# Bartok's Quartets



## ChamberNut

Here is a thread to discuss Bartok's string quartets.

Yesterday, I was listening to his String Quartet # 1. The first mvt "Lento" definitely reminded me of Beethoven's String Quartet # 14, Op. 131, the 1st mvt. Just wondering if anyone else who listens to Bartok's quartets has encountered this?

Listening to Bartok the last few weeks, and it's definitely very different than what I'm "used to" hearing. Having said that, I really enjoy SQ # 1 and think it to be the easiest of the quartets to listen to in terms of the transition. 

I also enjoy SQ# 4 very much. Love the Allegretto Pizzicato 4th mvt.


----------



## Frasier

The 3rd is probably the hardest to comprehend! These are important works for the student of String Quartets and string techniques (for a composer) as well as just listening.


----------



## Rondo

I haven't gotten into much of Bartok's work, particularly his chamber music. After hearing one of his piano sonatas I realized that there is more than first meets the ear with Bartok.

Thanks for bringing up the string quartets, Ill have to check into those. As far as Beethoven's quartets, my favs are the later ones (11-17), one of which you compare to Bartok. (But, Im sure, and correct me if Im wrong, Bartok borrows a lot from Beethoven's later work.)


----------



## indutrial

The Bartok quartets are pretty much fundamental materials to study if you really want to study twentieth century music. I particularly love the 4th, which the Arditti Quartet has referred to as a "twentieth century warhouse" piece of chamber work.

Lately I've been studying Alexandre Tansman's numerous string quartets (8 total), Darius Milhaud's monster catalogue of them (18 total, 2 of which can combine into an awesome octet), and the lesser-known Belgian composer Jean Absil's (4 total). Absil was very interested in Bartok's work and he espoused a similar folk-ish free tonal approach to creating harmonies.

As regards Bartok, I'd say everyone should dedicate some real time to exploring his quartets as well as his other timeless chamber work. My highest recommendation goes out to his Music for Celeste, Percussion, and Strings.


----------



## ChamberNut

indutrial said:


> My highest recommendation goes out to his Music for Celeste, Percussion, and Strings.


I second this recommendation. I really love this work.


----------



## jurianbai

Have fragmented of SQ no.2,3,5 and 6 but have a full SQ no.4 which is really challenging to hear. It is in the era I am not much familiar with. My quick comment is I like the SQ no.2 , especially the 2nd mov Allegro Molto, love that bombastic intro.


----------



## Zasranec

I am thinking of getting some recordings of Bartok's quartets. I consider recordings by Hagen Quartet and Takács Quartet. Another option is Arcanto Qt (Qts 5 and 6). Which would you recommend?


----------



## Guest

I have now found a large hole in my CD collection, not one quartet  a lot of Bartoks other works but no St Qts, what have I been missing


----------



## xJuanx

I recommend Juilliard Quartet. But I've heard Végh Quartet is the best option you can get.


----------



## World Violist

I haven't any Bartok AT ALL in my collection... this is a tragedy. I have a bunch of stuff lined up already (quartets, concerto for orchestra/music for celeste, percussion, strings, piano music, etc.), but nothing bought. I have many holes to fill in my collection yet!


----------



## Zasranec

Thanks, Juan. But Vegh Quartet is a 1954 mono recording...


----------



## Guest

How about the Guarneri Qt, 2 CD set for d/l at Amazon for $9.99, can any one recommend this set??


----------



## Gorm Less

World Violist said:


> I haven't any Bartok AT ALL in my collection... this is a tragedy.


Heaven forbid. That's astonishing. You will never live it down if word gets around. Quick now, before it is too late, get down to your record store and buy what everyone else has already bought: Concerto for Orchestra; Music for Strings, Percussion & Celesta(Reiner/CSO); String Quartets (Tokyo DG set, or Juilliard 1963, or Emerson Quartet if you like your chamber music a bit faster and leaner). I hope you get away with it.


----------



## TresPicos

Andante said:


> I have now found a large hole in my CD collection, not one quartet  a lot of Bartoks other works but no St Qts, what have I been missing


You've been missing #4 and #6 especially.


----------



## msegers

I have enjoyed the music of Béla Bartók ever since I discovered it, when I was a freshman in college (more years ago than you need to know, or I want to think about). After I started a Bartók guestbook in this forum, I was very humbled when our own Mr. *Bach* referred me to Bartók's string quartets, which I had never heard (honestly, don't believe I had ever heard of).

For the past few weeks (with a pause for the new Indigo Girls record yesterday), I have been having the most wonderful adventures in listening to the quartets. I think it might be a good thing that I had these treasures waiting for me now. It is amazing how much Bartók packs into these pieces.


----------



## xJuanx

I think this Astrée album by Végh Quartet is remastered.


----------



## Zasranec

Well, in local library I found recordings by Emerson SQ and Takacs SQ. I think there are others available too. So, now I will have to find time to compare them...


----------



## Efraim

Zasranec said:


> I am thinking of getting some recordings of Bartok's quartets. I consider recordings by Hagen Quartet and Takács Quartet. Another option is Arcanto Qt (Qts 5 and 6). Which would you recommend?


Hungarian, Juilliard, Parrenin, but these are old LPs. Not long ago I bought all 6 by the Novák Quartet, on CD, Philips. It is worth buying.


----------



## xuantu

I have Hagen (DGG), Takacs (Decca), Vermeer (Naxos), Tatrai (Hungaroton) and I've heard Emerson (DGG), Vegh (Astree). All of them are good choices. But if I were to name only one favorite, it would be Hagen, for no other set explores the sound world of Bartok (in the contemporary sense) so attentively or realized it with such playfulness. Experiencing Hagen's Bartok is like having a fun tour in a modern art museum (I have no idea if the cover has become a contributing factor here). It is an "eyeopening" ride.

I've read good things about Arcanto (only #5 and #6). While the recording features two of my favorite string players (Tabea Zimmermann and Jean-Guihen Queyras) plus the fact that #5 & #6 are indeed great selections from Bartok's quartets, I simply couldn't live without #2 and #4. Go get a complete edition if you have none.


----------



## Vic

I own the Balcea recording and I really like it, but I can't compare it to anything else as this my only recording. 
I would like to have the Hagen too.


----------



## Bartók

xuantu said:


> I've read good things about Arcanto (only #5 and #6). While the recording features two of my favorite string players (Tabea Zimmermann and Jean-Guihen Queyras) plus the fact that #5 & #6 are indeed great selections from Bartok's quartets, I simply couldn't live without #2 and #4. Go get a complete edition if you have none.


I think that I own or have heard almost every version of Bartok's string quartet's, and the Arcanto's version of the 5th is my favorite one of all. Unfortunately, the fifth and the sixth is all they have done, but I highly recommend buying it. For a full set, I think that the Emerson Quartet's is my favorite. The Julliard Quartets 1963 version is great too, but it was discontinued so it is hard to find.


----------



## Vic

How does the Emerson compare to the Hagen? They are both great I presume, but can someone describe the difference? That would be helpful.


----------



## TresPicos

Bartók said:


> I think that I own or have heard almost every version of Bartok's string quartet's, and the Arcanto's version of the 5th is my favorite one of all. Unfortunately, the fifth and the sixth is all they have done, but I highly recommend buying it. For a full set, I think that the Emerson Quartet's is my favorite. The Julliard Quartets 1963 version is great too, but it was discontinued so it is hard to find.


Chilingirian Quartet did a good full set on Chandos. Might be hard to find too, though.


----------



## xuantu

Vic said:


> How does the Emerson compare to the Hagen? They are both great I presume, but can someone describe the difference? That would be helpful.


Your question demands detailed analysis which lies comfortably beyond my ability. Let me just start by saying that the Emerson is indeed a very satisfying set. It has top-notch teamwork, a thorough understanding of Bartok's idioms and, more importantly, compelling readings from our sympathetic players. The Emersons have clearly taken a 'romantic' approach; from the very beginning they treated Bartok as a post-Romantic master. Don't you sometimes feel that the first movement of #1 is like a natural follow-up to Beethoven's Op.131--well, Emerson's performance would probably strengthen such a viewpoint. However, Hagen's #1 reveals more of the innocence in the score, which gives away its connection with the composer's unrequited love for a Stefi Geyer. In a word, the Hagens' vision is unaffected and more 'classical'. Though they may have announced less emotional or even folk elements in their renditions than the Emersons (a pity for #2), they sound clearer and more pleasant (and no less forceful) than most in storming passages such as those in #4 finale and the first movement of #5, and they are by far the quirkiest in the middle and late quartets. The Emerson is perhaps a more well-rounded set in terms of showing all the different facets of Bartok's music (another set that could have hold similar prestige is the Takacs, but I am not a big fan of Decca's acoustics). I personally prefer Hagen's lightness of touch, bright colors, and accentuated contemporary feel. Bartok's quartets are fortunate to be among the works that have been extensively well recorded. I believe at the end of the day, it's really left to you to choose your favorite set based on your personal tastes.


----------



## Head_case

xJuanx said:


> I think this Astrée album by Végh Quartet is remastered.


Yes it is: it's quite a splendid recording at the Chaux-des-Fonds studio.

Their students, the Keller Quartet, recorded the same Bartok cycle at the same location. Both cycles are impeccably played. Although Sandor Végh has nothing but praise for Andreas Keller's interpretation, the intensely spiritual playing of the Végh quartet sublimates the instruments into the pure aural phase of Bartokian perfection.

The Hagen Quartet are great: technically perfect as usual. They have never released a dud album.


----------



## muxamed

And there is a reissue of the 1972 Vegh recordings on Naïve.


----------



## Head_case

That's the best audio version of the Végh Quartets recordings on the market 

It's the one to get before the modern technical performances come into rage. 

Shame the Hagen haven't recorded the complete cycle. I can't understand a quartet's half-hearted commitment to churning out half a cycle of string quartets, and not finishing the rest. It's a bit like listening to soirée music in a recital.....

Végh it is!


----------



## muxamed

Head_case said:


> Shame the Hagen haven't recorded the complete cycle. I can't understand a quartet's half-hearted commitment to churning out half a cycle of string quartets, and not finishing the rest. It's a bit like listening to soirée music in a recital.....
> 
> Végh it is!


But Hagen have recorded the complete cycle  I have their box, it is adorable.


----------



## Head_case

Woohoo!

About time too then?! 

Lol. How long has it been in the making....?! 

All these 'recent' advances in classical music. Boy - I just can't keep up 

This has got to be a cycle worth listening to as a whole. How does it compare to the Keller Quartet's interpretation?


----------



## muxamed

In 1995 they made their recordings of quartets 1-3, and then in 1998 they recorded the rest of them. These are glorious performances. I rate them, alongside Vegh, Keller and Takacs, as one of the best. Definitely top-notch and worth listening


----------



## Mr Chewie

It amazes me how diverse Bartok makes these quartets with such skeletal thematic material.


----------



## Head_case

Lajtha; Kodaly, Kurtag ~ his fellow countrymen are all fantastic to discover after acquiring at least two different versions of Bartok's string quartets too.


----------



## robert

I cannot understand why the Tokyo String Quartet has not been mentioned. They recorded them twice. Once on DG and second time on RCA. Both times the original group.....Same with Beethoven's Quartets. I found them to be the best....

Robert


----------



## HarpsichordConcerto

Head_case said:


> Lajtha; Kodaly, Kurtag ~ his fellow countrymen are all fantastic to discover after acquiring at least two different versions of Bartok's string quartets too.


Are you sure the *Kodaly Quartet *has recorded Bartok's string quartets? I searched their discography at their own website and at the Naxos website, which suggest they have not.

I am thinking of getting a complete set by the Vermeer Quartet (Naxos). It's very cheap, so what the heck, even though I generally dislike 20th century music. Anybody have the set by the Vermeer Quartet?


----------



## Sebastien Melmoth

The Vermeer's Beethoven cycle on Teldec was (I believe) unjustly underrated; and they did a great Brahms Quintet (w/Karl Leister), all unfortunately OOP.


----------



## Bartók

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> I am thinking of getting a complete set by the Vermeer Quartet (Naxos). It's very cheap, so what the heck, even though I generally dislike 20th century music. Anybody have the set by the Vermeer Quartet?


I own the Vermeer Quartet's recording. I think that it is a quality set, but it is definitely not the best set of Bartok's string quartets. They tend to play with a more "romantic" feel than a modern one, but you might like this though if you generally dislike 20th century music. I feel that their playing does not convey the intensity needed in most of the pieces, especially the 2nd, 4th, and 5th quartet.

Instead, this would probably be my first choice:

http://www.amazon.com/Bartok-Julliard-String-Quartet-Bart%C3%B3k/dp/B000P6RB88/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=I2FGN5FS2R2COP&colid=Z1MRVZ835250

Followed by this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Bela-Bartok-Quartets-Emerson-Quartet/dp/B000001G9O/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1271296182&sr=1-1

And then:

http://www.amazon.com/String-Quartets-Hagen-Quartet/dp/B00004SDO2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1271296523&sr=1-1

Still, the Vermeer's set is fine for getting acquainted with the music. Just my opinion though


----------



## Head_case

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Are you sure the *Kodaly Quartet *has recorded Bartok's string quartets? I searched their discography at their own website and at the Naxos website, which suggest they have not.
> 
> I am thinking of getting a complete set by the Vermeer Quartet (Naxos). It's very cheap, so what the heck, even though I generally dislike 20th century music. Anybody have the set by the Vermeer Quartet?


Pretty sure ~ the Kodaly Quartet definitely weren't playing Rachmaninov's Vocalise in concert! 

They might be on Marco Polo btw. Can't remember, but I'd recommend the Vegh Cycle!!! It's really worth the extra few pounds


----------



## Argus

I finally got around to picking up a cycle. I got the Keller Quartet version for a little more than a bag of fish and chips, which seems like a bargain to me.


----------



## Head_case

Yup - that's a brilliant cycle; both technically and performance wise - and in fact, when it came out when I was a student at university, it really created a huge stir! Nothing like this cycle had been issued since the 1970s. 

So I have the first edition Keller Cycle too - from the very first month it was released in the UK. Lol ~ it sounds the same as your re-issue but commands higher resale prices 

The are several notable features of the fantastic value Keller Quartet Cycle: 

the recording in Chaux-des-Fonds is very rich and detailed - this compensates for the less analytical approach adopted by the Keller Quartet. They do not however possess the smoothness of their spiritual predecessors - the Vegh Quartet - whose last recording at Chaux-des-Fonds was also made. The vinyl LP Bartok Cycle by the Vegh Quartet is actually far warmer than the Keller Cycle, which, far from sounding cold and detached, however nothing as austere as the brilliant Takacs Quartet whose micro-analytical attention to phrasing and arcing, creates a very different experience. 

Andreas Keller chases the 'spirit' of Bartok in his groups' playing. They are not interested in micro-detail; exact phrasing (which is very hard to impute from Bartok's original score). They are after the bigger picture so the cycle can be listened to whilst reclining in a large three piece sofa with a glass of wine, rather than methodically listened to with the score in hand through mono spectacles and fountain pen to take notes. 

