# Will the fat lady still sing?



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

"Anger in opera world at 'cruel' criticism of female soprano star's appearance"

http://www.theguardian.com/music/20...-angry-at-description-of-soprano-stars-weight


----------



## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

This stuff is going all over my social media at the present thanks to opera singing friends. And fair enough too - a bunch of saggy old men having a go at women for their looks in an art form that is (or should be) defined first and foremost by the quality of music and music-making. What a crock of %^&*


----------



## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

She's heavy, but far from ugly. Great singer. If all goes well this whole debacle will only make her more famous and successful.


----------



## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Singers should be judged first and foremost on their musical ability, and only secondarily, if that, on their appearance. I think this kind of treatment is uncalled for.


----------



## Posie (Aug 18, 2013)

With all of the male opera singers who are 30+ pounds overweight, a female singer gets no slack even in a trouser role.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Just a note. I read once that whenever you see the word "should," it's followed by a value judgment.


----------



## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

It's cruel, but oh so typical. Female tennis players & swimmers have been mocked for their appearance lately too. What is it with men? Why do so many think that they have the right to comment on the appearance of any woman? How will it help opera if female singers feel hounded into trading good health and equanimity for eating disorders & makeovers?

Angry & Despairing, but Unsurprised.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

I saw a segment -- I think on 60 minutes, or a like major television network show, where a female secretary was called in for a consult with her boss, and she went in prepared with a hidden microphone in her purse and she recorded that meeting.

She was informed, a few degrees to the right of implicit and several degrees to the left of specific, that she was expected to lose some weight and have breast augmentation surgery if she wanted to keep her job. 

She commented in this TV segment, (voice and face digitally masked) that this near imperative was delivered to her by a boss who is well overweight, who has a sagging pot belly and well-progressed male baldness.

I'm all for the comments about how one does or "should" look, as long as the rules and the game are the same for everyone, those critics included


----------



## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Gosh I was expecting something rotund, but far from it. Seems to me that the issue here is one of casting, costumes, direction and acting. In this opulent opera of beautiful people, critics clearly have expectations beyond the music, and so does the audience.

Tara looks quite pretty to me. Speaking as a red-blooded (lecherous?) male, if should could drop a few pounds she'd be a stunner. If you're going to be a fuller figured lady your voice has to be pretty damn good like, say, Jamie Barton.


----------



## JCarmel (Feb 3, 2013)

I think that if we met Tara, heard her voice, interacted with her personality....we might_ still _think she's a 'stunner' at whatever weight she presently is...the power of the whole personality to charm shouldn't be underestimated.
That said, it makes sense to present oneself to greatest effect in a dramatic part...& thus it would make some sense to lose some weight....but 'whatever' there is no place in a critical review for such highly personal remarks, irrespective of gender.


----------



## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

Y'know, alex, I'm sure Tara would be rapt with your assessment of her sexual attractiveness if she were on the prowl at Inverness's hottest nite spot (or maybe not?!). 

But actually she's singing at Glyndbourne.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

dgee said:


> Y'know, alex, I'm sure Tara would be rapt with your assessment of her sexual attractiveness if she were on the prowl at Inverness's hottest nite spot (or maybe not?!).
> 
> But actually she's singing at Glyndbourne.


We have to assume Alex is also a real stunner, with less than 10% body fat, the rest all taut muscle, that he is on or a bit above six feet in height, and that he has a face also stunning enough "to launch a thousand ships." Ha Haaaaa Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.


----------



## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

PetrB said:


> We have to assume Alex is also a real stunner, with less than 10% body fat, the rest all taut muscle, that he is on or a bit above six feet in height, and that he has a face also stunning enough "to launch a thousand ships." Ha Haaaaa Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.


Two-thousand ships, PetrB!


----------



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Ingélou said:


> What is it with men? Why do so many think that they have the right to comment on the appearance of any woman?


Maybe the fact that the woman is on the stage. She wears custome, make-up and all the other stuff supposed to make her look in a certain way. Commenting on her appearance, if free of unneccessary malice, is simply expressing your impression on certain aspect of spectacle.


----------



## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

PetrB said:


> We have to assume Alex is also a real stunner, with less than 10% body fat, the rest all taut muscle, that he is on or a bit above six feet in height, and that he has a face also stunning enough "to launch a thousand ships." Ha Haaaaa Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.


Oh spare me the attacks, you laughable keyboard warriors!


----------



## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Aramis said:


> Maybe the fact that the woman is on the stage. She wears custome, make-up and all the other stuff supposed to make her look in a certain way. Commenting on her appearance, if free of unneccessary malice, is simply expressing your impression on certain aspect of spectacle.


But to call her dumpy & unattractive is unnecessarily personal and bound to knock someone's confidence. These are men criticising a young woman in a sexist manner - par for the course in other fields besides opera, alas. As was pointed out in a similar article in our newspaper, opera critics don't pan male singers in the same way. The visual side of the opera - the setting, the costumes, the staging - fair enough; but not to cast aspersions on a young singer's body size instead of concentrating on the voice.


----------



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

I agree that it might go too far, but regarding this:



Ingélou said:


> As was pointed out in a similar article in our newspaper, opera critics don't pan male singers in the same way.


I don't know about critics, but female opera fans certainly do. Even on TC.


----------



## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

So much for fat soprano stereotypes.

It's surprising more than anything. Has the audience never watched Wagner? This girl would be the thinnest Fricka the world has seen. When did opera audiences start caring about this?

Besides, isn't Anna Netrebko still the darling of opera?


----------



## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Opera makes the news. Everywhere! 
Tara Erraught becomes (at least temporarily) famous, and no doubt in demand. Hope she's able to make the most of it.
Glyndebourne sells more tickets. 

I think the (non-opera-going) general public will be amazed as what is considered overweight in the opera world these days.


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

marinasabina said:


> With all of the male opera singers who are 30+ pounds overweight, a female singer gets no slack even in a trouser role.


Johan Botha gets a lot of sniggering and he's a fabulous singer too. Not to excuse these clowns (the critics), just saying.


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Couac Addict said:


> When did opera audiences start caring about this?


I think the audience for the lyric repertoire has different physical expectations from the singers, possibly because said singers have always been thinner. I might be wrong, I haven't thought long and hard about it. But the expectations are obvious when watching recent productions/DVDs.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Ingélou said:


> ...opera critics don't pan male singers in the same way.


Mad magazine certainly did, with its satires of multiple dressers struggling to get certain well-known tenors into their corsets. :lol:


----------



## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Mad magazine certainly did, with its satires of multiple dressers struggling to get certain well-known tenors into their corsets. :lol:


Oh, Mad magazine - Taggart & I used to love it. Thanks for the happy memory, KenOC!


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Personally I think it's all a bit of a storm in a teacup, and one that will probably do the young lady's career no harm at all, but one should note that both Strauss and Hofmannthal both had in mind a slim, boyish figure to play Octavian; the reasons for casting the role as a soprano were both physical and vocal. I do think that, whereas one might accept a slightly larger Sophie or Marschallin, it is much harder to get away with a little extra weight in a role like Octavian, or Cherubino.

I have seen quite a few Octavians in my time, both on stage and on video - Sena Jurinac, Agnes Baltsa, Anne Howells, Brigitte Fassbaender, among others - all slim, all physically believable and, as such, able to help us suspend disbelief and imagine Octavian really is a boy, though, if I'm honest, Jurinac does have something of the pantomime principal boy about her, which can also be a trap of the role. Anne Howells was actually the most convincingly boyish.

Size can matter sometimes, and others not. For instance I have the DVD of Caballe as Norma from Orange, where her size and relative immobility bother me hardly at all, whereas in a telecast from Japan of the famous Zeffirelli Covent Garden *Tosca*, it bothered me rather more. The set had a rather high parapet from which Tosca would jump to her death. I saw quite a few sopranos in this production, most of them much slighter figure. The final plunge to her death was meant to be a mad dash to the finish, but Caballe started her slow ascent to the parapet for her suicide much, much earlier than any of the other singers. The guards would have had to have been very slow indeed not to catch her. This is when suspending one's disbelief can be a problem.


----------



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

deggial said:


> Johan Botha gets a lot of sniggering and he's a fabulous singer too. Not to excuse these clowns (the critics), just saying.


The problem with Botha is that he is so huge that it seems to seriously affect his mobility. And his ability to express any kind of emotion with his body or face (at least in anything I have seen him in). He seems to have to sing sitting down a lot.

Same with Pavarotti at the end. There's a funny story in Lotfi Mansouri's autobiography about Lotfi becoming incandescent at finding a large hole cut in his scenery and finding out that it was made so that Pavarotti didn't have to climb up 3 steps to get over a barrier.

Compare that with for instance Angela Meade in Falstaff. She's a bigger girl but she was dashing across that stage with no problem.

Tara Erraught isn't anything more than curvy. I'll look forward to the stream to hear her singing and see her acting.


----------



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

GregMitchell said:


> Personally I think it's all a bit of a storm in a teacup, and one that will probably do the young lady's career no harm at all, but one should note that both Strauss and Hofmannthal both had in mind a slim, boyish figure to play Octavian; the reasons for casting the role as a soprano were both physical and vocal. I do think that, whereas one might accept a slightly larger Sophie or Marschallin, it is much harder to get away with a little extra weight in a role like Octavian, or Cherubino.


