he creates are so fascinating, and the constant shift in rhythm is challenging. I can't help but think about how difficult it must be to play. 









I recommend these recordings, both available on Spotify. The String Quartets cd is a double album. I once had it in my hand to purchase at my local cd shop, but I put it back. I'm still not sure I'd buy it. I liked it, but hesitant to make the purchase. Still, I give these recordings a thumbs up.


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## Guest

I heard the Pacifica Quartet play all five Quartets in one concert--that was an exhausting experience for everyone! The next day, Ursula Oppens played his complete piano works...that too was quite a workout for all involved. (It was part of a Carter Festival in San Francisco several years ago.)


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## fluteman

Kontrapunctus said:


> I heard the Pacifica Quartet play all five Quartets in one concert--that was an exhausting experience for everyone! The next day, Ursula Oppens played his complete piano works...that too was quite a workout for all involved. (It was part of a Carter Festival in San Francisco several years ago.)


I too heard the Pacifica play all five quartets, in New York. Carter himself attended, as did many well-known New York based musicians. Sitting immediately behind me, by himself, was cellist David Finckel, formerly of the Emerson String Quartet and director of the Chamber Music at Lincoln Center series which sponsored the recital. Someone came over to speak with him at intermission, and his only comment was, "[email protected]#$%ing believable!" The Pacifica has recorded the set for Naxos, imho with not quite the impact of the live performance, but I'm still glad to have it. They stayed after their marathon recital to autograph their CDs. I opted to head right home and got to sleep.


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## arpeggio

Janspe said:


> There's a _fantastic_ new Ondine release of Carter's late works:
> 
> View attachment 98094
> 
> 
> The CD includes four works for piano and orchestra (_Interventions_, _Dialogues I_, _Dialogues II_, and _Soundings_), the _Two Controversies and a Conversation_ for piano, percussion and orchestra, the _Instances_ for orchestra and finally his last work, the _Epigrams_ for piano trio.
> 
> The roster of interpreters is impressive: Pierre-Laurent Aimard takes the brightest spot in the spotlight by playing all the piano parts, and he's aptly supported throughout by Oliver Knussen leading the BBC Symphony Orchestra and the Birmingham Contemporary Music Group. Colin Currie, Isabelle Faust and Jean-Guihen Queyas make guest appearances each!
> 
> This is exactly the kind of advocacy contemporary music gravely needs - intelligent interpretations that have a beating heart, transparent readings of the scores and solid dedication to music one believes in. Warmly recommended!


Just added to my wish list.


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## Janspe

arpeggio said:


> Just added to my wish list.


You wont regret it, I promise you!


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## paulbest

WOW, what a major event. 2 day Carter festival!!!, Cds is all I have down here in new orleans. That is a major heroic task, all 5 super demanding SQ's, in one sitting? Just unreal. Then the great Cater interpreter Ursula Oppens comes next day to perform piano works. Ethereal, super sublime, life changing event for sure. I've run into a few negative opinions about Carter over the years. Seems some just can not accept his new musical forms and ideas. Whereas for me, other than Ruggles few hits, there's hardly any other American composer I find equally engaging. 
For me, Elliott Carter is the single greatest American composer, with no other as a 2nd place. Carter stands alone. Carter has no need for any apologist nor a cheering crowd. Either you *get* his music creations , or you suffer to your own loss.

I do admit my opinion is nothing more than that. But I will express my right to free speech, hopefully free of bias, non inflammatory, or unfairness to other American composers, those who may feel they too have a right to that elevated position, as *America's greatest composer*. 
Every country has its greatest, seems clear to me, Elliott Carter has well earned this accolade in the American classical music tradition.


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## Larkenfield

Greatly enjoyed, composed in '52:


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## paulbest

The above masterful performance was taken over 1 year ago. Thanks for posting. I just left a comment on the YT vid.





Here is yet another YT vid of Carter's masterpiece. , sadly only 1st part of the sonata. Both are incredible performances.


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## flamencosketches

I am beginning to experience, I think, an inkling of an interest in this composer's music after previous attempts have yielded only confusion. This work really captivated me:






Elliott Carter has written a ton of music. Way more than I know what to do with. Where is a good place to start, perhaps judging by my interest in this work, or more generally speaking, what is a representative piece in his œuvre? The string quartets maybe? Maybe some of the Carterians here can help me


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## Bwv 1080

The string quartets are a good measure of changes in Carter’s style - the first quarter is an early 50s work similar to the sonata. 

