# Historical Wagner Recordings...............



## Itullian

I have many Wagner recordings, but am a bit light on the great mono historical recordings.

Which are the ones I need to get? Your favorites?

thanks


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## Woodduck

Itullian said:


> I have many Wagner recordings, but am a bit light on the great mono historical recordings.
> 
> Which are the ones I need to get? Your favorites?
> 
> thanks


Are you looking for complete operas, excerpts, or both?


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## Itullian

Woodduck said:


> Are you looking for complete operas, excerpts, or both?


Both, but leaning more toward complete or semi complete recordings.
I know cuts were common back then.


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## Woodduck

Well, here are a few complete ones I admire (I can comment only on performances, not labels and remasterings):

*Dutchman:* The 1955 Bayreuth with Kna, Uhde, Varnay, Windgassen and Weber. Uhde is becoming a fetish of mine. He's an amazing singer with a haunted quality in his voice perfect for Wagner's not-quite-normal characters lol, and has the rare ability to express extremes of drama without ever losing vocal focus. Hotter and London were other great Dutchmen on live recordings from that era, but I think this one is special.

*Tannhauser:* I have no recommendation.

*Lohengrin:* another strong performance from Bayreuth: 1953, Keilberth, with Windgassen, Steber, Varnay and Uhde. This was a great night for all concerned. Windgassen is not a real Lohengrin vocally, for my taste, but of course he's always an intelligent performer. The others are splendid, with Steber simply beautiful, Varnay wonderfully witchy and powerful, and Uhde the greatest of all Telramunds, as much victim as villain.

*Tristan und Isolde:* From Bayreuth: 1952, Karajan, with Modl, Vinay, Malaniuk, Hotter and Weber. Really intense and human, even for someone with an aversion to Martha Modl's voice  (she's a great artist, of course). From Munich: a live performance, 1950, under Kna, with Treptow, Braun, Klose, Schoeffler and Frantz. A very strong performance, with Treptow a surprisingly fine Tristan (I wasn't acquainted with his work) and a chance to hear Kna. Of course there's the '66 Bohm from Bayreuth, which everyone should have already.

*Meistersinger:* I haven't kept up with this opera on records. I've talked about the '56 Kempe and have been happy with it over the years.

*Ring:* The Krauss, Keilberth and Knappertsbusch '50s Bayreuth cycles all have their fans. There are many singers in common so perhaps it comes down to your taste in conductors. Then there are the live Furtwanglers from La Scala, and his RAI cycle. One must have some Furty, but casts of both are uneven. La Scala, 1950, has Flagstad. I don't care for the cast on Furty's 1954 studio Walkure (Modl, Rysanek, Suthaus, Frantz).

*Parsifal:* I've lost count of the number of Knas from Bayreuth. I'm not enough of a fanatic (believe it or not) to try to keep up, though it would be fascinating to trace the changes and continuities from 1951 to 1964. There's also a live Karajan Parsifal from Vienna which is highly regarded as a performance but apparently has rather poor sound. I've made some comments on your "2015 TC most recommended opera CD's and DVD thread": http://www.talkclassical.com/36891-2015-tc-most-recommended-26.html?highlight=parsifal

There are many important historic recordings of excerpts made before it was practical to record the complete operas. Arguably the greatest examples of Wagner singing are to be found there. I'll do another post with some of those.


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## DavidA

One problem with historical performances of Wagner is that, as much of the interest lies in the orchestra, much detail can be missed without modern recording techniques. Of the 'historical' performances I have collected, making allowances for the sound:

Mastersingers - Karajan's 1951 recording is terrific, live theatre.

Tristan - Karajan's 1952 recording Woodduck has mentioned and I agree with that. Tends to keep one awake all night if listened to too late into the evening!
Of course, Furtwangler's Tristan also falls into the historical category and is a great example of the conductor's unique way with Wagner even if Flagstaff (imo) sounds a bit past it.

Parsifal - was most disappointed with Kna's 1951 performance even though it has legendary status. So painfully slow. Recommended to insomniacs perhaps? Karajan's 1961 Vienna version seethes with drama and has a stella cast although some may not like the idea of two Kundrys. It must be said that Hoffgen in Acts 1 and 3 is good while Ludwig in Act 2 is fabulous. Sadly the sound is not that good.

The Ring - the Krauss is conducted by a master with a first rate cast. Could be argued it's the best performance on disc but of course the sound is limited.
Walkure - the 1954 Furtwangler must be heard for the conducting even if the cast is not exactly (as recorded) first rate. However, the essential purchase is of the Lehmann / Melchior / Walter recording of Act 1. The orchestra is dim but listen to those voices!


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## schigolch

I love this version of Tristan:


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## Couac Addict

schigolch said:


> I love this version of Tristan:


This is quite possibly Flagstad's best Isolde...and she has few good ones  
Amazing.


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## Pugg

​
Just one word: *Stunning* :tiphat:


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## silentio

My guilty pleasure:


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## Itullian

Pugg said:


> ​
> Just one word: *Stunning* :tiphat:


I heard this on youtube and the sound was horrible. Is that the case?


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## DarkAngel

Tannhauser Sawallisch performances from Bayreuth 1962 and 1961.......both with the black Venus Grace Bumbry! Excellent live sound, great golden era casts not to be missed

















Keilberth 1954 Bayreuth, good but not great live sound, very strong male cast and rare chance to hear Gre Brouwenstijn

*Spotify Premium*
All these albums and much more historical Wagner are available on spotify premium at 312 mp3 streaming, essential service for opera fans!


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## DarkAngel

The great 1953 Krauss Bayreuth Ring available cheap in just OK sound from opera d oro, for big price increase you get a slight sound improvement in new Orfeo remaster, but for 117 euros you get an amazing miracle of sound improvement (that crushes the Orfeo) with Pristine XR ambient stereo remaster.......

Since the US dollar is much stronger now the price is getting much cheaper for USA buyers, Itullian take note......


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## Seattleoperafan

It is stereo, but the first stereo Ring which was from Bayreuth and with Varnay is absolutely amazing. I think it is 55.


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## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> The great 1953 Krauss Bayreuth Ring available cheap in just OK sound from opera d oro, for big price increase you get a slight sound improvement in new Orfeo remaster, *but for 117 euros you get an amazing miracle of sound improvement (that crushes the Orfeo) with Pristine XR ambient stereo remaster*.......
> 
> Sine the US dollar is much stronger now the price is getting much cheaper for USA buyers, Itullian take note......


Want it.............


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## DarkAngel

I do love the 1954 Jochum Bayreuth Lohengrin, cast is stacked sky high, very good sound that will surprise many

Also like the 1953 Keilberth Bayreuth (mentioned in other posts by Pugg and Ducky) and the sound is also very good in version below I have, Astrid Varney and Uhde great villians










FYI - anytime you see historical wagner opera by *ZYX label* with artwork similar to above album just buy it, they are insanely cheap and always highly rated performances


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## Itullian

I have and love the 54 Jochum Grand Tier......
I'll give that Keilberth a try


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## Itullian

Always love your Wagner posts DA :tiphat:


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## Gaspard de la Nuit

Woodduck said:


> *Lohengrin:* another strong performance from Bayreuth: 1953, Keilberth, with Windgassen, Steber, Varnay and Uhde. This was a great night for all concerned. Windgassen is not a real Lohengrin vocally, for my taste, but of course he's always an intelligent performer. The others are splendid, with Steber simply beautiful, Varnay wonderfully witchy and powerful, and Uhde the greatest of all Telramunds, as much victim as villain
> 
> *I don't care for the cast on Furty's 1954 studio Walkure (Modl, Rysanek, Suthaus, Frantz).*
> 
> .


Well maybe _they_ don't care for _you_, did you ever think of that?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

But really, I don`t see what everyone has against this cast. Modl's voice actually sounds more distinctive on recording than anyone else in the part, and frantz has the darkest, heaviest Wotan and I feel like in the context of this music there's something to be said for that.

Don't forget about Josef greindl's impossibly huge voice in Lohengrin, king Henry is a pretty big part.


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## Pugg

Itullian said:


> I heard this on youtube and the sound was horrible. Is that the case?


When performances are good I can take a "less good sound" 
Do try yo find the CD as my original post is , that's the best one, ore if your in to vinyl: The Decca recording.:tiphat:


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## DavidA

Woodduck said:


> I don't care for the cast on Furty's 1954 studio Walkure (Modl, Rysanek, Suthaus, Frantz).


When Leinsdorf's Walkure (the first to be released in stereo) came out the critics were divided between what was considered the better cast and recording on the Leinsdorf and the incomparable conducting on the Furtwangler. As the Record Guide put it: "There is nothing in Leinsdorf's conducting that effaces one bar of Furtwangler's inspired direction."


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## Woodduck

No one has yet brought up the 1951 Bayreuth _Gotterdammerung_ under Knappertsbusch. I haven't heard it, but people say it's a powerful one, better even than his complete Bayreuth _Ring_ from 1956, with Varnay in fresher voice as Brunnhilde. I'd expect this, of all the _Ring_ operas, to bring out Kna's strengths as a Wagnerian.


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## Itullian

Woodduck said:


> No one has yet brought up the 1951 Bayreuth _Gotterdammerung_ under Knappertsbusch. I haven't heard it, but people say it's a powerful one, better even than his complete Bayreuth _Ring_ from 1956, with Varnay in fresher voice as Brunnhilde. I'd expect this, of all the _Ring_ operas, to bring out Kna's strengths as a Wagnerian.


The price tag has kept me at bay


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## Woodduck

Itullian said:


> The price tag has kept me at bay


Yeah, likewise. But I know i'm going to break down some day.


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## Itullian

Woodduck said:


> Yeah, likewise. But I know i'm going to break down some day.


Listening on youtube right now.


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## schigolch

This is a quite interesting recording:


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## DavidA

Woodduck said:


> No one has yet brought up the 1951 Bayreuth _Gotterdammerung_ under Knappertsbusch. I haven't heard it, but people say it's a powerful one, better even than his complete Bayreuth _Ring_ from 1956, with Varnay in fresher voice as Brunnhilde. I'd expect this, of all the _Ring_ operas, to bring out Kna's strengths as a Wagnerian.


According to Culshaw Decca recorded all four parts of Kna's Ring that year but only Gotterdamerung was thought to be worth releasing. Of course it was delayed because of contractual problems.


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## DarkAngel

Woodduck said:


> *No one has yet brought up the 1951 Bayreuth Gotterdammerung under Knappertsbusch.* I haven't heard it, but people say it's a powerful one, better even than his complete Bayreuth _Ring_ from 1956, with Varnay in fresher voice as Brunnhilde. I'd expect this, of all the _Ring_ operas, to bring out Kna's strengths as a Wagnerian.





> Listening on youtube right now.





> According to Culshaw Decca recorded all four parts of Kna's Ring that year but only Gotterdamerung was thought to be worth releasing. Of course it was delayed because of contractual problems.







Nice, I have not heard this before, very good sound for 1951 historic re-opening of Bayreuth......
Astrid Varnay huge shoes to fill in Brunnhilde role, replaces some lady named Flagstadt

I also will admire from afar, the price for Testament release at Amazon is painful


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## DarkAngel

I picked these up recently 1960 Knappy and 1959 Leinsdorf both live Bayreuth and both very good sound, great golden age singers with Grummer singing Eva in both.....no one does it better

http://www.norpete.com/

These can be expensive at Amazon but vendor above has huge Myto sale now, $14 each for 4CD sets and $7 for 2CD sets, orders over $50 ship free with fast service!


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## Itullian

^^^^How's Wiener in that '59 set DA?
He's a controversial singer 
Schock too 

I have the 60 set and like it very much.

I'll check that place out DA. Thanks!!!!!!


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## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> ^^^^How's Wiener in that '59 set DA?
> He's a controversial singer
> Schock too
> 
> I have the 60 set and like it very much.
> 
> *I'll check that place out DA*. Thanks!!!!!!


Definitely back the truck up....you will never see prices on Wagner Myto that low with free shipping! 
Good selection of other Myto recordings also like live Callas in better sound than EMI live


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## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Nice, I have not heard this before, very good sound for 1951 historic re-opening of Bayreuth......
> Astrid Varnay huge shoes to fill in Brunnhilde role, replaces some lady named Flagstadt
> 
> I also will admire from afar, the price for Testament release at Amazon is painful


I ended up listening to the whole thing.
A riveting performance.
The orchestra sounded a bit thin in spots, but on the whole very good sound.


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## Woodduck

Itullian said:


> I ended up listening to the whole thing.
> A riveting performance.
> The orchestra sounded a bit thin in spots, but on the whole very good sound.


Great to know it's on YT. I'll have to set aside some time (i.e. spend less time hanging around here).


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## Itullian

Woodduck said:


> Great to know it's on YT. I'll have to set aside some time (i.e. spend less time hanging around here).


Multi task paesan


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## Itullian

The 2 recordings I still really want to get are the Kempe Meistersinger and the Knap
studio Decca Meister with Schoeffler.


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## Becca

Itullian said:


> Multi task paesan


I am much better at multi-slacking :lol:


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## Woodduck

Maybe it's time to mention some historic recordings of extended excerpts. 3 should be at the top of anyone's list:

The 1935 _Walkure_ Act 1 with Lotte Lehmann, Lauritz Melchior and Emanuel List under Bruno Walter. 




The 1929-1931 Meistersinger excerpts featuring Friedrich Schorr's magnificent Sachs. 




Among these is the most exquisite recording of the quintet ever made, led by Elisabeth Schumann: 




The 1929 Tristan Act 2 love duet (abridged) with Melchior and Frida Leider. Here's from "O sink hernieder" on:





The 1920s and '30s are often called the Golden Age of Wagner singing. I'd say these recordings alone make a persuasive case for it.


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## Itullian

^^^^^Thanks!!!!!
I be checkin' em out.


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## Itullian

This 1960 Kempe series on Myto has awesome singing and very good mono sound.
Not too expensive either.
Uhde is Wotan on Das Rheingold.


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## Itullian

Hines' Wotan has to be heard to be believed!!!!!!
Awesome.....................


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## Woodduck

Here are a couple more favorite scenes.

From 1939, the prologue duet from _Gotterdammerung_ with Flagstad and Melchior in their glorious primes:






This recording was my first hearing of these singers, probably 50 years ago. I could hardly believe human beings could sound like this! The tempo's crazy frantic - the conductor lets out an audible gasp at the end - but who cares?

On my old LP that duet was accompanied by the Kundry-Parsifal scene, which I believe was recorded at the same time. The recordings capture the voices beautifully, I think; the orchestra doesn't fare so well, as we'd expect, and Edwin McArthur was no Knappertsbusch. But singing of this quality justifies it all. Flagstad, a rather cool seductress in the studio (she was a performer who gave her best in live performance), nonetheless negotiates Kundry's tortured melodic lines with uncommon ease. As for Melchior, I don't know what he thought about the role of Parsifal, but here he is simply phenomenal, not only vocally but musically and dramatically, not missing a single opportunity to get to the heart of the character and the situation.






After that I can only append Melchior's exalted performance of Parsifal's final scene from Act 3, "Nur eine Waffe taugt."






Unglaublich, ja?


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## Woodduck

Itullian said:


> Hines' Wotan has to be heard to be believed!!!!!!
> Awesome.....................


Jerome Hines isn't remembered often enough. Vocally the equal of any Wotan since Schorr, I think, although considered a true bass rather than a bass baritone. He was evidently a fine Gurnemanz. A sample from that recording:


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## Itullian

woodduck said:


> jerome hines isn't remembered often enough. Vocally the equal of any wotan since schorr, i think, although considered a true bass rather than a bass baritone. He was evidently a fine gurnemanz. A sample from that recording:


yup, amazing............


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## schigolch

Speaking about incomplete recordings, I like a lot this one of "Der Fliegende Holländer":

Reiner, 1937
Covent Garden 


Herbert Janssen, Ludwig Weber, Kirsten Flagstad, Max Lorenz.


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## Couac Addict

Do movies count? What if Lemeshev is in it?


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## jflatter

In addition to recordings mentioned I would add Kna's 52 recording of Meistersinger with Della Casa as Eva who was perfect. Another interesting recording is a Die Walküre from 6 December 1941 conducted by Leinsdorf. It's notable as Varnay's debut on stage as Sieglinde but also worth hearing for Melchior as Siegmund.


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## Retired

The same selection in German...

http://serial5.ru/watch/TAWkrNoEfUE/hans-hotter-die-walkre-wagner-wotans-farewell-1942.html


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## silentio

*HEY ALL WAGNERITE!*

What do you think about the Potted Ring?









I saw my favorite Frida Leider,Lauritz Melchior, Florence Austral, Maria Olszewska there...


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## Woodduck

Retired said:


> The same selection in German...
> 
> http://serial5.ru/watch/TAWkrNoEfUE/hans-hotter-die-walkre-wagner-wotans-farewell-1942.html


God, how beautiful. We rarely hear him in his youthful prime. Has any Wotan ever sounded so warm and sympathetic? It seems impossible to avoid the word "noble" when speaking of Hotter. He had that quality from the beginning, and never lost it no matter his age or vocal condition.


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## Retired

> God, how beautiful. We rarely hear him in his youthful prime. Has any Wotan ever sounded so warm and sympathetic? It seems impossible to avoid the word "noble" when speaking of Hotter. He had that quality from the beginning, and never lost it no matter his age or vocal condition.


This is Hotter at the height of his powers of which we have little in quality recordings. What separates Hotter from almost all others for me is the range of dynamics, dramatic content and vocal color. This huge voice still enunciates every vowel and consonant but keeps the cantilena intact and in German no less. We need more lower male voices that will drop the endless resonant buzz and give us color .. sing to us instead of trying to impress us...more Lieder might help. Of course when you can whisper and be heard as Hotter could, one has quite an advantage. I worked with him when he was in his 70s...it was humbling even then.


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## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> This *1960 Kempe series on Myto has awesome singing *and very good mono sound.
> Not too expensive either.
> Uhde is Wotan on Das Rheingold.


I have taken advantage of Myto sale to also *buy entire 1960 Kempe Ring*, it is really great singing and the live sound is very good, thank the opera gods of Bayreuth that they can be ours.......

Also with Wagner fever burning........

I purchased *entire 1952 Keilberth Ring,* we get some different singers and younger versions of those in 1960 Kempe Ring, what amazed me was the sound is really great.....as good as the 1960 set, wonderful really!










Myto sale.........



> http://www.norpete.com/
> 
> These can be expensive at Amazon but vendor above has huge Myto sale now, $14 each for 4CD sets and $7 for 2CD sets, orders over $50 ship free with fast service!


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## Itullian

^^^^^^^^Glad you picked up Kempe's 60 Ring DA.
It's excellent


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## Itullian

I'm trying to remember which mono Keilberth is supposed to be better, the 52 or 53.


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## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> I'm trying to remember which mono Keilberth is supposed to be better, the 52 or 53.


1953 Keilberth Ring has nearly the same cast as 1953 Krauss Ring, but no easy or cheap way to buy these like our Myto sets, I have read reports that it is very worthy.....

I do have this cheap 1953 Keilberth Siegfried and sound is very good.........


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## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> 1953 Keilberth Ring has nearly the same cast as 1953 Krauss Ring, but no easy or cheap way to buy these like our Myto sets, I have read reports that it is very worthy.....
> 
> I do have this cheap 1953 Keilberth Siegfried and sound is very good.........


Cool cover too


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## Itullian

Itullian said:


> Hines' Wotan has to be heard to be believed!!!!!!
> Awesome.....................


Have you listened to Hines Wotan yet DA? Amazing


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## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Have you *listened to Hines Wotan *yet DA? Amazing


It is in my listen to CD stack, will report back in a couple days.......


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## DarkAngel

These Walhall remasters are now available at Amazon USA sellers very cheap for *1958 Knappy Ring*, I have ordered a couple to check them out.......claims to be from original broadcast tapes with 26/96 remaster, the cast is the best of the best


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## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> These Walhall remasters are now available at Amazon USA sellers very cheap for *1958 Knappy Ring*, I have ordered a couple to check them out.......claims to be from original broadcast tapes with 26/96 remaster, the cast is the best of the best


I've been lookin at those DA 
Thanks :tiphat:


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## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> These Walhall remasters are now available at Amazon USA sellers very cheap for *1958 Knappy Ring*, I have ordered a couple to check them out.......claims to be from original broadcast tapes with 26/96 remaster, the cast is the best of the best


Man, that 4.00 per item is killer


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## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> I have taken advantage of Myto sale to also *buy entire 1960 Kempe Ring*, it is really great singing and the live sound is very good, thank the opera gods of Bayreuth that they can be ours.......
> 
> Also with Wagner fever burning........
> 
> I purchased *entire 1952 Keilberth Ring,* we get some different singers and younger versions of those in 1960 Kempe Ring, what amazed me was the sound is really great.....as good as the 1960 set, wonderful really!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Myto sale.........


I'm going for the 52 too DA.
Found them even cheaper at importcds


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## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> I'm going for the 52 too DA.
> Found them even cheaper at importcds


The 1952 Myto Keilberth Ring is too good to pass up at these low prices, plus you saved even more by not paying insane $4 shipping per CD at Amazon

Also don't forget the vendor I posted with free shipping over $50......



> http://www.norpete.com/
> 
> These can be expensive at Amazon but vendor above has huge Myto sale now, $14 each for 4CD sets and $7 for 2CD sets, orders over $50 ship free with fast service!


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## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Hines' Wotan has to be heard to be believed!!!!!!
> Awesome.....................


The 1960 Myto Kempe Ring is truely impressive , the Bayreuth sound is really excellent, should be right at the top of the list for best Rings .......

You and duck are right about Jerome Hines, I was not really aware of him previously but listened to disk 3 with Wotan delivering punishment to the defiant Valkyre Brunnhilde summoning the wall of fire, what a commanding performance! Such a deep powerful voice, yet capable of vocally showing the conflicted emotion of Wotan as he must deal with his beloved Brunnhilde

Just for reference I pulled out the 1955 stereo Testament Keilberth and in some ways the sound is even better on the 1960 Myto Kempe, so impressive we must spread the word.....


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## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> The 1960 Myto Kempe Ring is truely impressive , the Bayreuth sound is really excellent, should be right at the top of the list for best Rings .......
> 
> You and duck are right about Jerome Hines, I was not really aware of him previously but listened to disk 3 with Wotan delivering punishment to the defiant Valkyre Brunnhilde summoning the wall of fire, what a commanding performance! Such a deep powerful voice, yet capable of showing the conflicted emotion of Wotan as he must deal with his beloved Brunnhilde
> 
> Just for reference I pulled out the 1955 stereo Testament Keilberth and in some ways the sound is even better on the 1960 Myto Kempe, so impressive we must spread the word.....


Yes, especially with that other Kempe Ring out there in bad sound. Kempe fans need to know.


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## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> These Walhall remasters are now available at Amazon USA sellers very cheap for *1958 Knappy Ring*, I have ordered a couple to check them out.......claims to be from original broadcast tapes with 26/96 remaster, the cast is the best of the best


Let me know what you think of these DA. Very interested in the 57 or 58.

I love this thread. 

ps listened to 52 Keilberth Rheingold and Walkure last night and today on utube and LOVED them.


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## Itullian

My 52 Keilberth set has shipped...............
YAYYYYYYYYYYYY :guitar::trp::guitar:


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## Itullian

DA
I listened to a couple of the Knap Walhall's on Presto and it sounded very clear except the voices seemed WAY out front.
Did you find that too?
Or is it just me or my pc?


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## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> DA
> I listened to a couple of the Knap Walhall's on Presto and it sounded very clear except the voices seemed WAY out front.
> Did you find that too?
> Or is it just me or my pc?












Good idea, I didn't check Presto UK and they do have longer higher quality samples.........

*We have a winner for sure*, you may have listened to a couple tracks where singer was closer to mike stand but as they move around stage the perspective changes and it sounds pretty normal to me, and very high quality! I go right to act 3 *disc 3 of Walkure *and Astrid Varnay is divinely radiant as she is resigned to her fate at the hands of a reluctant Wotan, orchestra is very clear I can hear deep into the sound mix, magnificent I tell you.....

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Walhall/WLCD0247

We got a great price from importcds.com compared to Presto UK, *I will have to completely rethink my top five Ring list *now with Myto 1960 Kempe, Walhall 1958 Knappy, and Myto 1952 Keilberth in the house


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## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Good idea, I didn't check Presto UK and they do have longer higher quality samples.........
> 
> *We have a winner for sure*, you may have listened to a couple tracks where singer was closer to mike stand but as they move around stage the perspective changes and it sounds pretty normal to me, and very high quality! I go right to act 3 *disc 3 of Walkure *and Astrid Varnay is divinely radiant as she is resigned to her fate at the hands of a reluctant Wotan, orchestra is very clear I can hear deep into the sound mix, magnificent I tell you.....
> 
> http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Walhall/WLCD0247
> 
> We got a great price from importcds.com compared to Presto UK, *I will have to completely rethink my top five Ring list *now with 1960 Kempe, 1958 Knappy, and 1952 Keilberth in the house


Any particular reason you chose the 58 over the 57?


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## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Any particular reason you chose the 58 over the 57?


At first glance the overall 1958 cast looks stronger (second glance also confirms this) but we are talking about the greatest Wagner singers post WWII Bayreuth in the 1950s, how do you choose......


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## Itullian

That importcds price was fantastic, huh?


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## Itullian

Such a miracle that we get to hear these performances from those years.
In such good sound.
And as often as we like.
Amazing


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## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Such a miracle that we get to hear these performances from those years.
> In such good sound.
> And as often as we like.
> Amazing


CD remasters, Spotify and Tidal streaming, youtube........we are like gods in Valhalla!


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## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> CD remasters, Spotify and Tidal streaming, youtube........we are like gods in Valhalla!


Awesome DA
From the Met production I think. :tiphat:


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## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> CD remasters, Spotify and Tidal streaming, youtube........we are like gods in Valhalla!


Ah, but heed well the words of Loge!

_They hasten to their end,
though they think themselves strong and enduring.
I am almost ashamed
to share their doings;
my fancy lures me
to transform myself
back into flickering flames.
To burn them
who once tamed me,
rather than foolishly end
with the blind,
even though they be the most godlike gods,
does not seem stupid to me.
I'll think it over:
who knows what I will do?
_


----------



## Itullian

Woodduck said:


> Ah, but heed well the words of Loge!
> 
> _They hasten to their end,
> though they think themselves strong and enduring.
> I am almost ashamed
> to share their doings;
> my fancy lures me
> to transform myself
> back into flickering flames.
> To burn them
> who once tamed me,
> rather than foolishly end
> with the blind,
> even though they be the most godlike gods,
> does not seem stupid to me.
> I'll think it over:
> who knows what I will do?
> _


Warning heeded 

That's a great scene isn't it :tiphat:


----------



## Itullian

Listen to any more of these DA?

I haven't received the '52 set yet. Can't wait.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Listen to any more of these DA?
> 
> I haven't received the '52 set yet. Can't wait.


I have the complete 1952 Myto Keilberth Ring now, and the 1958 Walhall Knappy Ring are just starting to arrive.......

The 1952 Keilberth orchestrally is similar to Bohm Ring with more driven sound overall and faster timings, a nice contrast to Knappy's more majestic and monumental approach. I was again listening to act 3 of walkure with Hans Hotter and Astrid Varnay and this *maybe Hotter's best Wotan performance *(or very very close) the depth of characterization and flexibility of tone is really special, so passionate and dramatic in his delivery yet supple and golden toned.......we feel his angst and love for Brunnhilde and he puts her to sleep and laments the mistakes he has made, we have to own this Ring set.....










I did do short listening to Knappy 1958 on main stereo and sound is really excellent, we hit the jackpot again......


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> I have the complete 1952 Myto Keilberth Ring now, and the 1958 Walhall Knappy Ring are just starting to arrive.......
> 
> The 1952 Keilberth orchestrally is similar to Bohm Ring with more driven sound overall and faster timings, a nice contrast to Knappy's more majestic and monumental approach. I was again listening to act 3 of walkure with Hans Hotter and Astrid Varney and this *maybe Hotter's best Wotan performance *(or very very close) the depth of characterization and flexibility of tone is really special, so passionate and dramatic in his delivery yet supple and golden toned.......we feel his angst and love for Brunnhilde and he puts her to sleep and laments the mistakes he has made, we have to own this Ring set.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I did do short listening to Knappy 1958 on main stereo and sound is really excellent, *we hit the jackpot again*......


Yeah, you said it.
I've been checking out what I can on youtube and cant wait to get them.


----------



## Itullian

What's your opinion on Treptow?


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> What's your opinion on Treptow?


He sings Siegmund acts 1,2 with Inge Borkh as Sieglinde.......will get back to you on that


----------



## Itullian

Importcds has fancied up their website


----------



## DarkAngel

DarkAngel said:


> I have the complete 1952 Myto Keilberth Ring now, and the 1958 Walhall Knappy Ring are just starting to arrive.......
> 
> The 1952 Keilberth orchestrally is similar to Bohm Ring with more driven sound overall and faster timings, a nice contrast to Knappy's more majestic and monumental approach. I was again listening to act 3 of walkure with Hans Hotter and Astrid Varnay and this *maybe Hotter's best Wotan performance *(or very very close) the depth of characterization and flexibility of tone is really special, so passionate and dramatic in his delivery yet supple and golden toned.......we feel his angst and love for Brunnhilde and he puts her to sleep and laments the mistakes he has made, we have to own this Ring set.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I did do short listening to Knappy 1958 on main stereo and sound is really excellent, we hit the jackpot again......


For comparison I got out the *1967 Bayreuth Bohm walkure act 3 *with Theo Adam (wotan) and Nilsson (brunnhilde) the sound quality is better with Bohm vs 1952 Keilberth especially with orchestral sections (*this should be our standard to judge other Bayreuth live recordings, our sound measuring stick)
*
I will take 52 Hotter over Theo Adam any day. For me Adam is too light toned for Wotan and does not have the commanding presence or vocal gravitas of Hotter, also Hotter more skillfully nuanced in his delivery and more effectively reveals many layers of wotans emotional state. For Brunnhilde Nilsson and Varnay each very skilled and each with distinctive sound. Varnay has a richer more amber toned sound that I really like for certain passages, especially where there is sadness or pathos, very moving. Nilsson is brighter tone with sharper accents that can really carry the day in action sequences, demands your attention with her vocal prowess......both impressive in different ways


----------



## Itullian

^^^^^^^Yes, I would expect the Bohm set in stereo to have the better sound.
It compares well to the 55 set.
Are you disappointed DA?

These mono sets are good though and have great casts.
But you're right on Adam. I never liked his sound much.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> ^^^^^^^Yes, I would expect the Bohm set in stereo to have the better sound.
> It compares well to the 55 set.
> *Are you disappointed DA? *


No not at all disappointed with 1952 Keilberth sound, just saying that the Bohm Bayreuth Ring represents about the best possible live sound quality available at Bayreuth during the 1950-60 period, and can be used as a comparison in discussions for how close other live Rings come to it


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> No not at all disappointed with 1952 Keilberth sound, just saying that the Bohm Bayreuth Ring represents about the best possible live sound quality available at Bayreuth during the 1950-60 period, and can be used as a comparison in discussions for how close other live Rings come to it


I thought that's what you meant.


----------



## Itullian

Keilberth 52 still not here


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian lets see where we stand so far with live Bayreuth Ring sets from the 1950s

 Keilberth 1952

 Krauss 1953

 Keilberth 1955

 Knappy 1956

 Knappy 1958

continued.....


----------



## DarkAngel

Kempe 1960

I love all these, how does one choose among this field, so much Wagner so little time.......


----------



## Itullian

Well DA, it's not easy 

My 52 Keilbeth is still shipping so you have me there.
Next month I'll be ordering one or both of the Knappy 57 or 58. I cant decide between um. 

With the 53 Krauss, I have this special issue available only at importcds now and I love it.









And for the Knappy 56 I have the ORFEO, very nice.










Otherwise we'e the same.

You have the added burden of keeping up on all the Callas reissues, where an old fan like me is happy with my old 60s and 70s acquisitions.

I usually get in an Act or 2 of Richy a day.
How do you do it?


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Well DA, it's not easy
> 
> You have the added burden of keeping up on all the Callas reissues, where an old fan like me is happy with my old 60s and 70s acquisitions.
> *
> I usually get in an Act or 2 of Richy a day.*
> How do you do it?


I do not listen to Wagner everyday.......I have too many other opera albums, plus even more non vocal classical music. On top of that I have even more rock/metal albums, there is not enough time in the day!

I do not listen to music during my daytime job so usually I watch TV muted so I can listen to music at the same time and be active on computer


----------



## Itullian

Ah, my rock time is pretty limited these days and pretty limited to Tull, Dylan and the classic rock crowd.
But in the evening I usually can get in some Wagner. It's funny, i'm usually in the mood for certain acts.
Lately it's been Act 2's of Walkure, Siegfried and Gotter.
The lesser played ones I guess.
And I squeezed in my new Mefistofele last few days.
I work from home a lot so that helps.

The TV muted thing works great.


----------



## Itullian

That Bohm set.............. if it only wasn't for Adam...............what a set it would be.


----------



## DavidA

DarkAngel said:


> No not at all disappointed with 1952 Keilberth sound, just saying that the Bohm Bayreuth Ring represents about the best possible live sound quality available at Bayreuth during the 1950-60 period, and can be used as a comparison in discussions for how close other live Rings come to it


Mike Ashman wrote of the Bohm Ring in the Gramophone

The recording is not one of the great essays at pointing microphones in the Festspielhaus. The mistakes in ensemble are hard to square with Festival standards, or with Böhm's customary precision. Most vitally, his conducting sounds vague and unconnected either to the work or to any distinct view of it, gainsaying the set's vocal and dramatic pleasures.

I have the set and am amazed at the way Bohm rushes through the score with little light and shade, though some of this may be due to the recording.


----------



## Itullian

He is a bit fast and I do prefer a more expansive approach, but I think the sound is fine. Not perfect, but good stereo.

I do find it rather exciting.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> That Bohm set.............. *if it only wasn't for Adam*...............what a set it would be.


Yes I would prefer another Wotan with a deeper more commanding vocal presence, someone must like Theo Adam though because he is also wotan in the Janowski Ring.......


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Yes I would prefer another Wotan with a deeper more commanding vocal presence, someone must like Theo Adam though because he is also wotan in the Janowski Ring.......


He was all over in those days with his somewhat light, gravely voice.
i don't get it myself.
A lot of Meisters too.


----------



## DarkAngel

DavidA said:


> Mike Ashman wrote of the Bohm Ring in the Gramophone
> 
> The recording is not one of the great essays at pointing microphones in the Festspielhaus. The mistakes in ensemble are hard to square with Festival standards, or with Böhm's customary precision. Most vitally, his conducting sounds vague and unconnected either to the work or to any distinct view of it, gainsaying the set's vocal and dramatic pleasures.
> 
> I have the set and am amazed at the way *Bohm rushes through the score with little light and shade*, though some of this may be due to the recording.





> *He is rather fast and I do prefer a more expansive approach*, but I think the sound is fine. Not perfect, but good stereo.
> I do find it rather exciting in places. And a fun listen.


I decided I better check for myself about whether the impression that Bohm has swift tempos is indeed backed up by overall timings or just a wagner myth we keep spreading, the answer is yes he is in fact one of the fastest tempo but 52 Keilberth and 53 Krauss are almost the same timings for the opera Walkure in total minutes.......

210 - Bohm
211 - Krauss
212 - Keilberth 1952
225 - Kempe 1960
228 - Solti
234 - Knappy 1958
236 - Karajan


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> I decided I better check for myself about whether the impression that Bohm has swift tempos is indeed backed up by overall timings or just a wagner myth we keep spreading, the answer is yes he is in fact one of the fastest tempo but 52 Keilberth and 53 Krauss are almost the same timings for the opera Walkure in total minutes.......
> 
> 210 - Bohm
> 211 - Krauss
> 212 - Keilberth 1952
> 225 - Kempe 1960
> 228 - Solti
> 234 - Knappy 1958
> 236 - Karajan


Great idea DA!!!!
Maybe really not so fast then over 4 hours


----------



## Itullian

I'd like to get into the non Ring historical recordings as well if you'd like DA.
I'm kinda lacking there i think.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> I'd like to get into the non Ring historical recordings as well if you'd like DA.
> I'm kinda lacking there i think.


All we have to do is mention the perfect fool *Parsifal* and duck will be here in a flash give us all the top recordings.....

I did just recently get the famous 1951 Knappy Parsifal, the sound was better than I expected and Amazon sellers have it for $7 new......important reference performance

Dream team cast with young Windgassen as Parsifal, Martha Modl as Kundry etc


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> All we have to do is mention the perfect fool *Parsifal* and duck will be here in a flash give us all the top recordings.....


HA, He likes that 62 Knappy, i think.


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> All we have to do is mention the perfect fool *Parsifal* and duck will be here in a flash give us all the top recordings.....
> 
> I did just recently get the famous 1951 Knappy Parsifal, the sound was better than I expected and Amazon sellers have it for $7 new......important reference performance
> 
> Dream team cast with young Windgassen as Parsifal, Martha Modl as Kundry etc


I've been eyeing that one DA. OH, my wallet.


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> All we have to do is mention the perfect fool *Parsifal* and duck will be here in a flash give us all the top recordings.....
> 
> I did just recently get the famous 1951 Knappy Parsifal, the sound was better than I expected and Amazon sellers have it for $7 new......important reference performance
> 
> Dream team cast with young Windgassen as Parsifal, Martha Modl as Kundry etc


How are these zyx issues packaged DA? Jewel cases or what?


----------



## Woodduck

Itullian said:


> HA, He likes that 62 Knappy, i think.


Yeah, in the '62 Kna is a little livelier and makes it flow better, and the sound is definitely superior. Tastes in singers vary; I think Dalis is a better singer than Modl, and Thomas more mellifluous than Windgassen, who never sounded young even when he was (IMO). Hotter is incomparably noble as Gurnemanz, even past his prime. But the '51 has the amazing Hermann Uhde, the most psychotic Klingsor ever. It's a good recording to have, but you must have the '62, whatever else you own. The ethereal "Bayreuth sound" is palpable (assuming the ethereal can be palpable).


----------



## Itullian

Woodduck said:


> Yeah, in the '62 Kna is a little livelier and makes it flow better, and the sound is definitely superior. Tastes in singers vary; I think Dalis is a better singer than Modl, and Thomas more mellifluous than Windgassen, who never sounded young even when he was (IMO). Hotter is incomparably noble as Gurnemanz, even past his prime. But the '51 has the amazing Hermann Uhde, the most psychotic Klingsor ever. It's a good recording to have,* but you must have the '62, whatever else you own.* The ethereal "Bayreuth sound" is palpable (assuming the ethereal can be palpable).


At ease innocent one, we both own '62 Knappy. :tiphat:


----------



## Woodduck

Itullian said:


> At ease innocent one, we both own '62 Knappy. :tiphat:


Then you are safe and secure, and I shall not worry for your immortal souls.


----------



## DavidA

Itullian said:


> He was all over in those days with his somewhat light, gravely voice.
> i don't get it myself.
> A lot of Meisters too.


Bit like Ferdinand Franz


----------



## DavidA

DarkAngel said:


> All we have to do is mention the perfect fool *Parsifal* and duck will be here in a flash give us all the top recordings.....
> 
> I did just recently get the famous 1951 Knappy Parsifal, the sound was better than I expected and Amazon sellers have it for $7 new......important reference performance
> 
> Dream team cast with young Windgassen as Parsifal, Martha Modl as Kundry etc


I must confess I found this far too slow and lacking in drama. Wagner actually urged Hermann Levi not to be too slow in this work.


----------



## DavidA

DarkAngel said:


> I decided I better check for myself about whether the impression that Bohm has swift tempos is indeed backed up by overall timings or just a wagner myth we keep spreading, the answer is yes he is in fact one of the fastest tempo but 52 Keilberth and 53 Krauss are almost the same timings for the opera Walkure in total minutes.......
> 
> 210 - Bohm
> 211 - Krauss
> 212 - Keilberth 1952
> 225 - Kempe 1960
> 228 - Solti
> 234 - Knappy 1958
> 236 - Karajan


It is not just a matter of tempi but Bohm gives little light and shade compared with (say) Krauss or even Janowski 1.


----------



## Itullian

^^^^^^^^So the Bohm's too fast and the Knappy's too slow.
You're a hard man to please DavidA. 

I think they're both excellent and enjoy them very much :tiphat:


----------



## DarkAngel

DavidA said:


> It is not just a matter of tempi but *Bohm gives little light and shade compared *with (say) Krauss or even Janowski 1.


There is some truth to that, even though timings for walkure are almost identical I would agree that Krauss achieves more "contrast" to his performance emotionally and musically.......that being said I still like the Bohm Ring (inspite of Theo Adam)


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> How are these zyx issues packaged DA? Jewel cases or what?


Just like Myto, jewel cases with minimal booklet showing track listing.......but they are extremely cheap, I have purchased everyone of ZYX label for wagner


----------



## Itullian

My Keilberth '52 set arrived!!!!:trp:

Where do i start DA?


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> My Keilberth '52 set arrived!!!!:trp:
> 
> Where do i start DA?


I mentioned earlier 1952 Hans Hotter as wotan will spoil you so commanding and emotionally nuanced in his performance showing many sides of wotan as he evloves, and young Varnay a beautiful sensitive Brunnhilde with such a tender touch when called for.......you know I always go to act 3 of walkure to get the feel of these two main characters interacting


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> I mentioned earlier 1952 Hans Hotter as wotan will spoil you so commanding and emotionally nuanced in his performance showing many sides of wotan as he evloves, and young Varnay a beautiful sensitive Brunnhilde with such a tender touch when called for.......you know I always go to act 3 of walkure to get the feel of these two main characters interacting


Will be the first place i go DA :tiphat:


----------



## DarkAngel

I hope I am not getting carried away with all this wagner buying frenzy thinking everything sounds great.......but I think you will be pleased


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> I hope I am not getting carried away with all this wagner buying frenzy thinking everything sounds great.......but I think you will be pleased


It does sound great. WOW, I am pleased. Better than youtube. Amd just think,
this was over 60 years ago!! What voices.
I'll be up late tonight DA :tiphat:


----------



## Itullian

Hey DA
Check out this cast.............


----------



## DavidA

Itullian said:


> ^^^^^^^^So the Bohm's too fast and the Knappy's too slow.
> You're a hard man to please DavidA.
> 
> I think they're both excellent and enjoy them very much :tiphat:


As the paying customer I have a right to be. Same in a restaurant if the food isn't to my taste.

It's not a matter of speeds, actually. The Bohm has too little light and shade. Moments are just passed over. The Kna is undramatic.


----------



## Itullian

DavidA said:


> As the paying customer I have a right to be. Same in a restaurant if the food isn't to my taste.
> 
> It's not a matter of speeds, actually. The Bohm has too little light and shade. Moments are just passed over. The Kna is undramatic.


OK mate. To each his own you know.
i enjoy Bohm's directness and Knaps relaxed view.
:tiphat:


----------



## Woodduck

I'll just jump in here for no good reason and say, with great diplomatic finesse, that I find Kna's '51 _Parsifal_ powerful and profound in spots but a little lacking in momentum and cohesion. His tempos in the work got faster over his Bayreuth years (1951 to 1964), and although tempo doesn't necessarily correlate with drama, his later, quicker performances seem to me about perfect in both respects. The '62 is a beautifully cohesive performance in which I find the contemplative and dramatic elements ideally balanced. I've read that the final performance from '64 with Vickers as Parsifal is even more dramatic, but I've only heard the final scene, which is on YT.

This matter of "authentic" tempo in Wagner is complicated. It's true that Wagner complained about people dragging his music, but I think that has to be seen in the context of the music's complexity and originality. Wagner packs an unprecedented amount of harmonic change into a small space, and the natural tendency of musicians would have been to slow things down to get it all in and clearly articulated. We have a few timings for Wagner's own performances of his preludes, and while he took the _Meistersinger_ prelude quickly, his two timed performances of the _Parsifal_ prelude are about average modern tempos, with one of them on the slow side of that - much slower than Kna in '62. It's also documented that when he took the baton from Levi at the final performance and led the last scene himself, the singers said it was slow enough to challenge their breath support. Perhaps he was just feeling sentimental - his speech of gratitude to the performers after it was over supposedly had them crying - but it's clear that a range of tempo is appropriate in Wagner as in any composer. Whatever works!


----------



## Itullian

Well, so far I've listened to Rheingold, Walkure Act 3 and Gotter Act 3.
WOW, Hotter and Varnay in Walkure are phenomenal just like you said DA. And the Magic Fire Music was beautifully done
The Rheingold was great too holding my attention throughout. Especially liked the giants, Greindl and Weber.
Gotter Act 3 is one of the best ever. Siegfried's Funeral music totally gripping, his stabbing very horrifying, Varnay just awesome throughout, emolation scene heartwrenching and beautiful.
The sound throughout is very good.

Something else i really love is that MYTO payed attention to placing as many complete acts as they could on individual discs which i LOOOOOOOVE.

Some nice photos too.

Needless to say, enjoying this set. 
Can't wait to get the Knappy 57 and 58.

ps what do you think of that Tannhauser i posted?


----------



## DarkAngel

*We are getting very spoiled now* feasting on these classic golden age Rings like 1952 Keilberth with such great singers, how can I watch the new MET Ring on video with Debra Voight as Brunnhilde when I have memories of 1952 Astrid Varnay's godlike vocal performance...........

We must keep buying the classics, yessssssss!!!!!!!


----------



## Itullian

Could i be liking Varnay more than Nilsson?


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Hey DA
> Check out this cast.............


I like that 1954 Tannhauser and have owned it for many years in the cheap opera d oro release which has pretty good sound, it is possible that the sound has been improved with more recent Andromeda label version in your picture.......


----------



## Itullian

Listening now to K52 Walkure Act 1 to check out Treptow.
i get the chills every time i hear those opening stings.
i wonder if Williams got his Jaws music here


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> I like that 1954 Tannhauser and have owned it for many years in the cheap opera d oro release which has pretty good sound, it is possible that the sound has been improved with more recent Andromeda label version in your picture.......


With that cast i must get it.
It says 24 bit on front.


----------



## Itullian

i noticed it says Archipel on the MYTO sets. Are they the same company?


----------



## DavidA

Woodduck said:


> Whatever works!


Kna 51 doesn't for me! Karajan live Vienna 61 does. Pity the sound is limited. But must be heard for the Act 2


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> *We are getting very spoiled now* feasting on these classic golden age Rings like 1952 Keilberth with such great singers, how can I watch the new MET Ring on video with Debra Voight as Brunnhilde when I have memories of 1952 Astrid Varnay's godlike vocal performance...........
> 
> We must keep buying the classics, yessssssss!!!!!!!


It's an embarrassment of riches DA


----------



## Itullian

Just finished Act 1 Walkure. Keilberth uses a fast tempo at the end here, but man, is it exciting.
Borkh is so alluring and Teptow really lets go with the emotion.
Greindl is awesome, of course.
I'll be listening to this again.


----------



## Woodduck

DavidA said:


> Kna 51 doesn't for me! Karajan live Vienna 61 does. Pity the sound is limited. But must be heard for the Act 2


I just recently picked up that Vienna Karajan _Parsifal_ for $1 (yes, one dollar) at a local library. It's the Opera d'Oro but sonics aren't the point anyway. I'm looking forward to it.


----------



## Itullian

Woodduck said:


> I just recently picked up that Vienna Karajan _Parsifal_ for $1 (yes, one dollar) at a local library. It's the Opera d'Oro but sonics aren't the point anyway. I'm looking forward to it.


1 dollar?!
Couldn't you bargain with them? :lol:


----------



## DarkAngel

Woodduck said:


> I just recently picked up that Vienna Karajan _Parsifal_ for $1 (yes, one dollar) at a local library. It's the Opera d'Oro but sonics aren't the point anyway. I'm looking forward to it.


Is this the Parsifal where Karajan thought it would be a good idea to have two different women to sing different parts for Kundry........


----------



## DarkAngel

Note to Itullian, the Wagner fever has not abated, purchased a very cheap Walhall 1958 Bayreuth Lohengrin set.......unusual for having Cluytens in the saddle as conductor










Instead of paying a fortune for the Kubelik Parsifal with Sandor Konya I will go this route, you know Varnay will be great Ortud........


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Note to Itullian, the Wagner fever has not abated, purchased a very cheap Walhall 1958 Bayreuth Lohengrin set.......unusual for having Cluytens in the saddle as conductor
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Instead of paying a fortune for the Kubelik Parsifal with Sandor Konya I will go this route, you know Varnay will be great Ortud........


You rascal. That's on my list


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Is this the Parsifal where Karajan thought it would be a good idea to have two different women to sing different parts for Kundry........


Yes, the 61 Vienna. C Ludwig takes over in 2nd half of act 2 when Kundry turns to seductress, I believe?


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Note to Itullian, the Wagner fever has not abated, purchased a very cheap Walhall 1958 Bayreuth Lohengrin set.......unusual for having Cluytens in the saddle as conductor
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Instead of paying a fortune for the Kubelik Parsifal with Sandor Konya I will go this route, you know Varnay will be great Ortud........


Konya's legendary first night as Lohengrin in Bayreuth surrounded by the best cast imaginable. First release in master tape quality excellent sound


----------



## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> Is this the Parsifal where Karajan thought it would be a good idea to have two different women to sing different parts for Kundry........


Yes. I don't know the story on that, but DavidA probably does. I think the acts 1 and 3 Kundry is Elisabeth Hoengen, a fine mezzo of her day who was getting a bit old. Karajan may have felt (or been) obligated to use her but realized that Christa Ludwig would be far more seductive in act 2. In any case Ludwig is apparently fabulous, and if the performance had been recorded in good sound it would be competitive with the best. Or so some say. I'll opine after I've heard it.


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Note to Itullian, the Wagner fever has not abated, purchased a very cheap Walhall 1958 Bayreuth Lohengrin set.......unusual for having Cluytens in the saddle as conductor
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Instead of paying a fortune for the Kubelik Parsifal with Sandor Konya I will go this route, you know Varnay will be great Ortud........


You always find great Wagner buys DA.
Then I must partake as well :tiphat:


----------



## Itullian

Listening to act 3.............


----------



## AnotherSpin

Itullian said:


> Listening to act 3.............


 I was listening today to the same performance.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Listening to act 3.............


Time to finally admit the truth after 1952 Ring.........you do like Astrid Varnay more than Nilsson


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Time to finally admit the truth after 1952 Ring.........you do like Astrid Varnay more than Nilsson


OK, I admit it. Astrid has won me over


----------



## silentio

Itullian said:


> OK, I admit it. Astrid has won me over


Isn't it a good time for a thread devoted to her? Her name popped up many places in this forum already. She deserves it


----------



## Itullian

Also, this is a great Siegfried. Varnay and Aldenhoff make a compelling team.
You ever heard of him? I like him.

It's nice when we find items at import with 1.50 shipping instead of 4d Amazon.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Also, this is a great Siegfried. Varnay and *Aldenhoff* make a compelling team.
> You ever heard of him? I like him.


I don't really know him, but see that he is also in the 1957 Knappy Ring.......I also didn't know Jerome Hines until recently, so much Wagner talent back then they are now almost unknown


----------



## Itullian

Man, he sure sounds good.

Cant wait to get those Knappy's. They sound great on youtube.

We were thinking the same thing


----------



## Itullian

His Act 3 duet with Varnay is a killer.
Take a listen DA


----------



## Itullian

He was German, raised in an orphanage, started out singing Verdi, Manrico, then became, "the last" heldentenor.

From Wiki;

Bernd Aldenhoff was not only one of the last heldentenors, but also one of the most interesting. Knappertsbusch called him the most "human heldentenor" of his time.

As an interpreter, Aldenhoff was, without a doubt, the most precise and sensitive Wagner tenor of his generation.

I'm now a fan


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> I don't really know him, but see that he is also in the 1957 Knappy Ring.......I also didn't know Jerome Hines until recently, so much Wagner talent back then they are now almost unknown


This cast is AMAZING...............


----------



## Becca

I have been occasionally reading the posts in this thread and have what might seem like a dumb question ... what constitutes a historical recording? I have seen mention of recordings from the early 60s. Are you focusing more on non-commercial performances which have been released on disk, either bootleg or now after copyright has expired? I ask because in a major household sort-out, I came across two Sawallisch/Bayreuth performances which I bought decades ago, both with Anja Silja. One is Flying Dutchman, the other is Tannhauser, both on Philips. In the case of the Tannhauser, I bought it on 7" open reel tape back when such things were done! Apparently I transferred it to CD about 10 years ago.

P.S. As I remember, I bought the Dutchman in the mid 60s and had to have it specially ordered by a local record store which would do imports on demand.


----------



## Faustian

Becca said:


> I have been occasionally reading the posts in this thread and have what might seem like a dumb question ... what constitutes a historical recording? I have seen mention of recordings from the early 60s. Are you focusing more on non-commercial performances which have been released on disk, either bootleg or now after copyright has expired? I ask because in a major household sort-out, I came across two Sawallisch/Bayreuth performances which I bought decades ago, both with Anja Silja. One is Flying Dutchman, the other is Tannhauser, both on Philips. In the case of the Tannhauser, I bought it on 7" open reel tape back when such things were done! Apparently I transferred it to CD about 10 years ago.


I was wondering this as well.

I've been trying to dig into and listen to more historical Wagner recordings as of late myself, because it seems to me if you want to listen to the finest interpretations of Wagner you will simply have to get used to less immediately impressive sound, since the greatest period of Wagner singing seems to have been roughly between 1920 to 1960. I listened to the Tristan und Isolde from 1936 with Flagstad and Melchoir and led by Fritz Reiner recently and was absolutely bowled over at hearing the power of these singers in their primes, although the Furtwängler with a more mature Flagsatd still stands supreme for me.

I wanted to give a shout out for the reference to the 1960 Die Meistersinger under Knappertsbusch on Myto. A fantastic performance and a fantastic deal that I took advantage of as soon as I saw it. Thanks so much!!!


----------



## Itullian

I don't think its easily defined except I think we mean recordings from the "Golden Age" of Wagner singing up through early 60's.
Mono recordings mostly.


----------



## DarkAngel

Becca said:


> I have been occasionally reading the posts in this thread and have what might seem like a dumb question ... what constitutes a historical recording? I have seen mention of recordings from the early 60s. Are you focusing more on non-commercial performances which have been released on disk, either bootleg or now after copyright has expired? I ask because in a major household sort-out, I came across two *Sawallisch/Bayreuth performances *which I bought decades ago, both with Anja Silja. One is Flying Dutchman, the other is Tannhauser, both on Philips. In the case of the Tannhauser, I bought it on 7" open reel tape back when such things were done! Apparently I transferred it to CD about 10 years ago.


Since Itullian started this thread I will defer to him to define "historical" wagner recording.......

The Sawallisch Bayreuth Tannhausers from early 1960s are fabulous performances, *there are two on CD well worth getting both with black venus Grace Bumbry*......one pairs her with Anja Silja available on old Phillips (this is the one you have) or newer cheap ZYX CD release

 

Another on Myto label pairs Bumbry with "Vicky" De Los Angeles, both have extremely strong male casts










I am pretty sure the versatile mezzo soprano Grace Bumbry was the first afro American to sing at Bayreuth and she is affectionately known as the great "black venus"


----------



## DarkAngel

Faustian said:


> I was wondering this as well.
> 
> I've been trying to dig into and listen to more historical Wagner recordings as of late myself, because it seems to me if you want to listen to the finest interpretations of Wagner you will simply have to get used to less immediately impressive sound, since the greatest period of Wagner singing seems to have been roughly between 1920 to 1960. I listened to the Tristan und Isolde from 1936 with Flagstad and Melchoir and led by Fritz Reiner recently and was absolutely bowled over at hearing the power of these singers in their primes, although the Furtwängler with a more mature Flagsatd still stands supreme for me.
> 
> I wanted to give a shout out for the reference to the *1960 Die Meistersinger under Knappertsbusch on Myto*. A fantastic performance and a fantastic deal that I took advantage of as soon as I saw it. Thanks so much!!!


Good call, I posted that as my favorite Meister recently on Itullians favorite recording CD/Video thread (I was the only vote for that)


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Good call, I posted that as my favorite Meister on Itullians favorite recording CD/Video thread (I was the only vote for that)


It is a great one DA :tiphat:
You recommended it years ago and I got it then.


----------



## Itullian

DA
I couldn't resist and ordered the Cluytens Lohengrin from importcds.

Guess what. The postage is now 2.99


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> DA
> I couldn't resist and ordered the Cluytens Lohengrin from importcds.
> 
> Guess what. The postage is now 2.99


I keep forgetting Presto UK has sound samples.......we have struck gold again, great sound and amazing singing! Konya and Rysanek sound divine together and Varnay's dark Ortud is almost beyond description

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Walhall/WLCD0250#listen










The shipping price is minor setback, look how much Presto wants for that Lohengrin compared to importcds.com


----------



## Marschallin Blair

DarkAngel said:


> I keep forgetting Presto UK has sound samples.......we have struck gold again, great sound and amazing singing! Konya and Rysanek sound divine together and Varnay's dark Ortud is almost beyond description
> 
> http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Walhall/WLCD0250#listen
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The shipping price is minor setback, look how much Presto wants for that Lohengrin compared to importcds.com


I'd like to hear that Rysanek/Varnay Elsa/Ortud_ Lohengrin_ duet, actually.

My standard for the duet is the Schwarzkopf/Ludwig performance from the late fifties on EMI- as much of a chiaroscuro dramatic pairing as one can possibly imagine. Have you heard it?- If so, how do Rysanek and Varnay compare with it?


----------



## DarkAngel

Marschallin Blair said:


> I'd like to hear that Rysanek/Varnay Elsa/Ortud_ Lohengrin_ duet, actually.
> 
> My standard for the duet is the Schwarzkopf/Ludwig performance from the late fifties on EMI- as much of a chiaroscuro dramatic pairing as one can possibly imagine. Have you heard it?- If so, how do Rysanek and Varnay compare with it?


No have not heard that CD, looks like the duet pair is Schwarzkopf and Ludwig.......I am not aware of a complete Lohengrin recording with Schwarzkopf, but Christa Ludwig very famously appears on this Kempe performance with Grummer


----------



## Marschallin Blair

DarkAngel said:


> No have not heard that, looks like the duet pair is Schwarzkopf and Ludwig.......I am not aware of a complete Lohengrin recording with Schwarzkopf, but Christa Ludwig very famously appears on Kempe performance with Grummer


There isn't one.

The Schwarzkopf recital disc just has her and Ludwig doing an absolutely tremendous "_Euch luftern, die mein Klagen_" from Act II- which blows every other one I've heard away: Schwarzkopf is distilled, maidenly innocence and Ludwig is pure Maleficent.


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> I keep forgetting Presto UK has sound samples.......we have struck gold again, great sound and amazing singing! Konya and Rysanek sound divine together and Varnay's dark Ortud is almost beyond description
> 
> http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Walhall/WLCD0250#listen
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The shipping price is minor setback, look how much Presto wants for that Lohengrin compared to importcds.com


I find Presto high for almost everything. Same for Arkiv.
I can't wait to get it.
Next month is being slow to come


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> *I keep forgetting Presto UK has sound samples.....*..we have struck gold again, great sound and amazing singing! Konya and Rysanek sound divine together and Varnay's dark Ortud is almost beyond description
> 
> http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Walhall/WLCD0250#listen
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The shipping price is minor setback, look how much Presto wants for that Lohengrin compared to importcds.com


Yes, good quality clips with good duration.


----------



## Masada

Parsifal, make no mistake, this is the best (cast aside "subjective" and "objective" claims):









Tristan und Isolde:









The Ring:

Damn L.A. Opera for not recording their magisterial cycle (indeed, I was present for the series), but still, it's Solit, either one:















...also perfect:


----------



## Woodduck

Masada said:


> Parsifal, make no mistake, this is the best (cast aside "subjective" and "objective" claims):
> 
> View attachment 68933


Unless you don't care for the voices of Modl, Windgassen, and Greindl!


----------



## Itullian

Chomping at the bit for that Cluytens Lohengrin.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Chomping at the bit for that Cluytens Lohengrin.


Don't be too greedy........
you have the 1960 Kempe and 1952 Keilberth Rings to keep you busy while you wait :lol:

I was going to mention to Masada above that fans of historical wagner recordings may not be huge fans of the LA Ring, although I am curious to see video version just to see how far they actually took things......


----------



## Itullian

Yes DA, they are good company

When the LA Ring was being performed the LA Opera website showed many pics and scenes from it.
It was the most garish, ludicrous thing ever. Things flying around, clownlike images etc.
Needless to say, I didn't attend.


----------



## Allanmcf

If you're looking to amuse yourself for a couple of days why not do a direct comparison of the Bayreuth '53 Ring cycles by Kraus and Keilberth. Essentially the same casts so the fun is in listening to the differing interpretations by the two conductors. Personally, I can live with both.


----------



## DarkAngel

Allanmcf said:


> If you're looking to amuse yourself for a couple of days why not do a direct comparison of the Bayreuth '53 Ring cycles by Kraus and Keilberth. Essentially the same casts so the fun is in listening to the differing interpretations by the two conductors. Personally, I can live with both.


Great idea......but do you have a way to get 1953 Keilberth Ring without paying a fortune? Do you prefer one over the other?

I was able to get a very cheap 53 Keilberth Siegfried CD set on ZYX label


----------



## Allanmcf

Sorry Dark Angel. I paid about $60 dollars for a download copy from Opera Depot. Haven't seen it cheaper anywhere else. If you put a gun to my head I'll sway towards the Keilberth but only just. The Kempe '60 is the one to have although the '61 gives it a run for its money. Kempe is better in '61 but the cast sing better in '60 but we're splitting hairs now. It's like trying to pick a favourite child which is usually the one that's least annoying at that moment!! Only kidding kids!


----------



## DarkAngel

Allanmcf said:


> Sorry Dark Angel. I paid about $60 dollars for a download copy from Opera Depot. Haven't seen it cheaper anywhere else. If you put a gun to my head I'll sway towards the Keilberth but only just. The Kempe '60 is the one to have although the '61 gives it a run for its money. Kempe is better in '61 but the cast sing better in '60 but we're splitting hairs now. It's like trying to pick a favourite child which is usually the one that's least annoying at that moment!! Only kidding kids!


The CD version of 1953 Keilberth Ring is really expensive now on Amazon USA, hope you also like 1952 Keilberth Ring as we have been loving that here recently......also we all love the 1960 Kempe Ring, recent sale prices on Myto label make getting these very affordable now

Do you have a view on 1957 & 1958 Knappy Rings available very cheap now on Walhall label?


----------



## Allanmcf

Nothing to choose between either of them On balance the principal singers are in better form in '58 but you have Elisabeth Grummer's debut as Gutrune in '57 which I find marginally better than in '58. Windgassen and Varnay vary from opera to opera over both cycles but I should mention that the '56 cycle is, to my ears, very good. Modl wasn't at her absolute best but still acts her socks off and is a very subtle and emotive Brunnhilde. A bit less histrionic than Varnay. Again, in my opinion only.


----------



## Allanmcf

Itullian said:


> Chomping at the bit for that Cluytens Lohengrin.


Although not strictly historical the Bayreuth '68 Lohengrin conducted by Erede is just wonderful. James King is so good and the rest of the cast are excellent. Alberto Erede was a revelation to me. He really conducts with real dramatic flair and has lyricism too which Lohengrin needs if it isn't to sound like a series of marches during the big choral pieces.


----------



## Itullian

Really enjoying this journey thru the 52 Keilberth and cant wait to order the Knappys.


----------



## Itullian

Cluytens Lohengrin has shipped


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## Allanmcf

Itullian said:


> Cluytens Lohengrin has shipped


You will not be disappointed with the Cluytens. A much underrated conductor and this is a very good Lohengrin.


----------



## Itullian

Allanmcf said:


> You will not be disappointed with the Cluytens.* A much underrated conductor* and this is a very good Lohengrin.


Not by me :tiphat:


----------



## DarkAngel

I have the Cluytens Lohengrin and everything we hoped for is there, great live sound, Konya and Rysanek are vocally beautiful couple, and Astrid Varnay is best Ortrud I have heard for many reasons I can elaborate on.......I will treasure this performance

Still the 1962 Bayreuth Lohengrin under Sawallisch is the best live Lohengrin I have ever heard. Jess Thomas is the ultimate heroic Lohengrin, the mighty son of Parsifal, an iron fist in velvet glove vocally that can command power and defeat any foe yet float those heavenly high notes.......Anja Silja sounds younger and more vunerable than Rysanek, because of her lighter tone there is more contrast vocally when she engages the dark influence of Ortrud which Varnay is the greatest with her darker low voice she really conveys the sinister motives of this character in vivid detail, unforgettable

Also I must say Sawallisch in early 1960s is a great Wagner conducter and gets an edge over Cluytens, the final scence with the swan boat, Ortrud's final threat and death of Elsa is is slow monumental rolling climax that can sound underwhelming in the wrong hands, Sawallisch sustains a powerful climax that builds layer after layer commanding your attention, this is greatness!


----------



## DarkAngel

next post .......


----------



## DarkAngel

Thought I would mention I purchased these two boxsets recently, I love this series which contains extended sequences from each artist, has important performances and a variety to show full spectrum of artist's work......did I mention extremely cheap price!


----------



## Allanmcf

Itullian said:


> Not by me :tiphat:


Nor me! So many great conductors in the 50's and 60's that didn't have the "notoriety" of Karajan, Solti et al but were more than just routine kappelmeisters.


----------



## Itullian

Thank you for the great posts DA. That Sawallisch is a great Lohengrin alright.
And thanks for the review of the Cluytens. I can't wait to get it.

I've seen those 10cd boxes but didn't know what to make of them.
Thanks for the recommendation.
I'll have to check them out
After the Knaps of course


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Great idea......but do you have a way to get 1953 Keilberth Ring without paying a fortune? Do you prefer one over the other?
> 
> I was able to get a very cheap 53 Keilberth Siegfried CD set on ZYX label


Fantastic cover.


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## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Fantastic cover.


Yummy, taste the dragon's blood and listen to those birdies tweet......wait what did I just hear, you talking to me?












> Thank you for the great posts DA. That Sawallisch is a great Lohengrin alright.
> And thanks for the review of the Cluytens. I can't wait to get it.


I will keep searching but Jess Thomas is the best studio (kempe) and live (sawallisch) Lohengrin I have heard......


----------



## Allanmcf

Itullian said:


> Fantastic cover.


Hi Itullian and DA. The artist is Arthur Rackham. I found a great book of his illustrations for the Ring on Amazon. Decca used some of them for the booklets that they included in the big wooden case vinyl set of the Ring that they released in 1965.


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Yummy, taste the dragon's blood and listen to those birdies tweet......wait what did I just hear, you talking to me?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I will keep searching but Jess Thomas is the best studio (kempe) and live (sawallisch) Lohengrin I have heard......


Yes Travis, never mind Betsy and go get Brunhilde. :lol:


----------



## DarkAngel

Just wanted to say I have two of the 1957 Knappy's now, they were so cheap I could not resist. Already commented that 1958 Ring is a big winner in very good sound......the 1957 is even better sound, hard to believe amazing really! It is crystal clear with great fidelity, listening to Walkure now (of course) and I can hear every vocal nuance of Hotter and Varnay, subtle note sustains and decays in orchestra, I couldn't be more impressed with sound and performance......

The casts are going to have many repeats, but enough change to further induce purchase especially at these very low prices. In walkure wotan and brunnhilde are the same for 57 and 58 (Hotter and Varnay) but we get different siegmund/sieglinde for each year and some of the minor characters change.....

The buy basket grows bigger for Itullian


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Just wanted to say I have two of the 1957 Knappy's now, they were so cheap I could not resist. Already commented that 1958 Ring is a big winner in very good sound......the 1957 is even better sound, hard to believe amazing really! It is crystal clear with great fidelity, listening to Walkure now (of course) and I can hear every vocal nuance of Hotter and Vinay, subtle note sustains and decays in orchestra, I couldn't be more impressed with sound and performance......
> 
> The casts are going to have many repeats, but enough change to further induce purchase especially at these very low prices. In walkure wotan and brunnhilde are the same for 57 and 58 (Hotter and Varnay) but we get different siegmund/sieglinde for each year and some of the minor characters change.....
> 
> The buy basket grows bigger for Itullian


You sneak DA 
I cant wait to get those.
I'm getting both now for sure! :tiphat:


----------



## Allanmcf

The '56 Kna isn't too shabby either!!


----------



## DarkAngel

Allanmcf said:


> The '56 Kna isn't too shabby either!!


1956-58 Knappy Rings very soon will be mine, just have to get rest of the 57 shipped.......

Since we have talked much of the great American wagner tenor *Jess Thomas*, I spotted this very cheap DVD from Amazon USA sellers ($8) featuring Thomas in 1965 Bohm Salzburg festival Ariadne auf Naxos with great supporting cast, so I made the purchase......


----------



## Allanmcf

I have always like Jess Thomas. He was the first Lohengrin I heard when I got the Kempe. Great artist with a proper heldentenor voice. Incidentally as much as I admire Mr. Kaufmann I find his voice a tiny bit too baritonal for my taste. Not sure how he would fare as Walther or the Siegfried Siegfried!! As opposed to the Götterdämmerung Siegfried.

I have just finished listening to Act 1 of the 1968 Bayreuth Walkure. Wonderful stuff from King and Rysanek. James King, on form as he is here, is hard to beat with that great ringing tone he had. Another authentic heldentenor.


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> 1956-58 Knappy Rings very soon will be mine, just have to get rest of the 57 shipped.......
> 
> Since we have talked much of the great American wagner tenor *Jess Thomas*, I spotted this very cheap DVD from Amazon USA sellers ($8) featuring Thomas in 1965 Bohm Salzburg festival Ariadne auf Naxos with great supporting cast, so I made the purchase......


Wow, Reri Grist. Avery rare appearance. Underrated imho.


----------



## Woodduck

*PARSIFAL*

Fritz Uhl (Parsifal)
Christa Ludwig/Elisabeth Hoengen (Kundry)
Hans Hotter (Gurnemanz)
Eberhard Waechter (Amfortas)
Walter Berry (Klingsor)

*Herbert von Karajan/Vienna State Opera (live 1961)*

I've finally gotten around to listening to this. I have a somewhat different impression of it than some do. If you look on Amazon you'll find people calling it a great performance, compromised mainly by mediocre sound. I agree about the sound, but wouldn't go that far about the performance.

Karajan himself is very fine. I actually prefer this to his studio version, which is sensuously beautiful but lacks the feel of a real event and exhibits the occasional oddity of balance or emphasis. He keeps things moving here, if that's the way you like your _Parsifal_; I personally prefer a bit more gravity in the Act 1 temple scene, where his tempos for the choruses can verge on the jaunty, and the buildup to the catharsis of Act 3, where Amfortas asks the knights to kill him, is pushed very fast: Parsifal's entrance and the healing with the spear just go by too quickly and easily. The second act has a telling ferocity and momentum. I do note, however, that Wagner marks the Act 2 prelude "with movement, but not rushed," and I find that the slightly weightier approach of, say, Knappertsbusch pays dividends here, as well as in Klingsor's invocation of Kundry.

As for the singing, we have Hans Hotter's incomparably eloquent Gurnemanz, sounding a little rougher of voice than he did the following year at Bayreuth. The man's expressiveness and ability to make us hang on every word always amazes. Eberhard Waechter is perhaps one size too light and bright for an ideal Amfortas, lacking the full measure of royal gravitas and sheer heft at the climaxes, but his characterization is passionate. Walter Berry is a very forceful Klingsor; he sounds as nasty as he should, but his vocal timbre doesn't suggest real evil the way, say, Gustav Neidlinger's does on some of the Bayreuth recordings, much less the psychotic mania of the incomparable Hermann Uhde. Berry also departs from the written notes far too often, trying to sound violent; those other two artists find the expression in the music as written.

I don't know what Karajan's reasoning was in using two singers for Kundry. Elisabeth Hoengen's good days were clearly behind her, which is not a great liability in Acts 1 and 3 but makes her a little trying in the first scene of Act 2. Her intelligence and experience are never in doubt, but her ability to realize her intentions are rather compromised by much wobbly, off-pitch singing. From Kundry's entrance in the garden, however, we're in the splendidly seductive arms of Christa Ludwig. In her portrayal there's nothing to criticize; to my knowledge the role has not been sung better, although I think Irene Dalis comes close, with her smoky mezzo, on the Bayreuth sets from '61 and '62.

Which brings me to the performance's major liability, the Parsifal of Fritz Uhl. His voice is clearly not in good condition - too much heldentenoring, I suspect - and phrase after phrase is spoiled by a simple inablility to sustain a singing tone. As long as he can sing out he makes a reasonable, if unexciting, effect; but the moment the volume drops and subtlety is required the support vanishes, the vibrato along with it, and the phrasing falls to pieces. The sickly effect is embarrassing against the powerhouse Kundry of Ludwig, who simply eats him for lunch, and in act 3 he can't begin to suggest the mature man made wise through compassion. I'd like to think that Karajan chose Uhl because he couldn't get anyone better, but his choice of a Parsifal for his later studio recording, the almost equally unsatisfactory Peter Hofmann, has me seriously doubting his artistic judgment (and not for the first time when it comes to his casting choices, I have to say).

On the whole I would call this a very good Parsifal, which must have been rewarding in the theater. But a "great" performance, as some claim? Back to Bayreuth and Knappertsbusch for that. The 1962 will do just fine. The real reason to own this one is Christa Ludwig, whom even a feeble pure fool can't sink. With her working for Klingsor, the old castrato should have captured both spear and grail.

There's an anomaly in this recording I should mention. In the opening scene of the opera, the voices you hear as Gurnemanz and Kundry are those of Jerome Hines and Martha Modl! Apparently something went wrong with the tape of the Vienna performance, that scene couldn't be used, and so a 1959 performance from Bayreuth was spliced in. Presumably it's Knappertsbusch conducting. Since Waechter was the Amfortas in both, it dovetails neatly.

This performance is available on both RCA and Opera d'Oro. I have the latter, and I doubt the sound is much better on the former. It's listenable, though the voices are a bit too forward (except when they drift upstage, which doesn't happen often). Now that I've heard this, I'm ready to part with it. If you're interested, PM me.


----------



## Itullian

Thanks so much for the great review. :tiphat:
I'll pass on it.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Woodduck said:


> *PARSIFAL*
> 
> Fritz Uhl (Parsifal)
> Christa Ludwig/Elisabeth Hoengen (Kundry)
> Hans Hotter (Gurnemanz)
> Eberhard Waechter (Amfortas)
> Walter Berry (Klingsor)
> 
> *Herbert von Karajan/Vienna State Opera (live 1961)*
> 
> I've finally gotten around to listening to this. I have a somewhat different impression of it than some do. If you look on Amazon you'll find people calling it a great performance, compromised mainly by mediocre sound. I agree about the sound, but wouldn't go that far about the performance.
> 
> Karajan himself is very fine. I actually prefer this to his studio version, which is sensuously beautiful but lacks the feel of a real event and exhibits the occasional oddity of balance or emphasis. He keeps things moving here, if that's the way you like your _Parsifal_; I personally prefer a bit more gravity in the Act 1 temple scene, where his tempos for the choruses can verge on the jaunty, and the buildup to the catharsis of Act 3, where Amfortas asks the knights to kill him, is pushed very fast: Parsifal's entrance and the healing with the spear just go by too quickly and easily. The second act has a telling ferocity and momentum. I do note, however, that Wagner marks the Act 2 prelude "with movement, but not rushed," and I find that the slightly weightier approach of, say, Knappertsbusch pays dividends here, as well as in Klingsor's invocation of Kundry.
> 
> As for the singing, we have Hans Hotter's incomparably eloquent Gurnemanz, sounding a little rougher of voice than he did the following year at Bayreuth. The man's expressiveness and ability to make us hang on every word always amazes. Eberhard Waechter is perhaps one size too light and bright for an ideal Amfortas, lacking the full measure of royal gravitas and sheer heft at the climaxes, but his characterization is passionate. Walter Berry is a very forceful Klingsor; he sounds as nasty as he should, but his vocal timbre doesn't suggest real evil the way, say, Gustav Neidlinger's does on some of the Bayreuth recordings, much less the sheer psychotic mania of the incomparable Hermann Uhde. Berry also departs from the written notes far too often, trying to sound violent; those other two artists find the expression in the music as written.
> 
> I don't know what Karajan's reasoning was in using two singers for Kundry. Elisabeth Hoengen's good days were clearly behind her, which is not a great liability in Acts 1 and 3 but makes her a little trying in the first scene of Act 2. Her intelligence and experience are never in doubt, but her ability to realize her intentions are rather compromised. From Kundry's entrance in the garden, however, we're in the splendidly seductive arms of Christa Ludwig. In her portrayal there's nothing to criticize; to my knowledge the role has not been sung better, although I think Irene Dalis comes close, with her smoky mezzo, on the Bayreuth sets from '61 and '62.
> 
> Which brings me to the performance's major liability, the Parsifal of Fritz Uhl. His voice is clearly not in good condition - too much heldentenoring, I suspect - and phrase after phrase is spoiled by a simple inablility to sustain a singing tone. As long as he can sing out he makes a reasonable, if unexciting, effect; but the moment the volume drops and subtlety is required the support vanishes, the vibrato along with it, and the phrasing falls to pieces. The sickly effect is embarrassing against the powerhouse Kundry of Ludwig, who simply eats him for lunch, and in act 3 he can't begin to suggest the mature man made wise through compassion. I'd like to think that Karajan chose Uhl because he couldn't get anyone better, but his choice of a Parsifal for his later studio recording, the almost equally unsatisfactory Peter Hofmann, has me seriously doubting his artistic judgment (and not for the first time when it comes to his casting choices, I have to say).
> 
> On the whole I would call this a very good Parsifal, which may have been rewarding in the theater. But a "great" performance, as some claim? Back to Bayreuth and Knappertsbusch for that. The 1962 will do just fine. The only real reason to own this one is Christa Ludwig, whom even a feeble pure fool can't sink. With her working for Klingsor, the old castrato should have captured both spear and grail.
> 
> There's an anomaly in this recording I should mention. In the opening scene of the opera, the voices you hear as Gurnemanz and Kundry are those of Jerome Hines and Martha Modl! Apparently something went wrong with the tape of the Vienna performance, that scene couldn't be used, and so a 1959 performance from Bayreuth was spliced in. Presumably it's Knappertsbusch conducting. Since Waechter was the Amfortas in both, it dovetails neatly.
> 
> This performance is available on both RCA and Opera d'Oro. I have the latter, and I doubt the sound is much better on the former. It's listenable, though the voices are a bit too forward (except when they drift upstage, which doesn't happen often). Now that I've heard this, i'm ready to part with it. If you're interested, PM me.


_<Exeunt_ Woodduck and Knappy as the mouse trap springs.> _;D_

Beautiful review.

I agree that the '62 Knappertsbusch has the better singers and of course the glorious Philips engineered sound- but Karajan's dramatic flourishes animate the score for me in a way that Knappy's interpretation does not. I can't say that I have anywhere near the insight and experience as Woodduck does with this masterpiece of an opera- but here I stand, I cannot do otherwise.

I think it will be a perennial stay on the Marschallin's shelf- along with the '62 Knappertsbusch and the DG/Berlin Karajan.


----------



## DavidA

Woodduck said:


> *PARSIFAL*
> 
> Fritz Uhl (Parsifal)
> Christa Ludwig/Elisabeth Hoengen (Kundry)
> Hans Hotter (Gurnemanz)
> Eberhard Waechter (Amfortas)
> Walter Berry (Klingsor)
> 
> *Herbert von Karajan/Vienna State Opera (live 1961)*
> 
> I've finally gotten around to listening to this. I have a somewhat different impression of it than some do. If you look on Amazon you'll find people calling it a great performance, compromised mainly by mediocre sound. I agree about the sound, but wouldn't go that far about the performance.
> 
> Karajan himself is very fine. I actually prefer this to his studio version, which is sensuously beautiful but lacks the feel of a real event and exhibits the occasional oddity of balance or emphasis. He keeps things moving here, if that's the way you like your _Parsifal_; I personally prefer a bit more gravity in the Act 1 temple scene, where his tempos for the choruses can verge on the jaunty, and the buildup to the catharsis of Act 3, where Amfortas asks the knights to kill him, is pushed very fast: Parsifal's entrance and the healing with the spear just go by too quickly and easily. The second act has a telling ferocity and momentum. I do note, however, that Wagner marks the Act 2 prelude "with movement, but not rushed," and I find that the slightly weightier approach of, say, Knappertsbusch pays dividends here, as well as in Klingsor's invocation of Kundry.
> 
> As for the singing, we have Hans Hotter's incomparably eloquent Gurnemanz, sounding a little rougher of voice than he did the following year at Bayreuth. The man's expressiveness and ability to make us hang on every word always amazes. Eberhard Waechter is perhaps one size too light and bright for an ideal Amfortas, lacking the full measure of royal gravitas and sheer heft at the climaxes, but his characterization is passionate. Walter Berry is a very forceful Klingsor; he sounds as nasty as he should, but his vocal timbre doesn't suggest real evil the way, say, Gustav Neidlinger's does on some of the Bayreuth recordings, much less the psychotic mania of the incomparable Hermann Uhde. Berry also departs from the written notes far too often, trying to sound violent; those other two artists find the expression in the music as written.
> 
> I don't know what Karajan's reasoning was in using two singers for Kundry. Elisabeth Hoengen's good days were clearly behind her, which is not a great liability in Acts 1 and 3 but makes her a little trying in the first scene of Act 2. Her intelligence and experience are never in doubt, but her ability to realize her intentions are rather compromised by much wobbly, off-pitch singing. From Kundry's entrance in the garden, however, we're in the splendidly seductive arms of Christa Ludwig. In her portrayal there's nothing to criticize; to my knowledge the role has not been sung better, although I think Irene Dalis comes close, with her smoky mezzo, on the Bayreuth sets from '61 and '62.
> 
> Which brings me to the performance's major liability, the Parsifal of Fritz Uhl. His voice is clearly not in good condition - too much heldentenoring, I suspect - and phrase after phrase is spoiled by a simple inablility to sustain a singing tone. As long as he can sing out he makes a reasonable, if unexciting, effect; but the moment the volume drops and subtlety is required the support vanishes, the vibrato along with it, and the phrasing falls to pieces. The sickly effect is embarrassing against the powerhouse Kundry of Ludwig, who simply eats him for lunch, and in act 3 he can't begin to suggest the mature man made wise through compassion. I'd like to think that Karajan chose Uhl because he couldn't get anyone better, but his choice of a Parsifal for his later studio recording, the almost equally unsatisfactory Peter Hofmann, has me seriously doubting his artistic judgment (and not for the first time when it comes to his casting choices, I have to say).
> 
> On the whole I would call this a very good Parsifal, which must have been rewarding in the theater. But a "great" performance, as some claim? Back to Bayreuth and Knappertsbusch for that. The 1962 will do just fine. The real reason to own this one is Christa Ludwig, whom even a feeble pure fool can't sink. With her working for Klingsor, the old castrato should have captured both spear and grail.
> 
> There's an anomaly in this recording I should mention. In the opening scene of the opera, the voices you hear as Gurnemanz and Kundry are those of Jerome Hines and Martha Modl! Apparently something went wrong with the tape of the Vienna performance, that scene couldn't be used, and so a 1959 performance from Bayreuth was spliced in. Presumably it's Knappertsbusch conducting. Since Waechter was the Amfortas in both, it dovetails neatly.
> 
> This performance is available on both RCA and Opera d'Oro. I have the latter, and I doubt the sound is much better on the former. It's listenable, though the voices are a bit too forward (except when they drift upstage, which doesn't happen often). Now that I've heard this, I'm ready to part with it. If you're interested, PM me.


Interesting how opinions differ. Jed Distler in reviewing the set said this:

"Herbert von Karajan's 1961 Wiener Staatsoper production of Parsifal caused quite a stir, not only for his idiosyncratic stage directing and lighting, but for employing two sopranos in the role of Kundry. Elisabeth Höngen portrays the frenzied, haggard side of this character in Act 1, the opening scene of Act 2, and silently in Act 3 (except for two words). Christa Ludwig appears in Act 2's long second scene as Kundry transforms into a beautiful temptress. She gingerly approaches the notorious leaping interval pinpointing Kundry's mocking of Christ, yet is otherwise in excellent voice, though not as deeply into her part as she is in the 1972 studio Parsifal under Solti. Fritz Uhl is strong in the title role, while Walter Berry brings sonorous malevolence to Klingsor, and Waechter and Franc respectively sing Amfortas and Titurel with both conviction and beauty. Best of all is Hans Hotter, arguably the 20th century's greatest Gurnemanz. He sustains this lengthy role through his care with words, his unerring sense for interior drama, and his strong vocal presence."


----------



## Woodduck

DavidA said:


> Interesting how opinions differ. Jed Distler in reviewing the set said this:
> 
> Herbert von Karajan's 1961 Wiener Staatsoper production of Parsifal caused quite a stir, not only for his idiosyncratic stage directing and lighting, but for employing two sopranos in the role of Kundry. Elisabeth Höngen portrays the frenzied, haggard side of this character in Act 1, the opening scene of Act 2, and silently in Act 3 (except for two words). Christa Ludwig appears in Act 2's long second scene as Kundry transforms into a beautiful temptress. She gingerly approaches the notorious leaping interval pinpointing Kundry's mocking of Christ, yet is otherwise in excellent voice, though not as deeply into her part as she is in the 1972 studio Parsifal under Solti. Fritz Uhl is strong in the title role, while Walter Berry brings sonorous malevolence to Klingsor, and Waechter and Franc respectively sing Amfortas and Titurel with both conviction and beauty. Best of all is Hans Hotter, arguably the 20th century's greatest Gurnemanz. He sustains this lengthy role through his care with words, his unerring sense for interior drama, and his strong vocal presence.


Actually, David, if you read my review carefully you'll find that the major differences between Distler's review and mine is that I am more specific about the qualities of the singers. I could have been more specific still, but I'm not getting paid for my time as Distler is, and I didn't want to bore everyone with dissertations on vocal technique or minute comparisons. I think Distler and I (and you, from what you've said in past comments) agree that the performance is on the whole a very good one. My major reservations are two: first, I don't like the two-Kundrys idea - Wagner created a _single_ character with contradictory facets - and I have to wonder why Karajan felt the need to employ the very much over-the-hill Hoengen in particular; and second, I can't listen with any pleasure to the already (in his thirties) vocally threadbare Fritz Uhl failing in phrase after phrase to manage even a decent, resonant vocal tone, much less make real music. I've searched the reviews of this performance and found little actual criticism of Uhl, and having had many similar experiences looking at opera reviews over the years I am forced to conclude that most people reviewing opera, whether in performance or on recordings, know little or nothing about singing and can't tell when they're hearing the genuine article. That they've got themselves hired to talk about it must have some other explanation, and maybe it's best not to inquire too closely, but we can be sure that it involves money and politics. Here on TC we don't have to fear for our jobs for telling it like it is.

Uhl was the bantam-weight Tristan on the Solti recording of that opera, recorded a couple of years before this _Parsifal_. He was unimpressive there, but seemed in slightly fresher voice - a little younger, and less taxed by studio conditions. He began as a pleasant, strong lyric tenor, nothing close to heldentenor material, and ought to have stuck to lyric repertoire; he sang Erik in _Hollander_, and that should probably have been his heaviest Wagner role. Apparently there was a gap in the availability of dramatic tenors for Wagner in the late '50s; with Melchior retired, Suthaus and Svanholm too old, Vickers not yet singing much Wagner (only Siegmund, I think), and Thomas just short of his Bayreuth debut, Windgassen was carrying the ball at Bayreuth, and there were difficult casting decisions to be made. Uhl's feebleness leaves a gaping hole in the middle of this _Parsifal_, all the more obvious in that he's up against such paragons of their roles as Hotter and Ludwig. Were it not for the latter, and for Karajan's fine conducting, I think this recording would be unnecessary, since Hotter's Gurnemanz can be heard in worthier company elsewhere, and the others in the cast have been equalled or surpassed by a number of other singers on the numerous recordings of the opera now available.


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## DavidA

Woodduck said:


> Actually, David, if you read my review carefully you'll find that the major differences between Distler's review and mine is that I am more specific about the qualities of the singers. I could have been more specific still, but I'm not getting paid for my time as Distler presumably is, and I didn't want to bore everyone with dissertations on vocal technique or minute comparisons. I think Distler and I (and you, from what you've said in past comments) agree that the performance is on the whole a very good one. My major reservations are two: first, I don't like the two-Kundrys idea - Wagner created a _single_ character with contradictory facets - and I have to wonder why Karajan felt the need to employ the very much over-the-hill Hoengen in particular; and second, I can't listen with any pleasure to the already (in his thirties) vocally threadbare Fritz Uhl failing in phrase after phrase to manage even a decent, resonant vocal tone, much less make real music. I've searched the reviews of this performance and found little actual criticism of Uhl, and having had many similar experiences looking at opera reviews over the years I am forced to conclude that most people reviewing opera, whether in performance or on recordings, know little or nothing about singing and can't tell when they're hearing the genuine article. That they've got themselves hired to talk about it must have some other explanation, and maybe it's best not to inquire too closely, but we can be sure that it involves money and politics. Here on TC we don't have to fear for our jobs for telling it like it is.
> 
> Uhl was the bantam-weight Tristan on the Solti recording of that opera, recorded a couple of years before this _Parsifal_. He was unimpressive there, but seemed in slightly fresher voice - a little younger, and less taxed by studio conditions. He began as a pleasant, strong lyric tenor, nothing close to heldentenor material, and ought to have stuck to lyric repertoire; he sang Erik in _Hollander_, and that should probably have been his heaviest Wagner role. Apparently there was a gap in the availability of dramatic tenors for Wagner in the late '50s; with Melchior retired, Suthaus and Svanholm too old, Vickers not yet singing much Wagner (only Siegmund, I think), and Thomas just short of his Bayreuth debut, Windgassen was carrying the ball at Bayreuth, and there were difficult casting decisions to be made. Uhl's feebleness leaves a gaping hole in the middle of this _Parsifal_, all the more obvious in that he's up against such paragons of their roles as Hotter and Ludwig. Were it not for the latter, and for Karajan's fine conducting, I think this recording would be unnecessary, since Hotter's Gurnemanz can be heard in worthier company elsewhere, and the others in the cast have been equalled or surpassed by a number of other singers on the numerous recordings of the opera now available.


It was the sheer drama of Karajan's conducting in Act 2 - especially compared with the dull as ditchwater Kna of 1951 - that struck me on this recording. Sadly the orchestral sound is restricted. I don't think as badly of Uhl as you do in this role, especially compared to other tenors of the same period. I mean, although Windgassen was highly thought of it always seemed his voice was a size too small for the parts he was trying to sing. He managed to get away with it by vocal intelligence but the whole thing came really unstuck in Bohm's Tristan where he sounds very threadbare, especially besides Nilsson.

BTW I've heard plenty of criticism of Uhl especially for his role as Tristan. Robin Holloway said: "The lovers are a spider pair, a powerless male [Uhl] and a devouring female [Nilsson]"


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## Woodduck

DavidA said:


> It was the sheer drama of Karajan's conducting in Act 2 - especially compared with the dull as ditchwater Kna of 1951 - that struck me on this recording. Sadly the orchestral sound is restricted. I don't think as badly of Uhl as you do in this role, especially compared to other tenors of the same period. I mean, although Windgassen was highly thought of it always seemed his voice was a size too small for the parts he was trying to sing. He managed to get away with it by vocal intelligence but the whole thing came really unstuck in Bohm's Tristan where he sounds very threadbare, especially besides Nilsson.
> 
> BTW I've heard plenty of criticism of Uhl especially for his role as Tristan. Robin Holloway said: "The lovers are a spider pair, a powerless male [Uhl] and a devouring female [Nilsson]"


Windgassen is problematic for me too, and I don't care for his Parsifal or Lohengrin, both roles where I think a more beautiful basic sound is required. He lacked the darkness for Siegmund, but for some reason I like his Siegfried better, probably because despite his somewhat old-sounding timbre he brings such an exuberant spirit to it. His 1966 Tristan is a mixed bag; intelligent and reasonably effective in Act 1, a letdown in Act 2 where both power and lyrical beauty are needed, but - for me at least - quite powerful in Act 3, where he illuminates Tristan's physical and emotional suffering brilliantly and summons surprising reserves of strength. It isn't Vickers or Melchior vocally, but it's a strong character portrayal. Unlike Uhl, Windgassen doesn't shirk and always really _sings_, despite the diminishing appeal of his sound as he aged. His artistry of course has never been in doubt.

Uhl's Tristan did come in for deserved criticism; of course almost everyone's does! He wasn't helped by the absurd engineering of that recording, which managed to make even Nilsson sound small. He seems to have gotten a pass on this Parsifal; after hearing it I checked out a _Lohengrin_ on YouTube recorded a few years later in Buenos Aires and he sounded wholly inadequate. Apparently he went on singing for some years, and can be heard in performances of _Wozzeck_ and _Salome_ in the sorts of character parts that burned-out would-be heldentenors are likely to end up in.


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## DavidA

Speaking of Melchior, I was reading Solti's autobiography again where he says that Melchior "was not very musical. I was once amazed to hear an early recording in which he sang the 'Wintersturme' aria from Die Walkure in 10/8, although Wagner had written it in 9/8." He goes on to say that years later he heard Melchior sing it at a charity concert with piano accompaniment still singing in 10/8. Anyone else noticed this?


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## Allanmcf

Aren't we a fortunate lot indeed? Here we are dissecting and criticising to our heart's content about recordings from a generation ago when the opera listening public of the time would be lucky to hear once or twice in their lifetime the singers that we so easily dismiss. I would have counted myself very fortunate indeed to have been sitting in the audience in Vienna in 1961 or indeed Bayreuth in 1966 and listening to Herr Uhl or Herr Windgassen or even an "over the hill" Elisabeth Hoengen. Yes, we all pay our money and have our opinions but still!!

Opera as an experience is more than the sum of its parts and it's too easy to find fault somewhere. Of course the musical side is important but sometimes the drama can transcend such things. There are and always have been very few great singers and even fewer great singers who could act. I have listened to Uhl's Tristan while following the full score and while he hasn't, admittedly, got the greatest voice, he gets the drama of the part pretty well. The same can be said of Windgassen, probably more so.


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## Woodduck

DavidA said:


> Speaking of Melchior, I was reading Solti's autobiography again where he says that Melchior "was not very musical. I was once amazed to hear an early recording in which he sang the 'Wintersturme' aria from Die Walkure in 10/8, although Wagner had written it in 9/8." He goes on to say that years later he heard Melchior sing it at a charity concert with piano accompaniment still singing in 10/8. Anyone else noticed this?


Wow. Speaking as a musician, I honestly don't know how it would be possible to sing it in 10/8. In fact, if he's singing it with the accompaniment, it wouldn't be. I don't know what Solti's talking about.

Here's the man himself, singing the aria in question: 




I don't know about you, but that knocks me as flat as roadkill. It's true that Melchior wasn't the most careful musician and was often sloppy with note values, but when he was minding his manners he could be quite accurate, as here, in addition to being a vocal miracle. He certainly puts other heldentenors in perspective, to say the least.

Here's the official instruction manual on how to bring home a sacred spear and heal an incurable wound: 




Are we totally speechless? :lol:


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## Allanmcf

Woodduck said:


> Wow. Speaking as a musician, I honestly don't know how it would be possible to sing it in 10/8. In fact, if he's singing it with the accompaniment, it wouldn't be.
> 
> Here's the man himself, singing the aria in question:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know about you, but that knocks me as flat as roadkill. It's true that Melchior wasn't the most careful musician and was often sloppy with note values, but when he was minding his manners he could be quite accurate, in addition to being a vocal miracle. He certainly puts other heldentenors in perspective, to say the least.
> 
> Here's the official instruction manual on how to bring home a sacred spear and heal an incurable wound:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are we totally speechless? :lol:


Maybe he thought for a moment he was Dave Brubeck or Don Ellis even!!


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## DarkAngel

Woodduck said:


> Here's the official instruction manual on how to bring home a sacred spear and heal an incurable wound:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Are we totally speechless?* :lol:


OK that made take some action, I ordered another very cheap 10CD boxset at Amazon USA, this for Melchior.......


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## DarkAngel

I am starting to think you just buy every Myto CD from the 1950s for wagner, I just found a really good Dutchie by accident, and it is very cheap $6 Amazon USA......

1959 Sawallisch Bayreuth with George London (dutchman) Rysanek (senta) Greindl (daland) in very good sound. London has great voice and very expressive in delivery capturing the many tortured emotions of the mysterious Dutchman, a very pleasant surprise for me.....I mainly bought this for Rysanek but I am impressed with just about everything here


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## Woodduck

^^^This has been my preferred Dutchman for years, though I'm now taken as well with the Uhde/Varnay/Knappertsbusch. London and Uhde are my two favorite Dutchmen (except for Vermeer, but he doesn't sing). Rysanek projects that hysterical quality she's so good at, and Uhl was in better voice in 1959 than in his 1961 Parsifal. Soon after this, London and Rysanek recorded the opera in the studio under Dorati; I've never heard it, but Dorati's conducting is controversial. I'm guessing this live one is the better choice, given Sawallisch's energy.


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## Itullian

I'm getting em both then...........


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## Marschallin Blair

Woodduck said:


> ^^^This has been my preferred Dutchman for years, though I'm now taken as well with the Uhde/Varnay/Knappertsbusch. London and Uhde are my two favorite Dutchmen (except for Vermeer, but he doesn't sing). Rysanek projects that hysterical quality she's so good at, and Uhl was in better voice in 1959 than in his 1961 Parsifal. Soon after this, London and Rysanek recorded the opera in the studio under Dorati; I've never heard it, but Dorati's conducting is controversial. I'm guessing this live one is the better choice, given Sawallisch's energy.


London has one of the best openings in "_Die Friest ist um_" I've ever heard. I can't remember the performance, but it was on Decca. My friend played it for me and I was blown away. Absolutely chilling and ghost-like. Believable in every verisimilitudeish way.


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## Allanmcf

Woodduck said:


> ^^^This has been my preferred Dutchman for years, though I'm now taken as well with the Uhde/Varnay/Knappertsbusch. London and Uhde are my two favorite Dutchmen (except for Vermeer, but he doesn't sing). Rysanek projects that hysterical quality she's so good at, and Uhl was in better voice in 1959 than in his 1961 Parsifal. Soon after this, London and Rysanek recorded the opera in the studio under Dorati; I've never heard it, but Dorati's conducting is controversial. I'm guessing this live one is the better choice, given Sawallisch's energy.


The Dorati is ok but it is a typical studio recording that lacks the frisson of a live performance. London and Rysanek are in good voice but lack the edge that they bring to their live performances. I don't find Dorati that controversial. Solid conducting. 
I do wonder sometimes about so-called "professional" critics. Obviously they, like us all, have their favourites and I'm not convinced that objectivity is their watchword. Penelope Turing in her book New Bayreuth, gave Lorin Maazel's bayreuth 1968 Ring a bit of a hammering. Admittedly she was reviewing one cycle but I have just finished listening to this Ring and I find nothing exceptional in Mr. maazel's interpretation. Well paced, some thrilling moments, particularly in Siegfried, and some great singing make this, to my ears, a pretty good Ring if not one to die for. She said that Greindl was in poor voice as the Wanderer, well not for me he wasn't. Ticho Parly was a very solid Siegfried if a little mature in his interpretation. He didn't sound like a youngster but really gave it some power when it was required - Forging Song for example. If you were thinking about a Ring cycle as a fourth or fifth addition then I don't think you would be too disappointed.


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## DavidA

Woodduck said:


> Wow. Speaking as a musician, I honestly don't know how it would be possible to sing it in 10/8. In fact, if he's singing it with the accompaniment, it wouldn't be. *I don't know what Solti's talking about.*
> 
> Here's the man himself, singing the aria in question:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know about you, but that knocks me as flat as roadkill. It's true that Melchior wasn't the most careful musician and was often sloppy with note values, but when he was minding his manners he could be quite accurate, as here, in addition to being a vocal miracle. He certainly puts other heldentenors in perspective, to say the least.
> 
> Here's the official instruction manual on how to bring home a sacred spear and heal an incurable wound:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are we totally speechless? :lol:


But as a Wagner conductor he would surely know what he is talking about?


----------



## Woodduck

DavidA said:


> But as a Wagner conductor he would surely know what he is talking about?


I don't care that _he_ knows what he's talking about. He hasn't made it clear to _us_ what he's talking about. There is no such thing as 10/8 time (unless Stravinsky sneaks it into _Sacre_). The implication is that Melchior gets an extra beat in there somewhere. But that is impossible if the singing is in time with the accompaniment. Melchior recorded the aria at least three times commercially and there are, I believe, some live recordings. He also sings it (abridged) in a movie (this is delightful):






This is a guy in his sixties. Unbelievable. No problem with rhythm in any version I've heard. I'm sure Sir George heard something and meant something. I guess it'll have to be a mystery forever.


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## DavidA

Woodduck said:


> I don't care that _he_ knows what he's talking about. He hasn't made it clear to _us_ what he's talking about. There is no such thing as 10/8 time (unless Stravinsky sneaks it into _Sacre_). The implication is that Melchior gets an extra beat in there somewhere. But that is impossible if the singing is in time with the accompaniment. Melchior recorded the aria at least three times commercially and there are, I believe, some live recordings. He also sings it (abridged) in a movie (this is delightful):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a guy in his sixties. Unbelievable. No problem with rhythm in any version I've heard. I'm sure Sir George heard something and meant something. I guess it'll have to be a mystery forever.


I would have thought it was obvious what he was talking about. He heard Melchior singing it in 10/8. Presumably he heard something we didn't!


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## Woodduck

DavidA said:


> I would have thought it was obvious what he was talking about. He heard Melchior singing it in 10/8. Presumably he heard something we didn't!


Please, oh please! No, David, no _no_ NO! Solti did _not_ hear Melchior singing "Wintersturme" in 10/8 time. It is a physical - nay, a _metaphysical_ impossibility to sing "Wintersturme," accompanied by Wagner's orchestra, or a piano reduction thereof, in 10/8 time unless you cannot hear, cannot read music, cannot count, and have in general no idea who you are, what you are doing, or why you are here! This is God speaking, David, and He is revealing to your privileged ear a profound secret concerning the way His universe is constructed: "Wintersturme" is constructed in nine beats to the bar, and if you are singing it to the accompaniment and not getting progressively behind, ending in sheer chaos akin to that which existed before He moved His Divine Selfness over the face of the deep, you are forced to sing it in nine beats to the bar - exactly the way Melchior does, superbly, in every one of the several recordings you and I have heard.

Why are you attempting to argue an impossible position on the basis of an enigmatic comment made by someone about someone doing something you didn't hear? Neither you nor I nor anyone else reading the remark you report Solti having made can find that remark anything but baffling, given the way this universe works. Why don't we just leave it at that, get out our Melchior recordings, and discover what superb musicality he was actually capable of?


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## Itullian

Still waitin for my Lohengrin.........


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## DavidA

Woodduck said:


> Please, oh please! No, David, no _no_ NO! Solti did _not_ hear Melchior singing "Wintersturme" in 10/8 time. It is a physical - nay, a _metaphysical_ impossibility to sing "Wintersturme," accompanied by Wagner's orchestra, or a piano reduction thereof, in 10/8 time unless you cannot hear, cannot read music, cannot count, and have in general no idea who you are, what you are doing, or why you are here! This is God speaking, David, and He is revealing to your privileged ear a profound secret concerning the way His universe is constructed: "Wintersturme" is constructed in nine beats to the bar, and if you are singing it to the accompaniment and not getting progressively behind, ending in sheer chaos akin to that which existed before He moved His Divine Selfness over the face of the deep, you are forced to sing it in nine beats to the bar - exactly the way Melchior does, superbly, in every one of the several recordings you and I have heard.
> 
> Why are you attempting to argue an impossible position on the basis of an enigmatic comment made by someone about someone doing something you didn't hear? Neither you nor I nor anyone else reading the remark you report Solti having made can find that remark anything but baffling, given the way this universe works. Why don't we just leave it at that, get out our Melchior recordings, and discover what superb musicality he was actually capable of?


I can certainly be assured that it is NOT God speaking! Why on earth re you talking in those terms! The construction of Wintersturme is quite besides the point. The remark is in Solti's memoirs so I cannot for the life of me see why he'd put it in if he didn't hear it! Unless you're saying the man who conducted so much Wagner had a faulty ear? Why on earth you bring in arguments about the way the universe works is quite beyond me. As a scientist I do know that knowing the way the universe works has nothing to do with Melchior singing in a certain way and Solti hearing it! My wife has accompanied singers many times and knows a bit about patching over for them when they get out of time! Conductors also do that! Solti also says in his autobiography that del Monaco was not the most musical of singers despite "a splendid dramatic tenor voice". He expected conductor, orchestra and singers to follow him." Whether you or I heard Melchior singing 10/8 Solti is saying he did! Anyway, as neither of us can prove the point leave it at that. It doesn't seem worth arguing about. But it is interesting that John Culshaw in Ring Resounding remarked that he was unable to find the Walter Walkure Act 3 irreproachable as some do "as Melchior, in spite of the excellence of his voice as such, appears to take rhythmical licence beyond all reasonable grounds."


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## Woodduck

DavidA said:


> I can certainly be assured that it is NOT God speaking! Why on earth re you talking in those terms! The construction of Wintersturme is quite besides the point. The remark is in Solti's memoirs so I cannot for the life of me see why he'd put it in if he didn't hear it! Unless you're saying the man who conducted so much Wagner had a faulty ear? Why on earth you bring in arguments about the way the universe works is quite beyond me. As a scientist I do know that knowing the way the universe works has nothing to do with Melchior singing in a certain way and Solti hearing it! My wife has accompanied singers many times and knows a bit about patching over for them when they get out of time! Conductors also do that! Solti also says in his autobiography that del Monaco was not the most musical of singers despite "a splendid dramatic tenor voice". He expected conductor, orchestra and singers to follow him." Whether you or I heard Melchior singing 10/8 Solti is saying he did! Anyway, as neither of us can prove the point leave it at that. It doesn't seem worth arguing about. But it is interesting that John Culshaw in Ring Resounding remarked that he was unable to find the Walter Walkure Act 3 irreproachable as some do "as Melchior, in spite of the excellence of his voice as such, appears to take rhythmical licence beyond all reasonable grounds."


It's just so depressing when my attempts at humor fall flat. But enough about me.

The proof of the musical pudding is in the listening. Melchior's recordings are numerous. Here is the aria in dispute.






























There are no rhythmic anomalies in any of these renditions.This is obviously how Melchior felt and sang this music. Please invite all your professional musician friends over and play these for them. Ask them if they can locate a single bar in 10/8 time. Then get back to me.

As I said: "I'm sure Sir George heard something and meant something. I guess it'll have to be a mystery forever." But it sure as hell wasn't an aria sung in an impossible 10/8 time.

Now shall we just dispel our captious little frowns, stop genuflecting before dead conductors, and enjoy the fabulous Lauritz Melchior bringing us Siegmund as we shall never hear him sung again?


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## DavidA

Woodduck said:


> It's just so depressing when my attempts at humor fall flat. But enough about me.
> 
> The proof of the musical pudding is in the listening. Melchior's recordings are numerous. Here is the aria in dispute.
> 
> 
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> 
> There are no rhythmic anomalies in any of these renditions.This is obviously how Melchior felt and sang this music. Please invite all your professional musician friends over and play these for them. Ask them if they can locate a single bar in 10/8 time. Then get back to me.
> 
> As I said: "I'm sure Sir George heard something and meant something. I guess it'll have to be a mystery forever." But it sure as hell wasn't an aria sung in an impossible 10/8 time.
> 
> Now shall we just dispel our captious little frowns, stop genuflecting before dead conductors, and enjoy the fabulous Lauritz Melchior bringing us Siegmund as we shall never hear him sung again?


Genuflecting before dead conductors? Where on earth do you get that one from? Does quoting someone's autobiography amount to genuflecting? Or should we concentrate on genuflecting before dead singers?


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## DarkAngel

DarkAngel said:


> I am starting to think you just buy every Myto CD from the 1950s for wagner, I just found a really good Dutchie by accident, and it is very cheap $6 Amazon USA......
> 
> 1959 Sawallisch Bayreuth with George London (dutchman) Rysanek (senta) Greindl (daland) in very good sound. London has great voice and very expressive in delivery capturing the many tortured emotions of the mysterious Dutchman, a very pleasant surprise for me.....I mainly bought this for Rysanek but I am impressed with just about everything here





> ^^^This has been my preferred Dutchman for years, though I'm now taken as well with the Uhde/Varnay/Knappertsbusch. London and Uhde are my two favorite Dutchmen (except for Vermeer, but he doesn't sing). Rysanek projects that hysterical quality she's so good at, and Uhl was in better voice in 1959 than in his 1961 Parsifal. Soon after this, London and Rysanek recorded the opera in the studio under Dorati; I've never heard it, but Dorati's conducting is controversial. I'm guessing this live one is the better choice, given Sawallisch's energy.


During one of my recent wagner buying sprees I got a cheap live 1960 Walhall Dutchman also with Rysanek and London but conducted here by Schippers with otherwise different cast. I would have been thrilled and content with this had I not also later gotten the Sawallich Myto pictured above. The Myto is just a bit better overall and Sawallisch is really a fine Wagner conductor........because both were very cheap I will welcome both to my collection


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## Woodduck

DavidA said:


> Genuflecting before dead conductors? Where on earth do you get that one from? Does quoting someone's autobiography amount to genuflecting? Or should we concentrate on genuflecting before dead singers?


We should concentrate on _listening_ to dead singers. All that matters is how they _actually sang_. It's there, in those sound clips. Solti's memoirs don't thrill the soul. Melchior's singing does. Ya got a problem wit dat?


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## Itullian

Woodduck said:


> It's just so depressing when my attempts at humor fall flat. But enough about me.
> 
> The proof of the musical pudding is in the listening. Melchior's recordings are numerous. Here is the aria in dispute.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> There are no rhythmic anomalies in any of these renditions.This is obviously how Melchior felt and sang this music. Please invite all your professional musician friends over and play these for them. Ask them if they can locate a single bar in 10/8 time. Then get back to me.
> 
> As I said: "I'm sure Sir George heard something and meant something. I guess it'll have to be a mystery forever." But it sure as hell wasn't an aria sung in an impossible 10/8 time.
> 
> Now shall we just dispel our captious little frowns, stop genuflecting before dead conductors, and enjoy the fabulous Lauritz Melchior bringing us Siegmund as we shall never hear him sung again?


I listened to the first utube above and Melchior was great.
BUT, TRAUBEL, WOW, what a great singer. Amazing!!!!
And AT actually relaxed a couple of times there.


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## Woodduck

Traubel rarely gets mentioned when talk turns to dramatic sopranos. It's unfair. She wasn't the ultimate in musicianship, and didn't have a high C, but what a voice! She kept Wagner going in New York after Flagstad went back to Norway. Everyone's favorite manager Rudolf Bing kicked her out of the Met because she insisted on doing popular stuff and making movies.


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## Itullian

Woodduck said:


> Traubel rarely gets mentioned when talk turns to dramatic sopranos. It's unfair. She wasn't the ultimate in musicianship, and didn't have a high C, but what a voice! She kept Wagner going in New York after Flagstad went back to Norway. Everyone's favorite manager Rudolf Bing *kicked her out of the Met because she insisted on doing popular stuff and making movies*.


That's a shame. I can see why she did though. She looks like a real beauty.


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## Woodduck

Itullian said:


> That's a shame. I can see why she did though. She looks like a real beauty.


I just listened to that _Walkure_ duet again. Good God! Makes me wish I'd been born fifty years earlier.

Here's a bit of Traubel's non-classical work.









 (she was American - St. Louis gal - and the accent was fake, but her ancestry was German)

She grew rather stout by the 1950s and didn't cut a glamourous figure, but she was fun and funny, and was popular in musical films. Imagine a time when, with a beautiful voice and a great laugh, a matronly opera singer could become a movie star. It didn't please Rudolf Bing though. I'd say he had too much starch in his underwear.


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## Itullian

Itullian said:


> Still waitin for my Lohengrin.........


Got it ..................


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## Itullian

Woodduck said:


> I just listened to that _Walkure_ duet again. Good God! Makes me wish I'd been born fifty years earlier.
> 
> Here's a bit of Traubel's non-classical work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (she was American - St. Louis gal - and the accent was fake, but her ancestry was German)
> 
> She grew rather stout by the 1950s and didn't cut a glamourous figure, but she was fun and funny, and was popular in musical films. Imagine a time when, with a beautiful voice and a great laugh, a matronly opera singer could become a movie star. It didn't please Rudolf Bing though. I'd say he had too much starch in his underwear.


I thought she was amazing in that audio.


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## Itullian

Woodduck said:


> I just listened to that _Walkure_ duet again. Good God! Makes me wish I'd been born fifty years earlier.
> 
> Here's a bit of Traubel's non-classical work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (she was American - St. Louis gal - and the accent was fake, but her ancestry was German)
> 
> She grew rather stout by the 1950s and didn't cut a glamourous figure, but she was fun and funny, and was popular in musical films. Imagine a time when, with a beautiful voice and a great laugh, a matronly opera singer could become a movie star. It didn't please Rudolf Bing though. I'd say he had too much starch in his underwear.


Great clips. Thanks!!


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## Itullian

Itullian said:


> Still waitin for my Lohengrin.........


it came, but the discs are Gotterdammerung NOT Lohengrin


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## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> it came, but the discs are Gotterdammerung NOT Lohengrin


What the frak!!!!!! Must have been Loge playing cruel tricks with us mortals..............


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## DavidA

Woodduck said:


> We should concentrate on _listening_ to dead singers. All that matters is how they _actually sang_. It's there, in those sound clips. Solti's memoirs don't thrill the soul. Melchior's singing does. Ya got a problem wit dat?


Lauritz Melchior was not only the greatest of his time but also, in all probability, the greatest Wagnerian tenor who ever lived. He may not have been the greatest actor, but when he lifted his trumpet of a voice (with the feeling that untold decibels were still in reserve) he produced a unique sound that still lives in many memories, and also on recordings with Kirsten Flagstad, Frida Leider, Helen Traubel and others.
He was also quite a character who didn't take his singing too seriously. I mean, who can but admire a guy who falls asleep after he had 'died' on stage in Tristan. Apparently Flagstaff had to kick him as he was snoring! Or a guy who plays a hand of cards with the stagehands during Parsifal to pass the time. Or the story of when the swan went without him in Lohengrin when he looked at the audience and said: "When does the next swan go?" Sounds a real good guy even if he did (or did not) sing Wintersturme in 10/8!


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## Woodduck

DavidA said:


> Lauritz Melchior was not only the greatest of his time but also, in all probability, the greatest Wagnerian tenor who ever lived. He may not have been the greatest actor, but when he lifted his trumpet of a voice (with the feeling that untold decibels were still in reserve) he produced a unique sound that still lives in many memories, and also on recordings with Kirsten Flagstad, Frida Leider, Helen Traubel and others.
> He was also quite a character who didn't take his singing too seriously. I mean, who can but admire a guy who falls asleep after he had 'died' on stage in Tristan. Apparently Flagstaff had to kick him as he was snoring! Or a guy who plays a hand of cards with the stagehands during Parsifal to pass the time. Or the story of when the swan went without him in Lohengrin when he looked at the audience and said: "When does the next swan go?" Sounds a real good guy even if he did (or did not) sing Wintersturme in 10/8!


Melchior, the great Dane, enjoyed life. He was indeed a character! But you do him an injustice when you say that he didn't take his singing seriously. All you have to do is listen to him, in recording after recording, to know otherwise. His career was long, beginning in 1914 and lasting past mid-century. in the course of it there are some funny stories of pranks and whatnot, some accounts of human foibles. Did he play cards backstage? Well, Flagstad knitted. We might be surprised at all the things singers do when they aren't on. The _Lohengrin_ anecdote, by the way, was first attributed to Leo Slezak. It's one of those apocryphal tales which probably, from the absurd sound of it, never occurred at all.

Melchior's spirit overflowed with vitality, and the recordings he left us reveal an artist whose fervor and dedication to the spirit of the music he sang dwarfs others, none of whom could fill his shoes. That incredible voice wasn't just a big noise; it was technically well-grounded, there was a huge heart and a good brain behind it, and you can feel purpose and meaning in every note. No one brought such fervor to Walter's Prize Song. No one made Parsifal's agony in Klingsor's garden more gut-wrenching. He recorded excerpts from _Otello_ that match in intensity and outdo in vocal power any ever recorded. He was a great vocal artist. There was nothing unserious about that.

A "real good guy"? Absolutely.


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## DavidA

Schonberg reports that Melchior became bored with singing Wagnerian roles so, knowing he was irreplaceable, drove stage managers crazy towards the end of his career. "He generally would have a card game going with the stage hands, and sometimes he would arrive on stage just in time for his cue. Or at other times he just about wouldn't. His sopranos were afraid that when he had nothing to do on stage he would fall asleep. he once did, during the last act of Tristan, and Flagstaff had to poke him to stop his snores during her liebestod. Melchior's behaviour in Parsifal was uniquely his own. In his latter days he refused to follow the stage directions, which call for possible to stand voiceless, motionless, and rapt during the entire grail scene..... He would sidle to the wings, imperceptibly, without appearing to move: quite a trick......Soon he would be in the wings, presumably picking up his card game!"


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## Woodduck

DavidA said:


> Schonberg reports that Melchior became bored with singing Wagnerian roles so, knowing he was irreplaceable, drove stage managers crazy towards the end of his career. "He generally would have a card game going with the stage hands, and sometimes he would arrive on stage just in time for his cue. Or at other times he just about wouldn't. His sopranos were afraid that when he had nothing to do on stage he would fall asleep. he once did, during the last act of Tristan, and Flagstaff had to poke him to stop his snores during her liebestod. Melchior's behaviour in Parsifal was uniquely his own. In his latter days he refused to follow the stage directions, which call for possible to stand voiceless, motionless, and rapt during the entire grail scene..... He would sidle to the wings, imperceptibly, without appearing to move: quite a trick......Soon he would be in the wings, presumably picking up his card game!"


Some of us look to great artists to appreciate and celebrate their achievements. Others magnify their personal foibles in an effort to cut them down to size.

We all focus on what's important to us, don't we?


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## DavidA

Woodduck said:


> Some of us look to great artists to appreciate and celebrate their achievements. Others magnify their personal foibles in an effort to cut them down to size.
> 
> We all focus on what's important to us, don't we?


Some of us realise they were human just like the rest of us! And we rejoice in the fact of their humanity while admiring their artistry.


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## Marschallin Blair

DavidA said:


> Some of us realise they were human just like the rest of us! And we rejoice in the fact of their humanity while admiring their artistry.


I think that about prophets from the Levant- minus the artistry of course.

Only great singers can perform miracles.


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## Woodduck

DavidA said:


> Some of us realise they were human just like the rest of us! And we rejoice in the fact of their humanity while admiring their artistry.


 We all know they were human. But some of us also know what makes them _unlike_ "the rest of us" - and it's for _that_, not for their personal flaws (real or imputed), that we remember them and will be talking about them till the end of time.

The way in which you have "rejoiced in the humanity" of people like Richard Wagner and Maria Callas - by attacking their characters whenever you feel that others are appreciating them too much - has given new meaning to the word "rejoice." Now we can add Lauritz Melchior, the unserious singer who can't count nine beats to the bar, to the list of those in whose humanity you rejoice.

All this rejoicing in humanity is hard on my aging heart. I think it could use a dose of greatness. Maybe a little Wagner, sung by Callas or Melchior.


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## DavidA

Marschallin Blair said:


> Only great singers can perform miracles.


Well if you think that, you have more faith than I have! Maybe they are gods to you but they are artists to me!


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## Marschallin Blair

DavidA said:


> Well if you think that, you have more faith than I have! Maybe they are gods to you but they are artists to me!


Spiritual things are spiritually discerned, David.

I'm as monotheistic as they come. _;D_


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## DavidA

Woodduck said:


> We all know they were human. But some of us also know what makes them _unlike_ "the rest of us" - and it's for _that_, not for their personal flaws (real or imputed), that we remember them and will be talking about them till the end of time.
> 
> The way in which you have "rejoiced in the humanity" of people like Richard Wagner and Maria Callas - by attacking their characters whenever you feel that others are appreciating them too much - has given new meaning to the word "rejoice." Now we can add Lauritz Melchior, the unserious singer who can't count nine beats to the bar, to the list of those in whose humanity you rejoice.
> 
> All this rejoicing in humanity is hard on my aging heart. I think it could use a dose of greatness. Maybe a little Wagner, sung by Callas or Melchior.


Sorry to upset you but I have never denied these people have something special. But that does not make them 'gods' to set on a pedestal. I have known brilliant scientists who outside their given field are just as fallible as the next man. Remember the stage deals with fiction not fact. If we want to live in that world (as I myself do during a performance) then fine but I'm also a historian and have to know the facts. The fact these people were human with all the flaws (and sometimes more flaws) that other human beings does not make me appreciate their talent less. The fact that Heifetz and Horowitz were (from those who knew them) less than perfect human beings (to say the least) does not diminish my admiration for their incredible talent. I am a great admirerer of Callas' art but why do we have to attribute some sort of god-like status to her? Melchior's antics don't diminish him as a singer in my eyes - in fact they make him more endearing! 
I have just as much admiration (perhaps a lot more) for the surgeon who gave my aged mother a new hip and relieved her of so much suffering as I have for an opera singer. That does not make him a 'god' but someone whom I thankful for for his skill. I'm also thankful for our postman who delivers the Mail on time rain, hail or shine as I'm thankful when I see good parents bringing their kids up well. As I'm thankful for talented musicians when I sit and relax and listen to them. I love it! But I personally just don't give them some mythical quality above everyone else.


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## Allanmcf

I kind of thought that this was a discussion forum for classical music and not a theology seminar. Let's keep one kind of fairy tale out of opera and concentrate on the fairy tales we see on stage!!


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## Marschallin Blair

DavidA said:


> Sorry to upset you but I have never denied these people have something special. But that does not make them 'gods' to set on a pedestal. I have known brilliant scientists who outside their given field are just as fallible as the next man. Remember the stage deals with fiction not fact. If we want to live in that world (as I myself do during a performance) then fine but I'm also a historian and have to know the facts. The fact these people were human with all the flaws (and sometimes more flaws) that other human beings does not make me appreciate their talent less. The fact that Heifetz and Horowitz were (from those who knew them) less than perfect human beings (to say the least) does not diminish my admiration for their incredible talent. I am a great admirerer of Callas' art but why do we have to attribute some sort of god-like status to her? Melchior's antics don't diminish him as a singer in my eyes - in fact they make him more endearing!
> I have just as much admiration (perhaps a lot more) for the surgeon who gave my aged mother a new hip and relieved her of so much suffering as I have for an opera singer. That does not make him a 'god' but someone whom I thankful for for his skill. I'm also thankful for our postman who delivers the Mail on time rain, hail or shine as I'm thankful when I see good parents bringing their kids up well. As I'm thankful for talented musicians when I sit and relax and listen to them. I love it! But I personally just don't give them some mythical quality above everyone else.


I am of course enthralled and grateful for the modern amenities of medical science, and for the skilled surgeon at Johns Hopkins who keeps people alive- but very much _unlike_ a great doctor, a great 'artist' gives people a glimpse of the sublime and the beautiful- and hence a _reason_ for existence.

Grey isn't the color of hope, but rather 'pink.' _;D_


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## DavidA

Marschallin Blair said:


> I am of course enthralled and grateful for the modern amenities of medical science, and for the skilled surgeon at Johns Hopkins who keeps people alive- but very much _unlike_ a great doctor, a great 'artist' gives people a glimpse of the sublime and the beautiful- and hence a _reason_ for existence.
> 
> Grey isn't the color or hope, but rather 'pink.' _;D_


At least the doctor may keep you alive to enjoy the glimpse of the sublime! But that's not the point. The point is that for all their skills / talents all these folk are just people with all the faults and failing of everyone else. And as someone has pointed out we are on the subject of historical Wagner recordings.


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## Marschallin Blair

DavidA said:


> At least the doctor may keep you alive to enjoy the glimpse of the sublime! But that's not the point. The point is that for all their skills / talents all these folk are just people with all the faults and failing of everyone else. And as someone has pointed out we are on the subject of historical Wagner recordings.


Okay, Wagner it is then. _;D_

Wilhelm Furtwangler, Kirsten Flagstad, and Blanche Thebom give me a taste of the sublime in the Act II love music of _Tristan und Isolde._

The artistry touches and inspires me in an emotional and intellectual way that no book can.

A human being is more than just a biological constellation of cells- and 'life,' for me at any rate, is more than just merely surviving and staying alive.

Wagner and his singing entourage is that monumental 'extra' that I live for.

Life is about staying alive, certainly. But that's a merely necessary and not a sufficient condition for an enlightened and happy 'existence.' 'Life' is about staying alive and 'flourishing'- as Aristotle so persuasively argued twenty-five centuries ago.

Great artists help me see what life should and ought to be. They help me appreciate the best in others and in the world around me. They turn black-and-white 'monochrome' to SuperCinemascope, Technicolor 'vibrancy.' They make me want to be more colorful, engaged, and vital.

Who 'wouldn't' choose Oz over Kansas?










Okay, Act II, _Tristan_, night time music! Hit it Jarmila!


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## Dedalus

DavidA said:


> Sorry to upset you but I have never denied these people have something special. But that does not make them 'gods' to set on a pedestal. I have known brilliant scientists who outside their given field are just as fallible as the next man. Remember the stage deals with fiction not fact. If we want to live in that world (as I myself do during a performance) then fine but I'm also a historian and have to know the facts. The fact these people were human with all the flaws (and sometimes more flaws) that other human beings does not make me appreciate their talent less. The fact that Heifetz and Horowitz were (from those who knew them) less than perfect human beings (to say the least) does not diminish my admiration for their incredible talent. I am a great admirerer of Callas' art but why do we have to attribute some sort of god-like status to her? Melchior's antics don't diminish him as a singer in my eyes - in fact they make him more endearing!
> I have just as much admiration (perhaps a lot more) for the surgeon who gave my aged mother a new hip and relieved her of so much suffering as I have for an opera singer. That does not make him a 'god' but someone whom I thankful for for his skill. I'm also thankful for our postman who delivers the Mail on time rain, hail or shine as I'm thankful when I see good parents bringing their kids up well. As I'm thankful for talented musicians when I sit and relax and listen to them. I love it! But I personally just don't give them some mythical quality above everyone else.


This is very much how I see things. I actually was confused when Woodduck starting talking about imputing flaws, because up to that point, I hadn't thought of the things stated about Melchior as flaws. I just saw them as very interesting personality traits, with no real value judgement. I agree that hearing those stories makes me more interested in Melchior, not less. As a relatively new classical and opera listener, I was unaware of this person, but hearing him spoken of both endearingly and frankly about his greatness and his quirks creates in me an idea of him as a well rounded rounded person, not a two dimensional cutout from a Dickens novel.

I completely agree with equating brilliant performers, composers, and artists of any kind with skilled people like doctors, scientists, or even economists and athletes. All these people have in common that they've worked very hard and practiced at what they love, or at least toward what they're inclined to make a living off of, and hundreds or millions of people benefit from what they do. Listening to music creates in my mind feelings of wonder, sadness, regret, and dozens of other feelings, and at it's best can fill me with feelings of ecstasy and the divine.. However, those are just feelings inside of our head, and you can't take a subjective feeling and assume the music itself is divine. It really is just the way that sound waves hit our ears, and the way our brain responds to that, that gives us this great feeling. It's one of the things that makes life worth living for me, since I highly enjoy it, but there is no reason to think there is anything actually divine, special, supernatural, or anything that makes it more pedestal worthy than anything else.


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## Woodduck

Dedalus said:


> This is very much how I see things. * I actually was confused when Woodduck starting talking about imputing flaws, because up to that point, I hadn't thought of the things stated about Melchior as flaws. I just saw them as very interesting personality traits, with no real value judgement.* I agree that hearing those stories makes me more interested in Melchior, not less. As a relatively new classical and opera listener, I was unaware of this person, but hearing him spoken of both endearingly and frankly about his greatness and his quirks creates in me an idea of him as a well rounded rounded person, not a two dimensional cutout from a Dickens novel.
> 
> I completely agree with equating brilliant performers, composers, and artists of any kind with skilled people like doctors, scientists, or even economists and athletes. All these people have in common that they've worked very hard and practiced at what they love, or at least toward what they're inclined to make a living off of, and hundreds or millions of people benefit from what they do. Listening to music creates in my mind feelings of wonder, sadness, regret, and dozens of other feelings, and at it's best can fill me with feelings of ecstasy and the divine. However, those are just feelings inside of our head, and you can't take a subjective feeling and assume the music itself is divine. It really is just the way that sound waves hit our ears, and the way our brain responds to that, that gives us this great feeling. It's one of the things that makes life worth living for me, since I highly enjoy it, but there is no reason to think there is anything actually divine, special, supernatural, or anything that makes it more pedestal worthy than anything else.


Allow me to remind you and anyone else who may have just dropped into this conversation that this diversion from the subject of the thread began with DavidA's citation of conductor George Solti claiming that Lauritz Melchior (who did indeed make many "historic Wagner recordings," to keep our eye on the subject) sang the "Wintersturme" aria from _Die Walkure_ in 10/8 time instead of Wagner's indicated 9/8. I, a professional musician, knowing this to be an impossibilty, said so, and offered several recordings of the aria by Melchior which refute that absurd notion. This was not sufficient reason for DavidA to question the validity of his sources, since he not only continued to argue with me, pointlessly and with no evidence of his own, but made the further claim that Melchior was not serious about his music. I cited Melchior's many magnificent recordings and very long career to refute this claim - but, not wanting to deal with this point either, DavidA then proceeded to trot out anecdotes he'd read which show careless or irresponsible behavior on Melchior's part. It takes no unusual perceptiveness to see that this is frivolous - argument for argument's sake - and that it gratuitously seeks to undermine Melchior's stature for no other reason, apparently, than to irritate me, at the same time certainly irritating anyone who came here to discuss the subject of the thread.

I think that if you will review the relevant posts, you will no longer be confused about my objection to the pointless, partly inaccurate, and thus irresponsible criticisms being offered of this great singer. I would be delighted to keep the focus on Melchior's historic recordings, where it belongs, and all I am contending here is that it is the _art_ of Melchior that matters in this discussion, should matter to us ultimately, and will matter to history. The problem here is not that cute stories are being told about Melchior; anecdotes about his mischievous behavior are not in themselves offensive and would actually be charming, were they not offered in a manner that seeks to demean his art, as has most certainly been done here. And, frankly, it is offensive to be told that, because I do not want to see a great singer's work misrepresented and trivialized, I am according that artist "godlike" status. Apparently it isn't enough to insult a professional musician by claiming - _falsely _- that he cannot count nine beats to the bar and that he was not a serious artist. It seems necessary also to accuse those who defend him of holding pseudo-religious beliefs they do not hold.

I sincerely hope that this clarification will serve to end this ridiculous pseudo-argument and get the discussion back on the art of the great historic musicians we are presumably here to talk about. But I will say this: if I encounter any nonsense uttered about any musician's work - anything that defies reason and is offered without evidence - I will do my best to show why it is false. I presume we are all here in hopes of learning about music, and not just talking about it. Many here can make a variety of contributions to that learning, but will hardly be encouraged to do so if they receive silly and irrelevant arguments in return.


----------



## DavidA

Woodduck said:


> Allow me to remind you and anyone else who may have just dropped into this conversation that this diversion from the subject of the thread began with DavidA's citation of conductor George Solti claiming that Lauritz Melchior (who did indeed make many "historic Wagner recordings," to keep our eye on the subject) sang the "Wintersturme" aria from _Die Walkure_ in 10/8 time instead of Wagner's indicated 9/8. *I, a professional musician, knowing this to be an impossibilty, said so, and offered several recordings of the aria by Melchior which refute that absurd notion. *This was not sufficient reason for* DavidA to question the validity of his sources*, since he not only continued to argue with me, pointlessly and with no evidence of his own, but made the further claim that Melchior was not serious about his music. I cited Melchior's many magnificent recordings and very long career to refute this claim - but, not wanting to deal with this point either, DavidA then proceeded to trot out anecdotes he'd read which show careless or irresponsible behavior on Melchior's part. It takes no unusual perceptiveness to see that *this is frivolous* - argument for argument's sake - and that it gratuitously seeks to undermine Melchior's stature for no other reason, apparently, than to irritate me, at the same time certainly irritating anyone who came here to discuss the subject of the thread.
> 
> I think that if you will review the relevant posts, you will no longer be confused about my objection to the pointless, partly inaccurate, and thus irresponsible criticisms being offered of this great singer. I would be delighted to keep the focus on Melchior's historic recordings, where it belongs, and all I am contending here is that it is the _art_ of Melchior that matters in this discussion, should matter to us ultimately, and will matter to history. The problem here is not that cute stories are being told about Melchior; anecdotes about his mischievous behavior are not in themselves offensive and would actually be charming, were they not offered in a manner that seeks to demean his art, as has most certainly been done here. And, frankly, it is offensive to be told that, because I do not want to see a great singer's work misrepresented and trivialized, I am according that artist "godlike" status. Apparently it isn't enough to insult a professional musician by claiming - _falsely _- that he cannot count nine beats to the bar and that he was not a serious artist. It seems necessary also to accuse those who defend him of holding pseudo-religious beliefs they do not hold.
> 
> I sincerely hope that this clarification will serve to end this ridiculous pseudo-argument and get the discussion back on the art of the great historic musicians we are presumably here to talk about. But I will say this: if I encounter any nonsense uttered about any musician's work - *anything that defies reason and is offered without evidence *- I will do my best to show why it is false. I presume we are all here in hopes of learning about music, and not just talking about it. Many here can make a variety of contributions to that learning, but will hardly be encouraged to do so if they receive silly and irrelevant arguments in return.


The source is Solti's own autobiography ('Solti on Solti' p.184). Solti was a professional musician too, one of the leading conductors of the time in Wagner, and obviously as he said it he thought it was possible! That was my source. If you disagree with Solti then fine but my source for the quote is impeccable - Solti himself! Whether he was right to wrong I don't know. I am just repeating what I read. But as I said it's pointless continuing to discuss it as neither if us was there when Solti heard it.
The source for the Melchior stories was the distinguished critic Harold Schonberg ('The Virtuosi' pp.288-289). Schonberg believes (as I do) that Melchior was the greatest Wagnerian tenor of all time. i find them endearing (not frivolous) as obviously Schonberg himself does. Just put them in to raise a smile and I'm glad they have encouraged our friend Dedalus to investigate the vocal wonder that was Melchior. From what I've read of Melchior he enjoyed a laugh as much as the next man. Sorry if they offend you.


----------



## Allanmcf

It's to DavidA and Woodduck's credit that they are so passionate about music but it's also important to remember that it's only music after all and not a matter of life and death. I know, some would say it's more important than that!! But it's not. It is a source of huge pleasure to many but I have friends who if they went a week without hearing music of any kind would find it no hardship. I myself can't go half an hour without listening to something. Ah, the joys of retirement and disposable income. To go back on topic I am currently listening to and enjoying tremendously, Tannhauser from Bayreuth in 1957. Klobucar conducting rather well and Jess Thomas and Berit Lindholm on great form. Penelope Turing reviewed this production in her book New Bayreuth but she heard the previous performance with Windgassen and Dernesch which she castigated. I feel that by this time, after nearly twenty years of being at Bayreuth she had lost some of her objectivity and missed the fifties and its performers rather badly. But that's only my opinion. Read the book and I think you'll get the gist of what I'm saying.


----------



## hpowders

My favorites are:

Bruno Walter conducting the Vienna Philharmonic in Act One of Die Walküre with Lehmann, Melchior and List.

Wilhelm Furtwängler conducting the Vienna Philharmonic in the complete Die Walküre with Mödl, Rysanek, Frantz, Suthaus, Klose and Frick.


----------



## Cesare Impalatore

Allanmcf said:


> It's to DavidA and Woodduck's credit that they are so passionate about music but it's also important to remember that it's only music after all and not a matter of life and death.


"Without music, life would be a mistake." - Friedrich Nietzsche; ok, maybe it's not wise to quote him of all philosophers in a Wagner thread. 

When it comes to historical Wagner recordings, it can be very difficult to pick favourites but the one I listened to most has got to be Furtwängler's Tristan with the immortal Kirsten Flagstad as Isolde:


----------



## DarkAngel

Earlier in this thread Itullian was questioning me about this 1959 Bayreuth Meister and whether Schock was up to the task of Walther, I know there is some skepticism since he is also well known in the operetta world and musical movies in Germany.......but I say this is very worthy and should definitely find a spot in your collection, extremely Cheap at Amazon USA sellers $12 (a steal!) There are other singers that also sing operetta (gotta make a living) like Waechter, Kollo, Wunderlich, Gedda etc,

I also like that we have some new voices here to mix up with the established Bayreuth stars, good to hear some new combinations and styles,* listen to Schock's golden lyric tenor vocal delivery in the prize song sequence "Morgenlicht Leuchtend"* and imagine all those beautiful duets with Grummer (Eva) nicccccceeeeeeeee..........


----------



## DarkAngel

Got the final delivery of remaining opera for 1957 Knappy Ring (now have 1956 & 1957 & 1958) and I am still listening in almost disbelief how great the sound quality is on the 57 Knappy in this Walhall Eternity release, great great performances at insanely low prices Amazon USA.........strongest recommendation


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Earlier in this thread Itullian was questioning me about this Meister and whether Schock was up to the task of Walther, I know there is some skepticism since he is also well known in the operetta world and musical movies in Germany.......but I say this is very worthy and should definitely find a spot in your collection, extremely Cheap at Amazon USA sellers $12 (a steal!) There are other singers that also sing operetta (gotta make a living) like Waechter, Kollo, Wunderlich, Gedda etc,
> 
> I also like that we have some new voices here to mix up with the established Bayreuth stars, good to hear some new combinations and styles, listen to Schock's golden vocal delivery in the prize song sequence "Morgenlicht Leuchtend' and imagine all those beautiful duets with Grummer (Eva) nicccccceeeeeeeee..........


DA,
I believe it was Wiener I brought up.
His voice is kinda high and nasally I thought for Sachsy. No?


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Got the final delivery of remaining 1957 Knappy Ring (now have 1956 & 1957 & 1958) and I am still listening in almost disbelief how great the sound quality is on the 57 Knappy in this Walhall Eternity release, great great performances at insanely low prices Amazon USA.........strongest recommendation


Soon as i get my bills paid


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> DA,
> I believe it was Wiener I brought up.
> His voice is kinda high and nasally I thought for Sachsy. No?


Otto Wiener for sachs is lighter in tone than others, not a bass-baritone but more of a light baritone and he tends to be more animated than other sachs.......so for me that is another reason that this Meister is worthy pick-up you get different styles for sachs a light baritone and walther a lyric tenor than you are used to hearing.

I read also that Wieland Wagner (grandson) specically recruited Schock to Bayreuth to sing walther as he had heard him a few years earlier and was very impressed

Forget the bills, buy 1957 Knappy ASAP........


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Otto Wiener for sachs is lighter in tone than others, not a bass-baritone but more of a lighter baritone and he tends to be more animated than other sachs.......so for me that is another reason that this Meister is worthy pick-up you get different styles for sachs a light baritone and walther a lyric tenor than you are used to hearing.
> 
> I read also the Wieland Wagner (grandson) specically recruited Schock to Bayreuth to sing walther as he had heard him a few years earlier and was very impressed
> 
> *Forget the bills, buy 1957 Knappy ASAP........[/*
> 
> Just ordered it..................


----------



## Itullian

I get so excited when I order these things. :lol:


----------



## Itullian

You have this DA?
Jess as Walther 
Hotter, Watson


----------



## Itullian

Itullian said:


> I get so excited when I order these things. :lol:


I sure hope they send me the right ones


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> You have this DA?
> Jess as Walther
> Hotter, Watson


Yes I have had that for a long time......the slight weak spot there is Watson as Eva (compared to Grummer) but still worth owning for sure, hard to find any weak performances during this golden period, a string of winners. Keilberth has more lively orchestral style compared to Knappy, all good for variety sake

Jess Thomas a great Wagner singer in every role he has recorded that I have heard, and his Lohengrin the reference standard to measure all others for me


----------



## Itullian

Hey DA,
Another Ring on Walhall coming out next month. Cheap.


----------



## DavidA

Itullian said:


> I get so excited when I order these things. :lol:


It's called musical retail therapy! &#55357;&#56836;


----------



## Itullian

DavidA said:


> It's called musical retail therapy! &#55357;&#56836;


Where'd you get that little smile? :lol:


----------



## DavidA

Supposed to be a smile. Obviously the software fell out with me!


----------



## Itullian

DavidA said:


> Supposed to be a smile. Obviously the software fell out with me!


No, I like it. Wondered where you got it.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Hey DA,
> Another Ring on Walhall coming out next month. Cheap.


Is that a complete Ring or just isolated operas? London performance, I do have a couple Konwitschny recordings but don't really know much about him..........

I am overloaded with new Rings recently so I must digest my recent acquisitions discussed in this thread

1952 Keilberth Myto
1957 Knappy Walhall
1958 Knappy Walhall
1960 Kempe Myto


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Is that a complete Ring or just isolated operas? London performance, I do have a couple Konwitschny recordings but don't really know much about him..........
> 
> I am overloaded with new Rings recently so I must digest my recent acquisitions discussed in this thread
> 
> 1952 Keilberth Myto
> 1957 Knappy Walhall
> 1958 Knappy Walhall
> 1960 Kempe Myto


A complete Ring.
Konwitschny is great. I have his Beethoven symphs and Schumann symphs and they are great, plus that excellent Dutchman and Tannhauser he did.


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Is that a complete Ring or just isolated operas? London performance, I do have a couple Konwitschny recordings but don't really know much about him..........
> 
> I am overloaded with new Rings recently so I must digest my recent acquisitions discussed in this thread
> 
> 1952 Keilberth Myto
> 1957 Knappy Walhall
> 1958 Knappy Walhall
> 1960 Kempe Myto


You're now more the Wagnerian than I am!!!


----------



## Itullian




----------



## Itullian

Covent Garden Ring


----------



## DavidA

There is a Walkure from Covent Garden in 1961 conducted by Solti on Testament which has been raved about by some critics. Here's a less enthused review:

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/jul/17/wagner-die-walkure-solti-review


----------



## Itullian

DA,
Never mind. I had a listen over at Presto and the sound is not good.
oh well.

We have good ones for now


----------



## DarkAngel

DavidA said:


> There is a Walkure from Covent Garden in 1961 conducted by Solti on Testament which has been raved about by some critics. Here's a less enthused review:
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/jul/17/wagner-die-walkure-solti-review





> Never mind. I had a listen over at Presto and the sound is not good.
> oh well.
> We have good ones for now


Maybe Alanmcf here knows about the 1959 Konwitschny Ring, he seems to have several ROH covent garden wagner performances.

I also did do my due diligence and checked Presto UK for sound samples and from those the sound is not as good as the 57/58 Walhall Knappy (Bayreuth) for sure


----------



## Eramirez156

Here are Wagner historical recording you should consider:









*Der Fliegende Hollander*
New York -- December 30, 1950; Hans Hotter, Astrid Varnay, Set Svanholm, Sven Nilsson, Thomas Hayward, Hertha Glaz; Fritz Reiner









*Lohengrin*
Bayreuth 1953- Windgassen, Steber, Varnay, Uhde, Keilberth









*Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg*
Toscanini, Salzburg 1937









Bayrueth 1943-Paul Schoffler, Friedrich Dalberg , Erich Kunz , Hilde Scheppan ,Ludwig Suthaus and Abendroth
for 7.99 for the download at

http://www.amazon.com/Meistersinger...swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&sr=1-1&qid=1431284902


----------



## DarkAngel

Eramirez156 said:


> Here are Wagner historical recording you should consider:
> 
> View attachment 69483
> 
> 
> *Lohengrin*
> Bayreuth 1953- Windgassen, Steber, Varnay, Uhde, Keilberth


Thanks for those picks, we have been talking about the super cheap ZYX label for Wagner and that whenever you see one at Amazon you just buy it because it will be a great performance.......that is how I got that 1953 Keilberth Lohengrin, geat version!


----------



## Itullian

My next Wagner purchase will probably be the new Solti next month. I may pick up a few more choice tid bits in the meantime though budget allowing 
'58 Knappy?


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> My next Wagner purchase will probably be the new Solti next month. I may pick up a few more choice tid bits in the meantime though budget allowing
> '58 Knappy?


I can help you spend a few dollars......

The *1952 Karajan Tristan from Bayreuth* is incredibly great with very good sound, I like this better than the famous Furtwangler Flagstadt Tristan.......yes it is that good!

There is a version on Walhall eternity but very expensive now (old version on opera d oro), there is a newer remaster for very cheap ($8 Amazon) that sounds great, again excellent sound highly recommended



















I like this much better than the 1959 Karajan La Scala Tristan, and the sound is far superior!


----------



## Itullian

The 52 Bayreuth Karajan has good sound DA?
I've heard it's not good


----------



## DarkAngel

Speaking of Karajan Bayreuth, have you heard the 1951 act 3 of Walkure?

There is no complete 1951 Walkure I can find, only this segment and you know how great Varnay is at this time as Brunhilde, like the 1952 Tristan remaster the sound engineers have given us amazing sound (sounds like I am exaggerating but it really is amazing) You can get this for a few dollars used at Amazon...........


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> The 52 Bayreuth Karajan has good sound DA?
> I've heard it's not good


I just listened today, the new remaster is very very good sound (better than opera d oro)......


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> I just listened today, the new remaster is very very good sound (better than opera d oro)......


OK, Ordering.
And one Act per disc too


----------



## Itullian

How about Furty's studio Walkure?
Worth getting?


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> How about Furty's studio Walkure?
> Worth getting?


Absolutely worth getting.......WP orchestra in studio sound, yes yes yessssssssss

You can get the old EMI packaging with large booklet and slipcase or cheap new ZYX release........


----------



## DarkAngel

My two favorite Dutchies now, 1959 Sawallisch and 1955 Knappy. I am listening to extended segments of the Knappy version on the Varnay 10CD boxset......6 of the CDs are wagner only, lots of great stuff also some things to look for but I can't find elsewhere


----------



## Itullian

And Knappy '58?
Still worth getting?


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> And Knappy '58?
> Still worth getting?


Yes absolutely there are some new singers year to year, but I would get the 1957 Knappy Ring first because the sound is so great......unfortunately it will only make you more committed to also get the 1958, how will we hear singers like this again?


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Yes absolutely there are some new singers year to year, but I would get the 1957 Knappy Ring first because the sound is so great......unfortunately it will only make you more committed to also get the 1958, how will we hear singers like this again?


'57 is ordered 
As far as singers go, doesn't look very promising 
That's why we need these classic recordings


----------



## Itullian

And don't forget the Kempe '60 Ring.
Truly a great discovery.


----------



## Itullian

Think you'll get the new 2012 Solti remaster DA?
My turn to tempt you now.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

DarkAngel said:


> Speaking of Karajan Bayreuth, have you heard the 1951 act 3 of Walkure?
> 
> There is no complete 1951 Walkure I can find, only this segment and you know how great Varnay is at this time as Brunhilde, like the 1952 Tristan remaster the sound engineers have given us amazing sound (sounds like I am exaggerating but it really is amazing) You can get this for a few dollars used at Amazon...........


According to Elisabeth Schwarzkopf in her memoirs _Off the Record,_ only Act III of the 1951 Bayreuth Karajan _Walkure_ was recorded because of the meagre finances EMI had at the time. There's no _éminence grise _ at EMI sitting on the Act I and II tapes- they quite simply don't exist.

What a travesty, I know.

I think Karajan's Bayreuth Act III _Walkure_ is the most exciting one of all time. I can only imagine how he did the other two, let alone the "Overture to Act I".


----------



## Woodduck

^^^In case anyone was wondering, Sigurd Bjorling, the Wotan, was no relation to Jussi.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

DarkAngel said:


> I can help you spend a few dollars......
> 
> The *1952 Karajan Tristan from Bayreuth* is incredibly great with very good sound, I like this better than the famous Furtwangler Flagstadt Tristan.......yes it is that good!
> 
> There is a version on Walhall eternity but very expensive now (old version on opera d oro), there is a newer remaster for very cheap ($8 Amazon) that sounds great, again excellent sound highly recommended





















I would certainly choose the unrivaled passionate lasciviousness of the Act I Karajan Bayreuth _Tristan_ over the famed Furtwangler/Philharmonia- but equally true is that I'd choose the Act II love music of the Furtwangler over the Karajan in a heartbeat- which, for my money, is the most sublime performance and passage of anything I've heard in Wagner.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Woodduck said:


> ^^^In case anyone was wondering, Sigurd Bjorling, the Wotan, was no relation to Jussi.


As if one could stereotype different sound systems from the same name._ ;D_


----------



## Allanmcf

DarkAngel said:


> Maybe Alanmcf here knows about the 1959 Konwitschny Ring, he seems to have several ROH covent garden wagner performances.
> 
> I also did do my due diligence and checked Presto UK for sound samples and from those the sound is not as good as the 57/58 Walhall Knappy (Bayreuth) for sure


Hi DA. Haven't finished listening to Konwitschny yet. So far the performance sounds good. The recording itself is a little wooly but tolerable. The Royal Opera House orchestra, as was typical for the time, is variable but has many fine moments. I'll give a fuller report when I reach the end. Goodness knows when that will be as I keep getting distracted every time someone mentions a recording that either I haven't got or haven't listened to for a long time. The act 3 from Walkure at Bayreuth '51 being an example.


----------



## DarkAngel

Marschallin Blair said:


> I would certainly choose the unrivaled passionate lasciviousness of the Act I Karajan Bayreuth _Tristan_ over the famed Furtwangler/Philharmonia- but equally true is that I'd choose the Act II love music of the Furtwangler over the Karajan in a heartbeat- which, for my money, is the most sublime performance and passage of anything I've heard in Wagner.


My overall preference for Modl vs Flagstadt in these Tristans has to do with my greater emotional connection with Modl, she seems more passionate and actually estatic delerious with love for the deceased Tristan......with Flagstadt it is more deliberate and controlled passion all done very nicely and with great skill, but I feel more excitement with Modl and I connect with this

The obvious solution is to own both of these fine Tristans especially since the new Karajan remaster is so cheap.....


----------



## Marschallin Blair

DarkAngel said:


> My overall preference for Modl vs Flagstadt in these Tristans has to do with my greater emotional connection with Modl, she seems more passionate and actually estatic delirious with love for the deceased Tristan......with Flagstadt it is more deliberate and controlled passion all done very nicely and with great skill, but I feel more excitement with Modl and I connect with this
> 
> The obvious solution is to own both of these fine Tristans especially since the new Karajan remaster is so cheap.....


I wouldn't be without either, myself. Both are absolutely indispensable.


----------



## DarkAngel

Listening to this Modl 10CD boxset and there are two full CDs devoted to two Tristans (Tristan pose on cover), 1958 Keilberth Bayreuth and 1952 Karajan Bayreuth......again the remaster for 1952 discussed above has much better sound compared to boxset, *Itullian will be pleased with his purchase
*
Wagner fans should get this Modl boxset since 7 of the 10 CDs are all wagner music, the cover art would imply wagner is less prominent, only $14 Amazon prime (free shipping)

I like that description under her name "queen of drama" that's my type of girl


----------



## Marschallin Blair

DarkAngel said:


> Listening to this Modl 10CD boxset and there are two Cds devoted to two Tristans, 1958 Keilberth Bayreuth and 1952 Karajan Bayreuth......again the remaster for 1952 discussed above has better sound, Itullian will be pleased with his purchase


What's the Mussorgsky Modl does in the box set? Does she do Empress Marina or Princess Xenia from_ Boris_?

Have you ever read Pushkin's poem?

Xenia's the cute princess, Marina's the powerbroker- who pledges to love and sit at the feet of Boris (the False Dmitry) 'as long as he is Czar'- she's such a *****. I love her. . . but I love Xenia too.

Anyway, I can picture Modl pulling off the dark role of Empress Marina but Xenia would be beyond her dark timbre completely. . . to me at least.


----------



## DarkAngel

Marschallin Blair said:


> What's the Mussorgsky Modl does in the box set? Does she do Empress Marina or Princess Xenia from_ Boris_?
> 
> Have you ever read Pushkin's poem?
> 
> Xenia's the cute princess, Marina's the powerbroker- who pledges to love and sit at the feet of Boris (the False Dmitry) 'as long as he is Czar'- she's such a *****. I love her. . . but I love Xenia too.
> 
> Anyway, *I can picture Modl pulling off the dark role of Empress Marina *but Xenia would be beyond her dark timbre completely. . . to me at least.


Indeed you are correct, Modl is Marina from Boris Godunov, two tracks @20 minutes from 1950 performance, I am completely ignorant of Russian opera and never listen to it......sometimes watch a Eugene Onegin video


----------



## Marschallin Blair

DarkAngel said:


> Indeed you are correct, Modl is Marina from Boris Godunov, two tracks @20 minutes from 1950 performance, I am completely ignorant of Russian opera and never listen to it......sometimes watch a Eugene Onegin video


I'd love to hear it. I want to hear it. I'm not so sure I need another box set for just one thing though. I'll have to think it over.

Thanks for posting it.


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Indeed you are correct, Modl is Marina from Boris Godunov, two tracks @20 minutes from 1950 performance, *I am completely ignorant of Russian opera and never listen to it......sometimes watch a Eugene Onegin video*




Same here DA.........................

57 Knap still not shipped


----------



## Itullian

57 Knap has shipped


----------



## DarkAngel

DarkAngel said:


> Absolutely worth getting.......WP orchestra in studio sound, yes yes yessssssssss


The two more stand alone Walkure performances should also be scooped up, 1968 MET live broadcast just recently released and the well known 1961 Leinsdorf stereo excellent sound


----------



## Itullian

^^^^Sound pretty good on the Met recording?


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> ^^^^Sound pretty good on the Met recording?


All those MET broadcast series are pretty good, they are mono and there is an audience present, but I would not rate them excellent sound.......1957 Walhall Knappy Bayreuth is better, and Bohm Bayreuth Ring also better for example

Presto UK has sound samples


----------



## Itullian

What do you think of this one DA?


----------



## Itullian

The sound is not too bad on the Met set.
Checked Presto.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> What do you think of this one DA?


I like that Tannhauser, I have owned it for a long time on opera d oro label and the sound was very good, it is possible that the newer remaster you show is even better sound.......










*Update*
Presto UK has sound samples for new Andromeda label remaster and they do indeed sound better than opera d oro, this is a winner.......


----------



## Itullian

Still waitin on '57 Knapster


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> I like that Tannhauser, I have owned it for a long time on opera d oro label and the sound was very good, it is possible that the newer remaster you show is even better sound.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Update*
> Presto UK has sound samples for new Andromeda label remaster and they do indeed sound better than opera d oro, this is a winner.......


It does sound pretty good. 
The singing too.....wow :tiphat:


----------



## Allanmcf

T


DarkAngel said:


> Maybe Alanmcf here knows about the 1959 Konwitschny Ring, he seems to have several ROH covent garden wagner performances.
> 
> I also did do my due diligence and checked Presto UK for sound samples and from those the sound is not as good as the 57/58 Walhall Knappy (Bayreuth) for sure


Hi DA. I have now listened to Rheingold, Walkure and Siegfried from '59. The prognosis is very good. The orchestra are on fine form and Konwitschny is excellent. The singing is uniformly good with Hotter, Varnay, Vinay and Windgassen in cracking voice. Hotter brings something special to the party and as this was recorded a year after the Solti Rheingold I can only assume he was having some sort of vocal crisis during those sessions because he sounds pretty solid all through this. Windgassen is his usual reliable self and I am guessing that he was not Culshaw and Solti's first choice for the studio because he was already pretty set in the part of Siegfried, unlike Ernst Kozub, who could be moulded to their vision. All the rest of the parts are very well sung, particularly Vinay, Varnay and Shuard. Richard Holm is tremendous as Loge as is Otakar Krause as Alberich. Peter Klein is an excellent Mime and I am looking forward to hearing Frick and Uhde as Hagen and Gunther. You could do worse than add this to your collection. I'm taking a little break from this as I need to catch up on other stuff. Richard Strauss, Mozart, Keith Jarrett, Grateful Dead et al. Man cannot live by Wagner alone!!


----------



## Itullian

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Thanks a lot, but the recording just doesn't sound very good to me.
Sounds thin, fades sometimes and sounds like there are break ups.
Maybe just me, but it seems that way from what I hear on Presto.


----------



## Allanmcf

Itullian said:


> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Thanks a lot, but the recording just doesn't sound very good to me.
> Sounds thin, fades sometimes and sounds like there are break ups.
> Maybe just me, but it seems that way from what I hear on Presto.


I agree but I can live with the variable sound. I was aware of background vocals at various points which I put down to a) singers exercising their voices or b) bleed through from the original tapes.


----------



## Itullian

57 Knap still not here.


----------



## DarkAngel

Two more 1950s Tristans both with Nilsson and Windgassen, 1959 Karajan La Scala and 1958 Sawallisch Bayreuth.

I much prefer the 1958 Sawallisch here, the sound is far superior to the Karajan. I have heard several different 1950s La scala Wagner recording and they have never been great sound, the many Bayreuths 1957-58 have all been excellent sound and this is no exception......the balance of the casts are equally impressive. Nilsson is very fresh voiced in 1958 with effortless voice extension and dramatic articulation, Windgassen is everywhere during this time period for Wagner and gives us the expected fine performance.....$12 from Amazon USA sellers

My first choice for 1950s Tristan would still be the 1952 Modl Bayreuth (Karajan) in the new remaster discussed a few days ago


----------



## Itullian

^^^^^
Thanks DA.
My wish list runnith over.


----------



## Woodduck

Allanmcf said:


> T
> 
> Hi DA. I have now listened to Rheingold, Walkure and Siegfried from '59. The prognosis is very good. The orchestra are on fine form and Konwitschny is excellent. The singing is uniformly good with Hotter, Varnay, Vinay and Windgassen in cracking voice. Hotter brings something special to the party and as this was recorded a year after the Solti Rheingold I can only assume he was having some sort of vocal crisis during those sessions because he sounds pretty solid all through this. *Windgassen is his usual reliable self and I am guessing that he was not Culshaw and Solti's first choice for the studio because he was already pretty set in the part of Siegfried, unlike Ernst Kozub, who could be moulded to their vision.* All the rest of the parts are very well sung, particularly Vinay, Varnay and Shuard. Richard Holm is tremendous as Loge as is Otakar Krause as Alberich. Peter Klein is an excellent Mime and I am looking forward to hearing Frick and Uhde as Hagen and Gunther. You could do worse than add this to your collection. I'm taking a little break from this as I need to catch up on other stuff. Richard Strauss, Mozart, Keith Jarrett, Grateful Dead et al. Man cannot live by Wagner alone!!


Apparently Ernst Kozub couldn't be molded at all, since he couldn't even learn the part of Siegfried properly. It wasn't a matter of Culshaw having a particular vision; he was simply impressed with Kozub's voice, more heroic and youthful than Windgassen's. He certainly had no problem with Windgassen's portrayal of the character, which is masterful.


----------



## Allanmcf

Woodduck said:


> Apparently Ernst Kozub couldn't be molded at all, since he couldn't even learn the part of Siegfried properly. It wasn't a matter of Culshaw having a particular vision; he was simply impressed with Kozub's voice, more heroic and youthful than Windgassen's. He certainly had no problem with Windgassen's portrayal of the character, which is masterful.


Hi Woodduck. I think I've visited this before on another thread. What I was trying to say was I would have thought that when Culshaw and Solti signed up Kozub they weren't aware of his health problems that would impinge on his ability to learn the part in time, it is, after all, a big part to learn. Yes, yes, he also stretched himself thin by doing other things but you can't blame him for earning money by doing stuff he was comfortable with. I would imagine that Solti and Culshaw wanted to bring something new to their interpretation and bringing in a seasoned campaigner like Windgassen wouldn't accomplish that. In my opinion of course!!


----------



## DavidA

Woodduck said:


> Apparently Ernst Kozub couldn't be molded at all, since he couldn't even learn the part of Siegfried properly. It wasn't a matter of Culshaw having a particular vision; he was simply impressed with Kozub's voice, more heroic and youthful than Windgassen's. He certainly had no problem with Windgassen's portrayal of the character, which is masterful.


Culshaw himself said that by the time Decca got round to recording Siegfried, Windgassen's voice was showing signs of wear hence, "admire him though I did, I just couldn't believe he was good enough [to record the part for us]" hence the experiment with Kozub, which ended with a last mi ute engagement of Wingassen, who only finally agreed when he heard the VPO tuning up! Culshaw admitted he sounded a lot better and fresher than he thought he would, and kicked himself for not having engaged him in the first place. It seems that in no way was the experiment with Kozub an attempt to mould him - just get what was perceived as a better voice for the part. Of course it turned into a near disaster.


----------



## DarkAngel

Allanmcf said:


> The Dorati is ok but it is a typical studio recording that lacks the frisson of a live performance. London and Rysanek are in good voice but lack the edge that they bring to their live performances. I don't find Dorati that controversial. Solid conducting.





Woodduck said:


> Soon after this, London and Rysanek recorded the opera in the studio under Dorati; I've never heard it, but Dorati's conducting is controversial. I'm guessing this live one is the better choice, given Sawallisch's energy.





















Two stereo Dutchies tonight.......

The 1960 Dorati has very fine cast and conducting in general is no problem, but something is not right with this recording. There is an overall veil or opaqueness that should not be there and to make matters worse the soundstage is often pushed to extreme right and left channel with little center fill making voices sound like they are only coming out of one speaker. The final irritant is the use of actual wind sound effects is a couple spots which I find annoying......still a worthy Dutchman to own despite those "problems"

By comparison the 1960 Konwitschny in the newest remaster shown above is a sonic blockbuster, with powerful robust sound properly spread soundstage and clear finely nuanced detail. Itullian may have briefly mentioned this performance earlier, and being on a small record label makes it below the radar of many, but this is really a fine overall performance in great sound. The male singers are well known but Mariane Schech as Senta was previously unknown to me, exciting dramatic performance highly recommended.....price is cheap as well

For London/Rysanek duo I still prefer the live Myto Sawallisch below (over stereo Dorati).......


----------



## Itullian

^^^^^^^
The Konwitschny is indeed a great recording DA.
And if it's hard to find, Amazon UK has the latest incarnation for about 8 dollars.


----------



## Itullian

New 24bit DA


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> New 24bit DA


That one plus a few others have already been purchased and sit on my "CDs to listen to" pile, Duck may not be a ready buyer with 1961 Fritz Uhl, will be checking it out over next few days........

I will concede I am "ringed out" with 4 classic era Rings recently purchased, so only looking at the other individual operas now

There is a Phillips label "Dutchman" Sawallisch with nearly the same cast, but oop and used copies are insanely priced......so we go with the cheap live versions (which maybe even better performance)


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> That one plus a few others have already been purchased and sit on my "CDs to listen to" pile, Duck may not be a ready buyer with 1961 Fritz Uhl, will be checking it out over next few days........
> 
> *I will concede I am "ringed out" with 4 classic era Rings recently purchased, so only looking at the other individual operas now*


Me too. When I get the 58 Knap 
Unless something really great comes out


----------



## DarkAngel

Speaking of oop 1950s Wagner, I have been watching the 1956 Kempe BPO Meistersinger on EMI label now oop and naturally very expensive used, Arkiv Music sells a CDR remake for $39 ......I also note that Pristine XR has remastered this and the price is about equal to Arkiv, so if I was to do something here I would go with Pristine for the same price

Not available on spotify or tidal music streaming......


----------



## Allanmcf

Oop? Acronym for what please?


----------



## DavidA

DarkAngel said:


> Speaking of oop 1950s Wagner, I have been watching the 1956 Kempe BPO Meistersinger on EMI label now oop and naturally very expensive used, Arkiv Music sells a CDR remake for $39 ......I also note that Pristine XR has remastered this and the price is about equal to Arkiv, so if I was to do something here I would go with Pristine for the same price
> 
> Not available on spotify or tidal music streaming......


It can be obtained for £17-50 or £6-99 for a download.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Die-Meister...431803587&sr=8-2&keywords=meistersinger+kempe


----------



## Itullian

Allanmcf said:


> Oop? Acronym for what please?


out of print.....................


----------



## Allanmcf

Itullian said:


> out of print.....................


Thank you Itullian. I notice that Amazon in the U.S. often has stuff that we don't see on Amazon U.K. Given that it's a multinational the least they could do is make the download version available on all their websites. You would think! Probably some nonsensical copyright issue.


----------



## Itullian

Allanmcf said:


> Thank you Itullian. I notice that Amazon in the U.S. often has stuff that *we don't see on Amazon U.K. * Given that it's a multinational the least they could do is make the download version available on all their websites. You would think! Probably some nonsensical copyright issue.


Yes, and vice verse as well.


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Speaking of oop 1950s Wagner, I have been watching the 1956 Kempe BPO Meistersinger on EMI label now oop and naturally very expensive used, Arkiv Music sells a CDR remake for $39 ......I also note that Pristine XR has remastered this and the price is about equal to Arkiv, so if I was to do something here I would go with Pristine for the same price
> 
> Not available on spotify or tidal music streaming......


I watch this too. It's amazing Warner hasn't rereleased this classic.


----------



## DarkAngel

DavidA said:


> It can be obtained for £17-50 or £6-99 for a download.
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Die-Meister...431803587&sr=8-2&keywords=meistersinger+kempe


Thanks for that find DavidA, never heard of that CD label before......

I see 4 Amazon UK reviews and the two positive ones are for a different performance with Knappy (Amazon often gets mixed up with reviews) and the remaining two 3 star ones complain about sound quality, especially one guy who has heard the original EMI CD saying this release has disappointing sound......I can only go by the 256 mp3 samples which sound good enough

I think for now I just keep my powder dry to see if other options develop, but I would like to get this someday


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Darkest-of-Angels, what is the most incandescent Act III to _Walkure_ that you've heard?

What's your favorite _Act I Overture to Walkure_ and _Act III Overture to Siegfried_?


----------



## DavidA

DarkAngel said:


> Thanks for that find DavidA, never heard of that CD label before......
> 
> I see 4 Amazon UK reviews and the two positive ones are for a different performance with Knappy (Amazon often gets mixed up with reviews) and the remaining two 3 star ones complain about sound quality, especially one guy who has heard the original EMI CD saying this release has disappointing sound......I can only go by the 256 mp3 samples which sound good enough
> 
> I think for now I just keep my powder dry to see if other options develop, but I would like to get this someday


Wise move. I know some of these transfers can be poor. I was caught with a Beethoven 6 in which the first two bars of the scherzo were missing!


----------



## DarkAngel

Marschallin Blair said:


> Darkest-of-Angels, what is the *most incandescent Act III to Walkure *that you've heard?
> 
> What's your favorite _Act I Overture to Walkure_ and _Act III Overture to Siegfried_?


Not counting that stands alone 1951 Karajan Walkure act 3 discussed here recently, I was extremely impressed with the 1952 Keilberth Walkure act 3........Hotter and Varnay so vocally articulate and passionate expressing those conflicting emotion as Wotan must punish his beloved Brunhilde, Varnay pleads her case to a loving father that she has really done what Wotan secretly wanted but her fate is sealed and with great sorrow accepts her destiny. I have never heard Hotter this expressive, so emotionally torn, magnificent........bring on the fire music

The entire 1952 Kielberth Ring on Myto has been a great recent pick up!


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Not counting that stands alone 1951 Karajan Walkure act 3 discussed here recently, I was extremely impressed with the 1952 Keilberth Walkure act 3........Hotter and Varnay so vocally articulate and passionate expressing those conflicting emotion as Wotan must punish his beloved Brunhilde, Varnay pleads her case to a loving father that she has really done what Wotan secretly wanted but her fate is sealed and with great sorrow accepts her destiny. I have never heard Hotter this expressive, so emotionally torn, magnificent........bring on the fire music
> 
> The entire 1952 Kielberth Ring on Myto has been a great recent pick up!


Astrid is Awesome


----------



## Itullian

Is this new?


----------



## Allanmcf

Itullian said:


> Is this new?


Don't think so Itullian. It has been on the Amazon uk site since 2012 and I see that someone on Amazon.com reviewed it in 2013. The reviewer on Amazon uk is doubtful that it is even Knappertsbusch that is conducting and thinks that from the style it was actually Cluytens!! I'm not sure myself. I like the performance regardless of who is at the helm.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Is this new?





Allanmcf said:


> Don't think so Itullian. It has been on the Amazon uk site since 2012 and I see that someone on Amazon.com reviewed it in 2013. The reviewer on Amazon uk is doubtful that it is even Knappertsbusch that is conducting and thinks that from the style it was actually Cluytens!! I'm not sure myself. I like the performance regardless of who is at the helm.


Not sure but will not be for sale till June 9 at Amazon USA......great price of $12.99 prime (free shipping), I have it in the future buy basket.......almost certainly will be great sound as is every other 1957 Walhall label Bayreuth I have heard so far

Will be interesting to compare this with famous later 1962 Knappy Bayreuth Parsifal (Jess Thomas)


----------



## Allanmcf

DarkAngel said:


> Not sure but will not be for sale till June 9 at Amazon USA......great price of $12.99 prime (free shipping), I have it in the future buy basket.......almost certainly will be great sound as is every other 1957 Walhall label Bayreuth I have heard so far
> 
> Will be interesting to compare this with famous later 1962 Knappy Bayreuth Parsifal (Jess Thomas)


Here is a link to the Amazon uk page with the two reviews, one of which was from Amazon.com. Is it or is it not Knappertsbusch. Kurwenal, who is pretty reliable, thinks not. I have no clue.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wagner-Pars...876070&sr=1-1&keywords=Parsifal+bayreuth+1957


----------



## Allanmcf

In 1957 there were four performances of Parsifal at Bayreuth. 

25th July - Cluytens with Varnay as Kundry
5th August - Knappertsbusch with Varnay
13th August - Cluytens with Modl as Kundry
23rd August - Knappetsbusch with Modl. 

If anyone can find out the date for the recording that is referred to above that should clinch it for the conductor.


----------



## Itullian

This one sounded very good on Presto site sample.


----------



## DarkAngel

Allanmcf said:


> In 1957 there were four performances of Parsifal at Bayreuth.
> 
> 25th July - Cluytens with Varnay as Kundry
> 5th August - Knappertsbusch with Varnay
> 13th August - Cluytens with Modl as Kundry
> 23rd August - Knappetsbusch with Modl.
> 
> If anyone can find out the date for the recording that is referred to above that should clinch it for the conductor.


The Amazon UK poster had great comments and interesting questions......I can find no way to actually prove the recording date of the 1957 Walhall Parsifal, but I will just take it "on faith" that Walhall would not make such a large mistake confusing the conductors, plus *regardless all agree it is a great Parsifal so it must be bought at such a low price*.....


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> This one sounded very good on Presto site sample.












Just a reminder ZYX label has the 1951 Knappy Parsifal for $7 at Amazon USA......


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Just a reminder ZYX label has the 1951 Knappy Parsifal for $7 at Amazon USA......


It's in my basket :tiphat:


----------



## Itullian

Another one with an interesting cast.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Another one with an interesting cast.


There are some different singers there which is a plus, today I listened to 1953 Krauss Bayreuth yet another very good Parsifal also valuable to get another style of conducting as I am starting to get "knappy overload" with so many of his performances. Great cast, very good sound, and cheap price......but I think these all compete for 2nd place.
*
The mighty 1962 stereo Knappy Bayreuth is just a giant killer*. As good as these 1950s mono Parsifal's sound they are just dwarfed when you play a room filling *stereo version* on the main system, the dramatic impact is overwhelming. Then we have Jess Thomas a really great Parsifal (and Lohengrin) singer, sweet golden lyric tenor with heroic power, magic happens when he sings, just the ideal wagner tenor that draws us in every time. And Hans Hotter although late in his career is such an expressive Gurnemanz making others seem flat and lacking in characterization.....it is "almost" game over for any other version.

I did leave some room to challenge 1962 Knappy as in Kundry (very good Irene Dalis), I cannot be more impressed with Modl's many performances, very animated and dramatic with that amber toned voice, it is no surprise she appears so often in this role during the 1950s.

We must carry on but I think the prime Parsifal recording is already in our possession........also I have not heard 1964 Knappy but I can't imagine Vickers surpassing Jess Thomas


----------



## Itullian

^Agree, that '62 is a monument.


----------



## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> We must carry on but I think the prime Parsifal recording is already in our possession........also I have not heard 1964 Knappy but I can't imagine Vickers surpassing Jess Thomas


You can hear the 1964 act one transformation music and the procession into the temple, and the final scene with Stewart and Vickers on YouTube:





 (the ensemble is a tad ragged in spots, but nobody matches Kna's intensity in this music!)





 (What do you think? Does Vickers perhaps surpass Thomas - and everyone else but Melchior - here? )

Some feel that Kna's last Parsifal was his most intense. I have yet to hear the whole thing. I look forward to finding an affordable copy!


----------



## Itullian

Woodduck said:


> You can hear the 1964 act one transformation music and the procession into the temple, and the final scene with Stewart and Vickers on YouTube:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (the ensemble is a tad ragged in spots, but nobody matches Kna's intensity in this music!)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (What do you think? Does Vickers perhaps surpass Thomas - and everyone else but Melchior - here? )
> 
> *Some feel that Kna's last Parsifal was his most intense. I have yet to hear the whole thing. I look forward to finding an affordable copy![/*QUOTE]
> 
> Good luck paesan!!!!!


----------



## DarkAngel

Woodduck said:


> (What do you think? *Does Vickers perhaps surpass Thomas *- and everyone else but Melchior - here? )
> 
> Some feel that Kna's last Parsifal was his most intense. I have yet to hear the whole thing. I look forward to finding an affordable copy!


Sounds great, and Vickers is in great form......but for me I still favor Jess Thomas, a subjective thing no doubt but Jess has a sweeter more lyric tone combined with a commanding heroic full voice that he can move between and blend most skillfully as needed to great effect, no Jess is still my prime pure fool

The Kundry used here is unknown to me - Barbro Ericson, huge shoes to fill with fresh memories of Martha Modl still alive.......

I do want this Parsifal now..........:lol:


----------



## Itullian

DA
They're here!!!!!
They're here!!!!!
I'm so excited. '57 Knap is here!!!!!!!
I love the packaging.
Rheingold is on right now and it's sounding awesome.
Soooooo cool. 

And they fit what acts they can on their own disc!!!


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> DA
> They're here!!!!!
> They're here!!!!!
> I'm so excited. '57 Knap is here!!!!!!!
> I love the packaging.
> Rheingold is on right now and it's sounding awesome.
> Soooooo cool.
> 
> And they fit what acts they can on their own disc!!!


*
A wagner fans dream.....
*
-great great mono sound quality
-great great golden era singers
-bargain price

We will never hear singers like that again traverse the mighty ring quadrilogy......praise the opera gods!

How can you not buy 1958 Knappy Ring now, unthinkable.......


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> *
> A wagner fans dream.....
> *
> -great great sound quality
> -great great singers
> -bargain price
> 
> We will never hear singers like that again traverse the mighty ring quadrillogy......praise the opera gods!
> 
> *How can you not buy 1958 Knappy Ring now, unthinkable.......[/*QUOTE]
> 
> Oh, I am. I am.
> Walhall just blows me away
> 
> These casts are just unbelievable!!!


----------



## Itullian

You sure these aren't stereo? :lol:


----------



## Itullian

BTW,
I got my messed up Lohengrin replaced 










Excellent Act l


----------



## Itullian

Now all we need is the '53 Keilberth


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Now all we need is the '53 Keilberth


Yes but there is no cost effective way to visit Bayreuth that year (for Keilberth).......

*
I am pretty sure I have heard the most beautiful ethereal Liebestod (Mild und leise wie er lächelt) of all time *

1959 studio recording of Astrid Varnay doing Wagner opera scences, what a voice to command and so skillfull in synthesizing vocally with the shimmering undulating waves of music, wonderful counterpoint timing......and at 5:42 the final utterance of "Tristan" sent to the angels above, breathtaking!

For a couple dollars used at Amazon it can be yours forever, a treasure........


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Yes but there is no cost effective way to visit Bayreuth that year.......
> 
> *
> I am pretty sure I have heard the most beautiful ethereal Libestod (Mild und leise wie er lächelt) of all time *
> 
> 1959 studio recording of Astrid Varnay doing Wagner opera scences, what a voice to command and so skillfull in synthesizing vocally with the shimmering undulating waves of music, wonderful counterpoint timing......and at 5:42 the final utterance of Tristan sent to the angels above, breathtaking!
> 
> For a couple dollars used at Amazon it can be yours forever, a treasure........


Are they excerpts from whole operas or pieces she recorded separately?


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Are they excerpts from whole operas or pieces she recorded separately?


No that CD only contains studio recorded scences from Tristan, it is not from a complete opera.......

Curious that there is only 1 live complete recording of Tristan opera by Varnay (jochum 1953) , but that Liebestod above is godlike


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> No that CD only contains studio recorded scences from Tristan, it is not from a complete opera.......
> 
> Curious that there is only 1 live complete recording of Tristan opera by Varnay (jochum 1953) , but that Liestod above is godlike


Gettin' it ..................


----------



## Marschallin Blair

DarkAngel said:


> *
> A wagner fans dream.....
> *
> -great great mono sound quality
> -great great golden era singers
> -bargain price
> 
> We will never hear singers like that again traverse the mighty ring quadrillogy......praise the opera gods!
> 
> How can you not buy 1958 Knappy Ring now, unthinkable.......


Or even 'tetralogy.' _;D_


----------



## kineno

There's another Varnay Tristan, from the Met in 1955, under Kempe. Probably not uncut; I haven't listened to it in a while. On the Walhall label.


----------



## Itullian

Not only is the singing great on this 57 Knap set, but with the great sound
and Kna's tempi I'm hearing details not noticed before.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Not only is the singing great on this 57 Knap set, but with the great sound
> and Kna's tempi I'm hearing details not noticed before.


People will not believe us, but the sound is crystal clear with great fidelity.......I have heard many 1950s mono Wagner recordings and 1957 Knappy Walhall is really the best sound available!


----------



## Figleaf

*Romophone CD 'Wagner en français'*










Anyone else have this interesting CD compilation, Romophone's 'Wagner en français'? For those who don't, here's the track listing:

(Der) Ring des Nibelungen: Part 2, '(Die) Walküre', Ein Schwert verheiss mir der Vater *César Vezzani*
(Der) Ring des Nibelungen: Part 2, '(Die) Walküre', Winterstürme wichen dem Wonnemond *César Vezzani*
(Der) Ring des Nibelungen: Part 2, '(Die) Walküre', Der Männer Sippe* Germaine Lubin*
(Der) Ring des Nibelungen: Part 2, '(Die) Walküre', Siegmund heiss ich *René Verdière and Germaine Lubin*
(Der) Ring des Nibelungen: Part 2, '(Die) Walküre', Hojotoho! (Ride of the Valkyries) *Marjorie Lawrence *
(Der) Ring des Nibelungen: Part 2, '(Die) Walküre', Leb wohl (Wotan's Farewell) *Marcel Journet*
(Der) Ring des Nibelungen: Part 3, 'Siegfried', Nothung! Neidliches Schwert! (Forging Song) *Paul Franz*
(Der) Ring des Nibelungen: Part 3, 'Siegfried', ~, Hoho! Hoho! Hahei!*Paul Franz*
(Der) Ring des Nibelungen: Part 3, 'Siegfried', ~, Dass der mein Vater nicht ist (Forest murmurs)*Paul Franz*
(Der) Ring des Nibelungen: Part 3, 'Siegfried', Ewig war ich, ewig bin ich *Germaine Lubin*
(Der) Ring des Nibelungen: Part 4, 'Götterdämmerung', Brünnhilde, heilige Braut! * Charles Rousseliere *
(Der) Ring des Nibelungen: Part 4, 'Götterdämmerung', Starke Scheite (Brünnhildes's Immolation)*Germaine Lubin*

The above are all electrical recordings from 1927- 1933, so nothing terribly ancient or unduly crackly. Journet, Franz and Rousselière, all very great singers, were a little past their vocal prime by the electrical era, though I prefer Franz's electricals because the longer playing time that some of them have (e.g. the 7 minutes 23 seconds of 'Dass der mein Vater') allow him to phrase more expansively than is possible on the usually more cramped acoustic records- though IMO his art is heard at its best in his electrical records from the French heroic repertoire such as Sigurd and Herodiade, rather than in the Wagner excerpts included here. The two Vezzani records are possibly the highlight, showing his perfect diction and shining heroic tone, and Journet's Adieux de Wotan must be the fullest version of that piece by any bass of the Golden Age- it's better sung, and he's in fresher voice, than his Mephistopheles in the complete Faust recorded with Vezzani only two years later. Anyway, I digress, because I wanted to ask a question about the tenor* René Verdière*, whose voice is so lovely (even if he sounds rather lightweight beside Germaine Lubin) in 'Siegmund suis je'. I think I read somewhere on the net that Verdière recorded a complete act of a Wagner opera, I can't remember which, in French of course- but I forgot to bookmark the page, and now I can't find it. It may be a long shot, as not many TC members seem to be interested in French Wagnerians of the 78 era- but does anyone know of a complete act of a Wagner opera, or extensive extracts, featuring René Verdière? TIA!

Here he is with Germaine Lubin:


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## Woodduck

^^^Eet eez love-leee, az well az eh leetol eelairieuze, to eer zeze Vagneriennes francaises. "Siegmund! Ca je t'appelle!" Hon hon hon! :lol:

Owevvair, ahi yam so sor-eee! Ahi yave nevair erde of Monsieur Verdiere. Ee eez eh leetol, ow you say, laeetwaite pour ze role? You sink?


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## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> People will not believe us, but the sound is crystal clear with great fidelity.......I have heard many 1950s mono Wagner recordings and 1957 Knappy Walhall is really the best sound available!


Yes, really enjoying it DA.
I guess Walhall isn't kidding about the 24 bit stuff.
Already on Gotterdammerung 
Who says the Ring is long?


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## DavidA

DarkAngel said:


> *
> A wagner fans dream.....
> *
> -great great mono sound quality
> -great great golden era singers
> -bargain price
> 
> We will never hear singers like that again traverse the mighty ring quadrilogy......praise the opera gods!
> 
> ..


Sorry but how do you know that? Some crystal ball into the future?


----------



## Celloman

Bought this the other day:










The hope is that when they clean out the vaults, they find another Flagstad/Melchior even better than this one. But that hasn't happened yet, so I suppose this is close enough to heaven for now.


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## Itullian

DavidA said:


> Sorry but how do you know that? Some crystal ball into the future?


Come on friend. An opinion ok?
No need to agitate every Wagner thread :tiphat:


----------



## Bill H.

DarkAngel said:


> Otto Wiener for sachs is lighter in tone than others, not a bass-baritone but more of a light baritone and he tends to be more animated than other sachs.......so for me that is another reason that this Meister is worthy pick-up you get different styles for sachs a light baritone and walther a lyric tenor than you are used to hearing.
> 
> I read also that Wieland Wagner (grandson) specically recruited Schock to Bayreuth to sing walther as he had heard him a few years earlier and was very impressed


Schock is also the Walther in the 1956 Kempe Meistersinger recorded in Berlin, along with Grümmer as Eva, and Franz as Sachs.

{edit} Sorry, I didn't see the posting a few pages above that already discusses this recording. But it is one of my favorites of this opera, mono sound notwithstanding.


----------



## Bill H.

DarkAngel said:


> Yes I have had that for a long time......the slight weak spot there is Watson as Eva (compared to Grummer) but still worth owning for sure, hard to find any weak performances during this golden period, a string of winners. Keilberth has more lively orchestral style compared to Knappy, all good for variety sake
> 
> Jess Thomas a great Wagner singer in every role he has recorded that I have heard, and his Lohengrin the reference standard to measure all others for me


If that's the performance I believe it is, I have it in a later reissue on Sony. If so, it was the "consecration" performance of the new Bavarian State Opera house after its post-war rebuilding. The date of the performance was also significant, in that IIRC it was 23 November 1963, when much of the world was still in shock from the events of the previous day.


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## Itullian

Bill H. said:


> Schock is also the Walther in the 1956 Kempe Meistersinger recorded in Berlin, along with Grümmer as Eva, and Franz as Sachs.


It's a unique voice to say the least


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## DavidA

Itullian said:


> Come on friend. An opinion ok?
> No need to agitate every Wagner thread :tiphat:


You don't know what the future will bring. A few years ago no-one would would have predicted Kaufmann!


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## Bill H.

My post above re: the 1963 Keilberth Meistersinger also reminds me of an historic performance that isn't widely available, and I don't recall being mentioned in this thread, which is the December 1949 Bavarian Staatsoper staging. This one featured Hans Hotter as Sachs, a role he enjoyed but found was hard on his voice, hence he didn't do it often. It also had one of the earliest recorded performances that I know of with Kusche as Beckmesser (he was still doing this role in the Kempe, and even in the Keilberth), and was conducted in fine fashion by Eugen Jochum. I obtained versions from a couple of sources, but I don't know if the Walhall release that I have is still available.


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## Bill H.

Eramirez156 said:


> Here are Wagner historical recording you should consider:
> 
> View attachment 69484
> 
> 
> *Der Fliegende Hollander*
> New York -- December 30, 1950; Hans Hotter, Astrid Varnay, Set Svanholm, Sven Nilsson, Thomas Hayward, Hertha Glaz; Fritz Reiner


That Met Dutchman is also available in the "Wagner at the Met" megabox. It's very good.


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## Bill H.

Itullian said:


> The 52 Bayreuth Karajan has good sound DA?
> I've heard it's not good


There have been a number of *really* bad sounding releases of the '52 Karajan Tristan out there, one that I heard is dominated by a boomy bass sound that overwhelms everything else--sounds like an over-the-air transcription recorded off some very poor speakers. I can't speak for the relative qualities of all the album versions shown in DarkAngel's post, but I have read that the source of the one good transcription that exists (and is probably was used for the one DarkAngel likes) came from a set of master tapes owned by Martha Mödl herself. I know the version I have is quite listenable.


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## Bill H.

DarkAngel said:


> Just a reminder ZYX label has the 1951 Knappy Parsifal for $7 at Amazon USA......


And I recently scored a set of Decca/Richmond LPs of this, one of my summer projects will be to digitize it.


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## Bill H.

A few posts have mentioned the 1955 Kna Flying Dutchman.

That same year Keilberth also conducted it, only this time it was recorded by the Decca team, in early stereo (they were probably using the same setup that they did for Keilberth's Ring cycle that season). IIRC it's mostly the same cast, except for Lustig singing Erik instead of Windgassen (who I prefer, under Kna). As might be expected, Keilberth's conducting is a bit more on the energetic side vs. Kna. It's on Testament, so it's not cheap, but the sound is fantastic, you can really 'feel' the stomping of the sailors during their choruses. 

BTW, any performances by Astrid Varnay during this year at Bayreuth must have had a special poignancy for her, since only a few months earlier she had lost her husband (and former voice coach) Hermann Weigert to heart disease.


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## DarkAngel

Where has Bill H been hiding........keep going brother :angel:



Bill H. said:


> A few posts have mentioned the 1955 Kna Flying Dutchman.
> 
> That same year Keilberth also conducted it, only this time it was recorded by the Decca team, in early stereo (they were probably using the same setup that they did for Keilberth's Ring cycle that season). IIRC it's mostly the same cast, except for Lustig singing Erik instead of Windgassen (who I prefer, under Kna). As might be expected, Keilberth's conducting is a bit more on the energetic side vs. Kna. It's on Testament, so it's not cheap, but the sound is fantastic, you can really 'feel' the stomping of the sailors during their choruses.


I think I need that 1955 Astrid Varnay / Keilberth "stereo" Testament label Dutchie.........

Currently listening to 1955 Varnay / Knappy, great performance in very good mono 
sound, love this


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## Itullian

This one again for me.........


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## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Where has Bill H been hiding........keep going brother :angel:
> 
> I think I need that 1955 Astrid Varnay / Keilberth "stereo" Testament label Dutchie.........
> 
> Currently listening to 1955 Varnay / Knappy, great performance in very good mono
> sound, love this


That's high on my list


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## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> This one again for me.........


Has there ever been a better Alberich than Neidlinger........

Hotter still in great voice for Wotan.........

The women all sound great........


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## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Has there ever been a better Alberich than Neidlinger........
> 
> Hotter still in great voice for Wotan.........
> 
> The women all sound great........


Yeah, I love it. Love the sound too.


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## Barbebleu

If anyone is thinking of getting Die Walkure from Bayreuth in 1954 conducted by Joseph Keilberth try and listen to some excerpts first. Neither Maz Lorenz nor Martha Modl are in very good voice. Lorenz tends to scoop into the notes and Modl is very unsteady. To be fair both singers give it their all and the last fifteen minutes of Act 1 are very thrilling but the voices sound as if they are under pressure, Lorenz in particular. Greindl is a great Hunding and Hotter and Varnay are excellent. Ortlinde is sung by a fairly minor singer by the name of Birgit Nilsson. She sounds promising!! On balance its not a bad performance but there are better Walkures out there.


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## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> If anyone is thinking of getting* Die Walkure from Bayreuth in 1954 conducted by Joseph Keilberth *try and listen to some excerpts first. Neither Maz Lorenz nor Martha Modl are in very good voice. Lorenz tends to scoop into the notes and Modl is very unsteady. To be fair both singers give it their all and the last fifteen minutes of Act 1 are very thrilling but the voices sound as if they are under pressure, Lorenz in particular. Greindl is a great Hunding and Hotter and Varnay are excellent. Ortlinde is sung by a fairly minor singer by the name of Birgit Nilsson. She sounds promising!! On balance its not a bad performance but there are better Walkures out there.


Fortunately as an alternative we have 1954 studio Furtwangler WP Walkure with Modl........


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## Itullian

Act 2.


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## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Act 2.


Konya is a very good Lohengrin, and Varnay is a near perfect Ortrud, great live mono sound

I mentioned earlier here my very favorite *live* Lohengrin is Sawallisch with Jess Thomas and Varnay as Ortrud, both are must owns for me.....


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## Barbebleu

Bill H. said:


> My post above re: the 1963 Keilberth Meistersinger also reminds me of an historic performance that isn't widely available, and I don't recall being mentioned in this thread, which is the December 1949 Bavarian Staatsoper staging. This one featured Hans Hotter as Sachs, a role he enjoyed but found was hard on his voice, hence he didn't do it often. It also had one of the earliest recorded performances that I know of with Kusche as Beckmesser (he was still doing this role in the Kempe, and even in the Keilberth), and was conducted in fine fashion by Eugen Jochum. I obtained versions from a couple of sources, but I don't know if the Walhall release that I have is still available.


It's on YouTube. Sounds pretty good too. Treptow isn't the best Walther you will ever hear but the rest of the cast sound fine. I agree that Jochum is excellent. Wagnerheim!


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## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Konya is a very good Lohengrin, and Varnay is a near perfect Ortrud, great live mono sound
> 
> I mentioned earlier here my very favorite *live* Lohengrin is Sawallisch with Jess Thomas and Varnay as Ortrud, both are must owns for me.....


A great Lohengrin in great STEREO sound DA


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## DarkAngel

DarkAngel said:


> *I am pretty sure I have heard the most beautiful ethereal Liebestod (Mild und leise wie er lächelt) of all time *
> 
> 1959 studio recording of Astrid Varnay doing Wagner opera scences, what a voice to command and so skillfull in synthesizing vocally with the shimmering undulating waves of music, wonderful counterpoint timing......and at 5:42 the final utterance of "Tristan" sent to the angels above, breathtaking!
> 
> For a couple dollars used at Amazon it can be yours forever, a treasure........


I was previously not acquainted with the "wesendonck leider" a collection of 5 songs/poems here performed with orchestra. These were composed during the same time frame as Tristan und Isolde opera and Wagner has said he used these as minature studies while composing Tristan......listen to sample and see if you don't hear "Tristan" being born.....Astrid sounds great

Now I love this CD even more!


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## Itullian

^^^^^^WOW
Can definitely hear the beginnings of Tristan DA.
Beautiful.


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## Barbebleu

Are you aware that Kaufmann has recorded the Wesendonck Lieder. Very different with a male voice but very good, nonetheless.


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## Barbebleu

Have you heard the Kinder Katechismus by Wagner. He composed it for Cosima's birthday and a boy soprano choir performed it at the foot of the stairs of their house the morning of her birthday. It is famous for using the redemption motif from the Immolation scene in Götterdämmerung as a theme at the end of the piece. It was recorded by Solti and the VPO and members of the Vienna Boys Choir at the time he recorded Götterdämmerung and can be found on a highlights disc available on Decca Eloquence with some overtures and preludes conducted by Solti, Mehta and Edo de Waart. It was also available on vinyl as part of the three disc talk by Deryck Cooke that was part of the original 22 disc presentation case in 1965. It was coupled with the Siegfried Idyll.


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## Woodduck

If you want the _Wesendonck Lieder,_ there's a recording with Eileen Farrell and Leonard Bernstein which, back in the LP days, was coupled with a fabulous Immolation Scene. It was one of my first Wagner records, and I have to say I've heard a lot of recordings of the songs since then but none better. Just listen to the beauty and expressiveness of this:






The rest are on YT as well. What a pity that Farrell never sang Isolde.

Other singers who have made splendid recordings of the songs are Flagstad, Ludwig, Baker and Norman. They all have the sort of "between soprano and mezzo" voices that Wagner seemed to write his greatest music for.


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## DarkAngel

Woodduck said:


> If you want the _*Wesendonck Lieder*,_ there's a recording with Eileen Farrell and Leonard Bernstein which, back in the LP days, was coupled with a fabulous Immolation Scene. It was one of my first Wagner records, and I have to say I've heard a lot of recordings of the songs since then but none better. Just listen to the beauty and expressiveness of this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The rest are on YT as well. What a pity that Farrell never sang Isolde.
> 
> Other singers who have made splendid recordings of the songs are Flagstad, Ludwig, Baker and Norman. They all have the sort of "between soprano and mezzo" voices that Wagner seemed to write his greatest music for.





Barbebleu said:


> Are you aware that Kaufmann has recorded the *Wesendonck Lieder*. Very different with a male voice but very good, nonetheless.


They all sound a bit different depending on who sings them, definitely can hear the shimmering music cords later used in Tristan opera.........

Barbe mentions male vocalist version (kaufmann) similar to Mahler's "das lied von erde" where there are two male or male female duo versions available, I always prefer the female versions myself

Not finished yet a couple more purchases on the way, Orfeo label this time......



















I had to get the 1959 Matacic Lohengrin after hearing it in this fine "wagners vision" boxset full of great complete 1950s Bayreuth operas as well as extend segments of many other famous versions.....price is very cheap and we have mentioned almost all the complete operas at one point in this thread....


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## Itullian

^^^^^^Getting into the pricey area are we DA? 
You used to get on Itullian about that :lol:

I have the Matacic, but not the Parsifal.


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## Barbebleu

Woodduck said:


> If you want the _Wesendonck Lieder,_ there's a recording with Eileen Farrell and Leonard Bernstein which, back in the LP days, was coupled with a fabulous Immolation Scene. It was one of my first Wagner records, and I have to say I've heard a lot of recordings of the songs since then but none better. Just listen to the beauty and expressiveness of this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The rest are on YT as well. What a pity that Farrell never sang Isolde.
> 
> Other singers who have made splendid recordings of the songs are Flagstad, Ludwig, Baker and Norman. They all have the sort of "between soprano and mezzo" voices that Wagner seemed to write his greatest music for.


Totally agree with you here, WoodDuck. My own favourite is Janet Baker but I can happily listen to the rest. It looks like the Farrell has been deleted by YouTube. The link went to video not available when I tried it. I'll look at the site directly and see if that makes a difference.


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## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> They all sound a bit different depending on who sings them, definitely can hear the shimmering music cords later used in Tristan opera.........
> 
> Barbe mentions male vocalist version (kaufmann) similar to Mahler's "das lied von erde" where there are two male or male female duo versions available, I always prefer the female versions myself
> 
> Not finished yet a couple more purchases on the way, Orfeo label this time......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I had to get the 1959 Matacic Lohengrin after hearing it in this fine "wagners vision" boxset full of great complete 1950s Bayreuth operas as well as extend segments of many other famous versions.....price is very cheap and we have mentioned almost all the complete operas at one point in this thread....


I like the final line at the bottom of the Vision box. I presume they used a medium to get Wagner's authorisation?


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## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> I like the final line at the bottom of the Vision box. I presume they used a medium to get Wagner's authorisation?


Marketing guys like to stretch things a bit, forgot to put "grandchildren of" in front of Wagner 



Itullian said:


> ^^^^^^Getting into the pricey area are we DA?
> You used to get on Itullian about that :lol:
> 
> I have the Matacic, but not the Parsifal.


Very pricey 

I am almost ready for the asylum as I also recently paid a fortune for the Kubelik Parsifal, Meister everyone raves about.....but I have my doubts about these being so great, we shall see


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## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Marketing guys like to stretch things a bit, forgot to put "grandchildren of" in front of Wagner
> 
> Very pricey
> 
> I am almost ready for the asylum as I also recently paid a fortune for the Kubelik Parsifal, Meister everyone raves about.....but I have my doubts about these being so great, we shall see


I'm not keen on having Stewart as Gurnemanz in Parsifal. So I held off on that one.


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## Woodduck

Itullian said:


> I'm not keen on having Stewart as Gurnemanz in Parsifal. So I held off on that one.


Stewart sings Amfortas. In the final scene excerpted on YT he sounds terrific.


----------



## Itullian

Woodduck said:


> Stewart sings Amfortas. In the final scene excerpted on YT he sounds terrific.


Thanks, my mistake


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## Barbebleu

Woodduck said:


> Stewart sings Amfortas. In the final scene excerpted on YT he sounds terrific.


This is a very good Parsifal. I like Vickers so I'm biased here. Neidlinger is a great Klingsor and Hotter, although having some vocal difficulties due to severe back pains is good and Barbro Ericson is acceptable even though she hadn't the ideal voice for the part. It is made more memorable and poignant because it was one of Knappertsbusch's final performances at Bayreuth. He became ill later that year and died a year later. Anja Silja is one of the flower maidens too!


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## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> Totally agree with you here, WoodDuck. My own favourite is *Janet Baker *but I can happily listen to the rest. It looks like the Farrell has been deleted by YouTube. The link went to video not available when I tried it. I'll look at the site directly and see if that makes a difference.


Duck and Barbebleu have found another possible purchase for me, I also like Baker the best of those Wesendonk mentioned, the darker mezzo tone is appealing and she is nicely animated in her delivery......the used price is much higher than it should be.

The 1CD set I want is an older used release for $15  
I can get the EMI Icon boxset for that price but I don't see much there I need that I don't already have (Mahler songs etc)........so what to do

Since tidal has Baker Icon boxset in lossless streaming no need to do anything foolish......










Itullian......any more CDs arrive?


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## DarkAngel

While in Tidal streaming I see they have the latest 1957 Kempe ROH Ring on Walhall label, I gave Walkure a spin. I am cautious of 1950s Wagner done outside of Bayreuth since sound quality can be less than expected, but here we have very good sound although not quite as good as 1957-58 Knappy Bayreuth Walhall for instance......previous release on Testament label Amazon user had complained of sound but here no issues I can hear.

What got my attention was Walkure act 3 (Hotter and Nilsson) Hotter gives us a different emotional perspective than his 1952 Keilberth Ring for Myto (recently discussed here) in 1952 he was commanding and authoritative with empathy towards Brunhilde knowing she did what she thought her father really wanted.......in 1957 Kempe he is broken and sounds defeated, there is a sense of self pity, I was surprised to hear this and wondered does Hotter free lance this or do different directors each year emphasize different emotional perspectives, interesting......


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## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Duck and Barbebleu have found another possible purchase for me, I also like Baker the best of those Wesendonk mentioned, the darker mezzo tone is appealing and she is nicely animated in her delivery......the used price is much higher than it should be.
> 
> The 1CD set I want is an older used release for $15
> I can get the EMI Icon boxset for that price but I don't see much there I need that I don't already have (Mahler songs etc)........so what to do
> 
> Since tidal has Baker Icon boxset in lossless streaming no need to do anything foolish......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Itullian......any more CDs arrive?


Nope. It's been a dry spell for me. Trying to stay on my budget.
I have been listening to the Kempe '60. What a great Ring that was.
Next month a have a few purchases to make. 

DA, just curious. If you had the Matacic in that big Wagner Vision box, why did you purchase the Orfeo as well? thanks


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> DA, just curious. If you had the Matacic in that big Wagner Vision box, *why did you purchase the Orfeo as well?* thanks


Because I have too many CDs......

I purchased the Orfeo Lohengrin Matacic first and then a few days later when exploring that great boxset found it was in there also, yes I feel like a real fool (and may soon reach Parsifal levels)......

That is not the first time I have purchased a CD and later found out I already had it and just forgot or was hidden somewhere


----------



## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> While in Tidal streaming I see they have the latest 1957 Kempe ROH Ring on Walhall label, I gave Walkure a spin. I am cautious of 1950s Wagner done outside of Bayreuth since sound quality can be less than expected, but here we have very good sound although not quite as good as 1957-58 Knappy Bayreuth Walhall for instance......previous release on Testament label Amazon user had complained of sound but here no issues I can hear.
> 
> What got my attention was Walkure act 3 (Hotter and Nilsson) Hotter gives us a different emotional perspective than his 1952 Keilberth Ring for Myto (recently discussed here) in 1952 he was commanding and authoritative with empathy towards Brunhilde knowing she did what she thought her father really wanted.......in 1957 Kempe he is broken and sounds defeated, there is a sense of self pity, I was surprised to hear this and wondered *does Hotter free lance this or do different directors each year emphasize different emotional perspectives, interesting......*


Probably both... But my guess is that directors tended to give an awesomely intelligent artist like Hotter fairly free reign to present his own perspectives on the characters he played. No doubt his active imagination enjoyed rethinking his roles, trying different things, and responding to the production and colleagues who surrounded him at the moment. I don't know how he got on with Wieland Wagner, but the grandson was evidently an inspired director of singers (just like grandpa), and may have contributed to Hotter's conception of Wotan, as he did to Nilsson's Isolde and the portrayals of many other singers.


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Because I have too many CDs......
> 
> I purchased the Orfeo Lohengrin Matacic first and then a few days later when exploring that great boxset found it was in there also, yes I feel like a real fool (and may soon reach Parsifal levels)......
> 
> That is not the first time I have purchased a CD and later found out I already had it and just forgot or was hidden somewhere


I know what you mean DA. It's very easy to forget what's in those box sets.


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> While in Tidal streaming I see they have the latest *1957 Kempe ROH Ring on Walhall label*, I gave Walkure a spin. I am cautious of 1950s Wagner done outside of Bayreuth since sound quality can be less than expected, but here we have very good sound although not quite as good as 1957-58 Knappy Bayreuth Walhall for instance......previous release on Testament label Amazon user had complained of sound but here no issues I can hear.
> 
> What got my attention was Walkure act 3 (Hotter and Nilsson) Hotter gives us a different emotional perspective than his 1952 Keilberth Ring for Myto (recently discussed here) in 1952 he was commanding and authoritative with empathy towards Brunhilde knowing she did what she thought her father really wanted.......in 1957 Kempe he is broken and sounds defeated, there is a sense of self pity, I was surprised to hear this and wondered does Hotter free lance this or do different directors each year emphasize different emotional perspectives, interesting......


I wonder if that Kempe Ring is remastered by Walhall?
Do you know if Walhall is remastering all their releases?


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> I wonder if that Kempe Ring is remastered by Walhall?
> Do you know if Walhall is remastering all their releases?


All Walhall red "eternity series" have 24/96 remaster, sound is very good better than the 1959 ROH Franz Konwitschny Ring just released......don't worry the 1960 Kempe Bayreuth Ring on Myto is a great one we are in good shape


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> All Walhall red "eternity series" have 24/96 remaster, sound is very good better than the 1959 ROH Franz Konwitschny Ring just released......don't worry the 1960 Kempe Ring on Myto is a great one we are in good shape


Thanks DA. I really didn't care for the sound of the Konwitschny.
And yes, I mainly have interest in the Bayreuth stuff anyway.
With some exceptions


----------



## Itullian

Any tracking on your Kubelik trifecta?
i'd like to hear your opinion when you get them.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Any tracking on your Kubelik trifecta?
> i'd like to hear your opinion when you get them.


The Kubelik Lohengrin already arrived and it is very good with stereo sound but it will not challenge my reference studio or live versions of Lohengrin (Jess Thomas with Kempe and Sawallisch)

The imports from UK Kubelik Parsifal and Meister probably another week or so, I had another recent order from zoverstock and it took just over 3 weeks.......


----------



## DarkAngel

One of our favorite Wagner sopranos Leonie Rysanek gave over 300 performances at the MET from 1959-96 and on the night of her last performance thank god someone had the presence of mind to film the final curtain call from backstage, this is so exciting and almost beyond what words can express......






Amazing she is age 69 here and died only two years later, one of the great ones


----------



## Itullian

^That was fantastic DA.
Thank you for that :tiphat:


----------



## Allanmcf

What was she performing in?


----------



## DarkAngel

Allanmcf said:


> What was she performing in?


The opera is Tchaikovsky's Pique Dame (queen of spades), remember she is age 69 here, we can recognize the conductor on stage - Valery Gergiev

I thought that might be a young Anna Netrebko with her, but it is not.......


----------



## Allanmcf

DarkAngel said:


> The opera is Tchaikovsky's Pique Dame (queen of spades), remember she is age 69 here, we can recognize the conductor on stage - Valery Gergiev
> 
> I thought that might be a young Anna Netrebko with her, but it is not.......


Thanks DA. I looked it up on the Internet, which would have been more sensible than posting the question.


----------



## Itullian

Was browsing youtube and stumbled across this........ had to have it.
I purchased the Walhall Eternity with 24bit issue


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> Was browsing youtube and stumbled across this........ had to have it.
> I purchased the Walhall Eternity with 24bit issue


Yep. That's a good one. Walhall are going to bankrupt us all. Schuchter not pre-eminent among Wagner conductors and as far as I can research this is his only recorded performance.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Was browsing youtube and stumbled across this........ had to have it.
> I purchased the Walhall Eternity with 24bit issue


More Rudolf Schock, don't recognize some of those names including the conductor......


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> That is not the first time I have purchased a CD and later found out I already had it and just forgot or was hidden somewhere


Regrettably I have to confess to similar acts of idiocy.


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> More Rudolf Schock, don't recognize some of those names including the conductor......


Bought it strictly by what I heard on youtube.
Frick sounded awesome.

And it's a Reference


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Bought it strictly by what I heard on youtube.
> Frick sounded awesome.
> 
> And it's a Reference


Itullian this seems to be a great find, like what I hear, very good 1953 sound, who needs big name singers






But......don't forget the 1953 Keilberth Bayreuth with all star cast on ZYX label, $7 Amazon


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Itullian this seems to be a great find, like what I hear, very good 1953 sound, who needs big name singers


I did too.
It just sounded good to me. Passionate, maybe a little rugged, but I liked it.
And I loved the organ at the end of Act 2. 

24 BIT can only help 

Metternick was known as a powerful bass and Klose was a regular at Bayreuth.


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Itullian this seems to be a great find, like what I hear, very good 1953 sound, who needs big name singers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But......don't forget the 1953 Keilberth Bayreuth with all star cast on ZYX label, $7 Amazon


its on my list 
hows the sound on it DA?


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> its on my list
> hows the sound on it DA?


Sound is very good, a great wagner recording at any price and at $7 a gift from the opera gods










My Kubeliks are all here now......this is the Parsifal that all the critics love, all the amazon voters love it, so I should love it right? The answer for me is very good overall but not great because of a shortfall.....*a very average sounding Parsifal in James King*

Great modern sound, Kubeliks conducting is great two big positives

Gurnemanz is very good with Kurt Moll, the big positive surprise for me was Yvonne Minton as Kundry she really plays the part with dramatic intensity and wonderfull vocal variation, nice mezzo tone.......unfortunately making James King straight laced conservative sounding vocals flat by comparison, nothing really wrong just not inspiring, the lyric beauty and skillfull vocal variation of Jess Thomas, Windgassen, Vickers etc is just not there


----------



## Itullian

^Hmm, I'll have to re listen to mine.
I don't recall having a problem with him.
Though I'm not a big fan.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> ^Hmm, I'll have to re listen to mine.
> I don't recall having a problem with him.
> Though I'm not a big fan.


Many people must think James King is just great because he is also in the Boulez Parsifal which also receives almost equal effusive praise at Amazon, not my cup of tea I stick with mighty 1962 Knappy with Jess Thomas.....


----------



## Itullian

The 62 is my favorite too.
I do like the Solti as well.


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Many people must think James King is just great because he is also in the Boulez Parsifal which also receives almost equal effusive praise at Amazon, not my cup of tea I stick with mighty 1962 Knappy with Jess Thomas.....


I gave the Boulez away. I thought it was too rigid.


----------



## Woodduck

Interesting to hear that James King still sounds stiff-necked in the Kubelik _Parsifal_. He was one of three reasons not to own the Boulez: zippy conducting, a wobbly shrieking Kundry (Gwyneth Jones), and King. Three strikes and you're out! Don't know what those Amazon reviewers are thinking (my review is virtually the only one of the Boulez that tells it like it is). Wagner's heldentenor roles are a perennial problem, and several otherwise fine _Parsifal_ recordings are compromised by the tenor. Of post-Melchior Wagnerians, Thomas and Vickers are the most reliable for combined voice and interpretation, though Domingo also sounds quite good in the part.


----------



## DavidA

Woodduck said:


> Interesting to hear that James King still sounds stiff-necked in the Kubelik _Parsifal_. He was one of three reasons not to own the Boulez: zippy conducting, a wobbly shrieking Kundry (Gwyneth Jones), and King. Three strikes and you're out! Don't know what those Amazon reviewers are thinking (my review is virtually the only one of the Boulez that tells it like it is). Wagner's heldentenor roles are a perennial problem, and several otherwise fine _Parsifal_ recordings are compromised by the tenor. Of post-Melchior Wagnerians, Thomas and Vickers are the most reliable for combined voice and interpretation, though Domingo also sounds quite good in the part.


Of course some Amazon reviews are of an entirely different recording anyway.


----------



## Woodduck

DavidA said:


> Of course some Amazon reviews are of an entirely different recording anyway.


Amazon does have a way of mismatching recordings with reviews of different recordings. How that happens seems to be eternally a mystery to everyone, including possibly Amazon. Apparently they don't consider it a problem worthy of their attention.


----------



## Itullian

DavidA said:


> Of course some Amazon reviews are of an entirely different recording anyway.


I know. That's crazy, isn't it?
You really have to read carefully.


----------



## DavidA

Itullian said:


> I know. That's crazy, isn't it?
> You really have to read carefully.


There are also some idiot reviews giving one star because (eg) the discs were faulty. Nothing about the music.


----------



## DavidA

Woodduck said:


> Interesting to hear that James King still sounds stiff-necked in the Kubelik _Parsifal_. He was one of three reasons not to own the Boulez: zippy conducting, a wobbly shrieking Kundry (Gwyneth Jones), and King. Three strikes and you're out! Don't know what those Amazon reviewers are thinking (my review is virtually the only one of the Boulez that tells it like it is). Wagner's heldentenor roles are a perennial problem, and several otherwise fine _Parsifal_ recordings are compromised by the tenor. Of post-Melchior Wagnerians, Thomas and Vickers are the most reliable for combined voice and interpretation, though Domingo also sounds quite good in the part.


King is wooden in the Bohm Ring and even more so in the Solti. Serious problem in Walkure!


----------



## Itullian

DavidA said:


> There are also some idiot reviews giving one star because (eg) the discs were faulty. Nothing about the music.


Yes, like messed up mp3 files.

I read that Amazon leaves wrong reviews there on purpose.

What about you and that Karajan Parsifal highlights cd?
I remember that.


----------



## DavidA

Itullian said:


> Yes, like messed up mp3 files.
> 
> I read that Amazon leaves wrong reviews there on purpose.
> 
> What about you and that Karajan Parsifal highlights cd?
> I remember that.


that was somewhat different in that it was a highlights disc (from Japan) advertised as a complete set for £10. I did get a refund and an apology from the company who said Amazon had advertised in the wrong part of their website. No complaints though. I got to listen for nothing!


----------



## Figleaf

Artur Bodanzky's 1938 Parsifal can be downloaded here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwAWHW-mPwZqVUlEc08xcEwyOHc/view?usp=sharing

Amfortas - Friedrich Schorr
Titurel - Norman Cordon
Gurnemanz - Emanuel List
Parsifal - Lauritz Melchior
Klingsor - Arnold Gabor
Kundry - Kirsten Flagstad
Alto Stimme - Doris Doe


----------



## Woodduck

Figleaf said:


> Artur Bodanzky's 1938 Parsifal can be downloaded here:
> 
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwAWHW-mPwZqVUlEc08xcEwyOHc/view?usp=sharing
> 
> Amfortas - Friedrich Schorr
> Titurel - Norman Cordon
> Gurnemanz - Emanuel List
> Parsifal - Lauritz Melchior
> Klingsor - Arnold Gabor
> Kundry - Kirsten Flagstad
> Alto Stimme - Doris Doe


Thanks. I just started the prelude. What horrendous sound! Possibly the worst I've heard in my entire life. If you've never heard the music before you'd have little idea of the orchestration. Subtleties disappear completely behind noise. I see the total running time is 3:41, which means either that some passages are played very fast (though the prelude is slow) or the opera isn't all here; maybe something was cut in performance or there are chunks of the recording missing (there is a little piece missing from the prelude). Hmmm, yes...after the prelude is over, tempos are very fast indeed, and there's another snippet missing from the recording.

I'm listening now to Friedrich Schorr's Amfortas. His magnificent voice, legato style, and intelligence cut right through the noise. Oh, to have a heldenbariton like him around now! Emanuel List's Gurnemanz sounds pretty solid, though unimaginative. Bodansky keeps his narrative moving. More chunks missing from the music! Perfect tempo for the procession to the temple, and the knights sound decent, though it's clearly the Met and not Bayreuth, but the other choruses are quite distant. Titurel, way off somewhere, sounds like a great singer (who was Norman Cordon? He should have been the Gurnemanz). Bodansky rushes Schorr here; he seems to be after maximum contrast between fast and slow music.

Well, so much for Act 1. I'll have to resume later. I looked up Norman Cordon, apparently another superb singer no one talks about: http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/traveling-culture/chau1/pdf/cordon/1/brochure.pdf


----------



## Itullian

DA
Do you have this Lohengrin?
It's very good and good sound.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> DA
> Do you have this Lohengrin?
> It's very good and good sound.


No have.......that's a motely looking "my schwan" on the cover photo though.........:lol:
(I will check it out)

I do now have this as of today's mail delivery:


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> DA
> Do you have this Lohengrin?
> It's very good and good sound.


I do actually have that in the old opera d oro release, sound probably improved in new version you show


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> No have.......that's a motely looking "my schwan" on the cover photo though.........:lol:
> (I will check it out)
> 
> I do now have this as of today's mail delivery:


Looking forward to your review


----------



## Itullian

Lohengrin has shipped 

I hope its good.


----------



## Barbebleu

Well, so much for the sabbatical. I have just ordered another Meistersinger. This one is the Knappertsbusch on Naxos Historical. Recorded in Vienna between 1950 and 1951 with the VPO. Apparently it took a year because of Paul Schoeffler's illness which meant postponing some of the sessions until he was well again. I didn't know of its existence until I saw a picture of the cd cover while looking at some other Kna images! Bankruptcy and/or divorce beckons!


----------



## Barbebleu

Can someone kindly remind me what the cut-off date is for what we consider to be an historical recording. Is it 1960 or later, say 1965 or even 1970? Thank you. I'm too lazy to read through all the posts.


----------



## Barbebleu

Knappertsbusch Naxos Meistersinger has just arrived. Hopefully I'll get to listen to it reasonably soon.


----------



## Barbebleu

Isn't it curious that there are no great recordings of Parsifal from the New York Met. Even in the Wagner at the Met box it is conspicuous by its absence. You would think that there must be something languishing in the vaults somewhere.


----------



## Woodduck

Barbebleu said:


> Isn't it curious that there are no great recordings of Parsifal from the New York Met. Even in the Wagner at the Met box it is conspicuous by its absence. You would think that there must be something languishing in the vaults somewhere.


Not so fast! There's this from 1938, which Figleaf brought up a while back and I started commenting upon:

Artur Bodanzky's 1938 Parsifal can be downloaded here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwA...ew?usp=sharing

Amfortas - Friedrich Schorr
Titurel - Norman Cordon
Gurnemanz - Emanuel List
Parsifal - Lauritz Melchior
Klingsor - Arnold Gabor
Kundry - Kirsten Flagstad
Alto Stimme - Doris Doe

Here were my off-the-cuff responses while listening, plus additional remarks:

Thanks. I just started the prelude. What horrendous sound! Possibly the worst I've heard in my entire life. If you've never heard the music before you'd have little idea of the orchestration. Subtleties disappear completely behind noise. I see the total running time is 3:41, which means either that some passages are played very fast (though the prelude is slow) or the opera isn't all here; maybe something was cut in performance or there are chunks of the recording missing (there is a little piece missing from the prelude). Hmmm, yes...after the prelude is over, tempos are very fast indeed, and there's another snippet missing from the recording.

I'm listening now to Friedrich Schorr's Amfortas. His magnificent voice, legato style, and intelligence cut right through the noise. Oh, to have a heldenbariton like him around now! Emanuel List's Gurnemanz sounds pretty solid, though unimaginative. Bodansky keeps his narrative moving. More chunks missing from the music! Perfect tempo for the procession to the temple, and the knights sound decent, though it's clearly the Met and not Bayreuth, but the other choruses are quite distant. Titurel, way off somewhere, sounds like a great singer (who was Norman Cordon? He should have been the Gurnemanz). Bodanzky rushes Schorr here; he seems to be after maximum contrast between fast and slow music.

Act 2 brings a change of conductor: Erich Leinsdorf was apparently drafted to give Bodanzky a rest. He gives us the fastest prelude I've ever heard, faster than Wagner asks for ("with movement but not rushed"). He also zips through the lovely flower maidens' waltz at such a clip that the singers can't execute it clearly and fall behind; the result is a horrible mess. Otherwise the act goes very well, with a superbly gloating and nasty Klingsor (better than anyone on record except Hermann Uhde), Flagstad predictably a little cool but vocally impeccable, and Melchior simply wiping out the competition, catching every nuance of character and emotion in this critical scene.

Act 3 brings back List's Gurnemanz; I think the singer was past his prime, really, and I missed the nuance others have brought to the part. But Bodanzky conducts with power and the other singers acquit themselves well. As in act 2, Melchior makes the final scene a true climax of the drama, and the ending has a feeling of genuine catharsis as it should.

This is not a recording for those not well acquainted with the opera, owing to its poor sound quality. I don't know how the recording was made, but there are little bits of music missing here and there, as if someone was changing tapes by some inefficient means. Neverthelss it's a worthy historical document for some fine singing and conducting (I think Bodanzky was the Met's major Wagnerian in those days), and above all for the magnificently sung Parsifal of Lauritz Melchior. Fortunately, he also made commercial recordings at about this time of his act 2 scene with Flagstad and his final scene in act 3, so we can hear him in superior sound.


----------



## Itullian

Barbebleu said:


> Can someone kindly remind me what the cut-off date is for what we consider to be an historical recording. Is it 1960 or later, say 1965 or even 1970? Thank you. I'm too lazy to read through all the posts.


Mostly 60s and before, but it's not rigid.
Post whatever you'd like.


----------



## Bill H.

Barbebleu said:


> Isn't it curious that there are no great recordings of Parsifal from the New York Met. Even in the Wagner at the Met box it is conspicuous by its absence. You would think that there must be something languishing in the vaults somewhere.


Somewhere I have an April 1952 program from the Met that has a Parsifal performance featured, which included Hans Hotter as Amfortas. I know it was from 1952 because: 1) I checked it in their historical database, and 2) there is an advert in the program for the NEW recording of Parsifal from the re-opening of Bayreuth under Knappertsbusch--yes, the historic 1951. 
I don't know if there exists any archival recording available of one of these Met performances, but it might be one to look for.


----------



## DarkAngel

DarkAngel said:


> I do now have this as of today's mail delivery:


Duck mentioned this Knappy Parsifal earlier in this thread, after listening to samples I knew it would soon be mine.....

A 1964 Bayreuth performance in very clear detailed mono sound, overall a great cast and close to the best available performance on CD. Vickers is a great Parsifal (along with 1962 Jess Thomas) giving a wonderful characterization with vigor and drama, great tonal flexibility with his voice brings his character alive, beautiful lyric top and able to drop to a heroic lower tone as needed, a refreshing upgrade from the less imaginative straight James King with Kubelik and Boulez, his final grail scence Vickers has more urgency than most giving it a distinct style......the 1962 Knap with Jess Thomas is a more majestic or cosmic approach, both work great

We have an unkown (to me) for Kundry with Barbro Ericson, her vocal tone is the preferred mezzo range, and she does everything fine but just not a great or exceptional performance on the greatest wagner stage of Bayreuth, I prefer 1962 Irene Dalis for Knap and Yvonne Minton for Kubelik as Kundry

For Klingsor (and Alberich in Ring) it is hard to imagine anyone better than Gustav Neidlinger, the best of the best with the dark sinister voiced characters

For Gurnemanz although past his prime singing days Hans Hotter can still deliver with his vast experience and still great vocal characterization.....even though hard to believe he is much better in the early 1950s, a solid performance. Kurt Moll also very good with Kubelik, I was impressed with him

So one of the best Parsifals available, I would take this over the much praised Kubelik, but still for me everything competes for 2nd place to the mighty stereo 1962 Knappy.........


----------



## Itullian

^Thanks for the great review DA. Glad you're enjoying it.

Because of price, I'll be sticking to 62 Knap, Kub and Solti for awhile.
Maybe add the 51 later. 
Still have many other historicals on my list.
And I'm not a huge fan of the sound of Vickers voice. Although
I acknowledge he's a great singer.


----------



## DarkAngel

Woodduck said:


> Not so fast! There's this from 1938, which Figleaf brought up a while back and I started commenting upon:
> 
> Artur Bodanzky's 1938 Parsifal can be downloaded here:
> 
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwA...ew?usp=sharing
> 
> Amfortas - Friedrich Schorr
> Titurel - Norman Cordon
> Gurnemanz - Emanuel List
> Parsifal - Lauritz Melchior
> Klingsor - Arnold Gabor
> Kundry - Kirsten Flagstad
> Alto Stimme - Doris Doe
> 
> Act *2 brings a change of conductor: Erich Leinsdorf was apparently drafted to give Bodanzky a rest.* He gives us the fastest prelude I've ever heard, faster than Wagner asks for ("with movement but not rushed"). He also zips through the lovely flower maidens' waltz at such a clip that the singers can't execute it clearly and fall behind; the result is a horrible mess. Otherwise the act goes very well, with a superbly gloating and nasty Klingsor (better than anyone on record except Hermann Uhde), Flagstad predictably a little cool but vocally impeccable, and Melchior simply wiping out the competition, catching every nuance of character and emotion in this critical scene.


I almost never listen to opera before 1950, is this a common event to have a back-up conductor to finish a long wagner opera? Or is that a test to see if we really read this post.......

Probably just combining two recordings to make the best composite release?


----------



## Itullian

DA,
Have you had a chance to listen to Kubelik's Meistersinger yet?


----------



## kineno

*Reason for 2 conductors in 1938 Met Parsifal*

According to the booklet accompanying the Myto CDs of the Met 1938 Parsifal, Bodanzky suffered a coronary attack during Act 1. Leinsdorf was in the house, and took over, conducting act 2. Bodanzky recovered sufficiently to conduct act 3. Regarding the frequent gaps: "the performance is preserved on acetates which were not recorded with the generally used 'overlap' system introduced in Europe. In this case the recording engineer switched over to the next acetate at the end of the first one- hence there is a gap of a few seconds every time a new acetate was started."


----------



## Clayton

Whilst the English cricket season interrupts opera listening; I received in the post today a delivery from Pristine and pressed play a few minutes ago

Die Meistersinger Von Nürnberg 
Ferdinand Frantz - Hans Sachs
Gottlob Frick - Veit Pogner
Elisabeth Grümmer - Eva
Gerhard Unger - Davis
Hermann Prey - Ein Nachtwächter

Choirs of the Municipal Opera and German State Opera, Berlin 
(chorus master: Hermann Lüddecke)
Choir of St. Hedwin's Cathedral, Berlin
(chorus-master: Karl Forster) 
Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra 
Conducted by Rudolf Kempe
Studio recording from 1956

XR remastering by Andrew Rose at Pristine Audio, August-October 2010









So far absolutely thrilling and beautiful sound. I have not heard any other release of this recording before but this is wonderful


----------



## Itullian

^^^
Been wanting that one for a looooooooooooooooong time


----------



## DarkAngel

Clayton said:


> XR remastering by Andrew Rose at Pristine Audio, August-October 2010
> 
> View attachment 70328
> 
> 
> So far absolutely thrilling and beautiful sound. I have not heard any other release of this recording before but this is wonderful


Good pick up lad, that's the one we keep talking about.....even better than EMI release with Pristine XR!










Why stop now, go ahead and get the 1953 Krauss Ring in Pristine XR remaster with ambient stereo :devil:


----------



## Itullian

Only the price stops me from getting those


----------



## Clayton

DarkAngel said:


> ...Why stop now, go ahead and get the 1953 Krauss Ring in Pristine XR remaster with ambient stereo :devil:


I had to self extract a kidney to auction for funds to purchase the Kempe so will have to wait for it to grow back

err...

it _will_ grow back, won't it?


----------



## Clayton

Itullian said:


> Only the price stops me from getting those


You can listen to a sound sample on their site

https://www.pristineclassical.com/paco052.html

then maybe the price will not stop you

(so maybe listening to the sample is not so a good idea)

seriously though, I think this is an amazing recording and if you cancel a couple of other purchase plans to buy this, you will not regret it


----------



## Itullian

Clayton said:


> You can listen to a sound sample on their site
> 
> https://www.pristineclassical.com/paco052.html
> 
> then maybe the price will not stop you
> 
> (so maybe listening to the sample is not so a good idea)
> 
> seriously though, I think this is an amazing recording and if you cancel a couple of other purchase plans to buy this, you will not regret it


I can tell by listening to the sample that Kempe loves this opera
and uses the perfect tempi.
The quintet is exquisite.


----------



## DarkAngel

DarkAngel said:


> I do now have this as of today's mail delivery:


I want to mention how nice the booklet is that comes with these Orfeo label Bayreuth live recordings compared to the typical bare bones track listing of Walhall, Andromeda, Myto etc

Over 20 individual BW photos of each singer including all the minor parts, plus many other actual scences from live performance at Bayreuth, you get a real feel for this Parsifal that connects while you listen to CD......

A small consolation to ease the painfull process of actually paying for these expensive sets


----------



## Itullian

^Yes, they are beautifully done DA. They are very classy.


----------



## Itullian

Smiley Lohey is here. :lol:


----------



## Figleaf

Woodduck said:


> Not so fast! There's this from 1938, which Figleaf brought up a while back and I started commenting upon:
> 
> Artur Bodanzky's 1938 Parsifal can be downloaded here:
> 
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwA...ew?usp=sharing
> 
> Amfortas - Friedrich Schorr
> Titurel - Norman Cordon
> Gurnemanz - Emanuel List
> Parsifal - Lauritz Melchior
> Klingsor - Arnold Gabor
> Kundry - Kirsten Flagstad
> Alto Stimme - Doris Doe
> 
> Here were my off-the-cuff responses while listening, plus additional remarks:
> 
> Thanks. I just started the prelude. What horrendous sound! Possibly the worst I've heard in my entire life. If you've never heard the music before you'd have little idea of the orchestration. Subtleties disappear completely behind noise. I see the total running time is 3:41, which means either that some passages are played very fast (though the prelude is slow) or the opera isn't all here; maybe something was cut in performance or there are chunks of the recording missing (there is a little piece missing from the prelude). Hmmm, yes...after the prelude is over, tempos are very fast indeed, and there's another snippet missing from the recording.
> 
> I'm listening now to Friedrich Schorr's Amfortas. His magnificent voice, legato style, and intelligence cut right through the noise. Oh, to have a heldenbariton like him around now! Emanuel List's Gurnemanz sounds pretty solid, though unimaginative. Bodansky keeps his narrative moving. More chunks missing from the music! Perfect tempo for the procession to the temple, and the knights sound decent, though it's clearly the Met and not Bayreuth, but the other choruses are quite distant. Titurel, way off somewhere, sounds like a great singer (who was Norman Cordon? He should have been the Gurnemanz). Bodanzky rushes Schorr here; he seems to be after maximum contrast between fast and slow music.
> 
> Act 2 brings a change of conductor: Erich Leinsdorf was apparently drafted to give Bodanzky a rest. He gives us the fastest prelude I've ever heard, faster than Wagner asks for ("with movement but not rushed"). *He also zips through the lovely flower maidens' waltz at such a clip that the singers can't execute it clearly and fall behind; the result is a horrible mess.* Otherwise the act goes very well, with a superbly gloating and nasty Klingsor (better than anyone on record except Hermann Uhde), Flagstad predictably a little cool but vocally impeccable, and Melchior simply wiping out the competition, catching every nuance of character and emotion in this critical scene.
> 
> Act 3 brings back List's Gurnemanz; I think the singer was past his prime, really, and I missed the nuance others have brought to the part. But Bodanzky conducts with power and the other singers acquit themselves well. As in act 2, Melchior makes the final scene a true climax of the drama, and the ending has a feeling of genuine catharsis as it should.
> 
> This is not a recording for those not well acquainted with the opera, owing to its poor sound quality. I don't know how the recording was made, but there are little bits of music missing here and there, as if someone was changing tapes by some inefficient means. Neverthelss it's a worthy historical document for some fine singing and conducting (I think Bodanzky was the Met's major Wagnerian in those days), and above all for the magnificently sung Parsifal of Lauritz Melchior. Fortunately, he also made commercial recordings at about this time of his act 2 scene with Flagstad and his final scene in act 3, so we can hear him in superior sound.


Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts on the Bodanzky Parsifal. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought the flower maidens sounded awful. I don't pick up on the rushed tempi, but I thought they sounded like a bunch of shrieking harpies- I'm such a Wagner newbie that I don't know whether that is how they were always intended to sound. I hope not. Regarding Flagstad's coolness, I've never found her an interesting singer in spite of a pleasant voice, and I'm afraid my attention began to wane once the ladies began to sing, though I think I made it to the end. It was my first Parsifal, and I don't know if there would be a second. Too much Kundry and flower maidens for me. It usually is the women, especially the sopranos, that put me off Wagner. Think of the famous Ride of the Valkyries/ ho jo to thing, with all that shrieking and cackling- my ears can't take it! On the positive side, the male cast were all excellent, including List- past his prime or otherwise!


----------



## DarkAngel

*Jess Thomas Lohengrin 1964 studio vs 1962 live*

I had previously thought the 1964 studio Kempe was my favorite version, but after some comparisons tonight (and listening to other Lohengrins) I now favor the live 1962 Sawallisch as the best. The live 1962 sound is extremely good in stereo with even better 3D stage presentation than the 1964 studio recording, and Sawallisch is just masterful in catching the atmospherics, nice forward momentum and has the best musical climax of any version......

Jess Thomas is both more supple and flexible of tone as well as more commanding and heroic in 1962 live, the final tale of Lohengrins identity as the grail knight of Monsalvat and son of Parsifal has never been better told for me, Thomas effortlessly soars above the orchestra and then caresses you in golden tones, the "mein schwan" leading up to operas climax all so well done has you spellbound.....

I would normally prefer Grummer as Elsa but in 1964 the voice is beginning to show wear, Anja Silja has a lighter more youthful tone that works well and provides great contrast to Ortrud. Too bad Elsa is such a weak passive character easily fooled that just seems destined to mess up a good thing

For the two villians of Ortrud and Telramund I prefer the 1962 pair of Astrid Varnay and Ramon Vinay (as baritone) as more dramatic and exciting vs Ludwig and DFD, Varnay especially defiant, crafty then venomous. The natural greater tension of live performance only adds to the thrill as these two sinister characters meet their match at the hands of Lohengrin


----------



## Itullian

^Wow, what a fantastic review DA.
I've always gone back and forth between those two as well.
I'll definitely be taking another listen
Thank you :tiphat:


----------



## DarkAngel

The reason I had to get the two Jess Thomas recordings out was that the 1959 Sandor Konya Lohengrin just received was sounding very good......had to compare it to some references


----------



## Itullian

I have so many Lohengrins I'd need a week to compare them :lol:


I'll definitely give those 2 a listen again though


----------



## Barbebleu

I always feel that Lohengrin doesn't get the appreciation it deserves even among Wagner fans. I personally love it, and I agree with DA that Jess Thomas is a fantastic Lohengrin but Konya is very good too. Both of them are light years ahead of anyone in the modern era.


----------



## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> I always feel that Lohengrin doesn't get the appreciation it deserves even among Wagner fans. I personally love it, and I agree with DA that *Jess Thomas is a fantastic Lohengrin *but Konya is very good too. Both of them are light years ahead of anyone in the modern era.


Thomas had a very good run at Bayreuth in 1962 with two great Wagner recordings


----------



## Itullian

Barbebleu said:


> *I always feel that Lohengrin doesn't get the appreciation it deserves even among Wagner fans. I personally love it,* and I agree with DA that Jess Thomas is a fantastic Lohengrin but Konya is very good too. Both of them are light years ahead of anyone in the modern era.


Not by me. I LOVE it.
And I'm sure DA does too. 

Giving this one a spin right now.









What a corny cover :lol:


----------



## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> *Jess Thomas Lohengrin 1964 studio vs 1962 live*
> 
> I had previously thought the 1964 studio Kempe was my favorite version, but after some comparisons tonight (and listening to other Lohengrins) I now favor the live 1962 Sawallisch as the best. The live 1962 sound is extremely good in stereo with even better 3D stage presentation than the 1964 studio recording, and Sawallisch is just masterful in catching the atmospherics, nice forward momentum and has the best musical climax of any version......
> 
> Jess Thomas is both more supple and flexible of tone as well as more commanding and heroic in 1962 live, the final tale of Lohengrins identity as the grail knight of Monsalvat and son of Parsifal has never been better told for me, Thomas effortlessly soars above the orchestra and then caresses you in golden tones, the "mein schwan" leading up to operas climax all so well done has you spellbound.....
> 
> I would normally prefer Grummer as Elsa but in 1964 the voice is beginning to show wear, Anja Silja has a lighter more youthful tone that works well and provides great contrast to Ortrud. Too bad Elsa is such a weak passive character easily fooled that just seems destined to mess up a good thing
> 
> For the two villians of Ortrud and Telramund I prefer the 1962 pair of Astrid Varnay and Ramon Vinay (as baritone) as more dramatic and exciting vs Ludwig and DFD, Varnay especially defiant, crafty then venomous. The natural greater tension of live performance only adds to the thrill as these two sinister characters meet their match at the hands of Lohengrin


Thanks for this review. I hope to hear this. I've never been too fond of Silja's timbre as compared to Grummer's, or Varnay's (especially as late as 1962) as compared to Ludwig's, but can see how the tension of a live performance could make up for that.


----------



## Woodduck

Figleaf said:


> Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts on the Bodanzky Parsifal. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought the flower maidens sounded awful. I don't pick up on the rushed tempi, but I thought they sounded like a bunch of shrieking harpies- I'm such a Wagner newbie that I don't know whether that is how they were always intended to sound. I hope not. Regarding Flagstad's coolness, I've never found her an interesting singer in spite of a pleasant voice, and I'm afraid my attention began to wane once the ladies began to sing, though I think I made it to the end. It was my first Parsifal, and I don't know if there would be a second. Too much Kundry and flower maidens for me. It usually is the women, especially the sopranos, that put me off Wagner. Think of the famous Ride of the Valkyries/ ho jo to thing, with all that shrieking and cackling- my ears can't take it! On the positive side, the male cast were all excellent, including List- past his prime or otherwise!


This is, as I remarked, not a _Parsifal_ for those who don't know the opera. You'd be rash to think you've experienced what the work has to offer on the basis of this. Get the Knappertsbusch 1962 Bayreuth recording, and discover how sweetly seductive those "shrieking harpies" can be, with Kna's perfect tempi giving them room to breathe and the pure tones of Gundula Janowitz floating on the air like the scent of roses.


----------



## Itullian

Well, this new Lohengrin is passing a lot of tests.
Shock is proving to be an excellent Lohengrin. Power as well as beauty.
Frick is Frick. Metternick, while not quite the expressiveness of DFD is very good.
And Cunitz a sensitive Elsa.
Good sensible conducting by Schuchter and good mono sound, not quite Knap '57, but good.
That's our standard, right DA? 
And I love the organ at the end of Act 2. 

Metternick and Klose are great as Telramund and Ortrud as well.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Well, this new Lohengrin is passing a lot of tests.
> Shock is proving to be an excellent Lohengrin. Power as well as beauty.
> Frick is Frick. Metternick, while not quite the expressiveness of DFD is very good.
> And Cunitz a sensitive Elsa.
> *Good sensible conducting by Schuchter and good mono sound, not quite Knap '57, but good*.
> *That's our standard, right DA?*
> And I love the organ at the end of Act 2.


I have many 1950 Wagner mono recordings but none have better sound quality the the 1957 Knappy Bayreuth Ring on Walhall label, boutique labels like Pristine XR could make it even better......

I didn't realize there were this many 1950s Wagner recordings with Rudolf Schock, people are skeptical because of his movie and operetta background, but for certain Wagner roles he does sound very good


----------



## DarkAngel

DarkAngel said:


> The reason I had to get the two Jess Thomas recordings out was that the 1959 Sandor Konya Lohengrin just received was sounding very good......had to compare it to some references




*Since we are talking Lohengrin a couple comments on the very popular 1985 Solti recording*

Sound quality is spectacular, near demonstration class modern stereo, fills your entire room with rich spacious sound

Domingo does better than you might expect as Lohengrin but I would rank him below Thomas, Konya.....I do not really hear my beloved hero of Monsalvat with Domingo (I hear Domingo)

Jessye Norman mature sound would not be my top pick for Elsa, Randova better as Ortrud but this act 2 pair is done better with other singers from the past.....

*One thing that bothers me*
During Lohengrins final narration telling his story of grail knights things are going along fine, then one of the highlights of entire opera "mein lieber schwan" someone decided to add sound effect making Lohengrin sound 100 feet away off in the distance for the first several lines, then suddenly he is back in front of you.........


----------



## The Conte

Is anybody here familiar with the de los Angeles Tannhaeuser from Bayreuth? It has an amazing cast on paper and supposedly two recordings of it exist:

1) On Myto:








2) On Orfeo:








These are not two issues of the same recording, but two different performances from the same run. The Myto has been out for a while and is the opening night. The Orfeo is a later performance in the run, and since the singers weren't at their best the first night is reported to be the better performance. I haven't heard either, but have been thinking about investing in one of these for a while. Do you have more information? And which performance/issue is the one to go for?

Thanks,
N.


----------



## Barbebleu

The Conte said:


> Is anybody here familiar with the de los Angeles Tannhaeuser from Bayreuth? It has an amazing cast on paper and supposedly two recordings of it exist:
> 
> 1) On Myto:
> View attachment 70475
> 
> 
> 2) On Orfeo:
> View attachment 70476
> 
> 
> These are not two issues of the same recording, but two different performances from the same run. The Myto has been out for a while and is the opening night. The Orfeo is a later performance in the run, and since the singers weren't at their best the first night is reported to be the better performance. I haven't heard either, but have been thinking about investing in one of these for a while. Do you have more information? And which performance/issue is the one to go for?
> 
> Thanks,
> N.


Thanks for this information. I think I have the MYTO one but I'm now not sure. I got it from a different source. The singing sounds pretty good but I will need to try and lay my hands on the Orfeo to make sure.


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> *Since we are talking Lohengrin a couple comments on the very popular 1985 Solti recording*
> 
> Sound quality is spectacular, near demonstration class modern stereo, fills your entire room with rich spacious sound
> 
> Domingo does better than you might expect as Lohengrin but I would rank him below Thomas, Konya.....I do not really hear my beloved hero of Monsalvat with Domingo (I hear Domingo)
> 
> Jessye Norman mature sound would not be my top pick for Elsa, Randova better as Ortrud but this act 2 pair is done better with other singers from the past.....
> 
> *A major production blunder must be pointed out.....*
> During Lohengrins final narration telling his story of grail knights things are going along fine, then one of the highlights of entire opera "mein lieber schwan" some fool decided to add sound effect making Lohengrin sound 100 feet away off in the distance for the first several lines, then suddenly he is back in front of you, you gotta be kidding me!
> 
> I have not heard this "effect" in other recordings thank goodness......


I never took notice of that before DA.
It is pretty stupid!!!
And Decca too.
I really like this recording too.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> I never took notice of that before DA.
> It is pretty stupid!!!
> And Decca too.
> I really like this recording too.


I think they are trying to simulate a live setting where Lohengrin would physically move on stage, fading voice out and then back in again, this "sound effect" not needed for studio recording

I listened to a couple more "live Lohengrins" and you can hear this effect to a much smaller degree as Lohengrin is actually moving on stage.......

Check it out very easy to hear on Solti Lohengrin.......


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> I think they are trying to simulate a live setting where Lohengrin would physically move on stage, fading voice out and then back in again, this "sound effect" not needed for studio recording
> 
> I listened to a couple more "live Lohengrins" and you can hear this effect to a much smaller degree as Lohengrin is actually moving on stage.......
> 
> Check it out very easy to hear on Solti Lohengrin.......


Yes, I just listened to it.
Spectacular recording though.


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> I think they are trying to simulate a live setting where Lohengrin would physically move on stage, fading voice out and then back in again, this "sound effect" not needed for studio recording
> 
> I listened to a couple more "live Lohengrins" and you can hear this effect to a much smaller degree as Lohengrin is actually moving on stage.......
> 
> Check it out very easy to hear on Solti Lohengrin.......


Now I'll be checking all my Lohengrins for that. :lol:

On a side point.......
Do you think Elsa should have lived?


----------



## Bill H.

Itullian said:


> Now I'll be checking all my Lohengrins for that. :lol:
> 
> On a side point.......
> Do you think Elsa should have lived?


Heh, with the exception of Eva (or in a minor sense Gutrune), it wouldn't be a Wagner opera if the womenfolk survived
All these women have a tendency to Drop Dead at the end it seems, though Brünnhilde does take an active role in her own demise.


----------



## DarkAngel

Bill H. said:


> Heh, with the exception of Eva (or in a minor sense Gutrune), it wouldn't be a Wagner opera if the womenfolk survived
> All these women have a tendency to Drop Dead at the end it seems, though Brünnhilde does take an active role in her own demise.


The sudden unceremonious deaths of Kundry and Elsa make one wonder if Wagner has some underlying issues with women, I'm sure Duck will set us straight on this issue.....why not let them live?

At least Isolde gets to experience the rapture of "cosmic love" before taking her leave in grand style


----------



## The Conte

DarkAngel said:


> *Since we are talking Lohengrin a couple comments on the very popular 1985 Solti recording*
> 
> Sound quality is spectacular, near demonstration class modern stereo, fills your entire room with rich spacious sound
> 
> Domingo does better than you might expect as Lohengrin but I would rank him below Thomas, Konya.....I do not really hear my beloved hero of Monsalvat with Domingo (I hear Domingo)
> 
> Jessye Norman mature sound would not be my top pick for Elsa, Randova better as Ortrud but this act 2 pair is done better with other singers from the past.....
> 
> *One thing that bothers me*
> During Lohengrins final narration telling his story of grail knights things are going along fine, then one of the highlights of entire opera "mein lieber schwan" someone decided to add sound effect making Lohengrin sound 100 feet away off in the distance for the first several lines, then suddenly he is back in front of you.........


Perhaps they thought it would be good if it sounded as though Lohengrin were "in fernem Land".



N.


----------



## DarkAngel

The Conte said:


> Is anybody here familiar with the de los Angeles Tannhaeuser from Bayreuth? It has an amazing cast on paper and supposedly two recordings of it exist:
> 
> 1) On Myto:
> View attachment 70475
> 
> 
> 2) On Orfeo:
> View attachment 70476
> 
> 
> These are not two issues of the same recording, but two different performances from the same run. The Myto has been out for a while and is the opening night. The Orfeo is a later performance in the run, and since the singers weren't at their best the first night is reported to be the better performance. I haven't heard either, but have been thinking about investing in one of these for a while. Do you have more information? And which performance/issue is the one to go for?
> 
> Thanks,
> N.


I am big fan of Sawallisch Bayreuth work during this time period, Tannhauser great example. I have the Myto with Grace Bumbry the famous black venus very good prices now, you will pay 3-4x more for the Orfeo label.....one of my favorite Tannhausers with very good sound

Another great Sawallisch with Silja and Bumbry very cheap below, excellent.....


----------



## Marschallin Blair

DarkAngel said:


> I am big fan of Sawallisch Bayreuth work during this time period, Tannhauser great example. I have the Myto with Grace Bumbry the famous black venus very good prices now, you will pay 3-4x more for the Orfeo label.....one of my favorite Tannhausers with very good sound
> 
> Another great Sawallisch with Silja and Bumbry very cheap below, excellent.....


I hope Bumbry's Venus is better than her Princess Eboli- which is disasterous. :angel:


----------



## DarkAngel

Marschallin Blair said:


> I hope Bumbry's Venus is better than her Princess Eboli- which is disasterous. :angel:


wwwwhhhhaaaaatttttt........

Is MB really serious or just being mischevious, I really love Bumbry as Princess Eboli in famous 1966 Solti Don Carlo, brilliant performance



Seriously though to be invited to sing at Bayreuth and break the color barrier requires an exceptional singer, Bumbry lives up to those expectations in these Tannhausers......


----------



## Clayton

The Conte said:


> Is anybody here familiar with the de los Angeles Tannhaeuser from Bayreuth? It has an amazing cast on paper and supposedly two recordings of it exist:
> 
> 1) On Myto:
> View attachment 70475
> 
> 
> 2) On Orfeo:
> View attachment 70476
> 
> 
> These are not two issues of the same recording, but two different performances from the same run. The Myto has been out for a while and is the opening night. The Orfeo is a later performance in the run, and since the singers weren't at their best the first night is reported to be the better performance. I haven't heard either, but have been thinking about investing in one of these for a while. Do you have more information? And which performance/issue is the one to go for?
> 
> Thanks,
> N.


I have the Orfeo recording which I believe was resurrected from a radio broadcast, as you say from a performance later than the opening night. I don't have the recording of the opening night (bayreuth recording) but this one is very good sound and yes , is an excellent interpretation with an amazing cast and I recommend it


----------



## DarkAngel

DarkAngel said:


> *One thing that bothers me*
> During Lohengrins final narration telling his story of grail knights things are going along fine, then one of the highlights of entire opera "mein lieber schwan" someone decided to add sound effect making Lohengrin sound 100 feet away off in the distance for the first several lines, then suddenly he is back in front of you.........












*Even more annoying.......*
1991 Abbado recording not only do they do the distant fade out to far backstage but also to extreme right channel making sound like a mono sound section coming from rear right corner of stage, this just should not be allowed


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> *Even more annoying.......*
> 1991 Abbado recording not only do they do the distant fade out to far backstage but also to extreme right channel making sound like a mono sound section coming from rear right corner of stage, this just should not be allowed


Oh no, another one I have to check out.


----------



## DarkAngel

*1953 Keilberth Bayreuth Ring.............*

Up until now there has been no cost effective way to get the 53 Keilberth but Andromeda label will release this new boxset 7/31/2015 at Amazon USA for $49 prime........

Main cast difference with 1955 Ring is that Martha Modl is Brunhilde 1953 and Varnay 1955......


----------



## gardibolt

Many people scream with outrage at such a Frankensteinian thing, but Richard Caniell's Dream Ring stitched together (very nearly seamlessly, I may add) from a dozen or so classic performances is a marvel of both his technical proficiency and the dream cast that he has assembled. Wonderful stuff if you like that kind of thing (and I do).

The HMV Potted Ring from Pristine is a hoot too.


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> *1953 Keilberth Bayreuth Ring.............*
> 
> Up until now there has been no cost effective way to get the 53 Keilberth but Andromeda label will release this new boxset 7/31/2015 at Amazon USA for $49 prime........
> 
> Main cast difference with 1955 Ring is that Martha Modl is Brunhilde 1953......


WOW, DA. You beat me to that one!!:tiphat:
That's great news. Supposed to be a great one.


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> Many people scream with outrage at such a Frankensteinian thing, but *Richard Caniell's Dream Ring *stitched together (very nearly seamlessly, I may add) from a dozen or so classic performances is a marvel of both his technical proficiency and the dream cast that he has assembled. Wonderful stuff if you like that kind of thing (and I do).
> 
> The HMV Potted Ring from Pristine is a hoot too.


I've seen that composite Ring but it sells for an insane price at Amazon, I normally don't go back beyond 1950 so I am not a target customer........whatever you do don't mention those at Callas thread because RES will have a heart attack, that is blasphemy! Vandalism of great art.......:lol:


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> I've seen that composite Ring but it sells for an insane price at Amazon,* I normally don't go back beyond 1950 *so I am not a target customer........whatever you do don't mention those at Callas thread because RES will have a heart attack, that is blasphemy! Vandalism of great art.......:lol:


Me either DA.
I would like to get my hands on the complete Stiedry Ring though 










OOPS, It's 51.


----------



## The Conte

Itullian said:


> WOW, DA. You beat me to that one!!:tiphat:
> That's great news. Supposed to be a great one.


It is a great one. In fact it's my favourite recording of the Ring. As for compilations of a "Dream Ring" why bother when the 53 Keilberth has it all?

N.


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> Me either DA.
> I would like to get my hands on the complete Stiedry Ring though
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OOPS, It's 51. [/QUOTE
> 
> I see this is on Amazon U.K. for £305 for the CDs. Or £39.99 for the download! Forget that nonsense. The link goes to a download for the Barenboim Ring from 1991. Typical Amazon incompetence.


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> *1953 Keilberth Bayreuth Ring.............*
> 
> Up until now there has been no cost effective way to get the 53 Keilberth but Andromeda label will release this new boxset 7/31/2015 at Amazon USA for $49 prime........
> 
> Main cast difference with 1955 Ring is that Martha Modl is Brunhilde 1953 and Varnay 1955......


This is a wonderful ring cycle and, dare I say it, marginally better than '55. If you want to compare Brunnhildes for that year Kraus had Varnay for his cycle.


----------



## Barbebleu

I've just finished listening to Siegfried from Bayreuth '56. Not bad and I have to say Ilse Hollweg is the best Woodbird I have heard in a long time.


----------



## gardibolt

I added the 52 Keilberth to my Myto order from norpete to go along with all the Callas, based on the glowing recommendations here. We'll see---I'm generally pretty skeptical of Bayreuth performances since that place is definitely not set up for proper recording. A lot of stuff that I've heard come out of there is well nigh unlistenable though there have been some exceptions like the Sawallisch Tannhauser. At the sale price it seemed like a decent risk.


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> *I added the 52 Keilberth to my Myto order from norpete to go along with all the Callas*, based on the glowing recommendations here. We'll see---I'm generally pretty skeptical of Bayreuth performances since that place is definitely not set up for proper recording. A lot of stuff that I've heard come out of there is well nigh unlistenable though there have been some exceptions like the Sawallisch Tannhauser. At the sale price it seemed like a decent risk.


I got 52 Keilberth Myto there also recently and Itullian here also, sound is very good you will not be let down, the performances are everything you expect from Varnay, Hotter etc at their peak.....

The very best mono sound from Bayreuth Ring in the 1950s for me is 1957 Knap on Walhall Eternity label, a must buy......


----------



## Itullian

gardibolt said:


> I added the 52 Keilberth to my Myto order from norpete to go along with all the Callas, based on the glowing recommendations here. We'll see---I'm generally pretty skeptical of Bayreuth performances since that place is definitely not set up for proper recording. A lot of stuff that I've heard come out of there is well nigh unlistenable though there have been some exceptions like the Sawallisch Tannhauser. At the sale price it seemed like a decent risk.


I agree with DA. Sound of '52 Keilberth is very good.

What have you gotten from Bayreuth that is unlistenable?
I've had good luck from there.


----------



## Bill H.

One of the issues with many of the 50s Bayreuth recordings that were recorded by the Bavarian Radio is the overbalancing of the voices vs. the orchestra. I haven't heard some of the later ones that have been so highly praised here, but my favorite of them (the Krauss) suffers from this, and the '56 Knappertsbusch cycle even moreso. As one wag put it, the Bayreuth orchestra sounds like they were playing from down at the bottom of the Hill, which I can attest to in the Music and Arts release of that cycle...
Of course, this wasn't an issue with the '55 Keilberth Ring, or any of the others that were taped by the Decca team instead. Can those who have heard the other cycles comment?


----------



## Woodduck

Bill H. said:


> One of the issues with many of the 50s Bayreuth recordings that were recorded by the Bavarian Radio is the overbalancing of the voices vs. the orchestra. I haven't heard some of the later ones that have been so highly praised here, but my favorite of them (the Krauss) suffers from this, and the '56 Knappertsbusch cycle even moreso. As one wag put it, the Bayreuth orchestra sounds like they were playing from down at the bottom of the Hill, which I can attest to in the Music and Arts release of that cycle...
> Of course, this wasn't an issue with the '55 Keilberth Ring, or any of the others that were taped by the Decca team instead. Can those who have heard the other cycles comment?


I have the 1951 Knappertsbusch _Gotterdammerung_, and I too find the voices are too prominent. Obviously the covered pit was a problem they hadn't solved. It's a strong performance, though. Some day when my energy returns (I just moved into a new place in a new town, more or less without help - a little hard on this 65-year-old body) I'll give it a proper review.


----------



## DarkAngel

Bill H. said:


> One of the issues with many of the 50s Bayreuth recordings that were recorded by the Bavarian Radio is the overbalancing of the voices vs. the orchestra. I haven't heard some of the later ones that have been so highly praised here, but my favorite of them (the Krauss) suffers from this, and the '56 Knappertsbusch cycle even moreso. As one wag put it, the Bayreuth orchestra sounds like they were playing from down at the bottom of the Hill, which I can attest to in the Music and Arts release of that cycle...
> Of course, this wasn't an issue with the '55 Keilberth Ring, or any of the others that were taped by the Decca team instead. Can those who have heard the other cycles comment?


I have been listening almost exclusively to 1950s Bayreuth Wagner the last few weeks and became very aclimated to that voice vs orchestra balance........

Then I swithced some newer 1980s Solti recordings to compare and the orchestra is definitely much bigger and more prominent compared to voice, almost too big when you get used to that Bayreuth house sound, the 1995 Solti Meistersinger really seemed to be massive orchestrally

As Duck said part of that balance is just the layout of Bayreuth with deep orchestra pit tends to emphasize voice and stage action


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> I have been listening almost exclusively to 1950s Bayreuth Wagner the last few weeks and became very aclimated to that voice vs orchestra balance........
> 
> Then I swithced some newer 1980s Solti recordings to compare and the orchestra is definitely much bigger and more prominent compared to voice, almost too big when you get used to that Bayreuth house sound,* the 1995 Solti Meistersinger really seemed to be massive orchestrally *
> As Duck said part of that balance is just the layout of Bayreuth with deep orchestra pit tends to emphasize voice and stage action


............................


----------



## DavidA

DarkAngel said:


> I have been listening almost exclusively to 1950s Bayreuth Wagner the last few weeks and became very aclimated to that voice vs orchestra balance........
> 
> Then I swithced some newer 1980s Solti recordings to compare and the orchestra is definitely much bigger and more prominent compared to voice, almost too big when you get used to that Bayreuth house sound, the 1995 Solti Meistersinger really seemed to be massive orchestrally
> 
> As Duck said part of that balance is just the layout of Bayreuth with deep orchestra pit tends to emphasize voice and stage action


Of course Wagner designed it like that for a live audience not a recording. Must say the recordings I have heard from Bayrueth there hasn't been enough orchestra and as I consider the chief interest of Wagner mainly in the orchestra then it's a loss.


----------



## Itullian

^I love my Bayreuth recordings.


----------



## Barbebleu

For anyone who's interested the Knappertsbusch Ring from 1957 on Walhall is a composite cycle. Rheingold 14th August, Walkure 15th August and Siegfried 16th August. Götterdämmerung is from the earlier cycle on 31st July. Aldenhoff sang Siegfried on the 16th and 18th August and Windgassen sang it in July.


----------



## Barbebleu

I have been listening to the '56 Bayreuth Ring and although the balance does favour the voices I don't find it too bad. At least they don't have the ludicrously wide dynamics that used to plague recordings of the eighties and nineties, in particular Deutsche Grammophon, which had you reaching for the volume control every two minutes with diminuendos that were near silent and crescendos that blew your ears off!


----------



## Barbebleu

Again for anyone who cares, the '56 Bayreuth Ring by Kna on Walhall is all from the same cycle, 13, 14, 15 and 17 August and the '58 Ring by Kna, again on Walhall is from the same cycle, 27, 28, 30 July and 1st August.


----------



## Itullian

Barbebleu said:


> Again for anyone who cares,* the '56 Bayreuth Ring by Kna on Walhall i*s all from the same cycle, 13, 14, 15 and 17 August and the '58 Ring by Kna, again on Walhall is from the same cycle, 27, 28, 30 July and 1st August.


You mean Music and Arts or Orfeo?


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> I have been listening almost exclusively to 1950s Bayreuth Wagner the last few weeks and became very aclimated to that voice vs orchestra balance........
> 
> Then I swithced some newer 1980s Solti recordings to compare and the orchestra is definitely much bigger and more prominent compared to voice, almost too big when you get used to that Bayreuth house sound, the 1995 Solti Meistersinger really seemed to be massive orchestrally
> 
> As Duck said part of that balance is just the layout of Bayreuth with deep orchestra pit tends to emphasize voice and stage action


Such an awesome photo.


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> You mean Music and Arts or Orfeo?


It's this series that is on Amazon.co.uk

View attachment 70703


----------



## Itullian

Barbebleu said:


> It's this series that is on Amazon.co.uk
> 
> View attachment 70703


That's '58....................


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> That's '58....................


And this one from 1957

View attachment 70704


It shouldn't really matter which version you have. In the 1958 Rheingold Theo Adam only sang Fasolt on the 27th July. If your copy of Rheingold has Theo Adam then that's the date. And if you have Astrid Varnay as Brunnhilde then she only sang it on 28, 30 July and 1st August. Back then there were only two cycles per season and Ludwig Weber sang Fasolt and Martha Modl sang Brunnhilde in the second cycle. I hope this is helpful.


----------



## DarkAngel

DarkAngel said:


> *1953 Keilberth Bayreuth Ring.............*
> 
> Up until now there has been *no cost effective way to get the 53 Keilberth *but Andromeda label will release this new boxset 7/31/2015 at Amazon USA for $49 prime........
> 
> Main cast difference with 1955 Ring is that Martha Modl is Brunhilde 1953 and Varnay 1955......


The reason we are excited to have 1953 Keilberth Ring for $49 prime is that the other alternative was to pay $235-450 for the old used Andromeda set on Amazon......insanity


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> The reason we are excited to have 1953 Keilberth Ring for $49 prime is that the other alternative was to pay $235-450 for the old used Andromeda set......


You can say that again DA. I'd definitely do without at that price.
Surprised ZYX didn't release it.


----------



## Itullian

Listened to this 52 Siegfried today.
I have no problem with the sound at all.
In fact, for the time, I think it's great.


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> Listened to this 52 Siegfried today.
> I have no problem with the sound at all.
> In fact, for the time, I think it's great.


All the fifties recordings I have sound very good, even the mono stuff. Good mono can give stereo a run for its money.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Listened to this 52 Siegfried today.
> I have no problem with the sound at all.
> In fact, for the time, I think it's great.


Very good sound for me also, I have no hesitation buying 1950s Wagner recorded at Bayreuth, they had the best recording teams and lots of time to refine their techniques......as long as we are using best original master available and not some 3rd generation bootleg source

Did I mention I have 1/2 of the Pristine XR 1953 Krauss Ring on its way to me (Walkure, Gotterdammerung), as well as some other Wagner goodies from Andrew Rose.....


----------



## Itullian

No, you didn't mention that. 
You continually haunt me with those Pristine issues DA 

May I ask what other goodies?


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> No, you didn't mention that.
> You continually haunt me with those Pristine issues DA
> 
> *May I ask what other goodies*?


Two more Wagner items:

 1956 Kempe Meistersinger








1953 Krauss Parsifal

(available in cheaper Andromeda release, Modl's Kundry very impressive)


----------



## Itullian

WOOOOOOOOOW
I'm so jealous. 

No really, that's wonderful, enjoy


----------



## DarkAngel

The release of the 1953 Keilberth Ring CD set soon will allow us to assemble (for reasonable price) two 1950s Ring CD set trilogies, an early decade and late decade trilogy.......

*Keilberth - 52 Myto, 53 Pan Classics (new) 55 Testament (stereo)

Knap - 56 Music and Arts, 57 Walhall Eternity, 58 Walhall Eternity*

I guess if you can only have one Ring the stereo 55 Keilberth is the place to start, but it will only make you want the others that much more especially at these low prices

For me after the 1968 Karajan Ring (last great Ring?) the really great golden age wagner singers were never replaced by singers of equal stature in later rings.....Jonas Kaufmann a rare exception


----------



## Itullian

^So true DA. And to top them off the awesome Kempe '60 cycle.
How lucky we are that these wonderful testaments were recorded!!

Even the Karajan Ring was a little thin voice wise in places.

But we have the great echoes from the past now.

PS Never heard of Pan Classics, have you?
I hope they use good sources


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> ^So true DA. And to top them off the awesome Kempe '60 cycle.
> How lucky we are that these wonderful testaments were recorded!!
> 
> Even the Karajan Ring was a little thin voice wise in places.
> 
> But we have the great echoes from the past now.
> 
> *PS Never heard of Pan Classics, have you?*
> I hope they use good sources


No but everyone is getting purchased and consolidated, seems to work out good for us buyers........

































Hope everyone has been buying these 10CD sets of you favorite Wagner singers male and female, these do not have complete operas but extended segments from famous roles and performances, there are multiple selections from famous signature roles, some of these segments are very hard or very expensive to get any other way......cost $15 Amazon USA prime

You can find out about great recordings that were unknown to you before, these often generate additional purchases, buyer beware


----------



## Itullian

^I haven't yet. I'm still catching up on the live recordings!
Hopefully getting the 58 Knap this month.
And now the new Solti remaster is coming out.
An embarrassment of riches!


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> Very good sound for me also, I have no hesitation buying 1950s Wagner recorded at Bayreuth, they had the best recording teams and lots of time to refine their techniques......as long as we are using best original master available and not some 3rd generation bootleg source
> 
> Did I mention I have 1/2 of the Pristine XR 1953 Krauss Ring on its way to me (Walkure, Gotterdammerung), as well as some other Wagner goodies from Andrew Rose.....


The Krauss '53 is very good. Varnay is sooo good as Brunnhilde. They were very lucky in Bayreuth in the fifties. From '53 to '60 you had Modl and Varnay or Varnay and Modl, apart from '57. The more I listen to Astrid Varnay the more I have come to love her as Brunnhilde. Everyone raves about Nilsson and while I admire her vocal skills and accurate singing, I feel more heart from Varnay. But that's just my opinion.


----------



## Barbebleu

T


DarkAngel said:


> Two more Wagner items:
> 
> 1956 Kempe Meistersinger
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1953 Krauss Parsifal
> 
> (available in cheaper Andromeda release, Modl's Kundry very impressive)


The Krauss Parsifal is excellent as is the Kempe Meistersinger which to many is the best Meistersinger out there, even better than Kubelik. But there are so many good versions so it's a judgement call.


----------



## The Conte

I am not keen on Nilsson as Brunnhilde, I love her Turandot and her Strauss, though. My favourite Ring is the '53 Keilberth, even better than his '55 recording. Whilst I agree that the fifties seems a golden age for Wagner singers from the recordings I've heard, my second favourite Ring is the Barenboim, along with Fuertwaengler, Krauss (and the already mentioned Keilberth) the conducting on this set is wonderful. In addition John Tomlinson may be my preferred Wotan.

N.


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> The release of the 1953 Keilberth Ring CD set soon will allow us to assemble (for reasonable price) two 1950s Ring CD set trilogies, an early decade and late decade trilogy.......
> 
> *Keilberth - 52 Myto, 53 Pan Classics (new) 55 Testament (stereo)
> 
> Knap - 56 Music and Arts, 57 Walhall Eternity, 58 Walhall Eternity*
> 
> I guess if you can only have one Ring the stereo 55 Keilberth is the place to start, but it will only make you want the others that much more especially at these low prices
> 
> For me after the 1968 Karajan Ring (last great Ring?) the really great golden age wagner singers were never replaced by singers of equal stature in later rings.....Jonas Kaufmann a rare exception


Sadly I have to totally agree. The standard of Wagner singing today is "wehwalt" as Siegmund might say! There are a few exceptions - Kaufmann, Pape, Stemme. Terfel's voice is shot now and I'm struggling to think of a half decent dramatic soprano other than Stemme. Others may disagree and why not, but that's how I feel. Michael Volle wasn't too bad as Sachs in the Met Meistersinger but I'm not sure he can tackle the heavier roles yet.


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> ^I haven't yet. I'm still catching up on the live recordings!
> Hopefully getting the 58 Knap this month.
> And now the new Solti remaster is coming out.
> An embarrassment of riches!


How many Kna rings is that now, Itullian?


----------



## Itullian

Barbebleu said:


> How many Kna rings is that now, Itullian?


Only 2, 56 and 57.


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> Only 2, 56 and 57.


What did you think of the '56 one. I thought it was pretty good. Although I thought that Windgassen was all over the place in Act 1 of Walkure but he was fantastic in Siegfried and Götterdämmerung. Uhde was a brilliant Gunther and I thought that Götterdämmerung was outstanding, the prologue, Hagen's watch and all of Act 3 in particular. Paul Kuen wasn't in his best voice but he was a great actor. Other than the minor criticisms this is a fine ring.


----------



## Itullian

^I love it. I loved the cast and the sound on that one.
And I thought the cast was wonderful.


----------



## kineno

Current dramatic soprano who is WAY more than half-decent: Christine Goerke.


----------



## Barbebleu

kineno said:


> Current dramatic soprano who is WAY more than half-decent: Christine Goerke.


I'll listen out for her then.


----------



## DavidA

Itullian said:


> Only 2, 56 and 57.


A glutton for punishment! :lol:


----------



## Itullian

DavidA said:


> A glutton for punishment! :lol:


For greatness my friend.

Soon to be 3


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> For greatness my friend.
> 
> Soon to be 3


It would have been nice if they had recorded all of Kna's '51 Ring. Then we could all have 4!!


----------



## DarkAngel

*Itullian did you order the re-issue Solti Ring released today.......
*

I pre-ordered these two at Amazon USA $12.99 prime:

















I know what you are thinking, DA you fool that is the same 1952 Bayreuth Tristan you were raving about earlier in this thread.
Yes true but it is so good I will keep the best sounding version and put it in the Walhall CD case because I like the photo of Modl, this is the current one I have


----------



## Itullian

^Haven't ordered it yet DA. Price is unbelievable. Trying to get my bills out first.  Maybe next week.
Solti and or Knap 58.

Be sure that Walhall Tristan has Act 1 complete on Disc 1.
That's important to me anyway.


----------



## gardibolt

I have I think the '87 edition of Solti; been thinking of going for the Blu-ray. People seem to think mostly that it's a solid upgrade.


----------



## Bill H.

Barbebleu said:


> What did you think of the '56 one. I thought it was pretty good. Although I thought that Windgassen was all over the place in Act 1 of Walkure but he was fantastic in Siegfried and Götterdämmerung. Uhde was a brilliant Gunther and I thought that Götterdämmerung was outstanding, the prologue, Hagen's watch and all of Act 3 in particular. Paul Kuen wasn't in his best voice but he was a great actor. Other than the minor criticisms this is a fine ring.


IIRC the '56 Walküre was the subject of a great story in Varnay's memoirs. I'll go back and look at it, but there was a performance where Windgassen was literally a last minute walk-on substitute and had to sing Siegmund without any warmup. 
I'll post more when I find my book.


----------



## DavidA

DarkAngel said:


> *Itullian did you order the re-issue Solti Ring released today.......
> *
> 
> I pre-ordered these two at Amazon USA $12.99 prime:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know what you are thinking, DA you fool that is the same 1952 Bayreuth Tristan you were raving about earlier in this thread.
> Yes true but it is so good I will keep the best sounding version and put it in the Walhall CD case because I like the photo of Modl, this is the current one I have


This Karajan recording is perhaps the greatest performance ever of Tristan on record. It is absolutely white hot though for repeated listenng I prefer his later version. At the end Karajan was so exhausted he had to be helped from the rostrum. A great evening caught on the wing.


----------



## Itullian

Just ordered the '58 Walhall Knappy
YAYY :clap:
I always get so excited when I order Wagner.


----------



## Itullian

Gosh DA, A first release! I so am wondering how it is. 
Cast looks great.
Can Vinay challenge Thomas and Konya or Vickers?


----------



## Itullian

Hey DA


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Gosh DA, A first release! I so am wondering how it is.
> Cast looks great.
> Can Vinay challenge Thomas and Konya or Vickers?


Blankenheim not my favorite Klingsor, prefer Hermann Uhde or Gustav Neidlinger, remaining cast solid. On first listen the sound seems brighter than normal, will have to listen more when I have time

*Later with more listening......*

Can Vinay surpass Thomas, Konya, Vickers as Parsifal......not for me in 1957, those others have more variation in vocal color and character rendition, Vinay sounds more like the same voice just softer or louder without as much variation, the voice is fine just not as interesting

The overall sound here is "hot" and a bit rough around the edges, not nearly as good as 57 Knap Ring on same label, not bad just not at the same high level we now expect


----------



## gardibolt

Just got a big box from norpete with my Keilberth '52 set and a bunch of Callas Mytos. Going to keep my busy for a while.


----------



## Itullian

My '58 Knap has shipped. Hope they sent me the right ones. 

Have you had a chance to hear the Walhall Tristan yet DA?


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Have you had a chance to hear the Walhall Tristan yet DA?


Yes the latest walhall Tristan has the good sound like the other version I own, but.......

Walhall is not quite 3 complete acts on three individual CDs since CD 2 has the last track of act 1 as well as act 2, Itullian does not like this........


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> Gosh DA, A first release! I so am wondering how it is.
> Cast looks great.
> Can Vinay challenge Thomas and Konya or Vickers?


It's a very good Parsifal. Vinay is excellent and Modl is pretty good too. Kna is reliable as ever. You can never go far wrong with anything that came out of Bayreuth in the fifties and sixties. I think I now have all the Kna Parsifals at Bayreuth with the exception of 1955 and I wouldn't be without any of them. There is always something new to discover with every interpretation.


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Yes the latest walhall Tristan has the good sound like the other version I own, but.......
> 
> Walhall is not quite 3 complete acts on three individual CDs since CD 2 has the last track of act 1 as well as act 2,* Itullian does not like this........*


I hate that DA! Why on earth do they do that when its not necessary  :scold:


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> I hate that DA! Why on earth do they do that when its not necessary  :scold:


I just noticed that there is an expensive Orfeo set ($37 importcds) of the 52 Karajan Tristan also......


----------



## Itullian

^Act 1 is split on that one too. 

It's ok, I have Bohm, Kleiber and Pappano.


----------



## Itullian

Each act is complete on its own disc on this set, correct?


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Each act is complete on its own disc on this set, correct?


Yes each act has its own CD, I can't really tell any difference in sound between this and latest Walhall, both much better than older releases.......


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Yes each act has its own CD, I can't really tell any difference in sound between this and latest Walhall, both much better than older releases.......


Thanks DA. That's the one then. :tiphat:


----------



## Bill H.

A good way to celebrate, for it was exactly on this day 150 years ago (10 June 1865) that Tristan und Isolde was premiered!


----------



## Itullian

Bill H. said:


> A good way to celebrate, for it was exactly on this day 150 years ago (10 June 1865) that Tristan und Isolde was premiered!


I'll have to listen to it tonight then.


----------



## DarkAngel

I have to buy this used CD set from the opening season of Bayreuth 1951 after WWII, some of these great stars making their Bayreuth debut, yes the 1951 Knappy Gotterdammerung........

Decca Culshaw project long buried in archives like the 1955 Keilberth Ring until legal issues resolved and Testament label takes over















Astrid Varnay is just incredible brunhilde........


----------



## Itullian

I've looked at that many times DA. A great collectors item.
I even listened on utube.

They recorded the whole Ring but decided to release only Gotterdammerung.


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> I have to buy this used CD set from the opening season of Bayreuth 1951 after WWII, some of these great stars making their Bayreuth debut, yes the 1951 Knappy Gotterdammerung........
> 
> Decca Culshaw project long buried in archives like the 1955 Keilberth Ring until legal issues resolved and Testament label takes over
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Astrid Varnay is just incredible brunhilde........


And Modl doubling as Gutrune and third Norn and Schwarzkopf as Woglinde! Those were the days.


----------



## DavidA

Barbebleu said:


> And Modl doubling as Gutrune and third Norn and Schwarzkopf as Woglinde! Those were the days.


Culshaw reckoned it was because of Schwarzkopf in the cast that this recording was not released by Decca. He says that Legge (her husband) was not keen to have her on a rival label.


----------



## Barbebleu

DavidA said:


> Culshaw reckoned it was because of Schwarzkopf in the cast that this recording was not released by Decca. He says that Legge (her husband) was not keen to have her on a rival label.


That doesn't surprise me in the slightest. Legge was a bit of a control freak.


----------



## Woodduck

Barbebleu said:


> And Modl doubling as Gutrune and third Norn and Schwarzkopf as Woglinde! Those were the days.


These Daughters of the Rhine are a gorgeous trio: Schwarzkopf, Hanna Ludwig, and Hertha Topper. Some may recall the last as the fine alto soloist on some of Karl Richter's great old Bach recordings, including his _Magnificat_ and _B-Minor Mass._


----------



## DavidA

Barbebleu said:


> That doesn't surprise me in the slightest. Legge was a bit of a control freak.


As well as being producer for EMI. When Decca were recording Rheingold Legge made the encouraging remark: "Very nice. But of course you won't sell any!"


----------



## Barbebleu

DavidA said:


> As well as being producer for EMI. When Decca were recording Rheingold Legge made the encouraging remark: "Very nice. But of course you won't sell any!"


So much for his judgement. He would be like the guy at Decca who turned down the Beatles because "guitar groups are on the way out!"


----------



## Itullian

Not much new. Still waiting for '58 Knappy to arrive.


----------



## DarkAngel

*I got my shipment from Pristine XR, going through them now.......*

1953 Bayreuth Krauss Ring - Walkure & Gotterdammerung
1953 Bayreuth Krauss - Parsifal
1956 Kempe - Meistersinger (studio recording)










I am extremely impressed with the sound Pristine XR has achieved here especially in Gotterdammerung, easily surpasses any other version including latest Orfeo remaster, voices are cystal clear with weight and tonal body thanks to ambient stereo, even in crowded vocal sections the great sound remains intact, it is such a thrill to hear these great singers revealed in ever greater vocal detail........

Astrid Varnay cannot be praised highly enough here, what a brunhilde performance......

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/June10/wagner_gotterdammerung_PAC042A.htm


----------



## Itullian

Happy listening DA!!


----------



## Itullian

How you liking the Kempe Meister DA?:tiphat:


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> How you liking the Kempe Meister DA?:tiphat:


Still on my CDs to listen to pile, soon..........

Right now listening to another Varnay studio recital CD from 1955 & 56, 4 extended segments from Ring although in mono I can every detail of Astrid's amazing vocals


----------



## Itullian

^Another one for my list :tiphat:


----------



## Itullian

Knappy '58 is here!! These Walhalls are certainly nice. 
So glad we got them before they go up in price, huh DA?

Only the '53 Keilberth to go.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> *Knappy '58 is here!! These Walhalls are certainly nice*.
> So glad we got them before they go up in price, huh DA?
> 
> Only the '53 Keilberth to go.


Amazon has now started to post some professional editorial commentary for the 1958 Bayreuth Knappy Walhall series, it confirms what we have been saying in this forum......



> Following the Walhall release of Wagners Die Walküre, the label closes its legendary 1958 Bayreuth Festival Ring tetralogy publication with the 1st, 3rd and final operas, led by the mid-20th c. Bayreuth pit regular and esteemed Wagnerian conductor Hans Knappertsbusch. *The sound, benefitting from 24bit/96kHz re-mastering technology is great, far better than any other labels previous issue, Walhall also reaping the sound reward from the use of the original broadcast mastertapes*. Featured Wagnerian vocal luminaries include Hotter, Windgassen, Varnay, Konya, Grümmer, et al.


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Amazon has now started to post some professional editorial commentary for the 1958 Bayreuth Knap Walhall series, it confirms what we have been saying......


I can't believe they're so inexpensive.!!!


----------



## Itullian

I noticed the '58 Walkure with Rysanek, Vickers and Varnay sells out often.


----------



## Itullian

Walhall is somehow linked to Archipel?
See bottom of back, left bottom.


----------



## DarkAngel

This is a great great recording, amazing 1951 sound quality that just doesn't seem possible, best singers in freshest voice, Astrid Varnay once again amazing brunhilde, how did I get this far into Wagner collecting and just now obtaining this recording?

This will never leave my collection, an essential historical Wagner recording for sure, do not hesitate to get this.......


----------



## Bill H.

Itullian said:


> Walhall is somehow linked to Archipel?
> See bottom of back, left bottom.


Yup, along with Gebhardt, Myto etc.

http://www.gebhardtmedien.de/seite13.html


----------



## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> This is a great great recording, amazing 1951 sound quality that just doesn't seem possible, best possible singers in freshest voice, Astrid Varnay once again amazing brunhilde, how did I get this far into Wagner collecting and just now obtaining this recording?
> 
> This will never leave my collection, an essential historical Wagner recording for sure, do not hesitate to get this.......


Are you listening, Itullian?


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> This is a great great recording, amazing 1951 sound quality that just doesn't seem possible, best possible singers in freshest voice, Astrid Varnay once again amazing brunhilde, how did I get this far into Wagner collecting and just now obtaining this recording?
> 
> This will never leave my collection, an essential historical Wagner recording for sure, do not hesitate to get this.......


I like the way they put Wagner's face on the right there to look like he's part of the participants.


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> This is a great great recording, amazing 1951 sound quality that just doesn't seem possible, best singers in freshest voice, Astrid Varnay once again amazing brunhilde, how did I get this far into Wagner collecting and just now obtaining this recording?
> 
> This will never leave my collection, an essential historical Wagner recording for sure, do not hesitate to get this.......


My thoughts precisely DA. I have just finished it and am amazed. O.k. the Decca engineers were plainly getting to grips with the Bayreuth acoustic and the balances can be a bit odd but on the plus side I got to hear brass and woodwind parts that are usually subsumed in the mix and it has made me realise even more how masterly an orchestrator Wagner really was. There are all sorts of little delights that illuminate the narrative taking place in the orchestra that the strings sometimes consume. The cast without exception is exemplary and Aldenhoff is a tremendously interesting Siegfried bringing all sorts of nuances to the part as well as some great heldentenor singing. Varnay is wonderful and her voice has so much warmth as well as steel I find now that I am coming to prefer her to Nilsson, something I never thought I would ever think, having grown up on Nilsson's interpretation. Weber and Uhde and Modl are in great voice and Uhde in particular makes Gunther a fine foil for Hagen, which all too seldom happens. Kna has so many fine moments but two that stick in the memory are the transition from the prologue to Brunnhilde's opening line and Siegfried's journey down the Rhine Just remembered Hagen's watch too! In fact I think this is some of the best conducting committed to the recording medium that I have heard. Frankly, if you have any love for Wagner interpretation at it's best you can't not have this in your collection. Oh for it to have been recorded with modern technology. Sorry if I seem a bit OTT but it is _that _good.


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> Knappy '58 is here!! These Walhalls are certainly nice.
> So glad we got them before they go up in price, huh DA?
> 
> Only the '53 Keilberth to go.


Nice. Do you have the '53 Krauss. It is an interesting contrast to the Keilberth and I think just as enjoyable.


----------



## Itullian

Barbebleu said:


> Nice. Do you have the '53 Krauss. It is an interesting contrast to the Keilberth and I think just as enjoyable.


Yes, I do. It's excellent as well.


----------



## Itullian

Started my way through the '58 Knap Ring. Very good sound again with a few odd balances as I listened through Rheingold. Thrilling singing. Cast into the roles.
Knappy pacing well. Last cadence awesome.


----------



## Itullian

Can't wait for this one.
Amazon already has 6 reviews up for it. 
And they're for different sets. :lol:


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Can't wait for this one.
> Amazon already has 6 reviews up for it.
> And they're for different sets. :lol:


I also expect Amazon sellers like importcds to come in with lower price once the set is officially released July 31 as they did on recent Solti Ring


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> I also expect Amazon sellers like importcds to come in with lower price once the set is officially released July 31 as they did on recent Solti Ring


Can you believe Solti is 35 dollars!!!
It almost makes me suspicious :lol:


----------



## Itullian

From a review on Amazon on the 2012 Solti Ring remaster............

For this new release-they have reassembled a new master again based on the 1997 version-and have restored the missing semi-quaver, eliminated some obvious edits, re-balanced yet again -and transferred at 24 Bits. On CD alone the difference is immediately palpable-the bass is firmer and tauter, even more detail is revealed, it is certainly less compressed and sounds as though it could have been recorded last week. Rheingold in particular benefits-the cellos and basses don't sound like revving motorbikes any more, and a slight edgy quality to the upper strings and brass has gone. I have detected none of the edits I could before!


----------



## bigshot

I've only heard the first two Solti remasters, and they were basically the same. The only real difference was tape hiss filtering on the newer one. I prefer the earlier one because it's just a straight transfer off the master tapes with no monkey business.


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> This is a great great recording, amazing 1951 sound quality that just doesn't seem possible, best singers in freshest voice, Astrid Varnay once again amazing brunhilde, how did I get this far into Wagner collecting and just now obtaining this recording?
> 
> This will never leave my collection, an essential historical Wagner recording for sure, do not hesitate to get this.......


For the first time in forty years of listening I did something I have never done before. I listened to the same version of an opera twice in succession. This one. Just to hear all the many delights that I heard on the first pass and to hear new ones on the second. Aldenhoff is just tremendous in Act 3, my admiration for his artistry is immense and Varnay is just beyond fantastic.


----------



## Itullian

Barbebleu said:


> For the first time in forty years of listening I did something I have never done before. I listened to the same version of an opera twice in succession. This one. Just to hear all the many delights that I heard on the first pass and to hear new ones on the second. Aldenhoff is just tremendous in Act 3, my admiration for his artistry is immense and Varnay is just beyond fantastic.


I've become a fan of Aldenhoff as well. And Varnay too. She's the best.


----------



## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> For the first time in forty years of listening I did something I have never done before. I listened to the same version of an opera twice in succession. This one. Just to hear all the many delights that I heard on the first pass and to hear new ones on the second. Aldenhoff is just tremendous in Act 3, my admiration for his artistry is immense and *Varnay is just beyond fantastic*.


Barbie thanks for those comments, these historical performances are priceless documents that fortunately are captured in amazing sound quality for that time.....

*Astrid Varnay* no wonder she sang so many brunhilde parts during that golden era, I just love her vivid characterization and passion......the voice is so perferctly suited for me, she has this dark warm foundation from which these glorious high notes just launch out from able to ride over any orchestral passage, so sensual and rich


----------



## Itullian

^Thanks for the great picture DA :tiphat:


----------



## Barbebleu

Next on the listening list is the Bayreuth '51 Siegfried. Yes, I know I am doing this the wrong way round but I had to hear the Götterdämmerung first because of DA's enthusiasm.


----------



## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> Next on the listening list is the *Bayreuth '51 Siegfried*. Yes, I know I am doing this the wrong way round but I had to hear the Götterdämmerung first because of DA's enthusiasm.


This one........?
Are there any other 1951 Bayreuth Ring performances recorded?


----------



## Itullian

^I'm not aware of any other '51 Bayreuth recordings.


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> This one........?
> Are there any other 1951 Bayreuth Ring performances recorded?


Yes, that's the one and I'm not aware of any others so far. Does anyone know if the '55 Bayreuth Parsifal exists or is it going to be the one that got away?


----------



## kineno

There's also a Karajan Rheingold from 51.


----------



## DarkAngel

kineno said:


> There's also a Karajan Rheingold from 51.


Is this a 51 *Bayreuth* Rheingold, I have never seen that recording before, what label is it on......

So far for 1951 Bayreuth I have seen act 3 of Walkure, Siegfried (walhall) Gotterdammerung (testament)


----------



## Barbebleu

View attachment 71370


DarkAngel said:


> Is this a 51 *Bayreuth* Rheingold, I have never seen that recording before, what label is it on......
> 
> So far for 1951 Bayreuth I have seen act 3 of Walkure, Siegfried (walhall) Gotterdammerung (testament)


Yes it's Bayreuth 1951. On the Walhall label.


----------



## kineno

Also Myto: http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Das-Rh...1434904489&sr=8-23&keywords=Karajan+Rheingold


----------



## Itullian

Barbebleu said:


> View attachment 71370
> 
> 
> Yes it's Bayreuth 1951. On the Walhall label.


That Rheingold is on youtube as well.


----------



## Barbebleu

Siegfried Bayreuth 1951. Act 1. Best riddle scene ever. Sigurd Bjorling is immense as Der Wanderer, Paul Kuen is a wonderful Mime. The whole scene just crackles with hidden menace.


----------



## Itullian

What are we listening to?


----------



## DarkAngel

Just for an experiment I got one of the 1959 Konwitschny ROH very cheap at Amazon USA, but the sound was just as bad as samples heard on Presto UK so I threw it away........I need that great Bayreuth sound










Going through this great boxset, it is crammed full of really great segments from wagner operas....many I have not seen/heard before and I can't find easily to buy separately.......these 10CD sets are a steal for wagner singers


----------



## Itullian

^Yeah, they sounded pretty bad to me too. Didn't sound listenable.
I think we got the best of them DA.


----------



## Itullian

Don't forget about the Kempe 60 set.
A real hidden gem of a cycle.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Don't forget about the Kempe 60 set.
> A real hidden gem of a cycle.


I have a ton of Wagner to listen to, I have listened to extended sections of 1960 Kempe Bayreuth Ring but not entire set
Then I get distracted by these Tristan und Isolde threads with Woodduck's "deep dive" into inner details.......I have to stay focused


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> I have a ton of Wagner to listen to, I have listened to extended sections of 1960 Kempe Bayreuth Ring but not entire set
> Then I get distracted by these Tristan und Isolde threads with Woodduck's "deep dive" into inner details.......I have to stay focused


Same here. I have cycles all around me and can't decide what to reach for :lol:

I think duck and you both make good points.
I go back and forth between them.


----------



## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> I have a ton of Wagner to listen to, I have listened to extended sections of 1960 Kempe Bayreuth Ring but not entire set
> Then I get distracted by these Tristan und Isolde threads with Woodduck's "deep dive" into inner details.......I have to stay focused


So how come I had to wait until I was a senior citizen to distract a beautiful dark angel into taking a deep dive into my inner details?


----------



## DarkAngel

Woodduck said:


> So how come I had to wait until I was a senior citizen to distract a beautiful dark angel into taking a deep dive into my inner details?


The answer to that riddle is contained in the ancient book of tomes in the sacred library of castle Montsalvat........


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> Just for an experiment I got one of the 1959 Konwitschny ROH very cheap at Amazon USA, but the sound was just as bad as samples heard on Presto UK so I threw it away........I need that great Bayreuth sound
> 
> I think you must have been exceptionally unlucky DA. I have listened to Rheingold, Walkure and Siegfried from ROH 1959 and they sounded pretty good to me. I have heard a few minutes of Götterdämmerung until I got distracted by the '51 Bayreuth stuff and it still sounded pretty o.k.


----------



## Itullian

Hey DA,
Was lookin around Presto and came across '62 Kempe Bayreuth cycle
The sound is good.
What put me off though is Oscar Meyer Wiener as Wotan.
And Fritzy Uhl as Siegmund. Excellent cast otherwise though.
Want to check it out?


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> Hey DA,
> Was lookin around Presto and came across '62 Kempe Bayreuth cycle
> The sound is good.
> What put me off though is Oscar Meyer Wiener as Wotan.
> And Fritzy Uhl as Siegmund. Excellent cast otherwise though.
> Want to check it out?


What are your objections to Wiener and Uhl, Itullian? O.k. Maybe not Hotter and Windgassen but still pretty fair singers compared to the mediocre standards of the present day. It is a good cycle and Kempe is great.


----------



## Itullian

Barbebleu said:


> What are your objections to Wiener and Uhl, Itullian? O.k. Maybe not Hotter and Windgassen but still pretty fair singers compared to the mediocre standards of the present day. It is a good cycle and Kempe is great.


It may be a good cycle. Uhl is ok, but I just don't like Wieners tone and lack of heft.


----------



## DavidA

Itullian said:


> It may be a good cycle. Uhl is ok, but I just don't like Wieners tone and lack of heft.


Uhl got pilloried by the critics as Tristan in Solri's ill fated recording. I think opinion always did him down then. He was never a Tristan but he was a good singer within his range - as Lohengrin or Parsifal (in Karajan's live recording). I wouldn't have thought he had the baritonal heft for Siegmund though.


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> It may be a good cycle. Uhl is ok, but I just don't like Wieners tone and lack of heft.


Fair enough. Wiener certainly is not in the big leagues but, like DavidA, I always felt that Uhl wasn't half as bad as he was made out to be.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Hey DA,
> Was lookin around Presto and came across '62 Kempe Bayreuth cycle
> The sound is good.
> What put me off though is Oscar Meyer Wiener as Wotan.
> And Fritzy Uhl as Siegmund. Excellent cast otherwise though.
> Want to check it out?


Yes the price is reasonable, tempting......

I didn't mention I also recently got this 1957 Kempe ROH Walkure......
We hear a young Nilsson getting started here, also very cheap with better overall cast, have not seen other parts of this Ring only the Walkure

I like the sound better here than the 1959 Konwitschny ROH Walkure


----------



## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> Just for an experiment I got one of the 1959 Konwitschny ROH very cheap at Amazon USA, but the sound was just as bad as samples heard on Presto UK so I threw it away........I need that great Bayreuth sound
> 
> I think you must have been exceptionally unlucky DA. I have listened to Rheingold, Walkure and Siegfried from ROH 1959 and they sounded pretty good to me. I have heard a few minutes of Götterdämmerung until I got distracted by the '51 Bayreuth stuff and it still sounded pretty o.k.


I should be more exact in my decription, the 59 ROH sound is not really bad......but the surrounding Rings of 60 Kempe Bayreuth and 58 Knap Bayreuth are much better sound for me so that I would always reach for those first and I would not get any use from having the Konwitschny


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Yes the price is reasonable, tempting......
> 
> I didn't mention I also recently got this 1957 Kempe ROH Walkure......
> We hear a young Nilsson getting started here, also very cheap with better overall cast, *have not seen other parts of this Ring only the Walkure*
> 
> I like the sound better here than the 1959 Konwitschny ROH Ring


Amazon has them. Not real cheap though.
Just put , Wagner Kempe in and they're there about page 4 or 5.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Amazon has them. Not real cheap though.
> Just put , Wagner Kempe in and they're there about page 4 or 5.


Itullian is on the ball.........look at the Rheingold with Joan Sutherland as a Rheinmaiden, those were the days


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Itullian is on the ball.........look at the Rheingold with Joan Sutherland as a Rheinmaiden, those were the days


IIRC she was the woodbird on Solti's Siegfried too.

Best cover picture too!!!

Hows the sound on that Walkure DA?


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> IIRC she was the woodbird on Solti's Siegfried too.
> 
> Best cover picture too!!!
> 
> *Hows the sound on that Walkure DA*?







Very good, better than the 1959 Konwitschny and close to the 1957-58 Knap Bayreuth (but these are still better)

The Walkure much cheaper than other operas in this ring at Amazon, I am not looking to get others at those higher prices


----------



## Itullian

How about that '62 Bayreuth Kempe Ring?
Tempted?


----------



## Barbebleu

Just got a "new" Parsifal. Paris 1954. Stuttgart Opera on tour. Good recording with the voices a bit prominent. Modl is good as Kundry and Neidlinger is an excellent Amfortas. Gurnemanz and Klingsor are good but not known to me. But the standout is Windgassen who is in fantastic voice and he just rings out with a fantastic young, fresh tone.


----------



## gardibolt

I just looked on norpete.com for Walhall releases and was amazed to see nearly *200* listings. Why have I never heard of this label before this thread?? Sweet prices, too. Are they uniformly high quality? From this thread it sounds like the Wagner ones are, anyway. Where have these master tapes been hiding? There's a story here somewhere.

It's mind-boggling that you can now acquire virtually the entire 1950s Bayreuth output without much difficulty. For decades it's been so very hit and miss, and what there was that I hit upon wasn't very good audio quality. I remember getting hold of a Walküre and a Lohengrin from Bayreuth many years ago (no idea which ones or who the conductor was any more--disposed of them 35+ years ago) and being turned off of the whole idea of recordings from there. But if there are good masters available that weren't before that could change my entire outlook on this.

I haven't gone through the entire thread, but there's been no mention lately of the box of Wagner at the Met; some terrific historic (1936-1954) recordings in there with lots and lots of Melchior, Flagstad, prime Hotter, Szell, Reiner, Leinsdorf, Bodanzky etc. As I recollect it's short a Parsifal but still plenty of great singing and in decent quality masters for what was a good price---$37 when I bought it last fall for 25 discs; I see it's still in that range. If you only can get one cheap historic Wagner box, this is the one.


----------



## gardibolt

I just looked on norpete.com for Walhall releases and was amazed to see nearly *200* listings. Why have I never heard of this label before this thread?? Sweet prices, too. Are they uniformly high quality? From this thread it sounds like the Wagner ones are, anyway. Where have these master tapes been hiding? There's a story here somewhere.

It's mind-boggling that you can now acquire virtually the entire 1950s Bayreuth output without much difficulty. For decades it's been so very hit and miss, and what there was that I hit upon wasn't very good audio quality. I remember getting hold of a Walküre and a Lohengrin from Bayreuth many years ago (no idea which ones or who the conductor was any more--disposed of them 35+ years ago) and being turned off of the whole idea of recordings from there. But if there are good masters available that weren't before that could change my entire outlook on this.

I haven't gone through the entire thread, but there's been no mention lately of the box of Wagner at the Met; some terrific historic (1936-1954) recordings in there with lots and lots of Melchior, Flagstad, prime Hotter, Szell, Reiner, Leinsdorf, Bodanzky etc. As I recollect it's short a Parsifal but still plenty of great singing and in decent quality masters for what was a good price---$37 when I bought it last fall for 25 discs; I see it's still in that range. If you only can get one cheap historic Wagner box, this is the one.


----------



## gardibolt

I just looked on norpete.com for Walhall releases and was amazed to see nearly *200* listings. Why have I never heard of this label before this thread?? Sweet prices, too. Are they uniformly high quality? From this thread it sounds like the Wagner ones are, anyway. Where have these master tapes been hiding? There's a story here somewhere.

It's mind-boggling that you can now acquire virtually the entire 1950s Bayreuth output without much difficulty. For decades it's been so very hit and miss, and what there was that I hit upon wasn't very good audio quality. I remember getting hold of a Walküre and a Lohengrin from Bayreuth many years ago (no idea which ones or who the conductor was any more--disposed of them 35+ years ago) and being turned off of the whole idea of recordings from there. But if there are good masters available that weren't before that could change my entire outlook on this.

I haven't gone through the entire thread, but there's been no mention lately of the box of Wagner at the Met; some terrific historic (1936-1954) recordings in there with lots and lots of Melchior, Flagstad, prime Hotter, Szell, Reiner, Leinsdorf, Bodanzky etc. As I recollect it's short a Parsifal but still plenty of great singing and in decent quality masters for what was a good price---$37 when I bought it last fall for 25 discs; I see it's still in that range. If you only can get one cheap historic Wagner box, this is the one.


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> *I just looked on norpete.com* for Walhall releases and was amazed to see nearly *200* listings. Why have I never heard of this label before this thread?? Sweet prices, too. Are they uniformly high quality? From this thread it sounds like the Wagner ones are, anyway. Where have these master tapes been hiding? There's a story here somewhere.


Great vendor, I have made several orders already this year for Wagner Walhall Eternity and Myto releases, free shipping over $50 definitely get:

1952 Myto Ring - Keilberth
1957 Walhall Ring - Knap
1958 Walhall Ring - Knap
1960 Myto Ring - Kempe

Plus other classic Dutchman, Tannhauser, Lohengrin, Tristan Isolde, Parsifal sets


----------



## DavidA

Barbebleu said:


> Fair enough. I always felt that Uhl wasn't half as bad as he was made out to be.


Considering that Uhl was inadequate (it is generally agreed) for the Tristan, and that Culshaw and his team spent quite a bit of time auditioning for the role (Windgassen being unavailable), one wonders what the rest were like!


----------



## Barbebleu

I agree. It is a great box with some seriously fine singing. My only slight caveat is - beware of the Met's fondness for cuts! This is the Wagner at the Met box that I am referring to as per Gardibolts post.


----------



## DarkAngel

Another 10CD boxset in the "future buy" basket, to be released 7/7/2015 at Amazon USA. Notice that this contains only Wagner works which although a small percentage of his total varied vocal output (he has other 10 CD sets with other works) I have been impressed especially with his Walther in Meistersinger......Itullian recently purchased his Lohengrin

I love the 10 CD sets, very cheap........


----------



## Itullian

I'm trying to conserve my funds for the Keilberth 53 and Solti next month.

Trying


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> I'm trying to conserve my funds for the *Keilberth 53 *and Solti next month.
> 
> Trying


We will push the buy button when we get the lower Amazon sellers price listed after release date......


----------



## Itullian

Look at that cast DA!!!!!!!!
WOW


US has it 7/29. Others beginning of the month.


----------



## DarkAngel

next message......


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> next message......


Checking it out now


----------



## Itullian

Couldn't find any info on the contents yet.


----------



## Itullian

Listened to Rheingold from this set. Fantastic!!!










Where are the other 3 Stiedry operas?


----------



## gardibolt

DarkAngel said:


> Great vendor, I have made several orders already this year for Wagner Walhall Eternity and Myto releases, free shipping over $50 definitely get:
> 
> 1952 Myto Ring - Keilberth
> 1957 Walhall Ring - Knap
> 1958 Walhall Ring - Knap
> 1960 Myto Ring - Kempe
> 
> Plus other classic Dutchman, Tannhauser, Lohengrin, Tristan Isolde, Parsifal sets


I already got the 1952 Keilbarth on Myto from them, and I have the 57 Knap on Walhall on order from Amazon sellers. This norpete order of Walhalls included:
1936 Melchior/Flagstad Tannhauser
1957 Cluytens Meistersinger
1955 Knap Fliegende Hollander
1957 Kempe Ring ROH


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> Listened to Rheingold from this set. Fantastic!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where are the other 3 Stiedry operas?


You know where they are, Itullian. You just don't want to go there!! Seriously though, as far as I can see that's the only place unless you want an import copy of the whole cycle at about $450 from Amazon .co.uk!? Sheesh!


----------



## Itullian

Anyone know what the earliest Wagner recording is?


----------



## Figleaf

Itullian said:


> Anyone know what the earliest Wagner recording is?


I'm afraid I don't know the answer to that. I don't remember hearing anything dating from earlier than the late 1890s. There was a piano version of something from Lohengrin issued on a five inch Berliner record some time between 1889 and 1892: this is likely to be the earliest commercially issued Wagner recording, and I don't know whether any copies are still extant or indeed whether it would be any more than a curiosity:

http://www.archeophone.org/Berliner5inch/

This Marston CD has some very early private recordings, but the only Wagner aria is a recording of 'In fernem Land' from 1898, not especially early (i.e. there are commercial recordings from earlier than this, like the Berliners listed on the site linked to above) and the tenor was only a whippersnapper born in 1873, the same year as Caruso. So far, so disappointing!










http://marstonrecords.com/block/block_tracks.htm

The earliest Wagner recordings to be of some actual historical significance might well be those made by singers who worked with Wagner the man, although the recordings themselves are not among the most ancient as far as I'm aware. Hermann Winkelmann recorded 'Am stillen Herd' in Vienna for Berliner in 1900. I presume the record sounded better than this when it was new, and has deteriorated badly.






Here's the Prize Song. Same singer, same year, slightly better sound.





 Can anyone understand that snatch of conversation at the end?

Here's Lilli Lehmann a few years later, in quite nice sound:






Here's a _sound film_ circa 1903 of Julius Lieban (who I read somewhere was admired by Wagner for his portrayal of Mime). Yes, I know- it's not that early and it's a comprimario tenor singing a non-Wagnerian Italian baritone role for some reason- but isn't it amazing?






Not forgetting the Mapleson cylinders, which are very early for live recordings (1901-3).






The cylinders weren't always labelled accurately, and identifying the singers is not easy. Some of the Wagner excerpts once originally attributed to Jean de Reszke are now thought to be of the rather less glamorous Andreas Dippel, according to the notes that come with the Symposium CD. Some, like the above link, sound so bad they could be of anyone singing anything, though some are better, like Lillian Nordica in the Immolation Scene:






None of those recordings are terribly ancient, I'm afraid. I don't know much at all about Wagner or his singers, and so someone who knows more about historical Wagner interpreters than I do can probably beat those examples quite easily.


----------



## Itullian

Wow, and I thought the 1930s was the earliest.


----------



## Figleaf

Off topic but interesting:

http://www.firstsounds.org/

Back on topic, but it's rather a silly question I'm afraid: did Richard Wagner himself ever make a sound recording? The obvious answer is 'No, stupid- he died in 1883.' Yet the technology was available... the only reason I'm asking the question is that I have a very clear memory of browsing through the CD racks in Blackwells Music Shop in Oxford as an undergrad twenty years ago or thereabouts, when I came upon an interesting looking historical CD box set the name of which now escapes me, and which was priced well beyond my student budget. I took out the insert and began to read it, and there on the track listing was something claiming to be a live recording of Richard Wagner himself conducting an orchestra! The weird thing is that I haven't been able since then to find any trace of this alleged recording of Wagner the man: even if it was a hoax or a mistaken attribution, it would be well known in record collecting circles, yet I've never heard anybody mention it and Google is no help. I'm not trying to start some urban myth here, and I'm quite amenable to the suggestion that I misread or misinterpreted the CD notes, or dreamed up the whole thing... but I'm hoping somebody will be able to shed some light on it and that I'm not going crazy.


----------



## Figleaf

Itullian said:


> Wow, and I thought the 1930s was the earliest.


No, there was loads before that, much of it excellent. For an example relevant to this thread, there was a whole act of Tannhäuser recorded in 1909. I haven't heard it, unfortunately.


----------



## Figleaf

What we really need is the Wagnerian equivalent of Peter Schram. Anyone?


----------



## Itullian

Listening to the '50 live Furty Rheingold from this excellent cycle in latest re master.
Excellent.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Listening to the '50 live Furty Rheingold from this excellent cycle in latest re master.
> Excellent.


The 1950 Furtwangler Ring sounds amazing in Pristine XR remaster........really impressive!
I am tempted to do something about that 

One good thing about our 1952 Keilberth Ring on Myto label (with very good sound) it has some different singers, before Windgassen (Siegfried) was to appear and takeover Bayreuth scence we have an *"old guy" that duck surely likes with Max Lorenz

*Lorenz is also in our soon to be purchased 1953 Keilberth Ring










*Figleaf......*
Thanks for that early Wagner info.


----------



## Itullian

^The Archipel sounds very good too DA. Check the Amazon review 
And its cheap. 
I'm sure Pristine is better though.:tiphat:

You know you must have it DA


----------



## Bill H.

Figleaf said:


> Off topic but interesting:
> 
> http://www.firstsounds.org/
> 
> Back on topic, but it's rather a silly question I'm afraid: did Richard Wagner himself ever make a sound recording? The obvious answer is 'No, stupid- he died in 1883.' Yet the technology was available... the only reason I'm asking the question is that I have a very clear memory of browsing through the CD racks in Blackwells Music Shop in Oxford as an undergrad twenty years ago or thereabouts, when I came upon an interesting looking historical CD box set the name of which now escapes me, and which was priced well beyond my student budget. I took out the insert and began to read it, and there on the track listing was something claiming to be a live recording of Richard Wagner himself conducting an orchestra! The weird thing is that I haven't been able since then to find any trace of this alleged recording of Wagner the man: even if it was a hoax or a mistaken attribution, it would be well known in record collecting circles, yet I've never heard anybody mention it and Google is no help. I'm not trying to start some urban myth here, and I'm quite amenable to the suggestion that I misread or misinterpreted the CD notes, or dreamed up the whole thing... but I'm hoping somebody will be able to shed some light on it and that I'm not going crazy.


Was it possible that the recording you saw was of Richard's son, Siegfried conducting? He made a number of them in the 1920s, along with Karl Muck and others, in Bayreuth. I have an old LP with some Parsifal excerpts from that time, including ones with the original "Parsifal Bells" that Wagner had made for the Festspielhaus. And Pristine has remastered and reissued these as well: https://www.pristineclassical.com/paco103.html.

I can post a link to the LP tracks that I've transferred if anyone is interested. What's fascinating is that the Parsifal Bells were already out of tune with 1920s pitch conventions, and it sounds it. The bells, of course, were lost in WWII when the Nazis melted them down.


----------



## Figleaf

Bill H. said:


> Was it possible that the recording you saw was of Richard's son, Siegfried conducting? He made a number of them in the 1920s, along with Karl Muck and others, in Bayreuth. I have an old LP with some Parsifal excerpts from that time, including ones with the original "Parsifal Bells" that Wagner had made for the Festspielhaus. And Pristine has remastered and reissued these as well: https://www.pristineclassical.com/paco103.html.
> 
> I can post a link to the LP tracks that I've transferred if anyone is interested. What's fascinating is that the Parsifal Bells were already out of tune with 1920s pitch conventions, and it sounds it. The bells, of course, were lost in WWII when the Nazis melted them down.


That's quite possible, Bill. I think I have that recording too, on a Naxos Historical CD together with Muck conducting fragments of Parsifal.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Listening to the '50 live Furty Rheingold from this excellent cycle in latest re master.
> Excellent.












I placed an order with Amazon sellers for Rheingold and Walkure, these two operas were very cheap compared to other two in this Ring set, sound samples were an improvement compared to other versions I have heard...........


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> I placed an order with Amazon sellers for Rheingold and Walkure, these two operas were very cheap compared to other two in this Ring set, sound samples were an improvement compared to other versions I have heard...........


Yikes, I didn't notice the Gotterdammerung price.
sheeeesh


----------



## gardibolt

I've listened to the 1957 Kna Rheingold and Götterdämmerungs on Walhall (Walküre and Siegfried are still in transit) and I have to take back all I said about the use of Bayreuth as a recording venue; these sound terrific. Thanks for getting me off the fence about them. The 1952 Keilberths aren't too bad either, so I guess my ugly past experiences were just unlucky ones (or possibly they were badly transferred from poorly made dupes).


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> I've listened to the *1957 Kna Rheingold and Götterdämmerungs *on Walhall (Walküre and Siegfried are still in transit) and* I have to take back all I said about the use of Bayreuth as a recording venue; these sound terrific. *Thanks for getting me off the fence about them. The 1952 Keilberths aren't too bad either, so I guess my ugly past experiences were just unlucky ones (or possibly they were badly transferred from poorly made dupes).


Yes these newest Ring remasters are really very good sounding, great price - great sound - great singers 
A winning combination, buy buy buy.......


----------



## DarkAngel

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/richard-wagner-der-ring-des-nibelungen/hnum/7685120

Sound samples from soon to be released 1953 Keilberth Ring - Rheingold......they sound excellent, this is now officially a must buy!


----------



## Barbebleu

N


DarkAngel said:


> https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/richard-wagner-der-ring-des-nibelungen/hnum/7685120
> 
> Sound samples from soon to be released 1953 Keilberth Ring - Rheingold......they sound excellent, this is now officially a must buy!


You will not be disappointed. There are so many good Ring cycles available now. An embarrassment of riches. Now if I could only find time to listen to them!


----------



## gardibolt

It's almost ridiculous. Since last October I've added seven Ring cycles to my collection with two more on the way and at least four on my wish list.....


----------



## Barbebleu

gardibolt said:


> It's almost ridiculous. Since last October I've added seven Ring cycles to my collection with two more on the way and at least four on my wish list.....


At my latest count I have, to my horror and surprise, 44 Ring cycles, 42 in German, 2 in English, at least half of which I have not got around to hearing. I have a ghastly feeling I'll be dead before I hear them all, particularly if I buy any more.


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/richard-wagner-der-ring-des-nibelungen/hnum/7685120
> 
> Sound samples from soon to be released 1953 Keilberth Ring - Rheingold......they sound excellent, this is now officially a must buy!


DA knows all the sites to check for sound samples


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> DA knows all the sites to check for sound samples


The site quotes a price of €36.99. Is that not about $40? Seems a great price. Of course you have postage on top of that and that could be considerable from Europe to the States.


----------



## Allanmcf

Barbebleu said:


> At my latest count I have, to my horror and surprise, 44 Ring cycles, 42 in German, 2 in English, at least half of which I have not got around to hearing. I have a ghastly feeling I'll be dead before I hear them all, particularly if I buy any more.