Well I'm sure that Beethoven had in mind a skeletal figure as Florestan in Fidelio, but it din't stop the Met casting Ben Heppner in the role. Karita Mattila couldn't even get her arms round his neck when she was singing about how gaunt he was. But as far as I can see the reviews mention his lack of acting but not his size.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Posted on another forum: "Full figured great contralto ERNESTINE SCHUMANN HEINK entered the Hall in Detroit to rehearse a concert. On her way to the podium she knocked over music and music stands and a few chairs whereupon conductor Ossip Gabrilowitsch gently suggested "Tina, why don't you walk sideways"? The amazed singer ruefully said "Ossip, can't you zee, wiz me dere iss NO SIDEVAYS."


----------



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

mamascarlatti said:


> he is so huge





> She's a bigger girl


You see, for a woman it's HUGE when it's HE, but when it's SHE, it's merely "a bigger girl".

So yeah, stop the sexism? Abolish sexes, it's the only way. (I hear there's movement working on it, it's called "Gender studies").


----------



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Aramis said:


> You see, for a woman it's HUGE when it's HE, but when it's SHE, it's merely "a bigger girl".


Not really. Sharon Sweet was the same kind of huge as Johan Botha. And possibly not quite as large. It's a question of size not gender. Interestingly she stopped singing due to all the comments on her weight. And she was a good singer. He on the other hand is still going despite his inability to act, which was the point of my comment in the first place. He is too big to get around the stage.


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

mamascarlatti said:


> Tara Erraught isn't anything more than curvy. I'll look forward to the stream to hear her singing and see her acting.


she's a lovely singer. She sang Sesto in the Munich _Clemenza_ in February and did very well I must say. I felt she needed to work on her acting but I think she might end up being better at comedy.


----------



## mirepoix (Feb 1, 2014)

Richard Morrison in The Times of London: _"Unbelievable, unsightly and unappealing." _

I did a quick Google image search for him - and found that apparently, he has no chin. Makes you think.


----------



## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

An ad hominem argument against the critic doesn't make sense. His job is to give opinions on what he hears and sees, not to compare the artist to himself. However I certainly won't defend his unnecessary rudeness.

Putting the (rather fetching) Tara aside, as in this case its seems a matter of production, direction and expectations...

...I'm not in the camp that says it's okay for you to be obese as long as you sing beautifully. Nor do I want singers to be stick thin. I wish them to be fit and healthy, the same as I wish for myself, family and friends.

Can we dismiss the notion that bigness is required to have a good operatic voice?


----------



## mirepoix (Feb 1, 2014)

In my world his rudeness makes it worthwhile to consider him a chinless wonder.
And as for the logical fallacy - oh dear. But I'm prepared to take that one on my own chin.


----------



## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Richard Morrison in The Times of London: "Unbelievable, unsightly and unappealing."

I did a quick Google image search for him - and found that apparently, he has no chin. Makes you think.

Why does it make you think? You do grasp that there are different expectations for actors as there are for critics... and yes opera singers are actresses and actors as well as singers. Opera is musical theater. We would likely laugh at a film that cast an older overweight actor as a seductress or teenage lover. By the same token I would have difficulty with an older Pavarotti and Sutherland in this scene:






I have the same difficulty with poorly acted or horribly staged/costumed productions. Opera is musical theater... but one can only suspend one's disbelief so far.

Having said this, there is no excuse for the critic's excessive rudeness. If he felt that the singer/actress in question was unsuitable for the role that is more the fault of the director and producer who cast an individual in a role in which they may have been fully suited as a vocalist, but not in appearance.


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

mirepoix said:


> In my world his rudeness makes it worthwhile to consider him a chinless wonder.


so does *bari-chunks*


----------



## mirepoix (Feb 1, 2014)

Yes, I do grasp. Perhaps you too can grasp the idea that not everyone uses a smiley or an emoticon at the end of a post. If you can then you'll understand my comment.
And again, there's no excuse for his rudeness.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Aramis said:


> I agree that it might go too far, but regarding this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There may also be talk of male flab, baldness and general unattractiveness, but what has stood out for me on TC in the opera category is that sort of post with chat focusing on things like 'Barihunks,' i.e the supposedly good looking male singers (learn a new word every day and additional comments about those 'Barihunks,' like 'New Boyfriend Material.'

The gender of the posters is not always clear, and funnily enough, I think a number of those like comments on the men are from men, though those maybe read like 'girl talk.'


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

mirepoix said:


> In my world his rudeness makes it worthwhile to consider him a chinless wonder.


All this talk about "chinless wonder" critics...I thought you were talking about Hans von Bülow.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

KenOC said:


> All this talk about "chinless wonder" critics...I thought you were talking about Hans von Bülow.


Good lord! One can only pray this specimen display we're looking at is from a recessive gene pool.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

PetrB said:


> There may also be talk of male flab, baldness and general unattractiveness, but what has stood out for me on TC in the opera category is that sort of post with chat focusing on things like 'Barihunks,' i.e the supposedly good looking male singers (learn a new word every day and additional comments about those 'Barihunks,' like 'New Boyfriend Material.'
> 
> The gender of the posters is not always clear, and funnily enough, I think a number of those like comments on the men are from men, though those maybe read like 'girl talk.'


Hmmmmmmmm.....

So. Those whimsical opera-singer fantasy-object threads are the ones that _stand out_ for you in the opera category? And you find it odd that posters on this thread in particular don't seem compelled to "clarify" their gender? And you are surprised that there might be men who, "funnily enough," enjoy commenting playfully on the beauty of other men?

Earth to PetrB: (Hel-_lo_-oh!) :lol:


----------



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Not to mention women who comment playfully on the beauty of other women, hehe.


----------



## Posie (Aug 18, 2013)

Expressing that you find a specific singer very attractive is not necessarily an implication that you want the less attractive singers to fix their imperfections or get off the stage.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

> Woodduck said:
> 
> 
> > Hmmmmmmmm.....
> ...


Polymorphous perverse.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

mirepoix said:


> Richard Morrison in The Times of London: _"Unbelievable, unsightly and unappealing." _
> 
> I did a quick Google image search for him - and found that apparently, he has no chin. Makes you think.


Morrison does not appear on stage though!


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The fact is that opera is supposed to be music theatre. When I hear this nonsense:

Writing for the Guardian website, fellow mezzo soprano Jennifer Johnstone, asked: "How, then, have we arrived at a point where opera is no longer about singing but about the physiques and looks of the singers, specifically the female singers?"

Opera is about the voice but it's also about the looks of the singers. Especially now we are in an age of filmed opera where close-ups are far more common. I have a DVD of mastersingers which I do not watch simply because the tenor looks as if he should have been playing Falstaff! The same hulking tenor also ruined a performance of Beethoven's Fidelio, even though he sang well. I mean, can you imagine a man who has been starving in a dungeon coming out looking about 20 stone?
I note that when HvK recorded butterfly he recorded it with Pavarotti, who sang wonderfully. But when the Ponnelle film came out Domingo played the role of Pinkerton. I wonder why?
Part of the problem with this Gylndebourne production appears to be the anachronistic nature of it which struggles against what the composer had in mind. Of course, the trouser role singer should be young and lithe - that is what is in the piece. There is no excuse for rudeness by critics but neither is there an excuse for the silly outpouring of indignation at people commenting that the lass looks wrong in the part.
As it is I noticed the production is being broadcast on June 8. The curious can go and see there. I doubt whether I will be among them!


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

If we want to hear the music of opera supremely well-sung, we are going to have to tolerate, at times, singers whose physical appearance is less than ideal. If we want a perfect theatrical illusion, we will at times have to tolerate less than the best singing. We will get some of both, as we always have. I come down more on the side of vocal and musical excellence; those who come down on the other side should be aware of which singers they cannot enjoy watching and avoid attending their performances. Frankly, I have my limits too: I can't bear to watch the Met DVD of _Tristan und Isolde_ with Jane Eaglen, whose extreme obesity is visually shocking, makes her incapable of moving well, and destroys all dramatic credibility (Ben Heppner, to be fair, is pretty bulky too, but not immobilized by fat). But we should not let the extreme cases determine the general rule. Everything is a compromise in such a complex art as opera, and some tolerance is required of all of us. Most of us think that it's worth it.


----------



## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

People are so oversensitive nowadays... Anyway, the article says nothing about the lady's own reaction, so it is possible that she actually could not care less about what some random people think of her.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

SiegendesLicht said:


> People are so oversensitive nowadays... Anyway, the article says nothing about the lady's own reaction, so it is possible that she actually could not care less about what some random people think of her.


The young lady in question has very sensibly refused to comment.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Whilst on this topic, though, there is such thing as having the _physique du role_. I remember critics saying that for instance the diminutive Scotto never really convinced as Norma, because she didn't have it, whereas the much larger Caballe did. Callas had it when she was both fat and thin.