The third quartet is near the pinnacle of his complexity, but is a very engaging piece once you get the general structure


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## Josquin13

I wouldn't claim to be a "Carterian"--though I like certain works by Elliott Carter. But I would suggest that you explore the music Oliver Knussen conducted & recorded by Carter. Knussen was particular about what contemporary music he'd conduct, and had a remarkable ear, so I'd trust his judgement. He conducted several CD albums of Carter's music, which included world premieres:

--Adagio tenebroso (1994)--which Carter later incorporated into his Symphonia (see below): 




--Symphonia: Sum fluxae pretium spei: 



--Clarinet Concerto: 




--Three Occasions for Orchestra, Violin Concerto, Concerto for Orchestra: 




--Dialogues, Boston Concerto, Cello Concerto, ASKO concerto: 




https://www.amazon.com/Elliott-Cart...+elliott+carter&qid=1562627227&s=music&sr=1-2
https://www.amazon.com/Carter-Occas...+elliott+carter&qid=1562627227&s=music&sr=1-6

https://www.amazon.com/Elliott-Cart...+elliott+carter&qid=1562627227&s=music&sr=1-5
https://www.amazon.com/20C-Carter-S...+elliott+carter&qid=1562627227&s=music&sr=1-9

https://www.amazon.com/Elliott-Cart...+elliott+carter&qid=1562627227&s=music&sr=1-7

https://www.amazon.com/Elliott-Cart...=carter+elliott&qid=1562627433&s=music&sr=1-1

--Otherwise, yes, the 5 String Quartets are worthwhile:

Arditti SQ:

Elegy for string quartet: 



1-4: 



5: 




Juilliard SQ (who are not as in tune as the Ardittis, but perhaps sound more authentic or idiomatic in this music): 
String Quartet No. 1: 




The cycle by the Pacifica SQ is worthwhile, too: https://www.amazon.com/Elliott-Cart...acifica+quartet&qid=1562630219&s=music&sr=1-1

--I'd also recommend the solo piano work that pianists Paul Jacobs, Ursula Oppens, Gilbert Kalish, & Charles Rosen jointly commissioned from Carter--"Night Fantasies"--which the composer dedicated to them. Naturally, the Jacobs, Oppens, & Rosen recordings are the ones to search out. (I'm not sure if Kalish ever recorded it, but he must have.) I like the Rosen recording best myself.

Rosen: 



https://www.amazon.com/Elliott-Cart...3NR45P6GMQ9&psc=1&refRID=P5E6G47JN3NR45P6GMQ9
Jacobs: If I'm not mistaken, this performance is in the Nonesuch box set (see link below)
Oppens: 




--I like Carter's Double Concerto (for piano & harpsichord and two chamber orchestras), too: 



, and his Piano Concerto (1964-65): 




https://www.amazon.com/Elliott-Cart...PYWDA4YNB0A&psc=1&refRID=HEV1QYZMXPYWDA4YNB0A

Finally, there's a Nonesuch box set, which includes the Sonata for Flute, Oboe, Cello, & Harpsichord--with Paul Jacobs on the harpsichord, and Gilbert Kalish on piano, and many other works: https://www.amazon.com/Elliott-Cart...ott+paul+jacobs&qid=1562627510&s=music&sr=1-1

My two cents.


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## flamencosketches

Bravo Josquin, you've done it again...  I will be listening through to these links and maybe buying ONE of these CDs within the next week or so... just have to pick the right one... it's fascinating stuff.


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## starthrower

Vol 7 on the Bridge label, the Knussen EMI disc, and the DG Symphonia disc are all excellent. And if you can find the Nonesuch Retrospective at a good price, that's a nice set.


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## Janspe

flamencosketches said:


> I am beginning to experience, I think, an inkling of an interest in this composer's music after previous attempts have yielded only confusion. This work really captivated me:
> ---
> Elliott Carter has written a ton of music. Way more than I know what to do with. Where is a good place to start, perhaps judging by my interest in this work, or more generally speaking, what is a representative piece in his œuvre? The string quartets maybe? Maybe some of the Carterians here can help me


I'm a self-proclaimed Carterian, having listened to most of his works, but I don't claim any kind of authority. However, here are some works that I've found the most captivating:

- *Concertante works*. The earlier ones, like the _Double Concerto_ and the _Piano Concerto_ are quite complex works, but very rewarding. I'm a huge fan of the _Violin Concerto_, and the _Oboe Concerto_ is a work that made me think "Oh my god, this composer tickles my brain in a way than no one else has ever managed" - there's just something about the sprawling textures and counterpoint that becomes addictive when one experiences it often enough. Also: the _Cello Concerto_ and the _Clarinet Concerto_ are not to be missed. I'm also a big fan of the late works for piano and orchestra, like the two _Dialogues_ and the _Inverventions_.
- *Other orchestral works*: the _Symphonia: sum fluxae pretium spei_ is a big, imposing piece; mandatory listening for anyone interested in Carter. The same goes for the _Symphony for Three Orchestras_ and the _Concerto for Orchestra_.
- *Chamber works*: This is where Carter truly shines. The five string quartets need no introductions, but works like the _Brass Quintet_, _Quintet for Piano and Winds_, _Quintet for Piano and Strings_, _Triple Duo_, _Duo for Piano and Violin_ and _Epigrams_ are definitely worth getting to know. And there's so much more...
- *Solo work*: Carter wrote a lot of music for solo instruments, and not just for the piano but for most standard instruments: piano, violin, viola, cello, double bass, oboe, clarinet, horn, trumpet, guitar, timpani, flute... Most of them very short, but definitely worth checking out.
- *Vocal works*: I'd recommend getting to know the opera _What's Next?_, even though its reception hasn't always been that good. I like _A Mirror on which to Dwell_ a lot. I hesitate giving strong recommendations in this field though, since it's the part of Carter's output I know the least.

I'm very happy to hear that you've found a way into Carter's world. He really was one of the very greatest composers of recent times and one of my favourites for sure. I'm constantly fascinated by his work, and it can only be hoped that his music will show up in concerts more often in the future.

This autumn in Helsinki there will be a performance of the _Double Concerto_. I will most definitely attend!


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## starthrower

There's a Carter disc recorded for Erato that contains the oboe concerto and other works. You can find the single disc re-issued on the Apex label, and it's also included in the Boulez Erato Recordings box. Heinz Holliger is the soloist.


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## millionrainbows

The Carter I imprinted on, on vinyl; now on CD from Arkiv:


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## paulbest

millionrainbows said:


> The Carter I imprinted on, on vinyl; now on CD from Arkiv:
> 
> View attachment 121191


Yes I have this cd, I believe I have all 3 available recordings, minus the james Levine,,which i am not interest in at all.
All 3 are excellent. And would buy more if ever come to market. It is music that defies any 1 recording as defining the work, so 3 individual unique original recordings. 
This is the way i look at all Carter's works, am a complete-ist in Elliott Carter. 
Although Boulez did record a few of carter's works, he failed to make a recording of this Variations for Orch masterpiece. 
I guess he was too busy off doing the complete Bruckner set.


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## flamencosketches

Boulez never made a complete Bruckner set, did he? I thought he only ever recorded the 8th symphony.

I ended up springing for this one:









... on the good word of Josquin13 and others. Been enjoying it, but still haven't heard the whole thing. I still would like to get that "Prophets of the New" disc I see so often with the composer on the cover, and then I also need a copy of that harpsichord quartet on disc. Excellent piece. Carter's music is still a little mind boggling to me, but when it clicks, it's really enjoyable.

Elliott Carter must have been really tight with Charles Rosen. Rosen dedicated his _Classical Style_ to Mr. Carter and his wife.


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## Janspe

flamencosketches said:


> Carter's music is still a little mind boggling to me, but when it clicks, it's really enjoyable.


There are pieces by Carter that still haven't stopped being absolutely mind-boggling to my ears, but for some strange reason that's part of the attraction that makes me delve into his music deeper and deeper. Especially his earlier (read: thornier) works can cause the most wonderful bewilderment.

I listened to the quintet for piano and strings recently; absolutely stunning work.


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## millionrainbows

Carter is "gesture." That's what draws me in.


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## flamencosketches

Janspe said:


> There are pieces by Carter that still haven't stopped being absolutely mind-boggling to my ears, but for some strange reason that's part of the attraction that makes me delve into his music deeper and deeper. Especially his earlier (read: thornier) works can cause the most wonderful bewilderment.
> 
> I listened to the quintet for piano and strings recently; absolutely stunning work.


Would you say Carter softened up in his old age? I haven't heard any of his later pieces.

Carter is a composer who, like Schoenberg, fascinates me in that he worked through several distinct periods of maturity. His composing career lasted damn near a century.