I'm in the habit of listening to Quartets No. IV-VI first, and then Quartets No. I - III. I really hope you enjoy this - let us know how you get on with it. This quartet cycle is the crowning achievement of the Keller Quartet: they haven't really bested it


----------



## Edward Elgar

I love the 4th. Especially the middle movement. That's his night music, serene, yet unstable. The scherzi give me vivid imagery of Hungarian peasants dancing round a fire. The quartets are also a good opportunity to relish in glorious dissonance!


----------



## Quartetfore

I`m going to add one more set of recordings that are very inexpensive.The Rubin Quartet recorded a complete set that was released on Brillant Classics. I like they way they digg into the music, and the sound is very bright which I feel fits the music. As for me, I like the first two quartets very much the last four are interesting but seem to lack a touch of humanity that I need to enjoy a work of music. Quartetfore.


----------



## just Jeff

*Vegh Quartet*



Head_case said:


> I'd recommend the Vegh Cycle!!! It's really worth the extra few pounds


That's the set I have on LP in original German box set Telefunken "Grand Prix Du Disque." These are the 1972 stereo recordings not the earlier mono ones. But this set on CD is only $20.00 for 3CDs at Amazon US, so it's not even a few extra pounds, it's a total steal.

Some of this classical music is so much cheaper to own today than it was in the peak days of LP or earlier days of CD is not even funny.

What a difference 20 years makes.


----------



## Head_case

You're pretty fortunate to have that set. My Végh Cycles on vinyl LP are on Columbia and Auvidis Astrée on CD. 

The classic recordings seem to go down to mid-price then bargain price after a few decades - maybe because they've earned enough royalties? There are some historical recordings though (the Busch & Hungarian & Hollywood Quartets come to mind) which charge a left testicle for each recording


----------



## just Jeff

Head_case said:


> You're pretty fortunate to have that set. My Végh Cycles on vinyl LP are on Columbia and Auvidis Astrée on CD.


Apparantly the art work on some of these original issues fails to make it to the CD age which is very sad. It's sad to me when the original art is colorful and dynamic, expressive in a neat way. And then the CD comes out and has a very drab dull and boring look as the Vegh Quartet Bartok set has now on CD.

Here is my original LP set, stunning audiophile sound (mint condition if I say so myself), and great firey look, and then last is the CD issue which looks so depressing imo.

Look what they done to my set ma....

Perhaps that art is owned by Telefunken Records Germany to this very day, while the music was fairly cheap to license, the artwork was not?


----------



## Head_case

I've got the third one - on the 5" square cover (depressing alright!!), it always kind of shocked me - I couldn't understand why the art director would put naked people swimming in a pubilc bath on the cover of Bartok's six string quartets 

The Telefunken Records' cover is very funky lol. My Columbia ones are plain cream covers with some writing. No images to upload - just use your imagination lol - it wouldn't be hard to surpass the imagination of the art directors of the Columbia vinyl LP set


----------



## just Jeff

Head_case said:


> I've got the third one - on the 5" square cover (depressing alright!!), it always kind of shocked me - I couldn't understand why the art director would put naked people swimming in a pubilc bath on the cover of Bartok's six string quartets
> 
> The Telefunken Records' cover is very funky lol. My Columbia ones are plain cream covers with some writing. No images to upload - just use your imagination lol - it wouldn't be hard to surpass the imagination of the art directors of the Columbia vinyl LP set


Is the Columbia set the US version of the same recordings? I got the impression it is.

Yes, I would call the Telefunken set very funky looking! It is a high gloss laminated box, and looks psychedelic. But the works being modern, and late recordings (at least in the bigger picture), it has the right visual tone imo.

Btw, how is the sound quality on that CD set you have with the B&W picture of swimmers?


----------



## Head_case

Yes - that's the one. The vinyl LP Columbia recordings are very smooth - very rich and textured. I can feel my guts hummm to the sonorous strings 

The Telefunken was probably a European release then? Some recordings resurface, although the quality can be variable depending on the vinyl pressings. 

Compared to the vinyl LP, the CD remaster on Auvidis Astree is not bad at all. I really love the vinyl version, however the CD version is stunning in its own right: perhaps the venue and the sound engineers contributed to this, for when I compare it to the Keller Quartet's 1995 recording in the same location in Switzerland, the Keller Quartet version is almost too 'bright' compared to the vintage warm tube-y resonance of the Vegh Quartet's master recording. 

Definitely a CD to convert the modern DDD crowd back to AAD


----------



## TSHare

Stop the presses: is this a mid-price reissue of the DG Hagen Quartet cycle that has been praised so highly on this thread? Or another cycle by the same forces?

http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Stri...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1282660423&sr=8-1


----------



## Quartetfore

This the DGG recording


----------



## TSHare

It's amazing that DG of all labels is now licensing out its catalog....

I have the Hagen's performance of Quartet #4 on mp3 but have wanted to acquire the complete set for a while. Now might be the time.


----------



## Quartetfore

Its interesting that just this week I read a review on Allmusic.com of the Hagen set. It was a good not great review, but I take all their reviews with a "grain of salt".


----------



## jurianbai

It's back to Bartok. My version is this:
Parker String quartet no.2 and 5









Novak Quartet (Phillip) for Complete set









and I see the Emerson CD in library also.
going to revisit what have I missed since I remember not doing very well in Bartok. After months of enlightement in modern repertoire I think it will be different set of mind now!


----------



## just Jeff

Ok, just to bump this thread up where it belongs...

I just acquired another set, a box set on Hungaroton, the Takacs 1984 3LP set.

I am under the impression that this is slightly older than the Decca recordings? And I am also under the impression that they are not as gtood as the later Decca recordings.

Commonts please. Info below from Disogs. I'd like to think that this is not a waste of time being that the Decca release gets all the prase.

*Bartók - Takács Quartet - The String Quartets - Complete
Label:Hungaroton Classic
Catalog#:HCD 12502-04-2
Format:3 x CD, Album
Box Set

Country:Europe
Released:1984

String Quartet No. 1 Op. 7 Sz. 40 (29:02) 
1.1 I: Lento 9:00 
1.2 II: Allegretto 8:20 
1.3 (Introduzione) Allegro 1:37 
1.4 III: Allegro Vivace 10:05 
String Quartet No. 2 Op. 17 Sz. 67 (26:31) 
1.5 I: Moderato 10:15 
1.6 II: Allegro Molto Capriccioso 7:46 
1.7 III: Lento 8:30 
String Quartet No. 3 Sz. 85 (15:44) 
2.1 Prima Parte: Moderato 5:16 
2.2 Seconda Parte: Allegro 5:37 
2.3 Ricapitolazione Della Prima Parte: Moderato 3:04 
2.4 Coda: Allegro Molto 1:47 
String Quartet No. 4 Sz. 91 (22:16) 
2.5 I: Allegro 5:47 
2.6 II: Prestissimo, Con Sordino 2:49 
2.7 III: Non Troppo Lento 5:17 
2.8 IV: Allegretto Pizzicato 2:46 
2.9 V: Allegro Molto 5:37 
String Quartet No. 5 Sz. 102 (30:01) 
3.1 I: Allegro 7:37 
3.2 II: Adagio Molto 5:28 
3.3 III: Scherzo: Alla Bulgarese (Vivace) 5:10 
3.4 IV: Andante 4:50 
3.5 V: Finale: Allegro Vivace 6:56 
String Quartet No. 6 Sz. 114 (28:28) 
3.6 I: Mesto - Vivace 7:21 
3.7 II: Mesto - Marcia 7:30 
3.8 III: Mesto: Burletta - Moderato 6:52 
3.9 IV: Mesto 6:45

Credits
Artwork By [Design] - Péter Nagy 
Cello - András Fejér 
Composed By - Béla Bartók 
Engineer [Balance] - István Berényi 
Other [Music Notes] - János Kárpáti 
Photography - Sándor Kertész 
Producer [Recording] - András Székely 
Strings - Takács Quartet 
Viola - Gábor Ormai 
Violin [1] - Gábor Takács-Nagy 
Violin [2] - Károly Schranz 
Notes
Stereo 
ARTISJUS

(P) 1984 Hungaroton

Also available on vinyl as SLPD 12502-04 and cassette as MK 12502-04. 
42 page booklet with detailed analysis of each quartet in English, French and German.*


----------



## Head_case

Sorry - I'm not familiar with the their LP cycle. 

It sounds like it's worth it for the 42 page booklet alone. 

i can't say I recall the Hungaraton engineers having a distinctive sound from that era either (unlike Decca or DG). 

How are the recordings compared to other readings which you have?


----------



## just Jeff

Head_case said:


> Sorry - I'm not familiar with the their LP cycle.
> 
> It sounds like it's worth it for the 42 page booklet alone.
> 
> i can't say I recall the Hungaraton engineers having a distinctive sound from that era either (unlike Decca or DG).
> 
> How are the recordings compared to other readings which you have?


I have not dug deep into this set as of yet. But the interesting thing about that later Takács Quartet recording on Decca that get all the attention away from this set, is that reviews on amazong say that the excessive reverb of that Decca set make it a pass even is performances are rather striking.

In which case we are back to the Vegh 70s set as the best

Anyway, that booklet is 42 page wonderful in the Hungaraton box, I really need to read it front to back. It has copies of the original scores in Bela's hand, etc.


----------



## Head_case

Yes - the recording studio is the doom of many a brilliant ensemble.

I'm very satisfied with the Vegh Quartet readings on Auvidis Astree (CD) and the LP set on Columbia. The Keller Quartet would be second choice after all this time. Between the both of these classic recordings, I don't care much for the touted Belcea Quartet or the Artemis Quartet and similar modern clones.

The Zehetmair Quartet reading is superb - they would be really devastating if they come up with a complete cycle with the same consistency in artistry.

Jurianbai - the only Novak Quartet recordings I have are of some obscure Czech LP string quartets of his early microtonal folk influenced string quartets (divergent from Bartoks' worldview. They are a fantastic insight into this composer's works. I couldn't find the complete Stamitz String Quartet cycle affordably so settled on the Novak Quartet. I'm very happy with their readings, although I prefer the Stamitz Quartet by a huge stretch. I'm not sure why Haba fell into obscurity - the opposite direction of Bartok's string quartet cycle. Hmm.










You can hear his music here:

http://www.allmusic.com/album/alois-hba-streichquartette-gesamtaufnahme-w152287


----------



## jurianbai

LOL, at least the composer spare us some warnings with the premises Op. 7, "In Quarter-Tone System" (1920), "In sixth-tone system", "In fifth tone system" etc. The notes in the link sounds god. thanks for bring it up Head_case.


----------



## Head_case

I'd love to get that fabulous set of Stamitz Quartet recordings. but at 78Euro for a set of 4 CDs, it's rather pricey!

Haba is a very rigorous composer. I like him a lot - none of the emotional sterility often associated with atonality of course. Microtonal works and its gentle inflections are just superb! I love the folk influences too. Maybe Santa Claus .... this year ... please please please


----------



## Saturnus

Wow, so many good recordings of the Bartók. I thought I had the most famous one, Tokyo quartet on DG, but it has only been mentioned once. This is what I really like about this forum.
I was quite happy with my Tokyo untill I heard a recording by the Alban Berg Quartet in class. Holy **** I was completely flabbergasted by the pure fire and soul they could put into those Bartók Quartets, but playing everything precicely, at the same time! Now the Tokyo seems rather flat and duly played (a little bit of exaggeration here), and the same goes for a Hyperion-recording of the Budapest string quartet I heard in a CD-store.


----------



## starthrower

I've been listening to a lot of Bartok lately including these CDs:

Six String Quartets-Alban Berg Quartet
Violin Concerto No.2/Violin Rhapsodies-Gil Shaham/CSO
Cantata Profana/The Wooden Prince-Boulez/CSO
Contrasts- original 1940 recordings w/Bartok & Benny Goodman
The Miraculous Mandarin-Budapest Orchestra/Ivan Fischer on Phillips
Music For Strings, Percussion & Celesta-BRT Philharmonic


----------



## Head_case

Funny that - I've got a lot of those works too. For some reason it's Interrupted Intermezzo which I like best - the very first piece I heard by Bartok when I was 11. 

The profundity of his string quartet cycle really demands stereo imaging speakers and a warm amp to bring the instrumental dialogue into real conversation with the listener, particularly for an older mono recording like the one by the classic Végh. 

The only Alban Berg work I have is the Beethoven string quartet cycle. It is more consistently played than the Taneyev Quartet's LP set, however there are individual Beethoven quartets (Harp quartet) which really shine. Otherwise, the Loewenguth Quartet; Vlach Quartet classics on LP are gorgeous for Beethoven.


----------



## KJohnson

These quartets are the kind of pieces that at first hearing you're likely to get bored. It takes repeated listenings (for me, at least) to start seeing the relationships of his "germ themes" and all the fun creativity that Bartok put in there. But you do feel enriched after the experience.


----------



## myaskovsky2002

*bored?*

You are probably speaking about somebody else...

Martin


----------



## starthrower

Some thoughts for those unfamiliar with Bartok's music. I am in the process of getting familiar with several works myself.

From my experience reading reviews about classical music, string quartet listeners seem to be the most passionate about their favorite works, and the most opinionated concerning their preferred recordings. 

You can drive yourself nuts trying to decide what recordings to buy. After reading umpteen reviews about the Bartok's, I decided on a set by the Alban Berg Quartet on EMI which nobody reviewed at Amazon. I love the EMI Gemini series anyway. If you have no Bartok in your collection, just buy some recordings and start listening.

I can't discuss the quartets at this time because I haven't invested enough time listening yet. I do like the overall sound and character of the music after a couple of run throughs. I've been listening to more Bartok in the past year than any other composer. His music is unique and possesses a strong personal voice which I find very appealing. I also find the music free of bombast or any shallow or showy crowd pleasing devices. Every note sounds like it belongs there. Bartok embraces tradition and is also thoroughly modern, but never forbidding. In short, the best of both worlds!


----------



## Sebastien Melmoth

*Bartók*'s String Quartets have never done anything for me; have the Emerson set, never listen to it. Twenty years ago had the Juiliard set on LP.

Consider *Schönberg*'s canon of five SQs infinitely more satisfying intellectually and aesthetically.

Furthermore, enjoy *Reger*'s set of five SQs more than any other 20th C composer after Schönberg.

My 2 cents.


----------



## KJohnson

I didn't mean the quartets are boring. I meant there's so much in them, that you need to invest some serious time to be able to appreciate them. That's all. 

It's actually quite a compliment. I'm sure Bartok would have loved to hear this.


----------



## starthrower

Sebastien Melmoth said:


> *Bartók*'s String Quartets have never done anything for me; have the Emerson set, never listen to it. Twenty years ago had the Juiliard set on LP.
> 
> Consider *Schönberg*'s canon of five SQs infinitely more satisfying intellectually and aesthetically.
> 
> Furthermore, enjoy *Reger*'s set of five SQs more than any other 20th C composer after Schönberg.
> 
> My 2 cents.


I really enjoy the first two Schoenberg quartets. I recently purchased the Insights CD set by the Asasello Quartet.
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=2188529


----------



## starthrower

KJohnson said:


> I didn't mean the quartets are boring. I meant there's so much in them, that you need to invest some serious time to be able to appreciate them. That's all.