Certainly, a slim figure is an advantage in the role of Octavian, given what the singer is likely to have to wear.

Surely what happened to Deborah Voigt here in London a few years ago was actually more heinous.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/3540667.stm


----------



## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

Anyone been to England lately? If anything, she's too lean to be playing a trouser role


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

PetrB said:


> funnily enough, I think a number of those like comments on the men are from men, though those maybe read like 'girl talk.'


why is it funny?


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

> DavidA: I note that when HvK recorded butterfly he recorded it with Pavarotti, who sang wonderfully. But when the Ponnelle film came out Domingo played the role of Pinkerton. I wonder why?


Well, at least Karajan didn't use Milli Vanilli.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> The young lady in question has very sensibly refused to comment.


When things are very-nearly condescending, it's scarcely worth your condescension.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

This is a blog from 2012. This whole business of size is hardly something new.

http://www.gramophone.co.uk/blog/the-gramophone-blog/in-opera-does-size-matter


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> This is a blog from 2012. This whole business of size is hardly something new.
> 
> http://www.gramophone.co.uk/blog/the-gramophone-blog/in-opera-does-size-matter


Not that I'm not fixated on looks myself, but at the expense of the music? If people are so perennially uptight about it, perhaps they should be reading the_ Huffington Post _and_ People _magazine and not _Opera Quarterly _and_ Grammophone_.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Not that I'm not fixated on looks myself, but at the expense of the music? If people are so perennially uptight about it, perhaps they should be reading the_ Huffington Post _and_ People _magazine and not _Opera Quarterly _and_ Grammophone_.


Can't I at least dream of an Isolde who looks like Marschallin Blair? Please?


----------



## SilenceIsGolden (May 5, 2013)

GregMitchell said:


> Personally I think it's all a bit of a storm in a teacup, and one that will probably do the young lady's career no harm at all, but one should note that both Strauss and Hofmannthal both had in mind a slim, boyish figure to play Octavian; the reasons for casting the role as a soprano were both physical and vocal. I do think that, whereas one might accept a slightly larger Sophie or Marschallin, it is much harder to get away with a little extra weight in a role like Octavian, or Cherubino.
> 
> I have seen quite a few Octavians in my time, both on stage and on video - Sena Jurinac, Agnes Baltsa, Anne Howells, Brigitte Fassbaender, among others - all slim, all physically believable and, as such, able to help us suspend disbelief and imagine Octavian really is a boy, though, if I'm honest, Jurinac does have something of the pantomime principal boy about her, which can also be a trap of the role. Anne Howells was actually the most convincingly boyish.
> 
> Size can matter sometimes, and others not. For instance I have the DVD of Caballe as Norma from Orange, where her size and relative immobility bother me hardly at all, whereas in a telecast from Japan of the famous Zeffirelli Covent Garden *Tosca*, it bothered me rather more. The set had a rather high parapet from which Tosca would jump to her death. I saw quite a few sopranos in this production, most of them much slighter figure. The final plunge to her death was meant to be a mad dash to the finish, but Caballe started her slow ascent to the parapet for her suicide much, much earlier than any of the other singers. The guards would have had to have been very slow indeed not to catch her. This is when suspending one's disbelief can be a problem.


Oh I absolutely agree; the criticism in this case seems to be in that the singer's appearance doesn't match the _expectations_ for this particular role. That being said, when I saw the title of the thread and the link to the article, I was expecting a singer who was comparable in size to a Jane Eaglen, so when I saw the pictures of young Tara Erraught I couldn't help but let out a chuckle. She looks lovely and is a very normal, healthy weight. I personally wouldn't have any trouble believing her in the role, but maybe my threshold for being able to suspend disbelief is higher than some others. For me a certain musical intelligence and good acting go a long way in allowing me to overlook the physical realities on stage.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Can't I at least dream of an Isolde who looks like Marschallin Blair? Please?


Absolutely!. . . _I_ do.

Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.

'Narcissus' here. Paging 'Echo.'


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Can't I at least dream of an Isolde who looks like Marschallin Blair? Please?











How about this one?


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> View attachment 42480
> 
> 
> How about this one?


Total Goddess. Direct from Valhalla. Salaams all the way.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> View attachment 42480
> 
> 
> How about this one?


My heavens! You certainly have straightened me out! No more barihunks for this boy!


----------



## sabrina (Apr 26, 2011)

We live in world where beauty is awarded, at least by pure admiration. A compromise may be made if other talents prevail. That's why we loved Pavarotti or Monserat Caballe. As I notice there are not many names like that, easy to understand why. 
Nowadays there is a famous, beautiful soprano, with a flawed technique, and when she gained weight, she looked like another famous puppet from Muppets. This is the world we created...


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Well, at least Karajan didn't use Milli Vanilli.


When Karajan was asked once what his contribution to opera was he said: " I got all those fat ladies off the stage!" At one opera he cast and conducted in the 1950s the critiques were intrigued by the slim ladies waiting in the wings and assumed they must be dancers. They were, of course, the singers!


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

DavidA said:


> When Karajan was asked once what his contribution to opera was he said: " I got all those fat ladies off the stage!" At one opera he cast and conducted in the 1950s the critiques were intrigued by the slim ladies waiting in the wings and assumed they must be dancers. They were, of course, the singers!


Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.

But then, we all use the tools the gods give us. Why_ should _good looking people be discriminated against? Why can't voice and looks go hand-in-hand?--- especially if people love celebrating beauty in all of its facets.


----------



## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

It's pretty obvious to me that theatre of any kind, though a visual art form, yet involves a certain use of the imagination. I'm a younger opera lover but have always accepted with little trouble the fact that staged opera quite often involves some sort of compromise -- e.g. a Nemorino in his forties, an overweight Tosca, a fair-skinned Otello made up to look swarthy, etc.

I disagree, though, with those who say things like, "When Birgit Nilsson (or whomever) sang, I forgot all about her size and completely accepted her as Salome (or whomever)" and conclude from such an experience that in opera, physical appearance doesn't, or shouldn't, matter. You simply can't get away from the fact that staged opera has a visual as well as an aural component. In the comments section of that article there was a remark by someone who said that Joan Sutherland cared very much about the appearance she presented onstage; insofar as her physique allowed she wanted to look like the young, maidenly Lucia or Amina, so she watched her weight and spent hours with the costumer being fitted for corsets, slenderizing gowns, etc. I believe this is what singers have to do -- not necessarily diet, but have a care as to how they appear to their audiences.

On the other hand, I do get annoyed when people complain that so and so doesn't "look like how Gilda (or whomever) is supposed to look." Maybe our ideas about how certain characters can look should change! In real life, is every young girl in love necessarily slim? If only skinny, "beautiful" people fell in love or had adventures, then most people would lead boring, loveless lives! Years ago on a Met intermission feature, one guest remarked sarcastically, "Of _course_ Gilda can't be sung by a plump soprano. I mean, no jester would have a fat daughter!":lol: I agree with the point he was trying to make!


----------



## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

sabrina said:


> We live in world where beauty is awarded, at least by pure admiration. A compromise may be made if other talents prevail. That's why we loved Pavarotti or Monserat Caballe. As I notice there are not many names like that, easy to understand why.
> Nowadays there is a famous, beautiful soprano, with a flawed technique, and when she gained weight, she looked like another famous puppet from Muppets. This is the world we created...


You're talking about Anna Netrebko. There have _always_ been singers with flaws in their techniques. Maria Callas had pronounced register breaks; Renata Scotto had a high register that even in her prime could be wiry; Jon Vickers had trouble with the highest notes of the tenor range; Montserrat Caballe lacked a genuine trill. It's not "the world we created"; it's always existed. Nobody's perfect, not even the golden voices of the past.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Bellinilover said:


> I disagree, though, with those who say things like, "When Birgit Nilsson (or whomever) sang, I forgot all about her size and completely accepted her as Salome (or whomever)" and conclude from such an experience that in opera, physical appearance doesn't, or shouldn't, matter. You simply can't get away from the fact that staged opera has a visual as well as an aural component. In the comments section of that article there was a remark by someone who said that Joan Sutherland cared very much about the appearance she presented onstage; insofar as her physique allowed she wanted to look like the young, maidenly Lucia or Amina, so she watched her weight and spent hours with the costumer being fitted for corsets, slenderizing gowns, etc. I believe this is what singers have to do -- not necessarily diet, but have a care as to how they appear to their audiences.
> 
> e!


Joan Sutherland couldn't do much about her height, however! She was 6'2" I believe! She liked performing with Pavarotti as his size made her look less tall. She hated performing opposite small tenors!
I remember when she retired. She just said, "I don't want people saying 'when is the poor old thing going to give up!'" She was conscious of her age too!


----------



## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Joan Sutherland couldn't do much about her height, however! She was 6'2" I believe! She liked performing with Pavarotti as his size made her look less tall. She hated performing opposite small tenors!
> I remember when she retired. She just said, "I don't want people saying 'when is the poor old thing going to give up!'" She was conscious of her age too!


Yes, I was very surprised to read online that she was 6'2", because I'm sure I recall reading in a book once that she was 5'9", and that one reason she was so glad to sing with Pavarotti was because, at 6', he was taller than she was!