Anyway, a propos to that question, I have been considering two different Carter recordings to expand my collection a bit. I've been loving the Knussen disc I pictured previously, especially the Concerto for Orchestra and the Violin Concerto, and am not sure where to go from here.

Both of these look great:

















We have late works and then earlier works. Presumably, the works from the latter disc would be more in line with the works on this Knussen/London Sinfonietta disc. So I guess it's a matter of deciding whether I want more of the same (inasmuch as that is possible with Carter ) or something that changes it up a bit.

Carter's music has been growing on me at a slow pace, but it is certainly not as impenetrable as I'd originally felt. I think he was a great composer, and I love the erudition that he brings to his deeply avant-garde music. I feel like he's something of a Haydn or a JS Bach for the post-war avant-garde in America, am I wrong...?


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## starthrower

Sketches, you might want to check out the Carter disc on the budget Apex label. It includes his oboe concerto among other pieces. And as I already mentioned earlier in this thread vol 7 on the Bridge label is loaded with great pieces.


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## flamencosketches

starthrower said:


> Sketches, you might want to check out the Carter disc on the budget Apex label. It includes his oboe concerto among other pieces. And as I already mentioned earlier in this thread vol 7 on the Bridge label is loaded with great pieces.


Thanks, I'd forgotten about that Apex disc. I'll look into the Bridge as well.


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## starthrower

flamencosketches said:


> Thanks, I'd forgotten about that Apex disc. I'll look into the Bridge as well.


Actually it's cheaper to buy a used copy of the original Erato CD.
https://www.amazon.com/Oboe-Concert...r+oboe+concerto&qid=1565447009&s=music&sr=1-4

The Bridge CD is available new from Presto.
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7942301--music-of-elliott-carter-vol-7


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## flamencosketches

A damn fine work. Anyone who is familiar with Carter's music knows that this is more easygoing than the music he would later become known for, but this is seriously interesting and admirable. It's almost like a more angular love child of the piano works of Ravel and Schoenberg, or something like that. Really, it's quite original, and makes me wish he'd written more music for solo piano. The late Mr. Jacobs delivers an excellent performance, though I would also like to hear Rosen take on this piece.

Is this recording included in the Carter Nonesuch Retrospective box set? I'm starting to think that may be the next step for me. Though like I said I still need to hear Rosen play this as I'm a big fan of his. Don't know Jacobs quite so well but now I want to explore his recordings further.


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## starthrower

Good piece, Sketches! The Rosen performance is in the 4 CD set C.R. Plays Modern Piano Music. Check out Carter's later piano piece, Night Fantasies. I like this one too. It was recorded by Rosen, and Pierre-Laurent Aimard. The Aimard Teldec/Erato box features a ton of great modern piano music. https://www.amazon.com/Complete-War...&s=music&sprefix=pierre-la,popular,195&sr=1-2

This CD has both Carter pieces by Rosen.
https://www.amazon.com/Elliott-Cart...s=charles+rosen&qid=1565816645&s=music&sr=1-3


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## flamencosketches

That "Rosen Plays Modern Piano Music" looks like a great little box, but I'd be a lot tempted to go for it if I didn't just buy a CD with one of his recordings of Carter's Double Concerto (not sure if it's one of the two included in this box), and if I didn't already have all of those (phenomenal) Webern recordings in the Boulez/Sony Webern edition. Still may be worth it for everything else, though. Rosen was a killer. I've been looking at that Bridge disc too. Probably going to snag that at some point. I like that it includes a conversation with the composer. It seems that Rosen and Carter were very close. 

Thanks for pointing me in the direction of that Pierre-Laurent Aimard box. That looks excellent! I love what little I've heard of Aimard's playing.


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## starthrower

If you're not in a hurry, check Presto Classical around Thanksgiving time. They have a huge annual box set sale for about two months where you can buy stuff at a huge discount. They had that Aimard box for about 14 dollars. I should have grabbed the big Rosen Sony box before it sold out.


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## Mandryka

So, pianophiles, what do you think of Carter's Night Fantasies? I hear it as an impressionist representation of a sleepness night in music. It seems strange to get representational music at the late 20th century avant garde - but maybe Carter was no longer af the cutting edge of the avant garde when he wrote it (1980.) Favourite performances are probably Stephen Drury's, and Charles Rosen's. But really there are lots of good ones. 