That's the key. Don't worry about "understanding" them, just give your brain and ears sufficient time to absorb the music. I'm still working on no.1 after seven years. But I don't listen to them much due to my large collection. I used to scratch my head trying to get into the piano concertos, but now I know them pretty well after hours of listening.


----------



## Mandryka

Sebastien Melmoth said:


> *Bartók*'s String Quartets have never done anything for me; have the Emerson set, never listen to it. Twenty years ago had the Juiliard set on LP.
> 
> Consider *Schönberg*'s canon of five SQs infinitely more satisfying intellectually and aesthetically.
> 
> Furthermore, enjoy *Reger*'s set of five SQs more than any other 20th C composer after Schönberg.
> 
> My 2 cents.


I thought there were four Schoenberg quartets. Or are you thinking of verklärte nacht?


----------



## TurnaboutVox

I managed to hear #1 through #5 live last year at our regional music college (the Royal Northern College of Music in Manchester, UK). The recitals were by various groups, ranging from student quartets through to the Keller Quartet, but all were excellent in their own way. Even though I'd known the quartets since acquiring the Tokyo Quartet's DG accounts on LP as a student in 1982, this was something else again.

It was deeply satisfying to immerse myself in the performances at recital.


----------



## brahms4

Mandryka said:


> I thought there were four Schoenberg quartets. Or are you thinking of verklärte nacht?


Schoenberg had an earlier quartet in D major.Reminds me a little of Dvorak.


----------



## Quartetfore

brahms4 said:


> Schoenberg had an earlier quartet in D major.Reminds me a little of Dvorak.


I have a recording of the work played by the Artis Quartet, and like the music and the performance. In fact, I think that work is one of the best of the post Brahms genre.


----------



## TurnaboutVox

Quartetfore said:


> I have a recording of the work played by the Artis Quartet, and like the music and the performance. In fact, *I think that work is one of the best of the post Brahms genre.*


Brahms salted with a little Dvorak. Quite an improvement on the original IMO... 

Joking aside, I agree that it's a pretty decent work.


----------



## brahms4

Quartetfore said:


> I have a recording of the work played by the Artis Quartet, and like the music and the performance. In fact, I think that work is one of the best of the post Brahms genre.


I like the work very much myself.I like all of Schoenberg`s quartets.It finally dawned on me where I heard music that reminded me of the beginning of the designated Quartet no.1(Op 7),it is the music for the Universal horror movie The House of Frankenstein(1944)!I just researched and found out that the film score composer,Hans Salter, emigrated from Austria and had studied some under Alban Berg.Maybe it is just me,but I find the beginning of both works quite similar after listening on YouTube.


----------



## DavidA

This thread has made me get out and listen to the quartets for the first time. I bought them by the Emerson some time ago


----------



## Casebearer

My first acquaintance with the string quartets dates back to 1975 when I bought them played by the Tátrai Quartet as part of the Complete Edition issued by Hungaroton. I've never needed anything else. This Love is Absolute!


----------



## Casebearer

I also own the string quartets played by the Takács Quartet (on Hungaroton as well but from 1984) but I never really listen to those.


----------



## Larkenfield

The Hungarian Ramor String Quartet are the only Bartok performances I've ever cared about. They are not played ugly and harsh like too many other string quartets play them and ruin them. Good performances are accessible to all, immediately, but people don't recommend them because they think that a strident harshness is the way the quartets are supposed to be played.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B004ZPGTJW/ref=mp_s_a_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1519478175&sr=1-6&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=bartok+string+quartets&dpPl=1&dpID=51nYePgKnfL&ref=plSrch


----------



## Mandryka

Casebearer said:


> My first acquaintance with the string quartets dates back to 1975 when I bought them played by the Tátrai Quartet as part of the Complete Edition issued by Hungaroton. I've never needed anything else. This Love is Absolute!


I listened to Tatrai play the 6th very recently, I liked it very much -- the 6th is a quartet which I find really challenging, so I was glad to find a performance which interested me.

Their approach, particularly their grey shading, is quite distinctive and I don't think you'd regret hearing others, especially if you're interested in Quartets 3-5. You know many quartets have brought new things to say in the music, quartets like the Zehetmair for example. Indeed I'd say that the very earliest recordings from The New Music Quartet and The Juilliard Quartet are full of good ideas.


----------



## paulbest

ChamberNut said:


> Here is a thread to discuss Bartok's string quartets.
> 
> Yesterday, I was listening to his String Quartet # 1. The first mvt "Lento" definitely reminded me of Beethoven's String Quartet # 14, Op. 131, the 1st mvt. Just wondering if anyone else who listens to Bartok's quartets has encountered this?
> 
> Listening to Bartok the last few weeks, and it's definitely very different than what I'm "used to" hearing. Having said that, I really enjoy SQ # 1 and think it to be the easiest of the quartets to listen to in terms of the transition.
> 
> I also enjoy SQ# 4 very much. Love the Allegretto Pizzicato 4th mvt.


Bartok's 4th SQ 
is a 
DUD. 
I hate that work,,,
1 down 5 more to examine critical. 
why could Bartok write just one great SQ 
such as Maurice Ravel's SQ??
anyone know?


----------



## paulbest

wow looks like my probation is over,,,the above post, went automatically,,,now just after I come off probation,,,i post a most unwelcoming comment to all the Bartok fans we have here,,,but seriously,,,is the 4th really anything *great* . I mean where is the ravelian beauty? 
I mean , justa linch of beauty,,and I would not have made the above comment. 
Does this honest and fair post disqualify me once again for posting here on TC? 
w/o mods pre approval proof readings?

That is what made TC great , freedom to critique w/o being unfair or biased.


----------



## paulbest

Larkenfield said:


> The Hungarian Ramor String Quartet are the only Bartok performances I've ever cared about. They are not played ugly and harsh like too many other string quartets play them and ruin them. Good performances are accessible to all, immediately, but people don't recommend them because they think that a strident harshness is the way the quartets are supposed to be played.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B004ZPGTJW/ref=mp_s_a_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1519478175&sr=1-6&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=bartok+string+quartets&dpPl=1&dpID=51nYePgKnfL&ref=plSrch


when you click on to purchase,,,another cd pops up on the sellers list.

Not sure exactlyw hich set you are referring to,,as it seems OOP


----------



## paulbest

OK found it, Just based on hearing 2 30 second clips,,I can tell, this is the set to have. 
But please note the 2 amazon sellers offering price.

$1539.39

Sorry my budget only allows up to 
$1K on a rare OOP cd.
Maybe I could send a offer, low ball,,,at $1K,,and 
maybe either would accept..
30% off ask, ain't bad.
'
that's a bargain @ 30% off.


https://www.amazon.com/String-Quart...bartok+tatrai&qid=1564426654&s=gateway&sr=8-1


----------



## Bwv 1080

Larkenfield said:


> The Hungarian Ramor String Quartet are the only Bartok performances I've ever cared about. They are not played ugly and harsh like too many other string quartets play them and ruin them. Good performances are accessible to all, immediately, but people don't recommend them because they think that a strident harshness is the way the quartets are supposed to be played.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B004ZPGTJW/ref=mp_s_a_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1519478175&sr=1-6&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=bartok+string+quartets&dpPl=1&dpID=51nYePgKnfL&ref=plSrch


C'mon its not 1953, Emerson, Takacs, Tokyo & Julliard all have lovely recordings

And if parts of the 3rd & 4th quartets do not sound harsh, they are not being playing right


----------



## Littlephrase

paulbest said:


> Bartok's 4th SQ
> is a
> DUD.
> I hate that work,,,
> 1 down 5 more to examine critical.
> why could Bartok write just one great SQ
> such as Maurice Ravel's SQ??
> anyone know?


All six of Bartok's quartets are masterpieces. I'm sorry you don't appreciate them.


----------



## paulbest

well there is at least one amazon comment who has given up on Bartok's SQ's, as *unappealing, not inviting* paraphrasing mine.

Look I've tried at least 4 sets, make that 6,,I recall I have kept at least 1, but it is in boxes, as I moved recently,,not sure, I may still have one set..

This is what makes TC great,,,we can talk over recordings and try to help locate a recording that works for ..us...
I understand the SQ's have their dissonances /edges, , , and sure there are many which *might work*,,,but after a while,,,they don't,,work..out,,,something is amiss..and now , I found the recording which does work,,and good thing is I do not have to fork out

$1539.39
I may already have this 1 set left in my collection,,can not recall, 
but I went ahead and just clicked the order on amazon,,gota bargain ofa deal. 
under $10 + $5 ship.

so finally , after some 2 decades,,and oh,,I see when I clicked on the listing,,it said, *You bought this set in 2004*,,as I say,,might still be there.may not,,and with the last bargain price set,,i thought,,why not,,,.

Here is the 
*Mystery set*

I like this New Hungarian SQ approach...takes off some of the edge and makes them more warm and inviting...which brings up this thought

How important is the violist strength ina SQ performance?

Now I guess you could say
*how important are 4 wheels ona car*
and that's my point.
In a SQ
The 2 violins do their thing, the cellist does his, 
No issues.
But the violist 
Now here is the clutch, the wheels that make the thing go.

I figured this out with my new cd set of Schnittke's SQ's. 
The Molinari /from Canada. 
The violist is the star of the show. 
It is his outstanding, superior melding factor which makes all 4 SQ's a high success.

I plan to make a topic on that Q, The violist significance in a successful SQ.

I might come around to the 4th SQ via The New Hungarian, who knows.


----------



## paulbest

Littlephrase1913 said:


> All six of Bartok's quartets are masterpieces. I'm sorry you don't appreciate them.


as I say, when the New Hungarian set arrives, i'll hear the 4th SQ right away.
I am not so sure how it is suppose to go. as few SQ groups seem to figure out how to present Bartok's music in a *approachable* (as 1 YT comment has it, he has given up on Bartok's SQ;s) manner...I think the whole issue with my not findinfa acceptable SQ set, has been the 
violist in every group, has been *average*, with Bartok, to makea success, *average violist* won;'t work.


----------



## Mandryka

paulbest said:


> I mean where is the ravelian beauty?


In the allegretto pizzicato.


----------



## CnC Bartok

paulbest said:


> Bartok's 4th SQ
> is a
> DUD.
> I hate that work,,,
> 1 down 5 more to examine critical.
> why could Bartok write just one great SQ
> such as Maurice Ravel's SQ??
> anyone know?


Because Bartok was Bartok, and Ravel was Ravel? Bela 6 - 1 Maurice in the great Quartet stakes.

I see your inane insistence on black-and-white judgment and knee-jerk dismissal of indisputable masterpieces hasn't diminished.....


----------



## Mandryka

CnC Bartok said:


> Because Bartok was Bartok, and Ravel was Ravel? Bela 6 - 1 Maurice in the great Quartet stakes.
> 
> I see your inane insistence on black-and-white judgment and knee-jerk dismissal of indisputable masterpieces hasn't diminished.....


Do you know if Bartok and Ravel knew each other, or had an opinion of each other's work? Ravel went to the US, I'm not sure if Bartok was there or if they met.


----------



## CnC Bartok

I believe they met in. Paris at some conference or other in the early 1920s, but I'll have to check!


----------



## paulbest

Mandryka said:


> Do you know if Bartok and Ravel knew each other, or had an opinion of each other's work? Ravel went to the US, I'm not sure if Bartok was there or if they met.


Not sure if this image is correct, I've read something like
*Ravel sat around the radio on Saturday afternoons, listening to the evening broadcast,,when Bartok was on, he had smirks and snides…*. 
You know how creative composers react to each others works.

and No I have not finished my quick knee jerk hot headed, biased judgements,,although the mods were gracious enough to alolow my posts to log in w/o delay, w/o pre scan.

I am just repeating what I read over at another amazon or was it YT comment, , yes amazon comment, that he had enough of Bartok's SQ's, as they were not *approachable*,...,,,and then came the attacks. 
I posted a comment in support.
Why?
Look, why has everyone tried this SQ group, then this set, then yet another.
No one can agree which offers most agreeable performances.

I am more forgiving now in my later yrs than before'
That's for sure.
I tried both Tokyo, and thought the RCA record was the best,,,later on, it did not work out. 
IMHO this 
New Hungarian set may offer the best all around perforamnces,,,They seem to understand the inner core of the SQ's. 
Maybe a bit more romantic, lets say less modern.
They keep the music in control , 
The violist holds the whole together and when it arrives, I'll go hear the 4th. 
Somehow , the way I hear the music/cd format, on my comp drive, and how I hear it on YT upload, has different effects on me, not sure why this is. 
Let me head over to the 4th right now,,see what my issues were earlier today....be back soon,,,keep the comments coming.


----------



## flamencosketches

paulbest said:


> I mean where is the ravelian beauty?


This is Bartók, not Ravel. I don't suppose you expect "Ravelian beauty" when you listen to Elliott Carter or Hans Henze?

The 4th string quartet is an incredible work, it's too bad you don't like it!






I really enjoyed the above lecture. It goes really in-depth and allowed me to pick up on some things I wouldn't have heard otherwise.

Since you brought up Ravel, if you liked the previous video, have this one:


----------



## flamencosketches

Anyway, it's about damn time I get a recording of these quartets with a Hungarian ensemble, I only have the Juilliard and Emerson. Love the Emerson, lukewarm about the Juilliard. I believe it's their earliest recording, on Columbia originally.

I'm looking at this one:









... or maybe the Takács on Decca...?

I'm more than satisfied with the Emerson Quartet cycle of Bartók, but I've heard that there are two ways to play them, the American way and the Hungarian way, and I'm curious to see what people mean.

Anyone else think that the first two quartets are really good, possibly underrated...?


----------



## paulbest

Imagine going to a concert
1st up
ravel's SQ.
Next up
Bartok's 4th.
how should the audience react, upon the *termination* of the 4th?
applaud?
Modernist though I am, 
The 4th just does not win me over,,,
I'll reach for one of Shostkovich or Schnittke before I hear the 4th. 



I think its only the 4th which does not appeal to me.
.,,,or I'll reach for ,,Schoenberg's 4th before Bartok's 4th,,,I note there was a topic some time ago,
*Schoenberg or Bartok...*
Bartok took the votes 2 to 1. 
Schoenberg has Bartok on the SQ's.


----------



## CnC Bartok

flamencosketches said:


> Anyway, it's about damn time I get a recording of these quartets with a Hungarian ensemble, I only have the Juilliard and Emerson. Love the Emerson, lukewarm about the Juilliard. I believe it's their earliest recording, on Columbia originally.
> 
> I'm looking at this one:
> 
> View attachment 121980
> 
> 
> ... or maybe the Takács on Decca...?
> 
> I'm more than satisfied with the Emerson Quartet cycle of Bartók, but I've heard that there are two ways to play them, the American way and the Hungarian way, and I'm curious to see what people mean.
> 
> Anyone else think that the first two quartets are really good, possibly underrated...?


Flam - there are many ways in which a quartet can play Bartok, not just two!!