I thought I had a few. No contest. Which Bayreuth ones do you have?


----------



## Itullian

Amazon uk and us will have it.
Yes, about 40 dollars.


----------



## gardibolt

There should be a decrease from removing VAT though, so it should be closer to $35 shipped to the US, I think.


----------



## KirbyH

ohhhhhh my goodness I love this performance of Tannhauser - I have the recording laid down my Philips and I rank it streaks ahead of Solti and Barenboim. The Bayreuth acoustic is captured so well and I love the ambient feeling of the live setting.


----------



## Barbebleu

In the absence of the 1937 Met Tristan I listened to the 1937 Beecham Tristan with Melchior and Flagstad. My goodness, Melchior was such an intense Tristan. Hard to think of who else is actually in the same league for concentrated delirium in Act 3. Maybe Vickers, or possibly Vinay but nobody else I can think of. Other suggestions are welcome.


----------



## Barbebleu

KirbyH said:


> ohhhhhh my goodness I love this performance of Tannhauser - I have the recording laid down my Philips and I rank it streaks ahead of Solti and Barenboim. The Bayreuth acoustic is captured so well and I love the ambient feeling of the live setting.


Which version is it. No image appeared.


----------



## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> In the absence of the 1937 Met Tristan I listened to the 1937 Beecham Tristan with Melchior and Flagstad. My goodness, Melchior was such an intense Tristan. Hard to think of who else is actually in the same league for concentrated delirium in Act 3. Maybe Vickers, or possibly Vinay but nobody else I can think of. *Other suggestions are welcome*.


I have the 1936 Reiner ROH that most people have with Melchior/Flagstad and the 1938 MET Tristan from boxset, but my favorite overall to date is 1952 Karajan with Vinay/Modl


----------



## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> Which version is it. No image appeared.


Barbie pretty sure he was referring to famous Sawallisch Bayreuth previously on Phillips label but now on cheaper budget releases like ZYX label pictured below.......


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> I have the 1936 Reiner ROH that most people have with Melchior/Flagstad and the 1938 MET Tristan from boxset, but my favorite overall to date is 1952 Karajan with Vinay/Modl


I have these too DA but to my shame have not yet listened to the Karajan. I will remedy that over the next few weeks.


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> Barbie pretty sure he was referring to famous Sawallisch Bayreuth previously on Phillips label but now on cheaper budget releases like ZYX label pictured below.......


Thanks DA. I just wanted to be sure that it was one that I have and wasn't missing out. Sad person that I am!


----------



## Barbebleu

Allanmcf said:


> I thought I had a few. No contest. Which Bayreuth ones do you have?


Complete - 42, 52, 53, 55 to 58, 60, 61, 64 to 66, 68 to 71, 76, 77, 80, 83, 91, 07, 08.
Incomplete - 51(incomplete Walkure), 63(no Götterdämmerung), 67(no Walkure or Götterdämmerung)


----------



## Itullian




----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


>


Niccccceeee......I think I know where you got that, what a great performance with amazingly good sound, a desert island disc candidate, I absolutely love this

Did you notice on cover that this was originally a Decca recording (Culshaw) that lay buried away in archives like the Decca 1955 Keilberth Ring till Testament label struck gold and released them to the public


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Niccccceeee......I think I know where you got that, what a great performance with amazingly good sound, a desert island disc candidate


DA is very wise.


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Niccccceeee......I think I know where you got that, what a great performance with amazingly good sound, a desert island disc candidate, I absolutely love this
> 
> Did you notice on cover that this was originally a Decca recording (Culshaw) that lay buried away in archives like the Decca 1955 Keilberth Ring till Testament label struck gold and released them to the public


Yes, I read that Decca recorded the entire cycle, but decided the other three operas were not worthy of release.
Wonder why?


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Yes, I read that Decca recorded the entire cycle, but decided the other three operas were not worthy of release. Wonder why?


Recently Barbie mentioned something about a 1951 wagner recording and we did a deep search and almost were able to piece together a 1951 Bayreuth Ring - except for Walkure which we have only act 3 (but even that is amazing)


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> Recently Barbie mentioned something about a 1951 wagner recording and we did a deep search and almost were able to piece together a 1951 Bayreuth Ring - except for Walkure which we have only act 3 (but even that is amazing)


So close. Surely someone, somewhere, has either a complete Walkure or even the missing Acts.


----------



## Itullian

Yes, I've seen those and listened to the Rheingold on youtube.
The sound wasn't bad.

The Knappy must have been pretty bad if no ones releasing it


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Yes, I've seen those and listened to the Rheingold on youtube.
> The sound wasn't bad.
> 
> The *Knappy must have been pretty bad *if no ones releasing it


*
Unthinkable.......*
With an unbroken string of great Ring recordings throughout the 1950s and the glorious 1951 Gotterdammerung as evidence the other three operas could surely be nothing but great, more likely the 1951 Knap masters were lost or damaged, there is probably a story about this somewhere


----------



## DarkAngel

DarkAngel said:


> *
> Unthinkable.......*
> With an unbroken string of great Ring recordings throughout the 1950s and the glorious 1951 Gotterdammerung as evidence the other three operas could surely be nothing but great, more likely the 1951 Knap masters were lost or damaged, *there is probably a story about this somewhere*


Most of the story is in the booklet that come with Testament Gotterdammerung, mainly has to do with record label contracts with EMI/Decca competing to sign talent, Legge was not getting good results with recording techniques during Knap Ring till final Gotterdammerung when they were very happy with results.....so I don't think there are any surviving tapes of 1st 3 operas for 1951 Knap

Nice backstory about Flagstad originally called on to re-open Bayreuth as Brunhilde but she was previously committed and recommended her friend Astrid Varnay, she auditioned for wagner family and was hired......her 1951 performance was a great success with numerous solo curtain calls and long ovations for this great singer......the rest is history as Varnay went on to perform in many Bayreuth Rings and become one of the greatest Brunhilde singers


----------



## DavidA

Itullian said:


> Yes, I read that Decca recorded the entire cycle, but decided the other three operas were not worthy of release.
> Wonder why?


according to Culshaw the other performances were not satisfactory. In Walkure the microphones failed I believe. So Gotterdamerung was the only one worthy of release. However, problems over artists' contracts bedevilled it's release.


----------



## Itullian




----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


>


I love that 1952 Tristan also, Modl has won me over with her highly dramatic characterization, she has fire in her viens! 
This is same perfromance as Walhall Eternity, both have much improved sound compared to previous versions, Barbie needs to give it a spin.....


----------



## Itullian

Decent booklet in the blue one too.

I still hate that the last 2 minutes of act one is on disc two. i'm sure they could have included it.


----------



## Steatopygous

What a marvellous thread. As a brand new member, I have not yet had the luxury of going through it in detail, but I certainly shall. Thanks to everyone.


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> I love that 1952 Tristan also, Modl has won me over with her highly dramatic characterization, she has fire in her viens!
> This is same perfromance as Walhall Eternity, both have much improved sound compared to previous versions, Barbie needs to give it a spin.....


I do have the Walhall one DA. Just haven't listened to it yet. Yes I know but so much music, not enough hours in the day!


----------



## Itullian

Great live performance in great stereo sound.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Great live performance in great stereo sound.


Theo Adam........I though he was not on our preferred singer list?


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Theo Adam........I though he was not on our preferred singer list?


He isn't. But he is better here. And the performance of the rest is stellar.
Plus the great sound and a front row seat at Bayreuth is worth it. 

Better than Wiener and better than his Wotan.


----------



## arbiter elegantiarum

DarkAngel said:


> I love that 1952 Tristan also, Modl has won me over with her highly dramatic characterization, she has fire in her viens!
> This is same perfromance as Walhall Eternity, both have much improved sound compared to previous versions.


How does the Membran compare with Orfeo sonically?


----------



## DarkAngel

arbiter elegantiarum said:


> How does the Membran compare with Orfeo sonically?


Have not heard the Orfeo......price is extreme

But I used to have the old Opera d Oro and both the Membran (blu cover that Itullian posted) and Walhall eternity are noticeably better sounding....both sound very good now


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Have not heard the Orfeo......price is extreme
> 
> But I used to have the old Opera d Oro and both the Membran (blu cover that Itullian posted) and Walhall eternity are noticeably better sounding....both sound very good now


I don't see Membran on here anywhere DA. 

It says, The Intense Media.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> I *don't see Membran on here anywhere DA*.
> 
> It says, The Intense Media.


Look that CD up on Amazon USA and it will list label as Membran.......all these different names that maybe just smaller lines sold by bigger parent company, hard to keep track of


----------



## Clayton

DarkAngel said:


> https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/richard-wagner-der-ring-des-nibelungen/hnum/7685120
> 
> Sound samples from soon to be released 1953 Keilberth Ring - Rheingold......they sound excellent, this is now officially a must buy!


Did you get this yet? Is the sound good?


----------



## DarkAngel

Clayton said:


> Did you get this yet? Is the sound good?


You can buy that now at Presto UK, but we are waiting for Amazon USA release July 31 since price is cheaper......(Presto UK is $57.25 and I expect Amazon USA sellers to be $39)

Sound is very good, check link under picture of the boxset for samples


----------



## Clayton

DarkAngel said:


> You can buy that now at Presto UK, but we are waiting for Amazon USA release July 31 since price is cheaper......
> 
> Sound is very good, check post 671 for samples


I see the link. Sorry, as usual my brain engages way too late.

I'm very tempted now


----------



## Barbebleu

Clayton said:


> I see the link. Sorry, as usual my brain engages way too late.
> 
> I'm very tempted now


It is very good. At least as good as the '55 and '58 Rings.


----------



## arbiter elegantiarum

DarkAngel said:


> I used to have the old Opera d Oro and both the Membran (blu cover that Itullian posted) and Walhall eternity are noticeably better sounding....both sound very good now


Thank you for your prompt reply.

I have seen two different covers for the Orfeo release.

http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Tristan-Isolde-Richard/dp/B0000CB7RC










http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Tristan-Isolde-July-1952/dp/B0002JP55E










Does anybody know how they relate to each other?


----------



## Barbebleu

arbiter elegantiarum said:


> Thank you for your prompt reply.
> 
> I have seen two different covers for the Orfeo release.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Tristan-Isolde-Richard/dp/B0000CB7RC
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Tristan-Isolde-July-1952/dp/B0002JP55E
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does anybody know how they relate to each other?


Could they be different releases for different countries? Incidentally the date on the bottom recording would make it the opening performance at that year's festival.


----------



## Bill H.

Itullian said:


> Decent booklet in the blue one too.
> 
> I still hate that the last 2 minutes of act one is on disc two. i'm sure they could have included it.


With newer CD remastering methods I'm pretty sure it could be squeezed onto a single disk, but I don't know if anyone can be bothered to do so at the record companies.

Is the CD split during that passage of arpeggios in the strings, just before the chorus and Hotter chime in?

A few years ago I did my own remix of that performance, and managed to do a seamless splice across that CD split. However, I still couldn't (with a home PC) be able to force the capability to burn the extra seconds beyond 80 minutes for a CD-R, so I re-did the CD split at a point a few minutes earlier, during the "Tristan Chord" progression just before the two lovers call out each others' names. I don't know if it's a better solution, but in terms of the music it does psychologically compel the listener to want to make the transition across the CDs. Here is the link to my remix, anyone can download it if they want, either for the version with tracks split for 3 CDs, or for 3 long mp3 files that play the Acts uninterrupted:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByTWd_3f2RpSOS0zN01acjhTS0U

If anyone does listen to it, let me know if the split across the first two CDs works for you. I've been thinking of redoing it to just at the beginning of the chord progression instead. It's just a few seconds' change, but it might be a better place to do it.

[UPDATE} OK, I rechecked that CD split I did since I'd forgotten the reasons why I put it where I did. It turns out I may NOT be able to move it to another point earlier, because the total track length of CD 2 in my remix as it now stands is 79 minutes, 46 seconds...it might be worth a try if anyone thinks it's musically a better place to do so.


----------



## Itullian

What are you W fans listening to? :tiphat:


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> What are you W fans listening to? :tiphat:












Just received in mail today 1950 Furty Walkure and Rheingold........

Actually I am now listening to Verdi Un ballo - Callas live 1957 La Scala but those will soon be playing


----------



## Barbebleu

Next Wagner up is Hollander from Stuttgart 1936 after I have finished Jack Bruce's Harmony Row.


----------



## Itullian




----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


>


Is this something else with Theo Adam, Itullian? Are you becoming - shock, horror - a fan?


----------



## Itullian

Barbebleu said:


> Is this something else with Theo Adam, Itullian? Are you becoming - shock, horror - a fan?


Noooo way.
I put up sometimes based on other factors


----------



## gardibolt

What's the issue with Theo Adam? I'm tempted to say I don't know him from Adam, but I've had enough things thrown at me today.


----------



## Itullian

gardibolt said:


> What's the issue with Theo Adam? I'm tempted to say I don't know him from Adam, but I've had enough things thrown at me today.


To me he doesn't have a rich enough voice. And I'm not crazy about his tone either.
I avoid Wiener too.


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> To me he doesn't have a rich enough voice. And I'm not crazy about his tone either.
> I avoid Wiener too.


They weren't first division but, of course, compared to some of what's available today you would be happy to hear them in performance.


----------



## Itullian

Hey DA,
Furty is down to 10 buckos.


----------



## Becca

Bill H. said:


> A few years ago I did my own remix of that performance, and managed to do a seamless splice across that CD split. However, I still couldn't (with a home PC) be able to force the capability to burn the extra seconds beyond 80 minutes for a CD-R,


The actual capacity of a CD is slightly greater than 80 minutes and varies depending on the manufacturer. As a general rule you should be able to get 81.30" on a standard disc and sometimes slightly over 82" The ability to do that varies depending on the software being used and, even more, on the operating system that you are using. Linux open source software is much more likely to provide over-burning options.

One other trick, assuming that you don't have absolute pitch, is to extract the disc to a data file on your computer, then use software such as _audacity_ to change the speed without changing the pitch thereby getting (e.g.) 82" on an 80" disc. Of course nobody that I know would do such a thing


----------



## Itullian

Thanks Becca,
I know I've seen cds with more than 80 mins on it.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> He isn't. But he is better here. And the performance of the rest is stellar.
> Plus the great sound and a front row seat at Bayreuth is worth it.
> 
> Better than Wiener and better than his Wotan.


*Theo Adam* had the unfortunate task of following in the footsteps of Hans Hotter with his great 1950s Ring performances fresh in our minds, compared to singers today Theo would sound very good.........just that a fresh voiced Hotter was so vivid in his characterizations and flexible and nuanced in his tone and delivery making Theo seem a bit flat by comparison

Theo hit the big time as Wotan in the Bayreuth Bohm Ring performance










I also like that Tannhauser mainly as a showcase for Nilsson performance, Windgassen past his prime here in 1969, but in general the men do a really fine job


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Hey DA,
> Furty is down to 10 buckos.


I listened to 1950 Furtwangler Rheingold and Walkure and these are the best sounding normally priced versions I have heard, I suspect Pristine XR would be another step up in quality but these are fine for me. This 50 Ring is good to get exposure to different singers than those that became standards at Bayreuth during 1950s and to hear Furtwangler's conducting style.

However just out of curiosity I compared the Bayreuth 1952 Myto Keilberth Walkure to 1950 Furtwangler La Scala Walkure and I much prefer the sound quality and singers of the 52 Keilberth.......all at bargain prices, nice! (own both I say)


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> I listened to 1950 Furtwangler Rheingold and Walkure and these are the best sounding normally priced versions I have heard, I suspect Pristine XR would be another step up in quality but these are fine for me. This 50 Ring is good to get exposure to different singers than those that became standards at Bayreuth during 1950s and to hear Furtwangler's conducting style.
> 
> However just out of curiosity I compared the Bayreuth 1952 Myto Keilberth Walkure to 1950 Furtwangler La Scala Walkure and I much prefer the sound quality and singers of the 52 Keilberth.......all at bargain prices, nice! *(own both I say)*


I do.  And enjoy them both.
Soon we'll be comparing them to '53 Keilberth.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> I do.  And enjoy them both.
> Soon we'll be comparing them to '53 Keilberth.


yes yes yessssssssss.........it will be mine!



I wonder if Clayton or Barbie broke down and purchased already from Presto UK, no they would not do that to us......


----------



## Itullian

I hope the USA price drops a little.
35 would be nice 

I hope they would tell us if they did


----------



## gardibolt

Wow that 1955 Keilberth is pricey. Was it always so expensive, or are people just jacking up the price on Amazon and even moreso eBay?

Or have I just been spoiled by all these big boxes at 50 cents per disc? I finally bit on that 40-cd box of Wagner that has the Janowski Ring for $20.

Oh, and I see Pristine has a 10% off sale through the 15th of July. The Krauss Ring is calling my name. So many Rings, so many Rings.


----------



## Itullian

Yes, that 55 has always been pricey. You know Testament.
But it's a great Ring in great stereo.

That box set with the Janowski is a fantastic deal.

10percent? I need 25 to afford Pristine stuff :lol:


----------



## Itullian

Listening to this.
Beautiful singing and good sound.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Listening to this.
> Beautiful singing and good sound.


Nice cheaper companion to the other Konya Lohengrin from Bayreuth, both are excellent guides on the mystical journey to "In fernem Land"


----------



## gardibolt

Itullian said:


> Yes, that 55 has always been pricey. You know Testament.
> But it's a great Ring in great stereo.
> 
> That box set with the Janowski is a fantastic deal.
> 
> 10percent? I need 25 to afford Pristine stuff :lol:


Well, with the sale, buy 5 and that gets you 20% and 10 gets you 30%.  You know you want to.


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Nice cheaper companion to the other Konya Lohengrin from Bayreuth, both are excellent guides on the mystical journey to "In fernem Land"


I have that one also


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> Wow that 1955 Keilberth is pricey. Was it always so expensive, or are people just jacking up the price on Amazon and even moreso eBay?
> 
> Or have I just been spoiled by all these big boxes at 50 cents per disc? I finally bit on that 40-cd box of Wagner that has the Janowski Ring for $20.
> 
> Oh, and I see Pristine has a 10% off sale through the 15th of July. The Krauss Ring is calling my name. So many Rings, so many Rings.


Eventually all Wagner collectors must bite the bullet and buy the expensive 1955 stereo Keilberth on Testament, it is the best sound quality document we have of these great golden age 1950s singers in prime voice......

Hotter and Varnay here are not surpassed by any subsequent more modern Wotan/Brunhilde duo, this set will become a treasured possession as a reference point to measure other performances against.........the earlier 52, 53 Bayreuth Rings with Hotter Varnay are possibly even greater performances but the stereo sound in 55 sets the standard, buy buy buy



Pristine XR is easily the best sound I have heard for 53 Krauss Ring, you don't have to buy entire Ring (buy 1/2 to save money) but make sure you get the ambient stereo versions, these sound great........


----------



## Itullian

As usual DA speaks the eloquent truth :tiphat:


----------



## gardibolt

Weirdly, unless I'm reading it wrong, Pristine doesn't offer the Krauss Ring in mp3 form in ambient stereo like they normally do. Hmm.


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> Weirdly, unless I'm reading it wrong, Pristine doesn't offer the Krauss Ring in mp3 form in ambient stereo like they normally do. Hmm.


Looks like only FLAC downloads or physical CD discs offer ambient stereo.....


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> yes yes yessssssssss.........it will be mine!
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if Clayton or Barbie broke down and purchased already from Presto UK, no they would not do that to us......


I already had it from another source whom I cannot reveal because of an earlier agreement. I don't know where they got it but it is exceptionally good sound. Also my copy is in 320 MP3 format so not too much degradation. Apologies for not revealing that I already had it but I didn't want to appear too smug, no, really!!


----------



## Barbebleu

Barbebleu said:


> Is this something else with Theo Adam, Itullian? Are you becoming - shock, horror - a fan?


Thanks Itullian. Just realised I didn't have this. Now on order from Amazon. I must stop reading this forum before I'm in the poorhouse!!


----------



## Clayton

DarkAngel said:


> yes yes yessssssssss.........it will be mine!
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if Clayton or Barbie broke down and purchased already from Presto UK, no they would not do that to us......





Itullian said:


> I hope the USA price drops a little.
> 35 would be nice
> 
> I hope they would tell us if they did


YESSSSIR!

I did order and estimated delivery date is aaaaaages away (next Thursday). I am just resigned to the fact that everything I buy here in the UK will almost always be cheaper in the US...


----------



## Barbebleu

'


DarkAngel said:


> Eventually all Wagner collectors must bite the bullet and buy the expensive 1955 stereo Keilberth on Testament, it is the best sound quality document we have of these great golden age 1950s singers in prime voice......
> 
> Hotter and Varnay here are not surpassed by any subsequent more modern Wotan/Brunhilde duo, this set will become a treasured possession as a reference point to measure other performances against.........the earlier 52, 53 Bayreuth Rings with Hotter Varnay are possibly even greater performances but the stereo sound in 55 sets the standard, buy buy buy
> 
> 
> 
> Pristine XR is easily the best sound I have heard for 53 Krauss Ring, you don't have to buy entire Ring (buy 1/2 to save money) but make sure you get the ambient stereo versions, these sound great........


Is it not about time to revive the 5 favourite Rings thread? Particularly in light of what's been posted in the Historical Wagner recordings thread.


----------



## Clayton

DarkAngel said:


> ...Pristine XR is easily the best sound I have heard for 53 Krauss Ring, you don't have to buy entire Ring (buy 1/2 to save money) but make sure you get the ambient stereo versions, these sound great........


I'm very really enjoying Götterdämmerung at the moment and so had to order this as well...


----------



## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> *Is it not about time to revive the 5 favourite Rings thread?* Particularly in light of what's been posted in the Historical Wagner recordings thread.


Absolutely but first must digest the soon to be acquired 53 Keilberth boxset, then when dust settles a bit try to integrate all the recent 1950s Ring purchases into some type of preference order........

From my own post above I will have to go with the stereo 55 Keilberth as overall favorite desert island Ring, but from there things get very tough to call, for sure no Ring beyond the 1960s will make the top 5

Why don't you go first and we will follow (eventually)


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> Absolutely but first must digest the soon to be acquired 53 Keilberth boxset, then when dust settles a bit try to integrate all the recent 1950s Ring purchases into some type of preference order........
> 
> From my own post above I will have to go with the stereo 55 Keilberth as overall favorite desert island Ring, but from there things get very tough to call, for sure no Ring beyond the 1960s will make the top 5
> 
> Why don't you go first and we will follow (eventually)


I have some, shock, horror, 70's cycles to listen to and, although I'm pretty confident they won't supplant my 50's and 60's recordings, I will defer until I have heard them. Watch this space though!


----------



## gardibolt

I took my own advice and got the 30% off from Pristine ordering the Krauss 1953 Ring, the Furtwängler 1950 La Scala Ring plus Boris Godunov and the 1955 Norma with Callas.


----------



## Itullian

gardibolt said:


> I took my own advice and got the 30% off from Pristine ordering the Krauss 1953 Ring, the Furtwängler 1950 La Scala Ring plus Boris Godunov and the 1955 Norma with Callas.


30 percent off?


----------



## kineno

RIP Jon Vickers. The great heldentenor departed this world today.


----------



## Itullian

kineno said:


> RIP Jon Vickers. The great heldentenor departed this world today.


Sad to hear. One of the truly great voices.
And a good man.
Thank you sir. :tiphat: :angel:


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> 30 percent off?


That's the big spender discount, a sliding scale applied to large purchases at Pristine



> RIP Jon Vickers. The great heldentenor departed this world today.


I do have some fine wagner recordings with him including the last Bayreuth Parsifal with Knappy that duck was crowing about......


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> I took my own advice and got the 30% off from Pristine ordering the Krauss 1953 Ring, the Furtwängler 1950 La Scala Ring plus Boris Godunov and the 1955 Norma with Callas.


Download or physical disc?

I like how you think big and swing for the fences.......


----------



## gardibolt

Downloads. Running out of space for physical CDs.


----------



## DavidA

kineno said:


> RIP Jon Vickers. The great heldentenor departed this world today.


His Siegmund for Karajan is one of the truly great operatic experiences as is his Tristan and Otello. Britten hated his Grimes but nit remains a remarkable example of an interpreter seeing things the composer didn't.


----------



## Itullian

In honor of the great Jon Vickers listening to this today.............


----------



## kineno

Itullian said:


> In honor of the great Jon Vickers listening to this today.............


I listened to it last night! Amazing, even if Vickers and Kna weren't always in synch!


----------



## Itullian

Yes, it is!
That's the excitement of live recordings


----------



## gardibolt

I only have him in two Fidelios and three Medeas; weird that I don't have any Wagner with Vickers.


----------



## Bill H.

DarkAngel said:


> Looks like only FLAC downloads or physical CD discs offer ambient stereo.....


The Krauss Ring on Pristine is an older release by him, before he started universally issuing mp3 downloads in Ambient Stereo.


----------



## gardibolt

The Furtwängler 1950 Ring from Pristine (Ambient Stereo) sounds amazingly good....I knew it only from those rubbish Murray Hill LPs back in the day and this is a completely different thing.


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> The *Furtwängler 1950 Ring* from Pristine (Ambient Stereo) sounds amazingly good....I knew it only from those rubbish Murray Hill LPs back in the day and this is a completely different thing.


Andrew Rose at Pristine XR will not let you down, the long sound samples at Pristine website sound great......53 Krauss Ring is equally impressive in its sound improvement over any existing version


----------



## Bill H.

gardibolt said:


> The Furtwängler 1950 Ring from Pristine (Ambient Stereo) sounds amazingly good....I knew it only from those rubbish Murray Hill LPs back in the day and this is a completely different thing.


Yup, it sounds great, the only exception being in places where the source material seemed damaged. I'm especially glad at how he managed to remove so much of the phlegmatisms from the audience (one of the main reasons why I had always preferred the 1953 RAI Ring). Now if only those cuts weren't there....


----------



## DarkAngel

Scanning Amazon for any unclaimed gems as I wait for release of the 53 Keilberth Ring I had to smile when I saw this 2002 Golden Melodram release of the mighty 52 Karajan Tristan for over $300 used on Amazon, the newly released (again) Walhall Eternity sells for under $10 new Amazon USA........buy buy buy


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Scanning Amazon for any unclaimed gems as I wait for release of the 54 Keilberth Ring I had to smile when I saw this 2002 Golden Melodram release of the mighty 52 Karajan Tristan for over $300 used on Amazon, the newly released (again) Walhall Eternity sells for under $10 new Amazon USA........buy buy buy


I've been doing the same thing DA, except I'm waiting for '53 Krauss.


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> The Furtwängler 1950 Ring from Pristine (Ambient Stereo) sounds amazingly good....I knew it only from *those rubbish Murray Hill LPs *back in the day and this is a completely different thing.


I think I read a review where they also had the Murray Hill LPs but said they sounded terrible like listening to opera from a phone off the hook in La Scala lobby.........:lol:

The Music & Arts remaster CD set was a big improvement, but even those sound impaired compared to Pristine XR


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> I've been doing the same thing DA, except I'm waiting for '53 Krauss.


Did you order the Pristine XR ambient stereo Krauss? You dog don't keep secrets from us........


----------



## Itullian

No, I wish. Just having fun with your date.
Someday, I hope.
And ALL will know.

Have you had a chance to listen to Kempe Meister yet?


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> No, I wish. Just having fun with your date.
> Someday, I hope.
> And ALL will know.
> 
> Have you had a chance to *listen to Kempe Meister *yet?


I am bad like Barbie and have Wagner stack to listen to......I am curious to hear Rudolf Schock as Walther


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> I am bad like Barbie and have Wagner stack to listen to......I am curious to hear Rudolf Schock as Walther


The quintet sounds amazing on Pristine site.


----------



## gardibolt

[Never Mind] bumpity bump bump bump.


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> I've been doing the same thing DA, except I'm waiting for '53 Krauss.


How did the date of the Keilberth change from '53 in DA's original post to '54 in the reply?

I would love a '54 Keilberth. I have the Walkure but I've never seen the others. I have listened again to the '64 Parsifal. Kna's last and one of his best and a fitting tribute to the majestic Jon Vickers.


----------



## Clayton

Itullian said:


> ...Have you had a chance to listen to Kempe Meister yet?





DarkAngel said:


> I am bad like Barbie and have Wagner stack to listen to......


BadAngel!

I don't want to be a spoiler so won't comment but bump it up on the listening pile!


----------



## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> How did the date of the Keilberth *change from '53 in DA's original post to '54 in the reply*?
> 
> I would love a '54 Keilberth. I have the Walkure but I've never seen the others. I have listened again to the '64 Parsifal. Kna's last and one of his best and a fitting tribute to the majestic Jon Vickers.


Tully is so fast in responding to my post I didn't have time to proof read before he caught me with wrong date........


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> [Never Mind] bumpity bump bump bump.


Now that I am home I compared my new Orfeo remaster ROTV compared to Pristine XR ambient stereo ROTV (ride of the Valkyries) and could easily hear an improvement with Pristine, increased clarity across the board. Because they are both mono and live Bayreuth you will not hear the thunderous powerful lower brass instruments/bass of the studio Solti for instance, the classic live Bayreuth sound is vocal centric with less weight given to orchestra........

We were discussing this here sometime ago comparing studio versions to live Bayreuth versions and once you get used to live Bayreuth sound the massive orchestra surges of a studio recording seem almost un-natural and overwhelming.

To answer you original question Rose did not let us down, the Pristine XR 53 Krauss Walkure sounds much better than any other version available......


----------



## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> I* would love a '54 Keilberth.* I have the Walkure but I've never seen the others. I have listened again to the '64 Parsifal. Kna's last and one of his best and a fitting tribute to the majestic Jon Vickers.












All three Wagner "allstar" women in the 54 Keilberth Ring Walkure, *Modl - Varnay - Nilsson

*


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> All three Wagner "allstar" women in the 54 Keilberth Ring Walkure, *Modl - Varnay - Nilsson
> 
> *


WOW..............................


----------



## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> All three Wagner "allstar" women in the 54 Keilberth Ring Walkure, *Modl - Varnay - Nilsson
> 
> *


In 1954 that would be Nilsson as Sieglinde - but who sings Fricka? Either Modl or Varnay could have done it.


----------



## DarkAngel

Woodduck said:


> In 1954 that would be Nilsson as Sieglinde - but who sings Fricka? Either Modl or Varnay could have done it.


The front cover is deceptive since Nilsson has one of the minor roles and Georgine Von MilinKovic (Fricka) doesn't has the same name recognition........those marketing guys doing their thing


----------



## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> The front cover is deceptive since Nilsson has one of the minor roles and Georgine Von MilinKovic (Fricka) doesn't has the same name recognition........those marketing guys doing their thing


Well shame on them.


----------



## Itullian

So, my Wagner friends, what Rings were recorded during the 50's?

52, 53, 55, 57, 58, 60?


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> Tully is so fast in responding to my post I didn't have time to proof read before he caught me with wrong date........


Nothing escapes the eagle eyes of a Wagner disciple!:wave:


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> So, my Wagner friends, what Rings were recorded during the 50's?
> 
> 52, 53, 55, 57, 58, 60?


Add the '56 under Kna and I think that's them all. There was, of course, no Ring performed in '59.


----------



## gardibolt

DarkAngel said:


> Now that I am home I compared my new Orfeo remaster ROTV compared to Pristine XR ambient stereo ROTV (ride of the Valkyries) and could easily hear an improvement with Pristine, increased clarity across the board. Because they are both mono and live Bayreuth you will not hear the thunderous powerful lower brass instruments/bass of the studio Solti for instance, the classic live Bayreuth sound is vocal centric with less weight given to orchestra........
> 
> We were discussing this here sometime ago comparing studio versions to live Bayreuth versions and once you get used to live Bayreuth sound the massive orchestra surges of a studio recording seem almost un-natural and overwhelming.
> 
> To answer you original question Rose did not let us down, the Pristine XR 53 Krauss Walkure sounds much better than any other version available......


OK, thanks. I figured that was the case but wanted to make sure it was just that the trombones are AWOL on every version. Very strange listening--like karaoke for trombones. On the 1950 Furtwängler La Scala that I've been listening to, they'd like to take your head off.


----------



## Bill H.

DarkAngel said:


> The front cover is deceptive since Nilsson has one of the minor roles and Georgine Von MilinKovic (Fricka) doesn't has the same name recognition........those marketing guys doing their thing


1954 was Nilsson's first year at Bayreuth, wasn't it? And she did get star billing (as Elsa) in the Lohengrin from that same year, conducted by Eugen Jochum.

I have that '54 Walküre, but only listened to it once so far. By that time Lorenz' voice was only approximating the correct pitch, and he made a hot mess of Act I (and the appropriate sections of Act II). Even Varnay's memoirs, while praising his supreme musicianship, were a bit more diplomatic IIRC about the accuracy of his performance.


----------



## Itullian

Barbebleu said:


> Add the '56 under Kna and I think that's them all. There was, of course, no Ring performed in '59.


Great. I have the '56.
What did you mean, "of course " for '59?
Did something happen that year?


----------



## Itullian




----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> Great. I have the '56.
> What did you mean, "of course " for '59?
> Did something happen that year?


1958 saw the last performance of Wieland Wagner's Ring productions and they decided to have a break before Wolfgang Wagner did his new production in 1960. The idea was well not received because Wagnerites do like their Ring cycles and they did not repeat the idea when the next new production took place in 1965 under Wieland again.


----------



## Barbebleu

Bill H. said:


> 1954 was Nilsson's first year at Bayreuth, wasn't it? And she did get star billing (as Elsa) in the Lohengrin from that same year, conducted by Eugen Jochum.
> 
> I have that '54 Walküre, but only listened to it once so far. By that time Lorenz' voice was only approximating the correct pitch, and he made a hot mess of Act I (and the appropriate sections of Act II). Even Varnay's memoirs, while praising his supreme musicianship, were a bit more diplomatic IIRC about the accuracy of his performance.


Birgit Nilsson made her debut in 1953 singing in Beethoven's Ninth Symphony which concluded that years festival. It was conducted by Paul Hindemith, with Ira Malaniuk, Anton Dermota and Ludwig Weber as the other soloists.


----------



## Barbebleu

I have been listening to Karajan's 1968 Rheingold from Salzburg. What a different creature Karajan was live. Great dramatic drive and of course the BPO play out of their skins. The cast is excellent but I have to single out DF-D who is a terrific Wotan, and Gerhard Stolze who sings, not shouts, the part of Loge and acts it equally well. Kelemen as Alberich and Wohlfart as Mime are superb. This is as good a Rheingold as you are likely to get with, probably, the last of the great casts with, in my opinion, no weak links at all. I think live, Karajan has not drained all the emotion out of it with multiple takes and cobbling together different phrases within takes as was sometimes the case with his studio recordings. This was the premiere of Karajan's Salzburg realisation of Rheingold having premiered Die Walkure the year before. Siegfried followed in '69 and Götterdämmerung in '70. I will report on these as I get to them. I also have the Walkure from '68 so I will give that a listen and come back on that too.


----------



## Itullian

Anyone familiar with this one?


----------



## Steatopygous

Itullian said:


> Anyone familiar with this one?


No, but a fine cast.


----------



## DavidA

Itullian said:


>


Had this but returned it. The Walther sounds as if he is bursting out of his pants with effort. Only valuable for Riddersbusch's Sachs but rest of it pretty unlistenable imo


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> Anyone familiar with this one?


Yes. It's very good. Cluytens was a very good Wagner conductor but probably not at his most inspired here. But Hotter is wonderful and the rest of the cast never less than good and the chorus is superb. This was Wieland's notorious "Meistersinger Ohne Nurnberg" production in which he virtually dispensed with scenery and had the town represented by abstract forms with the occasional realistic prop. Not to everyone's taste so nothing new there! Well worth having in your collection though.


----------



## DarkAngel

Less then 2 weeks for 53 Keilberth Ring release on Amazon USA, during this lull in buying frenzy I got a couple books on Bayreuth history (very cheap used Amazon sellers).....especially interested in the 1951-60 period when all these great singers we talk about and buy like madmen (and women) were creating these treasured performances

Who knows what I might learn, looking for books with pictures...any other suggestions?

















Some of the photos in the booklets from CD sets made me curious of what was being done back then......


----------



## DavidA

DarkAngel said:


> Less then 2 weeks for 53 Keilberth Ring release on Amazon USA, during this lull in buying frenzy I got a couple books on Bayreuth history (very cheap used Amazon sellers).....especially interested in the 1951-60 period when all these great singers we talk about and buy like madmen (and women) were creating these treasured performances
> 
> Who knows what I might learn, looking for books with pictures...any other suggestions?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some of the photos in the booklets from CD sets made me curious of what was being done back then......


Millington's book is OK although he does make some fairly tenuous arguments at times, almost trying to justify Wagner's anti-semitism. I read the one by Spotts some years ago - some great pictures as I remember. A very good history is 'The Wagner Clan' by Jonathan Carr. Deals with the whole history of the family (and Bayreuth) up to retirement of Wolfgang. A rattling good read.


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Less then 2 weeks for 53 Keilberth Ring release on Amazon USA, during this lull in buying frenzy I got a couple books on Bayreuth history (very cheap used Amazon sellers).....especially interested in the 1951-60 period when all these great singers we talk about and buy like madmen (and women) were creating these treasured performances
> 
> Who knows what I might learn, looking for books with pictures...any other suggestions?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some of the photos in the booklets from CD sets made me curious of what was being done back then......


Look great DA. I'll have to check them out? :tiphat:


----------



## DarkAngel

DavidA said:


> Millington's book is OK although he does make some fairly tenuous arguments at times, almost trying to justify Wagner's anti-semitism. I read the one by Spotts some years ago -* some great pictures as I remember*. A very good history is 'The Wagner Clan' by Jonathan Carr. Deals with the whole history of the family (and Bayreuth) up to retirement of Wolfgang. A rattling good read.


*
Pictures, Pictures, Pictures........more is better, bigger is better!*
I did also see that "wagner clan" book you referred to.......

Also yesterday quickly watched the "wagner" movie with Richard Burton on youtube, the price for the actual DVD at Amazon USA is insane. Worth a view for free.......7.5 hrs long


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> *
> Pictures, Pictures, Pictures........more is better, bigger is better!*
> I did also see that "wagner clan" book you referred to.......
> 
> Also yesterday quickly watched the "wagner" movie with Richard Burton on youtube, the price for the actual DVD at Amazon USA is insane. Worth a view for free.......7.5 hrs long


I watched that recently myself and thought it was pretty good.


----------



## Bill H.

Itullian said:


> Anyone familiar with this one?


I've heard snippets of it, the transfer I got was horrendously bad, as if the tape was damaged. I finally gave up on it, so I can't really speak to the quality of the performance per se, but it is a tantalizing one with Windgassen as Stolzing and Hotter as Sachs.

However, the Cluytens from the following year might be a reasonable bet. Certainly acceptable sound, and with Grümmer as Eva coming off her recording with Kempe, and Neidlinger as Sachs--quite a change from his usual performances as Alberich in the Ring.


----------



## Itullian

Here's a real treat for you DA. 55 movie biography of RW.
Very good for the time.


----------



## Itullian

DavidA said:


> Had this but returned it. The Walther sounds as if he is bursting out of his pants with effort. Only valuable for Riddersbusch's Sachs but rest of it pretty unlistenable imo


Yes, Cox is a little strained at times, but I rather like his voice.
With outstanding stereo sound and Ridderbusch, I enjoyed it.


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> Less then 2 weeks for 53 Keilberth Ring release on Amazon USA, during this lull in buying frenzy I got a couple books on Bayreuth history (very cheap used Amazon sellers).....especially interested in the 1951-60 period when all these great singers we talk about and buy like madmen (and women) were creating these treasured performances
> 
> Who knows what I might learn, looking for books with pictures...any other suggestions?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some of the photos in the booklets from CD sets made me curious of what was being done back then......


The Spotts is very good. You might want to have a look for The Dream King by Wilfred Blunt which looks at Wagners's relationship with Ludwig II of Bavaria who bankrolled Wagner for a fairly significant period in his career. Also, although it doesn't have pictures, but is a fascinating read, Ernest Newman's Wagner Nights which looks at each opera in considerable depth. Newman was a renowned Wagner scholar and critic who was a regular visitor to Bayreuth. Also Penelope Turing's New Bayreuth which concentrates on Bayreuth from its reopening in 1951 to her last year as a critic in 1970. This has some terrific pictures, albeit in black and white. I'll put some pictures of the covers up tomorrow.


----------



## Barbebleu

DavidA said:


> Millington's book is OK although he does make some fairly tenuous arguments at times, almost trying to justify Wagner's anti-semitism. I read the one by Spotts some years ago - some great pictures as I remember. A very good history is 'The Wagner Clan' by Jonathan Carr. Deals with the whole history of the family (and Bayreuth) up to retirement of Wolfgang. A rattling good read.


The Wagner Clan is good and doesn't spare the family at all. Also worth a read is The Wagners - The Dramas of a Musical Dynasty by Nike Wagner and the Wagner Companion edited by Burbidge and Sutton. If you have time to spare the two volume Diaries of Cosima Wagner and The four volume Life of Richard Wagner by Ernest Newman are essential reading to get a deeper understanding of the man and his place in society then and now. I'll put some pictures of the covers up tomorrow.


----------



## Barbebleu

Bill H. said:


> I've heard snippets of it, the transfer I got was horrendously bad, as if the tape was damaged. I finally gave up on it, so I can't really speak to the quality of the performance per se, but it is a tantalizing one with Windgassen as Stolzing and Hotter as Sachs.
> 
> However, the Cluytens from the following year might be a reasonable bet. Certainly acceptable sound, and with Grümmer as Eva coming off her recording with Kempe, and Neidlinger as Sachs--quite a change from his usual performances as Alberich in the Ring.


I think you must have been unlucky with your copy Bill H. Mine, while not absolutely "pristine" heh, heh, is very listenable. A little compressed in the fortes but tolerable.


----------



## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> The Spotts is very good. You might want to have a look for The Dream King by Wilfred Blunt which looks at Wagners's relationship with Ludwig II of Bavaria who bankrolled Wagner for a fairly significant period in his career. Also, although it doesn't have pictures, but is a fascinating read, Ernest Newman's Wagner Nights which looks at each opera in considerable depth. Newman was a renowned Wagner scholar and critic who was a regular visitor to Bayreuth. *Also Penelope Turing's New Bayreuth which concentrates on Bayreuth from its reopening in 1951 to her last year as a critic in 1970*. This has some terrific pictures, albeit in black and white. I'll put some pictures of the covers up tomorrow.


I wanted to buy that book but the price is insane at Amazon USA, so I passed.......
Looks like just what I am looking for










Slightly off topic but while searching I purchased this cheap used at Amazon, three used books that have many pictures of MET broadcasts from 1966-77 and the older sessions 19331-50 and 1950-66.......*some wagner in there for sure*


----------



## DarkAngel

vs 

Itullian gave me some homework to do, compare the 1967 stereo Kubelik to the 1956 mono Kempe (I am using the remastered Pristine XR version)

The effusive praise heaped on the Kubelik at Amazon reviews seems to make it the defacto king of Meistersingers, but not so fast. All the great golden age singers of 1950s Bayreuth have now mostly retired and this recording features a new generation of singers. Konya is a holdover from those days and still sounds great as Walther, all the singers here are very good with no obvious weak spot. The stereo sound is really great, richly detailed and realistic.....during the crowd scences of the prize song I felt like I was part of the ensemble with people on all sides completely filling my room, very impressive and thrilling effect. A very strong overall package that does not let you down

I will not argue with anyone who says this is the best *stereo* Meister, however......

I do prefer the singers overall on the Kempe, contrary to some reviews I have read. Grummer (in prime voice) is the best Eva ever and for Sachs I like Frantz better than Stewart, many really love Stewart but he never really seemed extraordinary to me Frantz has a more animated believable vocal characterization for me, Frantz and Grummer have nice chemistry during their scences. Schock would seem a real underdog to Konya for Walther but he continues to surprise me with his vocal diversity and tonal beauty, a very deep cast also with Frick, Neidlinger, Kusche, Prey etc. The standard Kempe EMI set is OOP so you must pay insane used price or even better buy Pristine XR remaster (with ambient stereo)

So to sum up I think there are a few Meisters with better/equal singing talent overall with good 1950s mono sound, but hard to overcome the advantage of room filling stereo sound during the prize song final scence a nice advantage for the Kubelik, For long time I refused to pay the insane price Kubelik Meister gets, but I finally caved in.........


----------



## Bill H.

Barbebleu said:


> I think you must have been unlucky with your copy Bill H. Mine, while not absolutely "pristine" heh, heh, is very listenable. A little compressed in the fortes but tolerable.


I probably was unlucky--my copy was a digital file sent to me by someone who asked if I could do anything to make it sound better--I had to reply that my skills simply weren't up to such a task.


----------



## Bill H.

DarkAngel said:


> vs
> 
> Itullian gave me some homework to do, compare the 1967 stereo Kubelik to the 1956 mono Kempe (I am using the remasteredd Pristine XR version)
> 
> The effusive praise heaped on the Kubelik at Amazon reviews seems to make it the defacto king of Meistersingers, but not so fast. All the great golden age singers of 1950s Bayreuth have now mostly retired and this recording features a new generation of singers. Konya is a holdover from those days and still sounds great as Walther, all the singers here are very good with no obvious weak spot. The stereo sound is really great, richly detailed and realistic.....during the crowd scences of the prize song I felt like I was part of the ensemble with people on all sides completely filling my room, very impressive and thrilling effect. A very strong overall package that does not let you down
> 
> I will not argue with anyone who says this is the best *stereo* Meister, however......
> 
> I do prefer the singers overall on the Kempe, contrary to some reviews I have read. Grummer is the best Eva and for Sachs I like Frantz better than Stewart, many really love Stewart but he never really seemed extraordinary to me Frantz has a more animated believable vocal characterization for me, Frantz and Grummer have nice chemistry during their scences. Schock would seem a real underdog to Konya for Walther but he continues to surprise me with his vocal diversity and tonal beauty, a very deep cast also with Frick, Neidlinger, Kusche, Prey etc. The standard Kempe EMI set is OOP so you must pay insane used price or even better buy Pristine XR remaster (with ambient stereo)
> 
> So to sum up I think there are a few Meisters with better singing talent overall with good 1950s mono sound, but hard to overcome the advantage of room filling stereo sound during the prize song final scence a nice advantage for the Kubelik, For long time I refused to pay the insane price Kubelik Meister gets, but I finally caved in.........


Nice summation. My thoughts are pretty much in line with yours--Kubelik's the best of the stereo versions (why wasn't he engaged to do more Wagner?) but I was imprinted on the Kempe, and can't get away from it.


----------



## Itullian

That Kempe haunts me constantly. One day..............

You want your room filled with sound?
Fire up the Solti.


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> vs
> 
> Itullian gave me some homework to do, compare the 1967 stereo Kubelik to the 1956 mono Kempe (I am using the remastered Pristine XR version)
> 
> The effusive praise heaped on the Kubelik at Amazon reviews seems to make it the defacto king of Meistersingers, but not so fast. All the great golden age singers of 1950s Bayreuth have now mostly retired and this recording features a new generation of singers. Konya is a holdover from those days and still sounds great as Walther, all the singers here are very good with no obvious weak spot. The stereo sound is really great, richly detailed and realistic.....during the crowd scences of the prize song I felt like I was part of the ensemble with people on all sides completely filling my room, very impressive and thrilling effect. A very strong overall package that does not let you down
> 
> I will not argue with anyone who says this is the best *stereo* Meister, however......
> 
> I do prefer the singers overall on the Kempe, contrary to some reviews I have read. Grummer (in prime voice) is the best Eva ever and for Sachs I like Frantz better than Stewart, many really love Stewart but he never really seemed extraordinary to me Frantz has a more animated believable vocal characterization for me, Frantz and Grummer have nice chemistry during their scences. Schock would seem a real underdog to Konya for Walther but he continues to surprise me with his vocal diversity and tonal beauty, a very deep cast also with Frick, Neidlinger, Kusche, Prey etc. The standard Kempe EMI set is OOP so you must pay insane used price or even better buy Pristine XR remaster (with ambient stereo)
> 
> So to sum up I think there are a few Meisters with better/equal singing talent overall with good 1950s mono sound, but hard to overcome the advantage of room filling stereo sound during the prize song final scence a nice advantage for the Kubelik, For long time I refused to pay the insane price Kubelik Meister gets, but I finally caved in.........


Thanks for the great reviews DA. :tiphat:


----------



## Celloman

DarkAngel said:


>


Hey, I just listened to this recording for the first time today. I got it from Amazon a couple of days ago.

It was amazing! I was impressed with all of the leads, generally, and the Kubelik "touch" just works for this opera. I will have to give the Kempe a try the next time I get around to it.


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> I wanted to buy that book but the price is insane at Amazon USA, so I passed.......
> Looks like just what I am looking for
> 
> Slightly off topic but while searching I purchased this cheap used at Amazon, three used books that have many pictures of MET broadcasts from 1966-77 and the older sessions 19331-50 and 1950-66.......*some wagner in there for sure*
> 
> Some pictures of the books I was referring to plus some highlights from my vinyl and cds. The book with the damaged cover is The Wagner Companion by Burridge.


----------



## Barbebleu

Was Kubelik on the DG roster? If so he would have been playing a very clear second fiddle to Herr Karajan who would keep the juicy Wagner stuff for himself. From a marketing point of view why would they release anything by Kubelik in competition to their star attraction.


----------



## DavidA

Barbebleu said:


> Was Kubelik on the DG roster? If so he would have been playing a very clear second fiddle to Herr Karajan who would keep the juicy Wagner stuff for himself. From a marketing point of view why would they release anything by Kubelik in competition to their star attraction.


Kubelik was on the DG roster but Karajan's Mastersingers was made with EMI. DG made theirs with Jochum with D F-D. The Kubelik was actually recorded by Bavarian Radio.


----------



## gardibolt

Listening to the 1953 Krauss Walküre right now; Greindl's Hunding is pretty incredible here. For some reason he's come across as little more than serviceable in the other recordings I've heard him do the part, but he's _really_ threatening here. Chilling.


----------



## Barbebleu

So it was. I was just meaning that DG would be reluctant to release anything in opposition to Karajan if he felt that it was a real threat to him.


----------



## Itullian

I think it was DFD that caused them to hold back the Kubelik Meister, no?


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> I think it was DFD that caused them to hold back the Kubelik Meister, no?


Didn't know that. Why?


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> *Listening to the 1953 Krauss Walküre right now; Greindl's Hunding is pretty incredible here.* For some reason he's come across as little more than serviceable in the other recordings I've heard him do the part, but he's _really_ threatening here. Chilling.


*1953 what a year for Bayreuth Rings......*

Knap takes a break and Clemens Krauss gets the call, Keilberth gets the 2nd Ring assignment for that season, great great singers in freshest voice.....Hotter, Varnay, Modl, Windgassen, Neidlinger, Vinay, Uhde, Greindl, Resnik, Kuen etc

Is that your Pristine XR download?


----------



## gardibolt

Yes. The mono sounds very good even without the Ambient Stereo treatment.


----------



## Itullian

Barbebleu said:


> Didn't know that. Why?


From what I read, DFD thought it would be competition for his recording.


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> From what I read, DFD thought it would be competition for his recording.


It goes to show the power of artists with clout. D F-D was in solid with DG because of the number and quality of his recordings for that label. Not that I'm complaining. I love his Schubert cycles and his Mahler.


----------



## DarkAngel

The mighty Valkyre sisterhood...........we bow before them


----------



## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> The mighty Valkyre sisterhood...........we bow before them


And to think that it's been nearly forty years since the last of them set Valhalla alight.

I'm gettin' old waitin' ...


----------



## DarkAngel

Woodduck said:


> And to think that it's been nearly forty years since the last of them set Valhalla alight.
> 
> I'm gettin' old waitin' ...


The waiting will unfortunately continue.....

That's why Itullian started this thread so we can share memories of those glory days when these great singers lit up the stages with unforgettable performances......anyone wanting to hear wagner singing like that today will be waiting a long long time


----------



## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> The waiting will unfortunately continue.....
> 
> That's why Itullian started this thread so we can share memories of those glory days when these great singers lit up the stages with unforgettable performances......anyone wanting to hear wagner singing like that today will be waiting a long long time


I hate to "like" that message, but...

You're doing good service. I thank you. Wagner thanks you. Kirsten, Astrid, and Birgit thank you.

Right, girls?

(They say "Right!" :angel


----------



## Barbebleu

B


DarkAngel said:


> The mighty Valkyre sisterhood...........we bow before them


They do look the business, don't they. Particularly Astrid!


----------



## Woodduck

Barbebleu said:


> They do look the business, don't they. Particularly Astrid!


If Siegfried had removed the breastplate from _her_ on the mountaintop I suspect he'd have said something other than "Das ist kein Mann!" Something more like "how many dragons are in this tetralogy?" or "where the hell is that bird when I need it?"

Kirsten, on the other hand... She once said that she was "the least-kissed girl in Norway." It could only have been shyness or modesty keeping the little Vikings at bay.


----------



## DarkAngel

*Great words of wisdom from Jess Thomas* about singing Wagner tenor roles and being a successful singer, when this man speaks wagner fans should listen, one of the great ones.


----------



## DavidA

Barbebleu said:


> It goes to show the power of artists with clout. D F-D was in solid with DG because of the number and quality of his recordings for that label. Not that I'm complaining. I love his Schubert cycles and his Mahler.


The problem with the D F-D explanation is one of chronology. Kubelík's recording was made and withheld in 1967 (or, given the October date, 1968); Fischer-Dieskau didn't record the rôle until 1976 under Jochum. I understand the costs associated with making and marketing records, to say nothing of recording them, makes it untenable to turn out one after another, but nine years? That seems like a pretty good non-compete time period, especially with the star power in the later record. I don't know. It seems complicated and slightly mysterious. Obviously, Kubelík wasn't too interested in clearing things up, which makes it more of a mystery - as he was one of the few people in a position to do so. The Karajan explanation is also untenable as he recorded his for EMI.


----------



## Barbebleu

Juju


DavidA said:


> The problem with the D F-D explanation is one of chronology. Kubelík's recording was made and withheld in 1967 (or, given the October date, 1968); Fischer-Dieskau didn't record the rôle until 1976 under Jochum. I understand the costs associated with making and marketing records, to say nothing of recording them, makes it untenable to turn out one after another, but nine years? That seems like a pretty good non-compete time period, especially with the star power in the later record. I don't know. It seems complicated and slightly mysterious. Obviously, Kubelík wasn't too interested in clearing things up, which makes it more of a mystery - as he was one of the few people in a position to do so. The Karajan explanation is also untenable as he recorded his for EMI.


With Karajan I was meaning in general and not Meistersinger specifically, otherwise I concur.


----------



## DavidA

Barbebleu said:


> Juju
> 
> With Karajan I was meaning in general and not Meistersinger specifically, otherwise I concur.


Kubelik was recorded by Bavarian Radio not DG though.


----------



## Barbebleu

DavidA said:


> Kubelik was recorded by Bavarian Radio not DG though.


What label was it released on? I have it on download so no details.


----------



## gardibolt

My copy is on Arts.


----------



## Barbebleu

gardibolt said:


> My copy is on Arts.


Aah. That explains my misunderstanding. I assumed because it was Kubelik it was on DG. Thanks for that.


----------



## DarkAngel

Must find a way to get this recently released 1965 live Bohm Lohengrin with the great Jess Thomas.....
What a great cast, very pricey so must be clever to get good price, eventually it will be mine!

Note this is not a Bayreuth performance, from Vienna opera archives

Orfeo has many great wagner live releases, but oh so expensive 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Looks like this was previously released on Golden Melodram and now selling for the usual insane price used


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Must find a way to get this recently released 1965 live Bohm Lohengrin with the great Jess Thomas.....
> What a great cast, very pricey so must be clever to get good price, eventually it will be mine!
> 
> Note this is not a Bayreuth performance, from Vienna opera archives
> 
> Orfeo has many great wagner live releases, but oh so expensive
> 
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> 
> Looks like this was previously released on Golden Melodram and now selling for the usual insane price used


Looks great. I think I read that it is cut though. I'll check.
If that matters.


----------



## Steatopygous

Right, I'm ready! I've got a notepad with pages set aside for each Wagner opera, and I'm going to go through all 57 pages, noting the recommendations that I don't already own, then getting on to Amazon, Import CDs etc (for some of them at least). What a pleasurable project.


----------



## Itullian

Itullian said:


> Looks great. I think I read that it is cut though. I'll check.
> If that matters.


"*It must be said straight away that there are cuts aplenty*..., that the radio sound is not great to begin with and that interventionist remastering has not helped. If you are allergic to all that and to generous portions of stage noise...look elsewhere. If you aren't this might be the most thrilling performance of the opera yet put on disc." Gramophone Magazine, September 2013


----------



## Steatopygous

Interrupted by postman bearing much-antiicpated Fricsay vol 2 (37 CDs of opera). This includes a Dutchman with Greindl, Kupper, Windgassen, Metternich, Haefliger and Sieglinde Wagner. This may be mentioned above, but does anyone know anything about this version?


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> "*It must be said straight away that there are cuts aplenty*..., that the radio sound is not great to begin with and that interventionist remastering has not helped. If you are allergic to all that and to generous portions of stage noise...look elsewhere. If you aren't *this might be the most thrilling performance of the opera yet put on disc*." Gramophone Magazine, September 2013


I found a few sound samples at JPC Germany, sound is not great (like Knappy 57, 58 Bayreuth Rings) but good enough for me! Youtube yields no results for samples, spotify almost never has Orfeo releases

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/de...rry-Talvela-WPO-B%F6hm-Lohengrin/hnum/3565199


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> I found a few sound samples at JPC Germany, sound is not great (like Knappy 57, 58 Bayreuth Rings) but good enough for me! Youtube yields no results for samples, spotify almost never has Orfeo releases
> 
> https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/de...rry-Talvela-WPO-B%F6hm-Lohengrin/hnum/3565199


It'll have to go some to beat the live Sawallisch with Thomas.


----------



## DarkAngel

Steatopygous said:


> Interrupted by postman bearing much-antiicpated Fricsay vol 2 (37 CDs of opera). This includes a Dutchman with Greindl, Kupper, Windgassen, Metternich, Haefliger and Sieglinde Wagner. This may be mentioned above, but does anyone know anything about this version?


No help for Fricsay version, but two cheap 1950s live Dutchman version that are really stellar and cheap - 59 Sawallisch, 55 knappy

















We are very good here at spending other peoples money.........


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> I found a few sound samples at JPC Germany, sound is not great (like Knappy 57, 58 Bayreuth Rings) but good enough for me! Youtube yields no results for samples, spotify almost never has Orfeo releases
> 
> https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/de...rry-Talvela-WPO-B%F6hm-Lohengrin/hnum/3565199


Hi DA. Look on YouTube and search under Lohengrin 1965 and it will appear. I have this and the sound is acceptable if not wonderful. The performance on the other hand _is_ wonderful.


----------



## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> Hi DA. Look on YouTube and search under Lohengrin 1965 and it will appear. I have this and the sound is acceptable if not wonderful. The performance on the other hand _is_ wonderful.







Skip to 3:00 to begin the story of the swan knight "in fernem land" I wonder if the latest Orfeo might have better sound since samples at JPC Germany sound a little better.....


----------



## gardibolt

Barbebleu said:


> Aah. That explains my misunderstanding. I assumed because it was Kubelik it was on DG. Thanks for that.


This is the one I have on Arts:


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> Skip to 3:00 to begin the story of the swan knight "in fernem land" I wonder if the latest Orfeo might have better sound since samples at JPC Germany sound a little better.....


YouTube certainly won't give you the best sound you'll ever hear and Orfeo are usually pretty good. I suppose it depends on your level of desperation to have this particular recording. If I didn't already have it I wouldn't be going mad to get it, although I'm pleased that I have it. How's that for having my cake and eating it!!


----------



## Barbebleu

Anyone else noticed the signatures have disappeared.


----------



## Barbebleu

Just spotted two more Meistersingers on Amazon, neither of which I have. Milan 1955 conducted by Hans Rosbaud with most of the Bayreuth 1951 cast and one from Berlin 1955 conducted by Konwitschny.


----------



## Itullian

Going thru this cycle in anticipation of the '53.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Going thru this cycle in anticipation of the '53.


  

The 1952 Keilberth Ring is too good to be true, the first complete Bayreuth Ring we can get under same conductor after 1951 re-opening. Good sound and cheap price, the 52 Walkure with young Hotter and Varnay is a candidate for best I have heard, I absolutely love it.......


----------



## Clayton

Wagner: Der Ring des Nibelungen
Live recording [mono] Bayreuth 25-27, 29 July 1953









This is superlative and I can highly recommend it; all voices are outstanding.


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> The 1952 Keilberth Ring is too good to be true, the first complete Bayreuth Ring we can get under same conductor after 1951 re-opening. Good sound and cheap price, the 52 Walkure with young Hotter and Varnay is a candidate for best I have heard, I absolutely love it.......


Yes, and I love the way Keilberth slows down for the Magic Fire music.


----------



## DarkAngel

Clayton said:


> Wagner: Der Ring des Nibelungen
> Live recording [mono] Bayreuth 25-27, 29 July 1953
> 
> View attachment 72833
> 
> 
> This is superlative and I can highly recommend it; all voices are outstanding.


Are you happy with the sound quality?

I have no doubt looking at cast list and owning 52,55 Keilberth Rings that the performances will be great......

*Price Update*
Presto UK has sale price, now $38.76


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Are you happy with the sound quality?
> 
> I have no doubt looking at cast list and owning 52,55 Keilberth Rings that the performances will be great......
> 
> *Price Update*
> Presto UK has sale price, now $38.76


Was just gonna post that.
I wonder if Amazon USA sellers will top that?


----------



## Clayton

DarkAngel said:


> Are you happy with the sound quality?
> 
> I have no doubt looking at cast list and owning 52,55 Keilberth Rings that the performances will be great......
> 
> *Price Update*
> Presto UK has sale price, now $38.76


I am very happy with sound quality; listened to about half through the speakers and the rest through the sennheisers. No bad noise heard at all, just beautiful sounds. Surprisingly there are no notes about remastering as I am guessing there must have been some significant work done to have this quality of sound.
There is a bit of change with sound levels according to the wife who runs away to the upstairs but I can't notice it that much (except for her complaints) and there are some parts where I think a little may have been lost (though I don't know if that is simply the age of the recording or engineering for noise reduction) but not a lot.
The sound quality balanced with the performance makes this the recording to have; though I have only the Böhm and the Solti at the moment (Pristine Krauss '53 not yet received).
A bargain at the prices stated!


----------



## DarkAngel

Clayton said:


> I am very happy with sound quality; listened to about half through the speakers and the rest through the sennheisers. No bad noise heard at all, just beautiful sounds. Surprisingly there are no notes about remastering as I am guessing there must have been some significant work done to have this quality of sound.
> There is a bit of change with sound levels according to the wife who runs away to the upstairs but I can't notice it that much (except for her complaints) and there are some parts where I think a little may have been lost (though I don't know if that is simply the age of the recording or engineering for noise reduction) but not a lot.
> The sound quality balanced with the performance makes this the recording to have; though I have only the Böhm and the Solti at the moment* (Pristine Krauss '53 not yet received).*
> A bargain at the prices stated!


Should we assume that that the order has been placed with Pristine XR for 53 Krauss.....what will the wife say? :lol:


----------



## Itullian

Anyone know if these are the same?


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> Anyone know if these are the same?


Not the same. Rysanek did not sing in Hollander in Bayreuth 1961. Silja sang every performance.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Anyone know if these are the same?


Barbie is correct not the same performance.......

The Myto is 1959 Bayreuth performance with *Rysanek as Senta*, a really great performance with very good sound


----------



## Itullian

This one today. I really enjoy Aldenhoff here. What a cast!!! 
Great sound too.

*What a treasure these releases are!!!!*


----------



## Barbebleu

B


Itullian said:


> This one today. I really enjoy Aldenhoff here. What a cast!!!
> Great sound too.
> 
> *What a treasure these releases are!!!!*


Couldn't agree more. We are very fortunate that this stuff was preserved for posterity and we are reaping the benefit at very little cost in today's terms.
Just acquired two more ring cycles today. Bayreuth '73 & '75 conducted by Stein. Will report when I get around to hearing them!! The gods alone know when that will be. I'm so far behind in my listening. So much music, so little time.


----------



## Itullian

Got me thinking.
Who thought to record these performances?
I wonder if they ever thought what treasures they would be.


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> Got me thinking.
> Who thought to record these performances?
> I wonder if they ever thought what treasures they would be.


Good question. Doesn't appear that commercial considerations were the driving force otherwise they would surely have been released in their own time period.


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> Barbie is correct not the same performance.......
> 
> The Myto is 1959 Bayreuth performance with *Rysanek as Senta*, a really great performance with very good sound


DA is right. Either the 22nd, 29th of July or 2nd August. Those were the only dates that George London sang The Hollander on.


----------



## Itullian

Barbebleu said:


> B
> 
> Couldn't agree more. We are very fortunate that this stuff was preserved for posterity and we are reaping the benefit at very little cost in today's terms.
> Just acquired two more ring cycles today. Bayreuth '73 & '75 conducted by Stein. Will report when I get around to hearing them!! The gods alone know when that will be. I'm so far behind in my listening. So much music, so little time.


Do you have the Moralt Ring?


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> Do you have the Moralt Ring?


Yes I do. It's in the listening pile.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> This one today. I really enjoy Aldenhoff here. What a cast!!!
> Great sound too.
> 
> *What a treasure these releases are!!!!*


When I purchased the first Myto release from this 52 Ring I wasn't expecting much for sound quality, especially after hearing the opera d oro 53 Krauss Ring sound, but it turned out to be much better than I ever hoped so I instantly ordered the complete Myto set......it is an essential document of the great 50s Bayreuth singers in freshest voice especially Hotter and Varnay, the fact that the price is cheap only adds to the great gift these are.......

*Only a few more days* till Amazon USA sellers release the 53 Keilberth set, I will predict $35-39 from importcds.com

Did you know that if importcds lists item on Ebay website ( get_importcds ) it has free shipping? Slow shipping but it is free


----------



## Barbebleu

The Moralt Ring is on the lengthy list of things to be listened to. I have a Bernstein Mahler box that has barely been touched. I have listened to the 1st Symphony and I have had the box for about nine months. I have The Rise and Fall of Paramount Records Volumes 1 & 2 to get to some time. Not to mention Led Zeppelin, Grateful Dead usw stuff. The road goes ever on!!


----------



## Itullian

Barbebleu said:


> The Moralt Ring is on the lengthy list of things to be listened to. I have a Bernstein Mahler box that has barely been touched. I have listened to the 1st Symphony and I have had the box for about nine months. I have The Rise and Fall of Paramount Records Volumes 1 & 2 to get to some time. Not to mention Led Zeppelin, Grateful Dead usw stuff. The road goes ever on!!


From what I heard on youtube the sound was not very good.


----------



## Itullian

Finishing up the '52 cycle today. 
Ready for '53.


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> From what I heard on youtube the sound was not very good.


I'll dip into it and let you know what my copy is like.


----------



## Barbebleu

Listening at the moment to Walkure from Salzburg 1967 with Jon Vickers in sparkling form as Siegmund, Gundula Janowitz as Sieglinde and Regine Crespin as Brunnhilde. Karajan conducting and less smooth but more exciting than in the studio.


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> When I purchased the first Myto release from this 52 Ring I wasn't expecting much for sound quality, especially after hearing the opera d oro 53 Krauss Ring sound, but it turned out to be much better than I ever hoped so I instantly ordered the complete Myto set......it is an essential document of the great 50s Bayreuth singers in freshest voice especially Hotter and Varnay, the fact that the price is cheap only adds to the great gift these are.......
> 
> *Only a few more days* till Amazon USA sellers release the 53 Keilberth set, I will predict $35-39 from importcds.com
> 
> Did you know that if importcds lists item on Ebay website ( get_importcds ) it has free shipping? Slow shipping but it is free


Stupid importcds charges me tax.
And then ships from NC.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Stupid importcds charges me tax.
> And then ships from NC.


Can't beat the system, gotta pay the man.......:lol:

It could be worse, Barbie and Clayton from UK have huge VAT fees to pay


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Can't beat the system, gotta pay the man.......:lol:
> 
> It could be worse, Barbie and Clayton from UK have huge VAT fees to pay


They say they're in Cali, but ship from NC. 

I order from Classical Music Superstore if the price is close.


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> Can't beat the system, gotta pay the man.......:lol:
> 
> It could be worse, Barbie and Clayton from UK have huge VAT fees to pay


Yes. A mere 20%!! Oh joy!?

And if we import from abroad we get hammered for duty if the value of the item is above £16 then the postal service stick it to us with an admin charge for processing the duty!! I bought CDs a couple of years back and wasn't aware of the limit. The CDs were about £20 and the total cost at my end was £50.


----------



## Clayton

DarkAngel said:


> Can't beat the system, gotta pay the man.......:lol:
> 
> It could be worse, Barbie and Clayton from UK have huge VAT fees to pay


Consumer tax I'm not too bothered about

the item going on sale

the week

after

I paid full price

now THAT hurts!


----------



## Clayton

DarkAngel said:


> Should we assume that that the order has been placed with Pristine XR for 53 Krauss.....what will the wife say? :lol:


I was just aiming for the Götterdämmerung recording... but misfired and clumsy trigger finger on the buy button managed to cover the whole ring...

The wife says I'm an idiot but I'm used to that.


----------



## The Conte

Clayton said:


> I was just aiming for the Götterdämmerung recording... but misfired and clumsy trigger finger on the buy button managed to cover the whole ring...
> 
> The wife says I'm an idiot but I'm used to that.


Dang, why didn't I think of that one! "Of course I haven't ordered any more Callas recordings, darling, my finger just slipped..."

N.


----------



## Clayton

Hah!

Pristine shipped today!

So maybe one more week until Krauss '53 set arrives...

THE most expensive opera recording ever purchased

not including the Walton Troilus and Cressida that for GBP 20 went straight into the round filing cabinet after act 1

(not really, it just got put to the back of the tea cabinet)


----------



## Itullian

Why doesn't Amazon USA list release date anymore?


----------



## DarkAngel

I have been considering this Naxos Historical Ring boxset comprised of all MET recordings 1936-41, but two of these operas were included in recent Wagner boxset below, so I am only getting two new operas I don't already own. Price is low but I would never listen to them on a regular basis because of compromised sound, just for reference purposes........if I did buy this *duck would be impressed *since I could name drop Melchior, Schorr, Traubel etc











> Why doesn't Amazon USA list release date anymore?


Still showing $49.99 - July 31 release


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> I have been considering this Naxos Historical Ring boxset comprised of all MET recordings 1936-41, but two of these operas were included in recent Wagner boxset below, so I am only getting two new operas I don't already own. Price is low but I would never listen to them on a regular basis because of compromised sound, just for reference purposes........if I did buy this *duck would be impressed *since I could name drop Melchior, Schorr, Traubel etc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Still showing $49.99 - July 31 release


Thanks DA. No date when I go there.

I have considered that Met box too and held off for same reason.


----------



## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> I have been considering this Naxos Historical Ring boxset comprised of all MET recordings 1936-41, but two of these operas were included in recent Wagner boxset below, so I am only getting two new operas I don't already own. Price is low but I would never listen to them on a regular basis because of compromised sound, just for reference purposes........if I did buy this *duck would be impressed *since I could name drop Melchior, Schorr, Traubel etc


It takes more than that to impress me.

And now I'm having you banned for baiting.

:angel:


----------



## Steatopygous

I say, slow down. This thread is growing faster than I can catch up through it. Blasted work. Work is the curse of the drinking classes, as Woodduck and my favourite philosopher has opined.


----------



## Steatopygous

I'm up to page 27, and have noted 59 sets so far. But I had to interrupt my reading to order the Wagner's Vision set of 11 operas and 50 CDs. Looks terrific. $49 plus postage from a British supplier through Amazon.


----------



## DarkAngel

Steatopygous said:


> I'm up to page 27, and have noted 59 sets so far. But I had to interrupt my reading to order the Wagner's Vision set of 11 operas and 50 CDs. Looks terrific. $49 plus postage from a British supplier through Amazon.


That is really great way to learn about the very best 1950's Bayreuth Wagner performances.......


----------



## gardibolt

That does look like an intriguing package. Anyone have opinions on the sound quality?


----------



## DavidA

DarkAngel said:


> That is really great way to learn about the very best 1950's Bayreuth Wagner performances.......


The Bayreuth recordings are pretty variable. One problem with the venue is that is appears to give a very 'flat' sound, as on Bohm's Tristan.


----------



## Itullian

I love my 50s and 60s Bayreuth recordings.
And think they sound great.


----------



## Itullian

Countdown time 

3 days to K '53. :guitar:


----------



## howlingfantods

Itullian said:


> Countdown time
> 
> 3 days to K '53. :guitar:


Nice. That cycle grows on me more every time I listen to it.

Ok, so I only checked the first few pages of this thread, but I didn't see the Bruno Walter/Bruno Seidler-Winkler Acts 1 and 2 of Walkure listed. I've had the standalone Act 1 forever, but only recently picked up the completion of Act 2 (with Walter on Scenes 3 and 5 of act 2 I believe): http://www.amazon.com/Die-Walkure-Richard-Classical-Wagner/dp/B0000AE7BM

It's pretty awesome--The justly famous Melchior/Lehmann pairing as the twins, plus you get to hear Hans Hotter as a baby-faced 26 year old doing his earliest recorded Wotan. Marta Fuchs, who I hadn't heard before, is excellent as Brunnhilde in Scenes 2 and 4. Margaret Klose in a fine performance as Fricka.

Exciting, dramatic interpretations along similar lines as Krauss and Bohm, not the breathless sprints that you get from Bodanzky and Leinsdorf pre-war. If only Walter or Seidler-Winkler had been able to complete Act 3 with the young Hotter and Fuchs, with a Lehmann Hehrste Wunder...


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> I love my 50s and 60s Bayreuth recordings.
> And think they sound great.


Yep. And there are some good ones from the early to mid 70's as well. The Boulez/Chereau Ring from '76 is great. Much better than the one from 1980 that got released.


----------



## Itullian

I want the Stiedry Ring.


----------



## Morimur

It'd be nice to have a modern, state of the art studio recording of the Ring cycle for the 21st century. Alas, I suppose the talent and money simply aren't available.


----------



## Peer Gynt

DarkAngel said:


> I have been considering this Naxos Historical Ring boxset comprised of all MET recordings 1936-41, but two of these operas were included in recent Wagner boxset below, so I am only getting two new operas I don't already own. Price is low but I would never listen to them on a regular basis because of compromised sound, just for reference purposes........if I did buy this *duck would be impressed *since I could name drop Melchior, Schorr, Traubel etc


Hello everyone,

I am new to this forum but have been following this particular thread with great interest.

I have owned The Met Naxos Ring with Bodansky and Leinsdorf for a few years and I am afraid to say that, imho, it is an essential purchase!

The historical Rings I currently own are Keilberth 55, Kna 56, Furtwangler (50 and 53) and Krauss. The Krauss is, overall, my favourite. _However_, The Met cycle is something else again. I believe the 1st Act of Walkure (recorded the day before Pearl Harbor) is worth the price of admission alone. Yes, the speeds are frantic, but the voices are beyond extraordinary. A very black Kipnis as Hunding, Varnay as Sieglinde in her Met debut and as for Melchior... words fail. In fact I think that this live performance eclipses the celebrated Bruno Walter recording of Act 1.

Now.. I am sorry to risk raining on anyone's parade with what follows:

I too have been salivating over the release of Keilberth 53 in its new Pan Classics incarnation, but have been holding back for one reason. I have read that on the previous cd incarnations of this cycle (on Andromeda for example), the first Act of Siegfried is identical to that on Krauss' cycle (in all its releases). For example, the stage noises, coughs and Windgassen's errors are identical between Krauss' Siegfried Act 1 and Keilberth's 1953 Siegfried Act 1. So... which is which?

(The Allegro LPs of the Keilberth cycle (released in 1954 but under the pseudonymous guise of "Fritz Schreiber" conducting the Dresden State Opera) apparently contain an Act 1 Siegfried which is *different* to that of the later CD incarnations of this cycle which actually do credit Keilberth.)

If the CD versions of Krauss and Keilberth 1953 Siegfried Act 1 are in fact the same, does anyone know for certain who is actually conducting it?

Yours perplexed...

Peer


----------



## Steatopygous

Right, I'm up to p40 now. Still ploughing...

So far no one has mentioned one curiosity in my collection: 1950 Parsifal in Italian with Maria Callas on Cetra (poor sound). It was released in 1994. Some famous names in usual contexts (don't know the Parsifal). 

Maria Callas sop, Africo Baldelli ten, Rolando Panerai bass, Boris Christoff bass, O of Roma della Rai, Vittorio Gui.


----------



## Itullian

2 days to K '53. :guitar:


----------



## Barbebleu

Now.. I am sorry to risk raining on anyone's parade with what follows:

I too have been salivating over the release of Keilberth 53 in its new Pan Classics incarnation, but have been holding back for one reason. I have read that on the previous cd incarnations of this cycle (on Andromeda for example), the first Act of Siegfried is identical to that on Krauss' cycle (in all its releases). For example, the stage noises, coughs and Windgassen's errors are identical between Krauss' Siegfried Act 1 and Keilberth's 1953 Siegfried Act 1. So... which is which?

(The Allegro LPs of the Keilberth cycle (released in 1954 but under the pseudonymous guise of "Fritz Schreiber" conducting the Dresden State Opera) apparently contain an Act 1 Siegfried which is *different* to that of the later CD incarnations of this cycle which actually do credit Keilberth.)

If the CD versions of Krauss and Keilberth 1953 Siegfried Act 1 are in fact the same, does anyone know for certain who is actually conducting it?

Yours perplexed...

Peer[/QUOTE]

Cat amongst the pigeons Peer. I am now off to listen to the versions I have very carefully. Now I have listened and to my chagrin you are dead right. Now my task is clear. Find the correct Siegfried Act 1. Whoever it is!!


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## Itullian

This is very disturbing.
But I'm still getting it.


----------



## Peer Gynt

Barbebleu said:


> Now.. I am sorry to risk raining on anyone's parade with what follows:
> 
> I too have been salivating over the release of Keilberth 53 in its new Pan Classics incarnation, but have been holding back for one reason. I have read that on the previous cd incarnations of this cycle (on Andromeda for example), the first Act of Siegfried is identical to that on Krauss' cycle (in all its releases). For example, the stage noises, coughs and Windgassen's errors are identical between Krauss' Siegfried Act 1 and Keilberth's 1953 Siegfried Act 1. So... which is which?
> 
> (The Allegro LPs of the Keilberth cycle (released in 1954 but under the pseudonymous guise of "Fritz Schreiber" conducting the Dresden State Opera) apparently contain an Act 1 Siegfried which is *different* to that of the later CD incarnations of this cycle which actually do credit Keilberth.)
> 
> If the CD versions of Krauss and Keilberth 1953 Siegfried Act 1 are in fact the same, does anyone know for certain who is actually conducting it?
> 
> Yours perplexed...
> 
> Peer


Cat amongst the pigeons Peer. I am now off to listen to the versions I have very carefully. Now I have listened and to my chagrin you are dead right. Now my task is clear. Find the correct Siegfried Act 1. Whoever it is!![/QUOTE]

Barbebleu,

I feel awful now for introducing a wolf note, but felt I should alert people to this, as I have only just discovered it myself when doing some background research to this cycle prior to purchasing this latest Pan Classics edition.

Much as I want this new set (and call me a purist), I want to know what I am getting so I might hold off for a while until it's established categorically what is in the Pan Box for Siegfried Act 1.


----------



## Peer Gynt

Barbebleu said:


> Now I have listened... Find the correct Siegfried Act 1. Whoever it is!!


And Barbebleu,

Many thanks for having the capacity and facility to check both Krauss and your current Keilberth! I had hoped I had previously been misinformed though!


----------



## Barbebleu

Peer Gynt said:


> And Barbebleu,
> 
> Many thanks for having the capacity and facility to check both Krauss and your current Keilberth! I had hoped I had previously been misinformed though!


No worries Peer. Good to know that this has happened. I'm
now wondering if this set below has the correct Keilberth '53 Siegfried but I have a bad feeling that it is actually the Krauss that is wrong.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/69/dp/B009P...r=8-1&keywords=Der+ring+des+Nibelungen+gesamt

If this is different from the Keilberth I have I'll be buying it.


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## Peer Gynt

Aah, Barbebleu, thanks - I had forgotten about this Zyx release. This may compound matters.

The information I originally read, from another forum, suggested, because the 1954 Allegro LP release of the Keilberth (masquerading as Fritz Schreiber) had been taken from an off-air recording of the Keilberth 53 cycle, that it was counter-intuitive for those responsible for the Allegro release to interpolate the Krauss Act 1 into the rest of a cycle conducted by his friend Keilberth. Which sounds plausible, unless, of course, something went wrong with the tapes (or performance?) of the actual Keilberth Siegfried Act 1, and to rescue the totality of the cycle for release, the Krauss was dropped in...

Oh, I don't know, and my brain hurts thinking about it all!


----------



## DarkAngel

Peer Gynt said:


> Aah, Barbebleu, thanks - I had forgotten about this Zyx release. This may compound matters.
> 
> The information I originally read, from another forum, suggested, because the 1954 Allegro LP release of the Keilberth (masquerading as Fritz Schreiber) had been taken from an off-air recording of the Keilberth 53 cycle, that it was counter-intuitive for those responsible for the Allegro release to interpolate the Krauss Act 1 into the rest of a cycle conducted by his friend Keilberth. Which sounds plausible, unless, of course, something went wrong with the tapes (or performance?) of the actual Keilberth Siegfried Act 1, and to rescue the totality of the cycle for release, the Krauss was dropped in...
> 
> *Oh, I don't know, and my brain hurts thinking about it all*!


Despite the possible confusion over Siegfried act 1, there is no reason not to purchase the 53 Keilberth Ring tomorrow at Amazon USA, there is no other in stock new CD version and the used ones are insanely priced......I have cleared some shelf space for it 

Keep mind that ultra cheap ZYX Ring set referred to above combines operas from different Rings and only the Siegfried is from 53 Keilberth set


----------



## Barbebleu

Peer Gynt said:


> Aah, Barbebleu, thanks - I had forgotten about this Zyx release. This may compound matters.
> 
> The information I originally read, from another forum, suggested, because the 1954 Allegro LP release of the Keilberth (masquerading as Fritz Schreiber) had been taken from an off-air recording of the Keilberth 53 cycle, that it was counter-intuitive for those responsible for the Allegro release to interpolate the Krauss Act 1 into the rest of a cycle conducted by his friend Keilberth. Which sounds plausible, unless, of course, something went wrong with the tapes (or performance?) of the actual Keilberth Siegfried Act 1, and to rescue the totality of the cycle for release, the Krauss was dropped in...
> 
> Oh, I don't know, and my brain hurts thinking about it all!


So, are we assuming then that the Krauss is right and the fault lies in the Keilberth releases? Is it a possibility that the Krauss might be the wrong one and that the Keilberth Siegfried Act 1 was slotted in either deliberately because there was a fault or by mistake and the tapes got mixed up. Somehow I feel that it is more likely that no Act 1 for whichever one it is was not available for whatever reason. Ah well. That's the way it goes sometimes.


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## Peer Gynt

Barbebleu said:


> So, are we assuming then that the Krauss is right and the fault lies in the Keilberth releases?


I don't know, Barbebleu!



Barbebleu said:


> Is it a possibility that the Krauss might be the wrong one and that the Keilberth Siegfried Act 1 was slotted in either deliberately because there was a fault or by mistake and the tapes got mixed up.


Yes, that is a possibility too, I think.

As you suggest, these are the breaks sometimes. I am still going to wait and see.


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## Peer Gynt

DarkAngel said:


> Despite the possible confusion over Siegfried act 1, there is no reason not to purchase the 53 Keilberth Ring tomorrow at Amazon USA


Well there is for me! 



DarkAngel said:


> There is no other in stock new CD version and the used ones are insanely priced......I have cleared some shelf space for it


Well, it could come down in price after a few days or a week or two, especially from 3rd party sellers. I can wait...



DarkAngel said:


> Keep mind that ultra cheap ZYX Ring set referred to above combines operas different Rings and only the Siegfried is from 53 Keilberth set


Good reminder, DarkAngel. But what quality performers elsewhere in this set (Krauss 52, Furt 54)! Is the Gotterdammerung not from 53 as well?


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## Peer Gynt

Is it permitted to share links to other forums? If so, I will show you what I have read.


----------



## gardibolt

Good detective work there. I look forward to hearing how it sorts out.

It looks like the forum rules prohibit linking to another forum.


> Members may not advertise nor insert URL links to any commercial or non-commercial products or websites within their personal profile page, within blogs, nor in threads/posts. You may post promotional links within the designated area(s): The »Classifieds« forum, only if they apply solely to Classical Music and no other genre, unless given express permission by the owners of Talk Classical.
> 
> It is also forbidden to advertise items for sale in threads, posts, Private Messages, Visitor Messages, or Blogs.
> 
> It is strictly prohibited to solicit traffic to any sites competing with Talk Classical in any way, including but not limited to, links in posts, signatures, profile information, PM's, VM's, eMails, IM's, or Blog pages.


But copying and pasting a relevant chunk shouldn't be a problem, I don't think, so long as you stay within the boundaries of 'fair use.'


----------



## gardibolt

Googling shows this has been under discussion for about a dozen years. Huh, nothing is new, I guess. Also saw someone claiming that Act I of the 1955 Keilberth Siegfried is faked too; Windgassen couldn't hammer Nothung properly in time so they patched it after the fact in late night sessions, with someone else doing the hammering. Apparently that was Culshaw's doing, citing Ring Resounding.

Someone suggests the only way to know for sure is to compare the old Allegro LPs, which were taken directly from the 1953 Keilberth Ring broadcasts.


----------



## DarkAngel

Peer Gynt said:


> Good reminder, DarkAngel. But what quality performers elsewhere in this set (Krauss 52, Furt 54)! Is the Gotterdammerung not from 53 as well?












Rheingold - 52 Keilberth
Walkure - 54 Furtwangler (studio WP orchestra)
Seigfried - 53 Keilberth
Gotterdammerung - 52 Keilberth

ZYX label insanely low priced mixed performance Ring ( $14 Amazon USA ), extreme bare bones booklet


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## Itullian

1 day until K '53 day. :tiphat:


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## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> 1 day until K '53 day. :tiphat:












Hey Tully,

Just wanted you to know this 10CD boxset contains the complete 56 Kempe Meistersinger, only $13.98 Amazon Prime


----------



## gardibolt

I broke down and ordered the 1955 Testament set; from Amazon.de it was $125 shipped, which is still a lot but a good deal better than any place else I've been able to find it. At this point it doesn't look like it's going to get any cheaper either. Going to wait on the '53 until some reviews are in about the sound quality. Since Amazon is offering no discount at all off list price, I see no harm there.


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Hey Tully,
> 
> Just wanted you to know this 10CD boxset contains the complete 56 Kempe Meistersinger, only $13.98 Amazon Prime


Thanks DA,
How do you find the sound on this series?


----------



## Itullian

gardibolt said:


> I broke down and ordered the 1955 Testament set; from Amazon.de it was $125 shipped, which is still a lot but a good deal better than any place else I've been able to find it. At this point it doesn't look like it's going to get any cheaper either. Going to wait on the '53 until some reviews are in about the sound quality. Since Amazon is offering no discount at all off list price, I see no harm there.


Great price!!
You won't be disappointed.


----------



## Barbebleu

Peer Gynt said:


> I don't know, Barbebleu!
> 
> Yes, that is a possibility too, I think.
> 
> As you suggest, these are the breaks sometimes. I am still going to wait and see.


There is a Keilberth '53 Siegfried in the Wagner's Visions box set. Sadly Act 1 sounds exactly the same as the Krauss too. Same coughs in the same places. If anyone has the Zyx box could they listen to the prelude to Act 1. If there is coughing at the start and about 30 seconds in then it is the same as the other Keilberths I have heard. Hopefully DA or Itullian can shed light on the subject when they get their Pristines. If it is cough free then it will be on my shopping list. Obviously I would prefer the Zyx to be the cough free one!!


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## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> *I broke down and ordered the 1955 Testament set*; from Amazon.de it was $125 shipped, which is still a lot but a good deal better than any place else I've been able to find it. At this point it doesn't look like it's going to get any cheaper either. Going to wait on the '53 until some reviews are in about the sound quality. Since Amazon is offering no discount at all off list price, I see no harm there.


The foundation stone of any 50s Bayreuth Wagner collection, the greatest singers in best sound available (live stereo), the packaging and booklet very nice......each sleeve has unique BW performance photo!


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## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Thanks DA,
> How do you find the sound on this series?


Sound is first class, the 56 Meister sounds like the EMI release.....not a vinyl copy with pops/clicks, Frantz has great tonal color and authority as Sachs and the angelic Miss Grummer has never been bettered as Eva

A cheap way to get the 56 Kempe Meister and much more, just put it in Amazon buy basket with 53 Keilberth Ring and press buy button (by accident like Clayton)


----------



## Peer Gynt

gardibolt said:


> Googling shows this has been under discussion for about a dozen years. Huh, nothing is new, I guess. Also saw someone claiming that Act I of the 1955 Keilberth Siegfried is faked too; Windgassen couldn't hammer Nothung properly in time so they patched it after the fact in late night sessions, with someone else doing the hammering. Apparently that was Culshaw's doing, citing Ring Resounding.


Yes, gardibolt. The soundstage/acoustical environment changes in scene 3 of the Act, when Siegfried forges Nothung. This is apparently a patch-in to replace the live forging scene which reportedly did not pass muster for release. This interpolation does not spoil the enjoyment for me - there is awesome power from WW and the Bayreuth forces at this point, like an unstoppable juggernaut. It's very impressive.



gardibolt said:


> Someone suggests the only way to know for sure is to compare the old Allegro LPs, which were taken directly from the 1953 Keilberth Ring broadcasts.


Thank you for your sourcing of the rules regarding citing of other forums. The person who suggests comparison with the Allegro LPs thus spake:

_"The first act of Siegfried on both the 1953 Krauss and Keilberth are the same performance - same coughs at the same time etc. So the question becomes which is it. I was able to solve it by playing the infamous Allegro Ring that was issued in early 1954 supposedly by Fritz Schreiber and the Dresden Orchestra. The performance was actually a very primitive transfer of the 1953 Bayreuth Keilberth Ring and the coughs in Siegfried act One match that of the supposed Krauss. Since it doesn't make sense that the person making the copy from the radio for the Allegro LPs would for some reason switch from the 1953 Keilberth and start recording the 1953 Krauss just for that Act, I would come up with the conclusion that the performance is from the Keilberth Ring. "_

Not conclusive as to which is what or by whom. Make of this what you will.


----------



## Peer Gynt

Barbebleu said:


> There is a Keilberth '53 Siegfried in the Wagner's Visions box set. Sadly Act 1 sounds exactly the same as the Krauss too. Same coughs in the same places. If anyone has the Zyx box could they listen to the prelude to Act 1. If there is coughing at the start and about 30 seconds in then it is the same as the other Keilberths I have heard. Hopefully DA or Itullian can shed light on the subject when they get their Pristines. If it is cough free then it will be on my shopping list. Obviously I would prefer the Zyx to be the cough free one!!


I've read that Pristine's Krauss shares the same lack of the introductory timps as other CD incarnations of this Siegfried. The Orfeo release, seemingly from Bayreuth "master tapes" reinstates the timp rumble just before the bassoons enter. FWIW.


----------



## Peer Gynt

DarkAngel said:


> Rheingold - 52 Keilberth
> Walkure - 54 Furtwangler (studio WP orchestra)
> Seigfried - 53 Keilberth
> Gotterdammerung - 52 Keilberth
> 
> ZYX label insanely low priced mixed performance Ring ( $14 Amazon USA ), extreme bare bones booklet


: The Amazon page mislabels the Gott as "1953" - thanks for pasting the back cover which clarifies and corrects this error.


----------



## Peer Gynt

Last night's listening was Das Rheingold from Kna's 1956 cycle. Monumental, broad, propulsive and ineluctable conducting, very different from Krauss and Keilberth, equally convincing, despite some slightly exasperating rubati at certain points, wonderful voices.

The anvils, generated via Mixtur-Trautonium, are the most bizarre sound I have ever heard in a Ring recording (or even _any_ recording); they remind me of the sound effects on early space invaders games from the 1980s. Utterly odd.


----------



## Barbebleu

Peer Gynt said:


> Yes, gardibolt. The soundstage/acoustical environment changes in scene 3 of the Act, when Siegfried forges Nothung. This is apparently a patch-in to replace the live forging scene which reportedly did not pass muster for release. This interpolation does not spoil the enjoyment for me - there is awesome power from WW and the Bayreuth forces at this point, like an unstoppable juggernaut. It's very impressive.
> 
> Thank you for your sourcing of the rules regarding citing of other forums. The person who suggests comparison with the Allegro LPs thus spake:
> 
> _"The first act of Siegfried on both the 1953 Krauss and Keilberth are the same performance - same coughs at the same time etc. So the question becomes which is it. I was able to solve it by playing the infamous Allegro Ring that was issued in early 1954 supposedly by Fritz Schreiber and the Dresden Orchestra. The performance was actually a very primitive transfer of the 1953 Bayreuth Keilberth Ring and the coughs in Siegfried act One match that of the supposed Krauss. Since it doesn't make sense that the person making the copy from the radio for the Allegro LPs would for some reason switch from the 1953 Keilberth and start recording the 1953 Krauss just for that Act, I would come up with the conclusion that the performance is from the Keilberth Ring. "_
> 
> Not conclusive as to which is what or by whom. Make of this what you will.


If I am reading this correctly it suggests that the Krauss Siegfried Act 1 is the rogue.


----------



## Peer Gynt

Barbebleu said:


> If I am reading this correctly it suggests that the Krauss Siegfried Act 1 is the rogue.


Could be, Barbebleu. Does anyone have a copy of the Orfeo Krauss Ring (from the 'master tapes') to compare with a Keilberth 53 release?


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## Barbebleu

If Pip is following this thread perhaps he could give us the benefit of his knowledge and experience of the thorny world of vintage live recordings.


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## Barbebleu

This is being released in the U.K. on 4th September.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ring-Nibelu...r=1-1-fkmr0&keywords=Dear+ring+Clemens+krauss

I'm not familiar with the label but I would like to hear the first two minutes of Siegfried Act 1.


----------



## Peer Gynt

Barbebleu said:


> This is being released in the U.K. on 4th September.
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ring-Nibelu...r=1-1-fkmr0&keywords=Dear+ring+Clemens+krauss
> 
> I'm not familiar with the label but I would like to hear the first two minutes of Siegfried Act 1.


Excellent spot, Barbebleu. This is indeed interesting. The label, Membran (Documents), has a bit of a spotty history but is consistently improving in my experience. Which source they have used for the Krauss Ring is anyone's guess as the majority of these Membran boxes come without any insert leaflet or documentation.

I have, amongst other things, Membran's 10-CD set entitled "Melchior: King Size Hero", packed full of lovely stuff. Also that label's Furtwangler Rome Ring. The sound is fine.


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## Peer Gynt

Does anyone know or have the Pan Classics "Cosima Era" set, released a couple of years ago?

It's an education in itself. A fascinating document of a long lost world, with plenty of evidence of the Bayreuth Bark. Very different style of singing even from the Golden Age of the 20s through to the early 40s. Heavy declamation of words, far less legato, it's akin to a cold splash of water on the face to anyone used to the elegant, almost bel canto quality of the Golden Age singers.


----------



## gardibolt

Peer Gynt said:


> I've read that Pristine's Krauss shares the same lack of the introductory timps as other CD incarnations of this Siegfried. The Orfeo release, seemingly from Bayreuth "master tapes" reinstates the timp rumble just before the bassoons enter. FWIW.


Correct. Just listened to the Pristine Krauss Siegfried and it starts immediately with the two bassoons in the fourth measure. The first three bars of timpani rumble are absent. I've emailed Rose to point this out to him.

Listening to the entire opera now; can't help it. Whoever it is, it's damned fine.

I too am interested in whether the Orfeo Krauss Siegfried, which claims to be from the master tapes, is the same as the other Krauss/Keilberths, or whether it's different. Assuming the fellow who listened to the Allegro LPs is telling the truth, it seems pretty conclusive that somehow Keilberth's Act I got stuck onto Krauss's for some reason. But people on the Internet have been known to stretch the truth, as Abraham Lincoln used to say.


----------



## gardibolt

Peer Gynt said:


> Does anyone know or have the Pan Classics "Cosima Era" set, released a couple of years ago?
> 
> It's an education in itself. A fascinating document of a long lost world, with plenty of evidence of the Bayreuth Bark. Very different style of singing even from the Golden Age of the 20s through to the early 40s. Heavy declamation of words, far less legato, it's akin to a cold splash of water on the face to anyone used to the elegant, almost bel canto quality of the Golden Age singers.


Ooooh, that looks fascinating.


----------



## gardibolt

Steatopygous said:


> Right, I'm up to p40 now. Still ploughing...
> 
> So far no one has mentioned one curiosity in my collection: 1950 Parsifal in Italian with Maria Callas on Cetra (poor sound). It was released in 1994. Some famous names in usual contexts (don't know the Parsifal).
> 
> Maria Callas sop, Africo Baldelli ten, Rolando Panerai bass, Boris Christoff bass, O of Roma della Rai, Vittorio Gui.


Gala released a CD of just Act II of that Parsifal (the bulk of Callas' part), apparently from a different but incomplete source, which has pretty good sound. I found a used copy on Amazon for less than $2 a few weeks ago.


----------



## Woodduck

Peer Gynt said:


> Does anyone know or have the Pan Classics "Cosima Era" set, released a couple of years ago?
> 
> It's an education in itself. A fascinating document of a long lost world, with plenty of evidence of the Bayreuth Bark. Very different style of singing even from the Golden Age of the 20s through to the early 40s. Heavy declamation of words, far less legato, it's akin to a cold splash of water on the face to anyone used to the elegant, almost bel canto quality of the Golden Age singers.


It's interesting that we have recordings documenting the performing style encouraged by Cosima during her years as dictator of Bayreuth. Wagner himself always advocated the "Italian style" of singing and urged his singers not to treat his vocal writing as recitative ("It's all arias," he told them). Apparently Wagner admired the singing of Mattia Battistini - the very embodiment of the bel canto style - met him, and expressed his admiration. There are some recordings of singers who participated in the first Bayreuth festivals under the composer's direction, but most of those singers are by then in vocal decline. The extant recordings of Hermann Winkelmann, the first Parsifal in 1882, are pretty awful, and we can only imagine how he sounded twenty-some years earlier. Wagner would not have been happy with the "Bayreuth bark," but would have been ecstatic to hear singers such as Schorr, Kipnis, Melchior, Volker, Lehmann, Leider and Flagstad in the 1930s. (We'd be ecstatic to hear them now too! )


----------



## Bill H.

Peer Gynt said:


> I've read that Pristine's Krauss shares the same lack of the introductory timps as other CD incarnations of this Siegfried. The Orfeo release, seemingly from Bayreuth "master tapes" reinstates the timp rumble just before the bassoons enter. FWIW.


That is correct, the Orfeo has the complete opening with the timpani roll. It's supposedly the "official" release using the archival Bavarian Radio tapes. None of the other remasterings I've heard have it.


----------



## Bill H.

Peer Gynt said:


> Could be, Barbebleu. Does anyone have a copy of the Orfeo Krauss Ring (from the 'master tapes') to compare with a Keilberth 53 release?


I have a "rip" of the Orfeo set, and I know the Krauss set pretty well overall through that and other incarnations, but I've never heard the '53 Keilberth to give a comparison. I do know that the Orfeo set (minus the restored timpani at the beginning of Act I, as well as the applause at the end) sounds to be the same performance as other sets labeled as the Krauss.


----------



## Peer Gynt

Woodduck said:


> It's interesting that we have recordings documenting the performing style encouraged by Cosima during her years as dictator of Bayreuth. Wagner himself always advocated the "Italian style" of singing and urged his singers not to treat his vocal writing as recitative ("It's all arias," he told them). Apparently Wagner admired the singing of Mattia Battistini - the very embodiment of the bel canto style - met him, and expressed his admiration. There are some recordings of singers who participated in the first Bayreuth festivals under the composer's direction, but most of those singers are by then in vocal decline. The extant recordings of Hermann Winkelmann, the first Parsifal in 1882, are pretty awful, and we can only imagine how he sounded twenty-some years earlier. Wagner would not have been happy with the "Bayreuth bark," but would have been ecstatic to hear singers such as Schorr, Kipnis, Melchior, Volker, Lehmann, Leider and Flagstad in the 1930s. (We'd be ecstatic to hear them now too! )


Thanks Woodduck, for providing this extra information. I agree that Wagner would have approved of Melchior, Schorr, Leider et al. Wholeheartedly.


----------



## Barbebleu

Bill H. said:


> I have a "rip" of the Orfeo set, and I know the Krauss set pretty well overall through that and other incarnations, but I've never heard the '53 Keilberth to give a comparison. I do know that the Orfeo set (minus the restored timpani at the beginning of Act I, as well as the applause at the end) sounds to be the same performance as other sets labeled as the Krauss.


Bill H., does the Orfeo Krauss have audience coughing right at the start of Act 1 of Siegfried followed by a lone cough just after the tympani roll. If it does then it's the same as the Keilberth one. Incidentally the new release of the Keilberth that everyone is salivating over is the same as all the other Keilberths. It has the same Act 1 Siegfried as any of the Krauss's I have heard unless the Orfeo is different.


----------



## Barbebleu

Apropos of nothing, in the box Tenor Heroes of Bayreuth there is a recording of Winifred Wagner talking about Bayreuth after the war. Unfortunately it is in German and no translation is given in the accompanying booklet. Does anyone here know what she is saying?


----------



## gardibolt

I've listened to Act I of Siegfried so many times today that I think it's become my favorite chunk of Wagner. Just so much incredible stuff going on all the time.


----------



## Itullian

gardibolt said:


> I've listened to Act I of Siegfried so many times today that I think it's become my favorite chunk of Wagner. Just so much incredible stuff going on all the time.


It's great like all Wagner. I'm partial to Act 2 myself.


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> I've listened to Act I of Siegfried so many times today that I think it's become my favorite chunk of Wagner. Just so much incredible stuff going on all the time.





> It's great like all Wagner. I'm partial to Act 2 myself.


And I favor Act 3 with greater variety of voices 

Wanderer - Erda
Wanderer - Siegfried
Siegfried - Brunnhilde

I am waiting for delivery of 53 Keilberth Ring boxset.......


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> And I favor Act 3 with greater variety of voices
> 
> Wanderer - Erda
> Wanderer - Siegfried
> Siegfried - Brunnhilde
> 
> I am waiting for delivery of 53 Keilberth Ring boxset.......


Yeah, but I have the Woodbird


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Yeah, but I have the Woodbird


Indeed, but you must drink some dragon's blood in order to understand what all those chirps really mean.......


----------



## Woodduck

Itullian said:


> Yeah, but I have the Woodbird


Beware matchmakers disguised as wildlife.


----------



## Becca

DarkAngel said:


> Indeed, but you must drink some dragon's blood in order to understand what all those chirps really mean.......


......................


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Indeed, but you must drink some dragon's blood in order to understand what all those chirps really mean.......


I'm on it..............


----------



## Steatopygous

gardibolt said:


> Gala released a CD of just Act II of that Parsifal (the bulk of Callas' part), apparently from a different but incomplete source, which has pretty good sound. I found a used copy on Amazon for less than $2 a few weeks ago.


Have you listened to it? I don't think I have except when I bought it 20 years ago. Should I pull it out of the shelves again?


----------



## DavidA

Itullian said:


> It's great like all Wagner. I'm partial to Act 2 myself.


Act 1 and 2 of Siegfried are decidedly tedious in places! I usually start at Act 3


----------



## Itullian

DavidA said:


> Act 1 and 2 of Siegfried are decidedly tedious in places! I usually start at Act 3


Sorry you miss so much.


----------



## Peer Gynt

Bill H. said:


> I have a "rip" of the Orfeo set, and I know the Krauss set pretty well overall through that and other incarnations, but I've never heard the '53 Keilberth to give a comparison. I do know that the Orfeo set (minus the restored timpani at the beginning of Act I, as well as the applause at the end) sounds to be the same performance as other sets labeled as the Krauss.


Thanks Bill, that's very helpful.


----------



## Peer Gynt

DavidA said:


> Act 1 and 2 of Siegfried are decidedly tedious in places! I usually start at Act 3


I tend to agree with this David. The Mime-Siegfried-Alberich scene does go on a bit, imho, but perhaps this is what Wagner wanted, in order to accentuate the inherent grotesquerie of the encounter, its squabbling and the nastiness of the two dwarves. This bit is perhaps my least favourite of the whole cycle.


----------



## DavidA

Peer Gynt said:


> I tend to agree with this David. The Mime-Siegfried-Alberich scene does go on a bit, imho, but perhaps this is what Wagner wanted, in order to accentuate the inherent grotesquerie of the encounter, its squabbling and the nastiness of the two dwarves. This bit is perhaps my least favourite of the whole cycle.


Especially in the solti version with Stoltze whining and Hotter wobbling. Painful listening!


----------



## Itullian

I love it........................
So much musical treasure there.


----------



## Itullian

DavidA said:


> Especially in the solti version with Stoltze whining and Hotter wobbling. Painful listening!


Always interjecting negatives. 
sheeesh.
It's really getting old.


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> And I favor Act 3 with greater variety of voices
> 
> Wanderer - Erda
> Wanderer - Siegfried
> Siegfried - Brunnhilde
> 
> I am waiting for delivery of 53 Keilberth Ring boxset.......


I'm still holding out to see if price will drop a bit more.


----------



## Peer Gynt

Barbebleu said:


> This is being released in the U.K. on 4th September.
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ring-Nibelu...r=1-1-fkmr0&keywords=Dear+ring+Clemens+krauss
> 
> I'm not familiar with the label but I would like to hear the first two minutes of Siegfried Act 1.


Membran are known to take their transfers of some things from out of copyright LPs, with some very good results, but not always. I have some great sounding sets from them (Debussy Portrait 10 disc box set, a Bruno Walter 10-box etc).

What if Membran has transferred an Allegro LP copy of Keilberth 53, the one ascribed to "Fritz Schreiber" and his "Dresden" forces...? The LPs were reportedly in bad sound, but what if...?


----------



## Barbebleu

V


Peer Gynt said:


> Membran are known to take their transfers of some things from out of copyright LPs, with some very good results, but not always. I have some great sounding sets from them (Debussy Portrait 10 disc box set, a Bruno Walter 10-box etc).
> 
> What if Membran has transferred an Allegro LP copy of Keilberth 53, the one ascribed to "Fritz Schreiber" and his "Dresden" forces...? The LPs were reportedly in bad sound, but what if...?


I only need to hear the first two minutes of Siegfried Act 1 and all will be revealed. No coughs in the expected places and I'll be a happy Wagnerite!!


----------



## Barbebleu

DavidA said:


> Especially in the solti version with Stoltze whining and Hotter wobbling. Painful listening!


I think we all know by now that you're not partial to the Solti Ring!


----------



## Peer Gynt

I think the Membran Krauss is a must buy anyway, at that knockdown price. I do wonder what their source is (my ridiculous flights of fancy notwithstanding) for their transfer. I bought a Membran Schnabel Beethoven sonata set a while back and the sound, whilst filtered, was cleaner than the EMI set I had. Similarly, Membran's Furtwangler Rome Ring sounds like a slightly better, though similar, transfer to the "official" EMI. To these ears anyway.


----------



## Itullian

Barbebleu said:


> I think we all know by now that you're not partial to the Solti Ring!


Or Wagner, period.


----------



## Itullian

Listening to '53 Krauss Pristine Ambient stereo Gotterdammerung.
Very good 
i gotta figure out a way to get these :lol:


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Listening to '53 Krauss Pristine Ambient stereo Gotterdammerung.
> Very good
> *i gotta figure out a way to get these* :lol:


Indeed there is no substitute 

*Clayton got his Pristine XR Krauss Ring *and is "at the other forum" describing listening with big smile on his face, yet he forgets about his Wagner brothers and sisters here and leaves us hanging.........we are the true believers!


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Indeed there is no substitute
> 
> *Clayton got his Pristine XR Krauss Ring *and is "at the other forum" describing listening with big smile on his face, yet he forgets about his Wagner brothers and sisters here and leaves us hanging.........we are the true believers!


Traitor!!!!!...................


----------



## Barbebleu

Peer Gynt said:


> I think the Membran Krauss is a must buy anyway, at that knockdown price. I do wonder what their source is (my ridiculous flights of fancy notwithstanding) for their transfer. I bought a Membran Schnabel Beethoven sonata set a while back and the sound, whilst filtered, was cleaner than the EMI set I had. Similarly, Membran's Furtwangler Rome Ring sounds like a slightly better, though similar, transfer to the "official" EMI. To these ears anyway.


I have the '53 Krauss anyway in pretty good sound and I really only want another version if the Siegfried is really Krauss or at least different to the one I have! If they would only have a download sample somewhere - fat chance!?


----------



## Bill H.

Barbebleu said:


> Bill H., does the Orfeo Krauss have audience coughing right at the start of Act 1 of Siegfried followed by a lone cough just after the tympani roll. If it does then it's the same as the Keilberth one. Incidentally the new release of the Keilberth that everyone is salivating over is the same as all the other Keilberths. It has the same Act 1 Siegfried as any of the Krauss's I have heard unless the Orfeo is different.


Yes, it does (the Orfeo Siegfried).


----------



## Itullian

I just ordered this!!!
Couldn't wait anymore.
I'm soooooooooo excited. :trp:


----------



## Peer Gynt

Googling "The 1953 Joseph Keilberth Siegfried has long been shown to be a mix" - retaining the quotation marks - reveals a hit to opera.archive. I get "page not found" when I click the link - perhaps a subscription is necessary. Does anyone here subscribe to this journal? It looks as if there might be some information here on the Krauss/Keilberth Siegfried Act 1 from 53 (though there again, it may merely be a passing reference...).


----------



## Peer Gynt

Peer Gynt said:


> Googling "The 1953 Joseph Keilberth Siegfried has long been shown to be a mix" - retaining the quotation marks - reveals a hit to opera.archive. I get "page not found" when I click the link - perhaps a subscription is necessary. Does anyone here subscribe to this journal? It looks as if there might be some information here on the Krauss/Keilberth Siegfried Act 1 from 53 (though there again, it may merely be a passing reference...).


Upon reflection, I _may_ be able to gain free access to this site through work. I will investigate tomorrow (whilst, naturally, doing lots of work as well ).


----------



## Barbebleu

Peer Gynt said:


> Upon reflection, I _may_ be able to gain free access to this site through work. I will investigate tomorrow (whilst, naturally, doing lots of work as well ).


I'm now getting to a point where I don't really care any more. I have enough Ring cycles to last me the rest of my life so the fact that I don't have one Act is really of trivial importance. Having said that I have just ordered the Membran Krauss in the forlorn hope that it is different!!


----------



## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> *I'm now getting to a point where I don't really care any more. *I have enough Ring cycles to last me the rest of my life so the fact that I don't have one Act is really of trivial importance. Having said that I have just ordered the Membran Krauss in the forlorn hope that it is different!!


All this is very interesting but really a tempest in the teapot.......

Yes we want to have accurate historical opera documents, but at this point even if you proved to Pan Classics act 1 of Seigfried was not from 53 Keilberth I suspect it is probably that way for a reason and there is really nothing they can do even if they wanted to, I don't think there will be any revised version issued

Our choice before us is to either buy the new 53 Keilberth Ring boxset "as is" or not..........


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> All this is very interesting but really a tempest in the teapot.......
> 
> Yes we want to have accurate historical opera documents, but at this point even if you proved to Pan Classics act 1 of Seigfried was not from 53 Keilberth I suspect it is probably that way for a reason and there is really nothing they can do even if they wanted to, I don't think there will be any revised version issued
> 
> Our choice before us is to either buy the new 53 Keilberth Ring boxset as is or not..........


One act won't stop me.


----------



## Barbebleu

G


DarkAngel said:


> All this is very interesting but really a tempest in the teapot.......
> 
> Yes we want to have accurate historical opera documents, but at this point even if you proved to Pan Classics act 1 of Seigfried was not from 53 Keilberth I suspect it is probably that way for a reason and there is really nothing they can do even if they wanted to, I don't think there will be any revised version issued
> 
> Our choice before us is to either buy the new 53 Keilberth Ring boxset "as is" or not..........


You're right DA. You pays your money, you takes your chance!... I'm quite content with the Keilberth I have so I'll be passing but everyone else, enjoy.


----------



## Barbebleu

I have just finished listening to Götterdämmerung from Salzburg 1970. The same cast as Karajan's studio recording except Jess Thomas is Siegfried and not Helge Brilioth. It is fabulous and the Brunnhilde/Waltraute scene is sensational with Christa Ludwig just fantastic. Karajan's live Ring cycle is in many ways superior to his studio version. Highly recommended. 
Next up is a 1962 Ring from Buenos Aires with Nilsson, Hotter, Hopf, Brouwenstein, Uhl et al.


----------



## Itullian

Barbebleu said:


> G
> 
> You're right DA. You pays your money, you takes your chance!... I'm quite content with the Keilberth I have so I'll be passing but everyone else, enjoy.


Awww, come on B. Jump on in with us denizens.
We'll all discuss and chatter together about it.


----------



## Clayton

Itullian said:


> Listening to '53 Krauss Pristine Ambient stereo Gotterdammerung.
> Very good
> i gotta figure out a way to get these :lol:





DarkAngel said:


> Indeed there is no substitute
> 
> *Clayton got his Pristine XR Krauss Ring *and is "at the other forum" describing listening with big smile on his face, yet he forgets about his Wagner brothers and sisters here and leaves us hanging.........we are the true believers!





Itullian said:


> Traitor!!!!!...................


No, no!

I love you guys as much as I love the Pristine Krauss '53

erm...

actually let me think about that a bit more...

Seriously, I think this Götterdämmerung is the dogs bo££ocks (sorry, I am not that well educated and don't know any better words to describe it). The best advice I can give is log on to sell-your-kidneys-for top-dollar-dot-com and buy the recording.


----------



## Itullian

Clayton said:


> No, no!
> 
> I love you guys as much as I love the Pristine Krauss '53
> 
> erm...
> 
> actually let me think about that a bit more...
> 
> Seriously, I think this Götterdämmerung is the dogs bo££ocks (sorry, I am not that well educated and don't know any better words to describe it). The best advice I can give is log on to sell-your-kidneys-for top-dollar-dot-com and buy the recording.


You have the entire Ring?


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> Awww, come on B. Jump on in with us denizens.
> We'll all discuss and chatter together about it.


But what are we discussing? The recording quality? It is the interpretation that is the star of the show. My recording is, to my ears, good enough for that. The singing and acting and orchestral playing are exemplary as I think we all agree, so, as much as it would be nice to have this version, there are other things out there that will get my money for the moment.


----------



## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> *I have just finished listening to Götterdämmerung from Salzburg 1970*. The same cast as Karajan's studio recording except Jess Thomas is Siegfried and not Helge Brilioth. It is fabulous and the Brunnhilde/Waltraute scene is sensational with Christa Ludwig just fantastic. Karajan's live Ring cycle is in many ways superior to his studio version. Highly recommended.
> Next up is a 1962 Ring from Buenos Aires with Nilsson, Hotter, Hopf, Brouwenstein, Uhl et al.












Is this what you have, available in CD and mp3.........?

Looks like each opera is selected from best performances at Salzburg from 1967-70


----------



## Itullian

I had this set, but i don't know what happened to it.


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> And I favor Act 3 with greater variety of voices
> 
> Wanderer - Erda
> Wanderer - Siegfried
> Siegfried - Brunnhilde
> 
> *I am waiting for delivery of 53 Keilberth Ring boxset.......*




Can't wait to hear what you think of it DA.


----------



## Steatopygous

DarkAngel said:


> Is this what you have, available in CD and mp3.........?
> 
> Looks like each opera is selected from best performances at Salzburg from 1967-70


Or (my guess) they did one Ring opera a year from 67 to 70. That is quite common.


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> Is this what you have, available in CD and mp3.........?
> 
> Looks like each opera is selected from best performances at Salzburg from 1967-70


This is indeed what I have DA. It is very, very good. I believe they are the premieres from each year.


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> I had this set, but i don't know what happened to it.


Did it vanish in a house move or did someone "borrow" it? Was it complete or just highlights? If complete then that's a pity Itullian because I think that was probably another version of the one I have.


----------



## Clayton

Itullian said:


> You have the entire Ring?


Yes. Initially I was only going to purchase the Götterdämmerung but then I thought I wanted also to hear Siegfried. Now once you reach that point it is ony a short ride away from getting Die Walküre and then you let your guard down and realize Das Rheingold is also within easy reach...


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> Is this what you have, available in CD and mp3.........?
> 
> Looks like each opera is selected from best performances at Salzburg from 1967-70


Further to my previous comments on this DA, Jess Thomas is amazing as Siegfried. He seems to have great reserves particularly in Act 3 of Götterdämmerung. And so musical too. No barking the part, just beautiful singing. Helge Dernesch is a good Brunnhilde but sounds a little taxed in the Immolation but really very listenable. Ridderbusch as Hagen and Kelemen as Alberich are just wonderful at the start of Act 2. Karajan gets a stunning performance from the Berlin Phil. As you have guessed I am much enamoured of this Ring and I think it has found a place in my top five.


----------



## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> Further to my previous comments on this DA,* Jess Thomas is amazing as Siegfried*. He seems to have great reserves particularly in Act 3 of Götterdämmerung. And so musical too. No barking the part, just beautiful singing. Helge Dernesch is a good Brunnhilde but sounds a little taxed in the Immolation but really very listenable. Rudder such as Hagen and Kelemen as Alberich are just wonderful at the start of Act 2. Karajan gets a stunning performance from the Berlin Phil. As you have guessed I am much enamoured of this Ring and I think it has found a place in my top five.


Jess is without doubt a great Seigfried, the ultimate challenge for a wagner helden tenor, also great swan knight Lohengrin and the perfect fool Parsifal.......listen to these short words of advice from Jess regarding wagner singing



> *Great words of wisdom from Jess Thomas* about singing Wagner tenor roles and being a successful singer, when this man speaks wagner fans should listen, one of the great ones.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-Yf...3qVSmzIKvluZGf


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> Jess is without doubt a great Seigfried, the ultimate challenge for a wagner helden tenor, also great swan knight Lohengrin and the perfect fool Parsifal.......listen to these short words of advice from Jess regarding wagner singing


That was of course Ridderbusch, not Rudder such. Danged predictive text.


----------



## Clayton

Barbebleu said:


> Further to my previous comments on this DA, Jess Thomas is amazing as Siegfried. He seems to have great reserves particularly in Act 3 of Götterdämmerung. And so musical too. No barking the part, just beautiful singing. Helge Dernesch is a good Brunnhilde but sounds a little taxed in the Immolation but really very listenable. Ridderbusch as Hagen and Kelemen as Alberich are just wonderful at the start of Act 2. Karajan gets a stunning performance from the Berlin Phil. As you have guessed I am much enamoured of this Ring and I think it has found a place in my top five.


It would make more sense to saw off my left foot than to get another Ring but I really want to hear this now. It is nowhere to be found...


----------



## gardibolt

Itullian said:


> One act won't stop me.


Nor me, but I'm still curious as to what happened and how.


----------



## Barbebleu

Clayton said:


> It would make more sense to saw off my left foot than to get another Ring but I really want to hear this now. It is nowhere to be found...


Here you go

http://operadepot.com/products/wagn...u-janowitz-vickers-karajan-salzburg-1967-1970

So cheap if you order now! Mine is the MP3 download.


----------



## DarkAngel

Lohengrin son of Parsifal, swan knight of castle Montsalvat, divinely protected defender of the innocent and helpless
*
Jess Thomas and Sandor Konya* the legends from the mighty halls of Bayreuth, even singers today like Jonas Kaufmann are not worthy to stand beside them, we greatly admire them today as their past performances inspire and amaze us......we long to again hear the mystical tales of "in fernem land"


----------



## Itullian




----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Lohengrin son of Parsifal, swan knight of castle Montsalvat, divinely protected defender of the innocent and helpless
> *
> Jess Thomas and Sandor Konya* the legends from the mighty halls of Bayreuth, even singers today like Jonas Kaufmann are not worthy to stand beside them, we greatly admire them today as their past performances inspire and amaze us......we long to again hear the mystical tales of "in fernem land"


Two great Wagnerians. :tiphat:


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> Lohengrin son of Parsifal, swan knight of castle Montsalvat, divinely protected defender of the innocent and helpless
> *
> Jess Thomas and Sandor Konya* the legends from the mighty halls of Bayreuth, even singers today like Jonas Kaufmann are not worthy to stand beside them, we greatly admire them today as their past performances inspire and amaze us......we long to again hear the mystical tales of "in fernem land"


As much as I admire Kaufmann he is not as ingratiating to my ears as Thomas, Konya or, in his prime, Windgassen. I think he has too much of a nasally sound as if the notes are being slightly pinched. Having said that he was a fabulous Parsifal and in the Italian repertoire he is excellent.


----------



## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> As much as I admire Kaufmann he is not as ingratiating to my ears as Thomas, Konya or, in his prime, Windgassen.* I think he has too much of a nasally sound as if the notes are being slightly pinched*. Having said that he was a fabulous Parsifal and in the Italian repertoire he is excellent.


Barbie I agree with that description, I have the Kaufmann Lohengrin DVD and when you compare him vocally to Thomas and Konya they are just in another higher skill level. In the softer passages I hear that "nasally and opaqueness" to Kaufman's vocals.......Jess Thomas by comparison has a tonally clear pure soft voice capable of rendering the most delicate details, combined with an even more powerful commanding lower voice, the perfect instrument for the heroic swan knight


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> Barbie I agree with that description, I have the Kaufmann Lohengrin DVD and when you compare him vocally to Thomas and Konya they are just in another higher skill level. In the softer passages I hear that "nasally and opaqueness" to Kaufman's vocals.......Jess Thomas by comparison has a tonally clear pure soft voice capable of rendering the most delicate details, combined with an even more powerful commanding lower voice, the perfect instrument for the heroic swan knight


Thank you for that DA. Sometimes it can be dangerous to even slightly disparage someone like Kaufmann, who, I am sure for some, can do no wrong. I do like him in lots of things including Wagner and these days it is good to have someone who can sing these parts at all. Music is such a subjective and visceral thing. I know what I hear and how it affects me emotionally or intellectually when I am listening to a piece of music I like, be it Wagner, Puccini, Dylan or Wilco. I have no idea what anyone in the world is hearing even when we are listening to the same thing!! I like what I like and I'm happy for everyone else to feel the same.


----------



## Clayton

Barbebleu said:


> Here you go
> 
> http://operadepot.com/products/wagn...u-janowitz-vickers-karajan-salzburg-1967-1970
> 
> So cheap if you order now! Mine is the MP3 download.


Whilst I thank you kindly for the information,

the wife has just thrown a virtual rotten egg at you through cyberspace (I had to say it's your fault to deflect some anger)


----------



## DarkAngel

Clayton said:


> Whilst I thank you kindly for the information,
> 
> the wife has just thrown a virtual rotten egg at you through cyberspace (I had to say it's your fault to deflect some anger)


That makes two "victims" since I also took the bait on the Karajan live Salzburg Ring 1967-70 from operadepot sale prices yesterday.....Barbie is to blame


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> That makes two "victims" since I also took the bait on the Karajan live Salzburg Ring 1967-70 from operadepot sale prices yesterday.....Barbie is to blame


Drat. I should have been on commission!! Though in my defence I don't think you'll be disappointed.

Before the sale ends tonight I have downloaded Rienzi from a BBC broadcast in 1976 and Hollander from Bayreuth in 1965 with Thomas Stewart and Anja Silja. The Rienzi claims to be the most complete one extant. It is twice as long as the Heger and I think an hour longer than the studio one by Hollreiser. I shall keep the forum informed as to how good it is.


----------



## gardibolt

I'll probably order the Karajan before the sale closes tonight too---and the Rienzi, while I'm at it. I tried getting that one from opera-club but I could never get their website to work.

To change the subject completely, people rave about the 1953 Krauss Ring, and the 1955 Keilberth Ring. I see that Pristine offers a 1953 Krauss Parsifal (London, Vinay, Uhde, Mödl) from a few days before the Ring performance, and a 1955 Keilberth Dutchman (Varnay, Uhde, Lustig, Weber). Any opinions on these performances? I don't recollect seeing them discussed here though I can't say I have all 67 pages memorized....my memory's not what it used to be, I'm afraid.


----------



## Itullian

I'll be skipping the Karajan. I'll be sticking to Bayreuth recordings for my live Rings.
For artistic and budgetary reasons.


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> I'll probably order the Karajan before the sale closes tonight too---and the Rienzi, while I'm at it. I tried getting that one from opera-club but I could never get their website to work.
> 
> To change the subject completely, people rave about the 1953 Krauss Ring, and the 1955 Keilberth Ring. I see that Pristine offers a* 1953 Krauss Parsifal (London, Vinay, Uhde, Mödl) from a few days before the Ring performance*, and a 1955 Keilberth Dutchman (Varnay, Uhde, Lustig, Weber). Any opinions on these performances? I don't recollect seeing them discussed here though I can't say I have all 67 pages memorized....my memory's not what it used to be, I'm afraid.


That item managed to sneak into my shopping basket when I was not looking in last order from Pristine, before I knew it the button was pushed (just like Clayton) It is very good, I will put it on my play stack on CD player and report back.......also available in much cheaper version shown, check review from musicweb below

















http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/Aug10/wagner_paco043.htm

Also that 55 Keilberth Dutchman available in *stereo* Testament CD like the 55 Ring....


----------



## Itullian

Just ordered this....................










Per DA's recommendation. :tiphat:


----------



## Itullian

And my '53 Keilberth has shipped!!! :guitar:


----------



## Barbebleu

G


gardibolt said:


> I'll probably order the Karajan before the sale closes tonight too---and the Rienzi, while I'm at it. I tried getting that one from opera-club but I could never get their website to work.
> 
> To change the subject completely, people rave about the 1953 Krauss Ring, and the 1955 Keilberth Ring. I see that Pristine offers a 1953 Krauss Parsifal (London, Vinay, Uhde, Mödl) from a few days before the Ring performance, and a 1955 Keilberth Dutchman (Varnay, Uhde, Lustig, Weber). Any opinions on these performances? I don't recollect seeing them discussed here though I can't say I have all 67 pages memorized....my memory's not what it used to be, I'm afraid.


Don't hesitate. These are good.


----------



## howlingfantods

Barbebleu said:


> G
> 
> Don't hesitate. These are good.


co-sign. The Keilberth Hollander is my very favorite version--I have the Testament mastering, so I'm not sure how the Pristine sounds. I think Testament used the original stereo tape sources and Pristine used the stereo LPs from the '70s, so it's conceivable that the Testament is competitive even though Pristine is black magic. Absolutely get one of them though, this is the one to get for an opera that's been oddly unsuccessful in the studio despite a lot of contenders.

The Krauss Parsifal is also very good, although not good enough to knock off the Kubelik or the 1962 Kna in my ears--mostly because I prefer Hotter or Moll over Weber for Gurnemanz, as good as Weber is. The rest of the cast is outstanding though. I get impatient with Modl as Brunnhilde or Isolde but Kundry is her best role, Vinay has one of the better performances of the title role I've heard. London is great as Amfortas too.


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> I'll be skipping the Karajan. I'll be sticking to Bayreuth recordings for my live Rings.
> For artistic and budgetary reasons.


There's a very good 1976 Ring from Boulez. This is the actual centenary performance and not the 1980 one that was the official release.


----------



## Itullian

Barbebleu said:


> There's a very good 1976 Ring from Boulez. This is the actual centenary performance and not the 1980 one that was the official release.


I have the '80 set.


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> I have the '80 set.


Always room for both!


----------



## howlingfantods

Since we're talking about all these 50's bayreuth productions, there's something I've been wondering--Is there a technical term for that thing that Astrid Varnay does where she starts notes off like a semitone flat and sort of swoops up to the actual note? She does it a lot, it's a tic that I don't mind in smaller doses but do find kind of distracting after awhile.


----------



## Barbebleu

howlingfantods said:


> Since we're talking about all these 50's bayreuth productions, there's something I've been wondering--Is there a technical term for that thing that Astrid Varnay does where she starts notes off like a semitone flat and sort of swoops up to the actual note? She does it a lot, it's a tic that I don't mind in smaller doses but do find kind of distracting after awhile.


Is that not called portamento?


----------



## howlingfantods

Barbebleu said:


> Is that not called portamento?


Hm, I think of portamento as going from one written note to the next written note through a slide that's specifically called for by the composer, not as starting a note flatter than indicated on the score and gliding up to it. Am I just understanding the term too restrictively?


----------



## Barbebleu

howlingfantods said:


> Hm, I think of portamento as going from one written note to the next written note through a slide that's specifically called for by the composer, not as starting a note flatter than indicated on the score and gliding up to it. Am I just understanding the term too restrictively?


If it's not that then it's just lazy singing!


----------



## Itullian

I'm thinking DA must have the '53 Keilberth Ring by now.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> I'm thinking DA must have the '53 Keilberth Ring by now.


Tracking number says tomorrow 8/6/15.....I didn't go Amazon Prime instead saved a few more dollars with importcds

*Tonight the 1951 Parsifal Knap* (Bayreuth re-opening) like the incredible 1951 Gotterdammerung on Testament label sound quality here does not seem possible to be 1951, it is very good.......insanely cheap ZYX label.

*Crazy but the sound improves noticeably in Act III *with older Gurnemanz finding a dazed Kundry near his hut and off in the distance a knight approaches with a holy spear.....

Some people feel Ludwig Weber as Gurnemanz is a weak link compared to fellow cast of Windgassen, Modl, London, Uhde but he sounds pretty good to me......I suppose if we could put Hotter in there it would be even greater


----------



## Steatopygous

Barbebleu said:


> If it's not that then it's just lazy singing!


It's a surprisingly common device. Maybe it's easier to get to the note from just below rather than a clean attack. Singing experts on the forum will know. It's really common, for example, for the Valkyries to swoop up to their hojotohos rather than simply hitting the note - so much so that it's clearly acceptable to the cognoscenti. But I do prefer a clean hit on the note myself. Against that, I'm sure Varnay could do that if she wanted to.
Regards portamento, I agree with howlingfantods, though it's not necessarily written by the composer. Often when the composer calls for it, it is a glissando.


----------



## howlingfantods

Steatopygous said:


> It's a surprisingly common device. Maybe it's easier to get to the note from just below rather than a clean attack. Singing experts on the forum will know. It's really common, for example, for the Valkyries to swoop up to their hojotohos rather than simply hitting the note - so much so that it's clearly acceptable to the cognoscenti. But I do prefer a clean hit on the note myself. Against that, I'm sure Varnay could do that if she wanted to.
> Regards portamento, I agree with howlingfantods, though it's not necessarily written by the composer. Often when the composer calls for it, it is a glissando.


Yeah, I've definitely heard a lot of singers doing it occasionally, and I barely even register it. I notice it with Varnay just because she does it SO MUCH, to a detrimental frequency I think. I wish I could ignore it since otherwise, I like her performances quite a lot.


----------



## Woodduck

Varnay was a superb artist but she did have that bad habit of scooping (that's what singers call it). It annoys me too. It's jazz singing, not classical. Wagnerian jazz? The Valkyrie Blues? Hoooo Mama!

Occasionally a scoop can be expressive. Usually it's just lazy singing. Bad.

In the "Hojotoho," Wagner writes a slur to the high note. He wants a portamento there, which is a well-executed slide from one note to another. A classic performance is Frida Leider's from 1927; she also gives us the trill that Wagner asks for, which not many Brunnhildes can do. The Wotan here is the great Friedrich Schorr.


----------



## DarkAngel

Woodduck said:


> *Varnay was a superb artist* but she did have that bad habit of scooping (that's what singers call it). It annoys me too. It's jazz singing, not classical. Wagnerian jazz? The Valkyrie Blues? Hoooo Mama!
> 
> Occasionally a scoop can be expressive. Usually it's just lazy singing. Bad.
> 
> In the "Hojotoho," Wagner writes a slur to the high note. He wants a portamento there, which is a well-executed slide from one note to another. A classic performance is Frida Leider's from 1927; she also gives us the trill that Wagner asks for, which not many Brunnhildes can do. The Wotan here is the great Friedrich Schorr.


I do hear her use that technique where she sometimes uses a "sliding" effect to get to a high note, but I always accepted that as her style of singing, an artistic choice on her part to use as needed, the overall effect when you step back from any close up analysis is just thrilling and highly dramatic passionate performance......I have not heard another Brunnhilde that followed her impress me more including Nilsson, a great Wagner artist :angel:


----------



## gardibolt

DarkAngel said:


> Is this what you have, available in CD and mp3.........?
> 
> Looks like each opera is selected from best performances at Salzburg from 1967-70


Listened to the download of the 1970 Götterdämmerung from that set last night and was unimpressed. It sounds like it was dubbed off some ex-library LPs--very noisy in spots, and the music is too quiet. As for the performance, I'm glad it was cheap on sale. Ridderbusch is very entertaining as Hagen, and Christa Ludwig's Waltraute sparkles with desperation, but the rest are okay at best. The best you can say is they're singing the notes, but that's about as far as it goes. Dernesch is no actress, and Thomas just sounds tired and half-hearted about the whole thing. I don't know where Janowitz was standing, but for large chunks of the opera Gutrune is barely audible. Those who held off aren't missing anything. I'm glad it's a download and isn't taking up valuable space.

The Downes Rienzi is better---the sound is a little dodgy (I'd guess recorded off AM radio or something) but it sounds probably as good as it's ever going to unless/until BBC licenses the actual tapes out to someone like they did for Downes' versions of the first two Wagner operas. It's nice to have a version of something approximating the full opera.


----------



## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> I do hear her use that technique where she sometimes uses a "sliding" effect to get to a high note, but I always accepted that as her style of singing, an artistic choice on her part to use as needed, the overall effect when you step back from any close up analysis is just thrilling and highly dramatic passionate performance......I have not heard another Brunnhilde that followed her impress me more including Nilsson, a great Wagner artist :angel:


Scooping into notes from below is rarely an artistic choice. The worst offenders seem to be tenors, but I think high voices in general are more prone to it. In Varnay's case we're not talking about big slides, and certainly not about portamenti, but just a habit of hitting notes slightly from beneath. It isn't just high notes but a personal way of singing, and as a singer myself who never, ever did it I have to call it a bad habit. Maria Callas was adamant about this, and the greatest singers rarely did it. Of course our sensitivity to it will vary, and if it doesn't bother you that's great. I'll agree about Varnay's artistry - but Nilsson was by a small margin the better singer from the standpoint of vocal freedom and fastidiousness, never attacking notes from below or sliding up to them, not even the high Cs. And then there were Leider, Flagstad and Traubel - but we won't talk about them! Not today, anyway...


----------



## Barbebleu

howlingfantods said:


> Yeah, I've definitely heard a lot of singers doing it occasionally, and I barely even register it. I notice it with Varnay just because she does it SO MUCH, to a detrimental frequency I think. I wish I could ignore it since otherwise, I like her performances quite a lot.


At least it's not a heavy vibrato that sounds on some occasions like a yodel. That always gets on my wick.


----------



## Barbebleu

gardibolt said:


> Listened to the download of the 1970 Götterdämmerung from that set last night and was unimpressed. It sounds like it was dubbed off some ex-library LPs--very noisy in spots, and the music is too quiet. As for the performance, I'm glad it was cheap on sale. Ridderbusch is very entertaining as Hagen, and Christa Ludwig's Waltraute sparkles with desperation, but the rest are okay at best. Thhe best you can say is they're singing the notes, but that's about as far as it goes. Dernesch is no actress, and Thomas just sounds tired and half-hearted about the whole thing. I don't know where Janowitz was standing, but for large chunks of the opera Gutrune is barely audible. Those who held off aren't missing anything. I'm glad it's a download and isn't taking up valuable space.
> 
> The Downes Rienzi is better---the sound is a little dodgy (I'd guess recorded off AM radio or something) but it sounds probably as good as it's ever going to unless/until BBC licenses the actual tapes out to someone like they did for Downes' versions of the first two Wagner operas. It's nice to have a version of something approximating the full opera.


Ah well. Each to his own. My comments on another thread about who can possibly hear what someone else is hearing must hold especially true in this instance


----------



## gardibolt

DarkAngel said:


> Tracking number says tomorrow 8/6/15.....I didn't go Amazon Prime instead saved a few more dollars with importcds


*gasp* but but but but....

Oh, very well. Anxious to hear what you think.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> I'm thinking DA must have the '53 Keilberth Ring by now.












I do have it, and the listening has begun


----------



## The Conte

DarkAngel said:


> I do have it, and the listening has begun


My favourite Ring!

N.


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> I do have it, and the listening has begun


The suspense is killing me. How is it?


----------



## DarkAngel

DarkAngel said:


> I do have it, and the listening has begun


*The quick summary:* a really great Bayreuth Ring performance in truly excellent mono sound, essential purchase

During new Bayreuth era of 1950s there were two Ring productions each season, in 1953 Keilberth had first one and Clemens Krauss had the 2nd, this is the only year where both Rings have complete recordings according to booklet notes although as discussed here previously act 1 of Seigfried in Keilberth set is actually from Krauss performance

The mono sound quality here is excellent, far better than the Krauss Ring has received on Orfeo or Opera d Oro labels, almost no crowd noise, voices are very clear with body and tonal variation fully intact, even orchestra has remarkable detail and tonal variation......no murky congested boxy sound, extremely impressive overall. If you are willing to spend much more on Pristine XR Krauss you will have roughly the same sound quality level as this Pan Classics set at budget price levels! The packaging is just generic white paper sleeves for CDs and a very modest booklet in standard cardboard clamshell box

Hotter, Modl, Neidlinger are in top vocal form and provide endless insights in their respective roles, to hear them in clear sound in 1953 is just about as good as it gets (personally I prefer Astrid as Brunhilde) . I just recently listened to remastered Solti 1965 Walkure with Hotter, but to hear him in 1953 you will be amazed at his increased vocal color and agilty, just in another higher class here. You will notice that the Volsung twins are always changing during the 1950s as Weiland Wagner was never completely happy with results, 1953 features Vinay and Resnik which lasted only 1 season so high were the expectations back then, by todays singing standards they would be gods of Bayreuth

Windgassen makes his debut as Seigfried, a role he would dominate at Bayreuth for next 10+ years. Keilberth describes in his diary how Windgassen vocally was in top form and as Ring progressed his performance gained confidence and depth of character development after a tentative start. Remaining cast was comprised of best wagner singers during that time including Uhde, Greindl, Kuen, Malanuik etc.

Itullian is dying to know if the woodbird Rita Streich is up to his high standards, yes my son fear not she will not let you down!


----------



## gardibolt

I just got my 1955 Testament Keilberth and so far in Rheingold the sound is indeed terrific. I've acquired so many Rings lately thanks to these threads that I need to stop for a while to digest them. Plus I have Levine still in the box and another on the way. Oh, dear.

But now DA is making me lust after the 1953 Keilberth too.....


----------



## Itullian

Great review DA. Mine should be here today.

Thanks for the Woodbird. :tiphat:


----------



## Itullian

It's here! :guitar:

Nice shiny capbox. Love those.

Cool looking discs.

Nice booklet telling a little about the new Bayreuth.

And Rheingold sounding great!!!


----------



## Itullian

Hey DA. Did you see this?!


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> I just got my *1955 Testament Keilberth and so far in Rheingold the sound is indeed terrific*. I've acquired so many Rings lately thanks to these threads that I need to stop for a while to digest them. Plus I have Levine still in the box and another on the way. Oh, dear.
> 
> But now DA is making me lust after the 1953 Keilberth too.....


Yes your 55 Keilberth is the foundation of any good Wagner Ring collection, plus the packaging is very nice, love how each CD sleeve has unique BW photo taken from that performance


----------



## DarkAngel

> *The quick summary:* a really great Bayreuth Ring performance in truly excellent mono sound, essential purchase


One more thing about the excellent sound of 53 Keilberth, in the early 1950s Bayreuth the sound engineers would fine tune the recording set-up over several days as the Ring progresses since it was still a learning process with the new technology available, so it is the case here you will find *Gotterdammerung the best sounding.........very impressive
*



> Hey DA. Did you see this?!


That is for Figleaf and possibly Duck, I don't really listen to recordings before 1950 other than briefly for research perspective or curiousity


----------



## Barbebleu

That is for Figleaf and possibly Duck, I don't really listen to recordings before 1950 other than briefly for research perspective or curiousity[/QUOTE]

Count me in for this too. You might be missing out DA. What about the likes of Melchior, Traubel, Lehmann and Hotter in his pomp to name a few.


----------



## Itullian

A great sounding set all around like DA said.


----------



## Itullian

So hard to pick a favorite among all these great Rings.
I guess the 55 stereo Keilberth must take it?


----------



## Steatopygous

Is this 1953 Keilberth, $92 at Opera Depot,
http://operadepot.com/collections/j...eindl-neidlinger-uhde-keilberth-bayreuth-1953
the same as this one on Testament from Import CDs for $137
http://www.importcds.com/der-ring-des-nibelungen-14pc/749677141226?rel=nofollow
And if so, is there any reason to prefer one over the other apart from price?


----------



## Itullian

Steatopygous said:


> Is this 1953 Keilberth, $92 at Opera Depot,
> http://operadepot.com/collections/j...eindl-neidlinger-uhde-keilberth-bayreuth-1953
> the same as this one on Testament from Import CDs for $137
> http://www.importcds.com/der-ring-des-nibelungen-14pc/749677141226?rel=nofollow
> And if so, is there any reason to prefer one over the other apart from price?


NO
The 55 is stereo 137
The 53 is mono 92

The 53 is on Amazon for 42 now.


----------



## The Conte

Which of the releases of the 53 Keilberth has the best sound?

N.

P.S. I think most people prefer the 55 Keilberth (possibly because it's stereo and they prefer Varnay's Bruenhilde). I connect with Moedl's singing of Bruenhilde in a very personal way, so the 53 is my favourite. The main difference between the two sets is Stereo vs Mono and Varnay vs Moedl.


----------



## Clayton

DarkAngel said:


> ...although as discussed here previously act 1 of Seigfried in Keilberth set is actually from Krauss performance...


woops! I did not notice



DarkAngel said:


> ...Itullian is dying to know if the woodbird Rita Streich is up to his high standards, yes my son fear not she will not let you down!...


I love Rita Streich


----------



## Clayton

gardibolt said:


> ...But now DA is making me lust after the 1953 Keilberth too.....


It is such a good recording for a very reasonable price you might as well. Sell you microwave if you must but buy this.


----------



## Clayton

Eat my own words... I want to hear the '55 stereo Keilberth now...

I've got to stop visiting this thread. It could be the start of marital problems.


----------



## Steatopygous

Itullian said:


> NO
> The 55 is stereo 137
> The 53 is mono 92
> 
> The 53 is on Amazon for 42 now.


Aha! Many thanks for that clarification. I am off to Amazon right now!:tiphat:


----------



## Steatopygous

$49 by the time I got there. I ordered it. Hang the $7! I'll spare no expense.


----------



## DarkAngel

Clayton said:


> Eat my own words... *I want to hear the '55 stereo Keilberth now*...
> I've got to stop visiting this thread. It could be the start of marital problems.


I assumed that Clayton already had the 1955 stereo Keilberth Ring, yes it really is essential a foundation of any Wagner Ring collection, get to it lad......

In response to a couple posts above there is currently* only one way* to buy new CD sets of 55, 53 Keilberth Rings, they are both shown below:










1953 mono Keilberth, $39 Amazon USA sellers










1955 stereo Keilberth, $138 Amazon USA sellers


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> So hard to pick a favorite among all these great Rings.
> I guess the 55 stereo Keilberth must take it?


*My advice for collectors or serious wagner fans is just make the investment right away in the 1955 stereo Keilberth*

It will be the foundation of any collection since it has the greatest singers of 1950s new Bayreuth era all at very close to their peak vocal powers and in the best stereo sound, quality packaging and nice booklet, think of it as an investment. From there you can buy many other 1950s Rings very cheaply in very good sound on Myto and Walhall Eternity labels as we have done over the last year or so, I had no idea there this many great Rings available.......

If you want me to recommend next step from there, these two Rings are great sound and cheap price:
(these will only make you want more, more, more........)

1957 Knap - Walhall Eternity
1953 Keilberth - Pan Classics


----------



## howlingfantods

DarkAngel said:


> *My advice for collectors or serious wagner fans is just make the investment right away in the 1955 stereo Keilberth*
> 
> It will be the foundation of any collection since it has the greatest singers of 1950s new Bayreuth era all at very close to their peak vocal powers and in the best stereo sound, quality packaging and nice booklet, think of it as an investment. From there you can buy many other 1950s Rings very cheaply in very good sound on Myto and Walhall Eternity labels as we have done over the last year or so, I had no idea there this many great Rings available.......


Not bad advice, but I think I'd leave the 1955 Keilberth for third behind the Pristine Classical remasters for the 1953 Krauss and 1950 Furtwangler. The 1955 Keilberth cast overlaps a lot the Krauss, and while the Testament stereo Keilberth sounds a little better than the Pristine Krauss, and I like the 1955 Sieglinde a little more, Krauss has a more magnetic, dramatic and gripping take on the music. The 1955 Keilberth is great, don't get me wrong, but it's basically the same cast with slightly better sound and a slightly less gripping a take. The Krauss is a little sloppier though since it's a warts and all single performance with no patching.

Furtwangler in both his Scala and RAI recordings relied on a pretty different cast than the live Bayreuth recordings of that decade and in the Pristine remaster is actually very listenable now. The 1950 Scala is better cast, better played and better conducted--I feel like Furt is holding back in the RAI sessions, maybe because the band was pretty rough around the edges and he didn't want to push them too far. The Scala also has one of the all time great Brunnhildes in Flagstad, still in pretty good voice in 1950, where the RAI has Modl, who I find a little wearying in this part with her effortful high end. Frantz as Wotan in both, better sung in Scala. A couple of legendary prewar heldentenors split Siegfried duties, with Set Svanholm and Max Lorenz still sounding fresh and powerful. Some regrettable cuts but I can live with those.

That's just for "historical" sets though--by which I think we mean from before 1960 or so. I'd still get the Bohm from the very modern date of 1967 before any of the historical sets. My favorite performance, both from the pit and from the stage, and in obviously better sound than the sets from the 50s.


----------



## Barbebleu

howlingfantods said:


> That's just for "historical" sets though--by which I think we mean from before 1960 or so. I'd still get the Bohm from the very modern date of 1967 before any of the historical sets. My favorite performance, both from the pit and from the stage, and in obviously better sound than the sets from the 50s.


Remembering of course that it's actually a composite of 1966 and 1967. Walkure and Gotterdammerung 1966 and Rheingold and Siegfried 1967.


----------



## howlingfantods

Barbebleu said:


> Remembering of course that it's actually a composite of 1966 and 1967. Walkure and Gotterdammerung 1966 and Rheingold and Siegfried 1967.


fair point--read my former comment to say "the very modern dates of 1966 and 1967" 

I think I read once that they patched a cut from a later performance too, but I don't recall which cut and from which year.


----------



## Barbebleu

howlingfantods said:


> fair point--read my former comment to say "the very modern dates of 1966 and 1967"
> 
> I think I read once that they patched a cut from a later performance too, but I don't recall which cut and from which year.


The 1966 Walkure and Gotterdammerung are available if you are keen on having a Ring wholly from 1966.


----------



## DarkAngel

howlingfantods said:


> That's just for "historical" sets though--by which I think we mean from before 1960 or so. I'd still get the Bohm from the very modern date of 1967 before any of the historical sets. My favorite performance, both from the pit and from the stage, and in obviously better sound than the sets from the 50s.


I keep forgetting about Furtwangler's two Rings when discussing the various 1950s Rings, perhaps because they are outside of the Bayreuth system........I have both of them but don't really listen that often, the best part is that they do have singers that are not in the Bayreuth Rings so variety is good, for the 1950 Scala Ring own Pristine XR Walkure, Gotterdammerung CD sets, Andrew Rose did a sonic miracle on these

*Regarding Bohm Bayreuth Ring 1966-67.......*
Everyone should own it, very good overall but I much prefer the 1955 Keilberth mainly because of the singers for 3 main roles

*Bohm *- Theo Adam, Nilsson, Windgassen *Keilberth* - Hotter, Varnay, Windgassen

I understand there are Nilsson vs Varnay fans, they have a very different voice and style (my preference is for Varnay) but I haven't come across many who prefer Theo Adam to mid 1950s Hans Hotter hmmmmmm, and Windgassen 11 years younger with Keilberth was surely fresher and more vocally fluent compared to Bohm Ring near the end of his career........


----------



## Itullian

And I'd like to put in a word for the'60 Kempe Bayreuth Cycle with excellent sound and cast. :tiphat:


----------



## howlingfantods

DarkAngel said:


> I keep forgetting about Furtwangler's two Rings when discussing the various 1950s Rings, perhaps because they are outside of the Bayreuth system........I have both of them but don't really listen that often, the best part is that they do have singers that are not in the Bayreuth Rings so variety is good
> 
> Regarding Bohm Bayreuth Ring 1966-67.......
> Everyone should own it, very good overall but I much prefer the 1955 Keilberth mainly because of the singers for 3 main roles
> 
> *Bohm *- Theo Adam, Nilsson, Windgassen *Keilberth* - Hotter, Varnay, Windgassen
> 
> I understand there are Nilsson vs Varnay fans, they have a very different voice and style (my preference is for Varnay) but I haven't come across many who prefer Theo Adam to mid 1950s Hans Hotter hmmmmmm, and Windgassen 11 years younger with Keilberth was surely fresher and vocally fluent compared to Bohm Ring at the end of his career........


Yeah, Hotter bests Adam by a fair amount. As much as I like Adam in other things, his voice is a little light for the role and Hotter is uniquely great--that woofing delivery he had just really works for Wotan. I like Hotter far better than Frantz or Schorr or London or Stewart or anyone else I've heard in the role.

But I care more about the Brunnhilde than the Wotan and I prefer Nilsson over Varnay by at least as much as I prefer Hotter over Adam. For me, Nilsson is the greatest Brunnhilde I've heard--better than Flagstad, Traubel, Varnay, Modl, etc etc. Honestly, I think Flagstad is the only one who is really comparable. Nilsson's performance is most expressive and passionate on the Bohm, better than in the Solti or the Leinsdorf Walkure. I'm just echoing her own opinion by the way, and in this case, I think she's absolutely right.

I also disagree about Windgassen's performance. Actually I'd say in general, all the long running vets--Windgassen, Neidlinger, Greindl--shared across the majority of these Bayreuth recordings give more characterful and expressive performances in the Bohm than in their earlier run throughs. Greindl is an interesting case because his voice has picked up an odd hollow timbre by the late 60s but it actually really works for the role--this version is the scariest and most imposing Hagen I know of. Neidlinger is never less than fantastic as Alberich, but the way he spits out his words in the Bohm is just menacing to an even greater degree than in his 50's performances.

And this maybe a little controversial but I think Bohm's performance in the pit is the finest. He has a sense of flow and transitions and tension and release that is only really equaled by Furtwangler in 1950 and Krauss, and Krauss's recording is marred by numerous occasions where things go oddly slack (probably due to underrehearsing--some of the times this happens is when singers are coming in early or just losing their places and it sounds like Krauss starts just beating time waiting for everything to pull back together). I can understand someone preferring the Furtwangler Scala performance--the tradeoff is Furt's brooding mystery for Bohm's narrative drama. But I think Bohm's conducting is a significant notch above Keilberth's, who does much the same sort of thing Bohm's going for, but not as well.


----------



## Itullian

Wanna hear a GREAT Wotan?










Jerome Hines in this series will knock your socks off.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Wanna hear a GREAT Wotan?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jerome Hines in this series will knock your socks off.


Tully is right about Hines, I was not really familiar with him before but after buying the 60 Kempe Ring a very pleasant surprise, also a few other new voices in there compared to all the other 1950s Rings......poor guy gets no respect even his name on the cover is way down the list


----------



## howlingfantods

Yeah, I've been meaning to get that Kempe 1960, more for Uhde's Wotan than for Hines's actually, although I have heard snippets of Hines in the Walkure on Youtube--I think I recall a particularly nice Leb Wohl from him. I've read mixed things about the 1960 cycle as a whole so it's not high on my list, my reasoning being that if you hear mixed things from British critics about something produced by a conductor who spent his career mostly in England, it's probably pretty iffy.


----------



## DarkAngel

howlingfantods said:


> Yeah, I've been meaning to get that Kempe 1960, more for Uhde's Wotan than for Hines's actually, although I have heard snippets of Hines in the Walkure on Youtube--I think I recall a particularly nice Leb Wohl from him.* I've read mixed things about the 1960 cycle as a whole so it's not high on my list,* my reasoning being that if you hear mixed things from British critics about something produced by a conductor who spent his career mostly in England, it's probably pretty iffy.


The 60 Kempe Ring was one of our "great new finds" that we all liked from earlier in this thread, the sound is very good and the Myto CDs can be very cheap at Amazon USA........the 61 Kempe Ring we don't like as much with weaker sound quality


----------



## howlingfantods

DarkAngel said:


> The 60 Kempe Ring was one of our "great new finds" that we all liked from earlier in this thread, the sound is very good and the Myto CDs can be very cheap at Amazon USA........the 61 Ring we don't like as much with weaker sound quality


Oh, I'm not referring to comments from here--I mean like, Gramophone criticizes the recording (actually specifically calling out Hines and Uhde, along with Windgassen's Siegmund and Lohberg's Sieglinde) although they still of course reserve the highest praise for Kempe's masterful conducting--i mean a guy good enough to conduct at Covent Garden and be the principal at the RPO can't be faulted for a problematic recording .... 

This is the same rundown where they say that Bohm's recording is vague and unconnected, which is as far from correct as you can get, so by no means do I think this guy's opinion is the word of God or anything.

ETA - But yeah, if any of you are professional British music critics, *please* let me know so I can start applying my customary "huge pinch of salt to any recordings by someone British or who mostly performed in Britain" adjustment to your assessments :lol:


----------



## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> The 60 Kempe Ring was one of our "great new finds" that we all liked from earlier in this thread, the sound is very good and the Myto CDs can be very cheap at Amazon USA........the 61 Kempe Ring we don't like as much with weaker sound quality


The most exciting thing at Bayreuth in 1961 was James Milligan's Wanderer, fortunately captured on tape before he died of a heart attack four months later at age 33. There's only this bit on YouTube, but I heard the entire performance and it was marvelous.






He handles this dramatic music with the ease of a Lieder singer, and apparently he was as commanding physically as vocally. He made a big impression, and I suspect he might have become the best Wotan of his generation.

But is this performance part of "the" '61 Kempe _Ring_, or did I hear a transcript of a different performance (the Siegfried was Hans Hopf)?


----------



## DarkAngel

Woodduck said:


> The most exciting thing at Bayreuth in 1961 was James Milligan's Wanderer, fortunately captured on tape before he died of a heart attack four months later at age 33. There's only this bit on YouTube, but I heard the entire performance and it was marvelous.


You mentioned him a long time ago in this thread when we were talking about Vickers, I think he was Canadian also, see we don't forget......we just buy buy buy


----------



## Barbebleu

Am I wrong in thinking that a lot of our "posters", if that's the right term, are a little preoccupied with recording quality at the expense of interpretation. Having spent a lot of time listening to pre-electric recordings maybe my ear is less critical of slight failings in recording quality for recordings made in a live environment during the fifties. I can't say that I find the '61 Kempe Ring that bad in terms of sound. My opinion only so feel free to disagree but I won't be debating the issue. Not faulting those for whom the best recording available is of paramount importance but sometimes the overall impact is just as important if not more so. :devil:


----------



## gardibolt

Clayton said:


> It is such a good recording for a very reasonable price you might as well. Sell you microwave if you must but buy this.


Yeah, who am I kidding? $40 from importcds + $3.99 shipping. Yup.


----------



## gardibolt

I am willing to put up with lower sound quality for excellent performances---it doesn't get any better than Melchior. But I'm much less tolerant of poor sound quality for mediocre performances. It's a balance.

That said, I've gone through over half of the 1955 Keilberth and it really is terrific, and it sound like it was recorded yesterday. The only drawback I've heard is the noisy contraption in Nibelheim in Scene 2 of Rheingold. Jumped ahead and listened to the last act of Götterdämmerung and it's terrific. The Rhinemaidens' interaction with Siegfried is sassier than ever and has better give and take than just about any other version I've heard. Glad I accepted the coaxing and picked this up. It's first rate in both performance and recording quality, so what's not to love?


----------



## KirbyH

I don't really know if they count as historical or not, but there are two early 60s recordings that I cherish in particular.

One is the 62(?) reading of Tannhauser, with Silja/Windgassen/Bumbry - what a show! It uses the Paris version of the Overture and Venusberg music, but beyond that is Dresden. Philips' acoustic is very, very good, and for a live broadcast captures a ton of detail. 

The other (from the same year, I think) is Lohengrin with James King, Anja Silja, and Astrid Varnay. Everyone sounds wonderful here, but Varnay as Ortrud steals the show. Absolutely thrilling, and both reliably lead by Wolfgang Sawallisch. I don't know if they are available individually but for a time, they were available in a big box recorded live from Bayreuth, issued from Decca. It included the Bohm '66 Tristan and Ring along with Silvio Varviso's Meistersinger. Definitely worth seeking out the box for the performances of the early operas alone.


----------



## DarkAngel

KirbyH said:


> I don't really know if they count as historical or not, but there are two early 60s recordings that I cherish in particular.
> 
> One is the 62(?) reading of Tannhauser, with Silja/Windgassen/Bumbry - what a show! It uses the Paris version of the Overture and Venusberg music, but beyond that is Dresden. Philips' acoustic is very, very good, and for a live broadcast captures a ton of detail.
> 
> The other (from the same year, I think) is Lohengrin with* James King*, Anja Silja, and Astrid Varnay. Everyone sounds wonderful here, but Varnay as Ortrud steals the show. Absolutely thrilling, and both reliably lead by Wolfgang Sawallisch. I don't know if they are available individually but for a time, they were available in a big box recorded live from Bayreuth, issued from Decca. It included the Bohm '66 Tristan and Ring along with Silvio Varviso's Meistersinger. Definitely worth seeking out the box for the performances of the early operas alone.


We love both of those and have mentioned them several times in this thread, 62 Tannhauser Sawallisch with black venus Bumbry and the 62 Lohengrin Sawallisch actually has Jess Thomas as the swan knight, my favorite Lohengrin recording


----------



## gardibolt

I think my recent binge of listening to Maria Callas operas has substantially lowered my tolerance for opera singers who only sing their parts and don't perform them. Hence my wildly varying reactions to the 1970 Karajan Götterdämmerung and the 1955 Keilberth. The performers in the latter are really acting, not just singing.


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> I think my recent binge of listening to Maria Callas operas has substantially lowered my tolerance for opera singers who only sing their parts and don't perform them. Hence my wildly varying reactions to the 1970 Karajan Götterdämmerung and the 1955 Keilberth.* The performers in the latter are really acting, not just singing*.


That is why we love these 1950s Bayreuth Rings so much........


----------



## Bill H.

Hello--quick comments on several posts/recordings:

Ditto everything about the 1955 Keilberth Ring on Testament. My only complaint about it has nothing to do with the performance, but everything with the cost, especially because they did some stupid things about the splits between CDs, which added at least one disk unnecessarily to the whole set. Not a big deal if it was a budget label, which Testament is most certainly not. 

I am planning to get my own set of the '53 Keilberth, if only to compare with the Krauss. One of the things I most like about the Krauss are the non-musical things he adds into the staging--extra vocalizations such as laughs and such when the scene calls for it. It's gotten so that in many other performances I miss those staging additions. He was a master conductor of the theatre, and it shows in his one chance at doing the Ring for posterity. 

Have like most all of Kempe's work that I've gotten to hear to date, and the Rings he did sound like good ones to add to the Buy List.

The more I've been listening to parts of the Furtwängler La Scala version as redone by Pristine, the more I like it. I also managed to snag a complete original LP set of the Furtwängler RAI Ring from when it was first issued in the 1970s, and I hope to make a transfer of that as a future project.


----------



## gardibolt

norpete.com still hasn't restocked the 1960 Kempe (they only have Götterdämmerung in stock), but they do have a a complete 1962 Kempe on Myto with Nilsson as Brünnhilde in the last two and Varnay in Walküre. Anyone heard that one?


----------



## KirbyH

DarkAngel said:


> We love both of those and have mentioned them several times in this thread, 62 Tannhauser Sawallisch with black venus Bumbry and the 62 Lohengrin Sawallisch actually has Jess Thomas as the swan knight, my favorite Lohengrin recording


Jess Thomas, of course - I get that wrong every time. Pardon my blip.


----------



## Itullian

gardibolt said:


> norpete.com still hasn't restocked the 1960 Kempe (they only have Götterdämmerung in stock), but they do have a a complete 1962 Kempe on Myto with Nilsson as Brünnhilde in the last two and Varnay in Walküre. Anyone heard that one?


I haven't. But if that's the one with Wiener as Wotan , I'm out.


----------



## DavidA

DarkAngel said:


> We love both of those and have mentioned them several times in this thread, 62 Tannhauser Sawallisch with black venus Bumbry and the 62 Lohengrin Sawallisch actually has Jess Thomas as the swan knight, my favorite Lohengrin recording


Must confess my disappointment with the Sallawsich Tannhauser. the recording is somewhat distance like most recordings from Bayreuth. And frankly the opera itself is a bit of a dud imo.


----------



## gardibolt

Itullian said:


> I haven't. But if that's the one with Wiener as Wotan , I'm out.


It is. Thanks for the warning.


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> norpete.com still hasn't restocked the 1960 Kempe (they only have Götterdämmerung in stock), but they do have a a complete 1962 Kempe on Myto with Nilsson as Brünnhilde in the last two and Varnay in Walküre. Anyone heard that one?


Go to Ebay and importcds sells the 1960 Myto Kempe CDs with *free shipping*......like I told tully before it is free but just slower than normal because it is media mail (about 1 week)


----------



## gardibolt

Thanks for the tip, DA! My bank account, oy. So many Rings....

And now the Furtwängler 1950 La Scala Siegfried (Pristine) comes up randomly on the iPod (which has thousands of other recordings not Ring-related)....such a thrilling Forge Song. Have I said I love Act I of Siegfried? Yes, yes I have. And I still do.


----------



## howlingfantods

KirbyH said:


> I don't really know if they count as historical or not, but there are two early 60s recordings that I cherish in particular.
> 
> One is the 62(?) reading of Tannhauser, with Silja/Windgassen/Bumbry - what a show! It uses the Paris version of the Overture and Venusberg music, but beyond that is Dresden. Philips' acoustic is very, very good, and for a live broadcast captures a ton of detail.
> 
> The other (from the same year, I think) is Lohengrin with James King, Anja Silja, and Astrid Varnay. Everyone sounds wonderful here, but Varnay as Ortrud steals the show. Absolutely thrilling, and both reliably lead by Wolfgang Sawallisch. I don't know if they are available individually but for a time, they were available in a big box recorded live from Bayreuth, issued from Decca. It included the Bohm '66 Tristan and Ring along with Silvio Varviso's Meistersinger. Definitely worth seeking out the box for the performances of the early operas alone.


Agree on the Lohengrin, not so much on the Tannhauser. I was pretty disappointed with the singing by both Bumbry and Windgassen--I've admired Bumbry's Amneris and am a huge fan of Windgassen's Siegfried and Tristans, but found both pretty subpar on this recording, and I've never been a big fan of Silja who I find pretty shrill at times. The Lohengrin is better especially with Jess Thomas doing his usual good work as the knight, and the villains, Varnay and Vinay, the prior decade's soprano and tenors doing the mezzo and baritone thing.

Another Lohengrin worth checking out if you're actually interested in James King's take on the knight is the Kubelik, which pairs King with an incredibly beautiful Elsa by Janowitz. Gwyneth Jones and Thomas Stewart as satisfyingly powerful villains in that one, and with beautiful playing by the Bavarian Radio band. It's awfully close to the Kempe as the one to beat in my book, especially since for me, Janowitz is pretty consistently the only singer who can go toe to toe with Grummer for these beautiful, radiant roles like Elsa and Eva.



gardibolt said:


> I think my recent binge of listening to Maria Callas operas has substantially lowered my tolerance for opera singers who only sing their parts and don't perform them. Hence my wildly varying reactions to the 1970 Karajan Götterdämmerung and the 1955 Keilberth. The performers in the latter are really acting, not just singing.


That's pretty consistently my problem with Karajan's Wagner as a whole. He seems to conceive of these as almost like symphonic poems with sung parts instead of as stage dramas, so he seems to coach his singers for less emotion and characterization. My basis for this conclusion is that I know the singers on his recordings are capable of much more characterization and emotion in other recordings, but are unusually inexpressive and inert on Karajan's recordings. They're often quite beautiful but not especially dramatic.



Bill H. said:


> The more I've been listening to parts of the Furtwängler La Scala version as redone by Pristine, the more I like it.


Same here. I had mostly listened to the RAI before since my version of the Scala was just so wretched sounding. I like the Scala a lot more than the RAI as a performance, something I wasn't aware of since I could barely hear what was happening in the Scala recording before this remaster. I always thought that maybe I just didn't like Furtwangler's take on the Ring, now I'm concluding that I just don't like his take in the RAI recording.


----------



## Itullian

Just finished Act 3 of Walkure '53 Keilberth.
Love the slower temp for the Magic Fire music


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Just finished Act 3 of Walkure '53 Keilberth.
> Love the slower temp for the Magic Fire music


I think the most impressive Walkure act 3 I have heard is from the 52 Keilberth, Hotter and Varnay are so vivid and emotionally dramatic, vocally magnificent at the top of their game, how do you top this..........


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> I think the most impressive Walkure act 3 I have heard is from the 52 Keilberth, Hotter and Varnay are so vivid and emotionally dramatic, vocally magnificent at the top of their game, how do you top this..........


Yup, that's the one that sticks in my head.
I love Astrid in that one and Keilberth really nails the score too.
Breathtaking


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> Thanks for the tip, DA! My bank account, oy. So many Rings....
> 
> And now the Furtwängler 1950 La Scala Siegfried (Pristine) comes up randomly on the iPod (which has thousands of other recordings not Ring-related)....such a thrilling Forge Song. Have I said I love Act I of Siegfried? Yes, yes I have. And I still do.


That reminds me, most of the Myto wagner releases are on Spotify premium streaming - 320 kbps mp3 add free, this can bring relief to depleted bank account

No Pristine XR on Spotify


----------



## DarkAngel

Future release 9/11/2015 Amazon USA

This is not the same Walkure as the 1955 Testament label Ring, here we have Modl as Brunhilde (instead of Varnay) and sound is mono not stereo, price is very cheap

Tapes are from private collection of Martha Modl......


----------



## Itullian

Finally arrived


----------



## Clayton

DarkAngel said:


> ...Tapes are from private collection of Martha Modl......


?

Did she have a Sony Walkman stuffed in her pocket?

Oh wait, they didn't exist yet...

Did she have Tokyo Tsushin Kogyo magnetic tape sound recorder strapped to her back during the performance?


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> Future release 9/11/2015 Amazon USA
> 
> This is not the same Walkure as the 1955 Testament label Ring, here we have Modl as Brunhilde (instead of Varnay) and sound is mono not stereo, price is very cheap
> 
> Tapes are from private collection of Martha Modl......


You are the devil DA. Now downloaded from Amazon. Where will it all end.


----------



## Barbebleu

I have just finished listening again to the Keilberth '53 Rheingold. Well, in the main it is very good but a more intense listening has me questioning Erich Witte's Loge. He sings very well but unfortunately I don't think he always sings the notes that Wagner wrote. He is not singing flat or anything like that. He is just not singing what is written down. I compared him to Set Svanholm on the Solti studio set and Stolze on the Karajan studio set and Witte definitely goes off the rails quite often. Has anyone else noticed this or have I gone mad?


----------



## Peer Gynt

DarkAngel said:


> Future release 9/11/2015 Amazon USA
> 
> This is not the same Walkure as the 1955 Testament label Ring, here we have Modl as Brunhilde (instead of Varnay) and sound is mono not stereo, price is very cheap
> 
> Tapes are from private collection of Martha Modl......


Good spot, DA. Is this the same performance as this (except in mono)?

My willpower broke the other day and I ordered the Keilberth 53...


----------



## Peer Gynt

DarkAngel said:


> One more thing about the excellent sound of 53 Keilberth, in the early 1950s Bayreuth the sound engineers would fine tune the recording set-up over several days as the Ring progresses since it was still a learning process with the new technology available, so it is the case here you will find *Gotterdammerung the best sounding.........very impressive
> *


This is good to know DA. If the Keilberth 53 is in better sound than the (later) Krauss 53, one wonders about the backward sonic step in the audio set-up for the Krauss performance...


----------



## gardibolt

Yikes, it's bad enough to get multiple Rings in the same season---now we have to get multiple Rings by the same conductor in the same season? I echo Barbebleu....where does it end? How many of these things did they record? And why didn't Decca record the Walküre with the better cast in stereo? Or are there tapes rotting away in Decca's attic?

Reading the Testament booklet for the stereo 1955 Keilberth (I guess we have to distinguish them thusly now), it sure paints Walter Legge as the villain for signing participants to exclusive contracts so no one else could release a Bayreuth Ring. It's no wonder these recordings were suppressed for so long.


----------



## Barbebleu

G


Peer Gynt said:


> Good spot, DA. Is this the same performance as this (except in mono)?
> 
> My willpower broke the other day and I ordered the Keilberth 53...


I never realised that there were recordings of both cycles of the '55 Keilberth. I have the first cycle. Now I have to get the second. Donner und blitzen!!


----------



## Barbebleu

Oh, I see it's just Walkure. Panic over.


----------



## howlingfantods

gardibolt said:


> And why didn't Decca record the Walküre with the better cast in stereo?


I may be in the minority here but I think that's exactly what they did. I consider Brouwenstijn/Varnay significantly better than Varnay/Modl. I find Modl pretty wearying and Brouwenstijn is a much lovelier Sieglinde than Varnay.


----------



## Woodduck

howlingfantods said:


> I may be in the minority here but I think that's exactly what they did. I consider Brouwenstijn/Varnay significantly better than Varnay/Modl. I find Modl pretty wearying and Brouwenstijn is a much lovelier Sieglinde than Varnay.


I haven't heard these recordings but I'm completely in accord about the casting. I know Brouwenstijn's Sieglinde only on the studio Leinsdorf _Walkure_, where I find her very attractive and just the right sort of voice for the part. I can't imagine Varnay not wearing the pants in the Hunding household! Modl wearies me in about five minutes; her gusty, labored vocal production suits her only for neurotics and hysterics. The thought of those two beefy mezzos-cum-sopranos in the same cast has me reaching for the Pepto Bismol.


----------



## Peer Gynt

Barbebleu said:


> Oh, I see it's just Walkure. Panic over.


Sorry Barbebleu, there is also a Gotterdammerung.



Modl replaces Varnay.


----------



## Barbebleu

Peer Gynt said:


> Sorry Barbebleu, there is also a Gotterdammerung.
> 
> 
> 
> Modl replaces Varnay.


Drat. Thanks(I think) for that. Btw is the Walhall Walkure the same as the Testament one. That at least has saved me some money if it is.


----------



## DarkAngel

Peer Gynt said:


> Sorry Barbebleu, there is also a Gotterdammerung.
> 
> 
> 
> Modl replaces Varnay.


Great find PG and Barbie, a *stereo* 1955 Gotterdammerung and Walkure from Testament (not part of the complete 55 Testament Ring boxset) with Modl as Brunhilde instead of Varnay (this was 2nd ring in 1955), very pricey at Amazon USA, Presto UK

Gotterdammerung even has Hans Hotter singing Gunther part........



















I read that this 2nd Ring in 1955 was recorded as a "back-up" to 1st Ring that year (which we can buy now as the complete Testament Boxset) so there may exist somewhere still unreleased the Rhiengold and Siegfried from the 2nd Ring of 1955

Also note the Walkure above has highlights from a 55 stereo Tannhauser, so that maybe hiding somewhere as well......

I thought I was done buying 1950s Bayreuth Wagner, perhaps not :lol:


----------



## DarkAngel

Also 1955 Testament Keilberth there is a *stereo* Dutchman we have mentioned here before with Varnay, they had the top Decca recording team there same as Ring.........


----------



## howlingfantods

DarkAngel said:


> Also 1955 Testament Keilberth there is a *stereo* Dutchman we have mentioned here before with Varnay, they had the top Decca recording team there same as Ring.........


That's my favorite Dutchman. Uhde is so tormented... Outstanding.


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> Also 1955 Testament Keilberth there is a *stereo* Dutchman we have mentioned here before with Varnay, they had the top Decca recording team there same as Ring.........


Got this fortunately. Something I don't need to buy!


----------



## gardibolt

DarkAngel said:


> Great find PG and Barbie, a *stereo* 1955 Gotterdammerung and Walkure from Testament (not part of the complete 55 Testament Ring boxset) with Modl as Brunhilde instead of Varnay (this was 2nd ring in 1955), very pricey at Amazon USA, Presto UK
> 
> Gotterdammerung even has Hans Hotter singing Gunther part........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I read that this 2nd Ring in 1955 was recorded as a "back-up" to 1st Ring that year (which we can buy now as the complete Testament Boxset) so there may exist somewhere still unreleased the Rhiengold and Siegfried from the 2nd Ring of 1955
> 
> Also note the Walkure above has highlights from a 55 stereo Tannhauser, so that maybe hiding somewhere as well......
> 
> I thought I was done buying 1950s Bayreuth Wagner, perhaps not :lol:


Were these done with the Decca engineers also, or by the Bayreuth inhouse people? Does the booklet give credits?


----------



## Barbebleu

gardibolt said:


> Were these done with the Decca engineers also, or by the Bayreuth inhouse people? Does the booklet give credits?


On the Presto site I think credit is given to the Decca engineers in their blurb about the recordings. I seem to recall that there was some hope of Testament also having Rheingold and Siegfried.


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> Were these done with the Decca engineers also, or by the Bayreuth inhouse people? Does the booklet give credits?





> On the Presto site I think credit is given to the Decca engineers in their blurb about the recordings. I seem to recall that there was some hope of Testament also having Rheingold and Siegfried.


My understanding also is that all those stereo 55 Testament label recordings were done by Decca recording team at Bayreuth, I don't have the two shown above from 2nd Ring (Gotterdammerung, walkure), Presto UK has best price but even that is insane

Presto UK will have a sale on Testament label soon, but even then the sale price is still insane


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> My understanding also is that all those stereo 55 Testament label recordings were done by Decca recording team at Bayreuth,
> I don't have the two shown above from 2nd Ring (Gotterdammerung, walkure), Presto UK has best price but even that is insane
> 
> Presto will have a sale on Testament label soon, but even then the price is still insane


No higher than Pristine remasters DA.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> No higher than Pristine remasters DA.


I have those two stereo Testament sets in my Presto buy basket now, total with shipping to USA is $133, and that is getting very close to price of *complete* Krauss Ring from Pristine XR.........


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> I have those two stereo Testament sets in my Presto buy basket now, total with shipping to USA is $133, and that is very close to price of complete Krauss Ring from Pristine XR.........


Isnt the Krauss like 200 or so?

they are a bit less on Amazon USA and
a bit less on Amazon UK.


----------



## howlingfantods

Itullian said:


> Isnt the Krauss like 200 or so?
> 
> they are a bit less on Amazon USA and
> a bit less on Amazon UK.


slipcovered, it looks like 117 euros--minus the VAT so knock 20 off, 97 euros so it's like $105 or $110?


----------



## howlingfantods

howlingfantods said:


> slipcovered, it looks like 117 euros--minus the VAT so knock 20 off, 97 euros so it's like $105 or $110?


But get the Furty Scala first! As fantastically great as the Krauss is, the Furt is even greater. I can't stop listening to it. It might be The One Ring.


----------



## DavidA

Itullian said:


> Isnt the Krauss like 200 or so?
> 
> they are a bit less on Amazon USA and
> a bit less on Amazon UK.


I got the Krauss as a download for £6-99


----------



## DarkAngel

howlingfantods said:


> *slipcovered, it looks like 117 euros*--minus the VAT so knock 20 off, 97 euros so it's like $105 or $110?


Yes 117 euro for complete Ring 13 disc slipcovered, subtract VAT but add back shipping and you have almost a wash, if you buy one more opera (5 total) you can use the 10% discount code at bottom of the page



> they are a bit less on Amazon USA and a bit less on Amazon UK.


I will be patient and I am sure Presto UK will have 20% sale on Testament label soon


----------



## Itullian

All 4 add up to 182 euros to me 

Or 164 for the box


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> All 4 add up to 182 euros to me
> 
> Or 164 for the box


 Don't buy Pristine XR CDs in plastic jewel cases, buy them in paper slip covers and cut out artwork yourself and use your own jewel cases........saves you mucho dineros


----------



## DavidA

Wagnerians might want to check this out at the price

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00N9JC9US/ref=pe_313591_78915071_em_des


----------



## Barbebleu

DavidA said:


> Wagnerians might want to check this out at the price
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00N9JC9US/ref=pe_313591_78915071_em_des


I'd only be buying this for the Tannhauser but at the price it might be worth it.


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Don't buy Pristine XR CDs in plastic jewel cases, buy them in paper slip covers and cut out artwork yourself and use your own jewel cases........saves you mucho dineros


What artwork do you use?


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> What artwork do you use?


At the bottom of same page where you select Pristine XR item to buy there is a heading that says "CD covers to print" click on the picture and a PDF file will open with all artwork for your purchase.......make sure you view at 100% and print "full size"

Best to have color printer of course, also nice paper - I use 40# gloss coated paper so it looks high quality

Also all artwork is designed for use with 1 or 2CD jewel case, so a 4CD opera will print out two sets of artwork to be used with two 2CD jewel cases


----------



## DarkAngel

DavidA said:


> Wagnerians might want to check this out at the price
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00N9JC9US/ref=pe_313591_78915071_em_des


I must have 15-20 of those 10 CD boxsets now, cost the same as 1 full price CD.....they have one now for almost any well known singer or conductor


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> I must have 15-20 of those 10 CD boxsets now, cost the same as 1 full price CD.....they have one now for almost any well known singer or conductor


Are they cap boxes?
What are they like DA? :tiphat:


----------



## Peer Gynt

Itullian said:


> Are they cap boxes?


Yes, Jethro. Quite sturdy and durable wallet boxes which open from the bottom (as opposed to the right hand side). These Membran issues are generally without booklet but contain performer and work details on the individual cardboard sleeves for each disc. In my opinion, they are very much worth acquiring, because of (and despite) their ultra-cheapness.

Outside the 1950s range, but does anyone know this Elmendorff 1942 Gotterdammerung from Bayreuth? A priceless document of very grim times - it's the height of WW2 and injured German soldiers have been drafted onto the Green Hill to attend this monumental performance. Martha Fuchs' Immolation Scene is spinechilling, especially the darkness she brings to her lower voice.


----------



## howlingfantods

Peer Gynt said:


> Yes, Jethro. Quite sturdy and durable wallet boxes which open from the bottom (as opposed to the right hand side). These Membran issues are generally without booklet but contain performer and work details on the individual cardboard sleeves for each disc. In my opinion, they are very much worth acquiring, because of (and despite) their ultra-cheapness.
> 
> Outside the 1950s range, but does anyone know this Elmendorff 1942 Gotterdammerung from Bayreuth? A priceless document of very grim times - it's the height of WW2 and injured German soldiers have been drafted onto the Green Hill to attend this monumental performance. Martha Fuchs' Immolation Scene is spinechilling, especially the darkness she brings to her lower voice.


Yeah, that Elmendorff is fantastic. Shockingly good sound compared to the Met recordings of similar vintage, although the sound does get blown out when things get pretty loud. Big raw romantic conducting. Set Svanholm the best I've heard him. Martha Fuchs has one of those voices that sounds like a natural mezzo that's been pushed higher, a slightly effortful top but a rich bottom. Fuchs is also the Brunnhilde in the Seidler-Winkler Act 2 Walkure "completion" of the famous Bruno Walter Act 1, so you can kind of pretend that these two recordings are almost half of a fantastic cycle.


----------



## Barbebleu

The 1942 Götterdämmerung is a really good one. I can second Howlingfantods opinion on this. It is on YouTube if you want to try before you buy.


----------



## Peer Gynt

DavidA said:


> I got the Krauss as a download for £6-99


One of my most outstanding bargains ever was the Kraiss Ring on Opera 'Oro. New copy, £4 delivered, USA to UK.

(Mind you, this must be counter-balanced by other occasions of having paid through the nose (e.g. Keilberth 55 on Testament, Kna 56 on Orfeo).)


----------



## Peer Gynt

howlingfantods said:


> Elmendorff ... Big raw romantic conducting.


Couldn't have put it better myself, howlingfan.


----------



## gardibolt

Yikes, they are pricey. Amazon UK and DE are no better, I'm afraid.

EDIT: Not sure why this posted like seven hours after I wrote it, but ok, whatever. I was responding to DA on the second cycle Testament discs a page or more back.....


----------



## DavidA

Peer Gynt said:


> One of my most outstanding bargains ever was the Kraiss Ring on Opera 'Oro. New copy, £4 delivered, USA to UK.
> 
> (Mind you, this must be counter-balanced by other occasions of having paid through the nose (e.g. Keilberth 55 on Testament, Kna 56 on Orfeo).)


I must confess it goes against the grain to pay premium price for elderly recordings - or even modern recordings for that matter! :lol:


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> Yikes, they are pricey. Amazon UK and DE are no better, I'm afraid.
> 
> EDIT: Not sure why this posted like seven hours after I wrote it, but ok, whatever. I was responding to DA on the second cycle Testament discs a page or more back.....


The best option is to wait for Testament label sale at Presto UK, but even then the price is insane.........
(except for Clayton who is already in the doghouse sleeping on the couch, he he)

No pain no gain..........:lol:


----------



## DavidA

DarkAngel said:


> The best option is to wait for Testament label sale at Presto UK, but even then the price is insane.........
> (except for Clayton who is already in the doghouse sleeping on the couch, he he)
> 
> No pain no gain..........:lol:


I saw a Testament 2CD set of Rossini's Barber for only £3 the other day with the young de los Angeles. However, I read the rest of the cast isn't much cop.


----------



## Itullian

Listening to Walkure, Act 3.
It's good mono and it's amazing that I hear things that I don't hear in stereo.
What incredible music and singing.
Giving me chills!!


----------



## Itullian

Great Dutchman in very good sound.
London and Rysanek are awesome.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Great Dutchman in very good sound.
> London and Rysanek are awesome.


My favorite Dutchman and I have quite a few now, Sawallisch had a great run at Bayreuth from 1959-62 and turned out some classic Wagner performances including the 62 Lohengrin with Jess Thomas (my favorite Lohengrin)


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> My favorite Dutchman and I have quite a few now, Sawallisch had a great run at Bayreuth from 1959-62 and turned out some classic Wagner performances including the 62 Lohengrin with Jess Thomas (my favorite Lohengrin)


I still need to get the Knappy with Uhde.


----------



## Steatopygous

DarkAngel said:


> My favorite Dutchman and I have quite a few now, Sawallisch had a great run at Bayreuth from 1959-62 and turned out some classic Wagner performances including the 62 Lohengrin with Jess Thomas (my favorite Lohengrin)


Yes, probably my favourite Lohengrin too.


----------



## Faustian

Itullian said:


> Great Dutchman in very good sound.
> London and Rysanek are awesome.


I recently purchased this myself for a ridiculously good price (under $10) to supplement my only other audio recording of the opera, the one with Behrens and Hale under Dohnányi. I'm excited to hear it. Out of curiosity, does it it use the three-act or one act-version, and the original ending or the revised "redemptive" ending?


----------



## Itullian

Faustian said:


> I recently purchased this myself for a ridiculously good price (under $10) to supplement my only other audio recording of the opera, the one with Behrens and Hale under Dohnányi. I'm excited to hear it. Out of curiosity, does it it use the three-act or one act-version, and the original ending or the revised "redemptive" ending?


The original ending.
The one thing I don't like about Sawallisch is his like of abrupt endings.
I really don't like his ending here.


----------



## Itullian

On the way............


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Listening to Walkure, Act 3.
> It's good mono and it's amazing that I hear things that I don't hear in stereo.
> What incredible music and singing.
> Giving me chills!!


Price keeps falling, $33 now at Amazon USA sellers and $38 Prime



> On the way............


I like that Dutchman also, I have it in the older artwork, DFD as the Dutchman and a previously unknown to me Senta in Marianne Schech


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Price keeps falling, $33 now at Amazon USA sellers and $38 Prime
> 
> I like that Dutchman also, I have it in the older artwork, DFD as the Dutchman and a previously unknown to me Senta in Marianne Schech


Gotta hear DFD and Wunderlich.


----------



## gardibolt

DarkAngel said:


> Price keeps falling, $33 now at Amazon USA sellers and $38 Prime


But of course! I placed my order at $39 + shipping. Still hasn't shown up and the price already plunges.


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Price keeps falling, *$33 now at Amazon USA sellers *and $38 Prime
> 
> I like that Dutchman also, I have it in the older artwork, DFD as the Dutchman and a previously unknown to me Senta in Marianne Schech


What a deal....................


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> Gotta hear DFD and Wunderlich.


It's a pretty fine cast and Konwitschny is an excellent Wagner conductor. I have this on vinyl that I bought from a charity shop about , my goodness, twenty five years ago. I also have it digitally although I am not above playing stuff on vinyl when I have the time. There is always something comforting about lifting the disc out of the box and placing it on the turntable, lowering the arm and sitting back and letting that warm analogue sound wash over you. There speaks the secret Luddite in me. :lol:


----------



## Steatopygous

Itullian said:


> Gotta hear DFD and Wunderlich.


True. But this is surely the Wagner opera that gives the tenor the least to do. (and some of the good stuff goes to the steersman)


----------



## gardibolt

Broke down and ordered the 2nd cycle Götterdämmerung Kleiberth 1955. It's 28 pounds after removing VAT on amazon.co.uk. But the Walküre from that set is still insanely expensive (63 pounds) so I think I'll see how I like this one before I give that recording any serious consideration--especially since the Rheingold and Siegfried are still MIA anyway. It makes no sense to me why that's more than twice as expensive as the fourth opera. Who knows how Testament figures out its pricing?


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> Broke down and ordered the 2nd cycle Götterdämmerung Kleiberth 1955.* It's 28 pounds *after removing VAT on amazon.co.uk. But the Walküre from that set is still insanely expensive (63 pounds) so I think I'll see how I like this one before I give that recording any serious consideration--especially since the Rheingold and Siegfried are still MIA anyway. It makes no sense to me why that's more than twice as expensive as the fourth opera. Who knows how Testament figures out its pricing?


That is insane.......Did you find a used copy for 55 Gotterdammerung, why so much cheaper than Walkure?

I advise patience, in the next 3 months there will be a sale on Testament label at Presto UK, even then only a fool would pay those outrageous prices :lol:


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> That is insane.......Did you find a used copy for 55 Gotterdammerung, why so much cheaper than Walkure?
> 
> I advise patience, in the next 3 months there will be a sale on Testament label at Presto UK, even then *only a fool *would pay those outrageous prices :lol:


The perfect fool


----------



## gardibolt

DarkAngel said:


> That is insane.......Did you find a used copy for 55 Gotterdammerung, why so much cheaper than Walkure?
> 
> I advise patience, in the next 3 months there will be a sale on Testament label at Presto UK, even then only a fool would pay those outrageous prices :lol:


No, that's the new price from Amazon UK itself.


----------



## Steatopygous

Major excitement today in the Steatopygous household, or at least one member of it. 
Special delivery brought the new Andris Nelsons/Boston Shostakovich 10 and an 11-CD set of "Great Sibelius Recordings:, including Flagstad (songs) and Nilsson (ditto), for review. So what, you ask.
Ordinary post brought together the 1953 KEILBERTH RING!!! pictured at the top of this page of the thread AND the WAGNER'S VISION BAYREUTH TRADITION set, 50 CDs. 
Oh happy day! Poor old Shostakovich. Straight out of the CD player in favour of 62-year-old Rheingold.


----------



## Barbebleu

T


Steatopygous said:


> Major excitement today in the Steatopygous household, or at least one member of it.
> Special delivery brought the new Andris Nelsons/Boston Shostakovich 10 and an 11-CD set of "Great Sibelius Recordings:, including Flagstad (songs) and Nilsson (ditto), for review. So what, you ask.
> Ordinary post brought together the 1953 KEILBERTH RING!!! pictured at the top of this page of the thread AND the WAGNER'S VISION BAYREUTH TRADITION set, 50 CDs.
> Oh happy day! Poor old Shostakovich. Straight out of the CD player in favour of 62-year-old Rheingold.


Good choices, not least for the Shostakovich and Sibelius. Two of my favourite composers.


----------



## Steatopygous

Barbebleu said:


> T
> 
> Good choices, not least for the Shostakovich and Sibelius. Two of my favourite composers.


Thanks! 
I was really enjoying the Shostakovich, but then I really enjoyed the Rheingold too. 
Sibelius, oddly, has never grabbed me - apart from a few works. It's not that I don't like him, but that I never got round to him seriously yet, never immersed myself in him. Apart from the violin concerto. Yet when I do listen, I enjoy it. I'll get there, maybe via this set. More a matter of time than anything. Haven't got too much into any Scandinavians. Heard Nielsen's Nonet, op1, in concert last week - very impressed indeed. But that's because - to get this post back on thread - I listen much more to certain Germans. If only each day lasted 72 hours.


----------



## gardibolt

My 1953 Keilberth arrived in the post yesterday too, but I didn't have a chance to even open it. :/ Found out that when I ripped the 1952 Keilberth Götterdämmerung to iTunes I boogered it all up so I spent what little free time I had last night fixing that instead. I also found out that my public library has that big blue box of Great Performances from Bayreuth so I can check it out and see if I think it's worth acquiring. Wheeee!


----------



## DarkAngel

Steatopygous said:


> Major excitement today in the Steatopygous household, or at least one member of it.
> Special delivery brought the new Andris Nelsons/Boston Shostakovich 10 and an 11-CD set of "Great Sibelius Recordings:, including Flagstad (songs) and Nilsson (ditto), for review. So what, you ask.
> Ordinary post brought together the 1953 KEILBERTH RING!!! pictured at the top of this page of the thread AND the *WAGNER'S VISION BAYREUTH TRADITION set, 50 CDs. *
> Oh happy day! Poor old Shostakovich. Straight out of the CD player in favour of 62-year-old Rheingold.


Let me pound the table once more for this great 50 CD boxset, each wagner opera from new Bayreuth 1950s has a complete performance (some have two complete) followed by collection of older selected highlights of that opera by famous past singers. These operas are well selected and represent some of the very best performances you will hear of each opera with the great singers of 1950s new Bayreuth era.......buy buy buy


----------



## howlingfantods

DarkAngel said:


> Let me pound the table once more for this great 50 CD boxset, each wagner opera from new Bayreuth 1950s has a complete performance (some have two complete) followed by collection of older selected highlights of that opera by famous past singers. These operas are well selected and represent some of the very best performances you will hear of each opera with the great singers of 1950s new Bayreuth era.......buy buy buy


Some really great ones too, that Matacic Lohengrin is terrific. Which Kna Parsifal do they put on there? and which Sawallisch Hollander? I can't tell from looking at the back cover on Amazon.

I'll probably never get it since I already own most of the recordings but if you don't, it is a tremendous deal.


----------



## DarkAngel

howlingfantods said:


> Some really great ones too, that Matacic Lohengrin is terrific. Which Kna Parsifal do they put on there? and which Sawallisch Hollander? I can't tell from looking at the back cover on Amazon.
> 
> *I'll probably never get it since I already own most of the recordings but if you don't, it is a tremendous deal*.


Don't let that stop you, I think I own most of them individually also, but great to have them all together with the selected historical highlights so organized.......like a Wagner research project :lol:

Sorry at work now so can't answer questions about specific versions in the boxset (kept at home)


----------



## Itullian

^^^^^
Life is full of tough decisions sooooo
since I have much of the above box
I'm saving my pesos for the new Solti re master.


----------



## Clayton

I just received the OperaDepot Karajan Salzburg

Das Rheingold has gone in the CD player; good sound (a little bit of noise on the Sennheisers) and loving it so far...


----------



## Clayton

Clayton said:


> I just received the OperaDepot Karajan Salzburg
> 
> Das Rheingold has gone in the CD player; good sound (a little bit of noise on the Sennheisers) and loving it so far...


slight downgrade on sound from good to good to okay-good (sounds a bit like the shipping forecast) but I really like the DFD Wotan.


----------



## Clayton

and the Zoltan Alberich


----------



## Clayton

and the colour and dynamic of Berliner Philharmoniker/Karajan


----------



## Clayton

I should be calling pumpkin time but couldn't resist starting on Die Walküre

err

just flipped from stereo to mono


----------



## Barbebleu

Clayton said:


> I should be calling pumpkin time but couldn't resist starting on Die Walküre
> 
> err
> 
> just flipped from stereo to mono


Yes there are some strange moments in this cycle but overall I just really like this Salzburg/Karajan Ring. Gardibolt has other thoughts on the matter but c'est la vie!


----------



## Itullian

Clayton said:


> I should be calling pumpkin time but couldn't resist starting on Die Walküre
> 
> err
> 
> just flipped from stereo to mono


Huh? Stereo to mono?


----------



## gardibolt

My guess is the mono bits are patches in from rehearsals or other performances. Or maybe one of the mikes was on the fritz.


----------



## Barbebleu

gardibolt said:


> My guess is the mono bits are patches in from rehearsals or other performances. Or maybe one of the mikes was on the fritz.


I favour the dud mikes theory. The performance quality sounds quite even to me.


----------



## Barbebleu

Amazon.co.uk have just put this on the site for release on 2nd October. I have pre-ordered it.

If you can't make out the picture it is Meistersinger, Bayreuth 1960 with Knappertsbusch, Greindl as Sachs, Adam as Pogner, Grummer as Eva, Windgassen as Walther, Stolze as David ,Karl Schmitt Walter as Beckmesser and Elisabeth Schartel as Magdalene.


----------



## howlingfantods

Barbebleu said:


> View attachment 73977
> 
> Amazon.co.uk have just put this on the site for release on 2nd October. I have pre-ordered it.
> 
> If you can't make out the picture it is Meistersinger, Bayreuth 1960 with Knappertsbusch, Greindl as Sachs, Adam as Pogner, Grummer as Eva, Windgassen as Walther, Stolze as David ,Karl Schmitt Walter as Beckmesser and Elisabeth Schartel as Magdalene.


Ooh Greindl as Sachs. I bet that's the most menacing "Jerum, jerum" of all time.


----------



## gardibolt

Orfeo really needs to work on their cover art. Everything of theirs looks identical to me. It's carrying branding mania a bit far.


----------



## Barbebleu

howlingfantods said:


> Ooh Greindl as Sachs. I bet that's the most menacing "Jerum, jerum" of all time.


When this Sachs boxes your ears they stay boxed!! Too bad David, better just staying an apprentice, eh?


----------



## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> View attachment 73977
> 
> Amazon.co.uk have just put this on the site for release on 2nd October. I have pre-ordered it.
> 
> If you can't make out the picture it is Meistersinger, Bayreuth 1960 with Knappertsbusch, Greindl as Sachs, Adam as Pogner, Grummer as Eva, Windgassen as Walther, Stolze as David ,Karl Schmitt Walter as Beckmesser and Elisabeth Schartel as Magdalene.


I have owned that for several years now on Myto label........










Before I did the "insane thing" and paid the astronomical price for Kubelik Meister I would would tell Itullian I would never pay that high price because I could buy three cheaper great Bayreuth Meisters (like the one above) for the same price......and I did :lol:


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> I have owned that for several years now on Myto label........


What's your valued opinion? Or are you like me DA, and it has been so long that its detail has receded into the mists of time.:lol:


----------



## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> What's your valued opinion? Or are you like me DA, and it has been so long that its detail has receded into the mists of time.:lol:


In the favorite CD/DVD voting thread I picked this for my Meister selection, almost everyone else went for the Kubelik, a very worthy Meister especially at reduced price.......very good sound

Check the "jerum jerum"


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> In the favorite CD/DVD voting thread I picked this for my Meister selection, almost everyone else went for the Kubelik, a very worthy Meister especially at reduced price.......


That's good enough for me DA.


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> In the favorite CD/DVD voting thread I picked this for my Meister selection, almost everyone else went for the Kubelik, a very worthy Meister especially at reduced price.......
> 
> Check the "jerum jerum"


I see that an Amazon market place dealer has the MYTO for £16.69 plus £1.26 postage. So much for the Orfeo!! now cancelled.


----------



## The Conte

DarkAngel said:


> In the favorite CD/DVD voting thread I picked this for my Meister selection, almost everyone else went for the Kubelik, a very worthy Meister especially at reduced price.......very good sound
> 
> Check the "jerum jerum"


Greindl is a singer that I like a lot. I've only heard the 'Jerum! Jerum!' above and it's wonderful. However, I don't think his voice is right for Sachs. It's like Waltraud Meier's Sieglinde, wonderfully sung, but it's not a mezzo role (see Sieglinde voice type thread).

N.


----------



## Itullian

The Conte said:


> Greindl is a singer that I like a lot. I've only heard the 'Jerum! Jerum!' above and it's wonderful. However, I don't think his voice is right for Sachs. It's like Waltraud Meier's Sieglinde, wonderfully sung, but it's not a mezzo role (see Sieglinde voice type thread).
> 
> N.


The cast is a little different here, but I think it works fine.
It's a great listen.


----------



## Itullian

So what have you bought lately DA?
Not holding out on us are you?


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> So what have you bought lately DA?
> Not holding out on us are you?


Guilty as charged........

Waiting for Testament sale at Presto UK, and then I may loose my mind and buy 55 Modl Ring performances (2nd ring of 55)
*
I did get shipping notice from Pristine XR.......*
on the way are the remaining missing operas to make complete 53 Krauss and 50 Furtwangler Rings, plus 52 Tristan (Furtwangler), plus latest Callas Medea


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Guilty as charged........
> 
> Waiting for Testament sale at Presto UK, and then I may loose my mind and buy 55 Modl Ring performances (2nd ring of 55)
> *
> I did get shipping notice from Pristine XR.......*
> on the way are the remaining missing operas to make complete 53 Krauss and 50 Furtwangler Rings, plus 52 Tristan (Furtwangler), plus latest Callas Medea


Ah, I knew it 
DA is never idle for long.
Those are great choices. :tiphat:


----------



## howlingfantods

DarkAngel said:


> In the favorite CD/DVD voting thread I picked this for my Meister selection, almost everyone else went for the Kubelik, a very worthy Meister especially at reduced price.......very good sound
> 
> Check the "jerum jerum"


Wow, that really is a sinister Jerum jerum. He sounds like he's singing about vanquishing Eve in battle, not about making her some shoes.

The Kubelik is expensive but it's sooo worth it.


----------



## gardibolt

If you keep checking the Amazon listings and eBay you can find the Kubelik at a reasonable price eventually. I scored a used one for around $20.


----------



## Itullian

gardibolt said:


> If you keep checking the Amazon listings and eBay you can find the Kubelik at a reasonable price eventually. I scored a used one for around $20.


20 d would be an amazing price for that.


----------



## howlingfantods

Itullian said:


> 20 d would be an amazing price for that.


Another inexpensive option that is also extremely fantastic is the Knappertsbusch studio recording from 1950/51, if you don't have that one yet. I picked it up pretty recently--it's the only recording I've heard that I think rates as highly as the Kubelik--an even better Sachs in Schoffler (although Stewart on Kubelik is also very fine). Guden and Treptow are also terrific, although not quite as beautiful and ardent as Janowitz and Konya on the Kubelik.









Schoffler might be my favorite Sachs I've heard. Although Woodduck will probably disapprove since I haven't listened to the Bodanzky with Schorr in the role yet. I definitely prefer these warmer, more genial singers over the great booming Wotans--I find Hotter, London, Frantz, etc all wrong for the role, too dark and humorless for the cobbler-poet. And I always find it bizarre when the Alberichs or Hagens or Fafners try the part--like I feel like I should be yelling at Eva to run away from those villains before they eat her soul.


----------



## Itullian

howlingfantods said:


> Another inexpensive option that is also extremely fantastic is the Knappertsbusch studio recording from 1950/51, if you don't have that one yet. I picked it up pretty recently--it's the only recording I've heard that I think rates as highly as the Kubelik--an even better Sachs in Schoffler (although Stewart on Kubelik is also very fine). Guden and Treptow are also terrific, although not quite as beautiful and ardent as Janowitz and Konya on the Kubelik.
> 
> View attachment 74071
> 
> 
> Schoffler might be my favorite Sachs I've heard. Although Woodduck will probably disapprove since I haven't listened to the Bodanzky with Schorr in the role yet. I definitely prefer these warmer, more genial singers over the great booming Wotans--I find Hotter, London, Frantz, etc all wrong for the role, too dark and humorless for the cobbler-poet. And I always find it bizarre when the Alberichs or Hagens or Fafners try the part--like I feel like I should be yelling at Eva to run away from those villains before they eat her soul.


But it sounds terrible to me. Doesn't it sound very thin to you?


----------



## howlingfantods

Itullian said:


> But it sounds terrible to me. Doesn't it sound very thin to you?


Terrible might be a bit strong--it's not great sound but it's not bad in my ears, and I find it tolerable enough to be listenable. But it's definitely not as sumptuous and present as the sound on the Kubelik.

If you don't want to buy it, it's on youtube--it's definitely worth a listen.


----------



## Woodduck

howlingfantods said:


> Another inexpensive option that is also extremely fantastic is the Knappertsbusch studio recording from 1950/51, if you don't have that one yet. I picked it up pretty recently--it's the only recording I've heard that I think rates as highly as the Kubelik--an even better Sachs in Schoffler (although Stewart on Kubelik is also very fine). Guden and Treptow are also terrific, although not quite as beautiful and ardent as Janowitz and Konya on the Kubelik.
> 
> View attachment 74071
> 
> 
> Schoffler might be my favorite Sachs I've heard. Although Woodduck will probably disapprove since I haven't listened to the Bodanzky with Schorr in the role yet. I definitely prefer these warmer, more genial singers over the great booming Wotans--I find Hotter, London, Frantz, etc all wrong for the role, too dark and humorless for the cobbler-poet. And I always find it bizarre when the Alberichs or Hagens or Fafners try the part--like I feel like I should be yelling at Eva to run away from those villains before they eat her soul.


Never fear! I'm with you on Schoeffler, though I don't necessarily share your dislike of those other gents you mention. I have the Kempe EMI Meistersinger, and although Frantz isn't a favorite voice of mine and is slightly past his best, I find him a strong and sympathetic Sachs and not at all scary. Schorr is still unique, though, and his "bel canto" singing of the role should be heard by everyone.


----------



## Itullian

howlingfantods said:


> Terrible might be a bit strong--it's not great sound but it's not bad in my ears, and I find it tolerable enough to be listenable. But it's definitely not as sumptuous and present as the sound on the Kubelik.
> 
> If you don't want to buy it, it's on youtube--it's definitely worth a listen.


Thank you very much. Schoffler is indeed a great Sachs. That orchestra sound is a killer though.


----------



## DarkAngel

howlingfantods said:


> Schoffler might be my favorite Sachs I've heard. Although Woodduck will probably disapprove since I haven't listened to the Bodanzky with Schorr in the role yet. I definitely prefer these warmer, more genial singers over the great booming Wotans--*I find Hotter, London, Frantz, etc all wrong for the role, too dark and humorless for the cobbler-poet.* *And I always find it bizarre when the Alberichs or Hagens or Fafners try the part*--like I feel like I should be yelling at Eva to run away from those villains before they eat her soul.


I find those singers can do a fine job as Sachs, they are smart highly skilled wagner singers and know how adjust the voice and style to play each different character, just because they are famous Wotans does not mean they cannot be a great Sachs, they can dial it back and change character......everyone has their own favorites plus I like the variety of styles 

And speaking of those "scary" Sachs I just placed an order for this 57 Bayreuth Meister, Sachs is Gustav Neidlinger!

Very cheap at Amazon USA sellers ( $7.30!!! ), and we know from from 57 Knap Ring that excellent sound was being obtained at that time at Bayreuth


----------



## Itullian

^^^Can't go wrong with Grummer.


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> I find those singers can do a fine job as Sachs, they are smart highly skilled wagner singers and know how adjust the voice and style to play each different character, just because they are famous Wotans does not mean they cannot be a great Sachs, they can dial it back and change character......everyone has their own favorites plus I like the variety of styles
> 
> And speaking of those "scary" Sachs I just placed an order for this 57 Bayreuth Meister, Sachs is Gustav Neidlinger!
> 
> Very cheap at Amazon USA sellers ( $7.30!!! ), and we know from from 57 Knap Ring that excellent sound was being obtained at that time at Bayreuth


Here you go Alberich as Sachsy.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Here you go Alberich as Sachsy.


Nice, who would have thought Niedlinger as Sachs......sound is very good even loud chorus! 
Did you see that price for 4CD set, amazing!


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Nice, who would have thought Niedlinger as Sachs......sound is very good even loud chorus!
> Did you see that price for 4CD set, amazing!


Yeah, it sounds great.
Great find DA!
On my list :tiphat:


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> I find those singers can do a fine job as Sachs, they are smart highly skilled wagner singers and know how adjust the voice and style to play each different character, just because they are famous Wotans does not mean they cannot be a great Sachs, they can dial it back and change character......everyone has their own favorites plus I like the variety of styles
> 
> And speaking of those "scary" Sachs I just placed an order for this 57 Bayreuth Meister, Sachs is Gustav Neidlinger!
> 
> Very cheap at Amazon USA sellers ( $7.30!!! ), and we know from from 57 Knap Ring that excellent sound was being obtained at that time at Bayreuth


This is not bad. Cluytens conducting and a great cast. Cluytens shared Parsifal duties with Knappertsbusch that year. It would be interesting if there was a recording of that somewhere!


----------



## howlingfantods

Itullian said:


> ^^^Can't go wrong with Grummer.


If you don't already have the Kempe, that's a good place to get Grummer's take on the role. Frantz is a little serious for me as Sachs and Schock is only ok as Walt, but otherwise it's a fabulous recording.


----------



## gardibolt

Barbebleu said:


> This is not bad. Cluytens conducting and a great cast. Cluytens shared Parsifal duties with Knappertsbusch that year. It would be interesting if there was a recording of that somewhere!


I expect that Walhall will issue it at some point....they seem to be finding all sorts of interesting things buried here and there.


----------



## Barbebleu

gardibolt said:


> I expect that Walhall will issue it at some point....they seem to be finding all sorts of interesting things buried here and there.


Won't hold my breath waiting though!!


----------



## DarkAngel

howlingfantods said:


> Another inexpensive option that is also extremely fantastic is the Knappertsbusch studio recording from 1950/51, if you don't have that one yet. I picked it up pretty recently--it's the only recording I've heard that I think rates as highly as the Kubelik--an even better Sachs in Schoffler (although Stewart on Kubelik is also very fine). Guden and Treptow are also terrific, although not quite as beautiful and ardent as Janowitz and Konya on the Kubelik.
> 
> View attachment 74071
> 
> 
> *Schoffler might be my favorite Sachs I've heard.* Although Woodduck will probably disapprove since I haven't listened to the Bodanzky with Schorr in the role yet. I definitely prefer these warmer, more genial singers over the great booming Wotans--I find Hotter, London, Frantz, etc all wrong for the role, too dark and humorless for the cobbler-poet. And I always find it bizarre when the Alberichs or Hagens or Fafners try the part--like I feel like I should be yelling at Eva to run away from those villains before they eat her soul.


If you want Schoffler the 43 Bayreuth has *better sound* and fresher voice........Tully check this out, I might have to buy this


----------



## Itullian

That sounds much better than the Knappy DA. Thanks
Will consider it after more listening :tiphat:


----------



## Itullian

Just ordered this bargain thanks to DA :tiphat:
Finally will have the Kempe Meister.
Got it for 12dollars plus postage.  

And the Konwitschny Hollander


----------



## DarkAngel

> Just ordered this bargain thanks to DA :tiphat:
> Finally will have the Kempe Meister.
> Got it for 12dollars plus postage.
> 
> And the Konwitschny Hollander


Such a great deal, finally the mighty 56 Kempe Meister is yours.............


----------



## Itullian

^^^^Yup, that's them.


----------



## Itullian

For a pittance


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> For a pittance


Don't you love it when a plan comes together?


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> If you want Schoffler the 43 Bayreuth has *better sound* and fresher voice........Tully check this out, I might have to buy this


I agree. This is very good too DA. Great singing and excellent conductor. Very nicely paced throughout.


----------



## Barbebleu

This is my last Wagner purchase for the time being.









I am off on holiday for three weeks and my holiday listening will be Herr Brahms! In his entirety!!


----------



## gardibolt

I will be off for two weeks myself shortly, so I'm loading up the iPod to the brim with goodies. Just got the 1952 Karajan Tristan, which will be going on tonight.


----------



## Admiral

Okay, I've read through about 50 pages of this but admittedly not all of it - I'm looking to buy two Ring cycles from Bayreuth in the 1950s/1960s and appreciate all advice.

I know I want the 1957 Kna so that takes care of one cycle.

I currently own the following: 1955 Keilberth stereo / 1953 Krauss / RAI Furtwangler / and several newer and older ones and portions of newer ones (Solti/Janowski/Karajan/Melchoir scenes/etc), so I'm really focused on that 1950-60 Bayreuth era.

I'm an audio nut but I'm fine with mono sound but I've heard not-great things about the 1960 Kempe regarding the sound quality (and likewise heard raves about the 1957 Kna). The RAI Furtwangler sound quality is about my floor (and the la Scala sound is beneath it) if that provides any guidance.

Appreciate your thoughts. Leaning toward the 1952 Keilberth after reading Bob Levine's review.


----------



## howlingfantods

Admiral said:


> Okay, I've read through about 50 pages of this but admittedly not all of it - I'm looking to buy two Ring cycles from Bayreuth in the 1950s/1960s and appreciate all advice.
> 
> I know I want the 1957 Kna so that takes care of one cycle.
> 
> I currently own the following: 1955 Keilberth stereo / 1953 Krauss / RAI Furtwangler / and several newer and older ones and portions of newer ones (Solti/Janowski/Karajan/Melchoir scenes/etc), so I'm really focused on that 1950-60 Bayreuth era.
> 
> I'm an audio nut but I'm fine with mono sound but I've heard not-great things about the 1960 Kempe regarding the sound quality (and likewise heard raves about the 1957 Kna). The RAI Furtwangler sound quality is about my floor (and the la Scala sound is beneath it) if that provides any guidance.
> 
> Appreciate your thoughts. Leaning toward the 1952 Keilberth after reading Bob Levine's review.


I'd recommend trying the Scala Furtwangler in the Pristine Classical remaster. I think your floor is probably around where mine is (actually maybe a slight bit more forgiving than mine actually) and the Scala Furt in any other remaster was well below my floor, but in the Pristine version is well above it. I think it'd be a more interesting addition to your library than another Keilberth or another Kna--different and obviously great interpreter, plus a pretty different cast overall, including fantastic performances from Flagstad and Lorenz in still pretty good voices. And to my ears, Furt's Scala cycle is miles better than the RAI, in casting, in orchestral performance, and the overall pacing and structure--the RAI is oddly lax and diffuse for Furtwangler.


----------



## Faustian

howlingfantods said:


> I'd recommend trying the Scala Furtwangler in the Pristine Classical remaster. I think your floor is probably around where mine is (actually maybe a slight bit more forgiving than mine actually) and the Scala Furt in any other remaster was well below my floor, but in the Pristine version is well above it. I think it'd be a more interesting addition to your library than another Keilberth or another Kna--different and obviously great interpreter, plus a pretty different cast overall, including fantastic performances from Flagstad and Lorenz in still pretty good voices. And to my ears, Furt's Scala cycle is miles better than the RAI, in casting, in orchestral performance, and the overall pacing and structure--the RAI is oddly lax and diffuse for Furtwangler.


Furtwangler offers two strikingly different accounts: the La Scala Ring is a theatrical occasion, and is conducted at a level of intensity that at times comes close to madness, but would certainly have won the composer's passionate approval. The Rome Ring, performed an act at a time before an invited audience in a radio studio, is incandescent too, but more steadily so, and has greater breadth. I can't choose between them.


----------



## Itullian

I prefer the RAI. I like the atmosphere better. Darker, mysterious.


----------



## DarkAngel

Admiral said:


> Okay, I've read through about 50 pages of this but admittedly not all of it - I'm looking to buy two Ring cycles from Bayreuth in the 1950s/1960s and appreciate all advice.
> 
> I know I want the 1957 Kna so that takes care of one cycle.
> 
> I currently own the following: 1955 Keilberth stereo / 1953 Krauss / RAI Furtwangler / and several newer and older ones and portions of newer ones (Solti/Janowski/Karajan/Melchoir scenes/etc), so I'm really focused on that 1950-60 Bayreuth era.
> 
> I'm an audio nut but I'm fine with mono sound *but I've heard not-great things about the 1960 Kempe regarding the sound quality (and likewise heard raves about the 1957 Kna). *The RAI Furtwangler sound quality is about my floor (and the la Scala sound is beneath it) if that provides any guidance.
> 
> Appreciate your thoughts. Leaning toward the 1952 Keilberth after reading Bob Levine's review.


I have high end stereo and headphone gear, you will have no regrets about sound with 57 Knap or 60 Kempe, 57 Knap is slightly preferred (61 Kempe has reduced sound quality)

Even though you have 55 Keilberth Ring my 2nd recommendation is 53 Keilberth (new boxset amazing sound) or 52 Keilberth Myto label because these are perhaps even greater performances if you can believe that......

They are so cheap you should really get them all 
60 Kempe - Myto, 
58/57 Knap - Walhall, 
53 Keilberth - Pan Classics, 
52 Keilberth - Myto


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> I have high end stereo and headphone gear, you will have no regrets about sound with 57 Knap or 60 Kempe, 57 Knap is slightly preferred (61 Kempe has reduced sound quality)
> 
> Even though you have 55 Keilberth Ring my 2nd recommendation is 53 Keilberth (new boxset amazing sound) or 52 Keilberth Myto label because these are perhaps even greater performances if you can believe that......
> 
> They are so cheap you should really get them all
> 60 Kempe - Myto,
> 58/57 Knap - Walhall,
> 53 Keilberth - Pan Classics,
> 52 Keilberth - Myto


Before they disappear and/or sky rocket in price.


----------



## DarkAngel

howlingfantods said:


> I'd recommend trying the Scala Furtwangler in the Pristine Classical remaster. I think your floor is probably around where mine is (actually maybe a slight bit more forgiving than mine actually) and the Scala Furt in any other remaster was well below my floor, but in the Pristine version is well above it. I think it'd be a more interesting addition to your library than another Keilberth or another Kna--different and obviously great interpreter, plus a pretty different cast overall, including fantastic performances from Flagstad and Lorenz in still pretty good voices. And to my ears, Furt's Scala cycle is miles better than the RAI, in casting, in orchestral performance, and the overall pacing and structure--the RAI is oddly lax and diffuse for Furtwangler.


HFTods speaks words of wisdom.......

If you value best sound quality and can afford the price *Pristine XR remaster with ambient stereo *is the best possible sound for any Wagner performances they offer........the 50 Scala Ring with Furtwangler is almost unbelieveable how much the sound has been improved over any other version, amazing really


----------



## The Conte

DarkAngel said:


> I have high end stereo and headphone gear, you will have no regrets about sound with 57 Knap or 60 Kempe, 57 Knap is slightly preferred (61 Kempe has reduced sound quality)
> 
> Even though you have 55 Keilberth Ring my 2nd recommendation is 53 Keilberth (new boxset amazing sound) or 52 Keilberth Myto label because these are perhaps even greater performances if you can believe that......
> 
> They are so cheap you should really get them all
> 60 Kempe - Myto,
> 58/57 Knap - Walhall,
> *53 Keilberth - Pan Classics,*
> 52 Keilberth - Myto


This one gets my vote.

N.


----------



## Admiral

DarkAngel said:


> I have high end stereo and headphone gear, you will have no regrets about sound with 57 Knap or 60 Kempe, 57 Knap is slightly preferred (61 Kempe has reduced sound quality)
> 
> Even though you have 55 Keilberth Ring my 2nd recommendation is 53 Keilberth (new boxset amazing sound) or 52 Keilberth Myto label because these are perhaps even greater performances if you can believe that......
> 
> They are so cheap you should really get them all
> 60 Kempe - Myto,
> 58/57 Knap - Walhall,
> 53 Keilberth - Pan Classics,
> 52 Keilberth - Myto


I saw your photos of your stereo, I'm guessing Musical Fidelity components, nice.

I do have the Furtwangler Legacy box, which includes a full cycle and chunks from other recordings. I'm on a Bayreuth kick right now so I think I'll order most of these today.


----------



## Admiral

Full 52, 53, 57 on the way, as well as Walkures from 1960 and 1958.

Very happy that I saw the 1953 Keilberth reviews and recommendations earlier in this thread; $38 shipped from A'zon.


----------



## gardibolt

Apparently I'm late to the party, but enthusiastic recommendations here for Pristine's renderings of the Furty 1950 La Scala and the 1953 Kraus. Both sound great--the Furtwängler is miles ahead of its usual rubbish rendering. I don't have anything to compare the Kraus to but it's excellent (though the horns and trombones are poorly miked so you don't get the gut-punch on Ride of the Valkyries that you find in Solti or even 1955 Keilbarth).


----------



## Admiral

gardibolt said:


> Apparently I'm late to the party, but enthusiastic recommendations here for Pristine's renderings of the Furty 1950 La Scala and the 1953 Kraus. Both sound great--the Furtwängler is miles ahead of its usual rubbish rendering. I don't have anything to compare the Kraus to but it's excellent (though the horns and trombones are poorly miked so you don't get the gut-punch on Ride of the Valkyries that you find in Solti or even 1955 Keilbarth).


I have both of these in other transfers and enjoy the Krauss and find the sound "good" - the la Scala Ring is another matter

I should probably listen to more of the 200-plus Furtwangler recordings I already own before I start paying top dollar for duplicates but I do respect all the positive testimonials for them


----------



## DarkAngel

Admiral said:


> *Full 52, 53, 57 on the way, as well as Walkures from 1960 and 1958.*
> 
> Very happy that I saw the 1953 Keilberth reviews and recommendations earlier in this thread; $38 shipped from A'zon.


That is major Wagner super jackpot purchase, so many great Rings so little time.......

Have you listened to the sound quality of the Pristine XR La Scala Ring, insanely good compared to any other version......listen to that long free sound sample next to album photo

https://www.pristineclassical.com/paco091.html


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> That is major Wagner super jackpot purchase, so many great Rings so little time.......
> 
> Have you listened to the sound quality of the Pristine XR La Scala Ring, insanely good compared to any other version......listen to that long free sound sample next to album photo
> 
> https://www.pristineclassical.com/paco091.html


As much as it pains me DA, I have to disagree with you here. Pristine's sound quality for the La Scala Ring is certainly very good but I have it on a release in 2001 from a German company called FNM (Falcon Neue Meridien)(See link below) and it is very good too I have listened to the sample and compared it to my edition and while admittedly there is a difference I wouldn't say it was vastly superior. I used my Sennheiser headphones to really get that close up experience so there was little in the way of ambient sound.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wagner-Nibe...=1440578225&sr=8-1&keywords=der+ring+la+scala


----------



## Admiral

DarkAngel said:


> That is major Wagner super jackpot purchase, so many great Rings so little time.......
> 
> Have you listened to the sound quality of the Pristine XR La Scala Ring, insanely good compared to any other version......listen to that long free sound sample next to album photo
> 
> https://www.pristineclassical.com/paco091.html


I can listen through my computer and it sounds good, but I don't have any way of routing it through my big system, so I'm a little nervous about paying the big price (I would have to get these on CD as I don't do computer audio through my stereos).


----------



## Peer Gynt

Barbebleu said:


> I have it [La Scala Ring] on a release in 2001 from a German company called FNM (Falcon Neue Meridien)(See link below) and it is very good too..http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wagner-Nibe...=1440578225&sr=8-1&keywords=der+ring+la+scala


That's interesting Barbebleu.

I also have this FNM La Scala Ring and am happy with the sound, despite its clear shortcomings. Prompted by online discussions I started to replace this set at one point with the separate installments released by Archipel, in reportedly superior sound. I acquired both Rheingold and Walkure on Archipel, but to these ears, any improvement in sound quality there is marginal at best, in spite of what Henry Fogel writes in Fanfare (as per Rheingold link).


----------



## Peer Gynt

A few, random (mainly non-vocal) thoughts on an initial, partial listen to Keilberth 52 (on Myto), recently acquired:

Rheingold - Wonderfully taut direction, the usual Keilberth curiously clipped phrasing in the Walhalla theme (I wished for a little longeuer here), tightly paced drama, it flits by, feeling far less than its two and a bit hours, real orchestral heft when needed, very exciting... Orchestra far more secure than on Keilberth 55. Fine, mono radio broadcast quality sound, no more, and there's no real sense of the Festspielhaus ambience and acoustic (as one gets on Krauss, for example). I long for a little holding back a la Krauss, but then again, Krauss doesn't always get it right (e.g. the ritard before Brunnhilde's entry in Act 2 of Walkure). Uhde as Wotan sounds like Hotter's little brother, but is convincingly noble in his own right. Beautifully sung Rhinemaiden scene, perhaps my favourite of all versions I know. 

Walkure (Act 1): Prelude one of the best I have heard, fast, biting, exhilarating. Treptow's voice rather alarming on a first hearing, confirmed thereafter. By the middle of the Act, I have got more used to his peculiarly braying voice quality and am appreciating his vocal acting. The whole Act is swept away by stunning, acutely paced conducting by Keilberth, again, better than the equivalent Act of the 55 cycle. And again, far better orchestral playing than on 55. This Act is a stunner and I cannot wait to catch up with the rest of this Walkure.


----------



## Admiral

^^^

Hopefully I'll have this set before the weekend - anticipation is killing me


----------



## DarkAngel

Peer Gynt said:


> A few, random (mainly non-vocal) thoughts on an initial, partial listen to *Keilberth 52 (on Myto), r*ecently acquired:
> 
> Walkure (Act 1): Prelude one of the best I have heard, fast, biting, exhilarating. Treptow's voice rather alarming on a first hearing, confirmed thereafter. By the middle of the Act, I have got more used to his peculiarly braying voice quality and am appreciating his vocal acting. The whole Act is swept away by stunning, acutely paced conducting by Keilberth, again, better than the equivalent Act of the 55 cycle. And again, far better orchestral playing than on 55. This Act is a stunner and I cannot wait to catch up with the rest of this Walkure.


Wait till you hear the Walkure Act 3 dust up between Wotan (Hotter) and the disobedient Brunnhilde (Varnay) the reference performance? I could never be without this.....


----------



## DarkAngel

Peer Gynt said:


> That's interesting Barbebleu.
> 
> I also have this FNM La Scala Ring and am happy with the sound, despite its clear shortcomings. Prompted by online discussions I started to replace this set at one point with the separate installments released by Archipel, in reportedly superior sound. I acquired both Rheingold and Walkure on Archipel, but to these ears, any improvement in sound quality there is marginal at best, in spite of what Henry Fogel writes in Fanfare (as per Rheingold link).


I recently got two Archipel installments of 50 Scala Ring and they do sound good, but for me the Pristine XR is another level better, the ones Barbie has I have not heard.......


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> I recently got two Archipel installments of 50 Scala Ring and they do sound good, but for me the Pristine XR is another level better, the ones Barbie has I have not heard.......


At the end of the day DA, if we are all happy with whatever version we have then all's well.


----------



## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> As much as it pains me DA, I have to disagree with you here. Pristine's sound quality for the La Scala Ring is certainly very good but I have it on a release in 2001 from a German company called FNM (Falcon Neue Meridien)(See link below) and it is very good too I have listened to the sample and compared it to my edition and while admittedly there is a difference I wouldn't say it was vastly superior. I used my Sennheiser headphones to really get that close up experience so there was little in the way of ambient sound.
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wagner-Nibe...=1440578225&sr=8-1&keywords=der+ring+la+scala


Barbie did you notice the very first long detailed Amazon review for that link is actually of the Pristine XR set


----------



## gardibolt

Yeah, the Pristine 1950 La Scala is good enough that oddly enough I feel no compulsion to hunt down the FNM discs. It may have something to do with the fact I first experienced that cycle on the *shudder* Murray Hill LPs from Hell.


----------



## OperaChic

Ok Wagnerians, I come to you here for your advice. I currently have two studio recordings of the Ring in great sound (the Solti and Janowski cycles), and I am looking to supplement this with ONE complete cycle from the 1950s so that I can hear some of those distinguished Wagner singers like Mödl, Hotter, Varnay, Suthaus, Vinay, Windgassen, etc. around their prime.

It seems like for overall quality, both in terms of sound and artistry, the 1955 Keilberth would be ideal. However, it's currently very expensive. So the other two I've been looking at with some interest are the 1953 Krauss and the 1953 RAI with Furtwängler, which both have their advocates and most attractively for me on top of that can currently be found for under $50.

So, of those three choices, how would you advise me? Superb sound quality isn't a necessity here since like I say I have those other two sets, although its always nice to have of course. Is saving up for a while to get the '55 Keilberth just the best way to go? Or would one of those other cycles serve my purposes just fine? If so, which one would you suggest and why? Or if there's another great cycle available at a good price from around this period that you would recommend instead, feel free.

Thanks everyone!!


----------



## gardibolt

If you don't want to pay Testament or Pristine prices, then the 1953 Krauss is indeed excellent and available pretty reasonably. That would be my first choice without going over $100 for your target material. But if you can save up for the 1955 Keilberth without starving the children it's definitely worth it (I ordered mine last month from amazon.de and shipped to USA after deducting VAT it came to around $125, though who knows what the price is today....point is you can find it a chunk cheaper if you try hard). The sound is exquisite (other than the noisy infernal contraption in scene 3 of Rheingold) and the performances first-rate.

If you're going to get a Furtwängler, I'd prefer the 1950 La Scala over the RAI, especially if you can manage the Pristine set, which I think sounds terrific. The La Scala orchestra just has way better chops than the RAI group, and Furty can get them to do more with the music. Wagner more than any other operatic composer to my mind needs a first-rate orchestra no matter who's singing.


----------



## Peer Gynt

Hi OperaChic, and welcome. A new member myself, I would concur with gardibolt, though I would say that I am currently exploring Keilberth 52 in decent enough radio broadcast mono sound and find it, almost 1/2 way through, more impressive in almost every way other than sound to the Keilberth 55. Krauss is amazing, the flow is so natural one would believe it could be done no other way (the odd misfire notwithstanding) but with inferior sound, recessed brass being the most conspicuous victim, and voices very forward, but what voices. Others here rate the Keilberth 53 very highly indeed; I have recently acquired it but have bot yet auditioned.

I tend to blow hot and cold these days towards Furtwangler's Rings. When listening, sometimes I am transported by the elemental power of his conception, at others thinking it all too interventionist. And I say this as one who adores Furtwangler. All very strange.

If I had to choose one, it would still be Krauss. Ask me again next week and it might be Keilberth 52...


----------



## howlingfantods

gardibolt said:


> If you don't want to pay Testament or Pristine prices, then the 1953 Krauss is indeed excellent and available pretty reasonably. That would be my first choice without going over $100 for your target material. But if you can save up for the 1955 Keilberth without starving the children it's definitely worth it (I ordered mine last month from amazon.de and shipped to USA after deducting VAT it came to around $125, though who knows what the price is today....point is you can find it a chunk cheaper if you try hard). The sound is exquisite (other than the noisy infernal contraption in scene 3 of Rheingold) and the performances first-rate.
> 
> If you're going to get a Furtwängler, I'd prefer the 1950 La Scala over the RAI, especially if you can manage the Pristine set, which I think sounds terrific. The La Scala orchestra just has way better chops than the RAI group, and Furty can get them to do more with the music. Wagner more than any other operatic composer to my mind needs a first-rate orchestra no matter who's singing.


I also like the cast better at Scala--especially Flagstad as Brunnhilde, who is still in pretty good voice in 1950. Frantz is Wotan in both but sounds fresher and livelier in 1950, and although I like Suthaus just fine, it's pretty thrilling to hear Max Lorenz as Siegfried in Gotterdammerung. I've read some criticism about the state of his voice on this recording but to me, he still sounds very fine, and gives one of my favorite performances of the role.

Svanholm is fine as the younger Siegfried in the eponymous--maybe Suthaus is fresher in act 3 but Svanholm is more vivid in act 1, but both give good, characterful performances.

I do think the 1953 Krauss and 1950 Furt are a level above the other 50's Ring cycles. But the Keilberths are all quite good--I'd get the 1955 for the best sound, but the 1952 and 53 both have fine, clear mono sound, for a lot less money. I'd steer clear of cycles with Modl as Brunnhilde--I have problems with both her and Varnay, but of the two, I prefer Varnay. I don't like the Kna or Kempes as much as the others, but that's a high standard--I think all of these are excellent. The Stiedry Met cycle is also worth hearing but is in scrappier sound, at least the version I've heard.

eta- it's worth noting, though, that both of my favorite 50s cycles (the furt/scala and krauss) have by far the worst sound of the available contenders unless you get them in the Pristine remasters. The Pristine brings them up to being somewhat better than the other mono recordings (a little more vivid, still some tape flaws) but still not exactly demonstration level quality.


----------



## Peer Gynt

howlingfantods said:


> I don't like the Kna ... as much as the others, but that's a high standard.


I do agree, and I have really tried with Kna (albeit just 56). For me, some absolutely extraordinary moments - which I would not want to be without, unlike no other, and some beautiful broad pacings, but in totality a wee bit too much hit and miss, compared to Keilberth and Krauss (perhaps others disagree?) Is 57 or 58 investable in, in terms of 56?



howlingfantods said:


> it's worth noting, though, that both of my favorite 50s cycles (the furt/scala and krauss) have by far the worst sound of the available contenders unless you get them in the Pristine remasters.


Good point, howlingfantods - God's irony that purportedly the best cycles are those in which one can hear least sound. I have not dipped my toes in Pristine. I think the ethos is too _interventionist_ for me (there's that word again).


----------



## Peer Gynt

DarkAngel said:


> Wait till you hear the Walkure Act 3 dust up between Wotan (Hotter) and the disobedient Brunnhilde (Varnay) the reference performance? I could never be without this.....


DarkAngel, currently on Act 2 and it's absolutely compelling...


----------



## Admiral

Re: the 1955 Ring: 

To be clear, the sound isn't "perfect" in the sense of a 1990s Telarc recording. There are dropouts, periods of mono and out-of-phase patches. The horns can blast and distort at peaks. in short, it's not "perfect."

Having said that - as the owner of 5,000 LPs, 1,000 SACDs, 2,000+ CDs and 7 Itunes downloads; - the 1955 stereo Ring is one of two recordings I go to when I want to be transported from this world into a different time and place. It really doesn't sound like any other recording I own; rather, it sounds like I'm (no, not in the theater) in the sound-check booth listening to the stage feed - raw, powerful, and unfiltered in a way that is unique, and which - at least for me - requires the full stereo experience. 

I have nothing against mono recordings, and just ordered 3 mono Ring cycles myself - but this 1955 recording is simply sui generis.


----------



## gardibolt

> Good point, howlingfantods - God's irony that purportedly the best cycles are those in which one can hear least sound. I have not dipped my toes in Pristine. I think the ethos is too interventionist for me (there's that word again).


It's kind of the same tragic situation as Callas recordings: the best performances more often than not have the crappiest recordings.

The 1957 Kna is also very good and well-recorded; that would be a decent second choice after the Krauss, and the recordings on Walhall were quite cheap at norpete.com. I haven't heard the 1958 Kna. Both of them feature Varnay.

As to Pristine, yes it's interventionist, but I simply cannot argue with the results.


----------



## howlingfantods

gardibolt said:


> It's kind of the same tragic situation as Callas recordings: the best performances more often than not have the crappiest recordings.
> 
> The 1957 Kna is also very good and well-recorded; that would be a decent second choice after the Krauss, and the recordings on Walhall were quite cheap at norpete.com. I haven't heard the 1958 Kna. Both of them feature Varnay.
> 
> As to Pristine, yes it's interventionist, but I simply cannot argue with the results.


I don't understand the "interventionist" objections about Pristine, honestly. I don't think there's anything that indicates that their remasters in any way distorts the actual musical performances--this isn't like that Immortal Performances guy who splices and chops up recordings. Pristine may try to remove loud coughs but they don't try to fix mistakes in performances or make any changes to the speed or pacing in any other way alter the musical performance itself. They do radically alter the sound engineering "performance" of the original sound engineers, but I hardly consider those sacrosanct.

If anything, Pristine allows you to hear the original musical performances better--I can hear orchestral details in the Krauss and Furtwangler that I guess always existed but I just couldn't hear before.


----------



## Itullian

I wish I could afford them.............


----------



## howlingfantods

Itullian said:


> I wish I could afford them.............


Good point, they are interventionist in the sense that they intervene with my ability to spend money on other stuff


----------



## Itullian

Itullian said:


> Just ordered this bargain thanks to DA :tiphat:
> Finally will have the Kempe Meister.
> Got it for 12dollars plus postage.
> 
> And the Konwitschny Hollander


It shipped :trp:


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> Barbie did you notice the very first long detailed Amazon review for that link is actually of the Pristine XR set


No I didn't. I must look at the reviews. Typical nonsense from Amazon again. I have seen so many reviews in the wrong places. It's pathetic really.


----------



## Itullian

Barbebleu said:


> No I wasn't. I must look up the reviews. Typical nonsense from Amazon again. I have seen so many reviews in the wrong places. It's pathetic really.


I read that they allow that on purpose.


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> I read that they allow that on purpose.


You would wonder to what end? If it's to annoy their customers then they are surely succeeding. Clowns!


----------



## Barbebleu

Got another Tannhauser. I know, I said that I was purchasing no more Wagner but this was too tempting at a download price of £4 or so. Vienna 1962, Karajan, Brouwenstijn, Ludwig, Beirer. Pretty good sound.


----------



## Faustian

OperaChic said:


> Ok Wagnerians, I come to you here for your advice. I currently have two studio recordings of the Ring in great sound (the Solti and Janowski cycles), and I am looking to supplement this with ONE complete cycle from the 1950s so that I can hear some of those distinguished Wagner singers like Mödl, Hotter, Varnay, Suthaus, Vinay, Windgassen, etc. around their prime.
> 
> It seems like for overall quality, both in terms of sound and artistry, the 1955 Keilberth would be ideal. However, it's currently very expensive. So the other two I've been looking at with some interest are the 1953 Krauss and the 1953 RAI with Furtwängler, which both have their advocates and most attractively for me on top of that can currently be found for under $50.
> 
> So, of those three choices, how would you advise me? Superb sound quality isn't a necessity here since like I say I have those other two sets, although its always nice to have of course. Is saving up for a while to get the '55 Keilberth just the best way to go? Or would one of those other cycles serve my purposes just fine? If so, which one would you suggest and why? Or if there's another great cycle available at a good price from around this period that you would recommend instead, feel free.
> 
> Thanks everyone!!


If you're only going to get one, I tend to agree with gardibolt and Admiral: wait and go with the Keilberth '55 when you can afford it. Yes it's expensive, but it's sooo worth it.


----------



## Barbebleu

U


Peer Gynt said:


> That's interesting Barbebleu.
> 
> I also have this FNM La Scala Ring and am happy with the sound, despite its clear shortcomings. Prompted by online discussions I started to replace this set at one point with the separate installments released by Archipel, in reportedly superior sound. I acquired both Rheingold and Walkure on Archipel, but to these ears, any improvement in sound quality there is marginal at best, in spite of what Henry Fogel writes in Fanfare (as per Rheingold link).


Among the reviews on the Amazon website it appears that the same engineer did the FNM set and the Pristine set!? If so, that could be why it sounds not too bad.


----------



## Peer Gynt

howlingfantods said:


> I don't understand the "interventionist" objections about Pristine, honestly. I don't think there's anything that indicates that their remasters in any way distorts the actual musical performances--this isn't like that Immortal Performances guy who splices and chops up recordings. Pristine may try to remove loud coughs but they don't try to fix mistakes in performances or make any changes to the speed or pacing in any other way alter the musical performance itself. They do radically alter the sound engineering "performance" of the original sound engineers, but I hardly consider those sacrosanct.
> 
> If anything, Pristine allows you to hear the original musical performances better--I can hear orchestral details in the Krauss and Furtwangler that I guess always existed but I just couldn't hear before.


I have sampled Pristine's Krauss and La Scala Cycles and the results are most impressive indeed, but they make me feel slightly uneasy. In other transfers of, say, Krauss, I can make an imaginative aural leap beyond the compromised sound to what in my mind a faithful audio might sound like, but with Pristine I feel that this imaginative aural leap is being made for me (in Krauss' case, Pristine's using of the soundscape and balances of the Solti Ring, IIRC). To use a bad analogy, rather like watching a colourised version of a Laurel and Hardy film.


----------



## Peer Gynt

Barbebleu said:


> U
> 
> Among the reviews on the Amazon website it appears that the same engineer did the FNM set and the Pristine set!? If so, that could be why it sounds not too bad.


I would dig out my Rheingold La Scala performance on FNM for a reminder of the sound, but I am currently immersed in Act 3 of Walkure with Keilberth and the 52ers...


----------



## DarkAngel

Peer Gynt said:


> I have sampled Pristine's Krauss and La Scala Cycles and the results are most impressive indeed, *but they make me feel slightly uneasy*. In other transfers of, say, Krauss, I can make an imaginative aural leap beyond the compromised sound to what in my mind a faithful audio might sound like, but with Pristine I feel that this imaginative aural leap is being made for me (in Krauss' case, Pristine's using of the soundscape and balances of the Solti Ring, IIRC). To use a bad analogy, rather like watching a colourised version of a Laurel and Hardy film.





> If anything, Pristine allows you to hear the original musical performances better--I can hear orchestral details in the Krauss and Furtwangler that I guess always existed but I just couldn't hear before.


I have long ago left behind any questions about Pristine XRs methods since the results speak for themselves and I can easily hear them for myself. The best "tell" as HFTods also mentions is the layer after layer of orchestral details being unearthed that are completely absent or obscured in other versions........listen to the sound of individual plucked strings and bowing techniques, valve clicking of wind instruments, long decay of a note (not just initial sound) etc this is real improvement in fundamental sound and makes everything much more fun and lifelike to listen to......the illusion is closer to real with Pristine XR

I wish the price was lower but if you want the very best sound for historical issues Pristine XR ambient stereo is where I go.......


----------



## Admiral

Peer Gynt said:


> I would dig out my Rheingold La Scala performance on FNM for a reminder of the sound, but I am currently immersed in Act 3 of Walkure with Keilberth and the 52ers...


My '52 is supposed to be here tomorrow!


----------



## Admiral

Spent an interesting evening doing "sound-checks" on various copies of the Ring. I do now think that the Krauss '53 can be considered to have excellent sound for the vocals, somewhat less for the orchestra. The mics catch these big voices very well, and would be the envy of anyone recording today. 
As others have noted before, I think, the orchestra is a bit muted or recessed. Nothing wrong, but not as clearly caught as the voices.
I'm listening to the Archipel release (green box) - I think there are other versions but I don't know if they are different masters.

If there are any audiophiles out there, here's my main stereo:


----------



## DarkAngel

Computer headphone system above, main stereo below.........those CD racks are just tip of the iceburg :lol:


----------



## Admiral

^^^

I had Cary tube mono amps and Conrad Johnson preamp for about 15 years. I love my Luxman but I do often miss that tube magic.


----------



## Itullian

Excellent Lohey.


----------



## howlingfantods

Barbebleu said:


> Got another Tannhauser. I know, I said that I was purchasing no more Wagner but this was too tempting at a download price of £4 or so. Vienna 1962, Karajan, Brouwenstijn, Ludwig, Beirer. Pretty good sound.


Thanks for the heads up. I always meant to get this one but never saw it at a price I want to pay--six bucks works just fine.

Only through Act 2 so far, but first impressions are very good. Beirer is definitely the weak link but he's not close to as bad as I was expecting given how critics write about this one.


----------



## DarkAngel

Peer Gynt said:


> DarkAngel, currently on Act 2 and it's absolutely compelling...


Did PG survive Walkure Act 3 of 52 Keilberth, or did he get trapped within the ring of fire on the mountain top with the sleeping valkyre.......


----------



## Becca

We need to contact the Forestry Service and have them dispatch aerial firefighting aircraft.


----------



## Peer Gynt

DarkAngel said:


> Did PG survive Walkure Act 3 of 52 Keilberth, or did he get trapped within the ring of fire on the mountain top with the sleeping valkyre.......


Oh I would happily be trapped, DA, if I were to be surrounded by such beguiling playing, singing and conducting. One of the most beautiful Farewells/Magic Fires I've ever heard. 

It's going to take me a while to feel like taking on Siegfried from 52, such is the shattering impact the first two parts have made on me. In the meantime, Act 1 of the 1941 Met Walkure (Leinsdorf, Melchior, Varnay, Schorr, Traubel, Kipnis et al). Extraordinary stuff.

However, also espying with avaricious intent the Konwitschny cycle (Rheingold link here).


----------



## Admiral

Peer Gynt said:


> Oh I would happily be trapped, DA, if I were to be surrounded by such beguiling playing, singing and conducting. One of the most beautiful Farewells/Magic Fires I've ever heard.
> 
> It's going to take me a while to feel like taking on Siegfried from 52, such is the shattering impact the first two parts have made on me. In the meantime, Act 1 of the 1941 Met Walkure (Leinsdorf, Melchior, Varnay, Schorr, Traubel, Kipnis et al). Extraordinary stuff.
> 
> However, also espying with avaricious intent the Konwitschny cycle (Rheingold link here).


You're killing me!

My copy is speeding its way to me this moment, supposed to arrive at noon and I have the house blissfully to myself. Scotch is at the ready.

Primed the pump this morning and last night with 1955 Siegfried and last two scenes of Gotterdammerung.

Ready for Rheingold '52 !


----------



## Peer Gynt

Admiral said:


> You're killing me!
> 
> My copy is speeding its way to me this moment, supposed to arrive at noon and I have the house blissfully to myself. Scotch is at the ready.
> 
> Primed the pump this morning and last night with 1955 Siegfried and last two scenes of Gotterdammerung.
> 
> Ready for Rheingold '52 !


Excellent work Admiral. You're all set... Happy listening! (Siegfried 55 is astounding imho. As is Gott.)

:cheers: mine's a weissbier


----------



## DarkAngel

Some great buys used at Amazon, 57 Tristan Bayreuth (great sound) with Nilsson and Windgassen, 55 Tanhauser Bayreuth for only $10!!!!!!!!! in nice Orfeo release........

Today I have been listening to the sometimes overlooked 56 Knap Ring.............


----------



## DarkAngel

Admiral said:


> You're killing me!
> 
> My copy is speeding its way to me this moment, supposed to arrive at noon and I have the house blissfully to myself. Scotch is at the ready.
> 
> Primed the pump this morning and last night with 1955 Siegfried and last two scenes of Gotterdammerung.
> 
> Ready for Rheingold '52 !


Admiral has your cargo arrived, have you begun to inspect it.............


----------



## OperaChic

Thank you every one so much for your comments and your help! Still haven't quite made up my mind, though I'm definitely leaning away from Furtwangler's RAI recording and towards the Keilberth. Although the Krauss is just so appealing as well, and so cheap. Aargh!


----------



## Admiral

DarkAngel said:


> Admiral has your cargo arrived, have you begun to inspect it.............


All but the '53 arrived Friday - working on about 4 hours of sleep!

Started with the '52 Rheingold - wow - and Walkure then started sampling the '57 and '58. You were right about the great sound on the '57

Planning on staying up until 3 or 4 this morning


----------



## DarkAngel

Admiral said:


> All but the '53 arrived Friday - working on about 4 hours of sleep!
> 
> Started with the '52 Rheingold - wow - and Walkure then started sampling the '57 and '58. You were right about the great sound on the '57
> 
> Planning on staying up until 3 or 4 this morning


Keep going till the rheinmaidens get the ring and you hear that final melody of "hope for mankind" that concludes the mighty immolation of scence of Gotterdammerung..........

It's great that all those 1950's Rings are now available at reasonable prices in good sound, we must buy buy buy


----------



## arbiter elegantiarum

I uploaded a couple of tracks from the Golden Melodram edition of the 1953 Keilberth Ring:

http://www.mediafire.com/download/7ubmy4sbjg83tgv/GM1953.zip

Would anybody mind to compare it to the recent re-issue and share their opinion with us?


----------



## Steatopygous

Some members of this forum celebrated in spirit with me when my copy of the 1953 Keilberth Ring arrived recently. (Pan Classics, 2015)
Imagine my dismay as I reach the end of Siegfried to find that many of the CDs jump and skip on the last two tracks, whether in my big Cambridge transporter or in my desktop computer (suggesting it's not just my equipment). Does anyone else have this problem? Any advice?


----------



## DarkAngel

Steatopygous said:


> Some members of this forum celebrated in spirit with me when my copy of the 1953 Keilberth Ring arrived recently. (Pan Classics, 2015)
> Imagine my dismay as I reach the end of Siegfried to find that many of the *CDs jump and skip on the last two tracks*, whether in my big Cambridge transporter or in my desktop computer (suggesting it's not just my equipment). Does anyone else have this problem? Any advice?


I have no problems at all with 53 Keilberth boxset, purchased from Amazon USA seller importcds.com, you are wise to play in two different CD players to eliminate equipment problems, so I say yes you have a defective CD set.......most places allow CD/DVD returns if defective so I would contact seller.......

Personally I have had playback issues with Cambridge 840 CD player I had several years ago, had to be serviced a couple times with random skipping......


----------



## Itullian

^^^I just played my 53 Keilbeth Siegfried last act and luckily no skips.
Be sure you clean the disc real good. Sometimes just a fingerprint will
cause skipping.
Good luck.

PS What singing!! Modl is amazing! And Windy sounds like Melchior in places!!!


----------



## DarkAngel

Off topic.......

Anyone have the Bychkov Lohengrin, the samples I hear of Botha sound very good with golden soft tones yet necessary vocal depth and power for the commanding lines......not since Sawallisch have I heard the final so well handled orchestrally, the tricky gentle swelling to a final powerful surge, yessssssss........Ortrud is a bit too light in vocal color for me compared to Varnay for instance

Perhaps a touch of vocal wavering in sustained soft sections by Botha where Jess Thomas 1960-62 was solid as a rock, still a beautiful rendition me thinks........too bad the price is not friendly


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Off topic.......
> 
> Anyone have the Bychkov Lohengrin, the samples I hear of Botha sound very good with golden soft tones yet necessary vocal depth and power for the commanding lines......not since Sawallisch have I heard the final so well handled orchestrally, the tricky gentle swelling to a final powerful crash, yessssssss........Ortrud is a bit too light in vocal color for me compared to Varnay for instance
> 
> Perhaps a touch of soft vocal wavering in sustained sections by Botha where Jess Thomas 1960-62 was solid as a rock, still a beautiful rendition me thinks........


I remember hearing some clips somewhere and not being too impressed with it.
Botha does sound good though, but for some reason it didn't grab me.

Do you mean the short build to the final chord ?


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> I remember hearing some clips somewhere and not being too impressed with it.
> Botha does sound good though, but for some reason it didn't grab me.
> 
> *Do you mean the short build to the final chord *?


Many Lohengrin conclusions sound like a mushy muddled wash out, it is a complex tricky conclusion........the good ones for me have the mysterious swirling that builds to a final powerful sharp surge, should nail you to your seat and reverberate for several seconds as the mighty swan knight takes leave......the last 15-20 seconds


----------



## DarkAngel

*
My package from Pristine XR arrived today* which completes my 53 Krauss and 50 Furtwangler Rings, to make room I sold the Orfeo Krauss Ring used on Amazon, next week or two listening devoted to these two Rings, what amazing sound quality.....

The 53 Krauss Rheingold maybe top version available, I had forgotten how good it is, Hotter is unstoppable here what a performance

*
PG and Admiral*
Any updates in your exploration of the 1950s Ring sets......


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Many Lohengrin conclusions sound like a mushy muddled wash out, it is a complex tricky conclusion........the good ones for me have the mysterious swirling that builds to a final powerful sharp surge, should nail you to your seat and reverberate for several seconds as the mighty swan knight takes leave......the last 15-20 seconds


Ah, I gotcha DA. Some conductors just take it to fast. No drama or impact.
I'm like that about the end of Act 2. I like it long, good organ and powerful.


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> *
> My package from Pristine XR arrived today* which completes my 53 Krauss and 50 Furtwangler Rings, to make room I sold the Orfeo Krauss Ring used on Amazon, next week or two listening devoted to these two Rings, *what amazing sound quality.....*
> The 53 Krauss Rheingold maybe top version available, I had forgotten how good it is, Hotter is unstoppable here what a performance
> 
> *
> PG and Admiral*
> Any updates in your exploration of the 1950s Ring sets......


I'm soooo jealous.


----------



## Admiral

DA- '53 Keilberth arrived today. Excited and will do some listening tonight

My plans for a weekend of listening were broken up by helping a family member move - have Siegfried '52 cued up for tonight though


----------



## Peer Gynt

DA and Admiral,

My intensive auditioning of Siegfried (Keilberth 52) is still ongoing but have had to take a break. Siegfried is going swimmingly (I particularly enjoy the Mime/Wanderer confrontation and the Waldweben). Keilberth's direction continues to be swift, incisive and clear, with some moments of real heft when required. I am half an hour or so from the end of Siegfried - our hero has just made it through the ring of fire - the sense of quietude and stasis here in the score, as brought out by Keilberth and the 52ers, is really quite breathtaking - a palpable sense of having arrived in an entirely different 'world'. Aldenhoff as Siegfried, whilst not so pleasing to this ear as Windgassen, is very impressive.


----------



## Admiral

Peer Gynt said:


> DA and Admiral,
> 
> My intensive auditioning of Siegfried (Keilberth 52) is still ongoing but have had to take a break. Siegfried is going swimmingly (I particularly enjoy the Mime/Wanderer confrontation and the Waldweben). Keilberth's direction continues to be swift, incisive and clear, with some moments of real heft when required. I am half an hour or so from the end of Siegfried - our hero has just made it through the ring of fire - the sense of quietude and stasis here in the score, as brought out by Keilberth and the 52ers, is really quite breathtaking - a palpable sense of having arrived in an entirely different 'world'. Aldenhoff as Siegfried, whilst not so pleasing to this ear as Windgassen, is very impressive.


Continuing also with my first listen to the '52 cycle: Walkure has moments of real risk-taking. Hotter takes it to half-voice (and below) in the last act, barely hanging on but with the audience apparently in the palm of his hand. It is fair to say he is out of juice at this point in the evening, but it is compelling.

Keilberth goes into Wotan's Farewell too quickly, and then slows too much, and Hotter has to cut his notes short. His cry to Loge lacks impact to me, but it is a viable characterization.

Prior to that, Brunnhilde's scene with the Valkeries and Sieglinde is incredible. It is thrilling to hear them riding that high tessitura.

I agree with you on Siegfried - this is compelling stuff. For me, it is nice to hear someone other than Windgassen if only for a change of pace. I also favor a sung Mime as in this set.

Looking forward to finishing Siegfried tonight.


----------



## DarkAngel

Admiral said:


> Continuing also with my first listen to the '52 cycle: Walkure has moments of real risk-taking. Hotter takes it to half-voice (and below) in the last act, barely hanging on but with the audience apparently in the palm of his hand. It is fair to say he is out of juice at this point in the evening, but it is compelling.
> 
> Keilberth goes into Wotan's Farewell too quickly, and then slows too much, and Hotter has to cut his notes short. His cry to Loge lacks impact to me, but it is a viable characterization.
> 
> Prior to that, Brunnhilde's scene with the Valkeries and Sieglinde is incredible. It is thrilling to hear them riding that high tessitura.
> 
> I agree with you on Siegfried - this is compelling stuff. For me, it is nice to hear someone other than Windgassen if only for a change of pace. I also favor a sung Mime as in this set.
> 
> Looking forward to finishing Siegfried tonight.


Very exciting to hear that others love these 1950s Rings so much.........am I alone in thinking these are just in another class completely above the newer Rings like Barenboim, Levine, Janowski, Haitink etc?

Those sets are collecting dust on my shelves, Hotter is just amazing in 52,53......


----------



## Admiral

DarkAngel said:


> Very exciting to hear that others love these 1950s Rings so much.........am I alone in thinking these are just in another class completely above the newer Rings like Barenboim, Levine, Janowski, Haitink etc?
> 
> Those sets are collecting dust on my shelves, Hotter is just amazing in 52,53......


I agree - The Janowski was my first CD set but I never play it now - it was one of those "false economy" purchases. And I'm a big Janowski fan.

To me the amazing thing about Hotter is that he's still holding his line like a lieder singer, totally resisting the urge to punch this to that note. I have the EMI box set of his lied and the vocal integrity never waivers; it's simply scaled up or down.

I'm also enjoying great singers like Uhde and Neidlinger in these sets. They would be the toast of the opera world now.

The price is right on these too (just amortize any Testament purchases with the Walhall...)


----------



## Itullian

My Shock box arrived today..............
So it's the Kempe Meister tonight. :clap:


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> *My Shock box arrived today*..............
> So it's the Kempe Meister tonight. :clap:


Sachsy - F Frantz
Eva - Grummer
Walther - R Schock

Tonight for me it is 50 Furtwangler Walkure (Pristine XR)


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Sachsy - F Frantz
> Eva - Grummer
> Walther - R Schock
> 
> Tonight for me it is 50 Furtwangler Walkure (*Pristine XR)[/*QUOTE]
> 
> I'm so jealous....:tiphat:


----------



## Woodduck

Itullian said:


> My Shock box arrived today..............
> So it's the Kempe Meister tonight. :clap:


Congrats. I bought it in 1969. It's the genuine article. The quintet led by Grummer will spoil you.


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> Very exciting to hear that others love these 1950s Rings so much.........am I alone in thinking these are just in another class completely above the newer Rings like Barenboim, Levine, Janowski, Haitink etc?
> 
> Those sets are collecting dust on my shelves, Hotter is just amazing in 52,53......


Perhaps in sixty years time listeners then will look back at Barenboim et al as a golden age!!


----------



## Admiral

Finished the '52 Siegfried last night. This might be my favorite performance of this opera. Two minor points: the Mime who signs through act 1 resorts to the Heinz Zednik style for the remainder of the opera; yes, I know it's because we're supposed to be inside his thoughts, but it's a bit heavy handed. Also, one of my favorite tenor "arias" in all of Wagner - Nothung! - just seems to be very difficult to keep timing together on stage. IIRC the '53 Krauss version is even more astray.

But other than that it was a thrilling version, well-paced and well-sung.

One thing struck me: how crazy the opening notes must have seemed to an audience 140 years ago.


----------



## Admiral

DarkAngel said:


> Sachsy - F Frantz
> Eva - Grummer
> Walther - R Schock
> 
> Tonight for me it is 50 Furtwangler Walkure (Pristine XR)


Do you buy the CDs or downloads? I wondered how much of a hassle (if any) there is with shipping the CDs as I don't download.


----------



## DarkAngel

Admiral said:


> Do you buy the CDs or downloads? I wondered how much of a hassle (if any) there is with shipping the CDs as I don't download.


For Pristine XR I always buy the CDs with ambient stereo in slipcase, I print the artwork from website on nice heavy gloss paper and cut out using my own 2CD jewelcases.........it does save quite a bit of money over assembled CD sets

Total time to get delivery 2-3 weeks from order date


----------



## howlingfantods

Barbebleu said:


> Perhaps in sixty years time listeners then will look back at Barenboim et al as a golden age!!


Heh, that seems unlikely.

Tomlinson is really awesome though--he's still one of my favorite Wotans.


----------



## Bill H.

DarkAngel said:


> For Pristine XR I always buy the CDs with ambient stereo in slipcase, I print the artwork from website on nice heavy gloss paper and cut out using my own 2CD jewelcases.........it does save quite a bit of money over assembled CD sets
> 
> Total time to get delivery 2-3 weeks from order date


I'm one of those "instant gratification" types, so I always download from Pristine. I don't mind burning my own CDs, but just as often listen directly from the download files, put onto a flash drive or archived on a hard drive.

One of the advantages of this is that by setting up one's own account with Pristine, you get links that are good forever--you can download them again later if you have lost them for some reason, by simply logging into your account at their website.


----------



## DarkAngel

Bill H. said:


> I'm one of those "instant gratification" types, so I always download from Pristine. I don't mind burning my own CDs, but just as often listen directly from the download files, put onto a flash drive or archived on a hard drive.
> 
> One of the advantages of this is that by setting up one's own account with Pristine, you get links that are good forever--you can download them again later if you have lost them for some reason, by simply logging into your account at their website.


Bill do the downloads have separate "tracks" like a CD or just a continuous stream of entire opera?


----------



## howlingfantods

DarkAngel said:


> Bill do the downloads have separate "tracks" like a CD or just a continuous stream of entire opera?


I've gotten both--either a big long file that you can split using an included cue file or a set of separate files for individual tracks. If you have a cuesplitter (like Medieval), you just use that to split your files.

I actually prefer when I get a big file to split using the cue file, since that gives you the opportunity to do things like rename the track titles and artist and stuff like that in a text edit program instead of within your media app, so it's easier and quicker.


----------



## Itullian

Well guys, finished the Kempe Meister today, and I must say it is one of my favorites now.
Don't know if it will take the top spot yet, a few more listens may tell.


----------



## Admiral

Well this is interesting. In doing some spot checks on my new '53 Keilberth box set, the first few tracks i listened to were not in mono. See, e.g., tracks 8-10 of Rheingold.

It's not good stereo, more like panned left on certain things like crowd noise. Not sure what's going on here but it isn't normal mono - any ideas?

This is the Pan Classics blue box set. I do see the Gebhardt company listed inside, so I'm wondering if this is the Gebhardt remaster.


----------



## Bill H.

DarkAngel said:


> Bill do the downloads have separate "tracks" like a CD or just a continuous stream of entire opera?


The Pristine FLAC downloads are split, but if you buy the mp3 versions they use the longfile/cue file approach that howlingfantods mentions above. You can listen to the longfile that way if you wish, but the cue file helps when burning to CD as separate tracks.

It should be noted that lossless FLAC files can also be split using a cue file. When I've done LP transfers I usually do so as a FLAC file (one per LP side), then join the sides together into one long FLAC, then use splitter software that can trim the transitions and create a cue file.


----------



## DarkAngel

Admiral said:


> Well this is interesting. In doing some spot checks on my new '53 Keilberth box set, the first few tracks i listened to were not in mono. See, e.g., tracks 8-10 of Rheingold.
> 
> It's not good stereo, more like panned left on certain things like crowd noise. Not sure what's going on here but it isn't normal mono - any ideas?
> 
> This is the Pan Classics blue box set. I do see the Gebhardt company listed inside, so I'm wondering if this is the Gebhardt remaster.


It is remarkably good sound, the booklet/box says mono recording.......but track 10 for instance with entrance of giants has extremely potent bass for a mono recording really sounds great

I do not have a "balance" control on my main stereo or playback software to do a real test to see if each channel has different sound (stereo), do you have a way to check that out?

My informal test of physically quickly moving my head between right/left speakers sound like the same signal in each speaker so mono.......just very good mono! Perhaps they snuck in some type of ambience enhancement in remaster


----------



## howlingfantods

Itullian said:


> Well guys, finished the Kempe Meister today, and I must say it is one of my favorites now.
> Don't know if it will take the top spot yet, a few more listens may tell.


It is awfully good, one of the best. Kubelik takes the crown in my book but Kempe's is one of the closest also-rans. Frantz is a little serious for me as an ideal Sachs and Schock is a little lightweight for Walt for my tastes. But Kempe's warm but sometimes low-intensity approach to Wagner suits the piece perfectly and Grummer takes top honors along with Janowitz in this role.


----------



## Itullian

howlingfantods said:


> It is awfully good, one of the best. Kubelik takes the crown in my book but Kempe's is one of the closest also-rans. Frantz is a little serious for me as an ideal Sachs and Schock is a little lightweight for Walt for my tastes. But Kempe's warm but sometimes low-intensity approach to Wagner suits the piece perfectly and Grummer takes top honors along with Janowitz in this role.


Agree about Frantz and Shock. But I find Stewart that way too.
And I love Kempe's relaxed approach.

But I'll shock everyone here and say Solti 2 is still by a hair my favorite.
I just love the sound and the CSO and chorus.
Van Dam is a little weak, but a very intelligent singer and Heppner is great.
But the sound, AWESOME.


----------



## Admiral

DarkAngel said:


> It is remarkably good sound, the booklet/box says mono recording.......but track 10 for instance with entrance of giants has extremely potent bass for a mono recording really sounds great
> 
> I do not have a "balance" control on my main stereo or playback software to do a real test to see if each channel has different sound (stereo), do you have a way to check that out?
> 
> My informal test of physically quickly moving my head between right/left speakers sound like the same signal in each speaker so mono.......just very good mono! Perhaps they snuck in some type of ambience enhancement in remaster


Yes, I have a "mono switch" on my amplifier that combines the feeds of any input and sends a mono signal to the outputs. I also have a balance control.

There is clearly channel-based info that moves around the soundstage in those selections I noted. For example, there is a cough that happens only in the left channel, and in one part the cellos appear to the right of the singers (as they might in a stereo recording).

My guess - just a guess - is that the remastering engineer didn't use the same version of his/her edits for both channels.


----------



## Itullian

So what's happenin' out their Wagnerians?


----------



## Green pasture

Wagner: Lohengrin, live performance on December 21, 1935 at the Metropolitan Opera, New York, conducted by Artur Bodanzky, with four great singers leading the cast - Lauritz Melchior (Lohengrin), Lotte Lehmann (Elsa), Marjorie Lawrence (Ortrud), Friedrich Schorr (Friedrich). A truly stellar cast from a golden age of performances of Wagner's operas.

Highlights from this great performance, posted on YT by dtshu:


----------



## DarkAngel

> Wagner: Lohengrin, live performance on December 21, 1935 at the Metropolitan Opera, New York, conducted by Artur Bodanzky, with four great singers leading the cast - Lauritz Melchior (Lohengrin), Lotte Lehmann (Elsa), Marjorie Lawrence (Ortrud), Friedrich Schorr (Friedrich). A truly stellar cast from a golden age of performances of Wagner's operas.


PB how did you get that "immortal performance" release, they are extremely expensive compared to Myto etc.......Is it worth the price of admission?

Do you usually listen to this era singers for Wagner? 
I am curious to hear what was being done during those times but don't really listen to entire works, I do have the MET Wagner boxset and some of the wonderful 10CD boxsets to give historical perspective of some of these singers.....what draws you to them?


----------



## Green pasture

DarkAngel said:


> PB how did you get that "immortal performance" release, they are extremely expensive compared to Myto etc.......Is it worth the price of admission?
> 
> Do you usually listen to this era singers for Wagner?
> I am curious to hear what was being done during those times but don't really listen to entire works, I do have the MET Wagner boxset and some of the wonderful 10CD boxsets to give historical perspective of some of these singers.....what draws you to them?


To be honest, I don't listen a lot to Wagner. Till this day, much of the Ring cycle still remains quite hard for me to chew on. However, a number of individual legendary historical portrayals still kindle immense interest, such as Friedrich Schorr's Hans Sach, Frida Leider's Isolde, Lotte Lehmann's Elsa, Franz Voelker's Lohengrin and Elisabeth Grummer's Eva.

My main reason for getting the 1935 Met Lohengrin is Lotte Lehmann, who is one of my favourite sopranos.

I bought the Immortal Performances edition from Norbeck. Think the set may still be available for order.

As can be read from the booklet notes of the IP edition, Richard Caniell did two restorations for this performance. The first had been released on Myto. But Myto people did further noise filtering without Caniell's approval, causing the result to be muffled. On his own label IP, Caniell resolved to apply as minimal filtering as possible to retain the vibrancy, presence and overtones of the voices. Even though there is a marginally greater amount of surface noise on the Immortal Performances set, the voices of Melchior, Lehmann et. al. emerge with greater clarity and forwardness. IP also carries a very substantive note on the significance of the performance and individual portrayals by London Green (Professor Emeritus of drama, Bishop's University, Lennoxville, Quebec and for many years a regular contributor to _The Opera Quarterly_), as well as a number of very rare photos of the 1935 Met production as well as the principal singers in their respective roles.


----------



## Steatopygous

The Wagner at the Met set is just wonderful. And it cost me from memory, $15. But the Great Wagner Recordings (40 CDs) cost only $12 from Import CDs.


----------



## DarkAngel

Steatopygous said:


> The Wagner at the Met set is just wonderful. And it cost me from memory, *$15*. But the Great Wagner Recordings (40 CDs) cost only *$12* from Import CDs.


Such great deals, and the deluxe packaging of MET boxset is so nice.....especially like when they include actual photos of the performance on each opera individually, nice pick-up!


----------



## DarkAngel

plumblossom said:


> To be honest, I don't listen a lot to Wagner. Till this day, much of the Ring cycle still remains quite hard for me to chew on. However, a number of individual legendary historical portrayals still kindle immense interest, such as Friedrich Schorr's Hans Sach, Frida Leider's Isolde, Lotte Lehmann's Elsa, Franz Voelker's Lohengrin and Elisabeth Grummer's Eva.
> 
> *My main reason for getting the 1935 Met Lohengrin is Lotte Lehmann, who is one of my favourite sopranos. *


As you have surely noticed woodduck is the Wagner fanatic, scholar, philosopher in this forum......I think he has a special alarm set-up that goes off and alerts him if the name "Melchior" is mentioned anywhere 

He is especially versed in historic Wagner before 1951 Bayreuth re-opening so perhaps he will chime in with some observations about Lotte Lehmann............


----------



## Itullian

Well my Wagnerian friends, this is a little off topic but I had to come clean. :lol:

I have been listening to the Thielemann Bayreuth Ring cycle a lot lately on youtube
and have been totally blown away by the conducting and sound. I mean BLOWN AWAY.
Yes, there's some weak singing and such, but I feel a total involvement from the cast and orchestra. Where the singing is weak the acting isn't.
And Thielemann and the Bayreuth band........WOOOOOOOOW
I am hooked.
I am ordering the complete set. The individuals. Rheingold and Walkure are on the way first.

Well, we order for the singers in mono sound, this time I'm ordering for the playing with allowances for the singers.

OK, I'm ready. :lol:

Yes, this one


----------



## Marschallin Blair

DarkAngel said:


> *As you have surely noticed woodduck is the Wagner fanatic, scholar, philosopher in this forum.....*.I think he has a special alarm set-up that goes off and alerts him if the name "Melchior" is mentioned anywhere
> 
> He is especially versed in historic Wagner before 1951 Bayreuth re-opening so perhaps he with chime in with some observations about Lotte Lehmann............


I wouldn't call Wooduck a Wagner "fanatic" but I would call him a Wagnerian 'True Believer.'

His sporty tone and precision manners rule out his being a "fanatic."


----------



## DarkAngel

Marschallin Blair said:


> I wouldn't call Wooduck a Wagner "fanatic" but I would call him a Wagnerian 'True Believer.'
> 
> His sporty tone and precision manners rule out his being a "fanatic."


Yes of course we mean in the most positive sense of the word, since he is an endless source of information and insight on the subject......

As for Itullian's new "find" with Thielemann.......
I will have to look into this further, I am surprised to read that but perhaps he will tell us more when the actual CDs arrive


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Yes of course we mean in the most positive sense of the word, since he is an endless source of information and insight on the subject......
> 
> As for Itullian's new "find" with Thielemann.......
> I will have to look into this further, I am surprised to read that but perhaps he will tell us more when the actual CDs arrive


Shields up Scotty. :lol:
They're all on youtube.


----------



## Itullian

I have the Barenboim Bayreuth Ring, the Boulez and now the Thieleman.
So that's the modern bunch, I think. 

And I enjoy them all. 

BTW The Thielemann is live but you wouldn't know it.
Except I can feel the excitement.


----------



## howlingfantods

Itullian said:


> Shields up Scotty. :lol:
> They're all on youtube.


I don't suppose you have links you could post? I'm only finding CT's 2007 Bayreuth on YT, I've actually been trying to find a place to sample his 2008 for awhile now.


----------



## Itullian

oops, I ordered the 2008, not 2007.

2007 is on youtube.

I hope its just as good. 
cause I love the 2007.


----------



## Steatopygous

The Thielemann Ring I have seems to be from 2013. It is on DG with Vienna forces.
The singers are Albert Dohmen bass, Adrian Erod ten, Tomasz Konieczny bar, Wolfgang Schmidt ten, Lars Woldt bass, Ain Anger bass, Janina Baechle mezzo, Alexandra Reinprecht sop, Anna Larsson cont, Ileana Tonca sop, Ulrike Helzel sop, Zoryana Kushpler mezzo, Markus Eiche bass, Herbert Lippert ten.
Is this the same as the 2007 or 2008 to which you refer, Itullian, or is it another set?


----------



## Itullian

Steatopygous said:


> The Thielemann Ring I have seems to be from 2013. It is on DG with Vienna forces.
> The singers are Albert Dohmen bass, Adrian Erod ten, Tomasz Konieczny bar, Wolfgang Schmidt ten, Lars Woldt bass, Ain Anger bass, Janina Baechle mezzo, Alexandra Reinprecht sop, Anna Larsson cont, Ileana Tonca sop, Ulrike Helzel sop, Zoryana Kushpler mezzo, Markus Eiche bass, Herbert Lippert ten.
> Is this the same as the 2007 or 2008 to which you refer, Itullian, or is it another set?


It's another set.
The set I ordered is 2008 Bayreuth.


----------



## gardibolt

I just found my Boulez box the other day. That was the first Ring I ever saw on television, so I have a soft spot for it. The Barenboim is better overall though, I think, in most respects.


----------



## gardibolt

DarkAngel said:


> PB how did you get that "immortal performance" release, they are extremely expensive compared to Myto etc.......Is it worth the price of admission?
> 
> Do you usually listen to this era singers for Wagner?
> I am curious to hear what was being done during those times but don't really listen to entire works, I do have the MET Wagner boxset and some of the wonderful 10CD boxsets to give historical perspective of some of these singers.....what draws you to them?


You haven't heard Siegfried until you've heard Melchior do it. My god, that man could sing.


----------



## gardibolt

Admiral said:


> Well this is interesting. In doing some spot checks on my new '53 Keilberth box set, the first few tracks i listened to were not in mono. See, e.g., tracks 8-10 of Rheingold.
> 
> It's not good stereo, more like panned left on certain things like crowd noise. Not sure what's going on here but it isn't normal mono - any ideas?
> 
> This is the Pan Classics blue box set. I do see the Gebhardt company listed inside, so I'm wondering if this is the Gebhardt remaster.


According to a review of the box on Amazon (so take it FWIW), this is a license of the Andromeda remaster, which produced the illusion of depth by adding a little delay to the right channel. This gives the impression of small-scale stereo but with everything slightly shifted to the left. I was listening for that and frankly didn't hear it myself but usually everything sounds slightly to the left for me when I'm wearing headphones anyway so that may be why it didn't make that much of an impression.


----------



## arbiter elegantiarum

Itullian said:


> I have been listening to the Thielemann Bayreuth Ring cycle a lot lately on youtube
> and have been totally blown away by the conducting and sound. I mean BLOWN AWAY.
> Yes, there's some weak singing and such, but I feel a total involvement from the cast and orchestra. Where the singing is weak the acting isn't.
> And Thielemann and the Bayreuth band........WOOOOOOOOW
> I am hooked.


I have had a chance to listen to this Ring live in Bayreuth and I too was BLOWN AWAY by the conducting and orchestra, especially in Gotterdammerung. Fabulous. 



gardibolt said:


> According to a review of the box on Amazon (so take it FWIW), this is a license of the Andromeda remaster, which produced the illusion of depth by adding a little delay to the right channel. This gives the impression of small-scale stereo but with everything slightly shifted to the left. I was listening for that and frankly didn't hear it myself but usually everything sounds slightly to the left for me when I'm wearing headphones anyway so that may be why it didn't make that much of an impression.


I don't think many of us would approve such an artificial processing.

In light of the information above, may I repeat my earlier request?

I uploaded a couple of tracks from the Golden Melodram edition of the 1953 Keilberth Ring:

http://www.mediafire.com/download/7ubmy4sbjg83tgv/GM1953.zip

Would somebody bother to compare it to the recent reissue sound-wise or, better still, share the same fragments from the Pan Classics box set with us for comparison purposes?


----------



## Itullian

Thielemann sets not here yet.


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> According to a review of the box on Amazon (so take it FWIW), this is a license of the Andromeda remaster, which produced the illusion of depth by adding a little delay to the right channel. This gives the impression of small-scale stereo but with everything slightly shifted to the left. * I was listening for that and frankly didn't hear it myself *but usually everything sounds slightly to the left for me when I'm wearing headphones anyway so that may be why it didn't make that much of an impression.


I didn't notice any shift left in my stereo system, adding reverb or delay to simulate subtle spatial qualities like 97 Callas series can often cause a loss of detail depending on what is done......but what Admiral was talking about before, confirmed with "balance" control test was different signals in each channel which of course would never happen in mono, so something quasi stereo going on there......

All a tempest in a teapot really because the 53 Keilberth Ring boxset sounds really great, and we are not going to get any other option, enjoy we have a winner......


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Thielemann sets not here yet.


It just a dream tully, wake up you never said those crazy things about loving Thielemann (just kidding :lol

I have been in a dream of a different sort, guided by the supreme Wagner conducting skills of Furtwangler and the sonic advances of Pristine XR ambient stereo for 50 Scala Ring and 52 Tristan, I have spent the last week spellbound by what I hear now

I have new admiration for some of these singers now hearing them in such enhanced clarified detail, Flagstad sounds glorious here with plenty of dramatic flare when called for in these live recordings, a great Brunnhilde finally captured in fitting sound. Furtwangler here live is just riveting with the textural orchestral details building the sonic monuments and carefully maintaining the "long line" as the music evolves and transforms before us.......hard to pull away when such glorious thing are happening, anyone on the fence about buying Pristine XR Scala Ring you will never regret taking the final step, it is that much better buy buy buy


----------



## Itullian

^It probably is a dream.
But I hope not.


----------



## gardibolt

DarkAngel said:


> It just a dream tully, wake up you never said those crazy things about loving Thielemann (just kidding :lol
> 
> I have been in a dream of a different sort, guided by the supreme Wagner conducting skills of Furtwangler and the sonic advances of Pristine XR ambient stereo for 50 Scala Ring and 52 Tristan, I have spent the last week spellbound by what I hear now
> 
> I have new admiration for some of these singers now hearing them in such enhanced clarified detail, Flagstad sounds glorious here with plenty of dramatic flare when called for in these live recordings, a great Brunnhilde finally captured in fitting sound. Furtwangler here live is just riveting with the textural orchestral details building the sonic monuments and carefully maintaining the "long line" as the music evolves and transforms before us.......hard to pull away when such glorious thing are happening, anyone on the fence about buying Pristine XR Scala Ring you will never regret taking the final step, it is that much better buy buy buy


Heartily concur. Both of those are gems in their Pristine renditions.


----------



## howlingfantods

DarkAngel said:


> It just a dream tully, wake up you never said those crazy things about loving Thielemann (just kidding :lol
> 
> I have been in a dream of a different sort, guided by the supreme Wagner conducting skills of Furtwangler and the sonic advances of Pristine XR ambient stereo for 50 Scala Ring and 52 Tristan, I have spent the last week spellbound by what I hear now
> 
> I have new admiration for some of these singers now hearing them in such enhanced clarified detail, Flagstad sounds glorious here with plenty of dramatic flare when called for in these live recordings, a great Brunnhilde finally captured in fitting sound. Furtwangler here live is just riveting with the textural orchestral details building the sonic monuments and carefully maintaining the "long line" as the music evolves and transforms before us.......hard to pull away when such glorious thing are happening, anyone on the fence about buying Pristine XR Scala Ring you will never regret taking the final step, it is that much better buy buy buy


Yeah, I completely agree with this--I can't stop listening to the Scala Furt, especially the last two operas, and especially Gotterdammerung.

How's the Tristan? Is the sound significantly better? I've always been reasonably happy with the commercially available masterings, unlike with the horrible Scala Rings I used to own. I've only picked up the Pristine remasters of terribly recorded performances so far so I'm not familiar with how their remasters of pretty good mono recordings sound.


----------



## DarkAngel

howlingfantods said:


> Yeah, I completely agree with this--I can't stop listening to the Scala Furt, especially the last two operas, and especially Gotterdammerung.
> 
> How's the Tristan? Is the sound significantly better? I've always been reasonably happy with the commercially available masterings, unlike with the horrible Scala Rings I used to own. I've only picked up the Pristine remasters of terribly recorded performances so far so I'm not familiar with how their remasters of pretty good mono recordings sound.


The 50 Scala Ring is really dramatic almost unbeliveble improvement is sound as you know, the 52 EMI Tristan starts with much better sounding studio mono recording so for some people this maybe enough, but if you want to hear fully unleashed orchestral dynamics and subtle tonal vatiation in voice (which make all the difference) the Pristine XR is another level better......I instantly sold my EMI version 

Don't forget the "ambient stereo" offered by Pristine XR which adds slight body and richness to sound without obscuring fine detail, this adds another level of realism to 52 Tristan not available with EMI release.....


----------



## Green pasture

The latest release from Pristine Audio:









For more info, please refer to: https://www.pristineclassical.com/paco125.html

Overview:

WAGNER Die Walküre

Siegmund - Lauritz Melchior
Sieglinde - Marjorie Lawrence
Hunding - Emanuel List
Brünhilde - Kirsten Flagstad
Wotan - Julius Huehn

Metropolitan Orchestra Orchestra
Conductor Erich Leinsdorf

Live broadcast stage performance, February 1940
Producer and XR Remastering: Andrew Rose
Cover artwork based on a photograph of Kirsten Flagstad


----------



## DarkAngel

plumblossom said:


> The latest release from Pristine Audio:
> 
> View attachment 74943
> 
> 
> For more info, please refer to: https://www.pristineclassical.com/paco125.html


PB did you check out that sound sample at Pristine, I normally don't buy Wagner operas before 1950 but the sound quality on this is outstanding, in the buy basket it goes.......

BTW Wagner at the MET boxset also has the Feb 17 performance


----------



## gardibolt

Oh good catch, Dark Angel. I was assuming they were the same performance so it was a difficult decision. Now not so much.

EDIT: Hm, or is it? The text on the Pristine page says the 19th but the album cover says the 17th....

EDIT2: According to the day-by-day tracing of the activities of Lauritz Melchior (and I thought I was retentive!), Feburary 19th was a performance at the Met of Götterdämmerung, not Walküre, and it was not broadcast.

http://heroictenor.com/chronology3941.html

So this is probably identical with the February 17th performance in the Wagner at the Met box. I'm back to having to give it a careful comparative listen....this Walküre costs more than the entire Wagner at the Met box cost me.

EDIT 3: That page fascinates me. To think that you could go to the Met in 1940 and hear Lauritz Melchior sing four different Wagner operas in the space of a week!! They didn't know how good they had it. And opposite Flagstad, Lehmann, List, Traubel, etc etc etc. My god.


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> Oh good catch, Dark Angel. I was assuming they were the same performance so it was a difficult decision. Now not so much.
> 
> EDIT: Hm, or is it? The text on the Pristine page says the 19th but the *album cover says the 17th....*
> 
> EDIT2: According to the day-by-day tracing of the activities of Lauritz Melchior (and I thought I was retentive!), Feburary 19th was a performance at the Met of Götterdämmerung, not Walküre, and it was not broadcast.
> 
> http://heroictenor.com/chronology3941.html
> 
> So this is probably identical with the February 17th performance in the Wagner at the Met box. I'm back to having to give it a careful comparative listen....this Walküre costs more than the entire Wagner at the Met box cost me.
> 
> EDIT 3: That page fascinates me. To think that you could go to the Met in 1940 and hear Lauritz Melchior sing four different Wagner operas in the space of a week!! They didn't know how good they had it. And opposite Flagstad, Lehmann, List, Traubel, etc etc etc. My god.


Lets go with the Feb 17 date for both....... 

Still not off the hook, did you hear that sound sample at Pristine, really sounds great might be forced to own both

There is this 1941 MET Walkure broadcast with different cast also conducted by Leinsdorf to compliment the 1940 version, notice young Astrid Varnay......


----------



## gardibolt

Well, I A/B'ed the Met version and the Pristine sample, and the Met comparatively sounds like a 78 being played inside a cardboard box, while the Pristine sounds like a circa 1950s recording....not first rate but damned good and light years ahead of the Met's version.

Downloading.....


----------



## Woodduck

gardibolt said:


> To think that you could go to the Met in 1940 and hear Lauritz Melchior sing four different Wagner operas in the space of a week!! They didn't know how good they had it. And opposite Flagstad, Lehmann, List, Traubel, etc etc etc. My god.


They may have had a suspicion, though. For a time, in the '30s I believe, Flagstad and Melchior (in company with others like Lehmann, Schorr, Huehn, Thorborg, Lawrence, Branzell, Kipnis, et al.) made Wagner the Met's biggest box office draw.


----------



## Admiral

DarkAngel said:


> I didn't notice any shift left in my stereo system, adding reverb or delay to simulate subtle spatial qualities like 97 Callas series can often cause a loss of detail depending on what is done......but what Admiral was talking about before, confirmed with "balance" control test was different signals in each channel which of course would never happen in mono, so something quasi stereo going on there......
> 
> All a tempest in a teapot really because the 53 Keilberth Ring boxset sounds really great, and we are not going to get any other option, enjoy we have a winner......


Very true, as the saying goes, they aren't making them like these anymore, so I'll just click the "mono" switch and listen away.

Unfortunately, this thing called "work" has rudely interfered with my planned listening schedule, although I did sneak in a little Boris Christoff compilation late last night/early this morning.


----------



## Bill H.

gardibolt said:


> Well, I A/B'ed the Met version and the Pristine sample, and the Met comparatively sounds like a 78 being played inside a cardboard box, while the Pristine sounds like a circa 1950s recording....not first rate but damned good and light years ahead of the Met's version.
> 
> Downloading.....


Now I would love to hear what Pristine could do with that 1937 Siegfried and 1936 Götterdämmerung in the Met Box, both conducted by Bodanzky, and virtually unlistenable as released.


----------



## Barbebleu

Just finished listening to Lohengrin from Buenos Aires 1964. Lohengrin - Uhl, Elsa - De Los Angeles, Ortrud - Ludwig, Telramund - Alexander, Heinrich - Crass, conductor - Von Matacic. Excellent choral and orchestral work, even though the chorus sings in Spanish and the soloists in German! Uhl is excellent, particularly in In Fernem Land. He sounds really good and is almost conversational in his acting, getting it across less as a set piece but more integrated into what has gone before. He also is able to sing mezza-voce with no loss of power and any degeneration into a sort of croon, which is the danger. 
De Los Angeles is excellent too but the highlight of the whole thing is the superbly sung, deranged and demented portrayal of Ortrud by Christa Ludwig. This is one of the most chilling interpretations I have ever heard. At the end of her paean to the old gods something happens that I have never heard in a Wagner performance. The whole audience erupts in a fury of clapping and cheering that holds the whole thing up for about two and a half minutes. It's really quite moving and although I'm not keen on that sort of thing it is totally deserved. Breathtaking actually. All in all a great Lohengrin. Matacic gets wonders from the orchestra and chorus.


----------



## DarkAngel

After repeated surveys into my Tristan collection and long sessions with the 52 Furtwangler Tristan in Pristine XR sound, I realize currently don't have a Tristan with Astrid Varnay as Isolde, she has very few recorded performances available but did purchase these two from 53 and 55:

















My very favorite liebestod remains the one from this Varnay recital disc:


----------



## Itullian

^^That Jochum looks interesting DA.
I wonder if the Acts are complete per disc.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> ^^That Jochum looks interesting DA.
> I wonder if the Acts are complete per disc.


Probably not, but there are good sound samples at Presto UK......

*Makes a nice early 1950s trio of Isoldes with:*

52 Furtwangler - Flagstad
52 Karajan - Modl
53 Jochum - Varnay


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Probably not, but there are good sound samples at Presto UK......
> 
> *Makes a nice early 1950s trio of Isoldes with:*
> 
> 52 Furtwangler - Flagstad
> 52 Karajan - Modl
> 53 Jochum - Varnay


Presto samples sound good to me.


----------



## gardibolt

> De Los Angeles is excellent too but the highlight of the whole thing is the superbly sung, deranged and demented portrayal of Ortrud by Christa Ludwig. This is one of the most chilling interpretations I have ever heard.


Ludwig, it seems to me, is underappreciated generally, and I'm not sure why.


----------



## gardibolt

Now that I've had a chance to listen to the 1940 Leinsdorf Walküre from Pristine in total, it should be noted that there's a fair amount of groove crackle at the start of each acetate disc side; it's worst at the start of Act I, which is regrettable since that's one of my favorite bits of the opera, but the tradeoff is well worth it for the otherwise improved sound quality.


----------



## Woodduck

gardibolt said:


> Ludwig, it seems to me, is underappreciated generally, and I'm not sure why.


If it's true, as it may be if we judge by how much she's mentioned in relation to other singers, there's no justification for it that I can see. I've always considered her one of the most compelling and versatile singers, artists and musicians of recent times. From the 1950s through the 1980s she was indispensable in opera, oratorio, and song, and her recorded legacy is simply amazing, in both quality and quantity.


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> After repeated surveys into my Tristan collection and long sessions with the 52 Furtwangler Tristan in Pristine XR sound, I realize currently don't have a Tristan with Astrid Varnay as Isolde, she has very few recorded performances available but did purchase these two from 53 and 55:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My very favorite liebestod remains the one from this Varnay recital disc:


I've got the Jochum but not the Kempe. How is it?


----------



## howlingfantods

Woodduck said:


> If it's true, as it may be if we judge by how much she's mentioned in relation to other singers, there's no justification for it that I can see. I've always considered her one of the most compelling and versatile singers, artists and musicians of recent times. From the 1950s through the 1980s she was indispensable in opera, oratorio, and song, and her recorded legacy is simply amazing, in both quality and quantity.


In my book, the definitive Kundry, Venus, Ortrud, Leonore, and Brangane, one of the best Frickas, one of the best sets of Wesendonck lieder and one of the best performances of the alto parts for Das Lied von der Erde and Kindertotenlieder and St Matthew and St John Passions and the Alto Rhapsody. And one of my favorite performances of the Liebestod.

And that's just the repertoire I really care about, she of course has just as many great performances in Strauss and Mozart.

One thing that jumps out at me when I look at this list is just how amazingly diverse the roles are. She could be seductive, coldly villainous, rapturous, comforting, vulnerable, stirring, lunatic. Such a great artist.


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> ^^That Jochum looks interesting DA.
> I wonder if the Acts are complete per disc.


Itullian, why the compulsion to have the acts on one disc? Surely the music is more important than the format. How did you manage in the days of vinyl with breaks every twenty five minutes?


----------



## howlingfantods

Barbebleu said:


> Itullian, why the compulsion to have the acts on one disc? Surely the music is more important than the format. How did you manage in the days of vinyl with breaks every twenty five minutes?


his version of hell only has 8 tracks and 78s.


----------



## Barbebleu

howlingfantods said:


> In my book, the definitive Kundry, Venus, Ortrud, Leonore, and Brangane, one of the best Frickas, one of the best sets of Wesendonck lieder and one of the best performances of the alto parts for Das Lied von der Erde and Kindertotenlieder and St Matthew and St John Passions and the Alto Rhapsody. And one of my favorite performances of the Liebestod.
> 
> And that's just the repertoire I really care about, she of course has just as many great performances in Strauss and Mozart.
> 
> One thing that jumps out at me when I look at this list is just how amazingly diverse the roles are. She could be seductive, coldly villainous, rapturous, comforting, vulnerable, stirring, lunatic. Such a great artist.


Couldn't agree more. A fantastic musical talent.


----------



## DarkAngel

howlingfantods said:


> In my book, the definitive Kundry, Venus, Ortrud, Leonore, and Brangane, one of the best Frickas, one of the best sets of Wesendonck lieder and one of the best performances of the alto parts for Das Lied von der Erde and Kindertotenlieder and St Matthew and St John Passions and the Alto Rhapsody. And one of my favorite performances of the Liebestod.
> 
> And that's just the repertoire I really care about, she of course has just as many great performances in Strauss and Mozart.
> 
> One thing that jumps out at me when I look at this list is just how amazingly diverse the roles are. She could be seductive, coldly villainous, rapturous, comforting, vulnerable, stirring, lunatic. Such a great artist.


She was definitely versatile going from the sinister Lohengrin Ortrud -> Mozart Cosi Fan Tutti roles
This is nice cheap boxset to showcase that wide range......















Ortrud















Adalgisa


----------



## Marschallin Blair

DarkAngel said:


> She was definitely versatile going from the sinister Lohengrin Ortrud -> Mozart Cosi Fan Tutti roles
> This is nice cheap boxset to showcase that wide range......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ortrud
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Adalgisa


^^ and as a final addendum:










Ortud's darkness is even more dark facing Schwarzkopf's light.

(Sorry, I can't resist cheerleading for Liz as well.)


----------



## DarkAngel

After checking on youtube purchased 1/2 of this 49 Moralt Ring, insanely cheap on Amazon USA Myto label. A few different names that we don't hear on the later new Bayrueth Rings of the 1950s, see what you think. Helena Braun as Brunnhilde is new for me........

Gotterdammerung features Gertrude Grob Prandl as Brunnhilde, another new voice for me, so this will give you some new perspectives


----------



## Itullian

^^^The Act 3 Walkure sounds great. Sound is not bad.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> ^^^The Act 3 Walkure sounds great. Sound is not bad.


Frantz is one of the darker voiced Wotans with some real low end heft and power, but still the vocal agility to fully characterize the role

I have to laugh a bit when they "blind" his one eye by long bangs from under his helmet instead of the usual eyepatch in this production


----------



## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> I've got the Jochum but not the Kempe. How is it?


Barbie both of those Tristans are in transit, expect them to arrive soon......I have checked sound samples and all indications are for them to be worthy additions


----------



## DavidA

This puts is deleted


----------



## Steatopygous

Out of stock, David. Is this you being pixieish?


----------



## Itullian

Steatopygous said:


> Out of stock, David. Is this you being pixieish?


Comes out 9/25 UK.


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> After checking on youtube purchased 1/2 of this 49 Moralt Ring,* insanely cheap on Amazon USA Myto label.* A few different names that we don't hear on the later new Bayrueth Rings of the 1950s, see what you think. Helena Braun as Brunnhilde is new for me........
> 
> Gotterdammerung features Gertrude Grob Prandl as Brunnhilde, another new voice for me, so this will give you some new perspectives


Where?..............................


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Where?..............................


This is crazy but search under "books" for Moralt, not CDs at Amazon USA and you will see them listed, $6.30 at importcds.com, buy buy buy


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> This is crazy but search under "books" for Moralt, not CDs at Amazon USA and you will see them listed, $6.30 at importcds.com,* buy buy buy*


Bought, bought, bought :tiphat:


----------



## Itullian

Had to have Frantz's Wotan.


----------



## howlingfantods

DarkAngel said:


> After checking on youtube purchased 1/2 of this 49 Moralt Ring, insanely cheap on Amazon USA Myto label. A few different names that we don't hear on the later new Bayrueth Rings of the 1950s, see what you think. Helena Braun as Brunnhilde is new for me........
> 
> Gotterdammerung features Gertrude Grob Prandl as Brunnhilde, another new voice for me, so this will give you some new perspectives


It's a very solid cycle, a little plodding and leaden at times but with a terrific cast. The sound on my version (the Gebhardt) is pretty good, well balanced and a little voice forward. Some weird fades and odd volume shifts, but it is 1949 after all.

This one was performed in concert one act at a time for taping to keep the singers fresh--Furtwangler who was in attendance liked the practice enough to swipe it for his RAI recording. I always find Frantz a little ungainly but he's definitely effective in this and in both Furt cycles. Both Braun in Walkure and especially Grob-Prandl in the rest as Brunnhilde are excellent, and Treptow was impressive enough for Furt to rush over to engage him immediately for the Scala Ring.


----------



## DavidA

Steatopygous said:


> Out of stock, David. Is this you being pixieish?


Don't know what you mean by pixieish but at my age I'm certainly not that! Try finding the facts before you call people names dear friend!

My computer seems to be saving the barnes and noble link rather than the Amazon one I copied and pasted which is strange as I've never been to B&N

Try going on Amazon UK and putting in 'Krauss Ring'. it is coming out on 13 discs from Membran at about £13.


----------



## Steatopygous

DavidA said:


> Don't know what you mean by pixieish but at my age I'm certainly not that! Try finding the facts before you call people names dear friend!
> 
> My computer seems to be saving the barnes and noble link rather than the Amazon one I copied and pasted which is strange as I've never been to B&N
> 
> Try going on Amazon UK and putting in 'Krauss Ring'. it is coming out on 13 discs from Membran at about £13.
> 
> View attachment 75175


Pixieish is my realm is an affectionate term. It's like Puckish - kindly mischievous. I meant no offence.


----------



## Steatopygous

In view of offence taken and caused in a couple of threads, both by me and to me, I want to put on record my sincere gratitude for the opening of possibilities people on this forum have brought me. This far outweighs any irritation I have felt. There are so many thoughtful posters, and so much knowledge that I am very glad I found Talk Classical. Above all, as I say in Area 51, I am grateful that posters here incited me to buy the Keilberth '53 Ring and the 50-CD Wagner Visions set. I have spent much of the past 24 hours listening to the extracts in the latter set that follow each opera, and what a rich experience it has been. So, thank you.


----------



## DavidA

Steatopygous said:


> Pixieish is my realm is an affectionate term. It's like Puckish - kindly mischievous. I meant no offence.


No offence taken then! Apologies for any misconstruing That may have occurred! It was very early in the morning when I read it and may not have been at my best! 

Did you manage to find the recording concerned btw?


----------



## Steatopygous

Unfortunately in tonight's posts alone I have found two sets I HAVE to have, both posted by the wretched Itullian who has no concern for my bank balance.  One is the Schwarzkopf recitals set, that I have found only at a Japanese shop, text all in Japanese, but seems to say it will come out later this year. The other is the Stravinsky on Columbia set, also coming out later this year, $A240 at Presto when it does. As I have just received about 100 Wagner discs in the past month, he has dropped back a little. But this is heresy for this thread, so I will leave this digression now.


----------



## gardibolt

Itullian causes me the same grief too, so you are not alone. Bless him.


----------



## gardibolt

DarkAngel said:


> This is crazy but search under "books" for Moralt, not CDs at Amazon USA and you will see them listed, $6.30 at importcds.com, buy buy buy


Oddly enough, Siegfried is amongst the CDs, but the other three are under books. Yes, I bought. Damnation, another Ring.


----------



## Barbebleu

gardibolt said:


> Oddly enough, Siegfried is amongst the CDs, but the other three are under books. Yes, I bought. Damnation, another Ring.


What's the likelihood of you listening to it in the near future though? I have had that cycle for over a year and it is still nowhere the top of my metaphorical to be listened to pile! Thanks to that rapscallion, Itullian, I also purchased today the Schwarzkopf. Got it on amazon uk for £1.38 plus £1.26 postage. That's about $4 in total I think. So not too much damage to the bank balance. Yay!


----------



## gardibolt

Barbebleu said:


> What's the likelihood of you listening to it in the near future though?


Well, pretty good actually. I've been in a bit of a Ring of the Nibelungs binge lately and I've been listening to them nearly as fast as I receive them. I still have the sets in the Wagner Great Recordings box and the Karajan Opera box, and the 2nd cycle 1955 Walküre but otherwise I'm listening to them and comparing them, sometimes several times, and am shockingly current on the rest of the sets I've been acquiring like a madman. I really need to work on studying the St Matthew Passion so I can finish Gardiner's Bach bio, but it'll come. Maybe I'll work on that this weekend so I can dive into the Rings again with a clear conscience.


----------



## Barbebleu

gardibolt said:


> Well, pretty good actually. I've been in a bit of a Ring of the Nibelungs binge lately and I've been listening to them nearly as fast as I receive them. I still have the sets in the Wagner Great Recordings box and the Karajan Opera box, and the 2nd cycle 1955 Walküre but otherwise I'm listening to them and comparing them, sometimes several times, and am shockingly current on the rest of the sets I've been acquiring like a madman. I really need to work on studying the St Matthew Passion so I can finish Gardiner's Bach bio, but it'll come. Maybe I'll work on that this weekend so I can dive into the Rings again with a clear conscience.


Lucky you to be able to listen to your Ring cycles. I just bought a load of Brahms box sets, vocal works, choral works, lieder plus an 18cd box of Richters American recordings, plus another Boris Godunov, Walkure, Siegfried and Götterdämmerung from Stockholm 1975 with Kempe conducting. I want to hear them so Wagner has to take a back seat for the moment. So much music, so little time! Not that I'm really complaining.


----------



## Steatopygous

Barbebleu said:


> What's the likelihood of you listening to it in the near future though? I have had that cycle for over a year and it is still nowhere the top of my metaphorical to be listened to pile! Thanks to that rapscallion, Itullian, I also purchased today the Schwarzkopf. Got it on amazon uk for £1.38 plus £1.26 postage. That's about $4 in total I think. So not too much damage to the bank balance. Yay!


Which Schwarzkopf? Not the one Itullian started a thread about, Elisabeth..... ?
You sent me racing to Amazon UK, who deny all knowledge of that set. I might have crossed my wires here.


----------



## DarkAngel

Steatopygous said:


> Which Schwarzkopf? Not the one Itullian started a thread about, Elisabeth..... ?
> You sent me racing to Amazon UK, who deny all knowledge of that set. I might have crossed my wires here.


I think Barbie purchased that 1CD aria set used at Amazon UK mentioned previously by Marschallin with the one Ortrud track.....


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> Well, pretty good actually. I've been in a bit of a Ring of the Nibelungs binge lately and I've been listening to them nearly as fast as I receive them. I still have the sets in the Wagner Great Recordings box and the Karajan Opera box, and the 2nd cycle 1955 Walküre but otherwise I'm listening to them and comparing them, sometimes several times, and am shockingly current on the rest of the sets I've been acquiring like a madman. I really need to work on *studying the St Matthew Passion so I can finish Gardiner's Bach bio*, but it'll come. Maybe I'll work on that this weekend so I can dive into the Rings again with a clear conscience.





> Lucky you to be able to listen to your Ring cycles. I just bought a *load of Brahms box sets, vocal works, choral works, lieder *plus an 18cd box of Richters American recordings, plus another Boris Godunov, Walkure, Siegfried and Götterdämmerung from Stockholm 1975 with Kempe conducting. I want to hear them so Wagner has to take a back seat for the moment. So much music, so little time! Not that I'm really complaining.


Many distractions, I got that great Gardiner Bach Cantatas boxset a couple years ago, beautiful package with different work of art on every CD sleeve......not even close to finished yet










*Tonight it is Gotterdammerung from 55 Keilberth Ring..........
*
Did I mention I purchased the two Modl Testament sets from 2nd 55 Keilberth Ring, MDT UK had them for 30% cheaper than Presto UK, still insane prices......


----------



## Steatopygous

DarkAngel said:


> I think Barbie purchased that 1CD aria set used at Amazon UK mentioned previously by Marschallin with the one Ortrud track.....


Thanks. If only we could purchase the recitals set for under two pounds.


----------



## Barbebleu

Steatopygous said:


> Which Schwarzkopf? Not the one Itullian started a thread about, Elisabeth..... ?
> You sent me racing to Amazon UK, who deny all knowledge of that set. I might have crossed my wires here.


DA is right. It was the 1 cd one.


----------



## gardibolt

You know, I looked long and hard at that Gardiner cantata box and I finally decided that the Dutch renditions in the el cheapo Brilliant Bach Edition are good enough for me when I want to actually listen to a Bach cantata....which isn't all that often. More money for Rings!


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> You know, I looked long and hard at that Gardiner cantata box and I finally decided that the Dutch renditions in the el cheapo Brilliant Bach Edition are good enough for me when I want to actually listen to a Bach cantata....which isn't all that often. *More money for Rings*!


I went through three Bach Cantata sets never finishing anyone completely, I would sell the previous one used at Amazon to help finance the new purchase....too much time needed when there are other things to listen to

Harnoncourt -> Suzuki -> Gardiner (my absolute final purchase!)

Looks like my mailman has left me some boxes today......


----------



## gardibolt

Oh happy day when the mailman brings boxes of Rings!


----------



## Itullian

I finally received my 2 Thieleman Ring operas today.


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> I went through three Bach Cantata sets never finishing anyone completely, I would sell the previous one used at Amazon to help finance the new purchase....too much time needed when there are other things to listen to
> 
> Harnoncourt -> Suzuki -> Gardiner (my absolute final purchase!)
> 
> Looks like my mailman has left me some boxes today......


I'd love to have the Suzuki set.


----------



## gardibolt

Having worked my way through many of the Bach cantatas while reading the Wolff and Gardiner biographies, I've come to the conclusion that a lot of their effect depends on the chorales he used being familiar to the listener; since I'm not steeped in German Lutheran tradition like his listeners in Leipzig were, I am never going to get the proper effect from them. I'm OK with that. More time to listen to Rings.


----------



## Barbebleu

Just downloaded another Lohengrin. Munich 1964 with Jess Thomas, Ingrid Bjoner, Ludmilla Dvorakova, Gottlob Frick and conducted by Keilberth


----------



## Barbebleu

In case anyone's interested, on October 2nd Orfeo are releasing Meistersinger, Bayreuth 1960 with Knappertsbusch on the podium on Amazon UK. I have preordered it.


----------



## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> In case anyone's interested, on October 2nd Orfeo are releasing Meistersinger, Bayreuth 1960 with Knappertsbusch on the podium on Amazon UK.* I have preordered it*.


Same as this Myto?

I really like this Meister and Orfeo does have nice package with much better booklet etc


----------



## DarkAngel

DarkAngel said:


> After repeated surveys into my Tristan collection and long sessions with the 52 Furtwangler Tristan in Pristine XR sound, I realize currently don't have a Tristan with Astrid Varnay as Isolde, she has very few recorded performances available but did purchase these two from 53 and 55:


The 53 Jochum Tristan is a no go for me, the sound is just OK but big problem is audible distortion/breakup during some crucial vocal peaks....like conclusion liebestodd, nooooooooooo

I hope that 55 Kempe Tristan works because I do want a Varnay Isolde.........


----------



## DarkAngel

Started listening to Moralt Ring, the singers are very closely miked like right in front of you, but otherwise the sound is as good as you can expect for 1949 without a lot of noise, back to listening mode carry on lads........


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Started listening to Moralt Ring, the *singers are very closely miked *like right in front of you, but otherwise the sound is as good as you can expect for 1949 without a lot of noise, back to listening mode carry on lads........


I couldn't take it. Sent mine back.


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> The 53 Jochum Tristan is a no go for me, the sound is just OK but big problem is audible distortion/breakup during some crucial vocal peaks....like conclusion liebestodd, nooooooooooo
> 
> I hope that 55 Kempe Tristan works because I do want a Varnay Isolde.........


Thanks for the warning :tiphat:


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> Same as this Myto?
> 
> I really like this Meister and Orfeo does have nice package with much better booklet etc


Yep, that's the one but its £75 on Amazon UK??? Orfeo less than half that!


----------



## DarkAngel

DarkAngel said:


> Started listening to Moralt Ring, the singers are very closely miked like right in front of you, but otherwise the sound is as good as you can expect for 1949 without a lot of noise, back to listening mode carry on lads........





> I couldn't take it. Sent mine back.


The sound for Moralt Rheingold has very closely miked singers, but in Walkure more normal perspective is used, there are definitely some "rough patches" where sound quality really drops off, but overall about what you would expect for good (not great) live 49 opera recording. This is really for extreme Wagner collectors who already have all the 1950s Rings

I have been terribly spoiled by 50 Furtwangler Ring - Pristine XR, 51 Knappy Gotterdammerung - Testament......these sound so amazing hard to listen to Moralt for any extended period of time in comparison


----------



## Itullian

Couldn't resist. Importcds had it for 18.00 new.


----------



## DavidA

Itullian said:


> Couldn't resist. Importcds had it for 18.00 new.


Is this "historical"?


----------



## Itullian

DavidA said:


> Is this "historical"?


No, but it's my thread.


----------



## Itullian

Just finished this. Still numb. All I can say is.....................

AWESOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMME


----------



## DavidA

Itullian said:


> No, but it's my thread.


You are historical then? :lol:


----------



## DarkAngel

DarkAngel said:


> The sound for Moralt Rheingold has very closely miked singers, but in Walkure more normal perspective is used, there are definitely some "rough patches" where sound quality really drops off, but overall about what you would expect for good (not great) live 49 opera recording. This is really for extreme Wagner collectors who already have all the 1950s Rings
> 
> I have been terribly spoiled by 50 Furtwangler Ring - Pristine XR, 51 Knappy Gotterdammerung - Testament......these sound so amazing hard to listen to Moralt for any extended period of time in comparison












The sound variation from opera to opera in the 49 Moralt Ring is quite large in Myto set, the Rheingold is so closely miked it is a toss away for me, the Walkure is better but just ok sound overall for this age, the *Gotterdammerung is a big step up in sound *from Walkure and actually sounds very good now.......about the same as 52 Keilberth Myto set, so this is a most welcome development, too bad no Frantz (wotan) but we do have Grob-Prandl as Brunnhilde to check out

*There is a bonus included*, last 30+ minutes of a 1942 Bayreuth Gotterdammerung conducted by Karl Elmendorff, featuring Set Svanholm as Siegfried and Marta Fuchs as Brunnhilde, really great sound, Svanholm is impressive for the short time we hear him before he dies off, Music & Arts label has complete opera available......

If you want to get a taste of 49 Moralt Ring definitely get Gotterdammerung, by far the best sound of the set and a nice bonus


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> The sound variation from opera to opera in the 49 Moralt Ring is quite large in Myto set, the Rheingold is so closely miked it is a toss away for me, the Walkure is better but just ok sound overall for this age, the Gotterdammerung is a big step up in sound from Walkure and actually sounds very good now.......about the same as 52 Keilberth Myto set, so this is a most welcome development, too bad no Frantz (wotan) but we do have Grob-Prandl as Brunnhilde to check out
> 
> If you want to get a taste of 49 Moralt Ring definitely get Gotterdammerung, by far the best sound of the set


Oh well, I sent mine back already.
I'm immersed in Thielemann's world right now. :tiphat:


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Oh well, I sent mine back already.
> I'm immersed in Thielemann's world right now. :tiphat:


You gave up too soon, I will admit I was ready toss it all after hearing Moralt Rheingold, but I had to keep going finally finding some Wagner gold buried in there at the end.....

Something from Theielmann did sneak into my last Amazon buy basket, but the mailman just delivered a package from Pristine XR today, more fun............


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> You gave up too soon, I will admit I was ready toss it all after hearing Moralt Rheingold, but I had to keep going finally finding some Wagner gold buried in there at the end.....
> 
> *Something from Theielmann *did sneak into my last Amazon buy basket, but the mailman just delivered a package from Pristine XR today, more fun............


Bet it's Parsifal 

More Pristine? What pray tell?


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Bet it's Parsifal
> 
> More Pristine? What pray tell?


*
Parsifal? (with Waltraud Meier as Kundry, you caught me)*
*

The Pristine XR package contains:*

 53 Furtwangler Walkure + Gotterdammerung

 54 Furtwangler WP studio Walkure (this could be amazing)

50 Furtwangler Siegfried (to complete the 50 Scala Ring)

58 Callas Medea ROH (latest Callas release)

I suspect once the 53 Furtwangler operas get the Pristine XR ambient stereo treatment they will get a new lease on life


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> The sound variation from opera to opera in the 49 Moralt Ring is quite large in Myto set, the Rheingold is so closely miked it is a toss away for me, the Walkure is better but just ok sound overall for this age, the *Gotterdammerung is a big step up in sound *from Walkure and actually sounds very good now.......about the same as 52 Keilberth Myto set, so this is a most welcome development, too bad no Frantz (wotan) but we do have Grob-Prandl as Brunnhilde to check out
> 
> *There is a bonus included*, last 30+ minutes of a 1942 Bayreuth Gotterdammerung conducted by Karl Elmendorff, featuring Set Svanholm as Siegfried and Marta Fuchs as Brunnhilde, really great sound, Svanholm is impressive for the short time we hear him before he dies off, Music & Arts label has complete opera available......
> 
> If you want to get a taste of 49 Moralt Ring definitely get Gotterdammerung, by far the best sound of the set and a nice bonus


DA. Ive just finished listening to the '42 Götterdämmerung. I really enjoyed it. Svanholm is great and the rest of it is pretty good. Not essential but I'm glad I heard it if only for Svanholm.


----------



## Itullian

I wish they'd put the old Stiedry Ring back in print. The Rheingold from the Met box is outstanding.


----------



## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> DA. Ive just finished listening to the '42 Götterdämmerung. I really enjoyed it. Svanholm is great and the rest of it is pretty good. Not essential but I'm glad I heard it if only for Svanholm.