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Bellinilover said:


> Yes, I was very surprised to read online that she was 6'2", because I'm sure I recall reading in a book once that she was 5'9", and that one reason she was so glad to sing with Pavarotti was because, at 6', he was taller than she was!


One answer on the internet puts her at 5'10" so I may have misread the article - It may have been Pav who was 6'2". She certainly liked singing with Pav as she was a large woman and he made her appear less large!

While looking up the question of Joan's height I found this which amused me:

Joan Sutherland's approach to her art was characteristically matter-of-fact. She admitted to thinking about something else when directors explained their concepts to her: "I can't bear it when they ask what the motivation is behind this or that. Eventually I work out why I'm supposed to be doing what I'm doing. By that time, the director has usually gone to Timbuktu or Bullamakanka [a mythical Australian destination]."
She had little time for experimentation, once venturing the heartfelt wish that directors would stage Wagner "in the way Wagner wanted". When Australian Opera unveiled some abstract gauzes painted by Sir Sydney Nolan for a production of Il Trovatore, she was less than impressed. "What's that meant to be?" she asked of a yellowish blur. It was the moon, someone told her. "Looks like a fried egg to me," she muttered.

About her height she once said: "It's not that I am so tall," she guffawed cheerfully, as she took her place on a puffy sofa. "It is that tenors are so small."

She went to learn stage movement at the opera school, where she became more self-conscious than ever about her height, her prominent chin and her strong physique. "I always knew," she would confess later, "that I just wasn't cut out for a 15-year-old Madam Butterfly or a consumptive Mimi."

Sutherland was to rank as one of the first ladies of international opera, yet she never behaved like a prima donna. As she would explain herself: "You couldn't possibly be a prima donna in my family, because if you showed even a hint of temperament you'd have been packed off to bed without any supper." And so throughout her career she would be found joking and laughing uproariously in her dressing-room only minutes after giving an overwhelming performance of some tragic operatic heroine.

Dame Edith Evans said of her: "One of God's pranks was to make Joan an overgrown schoolgirl and then give her a divine voice."


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I notice Norman Lebrecht has come out hot with indignation at the critics who have criticised the shape of the lady. As Lebrecht is known for his own waspish (and sometimes inaccurate) comments, it would seem a case of pots and kettles calling each other!


----------



## sabrina (Apr 26, 2011)

Bellinilover said:


> You're talking about Anna Netrebko. There have _always_ been singers with flaws in their techniques. Maria Callas had pronounced register breaks; Renata Scotto had a high register that even in her prime could be wiry; Jon Vickers had trouble with the highest notes of the tenor range; Montserrat Caballe lacked a genuine trill. It's not "the world we created"; it's always existed. Nobody's perfect, not even the golden voices of the past.


Not difficult to guess! I would never compare A.Netrebko with Callas, Caballe, even Renata Scotto...You are right that nobody is perfect, and that's what we get from our genes. But beauty is older man's mind reflection. Young children just learn to acknowledge what's beautiful in our society...


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

It seems that the young lady's Octavian was more incongruous because the Marschillain and the Sophie were very slim. It also appears Richard Jones' production is a bit of a disaster from the reviews.
There is also another stinker apparently, at the ENO. A Cosi that has little to do with Mozart and da Ponte. What a good job we have these genius directors making up for the lack of talent in the composer!


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> When Karajan was asked once what his contribution to opera was he said: " I got all those fat ladies off the stage!" At one opera he cast and conducted in the 1950s the critiques were intrigued by the slim ladies waiting in the wings and assumed they must be dancers. They were, of course, the singers!


One of those ladies was Elisabeth Schwarzkopf.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Bellinilover said:


> "Of _course_ Gilda can't be sung by a plump soprano. I mean, no jester would have a fat daughter!":lol: I agree with the point he was trying to make!


I'd say the main reason Gilda can't be too heavy is the fact that both Sparafuclie and Rigoletto have to carry her :lol:


----------



## Philmwri (Apr 8, 2011)

It's pretty sad but opera is just like any other genre and looks do matter sometimes. Talent is always going to cherished in opera but good looks don't hurt. It's very unfortunate that it's that way but looks count(sometimes more than talent) in today's society.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

> Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
> When Karajan was asked once what his contribution to opera was he said: " I got all those fat ladies off the stage!" At one opera he cast and conducted in the 1950s the critiques were intrigued by the slim ladies waiting in the wings and assumed they must be dancers. They were, of course, the singers!
> 
> GregMitchell: One of those ladies was Elisabeth Schwarzkopf.












"Elisabeth Schwarzkopf walks onto the stage at a concert with the Chicago Symphony, radiantly glamorous. A first-timer turns to a friend and whispers in awe, "She _sings_, too?"

- Ethan Mordden, _Opera Anecdotes_, (Oxford University Press, 1985)


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

The fat ladies have sung many times, despite what critics will say.
Many of those fat (and not so fat) ladies were earning, for that one night of singing, at least or more than the critics got paid for an entire month


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

PetrB said:


> The fat ladies have sung many times, despite what critics will say.
> Many of those fat (and not so fat) ladies were earning, for that one night of singing, at least or more than the critics got paid for an entire month


With the market for newspaper music critics being what it is (few are left), I imagine that some of these fat ladies are paid more per performance than their critics make in a year. That makes me feel warm and fuzzy for some reason.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

KenOC said:


> With the market for newspaper music critics being what it is (few are left), I imagine that some of these fat ladies are paid more per performance than their critics make in a year. That makes me feel warm and fuzzy for some reason.


Mind you earning power does not necessarily mean great musicianship. The Spice Girls were great earners!


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Mind you earning power does not necessarily mean great musicianship. The Spice Girls were great earners!


So hey, you got something against the Spice Girls? :lol: And anyway, they're not fat.


----------



## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Girl power, y'all.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

KenOC said:


> So hey, you got something against the Spice Girls? :lol: And anyway, they're not fat.


You, too, can grow up to marry David Beckham.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

PetrB said:


> You, too, can grow up to marry David Beckham.


In my state, that would be legal. Well, except for already being married, anyway.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

KenOC said:


> So hey, you got something against the Spice Girls? :lol: And anyway, they're not fat.


 Just pointing out that you can be a big earner with little or no talent!


----------



## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

The first Octavian was none other than Eva von der Osten:










hardly a stunner, and not very slim, either. Anyway, we tend to apply 21st century common views on beauty and ideal weight of a human being, while certainly this has not remained the same, and it has changed along history, and different cultures.






Ms. von der Osten was a great singer (by the way, she was also the aunt of Wolfgang Windgassen), and she was 30 years old when she premiered the role of Octavian in Dresden. Let's read a review of her performance:

"We were looking at the oversized figure of Ms. von der Osten, when she started to sing, taking great care in not moving her weight from one foot to the other, so her voice was not drowned by the groans of the floor... After the performance, I asked to Mr. Strauss if a more slender singer would have been preferable in the role of Octavian. He said: Music is the art of filtering. The audience must be able to filter noises, lights, the appearance of a singer... or even an argument with his wife (and he looked to Ms. Strauss with a grin)'"

So, nothing new under the Sun, really.

For some fans, staging, acting, physical appearance of the singers... are relevant, or even very relevant, and they have a right to that. The same right that other fans, myself included, have to disregard almost everything else compared to the music, the voices and the *vocal* acting. Personally, I don't care about remarks on the beauty, or lack of beauty, of a performer. I think that's fair game, if done with some elegance and good taste. But for me, these kind of things never distract me from what I really love in Opera.


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

^ I guess this should settle what Octavian "is supposed to" look like. Somebody actually posted a picture of Eva von der Osten as Octavian in the comments of one of the many guardian articles on this, yet people just merrily went on throwing comments on both sides of the argument


----------



## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

GregMitchell said:


> I'd say the main reason Gilda can't be too heavy is the fact that both Sparafuclie and Rigoletto have to carry her :lol:


Yeah, apparently when Sutherland sang Gilda at the Met, Sparafucile brought her onstage in the last scene with the help of an assistant!


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Philmwri said:


> It's pretty sad but opera is just like any other genre and looks do matter sometimes. Talent is always going to cherished in opera but good looks don't hurt. It's very unfortunate that it's that way but looks count(sometimes more than talent) in today's society.


It's the same in any staged performance. A woman might be a brilliant actress but she is hardly likely to land a leading part in a romantic drama unless she is reasonably slim and good looking. Just life. Opera singers have, of course, got away with it because of the beauty of their voices.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Bellinilover said:


> Yeah, apparently when Sutherland sang Gilda at the Met, Sparafucile brought her onstage in the last scene with the help of an assistant!


On the other hand, if Pavarotti were the Duke, and a small, slim soprano was Gilda, you'd think Rigoletto might suspect something when the sack he gets is a lot lighter than he expected.


----------



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Why would you like to have "stunner" woman as Octavian, how realistic could it be? Sure, fat lady will require suspension of disbelief. But when, say, Elina Garanca performed the role, now THAT was a suspense of belief. A young boy, yeah? So why do I find "him" so spellbinding, being a male? It's just the other way around. Too much or wrong kind of good looks can also work not-so-much in favour of making the character look like it should.