Just putting my penny's worth in, I'd strongly recommend the Takacs set, way ahead of the Emersons, who are far too monochromatic and aggressive for me, and ahead of the DGG Hungarian, which despite the air of authenticity (Szekely!) Are a bit too smooth and polite for my tastes. Keeping away from the OOP recordings, you could also try the Keller Quartet, the DGG Tokyo's, or the wonderfully fresh set by the Belcea on EMI?


----------



## paulbest

Just cked amazon reviews on the Hungarian DG sett,,,alot of 5 stars,,,
YET we have 1 3 stars, 
Steven in 2014
says
*work-a-day performances*,,,and he goes on to say, *I already had 3 so so CD sets, + several other LP recordings,,so I DID NOT NEED JUST ANOTHER SO SO.....*,,,have the set a ,,,a very GENEROUS 3 styars...I wrote a comment on his review,,,*You were tooo generous,,I would have given no more than 2 stars*

as I mentioned earlier,,
THESE BARTOK SQ's HAVE ISSUES. 
Take that as you wish.

I have The NEW Hungarian arriving next week, I will posta comment,,as I mentioned earlier,,not sure why,,,the YT upload is one experience,,,the actual cd in my computer player with same $10 speakser,,,is yet another experience. 
Why this is, so, I have no idea,. 
From the YT upload,,the New Hungarian sounds likea winner to my ears,,,maybe I'll try to dig out that copy today,,as amazon says I already purchased the set back in 2004.
THe Bartok SQ's have issues


----------



## CnC Bartok

^^^ In which case, I will echo comments from others, and say it is a shame you cannot appreciate these incomparably wonderful works. The pleasure they have given me over the years is immeasurable. But they may be for you inaccessible, just as Britten or your Schnittke (both of whom I find inexecrable) will never be for me. Neither of these makes either of us a worse person!

I find it incredible that you can take the fact that there are dozens of Quartets who have recorded these works, and yet we fans of them cannot agree on which is the best, as a reason for denigrating them as works. The inanity of that needs no further clarification. On that basis the Beethoven Symphonies, recorded hundreds of times, are the epitome of trash?

I do wish you would work out the difference between a comment along the lines "Bartók's Quartets are ******", and one which says "I really don't like Bartók's Quartets". In my experience, the latter type of comment tends to embark fewer people's paridae. You obviously have string opinions on music, which is great, but opinions dressed as irrefutable facts are still opinions, no more. Your opinions would be far more interesting to me, and maybe to others if they were expressed in less gratingly brash terms.


----------



## paulbest

No , you miss understand me, and/or I have not made myself more ,,accessibly,,,clea-ER
I do have fondness for Bartok's 1-6, minus the 4th.

Its just that I needa group which can convey more poetic , , melodic , and with less ofa modernistic approach,,also has to offer cohesion, nothing disjointed sounding. 
am I asking for too much?
Yes , its seems that I am. but I am nota loner,,there are others complaining over at amazon.

Tell you what, let me dig through my packed moving boxes,,to see which sets I have and revisit the SQ's,...its been some time...
I am only basing some of these strong opinions from the YT uploads.

I am a believer than a SQ group has the power to unlock the composers intentions.
This is what I am after, a group that opens the doors 
am I asking too much?

Here is the Julliard 1963 recording, *The one and ONLY*,,*The definitive*,,*oh it does not get any better*,,,*THIS is the set to own*,,,etc,,blah

after just not evena minute,,actually much much less.
I can't stand this group's interpretation,,and get this, this is THE acclaimed set,,been hearing this now for decades. 
??
Its not , the best, far from, very far from.....


----------



## paulbest

Ok finally, found what I was looking for. 
It was 
The New Budapest SQ/Hyperion /reecorded 1992 Feb and Nov/Released 1993/reissued 1996

I could not remember this cd set, not for my life...
anyway, You can ck out my comments from 2006 and again updated comments in 2011...seems Joeseph, above my comment, is is complete agreement with my assessment. He also has several sets, yet it is the New Budapest which rises above all others.

I have the New Hungarian set arriving any day 
so we will have
The New Budapest vs The New Hungarian
Honestly, this is only my hunch, both will be so competitive, it will result in nothing gained , except 2 wonderful experiences, The winner will be YOU.
who knows , maybe via either I may come around to the 4th.

man I love his 1st SQ

This New Budapest is not up on YT.

last comment, I prefer this New Budapest over the Tokyo/RCA. The Tokyo/DG I did not care for.

https://www.amazon.com/Bartok-Quartets-New-Budapest-Quartet/dp/B000002ZE9


----------



## Larkenfield

Bwv 1080 said:


> C'mon its not 1953, Emerson, Takacs, Tokyo & Julliard all have lovely recordings
> 
> And if parts of the 3rd & 4th quartets do not sound harsh, they are not being playing right


The outstanding Ramor SQ recordings were recorded in 1961, not 1953, and they're still available on Denon. Please update your information, nor have you probably heard them. I did not mention any specific quartet recordings by others that have sounded harsh, but I have come across them or I wouldn't have made a point of mentioning the great Hungarian Ramor performances that sound authentic and idiomatic in spirit. I loathe Bartok's marvelous SQs when they're played with too much harshness and edge and lack musicality. It's a turn off. I also prefer the quartets played by Hungarians. This is wonderful music but it can be ruined when the musicians go unconscious with their idea of "modernism". Some listeners have given up on these works as being unappealing and uninviting and I can understand why depending on who's playing them, and yet there are alternative recordings that do not lack energy and vitality but which are still authentic and musical.


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

I'll cut and paste my comments from the other thread going on this.


I have the Emerson Quartet which I found bargain bin and like it considerably. I considered Ramor Quartet on a low priced download but can only listen to samples and the sound seems flat and a bit dull to me (not the performance!). Dull sound will never do for these works.

The Tatrai Quartet I listened to on YouTube and would get that one but the price point is beyond my usual limits.

Think I will stick with what I have.


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

Larkenfield said:


> The Hungarian Ramor String Quartet are the only Bartok performances I've ever cared about. They are not played ugly and harsh like too many other string quartets play them and ruin them. Good performances are accessible to all, immediately, but people don't recommend them because they think that a strident harshness is the way the quartets are supposed to be played.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B004ZPGTJW/ref=mp_s_a_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1519478175&sr=1-6&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=bartok+string+quartets&dpPl=1&dpID=51nYePgKnfL&ref=plSrch


Ah, someone familiar with the Ramor set. The only place I can hear before buying is the 30 second samples on Amazon. Am I hearing right that the sound quality seems muted/dull in the slightest? I don't know, maybe once I get it on my music app where there is more sound refinement, it is different.

I can find almost no info on this Quartet. I'm guessing they are Hungarian?


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

Bwv 1080 said:


> C'mon its not 1953, Emerson, Takacs, Tokyo & Julliard all have lovely recordings
> 
> And if parts of the 3rd & 4th quartets do not sound harsh, they are not being playing right


Only newer recordings are worth considering? What an odd idea.


----------



## Mandryka

Oldhoosierdude said:


> Only newer recordings are worth considering? What an odd idea.


The Juilliard's first Bartok is from about the same time as the Ramor.


----------



## Mandryka

Oldhoosierdude said:


> I can find almost no info on this Quartet. I'm guessing they are Hungarian?


There are three transfers: Denon, Tuxedo Music and Bibliotheque Nationale de France. I think the last, the BNF, is best, but there's not much in it, and I could be wrong, all are listenable. The sound is historic, but not too painful.

People who want a more lyrical approach to the all the quartets but who need good sound may well enjoy the Alban Berg Quartet.


----------



## Larkenfield

Oldhoosierdude said:


> Ah, someone familiar with the Ramor set. The only place I can hear before buying is the 30 second samples on Amazon. Am I hearing right that the sound quality seems muted/dull in the slightest? I don't know, maybe once I get it on my music app where there is more sound refinement, it is different.
> 
> I can find almost no info on this Quartet. I'm guessing they are Hungarian?


The Ramor SQ Bartok recordings are available on Amazon, including as an inexpensive download:
https://www.amazon.com/Bartok-Ramor-Quartet-Béla-Bartók/dp/B004ZPGTJW. They were the first Bartok string quartet performances that I ever liked. Take the astringent and harsh performances by some others and dump them in the ocean, as far as I'm concerned. One can have incisive, clear and modern Bartok, and still play them as music, still play them with the kind of musically they deserve. Bartok was a modern, an uncompromising modern, but unnecessary and inappropriate harshness, not to mention a forbidding astringency, can be a turn-off for some listeners, and I found the Ramors ideal, especially as an introduction to these great string quartets. As mentioned before, the Ramor SQ were Hungarians and loved Bartok.


----------



## starthrower

Thanks, Larkenfield! That harsh and astringent quality you mention is so prevalent among Bartok quartet recordings. I have two sets by Takacs, and Alban Berg Quartet and I don't enjoy the sound. Anyone who has attended a live performance knows that strings don't sound that way when you're in the room. I'll look into the Ramor Quartet to see if I can live with their sound.

I'll check Presto Classical. Their samples seem to be longer and of better quality than Amazon.


----------



## paulbest

Yes 
harsh, steely Bartok SQ's,. you can dump in the trash can , today, That weird approach is too post mod and is not what Bartok intended.
This is a good time to note what amazon is doing,,, a few days ago, i posted a *review* (=comment) on amazon's review page fora new set I just received The New Hungarian SQ on Hungatron. 
You can read my comment in the link to the set mentioned by Larkenfeld.
Why amazon allows the NHSQ comment to jump over to this Ramor set, I have no idea,,,but6 i posted on another comment where i state, *make sure everyone places the cd in review at the top of the review*..I simply forgot to do so here. 
Ck out my aka handle *the honest review guy*,,,btw just from hearing some clips of Ramor,,the edge/steely treatment is taken off, agree, but its too syrupy, cohesion is broken...The New Hundarian takes these SQ's, like the Ramor, but has more cohesion.

Paul
The Honest Review Guy/aka The 1 minute clip master review guy.

https://www.amazon.com/Bartok-Ramor-Quartet-Béla-Bartók/dp/B004ZPGTJW

I will now update my review to mention that my comment refers to the New Hungarian set...also I have the Hungarian /DG set on order.


----------



## paulbest

starthrower said:


> Thanks, Larkenfield!
> 
> I'll check Presto Classical. Their samples seem to be longer and of better quality than Amazon.


 I also use Presto , only if I can not figure out a opinion on amazon's 30 second clips,,,amazon long ago offered, a wopping 1 minute clip,,,,,from that tiny 1 minute window , i could detect, whethera cd was 1,2,3,4 or 5 stars..only sometimes i struck out,,,useually i hit home runs, 
= either avoid purchase based on a chat forum members recommend,,..= home run as i now had cash for other superior recordings,,,or it was a rare bonifide comment and i bought it,,= rum run. usually the comment/suggestion to buy was off, as in larkenfeld's case,,i can eaily hear its too syrupy, lacks cohesion,,Now the New Hungarian also takes all the bite/harsh edge/steely aspect off,,yet they just squueze in the door to keep the tempos moving forward...a tad slower,,and would suffer as the ramor suffers,,,,Bartok wrote some interesting SQ's, but he sure wrote them where no group could understand = they possess this weirdness, odd ball , stragness,. Not sure why Bartok could not just write 1 or 2 great SQ's, like Ravel,,instead of 6 which has interpretative issues.
Paul
The Honest Review guy


----------



## Mandryka

What do you guys make of Ramor in 4? Don’t you think it’s a bit too heavy in the first movement, like elephants dancing? And the articulation is strange, as if they want to spell everything out syll-a-ble by syll-a-ble. Just not much good IMO.


----------



## paulbest

just heard a few (3) 30 sec clips of the EMI release, The Alban Berg SQ's *attempt*.
You see that group plays the SQ's where ALL of Bartok's issues blare and glare, in high relief. 
Everyone over at amazon gave the set 5 stars. I would grant it a generous 4,,or lets say, 8 stars out a possible 10.
paul
The Honest Review Guy

To be fair and honest,,I just visited YT uplod of Alban Berg SQ,,,just bumped it up 1 extra star,,,4/5 or better 8 out of 10. Its OK, 
I prefer others. 
I have 3 good sets,,i certainly do not need a 4th *version* as i say Bartok wrote some odd sections...I think he was feeling the pinch to modernize his writing as the 2nd Viennese greats were showing off their genius,,,as i say the only SQ i have some reservations about is the 3rd SQ,,all others i like. 
I especially love the 1st SQ.


----------



## Mandryka

paulbest said:


> just heard a few (3) 30 sec clips of the EMI release, The Alban Berg SQ's *attempt*.
> You see that group plays the SQ's where ALL of Bartok's issues blare and glare, in high relief.
> Everyone over at amazon gave the set 5 stars. I would grant it a generous 4,,or lets say, 8 stars out a possible 10.
> paul
> The Honest Review Guy
> 
> To be fair and honest,,I just visited YT uplod of Alban Berg SQ,,,just bumped it up 1 extra star,,,4/5 or better 8 out of 10. Its OK,
> I prefer others.
> I have 3 good sets,,i certainly do not need a 4th *version* as i say Bartok wrote some odd sections...I think he was feeling the pinch to modernize his writing as the 2nd Viennese greats were showing off their genius,,,as i say the only SQ i have some reservations about is the 3rd SQ,,all others i like.
> I especially love the 1st SQ.


Another idea I had when I mentioned ABQ, maybe check them if you can, is Keller.

My own view is that the approach needs to be different for 3,4 and 5 than for 6, that Ramor did a good job in 6. I don't know 1 and 2 at all.

If I had to pick just one recording of a Bartok quartet, it would be The New Music Quartet playing 3.


----------



## starthrower

The first mistake is to put any stock in Amazon reviewers. Listening at Presto, many of the ensembles sound similar. I liked the sound of the Mikrokosmos Quartet. The only ensemble I really didn't like is Fine Arts because the tempos are rushed. But I didn't sample all eight pages of recordings. I've been through this routine several times over the years and I never get anywhere. If I do find an ensemble I like, the CDs aren't available. But I don't expect to encounter silky sounding Bartok quartets.


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

Larkenfield said:


> The Ramor SQ Bartok recordings are available at Amazon, including as an inexpensive download:
> https://www.amazon.com/Bartok-Ramor-Quartet-Béla-Bartók/dp/B004ZPGTJW. They were the first Bartok string quartet performances that I ever liked. Take the astringent and harsh performances by some others and dump them in the ocean, as far as I'm concerned. One can have incisive, clear and modern Bartok, and still play them as music, still play them with the kind of musically they deserve. Bartok was a modern, an uncompromising modern, but unnecessary and inappropriate harshness, not to mention a forbidding astringency, can be a turn-off for some listeners, and I found the Ramors ideal, especially as an introduction to these great string quartets. As mentioned before, the Ramor SQ were Hungarians and loved Bartok.


Thank you kindly.

Like I mentioned, I have the Emerson SQ in this and like it. I have heard other SQ recordings and yes harsh and whatever. So, they aren't supposed to sound that way? Wonder why that is the norm. I certainly don't prefer harsh if it can be avoided.


