# Metal Music, New Thread (PLEASE READ OPENING POST)



## Metalheadwholovesclasical

First, no troll posting on how heavy metal sucks or is pop music or whatnot. The only posts I want to see in this thread are about metal and from people who enjoy it, with news on metal, sharing metal tastes, and overall positive metal discussion. No posting on how it sucks and is not music or is related to Pop music please. Thank you. 

To get the thread started, Doom Metal recently has gotten my attention more than other metal genres recently. Ahab, Candlemass, and Mirror of Deception I have been enjoying alot.

Ahab- Below the Sun





Mirror Of Deception-Ghost





Candlemass-Demon's Gate





Also to add, Peste Noire, a black metal band from France has recently released a new album. They have taken a much slower pace on this one, but it is a very good album. Has anyone else heard it yet?


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## Krummhorn

Metalheadwholovesclasical said:


> First, no troll posting on how heavy metal sucks or is pop music or whatnot. The only posts I want to see in this thread are about metal and from people who enjoy it, with news on metal, sharing metal tastes, and overall positive metal discussion. No posting on how it sucks and is not music or is related to Pop music please. Thank you.


Those are fair conditions ... we will try our best to uphold those wishes 

Krummhorn, 
Assistant Administrator


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## Contrapunctus666

> Candlemass-Demon's Gate


This is awesome, EDS is probably my favorite trad doom metal album.

Never heard the rest, gotta check them out.


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## Herzeleide

Krummhorn said:


> Those are fair conditions ... we will try our best to uphold those wishes
> 
> Krummhorn,
> Assistant Administrator


Dear Krummhorn,

Since heavy metal is actually labelled popular music by every music dictionary, what precisely is _fair_ about willful disregard for the truth? (Apropos acquiescence to the purportedly 'fair' conditions of which you speak.)


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## Aramis

You invidious creature, a day with that wretched people unconcern!


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## Krummhorn

I never said that metal music (and all its derivatives) was not popular music. 

What was said is that we support a "positive" discussion about the thread subject in response to the original thread post. We had enough negativity about it in another thread that eventually was closed due to all the infighting between members.


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## Contrapunctus666

> Since heavy metal is actually labelled popular music by every music dictionary


And you blindly trust them. Good job.


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## jhar26

Contrapunctus666 said:


> And you blindly trust them. Good job.


No offence intended, but why is it so important to you that metal isn't labelled under the popular music banner? I mean, who cares?


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## Contrapunctus666

> but why is it so important to you that metal isn't labelled under the popular music banner?


Because it is not.

People who wrote those dictionaries can only get into Iron Maiden (and probably something else that is similar) and they think that because the bands that started metal were popular music that all metal is popular music. They have never learned how to appreciate good metal, but hey, they saw that metal has the sub-genre like black metal that is "easy" to make(I mean, 2-3 riffs per song, c'mon) so metal is popular music just because it is easy to make. Deep down they know that they have never got into good death and black metal and that they fail (although they excel at watching TV)


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## Herzeleide

Krummhorn said:


> What was said is that we support a "positive" discussion about the thread subject in response to the original thread post.


The thread subject contains a falsehood, which I'll continue to point out (whilst ignoring the troll, of course).


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## Contrapunctus666

"I fail to understand metal, therefore it sucks."


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## Air

Oh my goodness, people...


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## Krummhorn

Herzeleide said:


> The thread subject contains a falsehood, which I'll continue to point out (whilst ignoring the troll, of course).


Ok, so you have pointed this out ... and that is your opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

Let's move on ...


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## Metalheadwholovesclasical

Jesus Christ, please stop arguing and let's please have this be a normal metal thread. If you don't like metal, please stay out. 

If this continues, I will ask the Administrators to lock this thread yet again.


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## Metalheadwholovesclasical

Krummhorn said:


> Ok, so you have pointed this out ... and that is your opinion, nothing more, nothing less.
> 
> Let's move on ...


Took the words out of my mouth, lol


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## Metalheadwholovesclasical

jhar26 said:


> No offence intended, but why is it so important to you that metal isn't labelled under the popular music banner? I mean, who cares?


Because there really is just no way The Jonas Brothers is like Cryptopsy or anything like that. It just simply isn't pop music.


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## Mirror Image

No offense to this poster, but I would like to see him come out of this topic for a while and talk to the classical fans. This is, after all, a classical forum. We'd love to see a new face amongst us.


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## Metalheadwholovesclasical

Mirror Image said:


> No offense to this poster, but I would like to see him come out of this topic for a while and talk to the classical fans. This is, after all, a classical forum. We'd love to see a new face amongst us.


I have, I have been mainly on the Orchestral and Classical Music Discussion Forums. This one keeps bringing back my attention because so many replies are happening.


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## sam richards

Metalhead, what do you think of metallica? Their first four albums were thrash metal classics.


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## Herzeleide

Metalheadwholovesclasical said:


> Jesus Christ, please stop arguing and let's please have this be a normal metal thread. If you don't like metal, please stay out.
> 
> If this continues, I will ask the Administrators to lock this thread yet again.


Yes, please do.


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## Herzeleide

Here are some passages from an article that Contrapunctus666 posted on the now locked thread:



> And we all know that a female's **** blood reeks worse than month old road kill. Ever stuck your nose into
> one of those used **** plugs (sorry, tampons is the proper word, silly me)? Well, its sufficient to pay the
> bathroom a visit after a menstruating female has been there to relieve herself of that blood of shame.


Misogyny [tick]



> If I were gay, I would probably not even occupy my mind with these beings and their disgusting behavior,
> just like I don't wish to comment any more on subhumans such as gay human males.


Homophobia [tick]



> Although I hate all parts of humankind, Congoids are somewhat special, maybe because they know they are
> inferior to all the rest and act accordingly.





> Norway has sold this country to the above mentioned invaders and similar
> scum like Pakistanis.


Racism [tick]

http://www.talkclassical.com/47978-post621.html

Do we really want someone posting links to such inflammatory guff as this? Solution: ban the person responsible.


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## sam richards

Herzeleide said:


> Here are some passages from an article that Contrapunctus666 posted on the now locked thread:
> 
> Misogyny [tick]
> 
> Homophobia [tick]
> 
> Racism [tick]
> 
> http://www.talkclassical.com/47978-post621.html
> 
> Do we really want someone posting links to such inflammatory guff as this? Solution: ban the person responsible.


For the first time, I agree with him. BAN Contrapucntus666.

To Herzeleide: We know you are a christian and hate metal, there are other threads on the forum. Please refrain from imposing your negativity here.


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## Contrapunctus666

Herzeleide said:


> Here are some passages from an article that Contrapunctus666 posted on the now locked thread:
> 
> Misogyny [tick]
> 
> Homophobia [tick]
> 
> Racism [tick]
> 
> http://www.talkclassical.com/47978-post621.html
> 
> Do we really want someone posting links to such inflammatory guff as this? Solution: ban the person responsible.


Translation: "I can't understand why Ildjarn says stuff like that, therefore he sucks. I will continue to live in my illusion and support human "rights" and "freedom"".


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## Aramis

Contrapunctus666 said:


> Translation: "I can't understand why Ildjarn says stuff like that, therefore he sucks. I will continue to live in my illusion and support human "rights" and "freedom"".


I do understand. Ildjarn is pathetic guy, a lower form of humanity, which is trying to think and write articles about very important things, things that he is not capable of thinking about, so thanks to him (and you, very similiar creature) we are provided with many funny/tragical stuff to read and laugh/cry about. But your little show starts to be boring, get back when you get more experience which could increase the quality of your jokes.


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## Contrapunctus666

Aramis said:


> I do understand. Ildjarn is pathetic guy, a lower form of humanity, which is trying to think and write articles about very important things, things that he is not capable of thinking about, so thanks to him (and you, very similiar creature) we are provided with many funny/tragical stuff to read and laugh/cry about. But your little show starts to be boring, get back when you get more experience which could increase the quality of your jokes.


Summary: He doesn't think that all people are equal and that consumerism should be allowed, therefore he sucks.

Deep inside you know that you don't understand him and are just trying to sound cool in the company of Bach and Herzeleide. An egoist indeed.

I am still wondering why is his music better composed than Mozart's or Schubert's.


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## jhar26

Metalheadwholovesclasical said:


> Because there really is just no way The Jonas Brothers is like Cryptopsy or anything like that. It just simply isn't pop music.


Well, there is no way that Johann Strauss is like Bela Bartok either, yet both are called classical music.


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## Aramis

Contrapunctus666 said:


> Summary: He doesn't think that all people are equal and that consumerism should be allowed, therefore he sucks.


I don't think that people are equal as well. I would insult myself saying that you are equal to me.



> Deep inside you know that you don't understand him


Good one. Prooving people wrong is not enough for you. You can proove them that they don't really think what they are saying.



> and are just trying to sound cool in the company of Bach and Herzeleide. An egoist indeed.


Not really. They both are totally against metal. I listened to it, and I know that there is something more than this retarded stuff you're talking about. Not high art, just normal, acceptable music.


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## Bach

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_popular_music_genres


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## Mirror Image

Contrapunctus666 said:


> Summary: He doesn't think that all people are equal and that consumerism should be allowed, therefore he sucks.
> 
> Deep inside you know that you don't understand him and are just trying to sound cool in the company of Bach and Herzeleide. An egoist indeed.
> 
> I am still wondering why is his music better composed than Mozart's or Schubert's.


You better cool it with the personal attacks, Contrapunctus. There's nothing remotely _cool_ about the way you're talking to people in this thread.

This forum has rules of conduct. Please be respectful.


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## Contrapunctus666

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...r_music_genres


I have already said that the music classification into high art/popular/folk has been created by the people who never got into the sound of metal so therefore they FAIL.



> I would insult myself saying that you are equal to me.


Of course that I am superior, I can understand that good metal is high art and you can't, therefore I am superior.



> I listened to it


Obviously you listened to crappy metal like Sonata Arctica, new Therion etc.



> Not high art, just normal, acceptable music.


Metal was a revolt against the normal (read:average) music.

Currently reading Varg Vikernes' Vargsmal. Great book so far. It would be funny to see an IQ duel between him and Aramis.


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## Mirror Image

Contrapunctus666 said:


> I have already said that the music classification into high art/popular/folk has been created by the people who never got into the sound of metal so therefore they FAIL.
> 
> Of course that I am superior, I can understand that good metal is high art and you can't, therefore I am superior.
> 
> Obviously you listened to crappy metal like Sonata Arctica, new Therion etc.
> 
> Metal was a revolt against the normal (read:average) music.
> 
> Currently reading Varg Vikernes' Vargsmal. Great book so far. It would be funny to see an IQ duel between him and Aramis.


If feel that strongly about metal, then what in the world are you doing on a classical music forum?

Isn't there a metal forum somewhere that you can go troll around in?


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## Krummhorn

*ENOUGH ALREADY (again)

We will return to the original thread subject, or this thread will be shut down permanently. *


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## Bach

Yes, please.

Or we could just ban anyone who expresses even the vaguest interest in becoming interested in becoming interested in metal. Or we could just stone them.. that's always a viable option.


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## Krummhorn

If members despise this thread, then just leave it alone. This thread IS in the Non-Classical section of the forum. If one does not like metal, then leave this thread alone. There are others who do appreciate this form of music and it is their right here to have a civil discussion about it. 

There are a few areas within the classical genre that I can't stand, but I don't post chastising comments about that type of music or suggest they get "stoned" because I don't like it.  

Back to the thread subject ...


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## Metalheadwholovesclasical

sam richards said:


> Metalhead, what do you think of metallica? Their first four albums were thrash metal classics.


Their original albums were good, but after The Black Album, everything was horrible and went downhill.


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## Metalheadwholovesclasical

Herzeleide said:


> Yes, please do.


Why?

Krummhorn: Tell him to please get off this page. It is ruining our discussions.


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## Metalheadwholovesclasical

Herzeleide said:


> Here are some passages from an article that Contrapunctus666 posted on the now locked thread:
> 
> Misogyny [tick]
> 
> Homophobia [tick]
> 
> Racism [tick]
> 
> http://www.talkclassical.com/47978-post621.html
> 
> Do we really want someone posting links to such inflammatory guff as this? Solution: ban the person responsible.


Hush hush, the adults are trying to speak.


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## Metalheadwholovesclasical

jhar26 said:


> Well, there is no way that Johann Strauss is like Bela Bartok either, yet both are called classical music.


It is more than just sound wise though, but structure wise. Pop and Metal have very different structures. Forms of classical have pretty similar structure.


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## Metalheadwholovesclasical

Bach said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_popular_music_genres


Good job, Wikipedia is always 100% correct isn't it?


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## Metalheadwholovesclasical

Krummhorn said:


> *ENOUGH ALREADY (again)
> 
> We will return to the original thread subject, or this thread will be shut down permanently. *


Thank you sir!

Now, onto discussion.

I have lately also have been getting into the Depressive/Suicidal Black Metal scene. Most I have heard is not too good, but after looking more I have found very good ones. They definately portray the feelings of depression very well at times. Here are some good songs.

Springtime Depression by Forgotten Tomb (nice instrumental piece, very melancholic) 





Ableben by Wehmut (the album cover is incredibly depressing to me, just feels so isolated and cold, brilliant photography work, matches the sound of the music perfectly)





Suicide Forest by Be Persecuted (not too crazy about the intro though)





My Funeral To Come by Beatrik (This song always reminds me of my grandfathers death, so it really gets to me at times)


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## Contrapunctus666

As for Metallica, I will just say that Call of Ktulu and Orion both enter top 10 metal songs ever.

I don't find their other stuff to be very interesing anymore (to me). however First 3 albums are great anyway.

Black, Load and Reload were one of the albums that helped me to get into metal sound, so it is at least one reason why I have some minimum respect towards them. However, they are rock music.

As for DSBM, Mutiilation is great:

Through the Funeral Maelstorm of Evil

Taken from _Remains of a Ruined, Dead, Cursed Soul_


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## nickgray

Serious thread, eh? Oh well... I've ended my metal "journey" 2-3 (or so) years ago, I very rarely listen to it now, and when I do its mostly melodic death or some bands or songs of other metal genres that I've used to listen to way back when. Again, really rarely. I'm also composing (with a speed of a turtle, unfortunately) songs in a heavy-melodeath genre, I'm planning on recording them someday and make an album, about half of it is already composed (with lyrics, only thing that's lacking is proper drum arrangements, but it'll be fixed once I start putting this stuff in a daw using sampled drums), and I'll probably gonna finish the other half in a year or so, since I've really lost interest in this project a long time ago, but it sort of a matter of principle now to finish it, so I think it will be ready. Um... yeah, returning to the metal... It's a really nice genre, imo, based on the quite unique sound of a distorted electrical guitar, more-than-usual attention to the drums and, of course, perfect fifths. With songs based on the verse-chorus-verse pattern - either literally or in a more (sometimes much more) sophisticated way, but still based on that thing. I've started from hard rock, then heavy metal -> power (traditional, not the "excessive use of synth. strings" genre) -> black (true Norw. stuff, sympho pseudo-black) -> doom (death/doom, funeral) -> prog. (although it was mostly prog. rock, but nvm, there was some metal too). I probably got tired of it because I've listened to pretty much all of the significant (original) bands out there in every metal sub-genre - it's really tiresome to search for a good new band that plays something original. Got into abstract hip-hop and IDM afterwards and some other stuff, then classical...

I'm also sort of... curious... about this whole "popular music" thing going on here. Really, does it matter? The way I see it - there's classical music and all the other music (named popular, for some reason, and yeah, I do include jazz there). This is in no way connected to the "pop music" genre. So... why all the noise about this stuff? Really, it's just a... um... distinction between classical and other music, and I see good reason as to why it exists, most of you will agree, probably.


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## Herzeleide

Metalheadwholovesclasical said:


> It is more than just sound wise though, but structure wise. Pop and Metal have very different structures. Forms of classical have pretty similar structure.


Forms of classical have pretty similar structures? How so? You admitted a while back that you have an extremely limited knowledge about music (read: 'theory').



> Yeah I don't really study classical music


http://www.talkclassical.com/39048-post175.html

So please, point out to me the specific similarities between sonatas, rondos, isorhythmic motets, arch-form movements, block-form movements, either between themselves or similar to any metal piece.


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## jhar26

nickgray said:


> I'm also sort of... curious... about this whole "popular music" thing going on here. Really, does it matter? The way I see it - there's classical music and all the other music (named popular, for some reason, and yeah, I do include jazz there). This is in no way connected to the "pop music" genre. So... why all the noise about this stuff? Really, it's just a... um... distinction between classical and other music, and I see good reason as to why it exists, most of you will agree, probably.


That's the way I see it also. It almost seems to me as though some regard the words 'popular music' as an insult which is ridiculous in my opinion.


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## Herzeleide

Krummhorn said:


> *ENOUGH ALREADY (again)
> 
> We will return to the original thread subject, or this thread will be shut down permanently. *


I'm frankly disgusted at your tacit acquiescence to the bigotry displayed by a poster here.

BTW - a bold and different coloured font is not an effective rhetorical device.

From the_ Guidlines & Terms of service_:

'Members may not post any messages that are *obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening*, or otherwise violative of any laws.'

It would appear that you need to revise your own rules, Krummhorn.


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## Metalheadwholovesclasical

Herzeleide said:


> Forms of classical have pretty similar structures? How so? You admitted a while back that you have an extremely limited knowledge about music (read: 'theory').
> 
> http://www.talkclassical.com/39048-post175.html
> 
> So please, point out to me the specific similarities between sonatas, rondos, isorhythmic motets, arch-form movements, block-form movements, either between themselves or similar to any metal piece.


I have started taking a music course at my school. and listening to it more, has helped me learn about it. Also have started taking violin lessons. Don't rely on posts from ages ago  I find it suprising you even went through the trouble to find it.

Back to the DSBM discussion, I never really liked Mutiilation, I don't know why, they are just a little boring to me. Plenty of DSBM listeners would disagree with me though.

I also forgot to add Trist, they are incredibly simple, but have produced some of the most depressive black metal I have heard.


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## jurianbai

enter another metalhead....