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

does Garanca _actually_ look like a 17 year old boy? or does she look like a slim, more or less androgynous woman? frankly I've never seen an Octavian that looked like a 17 year old boy, but I've seen a few that looked tall and slim, which is what I think people are expecting. I've also seen a larger number who, regardless of looks, actually tried (and few who managed) to act like a 17 year boy would. For me that's what it's about.


----------



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

deggial said:


> does Garanca _actually_ look like a 17 year old boy? or does she look like a slim, more or less androgynous woman? frankly I've never seen an Octavian that looked like a 17 year old boy, but I've seen a few that looked tall and slim, which is what I think people are expecting. I've also seen a larger number who, regardless of looks, *actually tried (and few who managed) to act like a 17 year boy would. For me that's what it's about*.


A few years ago when I got back into opera, knowing even less about it than I do now, I bought the Glyndebourne Giulio Cesare. I got such a shock when Giulio, after striding manfully up the stairs and surveyed his conquered land, turned around, opened his mouth and turned out to be a woman. Sarah Connolly really "gets" moving and walking in a masculine fashion.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Aramis said:


> Why would you like to have "stunner" woman as Octavian, how realistic could it be? Sure, fat lady will require suspension of disbelief. But when, say, Elina Garanca performed the role, now THAT was a suspense of belief. A young boy, yeah? So why do I find "him" so spellbinding, being a male? It's just the other way around. Too much or wrong kind of good looks can also work not-so-much in favour of making the character look like it should.


To me this is the problem with the Octavian in the discussion. She is certainly a well rounded young lady who appears quite pretty, but when she is dressed up as a man she does not look like the handsome young youth.
One must always remember that publicity photographs of singers try to do the singers a favour. I have seen photographs which make Sopranos look reasonably attractive whereas in actual fact they are obese and overweight, looking as if the stage might cave in!


----------



## Guest (May 24, 2014)

SilenceIsGolden said:


> She looks lovely and is a very normal, healthy weight.


This is both a subjective view and irrelevant.

Unless we are going to go more deeply into the politics of appearance and gender (for example, whether it matters that comments on appearance come from a male or female), let's just stick to the main point: it's not whether the critics were either accurate or justified in what they wrote, it's their manner of expression that is unacceptable (also a subjective view, of course).

But 'acceptable' doesn't sell papers.


----------



## Guest (May 24, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Just pointing out that you can be a big earner with little or no talent!


They did have talent...for singing catchy pop songs, successfully inhabiting the world of celebrity and making a lot of money. These talents may not appeal to you, but it is simply untrue to suggest that they had little or none.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The most convincing Octavian I ever saw was Anne Howells Slim, but not particularly tall, her figure was undeniably that of a woman (the style of breeches in that period is never likely to disguise the female form), but she avoided all the pitfalls of playing it like a pantomime principal boy, as many do, and simply became the young Prince Rofrano, so convincing that she was still the same boy when playing Mariandl. Her mannerisms, everything about her demeanour was male. The suspension of one's disbelief required no effort at all. Vocally, I've heard a few better, none who has convinced so well.


----------



## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

It's pretty sad but opera is just like any other genre and looks do matter sometimes. Talent is always going to cherished in opera but good looks don't hurt. It's very unfortunate that it's that way but looks count(sometimes more than talent) in today's society.

Why is this "sad" and "unfortunate"? Opera is a theatrical form. That makes it a visual art form as well as a musical art form. No one would think that it is "sad" or "unfortunate" that painters and sculptors concern themselves with visual "beauty". We are not surprised that film-makers choose attractive actors and actresses for many roles. Again, this has nothing whatsoever to do with "our society". Visual "beauty" has always been a prized commodity... in the arts and elsewhere.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

MacLeod said:


> They did have talent...for singing catchy pop songs, successfully inhabiting the world of celebrity and making a lot of money. These talents may not appeal to you, but it is simply untrue to suggest that they had little or none.


Perhaps I should have said 'musical talent'.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Perhaps I should have said 'musical talent'.


Haha. Maybe.

I have not been able to so far find any musical talent in One Direction, for instance.


----------



## Cantabile (May 24, 2014)

Singing is hard work. It takes a great deal of physical energy to perform. No matter what size, a singer needs a pretty good level of fitness for the stage and I suppose there is a point where it is possible to be too big to be able to manage, but that's certainly an extreme. We do expect singers to be good actors, which is a reasonable expectation. That they all look like Hollywood stars is not a reasonable expectation. If looks count more than the voice, then a production will look fabulous but will be vocally very disappointing or frustrating - I've seen professional companies hire some very attractive singers who look great and can act, but at times lack the vocal size and colour and sheer brilliance to manage the parts.


----------



## Cantabile (May 24, 2014)

A good costume designer can do wonders......


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Cantabile said:


> I've seen professional companies hire some very attractive singers who look great and can act, but at times lack the vocal size and colour and sheer brilliance to manage the parts.


Which is to suggest that only large singers have large voices, but that is not necessarily true.


----------



## Cantabile (May 24, 2014)

I did not mean to imply that only large singers have large voices at all. It certainly isn't so! My point is really that when a company places more emphasis on looks than on the voice or doesn't at least rate them equally, there can be problems. Mind you, singers mature and develop vocally over time, too, which is exciting to witness.


----------



## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Cantabile said:


> Singing is hard work. It takes a great deal of physical energy to perform. No matter what size, a singer needs a pretty good level of fitness for the stage and I suppose there is a point where it is possible to be too big to be able to manage, but that's certainly an extreme. We do expect singers to be good actors, which is a reasonable expectation. That they all look like Hollywood stars is not a reasonable expectation. If looks count more than the voice, then a production will look fabulous but will be vocally very disappointing or frustrating - I've seen professional companies hire some very attractive singers who look great and can act, but at times lack the vocal size and colour and sheer brilliance to manage the parts.


It depends what you call a 'pretty good level of fitness'. They have vocal stamina maybe?

I don't expect to see a beauty pageant at the opera, but I do want to see performers who are taking care of their health and trying to be the best actor they can be. Shouldn't that be any singer who gives a damn? And I want to see companies casting on that basis. Suspension of disbelief at the opera is hard enough already without having to witness 150 kg Rodolfos and Mimis pleading poverty.

Surely a little glamour on the opera stage has to be a good thing.


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Alexander said:


> but I do want to see performers who are taking care of their health and trying to be the best actor they can be. Shouldn't that be any singer who gives a damn?


I think most singers do take care of their health yet most people have average, unglamorous bodies. There's only so much they can do with what they've got. Like others have said above, charisma goes well beyond body type.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Haha. Maybe.
> 
> I have not been able to so far find any musical talent in One Direction, for instance.


I had to look up One Direction on YouTube. A few minutes were enough to persuade me not to walk in that direction.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I had to look up One Direction on YouTube. A few minutes were enough to persuade me not to walk in that direction.


Thank God there is more than one direction one can travel in!


----------



## Guest (May 25, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Perhaps I should have said 'musical talent'.


Singing catchy pop songs isn't a musical talent?


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

The more beautiful Callas became the worse her voice sounded. In her final concert she was simply gorgeous but unlistenable to me.
I wonder why they don't use soprano counter tenors for Octavian. Phillippe Jaroussky would look marvelous and the men and women would want to kiss those lips;-)
Rysenek, Nilsson and Varnay were all normal sized women with huge voices for the first decade of their dramatic soprano careers. Eaglen was enormous but it didn't bother me in a house because her voice was so wonderful in her early years. I can't buy her on DVD, though. Her vast weight became a problem as she aged as her breath support waned as she passed her early 40's.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> The more beautiful Callas became the worse her voice sounded. In her final concert she was simply gorgeous but unlistenable to me.
> I wonder why they don't use soprano counter tenors for Octavian. Phillippe Jaroussky would look marvelous and the men and women would want to kiss those lips;-)
> Rysenek, Nilsson and Varnay were all normal sized women with huge voices for the first decade of their dramatic soprano careers. Eaglen was enormous but it didn't bother me in a house because her voice was so wonderful in her early years. I can't buy her on DVD, though. Her vast weight became a problem as she aged as her breath support waned as she passed her early 40's.


Well, I suppose if you equate size with being thin. Even in her early days, Callas wasn't always monstrously fat, more statuesque. She looks quite beautiful here in a photo from the early 1950s.









I think she was at her most stunning in the late 1950s and early 1960s, when, admittedly the voice was in decline, though her physical appearance no doubt contributed greatly to the success of, say, her Violettas in Lisbon and London in 1958. Even in sound only, the London performance is without doubt the greatest recorded example of her Violetta we have. It might have sounded prettier when she first sang it in Mexico in 1951, but we don't get the incredible psychological insights. Had Callas not lost all that weight, she would not have become the artist she did. Whatever the effects on her voice, some of her greatest performances were post weight loss. This is hardly surprising when you consider what she was striving for; a total identification with the drama through both voice and movement. She was a stage animal, not just a singer.