*Barbie* I like it also for Svanholm, I think the high notes are a stretch for 42 Brunnhilde Marta Fuchs compared to Flagstad, Varnay, Nilsson etc

*Tully *you should just get the 49 Moralt Gotterdammerung skip the rest, that is definitely worth having and sound is good


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> *Barbie* I like it also for Svanholm, I think the high notes are a stretch for 42 Brunnhilde Marta Fuchs compared to Flagstad, Varnay, Nilsson etc
> 
> *Tully *you should just get the 49 Moralt Gotterdammerung skip the rest, that is definitely worth having and sound is good


Thanks DA, but I wasn't crazy about what I heard and it isn't Bayreuth so I'll just do without that one chapter.
Have to save up for the Siegfried and Gotterdammerung of Thielemann's Ring now.
I really am enjoying the sound, playing and dedication of it.
I'm so glad its on cd and not dvd.
Besides, I do have that '51 Gotter you know.


----------



## Itullian

And that Parsifal with Meier is on its way too.  

Hope you got the good price on it too.


----------



## howlingfantods

DarkAngel said:


> The sound variation from opera to opera in the 49 Moralt Ring is quite large in Myto set, the Rheingold is so closely miked it is a toss away for me, the Walkure is better but just ok sound overall for this age, the *Gotterdammerung is a big step up in sound *from Walkure and actually sounds very good now.......about the same as 52 Keilberth Myto set, so this is a most welcome development, too bad no Frantz (wotan) but we do have Grob-Prandl as Brunnhilde to check out
> 
> *There is a bonus included*, last 30+ minutes of a 1942 Bayreuth Gotterdammerung conducted by Karl Elmendorff, featuring Set Svanholm as Siegfried and Marta Fuchs as Brunnhilde, really great sound, Svanholm is impressive for the short time we hear him before he dies off, Music & Arts label has complete opera available......
> 
> If you want to get a taste of 49 Moralt Ring definitely get Gotterdammerung, by far the best sound of the set and a nice bonus


You might try the Gebhardt. I've not heard the Myto version but while the sound on the Gebhardt is not great, it's certainly nothing I found unlistenable in any of the operas, and the Rheingold is not any worse in sound quality than the Gotterdammerung in my copy.

Although I do think the main attractions for the Moralt Ring are the Brunnhildes of Grob Prandl in the last two operas and Treptow as Siegmund and Siegfried, so I don't totally disagree with the recommendation to get the Gotterdammerung, that and Siegfried are probably the best operas in the cycle.

Not that it's an essential cycle. I think it used to be a more important document of earlier performance practice when we didn't have the embarrassment of riches in terms of postwar recordings we do now. It is very good though--I rank it around how I think of Knappertsbusch and Kempe's cycles, not essential but worth hearing.


----------



## howlingfantods

DarkAngel said:


> *
> Parsifal? (with Waltraud Meier as Kundry, you caught me)*


The Levine or Goodall or Thielemann? I found Levine a bit draggy myself and the Thielemann is better paced, if not as well sung. I'm a little weird with Parsifal though I think--to me, the most important singer is the Gurnemanz, and I'm not crazy about Selig's performance. Domingo's good though. Sotin is outstanding on the Levine, and Meier is definitely fresher and steadier there too.


----------



## DarkAngel

howlingfantods said:


> The Levine or Goodall or *Thielemann*? I found Levine a bit draggy myself and the Thielemann is better paced, if not as well sung. I'm a little weird with Parsifal though I think--to me, the most important singer is the Gurnemanz, and I'm not crazy about Selig's performance. Domingo's good though. Sotin is outstanding on the Levine, and Meier is definitely fresher and steadier there too.


I am just trying the Thielemann Parsifal since it was cheap used and Itullian wants us to give it a try......
Outside of Meier and Domingo I don't know any of the other singers, my favorite is 62 Knap Bayreuth


----------



## DarkAngel

*Pristine XR ambient stereo version*

The 1954 studio recording with WP orchestra, one of the noticeable benefits of Pristine XR has on mono recordings is that is cleans up and fully extends lower mids and bass response, all kinds of details emerge from the previous low rumble.......this can really be heard on some male voices and orchestral sections.

Ferdinand Frantz is wotan and I cannot believe the thunderous power his voice has now, he can roar like a lion if you get him upset like act 3 with Brunnhilde, and when he summons Loge to raise the wall of fire the entire mountain trembles in response to such commanding force, very impressive sonic transformation

The slight problem as we all know is Furwangler's studio Walkure never really takes flight like his 1950s live versions, just a bit earth bound and vocally controlled......still great but the live ones are the way to go especially with improved Pristine XR versions


----------



## Braddan

DA: _The slight problem as we all know is Furwangler's studio Walkure never really takes flight like his 1950s live versions, just a bit earth bound and vocally controlled......still great but the live ones are the way to go especially with improved Pristine XR versions._

Thanks for this. I noticed Pristine had a few Ring Cycles and was wondering where to go with these. Any recommendations from someone who is a few steps (or downloads) ahead of me is most welcome. Do you have the Flagstad Tristan?


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> I am just trying the Thielemann Parsifal since it was cheap used and* Itullian wants us to give it a try......*
> Outside of Meier and Domingo I don't know any of the other singers, my favorite is 62 Knap Bayreuth


Just to be clear, I just ordered the Thielemann Parsifal.
I didn't say give it a try.
I don't have it yet. :tiphat:

I am praising his Ring however.


----------



## DarkAngel

Braddan said:


> Thanks for this. I noticed Pristine had a few Ring Cycles and was wondering where to go with these. Any recommendations from someone who is a few steps (or downloads) ahead of me is most welcome. Do you have the Flagstad Tristan?


I think I have almost all the main Pristine XR Wagner recordings now, I always get the ambient stereo option

Also I always like to see people get the stereo 55 Keilberth Ring on Tetstament label first, this is your foundation for a 1950s Ring collection

For Pristine XR Rings the 53 Krauss and 50 Furtwangler in that order, these are great great Rings and you won't believe how good they sound now.

Other Wagner Pristine performances I love are 52 Furtwangler Tristan (Flagstad), 56 Kempe Meistersinger, 53 Krauss Parsifal
*
Outside of Pristine XR in this thread I really like these Bayreuth Rings:
*
- 52 Keilberth Ring (myto label)
- 53 Keilberth Ring (pan classics boxset new)
- 57 Knappertsbusch Ring (walhall eternity)
- 58 Knap Ring (walhall eternity)
- 60 Kempe Ring (myto)


----------



## howlingfantods

DarkAngel said:


> I am just trying the Thielemann Parsifal since it was cheap used and Itullian wants us to give it a try......
> Outside of Meier and Domingo I don't know any of the other singers, my favorite is 62 Knap Bayreuth


Cool, that Parsifal is a really good one, Thielemann is definitely the real deal. I suspect that 62 Kna might be CT's favorite recording too, it's actually a little funny but the timing for his performance is within a few seconds of that 62 Kna. Internal pacing is similar too, with each act within a minute or two of that Kna. Similar balance chosen with trying (and largely succeeding) in keeping the dramatic action moving without losing that rapt aura that we Parsifal heads can't live without.

His recording cast is fine, just not exactly competitive with the casts of the Kubelik or the Kna 62. But I think I care more about the Gurnemanz casting than most, and Hotter and especially Moll are hard to match in the role. If you mostly care about the Parsifal/Kundry casting and less about Gurnemanz/Amfortas, the Thielemann cast is just fine.


----------



## Itullian

howlingfantods said:


> Cool, that Parsifal is a really good one, *Thielemann is definitely the real deal.* I suspect that 62 Kna might be CT's favorite recording too, it's actually a little funny but the timing for his performance is within a few seconds of that 62 Kna. Internal pacing is similar too, with each act within a minute or two of that Kna. Similar balance chosen with trying (and largely succeeding) in keeping the dramatic action moving without losing that rapt aura that we Parsifal heads can't live without.
> 
> His recording cast is fine, just not exactly competitive with the casts of the Kubelik or the Kna 62. But I think I care more about the Gurnemanz casting than most, and Hotter and especially Moll are hard to match in the role. If you mostly care about the Parsifal/Kundry casting and less about Gurnemanz/Amfortas, the Thielemann cast is just fine.


Yes he is. In Wagner anyway.


----------



## howlingfantods

DarkAngel said:


> I think I have almost all the main Pristine XR Wagner recordings now, I always get the ambient stereo option
> 
> Also I always like to see people get the stereo 55 Keilberth Ring on Tetstament label first, this is your foundation for a 1950s Ring collection
> 
> For Pristine XR Rings the 53 Krauss and 50 Furtwangler in that order, these are great great Rings and you won't believe how good they sound now.
> 
> Other Wagner Pristine performances I love are 52 Furtwangler Tristan (Flagstad), 56 Kempe Meistersinger, 53 Krauss Parsifal
> *
> Outside of Pristine XR in this thread I really like these Bayreuth Rings:
> *
> - 52 Keilberth Ring (myto label)
> - 53 Keilberth Ring (pan classics boxset new)
> - 57 Knappertsbusch Ring (walhall eternity)
> - 58 Knap Ring (walhall eternity)
> - 60 Kempe Ring (myto)


Good advice overall but I'd take the Furtwangler Scala in the Pristine remaster over any other recording of the Ring Cycle by a fair distance, even including the Krauss as much as I love that recording as well. Furt is unparalleled and his cast is comparable to or stronger overall than any other.


----------



## gardibolt

Still waiting for my 1949 Ring to show up...just as well since it allowed me to finish my work on the St. Matthew Passions--listened to five of them over the weekend in conjunction with the Gardiner book and the score. Really a great experience to delve into a massive piece in depth like that.

If they don't show up in the next day or so I'll start in on the Great Recordings box I guess, despite plenty of forewarning that the recordings are not great at all and only the Ring is even good.


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## Braddan

DarkAngel said:


> Also I always like to see people get the stereo 55 Keilberth Ring on Tetstament label first, this is your foundation for a 1950s Ring collection
> 
> For Pristine XR Rings the 53 Krauss and 50 Furtwangler in that order, these are great great Rings and you won't believe how good they sound now.
> 
> Other Wagner Pristine performances I love are 52 Furtwangler Tristan (Flagstad), 56 Kempe Meistersinger, 53 Krauss Parsifal
> *
> Outside of Pristine XR in this thread I really like these Bayreuth Rings:
> *
> - 52 Keilberth Ring (myto label)
> - 53 Keilberth Ring (pan classics boxset new)
> - 57 Knappertsbusch Ring (walhall eternity)
> - 58 Knap Ring (walhall eternity)
> - 60 Kempe Ring (myto)


Thank you. I'm much obliged. I'll take my time with this.


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## gardibolt

Opera Depot is offering a free download of a 1973 Bayreuth Ring for signing up for their email spam list, plus they're having a general 60% off sale on German opera.


----------



## DarkAngel

Braddan said:


> Thank you. I'm much obliged. I'll take my time with this.


Please keep us updated with your impressions as the collection grows...........



gardibolt said:


> Opera Depot is offering a free download of a 1973 Bayreuth Ring for signing up for their email spam list, plus they're having a general *60% off sale on German opera*.


Barbie has probably already placed a massive order, more more more...........


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## DarkAngel

Postman delivered more today.............


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Postman delivered more today.............


Are those the two stereo ones?


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## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Are those the two stereo ones?


Yes both stereo from the "2nd" 55 Keilberth Ring, Modl replaces Varnay as Brunnhilde


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Yes both stereo from the "2nd" 55 Keilberth Ring, Modl replaces Varnay as Brunnhilde


You dog you.
Always holding out on us! :lol:


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> You dog you.
> Always holding out on us! :lol:


Can't tell all my secrets.......went to MDT website who I rarely use but they were 25% cheaper than Presto UK, eventually Presto will have a sale on Testament label


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Can't tell all my secrets.......went to MDT website who I rarely use but they were 25% cheaper than Presto UK, eventually Presto will have a sale on Testament label


Will await your review.


----------



## Barbebleu

gardibolt said:


> Opera Depot is offering a free download of a 1973 Bayreuth Ring for signing up for their email spam list, plus they're having a general 60% off sale on German opera.


It's a pain actually. The free Ring is one I have already bought from them! C'est la vie!


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> Please keep us updated with your impressions as the collection grows...........
> 
> Barbie has probably already placed a massive order, more more more...........


How well you know me DA. :lol:
I'm listening at the moment, to the Solti Siegfried from Bayreuth 1983. Just finished Act 1 and there is a tremendous storm of booing at the end of the act, which if memory serves was directed at the producer, Sir Peter Hall. It's not bad but imho it seems a little lacklustre compared to Rheingold and Walkure. It may pick up.


----------



## gardibolt

Nice DA! Thanks for the tip; ordered the 2nd cycle 1955 Walküre from MDT for 40 pounds less than Amazon's insane price.

Also got a couple other items in their Testament sale: 1970 live Karajan Zarathustra and Oistrakh playing Prokofiev and Khatchaturian violin sonatas. I considered the 1951 Knappertsbusch Gotterdammerung on MDT, but then decided to price check and found a used copy for $24 so that's on its way to me too.


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## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> Nice DA! Thanks for the tip; ordered the 2nd cycle 1955 Walküre from MDT for 40 pounds less than Amazon's insane price.
> 
> Also got a couple other items in their Testament sale: 1970 live Karajan Zarathustra and Oistrakh playing Prokofiev and Khatchaturian violin sonatas. I considered the 1951 Knappertsbusch Gotterdammerung on MDT, but then decided to price check and found a used copy for $24 so that's on its way to me too.


What a great Wagner shopping spree, you got some real gems there, I am listening to the 2nd 55 Keilberth Ring now

That 51 Knap Gotterdammerung will absolutely amaze you, no kidding!


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## Itullian

You guys are leaving me in the dust :lol:


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## gardibolt

Itullian said:


> You guys are leaving me in the dust :lol:


A monster you created, Tull.


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## gardibolt

Also got a couple of live Leonores from Opera Depot before their German opera sale ran out....at $3.58 each it was hard to go too far wrong. Plus the 1969 Bayreuth Tristan, to get back to Wagner.


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## Barbebleu

Acts 2 and 3 of the Solti Siegfried, Bayreuth 1983 are much better although Manfred Jung is a bit under-powered I believe he was a last minute replacement for Reiner Goldberg who pulled out at the last minute so I won't judge him too harshly.


----------



## DavidA

Barbebleu said:


> How well you know me DA. :lol:
> I'm listening at the moment, to the Solti Siegfried from Bayreuth 1983. Just finished Act 1 and there is a tremendous storm of booing at the end of the act, which if memory serves *was directed at the producer, Sir Peter Hall.* It's not bad but imho it seems a little lacklustre compared to Rheingold and Walkure. It may pick up.


i know this Ring had endless problems not least in Siegfried Reiner Goldberg found it impossible to learn the text and had to be replaced at the last minute by Manfred Jung. Someone called the production "an occasion too sad to imagine" as it was beset with technical problems. Part of these is that the backstage staff were inexperienced and couldn't get the mechanics going at the right time. Solti had had enough after a year and quit.


----------



## Peer Gynt

gardibolt said:


> Opera Depot is offering a free download of a 1973 Bayreuth Ring for signing up for their email spam list, plus they're having a general 60% off sale on German opera.


gardibolt,

A thousand thanks for the alert to Opera Depot's free Horst Stein download. I availed of this opportunity yesterday and started listening to Rheingold last night (1st two scenes). There are occasional (tape?) drop-outs and digital artefacts that have crept in to my downloaded copy (256 kps) but these are of naught when compared to the nature of the performance itself. The singers are very good, the Rhinemaidens secure and accurate, but the star for me so far is that man Stein. From this evidence he is a master of the Bayreuth acoustics, balances are very good and the orchestral playing is quite stunning at times. Pacing is very natural, good sound for the period. In sum, I love it! In fact I am so impressed that I have cut short my traversal of the Keilberth 52 Gotterdammerung (I'm currently up to Hagen's Watch) in order to complete my audition of this superb Stein Rheingold.


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## gardibolt

Glad you got some benefit from it, Peer Gynt. I've listened to Rheingold and part of Walküre of the Stein so far, and the performance impresses me too; I wish there were a bit less in the way of clicks and surface noise but what do you want for Free? The vocals come across extremely well, with a good bit of nuance.


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## gardibolt

Listening to the 1957 Knappertsbusch Götterdämmerung....the Act II Hoiho of Josef Greindl as Hagen is downright terrifying at volume, even bloodcurdling. The inveterate coughers even stop dead in their tracks. What an experience this must have been in the theatre.


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## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> Listening to the *1957 Knappertsbusch Götterdämmerung*....the Act II Hoiho of Josef Greindl as Hagen is downright terrifying at volume, even bloodcurdling. The inveterate coughers even stop dead in their tracks. What an experience this must have been in the theatre.


The 57 Knap Ring for Walhall Eternity has the best sound quality I have heard for any "mono" live wagner recording of the 1950's (not counting a Pristine XR) I was really thrilled first time I heard it. Voices are so clear and present, you can hear very deep into the orchestra soundscape.........what a great cast on hand, still only $10 at Amazon USA


----------



## gardibolt

Yes, that's the one. Delightful.


----------



## Peer Gynt

DarkAngel said:


> The 57 Knap Ring for Walhall Eternity has the best sound quality I have heard for any "mono" live wagner recording of the 1950's (not counting a Pristine XR) I was really thrilled first time I heard it. Voices are so clear and present, you can hear very deep into the orchestra soundscape.........what a great cast on hand, still only $10 at Amazon USA


*surreptitiously add to the list...*


----------



## DarkAngel

*1953 Bayreuth Krauss Parsifal.......greatness*

I normally will say that the 62 Knap Bayreuth is my very favorite overall Parsifal, but this 53 Krauss in the Pristine XR remaster now makes a serious challenge for that top spot. Vinay and Modl team up again (like previous years great 52 Tristan with Karajan) and just give a remarkable performance, no holding back here Modl really lets loose and gives such a vivid impassioned performance of this tortured soul and Vinay follows right along....they really worked well together at this time, I think the 53 Parsifal and 52 Tristan are Modl's very best Wagner work

And don't forget the Klingsor of Herman Uhde, what an unforgettable portrayal of the sinister fallen knight, the whole Act 2 is just amazing piece of vocal acting at its finest.....I have listened to it twice today

Andrew Rose has come through again, the Parsifal is every bit as improved in sound as the 53 Krauss Ring by Pristine XR......and that is saying a lot!










Modl and Vinay (right side couple) 52 Bayreuth


----------



## Itullian

^^Quite a cast there DA!!:tiphat:


----------



## DarkAngel

*51 Bayreuth Knap Parsifal*

This is a well known Parsifal available in many releases, I show the insanely cheap ZYX label top ($8 new Amazon USA, so cheap no matter what you think it is worth getting) which I have and really sounds great for 51 mono, it has the same main cast as 53 Krauss except Parsifal is now Windgassen (not Vinay) and a much different conducting style with Knap instead of Krauss

Knap has a slower more majestic monumental style in 51 which works good in some spots, but overall I prefer Krauss faster pace which generates more forward momentum and excitement in the dramatic scences........the whole act 2 Kilngsor - Kundry - Parsifal is much more dramatic and exciting with Krauss and Modl/Vinay sing that way also, Knap is just lacking some excitement here for me........some may like the slower Knap final scence better, more spiritual or profound perhaps, but again I am drawn to the 53 Krauss

The availability of Pristine XR sound for 53 Krauss definitely helps it edge out the other Parsifals from same period, sounds great


----------



## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> *51 Bayreuth Knap Parsifal*
> 
> This is a well known Parsifal available in many releases, I show the insanely cheap ZYX label top ($8 new Amazon USA, so cheap no matter what you think it is worth getting) which I have and really sounds great for 51 mono, it has the same main cast as 53 Krauss except Parsifal is now Windgassen (not Vinay) and a much different conducting style with Knap instead of Krauss
> 
> Knap has a slower more majestic monumental style in 51 which works good in some spots, but overall I prefer Krauss faster pace which generates more forward momentum and excitement in the dramatic scences........the whole act 2 Kilngsor - Kundry - Parsifal is much more dramatic and exciting with Krauss and Modl/Vinay sing that way also, Knap is just lacking some excitement here for me........some may like the slower Knap final scence better, more spiritual or profound perhaps, but again I am drawn to the 53 Krauss
> 
> The availability of Pristine XR sound for 53 Krauss definitely helps it edge out the other Parsifals from same period, sounds great


Kna's tempi in this opera tended to speed up as he got older, and the differences between his '51 and '62 recordings are striking. There's some loss in certain moments, as Kna could make these slow tempi work better than Levine (like watching paint dry) or even Goodall, but the gain in momentum and overall shape amply compensates. The '62 is one of those performances in which everything just seems to gel.

I agree that the Krauss '53 is very fine.


----------



## DarkAngel

Woodduck said:


> *Kna's tempi in this opera tended to speed up as he got older*, and the differences between his '51 and '62 recordings are striking. There's some loss in certain moments, as Kna could make these slow tempi work better than Levine (like watching paint dry) or even Goodall, but the gain in momentum and overall shape amply compensates. The '62 is one of those performances in which everything just seems to gel.
> 
> I agree that the Krauss '53 is very fine.


Duck I fully agree about tempo changes leading up to the 62,64 Knap Parsifals, I don't notice any obvious slowness in tempo by then only a masterful performance, but back in 51 Knap had a different take on how to perform the work (slowly)......

Also his 1950 Rings don't seem overly slow by comparison, the 51 Knap Gotterdammerung we all like so much seems very naturally paced, but his early 50s Parsifals are on the slow side


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## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> ^^Quite a cast there DA!!:tiphat:


Yeah......just your typical line-up of 1950s Bayreuth legends


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> *51 Bayreuth Knap Parsifal*
> 
> This is a well known Parsifal available in many releases, I show the insanely cheap ZYX label top ($8 new Amazon USA, so cheap no matter what you think it is worth getting) which I have and really sounds great for 51 mono, it has the same main cast as 53 Krauss except Parsifal is now Windgassen (not Vinay) and a much different conducting style with Knap instead of Krauss
> 
> Knap has a slower more majestic monumental style in 51 which works good in some spots, but overall I prefer Krauss faster pace which generates more forward momentum and excitement in the dramatic scences........the whole act 2 Kilngsor - Kundry - Parsifal is much more dramatic and exciting with Krauss and Modl/Vinay sing that way also, Knap is just lacking some excitement here for me........some may like the slower Knap final scence better, more spiritual or profound perhaps, but again I am drawn to the 53 Krauss
> 
> The availability of Pristine XR sound for 53 Krauss definitely helps it edge out the other Parsifals from same period, sounds great


For anyone interested here are Kna's Parsifal timings at Bayreuth
1951 4' 32"
1952 4' 23"
1954 4' 29"
1955 Don't have it. Drat!!
1956 4' 17"
1957 4' 22"
1958 4' 10" Mmm. Interesting!
1959 4' 09"
1960 4' 10"
1961 4' 15"
1962 4' 10"
1963 4' 15"
1964 4' 10" last time at Bayreuth.
Krauss conducted in 1953 and he clocked in at 3' 57".


----------



## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> For anyone interested here are Kna's Parsifal timings at Bayreuth
> *1951 4' 32"*
> 1952 4' 23"
> 1954 4' 29"
> 1955 Don't have it. Drat!!
> 1956 4' 17"
> 1957 4' 22"
> 1958 4' 10" Mmm. Interesting!
> 1959 4' 09"
> 1960 4' 10"
> 1961 4' 15"
> *1962 4' 10"*
> 1963 4' 15"
> 1964 4' 10" last time at Bayreuth.
> Krauss conducted in 1953 and he clocked in at 3' 57".


Thanks Barbie, I didn't check those timings when writing comments above, but they do back up the subjective impression that the 51 Parsifal sounds slow and the 62,64 sound "masterful"

53 Krauss Parsifal one of the fastest of any conductor.......


----------



## Woodduck

Barbebleu said:


> For anyone interested here are Kna's Parsifal timings at Bayreuth
> 1951 4' 32"
> 1952 4' 23"
> 1954 4' 29"
> 1955 Don't have it. Drat!!
> 1956 4' 17"
> 1957 4' 22"
> 1958 4' 10" Mmm. Interesting!
> 1959 4' 09"
> 1960 4' 10"
> 1961 4' 15"
> 1962 4' 10"
> 1963 4' 15"
> 1964 4' 10" last time at Bayreuth.
> Krauss conducted in 1953 and he clocked in at 3' 57".


Fascinating. It appears that in the mid-'50s Kna, himself in his late 60s, rethought his approach to _Parsifal._ To trim more than 20 minutes off his interpretation, while losing little of its _gravitas_ and enhancing its flow, is quite an achievement. For me his '62 tempi seem just about ideal in their balance of the lyrical/contemplative and the dramatically intense, although I know some still prefer the '51 (maybe partly out of a fondness for certain singers). Krauss in '53 makes some faster tempi work well; Boulez in '70, at tempi similar to Krauss's, sounds to me shallow and flippant in some of the more solemn music, riding over some of the score's expressive possibilities out of a desire to dispel its "sanctimoniousness," or some such nonsense.

Kna really believed in_ Parsifal_, and I feel that belief at every moment. He allows himself to disappear into the work, and thus allows me to experience the work directly; I never for a moment feel that I'm listening to a performance or an interpretation, but am simply absorbed into an alternative reality that becomes for four hours the only reality.


----------



## howlingfantods

DarkAngel said:


> Thanks Barbie, I didn't check those timings when writing comments above, but they do back up the subjective impression that the 51 Parsifal sounds slow and the 62,64 sound "masterful"
> 
> 53 Krauss Parsifal one of the fastest of any conductor.......


The Boulez and the Kegel are the only uncut recordings I have that are faster than the Krauss, they're both around 3:40 I believe, off the top of my head.

For Parsifals, I don't really favor the 1950s Bayreuth era casts. My favorite Gurnemanz performances are by Moll and Lloyd and Pape, my favorite Kundry performances are Ludwig, Minton, Meier, Dalis, my favorite Parsifals are King and Vickers, and my favorite Amfortases are Van Dam and Peter Mattei. There's something to be said for sumptuous sound quality for this opera, too, so it's a nice bonus for me that Modl and Weber and Windgassen and Vinay aren't really in my top slots for performances of these roles.


----------



## howlingfantods

Woodduck said:


> Fascinating. It appears that in the mid-'50s Kna, himself in his late 60s, rethought his approach to _Parsifal._ To trim more than 20 minutes off his interpretation, while losing little of its _gravitas_ and enhancing its flow, is quite an achievement. For me his '62 tempi seem just about ideal in their balance of the lyrical/contemplative and the dramatically intense, although I know some still prefer the '51 (maybe partly out of a fondness for certain singers). Krauss in '53 makes some faster tempi work well; Boulez in '70, at tempi similar to Krauss's, sounds to me shallow and flippant in some of the more solemn music, riding over some of the score's expressive possibilities out of a desire to dispel its "sanctimoniousness," or some such nonsense.
> 
> Kna really believed in_ Parsifal_, and I feel that belief at every moment. He allows himself to disappear into the work, and thus allows me to experience the work directly; I never for a moment feel that I'm listening to a performance or an interpretation, but am simply absorbed into an alternative reality that becomes for four hours the only reality.


Kegel and Boulez are both significantly faster than Krauss, as much faster than Krauss as Krauss is faster than Kna. Kegel makes it work better than Boulez does in my opinion--Kegel comes off urgent and dramatic but not necessarily drained of majesty and mystery the way Boulez often does.


----------



## Woodduck

howlingfantods said:


> Kegel and Boulez are both significantly faster than Krauss, as much faster than Krauss as Krauss is faster than Kna. Kegel makes it work better than Boulez does in my opinion--Kegel comes off urgent and dramatic but not necessarily drained of majesty and mystery the way Boulez often does.


Ah, I didn't realize Boulez was as extreme as that. I haven't heard his _Parsifal_ for decades, but the impression of shallowness has remained vivid over the years, along with the hooty and wobbly Kundry of Gwyneth Jones.

Re your previous post, I'm not as fond of some of the '50s casts as some here either - I don't much enjoy the voices of Modl or Greindl, for example - but I do think Uhde's Klingsor is matchless. His technically solid voice had that slightly deranged quality, and he makes most Klingsors sound like mere mustache twirlers.

My ideal cast, of the available postwar recordings, would probably be Vickers, Hotter, London, Ludwig or Dalis, and Uhde.


----------



## DarkAngel

Woodduck said:


> My ideal cast, of the available postwar recordings, would probably be Vickers, Hotter, London, Ludwig or Dalis, and Uhde.


*Ideal Parsifal Cast:*

Parsifal - Jess Thomas (magnificent heldentenor voice in 60-62)
Gurnemanz - Hans Hotter
Kundry - Modl (early 1950s)
Klingsor - Uhde (early 1950s)
Amfortas - London (1950s)








Hotter, Thomas 1961


----------



## howlingfantods

Woodduck said:


> Ah, I didn't realize Boulez was as extreme as that. I haven't heard his _Parsifal_ for decades, but the impression of shallowness has remained vivid over the years, along with the hooty and wobbly Kundry of Gwyneth Jones.
> 
> Re your previous post, I'm not as fond of some of the '50s casts as some here either - I don't much enjoy the voices of Modl or Greindl, for example - but I do think Uhde's Klingsor is matchless. His technically solid voice had that slightly deranged quality, and he makes most Klingsors sound like mere mustache twirlers.
> 
> My ideal cast, of the available postwar recordings, would probably be Vickers, Hotter, London, Ludwig or Dalis, and Uhde.


Yeah, Gwyneth wasn't really at her best, and King, who I think delivers one of the best performances in the role in the Kubelik, is less vivid in the Boulez too. But maybe I'm just prejudiced against Boulez's Wagner--I spent years not liking his Mahler so maybe I brought that over with me when I started listening to Wagner.

Agree that Uhde is a particularly good Klingsor, but there's been so many fine Klingsors, it's rarely been a major distinguishing feature for most recordings. Neidlinger, Mazura and McIntyre were really good too.


----------



## Barbebleu

Of course, overall timings never tell the whole story. I might look at them act by act if I can be bothered. I agree that Boulez can sound superficial but Kegel doesn't. It really depends on what each conductor spends those vital moments on when getting his interpretation across, if that makes any sense at all!


----------



## howlingfantods

DarkAngel said:


> *Ideal Parsifal Cast:*
> 
> Parsifal - Jess Thomas (magnificent heldentenor voice in 60-62)
> Gurnemanz - Hans Hotter
> Kundry - Modl (early 1950s)
> Klingsor - Uhde (early 1950s)
> Amfortas - London (1950s)


Ok, I listed some favorites before, but if I had to pick just one:

Parsifal - King (by a tiny hair over Vickers)
Gurnemanz - Moll
Kundry - Ludwig
Amfortas - Mattei (by a tiny hair over Van Dam)
Klingsor - Uhde (but like I said, I think a lot of fellas did just fine in this one)
Blumenmadchen - The set from 1962 that included Janowitz and Silja by a little bit over Solti's Popp and Te Kanawa or Karajan's Barbara Hendricks and Janet Perry.

ETA - despite all the discussion of the singers, I still think the person on the podium with the stick is by far the most important in terms of how good a recording of Parsifal is. Even with a less than ideal Parsifal and Kundry, Karajan's is one of the top tier recordings because of what he does with the music.

So far, of those I've listened to, Kubelik, Kna and Karajan are unmatched in this opera, with Kubelik being my top choice basically because he also has the benefit of a fantastic cast, slightly better than the 1962 Kna and significantly better than the Karajan.

Still really bitter that Furtwangler's 1951 performances at La Scala were never taped.


----------



## Woodduck

howlingfantods said:


> Ok, I listed some favorites before, but if I had to pick just one:
> 
> Parsifal - King (by a tiny hair over Vickers)
> Gurnemanz - Moll
> Kundry - Ludwig
> Amfortas - Mattei (by a tiny hair over Van Dam)
> Klingsor - Uhde (but like I said, I think a lot of fellas did just fine in this one)
> Blumenmadchen - The set from 1962 that included Janowitz and Silja by a little bit over Solti's Popp and Te Kanawa or Karajan's Barbara Hendricks and Janet Perry.


Yeah, wasn't Gundula Janowitz the flower maiden of dreams? It's a wonder Kundry found anything left to do when she arrived with her big guns, if you catch my drift. That whole ensemble in '62 was just so sweet-smelling, and for me Kna got the tempo just right to let Gundula and Anja float their Arabian melismas. A lot of conductors take it too fast.

Have others noticed, by the way, the subtle Orientalisms in the music of Kundry and the flower maidens? Not only those sinuous lines for the girls, but the swaying figure representing Kundry's enchantment, in an "Oriental" minor mode suggestive of a snake charmer: Klingsor plays his pipe, and the deadly cobra Kundry rises up out of her basket. Was Wagner conscious of this, or was it his incredibly sensitive and capacious subconscious remembering the imagery surrounding snakes? She does, after all, wear a snakeskin belt. Kundry, Gundryggia, Herodias, Hollenrose - and the serpent in the garden, an anti-matter Eden...

Lest we forget, _Parsifal_ is set in the mountains of Moorish Spain. The Arabian aspect of it is completely ignored in latter-day productions (along with many other aspects of it), but it was just like Wagner to tinge the music of evil enchantment ever so slightly with the sound of the East.

Hey, don't get me started on this most amazing opera!


----------



## Barbebleu

Right from the fantastic start with Klingsor's evocation, right to the end, Act 2 of Parsifal is just sublime. One of my favourite Acts along with Act 2 of Gotterdammerung.

Is there a Parsifal thread that we could be posting on rather than this historical one?


----------



## Woodduck

Barbebleu said:


> Right from the fantastic start with Klingsor's evocation, right to the end, Act 2 of Parsifal is just sublime. One of my favourite Acts along with Act 2 of Gotterdammerung.
> 
> Is there a Parsifal thread that we could be posting on rather than this historical one?


There is somewhere. Not too long ago. Itullian's, I think. There was also some fascinating (he said modestly) discussion on a thread - Itullian again, bless him - "Is Wagner a guy thing?" How that one got into _Parsifal_ I can't remember, but it got in deep.


----------



## Woodduck

howlingfantods said:


> Ok, I listed some favorites before, but if I had to pick just one:
> 
> Parsifal - King (by a tiny hair over Vickers)
> Gurnemanz - Moll
> Kundry - Ludwig
> Amfortas - Mattei (by a tiny hair over Van Dam)
> Klingsor - Uhde (but like I said, I think a lot of fellas did just fine in this one)
> Blumenmadchen - The set from 1962 that included Janowitz and Silja by a little bit over Solti's Popp and Te Kanawa or Karajan's Barbara Hendricks and Janet Perry.
> 
> ETA - despite all the discussion of the singers, I still think the person on the podium with the stick is by far the most important in terms of how good a recording of Parsifal is. Even with a less than ideal Parsifal and Kundry, Karajan's is one of the top tier recordings because of what he does with the music.
> 
> So far, of those I've listened to, Kubelik, Kna and Karajan are unmatched in this opera, with Kubelik being my top choice basically because he also has the benefit of a fantastic cast, slightly better than the 1962 Kna and significantly better than the Karajan.
> 
> Still really bitter that Furtwangler's 1951 performances at La Scala were never taped.


Oh my God, thanks for telling us about Furtwangler's _Parsifal_ that we'll never hear. Now I can sink into a month-long depression.

I agree the conductor is key in this piece. I haven't yet heard the Kubelik but look forward to it. The stereo Karajan I can live without; his Parsifal and Kundry are vocally just not up to the job, so there goes act 2, and there are a few annoying eccentricities in the conducting and sound balances. Somehow when Karajan conducts Wagner (in his studio efforts) I'm always hearing Karajan conducting Wagner. With Kna I forget there's a human being doing it; it's just the work speaking for itself. By the way, this tiny glimpse of Kna at work is wonderful to see and hear:






Have you heard the old excerpts with Karl Muck? He certainly knew his way around the score.


----------



## Barbebleu

Woodduck said:


> Oh my God, thanks for telling us about Furtwangler's _Parsifal_ that we'll never hear. Now I can sink into a month-long depression.
> 
> I agree the conductor is key in this piece. I haven't yet heard the Kubelik but look forward to it. The stereo Karajan I can live without; his Parsifal and Kundry are vocally just not up to the job, so there goes act 2, and there are a few annoying eccentricities in the conducting and sound balances. Somehow when Karajan conducts Wagner (in his studio efforts) I'm always hearing Karajan conducting Wagner. With Kna I forget there's a human being doing it; it's just the work speaking for itself. By the way, this tiny glimpse of Kna at work is wonderful to see and hear:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have you heard the old excerpts with Karl Muck? He certainly knew his way around the score.


I have heard Muck. I have a nice vinyl double album with some wonderful pre electric excerpts from Bayreuth Parsifals. I've never seen it in digital format so it gets pulled out every so often to remind myself of a tradition that would have been pretty well what Wagner heard himself.


----------



## howlingfantods

Woodduck said:


> Oh my God, thanks for telling us about Furtwangler's _Parsifal_ that we'll never hear. Now I can sink into a month-long depression.
> 
> I agree the conductor is key in this piece. I haven't yet heard the Kubelik but look forward to it. The stereo Karajan I can live without; his Parsifal and Kundry are vocally just not up to the job, so there goes act 2, and there are a few annoying eccentricities in the conducting and sound balances. Somehow when Karajan conducts Wagner (in his studio efforts) I'm always hearing Karajan conducting Wagner. With Kna I forget there's a human being doing it; it's just the work speaking for itself. By the way, this tiny glimpse of Kna at work is wonderful to see and hear:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have you heard the old excerpts with Karl Muck? He certainly knew his way around the score.


Yeah, I hear what you're saying about Karajan, especially late Karajan post the middle of the 70s or so. Still, it's just amazingly beautiful even if somewhat synthetic. When I listen to his Parsifal, I'm constantly amazed at how beautiful what I'm hearing is. Or occasionally cringing at some high notes that Vejzovic is torturing.

I've heard something that resembled Muck's take on the Transformation music behind a ton of static, I'm not sure whether that counts :lol: Actually, the thing I most liked from the excerpts I've heard was what the Parsifal bells sounded like before they melted them down, even though it seemed like the bells were a little flat. I also love how much portamento the old school conductors used--conductors nowadays are often so metronomically rigid. So much more musically expressive. You could definitely tell that there was a lot of beauty behind all the static (although you could also tell that maybe operas didn't really work on polishing their choirs as much back then).

Hmm, getting back to the historical thread, I do think Kna got significantly better by 1962--I felt like the 1951 was a little underrehearsed, with some patchy playing and choral work, and some of the principals didn't really get their roles yet. Maybe Kna's antipathy to spending time in rehearsals is why it took him a decade to figure out how he wanted this opera to sound. The 1962 and 1964 versions are really magnificent, but I don't pull the 1951 off the shelf that often.


----------



## Woodduck

howlingfantods said:


> I've heard something that resembled Muck's take on the Transformation music behind a ton of static, I'm not sure whether that counts :lol: Actually, the thing I most liked from the excerpts I've heard was what the Parsifal bells sounded like before they melted them down, even though it seemed like the bells were a little flat. I also love how much portamento the old school conductors used--conductors nowadays are often so metronomically rigid. So much more musically expressive. You could definitely tell that there was a lot of beauty behind all the static (although you could also tell that maybe operas didn't really work on polishing their choirs as much back then).


I was amazed at the hypnotic effect of Muck's prelude. His control of the long arc of the opening melody just erases time and space. Those old German conductors (including Kna and Furti) really knew how to conduct by the musical unit and not the barline, projecting what Wagner in his _On Conducting_ called the "melos." They didn't care if it sometimes resulted in slight imperfections in ensemble. Every musician in the orchestra was expected to feel the phrase and play it from the heart. Likewise with portamento: when I heard the abridged Bayreuth _Tristan_ from the '20s under, I think, Elmendorff, the sliding of the string players startled me. I think in the "old days" (at my age I have to be careful to say what I mean by that!) conductors were more likely to feel that they were _releasing_ the music in their players, as opposed to controlling it, with the corollary that they weren't so uptight about absolute mechanical perfection. In consequence the orchestra could just go mad with intensity and passion, as it typically did for Furtwangler. In _Parsifal_, no one - certainly not Karajan, for all his carefully cultivated beauties - makes the act one transformation music cry from the depths the way Kna does. He just _lets it out,_ and I find it almost unbearable.


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## DarkAngel

Wagners Vision boxset which I have often praised for its great choices of best Wagner operas of the 1950s chooses 51 Knap Parsifal as its complete version, I was hoping they would surprise me with something different.

Tragically the MET boxset contains no Parsifal......I just realized that 

Barbie's timing list for Knap Parsifals has inspired me to get one more between 56-64 which have his faster timings, since I have already said in my best singer list that Jess Thomas is my favorite Parsifal this version on its way.......61 Knap










Yes I know almost same cast as famous 62 Knap, but these great singers can give rare insightful performances everytime they sing, always something new to hear and slightly new techniques depending on the chemistry that night etc


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## Barbebleu

A few more Parsifal timings for those with too much time on their hands.
Bayreuth 65 Cluytens 4' 8"
Bayreuth 66 Boulez 3' 50" (Don't worry, he gets quicker!)
Bayreuth 68 Boulez 3' 43"
Bayreuth 69 Stein 3' 57"
Bayreuth 70 Boulez 3' 39" (Told you)
Bayreuth 72 Jochum 3' 51"
Bayreuth 76 Stein 3' 49"
Bayreuth 85 Levine A soporific 4' 39"
Bayreuth 98 Sinopoli 4' 29"
Bayreuth 2012 Jordan 4' 7"
The slowest I have is the Bayreuth 85 with Levine although Goodall at Covent Garden in 1971 runs it close at 4' 34" and the quickest complete one is Boulez in 1970 at 3' 39".
I have two faster ones, Rome 1950 3' 29" and Venice 1970 3' 14" but these have some little cuts so don't count.

If anyone really wants me to I will have a look at the individual Act timings and post them.


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## Marschallin Blair

Instead of talking about the 'spell of Kundry,' I think we should talk about the 'spell of Woodduck.'

_Parsifal! Parsifal! Parsifal!_


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## Barbebleu

Woodduck said:


> I was amazed at the hypnotic effect of Muck's prelude. His control of the long arc of the opening melody just erases time and space. Those old German conductors (including Kna and Furti) really knew how to conduct by the musical unit and not the barline, projecting what Wagner in his _On Conducting_ called the "melos." They didn't care if it sometimes resulted in slight imperfections in ensemble. Every musician in the orchestra was expected to feel the phrase and play it from the heart. Likewise with portamento: when I heard the abridged Bayreuth _Tristan_ from the '20s under, I think, Elmendorff, the sliding of the string players startled me. I think in the "old days" (at my age I have to be careful to say what I mean by that!) conductors were more likely to feel that they were _releasing_ the music in their players, as opposed to controlling it, with the corollary that they weren't so uptight about absolute mechanical perfection. In consequence the orchestra could just go mad with intensity and passion, as it typically did for Furtwangler. In _Parsifal_, no one - certainly not Karajan, for all his carefully cultivated beauties - makes the act one transformation music cry from the depths the way Kna does. He just _lets it out,_ and I find it almost unbearable.


The vinyl album I have has the following tracks:
Side 1 
Act 1 Prelude - Furtwangler 1938
He, Ho Waldhuter hier - Paul Knupfer 1913
Von Bade Kehrt der Konig heim - Ivar Andresen/Gotthelf Pistor conductor Frieder Weissmann 1927
Werwandlungsmusik - Knappertsbusch 1928
Nun Achte wohl - Andresen/Weissmann 1927
Side 2
Zum letzten liebesmahle - Muck 1927
Das Weihegefases gottlicher gehallt - Theodor Scheidl 1927
Durch Mittleid wissend - Muck 1927
Side 3
Hier, Hier was das tosen - Siegfried Wagner 1925
Komm, Komm holder knabe - Muck 1927
Last ab! Ihr fangt mich nicht - Lorenz/Genia Guszalewicz/Siegfried Wagner 1925
Ich Sah das kind - Frida Leider/Barbirolli 1931
Amfortas, die Wunde - Melchior/ Paul Breisach 1925
Seit ewigkeiten - Astrid Varnay/Hermann Weigert 1951
Side 4
Act 3 prelude - Siegfried Wagner 1927
Oh gnade hochstes heil - Ludwig Weber/Issay Dobrowen 1951
So ward es uns verhiesen - Kipnis/Siegfried Wagner 1927
Mein vater - Clarence Whitehill 1914
Nur eine waffe taugt - Fritz Vogelstrom 1921


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## Woodduck

Let me add to this and go all the way back to Parsifal's first conductor, Hermann Levi, chosen by Wagner for the premiere performances in 1882:

Parsifal (complete) timings
3.38 Pierre Boulez, Bayreuth 1970
3.44 Clemens Krauss, Bayreuth 1953 (Jonathan Brown has 3.52)
3.49 Pierre Boulez, Bayreuth 1966
3.55 Hartmut Haenchen, Copenhagen 22 March 2012
3.58 Wilhelm Furtwängler, Milano 1951
4.02 Christian Thielemann, recorded at Staatsoper, Wien in June 2005 (Deutsche Grammophon)
4.04 Herman Levi, Bayreuth 1882
4.08 Michael Balling, Bayreuth 1904
4.10 Hans Knappertsbusch, Bayreuth 1962
4.12 Wilhelm Furtwängler Bayreuth 1936
4.15 Felix Mottl, Bayreuth 1888
4.17 Herbert von Karajan (1981, Deutsche Grammophon)
4.19 Anton Seidl, Bayreuth 1897
4.22 Siegfried Wagner, Bayreuth 1909
4.23 Fischer, Bayreuth 1882
4.23 Hans Knappertsbusch, Bayreuth 1952
4.25 Armin Jordan (Hans-Jürgen Syberberg's Parsifal film, 1982) (according to the cover)
4.27 Karl Muck, Bayreuth 1901
4.28 Hans Knappertsbusch, Bayreuth 1954
4.29 Kaehler, Bayreuth 1924
4.33 Hans Knappertsbusch, Bayreuth 1951
4.33 James Levine, Bayreuth 1990
4.42 Arturo Toscanini, Bayreuth 1931

The most amazing figure here, obviously, is Toscanini's 4'42." His performance, which still holds the record for the slowest ever at Bayreuth, was highly praised by the famous critic James Huneker, and there even appears to be a book or essay on the subject by Alfred Einstein:

http://www.worldcat.org/title/bayreuth-1931-2-parsifal-unter-toscanini/oclc/255024934

It's a pity we have no complete Wagner operas recorded by Toscanini, who was one of the great Wagner conductors. My introduction to Wagner in my early teens was through a 78 rpm recording of him conducting "Dawn and Siegfried's Rhine Journey," which I still recall as a superb performance. I have exerpts from _DieWalkure_ and _Gotterdammerung_ sung by Helen Traubel and Lauritz Melchior, tantalizing tastes of what could have been some great performances of the complete operas. Here's the _Gotterdammerung_ duet; hold on to your seats!






When I hear Wagner performed like this I want to kill myself and go directly to Wagner Heaven where all these people are now living and singing and playing all day long.

Oh well. Back to Jay Hunter Morris and Deborah Voigt.


----------



## Woodduck

Barbebleu said:


> The vinyl album I have has the following tracks:
> Side 1
> Act 1 Prelude - Furtwangler 1938
> He, Ho Waldhuter hier - Paul Knupfer 1913
> Von Bade Kehrt der Konig heim - Ivar Andresen/Gotthelf Pistor conductor Frieder Weissmann 1927
> Werwandlungsmusik - Knappertsbusch 1928
> Nun Achte wohl - Andresen/Weissmann 1927
> Side 2
> Zum letzten liebesmahle - Muck 1927
> Das Weihegefases gottlicher gehallt - Theodor Scheidl 1927
> Durch Mittleid wissend - Muck 1927
> Side 3
> Hier, Hier was das tosen - Siegfried Wagner 1925
> Komm, Komm holder knabe - Muck 1927
> Last ab! Ihr fangt mich nicht - Lorenz/Genia Guszalewicz/Siegfried Wagner 1925
> Ich Sah das kind - Frida Leider/Barbirolli 1931
> Amfortas, die Wunde - Melchior/ Paul Breisach 1925
> Seit ewigkeiten - Astrid Varnay/Hermann Weigert 1951
> Side 4
> Act 3 prelude - Siegfried Wagner 1927
> Oh gnade hochstes heil - Ludwig Weber/Issay Dobrowen 1951
> So ward es uns verhiesen - Kipnis/Siegfried Wagner 1927
> Mein vater - Clarence Whitehill 1914
> Nur eine waffe taugt - Fritz Vogelstrom 1921
> 
> View attachment 75779


All I can say is WOW! A journey back into history. I don't know some of those performers at all.


----------



## Barbebleu

M


Woodduck said:


> Oh well. Back to Jay Hunter Morris and Deborah Voigt.


Or even worse, Lance (the yodeller) Ryan! Oh my poor ears.


----------



## Barbebleu

Woodduck said:


> All I can say is WOW! A journey back into history. I don't know some of those performers at all.


Some of it is pretty ropey but if you listen through the antiquated recordings you hear artists with a real feel for the music and the tradition. I was going to do a digital conversion but then I thought, when am I ever going to listen to it again. The conversion takes place in real time so I'm just as well listening to it.


----------



## Woodduck

Barbebleu said:


> M
> 
> Or even worse, Lance (the yodeller) Ryan! Oh my poor ears.


I hadn't heard him and had to find this on YT.






Yeah, my poor ears too. Petra Lang's no prize either. Sad, sad, sad.


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## Barbebleu

He's Barenboim's Siegfried in both Berlin and Milan Rings. I can only think he has some compromising photos of Barenboim and that's why he got the gig. Otherwise I'm baffled.


----------



## Barbebleu

Woodduck said:


> I hadn't heard him and had to find this on YT.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, my poor ears too. Petra Lang's no prize either. Sad, sad, sad.


Oh goodness, that is beyond awful. Ryan is desperate and Lang sounds as if she's singing through some weird, pinched megaphone. I'm astonished this was actually inflicted on an unsuspecting public.


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## Barbebleu

The Traubel/Melchior duets on YT are just sensational. Thanks Woodduck for the steer.


----------



## Itullian

Woodduck said:


> Let me add to this and go all the way back to Parsifal's first conductor, Hermann Levi, chosen by Wagner for the premiere performances in 1882:
> 
> Parsifal (complete) timings
> 3.38 Pierre Boulez, Bayreuth 1970
> 3.44 Clemens Krauss, Bayreuth 1953 (Jonathan Brown has 3.52)
> 3.49 Pierre Boulez, Bayreuth 1966
> 3.55 Hartmut Haenchen, Copenhagen 22 March 2012
> 3.58 Wilhelm Furtwängler, Milano 1951
> 4.02 Christian Thielemann, recorded at Staatsoper, Wien in June 2005 (Deutsche Grammophon)
> 4.04 Herman Levi, Bayreuth 1882
> 4.08 Michael Balling, Bayreuth 1904
> 4.10 Hans Knappertsbusch, Bayreuth 1962
> 4.12 Wilhelm Furtwängler Bayreuth 1936
> 4.15 Felix Mottl, Bayreuth 1888
> 4.17 Herbert von Karajan (1981, Deutsche Grammophon)
> 4.19 Anton Seidl, Bayreuth 1897
> 4.22 Siegfried Wagner, Bayreuth 1909
> 4.23 Fischer, Bayreuth 1882
> 4.23 Hans Knappertsbusch, Bayreuth 1952
> 4.25 Armin Jordan (Hans-Jürgen Syberberg's Parsifal film, 1982) (according to the cover)
> 4.27 Karl Muck, Bayreuth 1901
> 4.28 Hans Knappertsbusch, Bayreuth 1954
> 4.29 Kaehler, Bayreuth 1924
> 4.33 Hans Knappertsbusch, Bayreuth 1951
> 4.33 James Levine, Bayreuth 1990
> 4.42 Arturo Toscanini, Bayreuth 1931
> 
> The most amazing figure here, obviously, is Toscanini's 4'42." His performance, which still holds the record for the slowest ever at Bayreuth, was highly praised by the famous critic James Huneker, and there even appears to be a book or essay on the subject by Alfred Einstein:
> 
> http://www.worldcat.org/title/bayreuth-1931-2-parsifal-unter-toscanini/oclc/255024934
> 
> *It's a pity we have no complete Wagner operas recorded by Toscanini,* who was one of the great Wagner conductors. My introduction to Wagner in my early teens was through a 78 rpm recording of him conducting "Dawn and Siegfried's Rhine Journey," which I still recall as a superb performance. I have exerpts from _DieWalkure_ and _Gotterdammerung_ sung by Helen Traubel and Lauritz Melchior, tantalizing tastes of what could have been some great performances of the complete operas. Here's the _Gotterdammerung_ duet; hold on to your seats!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When I hear Wagner performed like this I want to kill myself and go directly to Wagner Heaven where all these people are now living and singing and playing all day long.
> 
> Oh well. Back to Jay Hunter Morris and Deborah Voigt.


----------



## howlingfantods

Woodduck said:


> Let me add to this and go all the way back to Parsifal's first conductor, Hermann Levi, chosen by Wagner for the premiere performances in 1882:
> 
> Parsifal (complete) timings
> 3.38  Pierre Boulez, Bayreuth 1970
> 3.44 Clemens Krauss, Bayreuth 1953 (Jonathan Brown has 3.52)
> 3.49 Pierre Boulez, Bayreuth 1966
> 3.55 Hartmut Haenchen, Copenhagen 22 March 2012
> 3.58 Wilhelm Furtwängler, Milano 1951
> 4.02 Christian Thielemann, recorded at Staatsoper, Wien in June 2005 (Deutsche Grammophon)
> 4.04 Herman Levi, Bayreuth 1882
> 4.08 Michael Balling, Bayreuth 1904
> 4.10 Hans Knappertsbusch, Bayreuth 1962
> 4.12 Wilhelm Furtwängler Bayreuth 1936
> 4.15 Felix Mottl, Bayreuth 1888
> 4.17 Herbert von Karajan (1981, Deutsche Grammophon)
> 4.19 Anton Seidl, Bayreuth 1897
> 4.22 Siegfried Wagner, Bayreuth 1909
> 4.23 Fischer, Bayreuth 1882
> 4.23 Hans Knappertsbusch, Bayreuth 1952
> 4.25 Armin Jordan (Hans-Jürgen Syberberg's Parsifal film, 1982) (according to the cover)
> 4.27 Karl Muck, Bayreuth 1901
> 4.28 Hans Knappertsbusch, Bayreuth 1954
> 4.29 Kaehler, Bayreuth 1924
> 4.33 Hans Knappertsbusch, Bayreuth 1951
> 4.33 James Levine, Bayreuth 1990
> 4.42 Arturo Toscanini, Bayreuth 1931


The Jordan's a lot faster than that--it's one of the quicker ones actually, the timing you have is probably for the full film including titles, credits, transition scenes and so forth. The musical performance is right around 4'05. Another discrepancy is the 1953 Krauss--I've got it at 3:56 for my Archipel version.

To add to these, Gergiev 2009 is 4'18, heavily cut Gui 1950 is 3'29, Kegel 1978 is 3'40, Kna 1964 is 4'10, Kubelik 1980 is 4'13, Levine Met 1992 is 4'29, Levine Bayreuth 1985 is 4'38, Solti 1972 is 4'19.


----------



## Barbebleu

What a night that must have been, Carnegie Hall 22 November 1941, and a joyful recital with Melchior, Traubel and Toscanini. Little did the audience suspect that two weeks later hell would be unleashed.


----------



## Barbebleu

howlingfantods said:


> The Jordan's a lot faster than that--it's one of the quicker ones actually, the timing you have is probably for the full film including titles, credits, transition scenes and so forth. The musical performance is right around 4'05. Another discrepancy is the 1953 Krauss--I've got it at 3:56 for my Archipel version.
> 
> To add to these, Gergiev 2009 is 4'18, heavily cut Gui 1950 is 3'29, Kegel 1978 is 3'40, Kna 1964 is 4'10, Kubelik 1980 is 4'13, Levine Met 1992 is 4'29, Levine Bayreuth 1985 is 4'38, Solti 1972 is 4'19.


I concur with the Krauss, mine clocks in at 3' 57". Pappano is 4' 13", Karajan 1961 is 3' 56", Thielemann at Salzburg 2013 4' 3", Pretre at the Met 1966 4' 2", Leitner, Paris 1954 3' 58".

We all could go on and on with this but I think we all get the message. Performances can vary by as much as an hour but that's not the whole story. Kegel although quite speedy sounds slower and Kna's early ones don't sound torpid at all. I've not had a chance to listen to the new Thielemann but he clocks in at 4' 3" just like his live Salzburg version.
Whatever, it's all good!


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


>


This is on YT by the way if anyone cares.


----------



## arbiter elegantiarum

Woodduck said:


> In _Parsifal_, no one - certainly not Karajan, for all his carefully cultivated beauties - makes the act one transformation music cry from the depths the way Kna does. He just _lets it out,_ and I find it almost unbearable.


Listen to the Transformation Music from Parsifal at BBC Proms 2000:

http://www.mediafire.com/download/yajmk9p59y0dy31/Rattle.mp3

The review of earlier performance from 1997 describes it equally well:

"Rarely have I heard a Transformation Scene as magnificent as Rattle's. It is so overwhelming that it shocks, and the power of the playing is astonishing. The depth of tone from the strings have extraordinary passion, and the brass are gloriously full-throated. Wagner's markings of poco crescendo and ff are taken at face value, but the moment of the music's apotheosis with trumpets, trombones, horns, woodwind and timpani playing at ff for three bars on a sustained single note (moving to diminuendo) is simply shattering."

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2000/may00/parsifal.htm


----------



## howlingfantods

arbiter elegantiarum said:


> Listen to the Transformation Music from Parsifal at BBC Proms 2000:
> 
> http://www.mediafire.com/download/yajmk9p59y0dy31/Rattle.mp3
> 
> The review of earlier performance from 1997 describes it equally well:
> 
> "Rarely have I heard a Transformation Scene as magnificent as Rattle's. It is so overwhelming that it shocks, and the power of the playing is astonishing. The depth of tone from the strings have extraordinary passion, and the brass are gloriously full-throated. Wagner's markings of poco crescendo and ff are taken at face value, but the moment of the music's apotheosis with trumpets, trombones, horns, woodwind and timpani playing at ff for three bars on a sustained single note (moving to diminuendo) is simply shattering."
> 
> http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2000/may00/parsifal.htm


Thanks for the clip, that's beautiful. I coincidentally just ordered that 1997 live recording a couple of days ago, so I'm on pins and needles waiting for that delivery, even more so now.


----------



## Woodduck

arbiter elegantiarum said:


> Listen to the Transformation Music from Parsifal at BBC Proms 2000:
> 
> http://www.mediafire.com/download/yajmk9p59y0dy31/Rattle.mp3
> 
> The review of earlier performance from 1997 describes it equally well:
> 
> "Rarely have I heard a Transformation Scene as magnificent as Rattle's. It is so overwhelming that it shocks, and the power of the playing is astonishing. The depth of tone from the strings have extraordinary passion, and the brass are gloriously full-throated. Wagner's markings of poco crescendo and ff are taken at face value, but the moment of the music's apotheosis with trumpets, trombones, horns, woodwind and timpani playing at ff for three bars on a sustained single note (moving to diminuendo) is simply shattering."
> 
> http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2000/may00/parsifal.htm


Thanks for that. It is a strong performance - in the contemporary manner. By that I mean that for all its force the music does not blossom and move organically: it does not breathe, as it does under Knappertsbusch and as it must have under Furtwangler. That is the secret of great Wagner conducting - I might say of great Romantic music-making - and it seems almost to be a lost secret. Rattle makes a glorious noise and builds a great climax, but he controls the music like a military commander (like a typical modern conductor), and the music's rhetoric does not break free of the bar line and become a living thing. This was the whole meaning of Wagner's insistence on flexibility of tempo, the freedom from the metronome that allows a conductor to adjust speed subtly to music's ever-changing expressive import, making it a true image of organic life, and it was a thing well-understood and practiced by the great conductors, instrumentalists, and singers of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Adhere to a rigid division of time, and music cannot truly live, no matter how well-judged its dynamics and balances.

The difference is most glaring in the quiet chromatic passage separating the two great outbursts of Amfortas' agony. Rattle simply drives it onward, as if impatient for the next climax, while Knappertsbusch relaxes the tempo subtly and proceeds to search out the sweet and painful convolutions of its chromaticism, making us realize what astonishing music it is while patiently building the emotion from within.

I'd be interested in hearing the rest of Rattle's performance.


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## Belowpar

Woodduck said:


> This was the whole meaning of Wagner's insistence on flexibility of tempo, the freedom from the metronome that allows a conductor to adjust speed subtly to music's ever-changing expressive import, making it a true image of organic life, and it was a thing well-understood and practiced by the great conductors, instrumentalists, and singers of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Adhere to a rigid division of time, and music cannot truly live, no matter how well-judged its dynamics and balances.


Beautifully put. I've never seen you post on the non classical music forum, but I would add this is even more true of modern 'popular' music. All tracks are computer controller metronomic and the resultant sounds are beat led, flat and without beauty and rhythm. To compensate producers ensure there is never a moments calm where light and shade might enter. It is the very antithesis of MUSIC.

..apologies for my little oh so heartfelt rant, I digress. Carry on , carry on...


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## Woodduck

Belowpar said:


> Beautifully put. I've never seen you post on the non classical music forum, but I would add this is even more true of modern 'popular' music. All tracks are computer controller metronomic and the resultant sounds are beat led, flat and without beauty and rhythm. To compensate producers ensure there is never a moments calm where light and shade might enter. It is the very antithesis of MUSIC.
> 
> ..apologies for my little oh so heartfelt rant, I digress. Carry on , carry on...


True, I don't post on non-classical threads, because my interest is almost entirely classical. But I certainly appreciate that rhythmic freedom and flexibility is essential to _all_ music-making (although of course music may specifically require a rigid beat at times). It was one of the liberating aspects of the HIP early music movement that the "sewing machine rhythms" so commonly heard in Baroque music in the '50s and '60s gave way to a more flexible articulation, with performers learning to apply localized rubato and play around with time within the "clockwork universe" of the 17th-century aesthetic. We'll never really know how they did it in Mozart's day, but we know that music-making in the Romantic era placed a high value on the performer's freedom of expression, and early recordings allow us to glimpse a vitality and spontaneity of rhythmic articulation which can seem positively licentious today.


----------



## gardibolt

Listening (yet again) to the 1957 Knappertsbusch Götterdämmerung with headphones. I'd like to note the 100th page of this thread (at least by my view) by heartily thanking Dark Angel, Itullian, and everyone else who I am forgetting for recommending this Ring. Just a stunning recording and amazing performances all round. Even the lesser players are hitting way above their weight on this one. If pressed for a favorite Ring it's usually the one I heard last but this one keeps finding its way onto my playlist over and over.


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> Listening (yet again) to the *1957 Knappertsbusch Götterdämmerung* with headphones. I'd like to note the 100th page of this thread (at least by my view) by heartily thanking Dark Angel, Itullian, and everyone else who I am forgetting for recommending this Ring. *Just a stunning recording and amazing performances all round*. Even the lesser players are hitting way above their weight on this one. If pressed for a favorite Ring it's usually the one I heard last but this one keeps finding its way onto my playlist over and over.


Keep spreading the word brother...........

I previously didn't realize how consistently Bayreuth was turning out masterful performances one after another year after year like clockwork from 1951 re-opening thru the mid 1960s, now we have new remastered CD sets of these with best sound ever and very cheap prices, life is good for wagnerites, buy buy buy


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## Itullian

The Walhall Knap Rings are unbelievable. All Wagnerians need to get them.
Sound, price, casts are fantastic.
'57 sound is especially good.


----------



## DarkAngel

Woodduck said:


> Thanks for that. It is a strong performance - in the contemporary manner. By that I mean that for all its force the music does not blossom and move organically: it does not breathe, as it does under Knappertsbusch and as it must have under Furtwangler. That is the secret of great Wagner conducting - I might say of great Romantic music-making - and it seems almost to be a lost secret. Rattle makes a glorious noise and builds a great climax, but he controls the music like a military commander (like a typical modern conductor), and the music's rhetoric does not break free of the bar line and become a living thing. This was the whole meaning of Wagner's insistence on flexibility of tempo, the freedom from the metronome that allows a conductor to adjust speed subtly to music's ever-changing expressive import, making it a true image of organic life, and it was a thing well-understood and practiced by the great conductors, instrumentalists, and singers of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Adhere to a rigid division of time, and music cannot truly live, no matter how well-judged its dynamics and balances.
> 
> The difference is most glaring in the quiet chromatic passage separating the two great outbursts of Amfortas' agony. Rattle simply drives it onward, as if impatient for the next climax, while Knappertsbusch relaxes the tempo subtly and proceeds to search out the sweet and painful convolutions of its chromaticism, making us realize what astonishing music it is while patiently building the emotion from within.


It's hard to describe these subjective abstract things in the sound and singing of Wagner, but when you hear them done with great skill and insight there is such a harmonious timeless beauty to these sounds, almost beyond the physical limits of human design. The organic flowing nature of the music, the shimmering soft beauty and thunderous surges all morph and evolve like a living spirit brought to life by the skilled conductor........

Thank you for reminding us what a glorious mission we have to discover these wonderful things


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## Itullian

Such eloquence. 
No way I can follow this.....................


----------



## Itullian

Finally.............................


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Finally.............................


Very worthy addition, Ward Marston at Naxos had to work overtime to remaster this, source media was 52 - 78 rpm sides

I recently purchased this similar Tristan but have not given it a full listen......need a new proof reader for album covers, Baacham? (Beecham)


----------



## gardibolt

Just got this one in the mail, which looks pretty interesting:








From the Fanfare review:


> This is probably the appropriate place to point out that Caniell has taken the kind of liberty that has infuriated some of his critics, but that I support completely. In this 1942 performance, Traubel shattered the high B near the end of"Dich teure Halle," emitting a note that barely resembled what we call music. In other performances, including some broadcasts, Traubel sang the note perfectly. Caniell has edited in a B from another Traubel broadcast. Even knowing that (he is candid in his notes) I could not hear the edit-it is perfectly done. And it is the right thing to do for those of us who plan to listen to the performance more than once, as long as he is upfront about it. There is also an odd missing piece of Tannhäuser's Ode to Venus that is probably a broadcast engineering mistake (it seems unlikely that it would have been a musical cut) and so Caniell has fixed it with an insertion from the 1941 broadcast. Leinsdorf and Szell take almost identical tempos, so again the switch is inaudible.
> 
> The principal differences between 1941 and 1942 are the conducting of Leinsdorf vs. that of Szell, and the Elisabeths of Flagstad and Traubel. While I enjoy both conductors, I must say that I find Szell's attention to detail here a significant point in his favor. Balances are carefully judged, attacks are precise, tempo relationships are carefully judged, but at the same time the performance feels spontaneous and alive. Between Traubel and Flagstad the difference is less dramatic than you might have thought. Traubel certainly lacked the rich column of sound that Flagstad was capable of producing, but both have beautiful and ringing voices. Although Flagstad was a bit stolid as an actress, she actually inflects the music with more specificity and variety of color than Traubel, who seems to be engaging in a vocal concert. On the other hand, Elisabeth is hardly a character of the complexity of Isolde or a Sieglinde, and the vocal acting will not be a major issue for most.
> 
> A genuine superiority of the 1942 performance is found in the Landgraf: Emanuel List is a more than competent singer, but Alexander Kipnis in this 1942 version is much more than that. His richly expressive voice was a uniquely beautiful instrument, and he was an artist of unusual imagination as well. The preservation of his Landgraf is one of the joys of this release. Thorborg was, as you can see from the chart above, a regular Venus at the Met over many years. She shows a sumptuous voice, very occasionally unsteady here, and can use its rich tone to portray the seductress but can also harden the sound to convey her anger. As beautifully vocalized as Tibbett's Wolfram is in 1936, there is no denying the greater comfort with the idiom and identification with the character displayed by Janssen here.
> 
> Caniell also includes as a bonus excerpts from a 1948 Hollywood Bowl concert with Traubel and Melchior, including the complete Bridal Chamber Scene from Lohengrin. It is a wonderful extra, particularly because the recording, as heard here, is brilliantly clear. The ring of both voices, and fullness of the orchestra, is a pleasure to the ear. As is the normal practice of Immortal Performances, substantial portions of Milton Cross's radio announcements are included, but are tracked separately so skipping them is easy if you wish. As is also the normal practice for this label, the accompanying booklet is a major asset. Essays and historic photos are a vital part of what Immortal Performances produces.


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> Just got this one in the mail, which looks pretty interesting:
> 
> View attachment 75984
> 
> 
> From the Fanfare review:


I see those "immortal performance" series, then I see the price, then I have a heart attack........


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## gardibolt

Yeah, one needs to be selective.


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## Itullian

You have the Reiner DA?

I like because each act has its own disc


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## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> Just got this one in the mail, which looks pretty interesting:
> View attachment 75984


Have you ordered from their website in Canada, how long does it take to get something?

Only one way to find out how they stack up, got to try one.........main competition for 1930-40s Wagner is Naxos / Ward Marston releases, a few Walhall and Myto also

They seem to he heavily promoted by Fanfare magazine


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## DarkAngel

*
Anyone have this, comments.............*

If Barbie doesn't have this he has at least thought about buying it 

According to website this is latest improved remaster boxset, previously they were sold as Guild label releases.


----------



## Barbebleu

GG


DarkAngel said:


> *
> Anyone have this, comments.............*
> 
> If Barbie doesn't have this he has at least thought about buying it
> 
> According to website this is latest improved remaster boxset, previously they were sold as Guild label releases.


Yes DA, as soon as the lottery comes up I'll be in there!!:lol:


----------



## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> GG
> 
> Yes DA, as soon as the lottery comes up I'll be in there!!:lol:


Not cheap, but neither was the 55 Keilberth Ring on Testament, Gardibolt maybe holding out on us since he just got that Tannhauser on Immortal Performance label


----------



## gardibolt

Yes, the lovely mrs. Gardibolt got that for my birthday last year. It's quite a spectacular achievement though the sound quality is a little dodgy in spots. The Siegfried is pretty much the same as the one in the Met box. Other than changes in crackle and surface noise, the joins are downright invisible. And the performances are all incomparable.


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## Barbebleu

Yay


DarkAngel said:


> *
> Anyone have this, comments.............*
> 
> If Barbie doesn't have this he has at least thought about buying it
> 
> According to website this is latest improved remaster boxset, previously they were sold as Guild label releases.


Actually, given the exchange rate for the Canadian dollar, it would work out at about £75, which is not unreasonable. I have a bad feeling that the customs and excise duty would probably double the cost. Wish it was on Amazon uk.


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> Nice DA! Thanks for the tip; ordered the 2nd cycle 1955 Walküre from MDT for 40 pounds less than Amazon's insane price.
> 
> Also got a couple other items in their Testament sale: 1970 live Karajan Zarathustra and Oistrakh playing Prokofiev and Khatchaturian violin sonatas. I considered the *1951 Knappertsbusch Gotterdammerung *on MDT, but then decided to price check and found a used copy for $24 so that's on its way to me too.


Have you heard the 51 Knap yet, it will amaze you...........

Admiral & Peer Gynt - how goes the Wagner buying spree, any winner to report?


----------



## DarkAngel

For $32 used at Amazon I placed order for the Naxos MET Ring boxset, two of the 4 operas are the same performance as found in Sony MET boxset but most say sound for those is better with Naxos (Ward Marston), contents:

37 Rheingold - Bodanzsky
41 Walkure - Leinsdorf
37 Siegfried - Bodanzky
36 Gotterdammerung - Bodanzky

Love the price............


----------



## Steatopygous

DarkAngel said:


> *
> Anyone have this, comments.............*
> 
> If Barbie doesn't have this he has at least thought about buying it
> 
> According to website this is latest improved remaster boxset, previously they were sold as Guild label releases.


Obviously the top box is the entire Ring. The second picture is just the last opera. Is it also available as the complete Ring?


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## DarkAngel

Steatopygous said:


> Obviously the top box is the entire Ring. The second picture is just the last opera. Is it also available as the complete Ring?


I have seen all the old Guild label Ring operas sold individually at Amazon but not in one boxset, the new Immortal Performance own boxset remastered 2012-13 with different vocal insertions also....all said to improve the final result.

BTW.....
I have sent an email order to Immortal Performance to see what shipping cost is for Ring Boxset total cost, the $165 Canadian dollars for boxset is about $126 USA dollars, need to see what they want for airmail shipping to USA


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## gardibolt

Haven't heard the 51 Knap yet; it just arrived the other day but it's near the top of the list. The 1955 second cycle is moving to the back burner for a while to see if the other two operas surface.

If you read the reviews at the Immortal Performances website, it seems the improvements of the current version of the Dream Ring over the Guild version are pretty substantial. I've not heard the Guild set myself, though, so I can't verify that.


----------



## Barbebleu

howlingfantods said:


> Thanks for the clip, that's beautiful. I coincidentally just ordered that 1997 live recording a couple of days ago, so I'm on pins and needles waiting for that delivery, even more so now.


I ordered this Parsifal from Operapassion as part of a CD rom with performances of all Wagners operas from Die Feen onwards. The only problem with the CD is the heavy compression on the MP3 files, otherwise for £10 it was a snip. The Ring cycle is Furtwanglers RAI one.


----------



## Itullian

So what did the postman bring today DA? :tiphat:


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> So what did the postman bring today DA? :tiphat:


He does quite often leave a package for me, I must admit...........










*61 Bayreuth Knap Parsifal......$13 Amazon USA*

I love this performance, excellent sound with almost same cast as the famous 62 Knap, only Titurel is different (father of Amfortus). Irene Dalis and Jess Thomas may actually be better overall in act 2 of the 61, just spellbinding singing with these two all the drama and excitement you could possibly want.......I have new respect for Irene Dalis she is a great Kundry here (much better Kundry than Vickers got in 64 Knap) a real revelation tremendous passion but never out of control., I wish she had more recordings!

Balance of the cast is magnificent, Jess Thomas in 1960-62 has the most beautiful wagner tenor voice I have heard, the soft voice is so sweet and elegantly nuanced, Hans Hotter sets the standard for Gurnemanz that all others must strive for, George London as Amfortas is unforgettable, Neidlinger as Klingsor another singer who almost defines the role.....

Knap really understands the heart and soul of this opera like no other, I was listening to the famous Karajan DG recording and although the modern sound is great at the final grail ceremony he just does not capture the soul of the music build up, the "long line" is not present, the layers of choral groups tonally building an upward path to the heavens and slow steady orchestral build to climax and subsequent gentle release to float among the stars in our universal consciousness (maybe just my imagination)


----------



## howlingfantods

Barbebleu said:


> I ordered this Parsifal from Operapassion as part of a CD rom with performances of all Wagners operas from Die Feen onwards. The only problem with the CD is the heavy compression on the MP3 files, otherwise for £10 it was a snip. The Ring cycle is Furtwanglers RAI one.


The Ring is actually a 70's Sawallisch with the RAI, probably not of too much interest to most.

The sound on most of the recordings on the cdrom are too poor to really recommend the disc, unfortunately--I gather all of these are bootlegs with folks in the audience with private tape players.

The Rattle Parsifal performance does sound special but the singers are pretty recessed and difficult to hear, and there's substantial tape hiss and noise. Still a very enjoyable listen, though, and I don't regret the ten bucks just for this recording alone. I'd dearly love a better quality recording of this performance.

The disc also contains other interesting tidbits--a recording of Goodall Meistersinger, a Lohengrin with Victoria DLA, Christa Ludwig, and Fritz Uhl with von Matacic in the pit--but all are in bootleg-quality sound.


----------



## Barbebleu

Barbebleu said:


> I ordered this Parsifal from Operapassion as part of a CD rom with performances of all Wagners operas from Die Feen onwards. The only problem with the CD is the heavy compression on the MP3 files, otherwise for £10 it was a snip. The Ring cycle is Furtwanglers RAI one.


Just to correct my own idiocy, the Ring is from Rome in the seventies conducted by Sawallisch.


----------



## Barbebleu

howlingfantods said:


> The Ring is actually a 70's Sawallisch with the RAI, probably not of too much interest to most.
> 
> The sound on most of the recordings on the cdrom are too poor to really recommend the disc, unfortunately--I gather all of these are bootlegs with folks in the audience with private tape players.
> 
> The Rattle Parsifal performance does sound special but the singers are pretty recessed and difficult to hear, and there's substantial tape hiss and noise. Still a very enjoyable listen, though, and I don't regret the ten bucks just for this recording alone. I'd dearly love a better quality recording of this performance.
> 
> The disc also contains other interesting tidbits--a recording of Goodall Meistersinger, a Lohengrin with Victoria DLA, Christa Ludwig, and Fritz Uhl with von Matacic in the pit--but all are in bootleg-quality sound.


You are spot on. I didn't notice your reply before i posted my correction.


----------



## Barbebleu

I know this is the wrong thread but in case anyone is interested YT has Walkure, Siegfried and Gotterdammerung from Vienna this year conducted by Rattle, also Tristan from this tear's Bayreuth festival. And also the Prague 1968 Ring conducted by Hans Swarowsky.


----------



## gardibolt

Listened to the first act of the 1951 Knapper Götterdämmerung last night; it is a fine performance but they really don't have the miking in Bayreuth quite down yet. Parts are hard to hear and the volume is all over the place. It's interesting to hear the impending generational change though, as the 1950s generation is just starting to work its way into the casts and the 1940s group is on their way out. Varnay I think is even better here than in the later Rings, but the variability of the sound makes it a somewhat difficult listen. At least with the 1940s material it's not high quality but it's pretty consistent so I eventually get used to it.

Speaking of which, I spot-checked the Immortal Performances 1942 Tannhäuser and it's got the typical thin AM radio sound, a little on the tinny side. Don't look for bass on this recording, because it just isn't there. But Melchior and Traubel are fricking amazing. Such voices!! Szell really moves things along briskly, without feeling rushed. I know this is a pricey set but if you want great voices in their prime, you should consider it. Aside from the expected click removal and evening out of the equalization, Traubel's bad note is corrected and a missing chunk from Act I is supplied I think from the 1941 Leinsdorf version. I couldn't tell where the seams were at all so I'm going to call that well done. The 1948 Hollywood Bowl concert of bits of Act III of Lohengrin under Ormandy's baton sounds quite good for a 1940s live performance. That's Melchior and Traubel again; Melchior's voice is showing some wear here but Traubel is still first-rate. That chunk of nearly half an hour fits onto disc 3, so you have a sense of just how fast Szell takes Tannhäuser (of course there are also significant Met cuts left over from the Bodanzky era, which is too bad). The set has a substantial booklet but no libretto. Given how easy it is to get libretti and full scores from the Internet for free I'm not really considering that much of a detriment but I know it's important to some folks.


----------



## gardibolt

DarkAngel said:


> Have you ordered from their website in Canada, how long does it take to get something?


When you place an order with them, they will send you a Paypal invoice. That came next day in my case. After I paid, it took five days to get a shipping notice. It shipped on September 28th from Canada and I received it in the mail October 3 in Wisconsin. So not that long at all. I had zero issue with customs; they did declare the correct value on the package but it went through no problem.


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> Listened to the first act of the *1951 Knapper Götterdämmerung l*ast night; it is a fine performance but they really don't have the miking in Bayreuth quite down yet. Parts are hard to hear and the *volume is all over the place.* It's interesting to hear the impending generational change though, as the 1950s generation is just starting to work its way into the casts and the 1940s group is on their way out. Varnay I think is even better here than in the later Rings, but the variability of the sound makes it a somewhat difficult listen. At least with the 1940s material it's not high quality but it's pretty consistent so I eventually get used to it.


I will have to listen again tonight, I don't recall being bothered by sound level variables......


----------



## gardibolt

In particular, in the 1951 one of the Norns is pretty much inaudible. I know I had to crank up parts of it to hear anything, and then it would suddenly be deafening. The third act is much better. 

I'm now starting on the 1948 Masolt Rheingold and am so far very favorably impressed by both the sound quality for 1948 (exceptionally good range and sound quality aside from some modest hiss...if only Toscanini's recordings circa 1948 sounded this good) and the performances; Julius Pölzer's Loge is a hoot, and the Rhinemaidens are not just some damp nymphs twittering about uselessly, but they have some really solid and lusty character. I can see them tempting and taunting Alberich straight into madness, and that's fairly unusual. I look forward to seeing how they handle Siegfried at the end. I think Adolf Vogel's Alberich is a quite valid interpretation that can stand comfortably next to Neidlinger. I'm not yet sure about the Wotan of Ferdinand Frantz...going to have to see how this goes with the later parts of the Ring. The other gods are pretty nondescript thus far.


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## Itullian

Pretty quiet in here.


----------



## DarkAngel

I have run the table now on 1950s Bayreuth Rings, but still exploring the "ancient ones" with these two Pristine XR on order:

The bottom photo is 7CD set of extended segments (currently 10% off sale) taken from studio recordings 1926-32

















*Oh yeah one more thing....... *
I got a box in the mail yesterday from Immortal Performance with Dream Ring


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## gardibolt

Lucky lucky Dark Angel. The sound quality is iffy on these oldies, but oh what voices they had!


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> I have run the table now on 1950s Bayreuth Rings, but still exploring the "ancient ones" with these two Pristine XR on order:
> 
> The bottom photo is 7CD set of extended segments (currently 10% off sale) taken from studio recordings from 1926-32 recordings
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh yeah I got a box yesterday from Immortal Performance, Dream Ring........


Man, I'll never catch up with you guys.
I'm Little Joe and you're Hoss and Adam.:lol:


----------



## Barbebleu

Listening to this Lohengrin from Berlin 1942 with Franz Volker and Maria Muller conducted by Robert Heger. Pretty good sound for the time and so far so good halfway through Act 1.


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> I have run the table now on 1950s Bayreuth Rings, but still exploring the "ancient ones" with these two Pristine XR on order:
> 
> The bottom photo is 7CD set of extended segments (currently 10% off sale) taken from studio recordings from 1926-32 recordings
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh yeah I got a box yesterday from Immortal Performance, Dream Ring........


Enjoy DA. Until someone imports it to the U.K. it will remain for me, at the moment, a very dreamlike Dream Ring:lol:


----------



## Barbebleu

Just bought the Swarowsky Lohengrin as a download on Amazon UK at the preposterously cheap price of £5.49!!


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> For $32 used at Amazon I placed order for the Naxos MET Ring boxset, two of the 4 operas are the same performance as found in Sony MET boxset but most say sound for those is better with Naxos (Ward Marston), contents:
> 
> 37 Rheingold - Bodanzsky
> 41 Walkure - Leinsdorf
> 37 Siegfried - Bodanzky
> 36 Gotterdammerung - Bodanzky
> 
> Love the price............


I'd like to hear what you think of that Met cycle DA? :tiphat:


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> I'd like to hear what you think of that Met cycle DA? :tiphat:












I already have the 41 Walkure from that Naxos MET boxset and it was much better sound than I expected, so instead of buying more Naxos individually with $4 Amazon shipping each I just got the boxset used to save time and money 

I am interested to hear the others, I was not very impressed with sound of 37 Rheingold from the expensive Immortal Performance Dream Ring boxset so we will see how cheaper Naxos does with same performance

I think I read somewhere that this Walkure is MET wagner debut for Varnay.......I love Astrid!


----------



## Itullian

^^You're a smart shopper DA. 
I'm with you, I love Astrid too.


----------



## howlingfantods

Barbebleu said:


> View attachment 76204
> 
> Listening to this Lohengrin from Berlin 1942 with Franz Volker and Maria Muller conducted by Robert Heger. Pretty good sound for the time and so far so good halfway through Act 1.


I guess we're on similar wavelengths--I've been on sort of a Max Lorenz kick and downloaded the Heger Tristan from 1943.









Amazing. I think I prefer Lorenz's passion and slightly erratic musicianship over the steadier but often a little unmoving Melchior. Buchner sounds a bit past her prime but sings beautifully, again more movingly if maybe a little less beautifully than Flagstad in the Beecham.

Not sure if there are any cuts--I've listened once through so far without libretto in hand. I didn't notice anything as obvious as the major act 3 cuts in the Beecham or Reiner sets with Mechior and Flagstad. Gripping, beautiful, dramatic. I like it a lot so far.

Also picked up the Elmendorff 1928 T&I too, but have only listened to bits and pieces so far:


----------



## gardibolt

Heads up, Opera Depot has another sale; this time half off everything through Monday. Snagged the 1961 Kempe Bayreuth Ring to add to my burgeoning accumulation, plus Mödl doing Fidelio.


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> Heads up, Opera Depot has another sale; this time half off everything through Monday. Snagged the 1961 Kempe Bayreuth Ring to add to my burgeoning accumulation, plus Mödl doing Fidelio.


I am on it, got the email........ various Verdi & Wagner for me, includes these two compilations


----------



## DarkAngel

DarkAngel said:


> I already have the 41 Walkure from that Naxos MET boxset and it was much better sound than I expected, so instead of buying more Naxos individually with $4 Amazon shipping each I just got the boxset used to save time and money
> 
> I am interested to hear the others, I was not very impressed with sound of 37 Rheingold from the expensive Immortal Performance Dream Ring boxset so we will see how cheaper Naxos does with same performance
> *
> I think I read somewhere that this Walkure is MET wagner debut for Varnay*.......I love Astrid!



















Varnay backstage after her 1941 MET debut Walkure performance as Sieglinde


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## Itullian

^Love that top picture


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> ^Love that top picture












Zoom out, notice the Flagstad framed picture........remember that Flagstad was supposed to re-open Bayreuth in 1951, but was already engaged and recommended her friend Astrid for Brunnhilde part


----------



## Itullian

^Awesome DA. Very touching to see that picture next to her.


----------



## Barbebleu

gardibolt said:


> Heads up, Opera Depot has another sale; this time half off everything through Monday. Snagged the 1961 Kempe Bayreuth Ring to add to my burgeoning accumulation, plus Mödl doing Fidelio.


Yes, I had an email from them telling me about it. Sawallisch Ring from Rome 1968 and Tristan from Bayreuth 1977 now acquired. That completes my Ring collection from OperaDepot unless they add a new one.


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## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> Yes, I had an email from them telling me about it. Sawallisch Ring from Rome 1968 and Tristan from Bayreuth 1977 now acquired. That completes my Ring collection from OperaDepot unless they add a new one.


I want to get one of the 1970s Bayreuth Rings with Horst Stein conductor, they have three complete 71, 73, 75 do you have any preference among those? I am probably going with 71 unless I hear differently

Good to hear some new voices.......


----------



## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> Zoom out, notice the Flagstad framed picture........remember that Flagstad was supposed to re-open Bayreuth in 1951, but was already engaged and recommended her friend Astrid for Brunnhilde part


In 1919 Flagstad sang with the newly created Opera Comique in Oslo, which was founded and directed by Alexander Varnay, Astrid's father. Astrid was 23 years younger than Flagstad, hard to imagine since Flagstad was still singing gloriously and making recordings when Varnay was in her prime in the '50s.


----------



## gardibolt

DA, the 1973 Stein Ring was a free download last month. It's pretty good. Stein isn't as hell-for-leather on his tempos as the 1950s conductors, so it feels a little slow going after listening to them intensely. Low bass is pretty much missing and it's treble-heavy----I'm guessing they are recorded off an AM radio broadcast rather than being taken from Bayreuth's tapes like the Walhalls were as I understand it. But it's certainly listenable. It is refreshing to hear different voices and their takes---one reason why I'm really enjoying the 1948/9 Moralt Ring.


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> DA, the 1973 Stein Ring was a free download last month. It's pretty good. Stein isn't as hell-for-leather on his tempos as the 1950s conductors, so it feels a little slow going after listening to them intensely. Low bass is pretty much missing and it's treble-heavy----I'm guessing they are recorded off an AM radio broadcast rather than being taken from Bayreuth's tapes like the Walhalls were as I understand it. But it's certainly listenable. It is refreshing to hear different voices and their takes---one reason why I'm really enjoying the 1948/9 Moralt Ring.


From the short samples at Operadepot the 73 Stein seemed to be a lower quality sound, 71 seemed the best plus I want to hear the Brunnhilde of *Catarina Ligendza*


----------



## Itullian

^What a look!!.............


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> I want to get one of the 1970s Bayreuth Rings with Horst Stein conductor, they have three complete 71, 73, 75 do you have any preference among those? I am probably going with 71 unless I hear differently
> 
> Good to hear some new voices.......


'71 is a good choice DA. You will no doubt already have Gwynneth Jones from the centenary ring anyway, so no need to get the '75 and I quite like Ligendza.

The rest of the cast isn't half bad and I think I have made the point in previous posts that the seventies was probably the end of the halfway decent casts. They were starting to run out of singers in the eighties and things haven't, in my opinion, improved.


----------



## Woodduck

Barbebleu said:


> The rest of the cast isn't half bad and I think I have made the point in previous posts that the seventies was probably the end of the halfway decent casts. They were starting to run out of singers in the eighties and things haven't, in my opinion, improved.


:lol: The halfway decent casts, in terms of voices, may have ended in the 70s, when finding a heldentenor to cast opposite Birgit Nilsson became essentially impossible. The really decent casts ended in the 60s; a lot of the fine old Wagnerians can still be heard on the Solti/Decca _Ring_, and there are a few classic recordings out of Bayreuth.

The truly great casts pretty much ended during the WWII years, when some of the amazing voices from the Wagnerian golden age, the 30s and earlier, were still around. Before that, the recorded evidence suggests there were plenty of superb dramatic voices, though technology prevents us from hearing their true impact. I've been listening lately to Johanna Gadski:






A shame we can only guess at the full impact of the voice's timbre and power, but what vocal poise, purity, and legato! Wagner sung bel canto, the way he wanted it.


----------



## Barbebleu

Woodduck said:


> :lol: The halfway decent casts, in terms of voices, may have ended in the 70s, when finding a heldentenor to cast opposite Birgit Nilsson became essentially impossible. The really decent casts ended in the 60s; a lot of the fine old Wagnerians can still be heard on the Solti/Decca _Ring_, and there are a few classic recordings out of Bayreuth.
> 
> The truly great casts pretty much ended during the WWII years, when some of the amazing voices from the Wagnerian golden age, the 30s and earlier, were still around. Before that, the recorded evidence suggests there were plenty of superb dramatic voices, though technology prevents us from hearing their true impact. I've been listening lately to Johanna Gadski:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A shame we can only guess at the full impact of the voice's timbre and power, but what vocal poise, purity, and legato! Wagner sung bel canto, the way he wanted it.


No argument from this old reactionary! p.s. The Gadski is rather good.


----------



## DarkAngel

No mail today in USA, so a halt in the new opera delivery train........

*Operadepot has extended for another day the 50% off sale*, but I have already placed 3 orders, 2 complete Rings and several other Wagner and Verdi operas will soon be on their way to my mailbox

One of my purchases is this 64 Lohengrin with Jess Thomas (my favorite for this part) and a cast of otherwise lesser known singers, but to sing at Bayreuth requires a high entry point so no pretenders here, sound sample very good quality










*
Also ordered the 71 Stein Ring as discussed above......*










Love the "subtle" graphics for Stein Ring..........


----------



## Itullian

^I have Jean Cox on the Philips Bayreuth Meister and liked him fine.

And Ligendza on the DG Jochum Meister.


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> No mail today in USA, so a halt in the new opera delivery train........
> 
> *Operadepot has extended for another day the 50% off sale*, but I have already placed 3 orders, 2 complete Rings and several other Wagner and Verdi operas will soon be on their way to my mailbox
> 
> One of my purchases is this 64 Lohengrin with Jess Thomas (my favorite for this part) and a cast of otherwise lesser known singers, but to sing at Bayreuth requires a high entry point, sound sample very good quality
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> Also ordered the 71 Stein Ring as discussed above......*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Love the "subtle" graphics for Stein Ring..........


One ring to rule them all and, in the darkness, bind them! With thanks to Prof. Tolkien.

Good Lohengrin too.


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> DA, the 1973 Stein Ring was a free download last month. It's pretty good. Stein isn't as hell-for-leather on his tempos as the 1950s conductors, so it feels a little slow going after listening to them intensely. Low bass is pretty much missing and it's treble-heavy----I'm guessing they are recorded off an AM radio broadcast rather than being taken from Bayreuth's tapes like the Walhalls were as I understand it. But it's certainly listenable. *It is refreshing to hear different voices and their takes---one reason why I'm really enjoying the 1948/9 Moralt Ring*.


We are waiting to hear about 49 Moralt Gotterdammerung with Grob-Prandl as Brunnhilde, also the nice bonus......think it will meet your approval (Itullian must buy this back he sold too soon, $7 at Amazon!)


----------



## DarkAngel

*43 Leinsdorf - MET Tristan *

This is a really great wartime performance with Helen Traubel as Isolde (instead of Flagstad) and the sound quality is a noticeable step up from both the 36 Reiner and 37 Beecham, remaining cast is usual Met wagner singers of highest quality at this time. Traubel is even a bit more dramatic in her vocal delivery with a large powerful richly nuanced voice, makes a great historical companion to 36 Reiner having two great Isolde's, price at Amazon USA $11

Itullian will be pleased each act has its own CD.........


----------



## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> *43 Leinsdorf - MET Tristan *
> 
> This is a really great wartime performance with Helen Traubel as Isolde (instead of Flagstad) and the sound quality is a noticeable step up from both the 36 Reiner and 37 Beecham, remaining cast is usual Met wagner singers of highest quality at this time. Traubel is even a bit more dramatic in her vocal delivery with a large powerful richly nuanced voice, makes a great historical companion to 36 Reiner having two great Isolde's, price at Amazon USA $11
> 
> Itullian will be pleased each act has its own CD.........


New York's Wagner lovers were spoiled. In Lauritz Melchior's long career at the Met he partnered four of the most vocally resplendent Wagnerian sopranos of the century: Frida Leider, Kirsten Flagstad, Marjorie Lawrence, and Helen Traubel. His record of sheer endurance is impossible to comprehend: between 1918 (the year of his debut as a tenor, after having sung baritone roles for several years) and 1950, he sang the role of Tristan 223 times, Siegmund 181 times, Tannhauser 144 times, Siegfried in _Siegfried_ 121 times, Siegfried in _Gotterdammerung_ 107 times, Lohengrin 106 times, and Parsifal 80 times, in addition to the non-Wagnerian roles of Otello, Canio, and Samson. At the age of 60 (he was born in 1890) he left for Hollywood and appeared in movies, always singing. In 1963 he sang the "Star-Spangled Banner" for the World Series, which I remember hearing on radio. By that time Birgit Nilsson was the new star Wagnerian soprano, and unfortunately the Met had no heldentenor to pair her with, which she always regretted.

Here's a delightful little feature from YouTube, with some amusing remarks by Astrid Varnay and a staggering snippet from Siegfried's forging song:


----------



## DarkAngel

Woodduck said:


> New York's Wagner lovers were spoiled. In Lauritz Melchior's long career at the Met he partnered four of the most vocally resplendent Wagnerian sopranos of the century: Frida Leider, Kirsten Flagstad, Marjorie Lawrence, and Helen Traubel. His record of sheer endurance is impossible to comprehend: between 1918 (the year of his debut as a tenor, after having sung baritone roles for several years) and 1950, he sang the role of Tristan 223 times, Siegmund 181 times, Tannhauser 144 times, Siegfried in _Siegfried_ 121 times, Siegfried in _Gotterdammerung_ 107 times, Lohengrin 106 times, and Parsifal 80 times, in addition to the non-Wagnerian roles of Otello, Canio, and Samson. At the age of 60 (he was born in 1890) he left for Hollywood and appeared in movies, always singing. In 1963 he sang the "Star-Spangled Banner" for the World Series, which I remember hearing on radio. By that time Birgit Nilsson was the new star Wagnerian soprano, and unfortunately the Met had no heldentenor to pair her with, which she always regretted.
> 
> Here's a delightful little feature from YouTube, with some amusing remarks by Astrid Varnay and a staggering snippet from Siegfried's forging song:


What singers today could ever survive a marathon career like that singing such heavy demanding roles! Also we find out why he sang at MET and ROH but no Bayreuth recordings in 1930s (Hitler encounter etc)

I love that journal he kept with all his performances noted and reminders how to sing for each conductor, those were the days. Astrid starting her career surely learned much from Lauritz, her 41 MET debut Walkure was with Melchior as Wotan..........


----------



## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> What singers today could ever survive a marathon career like that singing such heavy demanding roles! Also we find out why he sang at MET and ROH but no Bayreuth recordings in 1930s (Hitler encounter etc)
> 
> I love that journal he kept with all his performances noted and reminders how to sing for each conductor, those were the days. Astrid starting her career surely learned much from Lauritz, her 41 MET debut Walkure was with Melchior as Wotan..........


We know you meant Melchior as Siegmund. 

One Wagner role LM avoided after a few tries was Walther in _Meistersinger_. He felt that there weren't enough low notes, that it kept him too high too much of the time. But he loved to sing the Prize Song, and he participated in that magnificent, never-equalled recording of the quintet with Elisabeth Schumann and Friedrich Schorr:






Schumann avoided singing _Meistersinger_ in the theater too, feeling that the role of Eva was too heavy for her voice. So we are extremely lucky that that the the two of them came into the recording studio to give us this classic. Schorr, of course, was the most celebrated of all interpreters of Sachs.

But here is what must be the most unique recording of the Prize Song ever:


----------



## Barbebleu

Woodduck said:


> New York's Wagner lovers were spoiled. In Lauritz Melchior's long career at the Met he partnered four of the most vocally resplendent Wagnerian sopranos of the century: Frida Leider, Kirsten Flagstad, Marjorie Lawrence, and Helen Traubel. His record of sheer endurance is impossible to comprehend: between 1918 (the year of his debut as a tenor, after having sung baritone roles for several years) and 1950, he sang the role of Tristan 223 times, Siegmund 181 times, Tannhauser 144 times, Siegfried in _Siegfried_ 121 times, Siegfried in _Gotterdammerung_ 107 times, Lohengrin 106 times, and Parsifal 80 times, in addition to the non-Wagnerian roles of Otello, Canio, and Samson. At the age of 60 (he was born in 1890) he left for Hollywood and appeared in movies, always singing. In 1963 he sang the "Star-Spangled Banner" for the World Series, which I remember hearing on radio. By that time Birgit Nilsson was the new star Wagnerian soprano, and unfortunately the Met had no heldentenor to pair her with, which she always regretted.
> 
> Here's a delightful little feature from YouTube, with some amusing remarks by Astrid Varnay and a staggering snippet from Siegfried's forging song:


Can you possibly imagine any modern heldentenor, if such a creature even existed today, singing Tristan 223 times? The mind boggles. Most voices now sound shredded after singing it once. Thank goodness for the medium of recorded music and we can at least revel in the legacy that wonderful singers like Melchior and Varnay have left us.


----------



## Barbebleu

Woodduck said:


> New York's Wagner lovers were spoiled. In Lauritz Melchior's long career at the Met he partnered four of the most vocally resplendent Wagnerian sopranos of the century: Frida Leider, Kirsten Flagstad, Marjorie Lawrence, and Helen Traubel. His record of sheer endurance is impossible to comprehend: between 1918 (the year of his debut as a tenor, after having sung baritone roles for several years) and 1950, he sang the role of Tristan 223 times, Siegmund 181 times, Tannhauser 144 times, Siegfried in _Siegfried_ 121 times, Siegfried in _Gotterdammerung_ 107 times, Lohengrin 106 times, and Parsifal 80 times, in addition to the non-Wagnerian roles of Otello, Canio, and Samson. At the age of 60 (he was born in 1890) he left for Hollywood and appeared in movies, always singing. In 1963 he sang the "Star-Spangled Banner" for the World Series, which I remember hearing on radio. By that time Birgit Nilsson was the new star Wagnerian soprano, and unfortunately the Met had no heldentenor to pair her with, which she always regretted.
> 
> Here's a delightful little feature from YouTube, with some amusing remarks by Astrid Varnay and a staggering snippet from Siegfried's forging song:


Did you notice in the hunting scene Melchior is smoking!!


----------



## Woodduck

Barbebleu said:


> Did you notice in the hunting scene Melchior is smoking!!


I didn't notice. I can't recall ever reading that he smoked, and have never seen a photo of him smoking, so it was probably just social and not an addiction. Caruso smoked heavily, and undoubtedly gave himself the throat hemorrhage that contributed to his own early death. Other singers have smoked in moderation; apparently Callas would light up in the company of others who were doing it. But Melchior was obviously a physical specimen of inhuman power. If any singer could get away with smoking, he could!


----------



## gardibolt

DarkAngel said:


> We are waiting to hear about 49 Moralt Gotterdammerung with Grob-Prandl as Brunnhilde, also the nice bonus......think it will meet your approval (Itullian must buy this back he sold too soon, $7 at Amazon!)


I have only gotten through Siegfried's Rhine Journey so far as of this morning, but Grob-Prandl does a good job with Love-sick Brünnhilde in the Prologue. We'll see if she does as well with Stubborn Brünnhilde, Perplexed Brünnhilde, Homicidal Brünnhilde, Scornful Brünnhilde and Screw-It-All-Burn-The-Whole-Thing-To-The-Ground Brünnhilde. I'm not sure which is toughest to pull off.


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> I have only gotten through Siegfried's Rhine Journey so far as of this morning, but Grob-Prandl does a good job with Love-sick Brünnhilde in the Prologue. We'll see if she does as well with Stubborn Brünnhilde, Perplexed Brünnhilde, Homicidal Brünnhilde, Scornful Brünnhilde and Screw-It-All-Burn-The-Whole-Thing-To-The-Ground Brünnhilde. I'm not sure which is toughest to pull off.


Yes Brunnie starts out in a good mood until her hero Seigfried decides to go check out the neighborhood, things go downhill from there.......

Waiting for motherlode shipment from recent operadepot sale.........


----------



## Barbebleu

Off on holiday today and will be away from my beloved internet for a while. I will however have time to listen to Rings from Bayreuth in '55, '61, '64, '71, Buenos Aires '62 and '67 and London '74 to '76. Then if I have time, Tristan Bayreuth '77. These are my planned ones but I reserve the right to change my mind!!


----------



## Barbebleu

Not quite out of the country yet. In London tonight and flying to Athens tomorrow. Cruising from Athens to Rhodes, then Turkey, then Cyprus then down through Suez Canal to Oman then Dubai. Internet might be a bit ropey from Cyprus to Dubai but who knows. I'll endeavour to keep in touch to at least update you on my Ring odyssey.


----------



## DarkAngel

I already have a wish list set at operadepot for next sale, one item I want is this 66 Lohengrin with Gedda (yes Gedda!) which was a one off but what a glorious swan knight, the lyric soft voice is so beautiful and the sound is very good, check it out


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> I already have a wish list set at operadepot for next sale, one item I want is this 66 Lohengrin with Gedda (yes Gedda!) which was a one off but what a glorious swan knight, the lyric soft voice is so beautiful and the sound is very good, check it out


O man, Gedda!.......................


----------



## gardibolt

gardibolt said:


> I have only gotten through Siegfried's Rhine Journey so far as of this morning, but Grob-Prandl does a good job with Love-sick Brünnhilde in the Prologue. We'll see if she does as well with Stubborn Brünnhilde, Perplexed Brünnhilde, Homicidal Brünnhilde, Scornful Brünnhilde and Screw-It-All-Burn-The-Whole-Thing-To-The-Ground Brünnhilde. I'm not sure which is toughest to pull off.


Didn't have a lot of time for listening over the weekend, so I'm only just into the start of Act III. Stubborn and Perplexed Brünnhilde were both fine---Grob-Prandl's Stubborn was lacking a bit in fieriness which made me apprehensive about Homicidal Brünnhilde. I think she was playing the old girl as Stupefied (rather like the Perplexed), rather than Enraged. While I guess that's a valid interpretation (and makes her mood swings a lot less violent), Homicidal is a lot more fun to listen to. Looking forward to the Immolation.

Sound quality has a few bad moments but by and large this 1949 Ring sound as if it were recorded ten years later. If this sound quality was always available in 1940s recordings, why wasn't it used more? Were the German engineers just that much better at their jobs than the schlubs elsewhere?


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> Didn't have a lot of time for listening over the weekend, so I'm only just into the start of Act III. Stubborn and Perplexed Brünnhilde were both fine---Grob-Prandl's Stubborn was lacking a bit in fieriness which made me apprehensive about Homicidal Brünnhilde. I think she was playing the old girl as Stupefied (rather like the Perplexed), rather than Enraged. While I guess that's a valid interpretation (and makes her mood swings a lot less violent), Homicidal is a lot more fun to listen to. Looking forward to the Immolation.
> 
> Sound quality has a few bad moments but by and large this 1949 Ring sound as if it were recorded ten years later.* If this sound quality was always available in 1940s recordings, why wasn't it used more? *Were the German engineers just that much better at their jobs than the schlubs elsewhere?


*Right after WWII sound recording/music playback made major advances,* mainly from using high quality magnetic tape for recording (borrowed from Germans after the war) which allowed editing and multi-track, and the high quality 33 rpm LP vinyl album format......previous 78 rpm shellacs could only hold 4-5 minutes per side of music!

Grob-Prandl is not an exciting brunnhilde singer like Varnay or Modl, she is more straight classic style. The sound on that 49 Moralt Gotterdammerung is better than your typical 1940s recording........

Still waiting for this to arrive, also not your typical 1940s sound quality thanks to Andrew Rose......


----------



## Marschallin Blair

DarkAngel said:


> *Right after WWII sound recording/music playback made major advances,* mainly from using high quality magnetic tape for recording (borrowed from Germans after the war) which allowed editing and multi-track, and the high quality 33 rpm LP vinyl album format......previous 78 rpm shellacs could only hold 4-5 minutes per side of music!
> 
> Grob-Prandl is not an exciting brunnhilde singer like Varnay or Modl, she is more straight classic style. The sound on that 49 Moralt Gotterdammerung is better than your typical 1940s recording........
> 
> Still waiting for this to arrive, also not your typical 1940s sound quality thanks to Andrew Rose......


My history's a little hazy, D.A., but weren't the major advances in recording technology from the 'British' during W.W. II when they were developing the advanced hydrophonic recording technology used to record the whereabouts of German U-boats?

Decca later used these W.W. II British advances in high fidelity to record orchestral music- and various American record companies paid for the rights to use these Decca advances in their own engineering endeavors.

- I swear on my _Gramophone_ magazine.


----------



## DarkAngel

Marschallin Blair said:


> My history's a little hazy, D.A., but weren't the major advances in recording technology from the 'British' during W.W. II when they were developing the advanced *hydrophonic recording technology* used to record the whereabouts of German U-boats?
> 
> Decca later used these W.W. II British advances in high fidelity to record orchestral music- and various American record companies paid for the rights to use these Decca advances in their own engineering endeavors.
> 
> - I swear on my _Gramophone_ magazine.


That sound like high tech stuff Marschallin, above my modest knowledge base

I am sure there were all kinds of parallel sound tech improvements going on during war and other places starting in late 1920s when microphone and amplifiers first came into use (electrical age of recording) but the bottleneck was always how to mass produce and record HQ sound cost effectively for sale to the public that was easy to use.......


----------



## Marschallin Blair

DarkAngel said:


> That sound like high tech stuff Marschallin, above my modest knowledge base
> 
> I am sure there were all kinds of parallel sound tech improvements going on during war and other places starting in late 1920s when microphone and amplifiers first came into use (electrical age of recording) but the bottleneck was always how to mass produce and record HQ sound cost effectively for sale to the public that was easy to use.......


I'm just rouging you, Honey. _;D_


----------



## DarkAngel

Marschallin Blair said:


> I'm just rouging you, Honey. _;D_




Ok blondie, no problem coming from the Callas queen 



> Waiting for motherlode shipment from recent operadepot sale.........


The motherlode has arrived, yyyeeesssssssssssssssssss


----------



## Marschallin Blair

*


DarkAngel said:



Ok blondie, no problem coming from the Callas queen 

Click to expand...

*"Lord-Goddess-Miss-Lady-Thing-Her-Eminence 'Callas Queen'"- yes, assuredly. _;D_


----------



## Steatopygous

Marschallin Blair said:


> My history's a little hazy, D.A., but weren't the major advances in recording technology from the 'British' during W.W. II when they were developing the advanced hydrophonic recording technology used to record the whereabouts of German U-boats?
> 
> Decca later used these W.W. II British advances in high fidelity to record orchestral music- and various American record companies paid for the rights to use these Decca advances in their own engineering endeavors.
> 
> - I swear on my _Gramophone_ magazine.


Absolutely right. 
See: http://www.theage.com.au/entertainm...he-sounds-of-the-century-20150407-1menr1.html


----------



## gardibolt

Well, in the 1949 Moralt Ring I've gotten to Siegfried being dead but didn't quite have enough time to finish the opera. Sigh. Two things I very much like about this rendition are the Gunther (Karl Kamann) and Gutrune (Hilde Konetzni); Kamann does a terrific job of portraying Gunther as someone easily duped and maneuvered by a scheming Hagen; he plays the part like a doughy lunk who thinks he's much smarter than he actually is--which is precisely how I imagine Gunther. And I just love Konetzni's gorgeous voice. It really shines in this recording. I need to go back and listen to her as Sieglinde again. I'm not particularly keen on Treptow's Siegfried; I've really been spoiled by Melchior and Windgassen so he seems like pretty weak sauce here (he's a good deal more Helden for Fürtwängler, to my thinking).

I did not know Moralt was Richard Strauss's nephew. Interesting. According to a website I ran across this is the first recorded uncut Ring, so I'm doubly glad I was talked into it since I like things of historic importance. 

And of course, Pristine has a 10% off sale for the next 10 days...red alert.


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Ok blondie, no problem coming from the Callas queen
> 
> The motherlode has arrived, yyyeeesssssssssssssssssss


So how's the motherlode ?


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> So how's the motherlode ?



















Huge stack of CDs to play.....starting with these two Bayreuth Parsifals - 65 Cluytens and 69 Stein

65 Cluytens has Jess Thomas still in his great voice era as Parsifal and Astrid Varnay as a wild exciting Kundry. This has to be one of Hotter's final Gurnemanz roles which he does so well, the live sound quality is not as good as I would expect with a rather high ambient noise floor, much to make this worth owning at such low prices but live sound should be better at Bayreuth in 65

69 Stein is better sound but still not great......not even close to 57/58 Knap Ring on Walhall.
I really notice any sound issues with choral sections in final grail ceremony, so much detail in there that is important to pull off the magnificent ending properly. I do like King as Parsifal and the Kundry of Dvorakova is interesting but a very mature older sounding voice, different but not really my favorite style, still some new voices to hear

Getting kinda burned out on these "live" wagner recordings from operadepot, many are just not quite good enough sound for me to listen to on a regular basis.....


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## Itullian

My monumental 1.99 Rheingold has arrived.


----------



## gardibolt

I may get the Clemens Krauss Parsifal from Pristine...they have a bunch of Krauss playing Richard Strauss as well that looks pretty interesting. Give us full details on your new Parsifals, DA. I'm currently watching the Jonas Kauffman Parsifal Blu-ray and it's getting me interested in exploring the historical Parsifals.


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> I may get the Clemens Krauss Parsifal from Pristine...they have a bunch of Krauss playing Richard Strauss as well that looks pretty interesting. Give us full details on your new Parsifals, DA. I'm currently watching the Jonas Kauffman Parsifal Blu-ray and it's getting me interested in exploring the historical Parsifals.


Definitely get the 53 Krauss Parsifal Pristine XR, and if you already have the 50 Furtwangler Ring I would also get the 53 Furtwangler Ring.......sounds so much better with Pristine XR, takes it to a new level of realism that is missing on EMI release......


----------



## gardibolt

I may do that; Ring + Parsifal makes 5 and that would take me up to 20% off with the sale on. That would make my 15th Ring, I think. Oy. Or the Strausses for 10 makes it 30% off, if I am truly sick.

I went through my order history and see I've purchased 50 items from Pristine over the last two years. So much good stuff, in better quality than ever imaginable.


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> I may do that; Ring + Parsifal makes 5 and that would take me up to 20% off with the sale on. That would make my 15th Ring, I think. Oy. Or the Strausses for 10 makes it 30% off, if I am truly sick.
> 
> I went through my order history and see I've purchased 50 items from Pristine over the last two years. *So much good stuff, in better quality than ever imaginable*.


Amen brother, we gotta keep spreading the word.......especially the historical Wagner stuff (50 Furtwangler Ring is a sonic miracle)


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## DarkAngel

I placed my new 5CD order with Pristine XR today to get the full 20% discount, the wait begins 
Garibolt is right behind me, I can tell........ha ha



> One of my purchases is this 64 Lohengrin with Jess Thomas (my favorite for this part) and a cast of otherwise lesser known singers, but to sing at Bayreuth requires a high entry point so no pretenders here, sound sample very good quality


This one is an absolute winner, live sound is very good and performance is superb, I have never seen it before except at operadepot......


----------



## Bill H.

Hey all, thought I might share this photo for your amusement. One of my other hobbies is collecting/restoring/using vintage fountain pens, and some of the ephemera I also pick up are adverts from old magazines for some of these wonderful writing instruments. During the 1940s Parker Pen had quite a few ads that featured their flagship Parker "51" pen as depicted in the hands of famous people of the day, including many classical musicians. Here's one from 1946 with the pen in the hand of someone all of us on this discussion thread know quite well. And my own daily user pen happens to be a Parker 51 very much like this one in the ad (though mine is actually a few years older, from 1942, and has a gold filled cap). Hopefully you can click on the image to get a larger, more easily viewed version.


----------



## Itullian

Bill H. said:


> Hey all, thought I might share this photo for your amusement. One of my other hobbies is collecting/restoring/using vintage fountain pens, and some of the ephemera I also pick up are adverts from old magazines for some of these wonderful writing instruments. During the 1940s Parker Pen had quite a few ads that featured their flagship Parker "51" pen as depicted in the hands of famous people of the day, including many classical musicians. Here's one from 1946 with the pen in the hand of someone all of us on this discussion thread know quite well. And my own daily user pen happens to be a Parker 51 very much like this one in the ad (though mine is actually a few years older, from 1942, and has a gold filled cap). Hopefully you can click on the image to get a larger, more easily viewed version.
> View attachment 76773


Wow Bill
Thanks so much for the great picture. :tiphat:


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## DarkAngel

*68 Sawallisch Ring - Rome *

This ring is very nice, I think Barbie also purchased this in recent sale. As you can see from cast list there are many new singers here that are not in the 66-67 Bohm Bayreuth Ring boxset, so it will give you some variety of voices. The sound is very good by operadepot standards, but not quite as good as Bohm.......we do get Theo Adam as wotan in both sets. I really like sawallisch for wagner in the 1960s, very dramatic with slightly fast tempos, definitely buy this when next 50% sale comes 



















Nadezda Kniplova (the "slavic sound" Brunnhilde)










Hildegard Hillebrecht


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## DarkAngel

*71 Stein Ring - Bayreuth

*This is even better Ring that seriously competes with 67 Bohm Bayreuth, the live sound is excellent and cast slightly stronger than 68 Rome. Horst Stein seems to have almost ideal orchestral sense, everything in support of his singers and stage action at hand, neither fast or slow just strikes great balance.

I really like Ligendza's brunnhilde performance, am glad I now have an entire Ring with her, amazing that I have just recently come to know her wagner work. She has all the dramatic capabilities needed and vocally strong for entire performances. Theo Adam was a steady and reliablely good wotan even if he will not surpass the great 1950s Hans Hotter performances, still much better than what we have today

This is one you definitely want to buy for next 50% sale, a real winner......



















Catarina Ligendza


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## DarkAngel

*
1926-32 Wagner Potted Ring - studio recordings for HMV, Mark Obert-Thorn mastering

*Pristine website is selling three 2CD volumes of HMV studio recordings assembled from 122 sides of 78 rpm shellac albums. Since these are studio recordings no crowd or stage noise and fresh singing for all tracks, not complete operas but extended segments sometimes with different singers and conductors in same opera.

Sound is amazing in general, the earliest tracks come from very dawn of "electrical" recording in mid 1920s meaning use of microphones and amplifiers, a huge step forward in recording technology. The sound is much better than Naxos or Immortal Performance recordings of live event operas from the same time period, I will report more as I work through these..........










Singer on cover art is Florence Austral, unknown to me previously but an Australian wagner soprano who along with Frida Leider were considered among the very best until the arrival of Flagstad in 1930s


----------



## The Conte

I've started to make my way through this set:









The Lohengrin is superb, here it is in its Myto incarnation:









This is my favourite historical Lohengrin.

N.


----------



## DarkAngel

^^^ Packaging is so nice for that MET boxset, no Parsifal included is breaking Duck's heart 

The price at Amazon USA of $37 is still a great deal...........


----------



## The Conte

DarkAngel said:


> ^^^ Packaging is so nice for that MET boxset, no Parsifal included is breaking Duck's heart
> 
> The price at Amazon USA of $37 is still a great deal...........


Yes, it's a shame about the lack of a Parsifal, but you do get a complete Melchior Ring (although with different conductors). Melchior is the reason I got the set in the first place and so far I prefer it to the 'Verdi' box (too much Milanov and not enough Price for my tastes. Also, there's no Trovatore...

N.

P.S. Are there other live Lohengrin's people here find essential?


----------



## DarkAngel

The Conte said:


> Yes, it's a shame about the lack of a Parsifal, but you do get a complete Melchior Ring (although with different conductors). Melchior is the reason I got the set in the first place and so far I prefer it to the 'Verdi' box (too much Milanov and not enough Price for my tastes. Also, there's no Trovatore...
> 
> P.S. *Are there other live Lohengrin's people here find essential*?










62 Sawallisch - Jess Thomas








59 Matacic - Sandor Konya

Two great ones both in very good live Bayreuth sound, the Orfeo will cost you some money


----------



## The Conte

DarkAngel said:


> 62 Sawallisch - Jess Thomas
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 59 Matacic - Sandor Konya
> 
> Two great ones both in very good live Bayreuth sound, the Orfeo will cost you some money


Are you a fifth columnist assiduously working to keep the CD market alive? Keep away from my wallet young man, it needs none of your wanton temptations!

N.


----------



## howlingfantods

DarkAngel said:


> 62 Sawallisch - Jess Thomas
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 59 Matacic - Sandor Konya
> 
> Two great ones both in very good live Bayreuth sound, the Orfeo will cost you some money


Agree on the Matacic, not as much on the Sawallisch. The Matacic would be on a short list for top recordings for me, with one of the top pairings for Lohengrin and Elsa in Konya and Grummer. The sound is a little rough compared to the other top contenders for me, the Kempe and the Kubelik, which is the main reason it trails these two others as my most often listened to Lohengrin.

Silja is unfortunately well represented in Bayreuth recordings of the early 60s, probably partly due to her affair with the much older Wieland Wagner. She's vivid and dramatic but has an unlovely voice that's somewhat passable as Senta but pretty poor for Elsa. Otherwise the Sawallisch is pretty good, but if you wanted Jess Thomas's excellent take on the title role, you're much better off with the Kempe.

Another amazing live recording if you can get past the crappy sound and the creep factor (Hitler was in attendance) is the legendary 1936 Act 3 excerpts from Bayreuth with Furtwangler, Volker, and Muller, likely the greatest prewar Elsa and Lohengrin. The disk below is filled out with Volker and Muller in studio recordings of additional excerpts with Tietjen, including the uncut In fernem Land.


----------



## Itullian

How about this one? Excellent.


----------



## The Conte

Not a historical recording, but my favourite Lohengrin is this one:









Then Kempe comes second. I am tempted by the thought of a Konya/Gruemmer/Gorr one as well...

N.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> How about this one? Excellent.


Excellent for sure, I just have not heard it enough times (only once) to say how high up we rank it........



> Silja is unfortunately well represented in Bayreuth recordings of the early 60s, probably partly due to her affair with the much older Wieland Wagner. She's vivid and dramatic but has an unlovely voice that's somewhat passable as Senta but pretty poor for Elsa. Otherwise the Sawallisch is pretty good, but if you wanted Jess Thomas's excellent take on the title role, you're much better off with the Kempe.


I have many Anja Silja performances, she has a noticeably lighter toned voice which on one hand sounds younger fresher but also can lack ultimate drama and emotional darkness sometimes needed.........then Kempe vs Sawallisch always a question between studio and live performance, studio has best sound and fresh voice every track plus any mistake can be redone, live gives a certain excitement and spontaneous reaction hard to duplicate, since Conte asked specifically about live version that narrowed the field 

Didn't know that little detail about Anja's offstage activities, hmmmmm


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## DarkAngel

The Conte said:


> Not a historical recording, but my favourite Lohengrin is this one:
> 
> View attachment 76900
> 
> 
> Then Kempe comes second. I am tempted by the thought of a Konya/Grummer/Gorr one as well...
> 
> N.


That is a popular one for sure, just a question of your preference of Lohengrin voice - I love Jess Thomas and Sandor Konya, plus back then they had really great Ortruds like Astrid Varnay, Christa Ludwig etc and many very good Elsa to fill out cast......so many great singers back then


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## Itullian

This one's good too. Good sound.
Jochum.


----------



## howlingfantods

Fans of Kna might be interested in this new release. First recording I'm aware of with him conducting Lohengrin. Unfortunately with the execrable Hans Hopf in the title role so this is a stay-away for me.


----------



## gardibolt

howlingfantods said:


> Fans of Kna might be interested in this new release. First recording I'm aware of with him conducting Lohengrin. Unfortunately with the execrable Hans Hopf in the title role so this is a stay-away for me.
> 
> View attachment 76901


This does look interesting.


----------



## The Conte

Does anybody know this recording?









How does it compare with Melchior's other Siegmunds? I'm interested in it because it seems the perfect cast (even better than Lawrence as Sieglinde and Flagstad as Bruenhilde which is the version I've just started listening to).

N.


----------



## DarkAngel

The Conte said:


> Does anybody know this recording?
> 
> View attachment 76938
> 
> 
> How does it compare with Melchior's other Siegmunds? I'm interested in it because it seems the perfect cast (even better than Lawrence as Sieglinde and Flagstad as Brunnhilde which is the version I've just started listening to).
> N.


I've seen that one not heard it, it is the MET on tour in Boston slightly different cast than 40 Walkure contained in "Wagner at MET" boxset.

I mentioned this Naxos 41 MET Walkure here a few weeks ago with a different cast and better sound than boxset 40 performance.....Amazon USA $10, nice companion to boxset

Wotan - Schorr
Brunnhilde - Traubel
Walsungs - Melchior & Varnay (her MET debut)


----------



## gardibolt

DarkAngel said:


> I placed my new 5CD order with Pristine XR today to get the full 20% discount, the wait begins
> Gardibolt is right behind me, I can tell........ha ha
> 
> ...
> This one is an absolute winner, live sound is very good and performance is superb, I have never seen it before except at operadepot...


That I am. Got the Krauss Parsifal and the Rome Furtwängler Ring from Pristine, as well as a bunch of Krauss playing the Strausses. And also got the Pristine version of the Furty studio Walküre, which unaccountably was missing from my collection.

I agree that the Opera Depot material can be a tough slog sometimes due to the variable sound quality. I was listening to the 1970 Karajan Götterdämmerung the other day, and it is in pretty good shape, unlike the 1967/68 entries in his Ring that they offer. The Christa Ludwig retrospective they were offering as their free download a few weeks ago has some tracks that are in horrifyingly bad shape, to the point of being unlistenable---others are just fine. I'll have to make note of that Lohengrin; the ones from Opera Depot that do sound good are quite a bargain.


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> *That I am. Got the Krauss Parsifal and the Rome Furtwängler Ring from Pristine, as well as a bunch of Krauss playing the Strausses. And also got the Pristine version of the Furty studio Walküre, which unaccountably was missing from my collection.
> *
> I agree that the Opera Depot material can be a tough slog sometimes due to the variable sound quality. I was listening to the 1970 Karajan Götterdämmerung the other day, and it is in pretty good shape, unlike the 1967/68 entries in his Ring that they offer. The Christa Ludwig retrospective they were offering as their free download a few weeks ago has some tracks that are in horrifyingly bad shape, to the point of being unlistenable---others are just fine. I'll have to make note of that Lohengrin; the ones from Opera Depot that do sound good are quite a bargain.


That is a great load of stuff from Pristine XR, some real winners there! That Furtwangler Scala Ring has never even remotely sounded that good, get to finally hear Flagstad in good sound and the deep dark voiced Wotan of Ferdinand Frantz

I had to email Andrew Rose since my last shipment was missing a CD set shown below, he is re-sending it with current order


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## gardibolt

Yes, that sounds incredibly good compared to the version in the Met box set. Rose really is doing spectacular work. You will want that.


----------



## gardibolt

Listened to the Sawallisch Tannhäuser in its Orfeo incarnation this morning (well, most of it). Really a terrific, energetic performance and excellent sound.








Victoria de los Angeles, Fischer-Dieskau, Windgassen, Bumbry and Greindl....what's not to like? Apparently this is a different (and superior) performance from the one that has long been in circulation.


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> Listened to the Sawallisch Tannhäuser in its Orfeo incarnation this morning (well, most of it). Really a terrific, energetic performance and excellent sound.
> View attachment 77005
> 
> 
> Victoria de los Angeles, Fischer-Dieskau, Windgassen, Bumbry and Greindl....what's not to like? Apparently this is a different (and superior) performance from the one that has long been in circulation.


Much cheaper Myto also sounds very good, with Orfeo you do get nice booklet.......Bumbry the first Afro-American singer at Bayreuth, the famous black venus


----------



## gardibolt

As I noted, those are two different performances. The Myto is opening night (July 23, 1961), which had some mishaps; the Orfeo is a later performance (August 3, 1961)-- from the Orfeo blurb the next performance of the opera at the festival.

EDIT: Corrected to reference next performance instead of next day.


----------



## The Conte

gardibolt said:


> As I noted, those are two different performances. The Myto is opening night, which had some mishaps; the Orfeo is the night after.


Has anybody heard them both and can confirm that the Orfeo one is the better performance?

N.


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> As I noted, those are two different performances. The Myto is opening night (July 23, 1961), *which had some mishaps;* the Orfeo is a later performance (August 3, 1961)-- from the Orfeo blurb the next performance of the opera at the festival.


Shouldn't have told me that, I was happy with the Myto........










Weiland Wagner greets the diva backstage after Tannhauser performance


----------



## Bill H.

Folks, I'd like to ask a favor of anyone here who's a fan of (or is just curious about) the 1953 Krauss Bayreuth Ring.
Over the past few years I've played with my own re-engineering of the audio files of that performance, using a fairly reasonable quality mp3 download I bought several years ago as the baseline. Each time I come back to it, I find that my preferences in how to work the audio have evolved a bit. The link below will take you to a Google Drive download of my most recent working of Das Rheingold, which I've done now that I have new audio editing software that's much more capable than what I had been using. The file is a 329 MB zip of two folders, each of which have the recording split into mp3 tracks (at 320 kbps) that can both be burned onto two CD-Rs if so desired, or just listened to as is. I'm looking for some feedback on how this particular version sounds to your ears, especially if you have other versions of this same performance. Of course feel free to keep or delete the download depending on whether you find it to your liking. I'll be happy to answer questions, and if there's interest, I'm willing to share the other operas in this Ring cycle as I rework them once again. Thanks much!
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByTWd_3f2RpSZl9mYTY2UjBPVzA


----------



## DarkAngel

*50% Off Halloween Sale at Operadepot Now

*


----------



## gardibolt

Oooo. OK, 1971 Stein Ring and the 1964 Jess Thomas Lohengrin per your recommendations should be a good start.


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> Oooo. OK, 1971 Stein Ring and the 1964 Jess Thomas Lohengrin per your recommendations should be a good start.


Love the 71 Stein Ring, I am also getting a couple more Lohengrins, Gedda and young Domingo........


----------



## gardibolt

Not opera, but it is Wagner. Pristine's new release includes the Jascha Horenstein rendition of Wagner's Faust Overture, coupled with the Liszt Faust Symphony, for all your Mephistophelean needs this Halloween. Their 10% sale is still on but ends today sometime.

https://www.pristineclassical.com/pasc453.html


----------



## howlingfantods

gardibolt said:


> Not opera, but it is Wagner. Pristine's new release includes the Jascha Horenstein rendition of Wagner's Faust Overture, coupled with the Liszt Faust Symphony, for all your Mephistophelean needs this Halloween. Their 10% sale is still on but ends today sometime.
> 
> https://www.pristineclassical.com/pasc453.html


argh, glanced and saw "Pristine" and "Horenstein" and had me hoping that they did their black magic on his Parsifal performance.

One of these days, I really hope someone makes that a little more listenable.


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## DarkAngel

Flagstad retired from public live wagner performance in 1953 but Culshaw (Decca records) was able to coax her into the recording studio for this 1957 studio stereo Walkure......Act 1 with Knap and Act 3 with Solti (no act 2 recorded). She also next year 1958 sang Fricka for Solti's stereo studio Rhiengold, so the 57 sessions acted as a dry run for the coming studio Solti Ring recordings that took place over several years.

Very rare chance to hear Flagstad in stereo studio sound, even though she was now in her 60s she really sounds great in these studio recordings done in fresh voice over controlled short time periods, best to buy the 2CD set (pix 1) since it includes the older Decca Legends disc for one low price. The booklet has some funny comments by Culshaw of how hard it was to record Knap under studio conditions, he was definitely a "live performance" conductor


----------



## gardibolt

This is interesting....a 1912 Italian silent movie version of Wagner's Parsifal (apparently in a Dutch print, judging by the intertitles).






Looks beautiful, but hard to imagine without the music.....


----------



## DarkAngel

DarkAngel said:


> Love the 71 Stein Ring, I am also getting a couple more Lohengrins, Gedda and young Domingo........


66 Lohengrin with Gedda is a real prize, live sound is very good and Gedda is a first rate Lohengrin right up there with the very best, highly recommended

68 Lohengrin with Domingo is a mess, one of the weakest sung Lohengrins I have heard and sound also not that great, "in fernem land" is rushed with no feeling, avoid


----------



## Itullian

^^^Thanks DA. Gedda on my list. :tiphat:


----------



## Itullian

11/13 release date


----------



## DarkAngel

DarkAngel said:


> Postman delivered more today.............


I have listened to these two stereo operas from the 2nd Keilberth Ring of 1955 a couple times now with Modl as Brunnhilde, they are just as great as what you have in boxset....just have some voices switched around for extra variety. Every role is filled with highest quality singers that we would die for today.

They really should issue a *bigger Keilberth 1955 Bayreuth Testament label boxset *that includes all the above as well as his 1955 stereo Dutchman for Testament, all at reduced price of course.......


----------



## Itullian

Testament never gives us a break.


----------



## gardibolt

Sad, isn't it? But I think I have all of them except maybe the Dutchman anyway.


----------



## Itullian

A truly great RING.
Streich's woodbird is totally charming.:angel:


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> A truly great RING.
> Streich's woodbird is totally charming.:angel:


That 53 Keilberth Ring wasn't even on my radar screen a year ago, now it is one of my very favorite Rings in very good sound and bargain price.......I am drowning in Wagner greatness with all the stuff this thread made me buy


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> That 53 Keilberth Ring wasn't even on my radar screen a year ago, now it is one of my very favorite Rings in very good sound and bargain price.......I am drowning in Wagner greatness with all the stuff this thread made me buy


Anything still on your list DA?


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Anything still on your list DA?


I think I have almost all the bases covered from 1951 Bayreuth re-opening till present day.........I am starting to burn out on all the live operadepot stuff, enough already

I would have to go very "historical" to uncover new material, don't tell Gardibolt that I sold the I*mmortal Performance Dream Ring *at Amazon, I was hoping for more (compared to Naxos versions)


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> I think I have almost all the bases covered from 1951 Bayreuth re-opening till present day.........I am starting to burn out on all the live operadepot stuff, enough already
> 
> I would have to go very "historical" to uncover new material, don't tell Gardibolt that I sold the I*mmortal Performance Dream Ring *at Amazon, *I was hoping for more (compared to Naxos versions)*


You mean sound wise?


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> You mean sound wise?


Yes overall sound quality is really about the same as Naxos versions for me, but it costs a small fortune for Immortal Performance. There are some differences in that IP Ring has sometimes combined different performances together to come up with best composite version, I have no problem with this but it can be alarming approach to Wagner purist.........

Pristine XR by contrast is a more radical unique restoration process that produces the best sound I have heard of any version, so I am willing to pay for my favorite recordings on Pristine XR and will never part with them


----------



## gardibolt

Yes, Caniell's philosophy is kind of peculiar. He has no problem with cutting and pasting various performances together, but shudders at the thought of clean up (other than click and pop removal). I'd like to see Pristine take his Dream Ring and then make it easier to listen to and bring out the life in it buried under the surface noise.

Those performances are still just incomparable. But if you can't get past the sound quality to enjoy it, then that's a problem.


----------



## Itullian

Anyone heard this?


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Anyone heard this?


Basically the same cast as 60 Knap which I have and mentioned (praised) here many times......Krips not sure about, have not heard it


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> Anyone heard this?


I don't know if anyone is aware of this little caveat about this recording. This was on Norpete's website.

NB: We have received the following note from a buyer of this performance: "the performance billed as Bayreuth 1961 conducted by Krips, appears to be a mixture of performances. The Sachs in the last part of Act 1 (and Act 2) is Neidlinger, I'm not sure who the Walther is, but it's not Windgassen...I'm guessing it's from the 1957 performance, and thus Geisler. It seems to revert back to 1961 for Act 3, at least what I've heard of it, so it appears that Myto incorrectly identified CD 2." - W. D. K.


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> I think I have almost all the bases covered from 1951 Bayreuth re-opening till present day.........I am starting to burn out on all the live operadepot stuff, enough already
> 
> I would have to go very "historical" to uncover new material, don't tell Gardibolt that I sold the I*mmortal Performance Dream Ring *at Amazon, I was hoping for more (compared to Naxos versions)


Hi DA. I am with you on the historical live issue. I now feel the need to hear something in a modern recording just to remind myself how good modern reproduction sounds. I love the quality of the singing in the fifties and sixties but I like to hear, from time to time, good stereo from a studio recording, even at the expense of top notch singing.

Having said that I'm listening to the Krips Meistersinger at the moment, tolerable recording quality notwithstanding, to see if I can identify the Walther in Act 2!


----------



## Barbebleu

I can't agree with the reviewer of the Krips Meistersinger on the Norpete website. It definitely sounds to me like Greindl and Windgassen all throughout Act 2. The last bit of Act 1 might, and I emphasise might, be from another recording, but I'm not convinced. The acoustic sounds a little different but that could be an engineering flaw. I am impressed, however, with Krips conducting. Beautifully paced and of course we have the incomparable Elisabeth Grummer as Eva. Greindl is a very fine Sachs and Windgassen his usual reliable self.

I should point out that I am not listening to the Myto recording so it might well be incorrect!


----------



## Itullian

Barbebleu said:


> Hi DA. I am with you on the historical live issue. I now feel the need to hear something in a modern recording just to remind myself how good modern reproduction sounds. I love the quality of the singing in the fifties and sixties but I like to hear, from time to time, *good stereo from a studio recording, even at the expense of top notch singing.*
> Having said that I'm listening to the Krips Meistersinger at the moment, tolerable recording quality notwithstanding, to see if I can identify the Walther in Act 2!


Sample the Thielemann set then. AMAZING sound and great conducting.


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## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> Sample the Thielemann set then. AMAZING sound and great conducting.


Got it. Just not got around to listening to it but I'll push it up the list!!


----------



## Itullian

Barbebleu said:


> Got it. Just not got around to listening to it but I'll push it up the list!!


The Bayreuth 2008, not the Vienna!

I wish they'd release the 2007 set too.
The one on youtube


----------



## gardibolt

I was poking around on norpete.com and they had what they called the "last few copies" of the now-out-of-print Sawallisch 1966 Ring with RAI. It was on sale for under $50 on Myto so there's another Ring on my belt. I love Sawallisch's take on other Wagner I've heard so here's hoping it's good. I see that he also did a cycle with Bavarian State Opera decades later.


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> I was poking around on norpete.com and they had what they called the "last few copies" of the now-out-of-print *Sawallisch 1966 Ring* with RAI. It was on sale for under $50 on Myto so there's another Ring on my belt. I love Sawallisch's take on other Wagner I've heard so here's hoping it's good. I see that he also did a cycle with Bavarian State Opera decades later.












68 Sawallisch Ring - got this at recent 50% sale at operadepot, very good with faster tempo like Bohm, the sound is slightly better on 71 Stein which I slightly prefer to this, both are worthy.....


----------



## Barbebleu

gardibolt said:


> I was poking around on norpete.com and they had what they called the "last few copies" of the now-out-of-print Sawallisch 1966 Ring with RAI. It was on sale for under $50 on Myto so there's another Ring on my belt. I love Sawallisch's take on other Wagner I've heard so here's hoping it's good. I see that he also did a cycle with Bavarian State Opera decades later.


The Bavarian State Opera set gets very short shrift from the critics. IMHO they have all got cloth ears. I like it fine and you could do a lot worse.


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> 68 Sawallisch Ring - got this at recent 50% sale at operadepot, very good with faster tempo like Bohm, the sound is slightly better on 71 Stein which I slightly prefer to this, both are worthy.....


I got this too in the same sale DA. Lucky you that you have had time to hear it and the 71 Stein. They are on my ever expanding list of things to listen to. I have been sidetracked by Brahms (choral works and lieder), Shostakovich(string quartets) and Richard Strauss (Capriccio, Daphne, Schweigsame Frau and Frau Ohne Schatten). Back to Wagner soon, I hope!


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> The Bayreuth 2008, not the Vienna!
> 
> I wish they'd release the 2007 set too.
> The one on youtube


Yep, that's the one. I'm not convinced that it is the 2007 on YouTube. It sounds identical to the 2008 and the act timings are identical too. I have a feeling it has been misdated.


----------



## gardibolt

Barbebleu said:


> I got this too in the same sale DA. Lucky you that you have had time to hear it and the 71 Stein. They are on my ever expanding list of things to listen to. I have been sidetracked by Brahms (choral works and lieder), Shostakovich(string quartets) and Richard Strauss (Capriccio, Daphne, Schweigsame Frau and Frau Ohne Schatten). Back to Wagner soon, I hope!


Once my shipment of the Myto version comes from Norpete I'll have to do an a/b comparison with the samples of Opera Depot set. It wouldn't shock me if they're just clones of the Myto discs.


----------



## DavidA

Peopke wanting a cheap Ring could certainly do worse than the Janowski (1) Well cast and conducted in good sound and available now very cheaply.


----------



## Barbebleu

gardibolt said:


> Once my shipment of the Myto version comes from Norpete I'll have to do an a/b comparison with the samples of Opera Depot set. It wouldn't shock me if they're just clones of the Myto discs.


I'll be interested to hear your opinion.


----------



## Itullian

Barbebleu said:


> Yep, that's the one. I'm not convinced that it is the 2007 on YouTube. It sounds identical to the 2008 and the act timings are identical too. I have a feeling it has been misdated.


I think you may be right.


----------



## gardibolt

gardibolt said:


> Once my shipment of the Myto version comes from Norpete I'll have to do an a/b comparison with the samples of Opera Depot set. It wouldn't shock me if they're just clones of the Myto discs.


Listened to Rheingold and compared it to the audio sample on the Opera Depot site. The Myto disc actually sounds pretty good--far, far better than the tinny and warbly sample that Opera Depot has. That's clearly not a rip of the Myto disc; the Depot version could be based on a cassette tape recording off the air or something, since it has that sort of sound quality, completely lacking in bass. The Myto disc is about on par with the early 1950s Bayreuth mono recordings, I'd say. Not modern-sounding, but good enough that you are listening to the vocalists and the orchestra and not the noise. The Myto also has much less (almost zero) tape hiss. Avoid the Opera Depot Rheingold. I'll spot check the other operas but I'm not optimistic.


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## Barbebleu

OperaDepot have a recording from Act 1 of Walkure from Bayreuth 1951. Not great quality but in the absence of any other source for this rarity it will have to suffice!


----------



## Bill H.

Following up, for completeness' sake.
When I am done with each installment of my re-do of the Krauss Ring Cycle (based on a generic digital source material I bought and downloaded a few years ago) I will post it here for anyone to download. Here's Die Walküre, in a zip file with three folders that correspond to individual CDs if anybody wants to burn them to a CD-R. There's also a brief Notepad file with the cast list and other info.

The editing I've done basically tries to rebalance the equalization and the ambience to give it a little more punch and presence. If anyone downloads it because they can't quite swing the cost of a full commercial release, or are just curious to hear this version, I would be grateful for any comments. I'll post the Siegfried and Götterdämmerung during the holiday season. Thank you.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByTWd_3f2RpSZFpYMUNZN1EtQ0U/view?usp=sharing



Bill H. said:


> Folks, I'd like to ask a favor of anyone here who's a fan of (or is just curious about) the 1953 Krauss Bayreuth Ring.
> Over the past few years I've played with my own re-engineering of the audio files of that performance, using a fairly reasonable quality mp3 download I bought several years ago as the baseline. Each time I come back to it, I find that my preferences in how to work the audio have evolved a bit. The link below will take you to a Google Drive download of my most recent working of Das Rheingold, which I've done now that I have new audio editing software that's much more capable than what I had been using. The file is a 329 MB zip of two folders, each of which have the recording split into mp3 tracks (at 320 kbps) that can both be burned onto two CD-Rs if so desired, or just listened to as is. I'm looking for some feedback on how this particular version sounds to your ears, especially if you have other versions of this same performance. Of course feel free to keep or delete the download depending on whether you find it to your liking. I'll be happy to answer questions, and if there's interest, I'm willing to share the other operas in this Ring cycle as I rework them once again. Thanks much!
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByTWd_3f2RpSZl9mYTY2UjBPVzA


----------



## gardibolt

gardibolt said:


> Listened to Rheingold and compared it to the audio sample on the Opera Depot site. The Myto disc actually sounds pretty good--far, far better than the tinny and warbly sample that Opera Depot has. That's clearly not a rip of the Myto disc; the Depot version could be based on a cassette tape recording off the air or something, since it has that sort of sound quality, completely lacking in bass. The Myto disc is about on par with the early 1950s Bayreuth mono recordings, I'd say. Not modern-sounding, but good enough that you are listening to the vocalists and the orchestra and not the noise. The Myto also has much less (almost zero) tape hiss. Avoid the Opera Depot Rheingold. I'll spot check the other operas but I'm not optimistic.


Continuing the comparison of the Sawallisch Rome RAI 1968 Ring Cycle, Myto vs. Opera Depot.

Die Walküre: Once again the Myto version has greater bass extension and a generally more natural sound. The Opera Depot version is much less weighty and more tinny; the treble of the Opera Depot version feels very boosted though the voices seem a bit more immediate. The Myto does, however, have some significant tape hiss present. The Myto disc does not have the static/interference present in the end of Fricka's scene in Act II (another indication that the Opera Depot set came from recordings of a radio). The difference between the two was not so marked as it was for Das Rheingold, but it's still pretty significant.

Siegfried: 
The Opera Depot sample of the forging scene from Act I sounds like it's underwater, but it doesn't have the tinny quality of the first two installments. I can't say that I liked the audio quality very much since it feels muffled. The Myto by comparison sounds much better and is crisp and clear. The snippet from Act III on Opera Depot's sample doesn't suffer from that murky quality, and is more comparable to the Myto disc. In fact I find it difficult to tell them apart and this section may be a rip of the Myto set. Brünnhilde's voice seems a little more natural on the Myto CD but that may be my imagination. The latter part is very close in quality. But given the bad forging scene, I couldn't recommend the Opera Depot over the Myto.

On to Götterdammerung.


----------



## DarkAngel

Bill H. said:


> Following up, for completeness' sake.
> When I am done with each installment of my re-do of the Krauss Ring Cycle (based on a generic digital source material I bought and downloaded a few years ago) I will post it here for anyone to download. Here's Die Walküre, in a zip file with three folders that correspond to individual CDs if anybody wants to burn them to a CD-R. There's also a brief Notepad file with the cast list and other info.
> 
> The editing I've done basically tries to rebalance the equalization and the ambience to give it a little more punch and presence. If anyone downloads it because they can't quite swing the cost of a full commercial release, or are just curious to hear this version, I would be grateful for any comments. I'll post the Siegfried and Götterdämmerung during the holiday season. Thank you.
> 
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByTWd_3f2RpSZFpYMUNZN1EtQ0U/view?usp=sharing


I was able to download and unzip most of that Walkure file, but I don't ever use Google Drive/Google Zip and it got "hung up" before fully unzipping all files.......perhaps I will try again but it was going slower than I expected and I have a 20mb speed download internet service

Great results however, already sounds better than any commercial Krauss Ring CD set I have heard like Opera d Oro boxset or the Orfeo, doesn't sound soft or heavily filtered like all the treble is rolled off etc, I like it! 

Also sounds like you managed to add back a more realistic bass and lower midrange, this is always a weak area of mono recordings.......and also something you notice right away in a Pristine XR remaster, makes a very noticeable improvement


----------



## Bill H.

DarkAngel said:


> I was able to download and unzip most of that Walkure file, but I don't ever use Google Drive/Google Zip and it got "hung up" before fully unzipping all files.......perhaps I will try again but it was going slower than I expected and I have a 20mb speed download internet service
> 
> Great results however, already sounds better than any commercial Krauss Ring CD set I have heard like Opera d Oro boxset or the Orfeo, doesn't sound soft or heavily filtered like all the treble is rolled off etc, I like it!
> 
> Also sounds like you managed to add back a more realistic bass and lower midrange, this is always a weak area of mono recordings.......and also something you notice right away in a Pristine XR remaster, makes a very noticeable improvement


Thanks for your comments! It might be possible get the files more easily by bypassing Google zip altogether and just doing a straight download to your hard drive of the zip file, then use WinZip or 7-Zip (my preferred program) to extract the files. Let me know if you have continuing problems and we'll figure out something else, like maybe dropbox.


----------



## Bill H.

DarkAngel said:


> Great results however, already sounds better than any commercial Krauss Ring CD set I have heard like Opera d Oro boxset or the Orfeo, doesn't sound soft or heavily filtered like all the treble is rolled off etc, I like it!
> 
> Also sounds like you managed to add back a more realistic bass and lower midrange, this is always a weak area of mono recordings.......and also something you notice right away in a Pristine XR remaster, makes a very noticeable improvement


Since the source material was a clean "tape" copy (i.e. not an LP transfer), I didn't try to do any noise/hiss reduction just to help prevent any semblance of filtering of the high frequencies, especially since I tweaked that end anyway. I actually have NOT heard the Pristine XR version in quite awhile, except website excerpts. It doesn't surprise me that adding more reinforcement to the lower midrange and bass makes a big difference to both approaches, as does the addition of some digital "ambience" to make the mono sound less boxy.

Also, especially in the case of Rheingold, I did some adjustments to the master volume in spots to reverse where I could hear that the original engineers did some gain riding, probably to prevent overloading of the signal. I hate it when the music is clearly getting louder but the volume on the recording is being turned down.

My understanding of the XR process is that they can take a preferred "reference" recording's frequency spectrum and use that as the model to automatically tailor the recording being remastered to a similar frequency response. Parametric equalization is a pretty common feature to audio editing software these days, but in my case the software I use has neither the means nor do I have the training to have it "fit" to a predetermined curve. Everything is tweaked "by ear" and is an "average" solution, and so that means it's pretty subjective as to whether I make the right decisions against someone else's taste. Folks who might want minimal intervention could very well hate this kind of remastering, but I can live with that because it's done foremost for my listening needs.


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## gardibolt

Concluding the comparison of the Sawallisch Ring Cycle from 1968 with RAI Rome, Myto vs Opera Depot: The Opera Depot sample from the Prologue sounds pretty good, and comparable to the Myto disc. The Myto Götterdämmerung isn't quite as high quality as the first three installments. It's lacking in lower bass and has a slightly tinny quality of its own. The other excerpts of the Opera Depot are considerably worse than the Myto disc, however, with random bits of suddenly loud hiss and a moderate warble in spots, not to mention periodic clipping on louder notes. While the Myto disc isn't great, it's better than the Opera Depot samples, other than the Prologue clip. 

Final Verdict: The Myto set (now out of print, but still available cheaply from norpete.com) is much preferable to the Opera Depot version most of the time. At best, the Opera Depot samples are comparable to the Myto version. This is by no means a recommendation of this performance though; few members of the cast (other than Theo Adam) are up to the task. Jean Cox as Siegfried and Nadezda Kniplova as Brünnhilde are severely overmatched by their roles. While it's interesting if you're a fan of Sawallisch, this shouldn't be anyone's first or second choice for a Ring Cycle, no matter which version. Most people will be best advised to look elsewhere. But if you have a dozen Ring Cycles and are looking for another one for a comparison, give the Myto version of the 1968 Rome Sawallisch a try. It'll make clear to you just how important a proper Wagnerian singer is to these operas.


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## DarkAngel

> While it's interesting if you're a fan of Sawallisch, this shouldn't be anyone's first or second choice for a Ring Cycle, no matter which version. Most people will be best advised to look elsewhere. But if you have a dozen Ring Cycles and are looking for another one for a comparison, give the Myto version of the 1968 Rome Sawallisch a try. It'll make clear to you just how important a proper Wagnerian singer is to these operas.


^^^ Also for people like Barbie who can't sleep well at night knowing there is another Wagner Ring out there that is not in his mighty collection, ha ha 

I think the 71 Stein Ring from operadepot will be more to your liking.....


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## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> ^^^ Also for people like Barbie who can't sleep well at night knowing there is another Wagner Ring out there that is not in his mighty collection, ha ha
> 
> I think the 71 Stein Ring from operadepot will be more to your liking.....


I was going to argue with you DA, but sadly you are correct.:lol:


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## gardibolt

So the 1971 is the best of the Steins, DA?


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## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> So the 1971 is the best of the Steins, DA?


Can't compare it in depth to other Stein Rings, only by samples I have heard......but I do have the 71 Stein Ring from operadepot and the sound and performances are very worthy, I am pleased


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## gardibolt

Got the new Knappertsbusch Lohengrin from 1963 released by Orfeo today from MDT. A quick look reveals that alas, Act II spills over onto CD 3 (it could quite comfortably all fit on CD 2, so it's done just to annoy certain people so far as I can tell). I've only browsed through the booklet thus far. It's the only released recording of Lohengrin with Kna at the helm, and appears to be his very last performance of the opera, as well as the last performance at the Prince Regent Theater in Munich for some decades. It's also apparently the only Lohengrin of Hans Hopf to survive. So it's an important document in several respects. It comes from the house tape from the collection of the producer/deputy intendant of the house. Astrid Varnay fans note that she also appears here as Ortrud. Looking forward to giving this a spin over the weekend. No idea what cuts, if any, there are as of yet. I'll report back as to the sound quality later.


----------



## Itullian

gardibolt said:


> Got the new Knappertsbusch Lohengrin from 1963 released by Orfeo today from MDT.* A quick look reveals that alas, Act II spills over onto CD 3 (it could quite comfortably all fit on CD 2, so it's done just to annoy certain people so far as I can tell)*. I've only browsed through the booklet thus far. It's the only released recording of Lohengrin with Kna at the helm, and appears to be his very last performance of the opera, as well as the last performance at the Prince Regent Theater in Munich for some decades. It's also apparently the only Lohengrin of Hans Hopf to survive. So it's an important document in several respects. It comes from the house tape from the collection of the producer/deputy intendant of the house. Astrid Varnay fans note that she also appears here as Ortrud. Looking forward to giving this a spin over the weekend. No idea what cuts, if any, there are as of yet. I'll report back as to the sound quality later.


Me.........:scold:


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## gardibolt

Sorry, I misread the timings. Act II would not fit on CD 2 after all. CD 2 has 78 minutes and the part that spills over onto CD 3 is 7m long. I don't think it would be possible to get 85+ minutes on one CD. So it's not as outrageous as I thought initially.


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## Itullian

gardibolt said:


> Sorry, I misread the timings. Act II would not fit on CD 2 after all. CD 2 has 78 minutes and the part that spills over onto CD 3 is 7m long. I don't think it would be possible to get 85+ minutes on one CD. So it's not as outrageous as I thought initially.


Its ok then.
I wish all Lohengrins were arranged like Solti's. Act 1 first disc.
Acr 2, 2 and 3
Act 3, disc 4.


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## DarkAngel

Another thread about "Dutchman" triggered my automatic buy response at Amazon USA, purchased these two 1950 performances, awaiting arrival (both with Astrid):

How could Hotter (in 1950) be anything but a great Dutchman, such great vocal characterization in his roles.........


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## DarkAngel

Andrew Rose assures me I will very soon receive my "lost" 40 MET Walkure by special delivery, will be great companion to my 41 Naxos MET Walkure


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## DarkAngel

Like Barbie I also got a stands alone Rheingold, but not the new Rattle, instead 57 MET Steidry less than $5 at Amazon USA

Hans Hotter at this time had the Bayreuth Wotan role locked up but at the MET we have a chance to hear Hermann Uhde as Wotan and a strong supporting cast......although the Alberich is unknown to me (Lawrence Davidson) We hear Uhde as Wotan again later in the 60 Kempe Ring and earlier in the 52 Keilberth Ring


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## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Like Barbie I also got a stands alone Rheingold, but not the new Rattle, instead 57 MET Steidry less than $5 at Amazon USA
> 
> Hans Hotter at this time had the Bayreuth Wotan role locked up but at the MET we have a chance to hear Hermann Uhde as Wotan and a strong supporting cast......although the Alberich is unknown to me (Lawrence Davidson)


Hpw's the sound DA?


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## DarkAngel

^^^ samples at JPC Germany sound good enough to me, that place always has the hard to find samples......can't find any long youtube samples

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Richard-Wagner-1813-1883-Das-Rheingold/hnum/1421131


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## Barbebleu

H


DarkAngel said:


> Like Barbie I also got a stands alone Rheingold, but not the new Rattle, instead 57 MET Steidry less than $5 at Amazon USA
> 
> Hans Hotter at this time had the Bayreuth Wotan role locked up but at the MET we have a chance to hear Hermann Uhde as Wotan and a strong supporting cast......although the Alberich is unknown to me (Lawrence Davidson) We hear Uhde as Wotan again later in the 60 Kempe Ring and earlier in the 52 Keilberth Ring


Pretty nice cast on this DA. Enjoy.


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## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> Like Barbie I also got a stands alone Rheingold, but not the new Rattle, instead 57 MET Steidry less than $5 at Amazon USA
> 
> Hans Hotter at this time had the Bayreuth Wotan role locked up but at the MET we have a chance to hear Hermann Uhde as Wotan and a strong supporting cast......although the Alberich is unknown to me (Lawrence Davidson) We hear Uhde as Wotan again later in the 60 Kempe Ring and earlier in the 52 Keilberth Ring


Managed to get a copy from Germany. £5.29 including postage!! Also Uhde sang the Dutchman in '55 at Bayreuth under Keilberth. I have had that one in my collection for a while. One of the best Dutchmen I have.


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## Barbebleu

Just acquired Mastersingers, London 1968 conducted by Goodall, sung in English, hence the name!


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## DarkAngel

DarkAngel said:


> Like Barbie I also got a stands alone Rheingold, but not the new Rattle, instead 57 MET Steidry less than $5 at Amazon USA
> 
> Hans Hotter at this time had the Bayreuth Wotan role locked up but at the MET we have a chance to hear Hermann Uhde as Wotan and a strong supporting cast......although the Alberich is unknown to me (Lawrence Davidson) We hear Uhde as Wotan again later in the 60 Kempe Ring and earlier in the 52 Keilberth Ring


This is an absolute winner, sound is very good up to the same levels as Bayreuth 57-58 Walhalls, cast is great especially Uhde as wotan, Vinay as loge, Thebom as fricka etc.......the Bayreuth casts are even stronger in the minor roles during this time, but this MET recording would be a dream cast by todays standards, buy buy buy


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## DarkAngel

DarkAngel said:


>


Unfortunately that 50 Steidry Lohengrin does not make the grade sound wise, I wanted to like it but too compromised it is already back on sale used


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## gardibolt

That Stiedry Rheingold looks interesting. I hope the rest will follow in due time. Partial Rings upset me (looking at you, Testament, with half the 1955 2d cycle released and the rest who knows where).

I'm giving the Karajan 1960s Salzburg Siegfried download from Opera Depot another chance today. The sound still isn't the best (better than in the first two operas though, yet still limited and boxy), but it's a very good performance; the battle with Fafner is quite thrilling and Act III is excellent. I still need to give the Karajan studio set a listen (I'm working my way through the Karajan Opera box but am only up to Puccini so far) but I hope it's as good a performance as this one.


----------



## DarkAngel

*Operadepot*

Has *cyber Monday sale for next couple days with 60% off all titles*, nice price I may pick up the 65 Bohm Bayreuth which preceeds the famous current commercial release 66-67 Bohm Ring, the guy who runs operadepot thinks overall the cast is superior in 65 Bohm (the one he is selling, heh heh)

Nilsson at her absolute peak live, the Wotan role divided with lighter baritone Theo Adams taking Wotan and darker voiced Greindl taking the Wanderer


----------



## DarkAngel

DarkAngel said:


> *Operadepot*
> 
> Has *cyber Monday sale for next couple days with 60% off all titles*, nice price I may pick up the 65 Bohm Bayreuth which preceeds the famous current commercial release 66-67 Bohm Ring, the guy who runs operadepot thinks overall the cast is superior in 65 Bohm (the one he is selling, heh heh)
> 
> Nilsson at her absolute peak live, the Wotan role divided with lighter baritone Theo Adams taking Wotan and darker voiced Greindl taking the Wanderer


I did order that 65 Bohm Bayreuth Ring at 60% discount.......sound quality great from samples, Nilsson really on top of her game!

Also Pristine did at last get me the 40 Leinsdorf MET Walkure, I have never heard a 1940s era Wagner opera sound this good, a real asset to my historical collection!


----------



## gardibolt

Isn't that Leinsdorf Walküre from Pristine great? At least now you have a Melchior you can be happy with. The guy is amazing. And it's not like Flagstad or Lawrence or List are schlubs....

I ordered the 1971 Stein during their sale on your recommendation....you're going to get me to order the 1965 Böhm too, aren't you? OTOH, I don't have the later one, so the 1965 might do it for me.


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> Isn't that Leinsdorf Walküre from Pristine great? At least now you have a Melchior you can be happy with. The guy is amazing. And it's not like Flagstad or Lawrence or List are schlubs....
> 
> I ordered the 1971 Stein during their sale on your recommendation....you're going to get me to order the 1965 Böhm too, aren't you? OTOH, *I don't have the later one, so the 1965 might do it for me*.


Still need the commercial release 67 Bohm Bayreuth Ring, it is in stereo and slightly different cast, plus very cheap $27 Amazon USA sellers.....


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> Still need the commercial release 67 Bohm Bayreuth Ring, it is in stereo and slightly different cast, plus very cheap $27 Amazon USA sellers.....


Remembering of course that it's actually '66 and '67. Walkure and Gotterdammerung are from '66


----------



## howlingfantods

DarkAngel said:


> Still need the commercial release 67 Bohm Bayreuth Ring, it is in stereo and slightly different cast, plus very cheap $27 Amazon USA sellers.....


Or you could get my favorite bargain around, this big Wagner Bayreuth box:









Selling used for $35 to $40, it's got the very excellent full Bohm Ring, the Bohm Tristan, Sawallisch Hollander (Crass/Silja), Sawallisch Lohengrin (Thomas/Silja), and the Sawallisch Tannhauser (Windgassen/Silja/Bumbry). Also a mediocre Varviso Meistersinger (Riddersbusch/Cox/Bode) and a dodgy Levine Parsifal (Hoffman/Sotin/Meier), but they can't all be winners. But if you're missing the Bohm Ring plus one or two of the other Bohm or Sawallisch recordings, it's very worth it.

After hearing the sample from the Opera Depot site, I'd definitely get the commercial Bohm Ring before the 1965. The 1965 doesn't sound bad but it certainly doesn't sound as good as the commercial set.


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## gardibolt

Yeah, I listened to all four samples of the 1965 at Opera Depot and didn't find the sound quality all that appealing---the recording equipment doesn't seem to have been able to handle the Full Nilsson and there's an awful lot of clipping.

The local library has that Great Operas box and I probably will visit their copy first.


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## Barbebleu

gardibolt said:


> Yeah, I listened to all four samples of the 1965 at Opera Depot and didn't find the sound quality all that appealing---the recording equipment doesn't seem to have been able to handle the Full Nilsson and there's an awful lot of clipping.
> 
> The local library has that Great Operas box and I probably will visit their copy first.


I have found that the actual downloads sound better than the samples. It all depends on how much you feel that you need the '65 Ring!


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## DarkAngel

Was listening to my beloved Astrid today 52 & 51 performances, I love her so much I decided to get this book very cheap used at Amazon USA, nobody like this around today just fabulous stuff that emotionally touches my soul like no other......


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## DarkAngel

DarkAngel said:


> Also Pristine did at last get me the 40 Leinsdorf MET Walkure, *I have never heard a 1940s era Wagner opera sound this good*, a real asset to my historical collection!


Check out this new professional review of the Pristine XR recording above.........then buy!

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2015/Dec/Wagner_Walkure_PACO125.htm


----------



## DarkAngel

^^^^ That reviewer really likes Wotan performance of Julius Huehn, that name sounds familiar and sure enough he also appears in famous MET 41 Fidelio also with Flagstad (another must buy)


----------



## gardibolt

The Fidelio was listed by the Sunday Times as one of the best classical releases of 2015. Can't argue with that conclusion myself, though I think the Leinsdorf Walküre should be up there too.

Reading the review, I did not know Marjorie Lawrence's career was cut short by polio. What a shame; she's so good.


----------



## The Conte

gardibolt said:


> The Fidelio was listed by the Sunday Times as one of the best classical releases of 2015. Can't argue with that conclusion myself, though I think the Leinsdorf Walküre should be up there too.
> 
> Reading the review, I did not know Marjorie Lawrence's career was cut short by polio. What a shame; she's so good.


I hadn't hear of Marjorie Lawrence until getting the Met Wagner box set on Sony. That is when I looked into the career of Marjorie Lawrence. She was variable (her Goetterdaemrung Bruenhilde is wayward in places), but although it's heresy to say so, I prefer her Walkuere Bruenhilde over Flagstad's. She doesn't have as much squillo as Falgstad and I imagine her voice didn't carry as far in the theatre as a result, however I love the dark colour of her voice and when on form she was very exciting.

N.


----------



## kineno

Anyone interested in Lawrence certainly needs to see the 1955 film, "Interrupted Melody". It's on YouTube:


----------



## Bill H.

Just wanted to update those still reading this thread that I'm finished with my latest reworking of the Siegfried from the Krauss Bayreuth cycle of 1953. The performance you already know, but as always I welcome comments, complaints, suggestions etc. about the sound quality of this particular homebrew edit.

The zipped mp3 folder (543 MB total) is available for download at this link:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByTWd_3f2RpSc1NVUUZKd1MtVkE

Like the Rheingold and Walküre, I've divided the tracks into subfolders, each one suitable for burning onto a CD-R if you listen that way. One thing I have done differently than most other commercial releases of this performance however is that I've split the entirety of Act I to two CDs, the second of which is fairly short. That way I could fit Acts II and III complete on separate disks for each. Unfortunately, the performance is too long to fit onto three disks.

Bill


----------



## DarkAngel

DarkAngel said:


> ^^^^ That reviewer really likes Wotan performance of Julius Huehn, that name sounds familiar and sure enough he also appears in famous MET 41 Fidelio also with Flagstad (another must buy)


Besides actually buying these great Pristine XR remasters of great MET broadcast performances you must also buy this large format book, it has many high quality photos and in depth discussion of singers and actual MET performances, an essential opera purchase very cheap used at Amazon USA........










There are also two follow-up books by same author following MET historical progression to more modern times, you must own these also buy buy buy.......


----------



## gellio

The Kna '57 Ring on Walhall Eternity Series is to die for. Can be bought cheaply on Amazon. Each opera is sold individually.


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## DarkAngel

gellio said:


> The Kna '57 Ring on Walhall Eternity Series is to die for. Can be bought cheaply on Amazon. Each opera is sold individually.


We have all been raving about those Walhall and Myto 1950s Bayreuth Rings in this thread for long time, the dream casts are now captured in very good sound at low prices, a gift from the opera gods in Valhalla......

Once you have collected all those it is time to take the final ultimate step, Pristine XR 53 Krauss and 50 Furtwangler Rings!


----------



## gellio

DarkAngel said:


> We have all been raving about those Walhall and Myto 1950s Bayreuth Rings in this thread for long time, the dream casts are now captured in very good sound at low prices, a gift from the opera gods in Valhalla......
> 
> Once you have collected all those it is time to take the final ultimate step, Pristine XR 53 Krauss and 50 Furtwangler Rings!


Not sure Pristine is worth it. Can the sound really be THAT much better? Still mono, right?

How is the Kna '58? There are a few cast differences. How does it compare on timing?

Thanks as always DA for your input.


----------



## DarkAngel

gellio said:


> Not sure Pristine is worth it. Can the sound really be THAT much better? Still mono, right?
> 
> How is the Kna '58? There are a few cast differences. How does it compare on timing?
> 
> Thanks as always DA for your input.


There is little change in timings or sound quality between 57 -> 58 Knap Rings on Walhall Eternity label, there are some important cast variations in the Walsungs and Siegfried...........58 Walsungs are Rysanek / Vickers (57 Nilsson / Vinay) and 58 Siegfried is Windgassen (57 Aldenhoff).............same Brunnhilde and Wotan in both

57 Alberich is better with iconic Niedlinger vs 58 Andersson, Mimes are also different etc etc
You can see the reason why you must own all the 50s Bayreuth Rings.......

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

There are 3-4 people here that have the Pristine XRs, I am confident in saying we all agree they are *by a large margin the finest sounding CD versions *of 53 Krauss and 50 Furtwangler Rings. whether that is worth paying extra for is up to each person's priorities


----------



## kineno

Another thing that could be mentioned about Kna 57 (and I haven't seen it mentioned here): there's a cut in the forging scene of Siegfried. Purportedly to make things easier for Aldenhoff, who was standing in for Windgassen.


----------



## gellio

kineno said:


> Another thing that could be mentioned about Kna 57 (and I haven't seen it mentioned here): there's a cut in the forging scene of Siegfried. Purportedly to make things easier for Aldenhoff, who was standing in for Windgassen.


Yeah, I noticed that. Interesting. I'm excited to hear the '58. For Vickers especially. They are quite good and the sound quality on the '57 is better than any mono recording I've heard.


----------



## gellio

DarkAngel said:


> There is little change in timings or sound quality between 57 -> 58 Knap Rings on Walhall Eternity label, there are some important cast variations in the Walsungs and Siegfried...........58 Walsungs are Rysanek / Vickers (57 Nilsson / Vinay) and 58 Siegfried is Windgassen (57 Aldenhoff).............same Brunnhilde and Wotan in both
> 
> 57 Alberich is better with iconic Niedlinger vs 58 Andersson, Mimes are also different etc etc
> You can see the reason why you must own all the 50s Bayreuth Rings.......
> 
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> 
> There are 3-4 people here that have the Pristine XRs, I am confident in saying we all agree they are *by a large margin the finest sounding CD versions *of 53 Krauss and 50 Furtwangler Rings. whether that is worth paying extra for is up to each person's priorities


Thanks does the Pristine Krauss sound as good as the Kna Rings?


----------



## DarkAngel

gellio said:


> Thanks does the Pristine Krauss sound as good as the Kna Rings?


I would say overall yes, but they are different. You get "ambient stereo" with Pristine XR and Andrew Rose will rebalance the sound during remaster to a selected known reference, bass and lower mids always sound cleaner and more forceful on the Pristine XRs.......plus whole layers of fine detail will now be heard at all levels that were obscured before, the 50 Furtwangler Ring is just amazing in this respect

As mentioned before there are long high quality free samples for every album for sale at Pristine website, also you can buy one opera first to see if you like it then later buy remaining Ring


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## gellio

I honestly don't see how anything can be better than the Kna '57 Walkure.


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## gellio

Has anyone heard the Boulez '76 found here:

http://operadepot.com/products/wagn...as-mcintyre-hofmann-bode-boulez-bayreuth-1976

The sample sounds fantastic.


----------



## DarkAngel

gellio said:


> Has anyone heard the Boulez '76 found here:
> 
> http://operadepot.com/products/wagn...as-mcintyre-hofmann-bode-boulez-bayreuth-1976
> 
> The sample sounds fantastic.


Yes I have 76 Ring and probably Barbie also has it, these are not official releases many taken from vinyl media so not great sound but sometimes pretty good......Gardibolt has some Rings also from operadepot

Just wait till they have a 50% off sale which happens often, then try some out.......


----------



## gellio

DarkAngel said:


> Yes I have 76 Ring and probably Barbie also has it, these are not official releases many taken from vinyl media so not great sound but sometimes pretty good......Gardibolt has some Rings also from operadepot
> 
> Just wait till they have a 50% off sale which happens often, then try some out.......


I knew you'd reply  Thank you. I heard a sound clip from the Boulez '76 and the sound sounded great. Maybe it's not that great, though?

The funny thing is, I don't notice the poor sound while listening. The singing is just so riveting. Listening to Kna's 57 Walkure - AGAIN!


----------



## DarkAngel

gellio said:


> I knew you'd reply  Thank you. I heard a sound clip from the Boulez '76 and the sound sounded great. Maybe it's not that great, though?
> 
> The funny thing is, I don't notice the poor sound while listening. The singing is just so riveting. Listening to Kna's 57 Walkure - AGAIN!


There is a "Bayreuth sound" you get used to when listening to many 50s Bayreuth Rings, more focus/emphasis on voices with orchestra less prominent because of design of Bayreuth orchestra pit covered over and out of sight from audience.......if I then go and listen to Solti it seems bombastic by comparison with wildly empahasized huge orchestra sound, all is good though just an observation we can handle


----------



## gellio

DarkAngel said:


> There is a "Bayreuth sound" you get used to when listening to many 50s Bayreuth Rings, more focus/emphasis on voices with orchestra less prominent because of design of Bayreuth orchestra pit covered over and out of sight from audience.......if I then go and listen to Solti it seems bombastic by comparison with wildly empahasized huge orchestra sound, all is good though just an observation we can handle


Exactly. The Solti is still my favorite, and I imagine will always be, because the magnificent sound envelops me!


----------



## gellio

Does anyone have the Karajan Salzburg Ring offered on Opera Depot? I got the Boulez '76 tonight and it is just fantastic. Great sound, and Jones is amazing. So far absolutely loving this Ring. Thinking of getting the Karajan. Side note: the Buenos Aires Ring with Nilsson is free right now at operadepot.com. Downloaded, but haven't listened to.


----------



## Barbebleu

gellio said:


> Does anyone have the Karajan Salzburg Ring offered on Opera Depot? I got the Boulez '76 tonight and it is just fantastic. Great sound, and Jones is amazing. So far absolutely loving this Ring. Thinking of getting the Karajan. Side note: the Buenos Aires Ring with Nilsson is free right now at operadepot.com. Downloaded, but haven't listened to.


I have it. I like it but others on this forum don't. The excitement of live performance, in my opinion, out weighs the few sonic difficulties. But as I said, in my opinion only.


----------



## gellio

Barbebleu said:


> I have it. I like it but others on this forum don't. The excitement of live performance, in my opinion, out weighs the few sonic difficulties. But as I said, in my opinion only.


Thanks. I will grab it when they have their next sale.


----------



## gellio

That's exactly it Dark Angel - you all make it so hard. The Boulez '76 is so fascinating. The massive boos at the beginning of ACT III of Gotterdammerung, the whistle during the Forging Song. What a document of an interesting production. I can't believe people behaved like this at the opera.


----------



## The Conte

gellio said:


> That's exactly it Dark Angel - you all make it so hard. The Boulez '76 is so fascinating. The massive boos at the beginning of ACT III of Gotterdammerung, the whistle during the Forging Song. What a document of an interesting production. I can't believe people behaved like this at the opera.


I can't believe they don't behave like that now with some of the singing I've heard recently.

Instead the creative team get booed just because the costumes were somewhat ugly.

N.


----------



## Woodduck

gellio said:


> That's exactly it Dark Angel - you all make it so hard. The Boulez '76 is so fascinating. *The massive boos at the beginning of ACT III of Gotterdammerung, the whistle during the Forging Song.* What a document of an interesting production. *I can't believe people behaved like this at the opera.*


That particular production aside, maybe if more people behaved like that at the opera, instead of sitting there passively like dumb cattle at the slaughterhouse, we'd have fewer directors insulting us with idiotic deconstructions of great works of art and more respect for the composers and the public.


----------



## gellio

Woodduck said:


> That particular production aside, maybe if more people behaved like that at the opera, instead of sitting there passively like dumb cattle at the slaughterhouse, we'd have fewer directors insulting us with idiotic deconstructions of great works of art and more respect for the composers and the public.


Fair and good point. As Winifred Wagner, who disliked the production said, "isn't it better to be furious than to be bored?" I don't think I could put it any better.


----------



## DarkAngel

The Conte said:


> I can't believe they don't behave like that now with some of the singing I've heard recently.
> 
> Instead the creative team get booed just because the costumes were somewhat ugly.
> N.





Woodduck said:


> That particular production aside, maybe if more people behaved like that at the opera, instead of sitting there passively like dumb cattle at the slaughterhouse, we'd have fewer directors insulting us with idiotic deconstructions of great works of art and more respect for the composers and the public.


The avante Wagner directors take pride in being booed by the mindless sheep in the audience, it proves their visionary approach is ahead of its time :devil:


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## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> The avante Wagner directors take pride in being booed by the mindless sheep in the audience, it proves their visionary approach is ahead of its time :devil:


I'm afraid you are right. We just can't win. It really is a job for the UN.


----------



## Bill H.

PSA for all you Ring folk:

Today only, Pristine Classical is offering their marvelous remastering of the Furtwängler La Scala Ring Cycle of 1950. If you buy it today in 16 or 24 bit FLAC format, you can add whatever else you want from their catalog and get 15% off the entire purchase. Only condition is that this is for downloads only--no CD orders.

http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?f=001E6Wf...PtfxucZS-9iOO6WUjjmqS8ledoF1v2PlBGB5AQfu6-Q==

http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?f=001E6Wf...PtfxucZS-9iOO6WUjjmqS8ledoF1v2PlBGB5AQfu6-Q==

If you find that the cost (even with the discount) is a bit steep, I will attest that the cheaper mp3 versions sound just fine. I'll crosspost this to one of the other Wagner threads as well.

PS I'm hoping to have my remix of the Krauss Götterdämmerung up and available by New Year's.


----------



## The Conte

What's your favourite Flagstad/Melchior Tristan everybody?

N.


----------



## Woodduck

The Conte said:


> What's your favourite Flagstad/Melchior Tristan everybody?
> N.


I haven't heard them all. I've always liked the Covent Garden under Beecham, but I recently acquired the 1/2/37 Met performance with Bodanzky, which has Flagstad giving what must be one of the great performances of her career, and Melchior, Kerstin Thorborg, Julius Huehn and Ludwig Hofmann all superb. It was a goosebumps night in the theater, and for the moment it's my favorite. It's just a shame _Tristan_ was almost always performed with cuts in those days.


----------



## gellio

There is a Goodall Ring (in English) on Opera Depot. Anyone hear it? If so, how's the sound quality? It's on 14 CDs, so I'm guessing it much faster than the commercial release so I am considering it. Thanks.


----------



## DarkAngel

The Conte said:


> What's your favourite Flagstad/Melchior Tristan everybody?





Woodduck said:


> I haven't heard them all. I've always liked the Covent Garden under Beecham, but I recently acquired the 1/2/37 Met performance with Bodanzky, which has Flagstad giving what must be one of the great performances of her career, and Melchior, Kerstin Thorborg, Julius Huehn and Ludwig Hofmann all superb. It was a goosebumps night in the theater, and for the moment it's my favorite. It's just a shame _Tristan_ was almost always performed with cuts in those days.


I have the 38 Bodanzky MET (from MET Wagner boxset) and 36 Reiner ROH (naxos) and 37 Beecham ROH (Andromeda) on cheap Cds......but I now think the best I have heard is a direct stream of 41 Leinsdorf from MET (Spotify, Amazon Prime), available on CD but expensive!


----------



## DarkAngel

DarkAngel said:


> I have the 38 Bodanzky MET (from MET Wagner boxset) and 36 Reiner ROH (naxos) and 37 Beecham ROH (Andromeda) on cheap Cds......but I now think the best I have heard is a direct stream of 41 Leinsdorf from MET (Spotify, Amazon Prime), available on CD but expensive!


I will again implore, beg wagner fans to get the book below cheap used at Amazon USA.....it details all the broadcast MET Isolde peformances by Flagstad including the 1937-39 Bodanzky series and 1940-41 Leinsdorf before Flagstad left for Norway during war.


----------



## Belowpar

gellio said:


> There is a Goodall Ring (in English) on Opera Depot. Anyone hear it? If so, how's the sound quality? It's on 14 CDs, so I'm guessing it much faster than the commercial release so I am considering it. Thanks.


I believe its the same. My Chandos ring has 14 discs.


----------



## The Conte

DarkAngel said:


> I have the 38 Bodanzky MET (from MET Wagner boxset) and 36 Reiner ROH (naxos) and 37 Beecham ROH (Andromeda) on cheap Cds......but I now think the best I have heard is a direct stream of 41 Leinsdorf from MET (Spotify, Amazon Prime), available on CD but expensive!


I am half way through that recording and I love it, I think I prefer it over the Bodanzky in the MET box set. I need to hear the Beecham and the other Bodanzky, though.

N.


----------



## gellio

Belowpar said:


> I believe its the same. My Chandos ring has 14 discs.


Oh no it don't! Rheingold is 3 discs and Dammerung is 5. The whole thing is 16 discs. WAY TOOOOOOOO SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW!


----------



## DarkAngel

The Conte said:


> I am half way through that recording and I love it, I think I prefer it over the Bodanzky in the MET box set. I need to hear the Beecham and the *other Bodanzky*, though.


The 37 MET Bodanzky Tristan duck mentions is not easy to find, I have never seen it before even though I searched the usual places, perhaps we can get duck to reveal his secret source for that performance........


----------



## gellio

Let's talk about the ring, let's talk about the ring, let's talk about the ring!


----------



## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> The 37 MET Bodanzky Tristan duck mentions is not easy to find, I have never seen it before even though I searched the usual places, perhaps we can get duck will reveal his secret source for that performance........


My secret source is a used copy I found for $2.50 at a local library, along with the Vienna "two Kundrys" _Parsifal_ under Karajan for $1.50. My kinda prices! The _Tristan_ is on a label known as "The 40s Label," about which I can find no information at all, except that this claims to be a "new remastering with Cedar sound system." The performance is available on other labels, but although it's listed on Amazon, no search of the site will bring it up. I Googled it and came up with:

http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Flagstad-Melchior-Thorborg-Bodanzky/dp/B000EHJN5W

It's also here: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wagner-Flagstad-Melchior-Thorborg-Bodanzky/dp/B000EHJN5W

and here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bodanzky-Wa...-York-January-2-1937-Kirsten-Fl-/400654577344

And here are the labels on which it can be found: http://members.tip.net.au/~jgbrown/Tristan/discography/content/1937ny.htm


----------



## Woodduck

gellio said:


> Let's talk about the ring, let's talk about the ring, let's talk about the ring!


Now, now, Gellio. We don't interrupt when others are speaking, do we? We raise our hand, and we wait to be called on. :angel:


----------



## DarkAngel

Woodduck said:


> My secret source is a used copy I found for $2.50 at a local library, along with the Vienna "two Kundrys" _Parsifal_ under Karajan for $1.50. My kinda prices! The _Tristan_ is on a label known as "The 40s Label," about which I can find no information at all, except that this claims to be a "new remastering with Cedar sound system." The performance is available on other labels, but although it's listed on Amazon, no search of the site will bring it up. I Googled it and came up with:
> 
> *http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Flagstad-Melchior-Thorborg-Bodanzky/dp/B000EHJN5W*
> 
> It's also here: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wagner-Flagstad-Melchior-Thorborg-Bodanzky/dp/B000EHJN5W
> 
> and here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bodanzky-Wa...-York-January-2-1937-Kirsten-Fl-/400654577344
> 
> And here are the labels on which it can be found: http://members.tip.net.au/~jgbrown/Tristan/discography/content/1937ny.htm


Thanks for finding that duck, the CD price is insane.....but the first link is free streaming to Amazon Prime members! Yesssssssssssss 

(Conte is on it!)

*Amazon strikes again.....
*It was too good to be true, I started listening to the Tristan free Amazon audio stream in the 37 Bodanzky link duck found......wow this sounds really good for a 37 recording, then looked closer and saw once again amazon had wrong recording linked to that CD listing, the sound is actually from 50 Knap Tristan (Helena braun and Gunther treptow)

At least I have found the liebestod from 37 bodanzky Tristan youtube audio:
(powerful conducting by Bodanzky, Flagstad is great, 4:38 estatic climax soars)


----------



## DarkAngel

gellio said:


> Let's talk about the ring, let's talk about the ring, let's talk about the ring!


Did you complete your homework assignment and get the 58 Knap Ring............


----------



## gellio

DarkAngel said:


> Did you complete your homework assignment and get the 58 Knap Ring............


I most certainly did. I like the '57 better, but the Boulez '77 is really something.


----------



## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> Thanks for finding that duck, the CD price is insane.....but the first link is free streaming to Amazon Prime members! Yesssssssssssss
> 
> (Conte is on it!)
> 
> *Amazon strikes again.....
> *It was too good to be true, I started listening to the Tristan free Amazon audio stream in the 37 Bodanzky link duck found......wow this sounds really good for a 37 recording, then looked closer and saw once again amazon had wrong recording linked to that CD listing, the sound is actually from 50 Knap Tristan (Helena braun and Gunther treptow)
> 
> At least I have found the liebestod from 37 bodanzky Tristan youtube audio:
> (powerful conducting by Bodanzky, Flagstad is great, 4:38 estatic climax soars)


That Braun/Treptow/Knappertsbusch _Tristan_ you mention is actually a fine performance of the opera. I recommend it.


----------



## Barbebleu

Woodduck said:


> My secret source is a used copy I found for $2.50 at a local library, along with the Vienna "two Kundrys" _Parsifal_ under Karajan for $1.50. My kinda prices! The _Tristan_ is on a label known as "The 40s Label," about which I can find no information at all, except that this claims to be a "new remastering with Cedar sound system." The performance is available on other labels, but although it's listed on Amazon, no search of the site will bring it up. I Googled it and came up with:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Flagstad-Melchior-Thorborg-Bodanzky/dp/B000EHJN5W
> 
> It's also here: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wagner-Flagstad-Melchior-Thorborg-Bodanzky/dp/B000EHJN5W
> 
> ]


And here. https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B002LC2LY8?ie=UTF8&ref_=ntt_mus_dp_dpt_5


----------



## Itullian

Cheap way to get the classic Kempe Meistersinger.


----------



## gardibolt

Listening to the Szell 1942 Tannhäuser with Melchior and Traubel from Immortal Performances. Quite extraordinary. I wish the sound quality were better, but still a knockover performance (as is just about anything with Melchior--and Traubel is so evocative in Act III it makes you want to cry).


----------



## DarkAngel

Amazon USA will soon have some of the classic recordings discussed here for sale in even newer Warner packaging, however close inspection of back indicates no new remaster, I would rather have the old EMI version with better booklet etc, more missed opportunities


----------



## The Conte

DarkAngel said:


> Amazon USA will soon have some of the classic recordings discussed here for sale in even newer Warner packaging, however close inspection of back indicates no new remaster, I would rather have the old EMI version with better booklet etc, more missed opportunities


Yes, I noticed this too and am glad that we have the EMI versions of the sets that we want. I am hoping that they will bring out Boccanegra and Don Carlo with Gobbi in in this series as we don't have the latest EMI transfers of those.

Dark Angel, do you have the Warner Schwarzkopf recitals set? What does the booklet say about the remasterings of those?

Warner have done a great job with Callas, now they need to look at the other greats they have inherited (Gobbi, Schwarzkopf, de los Angeles, Corelli etc.)

N.


----------



## DarkAngel

> Dark Angel, do you have the Warner Schwarzkopf recitals set? What does the booklet say about the remasterings of those?


Don't have it but since it is also a Warner label boxset I suspect no new remasters,,,,,,,,,Sony RCA are doing remasters like the recent Anna Moffo recital boxset


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Amazon USA will soon have some of the classic recordings discussed here for sale in even newer Warner packaging, however close inspection of back indicates no new remaster, I would rather have the old EMI version with better booklet etc, more missed opportunities


New issue Lohengrin on 2 cds? interesting if true


----------



## howlingfantods

Itullian said:


> New issue Lohengrin on 2 cds? interesting if true


I'm sure that's a misprint--it's around 215 minutes, impossible on 2 cds.


----------



## Barbebleu

howlingfantods said:


> I'm sure that's a misprint--it's around 215 minutes, impossible on 2 cds.


2cds? In their dreams unless they missed an act!? Yep. It's got to be a minimum of 3 and more likely 4 depending on where they have the breaks. Anyway, surely we all have got this classic recording in one of its many earlier incarnations. I can't think that they could improve it that much to warrant purchasing it yet again. If necessary I'll go back to my vinyl copy!


----------



## interestedin

DarkAngel said:


> I have the 38 Bodanzky MET (from MET Wagner boxset) and 36 Reiner ROH (naxos) and 37 Beecham ROH (Andromeda) on cheap Cds......but I now think the best I have heard is a direct stream of 41 Leinsdorf from MET (Spotify, Amazon Prime), available on CD but expensive!


Darkangel

Do you own those Cd's? If yes could you tell me which one's the best version of the 1941 Leinsdorf Tristan?

Just listened to some excerpts on Itunes and I'm starting to think I might kill for that recording...


----------



## DarkAngel

interestedin said:


> Darkangel
> 
> Do you own those Cd's? If yes could you tell me which one's the best version of the 1941 Leinsdorf Tristan?
> 
> Just listened to some excerpts on Itunes and I'm starting to think I might kill for that recording...


No CD version for me because of high cost for those shown, for now I must be content to visit Spotify for listen.


----------



## DarkAngel

> Do you own those Cd's? If yes could you tell me which one's the best version of the 1941 Leinsdorf Tristan?
> 
> Just listened to some excerpts on Itunes and I'm starting to think I might kill for that recording...





DarkAngel said:


> No CD version for me because of high cost for those shown, for now I must be content to visit Spotify for listen.


My favorite Tristan for now is the 52 Karajan Bayreuth with Modl & Vinay......latest Wahall remaster has very good sound compared to previous releases, thrilling intense performance (Hans Hotter is Kurwenal)


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> No CD version for me because of high cost for those shown, for now I must be content to visit Spotify for listen.


Hi DA. Amazon uk marketplace have the '41 Met for about $10. They might do US delivery.


----------



## howlingfantods

interestedin said:


> Darkangel
> 
> Do you own those Cd's? If yes could you tell me which one's the best version of the 1941 Leinsdorf Tristan?
> 
> Just listened to some excerpts on Itunes and I'm starting to think I might kill for that recording...


I have the Gebahardt. The sound is patchy with some notable tape flaws at times, but the overall recording has presence and depth and isn't nearly as boxy as the other prewar performances I've got from the Met. Terrific performance--Leinsdorf draws more from the pair than I think Beecham or Reiner were able to.


----------



## interestedin

howlingfantods said:


> I have the Gebahardt. The sound is patchy with some notable tape flaws at times, but the overall recording has presence and depth and isn't nearly as boxy as the other prewar performances I've got from the Met. Terrific performance--Leinsdorf draws more from the pair than I think Beecham or Reiner were able to.


Thank you for the information!

Couldn't find the Gebhardt anywhere anyway so….Amazon just received 14 € and the Walhall will join my collection tomorrow


----------



## interestedin

And while we're on it (and I hope this is the right thread)  :

Does anyone have the *2013* Immortalperformances Bodanzky Siegfried from 1937?

http://immortalperformances.org/product.php?p=2106#

I just saw this exists and I only have the old Naxos of 2002.

Did anyone ever compare the sound of the 2 versions?


----------



## DarkAngel

interestedin said:


> And while we're on it (and I hope this is the right thread)  :
> 
> Does anyone have the *2013* Immortalperformances Bodanzky Siegfried from 1937?
> 
> http://immortalperformances.org/product.php?p=2106#
> 
> I just saw this exists and I only have the old Naxos of 2002.
> 
> Did anyone ever compare the sound of the 2 versions?


Gardibolt here has the "immortal performances" dream Ring, I used to have it but ended up selling it on Amazon. For me the Naxos versions are nearly as good sounding and much cheaper......the guy at Immortal Performances has done remasters for Naxos in the past. Naxos has a MET Ring boxset for $30 that duplicates some of the IP Dream Ring but not composite collection of several performances like IP



















As to whether the new IP dream ring is noticeably better sounding than the older "guild label" releases can't say since I don't own any guild label CDs, Caniell makes it sound like a big improvement........

If you need any info about Pristine XR rematers I have all the Wagner and Callas releases......


----------



## interestedin

Thank you very much, DarkAngel!

Did I understand this correctly: You had the new 2012/13 Dream ring which you were comparing to the nearly as good sounding Naxos? And not that 2003 (?) version?

All Wagner and Callas Pristines!?  Did you sell a kidney for that? I own 4 insanely expensive Pristine Downloads and I still can't really make up my mind about whther I've been ripped off or whether they are real improvements over previous versions. It almost depends on the day I listen to them...


----------



## DarkAngel

interestedin said:


> Thank you very much, DarkAngel!
> 
> Did I understand this correctly: You had the new 2012/13 Dream ring which you were comparing to the nearly as good sounding Naxos? And not that 2003 (?) version?


Yes just a few months ago I had newest IP Dream Ring and didn't feel it sounded much better than the Naxos versions in the cheap Naxos boxset.........the packaging and booklets are very nice for IP 
*
I am huge Pristine XR fan *as is Gardibolt, HFT and others. I have very nice computer & main home stereo system and the sound improvement is very great, every other CD version I have heard is easily surpassed in all respects. We are especially impressed with older recordings like 50 Furtwangler Ring, it is almost like black magic how superior the sound is to any previous version, amazing really.....

Even Itullian will back me up on this........

This latest Pristine XR release is a stunner, I have never heard a 1940 performance sound even close to this good on any label.


----------



## gardibolt

Historic Wagner fans should check Pristine for a new offering coming out later this week that came from the same trove as that Leinsdorf Walküre. Lauritz Melchior, he's our man, if he can't sing it, no one can!


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> Historic Wagner fans should check Pristine for a new offering coming out later this week that came from the same trove as that Leinsdorf Walküre. Lauritz Melchior, he's our man, if he can't sing it, no one can!


no hints for the faithful?


----------



## DarkAngel

We need to find a way to get the 51 MET Steidry Ring for a reasonable price......

Notice the split roles with both Hotter and Franz as Wotan/Wanderer and Flagstad and Traubel as Brunnhilde........


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> We need to find a way to get the 51 MET Steidry Ring for a reasonable price......
> 
> Notice the split roles with both Hotter and Franz as Wotan/Wanderer and Flagstad and Traubel as Brunnhilde........


Now you're talking!!!


----------



## howlingfantods

DarkAngel said:


> We need to find a way to get the 51 MET Steidry Ring for a reasonable price......
> 
> Notice the split roles with both Hotter and Franz as Wotan/Wanderer and Flagstad and Traubel as Brunnhilde........


I found it a pretty disappointing purchase, very scrappy sound. What little I can hear of the orchestra sounds indifferently played. Stiedry doesn't strike me as anything more than workmanlike.


----------



## Itullian

howlingfantods said:


> I found it a pretty disappointing purchase, very scrappy sound. What little I can hear of the orchestra sounds indifferently played. Stiedry doesn't strike me as anything more than workmanlike.


I have Rheingold and love it,


----------



## silentio

Hi DarkAngel and other Wagnerites,

I am very curious about the "Potted Ring", as released by Pristine:

https://www.pristineclassical.com/pottedring.html

What do you think about this set? A big fan of Leider and Schorr, I am very tempted after seeing a large portion of Die Walkure involved them. (https://www.pristineclassical.com/paco107.html)

Too bad she was not in Siegfried. Anyone know where is this _"Ewig war ich"_ from?






_The trills!!!_


----------



## DarkAngel

silentio said:


> Hi DarkAngel and other Wagnerites,
> 
> I am very curious about the "Potted Ring", as released by Pristine:
> 
> https://www.pristineclassical.com/pottedring.html
> 
> What do you think about this set? A big fan of Leider and Schorr, I am very tempted after seeing a large portion of Die Walkure involved them. (https://www.pristineclassical.com/paco107.html)
> 
> Too bad she was not in Siegfried. Anyone know where is this _"Ewig war ich"_ from?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _The trills!!!_


It is absolutely a must own for historical wagner fans, you won't believe how good they have made those studio recordings sound, I will copy a post recently made in "how many rings" thread with info:

*1926-1928 HMV Potted Ring (Pristine)
*An amazing collection of early "*studio Wagner recordings*" done just after the introduction of "electrical" recording processes/equipment (microphones, amplifiers etc) these sound really really great, you will never hear better sound quality recordings of these 1920s Wagner singers in prime voice, three volumes containing extended highlights of great scences and roles (not complete operas).....one of my best wagner investments!










The sound is a huge improvement over that youtube sample, you will be pleased......
Gardibolt has this set also.....


----------



## DarkAngel

howlingfantods said:


> I found it a pretty disappointing purchase, very scrappy sound. What little I can hear of the orchestra sounds indifferently played. Stiedry doesn't strike me as anything more than workmanlike.


Too bad about the 51 Ring sound, I have a couple other MET Stiedry recordings from mid 1950s including this recent Walhall Eternity which has very good sound and performance, a worthy addition....


----------



## gardibolt

DarkAngel said:


> no hints for the faithful?


Well Lauritz Melchior was a hint.  This is what Andrew Rose told me should be coming out from Pristine this week: "Tannhäuser - Leinsdorf, Melchior et al, Met 1941. Sounding fabulous - same source as the previous Leinsdorf..."

I have a 1942 Tannhauser with Melchior under Szell but not this one. If it's comparable to that Walküre in sound quality, it's a must.


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> Well Lauritz Melchior was a hint.  This is what Andrew Rose told me should be coming out from Pristine this week: "*Tannhäuser - Leinsdorf, Melchior et al, Met 1941*. Sounding fabulous - same source as the previous Leinsdorf..."
> 
> I have a 1942 Tannhauser with Melchior under Szell but not this one. If it's comparable to that Walküre in sound quality, it's a must.


Must be this Jan 1941 Leinsdorf MET with Melchior and Flagstad........the Myto sound is not that good, but I have faith in Andrew Rose working another sonic miracle here


----------



## gardibolt

Presumably that's the one. There were five performances of Tannhäuser by the Met in 1941, and that was the only one that was broadcast. Here's the review of that performance:



> Review signed "K" in Musical America
> 
> The first "Tannhäuser" of the season was given at the Saturday matinee on Jan. 4, with singers in the leading roles whose impersonations were all familiar from other years. This was a singularly well-knit performance with the singers all doing their best. Mr. Melchior got off to a poor start, but improved as the opera progressed and sang the "Romerzählung" with dramatic sincerity and excellent tone. Wolfram is Mr. Janssen's most striking role and he made much of it from both angles. His singing of "The Evening Star" was a beautiful piece of lyric vocalization. Mr. List made a dignified and sonorous Landgraf.
> 
> On the distaff side, Mme. Flagstad carried the honors. Her "Dich, Teure Halle" has always been a masterpiece, and the dramatic scene at the close of the act seems to have gained in poignancy. The "Prayer" was also very fine. Mme. Thorborg sang Venus's music in her best style which is very good indeed, but this rôle is more effective when sung by a soprano with a good low register. The lesser roles were capably filled.
> 
> Mr. Leinsdorf conducted splendidly. The single exception which one might make is his continuing to take the March in the tempo of a gallop, a precedent established by the late Mr. Bodanzky, which is confusing to both eye and ear.


----------



## DarkAngel

^^^^^ very good description of performance in this fabulous book "Saturday afternoons at the Met" one of only 3 performances by Flagstad at MET in 1941 before going back to Norway during war. High praise for Melchior & Thorborg spirited exchange in Venusburg, copious praise also for Flagstad's Elisabeth portrayal vocally capturing the subtle emotional nuances, overall this is a great performance we must own especially in Pristine XR sound.....


----------



## interestedin

DarkAngel said:


> ^^^^^ very good description of performance in this fabulous book "Saturday afternoons at the Met" one of only 3 performances by Flagstad at MET in 1941 before going back to Norway during war.


I think Flagstad did sing more often at the MET that year. If we are to believe this long, long list she sang several Isoldes, Brünnhildes, Leonores, Kundrys, Elsa, Elisabeth and Sieglinde in those three months, not to mention concerts elsewhere:

http://www.kirsten-flagstad.no/Portals/77/Dokumenter/Kirsten Flagstad forestillinger.pdf


----------



## DarkAngel

^^^^ yes you right about all other performances, the book only refers to MET radio "broadcasts" and only lists 3 for Flagstad in 1941

1/4/1941 - Tannhauser
2/8/1941 - Tristan & Isolde
2/22/1941 - Fidelio

Pristine XR has excellent remaster of the Fidelio.......


----------



## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


>


Great portrait of Flagstad. As Isolde, Yes?

When I first spotted the words at the bottom of the photo, I thought it said "Kirsten Flagstad amused." I thought, "She does not look amused."


----------



## interestedin

Woodduck said:


> Great portrait of Flagstad. As Isolde, Yes?


A young Elisabeth.


----------



## DarkAngel

^^^^^ Yes the pix is Flagstad as Elisabeth from Tannhauser, but a few years earlier than the 41 Leinsdorf recording


----------



## Bill H.

This clip is always fascinating for me, even with the hokey setting, it's one that allows us to get a sense of her stage presence at that time, up close via the film camera:


----------



## Woodduck

Bill H. said:


> This clip is always fascinating for me, even with the hokey setting, it's one that allows us to get a sense of her stage presence at that time, up close via the film camera:


Always a delight, every time I watch it. And to think that it's the only existing footage of her singing. Too bad she didn't live on and make movies like Traubel and Melchior.


----------



## DarkAngel

Woodduck said:


> Always a delight, every time I watch it. And to think that it's the only existing footage of her singing. Too bad she didn't live on and make movies like Traubel and Melchior.


Nice clip of the Hollywood starlet Flagstad.......

*Ho jo to ho.......* do these words actually mean anything or just vocal abstractions to have a vocal line with music? (Duck will know the answer)


----------



## Barbebleu

Surely just vocal abstractions or rallying cries at best as in tally-ho or yahoo!


----------



## gardibolt

The 1941 Tannhäuser at Pristine Classical discussed last page is available now.


----------



## Bill H.

Woodduck said:


> Always a delight, every time I watch it. And to think that it's the only existing footage of her singing. Too bad she didn't live on and make movies like Traubel and Melchior.


It may have been that her attachment to her homeland was an impediment to having much exposure to Hollywood. 
Plus, there was some unfortunate blowback in the US after WWII to her decision to stay in Norway during the course of the conflict; Astrid Varnay's memoir mentions this as she defends her mentor and friend in it.


----------



## gardibolt

Listening to the 1976 Boulez Siegfried from Opera Depot; the brass in the forging song (Notung! Notung!) in Act I are really spectacular. In the course of listening to these many Rings over the last year or two this opera has gone from my least favorite leg of the Ring to my favorite. A good forging song is really something amazing.


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> The 1941 Tannhäuser at Pristine Classical discussed last page is available now.




It is the 1/4/1941 MET radio broadcast Tannhauser as we suspected, we should expect similar sound to recent Pristine XR 40 Walkure........in other words buy buy buy.........

This will be mine (eventually)


----------



## Bill H.

DarkAngel said:


> It is the 1/4/1941 MET radio broadcast Tannhauser as we suspected, we should expect similar sound to recent Pristine XR 40 Walkure........in other words buy buy buy.........
> 
> This will be mine (eventually)


The excerpt sounds pretty decent. 
My hope is that Pristine can do something with the Met 1936 Götterdämmerung with Melchior and Marjorie Lawrence. The sound in the Big Met Wagner box from Sony is nearly unlistenable--granted that performance might have been very close to the beginnings of the practice of doing transcriptions of Met broadcasts.


----------



## DarkAngel

Bill H. said:


> The excerpt sounds pretty decent.
> My hope is that Pristine can do something with the Met 1936 Götterdämmerung with Melchior and Marjorie Lawrence. The sound in the Big Met Wagner box from Sony is nearly unlistenable--granted that performance might have been very close to the beginnings of the practice of doing transcriptions of Met broadcasts.



















Bill the 40 Walkure in MET Sony boxset is the same performance as the recent Pristine XR remaster, huge improvement in sound with Pristine XR even though Sony had access to MET recording archives, amazing transformation.....


----------



## Itullian

Love this RING.............


----------



## The Conte

Itullian said:


> Love this RING.............


But is the sound better on the Pristine release? I have tried out the digital samples and I couldn't hear a significant difference.

N.


----------



## Itullian

The Conte said:


> But is the sound better on the Pristine release? I have tried out the digital samples and I couldn't hear a significant difference.
> 
> N.


I'm sure Pristine's sound is better. But I can afford this one and I'm happy with this.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Love this RING.............


Do you like it better than 50 Furtwangler Ring?

Does give you some singers that are not regulars on the 50s Bayreuth Rings, Ferdinand Frantz (wotan, wanderer) and Ludwig Suthaus (Siegfried)

I think Furtwangler liked Frantz since he was also used in 50 Ring same role


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Do you like it better than 50 Furtwangler Ring?
> 
> Does give you some singers that are not regulars on the 50s Bayreuth Rings, Ferdinand Frantz (wotan, wanderer) and Ludwig Suthaus (Siegfried)


Yes, I prefer the somewhat slower, grander, darker reading. I like the singers fine.
But I like the conducting best.


----------



## Itullian

Imagine if it was the Vienna Phil and in stereo.
MAN!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Jeffrey Smith

Itullian said:


> Love this RING.............


So do I. The EMI sound is good considering its date, the singing is outstanding, the orchestral mess ups not really noticeable.

I have a copy of the Scala Siegfried with horrible SQ...it sounds as if the tape recorder was placed amid the brass and woodwinds, and the singers can usually be heard only by putting an ear to the speakers (and sometimes not even then). I hope there are better masterings available (my copy may be from a pirate label) but I am scared to spend the money to find out.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Imagine if it was the Vienna Phil and in stereo.
> MAN!!!!!!!!!!!


Pristine XR ambient stereo for the studio 54 VPO Walkure........


----------



## DarkAngel

Jeffrey Smith said:


> I have a copy of the *Scala Siegfried with horrible SQ*...it sounds as if the tape recorder was placed amid the brass and woodwinds, and the singers can usually be heard only by putting an ear to the speakers (and sometimes not even then). I hope there are better masterings available (my copy may be from a pirate label) but I am scared to spend the money to find out.


JS the latest CD remaster by Archipel is much better sound quality than any previous commercial release, even better is the Pristine XR ambient stereo release...........


----------



## gardibolt

DarkAngel said:


> Pristine XR ambient stereo for the studio 54 VPO Walkure........


Just listened to that one. Really phenomenal sound on that in the Pristine rendition.


----------



## howlingfantods

DarkAngel said:


> JS the latest CD remaster by Archipel is much better sound quality than any previous commercial release, even better is the Pristine XR ambient stereo release...........


I haven't listened to the Archipel, but I can confirm that the Pristine remaster of the 1950 Scala performance is very listenable and quite a pleasure--it's easily my favorite version now and I listen to it more often than any other recording. I prefer the performance overall well ahead of the 1953 RAI and I prefer both far over the studio Walkure.


----------



## Admiral

Whew, I had a lot of catching up to do since I hadn't logged on since September. Just finishing the 1957 Rheingold right now.

I have to say, though, that the '55 stereo Testament cycle is still my favorite. I bought the Walker and Gotterdammerung scores and it boggles the mind that Varnay was singing live, so solid and controlled but not controlled in a studio way. Should be required listening for all those who think that the secret to Brunnhilde are the notes above the staff.


----------



## DarkAngel

Admiral said:


> Whew, I had a lot of catching up to do since I hadn't logged on since September. Just finishing the 1957 Rheingold right now.
> 
> I have to say, though, that the '55 stereo Testament cycle is still my favorite. I bought the Walker and Gotterdammerung scores and it boggles the mind that Varnay was singing live, so solid and controlled but not controlled in a studio way. Should be required listening for all those who think that the secret to Brunnhilde are the notes above the staff.


I needed your help at the other thread about "Favorite Siegfriend Brunhilde" where I tried to defend my beloved Astrid but was outnumbered by many critics here..........


----------



## Admiral

DarkAngel said:


> I needed your help at the other thread about "Favorite Siegfriend Brunhilde" where I tried to defend my beloved Astrid but was outnumbered by many critics here..........


I will avoid that thread for sure -

BTW - I'm listening now to a very fine-sounding 1955 Bayreuth Dutchman with Uhde and, yes, our Astrid. Cost $2 at my local record store - my first-ever listen to the Hollander (and conducted by Kna, no less)


----------



## DarkAngel

Admiral said:


> I will avoid that thread for sure -
> 
> BTW - I'm listening now to a very fine-sounding *1955 Bayreuth Dutchman with Uhde and, yes, our Astrid*. Cost $2 at my local record store - my first-ever listen to the Hollander (and conducted by Kna, no less)


There are two Dutchman with Uhde / Varnay from 1955, stereo Keilberth Testamant label (best sound) and the Knap......$2 is a steal, great buy


----------



## Admiral

My bank account can't handle the Testament. Took me many, many months to buy the Ring at prices I could handle. I do applaud the very high quality of their work.

But I'm a big, big fan of that 1955 stereo Ring, so maybe...


----------



## Admiral

Listening to the 1958 Siegfried. Windgassen in great voice but way off a lot of the time


----------



## Admiral

Looking at the Archipel Siegfried I see that the Gotterdammerung for that set is pricey: does anyone have a rec for the 1950 Furtwangler that is under, say $60, - if not, is the Archipel set the way to go?

I have bleeding chunks of the 1950 spread over 2 CDs in the Furtwangler Legacy box


----------



## gardibolt

I'd go with the Pristine for the 1950 Furtwängler if you can possibly swing it. It sounds so much better than any other rendition I've heard of it (though I don't know the Archipel specifically). Listen to the samples on their site.


----------



## Admiral

Any views on the Wagner at the Met compilation?

I have multiple Ring cycles, various Melchior LPs, so I'm looking mostly at whether there are some "must have" performances in there. Also, were these sourced from tapes or 78s and LPs? Any comments on sound quality are appreciated - for a frame of reference I'm good with mono sets like the 53 Krauss.


----------



## DarkAngel

Admiral said:


> Any views on the Wagner at the Met compilation?
> 
> I have multiple Ring cycles, various Melchior LPs, so I'm looking mostly at whether there are some "must have" performances in there. Also, were these sourced from tapes or 78s and LPs? Any comments on sound quality are appreciated - for a frame of reference I'm good with mono sets like the 53 Krauss.


Yes you need that MET boxset eventually especially with deluxe packaging, each opera inside has gatefold sleeve with photos, these are from 1936-52 (no Parsifal) they are all taken from MET radio broadcasts........a great companion is this excellent book of MET radio broadcasts











Another essential boxset is this one:










Contains 1-2 complete performances of each opera most from 1950s selected as being the best, then has companion discs of segments from older famous recordings of same opera from 1930-40s or older......almost like a research study of each opera, $46 new at Amazon USA sellers


----------



## Admiral

Thanks DA - it is difficult to glean from the product description on Wagner's Vision so that's very helpful.

I now have about 50 CDs up for consideration - might need to get them all!


----------



## gardibolt

Specifically on the Wagner at the Met box, I believe most of the recordings are off transcription discs, so discs but larger than 78s and LPs. My understanding is that the Met didn't make its own recordings until 1950, but I may be wrong on that. If that's correct, all the recordings before 1950 will be from discs. For the age of some of these (going back into the 1930s) the sound is pretty good but don't expect modern digital stereo sound.


----------



## DarkAngel

DarkAngel said:


> It is the 1/4/1941 MET radio broadcast Tannhauser as we suspected, we should expect similar sound to recent Pristine XR 40 Walkure........in other words buy buy buy.........
> 
> This will be mine (eventually)


Haven't pulled the trigger yet on new Pristine XR Tannhauser, waiting for a larger order before pushing buy button....

I did recently get this *54 Knap Parsifal from operadepot* during 60% sale, the sound quality on this is really excellent much better than typical operadepot....more like 57 Knap Walhall Ring sound quality, buy buy buy!

One unusual feature is Hotter as Amfortas, really suits him well very dramatic singing......plus your usual cast of Wagner icons during 54 Bayreuth season, this is hard to find in any other CD release


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> Haven't pulled the trigger yet on new Pristine XR Tannhauser, waiting for a larger order before pushing buy button....
> 
> I did recently get this *54 Knap Parsifal from operadepot* during 60% sale, the sound quality on this is really excellent much better than typical operadepot....more like 57 Knap Myto Ring sound quality, buy buy buy!
> 
> One unusual feature is Hotter as Amfortas, really suits him well very dramatic singing......plus your usual cast of Wagner icons during 54 Bayreuth season, this is hard to find in any other CD release


Wish someone, somewhere had the '55 Bayreuth Parsifal. It's the only fifties one I don't have.


----------



## howlingfantods

DarkAngel said:


> Haven't pulled the trigger yet on new Pristine XR Tannhauser, waiting for a larger order before pushing buy button....
> 
> I did recently get this *54 Knap Parsifal from operadepot* during 60% sale, the sound quality on this is really excellent much better than typical operadepot....more like 57 Knap Walhall Ring sound quality, buy buy buy!
> 
> One unusual feature is Hotter as Amfortas, really suits him well very dramatic singing......plus your usual cast of Wagner icons during 54 Bayreuth season, this is hard to find in any other CD release


It's available for 12 bucks for MP3 download from Amazon--the Archipel pressing, not sure how that compares to the OperaDepot. Fine recording, not in the upper tiers though, mostly because of Greindl, who is just too sinister for Gurnemanz. Hotter's Amfortas is very beautiful though, I think clearly better than his Gurnemanz--In fact, I purchased this recording just to hear Hotter's Amfortas since my guess was that the role would suit him better.


----------



## DarkAngel

howlingfantods said:


> It's available for 12 bucks for MP3 download from Amazon--the Archipel pressing, not sure how that compares to the OperaDepot. Fine recording, not in the upper tiers though, mostly because of Greindl, who is just too sinister for Gurnemanz. Hotter's Amfortas is very beautiful though, I think clearly better than his Gurnemanz--In fact, I purchased this recording just to hear Hotter's Amfortas since my guess was that the role would suit him better.


Speaking of sinister we have the iconic Gustav Neidlinger as Klingsor, the guy is so good with at rendering the emotionally dark characters of Alberich, Klingsor he would dominate these roles for next 10+ years at Bayreuth.

Also Wingassen makes his 2nd season appearance at Bayreuth a memorable one in very fresh voice, I really like Modl as Kundry in 54 and think they make a great pair here............










Yes Hotter is great as Amfortas........


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT

Barbebleu said:


> Wish someone, somewhere had the '55 Bayreuth Parsifal. It's the only fifties one I don't have.


There was apparently a recording made by the _Bayerischer Rundfunk_ (Bavarian Radio), but they haven't released it.


----------



## Barbebleu

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> There was apparently a recording made by the _Bayerischer Rundfunk_ (Bavarian Radio), but they haven't released it.


Perhaps I should send them a threatening letter, "making them an offer they can't refuse":devil:


----------



## cheftimmyr

Hello All, I just found this thread yesterday and have been slowly going through all the posts; I'm relatively new to Wagner (6months in) but am enthralled. Was hoping for some advice from Dark Angel and others on essential recordings of Ring Cycle, Tristan, Lohengrin, Parsifal, etc...

Dark Angel, are you getting the downloads from Pristine or ordering the CD's? Do you have a recommendation on format? Also, the Knapp '58 Walhall series on ImportCDS doesn't list Siegfried, did you have the same issue? (Gotterdemerung on back order). 

Basically looking for good solid choices to start with and expand from there... The options are vast, and I would love some input and help... 

Thank you!


----------



## The Conte

Hello Cheftimmyr,

here are my recommendations for the operas from Hollaender onwards. I have included what I consider to be the best studio version (with an emphasis on good, modern sound) and the essential historical live recording of each.

Hollaender:









Others here are better placed than I to advise on a historical recording.

Lohengrin:

The classic Kempe (absolutely essential):









However, fortunately there have been two _perfect_ studio recordings of Lohengrin and this second one not only has a superb all round cast, wonderfully poetic conducting by Abbado, but the sound is miraculous and all the chorus parts are heard in crystal clear detail.









This is my historic choice:









Tannhauser:

Difficult to choose an overall winner, but this is a good set:









N.

To be continued...


----------



## The Conte

Tannhauser historical set:









Der Ring:

My favourite (and with much better sound than the more famous Boehm or Solti sets):









But this is my absolute favourite Ring (Keilberth MUST have exchanged his soul with the devil to conduct Wagner like this) and the cast is slightly better overall than on his 1955 performances from Bayreuth in my opinion.









Meistersinger

My overall favourite (with superb sound):









Live recording (you will often see this one recommended here):









N.

Part 3 to follow...


----------



## The Conte

Tristan

Some will disagree with me here, but I think this is as exciting as Tristan gets:









Wonderfully dramatic live recording:









Parsifal

There have only been two singers who could do the part of Kundry justice in my opinion (Waltraud Meier and Martha Moedl). If you want a recording in good, clear, modern sound then you need one of the Meier sets and this is the best one with her in in my opinion:









This is a classic one with Martha Moedl:









'Best recordings' of operas is highly subjective and so you will find many here will advise you of other recordings of the operas. I have tried to give you the best choices for modern recordings in great sound as I think that is the best way to get to know the operas better. Once you have listened to more conductors and singers in Wagner you will have a better idea of what you like and can choose recordings with your favourite interpreters. There are a lot of aficionados of live and historic Wagner recordings on TC so I thought it a good idea to suggest a sample of those recordings as well.

You are starting out on a very long journey, enjoy your discovery of the great treasures that are the Wagner discography.

N.


----------



## DarkAngel

cheftimmyr said:


> Hello All, I just found this thread yesterday and have been slowly going through all the posts; I'm relatively new to Wagner (6months in) but am enthralled. Was hoping for some advice from Dark Angel and others on essential recordings of Ring Cycle, Tristan, Lohengrin, Parsifal, etc...
> 
> Dark Angel, are you getting the downloads from Pristine or ordering the CD's? Do you have a recommendation on format? Also, the Knapp '58 Walhall series on ImportCDS doesn't list Siegfried, did you have the same issue? (Gotterdemerung on back order).
> 
> Basically looking for good solid choices to start with and expand from there... The options are vast, and I would love some input and help...
> 
> Thank you!


Welcome brother, first I have all the Pristine XR wagner releases, I buy the recorded disc with no artwork and print it myself to save money......but these are very expensive historical live performances remastered and should wait till you have a basic wagner CD collection to build around.

Start buying cheap new or used iconic CD sets in very good sound to get a solid foundation built, there are many paths to follow from there, some great performances (live and historical) are not in best sound so save those for later exploration.....

Also music streaming services like Spotify Premium have massive Wagner music catalogs to explore before making any purchases, for some this maybe all you need......

Ring: Solti, Bohm, Keilberth (all very cheap boxsets now)

  

Parsifal-Knap, Tristan und Isolde-Bohm

 

(only 5 images per post)


----------



## cheftimmyr

Conte

Thanks so much for recommendations. I absolutely understand "best" is highly subjective and polarizing... Input is much appreciated. I have the Barenboim Parsifal, Kubelik Meistersinger, and Kempe Lohengrin you mentioned. I have not heard Domingo sing Wagner yet, have seen both camps (pro/anti), will definitely give a listen...

Thx again...


----------



## cheftimmyr

Thx DA. 

Will make all of these part of my growing collection. I found Solti Ring cycle for cheap on LP as well as Tristan Karajan on LP. CD-wise I also have the Furt. Tristan recording, my Ring cycle I first got was the Haitnik (good $) but I'm not sure what I think of it yet, hasn't blown me away. 

Will add these and keep listening... Thx for the help!


----------



## DarkAngel

Tannhauser-Sawallisch, Lohengrin-Kempe


----------



## DarkAngel

cheftimmyr said:


> Thx DA.
> 
> Will make all of these part of my growing collection. I found Solti Ring cycle for cheap on LP as well as Tristan Karajan on LP. CD-wise I also have the Furt. Tristan recording, my Ring cycle I first got was the Haitnik (good $) but I'm not sure what I think of it yet, hasn't blown me away.
> 
> Will add these and keep listening... Thx for the help!


If you need any specific opera recommends there are plenty of very knowledgeable members that will be glad to help......

We are good at spending others money........


----------



## gardibolt

^ So true. Since I started listening to DarkAngel I have spent a fortune on historic Wagner recordings.

But worth every penny of it. In the last week I've listened to three different historic Siegfrieds and found them all wonderful in different ways.

The one truly essential Pristine Wagner release to my mind is the 1950 Furtwängler La Scala Ring. It's been available cheaply forever from the LP days in absolutely dreadful sound quality, and Andrew Rose has worked wonders with this thing. It isn't cheap (I get the downloads), but if you order 10 items at once you get a 20% discount, which helps. The Pristine Krauss 1953 Ring is very good too, but the difference between that and other recent CD releases is less stark than the 1950 Furty.


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## cheftimmyr

^ I found the Furtwangler LP Ring (1950) set at a local shop for $8... The sound is definitely less than optimal though... Haven't been able to struggle through that version of the whole cycle yet...


----------



## Jeffrey Smith

Is this worth listening to?








My local used CD shop has it for $5.99, so price is no problem...but is it something I really want?


----------



## Barbebleu

Good inter-war cast, excellent conductor. If the recording quality is acceptable to your ears what's not to like. It looks as if it's not complete though if it's on 2 CDs. It's on YouTube if you want to try before you buy.


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## gardibolt

Barbebleu seems to be correct (in addition to the fact the complete opera could never fit on two CDs):

"An abridged version recorded in the Festspielhaus, but not at performances (see The Gramophone January 1959 p.390). According to David Hamilton «...the solos of Ivar Andresen, the Landgrave, are slotted in from studio recordings made in Berlin, though Andresem is clearly audible in the act 1 ensembles, I cannot detect his distinctive sound in act 2 except in those extraneously recorded solos» (The Opera Quarterly Vol.3 No.4 Winter 1985/86 p.86). These remarks only apply to the re-issue on LP by EMI-Electrola, where the Landgrave's «Gar viel und schön» was slotted in from an earlier recording by Andresen made with the Berlin State Opera Orchestra conducted by Fritz Zweig. The original 78s also contained «Ein furchtbares Verbrechen» (side 26) taken from an earlier recording (see THE OPERA QUARTERLY Vol.19 No.1 Winter 2003 p.82)"

http://www.operadis-opera-discography.org.uk/CLWATANN.HTM#2


----------



## interestedin

Thank Dark Angel or whoever it was who drew my attention to this.

Sometimes people say Wagner is about screaming..They should be forced to listen to Flagstad and Thorborg in this. I listened to act 1 again and again and now I am sure it is a very unusual cut version where they left out the curse. No one is cursing there!

Now I am thinking about Bodanzky:


----------



## Jeffrey Smith

gardibolt said:


> Barbebleu seems to be correct (in addition to the fact the complete opera could never fit on two CDs):
> 
> "An abridged version recorded in the Festspielhaus, but not at performances (see The Gramophone January 1959 p.390). According to David Hamilton «...the solos of Ivar Andresen, the Landgrave, are slotted in from studio recordings made in Berlin, though Andresem is clearly audible in the act 1 ensembles, I cannot detect his distinctive sound in act 2 except in those extraneously recorded solos» (The Opera Quarterly Vol.3 No.4 Winter 1985/86 p.86). These remarks only apply to the re-issue on LP by EMI-Electrola, where the Landgrave's «Gar viel und schön» was slotted in from an earlier recording by Andresen made with the Berlin State Opera Orchestra conducted by Fritz Zweig. The original 78s also contained «Ein furchtbares Verbrechen» (side 26) taken from an earlier recording (see THE OPERA QUARTERLY Vol.19 No.1 Winter 2003 p.82)"
> 
> http://www.operadis-opera-discography.org.uk/CLWATANN.HTM#2


Thanks for the replies.

Since it was an unsealed copy, I was able to read the note provided by Ward Marston, who did the Naxos mastering. He mentions that there were cuts, mostly in Acts 2 and 3, and the business about "Ein fuchtbares" being from a different recording ( he said the original source was unidentified), but makes no mention of the Landgrave being otherwise absent. He refers to the recording location as the "Wagner Theater" in Bayreuth-- is that just an alternative name for the Festspielhaus?

I probably will go back and get it for that price.


----------



## cheftimmyr

DA, so I'm at page 90 of this thread so far but pulled the trigger on quite a few recordings, per your recs and others who were kind enough to chime in...

Bohm Cycle (Decca)
Kleiberth 1952 Cycle (Myto)
Kempe 1960 Cycle (Myto)
Knap 1957 Cycle (Walhall)

Tristan, Bohm 1966
Parsifal Knap 1951 (ZYX)
Parsifal Knap 1962 (Phillips)
Hollander Sawallisch (Myto)
Tannhäuser Sawallisch 1961 (Myto)
Lohengrin; Thomas, Sawallisch (Decca)

I'm very excited to get into these recordings but have a bad feeling that this is going to get expensive; thanks for helping me spend my money! Still probably need to get 53 & 55 Keilberth; by that time I'll probably be on the brink of treading into the $$$ waters of PristineXR Furty and Krauss.... 

Thanks again for the help, and I continue to enjoy the ongoing commentary, suggestions and discoveries. 

T


----------



## howlingfantods

cheftimmyr said:


> DA, so I'm at page 90 of this thread so far but pulled the trigger on quite a few recordings, per your recs and others who were kind enough to chime in...
> 
> Bohm Cycle (Decca)
> Kleiberth 1952 Cycle (Myto)
> Kempe 1960 Cycle (Myto)
> Knap 1957 Cycle (Walhall)
> 
> Tristan, Bohm 1966
> Parsifal Knap 1951 (ZYX)
> Parsifal Knap 1962 (Phillips)
> Hollander Sawallisch (Myto)
> Tannhäuser Sawallisch 1961 (Myto)
> Lohengrin; Thomas, Sawallisch (Decca)
> 
> I'm very excited to get into these recordings but have a bad feeling that this is going to get expensive; thanks for helping me spend my money! Still probably need to get 53 & 55 Keilberth; by that time I'll probably be on the brink of treading into the $$$ waters of PristineXR Furty and Krauss....
> 
> Thanks again for the help, and I continue to enjoy the ongoing commentary, suggestions and discoveries.
> 
> T


My take is there's no reason to go from zero to a full collection immediately. Listen to the recordings you have many many times, and try to get a sense for what appeals to you. Especially with the Ring, 15 hours is a long time to listen intently to something. What you just acquired is a giant amount of music to grok, and you'd be missing out if you didn't take the time to do so.

But all that said, I couldn't help but notice that you're missing Meistersinger, one of Wagner's greatest achievements. I'd recommend the Kubelik for performance and sound.


----------



## Adair

Besides the Furtwangler and Kna recordings, which are immortal, there are great recordings by Keilberth, Robert Heger, and Beecham. Robert Heger's Tannhaeuser on Urania is especially lovely. The wonderful Beecham Tristan is hard to find in a truly complete version; the infamous EMI CD set is an erroneous splice of Beecham with a Reiner performance.


----------



## cheftimmyr

_"howling fantods: My take is there's no reason to go from zero to a full collection immediately. Listen to the recordings you have many many times, and try to get a sense for what appeals to you. Especially with the Ring, 15 hours is a long time to listen intently to something. What you just acquired is a giant amount of music to grok, and you'd be missing out if you didn't take the time to do so.

But all that said, I couldn't help but notice that you're missing Meistersinger, one of Wagner's greatest achievements. I'd recommend the Kubelik for performance and sound."_

Howling; Totally agree... My intention is to go through each work multiple times before I go to the next. I feel like this gives me a great library to draw from. I already had some Wagners in house before I placed that massive (for me) order... One of which is the Kubelik Meister... I've really enjoyed it. Also already have Furty Tristan (EMI) and Rodzinsky Tristan, Tannhauser (Decca, Solti), Haitink Ring, Hollander (Dorati), Barenboim Parsifal, and Kempe Lohengrin....

I felt like I was kind of groping in the dark for advice via Amazon and some professional reviews so finding this thread really has helped give me a framework to approach listening to Wagner in general. Not sure I'll be buying anything for a while, at least until I get through my current library a few more times!

Thx for advice


----------



## Adair

Heger on Urania. Fine recording.


----------



## DarkAngel

cheftimmyr said:


> DA, so I'm at page 90 of this thread so far but pulled the trigger on quite a few recordings, per your recs and others who were kind enough to chime in...
> 
> Bohm Cycle (Decca)
> Kleiberth 1952 Cycle (Myto)
> Kempe 1960 Cycle (Myto)
> Knap 1957 Cycle (Walhall)
> 
> Tristan, Bohm 1966
> Parsifal Knap 1951 (ZYX)
> Parsifal Knap 1962 (Phillips)
> Hollander Sawallisch (Myto)
> Tannhäuser Sawallisch 1961 (Myto)
> Lohengrin; Thomas, Sawallisch (Decca)
> 
> I'm very excited to get into these recordings but have a bad feeling that this is going to get expensive; thanks for helping me spend my money! Still probably need to get 53 & 55 Keilberth; by that time I'll probably be on the brink of treading into the $$$ waters of *PristineXR Furty and Krauss*....
> 
> Thanks again for the help, and I continue to enjoy the ongoing commentary, suggestions and discoveries.
> 
> T


That is a great motherlode of fabulous iconic wagner CD recordings, much to ponder and absorb.......most of those are great bargains now compared to several years ago, and sound is very good on latest remastered sets

When you are ready to make the sacred journey to castle montsalvat and hear the holy grail of wagner remastered recordings, the Pristine XR 53 Krauss and 50 Furtwangler Rings await..........


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## DarkAngel

interestedin said:


> View attachment 81273
> 
> 
> *Thank Dark Angel or whoever it was who drew my attention to this.*
> 
> Sometimes people say Wagner is about screaming..They should be forced to listen to Flagstad and Thorborg in this. I listened to act 1 again and again and now I am sure it is a very unusual cut version where they left out the curse. No one is cursing there!
> 
> Now I am thinking about Bodanzky:
> 
> View attachment 81275


Looks like you have purchased the 41 Leinsdorf - Tristan (with Flagstad) on Walhall label discussed in post 1719 here, I still do not have CD set but can hear it on Spotify Premium, a definite contender for best Flagstad - Tristan, stellar cast and good sound


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## Belowpar

DarkAngel said:


> We are good at spending others money........


That's one way of defining government.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

Belowpar said:


> That's one way of defining government.


The other definition being "We are bad at spending others' money"


----------



## Admiral

Back to historical Wagner recordings, my Archival 1950 Furtwangler Walkure and Siegfried have arrived and I'm quite pleased in the improvement in sound over my Italian-sourced 1950 Gotterdammerung. Respected members here praise the Pristine cycle but I'm standing pat with the Archipel at a great budget price. 

I also filled out my 1957 Walhall cycle with Siegfried.

I also scratched a longstanding itch by buying the Karajan Falstaff and the ROH Les Troyens DVD - both operas are new to me though I've owned the Les Troyens Davis LPs for years.


----------



## Jeffrey Smith

Jeffrey Smith said:


> Thanks for the replies.
> 
> Since it was an unsealed copy, I was able to read the note provided by Ward Marston, who did the Naxos mastering. He mentions that there were cuts, mostly in Acts 2 and 3, and the business about "Ein fuchtbares" being from a different recording ( he said the original source was unidentified), but makes no mention of the Landgrave being otherwise absent. He refers to the recording location as the "Wagner Theater" in Bayreuth-- is that just an alternative name for the Festspielhaus?
> 
> I probably will go back and get it for that price.


Follow up: I did go back and get it this afternoon.


----------



## DarkAngel

Admiral said:


> Back to historical Wagner recordings, my Archival 1950 Furtwangler Walkure and Siegfried have arrived and I'm quite pleased in the improvement in sound over my Italian-sourced 1950 Gotterdammerung. Respected members here praise the Pristine cycle but *I'm standing pat with the Archipel at a great budget price.
> *
> I also filled out my 1957 Walhall cycle with Siegfried.
> 
> I also scratched a longstanding itch by buying the Karajan Falstaff and the ROH Les Troyens DVD - both operas are new to me though I've owned the Les Troyens Davis LPs for years.


The latest Archipel CDs of 50 Furtwangler Ring are the best sounding commercial set, even better than the Music & Arts boxset, but not sold as a set and prices vary for each opera.....still the improved sound will only make you wonder what if this magnificent Ring could sound even better, the quest for wagner glory still burns inside you

If you are ready for the ultimate wagner experience I have both Archipel and Pristine XR (ambient stereo) CDs and there is a real improvement in sound for the more expensive Pristine XR, only you can judge if it is worth the extra cost 

What prices does one pay to hear Flagstad & Svanholm perform the RING in best possible sound with Furtwangler uncovering a wealth of emotional detail in every passage, ha ha


----------



## DarkAngel

I have opened the treasure vaults and have pushed the buy button a few historic wagner operas to arrive soon, three of these from Norbeck Peters & Ford website sale priced......and latest Pristine XR:

41 Tannhauser - Melchior, Flagstad, Thorberg
54 Tannhauser - Vinay, Harshaw, Varnay
46 Walkure - Melchior, Varnay, Traubel
50 Tristan Isolde - Vinay, Traubel


----------



## Adair

DarkAngel said:


> I have opened the treasure vaults and have pushed the buy button a few historic wagner operas to arrive soon, three of these from Norbeck Peters & Ford website sale priced......and latest Pristine XR:
> 
> 41 Tannhauser - Melchior, Flagstad, Thorberg
> 54 Tannhauser - Vinay, Harshaw, Varnay
> 46 Walkure - Melchior, Varnay, Traubel
> 50 Tristan Isolde - Vinay, Traubel


I love of the presence of Thorborg in some of these recordings. What a great singer.


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## DarkAngel

^^^ 1940s MET had an immortal stable of iconic wagner singers, we fortunately have some decent sounding CD sets that capture those halcyon days

 Kerstin Thorborg


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## Pugg

In case someone don't receive the mails from Opera Depot.

50% off all Wagner Rings.:tiphat:

http://operadepot.com/collections/der-ring-des-nibelungen?mc_cid=61ef8c192a&mc_eid=3bd6df4900


----------



## Barbebleu

Pugg said:


> In case someone don't receive the mails from Opera Depot.
> 
> 50% off all Wagner Rings.:tiphat
> 
> http://operadepot.com/collections/der-ring-des-nibelungen?mc_cid=61ef8c192a&mc_eid=3bd6df4900


Plus the 1974 Bayreuth Ring - the year of the three Brunnhildes!

In mono but the samples sound o.k. And the downloads tend to sound better than the samples.


----------



## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> Plus the 1974 Bayreuth Ring - the year of the three Brunnhildes!
> 
> In mono but the samples sound o.k. And the downloads tend to sound better than the samples.


I said I was all "ringed out" with operadepot, but I couldn't help but check the website again to see if I was missing something. Barbie mentions the 3 Brunnhildes of 74 Ring, there are 3 also for 73 Ring including my favorite less famous Brunnie in C*atarina Ligendza

*Also get Gwyneth Jones as Sieglinde with very good sound, this may be another purchase for me........

Interesting that Gustav Niedlinger still 20+ years later singing Alberich at Bayreuth, that is a wagner legend to admire!










 Caterina Ligendza


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> I said I was all "ringed out" with operadepot, but I couldn't help but check the website again to see if I was missing something. Barbie mentions the 3 Brunnhildes of 74 Ring, there are 3 also for 73 Ring including my favorite less famous Brunnie in C*atarina Ligendza
> 
> *Also get Gwyneth Jones as Sieglinde with very good sound, this may be another purchase for me........
> 
> Interesting that Gustav Niedlinger still 20+ years later singing Alberich at Bayreuth, that is a wagner legend to admire!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Caterina Ligendza


I'd forgotten that there were three Brunnhildes in '73 and I've got this set!! In my defence I haven't got round to listening to it yet. I fear I'll have to grab the '74 at the knockdown price.


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> I said I was all "ringed out" with operadepot, but I couldn't help but check the website again to see if I was missing something. Barbie mentions the 3 Brunnhildes of 74 Ring, there are 3 also for 73 Ring including my favorite less famous Brunnie in C*atarina Ligendza
> 
> *Also get Gwyneth Jones as Sieglinde with very good sound, this may be another purchase for me........
> 
> Interesting that Gustav Niedlinger still 20+ years later singing Alberich at Bayreuth, that is a wagner legend to admire!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Caterina Ligendza


I knew I couldn't hold out so I downloaded the '74 Ring! Ah well, on the list of things to listen to it goes.


----------



## gardibolt

Yeah, I'm afraid I'll have to do the same, bringing me to 26 Rings....but at least I've now caught up and listened to all 25 I have.


----------



## DarkAngel

DarkAngel said:


> I said I was all "ringed out" with operadepot, but I couldn't help but check the website again to see if I was missing something. Barbie mentions the 3 Brunnhildes of 74 Ring, there are 3 also for 73 Ring including my favorite less famous Brunnie in *Catarina Ligendza
> 
> *Also get Gwyneth Jones as Sieglinde with very good sound, this may be another purchase for me........


Another reason to get 73 Ring for me is to hear Brunnhilde of Schröder-Feinen (unknown to me) as one of three Brunnies used.


----------



## Jeffrey Smith

Currently at the end of Act I. This mastering was done by Ward Marston, and in his hands the audio is well served: sounds more like a recording from 1948, say, than 1930. Singing and orchestra are Bayreuthlich so far.

Major flaw are the cuts to Act II and Act III, including the whole of Act II Scene 2. I suspect anyone with an interest in postwar Bayreuth will be interested in this recording.

ETA: oops moment. Maria Muller's voice gets shrilled to bits at the end of "dich teurer Halle". This seems to be the fault of the recording, not Muller. Hoping this does not happen during her later appearances.

Final update: the final chorus also shrills out. Other shrilly moments along the way, but they are relatively minor. 
And a rather bizarre cut in Act III: Wolfram's song to the Evening Star leads directly and abruptly into " Imbrust in Herzen".

But my favorable opinion stands.


----------



## cheftimmyr

DA and others, I came across the Wagners Vision set locally for what looks to be a really good price ($39); given I have just amassed quite a few wagner recordings recently, should I be jumping at the chance to get this set also? I haven't seen much feedback as to sound quality etc and I'm trying to weigh out if I should bite the bullet or keep saving for Keilberth Testament '55 and also the 53 cycle I don't have.... Would appreciate feedback!


----------



## DarkAngel

cheftimmyr said:


> DA and others, I came across the Wagners Vision set locally for what looks to be a really good price ($39); given I have just amassed quite a few wagner recordings recently, should I be jumping at the chance to get this set also? I haven't seen much feedback as to sound quality etc and I'm trying to weigh out if I should bite the bullet or keep saving for Keilberth Testament '55 and also the 53 cycle I don't have.... Would appreciate feedback!












Contains 1-2 complete performances of each opera most from 1950s selected as being the best, then has companion discs of segments from older famous recordings of same opera from 1930-40s or older......almost like a research study of each opera, $46 new at Amazon USA sellers

To answer your question very good sound for the 50s operas, without doubt buy buy buy..........


----------



## cheftimmyr

DA

Thanks! The only options on Amazon (US) I'm seeing are $75 Prime, and $49-$200+ used/new.... I'll probably swing by and pick it up... I'm not completely surprised your recommendation was to buy! :lol:


----------



## cheftimmyr

DA, went back today and picked it up... It had been further marked down so I scored the whole set for $29!!! Pretty stoked!


----------



## DarkAngel

cheftimmyr said:


> DA, went back today and picked it up... It had been further marked down so I scored the whole set for $29!!! Pretty stoked!


That's a steal of a deal, be careful you will be tempted to buy much more ha ha.....


----------



## cheftimmyr

That's what I'm afraid of, DA...


----------



## Barbebleu

cheftimmyr said:


> DA, went back today and picked it up... It had been further marked down so I scored the whole set for $29!!! Pretty stoked!


There is no better feeling in the world when you pick up an absolute steal!:lol:


----------



## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> That is a great motherlode of fabulous iconic wagner CD recordings, much to ponder and absorb.......most of those are great bargains now compared to several years ago, and sound is very good on latest remastered sets
> 
> When you are ready to make the sacred journey to castle montsalvat and hear the holy grail of wagner remastered recordings, the Pristine XR 53 Krauss and 50 Furtwangler Rings await..........


DA,

I've been able to listen to the '66 Bohm Tristan a few times now... the sound is much better than I was expecting; gorgeous. I'll be interested to hear if this is the "norm" or if I started on the better end, quality wise, for older historical recordings. I was also surprised how present the orchestra was, given that I've read much about Bayreuth recordings having a somewhat (for lack of a better expression) restrained orchestral sound, with the vocals being out front. Having read the booklet that came with the set, I think they did some special mic placements to record it, if I remember correctly. I also appreciated the difference between Bohm and Furtwangler, which is the only other Tristan I've heard up to this point. Nilsson, Windgassen and Ludwig all sounded top notch to me, but I'm working from a limited base of listening so I look forward to hearing others... (Varnay does a good job?)

Most of all, I've come away every time feeling as though I've heard some of the most beautiful music that could ever have been written in the history of mankind...

Thanks for the rec! I'm hooked..... :cheers:


----------



## Barbebleu

cheftimmyr said:


> DA,
> 
> I've been able to listen to the '66 Bohm Tristan a few times now... the sound is much better than I was expecting; gorgeous. I'll be interested to hear if this is the "norm" or if I started on the better end, quality wise, for older historical recordings. I was also surprised how present the orchestra was, given that I've read much about Bayreuth recordings having a somewhat (for lack of a better expression) restrained orchestral sound, with the vocals being out front. Having read the booklet that came with the set, I think they did some special mic placements to record it, if I remember correctly. I also appreciated the difference between Bohm and Furtwangler, which is the only other Tristan I've heard up to this point. Nilsson, Windgassen and Ludwig all sounded top notch to me, but I'm working from a limited base of listening so I look forward to hearing others... (Varnay does a good job?)
> 
> Most of all, I've come away every time feeling as though I've heard some of the most beautiful music that could ever have been written in the history of mankind...
> 
> Thanks for the rec! I'm hooked..... :cheers:


I think you have to go further back by ten or twenty years to really be "historic" in terms of recording quality. Recording techniques were pretty solid by the time we get to the mid-sixties and the improvements in sound since then are nowhere near the quantum leap that took place from the forties to the late fifties. The '66 Bayreuth Tristan is just a great recording from that period and I'm not convinced that there is much out there, as far as live recordings go, to beat it sonically.


----------



## cheftimmyr

True point Barb, I didn't think of it that way but your point makes sense. I'm glad I have that recording in my collection now! Appreciate everyone's feed back...


----------



## Barbebleu

cheftimmyr said:


> True point Barb, I didn't think of it that way but your point makes sense. I'm glad I have that recording in my collection now! Appreciate everyone's feed back...


It was my third Tristan. Solti first, then Furtwangler then Bohm. It's still a favourite. Four years later in 1970 the Nilsson, Windgassen, Bohm dream team gave their last performance at Bayreuth.


----------



## Woodduck

cheftimmyr said:


> DA,
> 
> I've been able to listen to the '66 Bohm Tristan a few times now... the sound is much better than I was expecting; gorgeous. I'll be interested to hear if this is the "norm" or if I started on the better end, quality wise, for older historical recordings. I was also surprised how present the orchestra was, given that I've read much about Bayreuth recordings having a somewhat (for lack of a better expression) restrained orchestral sound, with the vocals being out front. Having read the booklet that came with the set, I think they did some special mic placements to record it, if I remember correctly. I also appreciated the difference between Bohm and Furtwangler, which is the only other Tristan I've heard up to this point. Nilsson, Windgassen and Ludwig all sounded top notch to me, but I'm working from a limited base of listening so I look forward to hearing others... (Varnay does a good job?)
> 
> Most of all, I've come away every time feeling as though I've heard some of the most beautiful music that could ever have been written in the history of mankind...
> 
> Thanks for the rec! I'm hooked..... :cheers:


The 1962 Bayreuth Parsifal under Knappertsbusch on Philips (with some more of the most beautiful music in the history of mankind!) is also a fine-sounding live recording which captures the Bayreuth acoustic impressively and has a nice balance between singers and orchestra.


----------



## cheftimmyr

Woodduck said:


> The 1962 Bayreuth Parsifal under Knappertsbusch on Philips (with some more of the most beautiful music in the history of mankind!) is also a fine-sounding live recording which captures the Bayreuth acoustic impressively and has a nice balance between singers and orchestra.


That's next on my list WD, and anticipation is building... trying to carve out some time ASAP for that... I don't want my first listening of it to be pieced together over a few days.

I just noticed the version I have is Decca label with 24bit remastering... Is this inferior to the Philips label mentioned above?


----------



## Woodduck

cheftimmyr said:


> That's next on my list WD, and anticipation is building... trying to carve out some time ASAP for that... I don't want my first listening of it to be pieced together over a few days.
> 
> I just noticed the version I have is Decca label with 24bit remastering... Is this inferior to the Philips label mentioned above?


Never heard it. You'll have to ask these folks who are buying everything in sight!


----------



## cheftimmyr

Woodduck said:


> Never heard it. You'll have to ask these folks who are buying everything in sight!


Has anyone compared the '62 Knappy Parsifal on Philips vs Decca? (The Decca I have says "24 bit remastering" if that helps...); I thought I had ordered the Philips since that is what I've seen recommended most, but apparently I ordered the Decca version.

Thx!


----------



## Jeffrey Smith

cheftimmyr said:


> Has anyone compared the '62 Knappy Parsifal on Philips vs Decca? (The Decca I have says "24 bit remastering" if that helps...); I thought I had ordered the Philips since that is what I've seen recommended most, but apparently I ordered the Decca version.
> 
> Thx!


They are the same, albeit one can hope the remastering improved the sonics. Universal Music Group can not use the Philips name so recordings made by Philips are now re-issued under the Decca logo, as are the recordings which were issued on London.

Just like you need to look for ci-devant Columbia recordings under Sony, and EMI under Warner.


----------



## cheftimmyr

Jeffrey, thanks for the info. (The cover looks identical save the word switch of "Philips" and "Decca, so glad they are the same recording).


----------



## DarkAngel

cheftimmyr said:


> DA,
> 
> I've been able to listen to the;* '66 Bohm Tristan a few times now... the sound is much better than I was expecting* gorgeous. I'll be interested to hear if this is the "norm" or if I started on the better end, quality wise, for older historical recordings. I was also surprised how present the orchestra was, given that I've read much about Bayreuth recordings having a somewhat (for lack of a better expression) restrained orchestral sound, with the vocals being out front. Having read the booklet that came with the set, I think they did some special mic placements to record it, if I remember correctly. I also appreciated the difference between Bohm and Furtwangler, which is the only other Tristan I've heard up to this point. Nilsson, Windgassen and Ludwig all sounded top notch to me, but I'm working from a limited base of listening so I look forward to hearing others... (Varnay does a good job?)
> 
> Most of all, I've come away every time feeling as though I've heard some of the most beautiful music that could ever have been written in the history of mankind...
> 
> Thanks for the rec! I'm hooked..... :cheers:


 

Both of these from 66-67 Bayreuth season in excellent live stereo sound like Barbie said, the Bohm Ring was originally a DG recording that ended up with Decca/Phillips, an essential purchase....don't get spoiled now, the great 50s Bayreuth mono Rings also sound amazing for their age and must be owned by serious wagner folk (like those that hang out here ha ha)

Nilsson is an iconic Isolde with a brilliant pure powerful voice, technically superb, her overall tone is brighter than Flagstad for instance, that Bohm Tristan is an essential purchase for any collection......a good contrast is 52 Karajan Bayreuth with Martha Modl as Isolde, a warm earthy tone that gives a different feel to the role, emotionally intense I think it is one of the very best Tristans


----------



## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> Both of these from 66-67 Bayreuth season in excellent live stereo sound like Barbie said, the Bohm Ring was originally a DG recording that ended up with Decca, an essential purchase....don't get spoiled now, the great 50s Bayreuth mono Rings also sound amazing for their age and must be owned by serious wagner folk (like those that hang out here ha ha)
> 
> Nilsson is an iconic Isolde with a brilliant pure powerful voice, technically superb, her overall tone is brighter than Flagstad for instance, that Bohm Tristan is an essential purchase for any collection......a good contrast is 52 Karajan Bayreuth with Martha Modl as Isolde, a warm earthy tone that gives a different feel to the role, emotionally intense I think it is one of the very best Tristans


DA, Juuuust when I thought I'd curb my purchasing for a while, you pull out 52 Karajan "Tristan"... I'll see about snagging it... I also thought you mentioned a Tristan with Astrod Varnay a while ago... What were your thoughts on that performance? Parsifal 62 and 51 are up next... Then diving into Ring cycles Bohm, Knap (57), Kempe (60), then Kleiberth (52) ... And I still need to get to Lohengrin and Tannhauser (Sawallisch).... Life's rough...


----------



## DarkAngel

cheftimmyr said:


> DA, Juuuust when I thought I'd curb my purchasing for a while, you pull out 52 Karajan "Tristan"... I'll see about snagging it... I also thought you mentioned a Tristan with Astrod Varnay a while ago... What were your thoughts on that performance? Parsifal 62 and 51 are up next... Then diving into Ring cycles Bohm, Knap (57), Kempe (60), then Kleiberth (52) ... And I still need to get to Lohengrin and Tannhauser (Sawallisch).... Life's rough...


Varnay has few Tristan recordings, none that I really like overall (and I am huge Varnay fan).......Modl above is the ticket. When money is no object then you get the Pristine XR 52 Furtwangler Tristan with Flagstad.......










The 62 Knap Parsifal is transcendental glorious journey, for many including me it is the reference recording, the perfect fool must take the journey to reveal the true nature and power of the grail to the knights of montsalvat......


----------



## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> Varnay has few Tristan recordings, none that I really like overall (and I am huge Varnay fan).......Modl above is the ticket. When money is no object then you get the Pristine XR 52 Furtwangler Tristan with Flagstad.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 62 Knap Parsifal is transcendental glorious journey, for many including me it is the reference recording, the perfect fool must take the journey to reveal the true nature and power of the grail to the knights of montsalvat......


Pristine stuff and Kleiberth (Testament) I'm saving and biding time on... Once I work through current library I'll be in a better position to justify the purchases; I'm eagerly anticipating being at that point ... I've been listening through Grado 325e headphones and really enjoying the sound quality... I haven't seen a dedicated audio gear forum discussing best playing and listening equipment/formats but I'm learning as I go... Might want to pick some peeps brains on that sometime, trying to maintain forum etiquette.


----------



## silentio

I have been curious about Marjorie Lawrence recently. I am truly impressed by her French Immolation Scene in _Les Introuvables Du Chant Wagnérien_. The voice itself is not as distinctive as Lubin's, Leider's or Flagstad's, but her youthfulness and commitment is admirable.

Any comments on these live performances?

*The 1936 Gotterdammerung
*





​
*The 1936 Parsifal*






​
*The 1940 Walkure (as Brunnhilde)*






​


----------



## DarkAngel

36 Gotterdammerung is in the Wagner at the MET boxset with Sony remaster, but I don't think it sounds much better than the Naxos edition you show, still a great boxset to own plus you get 40 Walkure you also want



By far the best sound of any available 40 Walkure with Lawrence is the recent Pristine XR, amazing sound transformation, extended sound sample available at Pristine website.....

https://www.pristineclassical.com/paco125.html


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## howlingfantods

cheftimmyr said:


> DA, Juuuust when I thought I'd curb my purchasing for a while, you pull out 52 Karajan "Tristan"... I'll see about snagging it... I also thought you mentioned a Tristan with Astrod Varnay a while ago... What were your thoughts on that performance? Parsifal 62 and 51 are up next... Then diving into Ring cycles Bohm, Knap (57), Kempe (60), then Kleiberth (52) ... And I still need to get to Lohengrin and Tannhauser (Sawallisch).... Life's rough...


The Karajan Tristan is quite good but many don't like Modl (myself included). You might try listening to excerpts on youtube before purchasing. That's actually pretty good advice for a lot of historic recordings, which are often fully complete on youtube and in pretty similar sound quality as you'd get on cd.

Not a great fan of the Kna 51 Parsifal, although the 62 is an all time great. I prefer the Kubelik, the Barenboim, and the Armin Jordan over the 51 Kna. Even for Kna recordings, I'd probably put the 1964 and maybe the 1954 over the 1951--the 1964 has a great Vickers performance in the title role, and Hotter's Gurnemanz in slightly better voice than in the 62. The 1954 has the only Hotter Amfortas that I'm aware of, and is worth hearing on that basis alone, although I'm not a fan of Greindl's Gurn.

The 1960 Kempe is another one I'd caution you against. The cast is pretty iffy--a poor Siegfried in Hans Hopf, a great Siegfried performer in Wolfgang Windgassen who unfortunately is singing the Seigmund instead, Uhde and Hines sort of gliding over the surfaces of the Wotan roles, and one of Varnay's worst outings as Brunnhilde. I'm not a great fan of Kempe for the Ring--his subtle restrained approach to Wagner which works so well for Meistersinger and Lohengrin can often just sound overly restrained and polite in the Ring. But if I had to choose a Kempe, I'd opt for the Covent Garden 1957 cycle with Hotter in good voice, Nilsson blazing and fresh throughout, and ideal casting of Vinay as Siegmund and Windgassen as Siegfried. You get to hear Sutherland as one of the Rheinmaidens too, if you're into that sort of thing.


----------



## cheftimmyr

howlingfantods said:


> The Karajan Tristan is quite good but many don't like Modl (myself included). You might try listening to excerpts on youtube before purchasing. That's actually pretty good advice for a lot of historic recordings, which are often fully complete on youtube and in pretty similar sound quality as you'd get on cd.
> 
> Not a great fan of the Kna 51 Parsifal, although the 62 is an all time great. I prefer the Kubelik, the Barenboim, and the Armin Jordan over the 51 Kna. Even for Kna recordings, I'd probably put the 1964 and maybe the 1954 over the 1951--the 1964 has a great Vickers performance in the title role, and Hotter's Gurnemanz in slightly better voice than in the 62. The 1954 has the only Hotter Amfortas that I'm aware of, and is worth hearing on that basis alone, although I'm not a fan of Greindl's Gurn.
> 
> The 1960 Kempe is another one I'd caution you against. The cast is pretty iffy--a poor Siegfried in Hans Hopf, a great Siegfried performer in Wolfgang Windgassen who unfortunately is singing the Seigmund instead, Uhde and Hines sort of gliding over the surfaces of the Wotan roles, and one of Varnay's worst outings as Brunnhilde. I'm not a great fan of Kempe for the Ring--his subtle restrained approach to Wagner which works so well for Meistersinger and Lohengrin can often just sound overly restrained and polite in the Ring. But if I had to choose a Kempe, I'd opt for the Covent Garden 1957 cycle with Hotter in good voice, Nilsson blazing and fresh throughout, and ideal casting of Vinay as Siegmund and Windgassen as Siegfried. You get to hear Sutherland as one of the Rheinmaidens too, if you're into that sort of thing.


Howl, thanks for the recommendations. I had heard some good comments about the Kempe (60) Ring and the 51 Parsifal... So you've added to my list of things to listen to! I look forward to finding my way as I rack up the listening hours!


----------



## gardibolt

I haven't heard the Testament version of the 1957 Kempe Covent Garden Ring, but the Walhall version has terrible audio (apparently the source is a poor-quality AM radio broadcast). Be very careful in checking this one out in advance before plunking down a lot for it. One of the few CD purchases I've made that I completely regretted. Usually Walhall has very good to terrific sound (the 1957 Knappertsbusch Ring, e.g.) but this one is just bad, and I'm pretty tolerant of historic recording sound quality. At least it wasn't too expensive.


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## howlingfantods

gardibolt said:


> I haven't heard the Testament version of the 1957 Kempe Covent Garden Ring, but the Walhall version has terrible audio (apparently the source is a poor-quality AM radio broadcast). Be very careful in checking this one out in advance before plunking down a lot for it. One of the few CD purchases I've made that I completely regretted. Usually Walhall has very good to terrific sound (the 1957 Knappertsbusch Ring, e.g.) but this one is just bad, and I'm pretty tolerant of historic recording sound quality. At least it wasn't too expensive.


I've heard that about previous sources but I've only heard the Testament, which I think is pretty comparable to other 50s live recordings--decent overall sound, some dropouts and occasional static or mechanical noises.


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## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> Varnay has few Tristan recordings, none that I really like overall (and I am huge Varnay fan).......Modl above is the ticket. When money is no object then you get the Pristine XR 52 Furtwangler Tristan with Flagstad.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 62 Knap Parsifal is transcendental glorious journey, for many including me it is the reference recording, the perfect fool must take the journey to reveal the true nature and power of the grail to the knights of montsalvat......


DA, listened to the '62 from start to finish last night... The music is other-worldly; Thomas sounded wonderful, and while Irene Dalis has a beautiful voice I didn't totally connect with her Kundry like I was expecting to. I didn't get to listening until late so the finish time was 2:30 am, I feel like I need to listen to it another 3 or 4 times at least; each time I'll glean more than I did before... A very deep work. I just got '61 Myto with much the same cast so it'll be interesting to see any differences. Also at some point hearing a Modl Kundry will be necessary.


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## The Conte

DarkAngel said:


> 36 Gotterdammerung is in the Wagner at the MET boxset with Sony remaster, but I don't think it sounds much better than the Naxos edition you show, still a great boxset to own plus you get 40 Walkure you also want
> 
> 
> 
> By far the best sound of any available 40 Walkure with Lawrence is the recent Pristine XR, amazing sound transformation, extended sound sample available at Pristine website.....
> 
> https://www.pristineclassical.com/paco125.html


Just a correction, the Walkure in the Sony boxset (and issued by Pristine) is the 1940 recording with Lawrence as Sieglinde and it's a good one. However, the question was about the 1940 recording with Lawrence as Brunhilde. As far as I'm concerned both are essential, although I prefer the overall cast on the Lawrence as Brunhilde one.

N.


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## gardibolt

Was just listening to the 1965 Bayreuth Götterdämmerung with Böhm and came to the infamous cut of Gutrune's 'War das sein Horn?" from the beginning of Act III, Scene 3. That was just insane; that's such a vital scene and the cut reduces Gutrune to a nonentity. What the heck were they thinking? Saving four minutes out of a five hour opera?


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## silentio

The Conte said:


> Just a correction, the Walkure in the Sony boxset (and issued by Pristine) is the 1940 recording with Lawrence as Sieglinde and it's a good one. However, the question was about the 1940 recording with Lawrence as Brunhilde. As far as I'm concerned both are essential, although I prefer the overall cast on the Lawrence as Brunhilde one.
> 
> N.


Thanks!

I am more of a Lawrence's fan than a Flagstad's, thus I will probably purchase the 40 Walkure.

I just tried the 1936 Gotterdammerung. The sound quality is horrendous! Fortunately it is available on Spotify, so I can "refer" to it sometimes.


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## Barbebleu

Just listened to Parsifal from Bayreuth 1966 with Boulez at the helm. Very nice. Greindl is a gruff but very empathetic Gurnemanz. Varnay is a trifle hysterical and occasionally squally as Kundry but never less than engaging and powerful. Konya is in good voice, Neidlinger is his usual excellent self as Klingsor and Thomas Stewart is a wonderful Amfortas. 
All in all, this is a very fine Parsifal. Contrary to popular opinion Boulez's pacing is exemplary and at no point does this feel hurried.
Addendum. Listened again to Act 2. Neidlinger immense! Varnay no less so! Konya superb. Boulez and the orchestra intense. One of the best Act 2's I have heard. Magic!!


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## DarkAngel

This just arrived yesterday, as for sound I have no doubt it is best available version but not as amazing transformation as the 40 Walkure Pristine XR above, still a rare chance to hear the great wagner singers in best sound possible.

The opening venusburg act 1 with Melchior and Thorberg was very good, but I was not really greatly impressed (yet), then came act 2 at wartburg castle the rousing prelude and entrance of Elizabeth, Flagstad enters with applause and just takes command of the performance "'Dich, teure Halle", vibrant thrilling singing that makes you stop everything and listen, here is sample but not from Pristine XR remaster (still very good sound):






So the remainder of opera is very impressive with Flagstad and Melchior both in rare form making this a must have historical Tannhauser, great stuff.......


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## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> This just arrived yesterday, as for sound I have no doubt it is best available version but not as amazing transformation as the 40 Walkure Pristine XR above, still a rare chance to hear the great wagner singers in best sound possible.
> 
> The opening venusburg act 1 with Melchior and Thorberg was very good, but I was not really greatly impressed (yet), then came act 2 at wartburg castle the rousing prelude and entrance of Elizabeth, Flagstad enters with applause and just takes command of the performance "'Dich, teure Halle", vibrant thrilling singing that makes you stop everything and listen, here is sample but not from Pristine XR remaster (still very good sound):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So the remainder of opera is very impressive with Flagstad and Melchior both in rare form making this a must have historical Tannhauser, great stuff.......


Great days indeed at the Met. Gone but not forgotten, fortunately.


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## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> Just listened to *Parsifal from Bayreuth 1966 with Boulez *at the helm. Very nice. Greindl is a gruff but very empathetic Gurnemanz. Varnay is a trifle hysterical and occasionally squally as Kundry but never less than engaging and powerful. Konya is in good voice, Neidlinger is his usual excellent self as Klingsor and Thomas Stewart is a wonderful Amfortas.
> All in all, this is a very fine Parsifal. Contrary to popular opinion Boulez's pacing is exemplary and at no point does this feel hurried.
> *Addendum. Listened again to Act 2. Neidlinger immense! Varnay no less so! Konya superb. Boulez and the orchestra intense. One of the best Act 2's I have heard. Magic*!!


DA heads over to operadepot website and sees 60% march madness sale, now searching Parsifal listings ha ha

Only Boulez Parsifal they have is 68 with different cast.............


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## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> DA heads over to operadepot website and sees 60% march madness sale, now searching Parsifal listings ha ha
> 
> Only Boulez Parsifal they have is 68 with different cast.............


Yes, unfortunately now it's a ferocious price if you can find a copy. If you want to listen to it YouTube have it as one long, 3 hour 50 minute track. Also Anja Silja and Helga Dernesch are among the flower maidens!


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## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> Yes, unfortunately now it's a ferocious price if you can find a copy. If you want to listen to it YouTube have it as one long, 3 hour 50 minute track. Also Anja Silja and *Helga Dernesch* *are among the flower maidens*!


Dernesch got quite a "promotion" since soon afterwards she is Brunnhilde on Karajan Ring and Isolde on Karajan Tristan


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## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> Dernesch got quite a "promotion" since soon afterwards she is Brunnhilde on Karajan Ring and Isolde on Karajan Tristan


Yes she did, to the utter ruin of her voice, sadly. Those parts came too soon but Karajan carried a lot of clout back in the day and it would have been hard to refuse him I suppose.


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## Marschallin Blair

DarkAngel said:


> *Dernesch got quite a "promotion" since soon afterwards she is Brunnhilde on Karajan Ring and Isolde on Karajan Tristan *












. . . and of course that other crown jewel of Leonora on Karajan's EMI _Fidelio_.

_Ravishing._


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## DavidA

Barbebleu said:


> Yes she did, to the utter ruin of her voice, sadly. Those parts came too soon but Karajan carried a lot of clout back in the day and it would have been hard to refuse him I suppose.


I don't think you can necessarily say that they came too soon. We know Silja sang them very young. And Varnay was another who went back to being a mezzo. Denersch was certainly what Karajan would have been looking for - a strikingly beautiful woman with a beautiful voice, of the more rounded sort that he preferred.


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## Barbebleu

I disagree. I love her as Isolde and Brunnhilde and Elisabeth but just because Silja started young and managed is no recommendation. I personally don't think that Dernesch's voice was fundamentally strong enough to sing the heavyweight Wagner roles at length and her career suffered accordingly. She didn't last as long as she might have at the top and as we all know, her vocal crises resulted in her changing to mezzo roles. Sometimes being singled out by someone like Karajan isn't necessarily the best thing that can happen in a career.


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## gardibolt

Opera Depot got me again. In the waning hours of their 60% off sale I picked up three more 1960s Rings: 1965 Solti London; Maazel 1969 Bayreuth and 1968 Sawallisch Rome. It's a disease. But I'm starting to run out of Rings to buy from them, so there's that.


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## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> Opera Depot got me again. In the waning hours of their 60% off sale I picked up three more 1960s Rings: 1965 Solti London; Maazel 1969 Bayreuth and 1968 Sawallisch Rome. It's a disease. But I'm starting to run out of Rings to buy from them, so there's that.


You are finally getting "ringed out" but I said that three rings ago latest being 73 Stein Bayreuth......

As long as we don't drown in Rings like Barbie we are probably still have "some" sanity left, very little I suspect but on with the music.......


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## Barbebleu

gardibolt said:


> Opera Depot got me again. In the waning hours of their 60% off sale I picked up three more 1960s Rings: 1965 Solti London; Maazel 1969 Bayreuth and 1968 Sawallisch Rome. It's a disease. But I'm starting to run out of Rings to buy from them, so there's that.


A company called Opera Passion have loads of fantastic stuff including another ring I have just purchased, Bayreuth 1967. This is the one that was split between Bohm and Suitner. The Bohm Walkure and Gotterdammerung were used for the official Phillips release along with the Rheingold and Siegfried from 1966.

They are also having a sale and I got it for $14!!


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## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> A company called *Opera Passion* have loads of fantastic stuff including another ring I have just purchased, Bayreuth 1967. This is the one that was split between Bohm and Suitner. The Bohm Walkure and Gotterdammerung were used for the official Phillips release along with the Rheingold and Siegfried from 1966.
> 
> They are also having a sale and I got it for $14!!


Barbie what is your experience with opera passion music, is it generally lower sound quality sources than operadepot?

Looks like all music is sold as mp3 format no matter if you download or get discs if I am reading info correct........


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> Barbie what is your experience with opera passion music, is it generally lower sound quality sources than operadepot?
> 
> Looks like all music is sold as mp3 format no matter if you download or get discs if I am reading info correct........


I have used them once before and it was a cd-rom with the complete operas of Wagner. I wanted it only for the Parsifal which I didn't have. Most of the operas weren't in bad quality except for, you guessed it, the one that I wanted. It sounded a bit distant and obviously recorded in the theatre from somewhere backstage. I haven't used them enough to compare with Operadepot. The Bayreuth '67 sample sounded o.k.


----------



## Barbebleu

I have just finished listening to the 1941 Tannhauser from the Met with Melchior, Flagstad, conducted by Leinsdorf. It's ok. But quite heavily cut and Melchior while in pretty good voice occasionally goes awry. I'm glad I've listened to it but it's not one I'll be rushing back to anytime soon.


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> Barbie what is your experience with opera passion music, is it generally lower sound quality sources than operadepot?
> 
> Looks like all music is sold as mp3 format no matter if you download or get discs if I am reading info correct........


Hi DA. I got my Bayreuth Ring 1967 download. I have dipped into it and it is not too bad. It's an off-air radio broadcast from Japan and there is an element of hiss but it's not really too obtrusive and the music soon makes you forget about it. The broadcast even starts with the famous Bayreuth fanfares. Rheingold sounds great and I really only wanted the download for Rheingold and Siegfried because the Walkure and Gotterdammerung are already part of the Bohm Philips release. For the money it's an absolute steal. I think it will be next up on my list although I fancy I will do '66 first, then '67.


----------



## gardibolt

gardibolt said:


> Opera Depot got me again. In the waning hours of their 60% off sale I picked up three more 1960s Rings: 1965 Solti London; Maazel 1969 Bayreuth and 1968 Sawallisch Rome. It's a disease. But I'm starting to run out of Rings to buy from them, so there's that.


OK, now I know I have too many Rings. I already had the 1968 Sawallisch from Rome on Myto. Time to stop. Incidentally, the sound on the Myto CDs is MUCH MUCH MUCH superior to the Opera Depot offering, especially Siegfried. Myto is in good sounding stereo, OD's is iffy mono, and the Forging Scene in Siegfried sounds like it's underwater. So spring for the Myto.


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> OK, now I know I have too many Rings. I already had the *1968 Sawallisch from Rome on Myto*. Time to stop. Incidentally, the sound on the Myto CDs is MUCH MUCH MUCH superior to the Opera Depot offering, especially Siegfried. Myto is in good sounding stereo, OD's is iffy mono, and the Forging Scene in Siegfried sounds like it's underwater. So spring for the Myto.


I have never seen a 68 Sawallisch Ring on Myto except for older individual opera releases which are quite pricey on Amazon, where did you get this young man?










I have also purchased CDs that I later found out I already own, an embarrassing situation and a warning sign you have too many fricking CDs already, ha ha


----------



## silentio

Isn't Lohengrin the most bel-canto of all Wagner operas?

To listen to Lohengrin in Italian is a guilty pleasure for me.

I already enjoyed Tebaldi's Elsa. Her voice is secure, she sounds inspired and cares a great deal for the phrases. However, I'm not so impressed by the male singers.






​
Probably I will purchase the 1959 Milan Lohengrin with Sandor Konya. Any comments on this performance?

http://operadepot.com/products/wagn...-marcella-pobbe-aldo-protti-ferdinand-leitner


----------



## DarkAngel

silentio said:


> Isn't Lohengrin the most bel-canto of all Wagner operas?
> 
> To listen to Lohengrin in Italian is a guilty pleasure for me.
> 
> I already enjoyed Tebaldi's Elsa. Her voice is secure, she sounds inspired and cares a great deal for the phrases. However, I'm not so impressed by the male singers.
> 
> View attachment 82488​
> Probably I will purchase the 1959 Milan Lohengrin with Sandor Konya. Any comments on this performance?
> 
> http://operadepot.com/products/wagn...-marcella-pobbe-aldo-protti-ferdinand-leitner


My favorite swan knights are Jess Thomas and Sandor Konya from late 1950s and early 1960s Bayreuth, have not heard the operadepot version you show but I do have the excellent 59 Bayreuth Lohengrin on Orfeo with Konya also has Grummer and Rita Gorr, fabulous performance with very good sound......yes Grummer is in even better voice here than in later Kempe EMI studio










Complete performance on youtube..........


----------



## gardibolt

Yes, that set. Norpete had a couple copies of each for cheap six months ago or so and I snapped them up. They're quite good. Here's hoping they re-release them.


----------



## DarkAngel

Another great one 58 Lohengrin Bayreuth, again Konya has great tonal beauty and dramatic nuance, the women are different Varnay is so great as Ortrud with her dark lower voice and Rysanek a near perfect Elsa.......but no one can surpass Grummer at this time as Elsa (and Eva in Meistersinger)

Sound is again amazingly good and price is a fraction of 59 Orfeo ($9 Amazon USA), perhaps best to start here but you must have both if you are to fully understand the mysterious swan knight of montsalvat, glorious wagner tomes

















Astrid Varnay


----------



## cheftimmyr

I wanted to report back that I finished my first Ring Cycle listening experience. I thought I could get through 4 days in a row, that proved to be difficult but I was able to at least listen to each one start to finish over the span of 8 days. I can finally understand what an epic masterpiece Wagner created and how many more times I will need to listen through it to continue to glean things I missed previously. 

On the advice of DA, I started with the Bohm 66/67 cycle. Im anxious to hear Hotter as Wotan. I'm thinking to go 52 Keilberth then 57 Knap then 60 Kempe. Before that though I'm gonna take a "break" and listen to a few Lohengrins... 

Thanks again to everyones kind suggestions as I journey through the genius of Wagner!

Also, my wife got me tickets (Valentines Day gift) to the Houston Grand Opera production of Siegfried in April... I'm beyond excited to see/hear it live!


----------



## DarkAngel

Great to hear your progress!
Keep us updated on your survey of the great Bayreuth Rings, it will help us re-live the epic journey, carry on lad.......



> Im anxious to hear Hotter as Wotan. I'm thinking to go 52 Keilberth then 57 Knap then 60 Kempe


Regarding Hotter, you are correct in assuming this will set a new vocal standard for you in Wotan/Wanderer role during the 1950s Rings, such intense vocal characterization and vocal agility will remain unsurpassed by any who followed him, a modern vocal reference to measure others by



> Before that though I'm gonna take a "break" and listen to a few Lohengrins


The swan knight of montsalvat one of Wagner's great creations, listen and praise the righteous knight in his quest to protect the innocent victim.......


----------



## gardibolt

Hotter's pretty much the last great Wotan.


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> Hotter's pretty much the last great Wotan.


I think almost all Wagner fans will agree with that sweeping statement, he was so good in his prime 1950s Wotan/Wanderer performances no one since can really challenge them.........


----------



## cheftimmyr

Opera Depot is running a 60% off sale on all Parsifal's. Does anyone have any recs on specific recordings that I should add to my growing Wagner collection? I have 3 Knappy's ('51, '61 & '62) and Barenboim... Appreciate suggestions!


----------



## gardibolt

cheftimmyr said:


> Opera Depot is running a 60% off sale on all Parsifal's. Does anyone have any recs on specific recordings that I should add to my growing Wagner collection? I have 3 Knappy's ('51, '61 & '62) and Barenboim... Appreciate suggestions!


I have the 1953 Krauss Parsifal; it's pretty good and gives you a different approach from Knappertsbusch but with many of the same folks.

I also have the 1959 Kempe Parsifal and the 1977 Sawallisch from Opera Depot; I don't think I've listened to them yet though so I don't feel comfortable recommending them.

Not Opera Depot, but the Kubelik Parsifal on Arts (pricey, but you can sometimes snag a used copy at a reasonable cost) is excellent and if you're a fan of the opera it should be on your shortlist.


----------



## cheftimmyr

gardibolt said:


> I have the 1953 Krauss Parsifal; it's pretty good and gives you a different approach from Knappertsbusch but with many of the same folks.
> 
> I also have the 1959 Kempe Parsifal and the 1977 Sawallisch from Opera Depot; I don't think I've listened to them yet though so I don't feel comfortable recommending them.
> 
> Not Opera Depot, but the Kubelik Parsifal on Arts (pricey, but you can sometimes snag a used copy at a reasonable cost) is excellent and if you're a fan of the opera it should be on your shortlist.


Thx for the suggestions. Cheapest Kubelik I can find is $38+ shipping... I'll keep my eye out... May pull the trigger on '53 Krauss.


----------



## DarkAngel

cheftimmyr said:


> Opera Depot is running a 60% off sale on all Parsifal's. Does anyone have any recs on specific recordings that I should add to my growing Wagner collection? *I have 3 Knappy's ('51, '61 & '62)* and Barenboim... Appreciate suggestions!


The ones I bought and kept in collection from operadepot are 54 Knap and 69 Stein (young James King)......

Some other worthy cheap Bayreuth CD sets in mono sound:

 56 Knap

 57 Knap

 58 Knap

AS gardibolt said the 53 Krauss Parsifal is great with a different conductor from the string of Bayreuth Knaps, cheap version on Andromeda, best sound is on Pristine XR but cost is higher....


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## DarkAngel

For stereo the 62 Knap (the reference) and 80 Kubelik the prime choices.......from there you have several others Karajan, Boulez, Solti and more depending how far you want to go


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## cheftimmyr

I've been going back through the thread pages starting from the beginning... I have a feeling my next purchases will be some of the Testament (1955 cycle, '51 Gott) and Pristine (Krauss cycle, Krauss Parsifal, Kempe Meistersinger, etc) releases; DA keeps baiting me!!!!!

I'm starting to get greedy and I'm making more and more time to listen to the modest library I've amassed thus far... Still need the '53 Keilberth... "Oh the humanity!"


----------



## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> For stereo the 62 Knap (the reference) and 80 Kubelik the prime choices.......from there you have several others Karajan, Boulez, Solti and more depending how far you want to go


DA is the '64 Knap Parsifal an essential purchase as well?


----------



## DarkAngel

cheftimmyr said:


> DA is the '64 Knap Parsifal an essential purchase as well?


That is one Duck brought to my attention (causing me to buy after sampling) with Vickers replacing Thomas as the perfect fool Parsifal and a different Kundry unknown to me previously, it is a great performance but I slightly prefer the 62 with Jess Thomas overall plus there is no cheap way I know to get the 64......just expensive Orfeo release


----------



## Barbebleu

Ive just finished listening to the '66 Ring with Bohm. These were all '66 performances with two 1966 BBC radio broadcasts replacing the '67 Walkure and Gotterdammerung from the 66/67 Bohm box set. Very good with Windgassen and Nilsson on very good form. Theo Adam is a more than adequate Wotan and Thomas Stewart is great as Gunther. Neidlinger, Greindl and Wohlfart are all first class. Why Philips felt the need to release performances from two different years is anyone's guess because the '66 performances are perfectly fine. Onto 1967 next with Suitner doing Rheingold and Siegfried and Bohm doing the other two. I'll let you know what Suitner's like.


----------



## howlingfantods

cheftimmyr said:


> Thx for the suggestions. Cheapest Kubelik I can find is $38+ shipping... I'll keep my eye out... May pull the trigger on '53 Krauss.


The Kubelik is worth it though. I listen to my Kubelik more than I listen to my dozens of more inexpensive Parsifal recordings put together.


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## DarkAngel

cheftimmyr said:


> I've been going back through the thread pages starting from the beginning... I have a feeling my next purchases will be some of the Testament (1955 cycle, '51 Gott) and Pristine (Krauss cycle, Krauss Parsifal, Kempe Meistersinger, etc) releases; DA keeps baiting me!!!!!
> 
> I'm starting to get greedy and I'm making more and more time to listen to the modest library I've amassed thus far... *Still need the '53 Keilberth... "Oh the humanity*!"


You must get the new 53 Keilberth Ring boxset, some think it is even better than famous 55 stereo Keilberth, and the sound quality is really great clear mono.....absolutely esstenial ($35 at Amazon USA)


----------



## Itullian

Don't forget the '57 Knappy Ring


----------



## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> You must get the new 53 Keilberth Ring boxset, some think it is even better than famous 55 stereo Keilberth, and the sound quality is really great clear mono.....absolutely esstenial ($35 at Amazon USA)


Dark Angel, always the temptress!


----------



## cheftimmyr

Itullian said:


> Don't forget the '57 Knappy Ring


It's in line to be listened to...


----------



## Barbebleu

Further to my post on the '66 Bayreuth Ring I should have mentioned that I think that the reason that they didn't use the Gotterdammerung from that year for the official Bohm release is that not only do they cut Gutrune's little solo scene but Dvorakova fluffs her entry at Hagen's return and comes in too early and stops and comes in again at the right place. I should read my own notes more closely!!


----------



## cheftimmyr

Ordered '51 Götterdämmerung (Knapp; Testament), '53 Keilberth Cycle, and '55 Keilberth Hollander (Testament)... 

I know I need to add the '55 Testament Keilberth ring next and am wondering if anyone has a recommendation on best place to purchase. Best I can find so far is on MDT.. $120 shipped... Nothing else I've seen comes close; cray-cray expensive! Is this most likely the best I'm going to find? I've heard Presto Testament sales and such mentioned, wondering if I'm better to hold out for one of those...


----------



## DarkAngel

cheftimmyr said:


> Ordered '51 Götterdämmerung (Knapp; Testament), '53 Keilberth Cycle, and '55 Keilberth Hollander (Testament)...
> 
> I know I need to add the '55 Testament Keilberth ring next and am wondering if anyone has a recommendation on best place to purchase. Best I can find so far is on MDT.. $120 shipped... Nothing else I've seen comes close; cray-cray expensive! Is this most likely the best I'm going to find? I've heard Presto Testament ales and such mentioned, wondering if I'm better to hold out for one of those...


Sounds like a good price, Testament label is never "cheap" even on sale prices......

Some time ago we discussed here that from 52-58 they performed two Rings each year at Bayreuth, and there exists two more stereo Testament operas from the other 55 Ring.....so a total of six Ring operas are available for purchase:


----------



## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> Sounds like a good price, Testament label is never "cheap" even on sale prices......
> 
> Some time ago we discussed here that from 52-58 they performed two Rings each year at Bayreuth, and there exists two more stereo Testament operas from the other 55 Ring.....so a total of six Ring operas are available for purchase:


I think I'll prioritize the full set for now, then circle back and pick up Götterdämmerung and Walkure from the second cycle down the road... I'm falling further into the abyss

This is getting expensive....


----------



## silentio

I really enjoy these excerpts from Act II of Gotterdammerung, with Leider/Melchior/Janssen/Furtwangler, live in 1938 at Covent Garden.

When I started on Verdi, someone advised me to first educate myself with the opera La Traviata using fine studio recordings, then turn to the dreadful-sound 1955 Callas' performance to really understand how his music should be sung. I am now grateful for this advice, and I think the same can be said for Wagner and Leider's Gotterdammerung after one hears many other fine Brunnhildes (Varnay, Nilsson, Dernesch). Hers was the kind if warm, Italianate but penetrating voice that was virtually extinct after 1950s. The live performance also reveals why Leider was revered as a great dramatic singing-actress, which some of her rushed, uninspired studio recordings made in 1920s fails to do. Overall, the sound quality is unexpectedly decent for a live performance in the 1930s.






​


----------



## DarkAngel

^^^^ Great stuff Silentio, I was impressed hearing Frida in the 1926-32 studio potted Ring releases at Pristine XR, the sound is excellent since these are studio recordings and electrical recording technologies (microphones, amps etc) had just been made available.......

Great to hear all these singers in such wonderful sound


----------



## DarkAngel

DarkAngel said:


> That is one Duck brought to my attention (causing me to buy after sampling) with Vickers replacing Thomas as the perfect fool Parsifal and a different Kundry unknown to me previously, it is a great performance but I slightly prefer the 62 with Jess Thomas overall plus there is no cheap way I know to get the 64......just expensive Orfeo release


Operadepot has a 64 Parsifal and sample sounds very good, on sale now $11.58 for one more day.....


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## DarkAngel

50 Parsifal with Callas sung in Italian & 49 Parsifal with very young Martha Modl

I should never go back to that website since my buy basket seems to always end up with a couple more wagner goodies, just got these two to add to very large existing collection.....


----------



## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> 50 Parsifal with Callas sung in Italian & 49 Parsifal with very young Martha Modl
> 
> I should never go back to that website since my buy basket seems to always end up with a couple more wagner goodies, just got these two to add to very large existing collection.....


Look forward to hearing your thoughts on '50 Parsifal w/ Callas


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## cheftimmyr

Postman brought a gift today... A few others on the way... I also have a 10 item order in the basket at Pristine but I haven't had the courage yet to click "buy"... 

And I am inept at posting pictures on this page from my phone... Apologies


----------



## DarkAngel

^^^^ Same recording team as the 55 Keilberth Ring thus the great stereo sound for that Dutchman


----------



## Pugg

DarkAngel said:


> 50 Parsifal with Callas sung in Italian & 49 Parsifal with very young Martha Modl
> 
> I should never go back to that website since my buy basket seems to always end up with a couple more wagner goodies, just got these two to add to very large existing collection.....


Thank goodness for their sales they have (very often)


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## gardibolt

Almost constantly, in fact. Plus their weekly free download is often very nice. In the last week they've even had three freebies: a sampler of Martha Mödl and two different Parsifals (Boulez 1968 Bayreuth, Goodall 1971 still available). I've gotten a couple free Ring Cycles while I've been getting their newsletter as well.

That Testament Dutchman is terrific; you won't be disappointed.


----------



## interestedin

gardibolt said:


> That Testament Dutchman is terrific; you won't be disappointed.


Yes this is so true, I'm listening to it right now.

Astrid Varnay (who sang Senta in that Dutchman) wrote in her autobiography that George London was the incarnate Dutchman, but I think Herrmann Uhde's haunted, ghostly voice IS the voice of the Holländer.


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## cheftimmyr

My package arrived today supposedly containing the '53 Keilberth Ring cycle I ordered on Amazon... Only to find that I got sent a DVD box set of the Barenboim Ring (Teatro alla Scala)... Grrrr!!! Looks like I'm in for a longer wait


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## cheftimmyr

I was able to listen to the new Dutchman I received the other day (Keilberth; Testament). Gardibolt was correct, what a terrific recording! My only reference point thus far has been the Dorati with London and Rysanek. I found Keilberth's pace overall more engaging (although I haven't compared overall lengths); Uhde was a great Dutchman to my ears. This was also my first intro to Varnay, what a voice!!!! I look forward to meeting her as Brunnhilde soon!

Thanks to everyone for this recommendation; its a keeper that I won't part with.

I'm also firmly in the camp of Itullian, Acts split up by separate discs suck! CD 2 starts part way into Act II Scene 2... Annoying, but I got over it...


----------



## interestedin

I wonder if anyone of you has heard of this 1950 Scala Ring:









It's a release by the French Furtwängler society (SWF http://www.furtwangler.net/cd.html) and on their website they claim "the sound quality is better than any other issue".

I know everyone would say that about their own remasterings, but they should have no interest in making profit with their discs (unlike for instance Pristineclassical whose Ring I know.) And they also recommend recordings of other labels on their site:

http://www.furtwangler.net/bestchoice.html

Has anyone ever heard of that Ring or other releases by the SWF?


----------



## DarkAngel

interestedin said:


> I wonder if anyone of you has heard of this 1950 Scala Ring:
> 
> View attachment 83105
> 
> 
> It's a release by the French Furtwängler society (SWF http://www.furtwangler.net/cd.html) and on their website they claim "the sound quality is better than any other issue".
> 
> I know everyone would say that about their own remasterings, but they should have no interest in making profit with their discs (unlike for instance Pristineclassical whose Ring I know.) And they also recommend recordings of other labels on their site:
> 
> http://www.furtwangler.net/bestchoice.html
> 
> Has anyone ever heard of that Ring or other releases by the SWF?


Never heard of them, but I notice the artwork on cover for 50 Ring is the same as used by Music & Arts release hmmmm......










If they are just selling this Ring under their own private "label" I have owned both Music & Arts and Pristine XR and easily prefer the Pristine XR version for best sound.......


----------



## interestedin

Thanks, I too thought that cover looked familiar. But on their "best choice" list they do recommend Furtwängler releases of other labels (including one of Music & Arts) so they could have done the same with that Ring. Perhaps it was just the only existing photo of the 1950 ring….


----------



## interestedin

Hmm… Walhall or Orfeo for Karajan's 1952 Tristan?


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## DarkAngel

interestedin said:


> Hmm… Walhall or Orfeo for Karajan's 1952 Tristan?


The Walhall is so cheap and *really sounds great*.....Orfeo has better booklet packaging but very expensive etc. Really great Tristan for me, love it


----------



## interestedin

Thank you, again


----------



## cheftimmyr

Need some guidance! What's the best '50's Ring to start with and progress up? I have 52, 53 Keilberth, '57 (Knap) & '60 (Kempe)... What's best order to go in? Thx! About to order '55 Testament


----------



## cheftimmyr

Presto Classical is running a Testament sale right now... I scored the '55 Ring for best price Ive been able to find... Now the decision is whether to buy the Walkure and Gotterdammerung from the 2nd cycle... decisions decisions!


----------



## Barbebleu

cheftimmyr said:


> Need some guidance! What's the best '50's Ring to start with and progress up? I have 52, 53 Keilberth, '57 (Knap) & '60 (Kempe)... What's best order to go in? Thx! About to order '55 Testament


Personally I would go with the chronological order unless there is a pressing need to hear particular singers or a particular conductor. By the time you have finished '52 and '53 you will have the '55. The '58 Knap is also a good one to have.


----------



## interestedin

cheftimmyr said:


> Need some guidance! What's the best '50's Ring to start with and progress up? I have 52, 53 Keilberth, '57 (Knap) & '60 (Kempe)... What's best order to go in? Thx! About to order '55 Testament


If possible, try blind listening with random order. For unbiased hearing


----------



## DarkAngel

cheftimmyr said:


> Need some guidance! What's the best '50's Ring to start with and progress up? I have 52, 53 Keilberth, '57 (Knap) & '60 (Kempe)... What's best order to go in? Thx! About to order '55 Testament


Before committing to listening to entire Ring start to finish perhaps listen to a couple of you favorite scences from each different Ring to get quick feel for cast and conductor that year......when I get a new Ring I always go to a few scences I know well for quick evaluation

Hard to take time for complete Ring listening session, and you have many of the great ones to explore......


----------



## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> Before committing to listening to entire Ring start to finish perhaps listen to a couple of you favorite scences from each different Ring to get quick feel for cast and conductor that year......when I get a new Ring I always go to a few scences I know well for quick evaluation
> 
> Hard to take time for complete Ring listening session, and you have many of the great ones to explore......


Good advice DA; do you, and others, have specific scenes in each Ring Opera that are go-to's? I think I've seen it mentioned occasionally but seems to be a good question...


----------



## Barbebleu

Try the Forest Murmurs scene from Siegfried for starters or the last twenty minutes of Act 1 of Walkure or the conclusion of Rheingold from Heda, Hedo onwards or Hagens Watch at the start of Act 2 of Gotterdammerung. Oooh, the immolation scene at the end of Gotterdammerung, the duping of Alberich by Wotan and Loge in Rheingold, the riddle scene from Siegfried, the magic fire music from Walkure. The list is endless. Just listen to the lot!!:lol:


----------



## DarkAngel

cheftimmyr said:


> Good advice DA; do you, and others, have specific scenes in each Ring Opera that are go-to's? I think I've seen it mentioned occasionally but seems to be a good question...


*I concentrate on Walkure, but here are my fav sections to audition.......*

*Rheingold*
- scence 1, rheinmaidens & alberich
- scence 4, "weiche wotan" (erda's warning) to conclusion

*Walkure*
- Act 1, "winterstrume" to conclusion
- Act 2, all
- Act 3, all

*Siegfried*
- Act 3, "heil dir sonne" (awakening of brunnhilde) to conclusion

*Gotterdammerung*
- Prologue, all (norns, siegfried's journey)
- Act 3, all (or skip ahead to immolation scence)

Have you pushed the buy button yet at Presto UK, 55 Keilberth Ring so tempting......


----------



## cheftimmyr

Thanks Barbie & DA!


----------



## howlingfantods

cheftimmyr said:


> Need some guidance! What's the best '50's Ring to start with and progress up? I have 52, 53 Keilberth, '57 (Knap) & '60 (Kempe)... What's best order to go in? Thx! About to order '55 Testament


I'd go for more variety in conductors and casts personally. I'd hold off on any others by Kempe/Keilberth/Kna until getting a wider mix from other conductors.

I'd highly recommend Furtwangler since he's the greatest Wagnerian of the recorded era--I prefer the 1950 La Scala over the 1953 RAI. If you haven't gotten the Krauss 1953 yet, that's another great one, and I also wouldn't overlook the Moralt from 1949.


----------



## cheftimmyr

howlingfantods said:


> I'd go for more variety in conductors and casts personally. I'd hold off on any others by Kempe/Keilberth/Kna until getting a wider mix from other conductors.
> 
> I'd highly recommend Furtwangler since he's the greatest Wagnerian of the recorded era--I prefer the 1950 La Scala over the 1953 RAI. If you haven't gotten the Krauss 1953 yet, that's another great one, and I also wouldn't overlook the Moralt from 1949.


I'm saving to get the Krauss and '50 Furtwangler from Prestige... Im spying 10 items so I can get the discount, but man that's a chunk of change... $$$$$


----------



## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> *I concentrate on Walkure, but here are my fav sections to audition.......*
> 
> Have you pushed the buy button yet at Presto UK, 55 Keilberth Ring so tempting......


Yes I did! It's already in the mail... Counting the days!


----------



## DarkAngel

cheftimmyr said:


> I'm saving to get the Krauss and '50 Furtwangler from Pristine XR... *Im spying 10 items so I can get the discount*, but man that's a chunk of change... $$$$$


I am listening to 53 Krauss Ring now in Pristine XR ambient stereo amazing sound, not to worry you are closer to discount order than you think.....each Ring counts as 4 items so there is eight, just add the 52 Furtwangler Tristan and 56 Kempe Meister and you got 10, buy buy buy......


----------



## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> I am listening to 53 Krauss Ring now in Pristine XR ambient stereo amazing sound, not to worry you are closer to discount order than you think.....each Ring counts as 4 items so there is eight, just add the 52 Furtwangler Tristan and 56 Kempe Meister and you got 10, buy buy buy......


When I put each Ring cycle (as a set) in the basket it only counts as 1 item for me. I added the cost of buying each opera individually and it is cheaper when you buy as the set, so I'm not sure if that's why the discount doesn't work... (only counts as 1 not 4)...


----------



## Itullian

cheftimmyr said:


> Yes I did! It's already in the mail... Counting the days!


It will knock your socks off. Nicely packaged too.


----------



## interestedin

Hmm…does that exist on any other label than Walhall?


----------



## interestedin

Itullian said:


> It will knock your socks off. Nicely packaged too.


Oh yes it is! Lots of photos!


----------



## howlingfantods

interestedin said:


> View attachment 83230
> 
> 
> Hmm…does that exist on any other label than Walhall?


Also on Myto and Cantus at least, not sure if any others. Excellent performances, pretty poor sound.


----------



## interestedin

howlingfantods said:


> Also on Myto and Cantus at least, not sure if any others. Excellent performances, pretty poor sound.


Thank you! Then I will go for the Walhall.

From what I hear from the samples the sound seems to be pretty rich, at least compared with other pre Furtwängler-recordings. Apparently it's just that the singers are very far away from the microphones….

Edit: Okay the rich sound may have been wishful thinking


----------



## interestedin

Since this forum is so helpful here is another one: 

Am I correct that there is no other (or no better) release of the 1938 Bodanzky Tristan than on the Wagner-Met-box?


----------



## DarkAngel

interestedin said:


> Since this forum is so helpful here is another one:
> 
> Am I correct that there is no other (or no better) release of the 1938 Bodanzky Tristan than on the Wagner-Met-box?


If you are looking for best historic Flagstad - Tristan check post 1719 regarding 41 MET Leinsdorf, CD expensive but free on Amazon Prime stream and Spotify.......


----------



## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> If you are looking for best historic Flagstad - Tristan check post 1719 regarding 41 MET Leinsdorf, CD expensive but free on Amazon Prime stream and Spotify.......


Is there a big difference in sound quality between the Gebhardt and Walhall cd's? (Walhall currently 1/2 the price of the Geb on Amazon...)


----------



## Marschallin Blair

DarkAngel said:


> If you are looking for *best historic Flagstad - Tristan *check post 1719 regarding 41 MET Leinsdorf, CD expensive but free on Amazon Prime stream and Spotify.......












Oh, you really owe it to yourself D.A. to hear Flagstad's "_Horst du sie noch?_" from Act II, Scene i of the live January 2, 1937 Bodanzky MET_ Tristan_.

Flagstad sings more passionately here than in any other performance I've heard of hers- and by a rather wide margin. Bodanzky's positively 'vis-cer-al' in his conducting. For my money, her singing on this night is one of the all time great Wagner performances.


----------



## cheftimmyr

Marschallin Blair said:


> Oh, you really owe it to yourself D.A. to hear Flagstad's "_Horst du sie noch?_" from Act II, Scene i of the live January 2, 1937 Bodanzky MET_ Tristan_.
> 
> Flagstad sings more passionately here than in any other performance I've heard of hers- and by a rather wide margin. Bodanzky's positively 'vis-cer-al' in his conducting. For my money, her singing on this night is one of the all time great Wagner performances.


Another to add to the wish list....


----------



## Diminuendo

Marschallin Blair said:


> Oh, you really owe it to yourself D.A. to hear Flagstad's "_Horst du sie noch?_" from Act II, Scene i of the live January 2, 1937 Bodanzky MET_ Tristan_.
> 
> Flagstad sings more passionately here than in any other performance I've heard of hers- and by a rather wide margin. Bodanzky's positively 'vis-cer-al' in his conducting. For my money, her singing on this night is one of the all time great Wagner performances.


I'm not that big fan of Wagner. I do love individual arias, but whole operas not that much. I can say though that it doesn't get better than Flagstad and Melchior. Someday I have to venture more into Wagner.


----------



## interestedin

DarkAngel said:


> If you are looking for best historic Flagstad - Tristan check post 1719 regarding 41 MET Leinsdorf, CD expensive but free on Amazon Prime stream and Spotify.......


i already have that Leinsdorf 1941. Now I'm looking for the Bodanzky 1938


----------



## interestedin

cheftimmyr said:


> Is there a big difference in sound quality between the Gebhardt and Walhall cd's? (Walhall currently 1/2 the price of the Geb on Amazon...)


Before you spend that much money on a Geb Tristan you need to get the 1936 Reiner Tristan, if you don't already have it. That would be my first choice for the old Flagstad Tristans


----------



## DarkAngel

Marschallin Blair said:


> Oh, you really owe it to yourself D.A. to hear Flagstad's "_Horst du sie noch?_" from Act II, Scene i of the live January 2, 1937 Bodanzky MET_ Tristan_.
> 
> Flagstad sings more passionately here than in any other performance I've heard of hers- and by a rather wide margin. Bodanzky's positively 'vis-cer-al' in his conducting. For my money, her singing on this night is one of the all time great Wagner performances.


MB I have no doubt that it is a great one.....

This Tristan was mentioned previously here by Duck as being one of his very favorites, although he found a way to get it very cheaply. Pretty much all those Flagstad - Tristans from 1936-41 at MET and ROH are great if the sound quality is acceptable, for now the 37 Bodanzky remains on wish list........here is the Liebestod


----------



## DarkAngel

cheftimmyr said:


> Is there a big difference in sound quality between the Gebhardt and Walhall cd's? (Walhall currently 1/2 the price of the Geb on Amazon...)


I don't own any of those CD sets of 41 Tristan, I just listen to streaming music services if needed....you should first consider getting the 52 Furtwangler Tristan in Pristine XR ambient stereo, best audio we have Flagstad's Isolde then go back for the earlier versions


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## interestedin

DarkAngel said:


> I don't own any of those CD sets of 41 Tristan, I just listen to streaming music services if needed....you should first consider getting the 52 Furtwangler Tristan in Pristine XR ambient stereo, best audio we have Flagstad's Isolde then go back for the earlier versions


Or save half of the money by getting the very fine EMI budget release of that indeed very essential Tristan. At least try to listen to both before buying


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## gardibolt

howlingfantods said:


> I'd go for more variety in conductors and casts personally. I'd hold off on any others by Kempe/Keilberth/Kna until getting a wider mix from other conductors.
> 
> I'd highly recommend Furtwangler since he's the greatest Wagnerian of the recorded era--I prefer the 1950 La Scala over the 1953 RAI. If you haven't gotten the Krauss 1953 yet, that's another great one, and I also wouldn't overlook the Moralt from 1949.


Agreed. The Moralt on Myto sounds very good indeed, and it's interesting to hear the generation passing away before the great 1950s performers hit the scene. It can be hard to find on Amazon since it's misclassified (I think in Books...) but it's worth hunting down. The Krauss is terrific in its Pristine incarnation.


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## interestedin

DarkAngel said:


> Pretty much all those Flagstad - Tristans from 1936-41 at MET and ROH are great if the sound quality is acceptable


But not only from 1936 on. :tiphat:

1935 is great, too:









Flagstad had sung the role only six times before that recording and only once at the Met. With more than 180 times yet to come...


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## Jeffrey Smith

interestedin said:


> Or save half of the money by getting the very fine EMI budget release of that indeed very essential Tristan. At least try to listen to both before buying


Alternatively, about the same price, Brilliant's issue, which uses EMI's first digital mastering, and which I found to be sonically acceptable.


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## DarkAngel

^^^^ JS for sure the 52 Tristan has the best sound, and most would agree Furtwangler is the best Wagner conductor we have for Flagstad, although Flagstad is in her mid 50s here (she was already 40 at the time of the 35 MET Tristan) I don't think she gives up too much vocally to those earlier recordings......plus we have her final thoughts on the evolution of Isolde after much experience with the part

Yeah we don't have that guy named Melchior here, but we have to play the cards we are dealt......


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## interestedin

DarkAngel said:


> ^^^^ JS for sure the 52 Tristan has the best sound, and most would agree Furtwangler is the best Wagner conductor we have for Flagstad, although Flagstad is in her mid 50s here (she was already 40 at the time of the 35 MET Tristan) I don't think she gives up too much vocally to those earlier recordings......plus we have her final thoughts on the evolution of Isolde after much experience with the part
> 
> Yeah we don't have that guy named Melchior here, but we have to play the cards we are dealt......


True, and even though the voice may not have been as good as 20 years earlier we get to hear much more of the voice. 90% of an 80%-voice is still more than 50% of a 100%-voice. If you know what I mean 

Melchior...I think I have heard of his name before. He was a singer, wasn't he? :lol:


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## Marschallin Blair

*


DarkAngel said:



MB I have no doubt that it is a great one.....

This Tristan was mentioned previously here by Duck as being one of his very favorites, although he found a way to get it very cheaply. Pretty much all those Flagstad - Tristans from 1936-41 at MET and ROH are great if the sound quality is acceptable, for now the 37 Bodanzky remains on wish list........here is the Liebestod







Click to expand...

*D.A., I love that you posted a clip of Flagstad's "_Liebestod_" from this performance. And I think its 'alright' to be perfectly honest.

But its her Act II "_Horst du sie noch?_" that I was referring to in my original post that I really feel represents feminine Wagnerian passion at its absolute apogee (well, her and Linda Esther Gray from the Goodall_ Tristan_ are actually 'tied' for me- but I love Bodanzky's faster and more fervid treatment of the passage).

- You've go to hear it! Birgit sounds positively placid next to it.


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## DarkAngel

Marschallin Blair said:


> D.A., I love that you posted a clip of Flagstad's "_Liebestod_" from this performance. And I think its 'alright' to be perfectly honest.
> 
> But its her Act II "_Horst du sie noch?_" that I was referring to in my original post that I really feel represents feminine Wagnerian passion at its absolute apogee (well, her and Linda Esther Gray from the Goodall_ Tristan_ are actually 'tied' for me- but I love Bodanzky's faster and more fervid treatment of the passage).
> 
> - You've go to hear it! *Birgit sounds positively placid next to it*.


Birgit who? 

As you know my favorite Isolde performance is the intensely emotional *Martha Modl from 52 Tristan Bayreuth*......
I must be content with 38 Tristan Bodanzky from MET boxset for now, the 37 would be very expensive CD purchase.


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## Woodduck

Marschallin Blair said:


> D.A., I love that you posted a clip of Flagstad's "_Liebestod_" from this performance. And I think its 'alright' to be perfectly honest.
> 
> But its her Act II "_Horst du sie noch?_" that I was referring to in my original post that I really feel represents feminine Wagnerian passion at its absolute apogee (well, her and Linda Esther Gray from the Goodall_ Tristan_ are actually 'tied' for me- but I love Bodanzky's faster and more fervid treatment of the passage).
> 
> - You've go to hear it! Birgit sounds positively placid next to it.


That Isolde is surely one of Flagstad's finest performances. I admire Nilsson's Isolde more than some here, it seems, but I admit that she shines most in the first and third acts. Her thrust and parry with Tristan leading up to the drinking of the potion is alert and sharply inflected, and her "narrative and curse" could strip the hair off any hero's chest. She's movingly heartbroken at Tristan's death, and the climax of the _Liebestod_ is tremendous. The second act of that 1966 Bayreuth recording is short on rapture and romance, though, and Nilsson, Windgassen, and Bohm are all partly responsible. Despite that, it remains for me one of the strongest recordings of the opera. With _Tristan_ performances, it's always a question of what kinds of flaws you can tolerate.


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## DarkAngel

Worship all these Isolde's, they are wagner goddesses......drink from the cup and offer atonement to one who once saved your life


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## interestedin

Isolde of the 50's, the 30's, the 40's and the 60's… We see how the role's look has been influenced by the era in which the opera was performed. In my opinion Nilsson was the least lucky in that respect:


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## cheftimmyr

I've started the '52 Keilberth cycle and just completed Rheingold. This is my 2nd Ring Cycle, with the '66/'67 Bohm being the first I listened to, so my frame of reference is limited compared to most. 

The most enjoyable difference in the '52 Rheingold was hearing Hermann Uhde as Wotan... I didn't really connect with Theo Adam the way I did when hearing Uhde sing the part; Wotan definitely came alive for me in a much greater way. 

The giant duo (Weber and Greindl) was immensely enjoyable; Neidlinger as Alberich was, again, great... I do feel I preferred Ana Silja as Erda in the '66/'67 Bohm moreso than Melanie Bugarinovic...

It also seemed like the interaction between Wotan and Fricka (Act 1, Scene 2) was quite fast.. I didn't compare the times to Bohm, but it seemed more brisk. 

The sound was fine, but there were some major annoyances with having to mess with my volume to compensate while listening. I attributed much of this to microphone placement and recording technology in 1952. I also noticed some portions of the recording where the ambient noise and sound changed completely, maybe this is what I've heard people talking about with "cuts"... The orchestra seemed muted at times, but regardless the volume, the music is heavenly!

Looking forward to Walkure which I'm hoping to start later tonight!


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## Woodduck

cheftimmyr said:


> I've started the '52 Keilberth cycle and just completed Rheingold. This is my 2nd Ring Cycle, with the '66/'67 Bohm being the first I listened to, so my frame of reference is limited compared to most.
> 
> The most enjoyable difference in the '52 Rheingold was hearing Hermann Uhde as Wotan... I didn't really connect with Theo Adam the way I did when hearing Uhde sing the part; Wotan definitely came alive for me in a much greater way.
> 
> The giant duo (Weber and Greindl) was immensely enjoyable; Neidlinger as Alberich was, again, great... I do feel I preferred Ana Silja as Erda in the '66/'67 Bohm moreso than Melanie Bugarinovic...


Uhde was such a superb artist, especially in villain roles - the greatest of all Telramunds and Klingsors, I think. I'd like to hear his Wotan; I'll bet he brings out many subtleties, as well as singing with rock-solid technique.

Did Anja Silja, a soprano, really sing Erda? I can't imagine that.


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## howlingfantods

Woodduck said:


> Uhde was such a superb artist, especially in villain roles - the greatest of all Telramunds and Klingsors, I think. I'd like to hear his Wotan; I'll bet he brings out many subtleties, as well as singing with rock-solid technique.
> 
> Did Anja Silja, a soprano, really sing Erda? I can't imagine that.


Silja was Freia, Bohm's Erda was Soukopova (sp?)

That Keilberth 1952 Rheingold is terrific, one of his best performances. Even for Keilberth, he's unusually gripping and thrilling that year.


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## cheftimmyr

howlingfantods said:


> Silja was Freia, Bohm's Erda was Soukopova (sp?)
> 
> That Keilberth 1952 Rheingold is terrific, one of his best performances. Even for Keilberth, he's unusually gripping and thrilling that year.


Oops, and well spotted Duck!!!... I misread the Cast sheet!


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## cheftimmyr

Made it through the '52 Keilberth "Die Walküre", an absolutely thrilling performance for me to experience.

I can't speak highly enough of Hotter's performance... it was riveting... I was literally on the edge of my seat in Act 2, Scene 2 during Wotan's monologue. I've seen some people say it can be long and tedious, not with Hotter singing. The raw emotion he conveys, it felt like I was watching a performance rather than just listening. Seriously running the gamut from anguish, frustration, bitterness, helplessness... etc 

This was my first experience hearing Varnay as Brunnhilde, and I can now understand why she has so many positive things written about her in that role. Truly gripping to hear her plead with Wotan in Act 3, Scene 3. An absolute stunning and beautiful voice. 

I may be in the minority, but it took me a while to get used to Treptow as Siegmund... I was somewhat adjusted by the Spring Song, but James King in the 66/67 Bohm was preferable to me. Not sure if that is blasphemous but as I slowly expand my listened-to Ring Cycles maybe that will change... 

The sound seemed marginally better than on Rheingold, however the Act 3 Prelude (Flight of the Walkure) was slightly anticlimactic for the sole reason that so much of the low brass was absent/washed out, and it sounded slightly ploddish tempo-wise... like I wanted to take the baton and speed it up! 

So far both (Rheingold/Walkure) are definite keepers for me in the '52 Keilberth Cycle, and I look forward to enjoying them again in the future.... After '53 keilberth, '55 Keilberth, 57 Knap, '60 Kempe...... And a Prestige order will soon be placed....

AND.... the postman delivered the '51 Testament Gotterdammeung (Knap) which I found a good deal on and ordered a few weeks ago...

All in all, a great day!


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## DarkAngel

^^^ Hans Hotter wotan/wanderer is so great in the 1950s he has never be surpassed by anyone who came after, vivid vocal characterizations with all the dramatic emotion fully explored, the 52 Walkure he is in freshest voice.......Varnay what can you say about such a great dramatic brunnhilde, there is a reason she was cast thoughout the 1950s Bayreuth seasons by the wagner family, I love Astrid

Don't get too spoiled by the stereo 66-67 Bohm live Bayeuth sound and expect that in 52, the 52 Myto Bayreuth Ring is really very good live mono sound when compared to any other wagner recordings made elsewhere in 52.....we must be thankful to the opera gods for such gifts

Carry on lad.......


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## DarkAngel

> So far both (Rheingold/Walkure) are definite keepers for me in the '52 Keilberth Cycle, and I look forward to enjoying them again in the future.... After '53 keilberth, '55 Keilberth, 57 Knap, '60 Kempe...... And a Prestige order will soon be placed....
> 
> AND.... the postman delivered the '51 Testament Gotterdammeung (Knap) which I found a good deal on and ordered a few weeks ago...
> 
> *All in all, a great day!*


In case you were wondering if you order from Pristine XR always get the ambient stereo, they offer with and without but there is no downside only benefits, it is subtle enhancement that is free!

The 51 Gotterdammerung from Testament label is from 1st season of New Bayreuth re-opening, essential wagner document in great sound.....Astrid soars as brunnhilde


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## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> In case you were wondering if you order from Pristine XR always get the ambient stereo, they offer with and without but there is no downside only benefits, it is subtle enhancement that is free!
> 
> The 51 Gotterdammerung from Testament label is from 1st season of New Bayreuth re-opening, essential wagner document in great sound.....Astrid soars as brunnhilde


Planning on Ambient Stereo, thx for rec!

I keep having to rearrange my listening lineup as more and more recordings come tumbling in...!!! I want to finish this '52 Cycle, but after that the '52 Modl "Tristan" and now the '51 Gott are probably next in line... An embarrassment of riches that keep growing! 

I will say the more time I make for Wagner listening, the better life is!


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## DarkAngel

^^^ Valhalla awaits for those worthy to enter, continue your quest.....


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## Marschallin Blair

*


DarkAngel said:



Birgit who? 

As you know my favorite Isolde performance is the intensely emotional Martha Modl from 52 Tristan Bayreuth......
I must be content with 38 Tristan Bodanzky from MET boxset for now, the 37 would be very expensive CD purchase.

Click to expand...

*









_WE-LL_. . . I love Karajan's perfervid and incandescent conducting on his Bayreuth _Tristan_, to be sure; and I really like some of Modl's dramatic phrasings and inflections (especially at the end of Act I)- but I'm not so terribly down with that lack of piercing-platinum, high-end sheen that she has.

I don't know.

I'm just 'high maintenance' that way. _;D_


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## Marschallin Blair

*


DarkAngel said:



^^^ Valhalla awaits for those worthy to enter, continue your quest.....

Click to expand...

*









Fortune Empress of the World favors the brave.

And Wotan put a hard heart in your breast.

- You 'know' what you have to do.

_;D_


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## Woodduck

Marschallin Blair said:


> _WE-LL_. . . I love Karajan's perfervid and incandescent conducting on his Bayreuth _Tristan_, to be sure; and I really like some of Modl's dramatic phrasings and inflections (especially at the end of Act I)- but I'm not so terribly down with that lack of piercing-platinum, high-end sheen that she has.
> 
> I don't know.
> 
> I'm just 'high maintenance' that way. _;D_


If we could combine Modl's gothic intensity with Flagstad's vocal opulence, we'd have the perfect Isolde. But for a full-length opera, Kirsten wears better for me; listening to Modl tires my throat muscles. Now if we only had the entire 1933 live Met performance from Frida Leider - the one she capped off with this transcendental "Liebestod":


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## Barbebleu

Margaret Price's liebestod from the Kleiber Tristan is among the best I have ever heard, and I've heard a few. I'm not particularly bothered that this is the product of the studio and she might have had difficulties singing it live, it is ravishing.


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## DarkAngel

Woodduck said:


> *If we could combine Modl's gothic intensity with Flagstad's vocal opulence, we'd have the perfect Isolde*. But for a full-length opera, Kirsten wears better for me; listening to Modl tires my throat muscles. Now if we only had the entire 1933 live Met performance from Frida Leider - the one she capped off with this transcendental "Liebestod":


It is great fortune to have both Modl and Flagstad each making a compelling case for their individual style of Isolde, there is much to learn from each performance, if anything you have to admire the boldness of Modl to amp up the emotional temperature to such a degree, I suspect many critics at the time did not approve (also surprised Karajan went along)

Note to MB......the 37 Bodnazky Tristan for IP will soon be mine, also I love GoT series


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## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> It is great fortune to have both Modl and Flagstad each making a compelling case for their individual style of Isolde, there is much to learn from each performance, if anything you have to admire the boldness of Modl to amp up the emotional temperature to such a degree, I suspect many critics at the time did not approve (also surprised Karajan went along)
> 
> Note to MB......the 37 Bodnazky Tristan for IP will soon be mine, also I love GoT series


Martha Modl was considered a powerful actress and her Isolde was called "perfect" by many. Her singing has always been controversial and her voice started getting wobbly by the late '50s, after which she switched to mezzo roles, but I think acclaim for her dramatic portrayals was pretty unanimous.