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

starthrower said:


> Thanks, Larkenfield! That harsh and astringent quality you mention is so pretty prevalent among Bartok quartet recordings. I have two sets by Takacs, and Alban Berg Quartet and I don't enjoy the sound. Anyone who has attended a live performance knows that strings don't sound that way when you're in the room. I'll look into the Ramor Quartet to see if I can live with their sound.
> 
> I'll check Presto Classical. Their samples seem to be longer and of better quality than Amazon.


Ah, Presto. Did not check them but will. I prefer dealing with them as Amazon tends to want to own your soul.


----------



## CnC Bartok

I very much like the Ramor set, a pleasant surprise and a good recommendation. That said, it's not my first choice, even if I wouldn't want to be without it. I love their musicality. I think these wonderful works can only sound uninspiring if the quartet plays them purely as a virtuosic vehicle for their own sense of importance, or with a sense of indifference themselves. So I feel I have but three poor sets, and even here all things are relative. There IS harshness in these works, but it has a context, there is also fun in there too. The very best sets bring that out as well. The more contrast the better!


----------



## starthrower

Amazon is a typical gargantuan retailer with poor attention to detail. The reviews for different editions are mixed together. And many items still in print show 3rd party vendor copies only at scalper prices. I just saw a Chandos CD there going for 89 dollars. I checked Presto and it's in stock there for 10.50


----------



## Larkenfield

starthrower said:


> Thanks, Larkenfield! That harsh and astringent quality you mention is so pretty prevalent among Bartok quartet recordings. I have two sets by Takacs, and Alban Berg Quartet and I don't enjoy the sound. Anyone who has attended a live performance knows that strings don't sound that way when you're in the room. I'll look into the Ramor Quartet to see if I can live with their sound.
> 
> I'll check Presto Classical. Their samples seem to be longer and of better quality than Amazon.


You're welcome! I hope you like them. If not, you're welcome to bawl me out. But I preferred not to be bawled out by those who haven't heard them. The main reason I mentioned the Ramor is to give more people a chance to enjoy these marvelous string quartets that some people find forbidding and unwelcoming because they're playing too aggressively. I think that's a mistake and misinterpretation of Bartok's intentions. As the series progresses, it's the Fifth for me that's the peak in the series, as they get increasingly more complex as he goes, though I haven't heard them in a while. Such a wonderful composer-for me, one of the great 20th-century masters. He's of the earth.


----------



## starthrower

Here's the Bartok quartet listings at Presto.
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/search?search_query=+bartok+string+quartets

Honestly, after going through five pages of ensembles listening to the 3rd movt of no.1 I didn't hear anything I liked. I don't think these digital samples are a reliable source for making a determination on a good sounding recording. The Ramor's are one of the worst sounding samples, so if they sound good on CD then these samples are not an accurate representation.


----------



## Mandryka

starthrower said:


> Here's the Bartok quartet listings at Presto.
> https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/search?search_query=+bartok+string+quartets
> 
> Honestly, after going through five pages of ensembles listening to the 3rd movt of no.1 I didn't hear anything I liked. I don't think these digital samples are a reliable source for making a determination on a good sounding recording. The Ramor's are one of the worst sounding samples, so if they sound good on CD then these samples are not an accurate representation.


Noone has ever said that the sound in Ramor is any good, the question is whether musically what they do is interesting.

I agree that the Mikrokosmos are well recorded.


----------



## starthrower

Mandryka said:


> Noone has ever said that the sound in Ramor is any good, the question is whether musically what they do is interesting.


You haven't read Larkenfield's comments? My feeling is that some of this is intrinsic to the music itself.


----------



## paulbest

CnC Bartok said:


> I very much like the Ramor set, a pleasant surprise and a good recommendation. That said, it's not my first choice, even if I wouldn't want to be without it. I love their musicality. I think these wonderful works can only sound uninspiring if the quartet plays them purely as a virtuosic vehicle for their own sense of importance, or with a sense of indifference themselves. So I feel I have but three poor sets, and even here all things are relative. There IS harshness in these works, but it has a context, there is also fun in there too. The very best sets bring that out as well. The more contrast the better!


There might be some dissonance throughout all bartok's SQ;s. Which is why we are all seeking the finest recordings of the dozen or so available, *the best of the best*. 
This New Budapest set has beena part of my collection for ages now, ]
Listen to the opening of SQ6. 
Have you ever in your life, heard anything more beautiful?

There are passages throughout the Bartok 6 which offer these mesmerizing sounds.

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8661522--bartok-complete-string-quartets


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

As a follow up. I did sample the Ramor Quartet in this work on Presto. I could hear no issue with the sound. I did go ahead with a purchase for $5.00 and have listened to longer samples of each quartet before settling down to a real listen. I also did a back and forth with my Emerson recording and that was interesting. It shows me why I seek more than one interpretation of works like this. The groups have a different approach for sure, although I do not find Emerson SQ to be harsh, quicker and not as full or lush for sure but it works for their approach. Bartok SQ's are fascinating works for me that I may have never given much thought if it were not for TC.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

flamencosketches said:


> Anyway, it's about damn time I get a recording of these quartets with a Hungarian ensemble, I only have the Juilliard and Emerson. Love the Emerson, lukewarm about the Juilliard. I believe it's their earliest recording, on Columbia originally.
> 
> I'm looking at this one:
> 
> View attachment 121980
> 
> 
> ... or maybe the Takács on Decca...?
> 
> I'm more than satisfied with the Emerson Quartet cycle of Bartók, but I've heard that there are two ways to play them, the American way and the Hungarian way, and I'm curious to see what people mean.
> 
> Anyone else think that the first two quartets are really good, possibly underrated...?


I have that Hungarian DG and like it very much. Also have Juilliard '50 and Vegh '54. Looking now into the Takacs.

For years my only recording was the Tokyo DG, but I sold it away after I got the Hungarian. More idiomatic, less clinical.


----------



## Mandryka

Oldhoosierdude said:


> I could hear no issue with the sound.


That's strange, did you have your hearing aid in?


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

Mandryka said:


> That's strange, did you have your hearing aid in?


It has that early stereo recording sound to it if that's what people are whining about. It is not a digital recording. There are countless excellent recordings of music available that are before the digital age. But if digital only is your thing, more power to you. There's nothing wrong with the sound for some of us, we have a wider pallet.

If you want to make something of it, I'll get a longer oxygen tube and my good walker and we can step outside.


----------



## paulbest

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I have that Hungarian DG and like it very much. Also have Juilliard '50 and Vegh '54. Looking now into the Takacs.
> 
> For years my only recording was the Tokyo DG, but I sold it away after I got the Hungarian. More idiomatic, less clinical.


Good luck with both Takacs And yes both Tokyo DG and RCA are too clinical. Excellent groups, yet in Bartok we have all figured out excellent playing only goes so ffar.
The only groups that work for me are the Hungarians. 
The Takacs are Huns, but they miss the spirit of the music as do other hungarian groups. 
I have the Hungarian SQ/DG arriving next week.


----------



## paulbest

Takacs DECCA group, 3 stars. , or lets say 7/10. 
I only keep 8+ records in Bartok, all others go


----------



## paulbest

Now this Takacs group is much better,,,whether this is a 8 or 9 star record, i have no idea. But it is superior to their later DECCA group, thats for sure. 
Bet you can find the DECCA cd set on the cheap , everyone dumping.


----------



## paulbest

Possibly the 1954 VEGH group has been mentioned either on this 9 page Bartok topic of the other Bartok SQ topic,,,just got back from listening to all of 10 seconds worth of the opening to SQ 1 on a YT upload,
Odd recording , thats for sure. 
That is the oddest take I've ever heard of SQ 1 , opening. 
Too strange for my taste.


----------



## paulbest

Oldhoosierdude said:


> Ah, someone familiar with the Ramor set. The only place I can hear before buying is the 30 second samples on Amazon. Am I hearing right that the sound quality seems muted/dull in the slightest? I don't know, maybe once I get it on my music app where there is more sound refinement, it is different.
> 
> I can find almost no info on this Quartet. I'm guessing they are Hungarian?


Presto Classical has longer clips..I was not that impressed with the opening to the 1st SQ.
I will pass. The opening to the SQ 1 is my goto reference. 
*not that impressed* = its OK, but I can not say *great*.

and its on DENNON, a japanese label which picks up these OOP releases which no other label will carry.
Dennon is nothing about great recordings.

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8635156--bartok-the-six-string-quartets#tracklist


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

paulbest said:


> Presto Classical has longer clips..I was not that impressed with the opening to the 1st SQ.
> I will pass. The opening to the SQ 1 is my goto reference.
> *not that impressed* = its OK, but I can not say *great*.
> 
> and its on DENNON, a japanese label which picks up these OOP releases which no other label will carry.
> Dennon is nothing about great recordings.
> 
> https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8635156--bartok-the-six-string-quartets#tracklist


The beginning of SQ #1 has a bit of fuzz, that's true. This isn't a recording for all. It is early stereo days quality, which is warmer and not as distinct as digital. That said, there are thousands of stereo days recordings out there, some are quite legendary and sound quality varies. I find this recording as acceptable as most from that period, and middle of the road sound wise. As for approach, Ramor is a laid back interpretation, which many do not like for these works. I don't know what Bartok intended but many groups interpret these works very hard edged and harsh (if that is the right term). My other recording with Emerson SQ is not the hard edge I have heard from other groups but more so than Ramor. I like the contrast of the two. I have heard one of the Takacs recordings, a Berg, and another but can't remember who, and didn't care for these. Too edgy for me. I do like what I have heard from Tatrai SQ but the recording is too costly for my tastes. I think I have the bases covered to my satisfaction. I don't believe I will seek any additional recording unless I happen on one at a good price.


----------



## Josquin13

For those looking to hear Bartok's 6 String Quartets in sterling sonics, the Párkányi Quartet offers one of the better sets, IMO. Their Praga cycle was recorded on three superb sounding DSD hybrid SACDs. Although I suppose some might find they play with more tonal heft and lyrical warmth than is desirable in Bartok. I don't. Another criticism I've read is that they occasionally slow down in "slight variance with the scores" (according to Blair Sanderson at All Music), but that's a minor point, as the cycle is exceptional overall, & they offer many insights. For example, I found them especially interesting in the difficult 4th Quartet. (Btw, the Párkányi's Debussy & Ravel SQs are remarkable, and now come coupled with their Bartok 4th--see link below.)

https://www.allmusic.com/album/bartók-string-quartets-nos-5-6-sz-102-114-mw0001556920
https://www.allmusic.com/album/bartók-string-quartets-nos-1-2-mw0001870475
https://www.amazon.com/Bartok-Strin...parkanyi+bartok&qid=1565631036&s=music&sr=1-3
https://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/3844
https://www.amazon.com/Debussy-String-Quartet-Ravel-Bartok/dp/B019GLEEEQ

I also think very highly of the Arcanto Quartet in Nos. 5 & 6, and wish they'd recorded the entire cycle for Harmonia Mundi: 



. The group is comprised of Antje Weithaas & Daniel Sepec on violin, Tabea Zimmermann on viola, and Jean-Guihen Queyras on cello--who are all exceptional musicians: https://www.amazon.com/String-Quart...+quartet+bartok&qid=1565629184&s=music&sr=1-1. Interestingly, like the old Hungarian quartets, such as the Tatrai Quartet, they don't use a lot of vibrato.

As for the Hungarian quartets, I think highly of the following three groups:

--Mikrokosmos Quartet: 




--Hungarian Quartet: 




--Takacs Quartet (especially their 1st cycle on Hungaroton): 




I've not heard the New Budapest Quartet in Bartok, but have heard their Beethoven, and thought they were good & certainly more in tune than the old Budapest Quartet was in Beethoven, whose instruments were so often out of tune (which is a negative for me in Bartok, as it can become torturous). So, I'll have to try to hear to their Bartok.

Today, I listened to the 1963 Juilliard Quartet in Bartok's SQ #4 (on You Tube), and thought they had intonation problems: 



. However, interpretatively, I found their playing very imaginative.

Does anyone like the Novak Quartet's Bartok on Philips, recorded in 1965? Their set arrived in the mail the other day, and I've only listened to the 1st SQ so far, but thought it was beautiful playing: 




Also, has anyone heard and liked the recent Bartok cycle by the Romanian Arcadia Quartet?, who recorded these 6 SQs for their debut on Chandos. I've read strong reviews for this cycle, but I don't know the group: https://www.amazon.com/Bartok-Arcad...+quartet+bartok&qid=1565597101&s=music&sr=1-1. Not that I need another Bartok cycle at this point, but I'm curious what others think of them.


----------



## Mandryka

Josquin13 said:


> For those looking to hear Bartok's 6 String Quartets in sterling sonics, the Párkányi Quartet offers one of the better sets, IMO. Their Praga cycle was recorded on three superb sounding DSD hybrid SACDs. Although I suppose some might find they play with more tonal heft and lyrical warmth than is desirable in Bartok. I don't. Another criticism I've read is that they occasionally slow down in "slight variance with the scores" (according to Blair Sanderson at All Music), but that's a minor point, as the cycle is exceptional overall, & they offer many insights. For example, I found them especially interesting in the difficult 4th Quartet. (Btw, the Párkányi's Debussy & Ravel SQs are remarkable, and now come coupled with their Bartok 4th--see link below.)
> 
> https://www.allmusic.com/album/bartók-string-quartets-nos-5-6-sz-102-114-mw0001556920
> https://www.allmusic.com/album/bartók-string-quartets-nos-1-2-mw0001870475
> https://www.amazon.com/Bartok-Strin...parkanyi+bartok&qid=1565631036&s=music&sr=1-3
> https://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/3844
> https://www.amazon.com/Debussy-String-Quartet-Ravel-Bartok/dp/B019GLEEEQ
> 
> I also think very highly of the Arcanto Quartet in Nos. 5 & 6, and wish they'd recorded the entire cycle for Harmonia Mundi:
> 
> 
> 
> . The group is comprised of Antje Weithaas & Daniel Sepec on violin, Tabea Zimmermann on viola, and Jean-Guihen Queyras on cello--who are all exceptional musicians: https://www.amazon.com/String-Quart...+quartet+bartok&qid=1565629184&s=music&sr=1-1. Interestingly, like the old Hungarian quartets, such as the Tatrai Quartet, they don't use a lot of vibrato.
> 
> As for the Hungarian quartets, I think highly of the following three groups:
> 
> --Mikrokosmos Quartet:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --Hungarian Quartet:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --Takacs Quartet (especially their 1st cycle on Hungaroton):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've not heard the New Budapest Quartet in Bartok, but have heard their Beethoven, and thought they were good & certainly more in tune than the old Budapest Quartet was in Beethoven, whose instruments were so often out of tune (which is a negative for me in Bartok, as it can become torturous). So, I'll have to try to hear to their Bartok.
> 
> Today, I listened to the 1963 Juilliard Quartet in Bartok's SQ #4 (on You Tube), and thought they had intonation problems:
> 
> 
> 
> . However, interpretatively, I found their playing very imaginative.
> 
> Does anyone like the Novak Quartet's Bartok on Philips, recorded in 1965? Their set arrived in the mail the other day, and I've only listened to the 1st SQ so far, but thought it was beautiful playing:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, has anyone heard and liked the recent Bartok cycle by the Romanian Arcadia Quartet?, who recorded these 6 SQs for their debut on Chandos. I've read strong reviews for this cycle, but I don't know the group: https://www.amazon.com/Bartok-Arcad...+quartet+bartok&qid=1565597101&s=music&sr=1-1. Not that I need another Bartok cycle at this point, but I'm curious what others think of them.