As for the late concerts of the 1970s, I too prefer not to listen to them. Listening to the pale shadow of a once great voice just makes me very sad. She was in her 50s, and though she looked glamorous, I don't think she looked as stunning (how could it be otherwise?) as she had done in the years of her glory when she was in her 30s and early 40s.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

GregMitchell said:


> Well, I suppose if you equate size with being thin. Even in her early days, Callas wasn't always monstrously fat, more statuesque. She looks quite beautiful here in a photo from the early 1950s.
> 
> View attachment 42673
> 
> ...


Compared to Audrey Hepburn, her idol, she was fat, but compared to Eaglen, pre op Voigt, Blythe, early Norman, and Marc she was svelt. Statuesque is the word for early Maria... I agree. You will have no trouble supporting the voice as a slender singer if you learn your craft that way, but if you learn obese and lose weight the voice almost always suffers. This happened to Jessye Norman who lost 100 lbs, was still a big lady, but never had the same degree of breath support again IMHO as she had at 350+. Andrea Gruber before the surgery and drug issues was very impressive. Afterwards....well. Caballe lost weight, she looked better, but critics said the voice suffered. I think she quickly and gladly gained it back. Sutherland was much slimmer in her early days but felt that weighing more aided her to her all important breath support. She should know... Pav said she had the best breath support of any singer he knew. She became slimmer when she retired.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Compared to Audrey Hepburn, her idol, she was fat, but compared to Eaglen, pre op Voigt, Blythe, early Norman, and Marc she was svelt. Statuesque is the word for early Maria... I agree. You will have no trouble supporting the voice as a slender singer if you learn your craft that way, but if you learn obese and lose weight the voice almost always suffers. This happened to Jessye Norman who lost 100 lbs, was still a big lady, but never had the same degree of breath support again IMHO as she had at 350+. Andrea Gruber before the surgery and drug issues was very impressive. Afterwards....well. Caballe lost weight, she looked better, but critics said the voice suffered. I think she quickly and gladly gained it back. Sutherland was much slimmer in her early days but felt that weighing more aided her to her all important breath support. She should know... Pav said she had the best breath support of any singer he knew. She became slimmer when she retired.


I don't doubt or disagree with anything you say. One has to remember though that, with Callas, it was never just about voice, and for me, there is a time in the mid-fifties where the voice and art are at their truest equilibrium. As a piece of singing, her 1955 La Scala Norma, is just astonishing, but it is also the one where her absorption with the role is refined beyond anything she did when several pounds heavier. I have no doubt the severe weight loss, coupled with the intensity which infused every performance contributed enormously to her early decline. I have also no doubt, that without it, those great performances from the 1950s (the Berlin *Lucia*, the La Scala *Norma*, the la Scala and London *Traviata*s, the Dallas *Medea*, her wonderfully poetic and elegiac Amina) would never have happened.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MacLeod said:


> Singing catchy pop songs isn't a musical talent?


Of course it is. Like peeling potatoes is a culinary talent.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Compared to Audrey Hepburn, her idol, she was fat, but compared to Eaglen, pre op Voigt, Blythe, early Norman, and Marc she was svelt. Statuesque is the word for early Maria... I agree. You will have no trouble supporting the voice as a slender singer if you learn your craft that way, but if you learn obese and lose weight the voice almost always suffers. This happened to Jessye Norman who lost 100 lbs, was still a big lady, but never had the same degree of breath support again IMHO as she had at 350+. Andrea Gruber before the surgery and drug issues was very impressive. Afterwards....well. Caballe lost weight, she looked better, but critics said the voice suffered. I think she quickly and gladly gained it back. Sutherland was much slimmer in her early days but felt that weighing more aided her to her all important breath support. She should know... Pav said she had the best breath support of any singer he knew. She became slimmer when she retired.


Singing is such a delicate equilibrium of mind and body. I know, as I used to do it, and quite frankly my equilibrium never quite equilibrated! Never having been fat, I can only imagine the shift in equilibrium that would have to follow a loss of 100 pounds. I suspect you're right on the money when you suggest that had Callas, Voigt, Eaglen et al. been slim from the start their bodies would have experienced the feel of singing differently, however subtle the difference. But I also agree with Greg that for Callas there was the sheer intensity of her performances that must have impacted the voice; I can't think of another singer who asked so much of her instrument. A voice can only take so much, and the opera world is littered with vocal wrecks who didn't know what they could and could not take. I suspect Voigt is one of them; she still gets all the notes (well, most of them), but a lot of those notes belong to roles she never should have attempted. Her Brunnhilde at the Met last year was hard on my ears, her Minnie likewise. Being fat and loud does not a dramatic soprano make. Now we have the once lovely lyric soprano Patricia Racette becoming "famous" as Butterfly and, I gather, Tosca, and wobbling all the way to the bank. Callas at least knew her repertoire, even if she burned herself out in the fire of greatness.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> The more beautiful Callas became the worse her voice sounded. In her final concert she was simply gorgeous but unlistenable to me.
> I wonder why they don't use soprano counter tenors for Octavian. Phillippe Jaroussky would look marvelous and the men and women would want to kiss those lips;-)
> Rysenek, Nilsson and Varnay were all normal sized women with huge voices for the first decade of their dramatic soprano careers. Eaglen was enormous but it didn't bother me in a house because her voice was so wonderful in her early years. I can't buy her on DVD, though. Her vast weight became a problem as she aged as her breath support waned as she passed her early 40's.


Octavian a countertenor! Fascinating idea. Cherubino too? I don't know...

Your point that Nilsson and Varnay, with their huge voices, were not hugely fat is really worth noting. Neither, to go back in time, were Flagstad, Leider, Nordica, Lilli Lehmann, et al. (though Wagner's first Tristan and Isolde were pretty enormous - but he was probably lucky to find _anyone_ to sing those parts!). Obesity is not a qualification for singing loudly. It seems to be a malady of our time. Just look around.


----------



## flylooper (Dec 6, 2011)

What a joke! It's amazing how just plain small some newspaper writers and be.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

MacLeod said:


> Singing catchy pop songs isn't a musical talent?


As I believe the said group had to have their voices electronically modified then not in this case!


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I wonder why they don't use soprano counter tenors for Octavian. Phillippe Jaroussky would look marvelous and the men and women would want to kiss those lips;-)
> .


Except Strauss wrote the work as a celebration of the female voice. I don't think he'd have gone for a countertenor!


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Your point that Nilsson and Varnay, with their huge voices, were not hugely fat is really worth noting. Neither, to go back in time, were Flagstad, Leider, Nordica, Lilli Lehmann, et al. (though Wagner's first Tristan and Isolde were pretty enormous - but he was probably lucky to find _anyone_ to sing those parts!). Obesity is not a qualification for singing loudly. It seems to be a malady of our time. Just look around.


Knappersbusch's remark when John Culshaw expressed concern Flagstad might tire during a recording session for Walkure: "Tire? She won't tire. She's built like a battleship!"


----------



## Rhombic (Oct 28, 2013)

I was absolutely shocked with this article. I had read it four days ago and I was seriously appalled. I can't believe that the opera critics are becoming so detached from the actual music.



PetrB said:


> Good lord! One can only pray this specimen display we're looking at is from a recessive gene pool.


Now that is a great way to insult someone


----------



## Guest (May 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Of course it is. Like peeling potatoes is a culinary talent.


I'd be very happy to have had the success that came from their musical potato peeling!


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

MacLeod said:


> I'd be very happy to have had the success that came from their musical potato peeling!


Do I detect a secret member of the fan club?


----------



## Guest (May 25, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Do I detect a secret member of the fan club?


Far from it. I couldn't stand them then and I can't stand them now. But I also can't stand the snobbery in this thread.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I agree that with Callas it was not just the weight. She was singing very heavy roles beginning in her late teens in Athens, sang TONS of Turandot in her mid to late 20's as well as the big Wagnerian roles, all before most wise singers would undertake them as well. Singing Bellini one night and Wagner the next can't be wise for one's vocal instrument yet she did just that. She also had the wealthiest man in the world who in addition was a wizard in the boudoir whisking her off in his yacht and she seems to have grown tired of working so very hard as she once had. All these factors I think played into her vocal decline but her weight loss certainly greatly sped it along.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MacLeod said:


> I'd be very happy to have had the success that came from their musical potato peeling!


And as we all know, success is a _sure_ guage of musical worth!

Please pass the mashed potatoes.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Knappersbusch's remark when John Culshaw expressed concern Flagstad might tire during a recording session for Walkure: "Tire? She won't tire. She's built like a battleship!"


These recording sessions were near the end of her life, when she was in her sixties, and I'm not sure but that her final illness (cancer) might have been known and on Culshaw's mind. Given her perfect vocal technique and legendary endurance, he would certainly have had no doubts about her abilities as a singer. Flagstad gained weight gradually over her lifetime, as many people do. Early photos reveal a quite slim and lovely woman (makes you wonder why she called herself "the least kissed girl in Norway"). During the prime years of her career photos show a nobly statuesque but not obese figure. And there's this charming movie clip of her doing Brunnhilde's battle cry:






Wears her armor pretty nicely!