I am more into power and melodic metal. most of band posted here are not familiar to me. the last famous thread give me a lot of nice video i never know before so I looking forward for this thread.

my latest installment on metal are :

hammerfall - no sacrifice no victory,new album after stefen elgram era.
impellitteri - wicked maiden, bob rock and impellitteri is back
vision divince - 9 degree west to the moon

and found a nice side project album by nightwish's guitarist 

brother firehood - heart full of fire, this is an aor keyboard orientated album which is veryyyyy goood.


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## Contrapunctus666

I used to be a huge Hammerfall fan. I remember those days - listening to Regenade or Legacy of Kings four times per day. However, they don't hold my interest for more than 5-6 minutes anymore.



> I never really liked Mutiilation, I don't know why, they are just a little boring to me.


It took me two listens to appreciate the album I mentioned, however, I have found a lot of superior black metal. Try to get into Ildjarn instead:

Natt og take


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## sam richards

Children of Bodom anyone?

Basically I love the neoclassical metal and melodic death metal genres.


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## MEDIEVAL MIAMI

I was in a Black/Thrash Technical Death Metal band 3 years ago, but no recordings were made. Lately I've been composing Symphonic Depressive Funeral Black/Drone Doom Metal in the veins of Shape of despair, Forgotten Tomb, Doom VS, Nyktalgia, Nortt, Sun O))), Thy Light, and many others. 

I've been listening to this Shoegaze Post Punk Black Metal movement lately (since 2008), like Heretoir, Liam, Alcest, Amesoeurs, Les Discrets, and many others. 

Do not get confused with Post Rock Metal like Jesu, Russian Circles and Life Lover.

What do you guys think about Symphonic Metal?

Best albums in the genre so far ( according to me)

Deggial - Therion
Dawn of Victory - Rhapsody.


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## MEDIEVAL MIAMI

BTW, Which Mutilation are you guys talking about?

PS: Viking Metal is my favorite metal genre.


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## MEDIEVAL MIAMI

Pop = popular
but it could also mean Teen Contemporary Music.

Not all metal is popular. Popular genres of metal:

Heavy, Power, Thrash, Speed, Celtic, Symphonic Black, Black, Death, Doom (the most popular), NWOBHMM, and Industrial Gothic.


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## MEDIEVAL MIAMI

Avant-garde Metal (Blut Aus Nord)
Post Rock Metal (Jesu, Lifelover)
Shoegazer Metal (Heretoir, Alcest)
Post Punk Metal (Amesoeurs)
Viking Metal (Heidevolk, Thryfing)
Noise Metal ( Hairdrain)
Drone Metal (Sun O:
DSBM
Grindcore?????


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## Bach

MEDIEVAL MIAMI said:


> Symphonic Depressive Funeral Black/Drone Doom Metal in the veins of Shape of despair, Forgotten Tomb, Doom VS, Nyktalgia, Nortt, Sun O))), Thy Light, and many others


Lol. Jks..


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## Aramis

Bach said:


> Lol. Jks..


What are you laughing about? This is the best metal genre together with trve kvlt necro evil hateful black metal out of the frostbitten grim forests of northern darkness, dragon saga mighty warrior princess ring bard ancient epic emocore metal and neoclassical shred mohommad suicmez theory arpeggio death brutal solo guitar grindcore powerful energetic energy thrash heavy hardcore rock technical technique doom metal.


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## MEDIEVAL MIAMI

Don't forget to add thrash to the list.


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## sam richards

bach said:


> Lol. Jks..





Aramis said:


> What are you laughing about? This is the best metal genre together with trve kvlt necro evil hateful black metal out of the frostbitten grim forests of northern darkness, dragon saga mighty warrior princess ring bard ancient epic emocore metal and neoclassical shred mohommad suicmez theory arpeggio death brutal solo guitar grindcore powerful energetic energy thrash heavy hardcore rock technical technique doom metal.


Please don't post on this thread if you have nothing to contribute. We are having a positive discussion here; it's not a free-for-all bash like the previous thread.


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## MEDIEVAL MIAMI

Guys, I wanted to share these bands with you:

Death Aura.
Ambient/Depressive Black Metal from Greece
http://www.myspace.com/auraofdeath

Woods oF Infinity
Gypsy Black Metal from Sweden
http://www.myspace.com/woodsofinfinitybm


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## Metalheadwholovesclasical

I found this depressive black metal band I cannot get enough of. They are called Deep-Pression. Incredibly emotional stuff. Full of pain, and misery. As a person who has clinical depression himself, this music translates the emotions you have when you are depressed incredibly well.

I Walk Life In Depression





Pain is Everywhere


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## MEDIEVAL MIAMI

I never considered them DSBM.


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## Metalheadwholovesclasical

MEDIEVAL MIAMI said:


> I never considered them DSBM.


Yeah, they are DSBM, but they have a lot of Doom influence also, especially in the vocals.


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## MEDIEVAL MIAMI

Seems that most of us metalheads in this site share the same DSBM fetish.


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## Metalheadwholovesclasical

MEDIEVAL MIAMI said:


> Seems that most of us metalheads in this site share the same DSBM fetish.


Most metal fans are not big with the DSBM scene (I am only big with some of it) but yes, alot of metal fans here happen to enjoy it.


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## Herzeleide

Metalheadwholovesclasical said:


> I found this depressive black metal band I cannot get enough of. They are called Deep-Pression. Incredibly emotional stuff. Full of pain, and misery. As a person who has clinical depression himself, this music translates the emotions you have when you are depressed incredibly well.
> 
> I Walk Life In Depression
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pain is Everywhere


Yep, extremely depressing.


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## Herzeleide

Aramis said:


> What are you laughing about, ignorant? This is the best metal genre together with trve kvlt necro evil hateful black metal out of the frostbitten grim forests of northern darkness, dragon saga mighty warrior princess ring bard ancient epic emocore metal and neoclassical shred mohommad suicmez theory arpeggio death brutal solo guitar grindcore powerful energetic energy thrash heavy hardcore rock technical technique doom metal.


This post is genius.


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## Herzeleide

Metalheadwholovesclasical said:


> I Walk Life In Depression


What's the appeal of listening to the same (banal) chord progression over and over again _ad infinitum_? 

I ask out of genuine curiosity...


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## Scum

Depressive black metal is gay... like most black metal in general. Way too much airs and graces.

Good black metal:


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## MEDIEVAL MIAMI

Herzeleide said:


> What's the appeal of listening to the same (banal) chord progression over and over again _ad infinitum_?
> 
> I ask out of genuine curiosity...


That's the depressive suicidal element on it. Actually it comes from what is known to be Black Metal which is a minimalistic kind of music.


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## Herzeleide

MEDIEVAL MIAMI said:


> That's the depressive suicidal element on it. Actually it comes from what is known to be Black Metal which is a minimalistic kind of music.


Ahh yes. The old Chinese Water Torture technique.


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## MEDIEVAL MIAMI

You want good black metal? (Emperor is gayer than any other band mentioned here)

Blut Aus Nord (Avant Garde Black Metal)

















Onryo (Post Punk Black Metal)






Fen (Post Rock - Shogazer Black Meta)






Soliness (Shoegazer Black Metal)






Amesoeurs (Post Punk Black Metal)


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## Scum

...or in other words, dark shoegaze music. Reeeeeeeal sweet.


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## Metalheadwholovesclasical

Herzeleide said:


> What's the appeal of listening to the same (banal) chord progression over and over again _ad infinitum_?
> 
> I ask out of genuine curiosity...


DSBM is minimalistic. The same riff is used over and over again because with depression its just the same feeling over and over, not stopping. Kind of like symbolism in a way. This is one reason why i don't like DSBM, its real repetitive at times, well most of the time. The only way I can truly sit down and listen to a DSBM song is if the riff is incredible and full of emotion, or they add something more to the riff (example [not DSBM] Tubular Bells by Mike Oldfield.)

And to your Chinese Water Torture comment, precisely. Not EXACTLY like it, but it is very similar technique wise. Except it focusses on different parts of the mind, the music is to affect the mood rather than the sanity or whatever CWT affects on in your brain.

I am pretty sure you also know some great classical composers use this technique as well.


----------



## Herzeleide

Metalheadwholovesclasical said:


> DSBM is minimalistic. The same riff is used over and over again because with depression its just the same feeling over and over, not stopping.


With happiness it's just the same feeling of happiness over and over again, not stopping.



Metalheadwholovesclasical said:


> I am pretty sure you also know some great classical composers use this technique as well.


Bearing in mind I dislike minimalist composers, what technique is this that 'some great classical composers' use?


----------



## Metalheadwholovesclasical

Herzeleide said:


> With happiness it's just the same feeling of happiness over and over again, not stopping.
> 
> Bearing in mind I dislike minimalist composers, what technique is this that 'some great classical composers' use?


Repetitive melodies being played throughout the song. Arvo Part's "Cantus In Memorium Benjamin Britten" is much like this technique. I am not too sure what the name of the technique is, I would throw a wild guess and just say "minimalistic structure" but I doubt that is what it is called. Depression is different from happiness. Being in depression myself for my entire life so far, I can say that happiness makes me think about a lot of things, that being funny things, something fun that happened, etc. Depression is incredibly different. Depression is a mental illness more than an emotion. Depression is an imbalance of serotonin in the brain, which causes feelings of melancholia, despair, lonliness, hopelessness, worthlessness, anger, etc. When you are depressed, your mind is like "frozen" on one feeling is the best way I can describe it. You feel like you cannot escape this feeling ( it in reality is hard if it is clinical, unless you get therapy and or medication) That is pretty much what the minimalistic structure is representing.

Here is Cantus.


----------



## Herzeleide

Metalheadwholovesclasical said:


> Repetitive melodies being played throughout the song. Arvo Part's "Cantus In Memorium Benjamin Britten" is much like this technique.
> 
> Here is Cantus.


The technique Paert uses, if I remember correctly is 'Tintinnabulation'. I'm afraid I'm not too keen on the Cantus. An A minor scale repeated over and over again in different rhythms with a faux-Renaissance aesthetic is not appealing.

I could do without the lecture on depression...


----------



## Metalheadwholovesclasical

Herzeleide said:


> The technique Paert uses, if I remember correctly is 'Tintinnabulation'. I'm afraid I'm not too keen on the Cantus. An A minor scale repeated over and over again in different rhythms with a faux-Renaissance aesthetic is not appealing.
> 
> I could do without the lecture on depression...


I am in love with that piece. A good friend showed it to me a few months ago. And sorry if it seemed I was lecturing. It is a more in depth description on why they do it.


----------



## sam richards

Well, I'm afraid to say that DSBM (and minimalism) is not my thing. But I still respect them.
I'm more into thrash metal, death metal, progressive and trad metal.

btw, If you haven't heard of them before; Vegg has introduced me to an awesome progressive black metal band called Ne Obliviscaris. They mix violin and clean vocals with harsh black metal.

I think you all should check them out ; their music sounded very aggressive and beautiful to me. And I'm not much of a black metal fan.

Here a link: Ne Obliviscaris - Tapestry Of The Starless Abstract


----------



## Scum

Metal has never been depressive or suicidal.


----------



## sam richards

^^^
What do think of Ne Obliviscaris?


----------



## MEDIEVAL MIAMI

Scum said:


> Metal has never been depressive or suicidal.


Until the early 90's when Funeral Doom, Gothic Doom, Ambient Black Metal began to emerge.


----------



## sam richards

Any other Opeth fans here?


----------



## MEDIEVAL MIAMI

I never been into Oppy.


----------



## sam richards

^^ Check them out they belend jazz and neoclassical guitar with Death Metal.
Btw, what are your favorite metal artists?


----------



## Conservationist

sam richards said:


> thrash metal


Term has no meaning.

You mean speed metal.

Try real thrash instead:



> More than retro thrash (DRI, COC, SOD) but a rebirth of the genre, this Texas band bash out short songs critical of society with humor and high energy. Let the mockery begin!
> 
> Birth A.D. - Stillbirth of a Nation (2009)


----------



## pyrrho360

I hate to tell you kids that Ildjarn has the depth of Blink 182. 

My problem with metal is that it's totally based off a pattern of perfect fifths and why do you think metal is structured differently from pop music? All the songs you've posted are basic chorus-verse song based.Sorry for breaking your bubbles but every time you start these threads you try to deny everything else with your own ignorance.

Suicide depressive emo metal? 
Someone beating you up at school?


----------



## Conservationist

pyrrho360 said:


> why do you think metal is structured differently from pop music?


Please 2 try:

Incantation - Onward to Golgotha
Immolation - Here in After
Demilich - Nespithe
Burzum - Burzum/Aske
Enslaved - Vikinglgr Veldi

then ask again!


----------



## pyrrho360

Conservationist said:


> Please 2 try:
> 
> Incantation - Onward to Golgotha
> Immolation - Here in After
> Demilich - Nespithe
> Burzum - Burzum/Aske
> Enslaved - Vikinglgr Veldi
> 
> then ask again!


Those bands play in standard song format.

Demilich is more interesting then the others.
Immolation is pretty basic along with burzum and enslaved.


----------



## bdelykleon

I think most metalheads confund musical narrative with song narrative, all metal pieces I ever heard don't have any musical narrative whatsoever, relying in usual or slightly changed verse-chorus forms. All their narrative is in the text.


----------



## sam richards

Although I enjoy Burzum, his music is pretty simple and basic. Really it has no more complexity than Blink 182.

The complex bands are
Meshuggah 
Opeth
Cynic

Most black metal is the deevolution of metal.

Black metal is to metal what Minimalism is to classical.



bdelykleon said:


> I think most metalheads confund musical narrative with song narrative, all metal pieces I ever heard don't have any musical narrative whatsoever, relying in usual or slightly changed verse-chorus forms. All their narrative is in the text.


Mostly true, neoclassical metal and symphonic metal is the exception however.

Btw bdely, listen to it and tell me your opinion. Please listen to it fully atleast 3 times. 
Ne Oblisviscaris - Tapestry of the starless abstract.

The band is Ne Obliviscaris, they fuse Jazz, Flamenco, Classical, Techicnal Death Metal and avant-garde with Black metal. This song has musical narration and is split into three sections
I'll post an analysis afterwards.


----------



## Conservationist

sam richards said:


> Although I enjoy Burzum, his music is pretty simple and basic.


You're confusing individual parts being easy to play with a song composed as a whole.


----------



## Vegg

Hahaha, glad you seem to like Ne Obliviscaris sam. Told you they're good. 

Also, I have to mention that "Traced In Air" by Cynic has quickly become one of my favorite albums of all time.


----------



## sam richards

Vegg said:


> Hahaha, glad you seem to like Ne Obliviscaris sam. Told you they're good.
> 
> Also, I have to mention that "Traced In Air" by Cynic has quickly become one of my favorite albums of all time.


Yeah, I think "The Aurora Veils" is the best demo ever.
Once again, thanks Vegg. 

Check your PM.


----------



## Scum

bdelykleon said:


> I think most metalheads confund musical narrative with song narrative, all metal pieces I ever heard don't have any musical narrative whatsoever, relying in usual or slightly changed verse-chorus forms. All their narrative is in the text.


O rly?






Also, it doesn't matter how "interesting" the music is. It doesn't matter if they blend country, modal jazz, flamenco, blackened thrash metal and gabber techno. What matters in music and in art in general is what you get from it.

What feelings does the piece invoke in you?
Does it make you think?
Does it make you *dream*?

I don't care whether there's quadruple inverted counterpoint. I don't care if it's technical. I don't care if it's innovative or not. It's what I get from it, how it affects me, whether it could change my views on life.

Because that is the main purpose of art.

You may have studied music for years, analyzed the techniques, the structure... But you still have to learn to *feel* music, rather than simply listen to it.


----------



## Vegg

sam richards said:


> Check your PM.


Not getting any PMs for some reason...

Anyway, have you heard Pain of Salvation's new live CD? Daniel's vocal dynamics are insane.


----------



## sam richards

Live CD? Have to check that out.

I'm listening to Obscura by Gorguts, it's awesome. And they are Canadian, so it might easier for you see them live, Vegg.


----------



## Conservationist

sam richards said:


> I'm listening to Obscura by Gorguts, it's awesome.


Now you're talking. Get yourself some Demilich and Atheist and the cycle will be complete.


----------



## sam richards

I already have listened to Atheist and I like them. Never heard of Demilich, are they a technical death metal band too?


----------



## Metalheadwholovesclasical

sam richards said:


> Any other Opeth fans here?


Love Opeth.


----------



## Metalheadwholovesclasical

sam richards said:


> I already have listened to Atheist and I like them. Never heard of Demilich, are they a technical death metal band too?


They are somewhat tech death, I would mainly call them progressive/experimental death though.


----------



## pyrrho360

sam richards said:


> Although I enjoy Burzum, his music is pretty simple and basic. Really it has no more complexity than Blink 182.
> 
> The complex bands are
> Meshuggah
> Opeth
> Cynic


I used to like metal before I wanted to seriously learn how to player an instrument and to learn music theory. Opeth is basic music, barre chords and power chords combined, nothing advance there. Cynic is also a joke,rather listen to real jazz. Listened to Meshuggah and saw the tabs, really boring stuff.


----------



## sam richards

pyrrho360 said:


> Opeth is basic music, barre chords and power chords combined, nothing advance there. Cynic is also a joke,rather listen to real jazz. Listened to Meshuggah and saw the tabs, really boring stuff.


Are you crazy? Opeth does use power chords in their simpler sections, but they do have complex sections with intricate harmonies.

Cynic isn't jazz, it's jazz influenced Death Metal. Their use of intermodulation distortion is revolutionary. The frontman is a professor of music theory and composer too, I highly doubt you know more than him about music.

About Meshuggah: Music scholars disagree, their music is regarded as one of the most rhythmically complex and scholars from Music Theory Spectrum published an analysis of their music.



pyrrho360 said:


> I used to like metal before I wanted to seriously learn how to player an instrument and to learn music theory.


No offense, but I don't think you know much about music theory.