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## hpowders

Woodduck said:


> Martha Modl was considered a powerful actress and her Isolde was called "perfect" by many. Her singing has always been controversial and her voice started getting wobbly by the late '50s, after which she switched to mezzo roles, but I think acclaim for her dramatic portrayals was pretty unanimous.


I have her doing Brünnhilde along with Leonie Rysanek, Ferdinand Frantz, Ludwig Suthaus and Gottlob Frick with the Vienna Philharmonic conducted by Wilhelm Fürtwängler. Legendary!!


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## DavidA

DarkAngel said:


> It is great fortune to have both Modl and Flagstad each making a compelling case for their individual style of Isolde, there is much to learn from each performance, if anything you have to admire the boldness of Modl to amp up the emotional temperature to such a degree, I suspect many critics at the time did not approve (also surprised Karajan went along)


The Modl / Karajan Tristan is a searing performance. Karajan was apparently exhausted afterwards and had to be helped from the orchestra pit. It is certainly the most intense performance on disc.


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## DarkAngel

DavidA said:


> The Modl / Karajan Tristan is a searing performance. Karajan was apparently exhausted afterwards and had to be helped from the orchestra pit. It is certainly the most intense performance on disc.










Modl & Vinay 1952


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## cheftimmyr

I came across a Tristan from 1957 on the Walhall label at a local bookstore. (Wingassen, Nilsson, Hotter; Sawallisch). I don't recall it being mentioned on this thread, although I may have forgotten in the almost 2000 posts I've read! I'm putting it in the listening line but was wondering if anyone had listened to this already and remembered if it was a worthwhile listen (sound-wise, etc).... Thx!


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## DarkAngel

cheftimmyr said:


> I came across a Tristan from 1957 on the Walhall label at a local bookstore. (Wingassen, Nilsson, Hotter; Sawallisch). I don't recall it being mentioned on this thread, although I may have forgotten in the almost 2000 posts I've read! I'm putting it in the listening line but was wondering if anyone had listened to this already and remembered if it was a worthwhile listen (sound-wise, etc).... Thx!


I have it, great buy

Finding great 1950s Bayreuth Tristans is like shooting fish in a barrel, best wagner singers in the world year after year, the Walhall eternity 57 sound is excellent, crazy cheap price at Amazon.......


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## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> I have it, great buy
> 
> Finding great 1950s Bayreuth Tristans is like shooting fish in a barrel, best wagner singers in the world year after year, the Walhall eternity 57 sound is excellent, crazy cheap price at Amazon.......


I got lucky and scored for $4 at the bookstore! The cd's didn't even feel like they had ever been removed from the case when I checked them... 

DA, did you order that Immortal Performances '37 MET "Tristan" that MB mentioned? It's been calling to me and keeps popping up... I will succumb shortly, I suspect!


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## cheftimmyr

I have completed the '52 Keilberth Ring... (I already commented on Rheingold and Walküre so I won't revisit those.) 

What a marvelous Ring Cycle! I really enjoyed Keilberth's conducting of the orchestra, a beautifully done job in my opinion. Astrid Varnay has now set the standard for which all other Brunnhilde's will be measured against for me. Brunnhilde truly soared! 

I've now heard 3 tenors sing the role of Siegfried: Windgassen (66/67 Bohm), and now Aldenhoff and Lorenz. Lorenz's voice seemed to open up significantly during Gotterdamerung which helped, for me. I'll probably have to listen to many more Siegfried performances before I can have a well rounded opinion, but for now Windgassen still tops my preference, followed by Lorenz. (Any suggestions from others on must-listen-to Siegfried's would be welcome!) 

The awakening of Brunnhilde in the last Act of Siegfried was awe-inspiring. The emotional intensity about made my chest explode; really powerful. Siegfrieds Funeral March was beautiful, and words fail me to describe how captivating Brunnhildes Immolation came across for me. 

The further I venture into the world of Wagner, the more captivating (and expensive :devil each step becomes... Truly magical!

Up Next: '51 Knapp Götterdämmerung (Testament)... or maybe HvK '52 Tristan...


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## interestedin

cheftimmyr said:


> (Any suggestions from others on must-listen-to Siegfried's would be welcome!)


That's simple: Melchior and Svanholm.


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## gardibolt

You haven't lived till you've heard Melchior's Siegfried.


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## DarkAngel

^^^ We have it so easy, could you imagine getting up to manually flip 78 rpm record 58 times to hear complete Tristan

I have that CD you mention, great performances but it "sounds" like a 1936 recording


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## cheftimmyr

gardibolt said:


> You haven't lived till you've heard Melchior's Siegfried.


I'm seeing some different labels of 1937 Bodanzky MET "Siegfried" with Melchior and Flagstad; is there a label anyone recommends for best sound quality? "Archipel: Desert Island Collection", "Naxos Historical" and "Music & Arts" all showing up... That for the recs!


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## DarkAngel

cheftimmyr said:


> I'm seeing some different labels of 1937 Bodanzky MET "Siegfried" with Melchior and Flagstad; is there a label anyone recommends for best sound quality? "Archipel: Desert Island Collection", "Naxos Historical" and "Music & Arts" all showing up... That for the recs!


You can save money and get Naxos historical ring boxset which includes the 37 Bodanzky Siegfried........


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## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> You can save money and get Naxos historical ring boxset which includes the 37 Bodanzky Siegfried........


Ahhh?!?!?!?! ANOTHER Ring Cycle to add to the list! I beg thee, stop! (I know... I asked)


----------



## interestedin

cheftimmyr said:


> Ahhh?!?!?!?! ANOTHER Ring Cycle to add to the list! I beg thee, stop! (I know... I asked)


Here's ANOTHER one including the 37 Bodanzky Siegfried:


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## Woodduck

gardibolt said:


> You haven't lived till you've heard Melchior's Siegfried.


Melchior and Flagstad, in the late 1930s, made a studio recording of the _Gotterdammerung_ prologue duet, "Zu neuen Taten" (easy to find on several labels) which is just about the most stunning exhibition of sheer vocal health imaginable. You'll never again hear that music sung with such brilliance and freedom.


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## Barbebleu

Apropos of nothing, this is an interesting article.

http://www.gramophone.co.uk/editorial/the-gramophone-collection-wagners-ring


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## interestedin

Woodduck said:


> Melchior and Flagstad, in the late 1930s, made a studio recording of the _Gotterdammerung_ prologue duet, "Zu neuen Taten" (easy to find on several labels) which is just about the most stunning exhibition of sheer vocal health imaginable. You'll never again hear that music sung with such brilliance and freedom.


Yes, this one is really stunning.






What a shame there are no more Flagstad/Melchior Götterdämmerungs. We have so many Tristans but to my knowledge only one Götterdämmerung (or rather just excerpts of it), with Furtwängler 1937...


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## cheftimmyr

interestedin said:


> Here's ANOTHER one including the 37 Bodanzky Siegfried:
> 
> View attachment 83470


Thoughts from anyone on this set? Sound quality? Variety of Performances included?? Thx


----------



## gardibolt

Barbebleu said:


> Apropos of nothing, this is an interesting article.
> 
> http://www.gramophone.co.uk/editorial/the-gramophone-collection-wagners-ring


I thought that was a pretty good cross section of the various readily-available Rings.


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## Barbebleu

cheftimmyr said:


> Thoughts from anyone on this set? Sound quality? Variety of Performances included?? Thx


Not the best recording quality you'll ever hear. The voices are a bit far back in the mix and Siegfried's entrance in Act 1 is to all intents and purposes inaudible. I don't think Melchior is in absolutely his best voice and he is very free and easy with his accuracy in respect of tempi. He gets ahead and behind of the beat on numerous occasions. Not a first choice by a long chalk.


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## Barbebleu

Ive just finished the Moralt Rheingold from 1948. Oooh, this is nice. Everyone sings like they want you to hear every word. Frantz is fabulous and Potzer(Loge), Vogel(Alberich) and Wernigk(Mime) are excellent. Moralt gets the VSO going at a nice pace and they are very good apart from a couple of mishaps from the brass section. Voices are high in the mix but this is not a problem because everyone sounds pretty good. Lovely technique all round. I am now looking forward to Walkure. If it's as good as Rheingold I'm in for a treat.


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## DarkAngel

^^^ the sound quality gets better in Moralt Walkure and later operas, get to hear Frantz's dark voiced Wotan (soon to be on 50 Furtwangler Ring also) and also Grob Prandl's brunnhilde in Siegfried & Gotterdammerung


----------



## Itullian

I couldn't take the sound quality of the early operas, so I skipped it.
And it wasn't Bayreuth. :tiphat:


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> ^^^ the sound quality gets better in Moralt Walkure and later operas, get to hear Frantz's dark voiced Wotan (soon to be on 50 Furtwangler Ring also) and also Grob Prandl's brunnhilde in Siegfried & Gotterdammerung


I've got the Gebhardt remix and Rheingold sounds fine so if Walkure has had the Gebhardt treatment I'll be extremely happy. I think Frantz is an extremely good Wotan. More baritonal than Hotter but but more bass than say Adam or Fischer-Dieskau.


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## cheftimmyr

In the mail.... Looking forward to checking it out once it arrives... Thx for the rec MB... one of the more high dollar recordings i've purchased but I hear good things; got spoiled on those Myto & Walhall pickups!

Will also be the first full opera I hear Melchior in... Should be good!!!


----------



## interestedin

cheftimmyr said:


> In the mail.... Looking forward to checking it out once it arrives... Thx for the rec MB... one of the more high dollar recordings i've purchased but I hear good things; got spoiled on those Myto & Walhall pickups!


This Immortalperformances set is a very fine Tristan.

But not as good as the cheaper 1936 set where you can hear Melchior's and Flagstad's voices in better sound (although not the orchestra.)


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## cheftimmyr

interestedin said:


> This Immortalperformances set is a very fine Tristan.
> 
> But not as good as the cheaper 1936 set where you can hear Melchior's and Flagstad's voices in better sound (although not the orchestra.)
> 
> View attachment 83546


It's in the "purchase" line.... Along with the Furtwangler from Prestige


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## interestedin

Great  

I wish I could delete parts of my memory..then I could listen to all those recordings for the first and most exciting time again :angel:


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## gardibolt

Was just listening to Max Schillings' ancient recordings of orchestral excerpts from Tristan und Isolde. Really terrific stuff though sound quality is a bit crackly (I think Marston did the transfers from the 1920s 78s). Schillings was a nasty piece of work but he knew his Wagner.


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## gardibolt

And neither opera nor Wagner, but perhaps of interest to folks here, I am listening to Hans Hotter's rendition of Winterreise from Opera Depot and it's quite wonderful. Excellent sound and Hotter is well-miked, capturing a lot of nuance that we know well from his Wotans.


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## Barbebleu

gardibolt said:


> And neither opera nor Wagner, but perhaps of interest to folks here, I am listening to Hans Hotter's rendition of Winterreise from Opera Depot and it's quite wonderful. Excellent sound and Hotter is well-miked, capturing a lot of nuance that we know well from his Wotans.


That's the one with the two different Winterreise's isn't it? Fantastic recordings at a bargain price. He was a wonderful interpreter of lieder and these two versions are quite excellent.


----------



## gardibolt

Yes. I was listening to the 1976 version; I have them split apart on my iPod.


----------



## cheftimmyr

DA, should I be getting the Tannhauser (Melchior/Flagstad) and Die Walkure (Melchior/Lawrence/Flagstad) on the Pristine site in addition to all the other rings (Furt/Krauss), Tristan and Parsifal???


----------



## DarkAngel

cheftimmyr said:


> DA, should I be getting the Tannhauser (Melchior/Flagstad) and Die Walkure (Melchior/Lawrence/Flagstad) on the Pristine site in addition to all the other rings (Furt/Krauss), Tristan and Parsifal???


The Walkure for sure, amazing sound quality and for me more desirable of those two choices, in the long run those who enter the halls of Valhalla will want all Pristine XR Wagner recordings.......


----------



## gardibolt

Marjorie Lawrence is I think my favorite Sieglinde. The Pristine Walküre is a must even though not technically part of a cycle.


----------



## interestedin

You will find the 1940 Leinsdorf Walküre on the MET Wagner box, too. The one with the 1937 Siegfried and other performances..


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## Barbebleu

That's the '49 Moralt Walkure done. Wow! Treptow and Konetzni are fantastic as the Walsung twins. Frantz and Braun are superb as Wotan and Brunnhilde. Moralt conjures wonders from the VSO. This is a very, very fine Walkure and as I approach Siegfried I am looking forward to hearing what Treptow does with the part and if Grob-Prandl is better than Braun, as has been mooted, then I am assured of another listening delight. Why I waited so long to listen to this is a mystery to me. My loss. 

fun fact: Moralt was Richard Strauss's nephew.


----------



## howlingfantods

gardibolt said:


> And neither opera nor Wagner, but perhaps of interest to folks here, I am listening to Hans Hotter's rendition of Winterreise from Opera Depot and it's quite wonderful. Excellent sound and Hotter is well-miked, capturing a lot of nuance that we know well from his Wotans.


I haven't heard those but Hotter's recording with Gerald Moore from the early fifties is a classic of the repertoire, easily my favorite Winterreise.


----------



## cheftimmyr

Just finished Karajan '52 "Tristan" (Modl/Vinay)... This was a great listen! My only hangup was Act 1, there was a recurring "buzz" that was really annoying to me; I tried it through various apparatus to make sure it wasn't my headphones. Sure enough, Acts 2 & 3 were "buzz free". Act 3 the sound in general was noticeably better (I need to check CD1 to see if there's a scratch or something).

Regardless, by the time Act 2, Scene 2 began with Vinay & Modl singing, I was enthralled... I really thought Modl sounded beautiful as Isolde in this recording. I haven't heard HvK do any other Wagner yet, so this was a great first time for me to hear him conduct. The orchestra did get obscenely loud at one point (Act 3, Marke and Melot approaching Kareol) where I could only guess what was being sung; minor grievance but noticeable. 

All in all, a great cast. Hotter's Kurwenal was emotionally charged; hearing Uhde as Melot was cool too. 

Another keeper that I'll be revisiting! 

(Still waiting for '55 Keilberth Testament Ring in the mail, it's been 3 weeks... ugh!)


----------



## gardibolt

Barbebleu said:


> That's the '49 Moralt Walkure done. Wow! Treptow and Konetzni are fantastic as the Walsung twins. Frantz and Braun are superb as Wotan and Brunnhilde. Moralt conjures wonders from the VSO. This is a very, very fine Walkure and as I approach Siegfried I am looking forward to hearing what Treptow does with the part and if Grob-Prandl is better than Braun, as has been mooted, then I am assured of another listening delight. Why I waited so long to listen to this is a mystery to me. My loss.
> 
> fun fact: Moralt was Richard Strauss's nephew.


That Moralt Ring is a wonderful discovery; had it not been for this thread I never would have found it.


----------



## Barbebleu

gardibolt said:


> That Moralt Ring is a wonderful discovery; had it not been for this thread I never would have found it.


Same here. I've just ordered the Moralt Parsifal on Amazon. Looking forward to hearing that too.


----------



## DarkAngel

I had mentioned previously that this Tristan CD set had much promise with a rare Isolde by Astrid, but the recording is much too hot and high end notes are badly distorted, operadepot had another 60% sale so I took a flyer to see if their version was from different source without the distortion.....we shall see


----------



## interestedin

Interesting.. the sample doesn't sound different from the Andromeda discs.

But no more Tristan for me today, tomorrow I'll be seeing my second live Tristan in five days :lol:


----------



## DarkAngel

interestedin said:


> Interesting.. the sample doesn't sound different from the Andromeda discs.
> But no more Tristan for me today, tomorrow I'll be seeing my second live Tristan in five days :lol:


The Andromeda Tristan has very bad distortion at peak vocal climaxes especially the final liebestod, the sound sample at operadepot contains a pretty good high vocal climax with no distortion so I have my fingers crossed

Something came in my mail today from Canada.......


----------



## gardibolt

Nice. We expect a full report, DA.


----------



## Barbebleu

That's the Moralt '49 Siegfried finished. Frantz is now jockeying for No. 1 position with Hotter as the best Wotan I have listened to. Treptow is very good as Siegfried but I think I preferred him as Siegmund. Grob-Prandl is excellent as Brunnhilde and probably just has the edge on Braun. Again, Moralt and the VSO are a joy. A very enjoyable Ring cycle so far. Next up, Gotterdammerung. I shall report back.


----------



## DarkAngel

^^^^ I also prefer Grob Prandl as brunnhilde not only in the Moralt Ring but also compared to some other 1940s wagner operas I have heard Braun in.....

As for Frantz there is a reason he was a favorite of Furtwangler (but I am still a Hotter man)


----------



## interestedin

Not yet old but perhaps one day historical:









Was wondering if anyone here has a positive or negative opinion about it. I heard Gould's Tristan tonight at the opera - and was really impressed by that voice!


----------



## DarkAngel

Presto UK currently has sale on Testament label, 55 Keliberth Ring now $113 and shipping to USA only $3.60, this is about the cheapest you will find for new set


----------



## Barbebleu

This just arrived today. I shall report when I eventually get round to listening to it.


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## DarkAngel

*56 Bayreuth Knap Ring* - we don't talk too much about this Ring but Knap's 1st full ring at Bayreuth (51 was split with Karajan) is truly a great one. You get a different orchestral style with Knap vs Keilberth, both work well in their own way and further add to variety for owners of multiple 1950s rings. Most of the iconic main singers from 55 carry over to 56, but a few very minor roles get new voices to again add some variety:

Erda - Jean Madeira
Loge - Ludwig Suthaus
Fafner - Arnold von Mill etc etc

I previously had the Music & Arts boxset (pix 2) but the newer Orfeo boxset is really excellent clean sound and a noticeable step above, not cheap but you do get a great enhanced booklet with many cool performance photos. The 57, 58 Knap Walhall Rings are also great in all respects and cheaper to buy, would be hard to pick one of those three they are all equally great with same conductor and same core cast for main roles.......just a reminder don't forget the 56


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## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> Presto UK currently has sale on Testament label, 55 Keliberth Ring now $113 and shipping to USA only $3.60, this is about the cheapest you will find for new set


That's how I scored it... It came in the mail while I was out of town this week... Will start it ASAP!!!!


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## cheftimmyr

Also worth mentioning that Presto is running 20% off all the Orfeo label releases until June 6th as well... I'm eyeing the '64 Knap Parsifal which has been $$$ everywhere I've seen... And now the '56 Knap "Ring"... Thx DA!


----------



## DarkAngel

cheftimmyr said:


> Also worth mentioning that Presto is running 20% off all the Orfeo label releases until June 6th as well... I'm eyeing the '64 Knap Parsifal which has been $$$ everywhere I've seen... And now the '56 Knap "Ring"... Thx DA!


Good point 56 Knap Orfeo Ring boxset on sale now at Presto UK........

Also you can get the 64 Knap Parsifal cheap at operadepot's many sales.....sound may not be as good as full price Orfeo however (operadepot describes sound as excellent)


----------



## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> Good point 56 Knap Orfeo Ring boxset on sale now at Presto UK........
> 
> Also you can get the 64 Knap Parsifal cheap at operadepot's many sales.....sound may not be as good as full price Orfeo however (operadepot describes sound as excellent)


I gotta go with the better sound on that one; interested to hear Vickers as Parsifal...


----------



## DarkAngel

DarkAngel said:


> I had mentioned previously that this Tristan CD set had much promise with a rare Isolde by Astrid, but the recording is much too hot and high end notes are badly distorted, operadepot had another 60% sale so I took a flyer to see if their version was from different source without the distortion.....we shall see


Unfortunately the operadepot is another miss for a different reason, the high notes are intact without distortion but the sound is very soft and opaque (as if heavy filtering) and much detail has been obscured, on top of that I have to say Jochum is not a great conductor for Tristan..........

The best choice we have for Astrid as Isolde remains the 55 MET Kempe live with great cast and conductor (better than Jochum) plus much better sound than the two versions above.......










Also don't forget the cheap 10CD boxset of mostly wagner, Astrid at her peak singing years


----------



## cheftimmyr

Well, I finally pulled the trigger on my first Pristine order...

Krauss Ring Cycle (1953)

Furtwangler Ring Cycle (1950, La Scala)

Furtwangler "Tristan" (1952; Flagstad, Suthaus) 

Krauss "Parsifal" (1953; Vinay, Modl)

Kempe "Die Meistersinger" (Frantz, Grummer)

Leinsdorf "Die Walküre" (Flagstad, Melchior)

And not Wagner, but to get 10 items on the order I got some Callas: Tosca, I Puritani, Norma, & La Traviata... 

AND... I ordered the '64 Knap Parsifal on Presto 20% off sale... 

I can't wait to get my hands on all these recordings, hopefully my marriage is still intact...


----------



## DarkAngel

^^^^ Great news, if you ordered discs allow about 3 weeks for delivery to USA, you are about to enter the halls of Valhalla

Regarding taking delivery without spouse alarm, the "standard" procedure is deliver to work address and then smuggle back home to the man cave


----------



## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> ^^^^ Great news, if you ordered discs allow about 3 weeks for delivery to USA, you are about to enter the halls of Valhalla
> 
> *Regarding taking delivery without spouse alarm, the "standard" procedure is deliver to work address and then smuggle back home to the man cave*


That's exactly how it went down.... Hopefully enough time will pass that when she discovers and asks when I got them, I can say "Oh, I'e had those for a while now..." :angel:


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## Barbebleu

cheftimmyr said:


> That's exactly how it went down.... Hopefully enough time will pass that when she discovers and asks when I got them, I can say "Oh, I'e had those for a while now..." :angel:


I fear my spouse would be questioning the depleted bank account with some vehemence!


----------



## gardibolt

I got to 10 items by individually ordering the operas of the Ring cycles. But I like the cut of your jib. And the 20% discount does help a lot.


----------



## Jeffrey Smith

Barbebleu said:


> I fear my spouse would be questioning the depleted bank account with some vehemence!


This one of those times when being a confirmed bachelor like myself is a definite advantage.


----------



## amfortas

Barbebleu said:


> I fear my spouse would be questioning the depleted bank account with some vehemence!


I would always hoodwink my wife by telling her I spent it on a mistress.

Well, my ex-wife, actually.


----------



## cheftimmyr

gardibolt said:


> I got to 10 items by individually ordering the operas of the Ring cycles. But I like the cut of your jib. And the 20% discount does help a lot.


That was one strategy, but buying the Ring Cycles as complete sets has a discount built into it as well... so it was like double-discounts... I couldn't stop myself....


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## cheftimmyr

Most of the way through the Knap '51 Gotterdammerung... What a great mono-recording! The orchestra plays beautiful and after listening to a lot of Keilberth lately, it's nice to hear Knap with the baton. There's a certain "grandness" that comes across which is a joy to experience! I have one act left to finish... looking forward to hearing Astrid's "Brunnhilde" bring it home!

Not historical recording, but I was able to attend my first live performance of Siegfried last night which makes it the first Wagner opera i've seen in person. A night to remember for me (and the Mrs!)...

Next up is the Immortal Performances "Tristan" which the postman dropped off the other day (Flagstaff, Melchior; Bodanzky 1937 MET).


----------



## DarkAngel

> Most of the way through the Knap '51 Gotterdammerung... What a great mono-recording! The orchestra plays beautiful and after listening to a lot of Keilberth lately, it's nice to hear Knap with the baton. There's a certain "grandness" that comes across which is a joy to experience! I have one act left to finish... looking forward to hearing Astrid's "Brunnhilde" bring it home!


^^^^ Too bad there is no complete 51 Ring available only great pieces, there was much experimenting going on since this is great re-opening of Bayreuth after war, new generation of singers making their mark with Karajan. Knap both conducting in debut Ring. Also sound engineers had new technology that was being sorted out, by the time of Gotterdammerung great results were being achieved.......

Also there are great 51 bayreuth parsifals, meisters from that first season. I recommend getting this 3rd act of 51 walkure CD also in great sound for very cheap used......












> Not historical recording, but I was able to attend my first live performance of Siegfried last night which makes it the first Wagner opera i've seen in person. A night to remember for me (and the Mrs!)...


Perhaps there is hope you will escape the wrath of your "fricka" when she discovers the massive visa bill this month ha ha


----------



## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> ^^^^ Too bad there is no complete 51 Ring available only great pieces, there was much experimenting going on since this is great re-opening of Bayreuth after war, new generation of singers making their mark with Karajan. Knap both conducting in debut Ring. Also sound engineers had new technology that was being sorted out, by the time of Gotterdammerung great results were being achieved.......
> 
> *Also there are great 51 bayreuth parsifals, meisters from that first season. I recommend getting this 3rd act of 51 walkure CD also in great sound for very cheap used......*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Perhaps there is hope you will escape the wrath of your "fricka" when she discovers the massive visa bill this month ha ha *


Done! Snagged on Amazon for pennies, thx!

I still have yet to listen fully to Meistersinger which I know I need to get into... the Meister you're referring to would be the HvK and the Parsifal with Knap both from 1951?

As an aside, my wife made it through Siegfried fine. We spent the drive out to Hou talking about the story of the Ring which really helped her connect with the action on stage that night. When it was over I said "that was great, right?", her reply "it was good, Act 1 was hard though, they just kept singing about a sword over and over..." :lol:


----------



## DarkAngel

> I still have yet to listen fully to Meistersinger which I know I need to get into... the Meister you're referring to would be the HvK and the Parsifal with Knap both from 1951?


Yes those are the ones, they sound OK but so far Pristine XR or any other top tier sound shop has not done a remaster, at least they are very cheap......and the 51 HVK meister has rare wagner appearance of Schwarzkopf as Eva


----------



## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> Yes those are the ones, they sound OK but so far Pristine XR or any other top tier sound shop has not done a remaster, at least they are very cheap......and the 51 HVK meister has rare wagner appearance of Schwarzkopf as Eva


I finally listened to Die Meistersinger today. For some reason it's been the one Wagner work I've been putting off probably because so much I've read about it being too long, etc etc etc...

While not historic, I only have the Kubelik in my library BUT the Kempe from Pristine will be here presumably in the next few weeks. I thoroughly enjoyed the opera. Definitely a different side of Wagner which was enjoyable for me to hear. The few choral passages were beautiful, the quintet I'll be revisiting again and again, as well as Walthers Prize song.

Apart from the HvK mentioned, are there any other historical Meister's I should be looking for? I don't recall reading a diverse number of recommendations.

Also, as this was my first listen to the opera, are there any particular Sachs or Walther performances that are must haves (historical or modern if that's permitted as well). I enjoyed Stewart and Konya but have nothing else to compare to as of yet.

(If this is the wrong thread for this query my apologies, but everyone on this thread has been so helpful and it was semi-historic related so I figured it was ok.)


----------



## Jeffrey Smith

I got to know Meistersinger through an LP incarnation of this set (which I now have)








It was actually a studio recording. There seem to be three Kna. live recordings in different packagings on Amazon: Bayreuth 52, Munich 55, Bayreuth 60, so take your pick.

The cover of the LP set btw was this.


----------



## cheftimmyr

Jeffrey Smith said:


> I got to know Meistersinger through an LP incarnation of this set (which I now have)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was actually a studio recording. There seem to be three Kna. live recordings in different packagings on Amazon: Bayreuth 52, Munich 55, Bayreuth 60, so take your pick.
> 
> The cover of the LP set btw was this.


Sweet, I'll look those up; thanks Jeffrey!


----------



## Woodduck

cheftimmyr said:


> Apart from the HvK mentioned, are there any other historical Meister's I should be looking for? I don't recall reading a diverse number of recommendations.
> 
> Also, as this was my first listen to the opera, are there any particular Sachs or Walther performances that are must haves (historical or modern if that's permitted as well). I enjoyed Stewart and Konya but have nothing else to compare to as of yet.
> 
> (If this is the wrong thread for this query my apologies, but everyone on this thread has been so helpful and it was semi-historic related so I figured it was ok.)


Everyone should have the historic excerpts recorded in the '20s and '30s by Friedrich Schorr (Sachs), Elisabeth Schumann (Eva), Lauritz Melchior (Walther), and a few other singers. Schorr may still be the vocal standard for Sachs, and the quintet is the most sublime ever recorded. Here it is:


----------



## cheftimmyr

Woodduck said:


> Everyone should have the historic excerpts recorded in the '20s and '30s by Friedrich Schorr (Sachs), Elisabeth Schumann (Eva), Lauritz Melchior (Walther), and a few other singers. Schorr may still be the vocal standard for Sachs, and the quintet is the most sublime ever recorded. Here it is:


Are there specific CD's on Amazon with those recordings? I'll start looking! Thx


----------



## Woodduck

cheftimmyr said:


> Are there specific CD's on Amazon with those recordings? I'll start looking! Thx


I recall them being collected on EMI, but they've appeared on other labels. Naxos?


----------



## gardibolt

Is there a handy list somewhere of what bits and pieces are available on CD from the 1951 Bayreuth festival?


----------



## Barbebleu

gardibolt said:


> Is there a handy list somewhere of what bits and pieces are available on CD from the 1951 Bayreuth festival?


Not that I'm aware, but as far as I know there are complete Rheingold/Karajan, Siegfried/Karajan, Gotterdammerung/Knappertsbusch, Meistersinger/Karajan and the above Walkure Act 3/Knappertsbusch. Haven't tracked down the rest of Walkure - yet!


----------



## DarkAngel

> Is there a handy list somewhere of what bits and pieces are available on CD from the 1951 Bayreuth festival?





Barbebleu said:


> Not that I'm aware, but as far as I know there are complete Rheingold/Karajan, Siegfried/Karajan, Gotterdammerung/Knappertsbusch, Meistersinger/Karajan and the above Walkure Act 3/Knappertsbusch. Haven't tracked down the rest of Walkure - yet!


Also a 51 Parsifal by Knap at Bayreuth, available very cheap on ZYX label at Amazon...........


----------



## DarkAngel

Woodduck said:


> Everyone should have the historic excerpts recorded in the '20s and '30s by Friedrich Schorr (Sachs), Elisabeth Schumann (Eva), Lauritz Melchior (Walther), and a few other singers. Schorr may still be the vocal standard for Sachs, and the quintet is the most sublime ever recorded. Here it is:





> I recall them being collected on EMI, but they've appeared on other labels. Naxos?


Nice youtube sample, you can get the 36 MET Bodanzky Meistersinger with Schorr as the wise Sachs and Elisabeth Rethberg as Eva and Rene Maison as Walther for a price, golden age of wagner at the MET










cheftimmyr.....should be pleased with his 56 Kempe Meister coming from Pristine XR, love Grummer as Eva and dark voiced Frantz a fine Sachs, listening to that quintet right now


----------



## cheftimmyr

Woodduck said:


> Everyone should have the historic excerpts recorded in the '20s and '30s by Friedrich Schorr (Sachs), Elisabeth Schumann (Eva), Lauritz Melchior (Walther), and a few other singers. Schorr may still be the vocal standard for Sachs, and the quintet is the most sublime ever recorded. Here it is:


This is all I can find on Amazon, does this look correct? Not sure about the sound quality on Pearl label, I don't have anything from them yet....


----------



## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> Nice youtube sample, you can get the 36 MET Bodanzky Meistersinger with Schorr as the wise Sachs and Elisabeth Rethberg as Eva and Rene Maison as Walther for a price, golden age of wagner at the MET
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *cheftimmyr.....should be pleased with his 56 Kempe Meister coming from Pristine XR, love Grummer as Eva and dark voiced Frantz a fine Sachs, listening to that quintet right now*


DA, I'm already impatient waiting on the Pristine order to ship... Do you recommend the '36 Bodanzky MET Broadcast over the '39 Leinsdorf with Schorr, Jessner and Kullman (see below)? These Immortal Performances aren't cheap...


----------



## DarkAngel

^^^^ Can't comment since I own neither one, you are on your own there although IP website says sound is better on 39 Leinsdorf. The IP label has some very desirable historical performances, but don't expect miracles in sound improvement like Pristine XR, Richard Caniell's work corrects pitch and removes crowd noises and record clicks where possible but does not employ radical sound restoration processes (like Pristine XR)

I have only a small Immortal Performances label collection including the latest Dream Ring......


----------



## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> ^^^^ Can't comment since I own neither one, you are on your own there. The IP label has some very desirable historical performances, but don't expect miracles in sound improvement like Pristine XR, Richard Caniell's work corrects pitch and removes crowd noises and record clicks where possible but does not employ radical sound restoration processes (like Pristine XR)
> 
> I have only a small Immortal Performances label collection including the latest Dream Ring......


I'll have to see how I like the Tristan I just got from them, I got sidetracked with Knap Gott and Kubelik Meister... but at the IP prices it's a little harder to go on a major spree... How did you like the Dream Ring?

BTW, DA, I've been listening through the DragonFly and it's great! Sound is much improved...


----------



## DarkAngel

cheftimmyr said:


> I'll have to see how I like the Tristan I just got from them, I got sidetracked with Knap Gott and Kubelik Meister... but at the IP prices it's a little harder to go on a major spree... How did you like the Dream Ring?
> 
> BTW, DA, I've been listening through the DragonFly and it's great! Sound is much improved...


The sound quality of IP Dream Ring is really not much better than same Naxos versions of individual operas, the big difference is that Richard Caniell creates "composite" dream operas by sometimes combining best singers/parts from different performances into one best "dream" opera performance.....s*ome people cringe at this Frankenstein desecration of Wagner opera, ha ha*

Yes that Audioquest Dragonfly DAC is a great first step into computer audio world, big sound improvement for a very low price!


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> Also a 51 Parsifal by Knap at Bayreuth, available very cheap on ZYX label at Amazon...........


Of course. That's what I get for not looking at my own list!!


----------



## Woodduck

^^^The Pre-Raphaelite cover painting cracks me up.

"Percy, baby, you want me, don't you?"

"Wha...? What do you mean? What do you mean, _want_ you? Why are you lying on the ground? Why are you exposing your breast? Why are you looking at me like that? Um...Something isn't right. This is not right. Leave me alone! Can't you see I'm trying to enjoy a grail of grape juice?"


----------



## gardibolt

Plus neither one of them looks like Hans Knappertsbusch.


----------



## howlingfantods

cheftimmyr said:


> I finally listened to Die Meistersinger today. For some reason it's been the one Wagner work I've been putting off probably because so much I've read about it being too long, etc etc etc...
> 
> While not historic, I only have the Kubelik in my library BUT the Kempe from Pristine will be here presumably in the next few weeks. I thoroughly enjoyed the opera. Definitely a different side of Wagner which was enjoyable for me to hear. The few choral passages were beautiful, the quintet I'll be revisiting again and again, as well as Walthers Prize song.
> 
> Apart from the HvK mentioned, are there any other historical Meister's I should be looking for? I don't recall reading a diverse number of recommendations.
> 
> Also, as this was my first listen to the opera, are there any particular Sachs or Walther performances that are must haves (historical or modern if that's permitted as well). I enjoyed Stewart and Konya but have nothing else to compare to as of yet.
> 
> (If this is the wrong thread for this query my apologies, but everyone on this thread has been so helpful and it was semi-historic related so I figured it was ok.)


The Kubelik is my absolute favorite recording of Meistersinger, so don't feel like you're missing out. The live Karajan is very uneven. You get possibly the greatest Eva of all time with Elizabeth Schwazkopf but the execrable Hans Hopf as Walther. Terrific conducting and a fine Sachs with Edelmann but Hopf detracts greatly from the overall enterprise.

A perennial favorite is the Kempe--a strong contender overall in decent sound, warmly conducted, Grummer is another all time great Eva. I'm not as big a fan as many since I find Frantz a little too serious for Sachs and I'm not a big fan of Schock's Walther, but it's a good one.

The Abendroth and Knappertsbusch both have possibly the greatest Sachs in Paul Schoffler--I prefer Schoffler over Schorr but both are excellent. Both are in pretty rough sound, though--I slightly prefer the Knappertsbusch cast as a whole, but Schoffler is nearer his peak in the Abendroth.

For just listening to the greatest conducted performance, it's very worth getting Furtwangler's unfortunately incomplete recording from 1943. Not the greatest cast--I love Lorenz as Tristan or Siegfried but he's much too spicy for Walther, and Prohaska is a pretty indifferent Sachs, and the recording is missing parts of Act 1 and parts of Act 3 (including the quintet) which makes this a second or third recording to get. Wouldn't want to be without it though.

For the finest Walther, I don't think you can much improve on Konya in the Kubelik--the only performances I like as much are Ben Heppner's in the Sawallisch and Solti studio recordings, which are not "historic" but are both also worth a recommendation.


----------



## DarkAngel

Woodduck said:


> ^^^The Pre-Raphaelite cover painting cracks me up.
> 
> "Percy, baby, you want me, don't you?"
> 
> "Wha...? What do you mean? What do you mean, _want_ you? Why are you lying on the ground? Why are you exposing your breast? Why are you looking at me like that? Um...Something isn't right. This is not right. Leave me alone! Can't you see I'm trying to enjoy a grail of grape juice?"


^^^^ Kundry much too clean/civilized looking in that painting, wasn't she just wandering about in the bushes outside of Gurnemanz's hut.......also appears our perfect fool has achieved sainthood from that halo around his head, he has yet to perform his "miracles" of enlightenment in front of the assembled knights of monsalvat


----------



## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> ^^^^ Kundry much too clean/civilized looking in that painting, wasn't she just wandering about in the bushes outside of Gurnemanz's hut.......also appears our perfect fool has achieved sainthood from that halo around his head, he has yet to perform his "miracles" of enlightenment in front of the assembled knights of monsalvat


Obviously a very free fantasy, not true to the opera in any way. It's actually interesting to read - and here, to see - how Wagner's works were viewed early on. I think we needed Freud and Jung, and maybe even Schoenberg and Berg, to help us see below the surface of what is no simple morality play. _Parsifal_ is as scary as it is beautiful.


----------



## DarkAngel

howlingfantods said:


> The Abendroth and Knappertsbusch both have possibly the greatest Sachs in Paul Schoffler--I prefer Schoffler over Schorr but both are excellent. Both are in pretty rough sound, though--I slightly prefer the Knappertsbusch cast as a whole, but *Schoffler is nearer his peak in the Abendroth. *


I decided I must have the 43 Abendroth so over to Norbeck Peters Ford to place my order at heavy discount, I have had my eye on this, sound is really great for 43........










I am having deja vu from the recent "best prize song" thread, time to fill in some gaps in the collection


----------



## amfortas

Woodduck said:


> Obviously a very free fantasy, not true to the opera in any way. It's actually interesting to read - and here, to see - how Wagner's works were viewed early on.


To be fair, many of the Pre-Raphaelites, though no doubt influenced by Wagner's operas in their choice of subjects, drew on much earlier works. The painting in question, Arthur Hacker's _The Temptation of Sir Percival_, is based on Malory's _Le Morte d'Arthur_, and depicts the virtuous knight tempted by the devil in the form of a beautiful woman.


----------



## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> I decided I must have the 43 Abendroth so over to Norbeck Peters Ford to place my order at heavy discount, I have had my eye on this, sound is really great for 43........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am having deja vu from the recent "best prize song" thread, time to fill in some gaps in the collection


Glad I looked on Norpete, it's way more $$$ on Amazon... I'll head over to "Best Prize Song" thread to discover more recordings I need to add... Never ends....


----------



## DarkAngel

^^^^ Orders over $50 ship free


----------



## Woodduck

amfortas said:


> To be fair, many of the Pre-Raphaelites, though no doubt influenced by Wagner's operas in their choice of subjects, drew on much earlier works. The painting in question, Arthur Hacker's _The Temptation of Sir Percival_, is based on Malory's _Le Morte d'Arthur_, and depicts the virtuous knight tempted by the devil in the form of a beautiful woman.


Thanks for that info, amfortas. I knew that just couldn't be Kundry. It's probably Fannie or Maude.


----------



## Barbebleu

'Vollendet das ewige Werk'. That's the Moralt Ring completed. Gotterdammerung was wonderful as anticipated. Gertrude Grob-Prandl was more than adequate as Brunnhilde. Her top notes were a little strained but pretty good overall. Ludwig Weber and Adolf Vogel were first class as Hagen and Alberich and Karl Kamann excelled as Gunther. Pride of place goes to Gunther Treptow as Siegfried. Fantastically well sung and, following the translation, brilliantly acted vocally. Moralt had a real feel for the overall pace and had the VSO playing its heart out. Overall a very beautifully sung Ring Cycle. 

One curiosity though. Although each act took place on three consecutive nights Gutrune was sung by Hilde Konetzni in Acts 1 and 2 but was replaced by Judith Hellwig for Act 3. Both were excellent. I have looked on the net for the reason for this without success. I have a couple of theories for this change. A) Konetzni was ill and unable to sing in the third act or B) this was the first complete, uncut post-war Ring and one of the casualties of any cuts is usually Gutrunes short scene in the Gibichung Hall just after Siegfrieds murder. My theory is that Konetzni had never sung this scene and because it was being recorded did not feel happy about learning that scene and singing it for posterity. Hellwig did know it and stepped in to save the day. Wouldn't that be nice if it were true?! Next up Tannhauser, New York 1941. I'll be Bach!!


----------



## Figleaf

cheftimmyr said:


> This is all I can find on Amazon, does this look correct? Not sure about the sound quality on Pearl label, I don't have anything from them yet....
> 
> View attachment 84194


I haven't heard that disc unfortunately, but I do have a lot of Pearl CDs because they were probably the most widely available historic label when I could afford to buy CDs for the first time in the mid 90s. They sound nice: fresh and clear, not over filtered. Provided you don't mind a tiny bit of hiss, the sound quality should be absolutely acceptable, assuming that the source material is of average audio quality for a studio recording of the period.

The only Schorr recital I have is on Lebendige Vergangenheit, and is superb- and none the worse for focusing on his remarkable Lieder recordings!


----------



## cheftimmyr

This beauty came today... Scored off the presto music sale... Have yet to hear Vickers as Parsifal, looking forward to it... My Wagner listening has been negligent the last few days so I'm reappropriating more time ASAP!


----------



## Barbebleu

cheftimmyr said:


> This beauty came today... Scored off the presto music sale... Have yet to hear Vickers as Parsifal, looking forward to it... My Wagner listening has been negligent the last few days so I'm reappropriating more time ASAP!
> 
> View attachment 84397


Good choice. Knappertsbusch and Vickers, great combination.


----------



## DarkAngel

cheftimmyr said:


> This beauty came today... Scored off the presto music sale... Have yet to hear Vickers as Parsifal, looking forward to it... My Wagner listening has been negligent the last few days so I'm reappropriating more time ASAP!
> 
> View attachment 84397


We thought you had forgotten us, we need the fresh blood to buy buy buy so we can relive your Wagner discoveries!

Probably worth the extra money for Orfeo vs operadepot versions, the last Parsifal by Knap at Bayreuth 1951-64, a string of magnificent performances that will stand the test of time sung by singers that are rightly considered legends to be enjoyed by all future generation...........


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> We thought you had forgotten us, we need the fresh blood to buy buy buy so we can relive your Wagner discoveries!
> 
> Probably worth the extra money for Orfeo vs operadepot versions, the last Parsifal by Knap at Bayreuth 1951-64, a string of magnificent performances that will stand the test of time sung by singers that are rightly considered legends to be enjoyed by all future generation...........


And we still need that elusive '55 one to complete the set. Well I do anyway!


----------



## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> We thought you had forgotten us, we need the fresh blood to buy buy buy so we can relive your Wagner discoveries!
> 
> Probably worth the extra money for Orfeo vs operadepot versions, the last Parsifal by Knap at Bayreuth 1951-64, a string of magnificent performances that will stand the test of time sung by singers that are rightly considered legends to be enjoyed by all future generation...........


Never fear! Sometimes work gets demanding, especially when you are the owner!

I've had this sitting around unopened and finally cracked the plastic last night and read through the booklet... The '51 Knap Parsifal is the one included so, methinks, I'll be listening to a few Parsifal's soon! And then there's the Testament '55 Ring burning a hole on my shelf!


----------



## Pugg

It's not as historic as you lot talking about, but; look .......Christmas is early this year for me.
Wooden box with near mint vinyl, the first complete Solti ring complete .

​


----------



## DarkAngel

^^^^ That vinyl Solti Ring boxset is so cool Pugg, would love to see all the artwork and info books for each opera, a 3D artwork label on outer box so classy

It does require a lot of trips to turntable to play a complete opera at only 20-25 minutes of music per side of LP record, but a labor of love blessed by the mighty opera gods........


----------



## Pugg

DarkAngel said:


> ^^^^ That vinyl Solti Ring boxset is so cool Pugg, would love to see all the artwork and info books for each opera, a 3D artwork label on outer box so classy
> 
> It does require a lot of trips to turntable to play a complete opera at only 20-25 minutes of music per side of LP record, but a labor of love blessed by the mighty opera gods........


Those libretto's are so lavish D.A , strong paper and high-gloss pictures .
It's truly a work of art :tiphat:


----------



## cheftimmyr

Pugg said:


> It's not as historic as you lot talking about, but; look .......Christmas is early this year for me.
> Wooden box with near mint vinyl, the first complete Solti ring complete .
> 
> ​


That looks gorgeous!


----------



## Pugg

cheftimmyr said:


> That looks gorgeous!


It is, believe me, it's got a "come and look at me" place in our music room.


----------



## Barbebleu

Pugg said:


> It's not as historic as you lot talking about, but; look .......Christmas is early this year for me.
> Wooden box with near mint vinyl, the first complete Solti ring complete .
> 
> ​


I sold my set on eBay about a year ago. I got £140 for it. It was a bit of a mixed feeling selling it. It was my first ever Wagner purchase thirty plus years ago but after I went cd I never played it and only kept it for sentimental reasons. It did look good but only occasionally did I look at it and the money went on other musical purchases like more Ring cycles!! I did also get a large format book of all the Rackham illustrations for the Ring that were used in the Solti wooden case libretti.

I very rarely play my vinyl and usually only if it's something that I have never been able to replace in a digital format. Yes, some may say I'm bonkers but really the most important thing is the music. If I could unload my vinyl Karajan, Bohm, Furtwangler, Boulez, Goodall and Janowski Rings I wouldn't be too distressed.


----------



## DarkAngel

At first I thought that 3D texture on outer boxset was just a decorative scrolling but I can now see it is the purifying flames of the immolation scence from Gotterdammerung - the twilight of the gods, I can hear the redemption theme now as the ring is returned to rheinmaidens and a new day dawns for mankind..........a lustworthy object of desire!

Cheftimmyr is getting crazy ideas but his wife would kill him (again), ha ha..........

Wonder why there are both navy blue/silver and olive green/gold outer box colors for Solti Ring?


----------



## gardibolt

cheftimmyr said:


> This beauty came today... Scored off the presto music sale... Have yet to hear Vickers as Parsifal, looking forward to it... My Wagner listening has been negligent the last few days so I'm reappropriating more time ASAP!
> 
> View attachment 84397


That reminds me, I have that set but I don't think I've listened to it yet...and certainly haven't listened to it carefully enough to express an opinion on it. So I need to do that.


----------



## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> At first I thought that 3D texture on outer boxset was just a decorative scrolling but I can now see it is the purifying flames of the immolation scence from Gotterdammerung - the twilight of the gods, I can hear the redemption theme now as the ring is returned to rheinmaidens and a new day dawns for mankind..........a lustworthy object of desire!
> 
> *Cheftimmyr is getting crazy ideas but his wife would kill him (again), ha ha.........*.
> 
> Wonder why there are both navy blue/silver and olive green/gold outer box colors for Solti Ring?


Straight-up truth DA! I've scored some of the Solti Ring installments as well as the Furtwangler La Scala on vinyl but the sound has been difficult to handle... I did find a Lohengrin highlights with Jess Thomas and a Klemperer Conducts Wagner that have much better sound quality and are very enjoyable to listen to...

My Pristine order came in today (I won't relist what I ordered again).... Insane how many recordings are now on my shelves from just 8 short months ago... Looking forward especially to the 1950 Furtwangler cycle, and the Kempe Meistersinger, and the Krauss Cycle, and... oh hell, all of it!!!! (Got some Callas in that order too....)

Now to carve out some serious listening time...

 :devil:


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> Wonder why there are both navy blue/silver and olive green/gold outer box colors for Solti Ring?


I think that must be due to the image quality of the pictures that were taken. It is definitely green/gold as per your picture.


----------



## Barbebleu

cheftimmyr said:


> Straight-up truth DA! I've scored some of the Solti Ring installments as well as the Furtwangler La Scala on vinyl but the sound has been difficult to handle.


I'm a bit surprised by your take on the Solti. There have been several remasterings of this classic set for the cd era and while some have sonic improvements that probably only dogs can hear, the original vinyl was considered a landmark in its day and to a lot of us still stands the test of time. As DA says the only thing difficult to handle was changing sides a load of times. :tiphat:


----------



## amfortas

Barbebleu said:


> I'm a bit surprised by your take on the Solti. There have been several remasterings of this classic set for the cd era and while some have sonic improvements that probably only dogs can hear, the original vinyl was considered a landmark in its day and to a lot of us still stands the test of time. :tiphat:


Perhaps the comment about sound was directed solely at the Furtwängler?


----------



## amfortas

Barbebleu said:


> I'm a bit surprised by your take on the Solti. There have been several remasterings of this classic set for the cd era and while some have sonic improvements that probably only dogs can hear, the original vinyl was considered a landmark in its day and to a lot of us still stands the test of time. :tiphat:


Perhaps the comment about sound was directed solely at the Furtwängler?

Or maybe some scratchy disks.


----------



## Barbebleu

amfortas said:


> Perhaps the comment about sound was directed solely at the Furtwängler?


Possibly. I await Cheftimmy's clarification.


----------



## cheftimmyr

Barbebleu said:


> Possibly. I await Cheftimmy's clarification.


The vinyls I have of the La Scala are in good shape (i.e. Not scratched up), but the sound comes off quite muffled and muted; an overall lack of clarity. I put on my Solti vinyls just now and the sound is considerably better compared to the La Scala just mentioned but it still seems slightly flat; part of it might be that most of my listening the last few months has been via headphones and CD so I'm spoiled on a clarity perspective, even with the older historical recordings... I will delve farther into the Solti cycle on vinyl, i.e. Siegfried Forest Murmurs, Brunnhilde awakening, etc. and see if I just didn't give it enough of a chance

I do recall last time I listened to the Solti vinyl it was immediately following a listening session of Kubelik Meistersinger CD via my nice headphones... So, again, maybe it was an apples to oranges comparison made unfairly due to the change in format....)


----------



## DarkAngel

cheftimmyr said:


> *My Pristine order came in today *(I won't relist what I ordered again).... Insane how many recordings are now on my shelves from just 8 short months ago... Looking forward especially to the 1950 Furtwangler cycle, and the Kempe Meistersinger, and the Krauss Cycle, and... oh hell, all of it!!!! (Got some Callas in that order too....)
> 
> Now to carve out some serious listening time...
> 
> :devil:


Game changer.......the Pristine XR 50 Furtwangler and 53 Krauss Rings are so much better sounding than any version released before that it is a sonic revelation, a gift from the opera gods, rejoice my son a great wagner treasure is now in your possession



> Now to carve out some serious listening time...


Sleep, food, even breathing are all distractions now, this is only one priority........:angel:


----------



## Pugg

DarkAngel said:


> At first I thought that 3D texture on outer boxset was just a decorative scrolling but I can now see it is the purifying flames of the immolation scence from Gotterdammerung - the twilight of the gods, I can hear the redemption theme now as the ring is returned to rheinmaidens and a new day dawns for mankind..........a lustworthy object of desire!
> 
> Cheftimmyr is getting crazy ideas but his wife would kill him (again), ha ha..........
> 
> Wonder why there are both navy blue/silver and olive green/gold outer box colors for Solti Ring?


I did search for that colour, my box is green :tiphat:


----------



## Barbebleu

cheftimmyr said:


> The vinyls I have of the La Scala are in good shape (i.e. Not scratched up), but the sound comes off quite muffled and muted; an overall lack of clarity. I put on my Solti vinyls just now and the sound is considerably better compared to the La Scala just mentioned but it still seems slightly flat; part of it might be that most of my listening the last few months has been via headphones and CD so I'm spoiled on a clarity perspective, even with the older historical recordings... I will delve farther into the Solti cycle on vinyl, i.e. Siegfried Forest Murmurs, Brunnhilde awakening, etc. and see if I just didn't give it enough of a chance
> 
> I do recall last time I listened to the Solti vinyl it was immediately following a listening session of Kubelik Meistersinger CD via my nice headphones... So, again, maybe it was an apples to oranges comparison made unfairly due to the change in format....)


CDs do tend to be a bit brighter and quite honestly I don't really miss vinyl. Do you have the Solti on cd too?


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## Pugg

New from Opera Depot
Ring cycle: Böhm :tiphat:


----------



## cheftimmyr

Barbebleu said:


> CDs do tend to be a bit brighter and quite honestly I don't really miss vinyl. Do you have the Solti on cd too?


I actually don't... I've heard so much about how it was groundbreaking for its time, and a monument in advancement of recording technology at the time; I'm afraid I'll be disappointed by the hype. I do have his Tannhauser, which was one of the first Wagner recordings I got. The orchestra is massive, almost overwhelmingly so in some places, but beautifully played.


----------



## Barbebleu

Pugg said:


> New from Opera Depot
> Ring cycle: Böhm :tiphat:


Pity it's the July cycle. Otmar Suitner conducted both August cycles that year and in the first August cycle Hotter sang Wotan.


----------



## DarkAngel

cheftimmyr said:


> I actually don't... I've heard so much about how it was groundbreaking for its time, and a monument in advancement of recording technology at the time; I'm afraid I'll be disappointed by the hype. I do have his Tannhauser, which was one of the first Wagner recordings I got. The orchestra is massive, almost overwhelmingly so in some places, but beautifully played.


Crazy cheap at Amazon USA sellers for $29 new, latest 2012 remaster previously found only in deluxe boxset.......


----------



## Barbebleu

cheftimmyr said:


> I actually don't... I've heard so much about how it was groundbreaking for its time, and a monument in advancement of recording technology at the time; I'm afraid I'll be disappointed by the hype. I do have his Tannhauser, which was one of the first Wagner recordings I got. The orchestra is massive, almost overwhelmingly so in some places, but beautifully played.


His Ring cycle sounds just like that. The original analogue master tapes were well attended to on the second cd remastering. Solti and the VPO are hard to beat.


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> Crazy cheap at Amazon USA sellers for $29 new, latest 2012 remaster previously found only in deluxe boxset.......


I've lost track now DA. Is this the third remaster?


----------



## gardibolt

I think so. I've been holding out for the price to drop on the Blu-ray...that seems like as good as this is ever going to get, if they're telling the truth about the master tapes having deteriorated. Since I already have the first remaster, I'm having trouble dropping $56 on an upgrade when there is so much stuff I don't have at all.

EDIT: Aw, screw it. Found it from an Amazon.de vendor for $42 shipped to USA. You've weakened my resistance, Barbebleu. Again.


----------



## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> I've lost track now DA. *Is this the third remaster*?


Yes for CD media Rings...........


----------



## interestedin

DarkAngel said:


> Yes for CD media Rings...........


I hate Decca. Last year I replaced my 80's version with the 1997 version for something like 90 Euros. A few weeks later they released the new white remastered version on the left for 40.


----------



## cheftimmyr

gardibolt said:


> I think so. I've been holding out for the price to drop on the Blu-ray...that seems like as good as this is ever going to get, if they're telling the truth about the master tapes having deteriorated. Since I already have the first remaster, I'm having trouble dropping $56 on an upgrade when there is so much stuff I don't have at all.
> 
> EDIT: *Aw, screw it. Found it from an Amazon.de vendor for $42 shipped to USA. You've weakened my resistance, Barbebleu. Again*.


Let us know how that Blu-Ray sound is... That might be the way to go if I'm going to get a Solti Cycle...


----------



## Morimur

So is like bluray replacing CDs or something? I don't get it.


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## DarkAngel

Morimur said:


> So is like bluray replacing CDs or something? I don't get it.


CD format by definition has data stream of 16/44, blu ray audio supports 24/96 and higher data streams meaning 24/96 audio remasters can be played back in full resolution. Solti Ring can be purchased as blu ray audio disc (entire ring on one disc) with full 24/96 audio......

Only a very small number of operas are available in blu ray audio format discs at this time.
You can also download high definition 24/96 opera in other file formats like flac, wav etc from various websites










Some classic opera performances are being released as combination blu ray audio and CD formats in one package......


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## Barbebleu

interestedin said:


> I hate Decca. Last year I replaced my 80's version with the 1997 version for something like 90 Euros. A few weeks later they released the new white remastered version on the left for 40.


I have the one in the middle. Sounds good to me so I'm fine to stick with it.


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## gardibolt

Yeah, mine is the 80s version so I felt compelled to upgrade.


----------



## Pugg

interestedin said:


> I hate Decca. Last year I replaced my 80's version with the 1997 version for something like 90 Euros. A few weeks later they released the new white remastered version on the left for 40.


Is that worth all the anger?
I say, wait a while before buying or deal with it.


----------



## Pugg

DarkAngel said:


> Yes for CD media Rings...........


Mind you, the sound from my 'wooden box" vinyl is better then the one on the right.


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## cheftimmyr

I'm trying to decide on a Parsifal to start with (I've only listened to '62 Knap & part of Barenboim)... I have '51 Knap, Krauss (Pristine), '64 Knap, & Kubelik... Any suggestions on listening order?


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT

cheftimmyr said:


> Let us know how that Blu-Ray sound is...


I don't have the Blu-Ray, but the sound on the DVD that came with the original "deluxe" box is superb. So much so that I noticed edits and imperfections that I'd never noticed before, and I've owned practically every incarnation of the Solti _Ring_ on vinyl, tape and CD. Double-checking with some earlier masterings, I was able to confirm that the "new" gremlins were always there, but they weren't as obvious as they are on the DVD.


----------



## cheftimmyr

I started on the '53 Krauss (Pristine) Parsifal and am through Act I starting Act II... Damn, the ambient stereo that DA has been bragging about is no joke. I mean... WOW!

George London as Amfortas can't be touched so far... really expressive and emotional projection for me. I do miss Jess Thomas so far as the Innocent Fool... Really impressed with Weber's Gurnemanz thus far. Will have a better opinion of Modl after Act II and beyond... The sound is beautiful, again, which makes me anxious to get into the rest of the Pristine package...

Krauss definitely leads a faster tempo than Knap in '62...


----------



## Jeffrey Smith

DarkAngel said:


> Yes for CD media Rings...........


Or if you want to go all out









This was released in 2012 so I assume the 2012 remaster was used...but beyond one copyright date, there is no indication in the box itself: they only give the original recording data.


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## DarkAngel

I got a package from Pristine XR yesterday, mostly orchestral works (Mahler, Bruckner etc) except for this historic wagner gem:








*

1935 Walkure Act 1, Bruno Walter VPO
*This has unbelieveablely fine sound quality for its age, Andrew Rose even claims that is one of the best examples of his Pristine XR restoration work, not only do we have Melchior and Lehmann in their famous roles as Siegmund and Sieglinde in excellent voice but also great orchestral sound from Walter and VPO........one of the great historic performances, essential for collectors

This was the final wagner I needed to have complete Pristine XR current collection of wagner remasters........


----------



## DarkAngel

Jeffrey Smith said:


> Or if you want to go all out
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *This was released in 2012 so I assume the 2012 remaster was used*...but beyond one copyright date, there is no indication in the box itself: they only give the original recording data.


JS they are not that kind to us, the complete wagner boxset above contains the older 1997 remaster of Ring, only that newest white Ring box or the deluxe large box contain the latest (and best) 2012 remaster................


----------



## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> I got a package from Pristine XR yesterday, mostly orchestral works (Mahler, Bruckner etc) except for this historic wagner gem:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 1935 Walkure Act 1, Bruno Walter VPO
> *This has unbelieveablely fine sound quality for its age, Andrew Rose even claims that is one of the best examples of his Pristine XR restoration work, not only do we have Melchior and Lehmann in their famous roles as Siegmund and Sieglinde in excellent voice but also great orchestral sound from Walter and VPO........one of the great historic performances, essential for collectors
> 
> This was the final wagner I needed to have complete Pristine XR current collection of wagner remasters........


So of course, DA, there's something else I need to add.... :devil:


----------



## DarkAngel

cheftimmyr said:


> So of course, DA, there's something else I need to add.... :devil:


As you may have realized by now the quest is never over........

The absolute best sound you can get for the 1925-35 era wagner singers is on the 3 volume potted ring at Pristine XR, original restoration done by mark obert-thorn then additional work by andrew rose, this is beyond essential for fans of this era singing

One reason the sound is so exceptional is that these are studio electrical recordings to work from, not a complete ring but major segments from different sessions pieced together


----------



## DarkAngel

cheftimmyr said:


> I started on the '53 Krauss (Pristine) Parsifal and am through Act I starting Act II... Damn, the ambient stereo that DA has been bragging about is no joke. I mean... WOW!
> 
> George London as Amfortas can't be touched so far... really expressive and emotional projection for me. I do miss Jess Thomas so far as the Innocent Fool... Really impressed with Weber's Gurnemanz thus far. Will have a better opinion of Modl after Act II and beyond... The sound is beautiful, again, which makes me anxious to get into the rest of the Pristine package...
> 
> Krauss definitely leads a faster tempo than Knap in '62...


Martha Modl will not let you down as Kundry, that dark earthy lower voice can be both sensuous and sinister to great dramatic effect, a great Parsifal and you have the best sound quality version available......


----------



## Barbebleu

There is a new complete Bohm Ring from Bayreuth 1966 on Operadepot. Their description is slightly misleading in that they refer to the official release as being from 1967. As most of us are pretty well aware, the official release was an amalgam of '66 and '67 as Bohm did not conduct a full cycle in 1967. So this '66 one is new. This is the one I posted some observations on a while ago. It is very good if you like Bohm's approach and the singing is the high standard we expect for the time. At the price it's a steal.


----------



## Pugg

Opera Depot : *Birgit Nilson*: 50 % off


----------



## interestedin

Pugg said:


> Opera Depot : *Birgit Nilson*: 50 % off


Yes it's Birgit's birthday buying. Today 98 years ago that was.


----------



## gardibolt

Who was recording all these Bayreuth operas in the 1950s? I looked back at Culshaw's book and he says in 1951 Decca recorded Knappertsbusch's Ring (though Culshaw is critical of the first three operas and apparently only Götterdämmerung was considered good enough for release) and Parsifal. EMI was recording Karajan's Meistersinger that year. Did they also do the recordings of Karajan's Ring from 1951 that is trickling out? Was Karajan under contract with EMI then? I know Decca did the 1955 Rings, but who recorded all the rest of these items suddenly appearing on Myto and Walhall? Did Decca have a crew there every year? Did EMI? Did Bayreuth have some kind of inhouse taping system? Were these broadcast and the tapes are from the broadcast?


----------



## Roland

It's because of this thread that I bought the Knappertsbusch 1957 Ring. I really like that recording, thanks much for the recommendation.

Now I've seen a 1957 Knappertsbusch Parsifal on the Walhall label. If the sound on the Parsifal is as good as the on the Ring for 1957, I would like to buy it. Has anyone heard this recording? Can you guess if the Parsifal might have been recorded by the same team that did the Ring that year? Does it sound as good?


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> Who was recording all these Bayreuth operas in the 1950s? I looked back at Culshaw's book and he says in 1951 Decca recorded Knappertsbusch's Ring (though Culshaw is critical of the first three operas and apparently only Götterdämmerung was considered good enough for release) and Parsifal. EMI was recording Karajan's Meistersinger that year. Did they also do the recordings of Karajan's Ring from 1951 that is trickling out? Was Karajan under contract with EMI then? I know Decca did the 1955 Rings, but who recorded all the rest of these items suddenly appearing on Myto and Walhall? Did Decca have a crew there every year? Did EMI? Did Bayreuth have some kind of inhouse taping system? Were these broadcast and the tapes are from the broadcast?


There was a battle between two record companies Decca/Culshaw and EMI /Legge to secure contractual recording rights for Bayreuth Festival in 1951.......Karajan had EMI contract and Knap had Decca contract, two rings were performed in 1951 one by Karajan and one by Knap but both companies had trouble first year getting good recording results, Decca was only happy with Gotterdammerung recording but release was held up because principal singers had EMI contracts.....very complicated mess. The result was it took long time before Testament could sort it out and release the 51 Knap Gotterdammerung, and EMI released only the 51 Karajan Walkure act 3......this info is in the Testament booklet

The future Rings from 1952 forward that we hear great releases from Myto and Walhall I think are sourced from Bavarian Radio broadcast masters, we get no info in booklets from these companies but Orfeo mentions this in their booklets, Music & Arts also mentions the source of 56 Ring media is broadcast tapes......

Decca team returned in 1955 for live stereo Ring recordings but these were shelved almost right away as plans for the Decca Solti studio ring were launched by Culshaw, Testament again later acquires rights to release these recordings from Decca

Google search produces nothing of any help in this area......................


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## DarkAngel

You may wonder why did Karajan not return to Bayreuth after 51 season other than 52 Bayreuth Tristan........

After reading Astrid Varnay's book many of the main singers were not happy with his rehearsal and conducting style so the wagner family did not extend his contract for future Bayreuth seasons........instead we got a new "K" conductor named Keilberth to replace him and alternate with Knap during season (53 saw brief appearance of another "K" with Clemons Krauss)


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## DarkAngel

Roland said:


> It's because of this thread that I bought the Knappertsbusch 1957 Ring. I really like that recording, thanks much for the recommendation.
> 
> Now I've seen a 1957 Knappertsbusch Parsifal on the Walhall label. If the sound on the Parsifal is as good as the on the Ring for 1957, I would like to buy it. Has anyone heard this recording? Can you guess if the Parsifal might have been recorded by the same team that did the Ring that year? Does it sound as good?


I have almost all the Walhall and Myto Bayreuth recordings from 51-64 and the 57 Knap Parsifal has great sound, pretty sure the 57 Ring and Parsifal are all from the same recording source: Bavarian Radio broadcast masters, crazy cheap at Amazon USA


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## DarkAngel

My wagner purchases have slowed to a mere trickle (must depend on the fresh new buyers to keep us posted) but found these two Gotterdammerung Act 3 performances to buy. The 62 Solti is a couple years before the Decca studio recording and Nilsson is reported to be amazing here (we shall see)

52 Furtwangler features Flagstad as Brunnhilde, the following year with same orchestra a complete live ring is recorded with Martha Modl as brunnhilde


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## Itullian

I been at a trickle for a while DA.


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## Itullian

Love this set.


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## Pugg

Another sale at Opera Depot: 50% discount on Wagner


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## Barbebleu

Pugg said:


> Another sale at Opera Depot: 50% discount on Wagner


The free Walkure is very good. Shouldn't be missed given that it's a freebie.


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## gardibolt

I've slowed on Wagner releases too, but I grabbed that one and also the new 1966 Bohm cycle. Not to derail the thread away from Wagner, the free Swedish Salome with Nilsson from them last week is quite extraordinary as well. Despite the language, I found it the most chilling Salome I've heard.

Thanks to DA for the info sorting out the recordings from Bayreuth. Bavarian Radio makes sense as to why they'd be high quality recordings.

Generally I've found Walhall's releases to be quite dependably solid in quality; the one exception I've run across so far is the Kempe Covent Garden Ring, which is unlistenable and a total waste of money.


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## gardibolt

> Decca team returned in 1955 for live stereo Ring recordings but these were shelved almost right away as plans for the Decca Solti studio ring were launched by Culshaw, Testament again later acquires rights to release these recordings from Decca


Anyone know what the situation is with the unreleased other two parts of the Second 1955 Ring? It's been quite a while since Testament released two of the operas.


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## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> Anyone know what the situation is with the unreleased other two parts of the Second 1955 Ring? It's been quite a while since Testament released two of the operas.


According to Testament booklet from two existing operas of the 2nd 55 Ring the entire 2nd Ring was definitely recorded by Decca team in stereo, not only to capture the great performances but also as insurance in case something did not go well with final recordings and mastering of 1st 55 Ring which is now used in complete 55 Testament Ring boxset.......

Also mentioned was the fact that Keilberth kept very detailed diary including performance impressions, he did not get along well with Knap who he felt was a polar opposite of his Wagner style, this is one reason Keilberth left Bayreuth after 55 season. Fortunately we have many great recordings from 52-55 Bayreuth seasons to document his great success....

So not sure we will ever see a complete 55 2nd Ring released, but is was definitely recorded........


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## gardibolt

I wrote to Testament to ask them what the situation is with the missing two pieces; I'll report back if they respond.


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## cheftimmyr

I'm offline for 3 days and there's a glut of activity to catch up on! Thanks to everyone for "dropping knowledge" for us rookies!

I was able to finally get around to the following:









This was a pleasant surprise! I found it more pleasing than the Solti; the cast was well sung on all parts, and the recording itself sounded good. Yes, obviously, the lush sound and orchestration from the Solti is probably the benchmark but this Sawallisch is what I'll be reaching for next time I listen to Tannhauser. I felt more connected....









I guess I was on a Sawallisch kick, inadvertently... This Lohengrin was sublime! Jess Thomas opened the heavens for me, even more so than the Kempe. Maybe, as above, there is a dramatic presence translated more to me in these live recordings... and I've heard some say that the "Bayreuth Sound" isn't to their taste but I'm not one of that opinion... Astrid crushes it as Ortrud (aka Evil Personified); chillingly portrayed and a performance I think anyone interested in Lohengrin should listen to.

That's about all I have for the last few days... I've got too much in the listening line so it's decision time...

Btw, DA, the Mrs found the Pristine purchase buried in the monthly expenses; my marriage is still intact, by a thread :lol: :angel:


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## cheftimmyr

Itullian said:


> Love this set.


Trying to find info on this particular set... Is this the same as the RAI 1953 sessions available on Pristine? Or is this another Furty cycle I need to put on wishlist? (I have the 1950 La Scala, Pristine, in line to listen!)


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## Barbebleu

I've just finished the Jochum Lohengrin from Bayreuth '54. Excellent version in good sound. I see Operadepot have it on sale at the moment. It's a steal and everyone is in great voice. I rather enjoyed Nilsson as Elizabeth and Varnay as Ortrud is immense. It's good to hear Lohengrin so well sung and Windgassen is his usual enjoyable self. 

Another great addition to anyones collection but essential for post-war Bayreuth fanatics. You know who you are!!


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## Barbebleu

cheftimmyr said:


> Trying to find info on this particular set... Is this the same as the RAI 1953 sessions available on Pristine? Or is this another Furty cycle I need to put on wishlist? (I have the 1950 La Scala, Pristine, in line to listen!)


Yes it is. But this recording is not bad and probably a lot cheaper than Pristine.


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## DarkAngel

> Btw, DA, the Mrs found the Pristine purchase buried in the monthly expenses; my marriage is still intact, by a thread :lol: :angel:


Time for some marriage diplomacy, you must offer a gift of atonement for your reckless spending ways, ha ha......

 

I love love love those two Sawallisch live Bayreuth recordings from the early 1960s, the "black venus" Grace Bumbry thrilled Bayreuth audience and wagner family (along with "Vicky")

American Jess Thomas has the most beautiful golden clear Wagner soft voice, his glorious tale of the grail knights of castle monsalvat (In Fernem Land) to reveal his origin and noble mission is beautiful beyond compare.......



So impressive was the Venus Bayreuth debut of Grace Bumbry there were over 40 curtain calls, soon afterwards an invitation to the white house by Jackie Kennedy.........a great dramatic talent


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## gardibolt

I have yet to be disappointed by any Sawallisch Wagner recording. He's really, really good.

Speaking of Sawallisch, Opera Depot has a free download of a 1977 Götterdämmerung from Sawallisch (with Astrid Varnay as one of the Norns!) through Friday. So there's one to add your Wagner Sawallisch collections for nothing but the time to download.

Bad news, alas, in response from Testament about a release of the 2nd cycle 1955 Rheingold and Siegfried:



> As far as I know, unfortunately this was never recorded and therefore we have been
> unable to release this.
> We do get asked many times for this and I'm not sure the reason the performance was
> never recorded.


So the two legs of the 2d cycle that we have are apparently all there is to release. That's a shame. Well, I can stop checking.


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## gardibolt

Interesting review of the Knappertsbusch 1963 Lohengrin on Orfeo:

http://www.classicstoday.com/review/knappertsbuschs-live-63-munich-lohengrin/

I'm not familiar with the Bychkov Lohengrin the author rates highly near the end. I like Bychkov a great deal but generally know him only from Russian works. I'll have to check that one out.


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## jflatter

gardibolt said:


> Interesting review of the Knappertsbusch 1963 Lohengrin on Orfeo:
> 
> http://www.classicstoday.com/review/knappertsbuschs-live-63-munich-lohengrin/
> 
> I'm not familiar with the Bychkov Lohengrin the author rates highly near the end. I like Bychkov a great deal but generally know him only from Russian works. I'll have to check that one out.


Bychkov's Lohengrin recording is a pretty good modern account, although one or two singers could have been better. Bychkov is an excellent live Wagner conductor having heard Tannhauser and Lohengrin at the Royal Opera House which were both superb and more recently a spellbinding Parsifal at the Teatro Real in Madrid.


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## cheftimmyr

Are there any historic-era Parsifal's I'm missing in my growing collection? Thus far, Knap '51, Krauss ('53), Knap '61, '62 & '64, Kubelik and Barenboim. (I noticed Pristine has the Muck complete Parsifal Recordings from '27/28). I feel like I've got a good collection so I'd probably only want to add something that was "must-listen"...


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## DarkAngel

cheftimmyr said:


> Are there any historic-era Parsifal's I'm missing in my growing collection? Thus far, Knap '51, Krauss ('53), Knap '61, '62 & '64, Kubelik and Barenboim. (I noticed Pristine has the Muck complete Parsifal Recordings from '27/28). I feel like I've got a good collection so I'd probably only want to add something that was "must-listen"...


Solid great collection, some people like the Bayreuth Boulez from mid 1970s (fastest timing of all versions) for variety of performance, but you would break Duck's heart with such an action, ha ha



The Karl Muck Parsifal are just collected segments from studio recordings during 1927-28, the sound is good because of electrical studio setting, although very slow timing as discussed in other thread they are very nice with a flowing organic sound (as wagner would want)

You can get the Naxos very cheap at Amazon USA (Duck may forgive you now)










BTW those two would give you the absolute extremes of performance practice with fastest/slowest tempos.....


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## howlingfantods

cheftimmyr said:


> Are there any historic-era Parsifal's I'm missing in my growing collection? Thus far, Knap '51, Krauss ('53), Knap '61, '62 & '64, Kubelik and Barenboim. (I noticed Pristine has the Muck complete Parsifal Recordings from '27/28). I feel like I've got a good collection so I'd probably only want to add something that was "must-listen"...


Barenboim has one of the more solid overall recordings, with great pacing, an excellent Kundry from Waltraud Meier, a decent Jeruselem's performance as Parsifal, and Van Dam repeating his outstanding Amfortas.

I'm also pretty fond of Armin Jordan's recording for the avant garde Syberberg film, some pretty scrappy playing from the Monte Carlo band but excellent vocal performances, particularly Robert Lloyd's Gurnemanz, one of my favorites, along with solid Parsifal from Goldberg and very good Kundry from Minton.

The Herbert Kegel is also a good one, extremely quick, almost as fast as the Boulez but I much prefer Kegel to Boulez--Kegel is quick but he still sounds like Wagner, whereas Boulez always seems to me to be aiming to make Wagner sound like Debussy.

The 1954 Kna is kind of interesting because of Hotter's performance as Amfortas, one of the great readings of this role, but I'm not a great fan of the recording as a whole since Greindl is too sinister a Gurnemanz for me. The 1950 Gui with Callas and Christoff is an interesting curiosity--in Italian and with huge chunks missing, Christoff a hammy and slavic Gurnemanz and Callas a fitfully great but sometimes less stirring Kundry.

Karajan has the live 1961 with pretty poor sound and part of the first act is from another performance. Great performance from Ludwig as Kundry in Act 2, and with Hongen and I think bits of Modl as Kundry in Act 1, a good Hotter Gurnemanz (but someone else in the first half of Act 1), and an iffy Uhl performance as Parsifal. Karajan's studio 1981 has wonderful sound, great performance and playing from the pit, one of the greatest Gurnemanz and Amfortas performances from Moll and Van Dam, but a pretty poor Kundry and Parsifal. Solti's interpretation is all wrong, but he has some very fine singing from Ludwig, a decent Gurnemanz and Parsifal out of Kollo and Frick but a poor Amfortas from Fischer Dieskau.

My personal top 5 are the Kubelik, the 1962 Kna, the Barenboim, the Armin Jordan, and the 1981 Karajan.


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## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> Solid great collection, some people like the Bayreuth Boulez from mid 1970s (fastest timing of all versions) for variety of performance, but you would break Duck's heart with such an action, ha ha
> 
> 
> 
> The Karl Muck Parsifal are just collected segments from studio recordings during 1927-28, the sound is good because of electrical studio setting, although very slow timing as discussed in other thread they are very nice with a flowing organic sound (as wagner would want)
> 
> You can get the Naxos very cheap at Amazon USA (Duck may forgive you now)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BTW those two would give you the absolute extremes of performance practice with fastest/slowest tempos.....


Duly noted, I don't think I'll be adding the Boulez but good to know... Duck can keep a neutral opinion of me now! :lol:


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## cheftimmyr

howlingfantods said:


> Barenboim has one of the more solid overall recordings, with great pacing, an excellent Kundry from Waltraud Meier, a decent Jeruselem's performance as Parsifal, and Van Dam repeating his outstanding Amfortas.
> 
> I'm also pretty fond of Armin Jordan's recording for the avant garde Syberberg film, some pretty scrappy playing from the Monte Carlo band but excellent vocal performances, particularly Robert Lloyd's Gurnemanz, one of my favorites, along with solid Parsifal from Goldberg and very good Kundry from Minton.
> 
> The Herbert Kegel is also a good one, extremely quick, almost as fast as the Boulez but I much prefer Kegel to Boulez--Kegel is quick but he still sounds like Wagner, whereas Boulez always seems to me to be aiming to make Wagner sound like Debussy.
> 
> The 1954 Kna is kind of interesting because of Hotter's performance as Amfortas, one of the great readings of this role, but I'm not a great fan of the recording as a whole since Greindl is too sinister a Gurnemanz for me. The 1950 Gui with Callas and Christoff is an interesting curiosity--in Italian and with huge chunks missing, Christoff a hammy and slavic Gurnemanz and Callas a fitfully great but sometimes less stirring Kundry.
> 
> Karajan has the live 1961 with pretty poor sound and part of the first act is from another performance. Great performance from Ludwig as Kundry in Act 2, and with Hongen and I think bits of Modl as Kundry in Act 1, a good Hotter Gurnemanz (but someone else in the first half of Act 1), and an iffy Uhl performance as Parsifal. Karajan's studio 1981 has wonderful sound, great performance and playing from the pit, one of the greatest Gurnemanz and Amfortas performances from Moll and Van Dam, but a pretty poor Kundry and Parsifal. Solti's interpretation is all wrong, but he has some very fine singing from Ludwig, a decent Gurnemanz and Parsifal out of Kollo and Frick but a poor Amfortas from Fischer Dieskau.
> 
> My personal top 5 are the Kubelik, the 1962 Kna, the Barenboim, the Armin Jordan, and the 1981 Karajan.


Thanks for the detailed response; most helpful!

I have the '81 Karajan on vinyl, which I forgot to list. The '54 sounds intriguing with Hotter... might have to add that on the wish list... :tippet:

Is Callas' Kundry awesome or so-so?


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## Woodduck

cheftimmyr said:


> Is Callas' Kundry awesome or so-so?


Duck (technically, _Aix sponsa_) finds Callas very good but something of a special case. Singing in Italian (the language that fits Wagner's music least well), with that clean bel canto line she brought to everything (which would surely have pleased the composer, who didn't want his music shrieked and barked), she won't convince everyone that she really is the character. But she's superbly confident and vocally impeccable. Had she stayed with Wagner and learned German, she might well have been a great Kundry. We're lucky to have this, and every Wagnerite should hear her.


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## DarkAngel

If you cannot resist the urge operadepot.com has the Callas Kundry mentioned (on sale now)........


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## Barbebleu

I would second Howling with regard to the Kegel. I love his pacing. Slow when the drama requires it , quicker when it demands it!


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## Barbebleu

Does anyone have the Bayreuth 1960 Meistersinger with Knappertsbusch conducting? It's a gap I might fill if there are enough strong recommendations for it. The Amazon reviews are o.k. but I've not got a lot of faith in them. I have a lot of good Meistersingers so this will need to be a bit special for me to add it to my collection.


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## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> Does anyone have the *Bayreuth 1960 Meistersinger *with Knappertsbusch conducting? It's a gap I might fill if there are enough strong recommendations for it. The Amazon reviews are o.k. but I've not got a lot of faith in them. I have a lot of good Meistersingers so this will need to be a bit special for me to add it to my collection.


A great Meister, Grummer and Windgassen are proven assets, Griendl debut as Sachs is the question but I think he does fine job with darker voice than most (we are used to hearing him sing Hagen and Hunding characters), I have the Myto which sounds very good but new Orfeo just released which maybe even better sound plus nice booklet...........buy buy buy


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## Itullian

I second DA's notion.


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## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> A great Meister, Grummer and Windgassen are proven assets, Griendl debut as Sachs is the question but I think he does fine job with darker voice than most (we are used to hearing him sing Hagen and Hunding characters), I have the Myto which sounds very good but new Orfeo just released which maybe even better sound plus nice booklet...........buy buy buy


Two respected recommendations from DA and Itullian. It is now on order in the Orfeo incarnation.


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## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> Interesting review of the Knappertsbusch 1963 Lohengrin on Orfeo:
> http://www.classicstoday.com/review/knappertsbuschs-live-63-munich-lohengrin/


The mention of the newly release 63 Knap Lohengrin above with Hans Hopf has me watching, but don't forget we have 3 great Jess Thomas and 2 Sandor Konya Lohengrins from same era which will not yield easily to the newcomer......

63 Kempe (studio) and 62 Sawallisch Bayreuth (live) Jess Thomas lohengrins have often been highly praised here, we must add to that a recent release 65 Bohm (live) on Orfeo label with Thomas still in great voice and Ludwig tops her Ortrud (from Kempe) with searing performance of the dark enchantress who so easily sways the passive Elsa to betray Lohengrin's one request.....sound is very good so needless to say an essential buy

We have also discussed the great merits of two Sandor Konya Bayreuth Lohengrins, 59 Matacic and 58 Cluytens, again very good sound and great casts, this is wagner singing of the highest caliber that was so common place back then with so many great singers, magnificent performances......


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## DarkAngel

And if you want more don't forget the 64 Keilberth Lohengrin from operadepot with Jess Thomas, I would get the three mentioned above first but this is yet another great one with very good live sound...........


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## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> And if you want more don't forget the 64 Keilberth Lohengrin from operadepot with Jess Thomas, I would get the three mentioned above first but this is yet another great one with very good live sound...........


What a great cover too!


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## Barbebleu

DA. Is the '65 Bohm the Vienna one?


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## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> DA. Is the '65 Bohm the Vienna one?


Yes 65 Vienna State Opera with Bohm


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## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> Yes 65 Vienna State Opera with Bohm


For a horrible moment I thought it was one I didn't have.


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## Itullian

Should I get it?


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## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> Should I get it?


It's pretty good although it won't replace any of your favourites. Always good to have another Bayreuth Meistersinger particularly if the price is right.


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## gardibolt

Was just listening to the 1938 Covent Garden Fürtwängler Götterdämmerung Act II reconstruction by Caniell on Immortal Performances (mostly one performance from June 1938, with bits filled in from another June 1938 performance and the 1937 Covent Garden performance with largely the same cast to make a complete Act II). Pretty seamless reconstruction. Sound quality isn't the best but the Scene 3 with the Chorus of Vassals is really something; incredibly dramatic and ferocious. Melchior and Leider are fabulous as always, but Weber's Hagen grabs you by the throat here and doesn't let go. Right up there with the incredibly nasty 1957 Scene 3 from Knappertsbusch with Josef Greindl's terrifying Hagen. The Vassals recognize that he's a right *******, and seem happy to be following him straight to hell.


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## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Should I get it?


Amazon USA sellers $7.40, that is insanely low price buy buy buy..............
Great sound and some different singers added for variety, plus the best Eva ever in Grummer


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## Barbebleu

I've just finished listening to the following.

















Die Walkure Act 3 is excellent. Karajan is a revelation as a conductor in this. The singing is very good with Sigurd Bjorling in good voice as Wotan. Astrid Varnay is fine as Brunnhilde although she isn't quite as accurate as I've heard her on the top notes. Well worth having though as it is the only record we have of this performance.

Moralt's Parsifal is as good as his Ring Cycle. Anny Kunetzni is a bit squally in places but Ludwig Weber is immense as Gurnemanz. Treptow is very good as Parsifal and Moralt has a great feel for the pace of Parsifal. I'm happy to have added this to my collection.

Although this is outwith the thread OP I have also just finished Gergiev's Rheingold. Excellent stuff, Pape is his usual mellifluous self and the rest of the cast is excellent too. It's a great modern Rheingold and it is a shame that his Walkure wasn't well enough received to make them carry on and complete the cycle.

No idea how the last image got there and I cant get rid of it. But it is a pretty good Walkure!!


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## gardibolt

Barbebleu said:


> I've just finished listening to the following.
> 
> View attachment 85460
> 
> 
> View attachment 85461
> 
> 
> Die Walkure Act 3 is excellent. Karajan is a revelation as a conductor in this. The singing is very good with Sigurd Bjorling in good voice as Wotan. Astrid Varnay is fine as Brunnhilde although she isn't quite as accurate as I've heard her on the top notes. Well worth having though as it is the only record we have of this performance.
> 
> Moralt's Parsifal is as good as his Ring Cycle. Anny Kunetzni is a bit squally in places but Ludwig Weber is immense as Gurnemanz. Treptow is very good as Parsifal and Moralt has a great feel for the pace of Parsifal. I'm happy to have added this to my collection.


Very nice; I just added the Moralt Parsifal to my iPod so I'm looking forward to it. I really liked his Ring cycle.


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## Barbebleu

My Orfeo Bayreuth 1960 Meistersinger arrived today. Hopefully I'll get around to listening to it sometime in the not too distant future. I'm halfway through Act 1 of Knappertsbusch's studio Meistersinger so it takes priority.


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## cheftimmyr

I have embarked on the 1950 Furty La Scala Ring that I got in my bank-account-sapping order from Pristine, and just finished Rheingold. This is my first time hearing Furtwangler conduct a cycle (I'm not counting the used vinyls I found, which were intolerable due to poor quality so I couldn't even get more than a few sides in).

First, the sound as you would expect, is phenomenal. DA is always waxing poetic about Andrew Rose, but dude is legit with the sound restoration and the ambient stereo treatment. Second, I entered this really looking forward to hearing Furtwangler leading the orchestra... Maybe it's because I'm adding more listening hours of Wagner to my "belt" but I really noticed a lot of nuance in Furty's direction. It's probably the most "personality" I've picked up on from a conductor since I started listening to Wagner, which I really enjoyed. And by that, I don't mean exerting his will onto the score, but rather it flowed in a way I hadn't encountered until now. Not at all "one dimensional". At times building to frenetic energy, and then dissolving into tranquil waters (End of Scene 1 into Scene 2)... And the entrance of the giants was probably the fastest I've heard thus far but the brass just came alive so I didn't feel like the quicker pace took anything away from that moment. 

The one thing I haven't been thrilled about thus far is the cast.... Frantz is fine so far as Wotan (he's no Hotter), but Pernerstorfer's "Alberich" is hitting me as just straight-up bland and uninspired. Settler's "Loge" also doesn't sound great to my ear but maybe I just don't care for his timbre. Ludwig Weber's "Fasolt" started well but it almost sounded like a couple of spots in Scene 2 he lost his way but maybe I'm mistaken on that (And I've really enjoyed him in general on some other recordings, which I believe were all mid 1950's and on).

It's apparent to me that some of the other Rings I've listened to (Keilberth 52, 53, etc...) have spoiled me on the casting front. Despite that, and missing the "Bayreuth Sound", I thoroughly enjoyed Furty's Das Rheingold, I'm so glad I added this to my collection, and am looking forward to working my way through the rest of this cycle.


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## cheftimmyr

Just finished the 1950 La Scala Furtwangler "Die Walkure". Absolutely thrilling and electric. I enjoyed the pairing of Treptow and Konetzni as Siegmund and Sieglinde; first time hearing Konetzni and I thought she did a good job. Flagstad was an excellent Brunnhilde, also my first time hearing here in that role, so lots of new things to listen for. I do, however, want to check out some of her earlier recordings from the '30's as comparison. 

I swear there's a cut in Act II during Wotan's monologue chronicling his past to Brunnhilde. Took me a minute to jump ahead but I got it figured out. 

Halfway through the Furty cycle though, I'm going back to the maestro... I love what he's done thus far in this ring cycle. Definitely a contrast to the Keilberth's, Bohm and Krauss cycles I've already heard. There's just a certain "it" factor that has pulled me in every time and engrossed me in the operas... 

I may be able to fit all of Siegfried in tomorrow... that would be a good day! 

BTW, DA, I started the Paul Jackson "Saturday Afternoons at The Old Met'... About 100 pages in, great read... thx for the rec earlier in the thread!


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## DarkAngel

> BTW, DA, I started the Paul Jackson "Saturday Afternoons at The Old Met'... About 100 pages in, great read... thx for the rec earlier in the thread!


The three Paul Jackson MET books are priceless to me, such great info and photos, the only caveat is that radio from the MET started in 1931 so we don't have any discussion of previous period and singers.

I was reading in another book that the director of the MET in 1931 was not convinced that radio was an acceptable way for the public audience to experience opera, so the head of RCA set up special demonstration in MET directors office and then they listened to afternoon broadcast on RCA radio and everyone was very impressed.......radio MET opera became a big success and a major source of new revenue for the MET at the time



Back in the 1930s a typical home radio was a full size piece of furniture you would sit around like TV today.......


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT

cheftimmyr said:


> I have embarked on the 1950 Furty La Scala Ring that I got in my bank-account-sapping order from Pristine.


I bit the bullet as well, after putting off this purchase for a couple of years. I own other versions of the La Scala _Ring_ on vinyl, CD and download, but - from what I've heard so far - the Pristine remastering is little short of miraculous. I might have expected as much, given the excellent job Pristine did with Furty's RAI recording. Despite the orchestral/vocal wrinkles in either set, it's clear to me that Furtwängler was an astounding conductor of the _Ring_, and makes it all the more regrettable that he was unable to make a recording under more favourable conditions and in better sound.


----------



## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> The three Paul Jackson MET books are priceless to me, such great info and photos, the only caveat is that radio from the MET started in 1931 so we don't have any discussion of previous period and singers.
> 
> I was reading in another book that the director of the MET in 1931 was not convinced that radio was an acceptable way for the public audience to experience opera, so the head of RCA set up special demonstration in MET directors office and then they listened to afternoon broadcast on RCA radio and everyone was very impressed.......radio MET opera became a big success and a major source of new revenue for the MET at the time
> 
> 
> 
> Back in the 1930s a typical home radio was a full size piece of furniture you would sit around like TV today.......


Off topic, but my dad actually restored some art deco style radiograms when I was younger. Like tvs in popular culture today, they were the centerpiece of many living rooms...


----------



## gardibolt

Speaking of the magic Pristine works on hoary old Wagner recordings, this weekend I was listening to the Walküre Act III with Lauritz Melchior, Helen Traubel and Toscanini conducting the NBC Symphony at Carnegie Hall, February 1941.
https://www.pristineclassical.com/paco105.html
Just exquisite and the sound quality is comparable to a live recording of 30 years later. From a review of the concert in 1941:



> It is also to be noted that Mr. Melchior sang strictly in time. And when it came to "Waelse, Waelse" from ''Walkuere," where he loves to hold onto the sustained high tones for a time which is at least double their length in the score, he held these tones to their exact values and on observing a little wigwag of Mr. Toscanini's finger promptly renounced them.


Toscanini ran a tight ship and not even Melchior could get away with his usual little flourishes. Showoff.


----------



## cheftimmyr

gardibolt said:


> Speaking of the magic Pristine works on hoary old Wagner recordings, this weekend I was listening to the Walküre Act III with Lauritz Melchior, Helen Traubel and Toscanini conducting the NBC Symphony at Carnegie Hall, February 1941.
> https://www.pristineclassical.com/paco105.html
> Just exquisite and the sound quality is comparable to a live recording of 30 years later. From a review of the concert in 1941:
> 
> Toscanini ran a tight ship and not even Melchior could get away with his usual little flourishes. Showoff.


Definitely adding that to the "buy soon" list... Thx for the tip! How is Toscanini's Wagner? I thought I remembered reading his Wagner was very rigid, I may be mistaken though


----------



## Woodduck

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> I bit the bullet as well, after putting off this purchase for a couple of years. I own other versions of the La Scala _Ring_ on vinyl, CD and download, but - from what I've heard so far - the Pristine remastering is little short of miraculous. I might have expected as much, given the excellent job Pristine did with Furty's RAI recording. Despite the orchestral/vocal wrinkles in either set, it's clear to me that Furtwängler was an astounding conductor of the _Ring_, and makes it all the more regrettable that he was unable to make a recording under more favourable conditions and in better sound.


If my biggest operatic regret is that the great roles of Callas were not filmed for posterity, my second-greatest is that we don't have Furtwangler conducting the operas of Wagner - especially _Tristan,_ _Der Ring,_ and _Parsifal_ - with first-rate casts in modern sound. The timing was off in two respects: by the stereo era, Furtwangler was gone, and most of the truly great Wagnerian singers were either retired or past their primes. The Solti _Ring_ managed to bring together most of the last generation of a dying, heroic breed - London, Flagstad, Svanholm, Frick, Neidlinger, Hotter, Nilsson - and not all of them in the leading parts they sang in their primes. Furtwangler's uniquely profound _Tristan,_ with the aging but still magnificent Flagstad, becomes more and more treasurable, and educational, as the years pass.


----------



## gardibolt

cheftimmyr said:


> Definitely adding that to the "buy soon" list... Thx for the tip! How is Toscanini's Wagner? I thought I remembered reading his Wagner was very rigid, I may be mistaken though


I wouldn't call it "rigid." It's brisk and he sticks to the score and isn't inclined to wallow in sentiment, but it's not by any means at the expense of or to the detriment of the music. Listen to the sample on the Pristine web page and see what you think.


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## Woodduck

gardibolt said:


> I wouldn't call it "rigid." It's brisk and he sticks to the score and isn't inclined to wallow in sentiment, but it's not by any means at the expense of or to the detriment of the music. Listen to the sample on the Pristine web page and see what you think.


Toscanini was a great Wagner conductor. One of my first Wagner recordings was a 78rpm disc of "Dawn and Siegfried's Rhine Journey," and I don't think I've heard the music done better. His recordings of Wagner duets with Melchior and Traubel are excellent. A surprising fact is that, contrary to his image as a "fast" conductor, his _Parsifal_ at Bayreuth was the slowest on record for that theater. I think his reputation for speed and rigidity is based mainly on his late recordings.


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT

Woodduck said:


> I think his reputation for speed and rigidity is based mainly on his late recordings.


Well, when the valves start to weaken - if you get my drift - it's best not to stand about for too long


----------



## Woodduck

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Well, when the valves start to weaken - if you get my drift - it's best not to stand about for too long


Toscanini may have heard the writing on the wall. In his last concert, he loses his concentration in the Venusberg music from _Tannhauser _and miscues the orchestra, and for 30 seconds or so they are not together. He gets them back in synch, but it was quite upsetting to him, and the broadcasters apparently panicked and played something else over the air until order was restored. A rather silly remedy, but broadcasters aren't noted for their musical judgment.


----------



## amfortas

gardibolt said:


> Speaking of the magic Pristine works on hoary old Wagner recordings, this weekend I was listening to the Walküre Act III with Lauritz Melchior, Helen Traubel and Toscanini conducting the NBC Symphony at Carnegie Hall, February 1941.


You meant either Act I, or the rarest Wagner recording known to man.


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## Woodduck

amfortas said:


> You meant either Act I, or the rarest Wagner recording known to man.


Ooh! I want to hear that one!

If Domingo can sing Simon Boccanegra, Melchior could certainly have sung Wotan. Interesting that they both started as baritones, but of the two I think Melchior would have been more credible. Siegmund is practically a baritone role anyway.


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## gardibolt

amfortas said:


> You meant either Act I, or the rarest Wagner recording known to man.


Yes, Act I, Scene III. Missing a few words there. Whoops.


----------



## howlingfantods

cheftimmyr said:


> Definitely adding that to the "buy soon" list... Thx for the tip! How is Toscanini's Wagner? I thought I remembered reading his Wagner was very rigid, I may be mistaken though


To a certain extent, when you're listening to Karajan and Solti, you're hearing Toscanini's Wagner. Toscanini was a radical of his time, with his maniacal focus on precision and transparency, completely at odds with the dense romanticism of Wagner performance practice before him. But yesterday's radical becomes today's conservatives, and you hear more Toscanini than Furtwangler or Knappertsbusch in most mid to late 20th century performances.

There's terrific lyricism in Toscanini, but to me, it's not Wagner's Wagner, no matter that Toscanini felt his literal approach was the most faithful to composer intentions. To me, it's vertical music making and doesn't have the horizontal mastery of transitions and phrasing that Furtwangler had.

I have these recordings in non-Pristine form. If I were spending my money for Pristine recordings by Toscanini, I'd probably opt for his Otello, personally. That's a damned good recording and really sounds great in Pristine remaster, well worth the money, much more so than his Wagner bleeding chunks.


----------



## DarkAngel

cheftimmyr said:


> I have embarked on the 1950 Furty La Scala Ring that I got in my* bank-account-sapping order from Pristine XR*, and just finished Rheingold. This is my first time hearing Furtwangler conduct a cycle (I'm not counting the used vinyls I found, which were intolerable due to poor quality so I couldn't even get more than a few sides in).
> 
> *First, the sound as you would expect, is phenomenal. DA is always waxing poetic about Andrew Rose, but dude is legit with the sound restoration and the ambient stereo treatment*.


We must thank the mighty operas gods for Pristine XR's amazing sound restorations, then we must curse them for we can never be happy knowing there exists one of our favorite recordings that Pristine XR has remastered and we do not possess.....carry on lad


----------



## Pugg

Opera Depot:2 New Meistersingers

Cluytens | Furtwängler 


Prohaska, Lorenz, Müller, Fuchs; Furtwängler. Bayreuth, 1943
Wiener, Grümmer, Traxel, Hotter, Wächter, Stolze; Cluytens. Bayreuth, 1958

Happy shopping.


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## Barbebleu

Pugg said:


> Opera Depot:2 New Meistersingers
> 
> Cluytens | Furtwängler
> 
> Prohaska, Lorenz, Müller, Fuchs; Furtwängler. Bayreuth, 1943
> Wiener, Grümmer, Traxel, Hotter, Wächter, Stolze; Cluytens. Bayreuth, 1958
> 
> Happy shopping.


Plus a free download of Meistersinger, Frankfurt 1976.


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## DarkAngel

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2016/Jun/Wagner_Tannhauser_PACO130.htm

Great review posted for latest Pristine XR Wagner release, notice the last paragraph about sound giving praise to Andrew Rose for completely and easily surpassing sound of latest Sony remastered "wagner at the met" boxset, more more more......



That first paragraph is priceless commentary..........



> A week or two before reviewing this set, I attended a performance of _Tannhäuser_ at Covent Garden, and having listened to this Pristine issue how I wish I could have swapped my Covent Garden seat for one at the Met in 1941.


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## Barbebleu

Beg, borrow or steal Parsifal, Bayreuth 1971. Jochum is superb, as is Janis Martin, Sandor Konya and Franz Crass. Thomas Stewart is brilliant as Amfortas but a special mention goes to Gerd Nienstedt as a beautifully sung but wonderfully malevolent Klingsor. Act 2 is a joy. This is now one of my favourite Parsifals, easily ranking with most of the Knappertsbusch ones.


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## Figleaf

cheftimmyr said:


> This is all I can find on Amazon, does this look correct? Not sure about the sound quality on Pearl label, I don't have anything from them yet....
> 
> View attachment 84194


This Pearl CD of Schorr and Melchior in highlights from Meistersinger is now available from Presto, priced at £3.67, if anyone's interested.

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Pearl/GEMM9944


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## Woodduck

Barbebleu said:


> Beg, borrow or steal Parsifal, Bayreuth 1971. Jochum is superb, as is Janis Martin, Sandor Konya and Franz Crass. Thomas Stewart is brilliant as Amfortas but a special mention goes to Gerd Nienstedt as a beautifully sung but wonderfully malevolent Klingsor. Act 2 is a joy. This is now one of my favourite Parsifals, easily ranking with most of the Knappersbusch ones.


Given that it's $75 on Amazon, begging, borrowing and stealing are the only methods whereby it will appear in my house.

Apparently it was recorded in mono. In 1971? I guess they weren't expecting commercial release.


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## Barbebleu

Woodduck said:


> Given that it's $75 on Amazon, begging, borrowing and stealing are the only methods whereby it will appear in my house.
> 
> Apparently it was recorded in mono. In 1971? I guess they weren't expecting commercial release.


http://www.operapassion.com/mp3-13823.html

This is the one I have. They may have this on cd too. Very good quality recording. One reviewer on Amazon complained of poor recording on his copy but I can't say I noticed anything wrong. At this price it is a steal!


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## DarkAngel

^^^ I was wondering where that 71 Parsifal was sourced since operadepot has 72 (but not 71) and Amazon CD set is ultra expensive......just did a quick count operadepot has 32 different Parsifals from 1949-77 mostly Bayreuth but also other locations


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## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> ^^^ I was wondering where that 71 Parsifal was sourced since operadepot has 72 (but not 71) and Amazon CD set is ultra expensive......just did a quick count operadepot has 32 different Parsifals from 1949-77 mostly Bayreuth but also other locations


I've a horrible feeling that I have all of them!! Aargh


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## Barbebleu

Last night I finished listening to Kna's studio Meistersinger. Really enjoyed it. Schoeffler is a great Sachs, Treptow a capable if slightly nasal sounding Walther, Edelmann is a fine Pogner, Gueden a girlish but slightly wavery Eva, Dermota sings one of the best Davids I have heard and Else Schurhoff is ok but too matronly sounding as Magdalena. Kna is brilliant. At the start I thought he was a little slow but this was an illusion. He gives the singers time to breathe and Sachs's monologues all sound beautifully paced and highly conversational. Kna's use of rallentando, ritordando and accelerando is exceptional and the whole thing just seems so organic and well conceived. I am looking forward to listening to his take, ten years later, at Bayreuth in 1960.


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## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> ^^^ I was wondering where that 71 Parsifal was sourced since operadepot has 72 (but not 71) and Amazon CD set is ultra expensive......just did a quick count operadepot has 32 different Parsifals from 1949-77 mostly Bayreuth but also other locations


There are a few that seem to be cut that I won't bother with but there are eleven that I don't have but as I write I am remedying that by getting Milan 1960 and Koln 1949. The rest gradually over the next few months. I know, it's a curse but .....


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## howlingfantods

Just a heads up that opera depot has a sale on Carlos Kleiber recordings: http://operadepot.com/collections/carlos-kleiber?mc_cid=26b23ba14c&mc_eid=9e4cf2b684

Many Tristan & Isolde live recordings listed here. I have the 1974 Bayreuth (and a 1978 la Scala that operadepot doesn't have listed here, unfortunate since that may be my favorite of the three Kleiber recordings I have including the famous studio recording). Not sure how the sound quality is on Opera Depot but they're usually pretty good around this era. I'd stay away from the 1973 since that's got the awful Hans Hopf but Ligendza and Wenkoff/Brilioth are quite good.

(also a recording of a la Scala Otello with Domingo/Freni/Cappuccili that looks pretty promising)


----------



## cheftimmyr

howlingfantods said:


> Just a heads up that opera depot has a sale on Carlos Kleiber recordings: http://operadepot.com/collections/carlos-kleiber?mc_cid=26b23ba14c&mc_eid=9e4cf2b684
> 
> Many Tristan & Isolde live recordings listed here. I have the 1974 Bayreuth (and a 1978 la Scala that operadepot doesn't have listed here, unfortunate since that may be my favorite of the three Kleiber recordings I have including the famous studio recording). Not sure how the sound quality is on Opera Depot but they're usually pretty good around this era. I'd stay away from the 1973 since that's got the awful Hans Hopf but Ligendza and Wenkoff/Brilioth are quite good.
> 
> (also a recording of a la Scala Otello with Domingo/Freni/Cappuccili that looks pretty promising)


Done! Thanks for the recs.

I've also finished 1950 Furt cycle and finishing '64 Parisfal (Knap; Vickers)... Will give thoughts soon...

(I'm adding to this post instead of making another one)...

I've made my way through the 1950 Furtwangler Cycle and I'm glad that I have it in my collection. The maestro leading the orchestra was, by far, the highlight of this cycle. Siegfried as a whole had the weakest cast, in my estimation, and it was very noticeable. Flagstad was the saving grace, as in Gotterdamerung but Lorenz was a better Siegfried to my ear than Svetholm so that helped as well. I'll definitely be revisiting this cycle again, Furty crushes it!

And I got to the '64 Parsifal (Knap) with Jon Vickers. I can't say enough how much I enjoyed this! It was the first time I've heard Vickers in that role (and I only heard him for the first time last week in HvK's Fidelio; any other Vickers I need to seek out?!?!). What a voice! I've grown to really like Jess Thomas but being able to hear Vickers bring something slightly different to the role, was a great surprise. In Act II when he begins his "Amfortas..." lament, the tragic passion and pain he conveys is gripping. In fact, the whole of Act II was off the hook. I don't think I've heard Barbro Ericsson at all, but I thought she did a great job in Act II as the seductive Kundry. (I didn't get the pscyho-frenetic quality that I heard from Modl in the past in Act I). From the entrance of the Flower Maidens through Kundry's "Ich sah das Kind" and the "Amfortas..." lament I felt like I was in another world.

Knap was a wizard in the pit. The amount of intensity and emotion, interspersed with occasional serenity (Good Friday music) was spot on. I've thought that the '62 Knap would always reign supreme for me but after hearing this it's more like a 1a. and 1b. Still need to hear the Kubelik; can't get enough of "Parsifal"!!!.... and the Kempe Meistersinger (Pristine Classical) is staring me down as well...


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## gardibolt

Listening to the 1930 Bayreuth Tannhäuser conducted by Elmendorff (Naxos Historical; Marston transfer). Man, he takes this fast. I can believe the stories that the opera was prepared by Toscanini but he couldn't conduct for contractual reasons. Sound recorded by Columbia on the Bayreuth stage but without an audience is a bit on the primitive side but I have to say really good for 1930. The vocals are downright weird--I'm not sure that Siegfried Wagner engaged a cast that was capable of actually performing this opera. Maybe that's why it was so fast....Elmendorff wanted to get it over with?


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## DarkAngel

> And I got to the '64 Parsifal (Knap) with Jon Vickers. I can't say enough how much I enjoyed this! It was the first time I've heard Vickers in that role (and I only heard him for the first time last week in HvK's Fidelio; *any other Vickers I need to seek out?!*?!).












A great studio stereo 62 Walkure with superior cast and MET veteran Leinsdorf conducting.......

Also 68 live MET Walkure in very good sound......










And of course Karajan Ring and Tristan


----------



## Barbebleu

cheftimmyr said:


> Done! Thanks for the recs.
> 
> I've also finished 1950 Furt cycle and finishing '64 Parisfal (Knap; Vickers)... Will give thoughts soon...
> 
> (I'm adding to this post instead of making another one)...
> 
> I've made my way through the 1950 Furtwangler Cycle and I'm glad that I have it in my collection. The maestro leading the orchestra was, by far, the highlight of this cycle. Siegfried as a whole had the weakest cast, in my estimation, and it was very noticeable. Flagstad was the saving grace, as in Gotterdamerung but Lorenz was a better Siegfried to my ear than Svetholm so that helped as well. I'll definitely be revisiting this cycle again, Furty crushes it!
> 
> And I got to the '64 Parsifal (Knap) with Jon Vickers. I can't say enough how much I enjoyed this! It was the first time I've heard Vickers in that role (and I only heard him for the first time last week in HvK's Fidelio; any other Vickers I need to seek out?!?!). What a voice! I've grown to really like Jess Thomas but being able to hear Vickers bring something slightly different to the role, was a great surprise. In Act II when he begins his "Amfortas..." lament, the tragic passion and pain he conveys is gripping. In fact, the whole of Act II was off the hook. I don't think I've heard Barbro Ericsson at all, but I thought she did a great job in Act II as the seductive Kundry. (I didn't get the pscyho-frenetic quality that I heard from Modl in the past in Act I). From the entrance of the Flower Maidens through Kundry's "Ich sah das Kind" and the "Amfortas..." lament I felt like I was in another world.
> 
> Knap was a wizard in the pit. The amount of intensity and emotion, interspersed with occasional serenity (Good Friday music) was spot on. I've thought that the '62 Knap would always reign supreme for me but after hearing this it's more like a 1a. and 1b. Still need to hear the Kubelik; can't get enough of "Parsifal"!!!.... and the Kempe Meistersinger (Pristine Classical) is staring me down as well...


Vickers brings a lot to any party he comes to. Otello, Radames and Peter Grimes are three of his greatest roles and well worth seeking out in any incarnation. He also sings Siegmund in Knappertsbusch's 1958 Bayreuth Ring.


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## DarkAngel

This 41 Tristan is the final Flagstad Isolde performance at the MET as she was soon to return to Norway during the war, the performance itself is nicely detailed in the Jackson MET book, the live sound is very good in the version I show.

Jackson is a bit critical of Flagstad's more dramatic delivery here comparing it to a broadsword slashing Tristan in act 1, yet this is what I like most about it, the other principals are given uniform high praise for outstanding performances. Also some mention that Leinsdorf is not as atmospheric in slower sections, but overall all things considered this may be my very favorite Flagstad Isolde if I could only have one.....

Her very next performance for MET radio was the great Fidelio which Pristine XR has beautifully remastered.....


----------



## howlingfantods

DarkAngel said:


> A great studio stereo 62 Walkure with superior cast and MET veteran Leinsdorf conducting.......
> 
> Also 68 live MET Walkure in very good sound......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And of course Karajan Ring and Tristan


Also one of my favorite Vickers recordings, the Orange Tristan & Isolde with Nilsson and Bohm, an excellent live recording but with some wind noise on the apparently unshielded mics. I've not watched the video, but I gather Vickers is his typical wooden self so maybe just stick to the audio recording.

He's also terrific in non-Wagner stuff--I particularly like his Winterreise, he was on the classic Klemperer and Karajan Fidelios, the famed live Giulini Don Carlo with Brouwenstijn, and a couple of terrific Otellos with Serafin and Karajan.


----------



## Barbebleu

I'm currently listening to Parsifal Bayreuth 1962. Excellent. I've also just added Tristan Bayreuth 1958 to my collection, and also recently added Parsifals from Paris 1976, Munich 1977, Milan 1960 and Rome 1970. Haven't the foggiest when I'll ever get round to hearing them. 50% off sale at Opera Depot. It seemed churlish not to take advantage of it. The Tristan Bayreuth was from another source.


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## Barbebleu

Over the next couple of weeks I shall be climbing into my time and space machine and travelling back to the Bayreuth Festival of 1958. I will start with the Lohengrin performance on the 23rd July, followed by Tristan on the 26th, Rheingold on the 27th, Walkure on the 28th, Siegfried on the 30th and Gotterdammerung on the 1st August. Then I've got Meistersinger on the 23rd of August. I shall then see Parsifal sometime in August, not sure when as I haven't got my ticket for that yet. It may even be July. I am looking forward to my trip and I shall report back accordingly. Who knows, if I enjoy it enough I may just set the controls for 1959!!


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## Barbebleu

Does anyone have the MYTO recording of Tristan from Bayreuth 1958. If you do, can you tell me who is singing the part of the junger seeman please. All the reviews I have seen refer to this having been recorded on 21 August 1958. Knowing who sang that part will either confirm or deny this assertion. Thank you fans.


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## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> Does anyone have the MYTO recording of Tristan from Bayreuth 1958. If you do, can you tell me who is singing the part of the junger seeman please. All the reviews I have seen refer to this having been recorded on 21 August 1958. Knowing who sang that part will either confirm or deny this assertion. Thank you fans.


Your wish is my command, recorded 8/21/1958 and the seeman singing who upsets lady Isolde early in opening of opera is none other than Sandor Konya..........a worthy purchase

Eight years later same couple will record famous Bohm version for DG


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## gardibolt

double posted whoopsie daisie


----------



## gardibolt

Ran across a nifty Wagner discography that I've not seen reference to before: wagnerdisco.net It's still under construction (no Ring cycles listed yet) but it has a ton of info about recordings of Wagner's other operas....I had no idea that Rienzi had been recorded 35 times.

His listing for the Myto above indicates that the date is incorrect. Interesting.

http://wagnerdisco.net/audio/tristan-und-isolde/1950-1959/1958-07-26-sawallisch-bayreuth/

Both he and operadis claim the Junger Seeman is Josef Traxel on the Myto disc....

http://www.operadis-opera-discography.org.uk/CLWATRIS.HTM#50

I can see why there is confusion.


----------



## Barbebleu

gardibolt said:


> Ran across a nifty Wagner discography that I've not seen reference to before: wagnerdisco.net It's still under construction (no Ring cycles listed yet) but it has a ton of info about recordings of Wagner's other operas....I had no idea that Rienzi had been recorded 35 times.
> 
> His listing for the Myto above indicates that the date is incorrect. Interesting.
> 
> http://wagnerdisco.net/audio/tristan-und-isolde/1950-1959/1958-07-26-sawallisch-bayreuth/
> 
> Both he and operadis claim the Junger Seeman is Josef Traxel on the Myto disc....
> 
> http://www.operadis-opera-discography.org.uk/CLWATRIS.HTM#50
> 
> I can see why there is confusion.


Yes, the version I have has the date as 26 July with Josef Traxel and it sounds like a radio broadcast complete with introductory fanfares. I have a sneaking suspicion that it might be a different version. I'd need to compare the two sailors to be absolutely sure.


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> Your wish is my command, recorded 8/21/1958 and the seeman singing who upsets lady Isolde early in opening of opera is none other than Sandor Konya..........a worthy purchase
> 
> Eight years later same couple will record famous Bohm version for DG


DA. Does it sound like Konya to you compared to his voice on other recordings? He sang Lohengrin that year so if you have that perhaps you could compare and contrast if you get a chance.
The Act 1 prelude lasts just under eleven minutes. The whole act lasts 1hr 21 mins. and there are a couple of audible pops at about 9' and a loud cough at 9' 13".


----------



## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> DA. Does it sound like Konya to you compared to his voice on other recordings? He sang Lohengrin that year so if you have that perhaps you could compare and contrast if you get a chance.
> The Act 1 prelude lasts just under eleven minutes. The whole act lasts 1hr 21 mins. and there are a couple of audible pops at about 9' and a loud cough at 9' 13".


The seemann song at opening is sung as if off in the distance so hard to ID voice, but it would seem unlikely that Konya would sing such a minor role at that point in his career.....also when I compare Sawallisch 58 myto and 57 walhall Bayreuth seemann parts they sound the same person to me, so I would "guess" Walter Geisler singing both

The Myto 58 booklet definitely says Konya......


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> The seemann song at opening is sung as if off in the distance so hard to ID voice, but it would seem unlikely that Konya would sing such a minor role at that point in his career.....also when I compare Sawallisch 58 myto and 57 walhall Bayreuth seemann parts they sound the same person to me, so I would "guess" Walter Geisler singing both
> 
> The Myto 58 booklet definitely says Konya......


The official Bayreuth cast lists say that Konya sang that part on 21 and 25 August that year and that Josef Traxel sang it on 26 July. I'm not convinced that the MYTO is dated correctly though. Geisler only sang at Bayreuth in 1957. The version I have definitely doesn't sound like Konya who, to my ears, has a more _Italianate_ voice and it isn't too distant either. The mystery deepens.


----------



## cheftimmyr

I took a break from Parsifal listening. My latest conquest: Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg (Kempe) 1956; Pristine Classical









This was an immensely enjoyable listen and I continue to be spoiled by having added Andrew Rose's remasterings to my library (shoutout DA!).

The first thing I noticed was the balance in the opening overture. Compared to the Kubelik (the only Meistersinger I've listened to fully, until now) the orchestral balance between brass and strings allowed me to hear a lot more layering in the strings section which was a revelation for me; really beautiful. In fact, I really gravitated to how Kempe led the orchestra for the entire opera. To convey my comparison between the Kubelik vs this recording- If I were in a concert hall I'd love to hear Kubelik with the baton; in the opera house though, I'd want Kempe.

First time hearing Rudolph Schock and his Walther knocked my socks off, so to speak; his Prize Song was absolutely beautiful (Any other Schock recordings I should be looking for?). Elisabeth Grümmer sings an Eva that I couldn't get enough of. Such a pure expression of femininity. This was also my first time hearing Ferdinand Frantz and I really connected with his portrayal of Sachs; never a moment he didn't have my attention.

This will definitely be revisited for many, many years to come. What a "Prize" to have in my collection...! (Couldn't resist, sorry)


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## DarkAngel

^^^^^ Many people (myself included) find Grummer to the best Eva ever, Schock is mainly known as an operetta and light opera singer but he recorded a few wagner performances the most famous of which is the Kempe Meister you have










^^^ The inspiration for Walther's "morgenlich leuchtend"


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## Woodduck

cheftimmyr said:


> I took a break from Parsifal listening. My latest conquest: Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg (Kempe) 1956; Pristine Classical
> 
> View attachment 86370
> 
> 
> This was an immensely enjoyable listen and I continue to be spoiled by having added Andrew Rose's remasterings to my library (shoutout DA!).
> 
> The first thing I noticed was the balance in the opening overture. Compared to the Kubelik (the only Meistersinger I've listened to fully, until now) the orchestral balance between brass and strings allowed me to hear a lot more layering in the strings section which was a revelation for me; really beautiful. In fact, I really gravitated to how Kempe led the orchestra for the entire opera. To convey my comparison between the Kubelik vs this recording- If I were in a concert hall I'd love to hear Kubelik with the baton; in the opera house though, I'd want Kempe.
> 
> First time hearing Rudolph Schock and his Walther knocked my socks off, so to speak; his Prize Song was absolutely beautiful (Any other Schock recordings I should be looking for?). Elisabeth Grümmer sings an Eva that I couldn't get enough of. Such a pure expression of femininity. This was also my first time hearing Ferdinand Frantz and I really connected with his portrayal of Sachs; never a moment he didn't have my attention.
> 
> This will definitely be revisited for many, many years to come. What a "Prize" to have in my collection...! (Couldn't resist, sorry)


I bought that _Meistersinger_ on LP around 1967. If there's a better overall performance I haven't heard it. Every role is well taken, some - especially Eva - unsurpassably, and Kempe knows everything about the work. Congrats on discovering it.


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## DarkAngel

> The first thing I noticed was the balance in the opening overture. Compared to the Kubelik (the only Meistersinger I've listened to fully, until now) the orchestral balance between brass and strings allowed me to hear a lot more layering in the strings section which was a revelation for me; really beautiful. *In fact, I really gravitated to how Kempe led the orchestra for the entire opera*. To convey my comparison between the Kubelik vs this recording- If I were in a concert hall I'd love to hear Kubelik with the baton; in the opera house though, I'd want Kempe.


You may have this already but the 60 Kempe Ring (Bayreuth) is really great available cheap on Myto label, major roles are shared during ring, Wotan - Uhde/Hines, Brunhilde - Varnay/Nilsson but all highest quality singers.......


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## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> You may have this already but the 60 Kempe Ring (Bayreuth) is really great available cheap on Myto label, major roles are shared during ring, Wotan - Uhde/Hines, Brunhilde - Varnay/Nilsson but all highest quality singers.......


I do have that Cycle in my possession; it is currently in line behind '55 Testament (Keilberth) & '57 Walhall (Knap)... Still so much to listen to for the first time!


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## cheftimmyr

50% off ALL Knap recordings at Opera Depot...


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## gardibolt

cheftimmyr said:


> 50% off ALL Knap recordings at Opera Depot...


Plus a free 1942 Kna Parsifal Act III....


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## cheftimmyr

What a beauty this was! Maybe my favorite Walküre to date.

I have been officially baptized into the work of Mr Melchior. Now I know what all the fuss is about. The depth and intricacy that he brings to the role of Siegmund left me in awe. It was as if every single word had been thought about deliberately and the tone and intensity which they were delivered all had a specific purpose. While this might give the impression of a cerebral-only interpretation, its not. The intelligence of his connection with Siegmund coupled with his beautiful timbre and emotion took me to a place that I will forever compare all other Siegmunds to. The fact that I have only just now heard a full Melchior performance almost one year into listening to Wagner I don't consider a negative. On the contrary, I believe that hearing others first sing the role put me in a position to immediately appreciate the artistry and talent of this Heldentenor. (I'm going to start collecting Melchior recordings next so any favorites, and their associated labels, I'd be grateful for).

The rest of the cast was strong and I particularly enjoyed Marjorie Lawrence as Sieglinde; It was great to hear Flagstad from 1940 as most of my Flagstad listening has been from the '50s. Leinsdorf led a swift, but not jarring, orchestra. The whole performance melded very well to my ears.

The only thing I had to "get over" was the sound. Even with Andrew Rose's remastering Im just not used to listening to 1940's (and earlier) recordings. It wasn't a major bother, but enough to notice, and enough to make me appreciate the technological recording advances in the 1950's. I am still wondering what it would be like to hear Melchior's singing recorded present day; what a dream that would be!


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## DarkAngel

Great comments Chefty......the reason we have great complete recordings like that is MET radio broadcast program, all discussed in great detail with fabulous pix in volume one of Paul Jackson MET series (3 books total)










Now you now the routine, if Pristine XR remasters any wagner recording, buy buy buy


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## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> Great comments Chefty......the reason we have great complete recordings like that is MET radio broadcast program, all discussed in great detail with fabulous pix in volume one of Paul Jackson MET series (3 books total)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now you now the routine, if Pristine XR remasters any wagner recording, buy buy buy


Here, here! I'm slowly working my way through Jackson and it's been very educational. Another Pristine order soon, methinks...


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## DarkAngel

Chefty put this in your next Pristine XR buy basket, a 3 volume "studio" 1926-32 potted ring by Obert-Thorn and Andrew Rose, the sound is off the charts since these use electrical recording technology and studio recording conditions.......

This is an essential Melchior wagner document in freshest voice


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## Barbebleu

cheftimmyr said:


> View attachment 86496
> 
> 
> What a beauty this was! Maybe my favorite Walküre to date.
> 
> I have been officially baptized into the work of Mr Melchior. Now I know what all the fuss is about. The depth and intricacy that he brings to the role of Siegmund left me in awe. It was as if every single word had been thought about deliberately and the tone and intensity which they were delivered all had a specific purpose. While this might give the impression of a cerebral-only interpretation, its not. The intelligence of his connection with Siegmund coupled with his beautiful timbre and emotion took me to a place that I will forever compare all other Siegmunds to. The fact that I have only just now heard a full Melchior performance almost one year into listening to Wagner I don't consider a negative. On the contrary, I believe that hearing others first sing the role put me in a position to immediately appreciate the artistry and talent of this Heldentenor. (I'm going to start collecting Melchior recordings next so any favorites, and their associated labels, I'd be grateful for).
> 
> The rest of the cast was strong and I particularly enjoyed Marjorie Lawrence as Sieglinde; It was great to hear Flagstad from 1940 as most of my Flagstad listening has been from the '50s. Leinsdorf led a swift, but not jarring, orchestra. The whole performance melded very well to my ears.
> 
> The only thing I had to "get over" was the sound. Even with Andrew Rose's remastering Im just not used to listening to 1940's (and earlier) recordings. It wasn't a major bother, but enough to notice, and enough to make me appreciate the technological recording advances in the 1950's. I am still wondering what it would be like to hear Melchior's singing recorded present day; what a dream that would be!


I mostly agree with you Chef. I have a couple of quibbles and I know this is probably going to upset a couple of my fellow posters. As wonderful a singer as Melchior was I'm not always happy about the liberties he takes with Wagner's music. The "Walses" are just showboating, and he has a tendency, at times, to wander off the note and also can take liberties with his tempi. Certainly he was a great Wagnerian singer and no one nowadays can hold a candle to him but he was not perfect. Almost, but not absolute. That said, I could listen to him all day and often have. I have a vinyl album that I bought a donkey's age ago with him singing Swedish folk songs as well as opera and he is a delight. His Otello, sung in German!, is just fantastic, as is his Pagliacci.


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## cheftimmyr

Barbebleu said:


> I mostly agree with you Chef. I have a couple of quibbles and I know this is probably going to upset a couple of my fellow posters. As wonderful a singer as Melchior was I'm not always happy about the liberties he takes with Wagner's music. The "Walses" are just showboating, and he has a tendency, at times, to wander off the note and also can take liberties with his tempi. Certainly he was a great Wagnerian singer and no one nowadays can hold a candle to him but he was not perfect. Almost, but not absolute. That said, I could listen to him all day and often have. I have a vinyl album that I bought a donkey's age ago with him singing Swedish folk songs as well as opera and he is a delight. His Otello, sung in German!, is just fantastic, as is his Pagliacci.


Thanks for your thoughts. I think for the most part I'm resigned to the fact that perfection is unattainable but the pursuit of it is most noteworthy. To my ears I haven't heard a better Siegmund but I have a lot of listening left to go. I'm also not opposed to a bit of showboating when done effectively (the "Walses" were incredible, even if showy)!


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## Woodduck

Melchior may have started the "tradition" of holding "Walse! Walse!" way past the notated values, but damn! I don't begrudge him a millisecond of it. It's easy to forgive him a few rhythmic inaccuracies or rushed phrases when so many other so-called heldentenors are just plain unforgivable. The man's sheer animal vitality infused with life every note he ever sang.

I love to watch him in some of his Hollywood movie appearances, not only to share in his joie de vivre but to marvel at how easy he made it all look. Watch how he takes a high note and swells the intensity to hurricane force without breaking a sweat:






Based on his recorded excerpts, its a pity the Met didn't let him do _Pagliacci_ and _Otello_. I guess he was just too busy singing Wagner with those other vocal pygmies Leider, Flagstad, Lawrence and Traubel (makes you sick, doesn't it? ). But here's what they didn't get to hear:











The man was surely brought here from Valhalla by a rookie valkyrie who didn't get that she was supposed to fly heroes in the other direction.


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## Woodduck

Now here's an interesting lecture I just ran across while sampling Melchior on YouTube. It's about Italian singers who did Wagner in German and German singers who did Verdi in German. At 9:40 is an absolutely spellbinding "Mein lieber Schwan" sung in Italian by Aureliano Pertile, Toscanini's favorite tenor at La Scala. I guarantee you've never heard the like of it! Also here are three bits from the legendary 1930 La Scala _Tristan_ under De Sabata, starring Italian heldentenor Renato Zanelli, the ill-fated Giuseppina Cobelli (she went deaf and then died at 50), Ebe Stignani, Luigi Rossi-Morelli, and Antonio Righetti.






The full Tristan excerpts - all we have, alas - can be heard here:






Its amazing how a truly great performance comes across vividly in even the worst sound imaginable. De Sabata was surely one of the finest opera conductors of all time, in Wagner as well as in the Italian repertoire. Italian soprano Mafalda Favero said that Cobelli's Isolde "absolutely always tore me apart" and expressed her gratitude for "the pain she had made me suffer, a sort of cleansing and purification." Zanelli was learning Tristan in German when he too died too young. Stignani sang quite a lot of Wagner in Italian.

Here is De Sabata's _Tristan_ Prelude:






Wagner would have loved his flexible pacing. The piece emerges as the mini-drama which it is.


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## cheftimmyr

I remembered that this recording came in the mail a month or two ago, and I had yet to listen. Since it was a Melchior/Flagstad performance it was a no brainer to listen immediately.

This is the first recording from Immortal Performances that I've purchased and, honestly, it might be my last. For a "remastered" and "restored" recording I wasn't bowled over. I'm not trying to sound ungrateful or spoiled, but most of the recording was a challenge to listen to which I wasn't expecting. For a good portion of the opera the static and background noise was equal to, and sometimes overshadowed, the orchestra and singing. Act 1 was a particular challenge, maybe because there is more movement and the mic placement wasn't as optimal back in the day. Act 2 was great hearing Melchior and Flagstad go back and forth. The Liebestod was phenomenal!

The packaging and accompanying literature that comes with the recording are very nice and well made; I'll use this as a reference recording for some specific moments with Melchior and Flagstad but I don't think I'll be sitting down and listening straight through again, anytime in the near future at least.

I remember DA saying that the IP remastering uses a different process and approach compared to Pristine. Maybe I was expecting a Pristine experience which inevitably set me up to be a little disappointed. I'm glad I have the recording but it came at dear $$$.

If I've got this all wrong I'm more than happy to hear differing opinions on the IP Label.

Next up: Testament Ring Cycle (1955, Keilberth)


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## Barbebleu

Isn't YouTube a wonderful source for difficult to find music. All that golden age material that people have made available for our listening pleasure is a joy.


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## DarkAngel

cheftimmyr said:


> View attachment 86513
> 
> 
> I remember DA saying that the IP remastering uses a different process and approach compared to Pristine. Maybe I was expecting a Pristine experience which inevitably set me up to be a little disappointed. I'm glad I have the recording but it came at dear $$$.


Yes IP is definitely not cheap, but remember they quote price in Canadian dollars. And the actual sound remastering techniques are very minimal compared to Pristine XR so many IP recordings are going to sound rough by comparison, the unique feature of IP is that singers or segments from different performances are sometimes combined together into a composite performance trying to recreate a dream team "immortal performance" that did not actually occur

Also they have nice packaging and booklet with IP releases......


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## gardibolt

Caniell (Immortal Performances) has a very different approach; he prefers to leave the sound alone other than removing clicks and pops, so to modern ears it can sound very cluttered. On the other hand, he has no compunctions about splicing together performances that may have occurred years and half a globe apart to create a "Dream" version. He's an interesting guy, but not to all tastes. I treasure my Dream Ring from him, while I acknowledge it can be a tough listen if you're not steeped in historic broadcast quality and are looking for something modern-sounding. In that case, you're best off with Pristine and Andrew Rose's spectacular work.

I should note that even these rough-sounding items sound worlds ahead of what was once offered on LP for such things--the 1950 Furtwängler Ring in particular was ghastly rubbish, and in its Pristine incarnation it's incredibly wonderful.


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## gardibolt

Speaking of Pristine, the new offering today from them is Nilsson's first engagement at the Met with Ramon Vinay as Tristan und Isolde, under the baton of Karl Böhm. It's from a matinee broadcast about 3 weeks after Nilsson's Met debut. Haven't heard it yet but it looks like a must based on the excellent quality of their recent Met Wagner presentations.


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## Barbebleu

gardibolt said:


> Speaking of Pristine, the new offering today from them is Nilsson's first engagement at the Met with Ramon Vinay as Tristan und Isolde, under the baton of Karl Böhm. It's from a matinee broadcast about 3 weeks after Nilsson's Met debut. Haven't heard it yet but it looks like a must based on the excellent quality of their recent Met Wagner presentations.


Yes. I listened to the sample and immediately downloaded it. Looking forward to getting around to listening to it.


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## cheftimmyr

The provided analysis on the Pristine site references Karl Liebl standing in for "the indisposed Vinay" as Tristan; I'm curious why Pristine still lists Vinay on the artwork and cast information.

Have to add this to my collection


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## howlingfantods

cheftimmyr said:


> The provided analysis on the Pristine site references Karl Liebl standing in for "the indisposed Vinay" as Tristan; I'm curious why Pristine still lists Vinay on the artwork and cast information.
> 
> Have to add this to my collection


The contemporary reviews were from the opening night, where the recording is from the same season and set of performances a few weeks later. I'm sure Pristine is being accurate about the cast on the actual recording.

I'm curious how Vinay sounds on this since he was beginning to transition to mostly baritone roles around this time. For those who have already picked this up, any signs of strain on his part? I'd love to have him in better sound and with my all time favorite Isolde instead of paired with Modl on the Karajan.


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## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> Speaking of Pristine, the new offering today from them is Nilsson's first engagement at the Met with Ramon Vinay as Tristan und Isolde, under the baton of Karl Böhm. It's from a matinee broadcast about 3 weeks after Nilsson's Met debut. Haven't heard it yet but it looks like a must based on the excellent quality of their recent Met Wagner presentations.












Looks like same performance as this Walhall......as usual buy buy buy


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## interestedin

cheftimmyr said:


> View attachment 86513
> 
> 
> I remember DA saying that the IP remastering uses a different process and approach compared to Pristine. Maybe I was expecting a Pristine experience which inevitably set me up to be a little disappointed.


What you describe as a Pristine experience simply means the source was better. You can't compare this remastering to Pristine releases of different recordings of that era. The Potted Ring and Walter's 1935 Walküre act 1 were both studio recordings and the Pristine 1940 Walküre sounds considerably better than this IP set even on the MET's Wagner box.

There is a reason why there have been several other Flagstad/Melchior Tristans released on CD on various labels over the last 30 years prior to this Bodanzky from 1937. Not a good first choice. Others (like Beecham or Reiner) sound better no matter which label you choose.


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## cheftimmyr

interestedin said:


> What you describe as a Pristine experience simply means the source was better. You can't compare this remastering to Pristine releases of different recordings of that era. The Potted Ring and Walter's 1935 Walküre act 1 were both studio recordings and the Pristine 1940 Walküre sounds considerably better than this IP set even on the MET's Wagner box.
> 
> There is a reason why there have been several other Flagstad/Melchior Tristans released on CD on various labels over the last 30 years prior to this Bodanzky from 1937. Not a good first choice. Others (like Beecham or Reiner) sound better no matter which label you choose.


I think I get where you're coming from on this. I agree that the quality of the source recording is of vast importance. It seems to me though that Pristine and IP have different philosophies on remastering recordings. A preservationist vs enhancing, point of view if you will. I do believe that if Pristine were to remaster, rebalance and cut a lot of the ambient static and "buzz" in the recording referenced, it would yield a more listenable experience. At the price of being "historically accurate as to what the masses heard when it was originally broadcast", I'd opt for the former albeit selfishly. Just my 2 cents.


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## cheftimmyr

Before embarking on my first listen of the 1955 Testament Ring, I took a short detour and listened to the Hans Sachs of Friedrich Schorr. I've been encountering several artists for the first time of late (Melchior, Schock and now Schorr), and I'm glad I heeded the advice of other members on this thread and picked up this compilation. Being studio recordings was of great help, having Schorr's vocals upfront balanced nicely by the orchestra. Was cool hearing the Quintet with Melchior and Schumann. Although sometimes you might lose some of the dramatic interpretation from artists in studio recordings, I thought this was an excellent and enjoyable listen. Schorr's tone and cadence were lovely; even and smooth, with such depth. This will remain on my shelf within arms reach... (Along with the '56 Kempe Meister...)!


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## cheftimmyr

Has anyone seen or heard of this compilation "The Tenor Heroes of Bayreuth"?


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## Barbebleu

cheftimmyr said:


> View attachment 86608
> 
> 
> Has anyone seen or heard of this compilation "The Tenor Heroes of Bayreuth"?


Yep. I've got this Chef. Very good although my one complaint is that there is a long track with Winifred Wagner talking about Bayreuth and there is no English translation. So unless your German is up to scratch you have a problem. There are some real curiosities and some real gems. If it's a good price it's worth it although as I recall you are not a fan of early recording techniques so you might be a bit disappointed with some of it.


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## cheftimmyr

Barbebleu said:


> Yep. I've got this Chef. Very good although my one complaint is that there is a long track with Winifred Wagner talking about Bayreuth and there is no English translation. So unless your German is up to scratch you have a problem. There are some real curiosities and some real gems. If it's a good price it's worth it although as I recall you are not a fan of early recording techniques so you might be a bit disappointed with some of it.


Thx! It's in a shop by my house right now for $10 so seemed like a good deal; I might pick it up today...


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## DarkAngel

Venus - Herta Wilfert

While Chefty explores the sonic and vocal glories of the 55 Ring we have a few more great documents of the Bayreuth festival that year....

The 55 Knap Dutchman has been mentioned many times here, one of the very best ever in great sound with all the legendary singers in prime voice, a magnificent performance........as well as the 55 Keilberth Dutchman in stereo on Testament label

The 55 Tannhauser is less well known, but it is another great performance with a new face Cluytens replacing Jochum at the last minute and making a huge positive impression assuring his return for future Bayreuth seasons. This is the second year of this tannhauser stage production and you have too see the great rare photos in the Orfeo booklet, a timeless modern visually intelligent staging that lets the music and stage action tell the story, the sets are incredibly impressive and I have seen nothing since to surpass them......the wagner grandsons hit a home run here!

The singers are the familiar icons except for the Venus - Herta Wilfert who is unknown to me but she did a great job, the talent pool is so deep with great wagner singers at this time, the sound is very good mono but I wonder if Testament has a stereo recording hidden somewhere.......more must have wagner


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## Barbebleu

My time machine has just brought me back from Bayreuth, 23 July 1958 and Wieland Wagner's first production of Lohengrin. The pastel colours offset by the vivid costumes of the chorus (who were brilliant BTW) and cast and Lohengrin's golden splendour made this as visually arresting a performance as you are likely to witness.

Andre Cluytens conducted a vigorous and musically engaging performance with a good ear for the pace, particularly in the four-square set pieces which in the wrong hands can seem very plodding and too martial.

Leonie Rysanek was very well sung although for me she was a touch over-parted. I couldn't see her being easily swayed by anyone, let alone Ortrud. Astrid Varnay was a sensational Ortrud with endless power over the whole evening and Ernest Blanc was a very musical and intelligently sung Telramund, a good match for his machiavelian partner.The herald was sung by Eberhard Waechter, a singer making his debut at Bayreuth who sounds as if he has a promising Wagnerian career ahead of him. Kieth Engen was a solid Heinrich and what can I say about Sandor Konya! His opening entrance was a visual and aural delight and his beauty of tone made him a truly memorable Lohengrin. The only thing that I noticed was a slight loss of control and pitch by both principals towards the end of Act 3, but as they had both sung their hearts out this was understandable and forgivable. You will travel a long way to hear Wagner sung and played as well as this was tonight.

Back in the time machine and off to Bayreuth 27 July 1958 for Tristan und Isolde. More from your roving reporter anon!!

In case you're wondering my time machine is disguised as a Bavarian police booth circa 1958!!


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## cheftimmyr

Barbebleu said:


> My time machine has just brought me back from Bayreuth, 23 July 1958 and Wieland Wagner's first production of Lohengrin. The pastel colours offset by the vivid costumes of the chorus (who were brilliant BTW) and cast and Lohengrin's golden splendour made this as visually arresting a performance as you are likely to witness.
> 
> Andre Cluytens conducted a vigorous and musically engaging performance with a good ear for the pace, particularly in the four-square set pieces which in the wrong hands can seem very plodding and too martial.
> 
> Leonie Rysanek was very well sung although for me she was a touch over-parted. I couldn't see her being easily swayed by anyone, let alone Ortrud. Astrid Varnay was a sensational Ortrud with endless power over the whole evening and Ernest Blanc was a very musical and intelligently sung Telramund, a good match for his machiavelian partner.The herald was sung by Eberhard Waechter, a singer making his debut at Bayreuth who sounds as if he has a promising Wagnerian career ahead of him. Kieth Engen was a solid Heinrich and what can I say about Sandor Konya! His opening entrance was a visual and aural delight and his beauty of tone made him a truly memorable Lohengrin. The only thing that I noticed was a slight loss of control and pitch by both principals towards the end of Act 3, but as they had both sung their hearts out this was understandable and forgivable. You will travel a long way to hear Wagner sung and played as well as all tonight.
> 
> Back in the time machine and off to Bayreuth 27 July 1958 for Tristan und Isolde. More from your roving reporter anon!!
> 
> In case you're wondering my time machine is disguised as a Bavarian police booth circa 1958!!


Barbie, I have that recording on the Walhall label but haven't listened to yet. Is there actual film of this performance one can watch?


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## Barbebleu

cheftimmyr said:


> Barbie, I have that recording on the Walhall label but haven't listened to yet. Is there actual film of this performance one can watch?


Sadly not. There are a few stills floating about of that production but maybe not of the specific performance I listened to. I used a little artistic licence to capture the flavour. I hope no one minds too much. I was going to go over the top and describe my walk through the town to the Margrave's rococco Opera House, followed by lunch at the Eule restaurant and then a leisurely walk back up Siegfried Wagner Allee up to the green hill and the theatre where I listened to the fanfare before entering the theatre. But I thought that might be a little far-fetched for some!! Fantastic Lohengrin though.


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## cheftimmyr

Barbebleu said:


> Sadly not. There are a few stills floating about of that production but maybe not of the specific performance I listened to. I used a little artistic licence to capture the flavour. I hope no one minds too much. I was going to go over the top and describe my walk through the town to the Margrave's rococco Opera House, followed by lunch at the Eule restaurant and then a leisurely walk back up Siegfried Wagner Allee up to the green hill and the theatre where I listened to the fanfare before entering the theatre. But I thought that might be a little far-fetched for some!! Fantastic Lohengrin though.


The artistic license made me feel I was missing out on something, so well said! Keep up the time machine!


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## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> My time machine has just brought me back from Bayreuth, 23 July *1958 and Wieland Wagner's first production of Lohengrin*. The pastel colours offset by the vivid costumes of the chorus (who were brilliant BTW) and cast and Lohengrin's golden splendour made this as visually arresting a performance as you are likely to witness.


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## Scopitone

Just finished the 1951 Karajan *Die Walkure *Act 3.

Wonderful. I have listened to the opera before in other versions, but this was the first time I followed along with the libretto and English side by side. I thought the sound was excellent, especially as an historical piece. You get a smidgen of audience fidget noises when it's quiet, but I suspect most live recordings will give you that.

Thank you, Spotify, for having all these wonderful classic recordings available to sample and discover.


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## amfortas

DarkAngel said:


>


Thanks for the historical photos, DA. Here's a production still from the current Bayreuth _Lohengrin_.


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## Scopitone

Kirsten Flagstad Edition: The Decca Recitals [10 CD Box Set]

Who has this one? What can you tell me about it? It looks divine.


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## Barbebleu

amfortas said:


> Thanks for the historical photos, DA. Here's a production still from the current Bayreuth _Lohengrin_.


Say it ain't so, Joe. Say it ain't so!


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## Scopitone

DarkAngel said:


> The three Paul Jackson MET books are priceless to me, such great info and photos, the only caveat is that radio from the MET started in 1931 so we don't have any discussion of previous period and singers.
> 
> I was reading in another book that the director of the MET in 1931 was not convinced that radio was an acceptable way for the public audience to experience opera, so the head of RCA set up special demonstration in MET directors office and then they listened to afternoon broadcast on RCA radio and everyone was very impressed.......radio MET opera became a big success and a major source of new revenue for the MET at the time
> 
> 
> 
> Back in the 1930s a typical home radio was a full size piece of furniture you would sit around like TV today.......


That book sounds great! Almost 600 pages and oversized hardcover.

Just ordered a used copy on amazon - $6.02 shipped. :tiphat:


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## DarkAngel

amfortas said:


> Thanks for the historical photos, DA. Here's a production still from the current Bayreuth _Lohengrin_.


Say Cheese...........Bayreuth Lohengrin 2010


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## DarkAngel

Scopitone said:


> Just finished the 1951 Karajan *Die Walkure *Act 3.
> 
> Wonderful. I have listened to the opera before in other versions, but this was the first time I followed along with the libretto and English side by side. I thought the sound was excellent, especially as an historical piece. You get a smidgen of audience fidget noises when it's quiet, but I suspect most live recordings will give you that.
> 
> Thank you, Spotify, for having all these wonderful classic recordings available to sample and discover.



















Because the recording teams (EMI & Decca) were not fully experienced yet at the new Bayreuth, and contract disputes with singers/conductors signed with various labels we don't have complete Ring for 51 but these two recordings are amazing documents!

Those Jackson MET books are priceless........you will be delighted


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## Woodduck

Scopitone said:


> View attachment 86872
> 
> Kirsten Flagstad Edition: The Decca Recitals [10 CD Box Set]
> 
> Who has this one? What can you tell me about it? It looks divine.


These are Flagstad's last recital albums, recorded for Decca in the late 1950s when she was over 60. There are treasurable things among them, including songs of Grieg, Schubert, Brahms, Mahler, Wagner, Sibelius, etc. There's sacred music - one disc, I think, is entirely hymns, another is Bach and Handel - and arias. Although her upper register is often taxed at this late date, her voice as a whole is wonderfully rich and steady as ever. You may not be interested in everything in the set; I've never even heard it all, but I have the Grieg and Sibelius songs and the Wagner _Wesendonck Lieder_ and Mahler _Kindertotenlieder_ on separate discs.


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## Scopitone

Thanks! 

Yes, I did listen to Wagner Wesendonck Lieder earlier today on a separate album.


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## interestedin

Scopitone said:


> View attachment 86872
> 
> Kirsten Flagstad Edition: The Decca Recitals [10 CD Box Set]
> 
> Who has this one? What can you tell me about it? It looks divine.


It's a great set but it doesn't belong here. It's 10 discs and 8.5 of them are not Wagner and of the 1.5 discs Wagner, nothing is historical. 

2 discs Norwegian hymns, 6 discs of Lieder and sacred songs. Various composers, mostly Schubert, Brahms, Schumann, Strauss, Bach, and Scandinavians, mostly Grieg and Sibelius.

It's great for the sound quality which gives us her full voice as rich as hardly ever before, but this is not the same singer we celebrate for her 30's and 40's Wagner recordings. If you want her Wesendonck Lieder, get the EMI set for which the y were recorded earlier, around 1948 I think. I like this one for the rare Scandinavian songs.


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## SiegendesLicht

^ I have that set also, and have not listened to everything on it yet, but I really love her singing the hymns in Norwegian.


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## Woodduck

interestedin said:


> It's a great set but it doesn't belong here. It's 10 discs and 8.5 of them are not Wagner and of the 1.5 discs Wagner, nothing is historical.
> 
> 2 discs Norwegian hymns, 6 discs of Lieder and sacred songs. Various composers, mostly Schubert, Brahms, Schumann, Strauss, Bach, and Scandinavians, mostly Grieg and Sibelius.
> 
> It's great for the sound quality which gives us her full voice as rich as hardly ever before, but this is not the same singer we celebrate for her 30's and 40's Wagner recordings. If you want her Wesendonck Lieder, get the EMI set for which the y were recorded earlier, around 1948 I think. I like this one for the rare Scandinavian songs.


Thanks for those details. By this time Flagstad was really a mezzo, and by that I don't mean simply a soprano without high notes. "Not the same singer" cuts two ways; there is effort at the top, but her lower register had acquired a deep and unique beauty, aged like a fine wine. I had her Sibelius songs - with orchestrated accompaniments - on LP back in the 1970s, and, at that point unfamiliar with her prime, I thought her voice the most beautiful sound I had ever heard. She was of course slated to record the _Walkure_ Fricka, continuing the role from the Decca _Rheingold,_ but illness and death prevented it. I wish that she had recorded _Das Lied von der Erde. _


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## amfortas

DarkAngel said:


> Say Cheese...........Bayreuth Lohengrin 2010


Strange as it undoubtedly was, at least the Neuenfels "Lab Rat" _Lohengrin_ was visually attractive--not always a consideration for Regie directors.


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## Scopitone

I appreciate the discussion on the Flagstad Decca box. I was thinking it had more Wagner than it apparently does. And I was thinking it was "Vintage" based on when recorded. (even if it was at the end of her life) 

But I see now it doesn't really have enough Wagner for this thread. Still, I am glad to have brought it up anyway. :tiphat:


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## cheftimmyr

50% off everything at Opera Depot, today only I believe...


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## cheftimmyr

At long last I was able to make it through the 1955 Keilberth Testament Ring Cycle. I had planned to listen thru weeks ago, but alas, life happened and delayed.

What a gem this cycle is! It comes at a dear price so I was expecting to be underwhelmed no matter what, partly because I've heard such good things about it and also the price tag. Happily, that is not the case. The sound is heavenly. That one fact alone puts it at the pinnacle of my ring cycles to go back and enjoy and might (dare I say it) be the definitive Ring Cycle I would point someone to for a first listen. Others may disagree, as I would expect, but that's where I'm at currently. To be sure, there are other Cycles I'm extremely fond of and dear to my heart but for an introduction to the world of Wagner's Ring, I can think of none better as of yet (and I still consider myself a Wagner rookie).

The cast is superb, which further adds to the quality. An all-star cast during the Golden Age of Bayreuth; doesn't get much better than that.

Surprisingly maybe to some, but for me Siegfried takes the top spot for most enjoyable parts of the opera cycle. This is the Siegfried people should listen to if they have found it unenjoyable. Keilberth's tempi is perfect to me here, never feeling like it's dragging or causing the listener to lose interest; even the Wanderer-Mime exchange also the Wotan-Erda encounter. Some other cycles the action kind of "stops" at those junctures, not so here. The orchestration is beautiful, accentuating a maybe forgotten point that the music and motifs in Siegfried are among the most beautiful and powerful of all The Ring. Windgassen plays the part admirably. In fact, to date, I don't think I've heard a better Sirgfried (still need to hear Melchior). The Bohm was my intro to Windy as Siegfried, this is 11 years prior and the voice is definitely fresher to my ears.

Die Walküre also doesn't fail to deliver. Hotter and Varnay are sublime as Wotan and Brunnhilde. I've found no one as of yet to eclipse Hotter in the role, his "Geh, Geh" to Hunding is chilling, as he sends the hunter to Fricka. Varnay still tops my personal preference for Brunnhilde. The tonal quality of her vocals as well as the emotion she brings to the role really shine through in this Cycle, throughout. The one slight disappointment was Vinay & Brouwenstijn as the Wälsung twins. Perhaps it not a fair fight since my last listening experience was the Melchior/Lawrence pairing from the Met. Even with a less than stellar pairing, the Spring Song score is sublime.

The Götterdammerung performance was a fitting close to this Cycle. Siegfrieds Rhine Journey was well played. I'm also an Uhde fan so his Gunther was a welcome listen. While there might be a few spots that some might say are "over-developed", with the Norns Prologue, Hagen-Alberich encounter, and everything from the middle of Act II onwards, it's riveting. Astrid's closing Immolation Scene was powerful and fervent.

I found Das Rheingold to be the weakest of the performances in the cycle and I attribute that to the conducting and orchestration. Where Klieberth excels with tempi in the rest of the Cycle, Rheingold felt a little too brisk for me. There were moments that I felt were rushed over and the complexities and subtleties of the score were missed; especially the Rhine Maidens and at the close of the opera. The cast delivers, it just fell a little flat to me. Not even close to being a deal breaker, but slightly surprising.

Thanks to everyone who relentlessly recommended this Cycle... A small piece of heaven, here on earth to enjoy!

(Now to add more Wagner Testament recordings to the library...)


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## DarkAngel

^^^^ Great read Chefty, I would not argue with anyone saying that it is their very favorite of all available complete Rings, best singers of new Bayreuth era in prime voice with best sound quality of any 1950s ring set.......priceless

I love that each CD sleeve has unique picture from that performance, nice touch. AS you know there are two more stereo performances from 2nd ring that year for a "complete" 1955 Bayreuth collection.....


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## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> ^^^^ Great read Chefty, I would not argue with anyone saying that it is their very favorite of all available complete Rings, best singers of new Bayreuth era in prime voice with best sound quality of any 1950s ring set.......priceless
> 
> I love that each CD sleeve has unique picture from that performance, nice touch. *AS you know there are two more stereo performances from 2nd ring that year for a "complete" 1955 Bayreuth collection.....*


Yes of course! I'm currently price hunting! More "ouch"! :lol:


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## Guest

Woodduck said:


> I thought her voice the most beautiful sound I had ever heard. She was of course slated to record the _Walkure_ Fricka, continuing the role from the Decca _Rheingold,_ but illness and death prevented it. I wish that she had recorded _Das Lied von der Erde. _


Das Lied von der Erde that would be something.:tiphat:


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## SiegendesLicht

Very interesting reviews of the Keilberth Ring Cycle, thanks! Made me want to add it to my collection too.


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## Barbebleu

Well that's me back from Bayreuth 1958 courtesy of my trusty time machine. This time it was the performance of Tristan on the 26 July. Windgassen and Nilsson on their second outing as the hero and heroine and Josef Greindl was making his debut as Marke. Grace Hoffman reprised her role as Brangane from last year too. Erik Saeden was a good Kurwenal who I think will improve in the role but he has not been engaged for next year.(In fact he never sang at Bayreuth again although he had a good career in other theatres right into the 80's. He died in 2009 at the age of 85).

Fritz Uhl as Melot and Josef Traxel as the Seemann were good if not brilliant. Sawallisch conducted and it all sounded pretty good but, dare I say it, dull. It never at any stage sounded inspired although if you heard a performance like it nowadays you would be ecstatic. Compared to what Windgassen and Nilsson were capable of in future years this was all a bit low key. Not a Tristan for the ages but a fair one that, if I saw a cheap version of, I would be happy to add it to my collection but greater versions were to come in the years ahead. 

Next up Rheingold on the 27 July 1958 with Hans Hotter as Wotan.


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## DarkAngel

The next Tristan for me waits in my Pristine XR buy basket for discount level to be reached, then buy buy buy.....


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## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> The next Tristan for me waits in my Pristine XR buy basket for discount level to be reached, then buy buy buy.....


Me too; I've reached the discount level but haven't mustered the courage to hit "buy"... Anyone listened to the Muck Parsifal from Pristine yet? (That's also in the basket).


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## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> The next Tristan for me waits in my Pristine XR buy basket for discount level to be reached, then buy buy buy.....


I downloaded this when Pristine released it a few weeks ago. Needless to say I haven't heard it yet!!


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## interestedin

Woodduck said:


> her lower register had acquired a deep and unique beauty, aged like a fine wine.


True. Like this excerpt from the immolation scene of her last Götterdämmerung in 1956 (not in an opera house of course) which can be found on that Decca set:






Pure gold. Still I would give a lot to hear her young, silver-like voice in modern sound. Hopefully they invent time travel soon.. That voice:


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## cheftimmyr

Barbebleu said:


> My time machine has just brought me back from Bayreuth, 23 July 1958 and Wieland Wagner's first production of Lohengrin. The pastel colours offset by the vivid costumes of the chorus (who were brilliant BTW) and cast and Lohengrin's golden splendour made this as visually arresting a performance as you are likely to witness.
> 
> Andre Cluytens conducted a vigorous and musically engaging performance with a good ear for the pace, particularly in the four-square set pieces which in the wrong hands can seem very plodding and too martial.
> 
> Leonie Rysanek was very well sung although for me she was a touch over-parted. I couldn't see her being easily swayed by anyone, let alone Ortrud. Astrid Varnay was a sensational Ortrud with endless power over the whole evening and Ernest Blanc was a very musical and intelligently sung Telramund, a good match for his machiavelian partner.The herald was sung by Eberhard Waechter, a singer making his debut at Bayreuth who sounds as if he has a promising Wagnerian career ahead of him. Kieth Engen was a solid Heinrich and what can I say about Sandor Konya! His opening entrance was a visual and aural delight and his beauty of tone made him a truly memorable Lohengrin. The only thing that I noticed was a slight loss of control and pitch by both principals towards the end of Act 3, but as they had both sung their hearts out this was understandable and forgivable. You will travel a long way to hear Wagner sung and played as well as this was tonight.
> 
> Back in the time machine and off to Bayreuth 27 July 1958 for Tristan und Isolde. More from your roving reporter anon!!
> 
> In case you're wondering my time machine is disguised as a Bavarian police booth circa 1958!!


I had this in the listening pile and decided to give it a shot. I agree with Barbie's assessment of Cluytens conducting;very engaging. Towards the end of Act 1 when Lohengrin and Telramund are preparing to fight (and all the principals are singing) Cluytens builds the intensity of the orchestra up beautifully, bringing the listener right into the action with the anticipation of the coming combat. A memorable moment of the performance. (I didn't care for the cut towards the end of Act 3 right before the swans reappearance... What would be the big deal with the extra 4 mins?!?!)

I had only heard Konya in Kubelik's Meistersinger thus far, so it was enlightening to hear him 9 years earlier. A very well sung Lohengrin. Not competing with Jess Thomas in my heart, but well sung and enjoyable. As was Blanc as Telramund and Engen as Heinrich.

I didn't care for Ms Rysanek's performance. I found her poorly cast for this role. In Act 1 everything from her opening entrance was a "10", with little sensitivity lent to the role; and some of her higher register notes come off "shrieky" to my ears. It was most noticeable in Act 1. An overall matronly aura which I have just not come to expect from hearing Grummer and Silja previously. I'm not at all disparaging Rysanek's skills as a gifted singer, more that maybe this wasn't the best casting for her particular vocal set.

Varnay saves the day as Ortrud... She owns that part. I've commented on her in other performances so I'll leave it at that.

The preludes, processionals, choruses, etc of this opera exude sheer beauty... Love it, and Cluytens delivered for me.


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## cheftimmyr

Onto the Knappy '57 Bayreuth Cycle (Walhall).

I chose this cycle specifically because I just went through the '55 Keilberth Testament Cycle and wanted a different personality with the baton. Through Das Rheingold, Knap displays a soft, midas touch with the score. Really pulling forth the subtleties and beauty of the music, never rushing, but also never bringing the action to a drag. I also love what Knap is consistently able to get out of the brass sections of the orchestra, not only in The Ring operas I've heard but specifically Parsifal as well; there's a grandness and regality that adds so much depth. Needless to say, I enjoyed his treatment of the score immensely. The sound is exceptional on this Walhall release and at a good deal $$$-wise on Amazon or import_cds.

The cast is very strong; Hotter and Niedlinger need no explanation. Hotter's Wotan crushes it with his "Abendlich strahlt..." right before the gods cross the bridge to Valhalla.

Milinkovic's Fricka I love and Grummer lent a pleasant innocence to Freia. Suthaus singing the part of Loge was well sung but I didn't get the sneaky-sleazy-conniving quality that I've heard from other Loge's.

The Rhinemaidens opening of the opera was gorgeous. I felt in the Keilberth '55 that the Rhinemaidens weren't allowed to develop enough and a bit skipped over; Knap does a really good job here of "resting" with the maidens and letting them do their thing.

I may have to start Die Walkure today as well.... not sure I can put it off another day!


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## DarkAngel

^^^^ Setting aside the 55 stereo Ring on Testament this 57 mono Ring for Walhall has best sound quality I have heard of any other 1950s ring.......all for very cheap price.



> I may have to start Die Walkure today as well.... not sure I can put it off another day!


Walsungs - Vinay & Nilsson, talk about a stacked cast

Chefty do you listen to wagner on main stereo or headphones?


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## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> ^^^^ Setting aside the 55 stereo Ring on Testament this 57 mono Ring for Walhall has best sound quality I have heard of any other 1950s ring.......all for very cheap price.
> 
> *Chefty do you listen to wagner on main stereo or headphone*s?


Almost exclusively through headphones; Grado 325e's.


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## cheftimmyr

Pristine Classical currently lists 3 Toscanini/Wagner offerings. 

1- Conducts Wagner Orchestral Music 1943 (NBC Studios, Nov 28th)
2- Final La Scala Concert, All Wagner (1952)
3- All Wagner Concert, Feb 1941, NBC Orchestra (w/Melchior and Traubel)

Anyone currently have these recordings and willing to give thoughts? Are they all "must-buys"? Thx in advance


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## cheftimmyr

Last night ends my journey of 2 complete ring cycles in 12 days... My mind is "wrung out"! :tiphat:

The sound quality of the 1957 mono Knappy (Walhall) was truly gorgeous... I'm not going to go in depth on the Walkure, Siegfried and Gotterdammerung for brevity's sake but I will add that if you don't have this cycle in your library, it's a must have. Varnay's closing Immolation Scene was well sung, powerful and an emotionally resonant closing under Knap's guidance. I don't have the '58 but will perhaps add that down the road...

Another Pristine/Wagner order is in the near future, meanwhile Kubelik Parsifal and Pristine Tristan (Furty) are next in line...


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## kineno

I have no idea if the sound quality is comparable to what we get on Walhall, but:http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/artist_ワーグナ...Festspiele-collection-Ring-Recordings_7235654.


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## Barbebleu

cheftimmyr said:


> View attachment 87410
> 
> 
> Last night ends my journey of 2 complete ring cycles in 12 days... My mind is "wrung out"! :tiphat:
> 
> The sound quality of the 1957 mono Knappy (Walhall) was truly gorgeous... I'm not going to go in depth on the Walkure, Siegfried and Gotterdammerung for brevity's sake but I will add that if you don't have this cycle in your library, it's a must have. Varnay's closing Immolation Scene was well sung, powerful and an emotionally resonant closing under Knap's guidance. I don't have the '58 but will perhaps add that down the road...
> 
> Another Pristine/Wagner order is in the near future, meanwhile Kubelik Parsifal and Pristine Tristan (Furty) are next in line...


The '58 Ring is where I'm headed next in the time machine. I shall report back.


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## DarkAngel

cheftimmyr said:


> Another Pristine/Wagner order is in the near future, meanwhile Kubelik Parsifal and* Pristine Tristan (Furty*) are next in line...


Chefty thought you might like some side opera trivia as you continue the glorious wagner opera quest, the Flagstad 52 Tristan includes famous MET mezzo *Blanche Thebom* as the trusted hand maiden Brangane........have you ever seen photos of her with her actual hair let down, all the way to the ground it is OMG............


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## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> Chefty thought you might like some side opera trivia as you continue the glorious wagner opera quest, the Flagstad 52 Tristan includes famous MET mezzo *Blanche Thebom* as the trusted hand maiden Brangane........have you ever seen photos of her with her actual hair let down, all the way to the ground it is OMG............


Wow and.... wow!!! I'm thru Act 1 and will likely finish tomorrow... The sound quality is mesmerizing; I have the EMI recording but the clarity on the Pristine rendering takes it to another level.

I also just noticed that the Seaman is none other than Mr Schock, whose Walther (Kempe, Meistersinger), blew my socks off!


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## cheftimmyr

Ah, the Pristine "Tristan und Isolde" conducted by Furtwangler....

As stated in a previous post, I have this recording on an EMI release so when I purchased the same recording from Pristine I was thinking "It can't be that different".... WRONG! The enhancement in clarity is a game changer for me, allowing myself to be further lost in Wagner's world. I had trouble before hearing the vocals when sometimes the orchestra would wash them out; not so here. (It really added to the enjoyment, not getting lost trying to catch up if I missed a line or two). This recording also really brought to the forefront, for me, how well the supporting cast delivered in this performance.

The closing of the duet in Act II was gripping; I really like Suthaus in this recording, and his timbre is more appealing to me for Tristan than say, Windgassen. (again having more clarity in the recording made a huge difference for me). 
The vorspiel to Act III was beautifully foreboding in a way that never connected with me before; maybe it was the recording, or maybe it was another "Wagner moment" for me... no matter, very impacting. I love the care in which Flagstad delivers the Leibestod; it seems every word and phrase was sung with specific intent, never just "ran through"...

Having listened to a few Tristans now, I really appreciate the different facets coming through depending on who has the baton:
Furtwangler: Voluptuous and sexy 
Bohm: Electric
HvK ('52): Intense
Bodanzky ('37): Hearing Melchior and Flagstad was special, but I had trouble getting past the age of the recording to ever "let myself get lost" in the opera.

So much has been written about this performance and Furtwangler that I won't go on... but this is magic for me!


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## Woodduck

cheftimmyr said:


> View attachment 87532
> 
> 
> Ah, the Pristine "Tristan und Isolde" conducted by Furtwangler....
> 
> As stated in a previous post, I have this recording on an EMI release so when I purchased the same recording from Pristine I was thinking "It can't be that different".... WRONG! The enhancement in clarity is a game changer for me, allowing myself to be further lost in Wagner's world. I had trouble before hearing the vocals when sometimes the orchestra would wash them out; not so here. (It really added to the enjoyment, not getting lost trying to catch up if I missed a line or two). This recording also really brought to the forefront, for me, how well the supporting cast delivered in this performance.
> 
> The closing of the duet in Act II was gripping; I really like Suthaus in this recording, and his timbre is more appealing to me for Tristan than say, Windgassen. (again having more clarity in the recording made a huge difference for me).
> The vorspiel to Act III was beautifully foreboding in a way that never connected with me before; maybe it was the recording, or maybe it was another "Wagner moment" for me... no matter, very impacting. I love the care in which Flagstad delivers the Leibestod; it seems every word and phrase was sung with specific intent, never just "ran through"...
> 
> Having listened to a few Tristans now, I really appreciate the different facets coming through depending on who has the baton:
> Furtwangler: Voluptuous and sexy
> Bohm: Electric
> HvK ('52): Intense
> Bodanzky ('37): Hearing Melchior and Flagstad was special, but I had trouble getting past the age of the recording to ever "let myself get lost" in the opera.
> 
> So much has been written about this performance and Furtwangler that I won't go on... but this is magic for me!


Being accustomed to old recordings, and not liberal with the purse, I've generally resisted "updating" my historic recordings to their latest sonic incarnations. But this classic undoubtedly deserves it. I may just have to break precedent.

There are things in this performance that have not been equaled in any other. I'm thinking of the way Furtwangler finds the melodic intensity of separate instrumental lines, yet weaves them together with breathtaking balance and beauty - things such as the atmospheric prelude to act two, with its weaving of gentle breezes and flickering fireflies; the languorous orchestral passage as Tristan and Isolde settle onto the flowery bank before "O sink hernieder"; the accompaniment to Brangaene's warning, so incredibly sensuous yet profoundly tragic that all other conductors' efforts seem shallow; the whole night of love in which time seems stilled in an eternity of bliss...

Yeah. Guess I have to get the Pristine. What else am I gonna spend my money on?


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## DarkAngel

^^^ Yes Andrew Rose again shows his mastery of sonic restorations, the 52 EMI Tristan was a studio recording and the Pristine XR remaster is easily superior in every respect, a great addition Chefty! With all the extra fine detail revealed you wonder how it is possible Flagstad was giving one of her final complete wagner opera recordings so commanding and iconic is her portrayal of Isolde, helps to have the finest conductor of wagner of that time in Furtwangler............

Isolde offers a toast to Chefty (wait on 2nd thought better pass on that ha ha)


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## Barbebleu

Woodduck said:


> Being accustomed to old recordings, and not liberal with the purse, I've generally resisted "updating" my historic recordings to their latest sonic incarnations. But this classic undoubtedly deserves it. I may just have to break precedent.
> 
> There are things in this performance that have not been equaled in any other. I'm thinking of the way Furtwangler finds the melodic intensity of separate instrumental lines, yet weaves them together with breathtaking balance and beauty - things such as the atmospheric prelude to act two, with its weaving of gentle breezes and flickering fireflies; the languorous orchestral passage as Tristan and Isolde settle onto the flowery bank before "O sink hernieder"; the accompaniment to Brangaene's warning, so incredibly sensuous yet profoundly tragic that all other conductors' efforts seem shallow; the whole night of love in which time seems stilled in an eternity of bliss...
> 
> Yeah. Guess I have to get the Pristine. What else am I gonna spend my money on?


Yep. Chef's review kind of swung that for me too. This will be version #3!! Need to sneak this past the good lady though!


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## cheftimmyr

Barbie & Duck, I look forward to hearing your thoughts when you listen to the Pristine Tristan!


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## DarkAngel

Woodduck said:


> Being accustomed to old recordings, and not liberal with the purse, I've generally resisted "updating" my historic recordings to their latest sonic incarnations. But this classic undoubtedly deserves it. I may just have to break precedent.
> 
> There are things in this performance that have not been equaled in any other. I'm thinking of the way Furtwangler finds the melodic intensity of separate instrumental lines, yet weaves them together with breathtaking balance and beauty - *things such as the atmospheric prelude to act two, with its weaving of gentle breezes and flickering fireflies; the languorous orchestral passage as Tristan and Isolde settle onto the flowery bank before "O sink hernieder"; the accompaniment to Brangaene's warning, so incredibly sensuous yet profoundly tragic that all other conductors' efforts seem shallow; the whole night of love in which time seems stilled in an eternity of bliss...
> *
> Yeah. Guess I have to get the Pristine. What else am I gonna spend my money on?


Duck's poetic description the romantic night scence of Tristan und Isolde sparked a moment of inspiration for me, the "flowing" music and emotions, the aromatic gentle night breeze......all the sudden I thought of Mahler 7th which is also known as "song of the night" (I do love Mahler)



I am wondering if this was inspired by wagner's "Tristan" Mahler also was very skilled at unusual tonal constructions and flowing organic music, often with violent disruptions or "emotional storms" that hinted at darker themes or danger just below the surface.

The 2nd slow movement #4 especially could be a homage to the love scence Duck describes, the Klimt image above hints at this love theme, an unleashing of emotion at night.......wiki does not support my theory instead saying similarities to wagner's Meistersinger and Mahler 7th musically

Also I have often thought the wagner liebestod sung by Isolde (a cosmic communion with Tristan) concluding Tristan and final of Mahler 2nd share a similar powerful vision of universal cosmic soul or force.......


----------



## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> Duck's poetic description the romantic night scence of Tristan und Isolde sparked a moment of inspiration for me, the "flowing" music and emotions, the aromatic gentle night breeze......all the sudden I thought of Mahler 7th which is also known as "song of the night" (I do love Mahler)
> 
> 
> 
> I am wondering if this was inspired by wagner's "Tristan" Mahler also was very skilled at unusual tonal constructions and flowing organic music, often with violent disruptions or "emotional storms" that hinted at darker themes or danger just below the surface.
> 
> The 2nd slow movement #4 especially could be a homage to the love scence Duck describes, the Klimt image above hints at this love theme, an unleashing of emotion at night.......wiki does not support my theory instead saying similarities to wagner's Meistersinger and Mahler 7th musically
> 
> Also I have often thought the wagner liebestod sung by Isolde (a cosmic communion with Tristan) concluding Tristan and final of Mahler 2nd share a similar powerful vision of universal cosmic soul or force.......


I'll have to listen to Mahler's7th with this in mind.

The influence of _Tristan_ on artists of all sorts is incalculable. There's an excellent book called "The First Hundred Years of Wagner's Tristan" by Elliott Zuckerman which I used to own and recommend highly. Unfortunately it's now rather expensive.


----------



## gardibolt

cheftimmyr said:


> Me too; I've reached the discount level but haven't mustered the courage to hit "buy"... Anyone listened to the Muck Parsifal from Pristine yet? (That's also in the basket).


The sound quality of the Muck Parsifal is not the best, but then again it's a 1920s recording so you really can't expect much. It's also only fragments rather than a full recording. The Muck recording is absolutely essential though as apparently it's the only extant recording of the Parsifal bells----it's really a unique and powerful sound that I've not heard duplicated anywhere else. The bells were melted down in WWII, as I recollect.


----------



## Barbebleu

I am listening to Act 1 of the Pristine remastering of Furtwangler's 1953 Tristan. It certainly sounds a bit more immediate than either my original vinyl or my later CDs. Perhaps I am just so used to listening to elderly recordings and hearing past the lack of aural clarity but I have to admit that I can't hear a quantum leap in quality between my CDs and this version. Perhaps a little more depth in the bass. One reason I am glad to have it though is the the pitch corrections made by Andrew Rose. Not there yet but I shall contrast and compare with my other versions. Incidentally the downloads come with complete libretto and full orchestral score in PDF for those without one or the other.

I am also glad to be reminded how good Suthaus is in this recording. A very fine Tristan indeed. Flagstad is just a joy and everyone else turns in exemplary performances including the young Fischer-Dieskau as Kurwenal. At the very least it's given me a chance to listen to this fine interpretation once again.

After this I must go and listen to Mahler Seven. Thanks for that DA! 

As if I didn't have enough to listen to what with the other Pristine Tristan from New York and the Gould Goldberg from Canadian Radio in 1954. Where will it all end, more importantly, when will it all end.


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## howlingfantods

gardibolt said:


> The sound quality of the Muck Parsifal is not the best, but then again it's a 1920s recording so you really can't expect much. It's also only fragments rather than a full recording. The Muck recording is absolutely essential though as apparently it's the only extant recording of the Parsifal bells----it's really a unique and powerful sound that I've not heard duplicated anywhere else. The bells were melted down in WWII, as I recollect.


But then again, you can always just listen to the Muck fragments on Youtube or wherever. I'm not sure I consider these fragments worth getting a recording of since they are valuable references but hardly something I feel like spinning that often. The bells are interesting though, not least because they sound a good quartertone flat--suggests that orchestras tuned lower back in Wagner's day.

I filled out a shopping bag o 20% off music at Pristine myself recently, mostly with Furtwangler's Beethoven and Brahms and Horenstein's Bruckner and Mahler. It is not hard at all to find Pristine recordings I'll put into my regular rotation much more than Muck's Parsifal.


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## Barbebleu

Half way through Act 2 of the Pristine Tristan remaster. Yes, definitely a cut above my other versions. My admiration for Suthaus just increases by leaps and bounds. So, so good. When I first bought this donkey's years ago I thought it was great. Now it's easily in my top three.

Furtwangler and Thebom absolutely nail Brangane's Watch. Just magical and ethereal and an absolute joy to listen to.


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## interestedin

Easily in your top three?

That's a shame if you mean your top three Furtwängler-Tristan-52 remasterings!

But if you are talking about your top three desert island discs, that's great!


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## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> Half way through Act 2 of the Pristine Tristan remaster. Yes, definitely a cut above my other versions. My admiration for Suthaus just increases by leaps and bounds. So, so good. When I first bought this donkey's years ago I thought it was great. Now it's easily in my top three.
> 
> Furtwangler and Thebom absolutely nail Brangane's Watch. Just magical and ethereal and an absolute joy to listen to.


The things that make Pristine XR so good is that Rose does all the usual historical remaster clean up with pitch, flutter, rumble, surface noise removal etc but he goes much farther his unique process expands the dynamic range using known audiophile references as guides, adds a subtle ambient stereo effect that adds body sense of space and several other techniques as needed.....the net effect is much improved full range balance and greatly improved fine detail retrieval, the bass and lower mids are just amazing sometimes greatly enhancing male voices and bass instruments that were completely lost before in an opaque low end murk

The 52 Tristan is obvious improvement to me over a pretty good EMI studio recording, but even more amazing is a poor original recording like 50 Furtwangler Scala Ring........nothing even comes close to the sonic miracle achieved with Pristine XR version!

DA heads over to opera library to pull out Pristine XR 52 Tristan CD set for play stack........


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## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> The things that make Pristine XR so good is that Rose does all the usual historical remaster clean up with pitch, flutter, rumble, surface noise removal etc but he goes much farther his unique process expands the dynamic range using known audiophile references as guides, adds a subtle ambient stereo effect that adds body sense of space and several other techniques as needed.....the net effect is much improved balance and fine detail retrieval, the bass and lower mids are just amazing sometimes greatly enhancing male voices and bass instruments that were completely lost before in an opaque low end murk
> 
> The 52 Tristan is pretty obvious improvement to me over a pretty good EMI studio recording, but even more amazing is a poor original recording like 50 Furtwangler Scala Ring........nothing even comes close to the sonic miracle achieved with Pristine XR version!


Agreed and agreed! The clarity and detail in the lower range frequencies is revelatory to hear... The '50 La Scala Ring you mentioned is (without gushing) borderline miraculous... A real treasure


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## Barbebleu

interestedin said:


> Easily in your top three?
> 
> That's a shame if you mean your top three Furtwängler-Tristan-52 remasterings!
> 
> But if you are talking about your top three desert island discs, that's great!


I was meaning my top three Tristans. This, the Karajan with Vickers and Dernesch and the '66 Bohm with Nilsson and Windgassen. I see in my first post I referred to the year as being '53, I, of course, meant '52.


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## Barbebleu

That was a trip listening to the Pristine Furtwangler Tristan. Immense concentration and intensity from Suthaus in Act 3, a fabulous liebestod and some inspired playing by the Philharmonia. I'm Tristaned out now having listened to three in the past two weeks. Now for Mahler!


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## Pugg

For those who are interested and not knowing:

http://www.norpete.com/


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## cheftimmyr

I have begun the 1953 Krauss Ring Cycle (Pristine Release). I've recently gone from the 1955 Keilberth (Testament) to the 1957 Knap (Walhall) and now to the Krauss. While many of the same artists reappear in these Cycles from the Bayreuth '50's, the variation in style from the conductor has been really enjoyable and educational for me. My only other Krauss experience has been his Parsifal from the same year (also Pristine), which I enjoyed very much aside from not being the biggest Vinay fan.

This Rheingold has a dynamic feel to it. Almost as if the listener is being propelled through the watery depths of Wagner's wonderland; a definite difference from the lush, broad grandness that Knap delivers in the '57 (Walhall). The Rhinemaidens shine with the ebbs and flows of the orchestra really supporting them well and never overshadowing. The sound has been very nicely restored/remastered by Mr Rose, which I would expect nothing less of at this point. (Some minor stage noise, but that's just being nit-picking).

I'm to the point where I take Gustav Niedlinger's "Alberich" for granted. He owns the part in every recording I've heard with him as the evil Nibelung. I haven't mentioned him in the last few Ring cycles I've listened to, probably because he is so consistent and delivers the part so well its just "expected" on my part. Specifically, in Scene 4 where Alberich summons the gold to be brought, the way in which Niedlinger escalates with the orchestra is memorable. In fact, the whole interaction with Alberich and Wotan from Scenes 3 thru 4 is engrossing.

Interesting cast note on this recording is having Herman Uhde as Donner, which I don't believe I had come across as of yet; such great command and vocal presence even in a smaller role; the best summoning of the thunder and lightning, nearing the end of Scene 4, that I've heard to date by a wide margin. He also sings the part on the '53 Keilberth which is next on my list (followed by the Kempe '60, where he sings Wotan). Weber and Greindl make my favorite pair of Giants thus far.

Krauss brings the orchestral intensity up at the close of the opera, which I really like... Maybe it's the "Romantic" in me... :lol:


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## DarkAngel

vs 

Chefty this brings back memories, I am pretty sure this was my first purchase from Pristine XR a few years ago. I had a couple CD versions of the 53 Krauss Ring including the newest Orfeo thought by all to be the very best sound.......the Pristine XR just crushes the all other versions for sound quality, I sold the Orefeo within a week to offset the cost of complete Pristine XR set! 

Yes the icons of 50s Bayreuth give us thrilling legendary performances, Hotter and Varnay at the very top of their game vocally and dramatically unforgettable performances. The reason we have to own all these is the other roles get new faces here and there. The walsungs here are Vinay and Resnik, Windgassen's 1st season as Siegried sounding very fresh and alive, it is a shame we only have one Ring for Krauss and a great Parsifal that same year (also on Pristine XR) he gives a commanding and intelligent presentation of this great work...........


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## Woodduck

Clemens Krauss reminds me of Bob Newhart.


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## DarkAngel

Woodduck said:


> Clemens Krauss reminds me of Bob Newhart.


I notice a trend with wagner and bowties...........








Knap (suspenders & bowtie)










Hans von Bulow


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## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> I notice a trend with wagner and bowties...........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Knap (suspenders & bowtie)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hans von Bulow


You don't want to get your baton caught in a necktie.

I think Kna (and probably others) worked tieless and jacketless at Bayreuth, thanks to the hidden orchestra and the lack of air conditioning.


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## cheftimmyr

I have just finished the '53 Krauss "Die Walküre"; sadly I was delayed in listening time between Rheingold and the second installment. 

In thinking of this recording after listening, the word that came to mind was "chemistry". This is by no means a flawless performance, vocally nor orchestrally, but the overall chemistry between the principals throughout is riveting. I've spoken before of my issues with Vinay, but paired with Resnik they do an admirable job portraying the Volsung's. When Vinay opened Act 1 seeking shelter from the storm, he does actually sound exhausted which isn't the case at all in other performances I've heard. A small detail, but I appreciated that. His first "Walse" did wobble slightly, but again, overall a good portrayal with Resnik. 

The chemistry between Hotter and Varnay was gripping. Even though I've heard them paired a few times now, this performance was unique in its own way. Hotter seems to interpret and evolve his Wotans as I've listened to different years and performances. I recall some other members mentioning it and I can definitely understand more of that now. Varnay is truly impassioned, as she pleads for her father to destroy her, leading into a beautiful "Leb Wohl" from Hotter. The last 30 mins orchestrally of this opera is breathtaking and tugs on the emotional strings of yearning, passion, sorrow and hope... all at once, somehow, yet each emotion is distinctly present. 

Truly Wagner magic, in my opinion. Even with little backstory, I believe anyone would be hard pressed to be unaffected by the closing scene of this opera. 

Siegfried up next... I'm loving this Krauss Cycle! (Thanks to Pristine, I can't imagine listening to this without the remaster!)


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## DarkAngel

cheftimmyr said:


> I have just finished the '53 Krauss "Die Walküre"; sadly I was delayed in listening time between Rheingold and the second installment.
> 
> In thinking of this recording after listening, the word that came to mind was "chemistry". This is by no means a flawless performance, vocally nor orchestrally, but the overall chemistry between the principals throughout is riveting. I've spoken before of my issues with Vinay, but paired with Resnik they do an admirable job portraying the Volsung's. When Vinay opened Act 1 seeking shelter from the storm, he does actually sound exhausted which isn't the case at all in other performances I've heard. A small detail, but I appreciated that. His first "Walse" did wobble slightly, but again, overall a good portrayal with Resnik.
> 
> The chemistry between Hotter and Varnay was gripping. Even though *I've heard them paired a few times now, this performance was unique in its own way. Hotter seems to interpret and evolve his Wotans as I've listened to different years and performances. I recall some other members mentioning it and I can definitely understand more of that now*. Varnay is truly impassioned, as she pleads for her father to destroy her, leading into a beautiful "Leb Wohl" from Hotter. The last 30 mins orchestrally of this opera is breathtaking and tugs on the emotional strings of yearning, passion, sorrow and hope... all at once, somehow, yet each emotion is distinctly present.
> 
> Truly Wagner magic, in my opinion. Even with little backstory, I believe anyone would be hard pressed to be unaffected by the closing scene of this opera.
> 
> Siegfried up next... I'm loving this Krauss Cycle! (Thanks to Pristine, I can't imagine listening to this without the remaster!)


I mentioned that aspect many moons ago here that each year at Bayreuth Hotter was such a great artist he was constantly trying new emotional angles and vocal refinements in his wotan/wanderer performances, yet another reason that you need many Rings from 1950s as they are all slightly different......and even the same singers can give you new approaches every year as they try new aspects of character development and refined singing skill

Yes act III Hotter and Varnay at their peaks give just such impassioned vivid emotional rendering of the conflicted father who must punish a loving daughter guilty only of trying to carry out her father's true wishes, it almost isn't even singing you can so clearly imagine the scence in your mind and really feel what they are going through, no one can touch this today!........the fire music summons Loge the deed is done


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## gardibolt

I knew there had to be a reason I was buying all these 1950s Bayreuth Rings....


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## howlingfantods

Just a heads up for bargain shoppers that there's a Janowitz and Theo Adam sale on at Opera Depot. One thing that the former means is that you get a chance to get the highly regarded (and my personal favorite) Kubelik Meistersinger for much cheaper than the Arts Archive version--like $11 for the cd or $3 for the download versus the 50 bucks I paid for the AA cd. No idea if the sound is equally good but the sample sounds fine to me.

I picked up another Janowitz Meistersinger myself--the Salzburg Karajan with Ridderbusch and Kollo. I tend to prefer Fluffy in live recordings than in the studio.


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## Barbebleu

howlingfantods said:


> Just a heads up for bargain shoppers that there's a Janowitz and Theo Adam sale on at Opera Depot. One thing that the former means is that you get a chance to get the highly regarded (and my personal favorite) Kubelik Meistersinger for much cheaper than the Arts Archive version--like $11 for the cd or $3 for the download versus the 50 bucks I paid for the AA cd. No idea if the sound is equally good but the sample sounds fine to me.
> 
> I picked up another Janowitz Meistersinger myself--the Salzburg Karajan with Ridderbusch and Kollo. I tend to prefer Fluffy in live recordings than in the studio.


This version of the Kubelik is actually pretty good. I've nothing to compare it with but it is perfectly acceptable to my ears. Fantastic deal if you don't already have it as is the Salzburg Meistersinger.


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## cheftimmyr

Siegfried: 1953, Krauss

The first thing I noticed in this recording was Paul Kuën's interpretation of Mime. It seemed a more subtle, and not quite as sniveling and conniving, as a lot of other performances I've heard of this part. The effect (for me) was a Mime more sympathetic and apt to convince Siegfried to fall into his selfish schemes.

Windgassen is in much fresher voice than his 66/67 Ring Cycle with Bohm, that's for sure! An overall well sung Siegfried; a few times I got a little nasal quality in his timbre (Acts 1 & 2), and his "Notung! Notung!..." seemed to have a few places where he wasn't quite in sync with Krauss and the orchestra. Having said that, his parental lament in the Forest Murmur scene was delightful, as well as the close of Act II. I was very appreciative that the Woodbird vocals were clear and articulate (not washed out by the orchestra and/or distant); not sure if this was due more to Rose or the actual recording source.

The Vorspiel into Act 3 is played beautifully. Full of energy and momentum reaching it's apex as Wotan beckons Erda forth. Hotter and Windgassen in Scene II (as The Wanderer and Siegfried encounter) might be my favorite rendition thus far into my Ring experience. The tension between the two is palpable and both artists have such command of their roles as they go mano e mano.

In fact, I find this Act 3 to be near flawless as Windgassen and Varnay sing their hearts out. The emotion and chemistry they have is tachycardia-inducing. As much credit goes to Krauss and the pit. I'm trying not get carried away, maybe it's just because this is the most recent Siegfried Act 3 I've heard so that's why I'm smitten, but I'm hard pressed to think of a better pairing than Windy-Varnay, and Krauss really is terrific. (Add Hotter's Wotan, etc...). This one holds a special place and might be the "Siegfried" I reach for. (Interesting to note the Bayreuth attendees can't even hold their applause before the orchestra has finished playing, a good 30 seconds left!)

The balance between vocals and orchestra, for this entire '53 Krauss Pristine Cycle, has been a joy to listen to. I'm sure Gotterdammerung will continue the trend.


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## DarkAngel

> In fact, I find this Act 3 to be near flawless as Windgassen and Varnay sing their hearts out. The emotion and chemistry they have is tachycardia-inducing. As much credit goes to Krauss and the pit. I'm trying not get carried away, maybe it's just because this is the most recent Siegfried Act 3 I've heard so that's why I'm smitten, but I'm hard pressed to think of a better pairing than Windy-Varnay, and Krauss really is terrific. (Add Hotter's Wotan, etc...). This one holds a special place and might be the "Siegfried" I reach for. (Interesting to note the Bayreuth attendees can't even hold their applause before the orchestra has finished playing, a good 30 seconds left!)


Windgassen's great debut season at Bayreuth does indeed let us hear a different Siegfried than the later Bohm Ring, a beautiful golden lyric voice that was fresh and supple responsive to every dramatic scence with passion and vivid emotional contrast, little wonder he became an enduring icon of the Bayreuth stage..............


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## Barbebleu

Methinks I might need to get the old time machine to propel me back to Bayreuth 1953. I've listened to the Keilberth from that year but just hadn't got around to the Krauss. Chef's review has prompted me to give this a whirl. Looks like 1958 will be on hold 'til I go on holiday at the beginning of September.


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## DarkAngel

^^^^ You will want the Pristine XR 53 Krauss, the other available versions are noticeably weaker sound quality.....

That newly released 53 Keilberth Ring has far better sound in its standard CD commercial boxset compared to standard 53 Krauss Ring boxset, not sure why.......


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## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> ^^^^ You will want the Pristine XR 53 Krauss, the other available versions are noticeably weaker sound quality.....
> 
> That newly released 53 Keilberth Ring has far better sound in its standard CD commercial boxset compared to standard 53 Krauss Ring boxset, not sure why.......


Well, DA, if you care to send me the doh-re-mi I'll get the Pristine Krauss, otherwise I'll just need to stick with the one I've got. Incidentally it sounds perfectly acceptable to these old ears! I'll just crank up the volume and away we go. The Pristine Furtwangler Tristan was good but not a quantum leap sonically so I'm going to pass on the upgrades for the moment. Thank you for thinking of me though.


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## DarkAngel

^^^^ Chefty will loan you some money, he gets high volume discount now from Pristine XR :lol:


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## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> ^^^^ Chefty will loan you some money, he gets high volume discount now from Pristine XR :lol:


I have a birthday coming up in about three weeks so I might just have a word with my wife. She is always asking me what I would like other than the ubiquitous malt whisky and Amazon vouchers. :lol:


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## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> ^^^^ Chefty will loan you some money, he gets high volume discount now from Pristine XR :lol:


I'm down! Count on me


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## Azol

I read all the praise for the remastered Krauss 53 Ring on Pristine, so I am about to break my wallet (once more) and get it.

I see that they now offer digital downloads for FLAC mono and FLAC ambient stereo.
I guess they have remastered the original mono recording (FLAC mono option is remastered audio, correct?) then added their Pristine XR magic to make a FLAC ambient stereo version.

Which of the two do you recommend? Is there any reason not to prefer more "direct" mono option?

(taken from another Wagner thread, as it seems to be more appropriate place to ask such a question)


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## cheftimmyr

Azol said:


> I read all the praise for the remastered Krauss 53 Ring on Pristine, so I am about to break my wallet (once more) and get it.
> 
> I see that they now offer digital downloads for FLAC mono and FLAC ambient stereo.
> I guess they have remastered the original mono recording (FLAC mono option is remastered audio, correct?) then added their Pristine XR magic to make a FLAC ambient stereo version.
> 
> Which of the two do you recommend? Is there any reason not to prefer more "direct" mono option?
> 
> (taken from another Wagner thread, as it seems to be more appropriate place to ask such a question)


I defer to DA on all things Pristine and Ambient Stereo, however all of my Pristine orders I have opted for Ambient Stereo when available. There's a great informational on their website explaining the Ambient Stereo and process. Worth checking out for sure.


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## DarkAngel

cheftimmyr said:


> I defer to DA on all things Pristine and Ambient Stereo, however all of my Pristine orders I have opted for Ambient Stereo when available. There's a great informational on their website explaining the Ambient Stereo and process. Worth checking out for sure.


*I always get ambient stereo*, even listening very carefully on high end gear I can hear no negatives, it is a subtle effect that adds body and a sense of realism to a recording......not re-channeled stereo that has different right and left sound track

Rose himself recommends the ambient stereo versions, same price either way, some people just cannot accept the concept so he offers music both ways.....


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## gardibolt

Pristine has a 10% off all downloads (not CDs since they're on vacation) until end of August, I believe. Time to stock up!


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## cheftimmyr

Woodduck said:


> I'll have to listen to Mahler's7th with this in mind.
> 
> The influence of _Tristan_ on artists of all sorts is incalculable. There's an excellent book called "*The First Hundred Years of Wagner's Tristan*" by Elliott Zuckerman which I used to own and recommend highly. Unfortunately it's now rather expensive.


Duck, I found a great deal on a used copy of this book, after much searching. A great read thus far, thanks for the rec!


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## revdrdave

I know this is not exactly an historical recording but Opera Depot has a Ring cycle (well, three-fourths of one...there doesn't appear to be a Rhinegold) conducted by Sawallisch in Munich in 1977. Anyone know anything about these performances?


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## Woodduck

revdrdave said:


> View attachment 88246
> 
> 
> I know this is not exactly an historical recording but Opera Depot has a Ring cycle (well, three-fourths of one...there doesn't appear to be a Rhinegold) conducted by Sawallisch in Munich in 1977. Anyone know anything about these performances?


I've never heard them, but Gwyneth Jones and Theo Adam don't make my mouth water.


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## Azol

I hope someone would be able to confirm this to me: is early Walhall edition of Tristan und Isolde (Karajan 1952, WLCD 0001) offers same improved sound as much later "blue edition" of Membran? Is the only difference the whole of Act I fits on one CD in Membran box?


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## DarkAngel

Azol said:


> I hope someone would be able to confirm this to me: is early Walhall edition of Tristan und Isolde (Karajan 1952, WLCD 0001) offers same improved sound as much later "blue edition" of Membran? Is the only difference the whole of Act I fits on one CD in Membran box?
> 
> View attachment 88412
> View attachment 88413


I used to have the "blue" version but in reality the last track from Act 1 is on CD 2 (same as Walhall version)......I remember Tully was not happy when he also discovered this ha ha

Sound is great for both about equal, much better than older opera d oro release, I like this Tristan so much I recently got the Orfeo version with nicer booklet


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

Woodduck said:


> Clemens Krauss reminds me of Bob Newhart.


Or Graham Chapman (minus pipe)


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## DarkAngel

Pristine XR just released another Wagner performance 60 MET Dutchman, previously available on Walhall and using the same London/Rysanek duo from the 59 Bayreuth Dutchman on Myto which is one of the very best ever......buy buy buy

From Pristine website:



> There were six performances of Wagner's first mature opera at the Met between January and March 1960, and the fourth of these was broadcast live on radio by NBC - it is this broadcast performance which can be heard here in fine sound quality culled from two excellent source copies and XR remastered by Andrew Rose for Pristine.


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## gardibolt

Definitely.

15
15
15
15
15 characters


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## DarkAngel

This went into buy basket also at Pristine XR, 41 Wagner Radio broadcast from Carnegie Hall, Melchior and Traubel with extensive Gotterdammerung scences........

*Part 1
*Introduction, announcer: Ben Grauer (2:09)
*Lohengrin* - Prelude to Act 1 (9:32)
*Tannhäuser* - Act 2, "Dich, teure halle" (5:41)
*Die Walküre* - Act 1, Scene 3 (27:46)
Back anno, part 1 (0:50)
Intermission talk: Samuel Chotzinoff on Wagner (9:17)

*Part 2*
Introduction to part 2 (6:02)
*Tristan und Isolde* - Prelude to Act 1 (12:24)
*Götterdämmerung* - Dawn Duet and Siegfried's Rhine Journey (20:38)
*Götterdämmerung* - Siegfried's Death and Funeral March (13:14)
*Götterdämmerung* - Brünnhilde's Immolation (20:21)
Back anno, part 2; programme close (1:50)


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## cheftimmyr

Despite some life-interruptions I was able to finish the Krauss '53 Ring Cycle from Pristine. This goes in my top 3 and I would never want to be separated from it! I am through Rheingold and starting Walkure from 1960 Kempe (Myto), currently. 

DA, thanks for letting us know about the Pristine Hollander release, about that time to pull the trigger on another order!


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## gardibolt

DarkAngel said:


> This went into buy basket also at Pristine XR, 41 Wagner Radio broadcast from Carnegie Hall, Melchior and Traubel with extensive Gotterdammerung scences........
> 
> *Part 1
> *Introduction, announcer: Ben Grauer (2:09)
> *Lohengrin* - Prelude to Act 1 (9:32)
> *Tannhäuser* - Act 2, "Dich, teure halle" (5:41)
> *Die Walküre* - Act 1, Scene 3 (27:46)
> Back anno, part 1 (0:50)
> Intermission talk: Samuel Chotzinoff on Wagner (9:17)
> 
> *Part 2*
> Introduction to part 2 (6:02)
> *Tristan und Isolde* - Prelude to Act 1 (12:24)
> *Götterdämmerung* - Dawn Duet and Siegfried's Rhine Journey (20:38)
> *Götterdämmerung* - Siegfried's Death and Funeral March (13:14)
> *Götterdämmerung* - Brünnhilde's Immolation (20:21)
> Back anno, part 2; programme close (1:50)


You won't be disappointed. Terrific sound quality and Traubel and Melchior to boot? Yes, please.

The 1960 Flying Dutchman with Leonie Rysanek as Senta from Pristine is a good one too. Sound quality is excellent as well, at least for the first act. Haven't finished it yet.


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## DarkAngel

Another opera depot sale, but look what I found a rare Flagstad 37 Dutchman, short sound sample is very good for its age, I have not heard Flagstad as Senta previously......not complete opera just extended segments

Duck was talking about Ludwig Weber in another thread, another chance to hear him (as daland) close to prime voice.....


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## regenmusic

I found these the other day. For many years, I imagine, it was the only way to hear the 1936 performance of the Reiner Tristan and Isolde. It is a "private label" that stamps, "Not for Sale" on their labels! I guess you have to be in the inner circle.


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## regenmusic

regenmusic said:


> View attachment 88720
> View attachment 88721
> 
> 
> I found these the other day. For many years, I imagine, it was the only way to hear the 1936 performance of the Reiner Tristan and Isolde. It is a "private label" that stamps, "Not for Sale" on their labels! I guess you have to be in the inner circle.


Images are too small so trying again, I tried to reupload larger ones but it didn't change the size.


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## KenOC

regenmusic said:


> Images are too small so trying again, I tried to reupload larger ones but it didn't change the size.


To get a big image, you have to post from a web site.

1 - Upload your JPG to https://postimage.org/ and you'll be given a URL.
2 - Copy the URL to your clipboard using the icon to the right of the "Direct link" notice..
3 - As you enter your post, click the picture button at the point you want the picture to appear.
4 - Select the "From URL" tab in the dialog box that appears.
5 - Paste your image's URL into the place provided.
6 - VERY IMPORTANT! Uncheck the "Retrieve remote file and reference locally" checkbox.
7 - Click "OK".

Now you can continue typing or just post your message.


----------



## DarkAngel

"not for sale" on white label usually means it is a free promo sent to radio stations to play, as opposed retail version that is sold to customers.......


----------



## regenmusic

DarkAngel said:


> "not for sale" on white label usually means it is a free promo sent to radio stations to play, as opposed retail version that is sold to customers.......


Ah, ok. New again to vinyl.


----------



## Itullian

New on this label.


----------



## howlingfantods

howlingfantods said:


> But then again, you can always just listen to the Muck fragments on Youtube or wherever. I'm not sure I consider these fragments worth getting a recording of since they are valuable references but hardly something I feel like spinning that often. The bells are interesting though, not least because they sound a good quartertone flat--suggests that orchestras tuned lower back in Wagner's day.
> 
> I filled out a shopping bag o 20% off music at Pristine myself recently, mostly with Furtwangler's Beethoven and Brahms and Horenstein's Bruckner and Mahler. It is not hard at all to find Pristine recordings I'll put into my regular rotation much more than Muck's Parsifal.


Ok, just a note to say I'm an idiot and that I'd strongly recommend the Pristine Muck to anyone who is interested in Parsifal. It's another black magical resuscitation of some pretty dodgy sounding originals, and with the music cleaned up enough to actually listen to the performance, the recordings are very very special, particularly the mostly complete act 3, which I've been listening to compulsively.


----------



## Admiral

Anxiously awaiting a major Wagner haul: 1941 Tristan with Melchoir, 1952 Karajan Tristan, 1955 "second cycle" on Testament, filling out my 1958 cycle, Met Wagner box, Rudolf Schock box set with Kempe Meistersinger, and 2 or 3 others that I probably already own somewhere.


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## Admiral

Spinning my Bohm 1966 Tristan LPs right now. Those DG records were a little thin in the bass but the strings are caught beautifully.

Listened to the 1960 Kempe Rheingold yesterday; Uhde is really a special singer, or more precisely - singing actor. Will try to find time this weekend to play the Uhde/Kna Dutchman LPs I found for $2


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## interestedin

Operadepot has Tristan sale:

http://operadepot.com/collections/tristan-und-isolde


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## Admiral

^^^^
I think I'll pick up a couple of those, despite my rule to only buy after I listen to what I already own...


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## gardibolt

I don't know if this site has been mentioned here before, but I ran across this very handy guide to what recordings are extant from Bayreuth, including CD releases.

http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/arts/cas/staff/lockley/bayreuth/

Says last updated Sep 24 2016, so apparently it's pretty current.


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## Barbebleu

From OperaDepot I got the freebie plus Munich 1966 and Vienna 1967. Aaaargh! I might hear them next year if I'm lucky!


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## Admiral

"Second cycle" Walkure is in the house and off to a GREAT start!


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## DarkAngel

Admiral said:


> "Second cycle" Walkure is in the house and off to a GREAT start!


A true sign of Wagner addiction, there is no cure ha ha...........


----------



## Admiral

DarkAngel said:


> A true sign of Wagner addiction, there is no cure ha ha...........


Oh wait, I didn't know there was a second cycle Gotterdammerung... so I'm still short one

Listening to Klemperer Wagner orchestral highlights - great multi-disc set from EMI


----------



## kineno

DarkAngel said:


> A true sign of Wagner addiction, there is no cure ha ha...........


I couldn't live without any of them.


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## Admiral

My 1941 Tristan just arrived in a plastic pouch from the Post Office apologizing my damaging my mail, uh-oh. Why did they damage my CDs and not the 1000 annual credit card offers?

Turns out the box was indeed soaked through but thankfully the CDs and booklet are fine. I previously downloaded 3 excerpts on ITunes (surprised to find the New York 1941 Tristan on there - thought the sound was great so I bit the bullet on the Melodram set)

Listened to the Testament 1955 second cycle straight through last night: a rare treat for my (newly-busy) schedule. Hotter is just shattering. If any of the newer folks only know him from the older sets, you owe it to yourselves to get one of these mid-1950s sets. Before i got into Wagner I knew him as a lieder specialist, and that willingness to scale everything back but retain his intensity is central to his reading of Wotan.


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT

Admiral said:


> Turns out the box was indeed soaked through.


Something similar happened to me once. I fixed it by putting the box in the washing machine on the "Wring Cycle" setting


----------



## Admiral

Oh this EMI Walkure recording with Melchoir and Lehmann!

The sound is outstanding - derived from 78s but in some ways better than many modern multi-miked recordings. There is great immediacy and timbral accuracy that makes this an easy recommendation


----------



## howlingfantods

Admiral said:


> View attachment 89211
> Oh this EMI Walkure recording with Melchoir and Lehmann!
> 
> The sound is outstanding - derived from 78s but in some ways better than many modern multi-miked recordings. There is great immediacy and timbral accuracy that makes this an easy recommendation


If you like that recording, I'd encourage you to get the Naxos version, which includes the completion of Act 2 by Bruno Seidler-Winker. Bruno Walter completed recording all of Act 1 and scenes 3 and 5 of Act 2 in 1935, and Seidler-Winkler completed the rest of Act 2 in 1938, still with Melchior as Siegmund, and adding Margaret Klose, one of the great Frickas, Marta Fuchs, an excellent Brunnhilde (also recorded in the Elmendorff Bayreuth Gotterdammerung from 1942), and Hans Hotter's first significant recording in the role he absolutely owns. Seidler-Winkler isn't quite the artist that Bruno Walter is but he's still a very good musician and stylistically consistent with Walter's sections.


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## DarkAngel

^^^^ EMI offers the Seidler-Winkler completed Act 2 on another CD, but like HFT says the Naxos has both on 1 CD



















> Marta Fuchs, an excellent Brunnhilde (also recorded in the Elmendorff Bayreuth Gotterdammerung from 1942)


I was impressed with that recording also for Svanholm's Siegfried, what a great voice back then, great document of both singers.......










Check Fuchs & Svanholm 21:54 (Siegfried begins journey) very good sound for 1942


----------



## Admiral

^^^ I do indeed have the EMI Act 2 as well. Hoping to get to that this weekend

Yes, very good sound for 1942 indeed!


----------



## Wagnerfann

You can now purchase this very performance on Naxos in much improved sound. John Culshaw mentions the difficulties in his book Ring Resounding. Microphones were moved around by rival companies, etc. A fantastic recording with Hermann Uhde and Astrid Varnay a Macbeth-like couple never equaled since Marjorie Lawrence tackled Ortrud at the Met and other houses in the thirties. Windgassen and Steber are excellent as well. There is another recording of this same Bayreuth production that replaces Birgit Nilsson as Elsa. Nilsson and Varnay in the second act confrontation between Elsa and Ortrud is drama in extreme.


----------



## Admiral

Wagnerfann said:


> You can now purchase this very performance on Naxos in much improved sound. John Culshaw mentions the difficulties in his book Ring Resounding. Microphones were moved around by rival companies, etc. A fantastic recording with Hermann Uhde and Astrid Varnay a Macbeth-like couple never equaled since Marjorie Lawrence tackled Ortrud at the Met and other houses in the thirties. Windgassen and Steber are excellent as well. There is another recording of this same Bayreuth production that replaces Birgit Nilsson as Elsa. Nilsson and Varnay in the second act confrontation between Elsa and Ortrud is drama in extreme.


Which recording is this Wagnerian?


----------



## interestedin

Wagnerfann said:


> You can now purchase this very performance on Naxos in much improved sound. John Culshaw mentions the difficulties in his book Ring Resounding. Microphones were moved around by rival companies, etc. A fantastic recording with Hermann Uhde and Astrid Varnay a Macbeth-like couple never equaled since Marjorie Lawrence tackled Ortrud at the Met and other houses in the thirties. Windgassen and Steber are excellent as well. There is another recording of this same Bayreuth production that replaces Birgit Nilsson as Elsa. Nilsson and Varnay in the second act confrontation between Elsa and Ortrud is drama in extreme.


 ...............


----------



## Barbebleu

Admiral said:


> Which recording is this Wagnerian?


I think Wagnerian is referring to this recording. Perhaps this post was intended for the Lohengrin thread?


----------



## howlingfantods

Barbebleu said:


> I think Wagnerian is referring to this recording. Perhaps this post was intended for the Lohengrin thread?
> 
> View attachment 89260


I think maybe it was a reply to this post in this thread from over a year ago:

Historical Wagner Recordings...............

Context clues like talking about different label versions of this recording makes the response seem pretty natural.

That's actually exciting news! The version I have sounds bloody awful.

eta-hmm it doesn't go straight to the post. Anyways, I think it's a response to DA from post #275.


----------



## DarkAngel

53 Bayreuth Performance


----------



## Pugg

DarkAngel said:


> 53 Bayreuth Performance


YES, sorry for the capitals.:angel:


----------



## cheftimmyr

I think it's been over 3 weeks since I've last been able to post which means most of that time was spent not listening to Wagner... It took a work trip and a long plane ride to finally listen to the '60 Kempe Walkure. 

This was "therapy" for me considering the Wagner-famine I've been going through. I enjoyed hearing Jerome Hines' interpretation of Wotan; not the same vocal dramatist of Hotter, but it was helpful getting another singers perspective since 98% of my Wotan experience has been Hotter. Varnay delivers, for me, another stunning and emotionally engaging Brunnhilde; full of sympathy, compassion and despair for Siegmunds plight. 

The Volsung twins were well sung and Act 1 of this opera continually transports me to another emotional stratosphere upon each hearing. Wagner magic. Finally, Kempe leads a solid performance; not the magic of the Krauss which is the last Cycle I listened to, but by no means dull, dry or unmoving. 

A few personal observations. Almost one year into Wagner i have taken the studious approach of not listening to any of his works without libretto nor would i start listening to a work unless I could listen straight through, which given the time commitment necessary to listen straight through has probably hampered the frequency of my listening. Now, I feel like I can take off the handcuffs of the above constraints and be a little less rigid with my listening. The more I've listened, the less I need the safety of the libretto and knowing what every spoken word means; rather I can see and feel what's going on more and more in each work. I wonder if this is experience is similar to others? This will also allow me to listen more frequently and enjoy more often... 

It's been great to see the thread activity even though I haven't had anything to contribute of late!


----------



## Admiral

Great post! ^^^^^

Am dying to get some listening in this weekend but it's already looking bad for the required 4 hour space, and I just bought a new subwoofer of which Wagner would approve


----------



## DarkAngel

> A few personal observations. Almost one year into Wagner i have taken the studious approach of not listening to any of his works without libretto nor would i start listening to a work unless I could listen straight through, which given the time commitment necessary to listen straight through has probably hampered the frequency of my listening. Now, I feel like I can take off the handcuffs of the above constraints and be a little less rigid with my listening. The more I've listened, the less I need the safety of the libretto and knowing what every spoken word means; rather I can see and feel what's going on more and more in each work. I wonder if this is experience is similar to others? This will also allow me to listen more frequently and enjoy more often...


Chefty my method is to have at least one DVD/Blu Ray of all main operas so I can watch with subtitles and learn the general lyrics while listening and watching each scence, then in the future with just CDs playing I can visualize my own scences knowing in general what is being sung........

There are sometimes when I consult the lyrics if a certain scence inspires me to more fully explore the character dynamics and subtleties

*The 1960 Kempe Ring mixes things up with multiple singers for each role *
Wotan/Wanderer - Uhde & Hines
Brunnhilde - Varnay & Nilsson








60 Walkure - Jerome Hines


----------



## cheftimmyr

I post this, as today is the approximate one year anniversary of when I began listening to Wagner. His music (and works in total) has been a gift in my life and requires patience for development, as well as thought to understanding the many layers in his works. The reward of this due diligence is being transported to a world of beauty, darkness, mystery and higher thought. 

I thankfully stumbled onto this forum which has accelerated my Wagner (and operatic) growth as a listener and thinker. To all the kind members who have shared their knowledge, opinions and recommendations, I thank you. The music I have heard, and continue to discover and enjoy, will enrich my life for decades to come. 

I decided to post a discography of what I have listened to in the last year. The majority of the recordings listed are in direct correlation to recommendations from members in this forum and fall in the “historical” category. (Many of the recordings listed I've revisited frequently).

Ring Cycle:

Furtwangler ’50 La Scala (Pristine Audio)
Keilberth ’52 Bayreuth (Myto)
Keilberth ’53 Bayreuth (Pan Classic; Andromeda)
Krauss ’53 Bayreuth (Pristine Audio)
Keilberth ’55 Bayreuth (Testament)
Knap ’57 Bayreuth (Walhall)
Kempe ’60 Bayreuth (Myto)
Bohm ’66/67 Bayreuth (Decca)
Haitnik 2008 Studio (EMI)

Die Walkure:
-Leinsdorf ’40 MET (Pristine)

Gotterdamerung:
-Knap ’51 Bayreuth (Testament)

Parsifal:
Knap ’51 Bayreuth (ZYX)
Krauss ’53 Bayreuth (Pristine)
Knap ’61 Bayreuth (Myto)
Knap '62 Bayreuth (Phillips)
Kubelik ‘80 Studio (Arts Archives)
Barneboim 1991 Studio (TelDec)


Tristan:
Bodanzky ’37 MET (Immortal Performances) 
HvK ’52 Bayreuth (Walhall)
Furtwangler ’52 (EMI)
Furtwangler ’52 London (Pristine Audio)
Bohm ’66 Bayreuth (DG)

Dutchman:
Dorati Studio (Decca)
Knap ’54 Bayreuth (ZYX)
Keilberth ’55 (Testament)

Tannhauser:
Solti Studio (Decca)
Sawallisch ’61 Bayreuth (Myto)

Lohengrin:
Cluytens ’58 Bayreuth (Walhall)
Kempe Studio (EMI)
Sawallisch Bayreuth (Decca) 

Meistersingers:
Kubelik ’67 Studio (Arts Archives)
Kempe ’64 (Pristine Audio)


I still have much to listen to and discover, but my first year of Wagner has been extremely rewarding; musically and spiritually! :tiphat:


----------



## Admiral

Cheftimmy - very much my process here as well.

I undertook a few winters ago to dive into Wagner in a more systemic way and ended up traveling much the same path as you, with many of the same recordings.
In the nice weather months I pursue outdoor activities and then renew my passion for opera and classical music when the weather turns crisp. As a one-time aspiring opera singer, I bring a little more baggage to this journey than others do, but I deeply appreciate the knowledge and intensity of the longtime members who guide the newer folks through this.


----------



## DarkAngel

Fabulous collection there Chefty........what about the two elephants in the room from the 1960s, the Solti and Karajan Rings?

The Solti Ring boxset available budget price with latest remaster, Karajan Ring still full price but both have many great performances in great stereo studio sound you will not hear equaled today......

 

Hint.....put these on Xmas gift list for Santa's helpers


----------



## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> Fabulous collection there Chefty........what about the two elephants in the room from the 1960s, the Solti and Karajan Rings?
> 
> The Solti Ring boxset available budget price with latest remaster, Karajan Ring still full price but both have many great performances in great stereo studio sound you will not hear equaled today......
> 
> 
> 
> Hint.....put these on Xmas gift list for Santa's helpers


DA,

I think i'd put a Pristine order in before getting either of those. Maybe I feel both those dudes' Wagner is "over hyped"; yeah, I get the landmark achievement of the Solti stereo ring, etc, etc, and I have it on vinyl... Maybe it's just my mental block. I'll get to them at some point out of respect.... :roll eyes:

Only on your recommendation will I make sure to, now...


----------



## howlingfantods

DarkAngel said:


> Fabulous collection there Chefty........what about the two elephants in the room from the 1960s, the Solti and Karajan Rings?
> 
> The Solti Ring boxset available budget price with latest remaster, Karajan Ring still full price but both have many great performances in great stereo studio sound you will not hear equaled today......
> 
> 
> 
> Hint.....put these on Xmas gift list for Santa's helpers


*shrug* Other than historical significance, I'd say the bigger gaps in his list so far are the Matacic, Kubelik and Abbado Lohengrins, a Schoffler Meistersinger (my pick would be the 51 Kna or the 44 Bohm), and one of the Carlos Kleiber Tristans (I'm leaning to the '78 Scala as my favorite nowadays).

eta - btw chef, I'm pretty sure the Haitink Ring is late 80's/early 90's.


----------



## cheftimmyr

howlingfantods said:


> *shrug* Other than historical significance, I'd say the bigger gaps in his list so far are the Matacic, Kubelik and Abbado Lohengrins, a Schoffler Meistersinger (my pick would be the 51 Kna or the 44 Bohm), and one of the Carlos Kleiber Tristans (I'm leaning to the '78 Scala as my favorite nowadays).
> 
> eta - btw chef, I'm pretty sure the Haitink Ring is late 80's/early 90's.


Good call on the Haitink; I wrote the release date for that issue.

I have a Schorr recording compilation from Naxos (I think), and it was outstanding. I forgot to add that to the list. I need to get the '51 Kna Meister as well as explore the Lohengrins you mentioned.

Kleiber Tristan is also on the list

Thx for the recs


----------



## Barbebleu

cheftimmyr said:


> I post this, as today is the approximate one year anniversary of when I began listening to Wagner. His music (and works in total) has been a gift in my life and requires patience for development, as well as thought to understanding the many layers in his works. The reward of this due diligence is being transported to a world of beauty, darkness, mystery and higher thought.
> 
> I thankfully stumbled onto this forum which has accelerated my Wagner (and operatic) growth as a listener and thinker. To all the kind members who have shared their knowledge, opinions and recommendations, I thank you. The music I have heard, and continue to discover and enjoy, will enrich my life for decades to come.
> 
> I decided to post a discography of what I have listened to in the last year. The majority of the recordings listed are in direct correlation to recommendations from members in this forum and fall in the "historical" category. (Many of the recordings listed I've revisited frequently).
> 
> Ring Cycle:
> 
> Furtwangler '50 La Scala (Pristine Audio)
> Keilberth '52 Bayreuth (Myto)
> Keilberth '53 Bayreuth (Pan Classic; Andromeda)
> Krauss '53 Bayreuth (Pristine Audio)
> Keilberth '55 Bayreuth (Testament)
> Knap '57 Bayreuth (Walhall)
> Kempe '60 Bayreuth (Myto)
> Bohm '66/67 Bayreuth (Decca)
> Haitnik 2008 Studio (EMI)
> 
> Die Walkure:
> -Leinsdorf '40 MET (Pristine)
> 
> Gotterdamerung:
> -Knap '51 Bayreuth (Testament)
> 
> Parsifal:
> Knap '51 Bayreuth (ZYX)
> Krauss '53 Bayreuth (Pristine)
> Knap '61 Bayreuth (Myto)
> Knap '62 Bayreuth (Phillips)
> Kubelik '80 Studio (Arts Archives)
> Barneboim 1991 Studio (TelDec)
> 
> Tristan:
> Bodanzky '37 MET (Immortal Performances)
> HvK '52 Bayreuth (Walhall)
> Furtwangler '52 (EMI)
> Furtwangler '52 London (Pristine Audio)
> Bohm '66 Bayreuth (DG)
> 
> Dutchman:
> Dorati Studio (Decca)
> Knap '54 Bayreuth (ZYX)
> Keilberth '55 (Testament)
> 
> Tannhauser:
> Solti Studio (Decca)
> Sawallisch '61 Bayreuth (Myto)
> 
> Lohengrin:
> Cluytens '58 Bayreuth (Walhall)
> Kempe Studio (EMI)
> Sawallisch Bayreuth (Decca)
> 
> Meistersingers:
> Kubelik '67 Studio (Arts Archives)
> Kempe '64 (Pristine Audio)
> 
> I still have much to listen to and discover, but my first year of Wagner has been extremely rewarding; musically and spiritually! :tiphat:


I hate it when people publish lists like this.  now I have to get the Barenboim Parsifal which had completely slipped off my radar even though I had the CDs in my hand two years ago in Berlin at the opera. I will also have to get the '37 Tristan. Can't find a reasonably priced copy of that though so I will keep hunting. I also have noticed that this thread seems to have trickled to a halt with little in the way of recent contributions from DA, Itulian, Woodduck or, indeed, yourself. My own excuse is that more modern music has been taking my time up but hopefully I'll find time to get back to the past.

Incidentally I would add the '58 Bayreuth Ring to your collection if you get the chance. You won't be disappointed.


----------



## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> I hate it when people publish lists like this.  now I have to get the Barenboim Parsifal which had completely slipped off my radar even though I had the CDs in my hand two years ago in Berlin at the opera. I will also have to get the '37 Tristan. Can't find a reasonably priced copy of that though so I will keep hunting. I also have noticed that this thread seems to have trickled to a halt with little in the way of recent contributions from DA, Itulian, Woodduck or, indeed, yourself. My own excuse is that more modern music has been taking my time up but hopefully I'll find time to get back to the past.
> 
> Incidentally I would add the '58 Bayreuth Ring to your collection if you get the chance. You won't be disappointed.


Chefty is definitely not done, even with the 1950s.......:devil:

Fortunately the cost is very low currently, must get 58 Knap Ring (Walhall label) and 53 Keilberth Ring new boxset, both excellent sound and performance, go all the way brothers and sisters


----------



## Barbebleu

Hi DA, good to hear from you again and you are definitely right about those recordings. Have you heard the '37 Met Tristan and, if so, what is your opinion.


----------



## cheftimmyr

Barbebleu said:


> I hate it when people publish lists like this.  now I have to get the Barenboim Parsifal which had completely slipped off my radar even though I had the CDs in my hand two years ago in Berlin at the opera. I will also have to get the '37 Tristan. Can't find a reasonably priced copy of that though so I will keep hunting. I also have noticed that this thread seems to have trickled to a halt with little in the way of recent contributions from DA, Itulian, Woodduck or, indeed, yourself. My own excuse is that more modern music has been taking my time up but hopefully I'll find time to get back to the past.
> 
> Incidentally I would add the '58 Bayreuth Ring to your collection if you get the chance. You won't be disappointed.


Barbie, thanks for response. No one more than I has been disappointed by the lack of momentum in the thread. For me, life has come full circle and significantly cut into my Wagner/Opera listening time. Without going into full details, I'm buying my partner out of the business I own and am working on two other startups along with, now, solely monitoring/maintaining and steering the current business. Add to that, spousal commitments and that has had me almost at max of late.

I have decided that I am indeed going to pull the trigger on another Pristine order soon; no more putting it off! And also finally finishing the current Wagner selections I have in line, namely, Toscanini Conducts Wagner/Verdi set.

I did listen to the Karajan Tristan (1972) with Vickers and Dernesch, which I have on vinyl... I felt some places were dragging and lacked momentum but I really like Vickers in general and also having Ludwig as Brangane. The vorspiel to Act 3, no matter who is conducting, is enthralling and totally forboding to me, and I think an under appreciated (or at least not frequently mentioned) part of the opera. The '72 is not "historical" but it was recently listened to. Also, I went through a vinyl collection by Klemperer called "Klemperer Conducts Wagner". Overall a nice listen, I did not however care for the tempo in Siegfried's Funeral March.

I'll post as soon as I have placed my Pristine order; I'll also add the '58 Knap Cycle to the "buy" list... The '53 Keilberth is a gem! Maybe I'll relisten to that... I also have Il Trittico and Otello in line to listen to as well... So little time...


----------



## cheftimmyr

Barbebleu said:


> Hi DA, good to hear from you again and you are definitely right about those recordings. Have you heard the '37 Met Tristan and, if so, what is your opinion.


Barbie, the '37 Tristan from IM came at a dear price ($).... it's hard to justify but curiosity got the best of me! I found the sound quality an issue for me, but maybe now that I'm further into historical listening I might have a different opinion; another one to revisit. I do remember the sound quality being so distracting that I had a hard time focusing and making out some of the vocals; just my 2cents though


----------



## Barbebleu

cheftimmyr said:


> Barbie, thanks for response. No one more than I has been disappointed by the lack of momentum in the thread. Also, I went through a vinyl collection by Klemperer called "Klemperer Conducts Wagner". Overall a nice listen, I did not however care for the tempo in Siegfried's Funeral March.


Yes, it's a real pain when real life interrupts the musical life. I recently got the following Klemperer box which I think has all the Wagner on your vinyl plus a Walkure Act 1 with Dernesch, William Cochran and Hans Sotin and a whole lot of good Strauss stuff which I love. I also bought the Barenboim Parsifal and until I see a really cheap '37 Tristan I'll be content with my Beecham from the same year. Hope you get some quality listening time in soon.


----------



## gardibolt

The 57 Bayreuth Ring is excellent, but is the 58 different enough to really be distinguishable? I thought they had largely the same casts, plus of course Knappertsbusch.


----------



## Barbebleu

gardibolt said:


> The 57 Bayreuth Ring is excellent, but is the 58 different enough to really be distinguishable? I thought they had largely the same casts, plus of course Knappertsbusch.


You haven't taken into account fanatical completists like myself. :lol:

All kidding aside I think they sound different enough to make them distinguishable but probably if you have either it's not necessary to have both unless you have enough of a disposable income to not care!


----------



## howlingfantods

The 57 is kind of a mess honestly, especially Act 1 of Walkure where Kna and Nilsson are staging a battle of wills over tempo.


----------



## kineno

howlingfantods said:


> The 57 is kind of a mess honestly, especially Act 1 of Walkure where Kna and Nilsson are staging a battle of wills over tempo.


Although, in 58, there are battles between Kna and Vickers.


----------



## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> Hi DA, good to hear from you again and you are definitely right about those recordings. Have you heard the *'37 Met Tristan* and, if so, what is your opinion.


That is Duck's fav as I recall, many great Flagstad Tristans in those halcyon days of 36-41 at MET and ROH, the Immortal Performance label 37 Tristan is nice package and booklet but sound is not greatest, my favorite is the 41 MET Leinsdorf a Saturday radio broadcast one of Flagstads last before returning to Norway during war......sound is much better and 4 main parts are all excellent, several CD versions plus spotify and tidal streaming available, I have this one:


----------



## howlingfantods

kineno said:


> Although, in 58, there are battles between Kna and Vickers.


Yeah, although it's not quite as bad as Nilsson the prior year. I think the singers had it right too, the forward momentum just dies pretty often on Kna's Ring sets. His cycles are all pretty hit or miss for me.


----------



## cheftimmyr

howlingfantods said:


> Yeah, although it's not quite as bad as Nilsson the prior year. I think the singers had it right too, the forward momentum just dies pretty often on Kna's Ring sets. His cycles are all pretty hit or miss for me.


I can understand this point of view in respect to Knap; Ive found specifically the '53 Krauss and the '55 Keilberth (Testament) to be among the gems of the '50's Bayreuth cycles... I have the '57 Knap and really enjoyed the broad, magnificent (Romantic?) aura Knap creates in the cycle but it does drag at certain points. I value the overall contribution and diversity it gives my library and experience, though...


----------



## howlingfantods

cheftimmyr said:


> I can understand this point of view in respect to Knap; Ive found specifically the '53 Krauss and the '55 Keilberth (Testament) to be among the gems of the '50's Bayreuth cycles... I have the '57 Knap and really enjoyed the broad, magnificent (Romantic?) aura Knap creates in the cycle but it does drag at certain points. I value the overall contribution and diversity it gives my library and experience, though...


Yeah, I agree, it's definitely worth hearing his approach. It's not like my objections to many conductors where I feel like they have a mistaken conception of the whole composition and sound--Kna just has this odd tendency where he seems to be putting the brakes on the music so we can admire every facet of the highlights just at the times when the music is crying out to rush forward and gather intensity. It's a habit that I've also noticed in his Bruckner and Beethoven but less so with his Parsifal and Meistersinger--the gigantic ritardendos where if anything, there should be an accelerando. It's almost like a rehearsal where you're going over a tricky bit of music very slowly to display every element. I enjoy his basic pulse and tempo but these moments are both kind of unsatisfying and seem almost analytic, pretty at odds with his overall approach. It's like he's demonstrating the music instead of playing it at times.

Oof speaking of battles of will over tempi, Windgassen and Kna... not on the same page a lot of times.


----------



## cheftimmyr

howlingfantods said:


> Yeah, I agree, it's definitely worth hearing his approach. It's not like my objections to many conductors where I feel like they have a mistaken conception of the whole composition and sound--Kna just has this odd tendency where he seems to be putting the brakes on the music so we can admire every facet of the highlights just at the times when the music is crying out to rush forward and gather intensity. It's a habit that I've also noticed in his Bruckner and Beethoven but less so with his Parsifal and Meistersinger--the gigantic ritardendos where if anything, there should be an accelerando. It's almost like a rehearsal where you're going over a tricky bit of music very slowly to display every element. I enjoy his basic pulse and tempo but these moments are both kind of unsatisfying and seem almost analytic, pretty at odds with his overall approach. It's like he's demonstrating the music instead of playing it at times.
> 
> Oof speaking of battles of will over tempi, Windgassen and Kna... not on the same page a lot of times.


I think this is what allowed him to excel with Parsifal though... never a moment rushed but just overtaken by the sheer weight and intensity of the score; savoring every moment (especially the '62 and '64).


----------



## Woodduck

To those with reservations about Knappertsbusch, I recommend the live 1950 _Tristan_ from Munich, with Gunther Treptow and Helena Braun. A passionate, powerful performance by all concerned, available on several labels.


----------



## DarkAngel

howlingfantods said:


> Yeah, although it's not quite as bad as Nilsson the prior year. I think the singers had it right too, the *forward momentum just dies pretty often on Kna's Ring sets*. His cycles are all pretty hit or miss for me.


I never got that feeling with Knap's Rings, he has his own unique style which makes them all the more appealing for me to collect, *time for research with Walkure*......who actually is slowest in tempo, we shall see in total minutes

67 Bohm - 210
53 Krauss - 211
55 Keilberth - 216
62 Leinsdorf - 216
80 Janowski - 220
63 Solti - 228
54 Furtwangler - 230 (studio)
57 Knap - 232
88 Haitink - 232
93 Barenboim - 233
67 Karajan - 236
11 Gergiev - 237
87 Levine - 244

57 Knap is actually close to the "average" tempo or total timing among top wagner conductors


----------



## howlingfantods

DarkAngel said:


> I never got that feeling with Knap's Rings, he has his own unique style which makes them all the more appealing for me to collect, *time for research with Walkure*......who actually is slowest in tempo, we shall see in total minutes
> 
> 67 Bohm - 210
> 53 Krauss - 211
> 55 Keilberth - 216
> 62 Leinsdorf - 216
> 80 Janowski - 220
> 63 Solti - 228
> 54 Furtwangler - 230 (studio)
> 57 Knap - 232
> 88 Haitink - 232
> 93 Barenboim - 233
> 67 Karajan - 236
> 11 Gergiev - 237
> 87 Levine - 244
> 
> 57 Knap is actually close to the "average" tempo or total timing among top wagner conductors


Like I said in my above comment, I like his overall pulse and tempo--Knappertsbusch isn't like Goodall or Levine who are just leaden. It's the giant ritardendos in places like the middle of the second act prelude from Walkure or the Forging Song or the duet at the end of Walkure Act 1 that I'm criticizing--those ritardendos probably don't add much more than a couple of minutes to the overall length, but they badly damage the overall performance.

@duck - I'm not criticizing Kna as a general matter. I greatly admire his Parsifal and Meistersinger for instance, and I enjoy his Bruckner quite a lot even though he insisted on playing the discredited first editions. I don't love the Tristan but that's mostly because I don't much like Braun.

But although I admire a lot of Kna, I think the '56, '57 and '58 cycles have their ups and downs. Even Kna's admirers have generally understood that he was a pretty hit or miss conductor, both in terms of being particularly good at some repertoire and not some others, and being much better some nights and not others. Unfortunately, all three complete cycles I have by him are plagued by consistent interpretative problems especially in the first three nights, which leads to my general conclusion that the Ring is one of those which is more of a miss for him on repertoire grounds than being just off on a particular night.

eta - it's probably worth mentioning that even in his problematic Ring performances, he still has many great moments too, like he's wonderful in the Walkure Act 2 scenes after the problematic performances of the prelude. It's really the oddest thing about Kna's Rings; I don't know of any other performances of the cycle that does some really fiendishly difficult things so well but some of the simplest things so poorly.


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> I never got that feeling with Knap's Rings, he has his own unique style which makes them all the more appealing for me to collect, *time for research with Walkure*......who actually is slowest in tempo, we shall see in total minutes
> 
> 67 Bohm - 210
> 53 Krauss - 211
> 55 Keilberth - 216
> 62 Leinsdorf - 216
> 80 Janowski - 220
> 63 Solti - 228
> 54 Furtwangler - 230 (studio)
> 57 Knap - 232
> 88 Haitink - 232
> 93 Barenboim - 233
> 67 Karajan - 236
> 11 Gergiev - 237
> 87 Levine - 244
> 
> 57 Knap is actually close to the "average" tempo or total timing among top wagner conductors


Aah, DA, you have way too much time on your hands. Sadly so do I and I love doing this sort of comparison.


----------



## Barbebleu

Woodduck said:


> To those with reservations about Knappertsbusch, I recommend the live 1950 _Tristan_ from Munich, with Gunther Treptow and Helena Braun. A passionate, powerful performance by all concerned, available on several labels.


I was never sure about this but your recommendation is good enough for me. Now on order.


----------



## Woodduck

Barbebleu said:


> I was never sure about this but your recommendation is good enough for me. Now on order.


It should be noted that the sound is mediocre, but listenable. Those into historical recordings should not be deterred.


----------



## DarkAngel

DarkAngel said:


> 67 Bohm - 210
> 53 Krauss - 211
> 55 Keilberth - 216
> 62 Leinsdorf - 216
> 80 Janowski - 220
> 63 Solti - 228
> 54 Furtwangler - 230 (studio)
> 57 Knap - 232
> 88 Haitink - 232
> 93 Barenboim - 233
> 67 Karajan - 236
> 11 Gergiev - 237
> 87 Levine - 244
> *75 Goodall - 249*
> 
> 57 Knap is actually close to the "average" tempo or total timing among top wagner conductors


HFT reminded me of Goodall Ring (in English) never purchased that Ring but it is really slow, is there any slower among major conductors?

The older pre 1950 recordings hard to get accurate read on timings because they often had cuts made for recording or broadcast reasons.........


----------



## Pugg

Opera depot has a new free download:
New Free Download

Götterdämmerung
Richard Wagner

Birgit Nilsson, Hans Hopf, Gottlob Frick, Thomas Stewart, Régine Crespin
Rudolf Kempe


----------



## gardibolt

The will is weak, the wallet is open. 1958 Knappertsbusch Ring ordered. Sigh.


----------



## cheftimmyr

Gearing up for my Pristine order I listened to this collection over the weekend; I had to spend a fair amount of time alone in the car so it turned out to be a perfect arrangement. The sound quality is fair and it was a nice glimpse of Toscanini and his take on Wagner.


----------



## Barbebleu

cheftimmyr said:


> Gearing up for my Pristine order I listened to this collection over the weekend; I had to spend a fair amount of time alone in the car so it turned out to be a perfect arrangement. The sound quality is fair and it was a nice glimpse of Toscanini and his take on Wagner.
> 
> View attachment 90307


Good to see you back Chef. I have been neglecting Wagner of late but I daresay I shall return to him anon. I was watching the Blutbruderschaft scene from Culshaw's Golden Ring and it reminded me how good Solti's Gotterdammerung is. Nilsson, Frick and Fischer-Dieskau in resplendent voice and the VPO playing as if their lives depended on it. With Solti conducting that was probably the case!

I've noticed a dearth of posts by the usual suspects on this thread in particular. Little or nothing from DA, Woodduck or Itulian. Pity.


----------



## cheftimmyr

Barbebleu said:


> Good to see you back Chef. I have been neglecting Wagner of late but I daresay I shall return to him anon. I was watching the Blutbruderschaft scene from Culshaw's Golden Ring and it reminded me how good Solti's Gotterdammerung is. Nilsson, Frick and Fischer-Dieskau in resplendent voice and the VPO playing as if their lives depended on it. With Solti conducting that was probably the case!
> 
> I've noticed a dearth of posts by the usual suspects on this thread in particular. Little or nothing from DA, Woodduck or Itulian. Pity.


I'm reaching for the Solti now, thanks to your tantalizing description!

I have been painfully absent myself; I bought out my business partner and am in the midst of two more startups; my time in general has not been my own, so the weekend listening I got was very therapeutic!


----------



## Barbebleu

cheftimmyr said:


> I'm reaching for the Solti now, thanks to your tantalizing description!
> 
> I have been painfully absent myself; I bought out my business partner and am in the midst of two more startups; my time in general has not been my own, so the weekend listening I got was very therapeutic!


Hope you enjoy it Chef. Very visceral and not for the faint-hearted!


----------



## Barbebleu

cheftimmyr said:


> I'm reaching for the Solti now, thanks to your tantalizing description!
> 
> I have been painfully absent myself; I bought out my business partner and am in the midst of two more startups; my time in general has not been my own, so the weekend listening I got was very therapeutic!


On the DVD the camera settles on the VPO near the end of the scene and I noticed the fabulous principal horn player, Roland Berger, with a very 60's, almost Elvis-like quiff. His horn playing is one of the highlights of this, or indeed, any other Ring Cycle. Brilliant player.

This an interesting article about horn playing in the Ring.

https://www.operanorth.co.uk/blogs/in-conversation-with-hornist-bob-ashworth


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## cheftimmyr

It's Black Friday here in the US, so I went over to Pristine and even though they aren't offering additional discounts today I put in an order anyway; the 20% is nice when you order 10+ but the shipping still sucks. Very excited to have this order en route. 

Die Walkure (Act 1)- Lehman, Melchior, Bruno Walter

Toscanini All-Wagner Concert (1941)

Toscanini's Final Concert at La Scala

Muck Complete Parsifal Recordings

Toscanini Conducts Wagner Orchestral Music (1943)

Potted Ring Cycle

Furtwangler "Die Walkure" (1954 studio): Suthaus, Rysanek, Modl

Tristan MET (1960): Nilsson, Vinay, Karl Bohm 

Hollander MET (1960): Rysanek

And.... not Wagner but it completed the order: Goldberg Variations 1954: Glenn Gould 

Lots to be thankful for in this order, I anticipate!


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## DarkAngel

^^^^ Great haul there Chefty, you will be amazed at the sound quality of the "studio" potted Ring for sure!










Also if you are Bach keyboard fan the WTC of Feinberg (playing piano) is the very best I have heard, not well known and hard to find but this Russian recording is essential........










http://archive.constantcontact.com/fs142/1104014358705/archive/1117370158847.html


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## silentio

^ I am very pleased with the quality of the remastered Potted Ring. Good investment indeed!

Sorry for derailing the Wagner thread for this silly question. Anyone here already got Pristine's release of iconic Desormiere _Pelleas et Melisande?_ How good is it compared to the EMI?

https://www.pristineclassical.com/paco063.html


----------



## Barbebleu

cheftimmyr said:


> It's Black Friday here in the US, so I went over to Pristine and even though they aren't offering additional discounts today I put in an order anyway; the 20% is nice when you order 10+ but the shipping still sucks. Very excited to have this order en route.
> 
> Die Walkure (Act 1)- Lehman, Melchior, Bruno Walter
> 
> Toscanini All-Wagner Concert (1941)
> 
> Toscanini's Final Concert at La Scala
> 
> Muck Complete Parsifal Recordings
> 
> Toscanini Conducts Wagner Orchestral Music (1943)
> 
> Potted Ring Cycle
> 
> Furtwangler "Die Walkure" (1954 studio): Suthaus, Rysanek, Modl
> 
> Tristan MET (1960): Nilsson, Vinay, Karl Bohm
> 
> Hollander MET (1960): Rysanek
> 
> And.... not Wagner but it completed the order: Goldberg Variations 1954: Glenn Gould
> 
> Lots to be thankful for in this order, I anticipate!


The Gould is fabulous.


----------



## Azol

Finally got hold on these two treasury boxes!!!


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## DarkAngel

Two great ones, the Kubelik Parsifal very pricey but perhaps the very best "stereo" version available

The 52 Karajan Tristan one of my very favs, the Orfeo you got has deluxe package and booklet, for those on budget the Walhall also available in great sound










Karajan went out in a "blaze of glory" was not invited back to Bayreuth Festival after 52 season, reading of Astrid Varnay's book claims some singers did not get along well with HVK, therefore Wagner brothers did not ask him to return


----------



## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> Two great ones, the Kubelik Parsifal very pricey but perhaps the very best "stereo" version available
> 
> The 52 Karajan Tristan one of my very favs, the Orfeo you got has deluxe package and booklet, for those on budget the Walhall also available in great sound
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Karajan went out in a "blaze of glory" was not invited back to Bayreuth Festival after 52 season, reading of Astrid Varnay's book claims some singers did not get along well with HVK, therefore Wagner brothers did not ask him to return


DA, I'm gonna have to add the Varnay book you mentioned to my "buy" list! Nice pickups for Azol , the Tristan especially. Kubelik Parsifal I was underwhelmed; sound was gorgeous but that performance didn't connect with me in the deep-emotional way that Knapp or Krauss does. I will revisit it down the road, to be sure.


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## gardibolt

I've been listening to the 1943 Bayreuth Meistersinger conducted by Furtwängler from Opera Depot; the sound is really quite good---much better than any other wartime Furtwängler I'ver heard--and the performances are pretty enjoyable as well.


----------



## DarkAngel

cheftimmyr said:


> DA, I'm gonna have to add the Varnay book you mentioned to my "buy" list! Nice pickups for Azol , the Tristan especially. Kubelik Parsifal I was underwhelmed; sound was gorgeous but that performance didn't connect with me in the deep-emotional way that Knapp or Krauss does. I will revisit it down the road, to be sure.


Notice my caveat that Kubelik perhaps best *"stereo"* Parsifal meaning our Bayreuth monos still reign supreme........

Astrid has many great stories, as young child with both parents opera singers and father managed the Norway opera which employed many members of the Flagstad family allowing Astrid and Kirsten to become good friends. (this would pay huge benefits when later she was given 51 Bayreuth Ring brunhilde role without vocal audition upon personal recommendation from Kirsten)

During 1930s she was living in NY area and accepted into the MET singer program under Bodanzky, her MET vocal trainer for wagner roles was Hermann Weigert......they later married, Astrid recounts that Hermann loved American movies but did not understand English enough to get the "punch lines" so Astrid became his movie translator on first dates, rest is history

Many stories of how the MET and Bayreuth opera scence worked in the golden era


----------



## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> Notice my caveat that Kubelik perhaps best *"stereo"* Parsifal meaning our Bayreuth monos still reign supreme........


The '62 Bayreuth Kna is in stereo, but I'm sure you're including that under the Bayreuth monos.


----------



## Itullian

Why do you folks not like the Solti Parsifal?


----------



## Guest

Itullian said:


> Why do you folks not like the Solti Parsifal?


I do like the Solti Parsifal. :tiphat:


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## cheftimmyr

gardibolt said:


> I've been listening to the 1943 Bayreuth Meistersinger conducted by Furtwängler from Opera Depot; the sound is really quite good---much better than any other wartime Furtwängler I'ver heard--and the performances are pretty enjoyable as well.


Norpete has this for a great price but has been out of stock for over 3 months... so I keep waiting! I may grow impatient and just order on amazon dispite the higher $$$. 

Does anyone know how the Opera Depot version compares to the Walhall? I've had good luck with Walhall so that's why I was holding out for that recording.


----------



## Woodduck

Itullian said:


> Why do you folks not like the Solti Parsifal?


I remember it as very good on the whole, but I don't personally care for the voice of Rene Kollo, and I've never liked the light, lyric baritone of Fischer-Dieskau trying to fill out heavy, dramatic bass-baritone parts like the Dutchman, Wotan and Amfortas. He has to overinflate his sound and exaggerate his diction, and I don't buy it; he's better as Kurwenal (in the Furtwangler _Tristan_) and Gunther (in the Solti _Ring_). Christa Ludwig is a luscious Kundry, of course, and Frick is impressive as always, even late in his career. Solti doesn't achieve quite the organic flow of Knappertsbusch, or quite the magical spell, but I respect his work. Fine sound. I haven't heard the performance in many years, and might feel differently about it now.


----------



## SiegendesLicht

Traverso said:


> I do like the Solti Parsifal. :tiphat:


I like it too, and in part precisely because DFD sings the role of Amfortas (yeah, I know, annoying fangirl behavior). Also, it was my first Parsifal ever.


----------



## Woodduck

Interesting how F-D divides opinion. In fairness, the very self-conscious (if not self-absorbed) character of Amfortas, forever analyzing his guilt and pain, suits the self-consciously analytical art of this fine Lieder singer better than do the sweepingly heroic utterances of the Dutchman. The variety in Wotan's role gives him some opportunities for the precise pointing of meaning he's famous (or notorious) for, but the great "Farewell" and the scene with Erda really do call for a different magnitude of voice, a Heldenbariton: a Schorr, a Huehn, a Hotter, a London. It's telling that F-D was cast as Wotan in _Rheingold_, but not in subsequent operas, of Karajan's _Ring_. I'd like to think that this was by his own wise choice.


----------



## SiegendesLicht

I have never heard DFD as the Dutchman, and concerning his Wotan I am in full agreement with you. As for Amfortas - "the precise pointing of meaning" and "forever analyzing his guilt and pain" are exactly what I love him for. The way he sings his monologue in Act I makes me think: "This is what someone in the pains of hell would sound like" - provided that hell is mostly a psychological, not a physical torture.


----------



## Pugg

From Opera Depot:

A New(ly complete) Ring!

Just when you thought that every recording out there has surfaced, the long lost Götterdämmerung from Bayreuth, 1963 drops into your lap...

I am happy to offer, for the first time ever, the complete 1963 Ring Cycle from Bayreuth. The cast includes Astrid Varnay, Anita Välkki, Hans Hotter, Theo Adam, Otto Wiener, Hans Hopf, Fritz Uhl, Grace Hoffman, Franz Crass and Gottlob Frick and is conducted by Rudolf Kempe.


----------



## Scopitone

60% Ring Cycles Flash Sale.

What would be a good one to pick? Bayreuth '53?

They have a '65 Solti from London.

http://operadepot.com/collections/der-ring-des-nibelungen


----------



## Retrograde Inversion

Not sure if this has been covered before, (and I'm not about to read 163 pages of this suitably Wagnerian length thread to find out), but what do you think of these two recordings?


----------



## amfortas

Retrograde Inversion said:


> Not sure if this has been covered before, (and I'm not about to read 163 pages of this suitably Wagnerian length thread to find out), but what do you think of these two recordings?


Interesting curiosity: dueling mezzos. Both great singers, but to me, Ludwig's voice sounds more at home in this role--in part because Horne's low notes really scream "mezzo."


----------



## DarkAngel

Both singers (Ludwig & Horne) at very skilled in Wagner vocal delivery and stylistic elements.......just lacking the very highest notes and "dramatic edge" of the true soprano brunnhildes 

It is however a different easier matter to record the piece in isolation, since in a real live Gotterdammerung performance you have sung and acted on stage for hours before singing this......

There is actually a 56 Bayreuth Gotterdammerung where Varnay had to open singing the 3rd norn part then quickly appear in very next scence as brunnhilde with Siegfried (only a short musical interlude between)


----------



## Woodduck

Retrograde Inversion said:


> Not sure if this has been covered before, (and I'm not about to read 163 pages of this suitably Wagnerian length thread to find out), but what do you think of these two recordings?


Ludwig and Knappertsbusch are magnificent. I don't think I've heard a more powerful rendering of this scene, every moment freighted with meaning. Could Ludwig have handled it in the theater? Maybe not, but I'm grateful for this.

I'm not sure Horne knew what she was singing about, though she sang it smoothly.


----------



## DarkAngel

Woodduck said:


> *Ludwig and Knappertsbusch are magnificent*. I don't think I've heard a more powerful rendering of this scene, every moment freighted with meaning. Could Ludwig have handled it in the theater? Maybe not, but I'm grateful for this.


Ludwig does have an experience edge with distinguished live performance experience in Wagner roles like Fricka, Brangane, Ortrud..........to prepare for grand conclusion scence of the Ring, the final sacrifice and destruction of the gods








Ortrud


----------



## Retrograde Inversion

Woodduck said:


> Ludwig and Knappertsbusch are magnificent. I don't think I've heard a more powerful rendering of this scene, every moment freighted with meaning. Could Ludwig have handled it in the theater? Maybe not, but I'm grateful for this.
> 
> I'm not sure Horne knew what she was singing about, though she sang it smoothly.


I seem to recall that Ludwig was considering Brünnhilde and Isolde, but decided (perhaps wisely) against it. But I absolutely concur with your assessment (although the orchestra is pretty bad).


----------



## amfortas

DarkAngel said:


> Ludwig does have an experience edge with distinguished live performance experience in Wagner roles like Fricka, Brangane, Ortrud..........to prepare for grand conclusion scence of the Ring, the final sacrifice and destruction of the gods


Not to mention perhaps the most pertinent experience of all--the _Götterdämmerung_ Waltraute, a kind of preview of the Immolation, sung to some of the same motifs.


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> Why do you folks not like the Solti Parsifal?


i like it too. Good to see you back Itullian.


----------



## Barbebleu

Scopitone said:


> 60% Ring Cycles Flash Sale.
> 
> What would be a good one to pick? Bayreuth '53?
> 
> They have a '65 Solti from London.
> 
> http://operadepot.com/collections/der-ring-des-nibelungen


Both!:lol:bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb


----------



## gardibolt

I was bored and decided to read through this thread again (about halfway through so far). Hard to believe that I've gone from I think 3 Ring Cycles 18 months ago to...erm....*_33_* currently. Yikes. And I've listened to them all, some multiple times, except for the most recent acquisition, the 1958 Knappertsbusch cycle which I'd put off buying for some reason (most likely the flood of other releases), and which will probably have to wait for the holidays.

Lots of interesting criticism and thoughts here. I don't necessarily agree with all of my own older expressed opinions at this point. I already have acquired a good deal of what's recommended, but I see I did neglect the Cosima Era set of ancient Wagner recordings, so I've put in an order for that to round out the historical stuff.

I was particularly interested to read Woodduck's description of James Milligan from the 1961 Bayreuth Ring Cycle with Kempe, which apparently he attended, the lucky (wood) duck; I did get that one from Opera Depot some time ago but I'll have to go back and listen for Milligan in particular--and possibly Woodduck coughing in the cheap seats.

Anyway, it's been a lot of fun to relive things such as the excitement of the 1953 Keilberth being issued in such a nice set with excellent sound and all the discovery that was going on. It's been hard on the wallet, but man I've acquired a lot of great singing in the last 18 months.


----------



## Barbebleu

gardibolt said:


> I was bored and decided to read through this thread again (about halfway through so far). Hard to believe that I've gone from I think 3 Ring Cycles 18 months ago to...erm....29? currently. Yikes. And I've listened to them all, some multiple times, except for the most recent acquisition, the 1958 Knappertsbusch cycle which I'd put off buying for some reason (most likely the flood of other releases), and which will probably have to wait for the holidays.
> 
> Lots of interesting criticism and thoughts here. I don't necessarily agree with all of my own older expressed opinions at this point. I already have acquired a good deal of what's recommended, but I see I did neglect the Cosima Era set of ancient Wagner recordings, so I've put in an order for that to round out the historical stuff.
> 
> I was particularly interested to read Woodduck's description of James Milligan from the 1961 Bayreuth Ring Cycle with Kempe, which apparently he attended, the lucky (wood) duck; I did get that one from Opera Depot some time ago but I'll have to go back and listen for Milligan in particular--and possibly Woodduck coughing in the cheap seats.
> 
> Anyway, it's been a lot of fun to relive things such as the excitement of the 1953 Keilberth being issued in such a nice set with excellent sound and all the discovery that was going on. It's been hard on the wallet, but man I've acquired a lot of great singing in the last 18 months.


I sympathise with the difficulty of finding time to listen to a glut of acquisitions. Opera Depots release of the 1963 Bayreuth Gotterdammerung nudged me up to 48 Rings. Aargh! I have about fifteen to listen to but I keep getting distracted by other stuff and I don't like to listen to bits at a time. I need to, at the very least, hear acts in their entirety. First world problems, eh!


----------



## DarkAngel

We will be without the amazing services of Pristine XR for near future as Andrew Rose has had a major website FUBAR, he has preserved the music files but website itself will have to be rebuilt.......a tragic circumstance for historic Wagner collectors

*Hopefully Chefty's latest order was shipped out *

Rose still sending weekly email newsletter and has facebook site with latest info and newsletters


----------



## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> We will be without the amazing services of Pristine XR for near future as Andrew Rose has had a major website FUBAR, he has preserved the music files but website itself will have to be rebuilt.......a tragic circumstance for historic Wagner collectors
> 
> *Hopefully Chefty's latest order was shipped out *
> 
> Rose still sending weekly email newsletter and has facebook site with latest info and newsletters


WHAT?!?!?


----------



## DarkAngel

Chefty read all about it............

https://www.facebook.com/pristineclassical


----------



## gardibolt

Has anyone read Thielemann's recent memoir, My Life with Wagner?


----------



## mountmccabe

DarkAngel said:


> Chefty read all about it............
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/pristineclassical


How awful!

Their offerings have seemed impressive, but I had not actually purchased anything. Recently I've been researching to make some purchases to shore up my physical (or at least locally stored digital) Rings, but I caught them at the wrong time.


----------



## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> Chefty read all about it............
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/pristineclassical


Thank Gott they didn't lose any of the recordings... I submitted my order almost two weeks ago so hopefully it's getting worked on... 

Silver lining- they were planning on an updated website, so at least it was on the radar; circumstances still must be annoying. .


----------



## Pugg

From :_ Norbeck, Peters & Ford
_
DIE MEISTERSINGER, recorded 1951, w.Kempe Cond. Dresden Staatsoper Ensemble; Ferdinand Frantz, Bernd Aldenhoff, Tiana Lemnitz, Heinrich Pflanzl, Gerhard Unger, Kurt Bohme, Gerhard Stolze, Theo Adam, etc. (Germany) 4-Hanssler Profil PH13006. (OP3186)

"That remarkable musician Rudolf Kempe made two recordings [of MEISTERSINGER]. The first [above] had a short catalogue life complete....It originated in a wartime broadcast from Dresden....worth having for the dulcet Eva of Tiana Lemnitz and for Ferdinand Frantz, a favourite singer of Kempe's, in fresher voice than in Kempe's 1957 set....there is a total inevitability, a sort of splendid rightness, that is striking....Frantz...makes a commanding figure, admitably clear, and catches [Sachs'] humour perhaps better than any other recorded Sachs except Paul Schöffler....for David there is an automatic first choice: Gerhard Unger.... Gerhard Unger had few equals as David...."

- Richard Law, OPERA ON RECORD, Vol. I


----------



## gardibolt

Just finished re-reading all 165 pages of this thread. What a hoot. I wish I had kept track of all the times DarkAngel exhorted us all to buy buy buy. It has to be over 200! We obediently complied, of course.

I really need to keep a list on my phone of what I have and what I don't have since I'm getting to the point I can't remember what Wagner recordings I have and don't have. Either advancing senility (which has the side advantage of making every listen a new discovery) or a sign I have too many Wagner recordings (no! that cannot be!) Half a dozen times I've seen something and thought, oh, I should get that---luckily checking first and finding out I already have it. I did identify a couple things that I don't have that I probably should acquire though, so it wasn't just amusement combing back through this lengthy thread.


----------



## Barbebleu

gardibolt said:


> Just finished re-reading all 165 pages of this thread. What a hoot. I wish I had kept track of all the times DarkAngel exhorted us all to buy buy buy. It has to be over 200! We obediently complied, of course.
> 
> I really need to keep a list on my phone of what I have and what I don't have since I'm getting to the point I can't remember what Wagner recordings I have and don't have. Either advancing senility (which has the side advantage of making every listen a new discovery) or a sign I have too many Wagner recordings (no! that cannot be!) Half a dozen times I've seen something and thought, oh, I should get that---luckily checking first and finding out I already have it. I did identify a couple things that I don't have that I probably should acquire though, so it wasn't just amusement combing back through this lengthy thread.


I have everything I have ever bought catalogued since 1965 and it still hasn't stopped me from duplicating stuff. I now triple check before buying. So far so good!


----------



## Barbebleu

FYI everyone. There's a new Lohengrin available on Opera Depot at 40% off. Florence 1961 with Konya as Lohengrin.


----------



## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> FYI everyone. There's a new Lohengrin available on Opera Depot at 40% off. Florence 1961 with Konya as Lohengrin.


It is in my basket, but I have a couple other items to buy and will wait for a complete 50% off everything sale, on the surface the cast outside of Konya looks less than ideal, but the sound sample with Grace Hoffman's Ortrud is definitely worth exploring me thinks........

****************************************************************

Right now listening to 51 Walkure Act III from re-opening season of Bayreuth, Varnay is electrifying and in radiant voice, the Wotan of Bjorling is played more stern, angry and authorative........I much prefer the more nuanced compassionate Hans Hotter Wotan characterization a couple years later who is conflicted and torn about what to do with his beloved daughter, we can all sympathize with his dilemma since his daughter had the courage to do what he "should" have done but could not......

  

Also I put order in for 51 Siegfried from Presto UK which has a reasonable price now, this will further complete the legendary 51 Ring cycle of the grand re-opening of "new Bayreuth" with Karajan & Knap, *carry on brothers and sisters odin owns ye all *


----------



## DarkAngel

51 Siegfried is vailable on Spotify which I checked out before purchase, very good sound like the Walkure and Gotter......


----------



## DarkAngel

Not sure if I mentioned this one-off 52 Gotterdammerung act 3 before, but a great supplement to your 51 Furtwangler Ring (Pristine XR of course) and the 52 Furtwangler Tristan also with Flagstad/Suthaus........very good sound and cheap price at Amazon USA


----------



## DarkAngel

Maria Jeritza

Note to costume dept, please measure head sizes in advance of opera performance 

Speaking of vintage MET, look at Jeritza decked out for 1926 Turandot:
(I love vintage opera pix, we need a thread for just that)


----------



## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> We will be without the amazing services of Pristine XR for near future as Andrew Rose has had a major website FUBAR, he has preserved the music files but website itself will have to be rebuilt.......a tragic circumstance for historic Wagner collectors
> 
> *Hopefully Chefty's latest order was shipped out *
> 
> Rose still sending weekly email newsletter and has facebook site with latest info and newsletters


Walhalla and The Opera Gods be thanked! My Pristine order arrived so I won't be delayed by the unfortunate FUBAR that has saddled Mr Rose and Co. of late... Will report back once I get into the actual recordings.


----------



## DarkAngel

cheftimmyr said:


> Walhalla and The Opera Gods be thanked! My Pristine order arrived so I won't be delayed by the unfortunate FUBAR that has saddled Mr Rose and Co. of late... Will report back once I get into the actual recordings.


The opera gods have been merciful and protected their devoted one 

I hope Pristine Audio is back soon bigger and better then ever, also need more of those priceless Callas remasters!


----------



## gardibolt

Just got a notification from norpete.com that they have a new Orfeo edition of the 1961 Kempe Bayreuth Ring. Orfeo says, "This recording, available for the first time, has been remastered from the original tapes of the Bavarian Broadcasting Company. What makes this release so unique is its cast, many of whom can be heard giving their débuts at Bayreuth." 13-Orfeo C 928 613Y. (OP3190) Jerome Hines (Wotan), Birgit Nilsson (Brünnhilde), Hans Hopf (Siegfried), Regine Crespin (Sieglinde / Third Norn), Fritz Uhl (Siegmund), Otakar Kraus (Alberich), James Milligan (Der Wanderer), Regina Resnik (Fricka), Gottlob Frick (Hagen/Hunding), Gerhard Stolze (Loge), Thomas Stewart (Donner/Gunther), David Ward (Fasolt), Peter Roth-Ehrang (Fafner), Herold Kraus (Mime), Wilma Schmidt (Freia/Ortlinde/Gutrune), Marga Höffgen(Erda), Ingeborg Felderer (Woglinde/Helmwige/Waldvogel), Elisabeth Steiner (Wellgunde/Grimgerde), Elisabeth Schärtel (Flosshilde / Waltraute), Lilo Brockhaus (Schwertleite), Ruth Hesse (Rossweisse) & Gertraud Hopf (Gerhilde).

I don't recollect seeing this release discussed here.
If it's on Amazon, I don't see it--there's an mp3 version for $128, which is hardly a bargain (the CD version option takes you to the Clemens Krauss 1953 Ring....Amazon can be infuriating). Norpete's price for the Kempe CDs is $80.
I am pretty sure I have a version of this Ring from Opera Depot, but I expect the sound quality of the Orfeo version will be a sizeable upgrade. I believe this is the Ring that Woodduck referenced as having seen way back in this thread, with James Milligan as the Wanderer.


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## DarkAngel

^^^^ Kempe conducted the RING at ROH during the 1950s, in 1960 when he came to Bayreuth some of the ROH singers also came along which add some new voices to Bayreuth cast......

Amazon USA has good price from sellers section for 61 Kempe, I recently got mine from importcds for $68 but currently out of stock from Xmas demand.........(Presto UK $81.45)


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## DarkAngel

^^^^ 61 Kempe features the Uhl/Crespin walsungs performance (siegmund/sieglinde) very powerful intense singing full of vocal color and emotional drama.........there is a real erotic electricity here, Regine does great job previously singing Kundry part at Bayreuth

Brunnhilde is split between Varnay and young Nilsson, her bright luminous tone cuts like a sword with tremendous power that never flags

Wotan is handled by Hines while the Wanderer (in Siegfried) gets Milligan, a memorable exciting performance by the heroic baritone, his only Bayreuth appearance died 4 months later from heart attack

And yes the sound is really very good with typical Bayreuth balance putting emphasis on vocals vs orchestra


----------



## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> ^^^^ 61 Kempe features the Uhl/Crespin walsungs performance (siegmund/sieglinde) very powerful intense singing full of vocal color and emotional drama.........there is a real erotic electricity here, Regine does great job previously singing Kundry part at Bayreuth
> 
> Brunnhilde is split between Varnay and young Nilsson, her bright luminous tone cuts like a sword with tremendous power that never flags
> 
> Wotan is handled by Hines while *the Wanderer (in Siegfried) gets Milligan, a memorable exciting performance by the heroic baritone, his only Bayreuth appearance died 4 months later from heart attack*
> 
> And yes the sound is really very good with typical Bayreuth balance putting emphasis on vocals vs orchestra


Given the scarcity of real heldenbaritons, Milligan's death was a Wagnerian catastrophe. I gather he was well over six feet tall and looked like a god too.


----------



## DarkAngel

Milligan on set 61 Siegfried with director Wolfgang Wagner (grandchild of Richard W)








James Milligan


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## gardibolt

Yeah, have to say he looks like a Norse God to me.


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## SiegendesLicht

DarkAngel said:


> The foundation stone of any 50s Bayreuth Wagner collection, the greatest singers in best sound available (live stereo), the packaging and booklet very nice......each sleeve has unique BW performance photo!


I am listening to Siegfried out of this set, and darn, I want it! I used to think Solti was the best Ring ever, but this is even better. This is architeUtonic. The voices, especially Hans Hotter as Wotan, sound as if they were some kind of natural forces. Sheer controlled barbarism... It is quite expensive though. I will have to ask my fiance to make it a wedding present - give the words "wedding ring" an entire new meaning


----------



## mountmccabe

SiegendesLicht said:


> I am listening to Siegfried out of this set, and darn, I want it! I used to think Solti was the best Ring ever, but this is even better. This is architeUtonic. The voices, especially Hans Hotter as Wotan, sound as if they were some kind of natural forces. Sheer controlled barbarism... It is quite expensive though. I will have to ask my fiance to make it a wedding present - give the words "wedding ring" an entire new meaning


My wife got me tickets to see the Ring in person as an engagement Ring.

She was quite happy to not go herself, though she did stop in the house and was able to see the end of _Das Rheingold_ on the screens in the lobby. And after _Götterdämmerung_, she met me at Valhalla a pub on the walk home from the opera house. [It's still there! This one hasn't burnt down at all].


----------



## cheftimmyr

SiegendesLicht said:


> I am listening to Siegfried out of this set, and darn, I want it! I used to think Solti was the best Ring ever, but this is even better. This is architeUtonic. The voices, especially Hans Hotter as Wotan, sound as if they were some kind of natural forces. Sheer controlled barbarism... It is quite expensive though. I will have to ask my fiance to make it a wedding present - give the words "wedding ring" an entire new meaning


The Testament Ring Cycle (in stereo) was a game changer in my Wagner listening experience. It is worth the expense, Presto U.K. periodically has some nice deals on their testament selections so that might be the place to find a good deal. I feel there's a certain magic in the live recordings that is hard to translate to the studio.

A true gem from the Golden Age!


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## DarkAngel

To those who for even a second hesitate in taking glorious journey to hall of the gods Valhalla, here are the individual CD sleeves for 55 Keilberth Ring boxset plus the two extra operas from 2nd 55 Ring not in the Testament boxset.......you will not regret, essential buy buy buy


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## Admiral

Finally got some space to listen after four months at a new job - queuing up 1958 - oh the sound is glorious!

And, oh yes, ^^^ everyone should own the Testament even if it means beans and rice for a month.


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## SiegendesLicht

No, I do not think it will have to be THAT bad :lol:

I have just listened to Götterdämmerung from the same set on YouTube. What should I say? It is fantastic. The clarity from the orchestra is amazing, I hear things in the music that I have never paid attention to before. Hagen sounds as if he could single-handedly beat up a couple Roman legions. The duet of Siegfried and Brünhilde in the prologue is pure passion. The funeral march is... the best word I can use for it is ruthless - like cold hard steel. And the finale feels as if a tornado has just passed by me. I think I have found the One Ring to rule them all...


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## Admiral

Just picked up a Living Stereo LP of Eileen Farrell singing Wagner - might be interesting


----------



## Azol

It's almost Christmas time!

Ordered!!!

















Has it arrived yet?
Has it arrived yet?
Has it arrived yet?
..... you know the feeling...


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## cheftimmyr

Azol said:


> It's almost Christmas time!
> 
> Ordered!!!
> 
> View attachment 90915
> 
> 
> View attachment 90916
> 
> 
> Has it arrived yet?
> Has it arrived yet?
> Has it arrived yet?
> ..... you know the feeling...


That '53 is dope! All around stupendous cast and conducting! It'll be a Merry Christmas for you!


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## Barbebleu

Azol said:


> It's almost Christmas time!
> 
> Ordered!!!
> 
> View attachment 90915
> 
> 
> View attachment 90916
> 
> 
> Has it arrived yet?
> Has it arrived yet?
> Has it arrived yet?
> ..... you know the feeling...


The Golden Ring is, for me, one of those documentaries that just makes you want to close the doors for fifteen hours and listen to Solti's Ring cycle from the Rhine's first murmurings to its final overwhelming destruction of Valhalla. Quite excellent.


----------



## Bill H.

Hi All, 
It's been awhile since I last posted on this thread, even though I do still lurk on occasion....
Just wanted to let everyone know that over the past year I worked on a completely new from scratch remix of the '53 Krauss Bayreuth Ring. I went back to my source files for this one, using new software for generating equalization and ambience and track splitting. I've also decided to scrap the mp3 files and have done this one in lossless FLAC format, so it will be a bigger file size. This should eliminate any problems with mp3 gaps in playback. But I've still divided the operas into CD-length folders for those who might want to put them on CD-ROMs. Just note that with Siegfried and Götterdämmerung I've split their first Acts into two shorter disk folders, so that Acts Two and Three for each can be written complete onto a single disk. I also was able to restore the opening bars (with the drumroll) in Siegfried that are missing on many past commercial releases.

The download link for the entire cycle is here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByTWd_3f2RpSZTgyZTdkNzAtZDAwZS00YTE5LTllMTctNzk4YjVjMDU3NzMx

After doing this remix, I did some brief comparisons with my copy of the Pristine remastering, and mine is a tad more conservative in its approach, as I didn't try to brighten the sound as much. OTOH, there were some obvious spots in the source files where I tried to reverse some of the dynamic compression inherent in the original sound, though I didn't try to do this across the entire 15+ hours.

In any case, if you don't already own a copy of this justly famous cycle and want to sample it before committing to buying the Pristine or other commercial release, or for any other reason, it's free to download. Let me know if you have any problems or comments. Thanks,

Bill


----------



## cheftimmyr

Barbebleu said:


> The Golden Ring is, for me, one of those documentaries that just makes you want to close the doors for fifteen hours and listen to Solti's Ring cycle from the Rhine's first murmurings to its final overwhelming destruction of Valhalla. Quite excellent.


<sigh> another add to the "buy list".... thx :tiphat:


----------



## Barbebleu

Bill H. said:


> Hi All,
> It's been awhile since I last posted on this thread, even though I do still lurk on occasion....
> Just wanted to let everyone know that over the past year I worked on a completely new from scratch remix of the '53 Krauss Bayreuth Ring. I went back to my source files for this one, using new software for generating equalization and ambience and track splitting. I've also decided to scrap the mp3 files and have done this one in lossless FLAC format, so it will be a bigger file size. This should eliminate any problems with mp3 gaps in playback. But I've still divided the operas into CD-length folders for those who might want to put them on CD-ROMs. Just note that with Siegfried and Götterdämmerung I've split their first Acts into two shorter disk folders, so that Acts Two and Three for each can be written complete onto a single disk. I also was able to restore the opening bars (with the drumroll) in Siegfried that are missing on many past commercial releases.
> 
> The download link for the entire cycle is here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByTWd_3f2RpSZTgyZTdkNzAtZDAwZS00YTE5LTllMTctNzk4YjVjMDU3NzMx
> 
> After doing this remix, I did some brief comparisons with my copy of the Pristine remastering, and mine is a tad more conservative in its approach, as I didn't try to brighten the sound as much. OTOH, there were some obvious spots in the source files where I tried to reverse some of the dynamic compression inherent in the original sound, though I didn't try to do this across the entire 15+ hours.
> 
> In any case, if you don't already own a copy of this justly famous cycle and want to sample it before committing to buying the Pristine or other commercial release, or for any other reason, it's free to download. Let me know if you have any problems or comments. Thanks,
> 
> Bill


Again, much thanks for this Bill. A rather nice Christmas present for us all.


----------



## Barbebleu

My little Christmas treat to myself arrived today. Knappertsbusch's Munich 1963 Lohengrin.


----------



## DarkAngel

Hope hear some impressions of holiday wagner gifts...........keep them coming

*******************************************************************

Doing a bit more reading on Callas and although not a famous wagner singer she was very active in Italy during 1948-50 seasons before later concentrating on Italian bel canto opera, during this period she has complete performances of:

12 - Tristan & Isolde operas
5 - Parsifal operas
6 - Walkure operas (brunnhilde)

Previously I thought she had only a few wagner opera appearances to make ends met during her early years, this is really pretty impressive body of work, more reasons to love Callas! 










Callas as Kundry


----------



## DarkAngel

DarkAngel said:


> *It is in my basket, but I have a couple other items to buy and will wait for a complete 50% off everything sale*, on the surface the cast outside of Konya looks less than ideal, but the sound sample with Grace Hoffman's Ortrud is definitely worth exploring me thinks........


*Right on que, operadepot 50% all items end of year sale, order will be place tomorrow!* 

Did you people know the guy who runs operadepot Andrew Whitfield also is conductor at OSJ - opera San Jose, and that the opera company was started by Irene Dalis who has many great performances at Bayreuth in her resume....


----------



## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> *Right on que, operadepot 50% all items end of year sale, order will be place tomorrow!*
> 
> Did you people know the guy who runs operadepot Andrew Whitfield also is conductor at OSJ - opera San Jose, and that the opera company was started by Irene Dalis who has many great performances at Bayreuth in her resume....


Dalis was underrecorded. Her Kundry is the equal of anyone's.


----------



## DarkAngel

^^^^ Prolific artist with 270+ performances at the MET to her credit, continued her 2nd career as teacher and opera director OSJ upon retirement from professional singing, died 2 years ago but a picture speaks 1000 words.....a positive role model for others to follow

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irene_Dalis


----------



## Barbebleu

I took the plunge today and ordered the Testament '55 Bayreuth 2nd Cycle Gotterdammerung with Modl as Brunnhilde.


----------



## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> I took the plung today and ordered the Testament '55 Bayreuth *2nd Cycle Gotterdammerung *with Modl as Brunnhilde.


A must have just like the regular 55 Ring boxset from Testament, you will not regret! 

I placed order for 8 items yesterday using current 50% sale at operadepot..........

Chefty have you explored the new items received from Pristine XR yet..............


----------



## Barbebleu

Yeah. Just the 2nd cycle Walkure to get now.

What did you order DA?


----------



## DarkAngel

Wagner: Lohengrin - Konya, Meyfarth, Hoffman, Andersson; Ludwig. Firenze, 1961 - CD + (Free) MP3
$10.98 USD
1
$10.98 USD
Verdi: Macbeth - Cappuccilli, Verrett, Ghiaurov, Fr. Tagliavini, Martinucci, Malagù; Abbado. Milano, 1975 - CD + (Free) MP3
$7.48 USD
1
$7.48 USD
Puccini: Tosca - Tebaldi, Di Stefano, Bastianini, Zaccaria; Gavazzeni. La Scala (on tour in Brussels), 1958 - CD + (Free) MP3
$7.48 USD
1
$7.48 USD
Compilation: Leyla Gencer: Sings Verdi - Arias from Attila, Gerusalemme, Ernani, & more - CD + (Free) MP3
$3.98 USD
1
$3.98 USD
Wagner: Parsifal - Windagssen, Dalis, London, Hotter, Böhme; Knapperstbusch. Bayreuth, 1963 - CD + (Free) MP3
$14.48 USD
1
$14.48 USD
Compilation: Antonietta Stella - Arias from Attila, Ernani, Il Trovatore, Forza, Luisa Miller, Tosca & Andrea Chenier - CD + (F
$3.98 USD
1
$3.98 USD
Wagner: Die Walküre - Silja, Adam, Dernesch, Thomas, Hoffman, Greindl; Schippers. Osaka (Bayreuth on tour), 1967 - CD + (Free)
$10.98 USD
1
$10.98 USD
Wagner: Tristan und Isolde - Nilsson, Thomas, Hesse, Wiener, Talvela, Dermota; Böhm. Wien, 1967 - CD + (Free) MP3
$10.98 USD
1
$10.98 USD


*My order from operadepot..........*


----------



## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> Wagner: Lohengrin - Konya, Meyfarth, Hoffman, Andersson; Ludwig. Firenze, 1961 - CD + (Free) MP3
> $10.98 USD
> 1
> $10.98 USD
> Verdi: Macbeth - Cappuccilli, Verrett, Ghiaurov, Fr. Tagliavini, Martinucci, Malagù; Abbado. Milano, 1975 - CD + (Free) MP3
> $7.48 USD
> 1
> $7.48 USD
> Puccini: Tosca - Tebaldi, Di Stefano, Bastianini, Zaccaria; Gavazzeni. La Scala (on tour in Brussels), 1958 - CD + (Free) MP3
> $7.48 USD
> 1
> $7.48 USD
> Compilation: Leyla Gencer: Sings Verdi - Arias from Attila, Gerusalemme, Ernani, & more - CD + (Free) MP3
> $3.98 USD
> 1
> $3.98 USD
> Wagner: Parsifal - Windagssen, Dalis, London, Hotter, Böhme; Knapperstbusch. Bayreuth, 1963 - CD + (Free) MP3
> $14.48 USD
> 1
> $14.48 USD
> Compilation: Antonietta Stella - Arias from Attila, Ernani, Il Trovatore, Forza, Luisa Miller, Tosca & Andrea Chenier - CD + (F
> $3.98 USD
> 1
> $3.98 USD
> Wagner: Die Walküre - Silja, Adam, Dernesch, Thomas, Hoffman, Greindl; Schippers. Osaka (Bayreuth on tour), 1967 - CD + (Free)
> $10.98 USD
> 1
> $10.98 USD
> Wagner: Tristan und Isolde - Nilsson, Thomas, Hesse, Wiener, Talvela, Dermota; Böhm. Wien, 1967 - CD + (Free) MP3
> $10.98 USD
> 1
> $10.98 USD
> 
> 
> *My order from operadepot..........*


DA, I'll probably steal a few recs from that list! Post-holiday commitments are fading and am hoping to be into my Pristine new arrivals soon... will let you know when I make a dent


----------



## damianjb1

cheftimmyr said:


> I post this, as today is the approximate one year anniversary of when I began listening to Wagner. His music (and works in total) has been a gift in my life and requires patience for development, as well as thought to understanding the many layers in his works. The reward of this due diligence is being transported to a world of beauty, darkness, mystery and higher thought.
> 
> I thankfully stumbled onto this forum which has accelerated my Wagner (and operatic) growth as a listener and thinker. To all the kind members who have shared their knowledge, opinions and recommendations, I thank you. The music I have heard, and continue to discover and enjoy, will enrich my life for decades to come.
> 
> I decided to post a discography of what I have listened to in the last year. The majority of the recordings listed are in direct correlation to recommendations from members in this forum and fall in the "historical" category. (Many of the recordings listed I've revisited frequently).
> 
> Ring Cycle:
> 
> Furtwangler '50 La Scala (Pristine Audio)
> Keilberth '52 Bayreuth (Myto)
> Keilberth '53 Bayreuth (Pan Classic; Andromeda)
> Krauss '53 Bayreuth (Pristine Audio)
> Keilberth '55 Bayreuth (Testament)
> Knap '57 Bayreuth (Walhall)
> Kempe '60 Bayreuth (Myto)
> Bohm '66/67 Bayreuth (Decca)
> Haitnik 2008 Studio (EMI)
> 
> Die Walkure:
> -Leinsdorf '40 MET (Pristine)
> 
> Gotterdamerung:
> -Knap '51 Bayreuth (Testament)
> 
> Parsifal:
> Knap '51 Bayreuth (ZYX)
> Krauss '53 Bayreuth (Pristine)
> Knap '61 Bayreuth (Myto)
> Knap '62 Bayreuth (Phillips)
> Kubelik '80 Studio (Arts Archives)
> Barneboim 1991 Studio (TelDec)
> 
> Tristan:
> Bodanzky '37 MET (Immortal Performances)
> HvK '52 Bayreuth (Walhall)
> Furtwangler '52 (EMI)
> Furtwangler '52 London (Pristine Audio)
> Bohm '66 Bayreuth (DG)
> 
> Dutchman:
> Dorati Studio (Decca)
> Knap '54 Bayreuth (ZYX)
> Keilberth '55 (Testament)
> 
> Tannhauser:
> Solti Studio (Decca)
> Sawallisch '61 Bayreuth (Myto)
> 
> Lohengrin:
> Cluytens '58 Bayreuth (Walhall)
> Kempe Studio (EMI)
> Sawallisch Bayreuth (Decca)
> 
> Meistersingers:
> Kubelik '67 Studio (Arts Archives)
> Kempe '64 (Pristine Audio)
> 
> I still have much to listen to and discover, but my first year of Wagner has been extremely rewarding; musically and spiritually! :tiphat:


Wow - that's very impressive.


----------



## damianjb1

"The vorspiel to Act 3, no matter who is conducting, is enthralling and totally forboding to me, and I think an under appreciated (or at least not frequently mentioned) part of the opera".

I'm so glad to hear someone else say this. It's one of my favourite passages in all music.


----------



## cheftimmyr

damianjb1 said:


> "The vorspiel to Act 3, no matter who is conducting, is enthralling and totally forboding to me, and I think an under appreciated (or at least not frequently mentioned) part of the opera".
> 
> I'm so glad to hear someone else say this. It's one of my favourite passages in all music.


Sometimes I just want to have that playing in an unending loop!


----------



## Woodduck

damianjb1 said:


> "The vorspiel to Act 3, no matter who is conducting, is enthralling and totally forboding to me, and I think an under appreciated (or at least not frequently mentioned) part of the opera".
> 
> I'm so glad to hear someone else say this. It's one of my favourite passages in all music.


Act 3 of what.....?


----------



## cheftimmyr

Woodduck said:


> Act 3 of what.....?


Tristan; I recognized my own post (and used this to fill the letter minimum for a post)


----------



## Woodduck

cheftimmyr said:


> Tristan; I recognized my own post (and used this to fill the letter minimum for a post)


Thanks. I figured it had to be either _Tristan_ or _Parsifal._ Both are startling creations that show Wagner probing psychological territory never imagined before (big surprise!). That English horn solo alone is from another planet. Of the _Parsifal, _Wagner said that he felt as if he were reinventing music.


----------



## damianjb1

Woodduck said:


> Act 3 of what.....?


Sorry - Tristan. Definitely Tristan.


----------



## gardibolt

Thanks for the clarification. Whenever someone says Prelude to Act III of a Wagner opera, I automatically go to Meistersinger!


----------



## Faustian

gardibolt said:


> Thanks for the clarification. Whenever someone says Prelude to Act III of a Wagner opera, I automatically go to Meistersinger!


And I thought it may have been directed at Act III of Siegfried, which is another marvel! :lol:


----------



## Woodduck

Well, gosh, anyone for _Lohengrin? Walkure?_ Wagner did have a way with act threes, didn't he?


----------



## SiegendesLicht

And Götterdämmerung. Shorter than some other 3rd acts of his, but unsurpassed in sheer epicness.


----------



## gardibolt

Speaking of historical Meistersingers, Bel Canto Society currently has a sale on its documentary Great Conductors of the Third Reich with a number of performance excerpts, including Furtwängler conducting Meistersinger; marked down to $12.95 from $18.95. It covers other Wagnerians such as Knappertsbusch, Karajan, von Schillings, etc. As I recall it's a pretty good documentary.


----------



## cheftimmyr

At long last I have something to contribute again to this thread, and am hoping to see some more posts in general on this thread.

I have embarked on listening through my latest Pristine Classical order, which I thankfully received before their unfortunate website crash.

I decided to listen to all 3 Toscanini offerings back to back for comparison sake:

"All-Wagner Concert" 1941 (NBC Symphony Orchestra with guests Helen Traubel and Lauritz Melchior)

"Toscanini Conducts The NBC-SO" 1943

"Toscanini's Final La Scala Concert" 1952

It goes without saying now that having sourced these recordings from Pristine, I have no interest in finding alternate releases of said recordings.

Comparing all three recordings I found the 1943 to have the most full and rich audio, which surprised me considering the 1952 from La Scala had approx 10 years of advances in recording technology in its favor. However, the 1952 I found to be on the bottom in terms of audio quality.

Favorite moments from the 1941: Helen Traubel and Lauritz Melchior make this recording a "must" for me. Their Act 1/Scene 3 of Walkure made for divine listening, as did Traubel's "Dich, Teurel Halle" from Tannhauser. Also the commentary from Samuel Chotzniff was very cool to hear.

(For more information on this recording I urge you to read Mr. Rose's comments http://archive.constantcontact.com/fs142/1104014358705/archive/1117230911492.html )

Favorite Moments from 1943: 
I found the Tristan Prelude & Liebstod here to be the most emotionally moving and engaging of the 3 versions I heard total. The Act 3 Meistersinger Vorspiel was likewise moving and lovely to hear in a concert setting. Finally, the Tannhauser Overture was phenomenal.

Highlights from 1952: 
Forest Murmurs, Good Friday music and Siegfried Funeral March were all standouts from the 2 discs of Toscanini's final La Scala concert.

Hopefully this is a good overview for anyone interested in these recordings.


----------



## DarkAngel

^^^ I am waiting to hear your take on the Pristine XR potted studio Ring......

Facebook posts from Andrew Rose indicate at least another month to re-open, he is doing a complete re-design of website with added improved features not available before, the wagner (and Callas) faithful patiently wait....


----------



## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> ^^^ I am waiting to hear your take on the Pristine XR potted studio Ring......
> 
> Facebook posts from Andrew Rose indicate at least another month to re-open, he is doing a complete re-design of website with added improved features not available before, the wagner (and Callas) faithful patiently wait....


The Potted Ring will follow Muck's Complete Parsifal Recordings and Act 1 of Die Walkure (Bruno Walter)... some good things in the pipeline! At least I can't spend more $$$$$ while Pristine retools.


----------



## Bill H.

Just wanted to notify you fellow listeners that at the request of an internet friend, I've been playing around with my own remix of the "Parsifal" from Bayreuth, 1953 conducted by Clemens Krauss. As many of you know, this famous performance has many of the same performers that were in the Knappertsbusch Parsifals of the same period, and features Ramon Vinay in the title role, with Martha Mödl in what may have been one of her most inspired performances as Kundry.

The source files were an mp3 download (at an excellent bitrate) I purchased but whose provenance wasn't from one of the labels well known to us. I manually removed the mp3 gaps between the tracks and re-located some of the track splits. The equalization has also been reworked, and and the acoustic made to be a little less boxy sounding mono. There were some audible alterations in volume that I tried to compensate, some more successfully than others.

Overall, the result is something I'm pleased enough with to want to post here, though it should be noted that this recording has its fair share of audience and stage noises, not to mention the prompter being audible more frequently than I've heard in other Bayreuth radio transcriptions. Nevertheless, it's a transcendent performance (with quite a bit of color and drama in Act II), and moves along more swiftly than the typical Kna ones, coming in at just a few minutes under four hours.

Of course, the Pristine Audio remaster is going to be superior in overall sound, not to mention Mr. Rose can do a nice job of excising many of the audience and stage noises that I'm not able to. But since the Pristine website is still not up, and if you're curious about this famous performance, you can always try this free one before you decide whether to go for the Pristine release. Here's the download link (note the files are in lossless FLAC format, and it's a big one at 897 MB):

EDIT--I just found that there is a problem with the upload, in the Act III files...will have to correct and reupload--once the problem is fixed, I'll re-post the download link.
My apologies!!

EDIT2--A new upload seems to have corrected the problem, I've done a test download and the Act III files seem to be OK now. Do let me know if you run into any issues. Here's the link:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByTWd_3f2RpSa0U3RWxVT0ZobU0


----------



## gardibolt

cheftimmyr said:


> At long last I have something to contribute again to this thread, and am hoping to see some more posts in general on this thread.
> 
> I have embarked on listening through my latest Pristine Classical order, which I thankfully received before their unfortunate website crash.
> 
> I decided to listen to all 3 Toscanini offerings back to back for comparison sake:
> 
> "All-Wagner Concert" 1941 (NBC Symphony Orchestra with guests Helen Traubel and Lauritz Melchior)
> 
> "Toscanini Conducts The NBC-SO" 1943
> 
> "Toscanini's Final La Scala Concert" 1952
> 
> It goes without saying now that having sourced these recordings from Pristine, I have no interest in finding alternate releases of said recordings.
> 
> Comparing all three recordings I found the 1943 to have the most full and rich audio, which surprised me considering the 1952 from La Scala had approx 10 years of advances in recording technology in its favor. However, the 1952 I found to be on the bottom in terms of audio quality.
> 
> Favorite moments from the 1941: Helen Traubel and Lauritz Melchior make this recording a "must" for me. Their Act 1/Scene 3 of Walkure made for divine listening, as did Traubel's "Dich, Teurel Halle" from Tannhauser. Also the commentary from Samuel Chotzniff was very cool to hear.
> 
> (For more information on this recording I urge you to read Mr. Rose's comments http://archive.constantcontact.com/fs142/1104014358705/archive/1117230911492.html )
> 
> Favorite Moments from 1943:
> I found the Tristan Prelude & Liebstod here to be the most emotionally moving and engaging of the 3 versions I heard total. The Act 3 Meistersinger Vorspiel was likewise moving and lovely to hear in a concert setting. Finally, the Tannhauser Overture was phenomenal.
> 
> Highlights from 1952:
> Forest Murmurs, Good Friday music and Siegfried Funeral March were all standouts from the 2 discs of Toscanini's final La Scala concert.
> 
> Hopefully this is a good overview for anyone interested in these recordings.


Yeah, Pristine did an exceptionally nice job on those 1941 and 1943 Toscanini recordings. They sound terrific.


----------



## Barbebleu

Bill H. said:


> Just wanted to notify you fellow listeners that at the request of an internet friend, I've been playing around with my own remix of the "Parsifal" from Bayreuth, 1953 conducted by Clemens Krauss. As many of you know, this famous performance has many of the same performers that were in the Knappertsbusch Parsifals of the same period, and features Ramon Vinay in the title role, with Martha Mödl in what may have been one of her most inspired performances as Kundry.
> 
> The source files were an mp3 download (at an excellent bitrate) I purchased but whose provenance wasn't from one of the labels well known to us. I manually removed the mp3 gaps between the tracks and re-located some of the track splits. The equalization has also been reworked, and and the acoustic made to be a little less boxy sounding mono. There were some audible alterations in volume that I tried to compensate, some more successfully than others.
> 
> Overall, the result is something I'm pleased enough with to want to post here, though it should be noted that this recording has its fair share of audience and stage noises, not to mention the prompter being audible more frequently than I've heard in other Bayreuth radio transcriptions. Nevertheless, it's a transcendent performance (with quite a bit of color and drama in Act II), and moves along more swiftly than the typical Kna ones, coming in at just a few minutes under four hours.
> 
> Of course, the Pristine Audio remaster is going to be superior in overall sound, not to mention Mr. Rose can do a nice job of excising many of the audience and stage noises that I'm not able to. But since the Pristine website is still not up, and if you're curious about this famous performance, you can always try this free one before you decide whether to go for the Pristine release. Here's the download link (note the files are in lossless FLAC format, and it's a big one at 897 MB):
> 
> EDIT--I just found that there is a problem with the upload, in the Act III files...will have to correct and reupload--once the problem is fixed, I'll re-post the download link.
> My apologies!!
> 
> EDIT2--A new upload seems to have corrected the problem, I've done a test download and the Act III files seem to be OK now. Do let me know if you run into any issues. Here's the link:
> 
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByTWd_3f2RpSa0U3RWxVT0ZobU0


On behalf of us all, thanks for this Bill.


----------



## SixFootScowl

I already posted this elsewhere, but it really belongs in the Historical Recordings thread. I notice that the thread includes discussion of the Sawallisch 1968 Roma radio-broadcast ring, and I found a location where you can stream it with pretty good sound quality. So, here it is:

This one from 1968 live performance. I have listened a little and this one really excites me!

If you open the four links given in this page there is a streaming link for each opera and you can listen to all of it.

MYTO had released it once upon a time and there are a few copies out on Amazon for exorbitant prices, but the listings at least show the album covers for the four operas:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BLI5D2
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BLI5DC
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000C1OZ12
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000C1OZ1C


----------



## Barbebleu

Florestan said:


> I already posted this elsewhere, but it really belongs in the Historical Recordings thread. I notice that the thread includes discussion of the Sawallisch 1968 Roma radio-broadcast ring, and I found a location where you can stream it with pretty good sound quality. So, here it is:
> 
> This one from 1968 live performance. I have listened a little and this one really excites me!
> 
> If you open the four links given in this page there is a streaming link for each opera and you can listen to all of it.
> 
> MYTO had released it once upon a time and there are a few copies out on Amazon for exorbitant prices, but the listings at least show the album covers for the four operas:
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BLI5D2
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BLI5DC
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000C1OZ12
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000C1OZ1C


Flo - I responded to your post on the other thread with a link to Operadepot who have this a lot cheaper.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Oh, by the way, just for curiosity sake, here is an older Sawallisch Ring opera. I don't know that this one has recordings for the complete ring, but with the one I posted above, who need it?


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> Yeah, Pristine did an exceptionally nice job on those 1941 and 1943 Toscanini recordings. They sound terrific.


Toscanini is not what many would consider an ideal wagner conductor, his strict tempos and adherence to the written score is in direct contrast to Furtwanglers "german school" of conducting which allows music to organically develop as a live experience with more freedom......it is more likely this was Richard W preference as there is unbroken chain of training from conductors performing opera supervised by Wagner and Furtwangler


----------



## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> Toscanini is not what many would consider an ideal wagner conductor, his strict tempos and adherence to the written score is in direct contrast to Furtwanglers "german school" of conducting which allows music to organically develop as a live experience with more freedom......it is more likely this was Richard W preference as there is unbroken chain of training from conductors performing opera supervised by Wagner and Furtwangler


Agreed, DA... though, as a Wagner rookie continuing my quest I am glad to have the recordings in my library via the Pristine-treatment. I did notice that Melchior's trademark, usually-elongated "Walse" was the shortest I've heard on recording thus far... I can imagine the Maestro telling him prior to the performance "If you hold it, I'm gonna keep going and leave you in the dust!" (or something to that effect)... :lol:


----------



## gardibolt

Barbebleu said:


> Flo - I responded to your post on the other thread with a link to Operadepot who have this a lot cheaper.


I have both the Myto and the Opera Depot versions of the 1968 Sawallisch Ring, and the Myto sound quality is MUCH better, unsurprisingly. norpete.com had a few of the Myto CDs for the individual operas for a pretty reasonable price last time I checked, but I don't know if they still have any. It's a very good performance, though.


----------



## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> Toscanini is not what many would consider an ideal wagner conductor, his strict tempos and adherence to the written score is in direct contrast to Furtwanglers "german school" of conducting which allows music to organically develop as a live experience with more freedom......it is more likely this was Richard W preference as there is unbroken chain of training from conductors performing opera supervised by Wagner and Furtwangler


And yet Toscanini was a great conductor of Wagner, and some of his recordings are superb. We can only wonder, listening to some of the old conductor's notoriously urgent tempi, about that _Parsifal_ he conducted at Bayreuth, which clocked in at four hours and forty-two minutes - the slowest traversal on record. Contemporary reviews praised it, but we have to speculate that Wagner might have had some objections, given that Hermann Levi, under the composer's supervision, took only 4'4" (which, btw, is very close to the 4'10" of Knappertsbusch in his 1962 recording). Fascinating web site here:

http://www.wagneropera.net/bayreuth/conductors-bayreuth-parsifal.htm


----------



## DarkAngel

^^^^ great story from Levi about conducting Parsifal at Bayreuth and having Richard W come up to conduct the last act in person, with audience going hysterical......the master put's his stamp on the definitive Parsifal performance

and then to see the unbroken chain (except 53) of Knap's unquestioned Parsifal mastery at Bayreuth from 1951-64


----------



## SixFootScowl

gardibolt said:


> I have both the Myto and the Opera Depot versions of the 1968 Sawallisch Ring, and the Myto sound quality is MUCH better, unsurprisingly. norpete.com had a few of the Myto CDs for the individual operas for a pretty reasonable price last time I checked, but I don't know if they still have any. It's a very good performance, though.


A shame MYTO does not re-release this one.


----------



## Barbebleu

gardibolt said:


> I have both the Myto and the Opera Depot versions of the 1968 Sawallisch Ring, and the Myto sound quality is MUCH better, unsurprisingly. norpete.com had a few of the Myto CDs for the individual operas for a pretty reasonable price last time I checked, but I don't know if they still have any. It's a very good performance, though.


My Opera Depot copy is pretty good so your MYTO copy must be really exceptional.  I, of course being postally challenged, living a long way from America, have the download version and it's really very acceptable.


----------



## SixFootScowl

gardibolt said:


> I have both the Myto and the Opera Depot versions of the 1968 Sawallisch Ring, and the Myto sound quality is MUCH better, unsurprisingly. norpete.com had a few of the Myto CDs for the individual operas for a pretty reasonable price last time I checked, but I don't know if they still have any. It's a very good performance, though.


Would you be able to check the streaming links I posted and tell me how they compare to OD and Myto?


----------



## howlingfantods

DarkAngel said:


> Toscanini is not what many would consider an ideal wagner conductor, his strict tempos and adherence to the written score is in direct contrast to Furtwanglers "german school" of conducting which allows music to organically develop as a live experience with more freedom......it is more likely this was Richard W preference as there is unbroken chain of training from conductors performing opera supervised by Wagner and Furtwangler


And yet, Wagner fandom for much of the recorded era was dominated by recordings by conductors in the Toscanini line like Solti and Karajan. It's interesting to speculate on how the performance practice might have been very different had many of the greatest Wagnerians in the first days of the LP not been tainted by their associations with the Third Reich.


----------



## gardibolt

Florestan said:


> Would you be able to check the streaming links I posted and tell me how they compare to OD and Myto?


Florestan, I checked the Vorspiel to Siegfried from the links you provided at Opera Today, and it's almost identical to the Myto disc (a little louder, perhaps). Definitely it's better than the Opera Depot version. I suspect the stream is probably a rip of Myto's disc, or at least they're both from the same source, most likely a radio station tape. The Opera Depot version sounds like it was taped off an AM radio by a listener and is much inferior to both.


----------



## SixFootScowl

gardibolt said:


> Florestan, I checked the Vorspiel to Siegfried from the links you provided at Opera Today, and it's almost identical to the Myto disc (a little louder, perhaps). Definitely it's better than the Opera Depot version. I suspect the stream is probably a rip of Myto's disc, or at least they're both from the same source, most likely a radio station tape. The Opera Depot version sounds like it was taped off an AM radio by a listener and is much inferior to both.


Thanks. I did think the stream sounded pretty good. While Opera Depot often gives sound clips, I say buyer beware.


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## Pugg

Opera depot: A New Ring Cycle!

Wagner: Der Ring des Nibelungen - Flagstad, Svanholm, Lorenz, Frantz, Weber, Treptow, H. Konetzni; Furtwängler. Milano, 1950
$29.97 - $50.97


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## SixFootScowl

Found an historic Ring cycle that is 18 disks (3 for Rhinegold and 5 each for the other three operas--slow tempos perhaps). Wonder if anyone here has heard of it? It is listed for sale at this site, but if it sells presumably the listing will be taken down, so I copied much of the information below (bold emphasis is in the original):



> Vienna State Opera Chorus
> Vienna Symphony Orchestra
> Rudolf Moralt
> Recorded: 1948/1949
> Centurion Classics IECC 18001
> CDs manufactured in the EU in 2005
> 
> Das Rheingold
> Ferdinand Frantz, Alfred Poell, Willy Friedrich, Julius Pölzer, Adolf Vogel, William Wernigk, Marjan Rus, Herbert Alsen, Elisabeth Höngen, Ilona Steingruber, Rosette Anday, Ester Rethy, Martha Rohs, Sieglinde Wagner
> 
> Die Walküre
> Günther Treptow, Hilde Konetzni, Ferdinand Frantz, Helena Braun, Herbert Alsen, Rosette Anday, Judith Hellwig, Ester Rethy, Rosette Anday, Alice Ostrowsky, Ilona Steingruber, Gertrude Burgstaller-Schuster, Dagmar Hermann, Else Schürhoff
> 
> Siegfried
> Günther Treptow, William Wernigk, Ferdinand Frantz, Adolf Vogel, Herbert Alsen, Gertrude Grob-Prandl, Rosette Anday, Ruthilde Boesch
> 
> Götterdämmerung
> Günther Treptow, Karl Kamann, Adolf Vogel, Ludwig Weber, Gertrude Grob-Prandl, Hilde Konetzni, Judith Hellwig, Rosette Anday, Elisabeth Rutgers, Martha Rohs, Sieglinde Wagner, Georgine von Milinkovic, Erich Majkut, Harald Pröglhöf
> 
> ...most of the sound quality is acceptable but in view of the singing and casting, the lack of some of this quality is a price well worth paying. There are too many wonderful performances to list them all but special menntion must be made of Treptow who sings his way through both Siegmund and Siegfried. Franz's Wotan is, in our mind, the best of all his versions on disc. Moralt's conducting is dramatic and atmospheric with plenty of attention to detail.
> ...
> The engineers on this set must have thought that they were playing with sound Lego. There are bits missing. You will hear the odd electronic noise (mobile phone?) and some voice additions. The piecing together of the sides and cues is very poor. All in all the technicians appear to be total idiots who should never, ever, work in a recording studio ever again. Another pain is that there is no cast listing.... *You have been warned*. Having said all that, this is still a set worth investigating.


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## Barbebleu

Florestan said:


> Found an historic Ring cycle that is 18 disks (3 for Rhinegold and 5 each for the other three operas--slow tempos perhaps). Wonder if anyone here has heard of it? It is listed for sale at this site, but if it sells presumably the listing will be taken down, so I copied much of the information below (bold emphasis is in the original):


I have this and have listened to it. The quirks aside, it is excellent and both the singing and conducting are exceptional.


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## DarkAngel

^^^^ Many red flags for that Moralt Ring on a CD label nobody has ever heard of, when the seller warns you the sound is not good in description best to believe them (they are trying to be as positive as possible to make sale) also the strange CD layout another red flag....

On the same website they are also selling the well known Myto label version and say the sound is very good here, be very careful! Most people here have purchased the Myto version

http://classicalmusicselloff.weebly.com/store/p885/Wagner/Götterdãmmerung_-_VSO/Moralt.html

Chefty will report soon on his potted Ring..........:angel:


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## kineno

The edition I have is the Gebhardt. The sound is just fine, as I remember. Grob-Prandl's Brünnhilde (she's only in Siegfried and Götterdämmerung) is quite magnificent!


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## Bill H.

Another download announcement--those of you who have the "Wagner at the Met" Big Box, are likely well acquainted with the Götterdämmerung from 1936, featuring Lauritz Melchior, Marjorie Lawrence, and Friedrich Schorr, with Artur Bodanzky conducting (IIRC, this is the only recording available of the entire opera, cuts excepted, with Melchior as Siegfried). You are also probably aware of how primitive the sound is, to the point of being damn near (to me) unlistenable at times. For curiosity sake I tried to see what would happen if I took a rip of that recording and played around with equalization and ambience, not to mention some tries at lessening the disk crackle and "frying bacon" sound in the background. I have not listened to the Naxos release of this performance, so I have no basis to make any sort of comparison with Ward Marston's transcription.

In any case, this is no minimalist transcription, but a pretty drastic intervention with the sound quality, especially with regard to giving more heft/weight to the orchestra, and more of what my mind feels that Melchior sounded like, based on other recordings. As such I'm OK with how it turned out, as I can now hear things that aren't very obvious on the original CDs. But by no means is this "hi-fi", and you are still going to be exposed to most of the original source disk noise and the sometimes jarring differences in noise quality between disks, though hopefully all this will be a bit mitigated for your ears.

These are lossless FLAC files. The complete opera is an 800 MB zipped download, and is available here:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByTWd_3f2RpSNlRLQVBQdHl1eHM

If you don't want a file this large, but are still curious about how it sounds, here's a smaller zip of Act III only (245 MB):

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByTWd_3f2RpSOENNQ3RiaDB6REU

If anyone does give these a listen, please do provide me your comments on the sound, either in this Forum or backchannel. Thanks for listening!


----------



## Barbebleu

Thanks again Bill.


----------



## gardibolt

The edition of the Moralt I have is the Myto, it's quite good, and the sound is surprisingly effective for 1949.


----------



## howlingfantods

My Moralt is the Gebhardt. Good clear mono sound quality, and an excellent second tier Cycle, one I like more than most of the 50's Rings that tend to get more attention and adulation around these parts.

This was the first complete and uncut Ring to be recorded. It was performed one act at a time in more or less "live" conditions for recordings, with Furtwangler in attendance who then swiped the idea of one act at a time for his 1953 RAI recording.


----------



## DarkAngel

howlingfantods said:


> *My Moralt is the Gebhardt.* Good clear mono sound quality, and an excellent second tier Cycle, one I like more than most of the 50's Rings that tend to get more attention and adulation around these parts.
> 
> This was the first complete and uncut Ring to be recorded. It was performed one act at a time in more or less "live" conditions for recordings, with Furtwangler in attendance who then swiped the idea of one act at a time for his 1953 RAI recording.


Did you mention before that Furtwangler was impressed with hearing Ferdinand Frantz's Wotan and recruited him for the 50 Scala Ring with Flagstad?


----------



## howlingfantods

DarkAngel said:


> Did you mention before that Furtwangler was impressed with hearing Ferdinand Frantz's Wotan and recruited him for the 50 Scala Ring with Flagstad?


I think Treptow was the one Furtwangler hadn't heard of before--he did both parts of Siegfried and Siegmund for Moralt, and Furt recruited him as the Siegmund for his La Scala Ring. Personally I find him good but a little odd in his vocal production--he often sounds like he's strangling.


----------



## Woodduck

howlingfantods said:


> I think Treptow was the one Furtwangler hadn't heard of before--he did both parts of Siegfried and Siegmund for Moralt, and Furt recruited him as the Siegmund for his La Scala Ring. Personally I find him good but a little odd in his vocal production--he often sounds like he's strangling.


Treptow is a fine Tristan in the live 1950 Munich performance with Helena Braun under Knappertsbusch. Nobody talks about that recording (admittedly not terrific sounding) but it's pretty darn good and worth having. It gives the lie to the idea that Kna was a "ponderous" Wagnerian.


----------



## DarkAngel

^^^^ Agreed I got this several months ago very good performance, I think this is the only Knap conducted complete Tristan recording available, Amazon has good price and the Andromeda label has good sound (ignore Amazon comments to the contrary)

Treptow would sing the Siegfried role for 1951-52 Bayreuth Rings until young Wolfgang Windgassen made his mark in 1953 and owned the role at Bayreuth for many years to come


----------



## Barbebleu

Woodduck said:


> Treptow is a fine Tristan in the live 1950 Munich performance with Helena Braun under Knappertsbusch. Nobody talks about that recording (admittedly not terrific sounding) but it's pretty darn good and worth having. It gives the lie to the idea that Kna was a "ponderous" Wagnerian.


Treptow is very underrated and when you hear what passes for a Wagnerian tenor nowadays he is a positive giant!


----------



## Itullian

Worth getting? :tiphat:


----------



## Azol

I am first time through Kleiberth's Ring of 1953 (Pan Classics) - finishing Das Rheingold at the moment.









Strange thing is - while this is definitely a mono recording, but the sound is not monophonic - voices pushed to the left and some reverb/bass instruments "spill over" to the right channel.

I wonder if this is an example of "fake stereo" - I am sure many on this forum know this exact recording very well.

On the other hand, the sound is surprisingly good - you wish some live opera recordings of 1980s would sound as good as the 1953 one.


----------



## DarkAngel

^^^^ 53 Keilberth does have great mono sound, the only stereo recordings from Bayreuth festival in 1950s are from 1955 season on Testament label CD sets......many of the 1950s Bayreuth Rings have great mono sound on latest Walhall and Myto remaster releases

53 Keilberth has same main cast as 53 Krauss except Modl replaces Varnay as Brunnhilde, for perfectionists we discussed earlier in this thread Siegfried Act 1 is actually from Krauss Ring......the original Keilberth version must be lost or badly damaged

A great great value at bargain price, this could encourage more buying right...........the opera gods command it!


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Worth getting? :tiphat:


Performance wise of course it is worth it, cost wise you will have to pay up for better booklet and package, Orfeo may have just slightly better sound than 61 Myto label but very close for me (I have heard and own both)

My favorite Kempe Bayreuth Ring overall is the 1960 Myto, note some new cast members at Bayreuth that Kempe recruited from his ROH Wagner Rings in 1950s.......


----------



## Barbebleu

Don't you wish that the Bayreuth Ring of the fifties had been filmed? I would have loved to have seen any of Wieland's fifties productions.


----------



## Woodduck

Barbebleu said:


> Don't you wish that the Bayreuth Ring had been filmed? I would have loved to have seen any of Wieland's fifties productions.


Me too. Although there are numerous still photos of Wieland's groundbreaking productions, what there's very little of is footage showing us the dynamics of how his singers acted and interacted. Singers felt that he brought out the best in them. I found this page

http://www.wagneroperas.com/indexwielandwagner.html

that provides a few glimpses of him working in rehearsal. My favorite moment is toward the end of the second clip, where we get to see Gustav Neidlinger as Alberich - not singing his words, but acting them vividly. He must have been as fantastic to see as to hear in the part.


----------



## Bill H.

As promised in another thread, I tried a hand at remixing the 1940 Met *Walküre*, the one with Leinsdorf conducting and featuring Flagstad, Lawrence, Melchior, List, and Huehn, using the Met release as the baseline material. In some ways this is even dimmer sounding in its commercially released form than the noisy 1936 Met Götterdämmerung--I found almost no high frequency response above 4 kHz, and there are spliced-in portions here and there with even noticeably worse sound quality. Add to that some poor original mike placement (nearly inaudible stage voices or too prominent low brass/timpani), and what overall appears to be dimmer audio quality throughout Act III, and my approximate solution is just that, though I do find it easier for my ears to take in the magnificence of the performances, with more body to the sound. Of course, it's all done to my taste, so it's not necessarily what anybody else would do with it, but anyone who is interested is invited to try it out for themselves--no promises of Pristine level restoration, but perhaps it can do until his website is back up, or if you're on a budget. It's in lossless FLAC format, the zip is about 615 MB (let me know backchannel if you would rather hear some samples), and can be downloaded here:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByTWd_3f2RpSUElmZmstSHVIYlU

Based on what I learned with this effort, I may go back and do some adjustments to the Götterdämmerung as well. If you want, check back on that one after the weekend.


----------



## Barbebleu

Bill H. said:


> As promised in another thread, I tried a hand at remixing the 1940 Met *Walküre*, the one with Leinsdorf conducting and featuring Flagstad, Lawrence, Melchior, List.


Again Bill, for this release, much thanks!


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## Barbebleu

Just finished the '53 Bayreuth Parsifal. Very nice with some caveats. Krauss very good with a nice feel for the pace. Weber excellent as Gurnemanz, London pretty powerful as Amfortas if a touch grainy, Uhde immense as Klingsor. Greindl makes something of the small part of Titurel. Caveats - Mōdl is a bit squally and unmusical as Kundry. I've heard her better. Vinay doesn't really get going until Act 3 and isn't in his best voice which is a shame because his Tristan from that year is excellent. All in all a fair Parsifal for Bayreuth but there are three or four better from the fifties at Bayreuth.


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## DarkAngel

^^^ It helps to have the Pristine XR version for best sound, one of the fastest total timings......


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## OperaChic

While I'm patiently waiting for Pristine Classical's new website to be up, I was listening to my copy of the 1990 EMI mastering of the 1953 Furtwängler RAI Ring and I was struck by how murky the sound is compared to the 1948/49 Moralt Ring on Myto. So I was wondering if anyone has heard the Pristine remastering of the '53 RAI Ring and can tell me if the improvement would be worth the purchase when the site is back up.


----------



## SixFootScowl

A remarkable historic ring has recently been reissued (2013) and has excellent sound. While not historic in the sense of being 50 or more years old (though close as it was recorded in 1968), it is historic in the context of it's recording situation:



> Hans Swarowsky's Ring cycle was finally issued in the UK in 1972, three years after it was hastily recorded in Nuremberg just before the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia (the home of the orchestral players, from the Czech PO and Prague National Theatre).


 Source.










I just got this Ring and have only listened to Rheingold and the first disk of Walkure, but am very excited about it and can hardly wait to continue listening tonight. There are many great reviews on the Swarowsky (a.k.a. Volkswagen) Ring (bold text my emphasis):



> the best budget category Ring cycle, which is the one from Hans Swarowsky. You can tell on every page that you are in the company of a supremely intelligent Wagner interpreter with his own interesting ideas. Even when you don't agree with him, you can see exactly why he is doing it, and you respect him greatly for it. *Even the Prelude to Act III of die Walküre (the so call Ride of the Valkyries) is better than Solti *- real rhythmic impetus, forward flow, and structure rather than just bumbling along with bombastically bloated brass.


 Source.



> This was only the second complete Ring to be recorded in the stereo, and it's pretty damn good. Tenor Gerald McKee doubles Siegmund and Siegfried. He is better in the later role, singing with force in Act I and surprising tenderness in the forest scene. Details come out, like when Siegfried mocks Mime's cradle-song in Act II of Siegfried. Mr. McKee even navigates that nasty, tenor-killing octave drop in Act II of Götterdämmerung. Bass-baritone Rolf Polke is a forceful, authoritative Wotan, passionate in the Farewell and at his best in the Wanderer scenes from Siegfried.
> 
> Naděžda Kniplová may not be a household Valkyrie name like Birgit Nilsson or Hildegard Behrens, but she is a competent, entertaining Brunnhilde, who sang the role for Herbert von Karajan at Salzburg in 1967. The Czech soprano brings it all to the table, with firm high notes and only a little vibrato. She finds the poetry in "Heil dir Sonne" and soars through the Immolation Scene. Better yet, the lady knows how to act and convey pitch-perfect emotion with her instrument. The Gods, Nibelungs and Gibichungs are stocked with solid talent from a roster of German and Czech singers.
> 
> Swarowsky finds lyric poetry in Wagner's string tremolos and woodwind writing that so many other conductors miss. All the harmonic complexity of the Ride of the Valkyries comes out, with the bass trumpet and trombones forward in the mix, right next to the shrieking warrior maidens. He also knows how to control tempo and flow, urging the orchestra forward in the prelude to Act III of Siegfried, but slowing down to reflect in Wotan's Farewell, the Magic Fire music (played with great clarity) and Siegfried's Funeral Music.