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I agree that with Callas it was not just the weight. She was singing very heavy roles beginning in her late teens in Athens, sang TONS of Turandot in her mid to late 20's as well as the big Wagnerian roles, all before most wise singers would undertake them as well. Singing Bellini one night and Wagner the next can't be wise for one's vocal instrument yet she did just that. She also had the wealthiest man in the world who in addition was a wizard in the boudoir whisking her off in his yacht and she seems to have grown tired of working so very hard as she once had. All these factors I think played into her vocal decline but her weight loss certainly greatly sped it along.


Yes, Callas was overly ambitious as a young person. Singing Bellini and Wagner apparently didn't hurt Lilli Lehmann, but there are always exceptions; Callas was capable of such feats in her twenties, and perhaps imagined that she'd be one of those exceptions, which for a few amazing years she appeared to be. But after Serafin persuaded her to undertake _Puritani_ and her brilliance in bel canto became obvious, she quickly dropped Wagner, and mostly avoided Puccini and verismo as well. Callas as a mature artist was intelligent in limiting her roles, unlike so many singers now who let themselves be pushed into things they're unsuited for and act as if their voices will somehow grow into heavier repertoire despite the strain, dryness and wobble the rest of us can hear only too well.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Callas as a mature artist was intelligent in limiting her roles, unlike so many singers now who let themselves be pushed into things they're unsuited for and act as if their voices will somehow grow into heavier repertoire despite the strain, dryness and wobble the rest of us can hear only too well.


In one of her master classes, when a student attempts Medea's _Dei tuoi figli_, she admonishes the singer for singing the whole aria full out. Callas certainly knew how to manage her resources.

"In opera, passion without intellect is no good. You will be a wild animal and not an artist. Look at this music and say to yourself. 'I have not only to go from the beginning of this aria here to the ending there, but I have a duet to sing afterwards as well as two more acts, which are also killers. How will I do this?' First, remember that while Medea is a hard woman, she is also a woman in love. This aria is her first and last chance in the opera to be kind and loving. Even though she accuses Jason, she wants him back. Take advantage of the loving side of Medea; use phrases such as _torna a me, torna sposa per me_ to relax, to spare yourself and your voice for the cries of _crudel_ and thsoe b-flats towards the end. If you sing the whole aria as big as its climaxes, you're dead."


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

MacLeod said:


> Far from it. I couldn't stand them then and I can't stand them now. But I also can't stand the snobbery in this thread.


It's not snobbery to say the Spice girls had little musical talent. Just observation!


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> These recording sessions were near the end of her life, when she was in her sixties, and I'm not sure but that her final illness (cancer) might have been known and on Culshaw's mind. Given her perfect vocal technique and legendary endurance, he would certainly have had no doubts about her abilities as a singer. Flagstad gained weight gradually over her lifetime, as many people do. Early photos reveal a quite slim and lovely woman (makes you wonder why she called herself "the least kissed girl in Norway"). During the prime years of her career photos show a nobly statuesque but not obese figure. And there's this charming movie clip of her doing Brunnhilde's battle cry:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Flagstad was never fat. Rather sturdily built. I think it's that Kna was referring to.

Looking at the clip, it does make one realise how difficult it is to keep a straight face when watching Wagner sung! A thousand stereotypes come into one's mind!


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

DavidA said:


> It's not snobbery to say the Spice girls had little musical talent. Just observation!


I think they had plenty of talent, but lacked the right build for the music. :lol:


----------



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

I think young Kirsten is utterly gorgeous here:


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Flagstad was never fat. Rather sturdily built. I think it's that Kna was referring to.
> 
> Looking at the clip, it does make one realise how difficult it is to keep a straight face when watching Wagner sung! A thousand stereotypes come into one's mind!


I agree that it's amusing, though in an endearing way. This was of course designed and shot for the movie, not a part of an actual production of the opera. Given that all Kirsten could do was stand there and swing a spear, I wouldn't be inclined to generalize too freely about the effect of seeing Wagner sung! She still looks utterly charming, IMO, and of course sounds fabulous. We may never hear another such voice in this music.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> I think young Kirsten is utterly gorgeous here:


One critic at the time described her performance of Isolde as "the beautiful singing of a beautiful woman".


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

> Originally Posted by MacLeod
> Far from it. I couldn't stand them then and I can't stand them now. But I also can't stand the snobbery in this thread.
> It's not snobbery to say the Spice girls had little musical talent. Just observation!


"Little" musical talent?--- quite apart from merely analyzing and describing, rest assured that is a _generous_ assesment.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> These recording sessions were near the end of her life, when she was in her sixties, and I'm not sure but that her final illness (cancer) might have been known and on Culshaw's mind. Given her perfect vocal technique and legendary endurance, he would certainly have had no doubts about her abilities as a singer. Flagstad gained weight gradually over her lifetime, as many people do. Early photos reveal a quite slim and lovely woman (makes you wonder why she called herself "the least kissed girl in Norway"). During the prime years of her career photos show a nobly statuesque but not obese figure. And there's this charming movie clip of her doing Brunnhilde's battle cry:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cute. Love it. Love the high-angle camera shot looking down on her and her winsome smile.


----------



## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

The stream of the Glyndebourne Rosenkavalier starts in 10 minutes. The actual performance started an hour ago but this way we don't have to wait through the hour and a half second interval.

The performance should remain available to stream on demand until June 15.


----------



## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

That link doesn't seem to be working? I have switched to here: http://glyndebourne.com/Festival-2014-in-cinemas


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

You can see the Rosenkavalier performance streamed on Norman Lebrecht's Slipped Disc site. Looks pretty awful I must say. The unfortunate Octavian seemed to be totally miscast. Mind you, so was the director!


----------



## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

You can also stream the opera from the Glyndebourne site (my second link above). It is only available through June 15th, though.

I found the garish, bizarre costumes a fine fit for the blinding wallpaper, bold flooring and goofy physical actions. Focusing on Octavian's costuming seems to miss everyone else's costumes and the entire aesthetic of the production. Octavian's 2nd act Knight of the Rose costume looks particularly tacky, fake and old-timey but that seems fitting as the entire concept of the Rosenkavalier is fake, old-timey nonsense.

I read the opera as a satire so this all works for me. I'm fine with a relatively sexualized Marschallin (35 is _not_ old), a slightly awkward Sophie and an Octavian that really looks the inexperienced, impetuous youth that he acts like.

The production has some issues including plenty of details that seem to have been missed/skipped without purpose, but the look and costuming was clearly the result of conscious, integrated choices. And I for one found them delightful.


----------



## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

KenOC said:


> http://www.theguardian.com/music/20...-angry-at-description-of-soprano-stars-weight


boorish stuff. we should not tolerate this.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Saw the the said Rosenkavalier and felt the critics had a point about the Octavian. She looked dumpy especially in the dreadful costumes. Actually when interviewed she was a nice looking girl, quite pretty in a plump sort of way. But as Octavian she just looked plain wrong. The critics are entitled to give their opinion, of course, but not to be rude about it.
The production was absolutely ghastly! I'm so glad I didn't pay a fortune to see it. In fact, if anyone wants me to see it again they can pay me!


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

^ why was it ghastly? I really liked it, and not just sorta-kinda as with the ROH Don Giovanni.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

deggial said:


> ^ why was it ghastly? I really liked it, and not just sorta-kinda as with the ROH Don Giovanni.


Well, each to his own. I have long given up going to opera productions live as you often pay exorbitant prices to sit through this sort of horror show.


----------



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

deggial said:


> ^ why was it ghastly? I really liked it, and not just sorta-kinda as with the ROH Don Giovanni.


Yes. a lot of it was pretty good. Erraught might not have looked the part but she certainly acted it brilliantly - eager, impetuous, confused - and her singing was absolutely spot on. My main puzzle was why Sophie had to spend most of the last act in her dressing gown.


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Well, each to his own. I have long given up going to opera productions live as you often pay exorbitant prices to sit through this sort of horror show.


ok but I'm actually curious to know what you found ghastly about it - just for the sake of knowing what other people think.


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

mamascarlatti said:


> Yes. a lot of it was pretty good. Erraught might not have looked the part but she certainly acted it brilliantly - eager, impetuous, confused - and her singing was absolutely spot on. My main puzzle was why Sophie had to spend most of the last act in her dressing gown.


agreed. I also thought the direction was tough on Sophie, almost as if it _tried_ to make her look homely, which is rather unusual.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

deggial said:


> ok but I'm actually curious to know what you found ghastly about it - just for the sake of knowing what other people think.


Just a few thoughts then: Der Rosenkavalier is rooted in a painstakingly stylised version of Rococo Vienna that, paradoxically, is further fixed in a web of cannily juxtaposed anachronisms. The problem is by throwing that out, Jones tended to make it a rather crude satire on a satire. The garish sets seemed totally at odds with what Strauss was trying to say and the costumes lacked any reality base in the period that was supposed to be satirised. They looked as if they'd wandered in from Alice in Wonderland.
The central character is the Marschallin but in trying to make her a 'strong woman' Royal only succeeded in making her more like the dirty duchess than the somewhat dignified and tragic figure Strauss intended her to be. Her relationship with Octavian was therefore distanced, voyeuristic and lacking in intimacy. In fact, the whole thing lacked intimacy and warmth.
Erraght's Octavian looked totally wrong - she sang well but the unandrogynous, diminutive figure was notably unconvincing. 
Jones likes to be iconoclastic but this is just plain misguided.
Rosenkavalier is a pretty grubby little story of infidelity. To bring it off the characters must come over as sympathetic. None of them did IMO.
Just a few thoughts. My opinion. Producers should think of the audience before they inflict this on the public.