It's well served on record. I have 

Stephen Drury 
Ursula Oppens (x2) 
Charles Rosen
Hakon Austbo 
Winston Choi
Pierre Laurent Aimard 
Aleck Karis (I haven't heard this one, it's on spotify.) 
Gilbert Kalish 
Paul Jacobs
Mari Asakawa


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## starthrower

I don't hear it that way. Maybe he wrote it while being up late nights. I don't know?


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## millionrainbows

Mandryka said:


> So, pianophiles, what do you think of Carter's Night Fantasies? I hear it as an impressionist representation of a sleepness night in music. It seems strange to get representational music at the late 20th century avant garde - but maybe Carter was no longer af the cutting edge of the avant garde when he wrote it (1980.) Favourite performances are probably Stephen Drury's, and Charles Rosen's. But really there are lots of good ones.


There has always been an element of "representation" in Carter; see the string quartets, influenced by Charles Ives' "arguments-agreements-discussions" in his second string quartet. Carter has linked some of his works to literary characters, in which different "roles" are played out by instruments. This all goes back to music being expressed as "gestures."


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## Mandryka

millionrainbows said:


> There has always been an element of "representation" in Carter; see the string quartets, influenced by Charles Ives' "arguments-agreements-discussions" in his second string quartet. Carter has linked some of his works to literary characters, in which different "roles" are played out by instruments. This all goes back to music being expressed as "gestures."


Yes, thanks. I think you're right. I listened to Hakon Austbo play it after making that post, it's a fine piece of music and I think it's a bit of a shame that Carter didn't write more for piano.

Austbo's an interesting pianist who tends to **** off people who want to uphold standards, so that's a good sign, sometime I'd like to explore what he's up to a bit more deeply.

The way this software replaces **** with stars makes me think of the way some Jews replace God with G-d. It's a sign of veneration for the word ****!


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## millionrainbows

Mandryka said:


> Yes, thanks. I think you're right. I listened to Hakon Austbo play it after making that post, it's a fine piece of music and I think it's a bit of a shame that Carter didn't write more for piano.
> 
> Austbo's an interesting pianist who tends to **** off people who want to uphold standards, so that's a good sign, sometime I'd like to explore what he's up to a bit more deeply.
> 
> The way this software replaces **** with stars makes me think of the way some Jews replace God with G-d. It's a sign of veneration for the word ****!


Yes, I like Hakon Austbo as well. I became acquainted with his artistry through the works of Peter Schat. He did a recording of Webern lieder which I was disappointed in, but this was because of the singer. He's very good on everything I've heard.

Yes, this "representational" aspect of Carter is what, for me, distinguishes him from other "serialists" (I use that term very generally). This seems to give his work an element of continuity, if not literal narrative, which replaces what tonal factors do in tonal music. It's like serialism with a "story" of sorts. Listeners need this.


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## Bwv 1080

Aimard and Oppens are my favorites, but have not heard Austbo

Carter described the piece better than anyone, citing Schumann as a primary influence:

_Night Fantasies is a piano piece of continuously changing moods, suggesting the fleeting thoughts and feelings that pass through the mind during a period of wakefulness at night. The quiet, nocturnal evocation with which it begins and to which it returns occasionally, is suddenly broken by a flighty series of short phrases that emerge and disappear. This episode is followed by many others of contrasting characters and lengths that sometimes break in abruptly and at other, develop smoothly out of what has gone before. The work culminates in a loud periodic repetition of an emphatic chord that, as it dies away, brings the work to its conclusion.

In this score, I wanted to capture the fanciful, changeable quality of our inner life at a time when it is not dominated by strong, directive intentions or desires - to capture the poetic moodiness that, in an earlier romantic context, we employ in the works of Robert Schumann like Kreisleriana, Carnaval, and Davidsbündlertänze._


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## Bwv 1080

Mandryka said:


> So, pianophiles, what do you think of Carter's Night Fantasies? I hear it as an impressionist representation of a sleepness night in music. It seems strange to get representational music at the late 20th century avant garde - but maybe Carter was no longer af the cutting edge of the avant garde when he wrote it (1980.) Favourite performances are probably Stephen Drury's, and Charles Rosen's. But really there are lots of good ones.
> 
> It's well served on record. I have
> 
> Stephen Drury
> Ursula Oppens (x2)
> Charles Rosen
> Hakon Austbo
> Winston Choi
> Pierre Laurent Aimard
> Aleck Karis (I haven't heard this one, it's on spotify.)
> Gilbert Kalish
> Paul Jacobs
> Mari Asakawa


Eric Huebner has a good recording, paired with Kreisleriana like the Karis recording


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## Janspe

flamencosketches said:


> Would you say Carter softened up in his old age? I haven't heard any of his later pieces.