 Source and photos of the unique original LP covers, which will reveal why someone affectionately called it the "Volkswagen Ring".



> Nadezda Kniplova was used by Karajan in Salzburg during the previous year, and proves a squally but impassioned Brunnhilde; Gerald McKee is a forceful Siegfried and Rolf Polke a commanding Wotan. Ruth Hesse sings Fricka, Fritz Uhl is Loge (both were old hands at Bayreuth), but what makes the set more or less indispensable is Swarowsky's vital conducting. True, the orchestra is thinner in tone than, say, the Vienna Philharmonic (being essentially a "scratch band", it would be), but low brass are both powerful and secure, rhythms forceful and climaxes expertly gauged. Try Rheingold's "Descent to Nibelheim", the First and Third Act Preludes to Die Walkure (*there's not a better "Ride of the Valkyries" on disc*), the Second and Third Act Preludes to Siegfried (the latter complete with climactic thunder-claps) or Hagen summoning the Vassals in the second act of Gotterdammerung.
> 
> With so little time to hand, singers, players and conductor opted to "go for broke" and the results send electric shock waves through a score that habitually suffers soggy rhythms and indulgent overstatement. *Swarowsky's motto was that "the composer interprets himself, and don't you do anything to help him*".
> 
> Don't expect sonic refinement (although the recording has impressive realism) or "glamorous" vocals, but *the drama grabs you in a way that it doesn't with at least two full-price digital Rings that I can think of*.


 Source.

So, I think we have here a historic ring that every Ring fan should have (and they are available new at reasonable prices). There is a great vocal clarity in this ring. Here are *sound clips* so you can sample it.

Also Swarowsky was a remarkable conductor with a lot of connections to great conductors and even the teacher of several great conductors. Here is a bio of Hans Swarowsky for those interested.


----------



## DarkAngel

OperaChic said:


> While I'm patiently waiting for Pristine Classical's new website to be up, I was listening to my copy of the 1990 EMI mastering of the 1953 Furtwängler RAI Ring and I was struck by how murky the sound is compared to the 1948/49 Moralt Ring on Myto. So I was wondering if anyone has heard the Pristine remastering of the '53 RAI Ring and can tell me if the improvement would be worth the purchase when the site is back up.


 53 RAI Ring
















54 studio VPO

Yes the 53 RAI Ring sounds better on Pristine XR Ring (ambient stereo) for me with all the usual Pristine strong points, even more dramatic improvement with the 50 La Scala Ring Pristine XR, this is a near miracle audio transformation!

Also do supplement with studio 54 Walkure VPO which is first of planned studio Ring cut short by death of Furtwangler 

The Myto Moralt Ring starts out shaky and improves in sound quality after Rheingold, last 3 operas are very good for commercial CDs of that age............


----------



## DarkAngel

> I just got this Ring and have only listened to Rheingold and the first disk of Walkure, but am very excited about it and can hardly wait to continue listening tonight. There are many great reviews on the Swarowsky (a.k.a. Volkswagen) Ring (bold text my emphasis):


For budget price could be worth checking out, heavy hitter Rings were around in the late 1960s Solti, Karajan, Bohm that made this hard to grab attention.......Kniplova (brunnhilde) I recognize from Karajan Salzburg Rings and I think some Bayreuth appearances


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## Barbebleu

I wonder if Bill H. is likely to fix his forensic gaze on the '53 Furtwangler Ring any time soon?


----------



## SixFootScowl

DarkAngel said:


> For budget price could be worth checking out, heavy hitter Rings were around in the late 1960s Solti, Karajan, Bohm that made this hard to grab attention.......Kniplova (brunnhilde) I recognize from Karajan Salzburg Rings and I think some Bayreuth appearances


True. This would have been easily passed up for other Rings at the time, probably moreso with the corny cover art. Then it sat in relative obscurity with a couple releases over the years including a download release with mixed up order.

The 2013 release is nicely packaged in a clamshell box but uses plain white window sleeves--glued shut! I replaced them with nice colored windows sleeves and no glue. There are no librettos, but it includes (as I recall from reading it last night) a discussion of Wagner's development of the Ring, a discussion of Swarowsky, and a discussion of the recording session. It also includes track lists and cast lists for all the operas which are pretty consistent. In a cursory review, the only names I saw changed were for the Rhinemaidens, with one singer being a different Rhinemaiden in Gotterdammerung than in Rheingold (or a typo), and two being replaced.

BTW, I think Barbebleu mentioned this Ring in this thread in 2015 and that he got the Lohengrin that was recorded right after the Ring, but the Lohengrin had a lot of disruptions due to boarder closings/opening and fleeing singers during the occupation, which fortunately happened after the Ring was completed.


----------



## Barbebleu

Florestan said:


> BTW, I think Barbebleu mentioned this Ring in this thread in 2015 and that he got the Lohengrin that was recorded right after the Ring, but the Lohengrin had a lot of disruptions due to boarder closings/opening and fleeing singers during the occupation, which fortunately happened after the Ring was completed.


Very observant Flo. I had forgotten I had posted about this before. The curse of having 49 Rings and 25 Lohengrins and being of advanced years and too much info in my brain to recall them all!!:lol:

I listened to the Lohengrin which is very good but the Ring still awaits my attention. I hope to live long enough to get to it.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Barbebleu said:


> Very observant Flo. I had forgotten I had posted about this before. The curse of having 49 Rings and 25 Lohengrins and being of advanced years and too much info in my brain to recall them all!!:lol:
> 
> I listened to the Lohengrin which is very good but the Ring still awaits my attention. I hope to live long enough to get to it.


I am afraid my brain is not so great at recall and I never did develop a good memory function when I was a kid, even refused to learn the multiplication table, which makes for some roundabout head math on my part. I saw your post quite accidentally when it came up on a google search that included TC's web address in the search line (I do that a lot rather than internal searches).

Well I only have a couple Lohengrins so maybe I should check out Swarowsky's.


----------



## Bill H.

Barbebleu said:


> I wonder if Bill H. is likely to fix his forensic gaze on the '53 Furtwangler Ring any time soon?


Thank you for suggesting it! And Bill replies that he DOES own a boxed set of the original Seraphim LPs from the 1970s of the 1953 Furtwangler RAI Ring, and has it on the list of projects. If only because getting it was a lot cheaper than the Pristine download would have cost

Meanwhile, 


OperaChic said:


> While I'm patiently waiting for Pristine Classical's new website to be up, I was listening to my copy of the 1990 EMI mastering of the 1953 Furtwängler RAI Ring and I was struck by how murky the sound is compared to the 1948/49 Moralt Ring on Myto. So I was wondering if anyone has heard the Pristine remastering of the '53 RAI Ring and can tell me if the improvement would be worth the purchase when the site is back up.


The LPs were the source material that Mr. Rose used for his restoration of the RAI Ring. I hope that when the website is restored the discussion about source material for this recording will also be retained, because he explained with the release how the LPs were in fact the best source for any sort of restoration, with an included analysis of the frequency response of different previous versions. The reason why the EMI CDs sound so "murky" is that this was a botched reissue, as is often the case with the Every Mistake Imaginable Record Company. The CD sound was overfiltered using obsolete technology compared to today, so the higher frequencies the LPs retained were lost, and EMI has never seen fit to correct the mistake.

I'm hoping that my LP set of the RAI is in good enough condition for a decent transfer, but we'll have to wait... in the meantime I just scored on an LP set of the 1954 Furtwängler/Vienna Phil's "Die Walküre", and I may do that one first if the set is in half decent shape.


----------



## inglis

Its much more expensive, but the Japanese EMI copy of the RAI is said to be better than Pristine, 
at least according to feinstei9415, at Stevehoffman,

"I listened to the Andrew Rose 24 bit FLAC Rheingold (that I was able to burn to a single DVD-A disc) today in this "fake stereo" process that they have which separates out hall ambience from mono recordings. It was a little weird to have the orchestra centered with little extraneous hall noises in stereo, but overall the effect was not distracting. Mr. Rose really did a good job in terms of transferring the original 1971 vintage HMV EMI LP's to HiRes digital media.

However, I must say that the new Japanese SACD's from EMI are much more analytical sounding (as a tuba player, I listened for the "choir" of the 16 "Wagner-Tubas" (alto, tenor, bass, and contrabass) with the score in hand and see if the recording (Rose versus SACD) allowed me to hear the "conical brass" sonority of each of the tubas in the family and generally "free the music" from the boxiness that has been the major complaint about these recordings ever since they were issued. As good as Andrew Rose's equalization decisions were, he could not work miracles on the source material that he had (the original issue HMV LP's from 1971). The SACD's again made the sonorities "come alive", not only in the brass, but also in the winds and strings. Somehow, the source that the EMI guys used was not boxy at all and the SACD's brought the sound quality and spaciousness up to that of the best early mono recordings from the 1950's. Could EMI have magically gotten ahold of a better source than the "tape transcriptions of discs that RAI recorded these performances on"? Maybe EMI finally convinced RAI to let them have access to the original discs/tapes instead of copies? I wish I could read the Japanese liner notes to get a clue as to how they did such wonderful magic on these recordings!"

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/emi-furtwangler-rai-ring-cycle-on-sacd-a-glowing-review.288453/


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## gardibolt

Pristine says their website will be back up sometime next week; if you're on their mailing list, they're sending out free FLAC versions of Act I of the 1940 Leinsdorf Walküre (which I cheerfully paid full price for).


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## DarkAngel

Leider, Lawrence, Flagstad brunnhilde worship page for interwar period icons...........only the brave may enter the mighty hall of fallen heroes!


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## Bill H.

Another remix I've done from the Met recordings box--the 1938 "Tristan und Isolde," featuring Flagstad, Melchior, Branzell, List, and Huehn, conducted by Artur Bodanzky. Despite lots of disk swish and noise, the overall audio quality is a bit better for a live transcription from this era, even when compared to the Walküre from a couple of years later. In this reworking I was a little more conservative than with others to date, if only because both principal voices are so powerful and prominent that I wanted to avoid as much as possible having Flagstad's, especially, come across as overly shrill. I did try to bring out some more depth and weight to the lower end, however the basic flaws in the original source material (distortion, noise, garbled sections etc.) while mitigated, are still present. The FLAC download (546 MB total) is available from this link:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByTWd_3f2RpSeVZoQ1ZhTjdpdHc

BTW, the 1936 Götterdämmerung that I shared earlier has been slightly revised; the link is the same; see my earlier post to get it.

As always, comments/suggestions are welcome, backchannel or otherwise. Thanks!


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## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> Leider, Lawrence, Flagstad brunnhilde worship page for interwar period icons...........only the brave may enter the mighty hall of fallen heroes!


What a trinity! One could just cry...


----------



## DarkAngel

Margarete Matzenauer early 1920s MET

 Nanny Larsen-Todsen mid 1920s MET

 Gertrude Kappel late 1920s MET



Ljungberg early 1930s MET

*According to MET archives these were the most used Brunnhildes of 1920s and early 1930s, Leider first sang 1933, Flagstad and Lawrence both first appeared around 1935-36*


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## Woodduck

Love those photos! Keep 'em comin', DA.


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## DarkAngel

During 1940s after Flagstad returned to Norway and Lawrence became ill, Helen Traubel became the go to MET brunnhilde with Astrid Varnay and Rose Brampton alternating as Sieglinde


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## gardibolt

Traubel is so underestimated. She doesn't deserve to be forgotten as she has been. I suppose it's hard with Flagstad and Melchior running around, but she holds her own with them.


----------



## Bill H.

Here's the last of the older live performances from the Met Wagner Box that I've tried to remaster to add a little more body to the dim, distant, swishy sound from the acetate 78 rpm source material. This is the January 1937 "Siegfried" with Melchior in the title role, aided by Flagstad as Brünnhilde, Schorr as the Wanderer, Laufkötter as Mime, Thorborg as Erda, and also Huehn, List, Habich, and Andreva, all conducted by Bodanzky. Removal of all the numerous clicks, swish and surface noise isn't really possible without detriment to the musical signal (re-equalization notwithstanding), so it's still there, though mitigated. There are still quiet passages where the voices are barely discernible, probably because of the micophone placement relative to the stage and the singers' locations. More importantly, the acoustic ambience is a little more open and the lower range has more weight. Another characteristic worth noting is that these old disk transcriptions can have impressive dynamic range--the loudest orchestral passages (e.g. in Act III) have often more aural power than even some of the tape-recorded performances from the 1950s, e.g. the Bayreuth radio broadcasts. Of course, this is the ONLY recorded performance of the "complete" (cuts excepted) Siegfried with Melchior that's extant.

The zipped FLAC download (677 MB total) is available here:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByTWd_3f2RpSekJFc3dLQkpickU

Comments welcome, as always. 
Thanks!


----------



## Barbebleu

Bill H. said:


> Here's the last of the older live performances from the Met Wagner Box that I've tried to remaster to add a little more body to the dim, distant, swishy sound from the acetate 78 rpm source material. This is the January 1937 "Siegfried" with Melchior in the title role, aided by Flagstad as Brünnhilde, Schorr as the Wanderer, Laufkötter as Mime, Thorborg as Erda, and also Huehn, List, Habich, and Andreva, all conducted by Bodanzky. Removal of all the numerous clicks, swish and surface noise isn't really possible without detriment to the musical signal (re-equalization notwithstanding), so it's still there, though mitigated. There are still quiet passages where the voices are barely discernible, probably because of the micophone placement relative to the stage and the singers' locations. More importantly, the acoustic ambience is a little more open and the lower range has more weight. Another characteristic worth noting is that these old disk transcriptions can have impressive dynamic range--the loudest orchestral passages (e.g. in Act III) have often more aural power than even some of the tape-recorded performances from the 1950s, e.g. the Bayreuth radio broadcasts. Of course, this is the ONLY recorded performance of the "complete" (cuts excepted) Siegfried with Melchior that's extant.
> 
> The zipped FLAC download (677 MB total) is available here:
> 
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByTWd_3f2RpSekJFc3dLQkpickU
> 
> Comments welcome, as always.
> Thanks!


Thanks again Bill. The fun is in the comparing of the original with your remastering.


----------



## Bill H.

Barbebleu said:


> Thanks again Bill. The fun is in the comparing of the original with your remastering.


Thank you Barbebleu....the other part of the "fun" is that there's revised versions available--free upgrades! 
For example, I applied a new noise reduction solution to the 1940 Walkure that I had also applied to the '37 Siegfried and the '38 Tristan, and I find the result to be a bit better with regard to some of the swish/noise. It's worth downloading the newer version at the same link.


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## DarkAngel

*Pristine XR new and improved website is back, yessssss........*
The search is improved and extended samples sound better than ever

https://www.pristineclassical.com/

Check sound sample for this famous 40 MET Walkure:

https://www.pristineclassical.com/collections/composer-wagner/products/paco125


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## SiegendesLicht

Woodduck said:


> What a trinity! One could just cry...


And they look beautiful too! Real Valkyries....


----------



## silentio

Could anyone please suggest the best edition of this *1936 Parsifal with Fritz Busch/René Maison/ Marjorie Lawrence* ?

I tried Act II out this afternoon on YouTube and was amazed by Lawrence's strong presentation. She actually "sang" the role instead of resorting to the often-heard shrieks, screams, and moans in nowadays portraits. Plus she sounded so young (she _was _young, a 29 year old rising star at that time), unlike the grand-dame-like styles of many mezzo in the role.






P/S *Bill H.* dear, did you by any chance re-master this Parsifal  ?


----------



## satoru

silentio said:


> Could anyone please suggest the best edition of this *1936 Parsifal with Fritz Busch/René Maison/ Marjorie Lawrence* ?
> 
> I tried Act II out this afternoon on YouTube and was amazed by Lawrence's strong presentation. She actually "sang" the role instead of resorting to the often-heard shrieks, screams, and moans in nowadays portraits. Plus she sounded so young (she _was _young, a 29 year old rising star at that time), unlike the grand-dame-like styles of many mezzo in the role.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P/S *Bill H.* dear, did you by any re-master this Parsifal  ?


Well, I compared the OperaDepot version to the YouTube version and they sounded almost identical if not the same, including the surface noise. At least, the OperaDepot version is complete. Sorry for not being able to suggest "the best" but only "a" version.

https://operadepot.com/products/wagner-parsifal-rene-maison-marjorie-lawrence-alexander-kipnis-destal-fritz-busch

PS. A small gap in the Act II was identical. I conclude that the YouTube and OperaDepot versions are from the same source.


----------



## amfortas

DarkAngel said:


> *Pristine XR new and improved website is back, yessssss........*
> The search is improved and extended samples sound better than ever
> 
> https://www.pristineclassical.com/


Wasn't the Pristine catalog larger than what I'm seeing now? For one thing, I could have sworn they featured the 1950 Furtwängler La Scala Ring . . . ?


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## DarkAngel

^^^^ yes I have some items not listed yet so we are missing some, primary goal was to get website up and running. Rose did say no data was lost so eventually entire catalog should be listed........


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## amfortas

DarkAngel said:


> ^^^^ yes I have some items not listed yet so we are missing some, primary goal was to get website up and running. Rose did say no data was lost so eventually entire catalog should be listed........


OK thanks.
xxxxxxxxx


----------



## silentio

satoru said:


> Well, I compared the OperaDepot version to the YouTube version and they sounded almost identical if not the same, including the surface noise. At least, the OperaDepot version is complete. Sorry for not being able to suggest "the best" but only "a" version.
> 
> https://operadepot.com/products/wagner-parsifal-rene-maison-marjorie-lawrence-alexander-kipnis-destal-fritz-busch
> 
> PS. A small gap in the Act II was identical. I conclude that the YouTube and OperaDepot versions are from the same source.


Hi Satoru,

Thanks for the reply. I just found out that Marston released this quite a long time ago

http://www.marstonrecords.com/products/parsifal

_"In remastering this recording, my first task was to eliminate as much surface noise as possible without compromising the sound on the original discs. This was accomplished by carefully cleaning the discs and by wetting them while they were being played. I also found that using several different sizes of styli on different portions of the discs produced an enormous sonic improvement. I next attempted to remove many hundreds of clicks and pops which afflict this recording. CEDAR technology proved to be a tremendous help in this process but many pops still had to be removed manually using Sonic Solutions software. Some very large clicks were impossible to remove without affecting the integrity of the music. Finally, I attacked the problem of the erratic sound level changes during the performance. With careful editing, I was able to improve some of the most egregious examples. In many cases, however, the changes in balance were impossible to correct effectively. Despite these problems, the sound of the recording is quite good for the time and one does truly have the feeling of actually being in a seat at the Colón"_


----------



## satoru

silentio said:


> Hi Satoru,
> 
> Thanks for the reply. I just found out that Marston released this quite a long time ago
> 
> http://www.marstonrecords.com/products/parsifal
> 
> _"In remastering this recording, my first task was to eliminate as much surface noise as possible without compromising the sound on the original discs. This was accomplished by carefully cleaning the discs and by wetting them while they were being played. I also found that using several different sizes of styli on different portions of the discs produced an enormous sonic improvement. I next attempted to remove many hundreds of clicks and pops which afflict this recording. CEDAR technology proved to be a tremendous help in this process but many pops still had to be removed manually using Sonic Solutions software. Some very large clicks were impossible to remove without affecting the integrity of the music. Finally, I attacked the problem of the erratic sound level changes during the performance. With careful editing, I was able to improve some of the most egregious examples. In many cases, however, the changes in balance were impossible to correct effectively. Despite these problems, the sound of the recording is quite good for the time and one does truly have the feeling of actually being in a seat at the Colón"_


Hi silentio,

Thanks for the information on the source! It was useful.


----------



## howlingfantods

amfortas said:


> Wasn't the Pristine catalog larger than what I'm seeing now? For one thing, I could have sworn they featured the 1950 Furtwängler La Scala Ring . . . ?


try using search instead of using their navigation. search has always been more complete (although picking up some false positives) than their nav, but nav seems even more incomplete with their new site.

But even with search, quite a lot of their catalog is incomplete. I'd say around a quarter of my already purchased recordings don't appear on the site right now.


----------



## amfortas

howlingfantods said:


> try using search instead of using their navigation. search has always been more complete (although picking up some false positives) than their nav, but nav seems even more incomplete with their new site.
> 
> But even with search, quite a lot of their catalog is incomplete. I'd say around a quarter of my already purchased recordings don't appear on the site right now.


Dark Angel was right--they're still rebuilding the catalog. It already contains more than last night, including the aforementioned Furtwängler La Scala Ring.


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## DarkAngel

amfortas said:


> Dark Angel was right--they're still rebuilding the catalog. It already contains more than last night, including the aforementioned *Furtwängler La Scala Ring*.


That one has your name on it, buy buy..........


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## amfortas

DarkAngel said:


> That one has your name on it, buy buy..........


LOL. I don't have the disposable income. And if I were to shell out for another full cycle, it might be the 1955 Keilberth or 1953 Krauss first. Maybe the 1966-67 Böhm, too--a bit more affordable.

I am liking that Pristine 1940 Met _Walküre_, though . . .


----------



## DarkAngel

amfortas said:


> LOL. I don't have the disposable income. And if I were to shell out for another full cycle, it might be the 1955 Keilberth or 1953 Krauss first. Maybe the 1966-67 Böhm, too--a bit more affordable.
> 
> *I am liking that Pristine 1940 Met Walküre, though* . . .


So much to like, the best sound quality ever of these singers in prime voice....the Siegmund/Sieglinde of Melchior and Lawrence is especially memorable as Leinsdorf allows singers free reign fully express themselves, I suppose the Wotan of Julius Huen is considered "the weak" spot of the cast but by todays standards his performance would be an amazing revelation......the 1940 talent pool is very very deep at the MET's german wing, Fanfare magazine review:



> Sony and the Met, in their set Wagner at the Met, issued this same performance, and one might wonder why Pristine XR would bother. After all, the resources of the Metropolitan Opera Company and Sony should permit the transfer to be as good as technology is capable of. And indeed I have enjoyed that edition for the year or so that I have owned it. I am sure Sony and the Met did the best they could with what they had, but Andrew Rose of Pristine was given a different source (he is discreet and doesn't indicate from whom), a set of transfers on a completely different plane from the Sony release, not to mention inferior earlier issues. He had to make two tiny patches (each lasting less than a second, and covering side changes) and used the Sony/Met version.
> 
> An A-B comparison of this with the Sony set is shocking. The difference is not subtle. The Sony set sounds like a 1940 AM broadcast. This sounds like a professional studio commercial recording from 1940, and a good one at that. Pristine's XR stereo remastering gives a sense of the space of the Met, and the result is thrilling in a way one never thought this performance would be.


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## amfortas

DarkAngel said:


> So much to like, the best sound quality ever of these singers in prime voice....the Siegmund/Sieglinde of Melchior and Lawrence is especially memorable as Leinsdorf allows singers free reign fully express themselves, I suppose the Wotan of Julius Huen is considered "the weak" spot of the cast but by todays standards his performance would be an amazing revelation......the 1940 talent pool is very very deep at the MET's german wing, Fanfare magazine review:


I have the famous December 6, 1941 day-before-Pearl-Harbor broadcast, with the ubiquitous Melchior surrounded by a very different cast (Traubel as Brünnhilde, Varnay as Sieglinde, Schorr as Wotan). It's a memorable performance, but the sound quality is poor, and Schorr is a shadow of his younger self. The 1940 performance, in Pristine sound, would be a nice contrast and complement.


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## Bill H.

Yes, I took advantage of the free Pristine offer and downloaded the First Act of the 1940 Met Walküre. It's generally quite a contrast in sound quality to the Met's own release on Sony; much cleaner overall. It's great to hear Lawrence especially. I'm planning to get the entire work with one of his next sales.


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## amfortas

Bill H. said:


> Yes, I took advantage of the free Pristine offer and downloaded the First Act of the 1940 Met Walküre. It's generally quite a contrast in sound quality to the Met's own release on Sony; much cleaner overall. It's great to hear Lawrence especially. I'm planning to get the entire work with one of his next sales.


How do you get the free download? Do you have to be member?


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## Bill H.

silentio said:


> Could anyone please suggest the best edition of this *1936 Parsifal with Fritz Busch/René Maison/ Marjorie Lawrence* ?
> 
> I tried Act II out this afternoon on YouTube and was amazed by Lawrence's strong presentation. She actually "sang" the role instead of resorting to the often-heard shrieks, screams, and moans in nowadays portraits. Plus she sounded so young (she _was _young, a 29 year old rising star at that time), unlike the grand-dame-like styles of many mezzo in the role.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P/S *Bill H.* dear, did you by any chance re-master this Parsifal  ?


No, thanks for asking, but am afraid I don't have this one....and from the followup info that Marston's done a restoration of it, I'd go with that.


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## Bill H.

amfortas said:


> How do you get the free download? Do you have to be member?


Perhaps not a "member," but having been on the mailing list for a number of years, he sent one out a couple of weeks ago with updated news of the website re-load, and an offer to download the Act I free. You didn't see it? I think others have mentioned it as well, though I don't recall if it was in this thread.


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## Bill H.

DarkAngel said:


> ^^^^ yes I have some items not listed yet so we are missing some, primary goal was to get website up and running. Rose did say no data was lost so eventually entire catalog should be listed........


Unfortunately, the old purchase data that the former website had on file for us was lost, so alas no ability to go back and redownload new copies of we had previously bought


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## Bill H.

Just a heads-up, today I got one of the periodic updates from Berkshire Record Outlet, and they have copies of the Testament 1955 Bayreuth Stereo "Rheingold" and "Dutchman," both conducted by Joseph Keilberth. Both sets are US$18 each. Their stock also has the 1955 "Siegfried" at US$36, and his earlier Ring Cycle from 1952, but on other labels.


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## gardibolt

amfortas said:


> Dark Angel was right--they're still rebuilding the catalog. It already contains more than last night, including the aforementioned Furtwängler La Scala Ring.


The things that Pristine hasn't added back yet are subject to improvement. For instance, the Furtwängler La Scala Ring in its mp3 form used to be mono (which is the one I have). Now the mp3 is Ambient Stereo, and I'm seriously considering a double dip.


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## DarkAngel

This Gala label series is well worth getting, there are 4 volumes with 4Cds each very cheap under $10 each at Amazon USA sellers. These contain selected extended live Ring scences and studio Ring scences drawn for various sources from 1930-55 era performances at MET, ROH, Bayreuth etc.

Much of the material is available on individual Cds from different labels at much higher prices (sometimes insane prices) there is no info given about contents before purchase at Amazon, so here is run down of volume 4:
*
Gotterdammerung scences:*
- 38 Furtwangler ROH live
- 37 Furtwangler Bayreuth live
- 37 Furtwangler ROH live
- 48 Furtwangler studio
- 39 McArthur SFO live
- 55 McArthur Carnegie Hall
- 51 Sebastian studio
*
Walkure scences:*
- 49 Bohm studio
- 37 Ormandy live
- 55 McArthur Carnegie Hall
*
Siegfried scences:*
- 51 Sebastian studio

These feature all the "A" list singers of the era in sound that is as good as any Naxos historical of the same time period, booklet is surprisingly informative at budget price level with all track listings plus some nice photos and performance background info, this one is 24 pages long, for wagner collectors these are buy buy buy.........


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## cheftimmyr

FINALLY some "Ring-Therapy" time all to myself... I've been so anxious to get into the Potted Ring from Pristine that my delay in being able to do so has produced mass-anxiety for me... All is well now!

I remember when I first started getting heavily into the Wagner recordings, and especially leaning into the Historical's, I was apprehensive about the Potted Ring. The idea of sound quality and, to some degree, these singers that performed almost a hundred years ago... I mean, how good could they actually be?!?!?! My intro to Melchior as Siegmund was bliss and so I took the plunge on my last Pristine order and scooped up the Potted Ring Cycle.

First, the sound quality... For me, on my setup at home with good quality headphones I have been blown away by the quality of the recordings; so impressive words can't explain (and no, I don't think I'm gushing to extremes here... give it a listen if you don't believe me!). As an aside, I'm thrilled to see Mr Rose and the Pristine team have their new site up and running!

Thus far, I've listened thru the Reingold/Walkure discs which clocked in at about 2.5hrs of time total; talk about abbreviated Wagner! That was also another concern I had, the cuts, edits and missing pieces I thought might be an issue for me but I plotted out all the tracks in my libretto and then listening was a breeze as I was able to skip ahead without losing momentum.

The Rheingold portion was extremely short, at approx 22 mins but the Symphony Orchestra's prelude immediately transported me to the Rhine. I'm so used to hearing Niedlinger's "Alberich" that it took a second to get over not hearing him, but Arthur Fear has a pleasant and well-sung interpretation for me, albeit a very short sampling. I'll also go ahead and mention Fred Schorr's "Wotan" here. My only exposure to him thus far were excerpts of his Hans Sachs which I found sublime... His Wotan I thoroughly enjoyed in both Rheingold and Walkure. Some of the recordings throughout are from different dates, as well as live vs studio, so it was really interesting to hear subtle changes. I love his overall timbre and intonation; his Wotan came across as more elderly than Hotters and without the dramatics of Hotter, but the voice is so good (His "Leb Wohl" in Walkure is mesmorizing). If I didn't hear another Wotan besides Schorr and Hotter for the rest of my life, I wouldn't feel deprived!

Die Walkure introduced me to more "new" voices (for me); Walter Widdop's "Siegmund" was fine indeed. There was a somewhat youthful tone I heard in his vocals that really captured the part well for me. Well sung to the point I can't really think of anything that felt amiss; (his "Walse" wailing didn't have the heft or purity of Melchior's but I haven't heard anyone equal to that so far). The Sieglinde of Gota Ljungberg was a good pairing and the Act 1 Scene 3 duets had good chemistry.

The biggest takeaway for me, and why I will go back to this Walkure many times over is.... Frida-freaking-Lieder! Absolutely blew me away. There are a few portions where the recording has Florence Austral in the part and the difference is considerable, noticeable and disappointing; Lieder set the bar so very high for me, hearing her Brunnhilde. I think it might be the first soprano that made the part sound effortless. The purity and silk of her timbre and the fluidity with which she sang the role just blew me away; she made Brunnhilde come to life for me in a most feminine and desirable way.

As for the orchestra's I enjoyed the BSOO and LSO both very much; Coates & Blech were at the rostrum for the majority of the recordings, but it was cool to hear a Barbirolli segment and also hearing the quality difference between the live recordings and the sets recorded in London Abbey studios.

Apologies for the lengthy post but it's been a while and the last 2.5+ hours have been enchanting in the world of The Potted Ring... next up Siegfried and Gott... (If I haven't made myself clear; this should be part of any Wagner enthusiasts collection!)

Thx for pushing me into getting this DA! :tiphat:


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## DarkAngel

^^^^^ Without doubt this is the best sound quality document we have of these wonderful historical singers in their prime voice, assembled from the best studio recordings available, Andrew Rose/Obert-Thorn are doing gods work here........

Great to hear your comments Chefty, keep spreading the word and Frida wishes you all the best for your kind words of support


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## gardibolt

The Potted Ring is a hoot, and you're right, the sound quality is shockingly good. The folks who sneer at Pristine's work are missing out on some great stuff. I think I've listened to that set more than any other Ring Cycle I have besides Solti.


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## SixFootScowl

I can't remember if I posted this before, but it looks interesting:


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## Barbebleu

Florestan said:


> I can't remember if I posted this before, but it looks interesting:


This looks interesting. I have a companion volume called Les Introuvables du Chant Wagnerien. Highly recommended.


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## SixFootScowl

Barbebleu said:


> This looks interesting. I have a companion volume called *Les Introuvables du Chant Wagnerien*. Highly recommended.


 $49 used on Amazon right now. The one I posted is cheaper but still expensive compared to buying an entire historical cycle of one conductor, so it is hard to justify a 4-CD set like this at much of a price.


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## JAS

Barbebleu said:


> This looks interesting. I have a companion volume called Les Introuvables du Chant Wagnerien. Highly recommended.


The cover looks like it is from the Silent version of Die Nibelungen. It may be interesting that when he was asked to compose the music, Gottfried Huppertz specifically wanted to avoid quoting or imitating Wagner. His score is pretty good, although it has obviously had nothing like the impact of Wagner's music. (It is available on CD, both in a shorter and longer form.)


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## Woodduck

Florestan said:


> I can't remember if I posted this before, but it looks interesting:


Some really interesting stuff here. I have a copy of this I'd be willing to part with. PM me and we'll talk about it.


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## cheftimmyr

"Sieeeeeeegfried, Siegfried......"

My "Siegfried" Potted Ring experience was mostly satisfying. Hearing Melchior's interpretation was impressive. In fact, as I was listening to Melchior and Schorr's Wotan, I couldn't help wondering in disappointment why we don't have artists of this caliber today to enjoy in these roles...... Alas!

Despite my impressions of Melchior being a brash-and-belty singer personality I was genuinely taken aback by the thoughtful and emotional facets he brought to Siegfried... the vulnerability which he delivers during the forest murmurs and also his lament of feeling alone, truly rounded out a "complete" Siegfried for me. "Notung" was a true highlight of his voice, even if something seemed amiss to me amongst the orchestra when "Mime's" vocals were brought in during the piece; transitions seemed clunky and very slow in tempo at those places. Melchior seems to have been born for the role which has given so many others fits.

I didn't care much for Tessmer's "Mime"... until Reiss took over the part later on which I thought was extremely poor, at which point I began to MISS Tessmer in the role... unfortunate overall.

Schorr as the Wanderer was superb; a hint of regality in the voice giving us an air of the underlying Wotan. His back and forth with Mime was engaging, I only wish we could hear him as The Wanderer when he addresses Erda; unfortunately Emil Schipper underwhelmed during his takeover of the part which was a bummer to me being that it is a crucial juncture of the opera. Melchior's encounter with The Wanderer (Schorr) to pass up the mountain was drama filled; such clarity of diction and intensity, I'm so glad that portion made it onto the recording and not the cutting floor.

Habich's "Alberich" was well-enough played... the infighting between himself and Mime was entertaining and had good energy as did his confrontation with The Wanderer (which unfortunately suffered big cuts). The downside was his assumption of Fafner's voice... I'm sure technology was very limited at the time but it wasn't even close to the sounding of the Wurm-beast!

Florence Easton's "Brunnhilde" was a first for me; perhaps it was her sharing the "stage" (or studio as it were) with Melchior, but her voice seemed much too light for the part and there were two instances where I'm sure she missed pitch altogether. Since these were studio tracks I was a bit surprised at that and of course, still flying high from my Frida Lieder encounter it made me yearn to hear that voice in its' place! Easton didn't have the vocal power that say Astrid Varnay brought to "Heil dir, sonne.....". I don't mean to imply it was a "bad" performance, but being paired with Melchior he totally eclipsed her to the point that Brunnhilde became a supporting character instead of sharing the stage equally with Siegfried.

I feel like I've heard a benchmark Siegfried from Melchior, along with a wonderful Wanderer from Schorr...

(there were a few orchestration quibbles I had, but nothing too major and not worth mentioning.)

Potted Gotterdammerung next!


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## Barbebleu

Florestan said:


> $49 used on Amazon right now. The one I posted is cheaper but still expensive compared to buying an entire historical cycle of one conductor, so it is hard to justify a 4-CD set like this at much of a price.


My Les Introuvables du Ring arrived today. £12 from Amazon.co.uk marketplace. A steal I think. I shall report back when I get to it.


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## SixFootScowl

Barbebleu said:


> My Les Introuvables du Ring arrived today. £12 from Amazon.co.uk marketplace. A steal I think. I shall report back when I get to it.


Nice! I find that sometimes I can order from Amazon.co.uk and sometimes I can't. It saved me about $14 on a DVD once to go with the UK Amazon.


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## Woodduck

cheftimmyr said:


> View attachment 92824
> 
> 
> My "Siegfried" Potted Ring experience was mostly satisfying. Hearing Melchior's interpretation was impressive. In fact, as I was listening to Melchior and Schorr's Wotan, I couldn't help wondering in disappointment why we don't have artists of this caliber today to enjoy in these roles...... Alas!
> 
> Despite my impressions of Melchior being a brash-and-belty singer personality I was genuinely taken aback by the thoughtful and emotional facets he brought to Siegfried... the vulnerability which he delivers during the forest murmurs and also his lament of feeling alone, truly rounded out a "complete" Siegfried for me. "Notung" was a true highlight of his voice, even if something seemed amiss to me amongst the orchestra when "Mime's" vocals were brought in during the piece; transitions seemed clunky and very slow in tempo at those places. Melchior seems to have been born for the role which has given so many others fits.


There is a strange notion, easy to encounter if you read about him, that Melchior was a vocal phenomenon but a poor musician and mediocre artist. I'm sure such judgments are based on something, but for the life of me I can't figure out what. Second-hand stories, most likely. He left us many recordings, and in instance after instance he exhibits superb musicality and interpretive insight quite commensurate with his vocal prowess - and, in Wagner, made possible by that prowess, his ability actually to sing the music without compromise. Whether as Siegmund or Siegfried, whether in Tannhauser's agonized "Rome Narrative," whether drawing out the legato lines of _Tristan_'s love music or its third-act delirium, probing every poignant shade of meaning in Parsifal's transforming experience in the garden with Kundry or his final exaltation in healing Amfortas and redeeming the Grail - his artistic accomplishment in these roles has rarely been equaled. I even consider him among the greatest of Otellos, despite his having recorded excerpts from the role in German. He makes Verdi in German sound natural!

The more I hear would-be "heldentenors" hacking earnestly away at Wagner, the higher Melchior rises in my esteem. It's easy to understand how he, partnering the likes of Leider and Flagstad, helped to make Wagner nights the Met's biggest box-office draw. That's not likely to happen again.


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## DarkAngel

Going through my 1937-50 Tristans, reading notes from Richard Caniell (immortal performances) his preferred performance is the 37 Beecham ROH with Flagstad & Melchior (middle top row). He feels that Kirsten was at her absolute peak vocal wagner years in 1937-38 with a luminous voice of incomparable beauty and vocal fluency......while recognizing the greatness of Isolde's by Traubel, Leider, and Ljungberg and their individual strengths, he says Flagstad during this period has never been surpassed overall on recorded media

He also likes Beecham's sensuous orchestral touch and fewer cuts in score compared to Bodanzky, Reiner, Leinsdorf, the slower more romantic style of Beecham is showcased in Act II love scence and a slow building concluding Leibestod with towering crescendi. Caniell uses best of two Beecham performances (acts 1,2 June 18 & act 3 June 22 1937) causes some new cast to appear in act 3 but that is the way of Immortal performance......we are music lovers not purists so we enjoy 

Flagstad had 10 radio broadcast Isolde's from MET and BBC between 1935-41 (she returned to Norway during war) we thank the opera gods we have some great examples of her finest performances

BTW the 50 Knap Tristan (bottom) is a recent addition thanks to our feathered wagner expert, I like it....


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## Woodduck

Glad you've checked out the fine Treptow/Braun/Kna _Tristan._ I wonder how the sound of yours (what label?) compares with my cheap Gala issue.

I too feel that Flagstad was at her vocal and artistic peak (which is saying a great deal given her vocal longevity) in the late thirties. I'm deeply envious of those who got to hear her and Melchior together at that time, and the events of WW II were a sad interruption to their reign at the Met, as well as terrible and unfair to her personally. It's also a shame that Melchior wasn't tapped to be her Tristan in the Furtwangler recording, as his voice was also remarkably well preserved in the early 1950s (he was born in 1890!). Ludwig Suthaus was an admirable artist - I appreciate more than I once did his sheer vocal solidity and musical phrasing - but there was only one Lauritz.


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## Dodgers831

*A Classical Neophyte*

This is only my second post on Talk Classical and I am clearly out of my league in this Opera blog, but I wanted to share a recent experience. Having so much time on my hands, due to the heavy rains this winter in California, I started looking in my boxes of LPs and discovered two sets of, what I understand to be, The Ring trilogy by Wagner - Die Walkure and Gotterdammerung. I must've had these for years, but never was interested in listening to them, and am a little embarrassed to admit I didn't even know they were operas! In fact, up until two weeks ago, I had never spent any time listening to opera, in my 59 years on this planet. Anyhoos, the vinyls looked new and hardly played, thus the were clean and quiet. The sonics are excellent and I'm moving onto side 16 of 22. I am now a fan of opera!


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## DarkAngel

^^^ those are two studio Ring operas in very good stereo sound, Karajan - Walkure & Solti - Gott so you are starting at the top of the food chain my friend, keep exploring

I had to smile when you said side 16 of 22 vinyl lps, heh heh before CD age it took some work to be a wagner fan


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## Dodgers831

DarkAngel said:


> ^^^ those are two studio Ring operas in very good stereo sound, Karajan - Walkure and Solti - Gott so you are starting at the top of the food chain my friend, keep exploring
> 
> I had to smile when you said side 16 of 22 vinyl lps, heh heh before CD age it took some work to be a wagner fan


Ha! :lol: No kidding about the work! The album sides aren't even sequential. For instance Side 1 is pressed with Side 12, Side 2 with Side 11, and so on, thus I have to get a new record for each sequential side! They pressed the LPs for stacked record changers! No one would ever think about stacking records on top of each other in this day and age.

I'll be keeping an eye out for opera LPs at garage sales, now


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## Woodduck

Dodgers831 said:


> This is only my second post on Talk Classical and I am clearly out of my league in this Opera blog, but I wanted to share a recent experience. Having so much time on my hands, due to the heavy rains this winter in California, I started looking in my boxes of LPs and discovered two sets of, what I understand to be, The Ring trilogy by Wagner - Die Walkure and Gotterdammerung. I must've had these for years, but never was interested in listening to them, and am a little embarrassed to admit I didn't even know they were operas! In fact, up until two weeks ago, I had never spent any time listening to opera, in my 59 years on this planet. Anyhoos, the vinyls looked new and hardly played, thus the were clean and quiet. The sonics are excellent and I'm moving onto side 16 of 22. I am now a fan of opera!
> 
> View attachment 92836
> View attachment 92837


A most fortunate find! I owned both sets back in the '60s when the Solti vs. Karajan wars were just getting started. But don't worry about that. No one was killed.

Welcome to opera and TC!


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## Bill H.

Dodgers831 said:


> Ha! :lol: No kidding about the work! The album sides aren't even sequential. For instance Side 1 is pressed with Side 12, Side 2 with Side 11, and so on, thus I have to get a new record for each sequential side! They pressed the LPs for stacked record changers! No one would ever think about stacking records on top of each other in this day and age.
> 
> I'll be keeping an eye out for opera LPs at garage sales, now


Welcome to our little confab! 
It so happened that last weekend we traveled to the city where my son was performing with the local symphony, and the day after we went to an antiques mall, where we happened upon a full Decca set of the Solti Ring, apparently in a late issue pressing from the early 80s. So they're out there, and not too expensive either. We didn't buy it because I was wary of the LPs' condition, as the jacket and the disks were all covered with lots of dust and grit. Plus, I have the Deluxe edition on CD/Blueray and I didn't feel like trying to schlepp that thing on an airplane later in the day.


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## Dodgers831

Woodduck said:


> A most fortunate find! I owned both sets back in the '60s when the Solti vs. Karajan wars were just getting started. But don't worry about that. No one was killed.
> 
> Welcome to opera and TC!


Thanks for the welcome Karajan v Solti wars? Hmmm. Yeah, I won't worry about that. Way beyond my attention span What sounds good is good enough for me.


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## Dodgers831

Bill H. said:


> Welcome to our little confab!
> It so happened that last weekend we traveled to the city where my son was performing with the local symphony, and the day after we went to an antiques mall, where we happened upon a full Decca set of the Solti Ring, apparently in a late issue pressing from the early 80s. So they're out there, and not too expensive either. We didn't buy it because I was wary of the LPs' condition, as the jacket and the disks were all covered with lots of dust and grit. Plus, I have the Deluxe edition on CD/Blueray and I didn't feel like trying to schlepp that thing on an airplane later in the day.


Thanks Bill. I feel welcomed already Not sure where I found my set, maybe yard sale or Salvation Army store, but glad to see it is in excellent condition; price tag reads $2.50! I don't blame you for not grabbing the set before your flight. Who wants to lug around all that tonnage, then be distracted by the background of pops and ticks.


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## cheftimmyr

Dodgers831 said:


> This is only my second post on Talk Classical and I am clearly out of my league in this Opera blog, but I wanted to share a recent experience. Having so much time on my hands, due to the heavy rains this winter in California, I started looking in my boxes of LPs and discovered two sets of, what I understand to be, The Ring trilogy by Wagner - Die Walkure and Gotterdammerung. I must've had these for years, but never was interested in listening to them, and am a little embarrassed to admit I didn't even know they were operas! In fact, up until two weeks ago, I had never spent any time listening to opera, in my 59 years on this planet. Anyhoos, the vinyls looked new and hardly played, thus the were clean and quiet. The sonics are excellent and I'm moving onto side 16 of 22. I am now a fan of opera!
> 
> View attachment 92836
> View attachment 92837


Welcome to the forum, and the beginning of your journey down the rabbit hole... enjoy!


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## cheftimmyr

Final installment of the Potted Ring cycle for me; I'll keep this relatively short in deference to the adage "if you don't have anything nice to say....".

I felt the overall cast was very weak in comparison to the Walkure and Siegfried compilations; perhaps all the Melchior, Lieder and Schorr was a spoiling for me when I had to come back down to Earth, as it were, for the final installment.

A few positives, Ivar Andresen was a fine Hagen and Siegfried's funeral music is always moving.

Florence Austral delivered a less-than-stellar Immolation Scene. Overall most of the tracks seemed very fast and borderline rushed, which took a lot of momentum and impact out of the score for me. After reading some reviews after the fact, it was noted that some of the rush in tempo may be attributed to the need of fitting audio segments onto one side of a 78rpm record.

I continue on my Pristine binge with this selection next in line... I'm hopeful it's a home-run!


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## Woodduck

cheftimmyr said:


> View attachment 92867
> 
> 
> Final installment of the Potted Ring cycle for me; I'll keep this relatively short in deference to the adage "if you don't have anything nice to say....".
> 
> I felt the overall cast was very weak in comparison to the Walkure and Siegfried compilations; perhaps all the Melchior, Lieder and Schorr was a spoiling for me when I had to come back down to Earth, as it were, for the final installment.
> 
> A few positives, Ivar Andresen was a fine Hagen and Siegfried's funeral music is always moving.
> 
> Florence Austral delivered a less-than-stellar Immolation Scene. Overall most of the tracks seemed very fast and borderline rushed, which took a lot of momentum and impact out of the score for me. After reading some reviews after the fact, it was noted that some of the rush in tempo may be attributed to the need of fitting audio segments onto one side of a 78rpm record.
> 
> I continue on my Pristine binge with this selection next in line... I'm hopeful it's a home-run!
> 
> View attachment 92869


Avoiding awkward side breaks on 78's, especially in Wagner, was a real problem that many musicians found compromising. I've heard many studio performances by famous singers of the time that sounded rushed and superficial and surely didn't represent their work in the opera house - the difference between Frida Leider's studio "Liebestod" and the live one caught at the Met in 1933 being a perfect case in point. When you factor in the artificiality and clumsiness of the recording process and the knowledge that the sound of your voice as recorded would more or less misrepresent you, its a wonder that so many artists consented to be recorded at all.


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## Bonetan

cheftimmyr said:


> View attachment 92744
> 
> I'll also go ahead and mention Fred Schorr's "Wotan" here. My only exposure to him thus far were excerpts of his Hans Sachs which I found sublime... His Wotan I thoroughly enjoyed in both Rheingold and Walkure. Some of the recordings throughout are from different dates, as well as live vs studio, so it was really interesting to hear subtle changes. I love his overall timbre and intonation; his Wotan came across as more elderly than Hotters and without the dramatics of Hotter, but the voice is so good (His "Leb Wohl" in Walkure is mesmorizing).


I have to get my hands on this if for no other reason than to hear prime Schorr. I feel I'm doing myself a disservice by not having done so already. What can be found of him on YouTube is terribly lacking & frankly makes him seem a bit overrated. I know this is far from the truth after hearing it from much more experienced listeners than myself. Thanks for your reviews Chef!


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## DarkAngel

cheftimmyr said:


> View attachment 92867
> 
> 
> Florence Austral delivered a less-than-stellar Immolation Scene. Overall most of the tracks seemed very fast and borderline rushed, which took a lot of momentum and impact out of the score for me. After reading some reviews after the fact,* it was noted that some of the rush in tempo may be attributed to the need of fitting audio segments onto one side of a 78rpm record.*


Only 4 minutes playtime each side of 78 rpm shellac or vinyl album, that is why only segments of wagner opera were commercially released before the 1950s and 12 inch 33.3 rpm LP vinyl format arrived (20-25 minutes per side). The very first complete wagner opera commercially released was Solti Rheingold LP vinyl........











That Dutchy is the MET version of my favorite one from 59 Bayreuth with London & Rysanek


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## Barbebleu

I have this Holländer and regret to say I haven't got round to listening to it yet!


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## Dodgers831

Whew! After 22 sides, in and out of LP jackets, brushing each side, I've finished the Die Walkure and Gotterdammerung sets. OMG, what an intro to opera! What drama! Epic! Thoroughly entertaining, despite not understanding German or the storyline. I'm hooked and falling into the rabbit hole (as cheftimmyr put it) I realize I need to get my hands on a copy of Siegfried to complete the saga, but is there a quick and dirty synopsis in this blog to understand the trilogy? I tried reading the translations in the liner notes but that kept me from listening to the music. Also, is Rheingold critical to the understanding? Thanks.


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## interestedin

Dodgers831 said:


> is there a quick and dirty synopsis in this blog to understand the trilogy?


Not sure about quick, but dirty will be in it. Alberich wants to **** the rhinemaidens, they reject him, he steals their gold, makes a ring. Fricka is tired of her husband Wotan ******* around with other women so she wants to lock him up in a castle with her. Wotan pays the castle by selling Fricka's sister to the builders (they want to **** her). In order to rebuy her, Wotan steals Alberich's ring and hands it to the builders. Wotan is not only promiscuous but also greedy and a coward. So he ***** another woman so that one day the child will steal the ring for him. The woman got twins and when the twins grow up, they **** each other. Fricka doesn't like incest and decides her step-children must be murdered. Wotan murders his son. The other twin escapes and gives birth to her brother's son, Siegfried. Siegfried grows up, murders his adoptive father and robs the ring from one of the builders, murders the builder and rans across his aunt, Brünnhilde (another child of Wotan). He ***** his aunt, gives her the ring and then he runs away, meets Gutrune, her brother Gunther and their half-brother Hagen. Gutrune wants to **** Siegfried and Gunther wants to **** Brünnhilde, so they give S. drugs. Being on drugs, S. steals the ring from his aunt, abducts her and sells her to Gunther in exchange for Gutrune. But Brünnhilde throws a hissy fit, everything goes awry. So Brünnhilde, Gunther and Hagen decide to murder Siegfried. Hagen murders Siegfried. Then Hagen murders Gunther. Then the rhinemaidens murder Hagen and get the ring back. Then Brünnhilde sets the whole world on fire and the surviving protagonists die.


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## gardibolt

About sums it up. :lol:

I broke it down by opera for you:



interestedin said:


> Not sure about quick, but dirty will be in it.
> [DAS RHEINGOLD:] Alberich wants to **** the rhinemaidens, they reject him, he steals their gold, makes a ring. Fricka is tired of her husband Wotan ******* around with other women so she wants to lock him up in a castle with her. Wotan pays the castle by selling Fricka's sister to the builders (they want to **** her). In order to rebuy her, Wotan steals Alberich's ring and hands it to the builders. Wotan is not only promiscuous but also greedy and a coward.
> [In between Rheingold and Walküre]So he ***** another woman so that one day the child will steal the ring for him. [DIE WALKÜRE]The woman got twins and when the twins grow up, they **** each other. Fricka doesn't like incest and decides her step-children must be murdered. Wotan murders his son. The other twin escapes and gives birth to her brother's son, Siegfried.
> [SIEGFRIED] Siegfried grows up, murders his adoptive father and robs the ring from one of the builders, murders the builder and rans across his aunt, Brünnhilde (another child of Wotan).
> [GÖTTERDÄMMERUNG]He ***** his aunt, gives her the ring and then he runs away, meets Gutrune, her brother Gunther and their half-brother Hagen. Gutrune wants to **** Siegfried and Gunther wants to **** Brünnhilde, so they give S. drugs. Being on drugs, S. steals the ring from his aunt, abducts her and sells her to Gunther in exchange for Gutrune. But Brünnhilde throws a hissy fit, everything goes awry. So Brünnhilde, Gunther and Hagen decide to murder Siegfried. Hagen murders Siegfried. Then Hagen murders Gunther. Then the rhinemaidens murder Hagen and get the ring back. Then Brünnhilde sets the whole world on fire and the surviving protagonists die.


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## Azol

interestedin said:


> Not sure about quick, but dirty will be in it. Alberich wants to **** the rhinemaidens, they reject him, he steals their gold, makes a ring. Fricka is tired of her husband Wotan ******* around with other women so she wants to lock him up in a castle with her. Wotan pays the castle by selling Fricka's sister to the builders (they want to **** her). In order to rebuy her, Wotan steals Alberich's ring and hands it to the builders. Wotan is not only promiscuous but also greedy and a coward. So he ***** another woman so that one day the child will steal the ring for him. The woman got twins and when the twins grow up, they **** each other. Fricka doesn't like incest and decides her step-children must be murdered. Wotan murders his son. The other twin escapes and gives birth to her brother's son, Siegfried. Siegfried grows up, murders his adoptive father and robs the ring from one of the builders, murders the builder and rans across his aunt, Brünnhilde (another child of Wotan). He ***** his aunt, gives her the ring and then he runs away, meets Gutrune, her brother Gunther and their half-brother Hagen. Gutrune wants to **** Siegfried and Gunther wants to **** Brünnhilde, so they give S. drugs. Being on drugs, S. steals the ring from his aunt, abducts her and sells her to Gunther in exchange for Gutrune. But Brünnhilde throws a hissy fit, everything goes awry. So Brünnhilde, Gunther and Hagen decide to murder Siegfried. Hagen murders Siegfried. Then Hagen murders Gunther. Then the rhinemaidens murder Hagen and get the ring back. Then Brünnhilde sets the whole world on fire and the surviving protagonists die.


That awkward moment you both like the post and not sure if you want to click "Like"


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## amfortas

interestedin said:


> Not sure about quick, but dirty will be in it. Alberich wants to **** the rhinemaidens, they reject him, he steals their gold, makes a ring. Fricka is tired of her husband Wotan ******* around with other women so she wants to lock him up in a castle with her. Wotan pays the castle by selling Fricka's sister to the builders (they want to **** her). In order to rebuy her, Wotan steals Alberich's ring and hands it to the builders. Wotan is not only promiscuous but also greedy and a coward. So he ***** another woman so that one day the child will steal the ring for him. The woman got twins and when the twins grow up, they **** each other. Fricka doesn't like incest and decides her step-children must be murdered. Wotan murders his son. The other twin escapes and gives birth to her brother's son, Siegfried. Siegfried grows up, murders his adoptive father and robs the ring from one of the builders, murders the builder and rans across his aunt, Brünnhilde (another child of Wotan). He ***** his aunt, gives her the ring and then he runs away, meets Gutrune, her brother Gunther and their half-brother Hagen. Gutrune wants to **** Siegfried and Gunther wants to **** Brünnhilde, so they give S. drugs. Being on drugs, S. steals the ring from his aunt, abducts her and sells her to Gunther in exchange for Gutrune. But Brünnhilde throws a hissy fit, everything goes awry. So Brünnhilde, Gunther and Hagen decide to murder Siegfried. Hagen murders Siegfried. Then Hagen murders Gunther. Then the rhinemaidens murder Hagen and get the ring back. Then Brünnhilde sets the whole world on fire and the surviving protagonists die.


That's ****ing amazing.


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## cheftimmyr

interestedin said:


> Not sure about quick, but dirty will be in it. Alberich wants to **** the rhinemaidens, they reject him, he steals their gold, makes a ring. Fricka is tired of her husband Wotan ******* around with other women so she wants to lock him up in a castle with her. Wotan pays the castle by selling Fricka's sister to the builders (they want to **** her). In order to rebuy her, Wotan steals Alberich's ring and hands it to the builders. Wotan is not only promiscuous but also greedy and a coward. So he ***** another woman so that one day the child will steal the ring for him. The woman got twins and when the twins grow up, they **** each other. Fricka doesn't like incest and decides her step-children must be murdered. Wotan murders his son. The other twin escapes and gives birth to her brother's son, Siegfried. Siegfried grows up, murders his adoptive father and robs the ring from one of the builders, murders the builder and rans across his aunt, Brünnhilde (another child of Wotan). He ***** his aunt, gives her the ring and then he runs away, meets Gutrune, her brother Gunther and their half-brother Hagen. Gutrune wants to **** Siegfried and Gunther wants to **** Brünnhilde, so they give S. drugs. Being on drugs, S. steals the ring from his aunt, abducts her and sells her to Gunther in exchange for Gutrune. But Brünnhilde throws a hissy fit, everything goes awry. So Brünnhilde, Gunther and Hagen decide to murder Siegfried. Hagen murders Siegfried. Then Hagen murders Gunther. Then the rhinemaidens murder Hagen and get the ring back. Then Brünnhilde sets the whole world on fire and the surviving protagonists die.


Only to add: when Wotan commandeers the ring from Alberich, Alberich puts a curse on the ring... hence everyone who possesses the ring thereafter ends up "6ft under".


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## cheftimmyr

Dodgers831 said:


> Whew! After 22 sides, in and out of LP jackets, brushing each side, I've finished the Die Walkure and Gotterdammerung sets. OMG, what an intro to opera! What drama! Epic! Thoroughly entertaining, despite not understanding German or the storyline. I'm hooked and falling into the rabbit hole (as cheftimmyr put it) I realize I need to get my hands on a copy of Siegfried to complete the saga, but is there a quick and dirty synopsis in this blog to understand the trilogy? I tried reading the translations in the liner notes but that kept me from listening to the music. Also, is Rheingold critical to the understanding? Thanks.


I would say you can't have The Ring experience without Rheingold... it sets the stage for the entire story and also is the foundation for some of the recurring leitmotifs in the saga.


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## SixFootScowl

cheftimmyr said:


> Only to add: when Wotan commandeers the ring from Alberich, Alberich puts a curse on the ring... hence everyone who possesses the ring thereafter ends up "6ft under".


But what gives Alberich the power to add a curse to the Ring? And why didn't the Rhinemaidens curse the gold at the time it was stolen?


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## cheftimmyr

Florestan said:


> But what gives Alberich the power to add a curse to the Ring? And why didn't the Rhinemaidens curse the gold at the time it was stolen?


Good question and I'm sure there are Wagner vets who can answer better than myself; I would say that it is important to note that Alberich had to renounce Love in order to take position of the Gold. Maybe by doing this, in a mythical sense, his vow allowed him a certain amount of control. Also interesting to ponder that Alberich didn't "steal" the gold, inasmuch as he renounced Love (made a vow) which allowed him to take possession; Wotan used outright trickery to commandeer the Gold (at that point, The Ring). If I'm totally off someone set me straight


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## amfortas

I think the curse itself is revealing of character. The Rhinemaidens don't curse their stolen gold because that's not who they are--the thought probably never occurred to them. Alberich curses his stolen ring because his first thought is lashing out in vengeance--that's who he is--and a curse is his only recourse.


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## Dodgers831

Are you kidding me?! WTF!!!:lol: All you opera fans have just earned my respect. I see I don't have to tread lightly in this circle. Now I truly feel welcomed and at home! 

Interestedin, that's about as quick and DIRTY as it can get. You laid it out in a manner even I could follow and comprehend. I guess my search ends here. I feel like I know it all. Where did I ever get the idea opera was dull? Maybe you should be hired to draft the liner notes. Ha! Presently, none of my friends listen to opera. I need to enlighten them! 

Now I see why those daytime TV dramas were called soap operas! Duh!


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## DarkAngel

Hey did Pristine XR issue another wagner CD without me knowing, I just saw this 28 Meister with Schorr, note this in not complete but almost 80 minutes of excerpts assemble together from 78s by Obert Thorn, taken from two performances a few days apart



> The overriding _raison_ _d'être_ for the recording, however, was the preservation of Friedrich Schorr's portrayal of Sachs, which was already considered in a class by itself.


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## gardibolt

No, DA; they've had that Schorr available for a couple years at least. You just missed it amongst all the other wonderful offerings.


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## cheftimmyr

gardibolt said:


> No, DA; they've had that Schorr available for a couple years at least. You just missed it amongst all the other wonderful offerings.


I've never seen that in the Wagner category on the site... another "must" to buy!


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## gardibolt

Yeah, I think it was probably miscategorized on the old site; as I recall, I only stumbled onto it when I searched for "Schorr."


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## cheftimmyr

The Pristine binge continues with The Dutchman

This was an absolutely scintillating performance and what a treasure to have recorded with Pristine working their restorative magic. The extra tracks with the MET announcer's commentary after each act was nice to have as well.

George London crushed it as The Dutchman, conveying not only the hopelessness of his condition but also tones of weariness that make you believe he has actually been searching for his redemption these hundreds of years. The chemistry with Senta was full of emotion and energy. Vocally his tone was matched well for the part and delivered a first class performance.

William Olvis' Steersman was well sung and every time I hear the Steersman's song it gets stuck in a continuous loop in my head for at least the next week so I have that to look forward to! As a side note, I was reminded how many melodies (or motif's) appear in the Dutchman that are so distinctly Wagnerian but in a different sense compared to his later works; I'm not exactly sure how to describe it but maybe these are more accessible at the drop of the hat, in this regard, more straight forward and melodic with less layering to work through. In short, delightful!

Giorgio Tozzi and Karl Liebl gave solid performances as Daland and Erik, but Leonie Rysanek really shone with a huge vocal performance. Volume was never a problem and she had great command as the intensely-infatuated Senta longing for the "pallid seaman". Her top notes were well hit with impressive power.

As for the conducting, Schippers leads probably the most energetic and dynamic Dutchman I've heard to date. In fact, if you were to listen to the Knapp (1955, I believe) beforehand you would probably think Schippers was playing the score in fast-forward; two totally different approaches. Surprisingly it doesn't come off as rushed to me, for the most part, but rather encapsulates all the energy one would expect to experience in a high seas adventure. The energy in the sailors' choruses was palpable as well as the vorspiel. This performance commands the listeners attention at all times, never dragging.

This absolutely runs to the top of my list for Dutchman's; The Knap and Keilberth (with Uhde) are well worth having but as of right now, this MET performance with a great cast and energetic conducting have won me over. (A final thought, my first listening experience was with the Dorati performance but ironically I don't have any emotional connection in desiring to rehear that performance after I've experienced those listed above.)


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## Barbebleu

That's a nice review Chef. I will move that a bit further up my listening-to list.


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## cheftimmyr

I'd also like to throw out a Hollander-related question. Are there other must-have performances i'm missing from my library? I have the Dorati, Knap ('55, XYZ label), Keilberth (Testament) as well as the Schippers (Pristine).


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## DarkAngel

cheftimmyr said:


> I'd also like to throw out a Hollander-related question. Are there other must-have performances i'm missing from my library? I have the Dorati, Knap ('55, XYZ label), Keilberth (Testament) as well as the Schippers (Pristine).


Sawallisch was a great wagner conductor in the late 1950s and early 1960s, I would still get the 59 Bayreuth it is very cheap at Amazon sellers $7, also don't forget his two great Tannhauser's very cheap from early 1960s Bayreuth



 

Staying with Sawallisch there is 61 Bayreuth with Anja Silja replacing Rysanek in cast, then a famous "stereo" 62 Bayreuth that is hard to find and expensive with Crass replacing London.....

 

For studio versions Solti and Klemperer have their fans and improved stereo sound but these live Bayreuth and MET versions are hard to beat for actual emotional development of the characters and dramatic tension hard to capture in studio


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## DarkAngel

1937 Bodanzky MET








1940 Leinsdorf MET

(Holding post for further comment and listening)

I noticed that Caniell worked around the 1940 Leinsdorf for his dream ring boxset Walkure mainly to capture Flagstad's brunnhilde, but some would say Schorr and Lehmann are past their prime vocal years here (both would retire a couple years later)

Notice he also offers separately a 2nd Walkure from 1937 with better voiced Schorr and Majorie Lawrence as brunnhilde, Flagstad now sieglinde, leaves me wondering if this is not the true "dream" walkure that should be in the boxset, hmmmmm


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## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> Sawallisch was a great wagner conductor in the late 1950s and early 1960s, I would still get the 59 Bayreuth it is very cheap at Amazon sellers $7, also don't forget his two great Tannhauser's very cheap from early 1960s Bayreuth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Staying with Swallisch there is 61 Bayreuth with Anja Silja replacing Rysanek in cast, then a famous "stereo" 62 Bayreuth that is hard to find and expensive with Crass replacing London.....
> 
> 
> 
> For studio versions Solti and Klemperer have their fans and improved stereo sound but these live Bayreuth and MET versions are hard to beat for actual emotional development of the characters and dramatic tension hard to capture in studio


I forgot I actually do have the Sawallisch ('59) and the Tannhauser is great as well.... thx for other recs!


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## amfortas

DarkAngel said:


> Notice he also offers separately a 2nd Walkure from 1937 with better voiced Schorr and Majorie Lawrence as brunnhilde, Flagstad now sieglinde, leaves me wondering if this is not the true "dream" walkure that should be in the boxset, hmmmmm


But Caniell wanted his Dream Ring to have consistent casting across all four operas, so he needed Flagstad as the _Walküre_ Brünnhilde to go with her appearances in _Siegfried_ and _Götterdämmerung_. Besides, whose "dream" version of _Die Walküre_ features Flagstad as Sieglinde and not as Brünnhilde?


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## DarkAngel

^^^^ I wouldn't want Caniell to limit himself and feel the need to be "consistent" across all operas with his total "fantasy" dream Ring, we have later examples where Bayreuth conductors using different wotan/wanderer singers, some years we have two different brunnhildes in same ring, and famously 50 Furtwangler has two Siegfrieds with Svanholm & Lorenz.....Immortal Performances is all about creating best possible performance from multiple sources if needed

Would be great to see Lawrence and Lieder worked into some parts of the "dream ring" while keeping best of Flagstad parts, as long as cast and sound reasonably permit (all three Flagstad, Lawrence, Leider were singing wagner at the MET during 1935-38 period)


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## howlingfantods

cheftimmyr said:


> I'd also like to throw out a Hollander-related question. Are there other must-have performances i'm missing from my library? I have the Dorati, Knap ('55, XYZ label), Keilberth (Testament) as well as the Schippers (Pristine).


For a London/Rysanek performance, I actually favor the Bohm 1963 recording from the Met over the Schippers, Sawallisch and certainly over the Cluytens. In addition to London and Rysanek's typical good work, the Bohm also has Konya's excellent Erik, and a good Daland from Tozzi. Bohm's performance is dramatic and incisive, on a live recording with pretty good mono sound.

The Sinopoli is definitely worth trying out. It's a different performance, more lyrical and italianate, very beautiful. Excellent performances from Studer and Domingo, and a good one from Weikl although he's a bit more of a lyric baritone than a dramatic bass-baritone.

You don't list one of the Hotter performances--probably the best one available is the performance with Varnay from a slightly boxy 1950 Met recording with Reiner. Varnay is Varnay. If you like her overly dark soprano and excessive scooping, you'll probably like her here. She is more tolerable as Senta than Brunnhilde. I'd avoid Hotter's studio recording with Krauss and Ursuleac--Hotter is great but Ursuleac is long past her peak and pretty treacly.

Some people swear by the Klemperer but I'm not a fan--too ponderous and I find Silja pretty shrill and unpleasant generally, and Adam is fine but not great. There are a lot of Konwitchny fans out there--DFD sings beautifully, still in his prime, but he's much too light for the role for me. And Schech has seen much better days.


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## interestedin

DarkAngel said:


> all three Flagstad, Lawrence, Leider were singing wagner at the MET during 1935-38 period)


Flagstad was chosen by the MET as a replacement for Leider, so I doubt Leider sung at the MET after 1934. Are you sure about that?

Both of them did perform together as Sieglinde/Brünnhilde and Gutrune/Brünnhilde in Bayreuth 1934 though. A shame there is no recording of that....


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## SixFootScowl

howlingfantods said:


> ...
> 
> *The Sinopoli is definitely worth trying out.* It's a different performance, more lyrical and italianate, very beautiful. Excellent performances from Studer and Domingo, and a good one from Weikl although he's a bit more of a lyric baritone than a dramatic bass-baritone.
> 
> *Some people swear by the Klemperer *but I'm not a fan--too ponderous and I find Silja pretty shrill and unpleasant generally, and Adam is fine but not great. There are a lot of Konwitchny fans out there--DFD sings beautifully, still in his prime, but he's much too light for the role for me. And Schech has seen much better days.


I second the Sinopoli for having a great Dutchman. I maintain Klemperer has the best Senta (Silja) on recording. I would go the studio Klemperer over the live, but both are great.

I have nearly a dozen Hollanders. Other than Sinopoli and Klemperer, I think the Fricsay set is very good too, and I do like the one with Behrens (von Dohnanyi).


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## DarkAngel

interestedin said:


> Flagstad was chosen by the MET as a replacement for Leider, *so I doubt Leider sung at the MET after 1934. Are you sure about that*?
> 
> Both of them did perform together as Sieglinde/Brünnhilde and Gutrune/Brünnhilde in Bayreuth 1934 though. A shame there is no recording of that....


You are correct, according to MET archives Frida Leider had 30 opera performances in 1933-34 none after that, Lawrence had 81 MET performances between 1935-42, Flagstad MET debut was 1935


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## Barbebleu

Florestan said:


> I second the Sinopoli for having a great Dutchman. I maintain Klemperer has the best Senta (Silja) on recording. I would go the studio Klemperer over the live, but both are great.
> 
> I have nearly a dozen Hollanders. Other than Sinopoli and Klemperer, I think the Fricsay set is very good too, and I do like the one with Behrens (von Dohnanyi).


You like the one with Behrens then Flo. You do surprise me.:lol:


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## SixFootScowl

Barbebleu said:


> You like the one with Behrens then Flo. You do surprise me.:lol:


I have a thing for Behrens at the moment.


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## cheftimmyr

I'm in heaven and being spoiled rotten as I continue through my trove of Pristine recordings... I was deciding between the recently released Nilsson/Bohm "Tristan" and this Act 1 recording of Die Walkure with Melchior, Lehmann and Bruno Walter in the pit. I chose Walkure due to the easy time commitment (a mere hour) and also all of the hype I've read about this particular recording being a landmark performance... the hype is real and well deserved!

I was stunned by the clarity of sound; the acoustics and resonance that remained on the recording even after the restorative process was sublime, and the balance of orchestra and vocals blended cohesively to transport me immediately into Wagner world.

This was my first experience with Bruno Walter leading a Wagner score and I cannot express how impressed I was with his leadership and the VPO's first class performance. I can't speak for the master, but Wagner played in this way is "other-worldly". One particular moment, in scene 1, where the cello introduces the love motif was the most foreboding and hypnotic I've heard thus far; as if every instrument and principal paused while the motif resounds setting an anchor for the rest of the act as it reappears and fades away.

Lotte Lehmann sings a Sieglinde full of ardor; conflicted by her feelings of being a hostage wanting to escape the control of Hunding. Her voice has a youthful freshness here which holds its own with Melchior's immense presence and talent.

Emanuel List sings a Hunding possessed of impending savagery and dominance. I didn't grow bored or indifferent for one moment during his parts in this Act.

Melchior leaves little competition for anyone to challenge his title as "Ultimate Heldentenor" here... the guy is just off the charts talented. The true vulnerability he expressed during Siegmunds "Wehwalt" refrain was gripping, as was his singing of the melody of the 'Volsung Woe' motif. His Spring Song with Lehmann is heavenly... even people who don't "get" the big deal about Wagner would be hard pressed not to appreciate this performance, IMO.

Side note, during scene 2 (i believe) I heard what sounded like the intro/precursor to "Siegfrieds Funeral March" where Melchior sings "Nun weißt du fragende Frau, warum ich Friedmund- nich heiße!"; I'd never noticed that before... am I wrong? If not, I wonder what the significance is of Wagner putting that motif at this particular juncture of Walkure; Siegmund has just been relaying his past journey to Hunding and references the maid he was protecting until the spear and shield were hacked from his hands and she was killed while he watched. Any veteran advice would be appreciated!

It seems some members look down on "Desert-Island" picks, but the sheer excellence in all facets of this recording make it so, for me... Wagner bliss! My only question, what happened to the rest of this performance?!?!?!?!?!?!


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## Bill H.

cheftimmyr said:


> View attachment 92982
> 
> 
> I'm in heaven and being spoiled rotten as I continue through my trove of Pristine recordings... I was deciding between the recently released Nilsson/Bohm "Tristan" and this Act 1 recording of Die Walkure with Melchior, Lehmann and Bruno Walter in the pit. I chose Walkure due to the easy time commitment (a mere hour) and also all of the hype I've read about this particular recording being a landmark performance... the hype is real and well deserved!
> 
> I was stunned by the clarity of sound; the acoustics and resonance that remained on the recording even after the restorative process was sublime, and the balance of orchestra and vocals blended cohesively to transport me immediately into Wagner world.
> 
> This was my first experience with Bruno Walter leading a Wagner score and I cannot express how impressed I was with his leadership and the VPO's first class performance. I can't speak for the master, but Wagner played in this way is "other-worldly". One particular moment, in scene 1, where the cello introduces the love motif was the most foreboding and hypnotic I've heard thus far; as if every instrument and principal paused while the motif resounds setting an anchor for the rest of the act as it reappears and fades away.
> 
> Lotte Lehmann sings a Sieglinde full of ardor; conflicted by her feelings of being a hostage wanting to escape the control of Hunding. Her voice has a youthful freshness here which holds its own with Melchior's immense presence and talent.
> 
> Emanuel List sings a Hunding possessed of impending savagery and dominance. I didn't grow bored or indifferent for one moment during his parts in this Act.
> 
> Melchior leaves little competition for anyone to challenge his title as "Ultimate Heldentenor" here... the guy is just off the charts talented. The true vulnerability he expressed during Siegmunds "Wehwalt" refrain was gripping, as was his singing of the melody of the 'Volsung Woe' motif. His Spring Song with Lehmann is heavenly... even people who don't "get" the big deal about Wagner would be hard pressed not to appreciate this performance, IMO.
> 
> Side note, during scene 2 (i believe) I heard what sounded like the intro/precursor to "Siegfrieds Funeral March" where Melchior sings "Nun weißt du fragende Frau, warum ich Friedmund- nich heiße!"; I'd never noticed that before... am I wrong? If not, I wonder what the significance is of Wagner putting that motif at this particular juncture of Walkure; Siegmund has just been relaying his past journey to Hunding and references the maid he was protecting until the spear and shield were hacked from his hands and she was killed while he watched. Any veteran advice would be appreciated!
> 
> It seems some members look down on "Desert-Island" picks, but the sheer excellence in all facets of this recording make it so, for me... Wagner bliss! My only question, what happened to the rest of this performance?!?!?!?!?!?!


I've got that one, too--I hope someone can confirm, but I think this recording of Act I has perhaps never been out of print since it's first release, it's that good.

As for what happened to the rest of the opera, much of that had to do with the ever darkening atmosphere in Europe at the time. As it was, there were some Act II scenes recorded by the principals here. I found the explanation in more detail in this review of the recordings Lotte Lehmann did of Walküre: http://lottelehmannleague.org/die-walkure/


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## amfortas

cheftimmyr said:


> Side note, during scene 2 (i believe) I heard what sounded like the intro/precursor to "Siegfrieds Funeral March" where Melchior sings "Nun weißt du fragende Frau, warum ich Friedmund- nich heiße!"; I'd never noticed that before... am I wrong? If not, I wonder what the significance is of Wagner putting that motif at this particular juncture of Walkure; Siegmund has just been relaying his past journey to Hunding and references the maid he was protecting until the spear and shield were hacked from his hands and she was killed while he watched. Any veteran advice would be appreciated!


Wagner wrote the Funeral March as a kind of reminiscence, not only of Siegfried's own life, but also of his sad family history. So the march includes motifs associated with Siegmund and Sieglinde, their love, and the Volsung race as a whole, along with the mournful theme you mentioned.


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## DarkAngel

cheftimmyr said:


> View attachment 92982
> 
> 
> I'm in heaven and being spoiled rotten as I continue through my trove of Pristine recordings... I was deciding between the recently released Nilsson/Bohm "Tristan" and this Act 1 recording of Die Walkure with Melchior, Lehmann and Bruno Walter in the pit. I chose Walkure due to the easy time commitment (a mere hour) and also all of the hype I've read about this particular recording being a landmark performance... the hype is real and well deserved!


Great comments Chefty, since you are in wagner heaven with Walter's 35 Walkure you should get all available segments on EMI Cds, you have Act 1 on Pristine XR....for Act II very cheap $4 at Amazon, combines two performances at Vienna and Berlin 1935-36 with Seidler-Winkler scence 1,2,4 & Walter scence 3,5



















For Brunnhilde we have Fuchs, but look at Wotan a very young Hans Hotter, this is crazzzzyyyyy must buy, the birth of a Wotan legend

Sorry no act III..... 

There is a 2CD Naxos release that has both Act I, II together, Obert-Thorn restoration


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## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> Great comments Chefty, since you are in wagner heaven with Walter's 35 Walkure you should get all available segments on EMI Cds, you have Act 1 on Pristine XR....for Act II very cheap $4 at Amazon, combines two performances at Vienna and Berlin 1935-36 with Seidler-Winkler scence 1,2,4 & Walter scence 3,5
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For Brunnhilde we have Fuchs, but look at Wotan a very young Hans Hotter, this is crazzzzyyyyy must buy, the birth of a Wotan legend
> 
> Sorry no act III.....
> 
> There is a 2CD Naxos release that has both Act I, II together, Obert-Thorn restoration


Awesome, thanks for the tips. Any discernible sound difference on EMI vs Obert-Thorn? (Assuming O-T restoration)

I'm through Act 1 of the 1960 Nilsson/Bohm "Tristan"... hopefully will finish tomorrow


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## DarkAngel

> Awesome, thanks for the tips. Any discernible sound difference on EMI vs Obert-Thorn? (Assuming O-T restoration)


I will usually always get Naxos version if price is no issue, Amazon sellers have Naxos 2CD set for $11


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## cheftimmyr

It was nice to mix some "Tristan" into my listening lineup, I have been preoccupied with a lot of Ring listening and going from Dutchman to this 1960 "Tristan" with Birgit Nilsson and Karl Bohm was excellent. The audio quality was very nice and most of the audible coughing etc had been minimized and after the first few minutes of the performance I don't remember any such distractive noises.

This recording was all about Nilsson for me; the first Tristan I ever listened to all the way through was the '66 with Bohm, Nilsson and Windgassen (with Furtwangler following that). Vocally, in this 1960 recording, Nilsson delivers the full arsenal of range, emotion and volume! The voice sounds much more fresh to me in this recording than the 1966; what a difference the 6 years make! I'm so glad I got to hear a younger Nilsson, shortly after her MET debut. Her liebstod was very well sung but I actually felt like Bohm held the orchestra back from a true climax, and it sounded like even with a higher level from the orchestra Nilsson still could have decimated them with her vocal power.

Ramon Vinay didn't do it for me as Tristan in this performance; he sounded truly "older" to me, which made sense when I looked up after listening and found out this was one year before he retired from MET performances. The few recordings I have heard of him have been so-so for me; I'm not ruling out the fact that all the Melchior I've been digesting might be coming into play here as well. Any-who, the chemistry between Vinay and Nilsson during Act II just wasn't there for me; Furty and the '66 Bohm Act II's were superior in this aspect for me.

I was excited to hear Irene Dallis as Brangane; I liked her Act 1 performance but then felt like she was devoid of meaningful emotion during Brangane's warnings from the watchtower which were so hypnotically sung by Blanche Thebom in the Furtwangler. Cassel's Kurwenal was adequate but not superior.

I really liked Jerome Hines as King Mark; vocally a beautiful timbre for the part, he just didn't bring a lot of emotion to the part especially during his lengthy address to Tristan.

Karl Bohm did a good job with the Met orchestra, everything was well played, but I did notice the performance didn't catapult me into oblivion like the Furtwangler has in the past (I don't want to over do the comparisons to a monumental performance like the Furty, but I feel it bears mentioning). It seemed to me that Bohm got more heat and intensity in his 1966 performance than here. I will add that the opening of Act 3 continues to be one of my favorite Wagner moments period; Bohm and the orchestra delivered in that respect.

Well played and a solid performance with Nilsson in great voice; my only other peeve were the cuts in Acts 2 & 3... kind of annoying!

This is in my Top 5 Tristan recordings as I have it now, but not breaking my Top 3... get it for a great Nilsson performance!


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## cheftimmyr

Does anyone have an opinion on Jon Vickers' best recorded Tristan? (I have the HvK on vinyl but that's a 1972)


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## gardibolt

cheftimmyr said:


> Awesome, thanks for the tips. Any discernible sound difference on EMI vs Obert-Thorn? (Assuming O-T restoration)
> 
> I'm through Act 1 of the 1960 Nilsson/Bohm "Tristan"... hopefully will finish tomorrow


I don't know EMI's version, but the Naxos Obert-Thorn is excellent.


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## howlingfantods

cheftimmyr said:


> Does anyone have an opinion on Jon Vickers' best recorded Tristan? (I have the HvK on vinyl but that's a 1972)


I'm a pretty big fan of the recording at the Orange Festival with Nilsson and Bohm. Live, orchestral sound is a little dim at times, the singers go in and out of good recording range, and there's wind on the mic at times. Pretty great recording though. It's also available on video but I've only listened to the audio version.

I hear there's another live recording that Vickers performed with Nilsson and Horst Stein but I haven't heard good things and I also haven't seen it available for a reasonable price.


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## gardibolt

For fans of Martha Mödl, operadepot.com has a 24 hour sale of 60% off of all of Martha's recordings in honor of her 105th birthday.

They also have a free download of her doing Lady Macbeth.


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## DarkAngel

I think I have found Flagstad's best liebestod, comes from 1949 radio recital with Set Svanholm of all wagner material, you can tell from the early vocal swells at 1:23 and 1:36 that she is in the zone and will really let go, really captures the building emotional climax and glorious transfiguration to transcend mortal bounds

Since this is recital she is well rested and can really exert herself, Naxos CD has very good sound of this event


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## gardibolt

Oooo that does look good. Thanks for the tip DA. Buy buy buy.


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## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> Oooo that does look good. Thanks for the tip DA. Buy buy buy.


Yes all here must buy.......

Svanholm has really great "in fernem land" that displays his beautiful golden tenor & soft voice same Naxos disc.......who said the powerful swan knight cannot also produce such beautiful sound






Flagstad also has great "senta's ballad" which is not often heard by her, but she has the vocal weight and power to really knock it out


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## OperaChic

Question for everyone regarding historical Tannhausers:

The 1941 Leinsdorf, 1942 Szell, and the 1954 Szell. Are any of these the PARIS version, or are they all the DRESDEN version??


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## WildThing

OperaChic said:


> Question for everyone regarding historical Tannhausers:
> 
> The 1941 Leinsdorf, 1942 Szell, and the 1954 Szell. Are any of these the PARIS version, or are they all the DRESDEN version??


The Leinsdorf is the Paris version, the 54 Szell is of the Dresden. Haven't heard the 42 Szell so can't comment on that. I like the bacchanale and think it works well in context, so I prefer Paris.


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## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> I think I have found Flagstad's best liebestod, comes from 1949 radio recital with Set Svanholm of all wagner material, you can tell from the early vocal swells at 1:23 and 1:36 that she is in the zone and will really let go, really captures the building emotional climax and glorious transfiguration to transcend mortal bounds
> 
> Since this is recital she is well rested and can really exert herself, Naxos CD has very good sound of this event


Ordered! Also ordered Naxos "Walkure" with Melchior/Lehmann... "buy, buy, buy!" :tiphat:


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## cheftimmyr

I also finally pulled the trigger on the Walhall 1943 Furty Meistersinger. Norpete has had it listed for a great price but has been out of stock for 6months now so I went on Amazon and just paid the extra... looking forward to giving t a listen. Also searching for the HvK 1951 mono Meister that someone recommended on a different thread...


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## SixFootScowl

This looks interesting. Sound is remarkably good for the 1930s Clips here.


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## cheftimmyr

Florestan said:


> This looks interesting. Sound is remarkably good for the 1930s Clips here.


Not sure on exact dates, but looks like same cast and conductors in the Potted Ring Cycle


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## Faustian

cheftimmyr said:


> I also finally pulled the trigger on the Walhall 1943 Furty Meistersinger. Norpete has had it listed for a great price but has been out of stock for 6months now so I went on Amazon and just paid the extra... looking forward to giving t a listen. Also searching for the HvK 1951 mono Meister that someone recommended on a different thread...


I just picked that Karajan 1951 Meistersinger up myself on Amazon for under $20 after seeing that same recommendation.


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## Barbebleu

Faustian said:


> I just picked that Karajan 1951 Meistersinger up myself on Amazon for under $20 after seeing that same recommendation.


I'm sure you're aware of this but the '51 Karajan is a composite of various performances and rehearsals so not a uniform production. I've no problem with that. I'd rather have it than not but it is what it is.


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## Faustian

Barbebleu said:


> I'm sure you're aware of this but the '51 Karajan is a composite of various performances and rehearsals so not a uniform production. I've no problem with that. I'd rather have it than not but it is what it is.


Isn't this true for quite a number of "live" recordings, that they are really a composite of a series of performances to cover up mistakes and whatnot, rather than a recording of one single performance beginning to end? I actually wasn't aware that this was the case here as well, and appreciate the heads up, but I can't say that bothers me very much either, anymore than studio recordings being sewn together from multiple outtakes and segments recorded over extended periods of time.


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## amfortas

Faustian said:


> I just picked that Karajan 1951 Meistersinger up myself on Amazon for under $20 after seeing that same recommendation.


For the same amount, you can get it in a box set along with the great '51 Knappertsbusch _Parsifal_ and '52 Furtwängler _Tristan_. No frills, no libretto, and there have been better remasterings, but still a good deal for the price.










Note: Does not actually include _Lohengrin_.


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## gardibolt

Faustian said:


> Isn't this true for quite a number of "live" recordings, that they are really a composite of a series of performances to cover up mistakes and whatnot, rather than a recording of one single performance beginning to end? I actually wasn't aware that this was the case here as well, and appreciate the heads up, but I can't say that bothers me very much either, anymore than studio recordings being sewn together from multiple outtakes and segments recorded over extended periods of time.


Yes, it's quite common for the rehearsal to be recorded (or multiple performances) and used to patch in the live performance if something goes badly enough awry for someone to notice, or sometimes if it's just done better at the rehearsal. The engineers are very good at covering their tracks and making it difficult to tell what's from where.


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## DarkAngel

^^^^ Those are our friends at ZYX label super low price, you can also buy just the 51 Karajan Meister from that boxset for $9 Amazon USA sellers, look like this:


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## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> ^^^^ Those are our friends at ZYX label super low price, you can also buy just the 51 Karajan Meister from that boxset for $9 Amazon USA sellers, look like this:


Excellent! Ordered. (Buy, buy, buy)


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## howlingfantods

Faustian said:


> I just picked that Karajan 1951 Meistersinger up myself on Amazon for under $20 after seeing that same recommendation.


It's a great version if you can continue to enjoy despite the hamfisted stylings of Hans Hopf as Walther. I unfortunately can't but Edelmann and Schwarzkopf and Karajan are all excellent, Schwarzkopf in particular may be the most ideal Eva on record.


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## amfortas

howlingfantods said:


> It's a great version if you can continue to enjoy despite the hamfisted stylings of Hans Hopf as Walther. I unfortunately can't but Edelmann and Schwarzkopf and Karajan are all excellent, Schwarzkopf in particular may be the most ideal Eva on record.


I'm going to pretend I said this. Because I would have.


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## Bill H.

Faustian said:


> Isn't this true for quite a number of "live" recordings, that they are really a composite of a series of performances to cover up mistakes and whatnot, rather than a recording of one single performance beginning to end? I actually wasn't aware that this was the case here as well, and appreciate the heads up, but I can't say that bothers me very much either, anymore than studio recordings being sewn together from multiple outtakes and segments recorded over extended periods of time.





gardibolt said:


> Yes, it's quite common for the rehearsal to be recorded (or multiple performances) and used to patch in the live performance if something goes badly enough awry for someone to notice, or sometimes if it's just done better at the rehearsal. The engineers are very good at covering their tracks and making it difficult to tell what's from where.


Probably always been true to some extent, even more now with the advent of digital recording and electronic splicing. An example of a historical performance that may be an exception to this is the 1953 Krauss Ring Cycle, since he only did it once at Bayreuth (Keilberth did the other that year) and there are no other Krauss Ring performances to theoretically splice into what we have there as his legacy. Rehearsal splices could also have been used, but I don't know if there were tapings of rehearsals in those years--in any case, splicing in a rehearsal tape could be quite audible if the acoustic of an empty Bayreuth is significantly different from one that's filled, especially with all the audience hackers and coughers that are notorious in those performances

OTOH, Krauss did ALL of the Parsifal performances that summer, so there are several from which the version that is now documented from that year could have been "assembled".

Assuming the other years in the 50s where there were two Cycles which were split among the two main conductors (like Keilberth and Kna), there would also have been only one performance on tape to use from each conductor's cycle. Which doesn't preclude a surreptitious splicing from another performance in another year, but I couldn't speculate on that probability.


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## cheftimmyr

Furtwangler's 1954 Studio "Die Walkure" was next on the listen-list. I was curious if a studio version of Furty leading a Walkure performance would deliver the organic emotion and intensity that so enraptured me in his Tristan and the 1950 La Scala Ring Cycle (RAI is on my buy list still...). I believe that this was Furtwangler's last recording before he passed away, leaving a studio Ring Cycle tragically unfinished; I wonder how a finished Furty Cycle would have impacted the musical landscape and possibly stolen some of Solti's thunder in his landmark achievement which wouldn't be finished for another 11 years.

The VPO plays so well in this recording, and given the studio setting I was able to hear some layering in the orchestra that I normally miss on other live historical recordings. Furtwangler leads them well overall and there are moments I just closed my eyes lost in the music. One thing I did find odd was the very end of Act III the descending note progression was played staccato which sounded odd to me; I could be mistaken but I don't recall hearing that passage played in such a manner before. Up to that point, VPO and Furtwangler carried the last half of Act III beautifully.

The cast was good, not great, with one exception. I thought Leonie Rysanek's "Sieglinde" was excellent. She had the vocal weight to make the part soar when needed but brought a beautiful amount of depth and emotion. Really nice. Suthaus was good as "Siegmund" but sometimes it just felt like he was singing lines and he over rolled a lot of r's to me, which I hadn't noticed him do as Tristan; maybe the studio setting brought that to the forefront more than a live recording would but I found it overkill in some places. Martha Modl sang well enough as "Brunnhilde", she didn't get any help from Furtwangler who sauntered through the Ride of the Walkure's requiring Modl to have to hold onto some of the high notes a tad long, it seemed. Frantz's "Wotan" had nice voice but after Schorr and Hotter, you just don't get the depth of character and emotional dramatization that brings so many layers to Wotan.

The sound was really nice; balance between vocals and orchestra was on point and didn't hear one cough the entire recording! :lol:


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## gardibolt

Bill H. said:


> Probably always been true to some extent, even more now with the advent of digital recording and electronic splicing. An example of a historical performance that may be an exception to this is the 1953 Krauss Ring Cycle, since he only did it once at Bayreuth (Keilberth did the other that year) and there are no other Krauss Ring performances to theoretically splice into what we have there as his legacy. Rehearsal splices could also have been used, but I don't know if there were tapings of rehearsals in those years--in any case, splicing in a rehearsal tape could be quite audible if the acoustic of an empty Bayreuth is significantly different from one that's filled, especially with all the audience hackers and coughers that are notorious in those performances
> 
> OTOH, Krauss did ALL of the Parsifal performances that summer, so there are several from which the version that is now documented from that year could have been "assembled".
> 
> Assuming the other years in the 50s where there were two Cycles which were split among the two main conductors (like Keilberth and Kna), there would also have been only one performance on tape to use from each conductor's cycle. Which doesn't preclude a surreptitious splicing from another performance in another year, but I couldn't speculate on that probability.


Yes, I believe we discussed upthread many months ago that the beginning of Krauss' Siegfried from 1953 that we hear on CD now is actually borrowed from Keilberth's from 1953. My recollection is there was a bootleg LP many years ago that had the actual Krauss beginning taped off the radio broadcast, but for some reason the Keilberth opening has taken its place on all of the subsequent releases. I have no idea why this happened.


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## Azol

gardibolt said:


> Yes, I believe we discussed upthread many months ago that the beginning of Krauss' Siegfried from 1953 that we hear on CD now is actually borrowed from Keilberth's from 1953. My recollection is there was a bootleg LP many years ago that had the actual Krauss beginning taped off the radio broadcast, but for some reason the Keilberth opening has taken its place on all of the subsequent releases. I have no idea why this happened.


Wasn't it the other way around? Krauss' Act I of Siegfried appearing in 1953 Keilberth boxset.


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## DarkAngel

Azol said:


> Wasn't it the other way around? Krauss' Act I of Siegfried appearing in 1953 Keilberth boxset.


Indeed, you are correct sir discussed here when this boxset appeared


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## gardibolt

Well, it's even murkier than I recalled (and I guess I had it wrong that the old LP was the Krauss; it was actually the Keilberth). Here's what two people are claiming:



> A careful hearing of both the Krauss and Keilberth performances of the first Act of Siegfried from 1953 Bayreuth shows us that they are the same performance - coughs at the same place - same noise of a chair being moved right after the beginning. So the question was which conductor was correct?? I knew the one way to find out was to compare it to the Allegro-Royale release from the early 50s which, though purportedly by "Fritz Schreiber and the Dresden Orchestra" was actually an amateur job of recording the 1953 Keilberth cycle. The performance on the Allegro was definitely different so the answer is that the releases of the Keilberth Act One Siegfried since then are actually Krauss and the only way to get the actual Keilberth Siegfried Act One is to hunt up a copy of the Allegro LPs - good luck with that.


But we also have this:



> The first act of Siegfried on both the 1953 Krauss and Keilberth are the same performance - same coughs at the same time etc. So the question becomes which is it. I was able to solve it by playing the infamous Allegro Ring that was issued in early 1954 supposedly by Fritz Schreiber and the Dresden Orchestra. The performance was actually a very primitive transfer of the 1953 Bayreuth Keilberth Ring and the coughs in Siegfried act One match that of the supposed Krauss. Since it doesn't make sense that the person making the copy from the radio for the Allegro LPs would for some reason switch from the 1953 Keilberth and start recording the 1953 Krauss just for that Act, I would come up with the conclusion that the performance is from the Keilberth Ring.


Both comments from the same thread, here:

http://humanities.music.composers.wagner.narkive.com/DCPV43Pv/siegfried-bayreuth-1953

They're both listening to the same Allegro LPs, and coming to completely opposite conclusions. I have no idea who's right, but they agree that one of these performances is substituting for the other.

EDIT: On looking at that thread again, I see it's the _same person_ coming to completely opposite conclusions! Since the second quote is the more recent of the two, I guess he ended up deciding that Keilberth was substituted for Krauss' Act I.

EDIT 2: Here's contemporary confirmation that the Allegro LPs are in fact Keilberth's cast and recording of the Ring:

https://www.unz.org/Pub/SaturdayRev-1954apr10-00042

So I think that's as good as we're likely to get for confirmation that the Act I of Siegfried we have is Keilberth's, and Krauss's is apparently lost, especially in light of Cushing's Saturday Review article cited above.
1) Cushing, who apparently personally knew many of the principals including Hotter, Vinay and Resnik, has their confirmation that it's the Keilberth cast and performance on the Allegro LPs; he also cites Mödl as the Brünnhilde, and she was only in the Keilberth and not the Krauss Rings in 1953. It seems unlikely that he'd confuse Mödl and Varnay. They're pretty distinctive.
2) Cushing makes a convincing case that the source of the LPs was a tape of an AM radio transmission by an amateur, and not sourced from radio station tapes. There are many characteristics of radio sound and not proper source material, plus the recordist loses about 30 seconds every time he has to change a tape, and that's obviously not going to happen in a professional setup.
3) Although the correspondent who listened to the Allegro LPs in the Wagner discussion group at first thought that the recording was different than the "Krauss" Siegfried Act I a year later he stated that they were identical to the "Krauss." Either he changed his mind upon a second listening, or he forgot what he concluded on his original listening and contradicted himself. If we take him at his word, though, that seems to indicate he listened more closely two years ago and found that the same noises were present on the Allegro LPs and the "Krauss."
4) The correspondent's comments that it doesn't make sense for the anonymous recordist to tape all of Keilberth EXCEPT for Act I of Siegfried, and he taped Krauss for that instead seems like a reasonable conclusion to me.
So, the conclusion is that it's Keilberth's Act I, and Krauss's Siegfried for some reason has had Keilberth's Act I attached to it. Maybe the radio tapes for the Krauss Act I were damaged and since the cast was the same, they thought no one would know or notice the difference.

The one place that's still a little open to question to me is whether the correspondent that we're relying upon here actually went back and re-listened to the LPs to decide it was the same as the Krauss. But that's the best information we have unless someone has the Allegro LPs and can check it for us. I sure don't. I remember him posting under the name "Willem Orange" from rec.music.classical.recordings so I will contact him and ask him for clarification.


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## Bill H.

gardibolt said:


> Well, it's even murkier than I recalled (and I guess I had it wrong that the old LP was the Krauss; it was actually the Keilberth). Here's what two people are claiming:
> 
> But we also have this:
> 
> Both comments from the same thread, here:
> 
> http://humanities.music.composers.wagner.narkive.com/DCPV43Pv/siegfried-bayreuth-1953
> 
> They're both listening to the same Allegro LPs, and coming to completely opposite conclusions. I have no idea who's right, but they agree that one of these performances is substituting for the other.
> 
> EDIT: On looking at that thread again, I see it's the _same person_ coming to completely opposite conclusions! Since the second quote is the more recent of the two, I guess he ended up deciding that Keilberth was substituted for Krauss' Act I.
> 
> EDIT 2: Here's contemporary confirmation that the Allegro LPs are in fact Keilberth's cast and recording of the Ring:
> 
> https://www.unz.org/Pub/SaturdayRev-1954apr10-00042


The main reason I would have for doubting this person's (final) conclusion is the evidence on the Orfeo release of the Krauss Ring, which is the only commercial version that claims to be an authorized release from the Bavarian Radio master tape archives. In that release, the beginning of Siegfried is pretty much the one we've all come to know (in whatever guise), but also includes the opening drumroll which is cut off from all other commercial versions (those others always begin at the point with the bassoon chords).

If the beginning of the Keilberth Siegfried is that very same performance, I would conclude that it's the Keilberth-labeled releases which use the Krauss as the substitute.


----------



## gardibolt

If that's right, then the person claiming the Allegro LP is the same as the Krauss would need to be mistaken---not impossible, given the seemingly contradictory messages I quoted. We will see whether he responds to my inquiries.


----------



## Barbebleu

Ah well. That's another Ring ordered from Opera Depot. The 1970 Bayreuth Ring with Berit Lindholm conducted by Horst Stein. Took advantage of their 50% off sale.


----------



## Barbebleu

If anyone is interested here's a link to Holländer from Bayreuth 1970 with McIntyre, Rysanek, Talvela and Varviso conducting.

https://m.mixcloud.com/Jungfer_Mari...intyre-rysanek-talvela-varviso-bayreuth-1970/


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## Pugg

Barbebleu said:


> Ah well. That's another Ring ordered from Opera Depot. The 1970 Bayreuth Ring with Berit Lindholm conducted by Horst Stein. Took advantage of their 50% off sale.


On the whole Wagner collection 50% off


----------



## Bill H.

gardibolt said:


> If that's right, then the person claiming the Allegro LP is the same as the Krauss would need to be mistaken---not impossible, given the seemingly contradictory messages I quoted. We will see whether he responds to my inquiries.


A speculative, but I think plausible opposing case that the Siegfried Act I in these recordings is from the Keilberth performance is that Keilberth conducted the first Ring Cycle at Bayreuth that summer, as stated in the Bayreuth Festival archives:

http://www.bayreuther-festspiele.de/fsdb_en/spielplan/1953/index.htm

This is also confirmed in the notes to the Orfeo release of the Krauss. 
Given how Windgassen is off the beat for a few measures in the Forging Song, this being his first major appearance in the character, one could surmise that he didn't repeat the mistakes in the subsequent Cycle, which Krauss conducted. But again, that's purely speculation on my part. And the Orfeo notes state with no equivocation that the Siegfried performance dates from 10 August 1953.


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## gardibolt

Do the Orfeo notes even acknowledge the controversy, though? Were the booklet writers aware that these two recordings share an Act I?


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## Bill H.

gardibolt said:


> Do the Orfeo notes even acknowledge the controversy, though? Were the booklet writers aware that these two recordings share an Act I?


Noting that I have only scans of the booklet pages, not the physical product (CDs or book), but the answer is no. I looked for some commentary on it, but haven't found anything that hints at the substitution, one way or another.


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## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> ^^^^ Those are our friends at ZYX label super low price, you can also buy just the 51 Karajan Meister from that boxset for $9 Amazon USA sellers, look like this:


Just arrived this evening! I'm hoping to have it listened through by end of week...


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## Barbebleu

cheftimmyr said:


> Just arrived this evening! I'm hoping to have it listened through by end of week...


Enjoy. I have the Angel vinyl set of this. Digitally updated years later of course. I love this version and Schwarzkopf makes a lovely Eva. Karajan is less mannered at this point in his career and the whole thing flows like water.


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## Barbebleu

Just downloaded Das Rheingold, Hamburg 1952, Frantz, Windgassen, Greindl, Schock and Frick. Conducted by Wilhem Schüchter. I shall report in due course!


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## Barbebleu

Das Rheingold, Hamburg 1952. Wow. Ridiculously cheap from Opera Depot and easily one of the best Rheingolds I have heard. Frantz is a wonderfully authoritative Wotan and Windgassen is brilliant as Loge. The whole thing is amazingly well sung without a single weakness. Schüchter takes it at a nice pace, not too slow and not too fast which I think helps all the singers. Lots of good details from the orchestra too. I am a bit baffled as to what this actually is. I can't find any background info on the net. It was recorded in one day but it is not a live performance in that there is no audience. It might be a studio concert performance and there is a little tape hiss which makes me think it is an off-air recording but I'm really not sure. The sound quality is actually very good and everything is crystal clear. It cost me about £3 or so so there is really no excuse for not adding this to any Wagner collection.


----------



## cheftimmyr

Barbebleu said:


> Das Rheingold, Hamburg 1952. Wow. Ridiculously cheap from Opera Depot and easily one of the best Rheingolds I have heard. Frantz is a wonderfully authoritative Wotan and Windgassen is brilliant as Loge. The whole thing is amazingly well sung without a single weakness. Schüchter takes it at a nice pace, not too slow and not too fast which I think helps all the singers. Lots of good details from the orchestra too. I am a bit baffled as to what this actually is. I can't find any background info on the net. It was recorded in one day but it is not a live performance in that there is no audience. It might be a studio concert performance and there is a little tape hiss which makes me think it is an off-air recording but I'm really not sure. The sound quality is actually very good and everything is crystal clear. It cost me about £3 or so so there is really no excuse for not adding this to any Wagner collection.


"Buy, buy, buy"?


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## Barbebleu

cheftimmyr said:


> "Buy, buy, buy"?


Mos' def'. :lol:bbbbbbbbbbbbbbb


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## Barbebleu

Sorry to witter on again about the Hamburg Rheingold but it really is superb. Neidlinger's Alberich is just something else. I've heard many of his iterations and I think this is one of, if not, the best I've heard him. And again Windgassen's Loge is wonderfully sung and characterised. The transformations scene is a real treat. Again, apologies for banging on but it's a long time since I've been so enthused by Rheingold.


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## cheftimmyr

Any other Wagner recordings to be recommended on the Opera Depot sale? I've got the '64 Lohengrin and the '52 Hamburg Rheingold in the cart.... I haven't ordered much from OD in the past so was wondering if anyone had specific recs... thx!


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## DarkAngel

cheftimmyr said:


> Any other Wagner recordings to be recommended on the Opera Depot sale? I've got the '64 Lohengrin and the '52 Hamburg Rheingold in the cart.... I haven't ordered much from OD in the past so was wondering if anyone had specific recs... thx!


For opera depot always wait for sales of at least 50%, they are frequent. You get CDR with track listings in clear plastic sleeve, ships pretty fast USA.

The sound quality is wide ranging, always get Myto, Walhall, Orfeo label version first they will sound better, then go for opera depot for hard to find stuff. Go for some complete Rings, these two are winners, the live Karajan is different experience than studio set

The 71 Stein has many new voices including young Gwen Jones still fresh secure voiced, Ligendza as brunnhilde....



















Also I like these cheap compilations of famous versions of same part.....


----------



## DarkAngel

Did orfeo "sneak" a new 61 Tannhauser in on me, I thought the Myto was same performance but I am not sure now. The Orfeo is from Aug 3 a few nights after season opening which I think the Myto is (no exact date given in CD set) same cast but some comments that Aug 3 Orfeo is even better performance

Those averse to Greindl may want to avoid (HFT)


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## DarkAngel

1961 Bayreuth we see 24 yr old Grace Bumbry as Venus.......


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## howlingfantods

DarkAngel said:


> Did orfeo "sneak" a new 61 Tannhauser in on me, I thought the Myto was same performance but I now think they are not. The Orfeo is from Aug 3 a few nights after season opening which I think the Myto is (no exact date given in CD set) same cast but some comments that Aug 3 Orfeo is even better performance
> 
> Those averse to Greindl may want to avoid (HFT)


I'm not averse to Greindl; I'm averse to Greindl playing anything but a heavy. Nilsson once characterized him as the perfect Hagen because he sounds half human, and I agree wholeheartedly--he's absolutely superb as Hagen, Hunding, Fafner and the like, but comically miscast as a Sachs or Gurnemanz.


----------



## Woodduck

howlingfantods said:


> I'm not averse to Greindl; I'm averse to Greindl playing anything but a heavy. Nilsson once characterized him as the perfect Hagen because he sounds half human, and I agree wholeheartedly--he's absolutely superb as Hagen, Hunding, Fafner and the like, but comically miscast as a Sachs or Gurnemanz.


Indeed.

"Greindl" sounds like "Grendel." That should explain everything.


----------



## Faustian

Of course he sang other roles besides villains and characters in Wagner operas, and quite successfully. This snippet from an obituary fairly sums up my feelings as well.



> On the first evening of my first visit to the Salzburg Festival in 1951, I attended Die Zauberflote in the Felsenreitschule. The performance was conducted by Furtwangler and although the fabulous cast included Irmgard Seefried, Anton Dermota and Erich Kunz, the singer who impressed most was the bass Josef Greindl, whose large, deep and resonant voice exuded wisdom, authority and benevolence as Sarastro. That the same voice could express evil, hatred and contempt with equal conviction, I discovered at Bayreuth the following year, when as Hagen in Gotterdammerung he electrified the audience with the power of his singing as he summoned the Gibichung Vassals.
> 
> Sarastro and Hagen demonstrated the extreme limits of Greindl's wide repertory. He sang many parts, both serious and comic, that lay somewhere between. As Hans Sachs, the role of his Covent Garden debut in 1963, he brought out the human warmth, humour and native wit of the cobbler while his Rocco in Fidelio, which he also sang at Covent Garden, was acutely presented as a jovial rogue with an eye on the main chance. This power of characterisation easily compensated for a certain lack of intrinsic beauty in his black-toned voice.


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## Barbebleu

Greindl also sang a pretty good Daland.


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## howlingfantods

cheftimmyr said:


> Any other Wagner recordings to be recommended on the Opera Depot sale? I've got the '64 Lohengrin and the '52 Hamburg Rheingold in the cart.... I haven't ordered much from OD in the past so was wondering if anyone had specific recs... thx!


The Kleiber/Wenkoff/Ligendza Bayreuth Tristan is excellent. The Karajan/Kollo/Tomowo-Sintow Lohengrin is pretty decent too, it's better than his studio recording.


----------



## DarkAngel

howlingfantods said:


> *The Kleiber/Wenkoff/Ligendza Bayreuth Tristan is excellent*. The Karajan/Kollo/Tomowo-Sintow Lohengrin is pretty decent too, it's better than his studio recording.


No more rings (officially ringed out) or Parsifals, but I can use some more Tristans from 1965-77 especially Kleiber conducted, so I placed a small order to help Chefty and keep operadepot in the green......$11 each sale

Looks like Kleiber and Ligendza were a team both at Bayreuth and Vienna


----------



## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> No more rings (officially ringed out) or Parsifals, but I can use some more Tristans from 1965-77 especially Kleiber conducted, so I placed a small order to help Chefty and keep operadepot in the green......$11 each sale
> 
> Looks like Kleiber and Ligendza were a team both at Bayreuth and Vienna


Haha! Thanks for the support! Unfortunately my OperaDepot order is in triple-digits, I'm hoping I have the courage to hit the "buy" button in the cart tomorrow. Somehow I think I'll manage :lol:


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## mountmccabe

howlingfantods said:


> The Kleiber/Wenkoff/Ligendza Bayreuth Tristan is excellent.





DarkAngel said:


> No more rings (officially ringed out) or Parsifals, but I can use some more Tristans from 1965-77 especially Kleiber conducted, so I placed a small order to help Chefty and keep operadepot in the green......$11 each sale
> 
> Looks like Kleiber and Ligendza were a team both at Bayreuth and Vienna


This is my favorite _Tristan_.


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## Pugg

cheftimmyr said:


> Haha! Thanks for the support! Unfortunately my OperaDepot order is in triple-digits, I'm hoping I have the courage to hit the "buy" button in the cart tomorrow. Somehow I think I'll manage :lol:


Be quick, time is ticking ,sale ends midnight ( U.S time)


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## howlingfantods

DarkAngel said:


> No more rings (officially ringed out) or Parsifals, but I can use some more Tristans from 1965-77 especially Kleiber conducted, so I placed a small order to help Chefty and keep operadepot in the green......$11 each sale
> 
> Looks like Kleiber and Ligendza were a team both at Bayreuth and Vienna


I have the 1974 recording with Brilioth, not the 1975 and he's fine on the 1974. But Wenkoff is excellent, I'd definitely go for the pairing with Wenkoff over Brilioth. And I haven't heard this Hopf Tristan but he's one of my least favorite widely recorded heldentenors, being the fly in the ointment for the Karajan Meistersinger I, the Kna Lohengrin, the Konwitchny Tannhauser, the Kna 1955 Meistersinger, etc etc


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## gardibolt

Barbebleu said:


> Das Rheingold, Hamburg 1952. Wow. Ridiculously cheap from Opera Depot and easily one of the best Rheingolds I have heard. Frantz is a wonderfully authoritative Wotan and Windgassen is brilliant as Loge. The whole thing is amazingly well sung without a single weakness. Schüchter takes it at a nice pace, not too slow and not too fast which I think helps all the singers. Lots of good details from the orchestra too. I am a bit baffled as to what this actually is. I can't find any background info on the net. It was recorded in one day but it is not a live performance in that there is no audience. It might be a studio concert performance and there is a little tape hiss which makes me think it is an off-air recording but I'm really not sure. The sound quality is actually very good and everything is crystal clear. It cost me about £3 or so so there is really no excuse for not adding this to any Wagner collection.


wagnerdiscography.com says it's a studio recording from October 7, 1952 (they recorded it all in one day? that seems unlikely but I suppose that it's a way to contain costs). Apparently Walhall, Cantus Classics, and Gebhardt have released the recording. But, no, not much detail.


----------



## gardibolt

DarkAngel said:


> Did orfeo "sneak" a new 61 Tannhauser in on me, I thought the Myto was same performance but I am not sure now. The Orfeo is from Aug 3 a few nights after season opening which I think the Myto is (no exact date given in CD set) same cast but some comments that Aug 3 Orfeo is even better performance
> 
> Those averse to Greindl may want to avoid (HFT)


Yes, without looking back at the booklets, I am pretty sure that the Orfeo is from a different night than the Myto; I believe there were some opening night problems on the Myto that are resolved on the Orfeo so on the whole it's a better performance. Again this is from memory, but I think that's right.


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## mountmccabe

Once I finish the Goodall Ring, I am going to go to the 1953 Keilberth set next. It was a recent purchase and I'd like to see what I think (along with what it takes for me to listen to it even though it is on CD).

The other motivation for this is that Presto Classical has the Testament 1955 Keilberth on sale. And y'all have been pretty consistent at ranking this as one of the best Rings, so.


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## Bill H.

mountmccabe said:


> Once I finish the Goodall Ring, I am going to go to the 1953 Keilberth set next. It was a recent purchase and I'd like to see what I think (along with what it takes for me to listen to it even though it is on CD).
> 
> The other motivation for this is that Presto Classical has the Testament 1955 Keilberth on sale. And y'all have been pretty consistent at ranking this as one of the best Rings, so.


See if Berkshire Record Outlet has the 1955 Keilberth Testament set still in stock. They did have the individual operas available for awhile. Price might be reasonable to compare with Presto.


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## mountmccabe

Bill H. said:


> See if Berkshire Record Outlet has the 1955 Keilberth Testament set still in stock. They did have the individual operas available for awhile. Price might be reasonable to compare with Presto.


They have _Rheingold_ and _Siegfried_. Plus the second cycle _Gotterdammerung_ with Modl. The combined price for those three ($89.90) is just a few dollars less than the price at Presto right now ($92.43).


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## DarkAngel

mountmccabe said:


> They have _Rheingold_ and _Siegfried_. Plus the second cycle _Gotterdammerung_ with Modl. The combined price for those three ($89.90) is just a few dollars less than the price at Presto right now (*$92.43*).


That Testament sale price at Presto UK is lowest price I have ever seen for 55 Keilberth Ring, only one logical thing to do, buy buy buy

53 Keilberth Ring is far better value with very good mono sound, you absolutely must own both (once you hear them)


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## WildThing

The Keilberth 55 is on youtube for anyone wanting to sample it before throwing down that kind of cash on it.


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## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> That Testament sale price at Presto UK is lowest price I have ever seen for 55 Keilberth Ring, only one logical thing to do, buy buy buy
> 
> 53 Keilberth Ring is far better value with very good mono sound, you absolutely must own both (once you hear them)


DA, thoughts on the 1957 Testament Kempe Ring Cycle?


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## DarkAngel

cheftimmyr said:


> DA, thoughts on the 1957 Testament Kempe Ring Cycle?


The ROH Kempe Ring is generally not great sound compared to Bayreuth Rings, especially the 57 Knap Bayreuth which sounds great on Walhall label. The ROH cast contains some Bayreuth regulars but overall not quite as solid down the line, in 1960 Kempe finally takes the Bayreuth stage and brings some of the best ROH cast with him to blend with Bayreuth greats.......

I have that 57 Walhall Kempe Walkure but rarely listen as sound is not great and I have 57 Knap Ring


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## gardibolt

Yes, the sound quality on the ROH Kempe 1957 is pretty dire. I listened to it once and that was all I could take.


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## DarkAngel

cheftimmyr said:


> DA, thoughts on the 1957 Testament Kempe Ring Cycle?


Chefty I thought I just read somewhere that you placed a $100+ wagner order during operadepot sale, you are officially out of control ha ha :lol:


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## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> Chefty I thought I just read somewhere that you placed a $100+ wagner order during operadepot sale, you are officially out of control ha ha :lol:


Yes, certifiable! :lol:

My operadepot order has shipped and my presto Classical order has been piecing in; I finish HvK's Meister tonight!


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## gardibolt

I'm slowly working my way through The Cosima Era boxset (through the Dutchman CD and most of the way through the Tannhäuser CD. It's....unusual to say the least.


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## Scott in PA

I've been listening to the 1955 Keilberth Siegfried on You Tube. 

Question for you audio experts. My DVD player has a YT app so I access YT through it and of course my DVD is connected to my sound system. Will the Testament CD sound any different than what I'm hearing on YT, since both would be played back through the same sound system? 

Also, I've noticed a few missing bars in this recording, perhaps due to the original splicing of tapes. That would certainly detract a bit from putting this recording at the top of my list. Also, I think Windgassen sounds a bit tired (who wouldn't be?). I like him better in the '53 Krauss.


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## SixFootScowl

gardibolt said:


> I'm slowly working my way through *The Cosima Era boxset* (through the Dutchman CD and most of the way through the Tannhäuser CD. It's....unusual to say the least.


Fascinating! But way too historical for me:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CSFXPF2
And not complete operas. There is only one disk for the Hollander. No matter. It is of historical significance.


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## cheftimmyr

One of my latest additions to the library was this 1951 HvK "Die Meistersinger" which I picked up after numerous recommendations from other members. I'm really glad I have this recording to go back to as it reaffirms my opinion that of the HvK recordings I've heard, I prefer his early '50's recordings to his later Wagner work which comes across as overwrought to me at times. In fact, I'm trying to figure out how to sneak in the '52 Tristan with Modl since I enjoyed this recording so immensely!

The sound quality on the ZYX label was solid; I don't have another label to compare with but I'm not going to be looking. Through my modest setup I didn't have any complaints; I'm used to the coughing in most recordings and compared to others the distraction was minimal, not even worth mentioning to be honest.

Having not revisited this opera frequently I was struck by why I don't listen to this opera more. The score is absolutely divine, with some really nice plush-Wagner music. From the Prize Song, to the sublime Quintet, the intense "Jerum" of Hans Sachs and the layering in the choral/group vocals are all a joy to listen to and an example of genius virtuosity. The brooding vorspiel to Act 3 memorably stirs the listener to the underlying angst experienced by Sachs.... all held together by the magnificent Meistersinger Overture that reappears throughout the opera. This is all facilitated so well by HvK who I think shows some restraint in not dominating the score and lets "Wagner be Wagner".

The biggest miss in this performance was Hans Hopf's "Walther"... dude just jammed up the Prize Song with some major overemoting and towards the finale of the Prize Song in both instances he seemed to run out of steam and it almost seemed like HvK bailed him out by increasing the tempo to get him through it. Not cool; luckily the beauty contained in the writing of the Prize Song over-shone the performers ineptness. I'm sticking with Rudi Schock so far as my favorite Walther... any other suggestions would be welcomed!

Schwarzkopf sings a beautiful Eva but lacks the delicate innocence that Grummer brings... both sing the part beautifully but Grummer has my heart as Eva! I thought Edelmann sings well in this performance as Sachs; he doesn't reach the acme of Schorr but I didn't hear much wobble and he brought a certain intensity to the part which was a nice layer for Sachs. If only I could sub Edelmann for Frantz in the Kempe recording.... :angel:

Gerhard Unger's "David" was really spot on for me so I didn't want to not mention that...

So glad I scooped this up and have it on the shelf in future! I have the Kube's and Kempe as well as this HvK, any other suggestions for "must-have Meisters" would be appreciated! (I know there's some mentions on a few threads but I can't keep them all straight anymore )


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## Woodduck

cheftimmyr said:


> View attachment 93417
> Schwarzkopf sings a beautiful Eva but lacks the delicate innocence that Grummer brings... both sing the part beautifully but Grummer has my heart as Eva!


I feel that Schwarzkopf and Grummer are the alpha and omega of German lyric sopranos. Schwarzkopf's subtle sophistication made her the ideal Strauss heroine (both Johann and Richard!), while Grummer's radiant innocence was perfect for Wagner's Eva, Elsa and Elisabeth - and, of course, Weber's Agathe. Can anyone today come close to equaling either of them?


----------



## Bill H.

Woodduck said:


> I feel that Schwarzkopf and Grummer are the alpha and omega of German lyric sopranos. Schwarzkopf's subtle sophistication made her the ideal Strauss heroine (both Johann and Richard!), while Grummer's radiant innocence was perfect for Wagner's Eva, Elsa and Elisabeth - and, of course, Weber's Agathe. Can anyone today come close to equaling either of them?


Of course, you can get BOTH of those sublime ladies together on the HvK-conducted recording of Humperdinck's "Hansel und Gretel," which I've come to cherish over the years.



cheftimmyr said:


> View attachment 93417
> 
> 
> So glad I scooped this up and have it on the shelf in future! I have the Kube's and Kempe as well as this HvK, any other suggestions for "must-have Meisters" would be appreciated! (I know there's some mentions on a few threads but I can't keep them all straight anymore )


Would there be any interest in the 1949 live Munich Meistersinger, the one conducted by Eugen Jochum with Hans Hotter as Sachs? It also has Günter Treptow as Walther, Annelies Kupfer as Eva, Paul Kuen(!) as David, and one of the earliest performances by Benno Kuschke as Beckmesser.


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## DarkAngel

Woodduck said:


> I feel that Schwarzkopf and Grummer are the alpha and omega of German lyric sopranos. Schwarzkopf's subtle sophistication made her the ideal Strauss heroine (both Johann and Richard!), while Grummer's radiant innocence was perfect for Wagner's Eva, Elsa and Elisabeth - and, of course, Weber's Agathe. Can anyone today come close to equaling either of them?


Grummer and Schock in Meistersingers, Walther proclaims his love for Eva in "prize song"


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## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> Grummer and Schock in Meistersingers, Walther proclaims his love for Eva in "prize song"


Such a cute couple.


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## Barbebleu

Wood duck, playing fast and loose with your definition of the word "cute".


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## Barbebleu

Bill H. said:


> Of course, you can get BOTH of those sublime ladies together on the HvK-conducted recording of Humperdinck's "Hansel und Gretel," which I've come to cherish over the years.
> 
> Would there be any interest in the 1949 live Munich Meistersinger, the one conducted by Eugen Jochum with Hans Hotter as Sachs? It also has Günter Treptow as Walther, Annelies Kupfer as Eva, Paul Kuen(!) as David, and one of the earliest performances by Benno Kuschke as Beckmesser.


The Humperdinck is wonderful and the Jochum is very good for its age. You wouldn't be disappointed with either in your collection.


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## Barbebleu

Bill H. said:


> Would there be any interest in the 1949 live Munich Meistersinger, the one conducted by Eugen Jochum with Hans Hotter as Sachs? It also has Günter Treptow as Walther, Annelies Kupfer as Eva, Paul Kuen(!) as David, and one of the earliest performances by Benno Kuschke as Beckmesser.


Are you thinking of doing a revamp of this Bill?


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## cheftimmyr

Bill H. said:


> Of course, you can get BOTH of those sublime ladies together on the HvK-conducted recording of Humperdinck's "Hansel und Gretel," which I've come to cherish over the years.
> 
> *Would there be any interest in the 1949 live Munich Meistersinger,* the one conducted by Eugen Jochum with Hans Hotter as Sachs? It also has Günter Treptow as Walther, Annelies Kupfer as Eva, Paul Kuen(!) as David, and one of the earliest performances by Benno Kuschke as Beckmesser.


Nice! Didn't know about that performance... You had me at "Hotter as Sachs"!


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## howlingfantods

Bill H. said:


> Of course, you can get BOTH of those sublime ladies together on the HvK-conducted recording of Humperdinck's "Hansel und Gretel," which I've come to cherish over the years.
> 
> Would there be any interest in the 1949 live Munich Meistersinger, the one conducted by Eugen Jochum with Hans Hotter as Sachs? It also has Günter Treptow as Walther, Annelies Kupfer as Eva, Paul Kuen(!) as David, and one of the earliest performances by Benno Kuschke as Beckmesser.


Oof, going from heaven to hell, from talking about Schwarzkopf and Grummer to Kupfer on the Jochum.

I personally put Janowitz on the same level as Schwarzkopf and Grummer for this role, and Studer not far behind. Seefried is known more as a Mozartian but she recorded a wonderful Eva on the Bohm 1944.


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## Bill H.

Barbebleu said:


> Are you thinking of doing a revamp of this Bill?


I did one a few years ago, thanks to a backchannel 1st gen copy (as told to me) of the original Bavarian Radio tape. But it had some damaged sections that had to be patched with an out of print commercial copy. It's available here, in both long file and CD track formats, but mp3 only (high bitrate, though):

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByTWd_3f2RpSemZ0UU43dWIwZTQ

It could probably use a refresh now that I have newer software, but it was such a PITA to put together the first time I'm not sure it's worth a do-over. But so far as I'm aware it may be the only decently recorded live performance of a Meistersinger with Hotter as Sachs--the ca. 1956 Bayreuth one I think is in horrible condition, which is too bad since it features Windgassen as Walther.


----------



## howlingfantods

Bill H. said:


> I did one a few years ago, thanks to a backchannel 1st gen copy (as told to me) of the original Bavarian Radio tape. But it had some damaged sections that had to be patched with an out of print commercial copy. It's available here, in both long file and CD track formats, but mp3 only (high bitrate, though):
> 
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByTWd_3f2RpSemZ0UU43dWIwZTQ
> 
> It could probably use a refresh now that I have newer software, but it was such a PITA to put together the first time I'm not sure it's worth a do-over. But so far as I'm aware it may be the only decently recorded live performance of a Meistersinger with Hotter as Sachs--the ca. 1956 Bayreuth one I think is in horrible condition, which is too bad since it features Windgassen as Walther.


My copy of the 1956 from M&A is pretty bad for its era but I think it's listenable. It's held back more by Cluytens' unsympathetic take on the material than the sound, for me. Unfortunate since it is certainly better (although not ideally) cast than the Jochum, who by the way I also am not particularly impressed with in this material. In addition to Hotter's Sachs, you also get a very nice pair of lovers in Windgassen and Brouwenstijn. But the man with the stick is the most important performer for me for this piece.


----------



## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> Sounds like a good price, Testament label is never "cheap" even on sale prices......
> 
> Some time ago we discussed here that from 52-58 they performed two Rings each year at Bayreuth, and there exists two more stereo Testament operas from the other 55 Ring.....so a total of six Ring operas are available for purchase:


So, anyone like to weigh in on how essential the Modl Walkure and Gotterdammerung are? In light of the Testamnet sale I'm conflicted as to whether or not I should buy now... (the quoted post is #1921 from this thread)


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## DarkAngel

^^^^ I slightly prefer the Varnay brunnhilde versions in the 55 boxset, but remember these two Modl 55 performances are also stereo so that makes them mandatory purchases with iconic cast, since they are on sale I think you know what must be done.......


----------



## Pugg

Opera Depot has a Karajan sale, 60% off, two new titles included.
( Free download from Don Carlo also)


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## Barbebleu

Pugg said:


> Opera Depot has a Karajan sale, 60% off, two new titles included.
> ( Free download from Don Carlo also)


Yep. Got them! Ah well, got to feed that habit!


----------



## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> I think I have found Flagstad's best liebestod, comes from 1949 radio recital with Set Svanholm of all wagner material, you can tell from the early vocal swells at 1:23 and 1:36 that she is in the zone and will really let go, really captures the building emotional climax and glorious transfiguration to transcend mortal bounds
> 
> Since this is recital she is well rested and can really exert herself, Naxos CD has very good sound of this event


Have to agree with DA, and thank for the recommendation, on this Naxos Flagstad/Svanholm recital release. Audio quality is great, and her Liebestod is divine; vocally pristine and pure. The recital setting allows for a great balance between vocals and orchestra which sometimes gets a little muddy on some live recordings. I hadn't heard Flagstad sing "Senta" before but I should have guessed that she would nail that part as well. Really cool to have her perform Senta's Ballad.

Svanholm sings a nice prize song which, having just listened to the '51 HvK recently, assures that melody will be in my mind for the next 72hours minimum! He doesn't have the lyrical sweetness of Schock singing the prize song, but the tone is strong and steady which is a vast upgrade from the Hopf. Unfortunately Jess Thomas IS Lohengrin for me so Svanholm's "In fernem land" doesn't blow me away, but it's appreciable.

The Venusberg Music was a nice addition to the recital program as well....

Verdict for anyone still on the fence: "Buy, buy buy"! :lol:


----------



## Woodduck

cheftimmyr said:


> Have to agree with DA, and thank for the recommendation, on this Naxos Flagstad/Svanholm recital release. Audio quality is great, and her Liebestod is divine; vocally pristine and pure. The recital setting allows for a great balance between vocals and orchestra which sometimes gets a little muddy on some live recordings. I hadn't heard Flagstad sing "Senta" before but I should have guessed that she would nail that part as well. Really cool to have her perform Senta's Ballad.
> 
> Svanholm sings a nice prize song which, having just listened to the '51 HvK recently, assures that melody will be in my mind for the next 72hours minimum! He doesn't have the lyrical sweetness of Schock singing the prize song, but the tone is strong and steady which is a vast upgrade from the Hopf. Unfortunately Jess Thomas IS Lohengrin for me so Svanholm's "In fernem land" doesn't blow me away, but it's appreciable.
> 
> The Venusberg Music was a nice addition to the recital program as well....
> 
> Verdict for anyone still on the fence: "Buy, buy buy"! :lol:


I wonder whether audiences of the '30s and '40s ever heard the last chords of Wagner's operas. Richard Strauss called _Tristan_'s "the most beautifully orchestrated chord in music."


----------



## amfortas

Woodduck said:


> I wonder whether audiences of the '30s and '40s ever heard the last chords of Wagner's operas. Richard Strauss called _Tristan_'s "the most beautifully orchestrated chord in music."


Actually, "the most beautifully orchestrated B major chord."

I guess he left some wiggle room.


----------



## Woodduck

amfortas said:


> Actually, "the most beautifully orchestrated B major chord."
> 
> I guess he left some wiggle room.


Probably looking forward to his own next attempt.


----------



## mountmccabe

cheftimmyr said:


> Have to agree with DA, and thank for the recommendation, on this Naxos Flagstad/Svanholm recital release. Audio quality is great, and her Liebestod is divine; vocally pristine and pure. The recital setting allows for a great balance between vocals and orchestra which sometimes gets a little muddy on some live recordings. I hadn't heard Flagstad sing "Senta" before but I should have guessed that she would nail that part as well. Really cool to have her perform Senta's Ballad.
> 
> Svanholm sings a nice prize song which, having just listened to the '51 HvK recently, assures that melody will be in my mind for the next 72hours minimum! He doesn't have the lyrical sweetness of Schock singing the prize song, but the tone is strong and steady which is a vast upgrade from the Hopf. Unfortunately Jess Thomas IS Lohengrin for me so Svanholm's "In fernem land" doesn't blow me away, but it's appreciable.
> 
> The Venusberg Music was a nice addition to the recital program as well....
> 
> Verdict for anyone still on the fence: "Buy, buy buy"! :lol:


OK, I'm adding that to my order, especially since the Testament Keilberth 1955 Ring dropped another dollar. Plus, it's fun to hear from San Francisco Opera's history.

Flagstad and Svanholm were in the midst of a run of Tristan und Isolde (William Steinberg conducting), and were about to start a few performances of _Die Walküre_ (also Steinberg).

Flagstad's SFO debut was in 1935-36, singing all three Brünnhildes under Artur Bodanzky, with Lauritz Melchior (there are some iconic photos of them from this production). Her previous SFO performances as Isolde (1936-37 and 1937-38 under Fritz Reiner, and 1939-40) were also with Melchior; and she would be back the following season with Ramon Vinay (with Sigurd Bjoerling as Kurwenal).

Svanholm's SFO debut was as Lohengrin in 1946-47, with Astrid Varnay as Elsa. He would also sing the both Siegfrieds, Otello, Tristan (with Helen Traubel), Walther von Stolzing, and Radames, and after this concert would go on to sing Don Jose, Florestan, and Parsifal.


----------



## Barbebleu

mountmccabe said:


> OK, I'm adding that to my order, especially since the Testament Keilberth 1955 Ring dropped another dollar. Plus, it's fun to hear from San Francisco Opera's history.
> 
> Flagstad and Svanholm were in the midst of a run of Tristan und Isolde (William Steinberg conducting), and were about to start a few performances of _Die Walküre_ (also Steinberg).
> 
> Flagstad's SFO debut was in 1935-36, singing all three Brünnhildes under Artur Bodanzky, with Lauritz Melchior (there are some iconic photos of them from this production). Her previous SFO performances as Isolde (1936-37 and 1937-38 under Fritz Reiner, and 1939-40) were also with Melchior; and she would be back the following season with Ramon Vinay (with Sigurd Bjoerling as Kurwenal).
> 
> Svanholm's SFO debut was as Lohengrin in 1946-47, with Astrid Varnay as Elsa. He would also sing the both Siegfrieds, Otello, Tristan (with Helen Traubel), Walther von Stolzing, and Radames, and after this concert would go on to sing Don Jose, Florestan, and Parsifal.


Nice info.bbbbbbbbbbbbbbb


----------



## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> ^^^^ I slightly prefer the Varnay brunnhilde versions in the 55 boxset, but remember these two Modl 55 performances are also stereo so that makes them mandatory purchases with iconic cast, since they are on sale I think you know what must be done.......


Ordered... <sigh>.... gonna have to give the bank account a rest soon; after another Pristine order methinks


----------



## DarkAngel

cheftimmyr said:


> Ordered... <sigh>.... gonna have to give the bank account a rest soon; after another Pristine order methinks


There is yet another reason to get these two supplements to 55 Keilberth boxset for Gotterdammerung we have rare Hans Hotter sung Gunther role.......

Can you imagine anyone today singing Wotan/Wanderer/Gunther in same Ring?












> while Hans Hotter, the production's Wotan/Wanderer from 1952, took on the role of Gunther, one of the other Ring roles which (along with a rare Hunding in New York at the strange behest of Rudolf Bing) he occasionally undertook. The reason for Hotter's appearance as the Gibichung leader appears to have been to allow Hermann Uhde, the production's regular Gunther, to settle into the new production of Der fliegende Holländer (available on Testament SBT21384) opening that year - although Hotter himself also sang the Dutchman that year


----------



## gardibolt

cheftimmyr said:


> Have to agree with DA, and thank for the recommendation, on this Naxos Flagstad/Svanholm recital release. Audio quality is great, and her Liebestod is divine; vocally pristine and pure. The recital setting allows for a great balance between vocals and orchestra which sometimes gets a little muddy on some live recordings. I hadn't heard Flagstad sing "Senta" before but I should have guessed that she would nail that part as well. Really cool to have her perform Senta's Ballad.
> 
> Svanholm sings a nice prize song which, having just listened to the '51 HvK recently, assures that melody will be in my mind for the next 72hours minimum! He doesn't have the lyrical sweetness of Schock singing the prize song, but the tone is strong and steady which is a vast upgrade from the Hopf. Unfortunately Jess Thomas IS Lohengrin for me so Svanholm's "In fernem land" doesn't blow me away, but it's appreciable.
> 
> The Venusberg Music was a nice addition to the recital program as well....
> 
> Verdict for anyone still on the fence: "Buy, buy buy"! :lol:


Bought, bought, bought and yes it is quite wonderful.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Here's a good historical one for ya:








https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004LOT6A6/
Rose Bampton, Max Lorenz, Lubomir Vichegonov, Helen Traubel, Joel Berglund, Kerstin Thorborg 
Metropolitan Chorus and Orchestra, Fritz Stiedery


----------



## interestedin

cheftimmyr said:


> I hadn't heard Flagstad sing "Senta" before but I should have guessed that she would nail that part as well. Really cool to have her perform Senta's Ballad.


In a way "cool" seems appropriate for that performance...I have repeatedly tried to like Flagstad's Senta's Ballad, but she sounds so cold and stiff in that role. For me she's not credible as the insane girl that Senta is. Not in the same league as (for example) Varnay. Maybe that's the reason Flagstad sang 188 Isoldes but only 12 Sentas?


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## cheftimmyr

interestedin said:


> In a way "cool" seems appropriate for that performance...I have repeatedly tried to like Flagstad's Senta's Ballad, but she sounds so cold and stiff in that role. For me she's not credible as the insane girl that Senta is. Not in the same league as (for example) Varnay. Maybe that's the reason Flagstad sang 188 Isoldes but only 12 Sentas?


But "cool" to have as a recorded document. Varnay for sure brings more raw emotion to the part, but having a singer as proficient as Flagstad singing Senta is "cool" to me...


----------



## SixFootScowl

Check this out:


















https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008MYYODK/


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## Woodduck

cheftimmyr said:


> But "cool" to have as a recorded document. Varnay for sure brings more raw emotion to the part, but having a singer as proficient as Flagstad singing Senta is "cool" to me...


A bit of Senta's ballad opens this delightful talk in which Flagstad gives advice to young singers who want to sing Wagner. Her speaking voice is itself magnificent, but the greatest thrill for me comes at the end, when she sings, as if standing right in front of us, some phrases from Brunnhilde's announcement of Siegmund's death. I think this really captures the sound of her voice as one would have heard it in life. Its deep resonance, majestic calm, and uncanny warmth/coolness, evocative of immense fjords and snowy peaks and the midnight sun, is something incomparable, almost otherworldly, and, for me, almost unbearably beautiful.


----------



## howlingfantods

interestedin said:


> In a way "cool" seems appropriate for that performance...I have repeatedly tried to like Flagstad's Senta's Ballad, but she sounds so cold and stiff in that role. For me she's not credible as the insane girl that Senta is. Not in the same league as (for example) Varnay. Maybe that's the reason Flagstad sang 188 Isoldes but only 12 Sentas?


Yeah, I'm with you on this one. Flagstad is far too marmoreal for the role for what I'm looking for--I generally want my Sentas to be youthful and excitable--almost hysterical. Like the crazier end of what I want from a Sieglinde. Flagstad is all cool reserve, which can work for Brunnhilde and Isolde (although this is also why I prefer Nilsson's Brunnhilde and Isolde), but isn't great for Senta.

Rysanek is one of my favorites in the role (as she is one of my favorite Sieglindes). One performer I wish I had a recording of as Senta is Julia Varady, whose Sieglinde on the Sawallisch/Bavarian Opera Ring is certainly fairly intense and crazed. Apparently she did a video recording with Sawallisch, Hale and Seiffert but it was only released on laserdisc and VHS


----------



## cheftimmyr

Woodduck said:


> A bit of Senta's ballad opens this delightful talk in which Flagstad gives advice to young singers who want to sing Wagner. Her speaking voice is itself magnificent, but the greatest thrill for me comes at the end, when she sings, as if standing right in front of us, some phrases from Brunnhilde's announcement of Siegmund's death. I think this really captures the sound of her voice as one would have heard it in life. Its deep resonance, majestic calm, and uncanny warmth/coolness, evocative of immense fjords and snowy peaks and the midnight sun, is something incomparable, almost otherworldly, and, for me, almost unbearably beautiful.


Definitely "cool"! :tiphat:


----------



## cheftimmyr

Has anyone noticed that Pristine has the 1955 Keilberth Dutchman with Uhde and Varnay? I had never seen this in their Wagner selections before so wasn't sure if it was a new edition.

DA do you have this? Thoughts?


----------



## DarkAngel

cheftimmyr said:


> Has anyone noticed that Pristine has the 1955 Keilberth Dutchman with Uhde and Varnay? I had never seen this in their Wagner selections before so wasn't sure if it was a new edition.
> 
> DA do you have this? Thoughts?
> 
> View attachment 93588


I had seen it before, but I already owned the stereo Testament version which sounds great, I suspect the Pristine XR is even better sound.......both Dutchies from 55 season (Keilberth & Knap) are excellent worthy versions, Knap has slower tempo but great Eric in Windgassen


----------



## Pugg

2 New Parsifal's at Opera depot

Wagner: Parsifal - Vinay, Mödl, Greindl, Fischer-Dieskau, Hotter; Knappertsbusch. Bayreuth, 1956


Wagner: Parsifal - Kollo, Randová, Sotin, Weikl, Mazura, Ridderbusch; Stein. Bayreuth, 1977


----------



## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> I had seen it before, but I already owned the stereo Testament version which sounds great, I suspect the Pristine XR is even better sound.......both Dutchies from 55 season (Keilberth & Knap) are excellent worthy versions, Knap has slower tempo but great Eric in Windgassen


I also have the Testament and didn't want to double-up unless absolutely necessary...


----------



## Barbebleu

Pugg said:


> 2 New Parsifal's at Opera depot
> 
> Wagner: Parsifal - Vinay, Mödl, Greindl, Fischer-Dieskau, Hotter; Knappertsbusch. Bayreuth, 1956
> 
> Wagner: Parsifal - Kollo, Randová, Sotin, Weikl, Mazura, Ridderbusch; Stein. Bayreuth, 1977


Also free download of Parsifal, Covent Garden 1973 conducted by Horenstein with Brilioth, Shuard, Talvela.


----------



## howlingfantods

Barbebleu said:


> Also free download of Parsifal, Covent Garden 1973 conducted by Horenstein with Brilioth, Shuard, Talvela.


This is one of the recordings highest on my wishlist for Pristine or someone to do their black magic restoration on, one of my favorite conductors performing my favorite work. It sounds like a very special performance but it's a hard listen with how bad the bootleg sound quality is.


----------



## cheftimmyr

Curious if anyone else is delving into some rad Parsifal recordings this weekend... (I seem to recall Barbie listening on Easter holidays)

These are on my docket for the weekend!


----------



## Barbebleu

cheftimmyr said:


> Curious if anyone else is delving into some rad Parsifal recordings this weekend... (I seem to recall Barbie listening on Easter holidays)
> 
> These are on my docket for the weekend!
> 
> View attachment 93608
> 
> 
> View attachment 93607


Yep. Munich 1977. Sawallisch, King, Denize and Sotin. Awfully good.


----------



## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> Yep. Munich 1977. Sawallisch, King, Denize and Sotin. Awfully good.


^^^^ Free download at operadepot.........










Took a flyer on this one, some new names and powerful Sawallisch conducting with very good sound, Parsifal sale operadepot

Also some people mentioned this Tristan recently which I now really love, great sound quality (commercial grade) and Kleiber is on his game really highlighting orchestral themes, high quality singing lead by Ligendza who also sang brunnhilde a couple years at Bayreuth in early 1970s, definitely a buy buy...........


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> ^^^^ Free download at operadepot.........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Took a flyer on this one, some new names and powerful Sawallisch conducting with very good sound, Parsifal sale operadepot


I bought this before Andrew was offering it free. but it was only about £5 so I'm not bothered. Well worth the money. I've got the Tristan too so I'm now looking forward to hearing it. Incidentally there is a Parsifal from Paris the year before the Sawallisch with Nadine Denize as Kundry and Jon Vickers as Parsifal. Yes, Opera Depot have it.


----------



## cheftimmyr

Playing catchup on writing out my last few recordings I've gone through.

This was a continuation from the Walter Die Walkure Act 1 which I had purchased in a Pristine order. That was a mesmerizing listening experience for me so I was thrilled when some members here let me know there was an Act II recording as well, so I scooped up the Naxos release.

Mark Obert-Thorn did a good job with the restoration; only slight crackles and pops in the distant background. There were moments during Act II when it felt as if Hans Hotter was singing directly to me; such audio clarity I wasn't necessarily expecting so it was a nice surprise.

Hearing an early Hotter interpretation of Wotan was really interesting for me. Vocally he was spot on, but having heard some of his really dynamic Wotan's of the '50's it was eye opening to see how much Wotan evolved for him and the emotional depth that grew over time; the subtleties in his discourse with Brunnhilde to even in the smallest details, as when Wotan dismisses Hunding with "Geh! Geh!". I have worked backwards with Hotter's Wotan, going from '50-'60's now back to 1938. An educational and enlightening experience for me.

Melchior's Siegmund continues to be the benchmark for me; the emotional tension in Scene IV which he sings with, when the fate motif sounds, is both haunting and full of yearning as he rejects Brunnhilde offer to bring him to Walhall as he has to leave Sieglinde behind.

Marvelous recording!


----------



## cheftimmyr

Last Easter weekend I priortized 2 Parsifal recordings because, well, it was Easter! I began with this Leinsdorf recording of Act II with Melchior and Flagstad. I was really excited to hear both of the principals, as this was my first time hearing each in these roles.

This recording release was a bit of a challenge for me; not unlistenable at all but some definite distractions that weren't ideal. For the first half of the recorded material there was a recurring noise that sounded like the spinning of an uneven/warped LP. There was also some wash out which made it hard to really be able to form an opinion on the orchestra as a whole. Leinsdorf overall didn't seem to plumb the depths that Knappertsbusch or Krauss have taken me to; there were a few moments where the playing and tempo seemed almost "jaunty", which I just attributed to the maestro's interpretation.

Flagstad showed moments of brilliance after what, for me, was a slow start to Act II. She seemed to become more engaged as the Act progressed and by the time of her encounter with Melchior there was some good chemistry. Unfortunately for Melchior, he was barely audible when he first arrived with the flower maidens. Again, distracting so Im not criticizing him at all; just limitations of the recording. After hearing Melchior's Siegmund, Siegfried and Tristan, his Parsifal is my least favorite; based off this performance only. Vocally there was nothing in question, he just didn't bring the emotional connection that Thomas or Vickers have conveyed in my experience thus far. I will have to come back to this recording down the road to see if my thoughts or impressions have changed at all.

My overall impression is that the recording quality most likely has muddled the principals and orchestra somewhat; not allowing the fullness of this master work to be conveyed in total.


----------



## Azol

cheftimmyr said:


> View attachment 93720
> 
> 
> Playing catchup on writing out my last few recordings I've gone through.
> 
> This was a continuation from the Walter Die Walkure Act 1 which I had purchased in a Pristine order. That was a mesmerizing listening experience for me so I was thrilled when some members here let me know there was an Act II recording as well, so I scooped up the Naxos release.


Thank you for your insights on this Naxos release, going to order it soon.

Is there any recommended (fron your and others' experience) complete Die Walküre recording with Melchior? Probably the one from The Met, Feb 1940 (also with Hotter)?


----------



## cheftimmyr

Azol said:


> Thank you for your insights on this Naxos release, going to order it soon.
> 
> Is there any recommended (fron your and others' experience) complete Die Walküre recording with Melchior? Probably the one from The Met, Feb 1940 (also with Hotter)?


The 1940 Leinsdorf feature Julius Huehn as Wotan; sadly no Hotter. This recording via Pristine is fantastic, highly recommended. Melchior, Lawrence and Flagstad are exceptional.


----------



## cheftimmyr

I'll have my thoughts on the '64 Parsifal (Vickers) up soon, hopefully... in he meantime I did an inventory of what I have in line to listen next and thought I'd share... anyone else want to share what they have on deck? A few of these aren't historic era but most are...

'43 Furtwangler Die Meistersinger 
'52 Schuchter Das Reingold (Hamburg)
'55 Keilberth Die Walkure & Gotterdammerung (Modl)
'60 Knap Die Meistersinger 
'64 Keilberth Lohengrin
'65 Bohm Lohengrin 
'67-'70 Karajan Ring Cycle (Salzburg)
'71 Stein Ring Cycle 
'76 Kleiber Tristan 

The list I think will never end....


----------



## Barbebleu

cheftimmyr said:


> I'll have my thoughts on the '64 Parsifal (Vickers) up soon, hopefully... in he meantime I did an inventory of what I have in line to listen next and thought I'd share... anyone else want to share what they have on deck? A few of these aren't historic era but most are...
> 
> '43 Furtwangler Die Meistersinger
> '52 Schuchter Das Reingold (Hamburg)
> '55 Keilberth Die Walkure & Gotterdammerung (Modl)
> '60 Knap Die Meistersinger
> '64 Kleiber Lohengrin
> '65 Bohm Lohengrin
> '67-'70 Karajan Ring Cycle (Salzburg)
> '71 Stein Ring Cycle
> '76 Kleiber Tristan
> 
> The list I think will never end....


Nice list Chef. I should visit a few of these myself.


----------



## howlingfantods

cheftimmyr said:


> I'll have my thoughts on the '64 Parsifal (Vickers) up soon, hopefully... in he meantime I did an inventory of what I have in line to listen next and thought I'd share... anyone else want to share what they have on deck? A few of these aren't historic era but most are...
> 
> '43 Furtwangler Die Meistersinger
> '52 Schuchter Das Reingold (Hamburg)
> '55 Keilberth Die Walkure & Gotterdammerung (Modl)
> '60 Knap Die Meistersinger
> *'64 Kleiber Lohengrin*
> '65 Bohm Lohengrin
> '67-'70 Karajan Ring Cycle (Salzburg)
> '71 Stein Ring Cycle
> '76 Kleiber Tristan
> 
> The list I think will never end....


Kleiber has a recording from 1964? That seems very early for him (and obviously far too late for Erich), and I wasn't aware of a Kleiber Lohengrin.


----------



## DarkAngel

^^^^ I think Chefty means 64 Keilberth Lohengrin......










Will take some time to work through that new wagner stack, I must resort to re-listening to current collection


----------



## howlingfantods

DarkAngel said:


> ^^^^ I think Chefty means 64 Keilberth Lohengrin......


Oh. Too bad, that post sent me searching fiendishly for what I thought was a recently unearthed Kleiber recording.


----------



## cheftimmyr

howlingfantods said:


> Oh. Too bad, that post sent me searching fiendishly for what I thought was a recently unearthed Kleiber recording.


Sorry! Indeed, DA is correct... Keilberth. (Still learning to proofread when autocorrect is enabled)


----------



## amfortas

Azol said:


> Is there any recommended (fron your and others' experience) complete Die Walküre recording with Melchior? Probably the one from The Met, Feb 1940 (also with Hotter)?


This a favorite of mine, and of historical significance:










The Metropolitan Opera broadcast of December 6, 1941, the day before Pearl Harbor, featured Helen Traubel's role debut as Brünnhilde, Alexander Kipnis's Met role debut as Hunding, and, as Sieglinde, stepping in for an indisposed Lotte Lehmann, a twenty-three-year-old soprano who had never appeared on any stage: Astrid Varnay.

Melchior, Traubel, and Varnay outdo themselves, with moments of white heat under Erich Leinsdorf's hard-driven conducting. The weak link, sadly, is Friedrich Schorr, in his final Wagner broadcast--far past his prime. That, and the scrappy sonics, may keep this recording from being a top choice. But it nonetheless holds a special place in my affections.


----------



## cheftimmyr

This had been burning a hole in my listen pile, so I took the Easter holiday to justify prioritizing it.

I think more than any other work of Wagner's, Parsifal is an immersive experience. The more I listen to and explore this work, the more I realize the depths to plumb are probably unending. A completely moving master work and with Knappy holding the baton we are always in good hands. (I believe this was Knap's last recorded Parsifal as well as his last public performance period.)

The biggest reason for adding this to my library was the draw of hearing Vickers sing the lead role. He did not disappoint and delivered a performance that started with a Parsifal brimming with the impetuous ignorance (foolishness) of a swan killer and finishing with awe-inspiring climax of enlightenment and destiny. Vocally and dramatically he was a joy to hear. I love Jess Thomas in the '62 and now I've got another interpretation in the library that I can enjoy immensely.

While others may disagree, I love Hotter's Gurnemanz. I did find in Act I, though, there were some signs of wear in the upper register and some wobble. This was forgotten after a beautifully sung Act III. Niedlinger was a fine but somewhat uninteresting Klingsor, especially when one has heard Uhde in the part.

This performance reminded me how much skill is required to pull off Kundry; such a demanding role. I seemed to enjoy Ericsson more in Act II, as Act I for me came off a bit shaky; the back and forth with Parsifal in the flower garden was well played by both. A good reminder that Modl and Dallis were both so well matched for the role of Kundry, (IMO).

Particular moving moments for me throughout the recording:
- the encounter with Gurnemanz and Parsifal when the swan is killed
- Kundry and Parsifal in the garden 
- Good Friday encounter and final transformation music 
- Amfortas lamenting the death of Titurel and the brokenness of his culpability. 
- Parsifal's final "Oh! Welchen Wunder..."

The entirety of Act III was positively mesmerizing and Knap leads a near flawless performance for the whole opera. The '62 still reigns for me with that bit of "magic" I haven't captured quite as much with any other recording.

Final verdict: if you don't have this in your collection... "buy, buy, buy"!


----------



## howlingfantods

cheftimmyr said:


> The '62 still reigns for me with that bit of "magic" I haven't captured quite as much with any other recording.


I think I've been leaning in the direction of the 1964 over the 1962 lately--I find Vickers' performance about as much better than Thomas' as I find Dalis' performance over Ericson's, and I think the Parsifal casting is slightly more important than the Kundry--this despite thinking Vickers a little more flawed than I gather people around here do generally. But he makes a real meal of Amfortas! Die Wunde! and Nur eine Waffe taugt while Thomas is just too soft grained to bring these off.

I also prefer Stewart's Amfortas over London's by a fair margin, and I think despite the later date, Hotter is in slightly better voice here than in 1962. You do miss out on the lovely Janowitz flower maiden though, and it is a bummer that you miss out on Dalis too of course.

I've gotten the 1963 the most recently and so have listened to it the least, but it might be the best compromise with the less lovely but more heroic Parsifal of Windgassen paired with the wonderful Dalis. Still have the London Amfortas that I don't favor though.


----------



## DarkAngel

61 Bayreuth Parsifal below also great except without stereo sound of famous 62 Parsifal commercial release, I still prefer the Hotter/Thomas tandem during this period compared to Vickers or later Windgassen, great pix of Dalis and Thomas from 61 Parsifal


----------



## Bonetan

howlingfantods said:


> I think I've been leaning in the direction of the 1964 over the 1962 lately--I find Vickers' performance about as much better than Thomas' as I find Dalis' performance over Ericson's, and I think the Parsifal casting is slightly more important than the Kundry--this despite thinking Vickers a little more flawed than I gather people around here do generally. But he makes a real meal of Amfortas! Die Wunde! and Nur eine Waffe taugt while Thomas is just too soft grained to bring these off.
> 
> I also prefer Stewart's Amfortas over London's by a fair margin, and I think despite the later date, Hotter is in slightly better voice here than in 1962. You do miss out on the lovely Janowitz flower maiden though, and it is a bummer that you miss out on Dalis too of course.
> 
> I've gotten the 1963 the most recently and so have listened to it the least, but it might be the best compromise with the less lovely but more heroic Parsifal of Windgassen paired with the wonderful Dalis. Still have the London Amfortas that I don't favor though.


Ah shoot, you don't like London as Amfortas? I would argue that he is the very best Amfortas that one could ask for, especially over light voiced Stewart. What don't you like about him?


----------



## howlingfantods

Bonetan said:


> Ah shoot, you don't like London as Amfortas? I would argue that he is the very best Amfortas that one could ask for, especially over light voiced Stewart. What don't you like about him?


I like my Amfortas with a lighter, more baritonal voice--my absolute favorite performances are those by Jose Van Dam and Peter Mattei. Hotter is also a very fine Amfortas and I actually like Fischer-Dieskau in this role better than most of his other forays into Wagner.

London is dramatically effective but I felt like I never really appreciated just how stunningly beautiful Wehvolles Erbe is until I heard others in the role.


----------



## Woodduck

Bonetan said:


> Ah shoot, you don't like London as Amfortas? I would argue that he is the very best Amfortas that one could ask for, especially over light voiced Stewart. What don't you like about him?


I love the darkness, bite, and weight of George London's voice in all of the Wagner bass-baritone roles. He has an utterly distincive timbre that does contain a roughish, gritty quality (some call it "wooly") that got more pronounced later in his sadly abbreviated career. He's in his freshest voice in the 1951 _Parsifal_, but still quite commanding in 1962. I agree with howlingfantods that some others have produced a smoother sound, and imparted to the character a little more inwardness. But London never lets us forget that he's a king, Wagner's version of the Fisher King; royalty comes naturally to him (he was a superb Boris Godunov too), while a light, heady baritone like Fischer-Dieskau has to "act" the part (and never quite convinces me).


----------



## DarkAngel

DarkAngel said:


> 61 Bayreuth Parsifal below also great except without stereo sound of famous 62 Parsifal commercial release, I still prefer the Hotter/Thomas tandem during this period compared to Vickers or later Windgassen, great pix of Dalis and Thomas from 61 Parsifal


My preference for Jess Thomas for Parsifal lies in his unique poetic and lyric vocal style to underscore the transformation his character undertakes, the power of compassion and forgiveness our enlightened fool comes to understand and demonstrate is very convincing for me with Jess, an inner spiritual beauty & peace seem to vocally radiate from him.......

Notice the vocal excellence of Gustav Neidlinger is so great we do not even mention the performance of Klingsor during this time at Bayreuth, a testament to a great iconic wagner singer.....


----------



## Bonetan

Woodduck said:


> I love the darkness, bite, and weight of George London's voice in all of the Wagner bass-baritone roles. He has an utterly distincive timbre that does contain a roughish, gritty quality (some call it "wooly") that got more pronounced later in his sadly abbreviated career. He's in his freshest voice in the 1951 _Parsifal_, but still quite commanding in 1962. I agree with howlingfantods that some others have produced a smoother sound, and imparted to the character a little more inwardness. But London never lets us forget that he's a king, Wagner's version of the Fisher King; royalty comes naturally to him (he was a superb Boris Godunov too), while a light, heady baritone like Fischer-Dieskau has to "act" the part (and never quite convinces me).


I'm in agreement. Amfortas is written for the types of voices that sing Dutchman & Wotan, not Wolfram. Wehvolles Erbe is right up there with the heaviest, most dramatic music Wagner ever wrote for low voices. Light voiced baritones like Mattei & DFD aren't right for it.


----------



## Woodduck

Bonetan said:


> I'm in agreement. Amfortas is written for the types of voices that sing Dutchman & Wotan, not Wolfram. Wehvolles Erbe is right up there with the heaviest, most dramatic music Wagner ever wrote for low voices. Light voiced baritones like Mattei & DFD aren't right for it.


I haven't heard Mattei in act 2 of _Parsifal._ The day the Met broadcast it a few years ago the transmission shut down precisely during Amfortas' monologue and returned when he was finished!


----------



## amfortas

Woodduck said:


> I haven't heard Mattei in act 2 of _Parsifal._ The day the Met broadcast it a few years ago the transmission shut down precisely during Amfortas' monologue and returned when he was finished!


There may be another reason you never heard Mattei's--or anyone's--Amfortas in Act 2 of _Parsifal_.


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## Barbebleu

amfortas said:


> There may be another reason you never heard Mattei's--or anyone's--Amfortas in Act 2 of _Parsifal_.


I'll hazard a guess. He isn't in Act 2:lol:


----------



## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> I'll hazard a guess. He isn't in Act 2 :lol:


Amfortas gets a big "shout out" from Parsifal when Kundry gets him all excited in Act 2..........


----------



## Woodduck

amfortas said:


> There may be another reason you never heard Mattei's--or anyone's--Amfortas in Act 2 of _Parsifal_.


Sorry. _Scene_ 2.

There was that production in which Klingsor had Amfortas tied to a chair or something.


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## howlingfantods

Woodduck said:


> I haven't heard Mattei in act 2 of _Parsifal._ The day the Met broadcast it a few years ago the transmission shut down precisely during Amfortas' monologue and returned when he was finished!


He was a revelation in that production--when I watched it, I was looking forward to the Pape, Kaufmann and Dalayman performances in that order, and ended up being by far the most impressed by Mattei.


----------



## Woodduck

howlingfantods said:


> He was a revelation in that production--when I watched it, I was looking forward to the Pape, Kaufmann and Dalayman performances in that order, and ended up being by far the most impressed by Mattei.


That was the general critical assessment. Needless to say I was furious about that bit of technological "censorship," and I never learned the reason why it happened. Why couldn't it have been Dalayman instead?  I did enjoy the performance as a (near) whole, though.


----------



## Bonetan

howlingfantods said:


> He was a revelation in that production--when I watched it, I was looking forward to the Pape, Kaufmann and Dalayman performances in that order, and ended up being by far the most impressed by Mattei.


Yes I heard he acted the living crap out of the role & sang it beautifully. But I care not! I don't like Amfortas as a pathetic figure with a pretty voice dammit! I want a powerful king. Give me Hotter, London etc & tell those lyric baritones to stay in their lane! I remember reading somewhere that Mattei wants to sing Wotan. Over my dead body! See what happens when you encourage these Mozart singers??


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## Scott in PA

howlingfantods said:


> He was a revelation in that production--when I watched it, I was looking forward to the Pape, Kaufmann and Dalayman performances in that order, and ended up being by far the most impressed by Mattei.


Those were my feelings as well. I was very moved by Mattei's performance. I remember tears coming to my eyes in his very first scene with: "...mich dunkt, ihn zu erkennen, durft ich den Tod ihn nennen".

I saw this performance in the house, watched the HD, then ordered the DVD as soon as it became available. I loved this cast and conductor, even if I didn't like the production.


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## Woodduck

OK then, let's have Mattei's Amfortas in a new recording of _Parsifal._ Who else do we want in it? Kaufmann, I think. Are there any Kundrys who measure up to Ludwig or Dalis? Any bassi profundi for a great Gurnemanz? (Pape didn't quite do it for me.) Will we ever get another gloriously neurotic Klingsor like Uhde? And the conductor...

A geezer can dream.


----------



## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> *My preference for Jess Thomas for Parsifal lies in his unique poetic and lyric vocal style to underscore the transformation his character undertakes, the power of compassion and forgiveness our enlightened fool comes to understand and demonstrate is very convincing for me with Jess, an inner spiritual beauty & peace seem to vocally radiate from him.......*
> 
> Notice the vocal excellence of Gustav Neidlinger is so great we do not even mention the performance of Klingsor during this time at Bayreuth, a testament to a great iconic wagner singer.....


Enjoying the resurgence of activity on the thread! DA sums up what I also love about Thomas' Parsifal.

I was able to attend a live performance of Gotterdammerung last night so I'm in Wagner-Bliss!

Most likely Lohengrin, Tristan and Die Meister if I can fit all that in the rest of the week!


----------



## DarkAngel

^^^^ Chefty you have definitely earned your spot in the mighty halls of Valhalla, your wagner views/comments are most welcome and interesting, Jess Thomas and Astrid Varnay forever ha ha...........

Live performance, tell us more......


----------



## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> ^^^^ Chefty you have definitely earned your spot in the mighty halls of Valhalla, your wagner views/comments are most welcome and interesting, *Jess Thomas and Astrid Varnay forever ha ha...........*
> 
> Live performance, tell us more......


indeed!

The performance was a mixed bag, like most Wagner productions now-a-days (from what I gather). Christine Goerke sang a good Brunnhilde, which was a relief since her last years Brunnhilde in the Siegfried production left me indifferent. Likewise, Simon O'Neill sang an adequate Siegfried which was an improvement over Jay Hunter Morris who sang the role last year. O'Neill looked nothing like the hero Wagner most likely imagined, but where Morris looked the part, O'Neill delivered a better vocal performance. Andrea Silvestrelli, after a slow start, really pulled off a good Hagen.

The orchestra played well and the highlight was a moving rendtition of Siegfried's Funeral March and Rhine Journey. I was bracing myself for a letdown on the funeral march but I was moved to tears. Being the first time I was watching the production and not imagining it whilst listening was a special experience. A few orchestral flubs, notably in the opening prelude in the horn section. My wife, who isn't obsessive about Wagner at all, didn't notice but I'm sure there were a few purists in the audience who caught it.

Finally, the production was eye-roll worthy in a number of ways. We went from a traditional staging of Siegfried and Brunnhilde in Act 1 to an industrial, cyborg, communistic/fascist Gibichen. Hagen looked like a Marxist henchmen and Gunther looked like a gray crash dummy with an iPad. It was just weird. When Siegfried arrives they make a show of undressing him from his hunters garb into a black suit. When Siegfried, as Gunther, accosts Brunnhilde as his new wife-to-be, we have semi nude extras slithering under a mesh cover where Brunnhilde lays finally swarming her, I assume as a depiction of Sigfried/Gunthers consummation of the forced union. Not to be out-done, Hagen disposes of Gunther in the final act by pulling out a revolver and capping Gunther from across the stage with a sudden bang.

I don't know if this qualifies as RegieTheater because 99% of my opera digestion has been audio with the libretto, but knowing the libretto and some of the stage notes Wagner wrote, I found this alter-iteration to only detract from a purist/traditional production. Just my opinion and others could disagree I'm sure. Most notably, the final immolation scene would have been more moving if it weren't set in a highly industrial "warehouse" with computer screens simulating flames. Valhalla was not seen in the distance with Wotan as the flames built; Goerke's passionate Brunnhilde saved it though.

There were a few cool interpretations as in the Prelude with the Norns and also the Rhine maidens....

The music and adequate cast overcame some production quirks.

Das Ende


----------



## Woodduck

^^^ According to the libretto, Siegfried-as-Gunther lays his sword between himself and Brunnhilde, respecting Gunther's marital rights. Perhaps those semi-nude girls were there to relieve his frustration.


----------



## cheftimmyr

Woodduck said:


> ^^^ According to the libretto, Siegfried-as-Gunther lays his sword between himself and Brunnhilde, respecting Gunther's marital rights. Perhaps those semi-nude girls were there to relieve his frustration.


I'm feeling short-changed... my libretto has none of those notes! Must research...

As an aside, the semi-nude extras were female and male! Cmon Duck, this was a modern production with no hint of gender discrimination present! :lol: :tiphat:


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## cheftimmyr

Never a dull moment with Karl Bohm at the helm!

To date I haven't felt the need to build my Lohengrin library due to having the incomparable Kempe recording as well as the wonderful Bayreuth recording led by Sawallisch. That being said, I have no regrets of adding this '65 Bohm rendition to my library after seeing a recommendation from a few posters on TC.

Bohm leads an electric and dynamic performance, which I've come to expect nothing less. There are moments in Act I where the cast does feel like they are trying to keep pace with Bohm and get all their lines in, but overall the force and drive with which Bohm directs brings an energy to the score which is electric and enjoyable. Every time I hear this operas opening prelude I'm struck by the pure beauty and talent of Wagner to transport us to other-worldly places. Absolute magic. Overall I think Act II is the beneficiary of Bohm's approach. The drama and tension between Telramund and Ortrud is palpable; one cannot help to be transfixed by their interplay. Despite some of the chorus cuts, they sing beautifully for Bohm.

Walter Berry sings a well rounded Telramund; at once being subservient to Ortrud's cunning but also displaying his own arrogance and aloofness. A part that could sometimes be just seen as Ortrud's doormat is transformed with some appreciable complexity and layering of motive.

Christa Ludwig is a fantastically evil usurper; her "Entweihte Gotter..." is chilling. If Astrid is #1 in this part, Ludwig comes in at 1a for me.

Jess Thomas IS Lohengrin. The pure silk which he delivers, vocally, is hypnotic. Dare I say this recording may capture slightly more fervor in his portrayal than the Kempe?!?!

While Claire Watson sings well vocally, she lacks the lyrical dreaminess of Elsa that Grummer delivers, leaving Grummer at the top of my list for the role of Elsa.

I still have the Keilberth Lohengrin in the listening pile; should be a fun comparison at a later date.


----------



## DarkAngel

> Jess Thomas IS Lohengrin. The pure silk which he delivers, vocally, is hypnotic. Dare I say this recording may capture slightly more fervor in his portrayal than the Kempe?!?!


Pulled this out for another listen, a really great Lohengrin with very good live sound. What makes Jess so great here for instance in act two with Elsa in the bedroom he vocally caresses every word and infuses it with color and emotion, a beautiful lyric soft voice that is so experessive.....many wagner singers delivery can be generic and routine sounding by comparison.

I noticed Ludwig got an ovation stoppage in act 2 during her encounter with Elsa, rare in wagner operas. A final raging tempest of fury by Ortrud as Lohengrin reveals his origin in final scence and invokes the power of the grail to break the pagan spell and reveal the young duke of brabant............very exciting

I agree that a greater contrast of vocal character ideally could be developed with a sweeter more pure voiced Elsa (like Grummer), but overall a wonderful performance that can't be missed


----------



## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> Pulled this out for another listen, a really great Lohengrin with very good live sound. What makes Jess so great here for instance in act two with Elsa in the bedroom he vocally caresses every word and infuses it with color and emotion, a beautiful lyric soft voice that is so experessive.....many wagner singers delivery can be generic and routine sounding by comparison.
> 
> I noticed Ludwig got an ovation stoppage in act 2 during her encounter with Elsa, rare in wagner operas. A final raging tempest of fury by Ortrud as Lohengrin reveals his origin in final scence and invokes the power of the grail to break the pagan spell and reveal the young duke of brabant............very exciting
> 
> I agree that a greater contrast of vocal character ideally could be developed with a sweeter more pure voiced Elsa (like Grummer), but overall a wonderful performance that can't be missed


The standing ovation caught me off guard but was very well deserved; another remindrt you're not listening to a Bayreuth performance!

Great insight into Thomas' Act II performance.


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## amfortas

cheftimmyr said:


> I'm feeling short-changed... my libretto has none of those notes! Must research...


It's not specified in the stage directions, but in the dialogue (both during that scene and in the next act).


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## mountmccabe

After seeing Mattei as Amfortas I wanted to put together an outfit like that as a Halloween costume. Of course that holiday was 8 months away so I forgot about it by then. And I'm not sure it would have been distinctive enough that anyone would have known what I was doing, unless I went to a party where everyone was dressed like a character from opera productions. If anyone hears of such a party, let me know!


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## Woodduck

mountmccabe said:


> After seeing Mattei as Amfortas I wanted to put together an outfit like that as a Halloween costume. Of course that holiday was 8 months away so I forgot about it by then. And I'm not sure it would have been distinctive enough that anyone would have known what I was doing, unless I went to a party where everyone was dressed like a character from opera productions. If anyone hears of such a party, let me know!


No one would have recognized it as Amfortas (even I can't ), or even as a costume. They would have looked at that spot of raspberry jam and called 911.


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## mountmccabe

DarkAngel said:


> I think I have found Flagstad's best liebestod, comes from 1949 radio recital with Set Svanholm of all wagner material, you can tell from the early vocal swells at 1:23 and 1:36 that she is in the zone and will really let go, really captures the building emotional climax and glorious transfiguration to transcend mortal bounds
> 
> Since this is recital she is well rested and can really exert herself, Naxos CD has very good sound of this event





cheftimmyr said:


> Have to agree with DA, and thank for the recommendation, on this Naxos Flagstad/Svanholm recital release. Audio quality is great, and her Liebestod is divine; vocally pristine and pure. The recital setting allows for a great balance between vocals and orchestra which sometimes gets a little muddy on some live recordings. I hadn't heard Flagstad sing "Senta" before but I should have guessed that she would nail that part as well. Really cool to have her perform Senta's Ballad.
> 
> Svanholm sings a nice prize song which, having just listened to the '51 HvK recently, assures that melody will be in my mind for the next 72hours minimum! He doesn't have the lyrical sweetness of Schock singing the prize song, but the tone is strong and steady which is a vast upgrade from the Hopf. Unfortunately Jess Thomas IS Lohengrin for me so Svanholm's "In fernem land" doesn't blow me away, but it's appreciable.
> 
> The Venusberg Music was a nice addition to the recital program as well....
> 
> Verdict for anyone still on the fence: "Buy, buy buy"! :lol:


My copy arrived and I've been listening and oh wow, this Liebestod is so wonderful. It sounds effortless, and the emotional build is just perfect.

I guess I prefer a more lyrical prize song since that didn't do much for me, but I did enjoy the "In fernam land" from Svanholm, as well as the love duet from Tristan!

It was a little odd hearing the radio fill between pieces, but they are separate tracks so they're easily skippable.


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## mountmccabe

Woodduck said:


> No one would have recognized it as Amfortas (even I can't ), or even as a costume. They would have looked at that spot of raspberry jam and called 911.


It would not have been the first time (almost) no one recognized me.

Perhaps it would have helped if I went on about suffering the whole time. Or maybe I would have needed a crew to carry me around


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## Woodduck

mountmccabe said:


> It would not have been the first time (almost) no one recognized me.
> 
> Perhaps it would have helped if I went on about suffering the whole time. Or maybe I would have needed a crew to carry me around


Is that really the way the knights of the Grail carried their king in that production? Man, I'd have complained about my job too.


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## amfortas

Woodduck said:


> Is that really the way the knights of the Grail carried their king in that production? Man, I'd have complained about my job too.


It has a definite pietà look about it, but is probably a bit uncomfortable if you're not actually dead.


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## gardibolt

Bill H. said:


> The main reason I would have for doubting this person's (final) conclusion is the evidence on the Orfeo release of the Krauss Ring, which is the only commercial version that claims to be an authorized release from the Bavarian Radio master tape archives. In that release, the beginning of Siegfried is pretty much the one we've all come to know (in whatever guise), but also includes the opening drumroll which is cut off from all other commercial versions (those others always begin at the point with the bassoon chords).
> 
> If the beginning of the Keilberth Siegfried is that very same performance, I would conclude that it's the Keilberth-labeled releases which use the Krauss as the substitute.


I decided to get to the bottom of this and contacted Bavarian Radio directly about the mystery of the 1953 Siegfried Act I. I am going to put the full information that I got into an article for publication, but here are the relevant essentials straight from Bavarian Radio:

1) They still have the original tapes for both the Keilberth and the Krauss Siegfried from 1953. 
2) The Orfeo Krauss includes the correct Krauss Act I of Siegfried, and it is indeed from the original Bavarian Radio tapes as Orfeo claims.
3) The Act I Siegfried on all of the 1953 Keilberth releases other than the pseudonymous Allegro/Royale bootleg of the Keilberth radio broadcast taped off the air is actually Krauss' version. BR graciously double-checked the tapes after my inquiry, and they are not the same first acts on the original tapes. The Krauss Act I has a loud cough on the opening G-Bb of the bassoons (mostly erased on the Pristine version), which is the giveaway that Act I is the same as on all of these 1953 releases. There is no cough there on the genuine Keilberth. Except for the Allegro/Royale bootleg, the actual Act I of Keilberth's 1953 Siegfried hasn't been heard since the original broadcast.
4) If someone (Orfeo, let's say) wanted to release the 1953 Keilberth Ring direct from the Bavarian Radio tapes and got the OK of Bayreuth, they could certainly do so. The tapes are in fine shape and have *not* been damaged as some have speculated.

So there you have it. Krauss lovers can rest easy. The Orfeo Krauss is the genuine article (complete with the opening timpani roll). Keilberth fans have something to look forward to, maybe. I think I will have to buy the Orfeo Krauss to give them a modest encouragement to do the Keilberth. My OCD is offended by the Keilberth Act I of Siegfried on the various releases, including Pan Classics, being a fraud.


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## DarkAngel

^^^^ Also able to get away with the act 1 siegfried substitution because in 1953 Varnay and Modl had not begun to alternate roles of brunnhilde/sieglinde during the two Rings each bayreuth season.....Varnay was brunnhilde for both rings in 53 season

Did orfeo offer any theory as to why the siegfried act 1 for 53 keilberth was replaced with 53 Krauss on all these other releases? There must have been some logic originally for this if it was never lost or destroyed......

Overall I suspect vast majority of listeners would never notice anything wrong since the differences are not glaring, for me I never think about it......


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## gardibolt

They don't know for sure, but suspect that whoever "borrowed" their tapes to make the copy that's the source of all of the 1953 Keilberths either accidentally grabbed the Krauss Act I of Siegfried instead of the Keilberth, or possibly he liked the Krauss Act I better (apparently the Keilberth Act I of Siegfried is a good deal slower in tempo than the Krauss).


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## mountmccabe

DarkAngel said:


> ^^^^ Also able to get away with the act 1 siegfried substitution because in 1953 Varnay and Modl had not begun to alternate roles of brunnhilde/sieglinde during the two Rings each bayreuth season.....Varnay was brunnhilde for both rings in 53 season


The Bayreuth website for that year's _Siegfried_ tells a different story, with Varnay singing for Krauss, and Mödl for Keilberth. Of course Brünnhilde doesn't show up until Act 3, which is one reason there has been the confusion.

But wow, gardibolt, that's amazing information! Be sure to let us know when your article becomes available!


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## DarkAngel

> The Bayreuth website for that year's _Siegfried tells a different story, with Varnay singing for Krauss, and Mödl for Keilberth. Of course Brünnhilde doesn't show up until Act 3, which is one reason there has been the confusion._


Opps that is correct they did switch Ring roles in 53 bayreuth season, but yes since act 1 of sieggy is an all guys thing it matters not


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## cheftimmyr

The thread was falling too far down the main page so luckily I just finished the 1960 Knappy Meistersinger.

I found this a mixed bag, in general, but think it a worthwhile addition to the library.

Knap leads a surprisingly restrained performance, allowing the vocals to really shine forth (the choir is phenomenal) while the orchestra underpins the entire performance. This was not what I was expecting considering his Ring cycles of the late '50's and his Dutchman. It was a welcomed different approach for me to hear as I expand my Meistersinger horizons. The sound on this Orfeo release is shockingly good. The vocals are crystal clear, as far as recordings from 1960 go... really impressed with the quality of the mono recording.

Greindl's 'Hans Sachs' is by far the most light-hearted portrayal I've heard of the role thus far. At time's there's an almost grandfatherly joviality conveyed, but then I missed some of the deep melancholy that really adds the depth to Sachs. I found it missing; the 'Wahn...' and 'Jerum...' solos were missing the melancholic desperation, but I did think he sang the 'Flieder...' well.

Theo Adam was in good voice for Pogner; a little lighter sounding then what I've encountered thus far but a nice lyricism to the role. Schmitt-Walter's 'Beckmesser' was the least caricatured I've heard and was seemed to be sung 'straight-up', and well delivered. Stolze's 'David' was rather mature sounding.

Grummer was a beautiful Eva; she hasn't disappointed me yet singing any Wagner... love her silky, angelic, elegant and lyrical delivery.

Windgassen brought a beautiful amount of vocal personality to the role of Walther; the Prize song was not as fluid as I was hoping for though. Seemed a few times he and Kna weren't on the same page but that withstanding, a well acted Walther that just fell short on the Prize Song.

Stunning mono-Bayreuth with Knap at the helm... :cheers:


----------



## DarkAngel

> Grummer was a beautiful Eva; she hasn't disappointed me yet singing any Wagner... love her silky, angelic, elegant and lyrical delivery.


Windgassen - Greindl - Grummer 1960


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## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> Windgassen - Greindl - Grummer 1960


Windgassen looks like my grandmother (when she was alive).


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## gardibolt

He does look....matronly.


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## Barbebleu

I put this on another thread but for all those who missed it here we go again!


I just finished listening to Lohengrin, Stockholm 1966 with Nicolai Gedda as a wonderfully sung and acted Lohengrin. The rest of the cast are well up to par. The Stockholm Opera orchestra sound great, one or two fluffs by the brass but nothing to get worked up about. Silvio Varviso is excellent in the pit. Worth it for Gedda alone imo. Act three, scene one just sounds so good when sung like this. Wasn't familiar with the Elsa, Aase Nordmo-Lovberg, but she is a very good Elsa and sounds a bit like a slightly less firm Elisabeth Grümmer. Barbro Ericson and Rolf Jupither make a great pair of villains and sing well. All in all a fine Lohengrin and a good addition to my collection. Btw it is in excellent audio.

Interestingly it is Gedda's only foray into Wagner. Apparently he was worried it would wreck his voice. Other singers should take note.


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## Woodduck

gardibolt said:


> He does look....matronly.


A bit like Mrs. Doubtfire, God rest her soul.


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## cheftimmyr

Woodduck said:


> A bit like Mrs. Doubtfire, God rest her soul.


"Euphegenia Doubtfire, dear..."


----------



## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> I just finished listening to Lohengrin, Stockholm 1966 with Nicolai Gedda as a wonderfully sung and acted Lohengrin. The rest of the cast are well up to par. The Stockholm Opera orchestra sound great, one or two fluffs by the brass but nothing to get worked up about. Silvio Varviso is excellent in the pit. Worth it for Gedda alone imo. Act three, scene one just sounds so good when sung like this. Wasn't familiar with the Elsa, Aase Nordmo-Lovberg, but she is a very good Elsa and sounds a bit like a slightly less firm Elisabeth Grümmer. Barbro Ericson and Rolf Jupither make a great pair of villains and sing well. All in all a fine Lohengrin and a good addition to my collection. Btw it is in excellent audio.
> 
> Interestingly it is Gedda's only foray into Wagner. Apparently he was worried it would wreck his voice. Other singers should take note.












Nice under the radar Lohengrin courtesy of operadepot, agree Gedda is great swan knight and Barbro Ericson (below) is delightfully wicked Ortrud......


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> Nice under the radar Lohengrin courtesy of operadepot, agree Gedda is great swan knight and Barbro Ericson (below) is delightfully wicked Ortrud......


I think Barbro could convert me to the dark side without too much bother!:devil:


----------



## mountmccabe

In advance of seeing _Der fliegende Holländer_ at the Met next week I'm exploring some older versions. Today I listened to the Reiner from 1950 from the Met, with Hotter, Varnay, and Svanholm.

I really love Astrid Varnay in this role, rich and clear. Something sounds off about Hans Hotter, like he's too big for the role. That changes for the finale, though, where the demands of the role come up to meet him. He's quite wonderful revealing himself as the Holländer.

One weird footnote: I listened to the Sony release on Spotify, and just before Senta's ballad, the track "Du böses Kind! Wenn du nicht spinnst" appears to be from the Dohnányi recording? The hiss drops away and everything is clear, just for that one track. Can I assume that this error doesn't happen on the CD releases?


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## amfortas

gardibolt said:


> He does look....matronly.





Woodduck said:


> A bit like Mrs. Doubtfire, God rest her soul.





cheftimmyr said:


> "Euphegenia Doubtfire, dear..."


Thanks, guys. Any other heldentenors you'd like to ruin for me forever?


----------



## Woodduck

amfortas said:


> Thanks, guys. Any other heldentenors you'd like to ruin for me forever?


Well, Max Lorenz reminds me of my uncle Joe, who took up embroidery in his retirement.


----------



## Pugg

Opera Depot:

_Rysanek as Kundry!_

I rarely make a fuss about a single recording, but this particular recording of Parsifal is worth it due to the stunning Kundry of Leonie Rysanek.


----------



## Barbebleu

Pugg said:


> Opera Depot:
> 
> _Rysanek as Kundry!_
> 
> I rarely make a fuss about a single recording, but this particular recording of Parsifal is worth it due to the stunning Kundry of Leonie Rysanek.


I'd decided I would refrain from any more purchases for a while but just when you think you're out, they pull you back in! Another one for the collection and, incidentally, a great freebie of Fidelio too with Rysanek, King and Berry!


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## Pugg

Barbebleu said:


> I'd decided I would refrain from any more purchases for a while but just when you think you're out, they pull you back in! Another one for the collection and, incidentally, a great freebie of Fidelio too with Rysanek, King and Berry!


That's two for the price of one


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## DarkAngel

The Karajan Ring is being released as single disc 24/96 blu ray audio just like the Solti Ring. Presto UK will have it June 16 for $67 USA dollars. This will not play on standard CD player, must be blu ray format capable. I have not used the Solti blu ray Ring, but I am concerned how easy it is to navigate to any track especially if no external video screen is available, you do get full 24/96 sound vs 16/44 CD resolution

I also posted this to "ping" Chefty and see if his wagner CD stack for listening has been reduced


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## amfortas

DarkAngel said:


> The Karajan Ring is being released as single disc 24/96 blu ray audio just like the Solti Ring. Presto UK will have it June 16 for $67 USA dollars. This will not play on standard CD player, must be blu ray format capable. I have not used the Solti blu ray Ring, but I am concerned how easy it is to navigate to any track especially if no external video screen is available, you do get full 24/96 sound vs 16/44 CD resolution
> 
> I also posted this to "ping" Chefty and see if his wagner CD stack for listening has been reduced


I have the '63 Karajan Beethoven symphonies on a single blu-ray; that one has a video display so you can navigate to particular movements. Don't know if that's at all indicative of the Ring blu-ray.


----------



## DarkAngel

amfortas said:


> I have the '63 Karajan Beethoven symphonies on a single blu-ray; that one has a video display so you can navigate to particular movements. Don't know if that's at all indicative of the Ring blu-ray.


It should be no problem if used with blu ray drive computer with screen or home theater with TV, but I wonder if you only have the small info screen on stands alone blu ray player can it really be workable........

I am starting to consider an outboard USB 3 blu ray disc drive or internal drive for my computer just for blu ray audio, but so far just thinking......


----------



## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> The Karajan Ring is being released as single disc 24/96 blu ray audio just like the Solti Ring. Presto UK will have it June 16 for $67 USA dollars. This will not play on standard CD player, must be blu ray format capable. I have not used the Solti blu ray Ring, but I am concerned how easy it is to navigate to any track especially if no external video screen is available, you do get full 24/96 sound vs 16/44 CD resolution
> 
> I also posted this to "ping" Chefty and see if his wagner CD stack for listening has been reduced


Consider myself "pinged"! I've been obscenely snowed under the last few weeks but am hoping to get into Kleiber Tristan and Furty Meister this week.... I saw the thread fall off page one and started having a minor panic attack... :lol:


----------



## Bill H.

Just a note that Pristine Audio has released the 1937 Met "Siegfried" with Melchior and Flagstad, Schorr, List, Laufkötter,, Therborg etc. A first listen to the sample shows impressive restoration of the frequency range, but still audible damage that couldn't be completely overcome. See what you think.

https://www.pristineclassical.com/products/paco139


----------



## DarkAngel

Bill H. said:


> Just a note that Pristine Audio has released the 1937 Met "Siegfried" with Melchior and Flagstad, Schorr, List, Laufkötter,, Therborg etc. A first listen to the sample shows impressive restoration of the frequency range, but still audible damage that couldn't be completely overcome. See what you think.












Yes 16 month restoration project by Rose taken from a Saturday 1937 MET radio broadcast preserved on 16 inch transcription discs, this is only known complete Siegfried with Melchior and Flagstad............it must be owned!

The sound easily surpasses the well known Naxos release, not only are voices further illuminated and clarified but we can also now hear orchestral detail instead of opaque background rumble, extended sample of "heil dir sonne" the awakening of brunhilde sounds great under the circumstances, Pristine XR legend lives on..........


----------



## cheftimmyr

DarkAngel said:


> Yes 16 month restoration project by Rose taken from Saturday 37 MET radio broadcast preserved on 16 inch transcription discs, this is only known complete Siegfried with Melchior and Flagstad............it must be owned!
> 
> The sound easily surpasses the well known Naxos release, not only are voices further illuminated and clarified but we can also now hear orchestral detail instead of opaque background rumble, extended sample of "heil dir sonne" the awakening of brunhilde sounds great under the circumstances, Pristine XR legend lives on..........


I was almost jumping up and down in joy when I got the Pristine update email featuring this Siegfried! I think my exact words were "Aw, hell yesssss!!!".

I'm into Kleiber Tristan and the will have the Hamburg Rheingold to report on shortly as well.


----------



## Barbebleu

cheftimmyr said:


> I'm into Kleiber Tristan and the will have the Hamburg Rheingold to report on shortly as well.


Which Kleiber Tristan is it Chef? Is it the studio one with Price? He did it at Bayreuth in '74, '75 and '76 and I have a recording of his dad Erich doing it in Buenos Aires in 1938. Imo Margaret Price sings one of the best Liebestods I have heard.


----------



## cheftimmyr

Barbebleu said:


> Which Kleiber Tristan is it Chef? Is it the studio one with Price? He did it at Bayreuth in '74, '75 and '76 and I have a recording of his dad Erich doing it in Buenos Aires in 1938. Imo Margaret Price sings one of the best Liebestods I have heard.


The '76 is what I'm listening to currently; also have the '74 in line (both Bayreuth). So far I'm loving Kleiber's touch with the orchestra and score.


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## DarkAngel

Immortal Performance uses same 37 MET Siegfried for Dream Ring boxset as does the recent Sony MET boxset, they must all bow down and pay homage to the new reference......Pristine XR


----------



## amfortas

I've got yet another incarnation, the old Guild edition (by way of Immortal Performances):


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## gardibolt

DarkAngel said:


> Immortal Performance uses same 37 MET Siegfried for Dream Ring boxset as does the recent Sony MET boxset, they must all bow down and pay homage to the new reference......Pristine XR


It's notable that the 1937 Siegfried is so good that it's the only one of the Ring operas that Caniell didn't feel compelled to tamper with in assembling his Dream Ring. Going to have to get this one from Pristine, even though I have both of those pictured.


----------



## amfortas

gardibolt said:


> It's notable that the 1937 Siegfried is so good that it's the only one of the Ring operas that Caniell didn't feel compelled to tamper with in assembling his Dream Ring. Going to have to get this one from Pristine, even though I have both of those pictured.


It's a good recording, but the point you make should be qualified a bit. This is the *only* complete Melchior _Siegfried_, so there's limited opportunity to splice in other works. Yes, the same is true of _Götterdämmerung_, but that opera doesn't depend so heavily on the character of Siegfried.

That said, I have this recording and, like you, would recommend it.


----------



## SixFootScowl

DarkAngel said:


> The Karajan Ring is being released as single disc 24/96 blu ray audio just like the Solti Ring. Presto UK will have it June 16 for $67 USA dollars. This will not play on standard CD player, must be blu ray format capable. I have not used the Solti blu ray Ring, but I am concerned how easy it is to navigate to any track especially if no external video screen is available, you do get full 24/96 sound vs 16/44 CD resolution


Is there a way to rip the tracks to the computer from a blu ray audio disk? If not, that would be a huge drawback.


----------



## DarkAngel

Florestan said:


> Is there a way to rip the tracks to the computer from a blu ray audio disk? If not, that would be a huge drawback.


You need an internal or external blu ray capable disc drive for computer, not expensive option but many stock computer disc drives only do CD/DVD.......I have considered upgrading my windows 7 computer disc drive to blu ray capable unit 

I have been very happy with Tidal streaming music service rolling out new "masters" series (all recent Callas remasters) in 24/96 resolution using new MQA technology, nice.........


----------



## SixFootScowl

DarkAngel said:


> You need an internal or external blu ray capable disc drive for computer, not expensive option but many stock computer disc drives only do CD/DVD.......I have considered upgrading my windows 7 computer disc drive to blu ray capable unit
> 
> I have been very happy with Tidal streaming music service rolling out new "masters" series (all recent Callas remasters) in 24/96 resolution using new MQA technology, nice.........


Well that is good that they are rippable. Nice to be able to fit the entire Ring on one disk. Saves a lot of storage space, but then I think they make up for it with a fatter booklet in some deluxe sets, which is very nice too.


----------



## gardibolt

Florestan, I did it with the Solti Ring Blu-ray....in the thread on that I described what I did. It's not as easy as ripping a CD, but it can be done.


----------



## Itullian

Just got the latest Solti Ring. I love it!!!

Nice box, nice booklet--notes, synopsis' and cdrom of Cooke talking about the recordings.
And great sound!!!


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> Just got the latest Solti Ring. I love it!!!
> 
> Nice box, nice booklet--notes, synopsis' and cdrom of Cooke talking about the recordings.
> And great sound!!!


Itullian, in your opinion is it radically different enough to justify my buying yet another incarnation of the Solti Ring. I thought the last cd outing was pretty good!


----------



## Itullian

IMHO, Yes, its enough of an improvement to make it worth while. I love this set and wanted the best sound available...
Ears and systems can vary, but for me, I hear a definite improvement in all around sound.


----------



## Itullian

Did you guys know this new Karajan release is remastered?
Check out Amazon UK website.


----------



## cheftimmyr

Barbebleu said:


> Das Rheingold, Hamburg 1952. Wow. Ridiculously cheap from Opera Depot and easily one of the best Rheingolds I have heard. Frantz is a wonderfully authoritative Wotan and Windgassen is brilliant as Loge. The whole thing is amazingly well sung without a single weakness. Schüchter takes it at a nice pace, not too slow and not too fast which I think helps all the singers. Lots of good details from the orchestra too. I am a bit baffled as to what this actually is. I can't find any background info on the net. It was recorded in one day but it is not a live performance in that there is no audience. It might be a studio concert performance and there is a little tape hiss which makes me think it is an off-air recording but I'm really not sure. The sound quality is actually very good and everything is crystal clear. It cost me about £3 or so so there is really no excuse for not adding this to any Wagner collection.


I am reporting back on the aforementioned recording and concur with Barbie that this is a hidden gem "Rheingold". Windgassen is the dark horse of the recording, bringing full life to the character of Loge; a marvelous interpretation. Frantz' Wotan is much better suited to the role than say his Sachs in Meistersinger.

Schucter does get nice color from the orchestra but I did find a few places where the orchestra seemed restrained; nit-picking but worth noting. Sound quality is good for the year of recording. Too cheap not to add to your Wagner collection.... to quote a frequent poster "buy, buy, buy"!

Kleiber Tristan and Keilberth Lohengrin reviews to follow shortly


----------



## gardibolt

Is that part of a full Ring, or just a stray Rheingold? Either way it sounds like it's worth checking out.

I started in a small bit on the Goodall Ring and was surprised at how disorienting it was to hear it in something other than German. We'll let it settle in a while before going on, I think.


----------



## wkasimer

gardibolt said:


> Is that part of a full Ring, or just a stray Rheingold? Either way it sounds like it's worth checking out..


Unfortunately, it's just a stray Rheingold, but definitely worth hearing repeatedly. Excellent sound for the date, and a superb cast, all at their best.



> I started in a small bit on the Goodall Ring and was surprised at how disorienting it was to hear it in something other than German. We'll let it settle in a while before going on, I think.


I think that it's worth getting used to the English, and to Goodall's rather slow tempi, because the cast of this RING, particularly in the three critical roles of Siegfried, Brunnhilde, and Wotan, is as good as it gets on record. The Siegfried recording is particularly good.


----------



## cheftimmyr

wkasimer said:


> Unfortunately, it's just a stray Rheingold, but definitely worth hearing repeatedly. Excellent sound for the date, and a superb cast, all at their best.
> 
> I think that it's worth getting used to the English, and to Goodall's rather slow tempi, because the cast of this RING, particularly in the three critical roles of Siegfried, Brunnhilde, and Wotan, is as good as it gets on record. The Siegfried recording is particularly good.


I just perused the web for the Goodall Ring Cycle... guess I'm saving up! $131 new on Amazon and $90 used... I'm intrigued by hearing the operas sung in English so I might take the plunge at some point; interested to see how the cast stacks up against some of my historical favorites...


----------



## wkasimer

cheftimmyr said:


> I just perused the web for the Goodall Ring Cycle... guess I'm saving up! $131 new on Amazon and $90 used...


Keep in mind that you can probably spend a lot less by looking for the individual components used, or on eBay. And before the Chandos reissue, this was issued by EMI, in slightly less good sound. For example:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00000I3TF

I'd start with Siegfried, because Remedios is nearly ideal in the title role, and Hunter and Bailey are fantastic here.


----------



## SixFootScowl

cheftimmyr said:


> I just perused the web for the Goodall Ring Cycle... guess I'm saving up! $131 new on Amazon and $90 used... I'm intrigued by hearing the operas sung in English so I might take the plunge at some point; interested to see how the cast stacks up against some of my historical favorites...


I got my Goodall Ring used and think it tallied up to close to $90. I think that anyone who is really into the Ring (having multiple cycles and all that) has to get the Goodall Ring, and I would also say they need the Swarowsky Ring as it is a unique production.

Swarowsky's Ring, originally issued on vinyl with cheesecake cover images, has been reissued in a nice compact box set of CDs--image and review here.


----------



## wkasimer

Florestan said:


> I think that anyone who is really into the Ring (having multiple cycles and all that) has to get the Goodall Ring, and I would also say they need the Swarowsky Ring as it is a unique production.


I will admit that the charms of Swarowsky's RING have always eluded me. I actually jettisoned this set a couple of weeks ago. Some of the singing is really excellent as vocalism (particularly the Wotan), and none of it is terrible. But McKee's voice, while it seems to a fine one, becomes very, very wearing after a short time, and there's not much interpretation going on.

The bigger problem is that the entire production sounds as though everyone - the singers, instrumentalists, and even Swarowsky - sounds as though they're gifted sightreaders performing the music for the first time. And given the circumstances around this recording, some of them probably were...


----------



## mountmccabe

I just started the Swarowksy Ring, and _Das Rheingold_ seems fine. Swarowsky has a very good approach and the Czech Philharmonic plays well. I don't really like Rolf Polke as Wotan and Loge (Fritz Uhl) came off as mediocre in scene 2, but even so Loge and Wotan goading Alberich on in scene 3 worked really well. I really could have done without the screams of the Nibelungs sound effects, though. Urgh.

I agree that the Goodall Ring is worth hearing for any native speaker of English, but I would caution against buying it. It will be a long time before I choose to listen to it again. And it will really only be to hear it in English, not for any of the performances. But, hey, we all have different tastes!


----------



## gardibolt

Yeah, I assembled my Goodall Ring in pieces over several months, watching for deals, 3 new, Walküre used, some from Amazon UK and I think I got the whole thing for around $80. You most likely won't find the box set anywhere near that cheap.


----------



## SixFootScowl

gardibolt said:


> Yeah, I assembled my Goodall Ring in pieces over several months, watching for deals, 3 new, Walküre used, some from Amazon UK and I think I got the whole thing for around $80. You most likely won't find the box set anywhere near that cheap.


That's how it worked for me. I first just bought Rheingold because I found a used copy for only $9. Listening to it got me sucked in to the whole thing and before I got done I was out about $88 for the whole set (3 used, 1 new). I should have grabbed it new with the big slipcase for the whole set from PrestoClassical back when they had it on sale new for $100.


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## cheftimmyr

1964 Keilberth Lohengrin via Opera Depot. A surprisingly restrained interpretation from Keilberth on this recording.

Jess Thomas's velvet Swan Knight sustains the opera for the duration and hearing Frick as Heinrich as opposed to Telramund was nice.

Ingrid Bjorner hit all the notes for the part of Elsa but had a rather matronly tone which made me yearning for Grummer. Likewise, Dvorakova suffers from my already hearing Varnay & Ludwig sing the part.

The music is so heavenly that, despite some cast shortcomings and subdued dynamics from Keilberth, Wagner transcends...


----------



## cheftimmyr

My first listening to a Kleiber "Tristan" was most enjoyable! An intense, yet thoughtful, interpretation. The opening prelude was played divinely and this was probably the first Tristan I've heard where at no point does the orchestra takeover the vocals. This meant that there were a few moments where I felt Kleiber could have unleashed the orchestra but it wasn't to the detriment of the opera overall.

Lots of newbies to hear for me; Ligendza's voice was light and fresh; lacking the weight and force of a Flagstad or Nilsson but still able to deliver. A few notes in the upper register may have fell just short.

Wenkoff's best singing is heard in Act III as the tortured knight... he really brings some the helpless anguish to life in Tristan.

I didn't get the other-worldly heat between the two lovers in Act II that comes from Furtwangler, or even Bohm's, performances but the performance is worth hearing Kleiber's interpretation which is very nice. Very glad I added this to the library!


----------



## gardibolt

cheftimmyr said:


> View attachment 95096
> 
> 
> 1964 Keilberth Lohengrin via Opera Depot. A surprisingly restrained interpretation from Keilberth on this recording.
> 
> Jess Thomas's velvet Swan Knight sustains the opera for the duration and hearing Frick as Heinrich as opposed to Telramund was nice.
> 
> Ingrid Bjorner hit all the notes for the part of Elsa but had a rather matronly tone which made me yearning for Grummer. Likewise, Dvorakova suffers from my already hearing Varnay & Ludwig sing the part.
> 
> The music is so heavenly that, despite some cast shortcomings and subdued dynamics from Keilberth, Wagner transcends...


This is actually my favorite Lohengrin recording. I like the more restrained approach, which makes it feel more akin to Parsifal, appropriately enough.


----------



## DarkAngel

cheftimmyr said:


> View attachment 95161
> 
> 
> My first listening to a Kleiber "Tristan" was most enjoyable! An intense, yet thoughtful, interpretation. The opening prelude was played divinely and this was probably the first Tristan I've heard where at no point does the orchestra takeover the vocals. This meant that there were a few moments where I felt Kleiber could have unleashed the orchestra but it wasn't to the detriment of the opera overall.
> 
> Lots of newbies to hear for me; Ligendza's voice was light and fresh; lacking the weight and force of a Flagstad or Nilsson but still able to deliver. A few notes in the upper register may have fell just short.
> 
> Wenkoff's best singing is heard in Act III as the tortured knight... he really brings some the helpless anguish to life in Tristan.
> 
> I didn't get the other-worldly heat between the two lovers in Act II that comes from Furtwangler, or even Bohm's, performances but the performance is worth hearing Kleiber's interpretation which is very nice. Very glad I added this to the library!


I will say this is now probably my favorite Tristan from the 1970s at bargain price and good sound, worthy, very worthy....

I mentioned before I have 3 operadepot Klieber/Ligendza Tristans from 1970s and this is the best one

I think MM mentioned this Tristan previously, good call......


----------



## wkasimer

DarkAngel said:


> I will say this is now probably my favorite Tristan from the 1970s at bargain price and good sound, worthy, very worthy....
> 
> I mentioned before I have 3 operadepot Klieber/Ligendza Tristans from 1970s and this is the best one


And it's in better sound than the other live Kleiber Tristans.


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## Itullian

Pristine is all out of the Krauss Ring


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## wkasimer

Itullian said:


> Pristine is all out of the Krauss Ring


Well, you can save yourself some money by buying this one:

https://www.amazon.com/Ring-Nibelungen-Wagner/dp/B00BGL3FYU









Opera d'Oro is pretty erratic about transfer quality, but I've heard this one and it sounds quite good - not quite as good as the "official" Orfeo issue, but pretty close. I'm pretty sure that Pristine used one of the available CD issues as the basis for their transfer.


----------



## DarkAngel

wkasimer said:


> Well, you can save yourself some money by buying this one:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Ring-Nibelungen-Wagner/dp/B00BGL3FYU
> 
> View attachment 95337
> 
> 
> Opera d'Oro is pretty erratic about transfer quality, but I've heard this one and it sounds quite good - not quite as good as the "official" Orfeo issue, but pretty close. I'm pretty sure that Pristine used one of the available CD issues as the basis for their transfer.


If you have not purchased a Pristine XR remaster you are in for a big surprise especially for 53 Krauss and 50 Furtwangler Rings. The Krauss Orfeo Ring is a small small improvement over opera d oro version, but Prisitne XR is a complete fundemental rework of sound and is a huge advance over Orfeo, a night and day difference.......check the 19+ minute sample of Krauss Gotterdammerung

https://www.pristineclassical.com/products/paco042



> Pristine is all out of the Krauss Ring


Are you sure, Pristine makes the CDR sets to order there is no advance stock, after you order someone makes your CDR copies from stored master.......downloads available immediately


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> If you have not purchased a Pristine XR remaster you are in for a big surprise especially for 53 Krauss and 50 Furtwangler Rings. The Krauss Orfeo Ring is a small small improvement over opera d oro version, but Prisitne XR is a complete fundemental rework of sound and is a huge advance over Orfeo, a night and day difference.......check the 19+ minute sample of Krauss Gotterdammerung
> 
> https://www.pristineclassical.com/products/paco042
> 
> Are you sure, Pristine makes the CDR sets to order there is no advance stock, after you order someone makes your CDR copies from stored master.......downloads available immediately


It said sold out.


----------



## Barbebleu

Operadepot have a Johannistag sale on. There's a nice Meistersinger from Dresden 1951 with Frantz in great voice.


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## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> It said sold out.


I can see them for sale as CDs Itullian. €28 for Rheingold. €42 for Walkure and €56 for Siegfried and Gotterdammerung. No indication that they are sold out. Cheaper if you forego plastic cases and of course you get free MP3 copy.


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## Itullian

my newly remastered Karajan Ring is here.


----------



## Itullian

Itullian said:


> my newly remastered Karajan Ring is here.


It comes in a very nice, sturdy glossy cardboard box.
Nice glossy sturdy cardboard sleeves for the cds with the same picture that's on the front cover. Cast on back of sleeve.
Booklet is glossy paper. Very simple with track listings and casts.
Very nice.


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## gardibolt

Pristine's website was acting funky for a while and giving me the same message. It seems to be working OK now.


----------



## Barbebleu

As it is Johannistag on Friday I have started listening to the Dresden 1951 Meistersinger just released by Opera Depot. It is actually rather wonderful. Super mono recording that would put a lot of modern recordings to shame. Aldenhoff sings Walther with his usual mixed bag of tricks. Great moments and ability marred by the usual suspect intonation and lax attention to the notes he is supposed to sing! Lemnitz is a good Eva, Unger, a first class David, Walter-Sachs is a fine Lena, Kurt Bohme a solid and beautifully sung Pogner, Pflanzl is nice as Beckmesser making him more of a contender rather than a caricature but the real joy is Ferdinand Frantz as a warm and embracing Sachs. Worth it for him and Kempe and the Dresden Staatskapelle alone.


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## gardibolt

That Opera Depot freebie Meistersinger conducted by Goodall has excellent sound quality; I've listened to spots and it seems like a reasonably good performance as well. I'll check out that Dresden one too; I don't have enough Meistersingers to talk about it with any confidence.


----------



## SixFootScowl

gardibolt said:


> That Opera Depot freebie Meistersinger conducted by Goodall has excellent sound quality; I've listened to spots and it seems like a reasonably good performance as well. I'll check out that Dresden one too; I don't have enough Meistersingers to talk about it with any confidence.


Well I just checked out their sound clip and it is pretty good.


----------



## gardibolt

Over last weekend I listened to the Goodall 1977 English Twilight of the Gods. I was pretty impressed overall; I didn't notice the tempo slowness at all, and I thought that as a whole it came off as highly dramatic and tragic. Some parts are miscast (Aage Haugland as Hagen in particular doesn't have the gravitas or evil the part really needs to be satisfying), but most of them were at least satisfactory. Rita Hunter, Alberto Remedios and Norman Welsby all had their moments; in particular Hunter's confrontations with Waltraute and the betrayal scene at the end of Act II are terrific. 

Its greatest strength, which I have to put down to the conductor, was that the production had an overwhelming sense of doom from the Norn Scene to the Immolation. While I've gotten that at times from many other renditions in the past, I can't recall one that had this kind of wall-to-wall foreboding and sense of inexorable tragedy. I was probably helped by low expectations since I didn't much care for Goodall's Valkyrie. While there are some things one could complain about, this was as good a Götterdämmerung as a gestalt that I've ever run across. It works splendidly.


----------



## Granate

I probably should not have, but the Presto Classical sales have affected Amazon.co.uk and the Naxos release of Knappertsbusch Parsifal got stupidly cheap. I care for decent packaging (rather than zyx). I quickly pressed buy at a final cost of 18€.










I haven't even started my Wagner challenge with Stereo yet, but last time I let some sales go was the EMI Celibidache Bruckner set for 19€. But not this time, even if it disappoints me. Spotify samples the same edition and the sound is incredible for 1951. Expecting the album at the end of July.


----------



## SixFootScowl

gardibolt said:


> Over last weekend I listened to the Goodall 1977 English Twilight of the Gods. I was pretty impressed overall; I didn't notice the tempo slowness at all, and I thought that as a whole it came off as highly dramatic and tragic. Some parts are miscast (Aage Haugland as Hagen in particular doesn't have the gravitas or evil the part really needs to be satisfying), but most of them were at least satisfactory. Rita Hunter, Alberto Remedios and Norman Welsby all had their moments; in particular Hunter's confrontations with Waltraute and the betrayal scene at the end of Act II are terrific.
> 
> Its greatest strength, which I have to put down to the conductor, was that the production had an overwhelming sense of doom from the Norn Scene to the Immolation. While I've gotten that at times from many other renditions in the past, I can't recall one that had this kind of wall-to-wall foreboding and sense of inexorable tragedy. I was probably helped by low expectations since I didn't much care for Goodall's Valkyrie. While there are some things one could complain about, this was as good a Götterdämmerung as a gestalt that I've ever run across. It works splendidly.


I suppose that, since it was a live performance, that helped it achieve the remarkable characteristics you note.


----------



## wkasimer

> Some parts are miscast (Aage Haugland as Hagen in particular doesn't have the gravitas or evil the part really needs to be satisfying)


Much as I love Goodall's RING, I agree about Haugland. The voice isn't dark enough, and he's unique in Goodall's cast in that English is clearly not his first language.


----------



## DarkAngel

Granate said:


> I probably should not have, but the Presto Classical sales have affected Amazon.co.uk and the Naxos release of Knappertsbusch Parsifal got stupidly cheap. I care for decent packaging (rather than zyx). I quickly pressed buy at a final cost of 18€.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't even started my Wagner challenge with Stereo yet, but last time I let some sales go was the EMI Celibidache Bruckner set for 19€. But not this time, even if it disappoints me. Spotify samples the same edition and the sound is incredible for 1951. Expecting the album at the end of July.


Very good sound for the 1951 re-opening of new Bayreuth festival, eventually Wagner collectors will want to own it, Naxos is the preferred edition

From the same season in great sound also is famous 51 Gotterdammerung, great in all respects but very pricey, still it is an essential Ring document, Astrid Varnay in great voice takes flight.......Karajan was still in the running for principal Bayreuth conductor but after 52 season was not invited back










More 51 season greatness...........


----------



## Granate

Thank you DA for the tip. But don't worry, for the Wagner Challenge I spent the last 6 months reading the main Wagner posts plus Amazon reviews, included this full "Historical" thread.

But the main Amazon review compares the two Parsifal 1951 releases by Teldec and Naxos, and the reviewer sides with the Teldec album for the sonics (maybe because of the original Telefunken tapes). Does anyone have a second opinion, for or against it?


----------



## wkasimer

Granate said:


> But the main Amazon review compares the two Parsifal 1951 releases by Teldec and Naxos, and the reviewer sides with the Teldec album for the sonics (maybe because of the original Telefunken tapes). Does anyone have a second opinion, for or against it?


When I compared, I thought that the Naxos sounded a little better.


----------



## Barbebleu

Opera Depot intend to release a 1960 Bayruth Ring at the end of the month with Nilsson doing the first cycle Walküre, Siegfried and Götterdämmerung Brunnhildes. While checking to see which dates these were I noticed that there was a lone performance of Siegfried on the 7 August that year with Varnay as Brunnhilde. Can anyone shed any light on this curious incident? Varnay sang the second cycle Walküre and Götterdämmerung Brunnhildes but not the Siegfried!


----------



## DarkAngel

1960 Kempe Ring on Myto is dated July 26-30 1960, brunnhilde role is split with:
Varnay - Walkure 
Nilsson - Siegfried & Gotterdammerung

Now for more fun from same ring split wotan role:
Uhde - wotan (rheingold) & wanderer
Hines - wotan (walkure)

So if operadepot has 60 Ring with Nilsson as brunnhilde in walkure it is different from the Myto Ring above......not sure if Myto is 1st or 2nd Ring of 60 Bayreuth season


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## Barbebleu

Varnay didn't sing Walküre in July. She only sang it on 17 August so either the Myto is misdated or it's a composite and they have popped the August Walküre into the set. Nilsson sang all the first cycle Brünnhildes. Walküre, 27 July, Siegfried, 28 July and Götterdämmerung, 30 July and the second cycle was Siegfried, 18 August and Götterdämmerung, 20 August.

Ühde sang Rheingold Wotan on 26 July and 16 August, Siegfried Wanderer on 28 July and 18 August. Hines sang Walküre Wotan on 27 July and 17 August. Ah, the vagaries of Bayreuth casting!:lol:


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## Bill H.

Pristine has a 20% off sale on all of their Wagner recordings (Brahms and Schoenberg too) this week.

Time to go get some of those gems you've been thinking about, like the Furtwängler La Scala Ring, Potted Ring, Met broadcasts etc.


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## Bill H.

Forgot to mention!! You need to use the discount code "BSW20" upon checkout to get the Pristine price break. Apologies--it's not apparent on the website.


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## Pugg

Opera Depot:

New Free Download
We invite you to a sneak peak at our newest Ring Cycle.

Our version marks the first complete Ring Cycle from the 1960 season at Bayreuth as it was intended with Birgit Nilsson singing all three Brünnhildes.

She is joined by Hans Hopf, Jerome Hines, Hermann Uhde, Wolfgang Windgassen, Thomas Stewart, Gottlob Frick, Hertha Töpper, and Gerhard Stolze. The conductor is Rudolf Kempe.

Two hours of excerpts.


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## Granate

1. Opera Depot has already released the full Kempe cycle with the *three Nilsson Brünnhildes.* It's on sale for the next 12 days.










2. Naxos Knappertsbusch Parsifal 1951 arrived today! I played half an hour on the hi-fi and my father thought for a moment it was a stereo recording. It sounds superb on speakers, even the orchestra.










The booklet is thin, without photos and with a description of the opera for Wagner, telling again the story of the opening of Neu Bayreuth, from the scene, musical and recording characteristics. Additionaly, there is a synopsis of the action track by track.

Plus, there is some information about the Naxos remaster that you may want to know (probably you own older editions)



Mark Obert-Thorn said:


> *Producer's note*
> The classic Knappertsbusch recording of Wagner's Parsifal was made using portions of several performances at the Bayreuth Festpielhaus during July and August of 1951. Decca had not been employing the medium of magnetic tape for very long by that time; and although balance is good and the sense of atmosphere palpable, changes in perspective and audience noise are noticeable at some of their edits. The interpretation was edited by the producer John Culshaw from the general rehearsal and two performances.
> There are other problems with the original master, including post-echo (after Kundry's octave leap in Act II, for example) and switching sounds (probably caused by bad tape azimuth alignment during the loud portions at the opening of Act II), neither of which could be corrected. I have, however, fixed the pitch drop at the end of Act III which plagued later LP reissues of this recording, and have also restored a chord (just before the appearance of the Knights of the Grail in the same act) which was unaccountably cut in some LP editions.


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## DarkAngel

Granate I still say your Naxos is the preferred 51 Parsifal CD set despite comments from Amazon.......

As you collect more of the 1950 Bayreuth Rings in general you will be impressed with sound quality of latest CD remasters from Myto, Walhall, and more expensive Orfeo labels, most sourced from Bavarian Radio Tapes of the operas......

For 53 Krauss Ring and 50 Furtwangler Ring (la scala) it is Pristine XR all the way


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## Granate

DarkAngel said:


> Granate I still say your Naxos is the preferred 51 Parsifal CD set despite comments from Amazon.......
> 
> As you collect more of the 1950 Bayreuth Rings in general you will be impressed with sound quality of latest CD remasters from Myto, Walhall, and more expensive Orfeo labels, most sourced from Bavarian Radio Tapes of the operas......
> 
> For 53 Krauss Ring and 50 Furtwangler Ring (la scala) it is Pristine XR all the way


DA. I know, *I've read this whole thread already!* 

What I couldn't figure out by the amount of posts was the sound quality comparison between the two Keilberth rings from 1952 and 1953. And now, the question is whether the two Kempe rings from 1960 (Operadepot or Myto) are competitive enough with the 50s to be worth a shot.


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## DarkAngel

Granate said:


> DA. I know, *I've read this whole thread already!*
> 
> What I couldn't figure out by the amount of posts was the sound quality comparison between the two Keilberth rings from 1952 and 1953. And now, the question is whether the two Kempe rings from 1960 (Operadepot or Myto) are competitive enough with the 50s to be worth a shot.


I prefer the Myto versions almost always if there is a choice between Myto & Operadepot versions of same opera, the advantage of operadepot is vast number of 1960-70s Bayreuth and other live Wagner not easliy found on any other label.......

Performance wise both 52 & 53 Keilberth Rings are great, sight edge in sound quality to newest 53 boxset me thinks.....








1953

You definitely need a Kempe Ring and 60 Bayreuth was his best season, I woud go with the Myto version but must admit I have not yet heard the operadepot with 3 Nilsson brunnhildes.............


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## DarkAngel

Another even cheaper 53 Keilberth boxset has surfaced at Amazon USA, I would be very surprised if sound quality is equal or better than last years great blue boxset.........


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## wkasimer

> And now, the question is whether the two Kempe rings from 1960 (Operadepot or Myto) are competitive enough with the 50s to be worth a shot.


I haven't heard the entire 1960 Ring, but the Siegfried is quite good, as long as one has a tolerance for Hans Hopf. Excellent sound, too, at least on Myto.


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## wkasimer

DarkAngel said:


> Another even cheaper 53 Keilberth boxset has surfaced at Amazon USA, I would be very surprised if sound quality is equal or better than last years great blue boxset.........


I'll be surprised if the sound isn't identical....


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## Granate

DarkAngel said:


> Another even cheaper 53 Keilberth boxset has surfaced at Amazon USA, I would be very surprised if sound quality is equal or better than last years great blue boxset.........


Does the blue set contain extras like a good booklet with photos, tracklist, synopsis? Probably that justifies the box price the same way Orfeo puts effort in graphic design and booklet information (apart from original tapes remaster). Sorry if this question is too related to the Box set thread I opened in Recordings...


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## Azol

The set does contain a booklet - with an essay, several photos and cast/tracklist for each opera. No sypnosis.


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## Granate

Azol said:


> The set does contain a booklet - with an essay, several photos and cast/tracklist for each opera. No sypnosis.


Is the essay interesting, informative, worth reading compared to your experience?


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## DarkAngel

Granate said:


> Is the essay interesting, informative, worth reading compared to your experience?


Very modest booklet 20 pages, 2 languages, tack listing and cast, 2-3 nice B/W photos, two page summary/essay, not up to Orfeo standards of enhanced booklet.....

CD sleeves are generic white paper, remember this is a budget price boxset 

One of the booklet pix is a famous one with Marhta Modl and horse, but it also appears on CD cover of 57 Siegfried, hmmmmm.....(shouldn't that be from Gotterdammerung?)


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## Azol

DarkAngel said:


> One of the booklet pix is a famous one with Marhta Modl and horse, but it also appears on CD cover of 57 Siegfried, hmmmmm.....(shouldn't that be from Gotterdammerung?)


She does mention Grane to Siegfried in the final scene after all. So give poor beast a chance to shine in Siegfried too


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## JAS

Azol said:


> She does mention Grane to Siegfried in the final scene after all. So give poor beast a chance to shine in Siegfried too


One of the things that seems odd in the Met DVDs of Gotterdammerung is that, in the immolation scene, Brunehilde is singing to her horse that they should join Siegfried, but there is no horse anywhere on the stage. I suppose having an actual horse would be expensive and problematic in a live performance for various reasons. Did historic performances actually have a horse on stage?


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## DarkAngel

wkasimer said:


> I'll be surprised if the sound isn't identical....


I can hear differences in sound between various 1950s Ring sets, many labels do thier own remastering to whatever source media they have.........the new blue box 53 Keilberth is on Pan Classics label but shows Andromeda as associated company, they have older "remastered" boxset available


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## amfortas

JAS said:


> One of the things that seems odd in the Met DVDs of Gotterdammerung is that, in the immolation scene, Brunehilde is singing to her horse that they should join Siegfried, but there is no horse anywhere on the stage. I suppose having an actual horse would be expensive and problematic in a live performance for various reasons. Did historic performances actually have a horse on stage?


They used to bring a horse on stage at the old Metropolitan Opera house. In this recording from 1936 (Lauritz Melchior's only complete _Götterdämmerung_ Siegfried), Marjorie Lawrence, making her debut as the _Götterdämmerung_ Brünnhilde, surprised both audience and conductor when she became the first Met soprano to actually mount her horse and ride it into the flames (drawing on her childhood equestrian experience in her native Australia). You can hear the mid-performance applause in response to her feat.


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## wkasimer

> I can hear differences in sound between various 1950s Ring sets, many labels do thier own remastering to whatever source media they have.........


Sometimes. More often, the cheap labels just steal someone else's transfer. Very easy to do in the digital age.


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## gardibolt

The 1953 Keilberth Ring CDs all have their genesis in one set of bootleg tapes copied on the sly from Bavarian Radio's originals. This is why they all have the Krauss Siegfried Act I. So they're all going to be pretty much the same, depending on how close they got to the bootleg tapes; most likely they're all just digital copies of each other. It'd be nice if someone would do like Orfeo did with the Krauss Ring and go back to the original Bavarian Radio tapes, but that costs money to satisfy BR and Bayreuth, which still controls the rights on those tapes. It can be done; I'm told BR is fine with licensing as is Bayreuth, assuming the licensee coughs up the necessary funds. But there's the rub.


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## Barbebleu

gardibolt said:


> The 1953 Keilberth Ring CDs all have their genesis in one set of bootleg tapes copied on the sly from Bavarian Radio's originals. This is why they all have the Krauss Siegfried Act I. So they're all going to be pretty much the same, depending on how close they got to the bootleg tapes; most likely they're all just digital copies of each other. It'd be nice if someone would do like Orfeo did with the Krauss Ring and go back to the original Bavarian Radio tapes, but that costs money to satisfy BR and Bayreuth, which still controls the rights on those tapes. It can be done; I'm told BR is fine with licensing as is Bayreuth, assuming the licensee coughs up the necessary funds. But there's the rub.


If I had the money I'd do it myself just to have a "proper" and accurate Siegfried!


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## wkasimer

gardibolt said:


> The 1953 Keilberth Ring CDs all have their genesis in one set of bootleg tapes copied on the sly from Bavarian Radio's originals. This is why they all have the Krauss Siegfried Act I. So they're all going to be pretty much the same, depending on how close they got to the bootleg tapes; most likely they're all just digital copies of each other. It'd be nice if someone would do like Orfeo did with the Krauss Ring and go back to the original Bavarian Radio tapes, but that costs money to satisfy BR and Bayreuth, which still controls the rights on those tapes. It can be done; I'm told BR is fine with licensing as is Bayreuth, assuming the licensee coughs up the necessary funds. But there's the rub.


Orfeo has issued quite a few Bayreuth Rings, including Krauss 1953, Knappertsbusch 1956, and most recently Kempe 1961, not to mention numerous other Wagner operas from the Festival, so they're clearly willing to shell out the $$$. My guess is that they don't see much of a market for a complete Keilberth Ring with casts very similar to those already issued, with sonics that are inferior to what Decca accomplished in 1955 (now issued on Testament), including performances of Walkure and Gotterdammerung with Modl instead of Varnay. And they're probably right - I'm a pretty voracious Wagnerian, and even I would have a hard time justifying purchase of the 1953 Keilberth, even with the "correct" Siegfried Act 1 (and there's no guarantee, BTW, that Windgassen was any more accurate under Keilberth than under Krauss).


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## gardibolt

I suppose Orfeo could license just the Siegfried to fix that longstanding error. Maybe they'll get to it but it's not a priority. But the 1953 Keilberth is a very good set regardless.


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## Itullian

What do you guys think?


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## wkasimer

Itullian said:


> What do you guys think?


I assume that it's a reissue of this one:









To be honest, I don't think that I've listened to more than the first disc....


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## Itullian

wkasimer said:


> I assume that it's a reissue of this one:
> 
> View attachment 96533
> 
> 
> To be honest, I don't think that I've listened to more than the first disc....


Why is that?..........


----------



## wkasimer

Itullian said:


> Why is that?..........


Because it's the sort of set that really requires me to sit down with the booklet and pay close attention if I want to get anything out of listening to it - and I rarely have the opportunity to do that.


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## Faustian

Itullian said:


> What do you guys think?


Personally, I find listening to performances from the early years of the 20th century to be interesting from a historical and informative standpoint, but at the same time a rather grueling experience aesthetically. Singers from this era possess the notorious "Bayreuth bark", where they declaim everything with exaggerated stress on consonants, are rhythmically wild, and all over the place with their pitch.


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## howlingfantods

Faustian said:


> Personally, I find listening to performances from the early years of the 20th century to be interesting from a historical and informative standpoint, but at the same time a rather grueling experience aesthetically. Signers from this era possess the notorious "Bayreuth bark", where they declaim everything with exaggerated stress on consonants, are rhythmically wild, and all over the place with their pitch.


Notwithstanding the historical narrative, I actually hear more legato and pure singing in the early part of the 20th century than the middle part of the century. Having said that, the BB was supposedly particularly acute with character roles, and I'd imagine most of the recordings that were made at the time were of the stars singing Wintersturme and the Forging Song and the like, where I hear good legato singing obscured somewhat by recorded sound and often some pretty amazingly hamfisted piano accompaniment.

I suspect much of the rhythm and pitch issues from the era of acoustic recordings are a function of the recording technology, not singing technique. Of course, regardless of cause, these can make listening to those recordings a chore.


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## Woodduck

howlingfantods said:


> Notwithstanding the historical narrative, I actually hear more legato and pure singing in the early part of the 20th century than the middle part of the century. Having said that, the BB was supposedly particularly acute with character roles, and I'd imagine most of the recordings that were made at the time were of the stars singing Wintersturme and the Forging Song and the like, where I hear good legato singing obscured somewhat by recorded sound and often some pretty amazingly hamfisted piano accompaniment.
> 
> I suspect much of the rhythm and pitch issues from the era of acoustic recordings are a function of the recording technology, not singing technique. Of course, regardless of cause, these can make listening to those recordings a chore.


Not only the problems of recording in those days - if we understand the hurdles, we should wonder that early recorded performances are any good at all - but the fact that Wagner's music was still "modern" and performance traditions were still forming, should lead us to expect the diversity, and occasional oddity, of Wagner styling among singers of the time. We may have the "bark" on the one hand, but how often, since then, have we heard Siegfried's forging song sung with this kind of line?






Urlus sings "Wintersturme" as if it were Bellini (a thought that would have pleased Wagner).






I love the way he takes long notes easily and swells through them, the way Melchior often did. Both singers' voices lasted virtually unimpaired throughout their careers. They were obviously doing something right.


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## Itullian

Wonderful Wood duck!! What a voice he had!!!
And notice the tempo is on the slow side.


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## Woodduck

Itullian said:


> Wonderful Wood duck!! What a voice he had!!!
> And notice the tempo is on the slow side.


Jacques Urlus (1867-1935), Dutch tenor, made many recordings and is well worth exploring. He sang everything from Mozart and Verdi to Siegfried and Tristan, and owned the two latter roles at the Met in the pre-Melchior days. A lyric heldentenor. What a concept!


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## gardibolt

I've been working through The Cosima Era boxset. It's best taken in small doses, as far as I'm concerned. Sound quality ranges from decent considering the age of the recordings-obviously those from the late 1920s come out best-to downright wretched. A few (the very early Met cylinders in particular) are nothing but static with the faintest glimpse of some kind of music in the background but without the booklet you'd have no idea what is being sung or by whom. It is interesting to hear the bygone styles, though, and to get a great many examples of performers from or closer to Wagner's 1876 performances. So if authenticity is a concern to you, this is a must, and likewise if historical wagner is your primary interest. I'm very glad to have these recordings, but I can't in good conscience recommend it much for casual listening.


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## Barbebleu

I have a question. As everyone knows the official DG release of the '66 Böhm Tristan was constructed from three separate performances. Can anyone enlighten me as to which parts of which performances went into the release? I have recently acquired an Italian release of the old Frequenz issue of Tristan which was previously thought to be a re-release of the DG set but turned out to be a complete performance taken from a radio broadcast of the 4th August 1966. Basically, I'm curious to know more about the official DG release!


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## wkasimer

Barbebleu said:


> I have a question. As everyone knows the official DG release of the '66 Böhm Tristan was constructed from three separate performances. Can anyone enlighten me as to which parts of which performances went into the release? I have recently acquired an Italian release of the old Frequenz issue of Tristan which was previously thought to be a re-release of the DG set but turned out to be a complete performance taken from a radio broadcast of the 4th August 1966. Basically, I'm curious to know more about the official DG release!


I have the Originals reissue, which says absolutely nothing about the recording dates.


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## howlingfantods

Barbebleu said:


> I have a question. As everyone knows the official DG release of the '66 Böhm Tristan was constructed from three separate performances. Can anyone enlighten me as to which parts of which performances went into the release? I have recently acquired an Italian release of the old Frequenz issue of Tristan which was previously thought to be a re-release of the DG set but turned out to be a complete performance taken from a radio broadcast of the 4th August 1966. Basically, I'm curious to know more about the official DG release!


I don't believe that's correct that these came from actual performances. I recall having read that Bohm's Tristan was recorded one act at a time in an empty Bayreuth house.


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## Woodduck

howlingfantods said:


> I don't believe that's correct that these came from actual performances. I recall having read that Bohm's Tristan was recorded one act at a time in an empty Bayreuth house.


I'm under the same impression. That would account for the complete absence of audience noise. I must admit, though, that it has the tension of a live performance, with Windgassen especially giving all he has in the third act.


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## wkasimer

Woodduck said:


> I'm under the same impression. That would account for the complete absence of audience noise. I must admit, though, that it has the tension of a live performance, with Windgassen especially giving all he has in the third act.


You're right - compared to other recordings from the Festspielhaus, like the Philips issues from the early 60's, this Tristan has much less audience participation.


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## Barbebleu

Ah well, that might explain it. However it begs the question of when did they do these recordings then? I find it hard to believe that they would record them on their days off which when you look at the schedule for '66 looks pretty full-on.


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## Barbebleu

I emailed DG to see if they could shed any light on the Bohm 1966 Tristan. Below is their reply. Clearly their records are about as much use as a chocolate teapot. I can read this blurb off my copy!

Can anyone cite their sources for the three recordings made in an empty theatre and I'll have another go at DG.

Deutsche Grammophon(Universal Music Germany)

Aug 15, 10:03 CEST

Dear Mr. McFadyen,

Thank you very much for your e-mail and your interest in Deutsche Grammophon.
I searched in our system and could find the following information about this recording: http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/cat/4797291

3 CD/Download + High Fidelity Pure Audio Blu-Ray Disc 00289 479 7291
Live recording from the 1966 Bayreuth Festival
Stage production: Wieland Wagner

Recording Date: August 1966
Recording Location: Bayreuth, Festspielhaus
Produced by: Otto Gerdes, Producer / Dr. Hans Hirsch, Producer / Wolfgang Lohse, Recording Producer
Recording Engineer: Günter Hermanns
Format: ADD Stereo

May I ask you to which sources you are you referring to?
With best wishes,
Charis Amend

Deutsche Grammophon Customer Service Team 
************************************************************

Allan McFadyen

Aug 12, 10:45 CEST

Dear sir or madam

Can you give me any information regarding the recording dates of the above recording. I thought it was from live performances but other sources tell me that it was recorded at three separate performances in an empty theatre and no audience was present. Perhaps your archives can provide a definitive answer.

Thank you for your kind assistance in this matter.

Regards

Allan McFadyen


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## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> Ah well, that might explain it. However it begs the question of when did they do these recordings then? I find it hard to believe that they would record them on their days off which when you look at the schedule for '66 looks pretty full-on.












Barbie I just received the deluxe Blu-ray book edition with expanded 123 pages, the final recorded performance is a composite but mainly recorded one act at a time (to rest singers) at a special invitation small audience sessions at Bayreuth, this was then supplemented with takes from 66 Bayreuth season premeire and two later live performances.......so 4 total sources, but mostly from special small audience recording sessions (not an empty theater)......DG info dept must not read their own booklets, ha ha


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## Granate

DarkAngel said:


> Barbie I just received the deluxe Blu-ray book edition with expanded 123 pages, the final recorded performance is a composite but mainly recorded one act at a time (to rest singers) at a special invitation small audience at Bayreuth, this was then supplemented with takes from 66 Bayreuth season premeire and two later live performances.......so 4 total sources, but mostly from special original small audience recording sessions (no empty theater)......DG info dept must not read their own booklets, ha ha


Maybe, in many months, I decide that this Böhm is one recording I must get for Tristan und Isolde in Stereo, but: are the Original Bit Remastering edition, or also the Bayreuth Decca big box from 2008, very inferior in sound quality? How do they compare?


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## DarkAngel

^^^ Any Wagner collection will need to have this Tristan almost universally praised, for CD play I do not hear a big difference in sound and it is not clear to me that deluxe DG package has new remastered CDs, it says remastered "plus" the blu ray on cover artwork but no info in booklet to support this, the blu ray audio disc is obviously a new remaster with 24/96 resolution audio if you have a blu ray capable player

I also bought a different deluxe Decca blu ray edition opera and it does have remastered Cds.........hmmmmm

As with any CD set the info for recording session is almost zero, which should not be the case


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## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> Barbie I just received the deluxe Blu-ray book edition with expanded 123 pages, the final recorded performance is a composite but mainly recorded one act at a time (to rest singers) at a special invitation small audience at Bayreuth, this was then supplemented with takes from 66 Bayreuth season premeire and two later live performances.......so 4 total sources, but mostly from special small audience recording sessions (not an empty theater)......DG info dept must not read their own booklets, ha ha


That's interesting DA. I'll be telling them that in my next missive to them. They surely have archive data that identifies the actual dates of the "special" sessions. The premiere was 4th August and there were two further performances on the 16th and 20th so it would be interesting to know which parts are small audience and which parts are from the actual festival performances. I'll check what else Windgassen, Nilsson and the others were singing in and try and narrow down the free evenings when everyone was available! I know, it's sad but someone has to do it. Interestingly enough Grace Hoffman sang Brangäne on 16 and 20 August so whatever takes they used from the later performances they didn't use anything that Brangäne sang.


----------



## gardibolt

Not yet historic, but I finally got around to listening to the 2017 Bayreuth Meistersinger recording floating around. The Walther (Klaus Florian Vogt) is particularly good, Michael Volle is a serviceable Sachs, and a pretty lively production overall I thought (I didn't have to look at it, so I can judge purely on what I hear). I hadn't been familiar with Philippe Jordan (currently conductor of the Vienna SO, soon to be conductor of the Vienna State Opera), but he may be someone to watch for in future Wagner productions. He's quite good with both the big and intimate moments.


----------



## howlingfantods

gardibolt said:


> Not yet historic, but I finally got around to listening to the 2017 Bayreuth Meistersinger recording floating around. The Walther (Klaus Florian Vogt) is particularly good, Michael Volle is a serviceable Sachs, and a pretty lively production overall I thought (I didn't have to look at it, so I can judge purely on what I hear). I hadn't been familiar with Philippe Jordan (currently conductor of the Vienna SO, soon to be conductor of the Vienna State Opera), but he may be someone to watch for in future Wagner productions. He's quite good with both the big and intimate moments.


Woof, I thought Vogt and Volle were terrible. Vogt's choirboy sound totally doesn't work for Walther at all, and Volle was a huge disappointment as Sachs for me since I'd been reading good reviews of his Sachs for the past couple of years. Perhaps you heard a different day's performance than the one that's on youtube, and perhaps Volle was in better voice? On the youtube posted performance, Volle doesn't have the size or resonance or the breath for Sachs at all, so far below the demands of the part to even assess his interpretative approach.

I do like Philippe Jordan--he conducted a far better cast Meistersinger last year with the Paris Opera and a decent Tristan a couple of years back. I believe he's been engaged for the 2019 Met Ring. So far I wouldn't consider him an exceptional Wagnerian but he is a promising one. He is the late Armin Jordan's son, the conductor of a very good Parsifal recording, in case the name rings a bell.


----------



## Itullian

howlingfantods said:


> Woof, I thought Vogt and Volle were terrible. Vogt's choirboy sound totally doesn't work for Walther at all, and Volle was a huge disappointment as Sachs for me since I'd been reading good reviews of his Sachs for the past couple of years. Perhaps you heard a different day's performance than the one that's on youtube, and perhaps Volle was in better voice? On the youtube posted performance, Volle doesn't have the size or resonance or the breath for Sachs at all, so far below the demands of the part to even assess his interpretative approach.
> 
> I do like Philippe Jordan--he conducted a far better cast Meistersinger last year with the Paris Opera and a decent Tristan a couple of years back. I believe he's been engaged for the 2019 Met Ring. So far I wouldn't consider him an exceptional Wagnerian but he is a promising one. He is the late Armin Jordan's son, the conductor of a very good Parsifal recording, in case the name rings a bell.


I avoid Vogt at all costs.


----------



## Itullian

Hello Wagner friends
Couple of questions please.........

This Kemp Ring is different than the Kempe on Myto, correct?
This one is 1961 and the Myto is 1960 I believe?

Anyone know how they compare?
1 Sound
2 Performance

Thank you :tiphat:


----------



## gardibolt

howlingfantods said:


> Woof, I thought Vogt and Volle were terrible. Vogt's choirboy sound totally doesn't work for Walther at all, and Volle was a huge disappointment as Sachs for me since I'd been reading good reviews of his Sachs for the past couple of years.


While we could talk about Volle, "choirboy" to me sounds absolutely perfect for Walther, who is utterly clueless about what he is getting himself into.


----------



## gardibolt

Itullian said:


> Hello Wagner friends
> Couple of questions please.........
> 
> This Kemp Ring is different than the Kempe on Myto, correct?
> This one is 1961 and the Myto is 1960 I believe?
> 
> Anyone know how they compare?
> 1 Sound
> 2 Performance
> 
> Thank you :tiphat:


Without going back to them, I don't recollect any glaring differences in the performances. Sound is obviously better on the Orfeo since it's from the Bavarian Radio tapes, while the Myto is a bootleg who knows how many generations removed from BR's tapes.


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## howlingfantods

gardibolt said:


> While we could talk about Volle, "choirboy" to me sounds absolutely perfect for Walther, who is utterly clueless about what he is getting himself into.


It sounds like you have a very different conception of Walther than I do, and more importantly very different from the one that Wagner did. I think Wagner thinks Walther is a visionary genius and should sound heroic and lyrical, a capital R Romantic.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Hello Wagner friends
> Couple of questions please.........
> 
> This Kemp Ring is different than the Kempe on Myto, correct?
> This one is 1961 and the Myto is 1960 I believe?
> 
> Anyone know how they compare?
> 1 Sound
> 2 Performance
> 
> Thank you :tiphat:


I was never able to find an entire 61 or 62 Kempe Ring on Myto just some of the operas for those years, but 60 Kempe is available complete on Myto in 4 separate operas.

I did buy the 61 Kempe Orfeo boxset to get the complete Ring and nicer packaging and booklet, can't say that I noticed big difference in sound between Orfeo and Myto in 61.....also remember they were still doing 2 Rings each season

I think the 60 Kempe is best overall Ring bewteen those three years 60, 61, 62


----------



## amfortas

gardibolt said:


> While we could talk about Volle, "choirboy" to me sounds absolutely perfect for Walther, who is utterly clueless about what he is getting himself into.





howlingfantods said:


> It sounds like you have a very different conception of Walther than I do, and more importantly very different from the one that Wagner did. I think Wagner thinks Walther is a visionary genius and should sound heroic and lyrical, a capital R Romantic.


I'd say he partakes of both, though neither is the whole story. He's not Parsifal, but he's not Siegfried.


----------



## howlingfantods

amfortas said:


> I'd say he partakes of both, though neither is the whole story. He's not Parsifal, but he's not Siegfried.


Oh, I don't really want or expect a Siegfried either. In fact, I actually do like even more heroic voices for Parsifal than Walther, but my ideal Walthers are Konya, Domingo and Heppner--spintos with a lot of big golden tones.


----------



## Aragorn

I just discovered the two remastered CDs of Wagner Overtures and preludes featuring Knappertsbusch and Munich on _MCA Classics_. This is my first hearing of Knappertsbusch. I found these recordings to be very precise and clean, perhaps a bit slow here and there but altogether pleasing.

I have quite a few Wagner recordings -- individual and sets - Including Bernstein, von Karajan, Tennstedt. Dorati, Sinopoli, Bohm, Solti, and Barenboim. There are individual performances among this group that I like as much or more, but these Knappertsbusch CDs were a nice addition to my collection.


----------



## Granate

Welcome to Talk Classical, Aragorn. I'm not in there yet but I guess that Knappertsbusch had a way with Wagner. I've seen three different versions on CD of his overtures:


----------



## kineno

They're also in this collection: https://www.amazon.com/Great-Wagner...75379&sr=8-1&keywords=Great+Wagner+Conductors


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## DarkAngel

Granate said:


> Welcome to Talk Classical, Aragorn. I'm not in there yet but I guess that Knappertsbusch had a way with Wagner. I've seen three different versions on CD of his overtures:


A "gateway" purchase of Knap wagner overtures to enter the magical world of 1950s Bayreuth Rings and the many great Parsifals, listen then buy, valhalla awaits ye............


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## MAS

I love this cover, but the CDs had some strange melting damage to them, and were not playable. Bad pressing, or CD-RWs?


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## DarkAngel

MAS said:


> I love this cover, but the CDs had some strange melting damage to them, and were not playable. Bad pressing, or CD-RWs?
> 
> View attachment 97360


Oh no, you got a defective Opera d Oro set, they are factory pressed CDs with great art deco graphics theme at very low price.

The very best sound for 53 Krauss Ring is with Pristine XR (unlike the Callas thread where RES does not like Prisitne XR for Wagner we all agree they are the gold standard by large margin)


----------



## wkasimer

> for Wagner we all agree they are the gold standard by large margin


Not everyone agrees.


----------



## DarkAngel

> Not everyone agrees.


What is better than Pristine XR for 53 Krauss Ring.......


----------



## MAS

DarkAngel said:


> Oh no, you got a defective Opera d Oro set, they are factory pressed CDs with great art deco graphics theme at very low price.
> 
> The very best sound for 53 Krauss Ring is with Pristine XR (unlike the Callas thread where RES does not like Prisitne XR for Wagner we all agree they are the gold standard by large margin)


I was just listening to some of the excerpts there. Some great sounding remastering. I'm looking at the Scala Ring (For the 2 Fs, Flagstad and Furtwangler). Miraculous unearthing of lost sound.


----------



## DarkAngel

^^^^ The 50 Furtwangler Ring (la scala) is really an amazing restoration on Pristine XR, perhaps Rose's most dramatic improvement in sound compared to any previously available CD version, this will turn heretics into true believers


----------



## MAS

DarkAngel said:


> ^^^^ The 50 Furtwangler Ring (la scala) is really an amazing restoration on Pristine XR, perhaps Rose's most dramatic improvement in sound compared to any previously available CD version, this will turn heretics into true believers


Yes. I'm not a fan of Varnay or Moedl, so I'd not be going for any of the other great Rings...


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## wkasimer

DarkAngel said:


> What is better than Pristine XR for 53 Krauss Ring.......


The official release on Orfeo, which is probably the source that Pristine tarted up.

I know that many people swear by Pristine's releases, but I'd rather hear what was actually on the original source, not what someone thinks "sounds nice". And I'd much prefer someone who is honest about his source material.


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## MAS

wkasimer said:


> The official release on Orfeo, which is probably the source that Pristine tarted up.
> 
> I know that many people swear by Pristine's releases, but I'd rather hear what was actually on the original source, not what someone thinks "sounds nice". And I'd much prefer someone who is honest about his source material.


To my mind, if the source material is unlistenable and gives me no pleasure, I'd be grateful to have any recording that improves it. If you don't like Ambient Stereo, you can get it in mono. No one can stop you. Results can be remarkable. If you haven't yet, try listening to the excerpts on Pristine's website for what is possible!

[video]https://www.pristineclassical.com/products/pabx004[/video]


----------



## DarkAngel

wkasimer said:


> The official release on Orfeo, which is probably the source that Pristine tarted up.
> 
> I know that many people swear by Pristine's releases, but I'd rather hear what was actually on the original source, not what someone thinks "sounds nice". And I'd much prefer someone who is honest about his source material.


Well if you have actually owned both we will agree to disagree.....

I had the Orfeo 53 Krauss Ring boxset and it was a small step better than the Opera d Oro edition, but the Pristine XR was a very noticeable larger step better than Orfeo set, there are whole levels of fine detail uncovered that are not heard on Orfeo edition, Rose is very honest open about his process and it is detailed at his website, he works from best available original record sources and tapes not some other companies recent CD remasters.

I still own many Orfeo Wagner sets as they often are the best CD sound currently available with very nice package and booklets










Andrew Rose - Pristine Audio


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## wkasimer

DarkAngel said:


> Rose is very honest open about his process and it is detailed at his website, he works from best available original record sources and tapes not some other companies recent CD remasters.


Have you asked him what his source was for the Krauss RING cycle? It's not mentioned on his website, and I've asked him three times, without an answer.

He's honest about his sources - sometimes. Other times, not so much.


----------



## wkasimer

MAS said:


> To my mind, if the source material is unlistenable and gives me no pleasure,


I assume that you've never heard the Orfeo release. It's hardly "unlistenable".



> If you haven't yet, try listening to the excerpts on Pristine's website for what is possible!


I have. They mostly sound artificial to my ears. The only one that I've heard that represents an improvement over other issues is the 1953 RAI Ring, and that's because EMI keeps screwing it up.


----------



## MAS

wkasimer said:


> I assume that you've never heard the Orfeo release. It's hardly "unlistenable".


No, I wasn't speaking specifically of the Orfeo release, but of others, which Pristine has helped. I understand that not everyone is going to like what Pristine does but, in some cases, it can be a remarkable improvement.


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## howlingfantods

wkasimer said:


> I assume that you've never heard the Orfeo release. It's hardly "unlistenable".
> 
> I have. They mostly sound artificial to my ears. The only one that I've heard that represents an improvement over other issues is the 1953 RAI Ring, and that's because EMI keeps screwing it up.


Other than the La Scala Furtwangler Ring, I don't think most of the recordings I've replaced with Pristine's remasterings were unlistenable. But to me, I consider many of the Pristine versions I have now far better sounding than other available sources, and I derive far more pleasure from those recordings now.

I'm not totally sure what it might mean to say that something sounds artificial in this context. I hear a lot of audible artifice in studio recordings of the 60s and 70s, or even audible tape splices or obvious volume shifts done in the mix. I don't hear anything to that level of artifice in the Pristine recordings I have. Perhaps there's a little boominess to the bass in some of their mixes from extremely bass-starved sources, but I prefer that to what those recordings sound like otherwise.


----------



## wkasimer

> I'm not totally sure what it might mean to say that something sounds artificial in this context.


What I mean is that instruments don't sound like real instruments, and balances don't sound right. Rose talks about modelling the sound after the Solti RING - if I want to hear that sort of sound, I'll just pull the Solti off the shelf. If I want to hear Krauss, or Furtwangler, I'd rather hear what was there originally, not what someone thinks should have been there. Voices do OK by Pristine, but some of the instruments take on a metallic sheen that I find rather unpleasant - the Casals Bach suites is a good example.


----------



## amfortas

wkasimer said:


> What I mean is that instruments don't sound like real instruments, and balances don't sound right. Rose talks about modelling the sound after the Solti RING - if I want to hear that sort of sound, I'll just pull the Solti off the shelf. If I want to hear Krauss, or Furtwangler, I'd rather hear what was there originally, not what someone thinks should have been there. Voices do OK by Pristine, but some of the instruments take on a metallic sheen that I find rather unpleasant - the Casals Bach suites is a good example.


Fortunately, none of us is required to purchase, or listen to, any particular version.


----------



## howlingfantods

wkasimer said:


> What I mean is that instruments don't sound like real instruments, and balances don't sound right. Rose talks about modelling the sound after the Solti RING - if I want to hear that sort of sound, I'll just pull the Solti off the shelf. If I want to hear Krauss, or Furtwangler, I'd rather hear what was there originally, not what someone thinks should have been there. Voices do OK by Pristine, but some of the instruments take on a metallic sheen that I find rather unpleasant - the Casals Bach suites is a good example.


I haven't detected this metallic sheen you mention, across the dozens of recordings I have, from recordings from the 20s to the 50s and wildly varying original recording quality. But all of my Pristine recordings are either operatic or symphonic, and I don't have any solo instrumental recordings (although I've been considering the Schnabel Beethoven) so perhaps what you're referring to is more of an issue on those?

I seem to be in a sweet spot of not being able to detect what bothers you but being sensitive enough to extravagantly appreciate what they've done to many of my favorite recordings in my collection. For those similarly afflicted/blessed, I would continue to highly recommend their remastering process.


----------



## WildThing

howlingfantods said:


> (although I've been considering the Schnabel Beethoven)


Absolutely love what Pristine has done with these. Totally worth it. I don't hear any metallic sheen to them, just less surface noise and fuller sound.


----------



## wkasimer

amfortas said:


> Fortunately, none of us is required to purchase, or listen to, any particular version.


Which, in this case, is most fortunate, since Pristine's prices are outrageous.


----------



## Itullian

wkasimer said:


> Which, in this case, is most fortunate, since Pristine's *prices are outrageous*.


You can say that again!


----------



## howlingfantods

wkasimer said:


> Which, in this case, is most fortunate, since Pristine's prices are outrageous.


They're about $8 per CD's worth of music for a download, $12 for a shipped disk in a sleeve, or $17 per with a clamshell and printed artwork. It's not cheap but I'd hardly call that outrageous.

I only do downloads so the prices seem very reasonable to me, especially considering how many times I've purchased these recordings in other pressings before. I've probably bought the Furtwangler wartime Beethoven in a half dozen versions before Pristine's for instance, so $7 or $8 per disk for these in good enough sound to make me satisfied with not seeking out other pressings is a huge bargain for me.


----------



## Barbebleu

I've recently finished listening to Tristan und Isolde in an edition from an Italian manufacturer from Bayreuth 1966 released as Tristano y Isotta. This is not the same as the DG release and is in fact the performance from the 4th August of that year. Quite a lot of this will have been used for DG's composite version as Christa Ludwig only sang Brangaene on the 4th so all of her part must therefore have been used by DG. It is very good as you would expect and there was no real evidence of either Windgassen or Nilsson tiring in the third act. It's lively as Böhm didn't dawdle when conducting but I felt it wasn't as quick as the DG composite. Perhaps they chose all the speedy stuff from the other sources! Worth tracking down. I got mine on Amazon.co.uk at a bargain price.

The other set I listened to which strictly speaking is out with the historical boundary, which for me should be fifty years, was Tannhäuser, Bayreuth 1977.

Well where to begin. Imagine if you will Herr Wagner sitting writing this at home. Let's have two principal female roles he thinks. One depicting sensual depravity and I'll call her Venus, the other virginal purity and I'll call her Elisabeth. I'll make sure that they never occupy the stage at the same time so people don't get confused as to which is which which shouldn't happen anyway as they'll be sung by different people! Surely some knumbskull director couldn't possibly persuade some poor benighted soprano to essay both rôles in the same evening. 

Let's return to 1977 and lo and behold sum knumbskull director made Dame Gwyneth an offer she couldn't refuse. I can hear his argument - Venus and Elisabeth, two sides of the same coin, both exert influence over Tannhäuser, makes sense don't you think to have them sung by the same person and to sweeten the deal I'll stick another fifty grand onto your fee.

Mendacity can surely have been the only reason that Gwyneth, at that stage in her career, decided that she should do both parts. She certainly convinces as Venus but lacks that spiritual element that a great Elisabeth requires.

Anyway this is the least of this recordings problems. Note the name of this opera. There's a clue in the title. Yes fans, it's called Tannhäuser and its main requirement is someone who can sing the part and regrettably in this case that person is not Hermin Esser. He can barely carry a tune in a bucket and the demands of this part are way above pay grade and ability. This Minnesänger would surely have been drummed out of the guild and him and his harp unceremoniously thrown over the Wartburg ramparts based on his wayward intonation alone. His approximate rendition of this part would be difficult to follow with radar and no amount of good stuff from the rest of the line-up can make up for this. Colin Davis gets good things out of the orchestra and chorus and Hans Sotin is fine as is everyone else but without the title character it falls and lands with a dull thud in the Thuringian forest much as our eponymous hero. Oh dear, oh dear. His anneés de pelerinage failed to find him a half decent voice. Perhaps the time would have been better spent taking singing lessons. Lest you think me a bit harsh listen first and then judge.


----------



## Woodduck

Barbebleu said:


> His approximate rendition of this part would be difficult to follow with radar


When I use that one I'll be sure to preface it with, "As a distinguished critic once said..."


----------



## gardibolt

DarkAngel said:


> Well if you have actually owned both we will agree to disagree.....
> 
> I had the Orfeo 53 Krauss Ring boxset and it was a small step better than the Opera d Oro edition, but the Pristine XR was a very noticeable larger step better than Orfeo set, there are whole levels of fine detail uncovered that are not heard on Orfeo edition, Rose is very honest open about his process and it is detailed at his website, he works from best available original record sources and tapes not some other companies recent CD remasters.
> 
> I still own many Orfeo Wagner sets as they often are the best CD sound currently available with very nice package and booklets
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andrew Rose - Pristine Audio


The principal advantage to my mind that the Orfeo Krauss set has is that they used the Bavarian Radio original master tapes so they're closer to the source; along with that, the beginning of Siegfried has the timpani intro that's missing from every other version. But until the Orfeo came out I was more than happy with the Pristine Krauss Ring. Now if Orfeo would only do the 1953 Keilberth from the BR tapes as well, so we finally get the first act of his Siegfried!


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## Barbebleu

That would indeed be good. Perhaps we should all petition Orfeo but I suspect it would have little effect!


----------



## gardibolt

Barbebleu said:


> That would indeed be good. Perhaps we should all petition Orfeo but I suspect it would have little effect!


Oh, good idea! I have written an email to Orfeo, so I will see whether it's something on their radar---they may not even know about the whole Krauss-Keilberth contretemps. It seems like a marketing opportunity for them.


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## Barbebleu

As "like" seems to have vanished for the moment consider this to be one, Gardibolt!:tiphat:


----------



## Barbebleu

gardibolt said:


> Oh, good idea! I have written an email to Orfeo, so I will see whether it's something on their radar---they may not even know about the whole Krauss-Keilberth contretemps. It seems like a marketing opportunity for them.


If they are as good as DG at responding positively I would suggest you refrain from holding your breath in anticipation.


----------



## gardibolt

Considering they're a much, much smaller outfit, I think the odds of a reply are a little better, but no I don't expect a response.


----------



## Granate

50% Percent off of all rings in Opera Depot ending in 7 days.
Plus a free download of the complete 1961 Bayreuth Ring.
Which should I get from the catalogue? The brand new Kempe 1960, or one outside Bayreuth?


----------



## Barbebleu

Granate said:


> 50% Percent off of all rings in Opera Depot ending in 7 days.
> Plus a free download of the complete 1961 Bayreuth Ring.
> Which should I get from the catalogue? The brand new Kempe 1960, or one outside Bayreuth?


Difficult choice. I have the Kempe '61 so I got the Sawallisch '77 but if I hadn't already got the Kempe that would have been my first choice.


----------



## DarkAngel

Granate said:


> 50% Percent off of all rings in Opera Depot ending in 7 days.
> Plus a free download of the complete 1961 Bayreuth Ring.
> Which should I get from the catalogue? The brand new Kempe 1960, or one outside Bayreuth?


The Opera Depot is good for Bayreuth during 1962-77 period otherwise hard to find, try to spead out every 3-4 years to catch the new group of singers as they evolve.....for 1952-61 Bayreuth the Myto, Walhall, or Orfeo offer best sound at reasonable prices

The live Karajan Salzburg Ring different experience than DG studio, very worthy.............

Three winners in very good sound

























Then take out you wallet open wide buy this must have stereo sound document of 1955 Bayreuth, *there can be only one.....*












> The brand new *Kempe 1960*, or one outside Bayreuth


The 60 Kempe Bayreuth is also excellent, but I have it in Myto label individually can't say how it sounds in opera depot......usually Walhall, Myto, Orfeo CDs will sound better vs opera depot if money is no object


----------



## DarkAngel

Then get 57 Knap and 53 Keilberth


----------



## wkasimer

Granate said:


> 50% Percent off of all rings in Opera Depot ending in 7 days.
> Plus a free download of the complete 1961 Bayreuth Ring.
> Which should I get from the catalogue? The brand new Kempe 1960, or one outside Bayreuth?


If you don't have a RING with Jean Cox as Siegfried, I'd opt for one of those - he seems to have largely eluded the studio, and few of his live recordings have been issued on CD. The 1968 Munich features him, as do some of the early to mid 1970's Bayreuth RING cycles conducted by Horst Stein.


----------



## The Conte

I'm surprised not to see mention of these alternates for the 1955 Bayreuth Ring. Ones for the Moedl fans:

















N.


----------



## Itullian

The Conte said:


> I'm surprised not to see mention of these alternates for the 1955 Bayreuth Ring. Ones for the Moedl fans:
> 
> View attachment 97868
> 
> 
> View attachment 97869
> 
> 
> N.


They're in here somewhere.


----------



## DarkAngel

The Conte said:


> I'm surprised not to see mention of these alternates for the 1955 Bayreuth Ring. Ones for the Moedl fans:
> 
> View attachment 97868
> 
> 
> View attachment 97869
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> N.


No Conte we would never forget those two great stereo versions of the second ring of 55 Bayreuth season, first we must get Granate to buy the primary 55 Ring set and supplement with those......those two are extremely pricey additions but almost impossible to resist


----------



## Granate

DarkAngel said:


> Then get 57 Knap and 53 Keilberth


I ordered the ugly Membran 53 Ring.
I hope that it is a worthy purchase even if the packaging isn't remarkable. I'm curious if that blue set and this ugly Membran have the same rips.


----------



## Granate

DarkAngel said:


> No Conte we would never forget those two great stereo versions of the second ring of 55 Bayreuth season, *first we must get Granate to buy the primary 55 Ring set and supplement with those*......those two are extremely pricey additions but almost impossible to resist


You won't succeed in 15 years... :lol: I spent another 24€ in two weeks and I feel guilty for it. Imagine 160€ in 14 cds.


----------



## wkasimer

DarkAngel said:


> No Conte we would never forget those two great stereo versions of the second ring of 55 Bayreuth season, first we must get Granate to buy the primary 55 Ring set and supplement with those......those two are extremely pricey additions but almost impossible to resist


I think that these are currently available at Berkshire Record Outlet, at more or less reasonable prices (US$8.99 per CD).


----------



## The Conte

Granate said:


> I ordered the ugly Membran 53 Ring.
> I hope that it is a worthy purchase even if the packaging isn't remarkable. I'm curious if that blue set and this ugly Membran have the same rips.


Do report back on the sound, I'm dying for a release of that Ring in clear sound. (I wish Orfeo would release it.)

N.


----------



## gardibolt

Another one not to be missed from Opera Depot if you don't have it is the 1977 Boulez; splendid sound and a really good all-round performance. I think they have both 1976 and 1977 but the 1977 is the better quality one.


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> Another one not to be missed from Opera Depot if you don't have it is the *1977 Boulez*; splendid sound and a really good all-round performance. I think they have both 1976 and 1977 but the 1977 is the better quality one*.*


Right on Bro........see post 2988


----------



## Granate

*Early Kirsten Flagstad*









B00004YYQL









B000NA6N3K (faulty sound)









B0001EMZZS (excellent sound)









B000G6H498 (unbelievable sound for Oslo)









B0042ZUNKG

What's your take on the prime age of Kirsten Flagstad? I was sampling for entertainment her aria in Lohengrin and I was fascinated for her intensity. But it's tricky at the end of Fjelstad's Götterdämmerung in 1955. I can't find that at all in the Furtwängler Scala 1950; she sounds "burnt", heavy. But there's nothing of that in the Oslo Brünnhilde.

If you search those ASINs in Bookbutler, you can find the cheapest edition available.


----------



## wkasimer

Granate said:


> B00004YYQL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> B000NA6N3K (faulty sound)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> B0001EMZZS (excellent sound)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> B000G6H498 (unbelievable sound for Oslo)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> B0042ZUNKG
> 
> What's your take on the prime age of Kirsten Flagstad? I was sampling for entertainment her aria in Lohengrin and I was fascinated for her intensity. The same happens at the end of Fjelstad's Götterdämmerung, but I can't find that at all in the Furtwängler Scala. She sounds "burnt", heavy.
> 
> If you search those ASINs in Bookbutler, you can find the cheapest edition available.


Flagstad's prime is anything before she left the US at the beginning of WW2 (1940, I think). After the war, the voice sounded more and more matronly, and she became even more placid as an interpreter.

BTW, that Walhall edition of the Oslo Gotterdammerung is pitched rather sharp; if you want to hear it properly, find the Naxos edition:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wagner-Gotterdammerung-Naxos-Historical-8-112066-69/dp/B007C7FED2


----------



## Granate

*Keilberth 1953 Ring - Intense Media*










*Wagner: Der Ring des Nibelungen*
Bayreuther Festspiele
Joseph Keilberth
July 1953
B071YX3WCC

The famous "ugly ring" arrived, and the box is not as ugly as I thought! It has a colourful cardboard box and sleeves (not tight FYI) and shows tracks and cast on the back of each sleeve. There is no booklet.

If it was my first listen, I would swear that the sound is fantastic, on the same level of many Callas Studio operas. But after a comparison I think these CDs don't have the audio quality that others could. I explain.

I played the *"Kühlende Labung gab mir der Quell"* (Siegmund & Sieglinde) from Die Walküre (CD3 from the set) and felt Vinay's Siegmund voice a bit distorted in the loud parts. But when I listen to a pirate rip from the 2004 Andromeda set (B0006NH67G), Vinay's voice is magically clean and with no sign of distortion. I may upload a rip of my own cd so you can compare with the "Blue box".

I may guess that if Membran uses *slightly* worse sources or at least they don't fix any sound issue, you the Wagner lovers should keep buying the Orfeo or Andromeda releases. But I would definetely reccomend these Membran boxes to some of my friends who are casual Wagner listeners.


----------



## The Conte

Granate said:


> *Wagner: Der Ring des Nibelungen*
> Bayreuth Festspiele
> Joseph Keilberth
> July 1953
> B071YX3WCC
> 
> The famous "ugly ring" arrived, and the box is not as ugly as I thought! It has a colourful cardboard box and sleeves (not tight FYI) and shows tracks and cast on the back of each sleeve. There is no booklet.
> 
> If it was my first listen, I would swear that the sound is fantastic, on the same level of many Callas Studio operas. But after a comparison I think these CDs don't have the audio quality that others could. I explain.
> 
> I played the *"Kühlende Labung gab mir der Quell"* (Siegmund & Sieglinde) from Die Walküre (CD3 from the set) and felt Vinay's Siegmund voice a bit distorted in the loud parts. But when I listen to a pirate rip from the 2004 Andromeda set (B0006NH67G), Vinay's voice is magically clean and with no sign of distortion. I may upload a rip of my own cd so you can compare with the "Blue box".
> 
> I may guess that if Membran uses *slightly* worse sources or at least they don't fix any sound issue, you the Wagner lovers should keep buying the Orfeo or Andromeda releases. But I would definetely reccomend these Membran boxes to some of my friends who are casual Wagner listeners.


I wasn't expecting the sound to be better than Andromeda going on past Membran issues, however it would be great if you can link to audio file comparisons. Then we can decide for ourselves!

N.


----------



## Granate

*Die Walküre - Act II (Beginning)*
Hans Hotter
Martha Mödl
Ira Malaniuk
*Bayreuth Festspiele
Joseph Keilberth
July 1953
2017 Intense Media Issue (B071YX3WCC)*

*Link of my rip*


----------



## wkasimer

> The famous "ugly ring" arrived, and the box is not as ugly as I thought! It has a colourful cardboard box and sleeves (not tight FYI) and shows tracks and cast on the back of each sleeve. There is no booklet.
> 
> If it was my first listen, I would swear that the sound is fantastic, on the same level of many Callas Studio operas. But after a comparison I think these CDs don't have the audio quality that others could. I explain.


Does this Keilberth RING use the Krauss recording for Act 1 of Siegfried? Previous issues of this recording have, for whatever reason, used the Krauss recording for that particular act, which is a shame, because Windgassen makes hash out of the forging scene.


----------



## Granate

^^

If Membran was selling for *$12* the *first release* of the complete Keilberth Ring with the true Siegfried Act I and not a copy of the Krauss cycle, they would be *dumb.* I am not even asking myself that question and I'm not even going to compare the two releases. I never expected this to happen and only when Orfeo uses the Original BR tapes, the true Keilberth Siegfried Act I will come to light.

And thanks for the Oslo Götterdämmerung Naxos/Walhall advice. On my Spotify list.


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## Itullian

Does anyone know why the Krauss Act 1 was substituted in the first place?


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## DarkAngel

You have a Mondrian replica modern art masterpiece Wagner Ring..............


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## Johnmusic

_*This is magnificent*_
Frieda Leider and Lauritz Melchior sing the duet from act 2 of "Tristan und Isolde" on HMV D1723 and D1724, recorded in 1929.





*as is
*Wagner: Die Walkure, Act II (Lehmann, Melchior, 1935-38) 





Jacques Urlus, Schmiedelied, Wagner: Siegfried (Edison, 1915)


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## Barbebleu

Johnmusic said:


> _*This is magnificent*_
> Frieda Leider and Lauritz Melchior sing the duet from act 2 of "Tristan und Isolde" on HMV D1723 and D1724, recorded in 1929.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *as is
> *Wagner: Die Walkure, Act II (Lehmann, Melchior, 1935-38)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jacques Urlus, Schmiedelied, Wagner: Siegfried (Edison, 1915)


Good stuff which is well trodden territory for a lot of us on this and any other Wagner thread. Never fear though, always good to be reminded about real singing.:tiphat:


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## Ragnar

Hello everyone, I'am new here. Have read just about this entire thread. I have learned alot from all of you, thank you. I have purchased some of the performances based off of your discussions, but still have many many to go. I love the Ring cycle. I think it is the most incredible piece of music i have ever heard. I feel so enriched for it being there and wish i could thank Wagner personally. Besides Tristan and Lohengrin I haven't engulfed myself in the other operas yet, though i have copies of them all. My newest just today is Lohengrin Eugen Jochum 1954 Bayreuth. I just cant escape the need for more Rings though. I know iam missing alot but are there any must haves that i need to hear asap? Here is what i have for the Ring
Solti studio 
Karajan studio 
Boulez 80 
Boulez 76. 
Keilberth 55. 
Keilberth 53. 
Keilberth 52. 
Furtwangler 50 XR 
Furtwangler 53. 
Krauss 53 XR 
Bohm 67 
Knappertsbusch 56. 
Barenboim 91 
Kempe 61. 
Goodall 75 
Sawallisch 89. 
Thielemann 08 
Dream Ring. 
Gotterdammerung 51


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## Woodduck

Ragnar said:


> Hello everyone, I'am new here. Have read just about this entire thread. I have learned alot from all of you, thank you. I have purchased some of the performances based off of your discussions, but still have many many to go. I love the Ring cycle. I think it is the most incredible piece of music i have ever heard. I feel so enriched for it being there and wish i could thank Wagner personally. Besides Tristan and Lohengrin I haven't engulfed myself in the other operas yet, though i have copies of them all. My newest just today is Lohengrin Eugen Jochum 1954 Bayreuth. I just cant escape the need for more Rings though. I know iam missing alot but are there any must haves that i need to hear asap? Here is what i have for the Ring
> Solti studio
> Karajan studio
> Boulez 80
> Boulez 76.
> Keilberth 55.
> Keilberth 53.
> Keilberth 52.
> Furtwangler 50 XR
> Furtwangler 53.
> Krauss 53 XR
> Bohm 67
> Knappertsbusch 56.
> Barenboim 91
> Kempe 61.
> Goodall 75
> Sawallisch 89.
> Thielemann 08
> Dream Ring.
> Gotterdammerung 51


Ragnarok is the original Norse version of the Gotterdammerung, the end of the gods. Profound question: do you love the Ring because you are Ragnar, or are you Ragnar because you love the Ring?


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## Itullian

Ragnar said:


> Hello everyone, I'am new here. Have read just about this entire thread. I have learned alot from all of you, thank you. I have purchased some of the performances based off of your discussions, but still have many many to go. I love the Ring cycle. I think it is the most incredible piece of music i have ever heard. I feel so enriched for it being there and wish i could thank Wagner personally. Besides Tristan and Lohengrin I haven't engulfed myself in the other operas yet, though i have copies of them all. My newest just today is Lohengrin Eugen Jochum 1954 Bayreuth. I just cant escape the need for more Rings though. I know iam missing alot but are there any must haves that i need to hear asap? Here is what i have for the Ring
> Solti studio
> Karajan studio
> Boulez 80
> Boulez 76.
> Keilberth 55.
> Keilberth 53.
> Keilberth 52.
> Furtwangler 50 XR
> Furtwangler 53.
> Krauss 53 XR
> Bohm 67
> Knappertsbusch 56.
> Barenboim 91
> Kempe 61.
> Goodall 75
> Sawallisch 89.
> Thielemann 08
> Dream Ring.
> Gotterdammerung 51


A man after my own heart 

You MUST get Knapprtsbusch '57 on Walhall. 
and '58 too.


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## Ragnar

Woodduck said:


> Ragnarok is the original Norse version of the Gotterdammerung, the end of the gods. Profound question: do you love the Ring because you are Ragnar, or are you Ragnar because you love the Ring?


Id say Ragnar because i love the Ring. My music teacher back in the 80's made me a tape of all the overtures from Wagners operas. He figured i wasn't ready for the whole operas, he was right. I listened to that tape so many times i wore it out. To try and replace some of it i bought Soltis' Ring and was totally blown away. But had it been earlier in my life i dont know how i wouldve reacted to it. I lived with just that Ring till about 2 years ago when i bought another just to see what this Keilberth 55 was all about.I wasnt a believer in multiple recordings of the same piece. Well now i get it. Ive deleved into Tristan. I have Furty, Karajan 52 and Bohm. Lohengrin Kempe, Sawallisch and now Jochum. I believe Im ready for the plundge into the rest, embarrassed i haven't heard any of them. Hollander i have Keilberth 55. Tannhauser Karajan dont know the year. Meistersinger the Kubelik. And Parsifal the Kna 62. Good places to start?


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## Ragnar

Itullian said:


> A man after my own heart
> 
> You MUST get Knapprtsbusch '57 on Walhall.
> and '58 too.


Ive had that Kna 57 in my cart for weeks, just haven't pulled the trigger. I admit i wasnt blown away by the Kna 56, But the Gotterdammerung 51 i was floored.


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## Woodduck

Ragnar said:


> Id say Ragnar because i love the Ring. My music teacher back in the 80's made me a tape of all the overtures from Wagners operas. He figured i wasn't ready for the whole operas, he was right. I listened to that tape so many times i wore it out. To try and replace some of it i bought Soltis' Ring and was totally blown away. But had it been earlier in my life i dont know how i wouldve reacted to it. I lived with just that Ring till about 2 years ago when i bought another just to see what this Keilberth 55 was all about.I wasnt a believer in multiple recordings of the same piece. Well now i get it. Ive deleved into *Tristan. I have Furty, Karajan 52 and Bohm. Lohengrin Kempe, Sawallisch and now Jochum.* I believe Im ready for the plundge into the rest, embarrassed i haven't heard any of them. Hollander i have Keilberth 55. Tannhauser Karajan dont know the year. Meistersinger the Kubelik. And *Parsifal the Kna 62. *Good places to start?


Excellent places to start, and even to end. You already have some of the best recordings. Luckily there are folks here who have huge Wagner collections and can recommend even more. Let me suggest the wonderful old Meistersinger under Kempe, with Frantz, Grummer and Schock.


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## DarkAngel

Ragnar said:


> Ive had that Kna 57 in my cart for weeks, just haven't pulled the trigger. I admit i wasnt blown away by the Kna 56, But the Gotterdammerung 51 i was floored.


Get a couple early 1970s Bayreuth Rings to hear some new voices like Ligendza, Lindholm, young Gywenth Jones etc, operdepot.com when 50% sale is active

















We are very good at spending other people's money, just ask and we do our best, ha ha
buy buy buy


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## Ragnar

Woodduck said:


> Excellent places to start, and even to end. You already have some of the best recordings. Luckily there are folks here who have huge Wagner collections and can recommend even more. Let me suggest the wonderful old Meistersinger under Kempe, with Frantz, Grummer and Schock.


Is that the Meistersinger at Pristine classical? Ive was looking at that earlier. Along with the Krauss Parsifal. Just didnt know which to plundge into, should probably listen to the Kubelik and Kna i have first. Was looking at the 1940 Walkure as well, but couldnt remember what was said about it here.


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## Ragnar

DarkAngel said:


> Get a couple early 1970s Bayreuth Rings to hear some new voices like Ligendza, Lindholm, young Gywenth Jones etc, operdepot.com when 50% sale is active
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are very good at spending other people's money, just ask and we do our best, ha ha
> buy buy buy


Lol. Ive seen that DA. You guys have already gotten me to spend money in the past couple months while i read on the side lines. I think my Ring collection mightve doubled since i started reading here. The 53 Keilberth being some of the best money ive spent. Wasnt a huge fan of Modl till this cycle. Ive gone through it several times now and i definitely a fan of her interpretation now. Any opinions on the two new Rings that are still half off at Opera depot? The 71 Bayreuth had my interest but didnt pull the trigger during recent half off sale. Bought the Pan Classic Keilberth 53 instead


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## DarkAngel

^^^^ Caution when buying live Rings at operadepot that are not from Bayreuth (best sound), sound can be variable be sure and check some samples first......the two above are very good sound

It will not take long for store wide 50% operadepot sale, last year he had halloween sale.........


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## Ragnar

DarkAngel said:


> ^^^^ Caution when buying live Rings at operadepot that are not from Bayreuth (best sound), sound can be variable be sure and check some samples first......the two above are very good sound
> 
> It will not take long for store wide 50% operadepot sale, last year he had halloween sale.........


Thank you for the advice DA. I still feel like i know nothing about Wagners music or what to look for. So this thread has been a Godsend. Then i will hold off and wait on the 71. Awhile back I got the Boulez 76 and loved it more than the commercial recording. Also same with the Tristan Klieber 76 loved it. I did get the Kempe 61 free download during last sale but with the 53 and then the 52 within the same week havent had time to hear it yet. Yes this thread made me buy the 53 and 52 in the same week. Lol


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## Ragnar

[/URL][/IMG]

So im starting this Tannhauser today, having never heard it at all except the overture. First time listen i like to go without the Libretto just the sypnosis to get a feel for the music first, then latter ill listen again with Libretto in hand. Ill report my impressions later.


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## Barbebleu

When Opera Depot has another sale consider the Salzburg Ring recorded during the 1968 to 1970 seasons. Karajan live is much better than his studio version.


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## Ragnar

Barbebleu said:


> When Opera Depot has another sale consider the Salzburg Ring recorded during the 1968 to 1970 seasons. Karajan live is much better than his studio version.


Thanks for the suggestion Barbebleu. I will definitely look at that. I like alot of early von Karajan. His 62 Beethoven symphonies box set was my very first classical records. I begged my parents to buy them for me at a yard sale when i was 10. $15 big bucks in 1981 was alot of money. Extra chores for a month, so worth it. I still have the set. So the Salzburg set on Opera Depot caught my eye, but alot of sets caught my eye at the same time, my head almost exploded with trying to decide. At least i can now ask for suggestions. Any idea if the over all sound is good and consistent? I am definitely saving in anticipation for next big sale. Salzburg and Bayreuth 71 on my radar.


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## Barbebleu

Ragnar said:


> Thanks for the suggestion Barbebleu. I will definitely look at that. I like alot of early von Karajan. His 62 Beethoven symphonies box set was my very first classical records. I begged my parents to buy them for me at a yard sale when i was 10. $15 big bucks in 1981 was alot of money. Extra chores for a month, so worth it. I still have the set. So the Salzburg set on Opera Depot caught my eye, but alot of sets caught my eye at the same time, my head almost exploded with trying to decide. At least i can now ask for suggestions. Any idea if the over all sound is good and consistent? I am definitely saving in anticipation for next big sale. Salzburg and Bayreuth 71 on my radar.


The sound is very good. Not studio quality obviously but very good for an off-air recording.


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## Ragnar

So had my very first listen to Tannhauser. I listened only having read the sypnosis, so i had a general idea what was going on, but not the actual words. I really enjoyed it. Had a different vibe than im used to from the Wagner i have experienced. The music totally drew me in so my next listen to a Tannhauser will be with the Libretto in hand, i look forward to diving into the story now. I thought the singing was very good. Also Karajan and the Vienna orchestra sounded clear and beautiful most of the time. I expect nothing less from HvK. Sound was very good that i believe i could hear every note played and had no trouble knowing what was going on from the mood the music cast. I especially liked how the overture theme kept returning in different forms. Of course not having ever heard this opera before and having nothing to compare against i can only say this was a great performance imho. If anyone have any suggestions for a better performance i would appreciate them. I like to have more then one interpretation of a performance for a different perspective. Now on to Hollander Keilberth 55 XR


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## Ragnar

Did just finally purchase this after much going back and forth. Very excited to hear this. I hope its as great as ive read. Must feed the original addiction as well as build up the rest of my collection. Hope i can hold off till after i experience Hollander for the very first time.


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## Ragnar

So first listen to Der Fliegende Hollander. Just the synopsis beforehand. I really enjoyed this opera. Act 1 was great and dark. Surprised how fast Darland sold his daughter to a dark stranger he met literally 10 minutes before on a stormy shore. Greedy ******* lol. Act 2 took me a bit to get used to, being unlike what im used to with the Ring operas as my main Wagner experience.I got over it quick and found myself enjoying the womens song. Then Astrid sang and i was captured. Act 3 had me as it rushed to its fantastic conclusion. I cant wait to hear this again with the Libretto. The Bayreuth orchestra under Keilberth was fantastic. The Pristine XR mastering was excellent. I guess 1955 was an especially good summer for Keilberth. Ive been looking at a 1942 Krauss with Hotter as the Dutchman. Anyone heard this performance?


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## DarkAngel

Ragnar said:


> So first listen to Der Fliegende Hollander. Just the synopsis beforehand. I really enjoyed this opera. Act 1 was great and dark. Surprised how fast Darland sold his daughter to a dark stranger he met literally 10 minutes before on a stormy shore. Greedy ******* lol. Act 2 took me a bit to get used to, being unlike what im used to with the Ring operas as my main Wagner experience.I got over it quick and found myself enjoying the womens song. Then Astrid sang and i was captured. Act 3 had me as it rushed to its fantastic conclusion. I cant wait to hear this again with the Libretto. The Bayreuth orchestra under Keilberth was fantastic. The Pristine XR mastering was excellent. I guess 1955 was an especially good summer for Keilberth. Ive been looking at a 1942 Krauss with Hotter as the Dutchman. Anyone heard this performance?


The 55 sound quality is great thanks to Decca's top recording team doing a trail run for live stereo Ring same year, for Hotter dutchman go for the 50 Reiner on Naxos, a saturday MET radio broadcast with stacked cast........










There were two great 55 Dutchies from Bayreuth, the other is a mono Knap with even stronger supporting cast (windgassen as erik)


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## Ragnar

DarkAngel said:


> The 55 sound quality is great thanks to Decca's top recording team doing a trail run for live stereo Ring same year, for Hotter dutchman go for the 50 Reiner on Naxos, a saturday MET radio broadcast with stacked cast........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There were two great 55 Dutchies from Bayreuth, the other is a mono Knap with even stronger supporting cast (windgassen as erik)


Thanks DA. Any idea how the ZYX version is soundwise for the Kna 55? Is the Met version the one in the Wagner at the Met box? Ive been looking at that set, but couldnt remember what was said about it here. Would it be better to search those out individually? Sorry for the twenty questions


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## DarkAngel

Ragnar said:


> Thanks DA. Any idea how the ZYX version is soundwise for the Kna 55? Is the Met version the one in the Wagner at the Met box? Ive been looking at that set, but couldnt remember what was said about it here. Would it be better to search those out individually? Sorry for the twenty questions


Yes Wagner at MET boxset does include 50 Reiner Dutchman.....a great boxset but keep in mind many operas in there are from late 1930s and 1940s so sound will not be the best, but they are great performances










Orfeo gets premium pricing with better booklets and packaging, and access to official bayreuth tapes of bavarian radio broadcasting so sound will usually be slightly better than other versions like ZYX........


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## wkasimer

Ragnar said:


> Ive been looking at a 1942 Krauss with Hotter as the Dutchman. Anyone heard this performance?


I know it pretty well. Hotter is in excellent voice, and the rest of the cast is good, with one glaring exception: Viorica Ursuleac, Krauss' wife, is one of the century's worst singers.


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## Ragnar

DarkAngel said:


> Yes Wagner at MET boxset does include 50 Reiner Dutchman.....a great boxset but keep in mind many operas in there are from late 1930s and 1940s so sound will not be the best, but they are great performances
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Orfeo gets premium pricing with better booklets and packaging, and access to official bayreuth tapes of bavarian radio broadcasting so sound will usually be slightly better than other versions like ZYX........





wkasimer said:


> I know it pretty well. Hotter is in excellent voice, and the rest of the cast is good, with one glaring exception: Viorica Ursuleac, Krauss' wife, is one of the century's worst singers.


Thanks guys. I think ill hunt down the Met Hollander and the Kna. Then maybe when i know the opera better ill get the Krauss. Centuries worst singer is something i think shouldnt be encountered when getting to know a work. Is Kna his usual slow probing self?


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## The Conte

DarkAngel said:


> Yes Wagner at MET boxset does include 50 Reiner Dutchman.....a great boxset but keep in mind many operas in there are from late 1930s and 1940s so sound will not be the best, but they are great performances
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Orfeo gets premium pricing with better booklets and packaging, and access to official bayreuth tapes of bavarian radio broadcasting so sound will usually be slightly better than other versions like ZYX........


In general Sony have the best sound for Met recordings and Orfeo for Bayreuth, Salzburg, Vienna and Munich. I was fortunate enough in Berlin to be able to sample tracks from the Myto Bayreuth Tannhaueser and the Orfeo (they are different performances, not just different sources). As you would expect, the Orfeo had slightly clearer sound. There's nothing like being able to compare for yourself.

N.


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## Ragnar

Just finished my first ever listen to Parsifal. Wow. I can't describe what im feeling right now, but somehow i don't think i have to in this group. I feel like ive committed a sin against myself. Ive had these records in my possession for years. Got them from a friend of my Aunt, who had them from new. I never listened to them. Even when i choose to digitize them i only heard snippets while i put in the tracks. I get now why alot of people speak of this recording with such reverence. I need another version now. Any suggestions where i should next go? Only Meistersinger left to experience for all the mature operas.


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## howlingfantods

Ragnar said:


> Just finished my first ever listen to Parsifal. Wow. I can't describe what im feeling right now, but somehow i don't think i have to in this group. I feel like ive committed a sin against myself. Ive had these records in my possession for years. Got them from a friend of my Aunt, who had them from new. I never listened to them. Even when i choose to digitize them i only heard snippets while i put in the tracks. I get now why alot of people speak of this recording with such reverence. I need another version now. Any suggestions where i should next go? Only Meistersinger left to experience for all the mature operas.


The Kubelik is the obvious next choice. Pricey though, still selling for around $40. Otherwise, you might opt for the Barenboim or the Armin Jordan. Or failing those, the Karajan.


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## Woodduck

Ragnar said:


> Just finished my first ever listen to Parsifal. Wow. I can't describe what im feeling right now, but somehow i don't think i have to in this group. I feel like ive committed a sin against myself. Ive had these records in my possession for years. Got them from a friend of my Aunt, who had them from new. I never listened to them. Even when i choose to digitize them i only heard snippets while i put in the tracks. I get now why alot of people speak of this recording with such reverence. *I need another version now. Any suggestions where i should next go? *Only Meistersinger left to experience for all the mature operas.


The interesting thing about _Parsifal_ is that it's hard to find a really bad recording of it. Although there are individual singers or conductorial concepts that will rule out certain recordings for some people, I think the piece tends to instill in its interpreters a special sense of responsibility. As Antonio Pappano said, "it's an incredible privilege for a musician to be anywhere near this work."

I regard the Knappertsbusch recording of 1962 to be the "central" recording of _Parsifal_, for its fine sound as well as for a great conductor and a cast of vocal distinction. All concerned enter totally into the spirit of the score and never put a foot wrong, giving us the sense of the mythical world of Montsalvat as a real place in which real events, not merely a performance of something, unfold and absorb us completely for four hours. The Bayreuth theater casts its own magic spell, and we can experience this in other recordings of the opera made there as well, although the sonics are less good in some otherwise fine monaural recordings made in the 1950s. In those, I strongly recommend hearing any featuring the wonderfully unhinged portrayal of Klingsor by Hermann Uhde, who got beneath straightforward villainy to suggest the character's underlying fear, impotence and brittle hysteria.

Among stereo recordings, I would add to the recommendations of howlingfantods the often criticized Solti for its superb sonics and excellent cast, stronger in my estimation than the very uneven cast on Karajan's sensual recording. Karajan has a few eccentric ideas himself which you may or may not like, but he's put out of court for me by his slightly shaky Parsifal and especially his Kundry, a mediocre soprano who for some reason Karajan had a liking for and who also helps spoil for me his _Flying Dutchman._ Another version that divides opinion is that of Boulez at Bayreuth from 1970. The cast isn't among the finest, but the real issue is Boulez's quick and bright conducting, which I might characterize as anti-Knappertsbusch. You'll either like it or you won't; I don't. I've never been in any hurry to get through this opera.

I'm still waiting to find an inexpensive copy of the Kubelik, but most likely everyone else is too, so eventually I'll just have to break down and go for it.


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## howlingfantods

Woodduck said:


> Karajan has a few eccentric ideas himself which you may or may not like, but he's put out of court for me by his slightly shaky Parsifal and especially his Kundry, a mediocre soprano who for some reason Karajan had a liking for and who also helps spoil for me his _Flying Dutchman._


All true, but it is an interesting and exceptionally beautiful recording. Plus it has the best sounding bells, that's worth something right there


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## Barbebleu

Woodduck said:


> I'm still waiting to find an inexpensive copy of the Kubelik, but most likely everyone else is too.


Not everyone, Woodduck!


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## Granate

What are the differences between these Boulez Rings, in performance, cast and sound?

Ps. I finished watching 81' Siegfried. *I want a Gwyneth Jones ring.*


----------



## wkasimer

> The Bayreuth theater casts its own magic spell, and we can experience this in other recordings of the opera made there as well, although the sonics are less good in some otherwise fine monaural recordings made in the 1950s. In those, I strongly recommend hearing any featuring the wonderfully unhinged portrayal of Klingsor by Hermann Uhde, who got beneath straightforward villainy to suggest the character's underlying fear, impotence and brittle hysteria.


The 1951 performance was my introduction to the opera many years ago (it was the only one I could afford, on the budget Richmond LP label). Still one of my favorites. Not only for Uhde, but for the London's Amfortas, in much better vocal shape than a decade later, and Ludwig Weber's Gurnemanz. And it's a very different Knappertsbusch on the podium, compared to his 1962 self.



> Among stereo recordings, I would add to the recommendations of howlingfantods the often criticized Solti for its superb sonics and excellent cast,


It's one of Solti's best Wagnerian recordings - I just wish that they'd found him a better singer for the role of Parsifal.



> stronger in my estimation than the very uneven cast on Karajan's sensual recording. Karajan has a few eccentric ideas himself which you may or may not like, but he's put out of court for me by his slightly shaky Parsifal and especially his Kundry, a mediocre soprano who for some reason Karajan had a liking for and who also helps spoil for me his Flying Dutchman.


But the Karajan does have the advantages of Jose van Dam's Amfortas, and Kurt Moll's Gurnemanz.



> I'm still waiting to find an inexpensive copy of the Kubelik, but most likely everyone else is too, so eventually I'll just have to break down and go for it.


Just do it.:devil:


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## DarkAngel

Granate said:


> What are the differences between these Boulez Rings, in performance, cast and sound?
> 
> Ps. I finished watching 81' Siegfried. *I want a Gwyneth Jones ring.*


Don't pay the insane oop price for commercial Phillips release, both 76 & 77 sound is very good.....just wait for 50% sale which will be soon 

The casts are slightly different Phillips CD set done a couple years later 1979-80? in conjunction with film for Ring video, main singers are pretty much the same.......perhaps even better though for 1976-77 operadepot


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## wkasimer

DarkAngel said:


> Don't pay the insane oop price for commercial Phillips release, both 76 & 77 sound is very good.....just wait for 50% sale which will be soon


I thought the Philips was later, like 1980. The earlier ones are better.


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## Granate

DarkAngel said:


> Don't pay the insane oop price for commercial Phillips release, it is the same 76 Bayreuth Ring which you can get at operadepot much cheaper with similar sound, both 76 & 77 sound is very good.....just wait for 50% sale which will be soon


I don't know if you actually own CDs issued by Operadepot or mp3 downloads in 246kbps as I do with some free gifts. Do the CDs have FLAC quality? If they don't, I am happy with downloading and waiting for Orfeo 65 years to issue the Original Tapes of the 70s rings once they are done with the 50s and 60s.

About the Boulez Operadepot rings, my main concern is the casting in Siegmund (Hoffmann/Schunk) and the Siegfrieds (Kollo/Thomas/Jung). I don't know about Hannelore Bode, but Altmeyer blew my mind as Sieglinde. I have all my confidence in Jones' Brünnhilde, Salminen's Hunding and McIntyre's correct Wotan.

But apart from the excitement, I don't know if I want to spend another $25 in a Ring, but I want it to challenge the other Stereo Rings this November. I have a better taste for Jones than Nilsson as a Wagnerian soprano.

Will I have the chance to hear the booings and riots in any of the Boulez rings?


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## DarkAngel

wkasimer said:


> I thought the Philips was later, like 1980. The earlier ones are better.


you guys are too fast, see my updated post above

Granate see updated post, Philips CD set not the same as Operadepot 1976-77



> The casts are slightly different Phillips CD set done a couple years later 1979-80? in conjunction with film for Ring video, main singers are pretty much the same.......perhaps even better though for 1976-77 operadepot


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## Ragnar

Granate said:


> What are the differences between these Boulez Rings, in performance, cast and sound?
> 
> Ps. I finished watching 81' Siegfried. *I want a Gwyneth Jones ring.*


I have the 76 from Opera Depot and the Philips commercial release. I honestly haven't bothered with the Philips since i got the 76 from Opera Depot. I have never heard the 77 but understand its good as well. Also yes you can hear the booing and a horn on the 76.


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## Granate

Haloween sale began!

50% off everything in Operadepot until November 1st.

My picks
























About the Karajan Lohengrin, you'll later know why. I'm curious about the live Salzburg Ring, but money doesn't reach for two rings. The challenge already has the studio recording.


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## Ragnar

Karajan Salzburg Ring and maybe Stein 71 Ring for me. I have that 76 Boulez. I prefer it over the official philips release


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## Ragnar

Whats got me not buying everything ive wanted is I splurged today on Orfeo Hollander Kna 55 and Kubelik Parsifal. No regrets though


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## Ragnar

Grabbed the Stein Ring 71 and Boulez Parsifal 68. Sure ill be going back before sale ends for Karajan Salzburg


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## Barbebleu

Granate said:


> Haloween sale began!
> 
> 50% off everything in Operadepot until November 1st.
> 
> My picks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> About the Karajan Lohengrin, you'll later know why. I'm curious about the live Salzburg Ring, but money doesn't reach for two rings. The challenge already has the studio recording.


I think, and I'm happy to be proven wrong, this is the only Tannhäuser conducted by Karajan on disc. He didn't release a studio version.


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## Granate

And with these ones I think I complete the Bayreuth Festival 1976. 13€ more 
Anyway, I should use them for the Wagner Stereo challenge.



















Barbebleu said:


> I think, and I'm happy to be proven wrong, this is the only Tannhäuser conducted by Karajan on disc. He didn't release a studio version.












I think his reason not to do it right then was Hans Beirer, judging from the excerpts in Venusberg
(It has bacchanale).


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## Ragnar

This is the version i have of that Tannhauser. I enjoyed it, but its the only version ive ever heard so i can't honestly say how it measures up. That Kleiber 76 Tristan is excellent imo.


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## Ragnar

I want a Parsifal with Martha Modl as Kundry. Doesn't matter if its CD or download. Can anyone give me a suggestion on the best overall performance to get?


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## Granate

Ragnar said:


> This is the version i have of that Tannhauser. I enjoyed it, but its the only version ive ever heard so i can't honestly say how it measures up. That Kleiber 76 Tristan is excellent imo.


I don't know how did you get this version by DG. For stereo Tannhäusers, the Barenboim 2001 casting is unbeatable.

And looking up in the Bayreuth Database, it seems like there was a lone Meistersinger in the inaugural night of the 1976 season. Maybe Operadepot has no copy of it yet.


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## wkasimer

Ragnar said:


> I want a Parsifal with Martha Modl as Kundry. Doesn't matter if its CD or download. Can anyone give me a suggestion on the best overall performance to get?


The 1951 Bayreuth performance is probably the best choice, as it was recorded by Decca's engineers, and was relatively early in the soprano portion of Modl's career. The rest of the cast is excellent, too. It's available in several incarnations; I think that the Naxos sounds the best:


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## Ragnar

Granate said:


> I don't know how did you get this version by DG. For stereo Tannhäusers, the Barenboim 2001 casting is unbeatable.
> 
> And looking up in the Bayreuth Database, it seems like there was a lone Meistersinger in the inaugural night of the 1976 season. Maybe Operadepot has no copy of it yet.


It was recommended to me as one to hunt down a couple years ago by a member in a Wagner group on Facebook. I guess its been OOP for a long time. I found it on Amazon in 2015, but didnt listen till last week. Its taken me awhile to go through all his works, the Ring was my main passion. There are 8 copies on Amazon US right now from $19 to $177.


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## Ragnar

wkasimer said:


> The 1951 Bayreuth performance is probably the best choice, as it was recorded by Decca's engineers, and was relatively early in the soprano portion of Modl's career. The rest of the cast is excellent, too. It's available in several incarnations; I think that the Naxos sounds the best:
> 
> View attachment 98602


Thank you for your recommendation. I saw this on Amazon pretty cheap, ill be grabbing it today. So with the 62 Kna, the Kubelik on its way, the 68 Boulez and this i should be all set on Parsifal for awhile.

I watched Parsifal the movie with Armin Jordan soundtrack. I enjoyed it. It was unusual but good imo. Im just alittle confused. Does anyone know why Parsifal transforms into a girl with a mans voice after Kundry attempted seduction? I didnt get this from the Kna. But being new to Parsifal i really know nothing


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## 5mai

*1976 Bayreuth Meistersinger*



Granate said:


> I don't know how did you get this version by DG. For stereo Tannhäusers, the Barenboim 2001 casting is unbeatable.
> 
> And looking up in the Bayreuth Database, it seems like there was a lone Meistersinger in the inaugural night of the 1976 season. Maybe Operadepot has no copy of it yet.


I am sure that the 1976 Festival issue of 'Opera' states that, to celebrate the Centenary, the Act III Festweise scene only was performed on opening night. Was it recorded? It would be surprising if it was not broadcast.


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## Granate

Welcome to Talk Classical 5mai. I hope this is not the only time you share with us your wisdom about Opera and remaining Classical Music.

If it is only Act III, then I'm not interested unfortunately. Thank you very much.


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## Barbebleu

Good to see some new blood on this thread. I look forward to future posts.


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## Granate

*Operadepot Custom Covers #1*


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## Granate

*Operadepot Custom Covers #2*










































As the covers of the recordings I just bought were too little and quite ugly, I made a bunch of big custom covers for my digital files, resembling more to the Philips LP boxes. I know this should go in the Original Jackets thread I made in Recordings, but as they are all Wagner, they would fit better here.

What do you think?


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## davidglasgow

Granate said:


> As the covers of the recordings I just bought were too little and quite ugly, I made a bunch of big custom covers for my digital files, resembling more to the Philips LP boxes. I know this should go in the Original Jackets thread I made in Recordings, but as they are all Wagner, they would fit better here.
> 
> What do you think?


These look great  The casting for Gotterdammerung in particular is impressive: might be work a listen


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## Azol

These are awesome-looking. Offer these to Opera Depot! If I were Opera Depot owner, I would have given you the corresponding recordings for free.


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## Granate

Azol said:


> These are awesome-looking. Offer these to Opera Depot! If I were Opera Depot owner, I would have given you the corresponding recordings for free.


Then I shall do that with the Karajan Salzburg Ring


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## howlingfantods

Maybe some of the more popular Pristine Classical ones too? Those are hideous.


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## davidglasgow

howlingfantods said:


> Maybe some of the more popular Pristine Classical ones too? Those are hideous.


I'm not too convinced this cover with Furtwangler would make you run out and buy this recording :lol:
https://www.pristineclassical.com/products/paco089


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## Granate

howlingfantods said:


> Maybe some of the more popular Pristine Classical ones too? Those are hideous.


In my opinion, Pristine Classical could need a full corporate image shift, starting from the now famous logo and at last in the unreadable Krauss Wagner 53 recordings. But, actually they don't really need it.

Operadepot is improving little by little and focuses on opera and not all kinds of Classical Music. I really like their new logo but the brand new covers, although really well composed, offer little attractiveness with overphotoshoped pictures of composers like they were bleached. The XX has better taste.








Ugh..

*And also, not offering high-quality covers (1400px square) for a digital library is criminal.*










But the labour of designing for one of these labels is tough. Both offer digital downloads but with Operadepot you can print your little book with a tracklist. The CDs come in sleeves and if you want you can make a confection in jewelcases you buy, but then you would need to be provided with the back covers, and as a plus, a CD sticker.

I think a design project would be easier for Operadepot because of the genre and the variations depending on the operas and excerpt cds. But with Pristine Huge catalogue one has to do multiple plans depending on the genre. I think people would buy Pristine no matter how ugly it is because Rose's brand is engineering. Operadepot's brand can be... a big and careful opera catalogue with nice sound and affordable prices. They just need a push in image, and that's why they have been improving the website and the covers.


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## Granate

davidglasgow said:


> I'm not too convinced this cover with Furtwangler would make you run out and buy this recording
> https://www.pristineclassical.com/products/paco089


Didn't you ever see these covers I put in Original Jackets a long time ago?


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## Granate

davidglasgow said:


> I'm not too convinced this cover with Furtwangler would make you run out and buy this recording :lol:
> https://www.pristineclassical.com/products/paco089


More than the cover, it could be the price.........
Not encouraging to buy it like ZYX, but one has to pay Axel Rose. Decisions, decisions...


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## howlingfantods

Granate said:


> Didn't you ever see these covers I put in Original Jackets a long time ago?


Wow those look great! What thread is this?

I did something similar for my own library but yours are much much better.


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## davidglasgow

Granate said:


> Didn't you ever see these covers I put in Original Jackets a long time ago?]


I love well-designed covers and artwork - If we are sticking mainly to Wagner, the Decca designs such as this one for Kirsten Flagstad's Walkure Act One are beautiful
https://www.discogs.com/Kirsten-Fla...rmonic-Orchestra-Die-Walküre-/release/8441430

I remember reading an anecdote about Walter Legge of EMI explaining that his involvement extended to critiquing the design of Elisabeth Schwarzkopf's album covers. He wanted to check they were vibrant and legible from a few feet away so they would look great in shop windows. I imagine these practicalities can make all the difference in a record career.


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## Granate

howlingfantods said:


> Wow those look great! What thread is this?
> 
> I did something similar for my own library but yours are much much better.



*My works on restoring Original Jackets*


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## Granate

davidglasgow said:


> I remember reading an anecdote about Walter Legge of EMI explaining that his involvement extended to critiquing the design of Elisabeth Schwarzkopf's album covers. He wanted to check they were vibrant and legible from a few feet away so they would look great in shop windows. I imagine these practicalities can make all the difference in a record career.












































Pretty face, nice photo, minimal design, boom.


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## davidglasgow

Granate said:


> *My works on restoring Original Jackets*


That's beautiful work - thank you very much for sharing


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## Barbebleu

Granate said:


> Didn't you ever see these covers I put in Original Jackets a long time ago?


Your covers are excellent. Would you object to me using them for my downloads?


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## Granate

Barbebleu said:


> Your covers are excellent. Would you object to me using them for my downloads?


Not at all. But I could send you a PM with the full sizes (postimage crops a bit).


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## Barbebleu

That would be extremely kind of you Granate.:tiphat:


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## Granate

*Link for Furtwängler 1953 Ring covers*


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## Barbebleu

I've just finished listening to Parsifal, Bayreuth, 23rd August 1957. It's a rather nice version conducted of course by Knappertsbusch. Josef Greindl is excellent as Gurnemanz as is Martha Mödl as Kundry. Her voice hasn't quite gone yet and she is pretty good in Act 2. Toni Blankenheim is a fine Klingsor. George London is in great voice as Amfortas. My only problem is with the title rôle. Ramon Vinay is a wonderful singer and is in terrific voice here but, and this is just my feeling, he is too mature for the Act 1 and Act 2 Parsifal. He has a Kaufmannesque baritonal quality to his voice that just makes him sound too old for the callow youth that Parsifal is in the first two acts. However in Act 3 he is superb and here he is worth the price of admission alone. Kna conducts in his usual well paced manner and I believe someone recently was looking for a Parsifal that had Mödl in good voice. Look no further. All in all this is worth having if not as peerless as the '62 Kna.

Addendum. I think I was damning with faint praise when I said rather nice. It's actually better than that. Light years ahead of the versions that have come out in recent years.


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## Granate

Just in case, new and last purchase from Operadepot. I hope I didn't waste my money and I could have tried the 72 Tristan und Isolde too. I settle and have faith in the 1974 Meistersinger by Karajan for my Wagner Stereo challenge.


















Now that Barbebleu seems eager to move on from the covers topic. *What do you think about Karajan's Salzburg Lohengrin in 1976?* I consider it almost the best in stereo and it's on sale at you-know-where.

When will Operadepot publish the Parsifal and Holländer from the 80s Salzburg?


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## Ragnar

Barbebleu said:


> I've just finished listening to Parsifal, Bayreuth, 23rd August 1957. It's a rather nice version conducted of course by Knappertsbusch. Josef Greindl is excellent as Gurnemanz as is Martha Mödl as Kundry. Her voice hasn't quite gone yet and she is pretty good in Act 2. Toni Blankenheim is a fine Klingsor. George London is in great voice as Amfortas. My only problem is with the title rôle. Ramon Vinay is a wonderful singer and is in terrific voice here but, and this is just my feeling, he is too mature for the Act 1 and Act 2 Parsifal. He has a Kaufmannesque baritonal quality to his voice that just makes him sound too old for the callow youth that Parsifal is in the first two acts. However in Act 3 he is superb and here he is worth the price of admission alone. Kna conducts in his usual well paced manner and I believe someone recently was looking for a Parsifal that had Mödl in good voice. Look no further. All in all this is worth having if not as peerless as the '62 Kna.
> 
> Addendum. I think I was damning with faint praise when I said rather nice. It's actually better than that. Light years ahead of the versions that have come out in recent years.


I was the one looking for the Modl. I ordered the 1951 from Naxos yesterday. Though if this is really good and on sale from Opera Depot i might grab it. Ive learned to trust the recommendations ive seen here. Not every thing has been great to me but never has anything been bad


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## gardibolt

Itullian said:


> Does anyone know why the Krauss Act 1 was substituted in the first place?


I don't believe so. I asked the Bavarian Radio archivist that when I was talking to him about the issue (where he verified that it is indeed the Krauss Act I); he said the Keilberth Act I is in fine condition so it wasn't a problem of the tape being damaged or uncopyable by the anonymous bootlegger who copied it. I'd hazard a guess that either the Keilberth Act I was misplaced when he was doing his copying so he used Krauss, or he accidentally grabbed the Krauss Act I instead of the Keilberth Act I without noticing until too late. I should have asked whether each act was on a separate tape, but given their lengths I have to assume that to be the case.


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## Granate

Ragnar said:


> I was the one looking for the Modl. I ordered the 1951 from Naxos yesterday. Though if this is really good and on sale from Opera Depot i might grab it. Ive learned to trust the recommendations ive seen here. Not every thing has been great to me but never has anything been bad


I also own that Edition. The Decca sound was so good that, on speakers, my father couldn't tell that the Overture was a mono recording.
My opinion on Mödl is another story...


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## gardibolt

I think the Boulez 77 Ring is even better than the 76---it's one of my top 5 Rings plus there's no booing any more. If you can fit one more into your Opera Depot shopping cart, you might give that one some consideration.


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## Granate

gardibolt said:


> I think the Boulez 77 Ring is even better than the 76---it's one of my top 5 Rings plus there's no booing any more. If you can fit one more into your Opera Depot shopping cart, you might give that one some consideration.


I never got an answer from DA or you about why did you choose '77 over '76 Bayreuth. I generally find the 76 season to be really interesting in performances (Century Ring + Tristan Und Isolde with Wenkoff and Ligendza + Parsifal with Peter Hofmann). But of course, I have not listened to them yet. The sound excerpts look gorgeous.

And if that ring was such an event, I really want to hear that booing!  Wasn't it historical? Like the name of this thread?

And now I ask. Have you listened to both rings and found 77 to be better in performances? I asked this a few pages ago prior to the sale and found no answer from the ones that were hailing Bayreuth 77. So I just listened to our new friend Ragnar, the one who actually bothered to answer.

I'm sorry if this sounds too harsh. I'm through my fourth Tristan und Isolde in a row and Waltraud Meier can wake up anybody.


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## Johnmusic

A great voice and singer/artist.

French dramatic soprano Germaine Lubin (1890-1979) in . 
Elisabeth's greeting to the Hall of Song, "Dich, teure Halle" (sung in French), from Act 2 of Wagner's Tannhäuser, recorded for Odéon in 1929.





-----------------------------------------
Germaine Lubin (le crépuscule des dieux)Immolation Brünnilde (1929)


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## Ragnar

I could only comment on the philips and the 76. I love the 76. Though i may just pick up the 77 if its that much better, so id be interested in opions from someone whos heard them both as well. I just got the 71 Stein which was recommended from 50% off sale. Halfway through cycle and so happy i listened. Great sound and really good performances. I recommend the 71 now too


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## Barbebleu

Sorry Granate. It's been a while since I listened to either the '76 or '77 Rings. I shall revisit them soon to refresh my memory and I'll give you my opinion. The '76 Salzburg Lohengrin is very good, well worth buying.


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## wkasimer

Ragnar said:


> I could only comment on the philips and the 76. I love the 76. Though i may just pick up the 77 if its that much better, so id be interested in opions from someone whos heard them both as well.


I've heard both, without doing a formal comparison. But I prefer 1976, mostly because of a couple of cast changes - Siegmund and the Gotterdammerung Siegfried.


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## gardibolt

Barbebleu said:


> Sorry Granate. It's been a while since I listened to either the '76 or '77 Rings. I shall revisit them soon to refresh my memory and I'll give you my opinion. The '76 Salzburg Lohengrin is very good, well worth buying.


I'm kind of in the same boat; I know I preferred the 77 to the 76, but I'm hesitant to say why since my memory is not the best and I may entirely bungle it unless I listen to them both again. Of course, that's a good excuse to listen to them.


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## DarkAngel

Ragnar said:


> I could only comment on the philips and the 76. I love the 76. Though i may just pick up the 77 if its that much better, so id be interested in opions from someone whos heard them both as well. I just got the 71 Stein which was recommended from 50% off sale. Halfway through cycle and so happy i listened. Great sound and really good performances. I recommend the 71 now too


The great thing about operadepot (besides 50% sale) is that those great bayreuth rings (71,73,76,77, Karajan Salzburg) cannot easily be found anywhere else, and they are very fine Rings showcasing singers that are not widely represented on individual CD performances......buy buy buy

As to 76 vs 77 Ring, the casts are very nearly the same with same conductor Boulez and sound quality on both very good.......really a coin flip but I guess if I had only one I take 76


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## Barbebleu

Incidentally the Opera Depot '76 Bayreuth Rheingold is from the opening night on 24th July and the Walküre is from the following night, 25th July. The reason I know this is because the 24th is the only night that Eva Randova and Ortrun Wenkel sang on the same night and I know it's the 25th because that's the only performance that Matti Salminen sang Hunding!

I'm therefore going to go out on a limb here and suggest that the Siegfried is the 27th and Götterdämmerung is from the 29th. Ergo, it's the first cycle. I'm listening to Rheingold at the moment and it is as good as I remembered it was. Great sound and it has that immediacy and frisson that live performances tend to have.


Addendum. I can confirm the Siegfried date because that's the only night Hanna Schwarz sang Erda but the Götterdämmerung could conceivably be one of three but I'm willing to bet it's the 29th.


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## Ragnar

I want to thank those members that recommended the 1971 Stein Ring to me. I had been looking at it, but probably never would've bought it. Except for Gwyneth Jones and Theo Adam I had never heard of anyone else in the cast. Stein I'd heard of but never really heard. I cherish a few cycles as my essentials and I constantly replay them, other cycles I've listened to once and never felt the need to reach for it again, but very few Rings have had me this over the moon. I'am on my second run through the cycle since Thursday. I very rarely start a cycle over as soon as I've finished it. Is this the best sung or best orchestra ever? No, though both are very good. Its that everyone fits like a puzzle piece perfectly into the performance for me. Catarina Ligendza is stella. Gwyneth Jones, Jean Cox and Helge Brilioth are all great. Theo Adam I'am finding I really like his younger take on Wotan. He wont supplant Hotter or Franz as my top two though, but that's fine, like the rest he fits in the puzzle for this cycle perfectly. I've heard some slow performances by better regarded conductors that leave me alittle bored after awhile. Or fast conductors that leave me behind. Stein isn't slow or fast he just conducts great and moves the whole piece forward at a nice pace, speeding up and slowing down where necessary, so I'm not aware how much time has passed. It shows that he learned under Krauss and Karajan among others. I have felt drawn into this performance. The Bayreuth Orchestra sounds wonderful, full and clear. Also it doesnt hurt that the sound is out of this world. I've only heard the mp3 also, my cd's were shipped yesterday and I can't wait to hear if they're even better. Though keep in mind that this is just my opinion. Someone else may hear it and think its crap. I always tell people it would be a pretty boring world if we all liked the exact same things. I just know that this cycle has already earned a place in my essentials group.


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## DarkAngel

^^^ Ragnar we are as one mind on this, 71 is probably my fav Ring of the 1970s if could have only one, showcases new generation of bayreuth singers rising to fame replacing the retiring 1960s group (just as they replaced the iconic 50s casts)


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## Ragnar

DarkAngel said:


> ^^^ Ragnar we are as one mind on this, 71 is probably my fav Ring of the 1970s if could have only one, showcases new generation of bayreuth singers rising to fame replacing the retiring 1960s group (just as they replaced the iconic 50s casts)


I think you were the first to recommend the 71 to me DA. Thank you.I like how the Lietmotifs blend in as part of everything and not so in your face as some conductors do.Have you heard the 70? Im interested in how Lindholm and Stewart sound under Stein. Also i was surprised to see Opera Depot has it in Flac. I know i want to grab another cycle while sale is still on. Maybe the 70 or Karajan Salzburg.