----------



## peterb (Mar 7, 2014)

I want to know if there is a Rosenkavalier where the Baron is legitimately funny. It seems like there is the kernel of a brilliant comic opera in there somewhere, if it could get out from under the weight of itself.


----------



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

peterb said:


> I want to know if there is a Rosenkavalier where the Baron is legitimately funny. It seems like there is the kernel of a brilliant comic opera in there somewhere, if it could get out from under the weight of itself.


The thing about the Baron is that underneath all the bluff comedy is a horrible rapy lecher who gets off on forcing himself on women. A kind of Scarpia in lederhosen. In fact I prefer Scarpia.


----------



## Guest (Jun 30, 2014)

Regarding the original article - I think that an opera singer should be judged first, and foremost, on their instrument.

That being said - let's be honest here. Opera directors and such have been doing their part, as well, over the years to push sex into performances. There is a proliferation of performances with nudity and objectifying the female (and occasionally the male) physique. There is some hypocrisy, then, when we condemn people who do start commenting then on those physiques. Tell me that the director wants you to focus on the performers voice when he has her strip down. I realize that is not the case here, but aren't we conditioning people to start considering appearance as well in these operas?


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

mamascarlatti said:


> The thing about the Baron is that underneath all the bluff comedy is a horrible rapy lecher who gets off on forcing himself on women. A kind of Scarpia in lederhosen. In fact I prefer Scarpia.


Personally I find all the Baron stuff a bit tedious. I can't wait for the Marschallin to make her entrance in Act III and put an end to it.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Personally I find all the Baron stuff a bit tedious. I can't wait for the Marschallin to make her entrance in Act III and put an end to it.


<Ahem.> The Marschallin is always the show.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Personally I find all the Baron stuff a bit tedious. I can't wait for the Marschallin to make her entrance in Act III and put an end to it.


Ochs is the main reason I love only some of the music from _Rosenkavalier_ and not the opera (i.e., not the parts he's in). The first time I heard that buffoon grunting on about I care not what, that whining female/male/female chambermaid, and those urchins screeching "Papa! Papa!", I knew I would never listen to the whole thing again. Perhaps it all works better as theater than as music, but I'd be quite satisfied with a listener's digest in which the Marschallin and Octavian have a little banter in bed, he gets dressed and takes Sophie the rose, the Marschallin, left alone, muses about aging, the Italian singer cheers her up, they all get together for the grand trio, the Marschallin says "Ja, ja," and the curtain falls.

A charming little opera, a dish of musical sweetmeats, over in an hour, and the fat man never sings.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Ochs is the main reason I love only some of the music from _Rosenkavalier_ and not the opera (i.e., not the parts he's in). The first time I heard that buffoon grunting on about I care not what, that whining female/male/female chambermaid, and those urchins screeching "Papa! Papa!", I knew I would never listen to the whole thing again. Perhaps it all works better as theater than as music, but I'd be quite satisfied with a listener's digest in which the Marschallin and Octavian have a little banter in bed, he gets dressed and takes Sophie the rose, the Marschallin, left alone, muses about aging, the Italian singer cheers her up, they all get together for the grand trio, the Marschallin says "Ja, ja," and the curtain falls.
> 
> A charming little opera, a dish of musical sweetmeats, over in an hour, and the fat man never sings.


---
_"Marscha! Marscha! Marscha!"_


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> ---
> _"Marscha! Marscha! Marscha!"_


You can't spoil my little one-acter no matter what you say.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

> Originally Posted by Marschallin Blair View Post
> ---
> "Marscha! Marscha! Marscha!"
> 
> Woodduck: You can't spoil my little one-acter no matter what you say.


Oh, that wasn't me. That was Jan Brady.


----------



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Woodduck said:


> Ochs is the main reason I love only some of the music from _Rosenkavalier_ and not the opera (i.e., not the parts he's in). The first time I heard that buffoon grunting on about I care not what, that whining female/male/female chambermaid, and those urchins screeching "Papa! Papa!", I knew I would never listen to the whole thing again. Perhaps it all works better as theater than as music, but I'd be quite satisfied with a listener's digest in which the Marschallin and Octavian have a little banter in bed, he gets dressed and takes Sophie the rose, the Marschallin, left alone, muses about aging, the Italian singer cheers her up, they all get together for the grand trio, the Marschallin says "Ja, ja," and the curtain falls.
> 
> A charming little opera, a dish of musical sweetmeats, over in an hour, and the fat man never sings.


I'll sign up for that one.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Oh, that wasn't me. That was Jan Brady.


Jan Brady can't spoil it either, the little whiner.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Jan Brady can't spoil it either, the little whiner.


Drama makes time pass, and time makes drama pass-- you'll be alright.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

GregMitchell said:


> Personally I find all the Baron stuff a bit tedious. I can't wait for the Marschallin to make her entrance in Act III and put an end to it.


It's a celebration of the soprano voice. The rest is a bit redundant.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

DrMike said:


> Regarding the original article - I think that an opera singer should be judged first, and foremost, on their instrument.
> 
> That being said - let's be honest here. Opera directors and such have been doing their part, as well, over the years to push sex into performances. There is a proliferation of performances with nudity and objectifying the female (and occasionally the male) physique. There is some hypocrisy, then, when we condemn people who do start commenting then on those physiques. Tell me that the director wants you to focus on the performers voice when he has her strip down. I realize that is not the case here, but aren't we conditioning people to start considering appearance as well in these operas?


We are living in an age where appearance matters more than it did. So it now matters what people look like as well as how they sing. It is also an age of close-ups with broadcasts, DVD, etc.
Sadly, it also is an age lacking in subtlety. Whereas at one time sex was implied by the music it is now rammed full frontal (sometimes literally) at us. To me it is totally tedious as sex is a boring spectator sport. How much more effective it is when directors let the music paint the drama.


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

DrMike said:


> aren't we conditioning people to start considering appearance as well in these operas?


even judging by films everything has to be "more" real than before, so yes, we are. I'm not 100% sure why the need for this super realness but I'm also not saying I haven't bought into it, at least partially.


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

peterb said:


> I want to know if there is a Rosenkavalier where the Baron is legitimately funny. It seems like there is the kernel of a brilliant comic opera in there somewhere, if it could get out from under the weight of itself.


I might be going against the grain, but I think Ochs is funny as he is (ie, most Ochs out there are funny). He's the ridiculous chap with toupe, driving a Porsche, listening to tunes from his youth and trying to get it on with materialistic 20 year olds who order him around in exchange for a little something-something.


----------



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

deggial said:


> I might be going against the grain, but I think Ochs is funny as he is (ie, most Ochs out there are funny). He's the ridiculous chap with toupe, driving a Porsche, listening to tunes from his youth and trying to get it on with materialistic 20 year olds who order him around in exchange for a little something-something.


The difference being that the women he is trying to get it on with are usually powerless in that society - 15 year old girls married against their will to much older men, servant girls who can be seduced and discarded, turned off without a character if they become pregnant. It could have all turned out quite differently if Octavian had not saved the day.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> We are living in an age where appearance matters more than it did.


I'm not sure that is completely true. There have always been fat sopranos, and slim sopranos, as renowned for their dramatic ability as their voices. If contemporary portraits of the likes of Guiditta Pasta and Maria Malibran are to be believed, they were not fat ladies. Both were famous for their dramatic abilities. Later such singers as Mary Garden, Maria Jeritza and Claudia Muzio were as famous for their looks as their singing. I think there have always been those who are happy to sit back and listen, regardless of what's happening on stage and those for whom some dramatic verisimilitude is paramount. It's an argument as old as opera itself.


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

mamascarlatti said:


> The difference being that the women he is trying to get it on with are usually powerless in that society - 15 year old girls married against their will to much older men, servant girls who can be seduced and discarded, turned off without a character if they become pregnant. It could have all turned out quite differently if Octavian had not saved the day.


true, but that was how it went back then. Not saying it was ok just that Ochs was behaving in a normal way for his social position and upbringing.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

GregMitchell said:


> I'm not sure that is completely true. There have always been fat sopranos, and slim sopranos, as renowned for their dramatic ability as their voices. If contemporary portraits of the likes of Guiditta Pasta and Maria Malibran are to be believed, they were not fat ladies. Both were famous for their dramatic abilities. Later such singers as Mary Garden, Maria Jeritza and Claudia Muzio were as famous for their looks as their singing. I think there have always been those who are happy to sit back and listen, regardless of what's happening on stage and those for whom some dramatic verisimilitude is paramount. It's an argument as old as opera itself.


We also live in an age where people actually sit and watch opera. At one time it tended to be a social gathering for the rich who chatted in their boxes.


----------