----------



## pyrrho360

sam richards said:


> Are you crazy? Opeth does use power chords in their simpler sections, but they do have complex sections with intricate harmonies.
> 
> Cynic isn't jazz, it's jazz influenced Death Metal. Their use of intermodulation distortion is revolutionary. The frontman is a professor of music theory and composer too, I highly doubt you know more than him about music.
> 
> About Meshuggah: Music scholars disagree, their music is regarded as one of the most rhythmically complex and scholars from Music Theory Spectrum published an analysis of their music.
> 
> No offense, but I don't think you know much about music theory.


Sorry, I'm hearing recycled music from the past 30 years. Prove to me that they're musically complex. Show us examples instead of words that are worthless.


----------



## emiellucifuge

Here is a link to a full article written by the Society for Music Theory.
It comments on the Metric Superimposition they use and intricate timing supporting this with notated evidence (scores)

http://www.scribd.com/doc/6375990/Recasting-Metal-Rhythm-and-Meter-in-the-Music-of-Meshuggah


----------



## nickgray

Vegg said:


> Anyway, have you heard Pain of Salvation's new live CD? Daniel's vocal dynamics are insane.


On the Two Deaths of Pain of Salvation? Yeah, he's really great on that one, imo, probably one of the best vocalists in the world - changing the timbre, emotional aspect, the whole music understanding... I'm really waiting for the new PoS album. As always with them I'm quite sure it'll be very different from the other albums)) personally though, I'd like him to do something like Perfect Element Pt.I + Be.


----------



## Conservationist

pyrrho360 said:


> Opeth is basic music, barre chords and power chords combined, nothing advance there. Cynic is also a joke,rather listen to real jazz. Listened to Meshuggah and saw the tabs, really boring stuff.


I agree.

Metal uses a different type of songwriting than rock.

It's narrative songwriting, based on the phrase shape of the riff, like free jazz but with abstract structure replacing harmony.

It is atonal, but uses modal patterns to express emotions, much like early Greek music.

People like Meshuggah, Opeth and Cynic because they're a lot like rock music, only in recognizably "hey this is jazzy so it must be elite" form. (For more information, see Status in Heavy Metal Music.)

If you want the heart of metal technicality, see Atheist, Gorguts, Immolation, Demilich, Obliveon, etc.

But to my mind, the spirit of metal is what most matters, so just find some of the most powerful black/death ever written. Burzum, Incantation, Asphyx, Deicide, etc. will be good for you.

Trying to make metal into rock or jazz so it can compete with popular music is a dead-end trip. You end up praising Dream Theatre, Cynic and other bands that are well-trained wankery with no significance.

All IMHO and not designed to insult anyone or hurt any feelings.


----------



## Metalheadwholovesclasical

I would also add Spawn of Possession. There is some thick classical influence in their guitar riffs.


----------



## jadelee

So would i. You are absolutely right, Metalheadwholovesclasical!


----------



## emiellucifuge

Which album do you prefer?
Noctambulant, or Cabinet?

Noctambulant for me


----------



## Herzeleide

Scum said:


> You may have studied music for years, analyzed the techniques, the structure... But you still have to learn to *feel* music, rather than simply listen to it.


I've never had to 'learn' how to 'feel' music, and I'm not sure if one _can_ learn this.

Suffice to say, dedication to the study of music for me is motivated by a deep and profound love of it, in every respect. I totally reject the idea that to appreciate the technical aspects of a piece has nothing to do with 'feeling' it; this is simply another appearance of the hoary old 'emotion versus intellect' binary dualism. On the contrary, intellectual apprehension of music -whilst ineluctably limited- nonetheless has increased my love and understanding of it.


----------



## Conservationist

Music is a language, or series of languages. You recognize the vocabulary of one. "Feel" (aesthetics) might help you learn more, depending on what your native intelligence determines you capable of doing.


----------



## Herzeleide

Conservationist said:


> Music is a language, or series of languages.


No, English, French and German are languages. Can you not tell the difference?



Conservationist said:


> You recognize the vocabulary of one.


I recognise the vocabulary of many, hence my love of Indian, Arabic and Indonesian music.



Conservationist said:


> "Feel" (aesthetics) might help you learn more, depending on what your native intelligence determines you capable of doing.


Look up the meaning of 'aesthetics'. By 'feel' I meant the sensuous dimension of musical experience.


----------



## Conservationist

Herzeleide said:


> Look up the meaning of 'aesthetics'. By 'feel' I meant the sensuous dimension of musical experience.


That is aesthetics, at least in the philosophical term. Your sophomore dictionary may have a different definition.

The International Day of Slayer is this Saturday:



> Tomorrow, Saturday June 6, is the International Day of Slayer.
> 
> This is a day to do no work and listen to Slayer, because you're a metalhead and you think the world should recognize metal as a culture.
> 
> Being a culture has its advantages. People understand that your values and your music are important to you. They give you space.
> 
> Even more important is sending a message to the world that this music has a vital spirit that brings people together, even into a culture. We aren't following the path of others, but our own path.
> 
> Where we agree on similar attitudes and values is our culture. The metal culture. And Slayer upholds this ideal, fast and furious and full of horror, like no others.
> 
> So this Saturday, celebrate the International Day of Slayer:
> 
> * Listen to Slayer at full blast in your car.
> * Listen to Slayer at full blast in your home.
> * Listen to Slayer at full blast at your place of employment.
> * Listen to Slayer at full blast in any public place you prefer.
> 
> And pass the word along to other metalheads.
> 
> http://www.nationaldayofslayer.org/


If Muslims, gays, bats, hairdressers, Christians, teachers, postal workers, Scientologists and furries get their own special holidays, I want one for metal.

The older Slayer albums are everything that's right about metal. 90% of death metal and black metal riffs are lifted from early Slayer, Hellhammer and Bathory.


----------



## Herzeleide

Conservationist said:


> That is aesthetics, at least in the philosophical term. Your sophomore dictionary may have a different definition.


From the Britannica Online Encyclopedia:

'Philosophical study of the qualities that make something an object of aesthetic interest and of the nature of aesthetic value and judgment.'


----------



## Mirror Image

Herzeleide said:


> From the Britannica Online Encyclopedia:
> 
> 'Philosophical study of the qualities that make something an object of aesthetic interest and of the nature of aesthetic value and judgment.'


Does Conservationist ever post outside of this thread? Is he/she capable of discussing music other than metal?

I mean this is a classical forum it would nice to see what Conservationist knows.


----------



## Conservationist

Herzeleide said:


> From the Britannica Online Encyclopedia:
> 
> 'Philosophical study of the qualities that make something an object of aesthetic interest and of the nature of aesthetic value and judgment.'


Here, try this instead:

http://www.amerika.org/2009/organization/why-people-hate-the-internet/


----------



## Herzeleide

Mirror Image said:


> Does Conservationist ever post outside of this thread? Is he/she capable of discussing music other than metal?
> 
> I mean this is a classical forum it would nice to see what Conservationist knows.


He knows pretty much nothing about classical music and has little interest in discussing it. Plus he's a Nazi. And yet Krummhorn still tolerates him.


----------



## Herzeleide

Conservationist said:


> Here, try this instead:
> 
> http://www.amerika.org/2009/organization/why-people-hate-the-internet/


I assume you've capitulated to my veracious definition of Romanticism.


----------



## Mirror Image

Herzeleide said:


> He knows pretty much nothing about classical music and has little interest in discussing it. Plus he's a Nazi. And yet Krummhorn still tolerates him.


If he knows nothing about classical music, then I wonder why he is on a classical music forum? I mean that's like me being an electronics salesman and I know nothing about electronics. It just doesn't make sense.


----------



## Clancy

He's here to promote his agenda, which judging from other promoters of ANUS's high school philosophy, is some sort of vague social darwinism/eugenics. They justify this by pointing to pop culture's superficiality. So that's all right then [/sarcasm]. Ironic really, since I suspect that most of these guys are extremely sad (why else so bitter?) and probably wouldn't even meet their own stringent requirements.

I imagine he is also here to try and get a few high-brow converts to metal.


----------



## Conservationist

Clancy said:


> He's here to promote his agenda, which judging from other promoters of ANUS's high school philosophy, is some sort of vague social darwinism/eugenics.


Nah, I'm a mostly classical music listener who also likes some metal.

My views **** off people who cannot understand them, hence your hobbled summary.

You could always try reading them to figure out what they are, but I think most internet people feel better hating something than understanding it.

Luckily, I'm insulated against internet bullying and find it amusing that the more these people contort, the more ANUS grows.


----------



## Clancy

Conservationist said:


> Nah, I'm a mostly classical music listener who also likes some metal.


Sure.


Conservationist said:


> My views **** off people who cannot understand them, hence your hobbled summary.
> 
> You could always try reading them to figure out what they are, but I think most internet people feel better hating something than understanding it.


Where do they get you people from? I've read enough of that site to see what they are about, the metal reviews in particular are just ridiculous. Also, you've never posted your views, day of slayer aside, so you are telling us we just need to read ANUS to find them?



Conservationist said:


> Luckily, I'm insulated against internet bullying and find it amusing that the more these people contort, the more ANUS grows.


This makes no sense.

Since this guy has just implicitly declared his allegiance to ANUS (straight from the orifice itself as it were), and contrapunctus567 or whatever was banned for the same infringement since the site promotes bigotry of various types, can't the admins ban him on this basis? I mean he does have that site in his sig, he's not being too subtle about it.


----------



## Mirror Image

Conservationist said:


> Nah, I'm a mostly classical music listener who also likes some metal.
> 
> My views **** off people who cannot understand them, hence your hobbled summary.
> 
> You could always try reading them to figure out what they are, but I think most internet people feel better hating something than understanding it.
> 
> Luckily, I'm insulated against internet bullying and find it amusing that the more these people contort, the more ANUS grows.


Don't you mean you're mostly a metal listener who likes some classical? I think this is more like it.


----------



## Conservationist

Clancy said:


> Also, you've never posted your views, day of slayer aside, so you are telling us we just need to read ANUS to find them?


Are my views relevant, except on topic? I don't really feel a need to discuss them. You were the one who brought up ANUS.



Clancy said:


> Since this guy has just implicitly declared his allegiance to ANUS (straight from the orifice itself as it were), and contrapunctus567 or whatever was banned for the same infringement since the site promotes bigotry of various types, can't the admins ban him on this basis? I mean he does have that site in his sig, he's not being too subtle about it.


Please provide evidence that the site promotes bigotry.

Please provide evidence that the site has damaged this forum.


----------



## Metalheadwholovesclasical

emiellucifuge said:


> Which album do you prefer?
> Noctambulant, or Cabinet?
> 
> Noctambulant for me


Most people seem to prefer Noctambulant, but I have always liked Cabinet a bit more. The song Inner Conflict is brilliant.


----------



## Dedrater

Mirror Image said:


> If he knows nothing about classical music, then I wonder why he is on a classical music forum? I mean that's like me being an electronics salesman and I know nothing about electronics. It just doesn't make sense.


So one must be a representative of an entity in order to interact with it? When was the last time a clothing store banned all non-fashion experts from entry? You may as well never speak to any newcomer to anything you enjoy if you harbor some xenophobic sentiment for non-initiates to whatever hobby/lifestyle-cult you've chosen to identify yourself by. This sounds like populist fascism, where indignance and fear are determinants for the extermination of those falsely perceived to be dissidents with ulterior motives. In reality, though, you're simply disseminating irrelevant hearsay to preserve some surrogate comfort-space. What does any of this -- or any of the political views of a single individual -- have to do with the legitimacy of intentions in a thread about metal music?



Clancy said:


> Since this guy has just implicitly declared his allegiance to ANUS (straight from the orifice itself as it were), and contrapunctus567 or whatever was banned for the same infringement since the site promotes bigotry of various types, can't the admins ban him on this basis? I mean he does have that site in his sig, he's not being too subtle about it.


Ah, the 'reverse-fascism to counteract fascism' approach. I've not seen any evidence on these forums of bigotry excepting mud-slingers such as yourself; how a polite discussion on musical aesthetics metamorphosed into finger-pointing and hysteria within a few posts is both fascinating and disappointing. Your clamoring for surrogate action, fundamentally, mimics that of conspiracy nuts and witch-seeking clergymen.



Mirror Image said:


> Don't you mean you're mostly a metal listener who likes some classical? I think this is more like it.


Who cares? I prefer Renaissance music to Mozart and Haydn. Do I possess some innate posting ability that is negated following my admission?

On topic:



Herzeleide said:


> From the Britannica Online Encyclopedia:
> 
> 'Philosophical study of the qualities that make something an object of aesthetic interest and of the nature of aesthetic value and judgment.'


Definition is redundant and useless.

Edited to note on ANUS: I implore you all to restrain yourselves from knee-jerk reactions, and to consider that you're probably conflating that site's ideology with the various ones espoused by National Socialist black metal bands. If I'm not mistaken, ANUS has denounced both the insipid music produced by these generic pretenders and their vitriolic political rhetoric.

Just something to think about.


----------



## sam richards

Dedrater said:


> So one must be a representative of an entity in order to interact with it? When was the last time a clothing store banned all non-fashion experts from entry? You may as well never speak to any newcomer to anything you enjoy if you harbor some xenophobic sentiment for non-initiates to whatever hobby/lifestyle-cult you've chosen to identify yourself by. This sounds like populist fascism, where indignance and fear are determinants for the extermination of those falsely perceived to be dissidents with ulterior motives. In reality, though, you're simply disseminating irrelevant hearsay to preserve some surrogate comfort-space. What does any of this -- or any of the political views of a single individual -- have to do with the legitimacy of intentions in a thread about metal music?


It is the fact Conservationist and most of the ANUSites (yes, you included) pretend to know about classical music when it's obvious that doesn't have the knowledge to discuss Classical. This is not a Metal forum.



Dedrater said:


> Ah, the 'reverse-fascism to counteract fascism' approach. I've not seen any evidence on these forums of bigotry excepting mud-slingers such as yourself; how a polite discussion on musical aesthetics metamorphosed into finger-pointing and hysteria within a few posts is both fascinating and disappointing. Your clamoring for surrogate action, fundamentally, mimics that of conspiracy nuts and witch-seeking clergymen.


LOL. There is a saying: The guilty always says that the Judge is at the fault.



Dedrater said:


> Edited to note on ANUS: I implore you all to restrain yourselves from knee-jerk reactions, and to consider that you're probably conflating that site's ideology with the various ones espoused by National Socialist black metal bands. If I'm not mistaken, ANUS has denounced both the insipid music produced by these generic pretenders and their vitriolic political rhetoric.


ANUS is just a troll organization who preach their ideology to the stupid and the gullible.

Other metal forums have learned not to take this seriously, but here in the Classical forum people are not, but I can assure you that people will gradually seeing the truth.


----------



## Conservationist

sam richards said:


> ANUS is just a troll organization who preach their ideology to the stupid and the gullible. Conservationist is paid to do this propaganda BS on forums.
> .


ANUS is not a troll organization; they're an organization that supports trolling as a method for conveying ideas. Here's their philosophy:

http://www.anus.com/zine/philosophy

Other metal forums actually embrace us with open arms -- it varies from forum to forum. Basically, it wouldn't be a big deal except you've decided to be brave Internet hero bully and save the helpless from us.

Here's a good thread of ANUS users discussing classical music:

http://www.anus.com/metal/hall/index.php?topic=3394.0

I'm here to talk music. If you cannot accept that, maybe you should put me on ignore so you can control your temper better.


----------



## Herzeleide

Dedrater said:


> Definition is redundant and useless.


If you can't even explain what's wrong with it like an adult, then why criticise it? Is the definition wrong by association or something?


----------



## Dedrater

sam richards said:


> It is the fact Conservationist and most of the ANUSites (yes, you included) pretend to know about classical music when it's obvious that doesn't have the knowledge to discuss Classical. This is not a Metal forum.


I wasn't aware that I was an 'ANUSite', but I'm glad that your generosity extends as far as to enlighten me. All this time, I thought I was simply interested in discussing and promoting high-quality music through whatever avenues available to me, but I guess I'm not allowed to do that here if I'm out of the sedative-administering loop that promotes both Bach and improvisational music while denying reality.

This _is_ a metal forum, actually -- that's why it's titled 'Metal Music Discussion'. In any case, it is typical for impassive forums dwellers to pretend to advocate free speech when the speech is mind-numbing/reassuring/self-referencing/confirms that hobbies are social predicates (it makes them feel in control of their lives), but their veils are always discarded when this control is challenged, either directly or indirectly.



> LOL. There is a saying: The guilty always says that the Judge is at the fault.


I'd hate to have you as my lawyer.


----------



## Dedrater

Herzeleide said:


> If you can't even explain what's wrong with it like an adult, then why criticise it? Is the definition wrong by association or something?


Derision and mockery are petty. I never challenged your credibility on this topic, nor did I ever call into question your worth as an individual; I simply [correctly] pointed out that the definition provided was redundant and useless. I'd bother to address this questioning of my adultness if it weren't for the fact that it's a totally emotional and incomprehensible parody of a completely unrelated point, and was engineered solely to win an Internet game with no regard for cleverness or relevance.


----------



## Batrider

sam richards said:


> This is not a Metal forum.


We can't talk in metal sub-forum about metal.Why this sub-forum then exist?


----------



## Krummhorn

Hi Batrider, 

I believe the thought behind the comment was that this "Forum", Talk Classical, is not a forum dedicated to Metal music, rather, it's primary emphasis is Classical music. 

Most forums have a "primary" interest ... the primary interest on this site is the promotion and discussion of all the genre's within Classical music. However, as is in the case of many "topical" forums, each has one or more areas dedicated to the discussion of other music styles. 

This is the main reason the "Non-Classical" forum area exists in this forum community. In recent months, we noted an increased activity for Metal music discussions in the non-classical area, so we created this sub-forum dedicated to that topic. 

So to answer your question, yes ... you can discuss metal in this sub-forum area.


----------



## Bach

But we still hate you and think your facile and pretentious breed of pop music is only fit to line a dust bin. 

..Is what he forgot to add..

Just messing, metalheads! I think you're sexy..


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## Krummhorn

who ... me? 

I appreciate all musicians


----------



## Bach

That's what they're calling themselves these days, is it..


----------



## Scott Good

Bach said:


> That's what they're calling themselves these days, is it..


Ha, you are funny!

I used to listen to metal quite a bit. I still like to get the head banging here and there.