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## DarkAngel

Ragnar said:


> I think you were the first to recommend the 71 to me DA. Thank you.I like how the Lietmotifs blend in as part of everything and not so in your face as some conductors do.Have you heard the 70? Im interested in how Lindholm and Stewart sound under Stein. Also i was surprised to see Opera Depot has it in Flac. I know i want to grab another cycle while sale is still on. Maybe the 70 or Karajan Salzburg.


My "trick" during operadepot sales if I don't want entire Ring set is to buy Walkure & Gotterdammerung only, so I have complete 71 Ring but only W & G from 70.....you do want to hear Lindholm as brunnhilde, some rings feature 2 different singers as brunnhilde (I think one 70s ring uses 3 different brunnhildes!)


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## Granate

Now that we talk about a Ring with Catarina Ligendza as Brünnhilde, I'll bring out the Tristan und Isolde I'm finishing.










*Wagner*
TRISTAN UND ISOLDE WWV 90 Live recording
Spas Wenkoff
Catarina Ligendza
Yvonne Minton
Donald McIntyre
Karl Ridderbusch
Herbert Steinbach
Heinz Zednik

*Chor und Orchester der Bayreuther Festspiele
Carlos Kleiber
Operadepot (1976/2014 Issue Edition)*

*Sound issues*
CD2 (full Act II) Source tape has less volume and detail - Italian comments in the applause

I bring this up because it's not going to be included in my Wagner Challenge winners . I was surprised because as part of the 76 Bayreuth season, It had an average of 5 stars with 19 reviews in Operadepot. I didn't think twice. And now I'm underwhelmed. 
Carlos Kleiber is the most interesting featuring in this recording. His conducting improves the studio DG recording, but not the cast. Now that I have listened to Act I and II I cannot show much appreciation for Catarina Ligendza's voice in Isolde (in 1976). It's a middle-of-the-road style that never achieves Behrens delicacy, Meier's intensity or Nilsson's sweetness. Minton, a bland Ridderbusch and her are my drawbacks. The recording is generally strong in the male cast. Wenkoff does not show a lot in Acts I and II (maybe because it's live), but he delivers it all in Act III with a lyrical voice worthy of his now famous Tannhäuser. I can confirm that Act III is a big improvement for the recording, regarding both Wenkoff and Ligendza's Liebestod.

It's a good recording for a collection, but I was expecting a surprise... It didn't happen.


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## Granate

Barbebleu said:


> Addendum. I can confirm the Siegfried date because that's the only night Hanna Schwarz sang Erda but the Götterdämmerung could conceivably be one of three but I'm willing to bet it's the 29th.


I've listened to the last track of Götterdämmerung 76 to hear how the booing was and has some applause and some ill-throated booing with many, many whistles. It lasts for 2 minutes until it's cut while they are cheering presumably the cast.
I think it's July the 29th.


----------



## DarkAngel

DarkAngel said:


> My "trick" during operadepot sales if I don't want entire Ring set is to buy Walkure & Gotterdammerung only, so I have complete 71 Ring but only W & G from 70.....you do want to hear Lindholm as brunnhilde, some rings feature 2 different singers as brunnhilde (*I think one 70s ring uses 3 different brunnhildes!*)


Found it, 73 Stein Bayreuth from operadepot description:



> It is not uncommon for two sopranos to split duties as Brünnhilde in the _Ring_, but I have never come across a complete cycle inhabited by three different Brünnhildes. It had originally been intended for Berit Lindholm to sing the _Walküre_ and _Siegfried_ Brünnhildes and Catarina Ligendza to sing the _Götterdämmerung_ Brünnhilde, but Lindholm fell ill before the performance of _Siegfried_ giving Ursula Schröder-Feinen, who was still relatively unknown at the time, the opportunity to show off her Wagnerian chops. And some mighty fine chops they are, I might add. For my part Schröder-Feinen nearly steels the entire Cycle, tackling the shortest, but arguably most difficult, role in the _Ring_ with seeming ease. Her top is gleaming with seemingly endless reserves and she is able to scale back her voice for the more intimate moments. That is not to short-change the achievements of her colleagues. Lindholm struggles a little at first with the _Walkür_e Brünnhilde but quickly settles into things revealing an alluring, auburn color to her voice, which brought to my mind a young Astrid Varnay. Catarina Ligendza returns for her third summer as Brünnhilde at Bayreuth and seems more confidant and secure than ever. It is unclear to me how well her voice may have cut through the orchestra, but she manages the treacherous role with impressive security and a youthful quality that is all too rare in Wagner.


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## Barbebleu

Granate said:


> I've listened to the last track of Götterdämmerung 76 to hear how the booing was and has some applause and some ill-throated booing with many, many whistles. It lasts for 2 minutes until it's cut while they are cheering presumably the cast.
> I think it's July the 29th.


I concur with your opinion Granate. I think the booing was at its most vociferous during the first cycle. I think this is one of the great Ring cycles and I wouldn't be without it.


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## Ragnar

So I think I'am going to go with the Karajan Salzburg for my second Ring cycle from the Opera Depot sale. I have been interested in it for awhile and it has been in and out of my basket many many times for months. Plus along with the 71 Stein it has also been recommended to me quit a bit. As much as I wish to hear Lindholm in the 70 Stein, I think I will live with my already beloved 71 Stein for awhile before getting another Stein Ring. At least till the next 50% off sale


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## Granate

Ragnar said:


> So I think I'am going to go with the Karajan Salzburg for my second Ring cycle from the Opera Depot sale. I have been interested in it for awhile and it has been in and out of my basket many many times for months. Plus along with the 71 Stein it has also been recommended to me quit a bit. As much as I wish to hear Lindholm in the 70 Stein, I think I will live with my already beloved 71 Stein for awhile before getting another Stein Ring. At least till the next 50% off sale


Please, do a compared listen with the Studio cycle when you can.


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## Ragnar

Granate said:


> Please, do a compared listen with the Studio cycle when you can.


That sounds like a wonderful idea. I look forward to doing it. Been awhile since I heard the studio version. Now to find the time


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## Granate

Enjoy!


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## Ragnar

I wish they had filmed all the operas back then.


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## Granate

Ragnar said:


> I wish they had filmed all the operas back then.


What about this project? Not the same singers.... but....

*Salzburg Easter Festival 2017: Die Walküre*



> In 1967 the first Salzburg Easter Festival presented a now legendary production of Richard Wagner's "Ring des Nibelungen" tetralogy, led by Herbert von Karajan. The 50th anniversary of the festival in 2017 saw a new production of "Die Walküre" by famous Bulgarian director Vera Nemirova which is set in a unique "re-creation" of this very first Salzburg Easter Festival opera production in the set by Günther Schneider-Siemssen. Christian Thielemann conducts his Sächsische Staatskapelle Dresden and an illustrous cast including Anja Harteros, Anja Kampe, Vitalij Kowaljow and Peter Seiffert. The critics are full of praise for this "musically ravishing Walküre" (Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung) and ist "excellent ensemble of soloists". As Sieglinde, Anja Harteros is "enchanting and elegant", Peter Seiffert "amazingly presents a steady and expressive Siegmund", Christa Mayer "shows off as irresistible, throroughbred Fricka" and Anja Kampe is celebrated as "outstanding Brünnhilde" (Süddeutsche Zeitung).
> 
> *Additional Info*
> 
> No: A04050067
> Composer: Richard Wagner
> Conductor: Christian Thielemann
> Orchestra: Sächsische Staatskapelle Dresden
> Artists: Anja Kampe, Vitalij Kowaljow, Anja Harteros, Peter Seiffert, Georg Zeppenfeld
> Production year: 2017
> Run time: 03:55:00
> Director: Stage Director: Vera Nemirova
> Producers: A production of UNITEL in co-production with ORF/ 3Sat and NHK in cooperation with Salzburg Easter Festival
> Format: 4K






































Pugg said:


> Wagner: Die Walküre
> Peter Seiffert, Georg Zeppenfeld, Vitalij Kowaljow, Anja Harteros, Anja Kampe, Christa Mayer
> Staatskapelle Dresden, Christian Thielemann
> out *November 10th*


----------



## howlingfantods

Granate said:


> I bring this up because it's not going to be included in my Wagner Challenge winners . I was surprised because as part of the 76 Bayreuth season, It had an average of 5 stars with 19 reviews in Operadepot. I didn't think twice. And now I'm underwhelmed.
> Carlos Kleiber is the most interesting featuring in this recording. His conducting improves the studio DG recording, but not the cast. Now that I have listened to Act I and II I cannot show much appreciation for Catarina Ligendza's voice in Isolde (in 1976). It's a middle-of-the-road style that never achieves Behrens delicacy, Meier's intensity or Nilsson's sweetness. Minton, a bland Ridderbusch and her are my drawbacks. The recording is generally strong in the male cast. Wenkoff does not show a lot in Acts I and II (maybe because it's live), but he delivers it all in Act III with a lyrical voice worthy of his now famous Tannhäuser. I can confirm that Act III is a big improvement for the recording, regarding both Wenkoff and Ligendza's Liebestod.
> 
> It's a good recording for a collection, but I was expecting a surprise... It didn't happen.


This is an expectations thing. I like this recording since it's more natural and flows more than Kleiber's studio one, and I prefer Wenkoff to Kollo. Ligendza's performance isn't as lovely as Margaret Price's but she also sounds more natural in the role than Price. The sound is substantially better than the other live Kleiber Tristans from Bayreuth or La Scala I have.

So this is a way to get Kleiber's version of Tristan in good live sound, with a pair of lovers that I like in the aggregate a little more than I do the studio pair. All that adds up to a decent recording that I'm glad to own, but certainly nothing that challenges my favorite recordings of this piece with performers like Flagstad, Nilsson, Windgassen, Melchior, or Vickers.


----------



## Itullian

Opinions?


----------



## wkasimer

Itullian said:


> Opinions?


Better than you'd expect. Geisler is only so-so, but Neidlinger is a remarkably good Sachs, which I'd never have anticipated. The rest of the cast is good to excellent.


----------



## Granate

This is not urgent, but is it safe (in terms of sound) to buy the highly praised Kubelík Meistersinger at Operadepot on CD?


----------



## wkasimer

Granate said:


> This is not urgent, but is it safe (in terms of sound) to buy the highly praised Kubelík Meistersinger at Operadepot on CD?


I guess that it's "safe", but I question the ethics of Operadepot offering this recording, since it must have been sourced from an existing CD release, on Myto, Calig, or Arts Archives.


----------



## Barbebleu

I'm listening to a very nice recording of Rheingold at the moment. It's a Met recording from 1957 with Uhde as Wotan, Thebom as Fricka, and Vinay as Loge conducted by Fritz Stiedry. Alberich is sung by Lawrence Davidson who I was not familiar with but he is actually not bad. I imagine he must have been one of the Met's house artists. It's a good clear recording for the time and I've heard worse Rheingolds. Uhde is maybe a bit light voiced for Wotan but he sings it well. I'm about halfway through and so far it is highly enjoyable.

Addendum 

That's me finished then. Very nice Rheingold. I felt that Stiedry kind of rushed things a bit but the timings suggest otherwise! Ah well, he is obviously one of those conductors who always have that driving feel, a bit like Solti in many respects, but still with a good flow to the overall structure. Interesting bit of casting for Froh, James McCracken no less. Worth a listen if anyone's interested.


----------



## Barbebleu

wkasimer said:


> I guess that it's "safe", but I question the ethics of Operadepot offering this recording, since it must have been sourced from an existing CD release, on Myto, Calig, or Arts Archives.


It was a radio broadcast so it may have been sourced from on off-air recording!


----------



## Granate

Barbebleu said:


> I'm listening to a very nice recording of Rheingold at the moment. It's a Met recording from 1957 with Uhde as Wotan, Thebom as Fricka, and Vinay as Loge conducted by Fritz Stiedry. Alberich is sung by Lawrence Davidson who I was not familiar with but he is actually not bad. I imagine he must have been one of the Met's house artists. It's a good clear recording for the time and I've heard worse Rheingolds. Uhde is maybe a bit light voiced for Wotan but he sings it well. I'm about halfway through and so far it is highly enjoyable.


I'm listening to my first Rheingold from the challenge: Simone Young


----------



## Barbebleu

Granate said:


> I'm listening to my first Rheingold from the challenge: Simone Young


Interesting choice. Not sure I would have chosen it.


----------



## Granate

Barbebleu said:


> Interesting choice. Not sure I would have chosen it.











You are not missing anything (C-). Because I'm listening to 9 rings in Stereo, it's always my first opera.

List:
01. Young HPO
02. Thielemann BFO
03. Janowski SKD
04. Karajan BPO
05. Barenboim BFO
06. Böhm BFO
07. Boulez BFO 76
08. Keilberth BFO 55 (YouTube source)
09. Solti WPO


----------



## Itullian

Just received it.

I really like the simple but nice 
packaging of the Naxos Great Opera
Recordings.


----------



## Ragnar

Itullian said:


> Just received it.
> 
> I really like the simple but nice
> packaging of the Naxos Great Opera
> Recordings.


.

I'm waiting for my Parsifal 1951 Naxos in matching packaging. It will be the first Naxos I've ever owned, I hope the sound is as good as I've heard. I will be interested to hear if this Meistersinger sounds good. I finally experienced Meistersinger for the first time last night. I tried it before but never got very far, though the music was always great on my Kubelik CD. Just with no idea of what was going on it couldn't hold my interest. So I recently subscribed to Met Opera on Demand and last night for my first opera I watched Meistersinger. Being able to see it as well as hear it really engaged me in the story and the humor now made sense. I thought it was great and today listened to my Kubelik CD again, now knowing what was going on,I loved it. So I'd be interested in another interpretation. Please let us know how it is or if I should just splurge on the Pristine Kempe XR.


----------



## wkasimer

Ragnar said:


> I will be interested to hear if this Meistersinger sounds good. I finally experienced Meistersinger for the first time last night. I tried it before but never got very far, though the music was always great on my Kubelik CD. Just with no idea of what was going on it couldn't hold my interest. So I recently subscribed to Met Opera on Demand and last night for my first opera I watched Meistersinger. Being able to see it as well as hear it really engaged me in the story and the humor now made sense. I thought it was great and today listened to my Kubelik CD again, now knowing what was going on,I loved it. So I'd be interested in another interpretation. Please let us know how it is or if I should just splurge on the Pristine Kempe XR.


I wouldn't recommend the 1951 Karajan as a second recording, or the Kempe. I don't think that either is particularly competitive anymore, either sonically or cast-wise. The sonics on the 1951 Karajan recording are mediocre at best; the Kempe is somewhat better, but the monaural sound really works to the detriment of the orchestra.

If you need another Meistersinger, I'd recommend Solti 2 instead for its cast, but you might also consider the recent Glyndebourne video, conducted by Jurowski, with Finley as Sachs. It's a beautiful production, and most of the singing is superb.


----------



## Itullian

Ragnar said:


> .
> 
> I'm waiting for my Parsifal 1951 Naxos in matching packaging. It will be the first Naxos I've ever owned, I hope the sound is as good as I've heard. I will be interested to hear if this Meistersinger sounds good. I finally experienced Meistersinger for the first time last night. I tried it before but never got very far, though the music was always great on my Kubelik CD. Just with no idea of what was going on it couldn't hold my interest. So I recently subscribed to Met Opera on Demand and last night for my first opera I watched Meistersinger. Being able to see it as well as hear it really engaged me in the story and the humor now made sense. I thought it was great and today listened to my Kubelik CD again, now knowing what was going on,I loved it. So I'd be interested in another interpretation. Please let us know how it is or if I should just splurge on the Pristine Kempe XR.


I agree with wkasimer. The sound is just ok. You'd do much better with the Solti 2.


----------



## Ragnar

wkasimer said:


> I wouldn't recommend the 1951 Karajan as a second recording, or the Kempe. I don't think that either is particularly competitive anymore, either sonically or cast-wise. The sonics on the 1951 Karajan recording are mediocre at best; the Kempe is somewhat better, but the monaural sound really works to the detriment of the orchestra.
> 
> If you need another Meistersinger, I'd recommend Solti 2 instead for its cast, but you might also consider the recent Glyndebourne video, conducted by Jurowski, with Finley as Sachs. It's a beautiful production, and most of the singing is superb.


Thanks for the advice. Stupid question. How do I know it's the Solti 2?


----------



## howlingfantods

Ragnar said:


> Thanks for the advice. Stupid question. How do I know it's the Solti 2?


It's from the 90s, with Chicago SO instead of the VPO, and stars Van Dam, Heppner, and Mattila, instead of Bailey, Kollo and Bode.

eta - btw, I totally agree on Solti 2 over Kempe and especially Karajan 1 as the second Meistersinger. I'd also probably pick Sawallisch over both. If I were going historical, I'd pick Abendroth with Schoffler Suthaus and Scheppan over the Karajan for sure, who has a bellowing Walt who ruins the recording for me, and probably over the Kempe, who has a lovelier Eva but worse Sachs and Walt.


----------



## amfortas

I'd still find room for Karajan 51 somewhere, though. Looks like you'll have to get a few Meistersingers.


----------



## Itullian

Ragnar said:


> Thanks for the advice. Stupid question. How do I know it's the Solti 2?





















Both of the above are Solti 2.
The orange is first release, the other a second release.










This is Solti 1. Not quite as good, but still pretty good. A full voiced Sachs.


----------



## Ragnar

Thank you all for the help. I know I’ll be grabbing it by the end of the day. Also I definitely don’t have a problem getting multiple versions of a piece I like. I think I may have over 20 Ring cycles with a bunch of single ring operas as well. I’ll report back with my thoughts


----------



## Granate

*Operadepot Meistersinger Karajan 1974*

Now that we are talking Meistersingers...










*Wagner*
DIE MEISTERSINGER VON NÜRNBERG WWV 96 Live recording
Karl Ridderbusch
Gunther Leib
Peter Lagger
René Kollo
Gundula Janowitz
Kerstin Meyer
Peter Schreier
Nikolaus Hillebrand
Gerhard Stolze

*Singverein der Gesellschaft der Musikfreunde
Kammerchor der Salzburger Festspiele
Wiener Staatsopernchor
Berliner Philharmoniker
Herbert von Karajan
Operadepot (1974/2014 Issue Edition)*

Of course, the sound is not as good as in the studio. But this overture sounds too muddy for a 1974 live recording. How did they broadcast the Ring then? In monaural? *It's disappointing that the faulty source tape gets between a livelier Meistersinger than the studio recording*, and equally well-sung. Kollo improves as an actor more than a singer, while Janowitz can interchange with Donath for the Eva role.

I fail to see any marvel here. It's a miracle that the 1976 Lohengrin was so well captured.


----------



## Ragnar

So this is the Solti I bought. I believe it is the Solti 2. Is anyone familiar with this set and know how sound is?


----------



## Itullian

Ragnar said:


> So this is the Solti I bought. I believe it is the Solti 2. Is anyone familiar with this set and know how sound is?


I believe that is a special edition Solti 2. Was issued at the same time as the orange edition. I think it's numbered.


----------



## Ragnar

Itullian said:


> I believe that is a special edition Solti 2. Was issued at the same time as the orange edition. I think it's numbered.




Yes it is 167. Hope the sound quality is good


----------



## DarkAngel

howlingfantods said:


> It's from the 90s, with Chicago SO instead of the VPO, and stars Van Dam, Heppner, and Mattila, instead of Bailey, Kollo and Bode.
> 
> eta - btw, I totally agree on Solti 2 over Kempe and especially Karajan 1 as the second Meistersinger. I'd also probably pick Sawallisch over both. If I were going historical, I'd pick Abendroth with Schoffler Suthaus and Scheppan over the Karajan for sure, who has a bellowing Walt who ruins the recording for me, and probably over the Kempe, who has a lovelier Eva but worse Sachs and Walt.


I"ll still take 56 Kempe studio especially in Pristine XR remaster vs Solti II, of all the Eva/Walther duos I think Grummer/Schock is my very favorite, little doubt that Grummer is our best Eva and Schock has a beautiful lyric voice that is hard to match by other Walthers even compared to Heppner, many walthers come off as a bit stiff or cold not having the warm romantic tone often needed which Schock pulls off easily.....as for Sachsy I just listened again this evening and Frantz was better than I remembered, worthy of the part and as a favotite wagner singer of Furtwangler that speaks volumes.....










The Solti II is better than Solti I, but the CSO orchestra can be really dominant and often overwhelm the singers and chorus, a contender for best stereo version behind Kubelik and well worth getting, Heppner is one of the best Walthers


----------



## wkasimer

Ragnar said:


> So this is the Solti I bought. I believe it is the Solti 2. Is anyone familiar with this set and know how sound is?


The sound is fine, although I wish that the Decca engineers hadn't tried so hard to mask the fact that it's a live performance. While eliminating audience noise, they also removed all of the hall ambience, making it sound like a studio recording.


----------



## Faustian

DarkAngel said:


> I"ll still take 56 Kempe studio especially in Pristine XR remaster, of all the Eva/Walther duos I think Grummer/Schock is my very favorite, little doubt that Grummer is our best Eva and Schock has a beautiful lyric voice that is hard to match by other Walthers even compared to Heppner, many walthers come off as a bit stiff or cold not having the warm romantic tone often needed which Schock pulls off easily.....as for Sachsy I just listened again this evening and Frantz was better than I remembered, worthy of the part and as a favotite wagner singer of Furtwangler that speaks volumes.....only one other meister recording with Frantz a 55 Knap version
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Solti II is better than original but the CSO orchestra can be really dominant and often overwhelm the singers and chorus, a contender for best stereo version behind Kubelik and well worth getting


I agree that the Kempe has a lot of strong attributes, and Solti II is not exactly flawless. It could be argued that the most important person in any Wagner performance is the conductor, and Kempe brings a natural, lyrical touch to the score that absolutely eludes Solti, whose reading has little sense of drama and the proceedings come across as a bit _too_ carefully planned. The Sachs of Ferdinand Frantz seems to be rather divisive; I've seen his interpretation here called a liability by some, while others praise his characterization of the role and his "dark, burnished bass-baritone". I'm with you; his voice is past its prime, yes, but overall I actually enjoy him and find him a better than average cobbler poet. Besides, Van Dam for Solti is also past his prime, his voice lacks the weight of Frantz's, and I find that he all but ignores the humor in the role. Heppner is undoubtedly one of the best Walthers on record, but Grümmer is one of the best Evas. There's no doubt that the Solti recording being in stereo has the superior sound of course, but if one already has the Kubelik with a strong cast in good stereo sound I think Kempe is just as viable an additional supplementary recording of the opera as the Solti.


----------



## Granate

News: Pristine Classical has set up their streaming service. It only needs a Pristine account. Digital files can be streamed in FLAC or 320kbps.

*Monthly subscription: 10€*
Year subscription: 100€

*It has the 

Furtwängler 1950 and 1953 Rings, 1954 Walküre
Krauss Ring and Parsifal 1953
Kempe 1956 Meistersinger
*
As from today, you can stream 36 out of 67 current albums with the "Wagner" tag.


----------



## Ragnar

I’am sure the Kempe is in my future after the Solti 2. Thats my pattern with music. I buy one, then a second after a bit. Then I go on a buying spree grabbing what I can. Stop for a bit, then bug bites again, buy buy buy. Lol.


----------



## DarkAngel

Ragnar said:


> I'am sure the Kempe is in my future after the Solti 2. Thats my pattern with music. I buy one, then a second after a bit. Then I go on a buying spree grabbing what I can. Stop for a bit, then bug bites again, *buy buy buy.* Lol.


The gods of Valhalla salute you my son, we keep this thread going by having new buyers building thier collections and sharing comments, do what must be done......


----------



## Ragnar

DarkAngel said:


> The gods of Valhalla salute you my son, we keep this thread going by having new buyers building thier collections and sharing comments, do what must be done......


I will I will. That's why I love Pristine and Opera Depot. I get to hear performances I never would've had access to. Because it's known what day most were recorded it's like stepping back in time. I sometimes find it hard to believe that for years the only Wagner I had was the Orchestral tape a teacher made me and the Solti Ring, nothing else till fairly recently. So in everything Wagner but the Solti Ring I'am a huge newbie. So it's definitely nice to have you all here to help and make suggestions on worthwhile recordings.


----------



## Ragnar

Just arrived. So excited hope I get time tonight to listen to it. I love when a new performance arrives, it's like Christmas morning every time.


----------



## The Conte

Ragnar said:


> Just arrived. So excited hope I get time tonight to listen to it. I love when a new performance arrives, it's like Christmas morning every time.


You're in for a treat! If you really like the performance then you might like to invest in this version which is in a touch better sound:









N.


----------



## Ragnar

The Conte said:


> You're in for a treat! If you really like the performance then you might like to invest in this version which is in a touch better sound:
> 
> View attachment 98927
> 
> 
> N.


What version is this?


----------



## The Conte

Ragnar said:


> What version is this?


It's on a label called Documents.

N.


----------



## Bill H.

Ragnar said:


> I'am sure the Kempe is in my future after the Solti 2. Thats my pattern with music. I buy one, then a second after a bit. Then I go on a buying spree grabbing what I can. Stop for a bit, then bug bites again, buy buy buy. Lol.


Until you get the Pristine version of the Kempe, you are welcome to try out my own reworking of some long file mp3s of the performance that I purchased some years ago. I did mild reworking of the equalization and added some ambience (not full reverb or anything like that), and made my own track splits for burning onto four CD-ROMS. There's also a folder with the unsplit long file mp3s as well. The Pristine version has a bit more presence and coloration, and fixes some of the problems that were inherent in the original release (not that I can hear all of them). But my remix is there to sample the performance and see if it's to your liking, and hope that there's no issue with the cost. The zips can be accessed here:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByTWd_3f2RpSUGRITy1lUENGWUU


----------



## Barbebleu

Bill H. said:


> Until you get the Pristine version of the Kempe, you are welcome to try out my own reworking of some long file mp3s of the performance that I purchased some years ago. I did mild reworking of the equalization and added some ambience (not full reverb or anything like that), and made my own track splits for burning onto four CD-ROMS. There's also a folder with the unsplit long file mp3s as well. The Pristine version has a bit more presence and coloration, and fixes some of the problems that were inherent in the original release (not that I can hear all of them). But my remix is there to sample the performance and see if it's to your liking, and hope that there's no issue with the cost. The zips can be accessed here:
> 
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByTWd_3f2RpSUGRITy1lUENGWUU


Have you posted this before Bill? If you have I probably downloaded it before, if not, then I certainly shall!


----------



## Ragnar

Bill H. said:


> Until you get the Pristine version of the Kempe, you are welcome to try out my own reworking of some long file mp3s of the performance that I purchased some years ago. I did mild reworking of the equalization and added some ambience (not full reverb or anything like that), and made my own track splits for burning onto four CD-ROMS. There's also a folder with the unsplit long file mp3s as well. The Pristine version has a bit more presence and coloration, and fixes some of the problems that were inherent in the original release (not that I can hear all of them). But my remix is there to sample the performance and see if it's to your liking, and hope that there's no issue with the cost. The zips can be accessed here:
> 
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByTWd_3f2RpSUGRITy1lUENGWUU


Thank you Bill H. I will try it


----------



## Itullian

I enjoyed this. The sound was OK. I thought Edelmann was very good and Schwarzkopf as well. Wasn't crazy about Hopf. but the rest were fine.
I thought Karajan pressed a bit too hard with his faster tempos.
But to hear this historic occasion was well worth it.
I'm sure I'll be listening to it again.
Thanks Amfortas


----------



## Ragnar

Arrived today, it's always nice when the seller is in a nearby town. Great package, resembles a leather bound book. Four quality cds and a 390 page book, contains essays and full libretto. Going to give it a listen as soon as I finish the 51 Parsifal. Then I'm going to give Bill Hs' download a listen. Good times.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> I enjoyed this. The sound was OK. I thought Edelmann was very good and Schwarzkopf as well. Wasn't crazy about Hopf. but the rest were fine.
> I thought Karajan pressed a bit too hard with his faster tempos.
> But to hear this historic occasion was well worth it.
> I'm sure I'll be listening to it again.
> Thanks Amfortas


We can't escape Hopf as Walther in the early 1950s he seems to be everywhere, I was inspired by recent posts to do a quick comparo last weekend of 51 Karajan, 52 Knap, and 53 Reiner (MET boxset)
























All three have Hopf (sigh) and good/very good sound, Sachsy is either Edelmann or Schoffler, and three different Evas with Schwarzkopf, Della Casa, and Vicky DLA........

I found all three very desireable but my very favorite is actually 52 Knap (music & arts label) which has the best sound of the three and Della Casa has that pure angelic innocent tone that makes Eva so effective (like Grummer) in her interactions with Sachs and Walther, don't overlook this one it is really impressive - buy buy buy


----------



## DarkAngel

Ragnar said:


> Arrived today, it's always nice when the seller is in a nearby town. Great package, resembles a leather bound book. Four quality cds and a 390 page book, contains essays and full libretto. Going to give it a listen as soon as I finish the 51 Parsifal. Then I'm going to give Bill Hs' download a listen. Good times.


I listened to this again recently and it is one of the very best stereo versions (behind Kubelik), I love Heppner & Matilla (walther/eva) performances very well cast with great characterizations of their roles and such fresh beautiful tone to the voice, I am not that keen on Van Dam's Sachs however which is just average for me compared to competition, perhaps this was just the best Sachs voice available in 1995......the sound quality is really impressive, the choral and forte orchestral sections are crystal clear and Solti has plenty of dramatic power with thrilling closing passage......the sound was so transparent I could clearly hear the "triangle" during full orchestra assault, nice

I like this better overall vs Sawallisch, Barenboim, or Jochum.....


----------



## Itullian

^^^^My 2 picks as well.
Agree, the sound on the Solti is spectacular!
The end always gives me chills.


----------



## wkasimer

DarkAngel said:


> I listened to this again recently and it is one of the very best stereo versions (behind Kubelik), I love Heppner & Matilla (walther/eva) performances very well cast with great characterizations of their roles and such fresh beautiful tone to the voice, I am not that keen on Van Dam's Sachs however which is just average for me compared to competition, perhaps this was just the best Sachs voice available in 1995


Van Dam's Sachs is underwhelming, I think, because his voice is a size or two two light for the role, and it's a live performance in a fairly large hall. As a result, he has to sing everything at a pretty consistent mezzoforte dynamic, which gets monotonous after four-plus hours of singing.


----------



## DavidA

Granate said:


> Now that we are talking Meistersingers...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Wagner*
> DIE MEISTERSINGER VON NÜRNBERG WWV 96 Live recording
> Karl Ridderbusch
> Gunther Leib
> Peter Lagger
> René Kollo
> Gundula Janowitz
> Kerstin Meyer
> Peter Schreier
> Nikolaus Hillebrand
> Gerhard Stolze
> 
> *Singverein der Gesellschaft der Musikfreunde
> Kammerchor der Salzburger Festspiele
> Wiener Staatsopernchor
> Berliner Philharmoniker
> Herbert von Karajan
> Operadepot (1974/2014 Issue Edition)*
> 
> Of course, the sound is not as good as in the studio. But this overture sounds too muddy for a 1974 live recording. How did they broadcast the Ring then? In monaural? *It's disappointing that the faulty source tape gets between a livelier Meistersinger than the studio recording*, and equally well-sung. Kollo improves as an actor more than a singer, while Janowitz can interchange with Donath for the Eva role.
> 
> I fail to see any marvel here. It's a miracle that the 1976 Lohengrin was so well captured.


Always amazes me how poor the sound of some of Karajan's broadcasts are given the date. Pity. I assume Riddersbusch sings Sachs on this one?


----------



## Faustian

DarkAngel said:


> I like this better overall vs Sawallisch, Barenboim, or Jochum.....


It's kind of tic for tac between all of them as far as I'm concerned; overall I find the Solti sterile, the Sawallisch pedestrian, the Jochum peculiar, the Barenboim deficient. Thank goodness for the Kubelik, or we might be left without a completely satisfying Meistersinger in stereo (although I still insist Haitink should get more recognition for the excellent achievement that it is.)

It's enough to make one lament the fact the Kempe wasn't recorded in stereo when it could have been, and that Hotter wasn't cast as Sachs for the recording rather than Frantz. I would be curious to know the reasoning behind that decision.


----------



## DavidA

Faustian said:


> It's kind of tic for tac between all of them as far as I'm concerned; the Solti is sterile, the Sawallisch pedestrian, the Jochum peculiar, the Barenboim deficient. Thank goodness for the Kubelik, or we might be left without a completely satisfying Meistersinger in stereo (although I still insist Haitink should get more recognition for the excellent achievement that it is.)
> 
> It makes one lament the fact the Kempe wasn't recorded in stereo when it could have been, and *that Hotter wasn't cast as Sachs for the recording rather than Frantz.* I would be curious to know the reasoning behind that decision.


Possibly the same reason as Franz was cast as Wotan instead of Hotter in the Furtwangler Walkure


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## Faustian

DavidA said:


> Possibly the same reason as Franz was cast as Wotan instead of Hotter in the Furtwangler Walkure


Is there an acknowledged reason?


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## wkasimer

Faustian said:


> Is there an acknowledged reason?


I've always wondered about that.


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## DarkAngel

DavidA said:


> Possibly the same reason as Franz was cast as Wotan instead of Hotter in the Furtwangler Walkure


Seems Furtwangler had a good working relation with Frantz since he was used for 50 Scala and 53 RAI Rings, perhaps there was also recording contract reasons or scheduling conflicts so Hotter was not available for EMI studio walkure.......


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## Bill H.

The story I remember reading about the Kempe is that midway through the sessions, stereo equipment became available for it, but the feeling among the cast and conductor was that some of the spirit of the recording might be difficult to recreate if they had to go back and re-do the monaural sessions in stereo. So they finished it in mono. 

As for Hotter vs. Frantz in Meistersinger, I know that in Hotter's own memoirs he noted that while he loved the role, Sachs' music lay in an uncomfortable part of his range, so he made his own decision to stop singing it. In a way it may be possible to sense this when listening to his 1949 Munich performance conducted by Jochum.


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## wkasimer

Bill H. said:


> As for Hotter vs. Frantz in Meistersinger, I know that in Hotter's own memoirs he noted that while he loved the role, Sachs' music lay in an uncomfortable part of his range, so he made his own decision to stop singing it. In a way it may be possible to sense this when listening to his 1949 Munich performance conducted by Jochum.


Hotter did sing the role in one more production, Bayreuth 1956.

BTW, the recordings that Hotter made of the two monologues during the 40's are absolutely gorgeous.


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## Faustian

Bill H. said:


> As for Hotter vs. Frantz in Meistersinger, I know that in Hotter's own memoirs he noted that while he loved the role, Sachs' music lay in an uncomfortable part of his range, so he made his own decision to stop singing it. In a way it may be possible to sense this when listening to his 1949 Munich performance conducted by Jochum.


You can definitely hear some signs of fatigue in the final scene of that performance. If true, one wishes all artists showed that kind of awareness of their capabilities and deference to works. Still, I'm not sure I've heard any other Sachs who really encompassed all the aspects of the character the way he did, and a studio recording would have been much more manageable to navigate. Regrettable that we don't have the opportunity to hear his interpretation in good sound with a great conductor and supporting cast, whatever the reason.


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## howlingfantods

I recall reading someone who asked Hotter about it, and Hotter explained that he had been suffering from very bad hay fever and had a disastrous performance with Furtwangler, I believe in the late 40s. After that incident, Furtwangler considered Hotter unreliable and never secured his services again afterwards.

There are singers who I consider decent to good as Wotan but fairly poor as Sachs. Adam is one, Frantz is another.


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## Bonetan

howlingfantods said:


> I recall reading someone who asked Hotter about it, and Hotter explained that he had been suffering from very bad hay fever and had a disastrous performance with Furtwangler, I believe in the late 40s. After that incident, Furtwangler considered Hotter unreliable and never secured his services again afterwards


Quote from a colleague pertaining to Hotter's reliability:

"I like Hotter during the 1940s. Later he showed signs of wear and tear; if later his voice darkened and his interpretations deepened, he also got into vocal trouble. He holds the record in my book for The Worst Performance Ever of a Major Role by a Major Singer in a Major Opera House: an Italian-language Scarpia in Vienna. Musically, he's all over the map, and his Italian is an abomination. He truly ruins the entire performance."

Hotter is my favorite singer & imo the greatest interpreter of his rep in history. BUT as a young singer studying this rep I found the above comment somewhat comforting lol


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## Ragnar

Bill H. said:


> Until you get the Pristine version of the Kempe, you are welcome to try out my own reworking of some long file mp3s of the performance that I purchased some years ago. I did mild reworking of the equalization and added some ambience (not full reverb or anything like that), and made my own track splits for burning onto four CD-ROMS. There's also a folder with the unsplit long file mp3s as well. The Pristine version has a bit more presence and coloration, and fixes some of the problems that were inherent in the original release (not that I can hear all of them). But my remix is there to sample the performance and see if it's to your liking, and hope that there's no issue with the cost. The zips can be accessed here:
> 
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByTWd_3f2RpSUGRITy1lUENGWUU


I decided to listen to the download that Bill H kindly provided before I gave the Solti 2 a listen. The sound for an MP3 was very good. Though I'm sure the Pristine XR is better, I'am happy with this for the foreseeable future and can spend my money on something else. I enjoyed the performance and will listen again. I just hated the Beckmesser. I kept thinking it was Mime and waiting for him to start singing about killing Siegfried. Maybe because my first full experience with Meistersinger was Levine's 2014 Met performance with Johannes Martin Kränzle as Beckmesser. I loved his version of the lowly town clerk, between seeing him and hearing him, that made me actually like Beckmesser. A lot of times my first exposure to a singers portrayal,that I like, remains my preference for the character. But this is just my opinion. The rest of the performance I can see why people like it and I've always liked Frantz in most things I've heard. I'm thankful to Bill H for providing the mp3 and I'm thankful I have this. Now on to the Solti 2.


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## wkasimer

Ragnar said:


> I decided to listen to the download that Bill H kindly provided before I gave the Solti 2 a listen. The sound for an MP3 was very good. Though I'm sure the Pristine XR is better, I'am happy with this for the foreseeable future and can spend my money on something else. I enjoyed the performance and will listen again. I just hated the Beckmesser. I kept thinking it was Mime and waiting for him to start singing about killing Siegfried. Maybe because my first full experience with Meistersinger was Levine's 2014 Met performance with Johannes Martin Kränzle as Beckmesser.


Kränzle is a tough act to follow. I've heard dozens of Beckmessers, and I think that Kränzle is, by far, the best - the perfect balance of great singing and great characterization.


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## Faustian

wkasimer said:


> Kränzle is a tough act to follow. I've heard dozens of Beckmessers, and I think that Kränzle is, by far, the best - the perfect balance of great singing and great characterization.


I've found a number of Beckmessers thoroughly entertaining, from Bernd Weikl to Hermann Prey, and am especially fond of Thomas Allen's nuanced and touching portrayal. I never saw the 2014 MET production, noting it received some pretty lackluster reviews, but if Kränzle is that much better than all of those, I'll have to check it out eventually.

Benno Kusche is definitely in the more caricatured vein of Beckmessers. It is what it is I suppose. He's one of the better ones who take that approach.


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## wkasimer

Faustian said:


> I've found a number of Beckmessers thoroughly entertaining, from Bernd Weikl to Hermann Prey, and am especially fond of Thomas Allen's nuanced and touching portrayal. I never saw the 2014 MET production, noting it received some pretty lackluster reviews, but if Kränzle is that much better than all of those, I'll have to check it out eventually.


Another alternative is the Glyndbourne video conducted by Jurowski, with Finley as Sachs. A much better production. That was how I first saw and heard Kränzle.



> Benno Kusche is definitely in the more caricatured vein of Beckmessers. It is what it is I suppose. He's one of the better ones who take that approach.


Because he has more voice than most of the others. Pity that he doesn't use it more....


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## Ragnar

wkasimer said:


> Another alternative is the Glyndbourne video conducted by Jurowski, with Finley as Sachs. A much better production. That was how I first saw and heard Kränzle.
> 
> I will have to get a copy of the Glyndbourne performance. I see it's also a cd as well as a video. Do you know if it's the same cast and performance? He impressed me that much. Had me in stitches. As to the Levine 2014 not being any good, I really enjoyed it, but I'm still a newbie.


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## Johnmusic

*Beautiful tone and line.*

Lilli Lehmann sings Isolde "Mild und leise wie er lächelt" - Liebestod


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## wkasimer

Ragnar said:


> I will have to get a copy of the Glyndbourne performance. I see it's also a cd as well as a video. Do you know if it's the same cast and performance?


Certainly the same cast, and probably the same performance. I have both, but if I had to choose, I'd buy the video version, particularly if you have Blu-ray.



> As to the Levine 2014 not being any good, I really enjoyed it, but I'm still a newbie.


I saw it in the movie theatre. It was actually pretty well sung - I just didn't think that the production was very interesting, or that the acting was particularly good.


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## DarkAngel

Future release at Presto UK, 67 Lohengrin Kempe - Bayreuth, James King.........
No sound samples yet, but you know this will be good

Also this looks like a great Xmas gift, full color plates (not B/W) of 1950s Wieland Wagner's revolutionary Bayreuth productions in large format 9 x 12 book......german language text

Amazon does not have a "look inside" feature so not sure exactly what we have here


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## DavidA

DarkAngel said:


>


Interesting as the only film we have of a complete Wieland Wagner production is a grainy blackened white Tristan. Nilsson said in her auto-biography that Boulez, who conducted, came almost completely unprepared and rushed the whole thing. As the lighting was key to Wieland's productions it is a matter of regret that a film wasn't made in colour.


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## DarkAngel

^^^ Check this great pinterest collection of Bayreuth pix..........



__ https://www.pinterest.com/pin/361976888777287397/


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## silentio

Johnmusic said:


> *Beautiful tone and line.*
> 
> Lilli Lehmann sings Isolde "Mild und leise wie er lächelt" - Liebestod


Yes it is beautiful indeed.

Another favorite very-early Liebestod of mine is from the American diva Olive Fremstad (1913). Like Lehmann, she sang with legato and refinement. One can also feel a sense of ecstasy in her trembling here:






Other two great Isoldes of the "bel canto" style are Germaine Lubin and Frida Leider (in poor sound, but caught live):


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## Itullian

Gave this another listen and liked it even more.
Edelmann was really excellent and E. Schwarzkopf too.
Hopf has little nuance but sounds more heroic.
I got used to the ok mono sound pretty quickly.
Karajan conducts with nice flexibility and provides an exciting ending which the crowd applause shows was appreciated.
There is some break up in crowded passages like the quintet,
but all in all a very enjoyable Meister.


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## Couchie

I've become obsessed with this 1943 Tristan lately. A Tristan so good that Hitler/Goebbels allowed this homosexual and his Jewish wife to operate unhindered during the height of WWII...


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## The Conte

DarkAngel said:


> Also this looks like a great Xmas gift, full color plates (not B/W) of 1950s Wieland Wagner's revolutionary Bayreuth productions in large format 9 x 12 book......german language text
> 
> Amazon does not have a "look inside" feature so not sure exactly what we have here


That was one of my Bayreuth purchases, which they had on sale as it was the 100 year anniversary of the birth of Wieland Wagner. There was also an exhibition about him and his life with some of his paintings, set designs and then audio recordings and costumes from his productions.

The book is a good coffee table volume mostly made up of photos of Wieland productions (including a few not of Wagner operas and many from German theatres other than Bayreuth). The text is only in German (although there may be a bit in English, I can't remember), but the book is mostly photos with very little in the way of writing. It's good to leaf through on a Sunday over afternoon tea.

N.


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## Barbebleu

Couchie said:


> I've become obsessed with this 1943 Tristan lately. A Tristan so good that Hitler/Goebbels allowed this homosexual and his Jewish wife to operate unhindered during the height of WWII...


Operate unhindered? Sufficient surely to say they were allowed to live their lives unhindered, which was fortunate indeed. I suspect that things weren't just as clear cut as that and many within the party apparatus would have wished it otherwise.


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## Granate

I was about to upload something interesting. After finishing my project I've done a design you may like or not, but I'll let you discuss the Tristan recording and the Max Lorenz affair. Tomorrow, if you are done, I'll post it here.

Currently listening to my fourth stereo Siegfried in a day.


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## amfortas

Couchie said:


> I've become obsessed with this 1943 Tristan lately. A Tristan so good that Hitler/Goebbels allowed this homosexual and his Jewish wife to operate unhindered during the height of WWII...


Thanks for posting! Lorenz is indeed magnificent. May have to look further into this recording . . . my poor wallet.


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## Couchie

Barbebleu said:


> Operate unhindered? Sufficient surely to say they were allowed to live their lives unhindered, which was fortunate indeed. I suspect that things weren't just as clear cut as that and many within the party apparatus would have wished it otherwise.


Well not just live, but perform also. Apparently they did not want Lorenz performing at Bayreuth, but Winifred replied that there was no Bayreuth without Lorenz.


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## Couchie

amfortas said:


> Thanks for posting! Lorenz is indeed magnificent. May have to look further into this recording . . . my poor wallet.


Its on Spotify:


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## DarkAngel

amfortas said:


> Thanks for posting! Lorenz is indeed magnificent. May have to look further into this recording . . . my poor wallet.


Lorenz can also be heard in 43 Meistersinger Furtwangler as Walther under several labels (also with Jaro Prohaska)......and of course 50 Scala Ring Furtwangler


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## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> Lorenz can also be heard in 43 Meistersinger Furtwangler as Walther under several labels (also with Jaro Prohaska)......and of course 50 Scala Ring Furtwangler


Lorenz's 1943 Walther under Furtwangler is rather manic and not entirely smooth vocally. Here's a sample:






Lorenz was already a bit past his prime by then, but there had always been a wild, on-the-edge quality in his singing that he could exploit in dramatic parts. There are some intense Tannhauser excerpts from 1942, with Maria Reining as Elisabeth, Karl Schmidt-Walter as Wolfram, and Ludwig Hofmann as the Landgraf:






Bel canto it isn't, but it must have been exciting in the theater.


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## Barbebleu

Redundant post! Doh! I really should pay attention to previous posts.


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## Barbebleu

Couchie said:


> Well not just live, but perform also. Apparently they did not want Lorenz performing at Bayreuth, but Winifred replied that there was no Bayreuth without Lorenz.


I suspect that most days were spent in the expectation that things could go horribly wrong at any moment. Not a pleasant existence. There is a very good documentary on YT called Wagner's Mastersinger, Hitler's Siegfried.


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## Granate

*Ring des Nibelungen - Horst Stein 1971 Redesign*







Good morning from Spain. I'll check out that Tristan und Isolde from Max Lorenz on Spotify for my Wagner Challenge in mono.

Yesterday I spent the whole afternoon figuring out how to design the covers of the 1971 Bayreuth Ring by Horst Stein. It shows very good sound and probably I may buy it for the "youthful" singers it offers, according to Operadepot. The sound is quite good, not like 1976.

I didn't have a lot of ideas about how to design it. I was thinking in the Sacred Bones music label as an inspiration. In the design, the cover is supossed to be an envelope with records inside, which I named and then tilted accordingly. The circle in the upper left corner is a ring and was supposed to have a symbol for each opera, but I didn't have many ideas about the icons. Maybe you could help and say what object or entity represents better a Ring opera (like a rainbow for Das Rheingold).

Lately I'm not feeling great in Talk Classical. I don't know if I always come late for the discussions and I often find posts like the Wagner Challenge updates unreplied. I also ask some of you opinions about the Janowski 81 Ring and how does the sound compare from the 2012 cheap box to the Sony Classical 2016 Individual reissues. But I get no reply.

I honestly made these covers to get some attention. It may be very specific, but if it doesn't work I think I should get more into contact with friends from University rather than you, and stop being so obsessed about Wagner or Classical Music as a mean of having conversations with people.


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## Barbebleu

Your covers certainly get attention from me. I use your covers for my operadepot recordings. It is so long since I listened to the Janowski that I would need to revisit it to give any meaningful feedback. If memory serves I rather enjoyed it. I always had a soft spot for Kollo and this set finds him on great form. Sound wise I can't comment as I have only heard my set which was a first edition.









I enjoy reading your reviews and if I fail to comment it is usually because I agree with you.


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## Granate

Thank you very much for your answer, Barbebleu. Which Operadepot recordings would you like to have a cover of? I can't promise fast results but I could leak one or two per week.

Now that I have more time, I could ask all of you how would you like me to design the covers of the Scala Furtwängler Ring in 1950.

I don't actually like the designs of the original covers (the Blue LPs). They have a version on white paper, but I don't know, it's like the drawings don't make justice to the recording. The designs should have the Pristine Classical logo.










But this edition looks interesting, but so similar to the Janowski covers that it has lost the identity battle because of the typography.










I saw this LP (I think it was only Das Rheingold) in Amsterdam. I don't think it's very pretty for the illustration.










But the good thing is that I quite like this powerful cover on CDs of the Scala ring with lightning. It could be a starting point. What do you think?


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## Ragnar

Granate said:


> Good morning from Spain. I'll check out that Tristan und Isolde from Max Lorenz on Spotify for my Wagner Challenge in mono.
> 
> Yesterday I spent the whole afternoon figuring out how to design the covers of the 1971 Bayreuth Ring by Horst Stein. It shows very good sound and probably I may buy it for the "youthful" singers it offers, according to Operadepot. The sound is quite good, not like 1976.
> 
> I didn't have a lot of ideas about how to design it. I was thinking in the Sacred Bones music label as an inspiration. In the design, the cover is supossed to be an envelope with records inside, which I named and then tilted accordingly. The circle in the upper left corner is a ring and was supposed to have a symbol for each opera, but I didn't have many ideas about the icons. Maybe you could help and say what object or entity represents better a Ring opera (like a rainbow for Das Rheingold).
> 
> Lately I'm not feeling great in Talk Classical. I don't know if I always come late for the discussions and I often find posts like the Wagner Challenge updates unreplied. I also ask some of you opinions about the Janowski 81 Ring and how does the sound compare from the 2012 cheap box to the Sony Classical 2016 Individual reissues. But I get no reply.
> 
> I honestly made these covers to get some attention. It may be very specific, but if it doesn't work I think I should get more into contact with friends from University rather than you, and stop being so obsessed about Wagner or Classical Music as a mean of having conversations with people.


The 71 Stein has quickly become one of my favorite Ring cycles. The only problem with it is tape hiss, which is easily forgotten once the performance sweeps you up. May I use your covers for my CDs?


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## Barbebleu

Granate said:


> Thank you very much for your answer, Barbebleu. Which Operadepot recordings would you like to have a cover of? I can't promise fast results but I could leak one or two per week.
> 
> Now that I have more time, I could ask all of you how would you like me to design the covers of the Scala Furtwängler Ring in 1950.
> 
> I don't actually like the designs of the original covers (the Blue LPs). They have a version on white paper, but I don't know, it's like the drawings don't make justice to the recording. The designs should have the Pristine Classical logo.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But this edition looks interesting, but so similar to the Janowski covers that it has lost the identity battle because of the typography.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I saw this LP (I think it was only Das Rheingold) in Amsterdam. I don't think it's very pretty for the illustration.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But the good thing is that I quite like this powerful cover on CDs of the Scala ring with lightning. It could be a starting point. What do you think?


The La Scala lightning bolt box is the one I have so a redesign on that theme would be good for me. I'll have a look at my OD recordings. There are a lot!


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## Barbebleu

I've just finished listening to the Buenos Aires 1938 Tristan. Once you get past the ropey recording quality and the butchering of the score you are left with a very fine Tristan indeed. Lorenz is in great form as are Emmanuel List (Marke) and Herbert Janssen (Kurwenal). The rest of the cast are serviceable. The orchestra rises to the occasion with the exception of some wonky solo playing. The real gems are the conducting of Erich Kleiber which is impassioned and, in places, incandescent. Inspirational stuff and I can see why his son always felt in awe of him although by no means was he his inferior. The other highlight for me is the rather passionate and really well sung Isolde of Hilde Konetzni's older sister, Anny. She is terrific and her Liebestod is one of the most enjoyable I have heard for a long time. A very nice set but probably not for the beginner.


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## Itullian

IIRC Lorenz appears on the '52 Keilberth Ring as well.


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## Woodduck

Barbebleu said:


> I've just finished listening to the Buenos Aires 1938 Tristan. Once you get past the ropey recording quality and the butchering of the score you are left with a very fine Tristan indeed. Lorenz is in great form as are Emmanuel List (Marke) and Herbert Janssen (Kurwenal). The rest of the cast are serviceable. The orchestra rises to the occasion with the exception of some wonky solo playing. The real gems are the conducting of Erich Kleiber which is impassioned and, in places, incandescent. Inspirational stuff and I can see why his son always felt in awe of him although by no means was he his inferior. The other highlight for me is the rather passionate and really well sung Isolde of Hilde Konetzni's older sister, Anny. She is terrific and her Liebestod is one of the most enjoyable I have heard for a long time. A very nice set but probably not for the beginner.


From the excerpts I've heard, I second your high esteem for Erich Kleiber's conducting in particular. I haven't been so thrilled by this music in a long time. Considering him together with Furtwangler, de Sabata, Knappertsbusch, and even the underrated Bodanzky, I have to believe that the old guys were drinking some sort of love potion we've lost the recipe for.

Anny Konetzni really is a fine Isolde, even if she isn't the vocal equal of a Leider or a Flagstad. Too bad the score isn't given complete, and that the sound is so poor. It's a tribute to Kleiber above all that the opera comes across so vividly.


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## SixFootScowl

Granate said:


>


Who is that creepy looking guy on the cover, Alberich? :lol:


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## silentio

What do you think about Moralt's 1948 Parsifal with Treptow, Anny Konetzny, Schöffler, Ludwig Weber, and Vogel?

My quick impression:

Treptow is a lyrical Parsifal, Konetzny is the type of Kundry that cares for the words, and Weber's Gurnemanz is pretty decent. Moralt's leading is adequate, no fussy. It seems that this Parsifal had the singers closely miked, just like Moralt's Gotterdammerung.


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## Granate

Ragnar said:


> The 71 Stein has quickly become one of my favorite Ring cycles. The only problem with it is tape hiss, which is easily forgotten once the performance sweeps you up. May I use your covers for my CDs?


Yes you can!

I'm currently working on the Furtwängler 1950 Ring, more inspired in the Scala Covers than the Thunderbolt Music & Arts box. I don't know how it could develop, but I have already done versions of the four operas in Italian and English. I think it would be extremely hard to emulate the Teatro alla Scala layout from the original covers. Besides, I need to smooth the Scala logo a lot becasuse the curves look terrible. Expect a Pristine XR logo, but also it may take longer than expected.



























(Work in Progress)


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## Ragnar

Granate said:


> Yes you can!
> 
> I'm currently working on the Furtwängler 1950 Ring, more inspired in the Scala Covers than the Thunderbolt Music & Arts box. I don't know how it could develop, but I have already done versions of the four operas in Italian and English. I think it would be extremely hard to emulate the Teatro alla Scala layout from the original covers. Besides, I need to smooth the Scala logo a lot becasuse the curves look terrible. Expect a Pristine XR logo, but also it may take longer than expected.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Work in Progress)


That would be awesome Granate. I have both the Pristine XR Scala and the FNM thunderbolt Scala. I would love some new cover schemes for them as I'm not a fan of eithers original covers


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## Ragnar

Incase anyone was interested Presto Classical is having an anniversary sale on all Naxos CDs and SACDs and Blu-ray audio, downloads not on sale. Sale runs through December 4th 2017. I grabbed The first three parts of Jaap van Zwedens’ new cycle for half of what anyone else has it for, so it was a no brainer. Not historical I know but I’ve liked what I’ve heard of it so far. I’m sure I’ll be going back for some of Naxos great opera series


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## Granate

Barbebleu said:


> The La Scala lightning bolt box is the one I have so a redesign on that theme would be good for me. I'll have a look at my OD recordings. There are a lot!


I've been thinking about this, and one lesson I learned a long time ago about illustration on the internet and art community is that we shouldn't offer our time and effort for free. This means that I need to warn anyone that I do not take requests and I'm not open to commissions (in present time).

I needed to warn about this. But I'll try to work out the Scala thunder cover. Other designs may come up here, but only because I wanted to do them and not because of a request.

The Scala covers now have the White cross in the corner, well shaped. And I have added the final colours to each recording in the background and also the letters. "Teatro alla Scala" has now a smoother shape. It looks really good, but the task of imitating the baroque style of the Scala LPs is too much for me alone. I'll let it rest.

Barbebleu. I'm sorry because it slipped from my keys before, and not yours. I shouldn't have said that.


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## Granate

Back to the OP's thread topic: I'm really enjoying 66 Siegfried with Windgassen. So I'm positive about his 50s performances!


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## Granate

*Ring des Nibelungen - Wilhelm Furtwängler 1950 Redesign I*

I did them! I just needed to use a photoshop brush.
Warning. These covers are inpired in the Columbia/Angel Teatro alla Scala covers in LP. Design credits go to them. Also, the fonts used have been Bodoni MT Bold, Bodoni MT Italic, Belwe Light and Belwe Medium. They have the Pristine XR cover but they have nothing to do with the Pristine Classical website. These are fanmade. They cannot be used for commercial purposes.


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## Granate

*Ring des Nibelungen - Wilhelm Furtwängler 1950 Redesign II*


































Releases in Italian. I may prefer these.


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## Ragnar

Granate said:


> I did them! I just needed to use a photoshop brush.
> Warning. These covers are inpired in the Columbia/Angel Teatro alla Scala covers in LP. Design credits go to them. Also, the fonts used have been Bodoni MT Bold, Bodoni MT Italic, Belwe Light and Belwe Medium. They have the Pristine XR cover but they have nothing to do with the Pristine Classical website. These are fanmade. They cannot be used for commercial purposes.


I like them Granate. I'am going to download them and use them for my Scala Pristine set


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## Granate

I've completed the Philips edition of Bayreuth covers. Link for download in *My works on restoring Original Jackets*










I hope I don't get warnings by moderators for linking and uploading so many custom covers.


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## Ragnar

Granate said:


> I've completed the Philips edition of Bayreuth covers. Link for download in *My works on restoring Original Jackets*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope I don't get warnings by moderators for linking and uploading so many custom covers.


Very nice Granate and thank you for the download you sent me


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## Couchie

Barbebleu said:


> I suspect that most days were spent in the expectation that things could go horribly wrong at any moment. Not a pleasant existence. There is a very good documentary on YT called Wagner's Mastersinger, Hitler's Siegfried.


It might be shameful to say so, but that's perhaps what makes the 1943 recording so compelling. Here's an "open secret" homosexual, with Jewish wife, in a mostly bombed-out Berlin at the height of WWII, knowing any day could be his last, singing the painful delirium that is Act III of Tristan. Melchior, in the safety of the USA, is far too perfect and blocky and does not come even close to Lorenz's conviction. He is perhaps the only one to really do Act III justice.


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## Ragnar

*Karajan Ring Studio Vs Salzburg Live*





I've finished listening to both Karajan Ring cycles both studio and Salzburg. The studio version I own on original vinyl mint stereo but with underlying hiss which I believe is in the recording. The Salzburg Ring is from Opera Depot. Rheingold in stereo, Walkure, Siegfried and Gotterdammerung in mono. I like the studio ring, it's never been a first choice, but I always find myself returning to it, mostly for the playing of the Berliner Philharmoniker and esp the conducting of HvK. It's a very polished recording every note crystal clear. It's a reading I find very beautiful and majestic. Though I don't believe it's what the Ring narrative always calls for. But it's hard to not get caught in the web that Karajan weaves. I've never been totally enamored of the cast, though I don't think they are as bad as some people claim. Some times they sound a little thin but I think that could be a consequence of the polish Karajan and the DG engineers were going for. I now believe this after hearing mostly the same cast from Salzburg. I've always known Karajan live was a conducting beast from a lot of the early live recordings I've heard of him as opposed to the studio recordings I've heard of the same pieces. I think in the studio he was only interested in perfection some times at the cost of passion. In Salzburg you hear Karajan raw with no do overs. The polish isn't there but the beauty and majesty of Karajans vision still are. The sound is nowhere as good as the studio of course, but what Salzburg does have over the studio is a power and life that are not present in the studio recordings. The singers are not the greatest, but allowed to unleash live with no constraints like in the studio they impressed me. They seem to ride the raw power wave that HvK unleashes. I was caught up in the Salzburg as well. With the studio though I like it I've never been in a hurry to begin the next opera at the conclusion of the previous. The Salzburg had me reaching for the next cd as soon as the last notes faded on the previous opera. The studio obviously wins for sound. The Salzburg is not a professional recording though it's not that bad. The studio is all stereo as opposed to only Rheingold being stereo with the Salzburg. For over all performance and raw power the Salzburg is much much better. Makes you wish HvK just let go in the studio and wasn't so much a perfectionist and tinkerer. He has a lot of haters but the man was definitely a master on the podium especially live, they should hear the Salzburg. I'll never part with the studio version but I think I'll be reaching for the Salzburg more often of the two. I definitely recommend giving the Salzburg a listen but don't pass up the studio either. This is all just my opinions and someone else may hear it differently. I know this probably wasn't the in-depth comparison that Granate wanted but I hope it was enough for him to save up and wait for the next Opera Depot sale and snag a great performance.


----------



## Granate

Thank you very much for the review, Ragnar. I'm very satisfied with the Studio ring myself and I think that one will be my next Wagner purchase. In the Siegfried thread I tried to argue (or justify) why I didn't buy the Salzburg Ring instead of, say, a 74 Salzburg Meistersinger, a 76 Bayreuth Tristan and Parsifal and a 76 Salzburg Lohengrin. I believe every word you say about the seek for perfection in the live territory for Karajan, but I argue that other issues and conductors offer the same and in better sound. If not the same, quite similar.

My next Wagner purchase should be the studio Karajan ring for 27€ in Amazon.de, and when the next sale comes up in OD, the Stein 71 Ring. You may see that in my challenges, the three first operas of the Boulez 76 Ring have won easily.

How do you compare the 76 Boulez and the 71 Stein Rings? (You don't need to listen to them right now) Do they offer very different concepts in orchestra, in casting?


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## Ragnar

Ragnar said:


> I want to thank those members that recommended the 1971 Stein Ring to me. I had been looking at it, but probably never would've bought it. Except for Gwyneth Jones and Theo Adam I had never heard of anyone else in the cast. Stein I'd heard of but never really heard. I cherish a few cycles as my essentials and I constantly replay them, other cycles I've listened to once and never felt the need to reach for it again, but very few Rings have had me this over the moon. I'am on my second run through the cycle since Thursday. I very rarely start a cycle over as soon as I've finished it. Is this the best sung or best orchestra ever? No, though both are very good. Its that everyone fits like a puzzle piece perfectly into the performance for me. Catarina Ligendza is stella. Gwyneth Jones, Jean Cox and Helge Brilioth are all great. Theo Adam I'am finding I really like his younger take on Wotan. He wont supplant Hotter or Franz as my top two though, but that's fine, like the rest he fits in the puzzle for this cycle perfectly. I've heard some slow performances by better regarded conductors that leave me alittle bored after awhile. Or fast conductors that leave me behind. Stein isn't slow or fast he just conducts great and moves the whole piece forward at a nice pace, speeding up and slowing down where necessary, so I'm not aware how much time has passed. It shows that he learned under Krauss and Karajan among others. I have felt drawn into this performance. The Bayreuth Orchestra sounds wonderful, full and clear. Also it doesnt hurt that the sound is out of this world. I've only heard the mp3 also, my cd's were shipped yesterday and I can't wait to hear if they're even better. Though keep in mind that this is just my opinion. Someone else may hear it and think its crap. I always tell people it would be a pretty boring world if we all liked the exact same things. I just know that this cycle has already earned a place in my essentials group.


Granate this was my opinion of the 1971 Stein a few weeks ago. I've listened to it several times now and it is still my opinion. I like the 76 Boulez very much. Much more than the Philips commercial release. Stein and Boulez have different styles. Stein I feel is very much in the old school Ring conducting which I really like. Boulez is a little faster and more airy to my ears. I'am happy I have both, but if I had to keep one it would be Stein 71. The Stein just hits me harder than the Boulez. Boulez is very good though and it is probably more to some tastes. I'm actually listening to it today as I write this, it's great. I'll still take the Stein 71.


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## Granate

All I needed to know. Thank you very much!

I would have no more questions about OD, *but I want to hear from you (plural) when you rip your OD cds and find what is the quality of the audio files.* Could they have FLAC or a mp3 file with a .cue?


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## Ragnar

Granate said:


> All I needed to know. Thank you very much!
> 
> I would have no more questions about OD, *but I want to hear from you (plural) when you rip your OD cds and find what is the quality of the audio files.* Could they have FLAC or a mp3 file with a .cue?


I'm ripping some tonight actually, I'll let you know. I do know way back when I first bought the Boulez 76 I ripped Rheingold and it didn't rip as the same album. It showed up as separate ones. Not the end of the world to change metadata. Just a pain. Now I usually just keep the mp3 on my fiio X5ii and leave the CDs for home. But I want the Stein on cd quality on my player. I have been noticing Opera Depot having more Flac though


----------



## Ragnar

So ripped a few CDs from Opera Depot and they loaded with no song titles and no album info at all. Had to put everything in manually. Not the end of the world just a pain. On plus side nice opportunity to make all CDs into one continuous album on music player.


----------



## KenOC

Tracks on CDs typically include no metadata. Track names, performers, and so forth have to be retrieved from one of two or three free on-line databases. Most ripping programs will do this automatically if the CDs are in the database you specify.


----------



## Ragnar

KenOC said:


> Tracks on CDs typically include no metadata. Track names, performers, and so forth have to be retrieved from one of two or three free on-line databases. Most ripping programs will do this automatically if the CDs are in the database you specify.


They weren't I checked. I uploaded them into the iTunes based database when I was done.


----------



## Itullian

I think I may have just heard the best Dutchman ever. youtube
1944 Krauss, Hans Hotter, awesome!!!


----------



## Granate

^^










If you say so, off to my Wagner Höllander Challenge in Mono (Also available on Spotify)










On the other hand, this Götterdämmerung is blowing me away. Martha Mödl is the best Waltraute I've heard even over Christa Ludwig and after other 8 stereo recordings. Upcoming full review in the Götterdämmerung thread in Opera on CD.

Why do so many Götterdämmerung releases put Act III Overture/Vorspiel alone in CD3 to continue in CD4? Not only Böhm, even when it fits perfectly. Karajan is excused for the lengthy 1h22m version of the Act.


----------



## wkasimer

Granate said:


> Why do so many Götterdämmerung releases put Act III Overture/Vorspiel alone in CD3 to continue in CD4?


The phrase "inexcusable incompetence" springs to mind...


----------



## Ragnar

Itullian said:


> I think I may have just heard the best Dutchman ever. youtube
> 1944 Krauss, Hans Hotter, awesome!!!


I like it as well for everyone but Krauss's wife as Senta


----------



## Granate

This is the Götterdämmerung from the Kempe 1960 ring, missing on Spotify, in case you want to give it a comparative listen like me in a while.

The rest of the operas from 1960 to 1962 in Bayreuth are available on Spotify.

I guess I can afford to ignore the 63 Ring in Operadepot...

I posted this because I'm currently *making my list of Historical recordings for the Wagner Challenge.* Spotify and Presto Classical Streaming if possible. Few Holländers, Tannhäusers, Meistersingers, and loads of Lohengrins, Tristans, Rings and Parsifals (half of them Kna).


----------



## Granate

This ring goes to my challenge list too and it's available on Youtube (DR DWK) and Spotify (SF GDR).


----------



## Granate

1963 Parsifal, the only one missing in Spotify. Now all Parsifals 1951-1964 from Bayreuth are on the list.






Oh look. Wieland Wagner excerpts from Das Rheingold (Scene 4) and Götterdämmerung (Act III), filmed in Japan.


----------



## Granate

*Mono recordings for Wagner Challenge*

*DFH*
Krauss BaySO 44
Reiner Met 50
Knappertsbusch BFO 55
Keilberth BFO 56
Sawallisch BFO 59

*Tannhäuser*
Stiedry Met 48
Leinsdorf Met 49
Keilberth BFO 54
Cluytens BFO 55
Sawallisch BFO 61
Karajan WStO 63

*Lohengrin*
Bodanzki Met 35
Abravanel Met 37
Leinsdorf Met 43
Schüchter SOdNDR 53
Keilberth BFO 53
Jochum BFO 54
Cluytens BFO 58
Matacic BFO 59
Knappertsbusch BaySO 63

*TUI*
Reiner ROH CG 36
Beecham ROH CG 37
Bodanzki Met 37
Reiner Met 50
Kempe Met 55
Sabata Scala 51
Heger SKB 43
Knappertsbusch BaySO 50
Cluytens WStO 56
Furtwängler PO 52
Furtwängler SKB 47
Jochum BFO 53
Sawallisch BFO 57
Sawallisch BFO 58
Karajan BFO 52
Böhm BFO 62

*DMvN*
Abendroth BFO 43
Konwitschny SKB 55
Cluytens BFO 57
Kempe BPO 57
Knappertsbusch BaySO 55
Knappertsbusch BFO 60

*Der Ring des Nibelungen*
Bodanzki/Leinsdorf Met Naxos
Moralt WSO 49
Furtwängler Scala 50
Furtwängler RAI 53
Keilberth BFO 52
Keilberth BFO 53
Krauss BFO 53
Knappertsbusch BFO 56
Knappertsbusch BFO 57
Knappertsbusch BFO 58
Kempe BFO 60 
Kempe BFO 61
Kempe BFO 62

*Die Walküre*
Furtwängler WPO 54

*Götterdämmerung*
Fjeldstad Nor 56

*Parsifal*
Moralt WSO 48
Stiedry Met 54
Leinsdorf Met 60
Cluytens Scala 60
Knappertsbusch BFO 51
Knappertsbusch BFO 52
Krauss BFO 53
Knappertsbusch BFO 54
Knappertsbusch BFO 56
Knappertsbusch BFO 57
Knappertsbusch BFO 58
Knappertsbusch BFO 59
Knappertsbusch BFO 60
Knappertsbusch BFO 61
Knappertsbusch BFO 63
Knappertsbusch BFO 64

Am I missing anything apart from some interesting Rings like Maazel 68-69, Karajan Salzburg, Stein 71?

Having doubts about these:


















Meistersinger Karajan 51
Lohengrin Maazel 60


----------



## Barbebleu

Granate said:


> *DFH*
> Krauss BaySO 44
> Reiner Met 50
> Knappertsbusch BFO 55
> Keilberth BFO 56
> Sawallisch BFO 59
> 
> *Tännhäuser*
> Stiedry Met 48
> Leinsdorf Met 49
> Keilberth BFO 54
> Cluytens BFO 55
> Karajan WStO 63
> 
> *Lohengrin*
> Bodanzky Met 35
> Abravanel Met 37
> Leinsdorf Met 43
> Schüchter SOdNDR 53
> Keilberth BFO 53
> Jochum BFO 54
> Cluytens BFO 58
> Matacic BFO 59
> Knappertsbusch BaySO 63
> 
> *TUI*
> Reiner ROH CG 36
> Beecham ROH CG 37
> Bodanzky Met 37
> Reiner Met 50
> Kempe Met 55
> Sabata Scala 51
> Heger SKB 43
> Knappertsbusch BaySO 50
> Cluytens WStO 56
> Furtwängler PO 52
> Furtwängler SKB 47
> Jochum BFO 53
> Sawallisch BFO 57
> Sawallisch BFO 58
> Karajan BFO 52
> Böhm BFO 62
> 
> *DMvN*
> Abendroth BFO 43
> Konwitschny SKB 55
> Cluytens BFO 57
> Kempe BPO 57
> Knappertsbusch BaySO 55
> Knappertsbusch BFO 60
> 
> *Der Ring des Nibelungen*
> Bodanzki/Leinsdorf Met Naxos
> Moralt WSO 49
> Furtwängler Scala 50
> Furtwängler RAI 53
> Keilberth BFO 52
> Keilberth BFO 53
> Krauss BFO 53
> Knappertsbusch BFO 56
> Knappertsbusch BFO 57
> Knappertsbusch BFO 58
> Kempe BFO 60
> Kempe BFO 61
> Kempe BFO 62
> 
> *Die Walküre*
> Furtwängler WPO 54
> 
> *Götterdämmerung*
> Fjeldstad Nor 56
> 
> *Parsifal*
> Moralt WSO 48
> Stiedry Met 54
> Leinsdorf Met 60
> Cluytens Scala 60
> Knappertsbusch BFO 51
> Knappertsbusch BFO 52
> Krauss BFO 53
> Knappertsbusch BFO 54
> Knappertsbusch BFO 56
> Knappertsbusch BFO 57
> Knappertsbusch BFO 58
> Knappertsbusch BFO 59
> Knappertsbusch BFO 60
> Knappertsbusch BFO 61
> Knappertsbusch BFO 63
> Knappertsbusch BFO 64


So we should hear back from you sometime in 2019.:lol:


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## Granate

Barbebleu said:


> So we should hear back from you sometime in 2019.:lol:












Nah, I hope to finish it by February 2018. Merl is waiting for me to begin my Beethoven challenge with 50 complete cycles.


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## Ragnar

Just bought both of these on eBay $5.50 a piece.


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## Granate

Ragnar said:


> Just bought both of these on eBay $5.50 a piece.


I don't like the postimage options either. I copy the direct link and put it in







. And then it becomes larger.

What made you buy the Parsifal excerpts?

Edit to avoid another post:

Thoughts on this one for the challenge? Melchior is Siegmund and Varnay is Sieglinde. Paul Breisach, Metropolitan Opera, 1946.


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## Barbebleu

Granate said:


> Nah, I hope to finish it by February 2018. Merl is waiting for me to begin my Beethoven challenge with 50 complete cycles.


Are you listening to every note or are you comparing samples?


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## Granate

Barbebleu said:


> Are you listening to every note or are you comparing samples?


Every note, seriously (and tons of reggaeton adverts too )


----------



## Itullian

Listened to this on youtube last night.

Excellent!


----------



## Granate

Furtwängler 1953 Ring by Membran. I'm a bit confused, what can have that big booklet inside? It cannot be just the tracklist. What a waste of booklet.

Edit: it is an old release. The new one is the standard box set.


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## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> So we should hear back from you sometime in 2019.:lol:


2020, 2021.....Granate you will go insane with all that work for the mono "challenge" hopefully you can use spotify, tidal, youtube streaming since that is a small fortune in wagner CDs if you can even find them....then comes the wagner stereo challenge etc etc etc 

I did read most of your Bruckner challenge since I am Anton B fan....

BTW I hate those odd size CD boxsets since I have dedicated shelving system made just for CD size storage, it is big enough for deluxe hardbound digibook edition CDs but for instance I just bought this Messiah and have no place to store it now (original pix showed CD format size box).....


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## Granate

DarkAngel said:


> 2020, 2021.....Granate you will go insane with all that work for the mono "challenge" hopefully you can use spotify, tidal, youtube streaming since that is a small fortune in wagner CDs if you can even find them....*then comes the wagner stereo challenge* etc etc etc


I'm about to finish my Wagner Stereo Challenge this week. This morning I finished watching the Stein Parsifal DVD on YT and from this afternoon I will do 12 stereo Parsifals, including Kubelík (found a youtube source to cover it) and Knappertsbusch 62 (the rest go to the mono challenge).

Yes, using Spotify, and sometimes YouTube, and for the Historical recordings, some PC Streaming.

I also noticed that while the MYTO Kempe 60s are becoming OOP (issued 2011), the new Operadepot Edition could become the edition to get now, thanks to a new Walküre with Nilsson instead of Varnay. They offer it on FLAC, MP3 and CD.

Should I rate the 61/62 Ring recordings from Leinsdorf in the Met? It's OOP on CD, but fully available on Spotify.


----------



## wkasimer

Granate said:


> Should I rate the 61/62 Ring recordings from Leinsdorf in the Met? It's OOP on CD, but fully available on Spotify.
> 
> [/IMG]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -


I only know the Siegfried from this cycle; here's what I wrote about it a couple of years ago:

"The sound is really not what it should be; this 1962 Met broadcast has nothing like the excellent sound that one can hear from Bayreuth broadcasts of the same period. This sounds like an AM broadcast, with all of the treble filtered out. I have less of an issue with audience noise, which has never bothered me on recordings (oddly, it bothers me a lot more at a live performance).

"I can say nothing about the conducting, since the sound of the orchestra is so constricted.

"The cast is a very mixed bag. I'm generally a Hopf fan, but the high tessitura in Act 1 shows him at his worst. Oddly, he sounds better, and steadier of tone, in Act 3, after a long afternoon of singing.

"I am generally NOT a fan of Nilsson on recordings, but this seems like one of her better recorded performances. Perhaps it's the recording quality, but she sounds fuller of voice and less strident here than on many of her more famous recordings. London's voice has the right quality for the Wanderer, but the manner is ungainly, the singing rather monochromatic, and as always, his intonation is very problematic. Ralph Herbert is a perfectly good Alberich, but the less said about Paul Kuen's Mime, the better. I've never understood why he was in such great demand in the role, when his singing is so utterly unmusical. I don't believe that he sings a single phrase that remotely resembles what Wagner wrote.

"In short, worth hearing once, but I'd be a lot happier if someone would come up with a better sonic source."


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## Granate

Thanks wkasimer!

The Konwitschny CG Ring instead or is it too similar to other with better sound like Knappertsbusch?


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## wkasimer

Granate said:


> The Konwitschny CG Ring instead or is it too similar to other with better sound like Knappertsbusch?


I don't know the Walhall issue of this cycle; I bought the cheaper version on Amazon:









BTW, the Marketplace seller offering the set for $18.98 is VERY slow about shipping.

Based on the Memories issue that I have (and with the caveat that I've only heard Rheingold and Walkure), I don't think that it's essential. As you suggest, the Bayreuth sets from the late 50's feature similar casts in much better sound.


----------



## Barbebleu

wkasimer said:


> "but the less said about Paul Kuen's Mime, the better. I've never understood why he was in such great demand in the role, when his singing is so utterly unmusical. I don't believe that he sings a single phrase that remotely resembles what Wagner wrote."


Totally agree here. I recall reviewing a Ring Cycle with Kuen as Mime ( can't remember which) and at the time I think I said something along the lines that he sounded like he was singing variations on a theme of Richard Wagner. He sounded like he was singing notes that fitted with the orchestral line but clearly weren't the notes that Wagner wrote. Weird that the conductor never picked him up on this.


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## Itullian

Excellent!


----------



## Granate

I notice that Operadepot pushes the Elisabeth Söderström sale until Thanksgiving. It looks that Black Friday is next and that could mean 50% sale, I hope.

My two choices:


















I give up for now on the Stein ring because I'm not exactly liking his pace on the 1976 Parsifal. Review upcoming. Now starting Act III with Good Friday music.


----------



## Granate

Granate said:


> Why do so many Götterdämmerung releases put Act III Overture/Vorspiel alone in CD3 to continue in CD4?





wkasimer said:


> The phrase "inexcusable incompetence" springs to mind...


I'm checking tracklists in stereo Parsifal recordings and I don't know if I should agree with you. Many have the first 20 and 10 minutes of Acts II and III split. With nowadays burning technology, we should be able to have releases of the 62 Knappertsbusch, 81 Karajan and 73 Solti with Acts II and III in 1 CD each. There has not been a second Karajan release and it's normal that the jump happens, but I cannot believe that the 2006 Kna release still cannot put the acts in one cd. The Boulez and Barenboim releases are already fine with the acts per cd.


----------



## Itullian

Not a first choice because of the sound and the disfiguring cut in act 2.
but worth hearing for the cast and conducting.


----------



## Ragnar

Itullian said:


> Not a first choice because of the sound and the disfiguring cut in act 2.
> but worth hearing for the cast and conducting.


I had these Archipel CDs of La Scala Ring. I thought they sounded really good compared to others releases. Have the FNM cd set as well, it sounds pretty good too. After hearing the Pristine XR Scala though I sold the Archipel set. I kept the FNM because it's OOP and expensive used. But for someone who doesn't want to or can't afford the Pristine the Archipel will serve them well with no regrets imo.


----------



## Granate

Do you know that OperaDepot has *60% sale* off everything and I'm not even tempted to buy any ring???

My purchases:


----------



## Ragnar

Granate said:


> Do you know that OperaDepot has *60% sale* off everything and I'm not even tempted to buy any ring???
> 
> My purchases:


Nice. I'm looking at the 1960 Bayreuth Ring and the 1970 Bayreuth Ring. As well as the 1943 Meistersinger. So far lol


----------



## Granate

Ragnar said:


> Nice. I'm looking at the 1960 Bayreuth Ring and the 1970 Bayreuth Ring. As well as the 1943 Meistersinger. So far lol


The 70 BFO Ring has 3 of the operas in Mono. You could try Maazel 69 (all Stereo) or the Goodall/Davis Covent Garden Ring (15 CDs in average stereo sound).


----------



## Ragnar

Granate said:


> The 70 BFO Ring has 3 of the operas in Mono. You could try Maazel 69 (all Stereo) or the Goodall/Davis Covent Garden Ring (15 CDs in average stereo sound).


It's Berit Lindholm I'am interested in hearing. The 70 Ring is the only one she sang Brunnhilde in all three


----------



## DarkAngel

Granate said:


> Do you know that OperaDepot has *60% sale* off everything and I'm not even tempted to buy any ring???


I made one purchase with current 60% sale (I really have way too much already) from a recent forum discussion about Hans Hotter rare Sachs performances, 49 Jochum (hard to find) features Hotter's exemplary Sachs but marred by weak Eva, too cheap to pass up.....


----------



## Ragnar

DarkAngel said:


> I made one purchase with current 60% sale (I really have way too much already) from a recent forum discussion about Hans Hotter rare Sachs performances, 49 Jochum (hard to find) features Hotter's exemplary Sachs but marred by weak Eva, too cheap to pass up.....


Can't wait to hear how it sounds. Halloween sale I picked up the 56 Meistersinger with Hotter under Cluytens. I like Hotter in the role.


----------



## Granate

Two recorded operas from OperaDepot which I reccomend everyone to download and listen to. The Stein 76 Parsifal is in my opinion the best "sung" of all the 13 reviewed. However, there are lots of drop-outs and noise-floor. The Karajan Lohengrin from the same year is my favourite stereo Lohengrin and shows Karajan without studio attachments, and the cast (especially Nimsgern's Telramund) works much better than the paper suggests.










Anyone listened to this one? It has Vickers and it's in stereo (don't know if totally complete).


----------



## Ragnar

Just bought the Moralt Ring. Couldn't pass it up for the price and I have been interested in it for awhile. Always looked at the Myto releases, first time I've seen it complete in the Gebhardt version. When I get it I'll report on the sound. This purchase means my Opera Depot cart needs readjustment. Lol


----------



## Ragnar

Love when the mailman brings my latest finds. All used excellent condition $3 a piece.


----------



## Barbebleu

Ragnar said:


> Love when the mailman brings my latest finds. All used excellent condition $3 a piece.


The best $18 you'll ever spend!


----------



## Ragnar

Barbebleu said:


> The best $18 you'll ever spend!


I'm very excited. Now to choose which is first


----------



## Ragnar

Also picked up Barenboim Tristen for $7, but it hasn’t come yet. I’m determined to finally devote some deep time to Tristan. I’ve listened to it many times but have never really dove into it as I should have. So with the Barenboim I think I now have a good representation of it. I now have. 

Furtwängler
Karajan studio 
Karajan 52
Kleiber studio
Kleiber 76
Böhm 
Reiner 36
Leinsdorf 43
And Barenboim 

Are there any I’am missing that will deepen my understanding?


----------



## Woodduck

Ragnar said:


> Also picked up Barenboim Tristen for $7, but it hasn't come yet. I'm determined to finally devote some deep time to Tristan. I've listened to it many times but have never really dove into it as I should have. So with the Barenboim I think I now have a good representation of it. I now have.
> 
> Furtwängler
> Karajan studio
> Karajan 52
> Kleiber studio
> Kleiber 76
> Böhm
> Reiner 36
> Leinsdorf 43
> And Barenboim
> 
> Are there any I'am missing that will deepen my understanding?


Knappertsbusch 1950


----------



## Ragnar

Woodduck said:


> Knappertsbusch 1950


Thank you Woodduck I will grab it


----------



## Faustian

Ragnar said:


> Also picked up Barenboim Tristen for $7, but it hasn't come yet. I'm determined to finally devote some deep time to Tristan. I've listened to it many times but have never really dove into it as I should have. So with the Barenboim I think I now have a good representation of it. I now have.
> 
> Furtwängler
> Karajan studio
> Karajan 52
> Kleiber studio
> Kleiber 76
> Böhm
> Reiner 36
> Leinsdorf 43
> And Barenboim
> 
> Are there any I'am missing that will deepen my understanding?


I would second Woodduck's recommendation, and would also strongly suggest checking out Reginald Goodall's Tristan with the Welsh National Opera orchestra. Goodall was a master at shaping the music of this opera into long arches that build to powerful, inevitable climaxes. I consider it to be one of the best conducted sets available.


----------



## Woodduck

Faustian said:


> I would second Woodduck's recommendation, and would also strongly suggest checking out Reginald Goodall's Tristan with the Welsh National Opera orchestra. Goodall was a master at shaping the music of this opera into long arches that build to powerful, inevitable climaxes. I consider it to be one of the best conducted sets available.


A set also distinguished by Linda Esther Gray's warm, feminine Isolde. Her German vowels can be a little strange, and it gets in the way of my really loving her performance, but apparently not everyone is bothered by it. The rest of the cast is very good, if not more than that.


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## amfortas

Ragnar said:


> Also picked up Barenboim Tristen for $7, but it hasn't come yet. I'm determined to finally devote some deep time to Tristan. I've listened to it many times but have never really dove into it as I should have. So with the Barenboim I think I now have a good representation of it. I now have.
> 
> Furtwängler
> Karajan studio
> Karajan 52
> Kleiber studio
> Kleiber 76
> Böhm
> Reiner 36
> Leinsdorf 43
> And Barenboim
> 
> Are there any I'am missing that will deepen my understanding?


How about Heger 43, especially for Max Lorenz's Tristan?


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## Barbebleu

Ragnar said:


> I'm very excited. Now to choose which is first


Start with the Reiner, Melchior, Flagstad!


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## OperaChic

amfortas said:


> How about Heger 43, especially for Max Lorenz's Tristan?


Is this performance note complete, or does it have the traditional cuts?


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## wkasimer

OperaChic said:


> Is this performance note complete, or does it have the traditional cuts?


As far as I'm concerned, the less Lorenz the better.


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## amfortas

OperaChic said:


> Is this performance note complete, or does it have the traditional cuts?


I've only heard excerpts, mostly from the final act, so I'm not sure. Apparently there's at least one cut in the Act II love duet, but Tristan's Act III monologue (where Lorenz appears at his best) is unscathed. This would make the recording more complete than a couple on Ragnar's list.



wkasimer said:


> As far as I'm concerned, the less Lorenz the better.


Views differ. I haven't been taken by what I've heard of Lorenz in the early fifties, but am significantly more impressed by this earlier performance.


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## wkasimer

amfortas said:


> Views differ. I haven't been taken by what I've heard of Lorenz in the early fifties, but am significantly more impressed by this earlier performance.


This isn't early enough for my taste. I've heard records of Lorenz dating back as far as the late 1920's. The earliest ones are OK, but over time, it was less singing and more akin to yelling on pitches. For me, anything after about 1935 crosses the line into unacceptability. The recordings he made during and after the war define the term "provincial bawler".

I know that a lot of people admire Lorenz' singing. I'm just not one of them.


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## Itullian

Any opinions on this one?
The sound seems very good.
And I like the two V's.
Vinay and Varnay.


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## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Any opinions on this one?
> The sound seems very good.
> And I like the two V's.
> Vinay and Varnay.


I have it but the sound is not good by Bayreuth standards (as I recall the forte notes were distorted including liebestod) my favorite Varnay performance is a 55 MET shown below, very few Isolde performances available and as expected Astrid gives us passionate dramatic performance and her amber lower voice is well suited to the erotic nature of act 2










1952 1952 1952 1952 1952 1952 1952 1952 1952 1952 1952 1952
Furtwangler & Karajan........


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## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> I have it but the sound is not good by Bayreuth standards (as I recall the forte notes were distorted including liebestod) my favorite Varnay performance is a 55 MET shown below, very few Isolde performances available and as expected Astrid gives us passionate dramatic performance and her amber lower voice is well suited to the erotic nature of act 2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *1952 1952 1952 1952 1952 1952 1952 1952 1952 1952 1952 1952
> Furtwangler & Karajan........*




I have that Karajan, remember? 









Do you know if the Jochum has complete acts on each cd?


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

Woodduck said:


> A set also distinguished by Linda Esther Gray's warm, feminine Isolde. Her German vowels can be a little strange, and it gets in the way of my really loving her performance, but apparently not everyone is bothered by it. The rest of the cast is very good, if not more than that.


I love Linda Esther Gray's Isolde, and Gwynne Howell's beautiful voice is ideal for portraying the tragic nobility of King Marke. John Mitchinson gives us a compelling Tristan, even if his timbre isn't particularly beautiful (but then neither were Fritz Uhl or René Kollo, and I still admire their Tristans). As an added bonus, we have singers of the calibre of Arthur Davies and Nicholas Folwell in the bit-parts. Philip Joll is a bit of an acquired taste as Kurwenal, but at least he's in better voice here than he was as Amfortas in Goodall's WNO _Parsifal_. Goodall's handling of the orchestra, and their playing, is superb. The sound is excellent.


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## Ragnar

I’am downloading the Knappertsbusch, Goodall and Heger on Spotify till I can find cheap CDs elsewhere. These together with the ones I already have I think I’am going to listen to them in year of release order to get an idea of how performances have changed over time. Starting with the Reiner working towards the Barenboim being the most recent. Maybe I’ll need one more modern after Barenboim


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## Granate

I made myself with the Paris _Parsifal_ in 1976 (what an anniversary) with Vickers. I could have tried the Goodall 71 recording in London, but Youtube has already that release and in stereo, not monaural as OD.



















I'm very happy for you Ragnar. Except for the Solti Holländer, I'm interested in your impressions of the CDs. Great purchase. If I could just get to Germany and find a LP Philips release of the Böhm Ring...










Not interested in the LPs, but in the Booklets. Also, shipping is criminal in Discogs and ebay. Not a priority, though.

Well, smaller, but this could do:


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

There's a remarkable record of Goodall's 1981 English National Opera _Tristan_ on YouTube:






Alberto Remedios, Linda Esther-Gray, Norman Bailey, John Tomlinson, Felicity Palmer. Quite a cast.


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## Ragnar

Thank you Granate. I’ve been really getting into a lot of early fifties and prefifties recordings of late. If you can get by the background noise on a lot of them there is some true treasures to be had. Background noise doesn’t bother me after a couple minutes I can usually forget about it. Though sometimes you just can’t ignore it. I’ve been very impressed with these Naxos transfers great sound quality on the ones I’ve heard. One of which is the 1927 incomplete Parsifal by Muck which I find simply marvelous and have listened to several times now. As for Solti. He was my only Ring for years, so I love him for that. Sometimes my mood just needs to have a powerful Wagner interpretation to carry me away. I’ve been impressed with the other recordings I’ve acquired of his


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## Barbebleu

Granate said:


> If I could just get to Germany and find a LP Philips release of the Böhm Ring...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not interested in the LPs, but in the Booklets. Also, shipping is criminal in Discogs and ebay.


How much is the postage from U.K. To Spain? If it's not stupid I'll sell you mine. The booklets are good but I've read them countless times.


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## SenaJurinac

*Milka Ternina*

One of the greatest sopranos of shellac age - the great Croatian singer Milka Ternina, or Trnina


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## Ragnar

SenaJurinac said:


> One of the greatest sopranos of shellac age - the great Croatian singer Milka Ternina, or Trnina


It's hard to get the full effect of her voice with this. But what I can hear sounds great. She must've been something back then. You look at some of the productions she was in and she was in demand. Only sang at Bayreuth once. From what I've read she sang in the first Parsifal outside Bayreuth at the Met and along with Alfred Hertz was never invited back by the Wagner family. I'd like to find this in better sound.


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## Granate

*Updated Furtwängler 53 Ring + 52 Tristan*

New download for one week. Both the Ring and Tristan feature *new EMI logos.*


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## Pugg

Granate said:


> *Updated Furtwängler 53 Ring + 52 Tristan*
> 
> New download for one week. Both the Ring and Tristan feature *new EMI logos.*


Is that a Polish site or what?


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## Granate

It's a wetransfer link... What happened?


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## Pugg

Granate said:


> It's a wetransfer link... What happened?


That much I see, but a strange language ( for me that is)


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## Granate

Click the cover to download the covers of the Furtwängler Scala ring. Now with a new Box cover for all the Ring. Two typographies.

Requested by WildThing. Remember that these are fanmade covers. Pristine Classical has nothing to do. Don't sue me Axel Rose.


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## DarkAngel

DarkAngel said:


> I made one purchase with current 60% sale (I really have way too much already) from a recent forum discussion about Hans Hotter rare Sachs performances, 49 Jochum (hard to find) features Hotter's exemplary Sachs but marred by weak Eva, too cheap to pass up.....


Andrew Rose has something for us, media source is live broadcast Bavarian Radio tapes, listen to the amazing animated voice of this Sachs (Hans Hotter) on sample track..........

https://www.pristineclassical.com/products/paco145










Also Rose gives us the answer as to why the 56 Cluytens Meister from Bayreuth does not sound as good as other performances that year......



> The only other recording of Hotter singing Sachs dates from 1956 Bayreuth appearance, and a performance he was so unhappy with he instructed that the master tapes be wiped - it survives only in an off-air recording.


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## Bill H.

DarkAngel said:


> Andrew Rose has something for us, media source is live broadcast Bavarian Radio tapes, listen to the amazing animated voice of this Sachs (Hans Hotter) on sample track..........


Yes, I saw this in my email feed this morning. Great news!


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## Faustian

DarkAngel said:


> Andrew Rose has something for us, media source is live broadcast Bavarian Radio tapes, listen to the amazing animated voice of this Sachs (Hans Hotter) on sample track..........
> 
> https://www.pristineclassical.com/products/paco145


Oh man, thanks for bringing this to our attention! I snatched this up immediately. Hotter is the most vividly characterized Sachs I know, and Jochum and the cast obtain a perfect balance of warm lyricism and delightful banter in this Munich performance. Can't wait to hear what Rose has done with this.


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## Granate

Very off-topic, but can anyone reccomend a Strauss Salome recording from OperaDepot for the next sale?

I didn't quite get the Nilsson or Gwyneth Jones commercial recordings.


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## Faustian

Granate said:


> Very off-topic, but can anyone reccomend a Strauss Salome recording from OperaDepot for the next sale?
> 
> I didn't quite get the Nilsson or Gwyneth Jones commercial recordings.


I enjoy the Nilsson recording -- no one brings out the nerve-racking hysteria like Solti -- but I think Leonie Rysanek is very much worth hearing in the role. I have the live Böhm performance from 1972 at the Vienna State Opera that I like, but that doesn't appear to be available at Operadepot. They _do_ have this performance featuring Rysanek, which looks like it could be even better:


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## Itullian

This one sounds much better.
To tell the truth, I really didn't care much for Hotter's Walhall issue.

And by the description, Mr Rose seems to think the idea of whole acts on their own disc is as important as I do. 

But to me, the price is still prohibitive.


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## Granate

Itullian said:


> But to me, the price is still prohibitive.


We should all really try Pristine Classical Streaming. I'll be using the monthly subscriptions for my Wagner Mono challenge.










I had heard samples, but doesn't it have too much reverb (like singing in an empty basement)?


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## Faustian

Itullian said:


> This one sounds much better.
> To tell the truth, I really didn't care much for Hotter's Walhall issue.


It definitely is. Hotter is in better voice, and the sound and performance are superior here to the Bayreuth recording under Cluytens.

Something to put on the wishlist, perhaps.



Granate said:


> I had heard samples, but doesn't it have too much reverb (like singing in an empty basement)?


I just listened to the samples and it is indeed very reverb-y. A shame, because the cast looks excellent. Still, at that relatively cheap price it might be worth the purchase. I just shelled out the dough for Pristine's Jochum Meistersinger, so you know I won't be picking it up anytime soon. :lol:


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## Bill H.

Itullian said:


> This one sounds much better.
> To tell the truth, I really didn't care much for Hotter's Walhall issue.
> And by the description, Mr Rose seems to think the idea of whole acts on their own disc is as important as I do.
> But to me, the price is still prohibitive.


For these expensive ones, I usually wait until some sort of periodic sales that he offers. 
But if you want your itch scratched at least partially right now, you're welcome to the version I worked on several years ago. I used a couple of different sources for it, and the remix isn't as aggressive as Rose's, but it doesn't sound bad and the performance is always worth a listen. There's both folders with tracks split for writing on to four CDs, or long unsplit mp3 files for each Act.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByTWd_3f2RpSemZ0UU43dWIwZTQ

Unfortunately I couldn't get Act I completely on a separate disk by itself, probably because of the pitch issue that Mr. Rose mentions on his website--if I had known to correct for the pitch, perhaps I could have gotten to squeeze Act I onto a single CD.


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## Itullian

^^^^Thank you Bill!


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## Itullian

The sound on this one seems pretty good.
How is it?


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## wkasimer

Itullian said:


> The sound on this one seems pretty good.
> How is it?


Not essential, but Neidlinger is a much, much better Sachs than one might predict, based on the rest of his repertoire.


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## Granate




----------



## Ragnar

Gave in and bought this download. Ambient stereo 24 bit. This will be my last purchase for awhile. I think it sounds wonderful. With a real sense of theatre space. Hotter sound powerful. The whole performance is much better than the Cluytens 56 I have. Having never heard this performance in any other way I can't comment on how much better it is, but based on other Pristine recordings that I've heard against other releases of same material I bet it's much better


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## Granate

What do you think about early 2000s remasters of Wagner by Mark Obert-Thorn?








































No. Do not count Pristine alternatives. I talk about comparing Naxos Tristan vs EMI ART Tristan, ZYX Lohengrin vs Naxos Lohengrin, MYTO Meistersinger to Naxos Meistersinger.
Also, for the Decca studio Meistersinger with Knappertsbusch, Eloquence vs Naxos.


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## gardibolt

Ragnar said:


> Gave in and bought this download. Ambient stereo 24 bit. This will be my last purchase for awhile. I think it sounds wonderful. With a real sense of theatre space. Hotter sound powerful. The whole performance is much better than the Cluytens 56 I have. Having never heard this performance in any other way I can't comment on how much better it is, but based on other Pristine recordings that I've heard against other releases of same material I bet it's much better


Thanks for the review. I've been on the fence about this one but I think you've persuaded me to go for it. I don't think I have any pre-1950 Hotter (if I do, I've forgotten it), so I'll be very interested in giving it a listen.


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## wkasimer

Granate said:


> What do you think about early 2000s remasters of Wagner by Mark Obert-Thorn?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No. Do not count Pristine alternatives. I talk about comparing Naxos Tristan vs EMI ART Tristan, ZYX Lohengrin vs Naxos Lohengrin, MYTO Meistersinger to Naxos Meistersinger.
> Also, for the Decca studio Meistersinger with Knappertsbusch, Eloquence vs Naxos.


I own all of these, and have also owned the releases by the original owner (Decca or EMI). In almost every case, when I compared, I preferred Obert-Thorn's transfer. The differences were generally slight, but audible on careful listening. The only exception is the Furtwangler Tristan, where I thought that they sounded different, but that I preferred the EMI by a slight margin.


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## The Conte

Granate said:


> What do you think about early 2000s remasters of Wagner by Mark Obert-Thorn?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> No. Do not count Pristine alternatives. I talk about comparing Naxos Tristan vs EMI ART Tristan, ZYX Lohengrin vs Naxos Lohengrin, MYTO Meistersinger to Naxos Meistersinger.
> Also, for the Decca studio Meistersinger with Knappertsbusch, Eloquence vs Naxos.


I've had a few of these. I compared ZYX and Naxos Lohengrins and the Naxos was the winner. However when comparing Naxos Parsifal with the one on Documents, I found the documents clearer with more presence. I have only one version of the other sets so can't comment on those, but I have wondered whether the Myto, original EMI or Naxos sets are better for the Meistersinger too.

N.


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## Granate

Today I start my second and last Wagner challenge: Mono recordings. It's a big list of opera recordings but I'm optimistic.

I finally purchased the Spotify premium offer (99cents/3months) to have less interruptions. Also, The Kempe Bayreuth Lohengrin (stereo) is finally uploaded there.










*Die Fliegende Holländer*
Krauss BaySO 44
Schüchter HPO 51
Reiner Met 50
Fricsay RIAS 59
Knappertsbusch BFO 55
Keilberth BFO 56
Sawallisch BFO 59
Schippers Met 60

*Tännhäuser*
Stiedry Met 48
Leinsdorf Met 49
Keilberth BFO 54
Cluytens BFO 55
Sawallisch BFO 61
Karajan WStO 63

*Lohengrin*
Bodanzki Met 35
Abravanel Met 37
Leinsdorf Met 43
Schüchter SOdNDR 53
Keilberth BFO 53
Jochum SOdBR 57
Jochum BFO 54
Cluytens BFO 58
Matacic BFO 59
Maazel BFO 60
Knappertsbusch BaySO 63
Böhm WStO 65
Kempe BFO 67

*Tristan und Isolde*
Reiner ROH CG 36
Beecham ROH CG 37
Heger SKB 43
Bodanzky Met 37
Leinsdorf Met 41
Reiner Met 50
Sabata Scala 51
Knappertsbusch BaySO 50
Cluytens WStO 56
Kempe Met 55
Furtwängler PO 52
Furtwängler SKB 47
Karajan BFO 52
Jochum BFO 53
Sawallisch BFO 57
Sawallisch BFO 58
Böhm BFO 62
Böhm WPO 67
Mehta RAI 72
Karajan Salz 72

*Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg* _(Yawn)_
Abendroth BFO 43
Jochum BaySO 49 (PCS)
Karajan BFO 51
Konwitschny SKB 55
Cluytens BFO 57
Kempe BPO 57 (PCS)
Leinsdorf BFO 59
Knappertsbusch WPO 51
Knappertsbusch BaySO 55
Knappertsbusch BFO 60

*Ring Spares*
DWK Breisach Met 46
DWK Kempe BFO 60 Nilsson
DWK Furtwängler WPO 54
GDR Fjeldstad Nor 56

*Der Ring des Nibelungen*
Bodanzki/Leinsdorf Met Naxos
Moralt WSO 49
Furtwängler Scala 50 (PCS)
Furtwängler RAI 53 (PCS)
Keilberth BFO 52
Keilberth BFO 53 (Mem)
Krauss BFO 53 (PCS)
Knappertsbusch BFO 56
Knappertsbusch BFO 57
Knappertsbusch BFO 58
Kempe BFO 60 
Kempe BFO 61
Kempe BFO 62

*Parsifal*
Moralt WSO 48
Stiedry Met 54
Leinsdorf Met 60
Cluytens Scala 60
Gui RAI
Knappertsbusch BFO 51
Knappertsbusch BFO 52
Krauss BFO 53 (PCS?)
Knappertsbusch BFO 54
Knappertsbusch BFO 56
Knappertsbusch BFO 57
Knappertsbusch BFO 58
Knappertsbusch BFO 59
Knappertsbusch BFO 60
Knappertsbusch BFO 61
Knappertsbusch BFO 63
Knappertsbusch BFO 64
Boulez BFO 67
Stein ORTF 76

Sorry because I already posted a list like this before, but this one is updated with many mono studio recordings.


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## DarkAngel

> Today I start my second and last Wagner challenge: Mono recordings. It's a big list of opera recordings but I'm optimistic.
> 
> *I finally purchased the premium offer (99cents/3months)* to have less interruptions. Also, The Kempe Bayreuth Lohengrin (stereo) is finally uploaded there.


What premium service, spotify?

I went Tidal premium when it very first came out and almost never use spotify now, although for now I still subscribe to both, a priceless service that quicky pays for itself (reduced CD purchases) many times over with ease of use and vast selection......

I have already checked out that new Orfeo Lohengrin, I might add it to my CD collection if sale price is low enough, King is fine swan knight but not quite the level of Thomas & Konya.......


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## Granate

*Tristan Sale in OperaDepot!*

My picks for $12


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## Faustian

Granate said:


> *Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg* _(Yawn)_
> Abendroth BFO 43
> Jochum BaySO 49 (PCS)
> Karajan BFO 51
> Konwitschny SKB 55
> Cluytens BFO 57
> Kempe BPO 57 (PCS)
> Leinsdorf BFO 59
> Knappertsbusch WPO 51
> Knappertsbusch BaySO 55
> Knappertsbusch BFO 60


That's quite a lot of listening for something that's _yawn _-enducing.  As someone who loves this opera with every fiber of my being and having recently listened to or revisited most of those recordings on your list I'd be happy to save you the trouble. 

1.Knappertsbusch 1960
2.Knappertsbusch 1951
3. Jochum
4. Kempe
5. Abendroth
6. Karajan
7. Knappertsbusch 1955

But they all have much to recommend in them.


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## gardibolt

I downloaded the 1949 Jochum Meistersinger last night from Pristine. I've only listened to half of the first act, but the sound quality is just stunning for 1949.


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## Granate

Has anyone listened to this recording? I'm so sad I did not see this during the Cyber monday sale, the sound is quite better than Bayreuth 1971. It's true that I already have a Kollo Lohengrin...


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## Granate

*Astrid Varnay: An acquired taste?*

From the recent N&W Callas thread:



schigolch said:


> A 'soprano sfogato' is basically a singer able to get a potent, heavy low register, while at the same time she can sing in the traditional soprano range, and manage well coloratura.
> 
> Most of the roles are coming from Italian belcanto period: Norma, Anna Bolena, Abigaille, Armida... We are talking the very great divas of the 19th century, women like Giuditta Pasta, María Malibrán, Isabella Colbran,... Legendary stuff.
> 
> This is what Callas did, to sing in the 20th century some of these roles, the way they were conceived and performed when they were created. Including, for instance, the rescue of Amina, a role written and premiered by Giuditta Pasta, that with the passing of time was sung by very light sopranos.
> 
> Of course, this was not the only thing that Callas did. But it was very daring, and for sure the one I like the most.





nina foresti said:


> I suspect you are confused by the terms "soprano sfogato and assoluta" -- terms one does not hear very often these days because it is an unusual sound that not many sopranos seem to have. You are likely quite familiar with terms like lyric soprano, dramatic soprano and the like, but sopranos in the sfogato/assoluta category have the ability to sing coloratura-like highs with the same comfort as a contralto-like low. You must admit that this sound is most unusual -- and intriguing.
> If you are more interested in delving into this type of voice and the comparisons made between Pasta and Callas, you might want to read Ardoin/Fitzgerald's Callas-- to me a must in any operatic library.
> And to make your day, I too will add my name to the "likes" in schilgoch's post which I should have done in the first place.


I Never knew this. I suspect this does not apply to Wagnerian singing. I would like to be able to explain why does Astrid Varnay put me off as a soprano, especially when led by Joseph Keilberth.

However, I'm quite liking her early stuff, like her Metropolitan Venus or Bayreuth Senta under Knappertsbusch. Finishing Tannhäuser and moving to Lohengrin soon. I'm having new hopes for her after disappointing stereo releases by Testament (55 Ring Brünnhilde) and Philips (62 Ortrud). Maybe Knappertsbusch is able to give her more room in the 56-58 rings. That's what I felt comparing her 55 and 56 Sentas.


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## Malx

My first venture over onto the opera area of the Talk Classical site. 
I am no expert but enjoy what I enjoy when it comes to opera. I am getting to know Wagner's operas bit by bit having mainly focused initially on the Ring Cycle after the soft introduction, some would say, of the Flying Dutchman.

As I type I am currently listening to a bleeding chunk of Die Walkure recorded live conducted by Toscanini in 1941 featuring Helen Traubel (Sieglinde) & Lauritz Melchior Siegmund).


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## Barbebleu

Granate said:


> Has anyone listened to this recording? I'm so sad I did not see this during the Cyber monday sale, the sound is quite better than Bayreuth 1971. It's true that I already have a Kollo Lohengrin...


I have it (of course) but have not got round to listening to it (of course)


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## Woodduck

Granate said:


> I suspect this [assoluta] does not apply to Wagnerian singing. I would like to be able to explain why does Astrid Varnay put me off as a soprano, especially when led by Joseph Keilberth.
> 
> However, I'm quite liking her early stuff, like her Metropolitan Venus or Bayreuth Senta under Knappertsbusch. Finishing Tannhäuser and moving to Lohengrin soon. I'm having new hopes for her after disappointing stereo releases by Testament (55 Ring Brünnhilde) and Philips (62 Ortrud). Maybe Knappertsbusch is able to give her more room in the 56-58 rings. That's what I felt comparing her 55 and 56 Sentas.


Varnay, lacking a developed coloratura technique - obviously not needed in Wagner save for the occasional trill - can't be called a soprano assoluta. She did have a very strong chest register, and that's important in the repertoire she specialized in. Many Wagnerian sopranos could pass as mezzos (Birgit Nilsson being the noteworthy exception, with a brilliant upper extension rare among dramatic sopranos).

As you may be noticing, Varnay's voice changed rather markedly as she aged, becoming darker and heavier and less easy at the top. In fact, she ended up as a mezzo. She seems to divide opinion rather widely: some love her, some can't stand her. As for why you might not like her, I can only point to my own objections to a harshness in her high notes, her lazy vibrato, and, perhaps most importantly, her habit of attacking notes from below the pitch. I should also say that when I heard recordings from her younger years (the 1940s) I was delightfully surprised that none of these traits were apparent. There's a really marvelous Sieglinde from the Met that reveals a bright tone, a clean attack, and a tight, quick vibrato. It's obvious why her old friend Kirsten Flagstad recommended her in place of herself for the reopened Bayreuth Festival after the war.

P.S. The late 19th- early 20th-century soprano Lilli Lehmann probably did deserve the title assoluta, as she sang not only Isolde and Brunnhilde but Norma, the Queen of the Night, and practically everything else.


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## silentio

Woodduck said:


> Varnay, lacking a developed coloratura technique - obviously not needed in Wagner save for the occasional trill - can't be called a soprano assoluta. She did have a very strong chest register, and that's important in the repertoire she specialized in. Many Wagnerian sopranos could pass as mezzos (Birgit Nilsson being the noteworthy exception, with a brilliant upper extension rare among dramatic sopranos).
> 
> As you may be noticing, Varnay's voice changed rather markedly as she aged, becoming darker and heavier and less easy at the top. In fact, she ended up as a mezzo. She seems to divide opinion rather widely: some love her, some can't stand her. As for why you might not like her, I can only point to my own objections to a harshness in her high notes, her lazy vibrato, and, perhaps most importantly, her habit of attacking notes from below the pitch. I should also say that when I heard recordings from her younger years (the 1940s) I was delightfully surprised that none of these traits were apparent. There's a really marvelous Sieglinde from the Met that reveals a bright tone, a clean attack, and a tight, quick vibrato. It's obvious why her old friend Kirsten Flagstad recommended her in place of herself for the reopened Bayreuth Festival after the war.
> 
> P.S. The late 19th- early 20th-century soprano Lilli Lehmann probably did deserve the title assoluta, as she sang not only Isolde and Brunnhilde but Norma, the Queen of the Night, and practically everything else.


I used to be a fan of Varnay and Duck kinda talked me out of it. And I agree that when one gets to appreciate the like of Leider, Lubin and Flagstad, it is hard to listen to Varnay in Wagner's heroines anymore. However, I do enjoy her a great deal in dramatic mezzo roles like Ortrud and Kostelnička.

Off topic for a while, I am no fan of Nilsson either. I will acknowledge that she is rock solid, more secure than anyone else- including Flagstad in her prime, but I just can't digest that kind of cold, almost expressionless singing.

The only post-Flagstad Wagnerian sopranos who had both secure and expressive voice are IMO Gertrude Grob-Prandl,an awesome Brunnhilde in Siegfriend and Gotterdammerung under Moralt, and Linda Esther Gray, a great Isolde under Goodall:


----------



## DarkAngel

I am huge fan of Varnay's wagner, I have no real problems with her vocal technique and just consider it her own unique sound or style, what really matters can she bring the characters to life emotionally and dramatically which is what I love about Astrid...she really connects with me and makes each wagner role thrilling and heartfelt. The scences with Hotter during 1950s have never been surpassed for me.......I find her inspiring

To have the backing of wagner family and invited each year during 1950s iconic era to sing major roles (and later smaller roles) on the greatest wagner stage and be a major star of MET wagner group in 1940s speaks highly of her artistic merit, also to have Flagstad's backing speaks volumes

Everyone has to make their own choice about what appeals to them despite what I or anyone else says, people have different tastes which is fine


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## amfortas

Malx said:


> As I type I am currently listening to a bleeding chunk of Die Walkure recorded live conducted by Toscanini in 1941 featuring Helen Traubel (Sieglinde) & Lauritz Melchior Siegmund).


Not a bad place to be at all.


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> I am huge fan of Varnay's wagner, I have no real problems with her vocal technique and just consider it her own unique sound or style, what really matters can she bring the characters to life emotionally and dramatically which is what I love about Astrid...she really connects with me and makes each wagner role thrilling and heartfelt. The scences with Hotter during 1950s have never been surpassed for me.......I find her inspiring
> 
> To have the backing of wagner family and invited each year during 1950s iconic era to sing major roles (and later smaller roles) on the greatest wagner stage and be a major star of MET wagner group in 1940s speaks highly of her artistic merit, also to have Flagstadt's backing speaks volumes
> 
> Everyone has to make their own choice about what appeals to them despite what I or anyone else her says, people have different tastes which is fine


I'm with you DA. I love her Wagner too.


----------



## amfortas

Woodduck said:


> As you may be noticing, Varnay's voice changed rather markedly as she aged, becoming darker and heavier and less easy at the top. In fact, she ended up as a mezzo. She seems to divide opinion rather widely: some love her, some can't stand her. As for why you might not like her, I can only point to my own objections to a harshness in her high notes, her lazy vibrato, and, perhaps most importantly, her habit of attacking notes from below the pitch. I should also say that when I heard recordings from her younger years (the 1940s) I was delightfully surprised that none of these traits were apparent. There's a really marvelous Sieglinde from the Met that reveals a bright tone, a clean attack, and a tight, quick vibrato.


What's more remarkable is that it was the twenty-three-year-old singer's first stage appearance ever--at the Metropolitan Opera alongside Lauritz Melchior, Helen Traubel, and Friedrich Schorr! An impressive debut, marred only by taking place the day before Pearl Harbor. Still a recording to treasure.


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## DarkAngel

^^^^ Once again thanks to Flagstad miss Varnay auditioned for MET director Johnson at age 22 and was placed in apprentice program voice trained by conductor Hermann Weigert (later to be her husband) and had fully learned 11 leading wagner roles, her impressive MET and professional debut above was on national radio broadcast......

How to top that? Six days later she replaced Traubel in brunnhilde role and throughout the 1940s was a major wagner MET star along with many other great singers sitting out the war years, the wheels came off in 1950 with R Bing becoming MET director who decided to almost eliminate the wagner wing, fortunately for Astrid new bayreuth was calling








Astrid's MET debut


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## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> ^^^^ Once again thanks to Flagstad miss Varnay auditioned for MET director Johnson at age 22 and was placed in apprentice program voice trained by conductor Hermann Weigert (later to be her husband) and had fully learned 11 leading wagner roles, her impressive MET and professional debut above was on national radio broadcast......
> 
> How to top that? Six days later she replaced Traubel in brunnhilde role and throughout the 1940s was a major wagner MET star along with many other great singers sitting out the war years, the wheels came off in 1950 with R Bing becoming MET director who decided to almost eliminate the wagner wing, fortunately for Astrid new bayreuth was calling
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Astrid's MET debut


It's odd that Flagstad didn't advise young Astrid to put off Wagner for a while, as she herself did and can be heard advising young singers to do on this radio talk:






Birgit Nilsson also waited till her late thirties to make her mark as Isolde and Brunnhilde, and always said that she valued doing other repertoire all through her career to keep the voice "slender" and light. It seems that Varnay jumped right into the deep end of the pool. "Slender and light" is about the last thing you can say about her sound in the 1950s and '60s.


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## wkasimer

Woodduck said:


> It's odd that Flagstad didn't advise young Astrid to put off Wagner for a while, as she herself did and can be heard advising young singers to do on this radio talk:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Birgit Nilsson also waited till her late thirties to make her mark as Isolde and Brunnhilde, and always said that she valued doing other repertoire all through her career to keep the voice "slender" and light. It seems that Varnay jumped right into the deep end of the pool. "Slender and light" is about the last thing you can say about her sound in the 1950s and '60s.


IIRC, Varnay and Nilsson were actually born the same year.


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## DarkAngel

^^^^ Probably the war caused things to move faster for Astrid than ideally planned, after her father died her mother remarried and moved family to New Jersey where Astrid was known as "violet" and in close proximity to MET so things developed their own momentum......her mother (herself a famous hungarian opera singer) was basically teaching and advising Astrid at this time

From her bio Astrid recalls the New Jersey years with her group of friends who often attended the MET saturday performances with bargain last minute tickets, her friends knew she worked at MET but not much more detail, when the group went to Dec 6 Walkure without violet, they were shocked and surprised to see their good friend was actually onstage singing Sieglinde role......


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## Woodduck

Great story! I must think of an equivalent way to impress my friends.


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## amfortas

Woodduck said:


> Great story! I must think of an equivalent way to impress my friends.


You do it here, every day.


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## Granate

(Yawn) I have results and reviews for my Wagner Mono challenge in Holländer and Tannhäuser, and I'm halfway through Lohengrin (5th recording). But I feel so lazy to post them on the CD and DVD area...


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## Woodduck

amfortas said:


> You do it here, every day.


:kiss: ...................


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## DarkAngel

Don't think I have lost my mind, but recently ordered this from Presto UK year end sale ($13), 
Schock never in the conversation of top wagner singers, but his Walther from 56 Kempe meister is perhaps my favorite so I checked into this......

Check his "in fernem land" at 3:08 below from this performance, beautiful lyric soft voice, ringing top note with respectable heft and forte command, good sense of awe, mystery, reverence and fierce pride.....what's not to like?

Another Lohengrin for DA's collection


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## Itullian

^^^^^Good buy DA. I have it and its better than it looks.


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## Woodduck

Itullian said:


> ^^^^^Good buy DA. I have it and its better than it looks.


Klose was probably the outstanding Ortrud of her generation, Metternich is unjustly overlooked nowadays, and Frick is Frick. It would be interesting for them, at least.


----------



## Granate

DarkAngel said:


>


I've been listening to this one right now. It goes right above all the War Metropolitan recordings and probably above many Bayreuth ones. I don't know how can you improve the male cast.


----------



## Couchie

wkasimer said:


> This isn't early enough for my taste. I've heard records of Lorenz dating back as far as the late 1920's. The earliest ones are OK, but over time, it was less singing and more akin to yelling on pitches. For me, anything after about 1935 crosses the line into unacceptability. The recordings he made during and after the war define the term "provincial bawler".
> 
> I know that a lot of people admire Lorenz' singing. I'm just not one of them.


Every singer's voice quality follows a parabolic curve over the course of their career as they learn and then age. That's opera. Measuring every recording against the vertex is nothing but self-imposed misery when there's something new to be appreciated in every recording.


----------



## Itullian

Listened to this last night on youtube. Here's what I thought.

The sound is great! Full and clear, not much hiss at all.
Cluytens leads a wonderful performance with lively spacious tempi with plenty of feeling.
The quintet was fantastic with Grummer's voice soaring in a great ensemble cast.
I thought Geisler was very good. A strong voice maybe needing a touch more nuance.
Neidlinger was pretty good most of the time, though I kept thinking of Alberich.
His voice was kind of hard in places and I didn't care for his final monologue very much as he clipped his words and didn't have much line. Maybe he was tired as this is a live recording.
Grummer is amazing and worth the price.

All in all a very good Meister with very good sound.
Worth having IMHO.


----------



## Granate

Itullian said:


> Neidlinger was pretty good most of the time, though I kept thinking of Alberich.


I swear his 1960 Telramund had the same feeling!


----------



## Woodduck

Poor Neidlinger! He's so identified with Alberich that everything he sings makes us think of nasty Nibelungs!


----------



## wkasimer

Couchie said:


> Every singer's voice quality follows a parabolic curve over the course of their career as they learn and then age. That's opera.


That's true for many singers, but to my ears, all Lorenz learned were bad musical habits. Certainly nothing to compenstate for his vocal decline.

[/QUOTE]Measuring every recording against the vertex is nothing but self-imposed misery when there's something new to be appreciated in every recording.[/QUOTE]

I sometimes listen to Lorenz as an exemplar of the nadir of Wagnerian singing, to make other singers sound good by comparison.


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## Granate

I don't know if I'm posting in the wrong threads or when the party is over and no one is inside and everything has been discussed. I wrote my results of my Lohengrin Episode for the Wagner Mono Challenge. Even having all the reviews done, I spent two hours writing and coding the post for TC. These five were my winners but there were a lot of things to discuss.


*Lohengrin Mono Challenge in Lohengrin on Disc*

If you don't have anything to say or make comments about, or I'm simply posting in the wrong thread, please tell me. I've been feeling for months that I was wasting my time even more than posting the challenges in Current Listening. For once there were a lot of recording and singing issues to talk about, but I don't know anymore if it is worth writing instead of a brief comment like in the Dutchman thread. If I write way less, I may spend more time working on projects that I am less passionate about but are more important than writing about Lohengrin recordings.


----------



## Barbebleu

Granate said:


> I don't know if I'm posting in the wrong threads or when the party is over and no one is inside and everything has been discussed. I wrote my results of my Lohengrin Episode for the Wagner Mono Challenge. Even having all the reviews done, I spent two hours writing and coding the post for TC. These five were my winners but there were a lot of things to discuss.
> 
> 
> *Lohengrin Mono Challenge in Lohengrin on Disc*
> 
> If you don't have anything to say or make comments about, or I'm simply posting in the wrong thread, please tell me. I've been feeling for months that I was wasting my time even more than posting the challenges in Current Listening. For once there were a lot of recording and singing issues to talk about, but I don't know anymore if it is worth writing instead of a brief comment like in the Dutchman thread. If I write way less, I may spend more time working on projects that I am less passionate about but are more important than writing about Lohengrin recordings.


I think the problem is that a lot of us have not heard these recordings recently and have difficulty recalling enough detail to meaningfully respond. For myself I haven't listened to any of the Lohengrins in your mono challenge for about ten years. I'm not sure I have the time to do so at the moment. I still appreciate your efforts and always take the time to read your posts. I have even been prompted to go back and have a dip into some of your recommendations. I'm sorry you feel under appreciated but a lack of response doesn't necessarily mean a lack of interest. I look forward to reading your Tristan report having just bought three recently!


----------



## Granate

Barbebleu said:


> I think the problem is that a lot of us have not heard these recordings recently and have difficulty recalling enough detail to meaningfully respond. For myself I haven't listened to any of the Lohengrins in your mono challenge for about ten years. I'm not sure I have the time to do so at the moment.


Thank you Barbebleu. Your first sentence is true. I don't usually remember that many of the recordings reviewed are rarely listened to by other members. I did expect more thoughts about favourites like Lohegrin Matacic or Holländer Sawallisch in Bayreuth 1959, two recordings that I didn't like as much as many other members here.

I should apologise for what I just wrote. I do expect a greater deal of discussion about recordings because it's the only thing I know, instead of musical theory or reading Wagner books. I feel I have the syndrome that hpowders describes in his criticisms to the "like" button. When I posted in Current Listening, I didn't have a lot of replies either, but instead there were a lot of likes and the certainty that people were "seeing" what I just posted, probably not really reading. I have no clue of the reach of my Wagner posts outside there and it puts me down. I guess this tells how bad am I about phisical world relationships, when almost no one I know from there shares my passion for music or just drags me out of this mess to finally enjoy social life.


----------



## Barbebleu

Granate said:


> Thank you Barbebleu. Your first sentence is true. I don't usually remember that many of the recordings reviewed are rarely listened to by other members. I did expect more thoughts about favourites like Lohegrin Matacic or Holländer Sawallisch in Bayreuth 1959, two recordings that I didn't like as much as many other members here.
> 
> I should apologise for what I just wrote. I do expect a greater deal of discussion about recordings because it's the only thing I know, instead of musical theory or reading Wagner books. I feel I have the syndrome that hpowders describes in his criticisms to the "like" button. When I posted in Current Listening, I didn't have a lot of replies either, but instead there were a lot of likes and the certainty that people were "seeing" what I just posted, probably not really reading. I have no clue of the reach of my Wagner posts outside there and it puts me down. I guess this tells how bad am I about phisical world relationships, when almost no one I know from there shares my passion for music or just drags me out of this mess to finally enjoy social life.


I expect to be posting something, hopefully in the not too distant future, about the Kubelik Parsifal. I am listening to it as I follow the full score so I keep stopping every so often as I hear something that catches my ear that the score illuminates and I end up listening to another version for comparison. So far I'm very impressed with Kubelik's faithful approach to Wagner's instructions. Woodduck wrote a very nice review and with one or two exceptions I probably agree with his view, at least as far as Act 1 is concerned.


----------



## Johnmusic

silentio said:


> I used to be a fan of Varnay and Duck kinda talked me out of it. And I agree that when one gets to appreciate the like of Leider, Lubin and Flagstad, it is hard to listen to Varnay in Wagner's heroines anymore. However, I do enjoy her a great deal in dramatic mezzo roles like Ortrud and Kostelnička.
> 
> Off topic for a while, I am no fan of Nilsson either. I will acknowledge that she is rock solid, more secure than anyone else- including Flagstad in her prime, but I just can't digest that kind of cold, almost expressionless singing.
> 
> The only post-Flagstad Wagnerian sopranos who had both secure and expressive voice are IMO Gertrude Grob-Prandl,an awesome Brunnhilde in Siegfriend and Gotterdammerung under Moralt, and Linda Esther Gray, a great Isolde under Goodall:


I am a great fan of post-Flagstad Wagnerian sopranos who had both secure and expressive voice are IMO Gertrude Grob-Prandl,an awesome Brunnhilde in Siegfriend and Gotterdammerung under Moralt, and Linda Esther Gray, a great Isolde under Goodall:Iknow GG-P and will now try to hear Linda Esther Gray. I love Birgit Nilsson.


----------



## wkasimer

Barbebleu said:


> I think the problem is that a lot of us have not heard these recordings recently and have difficulty recalling enough detail to meaningfully respond. For myself I haven't listened to any of the Lohengrins in your mono challenge for about ten years. I'm not sure I have the time to do so at the moment. I still appreciate your efforts and always take the time to read your posts. I have even been prompted to go back and have a dip into some of your recommendations. I'm sorry you feel under appreciated but a lack of response doesn't necessarily mean a lack of interest. I look forward to reading your Tristan report having just bought three recently!


Amen to all of that. I certainly read and enjoy these comprehensive reviews, and hope to comment after I've dug out the recordings to remind myself what's good and what's not so good about them, rather than rely on memory.


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## Johnmusic

*Linda Esther Gray "Dich teure Halle" LIVE (Good not super-great IMO) Lacks real charge but there are other things of hers.





WAGNER TRISTAN UND ISOLDE GRAY REMEDIOS TOMLINSON PALMER BAILEY GOODALL 1981 LIVE (Complete)




*


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## Granate

Thank you for the answers. I admit this was the second time I was whining about the reply thing. But I failed to consider also that my circumstances can be way different to yours. That I now spend a lot of hours in front of a computer and I have a lot of time to listen to recordings that you may not be able to cope with it. Or because you may have kids, families, friends you spend time with. I hope that in the future this knowledge is useful for new members that ask about operatic or orchestral recordings and want guidance. I am being too impatient.










Through my third TUI recording with difficulties. I'm loving this Heger 43 in Berlin. Thrilling and with excellent sound for the age. In terms of interpretation I'm seeing it more questionable... and will depend on the other 17 contenders. For now this one beats the two Covent Garden 30s performances.


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## Granate

wkasimer said:


> ... I've dug out the recordings to remind myself what's good and what's not so good about them, rather than rely on memory.


Yeah, about that, I'm actually filing everything into text documents :lol:


----------



## Barbebleu

Granate said:


> Thank you for the answers. I admit this was the second time I was whining about the reply thing. But I failed to consider also that my circumstances can be way different to yours. That I now spend a lot of hours in front of a computer and I have a lot of time to listen to recordings that you may not be able to cope with it. Or because you may have kids, families, friends you spend time with. I hope that in the future this knowledge is useful for new members that ask about operatic or orchestral recordings and want guidance. I am being too impatient.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Through my third TUI recording with difficulties. I'm loving this Heger 43 in Berlin. Thrilling and with excellent sound for the age. In terms of interpretation I'm seeing it more questionable... and will depend on the other 17 contenders. For now this one beats the two Covent Garden 30s performances.


I have recently purchased the Heger. I hadn't intended to listen to it any time soon but I'll bump it up the list and listen to it when I've finished the Kubelik Parsifal. I will be following the score for this one too so it will take me a bit longer than usual to listen to it.


----------



## Ragnar

Granate I read and appreciate all your posts. Sometimes I go back and reread them a few times. So never feel that your efforts or opinions are wasted. I wish I had the time to listen as much as I could not long ago. I used to listen to at least one opera a day at work alone. No longer can. I also have a six month old at home that requires my attention. But like many other members here I value your opinion on different recordings and even get a few of your suggestions for my to listen to pile. I have that Keilberth Lohrehgrin but haven’t had time to listen to it. I also spent time with Kubelik Parsifal as well as my Tristan historical pile. Plus 49 Meistersinger. Just keep it up please it’s not wasted what you do.


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## Granate

Barbebleu said:


> I have recently purchased the Heger. I hadn't intended to listen to it any time soon but I'll bump it up the list and listen to it when I've finished the Kubelik Parsifal. I will be following the score for this one too so it will take me a bit longer than usual to listen to it.


I'm through Act III. Short remark: *keep it.* It's worth the listen.
I would buy it in a distant future in a new incarnation. However, I have been analising Max Lorenz to see if I agree with wkasimer. This performance is heart on sleeve, right in the guts, but sometimes in Act III at the expense of damaging the voice if the dramatic style is regular. I'm not going to debate if Lorenz's vocal training and technique was disastrous. But I don't end believing the tale of the context in the World War II and how could it affect his performance.


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## Granate

Halfway through the Tristan Und Isolde Episode in my Wagner mono Challenge.

*Reviewed:*
Reiner CG 36
Beecham CG 37
*Bodanzky Met 37*
Leinsdorf Met 41
*Heger SKB 43*
Knappertsbusch BaySO 50
Reiner Met 50
Kempe Met 55
Sabata Scala 51 _Unlistenable_
*Cluytens WStO 56*


----------



## Granate

wkasimer said:


> I own all of these, and have also owned the releases by the original owner (Decca or EMI). In almost every case, when I compared, I preferred Obert-Thorn's transfer. The differences were generally slight, but audible on careful listening. *The only exception is the Furtwangler Tristan, where I thought that they sounded different, but that I preferred the EMI by a slight margin.*



















I've just finished listening to the (complete) EMI ART release of Tristan und Isolde. Review coming soon after the whole Nilsson-Windgassen series. I just listened to the Prelude and Liebestod of Act III for the Naxos. The remaster is quite different. Naxos tries to give more layers to the orchestra and more surround experience than EMI, but the official wins for cleanness, also, voices sound clearer, but that is a slight opinion from excerpts.


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## Granate

Test for posting pictures. Please ignore.


----------



## Woodduck

Granate said:


> Test for posting pictures. Please ignore.


Too late. ...............


----------



## DarkAngel

DarkAngel said:


> Don't think I have lost my mind, but recently ordered this from Presto UK year end sale ($13),
> Schock never in the conversation of top wagner singers, but his Walther from 56 Kempe meister is perhaps my favorite so I checked into this......





> I've been listening to this one right now. It goes right above all the War Metropolitan recordings and probably above many Bayreuth ones. I don't know how can you improve the male cast.





> Klose was probably the outstanding Ortrud of her generation, Metternich is unjustly overlooked nowadays, and Frick is Frick. It would be interesting for them, at least.


Listen to this twice now, much better than I expected with really excellent sound for early 1950s live, entire cast is really fine quality overall and I actually prefer Schock to Windgassen's Lohengrin during this time period, I am a believer now this is a definite buy buy buy

I sense some reluctance by WD to fully endorse Schock and I understand that his operetta background would make one suspect, but his performance here and in 56 Kempe Meister are of very highest standards and I love his style and lyric soft voice is used to great effect when needed......


----------



## DarkAngel

Granate said:


> I've just finished listening to the (complete) EMI ART release of Tristan und Isolde. Review coming soon after the whole Nilsson-Windgassen series. I just listened to the Prelude and Liebestod of Act III for the Naxos. The remaster is quite different. Naxos tries to give more layers to the orchestra and more surround experience than EMI, but the official wins for cleanness, also, voices sound clearer, but that is a slight opinion from excerpts.


If you really like the 52 Furtwangler Tristan as many here do including myself, the Pristine XR remaster is a noticeable improvement over any other version in sound quality but the price is also higher, if you want the very best .....

As always there is a long extended sound sample to make up your own mind at website
https://www.pristineclassical.com/collections/composer-wagner/products/paco067


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## Granate

*What are your Wagner Historical wishes for 2018?*

Like:

Orfeo releases Knappertsbusch Parsifal in 1955
Walhall finds the Keilberth 1954 Ring on tape
Pristine remasters Karajan 1951 Meistersinger
Mine:
Warner Classics releases the Furtwängler 53 Ring from the SACD Japanese Remaster with standard retail price on CD.


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## Granate

I'm through my 22nd and last _Tristan und Isolde_ from the mono Challenge. I'll just advance that, from my three Tristan purchases in OperaDepot, only Mehta Roma 72 has satisfied me, while Böhm WPO 67 is quite ok, and the first Salzburg Tristan by Karajan (1972) was a disappointment (badly recorded).

I've already coded the credits of the 3 winners and 6! honourable mentions. Soon I'll write the text and post it on the TUI CD thread.
The other news is that, because I'd like to avoid paying a second month for the Pristine Classical Streaming service, I'm bringing forward _Parsifal_ to my next episode. _Meistersinger_ and the _Ring_ should be afterwards.


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## Barbebleu

Granate said:


> Like:
> 
> Orfeo releases Knappertsbusch Parsifal in 1955
> Walhall finds the Keilberth 1954 Ring on tape
> Pristine remasters Karajan 1951 Meistersinger
> Mine:
> Warner Classics releases the Furtwängler 53 Ring from the SACD Japanese Remaster with standard retail price on CD.


I concur absolutely with these wishes, in particular the '55 Parsifal!


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## Granate

First round of _Parsifal_ reviews finished
Tomorrow I start the Knappertsbusch _Parsifals_ (+ Krauss 53). Really excited because I haven't heard many wonders in the mono _Parsifals_ I've already reviewed, except for a remarkable studio recording conducted by Rudolf Moralt.

*Moralt WSO 48* (nominee for top 10)
*Gui RAI 50* (Yes, the Callas one. Act II is impressive. Her Kundry will not exist in two hundred years I bet).
*Stiedry Met 54* (Disappointing sound quality for the impressive cast, + the freshest Varnay Kundry)
*Boulez BFO 67* (Really good cast. The tape has a really flat sound so I do not enjoy it how I should)
*Leinsdorf Met 60* (Good sound and conducting. The rest is meh)
*Cluytens Scala 60* (Gorr and Kónya. The rest, meh)


----------



## Granate

Probably my two last purchases in Opera Depot. I thought I wasn't going to buy anything on sale. I hope USF doesn't disappoint me.


----------



## Barbebleu

Granate said:


> I hope USF doesn't disappoint me.


As Ortrud or Kundry or both? Happy new year Granate.


----------



## Granate

Barbebleu said:


> As Ortrud or Kundry or both? Happy new year Granate.


Mainly as Ortrud. Those two releases would maybe give me an accurate voice portrait of a prime Schröder-Feinen. Thinking about the rest of releases, I didn't see any gain in buying a Wagner ring. Kempe 63 has terrible sound, and Stein 70 and 71 still don't overwhelm my ears.

I'm currently through 1956 Bayreuth Parsifal. Ramón Vinay is my no-go in the title character.


----------



## Granate

Bayreuth round of Parsifal reviews finished.

I won't spoil the results of the challenge until I survey the next four recordings: two more with Jon Vickers, a Sawallisch performance from Rome and the studio recording by Reginald Goodall. I hope I don't die out of boredom.

Only one clue. I don't think a Knappertsbusch Parsifal collection is worth it, *especially this one:*










This Act II is a massive vocal disaster.


----------



## Barbebleu

Granate said:


> Bayreuth round of Parsifal reviews finished.
> 
> I won't spoil the results of the challenge until I survey the next four recordings: two more with Jon Vickers, a Sawallisch performance from Rome and the studio recording by Reginald Goodall. I hope I don't die out of boredom.
> 
> Only one clue. I don't think a Knappertsbusch Parsifal collection is worth it, *especially this one:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Act II is a massive vocal disaster.


Now you've piqued my interest. I feel obliged to listen to this Act 2 post haste!


----------



## wkasimer

Granate said:


> Bayreuth round of Parsifal reviews finished.
> 
> I won't spoil the results of the challenge until I survey the next four recordings: two more with Jon Vickers, a Sawallisch performance from Rome and the studio recording by Reginald Goodall. I hope I don't die out of boredom.
> 
> Only one clue. I don't think a Knappertsbusch Parsifal collection is worth it, *especially this one:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Act II is a massive vocal disaster.


I listened to some of this a few weeks ago, exclusively because I wanted to hear Fischer-Dieskau's Amfortas when he was in better vocal shape than he was for the Solti studio recording. To be honest, I don't think that I bothered to listen to Act 2...


----------



## Itullian

Any opinions on this one?
The sound is great.
The samples sound great!


----------



## Granate

^^

Although it can be compared to the Previous Knappertsbusch 1955 in Bayreuth, the conducting is generally brisker in tempo, which affects directly to Astrid Varnay's Senta. Her voice sounds quite bassy for the charachter, with that aged tone that I usually reject in her. The cast is ok. It couldn't compete with many of other mono recordings in my Höllander episode.


----------



## Granate

Anyone can confirm this here too? It's a general concern for Amazon reviewers:












Mjhood said:


> This is a bad issue! What it is supposed to be is the 1961 Bayreuth Meistersinger conducted by Josef Krips.
> What it is ---
> Act 1 Krips 1961 to end of "am stillen herd"
> Act 1 Cluytens Bayreuth 1957 to the end of the act
> Act 2 Cluytens Bayreuth 1957
> Act 3 1961 Krips.
> The sound of the 1957 material is inferior to the 1961.
> BEWARE!!!!
> How, in heavens name, MYTO expected to disguise Gustav Neidlinger's and Josef Greindl's voices singing the role of Hans Sachs is beyond me.
> There could hardly be two more different voices around at that time.
> The same goes for the tenor Windgassen sang in 1961, Geisler in 1957 , another two unmistakable voices.
> 
> This issue is pure and simple greed! Myto did not have a complete mastertape and decided to make it up with a different performance.
> This issue should be withdrawn until it is rectified.


I was just listening to the overture and noticed the noise tape, plus distortions. I have stopped listening to it, so the remaining ones are only Jochum 49 and Kempe BPO 57. Time to plug Pristine Classical Streaming and end this torture!


----------



## wkasimer

Granate said:


> Anyone can confirm this here too? It's a general concern for Amazon reviewers:


Mjhood is correct. I don't recall whether *all* of Act 2 is from 1957, because I didn't listen past the first few minutes to know that there was a problem.


----------



## Barbebleu

Granate said:


> Anyone can confirm this here too? It's a general concern for Amazon reviewers:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was just listening to the overture and noticed the noise tape, plus distortions. I have stopped listening to it, so the remaining ones are only Jochum 49 and Kempe BPO 57. Time to plug Pristine Classical Streaming and end this torture!


I have the Opera Depot '61 Bayreuth with Krips and it is all Krips, Greindl and Windgassen. Sound is acceptable if not wonderful.


----------



## Granate

My Wagner challenge will resume after I have updated my Hard drive in my labtop to SSD, so a bunch of hours without computer.

Edit: Postponed. SSD not recognised like many amazon users. I hope I can fix it next week.

I started the Pristine Classical Streaming service with the two last Meistersingers.










In Jochum 49, the sound is not a marvel, but it is extremely clean. Mind-blowing for 1949. Everyone subscribe.

The search engine is a bit faulty. Also, there are gaps between tracks (terrible for opera), and you need the window open and browse through the website in another tab.

*Important:* I found out how the service's payment works. I linked my card to the monthly subscription by Pay Pal. Then PC takes money every month. To cancel the subscription, we need to:


Go to _My Account_
Click _My Subscriptions_
Click _Manage subscription history_
Click _Cancel_
I would love to listen to this all night, and the singers are great without reaching Act II and Hotter's Sachs. However, these days I'm more eager for Klemperer Mozart, Beethoven & Haydn.


----------



## rw181383

I’m very late to this incredible thread. I’ve made it through page 55 and had to post anyway. What a treasure of information! I just recently posted in the “5 Favorite Rings” looking to add to what I can see now is a meager 27 Rings I own...lol!

I’ve been a Wagner nut since 1996 and it just doesn’t stop. The last time I went down the rabbit hole was in 2014 as I was preparing to attend Houston Grand Opera’s Ring Cycle (2014-17). Mainly because of this thread, here I go again!

Quick question and forgive me if this has been answered, is the 1963 Kna Parsifal only on Melodram? Besides 1955, it’s the only one I’m missing. 

Thanks to all!


----------



## Barbebleu

rw181383 said:


> I'm very late to this incredible thread. I've made it through page 55 and had to post anyway. What a treasure of information! I just recently posted in the "5 Favorite Rings" looking to add to what I can see now is a meager 27 Rings I own...lol!
> 
> I've been a Wagner nut since 1996 and it just doesn't stop. The last time I went down the rabbit hole was in 2014 as I was preparing to attend Houston Grand Opera's Ring Cycle (2014-17). Mainly because of this thread, here I go again!
> 
> Quick question and forgive me if this has been answered, is the 1963 Kna Parsifal only on Melodram? Besides 1955, it's the only one I'm missing.
> 
> Thanks to all!


You can get the '63 Kna Parsifal from Opera Depot. Cd or download. That's where I got mine. The '55 is the Holy Grail for Kna collectors. I'm about as likely to add it to my collection as I am of becoming Tzar of all the Russias!!


----------



## Granate

I'm listening to the first *Furtwängler Rheingold from La Scala*, and I started with Pristine Classical, which actually has a lot of advantages for great sound: no tape hiss, clear voices and resonating orchestra. In sound quality it's difficult to remaster further. I listened to the Overture and Rhinemaidens from Scene 1.

But then I plugged Spotify to listen to the same recording in the newest Archipel remaster. I don't know where I read that this Wagner Ring was unlistenable before the PC remaster. *This Archipel remaster is really far from unlistenable.* Many Bayreuth recordings in the fifties sound worse than this. Everything can be muddier, especially the voices, but within the range of mono sound, this one sounds perfectly for me! *I can live perfectly without Pristine Classical if this Archipel is here.* I can bear with it.



Itullian said:


> Listening to the '50 live Furty Rheingold from this excellent cycle in latest re master.
> Excellent.





DarkAngel said:


> I placed an order with Amazon sellers for Rheingold and Walkure, these two operas were very cheap compared to other two in this Ring set, sound samples were an improvement compared to other versions I have heard...





DarkAngel said:


> I listened to 1950 Furtwangler Rheingold and Walkure and these are the best sounding normally priced versions I have heard, I suspect Pristine XR would be another step up in quality but these are fine for me. This 50 Ring is good to get exposure to different singers than those that became standards at Bayreuth during 1950s and to hear Furtwangler's conducting style.
> 
> However just out of curiosity I compared the Bayreuth 1952 Myto Keilberth Walkure to 1950 Furtwangler La Scala Walkure and I much prefer the sound quality and singers of the 52 Keilberth.......all at bargain prices, nice! (own both I say)


Look what I found after some browsing...










On-print ASINs for browsing in Bookbutler:

R B002BFINF6
W B002BFINFG
S B002BFINFQ
G B002BFING0


----------



## rw181383

Finally finished going through this entire thread! And because of that, I had to compile what Wagner I have:

*Rienzi*

1974-76 - Hollreiser (EMI)

*Der Fliegende Holländer*

1950 - Reiner (Sony-MET Box)
1951 - Schüchter (Walhall)
1952 - Fricsay (DG Eloquence)
1955 - Keilberth (Testament)
1961 - Sawallisch (Decca - Bayreuth Box)
1966 - Sawallisch (Living Stage)
1968 - Klemperer (Living Stage)
1976 - Solti (Decca)
1991 - Dohnanyi (Decca)
1994 - Levine (Sony)

*Tannhäuser*

1944 - Breisach (Gebhardt)
1954 - Keilberth (Archipel)
1954 - Szell (Sony-MET Box)
1957 - Rodzinsky (Living Stage)
1962 - Sawallisch (Decca-Bayreuth Box)
1970 - Solti (Decca)
1985 - Haitink (Warner Classics)
1988 - Sinopoli (DG)

*Lohengrin*

1940 - Leinsdorf (History-Wagnermania Box)
1943 - Leinsdorf (Sony-MET Box)
1954 - Jochum (Archipel)
1962 - Sawallisch (Decca-Bayreuth Box)
1985-86 - Solti (Decca)

*Der Ring des Nibelungen (complete)*

1935-37 - Bodanzky (Archipel/Naxos/Guild/Sony-MET Box)
1949 - Moralt (Gebhardt)
1950 - Furtwängler (SWF)
1951 - Stiedry (Gebhardt)
1952 - Keilberth (Andromeda)
1953 - Furtwängler (Gebhardt)
1953 - Keilberth (Archipel)
1953 - Krauss (Opera d'Or/Archipel)
1955 - Keilberth (Testament)
1956 - Knappertsbusch (Music & Arts)
1957 - Kempe (Testament)
1958-65 - Solti (Decca)
1960 - Kempe (Myto)
1962 - Kempe (Myto)
1966-67 - Böhm (Philips/Decca -Bayreuth Box)
1966-70 - Karajan (DG)
1968 - Swarowsky (Profil)
1972 - Suitner (premiereopera.net)
1973-77 - Goodall (Chandos)
1980 - Boulez (Philips-DVD)
1980-83 - Janowski (RCA)
1984-87 - Asahina (Fontec)
1987-89 - Levine (DG)
1991-92 - Barenboim (Teldec)
1993-95 - Neuhold (Brilliant Classics)
2013 - Fisch (Avie)
2014 - K. Petrenko (premiereopera.net)

*Der Ring des Nibelungen (individual operas)*

*Das Rheingold*

1947 - Kleiber (Gebhardt)
1948 - Zillig (Cantus Classics)
1951 - Karajan (Myto/Walhall)
2002 - Zagrosek (TDK-DVD)
2005 - Haenchen (Etcetera)
2006 - Fisch (Melba)
2015 - Zweden (Naxos)

*Die Walküre*

1940 - Kleiber (Gebhardt)
1940 - Leinsdorf (Guild/Sony-MET Box/Pristine)
1941 - Leinsdorf (Naxos)
1948 - Zillig (Cantus Classics)
1951 - Denzler (Gebhardt)
1954 - Furtwängler (EMI)
1954 - Keilberth (Archipel)
1955 - Keilberth (Walhall)
1957 - Mitropoulos (Living Stage)
1961 - Solti (Testament)
1962 - Leinsdorf (Decca)
1992 - Barenboim (Warner Classics-DVD)
2011-12 - Gergiev (Mariinsky)

*Siegfried*

1951 - Karajan (Myto)

*Götterdämmerung*

1947 - Kleiber (Gebhardt)
1955 - Keilberth (Testament)
1991 - Haitink (EMI)

*Tristan und Isolde*

1936 - Reiner (Naxos)
1937 - Beecham (Immortal Performances/Grammofono 2000)
1938 - Bodanzky (Sony-MET Box)
1943 - Busch (Gebhardt)
1943 - Leinsdorf (Naxos)
1952 - Karajan (Walhall/Orfeo)
1953 - Jochum (Archipel)
1955 - Kempe (Walhall)
1960 - Solti (Decca)
1966 - Böhm (DG/Decca-Bayreuth Box)
1978 - C. Kleiber (Myto)
1995 - Barenboim (Teldec)
2005 - Pappano (EMI)

*Die Meistersinger*

1937 - Toscanini (History - Wagnermania Box)
1951 - Kempe (Gebhardt)
1953 - Reiner (Sony-MET Box)
1956 - Kempe (EMI)
1974 - Varviso (Decca-Bayreuth Box)
1975 - Solti (Decca)
1995 - Solti (Decca)

*Parsifal*

1949 - R. Kraus (Gebhardt)
1951 - Knappertsbusch (Teldec/Naxos/History/Documents)
1952 - Knappertsbusch (Archipel)
1953 - Krauss (Archipel)
1954 - Knappertsbusch (Archipel)
1956 - Knappertsbusch (Walhall)
1957 - Knappertsbusch (Walhall)
1958 - Knappertsbusch (Andromeda)
1959 - Knappertsbusch (Walhall)
1960 - Knappertsbusch (Myto)
1961 - Knappertsbusch (Myto)
1962 - Knappertsbusch (Philips)
1964 - Knappertsbusch (Orfeo)
1972 - Solti (Decca)
1975 - Kegel (Berlin Classics)
1980 - Kubelik (Arts Music)
1981 - A. Jordan (Erato)
1985 - Levine (Decca-Bayreuth Box)
1991 - Barenboim (Teldec)
1992 - Levine (DG-DVD)
2001 - Conlon (House of Opera)
2005 - Thielemann (DG)
2009 - Gergiev (Mariinsky)
2013 - Gatti (Sony-DVD)

After going through this thread I now realize how much I'm missing!

On order:

Ring - Kna - 1957 (Walhall)
Ring - Kna - 1958 (Walhall)

Wishlist:

Dutchman - Kna - 1955
Tannhauser - ?
Lohengrin - Kna - 1963
Ring - Karajan - 1967-70 (Salzburg)
Ring - Krauss - 1953 (Pristine)
Ring - Furtwängler - 1950 (Pristine)
Ring - Furtwängler - 1953 (Pristine)
Ring - Stein - 1971
Ring - Boulez - 1977
Ring - Kempe - 1961
Ring - Solti - 1983
Tristan - Heger - 1943
Tristan - Furtwängler - 1952 (I can't believe I never bought this!)
Tristan - Böhm - 1960 (Pristine)
Meistersinger - Abendroth - 1943
Meistersinger - Kempe - 1955 (Pristine)
Meistersinger - Kna - 1960
Parsifal - Kna - 1963
Parsifal - Krauss - 1953 (Pristine)
Parsifal - Karajan (DG)
Parsifal - I want so many more!!

Any big holes in my collection, besides the 1952 Furt Tristan? Suggestions?

Thanks to all for the recommendations, reviews, books, videos, etc.!

I'm going down the rabbit hole again...


----------



## wkasimer

rw181383 said:


> Finally finished going through this entire thread! And because of that, I had to compile what Wagner I have:
> 
> *Rienzi*
> 
> 1974-76 - Hollreiser (EMI)
> 
> *Der Fliegende Holländer*
> 
> 1950 - Reiner (Sony-MET Box)
> 1951 - Schüchter (Walhall)
> 1952 - Fricsay (DG Eloquence)
> 1955 - Keilberth (Testament)
> 1961 - Sawallisch (Decca - Bayreuth Box)
> 1966 - Sawallisch (Living Stage)
> 1968 - Klemperer (Living Stage)
> 1976 - Solti (Decca)
> 1991 - Dohnanyi (Decca)
> 1994 - Levine (Sony)
> 
> *Tannhäuser*
> 
> 1944 - Breisach (Gebhardt)
> 1954 - Keilberth (Archipel)
> 1954 - Szell (Sony-MET Box)
> 1957 - Rodzinsky (Living Stage)
> 1962 - Sawallisch (Decca-Bayreuth Box)
> 1970 - Solti (Decca)
> 1985 - Haitink (Warner Classics)
> 1988 - Sinopoli (DG)
> 
> *Lohengrin*
> 
> 1940 - Leinsdorf (History-Wagnermania Box)
> 1943 - Leinsdorf (Sony-MET Box)
> 1954 - Jochum (Archipel)
> 1962 - Sawallisch (Decca-Bayreuth Box)
> 1985-86 - Solti (Decca)
> 
> *Der Ring des Nibelungen (complete)*
> 
> 1935-37 - Bodanzky (Archipel/Naxos/Guild/Sony-MET Box)
> 1949 - Moralt (Gebhardt)
> 1950 - Furtwängler (SWF)
> 1951 - Stiedry (Gebhardt)
> 1952 - Keilberth (Andromeda)
> 1953 - Furtwängler (Gebhardt)
> 1953 - Keilberth (Archipel)
> 1953 - Krauss (Opera d'Or/Archipel)
> 1955 - Keilberth (Testament)
> 1956 - Knappertsbusch (Music & Arts)
> 1957 - Kempe (Testament)
> 1958-65 - Solti (Decca)
> 1960 - Kempe (Myto)
> 1962 - Kempe (Myto)
> 1966-67 - Böhm (Philips/Decca -Bayreuth Box)
> 1966-70 - Karajan (DG)
> 1968 - Swarowsky (Profil)
> 1972 - Suitner (premiereopera.net)
> 1973-77 - Goodall (Chandos)
> 1980 - Boulez (Philips-DVD)
> 1980-83 - Janowski (RCA)
> 1984-87 - Asahina (Fontec)
> 1987-89 - Levine (DG)
> 1991-92 - Barenboim (Teldec)
> 1993-95 - Neuhold (Brilliant Classics)
> 2013 - Fisch (Avie)
> 2014 - K. Petrenko (premiereopera.net)
> 
> *Der Ring des Nibelungen (individual operas)*
> 
> *Das Rheingold*
> 
> 1947 - Kleiber (Gebhardt)
> 1948 - Zillig (Cantus Classics)
> 1951 - Karajan (Myto/Walhall)
> 2002 - Zagrosek (TDK-DVD)
> 2005 - Haenchen (Etcetera)
> 2006 - Fisch (Melba)
> 2015 - Zweden (Naxos)
> 
> *Die Walküre*
> 
> 1940 - Kleiber (Gebhardt)
> 1940 - Leinsdorf (Guild/Sony-MET Box/Pristine)
> 1941 - Leinsdorf (Naxos)
> 1948 - Zillig (Cantus Classics)
> 1951 - Denzler (Gebhardt)
> 1954 - Furtwängler (EMI)
> 1954 - Keilberth (Archipel)
> 1955 - Keilberth (Walhall)
> 1957 - Mitropoulos (Living Stage)
> 1961 - Solti (Testament)
> 1962 - Leinsdorf (Decca)
> 1992 - Barenboim (Warner Classics-DVD)
> 2011-12 - Gergiev (Mariinsky)
> 
> *Siegfried*
> 
> 1951 - Karajan (Myto)
> 
> *Götterdämmerung*
> 
> 1947 - Kleiber (Gebhardt)
> 1955 - Keilberth (Testament)
> 1991 - Haitink (EMI)
> 
> *Tristan und Isolde*
> 
> 1936 - Reiner (Naxos)
> 1937 - Beecham (Immortal Performances/Grammofono 2000)
> 1938 - Bodanzky (Sony-MET Box)
> 1943 - Busch (Gebhardt)
> 1943 - Leinsdorf (Naxos)
> 1952 - Karajan (Walhall/Orfeo)
> 1953 - Jochum (Archipel)
> 1955 - Kempe (Walhall)
> 1960 - Solti (Decca)
> 1966 - Böhm (DG/Decca-Bayreuth Box)
> 1978 - C. Kleiber (Myto)
> 1995 - Barenboim (Teldec)
> 2005 - Pappano (EMI)
> 
> *Die Meistersinger*
> 
> 1937 - Toscanini (History - Wagnermania Box)
> 1951 - Kempe (Gebhardt)
> 1953 - Reiner (Sony-MET Box)
> 1956 - Kempe (EMI)
> 1974 - Varviso (Decca-Bayreuth Box)
> 1975 - Solti (Decca)
> 1995 - Solti (Decca)
> 
> *Parsifal*
> 
> 1949 - R. Kraus (Gebhardt)
> 1951 - Knappertsbusch (Teldec/Naxos/History/Documents)
> 1952 - Knappertsbusch (Archipel)
> 1953 - Krauss (Archipel)
> 1954 - Knappertsbusch (Archipel)
> 1956 - Knappertsbusch (Walhall)
> 1957 - Knappertsbusch (Walhall)
> 1958 - Knappertsbusch (Andromeda)
> 1959 - Knappertsbusch (Walhall)
> 1960 - Knappertsbusch (Myto)
> 1961 - Knappertsbusch (Myto)
> 1962 - Knappertsbusch (Philips)
> 1964 - Knappertsbusch (Orfeo)
> 1972 - Solti (Decca)
> 1975 - Kegel (Berlin Classics)
> 1980 - Kubelik (Arts Music)
> 1981 - A. Jordan (Erato)
> 1985 - Levine (Decca-Bayreuth Box)
> 1991 - Barenboim (Teldec)
> 1992 - Levine (DG-DVD)
> 2001 - Conlon (House of Opera)
> 2005 - Thielemann (DG)
> 2009 - Gergiev (Mariinsky)
> 2013 - Gatti (Sony-DVD)
> 
> After going through this thread I now realize how much I'm missing!
> 
> On order:
> 
> Ring - Kna - 1957 (Walhall)
> Ring - Kna - 1958 (Walhall)
> 
> Wishlist:
> 
> Dutchman - Kna - 1955
> Tannhauser - ?
> Lohengrin - Kna - 1963
> Ring - Karajan - 1967-70 (Salzburg)
> Ring - Krauss - 1953 (Pristine)
> Ring - Furtwängler - 1950 (Pristine)
> Ring - Furtwängler - 1953 (Pristine)
> Ring - Stein - 1971
> Ring - Boulez - 1977
> Ring - Kempe - 1961
> Ring - Solti - 1983
> Tristan - Heger - 1943
> Tristan - Furtwängler - 1952 (I can't believe I never bought this!)
> Tristan - Böhm - 1960 (Pristine)
> Meistersinger - Abendroth - 1943
> Meistersinger - Kempe - 1955 (Pristine)
> Meistersinger - Kna - 1960
> Parsifal - Kna - 1963
> Parsifal - Krauss - 1953 (Pristine)
> Parsifal - Karajan (DG)
> Parsifal - I want so many more!!
> 
> Any big holes in my collection, besides the 1952 Furt Tristan? Suggestions?
> 
> Thanks to all for the recommendations, reviews, books, videos, etc.!
> 
> I'm going down the rabbit hole again...


It's quite a collection, but I see a few holes:

Dutchman: One of the live performances with George London and Leonie Rysanek (not the studio version)

Tannhauser: A recording with Melchior in the title role.

Lohengrin: Bayreuth 1953, Abbado (DG). And you should try to hear the Colin Davis recording on RCA, solely for Ben Heppner in the title role.

Ring: I think that you've got that covered pretty well, other than the Furtwangler recordings.

Tristan: Ditto, other than the Furtwangler.

Meistersinger: Kubelik is essential, I think, and you should probably get the 1949 Munich recording with Hotter. Agree with the 1960 and 1943 Bayreuth performances, both terrific.

Parsifal: You're in good shape, but you should hear the Karajan DG.


----------



## DarkAngel

> After going through this thread I now realize how much I'm missing!


ha ha.......it's too late to turn back



> Tristan - Furtwängler - 1952 (I can't believe I never bought this!)


Pristine XR for best sound naturally

Now that you have Prisitne XR and operadepot as sources there are many more buying opportunities to add works and upgrade sound to best available

RW I am really surprised at the small number of Lohengrin sets you have, what about the famous 64 Kempe studio with WP orchestra? Too much great music and singing to miss out of all the many great recording available, I suspect you are avoiding them for a reason....?????








64 Kempe studio








59 Bayreuth (with Konya)








58 Bayreuth (with Konya)















Etc etc


----------



## Granate

rw181383 said:


> Finally finished going through this entire thread! And because of that, I had to compile what Wagner I have...


Some comments

I've tried the Pristine Furtwängler Rome 53 Rheingold. Very little improvement. Keep the Gebhardt. 
Pristine for Furtwängler Scala 50 Ring is really good, although the new Archipel remaster is not too far from Andrew Rose. 
Instead, put as a priority the Krauss Bayreuth Ring in Pristine. The Rheingold has phenomenal sound.
Think twice about the Karajan Parsifal. You may love or hate it. Stream first.

Also, try:

Cluytens Vienna 56 for _Tristan und Isolde_
Cluytens Bayreuth 58 for _Lohengrin_ & _Meistersinger_ (if you mind divisive Otto Wiener & decent sound quality)
Sawallisch Bayreuth 61 for _Tannhäuser_ (Myto/Orfeo, better performance than Philips + DFD & VDLA)
Barenboim SKB 2001 for _Tannhäuser_ (Can't believe you never heard this).
Two _Parsifals_ from Horst Stein in 1976: Opéra de Paris (pristine sound, continuity & great conducting) + Bayreuth (best singing I can think of, but too many cuts & annoying pace) Available in OperaDepot.
Karajan Live Salzburg 76 for _Lohengrin_ (my favourite Stereo with the studio recording)
Dont' forget the Boulez Bayreuth 76-77 _Rings_.


----------



## rw181383

Thank you for the responses!!

*wkasimer*, regarding your suggestions:

_"It's quite a collection, but I see a few holes:

Dutchman: One of the live performances with George London and Leonie Rysanek (not the studio version)._ *Will do!*

_Tannhauser: A recording with Melchior in the title role._ *The Breisach that is on my list has Melchior/Lawrence/Varnay/Kipnis. Do you recommend a specific performance? For now I've added the 1941 Leinsdorf.*

_Lohengrin: Bayreuth 1953, Abbado (DG). And you should try to hear the Colin Davis recording on RCA, solely for Ben Heppner in the title role._ *Noted!*

_Ring: I think that you've got that covered pretty well, other than the Furtwangler recordings.

Tristan: Ditto, other than the Furtwangler.

Meistersinger: Kubelik is essential, I think, and you should probably get the 1949 Munich recording with Hotter. Agree with the 1960 and 1943 Bayreuth performances, both terrific._ *I meant to add the Kubelik to my wish list. Added the 1949 Munich.*

_Parsifal: You're in good shape, but you should hear the Karajan DG."_

*DA:*

_"RW I am really surprised at the small number of Lohengrin sets you have, what about the famous 64 Kempe studio with WP orchestra? Too much great music and singing to miss out of all the many great recording available, I suspect you are avoiding them for a reason....?????"_ *I do have the 64 Kempe-I forgot to list it! And I will add your other suggestions*

*Granate:*

_Some comments

I've tried the Pristine Furtwängler Rome 53 Rheingold. Very little improvement. Keep the Gebhardt. 
Pristine for Furtwängler Scala 50 Ring is really good, although the new Archipel remaster is not too far from Andrew Rose. 
Instead, put as a priority the Krauss Bayreuth Ring in Pristine. The Rheingold has phenomenal sound.
Think twice about the Karajan Parsifal. You may love or hate it. Stream first._ *Thank you for the suggestions! I'll move up the Krauss Pristine transfer on my list.*

_Also, try:
Cluytens Vienna 56 for Tristan und Isolde
Cluytens Bayreuth 58 for Lohengrin & Meistersinger (if you mind divisive Otto Wiener & decent sound quality)
Sawallisch Bayreuth 61 for Tannhäuser (Myto/Orfeo, better performance than Philips + DFD & VDLA)
Barenboim SKB 2001 for Tannhäuser (Can't believe you never heard this).
Two Parsifals from Horst Stein in 1976: Opéra de Paris (pristine sound, continuity & great conducting) + Bayreuth (best singing I can think of, but too many cuts & annoying pace) Available in OperaDepot.
Karajan Live Salzburg 76 for Lohengrin (my favourite Stereo with the studio recording)
Dont' forget the Boulez Bayreuth 76-77 Rings._ *Excellent, excellent, excellent!! Thank you for the suggestions and comments.*

I mistakenly left off two recordings from my collection in the above list (Post#3367):

Lohengrin - 1964 - Kempe (EMI)
Das Rheingold - 1962 - Sawallisch (Living Stage)

And thanks to the above suggestions...*My new wish list:*

Dutchman - 1955 - Kna
Dutchman - 1959 - Sawallisch (London/Rysanek)
Dutchman - 1960 - Schippers (Pristine - with London/Rysanek)
Tannhäuser - 1941 - Leinsdorf (Pristine - with Melchior)
Tannhauser - 1961 - Sawallisch (Bayreuth)
Tannhauser - 2001 - Barenboim
Lohengrin - 1953 - Keilberth (Bayreuth)
Lohengrin - 1958 - Cluytens (Walhall)
Lohengrin - 1959 - Matacic (Orfeo)
Lohengrin - 1963 - Kna 
Lohengrin - 1965 - Böhm (Orfeo)
Lohengrin - 1976 - Karajan (Salzburg)
Lohengrin - 1991-92 - Abbado (DG)
Lohengrin - 1994 - Davis (RCA)
Ring - 1950 - Furtwängler (Pristine)
Ring - 1953 - Krauss (Pristine)
Ring - 1961 - Kempe (Orfeo)
Ring - 1967-70 - Karajan (Salzburg)
Ring - 1971 - Stein
Ring - 1976 - Boulez
Ring - 1977 - Boulez
Ring - 1983 - Solti 
Ring - 2008 - Thielemann (Bayreuth)
Tristan - 1943 - Heger
Tristan - 1952 - Furtwängler (Pristine)
Tristan - 1956 - Cluytens (Vienna)
Tristan - 1960 - Böhm (Pristine)
Meistersinger - 1943 - Abendroth
Meistersinger - 1949 - Jochum
Meistersinger - 1955 - Kempe (Pristine)
Meistersinger - 1958 - Cluytens
Meistersinger - 1960 - Kna
Meistersinger - 1967 - Kubelik
Parsifal - 1953 - Krauss (Pristine)
Parsifal - 1963 - Kna 
Parsifal - 1976 - Stein (Bayreuth)
Parsifal - 1976 - Stein (Paris)
Parsifal - 1979-80 - Karajan (DG)


----------



## amfortas

rw181383 said:


> The Breisach that is on my list has Melchior/Lawrence/Varnay/Kipnis. Do you recommend a specific performance? For now I've added the 1941 Leinsdorf.


For a Melchior _Tannhäuser_, your best bets are either the 1941 Leinsdorf (with Flagstad as Elisabeth; available on Pristine Classical) or the 1942 Szell (with Traubel as Elisabeth; available on Immortal Performances). You'll get competing claims about which recording is superior; fortunately, you can listen to the complete Leinsdorf and excerpts from the Szell on YouTube.


----------



## wkasimer

amfortas said:


> For a Melchior _Tannhäuser_, your best bets are either the 1941 Leinsdorf (with Flagstad as Elisabeth; available on Pristine Classical) or the 1942 Szell (with Traubel as Elisabeth; available on Immortal Performances). You'll get competing claims about which recording is superior; fortunately, you can listen to the complete Leinsdorf and excerpts from the Szell on YouTube.


If you can find it, there's also a 1936 Met performance with Melchior, Flagstad, and Tibbett. The problem is that the Venus isn't very good, so I'd probably opt for the 1941 if it's available.


----------



## amfortas

wkasimer said:


> If you can find it, there's also a 1936 Met performance with Melchior, Flagstad, and Tibbett.



Find it, and afford it!


----------



## gardibolt

That 1949 Jochum/Hotter Meistersinger from Pristine is really terrific. I listened to it yesterday morning and thought it's one of the best ones in my collection.


----------



## rw181383

amfortas and gardibolt, thank you for the suggestions! I have them on my wish list.


----------



## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> That *1949 Jochum/Hotter Meistersinger from Pristine *is really terrific. I listened to it yesterday morning and thought it's one of the best ones in my collection.


Makes the 56 Cluytens Meister (with Hotter in weak sound) almost useless now.........


----------



## gardibolt

DarkAngel said:


> Makes the 56 Cluytens Meister (with Hotter in weak sound) almost useless now.........


Indeed, there's no comparison.


----------



## wkasimer

DarkAngel said:


> Makes the 56 Cluytens Meister (with Hotter in weak sound) almost useless now.........


Except that Brouwenstijn and Windgassen are a lot better than Kupper and Treptow...


----------



## amfortas

wkasimer said:


> Except that Brouwenstijn and Windgassen are a lot better than Kupper and Treptow...


Someone needs to splice together a single "Dream _Meistersinger_," similar to Immortal Performances "Dream _Ring_."

Or maybe not . . .


----------



## Granate

*Wagner Challenge update - Going through the MONO Ring episodes*

Hi. I'm about to start the last recording of Das Rheingold in Mono. From the 13 Rings I was testing, I added the Kempe Covent Garden 1957 (Walhall) as soon as I saw Birgit Nilsson as Brünnhilde. I wouldn't have done it if the Knappertsbusch Rheingolds had impressed me a lot. That may say a lot about my opinion in some Bayreuth Rings (as a first impression).

The sound for the Walhall CD in Kempe 57 is not bad at all. There is enough tape hiss to blow your house's windows, but nothing I cannot bear with.

That counts then 14 Mono Rings. Also, I'm doing some research on sound for the various Furtwängler 53 Ring releases, probably a bit suspicious. PM for actual opinion.

My results would give new blood to this thread because for now I would be disagreeing with many, many of you, considering your "general" love for the Bayreuth Rings in the 50s by Keilberth and Knappertsbusch.

But because it's only the Rheingold, I won't publish inmediatly the results of the episode. Instead, I may wait until I complete Die Walküre or all the Rings. I need time to put the recordings into context.

The Stereo episodes for the Ring were a rollercoaster.

*Reminder of reviewed Rings:*

Bodanzky/Leinsdorf Met (Naxos)
Moralt WSO 49 (Myto)
Furtwängler Scala 50 (PC/Archipel)
Furtwängler RAI 53 (PC*)
Keilberth BFO 52 (Myto)
Keilberth BFO 53 (Membran)
Krauss BFO 53 (PC/OdO)
Knappertsbusch BFO 56 (Orfeo)
Knappertsbusch BFO 57 (Walhall)
Knappertsbusch BFO 58 (Walhall)
Kempe ROH CG 57 (Walhall)
Kempe BFO 60 (Myto)
Kempe BFO 61 (Orfeo)
Kempe BFO 62 (Myto)
Individual Operas

*Walküre*

Furtwängler WPO 54 (Naxos)
Breisach Met 46 (Myto)
Kempe BFO 60 Nilsson (OD)
*Götterdämmerung*

Fjeldstad Nor 56 (Naxos)
Boulez BFO 77 (OD)


----------



## Granate

14 Wagner Rheingolds in 5 days. *How can I be so lazy!* 
I need to finish all the challenges and Fidelio before March 9th!


----------



## Bonetan

Granate said:


> 14 Wagner Rheingolds in 5 days. *How can I be so lazy!*
> I need to finish all the challenges and Fidelio before March 9th!


This listening spree you've been on belongs in the Guiness Books!!! Many thanks for your contributions Granate! I look forward to your every post


----------



## Barbebleu

Granate said:


> 14 Wagner Rheingolds in 5 days. *How can I be so lazy!*
> I need to finish all the challenges and Fidelio before March 9th!


I'm astonished that you're still sane! Well as sane as any Wagner listener can be!:lol: I'm as fanatical about Wagner's music as anyone but I couldn't listen to more than one version of any of the operas at a time and I would probably need to leaven it out with some Dylan, Jarrett, Mahler, Punch Brothers et al to retain any sense of perspective.


----------



## wkasimer

Anyone interested in historic Wagner singing might want to check out Classical Podcasts:

http://www.classicalpodcasts.com/

They're doing a survey of Wagnerian singers during the middle of the 20th century, opera by opera. They've finished Dutchman, and are in the middle of Tannhauser.


----------



## Granate

Zingo said:


> I absolutely agree on *Furtwängler* and *Krauss* as the really essential historical recordings to have in one's collection. The *Keilberth 1955* is mainly interesting as a document of the singers in much better sound than anywhere else - the *conducting isn't in the same league* as Furtwängler and Krauss (but then that goes for virtually any conductor). I can't share your enthusiasm for *Kna* though - I find his *slow approach deadly in Wagner,* I much prefer Krauss and Böhm. My recommendation for a first Ring recording would in fact be Böhm.


Browsing covers in Google, I found this old post in a brief old Wagner thread from 2013. DavidA seemed enthusiastic years ago enjoying Bayreuth 1952 and 1953 Rings.

I agree a lot with this post, taking into account my _Rheingold_ episode which I have almost finished writing.


----------



## wkasimer

wkasimer said:


> If you can find it, there's also a 1936 Met performance with Melchior, Flagstad, and Tibbett. The problem is that the Venus isn't very good, so I'd probably opt for the 1941 if it's available.


I spent a little time with both the 1936 and 1941 performances. Much as I love Tibbett, the sonics on the 1936 broadcast are a challenge, and the 1941 sounds substantially better. And it may be my imagination, but to my ears, Melchior sounds a bit more musically fastidious on the later recording under Leinsdorf's baton.


----------



## Barbebleu

Granate said:


> Browsing covers in Google, I found this old post in a brief old Wagner thread from 2013. DavidA seemed enthusiastic years ago enjoying Bayreuth 1952 and 1953 Rings.


Which thread was that Granate?


----------



## Granate

Barbebleu said:


> Which thread was that Granate?


*Old Wagner recordings.* Don't bother to resurrect it. It's exactly like HWR but earlier in 2013.


----------



## Granate

I've managed to find gardibolt's enormous contribution about the mistery of Siegfried Act I in Bayreuth 1953 in this thread. Because it's not the current topic here, but some still ask, I'll save the posts and mention them when I upload my results of the Siegfried episode in my Wagner challenge. I wish we could make those posts sticky because not every day we can contact with the Bavarian Radio for double check of their archive.



gardibolt said:


> I decided to get to the bottom of this and contacted Bavarian Radio directly about the mystery of the 1953 Siegfried Act I. *I am going to put the full information that I got into an article for publication,* but here are the relevant essentials straight from Bavarian Radio.


Or it could be easier... Did you post here a link to your article, gardibolt?


----------



## Granate

I'm listening to Furtwängler's Scala Walküre. Can any of you teach me about the vocal differences between Kirsten Flagstad & Birgit Nilsson?


----------



## rw181383

wkasimer said:


> I spent a little time with both the 1936 and 1941 performances. Much as I love Tibbett, the sonics on the 1936 broadcast are a challenge, and the 1941 sounds substantially better. And it may be my imagination, but to my ears, Melchior sounds a bit more musically fastidious on the later recording under Leinsdorf's baton.


Thank you for the update, wkasimer. I'll note it on my wish list. By the way, are you familiar with this recording:









The sound is not good, but I love Marjorie Lawrence. I'm wondering if there are alternate transfers? The only one I've found is:

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/richard-wagner-tannhaeuser/hnum/6034247


----------



## wkasimer

rw181383 said:


> Thank you for the update, wkasimer. I'll note it on my wish list. By the way, are you familiar with this recording:
> 
> View attachment 101153
> 
> 
> The sound is not good, but I love Marjorie Lawrence. I'm wondering if there are alternate transfers? The only one I've found is:
> 
> https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/richard-wagner-tannhaeuser/hnum/6034247


I've only heard bits and pieces (courtesy of Classical Podcasts, which I linked a couple of days ago). For me it's not essential, since I already have 1936 and 1941, and am not a fan of Astrid Varnay. Kipnis is past his best, too. Other than Lawrence, I'd be curious to hear Julius Huehn, an American bass-baritone with a fine voice. There's a 1940 broadcast of him as the Walkure Wotan (uncut), where he's pretty good. He should have had more of a career, but apparently once he returned from military service, his voice was pretty much gone - a pity.


----------



## wkasimer

Granate said:


> I'm listening to Furtwängler's Scala Walküre. Can any of you teach me about the vocal differences between Kirsten Flagstad & Birgit Nilsson?


If you've heard them, you'll know .

I only know both from records. Nilsson has an incredibly bright, piercing, brilliant sound with very little vibrato, which often makes her sound as though she's singing sharp (and sometimes she is). Flagstad has a fuller voice of a much more lyrical quality, and a much more vibrant lower range, without nearly so much brilliance or squillo, but her top notes were iffy by 1950. Nilsson's top notes were never iffy, even at the end of her career.


----------



## Granate

^^

I am hearing them and I cannot tell the difference! But that's because I have not studied vocal technique... Loving both portrayals of Brünnhilde though.

I'm now more worried about not rating at all the dramatic involvement of the singers in the operas. I don't listen with a libretto and I always ignore whether they are saying their words with the right tone for a drama. The Ring is in fact a Drama, not only an opera. For example, I recently read a "fool" description of the Ring's plot in an opera forum in Spanish. The poster in 2006 suddenly left jokes behind to dissect his favourite lines of the Walküre, like the Fricka/Wotan scene and the Brünnhilde/Sieglinde duet (when Wotan swears to end Siegmund's life for his honour in front of Fricka, and Hans Hotter chooses to whisper the line instead of singing it). That's what I usually skip. I'm not that hardcore listener, and that's a fair criticism for my opera challenges.


----------



## rw181383

wkasimer said:


> I've only heard bits and pieces (courtesy of Classical Podcasts, which I linked a couple of days ago). For me it's not essential, since I already have 1936 and 1941, and am not a fan of Astrid Varnay. Kipnis is past his best, too. Other than Lawrence, I'd be curious to hear Julius Huehn, an American bass-baritone with a fine voice. There's a 1940 broadcast of him as the Walkure Wotan (uncut), where he's pretty good. He should have had more of a career, but apparently once he returned from military service, his voice was pretty much gone - a pity.


Thank you! Yes, I just finished the 1940 broadcast on Pristine Classical and it's excellent. And, Lawrence is Sieglinde!


----------



## andreas chenier

Tannhäuser: i really enjoy Pflüger conducting in Leipzig in 1954. Both the orchestra, chorus and soloists are excellent, amazing performance and conducting, made me appreciate themes that does reach the surface in other recordings. I also like Wolfgang Sawallisch conducting bayreuth as well. A lot bigger names drawn to the recording such as Windgassen, Silja ++++ compared to Leipzig with Hans kramer, Ernst Gruber and Brunnhild Freidland. Both great recordings although i prefer Pflüger in Leipzig, really great and distinctive.

Tristan und Isolde: Definetaly Fürtwangler conducting Philharmonia. Kirsten Flagstad and Ludwig Suthaus are magnificent. Also i think Fürtwanglers "mysterious" and vague conducting is perfectly suited for this piece, really makes it levitating. Eugen Jochum conducting bayreuth in 53 is also a great performance, although no one exceedes Furtwängler on this piece according to me. 

Der Ring des Nibelungen: The two main favourites of mine are (of course) Solti conducting Vienna and Furtwangler conducting Alla Scala. Soltis recording techniques with Decca are outstanding, really something special. Furtwanglers conducting is again (with being my favourite Wagner conductor) amazing, special and distinctive way of interpretation while also being quite traditional.

Lohengrin: Sawallisch conducting Bayreuth. The orchestra plays with the magic and mystery Wagner intended with the themes. Also a lot of big names whos performance are on top, Franz Crass, Jess Thomas, Anja Silja and Astrid Varnay. Recently saw a really good video recording of Abbado in vienna, traditional setup (quite cool effects and props) and very nice performances in my opinion.


----------



## Granate

Welcome to this thread, andreas chernier. Really good choices. I also think that Furtwängler is a great Wagner conductor, and the Philips/Decca Bayreuth box is the best set to buy, despite having many favourites out of there.


----------



## andreas chenier

Granate said:


> Welcome to this thread, andreas chernier. Really good choices. I also think that Furtwängler is a great Wagner conductor, and the Philips/Decca Bayreuth box is the best set to buy, despite having many favourites out of there.


thanks, must say i like this thread. Yes i agree, Bayreuth has (suprisingly enough after all drawn the biggest conductors and singers of all time, really want to go there one day. 
mmm Wagner


----------



## Granate

Yeah, but we usually talk about mono recordings that are away from the big labels like EMI and Deutsche Grammophon or Decca. The 60s can have a pass for historical recordings, because they have many of the legends of the New Bayreuth golden era. What else do you know about Wagner in the 50s that you like?

Like the first Nilsson-Windgassen TUIs, or the Wieland Wagner Meistersingers from Bayreuth 1956...

Which Edition of the Furtwängler Scala Ring do you have. Do you like it more than the EMI edition?

Have you ever seen my custom covers for the Furtwängler Wagner Operas, or the Bayreuth Canon for Philips that you said you liked?

About going to Bayreuth, taking productions into account, you may be able to get a spare seat for next season Tristan or Meistersinger, because it seems that the 2016 Parsifal has earned good press, and Lohengrin debuts...


----------



## Itullian

All I can say is wow.


----------



## Granate

^^

Surely I'll try it in two or three days... I'm through *Bayreuth 52,* all the way to 1962.










And Milinkovic is Fricka... Fingers crossed. 1958 has *Vickers, Rysanek* and Gorr. Promising.


----------



## Itullian

Granate said:


> ^^
> 
> Surely I'll try it in two or three days... I'm through Bayreuth 52, all the way to 1962.
> 
> And Milinkovic is Fricka... Fingers crossed. 1958 has Vickers, Rysanek and Gorr. Promising.


'58 is great as well.


----------



## Bonetan

Where is our friend Woodduck?? I miss him!!!


----------



## rw181383

4 items from my wish list arriving this week:

Dutchman - 1960 - Schippers; London, Rysanek (Pristine Classical)
Ring - 1957 - Kna (Walhall)
Ring - 1958 - Kna (Walhall)
Meistersinger - 1943 - Abendroth (Myto)

Can’t wait!!!


----------



## Barbebleu

Bonetan said:


> Where is our friend Woodduck?? I miss him!!!


I can't obviously speak for him but I got the distinct impression that he was a bit disenchanted with the TC forum in general, hence his absence since 5th January. He may well return. Hopefully he will.


----------



## Johnmusic

*Some Wonderful singing*.

*Joan Sutherland - Jon Vickers - James Pease 
The Mastersingers of Nuremburg, Act III
Prize Song
Orchestra and Chorus of the Royal Opera House, Covent Garden
Conductor: Rafael Kubelik 5 May 1957




*

******************************************
Wagner - The Mastersingers of Nuremburg - Act III
Quintet
5 May 1957
Joan Sutherland - Jon Vickers - James Pease - Noreen Berry - John Lanigan
Orchestra and Chorus of the Royal Opera House, Covent Garden
Conductor: Rafael Kubelik




*


----------



## Granate

*Furtwängler Ring LP pictures (from fineday.co.jp & ebay) - Part I*


----------



## Granate

*Furtwängler Ring LP pictures (from fineday.co.jp & ebay) - Part II*










































Maybe in two or days I have finished all the 16 _Walküres_ of the Mono challenge. Then I may be able to post a shortlist of my favourites without any comment. From then I continue with Siegfried.

I've been curious about the original art of the 1972 Released Wagner Ring by Wilhelm Furtwängler, one of EMI's releases on their Wagner catalogue, recording the stereo Karajan _Tristan und Isolde_ the same year and having released a _Höllander, Lohengrin_ and _Meistersinger_ previously (Tännhauser was for Electrola). Always fascinated why didn't they succeed in recording a _Parsifal_ during the 60s or 70s.

The LPs above are from a complex, I think Japanese, edition. I found them in this link.


----------



## Granate

And here are other pictures of the Knappertsbusch Orfeo and the Keilberth Ring that I could find at another site. I don't have any comment about them yet. I only post these because we don't see often pictures of the packaging.


----------



## Granate

*Knappertsbusch Bayreuth 1957 Ring - Cetra LPs*

And finally, has anyone seen or owned these? I kind of want to make digital covers out of them.


----------



## Barbebleu

LP covers are wonderful. CD boxes just aren't the same and you always got good inserts with the LP boxes.


----------



## Granate

*Wagner Challenge update - MONO Ring shortlist after 1st half*



Granate said:


> *Rings on review:*
> 
> Bodanzky/Leinsdorf Met (Naxos)
> Moralt WSO 49 (Myto)
> Furtwängler Scala 50 (PC/Archipel)
> Furtwängler RAI 53 (PC*)
> Keilberth BFO 52 (Myto)
> Keilberth BFO 53 (Membran)
> Krauss BFO 53 (PC/OdO)
> Knappertsbusch BFO 56 (Orfeo)
> Knappertsbusch BFO 57 (Walhall)
> Knappertsbusch BFO 58 (Walhall)
> Kempe ROH CG 57 (Walhall)
> Kempe BFO 60 (Myto)
> Kempe BFO 61 (Orfeo)
> Kempe BFO 62 (Myto)
> Individual Operas
> 
> *Walküre*
> 
> Furtwängler WPO 54 (Naxos)
> Breisach Met 46 (Myto)
> Kempe BFO 60 Nilsson (OD)
> *Götterdämmerung*
> 
> Fjeldstad Nor 56 (Naxos)
> Boulez BFO 77 (OD)




































I think the list can only lose contenders more than winning...


----------



## DarkAngel

> _Individual Operas_
> 
> *Walküre
> 
> 
> Furtwängler WPO 54 (Naxos)
> Breisach Met 46 (Myto)
> Kempe BFO 60 Nilsson (OD)
> 
> Götterdämmerung
> 
> 
> Fjeldstad Nor 56 (Naxos)
> Boulez BFO 77 (OD)
> *


Not sure if you can find this on youtube or spotify but the 51 Knap Gotterdammerung is a very famous and highly regarded recording only found on testament label CD release.......

















act 3 of 51 Walkure Bayreuth


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> Not sure if you can find this on youtube or spotify but the 51 Knap Gotterdammerung is a very famous and highly regarded recording only found on testament label CD release.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> act 3 of 51 Walkure


Yes indeed, the '51 Götterdämmerung is a gem. Well worth hunting down.


----------



## Granate

Sorry, I decided a long time ago that I was not going to feature any part of the 1951 Ring in Bayreuth. The reason was the Keilberth rings in 1952 and 1953. In these years the sound was good and everyone was still in their prime.

And by the way, *I like and buy Rings that are complete.* The Knappertsbusch combinations can be really good because the concept is really similar. I would not really combine the Krauss and Keilberth Rings mainly because Brünnhilde switches singers.

The Kempe Bayreuth rings are a difficult choice, the ones that are on print, the Bayreuth 1962 Ring, are from a private recording by Grace Hoffmann. The sound is dodgy, and the performances, a roulette.


----------



## gardibolt

I wasn't aware that Orfeo had released the 1956 Knappertsbusch Ring. Interesting. As a result, I went to Orfeo's catalogue and as best I can tell these are their issues of Wagner from Bayreuth:

1952	Tristan und Isolde	Herbert von Karajan	C 603 033 D
1953	Der Ring des Nibelungen	Clemens Krauss	C 809 113 R
1955	Der Fliegende Holländer	Hans Knappertsbusch	C 692 092 I
1955	Tannhäuser	André Cluytens	C 643 043 D
1956	Der Ring des Nibelungen	Hans Knappertsbusch	C 660 513 Y
1959	Lohengrin	Lovro von Matacic	C 691 063 D
1960	Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg	Hans Knappertsbusch	C 917 154 L
1961	Der Ring des Nibelungen	Rudolf Kempe	C 928 613 Y
1961	Tannhäuser	Wolfgang Sawallisch	C 888 143 D
1964	Parsifal	Hans Knappertsbusch	C 690 074 L
1967	Lohengrin	Rudolf Kempe	C 850 113 D
1968	Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg	Karl Böhm	C 753 084 L


Anything I'm missing or that is out of print? Are all of these taken from Bavarian Radio's tapes, which if I'm not mistaken should make them the best quality releases (short of Pristine's reworkings)? It's hard to imagine the 1956 Knappertsbusch in better sound than the Walthall discs, but perhaps they lifted their version from Orfeo?


----------



## Bill H.

Granate said:


> Maybe in two or days I have finished all the 16 _Walküres_ of the Mono challenge. Then I may be able to post a shortlist of my favourites without any comment. From then I continue with Siegfried.
> 
> I've been curious about the original art of the 1972 Released Wagner Ring by Wilhelm Furtwängler, one of EMI's releases on their Wagner catalogue, recording the stereo Karajan _Tristan und Isolde_ the same year and having released a _Höllander, Lohengrin_ and _Meistersinger_ previously (Tännhauser was for Electrola). Always fascinated why didn't they succeed in recording a _Parsifal_ during the 60s or 70s.
> 
> The LPs above are from a complex, I think Japanese, edition. I found them in this link.


I have this set. Found it on Ebay for a very good price--I think it cost more to ship it, because it's so heavy.
It's on my long list of transfer projects. I'm sure the Pristine remastering is excellent, but they used the same LP release as the source material.


----------



## Barbebleu

Bill H. said:


> I have this set. Found it on Ebay for a very good price--I think it cost more to ship it, because it's so heavy.
> It's on my long list of transfer projects. I'm sure the Pristine remastering is excellent, but they used the same LP release as the source material.


It was my fourth vinyl Ring set after Solti, Karajan and Böhm. And my first "historic" one if it can be classed as such given that it was only about twenty or so years old when I bought it.


----------



## bz3

Ok Wagnerians, what is the one historical Tannhauser I need to hear? I am a person who only knows Solti and Sawallisch in this work.


----------



## DarkAngel

bz3 said:


> Ok Wagnerians, what is the one historical Tannhauser I need to hear? I am a person who only knows Solti and Sawallisch in this work.












https://www.pristineclassical.com/collections/artist-lauritz-melchior/products/paco130

Want another?


----------



## Granate

bz3 said:


> Ok Wagnerians, what is the one historical Tannhauser I need to hear? I am a person who only knows Solti and Sawallisch in this work.


My *Tännhauser episode* for the Wagner Mono Challenge. I really like these recordings but you may already know them. Read the comments for your amusement!


----------



## amfortas

DarkAngel said:


> https://www.pristineclassical.com/collections/artist-lauritz-melchior/products/paco130


This is the other leading Melchior _Tannhäuser_ contender. I've heard arguments on both sides.


----------



## Woodduck

amfortas said:


> This is the other leading Melchior _Tannhäuser_ contender. I've heard arguments on both sides.


Flagstad isn't ideal as Elisabeth, but Traubel is worse: the wrong sort of voice, too weighty/mezzoish, and flat on top. As I recall, she just barges through "Dich teure halle."


----------



## amfortas

Woodduck said:


> Flagstad isn't ideal as Elisabeth, but Traubel is worse: the wrong sort of voice, too weighty/mezzoish, and flat on top. *As I recall, she just barges through "Dich teure halle."*


Along the same lines, but a slightly different take:

"When Traubel finishes 'Dich, teure Halle' we can only exclaim (as the soprano must have) 'Phew!' The thrusting energy of Szell's accompaniment, its heady pace, is as astonishing as the precise articulation and dynamic variety are welcome. These are not exactly the qualities to complement Traubel's gifts, and one suspects that she is unwillingly swept along by Szell's autocratic beat." --Paul Jackson, _Saturday Afternoons at the Old Met: The Metropolitan Opera Broacasts, 1931 - 1950_.


----------



## Granate

Woodduck said:


> Flagstad isn't ideal as Elisabeth, but Traubel is worse: the wrong sort of voice, too weighty/mezzoish, and flat on top. As I recall, she just barges through "Dich teure halle."


_*Hombreeeeee!*_


----------



## DarkAngel

amfortas said:


> Along the same lines, but a slightly different take:
> 
> "When Traubel finishes 'Dich, teure Halle' we can only exclaim (as the soprano must have) 'Phew!' The thrusting energy of Szell's accompaniment, its heady pace, is as astonishing as the precise articulation and dynamic variety are welcome. These are not exactly the qualities to complement Traubel's gifts, and one suspects that she is unwillingly swept along by Szell's autocratic beat." --*Paul Jackson, Saturday Afternoons at the Old Met: The Metropolitan Opera Broacasts, 1931 - 1950*.


For new people to this discussion you must own the three Jackson MET books, wonderful photos and priceless discussions of singers and performances, large format 11 x 8 with 500-600 pages each.........Amazon USA used, buy buy buy








1931-50








1950-66 (R. Bing era)








1966-76 (new lincoln center complex)


----------



## amfortas

DarkAngel said:


> For new people to this discussion you must own the three Jackson MET books, wonderful photos and priceless discussions of singers and performances, large format 11 x 8 with 500-600 pages each.........Amazon USA used, buy buy buy


Thanks, DA, I wasn't even aware of the third volume. I've glommed onto the first two from my local university library, renewing them so many times they're practically a part of my permanent collection.


----------



## Woodduck

amfortas said:


> Along the same lines, but a slightly different take:
> 
> "When Traubel finishes 'Dich, teure Halle' we can only exclaim (as the soprano must have) 'Phew!' The thrusting energy of Szell's accompaniment, its heady pace, is as astonishing as the precise articulation and dynamic variety are welcome. These are not exactly the qualities to complement Traubel's gifts, and one suspects that she is unwillingly swept along by Szell's autocratic beat." --Paul Jackson, _Saturday Afternoons at the Old Met: The Metropolitan Opera Broacasts, 1931 - 1950_.


I do recall Szell's conducting as rather aggressive.


----------



## Barbebleu

Woodduck said:


> I do recall Szell's conducting as rather aggressive.


I like that Woodduck. Rather aggressive. Nicely understated.


----------



## gardibolt

Hey Ducky, welcome back. You were missed.


----------



## Granate

Wolfgang Windgassen, welcome to the Arrhythmic Club.

:lol:

Was this one supposed to be the better take instead of the Keilberth in the first round?


----------



## MBro

I'm certain it's been brought up in the previous ~200 pages of this thread, but I cannot heap enough praise on the Knappertsbusch Tristan. The duet alone is a sort of microcosm of it's merits. Braun and Treptow sing softly in a sort of portamento style that oozes intensity, and Kna brings some really interesting tempos (everyone's favorite topic) to the table. There's so much drive to it. For those who enjoyed Helena Braun's Isolde as much as I did, there is a lovely recording of her doing the Wesendonck Lieder. I'd highly recommend it.

On the topic of Knappertsbusch, would anybody like to make a strong argument towards either his 1957 or 1958 Ring? I've listened to the '56 one pretty comprehensively and would like to know if the others have any superior qualities or insights.

As far as Rings go, I have settled on the Keilberth '55 as my go-to. I'm not sure I understand those who think he's mediocre. It should be worth something that he manages to get such inspired performances out of his singers. I much prefer the vocal performances of the shared cast here than in Krauss's (Varnay's Brünnhilde here is my favorite interpretation of the role. Just listen to "war es so schmälich" and try not to be moved to your very core. Also, listen to her expression of sheer ecstasy in the build up to the Leb wohl and her anticipation of Siegfried near the end of act 1 of Götterdämmerung). What I like most about Keilberth is how he pulls off the really high-energy and rousing moments, like the second half of the Todesverkündigung, Brünnhilde's introduction of the Siegfried motive and Sieglinde's farewell (mind you, Varnay misses the mark SO HARD on this part in the Krauss recording), the forging scene (also flubbed terribly in the Krauss), the beginning of the Waltraute scene, etc. My biggest qualm with this recording is how AWFUL the brass sounds. It very well may be the limitations of the recording equipment, rather than the musicians, but it is incredibly distracting nonetheless.

I would also highly recommend both the Elmendorff and Knappertsbusch studio recordings of Walküre Act 1, and am wondering if anyone here has listened to Klemperer's recording of this act?

Lastly, I'd like to throw this Tristan out there.








I happened upon it almost by accident on spotify. Schmidt-Isserstedt was already on my radar, but I was ASTONISHED by the sound quality (from 1949!!!). Apparently it's a studio recording. I could not find any background info on it. If you are a fan of Max Lorenz, that alone is worth the price of admission, as this is hands-down the best recording quality you will ever find his voice in. Paula Baumann's Isolde is more than serviceable. In terms of historical German recordings of this opera, I definitely prefer the more exciting Heger recording from 1943 (also featuring Lorenz), but I'd be interested to hear thoughts from others who have heard this one.


----------



## Granate

MBro said:


> On the topic of Knappertsbusch, would anybody like to make a strong argument towards either his 1957 or 1958 Ring? I've listened to the '56 one pretty comprehensively and would like to know if the others have any superior qualities or insights.
> 
> As far as Rings go, I have settled on the Keilberth '55 as my go-to. I'm not sure I understand those who think he's mediocre. It should be worth something that he manages to get such inspired performances out of his singers.


Welcome to Talk Classical, MBro. I'm really glad to have read your post. Thank you for your comments on the three topics (Knappertsbusch TUI, Keilberth Ring 1955 vs Krauss Ring 1953 & Schmidt-Isserstedt TUI). Little has been said about them.

*Knappertsbusch TUI:* I really like Knappertsbusch here as the conductor, and the sound is good, but I first thought the two lovers were quite good; then I started to think the singing style was lightweight, and Treptöw quite thin in voice. I listened to it together with 21 more recordings in a row. It didn't stand high.

*Knappertsbusch Rings:* I'm currently doing challenges of Mono Rings. My problem for now is that every triumph of any of the Rings 1956-58 seems like an accident because one year may succeed in what others have failed miserably, and the slow conducting of Kna is to blame for. The line between seducing my ears and killing me of boredom is very thin. Also, I don't like Windgassen playing both Siegmund and Siegfried (1956). I think the sound is really good in the 1957 and 1958, and 1956 stands behind, usually duller than the 1953 Rings. It's too soon for me to comment on the quality of the casts of those Rings (rating now Siegfrieds)

*Keilberth Ring 55:* from what I recall, I may agree with you in that many mistakes in the Krauss ring are solved in Keilberth 1955, his best try at the helm. In that 1955, I like how solemn is the conducting compared to many competitors, especially the Solti Ring. I understand how this 50s ring is the favourite of everyone out of all the "historical recordings". However, I think I was very clever to have made a distinction between Stereo and Mono for my challenges. I tested (from Youtube) the Keilberth 1955 Ring in a challenge with all the main Stereo Rings. It stood firmly between my fifth or sixth favourite in the four episodes. But if I compared with casts from the rest of the years to Bayreuth 1955, I prefer the others. I do not have such a taste for Varnay and Hotter compared to singers like Nilsson, Altmeyer, G. Jones or Dernesch, and Stewart or McIntyre. Also, Keilberth 1955 has much worse sound quality than many other Stereo rings. For me it couldn't raise the mark of other 4 rings in stereo.

I never heard of the Schmidt-Isserstedt TUI, thank you.


----------



## Barbebleu

Remember of course that the Schmidt-Isserstedt Hamburg 1949 Tristan has cuts in Act 2 Sc. 2 & Act 3 Sc. 1.


----------



## rw181383

As it was suggested to me, I waited until Opera Depot has a sale to get a few Ring cycles. And it's 60% off!

I'm ordering the 1967-70 Karajan, 1971 Stein, and the 1977 Boulez.

https://operadepot.com/


----------



## SixFootScowl

Big half off sale on historical opera performances at Norbeck, Peters & Ford. Tons of Wagner in this list starting a little ways down. Not all on sale, but a lot are. The Sawallisch 1968 Ring is present but for Walkure and on sale for $9.95 each at half price. These sets are going for exorbitant prices on Amazon.

EDIT: I just ordered the 68 Sawallisch Roma Ring, Rheingold, Siegfried, and Gotterdammerung all for $33 USD Shipped! Now for the Walkure, but the cheapest I can find it (used!) is $49.36 USD.


----------



## DarkAngel

Fritz Kobus said:


> Big half off sale on historical opera performances at Norbeck, Peters & Ford. Tons of Wagner in this list starting a little ways down. Not all on sale, but a lot are. The Sawallisch 1968 Ring is present but for Walkure and on sale for $9.95 each at half price. These sets are going for exorbitant prices on Amazon.


Also free shipping over $49, that is big savings since Amazon is $4 per CD shipping............


----------



## DarkAngel

> On the topic of Knappertsbusch, would anybody like to make a strong argument towards either his 1957 or 1958 Ring? I've listened to the '56 one pretty comprehensively and would like to know if the others have any superior qualities or insights.


Hard to choose an absolute winner between the great 57 & 58 Knap Rings, the 57 has the very best sound quality I have heard of any of the mono 1950s Bayreuth Rings on latest Walhall remaster, excellent......











> As far as Rings go, I have settled on the Keilberth '55 as my go-to. I'm not sure I understand those who think he's mediocre. It should be worth something that he manages to get such inspired performances out of his singers. I much prefer the vocal performances of the shared cast here than in Krauss's (Varnay's Brünnhilde here is my favorite interpretation of the role. Just listen to "war es so schmälich" and try not to be moved to your very core.


I am with you 100% as far as Hotter/Varnay being the most emotionally expressive characterizations of the two great roles, that final act of Walkure is so vivid and inspired, great work......


----------



## Barbebleu

rw181383 said:


> As it was suggested to me, I waited until Opera Depot has a sale to get a few Ring cycles. And it's 60% off!
> 
> I'm ordering the 1967-70 Karajan, 1971 Stein, and the 1977 Boulez.
> 
> https://operadepot.com/


Good choices, particularly the Karajan. Much better live with virtually the same cast as his studio set.


----------



## rw181383

Fritz Kobus said:


> Big half off sale on historical opera performances at Norbeck, Peters & Ford. Tons of Wagner in this list starting a little ways down. Not all on sale, but a lot are. The Sawallisch 1968 Ring is present but for Walkure and on sale for $9.95 each at half price. These sets are going for exorbitant prices on Amazon.
> 
> EDIT: I just ordered the 68 Sawallisch Roma Ring, Rheingold, Siegfried, and Gotterdammerung all for $33 USD Shipped! Now for the Walkure, but the cheapest I can find it (used!) is $49.36 USD.


Opera Depot has the compete 68 for $34 and Götterdämmerung for $12...https://operadepot.com/collections/der-ring-des-nibelungen-wolfgang-sawallisch


----------



## SixFootScowl

rw181383 said:


> Opera Depot has the compete 68 for $34 and Götterdämmerung for $12...https://operadepot.com/collections/der-ring-des-nibelungen-wolfgang-sawallisch


Does Opera Depot have the rights to it?


----------



## Granate

Fritz Kobus said:


> Does Opera Depot have the rights to [Sawallisch Rome Ring]?


I think it has a clean but different source than Myto. The _Rheingold_ is mono too.


----------



## wkasimer

Fritz Kobus said:


> Does Opera Depot have the rights to it?


I don't believe that Opera Depot has "rights" to anything.


----------



## rw181383

Just started the 1959 Dutchman with Sawallisch conducting (London, Rysanek, Greindl, Uhl) from the Wagner's Vision box set and I can already tell it will be one of my favorites. How does the Myto compare in sound?


----------



## DarkAngel

rw181383 said:


> Just started the 1959 Dutchman with Sawallisch conducting (London, Rysanek, Greindl, Uhl) from the Wagner's Vision box set and I can already tell it will be one of my favorites. How does the Myto compare in sound?


I have both recordings and don't think you will hear any real difference in sound quality, that boxset is an amazing collection of 1950s Bayreuth full operas and historic extended scences, the price is a gift 50 CDs for $50......the selections are well considered


----------



## SixFootScowl

rw181383 said:


> Opera Depot has the compete 68 for $34 and Götterdämmerung for $12...https://operadepot.com/collections/der-ring-des-nibelungen-wolfgang-sawallisch


I can get them downloaded from a streaming site for free too. But I like to have the disks anyway.


----------



## Bill H.

Has anybody mentioned yet that Pristine has a Wagner sale going on this week? All of their Wagner albums are 10% off, until midnight Central European Time on Friday the 16th. Use the code WAGNER135 at checkout to get the discount.


----------



## rw181383

DarkAngel said:


> I have both recordings and don't think you will hear any real difference in sound quality, that boxset is an amazing collection of 1950s Bayreuth full operas and historic extended scences, the price is a gift 50 CDs for $50......the selections are well considered


Thank you, DA! I'm in the 2nd Act and as you say, I can't imagine the sound being any better.


----------



## wkasimer

Bill H. said:


> Has anybody mentioned yet that Pristine has a Wagner sale going on this week? All of their Wagner albums are 10% off, until midnight Central European Time on Friday the 16th. Use the code WAGNER135 at checkout to get the discount.


Thanks. Now they're only ridiculously overpriced, rather than obscenely overpriced.


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## rw181383

Went ahead and placed this order with Opera Depot (60% sale):

Ring - 1965 - Böhm (Bayreuth-Opera Depot) 
Ring - 1967-70 - Karajan (Salzburg-Opera Depot) 
Ring - 1971 - Stein (Bayreuth-Opera Depot) 
Ring - 1977 - Boulez (Bayreuth-Opera Depot)
Parsifal - 1963 - Kna (Bayreuth-Opera Depot)
Parsifal - 1976 - Stein (Bayreuth-Opera Depot)
Parsifal - 1976 - Stein (Paris-Opera Depot)

Sorry to bring this up again, but does anyone know why the 1955 Bayreuth Knappertsbusch is not available?


----------



## Granate

rw181383 said:


> Sorry to bring this up again, but does anyone know why the *1955 Bayreuth Knappertsbusch is not available?*


(Irony mode on) STOP IT STOP IT STOP IT HAHAHAHA. Welcome to the annoyed crowd of 55 Parsifal crawlers. This member is called Barbebleu. Muac, muac. Nice to meet you rw181383. Muac, Muac. Let's cry together drinking soda. That is Granate. He doesn't care. His favourites are Bayreuth 52 and 54. Don't pay attention to him.

Only Orfeo will be able to release the 55 Parsifal from the Bavarian tapes. No Archipel researcher has found a single copy of the 1955 Broadcast. It's partially available on youtube.

That is a huge order. Thank you for purchasing the Stein Parsifals. Mind that the Bayreuth 65 Götterdämmerung has a cut. Are they on CD or download?


----------



## Itullian

Just bought Wagner's Ring playing cards.


----------



## Woodduck

Itullian said:


> Just bought Wagner's Ring playing cards.


Rackham's Pre-Raphaelitish, art-nouveauish illustrations from 1911 and 1912 are delightful. I have them in book form. http://store.doverpublications.com/0486237796.html


----------



## rw181383

Granate said:


> (Irony mode on) STOP IT STOP IT STOP IT HAHAHAHA. Welcome to the annoyed crowd of 55 Parsifal crawlers. This member is called Barbebleu. Muac, muac. Nice to meet you rw181383. Muac, Muac. Let's cry together drinking soda. That is Granate. He doesn't care. His favourites are Bayreuth 52 and 54. Don't pay attention to him.
> 
> Only Orfeo will be able to release the 55 Parsifal from the Bavarian tapes. No Archipel researcher has found a single copy of the 1955 Broadcast. It's partially available on youtube.
> 
> That is a huge order. Thank you for purchasing the Stein Parsifals. Mind that the Bayreuth 65 Götterdämmerung has a cut. Are they on CD or download?


I sure hope Orfeo releases the '55!!! I ordered cds from Opera Depot. Thank you for the info!


----------



## Itullian

Woodduck said:


> Rackham's Pre-Raphaelitish, art-nouveauish illustrations from 1911 and 1912 are delightful. I have them in book form. http://store.doverpublications.com/0486237796.html


Thanks Woodduck. I always wondered what they were!
Buying the book!


----------



## Granate

*Wagner Challenge update - Favourite MONO Ring des Nibelungen*

The huge review of Mono Ring Cycle has finished in pretty interesting results. These rings were for me, in performance quality, under some Stereo rings, which didn't happen with the rest of the Operas. In fact, I like some Meistersingers and Parsifals better in mono, not to mention the Furtwängler TUI. Many of the Rings surveyed had the flaw of a very impersonal cast or conducting, usually fading after the Rheingold, like it happened to the Furtwängler Scala and Krauss Bayreuth Rings.

Others, with *poor sound,* had almost no mention except the Covent Garden ring by Rudolf Kempe. The Naxos historical Ring from the Met could only count as testimonial for the voices of Traubel, Melchior and Flagstad. They are essentially unlistenable. The Moralt studio ring in 1949, despite a good cast and sound, suffers a lack of dynamics and highlights. Fairly correct, but it doesn't take off until Siegfried. Except for the Rheingold, the Kempe Bayreuth Ring from 1962 recently released by Myto is a missed opportunity, with some singers burnt out and a lack of quality in the sound. This comes from private tapes by Grace Hoffman.

Two of the three Rings that I recommend by *Rudolf Kempe* are very different. The Covent Garden has an advantage: hearing Birgit Nilsson and Hans Hotter singing together. The two first operas are surprise but the competition raises the bar in the other two and this Ring doesn't. The Walhall sound is dodgy but the performances could be as good as in Bayreuth. The Bayreuth 1961 Orfeo release from the original tapes has an excellent sound and the performances are really good for those Ring years, but the cost could make it unworthy and the performances of the 1960 Ring are a tough competitor. If sound was a priority, I would not buy any mono recording. The other Orfeo release, Bayreuth 1956, can be easily discarded for price, sound quality and performances. Dire sound, an unpleasant Astrid Varnay, Windgassen playing Siegmund and Siegfried and with an ok cast.

The first *Keilberth Ring in 1952* has good performances that usually stay in the shadow of the 1953 rings, so only the Götterdämmerung can have some use. Two Rings that made a great competition but eventually fell down the top, were the Furtwängler Scala Ring and the Clemens Krauss Bayreuth Ring. Both have excellent casts, but their Brünnhildes and Siefrieds perform poorly compared to other Editions. I'm afraid to say that I see Flagstad more as Isolde and Nilsson more as Brünnhilde, not the other way. Astrid Varnay would do much better in 1957.

A general remark of these four episodes, like it happened with Pierre Boulez, is that the conducting is less and less important in the last two operas. Except with Knappertsbusch and Furtwängler, I got the feeling I would not enjoy owning and playing these Rings in a HI-FI. Stereo would be enough. Despite memorable performances, there was a general lack of soul, especially in the Siegfried episode. Every recording had great singers but the conducting, the orchestral details were dim.

[HR][/HR]
*Winner*










*Wagner*
DER RING DES NIBELUNGEN WWV 86 Live recording

DRG, SF, GDR: 1957
DWK: 1958

*Chor und Orchester der Bayreuther Festspiele 
Hans Knappertsbusch
Walhall (1957/1958, Remastered Edition)*

_The combination of these two Rings provides an excellent product, with pretty slow conducting but fair dynamics (more present in 1957 except DWK). You could own both years' complete Rings and enjoy them. In 1958 the sound is darker but cleaner, although many singers change and the performances are not as perfect as in 1957. In this combination both Rheingold and Siegfried in 1957 had really positive, not perfect reviews. You should go to the Walküre thread to find out why I included the 1958 recording and ditched 1957. Astrid Varnay Sings her best Brünnhilde, with ease in the sharps and a thinner voice that has rejected many of her bass notes. More details in the individual episode, but this is worth owning._

*2nd*










*Wagner*
DER RING DES NIBELUNGEN WWV 86 Live recording

*Chor und Orchester der Bayreuther Festspiele 
Joseph Keilberth
Pan Classics (1953/2014 Remastered Edition)*

_It lives up to the legend. It's the best sung Ring with the most iconic casting (Hotter & Windgassen + Mödl & Resnik). I usually had few comments because there were almost no flaws, so it deserves any praise that you have seen in this HWR thread. You don't need to wait for the Orfeo Release for Siegfried's Act I. If the Krauss mix is the best take, the real Keilberth could have been a disaster. Windgassen in his Siegfried debut is still the flaw. Buy the Pan Classics for the best Ring in excellent sound despite the mixes and the $40 price. Martha Mödl was my choice of Brünnhilde for this year although the Krauss Rheingold improves the one in this cycle._

*3rd*










*Wagner*
DER RING DES NIBELUNGEN WWV 86 Live recording

*Orchestra Sinfonica e Coro della Radio Italiana
Wilhelm Furtwängler
Warner Classics (1953, Remastered Edition)*

_This is a very tricky Ring Recording. The sound quality improves Act by Act and from Act III in Die Walküre, both the sound and the playing is acceptable. Anyway, the performances are really well-achieved in every episode. The cast is generous in quality but the Keilberth Ring has much better versions of the same singers. Ferdinand Frantz is a controversial Wotan but I would only object him in Das Rheingold. The gravitas and depth of the conducting is worth the price. The best conducted ring of the Mono challenge. I usually was saying: this is Furt's Ring. However, when it comes to the edition, we should be careful. Not even the Pristine Classical remasters do justice and I'm still waiting to the Japan budget remaster to find out what to do._

*4th*










*Wagner*
DER RING DES NIBELUNGEN WWV 86 Live recording

+ DRG (1962, Myto)

*Chor und Orchester der Bayreuther Festspiele 
Rudolf Kempe
Operadepot (1960/2017 Remastered Edition)*

_This Wolfgang Wagner Ring has had a journey from the bottom to the surface thanks to the general sound quality and the performances by Birgit Nilsson and Hans Hopf, who would sing his worthiest Siegfried. The cast is not dire but it's little competitive, and the Walküre could be considered the weakest point (we could take the July or August performances, both are ok with positive comments for ANL as Sieglinde and both Brünnhildes. For the Rheingold, patch with a cheap 1962 performance with the best Rhinemaidens I can think of. Anyway, if you want to own this Ring from OperaDepot, you can. The conducting has a middle-of-the-road pace but plenty of dynamics, and the sound is really good. _

[HR][/HR]
I own the Keilberth Ring in the Membran label, but in a Collection I would add both the Knappertsbusch combinations and the Furtwängler Rome ring when it's available in better sound, although it has a pretty poor SQ.

*Top SQ Rings*
01: Kempe BFO 61
02: Keilberth BFO 53
03: Knappertsbusch BFO 58
04: Knappertsbusch BFO 57
05: Kempe BFO 60
06: Krauss BFO 53 
07: Furtwängler Scala 50 
08: Moralt WSO 49 
09: Keilberth BFO 52 
10: Knappertsbusch BFO 56 
11: Furtwängler RAI 53
12: Kempe BFO 62
13: Kempe ROH CV 57
14: Bodanzky Met 37

*Top Conducting Rings*
01: Furtwängler RAI 53 
02: Knappertsbusch BFO 57 
03: Knappertsbusch BFO 58
04: Kempe BFO 60
05: Furtwängler Scala 50
06: Krauss BFO 53 
07: Kempe BFO 61 
08: Kempe ROH CV 57 
09: Kempe BFO 62 
10: Keilberth BFO 53
11: Keilberth BFO 52
12: Knappertsbusch BFO 56
13: Moralt WSO 49
14: Bodanzky Met 37

*Top Singing Rings*
01: Keilberth BFO 53 
02: Knappertsbusch BFO 57 
03: Knappertsbusch BFO 58
04: Krauss BFO 53 
05: Furtwängler Scala 50
06: Kempe ROH CV 57
07: Furtwängler RAI 53 
08: Kempe BFO 60 
09: Keilberth BFO 52
10: Kempe BFO 61
11: Moralt WSO 49
12: Kempe BFO 62
13: Knappertsbusch BFO 56
14: Bodanzky Met 37

Individual episodes:

*Das Rheingold*
*Die Walküre*
*Siegfried*
*Götterdämmerung*


----------



## silentio

*I need some urgent help from Tristan experts. *

I saw there is a Tristan with Max Lorenz at Hamburg in 1949. Isolde is Paula Bauman. Have you tried this one?

https://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Tristan-Isolde-Hamburg-1949/dp/B000027HPJ

Disclaimer: there is another Max Lorenz Tristan in the late 40s, but Isolde is Paula Buchner. That one is available online:


----------



## Itullian

silentio said:


> *I need some urgent help from Tristan experts. *
> 
> I saw there is a Tristan with Max Lorenz at Hamburg in 1949. Isolde is Paula Bauman. Have you tried this one?
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Tristan-Isolde-Hamburg-1949/dp/B000027HPJ
> 
> Disclaimer: there is another Max Lorenz Tristan in the late 40s, but Isolde is Paula Buchner. That one is available online:


Wow! what singing and passion!


----------



## DarkAngel

silentio said:


> *I need some urgent help from Tristan experts. *
> 
> I saw there is a Tristan with *Max Lorenz at Hamburg in 1949*. Isolde is Paula Bauman. Have you tried this one?
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Tristan-Isolde-Hamburg-1949/dp/B000027HPJ


This was just discussed here recently in post 3433, I checked prices and too expensive used, operadepot does not have it either, I would buy both 49 & 43 Tristans if price was right



> I happened upon it almost by accident on spotify. Schmidt-Isserstedt was already on my radar, but I was ASTONISHED by the sound quality (from 1949!!!). Apparently it's a studio recording. I could not find any background info on it. If you are a fan of Max Lorenz, that alone is worth the price of admission, as this is hands-down the best recording quality you will ever find his voice in. Paula Baumann's Isolde is more than serviceable. In terms of historical German recordings of this opera, I definitely prefer the more exciting Heger recording from 1943 (also featuring Lorenz), but I'd be interested to hear thoughts from others who have heard this one.










1943 Heger

Also from 43 is the famous Furtwangler Meister with Lorenz available in many reissues....


----------



## Woodduck

If only Lorenz had sung even half of the notes written in the score... Those content with gasping and screaming are welcome to it.


----------



## Barbebleu

Can I just say thanks to Granate for the power of work he has put into his Wagner comparative listening sessions. Even though I don't always agree with his conclusions I have the utmost respect for his considered opinions and have thoroughly enjoyed reading his reviews. If I listened to as much Wagner as that in such a short space of time you would be visiting me in my local sanitarium!!


----------



## amfortas

Granate said:


> The Naxos historical Ring from the Met could only count as testimonial for the voices of Traubel, Melchior and Flagstad. They are essentially unlistenable . . .
> 
> *Top Singing Rings*
> 14: Bodanzky Met 37


Your Ring review is an impressive labor of love, Granate. But I have to quibble on one point. Yes, the Bodanzky/Leinsdorf recordings are tough sledding soundwise, but I still find them worth a listen. And come on, man! Traubel, Melchior, and Flagstad, and you still put this set at the bottom in terms of _singing_???


----------



## amfortas

Woodduck said:


> If only Lorenz had sung even half of the notes written in the score... Those content with gasping and screaming are welcome to it.


I have to say, though, I'm swept up by the unbridled way he takes a whack at it.


----------



## DarkAngel

amfortas said:


> I have to say, though, I'm swept up by the unbridled way he takes a whack at it.


I recently watched the Lorenz documentary on youtube, some great scences of bayreuth in 1930s pre-WWII and some rare 1934 live performance footage with Frida Leider (at 8:54) opening duet from gotterdammerung, you can see the beginings of the more modern stage settings that would be fully realized in 1951 revolutionary new bayreuth productions of grandchildren .......

You can admire his unique artistry and also question his common sense to ride out the war years in germany being homosexual and having a jewish wife, still somehow he survived and continued to be around for post war years






I like Max Lorenz performance style myself and would buy any of the earlier recordings if not insanely priced used....


----------



## DarkAngel

DarkAngel said:


> I like Max Lorenz performance style myself and would buy any of the earlier recordings if not insanely priced used....


Norbeck Peters Ford helped with two Max Lorenz Tristans for $10 each.........
Amazon used prices $77 & $277 ha ha ha


----------



## silentio

This excerpt from Gotterdammerung (Vassal Scene plus Vengeance Trio) is the evidence that Frida Leider is no hype. Rarely (if ever) we would find a Brunnhilde whose tone cleanly focused, penetrating but still warm and feminine:






Now, a bonus. A Brunnhilde who could sing Leonora with dexterity approaching Callas:


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## DarkAngel

^^^ The prima soprano of 1930s Bayreuth, and top opera houses MET and ROH etc, has all the vocal technique, full rich beauty of tone, everything a skillfull vocal artist employs to bring her characters to life on stage. She was recorded at mutliple venues for the famous HMV Ring of 1926-32 (using new electrical recording technology) and can best heard on Pristine XR edition.......


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## DarkAngel

DarkAngel said:


> Norbeck Peters Ford helped with two Max Lorenz Tristans for $10 each.........
> Amazon used price $277 ha ha ha


Got the 49 Lorenz Tristan on Archipel label for $10 and the previous poster was correct, the sound is amazingly good live recording that sounds like a studio take, I can hear no crowd noise. The Isolde Paula Baumann is previously unknown to me but she delivers a very good performance, get over to Norbeck Peters Ford and pick this up while still available......buy buy buy


----------



## DarkAngel

DarkAngel said:


> Norbeck Peters Ford helped with two Max Lorenz Tristans for $10 each.........
> Amazon used prices $77 & $277 ha ha ha


This one unfortunately not a buy, sound is below average making it a pass............

But definitely do buy the 49 Tristan above in really great sound $10

http://www.norpete.com/


----------



## Granate

I agree with DA with those two Tristans. I couldn't stand that sound in de Sabata.

I usually find norpete really interesting for opera purchase and research but I doubt about the price of the delivery to Europe.


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## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> This one unfortunately not a buy, sound is below average making it a pass............
> 
> But definitely do buy the 49 Tristan above in really great sound $10
> 
> http://www.norpete.com/


For my money Victor de Sabata was one of the greatest conductors of his time, in Wagner as well as Italian opera; we all know his still unequalled Tosca with Callas. Tantalizing glimpses of what must have been a shattering _Tristan_ can be had in some intense excerpts from La Scala in 1930 (sung in Italian). Sonically they're barely listenable, but the performance exerts tremendous force nonetheless.






Here's a little article about the Isolde, Giuseppina Cobelli:

Giuseppina Cobelli (1898-1948): Now virtually forgotten Star Soprano of La Scala


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## DarkAngel

^^^^ I think the sound quality in Duck's 1930 Tristan youtube is equal/better than the early 1950s Myto Tristan CD set (Victor de Sabata) above 

I had to smile to see miss Stignani's name in 1930 La Sala Tristan recording as she would famously appear in some Callas Scala recordings (Norma etc) almost 25 years later..........


----------



## Bill H.

Regarding de Sabata and Wagner, I thought I'd share a recording of a live performance he conducted with the PSONY at Carnegie Hall in 1951, with the soprano Eileen Farrell doing the "Liebestod" as well as the Immolation Scene from "Götterdämmerung". It's been awhile since I remixed this recording--I'm thinking the source material was an LP transfer that I downloaded from another blogger's page. Sorry, it's mp3 only (though 320kbps). Along with Farrell's excerpts, there's also the "Meistersinger" Prelude, the "Tristan" Prelude, and the Act I Prelude and Good Friday Music from "Parsifal". Download link is for the zipped file is here:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByTWd_3f2RpSTmZZazFEZTFRTFE


----------



## Woodduck

Bill H. said:


> Regarding de Sabata and Wagner, I thought I'd share a recording of a live performance he conducted with the PSONY at Carnegie Hall in 1951, with the soprano Eileen Farrell doing the "Liebestod" as well as the Immolation Scene from "Götterdämmerung". It's been awhile since I remixed this recording--I'm thinking the source material was an LP transfer that I downloaded from another blogger's page. Sorry, it's mp3 only (though 320kbps). Along with Farrell's excerpts, there's also the "Meistersinger" Prelude, the "Tristan" Prelude, and the Act I Prelude and Good Friday Music from "Parsifal". Download link is for the zipped file is here:
> 
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByTWd_3f2RpSTmZZazFEZTFRTFE


I wish I could play it. There are a few selections on YT. Here's the Immolation Scene:


----------



## DarkAngel

I recently acquired the Jan 43 radio broadcast MET Lohengrin (naxos) and although I am not a huge Melchior fan I think this is his finest swan knight with more warmth and closest I have heard to a tender soft voice that is so effectively used by later Lohengrins like Thomas and Konya, check the opening to in fernem land below 0:20-58 (and lead in to lieber swan 6:07-20).......

Varnay had Met wagner debut 2 yrs earlier (also with Melchior) and is very colorful and dramatic, the bedroom scence after wedding is especially animated, her voice is so large hard to portray the young girlish nature/tone of Elsa (like Grummer did so well later) but she is in great character and harmony with Melchior (later Ortrud performances would better use her vocal strengths) . The Myto is same cast but from Feb 43 broadcast......






Mr Jackson comments that Jan 43 is a great broadcast performance showcasing METs deep talent pool and Melchior is having a very good day, but also laments that technically he has lost a step from his earlier glory days......still I hear more variety in his voice with a more toned down softer touch when called for, I like it better than "the glory days"


----------



## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> I recently acquired the Jan 43 radio broadcast MET Lohengrin (naxos) and although I am not a huge Melchior fan I think this is his finest swan knight with more warmth and closest I have heard to a tender soft voice that is so effectively used by later Lohengrins like Thomas and Konya, check the opening to in fernem land below.......
> 
> Varnay had Met wagner debut 2 yrs earlier (also with Melchior) and is very colorful and dramatic, the bedroom scence after wedding is especially animated, her voice is so large hard to portray the young girlish nature/tone of Elsa (like Grummer did so well later) but she is in great character and harmony with Melchior (later Ortrud performances would better use her vocal strengths) . The Myto is same cast but from Feb 43 broadcast......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mr Jackson comments that Jan 43 is a great broadcast performance showcasing METs deep talent pool and Melchior is having a very good day, but also laments that technically he has lost a step from his earlier glory days......still I hear more variety in his voice with a more toned down softer touch when called for, I like it better than "the glory days"


I never thought Melchior's basic vocal quality was right for Lohengrin. Too dark and intense, without the note of sweetness and ethereality to match the atmosphere of the score. It's the only Wagner lead in which he doesn't trounce most of the competition. I'll take Thomas and Grummer - easily - over Melchior and Varnay in this opera.


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## Granate

Didn't anyone realise that it's Wagner week in Operadepot? 50% off again!


----------



## Barbebleu

Yep. Got the freebie Parsifal from Buenos Aires 1936. I've got pretty well everything else that I need. I've used them for a good number of years now.


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## Ragnar

I downloaded the free Maazel 1968 Ring Cycle that was offered at the beginning of the sale. Also the free Busch 1936 Parsifal that is on there now. Also grabbed the Stein 1970 Ring Cycle and the Vaviso 1969 Hollander


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## Ragnar

Also grabbed today, two Parsifals Stein Bayreuth 76 and Goodall London 71. Two Karajans Meistersinger 74 and Tristan 72 both Salzburg. Also another Hollander Sawallisch Bayreuth 59. Never heard any of the recordings I’ve gotten in the last two days. I think I’am done with this sale. There are a few more I’d like but I think I’ll wait to the next sale


----------



## Ragnar

Just listened to this Hollander on iTunes. Hamburg 1951 Conducted by Schuchter. With Hans Hotter as the Dutchman and Helene Werth as Senta. I love Hotter as the Dutchman. I had never heard mention of this recording before I came across it today. I listened to it straight through and loved it. Really good mono sound. I now know Walhall has a cd of it if I can't find this pressing. Has anyone else heard this performance? After previously hearing Schuchter' Hamburg Rheingold from 52 I think I would like to hear more from him.


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## Granate

^^

For Hotter as Dutchman, I stick to Krauss 44. It's no singer's fault that this was my least favourite Mono Holländer. I blame it to the conducting and the sound. Nothing like Knappertsbusch in Bayreuth.


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## Ragnar

I like the Krauss 44 as well as the Reiner Met broadcast. I enjoyed this one too. Can never have enough different recordings


----------



## wkasimer

Ragnar said:


> Just listened to this Hollander on iTunes. Hamburg 1951 Conducted by Schuchter. With Hans Hotter as the Dutchman and Helene Werth as Senta. I love Hotter as the Dutchman. I had never heard mention of this recording before I came across it today. I listened to it straight through and loved it. Really good mono sound. I now know Walhall has a cd of it if I can't find this pressing. Has anyone else heard this performance? After previously hearing Schuchter' Hamburg Rheingold from 52 I think I would like to hear more from him.


It's also available on Preiser:

https://www.amazon.de/Fliegende-Holländer-Schüchter/dp/B000FWGYOO

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000FWGYOO

Excellent performance, deserves to be better known.


----------



## Ragnar

Thank you wkasimer I will definitely check it out. I like when I find performances I’ve never heard before. That’s what I love about iTunes and Spotify, I get to stream different recordings and then decide if I want to invest in a physical copy.


----------



## Itullian

Any opinions on this series?
:tiphat:


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Any opinions on this series?
> 
> :tiphat:


That is an expanded historical collection in 4 volumes of the famous studio HMV 1926-32 potted Ring (multiple venues, singers and conductors), includes those recordings plus other selected ring segments/highlights thru mid 1950s I believe....the original HMV ring set was released on 61 discs 78 rpm (122 sides) and includes many of the great historical wagner singers in prime voice

Very decent sound for it age (studio recordings) but for more money Pristine XR is the very best sound of just the potted ring itself


----------



## DarkAngel

Also worth mention is a recent historical MET series "great operas at the MET" 2 CD sets which highlights a famous opera from its early acoustic recordings to modern stereo era with famous arias sung by great singers associated with the opera, there are several wagner editions. The booklets are really great and show many pix, especially cool are the historical stage sets and how they evolved over time....


----------



## Itullian

^Thanks DA!!:tiphat:


----------



## Barbebleu

Today, Easter Sunday, I have just finished listening to Parsifal, Buenos Aires 1936. What has it got against it? Well, it's cut, the sound is extremely variable, the chorus sings in Italian(yeah, I know) and really that's it. What it does have is a very fine conductor, a very fine Parsifal, a very fine Amfortas and a very fine Kundry. But what it really has that makes it stand out is probably the best Gurnemanz I have heard in many a long year. The great Ukranian bass, Alexander Kipnis, has it all. Wonderful interpretive qualities allied to a truly sumptuous voice and I'm so glad that I have heard this performance. His ability to feel and sound different as he interacts with Parsifal, Amfortas, Kundry and Titurel is remarkable. If only it had been uncut and slightly better recorded it would have leapt to the top of the list of my Parsifals, probably about even with the '62 Knappertsbusch. As it is I shall return to Act 3 again. A real treat for any Parsifal aficionados of which I am sure we have many here.


----------



## Itullian

Testament label sale at Presto Classical.
Big opportunity to pick up this classic, awesome, stereo Ring.
Now marked down to $105.00 US dollars!
Buy buy buy


----------



## SixFootScowl

Granate said:


> Didn't anyone realise that it's Wagner week in Operadepot? 50% off again!


I better go see what Hollandar's they have. My Hollander collection numbers 17 sets and I think I need more.

Whoops. Ha ha, guess that post is several weeks old. No sale today. I did get another free Parsifal download, this one with Callas, so was worth the visit.


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## gardibolt

Finally got around to listening to the 1956 Knappertsbusch Ring from Bayreuth on Orfeo last night. Incredibly good sound at least on Rheingold--I had to stop and check that I hadn't accidentally put on Solti instead, it sounded so good. It makes a difference when they go back to the original tapes from Bavarian Radio rather than the usual reliance on bootlegs and off-the-air recordings. Not cheap but I found a used copy reasonably priced. Still cheaper than the 1955 on Testament, even on sale, and comparably good sound. Can't speak for the performances as I've only gotten through Rheingold so far, but I'm liking what I heard.


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## Itullian

^^^^^
Wait until the end of Walkure.
Wow!


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## Granate

Before spending any money, try the 57 and 58 Rings. I don't like Windgassen in 56 playing both Siegmund and Siegfried, and he wouldn't get the forging song right until the 65 Ring (at least in Bayreuth)!


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## rw181383

Some Testament restocks at Berkshire: https://www.broinc.com/search.php?row=0&text=Wagner+&filter=all&Label=TESTAMENT&genre=&RPP=25&pprice=&submit=Search


----------



## Tsaraslondon

This is a long thread, and I haven't looked through all of it, so, at the risk of repeating another post, I'd like to recommend this fantastic set, though I don't know how easy it is to get hold of it these days.










Marjorie Lawrence was a major discovery for me.


----------



## gardibolt

Marjorie Lawrence is terrific and doesn't get as much press as a lot of others.


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## wkasimer

Granate said:


> Before spending any money, try the 57 and 58 Rings. I don't like Windgassen in 56 playing both Siegmund and Siegfried, and he wouldn't get the forging song right until the 65 Ring (at least in Bayreuth)!


IIRC, Windgassen was a late substitute for an indisposed Siegmund. He knew the role well, but it was never a very good fit for his voice. He recorded the role with Furtwangler on the 1953 RAI cycle, but I've always regretted that he and Suthaus didn't switch roles.


----------



## Barbebleu

GregMitchell said:


> This is a long thread, and I haven't looked through all of it, so, at the risk of repeating another post, I'd like to recommend this fantastic set, though I don't know how easy it is to get hold of it these days.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Marjorie Lawrence was a major discovery for me.


That's a great set. I got the original version on 8 vinyl albums and then the cd one when it came out. The two versions have some differences but either is a great treasure trove of fine singing.


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## rw181383

Pristine Classical is running a sale until April 20:

Spend €30-€60 - 10% off - Code: SPRING30
Spend €60-€100 - 20% off - Code: SPRING60
Spend €100+ - 30% off - Code: SPRING100


----------



## Gondowe

First of all I'm new in this forum so I want to apologize if I'm repeating themes, but I was reading part of the thread but is very long and I wanted to confirm if the controversial Act 1 of Siegfried from the 1953 Ring was conducted by Krauss or Keilberth.
Second, in Youtube there is a supposedly other Act 1 from that season but with worst sound, do you know it? is really the other (from Krauss/Keilberth)?
And whose would be your ten favourite Ring cicles? After some years (due to my sons) without opportunity to re-listen my Rings, I am re-informate me and noticed several new releases from 2008 till now.
I am relistening my Rings (acctually my Wagner)
Moralt 48-49
Furt 1950 and 53
Krauss 53
Kna 56,57,58
Solti
Thielemann 2007 (recorded)
and several seasons: 
Rheingold Met, several Walkures (35/38) (37) (41/02) from Met, and Furt 54
Siegfried from Met
Gotterdammerung from Met, Kna 51/55
Walkure Acts 1 Walter, Kna 57/63 Act 2 walter, etc, Reiner 36, Act 3 Furt 37, Karajan 51

greetings


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## Itullian

^^^^^
Hello Gondowe and welcome to the forum.!
A lot of big Wagner fans here,
Yes, it seems the first act of Keilberth Siegfried is by Krauss.
But not sure if that youtube clip is the missing act.

You have a great collection of Rings there!
And seem to have the best ones. There are many good Rings.
My top Rings include:
Solti
Knap 56, 57, 58
Keilberth 55, the stereo one on Testament
Bohm
Keilberth 53
Furt 53
Kempe 60
Karajan


----------



## Gondowe

Hello Itullian, thanks for your fast answer. 
I had forgotten Keilberth 55 that I also have.
And Levine Met in DVD
Ok about Act 1, I was convinced it was by Kraus

In your opinion, is better the 53 under Keilberth than Krauss (if you listened this last)?
And what about Kempe?

Greetings


----------



## Itullian

Gondowe said:


> Hello Itullian, thanks for your fast answer.
> I had forgotten Keilberth 55 that I also have.
> Ok about Act 1, I was convinced it was by Kraus
> 
> In your opinion, is better the 53 under Keilberth than Krauss (if you listened this last)?
> And what about Kempe?
> 
> Greetings


I was just listening to the Krauss last night and was still impressed with the amazing cast.
I really can't choose between them.
I like both Varnay and Modl as Brunhilde.
I'll have to go back and listen to the Keilberth again. It's been awhile.

There's a lot of activity on this site, so you won't have to wait long for replies.


----------



## Granate

I have the links! I knew someone was going to bring it up again!



bill h. said:


> probably always been true to some extent, even more now with the advent of digital recording and electronic splicing. An example of a historical performance that may be an exception to this is the 1953 krauss ring cycle, since he only did it once at bayreuth (keilberth did the other that year) and there are no other krauss ring performances to theoretically splice into what we have there as his legacy. Rehearsal splices could also have been used, but i don't know if there were tapings of rehearsals in those years--in any case, splicing in a rehearsal tape could be quite audible if the acoustic of an empty bayreuth is significantly different from one that's filled, especially with all the audience hackers and coughers that are notorious in those performances
> 
> Otoh, krauss did all of the parsifal performances that summer, so there are several from which the version that is now documented from that year could have been "assembled".
> 
> Assuming the other years in the 50s where there were two cycles which were split among the two main conductors (like keilberth and kna), there would also have been only one performance on tape to use from each conductor's cycle. Which doesn't preclude a surreptitious splicing from another performance in another year, but i couldn't speculate on that probability.





gardibolt said:


> yes, i believe we discussed upthread many months ago that the beginning of krauss' siegfried from 1953 that we hear on cd now is actually borrowed from keilberth's from 1953. My recollection is there was a bootleg lp many years ago that had the actual krauss beginning taped off the radio broadcast, but for some reason the keilberth opening has taken its place on all of the subsequent releases. I have no idea why this happened.





gardibolt said:


> well, it's even murkier than i recalled (and i guess i had it wrong that the old lp was the krauss; it was actually the keilberth). Here's what two people are claiming:
> 
> 
> 
> a careful hearing of both the krauss and keilberth performances of the first act of siegfried from 1953 bayreuth shows us that they are the same performance - coughs at the same place - same noise of a chair being moved right after the beginning. So the question was which conductor was correct?? I knew the one way to find out was to compare it to the allegro-royale release from the early 50s which, though purportedly by "fritz schreiber and the dresden orchestra" was actually an amateur job of recording the 1953 keilberth cycle. The performance on the allegro was definitely different so the answer is that the releases of the keilberth act one siegfried since then are actually krauss and the only way to get the actual keilberth siegfried act one is to hunt up a copy of the allegro lps - good luck with that.
> 
> 
> 
> but we also have this:
> 
> 
> 
> the first act of siegfried on both the 1953 krauss and keilberth are the same performance - same coughs at the same time etc. So the question becomes which is it. I was able to solve it by playing the infamous allegro ring that was issued in early 1954 supposedly by fritz schreiber and the dresden orchestra. The performance was actually a very primitive transfer of the 1953 bayreuth keilberth ring and the coughs in siegfried act one match that of the supposed krauss. Since it doesn't make sense that the person making the copy from the radio for the allegro lps would for some reason switch from the 1953 keilberth and start recording the 1953 krauss just for that act, i would come up with the conclusion that the performance is from the keilberth ring.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> both comments from the same thread, here:
> http://humanities.music.composers.wagner.narkive.com/dcpv43pv/siegfried-bayreuth-1953
> 
> they're both listening to the same allegro lps, and coming to completely opposite conclusions. I have no idea who's right, but they agree that one of these performances is substituting for the other.
> 
> Edit: On looking at that thread again, i see it's the _same person_ coming to completely opposite conclusions! Since the second quote is the more recent of the two, i guess he ended up deciding that keilberth was substituted for krauss' act i.
> 
> Edit 2: Here's contemporary confirmation[/url] that the allegro lps are in fact keilberth's cast and recording of the ring:
> 
> So i think that's as good as we're likely to get for confirmation that the act i of siegfried we have is keilberth's, and krauss's is apparently lost, especially in light of cushing's saturday review article cited above.
> 1) cushing, who apparently personally knew many of the principals including hotter, vinay and resnik, has their confirmation that it's the keilberth cast and performance on the allegro lps; he also cites mödl as the brünnhilde, and she was only in the keilberth and not the krauss rings in 1953. It seems unlikely that he'd confuse mödl and varnay. They're pretty distinctive.
> 2) cushing makes a convincing case that the source of the lps was a tape of an am radio transmission by an amateur, and not sourced from radio station tapes. There are many characteristics of radio sound and not proper source material, plus the recordist loses about 30 seconds every time he has to change a tape, and that's obviously not going to happen in a professional setup.
> 3) although the correspondent who listened to the allegro lps in the wagner discussion group at first thought that the recording was different than the "krauss" siegfried act i a year later he stated that they were identical to the "krauss." either he changed his mind upon a second listening, or he forgot what he concluded on his original listening and contradicted himself. If we take him at his word, though, that seems to indicate he listened more closely two years ago and found that the same noises were present on the allegro lps and the "krauss."
> 4) the correspondent's comments that it doesn't make sense for the anonymous recordist to tape all of keilberth except for act i of siegfried, and he taped krauss for that instead seems like a reasonable conclusion to me.
> So, the conclusion is that it's keilberth's act i, and krauss's siegfried for some reason has had keilberth's act i attached to it. Maybe the radio tapes for the krauss act i were damaged and since the cast was the same, they thought no one would know or notice the difference.
> 
> The one place that's still a little open to question to me is whether the correspondent that we're relying upon here actually went back and re-listened to the lps to decide it was the same as the krauss. But that's the best information we have unless someone has the allegro lps and can check it for us. I sure don't. I remember him posting under the name "willem orange" from rec.music.classical.recordings so i will contact him and ask him for clarification.
Click to expand...




bill h. said:


> the main reason i would have for doubting this person's (final) conclusion is the evidence on the orfeo release of the krauss ring, which is the only commercial version that claims to be an authorized release from the bavarian radio master tape archives. In that release, the beginning of siegfried is pretty much the one we've all come to know (in whatever guise), but also includes the opening drumroll which is cut off from all other commercial versions (those others always begin at the point with the bassoon chords).
> 
> If the beginning of the keilberth siegfried is that very same performance, i would conclude that it's the keilberth-labeled releases which use the krauss as the substitute.





gardibolt said:


> i decided to get to the bottom of this and contacted bavarian radio directly about the mystery of the 1953 siegfried act i. I am going to put the full information that i got into an article for publication, but here are the relevant essentials straight from bavarian radio:
> 
> 1) they still have the original tapes for both the keilberth and the krauss siegfried from 1953.
> 2) the orfeo krauss includes the correct krauss act i of siegfried, and it is indeed from the original bavarian radio tapes as orfeo claims.
> 3) the act i siegfried on all of the 1953 keilberth releases other than the pseudonymous allegro/royale bootleg of the keilberth radio broadcast taped off the air is actually krauss' version. Br graciously double-checked the tapes after my inquiry, and they are not the same first acts on the original tapes. The krauss act i has a loud cough on the opening g-bb of the bassoons (mostly erased on the pristine version), which is the giveaway that act i is the same as on all of these 1953 releases. There is no cough there on the genuine keilberth. Except for the allegro/royale bootleg, the actual act i of keilberth's 1953 siegfried hasn't been heard since the original broadcast.
> 4) if someone (orfeo, let's say) wanted to release the 1953 keilberth ring direct from the bavarian radio tapes and got the ok of bayreuth, they could certainly do so. The tapes are in fine shape and have *not* been damaged as some have speculated.
> 
> So there you have it. Krauss lovers can rest easy. The orfeo krauss is the genuine article (complete with the opening timpani roll). Keilberth fans have something to look forward to, maybe. I think i will have to buy the orfeo krauss to give them a modest encouragement to do the keilberth. My ocd is offended by the keilberth act i of siegfried on the various releases, including pan classics, being a fraud.


And welcome to Talk Classical, Gondowe.

My remark is that Act I in the Krauss Ring is ruined by Windgassen's forging song. The rest is quite good.


----------



## Itullian

Gondowe said:


> Hello Itullian, thanks for your fast answer.
> I had forgotten Keilberth 55 that I also have.
> And Levine Met in DVD
> Ok about Act 1, I was convinced it was by Kraus
> 
> In your opinion, is better the 53 under Keilberth than Krauss (if you listened this last)?
> And what about Kempe?
> 
> Greetings


I have the '60 Kempe set on Myto.
The mono sound is excellent.
The cast is great as well.
Very little audience noise.
Tempi on the fast side but not overly so.
An excellent Ring.


----------



## Granate

Itullian said:


> I have the '60 Kempe set on Myto.
> The mono sound is excellent.
> The cast is great as well.
> Very little audience noise.
> Tempi on the fast side but not overly so.
> An excellent Ring.


Overall the best performances of the first Wolfgang Wagner Ring Production in Bayreuth. The 61 Ring on Orfeo has equally good performances and in better sound. However, Hans Hopf would never deliver a finer Siegfried in the subsequent productions after the premiere.

You can get the Operadepot edition when there is a sale. It has the Nilsson premiere Brünnhilde in Die Walkure, although I think both the Varnay and Nilsson young Brünnhildes are fine that year.


----------



## Itullian

Granate said:


> Overall the best performances of the first Wolfgang Wagner Ring Production in Bayreuth. The 61 Ring on Orfeo has equally good performances and in better sound. However, Hans Hopf would never deliver a finer Siegfried in the subsequent productions after the premiere.
> 
> You can get the Operadepot edition when there is a sale. It has the Nilsson premiere Brünnhilde in Die Walkure, although I think both the Varnay and Nilsson young Brünnhildes are fine that year.


The Orfeo 61 has better sound than the 60?


----------



## Gondowe

Thanks Granate for your welcome, and also thanks for your detailed references about this famous Act 1.
We must wait for a real complete Keilberth 53 .
I always had curiosity for a Kempe recording. In the future Ill try with that of 61.
Greetings


----------



## Granate

^^

Thank you. I made a *Mono ring survey* a couple of months ago if you want to read it. Nilsson considered Kempe to be a gifted Wagner conductor. In my challenge I thought he was pretty on point. For me, the 1960 Bayreuth production has my favourite conducting of all the Kempe rings, although I would add the impressive 1962 Rheingold.

Régine Crespin is a great Sieglinde in 61...


----------



## Gondowe

That's a tremendous work of comparative recordings, very nice. As it is natural in many ways I don't always agree with your opinions, at least in the recordings I have listening, I repeat that I have to listen Keilberth 53 and some Kempe.
Actually I don't care about sound quality, I only care about interpretation (of course better sound gives accurate opinion but for me is enough). 
I enjoy very much, say, with the Bodanzky Met 1935/38 DW , really. And the newest editions I have of the wagner works (apart from Testament 55) are the Golden Melodram Kna rings (previously I had 58 Arkadia), EMI Furt 53 and Fonit Cetra Furt 50, for example.
But, I want to ask one thing related with some posts read in this thread: Have the Pristine classical editions the best sound now available?
Greetings


----------



## Granate

Gondowe said:


> But, I want to ask one thing related with some posts read in this thread: Have the Pristine classical editions the best sound now available?
> Greetings


*Krauss 53:* Pristine, though the Opera d'Oro release has enough clarity, not to mention the Orfeo Master release
*Furtwängler Scala:* Both Pristine and the new Archipel releases share a brilliant and detailed sound. Warmer in Pristine, but in price-quality balance, the Archipel releases win.
*Furtwängler RAI:* Pristine has no major improvement. Gebhardt has a thicker, more metallic sound that can work for some ears (not mine). EMI is very muddy in the voices. Wait for the standard release of the Japanese SACD remasters.
*Keilberth 53:* Pan Classics (formerly Andromeda) offers a very clear sound that I doubt Orfeo can improve. I would even get it regardless of the genuine Act I, because the only thing I complain about is the forging song, and Windgassen has had so many tries at that in the 1950s that it's impossible that the Keilberth Siegfried can fix it. It may not be authentic, but it's pure music.

And thank you for your comment. I try to help the way I can. I had more positive reviews for many individual Wagner operas in mono than the ones in the Ring.


----------



## Gondowe

Yes. In time I'll talk and ask about the rest of the works. Next will be TuI. 
Greetings


----------



## Bill H.

Granate said:


> *Krauss 53:* Pristine, though the Opera d'Oro release has enough clarity, not to mention the Orfeo Master release
> *Furtwängler Scala:* Both Pristine and the new Archipel releases share a brilliant and detailed sound. Warmer in Pristine, but in price-quality balance, the Archipel releases win.
> *Furtwängler RAI:* Pristine has no major improvement. Gebhardt has a thicker, more metallic sound that can work for some ears (not mine). EMI is very muddy in the voices. Wait for the standard release of the Japanese SACD remasters.
> *Keilberth 53:* Pan Classics (formerly Andromeda) offers a very clear sound that I doubt Orfeo can improve. I would even get it regardless of the genuine Act I, because the only thing I complain about is the forging song, and Windgassen has had so many tries at that in the 1950s that it's impossible that the Keilberth Siegfried can fix it. It may not be authentic, but it's pure music.
> 
> And thank you for your comment. I try to help the way I can. I had more positive reviews for many individual Wagner operas in mono than the ones in the Ring.


The discussion about the Krauss Siegfried is always fun, and I wanted to send out a reminder that the remix I made of this Siegfried is available for free download, but be aware that as it's in FLAC format the zip file size is nearly 1GB: 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByTWd_3f2RpSMWxydk1aUERNaVE

For this one, as well as the rest of the Krauss Ring, I took a reasonably high bitrate mp3 long file download that I purchased some years ago from a now defunct site (I have no idea what particular incarnation might have been the source), readjusted the equalization/frequency response, added some ambience to the mono sound, restored the opening drumroll in the Act I Prelude, and did my own track splits. Since it's free, you may find it's worth about as much as you paid for it, but if you haven't heard the performance and want to find out what the fuss is about before spending for a commercial release, here's your chance.

And on my list of future projects is a transfer of the Furtwängler RAI Ring, for which I have the original EMI (Seraphim) LP set. Someday....


----------



## Barbebleu

I've finished listening to the Keilberth Hollander from Bayreuth 1956. This is the performance from 12 August. 
Daland - Arnold van Mill
Senta - Astrid Varnay
Erik - Josef Traxel
Mary - Elisabeth Schartel
Steersman - Jean Cox
Hollander - George London

I have the performance from 24 August which has Ludwig Weber as Daland and Paul Schoffler as the Hollander but I haven't listened to it yet.

As for this one, well. It is pretty good in the main. London is in good voice and isn't showing any of the problems that bedevilled him later. Arnold van Mill is a great Daland, showing his venal and sinister side very nicely. Varnay sings o.k. but she is very uninvolving. She lacks that otherworldliness and dream-like quality that a good Senta should have. She does a good job of the ballad though. Schartel makes as much of the part of Mary as anyone can, a thankless task for any singer. Jean Cox, early in his career, is a good Steersman.

The star of the show is Josef Traxel as Erik. At last a true rival for Senta's affections. Wonderfully sung and acted and the Hollander definitely has a battle on his hands here. Traxel is worth the admission price alone. 

Keilberth is his usual reliable self although at times the whole thing feels a bit leaden and seems to lack verve and vitality in comparison to the '55 recording. Having said that the '55 recording was cobbled together from rehearsals and performances so you are hearing, in effect, edited highlights! Perhaps more will be revealed when I listen to the 24 August performance.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Der fliegende Holländer
Conductor Clemens Krauss - 1944
Orchestra - Bayerische Staatsoper
Chorus - Bayerische Staatsoper

Holländer - Hans Hotter
Senta - Viorica Ursuleac
Daland - Georg Hann
Erik - Karl Ostertag
Mary - Luise Willer
Steuermann - Franz Klarwein

Sound clips here.


----------



## Woodduck

Barbebleu said:


> The star of the show is Josef Traxel as Erik. At last a true rival for Senta's affections. Wonderfully sung and acted and the Hollander definitely has a battle on his hands here. Traxel is worth the admission price alone.


I've always appreciated Traxel, an insufficiently remembered tenor with a beautifully clear tone and superb legato. I believe he sings a terrific steersman on at least one recorded _Dutchman._ Here are some fine samples of his Wagner and Mozart:


----------



## Barbebleu

Fritz Kobus said:


> Der fliegende Holländer
> Conductor Clemens Krauss - 1944
> Orchestra - Bayerische Staatsoper
> Chorus - Bayerische Staatsoper
> 
> Holländer - Hans Hotter
> Senta - Viorica Ursuleac
> Daland - Georg Hann
> Erik - Karl Ostertag
> Mary - Luise Willer
> Steuermann - Franz Klarwein
> 
> Sound clips here.


How is the sound on this Fritz? I have read dire reports about the distortion when the volume is pushed.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Barbebleu said:


> How is the sound on this Fritz? I have read dire reports about the distortion when the volume is pushed.


Yes it does seem variable from decent to a bit disconcerting in the clips. And I mean disconcerting in an unusual way: Dis - concert - ing, that is, undoing of concert sound or not very good sound. Give it a try: Sound clips here.

But the performance is quite compelling.


----------



## kineno

Fritz Kobus said:


> Yes it does seem variable from decent to a bit disconcerting in the clips. And I mean disconcerting in an unusual way: Dis - concert - ing, that is, undoing of concert sound or not very good sound. Give it a try: Sound clips here.
> 
> But the performance is quite compelling.


The fly in the ointment, sadly, is the Senta of Ursuleac (Mrs. Krauss).


----------



## Barbebleu

kineno said:


> The fly in the ointment, sadly, is the Senta of Ursuleac (Mrs. Krauss).


Nothing wrong with a bit of nepotism. _Pace_ Legge/Schwarzkopf!


----------



## Barbebleu

Woodduck said:


> I've always appreciated Traxel, an insufficiently remembered tenor with a beautifully clear tone and superb legato. I believe he sings a terrific steersman on at least one recorded _Dutchman._ Here are some fine samples of his Wagner and Mozart:


Yes, he was the steersman on the 1955 Keilberth recording.


----------



## SixFootScowl

kineno said:


> The fly in the ointment, sadly, is the Senta of Ursuleac (Mrs. Krauss).


That is where the poor recording quality may be beneficial in somewhat masking the poor vocal capabilities. :lol:

It also represents a turnaround on the story as, instead of her rescuing the Dutchman, he has to rescue her with his great vocal abilities.


----------



## Granate

Woodduck said:


> I've always appreciated Traxel, an insufficiently remembered tenor with a beautifully clear tone and superb legato. I believe he sings a terrific steersman on at least one recorded _Dutchman._












My favourite _Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg_ (not counting Kubelík) with one of my favourite Walthers on record.


----------



## SixFootScowl

kineno said:


> The fly in the ointment, sadly, is the Senta of Ursuleac (Mrs. Krauss).


Well, one reviewer on Amazon is fairly generous about it:


> Incontestably, the most controversial element of the set is the Senta of Ursuleac. When this recording was published by Mercury, in 1950, it was the first complete opera to be issued with the diva, and the reception was not very positive, even though it was also the first recording of this opera to be published on LP records.
> 
> Irving Kolodin, "Dean of American Critics," in Saturday Review, was scathing, declaring that the soprano "sings Senta in a manner only to be described as lamentable. Perhaps this exhibition satisfied some domestic situation of the moment, but why such quavery, out-of-tune, obviously labored singing should be presented to the American public as good goods, in the latest mode and with all the skill of Mercury's technicians in the transfer, is one for someone smarter than I am." And Opera News called her performance "bitterly disappointing.... In very bad voice when this recording was made, she sings so poorly and with such uncertain, wobbling tones that she cripples every scene in which she takes part." American critics, then and now, are well known for preferring the inexpressive, pretty voice, to that of the singing-actress, for whom expression is all.
> 
> At this distance, we can reconsider Ursuleac's performance. The prima donna turned fifty years old the month of this performance, but even in her earliest recordings, one realizes she never had a conventionally-beautiful instrument. Rather, she was a great musician (it is well known that she was Richard Strauss's favorite soprano) and actress. Her chest voice was not Italianate; her middle voice was congested and squally, even ugly; but her top voice was always brilliant. As with many of the great singing-actresses, hers was a manufactured instrument.
> 
> But expressive, Ursuleac most certainly was: She is sublime in the duet with the Dutchman, passionate in her encounters with Erik, and rises to great, even incomparable, heights in the final scene. As Hotter wrote in his Memoirs, she was simply "incomparable." The next month, the Kammersängerin was to sing another Concert Version, as the Marschallin in "Der Rosenkavalier," with Krauß, in Munich. That rich performance was first issued by Vox, in 1952.


----------



## Barbebleu

Granate said:


> My favourite _Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg_ (not counting Kubelík) with one of my favourite Walthers on record.


Itullian will immediately dismiss this one. The magic words are Otto and Wiener!


----------



## Barbebleu

Reference post #3517

I have listened to the 24 August performance and there's not much to say about it other than the whole performance seems a bit less exciting than the 12 August one. Weber and Schöffler are OK as Daland and the Holländer and Varnay is just the same as her earlier outing. Traxel, although in good voice, seems a little less involved. Keilberth is not in as good form, he often lets the pace drift. If you have the earlier performance don't bother with the later one.


----------



## interestedin

Barbebleu said:


> Reference post #3517
> 
> I have listened to the 24 August performance and there's not much to say about it other than the whole performance seems a bit less exciting than the 12 August one. Weber and Schöffler are OK as Daland and the Holländer and *Varnay is just the same as her earlier outing*. Traxel, although in good voice, seems a little less involved. Keilberth is not in as good form, he often lets the pace drift. If you have the earlier performance don't bother with the later one.


Today would be Astrid Varnay's 100th birthday!


----------



## Gondowe

Hello again. 
I´d want to ask, what Tristan of Sawallish is better, in your opinion, 1957 or 58?
Greetings


----------



## Granate

Gondowe said:


> Hello again.
> I´d want to ask, what Tristan of Sawallish is better, in your opinion, 1957 or 58?
> Greetings


Tough question:



Granate said:


> *Wagner*
> TRISTAN UND ISOLDE WWV 90 Live recording
> Wolfgang Windgassen
> Birgit Nilsson
> Grace Hoffman
> Hans Hotter
> Arnold van Mill
> Hermann Winkler
> Fritz Uhl
> 
> *Chor und Orchester der Bayreuther Festspiele
> Wolfgang Sawallisch
> Walhall (1957/2008 Remastered Edition)*
> 
> Followed by Sawallisch Bayreuth 1958 (5th position). Almost no difference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *5th & 4th: Wolfgang Sawallisch, Bayreuth, 1957 & 1958 (I pick 57)*
> 
> Two strikingly similar recordings despite their differences in the secondary cast. I would have thanked a different Kurwenal (Saedén) in 1958, but Hans Hotter strangely fit in the performance and did nicely. I could do without 1958 because Nilsson's Isolde is slightly more refined and less intense. With 1958 out, let's discuss the (second) performance of the 1957 premiere by Wolfgang Wagner.
> 
> The sound is not what I would expect in 1957. There is a lot less clarity than in the Andromeda Jochum 53. I needed to visit all the Nilsson-Windgassen performances between 1957 and 1967 to find out that this performance is unique, irreplaceable. Two young singers bringing freshness to two big roles. Remember when I said in the studio 1960 recording by Solti that Nilsson sung like in an atonal opera? This time it was slightly the same story. The first Isolde lines are usually annoying, but this young Nilsson magnifies the effect. Eek. Nilsson grows in the opera and from Act II Scene I she is faultless. Incredibly intense. Windgassen is very good as a young Tristan although it can seem that the role is too big for him then. The combination cannot be better and that energy is used by Windgassen in Act III. And Nilsson becomes herself in the Liebestod. Not my pick for the couple, considering mono and stereo competitors, but a worthy listen.


----------



## wkasimer

Granate said:


> Tough question:


I agree that the two performances are pretty similar. FWIW, I find the sound fine on the 1957 performance, but I have it on Melodram, not Walhall.


----------



## jukeboxtheater

Opera Depot uses public domain recordings of live opera performances and then remasters them to make sure they're free of digital nasties. I've ordered 3 Ring cycles from them and the sound quality can vary quiet a lot, but Andy is usually pretty forthcoming about audible flaws and the overall sound quality in his highly informative write-ups which he does for nearly every recording they sell.


----------



## Itullian

^^^^Welcome to the forum.


----------



## rw181383

Already looking forward to this release in September...









https://birgitnilssonprize.org/birgitnilsson100/cd-edition/

Another link with more info:

http://www.birgitnilsson100.com


----------



## gardibolt

Speaking of Nilsson, I understand Orfeo's next release in their Bayreuth series from Bavarian Radio's tapes will be the 1958 Tristan und Isolde, Sawallisch/Nilsson/Windgassen.


----------



## wkasimer

Apparently, the latest issue of Gramophone includes a CD with samples of the Sony set. People who've heard it are not at all impressed by the quality of the sonics.


----------



## DarkAngel

New 72 CD Decca boxset has *special new centenary remasters of Bohm & Solti Rings*, don't need the entire boxset but would buy a newly remastered 1966-67 Bohm Ring if sold seperately......this would replace the latest 2013 import remaster boxset which I never did buy










The Solti Ring was last remastered in 2012 and recently sold in reduced price boxset, be very hard to top this with better sound......


----------



## Granate

gardibolt said:


> Speaking of Nilsson, I understand Orfeo's next release in their Bayreuth series from Bavarian Radio's tapes will be the 1958 Tristan und Isolde, Sawallisch/Nilsson/Windgassen.


Couldn't they just do 1957 which has my favourite Nilsson Isolde performance but poorer sonics?

*CRIES IN WAGNERIAN*

And which anniversary do we have to wait for to buy the complete 1955 Parsifal?

And if they want another Parsifal, screw Barbebleu, I want the stereo mastertapes of the Bayreuth 67 Parsifal with King and Ludwig!


----------



## Barbebleu

Granate said:


> Couldn't they just do 1957 which has my favourite Nilsson Isolde performance but poorer sonics?
> 
> *CRIES IN WAGNERIAN*
> 
> And which anniversary do we have to wait for to buy the complete 1955 Parsifal?
> 
> And if they want another Parsifal, screw Barbebleu, I want the stereo mastertapes of the Bayreuth 67 Parsifal with King and Ludwig!


That wasn't very nice Granate. If I was of a vindictive nature I'd be complaining to the mods. But luckily I'm a peaceable soul so I'll let it slide.  The '55, as you know, is my missing Knappertsbusch Parsifal and my obsessive compulsive nature compels me to never rest until I have this.


----------



## Woodduck

Granate said:


> And if they want another Parsifal, screw Barbebleu, I want the stereo mastertapes of the Bayreuth 67 Parsifal with King and Ludwig!


Be sure to get Barbebleu's consent. I'm guessing he has no plans to join the "Me Too" movement just now.


----------



## Itullian

Hear Ye, Hear Ye
Big sale at Presto Classical on the Testament label.

This Keilberth Ring is now $100.75 US dollars.
As DarkAngel would say.............
BUY BUY BUY BUY


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> Hear Ye, Hear Ye
> Big sale at Presto Classical on the Testament label.
> 
> This Keilberth Ring is now $100.75 US dollars.
> As DarkAngel would say.............
> BUY BUY BUY BUY


Thank goodness I've already got this. I don't think my wallet can stand another Ring Cycle. Well maybe a really good '51 Bayreuth Ring or as we aficionados like to call it, the quest for the holy grail!!:lol: I'd even settle for a good quality '54.


----------



## Barbebleu

I was going to start a new thread on this but as the recording is almost sixty years old I think it's safe to say it qualifies as a historical recording.

I have been revisiting Solti's studio Tristan with Nilsson fresh from her historic triumph at the Met. I enjoyed it again very much and feel that it still stands up pretty well even allowing for its, imo minor shortcomings. A lot has been said about Uhl being underpowered. I have several recordings with the good Fritz and he never seemed underpowered to me. I think the real problem with this recording lies in the hands of Messrs. Culshaw and Solti. Firstly they wanted to showcase Nilsson and secondly that wanted to show how good the VPO and Solti were. The balances therefore tended to favour them at the expense of the others. 

When listening on headphones it seemed to me that Uhl, and to a certain extent the others, was/were far too recessed in the mix. In fact at times Nilsson although giving it her all isn't cutting through the way she did on live recordings. The engineering is very clearly, to my ears anyway, biased towards The orchestral playing, which is certainly fabulous, and to Nilsson's voice. They had a major star on their books and they certainly wanted the operatic world to take notice. In Culshaw's book, Ring Resounding, he mentions an incident where Nilsson fell out with them because after listening to a recording of Gotterdammerung at home she complained that she could hardly hear herself. It transpired she was listening on defective equipment that had no treble and heavy bass. When this was sorted she came through loud and clear. 

Decca favoured her when recording her and hadn't forgotten this when they got around to doing the Ring. I also feel that when you are listening to take after take your ears must adjust to the point where you are hearing stuff much clearer than the average listener because you are so familiar with the music. Perhaps in the studio Uhl sounded louder than he actually was and this is reflected in the mix. I often think that studios could do worse than invite members of the record buying public to take the product home to listen to before the stuff goes on general release and they might get a surprise when they get the reports back.

In sum this is an excellent Tristan and an important document in Nilsson's recorded output.


----------



## Itullian

Barbebleu said:


> I was going to start a new thread on this but as the recording is almost sixty years old I think it's safe to say it qualifies as a historical recording.
> 
> I have been revisiting Solti's studio Tristan with Nilsson fresh from her historic triumph at the Met. I enjoyed it again very much and feel that it still stands up pretty well even allowing for its, imo minor shortcomings. A lot has been said about Uhl being underpowered. I have several recordings with the good Fritz and he never seemed underpowered to me. I think the real problem with this recording lies in the hands of Messrs. Culshaw and Solti. Firstly they wanted to showcase Nilsson and secondly that wanted to show how good the VPO and Solti were. The balances therefore tended to favour them at the expense of the others.
> 
> When listening on headphones it seemed to me that Uhl, and to a certain extent the others, was/were far too recessed in the mix. In fact at times Nilsson although giving it her all isn't cutting through the way she did on live recordings. The engineering is very clearly, to my ears anyway, biased towards The orchestral playing, which is certainly fabulous, and to Nilsson's voice. They had a major star on their books and they certainly wanted the operatic world to take notice. In Culshaw's book, Ring Resounding, he mentions an incident where Nilsson fell out with them because after listening to a recording of Gotterdammerung at home she complained that she could hardly hear herself. It transpired she was listening on defective equipment that had no treble and heavy bass. When this was sorted she came through loud and clear.
> 
> Decca favoured her when recording her and hadn't forgotten this when they got around to doing the Ring. I also feel that when you are listening to take after take your ears must adjust to the point where you are hearing stuff much clearer than the average listener because you are so familiar with the music. Perhaps in the studio Uhl sounded louder than he actually was and this is reflected in the mix. I often think that studios could do worse than invite members of the record buying public to take the product home to listen to before the stuff goes on general release and they might get a surprise when they get the reports back.
> 
> In sum this is an excellent Tristan and an important document in Nilsson's recorded output.


And the new deluxe edition is fabulous. Luxurious booklet and even better sound.

And each act is complete on it's own disc! :clap::clap:

I enjoy the prominence of the orchestra for a change.


----------



## Woodduck

Barbebleu said:


> I was going to start a new thread on this but as the recording is almost sixty years old I think it's safe to say it qualifies as a historical recording.
> 
> I have been revisiting Solti's studio Tristan with Nilsson fresh from her historic triumph at the Met. I enjoyed it again very much and feel that it still stands up pretty well even allowing for its, imo minor shortcomings. A lot has been said about Uhl being underpowered. I have several recordings with the good Fritz and he never seemed underpowered to me. I think the real problem with this recording lies in the hands of Messrs. Culshaw and Solti. Firstly they wanted to showcase Nilsson and secondly that wanted to show how good the VPO and Solti were. The balances therefore tended to favour them at the expense of the others.
> 
> When listening on headphones it seemed to me that Uhl, and to a certain extent the others, was/were far too recessed in the mix. In fact at times Nilsson although giving it her all isn't cutting through the way she did on live recordings. The engineering is very clearly, to my ears anyway, biased towards The orchestral playing, which is certainly fabulous, and to Nilsson's voice. They had a major star on their books and they certainly wanted the operatic world to take notice. In Culshaw's book, Ring Resounding, he mentions an incident where Nilsson fell out with them because after listening to a recording of Gotterdammerung at home she complained that she could hardly hear herself. It transpired she was listening on defective equipment that had no treble and heavy bass. When this was sorted she came through loud and clear.
> 
> Decca favoured her when recording her and hadn't forgotten this when they got around to doing the Ring. I also feel that when you are listening to take after take your ears must adjust to the point where you are hearing stuff much clearer than the average listener because you are so familiar with the music. Perhaps in the studio Uhl sounded louder than he actually was and this is reflected in the mix. I often think that studios could do worse than invite members of the record buying public to take the product home to listen to before the stuff goes on general release and they might get a surprise when they get the reports back.
> 
> In sum this is an excellent Tristan and an important document in Nilsson's recorded output.


I'm afraid I'm going to differ with your final verdict on this _Tristan._ My first _Tristan_ recordings, acquired in my mid-teens, were the Melchior-Leider love duet and the complete opera with Flagstad, Suthaus and Furtwangler. Then came the Solti with Nilsson and Uhl, and I wondered if I was listening to the same opera. Culshaw's engineering is the worst he ever did; you might as well be sitting in the orchestra, with the singers out in the lobby. I can't agree that it favors Nilsson; I've heard most of her recordings and heard her live at the Met, and on this set she is almost miniaturized. These balances don't favor anyone, including Solti, whose knife-edged aggression might have been tamed a bit by a warmer acoustic and a less in-your-face perspective. Solti's aggression works fine in the more frenetic parts of the score, but he misses much of the work's gravity and sense of fate, and he comes up empty in the more inward, romantic moments; on first listening I was disappointed with his prelude, and he doesn't approach the magic spell that Furtwangler weaves in the Act 2 night of love (though, to be fair, hardly anyone does). Brangaene's gorgeous warning song, under Furtwangler a masterpiece of romantic rapture, goes for nearly nothing with Solti.

Given the orchestra-heavy balance, I almost hesitate to judge the singers, but I have to say I don't think any of them are equal to the best on other recordings. Regina Resnik is a matronly-sounding Brangaene, Van Mill a dull Marke, and Uhl a pleasantly young-sounding but unimaginative Tristan. I seem to remember Tom Krause as a good Kurwenal, but Eberhard Wachter and Fischer-Dieskau are superb for Bohm and Furtwangler respectively. Nilsson's characterization was to grow sharper later under Wieland Wagner, but here she's in fine, fresh voice, right up to the end of the "Liebestod," where, strangely, she goes flat. I've never seen any mention of this, and I don't know why it wasn't corrected; my teenage ears were highly indignant when I heard it, but I was subsequently reassured by the overwhelming "Liebestod" she gave us with Bohm at Bayreuth, and with the way she climaxed a long evening at the Met in 1972.

I admit to not having listened to this for many years, but these were my impressions years ago. Maybe I'd be more tolerant now, but since I've only gotten more particular with age (something about not wanting to waste the time remaining), I doubt it.


----------



## DarkAngel

The classic 66 Bohm Bayreuth version gets the deluxe remaster treatment also with hardcover booklet and blu ray. Tully can rejoice that new version is one act on each of 3 CDs like the previous older CD release, Bohm's faster tempo allow entire act 1 on first CD.......

I wish the deluxe booklet had more unique material like photos of revolutionary stage set and more singers in performance










As for Tristan all I can say is 1952 was a very good year...........


----------



## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> The classic 66 Bohm Bayreuth version gets the deluxe remaster treatment also with hardcover booklet and blu ray. Tully can rejoice that new version is one act on each of 3 CDs like the previous older CD release, Bohm's faster tempo allow entire act 1 on first CD.......
> 
> I wish the deluxe booklet had more unique material like photos of revolutionary stage set and more singers in performance
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As for the Tristan all I can say is 1952 was a very good year...........


Three essential recordings - all different, all enlightening. _Tristan,_ of all operas, will always remain beyond the reach of any one performance.


----------



## DavidA

Barbebleu said:


> I was going to start a new thread on this but as the recording is almost sixty years old I think it's safe to say it qualifies as a historical recording.
> 
> I have been revisiting Solti's studio Tristan with Nilsson fresh from her historic triumph at the Met. I enjoyed it again very much and feel that it still stands up pretty well even allowing for its, imo minor shortcomings. A lot has been said about Uhl being underpowered. I have several recordings with the good Fritz and he never seemed underpowered to me. I think the real problem with this recording lies in the hands of Messrs. Culshaw and Solti. Firstly they wanted to showcase Nilsson and secondly that wanted to show how good the VPO and Solti were. The balances therefore tended to favour them at the expense of the others.
> 
> When listening on headphones it seemed to me that Uhl, and to a certain extent the others, was/were far too recessed in the mix. In fact at times Nilsson although giving it her all isn't cutting through the way she did on live recordings. The engineering is very clearly, to my ears anyway, biased towards The orchestral playing, which is certainly fabulous, and to Nilsson's voice. They had a major star on their books and they certainly wanted the operatic world to take notice. In Culshaw's book, Ring Resounding, he mentions an incident where Nilsson fell out with them because after listening to a recording of Gotterdammerung at home she complained that she could hardly hear herself. It transpired she was listening on defective equipment that had no treble and heavy bass. When this was sorted she came through loud and clear.
> 
> Decca favoured her when recording her and hadn't forgotten this when they got around to doing the Ring. I also feel that when you are listening to take after take your ears must adjust to the point where you are hearing stuff much clearer than the average listener because you are so familiar with the music. Perhaps in the studio Uhl sounded louder than he actually was and this is reflected in the mix. I often think that studios could do worse than invite members of the record buying public to take the product home to listen to before the stuff goes on general release and they might get a surprise when they get the reports back.
> 
> In sum this is an excellent Tristan and an important document in Nilsson's recorded output.


This had a good press when it came out but that was due to the rarity of Tristan recordings, but later its shortcomings were laid bare. . Later Robin Holloway complained 'the lovers are a spider pair - a powerless male and devouring female. Birgit Nilsson is clad in steel armour..........she is incapable of tenderness.' He also was highly critical of Solti's conducting as is Solti many years later in his autobiography. He said he was disappointed with this Tristan one thing because of the balances but also because 'I was too inexperienced.' He hoped to record it again as he did Mastersingers but of course he died suddenly. A pity Karajan (who was available) wasn't chosen as conductor. But Culshaw appeared to think 'Solti was the great Wagnerian of our time' and (to my knowledge but I might be wrong) despite him never having conducted Tristan, chose him for this recording.


----------



## damianjb1

DarkAngel said:


> For new people to this discussion you must own the three Jackson MET books, wonderful photos and priceless discussions of singers and performances, large format 11 x 8 with 500-600 pages each.........Amazon USA used, buy buy buy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1931-50
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1950-66 (R. Bing era)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1966-76 (new lincoln center complex)


Thank you so much. They are on their way!!!


----------



## Barbebleu

Woodduck said:


> I'm afraid I'm going to differ with your final verdict on this _Tristan._ My first _Tristan_ recordings, acquired in my mid-teens, were the Melchior-Leider love duet and the complete opera with Flagstad, Suthaus and Furtwangler. Then came the Solti with Nilsson and Uhl, and I wondered if I was listening to the same opera. Culshaw's engineering is the worst he ever did; you might as well be sitting in the orchestra, with the singers out in the lobby. I can't agree that it favors Nilsson; I've heard most of her recordings and heard her live at the Met, and on this set she is almost miniaturized. These balances don't favor anyone, including Solti, whose knife-edged aggression might have been tamed a bit by a warmer acoustic and a less in-your-face perspective. Solti's aggression works fine in the more frenetic parts of the score, but he misses much of the work's gravity and sense of fate, and he comes up empty in the more inward, romantic moments; on first listening I was disappointed with his prelude, and he doesn't approach the magic spell that Furtwangler weaves in the Act 2 night of love (though, to be fair, hardly anyone does). Brangaene's gorgeous warning song, under Furtwangler a masterpiece of romantic rapture, goes for nearly nothing with Solti.
> 
> Given the orchestra-heavy balance, I almost hesitate to judge the singers, but I have to say I don't think any of them are equal to the best on other recordings. Regina Resnik is a matronly-sounding Brangaene, Van Mill a dull Marke, and Uhl a pleasantly young-sounding but unimaginative Tristan. I seem to remember Tom Krause as a good Kurwenal, but Eberhard Wachter and Fischer-Dieskau are superb for Bohm and Furtwangler respectively. Nilsson's characterization was to grow sharper later under Wieland Wagner, but here she's in fine, fresh voice, right up to the end of the "Liebestod," where, strangely, she goes flat. I've never seen any mention of this, and I don't know why it wasn't corrected; my teenage ears were highly indignant when I heard it, but I was subsequently reassured by the overwhelming "Liebestod" she gave us with Bohm at Bayreuth, and with the way she climaxed a long evening at the Met in 1972.
> 
> I admit to not having listened to this for many years, but these were my impressions years ago. Maybe I'd be more tolerant now, but since I've only gotten more particular with age (something about not wanting to waste the time remaining), I doubt it.


Thank goodness for an honest to goodness discussion of the merits or otherwise of a recording that we all have an opinion of. I kind of deliberately went against the grain on this recording because I hoped it would get the responses I hoped for, particularly from you. It was my first Tristan so it holds a place in my psyche but I totally agree with you on it and I have heard plenty of better Tristans and hope one day to hear that elusive perfect one. Although I'm not holding my breath.

I also noticed that Arnold van Mill goes off-key in a few places and that wasn't sorted by the engineers. Could this have been a rush job without enough studio time to get things right? Who knows? It's all moot now.

Cheers all. It's been real.


----------



## DarkAngel

DavidA said:


> This had a good press when it came out but that was due to the rarity of Tristan recordings, but later its shortcomings were laid bare. . Later Robin Holloway complained 'the lovers are a spider pair - a powerless male and devouring female. Birgit Nilsson is clad in steel armour..........she is incapable of tenderness.' He also was highly critical of Solti's conducting as is Solti many years later in his autobiography. He said he was disappointed with this Tristan one thing because of the balances but also because 'I was too inexperienced.' He hoped to record it again as he did Mastersingers but of course he died suddenly. A pity Karajan (who was available) wasn't chosen as conductor. *But Culshaw appeared to think 'Solti was the great Wagnerian of our time' and (to my knowledge but I might be wrong) despite him never having conducted Tristan, chose him for this recording*.


Perhaps you have a theory as to why Culshaw choose Solti in the first place to record the first studio Ring?

He was not previously well known or widely respected as a Wagner conductor and had not conducted at Bayreuth before 57 Rheingold Decca recording sessions.......during 1950s Solti was conducting at Frankfort opera, and previously Culshaw knew him as a pianist on some Decca recordings, not the background one would expect for the greatest most expensive opera recording project of all time...........


----------



## DavidA

DarkAngel said:


> Perhaps you have a theory as to why Culshaw choose Solti in the first place to record the first studio Ring?
> 
> He was not previously well known or widely respected as a Wagner conductor and had not conducted at Bayreuth before 57 Rheingold Decca recording sessions.......during 1950s Solti was conducting at Frankfort opera, and previously Culshaw knew him as a pianist on some Decca recordings, not the background one would expect for the greatest most expensive opera recording project of all time...........


According to Culshaw he heard Solti conduct Walkure at Frankfurt in 1948 and decided he was 'the great Wagner conductor of our time'. I think Knappersbusch was also in the running as he was a favourite of Culshaw, but after making the first act of Walkure with him decided he could not work with Kna under studio conditions. He said that recommending they did not record Tristan with Kna was 'the bitterest professional recommendation of my life.' Of course, the inexperienced Solti was chosen, which at the time was madness with Karajan available and in Vienna. Karajan was highly displeased that he wasn't chosen to record it with 'his' opera orchestra and and did his best to disrupt the Tristan sessions by demanding sessions of his own. Uhl of course was completely new to tristan and had to learn the role from scratch, Windgassen being tied to DG at the time


----------



## Itullian

Man, I'm so disappointed.
Remastered, beautiful booklet and they still broke the acts up
when they easily could have put acts 2 and 3 on their own discs.
What's wrong with these people! :scold:


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## Barbebleu

It probably never even occurred to them. Because I rip to a platform of my choice beginning with 'i' I put the tracks into acts for listening on both my hi-fi and iPod. Problem solved.


----------



## Itullian

Barbebleu said:


> It probably never even occurred to them. Because I rip to a platform of my choice beginning with 'i' I put the tracks into acts for listening on both my hi-fi and iPod. Problem solved.


It occurred to them with their Tristan.


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> It occurred to them with their Tristan.


Is Tristan on three or four CDs?


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## Itullian

Barbebleu said:


> Is Tristan on three or four CDs?


3.
One for each act. Which in the first release the acts are split up.
That's why I am disappointed in this release


----------



## Barbebleu

Ok. Looking at the Parsifal act timings they could have left Act 1 on two discs and put two and three on a disc each. Probably because there were still going to be four discs they just left things as they were. With Tristan they wouldn't want a five disc set so they squeezed them onto three discs to have disc four for the rehearsal stuff. They must be at the limit on at least one of the discs. I think 78' to 80' minutes is the technical limit for a cd.


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## Itullian

Barbebleu said:


> Ok. Looking at the Parsifal act timings they could have left Act 1 on two discs and put two and three on a disc each. Probably because there were still going to be four discs they just left things as they were. With Tristan they wouldn't want a five disc set so they squeezed them onto three discs to have disc four for the rehearsal stuff. They must be at the limit on at least one of the discs. I think 78' to 80' minutes is the technical limit for a cd.


But the Tristan, Act 1 is over 82 minutes and they put it on one disc.


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## wkasimer

Barbebleu said:


> Ok. Looking at the Parsifal act timings they could have left Act 1 on two discs and put two and three on a disc each.


Which is how most recordings of Parsifal break things up. There are very, very few Parsifal performances with third acts in excess of 80 minutes - Kna in 1951, and a couple of Levine performances, and that's about it.



> Probably because there were still going to be four discs they just left things as they were.


Right - it's just sheer musical indifference or incompetence. I'm shocked at how often record companies make these types of errors. The worst culprits are the Janowski Dresden RING on Eurodisc, and the 1962 Parsifal on Philips.



> They must be at the limit on at least one of the discs. I think 78' to 80' minutes is the technical limit for a cd.


I'm not sure that there is a technical limit. Although some older players balk with longer CD's, I have a couple that are in excess of 83 minutes and play perfectly.


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> But the Tristan, Act 1 is over 82 minutes and they put it on one disc.


Really? Well I always understood there were technical constraints that prevented us from getting anything longer than 80'. Perhaps in thirty odd years there's something they're not telling us and they can get more onto a disc. I think it would also revolve round the technology of the CD player that would allow it to read discs with a lot more digital information on them.

Anything I've found on the internet puts the audio limit at 80'. So who knows. As Wkasimer has noted there are CDs out there that are longer. I think I may have a couple myself. Maybe the sound quality suffers a little in the process.

Anybody else out there want to weigh in on this?


----------



## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> Really? Well I always understood there were technical constraints that prevented us from getting anything longer than 80'. Perhaps in thirty odd years there's something they're not telling us and they can get more onto a disc. I think it would also revolve round the technology of the CD player that would allow it to read discs with a lot more digital information on them.
> 
> Anything I've found on the internet puts the audio limit at 80'. So who knows. As Wkasimer has noted there are CDs out there that are longer. I think I may have a couple myself. Maybe the sound quality suffers a little in the process.
> 
> Anybody else out there want to weigh in on this?


Redbook CD standard set by Philips/Sony original engineers was for 74 minutes of playback on 120mm disc, longer times can now be achieved by decreasing pitch allowing more closely spaced data.......they can squeeze up to 85 minutes but rarely done, this CD has 85 minutes but vast majority still stay under 80 minutes


----------



## Jeffrey Smith

DavidA said:


> According to Culshaw he heard Solti conduct Walkure at Frankfurt in 1948 and decided he was 'the great Wagner conductor of our time'. I think Knappersbusch was also in the running as he was a favourite of Culshaw, but after making the first act of Walkure with him decided he could not work with Kna under studio conditions. He said that recommending they did not record Tristan with Kna was 'the bitterest professional recommendation of my life.' Of course, the inexperienced Solti was chosen, which at the time was madness with Karajan available and in Vienna. Karajan was highly displeased that he wasn't chosen to record it with 'his' opera orchestra and and did his best to disrupt the Tristan sessions by demanding sessions of his own. Uhl of course was completely new to tristan and had to learn the role from scratch, Windgassen being tied to DG at the time


I have the Solti Wagner set issued in 2012. The liner notes say he first conducted Wagner in 1947, first Walkure and then T&I, in Munich, and mention the latter as being conducted in 1954, in Frankfurt.

The performance that impressed Culshaw was in 1950, of Walkure. The notes quote him as saying, "It affected me more than any other Wagner performance I have ever heard. It was not the best I had heard, but it was the most unified; it was a conception; and it was theater"
ETA
He also conducted T&I in San Francisco in 1953. He recorded Rheingold two years before T&I, and was planning a second recording of T&I at the time of his desth.


----------



## amfortas

wkasimer said:


> There are very, very few Parsifal performances with third acts in excess of 80 minutes - Kna in 1951, and a couple of Levine performances, and that's about it.


As I recall, at least one of the Levine _Parsifal_s has Act III spread over three discs.

Or maybe it just seemed that way.


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## Itullian

continued below............


----------



## Itullian

Which of these Tristan's for the best sound?
:tiphat:


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## Granate

^^

1. Don't know
2&3 are the same remaster. 3 Has the libretto but it's OOP.
4. Very slight differences ... (see below)

wkasimer on all the Mark Obert-Thorn Wagner transfers on Naxos:



wkasimer said:


> I own all of these, and have also owned the releases by the original owner (Decca or EMI). In almost every case, when I compared, I preferred Obert-Thorn's transfer. The differences were generally slight, but audible on careful listening. The only exception is the Furtwängler Tristan, where I thought that they sounded different, but that I preferred the EMI by a slight margin.





Granate said:


> I've just finished listening to the (complete) EMI ART release of Tristan und Isolde. Review coming soon after the whole Nilsson-Windgassen series. I just listened to the Prelude and Liebestod of Act III for the Naxos. The remaster is quite different. Naxos tries to give more layers to the orchestra and more surround experience than EMI, but the official wins for cleanness, also, voices sound clearer, but that is a slight opinion from excerpts.


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## Jeffrey Smith

NB
The 1986 EMI remaster was put out to pasture with Brilliant, and available fairly cheaply on Amazon MP 







There's two listings for it. The cheaper one is ASIN B001RIGDH8


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## Granate

Look what I found on the internet! Parsifal 1951 with Swiss design! Any ideas?


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## DarkAngel

^^^^ The CD version of 51 Parsifal has been widely available on Naxos label, very worthy from both its performance level and historical significance, many here have it.....the vinyl version you show should be fine also

I still can't figure out what is going on with that vinyl cover art and where those lower arms/legs come from, are they sitting on something


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## wkasimer

Granate said:


> Look what I found on the internet! Parsifal 1951 with Swiss design! Any ideas?


Ah, memories! My first Parsifal!


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## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Which of these Tristan's for the best sound?
> :tiphat:


For me there is no noticeable sound difference, but for complete booklet with libretto you get the GROC edition which is very pricey but nice package. I listen to the Pristine XR version where I do hear an improvement in sound but it is more expensive than used CD versions you show

Those generic brown cover EMI budget releases I find kinda ugly, they are there to compete with lower price Naxos and other labels that release copies of older albums


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## Granate

DarkAngel said:


> ^^^^ The CD version of 51 Parsifal has been widely available on Naxos label, very worthy from both its performance level and historical significance, many here have it.....the vinyl version you show should be fine also.


Of course I have it, DA. I want to give it away :scold: and get Bayreuth 52!


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## DarkAngel

Granate said:


> Of course I have it, DA. I want to give it away :scold: and get Bayreuth 52!


52 looks like almost same cast and conductor, is there a secret you want to tell us........


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## wkasimer

DarkAngel said:


> 52 looks like almost same cast and conductor, is there a secret you want to tell us........


Perhaps he's a Kurt Böhme completist?


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## Granate

DarkAngel said:


> 52 looks like almost same cast and conductor, is there a secret you want to tell us........


From my Parsifal challenge in Mono, some months ago...



Granate said:


> *4th: Hans Knappertsbusch, Bayreuther Festspiele 1951*
> 
> The biggest let-down. This one was one of your favourites and, even being the first of Knappertsbusch to be listened to, it never struck me. It's really well sung except for a Windgassen in diapers that annoys me with his whiny Parsifal. Second though, is the slow, soporific pace of Knappertsbusch despite the really good conducting, like in the Amfortas "Erbarme, erbarme!" full of dramatic impulse. Weber, Uhde, London and Mödl are in prime voice and excellent in the performance. The sound is not a wonder either.
> 
> [...]
> 
> *1st: Hans Knappertsbusch, Bayreuther Festspiele 1952*
> 
> And finally, this recording is the best Parsifal of this challenge in my opinion. The style develops the ideas of 1951 with contemplation but without abusing the broad tempo. The cast and the chorus, almost identical, has improved significantly. Acts I and III are excellent. Weber performs his best Gurnemanz in Bayreuth, not only in the highlights, like a real Heldenbass. I really like how Knappertsbusch is listening to him. George London also improves his already excellent Amfortas and the Erwarme magic is here again and Mödl's Kundry makes her best entrance scene. Act II lowers the bar with a very fine Uhde as Klingsor but a decent, rough Kundry by Mödl. The good news is the new maturity in Windgassen. Act III is really intense, superb for London and Weber. It would be my choice if it weren't for Act II.


----------



## Itullian

New Orfeo release. '58 Tristan.
Opinions?


----------



## Granate

Itullian said:


> New Orfeo release. '58 Tristan.
> Opinions?


The cover is pretty


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## wkasimer

Itullian said:


> New Orfeo release. '58 Tristan.
> Opinions?


It's on Spotify if you have access. I'm listening to Act 1 now; the sound is good, but Nilsson sounds slightly out of sorts, but to be honest, I'm not a big fan of BN on recordings, and she often sounds somewhat out of sorts to me. Windgassen, predictably, sounds fresher than he did for Bohm in 1966, but it's still not a very attractive sound. I'll probably just stick to the commercial 1966 version for its better sound and better King Mark and Brangane. Glad to hear Erik Saeden, though - a hugely underrated Swedish baritone.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> New Orfeo release. '58 Tristan.
> Opinions?


This has been out previously under Myto label, I purchased it few years ago but now pricey used at Amazon.....the 57 Bayreuth also with Sawallisch is preferred and gets more plays by me at home


----------



## arbiter elegantiarum

Lovers of the musical continuity rejoice!










This new Birgit Nilsson anniversary set contains some nice surprises (track listing can be found here: https://www.deccaclassics.com/en/cat/4832787).

The complete Solti Ring in recent remastering occupies 13 CDs. Each act of Siegfried gets its own disc (!), which was not the case neither in deluxe nor in budget editions, where the recording was spread over four discs:
https://www.deccaclassics.com/en/cat/4783702
https://www.deccaclassics.com/en/cat/4788370

The complete Bohm Ring in new remastering (!) occupies 12 CDs.

Both older Philips and Decca boxes (which were the same remasterings)
https://www.deccaclassics.com/en/cat/4460572
https://www.deccaclassics.com/en/cat/4782367
had the splits in Rheingold, acts 2 and 3 of Walkure, all three acts of Siegfried, and acts 1 and 3 of Gotterdammerung.

The Eloquence remastering (https://www.amazon.de/dp/B00AX20AHI) presented the act 3 of Walkure and each act of Siegfried on separate CD, but the final act of Gotterdammerung, which could have easily fit onto one disc, had an unnecessary split.

This time, each act of Walkure (!), each act of Siegfried, as well as act 2 and act 3 of Gotterdammerung, is conveniently located on the single CD.

Each act of the Leinsdorf Walkure also gets its own disc, with CD2 lasting the whole 87:25 minutes (!!!). The recent Eloquence reissue (https://www.amazon.de/Die-Walküre-Nilsson/dp/B00B2M7API) was also on three discs but act 2 was split.

Both the Solti and the Bohm Tristans, as well as the Gerdes Tannhauser, has each act on separate CD. The Solti Tristan is a new remastering from recent deluxe edition, with bonus rehearsal material (included only on Blu-ray in that edition). The Bohm Tristan is apparently not from the similar deluxe edition.

I do not own this new set yet. The audio quality of the remastered Bohm Ring is especially interesting.


----------



## wkasimer

arbiter elegantiarum said:


> Lovers of the musical continuity rejoice!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This new Birgit Nilsson anniversary set contains some nice surprises (track listing can be found here: https://www.deccaclassics.com/en/cat/4832787).
> 
> The complete Solti Ring in recent remastering occupies 13 CDs. Each act of Siegfried gets its own disc (!), which was not the case neither in deluxe nor in budget editions, where the recording was spread over four discs:
> https://www.deccaclassics.com/en/cat/4783702
> https://www.deccaclassics.com/en/cat/4788370
> 
> The complete Bohm Ring in new remastering (!) occupies 12 CDs.
> 
> Both older Philips and Decca boxes (which were the same remasterings)
> https://www.deccaclassics.com/en/cat/4460572
> https://www.deccaclassics.com/en/cat/4782367
> had the splits in Rheingold, acts 2 and 3 of Walkure, all three acts of Siegfried, and acts 1 and 3 of Gotterdammerung.
> 
> The Eloquence remastering (https://www.amazon.de/dp/B00AX20AHI) presented the act 3 of Walkure and each act of Siegfried on separate CD, but the final act of Gotterdammerung, which could have easily fit onto one disc, had an unnecessary split.
> 
> This time, each act of Walkure (!), each act of Siegfried, as well as act 2 and act 3 of Gotterdammerung, is conveniently located on the single CD.
> 
> Each act of the Leinsdorf Walkure also gets its own disc, with CD2 lasting the whole 87:25 minutes (!!!). The recent Eloquence reissue (https://www.amazon.de/Die-Walküre-Nilsson/dp/B00B2M7API) was also on three discs but act 2 was split.
> 
> Both the Solti and the Bohm Tristans, as well as the Gerdes Tannhauser, has each act on separate CD. The Solti Tristan is a new remastering from recent deluxe edition, with bonus rehearsal material (included only on Blu-ray in that edition). The Bohm Tristan is apparently not from the similar deluxe edition.
> 
> I do not own this new set yet. The audio quality of the remastered Bohm Ring is especially interesting.


Glad to hear that they *finally* got these right after all these years and umpteen reissues. Perhaps someone at Universal might have a chat with his opposite at BMG, to discuss the latter's RING recording with Janowski, which BMG keeps screwing up.

This probably isn't enough, though, to make me buy the Nilsson set.


----------



## Granate

arbiter elegantiarum said:


> Lovers of the musical continuity rejoice!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This new Birgit Nilsson anniversary set contains some nice surprises (track listing can be found here: https://www.deccaclassics.com/en/cat/4832787)...


Hello and nice to meet you (because I don't think I have seen you during this long time in the forum). I'd love to know how are the CD envelopes. Which material are they made of? Are they tight? And how are their covers?

If you could upload a picture, could you please take one of the 12 envelopes of the Böhm Ring?

I'm very happy with my 2013 Eloquence box and I still don't pass any Nilsson role apart from Brünnhilde. I hope you enjoy the big set.


----------



## arbiter elegantiarum

wkasimer said:


> This probably isn't enough, though, to make me buy the Nilsson set.


The individual releases of the newly remastered items will follow, I believe.



Granate said:


> Hello and nice to meet you (because I don't think I have seen you during this long time in the forum). I'd love to know how are the CD envelopes. Which material are they made of? Are they tight? And how are their covers?
> 
> If you could upload a picture, could you please take one of the 12 envelopes of the Böhm Ring?
> 
> I'm very happy with my 2013 Eloquence box and I still don't pass any Nilsson role apart from Brünnhilde. I hope you enjoy the big set.


Hello and thank you for your kind words. As noted in the earlier post, I don't own the Nilsson set yet.

According to the Decca site, all CDs have the original sleeves, probably in the digipak format:

"Handsome packaging includes CDs presented in wallets with a spine and with original sleeve art."
https://store.deccaclassics.com/*/B...che-Grammophon-Philips-Recordings/5TZ50FG8000

Here is a sample picture: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71wBAgXQyPL._SL1500_.jpg


----------



## wkasimer

arbiter elegantiarum said:


> The individual releases of the newly remastered items will follow, I believe.


Which gives me the option to buy the Solti cycle for the *fifth* time....


----------



## arbiter elegantiarum

Here we go. The Leinsdorf Walkure is already available separately:

https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/8442879--wagner-die-walkure


----------



## wkasimer

arbiter elegantiarum said:


> Here we go. The Leinsdorf Walkure is already available separately:
> 
> https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/8442879--wagner-die-walkure
> 
> View attachment 104576


I don't believe that they're offering physical product, at least not yet - these are downloads.


----------



## arbiter elegantiarum

wkasimer said:


> I don't believe that they're offering physical product, at least not yet - these are downloads.


That's right. Duration of the tracks preceding and following the break in act 2 is shorter as compared with the previous release (https://www.deccaclassics.com/en/cat/4704432) and is identical with the new Nilsson set.

Apparently, the fade-out and fade-in silences were eliminated, resulting in the uninterrupted act 2 in this download.


----------



## The Conte

DarkAngel said:


> 52 looks like almost same cast and conductor, is there a secret you want to tell us........


Whilst the 1951 was a historic night, the 1952 performance totally eclipses it. Yes, it's the same cast and only a year later, but the opera comes to life in a way that makes the 1951 feel really flat. The 1952 is my favourite Moedl Kundry.

N.


----------



## GeorgeMcW

Hi everyone, 
I am new to the TC forum, and new to this thread. This is really the first thread I have been following closely since I joined and it’s taken me a while to go through it all, and I finally got there. In the past six weeks – maybe more now – it started on Birgit Nilsson’s 100th birthday – I have been almost exclusively listening to Wagner’s Ring, with a spattering of some Act II Tristan and Act II Parsifal thrown in. 
My Wagner experience has mostly been listening incessantly for months to Karl Bohm’s Bayreuth Tristan ’66 15 years ago after seeing it at the ROH. Since then, I had put Wagner (and opera) down altogether. Recently with Nilsson’s birthday, that reignited my interest and I was ready to get back into it. 
I just wanted to thank everyone on this thread for all their comments and opinions, as it’s been wonderful to go away and listen to different recordings, especially the 50s Bayreuth recordings. It's open a whole new world for me - Hans Hotter's Wotan, Astrid Varnay's Brunnhilde, Jon Vickers as Siegmund.. 
So far – in the past 6 weeks, I hv listened to (on Spotify):
Bohm Bayreuth 66/67 
Solti Ring
Leinsdorf 62 LSO
Keilberth 52
Trying to listen to Furtwangler’s 1950 La Scala, but the sound quality on Spotify isn’t great. I have followed the comments here about Pristine's remaster - one day when i'm ready i will take the plunge. 
Just begun Krauss 53 

Also wanted to say – big respect to all you Wagnerians for knowing all these performances so well.


----------



## GeorgeMcW

Does anyone know the difference between these 4 Clemens Krauss 1953 releases - which has the best quality / sound?


----------



## Granate

GeorgeMcW said:


> Does anyone know the difference between these 4 Clemens Krauss 1953 releases - which has the best quality / sound?


No idea about the Myto digital releases. There are no versions on CD and Spotify manipulates enough pitch.

I think that Opera D'Oro uses the same if not similar Archipel remaster. It's a new 2013 box that is quite inexpensive in Amazon US.










TBH, the ODO box already has excellent sound quality because of the source tapes and Orfeo is slightly cleaner in voices. Not lot's of differences. I've had the privilege to listen to the Pristine remasters of the Krauss ring and, unlike the both Furtwängler Ring remasters, I can say it's easily the best remastered edition of the Krauss performances. Very prominent, brilliant.

If you want to save money, get the ODO and you'll get a very pretty, picturesque box with illustrations.



GeorgeMcW said:


> I just wanted to thank everyone on this thread for all their comments and opinions, as it's been wonderful to go away and listen to different recordings, especially the 50s Bayreuth recordings. It's open a whole new world for me - *Hans Hotter's Wotan, Astrid Varnay's Brunnhilde, Jon Vickers as Siegmund*...












All three in one of my favourite _Walküres._ The 1957 one was unbearable for me. Poor Nilsson.



> Trying to listen to Furtwangler's 1950 La Scala, but the sound quality on Spotify isn't great. I have followed the comments here about Pristine's remaster - one day when i'm ready i will take the plunge.












Don't forget that Pristine Streaming exists, for $10 a month!


----------



## Itullian

Hi George!
And welcome to our Wagner fan thread.
For the most part, the Orfeo releases are supposed to be
from the original tapes, not copies, so would have the best sound.
Plus they have very nice packaging and notes.
I have the Orfeo and the Opera D'Oro sets.
The Orfeo is slightly clearer, but costs much more.
So it depends on if the difference is worth it to you.
And again, Welcome


----------



## Barbebleu

GeorgeMcW said:


> Hi everyone,
> I am new to the TC forum, and new to this thread. This is really the first thread I have been following closely since I joined and it's taken me a while to go through it all, and I finally got there. In the past six weeks - maybe more now - it started on Birgit Nilsson's 100th birthday - I have been almost exclusively listening to Wagner's Ring, with a spattering of some Act II Tristan and Act II Parsifal thrown in.
> My Wagner experience has mostly been listening incessantly for months to Karl Bohm's Bayreuth Tristan '66 15 years ago after seeing it at the ROH. Since then, I had put Wagner (and opera) down altogether. Recently with Nilsson's birthday, that reignited my interest and I was ready to get back into it.
> I just wanted to thank everyone on this thread for all their comments and opinions, as it's been wonderful to go away and listen to different recordings, especially the 50s Bayreuth recordings. It's open a whole new world for me - Hans Hotter's Wotan, Astrid Varnay's Brunnhilde, Jon Vickers as Siegmund..
> So far - in the past 6 weeks, I hv listened to (on Spotify):
> Bohm Bayreuth 66/67
> Solti Ring
> Leinsdorf 62 LSO
> Keilberth 52
> Trying to listen to Furtwangler's 1950 La Scala, but the sound quality on Spotify isn't great. I have followed the comments here about Pristine's remaster - one day when i'm ready i will take the plunge.
> Just begun Krauss 53
> 
> Also wanted to say - big respect to all you Wagnerians for knowing all these performances so well.


Good to have you with us G. We Wagnerians on this forum are always glad to see fresh blood. Welcome again and don't be frightened to chip in. We don't bite - often!:lol:


----------



## wkasimer

Itullian said:


> Hi George!
> And welcome to our Wagner fan thread.
> For the most part, the Orfeo releases are supposed to be
> from the original tapes, not copies, so would have the best sound.
> Plus they have very nice packaging and notes.
> I have the Orfeo and the Opera D'Oro sets.
> The Orfeo is slightly clearer, but costs much more.
> So it depends on if the difference is worth it to you.
> And again, Welcome


I agree completely. The best sound is from Orfeo, but the Opera d'Oro is a lot better than their usual.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Hi George!
> And welcome to our Wagner fan thread.
> For the most part, the Orfeo releases are supposed to be
> from the original tapes, not copies, so would have the best sound.
> Plus they have very nice packaging and notes.
> I have the Orfeo and the Opera D'Oro sets.
> The Orfeo is slightly clearer, but costs much more.
> So it depends on if the difference is worth it to you.
> And again, Welcome





> I agree completely. The best sound is from Orfeo, but the Opera d'Oro is a lot better than their usual.


This is pretty much universally true that Orfeo will have best sound because of access to original radio broadcast media, however if Pristine XR remaster is available like the 53 Krauss & 50 Furtwangler Rings it is better still......I have heard nothing with better sound than Pristine XR for Wagner remasters.

BTW not to ignore Myto and Walhall because they can really sound very good at lower prices for the iconic 1950s to early 1960s Bayreuth Wagner


----------



## GeorgeMcW

My goodness!! Just been listening to the Orfeo Krauss Ring whilst working out in the gym. It’s immense! Thanks everyone. 

And thanks Granate - I wasn’t aware of Pristine Streaming. This is like early Christmas. I’ve read in this thread enough that you’re all great at helping others spend money on Wagner. Another rabbit hole ... here I come. 

And I will get to the ‘58 Knap. Trying to go chronologically... somewhat. 

My current litmus tests are Act 3 Walkure, Act 3 Siegfried and Act 1 Gotterdammerung. Given this is a 15/16 hour cycle, what are some of yours?


----------



## Granate

GeorgeMcW said:


> My current litmus tests are Act 3 Walkure, Act 3 Siegfried and Act 1 Gotterdammerung. Given this is a 15/16 hour cycle, what are some of yours?


Hmmmm. My "litmus test"... I don't know if you mean the parts that are most important to you in the Ring or any other work. I really feel pity for those members of the forum that try a Bruckner cycle listening to No.7. WRONG! You know how many stong conductors don't pass the test there?

In the Ring, I would try Scenes 3-4 of _Das Rheingold;_ Act I from Die Walküre, *indeed*  Act III from _Siegfried_ and Act I from _Götterdämmerung._

Why would you miss the Siegmund-Sieglinde-Hunding epic tale? Also slices of Wotan and Erda in _Das Rheingold_ and _Siegfried;_ Brünnhilde and Siegfried in _Siegfried_ and _Götterdämmerung_ Then lots of extras in _Das Rheingold_ and _Götterdämmerung._


----------



## DarkAngel

GeorgeMcW said:


> My goodness!! Just been listening to the Orfeo Krauss Ring whilst working out in the gym. It's immense! Thanks everyone.
> 
> And thanks Granate - I wasn't aware of Pristine Streaming. This is like early Christmas. *I've read in this thread enough that you're all great at helping others spend money on Wagner. Another rabbit hole ... here I come. *
> 
> And I will get to the '58 Knap. Trying to go chronologically... somewhat.
> 
> My current litmus tests are Act 3 Walkure, Act 3 Siegfried and Act 1 Gotterdammerung. Given this is a 15/16 hour cycle, what are some of yours?


Before you go broke or take out a 2nd mortgage remember Tidal streaming has many historical wagner sets included for a low monthly subscription fee.....including masters 24/96 resolution streams of Solti and Karajan Rings


----------



## mountmccabe

Das Rheingold: When the light hits the gold. Loge's narration.
Die Walküre: The last bit when Wotan thinks he has a chance (Nichts lerntest du). Siemund says no to Brünnhilde.
Siegfried: Siegfried tells Mime to remake Nothung. The Woodbird speaks to Siegfried.
Götterdämmerung: Dawn after Alberich melts away.

My intent was to list non-flashy scenes that I find telling. I missed the mark for Die Walküre; those are two of the very best scenes of that opera, along with the final scenes of acts 1 and 3. A lot of this is about the orchestra, but there'sat least a taste of the major singers.


----------



## GeorgeMcW

DarkAngel said:


> Before you go broke or take out a 2nd mortgage remember Tidal streaming has many historical wagner sets included for a low monthly subscription fee.....including masters 24/96 resolution streams of Solti and Karajan Rings


Thank DA. I don't even have a CD player at the moment, so streaming is the only way to go.


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## GeorgeMcW

I am still totally floored by this Krauss 53 Ring. Hans Hotter brings such musculature to this role here, and Varnay’s voice so full of fire and warmth. And the orchestral playing + Krauss’s directing - utterly exhilarating and engaging. 

Think I’ll stay here for a while.... not ready to move to my next Ring just yet.


----------



## DarkAngel

GeorgeMcW said:


> I am still totally floored by this Krauss 53 Ring. Hans Hotter brings such musculature to this role here, and Varnay's voice so full of fire and warmth. And the orchestral playing + Krauss's directing - utterly exhilarating and engaging.
> 
> Think I'll stay here for a while.... not ready to move to my next Ring just yet.


https://www.pristineclassical.com/collections/artist-clemens-krauss/products/paco040

If you have a good computer sound system listen to that extended 53 Walkure sample from Pristine XR website, the unmasking and clarity now in the lower strings and brass is really amazing compared to any other version, Hotter is literally "godlike" here....what a true artist he is in every sense of the word!


----------



## Guest

GeorgeMcW said:


> Does anyone know the difference between these 4 Clemens Krauss 1953 releases - which has the best quality / sound?
> 
> View attachment 105288
> 
> View attachment 105289
> 
> View attachment 105290
> 
> View attachment 105292


Any reason for excluding the one released by Pristine?


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## The Conte

GeorgeMcW said:


> I am still totally floored by this Krauss 53 Ring. Hans Hotter brings such musculature to this role here, and Varnay's voice so full of fire and warmth. And the orchestral playing + Krauss's directing - utterly exhilarating and engaging.
> 
> Think I'll stay here for a while.... not ready to move to my next Ring just yet.


Have you heard the Keilberth 53 Ring? I think the singers are even better than on the Krauss! I realise you are enjoying the Krauss for now, however, when you are ready for your next Ring I would bear it in mind.

N.


----------



## GeorgeMcW

DarkAngel said:


> https://www.pristineclassical.com/collections/artist-clemens-krauss/products/paco040
> 
> If you have a good computer sound system listen to that extended 53 Walkure sample from Pristine XR website, the unmasking and clarity now in the lower strings and brass is really amazing compared to any other version, Hotter is literally "godlike" here....what a true artist he is in every sense of the word!


Arggh! I don't unfortunately. Only listening through my headphones right now. Nothing amped up. It's a sore point in my household - space concerns. My wife doesn't want speakers cluttering the room.


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## GeorgeMcW

shirime said:


> Any reason for excluding the one released by Pristine?


Because that wasn't available on Spotify premium. I just signed on to Pristine streaming, and still working my way around the site. Having teething problems right now.


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## wkasimer

shirime said:


> Any reason for excluding the one released by Pristine?


1) It's hideously overpriced.
2) It's likely to be one of the listed CD recordings, tarted up by Pristine. I'd rather hear what's actuallyi in the original source, not some engineer's sonic preference.


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## Itullian

Been listening to this for the past few days.
Overall I think it's the best Meister.
2 caveats, Not very good sound and Schock
is like a bull in a china shop.
Kempe conducts a warm, lively reading
and Grummer is just heavenly. And so is the quintet.
Franz is an excellent Sachs.

Come on EMI. Release this again remastered, please.
With act 1 complete on its own disc.


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## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> Been listening to this for the past few days.
> Overall I think it's the best Meister.
> 2 caveats, Not very good sound and Schock
> is like a bull in a china shop.
> Kempe conducts a warm, lively reading
> and Grummer is just heavenly. And so is the quintet.
> Franz is an excellent Sachs.
> 
> Come on EMI. Release this again remastered, please.
> With act 1 complete on its own disc.


Don't think it's physically possible to put act 1 on one disc! Is it not 80+ minutes?
Btw I agree about this Meistersinger but I'm not as anti-Schock as you are Itullian.