I don't know if softening up is the word I'd use, but _something_ definitely happened: his later works are much more transparent and almost lightweight in comparison to his earlier monsters (which I very much love as well!). Just take a look at that Ondine CD and then listen to some early works - the difference is very noticable. Still, Carter made absolutely no stylistic compromises and even in his later works he gives us no easy answers.


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## Bwv 1080

Janspe said:


> I don't know if softening up is the word I'd use, but _something_ definitely happened: his later works are much more transparent and almost lightweight in comparison to his earlier monsters (which I very much love as well!). Just take a look at that Ondine CD and then listen to some early works - the difference is very noticable. Still, Carter made absolutely no stylistic compromises and even in his later works he gives us no easy answers.


Carter cited a quote by Italian author Italo Calvino: "spero innanzitutto d'aver dimostrato che esiste una leggerezza della pensosità, così come tutti sappiamo che esiste una leggerezza della frivolezza; anzi, la leggerezza pensosa può far apparire la frivolezza come pesante e opaca." (Above all I hope to have shown that there is such a thing as a lightness of thoughtfulness, just as we know there is a lightness of frivolity. In fact, thoughtful lightness can make frivolity seem dull and heavy.)

directly in his intro to the 1990 piece Con Leggerezza Pensosa and continued to mention the idea of 'thoughtful lightness' to be an aesthetic goal of his later works


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## Janspe

I had the great privilege of borrowing the score of Carter's _Concerto for Orchestra_ from a library last week, and today I sat down with it all properly and sought out the Berstein/NYP recording - later I shall go through the score with the recordings of Boulez and Gielen as well. What fun!

I must say that listening to the piece - which I like very much - whilst following the score wasn't the easiest thing I've ever attempted. It really is quite a complicated piece, and I feel positively overwhelmed now. The piano and percussion parts helped a lot in my very unprofessional attempts to stay on the map...

What remains, however, is the vast scope and playfulness of Carter's _tour-de-force_ monster of a piece. I'm very fond of it indeed. Reading the associated poetry (by St. John Perse) that inspired Carter to write the piece provided very interesting insight into the work, though I'd hesitate calling it program music; Carter himself says that the piece isn't intented to represent word-to-word what is going on in the poems. Still, Carter was well-known for his love for the literary world, so exploring these things matter to me a lot.

I'm very much looking forward to revisiting the score with the X-ray interpretations of Boulez and Gielen - I really don't think this is the kind of repertoire where Berstein was at his best. Anyhow, it is still interesting to experience as many interpretations as possible, especially given that this piece is very unlikely to be performed live here in Finland any time soon.


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## flamencosketches

Janspe said:


> I had the great privilege of borrowing the score of Carter's _Concerto for Orchestra_ from a library last week, and today I sat down with it all properly and sought out the Berstein/NYP recording - later I shall go through the score with the recordings of Boulez and Gielen as well. What fun!
> 
> I must say that listening to the piece - which I like very much - whilst following the score wasn't the easiest thing I've ever attempted. It really is quite a complicated piece, and I feel positively overwhelmed now. The piano and percussion parts helped a lot in my very unprofessional attempts to stay on the map...
> 
> What remains, however, is the vast scope and playfulness of Carter's _tour-de-force_ monster of a piece. I'm very fond of it indeed. Reading the associated poetry (by St. John Perse) that inspired Carter to write the piece provided very interesting insight into the work, though I'd hesitate calling it program music; Carter himself says that the piece isn't intented to represent word-to-word what is going on in the poems. Still, Carter was well-known for his love for the literary world, so exploring these things matter to me a lot.
> 
> I'm very much looking forward to revisiting the score with the X-ray interpretations of Boulez and Gielen - I really don't think this is the kind of repertoire where Berstein was at his best. Anyhow, it is still interesting to experience as many interpretations as possible, especially given that this piece is very unlikely to be performed live here in Finland any time soon.


Don't sleep on the Knussen/London Sinfonietta. A phenomenal recording. That being said, I definitely need to seek out the Bernstein/NYPO recording (was that the world première recording...?)


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## Bwv 1080

Always wondered how many man-hours went into copying out the parts for Carter's Concerto for Orchestra


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