I'd better listen to the first Takacs again. It is a very different kettle of fish from the second -- different first violin, different style, different sound.

I had come to the opinion that they were much less incisive, and the sound was more homogeneous, and the approach was less passionate, with the early line up, and that that didn't bode so well in the central quartets (3-5) -- which is really the half-cycle which interests me.

I think the second recording is exceptional in those quartets!



Josquin13 said:


> Today, I listened to the 1963 Juilliard Quartet in Bartok's SQ #4 (on You Tube), and thought they had intonation problems:
> .


I don't know how relevant this is but don't forget that a quartet will make small adjustments to create harmonic effects, what you perceive as an intonation "problem" may in fact be an interpretative choice to move away from equal temperament.


----------



## paulbest

as i say, I've dumped both Takacs and both Tokyo's. 
Hungarian SQ/DG, recorded in the 1960's arrived today,,,excellent, now i have 3 or 4 top notch sets. 
,,= Happy camper.

Ravel premiered his SQ masterpiece in 1908, age 27,
Bartok completed his 1st in 1911, age 30,,,do you note the hints to Ravel's in the opening movement?
Really nice. 
That 1st SQ is a real gem. 
Bartok went on to score 5 more masterpieces in the SQ genre. 
This 1962 release of the Hungarian SQ/DG I grant 10 wonderful stars out of a possible 10.
I am listening to the takacs Hungatron set right now,,its OOP and expensive,,,I may keep a eye open if i see a copy reasonable priced,,,as i have now come around to the performance. maybe a 9 out of 10 stars, maybe more. ,,hard to say. I will take a 5th set.


----------



## Mandryka

The Hungarian Quartet had a later incarnation The New Hungarian Quartet, who recorded all six quartets for Vox in 1976. The original Hungarian Quartet included Zoltan Szekely, who had worked closely with Bartok. I think the earlier one, made for DG in 1961, is more incisive and exciting, probably due to the indirect influence of the composer through Szekely. Both are not unenjoyable interpretations to hear.















When The Takacs Quartet left Hungaroton for DG, they worked with Szekely on Bartok, the result probably goes a good way to explaining the difference between their first and second recordings, and in my opinion is evidence for the idea that the composer intended a spiky and exciting non lyrical approach, rather than a soft sweet lyrical approach, to quite a bit of the music.


----------



## starthrower

Josquin13 said:


> Also, has anyone heard and liked the recent Bartok cycle by the Romanian Arcadia Quartet?, who recorded these 6 SQs for their debut on Chandos. I've read strong reviews for this cycle, but I don't know the group: https://www.amazon.com/Bartok-Arcad...+quartet+bartok&qid=1565597101&s=music&sr=1-1. Not that I need another Bartok cycle at this point, but I'm curious what others think of them.


The recording sounds beautiful! But I haven't listened to any complete performances. The Hagen set sounds great too, but I'm not sure if they play with enough passion?


----------



## Mandryka

I think the Hagen Bartok is absolutely _sui generis_, you should hear it, I think it's riveting but I can't say how you will find it. In a way it is a wonderful example of controlled expressiveness, which is just what I like in music.

In a the post I made above, I said this



Mandryka said:


> When The Takacs Quartet left Hungaroton for DG, they worked with Szekely on Bartok, the result probably goes a good way to explaining the difference between their first and second recordings, and in my opinion is evidence for the idea that the composer intended a spiky and exciting non lyrical approach, rather than a soft sweet lyrical approach, to quite a bit of the music.


Just to add a bit more grist to the anti-lyrical, pro hard edged modernist position which I adopt, the first Juilliard is particularly aggressive in the central quartets. The Juilliard were advised by Eugene Lehner, who was a close associate of Bela Bartok. Eugene Lehner stood to the Juiliard as Zoltán Székely stood to the Hungarian -- except for the little fact that Lehner didn't play for them!

I rest my case.


----------



## flamencosketches

Went ahead and ordered the Keller Quartet cycle. Needed at least one representative from the Hungarian school to be on the table... and this is my favorite of those I've heard. I'm looking at the old Hungarian SQ on DG as well, but I'll be excited to hear the Keller first. They have a great disc with Ligeti's first two quartets.


----------



## starthrower

I'm up for listening the Hagen, and Keller quartet recordings. And I've got the Belcea set on the way. I've had the same two recordings for a long time and I want to experience other ensembles and their approaches to the music.


----------



## flamencosketches

starthrower said:


> I'm up for listening the Hagen, and Keller quartet recordings. And I've got the Belcea set on the way. I've had the same two recordings for a long time and I want to experience other ensembles and their approaches to the music.


Me, too. Emerson and the 1960s Juilliard. I like both, especially the Emerson, but people are constantly telling me that the Emerson's play these quartets in a wrong-headed way. I don't expect to stop liking that set, but I hope to discover another part of the music I may have been neglecting.


----------



## Mandryka

starthrower said:


> I'm up for listening the Hagen, and Keller quartet recordings. And I've got the Belcea set on the way. I've had the same two recordings for a long time and I want to experience other ensembles and their approaches to the music.


The one we've not much discussed, the one which may well be the most probing of the lot, is the Tatrai.


----------



## starthrower

Did the Hagen's record two cycles? I see releases on DG, and Newton.


----------



## Josquin13

Mandryka writes, in relation to the Juilliard Quartet, "I don't know how relevant this is but don't forget that a quartet will make small adjustments to create harmonic effects, what you perceive as an intonation "problem" may in fact be an interpretative choice to move away from equal temperament.

I don't think that applies here, since a quartet has to play as a unified whole (& do they really micro manage and subtly adjust the harmonic relationships in a score like that? especially in Bartok?). Plus, their 1st violinist, Robert Mann, was known to have intonation lapses, especially in his later years. I've heard others more knowledgable than myself speak about it. If memory serves, it's apparent on the Juillard Quartet's live digital Beethoven cycle from the 1980s, which didn't get good reviews at the time: 



. Nor do I suspect the lapses were strictly due to Mann's violin playing, but I may be mistaken about that.

I remember asking a composer friend about the Juilliard Quartet in the 1980s, and he said flatly that they didn't play in tune. Nor do I think he meant just Mann, as he would have likely singled him out. I don't expect that my friend was wrong about this, either, as he was known to have had a remarkably keen ear, and an incredible amount of knowledge (as he taught many young composers). (Though we were possibly discussing Beethoven SQ cycles at the time, so I suppose he could have been referring exclusively to the Juilliard's recent digital Beethoven cycle, or the general state of the quartet in the 1980s, but I don't think so.) I admit I'm out of my league here, but it doesn't sound like they're always in tune at the beginning of the Bartok 4th. Granted, their intonation lapses aren't as jarringly obvious as say the Lindsay Quartet's, so it's hard for me to say with absolute certainty.

As for a comparison between the two Takacs cycles, I've never actually sat down and closely compared them. I was simply going by what my impression has been in the past (which isn't always reliable, if enough time has passed, as is the case here). In light of your points, I'll have to go back and listen more closely to the Takacs' "spiky & exciting non-lyrical" approach on their Decca cycle, especially since you say they worked with Szekely on Bartok after their 1st Hungaroton cycle, which I didn't know. The differences between the two cycles may be more interesting than I had realized. Out of curiosity, I'll also try to listen to the Hungarian Quartet's DG set again. Thanks for your thoughts, Mandryka.


----------



## brahms4

starthrower said:


> Did the Hagen's record two cycles? I see releases on DG, and Newton.


No,there is only one cycle.Newton is like the Eloquence Label,it deals with reissues from other labels-DG,Philips...


----------



## wkasimer

starthrower said:


> Did the Hagen's record two cycles? I see releases on DG, and Newton.


Same recording. Newton reissues out-of-print Universal recordings.


----------



## starthrower

Looks like both are out of print at this point.


----------



## ECraigR

Thankfully there are the glories of Spotify.


----------



## starthrower

ECraigR said:


> Thankfully there are the glories of Spotify.


And YouTube! Does anybody listen to these works through headphones? I find that they sound less harsh, and you can really focus on the details of each player's parts as well as the collective whole in the stereo spectrum.


----------



## flamencosketches

starthrower said:


> And YouTube! Does anybody listen to these works through headphones? I find that they sound less harsh, and you can really focus on the details of each player's parts as well as the collective whole in the stereo spectrum.


Always, all works on headphones  Probably not the best habit to have gotten into as now, speakers don't cut it for me if I want to listen critically. But headphones are awesome.


----------



## Larkenfield

Excellent comments on the Bartok Quartets:






I like the Euclid SQ very much, from what I've heard of them, and enjoy the energy behind their playing that has a certain refinement rather than harshness. They seem to fully understand the wide range of Bartok's emotional expression and can express it. I love hearing these Bartok Quartets through audiophile headphones. It's equivalent to me to hearing every detail through $5000 to $10,000 speakers. It's a matter of investing in the right ones that can be used for hours without listener fatigue. Everything is revealed and the volume can be adjusted perfectly without disturbing others. I believe the quality of Bartok's Quartets are just out of this world, partly because you can see so much of his personal development in them and lead to a greater understanding of his other works. He has his influences but his own voice and individuality is so recognizable and strong.


----------



## starthrower

I should have bought a good pair before the last high end audio store in town closed up. Now there's only garbage at the mass retail stores like Best Buy. I have a 40 dollar pair of Radio Shack phones that sound okay but they hurt my ears after 30 minutes or so.


----------



## paulbest

Well now that i finally discovered at least 3 maybe 4, not sure whats in my collection, but surely i have 3 keeepers,,bartok wrote some UNREAL SQ's. 
Previously with other records,,i had issues with his SQ's. 
Now with the correct performances, i can now see how great these SQ's really are in their essence.
I wouid say of all SQ's in the CM, Bartok's are the most sensitive to performance quality. ,,,well maybe extend this quality issue to Schoenberg, Elliott Carter, Schnittke. 
With these 4 composers, I must have something which reflects the essence of the music.


----------



## flamencosketches

starthrower said:


> I should have bought a good pair before the last high end audio store in town closed up. Now there's only garbage at the mass retail stores like Best Buy. I have a 40 dollar pair of Radio Shack phones that sound okay but they hurt my ears after 30 minutes or so.


I just have the Sennheiser HD280 Pro's. Not bad for $100.


----------



## starthrower

flamencosketches said:


> I just have the Sennheiser HD280 Pro's. Not bad for $100.


As long as they're light and comfortable. Since I'm not a tenured professor or corporate vice president, a hundred bucks is within my budget.


----------



## flamencosketches

starthrower said:


> As long as they're light and comfortable. Since I'm not a tenured professor or corporate vice president, a hundred bucks is within my budget.


I'd highly recommend them then. There's a pair of Audio Technicas in the same price range that look nice too, but I haven't spent near as much time with them, couple friends of mine have the same pair. ATH-M30x, I believe. I've also heard good things about the Grado SR80e headphones too, same price, and specifically in the context of classical music. But I have never tried them.

Anyway, I'm far from an audiophile and someone else can probably provide more specific and better advice. I just know good sound when I hear it, and I really love those Sennheisers.


----------



## starthrower

I have a feeling that as I get older or if I move across the country, I may be listening to music with an android phone and a pair of headphones like all the kids today. Everything is already available on streaming networks.


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

flamencosketches said:


> I'd highly recommend them then. There's a pair of Audio Technicas in the same price range that look nice too, but I haven't spent near as much time with them, couple friends of mine have the same pair. ATH-M30x, I believe. I've also heard good things about the Grado SR80e headphones too, same price, and specifically in the context of classical music. But I have never tried them.
> 
> Anyway, I'm far from an audiophile and someone else can probably provide more specific and better advice. I just know good sound when I hear it, and I really love those Sennheisers.


I have those Grado phones. Bought a like new pair for $50. But new the are $99. I got a pair of the G earpads and they are now the most comfortable headphones I have ever had. Great sound. But know what you are getting. They are open backed headphones and the sound is different than that of my sennheiser headphones.


----------



## Merl

flamencosketches said:


> I'd highly recommend them then. There's a pair of Audio Technicas in the same price range that look nice too, but I haven't spent near as much time with them, couple friends of mine have the same pair. ATH-M30x, I believe. I've also heard good things about the Grado SR80e headphones too, same price, and specifically in the context of classical music. But I have never tried them.
> 
> Anyway, I'm far from an audiophile and someone else can probably provide more specific and better advice. I just know good sound when I hear it, and I really love those Sennheisers.


Sennheiser have always made class headphones (and now earbuds). For earbuds the Klipsch R6i IIs are terrific for under £100, Starthrower. I use a pair of AKG Y50s for infrequent headphone listening from my amp and a cheap pair of £30 Betrons on my phone / tablet / laptop. Most of my listening is through speakers (spare room or in the car).


----------



## Guest

Merl said:


> Sennheiser have always made class headphones (and now earbuds). For earbuds the Klipsch R6i IIs are terrific for under £100, Starthrower. I use a pair of AKG Y50s for infrequent headphone listening from my amp and a cheap pair of £30 Betrons on my phone / tablet / laptop. Most of my listening is through speakers (spare room or in the car).


I have had bad luck with Sennheiser build quality (had one defective out of the box that they refused to acknowledge was defective, another that failed after a few years). I now listen mostly on Beyerdynamic T1's. I also have Denon AHD2000's and AKG 701's which I sometimes use.


----------



## jegreenwood

My favorite budget phones (IEMs actually) are HiFiMan RE-400s - now less than $40 at Amazon.

Here's a review that I concur with:

"If you love bass heavy thumping music, then don't bother with these buds. These buds are not for you. The bass is underwhelming. If you don't take care of your stuff, then these buds are not for you. The buds do not feel like they'll take much abuse. If you want to impress your friends with the glamour materials and a sweet logo, then these buds are not for you. They look simple to the point of boring. If you want to hear new detail of analog recorded music that you've listened to for decades, don't mistreat you stuff, and your self-worth doesn't depend on impressing flakes who do not care about you anyway, then these are a great buy for the price. For $20 bucks more than what I get from Target, I can hear the sound booth acoustics change around different instruments on the same song. Depth and detail are great. Worth the extra twenty bucks. No question."

Note - the broken cables are a real issue. Even with careful use these things will break. But I got more than 4 years out of my first pair. The models without the mic seem somewhat better constructed. And you may want to spring for the Comply tips.


----------



## newyorkconversation

the Takacs will be performing all 6 Bartok quartets this fall in New York: https://www.92y.org/event/takacs-quartet


----------



## millionrainbows

I'm still a speaker advocate. I use headphones when recording to pan things in the stereo field, but that's all.

I suspect that people use headphones because it makes the deficiencies of MP3s and low-rez files disappear.


----------



## jegreenwood

millionrainbows said:


> I'm still a speaker advocate. I use headphones when recording to pan things in the stereo field, but that's all.
> 
> I suspect that people use headphones because it makes the deficiencies of MP3s and low-rez files disappear.