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## Itullian

Barbebleu said:


> Don't think it's physically possible to put act 1 on one disc! Is it not 80+ minutes?
> Btw I agree about this Meistersinger but I'm not as anti-Schock as you are Itullian.


It can be done Barb.
Reference. the new Decca Wagner editions. And in the Nilsson box set.


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## amfortas

Itullian said:


> It can be done Barb.
> Reference. the new Decca Wagner editions. And in the Nilsson box set.


If they can put the entire '63 Karajan Beethoven symphony cycle on a single Blu-ray, they can do anything.


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## Woodduck

Itullian said:


> Been listening to this for the past few days.
> Overall I think it's the best Meister.
> 2 caveats, Not very good sound and Schock
> is like a bull in a china shop.
> Kempe conducts a warm, lively reading
> and Grummer is just heavenly. And so is the quintet.
> Franz is an excellent Sachs.
> 
> Come on EMI. Release this again remastered, please.
> With act 1 complete on its own disc.


This was my first Meistersinger on LP, and I can see in fond memory the big brown box with the title in big, gold, faux-German lettering. I'll call it a classic and a library essential, probably the finest version on record. Frantz is a little past his best, a little opaque of tone, but he has the character down. Schock is a bit strenuous, but suitably ardent; Walther isn't a complex character. Everyone else is impeccable, with Grummer leading the loveliest quintet after the old classic with Elisabeth Schumann, Schorr and Melchior. Kempe conducts with palpable love and a perfect sense of proportion. And let's put in a word for the glorious choir of St. Hedwig's Cathedral! You'll never hear its like in the opera house.

Yes, EMI. A remaster please!


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## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Been listening to this for the past few days.
> Overall I think it's the best Meister.
> 2 caveats, Not very good sound and Schock
> is like a bull in a china shop.
> Kempe conducts a warm, lively reading
> and Grummer is just heavenly. And so is the quintet.
> Franz is an excellent Sachs.
> 
> Come on EMI. Release this again remastered, please.
> With act 1 complete on its own disc.












Better sound does exist for a price with Pristine XR, big label remaster will likely never appear.......

I really like Schock as Walther, his prize song as good as any I have heard, overall performance better than Hopf who appears in many mid/early 1950s meisters



> Don't think it's physically possible to put act 1 on one disc! Is it not 80+ minutes?
> Btw I agree about this Meistersinger but I'm not as anti-Schock as you are Itullian.


Act one can fit on one CD, total time 79.54 
A few modern CDs have 84-85 minutes but most companies still don't usually go over 80....








Modern 85 minutes CD

BTW if you stream music using Tidal, Spotify etc you never have to worry about CD breaks again


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## Itullian

Actually the price for the Pristine recording is not really that bad
$42.00 us.
Does anyone know if they put Act 1 complete on the first disc?
The site doesn't say.


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## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Actually the price for the Pristine recording is not really that bad
> $42.00 us.
> Does anyone know if they put Act 1 complete on the first disc?
> The site doesn't say.


No sorry, three tracks of Act 1 on CD2......unless you download and listen to streaming version of Pristine XR










I really like Knap 52 Bayreuth version.......great sound with Hopf as Walther (not my fav, he dominates this role during this time hard to avoid) but you get Otto Edelmann - Sachs and Lisa Della Casa - Eva.....NICE!!!!!

Worthy companion to famous 51 Karajan while he was still invited to Bayreuth
(Edelmann, Hopf, Schwarzkopf)


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## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> No sorry, three tracks of Act 1 on CD2......unless you download and listen to streaming version of Pristine XR
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I really like Knap 52 Bayreuth version.......great sound with Hopf as Walther not my fav (he dominates this role during this time hard to avoid) but you get Otto Edelmann - Sachs and Lisa Della Casa as Eva.....NICE!!!!!


I'm surprised at that. Andrew Rose usual shifts things around for that reason.
I can't figure out how to work Spotify or Tidal.
I'll check youtube for the Knap 52.


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## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> I'm surprised at that. Andrew Rose usual shifts things around for that reason.
> I can't figure out how to work Spotify or Tidal.
> *I'll check youtube for the Knap 52*.


Complete version..........


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> No sorry, three tracks of Act 1 on CD2......unless you download and listen to streaming version of Pristine XR
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I really like Knap 52 Bayreuth version.......great sound with Hopf as Walther (not my fav, he dominates this role during this time hard to avoid) but you get Otto Edelmann - Sachs and Lisa Della Casa - Eva.....NICE!!!!!
> 
> Worthy companion to famous 51 Karajan while he was still invited to Bayreuth
> (Edelmann, Hopf, Schwarzkopf)


I have the Karajan on Naxos. It's excellent. One of my favorites.


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## Itullian

Just picked this up at Presto for half price. 
It's been in my basket for over a year. 
Excellent sale on there right now.


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## Bill H.

DarkAngel said:


> No sorry, three tracks of Act 1 on CD2......unless you download and listen to streaming version of Pristine XR
> 
> I really like Knap 52 Bayreuth version.......great sound with Hopf as Walther (not my fav, he dominates this role during this time hard to avoid) but you get Otto Edelmann - Sachs and Lisa Della Casa - Eva.....NICE!!!!!
> 
> Worthy companion to famous 51 Karajan while he was still invited to Bayreuth
> (Edelmann, Hopf, Schwarzkopf)


Some years ago I did my own remix of a download of the Kempe Meistersinger, and while my Act I timing is just a little longer (about 80 mins 18 sec), it's possible it *might* fit on a single CD with some of today's burning software. But I did a similar split to others, leaving about 13 mins off the first disk and adding it to the complete Act II on the 2nd.

The download link for the CD splits (mp3 only) is here, if anybody wants a copy: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByTWd_3f2RpSaGg3Y2RLYk8yVEE

It's not going to sound exactly like the Pristine version (I knew less then about how to do re-equalization), but even now I think it reasonably listenable. Each disk is a separate folder, so if you aren't beholden to burning to a disk, you can always re-arrange/merge the folders by Acts instead.


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## Barbebleu

Bill H. said:


> Some years ago I did my own remix of a download of the Kempe Meistersinger, and while my Act I timing is just a little longer (about 80 mins 18 sec), it's possible it *might* fit on a single CD with some of today's burning software. But I did a similar split to others, leaving about 13 mins off the first disk and adding it to the complete Act II on the 2nd.
> 
> The download link for the CD splits (mp3 only) is here, if anybody wants a copy: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByTWd_3f2RpSaGg3Y2RLYk8yVEE
> 
> It's not going to sound exactly like the Pristine version (I knew less then about how to do re-equalization), but even now I think it reasonably listenable. Each disk is a separate folder, so if you aren't beholden to burning to a disk, you can always re-arrange/merge the folders by Acts instead.


Thanks Bill H. You come up trumps as usual. I'll give it a listen and compare with what I have at the moment. I used to have this on cassette if anyone remembers what they were like. What were we thinking?


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## Barbebleu

Bill H. said:


> Some years ago I did my own remix of a download of the Kempe Meistersinger, and while my Act I timing is just a little longer (about 80 mins 18 sec), it's possible it *might* fit on a single CD with some of today's burning software. But I did a similar split to others, leaving about 13 mins off the first disk and adding it to the complete Act II on the 2nd.
> 
> The download link for the CD splits (mp3 only) is here, if anybody wants a copy: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByTWd_3f2RpSaGg3Y2RLYk8yVEE
> 
> It's not going to sound exactly like the Pristine version (I knew less then about how to do re-equalization), but even now I think it reasonably listenable. Each disk is a separate folder, so if you aren't beholden to burning to a disk, you can always re-arrange/merge the folders by Acts instead.


Getting old is no joke. I downloaded this the last time you posted this BillH! Doh! I'm going to do a proper comparison this time.


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## Granate

In four days, the 2018 Bayreuth Festival kicks off with the performance and broadcast of the new Lohengrin, and all the other operas in the programme are also going to be broadcasted by BR and, I guess, repeated by my national classical music radio, Radio Clásica. Last year, the operas were available for download in high broadcasting quality from the Web for a limited time. Do you want to stay tuned to the broadcasts in this thread? I'll post the links for each act of the operas so you can download them on time.


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## howlingfantods

Barbebleu said:


> Thanks Bill H. You come up trumps as usual. I'll give it a listen and compare with what I have at the moment. I used to have this on cassette if anyone remembers what they were like. What were we thinking?


definitely sounds better than the EMI to me from the first few minutes I listened to. I don't have the Pristine for this one so I can't compare those. What software/techniques do you do Bill? Is this pretty easy to achieve or something that's pretty painstaking effort?


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## DarkAngel

During one of our Tristan discussions here long ago I mentioned the 41 MET radio broadcast as being perhaps the best of the Melchior/Flagstad Tristan recordings (their last nationwide MET broadcast together) available on CD with stellar cast and decent sound:

















Pristine XR has done a new remaster from excellent condition acetate discs with the usual astonishing sound results, this completes a Melchior/Flagstad MET hat trick for Pristine XR with previous MET 41 Tannhauser and 40 Walkure

Itullian will be pleased with complete Act 1 on CD 1......

https://www.pristineclassical.com/products/paco150










The best Flagstad liebestod is still 49 broadcast recital here:


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## Itullian

Thank you for your wonderful post DA.
All I can say about that sound sample is.....wow.
It sounds great!


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## Ragnar

I wish Pristine would use their XR on Melchoir Gotterdammerung. Then a Rheingold from the same era. I have both the Melchoir Flagstad Walkure and Siegfried. Be nice to have a complete Melchoir cycle


----------



## interestedin

The 1941 Tristan is (or was?) also available from Walhall. Comparing the Liebestod of Pristine to the one of Walhall, there is little difference except for Pristine's the stereo effect of course...


----------



## Bill H.

Ragnar said:


> I wish Pristine would use their XR on Melchoir Gotterdammerung. Then a Rheingold from the same era. I have both the Melchoir Flagstad Walkure and Siegfried. Be nice to have a complete Melchoir cycle


If that's the '36 Götterdämmerung, I'll put in a vote for it too. On the Met's own big box release, the sound is damn near unlistenable.


----------



## howlingfantods

interestedin said:


> The 1941 Tristan is (or was?) also available from Walhall. Comparing the Liebestod of Pristine to the one of Walhall, there is little difference except for Pristine's the stereo effect of course...


I have the Gebhardt, not the Walhall, but when I listen to a sample of the Walhall on Amazon, there's a ton more surface noise.

https://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Tristan-Isolde-York-1941/dp/B00B6EMVLA

The Pristine sample seems obviously loads better sounding than my Gebhardt and the Walhall samples I hear on Amazon.

Edited since after further review, I'm not sure the Walhall and the Gebhardt are much different from each other on either surface noise or presence/airiness fronts.


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## Bill H.

howlingfantods said:


> definitely sounds better than the EMI to me from the first few minutes I listened to. I don't have the Pristine for this one so I can't compare those. What software/techniques do you do Bill? Is this pretty easy to achieve or something that's pretty painstaking effort?


Thanks for asking and for your kind words. There are various software packages one can use, even a free one like Audacity has some capability in this area. The one I use is a German package, and it has more features in it than I prefer to use, because it's set up for a wider range of recording sources than I provide, which are either digital downloads or my own LP transfers. I use three basic steps on the files--denoising/declicking (the latter if an LP source), parametric equalization, and sometimes ambient modification. I like parametric EQ better than discrete, because it's more gradual in effect and is infinitely adjustable. The ambience addition helps with some of the boxier-sounding mono recordings; I suspect it's similar in nature to Pristine's "Ambient Stereo". I think professionals like Rose have software 'acoustic modules' available to them that can recreate a specific hall's acoustics (maybe even Bayreuth?), which I don't have in my civilian version. The denoising/declicking is the trickiest part--you can set an average solution for an entire recording, but if the noise/swish level varies along the way (which happens a lot), then it also requires manual declicking (tedious) and perhaps additional pass-throughs with the software's denoising algorithms. But everything you do in this area can introduce unwanted artifacts to the sound, or cut out some of the musical frequencies, so it's always something that has to be checked by one's ears. But even then, one's ears are subjective, so what sounds good today may sound terrible tomorrow, or sound hideous to someone else who doesn't share your taste in how a vintage recording should sound. That's why there are plenty of folks who openly disparage what Mr. Rose at Pristine does, but others who swear by the way the sound gets opened up by his reworking of it.

The one other thing I usually do is make my own track splits, especially on long files/transfers. As the years have gone by I find it's worthwhile to try to add in accurate metadata for the files--anybody who has ever tried to search/access classical music files on many download or streaming sites can probably cite experiences where the data associated with the file makes it difficult to find, or useless to catalog.


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## amfortas

Bill H. said:


> If that's the '36 Götterdämmerung, I'll put in a vote for it too. On the Met's own big box release, the sound is damn near unlistenable.


For that reason, maybe Rose will never tackle it. Doesn't he focus on recordings that have real hope of improvement?


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## Granate

interestedin said:


> The 1941 Tristan is (or was?) also available from Walhall. Comparing the Liebestod of Pristine to the one of Walhall, there is little difference except for Pristine's the stereo effect of course...


My second favourite Tristan by Flagstad and Melchior. I like the dark and deep feeling of the sound and the conducting. But it was unlucky enough to count with a terribly bored Melchior (I can imagine Flagstad kicking him in the liebestod so he wakes up).


----------



## Itullian

My birthday treat: 




























Half price at Presto


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> My birthday treat:


Happy birthday Itullian. Hope it is/was great one. I have a big one in September. My wife is pestering me to give her ideas but honestly, I haven't a clue what to get. Mind you, malt whisky and Amazon vouchers never go amiss!!:lol:


----------



## The Conte

interestedin said:


> The 1941 Tristan is (or was?) also available from Walhall. Comparing the Liebestod of Pristine to the one of Walhall, there is little difference except for Pristine's the stereo effect of course...


That's the version I have and I have always been suspicious of Pristine's upgrades. Some people rave about them and say that you can hear the difference on the samples on the Pristine website. Whenever I have compared, Pristine comes off worse or sounds the same. Thanks for the feedback. I'll stick with Walhall.

N.


----------



## Itullian

Barbebleu said:


> Happy birthday Itullian. Hope it is/was great one. I have a big one in September. My wife is pestering me to give her ideas but honestly, I haven't a clue what to get. Mind you, malt whisky and Amazon vouchers never go amiss!!:lol:


Thank you very much Barb. :tiphat:
Can't wait to get them.
I hope you get what you want


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> Thank you very much Barb. :tiphat:
> Can't wait to get them.
> I hope you get what you want


Well given that I want to be twenty again I'm not holding out much hope!:lol: I'll be, gulp, seventy. Seventy years on this mudball and I can say, without fear of contradiction, that I'm no wiser now than I was when I first came mewling into it. 
I have always, where possible, lived my life according to one simple rule - Do no harm. Hopefully I've been successful more often than not.


----------



## Ragnar

Bill H. said:


> If that's the '36 Götterdämmerung, I'll put in a vote for it too. On the Met's own big box release, the sound is damn near unlistenable.


Yes it is the 36 Gotterdammerung I mean. As far as I know that is the only complete Melchior Gotterdammerung we have. I have it on Naxos. It's listenable but not often. I for one love the work Rose does at Pristine. I still hope he tries to improve it. As well as a Rheingold from that era, maybe the one in the Naxos boxset.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Just picked this up at Presto for half price.
> It's been in my basket for over a year.
> Excellent sale on there right now.





> I wish Pristine would use their XR on Melchoir Gotterdammerung. Then a Rheingold from the same era. I have both the Melchoir Flagstad Walkure and Siegfried. Be nice to have a complete Melchoir cycle





> If that's the '36 Götterdämmerung, I'll put in a vote for it too. On the Met's own big box release, the sound is damn near unlistenable.


All the Naxos Ring operas sold individually, but boxset saves shipping cost etc....and don't expect a nice booklet like typical Orfeo set. The 36 Gott sound does leave much to be desired in current form......

















Sony's MET wagner boxset unfortunately does not improve upon the sound of the Naxos 36 Gotterdammerung despite having access to MET media historical resources........was expecting more in sound dept but boxset package is very worthy

Sony MET boxset also has the famous 40 Walkure (naxos has 41 walkure), here there is no contest the Pristine XR sweeps the field in sound quality, an amazing restoration by Rose......


----------



## Itullian

Had to add this gem to my treat 
$20


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Had to add this gem to my treat
> $20


You are on a roll, don't stop now...........

64 Parsifal?


----------



## Itullian

^^^^^^ahhh, that price


----------



## Granate

*Lohengrin Bayreuth 2018 production by Yuval Sharon*

First pictures of the new 2018 Lohengrin in Bayreuth:







































Stefan Mauß said:


> The staging of the new #Lohengrin in #BayreutherFestspiele looks like the attempt of a first class primary school of Maya the bee...





MilymeterA said:


> Could just repost this with slightly altered names. High as a kite after listening on @BR_KLASSIK and only able to speak in emoji
> Thielemann (new Lohengrin speed record?)
> Zeppenfeld even better than in London, that prayer was
> Beczala - wowwowwow
> #BFLohengrin


Latest report: wide round of applause for the cast after Act I. The staging is "old-school" and Beczala is on fire according to an user. Another agrees that Harteros sounds a bit stressed.


----------



## interestedin

Granate, are you able to _watch_ the livestream in Spain? I'm not in Germany right now so it doesn't work.


----------



## Granate

interestedin said:


> Granate, are you able to _watch_ the livestream in Spain? I'm not in Germany right now so it doesn't work.


No. I'm updating the twitter feed. There was one accout that was able to put screenshots. I'll keep reporting!

18:05:












interglossa said:


> I just heard the interview with Yuval Sharon on @BR_KLASSIK from @WagnerFestival at today's #lohengrin performance. I wonder what Wieland would have thought of his take on the drama as a study in blind obedience to authority.


18:18:



Christian White said:


> Lohengrin sounding very authentic so far. Beczała sounding heavenly, Konieczny the best since Uhde, Zeppenfeld colourful, Waltraud is Waltraud, Silinš luxury casting, Harteros not up to their level unfortunately. Thielemann's conducting is absolutely top. I feared the worst for Waltraud because of the passage of time, I was wrong, she is excellent here; still head and shoulders above other interpreters of Ortrud. You can hear the years for experience in the voice and how she negotiates the higher parts. Master singing.#BFlohengrin


18:30: HQ picture: Wow. General great praise for Waltraud Meier. More doubts about Anja Harteros.


----------



## Granate

19:05












urldanny said:


> Was just listening to the Lohengrin broadcast from @WagnerFestival and I have to say #WaltraudMeier is still the most epic Ortrud ever  Every word is sung with such depth!! THIS is how Wagner should be sung!!! #BFLohengrin


I guess Act II is about to finish. Many people even in Germany are complaining about the BR streaming signal going down. The American Wagner & Heavy Metal is even using VPN.

Ugh, that Elsa wedding dress.

19:20

Some users are thinking Hartero's Elsa has improved significantly in Act II but she's still slightly below her partners, maybe after warming up in Act I and recucing her vibrato. Wide praise for Meier's Ortrud.

But I hope this isn't true :



WagneroperaNet said:


> Friedrich just asked Elsa if he could chop off a bit of her beloved's finger #BFLohengrin


19:44:



> #Lohengrin @WagnerFestival 2nd act. *Flies instead of mice*, #rembrandt + radiator - a stylish walk trough centuries in ink blue colour. Love old fashioned baroque theatre stage. #harteros much better, #waltraudmeier old style Primadonna ortrud #wickedwichofthewest. A party of beauty


----------



## Granate

I streamed the last act of Lohengrin when I went for a walk, so I wasn't updating any timeline on Twitter. They are right about Thielemann's speed. Bombastic and fast. Not only swift. Harteros was improving herself throughout the tough duet but I felt both Lohengrin and Elsa had issues with the sharp notes. I don't know how to rate Beczala. Not my favourite but could compete with James King. Harteros... can certainly sing Brunnhilde.

The staging production team has met with applause and a few noisy whistles when they went onstage. It reflects my twitter feed indeed. I guess people are more like complaining about the costumes. I didn't like them either.










To sum it up: pay a listen to this broadcast or try to watch the production. It's likely to be praised in the following days


----------



## pianoville

Where do you watch this broadcast?


----------



## The Conte

Oh great! I can't wait to see it. I'm going to the penultimate performance! I like the fairytale aspect to the production.

N.


----------



## Granate

pianoville said:


> Where do you watch this broadcast?


All the pictures I've posted in this thread are the only ones I've seen. The people who have streamed from BR the opera have had lots of trouble in and out of Germany. Others were lucky enough to watch in cinema.

Last year, someone uploaded the complete 2017 Meistersinger on Youtube (the broadcast rip).

Two of the three acts of Lohengrin are available in RNE Clásica. When the third shows up I'll put the links here so you can download them legally from the source, if you don't know to do it with other broadcaster.


----------



## Granate

*Streaming links*

Wagner: _Lohengrin_
Bayreuther Festspiele 2018
25.7 premiere

*Act I - Act II - Act III*

Available for streaming for a limited time. If you want to download them. Copy the link and paste it into a link aggregator like jdownloader. At this time, only Act I can be downloaded adding the link to the program. The others should should also do that in hours.


----------



## Azol

Could anyone share their thoughts on this? The First Boulez Ring Cycle, but this edition in particular. The price seems very steep - does publisher offer something like improved sonics/booklet/etc?

http://www.norpete.com/op3270.html


----------



## wkasimer

Azol said:


> Could anyone can share their thoughts on this? The First Boulez Ring Cycle, but this edition in particular. The price seems very steep - does publisher offer something like improved sonics/booklet/etc?
> 
> http://www.norpete.com/op3270.html
> View attachment 106019


I know the performance; someone posted the cycle to one of the music sharing groups many years ago. The sound on that version was fine, but I have no idea whether the above recording represents an improvement, and at that price, I'm not about to find out.

It is, though, an excellent performance. The cast is similar to the one recorded commercially, but since it was four years earlier, some of the singers sound fresher, and there are cast differences, mostly positive (Kollo was certainly superior to Manfred Jung, for example). It's certainly worth hearing, but not necessarily at that price, unless the sound is absolutely spectacular.


----------



## Itullian

Azol said:


> Could anyone can share their thoughts on this? The First Boulez Ring Cycle, but this edition in particular. The price seems very steep - does publisher offer something like improved sonics/booklet/etc?
> 
> http://www.norpete.com/op3270.html
> View attachment 106019


Check operadepot.com
It's a good cycle.
I think someone said its cheaper there.


----------



## Azol

I am aware about merits of this 1976 Ring, but I wonder if anyone has heard this particular edition. I wonder which source they utilized.


----------



## howlingfantods

Azol said:


> I am aware about merits of this 1976 Ring, but I wonder if anyone has heard this particular edition. I wonder which source they utilized.


It's apparently remastered by... Yves Saint Laurent? I didn't realize they were so active in the field of live classical music remastering.... I'll have to tell my wife that my interests are in fact the height of fashion.


----------



## Itullian

Just ordered these two based on recommendations here.
And great prices.
Walhall hasn't let me down yet


----------



## Granate

Itullian said:


> Just ordered these two based on recommendations here.
> And great prices.
> Walhall hasn't let me down yet


----------



## DarkAngel

> Just ordered these two based on recommendations here.
> And great prices.
> Walhall hasn't let me down yet


^^^^ Cluytens began his Bayreuth run with 55 Tannhauser which was greeted with much success and he was invited back for many more wagner performances.....56 Tristan (Vienna) comes from this productive successful wagner period, always good to get any wagner recording with Grob-Prandl me thinks.....










57 Tristan Sawallisch has the same couple that later sang the famous 66 Bohm Bayreuth, here in freshest youthful voice........


----------



## Itullian

This arrived last night and I couldn't wait to hear it.
Wow, this is a great Tristan! I'd put it up with Karajan's '52 Tristan.
First, the sound is excellent with a well behaved audience.
The singers are great too.
Nilsson sounds as good as I've heard her. Her voice full and strong.
Windgassen is full voiced and sings with passion.
The rest of the cast is excellent too with a bonus of Hotter as Kurwenal.
I'm always amazed how good the sound is on these Walhall issues.
I like the sound here better than the EMI sound for Karajan.
They do a great job of remastering to 24 bit/ 96 kHz.
At $13.00 a super bargain.
Highly recommended.

Thanks for the heads up DA. :tiphat:


----------



## Itullian

Rapidly becoming a favorite Meistersinger.
Edelmann is a Perfect Sachs and Schwarzkopf a perfect Eva.
Hopf is pretty good here and Karajan conducts with warmth and 
and brings out the joy in this wonderful opera.
Oh, the sound on this Naxos issue is very good.


----------



## Itullian

Arrived today


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Arrived today


This was first recording of a planned complete Furtwangler EMI studio Ring (before Decca Solti/Culshaw) with supremely divine VPO, unfortunately Furtwangler died very shorty after this was completed......Pristine XR also has this

Better studio sound and orchestra than the live 53 Ring Walkure with Italian Radio Symphony Orchestra and almost same cast


----------



## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> This was first recording of a planned complete Furtwangler EMI studio Ring (before Decca Solti/Culshaw) with supremely divine VPO, unfortunately Furtwangler died very shorty after this was completed......


I find Modl, Suthaus, Rysanek and Frantz all below or past their best form. Hear it for Furtwangler's conducting, veteran Klose's take-no-prisoners Fricka, and the ever-reliable Frick.


----------



## Itullian

An attempt to review this Tristan
It took me by surprise, as I started the first disc, to hear applause before the act started.
Looking at the excellent Amazon review on the set I discovered it was probably
a concert performance.
I totally agree with that review.
Grob-Prandl as Isolde is wonderful, Bohme is a good King Marke and Blankenheim is a good Kurwenal.
Rudolf Lustig is dodgy as Tristan, sometimes ok, sometimes not. Makes you realize how great Treptow, Vickers, Windgassen and Vinay were.
The recording is nice clean mono with a bit of breakup on Isolde's highest notes, forward voices and not as rich as the better 50's Wagner recordings.
A nice plus is that the acts are complete on their own discs.
A second tier Tristan then, not in the same class as Karajan '52 
or Sawallisch '57.
I am glad I got it though for Grob-Prandl's beautiful Isolde.
Cheers :tiphat:


----------



## Granate

Itullian said:


> A second tier Tristan then, not in the same class as Karajan '52
> or Sawallisch '57.
> I am glad I got it though for Grob-Prandl's beautiful Isolde.
> Cheers :tiphat:


Good... Glad you reviewed it. The sound of the recording still makes me blush. Rudolf Lustig is the only downer of the recording, and it wouldn't have made my purchase list if I hadn't been "just" satisfied with his Act III. It's the closest I can get to a stereo recording, like the Solti Vienna one, but without his furious conducting, Nilsson's Alban-Berg-style Isolde or Culshaw's SFX meddling. Just swift and grandiloquent conducting by André Cluytens with a mangnificient orchestra.


----------



## Itullian

Woodduck said:


> I find Modl, Suthaus, Rysanek and Frantz all below or past their best form. Hear it for Furtwangler's conducting, veteran Klose's take-no-prisoners Fricka, and the ever-reliable Frick.


They sound pretty dang good to me Woodduck.
But I'm no an expert, just a listener.
I know this, I had chills at the end of acts 1 and 3.
And at points during act 2.
And Furty is fabulous!
Franz and Modl and Suthaus sounded fine to me.
I love this recording :tiphat:


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> They sound pretty dang good to me Woodduck.
> But I'm no an expert, just a listener.
> I know this, I had chills at the end of acts 1 and 3.
> And at points during act 2.
> And Furty is fabulous!
> Franz and Modl and Suthaus sounded fine to me.
> I love this recording :tiphat:


I like how EMI recorded this close to the "bayreuth sound" with 60/40 emphasis on voice vs orchestra, while Decca Solti is reversed 40/60 with bombastic orchestra at times......

Beautiful sound with world class orchestra for Furtwangler to weave his Wagner magic, I think most impressive is wotan of Frantz, this performance the closest 2nd of anyone I have heard of matching Hans Hotter in his prime, he uses all kinds of vocal color and nuance with riveting characterization, he has even darker low voice to sound even more commanding as in Wotan's farewell summoning Loge, no wonder he was a favorite of Furtwangler.....

Some may wish for Windgassen's Siegmund vs Suthaus (as in live 53 Italian RSO) but really strong cast overall (Flagstad had retired Brunhilde role) and personally I prefer Varnay over Modl for Brunhilde but enough minor quips, an essential Wagner document for sure!


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> I like how EMI recorded this close to the "bayreuth sound" with 60/40 emphasis on voice vs orchestra, while Decca Solti is reversed 40/60 with bombastic orchestra at times......
> 
> Beautiful sound with world class orchestra for Furtwangler to weave his Wagner magic, I think most impressive is wotan of Frantz, this performance the closest 2nd of anyone I have heard of matching Hans Hotter in his prime, he uses all kinds of vocal color and nuance with riveting characterization, he has even darker low voice to sound even more commanding as in Wotan's farewell summoning Loge, no wonder he was a favorite of Furtwangler.....
> 
> Some may wish for Windgassen's Siegmund vs Suthaus (as in live 53 Italian RSO) but really strong cast overall (Flagstad had retired Brunhilde role) and personally I prefer Varnay over Modl for Brunhilde but enough minor quips, an essential Wagner document for sure!


I agree on all counts DA. I think one can nitpick anything, but over all
a great Walkure.
Suthaus rises to the occasion in the ending of act 1 and, to my ears,
Franz is magnificent in the magic fire music. Love his voice.
And I thought Rysanek was great too.

Just think if Furtwangler could have finished his project of the whole Ring!
What a cycle that would have been!


----------



## Woodduck

^^^ Y'all have made me wonder whether my memories of the Furtwangler studio _Walkure_ have yellowed a bit. Listening again, I have to admit that Suthaus, here 48, is very fine in his part, but I've never found his thick, dark, slightly nasal, "Germanic" timbre very gratifying. It had a little more metal in it earlier in his career (1930s and '40s). His gargled "r" annoys me too. But a highly intelligent artist, certainly, understandably liked by Furtwangler. Frantz, also 48, is rather similar - heavy, thick, dark and nasal - and he too had more spin and brightness in his voice earlier on. As for the ladies, my feelings about Modl's gusty, chesty vocal production are well-known here, and not all the dramatic projection in the world can make listening to her a pleasure. More surprising is Rysanek, only 28 in 1954, whose sluggish vibrato and weak low notes make her sound twenty or thirty years older. Her famous high notes are certainly present, but the rest of the voice hardly seems to belong to the same singer. Margarete Klose, one of the strongest exponents of Wagner's mezzo parts (never surpassed as Ortrud), is clearly not young but is still potent and secure at age 52, and no one on records is sharper at cutting Wotan down to size. That leaves Gottlob Frick, rock-solid as always.

This is a group of solid, experienced Wagnerians firmly grounded in the idiom and immersed in their roles, and I'd be happy to hear a _Walkure_ today as good as this one even if the vocalism here is not quite, on the whole, golden age material. But it's enough to remind us of what we're missing.


----------



## DarkAngel

^^^ Modl does strangely sound less convincing here vocally than her Bayreuth performances from same time period, she does give strong acting of part as usual, a missed opportunity then

Listen to bass baritone Frantz in improved Pristine XR sound of Act 3, he sounds great to me (but I am not a singer)......

Starting at 2:10 there is scrolling reprint of 1955 Gramophone review.....


----------



## Itullian

I just had to have Alberich as Sachs


----------



## wkasimer

Woodduck said:


> This is a group of solid, experienced Wagnerians firmly grounded in the idiom and immersed in their roles, and I'd be happy to hear a _Walkure_ today as good as this one even if the vocalism here is not quite, on the whole, golden age material. But it's enough to remind us of what we're missing.


I'm probably biased because this was my "imprint" Walkure, but I agree. Frantz, Modl, and Klose are all a bit past their best, but it's still a pretty potent cast. As for Suthaus, I'm not sure that sounded all that much different or better a decade earlier.

Frantz, BTW, is heard to much better effect on a broadcast recording from a few years earlier, with Rudolf Moralt conducting.


----------



## Woodduck

wkasimer said:


> I'm probably biased because this was my "imprint" Walkure, but I agree. Frantz, Modl, and Klose are all a bit past their best, but it's still a pretty potent cast. As for Suthaus, I'm not sure that sounded all that much different or better a decade earlier.
> 
> Frantz, BTW, is heard to much better effect on a broadcast recording from a few years earlier, with Rudolf Moralt conducting.


My impressions of Suthaus are based mainly on a comparison his 1952 studio Tristan with a few YouTube bits and the live Berlin _Tristan_ from 1947:

https://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Trist...533571064&sr=1-6&keywords=tristan+furtwangler

I do think he was a very solid singer and a fine artist who simply didn't have a very beautiful sound, but of course that's a matter of taste. I think we'd be fortunate to have as good a heldentenor around now.


----------



## wkasimer

Woodduck said:


> My impressions of Suthaus are based mainly on a comparison his 1952 studio Tristan with a few YouTube bits and the live Berlin _Tristan_ from 1947:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Trist...533571064&sr=1-6&keywords=tristan+furtwangler


A truly great performance (pity we don't have more of it, though) - the difference between this 1947 performance and the 1952 studio Tristan is largely due to live performance vs. studio, less about Suthaus' vocal state. I have him in a 1943 Meistersinger, and he sounds rather like he did a decade later.


----------



## Itullian

Gonna give my layman's review of this recording.
First of all, the sound is very good. Clear and clean with good bass.
I found no weak spots in the cast.
Grummer is fantastic as always and Neidlinger's is full and strong.
The big surprise to me was the Walther of Walter Geisler.
He's fantastic! Strong voiced with a beautiful tone.
His prize song is among the best imo.
Where'd they get this guy? 
The quintet is excellent with Grummer and Geisler soaring.
My only quibble is with Sach's ending Verachtet.
I wish Neidlinger would have held the notes a bit longer.
It seems to me he cuts them a bit short.
Maybe because Cluyten's tempo is a bit fast.
But an excellent Meister and a cast with no weak links.
Cluytens conducting is lively and warm.
Alberich did ok.


----------



## Itullian

Arrived today.


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> Arrived today.


Quite the spending spree lately! Excellent!:tiphat:


----------



## Itullian

Barbebleu said:


> Quite the spending spree lately! Excellent!:tiphat:


I couldn't resist the Presto sale.


----------



## Itullian

I was going through my Wagner cd's and came across this gem.
I forgot that I even had it!
What a gem it is.
The 1938 sound is very good.
And it's great to have Hermann Nissen's Sachs as he was the great Sachs of his time.
The rest of the cast is very good too, even though I hadn't heard of them.
A very nice find 

ps Mind you, this is only Act 3 as the expense to record the whole thing would have been much too expensive at the time.
This was recorded like 3 or so minutes a take as records only held that amount of time back then.


----------



## howlingfantods

Itullian said:


> I was going through my Wagner cd's and came across this gem.
> I forgot that I even had it!
> What a gem it is.
> The 1938 sound is very good.
> And it's great to have Hermann Nissen's Sachs as he was the great Sachs of his time.
> The rest of the cast is very good too, even though I hadn't heard of them.
> A very nice find
> 
> ps Mind you, this is only Act 3 as the expense to record the whole thing would have been much too expensive at the time.
> This was recorded like 3 or so minutes a take as records only held that amount of time back then.


That's an excellent recording. There's a very good Hollander with the same principals too.


----------



## Granate

WHEN THE HELL DID THIS HAPPEN?!

*Wagner: Fliegende Hollander [Bayreuth 1959] [Orfeo D'Or: C936182I]* 

Oh, it was released yesterday.

[HR][/HR]
Wagner Bayreuth recordings by Orfeo so far:


Knappertsbusch Holländer 55
Sawallisch Holländer 59
Cluytens Tannhäuser 55
Sawallisch Tannhäuser 61
Matacic Lohengrin 59
Kempe Lohengrin 67
Karajan TUI 52
Sawallisch TUI 58
Knappertsbusch Meistersinger 60
Böhm Meistersinger 68
Krauss Ring 53
Knappertsbusch Ring 56
Kempe Ring 61
Knappertsbusch Parsifal 64
Ok, so there are 3 Rings and only 1 Parsifal. Counting that the 1951 Parsifal + Meistersinger and the 1953 Lohengrin are mono commercial recordings now owned by Warner (Teldec-Telefunken), there are several performances Orfeo could release:


1955 Parsifal (First release, would be, I think we all agree)
1965 Parsifal (Varnay Kundry) or 1967 Parsifal (Ludwig Kundry probably in Stereo, personal preference)
1954 Lohengrin (I dislike that Nilsson Elsa, but the Archipel remaster wasn't very clean either)
1952 Meistersinger
1965 Holländer (reported to be a triumphant evening for Thomas Stewart)
... Any ideas for a Tristan or Tannhäuser?
Does BR own tapes of anything in the Bayreuth 1952 season?


----------



## WildThing

Itullian said:


> I was going through my Wagner cd's and came across this gem.
> I forgot that I even had it!
> What a gem it is.
> The 1938 sound is very good.
> And it's great to have Hermann Nissen's Sachs as he was the great Sachs of his time.
> The rest of the cast is very good too, even though I hadn't heard of them.
> A very nice find
> 
> ps Mind you, this is only Act 3 as the expense to record the whole thing would have been much too expensive at the time.
> This was recorded like 3 or so minutes a take as records only held that amount of time back then.


You're right, but how I wish there was more than just the one act!

Does anyone have any opinions on this 1944 Karl Böhm recording of Die Meistersinger in Vienna? Is it a studio effort? How does it compare to Abendroth's 1943 Bayreuth performance?


----------



## howlingfantods

WildThing said:


> You're right, but how I wish there was more than just the one act!
> 
> Does anyone have any opinions on this 1944 Karl Böhm recording of Die Meistersinger in Vienna? Is it a studio effort? How does it compare to Abendroth's 1943 Bayreuth performance?


Better Eva, much worse Walther, better sound. Same Sachs and Beckmesser. I think the conducting by Bohm is more special. I think overall a stronger recording but it's definitely held back by Seider. I think this is one of the few Miestersinger performances I can remember thinking I wish the David and the Walther switched places.


----------



## Itullian

My Vickie arrived today


----------



## Itullian

And the '51 Knappy Parsifal.


----------



## wkasimer

howlingfantods said:


> Better Eva, much worse Walther, better sound. Same Sachs and Beckmesser. I think the conducting by Bohm is more special. I think overall a stronger recording but it's definitely held back by Seider.


I agree with your characterization of this recording, but I think that Seider is such a liability that I much prefer the 1943 with Abendroth.



> I think this is one of the few Meistersinger performances I can remember thinking I wish the David and the Walther switched places.


That's what I think every time I listen to the Knappertsbusch commercial recording with Treptow and Dermota.


----------



## howlingfantods

wkasimer said:


> I agree with your characterization of this recording, but I think that Seider is such a liability that I much prefer the 1943 with Abendroth.


Yeah, I can certainly understand that, Seider really is pretty rough. Seefried on the Bohm is lovely though, a fair bit nicer than Scheppan on the Abendroth.


----------



## Itullian

On the way


----------



## Granate

Itullian said:


> On the way


How and when did you win the lottery?


----------



## Itullian

Granate said:


> How and when did you win the lottery?


Some things you just have to jump on.


----------



## Itullian

Listening to this one today.
Awesome.
Thanks DA.


----------



## Granate

Itullian said:


> Some things you just have to jump on.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Listening to this one today.
> Awesome.
> Thanks DA.


I'm sure you saw above in Granate's post this 59 Dutchman now available in deluxe Orfeo release, but the sound of the Myto is really very good so I see little reason to upgrade......

In the past here I was getting getting some shade about London, but he is still in very fine voice with his "vocal crisis" still 2-3 years in the future, a great dutchman along with Uhde and before him Hotter. Rysanek has a string of strong Sentas during this time followed by a young sounding Silja



> My Vickie arrived today


I had to look closely and make sure that Orfeo CD set wasn't 64 Parsifal with "vickers" then I realized it was your beloved Vickie DLA you were swooning over......


----------



## DarkAngel

Regarding Itullin's madness during Presto UK "summer clearance" sale this is not historical but they have the Barenboim La Scala Ring blu ray for only $43.50........

Like all modern Rings some controversial staging decisions along with some strong visuals that actually sometimes work well, and unique in this Ring the inclusion of modern dancers right on stage with singers, we do have some very decent singers with Waltraud Meier, Rene Pape, Nina Stemme etc (but also Mr Lance Ryan )


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> *I'm sure you saw above in Granate's post *this 59 Dutchman now available in deluxe Orfeo release, but the sound of the Myto is really very good so I see little reason to upgrade......
> 
> In the past here I was getting getting some shade about London, but he is still in very fine voice with his "vocal crisis" still 2-3 years in the future, a great dutchman along with Uhde and before him Hotter. Rysanek has a string of strong Sentas during this time followed by a young sounding Silja
> 
> I had to look closely and make sure that Orfeo CD set wasn't 64 Parsifal with "vickers" then I realized it was your beloved Vickie DLA you were swooning over......


I may have DA, but i remembered you posted this in the "Wager on cd" thread I started a while back, as your recommended Dutchman That's why I got it.


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> Regarding Itullin's madness during Presto UK "summer clearance" sale this is not historical but they have the Barenboim La Scala Ring blu ray for only $43.50........
> 
> Like all modern Rings some controversial staging decisions along with some strong visuals that actually sometimes work well, and unique in this Ring the inclusion of modern dancers right on stage with singers, we do have some very decent singers with Waltraud Meier, Rene Pape, Nina Stemme etc (but also Mr Lance Ryan )


This is the same production that I saw in Berlin in 2013. It was, as you say, variable. The dancers were entirely unnecessary and an unwelcome distraction. And I concur with regard to the execrable Lance Ryan. He was desperate.


----------



## Barbebleu

1955 Parsifal (First release, would be, I think we all agree[/QUOTE]

1955 Parsifal? That'll be the day!


----------



## Itullian

Listening to Siegfried from this awesome set.
Furty's reading excellent. The opening darkly ominous.
And EMI's mastering is great. I sometimes forget that it's mono.
I don't know why some don't love this operas as much as the others.
It's so rich in content of amazing music and great atmosphere.
I love this cycle!
And I love this opera!


----------



## Woodduck

Itullian said:


> Listening to Siegfried from this awesome set.
> Furty's reading excellent. The opening darkly ominous.
> And EMI's mastering is great. I sometimes forget that it's mono.
> I don't know why some don't love this operas as much as the others.
> It's so rich in content of amazing music and great atmosphere.
> I love this cycle!
> And I love this opera!


_Siegfried_ consists mainly of a bunch of non-human characters and animals doing fairytale things in a gloomy forest. We don't see the sun or a female personage for three hours, and the moments of human warmth add up to maybe twenty minutes. I guess it's not everybody's thing.

I like it just fine, as long as the performers are good, which is a tall order.


----------



## Itullian

^^^Isn't the whole Ring fairy tale characters?
I don't care, male or female, the music is great!
You didn't mention the music which is fantastic!


----------



## Woodduck

Itullian said:


> ^^^Isn't the whole Ring fairy tale characters?
> I don't care, male or female, the music is great!
> *You didn't mention the music which is fantastic!*


That goes without saying. I'll bet even people who won't sit through the opera like the forest murmurs. It's even better than real birds.


----------



## Granate

Itullian said:


> Listening to Siegfried from this awesome set.
> Furty's reading excellent. The opening darkly ominous.
> *And EMI's mastering is great. I sometimes forget that it's mono.*


Wow. I wish I had your ears, or that I could enjoy the sound of this ring even with speakers. The sound for me only becomes decent by Die Walküre Act II. Throughout the ring the voices are too muddy for me. Furtwängler is the only one to watch out.


----------



## Itullian

Next on my list


----------



## Itullian

^^^^^This is an excellent cycle.
Great voices and full, natural sound.
Recommended.


----------



## Itullian

After liking the performance very much, I wanted this nice edition by Orfeo.
Since I found it new for $24, I had to pull the trigger.
If only they would have put the end of Act 1 on the first disc! 
Act one is only 81 minutes,


----------



## Itullian

This finally arrived today.
Looking forward to hearing it.


----------



## DarkAngel

^^^^ Under the radar sleeper and only Knap recording of Tristan, Treptow goes on to Bayeuth festival for next few years and Frantz very active with Furtwangler, Knap conducting much better than Solti's debut Tristan for Decca......I have this version:


----------



## Itullian

Wow folks! I just may have a new favorite Tristan!
This Knappy 1950 is phenomenal!
Why didn't you tell me about it DA 
First, the sound is great.
And the cast is awesome! Helena Braun was a fantastic Isolde and Treptow an awesome Tristan!
Franz's King Marke was awesome too.
And Knappy seems to me to have just the right tempi.
The liebesnacht was so beautiful I didn't want to leave either 
Orfeo did s great job on the remaster, iy sounds great.
Voices clear and nice bass.
I think so far it's up there with the live Karajan and maybe better!!
Thank you Orfeo.


----------



## DarkAngel

^^^ We talked about it some time ago, Duck has also mentioned it couple times as one to check out.......

Knap (like Furtwangler) has much deeper understanding of almost organic flow of music, better able to create the complex world of emotional turbulance and beauty our lovers navigate.......much better than Decca Solti that we are discussing in that other thread


----------



## Itullian

Act 2 was so beautiful I didn't want it to end 
Yes, Knap sure had a handle on it.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Act 2 was so beautiful I didn't want it to end
> Yes, Knap sure had a handle on it.












For next operadepot sale, 52 Tristan with almost same cast under E Kleiber looks interesting, operadepot says:



> _I am being completely honest when I say that this is one of the best interpretations of Tristan und Isolde I have hever heard. The elder Kleiber probes the depths of sadness, love, joy, sensuality in ways that can't be summed up with any kind of technical description. The result, for me at least, was the sense that I was hearing the opera for the first time._


Braun is a very powerful Isolde, not the most beautiful voice or elegant tone, but she gets deep inside the character like few others (including Nilsson) showing great artistry in her characterization of the role......


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> For next operadepot sale, 52 Tristan with almost same cast under E Kleiber looks interesting, operadepot says:
> 
> Braun is a very powerful Isolde, not the most beautiful voice or elegant tone, but she gets deep inside the character like few others (including Nilsson) showing great artistry in her characterization of the role......


Thanks DA.
It's mono right?
Is it one act per disc?


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Thanks DA.
> It's mono right?
> Is it one act per disc?


3CD live mono very good sound like 50 Knap, but operadepot does not list tracks before purchase......
I suspect E Kleiber 52 Tristan has much faster total run time vs Knap


----------



## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> For next operadepot sale, 52 Tristan with almost same cast under E Kleiber.
> 
> Braun is a very powerful Isolde, not the most beautiful voice or elegant tone, but she gets deep inside the character like few others (including Nilsson) showing great artistry in her characterization of the role......


One reviewer on Amazon describes it this way:

Erich Kleiber was an important and very experienced conductor of this opera; there are extant two other live recordings in Buenos Aires with artists such as Kirsten Flagstad, Set Svanholm and Max Lorenz and as you might expect of the conductor of a famous recording of "Der Rosenkavalier", the love music of Act II and the ecstatic passages such as the "Liebestod" go especially well, but I miss some of the drive and fire of Karajan in the same year at Bayreuth performance or, especially, of Hans Knappertsbusch with almost the same cast in the same venue two years earlier in 1950.

As well as bringing more zip to the dramatic points, despite being two years older that Knappertsbusch recording is in rather better, crisper sound, too: clearer and more forward, whereas here it is rather muddy and recessed - although still quite listenable. I would also say that the commanding Helena Braun is in rather better voice for Kna; here, despite still being very good, she is occasionally a little shrill and just a little wobbly in Act II. The other big cast difference is the casting of one Rudlof Grossmann as Kurwenal. I had not previously heard of him and although he is perfectly serviceable he is not as good as Paul Schoeffler as Kurwenal, tending to labour and shout a bit in his demanding, declamatory music. Otherwise, the only changes of cast are in the small roles of the Steersman and the Young Sailor, here sung very well by two tenors whereas Kna employs only one, doubling up - and also very good.

There is also more coughing and iffly tuning from the woodwind - especially in the Prelude - for Kleiber. Otherwise, Margarete Klose reproduces her rich, eloquent Brangäne and Braun's husband, Ferdinand Frantz is once again a superlative King Mark: deep, rich, resonant and very expressive in his agony of betrayal. Gunther Treptow is if anything even better for Kleiber; occasionally his voice can lose tonal lustre and turn metallic but he is tireless and very touching in his extended dying scene and his tenor is at its best there: both baritonal and penetrating with a suitably youthful tone, rather than than the ageing lover we sometimes have to tolerate. I think he sings the best "dream-vision" - my favourite passage in the whole opera, just before the ship is sighted - on record.

For some impenetrable reason, both Walhall and Myto have inserted a fade-break at the climax of Act I when the effects of the potion oblige the lovers to acknowledge their mutual passion and it concludes at the start of CD2 - really bad timing and surely totally avoidable.

In short, this recording seems like a slightly paler version of the Knappertsbusch triumph of two years previous; still very good but not preferable.


----------



## Itullian

^^^^^Thanks Woodduck !!!


----------



## philoctetes

Haven't scoured this whole thread nor am I a Wagner geek but I see Knappertsbusch so I have to add my enthusiasm for his Gotterdamerung excerpts, they are the best IMO. Plus the tracks in the M&A Bruckner box where Siegfried seems to be playing a harmonica... I think it's usually a horn?


----------



## Itullian

What can one say?
Just AMAZING voices.
Great sound.


----------



## wkasimer

Itullian said:


>


It's a little weird that Walhall gives top billing to the two singers who have the least to sing in this opera, Freia and Froh.


----------



## howlingfantods

wkasimer said:


> It's a little weird that Walhall gives top billing to the two singers who have the least to sing in this opera, Freia and Froh.


Clueless graphic designers are fun. Here's one that I find amusing:









Why yes, that is the obscure and frankly forgettable Stella Andreva in the generally irritating tertiary role of Oscar in the middle, given second billing in the cast list and the prime position on the cover art.


----------



## Woodduck

howlingfantods said:


> Clueless graphic designers are fun. Here's one that I find amusing:
> 
> View attachment 107280
> 
> 
> Why yes, that is the obscure and frankly forgettable Stella Andreva in the generally irritating tertiary role of Oscar in the middle, given second billing in the cast list and the prime position on the cover art.


The grand duchess flanked by chambermaid and footman.


----------



## Itullian

What a beautiful recording this is.
Schwarzkopf is radiant.


----------



## Woodduck

Itullian said:


> What a beautiful recording this is.
> Schwarzkopf is radiant.


Indeed. It's the only recording of the opera I'll ever need.


----------



## Itullian

Woodduck said:


> Indeed. It's the only recording of the opera I'll ever need.


If only Karajan would have stayed this kind of conductor.


----------



## Granate

Itullian said:


> If only Karajan would have stayed this kind of conductor.


Then CD's would only have room for 50 or 60m and you'd never get a Wagner complete act in a single disc.


----------



## davidglasgow

Granate said:


> Then CD's would only have room for 50 or 60m and you'd never get a Wagner complete act in a single disc.


Which says more about him as an administrator than as a conductor?

Older recording equipment and 25 or 30 minute LP sides didn't seem to adversely affect Karajan's artistic achievements like his 1950s Zauberflote, Falstaff, Rosenkavalier and his 1960s Carmen and Don Giovanni: they are arguably all artistically superior than his DDD versions.

Karajan the one-man-recording-industry meant we can listen to 80 minutes of digitally-recorded-Karajan on CD at a time: it's just that we may well wonder what all the fuss was about.


----------



## Granate

davidglasgow said:


> Karajan the one-man-recording-industry meant we can listen to 80 minutes of digitally-recorded-Karajan on CD at a time: it's just that we may well wonder what all the fuss was about.


Maybe *Itullian* caught the joke better: he's *always complaining about Acts been split on 2 CDs and gives advantage to recordings with the complete act on a single disc.* The designers in Philips and Karajan as well were from a classical background, and decided to let CDs play a number of minutes that would fit any Beethoven 9th instead of giving advantage to pop LPs that barely reach the 40m.


----------



## Barbebleu

Why are we seeing Verdi and Strauss in the Historical Wagner Recordings thread. I'm not disagreeing with the sentiments expressed, but I'd rather see them on more appropriate threads.:tiphat:


----------



## amfortas

Barbebleu said:


> Why are we seeing Verdi and Strauss in the Historical Wagner Recordings thread. I'm not disagreeing with the sentiments expressed, but I'd rather see them on more appropriate threads.:tiphat:


Busted!
_______________


----------



## davidglasgow

Granate said:


> Maybe *Itullian* caught the joke better: he's *always complaining about Acts been split on 2 CDs and gives advantage to recordings with the complete act on a single disc.* The designers in Philips and Karajan as well were from a classical background, and decided to let CDs play a number of minutes that would fit any Beethoven 9th instead of giving advantage to pop LPs that barely reach the 40m.


Fair enough  It struck me in particular listening to 78 records recently how much of a revelation the wireless broadcasts must have been - particularly for fans of Wagner. Can you imagine going back to 5 minute durations after listening to an entire broadcast from the Met with Bodansky or whoever in one sitting? Not only that - the records were expensive and the broadcasts were free to everyone.

It takes a bit of a thought nowadays to realise that the sound over radio was surprisingly good for the time and not a poor relation: the problem was recording and reproducing that signal using the technology of the day. There were even records early in the century using Marconi's name which were advertised as "Wonderful as Wireless".


----------



## Woodduck

davidglasgow said:


> Fair enough  It struck me in particular listening to 78 records recently how much of a revelation the wireless broadcasts must have been - particularly for fans of Wagner. Can you imagine going back to 5 minute durations after listening to an entire broadcast from the Met with Bodansky or whoever in one sitting? Not only that - the records were expensive and the broadcasts were free to everyone.
> 
> It takes a bit of a thought nowadays to realise that the sound over radio was surprisingly good for the time and not a poor relation: the problem was recording and reproducing that signal using the technology of the day. There were even records early in the century using Marconi's name which were advertised as "Wonderful as Wireless".


Indeed, It seems to me that radio broadcasts give us some of our best images of the voices of singers in the interwar years.


----------



## davidglasgow

Woodduck said:


> Indeed, It seems to me that radio broadcasts give us some of our best images of the voices of singers in the interwar years.


Definitely. Quite often the radio recordings are valuable because they have more bass and the balance with the orchestra sounds natural. Rosa Ponselle's radio recordings from 1934 are superb and much less inhibited than the studio records: they sound terrific and make you ache that all the records don't sound like that!

More on topic for this thread, I noticed than Jan Peerce was one singer whose voice really benefited from being recorded a little more distantly than you get in a lot of studio records - his voice sounds heftier although the recording quality is not great





A favourite is Flagstad's Tristan und Isolde with Reiner - I think her voice is captured very well there and the orchestra is present and clear





The problem was that although microphones had advanced very quickly, the recording and playback left a lot to be desired.

This is a hi-fidelity test with the lovely Elisabeth Rethberg (in Tannhauser) which is an experiment showing just what the Bell Labs could achieve with the best technology in 1932 - it must have been another 15-20 years before this was achieved generally thanks to continuing effects of the Great Depression and later WW2




Unfortunately, we are more likely to hear reproductions like this noisy and distorted live recording by Rethberg and Melchior in Lohengrin from a few years later




Still glad to have any of these records all the same


----------



## DarkAngel

^^^^ Radio opera broadcasts are absolutely vital archives of opera singing from 1930-50s, before 33 LP vinyl recordings were widely available to public, there was only only 4 minutes of music per side of 78 rpm discs, record companies never bothered to think of recording a wagner opera (or any opera) for public sale that ran 3 hours because of the extreme large number of 78 rpm discs required for playback

I believe the 54 EMI Walkure with Furtwangler was one of the very first studio recorded wagner operas (with 33 lp vinyl now available) although the first one widely released was probably the Decca Rheingold with Solti a few years later....










Jackson's book trilogy details the history of saturday MET radio opera broadcasts starting in 1931 with great info, comments, and great pix of each performance.......RCA radio president Sarnoff convinced MET director to do a trail broadcast with large home radio set-up in his MET office and all were blown away with fabulous results, the rest is history

Many classic MET radio broadcasts are fortunately preserved on high quality archival transcription discs which could store 15 minutes per side and were much higher sound quality than retail records sold to public....eventually magnetic master tape was able to replace this format shortly after WWII

Milton Cross during MET radio broadcast.....


----------



## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> Milton Cross during MET radio broadcast.....


I remember Milton well. He simply WAS the old Met for us in radioland. Back then it was considered sufficient to have one knowledgeable announcer for opera (and broadcast sports). Now we are sucked into the nauseating chumminess and hyping of "Oh Ira! Oh Mary Jo! Oh isn't it glorious? Oh it surely is!" At least they don't gossip about the performers' rankings and love lives during the music the way they do during figure skating.


----------



## wkasimer

DarkAngel said:


> I believe the 54 EMI Walkure with Furtwangler was one of the very first studio recorded wagner operas (with 33 lp vinyl now available) although the first one widely released was probably the Decca Rheingold with Solti a few years later....


The 1954 Walkure was preceded by a couple of other recordings - Kna's Meistersinger with Schoeffler, Gueden, and Treptow, and Kempe's first Meistersinger (with Frantz and Lemnitz). There was also a studio Lohengrin with Jochum, a Tristan conducted by Konwitschny (which predated the Furtwangler Tristan by a couple of years). I'm pretty sure, BTW, that the Furtwangler Tristan got pretty wide circulation when it was issued in 1953.


----------



## Itullian

Second half of Das Rheingold from this awesome set.


----------



## Barbebleu

I'm off on holiday (vacation for my American friends) tomorrow for a couple of weeks. My intended listening, and we'll see how that works out, is 

Tristan - Bayreuth 1974, Munich 1950 and 1952, New York 1960 and the Janowski studio one.
Der Ring - Bayreuth 1962 and 1968.

That's the intention. I will have internet so I may give the odd update.


----------



## Gondowe

Hello guys. Which would be in your opinion the best interpretations of the parts of the Rings of Kna. P.e. DR 57, DW57, etc.
Greetings


----------



## Granate

Gondowe said:


> Hello guys. Which would be in your opinion the best interpretations of the parts of the Rings of Kna. P.e. DR 57, DW57, etc.
> Greetings


I don't quite understand your question ("parts" is a bit ambiguous), but for a conductor of slow pace choices for the Ring des Nibelungen, he can get sometimes really annoying. The 56-58 production of the Rheingold in Bayreuth had a ver particular xylophone sound to resemble a hammer in the descent of the Rhin, which I always despised (minute 1:15:34).






Second though, it's that the slow pace sometimes drives me nuts, as the one used in the 1957 Walküre. However, Knappertsbusch hand always had advantaged for me a particular singer: Astrid Varnay. I'm not a lover of her voice but she became one of my favourite Brünnhildes only under the baton of Knappertsbusch in the years 1957 and 1958. 1957 also counted with a different title performer for _Siegfried:_ Bernd Aldenhoff. Wolfgang Windgassen, although being one of my favourite Siegfrieds, would never do the forging song right until the Böhm Ring in the mid 1960s.

Those years have a cast that could challenge the year 1953 perfectly. *But a combination of the 1957 Ring recordings with the 1958 Walküre is my favourite mono Ring cycle.*

Others can say the expensive Orfeo release of the 1956 ring, but I can't stand its grey sound and Windgassen playing Siegmund und Siegfried. He could have done Loge too to sing in all the operas.


----------



## Itullian

Gondowe said:


> Hello guys. Which would be in your opinion the best interpretations of the parts of the Rings of Kna. P.e. DR 57, DW57, etc.
> Greetings


57 and 58 are so inexpensive you can have both.
The 56 is great too.
Act 3 of Walkure is awesome on '56.
They are all great imho.


----------



## Azol

I believe he was asking which individual recordings by Knappertsbusch are best in your opinion, i.e. Das Rheingold from 57, Die Walkure from 56 etc.
I cannot answer this question as I do not own any Kna's Rings, but I am about to order the boxset from Orfeo (Kna 1956) to amend my collection.


----------



## Granate

Itullian said:


> 57 and 58 are so inexpensive you can have both.


Not right now. Out of all of them, only the 1957 Götterdämmerung is sold for twice its normal price in every Amazon store. Don't pay $25 for that. You can buy the rest of them if you want, Gondowe. Just don't waste your money unnecesarily.

I've been following the price history of the recording for months. I'll warn everyone in the forum when Amazon restores the fairest price (11€).

*ASINs:*
1957: B0010V3M3U, B0010V3M44, B0010V3M4E, B0010V3M4O
1958: B001MKE152, B001MKE15C, B001MKE15M, B001MKE15W


----------



## Gondowe

Azol said:


> I believe he was asking which individual recordings by Knappertsbusch are best in your opinion, i.e. Das Rheingold from 57, Die Walkure from 56 etc.
> I cannot answer this question as I do not own any Kna's Rings, but I am about to order the boxset from Orfeo (Kna 1956) to amend my collection.


Yes thats right, thas was that I mean. But I have the three rings of GM from the time of their publication apart of the krauss keilberth 55, both furt, moralt and many others. But For me, kna was the best and I think DR57, DW57 or 58, S56, and possibly G58 are my favourites. But I wanted to know your opinions.
Greetings.


----------



## wkasimer

Itullian said:


> 57 and 58 are so inexpensive you can have both.
> The 56 is great too.
> Act 3 of Walkure is awesome on '56.
> They are all great imho.


The 1958 Siegfried is superior to the 1957 (and probably the 1956), because it has Gerhard Stolze, a Mime who actually sings the written notes, unlike Paul Kuen, who doesn't.

BTW, a lot of these recordings are available from Berkshire Record Outlet and from Norbeck and Peters, for pretty reasonable prices.


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT

Itullian said:


> Listening to Siegfried from this awesome set.
> 
> I don't know why some don't love this operas as much as the others.


_Siegfried_ is one of my favourites. It was actually the very first opera I saw live - talk about "in at the deep end"! Nonetheless, I loved it then and, nearly four decades later, I still do.


----------



## Itullian

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> _Siegfried_ is one of my favourites. It was actually the very first opera I saw live - talk about "in at the deep end"! Nonetheless, I loved it then and, nearly four decades later, I still do.


I love Siegfried too!


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> I love Siegfried too!


Tweet tweet ........ (only Itullian understands what I say)


----------



## Itullian

Ha! I certainly do!!!
My little woodbird


----------



## howlingfantods

Azol said:


> I believe he was asking which individual recordings by Knappertsbusch are best in your opinion, i.e. Das Rheingold from 57, Die Walkure from 56 etc.
> I cannot answer this question as I do not own any Kna's Rings, but I am about to order the boxset from Orfeo (Kna 1956) to amend my collection.


The 1956 Walkure is probably better than 57 and 58 just because Kna isn't engaging in an audible battle of wills over tempi as he did with Nilsson in 57 and Vickers in 58.


----------



## DarkAngel

howlingfantods said:


> The 1956 Walkure is probably better than 57 and 58 just because Kna isn't engaging in an audible battle of wills over tempi as he did with Nilsson in 57 and Vickers in 58.


I would start with 57 Knap Ring on Walhall label, it has amazing mono sound quality, of all the 1950s Bayreuth mono recordings I have this is the best, they really had the sound dialed in that year..........the performances were mostly all stellar during the 1952-58 iconic era, hard to say one Ring is absolute best

Also Amazon USA prices are still cheap for Wallhall, $12.99 - $14.99 each including prime shipping ($9.99 for Rheingold) so complete Ring for under $60 delivered


----------



## Itullian

^^^^^Agree with DA. They are all great.
The sound of the '57 Knap is amazing.


----------



## Itullian

I was going thru my Wagner cd pile today so I thought I'd post a list of my historical Ring cycles (mono) for your enjoyment 

Knappertsbusch '56, '57, '58
Keilberth '52, '53 '55
Kempe '60
Furtwangler Rai, '50 Scala
Kraus '53

Did I miss any?
What do you have in your collection of these treasures?
:tiphat:


----------



## The Conte

Itullian said:


> I was going thru my Wagner cd pile today so I thought I'd post a list of my historical Ring cycles (mono) for your enjoyment
> 
> Knappertsbusch '56, '57, '58
> Keilberth '52, '53 '55
> Kempe '60
> Furtwangler Rai, '50 Scala
> Kraus '53
> 
> Did I miss any?
> What do you have in your collection of these treasures?
> :tiphat:


Wow, I have only a few of those, but I do have the Walkure and Gotterdaemerung from the second Keilberth 55 cycle. Who's in the Keilberth 52?

N.


----------



## Itullian

The Conte said:


> Wow, I have only a few of those, but I do have the Walkure and Gotterdaemerung from the second Keilberth 55 cycle. Who's in the Keilberth 52?
> 
> N.


Rheingold -
Uhde, Neidlinger, Windgassen, Malaniuk, Witte, Kuen

Walkure -
Treptow, Varnay, Greindl, Stewart, Hotter, Borkh

Siegfried -
Aldenhoff, Varnay, Hotter, Neidlinger, Kuen

Gotterdammerung - 
Lorenz, Varnay, Uhde, Greindl, Stewart, Modl

Pretty awesome, ay?


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> I was going thru my Wagner cd pile today so I thought I'd post a list of my historical Ring cycles (mono) for your enjoyment
> 
> Knappertsbusch '56, '57, '58
> Keilberth '52, '53 '55
> Kempe '60
> Furtwangler Rai, '50 Scala
> Kraus '53
> 
> Did I miss any?
> What do you have in your collection of these treasures?
> :tiphat:


All of them!! Listening to the '58 Walkure at the moment lying by the pool in sunny Spain.


----------



## Granate

Barbebleu said:


> Listening to the '58 Walkure at the moment lying by the pool in sunny Spain.


By the temperature you must be in Klingsor's realms.


----------



## Barbebleu

Granate said:


> By the temperature you must be in Klingsor's realms.


Oh yes. Rather warm here in Marbella. Forecast is not too clever for the weekend though.


----------



## wkasimer

Itullian said:


> Rheingold -
> Uhde, Neidlinger, Windgassen, Malaniuk, Witte, Kuen
> 
> Walkure -
> Treptow, Varnay, Greindl, Stewart, Hotter, Borkh
> 
> Siegfried -
> Aldenhoff, Varnay, Hotter, Neidlinger, Kuen
> 
> Gotterdammerung -
> Lorenz, Varnay, Uhde, Greindl, Stewart, Modl
> 
> Pretty awesome, ay?


Except that I'm not very enthusiastic about the two Siegfrieds or the Siegmund.


----------



## Granate

Barbebleu said:


> Oh yes. Rather warm here in Marbella. Forecast is not too clever for the weekend though.


Too bad we couldn't see our faces. I had to go to Málaga for two days and I'm back home right now. Plenty of British tourists in the metro.


----------



## Gondowe

Im spanish but from the north, now raining and raining and cold. Like in DW 1act


----------



## Granate

At home in the south we've had a cloudy afternoon. Now seeing the golden dusk through my window while I watch my first Pelléas et Mélisande on video. Act III. Haunting.

Wait don't we have a "weather" thread? :lol:


----------



## DarkAngel

Finally some "new wood to chop" for wagner collecters Pristine XR gives us 1961-62 MET Ring Leinsdorf, Andrew Rose will release all 4 operas over next few months, listen to that sound sample just awesome sound!

https://www.pristineclassical.com/products/paco152

From MET archives look at the cast for future issues, Walkure radio broadcast so there will be transcription masters:



> Metropolitan Opera House
> December 23, 1961 Matinee Broadcast
> 
> *DIE WALKÜRE {390}
> Der Ring des Nibelungen: Cycle [83] Uncut
> Richard Wagner--Richard Wagner
> 
> Brünnhilde..............Birgit Nilsson
> Siegmund................Jon Vickers
> Sieglinde...............Gladys Kuchta
> Wotan...................Otto Edelmann
> Fricka..................Irene Dalis
> Hunding.................Ernst Wiemann
> Gerhilde................Carlotta Ordassy
> Grimgerde...............Mary MacKenzie
> Helmwige................Heidi Krall
> Ortlinde................Martina Arroyo
> Rossweisse..............Margaret Roggero
> Schwertleite............Gladys Kriese
> Siegrune................Helen Vanni
> Waltraute...............Mignon Dunn
> 
> Conductor...............Erich Leinsdorf
> *


Note future MET soprano star Martina Arroyo as Rheinmaiden & Valkyrie......


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> Finally some "new wood to chop" for wagner collecters Pristine XR gives us 1961-62 MET Ring Leinsdorf, Andrew Rose will release all 4 operas over next few months, listen to that sound sample just awesome sound!
> 
> https://www.pristineclassical.com/products/paco152
> 
> From MET archives look at the cast for future issues, has to one of these two Walkures from 1961-62 period with Leinsdorf, I suspect it is the 390 version since it is radio broadcast and there will be transcription masters:
> 
> Note future MET soprano star Martina Arroyo as Rheinmaiden & Valkyrie......


Will miracles never cease?
Amazing casts and sound for the period.
Yes, I noticed Martina. Pretty amazing.
Thanks DA :tiphat:


----------



## DarkAngel

If we assume Pristine XR will use radio broadcast performance of 1961-62 Leinsdorf Ring, Siegfried not broadcast but only series during 1961-62 period



> Metropolitan Opera House
> January 2, 1962
> 
> *SIEGFRIED {219}
> Der Ring des Nibelungen: Cycle [83] Uncut
> Wagner-Wagner
> 
> Siegfried...............Hans Hopf
> Brünnhilde..............Birgit Nilsson
> Wanderer................George London
> Erda....................Jean Madeira
> Mime....................Paul Kuen
> Alberich................Ralph Herbert
> Fafner..................Gottlob Frick
> Forest Bird.............Martina Arroyo
> 
> Conductor...............Erich Leinsdorf*
> 
> Metropolitan Opera House
> January 27, 1962 Matinee Broadcast
> 
> *GÖTTERDÄMMERUNG {183}
> Der Ring des Nibelungen: Cycle [83] Uncut
> Wagner--Wagner
> 
> Brünnhilde..............Birgit Nilsson
> Siegfried...............Hans Hopf
> Gunther.................Norman Mittelmann
> Gutrune.................Gladys Kuchta
> Hagen...................Gottlob Frick
> Waltraute...............Irene Dalis
> Alberich................Ralph Herbert
> First Norn..............Jean Madeira
> Second Norn.............Irene Dalis
> Third Norn..............Martina Arroyo
> Woglinde................Martina Arroyo
> Wellgunde...............Rosalind Elias
> Flosshilde..............Mignon Dunn
> Vassal..................Charles Kuestner
> Vassal..................John Trehy
> 
> Conductor...............Erich Leinsdorf
> *


Itullian look at the wood bird - Arroyo!


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> If we assume Pristine XR will use radio broadcast performance of 1961-62 Leinsdorf Ring, Siegfried not broadcast but only series during 1961-62 period
> 
> Itullian look at the wood bird - Arroyo!


Quite a treat, isn't it!


----------



## gardibolt

Nice news about the Leinsdorf Ring. 

Walhall titles are frequently even cheaper at norpete.com, so it's worth checking to see if they have them in stock.

I received the 1955 and 1959 Dutchmen from the Presto sale, but haven't had a chance to listen. I've been knee deep in getting a new Beethoven reconstruction put together, so I'm looking forward to hearing them.


----------



## DarkAngel

Walhall has issued Siegfried & Gott from this MET series, the Pristine XR sound sample (from Rheingold) is much better......

That will not help with Hopf's less than ideal Siegfried performance.....


----------



## Itullian

^^^^^I was thinking that too.
Not a big fan of Hopf.


----------



## wkasimer

DarkAngel said:


> Walhall has issued Siegfried & Gott from this MET series, the Pristine XR sound sample (from Rheingold) is much better......
> 
> That will not help with Hopf's less than ideal Siegfried performance.....


I feel obliged to defend Hopf, who gets a bad rap mostly because of his dreadful Stolzing and not-so-wonderful Tannhauser. His Siegfried may not be perfect, but he's tireless, and actually has a voice of proper weight for the role, unlike virtually every other singer of the role since Melchior. And some of his best singing on record is in non-Wagnerian roles, like Otello and Chenier.

He can be heard to better advantage on the 1960 Bayreuth broadcasts under Kempe, issued by Myto. Not only are the operas better cast, but the sonics are vastly better than these Met broadcasts. I've heard the 1962 Met Siegfried, and this what I had to say (my Amazon review):

"This 1962 Met broadcast has nothing like the excellent sound that one can hear from Bayreuth broadcasts of the same period. This sounds like an AM broadcast, with all of the treble filtered out. I have less of an issue with audience noise, which has never bothered me on recordings (oddly, it bothers me a lot more at a live performance).

"I can say nothing about the conducting, since the sound of the orchestra is so constricted.

"The cast is a very mixed bag. I'm generally a Hopf fan, but the high tessitura in Act 1 shows him at his worst. Oddly, he sounds better, and steadier of tone, in Act 3, after a long afternoon of singing. I look forward to hearing the Gotterdammerung in the cycle, due for release shortly.

"I am generally NOT a fan of Nilsson on recordings, but this seems like one of her better recorded performances. Perhaps it's the recording quality, but she sounds fuller of voice and less strident here than on many of her more famous recordings. London's voice has the right quality for the Wanderer, but the manner is ungainly, the singing rather monochromatic, and as always, his intonation is very problematic. Ralph Herbert is a perfectly good Alberich, but the less said about Paul Kuen's Mime, the better. I've never understood why he was in such great demand in the role, when his singing is so utterly unmusical. I don't believe that he sings a single phrase that remotely resembles what Wagner wrote."


----------



## DarkAngel

WK this will be a good challenge for Andrew Rose remastering sound quality for 62 MET Siegfried, although he may have a much better original media source than Walhall used....


----------



## Gondowe

One question, how many different Gotterdammerung ends are played by Furt and Flagstaf?. I know, Covent Garden 1937, London 1948 and 1952, and Set of la Scala Ring 1950, but I had understood there are more. How many more? And in your opinion which is the best?
Greetings


----------



## Granate

I've been checking out the Wagner news and it turns out that the Nilsson editions released this year look like they are great products on CD.



















(the one below was my own edit. Notice the softer lettering colours)




























What makes me happy is that Decca has restored the original covers of the Wagner recordings I had also edited a year ago. But ours look more different and digital. This is fantastic.

(Continues...)


----------



## Granate

I've listened to excerpts of the 1954 Lohengrin and by the sound and the credits, it seems to be using licensed Bavarian Radio tapes. That is great news for the performance. Other ones sound pristine too.


----------



## howlingfantods

Granate said:


> I've been checking out the Wagner news and it turns out that the Nilsson editions released this year look like they are great products on CD.
> 
> ….
> 
> What makes me happy is that Decca has restored the original covers of the Wagner recordings I had also edited a year ago. But ours look more different and digital. This is fantastic.
> 
> (Continues...)


That's awesome -- where did you get the images of the individual album covers? I know some of these have been released individually, particularly the Sony live ones, but I haven't seen large high quality versions of the individual album covers from the La Nilsson set.


----------



## Granate

^^

The Decca twitter account had been leaking some 1200p digital images of the Nilsson set. 
Search #nilsson100 on twitter.


















Decca pictures from _Elektra_'s recording sessions.


----------



## Scott in PA

Maybe she was singing Turandot at the same time and there was no time for a makeup change??


----------



## Woodduck

^^^No, Brunnhilde is wearing The Valkyrie's Secret eyeliner. "For the woman who loves horses."


----------



## Barbebleu

Although not strictly pertinent to this thread I couldn't think where else to post and I definitely wasn't starting a new thread.

I got these two Eulenberg study scores from my wife for my 70th.

This is the Dramatis Personae for Götterdämmerung on page XII.

Comments anyone?


----------



## Woodduck

Barbebleu said:


> Although not strictly pertinent to this thread I couldn't think where else to post and I definitely wasn't starting a new thread.
> 
> I got these two Eulenberg study scores from my wife for my 70th.
> 
> This is the Dramatis Personae for Götterdämmerung on page XII.
> 
> Comments anyone?


Beautiful present. Are these the full orchestral score? They should be fascinating to follow while listening.


----------



## Barbebleu

Woodduck said:


> Beautiful present. Are these the full orchestral score? They should be fascinating to follow while listening.


Thanks Woodduck. Yes they are full scores. Just Holländer, Walküre and Siegfried to get and I'll have full scores for all the mature operas. 
Look carefully at the second picture. Notice anything?


----------



## Azol

Barbebleu said:


> Look carefully at the second picture. Notice anything?


Hunding is missing


----------



## interestedin

Barbebleu said:


> Notice anything?


Yes, apparently you have a great wife.



Azol said:


> Hunding is missing


But his vassals are there


----------



## Barbebleu

Azol said:


> Hunding is missing


Hunding isn't in Götterdämmerung!


----------



## Barbebleu

interestedin said:


> Yes, apparently you have a great wife.
> 
> But his vassals are there


Yes, I do have a great wife. Hunding isn't in Götterdämmerung so they aren't his vassals!:lol:


----------



## Barbebleu

Here's a clue. "Schläfst du, ....., mein sohn?"


----------



## Barbebleu

Vielen Dank Conte!


----------



## DarkAngel

DarkAngel said:


> Finally some "new wood to chop" for wagner collecters Pristine XR gives us 1961-62 MET Ring Leinsdorf, Andrew Rose will release all 4 operas over next few months, listen to that sound sample just awesome sound!
> 
> https://www.pristineclassical.com/products/paco152












MET Leinsdorf 1961-62 live Ring continues with radio broadcast Walkure remaster for Pristine XR, we have Vickers & Nilsson plus forum fav Irene Dalis (as Fricka) as usual long sound sample post with excellent remastered sound but it is the most overplayed section of Walkure, opening of Act 3.......still listen to that sound quality!

https://www.pristineclassical.com/products/paco153?source=0bc7d21b-ba86-428e-9999-4de319bc155a


----------



## wkasimer

DarkAngel said:


> MET Leinsdorf 1961-62 live Ring continues with radio broadcast Walkure remaster for Pristine XR, we have Vickers & Nilsson plus forum fav Irene Dalis (as Fricka) as usual long sound sample post with excellent remastered sound but it is the most overplayed section of Walkure, opening of Act 3.......still listen to that sound quality!
> 
> [URL]https://www.pristineclassical.com/products/paco153?source=0bc7d21b-ba86-428e-9999-4de319bc155a[/URL][/QUOTE]
> 
> $25 for an MP3 download? I don't think so...


----------



## Azol

Barbebleu said:


> Hunding isn't in Götterdämmerung!


Bah, of course I meant *Hagen*!!!


----------



## Barbebleu

Azol said:


> Bah, of course I meant *Hagen*!!!


I knew you did! Can't believe though that Eulenberg could make such a mistake in the printing. This is the latest critical edition too. Sheesh! Not cheap either. I see on Amazon.com it's $78.
Although I refer to them as miniature scores they are more correctly study scores. Götterdämmerung clocks in at about 2 kilos and is slightly larger than A4, so not so miniature!!
I'm hoping that Santa will bring me either Walküre or Siegfried or, if he's feeling exceptionally generous, both!


----------



## DarkAngel

wkasimer said:


> $25 for an MP3 download? I don't think so...


Actually cheaper than some Presto UK mp3 downloads, most 3 disc Orfeo wagner sets are $30.........
Typical wagner mp3 Presto UK download $7-10 per disc

Pristine was cheaper a couple years ago, but after new website was rebuilt the prices went up, they have sales periodically for lower prices


----------



## Granate

Hello again guys. I'm right now listening and comparing to the 4 Tristan und Isoldes on record from Bayreuth in the 1950s. You know that in my Mono Challenge the Karajan 1952 ranked 3rd after Cluytens Vienna and Furtwängler Milky Way Nirvana.

I was searching for comments on the internet about Astrid Varnay's Isolde, among other Wagner characters, and I found a rumour that I haven't seen discused here (only in a Spanish Wagner forum)

Walhall released recently an elusive Bayreuth _Parsifal_ from 1957, which ranked ok in my challenge.

Parsifal
Bayreuth, July 25, 1957

Conductor: Hans Knappertsbusch (SIC)
Amfortas George London
Titurel Arnold van Mill
Gurnemanz Josef Greindl
Parsifal Ramón Vinay
Klingsor Toni Blankenheim
Kundry Martha Mödl
Altsolo Maria von Ilosvay
Gralsritter Walter Geisler
Gralsritter Otto Weiner
Knappe Paula Lenchner
Knappe Elisabeth Schärtel
Knappe Hans Krotthammer
Knappe Gerhard Stolze
Blume Ilse Hollweg
Blume Friedel Pöltinger
Blume Paula Lenchner
Blume Dorothea Siebert
Blume Lotte Rysanek
Blume Elisabeth Schärtel

Chor und Orchester der
Bayreuther Festspiele

But members of that forum were doubting because they say that maybe this performance wasn't really conducted by Hans Knappertsbusch, but it was one of the Cluytens patches in the 57 season. There should be in fact a performance of Knappertsbusch in the season but with Astrid Varnay playing Kundry. Both Mödl ad Cluytens would be last-minute additions in two performances to relief Knappertsbusch to focus on the Ring production.

What do we know about this season Parsifals? I doubt that the Walhall recording could be a Bavarian Radio broadcast because the sound is really poor, but if Martha Mödl sung was really Knappertsbusch in the pit?

Link to the thread if you want to use Google translate.


----------



## Barbebleu

According to Bayreuth's own database, Cluytens conducted Parsifal on the 25 July 1957. Kna was in the pit for only two performances on 5th and 23rd of August. So if that date is correct for that recording then it's not Kna and it's not Mödl either. She only sang Kundry on 13th and 23rd August! Basically if the cast list is correct the date is wrong. If the date is right then the cast is wrong.


----------



## Granate

Click on the picture to open and zoom

Here it shows that the Parsifal premiere of the 1957 season wasn't performed by Kna, and that the year's tandem was Cluytens/Varnay and Knappertsbusch/Mödl (no Varnay/Kna as Spanish forum members suggested, and Vinay does all the Parsifals).

If the first Parsifal of each year was always recorded by the Bavarian Radio and no pirate recording of the first broadcast appeared until the poor private Kna in Walhall (most probably August 23rd), only Orfeo has the original tapes of the Cluytens premiere. Who said the 1955 one was a mystery? Now I want to know how the prime 57 Varnay sounded in Kundry (Cluytens would conduct another Kundry by her in 1965 with Jess Thomas).


----------



## Barbebleu

Granate said:


> Click on the picture to open and zoom
> 
> Here it shows that the Parsifal premiere of the 1957 season wasn't performed by Kna, and that the year's tandem was Cluytens/Varnay and Knappertsbusch/Mödl (no Varnay/Kna as Spanish forum members suggested, and Vinay does all the Parsifals).
> 
> If the first Parsifal of each year was always recorded by the Bavarian Radio and no pirate recording of the first broadcast appeared until the poor private Kna in Walhall (most probably August 23rd), only Orfeo has the original tapes of the Cluytens premiere. Who said the 1955 one was a mystery? Now I want to know how the prime 57 Varnay sounded in Kundry (Cluytens would conduct another Kundry by her in 1965 with Jess Thomas).


Your image states that Kna was in the pit on 13 and 23 August. The Bayreuth database says he was in the pit 5 and 23 August and Cluytens was 25 July and 13 August. Mödl sang Kundry on the 13 and 23 August. I personally would postulate that Mödl is more likely to have sang with Kna for both her performances. Unless we can hear all four 1957 Parsifals or talk to someone who attended all four performances I'm at a loss to rationalise the anomalies. The mystery deepens.


----------



## Granate

Barbebleu said:


> I personally would postulate that Mödl is more likely to have sang with Kna for both her performances.


I think that a release of Varnay/Knappertsbusch/Parsifal would be heavenly, but according to BR season premieres and sound quality, it's too bad that the only posibility of a Kna/Varnay combination would not be in front of the radio professionals because of a second performance, but not all hope is lost. The Orfeo BR 1961 _Tannhäuser_ is the second performance of that year (Myto is the premiere).

I'm dying of boredom this afternoon. I have already moved to Valencia and met my roommate, only 18 yo. He drinks and smokes and tells that the residence seniors have pranked him for a month, but it has already finished. It makes me sad and it's worse to listen to the 57 Tristan und Isolde. _Yawn!_ Will I fit here?


----------



## howlingfantods

Granate said:


> I think that a release of Varnay/Knappertsbusch/Parsifal would be heavenly, but according to BR season premieres and sound quality, it's too bad that the only posibility of a Kna/Varnay combination would not be in front of the radio professionals because of a second performance, but not all hope is lost. The Orfeo BR 1961 _Tannhäuser_ is the second performance of that year (Myto is the premiere).
> 
> I'm dying of boredom this afternoon. I have already moved to Valencia and met my roommate, only 18 yo. He drinks and smokes and tells that the residence seniors have pranked him for a month, but it has already finished. It makes me sad and it's worse to listen to the 57 Tristan und Isolde. _Yawn!_ Will I fit here?


I went back and listened to a bit of the Walhall 1957 performance. Sounds like Kna to me, and moreover certainly doesn't sound like Cluytens to me. The rubati, the drama, the epic breadth, the tempi, the occasional sloppiness, all very consistent with Kna's style. Quite different from Cluytens, at least as represented by his 1960 La Scala performance--faster, more straightforward, less rubati. And the Kundry is definitely Modl not Varnay.


----------



## Barbebleu

howlingfantods said:


> I went back and listened to a bit of the Walhall 1957 performance. Sounds like Kna to me, and moreover certainly doesn't sound like Cluytens to me. The rubati, the drama, the epic breadth, the tempi, the occasional sloppiness, all very consistent with Kna's style. Quite different from Cluytens, at least as represented by his 1960 La Scala performance--faster, more straightforward, less rubati. And the Kundry is definitely Modl not Varnay.


So you would say, and I concur, that the Walhall is probably the 23rd August performance?


----------



## DarkAngel

This is the 1st actual live footage I have seen of Hotter's wotan stage performance, 1965 Walkure act 3 farewell to Brunnhilde scence french production, without doubt vocally the greatest Wotan of post 1951 new Bayreuth era, but look at the acting skills and stage presence, his majestic (dare I say godlike) movements, his loving affection/torment for his beloved daughter, and he is actually strong enough (age 56) to carry her to her resting spot before summoning the fire...........magnificent, he is the reference!

If only this was 1955 Bayreuth with sharp picture, even better 

******************************************************************

The single black eye treatment reminds me of this add campaign for Tareyton Cigs


----------



## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> This is the 1st actual live footage I have seen of Hotter's wotan stage performance, 1965 Walkure act 3 farewell to Brunnhilde scence french production, without doubt vocally the greatest Wotan of post 1951 new Bayreuth era, but look at the acting skills and stage presence, his majestic (dare I say godlike) movements, his loving affection/torment for his beloved daughter, and he is actually strong enough (age 56) to carry her to her resting spot before summoning the fire...........magnificent, he is the reference!
> 
> If only this was 1955 Bayreuth with sharp picture, even better


Good to see Hotter, but only an approximation of the real thing. Rushed tempos, cheap sets, pathetic fire (fire?), too much in closeup, out-of-sync recording...Not worthy of him or of Wagner. Still, good to see him.


----------



## gardibolt

Thanks for that, DA. I agree with your assessment; he's just superb at conveying the god, the king and the father. Really stunning performance.

1965 should be the same year that he did the Solti Walküre as well, if I am remembering correctly.


----------



## howlingfantods

Barbebleu said:


> So you would say, and I concur, that the Walhall is probably the 23rd August performance?


I suppose? From the program that Granate posted, it looks like it could also have been August 13th--the program contradicts what you say is in the Bayreuth database. I'm probably more inclined to believe the printed program than whatever's in the database--I assume the database was populated by temps filling out a computer form for minimal salaries, like most databases, so historical printed artifacts tend to be more reliable. And I would find both more reliable than anything that's printed in CD inserts, since those are often incorrect.


----------



## amfortas

howlingfantods said:


> I suppose? From the program that Granate posted, it looks like it could also have been August 13th--the program contradicts what you say is in the Bayreuth database. I'm probably more inclined to believe the printed program than whatever's in the database--I assume the database was populated by temps filling out a computer form for minimal salaries, like most databases, so historical printed artifacts tend to be more reliable. And I would find both more reliable than anything that's printed in CD inserts, since those are often incorrect.


None of which is as reliable as what you find in online discussion forums.


----------



## Granate

My father sent me pictures of the sets that arrived this Monday, in perfect new condition. We paid 15.24€ for them, shipping included. No regrets!

The pictures were taken with his phone.


----------



## Barbebleu

howlingfantods said:


> I suppose? From the program that Granate posted, it looks like it could also have been August 13th--the program contradicts what you say is in the Bayreuth database. I'm probably more inclined to believe the printed program than whatever's in the database--I assume the database was populated by temps filling out a computer form for minimal salaries, like most databases, so historical printed artifacts tend to be more reliable. And I would find both more reliable than anything that's printed in CD inserts, since those are often incorrect.


Given the predilection for accuracy that the Germans have a reputation for, I would tend to think that Bayreuth's own archives would be pretty accurate. But if that's a printed programme for the festival then who knows? Perhaps I should contact Bayreuth!


----------



## DarkAngel

Pristine XR sale Oct 10-26, I think the 49 Meister will soon be mine:



> Our *Autumn Sale* is on!
> 
> Save up to 30% on all CDs, downloads and our Digital Music Collection using the following codes:
> 
> *AUTUMN30 *(10% off orders of €30 or more)
> *AUTUMN60 *(20% off orders of €60 or more)
> *AUTUMN100 *(30% off orders of €100 or more).


----------



## rw181383

I believe this set was mentioned somewhere on TC. I have all of the Kna Parsifals, but my curiosity got the best of me:

















Including shipping, it was around $100 from HMV Japan.


----------



## DarkAngel

^^^^ Nice idea for wagner boxset, 48 CD complete Knap Parsifal Bayreuth 1951-64, HMV Japan has all kinds of boxsets Amazon USA will never carry.....perhaps has to do with copyright issues in USA

Notice years 53 & 55 missing, another conductor for Parsifal those years? 
Krauss 53, Knap listed as performing 55 Bayreuth Parsifal but no recording........


----------



## amfortas

rw181383 said:


> I believe this set was mentioned somewhere on TC. I have all of the Kna Parsifals, but my curiosity got the best of me:
> 
> View attachment 108875
> 
> 
> View attachment 108876
> 
> 
> Including shipping, it was around $100 from HMV Japan.


Every once in a while, I have this out-of-body experience and realize what people in the "real world" must think of all this.


----------



## DarkAngel

More Knap madness from HMV Japan: Knap Bayreuth Rings 56,57,58 boxset 42 Cds


----------



## howlingfantods

amfortas said:


> Every once in a while, I have this out-of-body experience and realize what people in the "real world" must think of all this.


The sad thing is when you see box sets like these and realize you've already collected all those recordings separately. From several different labels in some cases.

@DA - that 1955 Parsifal is the white whale for Parsifal collectors. As far as I know, no copy exists, unless and until someone unearths some old tapes in someone's basement. I believe there are fragments around though.


----------



## The Conte

This is madness!

N.


----------



## howlingfantods

The Conte said:


> This is madness!
> 
> N.


No, what's "madness" is calling this "The Collection" when they clearly left out Kna's recording of Act 3 from 1942. <snort> call that complete do you?


----------



## Gondowe

Supposedly those are the two acts remaining from 1955 that I listen with the 1942 third act. Bad sound but listenable.
Is it real?
Greetings.


----------



## amfortas

DarkAngel said:


> More Knap madness from HMV Japan: Knap Bayreuth Rings 56,57,58 boxset 42 Cds


Actually, *this* one makes sense to me.

Maybe I need an intervention.


----------



## Gondowe

Sorry if this is already commented but, have you listen this one?


----------



## Andrew Kenneth

DarkAngel said:


> ^^^^ Nice idea for wagner boxset, 48 CD complete Knap Parsifal Bayreuth 1951-64, HMV Japan has all kinds of boxsets Amazon USA will never carry.....perhaps has to do with copyright issues in USA
> 
> Notice years 53 & 55 missing, another conductor for Parsifal those years?
> Krauss 53, Knap listed as performing 55 Bayreuth Parsifal but no recording........


According to the excellent Wagner discography website "wagnerdisco.net" the recording of Kna's 55 Parsifal is not complete. (It lacks the last 20 minutes of the first act and the whole of act 3.)

more info :
https://wagnerdisco.net/audio/parsifal/1950-1959/1955-knappertsbusch-bayreuth/


----------



## Woodduck

Andrew Kenneth said:


> According to the excellent Wagner discography website "wagnerdisco.net" the recording of Kna's 55 Parsifal is not complete. (It lacks the last 20 minutes of the first act and the whole of act 3.)
> 
> more info :
> https://wagnerdisco.net/audio/parsifal/1950-1959/1955-knappertsbusch-bayreuth/


Fascinating to see that paragon of Klingsors, Hermann Uhde, taking the brief role of Titurel. I'd love to know the story behind that.


----------



## Granate

I've been leaving this site quite abandoned. It's been a week since I finished my Russian Opera challenges and I haven't written my four articles about Tchaikovsky yet. I was reviewing several Wagner recording of the _Meistersingers_, and now I'm finishing the revision of five _Parsifals_ I had heard before.










*Wagner*
DIE MEISTERSINGER VON NÜRNBERG WWV 96 Live recording
Theo Adam
Karl Ridderbusch
Thomas Hemsley
Waldemar Kmentt
Gwyneth Jones
Hermin Esser
Janis Martin
Kurt Moll

*Chor und Orchester der Bayreuther Festspiele 
Karl Böhm
Orfeo (1968/2008 Remastered Edition)*

I couldn't write a lot about this performance in Stereo but I think it should have been recorded by Philips for their Bayreuth Canon. I had been listening to it with great admiration but buthout being able to write anything because of business. Fast but with amazing sound quality. Kmnett's Walther and G. Jones' Eva sound like gods instead of youngsters. Adam's Sachs is incredibly heroic. Kmnett is more erratic in tone so you should decide between his emotion or his numerous vocal mistakes. He makes a great interpretation in the most part but some key moments sounded quite ridiculous.










*Wagner*
PARSIFAL WWV 111 Live recording August 5th
James King
Franz Crass
Thomas Stewart
Karl Ridderbusch
Christa Ludwig
Gerd Nienstedt

Hermin Esser
Kurt Moll

Anja Silja
Lily Sauter
Helga Dernesch
Dorothea Siebert

Martha Mödl

*Chor und Orchester der Bayreuther Festspiele 
Pierre Boulez* (he doesn't bite, Duck)
*Opera Depot (1967/2017 Issue Edition)*

Could be this performance (the 3rd of the season) or the first, I would love to hear this Parsifal from the Original tapes. It's a vocally intense performance, and I would say it because of Christa Ludwig's incredibly loud Kundry, in-character from Act I and brutal in Act II. Stewart is a hectic Amfortas, without most of the remorse feeling London could give in his prime and even his 1962 recording. Franz Crass' Gurnemanz is really ok but can't keep up with his colleages to sing louder (XD), performing Act III better. James King is really correct for a mono tape, and I bet I would love him as much as his Kempe Lohengrin of the same year in stereo. His voice for the Amfortas solo part sounds so wise... as heroic as Windgassen. You shouldn't worry Wooduck. The pace is really acceptable for me and there is some brief speeding by Boulez in Act I. It clocks in 3h38m. If it was in Stereo, I would enjoy his layers much more.

[HR][/HR]
And today, because of Liane Synek's sale in Opera Depot, I got curious for the *Bayreuth 1970 Ring* with Thomas Stewart, Jean Cox and Berit Lindholm under Horst Stein.I listened to the excerpts and I was quite impressed. I always wanted to hear the three Wotans by Thomas Stewart, and Berit Lindholm made me relisten to excerpts of a Brünnhilde I really like and other don't: Jeaninne Altmeyer. I would thank to revisit the Dresden Janowski ring again, but this was quite revealing. I made a courageous move and preferred to spend 5€ more for the *FLAC version* instead of MP3. I hope the ring is so good that if Orfeo releases an insanely priced Stereo broadcast of the Ring, I can pass from it and spend 40€ in the individual remastered copies of the Janowski Ring. Indeed, I already know many great Stereo rings.

*Price: 28€*


----------



## Dimace

As a new member, I don't know if you have already posted this recording.









*this one is also quite collectible with illustrious libretto, super paper quality etc. The sound quality is NOT good. (I could say unacceptable...) You are buying history here...


----------



## Dimace

Granate said:


> I've been leaving this site quite abandoned. It's been a week since I finished my Russian Opera challenges and I haven't written my four articles about Tchaikovsky yet. I was reviewing several Wagner recording of the _Meistersingers_, and now I'm finishing the revision of five _Parsifals_ I had heard before.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Wagner*
> DIE MEISTERSINGER VON NÜRNBERG WWV 96 Live recording
> Theo Adam
> Karl Ridderbusch
> Thomas Hemsley
> Waldemar Kmentt
> Gwyneth Jones
> Hermin Esser
> Janis Martin
> Kurt Moll
> 
> *Chor und Orchester der Bayreuther Festspiele
> Karl Böhm
> Orfeo (1968/2008 Remastered Edition)*
> 
> I couldn't write a lot about this performance in Stereo but I think it should have been recorded by Philips for their Bayreuth Canon. I had been listening to it with great admiration but buthout being able to write anything because of business. Fast but with amazing sound quality. Kmnett's Walther and G. Jones' Eva sound like gods instead of youngsters. Adam's Sachs is incredibly heroic. Kmnett is more erratic in tone so you should decide between his emotion or his numerous vocal mistakes. He makes a great interpretation in the most part but some key moments sounded quite ridiculous.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Wagner*
> PARSIFAL WWV 111 Live recording August 5th
> James King
> Franz Crass
> Thomas Stewart
> Karl Ridderbusch
> Christa Ludwig
> Gerd Nienstedt
> 
> Hermin Esser
> Kurt Moll
> 
> Anja Silja
> Lily Sauter
> Helga Dernesch
> Dorothea Siebert
> 
> Martha Mödl
> 
> *Chor und Orchester der Bayreuther Festspiele
> Pierre Boulez* (he doesn't bite, Duck)
> *Opera Depot (1967/2017 Issue Edition)*
> 
> Could be this performance (the 3rd of the season) or the first, I would love to hear this Parsifal from the Original tapes. It's a vocally intense performance, and I would say it because of Christa Ludwig's incredibly loud Kundry, in-character from Act I and brutal in Act II. Stewart is a hectic Amfortas, without most of the remorse feeling London could give in his prime and even his 1962 recording. Franz Crass' Gurnemanz is really ok but can't keep up with his colleages to sing louder (XD), performing Act III better. James King is really correct for a mono tape, and I bet I would love him as much as his Kempe Lohengrin of the same year in stereo. His voice for the Amfortas solo part sounds so wise... as heroic as Windgassen. You shouldn't worry Wooduck. The pace is really acceptable for me and there is some brief speeding by Boulez in Act I. It clocks in 3h38m. If it was in Stereo, I would enjoy his layers much more.
> 
> [HR][/HR]
> And today, because of Liane Synek's sale in Opera Depot, I got curious for the *Bayreuth 1970 Ring* with Thomas Stewart, Jean Cox and Berit Lindholm under Horst Stein.I listened to the excerpts and I was quite impressed. I always wanted to hear the three Wotans by Thomas Stewart, and Berit Lindholm made me relisten to excerpts of a Brünnhilde I really like and other don't: Jeaninne Altmeyer. I would thank to revisit the Dresden Janowski ring again, but this was quite revealing. I made a courageous move and preferred to spend 5€ more for the *FLAC version* instead of MP3. I hope the ring is so good that if Orfeo releases an insanely priced Stereo broadcast of the Ring, *I can pass from it and spend 40€ in the individual remastered copies of the Janowski Ring.* Indeed, I already know many great Stereo rings.
> 
> *Price: 28€*


Please, do it! Marek is someone who knows Wagner very well. In Berlin (the SACD Edition) or in Dresden (the Ring you want) brings the same outcome: Unique Wagnerian experience!


----------



## Dimace

This one is my newest Ring and it is SUPER! Seattle Opera has made a miracle here and gave us the best Ring made outside Germany. *Rate: 5/5*









* if this one or something else is already posted by another user, my apologies.


----------



## gardibolt

Amazon reviews of that one are wildly split; some love it and there are a few that say "downright terrible." For example:

"The singing ranges from bad (Mellor - Brunnhilde) to ok (Vinke - Siegfried, Grimsley -Wotan/Wanderer). Blythe (Fricka) is probably the best thing about this set vocally. Mellor is ok in Walkure, but quite bad in Siegfried and Gotterdammerung. The last note she sings in Siegfried is without a doubt the ugliest thing I have ever heard on any opera recording, and the Immolation Scene is just not good. Singing wise, there is really nothing great here to talk about, nothing special. The same can be said for the conducting and orchestra. The balance of the orchestra is weird at places- at some points it sounds like a Tuba Concerto. Overall the orchestra and conducting is disappointment - nice is some places, weird/annoying in others. Sometimes the orchestra is hard to hear as well. The only great thing about this set is the packaging, which is really nice. With so many good to great Ring recordings out there, your best bet would be to let this one pass you by!

"EDIT: 3/7/2015: I've revisited this Ring a few times since my initial review, and have come to the conclusion that I was too kind in my initial assessment. I have over 20 recordings of The Ring, and this is by far the worst of the lot."

I have the Opera Depot rendering of the Seattle 1970s Ring, and thought it was pretty good. I suppose I may have to see what this one has to offer at some point.


----------



## The Conte

Everybody knows that the best Ring made outside Germany is either one of the Furties or Barenboim at La Scala on DVD/Blu-ray.

N.


----------



## Barbebleu

Following my wife's rather fine birthday presents (full study scores of Rheingold and Götterdämmerung) to me last month I have been listening to a few things. Swarovsky Rheingold, Bayreuth 1955 Götterdämerung (2nd cycle) and, as I already had the study score for Parsifal, I added the Bayreuth '51 and '52 Knappertsbuschs. 

The Swarovsky makes it in because it just qualifies under my arbitrary 50 year rule for historical recordings!!:lol:

I shall post my thoughts on all of these in due course starting with Rheingold. Suffice to say that following with the full score is extremely illuminating.


----------



## gardibolt

My email includes Pristine's announcement that their new 1962 Leinsdorf Siegfried from the Metropolitan (uncut, Hans Hopf in the title role and Nilsson as Brünnhilde) is available, and that Götterdämmerung should follow at the end of the month. Always nice to have another historic Ring cycle.


----------



## wkasimer

gardibolt said:


> My email includes Pristine's announcement that their new 1962 Leinsdorf Siegfried from the Metropolitan (uncut, Hans Hopf in the title role and Nilsson as Brünnhilde) is available, and that Götterdämmerung should follow at the end of the month. Always nice to have another historic Ring cycle.


Pristine may be able to improve sonically over the previous issue on Walhall, but they won't be able to fix the problems with the performance.


----------



## Itullian

Amazing performance.
Good sound.


----------



## Itullian

^^^I believe this is Knappys only recorded Tristan.


----------



## Morton

Good sound and Leonie Rysanek is wonderful.


----------



## Barbebleu

Morton said:


> View attachment 109679
> 
> Good sound and Leonie Rysanek is wonderful.


Great cast. Fifties Bayreuth is hard to beat.


----------



## wkasimer

Morton said:


> View attachment 109679
> 
> Good sound and Leonie Rysanek is wonderful.


This has been around on other labels, probably in inferior sound. Great performance, vastly superior to the commercial studio recording with Rysanek and London, Dorati conducting.

Great avatar, BTW. I used to have that on one of my walls, until my wife insisted on replacing it with a quilt....


----------



## Music Snob

Greetings Friends- I have been lurking on this amazing thread for a few weeks now. I was hoping that you may be able to help with a couple questions that I haven’t been able to find answers for on the “world wide web”...

As for the Keilberth 55 ring, was the complete 2nd edition released? I found Die Walkure and Gotterdamerung but I’m not sure if Siegfried and Rhinegold have been issued.

My second question is which Keilberth 53 issue has the best sound? I read that the mono is a little weird with the balance of voices to the left channel. Is any release preferred?

Thanks for your help- I own 55 Keilberth, 56 Kna, Solti, Furtwangler 1950 (Pristine), and the Potted Ring (Pristine). I’m waiting for the next 30% off sale at Pristine to get the 53 Krauss.

Thank you


----------



## Itullian

Hello, and welcome to our Historical Wagner thread.

No, the other 2 volumes of the '55 Keilberth were not released.
Some kind of technical problems or just not very good sound on those recordings.

I haven't heard them all, but I believe the consensus is that the issue in the blue box, Pan Classics, is the best sound.
The mono sound is good and I don't remember any problems with it.


----------



## Music Snob

Thank you Itullian! I appreciate the help. 

If I had to make a recommendation to others here it would be the Naxos historical Parsifal 2 cd set of Alfred Hertz, Karl Muck, and Siegfried Wagner conducting. Pristine Classical has a cleaned up version of Parsifal with Karl Muck and Siegfried Wagner conducting. 
Truly amazing.


----------



## DarkAngel

> As for the Keilberth 55 ring, was the complete 2nd edition released? I found Die Walkure and Gotterdamerung but I'm not sure if Siegfried and Rhinegold have been issued.


























All three items in early live stereo sound from Decca's top recording team. First Ring of 55 Bayreuth season with Varnay as Brunhilde was used for boxset, and other two individual performances are from 2nd 55 Ring with Modl as Brunhilde.......

To prepare for live stereo recording of 55 Ring Decca team "practiced" by recording 1st 55 Dutchman in stereo also, so we have that as a nice bonus......55 Knap on Orfeo label was 2nd Dutchie (mono sound)


----------



## Granate

Music Snob said:


> My second question is which Keilberth 53 issue has the best sound? I read that the mono is a little weird with the balance of voices to the left channel. Is any release preferred?












*Wagner*
DER RING DES NIBELUNGEN WWV 86 Live recording

*Chor und Orchester der Bayreuther Festspiele 
Joseph Keilberth
Pan Classics (1953/2014 Remastered Edition)*

I don't remember hearing that lack of balance in my CD copies from Membran, but the Andromeda/Pan Classics remaster is the most advanced release in terms of SQ. Voices are extremely clear. You get instead the Krauss Siegfried Act I, but Windgassen's forging song would be awful in both runs I'm afraid.

I'd like to discuss so much more things that I've been listening to, especially the new Ring reviews I'm writing down.


----------



## Barbebleu

Granate said:


> *Wagner*
> DER RING DES NIBELUNGEN WWV 86 Live recording
> 
> *Chor und Orchester der Bayreuther Festspiele
> Joseph Keilberth
> Pan Classics (1953/2014 Remastered Edition)*
> 
> I don't remember hearing that lack of balance in my CD copies from Membran, but the Andromeda/Pan Classics remaster is the most advanced release in terms of SQ. Voices are extremely clear. You get instead the Krauss Siegfried Act I, but Windgassen's forging song would be awful in both runs I'm afraid.
> 
> I'd like to discuss so much more things that I've been listening to, especially the new Ring reviews I'm writing down.


I'm always pleased to see your posts and comments Granate. I've been a bit busy lately with work being done in my house and an imminent hospital procedure so I haven't had a chance to put my thoughts together about the stuff I've been listening to along with following them with my study scores. But soon people, soon!!


----------



## DarkAngel

Granate said:


> *Wagner*
> DER RING DES NIBELUNGEN WWV 86 Live recording
> 
> *Chor und Orchester der Bayreuther Festspiele
> Joseph Keilberth
> Pan Classics (1953/2014 Remastered Edition)*
> 
> I don't remember hearing that lack of balance in my CD copies from Membran, but the Andromeda/Pan Classics remaster is the most advanced release in terms of SQ. Voices are extremely clear. You get instead the Krauss Siegfried Act I, but Windgassen's forging song would be awful in both runs I'm afraid.
> 
> I'd like to discuss so much more things that I've been listening to, especially the new Ring reviews I'm writing down.


Agree with others that blue Pan Classics boxset is the best sound version currently at reduced price, can't escape the replaced Seigfried Act 1 from 53 Krauss Ring which seems to be on every labels version.......Pan Classics is connected to Andromeda label somehow

Don't recall any obvious channel imbalance in mono sound..........


----------



## Music Snob

I bought Keilberth 53 today, as well as Kna 58 Die Walküre. I liked what I heard on YouTube and have a need to own this music... I feel like I’m doing a good service to support this music. It’s not even that I’m listening to awesome versions but to history itself in this golden age.


As for the rest of Kna 57/58 I’m going to wait and get the music in piecemeal... EBay has been kind to me!!


----------



## Granate

Music Snob said:


> As for the rest of Kna 57/58 I'm going to wait and get the music in piecemeal... EBay has been kind to me!!


Do you know if they sell the 57 Gotterdammerung? It's been OOP from Amazons for months!


----------



## Music Snob

I haven’t seen it, but EBay always surprises. I just started looking though. I may be wrong but I’m afraid this stuff is not always going to be around. I’m of the mindset to get it while the gettin’ is good.

It seems the 1951 Testament Kna is available for cheap- if you don’t mind buying used.


----------



## wkasimer

Music Snob said:


> I haven't seen it, but EBay always surprises. I just started looking though. I may be wrong but I'm afraid this stuff is not always going to be around. I'm of the mindset to get it while the gettin' is good.
> 
> It seems the 1951 Testament Kna is available for cheap- if you don't mind buying used.


You might want to have a look at Berkshire Record Outlet - they have a lot of Walhall and Testament Wagner sets (that's where I got most of the Knappertsbusch 1958 RING):

https://broinc.com/index.php

Also, a lot of the Walhall sets have multiple listings at widely varying prices.


----------



## Granate

*Latest Wagner purchases*


























I had been looking for some recordings plus Knappertsbusch Bruckner in Amazon, but the card wasn't fixed. Tonight, I checked out that there was a 15% discount in 2/3 items from a Kentuky store (seller says DirectToU, LLC, FL) with free shipping to Spain that was selling on Ebay (thanks to Music Snob).

I could have gotten the Cluytens _Meistersinger_ from 1958 to own a complete Bayreuth Wagner collection on CD, but I thought the Kna _Walküre_ from 1958 was going to run out first. Besides, I'm more likely to listen to that _Walküre_ than the _Meistersinger._

31€ altogether, all new CDs with free shipping. They're arriving by Christmas.

Yes. That's only 10.50€ per set. While Amazon asks for 11-12.70€ each.

And I promise that I'll soon talk about the Stein 1970 _Ring_ and the two 2010s _Parsifals_ on BluRay. Just give me time. We are in the middle of our Masters degree.


----------



## Music Snob

I’m happy that worked out for you! I found 1958 Kna Walküre on EBay today for about $12.99 new and snagged it. I will buy the other 3 from that year on Amazon... then it’s on to the 57 Kna.

No other composer has grown on me the way Wagner has... save for Mozart. With his music is was instaneous- not so with Wagner. However it has truly grown on me and I prefer the historical recordings more often than not.


----------



## Itullian

^^^^And the 57 and 58 Knappy have great sound too!


----------



## Music Snob

56 Kna is awesome- I like Kna’s conducting- it seems mad(!) for lack of a better word. Maybe in the engineering and imperfection the character of the music is enhanced. I kept being drawn to his Wotan’s Farewell on YouTube. 

I am tempted to buy The Cosima Era- The Early Bayreuth Festival Singers. Has anyone heard this?


----------



## Granate

Music Snob said:


> I'm happy that worked out for you! I found 1958 Kna Walküre on EBay today for about $12.99 new and snagged it. I will buy the other 3 from that year on Amazon... then it's on to the 57 Kna.


I made my Wagner Mono challenge many months ago and the Kna rings weren't always awesome. I was annoyed by the slowness of the 57 Walkure but the Vickers 58 one was my favourite. The rest, went for the 57 Ring, including the Aldenhoff Siegfried that doesn't mess up the forging song. But I guess that Walhall is taking out of the market the complete 57 Ring. Maybe they'll release it in a complete box or with new CDs in the future. That's why I'm getting the 58 Walkure and no 57 opera for the time being.

I think 57 has the best cast of the three runs. But you will be very satisfied with the Keilberth Ring in Pan Classics.


----------



## Gondowe

At last I have heard th e Keilberth rings from 1952 and 1953, and Kempe 1960. In the case of 1953 I made a 'fix' and substitute the act 1 from Siegfried for that one in Youtube that claims to be the real one. It have cuts (more or less 15 min) and naturally a worse sound but Windgassen is more accurate in the forging song, (but never perfect). I cannot say that is the best sung but it stands in the level. As for the Kempe I obtained Operadepot and is with the real walkure with Nilsson and a wonderful Windgassen this time. Globally, wonderfully singed and directed. A very awesome finding for me. 
Now my Rings are:
Met 30s
Moralt
Bayreuth 51 ( the karajan/kna)
Bayreuth 52, 53, 53, DW54, 55, DW and G 55 2nd, 56, 57, 58, 60, 67, 2007
Furt 50, 53
Solti
Levine DVD
and DW met 35/37, furt 54, Leinsdorf 40, 62
G kna 55, 
and several acts by walter kna furt reiner...
and extracts from viena kna, krauss, and several recordings from 1920s schorr, melchior, leider...

Greetings


----------



## howlingfantods

Gondowe said:


> At last I have heard th e Keilberth rings from 1952 and 1953, and Kempe 1960. In the case of 1953 I made a 'fix' and substitute the act 1 from Siegfried for that one in Youtube that claims to be the real one. It have cuts (more or less 15 min) and naturally a worse sound but Windgassen is more accurate in the forging song, (but never perfect). I cannot say that is the best sung but it stands in the level. As for the Kempe I obtained Operadepot and is with the real walkure with Nilsson and a wonderful Windgassen this time. Globally, wonderfully singed and directed. A very awesome finding for me.
> Now my Rings are:
> Met 30s
> Moralt
> Bayreuth 51 ( the karajan/kna)
> Bayreuth 52, 53, 53, DW54, 55, DW and G 55 2nd, 56, 57, 58, 60, 67, 2007
> Furt 50, 53
> Solti
> Levine DVD
> and DW met 35/37, furt 54, Leinsdorf 40, 62
> G kna 55,
> and several acts by walter kna furt reiner...
> and extracts from viena kna, krauss, and several recordings from 1920s schorr, melchior, leider...
> 
> Greetings


I mean... get the Bohm. It's economically priced and is one of the finest stereo Rings. I know I seem to be the only fan of the cycle around these parts, but "these parts" is a survey of like 20 people, and several of the people that dislike the cycle around here seem to prefer the Keilberth just so they don't have to listen to Nilsson. From my perspective, it's lunacy to get multiple Keilberth Rings before you get the Bohm--Keilberth is a repetiteur compared to Bohm.


----------



## Gondowe

I have the bohm. As you can see, bayreuth 67


----------



## DarkAngel

Gondowe said:


> I have the bohm. As you can see, bayreuth 67


RW would be proud, great collection of Rings.......

I would wait for next operadepot 50% sale and mine the 1970s Bayreuth era, 70 or 73 Stein Rings and 76 or 77 Boulez Rings, many new singers to be heard.......I realize you could quit now and spend a lifetime exploring current collection, but sale prices at operadepot make it too easy


----------



## Granate

Gondowe said:


> I have the bohm. As you can see, bayreuth 67












¿Is it the latest remaster? Got it for 25€. It ended up being my CD choice in Stereo, on par with Bayreuth 1976.

Your Opera Depot ring purchase for the Kempe 1960 Ring is also a very good choice. I really liked the _Siegfried_ and _Götterdämmerung,_ but from the Myto copies on Spotify and Youtube. I would try the Kempe 62 _Rheingold_ and then the 61 _Walküre_.



DarkAngel said:


> I would wait for next operadepot 50% sale and mine the 1970s Bayreuth era, 70 or 73 Stein Rings and 76 or 77 Boulez Rings


I'm just saying that I really regret purchasing the 1970 Ring in FLAC with Lindholm, Stewart and Cox. Only Berit and Gwyneth are worth the try.


----------



## 89Koechel

OK, am trying to catch-UP, here, but has anyone mentioned Furtwangler? … Also, any mention of Karl Muck (w/Pistor, Bronsgeest and the great contributions of Ludwig Hoffman) in Parsifal excerpts?


----------



## DarkAngel

DarkAngel said:


> RW would be proud, great collection of Rings.......
> 
> I would wait for next operadepot 50% sale and mine the 1970s Bayreuth era, 70,71 or 73 Stein Rings and 76 or 77 Boulez Rings, many new singers to be heard.......I realize you could quit now and spend a lifetime exploring current collection, but sale prices at operadepot make it too easy


BTW 60% sale now at operadepot for Gwyneth Jones.....so 70,71,73,76,77 Bayreuth Rings are available

https://operadepot.com/collections/gwyneth-jones?page=1


----------



## howlingfantods

Gondowe said:


> I have the bohm. As you can see, bayreuth 67


Ah I see. I don't think most refer to it as such since it's a pastiche but I get you.


----------



## Music Snob

My 58 Kna Gotterdamerung arrived today. I listened to the first CD and it is awesome. I’ve really been enjoying his conducting, listening to his 56 and now this with greater interest than the Keilberth 55. His others from 58 should arrive soon. Also expected is the Cosima Era box set. I’m very excited about that.


----------



## Barbebleu

Have we all remembered that the Philips '67 Ring by Böhm is actually an amalgam of the '66 and '67 seasons. Otto Suitner shared the conducting in '67. Suitner did Rheingold and Siegfried and Böhm did the other two. Operadepot has the '67 Ring with both conductors.


----------



## Itullian

89Koechel said:


> OK, am trying to catch-UP, here, but has anyone mentioned Furtwangler? … Also, any mention of Karl Muck (w/Pistor, Bronsgeest and the great contributions of Ludwig Hoffman) in Parsifal excerpts?


I'm sure the Wagner lovers here have both Furtwangler cycles.
They are must haves


----------



## Granate

I'm not going to enter this turmoil of record owning, because the only advantage I hear in the Furtwängler RAI ring over the Keilberth Bayreuth, both in 1953, is the conducting, but that can be also challenged by the Knappertsbusch rings with even more amazing singers. Also, I don't like Flagstad's Brünnhilde in La Scala.

Instead, I've been growing my Wagner Bayreuth collection in mono with 5 titles in three months, remaining only the Cluytens 58 _Meistersinger,_ the Knappertsbusch 57 Ring, the Krauss 53 _Rheingold_ and the Kna 54 _Parsifal_ (No Opera Depot thank you DA). I have my preferences very clear, then there's the recordings outside Bayreuth like the Cluytens Vienna or the Furtwängler London _Tristan und Isoldes_. There's a lot to rate before buying.


----------



## DarkAngel

Granate said:


> I'm not going to enter this turmoil of record owning, because the only advantage I hear in the Furtwängler RAI ring over the Keilberth Bayreuth, both in 1953, is the conducting, but that can be also challenged by the Knappertsbusch rings with even more amazing singers. Also, I don't like Flagstad's Brünnhilde in La Scala.
> 
> Instead, I've been growing my Wagner Bayreuth collection in mono with 5 titles in three months, remaining only the Cluytens 58 _Meistersinger,_ the Knappertsbusch 57 Ring, the Krauss 53 _Rheingold_ and the Kna 54 _Parsifal_ *(No Opera Depot thank you DA)*. I have my preferences very clear, then there's the recordings outside Bayreuth like the Cluytens Vienna or the Furtwängler London _Tristan und Isoldes_. There's a lot to rate before buying.


I agree that Myto and Walhall have great budget priced 50s and and early 60s Bayreuth catalogs and at full price Orfeo is even better, I only use operadepot for late 1960s and 1970s Bayreuth where there are not other choices easily available and the live sound is usually very good overall.....50-60% sale discounts are also welcome


----------



## Music Snob

My 58 Kna Gotterdammerung arrived Saturday... on a quick side to side comparison with the 56 Orfeo I would say the 56 is better sound quality. 

Also, my Pristine Classical CD's came in of Furtwangler 50, HMV Potted Ring, 1940 Walkure, and Muck's Parsifal. The Furtwangler is spread over 7 cd cases, Die Walkure 1940 is 2 cases, HMV Potted is 4 cases, and Parsifal is one case. The Cd's have what looks like a printed image on them but it may just be a sticker. I listen to the downloads that came with these, the CD's will be living on my shelf... I guess I just like to have them.

I plan on doing a side by side with the Furtwangler 50 box with the lightning on the cover. I did a quick comparison of Heil dir Sonne and even though the sound is way cleaner on Pristine it seemed Flagstads vocals mightve been lower in the mix on Pristine. I will compare more when i have time.


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## DarkAngel

^^^^ That is a monster lode of great RW to explore, the potted RING from HMV studio recordings is the holy bible of historic Wagner......I went from 50 Furtwangler Ring Music & Arts to Pristine XR set, major sound upgrade










Best standard price CD set I have heard is latest Archipel.........


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## 89Koechel

Thanks, and there are, STILL, two Societies, devoted to the legacy of WF - one in Japan, and one in Europe. I don't think he ever had the very-greatest singers, to work with … but his exceptional GRIP on the different scores is one, that will never be surpassed.


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## 89Koechel

Thanks, Granate, but I don't think there've very much "turmoil" going on here … although I understand your point. I've learned to have a sufficient RESPECT for the short legacy of Joseph Keilberth, although have never listened-to any part of his Ring. It's certainly true that Kna, Keilberth, Cluytens, Clemens Krauss … or maybe even Swarowsky (yes, his Ring is available from Amazon, for about $14) have excellent things to "say", so to speak, in various parts of the Ring.


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## 89Koechel

DarkAngel - Andrew Rose has done an EXCEPTIONAL job, so to speak, with his preferences in classical reissues, don't you think? … and the "potted Ring" is probably one of the best. I won't buy it, since I already have most of the BEST of it, on LPs, dubs (open-reel), and etc. … but anywhere that Andrew R TURNS, in revivifying great recordings, he has results that are very-remarkable, IMO.


----------



## Music Snob

DarkAngel said:


> ^^^^ That is a monster lode of great RW to explore, the potted RING from HMV studio recordings is the holy bible of historic Wagner......I went from 50 Furtwangler Ring Music & Arts to Pristine XR set, major sound upgrade


I have obviously splurged quite a bit lately- My situation is such that I create the illusion that if I don't get these now I might not be able to in the future. I didn't appreciate Wagner's music right away, but it hit me hard this year. Last year or two I fell in love with Parsifal, but this year it has been the Ring.

My wife understands and is supportive of acquiring this music because of it's artistic value and influence for our children, but without a doubt she is sick of listening to Wagner!

The Cosima Era arrived yesterday and it is real charmimg- to hear Wagner's songs sung with just a voice and piano seems to give me a glimpse of how he composed and played those songs for guests.

I don't mind the sound of old recordings with Wagner's music- it sounds _Regal_.


----------



## DarkAngel

89Koechel said:


> DarkAngel - Andrew Rose has done an EXCEPTIONAL job, so to speak, with his preferences in classical reissues, don't you think? … and the "potted Ring" is probably one of the best. I won't buy it, since I already have most of the BEST of it, on LPs, dubs (open-reel), and etc. … but anywhere that Andrew R TURNS, in revivifying great recordings, he has results that are very-remarkable, IMO.


Rose often works near miracles in sound restoration, he has been working with Mark Obert-Thorn (Naxos fame) on many releases including the wonderful Wagner HMV potted Ring, also love his Callas opera work and MET opera radio broadcasts remasters

My Pristine XR conversion happened many years ago with 53 Krauss Ring, at first I had the opera d oro boxset like everyone else and put up with boxy opaque sound, then upgraded to Orfeo boxset with sound cleaned up and a bit more detail uncovered, but then tried the Pristine XR version and it was a very large improvement over Orfeo unlocking whole levels of detail I have never heard before along with expanded dynamic range of sound creating a whole new experience of this performance, although cost is not cheap when only the best sound is desired I go to Pristine XR......


----------



## DarkAngel

Music Snob said:


> I have obviously splurged quite a bit lately- My situation is such that* I create the illusion that if I don't get these now I might not be able to in the future*. I didn't appreciate Wagner's music right away, but it hit me hard this year. Last year or two I fell in love with Parsifal, but this year it has been the Ring.


May have to use the tried and true method of having music orders delivered to work and then slowly smuggle them back home without wife noticing (too much) :angel:


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## Granate

*Wagner*
PARSIFAL WWV 111 Live 1960 recording

*Only Act I and Act II Scene 1.*

Ebay offered the Opera from Myto for 17.72€ free shipping in New Condition, plus a 5€ reduction of any product I wanted. It could have been worth it because it was my third favourite _Parsifal_ in Mono, but it would be my third _Parsifal_ purchase on cd since I already have Kna 51 and 52. So, I kept spinning the idea around my head and this morning I made a new listen leaving on the side my _Götterdämmerungs._

I won't be changing my first review of the performance, but I liked a lot less the roles of Gurnemanz and Parsifal in Act I (Greindl, Beirer). The sound was excellent and the chorus amazing. The Grail scene was epic. But I'm not spending 13€ on this.

You may want one instead. I reccommend it over many Kna performances. Search "0801439902794" on eBay.


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## Music Snob

My 53 Keilberth hath arrived- Greatness is contained therein. History comes alive. Is it better than 55? No, but it is also not worse- just different in it's mono glory. I like the pacing of Wotan's farewell better on this set. It is better to compare with Knappertsbusch's incredible sets, imo.

The Cosima Era has also arrived. If you can handle and even appreciate recordings from the first decades of the 20th century then do not hesitate to acquire this historical document- the book that accompanies the set is enlightening. We can hear some of the very singers that were in The original Ring and Parsifal.

Also this week I bought (based on a video that came up on my YouTube feed of Flagstad's first recording) Flagstad- The Early Recordings. It is heaven in a 3 CD set. She reigns supreme to my ears.


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## wkasimer

Music Snob said:


> The Cosima Era has also arrived. If you can handle and even appreciate recordings from the first decades of the 20th century then do not hesitate to acquire this historical document- the book that accompanies the set is enlightening. We can hear some of the very singers that were in The original Ring and Parsifal.
> 
> View attachment 110015


I'm pretty sure that this is the same set that was issued by Gebhardt about fifteen or so years ago. I confess that it's been on my shelf since then, barely sampled. Time to give it a listen, I think....



> Also this week I bought (based on a video that came up on my YouTube feed of Flagstad's first recording) Flagstad- The Early Recordings. It is heaven in a 3 CD set. She reigns supreme to my ears.



View attachment 110014


This is a fantastic set. There were four other sets, but I think that this first one is the most essential. Excellent transfers and documentation. I'm surprised that it's still in print and available fairly cheaply.


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## Music Snob

wkasimer said:


> This is a fantastic set. There were four other sets, but I think that this first one is the most essential. Excellent transfers and documentation. I'm surprised that it's still in print and available fairly cheaply.


I'm amazed how much of this historical music is cheaply priced- as I'm sure we all are aware. I had only planned on buying Volume 1 just to hear her first recordings. When I tried to convey how incredible a talent either her or Melchior were to my friends I've compared them to Babe Ruth in baseball- my friends understand sports. It's like they were even more talented than the great athletes... they kept going and going and going and going......

To complete my quest for 50's Bayreuth recordings of the Ring I have to get the Krauss (waiting till the spring for Pristine's 30% off) and I need Kna 57 Rheingold, Siegfried, and Gotterdammerung. I might pull the trigger on Rheingold today as it is reasonably priced but for Siegfried it is north of 30$ and Gotterdamerung north of 70$! At this point it is for completions sake but I can't justify that price for Gotterdammerung.


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## Granate

DarkAngel said:


> Rose often works near miracles in sound restoration, he has been working with Mark Obert-Thorn (Naxos fame) on many releases including the wonderful Wagner HMV potted Ring, also love his Callas opera work and MET opera radio broadcasts remasters
> 
> My Pristine XR conversion happened many years ago with 53 Krauss Ring, at first I had the opera d oro boxset like everyone else and put up with boxy opaque sound, then upgraded to Orfeo boxset with sound cleaned up and a bit more detail uncovered, but then tried the Pristine XR version and it was a very large improvement over Orfeo unlocking whole levels of detail I have never heard before along with expanded dynamic range of sound creating a whole new experience of this performance, although cost is not cheap when only the best sound is desired I go to Pristine XR


I think I will be saving the money of my eBay discount and wait for later. I've bought almost all the Wagner I want, and the Cluytens _Meistersinger,_ even if it's only for 10€ new on cd, may better stay in a streaming playlist.










But I'm quite interested in buying the *Pristine version* of the *Krauss 53 Rheingold.* With the mentioned 30% discount on Spring, I would "only" pay 12.60€ for a download. *But I don't know if I should get the Mono or the Ambient stereo versions.* It would be much better for me than buying the whole 53 Ring in OdO. Then, if the chances are good and Walhall sells new spare copies of the 57 _Siegfried_ and _Götterdämmerung,_ that would be the end of my Bayreuth collection.

And then come the Furtwängler and Cluytens TUI, the Schüchter _Lohengrin,_, the Kna 54 _Parsifal_ and the _Keilberth Ring_ in Pan Classics. Sorry if this time I'm quite annoying with Wagner purchases. I've spent 45€ in Wagner Mono recordings these 3 months plus 20€ for a Mahler 9 concert in Valencia with Adam Fischer. Also, with my lack of ideas and masters degree, I' m slowly listening to Wagner Rings in stereo and mono. I'm already annoyed.


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## DarkAngel

^^^^ I always get the Pristine XR ambient stereo version if available, very subtle effect that does not sound processed or un-natural


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## DarkAngel

Music Snob said:


> Also this week I bought (based on a video that came up on my YouTube feed of Flagstad's first recording) Flagstad- The Early Recordings. It is heaven in a 3 CD set. She reigns supreme to my ears.
> 
> View attachment 110014


Be sure and get this cheap 49 radio broadcast with Svanholm, some really great wagner singing very good sound.........best liebestod I have heard by Flagstad


----------



## Gondowe

Oh my God. Relistening now 55 2nd Walkure with Varnay as Sieglinde. How far better is than the 1st in my opinion. How I wonder the possibility of a same cast with Kna.


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## DarkAngel

Gondowe said:


> Oh my God. Relistening now 55 2nd Walkure with *Varnay as Sieglinde*. How far better is than the 1st in my opinion. How I wonder the possibility of a same cast with Kna.


41 MET Walkure radio broadcast, 23 year old student singer makes her MET debut replacing Lotte Lehmann as Sieglinde with golden age iconic cast.......Miss Astrid Varnay


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## Gondowe

DarkAngel said:


> 41 MET Walkure radio broadcast, 23 year old student singer makes her MET debut replacing Lotte Lehmann as Sieglinde with golden age iconic cast.......Miss Astrid Varnay


I have it. Wonderful but not as dramatically as in bayreuth. I mean. We have Modl/Varnay and Varnay/Modl but not with Kna its a dream (it is easy to dream...)
But also this second 55 DW is better directed in my opinion than the 1st. So with Kna would be ....


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## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> 41 MET Walkure radio broadcast, 23 year old student singer makes her MET debut replacing Lotte Lehmann as Sieglinde with golden age iconic cast.......Miss Astrid Varnay


The young Varnay's Sieglinde was wonderful, and came as a real shock to me in that she actually sounded like the young soprano she was, with a bright tone and quick vibrato. This wouldn't be surprising had her voice not put on weight quickly with a rich diet of Wagner, and although the difference may be partly a matter of recorded sound, I think I can hear changes in both timbre and articulation already in the Met _Lohengrin_ broadcast from 1942, only a year later. I first heard Varnay on radio transcriptions from Bayreuth back in the '60s, when she was near the end of her career as a soprano (she transitioned to mezzo roles, as did Martha Modl). My reference Brunnhilde then was Nilsson, and I was taken aback, and not pleased, by Varnay's weighty, mature sound, with its dark timbre (someone likened it to black marble), deep chest register, loose vibrato, and paint-peeling high notes. The Varnay of 1941 is hardly recognizable as the same singer. It's too bad we don't have more performances from that early stage of her career.


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## DarkAngel

^^^^ Astrid had 114 MET opera performances from 1941 debut thru 1951 before Bayreuth tenure, almost all Wagner

R. Bing took over MET in 1950 and almost immediately dismantled the world famous MET Wagner group, fortunately Astrid had another Wagner gig in Germany (thanks to Flagstad)


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## amfortas

DarkAngel said:


> 41 MET Walkure radio broadcast, 23 year old student singer makes her MET debut replacing Lotte Lehmann as Sieglinde with golden age iconic cast.......Miss Astrid Varnay


Her first performance on *any* operatic stage. And as if that weren't enough, six days later she stepped in for Helen Traubel as Brünnhilde.


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## Granate

DarkAngel said:


> R. Bing took over MET in 1950 and almost immediately dismantled the world famous MET Wagner Ring, fortunately Astrid had another gig in Germany (thanks to Flagstad)


Seeing today's legacy, we could guess what would have improved this glorious singing decade.

Me, I just wished that Furtwängler could have lived more to record an entire _Parsifal_ and that EMI had much better engineering equipment to record the RAI Ring. They should also have skipped the Vienna Ring project to complete the Beethoven studio symphony cycle.

Columbia and Angel's ommision for 20 years of the Grail opera or a secondary studio Ring project still drives me nuts. Did they actually lack the right singers under contract? Were they actually focused on releasing the Callas Bel Canto studio catalogue in the 50s and paying the fees of greater Italian singers?


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## DarkAngel

amfortas said:


> Her first performance on *any* operatic stage. And as if that weren't enough, six days later she stepped in for Helen Traubel as Brünnhilde.


Quite an exciting 1st week at work for Astrid, also attack on Pearl Harbor happened same week 12/07/1941........


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## amfortas

DarkAngel said:


> Quite an exciting 1st week at work for Astrid, also attack on Pearl Harbor happened same week 12/07/1941........


Yes, the day after her debut. She had to settle for second billing.


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## 89Koechel

Thanks for mentioning the Naxos disc - I had NO idea it existed. … The Simax Vol. 1 set is truly excellent, representative of Flagstad in her best years, and am surprised it's still available! … Simax Vol. 4, BTW, has her and Bruno Walter (1952) in the Wesendonk Lieder. There was (or maybe IS) still a 10-CD set from intensemedia.de, which had her and the estimable Gerald Moore (1948) in the same Lieder. She remains one of the most-enduring and PUREST of all female Wagnerian voices, IMO.


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## gardibolt

The Naxos disc is indeed excellent. The Cosima Era is fascinating but a tough go for more than a light sample at a time, at least for me. 

How is the sound quality on the Early Flagstad set?

Picked up the Pristine Leinsdorf 1961/62 Met Ring (or 3/4 of it) in the Black Friday sale along with several other things for less than 50 bucks.

The Krauss Ring sounds great on the Pristine version, but the Orfeo set from the original tapes is indispensable and sounds pretty much as good as the Pristine (plus it has the opening timpani roll for Siegfried that is missing from every other version).


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## wkasimer

gardibolt said:


> How is the sound quality on the Early Flagstad set?


Good enough that you'll quickly forget that the recordings are from as early as 1913. KF is, BTW, one of the few singers who recorded both acoustic 78's and stereo LP's.


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## Music Snob

gardibolt said:


> The Naxos disc is indeed excellent. The Cosima Era is fascinating but a tough go for more than a light sample at a time, at least for me.
> 
> How is the sound quality on the Early Flagstad set?
> 
> Picked up the Pristine Leinsdorf 1961/62 Met Ring (or 3/4 of it) in the Black Friday sale along with several other things for less than 50 bucks.
> 
> The Krauss Ring sounds great on the Pristine version, but the Orfeo set from the original tapes is indispensable and sounds pretty much as good as the Pristine (plus it has the opening timpani roll for Siegfried that is missing from every other version).


gardibolt- First let me say that the Unheard Beethoven is righteous.

Where would you say that the Krauss Ring ranks among the 50's Bayreuth's? I do not own it as I was waiting for Pristine's next 30% sale. Is it better just to save $ and go with the Orfeo? Is it really as good as it's hyped to be?

As I'm writing this I have the Cosima Era on, Disc 11 on my MP3 player. Anton van Rooy is singing _Abendlich strahlt der Sonne Auge_ from Rheingold. It is from 1908, and it is awesome! The book that came with this box is full of interesting info- for instance Anton van Rooy took part of the "Parsifal Robbery" at the Met in 1903 and was never invited back to Bayreuth. There is even a picture of him in the book.

It's a set to take in small doses for sure, but that old sound in the Wagner repertoire can be real charming...


----------



## gardibolt

Music Snob said:


> gardibolt- First let me say that the Unheard Beethoven is righteous.
> 
> Where would you say that the Krauss Ring ranks among the 50's Bayreuth's? I do not own it as I was waiting for Pristine's next 30% sale. Is it better just to save $ and go with the Orfeo? Is it really as good as it's hyped to be?
> 
> As I'm writing this I have the Cosima Era on, Disc 11 on my MP3 player. Anton van Rooy is singing _Abendlich strahlt der Sonne Auge_ from Rheingold. It is from 1908, and it is awesome! The book that came with this box is full of interesting info- for instance Anton van Rooy took part of the "Parsifal Robbery" at the Met in 1903 and was never invited back to Bayreuth. There is even a picture of him in the book.
> 
> It's a set to take in small doses for sure, but that old sound in the Wagner repertoire can be real charming...


Thanks for the kind words.

The Krauss is to my mind one of the most very enjoyable 1950s Bayreuth Rings. If you made me choose between the Krauss, the 1955 Keilberth and the 1958 Knappertsbusch (which are my top 3), it would be a very tough call. The 55 Keilberth probably would get the edge for the Decca sound, but my answer could easily be Krauss depending on what day you asked me.

I had the Pristine version of the Krauss first, and it's excellent, but the Orfeo is excellent as well and has the merit of being so much closer to the source that I have to give it a slight preference. You should be very happy with either, frankly. Get whichever is cheaper.


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## 89Koechel

Yes, those acoustic-era recordings (incl. van Rooy/1908) can be a listening CHALLENGE of sorts, if one is willing to forgive the slight limitations of the engineerings, of the time. By now, some us are so USED-to listening to the engineerings of the time, that they present (to me) NO problem, whatsoever. … Thanks to you, Bill Kasimer and others for the recommendations for the complete Rings, in certain hands (and batons). It DOES whet the appetite for the possibilities of Leinsdorf, Krauss, Keilberth and others. ….


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## 89Koechel

.... also, I'm not a Furtwangler "fanatic", but I still think one must accept the utter-cogency, overview and extraordinary judgment of tempos, within and without sections, scenes, etc. of WF. In other words, one of the praise-type mentions of one of the Furtwangler Rings, when it appeared, decades ago ... was that he could sustain the "string", so to speak, of coherency throughout the dozen-plus hours of listening. That doesn't mean that a Furtwangler Ring was "better" than one from Leinsdorf, or Keilberth, et. al., but I think it DOES mean that a certain standard was set.


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## DarkAngel

gardibolt said:


> The Krauss is to my mind one of the most very enjoyable 1950s Bayreuth Rings. If you made me choose between the Krauss, the 1955 Keilberth and the 1958 Knappertsbusch (which are my top 3), it would be a very tough call. The 55 Keilberth probably would get the edge for the Decca sound, but my answer could easily be Krauss depending on what day you asked me.


Besides the fact that Pristine XR has done an amazing job in restoring sound of this 53 Ring it is very desirable because we have the great 50s singers (including Windgassen now) in freshest youthful voice and Clemens Krauss has the fastest tempo of the 50s Bayreuth Rings (compared to Keilberth & Knap) Wagner family invited Krauss to Bayreuth festival because of his R Strauss fame, there is often a strong correlation in that most great Wagner conductors also excel at R Strauss opera.....Krauss also has a great 53 Parsifal issued on Pristine XR label

Unfortunately for health reasons Krauss was only conducting the 53 season and passed away the following year.....


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## Music Snob

I do think I will wait to get the Pristine Krauss- Although right now the Knappertsbusch 56-58 seems to be best for me...keeping in mind I'm no expert on the scores.

I forgot to mention that Pristine is having Wagner Weekend until midnight Central European time Monday- which is probably in about 12 minutes...should've posted earlier. 20% off all Wagner.

I just picked up 1937 Siegfried.


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## Itullian

One of the best Meisters.
Becoming a favorite.


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## wkasimer

Itullian said:


> One of the best Meisters.
> Becoming a favorite.


I must confess that I find this one of those "sacred cow" recording that fails to live up to its reputation, mostly because of casting issues. What do you like about it?


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## Itullian

^^^^I don't know about "sacred cow" 
I think Edelmann is a perfect Sachs and Schwarzkopf the perfect Eva.
Not a big fan of Hopf. but he's not awful.
Karajan paces the score well, even though I prefer a more spacious tempo.
It all seems cheerful and in good spirits.
just mho


----------



## Music Snob

Friends, what does anyone know of this Mega-Box of 203 CD's of Hans Knappertsbusch, including all 3 rings from 56-58 and all the Parsifal's sans 1955?

https://www.hmv.co.jp/en/artist_Cla...sch-Collector-s-Edition-203CD-Limited_8645025

I think after shipping it runs about 350$.

Here is a video of the unboxing-


----------



## Itullian

^^^^ I know nothing about that box, but I am a Knappy fan.
I have the Ring and a couple of the Parsifals and they are among my favorites.
Also his Tristan is awesome.

That looks like a great collection. Enjoy it!


----------



## DarkAngel

Music Snob said:


> Friends, what does anyone know of this Mega-Box of 203 CD's of Hans Knappertsbusch, including all 3 rings from 56-58 and all the Parsifal's sans 1955?
> 
> https://www.hmv.co.jp/en/artist_Cla...sch-Collector-s-Edition-203CD-Limited_8645025
> 
> I think after shipping it runs about 350$.
> 
> Here is a video of the unboxing-


Someone posted info about two Knap Wagner boxes from HMV Japan some time ago, one has 56-58 Bayreuth Rings and one has Parsifals, who knows what the sound is like.......?????

These are probably included in the larger omnibus Knap megaboxset mentioned........


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> ^^^^I don't know about "sacred cow"
> I think Edelmann is a perfect Sachs and Schwarzkopf the perfect Eva.
> Not a big fan of Hopf. but he's not awful.
> Karajan paces the score well, even though I prefer a more spacious tempo.
> It all seems cheerful and in good spirits.
> just mho


I like the 51 Karajan Meister, but we discussed here before the 52 Knap also with Edelmann is perhaps even better with Della Casa as Eva, no escaping Hopf in early 50s as he was the go to Walther of that time.....


----------



## wkasimer

DarkAngel said:


> I like the 51 Karajan Meister, but we discussed here before the 52 Knap also with Edelmann is perhaps even better with Della Casa as Eva, no escaping Hopf in early 50s as he was the go to Walther of that time.....


IMO, Della Casa is a huge upgrade as Eva. But Hopf is still hopelessly miscast. The role doesn't sound right with that sort of baritonal voice - it's much better with a more lyric sound, like Heppner's, Konya's, Botha's, Seiffert's, or even Schock's. Edelmann had a fine instrument and certainly sings better than most bass-baritones in the role of Sachs, but he's pretty one-dimensional and short on poetry - he's all cobbler.


----------



## Music Snob

1935 Pristine Classical Walküre Act 1 by Walter is on the way. I downloaded the MP3. If anyone is on the fence about this I would suggest to go for it. I did after hearing Act 1 on YouTube.

I also ordered the Naxos version in order to get the 2nd Act. On Presto Classics it was only 10$. I look forward to comparing the Naxos vs Pristine.

Unfortunately the Walhall 1957 Kna Gotterdammerung is nowhere to be found- for those of you who have it be glad! I will keep looking to see if one pops up somewhere.

Also on the docket is the 1936 Walküre Act 2 conducted by Reiner featuring Flagstad, Lehmann, and Melchior. I read that Flagstad and Lehmann performed only 3 times together.


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## amfortas

Music Snob said:


> Also on the docket is the 1936 Walküre Act 2 conducted by Reiner featuring Flagstad, Lehmann, and Melchior. I read that Flagstad and Lehmann performed only 3 times together.


I've got it; definitely worth adding to your collection.


----------



## rw181383

Since most of this survey covers recordings before 1970: http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2018/Dec/Wagner_Meistersinger_survey.pdf


----------



## davidglasgow

rw181383 said:


> Since most of this survey covers recordings before 1970: http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2018/Dec/Wagner_Meistersinger_survey.pdf


Thanks for sharing this


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## howlingfantods

rw181383 said:


> Since most of this survey covers recordings before 1970: http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2018/Dec/Wagner_Meistersinger_survey.pdf


Excellent rundown. I like Solti II a lot more than Ralph does, but I'm a sucker for Van Dam in everything, even when he's clearly past his peak, and he likes Frantz's Sachs better than I do and dislikes Hopf much less than I do.

I'm surprised he reviewed the Cluytens with Neidlinger at Bayreuth but didn't include the Cluytens with Hotter the year before, or the Jochum/Hotter for that matter. I appreciated him shining a light on the three Bohm recordings (Act 3 with Nissen in 1938, the 1944 with Schoffler and the 1968 with Adam)--all excellent recordings that get too little attention generally speaking.


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## Granate

Back at home for Christmas. Besides my Dvorak symphony challenge, I have nothing worth telling in this forum. I don't feel I have the time to post and I've yet to finish some Masters coursework for early January.

I hope I can give a listen to some of them soon.


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## Barbebleu

Coming soon to this thread, my Rheingold comments following it with the Eulenburg Study Score. The Rheingold I chose is the Prague 1968 conducted by Hans Swarovski. No particular reason other than I hadn't heard it before!


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## Barbebleu

Of course my post above has a glaring error!! Nürnberg 1968, not Prague!! The orchestra and singers were predominantly Czech though.


----------



## Gondowe

Sorry if this is not the correct thread.
Anybody knows if the Koch Schwann recordings from the Wiener Staatsoper were released by any other label?
Or if, for instance, there is some Knappertsbusch or Furtwangler set with their recordings from the WS?
Anyway, Do you know where I can find them from KS?
Greetings


----------



## amfortas

rw181383 said:


> Since most of this survey covers recordings before 1970: http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2018/Dec/Wagner_Meistersinger_survey.pdf


Interesting that he favors Solti I as his studio stereo set of choice; certainly a minority view. But that's what different opinions are for!


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## wkasimer

Gondowe said:


> Anybody knows if the Koch Schwann recordings from the Wiener Staatsoper were released by any other label?
> Or if, for instance, there is some Knappertsbusch or Furtwangler set with their recordings from the WS?
> Anyway, Do you know where I can find them from KS?
> Greetings


I don't believe that they've been picked up by another label. They show up used on eBay and the Amazon Marketplace, and are usually not very expensive. They were issued during a period when I was short on $$$, so I only have one or two.

I assume that you're aware of their sonic and musical limitations.


----------



## Gondowe

wkasimer said:


> I assume that you're aware of their sonic and musical limitations.


Yes, Im aware. Me, like you had the same problem of money, time ago. And ony have the vol 2 and 11. But now Im better, and I want to complete kna or furt discography. Somethingcan be obtained from youtube, but only few things.
Greetings


----------



## Itullian

For you Wagner fans that can't spend a mint for the Krauss Ring, this is a special edition from Opera d'Oro.
It includes 5 beautiful booklets(the librettos for each opera and one on the overall recording.
It's selling for about 30 dollars on Amazon. fyi


----------



## ivanmaxim

Itullian said:


> Hello, and welcome to our Historical Wagner thread.
> 
> No, the other 2 volumes of the '55 Keilberth were not released.
> Some kind of technical problems or just not very good sound on those recordings.
> 
> I haven't heard them all, but I believe the consensus is that the issue in the blue box, Pan Classics, is the best sound.
> The mono sound is good and I don't remember any problems with it.


Hi new here but wanted to chime in. I spoke to the head of Testament and he said there were technical issue with the Siegfried final duet(the only thing different from the earlier date) and saw no need to issue the Rheingold since it was exactly the same cast as the earlier date and he didn't think it would sell.


----------



## ivanmaxim

Granate said:


> *Wagner*
> DER RING DES NIBELUNGEN WWV 86 Live recording
> 
> *Chor und Orchester der Bayreuther Festspiele
> Joseph Keilberth
> Pan Classics (1953/2014 Remastered Edition)*
> 
> I don't remember hearing that lack of balance in my CD copies from Membran, but the Andromeda/Pan Classics remaster is the most advanced release in terms of SQ. Voices are extremely clear. You get instead the Krauss Siegfried Act I, but Windgassen's forging song would be awful in both runs I'm afraid.
> 
> I'd like to discuss so much more things that I've been listening to, especially the new Ring reviews I'm writing down.


I have the Melodram issue which includes a wonderful interview with Modl


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

rw181383 said:


> Since most of this survey covers recordings before 1970: http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2018/Dec/Wagner_Meistersinger_survey.pdf


I'm shocked that he left out the 1943 Schöffler/Abendroth, well-recorded and perhaps the most acclaimed pre-stereo live account. I read Furtwängler left the performance saying, "could not have done it better myself."

Obviously the direct comparison would be with the 1944 Schöffler/Böhm.


----------



## DarkAngel

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I'm shocked that he left out the 1943 Schöffler/Abendroth, well-recorded and perhaps the most acclaimed pre-stereo live account. I read Furtwängler left the performance saying, "could not have done it better myself."
> 
> Obviously the direct comparison would be with the 1944 Schöffler/Böhm.


We have mentioned the 43 Abendroth a few times here in the past with favorable impressions, you are right it is very good sound for that time......was cheap used before (not now), I got it for under $15 at Amazon few years ago

I give kudos to author of Meister survey for giving high marks to 56 Kempe studio especially with his mention of Pristine XR version......


----------



## Granate

ivanmaxim said:


> I have the Melodram issue which includes a wonderful interview with Modl


I think that Membran stole the Melodram files for their Mondrian cheap box (which I own). Andromeda remastered the voices to almost definitive sound and it was retaken in the Pan Classics recent release.

I don't know what is more tempting: 30€ for a complete Krauss Ring with libretti for the works or 30€ for the definitive Keilberth Ring in best sound. Counting all the Wagner CDs I own, I don't think I need any other recording than the rest of the Knappertsbusch ring. Kempe 1960 (on sale right now) is no challenge for my Böhm Philips set.

I never know if I need more operas or more symphonies in my library :lol: Beethoven hit me really hard yesterday and Verdi did too a month ago.


----------



## SixFootScowl

I avoided this thread for the most part until recently I obtained an historical Ring quite spontaneously by bidding on Ebay on a whim. This is what I got for about $20 shipped used VG.










It turns out to be a very respectable performance, quite worth having, and so now I am more excited to delve into historical Rings. But what is historical?

Is the 1968 Sawallisch Ring historical? I have it so it would be a logical choice for my next listen. Here is one of the operas for example:


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

Fritz Kobus said:


> I avoided this thread for the most part until recently I obtained an historical Ring quite spontaneously by bidding on Ebay on a whim. This is what I got for about $20 shipped used VG.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It turns out to be a very respectable performance, quite worth having, and so now I am more excited to delve into historical Rings. But what is historical?
> 
> Is the 1968 Sawallisch Ring historical? I have it so it would be a logical choice for my next listen. Here is one of the operas for example:


The two must-have historical Rings IMO are 1950 Furtwängler/La Scala (Pristine if you can afford it, or Gebhardt) and 1957 Knappertsbusch on Walhall. The sound on the Kna is astonishingly vivid.

I just ordered the 1953 Keilberth based on the recommendations here.

I am currently on a Christmas Tristan kick. Have ordered 10 in the past week!


----------



## Barbebleu

Fritz Kobus said:


> I avoided this thread for the most part until recently I obtained an historical Ring quite spontaneously by bidding on Ebay on a whim. This is what I got for about $20 shipped used VG.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It turns out to be a very respectable performance, quite worth having, and so now I am more excited to delve into historical Rings. But what is historical?
> 
> Is the 1968 Sawallisch Ring historical? I have it so it would be a logical choice for my next listen. Here is one of the operas for example:


My own personal definition of historical is a recording at least 50 years old so anything from '68 backwards would qualify.

I apologise for not having my Rheingold review posted yet. I listened to it while following the score. Interesting and revealing! My wife got me the Eulenburg study scores for Walküre and Siegfried for my Xmas so I intend to do a Walküre (New York 1969/Karajan) and a Siegfried (not decided yet) to go with my Rheingold (Swarovsky/Nürnber 1968) and Götterdämmerung (Bayreuth 1955/2nd cycle) reviews. Hopefully I'll have gone through all four by the middle/end of January. It's a slightly slower process because I occasionally stop to relisten to certain passages to make sure that I heard what I thought I heard!!

I will say that Swarowsky's approach to Rheingold is very faithful to Wagner's markings and instructions. I shall elaborate soon! Honest!:tiphat:


----------



## Barbebleu

Brahmsianhorn said:


> The two must-have historical Rings IMO are 1950 Furtwängler/La Scala (Pristine if you can afford it, or Gebhardt) and 1957 Knappertsbusch on Walhall. The sound on the Kna is astonishingly vivid.
> 
> I just ordered the 1953 Keilberth based on the recommendations here.
> 
> I am currently on a Christmas Tristan kick. Have ordered 10 in the past week!


Which Tristans?


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

Barbebleu said:


> Which Tristans?


So I already had the following going back for years, decades in the case of the Furtwangler:

1936 Reiner
1941 Leinsdorf
1943 Leinsdorf
1952 Furtwangler

I had the unique pleasure of attending Tristan und Isolde this past summer at Bayreuth with Thielemann. Reflecting back on that amazing trip this past week I went on a recording sampling binge and have ordered the following so far:

1935 Bodanzky
1937 Bodanzky
1937 Beecham
1943 Heger
1948 E. Kleiber
1950 Knappertsbusch
1951 De Sabata
1952 Karajan
1966 Bohm
1982 C. Kleiber

They've all impressed me in one way or another which is why I went on this binge. I was really bowled over by Heger. What passion and in such good sound for the period! The Flagstad/Melchior's are all so good I got them all. Flagstad also sounds great and more mature with Erich Kleiber, although in very poor sound. The De Sabata has dreadful sound but the conducting and singing was so good I had to get it.

I was also happily surprised by the Carlos Kleiber. I had heard mixed reviews, but honestly it goes to the top of modern versions for me, even above the celebrated Bohm. Kleiber understands the sensuous passion of this music IMO better than any conductor since Furtwangler. Bohm is in a great acoustic but I felt more impressed than moved. I feel like if I wanted a newbie to appreciate this opera, Kleiber would be the one I'd recommend.

I just finished listening to the Pappano. Not bad, one of the better modern versions if not as enthralling as Kleiber. But oh so beautifully recorded.

I was surprised at how much I liked Goodall, a little subdued but very beautiful.

Solti was not bad - Nilsson is amazing - but his approach is a little gruff.

Bernstein is a one off. I was engrossed at first but less and less as the performance went on, partly because the singers were not as impressive.

Karajan II is impressive but a little icy and with a weak Isolde. I definitely prefer 1952 Bayreuth and its out of this world love duet.

Barenboim just completely left me cold. I felt nothing. I was baffled by this one as many consider it among the top choices.

I also sampled a couple of Walhall issues from the 50's conducted by Sawallisch and Cluytens, but was not impressed enough to get either.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

So after my week of binge T&I listening, I decided to go back last night and hear the Furtwangler again. I was curious if it would sound different to me after all the other Tristans I have sampled.

To my surprise, it sounded better than ever! The interpretation is just a step above everyone else. And the voices are caught so vividly that I recommend this recording to anyone regardless of sound quality preferences. Is Flagstad a little old sounding? Sure, but who cares when the whole performance is so spellbinding! 

This was truly a miracle of the gramophone and worthy of being considered next to the Callas/De Sabata Tosca as one of the two greatest opera recordings of all time.

The essential recordings IMO for anyone's shelf:

Furtwangler
1937 Bodanzky 
Heger
1952 Karajan
1950 Knappertsbusch
Carlos Kleiber
Bohm


----------



## DarkAngel

Brahmsianhorn said:


> So after my week of binge T&I listening, I decided to go back last night and hear the Furtwangler again. I was curious if it would sound different to me after all the other Tristans I have sampled.
> 
> To my surprise, it sounded better than ever! The interpretation is just a step above everyone else. And the voices are caught so vividly that I recommend this recording to anyone regardless of sound quality preferences. Is Flagstad a little old sounding? Sure, but who cares when the whole performance is so spellbinding!
> 
> This was truly a miracle of the gramophone and worthy of being considered next to the Callas/De Sabata Tosca as one of the two greatest opera recordings of all time.
> 
> The essential recordings IMO for anyone's shelf:
> 
> 1952 Furtwangler
> 1937 Bodanzky
> 1943 Heger
> 1952 Karajan
> 1950 Knappertsbusch
> Carlos Kleiber
> Bohm


52 was a very good year for Tristans, magic in the air...........

















I think you are aware that Pristine XR recently released remastered 41 MET Leinsdorf - Tristan


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

DarkAngel said:


> 52 was a very good year for Tristans, magic in the air...........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think you are aware that Pristine XR recently released remastered 41 MET Leinsdorf - Tristan


I wish I could afford more of those Pristine issues! So far I have only gotten the Huberman Beethoven/Brahms concertos. The violin tone sounded very scratchy on the previous CD incarnations of the Brahms, but they were cleaned up in the Pristine version.

I think next on my Pristine wish list would probably be the 1950 La Scala Furtwangler Ring.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Barbebleu said:


> My own personal definition of historical is a recording at least 50 years old so anything from '68 backwards would qualify.
> 
> I apologise for not having my Rheingold review posted yet. I listened to it while following the score. Interesting and revealing! My wife got me the Eulenburg study scores for Walküre and Siegfried for my Xmas so I intend to do a Walküre (New York 1969/Karajan) and a Siegfried (not decided yet) to go with my Rheingold (Swarovsky/Nürnber 1968) and Götterdämmerung (Bayreuth 1955/2nd cycle) reviews. Hopefully I'll have gone through all four by the middle/end of January. It's a slightly slower process because I occasionally stop to relisten to certain passages to make sure that I heard what I thought I heard!!
> 
> I will say that Swarowsky's approach to Rheingold is very faithful to Wagner's markings and instructions. I shall elaborate soon! Honest!:tiphat:


Ah yes, I have Swarowsky's Ring and like it!


----------



## wkasimer

Fritz Kobus said:


> Is the 1968 Sawallisch Ring historical? I have it so it would be a logical choice for my next listen. Here is one of the operas for example:


I don't know if it's historical, but the Siegfried is essential.


----------



## SixFootScowl

wkasimer said:


> I don't know if it's historical, but the Siegfried is essential.


I have Rheingold, Siegfried, and Gotterdammerung. Missing is Walkure and they want $150 on Amazon!  But there is a streaming site for the whole Sawallisch Roma 1968 Ring.


----------



## DarkAngel

$42 at operadepot.....


----------



## SixFootScowl

DarkAngel said:


> $42 at operadepot.....


And free at the streaming site (there is a way to download the tracks though they don't present it that way), but I wanted actual MYTO set and got three of them for $10 each from Norbeck, Peters & Ford during a clearance sale. I had Walkure nailed for $50 at some site and then they pulled the rug out from under me, said it was sold.


----------



## WildThing

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I'm shocked that he left out the 1943 Schöffler/Abendroth, well-recorded and perhaps the most acclaimed pre-stereo live account. I read Furtwängler left the performance saying, "could not have done it better myself."


I think Furtwängler was perhaps being a little modest here. His own (unfortunately incomplete) performance from 1943 showcases what is perhaps the most exceptional conducting put down on record of this opera.


----------



## Barbebleu

WildThing said:


> I think Furtwängler was perhaps being a little modest here. His own (unfortunately incomplete) performance from 1943 showcases what is perhaps the most exceptional conducting put down on record of this opera.


I agree, although I would say that the Abendroth is very fine.


----------



## Itullian

Last night.
Tristan fans need to hear this.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

Mailman came today and dropped off three legendary Tristans


----------



## Itullian

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Mailman came today and dropped off three legendary Tristans
> 
> View attachment 111248


The Karajan and Knappertsbusch are GREAT!
I cant tell what the other one is.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> The Karajan and Knappertsbusch are GREAT!
> I cant tell what the other one is.


50 MET Traubel...........Vinay's Tristan here and 52 Karajan Bayreuth










Although perhaps more desirable is the 43 MET Traubel on Naxos.......
(and the famous Traubel / Melchior 2CD set of wagner segments)

















*Hey BH,,,,,*
We need to work on that coffee maker, person of your stature needs full expresso capabilities with frothing wand etc


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

DarkAngel said:


> 50 MET Traubel...........Vinay's Tristan here and 52 Karajan Bayreuth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Although perhaps more desirable is the 43 MET Traubel on Naxos.......
> (and the famous Traubel / Melchior 2CD set of wagner segments)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Hey BH,,,,,*
> We need to work on that coffee maker, person of your stature needs full expresso capabilities with frothing wand etc


Look closer, the picture is a little different


----------



## DarkAngel

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Look closer, the picture is a little different


My bad, going very old school with 37 MET Flagstad.......about the coffee maker, ha ha


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

DarkAngel said:


> My bad, going very old school with 37 MET Flagstad.......about the coffee maker, ha ha


Actually I have given up coffee for the New Year. Ha!

Oh, and I do have the '43 Traubel at the Met on Naxos. Haven't listened to it in a long while but will give it a spin.


----------



## Barbebleu

They said it would never happen but here we go!

Das Rheingold, Hans Swarowsky, Nurnberg 1968, Eulenburg Study score to hand.

Where to start? As Julie Andrews sang, Let's start at the very beginning, a very good place to start.

I should first of all state that I do not intend to give some sort of in-depth analysis of the recording but rather some general observations while following the score.

First a word about the score itself. The Eulenburg is based on the first printed performing edition of 1876 which Wagner made amendments and additions to during the rehearsals for the first production.

The original autograph copy was given to Ludwig as a birthday present on 25 August 1865. It subsequently found its way to the Wittelsbach Compensation Fund and from there to the Chamber of Trade & Industry who gave it to Hitler on his 50th birthday along with the autograph copies of Die Feen, Das Liebesverbot, Rienzi and Die Walkure, all of which have been lost since 1945.

They were assumed destroyed in the fall of Berlin but I have another theory. Either the Russians found and took them or more likely, they were put in a vault in a Swiss bank where they languish to this day. I think that any safe deposit box account in any bank in Switzerland that was opened between 1933 and 1945 that hasn't been attended to since, should be opened up and the contents curated!

I digress.

Das Rheingold, Bar One.

There are no metronome indications but Wagner has written Ruhig heitere Bewegung - Calmly, moving serenely.

I think we all have an idea in our minds about how the Rhine flows. Although the tempo is marked 6/8 I feel it as if I was gently rowing down the Rhine. Clearly Maestro Swarowsky didn't get that memo. He sees it as more of an Oxford/Cambridge boat race. He clocks the prelude in at 3'40" which is about a minute quicker than most others but a leisurely sail compared to Otto Suitner in 1967. He jet-skis in at 3'!!. However it doesn't feel fast, it feels right and the point is he still gives it gravitas and it has an internal impetus that does justice to the orchestration.

These sort of comparisons are odious and misleading. Conductors who have a real grip of the internal flow of a piece can make a quick pace feel slower than it is and vice versa. This, I feel is the case with Swarowsky, and although quick he doesn't seem rushed.

Wagner's own instructions are worth some attention. At bar 3208 there is the instruction Masig und sehr ruhig - Moderate tempo and very calm, which he clarifies with and 1876 footnote on the page - Gehendes. nicht langsames tempo - Walking tempo, not slow - amplified further with a general note - "Ein ganz langsames Tempo kommt im ganzen Rheingold nicht vor" - "There is no truly slow tempo in Das Rheingold. He also casually commented at bar 826 "If you weren't all such slowcoaches, Rheingold would be over in 2 hours!" An exaggeration of course, but you get the gist. 

Swarowsky and the singers are extremely faithful in their application of Wagner's musical instructions. One example, at bar 385 during Flosshilde's mock wooing of Alberich, the phrase - Warst du mir hold - is marked piano and Hilde Roser sings it as marked which gives a beautifully observed, almost loving, inflection to the phrase. Ignore Wagner's instructions at your peril!!

I'm not going to say that every marking is observed but they do get an awful lot right. Two further examples - bars 519 to 530, the horns are marked as piano and they are indeed beautifully played as such.

Lest you think I've forgotten the original point of this post, praise can be given to all concerned in this recording. There are better sung versions available, but not overwhelmingly so, and there are certainly worse ones. All concerned are never less than acceptable but I will single out Rolfe Polke (Wotan), Rolf Kuhne (Alberich) and Fritz Uhl (Loge) as very fine in their interpretation of the three key roles in Rheingold. Fritz Uhl, in particular, is a superbly sung and acted Loge. Incidentally has anyone else noticed that the German word for lies is luge! Not a million miles from the trickster supreme's own name!

Herold Kraus is an excellent unwhining (is that a word?) Mime. 

The Rhinemaidens are very articulate and their joy when the gold reveals itself is extremely thrilling. The march to Valhalla is powerful and energetic. One can almost hear Wotan saying - "Right people, it's showtime, we're Gods, not mortals, lets get on with it. These halls aren't going to fill themselves with dead heroes!"

Well that's it folks. I could ramble on but suffice to say that the felicities of Wagner's orchestration never cease to astound and just think, he hadn't even sat Siegfried down under a tree yet. The best is yet to come.:tiphat:


----------



## SixFootScowl

Turns out this is a very nice Ring. But why pay OperaDepot $40+ when you can download it free here:
http://www.operatoday.com/content/2009/04/der_ring_des_ni.php


----------



## Andrew Kenneth

Music Snob said:


> (...)
> Unfortunately the Walhall 1957 Kna Gotterdammerung is nowhere to be found- for those of you who have it be glad! I will keep looking to see if one pops up somewhere.
> (...)


There is one available on Amazon Italy.


----------



## Music Snob

Andrew Kenneth said:


> There is one available on Amazon Italy.


I just checked and didn't see one available. I did find it on amazon Spain on Sunday and made the purchase- I have my confirmation # and everything although I was told it would take 2-3 days before shipping...so I'm still a little skeptical. I will feel better once it is shipped, and then more so when it arrives and I see that the right product was shipped. I'm really enamored with the Kna performances (most of the time).


----------



## Music Snob

Barbebleu said:


> They said it would never happen but here we go!
> 
> Das Rheingold, Hans Swarowsky, Nurnberg 1968, Eulenburg Study score to hand.
> 
> Where to start? As Julie Andrews sang, Let's start at the very beginning, a very good place to start.
> 
> I should first of all state that I do not intend to give some sort of in-depth analysis of the recording but rather some general observations while following the score.
> 
> First a word about the score itself. The Eulenburg is based on the first printed performing edition of 1876 which Wagner made amendments and additions to during the rehearsals for the first production.
> 
> The original autograph copy was given to Ludwig as a birthday present on 25 August 1865. It subsequently found its way to the Wittelsbach Compensation Fund and from there to the Chamber of Trade & Industry who gave it to Hitler on his 50th birthday along with the autograph copies of Die Feen, Das Liebesverbot, Rienzi and Die Walkure, all of which have been lost since 1945.
> 
> They were assumed destroyed in the fall of Berlin but I have another theory. Either the Russians found and took them or more likely, they were put in a vault in a Swiss bank where they languish to this day. I think that any safe deposit box account in any bank in Switzerland that was opened between 1933 and 1945 that hasn't been attended to since, should be opened up and the contents curated!
> 
> I digress.
> 
> Das Rheingold, Bar One.
> 
> There are no metronome indications but Wagner has written Ruhig heitere Bewegung - Calmly, moving serenely.
> 
> I think we all have an idea in our minds about how the Rhine flows. Although the tempo is marked 6/8 I feel it as if I was gently rowing down the Rhine. Clearly Maestro Swarowsky didn't get that memo. He sees it as more of an Oxford/Cambridge boat race. He clocks the prelude in at 3'40" which is about a minute quicker than most others but a leisurely sail compared to Otto Suitner in 1967. He jet-skis in at 3'!!. However it doesn't feel fast, it feels right and the point is he still gives it gravitas and it has an internal impetus that does justice to the orchestration.
> 
> These sort of comparisons are odious and misleading. Conductors who have a real grip of the internal flow of a piece can make a quick pace feel slower than it is and vice versa. This, I feel is the case with Swarowsky, and although quick he doesn't seem rushed.
> 
> Wagner's own instructions are worth some attention. At bar 3208 there is the instruction Masig und sehr ruhig - Moderate tempo and very calm, which he clarifies with and 1876 footnote on the page - Gehendes. nicht langsames tempo - Walking tempo, not slow - amplified further with a general note - "Ein ganz langsames Tempo kommt im ganzen Rheingold nicht vor" - "There is no truly slow tempo in Das Rheingold. He also casually commented at bar 826 "If you weren't all such slowcoaches, Rheingold would be over in 2 hours!" An exaggeration of course, but you get the gist.
> 
> Swarowsky and the singers are extremely faithful in their application of Wagner's musical instructions. One example, at bar 385 during Flosshilde's mock wooing of Alberich, the phrase - Warst du mir hold - is marked piano and Hilde Roser sings it as marked which gives a beautifully observed, almost loving, inflection to the phrase. Ignore Wagner's instructions at your peril!!
> 
> I'm not going to say that every marking is observed but they do get an awful lot right. Two further examples - bars 519 to 530, the horns are marked as piano and they are indeed beautifully played as such.
> 
> Lest you think I've forgotten the original point of this post, praise can be given to all concerned in this recording. There are better sung versions available, but not overwhelmingly so, and there are certainly worse ones. All concerned are never less than acceptable but I will single out Rolfe Polke (Wotan), Rolf Kuhne (Alberich) and Fritz Uhl (Loge) as very fine in their interpretation of the three key roles in Rheingold. Fritz Uhl, in particular, is a superbly sung and acted Loge. Incidentally has anyone else noticed that the German word for lies is luge! Not a million miles from the trickster supreme's own name!
> 
> Herold Kraus is an excellent unwhining (is that a word?) Mime.
> 
> The Rhinemaidens are very articulate and their joy when the gold reveals itself is extremely thrilling. The march to Valhalla is powerful and energetic. One can almost hear Wotan saying - "Right people, it's showtime, we're Gods, not mortals, lets get on with it. These halls aren't going to fill themselves with dead heroes!"
> 
> Well that's it folks. I could ramble on but suffice to say that the felicities of Wagner's orchestration never cease to astound and just think, he hadn't even sat Siegfried down under a tree yet. The best is yet to come.:tiphat:


I find that the scores are revealing. I'm not sure that the rhythm of the loud hits (for lack of a better term) of Siegfried's March sound right to me on most recordings. The last hit is supposed to be an eighth note and not a sixteenth, and it seems the second pair of hits come in a 16'th early it seems.. However, little old me knows next to nothing about this stuff. I found some problems with recordings of the "Ah guarda, sorella" of Cosi fan Tutte by following the score.


----------



## Barbebleu

Music Snob said:


> I find that the scores are revealing. I'm not sure that the rhythm of the loud hits (for lack of a better term) of Siegfried's March sound right to me on most recordings. The last hit is supposed to be an eighth note and not a sixteenth, and it seems the second pair of hits come in a 16'th early it seems.. However, little old me knows next to nothing about this stuff. I found some problems with recordings of the "Ah guarda, sorella" of Cosi fan Tutte by following the score.


So now it appears that when I get to Götterdämmerung I've to compare all my versions of the Funeral March! Yikes! :lol:I'll be having my own Funeral after comparing 53 of them. I tend to use the score to illuminate my listening and not to find faults, of which I'm sure there are plenty. A great chess player once said, and the quote applies to pretty well everything, "all the mistakes are there just waiting to be made!"

Btw, which recording has the premature appearance of the second pair of tympani beats, or is everyone guilty?


----------



## Granate

A very disappointing listening of Knappertsbusch 52 Parsifal led me to try other recordings: I didn't remember how poor the recording sounded. I've been with the complete 60 recording, which I really like vocally, only Act I of the 1964 one (cannot bear Hotter yet), and the star-studed 1967 one which seems to always please me with very poor sound. Now trying the first 1966 Boulez with noisy recordings of Acts I and III and a pristine demonstration register of Act II.


----------



## Music Snob

Barbebleu said:


> So now it appears that when I get to Götterdämmerung I've to compare all my versions of the Funeral March! Yikes! :lol:I'll be having my own Funeral after comparing 53 of them. I tend to use the score to illuminate my listening and not to find faults, of which I'm sure there are plenty. A great chess player once said, and the quote applies to pretty well everything, "all the mistakes are there just waiting to be made!"
> 
> Btw, which recording has the premature appearance of the second pair of tympani beats, or is everyone guilty?


Honestly the Keilberth 55 seemed to be right- at least as far as I can tell by counting. I'm sure the problem lies with me although score in hand it sounds off on just about every version. Also, on the 2nd pair of hits the notes are a 16th and then an 8th. (They are to be played on the 2nd and 3rd 16th notes of the 2nd beat.) That second note should ring out just a bit longer.

Check out the score to Parsifal- the music breathes and I've yet to hear a version that's played as exactly as written- I'm sure Wagner intended music to played with more life and spirit than just time- beating.


----------



## Barbebleu

Music Snob said:


> Check out the score to Parsifal- the music breathes and I've yet to hear a version that's played as exactly as written- I'm sure Wagner intended music to played with more life and spirit than just time- beating.


Even the '62 and '64 Knas?


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## Music Snob

Here is the Vorspeil. Tell me what ya think? This is just a piano transcription but the score is just about the same as far as tempo indications. The first page of the prelude can be found online easily.


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## Barbebleu

I have the study score so I'll have a look. What is it that you find annoying about the interpretations you've heard? I wouldn't accuse Kna or Karajan or Kubelik or Leinsdorf of being mere timekeepers. Do you think they are not playing what is written or do you just disagree with their approach? There are many approaches to playing any composition and unless you have the composer looking over your shoulder keeping you right then who can say what is correct?

If you do not have a clear tempo indication, from say a metronome, then what sounds the right tempo to me might not sound right to you. Very slowly means nothing unless you have a base tempo from which you can gauge how slowly to go until you get to "very slowly." Do you perhaps think they're ignoring the second instruction and that they lack expression? It's the same with piano and fortissimo. What's quiet and what's very loud mean nothing if you don't know what the "ordinary" volume is. 

I used to think that Karajan's dynamics were the fault of the DG engineers until I heard a live performance from the Met and you could barely hear his pianissimos and his fortissimos were nothing compared to other conductors although the dynamic range was probably comparable.


----------



## Music Snob

Barbebleu said:


> I have the study score so I'll have a look. What is it that you find annoying about the interpretations you've heard? I wouldn't accuse Kna or Karajan or Kubelik or Leinsdorf of being mere timekeepers. Do you think they are not playing what is written or do you just disagree with their approach? There are many approaches to playing any composition and unless you have the composer looking over your shoulder keeping you right then who can say what is correct?
> 
> If you do not have a clear tempo indication, from say a metronome, then what sounds the right tempo to me might not sound right to you. Very slowly means nothing unless you have a base tempo from which you can gauge how slowly to go until you get to "very slowly." Do you perhaps think they're ignoring the second instruction and that they lack expression? It's the same with piano and fortissimo. What's quiet and what's very loud mean nothing if you don't know what the "ordinary" volume is.
> 
> I used to think that Karajan's dynamics were the fault of the DG engineers until I heard a live performance from the Met and you could barely hear his pianissimos and his fortissimos were nothing compared to other conductors although the dynamic range was probably comparable.


That is very interesting that you got to hear Karajan live. I thought that would've been the engineers as well playing around with the dynamics. May I ask what year?

I think it is not so much the big picture with conducting that I find annoying but just little freeze frames within the score that I sometimes zero in on and scratch my head- almost literally because I cannot trust my own judgement in these regards most of the time. I'm not at the level as all the people involved in these recordings... for instance that part in Siegfried's funeral I mentioned.


----------



## Woodduck

Music Snob said:


> Check out the score to Parsifal- the music breathes and I've yet to hear a version that's played as exactly as written- I'm sure Wagner intended music to played with more life and spirit than just time- beating.


Unless you're talking about wrong or missed notes, there is, generally speaking, no such thing as "exactly as written" in music. Wagner himself is known to have conducted the prelude to _Parsifal_ on two occasions at very different tempos.


----------



## Barbebleu

Music Snob said:


> That is very interesting that you got to hear Karajan live. I thought that would've been the engineers as well playing around with the dynamics. May I ask what year?
> 
> I think it is not so much the big picture with conducting that I find annoying but just little freeze frames within the score that I sometimes zero in on and scratch my head- almost literally because I cannot trust my own judgement in these regards most of the time. I'm not at the level as all the people involved in these recordings... for instance that part in Siegfried's funeral I mentioned.


1969. My cousin had moved out to New York to join a vet's practice and she knew that I was a keen opera fan so she got me a ticket for Das Rheingold and I stayed with her for a week.


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## 89Koechel

Thanks for these interesting examples of one of the least-known Rings, incl. the inclusion of how to download them. Now, there'll be ANOTHER version … of Rheingold, at least … to compare-with those of the master - Furtwangler.


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## gardibolt

ivanmaxim said:


> Hi new here but wanted to chime in. I spoke to the head of Testament and he said there were technical issue with the Siegfried final duet(the only thing different from the earlier date) and saw no need to issue the Rheingold since it was exactly the same cast as the earlier date and he didn't think it would sell.


Interesting....when I contacted Testament with the same question I was told the other two weren't recorded at all.


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## gardibolt

Listening right now to the Pristine Walküre Leinsdorf/Met 1962. Nilsson of course is great and there are some rough casting choices, but man alive does Vickers ever give it his all as Siegmund in Act I! Really stunning.


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## rw181383

Another survey on MusicWeb, this time it's Parsifal!

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Jan/Wagner_Parsifal_survey.pdf


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## Granate

rw181383 said:


> Another survey on MusicWeb, this time it's Parsifal!


I'll just settle with my agreement with Mr. Moore over Kna 51. I should one time do a formal request in this forum to remaster the first two Parsifals by Pierre Boulez. 1966 and 1967. Absolutely golden singing and perfectly coherent conducting, if not as monumental as Kna. Also, I could finish my second listen of the 1964 final performance.

I still cannot swallow the Kubelík or Karajan, despite their strengths. Would never pay those prices for something so dull or so out-of-place.


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## howlingfantods

rw181383 said:


> Another survey on MusicWeb, this time it's Parsifal!
> 
> http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Jan/Wagner_Parsifal_survey.pdf


Another excellent rundown. He likes London as Amfortas far more than I do--I consider him a weakness in most of those celebrated Kna Parsifals, and he also likes the Solti and the Gui (with Callas) better than I do.

But I am aligned with him on the Kubelik taking the top honors. Although interestingly, in the individual write-ups, he says that Karajan is his top choice over Kubelik at one point. I suspect these surveys may be collections of individual reviews that were written over time that he collects together, which leads to some of these internal inconsistencies. He also expresses fondness for the Barenboim in the Karajan review, but doesn't include a review for the Barenboim in this survey.

Interesting that he prefers the 1964 Kna as his favorite of the Kna recordings, which is the way I've been leaning lately too. I do miss the stereo sound of the 1962 Kna, but I like Vickers and Stewart over Thomas and London by a pretty wide margin.

I also appreciate him shining a light on the Armin Jordan and Kegel recordings that deserve much more attention than they generally get. Particularly the Jordan which is one of my top 5 favorite recordings of the work, and especially highlighting the superb Gurnemanz performance by Robert Lloyd, who is in my book only second to Kurt Moll in the role.


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## Woodduck

rw181383 said:


> Another survey on MusicWeb, this time it's Parsifal!
> 
> http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Jan/Wagner_Parsifal_survey.pdf


Who the is Ralph Moore? He makes a lot of excuses for mediocrity in any number of these recordings, but his glossing over the Kegel travesty is the last straw. Many fine critics have written eloquently and insightfully about this uniquely sublime opera and its recordings; I remember with particular fondness Conrad L. Osborne and David Hamilton in High Fidelity magazine, discussing the '51 and '62 Knappertsbusch sets and the just-released Solti when I was a youth immersed in Wagner's world. I owe those thoughtful men a great deal.


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## 89Koechel

->howlingfantods - (Gurnemanz) - Normally, I'd agree with you, and Moll's singing is wonderful. He's matched, though, by Ludwig Hoffman, in that 1928 series of excerpts from Act III w/Muck … and, if anything, Hoffman is even MORE-eloquent!


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## SixFootScowl

Woodduck said:


> *Who is Ralph Moore*?


I see that name all the time on Amazon Reviews of classical CDs. Here is his Amazon profile showing he has 3329 reviews. Perhaps the same guy?


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## Woodduck

Fritz Kobus said:


> I see that name all the time on Amazon Reviews of classical CDs. Here is his Amazon profile showing he has 3329 reviews. Perhaps the same guy?


I've seen him on Amazon too. He's an "Amazon reviewer." That makes for quite a resume, doesn't it?


----------



## howlingfantods

Woodduck said:


> Who is Ralph Moore? He makes a lot of excuses for mediocrity in any number of these recordings, but his glossing over the Kegel travesty is the last straw. Many fine critics have written eloquently and insightfully about this uniquely sublime opera and its recordings; I remember with particular fondness Conrad L. Osborne and David Hamilton in High Fidelity magazine, discussing the '51 and '62 Knappertsbusch sets and the just-released Solti when I was a youth immersed in Wagner's world. I owe those thoughtful men a great deal.


If you think this is bad you should check out your buddy Conrad's latest book, an 800 page rant that amount to "singers used to be better back in the old days."


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## Woodduck

howlingfantods said:


> If you think this is bad, you should check out your buddy Conrad's latest book, an 800 page rant that amount to "singers used to be better back in the old days."


Surely he offers some support for that thesis? He certainly did back in the sixties. I'd be sad to hear that his understanding of singing has shrunk in his old age. He contributed, more than most opera critics, to my own understanding, which, speaking as a former singer and all-round musician, I consider quite sound.

If this is the "800-page rant" you're referring to,

http://conradlosborne.com/opera-as-opera/

your description seems at variance with that of a number of people rather intimately engaged with the subject matter.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Woodduck said:


> I've seen him on Amazon too. He's an "*Amazon reviewer*." That makes for quite a resume, doesn't it?


I suspect he gets that title merely by sheer number of reviews?

Only one I have seen that beats Ralph for number of reviews is Santa Fe Listener with something like 5000 reviews. Someone once challenged him noting the amount of time it would have taken to write 5000 "thoughful" reviews which would require multiple listens to a work with pauses and going back over parts and comparisons between recordings, etc.


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## WildThing

Woodduck said:


> Surely he offers some support for that thesis? He certainly did back in the sixties. I'd be sad to hear that his understanding of singing has shrunk in his old age. He contributed, more than most opera critics, to my own understanding, which, speaking as a former singer and all-round musician, I consider quite sound.
> 
> If this is the "800-page rant" you're referring to,
> 
> http://conradlosborne.com/opera-as-opera/
> 
> your description seems at variance with that of a number of people rather intimately engaged with the subject matter.


I was going to say, all the reviews I've seen of it have been quite positive. Here's a page with a radio interview with the author:

http://radio.wosu.org/post/book-review-opera-opera-conrad-l-osborne#stream/0

Sounds intriguing! Definitely something I'd like to read.


----------



## Woodduck

WildThing said:


> I was going to say, all the reviews I've seen of it have been quite positive. Here's a page with a radio interview with the author:
> 
> http://radio.wosu.org/post/book-review-opera-opera-conrad-l-osborne#stream/0
> 
> Sounds intriguing! Definitely something I'd like to read.


Thanks. I've never heard Osborne speak. Actually I wasn't even aware that he's still living - 84, according to sources.


----------



## howlingfantods

WildThing said:


> I was going to say, all the reviews I've seen of it have been quite positive. Here's a page with a radio interview with the author:
> 
> http://radio.wosu.org/post/book-review-opera-opera-conrad-l-osborne#stream/0
> 
> Sounds intriguing! Definitely something I'd like to read.


It's a hellacious slog from a cranky crank. I'll gladly sell you my copy.


----------



## Granate

Fritz Kobus said:


> I suspect he gets that title merely by sheer number of reviews?
> 
> Only one I have seen that beats Ralph for number of reviews is Santa Fe Listener with something like 5000 reviews. Someone once challenged him noting the amount of time it would have taken to write 5000 "thoughful" reviews which would require multiple listens to a work with pauses and going back over parts and comparisons between recordings, etc.


And this is one of the reasons I often doubt about showing my hobby to other people. How useful are my insights and comparisons to CM lovers, potential buyers, even myself?

I had decided to propose my final masters project as a blogging and social media account for classical music reccomendations in the market, to write and speak where people, potential buyers are, in the fashion of booktubers or musictubers. But my current question is how do I sell myself and how readers should consider my comments, because this insight and experience is something I don't know if I'll ever get.

Does the "disclaimer" make readers go away or does it prevent them from having too much faith in a subjective individual or comparative review?


----------



## SixFootScowl

Granate said:


> And this is one of the reasons I often doubt about showing my hobby to other people. How useful are my insights and comparisons to CM lovers, potential buyers, even myself?
> 
> I had decided to propose my final masters project as a blogging and social media account for classical music reccomendations in the market, to write and speak where people, potential buyers are, in the fashion of booktubers or musictubers. But my current question is how do I sell myself and how readers should consider my comments, because this insight and experience is something I don't know if I'll ever get.
> 
> Does the "disclaimer" make readers go away or does it prevent them from having too much faith in a subjective individual or comparative review?


Good questions that I can't answer. Might be a good topic for you to start a thread.

As for Amazon reviews, I do tend to read/skim Ralph Moore and Santa Fe Listener's (SFL) reviews. It can be fun at times, if you are bored silly anyway, to go through comments on SFL reviews because he tends to draw some heat. I find greater confidence in overall star ratings when there are a lot of reviews.


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## wkasimer

Fritz Kobus said:


> I find greater confidence in overall star ratings when there are a lot of reviews.


I find it most helpful to read the 2-, 3-, and 4-star reviews. They tend to be more balanced. The five star reviews are often suspect raves that read as though they were written by rabid fans. The one star reviews are usually irrelevant, commenting on something having nothing to do with the recording at all.

Santa Fe Listener, BTW, also writes for Fanfare, under his real name.


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## SixFootScowl

wkasimer said:


> I find it most helpful to read the 2-, 3-, and 4-star reviews. They tend to be more balanced. The five star reviews are often suspect raves that read as though they were written by rabid fans. The one star reviews are usually irrelevant, commenting on something having nothing to do with the recording at all.
> 
> Santa Fe Listener, BTW, also writes for Fanfare, *under his real name*.


What might that be?


----------



## howlingfantods

Granate said:


> How useful are my insights and comparisons to CM lovers, potential buyers, even myself?


I suppose we're talking about "expertise" and criticism here.

Ralph Moore writes for Musicweb International. I honestly don't know how established or respected Musicweb International is, but I do run across it when looking for reviews of things online often enough, and the writers on there don't strike me as being particularly more or less astute than those at Gramophone.

From what I've seen from Moore with the Meistersinger and Parsifal rundowns, his tastes overlap mine by a pretty significant degree. He likes largely the singers (although with significant exceptions) he likes some of the same obscure recordings I do, and picks a lot of the same standout recordings that I'm most fond of. So to me, he seems like a very useful critic--if I'm pondering a purchase, I might be more inclined to give him greater weight than a critic I find I'm often at odds with.

To me, there's not much else to a critic than that factor of shared or divergent tastes, that serves as a predictor for whether I'd enjoy a particular purchase. It doesn't matter to me whether a critic started out with decades of teaching experience at a conservatory or started out as a doctor or bricklayer who happens to be an enthusiastic fan who likes writing about music. Either way, all that's really pertinent to me is how much their tastes overlap mine.

Because if I love a recording and some expert with all the teaching and performing experience in the world told me that the recording was bad according to their criteria, what am I going to do? Change my own authentic and sincere experience of the recording because someone with a different resume than mine told it's bad? That strikes me as absurd. So to me, expertise is basically irrelevant for arts criticism.


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## wkasimer

Fritz Kobus said:


> What might that be?


Huntley Dent.....


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## Granate

howlingfantods said:


> I suppose we're talking about "expertise" and criticism here... (complete comment)


I still remember when I made a clumsy comment about my favourite "baritones" (who tended to be basses) in another thread. You replied denying everything and I felt attacked. I made another childish reply and I put you in the ignore list. In that moment I didn't want to admit that I had made many mistakes with that comment.

Maybe it's time I take you out of there.  I'm sorry.



Fritz Kobus said:


> As for Amazon reviews, I do tend to read/skim Ralph Moore and Santa Fe Listener's (SFL) reviews. It can be fun at times, if you are bored silly anyway, to go through comments on SFL reviews because he tends to draw some heat. I find greater confidence in overall star ratings when there are a lot of reviews.


I like to have fun with the former president of the Australian Knappertsbusch Association.


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## howlingfantods

Granate said:


> I still remember when I made a clumsy comment about my favourite "baritones" (who tended to be basses) in another thread. You replied denying everything and I felt attacked. I made another childish reply and I put you in the ignore list. In that moment I didn't want to admit that I had made many mistakes with that comment.
> 
> Maybe it's time I take you out of there.  I'm sorry.


Apologies you felt attacked in that thread--I was really just clarifying. I always try to be diplomatic but occasionally fall short of intentions there.


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## Woodduck

I value critics not so much for their opinions as for their insight into what they're discussing. I assume that no one can tell me what I will like (and certainly not what I ought to like), but if it appears that a critic's observations about a performance arise from a base of real knowledge and experience, I'm more likely to pay attention. 

Knowledge and experience of opera is not acquired casually, and singing - which is opera's primary expressive vehicle (whatever contemporary producers may think) - is difficult to discuss in specific terms, as the vague or simply incorrect language of much opera reviewing shows. A critic who can find the words to evoke the sound of a voice - its timbre and the way its possessor uses it - who can say enough about how singing is done to show me how his evaluation of the singer is justified, and who can then add to the equation a real knowledge of the opera under discussion in order to illustrate how that singer meets or fails to meet the requirements of a specific role, is doing something not commonly encountered, and something that gives value to his expression of his tastes, which may or may not correspond with mine.

Music reviews are often little more than self-indulgence for the writer and entertainment for the reader. Naturally we all enjoy reading critics who reinforce our own tastes, or perhaps arguing with those who don't. I enjoy both, but I most enjoy a well-founded and well-expressed discussion that gives me something to think about.


----------



## JosefinaHW

Theo Adams died. I just saw the announcement on PrestoMusic's site.

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/articles/2447--obituary-theo-adam-1926-2019

"The great German bass Theo Adam, particularly renowned for his Strauss and Wagner roles, has died in Dresden aged 92.
Born in Dresden on 1st August 1926, Adam began singing as a boy chorister in the Dresdner Kreuzchor and trained with Rudolf Dietrich after serving in World War II; he made his professional debut in a small role in Weber's _Der Freischütz_ in 1949, and began a long association with the Bayreuth Festival (where his roles included Titurel, Pogner, the Dutchman and Wotan) in the early 1950s. By the early 1970s he was appearing regularly at Covent Garden and the Metropolitan Opera in roles such as Hans Sachs, Pizarro and Wozzeck; his extensive discography includes Kaspar in Carlos Kleiber's recording of _Der Freischütz_, Herr Morosus on Marek Janowski's _Die schweigsame Frau_, Baron Ochs on Karl Böhm's _Der Rosenkavalier_, and Wotan on the same conductor's 1967 Ring Cycle from Bayreuth as well as numerous oratorio recordings.
A full tribute will follow tomorrow."

I don't know this singer but my sympathies to all who admired him.


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## Rangstrom

Any thoughts on the '61 Krips Bayreuth Meistersingers? There are some decent leads and (although I haven't heard any of his Wagner) I have a fondness for Krips' genial conducting style.


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## wkasimer

Rangstrom said:


> Any thoughts on the '61 Krips Bayreuth Meistersingers? There are some decent leads and (although I haven't heard any of his Wagner) I have a fondness for Krips' genial conducting style.


I'd be wary of this one. I bought the Myto issue when it was new, and it appears to be a mixture of performances. The Sachs in the last part of Act 1 (and Act 2) is Neidlinger, I'm not sure who the Walther is, but it's not Windgassen...I'm guessing it's from the 1957 performance, and thus Geissler (and it wasn't Krips conducting). It seems to revert back to 1961 for Act 3, at least what I've heard of it.

Myto may have corrected the error, but I doubt it.


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## Rangstrom

wkasimer said:


> I'd be wary of this one. I bought the Myto issue when it was new, and it appears to be a mixture of performances. The Sachs in the last part of Act 1 (and Act 2) is Neidlinger, I'm not sure who the Walther is, but it's not Windgassen...I'm guessing it's from the 1957 performance, and thus Geissler (and it wasn't Krips conducting). It seems to revert back to 1961 for Act 3, at least what I've heard of it.
> 
> Myto may have corrected the error, but I doubt it.


Thank you, I'll pass on this one. It sounds like a bigger mess than EMI's first '37 Beecham Tristan release.


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## Music Snob

Greetings Friends-

Does anyone have any recommendations for a Franz Volker CD? I’ve been digging with his voice of Lohengrin but am having trouble finding the right CD.


----------



## wkasimer

Music Snob said:


> Greetings Friends-
> 
> Does anyone have any recommendations for a Franz Volker CD? I've been digging with his voice of Lohengrin but am having trouble finding the right CD.


There are two excellent discs in Preiser's "Lebendige Vergangenheit" series:

https://www.amazon.com/Lebendige-Vergangenheit-Franz-Völker/dp/B003UZ5WCI

https://www.amazon.com/Arias-2-Franz-Volker/dp/B0000023NF

Both are OOP, but used copies are available and cheap.


----------



## Music Snob

Thanks for the heads up- I appreciate it!


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

I learned to take Ralph Moore's reviews with a grain of salt when he stated that he had never understood the appeal of the Furtwangler Tristan und Isolde. That told me all I need to know about Mr. Moore. He also derides the 1951 Kna Parsifal (for me his most inspired version) and labels its admirers "obsessively unhinged." To go so far in belittling one of the recognized great Wagner recordings of all time speaks to Mr. Moore's apparent insecurities. I think he puts too much emphasis on sound quality, including cleanliness of voice timbre.


----------



## wkasimer

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I learned to take Ralph Moore's reviews with a grain of salt when he stated that he had never understood the appeal of the Furtwangler Tristan und Isolde. That told me all I need to know about Mr. Moore. He also derides the 1951 Kna Parsifal (for me his most inspired version) and labels its admirers "obsessively unhinged." To go so far in belittling one of the recognized great Wagner recordings of all time speaks to Mr. Moore's apparent insecurities.


Alternatively, it speaks to the fact that Mr. Moore's tastes differ from yours (and often mine). That's to be expected. I happen to love Furtwangler's complete Tristan, but I also recognize that some of his singers are less than ideal, that Flagstad sounds rather matronly compared to her live performances from fifteen years earlier, and that Furtwangler's direction was far more dramatic and inspired a few years earlier in an incomplete broadcast from Berlin. And while you and I may admire Kna's 1951 Parsifal, I know plenty of knowledgeable Wagnerians who think that it's excessively slow and dislike most of the singers. If Mr. Moore thinks that my opinion makes me "obsessively unhinged", I really don't care, because he doesn't determine how I listen and hear things.



> I think he puts too much emphasis on sound quality, including cleanliness of voice timbre.


And I'm sure that if asked, he'd say that you put too little emphasis on sonics and vocalism.

Really, you need to stop worrying about what other people think of recordings you like.


----------



## Woodduck

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I learned to take Ralph Moore's reviews with a grain of salt when he stated that he had never understood the appeal of the Furtwangler Tristan und Isolde. That told me all I need to know about Mr. Moore. He also derides the 1951 Kna Parsifal (for me his most inspired version) and labels its admirers "obsessively unhinged." To go so far in belittling one of the recognized great Wagner recordings of all time speaks to Mr. Moore's apparent insecurities. I think he puts too much emphasis on sound quality, including cleanliness of voice timbre.


Apparently Moore has changed his mind about the Furtwangler _Tristan._ The Pristine remastering provoked this review in 2015:

https://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Trist...show_all_btm?ie=UTF8&reviewerType=all_reviews

I don't know how a simple remastering of an obviously great performance could so alter someone's opinion of that performance, but it's good when someone sees the light. You may be right that Moore is too influenced by sonics.

I might as well confess that I'm not a great admirer of the 1951 Kna _Parsifal._ I find the tempos unnecessarily slow; Kna sustains the momentum and shape as well as anyone could at such tempos (far better than, say, Levine), but not as well as he did later at a more urgent pace. I also find the singing of Modl and Windgassen unbeautiful, despite their obvious artistry, and much prefer Dalis and Thomas in 1962, not to mention Vickers in 1964. I don't know what Ralph Moore had to say, but then he thinks highly of the superficial Boulez in this opera, and excuses the vocal mediocrity of Hoffmann and Dunjvcvcvc...(what's her name) in the Karajan recording.


----------



## howlingfantods

Music Snob said:


> Greetings Friends-
> 
> Does anyone have any recommendations for a Franz Volker CD? I've been digging with his voice of Lohengrin but am having trouble finding the right CD.


There's two outstanding releases preserving Volker's Lohengrin.

The first is a complete recording from 1943 conducted by Heger, with one of the great Elsas from Maria Muller and Margaret Klose's thrilling Ortrud in very respectable sound. This is really essential, one of my favorites.

https://www.amazon.com/Lohengrin-Richard-Wagner/dp/B0000023RA

Perhaps even more interesting are the extracts from 1936 Bayreuth, with significant portions of from Act 3 of a Furtwangler performance, again with Volker, Muller and Klose, and another set of extracts recorded in studio with Heinz Tietjen. Volker and Muller in even fresher voice at their absolute peaks, and of course, you get to hear what Furt's Lohengrin was like, even if it's not the full opera.

https://www.amazon.com/Lohengrin-Volker-Muller-Klose-RICHARD-WAGNER/dp/B0006ZXG8M/


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

wkasimer said:


> Alternatively, it speaks to the fact that Mr. Moore's tastes differ from yours (and often mine). That's to be expected. I happen to love Furtwangler's complete Tristan, but I also recognize that some of his singers are less than ideal, that Flagstad sounds rather matronly compared to her live performances from fifteen years earlier, and that Furtwangler's direction was far more dramatic and inspired a few years earlier in an incomplete broadcast from Berlin. And while you and I may admire Kna's 1951 Parsifal, I know plenty of knowledgeable Wagnerians who think that it's excessively slow and dislike most of the singers. If Mr. Moore thinks that my opinion makes me "obsessively unhinged", I really don't care, because he doesn't determine how I listen and hear things.
> 
> And I'm sure that if asked, he'd say that you put too little emphasis on sonics and vocalism.
> 
> Really, you need to stop worrying about what other people think of recordings you like.


Dude, all I said is I take his reviews with a grain of salt.


----------



## howlingfantods

Brahmsianhorn said:


> To go so far in belittling one of the recognized great Wagner recordings of all time speaks to Mr. Moore's apparent insecurities.


Hm, I dislike quite a few sacred cow Wagner recordings myself--the Solti Ring, the 1951 Kna Parsifal, the 1952 Karajan Tristan, the 1955 Keilberth Ring, the 1950 Kna Tristan, the 1951 Karajan Meistersinger, the 1963 Kempe Lohengrin. I don't believe that has anything to do with any personal insecurities, but has quite a lot to do with those recordings being liberally sprinkled with singers I don't like in general or in these specific roles (Varnay, Hopf, Wiener, Braun, Modl) or, in the Solti Ring or 1951 Kna Parsifal case, being conducted in a way that disagrees with me.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

howlingfantods said:


> Hm, I dislike quite a few sacred cow Wagner recordings myself--the Solti Ring, the 1951 Kna Parsifal, the 1952 Karajan Tristan, the 1955 Keilberth Ring, the 1950 Kna Tristan, the 1951 Karajan Meistersinger, the 1963 Kempe Lohengrin. I don't believe that has anything to do with any personal insecurities, but has quite a lot to do with those recordings being liberally sprinkled with singers I don't like in general or in these specific roles (Varnay, Hopf, Wiener, Braun, Modl) or, in the Solti Ring or 1951 Kna Parsifal case, being conducted in a way that disagrees with me.


I did not bring up Mr. Moore's apparent insecurities in response to his merely disliking the Kna '51 Parsifal. He opens his review by belittling those who do like it, using the words "obsessively unhinged." Why open his review like that? Why not just state his own case without attacking the "other side?" To me that implies insecurity in his own opinion.

By the way, I agree with you on quite a few of those - Solti and '55 Keilberth Rings and '51 Karajan Meistersinger.


----------



## howlingfantods

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I did not bring up Mr. Moore's apparent insecurities in response to his merely disliking the Kna '51 Parsifal. He opens his review by belittling those who do like it, using the words "obsessively unhinged." Why open his review like that? Why not just state his own case without attacking the "other side?" To me that implies insecurity in his own opinion.


I see. "Obsessively unhinged" seems a mite overly spicy but hardly a take that strikes me as one that leads to a conclusion that he is insecure in his opinion. If anything quite the opposite.


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## Brahmsianhorn

Woodduck said:


> Apparently Moore has changed his mind about the Furtwangler _Tristan._ The Pristine remastering provoked this review in 2015:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Trist...show_all_btm?ie=UTF8&reviewerType=all_reviews
> 
> I don't know how a simple remastering of an obviously great performance could so alter someone's opinion of that performance, but it's good when someone sees the light. You may be right that Moore is too influenced by sonics.
> 
> I might as well confess that I'm not a great admirer of the 1951 Kna _Parsifal._ I find the tempos unnecessarily slow; Kna sustains the momentum and shape as well as anyone could at such tempos (far better than, say, Levine), but not as well as he did later at a more urgent pace. I also find the singing of Modl and Windgassen unbeautiful, despite their obvious artistry, and much prefer Dalis and Thomas in 1962, not to mention Vickers in 1964. I don't know what Ralph Moore had to say, but then he thinks highly of the superficial Boulez in this opera, and excuses the vocal mediocrity of Hoffmann and Dunjvcvcvc...(what's her name) in the Karajan recording.


Reasonable minds can disagree on which Kna Parsifal is best. There will never be consensus. I thought Moore's diatribe against the '51 comes across as strangely reactionary.

His one substantive argument is that Ludwig Weber's supposedly wobbly voice is like fingernails on a chalkboard to Moore. I don't hear the same thing, but I also don't expect to hear Wagner as if it's performed by the Tallis Scholars. Again, reasonable minds can differ.

Regarding the Furt Tristan, a teenage novice could appreciate its greatness without the aid of the Pristine transfer, so I do not give Moore a pass there. I would have just as hard a time taking a Puccini "expert critic" seriously who cannot understand the appeal of the Callas/De Sabata Tosca. At that point your credentials are revoked.


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## Brahmsianhorn

howlingfantods said:


> I see. "Obsessively unhinged" seems a mite overly spicy but hardly a take that strikes me as one that leads to a conclusion that he is insecure in his opinion. If anything quite the opposite.


It is a cheap debate trick. Labeling people who merely disagree with him as "obsessively unhinged" is a classic example of an ad hominem attack. Undermine anyone who disagrees so you don't have to take their argument seriously. And yes, that usually points to insecurity.


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## WildThing

Brahmsianhorn said:


> By the way, I agree with you on quite a few of those '55 Keilberth Rings


Personally I think you're both crazy. That recording is phenomenal...


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## howlingfantods

Brahmsianhorn said:


> It is a cheap debate trick. Labeling people who merely disagree with him as "obsessively unhinged" is a classic example of an ad hominem attack. Undermine anyone who disagrees so you don't have to take their argument seriously. And yes, that usually points to insecurity.


Feels pretty specific though. I suspect he's encountered some arguments somewhere on these here interwebs that led him to that particular characterization. I've seen some archived arguments on the opera listserv that were hair-raisingly over the top.



WildThing said:


> Personally I think you're both crazy. That recording is phenomenal...


But would you say that if you weren't.... OBSESSIVELY UNHINGED???


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## Brahmsianhorn

WildThing said:


> Personally I think you're both crazy. That recording is phenomenal...


I was disappointed. Good sound and voices, but lacking in juice. Keilberth's square conducting IMO resulted in a wasted opportunity.


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## WildThing

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I was disappointed. Good sound and voices, but lacking in juice. Keilberth's square conducting IMO resulted in a wasted opportunity.


What conductors on record do you prefer for the Ring? Granted, he's no Furtwängler, but I think I still like him more than you do. He's direct, sensitive to the needs of the singers and think he does a good job of maintaining the flow of the action. Far better than Solti, at least.

I don't think there is any perfect Ring recording, but the positives of definitely far outweigh any negatives on this set for me.


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## Brahmsianhorn

WildThing said:


> What conductors on record do you prefer for the Ring? Granted, he's no Furtwängler, but I think I still like him more than you do. He's direct, sensitive to the needs of the singers and think he does a good job of maintaining the flow of the action. Far better than Solti, at least.
> 
> I don't think there is any perfect Ring recording, but the positives of definitely far outweigh any negatives on this set for me.


Furtwängler, Kna and Krauss, and even Böhm is more exciting.


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## wkasimer

howlingfantods said:


> hm, i dislike quite a few sacred cow wagner recordings myself--the solti ring, the 1951 kna parsifal, the 1952 karajan tristan, the 1955 keilberth ring, the 1950 kna tristan, the 1951 karajan meistersinger, the 1963 kempe lohengrin.


blasphemer!!!!!!!!!


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## wkasimer

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Dude, all I said is I take his reviews with a grain of salt.


Actually, you said that his opinion "speaks to Mr. Moore's apparent insecurities".


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## howlingfantods

WildThing said:


> What conductors on record do you prefer for the Ring? Granted, he's no Furtwängler, but I think I still like him more than you do. He's direct, sensitive to the needs of the singers and think he does a good job of maintaining the flow of the action. Far better than Solti, at least.
> 
> I don't think there is any perfect Ring recording, but the positives of definitely far outweigh any negatives on this set for me.


For me, it's all of Varnay's scooping. I find it unbearable. I can take her in smaller doses (although she's never my preferred performer) but Brunnhilde is a big role to be filled by a singer I find intolerable.


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## Woodduck

I think Varnay was born to sing Ortrud. I recall Verdi saying that he didn't want a beautiful voice for Lady Macbeth, and I can imagine Wagner thinking the same about Ortrud. Varnay's dark, cutting, often harsh tone is highly suitable, and somehow even the scooping adds an effect of evil insinuation. But as for her Brunnhilde, it isn't a voice that conjures up valkyrie maidens for me. In the _Ring_ I'd cast her as Fricka.

Unfortunately for me, I can't stand Martha Modl as Brunnhilde either. Her Kundry convinces me in the tortured moments but not the seductive ones, and her Isolde may be better than any dramatically and conveys a not unsuitable expressionistic angst, but in any role she wears out her welcome quickly with her odd, squeezy, chesty vocal production. The high notes sound like heavy lifting: she gets there, but - whew!

The ubiquity of these two sopranos at pre-Nilsson Bayreuth rules out a lot of recordings that would otherwise interest me.


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## wkasimer

howlingfantods said:


> For me, it's all of Varnay's scooping. I find it unbearable. I can take her in smaller doses (although she's never my preferred performer) but Brunnhilde is a big role to be filled by a singer I find intolerable.


I've learned to tolerate Varnay, because if you want to hear Hotter at his best, there's really no other way, except for Modl (who I prefer, but not by much).

My biggest gripe about a lot of the 1950's Bayreuth RING cycles is Paul Kuen's Mime. I love the first act of Siegfried, and hideous singing (if one can even use that term) is pretty dire.

I think that the only live RING recordings with Nilsson and Hotter are from Covent Garden, with Kempe and Konwitschny, and both are in rather poor sound.


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## Brahmsianhorn

wkasimer said:


> Actually, you said that his opinion "speaks to Mr. Moore's apparent insecurities".


Yes, and I've pretty well covered why I said that. Sorry it upsets you.


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## Granate

Woodduck said:


> I think Varnay was born to sing Ortrud. I recall Verdi saying that he didn't want a beautiful voice for Lady Macbeth, and I can imagine Wagner thinking the same about Ortrud. Varnay's dark, cutting, often harsh tone is highly suitable, and somehow even the scooping adds an effect of evil insinuation. But as for her Brunnhilde, it isn't a voice that conjures up valkyrie maidens for me. In the _Ring_ I'd cast her as Fricka.
> 
> Unfortunately for me, I can't stand Martha Modl as Brunnhilde either. Her Kundry convinces me in the tortured moments but not the seductive ones, and her Isolde may be better than any dramatically and conveys a not unsuitable expressionistic angst, but in any role she wears out her welcome quickly with her odd, squeezy, chesty vocal production. The high notes sound like heavy lifting: she gets there, but - whew!
> 
> The ubiquity of these two sopranos at pre-Nilsson Bayreuth rules out a lot of recordings that would otherwise interest me.


Taking the excerpts, I think I may like Mödl much more than Varnay for the German _Macbeth_. It will be a pleasure to compare those recordings in the future.

I've learnt to appreciate Varnay's iconic timbre only forgetting that she had to perform a character different from Astrid Varnay. I admire her recordings under Knappertsbusch: her 1955 Senta and 1957 Brünnhilde, but her Jochum 1953 Isolde, Szell 1954 Venus and her 1966 Boulez Kundry (her 1957 performance under Cluytens still unknown) are rapturous.


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## howlingfantods

wkasimer said:


> blasphemer!!!!!!!!!


I wonder how much it has to do with historically significant recordings--I notice a lot of the sacred cows I don't care for that much are the first widely available commercial recordings of that opera. The Karajan Meistersinger & Tristan, the Solti Ring, the 1951 Kna Parsifal, the Kempe Lohengrin.

I personally don't care about significance, just about what is on the recording myself, but I can certainly understand other listeners who have a fond spot in their hearts for these firsts. Or perhaps have imprinted on these recordings as their firsts.


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## Brahmsianhorn

howlingfantods said:


> I wonder how much it has to do with historically significant recordings--I notice a lot of the sacred cows I don't care for that much are the first widely available commercial recordings of that opera. The Karajan Meistersinger & Tristan, the Solti Ring, the 1951 Kna Parsifal, the Kempe Lohengrin.
> 
> I personally don't care about significance, just about what is on the recording myself, but I can certainly understand other listeners who have a fond spot in their hearts for these firsts.


You are insinuating that you care more about what is on the recording while others care more about the historical significance. You have no basis for that. It is just a way to explain away people's opinions that differ from your own.


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## howlingfantods

wkasimer said:


> I've learned to tolerate Varnay, because if you want to hear Hotter at his best, there's really no other way, except for Modl (who I prefer, but not by much).
> 
> My biggest gripe about a lot of the 1950's Bayreuth RING cycles is Paul Kuen's Mime. I love the first act of Siegfried, and hideous singing (if one can even use that term) is pretty dire.
> 
> I think that the only live RING recordings with Nilsson and Hotter are from Covent Garden, with Kempe and Konwitschny, and both are in rather poor sound.


It would be a pretty fun game to take someone with perfect pitch, ask them to transcribe the notes that Kuen is singing, and compare to the score. I bet there's not more than a quarter of the notes that is sung as written.


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## Bonetan

howlingfantods said:


> But would you say that if you weren't.... OBSESSIVELY UNHINGED???


I actually laughed out loud! :lol:


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## howlingfantods

Brahmsianhorn said:


> You are insinuating that you care more about what is on the recording while others care more about the historical significance. You have no basis for that. It is just a way to explain away people's opinions that differ from your own.


*shrug* I'm just speculating, to try to explain an oddity that so many critics and people online are convinced of the superiority of the first commercial recordings for Wagner operas. It's particularly odd since I don't believe people are so willing to fight to the death for the first major complete Verdi or Mozart recordings.


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## Itullian

I'm sure glad I'm just an ignorant layman.
I enjoy all the Bayreuth 50's recordings and treasure them all.
And I love Varnay too. 
Cheers :tiphat:


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## Woodduck

Granate said:


> Taking the excerpts, I think I may like Mödl much more than Varnay for the German _Macbeth_. It will be a pleasure to compare those recordings in the future.
> 
> I've learnt to appreciate Varnay's iconic timbre only forgetting that she had to perform a character different from Astrid Varnay. I admire her recordings under Knappertsbusch: her 1955 Senta and 1957 Brünnhilde, but her Jochum 1953 Isolde, Szell 1954 Venus and her 1966 Boulez Kundry (her 1957 performance under Cluytens still unknown) are rapturous.


Not since her debut as Sieglinde in 1941, when she still sounded like a soprano and didn't scoop much, have I heard a sound from Varnay's throat that struck me as rapturous. :lol:


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## Woodduck

howlingfantods said:


> *shrug* I'm just speculating, to try to explain an oddity that so many critics and people online are convinced of the superiority of the first commercial recordings for Wagner operas. It's particularly odd since I don't believe people are so willing to fight to the death for the first major complete Verdi or Mozart recordings.


People do have an attachment to the first recording they own of a work, especially if, as in the case of Wagner, no competition comes along for a while. The '51 _Parsifal_ had to wait over a decade for a competitor, and the '52 _Tristan_ (Furtwangler) for one (Solti) which didn't measure up despite a superstar soprano. The Solti _Ring_ was spectacular in more ways than one - impressive sonics and great singing - and remains competitive, whatever one's taste in Wagner conductors. And the Kempe _Lohengrin_ is weak in only one respect, Otto Wiener's herald. On the other hand, the old EMI _Tannhauser_ with Hans Hopf and Elisabeth Grummer doesn't get talked about much, maybe because it's the Dresden version.

In sum, I think there are more reasons than attachment to a "first" for these recordings being especially loved. In some cases, it's reasonable to hold, they haven't been surpassed.


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## Brahmsianhorn

howlingfantods said:


> *shrug* I'm just speculating, to try to explain an oddity that so many critics and people online are convinced of the superiority of the first commercial recordings for Wagner operas. It's particularly odd since I don't believe people are so willing to fight to the death for the first major complete Verdi or Mozart recordings.


Im pretty partial myself to the Toscanini Otello and Beecham Zauberflote. And my next favorite Zauberflote is Karajan 1950. Oh, and the 1953 Furtwängler Don Giovanni. And the 1955(?) Kleiber Le Nozze. But I'm not quite as big a fan of the 1930s Glyndebourne Mozart operas. Oh and any of the live Callas Verdi recordings from the 50s.


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## Granate

wkasimer said:


> I've learned to tolerate Varnay, because if you want to hear Hotter at his best, there's really no other way, except for Modl (who I prefer, but not by much).
> 
> My biggest gripe about a lot of the 1950's Bayreuth RING cycles is Paul Kuen's Mime. I love the first act of Siegfried, and hideous singing (if one can even use that term) is pretty dire.





howlingfantods said:


> It would be a pretty fun game to take someone with perfect pitch, ask them to transcribe the notes that Kuen is singing, and compare to the score. I bet there's not more than a quarter of the notes that is sung as written.


I'm not too clear whether I should like the 1958 Siegfried over 1957. I remember I liked the tonal Stolze way more than Kuën, and the Sound Quality on CD is astonishing in 1958.However, I think I would miss Varnay's energy, and Aldenhoff's and Neidlinger roles. I've never been so nitpicky with Mimes, unless we talk about the 21st century recordings. I'm way more demanding with Siegfried (Kollo Bayreuth 1976, Windgassen Bayreuth 1966...)


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## WildThing

howlingfantods said:


> For me, it's all of Varnay's scooping. I find it unbearable. I can take her in smaller doses (although she's never my preferred performer) but Brunnhilde is a big role to be filled by a singer I find intolerable.


Fair enough. For whatever reason I'm not nearly as bothered by it, and I find the immediacy and impact of her voice to be heroic and exciting, for me more than compensating for the shortcomings of technique. I think we would be lucky to have a Brunnhilde like her around today.

But even then, when you have Hotter, Neidlinger, Greindl, Brouwenstijn, Windgassen, Vinay, etc. at the top of their games in good sound, I think the 55 Ring is essential.


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## The Conte

WildThing said:


> Fair enough. For whatever reason I'm not nearly as bothered by it, and I find the immediacy and impact of her voice to be heroic and exciting, for me more than compensating for the shortcomings of technique. I think we would be lucky to have a Brunnhilde like her around today.
> 
> But even then, when you have Hotter, Neidlinger, Greindl, Brouwenstijn, Windgassen, Vinay, etc. at the top of their games in good sound, I think the 55 Ring is essential.


So do I, but only due to the second cast with Moedl. (However, you do then get Varnay as Sieglinde.)

N.


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## Taggart

Please keep personal arguments to personal messages and concentrate on the thread topic.

Some off topic messages have been removed for moderator discussion.


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## wkasimer

howlingfantods said:


> I wonder how much it has to do with historically significant recordings--I notice a lot of the sacred cows I don't care for that much are the first widely available commercial recordings of that opera. The Karajan Meistersinger & Tristan, the Solti Ring, the 1951 Kna Parsifal, the Kempe Lohengrin.


I assume that you meant the Furtwangler Tristan; the 1952 Karajan live recording didn't surface, if I recall correctly, until the 1970's.

While I don't really agree with your lack of fondness for most of these (except the Karajan 1951 Meistersinger, which I find pretty dreadful for any number of reasons), I do hear certain "sacred cow" opera recordings very differently from those those people who revere them. The worst culprits are three Zauberflote recordings - Beecham, Böhm, and Klemperer.



> I personally don't care about significance, just about what is on the recording myself, but I can certainly understand other listeners who have a fond spot in their hearts for these firsts. Or perhaps have imprinted on these recordings as their firsts.


I try to put nostalgia aside, but even so, there are recordings that I continue to love despite their age and with the full recognition that performance of the music has come a long way since. Best example for me is probably Casals' Bach. I certainly have recordings that are better played technically (after all, Casals was in his sixties when he recorded the suites) and even more interesting interpretively - but I probably play the Casals more often than any of them.


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## wkasimer

Granate said:


> I'm not too clear whether I should like the 1958 Siegfried over 1957.


That's easy for me - the combination of Aldenhoff and Kuen is absolute poison. I may regret the absence of Neidlinger's Alberich in Act 2, but it's not a big role in this opera, and Andersson is certain adequate while both Aldenhoff and Kuen are not.


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## Barbebleu

howlingfantods said:


> There's two outstanding releases preserving Volker's Lohengrin.
> 
> The first is a complete recording from 1943 conducted by Heger, with one of the great Elsas from Maria Muller and Margaret Klose's thrilling Ortrud in very respectable sound. This is really essential, one of my favorites.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Lohengrin-Richard-Wagner/dp/B0000023RA
> 
> Perhaps even more interesting are the extracts from 1936 Bayreuth, with significant portions of from Act 3 of a Furtwangler performance, again with Volker, Muller and Klose, and another set of extracts recorded in studio with Heinz Tietjen. Volker and Muller in even fresher voice at their absolute peaks, and of course, you get to hear what Furt's Lohengrin was like, even if it's not the full opera.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Lohengrin-Volker-Muller-Klose-RICHARD-WAGNER/dp/B0006ZXG8M/


I think the Volker/Heger Berlin Lohengrin is actually 1942, not '43.


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## howlingfantods

Barbebleu said:


> I think the Volker/Heger Berlin Lohengrin is actually 1942, not '43.


Thanks for the correction! Now that I double checked, the one Hollander extract is from 1943 and that's what I must've been looking at when I entered the details in my iTunes.



wkasimer said:


> While I don't really agree with your lack of fondness for most of these (except the Karajan 1951 Meistersinger, which I find pretty dreadful for any number of reasons), I do hear certain "sacred cow" opera recordings very differently from those those people who revere them. The worst culprits are three Zauberflote recordings - Beecham, Böhm, and Klemperer.


Ha, the only three Zauberflotes I have. Frankly, I've never understood why anyone cares at all about this opera. I thought I did my due diligence with those three recordings but perhaps not!


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## wkasimer

howlingfantods said:


> Ha, the only three Zauberflotes I have. Frankly, I've never understood why anyone cares at all about this opera. I thought I did my due diligence with those three recordings but perhaps not!


Those three are probably the most commonly recommended versions of the opera, but for me, they all have one outstanding cast member (two in the case of the Böhm), and the rest are miscast, mediocre, or worse. I understand the love for the Klemperer - it's a very different, much more serious take on Zauberflote. Beecham and Böhm I simply can't fathom, as I find both dull and without charm, which is deadly in Mozart.

The recordings that I've kept and listen to are Solti's (both, although I prefer the earlier one), Abbado (superbly cast), Sawallisch (ditto), Levine, Suitner, Haitink, Fricsay, and Ostman (this is very small scale both vocally and orchestrally, but that suits the opera well. Some of these contain a lot of dialogue, which may be a turn-off for some.


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## howlingfantods

wkasimer said:


> Those three are probably the most commonly recommended versions of the opera, but for me, they all have one outstanding cast member (two in the case of the Böhm), and the rest are miscast, mediocre, or worse. I understand the love for the Klemperer - it's a very different, much more serious take on Zauberflote. Beecham and Böhm I simply can't fathom, as I find both dull and without charm, which is deadly in Mozart.
> 
> The recordings that I've kept and listen to are Solti's (both, although I prefer the earlier one), Abbado (superbly cast), Sawallisch (ditto), Levine, Suitner, Haitink, Fricsay, and Ostman (this is very small scale both vocally and orchestrally, but that suits the opera well. Some of these contain a lot of dialogue, which may be a turn-off for some.


Thanks for the recommendations. I've been listening to quite a few Mozart recordings lately and I have been noticing how much I like Solti in this repertoire.


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## rw181383

I’m just happy that there have been so many comments (not including the personal arguments) after I posted the link to Ralph Moore’s Parsifal survey. I like to keep the Historical Wagner Recordings thread at or near the top in the Opera section:lol:


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## Music Snob

Comparing Pristine Audios 1935 Walküre vs Naxos I would say that the Naxos is the better purchase. I did a side-by-side study, briefly, between the two and I like the mono richness from the Naxos versus the ambient stereo of the Pristine.


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## Music Snob

Received the Kna 1957 Gotterdammerung yesterday- I'm super thankful. The Walhall has gone out of print, and I'm very happy to have found it on Amazon Spain. It was shipped from Japan. 56-58 complete.Next I will likely purchase the Franz Volker Lohengrin goodies I've had my eyes on. 

Who is everyone's favorite Lohengrin around here? I've yet to hear the Kempe but it is on it's way- hopefully it will be here this week.


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## howlingfantods

Music Snob said:


> Received the Kna 1957 Gotterdammerung yesterday- I'm super thankful. The Walhall has gone out of print, and I'm very happy to have found it on Amazon Spain. It was shipped from Japan. 56-58 complete.Next I will likely purchase the Franz Volker Lohengrin goodies I've had my eyes on.
> 
> Who is everyone's favorite Lohengrin around here? I've yet to hear the Kempe but it is on it's way- hopefully it will be here this week.


My favorite Lohengrin performer is Sandor Konya, on the von Matacic with Grummer, Gorr, Blanc and Crass. Live mono, but pretty good, full sounding mono. He's an ideal Lohengrin--wonderful golden voice, slightly Italianate, has just enough metal in the voice.

If I feel like listening to good stereo sound, I opt for the Kubelik with King/Janowitz/Jones/Stewart, but the Solti and Abbado are also very good.


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## Woodduck

You're on very solid ground with Kempe. Thomas, Grummer, Ludwig, Ficher-Dieskau (an unbeatable pair of villains, unless you go back to Klose and Uhde) and Frick are all first-rate, and Kempe conducts as well as anyone. Wiener is a nasal herald, but gosh, he's only the herald; you can see why King Henry never promoted him.


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## Barbebleu

Woodduck said:


> You're on very solid ground with Kempe. Thomas, Grummer, Ludwig, Ficher-Dieskau (an unbeatable pair of villains, unless you go back to Klose and Uhde) and Frick are all first-rate, and Kempe conducts as well as anyone. Wiener is a nasal herald, but gosh, he's only the herald; you can see why King Henry never promoted him.


The Kempe was my imprint Lohengrin and remains a favourite, Wiener notwithstanding. At least he sings in tune!!


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## Woodduck

Barbebleu said:


> The Kempe was my imprint Lohengrin and remains a favourite, Wiener notwithstanding. At least he sings in tune!!


Kempe's was my second _Lohengrin._ My first was the Bayreuth Keilberth with Windgassen, Steber, Varnay and Uhde, which I think was the first commercial release of the opera. Windgassen is the fly in an otherwise lovely ointment. Of all Wagner's tenor roles, Lohengrin needs vocal beauty, which for all his artistic virtues and stamina Windgassen never had.


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## Music Snob

I have the Solti version and it just doesn’t do it for me. It came with the Deutsche Grammaphone Wagner complete opera box set. I bought it almost 4 years ago. I hoping the Kemp’s version lights a spark- I haven’t liked Lohengrin anywhere near as much as Parsifal or Der Ring des Nibelungen.


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## DarkAngel

Two really great Lohengrins were active at Bayreuth during a glorious period of iconic performances with extremely strong casts, Thomas & Konya. You should ideally get the three available Cd sets, 61 Thomas and 59 Konya Bayreuth, and 62 EMI studio (thomas)


























> Lohengrin needs vocal beauty, which for all his artistic virtues and stamina Windgassen never had.


Such beauty is fully showcased in final scence when the swan knight reveals his identity and tells of his origin and the divine mission of the knights of monsalvat.......


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## Granate

Music Snob said:


> Who is everyone's favorite Lohengrin around here? I've yet to hear the Kempe but it is on it's way- hopefully it will be here this week.












*Wagner*
LOHENGRIN WWV 75 Live recording
Sándor Kónya
Leonie Rysanek
Astrid Varnay
Ernest Blanc
Kieth Engen
Eberhard Wächter

*Chor und Orchester der Bayreuther Festspiele
André Cluytens
Walhall (1958/2009 Remastered Edition)*

Please go for this one. Konya is in his best voice rather than the following year. I prefer Rysanek as Elsa and Varnay as Ortrud.

And I'm quite a lover of the two Windgassen Lohengrins in Bayreuth. Especially puzzled with the 1960 one.


----------



## The Conte

For studio recordings the Abbado and Kempe are both superb with great casts. I agree that the live von Matacic is also wonderful.

N.


----------



## wkasimer

The Conte said:


> For studio recordings the Abbado and Kempe are both superb with great casts. I agree that the live von Matacic is also wonderful.


Although I recognize the positive aspects of the Kempe recording, it somehow doesn't quite catch fire for me - it seems a bit studio-bound. And I'm not a huge fan of Fischer-Dieskau as Telramund, a role that has been much better sung by baritones like Uhde and Metternich. But Grümmer is heavenly and Ludwig superb.

Glad to see someone else likes the Sawallisch 1961 Bayreuth. It's exciting in ways that the Kempe isn't, and while the cast looks a bit suspect on paper, the performance is much more than the sum of its parts, and the choral work is unsurpassed. Even Varnay is on her best behavior, scooping less than usual. And Tom Krause is the best Herald on record.

Also glad to see Abbado mentioned. It's beautifully recorded, and Siegfried Jerusalem is one of the most musical Lohengrins on record. It's very, very telling during his entrance, sung without any orchestral accompaniment. Most tenors sound like they're fumbling around with both rhythm and key; with Jerusalem, both are rock solid. The rest of the cast is excellent, too.

BTW, the earliest complete recording with Jochum's for DGG in 1952 with Lorenz Fehenberger in the title role. If I've ever heard it, it didn't leave any impression. There's another recording from 1953 conducted by Schüchter, with Schock. Frick is in fantastic voice, much better than a decade later, and Metternich and Klose are a tremendous pair.


----------



## wkasimer

Granate said:


> I'm not too clear whether I should like the 1958 Siegfried over 1957.


I recently came across a copy of the 1957 in a used CD store, in an early Music & Arts release:









Aldenhoff and Kuen are predictably awful. I don't know how the Walhall issue sounds, but this M&A is OK, if not quite as good as 1958. The only downsides of 1958 are the absence of Neidlinger, Hotter sounding a bit indisposed compared to 1957, and Windgassen having his usual trouble coordinating with the pit during the Forging Scene (although not nearly as bad as in 1953).


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## Music Snob

Just pulled the trigger on these- I'm hoping that I will not be spending much more, this is an expensive habit. I do think that many of these are no longer going to be printed and will become collectors. Either way, I can justify it because it is incredibly good art.


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## Rangstrom

Enjoy the music, but please don't bet your retirement on CDs becoming a good investment.


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## Music Snob

Rangstrom said:


> Enjoy the music, but please don't bet your retirement on CDs becoming a good investment.


I hear ya- it's not like the demand for historical Wagner is high. Still I'm happy to keep these sources in the family. It's more important than, say, a monthly cable bill, IMO.

I think CD's themselves will one day fade away. Even some new cars don't have CD players. When I get these recordings I rip them pronto and then let the CD's occupy space on the shelf in the music library.

All of my old rock 'n' roll CDs mean next to nothing to me, I'm at the point when I will donate them just to get rid of them.

I remember as a child perusing through my parents record collection and CDs. They didn't own much if any classical, but I hope my children will find the same joy that I did in checking out the music collection.


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## DarkAngel

> Glad to see someone else likes the Sawallisch 1961 Bayreuth. It's exciting in ways that the Kempe isn't, and while the cast looks a bit suspect on paper, the performance is much more than the sum of its parts, and the choral work is unsurpassed. Even Varnay is on her best behavior, scooping less than usual. And Tom Krause is the best Herald on record.


Yes WK if forced to choose and only have one (would have to be near death) I would opt for the 61 Sawallisch Bayreuth, there are some small technical issues of live bayreuth performance such as opening of the aria "in fernem land" Jess is walking forward from back of stage and first couple lines are lower volume and then lock in, Astrid is delightfully evil and bewitching as the pagan Ortud, and the Sawallisch navigates tumultuos final scence with great clarity dramatic power.....I do miss Grummer though as Eva

I love Jess Thomas as the swan knight, he has a beautiful lyric soft voice and most importantly a poetic delivery that sets him apart, again during the beautiful story of his origin "in fernem land" he starts softly but with a touch of sadness in his voice as he must leave his wife Eva and his heart is broken as the story goes on he very naturally assumes the emotional nuance of a skilled vocal actor painting each scence, a great artist at work here.........


----------



## Barbebleu

Hello all you wonderful knowledgable Wagnerians. 

Having now acquired all the Eulenburg study scores for the major operas, with the exception of Holländer, my intention was to listen to certain operas from the Ring cycle and give my views, which I did with the Swarowsky Rheingold.

I have now had a change of mind and am now going to review all the operas in both studio and live versions. 

And this is where you all come in. 

I want suggestions for one live and one studio version of each opera with which I can do a score comparison.

No Holländer but I'm happy to do another studio Rheingold and pretend the Swarowsky never happened. 

As I will be following the score closely don't expect this to happen quickly although I do like a deadline!!

I look forward to your suggestions.


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## wkasimer

If you're doing a score comparison, I am going to assume that you need modern stereo sound when possible, and uncut performances

Tannhauser: 
Studio: Sinopoli for the Paris version, Konwitschny for the Dresden
Live: Bayreuth 1961 (Dresden; I don't believe that there's a live recording of Paris)

Lohengrin: 
Studio: Abbado
Live: Bayreuth 1961

Meistersinger:
Live: Bayreuth 1960 (monaural, but pretty good sound)
Studio: Kubelik

Tristan:
Live: Bayreuth 1966
Studio: Furtwangler (mono, but who cares?)

Rheingold:
Live: Not sure - probably Bayreuth 1955 again
Studio: Karajan

Walkure:
Live:Bayreuth 1955 (2nd cycle)
Studio: Leinsdorf or Karajan

Siegfried:
Live: Rome 1968 (Sawallisch)
Studio: Janowski (Eurodisc/BMG)

Gotterdammerung:
Live: Bayreuth 1955 (2nd cycle)
Studio: Solti

Parsifal:
Live: Bayreuth 1962
Studio: Kubelik


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## Granate

Tannhauser:
Live: Szell Metropolitan 54 I guess
Studio: Konwitschny SKB (Dresden)

Lohengrin:
Live: Keilberth Bayreuth 1953
Studio: Kubelík SOdBR

Meistersinger:
Live: Bayreuth 1960 too
Studio: Kempe BPO

Tristan:
Live: Bayreuth 1953 (why am I marbled by a "Bruckner" take on the score by Jochum?)
Studio: Barenboim BPO (Does it have the angst I first experienced or was it a dream?)

Rheingold:
Live: Thielemann Bayreuth 2008
Studio: Haitink SOdBR

Walkure:
Live: Böhm Bayreuth Philips
Studio: Janowski SKD (opposite styles of conducting)

Siegfried:
Live: Sawallisch BaySO
Studio: Zweden Hong Kong (this is my monthly spam of Gerald O'Finley <3)

Gotterdammerung:
Live: Furtwängler RAI
Studio: Karajan BPO

Parsifal:
Live: Boulez 1966 or 1967 (not because they're great, just because the pace puzzles me)
Studio: Karajan BPO (please tell me what do you think of the Transformation music)


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## Barbebleu

Thank you Wkasimer and Granate. I meant to say that I wanted Paris and Dresden for the Tannhäuser so thanks Wkasimer for the recommendations. And you're right about uncut performances. I'm not too bothered about exclusive live stereo but the sound quality needs to be good if it's mono and historic.

I haven't got the Zweden. My bad, so that won't be in die rechnung!!

Again thanks for prompt responses.


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## Barbebleu

I meant to post this.

The cd is to give you an idea of the dimensions.


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## silentio

I need help here. What is the best live Ring cycle with Nilsson as Brunnhilde (not Solti)? I have just recently been interested in Nilsson, after listening to a live Turandot where she was truly on fire. My impression is that she was consistent in term of vocal, but which Ring has her dramatic best?


----------



## DarkAngel

> I need help here. What is the best live Ring cycle with Nilsson as Brunnhilde (not Solti)? I have just recently been interested in Nilsson, after listening to a live Turandot where she was truly on fire. My impression is that she was consistent in term of vocal, but which Ring has her dramatic best?


Looking purely at Brunnhilde role with Nilsson (and not total cast strength) 61 MET broadcast was her debut radio Ring performance at MET so she is on her best to impress nationwide audience, Pristine XR has remastered sound to best available version......

Otherwise the Bohm Ring at Bayreuth 1966-67 has excellent live sound, and I know you said live but the studio Decca 61 Walkure captures her in finest voice.....


























There is also the late 1950s Kempe ROH Ring but the sound quality on these is not great despite strong cast, you might try one to see if sound is acceptable to you..........









During the 1960-62 Kempe Bayreuth Rings Varnay and Nilsson split the brunhilde role, so you can buy partial Ring with Nilsson on Myto releases, very good sound and voice

http://www.norpete.com/saleoperacds.html


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## Granate

silentio said:


> I need help here. What is the best live Ring cycle with Nilsson as Brunnhilde (not Solti)? I have just recently been interested in Nilsson, after listening to a live Turandot where she was truly on fire. My impression is that she was consistent in term of vocal, but which Ring has her dramatic best?


I reccomend Kempe Bayreuth 1960 on Operadepot (whenever they do another sale), but I like both vocally and dramatically the Bóhm Ring.


----------



## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> Looking purely at Brunnhilde role with Nilsson (and not total cast strength) 61 MET broadcast was her debut radio Ring performance at MET so she is on her best to impress nationwide audience, Pristine XR has remastered sound to best available version......
> 
> Otherwise the Bohm Ring at Bayreuth 1966-67 has excellent live sound, and I know you said live but *the studio Decca 61 Walkure captures her in finest voice.*....


Nilsson remarked that recordings generally failed to capture the physical impact of her voice, a judgment borne out particularly by recordings she made before the mid-1960s. It seems to have taken the engineers at Decca until then to figure out how to record her, as we can hear by comparing her_Tristan_ under Solti with her _Elektra_ and the later installments of the _Ring_ under the same conductor.

The problem (if we want to consider it that) was Culshaw's (?) idea that giving the voices less presence relative to the orchestra resulted in a more natural, opera-house perspective than did the then-prevalent, voice-prominent practice in recording opera. The fallacy in this should be obvious: your living room is not an opera house, and the way voices and the whole sound-image strike your ears coming out of loudspeakers - two-dimensionally, so to speak - is not the way they strike them in the three-dimensional space of an auditorium. Decca applied this philosophy enthusiastically across the repertoire for a time, though with variable effect, and though the Leinsdorf _Walkure_ (originally released on RCA) is better in this respect than the _Tristan_ it still places several large voices (Nilsson, London, Vickers) at a slight acoustic disadvantage. Nonetheless, It's a fine effort, possibly still the most consistent studio recording of the opera, with energetic conducting and no significant weaknesses or eccentric, controversial casting choices, representing well the standard of Wagner-singing at that time. When I acquired the Solti _Ring_ I omitted the _Walkure,_ preferring this version.


----------



## howlingfantods

silentio said:


> I need help here. What is the best live Ring cycle with Nilsson as Brunnhilde (not Solti)? I have just recently been interested in Nilsson, after listening to a live Turandot where she was truly on fire. My impression is that she was consistent in term of vocal, but which Ring has her dramatic best?


The Bohm. She was very much still at her vocal peak, and her interpretation deepened significantly over the years. To my ears, the Bohm is the reference Ring. Very good sound--not as good as studio sound but good, detailed semi-live tapes, strong overall cast, a gripping, swift and highly dramatic and intense reading from Bohm. You can pick it up cheap too, which is always a plus.


----------



## silentio

Thanks all. I sampled the Bohm Gotterdammerung on Youtube before and enjoyed it. The brisk tempo works well for the vassal scene. And I agree that Nilsson was really involved here.


----------



## amfortas

Woodduck said:


> The Leinsdorf _Walkure_ . . . places several large voices (Nilsson, London, Vickers) at a slight acoustic disadvantage . . .


An excellent post, though I must admit I see the disadvantage as a bit more than slight. I've often wished the voices weren't so recessed and reverberant on that otherwise stellar recording.


----------



## Admiral

Ah, a snow day! And at my age!

Catching up on my Wagner and realizing that I haven't opened half of the 1957 and 1958 Walhall Rings I bought maybe 2 years ago - but first as a warm-up I just played Act 3 of the Furtwangler 1952 Tristan. To paraphrase Frank Sinatra "nobody wants to go on after that" but I'm the DJ so I get to pick.

So it's the 1957 Walkure with the baritonal Vinay, Nilsson, Hotter, and Varnay. 

I'm an audiophile but these mono recordings really don't need any apologies. Looking forward to two days of below zero weather and maybe 16 hours of listening


----------



## DarkAngel

Admiral said:


> Ah, a snow day! And at my age!
> 
> Catching up on my Wagner and realizing that I haven't opened half of the 1957 and 1958 Walhall Rings I bought maybe 2 years ago - but first as a warm-up I just played Act 3 of the Furtwangler 1952 Tristan. To paraphrase Frank Sinatra "nobody wants to go on after that" but I'm the DJ so I get to pick.
> 
> So it's the 1957 Walkure with the baritonal Vinay, Nilsson, Hotter, and Varnay.
> 
> I'm an audiophile but these mono recordings really don't need any apologies. Looking forward to two days of below zero weather and maybe 16 hours of listening


Good thing you got the 57, 58 Walhall Rings couple years ago since now some of the individual operas are harder to find and more expensive......

Everyone here agrees the 57 Knap Ring has the best mono sound of the 1950s Bayreuth Ring broadcast performances, sound quality was definitely dialed in that year.....










Chicago (high temp -12) and nearby residents have our sympathy, with the "cold" comfort of knowing Juneau Alaska has heat wave high of 39 degrees today, crazy!


----------



## Admiral

And of course I picked Walkure because it's -9 degrees and the tenor sings "Wintersturme ... gives way to Spring..."


----------



## Admiral

DarkAngel said:


> Good thing you got the 57, 58 Walhall Rings couple years ago since now some of the individual operas are harder to find and more expensive......
> 
> Everyone here agrees the 57 Knap Ring has the best mono sound of the 1950s Bayreuth Ring broadcast performances, sound quality was definitely dialed in that year.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chicago (high temp -12) and nearby residents have out sympathy, with the "cold" comfort of knowing Juneau Alaska has heat wave high of 39 degrees today, crazy!


Indeed, I bought them on your recommendation many pages ago - glad that I did.

South Pole currently warmer than Ann Arbor

But I'm not complaining - I'll take my Wagner when I can get it. It's a cruel irony of my life that I probably won't be able to fully enjoy these piles of Opera Depot, Walhall, et al until I'm retired and my ears are shot.


----------



## wkasimer

Admiral said:


> South Pole currently warmer than Ann Arbor


That might have something to do with the fact that it's summer in the Southern Hemisphere.


----------



## silentio

Admiral said:


> Indeed, I bought them on your recommendation many pages ago - glad that I did.
> 
> South Pole currently warmer than Ann Arbor
> 
> But I'm not complaining - I'll take my Wagner when I can get it. It's a cruel irony of my life that I probably won't be able to fully enjoy these piles of Opera Depot, Walhall, et al until I'm retired and my ears are shot.


Ann Arbor here too!


----------



## lextune

Barbebleu said:


> View attachment 111954
> 
> 
> I meant to post this.
> 
> The cd is to give you an idea of the dimensions.


Interesting. Are these the full score? Or the vocal score with some kind of piano reduction?

Dover published full scores that were/are a great bargain, that I have found endlessly rewarding.

(I also grabbed a CD to show their size)

https://i.imgur.com/FqGDEBr.jpg

(inside)

https://i.imgur.com/5qIpwHz.jpg


----------



## Barbebleu

lextune said:


> Interesting. Are these the full score? Or the vocal score with some kind of piano reduction?
> 
> Dover published full scores that were/are a great bargain, that I have found endlessly rewarding.
> 
> (I also grabbed a CD to show their size)
> 
> https://i.imgur.com/FqGDEBr.jpg
> 
> (inside)
> 
> https://i.imgur.com/5qIpwHz.jpg


Full scores.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## rw181383

For those interested, Berkshire has quite a bit of Testament back in stock, including the 55 Keilberth Ring:

https://www.broinc.com/search.php?row=0&brocode=&stocknum=&text=&filter=all&submit=Search


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## DarkAngel

rw181383 said:


> For those interested, Berkshire has quite a bit of Testament back in stock, including the 55 Keilberth Ring:
> 
> https://www.broinc.com/search.php?row=0&brocode=&stocknum=&text=&filter=all&submit=Search










Amazon USA new $148 vs $98 Berkshire

Also they have good price on 51 Knap Gotterdammerung and the 2nd Ring operas 1955 with Modl 







Amazon USA new $60 vs $36 Berkshire

​


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## gardibolt

Those are super prices on the Testament sets. Buy buy buy.

While CDs are not a suitable investment vehicle, the skyrocketing of the once-quite-cheap Walhall offerings just emphasizes that when you see something you might like, you are probably well advised to buy buy buy because if you ever change your mind it will cost you a fortune.


----------



## Music Snob

gardibolt said:


> Those are super prices on the Testament sets. Buy buy buy.
> 
> While CDs are not a suitable investment vehicle, the skyrocketing of the once-quite-cheap Walhall offerings just emphasizes that when you see something you might like, you are probably well advised to buy buy buy because if you ever change your mind it will cost you a fortune.


That's what I'm saying! I'm 38 years old- Wagner's music isn't exactly burning up the charts. There may very well come a day when companies stop selling these Cd's- case in point Walhall Gotterdammerung 57 being out of print. I'm the kind of dude that cherishes these objects in my small music library and hope that it may spark a sense of wonder in my kids one day as my mother's lone Mozart Cd (Szell conducting 39 and 41) did for me. Wagner's music is just too good to ignore IMO and needs all the support it can get. (I see him as more of an artist than a composer- and that separates him from those that are great at musical gymnastics but lacking in excitement, IMO)


----------



## Guest

*Thank you!*

Re my Parsifal survey posted on MusicWeb International, thank you for your kind words about my surveys - and also for alerting me to the facts that 1) I had forgotten to include my review of the Barenboim studio recording - now remedied; 2) confusing the issue by naming both Karajan and Kubelik as my favourites, now clarified: Karajan as preferred studio version, Kubelik live.

You are right that I sometimes include reviews penned earlier; I try to remove inconsistencies but occasionally things slip through.

Best wishes and happy listening,

Ralph


----------



## Bonetan

Ralph Moore said:


> Re my Parsifal survey posted on MusicWeb International, thank you for your kind words about my surveys - and also for alerting me to the facts that 1) I had forgotten to include my review of the Barenboim studio recording - now remedied; 2) confusing the issue by naming both Karajan and Kubelik as my favourites, now clarified: Karajan as preferred studio version, Kubelik live.
> 
> You are right that I sometimes include reviews penned earlier; I try to remove inconsistencies but occasionally things slip through.
> 
> Best wishes and happy listening,
> 
> Ralph


I thoroughly enjoy your reviews Mr. Moore & always look forward to the new ones. I very much appreciate the time & effort put into them & would also like to thank the poster who brought them to our attention here in this thread. Keep 'em coming!! (especially the Wagner & Strauss!)


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## howlingfantods

Ralph Moore said:


> Re my Parsifal survey posted on MusicWeb International, thank you for your kind words about my surveys - and also for alerting me to the facts that 1) I had forgotten to include my review of the Barenboim studio recording - now remedied; 2) confusing the issue by naming both Karajan and Kubelik as my favourites, now clarified: Karajan as preferred studio version, Kubelik live.
> 
> You are right that I sometimes include reviews penned earlier; I try to remove inconsistencies but occasionally things slip through.
> 
> Best wishes and happy listening,
> 
> Ralph


Appreciate your work, Ralph. I've been reading your other surveys on musicweb too--quite interesting and informative. I already have pretty set opinions on singers and performers so I think the value I derive is mostly learning about recordings I hadn't heard about, especially with some of the operas I have fewer versions of, like Adriana Lecouvreur or La Rondine. Looking forward to any new surveys you put together.

Oh, and also, if you haven't heard them yet, I'd recommend checking out the live Karajan Don Carlo recordings on Operadepot--there are two excellent performances both with Freni, Cappuccilli and Ghiaurov, one with Domingo and Ludwig, the other with Carreras and Cossotta. Fantastic sound and performances, better sound than the Orfeo or the studio recording, although the prompters are a little overenthusiastic.


----------



## Guest

Again, thank you for the vote of confidence. Regarding Woodduck's sarcastic enquiry about "who I am" - well, nobody really; just someone who loves the music, has a lot of listening experience, some understanding of opera and singing, likes to write about it and has found an outlet for my thoughts and tastes on various websites and in some publications such as the Bruckner Journal and MWI. I don't post on Amazon any more since they stopped alerts and started posting reviews randomly. I simply enjoy the exchange of ideas and opinions with other music-lovers and it seems that quite a few of my readers - amongst which, it seems, I may include you - derive some pleasure and even benefit from my writing, A cautious endorsement, with reservations, for Kegel's "Parsifal" as something different, hardly seems to me to be a moral issue for which I should receive ad hominem abuse, but there we are...


----------



## Guest

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I learned to take Ralph Moore's reviews with a grain of salt when he stated that he had never understood the appeal of the Furtwangler Tristan und Isolde. That told me all I need to know about Mr. Moore. He also derides the 1951 Kna Parsifal (for me his most inspired version) and labels its admirers "obsessively unhinged." To go so far in belittling one of the recognized great Wagner recordings of all time speaks to Mr. Moore's apparent insecurities. I think he puts too much emphasis on sound quality, including cleanliness of voice timbre.


I did not label the_ admirers_ as "obsessively unhinged" - it was SOME of their ARGUMENTS - there is a difference and I was trying and clearly failing, to be jocular. And yes; I was responding to some specific previous exchanges. I love Kna's Parsifal but in other, better - both vocally and sonically - recordings.

As for the Furtwangler Tristan, it has long been acknowledged that it is wonderful but not perfect and yes, I have warmed to it over the years, with the help of Pristine's improved sonics revealing more of its obvious virtues. It's still not my favourite and I think I have given good reasons why for what is an opinion, not ex cathedra or Holy Writ.

"Insecurirties"? I don't think so - but that really is an ad hominem swerve, no? (BTW, I agree: the Callas Tosca is untouchable, in the way the Furtwangler Tristan isn't.)


----------



## rw181383

Another Wagner survey from Ralph Moore-http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Feb/Wagner_ring_survey.pdf


----------



## DarkAngel

rw181383 said:


> Another Wagner survey from Ralph Moore-http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Feb/Wagner_ring_survey.pdf


That is a great survey by RM including comments on singers, conductors/orchestra, AND sound quality....
Even has up to date info with latest Pristine XR 1961-62 MET Leinsdorf Ring

The opera gods value your dedicated passion, hope to hear more future RM posts at this forum


----------



## Guest

DarkAngel said:


> That is a great survey by RM including comments on singers, conductors/orchestra, AND sound quality....
> Even has up to date info with latest Pristine XR 1961-62 MET Leinsdorf Ring
> 
> The opera gods value your dedicated passion, hope to hear more future RM posts at this forum


Thank you for your appreciative comment. It acts a pleasant, counteractive observation to aspersions others have made about my harmless hobby.


----------



## Granate

Welcome to Talk Classical, Mr Moore. I'm very much acquainted with your extensive individual reviews that I would not be able to achieve in a long time since I never pay so much attention. Especially in the Karajan Ring review in the PDF, it was too obvious that it was a compilation of individual opera reviews. Some editing would be nice to clean up the text and make it friendlier to the reader.

It really hurt me that you didn't even consider putting the Janowski Dresden Ring in the survey. Ok he's opposite to Böhm's skillful performance, but the voices and the playing are one of a kind even by 60s and 70s standards.

Also, ODepot has proven Birgit Nilsson had already sung the three Brünnhildes before the Leinsdorf Met ring. The Bayreuth 1960 premiere featured her in Die Walküre. It is a Ring I reccomend to listen to although I'm not too excited about the sound of it. Best ever Siegfried for Hopf IMO.


----------



## Music Snob

Just got done listening to the Elmendorff 1930 Tannhauser. I’ve had it for awhile and it was finally nice to hear it the whole way through. Recorded within weeks of Siegfried Wagner’s death in 1930. I got it for $5.99 at a record store awhile ago. What are everyone’s recommendations for other historical Tannhauser’s?


----------



## DarkAngel

Music Snob said:


> Just got done listening to the Elmendorff 1930 Tannhauser. I've had it for awhile and it was finally nice to hear it the whole way through. Recorded within weeks of Siegfried Wagner's death in 1930. I got it for $5.99 at a record store awhile ago. What are everyone's recommendations for other historical Tannhauser's?


We mentioned this one many times here, 41 MET Leinsdorf radio broadcast featuring Flagstad just before returning to Norway during war. This was also chosen by Sony for deluxe Wagner MET boxset but Pristine XR has far better sound.....

https://www.pristineclassical.com/collections/composer-wagner/products/paco130

















After 1951 at new Bayreuth festival, 55 Cluytens and 61 Sawallisch

















Itullian will never be without Sawallish & his dream diva Vicky DLA


----------



## Woodduck

Ralph Moore said:


> Thank you for your appreciative comment. It acts a pleasant, counteractive observation to Woodduck's gratuitously aggressive attitude to my harmless hobby.


Now that you are here, Mr. Moore, I would hope that if you object to anything I say you will speak _to_ me rather than _about_ me. I certainly will not talk about _you_ as if you are not present.

I'm sorry if you found my response to your _Parsifal_ survey immoderate. The best excuse I can offer is that it was an honest, spontaneous, and visceral, but not ill-informed, reaction. In particular, I'll mention only that since I consider Kegel's _Parsifal_ a bad misrepresentation of the opera - actually absurd in places - I found your remarks on it genuinely shocking. To suggest that that eccentric recording might "perhaps" (!) not be a first choice, and that there is some virtue in Kegel being "prepared" to eschew a "spiritual" approach, "unhampered" by "a quasi-religious reverence"...? What is anyone who understands and, yes, reveres, this profound work of art to make of such statements? I realize that you're not the first to suggest that _Parsifal_'s solemn majesty, mystery, and sense of time suspended are somehow "pseudo" or "quasi," or at least not essential, and can safely be ignored or undercut in pursuit of "drama." This was Boulez's whole rationale. But of course it is perfectly possible to express all these aspects of the work in a single performance, and I would go so far as to say that a performance which doesn't set out to achieve this is a misrepresentation.

The mere fact that Kegel's traversal of the score clocks in at a full half hour less than Herrmann Levi's under Wagner's direction (and Levi's tempi appear very close to Kna's in 1962) should set off alarm bells, and Kegel's jaunty holiday-parade tempo for the sublime transformation music of Act 1 fully justifies our alarm.

I've been reading some of your reviews and have enjoyed many of them. I certainly do not have an aggressive attitude toward your hobby; I think it's a very good hobby, one I engage in myself from time to time. I look forward to reading your thoughts - arguing with them too. And of course you're very welcome to argue with mine.


----------



## Barbebleu

Re the Moore/Woodduck collision.

It's nice to have confirmation of the old adage that "two venerable Wagnerians can have a non-acrimonious dispute but only if one of them is dead!!"


----------



## howlingfantods

Woodduck said:


> Now that you are here, Mr. Moore, I would hope that if you object to anything I say you will speak _to_ me rather than _about_ me. I certainly will not talk about _you_ as if you are not present.
> 
> I'm sorry if you found my response to your _Parsifal_ survey immoderate. The best excuse I can offer is that it was an honest, spontaneous, and visceral, but not ill-informed, reaction. In particular, I'll mention only that since I consider Kegel's _Parsifal_ a bad misrepresentation of the opera - actually absurd in places - I found your remarks on it genuinely shocking. To suggest that that eccentric recording might "perhaps" (!) not be a first choice, and that there is some virtue in Kegel being "prepared" to eschew a "spiritual" approach, "unhampered" by "a quasi-religious reverence"...? What is anyone who understands and, yes, reveres, this profound work of art to make of such statements? I realize that you're not the first to suggest that _Parsifal_'s solemn majesty, mystery, and sense of time suspended are somehow "pseudo" or "quasi," or at least not essential, and can safely be ignored or undercut in pursuit of "drama." This was Boulez's whole rationale. But of course it is perfectly possible to express all these aspects of the work in a single performance, and I would go so far as to say that a performance which doesn't set out to achieve this is a misrepresentation.
> 
> The mere fact that Kegel's traversal of the score clocks in at a full half hour less than Herrmann Levi's under Wagner's direction (and Levi's tempi appear very close to Kna's in 1962) should set off alarm bells, and Kegel's jaunty holiday-parade tempo for the sublime transformation music of Act 1 fully justifies our alarm.
> 
> I've been reading some of your reviews and have enjoyed many of them. I certainly do not have an aggressive attitude toward your hobby; I think it's a very good hobby, one I engage in myself from time to time. I look forward to reading your thoughts - arguing with them too. And of course you're very welcome to argue with mine.


Well, this certainly makes me, the guy who recommended you listen to the Kegel, feel really good. I thought I simply suggested trying out an interesting an offbeat experience that you ended up not caring for, I had not realized until now that in your eyes, I had committed some kind of thought-crime against Wagner :lol:


----------



## Woodduck

howlingfantods said:


> Well, this certainly makes me, the guy who recommended you listen to the Kegel, feel really good. I thought I simply suggested trying out an interesting an offbeat experience that you ended up not caring for, I had not realized until now that in your eyes, I had committed some kind of thought-crime against Wagner :lol:


Well, now you know. I hope you're stocked up on hair shirts.


----------



## Granate

DarkAngel said:


> After 1951 at new Bayreuth festival, 55 Cluytens and 61 Sawallisch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Itullian will never be without Sawallish & his dream diva Vicky DLA




















In my opinion, the most star-studded recordings of Tannhäuser are the two Sawallisch broadcast recordings in 1961 and the Gerdes DG dreamy assemble. I think that only the Bayreuth ones worked out with the singing. I'm a lover of the Barenboim one but they're not historical since they are very much alive, some of them still singing.


----------



## DarkAngel

*N I L L S O N *

fan love overdrive, look at this stunning new coffee table book 14 x 11 size 712 pages with full color/BW plate spreads, that price $61 is great even for causal fans for this level quality............


----------



## rw181383

Is anyone familiar with this recording?

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8549702--wagner-gotterdammerung


----------



## amfortas

rw181383 said:


> Is anyone familiar with this recording?
> 
> https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8549702--wagner-gotterdammerung


From the Presto description: "The concerts in January 1956 were recorded by Norwegian Radio; on becoming aware of them, Decca producer John Culshaw fully appreciated their significance and arranged for an additional recording session to cover almost all the sections of the score that had been omitted in the live performances. "

Well . . . not exactly. In his book _Ring Resounding_, Culshaw describes the recording as having "considerable failings," including a cast which "left very much to be desired" and a conductor "fathoms out of his depth." He makes it clear Decca only acquired and released the performance as a gesture toward Kirsten Flagstad, whom they were trying to enlist to sing Brünnhilde in their own planned recording of _Götterdämmerung_.


----------



## Woodduck

rw181383 said:


> Is anyone familiar with this recording?
> 
> https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8549702--wagner-gotterdammerung


I was aware of that recording as far back as the 1960s and was always curious about it, but have never heard it. Except for some effortful high notes Flagstad was worth hearing even in her 60s, and Svanholm was still in pretty good shape in 1956. I don't know the other singers except for Ingrid Bjoner. I'd be interested in your impressions should you decide to buy it.


----------



## wkasimer

rw181383 said:


> Is anyone familiar with this recording?
> 
> https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8549702--wagner-gotterdammerung


This is available on Spotify, but this recording has been issued before. A Walhall release was transferred about a half-step sharp, but a better transfer was issued by Naxos Historical:









The singing isn't bad, actually. Most of the voices are fairly healthy, even if Flagstad and Svanholm are both past their primes. The problem with the performance is that it's woefully undercharacterized, both from the singers and from the conductor. It reminds me a bit of the Swarowsky recording, where everyone sounds as though they first looked at the music an hour or two before the recording. The sonics are only fair; the orchestra is pretty far back in the mix.

So - at the Presto price (or better yet, if you have Spotify), it's worth hearing - once. But if you don't, you're really not missing very much. That said, as far as the singing goes, I've heard much, much worse over the past 50 years.


----------



## Barbebleu

Also on Amazon Unlimited if you have it. From what I've heard, I agree with Culshaw in that, other than Flagstad and Svanholm, the rest of the cast are adequate at best. Incidentally her sister, Karen Marie, is one of the Norns!


----------



## Andrew Kenneth

Barbebleu said:


> Incidentally her sister, Karen Marie, is one of the Norns!


Karen Marie can also be heard as Ortlinde in the Scala Ring.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

Ralph Moore said:


> I did not label the_ admirers_ as "obsessively unhinged" - it was SOME of their ARGUMENTS - there is a difference and I was trying and clearly failing, to be jocular. And yes; I was responding to some specific previous exchanges. I love Kna's Parsifal but in other, better - both vocally and sonically - recordings.
> 
> As for the Furtwangler Tristan, it has long been acknowledged that it is wonderful but not perfect and yes, I have warmed to it over the years, with the help of Pristine's improved sonics revealing more of its obvious virtues. It's still not my favourite and I think I have given good reasons why for what is an opinion, not ex cathedra or Holy Writ.
> 
> "Insecurirties"? I don't think so - but that really is an ad hominem swerve, no? (BTW, I agree: the Callas Tosca is untouchable, in the way the Furtwangler Tristan isn't.)


There is a dedication to Kna's '51 Parsifal that is not quite as evident in his later recordings, and I am not alone in that opinion. I do not know who you talked to previously about the recording, but reading your review it seemed like you were taking an unnecessary swipe at anyone who shares my opinion.

Similarly, the overall impact of the Furtwangler Tristan sweeps away other considerations.

What I gather is that you are a fussier reviewer than I, perhaps more concerned with perfection, so that things like coughing, poorer recording quality, a weaker quality voice here or there matter more to you, whereas I am too entranced by the overall power of the music-making to care about such things. To each their own.

Cheers.


----------



## wkasimer

Brahmsianhorn said:


> What I gather is that you are a fussier reviewer than I, perhaps more concerned with perfection, so that things like coughing, poorer recording quality, a weaker quality voice here or there matter more to you,


Or perhaps he doesn't worship at the same Furtwangler shrine.


----------



## DavidA

wkasimer said:


> This is available on Spotify, but this recording has been issued before. A Walhall release was transferred about a half-step sharp, but a better transfer was issued by Naxos Historical:
> 
> View attachment 114132
> 
> 
> The singing isn't bad, actually. Most of the voices are fairly healthy, even if Flagstad and Svanholm are both past their primes. The problem with the performance is that it's woefully undercharacterized, both from the singers and from the conductor. It reminds me a bit of the Swarowsky recording, where everyone sounds as though they first looked at the music an hour or two before the recording. The sonics are only fair; the orchestra is pretty far back in the mix.
> 
> So - at the Presto price (or better yet, if you have Spotify), it's worth hearing - once. But if you don't, you're really not missing very much. That said, as far as the singing goes, I've heard much, much worse over the past 50 years.


This is the recording Flagstad insisted Decca release as a condition of her coming out of retirement to record for them. John Cuilshaw remarked the the conductor, 'though an excellent musician, was fathoms out of this depth' with the work. It was released only to satisfy Flagstad who wanted to promote Norwegian opera.


----------



## DavidA

Ralph Moore said:


> Re my Parsifal survey posted on MusicWeb International, thank you for your kind words about my surveys - and also for alerting me to the facts that 1) I had forgotten to include my review of the Barenboim studio recording - now remedied; 2) confusing the issue by naming both Karajan and Kubelik as my favourites, now clarified: Karajan as preferred studio version, *Kubelik live.*
> 
> You are right that I sometimes include reviews penned earlier; I try to remove inconsistencies but occasionally things slip through.
> 
> Best wishes and happy listening,
> 
> Ralph


Is Kubelik live? I thought it was a radio studio recording.


----------



## WildThing

DavidA said:


> Is Kubelik live? I thought it was a radio studio recording.


Yeah, I thought his Meistersinger was a live radio broadcast of a concert staging, but I thought the Parsifal was a studio recording. Arts Archive makes a note that it was recorded in May 1980 in the Munich Herkulessaal.


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## Brahmsianhorn

wkasimer said:


> Or perhaps he doesn't worship at the same Furtwangler shrine.


Actually Moore has a pretty high opinion of Furtwängler as a Wagner interpreter. A bit touchy, aren't we?


----------



## wkasimer

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Actually Moore has a pretty high opinion of Furtwängler as a Wagner interpreter.


So do I. I just don't think that he's infallible.



> A bit touchy, aren't we?


Not really. After all, I'm not the one who got his knickers in a twist over an Amazon review.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

wkasimer said:


> So do I. I just don't think that he's infallible.


I don't think he's infallible either. Furthermore, your insinuation is that I lack reason behind my opinions due to this supposed belief in Furtwangler's infallibility. That is a personal insult to me, and it shows your own insecurities. Are you going to tell me next that I am "obsessively unhinged" in my admiration for Furtwangler?



wkasimer said:


> Not really. After all, I'm not the one who got his knickers in a twist over an Amazon review.


I expressed an opinion of Moore's reviews, that I take them with a grain of salt and they don't fit entirely with my approach to music listening. Just an opinion, not "getting my knickers in a twist." Mr. Moore seems like a pleasant fellow, and his reviews are very informative.

I would think lobbing personal insults at another reviewer is what would qualify as "getting my knickers in a twist." Are you near a mirror?


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## howlingfantods

I thought the dispute pertained to Kna's 1951 Parsifal? A recording I share Moore's skepticism about--I wouldn't put it in my top few of Kna's Parsifal performances. I don't think Moore disregards recordings based on sound quality--he says he doesn't like the 1951 because he finds the singing a little mediocre, an opinion I share. I also think Kna is somewhat tentative and unsure of his approach in the 1951--his interpretation matured and deepened over time, and I think most of his later Parsifals much stronger than his earlier ones.

Moore does complain about poor sound quality more than I would. I do think my personal line for what constitutes acceptable sound is a little lower than most, but probably higher than some others. But in any case, a reviewer writing for a general audience of classical fans would be irresponsible not to include consideration of sound quality in their reviews, so I'm not sure why this would be a basis for criticizing his review.


----------



## wkasimer

howlingfantods said:


> I do think my personal line for what constitutes acceptable sound is a little lower than most, but probably higher than some others.


I spend a lot of time listening to singers from the acoustic era, so by comparison, that 1951 Parsifal is like manna from heaven sonically.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

howlingfantods said:


> I thought the dispute pertained to Kna's 1951 Parsifal? A recording I share Moore's skepticism about--I wouldn't put it in my top few of Kna's Parsifal performances. I don't think Moore disregards recordings based on sound quality--he says he doesn't like the 1951 because he finds the singing a little mediocre, an opinion I share. I also think Kna is somewhat tentative and unsure of his approach in the 1951--his interpretation matured and deepened over time, and I think most of his later Parsifals much stronger than his earlier ones.


Actually I think the 1951 Kna has quite good sound quality. Very present.

Also, hadn't he already conducted Parsifal dozens of times going back to the 1920s? We think of the 1951 as "early" Kna because it is the first recording, but the performance history had already long been built and settled.

I don't find Kna more tentative, in any case. I think he is more concentrated and dedicated, perhaps owing to the of the occasion of Bayreuth's reopening. I have listened to several of the later Kna's and still come to the conclusion that 1951 was the best.

Another, IMO ludicrous, argument put forth against the 1951 is that it is too slow. Honestly now, how much of a difference is 20 minutes in a 4-hour opera? Again, for me this is a result of the extra dedication to the proceedings, which I hear palpably in the recording as I compare it to others. Slower does not automatically mean more dedicated, but it does in this case. And dedication is essential in long works from the likes of Wagner, Mahler and Bruckner.

I believe it was a Penguin Guide review of Jochum's Bruckner addressing the issue of his tempos being too slow: "But Jochum is for those who above all want to love Bruckner." I feel the same way about Furtwangler and Knappertsbusch. I want to be entranced, and the conducting holds the biggest key.


----------



## Woodduck

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Another, IMO ludicrous, argument put forth against the 1951 is that it is too slow. Honestly now, how much of a difference is 20 minutes in a 4-hour opera? Again, for me this is a result of the extra dedication to the proceedings, which I hear palpably in the recording as I compare it to others. Slower does not automatically mean more dedicated, but it does in this case. And dedication is essential in long works from the likes of Wagner, Mahler and Bruckner.
> 
> I believe it was a Penguin Guide review of Jochum's Bruckner addressing the issue of his tempos being too slow: "But Jochum is for those who above all want to love Bruckner." I feel the same way about Furtwangler and Knappertsbusch. I want to be entranced, and the conducting holds the biggest key.


Why is it ludicrous to feel that a tempo is too slow? We all know that music has no "ideal" tempo, but often it isn't the speed a conductor chooses that concerns us but his ability to sustain simultaneously the music's inner life and its overall structure. I think Knappertsbusch, in his various performances of _Parsifal,_ probably succeeds as well in these objectives as anyone could at the tempos he chooses. He certainly succeeds better than, say, James Levine, whose _Parsifal_ was as slow as Kna's 1951 performance but relatively lifeless. That said, in comparing Kna's 1951 and 1962 performances I find details here and there where he achieves a slightly greater intensity in 1951, but I feel that the faster tempos of 1962 allow him to sustain the line and shape of the work more effectively and that the overall effect of cohesion more than makes up for any slight loss of momentary "dedication." You don't have to milk every moment to do justice to the meaning of a work, and trying to do so can be counterproductive (a lesson also to be learned from some of Leonard Bernstein's late work, including his _Tristan_).

20 minutes can make a great difference in a 4-hour opera, depending on where that 20 minutes occurs. Subtract 20 minutes from Kna's 1962 performance and you can end up with Herbert Kegel tripping the light fantastic on the way to the grail temple. Not much "dedication" there, unless it's to something like letting the audience out before the buses stop running.

My own problem with the 1951 Kna is not mainly with him but with the uningratiating vocal sounds produced by Modl and Windgassen. Irene Dalis and Jess Thomas fall much more pleasantly on my ears, and they seem quite sufficiently dedicated to me. The only reason I listen to the 1951 is for Hermann Uhde's incomparably neurotic Klingsor.


----------



## howlingfantods

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Also, hadn't he already conducted Parsifal dozens of times going back to the 1920s? We think of the 1951 as "early" Kna because it is the first recording, but the performance history had already long been built and settled.
> 
> I don't find Kna more tentative, in any case. I think he is more concentrated and dedicated, perhaps owing to the of the occasion of Bayreuth's reopening. I have listened to several of the later Kna's and still come to the conclusion that 1951 was the best.


"Tentative" might not be the right word--I'd characterize it as feeling like the intensity of the performance ebbs and wanes at times. I find the Kna Parsifal performances of 1962-64 more focused, more directed and generally less forgettable than many moments of his 1951. Often, I feel like in his 1951, he's just beating time.



Brahmsianhorn said:


> Another, IMO ludicrous, argument put forth against the 1951 is that it is too slow. Honestly now, how much of a difference is 20 minutes in a 4-hour opera? Again, for me this is a result of the extra dedication to the proceedings, which I hear palpably in the recording as I compare it to others. Slower does not automatically mean more dedicated, but it does in this case. And dedication is essential in long works from the likes of Wagner, Mahler and Bruckner.


Sometimes 20 minutes doesn't feel like much to me, sometimes it feels like a lot. The Bayreuth Levine for instance seems interminable even though it's only a few more minutes more than many of the recordings I like. The Met Levine is just a few minutes shorter than the Bayreuth Levine, but it seems much less--it's far less interminable (although still not exactly good).

So for me, I don't think the problem of the 1951 Kna has to do with the 20 minutes, but more that the 20 minutes is a symptom of Kna not really having a great feel at all times for what direction he's going in, where he is at, and what the architecture of the scene is, at least in some sections of the opera. His later runs are much more riveting to me.

Plus, for me, the singing is worse.


----------



## wkasimer

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Another, IMO ludicrous, argument put forth against the 1951 is that it is too slow. Honestly now, how much of a difference is 20 minutes in a 4-hour opera?


That would depend, of course, on where those extra 20 minutes are....


----------



## howlingfantods

wkasimer said:


> I spend a lot of time listening to singers from the acoustic era, so by comparison, that 1951 Parsifal is like manna from heaven sonically.


Yeah, the acoustic era is a bit of a trial for me. I suppose I must be a pretty decadent philistine, with my preferences for electrical era and later.


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## Brahmsianhorn

This discussion reminds me of the adage that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. What for some is tentativeness is for others deep care and concentration. It is all in the eye of the beholder.

I will say there are other conductors - Barenboim comes to mind - where going more slowly sounds like an imposition to achieve an effect rather than a natural consequence of being "zoned in" to the music. In other words, he is trying to achieve an effect of concentration, but to my ears it fails. Generally not the case for me with conductors like Furtwangler, Klemperer, or Kna. Klemp especially. Nothing he did was to achieve an effect. It was all a natural consequence of what he wanted and felt in the moment.


----------



## howlingfantods

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I will say there are other conductors - Barenboim comes to mind - where going more slowly sounds like an imposition to achieve an effect rather than a natural consequence of being "zoned in" to the music. In other words, he is trying to achieve an effect of concentration, but to my ears it fails. Generally not the case for me with conductors like Furtwangler, Klemperer, or Kna. Klemp especially. Nothing he did was to achieve an effect. It was all a natural consequence of what he wanted and felt in the moment.


I think that's exactly the point--I think Kna was all about communicating what he felt in the moment too, but what he felt in the moment at times in the 1951 recording seems in my hearing to have been "not much going on here, guys, let's just get through it". By the 60's, all those problem spots where he's really not doing much of anything seems much more purposive and thought through.

Frankly, it's not surprising. Kna was notoriously lazy and spent no time in rehearsals thinking through his interpretation. If you wing it all the time, it may take you decades to get something right, especially something as magical but occasionally slow to reveal its beauties as Parsifal.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

howlingfantods said:


> Frankly, it's not surprising. Kna was notoriously lazy and spent no time in rehearsals thinking through his interpretation. If you wing it all the time, it may take you decades to get something right, especially something as magical but occasionally slow to reveal its beauties as Parsifal.


Precisely the opposite. He was an artist of the moment, not of preparation and details. Same with Furtwangler. To some they came across as lost and incoherent. To others they came across as uniquely inspired. The whole point of inspiration is in NOT having everything planned out beforehand.


----------



## howlingfantods

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Precisely the opposite. He was an artist of the moment, not of preparation and details. Same with Furtwangler. To some they came across as lost and incoherent. To others they came across as uniquely inspired. The whole point of inspiration is in NOT having everything planned out beforehand.


Well, agree to disagree I suppose. It's odd that you keep lecturing me about what is great about Kna, when I'm not contrasting Kna to someone else, I'm contrasting Kna to himself a decade later. And the odd intrusion of Furtwangler, the conductor who I esteem above all others. I suppose if I say that I like Furt Ring 1950 over Furt Ring 1953, that will also be occasion to tell me about how I misunderstand Furt?


----------



## NLAdriaan

As to slow, just listen to Celibidaches new era Bruckner recordings, slow but electric and maybe not for eternity, but I enjoyed it a lot (also live). 

As to rehearsing vs inspiration of the moment: Gergiev is today's Knappertsbusch, as he also doesn't rehearse too much and lets it depend on the inspiration of the moment. But my old hero Carlos Kleiber proved that a lot of rehearsing could still lead to incredible vivid and inspired concerts.


----------



## DarkAngel

Another great restoration by Andrew Rose of 37 MET radio broadcast, this assembles some of the greatest wagner singers of any era and presents them in prime voice, the sound is far superior to any previous release (Naxos etc)

Listen to young Kirsten awaken and sing "heil dir sonne" even the forte orchestral sections now have minimal distortion, a gift from the opera gods.....

https://www.pristineclassical.com/products/paco139?source=2da7ba21-a469-4b3d-95c9-45d083ff042b

If you wonder why we have almost no recordings of MET radio broadcasts from 1931-35 seasons Rose comments:



> The recording was made on 16 inch transcription discs by NBC using a direct line feed to a series of cutting machines. NBC recorded all of its Met opera broadcasts, starting in 1931, but most were lost or destroyed. The 1936-1937 season is the first one where line recordings (rather than airchecks) of most of the performances still exist.


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## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> If you wonder why we have almost no recordings of MET radio broadcasts from 1931-35 seasons Rose comments:
> 
> "The recording was made on 16 inch transcription discs by NBC using a direct line feed to a series of cutting machines. NBC recorded all of its Met opera broadcasts, starting in 1931, but most were lost or destroyed. The 1936-1937 season is the first one where line recordings (rather than airchecks) of most of the performances still exist."


If we had those earlier broadcasts, would we have complete performances of Melchior and Frida Leider together in _Tristan_ and the _Ring?_


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## Barbebleu

Woodduck said:


> If we had those earlier broadcasts, would we have complete performances of Melchior and Frida Leider together in _Tristan_ and the _Ring?_


Mostly complete I would imagine. Did Melchior ever sing an uncut Tristan?


----------



## DarkAngel

Woodduck said:


> If we had those earlier broadcasts, would we have complete performances of Melchior and Frida Leider together in _Tristan_ and the _Ring?_












Indeed we would (not complete Ring broadcast)........
Jackson has comments on these

33 Tristan - Leider & Melchior

34 Tristan - Kappel & Melchior
34 Walkure - Leider
34 Lohengrin - Rethberg & Melchior

35 Tannhauser - Muller & Melchior
35 Walkure - Flagstad
35 Tristan - Flagstad & Melchior

*From MET archives Wagner radio broadcasts 1931-35 *(active links for cast)


[Met Performance] CID:110330 
Tannhäuser {263}
Metropolitan Opera House; 02/12/1932
Broadcast (Act II)
Review[Met Performance] CID:110410 
Tristan und Isolde {204}
Metropolitan Opera House; 02/18/1932
Broadcast (Act II)
Review[Met Performance] CID:110520 
Das Rheingold {69} Ring Cycle [53] Uncut
Metropolitan Opera House; 02/26/1932
Debut: Arthur Anderson
Broadcast[Met Performance] CID:110800 
Götterdämmerung {112} Ring Cycle [53] Uncut
Metropolitan Opera House; 03/17/1932
Broadcast (Act I, Scene 2, Act II)[Met Performance] CID:112900 
Das Rheingold {70} Ring Cycle [54] Uncut
Metropolitan Opera House; 01/27/1933
Broadcast (Partial)
Review[Met Performance] CID:112980 
Die Walküre {264} Ring Cycle [54} Uncut
Metropolitan Opera House; 02/2/1933
Broadcast (Partial)
Review[Met Performance] CID:113400 
Tristan und Isolde {212}
Metropolitan Opera House; 03/3/1933
Broadcast (Acts I, II)
Review[Met Performance] CID:114170 
Tristan und Isolde {215}
Metropolitan Opera House; 01/6/1934
Broadcast
Review[Met Performance] CID:114550 
Die Walküre {268}
Metropolitan Opera House; 02/3/1934
Broadcast
Review[Met Performance] CID:116510  
Die Walküre {273}
Metropolitan Opera House; 02/2/1935
Debut: Kirsten Flagstad 
Broadcast
Review[Met Performance] CID:118060 
Lohengrin {402}
Metropolitan Opera House; 12/21/1935
Debut: Julius Huehn 
Broadcast
Review


----------



## wkasimer

Barbebleu said:


> Mostly complete I would imagine. Did Melchior ever sing an uncut Tristan?


No, he did not....


----------



## Gondowe

He did not in the Met. But he did in Europe, Bayreuth of course. But I think we would never have one.


----------



## wkasimer

Gondowe said:


> He did not in the Met. But he did in Europe, Bayreuth of course. But I think we would never have one.


Was Tristan always performed uncut at Bayreuth? I know that's the case in the post-WW2 era, but I'm not sure about the years before 1945.

And did Melchior ever sing Tristan there? I don't have my copy of "Tristanissimo" handy, and the online Bayreuth database only goes back to 1951.


----------



## Barbebleu

Did Melchior not just sing Siegmund and Parsifal at Bayreuth? That might have been in the 1928 season but I could be wrong. I'm pretty sure Melchior never sang Tristan at Bayreuth. He was due to sing it in the 1931 season but fell out with the management and never returned to Bayreuth. I believe he didn't get on with either Furtwangler or Winifred and wasn't happy with some of the reviews of his Siegmund and Parsifal. Whatever the reasons, he broke his contract and that was that.

Addendum. I see that according to The Melchior website he did sing Tristan in 1930 under Toscanini and in 1931 under Furtwangler. I'm still of the thought that he didn't actually perform in '31 but again, it's hard to get conclusive evidence. I wish the Bayreuth archives showed the stuff prior to '51.


----------



## howlingfantods

wkasimer said:


> Was Tristan always performed uncut at Bayreuth? I know that's the case in the post-WW2 era, but I'm not sure about the years before 1945.
> 
> And did Melchior ever sing Tristan there? I don't have my copy of "Tristanissimo" handy, and the online Bayreuth database only goes back to 1951.


I recall seeing a review of the 1928 Elmendorff Tristan with Larsen-Todsen and Gunnar Graarud, where the reviewer mentioned that Graarud alternated Tristan with Melchior at Bayreuth from 1927-1931. No idea if they were presented complete--the conductors would have also alternated in that span, with Elmendorff conducting in 1927 and 28, Toscanini in 1930, and Furtwangler in 1931.

Edited to add--I don't own this book, but from doing a little light googling, it looks like Melchior at least did Walkure, Tristan and Tannhauser in 1931--unfortunately some of the key pages aren't included in the previews, but Melchior's own words talking about his roles include Tristan, on page 227:
https://books.google.com/books?id=B...ECAwQAQ#v=onepage&q=melchior bayreuth&f=false


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## DarkAngel

^^^ HFT the book you referenced is available cheap used at Amazon USA, has many B/W photos (not best picture quality) of singers and stage sets, put an order in.......not sure why 1924-31 were considered the "golden years" at Bayreuth (festival was closed for 10yrs prior to 1924) only to note that RCA began radio broadcasts at the MET in 1931, and I suspect Melchior must have packed up and left the festival by 1931










This could be a good primer for the Jackson MET book above that begins in 1931.........


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## wkasimer

DarkAngel said:


> ^^^ HFT the book you referenced is available cheap used at Amazon USA, has many B/W photos (not best picture quality) of singers and stage sets, put an order in.......not sure why 1924-31 were considered the "golden years" at Bayreuth


Probably because it was written by Melchior's son....


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## DarkAngel

wkasimer said:


> Probably because it was written by Melchior's son....


I really must learn to read the fine print


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## GeorgeMcW

Hi Wagner fans.. I have not been on TC for a while, and back after a hiatus. 

Curious to hear - who are your favourite Siegfrieds (role, not opera) - is Windgassen generally regarded as the one? and if so, which Windgassen ?


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## Woodduck

GeorgeMcW said:


> Hi Wagner fans.. I have not been on TC for a while, and back after a hiatus.
> 
> Curious to hear - who are your favourite Siegfrieds (role, not opera) - is Windgassen generally regarded as the one? and if so, which Windgassen ?


Wolfgang's father Fritz (1883-1963) was also a noted tenor who sang Wagner. There seem to be no recordings of his Siegfried, but YouTube gives us some selections from Tannhauser, recorded live when the singer was 53 and clearly past his prime. They start at 17:42:


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## Granate

GeorgeMcW said:


> Curious to hear - who are your favourite Siegfrieds (role, not opera) - is Windgassen generally regarded as the one? and if so, which Windgassen?


Generally Aldenhoff 1957, René Kollo Bayreuth 1976, and for Windgassen, I end up liking him in the last stage of his career: the Böhm recordings for DG that ended up under Philips in Bayreuth.


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## wkasimer

GeorgeMcW said:


> Curious to hear - who are your favourite Siegfrieds (role, not opera) - is Windgassen generally regarded as the one? and if so, which Windgassen ?


Among complete recordings or recorded performances, Alberto Remedios and Jean Cox, and Rene Kollo on a good day. For excerpts, Melchior, Paul Franz, and Ivan Ershov.


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## Itullian

I'm fine with W Windgassen


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## GeorgeMcW

Woodduck said:


> Wolfgang's father Fritz (1883-1963) was also a noted tenor who sang Wagner. There seem to be no recordings of his Siegfried, but YouTube gives us some selections from Tannhauser, recorded live when the singer was 53 and clearly past his prime. They start at 17:42:


Thanks Woodduck. Quite a family


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## Bonetan

GeorgeMcW said:


> Hi Wagner fans.. I have not been on TC for a while, and back after a hiatus.
> 
> Curious to hear - who are your favourite Siegfrieds (role, not opera) - is Windgassen generally regarded as the one? and if so, which Windgassen ?


I find Windgassen to be overrated & overparted as Siegfried. I think we have a better Siegfried singing currently...


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## Barbebleu

Bonetan said:


> I find Windgassen to be overrated & overparted as Siegfried. I think we have a better Siegfried singing currently...


Who do you have in mind? Before you reply bear in mind I have a weak heart and laughing out loud hysterically might have a deleterious affect on me!:lol:


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## Granate

Bonetan said:


> I find Windgassen to be overrated & overparted as Siegfried. I think we have a better Siegfried singing currently...


I'd only accept Mr. Simon O'Neill.






But no, I don't agree.


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## Bonetan

Barbebleu said:


> Who do you have in mind? Before you reply bear in mind I have a weak heart and laughing out loud hysterically might have a deleterious affect on me!:lol:


Schager. As Siegfried, I don't think one can ask for more. The power, stamina, musicianship, exuberance...its all there. I heard him in as Siegfried in December & it was sensational...I just don't think Windgassen had the vocal material, as fine an artist as he was. I think there's a reason he wasn't always the 1st choice & too many reports about Windgassen begin with "he didn't have the prettiest voice, but...". Or "he didn't have the most powerful voice, but...". Too many 'buts'!

I wish I could have heard Windgassen live to make a more legitimate comparison...


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## Granate

Andreas Schager doesn't sound bad, but I would need to hear him on a video around a full Wagner orchestra. If you say so, then it's fine, then wish for him to make records that do justice to that performance.


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## Bonetan

Granate said:


> Andreas Schager doesn't sound bad, but I would need to hear him on a video around a full Wagner orchestra. If you say so, then it's fine, then wish for him to make records that do justice to that performance.


I think his is a voice that needs to be heard live to be fully appreciated. I've liked him from the beginning, but I didn't realize how special he is until I heard him with only an orchestra & about 5 rows between us. He's having a moment right now, I'd say it began in the last 2 years or so, & I hope everyone here gets to hear him. Whatever any of us heard before 2018 doesn't do justice to the artist he is today.


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## GeorgeMcW

Bonetan said:


> I think his is a voice that needs to be heard live to be fully appreciated. I've liked him from the beginning, but I didn't realize how special he is until I heard him with only an orchestra & about 5 rows between us. He's having a moment right now, I'd say it began in the last 2 years or so, & I hope everyone here gets to hear him. Whatever any of us heard before 2018 doesn't do justice to the artist he is today.


Found this clip on YouTube


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## Bonetan

GeorgeMcW said:


> Found this clip on YouTube


& that's from 4 years ago before he hit his Siegfried prime


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## 89Koechel

Very fine, Dark Angel … and we could ALWAYS-reference the "great Dane"/Melchior), so to speak as an example of the best days of vocalism, of the Heldentenor days, or others … in other roles (as a "sidelight", so to speak, of others). Is this man to be-forgotten, gradually (or worse), or is your (and others') "testimony" to be marked, as such as it should? … Well, we'll see - eh?


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## DarkAngel

89Koechel said:


> Very fine, Dark Angel … and we could ALWAYS-reference the "great Dane"/Melchior), so to speak as an example of the best days of vocalism, of the Heldentenor days, or others … in other roles (as a "sidelight", so to speak, of others). Is this man to be-forgotten, gradually (or worse), or is your (and others') "testimony" to be marked, as such as it should? … Well, we'll see - eh?


Yes the "great dane" Melchior did completely dominate the role for an extended time, he began singing the role at the MET in mid 1920s and by 1931-47 during the radio broadcast period he pretty much owned the role.

Set Svanholm from 1947-52 became the MET Siegfried of choice then afterwards the role was farmed out to Windgassen, Hopf and others. I do wish we had more good recordings of Svanholm since he had a beautiful soft voice, there is a 42 Bayreuth Gotterdammerung in good sound where he shows his talents, and 1950 Furtwangler Ring (Pristine XR)......










After the early 1950s R. Bing came along almost closed down the Wagner wing at MET, there was just a trickle of performances during 1950-60s era compared to before

I tend to agree with Itullian that early Bayreuth Windgassen 1953-58 Siegfried was very good with a more elastic supple vocal tone and youthful energy guiding his performances, helped also by stellar supporting casts of the time!


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## Barbebleu

Bonetan said:


> Schager. As Siegfried, I don't think one can ask for more. The power, stamina, musicianship, exuberance...its all there. I heard him in as Siegfried in December & it was sensational...I just don't think Windgassen had the vocal material, as fine an artist as he was. I think there's a reason he wasn't always the 1st choice & too many reports about Windgassen begin with "he didn't have the prettiest voice, but...". Or "he didn't have the most powerful voice, but...". Too many 'buts'!
> 
> I wish I could have heard Windgassen live to make a more legitimate comparison...


O.k. I last heard Schager in Berlin in 2013 - in less than ideal conditions - so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. I have a video of the Bayreuth 2018 Parsifal with Schager in the title rôle so I'll give it a watch soon. I'm still not convinced that we are well-off for heroic tenors nowadays and I'm not hugely enamoured of either Skelton or O'Neill.


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## wkasimer

Barbebleu said:


> O.k. I last heard Schager in Berlin in 2013 - in less than ideal conditions - so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. I have a video of the Bayreuth 2018 Parsifal with Schager in the title rôle so I'll give it a watch soon. I'm still not convinced that we are well-off for heroic tenors nowadays and I'm not hugely enamoured of either Skelton or O'Neill.


They're better than a lot of the folks who are singing the role - O'Neill's Siegfried on the recent Naxos recording was actually one of the best aspects of that RING cycle.

I've yet to hear Schager in the flesh, but I have tickets to RING cycle 2 at the Met, so I expect to have the chance to do so. He's likely to be an improvement over my two previous live Met Siegfrieds, William Johns and Jay Hunter Morris, but that's not a very high bar.


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## GeorgeMcW

I am going to Gotterdammerung at the Met - looking forward to hearing Schager too.


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## Barbebleu

wkasimer said:


> They're better than a lot of the folks who are singing the role - O'Neill's Siegfried on the recent Naxos recording was actually one of the best aspects of that RING cycle.
> 
> I've yet to hear Schager in the flesh, but I have tickets to RING cycle 2 at the Met, so I expect to have the chance to do so. He's likely to be an improvement over my two previous live Met Siegfrieds, William Johns and Jay Hunter Morris, but that's not a very high bar.


I think you're being a wee bit harsh on Morris. Admittedly I've only heard him on DVD but I didn't think he was that bad and as far as his acting was concerned, I thought he wasn't too shabby.

Can't comment on Johns as I've never heard him. From your comments I would appear to have dodged a bullet!:lol:


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## howlingfantods

GeorgeMcW said:


> Hi Wagner fans.. I have not been on TC for a while, and back after a hiatus.
> 
> Curious to hear - who are your favourite Siegfrieds (role, not opera) - is Windgassen generally regarded as the one? and if so, which Windgassen ?


I probably like Windgassen the most, although I hear all the things detractors hear too. I just find him a more affecting, touching Siegfried than most. He has more sap in the voice in the 50s but I find his performance on the Bohm to be his best--the voice is a little thinner and greyer than in the 50s but more deeply felt and musical. Plus he was guaranteed to screw up a dozen times in his 50s performances, he got more reliable over time.

Others I like--Svanholm, Lorenz and Jerusalem. I prefer Siegfrieds that sound more youthful and impetuous, with brighter and lighter voices over the big beefy brawny tenors like Hopf or Suthaus. And to me, if you don't sell the Brunnhilde, heilige Braut, there's no point to your performance.

For tenors performing today, from what I've heard from live broadcasts over the past few years, I like Vinke the best.


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## Barbebleu

howlingfantods said:


> I probably like Windgassen the most, although I hear all the things detractors hear too. I just find him a more affecting, touching Siegfried than most. He has more sap in the voice in the 50s but I find his performance on the Bohm to be his best--the voice is a little thinner and greyer than in the 50s but more deeply felt and musical. Plus he was guaranteed to screw up a dozen times in his 50s performances, he got more reliable over time.
> 
> Others I like--Svanholm, Lorenz and Jerusalem. I prefer Siegfrieds that sound more youthful and impetuous, with brighter and lighter voices over the big beefy brawny tenors like Hopf or Suthaus. And to me, if you don't sell the Brunnhilde, heilige Braut, there's no point to your performance.
> 
> For tenors performing today, from what I've heard from live broadcasts over the past few years, I like Vinke the best.


I like Windgassen too although I totally agree with what you say about his fifties outings. He seemed to have particular problems keeping in step with the orchestra in the passages that required keeping in time with sharply delineated rhythms, e.g. the forging song!!


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## Scott in PA

All this talk about historic Siegfrieds is interesting and timely, because the last two weeks I listened to the two Furtwängler Siegfrieds: the 1950 La Scala with Svanholm and Flagstad, and the 1953 Rome with Suthaus and Mödl and I had some comments.

I think Siegfried is ultimately judged on the performance of the title role, and I found the Suthaus recording superior. He has a more pleasing tone, and sings the role with more sustained tone than Svanholm. Also, there’s not much differentiation between Svanholm’s Siegfried and Peter Markwort’s Mime – a real "Bayreuth barking" contest. In the 1953 performance, Suthaus is paired with the Mime of Julius Patzak. This was my first exposure to Patzak and I thought he was really good – singing the role with good tone, no manic, rough-edged sounds. Patzak is almost lyrical at points, but still in character. There’s more differentiation between Suthaus and Patzak. The different ambient musical characterizations that Wagner created between these roles come through more naturally. 

For the Brünnhilde, Flagstad is Flagstad, a flood of powerful sound, but warm and gentle where needed. She does omit the high C on the final note. I believe there are no recorded instances of Flagstad singing this note. She does however sing a scintillating high C on “Leuchtender Spross” during the “Ewig war ich”. 

Mödl does really well also. She has a darker toned soprano, and the Siegfried Brunnhilde is a high role for her. She was singing a lot of Kundry around this time. Alas, she also omits the high C on the final note. At first I thought she touched it for a quarter beat, but I replayed it several times and I couldn’t hear it. I think I was hearing the flute at first. Like Flagstad, she gives a decent C on “Leuchtender”. 

The orchestras sound comparable, but I give a slight nod to the La Scala orchestra (1950). I can’t imagine how much rehearsal time was necessary to put on these Rings, since I don’t believe either orchestra was doing much Wagner at this time, a few years after the War. Certainly not as much as in Vienna or Bayreuth. I found the recorded sound better on the 1953 performance. Overall I give it to 1953 because of Suthaus.


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## DarkAngel

howlingfantods said:


> I probably like Windgassen the most, although I hear all the things detractors hear too. I just find him a more affecting, touching Siegfried than most. He has more sap in the voice in the 50s but I find his performance on the Bohm to be his best--the voice is a little thinner and greyer than in the 50s but more deeply felt and musical. Plus he was guaranteed to screw up a dozen times in his 50s performances, he got more reliable over time.
> 
> Others I like--Svanholm, Lorenz and Jerusalem. I prefer Siegfrieds that sound more youthful and impetuous, with brighter and lighter voices over the big beefy brawny tenors like Hopf or Suthaus. *And to me, if you don't sell the Brunnhilde, heilige Braut, there's no point to your performance. *


Ah yes, the dark mirror image aria (death of Siegfried) compared to heil dir sonne (awakening of Brunhilde) the familar opening motif with harp strings leading to very different scence endings......lets compare 57 Windgassen to some greats in the 1940s with decent sound

57 Windgassen





44 Max Lorenz





42 Set Svanholm - from Gotterdammerung album pictured above


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## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> Ah yes, the dark mirror image aria (death of Siegfried) compared to heil dir sonne (awakening of Brunhilde) the familar opening motif with harp strings leading to very different scence endings......lets compare 57 Windgassen to some greats in the 1940s with decent sound
> 
> 57 Windgassen
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 44 Max Lorenz
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 42 Set Svanholm - from Gotterdammerung album pictured above


I love sampling different singers in the same music. These three were all fine exponents of the role. Purely as a voice, I think I prefer Svanholm (also a handsome Nordic type who must have cut a pleasing Siegfried-like figure onstage). But the other two sound more emotive here.

I couldn't resist going back to the Great Dane for some perspective. Start at 9:10:






Nothing to add there. I do wish we had more Wagner recordings from the great Dutch tenor Jacques Urlus.


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## DarkAngel

^^^ I was almost going to include Melchior sample, but then I thought why take away Duck's fun, let him serve it up 

(great sound for 1930 performance)


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## Barbebleu

Opera Depot are doing 50% off all Ring Cycles and have a free download of the '76 Ring at Bayreuth complete with boos!!


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## NLAdriaan

Barbebleu said:


> Opera Depot are doing 50% off all Ring Cycles and have a free download of the '76 Ring at Bayreuth complete with boos!!


Thx for sharing, I didn't know this shop and have just purchased two Carlos Kleiber recordings, Tirstan 76 and Wozzeck, (no discount).

Kleiber's Tristan at Bayreuth 76 is reviewed by a famous visitor in the audience: Sviatoslav Richter. He writes about this evening in his notebook:
"I fear that as long as I live, I shall never hear another _Tristan_ like this one.
Carlos Kleiber brought the music to boiling point and kept it there throughout the whole evening 
There's no doubt that he's the greatest conductor of our day"
"Eine Sternstunde in the fullest sense of the word"
"Following the performance, Kostia Metaxas (_Kleiber's ad-hoc agent_) persuaded me to seek out the conductor and share my impressions with him. He seemed rather depressed and displeased with himself. I told him what I thought and he suddenly leapt into the air with joy, like a child: 'Also wirklich gut?'. Such a titan, and so unsure of himself."

I am very pleased to have found this recording, which actually sounds really good (as good as it gets from a 1976 live recording) and I am now diving into it. Thx again

Thx again for your post!


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## Granate

^^

That made me very angry. I got that one for 23€ on sale and it was almost my favourite ring in Stereo. The conducting and the singing is astonishing, and I prefer the sound engineering to 1977.

If I ever got a new Ring from there, it would be Bayreuth 1960 or Covent Garden 1976, especially the first. They have also released the Bayreuth 1972 Ring with Stereo sound but many intermissions.


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## Granate

NLAdriaan said:


> Thx for sharing, I didn't know this shop and have just purchased two Carlos Kleiber recordings, Tirstan 76 and Wozzeck, (no discount).


You should actually wait for the sales. There are many complete sales during the year and also many that have to do with composers or singers. Be patient and just put the recordings on the wishlist until OD mails you with the sale of the week. Labor day is the next complete sale I remember in the calendar. There's a Parsifal sale on Holy Friday I think.


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## NLAdriaan

Granate said:


> You should actually wait for the sales. There are many complete sales during the year and also many that have to do with composers or singers. Be patient and just put the recordings on the wishlist until OD mails you with the sale of the week. Labor day is the next complete sale I remember in the calendar. There's a Parsifal sale on Holy Friday I think.


Thx, too late for now (couldn't wait when I saw it), but I will sure follow up!


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## wkasimer

Barbebleu said:


> I think you're being a wee bit harsh on [Jay Hunter] Morris. Admittedly I've only heard him on DVD but I didn't think he was that bad and as far as his acting was concerned, I thought he wasn't too shabby.


His acting is fine, and he looks the part. But having heard him in the house for both Siegfried and Gotterdammerung, I have to say that his voice is three sizes too small for the role; it's a voice that would be better suited to, at most, the Steersman in Hollander or Froh in Rheingold.

That was really my complaint about much of the Ring last time the Met staged it - with very few exceptions, no one on the stage had any business singing the roles to which they were assigned. I expect that this year's cast will fare better.


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## amfortas

wkasimer said:


> His acting is fine, and he looks the part. But having heard him in the house for both Siegfried and Gotterdammerung, I have to say that his voice is three sizes too small for the role; it's a voice that would be better suited to, at most, the Steersman in Hollander or Froh in Rheingold.
> 
> That was really my complaint about much of the Ring last time the Met staged it . . .


Bear in mind that, for the initial staging, Morris was a last-minute replacement for Gary Lehman. Given the shortage of Siegfrieds out there, Morris was a heroic tenor in at least a behind-the-scenes sense.


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## howlingfantods

NLAdriaan said:


> Thx for sharing, I didn't know this shop and have just purchased two Carlos Kleiber recordings, Tirstan 76 and Wozzeck, (no discount).
> 
> Kleiber's Tristan at Bayreuth 76 is reviewed by a famous visitor in the audience: Sviatoslav Richter. He writes about this evening in his notebook:
> "I fear that as long as I live, I shall never hear another _Tristan_ like this one.
> Carlos Kleiber brought the music to boiling point and kept it there throughout the whole evening
> There's no doubt that he's the greatest conductor of our day"
> "Eine Sternstunde in the fullest sense of the word"
> "Following the performance, Kostia Metaxas (_Kleiber's ad-hoc agent_) persuaded me to seek out the conductor and share my impressions with him. He seemed rather depressed and displeased with himself. I told him what I thought and he suddenly leapt into the air with joy, like a child: 'Also wirklich gut?'. Such a titan, and so unsure of himself."
> 
> I am very pleased to have found this recording, which actually sounds really good (as good as it gets from a 1976 live recording) and I am now diving into it. Thx again
> 
> Thx again for your post!


Operadepot is a gem of a website. Among other things, it has my favorite Aida (Arroyo/Domingo), one of my favorite Don Carlos (Domingo/Freni), my favorite Don Giovanni (Solti/Soyer/M Price), along with that excellent Kleiber Tristan you already purchased. Also have a pile of recordings that, while not my favorites, are in my heavy listening rotation, particularly for the less recorded artists like Gencer (a fantastic Ballo, Don Carlo, Rigoletto and Macbeth) and Olivero (a lovely Manon Lescaut and Adriana L with Domingo). I haven't found as many gems in Wagner other than that Kleiber Tristan--a lot of my Wagner purchases at OD has been of the listen once and set aside variety unfortunately.

As others have noted, there's almost always a site-wide sale for around half off every major US holiday, so you can get these great recordings for a few bucks each if you're patient.


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## Barbebleu

wkasimer said:


> His acting is fine, and he looks the part. But having heard him in the house for both Siegfried and Gotterdammerung, I have to say that his voice is three sizes too small for the role; it's a voice that would be better suited to, at most, the Steersman in Hollander or Froh in Rheingold.
> 
> That was really my complaint about much of the Ring last time the Met staged it - with very few exceptions, no one on the stage had any business singing the roles to which they were assigned. I expect that this year's cast will fare better.


Yeah, I can see your point here. Hearing him on DVD probably gives a false impression of his power, or lack thereof!!


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## Granate

NLAdriaan said:


> Thx, too late for now (couldn't wait when I saw it), but I will sure follow up!


By the way, everybody get the free download of the Boulez 1976 Ring if you don't have it already.


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## mountmccabe

howlingfantods said:


> Operadepot is a gem of a website. Among other things, it has my favorite Aida (Arroyo/Domingo), one of my favorite Don Carlos (Domingo/Freni), my favorite Don Giovanni (Solti/Soyer/M Price), along with that excellent Kleiber Tristan you already purchased. Also have a pile of recordings that, while not my favorites, are in my heavy listening rotation, particularly for the less recorded artists like Gencer (a fantastic Ballo, Don Carlo, Rigoletto and Macbeth) and Olivero (a lovely Manon Lescaut and Adriana L with Domingo). I haven't found as many gems in Wagner other than that Kleiber Tristan--a lot of my Wagner purchases at OD has been of the listen once and set aside variety unfortunately.
> 
> As others have noted, there's almost always a site-wide sale for around half off every major US holiday, so you can get these great recordings for a few bucks each if you're patient.


I've found quite a few great recordings there, too, and a lot of the other recordings are really interesting, so good to hear, even if just once.

But I've also had trouble playing maybe a third of the mp3s I've gotten from them, and they don't do refunds, so I don't plan on buying anything from them again.

So all I'm saying is be careful if you do the downloads.


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## Barbebleu

mountmccabe said:


> I've found quite a few great recordings there, too, and a lot of the other recordings are really interesting, so good to hear, even if just once.
> 
> But I've also had trouble playing maybe a third of the mp3s I've gotten from them, and they don't do refunds, so I don't plan on buying anything from them again.
> 
> So all I'm saying is be careful if you do the downloads.


If I ever have a problem with the downloads I usually just email Andrew and he invariably finds a fix. If necessary he will email you a link directly to the faulty track or tracks. I've had a few blips but they've all been fixed.


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## mountmccabe

Whereas I got told to not use WinAmp (I wasn't).

I mean, I suppose I'm being picky. I found a video player that would play the mp3s. But, I mean, I have other mp3s and am not going to switch to always using a video player so I can play his poor mp3s. So those mp3s aren't there in my normal library and I never think to open up the special player to listen to them.


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## gardibolt

Back to Siegfrieds, I quite enjoyed Burkhard Fritz in the Chicago production last fall. He's no Melchior, but he held his own with the Brünnhilde and had a terrific stage presence.

And yes, grab the 1976 Boulez from operadepot for free. And buy the 1977 while you're there.


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## GeorgeMcW

After listening to a bit of the Met Die Walkure broadcast today (Act I & III), I found myself yearning for more - so I listened to the Karajan 1958 La Scala performance - Suthaus, Rysanek, Hotter and the young B Nilsson. 

Ahhh! I feel better now ...


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## Music Snob

Does anyone have any Frida Leider CD recommendations? I have the HMV Potted Ring but would like to track down some other recordings. The info and reviews I have found online haven’t really sold me on any particular product. Does anyone have any they recommend?


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## wkasimer

Music Snob said:


> Does anyone have any Frida Leider CD recommendations? I have the HMV Potted Ring but would like to track down some other recordings. The info and reviews I have found online haven't really sold me on any particular product. Does anyone have any they recommend?


Both Preiser and Naxos have excellent collections of Leider, one of the great singers of the 20th century:

















The Preiser is actually a 3 CD set, and I'm surprised that it's available so cheaply on Amazon Marketplace. A lot of Preiser issues have become pretty pricey, so I'd snap this up while you can.


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## DarkAngel

> Does anyone have any Frida Leider CD recommendations? I have the HMV Potted Ring but would like to track down some other recordings. The info and reviews I have found online haven't really sold me on any particular product. Does anyone have any they recommend?


Frida was active at the MET in early 1930s and has several Wagner opera Radio broadcasts with Melchior & Schorr, but as Andrew Rose (Pristine XR) has noted almost all MET radio transcription discs from 1931-35 are lost or destroyed so we have no complete opera performances to draw from......here is what could have been heard!

*Metropolitan Opera House
February 2, 1933 Matinee Broadcast*

*DIE WALKÜRE {264}
Der Ring des Nibelungen: Cycle [54] Uncut

Brünnhilde..............Frida Leider
Siegmund................Lauritz Melchior
Sieglinde...............Grete Stückgold
Wotan...................Friedrich Schorr
Fricka..................Maria Olszewska
Hunding.................Siegfried Tappolet
Gerhilde................Phradie Wells
Grimgerde...............Philine Falco
Helmwige................Dorothee Manski
Ortlinde................Margaret Halstead
Rossweisse..............Ina Bourskaya
Schwertleite............Faina Petrova
Siegrune................Elda Vettori
Waltraute...............Doris Doe

Conductor...............Artur Bodanzky*


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## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> Frida was active at the MET in early 1930s and has several Wagner opera Radio broadcasts with Melchior & Schorr, but as Andrew Rose (Pristine XR) has noted almost all MET radio transcription discs from 1931-35 are lost or destroyed so we have no complete opera performances to draw from......


Indeed, DA, the loss of those live performances with Leider as Brunnhilde and Isolde is one of the great gaps in the record of singing. All of the bits and pieces of Leider in the opera house are treasurable; I love this fragment from Act 3 of _Die Walkure:_






And this ecstatic "Liebestod," all that remains of a 1933 Met broadcast in which her Tristan was Melchior:





Love those portamenti!


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## Music Snob

Thanks- I pulled the trigger on the Preisser. Walter Legge considered her the best Brunnhilde and Isolde above Flagstad and Nielson. I like the feminine quality of her voice. I would like to hear more of her work.


----------



## wkasimer

Music Snob said:


> Thanks- I pulled the trigger on the Preisser. Walter Legge considered her the best Brunnhilde and Isolde above Flagstad and Nilsson. I like the feminine quality of her voice. I would like to hear more of her work.


Well, you certainly won't regret buying the Preiser set. Based on recordings, I agree with Legge.


----------



## gardibolt

Yeah the Preiser set is excellent. I think I bought my copy from Woodduck, so thanks Ducky!


----------



## The Conte

I haven't heard much Leider, but I keep hearing good things about her (not just on here). I suppose that is another thing to add to my YouTube listening list!

N.


----------



## Music Snob

My Frida Leider set arrived... I can understand why Melchior, Legge, and probably others held her in the highest esteem. She has a more feminine timbre to her voice than Flagstad and Nilsson, but I have to say that Flagstad still is #1 in my book. Flagstad's voice has a strength not only in its ability but also in its timbre (if that makes sense). To Leider's credit I think that the bel canto style of her singing was probably closer to what Wagner intended for his roles.


----------



## Admiral

I've been searching the 'net for any lengthy video clips or complete operas from Bayreuth from that 1951-60 era - is there anything out there?

Alternatively, has anyone done a good photo book/website of this era? The 1955 Testaments have just enough to whet my appetite but not enough to satisfy it!


----------



## DarkAngel

> Alternatively, has anyone done a good photo book/website of this era? The 1955 Testaments have just enough to whet my appetite but not enough to satisfy it!


I find the best pictures from 1950s Bayreuth can be found by exploring various Pinterest collections.............



__ https://www.pinterest.com/pin/361976888777287397/


----------



## wkasimer

It's really a shame that these two Covent Garden cycles aren't in better sound, because the performances are mostly superb:


----------



## Barbebleu

wkasimer said:


> It's really a shame that these two Covent Garden cycles aren't in better sound, because the performances are mostly superb:
> 
> View attachment 118008
> 
> 
> View attachment 118009


Seconded. Covent Garden had some great casts in the fifties.


----------



## Granate

If BBC owned the original tapes of the 59 Ring, I would 100% listen to their release, since Konwitschny's conducting is even more memorable than Kempe even competing with Kna and Böhm.


----------



## MarioDelMonacoViva

I've only recently started collecting vinyl, but I've already managed to pick up the 1968 reissue of Solti's Rheingold. I haven't got any other Wagner in my collection. (Bear in mind I've only seen one Wagner opera, Die Walkure, although it immediately made me fall in love with it). What else would you recommend, for someone who's relatively new to Wagner, but it eager to dive headfirst into his music?


----------



## wkasimer

PlacidoDomingo said:


> View attachment 118229
> 
> 
> I've only recently started collecting vinyl, but I've already managed to pick up the 1968 reissue of Solti's Rheingold. I haven't got any other Wagner in my collection. (Bear in mind I've only seen one Wagner opera, Die Walkure, although it immediately made me fall in love with it). What else would you recommend, for someone who's relatively new to Wagner, but it eager to dive headfirst into his music?


Do you want recommendations limited to vinyl? That will narrow things down considerably.


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT

Granate said:


> If BBC owned the original tapes of the 59 Ring, I would 100% listen to their release, since Konwitschny's conducting is even more memorable than Kempe even competing with Kna and Böhm.


Konwitschny was a fine conductor, somewhat underrated these days. His studio Tannhäuser is lovely (if you don't mind Hans Hopf), and his Beethoven symphony cycle with the Czech Philharmonic is superb.


----------



## Granate

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Konwitschny was a fine conductor, [...], and his Beethoven symphony cycle with the Czech Philharmonic is superb.












That was close...


----------



## Itullian

Outstanding live recording!
stereo


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## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> Outstanding live recording!
> stereo


Yep. it's a good one but sadly I think this has some bad cuts particularly in the choral sections.