On another forum I got into a little argument about Metal being a viable music (which I certainly think it is). But I think it is simply incorrect to compare Metal to the classical genre. As I said in the other forum, it's like comparing a lake to an ocean.

But don't get me wrong, I love lakes!

At any rate, I found this piece of music - I think this song is the bomb. Not so sure about their other tunes, but this one really got me.

The Dillenger Escape Plan - Panasonic Youth - 




And, in terms of theory, form, and complexity, this song has quite a bit going for it. I love how the 4/4 time is only eluded through additive and dimunitive procedures until the very end - 11 seconds of full on rock out head banging! They use meter to effect the emotions very effectively IMHO.


----------



## Clancy

Ahh, DEP. I loved Calculating Infinity, that album was spectacular. Never really considered them metal myself, just an insanely talented hardcore* band. For those feeling adventurous, here is 43% Burnt. Even if you are used to metal, it's a tad.. harsh. Not to mention the head-spinning twists and turns the track takes.

Bach: didn't you declare reggae to be the best popular music genre once? ha!

*a type of punk/metal crossover. Think metal music with a more serious "punk" aesthetic. No wizards, no nerdy [deleted].


----------



## Scott Good

Clancy said:


> Ahh, DEP. I loved Calculating Infinity, that album was spectacular. Never really considered them metal myself, just an insanely talented hardcore* band. For those feeling adventurous, here is 43% Burnt. Even if you are used to metal, it's a tad.. harsh. Not to mention the head-spinning twists and turns the track takes.
> 
> Bach: didn't you declare reggae to be the best popular music genre once? ha!
> 
> *a type of punk/metal crossover. Think metal music with a more serious "punk" aesthetic. No wizards, no nerdy [deleted].


Cool tune! Still more of a fan of Panasonic Youth (maybe because it was my first), but this one is loads of fun.

Kinda reminded me of Ministry...I mean, very different, but similar..emotion..?..effect..?..harshness..


----------



## Bach

Clancy said:


> Ahh, DEP. I loved Calculating Infinity, that album was spectacular. Never really considered them metal myself, just an insanely talented hardcore* band. For those feeling adventurous, here is 43% Burnt. Even if you are used to metal, it's a tad.. harsh. Not to mention the head-spinning twists and turns the track takes.
> 
> Bach: didn't you declare reggae to be the best popular music genre once? ha!
> 
> *a type of punk/metal crossover. Think metal music with a more serious "punk" aesthetic. No wizards, no nerdy [deleted].


I'm not getting into this argument again - I'll only say that reggae is far more organic, cultured and soulful than metal. In fact, metal represents everything I hate about the west.


----------



## Clancy

Bach said:


> I'm not getting into this argument again - I'll only say that reggae is far more organic, cultured and soulful than metal. In fact, metal represents everything I hate about the west.


Ha, that's the thing with metal - it represents something different to just about everyone, and is a very broad church of styles. It almost sounds like you have picked up on the ANUS [insult redacted] interpretation of metal, which is a shame. I don't think I've ever met anyone with their attitudes at a gig/festival, they seem to be an internet-only thing - which says a lot, I think.

Also, I've hung out with both the reggae and metal crowds in my time, and I have to say that both sets of people are boisterous and fun-loving - the main difference being that metallers primarily go for beer and reggae types go for, well, herbal supplements.


----------



## Conservationist

Bach said:


> I'm not getting into this argument again - I'll only say that reggae is far more organic, cultured and soulful than metal. In fact, metal represents everything I hate about the west.


Reggae? Seems like the same stuff as other pop songs.

When you say metal, WHAT exactly are you referring to?

Some of us use the term to mean basically death metal and black metal because we can't stand the mainstream stuff.


----------



## Conservationist

Clancy said:


> I don't think I've ever met anyone with their attitudes at a gig/festival, they seem to be an internet-only thing - which says a lot, I think.


Probably not, since people don't talk about ideas at gigs.


----------



## Bach

Conservationist said:


> Reggae? Seems like the same stuff as other pop songs.
> 
> When you say metal, WHAT exactly are you referring to?
> 
> Some of us use the term to mean basically death metal and black metal because we can't stand the mainstream stuff.


It all sounds the same to me. Meshuggah, Opeth, Slipknot, Slayer.. doesn't matter. They're all geeky satanists and their music sounds like sped up computerised noise with foul vocals and laughable subject matters.


----------



## Conservationist

Bach said:


> It all sounds the same to me. Meshuggah, Opeth, Slipknot, Slayer.. doesn't matter. They're all geeky satanists and their music sounds like sped up computerised noise with foul vocals and laughable subject matters.


Well, if it's not your culture -- subject matter and vocals being two things you mentioned -- you'll be biased against it and end up hating it. However, I highly recommend avoiding:

1. Meshuggah -- completely overrated simplistic rhythm music.
2. Opeth -- fake prog rock, completely incoherent.
3. Slipknot -- this is nu-metal. Avoid all nu-metal.
4. Slayer, after "South of Heaven" -- that was their last good album

Feast your eyes on some soulful AND INTERESTING metal WITHOUT SATANIC CONTENT like Demilich, Atheist, first album Cynic, Pestilence, etc.

For the record, the Satanic stuff is a subset of the occult fascination of Western Romantics, and is generally used metaphorically as in Blake and Milton, both devout theists.

If you are going to approach metal, it makes sense to listen to the stuff that's off the beaten path and not that which the MTV/Hot Topic crowd tends to like. Counterintuitive perhaps but it's worked for me.


----------



## Bach

Do you know what 'Pestilence' means - the English word, that is..?

The word Demilich no doubt comes from the German for corpse. (Leiche)

Atheist - anti anti anti.. I like positivity. 

Cynic - a group of philosophers famous for their contempt for ease and pleasure

I'm not into nihilism or pointless negativity. My life is good, I'm lucky to be alive, and so are they. They should be grateful. Music should exalt beauty, wonder and joy.


----------



## Mirror Image

Bach said:


> Do you know what 'Pestilence' means - the English word, that is..?
> 
> The word Demilich no doubt comes from the German for corpse. (Leiche)
> 
> Atheist - anti anti anti.. I like positivity.
> 
> Cynic - a group of philosophers famous for their contempt for ease and pleasure
> 
> I'm not into nihilism or pointless negativity. My life is good, I'm lucky to be alive, and so are they. They should be grateful. Music should exalt beauty, wonder and joy.


Amen to that. That reason alone, and the fact that I hate metal or any kind of "music" which lacks real musicianship, should be reason enough to avoid it.


----------



## Chessnut

Conservationist knows what he is talking about. Demilich is one of few death metal bands I can stand.



> I'm not into nihilism or pointless negativity. My life is good, I'm lucky to be alive, and so are they. They should be grateful. Music should exalt beauty, wonder and joy.


Without death, what does life mean? Without decay, can new life bloom? Death metal represents this "grotesque beauty" which I don't care much for, but it is interesting. Of course, there are dumb death metal bands like Cannibal Corpse that should be avoided.

Regarding Bach's quote, I think "Burzum - My Journey to the Stars" sums up what music "should exalt".

If lurking serves me correctly, Bach enjoys the Beetles? If so, then we have quite the hipster on our hands.

Cheers.


----------



## Dim7

About metal and negativity: I find metal powerful, energetic and even uplifting. It is perhaps angry, but not really depressing IMO.



Conservationist said:


> 1. Meshuggah -- completely overrated simplistic rhythm music.


This is so true. They just play two or three note riffs completely arbitrary rhythms, repeat it ridiculously many times and for the last time stop the riff abruptly so that it fits with the 4/4 drums. Drums often play simultaneously in two time signatures, which must be a pain in the *** to play but it's never sounds particularly complex or interesting. Granted that they are very precise players, the song-making process is apparently rather random and unimaginative. The vocalist has absolutely no variation in pitch or tone; just same dull, "thrashy" shouting vocals (the worst kind of harsh vocals IMO). The songs are also ridiculously alike. Overrated garbage, IMO.



Mirror Image said:


> Amen to that. That reason alone, and the fact that I hate metal or any kind of "music" which lacks real musicianship, should be reason enough to avoid it.


What do you mean by "real musicianship" and how does metal lack it?


----------



## Mirror Image

Cmaj7 said:


> What do you mean by "real musicianship" and how does metal lack it?


Real musicians don't play metal, they play classical and jazz. Rock, metal, country, etc. are all styles of music that were created, in my opinion, because these "musicians" couldn't play classical or jazz and obviously showed no desire to do so, which in turn, means they don't understand the kind of commitment it takes to become a virtuoso on their instrument. But instrumentalists aside, there aren't any rewarding qualities about metal that interests me.

Rock, metal, and all of this other stuff that isn't jazz or classical is simply what I call "fluff music." It may be have a chord progression that you like or may contain a "solo" that you like, but ultimately, it just scratches the surface of what real music does, which would be stimulate you emotionally and intellectually.


----------



## Scum

> which would be stimulate you emotionally and intellectually.


How do you know it doesn't? Works pretty well for me.


----------



## Dim7

> Real musicians don't play metal, they play classical and jazz


That hardly answers my question "what is real musicianship?"



> Rock, metal, country, etc. are all styles of music that were created, in my opinion, because these "musicians" couldn't play classical or jazz.


That's not your opinion, that's your claim about facts, and therefore is either true or false. It's an absurd claim also. There is a demand for simpler and catchier music than classical or jazz whether the musicians can play those two genres or not. Both are largely instrumental which is a problem for many listeners. Jazz also relies so much for improvisation that it sounds often incoherent. Even though sometimes I have a desire to listen to epic, larger-than-life symphonies of Mahler which "are like the world and embrace everything" or mysterious, subtle impressionism of Debussy, sometimes I'm too frustated and impatient for that and instead prefer more concise, primitive, in-your-face approach of metal. Whether classical or jazz musicians are more skilled is irrelevant in those moods. I'm sure this is true for many other listeners too.


----------



## Dim7

It seems that Mirror Image edited his post, now it says that "Rock, metal, country, etc. are all styles of music that were created, in my opinion, because these "musicians" couldn't play classical or jazz _and obviously showed no desire to do so_." Well that's kinda obvious; rock/metal/country/etc. were created because those musicians wanted to play something else than already established genres.



Mirror Image said:


> they don't understand the kind of commitment it takes to become a virtuoso on their instrument.


Metal has shitloads of virtuoso guitarists, so if you mean by "real musicianship" instrumental skills then the claim is simply false. One of the reasons I was at one time very focused on this genre because no other genre seemed to have such emphasis on guitar riffs and solos; this was especially interesting as an electric guitarist myself.

I can however understand that metal, rock, popular music etc. can sound naive and shallow if one is used to a genre like classical.


----------



## Aramis

Mirror Image said:


> Real musicians don't play metal, they play classical and jazz. Rock, metal, country, etc. are all styles of music that were created, in my opinion, because these "musicians" couldn't play classical or jazz


This is absurd.

Won't you call Don Van Vliet or Robert Fripp "real musicians"? What about blues and folk music?


----------



## Mirror Image

Aramis said:


> This is absurd.
> 
> Won't you call Don Van Vliet or Robert Fripp "real musicians"? What about blues and folk music?


What about them? Like I said if they were real musicians then they would playing classical and jazz. Sorry to disappoint you, but that's how I feel.


----------



## Mirror Image

Cmaj7 said:


> It seems that Mirror Image edited his post, now it says that "Rock, metal, country, etc. are all styles of music that were created, in my opinion, because these "musicians" couldn't play classical or jazz _and obviously showed no desire to do so_." Well that's kinda obvious; rock/metal/country/etc. were created because those musicians wanted to play something else than already established genres.
> 
> Metal has shitloads of virtuoso guitarists, so if you mean by "real musicianship" instrumental skills then the claim is simply false. One of the reasons I was at one time very focused on this genre because no other genre seemed to have such emphasis on guitar riffs and solos; this was especially interesting as an electric guitarist myself.
> 
> I can however understand that metal, rock, popular music etc. can sound naive and shallow if one is used to a genre like classical.


Whatever you say. I'll just agree to disagree with all of the above comments and be on my way.


----------



## Scum

Then why bother posting?


----------



## Mirror Image

Sorry if I offended anybody with comments. Classical and jazz have been apart of my family for a very long time. In fact, I come from a long line of jazz musicians. My great grandfather was a jazz trumpeter, my grandfather was a jazz and classical trumpeter; bandleader and my Dad was an excellent big band trumpeter and I've carried on that lineage through jazz guitar.

Yes, by nature, rock, country, metal, folk, blues....anything that isn't classical or jazz is going to sound amateurish to me. I remember I played in an R & B cover band when I was 16 just so I could buy some of my own jazz recordings. Did I like playing R & B? No I didn't, in fact, I hated it, but I had to make some fast cash, because you think I was going to get a gig playing jazz? Hell no, I wasn't and never would, especially where I lived.

My point in all of this is that I learned all of this other music in matter of hours, but it takes a lifetime to get good at jazz and classical. Not only because of its history, but because of the high technical demands it takes for you to play it.

Call this elitism, call this foolishness, call this what you will, I won't argue my points, because I already made them.


----------



## Aramis

Mirror Image said:


> What about them? Like I said if they were real musicians then they would playing classical and jazz. Sorry to disappoint you, but that's how I feel.


One of my mates is jazz saxophonist. He plays jazz. He is not a virtuoso, great composer or improvisator. Nobody listen to his works. But in your opinion he is a real musician. Because he plays jazz. I also know a guy, which plays guitar. He's member of blues band, and he's really great - he mastered his instrument far more than my friend saxophonist. But he is not real musician. Where is the logic here?

If we have to generalize, yes, jazz and classical are the most demanding genres of music. It's obvious. But there are many jazz/classical musicians that play average and simple music, and a lot of musicians that play interesting and valueable music which can't be considered as stricte jazz or classical. Your statement is injurious to them.


----------



## Mirror Image

Aramis said:


> One of my mates is jazz saxophonist. He plays jazz. He is not a virtuoso, great composer or improvisator. Nobody listen to his works. But in your opinion he is a real musician. Because he plays jazz. I also know a guy, which plays guitar. He's member of blues band, and he's really great - he mastered his instrument far more than my friend saxophonist. But he is not real musician. Where is the logic here?
> 
> If we have to generalize, yes, jazz and classical are the most demanding genres of music. It's obvious. But there are many jazz/classical musicians that play average and simple music, and a lot of musicians that play interesting and valueable music which can't be considered as stricte jazz or classical. Your statement is injurious to them.


It's just an opinion, Aramis. Also, read my above statements and you'll get a better idea of why I feel the way I do.


----------



## Scott Good

Mirror Image said:


> My great grandfather was a jazz trumpeter, my grandfather was a jazz and classical trumpeter; bandleader and my Dad was an excellent big band trumpeter


This explains everything! Trumpet players...the great egoists of the music world.

(just kidding...seriously I love the trumpet and most of it's practitioners! In fact, my trumpet concerto was premiered a couple of weeks ago - hopefully I can share a bit of it with you all sometime...)



Mirror Image said:


> and I've carried on that lineage through jazz guitar.


Humm...frets and button pushers don't impress me.

(again, kidding of course.)

Of course, we are all entitled to opinions. But, honestly, I think one should draw the line at saying someone's music isn't music. That's tantamount to bigotry (beyond elitism) in my opinion.

You can hate it, just don't deny it to exist.


----------



## Mirror Image

Scott Good said:


> You can hate it, just don't deny it to exist.


I didn't deny they exist, I just denied them as being apart of my musical life.


----------



## Conservationist

Mirror Image said:


> Yes, by nature, rock, country, metal, folk, blues....anything that isn't classical or jazz is going to sound amateurish to me.


Jazz sounds amateurish to me now. Not the standards of playing, but the artistic standards and the philosophy behind them is retarded. I can handle some metal, and some ambient artists, where the playing level may or may not be less, but the artistic standards are much higher.

Classical is another story.


----------



## Conservationist

Bach said:


> Do you know what 'Pestilence' means - the English word, that is..?
> 
> The word Demilich no doubt comes from the German for corpse. (Leiche)
> 
> Atheist - anti anti anti.. I like positivity.
> 
> Cynic - a group of philosophers famous for their contempt for ease and pleasure
> 
> I'm not into nihilism or pointless negativity. My life is good, I'm lucky to be alive, and so are they. They should be grateful. Music should exalt beauty, wonder and joy.


I consider positivity to be as negative as negativity, sensu Nietzsche; if you have to limit yourself to only the positive, by inversion you consider life negative.

Cynic, re: the school of philosophers, had more to their beliefs than that.

Demilich is a term borrowed from a role-playing game 

Also, are you certain nihilism is negative? Could be a pathway to clearer thinking, thus positive.


----------



## Conservationist

Scott Good said:


> I think one should draw the line at saying someone's music isn't music. That's tantamount to bigotry (beyond elitism) in my opinion.


Everyone is a bigot about something.

I don't have a problem with elitism, or saying that most things are FAIL. It's true.

Whether you say it's not music, or say it sucks, same difference at the end of the day.

I hear all the time "rap isn't music" and "metal isn't music." I prefer to analyze styles on their artistic aims.

Jazz is music, and rap is music, just with cowardly or stupid artistic aims.


----------



## Scott Good

Conservationist said:


> Everyone is a bigot about something.


Ok. But that doesn't mean it should be part of public discourse, and that it is right.



Conservationist said:


> I don't have a problem with elitism, or saying that most things are FAIL. It's true.
> 
> Whether you say it's not music, or say it sucks, same difference at the end of the day.


Not to me. I think everyone has the right to believe in music. For me, it is a kind of worship that transcends any aesthetic preferences.

Music is pure. That is my belief structure.



Conservationist said:


> I hear all the time "rap isn't music" and "metal isn't music." I prefer to analyze styles on their artistic aims.
> 
> Jazz is music, and rap is music, just with cowardly or stupid artistic aims.


Ok, that is your opinion. It doesn't communicate relevant ideas to you, and that is your right.

Let me drawn an extreme analogy. One can disagree with another culture, but one cannot deny that it is culture. If they do, they are saying they are not human, because it is our culture that separates us from the animal world.

Yes yes, we are all animals. But we are human animals, and quite distinct. Our distinctness has been manifested in our culture - and it is our birthright to have culture, just as it is to have water, food, shelter, and rights. This is called civilization.