I love listening to chamber music and solo piano (CD quality or better) through quality headphones (Oppo/Focal/Sony noise-cancelling when circumstances call for it).

I also listen to lossy recordings on my iDevices.


----------



## wkasimer

newyorkconversation said:


> the Takacs will be performing all 6 Bartok quartets this fall in New York: https://www.92y.org/event/takacs-quartet


They did the same in Boston a couple of years ago. They were terrific, but I have to confess that I found it to be too much Bartok in one evening (three quartets in two concerts).


----------



## TurnaboutVox

wkasimer said:


> They did the same in Boston a couple of years ago. They were terrific, but I have to confess that I found it to be *too much Bartok in one evening* (three quartets in two concerts).


There's no such thing!


----------



## CnC Bartok

Glad to see we're off headphones now!!!! :lol:

There is indeed no such thing as too much Bartók.


----------



## jegreenwood

wkasimer said:


> They did the same in Boston a couple of years ago. They were terrific, but I have to confess that I found it to be too much Bartok in one evening (three quartets in two concerts).


I saw the Orion Quartet play the set in the same manner. One of the most intense concert-going experiences I've ever had. And the audience as a whole seemed as rapt as I was.


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

This one is available as Amazon download for a reasonable price.







https://www.amazon.com/Bart%C3%B3k-Complete-Quartets-Remastered-Concert-Disc/dp/B075X4PX9Y

I did a look up and these are late 50's recordings remastered. I have been listening through the Amazon music app and do not hear sound issues. Not digital recordings, no. But the warm, analog stereo sound of that period. It's like listening to an LP without the pops and cracks. Reviews you can find on these reissues are favorable. What I have heard so far I like. A different take from my other recordings of Emerson and Ramor.

My impressions are clean and clear presentation. Not fussy or over interpreted. Not middle of the road by any means. You hear all of Bartok's intentions distinctly. In my mind it is a very Pierre Boulez approach, if that makes sense to anyone but me.

Will I purchase? Not sure yet.


----------



## wkasimer

Oldhoosierdude said:


> This one is available as Amazon download for a reasonable price.
> View attachment 127679
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Bart%C3%B3k-Complete-Quartets-Remastered-Concert-Disc/dp/B075X4PX9Y
> 
> I did a look up and these are late 50's recordings remastered.


I imagine that these are the same recordings in physical form:


----------



## philoctetes

I must confess I passed up the Takacs all-Bartok program in Berkeley last week. Bad timing, too far, and high prices, even after discounts. With nothing else on the horizon I'm a little mad at myself.


----------



## Bluecrab

jegreenwood said:


> I saw the Orion Quartet play the set in the same manner. One of the most intense concert-going experiences I've ever had. And the audience as a whole seemed as rapt as I was.


My wife and I saw the Shanghai Quartet play all six quartets in one day back in 2012. 1, 3, and 5 at 4:30; a lengthy intermission; then 2, 4, and 6 at 8:00. It was fantastic. I never tire of these remarkable works. I can only imagine that the musicians must have been physically and mentally spent at the end of that evening.


----------



## tdc

These threads on Bartok's quartets have reminded me I've neglected these outstanding works lately. I'm listening to the 3rd SQ right now.

I have the cycle by the Belcea Quartet. I find the performances excellent. Thus far I haven't felt the need to supplement my collection with any other recordings.


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

Oldhoosierdude said:


> This one is available as Amazon download for a reasonable price.
> View attachment 127679
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Bart%C3%B3k-Complete-Quartets-Remastered-Concert-Disc/dp/B075X4PX9Y
> 
> I did a look up and these are late 50's recordings remastered. I have been listening through the Amazon music app and do not hear sound issues. Not digital recordings, no. But the warm, analog stereo sound of that period. It's like listening to an LP without the pops and cracks. Reviews you can find on these reissues are favorable. What I have heard so far I like. A different take from my other recordings of Emerson and Ramor.
> 
> My impressions are clean and clear presentation. Not fussy or over interpreted. Not middle of the road by any means. You hear all of Bartok's intentions distinctly. In my mind it is a very Pierre Boulez approach, if that makes sense to anyone but me.
> 
> Will I purchase? Not sure yet.


Many months later and Amazon has pulled this listing for prime members. They do this frequently, I am guessing to get you to purchase. And it worked with me. I went ahead and added it to my permanent collection.


----------



## Mandryka

I just post here to say that I’m exploring Wolfgang Rihm’s quartets at the moment and I think anyone who appreciates the Bartok cycle would appreciate the Rihm just as much if not more, the earlier Rihm quartets were, I think, informed by the Bartok. I’m close to saying the Rihm is one of the very “greatest” post war string quartet cycles.


----------



## millionrainbows

At last, SONY releases this formerly French import-only set, recorded in 1963 in glorious analog sound. With a slipcover, you might miss it...

The slipcover:















The 2-CD inside

To confuse things even further, the Juilliard released a version from the 1950s, and a later one recorded in 1981:


----------



## ORigel

Yup, that movement reminds me of Beethoven.

I have the Emerson recordings. I have some trouble appreciating #6. I most get #4, #3, and #1.


----------



## Mandryka

ORigel said:


> Yup, that movement reminds me of Beethoven.
> 
> I have the Emerson recordings. I have some trouble appreciating #6. I most get #4, #3, and #1.


6 is maybe not his best work; I haven't heard 1 and 2, or if I have, I've forgotten. I like 3, 4 and 5. And I can't remember if I've ever heard Emerson Quartet play them.


----------



## ORigel

Mandryka said:


> 6 is maybe not his best work; I haven't heard 1 and 2, or if I have, I've forgotten. I like 3, 4 and 5. And I can't remember if I've ever heard Emerson Quartet play them.


I think the Emerson Quartet's recording is too pretty; Bartok ought to be played harsher.


----------



## Enthusiast

^ I wonder. I am reminded of the anecdote telling a student who was playing his music rather aggressively that perhaps s/he should try being "less Bartokian". Harsh Bartok doesn't sound so nice especially in a composer noted for the beauty of much of his music. Yes, he can be percussive but performers neglect the beauty at a high cost. I cannot remember the Ermerson's quartet 6 and it may be correct that _*it *_is too pretty.


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

ORigel said:


> I think the Emerson Quartet's recording is too pretty; Bartok ought to be played harsher.


Many groups do present these works hard edged and harsh. I would wonder if Bartok's intentions are known.


----------



## Mandryka

I would be surprised to learn that Robert Mann did not know Bartok; Similarly for at least some of the members of the New Music Quartet. It might be a good idea to listen to the New Music Quartet playing the 3rd, and to the earlier Julliard Quartet recordings, to get a feeling for some aspects of composer intentions.


----------



## Enthusiast

There are, of course, recordings of Bartok playing his music - not the quartets (he was a pianist) - so we can get some idea of how he approached his music.


----------



## Mandryka

Well I'd say that Bartok's recording of his _Allegro barbaro_ is brutal and exciting.


----------



## Enthusiast

..... and .....


----------



## Mandryka

Enthusiast said:


> ..... and .....


Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen.


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

A search tells me this one has not been mentioned. I found this set when looking for recordings of Kodaly string quartets. Reviews are good for the Bartok. The download is reasonably priced for both sets of quartets. Anyone have an opinion?


----------



## jegreenwood

Enthusiast said:


> There are, of course, recordings of Bartok playing his music - not the quartets (he was a pianist) - so we can get some idea of how he approached his music.


I have his recording of Contrasts with Szigeti on violin and Benny Goodman (who commissioned it) on clarinet.


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

I have access to most of the prominently mentioned recordings through Amazon Prime and Hoopla. Listened to all or significant parts of many. My conclusion is that there are a ton of great recordings of this work.


----------



## millionrainbows

Bartok seems to be exploring certain specific territory in each one.

No. 1: The most accessible, since Bartok is exploring traditional notions of pitch, harmony, and tonality. This is about 'the language of music.

No. 2: This one seems to be exploring non-tonal areas of harmony, similar to Schoenberg.

No. 3: Here he seems to be exploring 'blocks' of sound rather than any harmonic logic. More effects, pizz, and other 'noise' elements.

No. 4: Further out into left field. Not using harmony, but using pitch as 'stuff.'

No. 5: Rhythmically driven, and chromatic. Bartok seems to have finally made a way to create "chromatic harmony" without using an all-inclusive hierarchy. Here he has broken-down the octave into smaller recursive intervals.

No. 6: More chromatic, and seems to be more experimental than No. 5. I can't detect his harmonic logic, or what it's based on, by ear. Somewhat of a mystery.


----------



## HenryPenfold

Oldhoosierdude said:


> A search tells me this one has not been mentioned. I found this set when looking for recordings of Kodaly string quartets. Reviews are good for the Bartok. The download is reasonably priced for both sets of quartets. Anyone have an opinion?
> 
> View attachment 137543


I bought this on a download a few years ago and it is one of my favourite recordings amongst over 20 sets. It's a very modern detailed digital recording, but captures all the warmth of the music, perhaps not least because of the judicious use of vibrato, and the engineers achieving a tangible spacing between the instruments, creating a perceptibly natural soundstage.

I'm not sure why this set has not attracted more attention .......


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

HenryPenfold said:


> I bought this on a download a few years ago and it is one of my favourite recordings amongst over 20 sets. It's a very modern detailed digital recording, but captures all the warmth of the music, perhaps not least because of the judicious use of vibrato, and the engineers achieving a tangible spacing between the instruments, creating a perceptibly natural soundstage.
> 
> I'm not sure why this set has not attracted more attention .......


I plead ignorance. I see vibrato mentioned from time to time and am not sure what it means.


----------



## Mandryka

HenryPenfold said:


> I bought this on a download a few years ago and it is one of my favourite recordings amongst over 20 sets. It's a very modern detailed digital recording, but captures all the warmth of the music, perhaps not least because of the judicious use of vibrato, and the engineers achieving a tangible spacing between the instruments, creating a perceptibly natural soundstage.
> 
> I'm not sure why this set has not attracted more attention .......











It's a long time ago since I did it, but I remember exploring recordings of Quartet 6 and being particularly impressed by the one on the CD above, more so than in the one in the complete quartets box. I may not feel the same way now.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

Enthusiast said:


> ^ I wonder. I am reminded of the anecdote telling a student who was playing his music rather aggressively that perhaps s/he should try being "less Bartokian". Harsh Bartok doesn't sound so nice especially in a composer noted for the beauty of much of his music. Yes, he can be percussive but performers neglect the beauty at a high cost. I cannot remember the Ermerson's quartet 6 and it may be correct that _*it *_is too pretty.


I'm not a fan of harsh Bartok either, I think even the thorniest of his quartets have golden moments of lyricism in them that any good ensemble should bring out. It definitely takes a lot of technical finesse and interpretive skill to play these well, and the best I've heard so far is the Hungarian on DG, but I'm a big fan of this music and I can see myself getting into comparing a lot of recordings. Interesting you say that about the Emersons; I've not heard their Bartok as far as I can recall but my impression of them in most repertoire is that they are very strong, harsh, overly accented, with very jarring contrasts like they're trying too hard to make the music flow. It comes off sounding like the complete opposite of that. But I'll have to give them a shot.


----------



## CnC Bartok

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I'm not a fan of harsh Bartok either, I think even the thorniest of his quartets have golden moments of lyricism in them that any good ensemble should bring out. It definitely takes a lot of technical finesse and interpretive skill to play these well, and the best I've heard so far is the Hungarian on DG, but I'm a big fan of this music and I can see myself getting into comparing a lot of recordings. Interesting you say that about the Emersons; I've not heard their Bartok as far as I can recall but my impression of them in most repertoire is that they are very strong, harsh, overly accented, with very jarring contrasts like they're trying too hard to make the music flow. It comes off sounding like the complete opposite of that. But I'll have to give them a shot.


There's good "harsh" Bartók, and there's good "smooth" Bartók. It's when it gets too removed from the echt rhythms of the folk music which influenced the Quartets that they become less convincing. For me, the Emersons are robotically aggressive, no real hint of subtlety. For me the legendary Hungarian Quartet are a bit too smooth, whereas the Ramors or the Tatrai still emphasise the rhythm to the right level. For ke the orefect bapance comes from the Mikrokosmos chaps, or the older Takacs.

In daftly simplistic terms, if you cant imagine someone dancing to it (without getting a hernia or drawing a knife) it isn't working....

Just my ha'penny's worth...:tiphat:


----------



## En Passant

HenryPenfold said:


> I bought this on a download a few years ago and it is one of my favourite recordings amongst over 20 sets. It's a very modern detailed digital recording, but captures all the warmth of the music, perhaps not least because of the judicious use of vibrato, and the engineers achieving a tangible spacing between the instruments, creating a perceptibly natural soundstage.
> 
> I'm not sure why this set has not attracted more attention .......


I agree you describe the recording perfectly. I bought this in a small shop in Stirling, Scotland years ago. A pleasant surprise and a bargain.


----------



## Enthusiast

CnC Bartok said:


> There's good "harsh" Bartók, and there's good "smooth" Bartók. It's when it gets too removed from the echt rhythms of the folk music which influenced the Quartets that they become less convincing. For me, the Emersons are robotically aggressive, no real hint of subtlety. For me the legendary Hungarian Quartet are a bit too smooth, whereas the Ramors or the Tatrai still emphasise the rhythm to the right level. For ke the orefect bapance comes from the Mikrokosmos chaps, or the older Takacs.
> 
> In daftly simplistic terms, if you cant imagine someone dancing to it (without getting a hernia or drawing a knife) it isn't working....
> 
> Just my ha'penny's worth...:tiphat:


Good post. The Tatrai are currently my go to set but, of course, I like to hear a variety of viewpoints - just so long as they are good - and do enjoy the spectacular and musical playing of the Emersons in this repertoire.


----------



## Enthusiast

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I'm not a fan of harsh Bartok either, I think even the thorniest of his quartets have golden moments of lyricism in them that any good ensemble should bring out. It definitely takes a lot of technical finesse and interpretive skill to play these well, and the best I've heard so far is the Hungarian on DG, but I'm a big fan of this music and I can see myself getting into comparing a lot of recordings. Interesting you say that about the Emersons; I've not heard their Bartok as far as I can recall but my impression of them in most repertoire is that they are very strong, harsh, overly accented, with very jarring contrasts like they're trying too hard to make the music flow. It comes off sounding like the complete opposite of that. But I'll have to give them a shot.


I guess I have half answered you in my post above. I have also had reservations about the Emersons in some of their recordings. I don't very much like their Beethoven set, for example. But they cannot really be pinned down so easily - their Grieg and Sibelius disc, for example, is lovely.


----------



## CnC Bartok

Enthusiast said:


> Good post. The Tatrai are currently my go to set but, of course, I like to hear a variety of viewpoints - just so long as they are good - and do enjoy the spectacular and musical playing of the Emersons in this repertoire.


If you like the Tatrai, do try and hear the Mikrokosmos. Strange that my three favourite sets are all on Hungaroton, I wouldn't be that narrow-minded with the piano music nor the orchestral music either! Songs, yeah ok, but not much competition!