Is this too much? Perhaps. But it is how I frame things.


----------



## Mirror Image

Conservationist said:


> Jazz sounds amateurish to me now. Not the standards of playing, but the artistic standards and the philosophy behind them is retarded. I can handle some metal, and some ambient artists, where the playing level may or may not be less, but the artistic standards are much higher.
> 
> Classical is another story.


Yeah, jazz is retarded. 

It only takes the most brilliant musical minds to play it.

A few examples of brilliant jazz musicians:

Miles Davis









Thelonious Monk









Bill Evans









John Coltrane


----------



## sam richards

About Opeth:
www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=30875

Yeah, I know they "suck" because don't preach racism/all that pseudo-intellectual BS and actually try to make impressive music instead of churning out primitive, 3-riff, poorly produced songs with metronome-like drums, right?


----------



## Bach

Bill Evans is the coolest white guy ever.


----------



## Dim7

I'd like to comment on the relationship between classical & metal. You guys are probably kinda bored of this discussion, but anyways:

While there are sometimes, or even often, classical influences in metal they are by no means _essential_ to metal. What makes metal metal has little to do with classical; you can have 100 % metal song with has practically nothing to do with classical, unless we count using the major/minor, diatonic tonal system as a classical influence (though admittedly, that is at least more classical than pentatonicism and bluesy chromaticism which is often characteristic of rock). 
Metal usually uses fairly standard structures as in rock, pop etc., and is based more on repetition than development. That makes it rather different from classical. Prog metal bands and some symphonic/power metal songs (though usually power metal is structurally VERY generic) often try to use more ambitious and extended forms.
Metal musicians prefer rougher timbres (distorted electric guitar obviously and often harsh vocals) than classical. The distortion effect also tends to **** up triads, almost forcing to use mainly powerchords, making metal harmonically much simpler. Symphonic/power metal is an exception to this, imitating orchestral sounds with synds or using real orchestra and sometimes harpsichord. These "influences" are kinda obvious and superficial. 
Metal guitar virtuosos like Malmsteen have been influenced by Paganini, using similar scalar/arpeggio runs and patterns; harmonic minor scale plus minor, major and dim7 arpeggios. This rarely occurs in rock solos which are more pentatonic.


----------



## Mirror Image

Bach said:


> Bill Evans is the coolest white guy ever.


Yes he was and he was also one of the greatest jazz pianists of all-time.


----------



## Bach

I worship his playing style. I have to admit, my own improvisational style is more influenced by him than anyone else. I own every recording he ever made.


----------



## Mirror Image

Bach said:


> I worship his playing style. I have to admit, my own improvisational style is more influenced by him than anyone else. I own every recording he ever made.


Yeah, I own everything he's done too. 

The albums "Waltz For Debby," "Portrait in Jazz," and "Explorations" are still my favorites. For me, he lost kind of his vibe after the death of Scott LaFaro. He never found another trio quite like the one with LaFaro and Motian again.

Although the one with Eddie Gomez and Eliot Zigmund was great.

I've written a few little articles on some of my favorite jazz musicians here:

http://bebopessentials.blogspot.com/


----------



## Bach

Is that your blog? Seems pretty good mate!


----------



## Mirror Image

Bach said:


> Is that your blog? Seems pretty good mate!


That's my blog. I haven't written anything in it in quite awhile. One of the main ideas behind this blog was just to introduce people to some key figures in bebop.


----------



## Conservationist

Cmaj7 said:


> Metal usually uses fairly standard structures as in rock, pop etc., and is based more on repetition than development.


In your opinion, does this apply to death metal and black metal as well?


----------



## Dim7

Black metal I've heard has been very repetitive, though its probably true that the structures are not really of typical rock/pop style either. I'm not into black metal so I can't say much about that. Death metal is sometimes structurally a bit proggish perhaps, though the death metal I have listened to specifially falls within the so called "techical death metal" subgenre, so I don't know about standard death metal.


----------



## Dedrater

Mirror Image said:


> What about them? Like I said if they were real musicians then they would playing classical and jazz. Sorry to disappoint you, but that's how I feel.





Mirror Image said:


> Classical and jazz have been apart of my family for a very long time.


Catholicism has been a part of my family for a very long time, but I am not a Catholic. Isn't this attitude what perpetuates obliviousness and negativity -- the things which you claim are manifest in the aesthetic of metal music?

Programmers should have a fit upon encountering jazz, because not only is its general methodology unsound and incoherent, but its linguistic content is as well. Anyone who searches for a new form and worries about content later is as guilty of insanity as one whose confirmation bias prevents him from empirically interpreting the result of an experiment or discovery.

Here's your argument, adjusted to fit symbolic speech instead of music: George W. Bush is a moron whose rhetoric is indicative of his lack of credibility as a political figure. Let's completely eradicate his colloquialisms, southern accent, made-up words, blunders, simplicity, and general manner of speech in favor of prose similar in structure and style to Edgar Allan Poe, but keep his basic messages the same. So much better, right?

But it doesn't change what _he's saying._



Cmaj7 said:


> While there are sometimes, or even often, classical influences in metal they are by no means _essential_ to metal. What makes metal metal has little to do with classical; you can have 100 % metal song with has practically nothing to do with classical, unless we count using the major/minor, diatonic tonal system as a classical influence (though admittedly, that is at least more classical than pentatonicism and bluesy chromaticism which is often characteristic of rock).


While I acknowledge the Classical influence -- and its multitude of variations -- in metal, I fail to see what the precise theoretical aspects of both paradigms have to do with the similarity of their strivances and passions. In feeling, content, and general attempt at superseding cyclic song structures (which are more mnemonic than anything else), they parallel one another. Jazz neglects Romantic ideals, heroism, power, death, struggle, immensity, or the supra-personal aspects of life and instead utilizes mindless improvisation to justify its ideological and emotional alliance with rock, pop, and blues.


----------



## Mirror Image

Dedrater said:


> Catholicism has been a part of my family for a very long time, but I am not a Catholic. Isn't this attitude what perpetuates obliviousness and negativity -- the things which you claim are manifest in the aesthetic of metal music?
> 
> Programmers should have a fit upon encountering jazz, because not only is its general methodology unsound and incoherent, but its linguistic content is as well. Anyone who searches for a new form and worries about content later is as guilty of insanity as one whose confirmation bias prevents him from empirically interpreting the result of an observation.
> 
> Here's your argument, adjusted to fit symbolic speech instead of music: George W. Bush is a moron whose rhetoric is indicative of his lack of credibility as a political figure. Let's completely eradicate his colloquialisms, southern accent, made-up words, blunders, simplicity, and general manner of speech in favor of prose similar in structure and style to Edgar Allan Poe, but keep his basic messages the same. So much better, right?
> 
> But it doesn't change what _he's saying._


That was a hilarious post. Thanks for the laugh.


----------



## Metalheadwholovesclasical

Bach said:


> It all sounds the same to me. Meshuggah, Opeth, Slipknot, Slayer.. doesn't matter. They're all geeky satanists and their music sounds like sped up computerised noise with foul vocals and laughable subject matters.


This post made me laugh. Only shows his ignorance and little knowledge about metal.

So now:








Hahaha, sorry I NEEDED to post that here.
EDIT: Also, the satanic part and foul vocals I believe I have countered against you several times in the previous metal thread, however you never seemed to reply.


----------



## Dedrater

Bach said:


> It all sounds the same to me. Meshuggah, Opeth, Slipknot, Slayer.. doesn't matter. They're all geeky satanists and their music sounds like sped up computerised noise with foul vocals and laughable subject matters.


Someone who has never given Classical their time approaches you. "It all sounds the same to me. Salieri, Schoenberg, John Williams, Cage.. doesn't matter. They're all geeky marching band rejects and their music sounds like **** you'd hear playing in an elevator or in the background of a cheesy action flick."

Would that statement appear logical and well-argued to you?

Consider:


----------



## Mirror Image

Dedrater said:


> Someone who has never given Classical their time approaches you. "It all sounds the same to me. Salieri, Schoenberg, John Williams, Cage.. doesn't matter. They're all geeky marching band rejects and their music sounds like **** you'd hear playing in an elevator or in the background of a cheesy action flick."
> 
> Would that statement appear logical and well-argued to you?
> 
> Consider:


You're actually defending metal and passing it off as some kind of great music? You're very funny.


----------



## Dedrater

Mirror Image said:


> You're actually defending metal and passing it off as some kind of great music? You're very funny.


Three of the four videos I linked to showcase imagery not at all dissimilar to a 19th Century landscape painting in the manner of Friedrich, Grimshaw, or Heade. None of the videomakers are affiliated with ANUS to my knowledge.

Why do you think they decided to supplement the music with these images? Are they also juvenile Satanists or evil, freedom-hating Nazis?


----------



## Mirror Image

Dedrater said:


> Three of the four videos I linked to showcase imagery not at all dissimilar to a 19th Century landscape painting in the manner of Friedrich, Grimshaw, or Heade. None of the videomakers are affiliated with ANUS to my knowledge.
> 
> Why do you think they decided to supplement the music with these images? Are they also juvenile Satanists?


What in the world are you even talking about? 

One of the problems with metal, in my opinion, is the insistent screaming these vocalists think they have to do all the time. Is there a point to screaming like a banshee?


----------



## Dedrater

Mirror Image said:


> What in the world are you even talking about?


Just justifying my 'defense' of metal, which is what I thought you were asking for. Your previous post contained a question, after all.

In return, I'm asking you to consider using critical thought and analysis to come to a logical conclusion regarding this subject. What on Earth would a beautiful image of an orange sky towering above a mountain have to do with metal? You tell me.


----------



## Mirror Image

Dedrater said:


> In return, I'm asking you to consider using critical thought and analysis to come to a logical conclusion regarding this subject. What on Earth would a beautiful image of an orange sky towering above a mountain have to do with metal? You tell me.


Is this a trick question? Are you going to read me my fortune from a crystal ball next?


----------



## Metalheadwholovesclasical

Mirror Image said:


> What in the world are you even talking about?
> 
> One of the problems with metal, in my opinion, is the insistent screaming these vocalists think they have to do all the time. Is there a point to screaming like a banshee?


They all scream? Really???

This is definately screaming.





So is this.





And this.





And this.





And especially this





EDIT: Now in all seriousness.

Depends what style of metal you refer to. The only metal genre I would say "sreams" is black metal, which is really a hit or miss genre. It is either amazing or horrible.





Now there is loud singing in a lot of metal, like in NWOBHM and some Doom, but not screaming.





There is also yelling in the genre of Thrash metal, which is uaually a very good genre. It is still coming out with great bands.





Then there is Death Metal, which is well, growling. Not screaming. 





Different genres use different styles of vocals to fit in with the instrumentals. For example, you won't be seeing soft singing in a Cannibal Corpse song, it does not fit.


----------



## Mirror Image

Metalheadwholovesclasical said:


> Different genres use different styles of vocals to fit in with the instrumentals. For example, you won't be seeing soft singing in a Cannibal Corpse song, it does not fit.


You won't be seeing me listening to metal either....ever. I don't listen to nonsense.


----------



## Metalheadwholovesclasical

Mirror Image said:


> You won't be seeing me listening to metal either....ever. I don't listen to nonsense.


I don't see this "nonsense" you speak of my friend


----------



## Bach

Dedrater said:


> Someone who has never given Classical their time approaches you. "It all sounds the same to me. Salieri, Schoenberg, John Williams, Cage.. doesn't matter. They're all geeky marching band rejects and their music sounds like **** you'd hear playing in an elevator or in the background of a cheesy action flick."
> 
> Would that statement appear logical and well-argued to you?


Yes, but you can't compare metal to classical. Metal is a very specific genre of underground pop music and classical is a summation of thousands of years of western culture.

Metal isn't musicians music. I simply don't know any musicians of considerable talent who value it as an art form. It doesn't sound musical - it sounds like a bleeding noise (there is no subtlety in permanent FORTISSIMO and POWER FIFTHS). And the metal I've heard that does attempt musicality just sounds basic and boring and the vocalists can't sing - about as harmonically complex as a nursery rhyme song pretentiously talking about death and angels and redemption - as if these drugged out D- students have any right to discuss anything academic..


----------



## Conservationist

Bach said:


> Metal isn't musicians music. I simply don't know any musicians of considerable talent who value it as an art form. It doesn't sound musical - it sounds like a bleeding noise (there is no subtlety in permanent FORTISSIMO and POWER FIFTHS). And the metal I've heard that does attempt musicality just sounds basic and boring and the vocalists can't sing - about as harmonically complex as a nursery rhyme song pretentiously talking about death and angels and redemption - as if these drugged out D- students have any right to discuss anything academic..


Interestingly, I feel the same way about jazz. It's many self-impressed people who do not bother to structure their thoughts, and think that variety compensates for character.

Also, as shown above, you refuse to listen to the better quality metal in order to unseat your opinion. On the other hand, I listened to the best quality jazz before making my assessment.


----------



## Bach

If it was a purely instrumental form of music, then I might learn to enjoy some metal. It's the disgusting lyrics that **** me off. 

If you can name me any decent metal bands that don't employ any vocals at all, then I may change my mind.


----------



## Conservationist

Bach said:


> If it was a purely instrumental form of music, then I might learn to enjoy some metal. It's the disgusting lyrics that **** me off.


I understand, and again must recommend Demilich and Atheist. I'm not even sure Atheist are atheistic so much as contra-dualism.

I am not aware of metal instrumentals of great note. Obviously, people love Metallica's "Orion" but I'm not the world's biggest Metallica fan.

Enslaved's "Vikinglgr Veldi" is mostly instrumental, reminiscent of the Scandinavian folk music from which all Western popular music springs.


----------



## Mirror Image

Bach said:


> If it was a purely instrumental form of music, then I might learn to enjoy some metal. It's the disgusting lyrics that **** me off.
> 
> If you can name me any decent metal bands that don't employ any vocals at all, then I may change my mind.


No, Bach, no! Don't give in to mediocrity! Metal is nonsense. It's all rooted in something that doesn't serve any purpose. It's only purpose, it seems, is to make people bash beer bottles on their heads and run around in a mosh pit like some uncivilized tribal ritual. The only difference here is people get hurt for no reason.


----------



## Scum

> Interestingly, I feel the same way about jazz. It's many self-impressed people who do not bother to structure their thoughts, and think that variety compensates for character.


I would agree with you some time ago, but I've changed my mind. Jazz is OK, and I don't like to compare genres ("JAS >>> METUL, YA REITAHRD, MA MUSIK'S MOAR SAFISTICATD THEN URS!") - it's just *different*, not better or worse.

There is structure in jazz, actually - yes, it's more flexible and spontaneous, but it's not pure randomness. A piece takes some time to form - every time the musicians play it, they change something in the improvisation, make it better, cut off parts which don't fit right...

Morbid Angel formed their classic Altars of Madness and to some extent Blessed are the Sick like that - the riffs and the songs were created 4-5 years before their actual release and with the band constantly playing together, they evolved into the monsters we know.

As for the harsh vocals in metal: it's dramatic. It's not singing, it's acting. Imagine: the main character and his drama and the music, holding it all together, creating the structure, thrusting the piece forward.

I don't know how to explain it but... It's beautiful.

Just give it a try, come on... Type in "Unquestionable Presence blogspot" in Google and just give it a try - stop feeding your ego and open your mind.


----------



## Dedrater

Bach said:


> Metal isn't musicians music. I simply don't know any musicians of considerable talent who value it as an art form.


Given its relative newness and lack of exposure, that's hardly surprising. Do you know any musicians who consider the music of ancient Greece to be valuable? Listen to the vocals in the following piece:






Does this rely on the medieval conceptions of melody or harmony? If not, is it still musical?

As stated by Scum, there is a theatrical element to extreme metal vocals. Many metal musicians initially were not familiar with theory, so they rejected the emotionally limited, bluesy vocal intonations of their influences in the only way they knew how.

Digressing, I provide you one particular approach out of several to a metal instrumental:






For another approach, you could search for "Gorguts Sweet Silence" on YouTube, but their search function appears to be broken right now, so I can't produce an actual link.


----------



## Metalheadwholovesclasical

Bach said:


> If it was a purely instrumental form of music, then I might learn to enjoy some metal. It's the disgusting lyrics that **** me off.
> 
> If you can name me any decent metal bands that don't employ any vocals at all, then I may change my mind.


Sleep Terror's old stuff. Purely instrumental death metal.


----------



## Scott Good

Bach said:


> If it was a purely instrumental form of music, then I might learn to enjoy some metal. It's the disgusting lyrics that **** me off.
> 
> If you can name me any decent metal bands that don't employ any vocals at all, then I may change my mind.


here you go (there is lots of screaming, but no words). Not really a "metal" band, but certainly influenced by it. I think they are decent, but not in the "etiquette" kind of way.

Warning - very angry and repetitive music.

Praxis - Rivet


----------



## bdelykleon

Scott Good said:


> here you go (there is lots of screaming, but no words). Not really a "metal" band, but certainly influenced by it. I think they are decent, but not in the "etiquette" kind of way.
> 
> Warning - very angry and repetitive music.
> 
> Praxis - Rivet


After hearing this, I think I will have to listen to all Bach's cantatas to clean up my ears...


----------



## Dedrater

Metalheadwholovesclasical said:


> Sleep Terror's old stuff. Purely instrumental death metal.


See, to me, some of the parts in this piece don't fit logically next to one another, so it as a whole exudes a kind of forced compartmentalization. It's as if they're saying, "See? We don't need those verses and choruses!" as they throw in random phrases, betraying their pointless fascination with quantity.

Something about it is a little too obvious in a way that both Atheist and Gorguts avoid. The treble as well as the clicky nature of the bass drums is cliche and annoying, and recalls much of other substanceless modern death metal like Origin. Creativity, direction, and coherence are sacrificed at the expense of staying 'brutal' for no discernible reason, while a "Get the **** up, yo!" riff brings everything to a mediocre finish.

The pioneers had it right all along.


----------



## Dim7

Dedrater said:


> See, to me, some of the parts in this piece don't fit logically next to one another, so it as a whole exudes a kind of forced compartmentalization. It's as if they're saying, "See? We don't need those verses and choruses!" as they throw in random phrases, betraying their pointless fascination with quantity.


This is a feeling I often get when I listen to prog rock/metal. Classical is better at having not-so-predictable/redundant forms without sounding incoherent. When musicians of other genres try to be more ambitious they just end being clumsy usually.


----------



## Scott Good

bdelykleon said:


> After hearing this, I think I will have to listen to all Bach's cantatas to clean up my ears...


Wow, it's that powerful, eh?

Start with St Mathews, I think it will do the trick on it's own.

Peace out,

Scott


----------



## Conservationist

Cmaj7 said:


> This is a feeling I often get when I listen to prog rock/metal.


It's a feeling I often get when listening to rock, blues, jazz, and most newer progressive rock. I don't get that feeling from good death metal, which specializes in making riffs that appear abruptly random fit together into a whole pattern.


----------



## Deesnuts

Herzeleide said:


> Dear Krummhorn,
> 
> Since heavy metal is actually labelled popular music by every music dictionary, what precisely is _fair_ about willful disregard for the truth? (Apropos acquiescence to the purportedly 'fair' conditions of which you speak.)


So is ambient music but I don't see Steve Roach in the Top 40 charts, same way I don't see Sargeist or Diocletian there either.


----------



## Deesnuts

To quote the guy from Krieg: "will metal help change this? It gives people an outlet to express their rage at things they cannot control at a constructive level rather than turning to the bottle or needle. It can also help them look at things from a different perspective. Christ that’s a lot of positivity from me."


----------



## Deesnuts

Bach said:


> But we still hate you and think your facile and pretentious breed of pop music is only fit to line a dust bin.
> 
> ..Is what he forgot to add..
> 
> Just messing, metalheads! I think you're sexy..


This, I like this. Classical music elitists dismiss metal&conflate it with pop, so then extreme metalheads turn around and do the same thing to pop, trying to differentiate themselves from it. It's a way of saying to classical music fans "Hey! We scoff and discriminate just as much as you do, so therefore we are you!" metalheads think if they adopt the elitist attitude, then the music they like will automatically be on par with/equal to classical. That makes about as much sense as putting on a monocle and thinking you're automatically an old balding British man because of it. It's not an example worth emulating. Music is a beautiful thing that ugly people attach themselves to parasitically, they drain the beauty out of it and use it as confirmation of their own superiority, they use it for social status/a way to fit in, as a bludgeon, etc. Classical music folks are the ugliest of the ugly.


----------



## Deesnuts

Originally Posted by Bach 
It all sounds the same to me. Meshuggah, Opeth, Slipknot, Slayer.. doesn't matter. They're all geeky satanists and their music sounds like sped up computerised noise with foul vocals and laughable subject matters.


Full blown, pants-on-head retarded, yo.


----------



## SixFootScowl

I like metal. Just don't like the message from most bands. This band I like a lot.


----------



## Metalkitsune

What is with gangstas and wannabe gangstas listening to rap music?


----------



## Merl

I listen to predominantly instrumental post-rock and post-metal (and have done for 20 years) if im not listening to orchestral music. If you cant bear metal vocals try bands such as Pelican or Russian Circles. Btw, both bands are terrific live. Here's a few tasters.


----------



## stone

I used to be an avid metal listener when I was younger (Deicide, Morbid Angel, Suffocation, Incantation et al). The appeal was the raw and visceral quality, kind of like the musical equivalent of films such as _The Texas Chainsaw Massacre_ or _The Last House on the Left_. You know it's not going to receive any critical acclaim but it's uncompromisingly violent.


----------



## Metalkitsune




----------



## Bwv 1080

New Sunn o))) in a couple of weeks - with pipe organ


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## Kjetil Heggelund

I needed to rebel against my classical guitar...


----------



## Metalkitsune

Conservationist said:


> Well, if it's not your culture -- subject matter and vocals being two things you mentioned -- you'll be biased against it and end up hating it. However, I highly recommend avoiding:
> 
> 1. Meshuggah -- completely overrated simplistic rhythm music.
> 2. Opeth -- fake prog rock, completely incoherent.
> 3. Slipknot -- this is nu-metal. Avoid all nu-metal.
> 4. Slayer, after "South of Heaven" -- that was their last good album
> 
> Feast your eyes on some soulful AND INTERESTING metal WITHOUT SATANIC CONTENT like Demilich, Atheist, first album Cynic, Pestilence, etc.
> 
> For the record, the Satanic stuff is a subset of the occult fascination of Western Romantics, and is generally used metaphorically as in Blake and Milton, both devout theists.
> 
> If you are going to approach metal, it makes sense to listen to the stuff that's off the beaten path and not that which the MTV/Hot Topic crowd tends to like. Counterintuitive perhaps but it's worked for me.


The best metal to get people into metal imho is power metal. Sure most of it is dungeons and dragons or lord of the rings lyrics and the singers sound like medieval bards. But it is said to be one of the types of metal to get people not into metal into.


----------



## Guest

Infant Annihilator cranks up the intensity knob several notches. Most of their songs have obscene or disturbing titles, and their lyrics are beyond gross. However, they are amazing musicians. Here is their drummer playing through one of their songs without vocals. I'm just posting a link due to the title of the song.


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

Nice and brutal! Have you heard this one? It's kind of prog'y in a black metal way.


----------



## Guest

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Nice and brutal! Have you heard this one? It's kind of prog'y in a black metal way.
> View attachment 113255


I'm not a fan of Black Metal. I like more technical music.


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

Kontrapunctus said:


> I'm not a fan of Black Metal. I like more technical music.


Did you listen to the whole album? The vocals are awesome and almost scary! I learned that it's the new guitar player "Teloch" (from Nidingr) that wrote the whole album. A student told me he doesn't want to learn any music theory. I didn't like black metal until recently and I think this album is really impressive and creative, even a bit technical. Worth a listen!


----------



## Guest

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Did you listen to the whole album? The vocals are awesome and almost scary! I learned that it's the new guitar player "Teloch" (from Nidingr) that wrote the whole album. A student told me he doesn't want to learn any music theory. I didn't like black metal until recently and I think this album is really impressive and creative, even a bit technical. Worth a listen!


No. Once I close my mind to something, it's usually welded shut!


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

Kontrapunctus said:


> No. Once I close my mind to something, it's usually welded shut!


That's alright  Wait, it's not black metal... :devil:


----------



## Guest

What message is black metal or heavy metal trying to convey?


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

poco a poco said:


> What message is black metal or heavy metal trying to convey?


Nothing particular and I don't mind that


----------



## Boychev

poco a poco said:


> What message is black metal or heavy metal trying to convey?


It's supposed to evoke adventure, struggle, nature, mystical forces, danger, awe, self-destructive passion, vital energy.

To illustrate my point:
Diamond Head - The Prince
Dissection - Black Horizons
Satan - My Own God
Emperor - I Am the Black Wizards
Iron Maiden - Revelations


----------



## Bwv 1080

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Nice and brutal! Have you heard this one? It's kind of prog'y in a black metal way.
> View attachment 113255


 its quite good, but did not recognize it was Atilla singing, he is quite restrained on this album


----------



## Eva Yojimbo

poco a poco said:


> What message is black metal or heavy metal trying to convey?


Depends on the band. The first-wave black metal bands were mostly theatrical/horror-movie stuff (Mercyful Fate, King Diamond) and wars/history/occult (Bathory). The second-wave black metal bands originated in Norway and were very, very anti-Christian and often pro-Satanism; but that had as much to do with Norway's contentious relationship with Christianity going back to the Vikings. Many of the 2nd-wave bands were serious enough that they burned down churches. There were cases of murder, cannibalism, and other really sick stuff. Outside of Emperor and Immortal, I don't care for any of the other 2nd wave BM bands. BM after the 2nd wave is more varied. A band like Wolves in the Throne Room are all about environmentalism and mysticism. There's no one theme uniting post-2nd wave black metal.

As for heavy metal in general, lyrics are all over the place. I really appreciate that a band like Iron Maiden have written about subjects that are rarely seen in popular music, like history, literature, and film. Meanwhile, an alternative metal band like Tool are often highly philosophical/spiritual. Megadeth are often quite political.


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

Cannibalism please...


----------



## Bwv 1080

Eva Yojimbo said:


> The second-wave black metal bands originated in Norway and were very, very anti-Christian and often pro-Satanism; but that had as much to do with Norway's contentious relationship with Christianity going back to the Vikings. Many of the 2nd-wave bands were serious enough that they burned down churches. There were cases of murder, cannibalism, and other really sick stuff.


Yes, the Norwegian Black Metal bands were bad, but not nearly as scummy as, say, some of the British early music conductors like Robert King or Phillip Picket.


----------



## Red Terror

poco a poco said:


> What message is black metal or heavy metal trying to convey?


When it comes to metal you shouldn't worry about the message ... because it's all stupid.


----------



## Bwv 1080

poco a poco said:


> What message is black metal or heavy metal trying to convey?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expressionism


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

One of my favorite things! Try the first 16 minutes


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

New one from Children of Bodom is something I always listen to. Sounds good!


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

Goodnight song here! Some 17 year olds at the high-school I work at, auditioned for the spring project with this song. Theme is the moon landing 50th anniversary. Hope they make it to the show 26th of March. \m/


----------



## Eva Yojimbo

Anyone here familiar with a band called Ulcerate? They're pretty much the best death metal band I've found in the past 10 years, and I dare say most interesting metal band, period. What they're doing with these swirling maelstroms of dissonance is fascinating, and their drummer, Jamie Saint Merat, is a beast. Only thing I don't like about them is the vocalist; his death growl is pretty boring and just fades into the background: 





Certainly a heavy influence from Gorguts and Immolation, but still a pretty unique sound.


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

Album out today! Pretty unusual and exiting stuff


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

I preordered this after some great singles. It didn't arrive yet. My birthday is on tuesday...I couldn't wait, so I found it on spotify.


----------



## Common Listener

I gather from the OP that all metal is on-topic here and, when it comes to metal, I'm mostly a thrash guy, so I'm just going to post this track. It's like this song is a car roaring down the highway and you and the band are both hanging on to the hood with your fingernails.

Condor - "83 Days of Radiation"


----------



## Jacck

Mork - I Flammens Favn (with Det Svarte Juv)


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

Just pre-ordered this! Norwegian black metal titans 1349 have returned with their long awaited seventh full-length, 'The Infernal Pathway'. The album promises a journey through chaos and madness, darkness and peril, terror and annihilation.


----------



## Flutter

New album's been out two days and it's surprisingly a solid release, the last album was **** but this one definitely shows them starting to (slowly) move in a new direction.


----------



## Eva Yojimbo

Flutter said:


> New album's been out two days and it's surprisingly a solid release, the last album was **** but this one definitely shows them starting to (slowly) move in a new direction.


*Calls Stairway to Heaven and Paranoid "toilet paper music" and derides Zep and Sabbath's commercial side*
*Promotes latest Slipknot album*

Hmmm...


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

Slipknot has become pop music...


----------



## Bwv 1080

The new Nightfell is good, not quite up to the last album


----------



## Bwv 1080

Also the new Darkthrone


----------



## Eva Yojimbo

^ Darkthrone is a band I lump in with Burzum and Mayhem where I simply don't get the appeal at all. They remind me much of many of the punk/hardcore bands where the entire point seemed to be about how badly they could play their instruments and how ugly they could make the production because it was all about the "we don't give a funk" attitude. Some of these bands manage to evolve into decent songwriters (The Replacements spring first to mind), but that Darkthrone sounds much the same as everything else I've heard by them.


----------



## Bwv 1080

The newer Darkthrone to me is like Motorhead, same kind of raw appeal. 

The Atilla Mayhem albums are all brilliant, really different vibe with none of the typical raspy vocals over tremolo arpeggio black metal cliches

I love pre-convict Burzum. Don’t care for Varg’s later ambient stuff.


----------



## Eva Yojimbo

In terms of black metal, I can hear Motorhead in some of the first wave bands (Venom) and newer things like Abbath's black-and-roll stuff:




Motorhead were, at heart, a rock and roll band, despite the rawness, speed, loudness, etc.

As for the rest, we'll just agree to disagree. For black metal, I love Emperor, Immortal, Dissection and Weakling, I like (some) Enslaved and Deathspell Omega, and that's about it.


----------



## Bwv 1080

Another good 2019 release


----------



## starthrower

I am a very occasional metal listener. I bought this one yesterday. Did they really have "hits". Anyway, a good set for 4 dollars.


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

This one of the rawest and most brutal songs! Pretty awesome. Nice to hear as a reaction to correcting tests in music history...blah!


----------



## Merl

starthrower said:


> I am a very occasional metal listener. I bought this one yesterday. Did they really have "hits". Anyway, a good set for 4 dollars.


They're hits in my mind. Peace Sells, Hangar 18, Sweating Bullets, A tout le monde, Symphony of Destruction..... Classics!


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

New Mayhem song before I go to bed. They have release 2 singles now before new album in a month. None more black?


----------



## Eva Yojimbo

starthrower said:


> I am a very occasional metal listener. I bought this one yesterday. Did they really have "hits". Anyway, a good set for 4 dollars.


If you're defining "hits" as singles that scored high on Billboard, then only their Symphony of Destruction cracked the top 100 (#71). If you mean "hits" as in "any fan of metal would know these songs," then a definitive "yes, and many." Holy Wars is frequently cited as one of the 2-3 best metal songs ever written. It's fun (but challenging!) as hell to play, too.


----------



## starthrower

Megadeth's vocals are kinda "punk kid" sounding but they have some cool riffs. I didn't look at the credits to see which line-up was performing what songs. I also bought Marty Friedman's Wall Of Sound last year. My other albums are Sabbath's Heaven & Hell, and Strength In Numbers by 24-7 Spyz. That's it! But my wife has a bunch of metal albums. I actually bought her the new Devin Townsend CD, Empath. I can't listen to it. Something about the sound makes my ears hurt. It's more of a pressure thing due to the accentuated frequency ranges they prefer. And he uses too much reverb. It's ridiculous.


----------



## Eva Yojimbo

^ At best, Mustaine's vocals can have a nice snarl that fits well with whatever he's, errr, snarling about. It fits best when he's being sarcastic/ironic or ranting about politics. His problem is when he tries to go higher and do more melodic stuff and it tends just sound really nasally and whiny. Really, Megadeth is mostly enjoyed for the phenomenal musicianship and superb riffs, solos, creative structures and rhythmic modulations. I've obliquely spoken before of my guitar playing "hitting walls," and one big wall was the Marty Friedman solos in Holy Wars:




Even the rhythm parts are pretty damn hard and I find if I go a while without playing them I almost have to start over learning that picking pattern of E:0-0-0-(rest)-A:7-9 E:0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-A:7-9 and take some time getting it up to speed cleanly. Luckily, Dave's solo is much easier (not easy, mind) and really fun.


----------



## starthrower

These kids are badass!


----------



## Eva Yojimbo

^ I saw them at a small local club a few weeks back; tickets were only $20. Really good show, really tight and exciting band. I think they have definite promise even if I'm not fully sold on them yet. Right now I hear too much imitation and not enough innovation, but I think they're coming along, especially if they start incorporating more outside genres as they've done in some of their newer material. Their older material like the above sounds like pretty standard djent/metalcore to my ear; well-played, but nothing I haven't heard by dozens of other bands.


----------



## starthrower

They are touring all over the states and Canada throughout October. I don't know enough about metal to identify their influences, but I could tell right away that they are great players. The drummer is phenomenal, and the bass and guitar lock with him so effortlessly that it makes for a superb group sound.


----------



## Texas Chain Saw Mazurka

starthrower said:


> I actually bought her the new Devin Townsend CD, Empath. I can't listen to it. Something about the sound makes my ears hurt. It's more of a pressure thing due to the accentuated frequency ranges they prefer. And he uses too much reverb. It's ridiculous.


I've not heard that one but I usually love the sound he gets on his albums.


----------



## Eva Yojimbo

starthrower said:


> They are touring all over the states and Canada throughout October. *I don't know enough about metal to identify their influences*, but I could tell right away that they are great players. The drummer is phenomenal, and the bass and guitar lock with him so effortlessly that it makes for a superb group sound.


For a quick history, metalcore is a combination of metal and hardcore punk. Around the turn of the century, metalcore bands started incorporating influences from European melodic death metal (Dark Tranquility, At the Gates, In Flames) and achieved some semblance of mainstream success. Perhaps Killswitch Engage was the most popular of those bands: 




(notice especially the mix of melodic "clean" vocals with hardcore "scream" vocals)

It's arguable as to whether "djent" is a genre; it's actually an onomatopoeia for the sound you get when doing palm-muted riffs on an 8-string or downtuned 7-string guitars. It was entirely invented by the band Meshuggah. Their tight, extremely technical, even mathematical, riffing/drumming has been massively influential (it could be argued their the most influential metal band of the last 30 years):





So if you take the technicality/complexity of the latter and mix it with the melodic and more "streamlined" aspects of the former, you get something close to Jinjer. They also incorporate some other, more prog rock/metal inspired influences, like the intro/verses in Pisces. I do agree they're all great players, but metal is a genre flooded with phenomenal drummers, eg, and as good as all three(!) of Jinjer's drummers are/were (I prefer their newest; he brings a greater jazz sensibility to them), I wouldn't put any of them up there with the likes of Tomas Haake, Danny Carey, Jaime Saint Merat, George Kollias, Mike Portnoy, Mike Mangini, Gene Hoglan, Mario Duplantier, etc. At least, not yet.


----------



## starthrower

I prefer the Meshuggah. I like a drummer with some finesse. Not into the speed/power thing, or the overbearing double kick drum assault many bands prefer.


----------



## Eva Yojimbo

starthrower said:


> I prefer the Meshuggah. I like a drummer with some finesse. Not into the speed/power thing, or the overbearing double kick drum assault many bands prefer.


I prefer the Meshuggah myself, but that was mostly just an illustration of what I feel are Jinjer's two biggest influences. I also prefer drummers with finesse, but I feel like all those drummers I listed qualify, with perhaps the exception of Kollias. I also think you can have both speed/power and finesse. A drummer like Jaime Saint Merat can be ridiculously fast but I find his cymbal work both tasty and tasteful:





Funny you should mention overbearing double kick drum assaults, as perhaps the most infamous song in that regard is Meshuggah's Bleed. Supposedly it took Haake months to get the herta kick pattern down and it's been infamous among drummers since its release because of the speed and stamina required to play it.