----------



## Merl

And the weekly quartet in this week's thread is Bartok 4. I have a lot of listening and reviewing to do. Lol

https://www.talkclassical.com/64793-weekly-quartet-just-music-70.html#post1896991


----------



## CnC Bartok

Just as a heads up, Supraphonline have just re-released the first two Quartets, as recorded by the Talich Quartet back in the early 1980s. FLAC and or mp3. I could only ever get hold of these two pieces, and had them on a super-scratchy LP pressing.

These are superb, hoping they will get the remaining four out soon!


----------



## Mandryka

CnC Bartok said:


> Just as a heads up, Supraphonline have just re-released the first two Quartets, as recorded by the Talich Quartet back in the early 1980s. FLAC and or mp3. I could only ever get hold of these two pieces, and had them on a super-scratchy LP pressing.
> 
> These are superb, hoping they will get the remaining four out soon!


Are these different from the ones on Collins Classics?


----------



## CnC Bartok

They are indeed. They recorded all six for Supraphon, 1981 to 83, and I think 1&2 were the last to be recorded?

They only did four Quartets for Collins (no 3 nor 4), and these were early 90s, I'm pretty certain. Again, I may be wrong, but the personnel between the two cycles didn't change.


----------



## NeilP

Listened to them all now, fav is no.5, defiantly not what I’m used to. I suppose you either love them or hate them. I’m no musician therefore that could be why I’m struggling to understand what is going on with these quartets. I could best describe them as the “prog rock of string quartets” -and I’m rather fond of prog rock.


----------



## CnC Bartok

Enthusiast said:


> Good post. The Tatrai are currently my go to set but, of course, I like to hear a variety of viewpoints - just so long as they are good - and do enjoy the spectacular and musical playing of the Emersons in this repertoire.


Just as a FYI, there are actually TWO cycles by the Tatrai Quartet, a long-lost mono set from the late 50s, also on Hungaroton, and available as a download on their online shop. I think I am feeling obliged to check these older performances out forthwith....


----------



## Enthusiast

^ Do report back on those.


----------



## Mandryka

CnC Bartok said:


> Just as a FYI, there are actually TWO cycles by the Tatrai Quartet, a long-lost mono set from the late 50s, also on Hungaroton, and available as a download on their online shop. I think I am feeling obliged to check these older performances out forthwith....
> 
> View attachment 143092


Now could you please get to work and find the Tatrai's op 131 -- as far as I know only on LP and when the LPs come up on ebay, they go for serious money.


----------



## CnC Bartok

Mandryka said:


> Now could you please get to work and find the Tatrai's op 131 -- as far as I know only on LP and when the LPs come up on ebay, they go for serious money.


Yeesir, roight away, sir! (doffs cap) 

There's a 1953 recording on either DGG or on the defunct Telefunken label. Sadly, you are absolutely right and it seems never to have made it off of vinyl.


----------



## CnC Bartok

Reporting back on the 1958 Tatrai set, as a download from Hungaroton.









The good news is they are fabulous. No, not a first choice, as I hear a lot of attention to detail (if you can, listen to the weird middle movement of the 5th quartet, with every twang snap, glissando under the sun - really in-your-face!), but some movements can seem a bit episodic, certainly there's more flow in some of the later set. Not "smooth" Bartók, but they do have that dance element about right, and they seem to be revelling in the spirit of the music, and yes, there's some fun being had (see what I mean in post 196 above?) They are in many ways the antithesis of the DGG Hungarian set from about the same time.

Incidentally, the recording is mono, but there is plenty of clarity and detail, background noise isn't an issue. Cost me about 6,000 forints, £16-ish)

And the bad news? They have been removed from the site now, because I pointed out that there is a whole movement inadvertently missing. There is no first movement of the 4th quartet, the finale is repeated twice (or is this a means of emphasising the palindromic qualities of that work? ). Very very apologetic, Hungaroton reimbursed me in full, and will look into the missing movement, and correct the error (I pray they can, these are recordings well worth hearing)


----------



## SanAntone

CnC Bartok said:


> Reporting back on the 1958 Tatrai set, as a download from Hungaroton.
> 
> And the bad news? They have been removed from the site now, because I pointed out that there is a whole movement inadvertently missing. There is no first movement of the 4th quartet, the finale is repeated twice (or is this a means of emphasising the palindromic qualities of that work? ). Very very apologetic, Hungaroton reimbursed me in full, and will look into the missing movement, and correct the error (I pray they can, these are recordings well worth hearing)


This set is on Spotify without any missing movements.


----------



## newyorkconversation

Saw the Takács play the Bartók cycle over two nights in NYC last year. I would certainly recommend them to the Bartók lover.


----------



## CnC Bartok

SanAntone said:


> This set is on Spotify without any missing movements.


As far as I can see, only the later set, from 67-ish, is there. No 1958 set, and the Masters Collection compilation includes the later recordings too. My original downloads were incorrectly labelled, so movement 1 was 2, 2 was 3, 3 was 4, 4 was 5 and 5 was 5 (!)

If you've got a link to the right album/songs (sic!) on Spotify.....?


----------



## SanAntone

This is the one I found on Spotify - I thought it was the '58 recording but if you say it's a later one, then I was wrong.

View attachment 145202


Sorry for the confusion.


----------



## CnC Bartok

newyorkconversation said:


> Saw the Takács play the Bartók cycle over two nights in NYC last year. I would certainly recommend them to the Bartók lover.


Couldn't agree more! Their Decca set is one of the best out there.

That said, they did a cycle back in the early 80s on Hungaroton, very different line-up in the quartet personnel though. I find those are even better, more authentically "Hungarian", even if the sound has that typical early-digital harshness that some find unappealing.


----------



## CnC Bartok

SanAntone said:


> This is the one I found on Spotify - I thought it was the '58 recording but if you say it's a later one, then I was wrong.
> 
> View attachment 145202
> 
> 
> Sorry for the confusion.


How dare you get my hopes up!!!! :devil:

The movements are wrong on YouTube too, alas.

If you don't know those later Tatrai readings, do give them a listen, though. They are amongst the very best as far as I am concerned.


----------



## ourskolpa

The Hagen experience is something too.


----------



## John O

Funny
The third was the one that I loved first.


----------



## John O

Influenced by Beethoven - yes . The only borrow I can think of is slow mvt. of third piano concerto from middle mvt. of op 132


----------



## John O

Takacs Quartet.


----------



## John O

I love the Ravel and Bartok 4. But they are ver different . Would you listen to the Rite of Spring and complain it doesn’t sound Mozart?


----------



## Richard di Calatrava

flamencosketches said:


> Anyway, it's about damn time I get a recording of these quartets with a Hungarian ensemble, I only have the Juilliard and Emerson. Love the Emerson, lukewarm about the Juilliard. I believe it's their earliest recording, on Columbia originally.
> 
> I'm looking at this one:
> 
> View attachment 121980
> 
> 
> ... or maybe the Takács on Decca...?
> 
> I'm more than satisfied with the Emerson Quartet cycle of Bartók, but I've heard that there are two ways to play them, the American way and the Hungarian way, and I'm curious to see what people mean.
> 
> Anyone else think that the first two quartets are really good, possibly underrated...?


Hi flamencosketches [great name!],

I know it's getting on for three years since your post but -having recently joined- I hope I can still be of help with my opinion!

I'm actually listening to the Hungarian Quartet set RIGHT NOW as I read and respond to these threads...it's fantastic; completely different to the Emerson (which I also like very much). The Hungarian are earthy, punchy...but very lyrical and eloquent where desirable - also very full-bodied, aided by the excellent sound from DG. Listen to the 5th and 6th Quartets to get my drift for all that I have said.

Re. Takacs, may I politely steer you away from Decca (who render the sound too boomy and artificial for my taste) and back to their 1985 Hungaroton recordings? The sound is a bit raw, but the performances are enthralling (somewhat like the Hungarian...but edgier, more risky). Perhaps I'm biased; it was my first set, bought new [pre-Amazon/eBay!]in the late-80s at full price and on 3 CDs...very expensive! But I listened to the Fourth the other day and was just as impressed as I had been all those years ago!

I think that trying to "slot" each recording into 'American' or 'Hungarian' [e.g. Emerson/Juilliard versus Vegh/Takacs/New Budapest] is too limiting. What about 'Middle-European' for instance, say the Alban Berg or Tokyo Quartets, or maybe Keller [avoid, please!]? The ABs and Tokyo render satisfyingly-full-bodied, in places romantic, interpretations, but with enough "Hungaritas" [is that a word?] to remind us of the provenance (and the Hungarian Quartet is actually not that far away from my description, too). I'm probably not explaining myself too well, so try comparisons of the same chosen passages on YouTube and you will see what I mean.

Quartets 1 & 2: I always enjoy the first two Quartets as a preface to the rest -and don't think they are underrated- whilst acknowledging that they don't have the depth of the other four. Somebody on this thread said that he didn't think they were worth bothering with...but that attitude's just sad...!

Anyway, perhaps my recommendations will be of use. By the way, if you want REAL "Hungaritas" -albeit with some (not many) sonic and technical limitations- you MUST try the much-maligned Vegh 1954 set; I find it sounds as though performed almost live! It's now available very cheaply in a box...with not less than their complete 1950s Beethoven cycle as well!


----------



## Richard di Calatrava

Larkenfield said:


> The Ramor SQ Bartok recordings are available on Amazon, including as an inexpensive download:
> https://www.amazon.com/Bartok-Ramor-Quartet-Béla-Bartók/dp/B004ZPGTJW. They were the first Bartok string quartet performances that I ever liked. Take the astringent and harsh performances by some others and dump them in the ocean, as far as I'm concerned. One can have incisive, clear and modern Bartok, and still play them as music, still play them with the kind of musically they deserve. Bartok was a modern, an uncompromising modern, but unnecessary and inappropriate harshness, not to mention a forbidding astringency, can be a turn-off for some listeners, and I found the Ramors ideal, especially as an introduction to these great string quartets. As mentioned before, the Ramor SQ were Hungarians and loved Bartok.


Note that this set is available from iTunes in the UK, MUCH CHEAPER at (UK)£3.99...that's $5.23 at today's conversion rates [7 March 2022]. I'm just about to buy it to supplement my 8 (or is it 9) other CD recordings - YUM!!


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

I have recordings by Alexander, Emerson, Fine Arts Quartet (1959), and Ramor. Wouldn't consider any of these harsh or edgy. Fine Arts and Ramor are real gems as far as I am concerned.

I have tried all of the prominent recordings out there and these are the ones I settled on. I had a chance recently to pull the trigger on some other recordings at bargain basement prices and didn't see the need.


----------



## CatchARisingStar

I gotta admit - when I first started listening to Bartok's quartets, my toes were curled the whole time. To be fair, at the time, string quartets were not my thing, but if someone did a transcription of one for string orchestra, they'd get my attention. Back then, I even had the audacity to add reverb to the quartets of Beethoven by the Vegh group. ANYTHING to make them palatable. I'm older and more relaxed now, so Bartok's quartets don't seem as screechy.

The set I prefer, incidentally, is by the Quattuor Diotima. It has a nice, wide stereo field, a bit more ambience and reverb than others I've heard (so I'm guessing the microphones weren't as close to them as other recordings), a generally flat and even dynamic balance (transparent compression?), no jagged edges to curl my toes, and the parts where the bow attacks the strings don't jump out as much as in other recordings I've heard.


----------



## GMB

I prefer Shostakovich' and particularly Janacek's SQ but after reading all these recommendations I'll try Bartok's again. Thanks for the encouragement!


----------



## Kreisler jr

I have not heard a large number (about 5). There seem to be basically three approaches or aspects interpretations tend to weigh slightly differently: the "hungarian", the "modernist" and the "impressionist" (I am least happy with this last expression but not sure how to do better, I mean playing them quite beautiful, not stressing extremes). Of course, all good/great readings will usually have all of them but the focus will be different. Of the recordings I know somewhat I'd put the Juilliard (CBS/Sony 1960s) and especially the Hagen (DG, or Newton) in the "modernist" camp, the Hungarian/DG in the "hungarian" (very funny) and the Tokyo/DG in the "impressionist" (or "neutral") camp. The Emerson is mostly modernist but a bit less than the other two mentioned. The Tokyo sometimes seem to lack a bit of "punch" but their nice sound and clarity also might make them more accessible for some listeners.


----------



## bagpipers

The the Bartok quartets ,don't remember whose cycle I have though!


----------



## Enthusiast

I've been enjoying the Ragazze Quartet's recordings a lot recently.


----------



## bagpipers

My cycle is the Novak quartet ,they sound good but don't know much about them


----------



## Merl

bagpipers said:


> My cycle is the Novak quartet ,they sound good but don't know much about them


The Novak quartet have recorded quite a bit of repertoire over the years with varying degrees of success but when they were good they were very enjoyable.

The Czech ensemble was formed in 1946 and was originally called the Haba Quartet but the Communist authorities made them change their name in 1950. They were recording up until the late 70s, often for Eterna, but I'm not sure what happened to them after that. Their recordings sometimes show up on cheapo Euro rereleases. Their original members were :

Antonín Novák (violin)
Dušan Pandula (violin)
Josef Podjukl (viola)
Jaroslav Chovanec (cello)

As far as their Bartok cycle is concerned it was originally released on LP in 1968 then disappeared outta the catalogue for ages until Phillips re-released it on a two-fer cd in the 90s. It was recorded in January (SQs 1-4) and July (SQs 5-6) 1965, somewhere in Germany and wasn't too well recorded, unfortunately sounding a bit thin sometimes and they played with an emphasis on mystery (generally) but some like their rather sparse soundworld for these quartets. They specialised in East European works but had a soft spot for late Schubert too (they recorded a few Schubert quartets that are now massively OOP).


----------



## bagpipers

Merl said:


> The Novak quartet have recorded quite a bit of repertoire over the years with varying degrees of success but when they were good they were very enjoyable.
> 
> The Czech ensemble was formed in 1946 and was originally called the Haba Quartet but the Communist authorities made them change their name in 1950. They were recording up until the late 70s, often for Eterna, but I'm not sure what happened to them after that. Their recordings sometimes show up on cheapo Euro rereleases. Their original members were :
> 
> Antonín Novák (violin)
> Dušan Pandula (violin)
> Josef Podjukl (viola)
> Jaroslav Chovanec (cello)
> 
> As far as their Bartok cycle is concerned it was originally released on LP in 1968 then disappeared outta the catalogue for ages until Phillips re-released it on a two-fer cd in the 90s. It was recorded in January (1-4) and July (5-6) 1965, somewhere in Germany and wasn't too well recorded, unfortunately sounding a bit thin sometimes and they played with an emphasis on mystery (generally) but some like their rather sparse soundworld for these quartets. They specialised in East European works but had a soft spot for late Schubert too (they recorded a few Schubert quartets that are now massively OOP).


I thinking I have the Phillips ,I buy inexpensive music I'm a composer LOL
If I could get the Guarneri on everything I'd love that.I also like the pre-curser to the Guarneri The Budapest but there recording are are today.
I saw the Telegraph in concert recently and boy they were good,got to meet them too.


----------



## CnC Bartok

Thread bump for Jimbo!!


----------