----------



## starthrower

Honestly, I don't understand how these drummers make it through a tour playing this brutal stuff? I can't make it through one CD as a listener. My tolerance is 3-4 tracks.


----------



## Eva Yojimbo

starthrower said:


> Honestly, I don't understand how these drummers make it through a tour playing this brutal stuff? I can't make it through one CD as a listener. My tolerance is 3-4 tracks.


I can't speak for others, but at least for me I've listened to so much of this stuff over the last ~18 years that I don't even hear it as "brutal" any more. I've actually fallen to sleep listening to Meshuggah, eg. I know some black metal fans who find the atmosphere of the genre soothing like ASMR. It's a strange phenomenon, but I think prolongued exposure to anything probably dampens its visceral effects and what's left is the music.


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

BUMP! It's the end of another year. Which albums did you listen to the most from 2019? Some I remember best are the albums by Vltimas, Possessed, Cult of Luna, 1349, Mayhem...


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

I'm now hearing Blood Incantation for the 2nd time. This is pretty grand and otherworldly! Love it


----------



## Red Terror

Eva Yojimbo said:


> I can't speak for others, but at least for me I've listened to so much of this stuff over the last ~18 years that I don't even hear it as "brutal" any more. I've actually fallen to sleep listening to Meshuggah, eg. I know some black metal fans who find the atmosphere of the genre soothing like ASMR. It's a strange phenomenon, but I think prolongued exposure to anything probably dampens its visceral effects and what's left is the music.


Yeah, Meshuggah has that effect on me as well. It all sounds the same.


----------



## Red Terror

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> I'm now hearing Blood Incantation for the 2nd time. This is pretty grand and otherworldly! Love it


Best tech death release of the year I reckon.


----------



## haiduk

melodic black / death

Haiduk


----------



## Jack Keck

Contrapunctus666 said:


> "I fail to understand metal, therefore it sucks."


The fact that this subforum is administered by someone named Krummhorn tells me metal doesn't suck and that if I don't understand it, MAYBE I SHOULD LISTEN TO MORE OF IT! I say this because my favorite classical music is medieval music. I figure that someone named Krummhorn must also appreciate medieval music. If someone who appreciates medieval music also likes metal, metal deserves to be taken seriously! Therefore, I can relate to the first part of this quote, but the second part indicates closed-mindedness which does nobody any good.


----------



## Metalkitsune

Jack Keck said:


> The fact that this subforum is administered by someone named Krummhorn tells me metal doesn't suck and that if I don't understand it, MAYBE I SHOULD LISTEN TO MORE OF IT! I say this because my favorite classical music is medieval music. I figure that someone named Krummhorn must also appreciate medieval music. If someone who appreciates medieval music also likes metal, metal deserves to be taken seriously! Therefore, I can relate to the first part of this quote, but the second part indicates closed-mindedness which does nobody any good.


I think it's because some when they see or hear metal mentioned, think of Nu-metal,death metal or black metal.

When metal is more varied.

Not all metal bands scream or do cookie monster vocals.

That is like saying all rap music is about slinging drugs,hoes,busting a cap in someone in a drive by and using the N word repeatedly.

Every music style has different genres.

There are various sub genres of metal, including one that has cheerful sing along melodies that is very popular in Europe,but not too popular in the United States and has fantasy based lyrics.

Power metal is best described as lord of the rings or dungeons and dragons nerds playing heavy metal.


----------



## Metalkitsune

And one of the reasons i heard why most don't like metal is that they "don't understand what they are saying".

Really? Gangnam style is in another language,Korean and it got really popular.

And since this is a classical music site, Die Walküre is in another language, but people seem to enjoy it at operas.


----------



## HoDiadochus

Chalk me up as another classical fan who loves metal. Something downright similar about the heaviness of certain classical works (Mahler, Wagner, or especially maybe Bruckner), and metal. It's been remarked plenty of times, and it's true! It would be odd, certainly, for a fan of opera or vocal works in foreign languages to scoff at death metal because the lyrics are unintelligible! I have often thought to myself that thick and strange voices in opera, like Hans Hotter for instance, are appealing to me because they sound "distorted" in timbre, as are vocals in extreme metal (I know it's not exactly the same, but there's definitely something similar there!).

I'm a big fan of old-school trad metal, especially USPM. But I like all types, including death and black metal. Throw on some USPM like Helstar, Virgin Steele, or Manilla Road, and I immediately jump up out of my seat.

Recently been listening to stuff like this: Cauldron Born - Born of the Cauldron





I'm extremely happy to find a good number of metal fans on here, I must say!


----------



## Metalkitsune




----------



## Jacck

Metalkitsune said:


> And one of the reasons i heard why most don't like metal is that they "don't understand what they are saying".
> 
> Really? Gangnam style is in another language,Korean and it got really popular.
> 
> And since this is a classical music site, Die Walküre is in another language, but people seem to enjoy it at operas.


i have the oposite problem. I unfortunately do understand what they are singing, and I find some of these bands extremely infantile and comical, especially if they dress like clowns and sing about death, rape, torture, maiming, corpses and maggots and generally want to be "shocking". They are not shocking, just childish.


----------



## Metalkitsune

Jacck said:


> i have the oposite problem. I unfortunately do understand what they are singing, and I find some of these bands extremely infantile and comical, especially if they dress like clowns and sing about death, rape, torture, maiming, corpses and maggots and generally want to be "shocking". They are not shocking, just childish.


Dude, not all metal is like that.

There is metal influenced by fantasy like lord of the rings or the hobbit.

Saying all metal is about death,torture,maiming,corpses,rape,and maggots is like saying all rap is about being a vicious gangsta and having a AK-47/shotgun in one hand for drivebys and a 40 oz liquor in another and beating women and slinging drugs.

There is even a rap song about which side to wear gang colors on,no i'm not joking.

And people feel metal to be a bad influence?

Plus the whole thing of kids dressing up like gangstas and throwing up gang signs.

I don't know why no one is up in arms about rap music.


----------



## Metalkitsune

Plus Judas Priest never sang about that in some of their songs.


----------



## Jacck

Metalkitsune said:


> Plus Judas Priest never sang about that in some of their songs.


I am familiar with some metal and like some of it. I just wanted to say, that nobody listens to metal for the lyrics. I like Judas Priest too


----------



## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern

Jacck said:


> I am familiar with some metal and like some of it. I just wanted to say, that nobody listens to metal for the lyrics. I like Judas Priest too


I think lyrics impart a cool effect, but yeah no one is looking for any kind of profound literary meaning in the lyrics (most of them, at least, a ton of songs can be very poetic, but I also don't really listen to music for the lyrics anyway). "Whiskey woman don'tya know that YOU are driiiiiving me INSAAAAAAAAAAAAAANEEEE!" is a banger of a line. I don't really care much about the meaning behind it, if there's any there to begin with.

"Robot minds of robot slaves, lead to future in atomic graves" (Electric Funeral, Black Sabbath). Also pretty f*cking stupid when you think about it, but it sounds badass when Ozzy sings it.


----------



## Metalkitsune




----------



## Jacck

DEATH DECLINE - Useless Sacrifice


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

TOTAL DESTROY!!!


----------



## Metalkitsune




----------



## Metalkitsune




----------



## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern

Metaliskune, I don't mean this in a condescending way, but why do you post on a classical music forum but only talk about metal? You'd get way more responses and find far more like-minded people on countless other forums on the internet that are metal oriented. There's nothing wrong with you posting here, I'm just confused because you'll find way more overlap with your musical interests like...anywhere else on the internet but here.


----------



## Metalkitsune

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> Metaliskune, I don't mean this in a condescending way, but why do you post on a classical music forum but only talk about metal? You'd get way more responses and find far more like-minded people on countless other forums on the internet that are metal oriented. There's nothing wrong with you posting here, I'm just confused because you'll find way more overlap with your musical interests like...anywhere else on the internet but here.


Watashi wa baka desu?

I am a idiot?


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

Here are some great albums I've listened to the last year. Mayhem, 1349, Blood Incantation & Cattle Decapitation. I'm glad you post about metal! I'm a part-time metalhead, but most of my listening is classical of all genres and styles. Rock on! \m/


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

Forgot about Satyricon, Sepultura and Watain! Satyricon latest album is really good!


----------



## Jacck

Sodom - Agent Orange


----------



## Open Lane

I am currently listening to Napalm Death's "harmony corruption." Love it!


----------



## Open Lane

Hell yes, the latest cattle decapitation is killer!!


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

Hey Open Lane! Since you like nice extreme music, you'll probably enjoy the new album from Mitch Harris of ND.


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

Listen to Barney!


----------



## Jacck

Mors Principum Est - A Day for Redemption


----------



## cwarchc

That didn't work?


----------



## cwarchc




----------



## Jacck

Sigh - Homo Homini Lupus


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

Where did all the metalheads go?
Long time passing
Where did all the metalheads go?
Long time ago
Where did all the metalheads go?
Talking classic everyone
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?


----------



## Jacck

NATTVERD Naar Taaken Fortaerer Alt





nic growling


----------



## starthrower

My wife bought some metal albums yesterday.

Iron Maiden: Live in Mexico City 2019
Jinger: Alive In Melbourne
Burning Witches: Dance With The Devil


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

I recently discovered Jinjer, pretty cool band! Now I'm listening to Archgoat, they seem frightening...


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

I was a bit frightened by the sound of Archgoat yesterday, but just saw part of an interview with the vocalist with beer-tasting...I love beer! Man!
...I am a satanist...Help me God...but I love beer...LOVE YOU MAN! See: love is the way!


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

"Stay out of black metal".


----------



## SanAntone

Bach said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_popular_music_genres


I appreciate this post since it defines Popular music as widely as possible, but makes determinations regarding music which is not Classical, but also not "Pop."

I know nothing about Metal other than some people whose opinion I respect are fans. So, I will probably read some of this thread and might even listen to some of the music.

Thanks for giving it a bump.


----------



## SanAntone

I will offer this bit of news since it is about a Metal band album (Metallica,/Black), but reinterpreted by non-Metal /musicians/bands (just released).

Metallica Flips the Cover Album Script With Renditions from Isbell, Stapleton, and More








> In celebration of the 30th anniversary of their most commercially successful album (and one of the most commercially successful albums in music history), Metallica - better known as The Black Album - the band decided to turn the tables and invite a wide range of artists to share covers of Metallica tunes. The result is The Metallica Blacklist, a massive set that covers four CDs and seven LPs and features 53 artists sharing their takes on their favorite tracks from The Black Album. On top of it being a one-of-a-kind listening experience, this compilation is also doing good in the world; as the band describes, "All profits from every track on The Metallica Blacklist will benefit Metallica's charitable foundation, All Within My Hands, along with a charity of each artist's choice."
> 
> For fans of heavier music, there are a number of guests on Blacklist that bring the heat, like IDLES, OFF!, Corey Taylor, Ghost, and Volbeat. But the true magic of this huge compilation comes from artists you've rarely associated with Metallica.


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

Being a bit nostalgic here.


----------



## SixFootScowl




----------



## HenryPenfold




----------



## FrankE

I quite like some metal the big 4, some (I'm told) black metal and on the softer side Sabaton but I'm not really up on the genres.
With Black metal I'm a bit wary of taking a wrong turn and buying NSBM.
I'm listening to Beherit Engram LP winding down from some classical listening. They had an electronically-produced album I love not sure what genre it is, sounds like Dark Soho but more metal.


----------



## ZJovicic

A band from Japan with an interesting name:


----------



## Bwv 1080

FrankE said:


> I quite like some metal the big 4, some (I'm told) black metal and on the softer side Sabaton but I'm not really up on the genres.
> With Black metal I'm a bit wary of taking a wrong turn and buying NSBM.
> I'm listening to Beherit Engram LP winding down from some classical listening. They had an electronically-produced album I love not sure what genre it is, sounds like Dark Soho but more metal.


Try Enslaved or Mayhem

otherwise be careful of this

https://thehardtimes.net/music/satanic-messages-found-when-black-metal-played-forwards/


----------



## Bwv 1080

The new Carcass is good


----------



## Bwv 1080

Gotta love the song title


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

Yes! Heard the new Carcass on Friday \m/


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

One of my new discoveries in recent years \m/


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

Saw these guys live some years ago. Think you can call them black n roll.


----------



## hawgdriver

I love metal. My favs

Ulver
Agalloch
Gallowbraid
Wolves in the Throne Room
Fen
Alcest
Burzum
Blood Incantation
A Forest of Stars


----------



## Merl

hawgdriver said:


> I love metal. My favs
> 
> Ulver
> Agalloch
> Gallowbraid
> Wolves in the Throne Room
> Fen
> Alcest
> Burzum
> Blood Incantation
> A Forest of Stars


Ive always enjoyed Agalloch and Alcest, hawgdriver. I saw Alcest supporting Mono some years back and they were superb. Their particular type of post-metal is really enjoyable. 'Les Voyages de l'âme' is a great album (as is Agalloch's 'Mantle').


----------



## pianozach

I don't listen to "Metal" much, but there were some bands I DID listen to in my teens that were considered to be "Heavy Metal" at the time.

Uriah Heep
Iron Butterfly
Steppenwolf
Led Zeppelin, 
Black Sabbath, and 
Deep Purple

The "Heavy Metal" these bands played would barely be recognized as "Metal" these days, as it has evolved considerably into a far more specific type of Rock genre. Nowadays that music would likely be classified as mere "Hard Rock" I guess.


----------



## SixFootScowl

pianozach said:


> I don't listen to "Metal" much, but there were some bands I DID listen to in my teens that were considered to be "Heavy Metal" at the time.
> 
> Uriah Heep
> Iron Butterfly
> Steppenwolf
> Led Zeppelin,
> Black Sabbath, and
> Deep Purple
> 
> The "Heavy Metal" these bands played would barely be recognized as "Metal" these days, as it has evolved considerably into a far more specific type of Rock genre. Nowadays that music would likely be classified as mere "Hard Rock" I guess.


Back in the day (my high school days in the early 1970s) when I listened to most of what you listed, it was considered hard rock. I don't think I heard the term metal in those days. Even today I don't really consider those bands metal so much as hard rock. Van Halen, perhaps metal. Ted Nugent was chainsaw rock. I love Ted's riffs but generally don't care for the sleazy content of some of his songs.

Wonder what was the first band to be labeled metal?

Of course Steppenwolf sang about heavy metal thunder.


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

Climb aboard the crazy train!


----------



## haiduk

The new Haiduk album _Diabolica_ [2021]


----------



## pianozach

SixFootScowl said:


> Back in the day (my high school days in the early 1970s) when I listened to most of what you listed, it was considered hard rock. I don't think I heard the term metal in those days. Even today I don't really consider those bands metal so much as hard rock. Van Halen, perhaps metal. Ted Nugent was chainsaw rock. I love Ted's riffs but generally don't care for the sleazy content of some of his songs.
> 
> Wonder what was the first band to be labeled metal?
> 
> Of course Steppenwolf sang about heavy metal thunder.


And bands like *Iron Butterfly* and *Led Zeppelin* actually had a type of metal in their band name.

Oh, there was also *Black Sabbath* (I actually enjoyed *Paranoid*), *Cream, Jimi Hendrix Experience* (I still love *Electric Ladyland*), *Deep Purple*, *Blue Öyster Cult*, and *Vanilla Fudge*.

All considered pioneers in developing *"Heavy Metal"*.


----------



## Metalkitsune

SixFootScowl said:


> Back in the day (my high school days in the early 1970s) when I listened to most of what you listed, it was considered hard rock. I don't think I heard the term metal in those days. Even today I don't really consider those bands metal so much as hard rock. Van Halen, perhaps metal. Ted Nugent was chainsaw rock. I love Ted's riffs but generally don't care for the sleazy content of some of his songs.
> 
> Wonder what was the first band to be labeled metal?
> 
> Of course Steppenwolf sang about heavy metal thunder.


Seems when i was growing up, stuff like Def Leppard,Metallica, Bon Jovi were considered heavy metal.

But seems now, metal means stuff with growled vocals.


----------



## Eva Yojimbo

Metalkitsune said:


> Seems when i was growing up, stuff like Def Leppard,Metallica, Bon Jovi were considered heavy metal.
> 
> But seems now, metal means stuff with growled vocals.


It's all metal, just different sub-genres, and many of the more ardent fans of the extreme (and more niche) sub-genres are often very elitist when it comes to the more mainstream and popular genres, and will dismiss them as "not metal." Don't listen to them. Metal begins with Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple, develops with Judas Priest, Motorhead, and Iron Maiden, again with Metallica and the other early thrash bands, and then splits off into a lot of different sub-genres (black, death) depending on what artists the later bands were most influenced by. Bands like Bon Jovi are more iffy, mostly because the "hair metal" bands mostly came from the influence of Van Halen. If you consider Van Halen metal then I guess Bon Jovi and their ilk would be too, but it's metal with a different lineage than the other bands listed above.


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

New album by Midnight is pretty cool!


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

Kind of boring that nobody cares for metal. Well, I will put on new Dark Funeral and drink beer \m/


----------



## Metalkitsune

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Kind of boring that nobody cares for metal. Well, I will put on new Dark Funeral and drink beer \m/


I think most have moved on from metal and are listening to songs like WAP,which has dirty lyrics. Yet people find metal music bad, yet turn a blind eye towards the dirty obscene lyrics of rap music.

Like i read about some Karens who wanted a teacher who shared about Iron Maiden on their social media sacked, but i feel they turn a blind eye towards the lyrics of songs like Cardi B's WAP which has dirty lyrics.

https://www.loudersound.com/news/pa...ncipal-is-sacked-over-her-satanic-allegiances


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

Dirty lyrics? What is WAP?


----------



## Metalkitsune

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Dirty lyrics? What is WAP?


A rap song.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WAP_(song)


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

NO NO NO! Metal-heads like metal \m/


----------



## Metalkitsune

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> NO NO NO! Metal-heads like metal \m/


Yup, me too.

I mean in the United States, seems many forgot about heavy metal and i also noticed that stuff like Hair metal which was popular during the 80's is now treated like it was a bad dream.


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

I never thought metal was forgotten, all the new albums are proof of that. The US has some great metal kings  Maybe we are outnumbered by evil Beliebers...


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

Ukranian band here.


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund




----------



## Metalkitsune

I remember hearing this song on the radio i think it was in the early 80s or so and people were like WTH is this?






Then Queensryche released empire and became a brand name overnight.


----------



## Metalkitsune

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> I never thought metal was forgotten, all the new albums are proof of that. The US has some great metal kings  Maybe we are outnumbered by evil Beliebers...


I think it's people in the mainstream.

Every mainstream song has these chords in the songs,of course they just reverse the order of the chords.

C G F Am E

I would like the mainstream to wake up and realize that every song they listen to that is on the top 40 is using the same chords and most songs are not even written by the people in the band.


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

So I discovered Bolt Thrower!


----------



## Ludwig Schon

Given the days that’s in it…


----------



## haiduk

melodic black metal - Haiduk


----------



## SanAntone

*WHEEL - Resident Human *(2021)


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

New album by Nordjevel is hypnotically scary and awesome \m/


----------



## KlassikerDronning

Metalheadwholovesclasical said:


> First, no troll posting on how heavy metal sucks or is pop music or whatnot. The only posts I want to see in this thread are about metal and from people who enjoy it, with news on metal, sharing metal tastes, and overall positive metal discussion. No posting on how it sucks and is not music or is related to Pop music please. Thank you.
> 
> To get the thread started, Doom Metal recently has gotten my attention more than other metal genres recently. Ahab, Candlemass, and Mirror of Deception I have been enjoying alot.
> 
> Ahab- Below the Sun
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mirror Of Deception-Ghost
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Candlemass-Demon's Gate
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also to add, Peste Noire, a black metal band from France has recently released a new album. They have taken a much slower pace on this one, but it is a very good album. Has anyone else heard it yet?



I don't believe anyone with any kind of musical knowledge would say metal "sucks" by any means!
I mean metal has classical influences and actually work quite well together. 

And Candlemass RULES. They are my favourite goth metal band.

My top 5 metal bands are in no particular order:
Exodus
Venom
Rainbow
Mayhem
Slayer

I also got into meral with black Sabbath, Judas priest, and of course Iron Maiden.

🤟🏻🤙🏻🎼🎶🎵🎻🎹


----------



## SanAntone

*Megadeth, The Sick, the Dying … and the Dead!*

The last time Megadeth made an album, with 2016's Dystopia, there was a conscious effort to return to the band's mid-'80s and early-'90s heyday. The Sick, the Dying ... and the Dead! doesn't stray far from that entry point; it's close enough to milestone works like Peace Sells ... but Who's Buying? and Rust in Peace to satisfy old fans. There are few concessions to modern-day genre conventions, as Mustaine and company forge forward while trying not to repeat themselves.

It's a half-successful update. There's no shortage of lightning-fast riffs and chest-heaving thrash on The Sick, the Dying ... and the Dead! The album's bookends of the title song and "We'll Be Back" are among the most vicious tracks Megadeth has released in years, but the nearly hourlong length and occasional sameness in the music can be wearying at times. Plus, the political vagueness of the lyrics is frustrating for anyone searching for something deeper. (Ultimate Classic Rock)


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

SanAntone said:


> *Megadeth, The Sick, the Dying … and the Dead!*
> 
> The last time Megadeth made an album, with 2016's Dystopia, there was a conscious effort to return to the band's mid-'80s and early-'90s heyday. The Sick, the Dying ... and the Dead! doesn't stray far from that entry point; it's close enough to milestone works like Peace Sells ... but Who's Buying? and Rust in Peace to satisfy old fans. There are few concessions to modern-day genre conventions, as Mustaine and company forge forward while trying not to repeat themselves.
> 
> It's a half-successful update. There's no shortage of lightning-fast riffs and chest-heaving thrash on The Sick, the Dying ... and the Dead! The album's bookends of the title song and "We'll Be Back" are among the most vicious tracks Megadeth has released in years, but the nearly hourlong length and occasional sameness in the music can be wearying at times. Plus, the political vagueness of the lyrics is frustrating for anyone searching for something deeper. (Ultimate Classic Rock)


I kind of forgot about the new one from Megadeth since Machine Head also has a new killer album \m/ (they have "beer-cam" on facebook)


----------



## SanAntone

*Goatwhore · Louis Benjamin Falgoust · Sammy Duet
Angels Hung from the Arches of Heaven*


----------



## SanAntone

*Charlotte Wessels - TOXIC* - Official Lyric Video

Charlotte Wessels has become a veteran of the lockdown record. The feat of writing a song a month for the past two years has certainly done wonders to sharpen the ex-Delain frontwoman’s skills. Much like the first _Tales From Six Feet Under_ – a compilation of a year’s worth of these self-produced tracks – Vol II is an accomplished and eclectic exercise in song- writing.

Experimenting with genres, she has a knack for gorgeous, poppy earworms like The Final Roadtrip, while Human To Ruin and The Phantom Touch are full-blown metal and showcase a more powerful side to Charlotte’s sweet voice. On the sharp-tongued Toxic she takes a less-is-more approach to instrumentation to create heaviness in new ways, and it’s excellent. All that’s missing is a real live band and instruments to do her songs justice.


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## SanAntone

*King Buffalo* – _The Burden of Restlessness_ (2021)

Genius takes time, as the idiom goes, and though there’s certainly been genius albums scratched out in a hurry and turds that baked for decades, it seems to hold up in a general sort of way. Now New York stoner trio *King Buffalo* has decided to release three albums in the span of a year, while immediate predecessor _Dead Star_ is but a year old. The gorgeous album art for the first of the hat-trick only assuages my fears a small amount. Is _The Burden of Restlessness_ rushed? Does it drag?

Neither. Instead, King Buffalo plays exactly the tempo it intended. The pandemic seems to have had a two-fold effect on vocalist/guitarist *Sean McVay*, bassist *Dan Reynolds* and drummer *Scott Donaldson*. It has given them a lot of inspiration for new material, and it has given them the time to fully develop it. The result, _The Burden of Restlessness_, is truly an album of its time, painting pictures of a seemingly endless period spent indoors, staring at the walls while sanity slowly flakes away. (*angry metal guy*)


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## SanAntone

_Where the Shadows Adorn_ radiates with a sincere ache of moments and people lost to death and time, with the opening title track mournfully setting the mood with *Brandon Howe*’s haunting keyboard melody before guitarists *Chris Morrison* and *Ben Sandman* channel their love of all things _Paradise Lost_ and _Katatonia_ simultaneously to great effect. Throughout the album’s eight tracks, *Mother of Graves* pay respects to their elders while showing what can be done to progress a well-loved sound. 

Album highlight “Tears Like Wine” displays the strongest evidence of the band’s strengths, with Howe’s mammoth-yet-clear growls, beautiful melodies, and the catchiest of choruses found throughout _Where the Shadows Adorn_. (angry metal guy)


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## John O

Herzeleide said:


> Dear Krummhorn,
> 
> Since heavy metal is actually labelled popular music by every music dictionary, what precisely is _fair_ about willful disregard for the truth? (Apropos acquiescence to the purportedly 'fair' conditions of which you speak.)





Contrapunctus666 said:


> And you blindly trust them. Good job.


Popular Music is genus of music , the other genera being Folk and Classical.(This is the old top level classification)
popular music (with a small p) just means it is popular.
Pop music generally means something more specific. Sometimes used to distinguish music from rock and roll onwards from popular music before then, sometimes as implying something lighter than rock music , sometimes as a dismissive term.

No one would call "Daisy , Daisy" or Frank Sinatra pop music but they are definitely Popular Music.


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## SanAntone

*Anima Morte – “Seeds of Trepidation”*

With Halloween not far off, we offer a cinematic new track from Swedish horror flick-soundtrack enthusiasts, *Anima Morte*, perfectly suited for the season. The instrumental outfit—Fredrik Klingwall (keys), Daniel Cannerfelt (guitar), and Teddy Möller (drums)—are masters of creating mood and tension with their haunting, progressive compositions, utilizing strings and horns to augment their synth-heavy sound. “Seeds of Trepidation” is a slow builder that starts with subtle, nervous unease and gradually ascends to a blustery crescendo, like a late-October storm shaking tree limbs and scattering leaves. (*decibel*)


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## SanAntone

*Lacuna Coil | Comalies XX*

Lacuna Coil’s hybrid of goth, groove and alternative has thrust the Milan outfit towards the upper echelons of modern metal. Spearheaded by co-vocalists Cristina Scabbia and Andrea Ferro, the band had become synonymous with rich, haunting instrumentation by the early 00s as a result of two transfixing albums, In A Reverie and Unleashed Memories. But it was 2002’s Comalies that set a benchmark, not only for the band, but for gothic-tinged metal as a whole. And despite tapping into an immersive amalgam of past sounds and unexplored territories on subsequent releases, Lacuna Coil’s third album arguably remains their anthem-laden masterstroke to date.

The MO of Comalies XX is to revisit and revamp these songs two decades later. The most noticeable element of “deconstruction” comes in the stripping back of programming and synths. The lyrics on Swamped and quintessential belter Heaven’s A Lie are more discernible with key changes and additional vocal flourishes, extended guitar solos and Andrea’s growls packing a marked aggressiveness in their delivery.  (*louder/hammer*)


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## SanAntone

*Witch Fever*

A project in exorcising demons and turning trauma into something galvanizing and hot-blooded, the Manchester, England, four-piece — which includes vocalist *Amy Walpole*, guitarist *Alisha Yarwood*, bassist *Alex Thompson* and drummer *Annabelle Joyce* — split the difference between doom, post-punk, queercore and noise rock to create a blistering wall of sound with just enough hooks to ensnare those not typically tuned into heavy music. (revolver)


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## SanAntone

Newly "unsealed" following a hiatus taken at the end of their first decade as a band, *Babymetal* are offering a first taste of their forthcoming concept album _The Other One_, set for release on March 24, with the release of new single "Divine Attack - Shingeki ". 

Featuring, for the first time, lyrics written by *Su-Metal*, the song is apparently centered around the theme of 'Cavalry', this being one of 10 separate parallel worlds, we're told, that have been discovered as part of "The Other One restoration project." (metal hammer)


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## SanAntone

*Morbific – Squirm Beyond the Mortal Realm*

Finland’s Morbific returns with their second offering of music(?) in as many years, and it’s the sonic equivalent of a message written using scabs that have been arranged on the killing floor of an abandoned slaughterhouse. Here are ten tracks of caveman death metal that fetishize the pursuit of ugliness to a borderline-absurd degree; if you really want to understand what Morbific is up to, listen to _Squirm Beyond the Mortal Realm_ on a set of quality headphones so you can appreciate all the not-nuances on display. (source)






*The Otolith – Folium Limina*

The Otolith comprises former SubRosa members Sarah Pendleton, Kim Cordray, Andy Patterson and Levi Hanna, plus Visigoth bassist Matt Brotherton. And, it’s fair to say it more or less picks up where SubRosa left off. Singer and violinist Pendleton has said, for example, that the riffs for the epic “Sing no Coda” have been in the making for years, but it wasn’t until she had got through the turmoil of 2020 that she could start writing lyrics for it. Like their former project, The Otolith specialises in huge, avant-garde doom, with monolithic melancholy the order of the day. Sonorous, glacial riffs slide past and over each other like calving icebergs crashing into frozen seas as ghostly violins wend their way over the surface. The waters run deep and cold here, with the stunning 13-minute “Sing no Coda” opening the record and setting the bar sky high. Pendleton’s vocals are a haunting combination of soaring, almost-choral cleans (“Sing no Coda”); chanted, semi-ritualistic lines (“Ekpyrotic”); and deep, hoarse roars (“Hubris”). (source)


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## Bwv 1080

Crazy good tech death


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## Bwv 1080

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> View attachment 175548
> 
> New album by Nordjevel is hypnotically scary and awesome \m/


resisting the temptation to Google to see if they are Nazis or not, black metal sucks that way


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## SanAntone

Wasting no time since last year’s ‘_For Those That Wish To Exist_’ all-but incinerated the post-Covid cobwebs, Brighton’s *Architects* roar straight back into the fray with an impressive tenth LP – the frenetic ‘_The Classic Symptoms of a Broken Heart_’. Buoyed by the energy of getting back in the studio for in-the-flesh writing and recording, the Brighton five-piece’s new array of songs make for a fiery and relentless dish. It’s an album that solidly caps the canon of a band that has always quested to expand the language of 21st-century *metalcore*. Here, the incorporation of more prominent *electronic influences* bubble and contort under the headwinds of some deliciously *visceral guitar*. (continue reading)






Release date: October 21, 2022


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Bwv 1080 said:


> resisting the temptation to Google to see if they are Nazis or not, black metal sucks that way


Found this fun review by some guy...Nordjevel’s music is pretty standard, straight-forward generic black metal. Their performance was great, but they’re just another generic black metal band, with generic corpsepaint, generic outfits and generic lyrics about Norway, Satan, and how everyone must be killed. Nothing new under the (black) sun.


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## Bwv 1080

Gotta love the song names and album title


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## SanAntone

*††† (Crosses) - Vivien* (Official Music Video)






*Vulvodynia - Artificial Divinity* (Official Video)






*AVATAR - Dance Devil Dance* (Official Music Video)






*Show Me The Body - War Not Beef *(Official Audio)






*Polyphia - Bloodbath (feat. Chino Moreno)*


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## Bwv 1080

My new fav Death metal band, great chops employed to make the most godawful heaviest **** imaginable


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## SanAntone

_Mnemosyne_
*Aenaon*

Named for the Greek goddess of memory, this album is definitely a mind trip of the most cerebral variety, yet often plays off fairly typical black metal motives while venturing into uncharted waters. Among the sea of atonal melodies, dissonant chords and odd rhythmic twists is an aesthetic that isn't all that far from that of Enslaved and Borknagar, though it's heavily ornamented to the point that it often finds itself veering into a number of stylistic subplots, with this sort of nuanced mixture of shoegaze/post-black metal atmospheric moments and quirky progressive transitions. Orestis Zyrinis reprises his prior role as the band's odd man out on the saxophone, yet his input proves quite consequential in shaping some of the more odd instrumental segments, be it the occasional melodic jazz ballad moment where auditory violence gives way to momentary serenity or an extended interlude where the sense of contrast is further heightened with some technical noodling. (review)


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Damn you guys are posting heavy xxxx! Did you hear this one? Was hooked on this track when it came out.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Alright! Out today \m/


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## SanAntone

Finnish prog-metal *Wheel* recently signed a deal with noted prog label InsideOutMusic, a perfect place for this rising young band. The first release from this pairing is the new EP titled _Rumination_, a 3 song collection highlighting the band’s songwriting and performance chops.


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## SanAntone

*WHITE WARD – FALSE LIGHT*

*White Ward* are a Ukrainian band but this album was recorded before the invasion of their country by Russia. It deals with various dystopian themes but not that one – but we must be mindful of what the members of this band must be going through in their home country right now.

They’re essentially a black metal band and _False Light_ is their third full length. (continue)


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## SanAntone

*SIGH – SHIKI*

Anthemic twin-guitar harmonies and virtuosic runs, lush goth symphonics, flashes of outrageous psychedelic weirdness and one of Mirai Kawashima’s most eclectic vocals performances to date combine forces to create an album that defies explanation but has to be heard at least once to be believed. (David Bowes | December 7, 2022)


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## SanAntone

*SHAAM LAREIN – STICKA EN KNIV I VÄRLDEN*

A band that takes a massive approach between post-punk, doom, and avant-garde metal by bursting through those big, heavy doors with a hardcore punch. They open the flood gates with their latest follow-up _Sticka En Kniv I Världen_ (Stick a Knife into the World). The band is named after their distinctive-like singer herself, *Shaam Larein*, who was brought up between the classical art world of Russia and Andrei Tarkovsky’s film work. (Zachary Nathanson | November 30, 2022)


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## Kjetil Heggelund

The evolution of metal guitar:
1. Brian May
2. Randy Rhoads
3. Dimebag Darrell
What you think about that? I believe they copied the earlier "generation".


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## SanAntone

*Nightwish ~ HUMAN :||: NATURE*






After the brilliant _Endless Forms Most Beautiful_ nearly 5 years ago, as well as the storming ‘Decades’ tour in 2018, one question has lingered. How would Finnish metallers Nightwish be able to follow up from this? The answer appears to be with their ninth outing _Human :||: Nature_. 

This is stylised in such a way, because it’s a double album, with act one being the ‘Human’ side of the record and act two being the ‘Nature’ side. It’s an interesting concept that ties everything together, making for two different sides to the same coin. The first half is packed with the theatrical symphonic metal that makes them so iconic, with some surprising experimentation added into the mix. Meanwhile, on the second, keyboard player Tuomas Holopaianen (who writes the music and lyrical content for the band) has gone all-out, and created a stunning orchestral score, that is over 30 minutes in length, told in eight parts. (read more)


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## Eva Yojimbo

^ I haven't really cared for a Nightwish album in full since Once in '04 and I think most of their recent material has been incredibly bland and uninspired. That said, Floor Jansen could sing the phone book and make it interesting, and I love hearing her sing their old material with the band live. For those who haven't heard it, this song in particular has become something of a YouTube sensation with numerous vocal coaches and other reaction channels reacting to it, mostly because of its climactic final moments:


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## Rogerx

Air said:


> Oh my goodness, people...


This.......🤣


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## SanAntone

*Dødsengel – Bab Al On*






The subject of Dødsengel’s Bab Al On. Babalon is a Thelemic goddess embodying both female sexuality and motherhood. Variously depicted as an abstract archetype of licentious liberation, a ‘sacred *****’ astride the demonic Great Beast, and a deity of incarnation and destruction, she essentially stands against the patriarchal ideal of order in her chaotic physicality. Dødsengel dedicate their fifth full-length to this (un)holy mother, with an iteration of their already obscure and restless black metal as strange as it is compelling. (continue reading)


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