----------



## wkasimer

Barbebleu said:


> Yep. it's a good one but sadly I think this has some bad cuts particularly in the choral sections.


I haven't listened to this in a while, but IIRC, the only cut is one in the third act that Wagner himself approved.


----------



## Barbebleu

wkasimer said:


> I haven't listened to this in a while, but IIRC, the only cut is one in the third act that Wagner himself approved.


I sit back in my armchair corrected!:lol:


----------



## Barbebleu

wkasimer said:


> I haven't listened to this in a while, but IIRC, the only cut is one in the third act that Wagner himself approved.


No doubt you are correct but I'm going to go through it with the score anyway because I'm that sort of deranged person who needs to see it for themselves!ut:


----------



## wkasimer

Barbebleu said:


> No doubt you are correct but I'm going to go through it with the score anyway because I'm that sort of deranged person who needs to see it for themselves!ut:


Let me know what you find. Although it's one of my favorite Lohengrin recordings, I don't listen to Lohengrin very often.


----------



## Barbebleu

wkasimer said:


> Let me know what you find. Although it's one of my favorite Lohengrin recordings, I don't listen to Lohengrin very often.


Well I started with Act 1 and it's intact. Act 3 has a cut of 168 bars from 1297 to 1465 inc. from 'O, Elsa, Was hast du mir an getan' to 'Der Schwan'. At the pace Sawalisch goes at that's probably about six or seven minutes tops. Why?

I'm interested that you say this was a cut authorised by Wagner. I wonder, was it consistently done or was it an expediency in order to get the opera performed?

I'll try and listen to Act 2 tonight or tomorrow.


----------



## howlingfantods

Barbebleu said:


> Well I started with Act 1 and it's intact. Act 3 has a cut of 168 bars from 1297 to 1465 inc. from 'O, Elsa, Was hast du mir an getan' to 'Der Schwan'. At the pace Böhm goes at that's probably about six or seven minutes tops. Why?
> 
> I'm interested that you say this was a cut authorised by Wagner. I wonder, was it consistently done or was it an expediency in order to get the opera performed?
> 
> I'll try and listen to Act 2 tonight or tomorrow.


Do you mean Sawallisch, or are you comparing this passage to one of Bohm's recordings?


----------



## Barbebleu

howlingfantods said:


> Do you mean Sawallisch, or are you comparing this passage to one of Bohm's recordings?


My apologies. Senior moment there. Of course it is Sawallisch. He's the only one who conducted Lohengrin in 1962!

Who knows why I said Böhm!

Incidentally the great little passage in Act 2 where Ortrud and Friedrich do their unison duet is unfortunately quite out of sync. Shame really.


----------



## wkasimer

Barbebleu said:


> I'm interested that you say this was a cut authorised by Wagner. I wonder, was it consistently done or was it an expediency in order to get the opera performed?


There are actually two different cuts in Act 3. One of them was actually made by Wagner before the work's premiere, although it is occasionally restored on records (the RCA Leinsdorf and Teldec Barenboim recordings include it). Franz Volker recorded a famous version:






The cut that you found was made, as I recall, after the premiere, for dramatic reasons. Although this passage is usually kept at Bayreuth, it was cut in that particular production. On a recording, I find the cut regrettable, but not a deal breaker.


----------



## Barbebleu

wkasimer said:


> There are actually two different cuts in Act 3. One of them was actually made by Wagner before the work's premiere, although it is occasionally restored on records (the RCA Leinsdorf and Teldec Barenboim recordings include it). Franz Volker recorded a famous version:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The cut that you found was made, as I recall, after the premiere, for dramatic reasons. Although this passage is usually kept at Bayreuth, it was cut in that particular production. On a recording, I find the cut regrettable, but not a deal breaker.


Yes, I am aware of the cut that Wagner made. I knew that Barenboim restored it in his studio version. I thought you meant he sanctioned other cuts.


----------



## wkasimer

Barbebleu said:


> Yes, I am aware of the cut that Wagner made. I knew that Barenboim restored it in his studio version. I thought you meant he sanctioned other cuts.


I believe that he approved the cut that you noticed in the Sawallisch recording. Probably thought that there were too many people standing around for the last fifteen or so minutes of the opera, and wanted to cut to the return of the swan.


----------



## Itullian

So help me out here guys.
Are there one or two cuts on this Sawallisch recording?


----------



## Barbebleu

There's the usual one that Wkasimer pointed out at the end of Act 3 when Lohengrin is narrating his back story (the excised verse) and there's the one that I found from where Elsa has just found out who Lohengrin is and is gasping for air and bemoaning her fate right through to the appearance of the swan. It's a fair chunk of material, about 36 pages of score, 168 bars. So two cuts but the missing verse is standard and doesn't even make it to the Eulenburg study score.

Even the Tannhäuser score gives the alternate versions which include all the additional Paris version material so clearly Wagner didn't want the cut he made to Lohengrin reinstated. I'm sure anything else is at the whim of directors and producers (may they all burn in hell for making cuts) and that will be that with that!!

There may be more, I haven't listened to all of Act 2 yet with the score in front of me.


----------



## Itullian

Picked this up on ebay.
It's the stereo Sawallisch Tannhauser.


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> So help me out here guys.
> Are there one or two cuts on this Sawallisch recording?


Further to my post #4202 there are two more cuts in Act 2. Both in the choral parts. One of 30 bars and another, a few minutes later, of 40 bars.

For all the time that they saved I'm baffled as to why they made these cuts.


----------



## Ragnar

Been awhile since I commented here but have been following. Since last I was heard from here I saw my first live Ring Cycle. It was awesome. But on the historic recording front I finally pulled the trigger on the Kna 58 Ring on Walhall. I procrastinated on the 57 for so long and now the Gotterdammarung from 57 is unavailable. That’s what I get for having it in my cart wait list forever. I did not want to take the chance with the 58. I’ll probably still get the Rheingold, Walkure and Siegfried from 57 in hopes I come across a Gotterdammarung. I haven’t heard the 58 at all but see the praise here. I’ve learned to trust the people here.


----------



## Barbebleu

Ragnar said:


> Been awhile since I commented here but have been following. Since last I was heard from here I saw my first live Ring Cycle. It was awesome. But on the historic recording front I finally pulled the trigger on the Kna 58 Ring on Walhall. I procrastinated on the 57 for so long and now the Gotterdammarung from 57 is unavailable. That's what I get for having it in my cart wait list forever. I did not want to take the chance with the 58. I'll probably still get the Rheingold, Walkure and Siegfried from 57 in hopes I come across a Gotterdammarung. I haven't heard the 58 at all but see the praise here. I've learned to trust the people here.


https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=Gotterdammerung+Bayreuth+1957&i=popular&ref=nb_sb_noss

Reasonable price at Amazon.co.uk


----------



## wkasimer

Ragnar said:


> I procrastinated on the 57 for so long and now the Gotterdammarung from 57 is unavailable. That's what I get for having it in my cart wait list forever. I did not want to take the chance with the 58. I'll probably still get the Rheingold, Walkure and Siegfried from 57 in hopes I come across a Gotterdammarung. I haven't heard the 58 at all but see the praise here. I've learned to trust the people here.


I don't believe that I've ever heard the 1957 Gotterdammerung. What's so special about it? I have 1956 and 1958, not to mention 1955 with Keilberth (both) - is there any reason to seek out the OOP 1957 performance?


----------



## Ragnar

The UK one seems to just be mp3. Spotify has it so that will have to do for now. I’m sure sooner or later I’ll find one. I did find one on Laudis label. I’ve never heard of them. It’s quit expensive so probably pass. I’ve only heard the Rheingold and Walkure from 57 wkasimer I seek out the Gotterdammarung from it so if I buy the others I have the complete cycle. I’am hopelessl OCD about such things. Also I’ve heard good things about it. My 58 complete cycle should be here tomorrow, so I’am very excited. I’ve taken a break from buying Wagner lately because when I do buy I buy a lot. I end up with a stack of recordings to listen to. Some get a one time listen never to be touched again others get ripped to my portable player and go with me for repeated listens.


----------



## Barbebleu

Ragnar said:


> The UK one seems to just be mp3. Spotify has it so that will have to do for now. I'm sure sooner or later I'll find one. I did find one on Laudis label. I've never heard of them. It's quit expensive so probably pass. I've only heard the Rheingold and Walkure from 57 wkasimer I seek out the Gotterdammarung from it so if I buy the others I have the complete cycle. I'am hopelessl OCD about such things. Also I've heard good things about it. My 58 complete cycle should be here tomorrow, so I'am very excited. I've taken a break from buying Wagner lately because when I do buy I buy a lot. I end up with a stack of recordings to listen to. Some get a one time listen never to be touched again others get ripped to my portable player and go with me for repeated listens.


The U.K. one is CD £21.80 + postage and there are two used ones a bit cheaper.


----------



## Ragnar

Barbebleu said:


> The U.K. one is CD £21.80 + postage and there are two used ones a bit cheaper.


Hmm I didn't see that when I looked only mp3. I'll look again. Thank you Barbebleu


----------



## Ragnar

They must’ve been snatched up, because it still says unavailable and only MP3. Unless for some reason because I’m in the States it won’t show me, but I’ve bought from Amazon UK before. Oh well I’ll keep looking. Meanwhile I finally pulled the trigger on Walkure and Götterdämerung 55 2nd cycle. Right from Testament a lot cheaper than Amazon


----------



## Barbebleu

Ragnar said:


> They must've been snatched up, because it still says unavailable and only MP3. Unless for some reason because I'm in the States it won't show me, but I've bought from Amazon UK before. Oh well I'll keep looking. Meanwhile I finally pulled the trigger on Walkure and Götterdämerung 55 2nd cycle. Right from Testament a lot cheaper than Amazon


That must be it because it's still showing for me. I'll try and post the link right to a cd version if I can.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wagner-Göt...g+Bayreuth+1957&qid=1559230598&s=music&sr=8-1

Ignore me Ragnar, it's linking to the Covent Garden Kempe '57 and not the Bayreuth one!!


----------



## Ragnar

Not a problem Barbebleu I appreciate your efforts.


----------



## Ragnar

Also just came across Tristan und Isolde Kna 1950 Orfeo sealed for $15 on eBay. Darn UPS only delivered my 58 Siegfried today the other three got delayed one town over. So hopefully tomorrow


----------



## Music Snob

Try amazon Spain, or Japan- I had the same problem with the 57 Gotterdammerung back in January- I browsed DuckDuckGo for about 2 months until it showed up on amazon Spain- from a Japanese seller! I paid about $45 for what it’s worth-but now the set is complete. Just keep searching and it may turn up.


----------



## Ragnar

Thank you Music Snob I will


----------



## Ragnar

Has anyone heard the Music and Arts Kna 57 Ring Cycle?


----------



## DarkAngel

Ragnar said:


> Has anyone heard the Music and Arts Kna 57 Ring Cycle?


MA label is 56 Knap Ring, if you want best current sound the 56 Orfeo with direct access to Bavarian Radio tapes



















If you are completely insane and money is no object you can pay a kings ransom for 57 Melodram Ring or Japan market SACD set 

















http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/product/KKC-4085?s_ssid=e4c7c5cf0b1accb18 (sold out)


----------



## wkasimer

Ragnar said:


> Has anyone heard the Music and Arts Kna 57 Ring Cycle?


I picked up the 1957 Rheingold and Siegfried on M&A when they showed up at a used CD store a few months ago. The sonics were fine, but I didn't keep either set. I really don't understand why anyone would subject themselves to the caterwauling of Aldenhoff and Kuen in Siegfried. I'd be interested, though, in the Gotterdammerung, because Windgassen is likely to be in somewhat fresher voice, having not sung the young Siegfried two days earlier.


----------



## Ragnar

I already have that M&A 1956 and the rest of my 58 should be here today. So maybe I’ll just grab the 57 Walkure for Nilsson’s Sieglinde and call it a day before I do something stupid money wise. Lol. Hope my OCD about incomplete cycles lets me move on lol


----------



## wkasimer

Ragnar said:


> I already have that M&A 1956 and the rest of my 58 should be here today. So maybe I'll just grab the 57 Walkure for Nilsson's Sieglinde and call it a day before I do something stupid money wise. Lol. Hope my OCD about incomplete cycles lets me move on lol


I'm pretty OCD about Ring cycles - I feel the need to have them all - but the Walkure is the only opera from 1957 that I've kept. In particular, Siegfried from 1958 is superior to 1957.


----------



## Barbebleu

wkasimer said:


> I'm pretty OCD about Ring cycles - I feel the need to have them all - but the Walkure is the only opera from 1957 that I've kept. In particular, Siegfried from 1958 is superior to 1957.


I'm a bit like that myself The only thing I want, I really, really want is the holy grail of Parsifal collecting - Bayreuth 1955.

I live in the vain and forlorn hope that there is a recording of it languishing somewhere in the Bavarian Radio vaults.


----------



## Ragnar

Barbebleu said:


> I'm a bit like that myself The only thing I want, I really, really want is the holy grail of Parsifal collecting - Bayreuth 1955.
> 
> I live in the vain and forlorn hope that there is a recording of it languishing somewhere in the Bavarian Radio vaults.


I hope for that myself. My biggest hope though is a pre war complete Ring or Parsifal from Furtwängler. Always hope that if the Russians took the tapes they give them back one day.


----------



## The Conte

So, what is the best all round Kna Ring?

N.


----------



## Ragnar

I received the rest of my Kna 58 Cycle today. Should be a good weekend. I took wkasimer’s cue on his own decision with 57 cycle and just bought the Walkure from 57. Figure when I want I can slip it in during 58 cycle listens as most of the cast seems to be the same in 57 and 58. Now I can focus on non Bayreuth cycles with less heard by me at least casts. As to which Kna is the best I’ve only previously had the 56 so can’t comment yet.


----------



## Itullian

Finally obtained one of these in very good condition.
Looking forward to hearing it.


----------



## wkasimer

Itullian said:


> Finally obtained one of these in very good condition.
> Looking forward to hearing it.


Enjoy - Crass is terrific in the title role.


----------



## Itullian

wkasimer said:


> Enjoy - Crass is terrific in the title role.


I remember you had said that 
Big reason I got it.


----------



## wkasimer

The Conte said:


> So, what is the best all round Kna Ring?


I would vote for 1956, although I find Paul Kuen's Mime a real trial in Siegfried. I'd put 1958 almost on par cast-wise, but 1956 has the better Alberich (Neidlinger) and Gunther (Uhde instead of Otto Wiener). If it matters to you, Vickers sings Siegmund in 1958 (Windgassen in 1956, and not very well). 1956 also features, I think, better, more passion and intensity from Kna and his orchestra.


----------



## Barbebleu

Yeah, Kuen's variations on a theme of Wagner are a real pain. How did the conductor not pull him up on his random technique during rehearsals. Just sing what's on the page for goodness sake.


----------



## Ragnar

Just finished listening to Rheingold and Walkure from Pristine. Wow. It had me so engrossed. Rose is incredible. I’ve had the La Scala and Krauss from Pristine so I shouldn’t be shocked.


----------



## Ragnar

Oops forgot to mention it was the Rome 53 under Furtwängler


----------



## Barbebleu

I've just finished listening to Lohengrin, Munich 1963. Mmm! Where to start. I realise that this is a historically important recording in so far as it is Kna's only commercially available recording of Lohengrin. But, and there are a lot of buts!, it has been one of the most difficult things to listen to that I have experienced for a long time. 

I listen to a lot of historic recordings including pre-electric and normally I can hear through hiss, extraneous background noise etc. without any problem but for some reason I can't quite fathom, this was a trial.

To start with this is a '63 live mono recording and it is one of the most dismal, poorly recorded things I have ever heard. I don't know where the microphone was placed but the echo and boom and variable placement makes every scene a struggle. Lohengrin, to avoid a tedious evening, needs good playing from the orchestra, particularly the string section, which has to carry long stretches of sonorous playing. If the orchestra are managing this on this recording, then I can't hear it. Kna's tempi sound fine but the sound is just too poor to recommend it on Kna's way with the opera alone.

Now the singing. The chorus, when you can hear it in full, sounds not bad. Bjoner (Elsa), Varnay (Ortrud), Nöcker (Telramund) and Metternich (Herald) are all adequate given the sound quality. Bohme (Heinrich) is struggling. But the complete letdown is Hopf (Lohengrin). He is simply dreadful. There are huge passages where he sings for an eternity completely flat. Ghastly. It sounds like he starts the first note a semitone out and regardless of what's happening in the pit on he howls on, still a semitone out. Another reviewer kindly suggested his vibrato was so uncentered that it made him sound flat. Not to my poor ears. For long periods he is just unlistenable but, again with the buts, sometimes he gets it spot on and sings perfectly in tune. It's almost as if he suddenly heard the orchestra again and thought, ' oh, that's what I'm supposed to be singing!'

Sadly, not often enough. 

If you've never heard this recording save yourself three plus hours you'll never get back.

I'm too depressed for words and it's kind of soured me for listening to any more old historic 'valuable' documents in the near future.

From now on I'll stick to Kempe, Kubelik and Sawallisch for my Lohengrin fix!:lol:


----------



## Itullian

The von Matacic is a good live Lohengrin and Cluytens is pretty good too.
Some here like the live Keilberth too, me, not so much.
I also like the Abbado and Solti recordings.
Even Karajan has a lot worth hearing.

Cheer up,Barbebleu, don't lose heart.
We all get a lemon once in awhile.


----------



## Barbebleu

I’m sure I’ll bounce back. Just started on Tannhäuser, Perugia 1972. Sawallisch, Kollo and Janowitz. So far, so good.


----------



## wkasimer

Barbebleu said:


> I've just finished listening to Lohengrin, Munich 1963.
> (snip)
> But the complete letdown is Hopf (Lohengrin). He is simply dreadful.


Unsurprising, and predictable. Hopf was actually not a bad singer - I have several fine recordings of him singing Italian opera - Otello and Andrea Chenier - in German, and he does quite well in these. He was also a fine Emperor in FroSch. But Lohengrin would seem a terrible fit for his beefy, baritonal sound. Hard to undertand why anyone, even Kna, would think of casting him in a role that really requires lyricism.


----------



## Barbebleu

Tannhäuser, Perugia 1972. Faith restored!!:lol:


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> The von Matacic is a good live Lohengrin and Cluytens is pretty good too.
> Some here like the live Keilberth too, me, not so much.
> I also like the Abbado and Solti recordings.
> Even Karajan has a lot worth hearing.
> 
> Cheer up,Barbebleu, don't lose heart.
> We all get a lemon once in awhile.


Don't forget the 65 Bohm on Orfeo label, we mentioned this long ago here but it is top shelf material in very good live sound!

Martti Talvela (King Henry), Jess Thomas (Lohengrin), Claire Watson (Elsa), Walter Berry (Telramund), Christa Ludwig (Ortrud), Eberhard Waechter (Herald)










Ortrud (Ludwig supremely evil) exaults her pagan powers during her brief moment of victory, before the reverent swan knight calls upon the divine power of the holy grail to break the evil spell, Bohm is master of the wagner soundscape......






++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Excuse the historical departure but I have this soon to be released blu ray in my Presto UK buy basket, very strong cast with Beczala an excellent swan knight (destroys KFV) plus Harteros & Waltraud Meier! Quasi reggie production but not too silly, it will be mine!


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> Don't forget the 65 Bohm on Orfeo label, we mentioned this long ago here but it is top shelf material in very good live sound!
> 
> Martti Talvela (King Henry), Jess Thomas (Lohengrin), Claire Watson (Elsa), Walter Berry (Telramund), Christa Ludwig (Ortrud), Eberhard Waechter (Herald)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ortrud (Ludwig supremely evil) exaults her pagan powers during her brief moment of victory, before the reverent swan knight calls upon the divine power of the holy grail to break the evil spell, Bohm is master of the wagner soundscape......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> 
> Excuse the historical departure but I have this soon to be released blu ray in my Presto UK buy basket, very strong cast with Beczala an excellent swan knight (destroys KFV) plus Harteros & Waltraud Meier! Quasi reggie production but not too silly, it will be mine!


I've watched this production. It's not bad at all. Quite nice blue tones. Reminiscent of Wieland's fifties minimalist sets. A few weird ideas like the power station pylons and the fairy wings but well sung by the principals. Beczala easily better than Vogt, more heft in his voice.


----------



## Barbebleu

Finished listening to Die Walküre, New York Met 1969. Karajan, Nilsson, Vickers, Adam, Crespin, Talvela. Spellbinding performance. Everyone is in superb form. I don’t think I’ve heard Adam better. Karajan conducts a dream. Quite one of the best Walküres I’ve ever heard.


----------



## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> Finished listening to Die Walküre, New York Met 1969. Karajan, Nilsson, Vickers, Adam, Crespin, Talvela. Spellbinding performance. Everyone is in superb form. I don't think I've heard Adam better. Karajan conducts a dream. Quite one of the best Walküres I've ever heard.


Off my radar screen............

Some quick research, after Karajan finished recording DG Ring in 1967-69 he planned to conduct & direct a MET Ring but only finished first two operas and never returned to MET again, your 69 Walkure is his swan song at MET, looks like it is in new Nilsson Live boxset.........


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> Off my radar screen............
> 
> Some quick research, after Karajan finished recording DG Ring in 1967-69 he planned to conduct & direct a MET Ring but only finished first two operas and never returned to MET again, your 69 Walkure is his swan song at MET, looks like it is in new Nilsson Live boxset.........


You are absolutely right. In my previous post I see I omitted to mention Josephine Veasey as Fricka. Consider that oversight corrected. Also I do have the Rheingold from 22 February but I haven't listened to it yet. I'll try to get to it in the next couple of days.


----------



## Barbebleu

Das Rheingold, 22 February 1969

Wotan	Theo Adam
Donner	Sherrill Milnes
Froh Donald Grobe
Loge Gerhard Stolze
Fasolt	Martti Talvela
Fafner	Karl Ridderbusch
Alberich	Zoltán Kelemen
Mime	Andrea Velis
Fricka	Anna Reynolds
Freia Simone Mangelsdorff
Erda Lili Chookasian
Woglinde	Liselotte Rebmann
Wellgunde	Edda Moser
Floßhilde	Anna Reynolds
Shirley Love [scene 4]

Absolutely brilliant performance. Everyone is never less than fabulous and Adam is on terrific form as Wotan. But my three stars are Kelemen, Karajan and Stolze. So many moments when I could feel the hairs on the neck rising but an absolute stand-out moment is the scene where Alberich is piling up the gold after his capture by Wotan and Loge. The power that Karajan generates with a relentless pulse on the basses that never increases in volume but sounds like it is, is nothing short of astonishing. What a different creature Karajan was in the theatre.

Kelemen gives Alberich real menace and venom as well as nobility. When he is summoning the Nibelungs to bring the gold to ransom him he doesn't let them forget that even in his straitened circumstances he is still Lord of the Ring, the gold wielder and still has power over them. It's quite the best that I've ever heard this scene done.

There are so many great moments, Milnes singing Heda, Hedo etc., Loge's narration, Erda's warning. I know Stolze has his detractors but his tone has never bothered me and his acting ability is second to none. Karajan keeps an iron grip on pace and fluidity and of course there his famed lightness of touch. But this is no chamber version of Wagner,it's a real full-blooded, taut, energetic piece of theatre.

There are just so many memorable moments and it's invidious to single some out at the expense of others. I can't remember hearing such commitment from a complete ensemble like this.

No wonder the audience cheered it to the rafters at the end.

If you're a fan like me, hear this version if at all possible!

Btw, if you're wondering why Shirley Love sings Flosshilde in scene 4, it's because Josephine Veasey was supposed to sing Fricka but cancelled so Anna Reynolds stepped in. However as you know Fricka is on stage at the end when the Rhinemaidens are imploring Wotan to return the ring so in stepped Shirley to save the day.


----------



## DarkAngel

https://www.pristineclassical.com/products/paco160

Another amazing new restoration from Rose, 40 MET Leinsdorf radio broadcast of Lohengrin, incredible detail and clarity fully extended with clean crescendo, the cast goes from strength to strength, this is easily the best Lohengrin I have heard by Melchior

The HD sound sample in link features "in fernem land" as the swan knight reveals his origin and divine mission, Melchior is more lyric here than I have heard before and listen to those ringing high notes (after 3hrs of performance), what a vocal range fully rendered in this great remaster, this is beyond essential......

I think I will bite the bullet and finally subscibe to Pristine Streaming to access entire catalog, I like their music player - for the cost of buying a couple operas (like above) I can get annual access to entire HD catalog


----------



## Bill H.

All--asking for anyone so inclined to give feedback on a historical remix I've been working on more persistently this year. While I've linked to it before in this thread, I'm hoping this latest incarnation will be a bit more accessible sound-wise. This is the 1936 Met "Götterdämmerung", with Melchior as Siegfried and Marjorie Lawrence as Brünnhilde, conducted by Artur Bodanzky. For those of you familiar with Sony's Wagner at the Met Box, this is the source material--I've never heard of any existing alternate sources to the scratchy, worn transcription disks that were used in that release, and perhaps others (like the Naxos) as well. For me, the Sony release is nearly unlistenable, even to ears that are used to recordings from the 78 rpm era, so I did some tinkering with it.

It's now to the point where I'm reasonably happy with an _average_ noise reduction solution across the entire opera--I don't have the diligence to redo it for each ~4 min disk side, let alone individual passages with additional damage noise, but I think this does a reasonable job overall, even if you can still hear the transitions between disks. A mild amount of ambiance to the acoustic is also there, to spread out the mono sound just a bit, and to give more body to it I've added a custom loudness contour to beef up the bottom end and just a bit on the treble. There's very little signal above 5kHz in this recording anyway, so in principle it'll never sound much better than an AM radio band, but I tried. Hopefully these changes don't tire the ear with extended listening, but I've heard this so many times that I'd rather someone else give it a whirl to see if there's any value added to it. I'm grateful for any feedback (backchannel if you prefer) and any concrete suggestions for further changes will definitely be considered. Thanks again. Here's the download link--this is a zip of FLAC audio files, about 700 MB total in size. https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByTWd_3f2RpSNlRLQVBQdHl1eHM


----------



## Barbebleu

Bill H. said:


> All--asking for anyone so inclined to give feedback on a historical remix I've been working on more persistently this year. While I've linked to it before in this thread, I'm hoping this latest incarnation will be a bit more accessible sound-wise. This is the 1936 Met "Götterdämmerung", with Melchior as Siegfried and Marjorie Lawrence as Brünnhilde, conducted by Artur Bodanzky. For those of you familiar with Sony's Wagner at the Met Box, this is the source material--I've never heard of any existing alternate sources to the scratchy, worn transcription disks that were used in that release, and perhaps others (like the Naxos) as well. For me, the Sony release is nearly unlistenable, even to ears that are used to recordings from the 78 rpm era, so I did some tinkering with it.
> 
> It's now to the point where I'm reasonably happy with an _average_ noise reduction solution across the entire opera--I don't have the diligence to redo it for each ~4 min disk side, let alone individual passages with additional damage noise, but I think this does a reasonable job overall, even if you can still hear the transitions between disks. A mild amount of ambiance to the acoustic is also there, to spread out the mono sound just a bit, and to give more body to it I've added a custom loudness contour to beef up the bottom end and just a bit on the treble. There's very little signal above 5kHz in this recording anyway, so in principle it'll never sound much better than an AM radio band, but I tried. Hopefully these changes don't tire the ear with extended listening, but I've heard this so many times that I'd rather someone else give it a whirl to see if there's any value added to it. I'm grateful for any feedback (backchannel if you prefer) and any concrete suggestions for further changes will definitely be considered. Thanks again. Here's the download link--this is a zip of FLAC audio files, about 700 MB total in size. https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByTWd_3f2RpSNlRLQVBQdHl1eHM
> View attachment 121141
> View attachment 121142


As always Bill H, much thanks for this. I have the Met box but I'm happy to give this a whirl.


----------



## Woodduck

Just by the way, for all fellow sticklers, the correct title of the opera is "Gotterdammerung," not "Die Gotterdammerung," as on the Archipel box. (Handel's "Messiah" - not "The Messiah" - is a similar case.)


----------



## Tsaraslondon

Woodduck said:


> Just by the way, for all fellow sticklers, the correct title of the opera is "Gotterdammerung," not "Die Gotterdammerung," as on the Archipel box. (Handel's "Messiah" - not "The Messiah" - is a similar case.)


And it's *Pagliacci*, not "I Pagliacci".


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## Barbebleu

And it's pronounced Vagner, not Wagner!

And Mote-zart, not Moe-zart.

I could go on!! But I won't.:tiphat:


----------



## amfortas

Woodduck said:


> Just by the way, for all fellow sticklers, the correct title of the opera is "Gotterdammerung," not "Die Gotterdammerung."


And it's _Siegfried_, not _Die Siegfried_.

Unless it's a bad English translation of Wagner's early draft, _Siegfried's Tod_.


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## amfortas

I made a duplicate post, but can't delete it without at least fifteen letters.

Looks like that'll do it.


----------



## wkasimer

Tsaraslondon said:


> And it's *Pagliacci*, not "I Pagliacci".


And it's "Winterreise", not "Die Winterreise". I'm astonished at how often recordings are issued with the definite article in the title.


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## Woodduck

It's so satisfying to be collectively correct. We get to fuse our little selves into one great, transcendental Ego.


----------



## howlingfantods

amfortas said:


> And it's _Siegfried_, not _Die Siegfried_.
> 
> Unless it's a bad English translation of Wagner's early draft, _Siegfried's Tod_.


Strictly speaking, "Siegfried's Tod" was an early title for what became "Gotterdammerung", not what became "Siegfried".


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## Barbebleu

Isn't pedantry a joy? :lol:xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## Woodduck

Barbebleu said:


> Isn't pedantry a joy? :lol:xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


It is. And, lucky for us, there is no end to the need for correction.


----------



## Barbebleu

Woodduck said:


> It is. And, lucky for us, there is no end to the need for correction.


I had to read your post carefully to ensure that it was grammatically correct and required no correction. It am!


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## rw181383

For those interested, the Testament Keilberth Ring is back in stock at Berkshire: https://broinc.com/media/cd/cd-164643/


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## Itullian

rw181383 said:


> For those interested, the Testament Keilberth Ring is back in stock at Berkshire: https://broinc.com/media/cd/cd-164643/


$98 is a super price.


----------



## Music Snob

Greetings friends- been awhile since I posted. I'll make it quick.

I did a side by side comparison of the Kna 56 Ring between the Orfeo and the Music and Arts versions. To my surprise the Music and Arts does have the better sound. I was told from reading the on the "World Wide Web" that the Orfeo had better sound because it came from the original tapes... well my ears told me differently. Maybe the kind folks at Music and Arts tweaked it a little bit, but in my OCD I did a side by side. If the two are practically identical in some spots, in others M&A is better...i.e. Wotan's Abeschied. 

Second, does anyone know where can find the 1998 Thielemann Berlin Parsifal? I read a good thing about the Karfreitagzauber musik and couldn't find it anywhere. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Any insights on Thielemann as a conductor? I'm new to listening to him. I know he isn't exactly working with the greatest singers of all time....


----------



## nospoonboy

Does anyone know what the difference of the "mono" download from Pristine's remastering of Furtwangler's Die Walküre from 1954 here: https://www.pristineclassical.com/products/paco100 is from the other incarnations?
I know how the ambient stereo versions are different (and I don't really care for the 'effect'). 
But I have the Warner SACD remaster and was wondering how different the Pristine mono remaster might compare.


----------



## nospoonboy

I just finished reading all 284 pages of this thread and want to thank everyone for sharing their wondering insights and suggestions. I have placed a rather large order with Opera Depot (being that they are discontinuing their CD sales - everything is going to be download only after 8/15). 
You've steered me in some directions that I hadn't really explored before and found some gems! '76 Boulez Ring and '52 Knapp Parsifal in particular! Not to mention finding out the mystery of the missing '53 Keilberth Siegfried Act I. I managed to track down someone who had the Allegro edition on vinyl and have heard the "real" Keilberth '53.


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## NightHawk

I know this is a Wagner discussion, but Hotter's _WINTEREISE_ is immortal.


----------



## Barbebleu

nospoonboy said:


> I just finished reading all 284 pages of this thread and want to thank everyone for sharing their wondering insights and suggestions. I have placed a rather large order with Opera Depot (being that they are discontinuing their CD sales - everything is going to be download only after 8/15).
> You've steered me in some directions that I hadn't really explored before and found some gems! '76 Boulez Ring and '52 Knapp Parsifal in particular! Not to mention finding out the mystery of the missing '53 Keilberth Siegfried Act I. I managed to track down someone who had the Allegro edition on vinyl and have heard the "real" Keilberth '53.


Apparently someone with the handle Angelparsifal has posted the "real" Keilberth Act 1 on YouTube. I have listened to it and while Windgassen's timing is better, the recording quality is pretty poor at best and there are jumps and level changes all over the place. Paul Kuen is his usual approximate self when it comes to singing the notes that Wagner actually wrote. All in all I wouldn't say that we are missing anything too drastic if we don't have the missing Act 1 in our collections unless someone comes up with a really good version!!


----------



## amfortas

Listened to about half the Carlos Kleiber 1976 Bayreuth _Tristan_, then went ahead and ordered it from Opera Depot, while they're still doing their half-off goodbye-to-CDs sale.

I may have to go back for more!


----------



## nospoonboy

Barbebleu said:


> Apparently someone with the handle Angelparsifal has posted the "real" Keilberth Act 1 on YouTube. I have listened to it and while Windgassen's timing is better, the recording quality is pretty poor at best and there are jumps and level changes all over the place. Paul Kuen is his usual approximate self when it comes to singing the notes that Wagner actually wrote. All in all I wouldn't say that *we are missing anything too drastic* if we don't have the missing Act 1 in our collections unless someone comes up with a really good version!!


I agree. I was not bowled over...however, missing pieces of a puzzle drive me crazy.  I understand that the original Allegro release was a pirated copy of a broadcast check and not from the tapes (unlike the Golden Melodram releases). But I'll take what I can get. My primary point was that I never would have navigated these issues if not for this wonderful forum that has inspired me to look at some releases I would not have been inclined to. For example, I just received the Kempe Ring '60 on GM and the Kempe Ring '62 on Myto the other day and have been very much enjoying them. 50' and 60's Bayreuth recordings are wonders to discover!


----------



## nospoonboy

amfortas said:


> Listened to about half the Carlos Kleiber 1976 Bayreuth _Tristan_, then went ahead and ordered it from Opera Depot, while they're still doing their half-off goodbye-to-CDs sale.
> 
> I may have to go back for more!


I feel fortunate because prior to reading this forum I was unaware of Opera Depot and when I looked into the '76 Boulez Ring cycle I still had time to snatch up some of the goodies. I made two fairly large orders.


----------



## Barbebleu

nospoonboy said:


> I feel fortunate because prior to reading this forum I was unaware of Opera Depot and when I looked into the '76 Boulez Ring cycle I still had time to snatch up some of the goodies. I made two fairly large orders.


Glad we have been of help. A lot of my Wagner stuff has been courtesy of Andrew at Opera Depot. A fabulous resource for us opera fans.


----------



## gardibolt

Not historical, but one of the recent Gramophone podcasts was raving about the Hong Kong Ring on Naxos. Anyone familiar with this?


----------



## wkasimer

gardibolt said:


> Not historical, but one of the recent Gramophone podcasts was raving about the Hong Kong Ring on Naxos. Anyone familiar with this?


Yes. Worth hearing mostly for Matthias Goerne's Wotan and Simon O'Neill's young Siegfried. Otherwise pretty forgettable.


----------



## nospoonboy

I found an old reference to a Pristine release of the famous Furtwangler 1937 Covent Garden Walkure Act 3...however, this is not listed on the Pristine website.
Does anyone have any information on this? Did Rose discontinue offering it after the site was rebuilt (post-crash)???


----------



## howlingfantods

nospoonboy said:


> I found an old reference to a Pristine release of the famous Furtwangler 1937 Covent Garden Walkure Act 3...however, this is not listed on the Pristine website.
> Does anyone have any information on this? Did Rose discontinue offering it after the site was rebuilt (post-crash)???


I don't believe this ever existed, and I'm fairly sure I would have noticed if Pristine released this. I love those 1937 CG Walkure and Gotterdammerung extracts and I'm always looking at Pristine to see if they've remastered my favorites.


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## gardibolt

You could always email Andrew Rose and ask. He's pretty good about responding to questions.


----------



## nospoonboy

gardibolt said:


> You could always email Andrew Rose and ask. He's pretty good about responding to questions.


I did  However, he is on vacation for another few weeks and I thought I would see if any on the forum heard about this release.

BTW, this was the reference I saw posted by "Wagner Fan": https://humanities.music.composers.wagner.narkive.com/zqWv2sET/flagstad-on-pristine-classical


----------



## annaw

I'm not very used to the mono sound of many old recordings, but I really want to get used to that, because I feel I'm missing out on many great very performances otherwise. I listened to Knappertsbusch's '51 Parsifal I and II acts. I discovered that the sound is probably the main thing that keeps me from deeply appreciating it - for example, the balance between the orchestra and the singers during some parts of the opera sounds a bit weird to me (orchestra sounds too quiet compared to the singers, but I suspect this is just the fact that I'm not used to the sound and it's not an actual imbalance). When I focus on the singers, then I understand how great the singing itself is, but despite that, I'm not really able to like the recording in overall (at this point I'd definitely prefer Kna's '64 over the '51 recording just becuase of the sound). Do you have any recommendations how to get used to the sound or is it just about listening to more mono recordings?


----------



## Barbebleu

Personally I feel you just have to persevere with the old recordings. The more of them you listen to then the less you will hear their shortcomings and be able to focus on the singing and orchestral playing. That's kind of how it worked for me but it may not work for you and the less than pristine sound may be a hurdle too high! Good luck with your endeavours.


----------



## Itullian

annaw,

Mono recordings vary quite a bit in sound quality.
Probably best to check the recording out first, like on youtube 
or Presto Classical.
That will give you an idea of the sound.
You can also ask on this thread.
Most of us are familiar with the Wagner recordings.
We're always willing to help.


----------



## wkasimer

annaw said:


> Do you have any recommendations how to get used to the sound or is it just about listening to more mono recordings?


Spend some time listening to acoustically recorded 78's from the first quarter of the century. Once you've listened to those for a few hours, monaural recordings from the 1950's will seem like state-of-the-art technology.


----------



## DavidA

Barbebleu said:


> Personally I feel you just have to persevere with the old recordings. The more of them you listen to then the less you will hear their shortcomings and be able to focus on the singing and *orchestral playing*. That's kind of how it worked for me but it may not work for you and the less than pristine sound may be a hurdle too high! Good luck with your endeavours.


Unfortunately orchestral playing on the old recordings is generally inferior to what it is today. The technical standards of playing have gone through the roof.


----------



## annaw

wkasimer said:


> Spend some time listening to acoustically recorded 78's from the first quarter of the century. Once you've listened to those for a few hours, monaural recordings from the 1950's will seem like state-of-the-art technology.





Itullian said:


> Mono recordings vary quite a bit in sound quality.
> Probably best to check the recording out first, like on youtube
> or Presto Classical.
> That will give you an idea of the sound.
> You can also ask on this thread.
> Most of us are familiar with the Wagner recordings.
> We're always willing to help.





 Barbebleu said:


> Personally I feel you just have to persevere with the old recordings. The more of them you listen to then the less you will hear their shortcomings and be able to focus on the singing and orchestral playing. That's kind of how it worked for me but it may not work for you and the less than pristine sound may be a hurdle too high! Good luck with your endeavours.


Thank you all for your answers and advice! I think I will just listen to the recordings and I'll try to focus more on the singing, dramatic interpretation and less on the sound quality. I think I will eventually start liking it  !


----------



## Itullian

Looks like zyx is at it again.
A Ring combining Furtwangler and Keilberth.
I think this was released previously in another form.
Out early September.


----------



## Barbebleu

DavidA said:


> Unfortunately orchestral playing on the old recordings is generally inferior to what it is today. The technical standards of playing have gone through the roof.


Not sure that Mahler or Strauss would have tolerated inferior playing when they were at the helm.


----------



## amfortas

Itullian said:


> Looks like zyx is at it again.
> A Ring combining Furtwangler and Keilberth.
> I think this was released previously in another form.
> Out early September.


Looks like the same set I've got: Keilberth 52 live _Rheingold_, _Götterdämmerung_, 53 _Siegfried_; Fürtwangler 54 studio _Walküre_.

Nicer cover, though.


----------



## DarkAngel

annaw said:


> *I'm not very used to the mono sound of many old recordings*, but I really want to get used to that, because I feel I'm missing out on many great very performances otherwise. I listened to Knappertsbusch's '51 Parsifal I and II acts. I discovered that the sound is probably the main thing that keeps me from deeply appreciating it - for example, the balance between the orchestra and the singers during some parts of the opera sounds a bit weird to me *(orchestra sounds too quiet compared to the singers, but I suspect this is just the fact that I'm not used to the sound and it's not an actual imbalance)*. When I focus on the singers, then I understand how great the singing itself is, but despite that, I'm not really able to like the recording in overall (at this point I'd definitely prefer Kna's '64 over the '51 recording just becuase of the sound). Do you have any recommendations how to get used to the sound or is it just about listening to more mono recordings?


Personally I almost always listen to older mono recordings with headphones vs main stereo, the compromised sound is presented in a more forgiving fashion making it easier to enjoy for me (although I find many of the 1950s Bayreuth mono recordings sound so good I play them on main stereo)

Also the famous mono Wagner recordings at Bayreuth from 1950s and early 1960s do actually have smaller size orchestra sound (partially covered orchestra pit) with greater focus on singers voice by design, the most jarring example is take any 1950s Bayreuth Ring and compare to studio Solti Ring and the Solti orchestra sounds huge, overwhelming by comparison......have to adjust to different styles and enjoy both


----------



## Barbebleu

Apropos my previous post I could say the same about Furtwangler, Knappertsbusch, Toscannini, Mengleberg et al! I don't think it's so much a case of inferior playing as inferior recording techniques.


----------



## DavidA

Barbebleu said:


> Not sure that Mahler or Strauss would have tolerated inferior playing when they were at the helm.


Just a fact mate. The technical standard of playing today of orchestras in general is far superior than in the past.


----------



## DavidA

Barbebleu said:


> Apropos my previous post I could say the same about Furtwangler, Knappertsbusch, Toscannini, Mengleberg et al! I don't think it's so much a case of inferior playing as inferior recording techniques.


Toscanini of course improved the standard of orchestral playing but Kna? If he rehearsed once it was too much for him. And the standard of actual playing under Furtwangler was nothing to write home about. I remember the sensation the old Philarmonia recordings created under Karajan but that would be taken for granted now the degree of technical excellence.


----------



## annaw

DarkAngel said:


> Personally I almost always listen to older mono recordings with headphones vs main stereo, the compromised sound is presented in a more forgiving fashion making it easier to enjoy for me (although I find many of the 1950s Bayreuth mono recordings sound so good I play them on main stereo)
> 
> *Also the famous mono Wagner recordings at Bayreuth from 1950s and early 1960s do actually have smaller size orchestra sound* (partially covered orchestra pit) with greater focus on singers voice by design, the most jarring example is take any 1950s Bayreuth Ring and compare to studio Solti Ring and the Solti orchestra sounds huge, overwhelming by comparison......have to adjust to different styles and enjoy both


That explains a lot! I've now listened to some excerpts from other Bayreuth recordings and I really liked for example Cluyten's Lohengrin - the singing is just so powerful! It was also very interesting to hear how differently (in a good way) the same opera can be sung and interpreted. I really love the overwhelming orchestral sound of stereo recordings of Wagner's operas, but I think you are right that it's a lot about appreciating different styles of orchestral playing and singing.


----------



## Barbebleu

DavidA said:


> Just a fact mate. The technical standard of playing today of orchestras in general is far superior than in the past.


How old are you to have heard orchestras playing under Mahler or Richard Strauss? 
That's the only feasible way you can make such a sweeping statement. Otherwise it's pure conjecture.


----------



## DavidA

Barbebleu said:


> How old are you to have heard orchestras playing under Mahler or Richard Strauss?
> That's the only feasible way you can make such a sweeping statement. Otherwise it's pure conjecture.


So you are in the same position then? I have heard the playing under Kna and Furtwangler on recordings and can assure you that modern players are technically much superior. It is obvious from what we hear in competitions and from the playing of youth orchestras that the technical standard of playing of young people is vastly superior to what is was when I was a young man. That is fact not conjecture, available to anyone with hearing. Of course, the technical excellence will filter upwards.


----------



## annaw

Comparing orchestras and opera recordings from so different eras feels subjective to me. Just better recording quality itself can make the orchestral playing sound better (at least in my case), but that doesn’t mean the playing itself is in reality better. Also, what could have caused such a huge development in orchestral playing, especially considering that all the conductors mentioned earlier are very highly appreciated?

I actually have one more question regarding the recordings. What are some good historical Wagner recordings you’d recommend to listen first (I don’t have a huge difference which operas)?


----------



## DarkAngel

annaw said:


> Comparing orchestras and opera recordings from so different eras feels subjective to me. Just better recording quality itself can make the orchestral playing sound better (at least in my case), but that doesn't mean the playing itself is in reality better. Also, what could have caused such a huge development in orchestral playing, especially considering that all the conductors mentioned earlier are very highly appreciated?
> 
> *I actually have one more question regarding the recordings. What are some good historical Wagner recordings you'd recommend to listen first (I don't have a huge difference which operas)?*


Sooner or later you must own these, they are bedrock essential RW in very good sound......


----------



## nospoonboy

Is anyone familiar with the SACD incarnation of the Knappertsbusch '57 Ring that was released on King. It is unclear what the source was for this transfer and I was wondering if anyone had heard anything about this:

https://tower.jp/item/4355780/ワーグナー：-楽劇4部作「ニーベルングの指環」全曲-(バイロイト1957)＜完全限定プレス＞


----------



## DarkAngel

nospoonboy said:


> Is anyone familiar with the SACD incarnation of the Knappertsbusch '57 Ring that was released on King. It is unclear what the source was for this transfer and I was wondering if anyone had heard anything about this:


Those Japan audiophiles love SACD of anything which goes for a hefty premium over CD price, I have not heard this one (there are other Knap Wagner sets also released by King Records in Japan)

From production notes on Tower Japan website appears to come from remaster of an Italian record companies "tape copy" of 57 Bavarian Radio broadcast from Bayreuth festival........BR has some type of agreement with German Orfeo label for Bayreuth broadcasts and they have direct access to the original BR master tapes, Orfeo has released 56 Ring boxset but not for 57 Ring

Still as has been mentioned in this thread the Walhall CD releases of 57 Ring has the best mono sound quality of any of the 1950s Rings (not counting stereo 55 Ring originally by Decca now Testament label) excellent sound for that era really, unfortunately some of these are now hard to find like 57 Gotterdammerung....















56 Ring


----------



## Barbebleu

DavidA said:


> So you are in the same position then? I have heard the playing under Kna and Furtwangler on recordings and can assure you that modern players are technically much superior. It is obvious from what we hear in competitions and from the playing of youth orchestras that the technical standard of playing of young people is vastly superior to what is was when I was a young man. That is fact not conjecture, available to anyone with hearing. Of course, the technical excellence will filter upwards.


It follows then that seventeenth and eighteenth century orchestras must have been absolutely appalling compared to today's technical wizards. What a dreadful thought. Glad I wasn't around to hear Bach and Mozart in their heyday. It would have put me off their music for life.

I'm still not convinced but we shall agree to differ on this. As we do on most things! :lol:


----------



## Woodduck

Barbebleu said:


> It follows then that seventeenth and eighteenth century orchestras must have been absolutely appalling compared to today's technical wizards. What a dreadful thought. Glad I wasn't around to hear Bach and Mozart in their heyday. It would have put me off their music for life.
> 
> I'm still not convinced but we shall agree to differ on this. As we do on most things! :lol:


My impression is that there are more ensembles playing at a higher level of technical excellence than there were fifty years ago, but that the top orchestras have always been superb. We have only to look at the difficulty of the music written by composers such as Wagner, Mahler and Strauss to see that they expected no less, and to listen to recordings from the 1950s and '60s to hear first-class orchestral playing.

Citing recordings by particular conductors can be deceiving; conductors such as Furtwangler and Knappertsbusch valued spontaneity and inspiration in performance, and the inevitable imprecision that occasionally resulted was not only unimportant but sometimes even part of the expressive effect, much as the separation of the hands in the attack of old-school pianists was. Clinical precision can be the enemy of feeling, militating against the sense that music is made by human beings in communication with each other.


----------



## OperaChic

annaw said:


> I actually have one more question regarding the recordings. What are some good historical Wagner recordings you'd recommend to listen first (I don't have a huge difference which operas)?


Everyone's tolerance of poor recording quality no doubt varies, but for myself I've discovered that when listening to recordings made in the first half of the 20th century, my ears have an amazing ability to adjust and filter out surface noise, background noise, coughing and every other superfluous sound when I'm focused on the music, the story, the characters and the performance. So what at first comes across as intolerable, I'm barely even conscious of after the first several minutes of intensive listening. And expectations no doubt have to be adjusted; if you are expecting to hear every bit of orchestral detail in the score, every timbre and each individual instrument, you are going to be disappointed. However what you _can_ pick up on is the dramatic aim of the orchestra under the conductor. How well the orchestra comes across as a participant in the drama through its ability build suspense by phrasing and creating an underlying pulse, or in the way the accompaniment provides an attack or accent at just the right moment to effectively communicate an event unfolding on stage.

This whole thread is a treasure trove of great recordings and worthwhile recommendations. Anything by Furtwangler is usually revelatory. Knappertsbuch is a true master, especially in Parsifal, Tristan und Isolde and Meistersinger. And I would encourage everyone to listen to Karajan's 1952 recording of Tristan at the Bayreuth festival at least once to hear a performance unrivaled in raw dramatic intensity.


----------



## wkasimer

annaw said:


> I actually have one more question regarding the recordings. What are some good historical Wagner recordings you'd recommend to listen first (I don't have a huge difference which operas)?


How are you defining "historical"? For some people, "historical" means anything before the digital era began around 1980. For others, it means anything pre-stereo.


----------



## Itullian

Here are a few that I think are worth hearing and a good start imo.
Great performances, pretty good mono.




































This one is stereo.

Sometimes you can find the same recordings on a different label cheaper than Orfeo, but Orfeo has the better sound and really nice packaging with pictures, etc.

Always check the year of the performance, the place it was performed and who the conductor is to make sure it's the same recording.


----------



## DavidA

Barbebleu said:


> It follows then that seventeenth and eighteenth century orchestras must have been absolutely appalling compared to today's technical wizards. What a dreadful thought. Glad I wasn't around to hear Bach and Mozart in their heyday. It would have put me off their music for life.
> 
> I'm still not convinced but we shall agree to differ on this. As we do on most things! :lol:


They were appalling compared with modern day performances, especially as many of them were amateurs and had to perform new works with little rehearsal. The problem is we cannot live in a bubble where we think that the old days were some golden age. of course there was a golden age of composing of which Bach and Mozart were a part but don't forget they were the creme de la creme of genius. The ordinary run of the mill players would technically not have been a patch on todays. Like everything else, the general level if musical technique is advancing. But dream on of the good old days!


----------



## Barbebleu

OperaChic said:


> Everyone's tolerance of poor recording quality no doubt varies, but for myself I've discovered that when listening to recordings made in the first half of the 20th century, my ear has an amazing ability to adjust and filter out surface noise, background noise, coughing and every other superfluous sound when I'm focused on the music, the story, the characters and the performance. So what at first comes across as intolerable, I'm barely even conscious of after the first several minutes of intensive listening. And expectations no doubt have to be adjusted; if you are expecting to hear every bit of orchestral detail in the score, every timbre and every instrument you are going to no doubt be disappointed. However what you _can_ pick up on is the dramatic aim of the orchestra under the conductor. How well the orchestra comes across as a participant in the drama through its ability build suspense by phrasing and creating an underlying pulse, or in the way the accompaniment provides an attack or accent at just the right moment to effectively communicate an event unfolding on stage.
> 
> This whole thread is a treasure trove of great recordings and worthwhile recommendations. Anything by Furtwangler is usually revelatory. Knappertsbuch is a true master, especially in Parsifal, Tristan und Isolde and Meistersinger. And I would encourage everyone to listen to Karajan's 1952 recording of Tristan and the Bayreuth festival at least once to hear a performance unrivaled in raw dramatic intensity.


Like you I've listened to so much pre-electric stuff that I no longer hear the poor quality of recording and am able to concentrate on the music.


----------



## Itullian

Barbebleu said:


> Like you I've listened to so much pre-electric stuff that I no longer hear the poor quality of recording and am able to concentrate on the music.


Within reason. 
I passed on Konwitchny's Ring.
And also some Meistersinger recordings.
I find the Bayreuth recordings to be pretty good mostly.


----------



## Woodduck

DavidA said:


> Like everything else, the general level if musical technique is advancing.


Tell us more about the improvement in everything else.


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## Spy Car

wkasimer said:


> How are you defining "historical"? For some people, "historical" means anything before the digital era began around 1980. For others, it means anything pre-stereo.


If we can stretch "historical" to 1980--which does seem like a stretch to me--I'd lobby strongly for Rafael Kubelik's 1980 recording of Parsifal on Arts Archives.

This recording has decidedly "modern" stereo sound, great conducting, and a very good cast (especially Kurt Möll as Gurnemanz).

This relatively new Wagnerian found this recording was the perfect gateway into Wagner's greatest masterpiece. In fact, this intoxicating/transcendent work by Richard Wagner has moved into the number one position of all the music I've ever encountered in my lifetime as a lover of great music. So moving. So beautiful.

Form being one of the uninitiated, I feel Kubelik's recording opened the door to earlier recordings--from the many outstanding versions of Parsifal by the master, Hans Knappersbush--to other recordings going all the way back to Karl Muck.

Be forewarned, one Parsifal get inside you, it may prove addictive. That is certainly true in my case. If you are hooked 50s Mono will hardly be a stumbling block, at least it isn't for me.

I would (did) start the journey with Kubelik, knowing that it may only the first step into a very deep pool.

Bill


----------



## annaw

wkasimer said:


> How are you defining "historical"? For some people, "historical" means anything before the digital era began around 1980. For others, it means anything pre-stereo.


I was more thinking about pre-stereo recordings, but all recommendations are very welcome. I've really enjoyed the older stereo recordings (like Sawallisch '62 Lohengrin) from Bayreuth I've listened to.


----------



## annaw

Itullian said:


> Here are a few that I think are worth hearing and a good start imo.
> Great performances, pretty good mono.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This one is stereo.
> 
> Sometimes you can find the same recordings on a different label cheaper than Orfeo, but Orfeo has the better sound and really nice packaging with pictures, etc.
> 
> Always check the year of the performance, the place it was performed and who the conductor is to make sure it's the same recording.


Thanks, I'll check them out! I have listened to Sawallisch's Lohengrin and I really liked it.


----------



## The Conte

Woodduck said:


> My impression is that there are more ensembles playing at a higher level of technical excellence than there were fifty years ago, but that the top orchestras have always been superb. We have only to look at the difficulty of the music written by composers such as Wagner, Mahler and Strauss to see that they expected no less, and to listen to recordings from the 1950s and '60s to hear first-class orchestral playing.
> 
> Citing recordings by particular conductors can be deceiving; conductors such as Furtwangler and Knappertsbusch valued spontaneity and inspiration in performance, and the inevitable imprecision that occasionally resulted was not only unimportant but sometimes even part of the expressive effect, much as the separation of the hands in the attack of old-school pianists was. Clinical precision can be the enemy of feeling, militating against the sense that music is made by human beings in communication with each other.


Quite. I think in general that technical excellence in orchestral playing is better today than 100 years ago. However, that doesn't mean that _every_ orchestra plays better today than they did in the past or that all orchestras have improved. As always it's a mistake to apply a general trend to every individual situation.

N.


----------



## The Conte

annaw said:


> I was more thinking about pre-stereo recordings, but all recommendations are very welcome. I've really enjoyed the older stereo recordings (like Kna's '64 Parsifal and Sawallisch '62 Lohengrin) from Bayreuth I've listened to.


Here's my round up of the best pre stereo recordings for each of the Bayreuth canon operas (most of which others have mentioned and for good reason!)

































N.


----------



## The Conte

And EVERY collection needs at least TWO Kna Parsifals. Whilst the stereo '62 recording has the best sound of his many versions the '64 is in extremely good mono (almost as good as a 50s studio recording) and is a better performance than the 'official' professional recording that was then released on Philips. His classic 1951 recording is best left and the 1952 recording (which is in better sound in some respects) with the same cast, but all on finer form is preferred.

















All these come from Bayreuth, but they beat the competition for other recordings from the same era (excluding the Kempe studio Lohengrin).

N.


----------



## DavidA

The Conte said:


> Quite. I think in general that technical excellence in orchestral playing is better today than 100 years ago. However, that doesn't mean that _every_ orchestra plays better today than they did in the past or that all orchestras have improved. As always it's a mistake to apply a general trend to every individual situation.
> 
> N.


Of course orchestras play better, generally speaking. I can remember when (eg) the LSO was quite shambolic. Of course, one thing that has raised the standard is recording. What was permissible years ago in a concert is not permissible for repeated listening . The other thing is the general training of musicians is to a far higher level. You only have to listen to some of the youngsters playing today to hear their greater technical ability. Of course those who are in love with the good old days will talk about 'clinical precision', but of course, technical excellence does not necessarily exclude musical sensitivity as some people assume. Rather when rightly applied it enhances musical sensitivity.


----------



## howlingfantods

According to posters on TalkClassical, orchestra musicians are much better than they used to be in the early 20th century, but opera singers and pianists are much worse.

I'm confused how we've managed to set up conservatories so that they're improving one set of students but ruining another set of students based on their choice of instruments.


----------



## wkasimer

howlingfantods said:


> According to posters on TalkClassical, orchestra musicians are much better than they used to be in the early 20th century, but opera singers and pianists are much worse.


I'm not sure that anyone would serious claim that pianists are worse now, at least technically. Virtually any conservatory graduate has better pianistic chops than Artur Schnabel. And while violinists are technically more proficient now, I find many of them - not all - lacking in personality and imagination. This an issue for an orchestral player, which is why I agree that orchestral playing is probably at alltime high technically.

Singers are a different issue - I think that the ubiquity of recordings has forced too many singers to try to sound "phonogenic", and lose a lot of their vocal personality. And listeners have become less tolerant of a variety of voice types and styles in different roles. We expect Wagnerians to bellow, and when they don't, some dismiss their instruments as "too small".


----------



## DavidA

howlingfantods said:


> According to posters on TalkClassical, orchestra musicians are much better than they used to be in the early 20th century, but opera singers and pianists are much worse.
> 
> I'm confused how we've managed to set up conservatories so that they're improving one set of students but ruining another set of students based on their choice of instruments.


Pianists are worse? Technically? You must be joking! When a 15 year-old girl doing her GCSE's plays Prokofiev's second piano concerto with almighty aplomb in a BBC competition for young musicians? Please!


----------



## howlingfantods

DavidA said:


> Pianists are worse? Technically? You must be joking! When a 15 year-old girl doing her GCSE's plays Prokofiev's second piano concerto with almighty aplomb in a BBC competition for young musicians? Please!


"*According to posters on TalkClassical,* orchestra musicians are much better than they used to be in the early 20th century, but opera singers and pianists are much worse."

My own opinion diverges from all of these judgments--it's probably closest with singers, but considering many of my favorite singers of all time were plying their trade in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, I don't subscribe to the devolutionary theory.


----------



## DavidA

howlingfantods said:


> "*According to posters on TalkClassical,* orchestra musicians are much better than they used to be in the early 20th century, but opera singers and pianists are much worse."
> 
> My own opinion diverges from all of these judgments--it's probably closest with singers, but considering many of my favorite singers of all time were plying their trade in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, I don't subscribe to the devolutionary theory.


Sorry my post was aimed at the comment of TC members rather than you personally. I think with singers it depends what repertoire they are singing.


----------



## nospoonboy

howlingfantods said:


> I don't believe this ever existed, and I'm fairly sure I would have noticed if Pristine released this. I love those 1937 CG Walkure and Gotterdammerung extracts and I'm always looking at Pristine to see if they've remastered my favorites.


I received an e-mail from Andrew Rose and he confirmed that this was never a recording that was restored or that was offered by Pristine Classical. So we now have official word that the person who originally posted about that (in the reference I cited) was mistaken or a bad actor (deliberately spreading misinformation...but who would ever do such a thing on the internet? hahaha)
Thank you all


----------



## Rangstrom

Just listened to the re-release of the Goodall Tristan. Recorded around 1980, it may not fit this thread, but it was almost 40 years ago. When I first started buying operas in the late 60's the '54 Furtwangler and the '66 Bohm were basically the current releases to choose from. Going back 40 years from then took you into acoustic recordings.

Anyhow, the Goodall is slow (at 259 it is the slowest Tristan I have, I don't have the Bernstein) but always has a decent pulse and a sense of moving forward. I do miss some of the fire other recordings get in the big duet, yet there are many parts that are stunningly beautiful which may be passed by in many recordings. It isn't a first pick but as a 4th or 5th I say go for it.

In case any one is interested: First 4 (not always in this order) would be C. Kleiber (for overall approach and the conducting), a Vickers' set (probably Karajan, but the Nilsson boxset cd of the Orange DVD really has rescued the sound ), a Melchior ( I prefer Szell and/or Beecham) and, of course, Furtwangler (which I could not afford back in my college days). At this point Goodall, Knappertsbusch and that '67 Bohm are all ripe for flyer.


----------



## howlingfantods

Rangstrom said:


> but the Nilsson boxset cd of the Orange DVD really has rescued the sound


Oh, that's interesting--I hadn't heard about this. Were they able to lessen the wind noises? I'm tolerant of poor sound in general but I find wind noises on microphones very hard to take, and so I don't listen to this as much as I would otherwise.


----------



## Rangstrom

howlingfantods said:


> Oh, that's interesting--I hadn't heard about this. Were they able to lessen the wind noises? I'm tolerant of poor sound in general but I find wind noises on microphones very hard to take, and so I don't listen to this as much as I would otherwise.


I have both the DVD and this cd remastering and the sound quality is vastly improved. 
I didn't recall any wind noises on the cd so I just listened to Act 1 (on very sensitive headphones) trying to focus in on the wind (not a fun way to listen Tristan actually). I could hear some wind effects at times--sometimes sounding like a flag or cape flapping and sometimes a low rumble--but it was rare and you really had to be focused on it. Fogel in his review (Fanfare 42,4) was also taken by the improvement.

31 discs of Nilsson is quite a commitment, but almost all the performances are excellent and the set was selling at a good price a few months ago.


----------



## DarkAngel

nospoonboy said:


> I did  However, he is on vacation for another few weeks and I thought I would see if any on the forum heard about this release.
> 
> BTW, this was the reference I saw posted by "Wagner Fan": https://humanities.music.composers.wagner.narkive.com/zqWv2sET/flagstad-on-pristine-classical


I remember long ago (in ancient times) someone mentioned this Music & Arts CD version of what you seek.....


----------



## Admiral

Was looking at Pristine’s site to check out the 1950 Furtwangler cycle and saw they offer streaming for 10euros/month : anyone know if it works for US customers or is it only available in Europe?


----------



## DarkAngel

Admiral said:


> Was looking at Pristine's site to check out the 1950 Furtwangler cycle and saw they offer streaming for 10euros/month : anyone know if it works for US customers or is it only available in Europe?


I finally signed up for 1 year USA.......cost as much as my typical order and I get unlimited access to full catalog streaming 

You need to use google chrome browser for best quality HD Flac streaming


----------



## Admiral

DarkAngel said:


> I finally signed up for 1 year USA.......cost as much as my typical order and I get unlimited access to full catalog streaming
> 
> You need to use google chrome browser for best quality HD Flac streaming


Good to know thanks


----------



## nospoonboy

DarkAngel said:


> I remember long ago (in ancient times) someone mentioned this Music & Arts CD version of what you seek.....


Yes, I have the Music & Arts edition (which I like very much); however, in my experience, the Pristine editions are significantly different enough to warrant owning another edition (if it had indeed been offered).


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## Admiral

This weekend reminds me why I love this thread 

Just spent 3 days listening to the ZYX compilation plus the 1955 Walkure and the Met box set (and a bunch of other classical like the Furtwangler Schubert 9th wow) 

No way I would have gone down the rabbit hole that leads to all this amazing music without this thread - thank you all !


----------



## Admiral

I was so inspired I just dropped $313 on a great seat for the Chicago Lyric Gotterdammerung !


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## DarkAngel

Admiral said:


> This weekend reminds me why I love this thread
> 
> Just spent 3 days listening to the ZYX compilation plus the 1955 Walkure and the Met box set (and a bunch of other classical like the *Furtwangler Schubert 9th wow*)
> 
> No way I would have gone down the rabbit hole that leads to all this amazing music without this thread - thank you all !


Other threads here have greatly expanded my Furtwangler collection recently with the new SACD BP boxset and a few Japanese Tahra 4-6 CD boxset re-issues ........none of these have Furtwangler Wagner works only Pristine XR streaming!


----------



## Revitalized Classics

Hi everyone,

I've been reading a little about the Flagstad/ Melchior feud(s) and wondered if anyone knows if they ever were reconciled? 

Are there any good articles or book chapters etc you can recommend please?

Thanks for your help!
Best wishes
David


----------



## Music Snob

This past week I received the 52 and 54 Kna Parsifals... I can not recommend them enough. For all the hubaloo about 51 and 62 one would think they were the best efforts. IMO, not by a long shot.

Hans Hotter is no Gurnemanz for me- however he hits a double grand slam as Amfortas in the 54. Griendl as Gurnemanz is to my taste a better fit than Weber. I can not recommend the 1954 version enough.

The live Knappertsbusch versions I had- 51 and 62- never did much for me. However, like a said, the 52 and 54 are quite better all around IMO, and worth having... in the event some of us Wagner freaks who frequent this thread are on the fence about these. You won’t regret it.


----------



## The Conte

Music Snob said:


> This past week I received the 52 and 54 Kna Parsifals... I can not recommend them enough. For all the hubaloo about 51 and 62 one would think they were the best efforts. IMO, not by a long shot.
> 
> Hans Hotter is no Gurnemanz for me- however he hits a double grand slam as Amfortas in the 54. Griendl as Gurnemanz is to my taste a better fit than Weber. I can not recommend the 1954 version enough.
> 
> The live Knappertsbusch versions I had- 51 and 62- never did much for me. However, like a said, the 52 and 54 are quite better all around IMO, and worth having... in the event some of us Wagner freaks who frequent this thread are on the fence about these. You won't regret it.


I've maintained that the 52 is better than 51 for some time, but I don't know the 54. Have you heard the 64? That's the one I would choose over the 62.

N.


----------



## Granate

Music Snob said:


> This past week I received the 52 and 54 Kna Parsifals... I can not recommend them enough. For all the hubaloo about 51 and 62 one would think they were the best efforts. IMO, not by a long shot.


I agree with this so much. Windgassen will always be my favourite Parsifal, and these two performances are easily his best, also counting his remarkable 63 show-off.

But how did you get 1954? Only a CD from OperaDepot would be available, unless you found a decent old archipel copy.


----------



## Music Snob

Granate said:


> I agree with this so much. Windgassen will always be my favourite Parsifal, and these two performances are easily his best, also counting his remarkable 63 show-off.
> 
> But how did you get 1954? Only a CD from OperaDepot would be available, unless you found a decent old archipel copy.


I'm in the US, and I had to search amazon in different countries until I found a used/ very good Archipel on amazon.fr from a seller named Japazon. It was from this same seller on amazon.es that I was able to find the Gotterdammerung 1957/Kna earlier this year. Japazon sent both products in great condition and care. As the name suggests, the seller is actually from Japan...selling on amazon France and Spain... go figure.

The sound quality is great on both the 52 and 54. Plus, they are different enough to be unique even in the early 50's Kna readings. I live Kna's broad scope and reverence with all his 1950's Wagner.

I have not heard the 64 yet, it is on my radar though. For completions sake I would love to have Kna's Parsifal swan song.


----------



## Ragnar

Final got my hands on a Kna 1957 Gotterdammerung on Walhall. Had to purchase from a Japanese seller off Amazon. But price was decent and free shipping. I think my 50’s Bayreuth Rings will now be complete.


----------



## DavidA

Revitalized Classics said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I've been reading a little about the Flagstad/ Melchior feud(s) and wondered if anyone knows if they ever were reconciled?
> 
> Are there any good articles or book chapters etc you can recommend please?
> 
> Thanks for your help!
> Best wishes
> David


According to Wiki

"Flagstad got involved in a long-running feud with tenor co-star Lauritz Melchior after Melchior took offense to some comments Flagstad made about "stupid publicity photos" during a game of bridge in Flagstad's hotel suite while the two were on tour together in Rochester, NY. Present during the infamous bridge game were Flagstad, Melchior and his wife, and Edwin McArthur. Afterwards, Melchior fanned the flames further by insisting that there be no solo curtain calls for Flagstad when the two performed together. Audiences had no clue that, despite the marvelous and sometimes historic performances, the two never said a word to each other off stage for the next two years. It was Flagstad's husband Henry Johansen who finally brought the two together to make peace. Flagstad also feuded with the Met's general manager, Edward Johnson, after conductor Artur Bodanzky's death, when she asked to be conducted for a few performances by her accompanist, Edwin McArthur, rather than by the Met's new conductor Erich Leinsdorf. Flagstad had wanted this for McArthur, whom she had taken under her wing. Johnson refused and would not hear of it any further. Flagstad did get her way, though; she went over Johnson's head and discussed the matter with the Met's board of directors, particularly David Sarnoff, RCA and NBC founder and chairman. It was Sarnoff who made the arrangements for McArthur to begin conducting Met productions on a limited basis.[3] Her relationship with Johnson improved, however; just before Flagstad left the Met in 1941, on the night of her 100th performance of Isolde, she received 100 roses, courtesy of Melchior and Johnson."
The problems with Melchior are also mentioned in 'The Devil's Music Master' and also in Harold Schoenberg's mini-biography. Apparently Melchior got very bored with singing Wagner and one time after Tristan's death fell asleep and began to snore. Flagstad had to kick him awaken before she sang the Lieberstod!


----------



## Granate

Ragnar said:


> Final got my hands on a Kna 1957 Gotterdammerung on Walhall. Had to purchase from a Japanese seller off Amazon. But price was decent and free shipping. I think my 50's Bayreuth Rings will now be complete.


AAAAAAAAAARG Please share the links. I've been searching japazon for half an hour!


----------



## Ragnar

Granate said:


> AAAAAAAAAARG Please share the links. I've been searching japazon for half an hour!


Got it off Amazon.com third party seller. Used but listed as great condition. I've spent months hunting this set. Still kick myself for all the times I had it in my cart when it was available easily and didn't pull the trigger. It taught me a lesson on these historic recordings get them right away or pay more later. If I come across another I'll let you know ASAP.


----------



## Music Snob

Granate said:


> AAAAAAAAAARG Please share the links. I've been searching japazon for half an hour!


https://www.amazon.fr/sp?_encoding=...145128&seller=A29OT6XBMA9KFM&tab=&vasStoreID=

https://www.amazon.es/sp?_encoding=...260368&seller=A29OT6XBMA9KFM&tab=&vasStoreID=

Here is the Japazon profile on both the amazon France and Spain websites. I bought the Parsifal 54 and Gotterdammerung 57 Kna from each one respectively.


----------



## Barbebleu

Granate said:


> I agree with this so much. Windgassen will always be my favourite Parsifal, and these two performances are easily his best, also counting his remarkable 63 show-off.
> 
> But how did you get 1954? Only a CD from OperaDepot would be available, unless you found a decent old archipel copy.


Obviously the one the true aficionado needs is the non-existent '55 Parsifal. I'm sure that Bavarian Radio must have a recording languishing in their vaults. They recorded everything at Bayreuth. Why would this be an exception!!


----------



## The Conte

Barbebleu said:


> Obviously the one the true aficionado needs is the non-existent '55 Parsifal. I'm sure that Bavarian Radio must have a recording languishing in their vaults. They recorded everything at Bayreuth. Why would this be an exception!!


But why do we need it, is it supposed to be a good one?

N.


----------



## Barbebleu

The Conte said:


> But why do we need it, is it supposed to be a good one?
> 
> N.


No clue. It might be a complete dud but it's purely because it's the only Knappertsbusch Parsifal for that year that I don't have. I have one for every other year and it offends my sensibilities that I haven't got the set!!:lol:


----------



## Barbebleu

Picked up a couple of Wagner recordings in Opera Depot's 50% off sale this week one of which is a recording of Lohengrin from Marseille with Janos Furst conducting and Alberto Remedios as Lohengrin. There is no date but given that Furst was MD at the Maseille opera from 1981 to 1990 I'm assuming it is from that period. Anybody have an inkling? Google has been less than illuminating!!

The other one I got is their free download of Tannhäuser from Covent Garden in 1973 with Jessye Norman as Elisabeth.

Wotan knows when I'll get around to hearing them:lol:


----------



## Revitalized Classics

Barbebleu said:


> Picked up a couple of Wagner recordings in Opera Depot's 50% off sale this week one of which is a recording of Lohengrin from Marseille with Janos Furst conducting and Alberto Remedios as Lohengrin. There is no date but given that Furst was MD at the Maseille opera from 1981 to 1990 I'm assuming it is from that period. Anybody have an inkling? Google has been less than illuminating!!
> 
> The other one I got is their free download of Tannhäuser from Covent Garden in 1973 with Jessye Norman as Elisabeth.
> 
> Wotan knows when I'll get around to hearing them:lol:


Looks like December 1983 for the Lohengrin



> Décembre 1983, Lohengrin J. Furst / J. Karpo, L. Rysanek, A. Remedios, D. Mac Intyre, V. Von Halem


Source: http://odb-opera.com/joomfinal/inde...opera/198-opera-de-marseille?showall=&start=1


----------



## Barbebleu

Revitalized Classics said:


> Looks like December 1983 for the Lohengrin
> 
> Source: http://odb-opera.com/joomfinal/inde...opera/198-opera-de-marseille?showall=&start=1


Thank you for that. I'll be adding that resource to my favourites!:tiphat:


----------



## Barbebleu

Just finished listening to Turandot, Buenos Aires, 1965 with Nilsson, Caballe and Usonov. Blinding stuff. The audience cheered them to the rafters and deservedly so.


----------



## Scott in PA

A shame that Wagner didn't live long enough to complete Turandot...


----------



## Barbebleu

Scott in PA said:


> A shame that Wagner didn't live long enough to complete Turandot...


Yeah, I realised too late that I'd posted in the wrong thread! Doh!!:lol:


----------



## The Conte

Is anybody familiar with this release?









There are a couple of annoying cuts in scene one in this release. These sound as if the source used was vinyl and the record skipped and there is no way that they could be cuts in the performance as the sound suddenly skips in the middle of someone singing to a point later on in the performance. I conclude that the performance was complete and that this issue was badly transferred from a vinyl source or that something happened with the radio broadcast (signal dropped out?) and that part of the recording was chopped out for this release (or the version that this was copied from).

Does anyone know the reason for this? Is there another version that has the missing segments?

N.


----------



## The Conte

The Conte said:


> Is anybody familiar with this release?
> 
> View attachment 126727
> 
> 
> There are a couple of annoying cuts in scene one in this release. These sound as if the source used was vinyl and the record skipped and there is no way that they could be cuts in the performance as the sound suddenly skips in the middle of someone singing to a point later on in the performance. I conclude that the performance was complete and that this issue was badly transferred from a vinyl source or that something happened with the radio broadcast (signal dropped out?) and that part of the recording was chopped out for this release (or the version that this was copied from).
> 
> Does anyone know the reason for this? Is there another version that has the missing segments?
> 
> N.


It's ok, I've solved it. I played it again and this time the disc didn't skip. I guess my player got excited at its first sampling of the Kna '58 Ring!

N.


----------



## Granate

The Conte said:


> It's ok, I've solved it. I played it again and this time the disc didn't skip. I guess my player got excited at its first sampling of the Kna '58 Ring!
> 
> N.


----------



## inglis

DarkAngel said:


> Other threads here have greatly expanded my Furtwangler collection recently with the new SACD BP boxset and a few Japanese Tahra 4-6 CD boxset re-issues ........none of these have Furtwangler Wagner works only Pristine XR streaming!


Andrew Rose at Pristine Classical has some comments on the Berlin set in his Nov 29 newsletter.


----------



## Granate

Got this for under 12 Euros shipping included on Ebay (last copy on sale). And this completes my bizarre list of Parsifal recordings I own: only four by Hans Knappertsbusch even if two are widely considered essential and the other two, like no one would understand the reason to even listen to them (not even myself).

Hans Knappertsbusch Bayreuth 1951
Hans Knappertsbusch Bayreuth 1952
Hans Knappertsbusch Bayreuth 1961
Hans Knappertsbusch Bayreuth 1962

I had listened to all of them and in the challenge I happened to prefer the overall singing of Bayreuth 1952 over any, even if 1951 had better sound quality but excessive slowness.

And now, shortly after finally owning the Stereo 1962 Parsifal, I had listened to the 1961 recently. It also has worse sound quality than 1962, with the same cast, but comparatively much better SQ than 1951 and 1952. However, I would discuss if the performance of Gurnemanz and Kundry (Hotter and Dalis) are much fresher and radiant than the stereo recording. What do you think? I think the final 1964 performance offers the most legendary conducting of all, but I can't stand old Hotter in Gurnemanz, in case you mentioned.

*Link to the post I wrote this summer about the 1961 performance.*


----------



## txtrnl341

I had a complete Siegfried with Set Svanholm [can't recall the Brunhilde offhand] and it was memorable only in that he totally ran out of steam at the end. In my youth I found this quite amusing but however with age comes wisdom and hopefully compassion so hats off to the gentleman for at least giving a difficult role all he had.


----------



## damianjb1

It's not historic yet but I just listened to Bernstein's Tristan und Isolde. I found it to be an extraordinary experience. It never seems to have been rated very highly but I loved it. I thought Behrens was lovely (she's never been a singer I've been particularly fond of), Hoffman pretty ordinary, Minton was excellent and Sotin also excellent. It's very slow but I heard many, many things in the orchestra I've never heard before. I listened to it via streaming but I'll definitely be adding it to my collection. There's a Blu-Ray of it out that apparently has much better sound than the CD.


----------



## damianjb1

Ragnar said:


> Been awhile since I commented here but have been following. Since last I was heard from here I saw my first live Ring Cycle. It was awesome. But on the historic recording front I finally pulled the trigger on the Kna 58 Ring on Walhall. I procrastinated on the 57 for so long and now the Gotterdammarung from 57 is unavailable. That's what I get for having it in my cart wait list forever. I did not want to take the chance with the 58. I'll probably still get the Rheingold, Walkure and Siegfried from 57 in hopes I come across a Gotterdammarung. I haven't heard the 58 at all but see the praise here. I've learned to trust the people here.


I'm no expert but Knappertsbusch is well on the way to becoming my favourite Wagner conductor. I wish there was a Tristan in good sound.


----------



## damianjb1

GeorgeMcW said:


> I am still totally floored by this Krauss 53 Ring. Hans Hotter brings such musculature to this role here, and Varnay's voice so full of fire and warmth. And the orchestral playing + Krauss's directing - utterly exhilarating and engaging.
> 
> Think I'll stay here for a while.... not ready to move to my next Ring just yet.


You're all good. There are many who consider it the best recording.


----------



## Barbebleu

The only problem with the Krauss ‘53 is the first act of Siegfried, which by consensus, is actually Act one of the Keilberth from the same year. See post #3507 for a quite detailed explanation. Otherwise you’re golden!!


----------



## The Conte

Barbebleu said:


> The only problem with the Krauss '53 is the first act of Siegfried, which by consensus, is actually Act one of the Keilberth from the same year. See post #3507 for a quite detailed explanation. Otherwise you're golden!!


Although if you check post #3507 it's clear that the Krauss '53 Orfeo release (which from my comparisons has the best sound) has the correct Siegfried act one including the opening timpani roll. It's the Keilberth '53 that uses Krauss' Siegfried act one in all the CD releases of the opera.

The Keilberth '53 is possibly my favourite recording of the cycle (although it's only surpassed by the Furtwaengler Rai recording in terms of how bad the sound is) and so the Keilberth '55 (second cycle) is my go to Ring. It's a shame about the missing act in the '53 set, but I am prepared to put up with that as there is no other way of hearing the rest of this miraculous performance of the tetralogy.

Let's hope Orfeo give us the present of a superb 'official' release of the Keilberth '53.

N.


----------



## The Conte

damianjb1 said:


> I'm no expert but Knappertsbusch is well on the way to becoming my favourite Wagner conductor. I wish there was a Tristan in good sound.


I wish there were a Bayreuth Tristan (with either Modl and Windgassen or Nilsson and Vickers).

N.


----------



## Barbebleu

The Conte said:


> Although if you check post #3507 it's clear that the Krauss '53 Orfeo release (which from my comparisons has the best sound) has the correct Siegfried act one including the opening timpani roll. It's the Keilberth '53 that uses Krauss' Siegfried act one in all the CD releases of the opera.
> 
> The Keilberth '53 is possibly my favourite recording of the cycle (although it's only surpassed by the Furtwaengler Rai recording in terms of how bad the sound is) and so the Keilberth '55 (second cycle) is my go to Ring. It's a shame about the missing act in the '53 set, but I am prepared to put up with that as there is no other way of hearing the rest of this miraculous performance of the tetralogy.
> 
> Let's hope Orfeo give us the present of a superb 'official' release of the Keilberth '53.
> 
> N.


It's a very confusing post!! So now the consensus is that the Krauss is right and the Keilberth is wrong.

I'm not holding my breath for an Orfeo release of the correct Keilberth anytime soon. Perhaps if I send a begging letter to them telling them of my advancing years they might concede but I doubt it.


----------



## damianjb1

The Conte said:


> I wish there were a Bayreuth Tristan (with either Modl and Windgassen or Nilsson and Vickers).
> 
> N.


That would be a dream come true.


----------



## wkasimer

The Conte said:


> I wish there were a Bayreuth Tristan (with either Modl and Windgassen or Nilsson and Vickers).


I'm quite content with Mödl and Vinay, Bayreuth 1952.


----------



## The Conte

wkasimer said:


> I'm quite content with Mödl and Vinay, Bayreuth 1952.


Yes, me too. It's possibly my favourite Tristan. However, imagine what it would have been under Kna!

(Very different and not necessarily better than Karajan, but to have both approaches!)

N.


----------



## gardibolt

Barbebleu said:


> It's a very confusing post!! So now the consensus is that the Krauss is right and the Keilberth is wrong.
> 
> I'm not holding my breath for an Orfeo release of the correct Keilberth anytime soon. Perhaps if I send a begging letter to them telling them of my advancing years they might concede but I doubt it.


Post 3507 is confusing because it's a number of people's posts combined together, tracing the history of the discussion and where we came to conclusions. It includes speculation, guesses, half-truths and misinformation in the earlier posts (including mine). For any normal person, the only thing that counts is my last post quoted in that post 3507, where the folks at Bavarian Radio, who have the actual broadcast tapes, kindly explained the situation:



> I decided to get to the bottom of this and contacted Bavarian Radio directly about the mystery of the 1953 Siegfried Act I. I am going to put the full information that i got into an article for publication, but here are the relevant essentials straight from Bavarian Radio:
> 
> 1) they still have the original tapes for both the Keilberth and the Krauss Siegfried from 1953.
> 2) the Orfeo Krauss includes the correct Krauss Act I of Siegfried, and it is indeed from the original Bavarian Radio tapes as Orfeo claims.
> 3) the Act I Siegfried on all of the 1953 Keilberth releases other than the pseudonymous Allegro/Royale bootleg of the Keilberth radio broadcast taped off the air is actually Krauss' version. BR graciously double-checked the tapes after my inquiry, and they are not the same first acts on the original tapes. The Krauss Act I has a loud cough on the opening G-Bb of the bassoons (mostly erased on the pristine version), which is the giveaway that Act I is the same as on all of these 1953 releases. There is no cough there on the genuine Keilberth. Except for the Allegro/Royale bootleg, the actual Act I of Keilberth's 1953 Siegfried hasn't been heard since the original broadcast.
> 4) if someone (Orfeo, let's say) wanted to release the 1953 Keilberth Ring direct from the Bavarian Radio tapes and got the OK of Bayreuth, they could certainly do so. The tapes are in fine shape and have not been damaged as some have speculated.
> 
> So there you have it. Krauss lovers can rest easy. The Orfeo Krauss is the genuine article (complete with the opening timpani roll). Keilberth fans have something to look forward to, maybe. I think i will have to buy the Orfeo Krauss to give them a modest encouragement to do the Keilberth. My OCD is offended by the Keilberth Act I of Siegfried on the various releases, including Pan Classics, being a fraud.


Based on that, the most likely explanation is that whomever "borrowed" the BR tapes to make the copy of the 1953 Keilberth Siegfried that is the source for all of the issues ever since accidentally grabbed the tape of the Krauss Act I.


----------



## Barbebleu

gardibolt said:


> Post 3507 For any normal person,


Are you suggesting that I might not be "normal"?:lol: Many of my fellow inmates would agree but who would believe them?

As a Wagnerian, Mahlerian, Straussian and Shostakovichian (there's a new word for the lexicon) of many years standing (and quite a few sitting down) I'm amazed I have moments of sanity at all.


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## gvn

The Conte said:


> The Keilberth '55 (second cycle) is my go to Ring.


Has the _Siegfried_ of this cycle (Keilberth 1955, with Mödl) been released anywhere?


----------



## The Conte

Barbebleu said:


> Are you suggesting that I might not be "normal"?:lol: Many of my fellow inmates would agree but who would believe them?
> 
> As a Wagnerian, Mahlerian, Straussian and Shostakovichian (there's a new word for the lexicon) of many years standing (and quite a few sitting down) I'm amazed I have moments of sanity at all.


If you've posted a comment in this thread then you are definitely not 'normal'!

Eviva Wagner geekdom!

N.


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## wkasimer

gvn said:


> Has the _Siegfried_ of this cycle (Keilberth 1955, with Mödl) been released anywhere?


Not to my knowledge, but I'd love to be proved wrong.


----------



## gvn

There does seem to be a curse on the Hotter-Windgassen-Mödl Siegfried recordings! One can't be obtained with the correct first act; the other can't be obtained at all.


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## damianjb1

The Conte said:


> I wish there were a Bayreuth Tristan (with either Modl and Windgassen or Nilsson and Vickers).
> 
> N.


OMG - me too. My life would be complete.


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## Music Snob

Yesterday Pristine Classical has a 15% off purchases over 50€ so I bit the bullet and purchased Tristan 41, Tannhäuser 41, and Lohengrin 40. 

I am delighted to have made this purchase after having listened to most of Act 1 of Tristan and Act 2 of Tannhäuser. What a golden age of music! Leinsdorf is not my favorite Wagnerian conductor but how easy it is to revel in those voices. 

These are not everyday disposable products of music, they are a small treasure to behold. Now if only Andrew Rose can knock the price down by half on his 1952 Tristan... that price I cannot justify. Is it even worth it?


----------



## DarkAngel

Music Snob said:


> Yesterday Pristine Classical has a 15% off purchases over 50€ so I bit the bullet and purchased Tristan 41, Tannhäuser 41, and Lohengrin 40.
> 
> I am delighted to have made this purchase after having listened to most of* Act 1 of Tristan and Act 2 of Tannhäuser.* What a golden age of music! Leinsdorf is not my favorite Wagnerian conductor but how easy it is to revel in those voices.
> 
> These are not everyday disposable products of music, they are a small treasure to behold. Now if only Andrew Rose can knock the price down by half on his 1952 Tristan... that price I cannot justify. Is it even worth it?


The Pristine XR price issue can be solved easily......subscribe to lossless FLAC streaming service!

For the price of one of my typical Pristine orders I get unlimited access to entire catalog for 1 year, much more great opera than just Wagner. Plus the various orchestral performances are often just amazing in great sound Furtwangler, Rachmaninov, Toscanini, Walter, Horenstein etc
























The 1941 MET saturday radio broadcasts are last chance for national audience to hear Flagstad before she returns to Norway during the war years, from Pristine website regarding this memorable 41 Tristan



> This broadcast was the last time the radio audience heard Kirsten Flagstad and Lauritz Melchior sing together. While the Met's faithful had several more chances to hear them together in the opera house before Flagstad's departure for Europe on 19 April 1941 (their final performance together was in _Die Walküre_ during a tour performance in Cleveland on 17 April 1941), none of those performances were broadcast, or otherwise preserved. This is therefore our last chance, as listeners, to hear the greatest cast ever assembled for this opera. With all due respect to the tenors who sang with Flagstad after the war, and to Helen Traubel, Melchior's principal partner from late 1941 onwards, nothing has matched the partnership of Melchior and Flagstad as Wagner's ill-fated Tristan and Isolde since 1941. There have been some great Isoldes (Astrid Varnay and Birgit Nilsson for example) and some worthy Tristans (such as Wolfgang Windgassen and Ramon Vinay), but the magic Melchior and Flagstad created was unprecedented and unequalled since.


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## Music Snob

Thank you for the reply Dark Angel. This thread is dear to me. 

I feel that historical Wagner recordings are among the greatest achievements of art mankind has accomplished. Obsessive as I am it is my urge to own these discs in my collection. Call it a weakness, perhaps, but I feel the need to have the tangible item on my shelf. Not only for myself but hopefully my children will have an interest when their older. Already my two year old recognizes and likes Wagner... 

I do listen through my Cowon MP3 player, after ripping the cd’s to FLAC, after which the cd’s occupy a primo spot on my shelves.

Regardless, I thank you for the heads up. Your posts throughout this thread are very helpful. How did you first discover historical Wagner recordings, if I may ask?


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## Granate

What do you think about buying a Ring like this? I want to stream it as soon as I finish Verdi's _Don Carlo_ (5 recordings remaining).


































And there's still the option of getting this to complement:


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## Barbebleu

Granate said:


> What do you think about buying a Ring like this? I want to stream it as soon as I finish Verdi's _Don Carlo_ (5 recordings remaining).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And there's still the option of getting this to complement:


I can actually put this together. In fact I might!! Great casts from a golden era.


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## Granate

We can still buy the whole Covent Garden cycle, but the SQ in DW and Siegfried is obnoxious to me. I was afraid you told me why not getting the 58 Götterdämmerung. Have you listened to the Prologue of Konwitschny here? What a wonder comes by accident.


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## wkasimer

Substitute the 1958 Siegfried for the 1957.


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## The Conte

I have the whole of the Kna 58 Bayreuth and it is my favourite Kna Ring overall. Why not get all three complete Rings rather than the separates?

N.


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## Granate

wkasimer said:


> Substitute the 1958 Siegfried for the 1957.





The Conte said:


> I have the whole of the Kna 58 Bayreuth and it is my favourite Kna Ring overall.


You know I find the 1957 Ring to have slightly more quality than 1958, except in DW which I already own. I would buy the 1957 Rheingold and Siegfried before your propositions, but yeah, I should consider whether the 1958 Götterdämmerung is superior to the 1959 in Covent Garden.



The Conte said:


> Why not get all three complete Rings rather than the separates?


This is the key question. Because I want to try this combination and see if I can disagree with you.

And if there are no definitive results, so ok, let's keep buying the Inkinen Sibelius CDs, that's less money for me... 

I downloaded this one for free too. Opera depot has ring sales!


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## Barbebleu

In response to #4375 - I haven’t listened yet but when I do, I will report back.

Update - I have now listened to the Prologue. Brilliant. The Norns are just superb and Konwitschny propels the orchestra to great effect. If the rest of the opera is as good then I am in for a real treat. I feel duty bound however to listen to the other three operas first and return to Götterdämmerung later.


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## wkasimer

Granate said:


> You know I find the 1957 Ring to have slightly more quality than 1958, except in DW which I already own. I would buy the 1957 Rheingold and Siegfried before your propositions,


Not sure about Rheingold, but why on earth would you prefer the 1957 Siegfried? With Aldenhoff and Kuen, Act 1 is virtually unlistenable. Windgassen and Stolze in 1958 are a vast improvement.



> I downloaded this one for free too. Opera depot has ring sales!


A pretty generous offering - the Siegfried recording is particularly good.


----------



## Granate

wkasimer said:


> Not sure about Rheingold, but why on earth would you prefer the 1957 Siegfried? With Aldenhoff and Kuen, Act 1 is virtually unlistenable. Windgassen and Stolze in 1958 are a vast improvement.


You have the same kind of opinion about the 1957 Siegfried than I have for the 1957 Die Walküre. It's Ok. I don't really rate 1957 Siegfried as really great compared to 1958. I recall they were in a near tie for me, but I can't stand an arythmic Windgassen in Act 1 unlike Aldenhoff. None of our opinions are wrong.


----------



## Granate

Barbebleu said:


> I feel duty bound however to listen to the other three operas first and return to Götterdämmerung later.


I love the conducting more than anything else in this cycle, but I really disliked the Siegfried both for singing and especially SQ. DW was really well sung for me but SQ wasn't good either. I think Walhall only had the original tapes for the two I have posted: Rheingold and Götterdämmerung.



Barbebleu said:


> If the rest of the opera is as good then I am in for a real treat.


Just don't leave with the last CD copy please! :lol: I don't want to be left only with the Bayreuth 1958 GDR.


----------



## Barbebleu

Granate said:


> I love the conducting more than anything else in this cycle, but I really disliked the Siegfried both for singing and especially SQ. DW was really well sung for me but SQ wasn't good either. I think Walhall only had the original tapes for the two I have posted: Rheingold and Götterdämmerung.
> 
> Just don't leave with the last CD copy please! :lol: I don't want to be left only with the Bayreuth 1958 GDR.


Don't need to listen to the first three operas. I just realised that the reason that only Götterdämmerung is on my iPod is because I have already listened to the others. Four years ago!! Too much music your majesty!


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## annaw

I had this ambitious plan to get better acquainted with Italian opera now that I'm in quarantine, but I somehow still ended up listening to this instead of Verdi...


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## Admiral

When I got notice I was working from home I got my large collection of Walhalls all set up and then my spouse got notice she was working from home and then I put them away


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## Woodduck

Admiral said:


> When I got notice I was working from home I got my large collection of Walhalls all set up and then my spouse got notice she was working from home and then I put them away


Sounds like the marriage of Wotan and Fricka.


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## Admiral

Woodduck said:


> Sounds like the marriage of Wotan and Fricka.


Well yes in actual truth I'm a law maker and law bender and she is the moral authority


----------



## Barbebleu

Woodduck said:


> Sounds like the marriage of Wotan and Fricka.


Or Petruchio and Kate

I believe William Blake also made some acute observations


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## annaw

Although I had to take a little (or not so little...) break in the middle of the second act to listen to Met's _Meistersinger_, I've really enjoyed this recording so far. I'm starting to like Windgassen more and more every time I listen to him. Initially I wasn't used to his German pronunciation (maybe it's just his voice though) and preferred e.g Vickers, but after hearing his utterly amazing Siegfrieds, I started liking him A LOT - just such a powerful and huge voice.


----------



## Granate

annaw said:


> Although I had to take a little (or not so little...) break in the middle of the second act to listen to Met's _Meistersinger_, I've really enjoyed this recording so far. I'm starting to like Windgassen more and more every time I listen to him. Initially I wasn't used to his German pronunciation (maybe it's just his voice though) and preferred e.g Vickers, but after hearing his utterly amazing Siegfrieds, I started liking him A LOT - just such a powerful and huge voice.


Always the best casted Tännhäuser I can think of. I always say it. This edition though expensive is preferrable to the Stereo version. The Myto Edition from the premiere day which I own stays close to the top.


















I listened to these recordings on CD (1961 and 1962) one day after the other. Clean and detailed mono sound in the first and warm and full stereo sound in the commercial recording. I expected Hans Hotter to do significantly worse in 1962 because I found him really fresh and convincing in 1961. But it was just at the beginning. From the Amfortas tale, he delivers a very firm tone throughout the opera that I didn't remember. Maybe I was getting confused with his performance in 1964.

Still.

Hate.

Jess.

Thomas.

And the rest are superb, especially Kna. The recording to own. Now the 1961 seems useless again. Though I think Parsifal gets the shap notes better. I still prefer Windgassen's attitude.


----------



## DarkAngel

annaw said:


> Although I had to take a little (or not so little...) break in the middle of the second act to listen to Met's _Meistersinger_, I've really enjoyed this recording so far. I'm starting to like Windgassen more and more every time I listen to him. Initially I wasn't used to his German pronunciation (maybe it's just his voice though) and preferred e.g Vickers, but after hearing his utterly amazing Siegfrieds, I started liking him A LOT - just such a powerful and huge voice.


Good choice, Itullian's fav because of his mad love for Vicky DLA, but also remarkable because of Grace Bumbry who broke the race barrier at Bayreuth with this acclaimed off the charts "black venus' performance, Wolfgang Wagner pays tribute to the great diva.........










The 41 MET radio broadcast remastered by Pristine XR is a treasure and not to be missed, to hear this collection of great singers in excellent sound will spoil you and make any subsequent performance seem pale in comparison


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## annaw

Thanks for a great recommendation, DarkAngel - I'll check it out! I think I wrote about this earlier in the thread, but I've only recently developed the skill to ignore the mono sound. It has opened a whole new world for me and I'm very excited to finally listen to all those great historical recordings!


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## Itullian

Finally got this one.


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## adriesba

Woodduck said:


> Sounds like the marriage of Wotan and Fricka.


That's hilarious! :lol:


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## Woodduck

Itullian said:


> Finally got this one.


Congrats. That was the recording that made me fall in love with Elisabeth Grummer, who was as perfect an Eva as she was an Agathe in _Der Freischutz._


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## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Finally got this one.












Eva in paradise.........


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## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> Finally got this one.


I thought you'd got this ages ago. Ah well. It's one of my favourite versions. My first iteration was actually on cassette tape!!


----------



## wkasimer

Itullian said:


>


If only this were recorded in stereo. At the time it was recorded, most labels had begun to record in stereo, and I believe that even slow-to-the-party EMI had recorded other things in stereo. The sonics on this Meistersinger are OK, but the orchestra is pretty far in the background for my taste. But Grümmer is heavenly...


----------



## Woodduck

^^^A few years later Decca was to go the other way with the Solti _Tristan_ and put the singers in the background.


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## The Conte

I love Grummer in Meistersinger, but I would go with the Kna Bayreuth live recording to hear her. Since it isn't one of my favourite operas I don't have many recordings of it, I think one studio and four live (the Kna, the Kubelik, the Barenboim and the one in the Met Wagner box set).

N.


----------



## wkasimer

The Conte said:


> I love Grummer in Meistersinger, but I would go with the Kna Bayreuth live recording to hear her. Since it isn't one of my favourite operas I don't have many recordings of it, I think one studio and four live (the Kna, the Kubelik, the Barenboim and the one in the Met Wagner box set).


I'm pretty sure that the Kubelik was a studio recording, made for radio broadcast.

I agree about that 1960 Bayreuth performance, one of my favorites of this opera.


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## adriesba

wkasimer said:


> I'm pretty sure that the Kubelik was a studio recording, made for radio broadcast.


I also think it was, but I'm not sure.


----------



## annaw

The Conte said:


> I love Grummer in Meistersinger, but I would go with the Kna Bayreuth live recording to hear her. Since it isn't one of my favourite operas I don't have many recordings of it, I think one studio and four live (the Kna, the Kubelik, the Barenboim and the one in the Met Wagner box set).
> 
> N.


I am currently listening to Kna's 1960 recording - absolutely wonderful and the cast is amazing. I mean, Windgassen, George London, Theo Adam, Josef Greindl, Grümmer and Stolze in one recording... only Hotter is missing :lol: .


----------



## annaw

I'm a huge fan of Kna's 1962 Parsifal but decided to listen to this one as well. I really enjoyed it and Hotter was marvellous, I also really like Jess Thomas, so that wasn't a problem. I started appreciating Jess Thomas as an artist a lot more after hearing one of his full interviews just recently.


----------



## The Conte

wkasimer said:


> *I'm pretty sure that the Kubelik was a studio recording, made for radio broadcast.
> *
> I agree about that 1960 Bayreuth performance, one of my favorites of this opera.


That would make sense, I knew it was a radio broadcast.

N.


----------



## wkasimer

annaw said:


> I am currently listening to Kna's 1960 recording - absolutely wonderful and the cast is amazing. I mean, Windgassen, George London, Theo Adam, Josef Greindl, Grümmer and Stolze in one recording... only Hotter is missing :lol: .


I think that you're mistaken about George London .

Hotter only sang the role one season at Bayreuth, in 1956. Unfortunately, every source of that recording sounds pretty awful.


----------



## Woodduck

annaw said:


> I am currently listening to Kna's 1960 recording - absolutely wonderful and the cast is amazing. I mean, Windgassen, George London, Theo Adam, Josef Greindl, Grümmer and Stolze in one recording... only Hotter is missing :lol: .


For me that would have to be a performance with enough character and energy to make it greater than the sum of its vocal parts. Windgassen, Adam, Greindl and Stolze are all admirable artists, but none of them have timbres that strike me as especially attractive.


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## annaw

wkasimer said:


> I think that you're mistaken about George London .
> 
> Hotter only sang the role one season at Bayreuth, in 1956. Unfortunately, every source of that recording sounds pretty awful.


Oh, that's true! Thank you for the correction, I was probably doing something else concurrently and mixed the names up.


----------



## wkasimer

Woodduck said:


> For me that would have to be a performance with enough character and energy to make it greater than the sum of its vocal parts.


Which is exactly what this performance represents. I believe that it's on Spotify.


----------



## annaw

Woodduck said:


> For me that would have to be a performance with enough character and energy to make it greater than the sum of its vocal parts. Windgassen, Adam, Greindl and Stolze are all admirable artists, but none of them have timbres that strike me as especially attractive.


Regarding the vocal beauty I find Stolze the most problematic of the four, although his generally clear dictation and very 'playful' singing was a good fit for David's character. The fact that Stolze was singing David escaped my attention when I started listening to the recording and for a very brief moment I was confused why I'm hearing Mime in _Die Meistersinger_.


----------



## Woodduck

wkasimer said:


> Which is exactly what this performance represents. I believe that it's on Spotify.


I found it on YouTube. Dipping into it here and there, I can tell that it's a very vital performance. I just don't know how much Greindl I can take.


----------



## annaw

wkasimer said:


> Which is exactly what this performance represents. I believe that it's on Spotify.


I'm not sure but I think there're only Kna's 1950 and 1955 recordings of _Die Meistersinger_ on Spotify. It's possible though that Spotify has some country restrictions - I wouldn't be too surprised...


----------



## Itullian

I love this opera. 
Just finished this recording.
I thought it was very good. I had no problem with the mono sound.
I thought Kempe conducted well and chorus and playing were all fine.
Grummer was heavenly throughout. Her voice just soars and has warmth too.
The 3rd act quintet gave me chills.
Schock was good with plenty of power but could have a bit more finesse I thought.
I thought Franz's Sachs was excellent. Plenty of voice there and did well in the finale.
All in all a very fine Meister with Kempe and Grummer taking top honors.

For me though, my favorite recording is still Solti 2. Even though Van Dam is weak he gets by ok.
The recording and production is alive, warm and joyful.
The sound is a big reason I return to it most often.
The sound is just fantastic, warm and full.
The chorus is just amazing and so is the orchestra.
I love the sound of it all.
What Van Dam lacks in power, Heppner makes up for in beauty and finesse and Eva is fine as well.
What seals the deal for me is the awesome sound Decca provides.
At the end of the opera it always give me cihills and goosebumps.
2nd I think is the Kubelik which I love as well.










Still my favorite.


----------



## adriesba

Anyone familiar with this one?

View attachment 133125


As far as I know, this is one of the only recordings in which you can hear the nightwatchman's horn at the end of Act II. I'm not talking about the horn you hear after he says the hour, but the horn calls as the crowd disperses.


----------



## Barbebleu

I’m always astounded by the disparaging comments made about Stolze. Yes, he has a very distinctive voice, just like Callas but he was an extremely accurate and musical singer and brought very fine characterisations to everything he sang. Would that we had singers of his calibre a-plenty today!


----------



## Barbebleu

adriesba said:


> Anyone familiar with this one?
> 
> View attachment 133125
> 
> 
> As far as I know, this is one of the only recordings in which you can hear the nightwatchman's horn at the end of Act II. I'm not talking about the horn you hear after he says the hour, but the horn calls as the crowd disperses.


Is this not the one referred to in post #4403 by Annaw?


----------



## adriesba

Barbebleu said:


> Is this not the one referred to in post #4403 by Annaw?


Oh, I see. I think it is. I wasn't sure if it was different since there is more than one recording of this conducted by Knappertsbusch. But I see now the other earlier one has a different cast.


----------



## Woodduck

Barbebleu said:


> I'm always astounded by the disparaging comments made about Stolze. Yes, he has a very distinctive voice, just like Callas but he was an extremely accurate and musical singer and brought very fine characterisations to everything he sang. Would that we had singers of his calibre a-plenty today!


Would you agree that his tone makes him more of a "character actor" than a "leading man"? That's not an insult; some singers' voices, like some actors' faces, destine them for villains and supporting roles, which are sometimes more interesting than the heroes or romantic leads. Stolze was great at the kinds of parts he played, but I dare say you'd have a hard time finding people who think his voice was beautiful. I like his Mime, even if it's a bit exaggerated, but for David I like sweeter, more "innocent" voices such as Gerhard Unger's or Anton Dermota's.


----------



## annaw

Sorry if I expressed myself in a wrong way. I certainly didn’t want to give an impression as if I didn’t think that Stolze was a great singer or an utterly amazing artist. I think there are very few, if any, who are able to use their voice the same way as he did. My main point was that, as Woodduck said, his voice is just not the most beautiful or heroic one but as a character tenor it wasn’t ever supposed to be such. I’m just very used to hearing him as Loge or Mime and therefore hearing him sing David was something new to me. Even if I prefer a more “younger” sounding David, Stolze’s interpretation was still extremely enjoyable to listen to. In fact, it made me appreciate his vocal craftsmanship even more.


----------



## Barbebleu

Woodduck said:


> Would you agree that his tone makes him more of a "character actor" than a "leading man"? That's not an insult; some singers' voices, like some actors' faces, destine them for villains and supporting roles, which are sometimes more interesting than the heroes or romantic leads. Stolze was great at the kinds of parts he played, but I dare say you'd have a hard time finding people who think his voice was beautiful. I like his Mime, even if it's a bit exaggerated, but for David I like sweeter, more "innocent" voices such as Gerhard Unger's or Anton Dermota's.


Wouldn't disagree with you here. But I don't have the same antipathy to his timbre that a lot of others do. I love his Aegisth and his Herod, his Cassio and his Monostatos. Apparently he also sang Oberon in Midsummer Night's Dream although unfortunately it's not preserved on record.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> For me though, my favorite recording is still Solti 2. Even though Van Dam is weak he gets by ok.
> The recording and production is alive, warm and joyful.
> The sound is a big reason I return to it most often.
> The sound is just fantastic, warm and full.
> The chorus is just amazing and so is the orchestra.
> I love the sound of it all.
> What Van Dam lacks in power, Heppner makes up for in beauty and finesse and Eva is fine as well.
> What seals the deal for me is the awesome sound Decca provides.
> At the end of the opera it always give me cihills and goosebumps.
> 2nd I think is the Kubelik which I love as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Still my favorite.


This takes time for me to adjust to the overpowering forte music sections with orchestra and choral, Solti with his CSO in complete control of final sound quality, during the other 95% of music score Solti has charm and new found insights to go with a lush modern sound quality

I just noticed that the MET video Meister has same Eva & Walther as Solti II recording, with James Morris as Sachs (instead of Van Dam)


----------



## Sintolt

I was there...
It was the last of four performances, on December 17, 1983. Anne Evans replaced Marita Napier who sang the three first performances.


----------



## Woodduck

Sintolt said:


> I was there...
> It was the last of four performances, on December 17, 1983. Anne Evans replaced Marita Napier who sang the three first performances.


Just curious: did you or Wittig die first, or did you kill each other simultaneously?


----------



## Itullian

Anyone have this one?


----------



## Barbebleu

Yes I do This is Vienna 1955. I haven't listened to it yet. I also have Reiner doing Meistersinger from New York, January 10th 1953. It also remains unheard!! I know. If and when I ever get round to them I'll let the forum know.


----------



## Bill H.

wkasimer said:


> I think that you're mistaken about George London .
> 
> Hotter only sang the role one season at Bayreuth, in 1956. Unfortunately, every source of that recording sounds pretty awful.


It seems the only decently captured performance of Hotter as Sachs is the 1949 one from Munich. I really enjoy it, but the Eva in that one is no Grümmer.


----------



## DarkAngel

Bill H. said:


> It seems the only decently captured performance of Hotter as Sachs is the 1949 one from Munich. I really enjoy it, but the Eva in that one is no Grümmer.


I really love that Sachs performance, Hotter is completely animated and delightful portrayal, vocally this has to compete for best sung Sachs on disc, the final empassioned oration to the crowd (after prize song) to honor german heritage and its artists has me ready to sign up for young meister training

This set pushed me over the top to purchase Pristine steaming service since the cost of this 4CD set alone was over half the annual streaming fee.....

















I have no problem with Greindl's Sachs of early 1960s Bayreuth Meisters (recently discussed here), but it pales in comparison with this giant


----------



## Barbebleu

I’ve started listening to the Vienna 1955 Meistersinger. It’s alright but I wouldn’t say it is any better than a dozen others I’ve heard. If I didn’t already have it I would be in no rush to get it!


----------



## wkasimer

Bill H. said:


> It seems the only decently captured performance of Hotter as Sachs is the 1949 one from Munich. I really enjoy it, but the Eva in that one is no Grümmer.


And Treptow as Stolzing is certainly no Heppner.


----------



## annaw

DarkAngel said:


> This set pushed me over the top to purchase Pristine steaming service since the cost of this 4CD set alone was over half the annual streaming fee.....


I also decided to get Pristine streaming and it's a bliss - just listened to Krauss '53 Das Rheingold and it was delightful. I especially liked Uhde as Donner and Greindl as Fafner. I think that the contrast between the voices of Hotter and Greindl gave a nice effect and emphasised the difference between the characters.


----------



## annaw

I'm in the middle of the second act and really enjoying it. What is the general opinion Kna's Bayreuth Walküre recordings - how much does the singing/vocal quality vary?


----------



## The Conte

annaw said:


> I'm in the middle of the second act and really enjoying it. What is the general opinion Kna's Bayreuth Walküre recordings - how much does the singing/vocal quality vary?


Quite a bit because there's a lot of variation in terms of the casting of Siegmund and Sieglinde. That 58 is my favourite of his Walkures because I love Vickers (even though his final note of act one goes awry) and I'm not convinced by Nilsson as Sieglinde (she is in 57?) The Kna 58 Ring is my favourite of his Bayreuth Rings overall.

N.


----------



## annaw

The Conte said:


> Quite a bit because there's a lot of variation in terms of the casting of Siegmund and Sieglinde. That 58 is my favourite of his Walkures because I love Vickers (even though his final note of act one goes awry) and I'm not convinced by Nilsson as Sieglinde (she is in 57?) The Kna 58 Ring is my favourite of his Bayreuth Rings overall.
> 
> N.


I love Vickers as well, I have really enjoyed both his Tristan and Siegmund(s). I yet have to listen to his Parsifal in Kna's 1964 recording (I think it's his only one?).


----------



## WildThing

annaw said:


> I love Vickers as well, I have really enjoyed both his Tristan and Siegmund(s). I yet have to listen to his Parsifal in Kna's 1964 recording (I think it's his only one?).


His only one at Bayreuth, I believe. But he also recorded the role under Reginald Goodall.


----------



## wkasimer

annaw said:


> I love Vickers as well, I have really enjoyed both his Tristan and Siegmund(s). I yet have to listen to his Parsifal in Kna's 1964 recording (I think it's his only one?).


It's Vickers' only Parsifal with Knappertsbusch, but there are a couple of later non-Bayreuth performances that are worth hearing, particularly the Met performance with Rysanek, Moll, and Levine; this was issued by the Met as a subscriber bonus years ago. There was an earlier Met performance with Christa Ludwig and Martti Talvela, 1979 I think.


----------



## annaw

wkasimer said:


> It's Vickers' only Parsifal with Knappertsbusch, but there are a couple of later non-Bayreuth performances that are worth hearing, particularly the Met performance with Rysanek, Moll, and Levine; this was issued by the Met as a subscriber bonus years ago. There was an earlier Met performance with Christa Ludwig and Martti Talvela, 1979 I think.


That former Met recording sounds very interesting, did some googling and I suppose it's the 1985 one? I'll see whether I can get my hands on it somehow.


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## Barbebleu

He also sang it in Paris in 1976. Opera Depot have that performance and they are doing 50% off all Parsifals in their Karfreitag sale!

Horst Stein conducting btw.


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## DarkAngel

Another timely "Good Friday" release from Pristine XR, 54 Parsifal Met radio broadcast in really excellent sound quality. Hotters last wagner MET performance (ending a brief run during early 1950s) and he is in excellent form here in freshest voice as wise Gurnemanz, sound is so good I am hard pressed to think of another mono 50s performance that better captures the color and nuance of Hotter's iconic voice, check it out HD sound sample:

https://www.pristineclassical.com/products/paco171

Astrid makes rare appearance as Kundry a role I would have thought she would gravitate towards, I love 1950s Varnay and this fills out her wagner catalog for me nicely, I have a CD version of this but nowhere near this sound quality. Svanholm with a beautiful lyric voice sings the pure fool, his style always appealed to me and unfortunately he was not present in 50s Bayreuth but did tour with Flagstad during this time for both live performance and recordings

The price is very high but again makes the case to consider Pristine XR steaming service, ever wonder why there was no RING or PARSIFAL radio broadcasts during 1940s when MET had greatest collection of Wagner singers ever under contract, Andrew Rose has the answer:



> When Texaco assumed the sponsorship of the radio broadcasts in 1940 an audience survey was undertaken to determine which were the most popular operas, and of Wagner's operas only _Tristan und Isolde_, _Die Walküre_ and _Lohengrin_ scored highly enough to be considered for regular broadcasts.


----------



## annaw

Barbebleu said:


> He also sang it in Paris in 1976. Opera Depot have that performance and they are doing 50% off all Parsifals in their Karfreitag sale!
> 
> Horst Stein conducting btw.


That's great! I found it yesterday while looking for recordings, good I didn't buy it then  .


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## Granate

Two new _Parsifals_ in my collection: MP3 Free Download of Bayreuth 1968 and FLAC Purchase of Bayreuth 1969.

Currently listening to my second favourite mono recording. I had not listened to it since the challenges 2 years ago. It's my annual Holy Friday listen.

One year ago, I was travelling by High Speed Train from Valencia to the South of Spain to visit my parents. Looking at the sunset through my window, I played the Bayreuth 1952 performance through the 5 hours of the trip. I knew I had to do something like this every year. It's very meaningful. Maybe as meaningful as those who love Bach's _Matthäus Passion._ Or is that perfect for Sunday instead? I'm atheist...

Today, instead of travelling, I'm cleaning the house with the speakers on so all neighbours can hear the First Transformation music while I take out the dirt from the WC. What a pleasant event to experience.










_On picture: Cover of Parsifal, Bayreuth 1954, Hans Knappertsbusch_


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## adriesba

OK, I know it's probably been mentioned on this thread before, but there are almost 300 pages in this thread, so finding what I'm looking for is difficult. :lol:

Which release of the Furtwängler _Ring_, the one with Flagstad, has the best sound quality? From what I know, there are apparently three or four different CD releases of it.

Also, what's this stuff I'm reading about Flagstad missing/skipping the high notes? I found one release on Google Play and listened to a few parts, but her notes sound fine to me.

And is there really no "Zurück vom Ring" at the end?!


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## Granate

Hello

I'm just sure about the SQ thing in the Scala Ring. Even if the Pristine remasters share the best sound picture, the Archipel CDs released back then do not get much behind. When the entire Ring was available, I would have considered it the best option.

My favourite of them is the Rheingold and it's still on Print in Archipel for a great price. I don't know about Flagstad but I can remember someone else said that there was no ZvR at the end of the Immolation Scene in this performance.


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## DarkAngel

adriesba said:


> OK, I know it's probably been mentioned on this thread before, but there are almost 300 pages in this thread, so finding what I'm looking for is difficult. :lol:
> 
> Which release of the Furtwängler _Ring_, the one with Flagstad, has the best sound quality? From what I know, there are apparently three or four different CD releases of it.


Granate is right that best commercial CDs of 50 La Scala Ring were from Archipel originally very cheap, but even if they were still all available I find the Pristine XR set a step above in sound quality, you can always check long HD sound samples at Pristine to judge for yourself.......

https://www.pristineclassical.com/products/paco091


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## adriesba

DarkAngel said:


> Granate is right that best commercial CDs of 50 La Scala Ring were from Archipel originally very cheap, but even if they were still all available I still find the Pristine XR set a step above in sound quality, you can always check long HD sound samples at Pristine to judge for yourself.......
> 
> https://www.pristineclassical.com/products/paco091


Oh my! The ambient stereo sounds good, but if the downloads cost that much, I can't imagine what the discs would cost if they were selling them at the moment!


----------



## annaw

I just finished listening to the Krauss' 1953 _Die Walküre_ recording and it was beautiful. I feel that the expressive conducting makes it really stand out, especially when accompanied with Hotter's Wotan (and Pristine remastering - an amazing thing). It doesn't give a 'dragging' feeling at all - on the contrary, I felt moved by it, something that I surprisingly rarely feel while I'm just listening and not watching an opera. Now continuing with Kna's 1956 _Die Walküre_, I'm still very interested to hear Windgassen's Siegmund. I'm not sure but I don't recall any recordings with Windgassen, where he gave a really bad performance or had a 'bad day' (correct me if I'm wrong ). I feel that with him it more often comes down to his interpretation which either fits or doesn't fit the role. His recognisable voice probably plays its role as well, though I've really grown to love it.


----------



## DarkAngel

annaw said:


> I just finished listening to the Krauss' 1953 _Die Walküre_ recording and it was beautiful. I feel that the expressive conducting makes it really stand out, especially when accompanied with Hotter's Wotan (and Pristine remastering - an amazing thing). It doesn't give a 'dragging' feeling at all - on the contrary, I felt moved by it, something that I surprisingly rarely feel while I'm just listening and not watching an opera. Now continuing with Kna's 1956 _Die Walküre_, I'm still very interested to hear Windgassen's Siegmund. I'm not sure but I don't recall any recordings with Windgassen, where he gave a really bad performance or had a 'bad day' (correct me if I'm wrong ). I feel that with him it more often comes down to his interpretation which either fits or doesn't fit the role. His recognisable voice probably plays its role as well, though I've really grown to love it.


Wagner family would have surely liked to have Krauss continue at Bayreuth, but fate would not have it and Krauss died the following year, he does also have a great Parsifal from the same 53 season


----------



## Granate

annaw said:


> m not sure but I don't recall any recordings with Windgassen, where he gave a really bad performance or had a 'bad day' (correct me if I'm wrong )


I agree that his performances are just stellar for me, but there are some that I would not try to listen again: his 1951 debut in _Parsifal_ and his late days singing Siegfried in _Götterdämmerung,_ recorded in the 1967 Bayreuth season.


----------



## annaw

Granate said:


> I agree that his performances are just stellar for me, but there are some that I would not try to listen again: his 1951 debut in _Parsifal_ and his late days singing Siegfried in _Götterdämmerung,_ recorded in the 1967 Bayreuth season.


That's interesting! Is the 1951 one the Bayreuth _Parsifal_ with Knappertsbusch?


----------



## Granate

annaw said:


> That's interesting! Is the 1951 one the Bayreuth _Parsifal_ with Knappertsbusch?


Yes it is. It's down in my Parsifal Challenge that both Kna's ponderous and slow pace becomes irritationg, as well as Windgassen's first take on the role with a much different voice that would be known in the 50s. I do notice the difference. I don't like it. The rest, especially Martha Mödl, are still superb.


----------



## annaw

Granate said:


> Yes it is. It's down in my Parsifal Challenge that both Kna's ponderous and slow pace becomes irritationg, as well as Windgassen's first take on the role with a much different voice that would be known in the 50s. I do notice the difference. I don't like it. The rest, especially Martha Mödl, are still superb.


I know some regard it very highly. I listened to it last time when I was very far from being able to appreciate mono recordings, but I should certainly give it another shot now that I'm a lot more used to the sound and it doesn't keep me from enjoying the music and the singing. At least to hear the rest of the cast and I still appreciate Kna's conducting very highly.


----------



## Granate

annaw said:


> I know some regard it very highly. I listened to it last time when I was very far from being able to appreciate mono recordings, but I should certainly give it another shot now that I'm a lot more used to the sound and it doesn't keep me from enjoying the music and the singing. At least to hear the rest of the cast and I still appreciate Kna's conducting very highly.


If you want to explore other Parsifals, I would really recommend you to purchase at half price the performances of *Bayreuth 1966, 1967, 1969 and free download of 1968.* The Boulez performances are fast but never to the point of rushing over the highlights like 1970 on DG. 1967 has greyish SQ but an astonishing cast. 1966 surprises be as Varnay's Kundry hits all the spots as if she was 15 years younger (certainly those Brunnhildes left her sore by 1958). All in *OperaDepot.*

I managed to read that Otto Klemperer (who had talk to conduct Tristan und Isolde but bc of another manic crisis he had to call it off), supported Pierre Boulez's early conducting career and attended the 1966 debut in Bayreuth.


----------



## Barbebleu

On DA’s recommendation I treated myself to Parsifal New York 1954 from Pristine. Download of course. The sound is just excellent and so far ( midway through Act 1) I am very impressed.

Of course I needed another Parsifal like I needed open heart surgery without anaesthetic but hey ho, life is short and these days more so. That brings me up to 57. Yeah, bonkers I know but every one of them reveals something new each time I listen. Parsifal always moves me to tears and I lost a good friend and former colleague on Monday to Covid-19 so I suppose it will have even more of an emotional impact on me. He was only 52 so stay safe everyone and hopefully we’ll all be here in six months time arguing the toss about what we all love.


----------



## howlingfantods

Barbebleu said:


> On DA's recommendation I treated myself to Parsifal New York 1954 from Pristine. Download of course. The sound is just excellent and so far ( midway through Act 1) I am very impressed.


I've just listened to the sample--the sound quality improvement over the Walhall edition is very impressive. I don't particularly care for Svanholm's or Varnay's performances on this one but it might be worth getting for me just to have a Hotter Gurnemanz performance in better voice than on the Kna versions, in sound pretty close to as good as the Kna 1962....


----------



## Admiral

Appropos of nothing I dipped into some Boris Christoff, which lead to videos of Russian basso songs - segue to Elly Ameling - segue to the *Furtwangler Tristan* and where the hell do you go after that?

Salzburg is also showing streaming opera videos - watched a bit of the Pagliacci with Kaufman and a baritone who didn't take the G in the Prologue...


----------



## DarkAngel

Admiral said:


> Appropos of nothing I dipped into some Boris Christoff, which lead to videos of Russian basso songs - segue to Elly Ameling - segue to the *Furtwangler Tristan* and *where the hell do you go after that*?


Judging by your avatar, castle monsalvat.........


----------



## annaw

I feel I'm slowly developing the _Ring_ obsession again, but I don't mind at all, especially during this quarantine thing. Finished the 1956 Kna _Die Walküre_. It's very interesting to listen to Hotter's different interpretations in different recordings - shows how complex Wagner's operas are and how different aspects of the same situation can be emphasised differently. I really liked Windgassen. I still prefer Vickers as Siegmund though, not because Windgassen wasn't superb, but I think his voice fits Siegfried's character just better than Siegmund's. It probably also comes down to how I'm used to understand these two characters - Siegmund's difficult life, bitter-sweet love story with Sieglinde and his willingness to die just makes him feel somewhat more humanly dramatic compared to Siegfried's courageous though more naive and wild spirit. I think Windgassen's voice is perfect to convey Siegfried's character and Vickers's to convey Siegmund's. I don't know if it's just me but I wasn't 100% sure about Milinkovic's Fricka - compared to Varnay's Brünhilde, she sounded lighter and I would even say younger.


----------



## Woodduck

annaw said:


> I feel I'm slowly developing the _Ring_ obsession again, but I don't mind at all, especially during this quarantine thing. Finished the 1956 Kna _Die Walküre_. It's very interesting to listen to Hotter's different interpretations in different recordings - shows how complex Wagner's operas are and how different aspects of the same situation can be emphasised differently. I really liked Windgassen. I still prefer Vickers as Siegmund though, not because Windgassen wasn't superb, but I think his voice fits Siegfried's character just better than Siegmund's. It probably also comes down to how I'm used to understand these two characters - Siegmund's difficult life, bitter-sweet love story with Sieglinde and his willingness to die just makes him feel somewhat more humanly dramatic compared to Siegfried's courageous though more naive and wild spirit. I think Windgassen's voice is perfect to convey Siegfried's character and Vickers's to convey Siegmund's. I don't know if it's just me but I wasn't 100% sure about Milinkovic's Fricka - compared to Varnay's Brünhilde, she sounded lighter and I would even say younger.


I've always felt that Vickers had the ideal Siegmund voice. His full voice was truly heroic, but his mezza voce had a haunted quality that made him sound lonely and vulnerable. As for Varnay, who _doesn't_ sound younger and lighter?


----------



## annaw

Woodduck said:


> I've always felt that Vickers had the ideal Siegmund voice. His full voice was truly heroic, but his mezza voce had a haunted quality that made him sound lonely and vulnerable. As for Varnay, who _doesn't_ sound younger and lighter?


True, that's a fair point, let me rephrase. Compared to Varnay's Brünhilde, she sounded strikingly lighter and younger. I guess that works better .


----------



## zxxyxxz

First let me admit that Windgassen is my all time favourite singer. To the extent that I don't listen to full ring cycles anymore, just a composite ring. Life's too short to listen to singers I don't enjoy.

So bias out the way, in regards to Windgassen's Siegmund, I personally think his best performance is on Furtwangler's Rome Ring.


----------



## annaw

zxxyxxz said:


> First let me admit that Windgassen is my all time favourite singer. To the extent that I don't listen to full ring cycles anymore, just a composite ring. Life's too short to listen to singers I don't enjoy.
> 
> So bias out the way, in regards to Windgassen's Siegmund, I personally think his best performance is on Furtwangler's Rome Ring.


I've actually found it very interesting and rewarding to listen to different recordings, even when all the singers aren't equally good, it gives a good understanding of the characters and different perspectives. The main problem is that I sometimes get a bad conscience of listening to Wagner without libretto - I long for the moment when I know it well enough to listen without. For the time being, it can take up a lot of time but listening to different recordings has been absolutely worth it!


----------



## zxxyxxz

See I have the opposite problem, I long for the day when I can actually sit down and listen along with the libretto!


----------



## DarkAngel

zxxyxxz said:


> First let me admit that Windgassen is my all time favourite singer. To the extent that I don't listen to full ring cycles anymore, just a composite ring. Life's too short to listen to singers I don't enjoy.
> 
> So bias out the way, in regards to Windgassen's Siegmund, I personally think his best performance is on Furtwangler's Rome Ring.


I must take the bait for the team, what opera performances make up your current "composite" Ring? (knowing Windgassen will be a common link)


----------



## zxxyxxz

Ok my current composite ring is as follows:

Das Rheingold Böhm Bayereuth 1965 (OperaDepot)

Die Walküre Furtwangler RAI Rome 1953 (Pristine)

Siegfried Böhm Bayereuth 1965 (OperaDepot)

Götterdämmerung Maazel Bayereuth 1968 (OperaDepot)

I will admit to not liking Birgit Nilsson as Brunhilde and instead would rather have Martha Mödl. But the 65 Siegfried is just so exciting and for me perfect in other ways that I accept Nilsson as Brunhilde and to be fair she is good just not my cup of tea.


----------



## wkasimer

zxxyxxz said:


> So bias out the way, in regards to Windgassen's Siegmund, I personally think his best performance is on Furtwangler's Rome Ring.


I wish that he and Suthaus had switched roles. Wingassen's somewhat lighter voice is less suited to Siegmund, which benefits from Suthaus' heavier, baritonal timbre. Conversely, that heavier sound doesn't work as well for Siegfried.


----------



## annaw

zxxyxxz said:


> Ok my current composite ring is as follows:
> 
> Das Rheingold Böhm Bayereuth 1965 (OperaDepot)
> 
> Die Walküre Furtwangler RAI Rome 1953 (Pristine)
> 
> Siegfried Böhm Bayereuth 1965 (OperaDepot)
> 
> Götterdämmerung Maazel Bayereuth 1968 (OperaDepot)
> 
> I will admit to not liking Birgit Nilsson as Brunhilde and instead would rather have Martha Mödl. But the 65 Siegfried is just so exciting and for me perfect in other ways that I accept Nilsson as Brunhilde and to be fair she is good just not my cup of tea.


Pardon a potentially silly question, but how good is OperaDepot recording quality compared to Myto's, Orfeo's or Walhall's? (I know this probably also depends a lot on whether it's CD, MP3 or FLAC.)


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## zxxyxxz

I only buy MP3 or rip cds into MP3 but i find their sound quality pretty good. I think the other labels sound better on actual speakers. 

But i never find an operadepot recording tiring to listen to. 

My opinion, others will vary.


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## zxxyxxz

wkasimer said:


> I wish that he and Suthaus had switched roles. Wingassen's somewhat lighter voice is less suited to Siegmund, which benefits from Suthaus' heavier, baritonal timbre. Conversely, that heavier sound doesn't work as well for Siegfried.


Such a change would have resulted in quite a Ring!


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## Granate

Hello zxxyxxz! My question however is... how does the 1965 and 1968 Ring Performances compare to the Philips recordings? I own that set and I really like it. Nilsson plays what is my favourite role for her (I don't usually stand her Isolde). Especially interested in the _Rheingold_ since it's the recording I like the least from the commercial set.

Your username reminds me of a Grime artist I used to listen to a lot. I had forgotten his music.


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## zxxyxxz

Granate said:


> Hello zxxyxxz! My question however is... how does the 1965 and 1968 Ring Performances compare to the Philips recordings? I own that set and I really like it. Nilsson plays what is my favourite role for her (I don't usually stand her Isolde). Especially interested in the _Rheingold_ since it's the recording I like the least from the commercial set.
> 
> Your username reminds me of a Grime artist I used to listen to a lot. I had forgotten his music.


Hmm ok on the 1965 OperaDepot, the main difference for me aside from some minor cast differences is I found the commercial set to be tiring and difficult to get through. (I have the Eloquence set) I find the sound on OperaDepot to be of slightly lesser quality but has a much more exciting quality. The biggest difference is in Siegfried where the Wanderer is I believe Josef Griendl. (I am not able to check the liner notes at the moment.) I like his wanderer, contrasts nicely after Theo Adam's youthful god and Ferdinand Frantz's imperial god.

For the 68 Götterdammerung I think its Windgassen's best performance. For me its easily his most youthful, passionate and heroic. Helped most likely by not leading in Siegfried. Gladys Kutcha sings admirably (Soprano is my least favourite voice), it is also Griendl's best Hagen. While the sound is good there are a few tiny patches of annoying static.

I can't remember where my Username is from, its one I used elsewhere before.


----------



## annaw

zxxyxxz said:


> I only buy MP3 or rip cds into MP3 but i find their sound quality pretty good. I think the other labels sound better on actual speakers.
> 
> But i never find an operadepot recording tiring to listen to.
> 
> My opinion, others will vary.


Thanks! That's good to know - I've been considering buying 1960 Kempe's _Ring_ from OperaDepot and was wondering whether there's much difference in sound quality.


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## Admiral

I have a ton of Opera Depot CDs and a few downloads: the sound varies but the website always has samples and they are quite up-front about the quality of each recording. As a general rule they are concerned more about archiving important recordings than sound quality as such - I just posted in another thread that I found a 1970 Manon with Sills and Gedda that was amazing and not available otherwise


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## adriesba

If you get Opera Depot's free downloads, make sure you get the whole thing. I downloaded the _Ring_ recording they put out for download a little bit ago. I found out well afterward that much of the second half of _Das Rheingold_ tracks were missing!


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## Barbebleu

adriesba said:


> If you get Opera Depot's free downloads, make sure you get the whole thing. I downloaded the _Ring_ recording they put out for download a little bit ago. I found out well afterward that much of the second half of _Das Rheingold_ tracks were missing!


Andy at Opera Depot is very nice. Email him and he'll give you a link to redownload the missing stuff.

He has always sorted any problems I have had.


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## annaw

Bought Kna 1954 _Parsifal_ and 1952 Hamburg _Das Rheingold_ from OperaDepot. I'm very excited about Hotter's Amfortas .


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## zxxyxxz

annaw said:


> Bought Kna 1954 _Parsifal_ and 1952 Hamburg _Das Rheingold_ from OperaDepot. I'm very excited about Hotter's Amfortas .


Good choices! I do like the 1954 Parsifal, in fact I will have to revisit it next time I listen to Parsifal.


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## Seattleoperafan

https://player.pristine.eastsideco.io/app/browse/artists/240 I have been dying to have a listen to Pristine Classical's 1950 Gotterdammerung with Flagstad and Furtwangler, but I am too cheap to buy since I can't play CD's in my car. Jesus sent me this link just in time for my 65th birthday. You get 10 free listens!!!! I can hear a good bit of it now!!!!!! The cost per month might be worth it.


----------



## annaw

zxxyxxz said:


> Good choices! I do like the 1954 Parsifal, in fact I will have to revisit it next time I listen to Parsifal.


I couldn't resist the temptation and listened to Amfortas's final monologue, I'm amazed, how can a person even produce such a sound as Hotter??


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## wkasimer

annaw said:


> Bought Kna 1954 _Parsifal_ and 1952 Hamburg _Das Rheingold_ from OperaDepot. I'm very excited about Hotter's Amfortas .


The Schüchter Rheingold is one of my favorites - it's about as well cast as any, and the sound is excellent (at least on the CD set I have).

Much as I enjoy Hotter's Amfortas, I think that he was always better suited to Gurnemanz.


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## DarkAngel

Seattleoperafan said:


> https://player.pristine.eastsideco.io/app/browse/artists/240 I have been dying to have a listen to Pristine Classical's 1950 Gotterdammerung with Flagstad and Furtwangler, but I am too cheap to buy since I can't play CD's in my car. Jesus sent me this link just in time for my 65th birthday. You get 10 free listens!!!! I can hear a good bit of it now!!!!!! *The cost per month might be worth it.*


Many people (like me) will quickly come to realize that for the cost of a few opera purchases you can subscribe to annual steaming and save money, also the orchestral classical catalog is very impressive and Rose is getting even better results with newest technology, no regrets for me.....


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## Barbebleu

I’m listening to Der Fliegende Holländer, Covent Garden 1937 conducted by Fritz Reiner. Excellent stuff. Flagstad as Senta and Jansen as the Dutchman are in superb voice and act so well together. Ludwig Weber as Daland is as near a perfect portrayal as one might wish. Given that Senta is supposed to be quite young all too often Daland is often portrayed as a nearly decrepit old man. Not so with Weber. He sounds the way he ought to, late thirties and still youthful. Max Lorenz as Erik is a joy. Sadly a large chunk of his part, namely his duet with a Senta, is missing. Even with the missing music this is a terrific Holländer and if you love great Wagner singing this should be in your collection.


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## zxxyxxz

annaw said:


> Bought Kna 1954 _Parsifal_ and 1952 Hamburg _Das Rheingold_ from OperaDepot. I'm very excited about Hotter's Amfortas .


Thanks for the reminder about the 1952 Hamburg Das Rheingold. For a long time it was my favourite, however I felt "Bin ich nun frei" lacked the venom I prefer from Neidlinger. However after a relisten this morning I'm not sure why I thought that!


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## zxxyxxz

As it is Friday which means Tristan und Isolde day in my little world (Unless I am on holiday) I thought I would share my favourite recording which to me is near perfection.

The Bayereuth 1958, Orfeo release.

All the voices are clearly balanced for me with the orchestra. Windgassen is not overpowered by Nilsson in the love duet, or by anyone for that matter. 

This is my favourite recording of Nilsson her Isolde is so beautifully sung, the tone is youthful without anything I feel is shrieking or grating on the ears.

All the other parts are wonderfully sung. Sawallisch gives an exciting and dramatic drive to the orchestera in particular his explosive climax to the end of the love duet. 

There is stage noise but its very minor, in fact for this reason I would recommend the Orfeo release over the Myoto as the loud noises at the begining of the love duet are reduced.


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## Granate

zxxyxxz said:


> As it is Friday which means Tristan und Isolde day in my little world (Unless I am on holiday) I thought I would share my favourite recording which to me is near perfection.
> 
> The Bayereuth 1958, Orfeo release.


Great item in your collection. That and the Bayreuth 1960 Meistersinger, plus an upcoming Furtwängler Rome Walküre, should complete my Windgassen Bayreuth Canon. I already have the Böhm recording and I enjoyed it a month ago, but this has my absolute favourite Windgassen rendition of Tristan. Also, better picked supporting cast than the premiere. Maybe I should also get the Maazel 1960 Lohengrin, or the Keilberth 1953 would do.

The 1960 Neidlinger Telramund looks much better on paper than ears. It's like that hot new record on trend that looks and sounds intriguing every time you hear about it, but each time you put yourself to listen to it it disappoints you, and it's an ongoing cycle of desire. I first experience this with Jessy Lanza's debut record.


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## zxxyxxz

Despite the recording quality which is only poor in a few places and your ear quickly adjusts I currently prefer the Bayereuth 1956 for Meistersingers as opposed to 1960.


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## Barbebleu

I meant to post a few thoughts about the New York 1954 Parsifal when I finished it on Tuesday. Wonderful. The SQ is just excellent. It’s a pleasure to hear Hotter in good voice with no trace of the woofy hoot (technical term) that plagued him in later years. Clearly a low pollen count in NY that year. He is a very fine Gurnemanz and Varnay is more than adequate as Kundry. Lawrence Davidson, who was a last minute replacement, as Klingsor is very good given that he had to step in at extremely short notice to replace an indisposed Gerhard Pechner who took ill during Act 1.

Set Svanholm is a good, if not brilliant, Parsifal. To my ears he just doesn’t quite capture the ecstatic otherworldliness required in Act 3 but he’s not the worst by any means. 

The real hi-light for me is George London. His Amfortas is immense. Such a pity that his career was cut short. 

Stiedry gives a fine reading of this complex score and the orchestra are very good. 

All in all a terrific Parsifal that should have a place in every Parsifal lover’s collection.


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## wkasimer

Barbebleu said:


> I meant to post a few thoughts about the New York 1954 Parsifal when I finished it on Tuesday.
> 
> All in all a terrific Parsifal that should have a place in every Parsifal lover's collection.


Are there cuts?


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## Barbebleu

wkasimer said:


> Are there cuts?


It's the Met! Sadly there are a few. A particularly nasty one in act 3 during Gurnemanz's passage a few bars after O Gnade! Höchstes Heil! resuming at Hier in der Waldeck'. None in Act 2 and I can't be sure of Act 1 because I wasn't following the score then. Mea culpa!


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## annaw

I decided to start listening to Kna 1958 _Ring_ from the beginning. I had a plan to finish Act III of _Die Walküre_, _Siegfried_ and _Götterdämmerung_ in one day (is Wagner overdose possible?) - maybe a bit too ambitious project but super insightful despite that. Following Wotan's transformation through the operas is really fascinating, especially with Hotter's skilful dramatic portrayal.

He brings out small but still rather important details such as the cold firmness of Wotan in the beginning of Act III of _Die Walküre_ and his emotional devastation and sadness in the farewell. I think that Hotter's "Leb wohl" with Kna's conducting comes very near to Wagner's own description of the final scene: "everything in this scene is so subtle, so deep, so subdued".

The same thing is great about Windgassen's Siegfried - he manages to open the more tragic side of the character while not neglecting the main naive brash essence of him.


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## Woodduck

annaw said:


> I decided to start listening to Kna 1958 _Ring_ from the beginning. I had a plan to finish Act III of _Die Walküre_, _Siegfried_ and _Götterdämmerung_ in one day (is Wagner overdose possible?) - maybe a bit too ambitious project but super insightful despite that.


That's the sort of thing I would do fifty years ago. Do it now while you still can.


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## bz3

Woodduck said:


> That's the sort of thing I would do fifty years ago. Do it now while you still can.


I think television destroyed my mind. I still read novels in a single day (on occasion) but I've never watched more than one opera in a day and I rarely watch/listen to an entire opera in one sitting. I blame Obama/Trump for me being a millenial.


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## annaw

bz3 said:


> I think television destroyed my mind. I still read novels in a single day (on occasion) but I've never watched more than one opera in a day and I rarely watch/listen to an entire opera in one sitting. I blame Obama/Trump for me being a millenial.


Wagner is a weird obsession. I feel it comes and goes periodically while maintaining a certain baseline level all the time. I cannot come up with any other way to explain the sudden urge to listen to the whole _Ring_ in one go...

By the way, Opera Depot has -60% sale, any recommendations? I was thinking about 1971 Karajan Salzburg Ring but I'm not sure about Dieskau as Wotan. Also, does anyone has experience whether 1960 Kempe is a lot different from Myto set regarding the sound quality? There's a FLAC download of it that would still be a lot cheaper than buying all the Mytos separately.


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## Granate

annaw

I was about to by the Kempe 1960 Ring at Opera Depot. SQ is just as good or better than Myto. It's almost the one to have.

But I thought that was too much money at once and I preferred to spend it on others, especially the two recommendations to complement the Böhm Philips Ring.


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## Barbebleu

annaw said:


> Wagner is a weird obsession. I feel it comes and goes periodically while maintaining a certain baseline level all the time. I cannot come up with any other way to explain the sudden urge to listen to the whole _Ring_ in one go...
> 
> By the way, Opera Depot has -60% sale, any recommendations? I was thinking about 1971 Karajan Salzburg Ring but I'm not sure about Dieskau as Wotan. Also, does anyone has experience whether 1960 Kempe is a lot different from Myto set regarding the sound quality? There's a FLAC download of it that would still be a lot cheaper than buying all the Mytos separately.


The Salzburg Ring is rather good. Karajan live is a much better bet than Karajan studio. At the price it's a steal.


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## DavidA

Barbebleu said:


> The Salzburg Ring is rather good. Karajan live is a much better bet than Karajan studio. At the price it's a steal.


What about the recording quality?


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## wkasimer

annaw said:


> By the way, Opera Depot has -60% sale, any recommendations? I was thinking about 1971 Karajan Salzburg Ring but I'm not sure about Dieskau as Wotan.


Based on the studio recording and the snippet on Opera Depot's site, DFD's Wotan is about what you'd expect - not really the right voice for the part, so he does a bit of huffing and puffing. Fortunately, he only sings the role in Rheingold. The cast for this Ring is virtually identical to Karajan's studio version - the most important change is that Jess Thomas sings Siegfried in both of the last two operas (no Brilioth in Gotterdammerung); there's also a different Woglinde. I've always wanted to hear this Ring, so I'll probably pull the trigger tonight.


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## Barbebleu

DavidA said:


> What about the recording quality?


It's a live recording, originally broadcast on the radio I presume. I've heard worse. Btw, the four operas were the premieres from 1967 to 1970. The release order was Walküre 1967, Rheingold 1968, Siegfried 1969 and Götterdämmerung 1970.


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## Barbebleu

annaw said:


> Wagner is a weird obsession. I feel it comes and goes periodically while maintaining a certain baseline level all the time. I cannot come up with any other way to explain the sudden urge to listen to the whole _Ring_ in one go...
> 
> By the way, Opera Depot has -60% sale, any recommendations? I was thinking about 1971 Karajan Salzburg Ring but I'm not sure about Dieskau as Wotan. Also, does anyone has experience whether 1960 Kempe is a lot different from Myto set regarding the sound quality? There's a FLAC download of it that would still be a lot cheaper than buying all the Mytos separately.


Btw I should point out that the four operas are the premieres from the Salzburg Ring Cycle released over four years from 1968 to 1970. The order was Walküre, Rheingold, Siegfried and Götterdämmerung.


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## Helgi

Well, I just bought some stuff; the above-mentioned Karajan Salzburg Ring and two Tristans, Böhm '67 and Karajan '72.

Granate, do you make your own covers for these? I'm a graphic designer as well and I have a hard time looking at these in my collection. The '54 Bayreuth Parsifal for example


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## annaw

Helgi said:


> Well, I just bought some stuff; the above-mentioned Karajan Salzburg Ring and two Tristans, Böhm '67 and Karajan '72.
> 
> Granate, do you make your own covers for these? I'm a graphic designer as well and I have a hard time looking at these in my collection. The '54 Bayreuth Parsifal for example


This is very off topic but Granate, your Mahler covers look amazing!!

Thank you all for your comments and recommendations!


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## howlingfantods

DavidA said:


> What about the recording quality?


Rheingold in good stereo sound, the other 3 in decent but slightly tubby and drab mono. A little disappointing considering the performance dates.

Honestly I would say not a great buy. I do tend to prefer live Karajan to studio, but the biggest problems with his studio Ring are the casting choices, that are largely the same as his Salzburg Ring.


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## Granate

Helgi said:


> Granate, do you make your own covers for these? I'm a graphic designer as well and I have a hard time looking at these in my collection. The '54 Bayreuth Parsifal for example.


I have covers made for the Böhm DG Tristan and Karajan Warner too. For Bayreuth Parsifal I made the 1952 cover, which is very basic and just based on typography, but I could use the photoshop file to do the 1954 one if you want it.

I have nothing made for the Salzburg Ring. No idea came to mind during that time. I recently had ideas to redo the Blomstedt Dresden Beethoven cycle, which LP designs are really simple and I could do my particular tweak.

Download this image. It's the official edit of the DG Tristan. Found on Twitter. At least it's much better than mine.


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## howlingfantods

Granate said:


> I have covers made for the Böhm DG Tristan and Karajan Warner too. For Bayreuth Parsifal I made the 1952 cover, which is very basic and just based on typography, but I could use the photoshop file to do the 1954 one if you want it.
> 
> I have nothing made for the Salzburg Ring. No idea came to mind during that time. I recently had ideas to redo the Blomstedt Dresden Beethoven cycle, which LP designs are really simple and I could do my particular tweak.


you should contact andrew rose and see if he would give you a discount on cds in exchange for some graphic design help on album covers--Pristine's covers range from bland to astonishingly ugly.


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## Helgi

Granate said:


> I have covers made for the Böhm DG Tristan and Karajan Warner too. For Bayreuth Parsifal I made the 1952 cover, which is very basic and just based on typography, but I could use the photoshop file to do the 1954 one if you want it.
> 
> I have nothing made for the Salzburg Ring. No idea came to mind during that time. I recently had ideas to redo the Blomstedt Dresden Beethoven cycle, which LP designs are really simple and I could do my particular tweak.


Thanks, but I think I'll set up a simple template for myself to replace the Opera Depot covers. And another one for Pristine XR!


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## Granate

howlingfantods said:


> you should contact andrew rose and see if he would give you a discount on cds in exchange for some graphic design help on album covers--Pristine's covers range from bland to astonishingly ugly.


I think I talked about this years ago. Let me try to find the post.


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## Helgi

Yeah it's a shame with Pristine, especially considering the high quality of the products themselves — and they're not cheap, either.

They would do well to have a basic, easy-to-do house style like Testament.


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## annaw

I listened to some excerpts of youtube and Spotify and started wondering - which Hotter's Bayreuth Wotan was the best one or is it even possible to determine?


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## Helgi

That's twenty minutes well spent, I think.


















I have some stuff on my wishlist at Opera Depot that I'm mulling over:

- Lohengrin, Jochum '54 (Windgassen, Nilsson, Varnay)
- Tannhäuser, Sawallisch '61 (Windgassen, de los Angeles, Bumbry)
- Der Ring, Kempe '60

Any of these three I should avoid?

Now that I'm getting seriously into Wagner, all these voices from the past are so exciting. It's like a treasure hunt.


----------



## Granate

Helgi said:


> Any of these three I should avoid?
> 
> Now that I'm getting seriously into Wagner, all these voices from the past are so exciting. It's like a treasure hunt.


Only the Lohengrin. Seriously. Not all Nilsson did was awesome. Please, stop it.

Love the cover


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## Helgi

Haha. Very well, what about Sawallisch '62 with Thomas, Silja and Varnay?


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## zxxyxxz

I recommend the 1954 Lohengrin, it is my favourite version. However I can't comment on Opera Depot sound quality. Mine is on Andromeda.

The 1961 Tannhauser I find merely Ok. It has Windgassen's best Act 3 but I find him better in other recordings. The main thing I dislike about this recording is the female cast. However others rate it higher than me. Again my version is not Opera Depot so I can't comment on sound quality. Mine is on Orfeo.

That said I do like opera depot very much. I got these recordings before I learnt of Opera Depot.


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## Seattleoperafan

Seattleoperafan said:


> https://player.pristine.eastsideco.io/app/browse/artists/240 I have been dying to have a listen to Pristine Classical's 1950 Gotterdammerung with Flagstad and Furtwangler, but I am too cheap to buy since I can't play CD's in my car. Jesus sent me this link just in time for my 65th birthday. You get 10 free listens!!!! I can hear a good bit of it now!!!!!! The cost per month might be worth it.


I tried this, but for free you don't get the best bits from Gotterdammerung, which is what I was interested in.


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## annaw

....................


----------



## annaw

zxxyxxz said:


> I recommend the 1954 Lohengrin, it is my favourite version. However I can't comment on Opera Depot sound quality. Mine is on Andromeda.
> 
> The 1961 Tannhauser I find merely Ok. It has Windgassen's best Act 3 but I find him better in other recordings. The main thing I dislike about this recording is the female cast. However others rate it higher than me. Again my version is not Opera Depot so I can't comment on sound quality. Mine is on Orfeo.
> 
> That said I do like opera depot very much. I got these recordings before I learnt of Opera Depot.


Personally I really liked the 1961 Sawallisch (haven't listened to Opera Depot recording though) and I generally tend to prefer Dresden version. I think it might be one of the best if not the absolute best one I've heard. I haven't had an opportunity to listen to Melchior's Pristine recording yet, that might change my preferences a bit .


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## wkasimer

Helgi said:


> I have some stuff on my wishlist at Opera Depot that I'm mulling over:
> 
> - Lohengrin, Jochum '54 (Windgassen, Nilsson, Varnay)


I wouldn't avoid it, but it's not essential, particularly if you have the recording from the previous year, with Steber as Elsa.



> - Tannhäuser, Sawallisch '61 (Windgassen, de los Angeles, Bumbry)


I have this on Orfeo, and it's one of my favorite recordings of the opera. Windgassen is in good voice, the women are excellent, and it's really one of Fischer-Dieskau's best roles.



> - Der Ring, Kempe '60


I only know the Siegfried and Gotterdammerung from this cycle, both of which are excellent - Hopf in good voice, and strong casts around him. I've avoided Walkure because I don't need Jerome Hines' Wotan, Töpper's Fricka, or another (and late career) Varnay Brunnhilde. If I were choosing a complete Kempe Ring, it would probably be 1961, if only for Milligan's Wanderer, but to be honest, I don't think that any of Kempe's Rings are really essential unless you're a fan of Hans Hopf (which I actually am, and even I see little need for Kempe's cycles).


----------



## Helgi

Hmm, this is complicated business!

I'm happy with the sound quality of the Opera Depot releases I've bought, and I really didn't expect them to be this good. At $5 an opera they're very tempting...

Thanks for all of your comments.


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## adriesba

Granate said:


> Not all Nilsson did was awesome.


Is that even possible?  :lol:


----------



## DarkAngel

> Haha. Very well, what about Sawallisch '62 with Thomas, Silja and Varnay?





zxxyxxz said:


> *I recommend the 1954 Lohengrin, it is my favourite version. However I can't comment on Opera Depot sound quality. Mine is on Andromeda.*
> 
> The 1961 Tannhauser I find merely Ok. It has Windgassen's best Act 3 but I find him better in other recordings. The main thing I dislike about this recording is the female cast. However others rate it higher than me. Again my version is not Opera Depot so I can't comment on sound quality. Mine is on Orfeo.
> 
> That said I do like opera depot very much. I got these recordings before I learnt of Opera Depot.


54 Lohengrin has great cast, but for me Windgassen lacks the lyric beauty of tone (soft voice) I prefer for the swan knight.....still a must have

I would start with these 4 all performed in halcyon days of Bayreuth excellence, two with Jess Thomas (studio and live) can't loose with either one, a coin flip......and 59, 58 Sandor Konya (with Grummer as Elsa!), you will return to these again and again very good sound

































If you want a more modern version in stereo probably go with Kubelik/King (vs Solti/Domingo)


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## DarkAngel

^^^^^ Sleeper version under the radar of most, 53 Schock has a golden lyric tone and stylish delivery that compares well with the best Lohengrins


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## adriesba

I have Barenboim, Leinsdorf, and Solti for _Lohengrin_. I know these aren't necessarily historic, but anyway... Barenboim has good sound and an uncut "In fernem Land", but some of the singers are disappointing. Seiffert sounds like he is mic'd up too much and just sounds too breathy, ugh... I really like Kónya as Lohengrin, and I like that Leinsdorf also doesn't cut "In fernem Land", but I don't always like how he conducts the piece. Amara's Elsa just sounds... I don't know, strange I guess. Rita Gorr rather butchers her lines as Otrud. I've heard that the Solti recording is really slow, so I've been reluctant to listen to it. Plus, it has Domingo... (sorry). Is the Solti worth listening to?

Tsk-tsk-tsk, I still don't have the Kempe!


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## howlingfantods

adriesba said:


> I have Barenboim, Leinsdorf, and Solti for _Lohengrin_. I know these aren't necessarily historic, but anyway... Barenboim has good sound and an uncut "In fernem Land", but some of the singers are disappointing. Seiffert sounds like he is mic'd up too much and just sounds too breathy, ugh... I really like Kónya as Lohengrin, and I like that Leinsdorf also doesn't cut "In fernem Land", but I don't always like how he conducts the piece. Amara's Elsa just sounds... I don't know, strange I guess. Rita Gorr rather butchers her lines as Otrud. I've heard that the Solti recording is really slow, so I've been reluctant to listen to it. Plus, it has Domingo... (sorry). Is the Solti worth listening to?
> 
> Tsk-tsk-tsk, I still don't have the Kempe!


I like the Solti but my biggest problem with it is Jessye Norman, who is super miscast--she sings beautifully but she's just no Elsa. I like Domingo's Wagner though--in fact, lately, the version I've been listening to the most is his video version from 1990 with Abbado & Studer--I ripped the DVD audio tracks and stuck the mp3s in my itunes. The villains aren't the best but you do get a nice performance of the Landgraf from Robert Lloyd.

Speaking of, Abbado's CD version from a few years after this video version is also very good and quite underrated--Studer, Jerusalem, Meier, Welker, Moll. If you like Konya, I recommend the Matacic with Grummer, Blanc, Gorr, and Crass from 1959--mono, live, not the best sound (which is pretty important for Lohengrin I think) but it's a pretty great performance--maybe the strongest cast top to bottom I'm aware of on disc. The Kubelik is also great, and stars my absolute favorite Elsa in Gundula Janowitz, perfectly cast.

But I personally love Seiffert's Lohengrin from the Barenboim (and Pape's Landgraf for that matter). So perhaps our tastes differ.


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## adriesba

howlingfantods said:


> I like the Solti but my biggest problem with it is Jessye Norman, who is super miscast--she sings beautifully but she's just no Elsa. I like Domingo's Wagner though--in fact, lately, the version I've been listening to the most is his video version from 1990 with Abbado & Studer--I ripped the DVD audio tracks and stuck the mp3s in my itunes. The villains aren't the best but you do get a nice performance of the Landgraf from Robert Lloyd.
> 
> Speaking of, Abbado's CD version from a few years after this video version is also very good and quite underrated--Studer, Jerusalem, Meier, Welker, Moll. If you like Konya, I recommend the Matacic with Grummer, Blanc, Gorr, and Crass from 1959--mono, live, not the best sound (which is pretty important for Lohengrin I think) but it's a pretty great performance--maybe the strongest cast top to bottom I'm aware of on disc. The Kubelik is also great, and stars my absolute favorite Elsa in Gundula Janowitz, perfectly cast.
> 
> But I personally love Seiffert's Lohengrin from the Barenboim (and Pape's Landgraf for that matter). So perhaps our tastes differ.


Do you mean König Heinrich instead of Landgraf?

I've seen a little bit of the Abbado video, and it appealed to me because of the more traditional staging.

I think Pape was the best singer on the Barenboim set. I liked him as König Heinrich, and I liked Barenboim's conducting, but the other singers just weren't that great to me.

I think Janowitz would be great for Elsa!


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## howlingfantods

adriesba said:


> Do you mean König Heinrich instead of Landgraf?
> 
> I've seen a little bit of the Abbado video, and it appealed to me because of the more traditional staging.
> 
> I think Pape was the best singer on the Barenboim set. I liked him as König Heinrich, and I liked Barenboim's conducting, but the other singers just weren't that great to me.
> 
> I think Janowitz would be great for Elsa!


Lol yes, the King not the Landgraf--I'm actually watching Tannhauser on another tab so apparently I have Tannhauser on the mind.


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## gvn

zxxyxxz said:


> The 1961 Tannhauser I find merely Ok. It has Windgassen's best Act 3 but I find him better in other recordings. The main thing I dislike about this recording is the female cast. However others rate it higher than me. Again my version is not Opera Depot so I can't comment on sound quality. Mine is on Orfeo.


Opera Depot's 1961 Tännhauser may not even be the same performance as Orfeo's!

There are two live 1961 Bayreuth Tännhausers in circulation. One, recorded on the first night (27 July), was issued on LP by Melodram and on CD by Myto. The other, recorded later in the run (3 August), was issued on CD by Orfeo. Both have exactly the same cast and are broadly similar, but in points of detail they are quite different. Unfortunately Opera Depot gives the date of its performance only as "1961," but I suspect it might be the Melodram/Myto performance, not the Orfeo one.

Choice between the two wouldn't be simple. On the first night (27 July) several of the cast were reportedly suffering from viral respiratory tract infections. However, on that night everyone was constantly trying to give the very best performance they possibly could, whereas later in the run a very slight air of routine had settled in.

Windgassen, of course, was notorious for "coasting" except on special occasions (and I'm very glad he did: I don't believe his career would have lasted as long otherwise). So here, in his opening "Dir töne Lob" he handles "entspriessen," "was nur Göttern einstens du erwiesen," etc., more perfunctorily on 3 Aug than on 27 July, and similarly, I think, throughout the performance. The differences are extremely minor, but they do add up.

Something similar happens with de los Angeles. On 27 July "hör mein Flehen" is more prayerful, "take me from this earth" more otherworldly, and so on.

With DFD the difference is even more striking. On 27 July he reacts to her prayer (from "Wie Todesahnung" on) as if he has totally forgotten about the stage, the audience, etc., and is totally spellbound by what he has just heard--as well he might be. On 3 Aug all this has become slightly more of a public oration (less yearning at "verlangt," less horror at "Grausen," a more effortful ascent to "heaven's heights").

I haven't noticed much difference in the performances of Bumbry and Greindl. But obviously I haven't conducted detailed comparisons all the way through these sets!

I imagine that reactions to these sets would vary considerably, because substantial numbers of listeners tend to be allergic to at least two of the artists involved (DFD and Greindl). But for anyone fortunate enough not to have a dislike to anyone in the cast, I'd suggest that, virus or no virus, the 27 July performance finds all of them at something very close to their interpretative best. I wouldn't call it the "best" Tännhauser on record (if pressed, I'd probably go back before 1945 for that), but I'm sure it's the Tännhauser I play most often (ahead even of Sawallisch 1962, Solti, Sinopoli, etc., etc., despite their greater beauty of recorded sound).


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## howlingfantods

gvn said:


> There are two live 1961 Bayreuth Tännhausers in circulation. One, recorded on the first night (27 July), was issued on LP by Melodram and on CD by Myto. The other, recorded later in the run (3 August), was issued on CD by Orfeo. Both have exactly the same cast and are broadly similar, but in points of detail they are quite different. Unfortunately Opera Depot gives the date of its performance only as "1961," but I suspect it might be the Melodram/Myto performance, not the Orfeo one.


Very interesting! I didn't realize these were two different nights. I used to have the Myto and got rid of it when I got the Orfeo. I find I listen to the Orfeo more often than when I had the Myto, and attributed the difference to either the slightly better sound quality or my own changing tastes, but perhaps I just preferred the performance that night--notwithstanding your own argument in favor of the performance captured on the Myto/GM.


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## annaw

DarkAngel said:


> 54 Lohengrin has great cast, but for me Windgassen lacks the lyric beauty of tone (soft voice) I prefer for the swan knight.....still a must have
> 
> I would start with these 4 all performed in halcyon days of Bayreuth excellence, two with Jess Thomas (studio and live) can't loose with either one, a coin flip......and 59, 58 Sandor Konya (with Grummer as Elsa!), you will return to these again and again very good sound


Those were the two first _Lohengrin_s I listened to and I totally second the recommendation! Jess Thomas is a great Lohengrin and both recordings have a very good sound, especially the studio recording although I find his 1962 Bayreuth also wonderful.

In addition Thomas looks like a proper Lohengrin:









Any opinions on 1965 Orfeo recording with Jess Thomas and Wiener Staatsoper? I haven't listened to it myself but I recall that I've heard some good things about it.


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## Barbebleu

gvn said:


> Opera Depot's 1961 Tännhauser may not even be the same performance as Orfeo's!
> 
> There are two live 1961 Bayreuth Tännhausers in circulation. One, recorded on the first night (27 July), was issued on LP by Melodram and on CD by Myto. The other, recorded later in the run (3 August), was issued on CD by Orfeo. Both have exactly the same cast and are broadly similar, but in points of detail they are quite different. Unfortunately Opera Depot gives the date of its performance only as "1961," but I suspect it might be the Melodram/Myto performance, not the Orfeo one).


The first night of Tannhäuser in 1961 was actually 23 July. Then 1, 3, 6, 10, 15, 17 August. Die Walküre played on 27 July.

Clearly I am so bored with lockdown my pedantry has reached a new height!:lol:


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## DarkAngel

annaw said:


> Those were the two first _Lohengrin_s I listened to and I totally second the recommendation! Jess Thomas is a great Lohengrin and both recordings have a very good sound, especially the studio recording although I find his 1962 Bayreuth also wonderful.
> 
> *Any opinions on 1965 Orfeo recording with Jess Thomas and Wiener Staatsoper? I haven't listened to it myself but I recall that I've heard some good things about it*.


Yes it was discussed here a few times in the past, Thomas still in great voice with high quality cast and very good sound, Ludwig returns as Ortrud, highly recommended but priority goes to two previous 62 Lohengrin recordings.....


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## howlingfantods

DarkAngel said:


> Yes it was discussed here a few times in the past, Thomas still in great voice with high quality cast and very good sound, Ludwig returns as Ortrud, highly recommended but priority goes to two previous 62 Lohengrin recordings.....


Ludwig is particularly great on this recording--my absolute favorite Ortrud performance I've heard. Just a bonechilling Entweihte Gotter that's certainly worth the price of admission.

I like Berry's Telramund by a substantial amount over DFD, I think--I prefer a brutish characterization for the character, and DFD's overly refined and aristocratic characterization doesn't work as well narratively.

Watson is no Grummer however.


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## wkasimer

howlingfantods said:


> I like Berry's Telramund by a substantial amount over DFD, I think--I prefer a brutish characterization for the character, and DFD's overly refined and aristocratic characterization doesn't work as well narratively.


While I agree with you in vocal terms, it's a lot easier to imagine DFD's Telramund dominated by Ortrud.



> Watson is no Grummer however.


That's for sure...


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## Helgi

This is such a great forum.



DarkAngel said:


> I would start with these 4 all performed in halcyon days of Bayreuth excellence, two with Jess Thomas (studio and live) can't loose with either one, a coin flip......and 59, 58 Sandor Konya (with Grummer as Elsa!), you will return to these again and again very good sound


Thanks - I will heed your advice. Most of these seem to be available on Presto!

As for Opera Depot, I ended up getting the '77 Boulez Ring.


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## howlingfantods

wkasimer said:


> While I agree with you in vocal terms, it's a lot easier to imagine DFD's Telramund dominated by Ortrud.


Very true. But DFD-as-Telramund's determination to fight to the death despite Lohengrin's holy/magical aura feels implausible. And I can imagine anyone being dominated by Ludwig-as-Ortrud, especially in this recording!


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## annaw

howlingfantods said:


> Very true. But DFD-as-Telramund's determination to fight to the death despite Lohengrin's holy/magical aura feels implausible. And I can imagine anyone being dominated by Ludwig-as-Ortrud, especially in this recording!


You make me very interested to listen to these recordings just for the sake of comparison. In this light DFD's Wotan is an even more interesting phenomena.


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## adriesba

Caballé as Elisabeth? Very curious... Is it any good? https://operadepot.com/products/wag...parly-wildermann?_pos=13&_sid=227222452&_ss=r


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## annaw

Any opinions on 1936-1941 Bodanzky/Leinsdorf Met _Ring_? The cast looks stellar but I don't know about the sound quality. I'd like to hear Melchior's Siegfried though.


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## wkasimer

annaw said:


> Any opinions on 1936-1941 Bodanzky/Leinsdorf Met _Ring_? The cast looks stellar but I don't know about the sound quality. I'd like to hear Melchior's Siegfried though.


There are multiple broadcasts of Die Walküre from which to choose; my preference is for either February 17, 1940, or December 6, 1941. These have the best combination of cast and sonics. 1940 has Flagstad with Julius Huehn as Wotan, 1941 has Traubel and Schorr, but is also somewhat cut; 1940 is uncut. Both feature Melchior as Siegmund.

I'm pretty sure that the other three operas only have a single performance available. Siegfried is a great (although cut) performance, and the sound is decent, at least on Naxos. I think that the Rheingold is less essential, and Götterdämmerung, with Marjorie Lawrence, is seriously cut and sounds pretty dire in every transfer I've heard.


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## gvn

annaw said:


> Any opinions on 1936-1941 Bodanzky/Leinsdorf Met _Ring_? The cast looks stellar but I don't know about the sound quality. I'd like to hear Melchior's Siegfried though.


Sound quality is inevitably limited, but is better than could reasonably be expected for live recordings of the period. If you know any of the live 1937-1941 Tristan recordings with Melchior & Flagstad, or any of the live 1938-1943 Met Verdi broadcasts with Martinelli, you will know what to expect. Otherwise, I'd suggest listening beforehand to whatever audio samples can be found on the internet. If you can accept the sound quality for 5 minutes, you can certainly accept it for 14 hours, because over an extended span of time one's ears tend to adjust.

As you'd expect, the three 1940-1941 Walküre recordings of have appreciably better sound than the 1936-1937 recordings of Rheingold, Siegfried, and Götterdämmerung. In the former just about every note can be heard distinctly; in the latter, a small proportion have to be taken on trust!

CD transfers vary considerably in quality. In my view, the best are on Immortal Performances, Naxos, and Pristine Audio. In addition to processing the sound, all three do a certain amount of reconstructive surgery (patching gaps & glitches in one performance by taking material from another).

Naxos is by far the cheapest but has chosen to issue the least attractive Walküre of the period (1941 with Traubel--most listeners would prefer 1940 with either Flagstad or Lawrence) and has used noise reduction severely enough to remove not only background hiss but also some of the timbre of the voices. Also, Naxos's Götterdämmerung has messy (and unnecessary) fades at CD-ends.

Pristine Audio has the most opulent sound, but has issued (so far) only the 1937 Siegfried and the February 1940 Walküre, and their added reverberation does tend to mask the finer details of the performances. For that reason, I don't feel Pristine's methods work quite as well with material of this quality as with standard studio 78s or post-1950 live tapes.

In this particular repertoire, therefore, I prefer the Immortal Performances transfers, which preserve the body of the voice & also allow the fine details of the performance to be heard. They aren't cheap, but in my view there's no sense in "saving money" by buying a transfer that one is never going to revisit.

The latest Immortal Performances transfers (on their own label) are substantially preferable to the early ones issued on the Guild label (especially in Götterdämmerung). Their main offering in this field is a "Dream Ring" with, throughout, Schorr as Wotan, Flagstad as Brünnhilde, Melchior as Siegmund & Siegfried, Habich as Alberich, Laufkötter as Mime, Maison as Loge, Lehmann as Sieglinde, Branzell as Fricka, Weber as Hagen, and Janssen as Gunther--all of whom, in general opinion, were at least the equal of any performer of those roles on record. The Rhinemaidens, Norns, and Gutrune are less impressive. In Rheingold and Siegfried, the "Dream Ring" contains the 1937 Met broadcasts conducted by Bodanzky with only minor patching. In Walküre, it contains a composite of the two 1940 Met broadcasts conducted by Leinsdorf. Its Götterdämmerung consists mainly of material from the 1937 Covent Garden and 1950 La Scala performances conducted by Furtwängler, with patching from 1936 Met and other sources.

Although the "Dream Ring" is, in my view, the fundamental purchase in this field, two other recordings offer particularly valuable supplements to it.

(1) Immortal Performances also offers a reconstructed 1937 Walküre with Flagstad & Melchior as the twins, Lawrence as Brünnhilde, Schorr as Wotan, and Thorborg as Fricka. (Only Acts 2 & 3 were broadcast on that date, and they survive only in damaged form, but Immortal Performances has reconstructed the remainder from 1935-1946 broadcasts.) To my mind this has two points of special interest. (i) Flagstad plays Sieglinde as a shy, demure creature shocked at her own impulses. I don't say that this is "better" than the traditional Lehmann/Rysanek approach, but it adds poignancy to her situation (since one feels that she is less able to stand up for herself & has suffered worse from abuse & exploitation), and it also makes more sense of the intensity of her remorse in Act 2. (ii) To my surprise, Lawrence is more expressive of the nuances of the text than any other of the great Brünnhildes (even Mödl!!). If you doubt this (as I certainly did), do direct comparisons in some section that offers scope for diversity of expression (e.g., "Fort denn eile…"). This again doesn't make her performance "better" than the usual approach, but it interestingly enriches scenes where she is playing opposite a male singer of similar expressiveness (e.g., Schorr in Act 3 of this opera).

(2) In the 1936 Met Götterdämmerung conducted by Bodanzky, Lawrence's Brünnhilde has similar interest, and apart from Melchior the rest of the cast is also different from that in the "Dream Ring" (note, particularly, the presence of Schorr as Gunther). Here the Naxos transfer is probably the best to date, though it has the defects noted above. There's also a serviceable transfer of this performance, with more body to the voices but also more hiss, in Sony's "Wagner at the Met" box.

Edit: My post was written at the same time as wkasimer's, which I didn't see. Wkasimer is quite right in drawing attention to the cuts in the 1936 Götterdämmerung (another reason for preferring the composite 1937+ performance in the "Dream Ring"), and we're also in agreement that all existing transfers of it (even the Naxos) are defective. I wonder if Pristine will attempt it.


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## gvn

Afterthought: Some readers might find useful a list of the available 1936-1941 recordings (whether "simple" or "composite"). Note that most of the best transfers also contain minor patching, which I haven't noted (e.g., to fill passages that were abridged in the original performances).

I've underlined recordings to which I've drawn particular attention in my previous post.

*Das Rheingold*
1937-04-03
Metropolitan Opera House, New York
Wotan: Friedrich Schorr
Fricka: Karin Branzell
Loge: René Maison
Mime: Karl Laufkötter
Alberich: Eduard Habich
Fasolt: Norman Cordon
Fafner: Emanuel List
Freia: Dorothee Manski
Froh: Hans Clemens
Donner: Julius Huehn
Erda: Doris Doe
conducted by Artur Bodanzky 
Best available transfer: Immortal Performances (replacing Doris Doe's Erda with Kerstin Thorborg's 1940 performance)

*Die Walküre*
composite: *1935-02-02 and †1937-12-18
Metropolitan Opera House, New York
Wotan: †Friedrich Schorr
Brünnhilde: †Marjorie Lawrence
Sieglinde: *†Kirsten Flagstad 
Siegmund: *Paul Althouse and †Lauritz Melchior
Hunding: *Emanuel List and †Ludwig Hofmann
Fricka: †Kerstin Thorborg
conducted by *†Artur Bodanzky
Least bad available transfer: Gebhardt (but much better could be done with this source material)

*Die Walküre*
composite: *1935-02-02, †1937-12-18, ‡1940-03-30, and §1946-03-30
Metropolitan Opera House, New York
Wotan: ‡Friedrich Schorr
Brünnhilde: ‡Marjorie Lawrence
Sieglinde: *†Kirsten Flagstad 
Siegmund: §Lauritz Melchior
Hunding: ‡Emanuel List
Fricka: ‡Kerstin Thorborg
conducted mainly by ‡Erich Leinsdorf
Best available transfer: Immortal Peformances

*Die Walküre*
1940-02-17
Metropolitan Opera House, New York
Wotan: Julius Huehn
Brünnhilde: Kirsten Flagstad
Sieglinde: Marjorie Lawrence
Siegmund: Lauritz Melchior
Hunding: Emanuel List
Fricka: Karin Branzell
conducted by Erich Leinsdorf
Best available transfer: Pristine Audio (only CD-R or download)

*Die Walküre*
1940-03-30
Metropolitan Opera House, New York
Wotan: Friedrich Schorr
Brünnhilde: Marjorie Lawrence
Sieglinde: Lotte Lehmann
Siegmund: Lauritz Melchior
Hunding: Emanuel List
Fricka: Kerstin Thorborg
conducted by Erich Leinsdorf
Least bad available transfer: Intense Media (but much better could be done with this source material)

*Die Walküre*
composite: *1940-02-17 and †1940-03-30
Metropolitan Opera House, New York
Wotan: †Friedrich Schorr
Brünnhilde: *Kirsten Flagstad
Sieglinde: †Lotte Lehmann
Siegmund: *†Lauritz Melchior
Hunding: *†Emanuel List
Fricka: *Karin Branzell
conducted by Erich Leinsdorf
Best available transfer: Immortal Peformances

*Die Walküre*
1940-08-21
Teatro Colón, Buenos Aires
Wotan: Herbert Janssen
Brünnhilde: Marjorie Lawrence
Sieglinde: Irene Jessner
Siegmund: René Maison
Hunding: Emanuel List
Fricka: Lydia Kinderman
conducted by Erich Kleiber
Least bad available transfer: Gebhardt

*Die Walküre*
1941-12-06
Metropolitan Opera House, New York
Wotan: Friedrich Schorr
Brünnhilde: Helen Traubel
Sieglinde: Astrid Varnay
Siegmund: Lauritz Melchior
Hunding: Alexander Kipnis
Fricka: Kerstin Thorborg
conducted by Erich Leinsdorf
Best available transfer: Naxos

*Siegfried*
1937-01-30
Metropolitan Opera House, New York
Siegfried: Lauritz Melchior
Mime: Karl Laufkötter
Wanderer: Friedrich Schorr
Brünnhilde: Kirsten Flagstad
Alberich: Eduard Habich
Erda: Kerstin Thorborg
Fafner: Emanuel List
Waldvogel: Stella Andreva
conducted by Artur Bodanzky 
Best available transfer: Immortal Peformances

*Götterdämmerung*
1936-01-30
Metropolitan Opera House, New York
Brünnhilde: Marjorie Lawrence
Siegfried: Lauritz Melchior
Hagen: Ludwig Hofmann
Gunther: Friedrich Schorr
Gutrune: Dorothee Manski
Waltraute: Kathryn Meisle
Alberich: Eduard Habich
conducted by Artur Bodanzky 
Least bad available transfer: Naxos

*Götterdämmerung*
composite: mainly *1936-01-30, †1937-06-01, ‡1950-04-04, and and §1951-02-17
mainly Royal Opera House, Covent Garden, London
Brünnhilde: †‡Kirsten Flagstad
Siegfried: *†Lauritz Melchior
Hagen: †‡Ludwig Weber
Gunther: †§Herbert Janssen
Gutrune: ‡Hilde Konetzni
Waltraute: †Kerstin Thorborg
Alberich: *Eduard Habich
conducted mainly by †‡Wilhelm Furtwängler
Best available transfer: Immortal Peformances

*Götterdämmerung*
composite: mainly *1936-01-30, †1937-06-01, ‡1941-02-22, and §1951-02-17
mainly Metropolitan Opera House, New York
Brünnhilde: ‡§Helen Traubel
Siegfried: *†‡Lauritz Melchior
Hagen: §Dezsö Ernster
Gunther: †§Herbert Janssen
Gutrune: §Regina Resnick
Waltraute: §Margaret Harshaw
Alberich: §Gerhard Pechner
conducted mainly by §Fritz Stiedry and ‡Arturo Toscanini
Best available transfer: Immortal Peformances


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## The Conte

gvn said:


> *Die Walküre*
> 1940-03-30
> Metropolitan Opera House, New York
> Wotan: Friedrich Schorr
> Brünnhilde: Marjorie Lawrence
> Sieglinde: Lotte Lehmann
> Siegmund: Lauritz Melchior
> Hunding: Emanuel List
> Fricka: Kerstin Thorborg
> conducted by Erich Leinsdorf
> Least bad available transfer: Intense Media (but much better could be done with this source material)


With a cast like that, who needs composites?

I have that recording and the sound is good for its age, my release is the old Myto which I managed to pick up second hand. (It would seem that it is in better sound than the Intense Media incarnation.)

Thanks for this list, it's very useful.

N.


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## The Conte

annaw said:


> Any opinions on 1936-1941 Bodanzky/Leinsdorf Met _Ring_? The cast looks stellar but I don't know about the sound quality. I'd like to hear Melchior's Siegfried though.


If you are interested in Melchior's Siegfried, then I recommend this box set (you also get his Lohengrin, Tristan and Siegmund). You may wish to complement it with his studio excerpts from the operas, the act two Parsifal with Flagstad and possibly one of the other Tristan's with Flagstad. The sound on these Sony transfers are usually superior than what has been released before.















Edited to add: I'm not a fan of the composite approach that one finds in the 'Dream Ring' and other Immortal Performances editions. Where he splices and dices two recordings together I would rather have the separate performances as they happened. The sound quality on Immortal Performances is superb, though and therefore I have no hesitation about recommending their releases of single performances without patching work. My two favourite historical Walkures are the one in this box set above and the other performance from 1940 with Lawrence as Brunhilde.

N.


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## annaw

Huge thanks for all comments and input! Yes, I'm not a huge fan of composite _Rings_ either, though for the sake of great singing I don't mind. My no 1. preference is having the same cast throughout the whole _Ring_. I know, this is naive and thus I'm very happy with other great recordings as well. I just feel that it's very interesting to follow the transformation of the characters, especially when it comes to Wotan. It's fascinating to hear the same singer sing the brash "young" Wotan in _Das Rheingold_ and the self-denying archetypal Wanderer in _Siegfried_. There are some special cases - I'm really like when both Mime and Loge are sung by Stolze for example.

I will check out the Sony box set .


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## The Conte

annaw said:


> Huge thanks for all comments and input! Yes, I'm not a huge fan of composite _Rings_ either, though for the sake of great singing I don't mind. My no 1. preference is having the same cast throughout the whole _Ring_. I know, this is naive and thus I'm very happy with other great recordings as well. I just feel that it's very interesting to follow the transformation of the characters, especially when it comes to Wotan. It's fascinating to hear the same singer sing the brash "young" Wotan in _Das Rheingold_ and the self-denying archetypal Wanderer in _Siegfried_. There are some special cases - I'm really like when both Mime and Loge are sung by Stolze for example.
> 
> I will check out the Sony box set .


As you will see from above there isn't a complete Ring from that time period with the same singers in all the roles. If you get the red box set and supplement it with the Immortal Performances Rheingold (you can also get it very cheaply on Naxos with Doe's Erda) and the Leinsdorf Walkure with Schorr you will have Schorr and Melchior as Wotan and Melchior, and some mix and match Flagstad/Lawrence as Brunhilde (no Lawrence Siegfried Brunhilde exists or proper live complete Flagstad Gotterdamerung Brunhilde). As you can see from the helpful list there are a number of ways of getting supplementary operas so that you have as close as possible to the same singers in each role/your personal favourites in the recordings you select.

N.


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## annaw

The Conte said:


> *As you will see from above there isn't a complete Ring from that time period with the same singers in all the roles.* If you get the red box set and supplement it with the Immortal Performances Rheingold (you can also get it very cheaply on Naxos with Doe's Erda) and the Leinsdorf Walkure with Schorr you will have Schorr and Melchior as Wotan and Melchior, and some mix and match Flagstad/Lawrence as Brunhilde (no Lawrence Siegfried Brunhilde exists or proper live complete Flagstad Gotterdamerung Brunhilde). As you can see from the helpful list there are a number of ways of getting supplementary operas so that you have as close as possible to the same singers in each role/your personal favourites in the recordings you select.
> 
> N.


I'm totally okay with that considering the amazing singers! I'm very thankful for the recommendations!


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## wkasimer

The Conte said:


> With a cast like that, who needs composites?


It must be admitted that by 1940, Schorr's voice was pretty worn out from decades of singing Wotan and Sachs. Best to hear Schorr in studio recordings of the role from a decade or more earlier.


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## wkasimer

The Conte said:


> If you are interested in Melchior's Siegfried, then I recommend this box set (you also get his Lohengrin, Tristan and Siegmund). You may wish to complement it with his studio excerpts from the operas, the act two Parsifal with Flagstad and possibly one of the other Tristan's with Flagstad.


I think that his studio recordings of most of the role are absolutely essential. I hate to say it, but Melchior could be pretty sloppy in live performance, often creeping ahead of the beat, and using the "Bayreuth Bark". The best way to hear the studio recordings is probably here:


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## Peer Gynt 2

Hello All. I hope you are all coping well with COVIDity. I used to be Peer Gynt on this thread but many things took over and I forgot my original sign in details, but, as Jack says in The Shining: I've been away but now I'm back.

Sending good wishes to my previous - and still extant - and some new, interlocutors upthread!

In reference to Mr Kasimir's recent post about studio Melchior, I do agree they are essential. They are a wonderful supplement to his Met broadcast Siegmund and Siegfried in the Naxos Met box referred to above. Nothing like that singing before or since.

I have now managed to complete my long-term project of acquiring all of the 50s Bayreuth Ring recordings extant, including the 57 Gotterdammerung with Kna. The project only took me 13 years!


In lockdown, I am now slowly starting again... with 51. I am currently spinning Act 3 of the 51 Karajan Siegfried and am full of regret that a full cycle of his from that year has not resurfaced. 

In terms of pure conducting/pacing, I think I must say that with Herbie here, there is not one dull second. To these ears he gets everything right. The occluded sound on the Rheingold and Siegfried matter not to me (Walhall); he just nails every bar.

Very interested in the more expert opinions on this forum.

Stay safe guys and gals.


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## Peer Gynt 2

wkasimer said:


> I think that his studio recordings of most of the role are absolutely essential. I hate to say it, but Melchior could be pretty sloppy in live performance, often creeping ahead of the beat, and using the "Bayreuth Bark". The best way to hear the studio recordings is probably here:
> 
> View attachment 134827


Respectfully, I don't hear the bark in Melchior at all. I have the 12 disc set The Cosima Era and it is a severe shock. The Golden Age of singing, in which Melchior shines, is as bel canto, to these ears, as the great majority of the Cosima Era, is not!


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## Peer Gynt 2

I posted a first and long message as a return to this amazing thread but it has not yet appeared. In it I was less reactive and mentioned Karajan 51 and its superb conducting (as someone who has spent the last 13 years acquiring all of the 50s Bayreuth recordings of The Ring). Technology eh?

Maybe the message is still in pre-mod.


----------



## Peer Gynt 2

Peer Gynt 2 said:


> I posted a first and long message as a return to this amazing thread but it has not yet appeared. In it I was less reactive and mentioned Karajan 51 and its superb conducting (as someone who has spent the last 13 years acquiring all of the 50s Bayreuth recordings of The Ring). Technology eh?
> 
> Maybe the message is still in pre-mod.


And now my "1st" message" [actually 2nd] has appeared twice!


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## The Conte

Peer Gynt 2 said:


> Respectfully, I don't hear the bark in Melchior at all. I have the 12 disc set The Cosima Era and it is a severe shock. The Golden Age of singing, in which Melchior shines, is as bel canto, to these ears, as the great majority of the Cosima Era, is not!


I can only agree, The Cosima Era is a great disappointment and apart from the odd piece here and there is mostly third rate IMO.

N.


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## Peer Gynt 2

The Conte said:


> I can only agree, The Cosima Era is a great disappointment and apart from the odd piece here and there is mostly third rate IMO.
> 
> N.


The Conte - as an historical artefact I would not be without it but I keep going back to the non Wagner items, principally the Schumann Ich Grolle Nicht recordings!


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## adriesba

Peer Gynt 2, I think the system has some glitches when new members post. I remember some of my first posts got duplicated, and I think some also disappeared as you said if I remember correctly. Those errors should eventually go away as you post more.


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## DarkAngel

Peer Gynt 2 said:


> I posted a first and long message as a return to this amazing thread but it has not yet appeared. In it I was less reactive and mentioned Karajan 51 and its superb conducting (as someone who has spent the last 13 years acquiring all of the 50s Bayreuth recordings of The Ring). Technology eh?
> 
> Maybe the message is still in pre-mod.


Welcome PG2 and GVN, we are getting some great activity recently at this thread.......

Karajan's Bayreuth work in 51 & 52 (tristan) is really great what little we have, the reason he was not invited back to the festival (according to Astrids book) is that some singers did not get along well with him and voiced their concerns to Wagner family


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## Peer Gynt 2

adriesba said:


> Peer Gynt 2, I think the system has some glitches when new members post. I remember some of my first posts got duplicated, and I think some also disappeared as you said if I remember correctly. Those errors should eventually go away as you post more.


Thank you adriesba. I can deal with a few irregularities given the knowledge and erudition herein.


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## Peer Gynt 2

Dear DarkAngel,

Thank you for your kind welcome. I remember you well from before, but it has been a while...! Always a pleasure.


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## gvn

………………………………………….


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## DarkAngel

GVN have you noticed there are no Wagner MET radio broadcasts from 1931-34, Andrew Rose mentioned in his recent production notes that almost all archival transcription discs from that period are lost or destroyed,,,,,,,,,,

Unfortunately those years include great MET performances by Frida Leider, Fred Schorr, Max Lorenz, Göta Ljungberg etc We can relive those performances from Jackson's great trilogy of MET books.........


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## Granate

Qobuz sale. 20€ each for:

Bayreuth 1953 Ring by Clemens Krauss
Bayreuth 1956 Ring by Hans Knappertsbusch
Bayreuth 1964 Parsifal by Hans Knappertsbusch

In another thread I've talked about the three HD Parsifals on sale. I got my 24/96 copy of the Zweden recording for 13€.


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## gvn

DarkAngel said:


> GVN have you noticed there are no Wagner MET radio broadcasts from 1931-34, Andrew Rose mentioned in his recent production notes that almost all archival transcription discs from that period are lost or destroyed.


I hadn't realized that. I just assumed that not much was recorded during the worst years of the Depression. But where recordings WERE made, there's still hope that some of them might still come to light (even if in fragments or in terrible sound!). A few previously "lost" 1930s Met broadcasts have been rediscovered even during the last decade.

One thing that does survive is 95 mins of a 1934 Met Walküre with Leider and Ludwig Hofmann as Wotan (sounding as if Hunding has seized control of Valhalla!), which can be heard on Frida Leider Edition FLC 193434. Armed with that, plus the studio "Potted" Ring, plus her 1925 excerpts on Preiser 89509, plus the 1936-1938 Covent Garden excerpts, it's possible to hear every scene of Leider's Brünnhilde (although sometimes in abridged form, and with a rather heterogeneous array of Siegfrieds!). So, even though Leider wasn't as lucky on record as Flagstad or Lawrence, we still have far more of her than we have any right to expect.

Oh, Jackson's books are inexhaustible treasures. I wish I had ears like his!


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## The Conte

gvn said:


> I hadn't realized that. I just assumed that not much was recorded during the worst years of the Depression. But where recordings WERE made, there's still hope that some of them might still come to light (even if in fragments or in terrible sound!). A few previously "lost" 1930s Met broadcasts have been rediscovered even during the last decade.
> 
> One thing that does survive is 95 mins of a 1934 Met Walküre with Leider and Ludwig Hofmann as Wotan (sounding as if Hunding has seized control of Valhalla!), which can be heard on Frida Leider Edition FLC 193434. Armed with that, plus the studio "Potted" Ring, plus her 1925 excerpts on Preiser 89509, plus the 1936-1938 Covent Garden excerpts, it's possible to hear every scene of Leider's Brünnhilde (although sometimes in abridged form, and with a rather heterogeneous array of Siegfrieds!). So, even though Leider wasn't as lucky on record as Flagstad or Lawrence, we still have far more of her than we have any right to expect.
> 
> Oh, Jackson's books are inexhaustible treasures. I wish I had ears like his!


I've recently become interested in Leider's Brunhilde, but haven't been able to find much in the way of releases on CD of her in the role. Are these you mention available on CD and if so can you give details of the releases?

Thanks,
N.


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## DarkAngel

^^^^ Hope GVN doesn't mind if I jump in here, for the HMV studio potted ring segments 1926-32 best sound is Pristine XR Obert Thorn version, ungodly number of 78rpm discs where remastered for this 6CD release...........



> The recordings capture Leider and Schorr, both considered the finest exponents of their roles at the time (and certainly among the finest of all time), at the height of their powers. A decade later, when Kirsten Flagstad came on the international scene, she was invariably compared to Leider, and not always to the latter's detriment. And while later singers could bring more psychological complexity to Wotan (Hans Hotter, for example), few could match the combination of legato and authoritative declamation that Schorr brings to the role.


long Sound Sample:
https://www.pristineclassical.com/products/paco107?_pos=1&_sid=146f81ef5&_ss=r


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## wkasimer

Peer Gynt 2 said:


> Respectfully, I don't hear the bark in Melchior at all.


Have you heard the Met Siegfried from 1937? That's where I think it's most apparent, especially in Act 1, as though he's saving himself for the last two acts.


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## wkasimer

The Conte said:


> I've recently become interested in Leider's Brunhilde, but haven't been able to find much in the way of releases on CD of her in the role. Are these you mention available on CD and if so can you give details of the releases?


There's some on this Preiser release:


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## gvn

The Conte said:


> I've recently become interested in Leider's Brunhilde, but haven't been able to find much in the way of releases on CD of her in the role. Are these you mention available on CD and if so can you give details of the releases?
> 
> Thanks,
> N.


*Potted Ring*: As noted by DarkAngel, the best transfer (CD-R or download) is on Pristine Audio. Leider sings in all the Walküre excerpts except the Death Annunciation scene, and also in the final duet of Siegfried (with Laubenthal).

*Frida Leider III: Her rarest recordings 1921-1926* (Preiser 89509, as noted by wkasimer; not uncommon 2ndhand): Leider sings the first half of the Death Annunciation scene and also an abridged Dawn Duet from Götterdämmerung (both with the slim-voiced but assured Fritz Soot).

*Götterdämmerung conducted by Beecham* live at Covent Garden 1936: all Leider's Götterdämmerung scenes _except_ the Dawn Duet were recorded, with Melchior, Janssen, Weber, and Thorborg (as Waltraute). Best available transfer is on Guild GHCD 2311-12 (warning: some of the gaps between Leider's scenes are filled in from other performances to add context, but all Leider's own scenes are presented unaltered).

*Götterdämmerung conducted by Furtwängler* live at Covent Garden 1938: all Leider's scenes in Act II were recorded, again with Melchior, Janssen, and Weber. The material thus doesn't supply anything additional to the more extensive 1936 recording. Best available transfer is on Immortal Performances IPCD 1022-1 (warning: again some of the non-Leider scenes are filled in from other performances, but again all Leider's own scenes are presented unaltered).

*Frida Leider live in New York + Bayreuth*, both in 1934: The Bayreuth excerpts are only tiny snippets, but the New York material contains 95 mins of Walküre with Hofmann (Wotan), Althouse (Siegmund), and Kappel (Sieglinde), including the first half of the Death Annunciation and other excerpts unrecorded in the "Potted" Ring. Note that sound quality is _greatly_ inferior to all the above releases. Best available transfer is Frida Leider Society FLG 193434 (available from www.frida-leider.de), plainly an excellent transfer from low-grade source material.

AFAIK no recording of Leider in the 2nd half of the Death Annunciation survives. I'd love to hear how she handled that!

The tiny 1934 Götterdämmerung excerpt was actually filmed (in rehearsal at Bayreuth) and can be viewed on YouTube. It interestingly shows that in live performance she was willing to sacrifice note-accuracy to vitality.


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## Peer Gynt 2

wkasimer said:


> Have you heard the Met Siegfried from 1937? That's where I think it's most apparent, especially in Act 1, as though he's saving himself for the last two acts.


Yes, I have this performance on Naxos, but admittedly it has been a while since I have given it a spin. I will do so later and report back. Currently finishing off the last 2 Acts of Kna's 51 Gotterdammerung, having preceded this with Karajan's (incomplete) Bayreuth Ring traversal from the same year.


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## annaw

Granate said:


> Qobuz sale. 20€ each for:
> 
> Bayreuth 1953 Ring by Clemens Krauss
> Bayreuth 1956 Ring by Hans Knappertsbusch
> Bayreuth 1964 Parsifal by Hans Knappertsbusch
> 
> In another thread I've talked about the three HD Parsifals on sale. I got my 24/96 copy of the Zweden recording for 13€.


Oh no, I hate that Qobuz isn't available here !! EDIT: Nevermind, I VPN-d


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## Barbebleu

Peer Gynt 2 said:


> And now my "1st" message" [actually 2nd] has appeared twice!


Welcome back to TC Peer. This is my favourite thread and it's good to see it revitalised. Posts, like the recent ones, always get me rushing back to my early twentieth century Wagner.

When you say that you have collected all the fifties Bayreuth performances I assume you mean with the exception of Parsifal 1955!:lol:


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## Peer Gynt 2

Barbebleu said:


> Welcome back to TC Peer. This is my favourite thread and it's good to see it revitalised. Posts, like the recent ones, always get me rushing back to my early twentieth century Wagner.
> 
> When you say that you have collected all the fifties Bayreuth performances I assume you mean with the exception of Parsifal 1955!:lol:


Thank you Barbebleu! I am pleased to make your (re)acquaintance!

You assume correctly! I must apologise for my opacity: I was referring only to 50s Bayreuth Rings (my Parsifal collection is very light indeed, only the 51 and 62 Knas).

I put my lack of clarity down to a Tetralogy of reasons: 1) the lateness of the hour; 2) the couple of Maisels weissbier I had enjoyed; 3) my excitement at returning to TC; and 4) having been torn asunder by the stupendous conducting of HvK in his extant recordings of the 51 Ring.

And apologies, if even for a moment, I inferred that 55 Parsifal was within my possession. :lol:


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## Barbebleu

Peer Gynt 2 said:


> Thank you Barbebleu! I am pleased to make your (re)acquaintance!
> 
> You assume correctly! I must apologise for my opacity: I was referring only to 50s Bayreuth Rings (my Parsifal collection is very light indeed, only the 51 and 62 Knas).
> 
> I put my lack of clarity down to a Tetralogy of reasons: 1) the lateness of the hour; 2) the couple of Maisels weissbier I had enjoyed; 3) my excitement at returning to TC; and 4) having been torn asunder by the stupendous conducting of HvK in his extant recordings of the 51 Ring.
> 
> And apologies, if even for a moment, I inferred that 55 Parsifal was within my possession. :lol:


No apology needed. As you are aware the '55 Parsifal remains as elusive as the Grail itself but I live in hope and eternal optimism that Bavarian radio will discover a recording lurking somewhere in the vaults. But I'm not holding my breath!:tiphat:

Which fifties Ring cycles do you have? I don't have the '54 because I don't believe there is a good sounding one out there and, of course, there wasn't a cycle in '59.

Addendum. Of course if I had read your original post more accurately I would have noticed that you referred only to fifties Ring cycles. Mea culpa (Latin for My Bad!):lol:


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## Peer Gynt 2

Barbebleu said:


> No apology needed. As you are aware the '55 Parsifal remains as elusive as the Grail itself but I live in hope and eternal optimism that Bavarian radio will discover a recording lurking somewhere in the vaults. But I'm not holding my breath!:tiphat:
> 
> Which fifties Ring cycles do you have? I don't have the '54 because I don't believe there is a good sounding one out there and, of course, there wasn't a cycle in '59.


Surely the 55 Parsifal MUST be in vaults somewhere in Bavarian Radio...

Here is my 50s Bayreuth list:

1951: Karajan in Rheingold, Act 3 of Walkure and Siegfried; Kna in Gotterdammerung
1952: Keilberth
1953: Keilberth
1953: Krauss
1954: Keilberth (Walkure only - unsure any of the other 3 were released or unearthed?)
1955: Keilberth (but not the 2 Testament supplements of Walkure and Gotterdammerung 2nd cycle)
1956: Kna
1957: Kna
1958: Kna

1959: no cycle indeed but I have supplemented this lack with Konwitschny's Covent Garden Ring of that year.

All the Ks!


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## annaw

Barbebleu said:


> No apology needed. As you are aware the '55 Parsifal remains as elusive as the Grail itself but I live in hope and eternal optimism that Bavarian radio will discover a recording lurking somewhere in the vaults. But I'm not holding my breath!:tiphat:
> 
> Which fifties Ring cycles do you have? I don't have the '54 because *I don't believe there is a good sounding one out there* and, of course, there wasn't a cycle in '59.


Where is the bad sounding one :lol:? I think I'm only aware of 1954 _Die Walküre_.


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## Barbebleu

annaw said:


> Where is the bad sounding one :lol:? I think I'm only aware of 1954 _Die Walküre_.


You are quite right Annaw. I should have been more clear. I believe it may have been broadcast by Bavarian radio but the quality was such that it was never preserved. In the dark recesses of my mind I am sure that there was something mentioned on the 'net about it existing but in execrable quality. Wishful thinking or Covid-19 self-isolating delusion. You be the judge!:lol:


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## Peer Gynt 2

Barbebleu said:


> No apology needed. As you are aware the '55 Parsifal remains as elusive as the Grail itself but I live in hope and eternal optimism that Bavarian radio will discover a recording lurking somewhere in the vaults. But I'm not holding my breath!:tiphat:
> 
> Which fifties Ring cycles do you have? I don't have the '54 because I don't believe there is a good sounding one out there and, of course, there wasn't a cycle in '59.


I replied earlier but the message has gone into the ether. I will try again.

I think I would volunteer my services to Bavarian Radio as an amateur archivist!

My 50s Bayreuth Rings are as follows:

1951: Rheingold, Walkure (Act 3 only), Siegfried - Karajan, plus Kna's Gotterdammerung
1952: Keilberth
1953: Keilberth
1953: Krauss
1954: Keilberth (Walkure only - the sound isn't great but listenable)
1955: Keilberth (first cycle but not the supplements of Walkure and Gotterdammerung from the 2nd cycle)
1956: Kna
1957: Kna
1958: Kna
1959: No Ring as you mention but I have supplemented the collection with Konwitschny's 59 Covent Garden cycle

Also Furtwangler 50 and 53.

I am slowly starting to listen again from 51 and see how far I get during lockdown!


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## annaw

Barbebleu said:


> You are quite right Annaw. I should have been more clear. I believe it may have been broadcast by Bavarian radio but the quality was such that it was never preserved. In the dark recesses of my mind I am sure that there was something mentioned on the 'net about it existing but in execrable quality. Wishful thinking or Covid-19 self-isolating delusion. You be the judge!:lol:


Haha okay! I see that the thought of it existing but not having it can be disturbing.


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## Barbebleu

annaw said:


> Haha okay! I see that the thought of it existing but not having it can be disturbing.


Oh yes. I can't bear the thought that there might be something from Bayreuth existing that isn't in my collection. The very idea brings me out in hives!:lol:


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## annaw

I've been listening to Furtwängler's _Tristan_ with Flagstad and Suthaus. I think I've never understood this opera until now - the whole piece is just madness, beautiful beautiful madness though (how on earth did Wagner manage to write anything like this???)! From all Wagner's operas _Tristan_ is the one I've never really given enough attention to, it just hasn't clicked with me. I could probably blame the fact that when I listened to it first, I didn't like historical recordings and thus didn't even try to listen to Karajan's Bayreuth recording or Furtwängler's. No matter how much I appreciate Windgassen's skilful singing, I've never been a huge fan of his Tristan.

At the same time, I think that Suthaus is absolutely wonderful as Tristan! The baritonal and darker shade of his heroic voice enhances Tristan's dramatic essence. I would even emphasise the fact that his voice is concurrently both darker AND heroic - I think Tristan was, in reality, the same loyal hero he was in the beginning of the opera throughout the whole opera, just blinded but still heroic. A sort of Siegmundish character rather than Siegfriedish . Flagstad is also warm, powerful and I would even say (is this controversial..?) vocally more beautiful than Nilsson.

Aaand.. Kurwenal is probably one of those roles where I really enjoy DFD! His bright and expressive voice just creates a joyous atmosphere, brings you back to earth from the mad liebesnacht. (I'm looking forward to hearing Hotter's Kurwenal in Karajan's recording).


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## wkasimer

annaw said:


> At the same time, I think that Suthaus is absolutely wonderful as Tristan!


If you like him in this studio recording, you should find this performance:









It's about five years earlier, so Suthaus is in fresher voice, and it's live, so both he and Furtwangler perform with a passion and commitment well beyond what they did in the studio.


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## annaw

wkasimer said:


> If you like him in this studio recording, you should find this performance:
> 
> View attachment 134917
> 
> 
> It's about five years earlier, so Suthaus is in fresher voice, and it's live, so both he and Furtwangler perform with a passion and commitment well beyond what they did in the studio.


Thanks, wkaimer, for the recommendation! I will check it out! Also listened to the Siegfried excerpts recording with Melchior you recommended and he sounds indeed very great there, so much sheer power.


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## Peer Gynt 2

Is it just me, or does anyone else find when listening through to the complete Ring, once Act 2 of Gotterdammerung is finished, that they almost don't want to listen to the 3rd Act, through a combination of dread that it will soon be over, that the denouement is just too painful and that the stupendous music of this Act will be in danger of overwhelming them completely?

(sorry to go a little off-topic)


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## The Conte

Peer Gynt 2 said:


> Is it just me, or does anyone else find when listening through to the complete Ring, once Act 2 of Gotterdammerung is finished, that they almost don't want to listen to the 3rd Act, through a combination of dread that it will soon be over, that the denouement is just too painful and that the stupendous music of this Act will be in danger of overwhelming them completely?
> 
> (sorry to go a little off-topic)


I find the scene with Siegfried and the rhinemaidens somewhat tiresome, but then it picks up once you get into the meatier part of Hagen vs. Siegfried. The final scene, however, is pure joy. You are right, though. Act Two of Gotterdamerung is absolute perfection.

N.


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## annaw

Peer Gynt 2 said:


> Is it just me, or does anyone else find when listening through to the complete Ring, once Act 2 of Gotterdammerung is finished, that they almost don't want to listen to the 3rd Act, through a combination of dread that it will soon be over, that the denouement is just too painful and that the stupendous music of this Act will be in danger of overwhelming them completely?
> 
> (sorry to go a little off-topic)


_Götterdämmerung_ is such a painful opera to watch (I liked the love potion better in _Tristan_...)! I love the third act but after the second scene of Act I, I yearn to hear the last orchestral part of the immolation scene (imo one of the most powerful moments in the whole _Ring_) and the final motif of redemption. Wotan is by far my favourite _Ring_ character and the final redemption makes burning Valhalla somewhat less disturbing to watch. Because the whole _Ring_ is so long, I start feeling for the characters the same way I do when reading a book. The worst part though is surviving the opera without hearing a heroic bass-baritone :lol:.


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## zxxyxxz

I do love act 3 of Götterdämmerung as it contains Siegfried's finale. Siegfried being my favourite character in the ring.

However I nearly cry after the dawn duet and at the end of act 1 when Brunnhilde is convinced her Siegfried returns to her. Those for me are the moments the tragedy hits home.


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## Granate

Peer Gynt 2 said:


> Is it just me, or does anyone else find when listening through to the complete Ring, once Act 2 of Gotterdammerung is finished, that they almost don't want to listen to the 3rd Act, through a combination of dread that it will soon be over, that the denouement is just too painful and that the stupendous music of this Act will be in danger of overwhelming them completely?
> 
> (sorry to go a little off-topic)


In fact, I find the Gibichung scenes the most tiresome of the entire opera, just saving the Alberich Hagen duet. I'm like waiting for Act III to finally start!


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## Peer Gynt 2

zxxyxxz said:


> I do love act 3 of Götterdämmerung as it contains Siegfried's finale. Siegfried being my favourite character in the ring.
> 
> However I nearly cry after the dawn duet and at the end of act 1 when Brunnhilde is convinced her Siegfried returns to her. Those for me are the moments the tragedy hits home.


That's very interesting. For me, Waltraute's appearance and her narration is when I think "uh oh"... it's like a pre-echo of the Immolation Scene and a masterstroke of dramatic planning, in my opinion.


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## Barbebleu

I am listening to Götterdämmerung from The Met 1936 with Lawrence and Melchior conducted by Bodanzky. I’ve only listened to Act 1 and a bit of Act 2 and sadly I’m disinclined to listen to any more. Clearly the conductor had a train to catch given the breakneck speed he takes this at. Siegfried must have been powerboating down the Rhine. The singers don’t need to have great lung power because they rarely dwell on a phrase long enough to require it. Marjorie Lawrence misses all of her top notes and I have heard Melchior in much better voice. My biggest gripe though is the cuts. So far it sounds like a highlights disc. This opera is not just a sequence of big moments, you need exposition to make sense of the climaxes. Wagner spent a long time composing this epic opera and he carefully through-composed it with the idea that everything in it connected to everything else in it. I get really annoyed when others decide that they can delete bits that they think aren’t needed. Real egotists indeed. Even if a composer agreed to cuts at any time during the early days of performance it would be expediency just to make sure that it got a hearing somewhere. Would you cut the last movement of Beethoven’s Ninth because you felt it didn’t add anything to what had gone before. I don’t think so. What makes a conductor or director think that it’s ok to make cuts to operas. If you don’t like the length of it don’t perform it and find something shorter if that’s your criterion. It makes me mad!!

Rant over. Need a cup of tea and a biscuit now to calm down!:lol:

I probably will persevere but I’m really not enjoying this version and I’m so disappointed because I absolutely love Götterdämmerung, every glorious moment of it.


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## annaw

Barbebleu said:


> I am listening to Götterdämmerung from The Met 1936 with Lawrence and Melchior conducted by Bodanzky. I've only listened to Act 1 and a bit of Act 2 and sadly I'm disinclined to listen to any more. Clearly the conductor had a train to catch given the breakneck speed he takes this at. Siegfried must have been powerboating down the Rhine. The singers don't need to have great lung power because they rarely dwell on a phrase long enough to require it. Marjorie Lawrence misses all of her top notes and I have heard Melchior in much better voice. My biggest gripe though is the cuts. So far it sounds like a highlights disc. This opera is not just a sequence of big moments, you need exposition to make sense of the climaxes. Wagner spent a long time composing this epic opera and he carefully through-composed it with the idea that everything in it connected to everything else in it. I get really annoyed when others decide that they can delete bits that they think aren't needed. Real egotists indeed. Even if a composer agreed to cuts at any time during the early days of performance it would be expediency just to make sure that it got a hearing somewhere. Would you cut the last movement of Beethoven's Ninth because you felt it didn't add anything to what had gone before. I don't think so. What makes a conductor or director think that it's ok to make cuts to operas. If you don't like the length of it don't perform it and find something shorter if that's your criterion. It makes me mad!!
> 
> Rant over. *Need a cup of tea and a biscuit now to calm down!*:lol:
> 
> I probably will persevere but I'm really not enjoying this version and I'm so disappointed because I absolutely love Götterdämmerung, every glorious moment of it.


This is the most British thing to say :lol:! Meanwhile, I, once again, had to make the difficult choice and choose which opera I'm going to listen next. My Keilberth 1953 has shipped but apparently the post offices are closed today so I started with Krauss 1953 _Parsifal_. I guess I won't be disappointed with that one.


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## Tsaraslondon

I was listening to the second disc in this set today. Fabulous performance of the Love Duet from Tristan with Leider and Melchior, recorded in two sections separated by months, one in Berlin and one in London, but still amazing. Leider later sent they peformed at such white hot intensity that she almost passed out at the end of the session. Coates was a superb Wagnerian.


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## Barbebleu

I must check to see if this is on the Introuvables du Chant Wagnerien box.


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## Tsaraslondon

Barbebleu said:


> I must check to see if this is on the Introuvables du Chant Wagnerien box.


I have that box. It's in there too. The Great Conductors issue has orchestral excerpts from The Ring as well as the overture to Tannhäuser. The first disc is mostly Russian music and the performances are stunning.


----------



## Barbebleu

Tsaraslondon said:


> I have that box. It's in there too. The Great Conductors issue has orchestral excerpts from The Ring as well as the overture to Tannhäuser. The first disc is mostly Russian music and the performances are stunning.


Thanks Tsara. I must revisit it after I'm done with Götterdämmerung.


----------



## wkasimer

Barbebleu said:


> My biggest gripe though is the cuts. So far it sounds like a highlights disc. This opera is not just a sequence of big moments, you need exposition to make sense of the climaxes. Wagner spent a long time composing this epic opera and he carefully through-composed it with the idea that everything in it connected to everything else in it. I get really annoyed when others decide that they can delete bits that they think aren't needed. Real egotists indeed. Even if a composer agreed to cuts at any time during the early days of performance it would be expediency just to make sure that it got a hearing somewhere. Would you cut the last movement of Beethoven's Ninth because you felt it didn't add anything to what had gone before. I don't think so. What makes a conductor or director think that it's ok to make cuts to operas. If you don't like the length of it don't perform it and find something shorter if that's your criterion. It makes me mad!!


Bodanzky isn't entirely to blame. In the early part of the 20th century at the old Met, performances were as much a social event as a musical one, and the rich patrons who wanted Wagner didn't want five hours of it.


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## Barbebleu

Yeah, I knew that but it doesn’t make it any easier to forgive. I suppose though that cut Wagner is better than no Wagner at all. It’s a damn close run thing though!

As regards Bodanzky, he still conducts at a fair lick though.


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## annaw

Finished Krauss 1953 _Parsifal_ and it was a great! I especially liked Mödl as Kundry and George London's Amfortas though I think I should give the recording another go to appreciate it even more. Vinay is quite dark and baritonal compared to Thomas, Vickers or Windgassen but vocally beautiful. I think his voice fits especially well with "mature" Parsifal in Act III.

It's quite wonderful how Krauss managed to conduct it uncut in 4 hours without it ever sounding rushed, really skillful!


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## The Conte

annaw said:


> Finished Krauss 1953 _Parsifal_ and it was a great! I especially liked Mödl as Kundry and George London's Amfortas though I think I should give the recording another go to appreciate it even more. Vinay is quite dark and baritonal compared to Thomas, Vickers or Windgassen but vocally beautiful. I think his voice fits especially well with "mature" Parsifal in Act III.
> 
> It's quite wonderful how Krauss managed to conduct it uncut in 4 hours without it ever sounding rushed, really skillful!


Have you heard Kna 52 (that's my fave).

N.


----------



## annaw

The Conte said:


> Have you heard Kna 52 (that's my fave).
> 
> N.


Haven't yet got around to listening to it but it's certainly on my list! I've been recently listening to quite a lot of Bayreuth recordings from 50s and I'm sure I'll listen to 52 Kna sooner or later . I'm also excited to listen to Kna 54 as I'm a bit of a Hotter fanatic.


----------



## zxxyxxz

annaw said:


> Haven't yet got around to listening to it but it's certainly on my list! I've been recently listening to quite a lot of Bayreuth recordings from 50s and I'm sure I'll listen to 52 Kna sooner or later . I'm also excited to listen to Kna 54 as I'm a bit of a Hotter fanatic.


I like both the 54 and the 52, though if I could only have one I would take the 52. If only for how good Mödl is on the 52.


----------



## gvn

wkasimer said:


> Originally Posted by Barbebleu
> 
> My biggest gripe though is the cuts. So far it sounds like a highlights disc. This opera is not just a sequence of big moments, you need exposition to make sense of the climaxes. Wagner spent a long time composing this epic opera and he carefully through-composed it with the idea that everything in it connected to everything else in it. I get really annoyed when others decide that they can delete bits that they think aren't needed. Real egotists indeed. Even if a composer agreed to cuts at any time during the early days of performance it would be expediency just to make sure that it got a hearing somewhere. Would you cut the last movement of Beethoven's Ninth because you felt it didn't add anything to what had gone before. I don't think so. What makes a conductor or director think that it's ok to make cuts to operas. If you don't like the length of it don't perform it and find something shorter if that's your criterion. It makes me mad!!
> 
> 
> 
> Bodanzky isn't entirely to blame. In the early part of the 20th century at the old Met, performances were as much a social event as a musical one, and the rich patrons who wanted Wagner didn't want five hours of it.
Click to expand...

Actually the Met cut less severely than most opera houses. Old libretti reveal that, in the late 19th & early 20th century, many houses routinely omitted the Norns scene and the Waltraute scene COMPLETELY, etc., etc.

The trouble wasn't limited to Wagner. I can recall a time when Traviata was always performed without the cabalettas to the tenor's and baritone's Act II arias, when Act IV of Figaro was always substantially abridged, etc.

Barbebleu, someone with your tastes might well prefer the Immortal Performances Dream Götterdämmerung, which is based on a 1937 Covent Garden performance where all the Brünnhilde scenes were recorded. Microphone placement was better than at the Met in 1936, Melchior was in better vocal form, the Brünnhilde was Flagstad rather than Lawrence, and the work was uncut. The non-Brünnhilde scenes, unrecorded in 1937, are supplied mainly from the 1950 La Scala Ring with the same Hagen (Weber) and conductor (Furtwängler). (Of course, you can always skip those scenes and listen only to the 1937 material if you don't want the gaps filled.)

There's also a serviceable release of the 1937 scenes (without fillers) on Music & Arts, but the sound quality is much less crisp than on Immortal Performances.


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## Barbebleu

Has anyone got this? I downloaded it for £7.99. It would seem to complement the Introuvables du chant wagnerien. I have put links to both the uk and USA recordings. $8.99 in the U.S.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=Richard+Wagner+on+record&i=digital-music&ref=nb_sb_noss

https://www.amazon.com/Richard-Wagn...gner+on+record&qid=1588417496&s=dmusic&sr=1-1


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## annaw

Just started listening but here Melchior sounds certainly great and the tempi seem to be good as well. Some recordings with Melchior seem to be somewhat rushed, even the Leinsdorf's _Die Walküre_ though I haven't listened to it wholly.


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## wkasimer

annaw said:


> Just started listening but here Melchior sounds certainly great and the tempi seem to be good as well. Some recordings with Melchior seem to be somewhat of rushed, even the Leinsdorf's _Die Walküre_ though I haven't listened to it wholly.


A great, legendary recordings, but you might want to look for a better transfer.


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## annaw

wkasimer said:


> A great, legendary recordings, but you might want to look for a better transfer.


And in addition I discovered I had included the wrong picture. The actual recording was the Warner one which also included Scene 3 and 5 from Act II.


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## annaw

is Reiner 1950 _Der Fliegende Holländer_ with Hotter and Varnay any good?


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## amfortas

Barbebleu said:


> I am listening to Götterdämmerung from The Met 1936 with Lawrence and Melchior conducted by Bodanzky. I've only listened to Act 1 and a bit of Act 2 and sadly I'm disinclined to listen to any more. Clearly the conductor had a train to catch given the breakneck speed he takes this at.


Wait until you get to the burning of Valhalla. It sounds like Bodanzky actually hears the final "All aboard!" call.


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## Barbebleu

amfortas said:


> Wait until you get to the burning of Valhalla. It sounds like Bodanzky actually hears the final "All aboard!" call.


I am agog with anticipation :lol:


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## howlingfantods

Barbebleu said:


> Clearly the conductor had a train to catch given the breakneck speed he takes this at. Siegfried must have been powerboating down the Rhine. The singers don't need to have great lung power because they rarely dwell on a phrase long enough to require it


I always thought it was kinda funny that people who would talk up these recordings would also turn around and criticize Bohm's Ring for his much more leisurely tempi.


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## VitellioScarpia

An odd Parsifal recording I am fond of is the one below from 1950. Gui is a great, Callas the most wicked and sensuous of Kundrys, Christoff is Gurnemanz, Panerai is Amfortas, Lina Pagliughi one of the flower maidens. The fly in the ointment is Baldelli as Parsifal but the rest is pretty good even though it is in Italian.


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## The Conte

VitellioScarpia said:


> An odd Parsifal recording I am fond of is the one below from 1950. Gui is a great, Callas the most wicked and sensuous of Kundrys, Christoff is Gurnemanz, Panerai is Amfortas, Lina Pagliughi one of the flower maidens. The fly in the ointment is Baldelli as Parsifal but the rest is pretty good even though it is in Italian.


Now that we have it complete (and in the best sound so far thanks to Warner) it's one of the essential Parsifals. There are a few opera recordings that I will put up with in Italian translation due to the presence of a great singer. This is one of those very few.

N.


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## annaw

26 years old Hotter is very interesting to listen to. Sounds exactly like Hotter but just brighter and somewhat lighter, hasn't yet developed this dark bassy sound. It's marvellous though how well he manages to colour his rather heavy voice.


----------



## Barbebleu

The Conte said:


> Now that we have it complete (and in the best sound so far thanks to Warner) it's one of the essential Parsifals. There are a few opera recordings that I will put up with in Italian translation due to the presence of a great singer. This is one of those very few.
> 
> N.


I've just finished listening to this and it's ok. Weirdly Christoff singing in Italian just sounds as though he is singing in Russian! He has that very typical Slavic bass sound which I personally love but it sounds wrong for Gurnemanz. It's perfect for Boris Godunov though. Callas is an acceptable Kundry but to my ears, and I stress that most vehemently, she isn't quite right for it. It may be that there is something missing with it being in Italian. But again, my opinion only. The Parsifal is too light for the part. Again this doesn't sit right for me. Well conducted though.

I can't in all honesty say it's one of the essential Parsifals. For that you have to look at the Knappertsbusch Bayreuth outings and one studio version like the Kubelik.


----------



## howlingfantods

Barbebleu said:


> I've just finished listening to this and it's ok. Weirdly Christoff singing in Italian just sounds as though he is singing in Russian! He has that very typical Slavic bass sound which I personally love but it sounds wrong for Gurnemanz. It's perfect for Boris Godunov though. Callas is an acceptable Kundry but to my ears, and I stress that most vehemently, she isn't quite right for it. It may be that there is something missing with it being in Italian. But again, my opinion only. The Parsifal is too light for the part. Again this doesn't sit right for me. Well conducted though.
> 
> I can't in all honesty say it's one of the essential Parsifals. For that you have to look at the Knappertsbusch Bayreuth outings and one studio version like the Kubelik.


The voice itself sounds great, it doesn't sound to me like Callas really connected to this role or had a great feel for it. Christoff is fun but you're right that he couldn't be more wrong for Gurnemanz--he doesn't work much better in the 1960 Cluytens performance in German either, it's not the language.


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## annaw

I'm listening to Krauss 1953 _Ring_ again and finally got my Keilberth 1953 as well. The cast seems to be pretty much the same except that Krauss has Varnay and Keilberth has Mödl as Brünnhilde. How big are the actual differences between these recordings? I'm really excited to finally hear Keilberth conduct but I don't really have experience with his style.


----------



## The Conte

annaw said:


> I'm listening to Krauss 1953 _Ring_ again and finally got my Keilberth 1953 as well. The cast seems to be pretty much the same except that Krauss has Varnay and Keilberth has Mödl as Brünnhilde. How big are the actual differences between these recordings? I'm really excited to finally hear Keilberth conduct but I don't really have experience with his style.


They are very different IMO, Krauss has something of Bohm's swiftness, but isn't without gravitas. Keilberth is in a whole different league when it comes to Ring conductors. He hits the balance just right neither taking the score as leisurely as a Kanppertsbusch or Barenboim or as swiftly as a Bohm or Krauss. (Not that any of those other conductors weren't great Ring conductors either.)

Keilberth 55 is in better sound (and you get Varnay if you prefer her over Modl, which most do), but the 53 has the edge as some of the women are better cast than in 55 for my taste. The 55 in some form (with or without the second cycle additions) is essential too. (Note, I don't have the Krauss 53 at all because I prefer Keilberth's conducting, there is just something RIGHT about it which I can't put into words, defo my favourite Ring conductor.

N.


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## annaw

The Conte said:


> They are very different IMO, Krauss has something of Bohm's swiftness, but isn't without gravitas. Keilberth is in a whole different league when it comes to Ring conductors. He hits the balance just right neither taking the score as leisurely as a Kanppertsbusch or Barenboim or as swiftly as a Bohm or Krauss. (Not that any of those other conductors weren't great Ring conductors either.)
> 
> Keilberth 55 is in better sound (and you get Varnay if you prefer her over Modl, which most do), but the 53 has the edge as some of the women are better cast than in 55 for my taste. The 55 in some form (with or without the second cycle additions) is essential too. (Note, I don't have the Krauss 53 at all because I prefer Keilberth's conducting, there is just something RIGHT about it which I can't put into words, defo my favourite Ring conductor.
> 
> N.


Thank you for your insightful comment! Yeah, I feel that Krauss recording can get a bit crazy at times when it comes to tempi, because it combines Krauss's swift conducting with Windgassen's interpretation that has, at least as far as I've understood, some irregularities (e.g. coming in +/- 1 bar earlier or later). In general the cast is stellar though, I think Kuen might be one of my absolutely favourite Mimes because he's a bit more lyrical than many others, Hotter sounds very fresh and is as great as ever. I like Vinay's dark Siegmund although he somehow managed to sing "Siegmund bin ich und Siegmund heiß' ich!" but such mistakes only humanise the singers and his voice doesn't sound any less powerful.


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## vivalagentenuova

annaw said:


> 26 years old Hotter is very interesting to listen to. Sounds exactly like Hotter but just brighter and somewhat lighter, hasn't yet developed this dark bassy sound. It's marvellous though how well he manages to colour his rather heavy voice.


If only they had completed Act III with this cast, this would certainly be the greatest recording of _Die Walkure_ ever made, and probably the greatest opera recording ever made. The singing is almost entirely perfect, and the sound is excellent, strikingly so for the date.
A complete Ring with such a cast at that level of sound quality... well, that's just a bit too awesome to contemplate. If I do I'll just get bummed it isn't real.
The only singer who isn't stratospheric for me is ironically Hotter (leaving aside the scenes completed w/o Fuchs in Act II). He's excellent here, but he's got just a trace of the woofiness that mars his later singing for me. He's honestly one of those singers that I don't really understand the huge praise for. Certainly preferable to someone like DFD or Goerne, but lacks the final oomph in his singing. It's much better here for me than in the fifties though. But as far as Hans Wotans go I would have preferred Hans Reinmar, or Hans Hermann Nissen.


----------



## annaw

vivalagentenuova said:


> If only they had completed Act III with this cast, this would certainly be the greatest recording of _Die Walkure_ ever made, and probably the greatest opera recording ever made. The singing is almost entirely perfect, and the sound is excellent, strikingly so for the date.
> A complete Ring with such a cast at that level of sound quality... well, that's just a bit too awesome to contemplate. If I do I'll just get bummed it isn't real.
> The only singer who isn't stratospheric for me is ironically Hotter (leaving aside the scenes completed w/o Fuchs in Act II). He's excellent here, but he's got just a trace of the woofiness that mars his later singing for me. He's honestly one of those singers that I don't really understand the huge praise for. Certainly preferable to someone like DFD or Goerne, but lacks the final oomph in his singing. It's much better here for me than in the fifties though. But as far as Hans Wotans go I would have preferred Hans Reinmar, or Hans Hermann Nissen.


When I first heard Hotter, I didn't give his singing too much thought. This has now drastically changed and he's quite certainly my favourite Wotan and one of my favourite singers. I think I've written this earlier in some thread but imo one of Hotter's greatest merits was his dramatic portrayal and I think that Wotan's farewell is one of the best examples of this. Listen how Hotter sings these lines and compare with other recordings:

"das Herz mir sengte,
nach Weltenwonne 
mein Wunsch verlangte
aus wild webendem Bangen:"

No other singer I've heard has managed to sing these with such sadness and devastation as Hotter while also having an amazing voice. The darkness and heaviness accompanied with certain warmth gave his voice the grandeur that singing Wotan requires and this accompanied with his towering figure must have given him an exceptionally powerful stage presence. He was a very intelligent artist who seemed to understand the character well. I recently heard an interview with singers from one new _Ring_ production (sadly I cannot remember which one) and the soprano singing Brünnhilde talked that Wotan is pretty much just portraying a terrible father figure and, in short, made him look like a very negative character not the tragic and constantly transforming figure that I see when I hear the music and read the libretto. If Wotan's character is oversimplified or interpreted in a very narrow way, a lot goes missing. (I'm personally not sure whether I want to hear a production where Wotan's whole essence is being a terrible father figure...). If I recall correctly then Hotter said to James Morris that one has to sing Wotan at least 100 times to understand his character - that shows how well Hotter understood Wotan's inherent complexity and you can hear this understanding from his singing.

(Sorry for wandering a bit off-topic, I think there should be some sort of general Wagner discussion thread :lol:.)


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## Barbebleu

Why not start one Annaw?xxxxxxxxxx


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## annaw

Barbebleu said:


> Why not start one Annaw?xxxxxxxxxx


Good suggestion, I now did


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## Granate

Still wondering about the Two Orfeo Bayreuth Rings that are available in Qobuz for 20€ each. Krauss 1953 and Kna 1956.

Krauss sounds swiftly conducted, clean in voices.
Knappertsbusch sounds superb in SQ, much better than my first listen.

Then Varnay sings and I get disappointed so I closed the two windows and left them alone.

Should I go for the 1964 Parsifal? Or the Stiedry New York from Pristine?

Been lately spending a lot of money in Typography.


----------



## The Conte

Granate said:


> Still wondering about the Two Orfeo Bayreuth Rings that are available in Qobuz for 20€ each. Krauss 1953 and Kna 1956.
> 
> Krauss sounds swiftly conducted, clean in voices.
> Knappertsbusch sounds superb in SQ, much better than my first listen.
> 
> Then Varnay sings and I get disappointed so I closed the two windows and left them alone.
> 
> Should I go for the 1964 Parsifal? Or the Stiedry New York from Pristine?
> 
> Been lately spending a lot of money in Typography.


1964 Kna Parsifal (Yes, yes, yes!)

Do you already have the Kna 58 Ring, if so you don't need the 56. (I don't know why Orfeo released that one as it is in worse sound than both the 57 and 58 and I don't think the performance is as good as those later two either.

N.


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## wkasimer

The Conte said:


> 1964 Kna Parsifal (Yes, yes, yes!)
> 
> Do you already have the Kna 58 Ring, if so you don't need the 56. (I don't know why Orfeo released that one as it is in worse sound than both the 57 and 58 and I don't think the performance is as good as those later two either.


And there was already a perfectly acceptable version of 1956 available on Music and Arts.

The 1964 Parsifal is essential.


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## vivalagentenuova

The Conte said:


> 1964 Kna Parsifal (Yes, yes, yes!)
> 
> Do you already have the Kna 58 Ring, if so you don't need the 56. (I don't know why Orfeo released that one as it is in worse sound than both the 57 and 58 and I don't think the performance is as good as those later two either.
> 
> N.


Interesting. I haven't heard either comlplete, but I've been listening to sections and I think Varnay and Hotter both sound much better in '56 than '57. Also, Windgassen is a much better Siegfried than Bernd Aldenhoff. It's also kind of interesting to me to have Siegmund and Siegfried played by the same singer in the '56. That's a bit of double casting that makes some sense. The 1957 Rhinemaidens are excellent, though. One of the best trios I've heard. And of course Nilsson is preferable to Brouwinstijn as Sieglinde. Overall I think I like the 1956 cast a bit better. But I haven't heard the whole thing yet.


----------



## Granate

The Conte said:


> 1964 Kna Parsifal (Yes, yes, yes!)
> 
> Do you already have the Kna 58 Ring, if so you don't need the 56.


Hmm. I have lots of Parsifals. The 64 has certainly the best conducting for me, but Hotter's late Gurnemanz is my main drawback. Already have 61 and 62 to enjoy him.

Out of the 58 Ring, I would only like to get the Siegfried (Walküre is my favourite and I own it). Ant that would be about it. Waiting for a re-edition of the 57 to arrive. Still the 57 Rheingold should be a good purchase.


----------



## The Conte

Granate said:


> Hmm. I have lots of Parsifals. The 64 has certainly the best conducting for me, but Hotter's late Gurnemanz is my main drawback. Already have 61 and 62 to enjoy him.
> 
> Out of the 58 Ring, I would only like to get the Siegfried (Walküre is my favourite and I own it). Ant that would be about it. Waiting for a re-edition of the 57 to arrive. Still the 57 Rheingold should be a good purchase.


You get Vickers in the 64 Parsifal, that's possibly its main attraction.

N.


----------



## annaw

The Conte said:


> 1964 Kna Parsifal (Yes, yes, yes!)
> 
> Do you already have the Kna 58 Ring, if so you don't need the 56. (I don't know why Orfeo released that one as it is in worse sound than both the 57 and 58 and I don't think the performance is as good as those later two either.
> 
> N.


What do you consider to be the main drawbacks of 1956 recording?


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## The Conte

annaw said:


> What do you consider to be the main drawbacks of 1956 recording?


Actually the sound, but you get more interesting casting in 57 and 58, whereas in 56 you get a lot of the same singers as in previous years with Keilberth. (I prefer to have different casts to have more variety in the sets I choose to have.) You get Vickers' Siegmund in 57 with Nilsson and he is Siegmund again in 58 and 58 has the excellent Fricka of Rita Gorr.

N.


----------



## howlingfantods

vivalagentenuova said:


> And of course Nilsson is preferable to Brouwinstijn as Sieglinde.


i'm very fond of nilsson but i don't think she really works as sieglinde, particularly as here where she seems to be in a battle of wills with Kna about the pacing of the part, and I think Brouwenstijn is one of the better sieglindes on record, so the "of course" seems a little strange to me. To me that is far from an obvious presumption.


----------



## The Conte

howlingfantods said:


> i'm very fond of nilsson but i don't think she really works as sieglinde, particularly as here where she seems to be in a battle of wills with Kna about the pacing of the part, and I think Brouwenstijn is one of the better sieglindes on record, so the "of course" seems a little strange to me. To me that is far from an obvious presumption.


I agree, Nilsson's Sieglinde is one of the downsides to the 57 Kna Ring and why ultimately I prefer 58. Brouwenstijn is indeed one of the best Sieglindes (my favourites are Studer and Varady and I also like Janowitz's softly focused approach (so I have her excerpts from the Karajan Ring in the DG box set). I like Rysanek, but her voice is too heavy for the role in reality.

N.


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## vivalagentenuova

Brouwinstijn's vibrato is obtrusive, and she goes shrill more than just once in a while. (At least in 1956. Haven't heard most of her other performances.) Nilsson has proper vibrato, and sings with great beauty. I find her much preferable.


----------



## The Conte

The Conte said:


> I agree, Nilsson's Sieglinde is one of the downsides to the 57 Kna Ring and why ultimately I prefer 58. Brouwenstijn is indeed one of the best Sieglindes (my favourites are Studer and Varady and I also like Janowitz's softly focused approach (so I have her excerpts from the Karajan Ring in the DG box set). I like Rysanek, but her voice is too heavy for the role in reality.
> 
> N.


... And how could I forget Lotte Lehmann! Incomparable!

N.


----------



## The Conte

vivalagentenuova said:


> Brouwinstijn's vibrato is obtrusive, and she goes shrill more than just once in a while. (At least in 1956. Haven't heard most of her other performances.) Nilsson has proper vibrato, and sings with great beauty. I find her much preferable.


I am more familiar with Brouwinstijn in the Keilberth 55 and I've thought she was perfect for the role.

N.


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## vivalagentenuova

Lehmann is the best I've heard.

I just listened to a clip of Brouwinstijn in 55 for Keilberth, and it's better. Perhaps the better sound is more ingratiating to her voice? The vibrato and low notes still aren't exactly what I want, but she's definitely better there.


----------



## annaw

The Conte said:


> Actually the sound, but you get more interesting casting in 57 and 58, whereas in 56 you get a lot of the same singers as in previous years with Keilberth. (I prefer to have different casts to have more variety in the sets I choose to have.) You get Vickers' Siegmund in 57 with Nilsson and he is Siegmund again in 58 and 58 has the excellent Fricka of Rita Gorr.
> 
> N.


I have to keep these in mind when I listen to 1956. I agree, I like Rita Gorr's Fricka and definitely Vickers's Siegmund.


----------



## gvn

annaw said:


> Originally Posted by The Conte
> Actually the sound, but you get more interesting casting in 57 and 58, whereas in 56 you get a lot of the same singers as in previous years with Keilberth. (I prefer to have different casts to have more variety in the sets I choose to have.) You get Vickers' Siegmund in 57 with Nilsson and he is Siegmund again in 58 and 58 has the excellent Fricka of Rita Gorr.
> 
> 
> 
> I have to keep these in mind when I listen to 1956. I agree, I like Rita Gorr's Fricka and definitely Vickers's Siegmund.
Click to expand...

I have similar feelings (and, as Sieglinde, I also prefer 58's Rysanek to Brouwenstijn and Nilsson, for reasons stated by previous posters).

Nowadays, when I listen to Knappertsbusch's Ring, I generally play the 56 Rheingold, then the 58 Walküre, then the 56 Siegfried and Norns scene, then go to 57 for the remainder of Götterdämmerung. That way, I retain Hotter, Varnay, Windgassen, and Neidlinger throughout in the four main roles, while taking in Vickers & Rysanek as the twins, Gorr as Fricka, and Grümmer as Gutrune (the role in the Ring that is least often cast satisfactorily, in my personal view).


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## zxxyxxz

Despite being unsure of when I will have the time to sit down and watch it I have managed to source a copy of the Osaka 1967 Tristan! 

I am very happy, but then its a new to me recording, with video starring Windgassen and that always makes me happy.


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## annaw

I listened to some excerpts of Keilberth 1953 recording and I was quite surprised how good the sound quality is. I wonder, why Bayreuth recordings seem to have a better SQ compared to La Scala and Met recordings from the same period? (I don't exclude the possibility that maybe I'm just not well enough acquainted with La Scala and Met recordings.)


----------



## The Conte

annaw said:


> I listened to some excerpts of Keilberth 1953 recording and I was quite surprised how good the sound quality is. I wonder, why Bayreuth recordings seem to have a better SQ compared to La Scala and Met recordings from the same period? (I don't exclude the possibility that maybe I'm just not well enough acquainted with La Scala and Met recordings.)


I believe it's because the quality of the German radio broadcasts is superior than Italian and American radio stations.

N.


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## annaw

The Conte said:


> I believe it's because the quality of the German radio broadcasts is superior than Italian and American radio stations.
> 
> N.


Thanks, I was suspecting something like this. It's great to have so many old Wagner recordings with at least decent sound quality though (Abendroth's _Die Meister_ comes to mind for example).


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## zxxyxxz

If anyone is curious about any opera depot recordings now is the time, with the 50% off sale and cds back!


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## annaw

zxxyxxz said:


> If anyone is curious about any opera depot recordings now is the time, with the 50% off sale and cds back!


Here we go again!


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## Granate

Now I don't remember who praised here the 1965 Bayreuth Rheingold. I listened to it yesterday and even if I struggle to recognise Windgassen's Loge and Adam's Wotan, it was the thrilling experience I was looking for. It now replaces the Philips recording and completes my ideal Böhm Ring.










Now that you are talking about OperaDepot again. I remembered yesterday that I had not listened to any of my purchases. That's why I'm combining it with Beethoven. The 1968 Bayreuth Gotterdammerung doesn't impress me a lot, just a patch for a great Windgassen who has more stamina than a year before, but conducting, Hagen, Waltraute... meh.

I have many Parsifals left and also two complete Sawallisch Rings to listen to. Bayreuth 1968, 1969, 1973 & Venice 1970. And probably the 1964 Bayreuth Meistersinger, which I don't know if I'll listen from beginning to end.


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## zxxyxxz

Glad you enjoyed the 1965 Das Rheingold. 

Sorry you didn't enjoy the 1968 Götterdammerung.


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## Granate

^^

Kuchka sings like an angel rather than a goddess (this is no complain). But the last opera of the Ring is usually the toughest for me. I wouldn't just listen to any performance. It's a pleasure to count with so much Dernesch.


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## Barbebleu

I’ve recently finished listening to the 1951 Dresden Meistersinger conducted by Kempe, not to be confused with the later one he did in ‘56. 

Sachs - Frantz
David- Gerhard Unger 
Walther - Brendan Aldenhoff
Eva - Tiana Lemnitz 
‘Lene - Emilie Walther-Sacks
Beckmesser - Heinrich Pflanzl 
Pogner - Kurt Böhme 
Kothner - Karl Paul
Nachtwächter - Werner Faulhaber

My first impression was, on listening to Act 1, that this was shaping up to be one of the great Meistersingers in my collection. Act 2 and my enthusiasm was beginning to slightly wane. Act 3 and I was getting impatient for the ending to be reached.
Why? You might well ask. Frantz is in great voice and is a great Sachs. Unger is the definitive David and sings beautifully. His rules exposition is one of the best I’ve heard. Karl Paul makes a terrific job of Kothner and his “tabulatur” scene is excellent. Tiana Lemnitz is an appealing and well sung Eva as is her companion, Emilie Walther-Sacks, as Magdalene. Kurt Böhme is rock solid as Pogner and Heinrich Pflanzl is a great Beckmesser who doesn’t overdo his Act 3 part when he is stealing the song from Sachs. 
Werner Faulhaber as the night watchman makes a very fine job of his two small scenes, particularly at the end of Act 2. Wagner’s stage instructions say “shaking his head, he sings his verse with a tremulous voice.” And this is exactly what we get but still in tune and accurately sung. 
I suppose my sticking point, actually two points, are Aldenhoff’s voice and the terribly recessed orchestra. I do like to have the voices well up in the mix but here, I feel, the orchestra is too far back and there are lots of beautiful things to hear from the orchestra that you don’t get, even listening on headphones.
Kempe does some wonderful things with the orchestra but sometimes I got the feeling that his some of his tempi sounded a bit, and I hesitate to say it, leaden and laboured.

As regards Aldenhoff. I found over the course of three Acts his voice just got on my wick. The endless legato and foghorn vowels just drove me bonkers and by the time we got to the last iteration of the Prize Song I was ready to throw him in the Pegnitz. I don’t entirely blame him because deep down I don’t think the Prize Song is one of Wagner’s greatest compositions and I have never heard any Wagner tenor do it justice which has always led me to believe that the fault lies with the music and not the singer.

All in all it’s a good Meistersinger but in my not so humble opinion  it’s one of these things where there is less to it than meets the eye, or in this case, the ear.


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## Woodduck

Barbebleu said:


> As regards Aldenhoff. I found over the course of three Acts his voice just got on my wick. The endless legato and foghorn vowels just drove me bonkers and by the time we got to the last iteration of the Prize Song I was ready to throw him in the Pegnitz. I don't entirely blame him because deep down I don't think the Prize Song is one of Wagner's greatest compositions and I have never heard any Wagner tenor do it justice which has always led me to believe that the fault lies with the music and not the singer.


The melody of the Prize Song has been described as awkward. In any case it's hard to sing; it requires sustained lyricism combined with power, and its tessitura hovers around the _passaggio._ That combination of requirements doesn't come easily to most tenors who sing Walther. But try to keep your pulse steady while listening to this:


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## amfortas

Woodduck said:


> The melody of the Prize Song has been described as awkward. In any case it's hard to sing; it requires sustained lyricism combined with power, and its tessitura hovers around the _passaggio._ That combination of requirements doesn't come easily to most tenors who sing Walther. But try to keep your pulse steady while listening to this:


Thanks for the link. I can listen to that kind of awkward all day.


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## Barbebleu

Woodduck said:


> The melody of the Prize Song has been described as awkward. In any case it's hard to sing; it requires sustained lyricism combined with power, and its tessitura hovers around the _passaggio._ That combination of requirements doesn't come easily to most tenors who sing Walther. But try to keep your pulse steady while listening to this:


Yes, there is no question that Melchior makes a silk purse out of this but I still think that, even here, the prize(song) is not worth the candle. :tiphat:


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## DarkAngel

Woodduck said:


> The melody of the Prize Song has been described as awkward. In any case it's hard to sing; it requires sustained lyricism combined with power, and its tessitura hovers around the _passaggio._ That combination of requirements doesn't come easily to most tenors who sing Walther. But try to keep your pulse steady while listening to this:


That may be best version I have heard of prize song by Melchior, he sings it slowly with warm romantic fervor for Eva sitting close by completely in character with words and romantic setting...........often he sings this faster with less feeling and soft voice which leaves me cold by comparison, good find Mr Duck


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## Woodduck

DarkAngel said:


> That may be best version I have heard of prize song by Melchior, he sings it slowly with warm romantic fervor for Eva sitting close by completely in character with words and romantic setting...........often he sings this faster with less feeling and soft voice which leaves me cold by comparison, good find Mr Duck


There's always this for fun:


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## adriesba

Woodduck said:


> There's always this for fun:


I've seen that clip before, but it confuses me. It seems to be from a movie. Melchior is not Melchior? His master's voice dog, what? Is that really how they recorded way back when with tiny orchestras and singers moving closer and farther to the funnel thing? I am so confused.


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## adriesba

zxxyxxz said:


> If anyone is curious about any opera depot recordings now is the time, with the 50% off sale and cds back!


Oh dear... How often do they have CDs? Not buying any this week...


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## zxxyxxz

They only have cds at specific times. Downloads though are always available!


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## Granate

Well, another let down from my purchases. This recording is specially good to enjoy a Kundry, Amfortas and also Gurnemanz in top form, but the conducting and a rough Parsifal don't make me enjoy this at all. I had even bought it in FLAC

I'm now listening to the first installment of the 1977 Munich Ring conducted by Sawallisch (DR and GDR in January, DW and SF in June-July) and despite the SQ, I really like what I'm hearing. I hope it is a great set in my library until Warner reissues the 80s Ring in Stereo.

[HR][/HR]
18-22 MAY (PST)

*Richard Wagner*
DAS RHEINGOLD
DIE WALKÜRE
SIEGFRIED
GÖTTERDÄMMERUNG
on CD​
In the Opera on DVD, Bluray and CD section we just started the poll to vote for our favourite recordings from 150 different operas, starting from the single operas from the Ring until friday, complete Ring on Weekend, and the list will continue every 2 days. Feel free to participate as much as you want.

Visit this thread to start:

*Positions 1-10 Recordings Poll*


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## Woodduck

adriesba said:


> I've seen that clip before, but it confuses me. It seems to be from a movie. Melchior is not Melchior? His master's voice dog, what? Is that really how they recorded way back when with tiny orchestras and singers moving closer and farther to the funnel thing? I am so confused.


It's a movie. Melchior made quite a few of them. This one is "Two Sisters From Boston," released in 1946. They did indeed record that way in the acoustic era, before about 1925. The "His Master's Voice" logo with the dog in front of the recording horn was RCA's trademark.


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## Granate

_On picture: Wagner: Götterdämmerung, Bayreuth Festival 1952, Joseph Keilberth_

Third try to this recording. Siegfried and Brunnhilde are much stronger than I remember. I'm thinking about complementing with the Kna recordings from 1958 and 1957. I think only Gutrune, Waltraute and Siegfried change from 1952 to 1957. I would thank a lot Kna's conducting and SQ, but usually for me the last opera is the toughest, and I don't often care for conducting (even Furtwängler only scores two awesome moments in more than 4h), but I want the best singing and this is giving me the best. Also, more Mödl. Since I may own recordings of Mödl playing the Third Norn, Gutrune, Waltraute and Brunnhilde in the same opera. Lol.

This is going to my wishlist.


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## annaw

Melchior is on a quest to ruin all other Lohengrins...

(I only wonder, if Lohengrin hadn't mentioned that he cannot say his name, would Elsa have remembered to even ask it. :lol


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## millionrainbows

annaw said:


>


Is that a man or a woman?


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## annaw

millionrainbows said:


> Is that a man or a woman?


I don't care as long as in my mind's eye I can imagine a Lohengrin with the looks of Jess Thomas and the voice of Melchior .


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## The Conte

annaw said:


> Melchior is on a quest to ruin all other Lohengrins...
> 
> (I only wonder, if Lohengrin hadn't mentioned that he cannot say his name, would Elsa have remembered to even ask it. :lol


I must listen to this recording, that's a superb cast and whilst I have a Melchior Lohengrin, it has Varnay as Elsa and she doesn't sound right for the role (she was a very good Ortrud, of course).

N.


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## annaw

The Conte said:


> I must listen to this recording, that's a superb cast and whilst I have a Melchior Lohengrin, it has Varnay as Elsa and she doesn't sound right for the role (she was a very good Ortrud, of course).
> 
> N.


Oh, and now I must listen to the one you mentioned! Thanks to all these 50s _Ring_s I haven't had a choice but to start liking Varnay.


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## Woodduck

The Conte said:


> I must listen to this recording, that's a superb cast and whilst I have a Melchior Lohengrin, it has Varnay as Elsa and she doesn't sound right for the role (she was a very good Ortrud, of course).
> 
> N.


Varnay was young in the performance you mention, at least, and her voice wasn't as dark and heavy as it later became. There's a superb Met Sieglinde from her at about the same time. Later on I thought Ortrud was the Wagner role that suited her best, though I realize her Brunnhilde has devoted fans. Rethberg was past her prime by 1940 - she retired just two years later - so I'd be curious to hear how her Elsa sounds.


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## amfortas

annaw said:


> Melchior is on a quest to ruin all other Lohengrins...


And before he dies, he may just do it.


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## The Conte

Woodduck said:


> Varnay was young in the performance you mention, at least, and her voice wasn't as dark and heavy as it later became. There's a superb Met Sieglinde from her at about the same time. Later on I thought Ortrud was the Wagner role that suited her best, though I realize her Brunnhilde has devoted fans. Rethberg was past her prime by 1940 - she retired just two years later - so I'd be curious to hear how her Elsa sounds.


I should give it a listen again as I didn't like her Sieglinde (from 1955), but the singing is so good I've got used to her darker tone in the role. I agree that Ortrud was her Wagner role that suited her best (what a wonderful Venus she would have made). Like Modl I feel she was more of a mezzo than a soprano, but that can pass for Brunhilde, though not for Elsa or Sieglinde.

N.


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## Woodduck

The Conte said:


> I should give it a listen again as I didn't like her Sieglinde (from 1955), but the singing is so good I've got used to her darker tone in the role. I agree that Ortrud was her Wagner role that suited her best (what a wonderful Venus she would have made). Like Modl I feel she was more of a mezzo than a soprano, but that can pass for Brunhilde, though not for Elsa or Sieglinde.
> 
> N.


The Sieglinde I'm speaking of is from 1941. It struck me as virtually ideal in vocal color and weight, as well as dramatically sharp. She was a true soprano then and hadn't developed the loose vibrato or the habit of scooping up to notes that put me off her later work.

It's on YouTube:


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## amfortas

Woodduck said:


> The Sieglinde I'm speaking of is from 1941. It struck me as virtually ideal in vocal color and weight, as well as dramatically sharp. She was a true soprano then and hadn't developed the loose vibrato or the habit of scooping up to notes that put me off her later work.
> 
> It's on YouTube:


It's a performance worth hearing, and of historical interest. Dating from December 6, 1941, the day before Pearl Harbor, it features a 23-year-old Varnay, who had never appeared on any stage, stepping in for an indisposed Lotte Lehmann. It was also the first Brünnhilde of Helen Traubel, after Flagstad's return to German-occupied Norway. Both Traubel and Varnay had impressive debuts, and their Act III scene together is as intense as you'll ever hear.


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## DarkAngel

amfortas said:


> It's a performance worth hearing, and of historical interest. Dating from December 6, 1941, the day before Pearl Harbor, it features a 23-year-old Varnay, who had never appeared on any stage, stepping in for an indisposed Lotte Lehmann. It was also the first Brünnhilde of Helen Traubel, after Flagstad's return to German-occupied Norway. Both Traubel and Varnay had impressive debuts, and their Act III scene together is as intense as you'll ever hear.












An amazing debut for Astrid (known to her astonished local friends as Violet) notice the picture on her vanity, Flagstad later helped her friend immensely with recommendation to Wagner family for 1951 Bayreuth festival, Astrid took over from there......


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## Granate

In the next days I'm going to stream the Bayreuth Canon performances from Metropolitan 50s-60s that I had ignored in my Wagner Challenges. The Italian Opera performances there made me change my mind. Probably they also have amazing singers. Several Meistersingers, Tristan und Isoldes, a Tannhauser, a Parsifal, a Lohengrin, the 61-62 Ring again...

The lengths of the Spotify albums seem suspicious... Are they cut?

I'm going to listen to the Sawallisch Wagner Ring from Rome 1968 too.

I listened to the 1976 Bayreuth Tristan und Isolde again, more than competent singers, but especially a wild Act III.

Which of the Nilsson/Dalis Met Tristans do you prefer? 60 or 61?

Also, today is the last of two to vote for your favourite recording on CD and DVD of Tristan und Isolde. You can follow up the poll here.

*Positions 01-10 - The 2020 Talk Classical Recommended Opera on CD and DVD Poll*


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## Barbebleu

If it’s from the Met then it’s probably cut. Standard practice I believe.


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## wkasimer

Barbebleu said:


> If it's from the Met then it's probably cut. Standard practice I believe.


The practice didn't change until sometime in the 60's, and once Levine took over as principal conductor in 1972 and then music director in 1976, there were no more cuts to Wagner operas. There were a few exceptions before that, though - there's a Leinsdorf-led Walkure from 1940 (I believe it was on tour in Boston) that's uncut.


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## annaw

wkasimer said:


> The practice didn't change until sometime in the 60's, and once Levine took over as principal conductor in 1972 and then music director in 1976, there were no more cuts to Wagner operas. There were a few exceptions before that, though - there's a Leinsdorf-led Walkure from 1940 (I believe it was on tour in Boston) that's uncut.


Maybe this is a silly question but why did Met make so many cuts? Just because of the length or some other reason?


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## wkasimer

annaw said:


> Maybe this is a silly question but why did Met make so many cuts? Just because of the length or some other reason?


Performances at the Old Met were, to some degree, social events as well as musical ones, and the socialites weren't interested in five hours of Wagner. The longer operas - Gotterdammerung, Meistersinger, and Parsifal - were hacked to shreds, to a degree that they can sound to modern ears like highlights.

It was also done to protect singers. Tristan, for example, was always cut before 1970 to protect the tenor lead, even when it was Melchior, who never sang a single uncut Tristan in his entire career, which may be among the reasons that he lasted so long. And conversely, singing a diet of uncut Tristans, as Ben Heppner did for a couple of years, probably didn't help his longevity. Walkure was often cut for Schorr as he aged; the 1940 performance I referenced earlier had the younger Julius Huehn as Wotan.

And I think that the opera world in general was more comfortable with cuts, particularly to Wagner operas, up until about 1970. The only place where they were routinely performed uncut was Bayreuth.


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## annaw

wkasimer said:


> Performances at the Old Met were, to some degree, social events as well as musical ones, and the socialites weren't interested in five hours of Wagner. The longer operas - Gotterdammerung, Meistersinger, and Parsifal - were hacked to shreds, to a degree that they can sound to modern ears like highlights.
> 
> It was also done to protect singers. Tristan, for example, was always cut before 1970 to protect the tenor lead, even when it was Melchior, who never sang a single uncut Tristan in his entire career, which may be among the reasons that he lasted so long. And conversely, singing a diet of uncut Tristans, as Ben Heppner did for a couple of years, probably didn't help his longevity. Walkure was often cut for Schorr as he aged; the 1940 performance I referenced earlier had the younger Julius Huehn as Wotan.
> 
> And I think that the opera world in general was more comfortable with cuts, particularly to Wagner operas, up until about 1970. The only place where they were routinely performed uncut was Bayreuth.


Thanks! That makes sense. A lot of random cuts make following the libretto quite tedious in my opinion ("Oh, Siegfried skipped a whole passage, where's he now??").


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## kineno

The current Met Tristan, premiered 3 or 4 years ago, had, if I’m not mistaken, the traditional cut in act 2; I was quite surprised.


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## wkasimer

kineno said:


> The current Met Tristan, premiered 3 or 4 years ago, had, if I'm not mistaken, the traditional cut in act 2; I was quite surprised.


I wasn't aware of that - thanks. No idea why, unless the director didn't know what to do, or the tenor insisted.


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## VitellioScarpia

wkasimer said:


> I wasn't aware of that - thanks. No idea why, unless the director didn't know what to do, or the tenor insisted.


Maybe the dearth of Wagnerian voices would abate a little if the practice of having cuts would be reintroduced per your comments to ensure singer's longevities.


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## Barbebleu

Perhaps if the singers were properly trained and didn’t try to sing parts that their voices weren’t built for they might last longer! If you can’t sing the part don’t attempt it. I’m pretty sure that composers had something in their minds when they wrote their music and I can’t admire the hubris that performers have when they think they know better than the composer.


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## annaw

Barbebleu said:


> Perhaps if the singers were properly trained and didn't try to sing parts that their voices weren't built for they might last longer! If you can't sing the part don't attempt it. I'm pretty sure that composers had something in their minds when they wrote their music and I can't admire the hubris that performers have when they think they know better than the composer.


I think that making cuts for the sake of keeping singer's voice should be considered only after the singer himself has done everything in his power to keep that voice, has good technique and training and when it's evident that his voice is fit for Wagner's operas. A singer whose voice would be immediately damaged after singing one Tristan probably wouldn't be fit for Wagner anyways. Windgassen sang Tristan with Nilsson 97 times + all Siegfrieds, Tristans and other Wagner tenor roles he sang. Of course his voice started deteriorating as well but only after significant amount of singing. He was also intelligent enough to for example reduce his voice from forte to mezzo-piano whenever the conductor was letting brass section play too loud and thus he knowingly avoided damaging it. Wagner still assumed that everything he wrote would also be sung...


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## Granate

Remarkable performance. Especially the combination of Dalis, Nilsson and Böhm. Vinay is really commited in Act III.


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## wkasimer

Granate said:


> Remarkable performance. Especially the combination of Dalis, Nilsson and Böhm. Vinay is really commited in Act III.


Are there cuts?


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## DarkAngel

^^^^ Even better sound on Pristine XR, Nilsson's MET debut Isolde so extra effort to impress nationwide radio broadcast


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## howlingfantods

vinay has no voice left by 1960. i could barely get through this one. 

if anyone asks what "bayreuth bark" means, just put on vinay's performance here--it's atrocious.


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## wkasimer

howlingfantods said:


> vinay has no voice left by 1960. i could barely get through this one.


I'm not surprised. Two years later, he was singing Telramund in Bayreuth.


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## Granate

howlingfantods said:


> vinay has no voice left by 1960. i could barely get through this one.
> 
> if anyone asks what "bayreuth bark" means, just put on vinay's performance here--it's atrocious.


I was really afraid of this. However, I found him way more than vocally acceptable.

I knew DarkAngel was going to bring in the Pristine remaster. I think I'm always fine with the Walhall releases, but the 1955 Parsifal sounds way better in Pristine. That's for granted.

And there are cuts. As I don't follow a score I don't notice it, but even if it is Böhm, there is a certain felling of rush in the opera.


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## annaw

Any opinions? I listened to a few excerpts and the cast seems very strong.


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## Barbebleu

It’s ok but there are too many negatives to make it first choice. Hotter, woolly and woofy! Suthaus woeful indeed. Some dodgy recording in places. Nilsson on her La Scala debut is great hitting her high notes with deadly accuracy and as written, too accurately. Rysanek is Rysanek and Frick is a wonderfully menacing Hunding.


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## wkasimer

Barbebleu said:


> It's ok but there are too many negatives to make it first choice. Hotter, woolly and woofy! Suthaus woeful indeed.


1958 was pretty late for Suthaus, who'd been singing very heavy repertoire virtually non-stop for two decades.


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## annaw

Thanks! I'm interested to hear Suthaus's Siegmund but I guess 1954 Furtwängler would be better choice then. I only wonder why Furtwängler decided to cast Frantz as Wotan instead of Hotter who was in his prime at that time...


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## wkasimer

annaw said:


> Thanks! I'm interested to hear Suthaus's Siegmund but I guess 1954 Furtwängler would be better choice then. I only wonder why Furtwängler decided to cast Frantz as Wotan instead of Hotter who was in his prime at that time...


Suthaus is excellent on the 1954 Walküre.

I'm not aware of any recording of Hotter with Furtwangler, but I don't know why that is the case.


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## gvn

wkasimer said:


> I'm not aware of any recording of Hotter with Furtwangler, but I don't know why that is the case.


Wasn't Hotter the Mephistopheles in Furtwängler's _Damnation de Faust_, or am I confusing him with someone else?

Still, I think Hotter wouldn't have been most conductors' first choice in any repertoire during the early 1950s. His voice had deteriorated badly since the 1930s (as the 1935 Seidler-Winkler _Walküre_ Act II shows), and although he was a fine actor, so were other baritones with better voices. For that reason Knappertsbusch advised Wieland Wagner not to hire Hotter for the 1951 Bayreuth Festival, and Wieland agreed. (Both, of course, later changed their minds!)

I think Hotter really began to stand out from other baritones when he was assigned the complete Wotan at the 1953 Bayreuth Festival and gave what may, on recorded evidence, have been the finest performances of his life (i.e., those in which the trade-off between voice and acting was best balanced).

We today regard Hotter from a different perspective. The fuzziness of his voice doesn't bother us, because we've heard so much worse so often since. But to people in the early 1950s, Hotter's voice was decidedly worse than anything they had been used to in that repertoire (Schorr, Nissen, Bockelmann, etc., etc.). It took people a number of years to accept the voice for the sake of the acting.


----------



## annaw

gvn said:


> Wasn't Hotter the Mephistopheles in Furtwängler's _Damnation de Faust_, or am I confusing him with someone else?
> 
> Still, I think Hotter wouldn't have been most conductors' first choice in any repertoire during the early 1950s. His voice had deteriorated badly since the 1930s (as the 1935 Seidler-Winkler _Walküre_ Act II shows), and although he was a fine actor, so were other baritones with better voices. For that reason Knappertsbusch advised Wieland Wagner not to hire Hotter for the 1951 Bayreuth Festival, and Wieland agreed. (Both, of course, later changed their minds!)
> 
> I think Hotter really began to stand out from other baritones when he was assigned the complete Wotan at the 1953 Bayreuth Festival and gave what may, on recorded evidence, have been the finest performances of his life (i.e., those in which the trade-off between voice and acting was best balanced).
> 
> We today regard Hotter from a different perspective. The fuzziness of his voice doesn't bother us, because we've heard so much worse so often since. But to people in the early 1950s, Hotter's voice was decidedly worse than anything they had been used to in that repertoire (Schorr, Nissen, Bockelmann, etc., etc.). It took people a number of years to accept the voice for the sake of the acting.


Hotter wasn't hired in 1951 not because his voice wasn't liked but because he underwent a serious vocal crisis in 1950-1951. By 1953 his vocal crisis was over and he came back maybe greater than ever before. Kna was rather fond of him already in late 40s and if I remember correctly then they had a quarrel in 1950 during the Munich Festival when Hotter couldn't give a performamce as great as he usually did. Kna came onstage during 1951 Bayreuth, which wasn't his habit, to apologise for his behaviour. I just listened to Hotter's 1949 _Die Meistersinger_ and though his voice was more appropriate for Wotan, I still found his Sachs to be very spectacular and humane. Then again I'm also quite an ardent fan of Hotter's singing and cannot give an entirely objective assessment.

I did some search - he indeed sang in Furtwängler's _La Damnation de Faust_ in Lucerne 1950. He also performed in _Siegfried_ and _Fidelio_ with Furtwängler conducting but these were apparently not recorded.


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## gvn

annaw said:


> Hotter wasn't hired in 1951 not because his voice wasn't liked but because he underwent a serious vocal crisis in 1950-1951.


Yes, the vocal crisis of 1950-1951 is exactly what I'm describing. That cast a shadow over people's assessments of him for some years to come, even when (as in 1953) his voice partly recovered. As late as 1955-1956 the preferred Heldenbariton for recordings was still Frantz rather than Hotter, as a glance through the Wagner discography will show. But the sheer stature of Hotter's performances eventually won people over.

I belong to the generation for whom Hotter was (and, alas, still is) THE Wotan, THE Gurnemanz, etc. But I well remember, when I was young, hearing older folks shaking their heads wisely and saying, "Ah, but you should have heard Schorr in that role." They, like Furtwängler, Knappertsbusch, etc., came from a different world and naturally had a different perspective from ours.


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## wkasimer

annaw said:


> Hotter wasn't hired in 1951 not because his voice wasn't liked but because he underwent a serious vocal crisis in 1950-1951.


That may be the case, although I hear no particular problem in his December 1950 Met Dutchman:









That said, Rudolf Bing wasn't a fan of Hotter, and he sang Wotan only rarely at the Met. In fact, even in 1954, he was the second cast Wotan in Walkure. Frantz sang Wotan, and Hotter was...Hunding.

Vocal crisis or not, I suspect that people (other than Bing) began to recognize that Hotter was a more complete Wotan than others singing the role during the 50's.


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## annaw

wkasimer said:


> That may be the case, although I hear no particular problem in his December 1950 Met Dutchman:
> 
> View attachment 137083
> 
> 
> That said, Rudolf Bing wasn't a fan of Hotter, and he sang Wotan only rarely at the Met. In fact, even in 1954, he was the second cast Wotan in Walkure. Frantz sang Wotan, and Hotter was...Hunding.
> 
> Vocal crisis or not, I suspect that people (other than Bing) began to recognize that Hotter was a more complete Wotan than others singing the role during the 50's.


Yeah, afterwards Hotter himself also wondered how on earth did 1950 Dutchman turn out to be so successful. Btw, how's that recording in general? I've been thinking of listening to it as I realised that I've entirely neglected the _Dutchman_.

Bing said to Hotter that he should forget about Wagner and sing smaller roles - Hotter left Met after that...


----------



## wkasimer

annaw said:


> Yeah, afterwards Hotter himself also wondered how on earth did 1950 Dutchman turn out to be so successful. Btw, how's that recording in general?


I'm listening to it right now; it's excellent. Hotter's in good voice, and I think that Varnay sounds more youthful here than she did a few years later at Bayreuth. Svanholm is an excellent Erik; the Daland and Steersman aren't on the same level, but they're adequate.



> Bing said to Hotter that he should forget about Wagner and sing smaller roles - Hotter left Met after that...


It must have been galling for Hotter to be relegated to Hunding and the Grand Inquisitor in Don Carlo.


----------



## annaw

wkasimer said:


> I'm listening to it right now; it's excellent. Hotter's in good voice, and I think that Varnay sounds more youthful here than she did a few years later at Bayreuth. Svanholm is an excellent Erik; the Daland and Steersman aren't on the same level, but they're adequate.
> 
> It must have been galling for Hotter to be relegated to Hunding and the Grand Inquisitor in Don Carlo.


Thanks! Then I have to give it a listen!

Indeed, Hotter probably wasn't overly excited about being called one of the greatest Hundings instead of one the greatest Wotans :lol:.


----------



## Granate

Schöffler as Hans Sachs,
Hopf as Walther
*VDLA as Eva*
Greindl as Pogner

Another remarkable performance from the Met. I listened to it entirely, and I rarely would listen to an entire Meistersinger.


----------



## amfortas

annaw said:


> Yeah, afterwards Hotter himself also wondered how on earth did 1950 Dutchman turn out to be so successful. Btw, how's that recording in general? I've been thinking of listening to it as I realised that I've entirely neglected the _Dutchman_.


As it happens, I ordered it a few days back, on the strength of Paul Jackson's praise in his book _Sign-Off for the Old Met_. Jackson, never hesitant to criticize, called the Reiner-led performance a "musical triumph." Hotter "easily encompasses all facets of the role" while "his rich, dark tones often seemed filled with an interior light." Varnay gives a "superb portrayal" in "one of her finest broadcast performances." Jackson gives similar praise to other individual singers and the choruses.

So it *better* be good!


----------



## annaw

I've been slowly discovering the recordings from 30s and 40s and those I've heard have been great so far (why, oh why did Met think it's a good idea to cut them so severely!). What are some of the must-haves?


----------



## adriesba

annaw said:


> I've been slowly discovering the recordings from 30s and 40s and those I've heard have been great so far (why, oh why did Met think it's a good idea to cut them so severely!). What are some of the must-haves?


I don't know what was with the cuts back then. Crazy!

Not sure if it's a must-have, but I've listened to some of this and found it interesting:

View attachment 137624


----------



## JAS

It may well be that what you see as cuts are mostly reflections of the limitations inherent in recording technology of the time.


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## annaw

JAS said:


> It may well be that what you see as cuts are mostly reflections of the limitations inherent in recording technology of the time.


I think there are multiple reasons why the operas were cut and these were quite recently discussed here as well. I'm actually very grateful for even being able to listen to such singers as Schorr, Melchior, Flagstad etc. no matter whether in cut or complete recordings.


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## The Conte

I like the Flagstad/Lawrence/Schorr/Melchior Ring recordings. Yes, they are cut, the sound and orchestral playing are what they are and they could never be first choices. However they are essential for those who like the cycle.

The Dream Ring on Immortal Performances splices in various parts of different recordings (although the main body of them are taken up by the Met 1936/7 Ring). I prefer to have the authentic 'as heard in the theatre' sets and the following would be my choice for each opera live by the Met in the 30s/40s:

Rheingold








Walkure








Siegfried/Gotterdamerung








I thoroughly recommend the Wager at the Met red box for vintage Wagner recordings, there is something to recommend in each one.

N.


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## howlingfantods

annaw said:


> I've been slowly discovering the recordings from 30s and 40s and those I've heard have been great so far (why, oh why did Met think it's a good idea to cut them so severely!). What are some of the must-haves?


I generally prefer recordings from that era from germany and england over those from the Met.

Probably the most "essential" would be the Muck Parsifal excerpts, the Reiner Tristan (1936), the Abendroth Meistersinger (1943), the Walter Walkure Act 1 (1938), Furtwangler Walkure and Gotterdammerung excerpts (1937). Next would be the Heger Lohengrin (1942), Kraus Hollander (1942), Jochum Meistersinger (1943), Leonhardt Hollander (1936). The Bohm Meistersinger from 1944 is very good too. And the Moralt 1949 Ring.


----------



## Barbebleu

howlingfantods said:


> I generally prefer recordings from that era from germany and england over those from the Met.
> 
> Probably the most "essential" would be the Muck Parsifal excerpts, the Reiner Tristan (1936), the Abendroth Meistersinger (1943), the Walter Walkure Act 1 (1938), Furtwangler Walkure and Gotterdammerung excerpts (1937). Next would be the Heger Lohengrin (1942), Kraus Hollander (1942), Jochum Meistersinger (1943), Leonhardt Hollander (1936). The Bohm Meistersinger from 1944 is very good too. And the Moralt 1949 Ring.


Lovely choices Howling! Wouldn't disagree with any of them. I was looking through my vinyl this afternoon and I came across a double album that I'd completely forgotten about. 100 Jahre Parsifal on the German EMI Dacapo label, released in 1982. Good stuff and never released on CD. I'll need to hitch up my turntable and give it a spin.


----------



## wkasimer

JAS said:


> It may well be that what you see as cuts are mostly reflections of the limitations inherent in recording technology of the time.


No, these are live performances. The Met used to cut Parsifal, Meistersinger, and Gotterdammerung to shreds.


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## wkasimer

howlingfantods said:


> I generally prefer recordings from that era from germany and england over those from the Met.
> 
> Probably the most "essential" would be the Muck Parsifal excerpts, the Reiner Tristan (1936), the Abendroth Meistersinger (1943), the Walter Walkure Act 1 (1938), Furtwangler Walkure and Gotterdammerung excerpts (1937). Next would be the Heger Lohengrin (1942), Kraus Hollander (1942), Jochum Meistersinger (1943), Leonhardt Hollander (1936). The Bohm Meistersinger from 1944 is very good too. And the Moralt 1949 Ring.


Great choices, but the Jochum Meistersinger was from 1949.

I'd also recommend the 1940 Met Walküre, conducted by Leinsdorf. And if you can find it, the 1937 Meistersinger conducted by Toscanini.


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## annaw

Thanks for great recommendations! I'll certainly try to find these!


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## The Conte

wkasimer said:


> Great choices, but the Jochum Meistersinger was from 1949.
> 
> *I'd also recommend the 1940 Met Walküre, conducted by Leinsdorf.* And if you can find it, the 1937 Meistersinger conducted by Toscanini.


Which 1940 Walkure, is that the one I referred to above with Lawrence as Brunhilde, or the one in the Wagner at the Met box set with Flagstad as Brunhilde and Lawrence as Sieglinde?

N.


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## wkasimer

The Conte said:


> Which 1940 Walkure, is that the one I referred to above with Lawrence as Brunhilde, or the one in the Wagner at the Met box set with Flagstad as Brunhilde and Lawrence as Sieglinde?


The latter. The former is cut, but does feature Lehmann as Sieglinde. Schorr is past his best, though.


----------



## howlingfantods

adriesba said:


> I don't know what was with the cuts back then. Crazy!
> 
> Not sure if it's a must-have, but I've listened to some of this and found it interesting:
> 
> View attachment 137624


There is some really good singing here--I especially enjoy Janssen's Wolfram, Kipnis is good, and Melchior fades a bit but is obviously one of the best Tannhausers on record.

Thorborg and Traubel aren't ideal in their roles--Thorborg is a little too dark and dramatic and insufficiently sensual, and she has problems with the tessitura--she badly flats on a couple of notes. Traubel is similar--she is an excellent Sieglinde that throws into relief how different an ideal Sieglinde voice is from an ideal Elisabeth despite both being roles performed by many singers. She is dramatic and gripping but has little of the purity or sweetness that distinguishes the greatest Elisabeths. And she slides off a high note or two too.

But the real problem with this recording is Szell, who appears to have little feel for this score. Tannhauser is maybe the most purely lush and sensually beautiful of Wagner's operas, and this performance is perfunctory and drab.


----------



## Barbebleu

wkasimer said:


> Great choices, but the Jochum Meistersinger was from 1949.
> 
> I'd also recommend the 1940 Met Walküre, conducted by Leinsdorf. And if you can find it, the 1937 Meistersinger conducted by Toscanini.


Well spotted with the Jochum. Embarrassingly I have that recording and didn't notice the year was incorrect.


----------



## The Conte

wkasimer said:


> The latter. The former is cut, but does feature Lehmann as Sieglinde. Schorr is past his best, though.


Thanks. I have both and have a preference for the former as I am not that bothered by the cuts in a performance of that vintage and I prefer Lehmann, Schorr, Lawrence and Thorborg over their counterparts in the other set. I need to listen to Schorr more (I can't decide how much I like his Wotan and haven't noticed him not being as good as in his other Wagner recordings).

N.


----------



## wkasimer

The Conte said:


> Thanks. I have both and have a preference for the former as I am not that bothered by the cuts in a performance of that vintage and I prefer Lehmann, Schorr, Lawrence and Thorborg over their counterparts in the other set. I need to listen to Schorr more (I can't decide how much I like his Wotan and haven't noticed him not being as good as in his other Wagner recordings).


Which of Schorr's recordings have you heard? If you've only heard the live Met stuff, you really haven't heard Schorr anywhere near his best. With Schorr, the earlier the better - even his acoustics from the early 1920's. This is how I first heard Schorr many years ago (it was on LP, though), and I highly recommend it as an introduction to both Schorr and Leider:


----------



## annaw

I finished listening to Keilberth's 1955 _Der Fliegende Holländer_ which was very wonderful but I started wondering about one thing. I've got an impression that one of the main objection against Varnay's singing is that she "scoops up notes". I understand that it basically means that the singer starts on a pitch that's below the one she means to sing. How can one hear this? I just seem to be unable to, but I guess this has something to do with my inexperience as well... Maybe I should just be happy that I cannot hear it (yet).

I hope this question is not too off-topic for the thread.

EDIT: Now I listened how Nilsson begins Senta's ballade and compared to Varnay's recording. I think I might be starting to understand what this scooping means .


----------



## Woodduck

annaw said:


> I finished listening to Keilberth's 1955 _Der Fliegende Holländer_ which was very wonderful but I started wondering about one thing. I've got an impression that one of the main objection against Varnay's singing is that she "scoops up notes". I understand that it basically means that the singer starts on a pitch that's below the one she means to sing. How can one hear this? I just seem to be unable to, but I guess this has something to do with my inexperience as well... Maybe I should just be happy that I cannot hear it (yet).
> 
> I hope this question is not too off-topic for the thread.
> 
> EDIT: Now I listened how Nilsson begins Senta's ballade and compared to Varnay's recording. I think I might be starting to understand what this scooping means .


The scooping was a habit that increased as Varnay aged. I don't hear it in her pre-1950s work. As for Nilsson, she never scooped up to a note in her life, not even to reach the high notes, which seemed to come out of the sky like Jove's thunderbolts.

For a good demonstration of scooping, listen to Italian tenors like Giuseppe di Stefano and Franco Corelli. Then listen to Jussi Bjorling for a corrective. Evidently scooping is forbidden in Sweden.


----------



## annaw

Woodduck said:


> The scooping was a habit that increased as Varnay aged. I don't hear it in her pre-1950s work. As for Nilsson, she never scooped up to a note in her life, not even to reach the high notes, which seemed to come out of the sky like Jove's thunderbolts.
> 
> For a good demonstration of scooping, listen to Italian tenors like Giuseppe di Stefano and Franco Corelli. Then listen to Jussi Bjorling for a corrective. Evidently scooping is forbidden in Sweden.


That was a huge help! I listened to those three and I start getting a feeling that what I've so far categorised as "clear" or precise is just singing without scooping. I listened to Flagstad's Icon disc earlier this week and I was amazed by her ability to reach high notes so effortlessly - I guess she didn't scoop either? There was evidently something going on in the Nordics .


----------



## Woodduck

annaw said:


> There was evidently something going on in the Nordics .


There's definitely a different stylstic tradition. I gather some Italians have considered Bjorling too "cool," and Flagstad and Nilsson have both been characterized that way. National temperament is real. Of course Varnay grew up in Sweden too (though her name is Hungarian), and was something of a Flagstad protege.


----------



## annaw

Woodduck said:


> There's definitely a different stylstic tradition. I gather some Italians have considered Bjorling too "cool," and Flagstad and Nilsson have both been characterized that way. National temperament is real. Of course Varnay grew up in Sweden too (though her name is Hungarian), and was something of a Flagstad protege.


I've certainly heard that said about Flagstad but that's a thing I've never really been able to recognise or at least it has never disturbed me. In fact, I sometimes find listening to German opera extremely refreshing after a lot of Italian opera which I find sometimes overly sweet and warm, at least in big amounts. But I'm half Finnish and maybe this national temperament extends to the listener as well...


----------



## Barbebleu

Woodduck said:


> The scooping was a habit that increased as Varnay aged. I don't hear it in her pre-1950s work. As for Nilsson, she never scooped up to a note in her life, not even to reach the high notes, which seemed to come out of the sky like Jove's thunderbolts.
> 
> For a good demonstration of scooping, listen to Italian tenors like Giuseppe di Stefano and Franco Corelli. Then listen to Jussi Bjorling for a corrective. Evidently scooping is forbidden in Sweden.


Wagner does ask for a "scoop", really a portamento, on some of the "hojoto hos" in Walküre which Nilsson ignores. She hits all the high notes cleanly which, oddly, was not Wagner's desire. I don't mind but some purists do!


----------



## Woodduck

Barbebleu said:


> Wagner does ask for a "scoop", really a portamento, on some of the "hojoto hos" in Walküre which Nilsson ignores. She hits all the high notes cleanly which, oddly, was not Wagner's desire. I don't mind but some purists do!


It's an interesting departure from the text. It works for her, though.

As you indicate, a scoop and a portamento are two very different things.


----------



## annaw

Barbebleu said:


> Wagner does ask for a "scoop", really a portamento, on some of the "hojoto hos" in Walküre which Nilsson ignores. She hits all the high notes cleanly which, oddly, was not Wagner's desire. I don't mind but some purists do!


Now I ended up listening to quite a lot of hojotohos by Varnay and Nilsson, I'll never finish Kna's '55 Dutchman if I continue like this :lol:.


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## adriesba

Barbebleu said:


> Wagner does ask for a "scoop", really a portamento, on some of the "hojoto hos" in Walküre which Nilsson ignores. She hits all the high notes cleanly which, oddly, was not Wagner's desire. I don't mind but some purists do!


Aren't there also trills there that many singers ignore?


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## Woodduck

adriesba said:


> Aren't there also trills there that many singers ignore?


They're really impossible to ignore, so everyone does whatever approximation of a trill they can manage. Few dramatic sopranos do them well.


----------



## VitellioScarpia

Woodduck said:


> It's an interesting departure from the text. It works for her, though.
> 
> As you indicate, a scoop and a portamento are two very different things.


There are some singers that do not use portamento at all and, thus, they rob some passion from the music. It is a stylistic choice but I miss it when some have shown how effective it can be. Some notable examples are in Verdi: Amneris' _Morire!~Ah, tu dei vivere..._ or Violetta's _... sempre, sempre tra quei fior.~Amami, Alfredo!_.


----------



## annaw

On an entirely different topic...



wkasimer said:


> I'm listening to it right now; it's excellent. Hotter's in good voice, and I think that Varnay sounds more youthful here than she did a few years later at Bayreuth. Svanholm is an excellent Erik; the Daland and Steersman aren't on the same level, but they're adequate.


Now I'm finally listening to this [Met 1950 Dutchman] as well and I totally agree with you! Hotter is very excellent - insightful and intelligent as always. Having listened to Kna 55, Keilberth 55 and 56 during these last few days, I'd say I like Varnay's Senta here best and her singing sounds somewhat "cleaner" and certainly more youthful compared to later Bayreuth recordings. Steersman is IMO vocally decent but in the first scene he just doesn't sound tired at all... I like Reiner's quick tempi but I think they work only thanks to masterful leads who can cope with them.


----------



## The Conte

annaw said:


> On an entirely different topic...
> 
> Now I'm finally listening to this [Met 1950 Dutchman] as well and I totally agree with you! Hotter is very excellent - insightful and intelligent as always. Having listened to Kna 55, Keilberth 55 and 56 during these last few days, I'd say I like Varnay's Senta here best and her singing sounds somewhat "cleaner" and certainly more youthful compared to later Bayreuth recordings. Steersman is IMO vocally decent but in the first scene he just doesn't sound tired at all... I like Reiner's quick tempi but I think they work only thanks to masterful leads who can cope with them.


I love your interesting observations here. Which do you think has the best conducting out of the Met 1950 Dutchman, Kna 55 and Keilberth 55?

N.


----------



## amfortas

annaw said:


> Now I'm finally listening to this [Met 1950 Dutchman] as well and I totally agree with you! Hotter is very excellent - insightful and intelligent as always. Having listened to Kna 55, Keilberth 55 and 56 during these last few days, I'd say I like Varnay's Senta here best and her singing sounds somewhat "cleaner" and certainly more youthful compared to later Bayreuth recordings. Steersman is IMO vocally decent but in the first scene he just doesn't sound tired at all... I like Reiner's quick tempi but I think they work only thanks to masterful leads who can cope with them.


I just pulled my copy out of the mailbox this morning. Now I'm looking forward to listening even more!


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## annaw

The Conte said:


> I love your interesting observations here. Which do you think has the best conducting out of the Met 1950 Dutchman, Kna 55 and Keilberth 55?
> 
> N.


I see the _Dutchman_ certainly as the most youthful of Wagner's operas and therefore I like swift youthful conducting. Reiner goes a bit too far at times. Especially with the choruses - it starts sounding somewhat rushed and the dictation suffers from that but luckily the leads don't. Even Hotter who didn't have an exactly agile voice. I start getting a feeling that it was his legato which enabled him to move from one phrase to another very quickly, if he needed to.

For me the _Dutchman_ can hardly sound dragged thanks to Wagner but Kna takes it a bit slower than I'd like. I was very impressed with Bayreuth chorus who managed the slow tempi, not everyone would have.. Keilberth grasped the opera itself, in my opinion, better than Kna who seemed to conduct it slightly similarly to Wagner's late operas which have less rhythm and more flow than the _Dutchman_. Keilberth supports the leads nicely and doesn't make the life for the chorus too difficult either. I go with Keilberth 55 conducting!

In overall, I cannot decide between Kna and Keilberth 55s - it's like Windgassen vs. Keilberth :lol:.


----------



## The Conte

annaw said:


> I see the _Dutchman_ certainly as the most youthful of Wagner's operas and therefore I like swift youthful conducting. Reiner goes a bit too far at times. Especially with the choruses - it starts sounding somewhat rushed and the dictation suffers from that but luckily the leads don't. Even Hotter who didn't have an exactly agile voice. I start getting a feeling that it was his legato which enabled him to move from one phrase to another very quickly, if he needed to.
> 
> For me the _Dutchman_ can hardly sound dragged thanks to Wagner but Kna takes it a bit slower than I'd like. I was very impressed with Bayreuth chorus who managed the slow tempi, not everyone would have.. Keilberth grasped the opera itself, in my opinion, better than Kna who seemed to conduct it slightly similarly to Wagner's late operas which have less rhythm and more flow than the _Dutchman_. Keilberth supports the leads nicely and doesn't make the life for the chorus too difficult either. I go with Keilberth 55 conducting!
> 
> In overall, I cannot decide between Kna and Keilberth 55s - it's like Windgassen vs. Keilberth :lol:.


Very true! I did a listening comparison between the Kna and Keilberth a few months back and there are both superb performances. I'm not that keen on the Dutchman as an opera and so it's not an opera that I feel I can justify having millions of recordings of, but there are too many singers/conductors I like all in different sets for me not to have a more recordings than I would ideally want for an opera I don't listen to that much. I have the Klemperer and the Reiner for their importance (and the performing editions), then the Konwitschny, the Barenboim and the Sinopoli. I can only just about defend having a sixth set and since I have a penchant for slower speeds in general I plumed for the Kna. However, as already said the 55 Bayreuth recordings are both marvelous and available in great sound. Some will need both, but if you must just pick one then it's a personal preference for the type of conducting you prefer.

N.


----------



## annaw

The Conte said:


> Very true! I did a listening comparison between the Kna and Keilberth a few months back and there are both superb performances. I'm not that keen on the Dutchman as an opera and so it's not an opera that I feel I can justify having millions of recordings of, but there are too many singers/conductors I like all in different sets for me not to have a more recordings than I would ideally want for an opera I don't listen to that much. I have the Klemperer and the Reiner for their importance (and the performing editions), then the Konwitschny, the Barenboim and the Sinopoli. I can only just about defend having a sixth set and since I have a penchant for slower speeds in general I plumed for the Kna. However, as already said the 55 Bayreuth recordings are both marvelous and available in great sound. Some will need both, but if you must just pick one then it's a personal preference for the type of conducting you prefer.
> 
> N.


Yes, I agree, it largely comes down to personal preference. I'm happy I don't have to choose though, especially between the two 55 recordings because both have their merits and Kna's conducting is by no means bad but just different. I really loved the singing and character portrayal in Kna's recording (it has Windgassen after all).


----------



## annaw

Woodduck said:


> They're really impossible to ignore, so everyone does whatever approximation of a trill they can manage. Few dramatic sopranos do them well.


I'm maybe getting absolutely off-topic again, but I stumbled upon this: 



. Very stunning trills in hojotohos! I suppose Leider was one of those few dramatic sopranos who managed these.


----------



## adriesba

annaw said:


> I'm maybe getting absolutely off-topic again, but I stumbled upon this:
> 
> 
> 
> . Very stunning trills in hojotohos! I suppose Leider was one of those few dramatic sopranos who managed these.


Yes, indeed very lovely! That's why I was under the impression that other sopranos just ignored the trills. Compared to Leider, others sound like they aren't doing trills.


----------



## Woodduck

annaw said:


> I'm maybe getting absolutely off-topic again, but I stumbled upon this:
> 
> 
> 
> . Very stunning trills in hojotohos! I suppose Leider was one of those few dramatic sopranos who managed these.


No one on record does it better. Superb singer, excellent actress, and Melchior's favorite partner as Brunnhilde and Isolde. Even after the reign of the Flagstad-Melchior duo began at the Met, many preferred Leider. She had the voice and technique to sing everything well: Mozart, Verdi, Puccini, Bellini - a worthy successor to Lilli Lehmann. They don't make 'em like that any more.


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## DarkAngel

annaw said:


> Yes, I agree, it largely comes down to personal preference. I'm happy I don't have to choose though, especially between the two 55 recordings because both have their merits and Kna's conducting is by no means bad but just different. I really loved the singing and character portrayal in Kna's recording (it has Windgassen after all).


To round out this era of great Dutchman recordings probably should get one of the Rysanek - London sets, 60 MET Schippers or 59 Bayreuth Sawallisch live or studio 61 Dorati......


----------



## annaw

DarkAngel said:


> To round out this era of great Dutchman recordings probably should get one of the Rysanek - London sets, 60 MET Schippers or 59 Bayreuth Sawallisch live or studio 61 Dorati......


Thank you for the recommendations! I've actually been listening to Sawallisch 1959 and was hoping to finish it today. Rysanek is a very wonderful Senta though it's quite a contrast after the Varnay recordings.


----------



## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> To round out this era of great Dutchman recordings probably should get one of the Rysanek - London sets, 60 MET Schippers or 59 Bayreuth Sawallisch live or studio 61 Dorati......


Or all three of them!


----------



## howlingfantods

For a Rysanek/London Hollander, I still find the Bohm 1963 to be the best. Not quite as good sound as the Schippers on Pristine, but still very listenable, and one of the best Eriks in Sandor Konya and a very nice Daland performance from George Tozzi. I wish Andrew Rose had picked this one for his Pristine remaster over the similar but worse 1960 performance.

Although I suppose it's worth mentioning that I don't much like London's Hollander, so saying it's the best London recording isn't really saying much in my case. In fact, maybe the good thing about the Schippers is that the voices are a little recessed compared to the Bohm, so you hear him a little less :devil:


----------



## wkasimer

howlingfantods said:


> For a Rysanek/London Hollander, I still find the Bohm 1963 to be the best. Not quite as good sound as the Schippers on Pristine, but still very listenable, and one of the best Eriks in Sandor Konya and a very nice Daland performance from George Tozzi. I wish Andrew Rose had picked this one for his Pristine remaster over the similar but worse 1960 performance.


I haven't heard this one, but I'm guessing that it's a little late for London, whose voice deteriorated fairly rapidly in the early 1960's.



> Although I suppose it's worth mentioning that I don't much like London's Hollander, so saying it's the best London recording isn't really saying much in my case.


I'm not a big fan of George London in general, but I think that the Dutchman and Amfortas were his best roles. That said, I prefer others - especially Hotter and Crass.


----------



## howlingfantods

wkasimer said:


> I haven't heard this one, but I'm guessing that it's a little late for London, whose voice deteriorated fairly rapidly in the early 1960's.


I suppose? I think he sounds pretty mediocre on all the Hollanders with Rysanek--his best Hollander is the 1956 Kna with Varnay, but then you have to put up with Varnay, and honestly, I don't think London at his best is much better for me than London at his worst. Oddly I think my favorite London performance (although that's not saying much) is probably one of the latest ones I have on record, his Golaud on the 1964 Ansermet Pelleas.


----------



## Granate

I think you mixed the Keilberth Hollander in Bayreuth 1956 (Kna was never going to conduct the opera there in 1955 but had to stand up for a last minute illness)... Now I want to listen to that performance again. For a second time. Didn't remember it was London.

I don't find his Met 60 or Bayreuth 59 Hollanders very attractive. I really love his 1960 Metropolitan Golaud in a Morel _Pelléas et Mélisande_ performance with an all-star cast. Top recommendation.



wkasimer said:


> I'm not a big fan of George London in general, but I think that the Dutchman and Amfortas were his best roles. That said, I prefer others - especially Hotter and Crass.


I'd love to get a single edition of the Philips Hollander. The only stereo I'd like to own. Crass-Silja-Sawallisch is electric.


----------



## annaw

Granate said:


> I think you mixed the Keilberth Hollander in Bayreuth 1956 (Kna was never going to conduct the opera there in 1955 but had to stand up for a last minute illness)... Now I want to listen to that performance again. For a second time. Didn't remember it was London.
> 
> I don't find his Met 60 or Bayreuth 59 Hollanders very attractive. I really love his 1960 Metropolitan Golaud in a Morel _Pelléas et Mélisande_ performance with an all-star cast. Top recommendation.
> 
> *I'd love to get a single edition of the Philips Hollander. The only stereo I'd like to own. Crass-Silja-Sawallisch is electric.*


Is it the 1960 Bayreuth performance? Am I right that a mono recording of the same performance has been released as well?


----------



## wkasimer

annaw said:


> Is it the 1960 Bayreuth performance? Am I right that a mono recording of the same performance has been released as well?


I think that it's 1961. I believe that Crass was a late replacement for London, who was indisposed.


----------



## howlingfantods

Granate said:


> I think you mixed the Keilberth Hollander in Bayreuth 1956 (Kna was never going to conduct the opera there in 1955 but had to stand up for a last minute illness)...


Oops yes, it's Keilberth. I haven't listened to any of my Varnay recordings in several years.


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## annaw

wkasimer said:


> I think that it's 1961. I believe that Crass was a late replacement for London, who was indisposed.


Oh okay, makes sense!


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## damianjb1

I apologise if this has previously been discussed (I've not been able to go through all 317 pages) but I was keen to hear people's opinion of the Reginald Goodall Ring Cycle. It's probably not quite a historical Wagner recording - maybe almost??. I recently listened to it and was absolutely blown away by it. There are moments in it, particularly in GÖTTERDÄMMERUNG that are some of the best Wagner I've ever heard. The three leads - Norman Bailey as Wotan, Alberto Remedios as Siegmund and Siegfried, and Rita Hunter as Brünnhilde are all magnificent. It takes a little while to get used to it being in English but I quickly adjusted. I loved it. It's not often mentioned when great Ring Cycles are discussed and I think that's unjust. In my very humble opionion it's a great Ring Cycle.


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## annaw

^ I must admit that what has kept me from listening to Gooddall's _Ring_ is the language and the fact that there're way too many German _Ring_s I haven't yet listened to. Maybe I'm just very prejudiced but I love how Wagner used German language. I like the strong emphasis on consonants (if I recall correctly from one of her talks, then this was something even Flagstad was asked to work on when she started singing Wagner), particularly R-sounds. Maybe I should forget my prejudices and just listen though...


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## wkasimer

damianjb1 said:


> I apologise if this has previously been discussed (I've not been able to go through all 317 pages) but I was keen to hear people's opinion of the Reginald Goodall Ring Cycle. It's probably not quite a historical Wagner recording - maybe almost??. I recently listened to it and was absolutely blown away by it. There are moments in it, particularly in GÖTTERDÄMMERUNG that are some of the best Wagner I've ever heard. The three leads - Norman Bailey as Wotan, Alberto Remedios as Siegmund and Siegfried, and Rita Hunter as Brünnhilde are all magnificent. It takes a little while to get used to it being in English but I quickly adjusted. I loved it. It's not often mentioned when great Ring Cycles are discussed and I think that's unjust. In my very humble opionion it's a great Ring Cycle.
> 
> View attachment 138415


I mention it at every opportunity, because despite the language, it's one of my favorite RING cycles. Actually, I find some of Goodall's tempi more problematic than Andrew Porter's excellent translation. And as you note, Bailey, Remedios, and Hunter are exceptional - I don't think that any other RING recording features such a strong trio in those three major roles. Remedios, in particular, is the finest Siegfried since Melchior.


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## Barbebleu

FYI all. Opera Depot are having a 50% off for all Meistersingers plus a free download of Meistersinger, Stockholm 1962 with Svanholm, Søderstrom, Sigurd Bjorling and Talvela, conducted by Herbert Sandberg. They have a new Meistersinger from Bayreuth 1973 too.


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## annaw

Barbebleu said:


> FYI all. Opera Depot are having a 50% off for all Meistersingers plus a free download of Meistersinger, Stockholm 1962 with Svanholm, Søderstrom, Sigurd Bjorling and Talvela. Conducted by Herbert Sandberg. They have a new Meistersinger from Bayreuth 1973 too.


Yeess!! Thank you for the hint !


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## Barbebleu

annaw said:


> Yeess!! Thank you for the hint !


You are welcome. :tiphat:


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## Barbebleu

With regard to the posts above about the Goodall Ring I would say that, even though it’s sung in English, it does no harm to have Porter’s translation at hand. Anything sung can sound indistinct even when the singer’s diction is exemplary.


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## damianjb1

Barbebleu said:


> With regard to the posts above about the Goodall Ring I would say that, even though it's sung in English, it does no harm to have Porter's translation at hand. Anything sung can sound indistinct even when the singer's diction is exemplary.


Overall, I thought the diction was pretty good. I was especially struck in the opening scene how nice it was to understand what was being sung. Every word of Alberich's was crystal clear.


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## damianjb1

wkasimer said:


> I mention it at every opportunity, because despite the language, it's one of my favorite RING cycles. Actually, I find some of Goodall's tempi more problematic than Andrew Porter's excellent translation. And as you note, Bailey, Remedios, and Hunter are exceptional - I don't think that any other RING recording features such a strong trio in those three major roles. Remedios, in particular, is the finest Siegfried since Melchior.


I was surprised that it wasn't as slow as I was expecting it to be. Sure, it's leisurely but I can't think of a spot where I was desperately wanting him to move it along. And I completely agree with your comment regarding Remedios. I was constantly struck by how beautiful his voice was. And how often can you say that about a Siegfried??


----------



## damianjb1

annaw said:


> ^ I must admit that what has kept me from listening to Gooddall's _Ring_ is the language and the fact that there're way too many German _Ring_s I haven't yet listened to. Maybe I'm just very prejudiced but I love how Wagner used German language. I like the strong emphasis on consonants (if I recall correctly from one of her talks, then this was something even Flagstad was asked to work on when she started singing Wagner), particularly R-sounds. Maybe I should forget my prejudices and just listen though...


I'd highly recommend you give it a go. You'll get to hear a Brünnhilde who can actually trill.


----------



## annaw

damianjb1 said:


> I'd highly recommend you give it a go. You'll get to hear a Brünnhilde who can actually trill.


Yes, Brünnhilde who can trill!! You guys have got me rather interested for sure.

By the way, your previous post about beautiful-sounding Siegfried made me recall something I read recently. Nilsson described Windgassen's voice as "not big but beautiful and well-focused". Maybe it was some Wagnerian sense of beauty or I'm missing something (don't get me wrong, I love Windgassen).


----------



## Barbebleu

damianjb1 said:


> And I completely agree with your comment regarding Remedios. I was constantly struck by how beautiful his voice was. And how often can you say that about a Siegfried??


I have him singing Lohengrin at Sadlers Wells in London 1971. Lovely voice. I had the pleasure of hearing him singing Siegfried when they brought the ENO Ring to Glasgow in 1976. That was a fabulous cycle.


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## VitellioScarpia

annaw said:


> Yes, Brünnhilde who can trill!! You guys have got me rather interested for sure.
> 
> By the way, your previous post about beautiful-sounding Siegfried made me recall something I read recently. Nilsson described Windgassen's voice as "not big but beautiful and well-focused". Maybe it was some Wagnerian sense of beauty or I'm missing something (don't get me wrong, I love Windgassen).


We tend to define as "beautiful" the more rounded voices than the more piercing ones especially based on recordings. I think that this relates to how a voice sounds in recordings versus live. I heard Linda Kelm singing Turandot at the NYCO in the early 80s and in the theater her voice was powerful and warm/rounded. The physical experience of her riding the chorus in _Mi vuoi tu cupa d'odio, riluttante e fremente_ was amazing. When I listened to the broadcast from San Francisco with her, however exciting the performance, I cannot say that she sounded "warm" but piercing. That it is the case of many singers (I will not bore you with more examples) who need the space around their voices.


----------



## annaw

VitellioScarpia said:


> We tend to define as "beautiful" the more rounded voices than the more piercing ones especially based on recordings. *I think that this relates to how a voice sounds in recordings versus live.* I heard Linda Kelm singing Turandot at the NYCO in the early 80s and in the theater her voice was powerful and warm/rounded. The physical experience of her riding the chorus in _Mi vuoi tu cupa d'odio, riluttante e fremente_ was amazing. When I listened to the broadcast from San Francisco with her, however exciting the performance, I cannot say that she sounded "warm" but piercing. That it is the case of many singers (I will not bore you with more examples) who need the space around their voices.


That would explain why Nilsson who sang with him might have heard the certain beauty we don't get from the recordings. Windgassen certainly had a very distinctive timbre and dictation. The latter used to drive me mad (luckily not anymore) but I think they might have sounded different live.


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## wkasimer

damianjb1 said:


> I was surprised that it wasn't as slow as I was expecting it to be. Sure, it's leisurely but I can't think of a spot where I was desperately wanting him to move it along.


The ends of the acts of Siegfried are rather too leisurely for my taste.


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## PMarlowe

I suspect this has been discussed numerous times, but I'd rather not read 318 pages to find out. Perhaps a few here can help me quickly with their thoughts on the Knappertsbusch Bayreuth Rings (performance and sound quality). Thanks in advance.


----------



## wkasimer

PMarlowe said:


> I suspect this has been discussed numerous times, but I'd rather not read 318 pages to find out. Perhaps a few here can help me quickly with their thoughts on the Knappertsbusch Bayreuth Rings (performance and sound quality). Thanks in advance.


1956 is probably the most coherent conducting-wise, and has the best sound (I have the M&A issue, and I assume that the Orfeo sounds at least as good, and possibly better). The negatives for this cycle are that Windgassen isn't a very good Siegmund (he stepped in at the last minute for an indisposed Vinay), and Paul Kuen's Mime is, IMO, virtually unlistenable - he is a blot on virtually every Siegfried recording on which he sings. I'm also not wild about Suthaus' Loge - its a shame that he didn't sing Siegmund and leave Loge to Windgassen. Hotter is in somewhat better voice here, although not as good as in 1953.

I rule out 1957 because Bernd Aldenhoff is a pretty dreadful young Siegfried - and the Gotterdammerung from this cycle is almost impossible to find. I also features Kuen's dreadful caterwauling.

1958 is, on balance, somewhat better cast. Vickers is Siegmund, Windgassen sings both Siegfrieds, and thankfully, Stolze is Mime. Unfortunately, Neidlinger didn't sing Alberich in 1958; Frans Andersson is perfectly adequate, but Neidlinger virtually owned the role, for good reason. The other casting deficiency is Otto Wiener's Gunther (it was the excellent Hermann Uhde in 1956 and 1957), but that's not a huge deal - vocally speaking, it's a pretty minor role.

I have 1956 and 1958, along with Walkure from 1957. If I had to choose one, it would be 1958.


----------



## gvn

wkasimer said:


> 1956 is probably the most coherent conducting-wise, and has the best sound (I have the M&A issue, and I assume that the Orfeo sounds at least as good, and possibly better). The negatives for this cycle are that Windgassen isn't a very good Siegmund (he stepped in at the last minute for an indisposed Vinay), and Paul Kuen's Mime is, IMO, virtually unlistenable - he is a blot on virtually every Siegfried recording on which he sings. I'm also not wild about Suthaus' Loge - its a shame that he didn't sing Siegmund and leave Loge to Windgassen. Hotter is in somewhat better voice here, although not as good as in 1953.
> 
> I rule out 1957 because Bernd Aldenhoff is a pretty dreadful young Siegfried - and the Gotterdammerung from this cycle is almost impossible to find. I also features Kuen's dreadful caterwauling.
> 
> 1958 is, on balance, somewhat better cast. Vickers is Siegmund, Windgassen sings both Siegfrieds, and thankfully, Stolze is Mime. Unfortunately, Neidlinger didn't sing Alberich in 1958; Frans Andersson is perfectly adequate, but Neidlinger virtually owned the role, for good reason. The other casting deficiency is Otto Wiener's Gunther (it was the excellent Hermann Uhde in 1956 and 1957), but that's not a huge deal - vocally speaking, it's a pretty minor role.
> 
> I have 1956 and 1958, along with Walkure from 1957. If I had to choose one, it would be 1958.


I can confirm that the Orfeo transfer of 1956 is better than the Music & Arts (I bought each). I also agree with virtually all Wkasimer's comments.

Note carefully Wkasimer's statement that in 1957 Aldenhoff sings only the YOUNG Siegfried. The LESS young Siegfried (in Götterdämmerung) is Windgassen, just as in 1956 and 1958.

Personally, if I had to choose only one, it would be 1956, (a) because of the excellent recorded sound, and (b) because this is the only Kna set in which you get, throughout, the best available singer in each of the four longest roles: Hotter as Wotan, Varnay as Brünnhilde, Windgassen as Siegfried (I fully agree with Wkasimer that he isn't so suitable for SiegMUND), and Neidlinger as Alberich.

Still, you might eventually want to supplement 1956 with the 1958 Walküre (where Vickers & Rysanek are the twins) and the 1957 Götterdämmerung (where Uhde & Grümmer are, to my mind, just about incomparable as the brother & sister).

But, regardless of all comparative discussions, EACH of the three sets has (in their best CD transfers) pretty stunning sound quality for a 1950s mono live recording, and EACH of the three has a cast of mind-boggling standard. What wouldn't we give, to have even HALF of these singers in any present-day Wagner recording! So, in that sense, one can hardly go wrong, whichever of the three one chooses.


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## wkasimer

gvn said:


> Still, you might eventually want to supplement 1956 with the 1958 Walküre (where Vickers & Rysanek are the twins) and the 1957 Götterdämmerung (where Uhde & Grümmer are, to my mind, just about incomparable as the brother & sister).


The problem is that the 1957 Gotterdammerung is almost impossible to find at anything like a reasonable price.



> But, regardless of all comparative discussions, EACH of the three sets has (in their best CD transfers) pretty stunning sound quality for a 1950s mono live recording, and EACH of the three has a cast of mind-boggling standard. What wouldn't we give, to have even HALF of these singers in any present-day Wagner recording! So, in that sense, one can hardly go wrong, whichever of the three one chooses.


Indeed - it's a shame that the 1956 Meistersinger with Hotter wasn't so fortunate.


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## PMarlowe

I think some of these "Kna" Ring Cycles on M&A and Orfeo are on Spotify (maybe just 1956). I have the Wagner's Vision 50-CD set, which provides a good overview of Bayreuth performances, I think, but the SQ is not optimal. I might be a bit spoiled by the SQ of the Keilberth 1955 Cycle on Testament.

I wonder if a consensus can be reached if one were to mix and match the various performances. Is that even possible for the best sounding recordings (i.e., they all might be on full cycle sets).


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## annaw

PMarlowe said:


> I think some of these "Kna" Ring Cycles on M&A and Orfeo are on Spotify (maybe just 1956). I have the Wagner's Vision 50-CD set, which provides a good overview of Bayreuth performances, I think, but the SQ is not optimal. I might be a bit spoiled by the SQ of the Keilberth 1955 Cycle on Testament.


Yes, I checked and all three cycles are available on Spotify in their entirety.


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## annaw

wkasimer said:


> Indeed - it's a shame that the 1956 Meistersinger with Hotter wasn't so fortunate.


I didn't know there was a second _Die Meistersinger_ with Hotter as well... What's its main problem?


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## Granate

wkasimer said:


> The problem is that the 1957 Gotterdammerung is almost impossible to find at anything like a reasonable price.


As soon as I can, I'm trying to buy the 1952 Götterdämmerung. It doesn't have Grummer, but it has Mödl, and a younger Uhde.

How would you imagine a Götterdämmerung staged in Bayreuth where Martha Módl sings the same evening the Third Norn, Brunnhilde, Gutrune, Waltraute and Wellgunde? Wouldn't it blow your mind? Now that's a cast shortage.

Where did I hear that Hermann Uhde played a more coherent Rheingold Wotan than Hans Hotter? (like the 1952 season).



annaw said:


> I didn't know there was a second _Die Meistersinger_ with Hotter as well... What's its main problem?


I don't have the whole story, but I recall that Hotter was so unsatisfied with his Hans Sachs performance, apart from the scandalous Wieland staging, that he requested the Bavarian Radio to destroy the master tapes of the premiere.

And by Scandalous I mean, that with all the memories of the bombing of Nuremberg, this 1956 Meistersinger staging... had in fact no Nuremberg in Act II.

Wieland Wagner 1956










Wieland Wagner 1957


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## PMarlowe

annaw said:


> Yes, I checked and all three cycles are available on Spotify in their entirety.


Great news! I will check them out. I meant to indicate the Wagner's Vision set is a good overview of the various Bayreuth cycles, not really the Knappertsbusch cycles (which are represented, but not extensively, save for the 1958 Die Walkure).


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## wkasimer

annaw said:


> I didn't know there was a second _Die Meistersinger_ with Hotter as well... What's its main problem?


The sonics are pretty dire in every issue I've heard - vastly inferior to virtually every 1950's Bayreuth broadcast I've heard.


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## annaw

wkasimer said:


> The sonics are pretty dire in every issue I've heard - vastly inferior to virtually every 1950's Bayreuth broadcast I've heard.





Granate said:


> I don't have the whole story, but I recall that Hotter was so unsatisfied with his Hans Sachs performance, apart from the scandalous Wieland staging, that he requested the Bavarian Radio to destroy the master tapes of the premiere.


That's indeed a shame. I wouldn't mind one more _Die Meistersinger_ with Hotter's Sachs. I can imagine that Hotter as a good actor would have liked to have Nürnberg to support the character portrayal.

I'm still listening to the _Dutchman_s and those have made me appreciate Uhde even more than I did before. Very wonderful and powerful voice! I'm very interested to hear his Wotan.


----------



## Barbebleu

wkasimer said:


> 1956 is probably the most coherent conducting-wise, and has the best sound (I have the M&A issue, and I assume that the Orfeo sounds at least as good, and possibly better). The negatives for this cycle are that Windgassen isn't a very good Siegmund (he stepped in at the last minute for an indisposed Vinay), and Paul Kuen's Mime is, IMO, virtually unlistenable - he is a blot on virtually every Siegfried recording on which he sings. I'm also not wild about Suthaus' Loge - its a shame that he didn't sing Siegmund and leave Loge to Windgassen. Hotter is in somewhat better voice here, although not as good as in 1953.
> 
> I rule out 1957 because Bernd Aldenhoff is a pretty dreadful young Siegfried - and the Gotterdammerung from this cycle is almost impossible to find. I also features Kuen's dreadful caterwauling.
> 
> 1958 is, on balance, somewhat better cast. Vickers is Siegmund, Windgassen sings both Siegfrieds, and thankfully, Stolze is Mime. Unfortunately, Neidlinger didn't sing Alberich in 1958; Frans Andersson is perfectly adequate, but Neidlinger virtually owned the role, for good reason. The other casting deficiency is Otto Wiener's Gunther (it was the excellent Hermann Uhde in 1956 and 1957), but that's not a huge deal - vocally speaking, it's a pretty minor role.
> 
> I have 1956 and 1958, along with Walkure from 1957. If I had to choose one, it would be 1958.


It's interesting that you find Paul Kuen unlistenable. Somewhere on this thread I made a similar observation. My objection was not that I found his singing poor but rather he very rarely sang anything that Wagner actually wrote. It was a sort of approximation of the notes on the written page. I remember listening to him and because I know the Ring Cycle pretty well my ears pricked up when Herr Kuen started singing. I remember thinking I don't recognise that phrase or that phrase etc. I had to go back and listen to him along with the score to hear what he was actually singing. It was perfectly in harmony with the orchestra, just not what Wagner had written!! I'm astonished that he was allowed to get away with it by Wieland!


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## gvn

wkasimer said:


> The problem is that the 1957 Gotterdammerung is almost impossible to find at anything like a reasonable price.


But isn't that half the fun of collecting? The unattainable of today becomes the cheap bargain of tomorrow... and when one _does_ attain it, one cherishes it all the more because it was once unattainable.

For most of my adult life, the Wagnerian's ever-inaccessible Holy Grails were the Flagstad-Melchior-Beecham Tristan and the 1953 Keilberth Ring (the former because Flagstad had sunk it in the sea off Stockholm, and the latter because it was The Banned Ring). Now, in my old age, I can wallow in both of them as often as I please... and I relish them all the more because I never seriously imagined that I would ever live to hear either of them.

I can remember a time when sale Music & Arts copies of the _complete_ 1957 Ring were the very cheapest Ring on the market (and cheaper, I'm sure, than any separate Götterdämmerung). That time, or its equivalent, will come again.


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## The Conte

gvn said:


> But isn't that half the fun of collecting? The unattainable of today becomes the cheap bargain of tomorrow... and when one _does_ attain it, one cherishes it all the more because it was once unattainable.
> 
> For most of my adult life, the Wagnerian's ever-inaccessible Holy Grails were the Flagstad-Melchior-Beecham Tristan and the 1953 Keilberth Ring (the former because Flagstad had sunk it in the sea off Stockholm, and the latter because it was The Banned Ring). Now, in my old age, I can wallow in both of them as often as I please... and I relish them all the more because I never seriously imagined that I would ever live to hear either of them.
> 
> I can remember a time when sale Music & Arts copies of the _complete_ 1957 Ring were the very cheapest Ring on the market (and cheaper, I'm sure, than any separate Götterdämmerung). That time, or its equivalent, will come again.


The banned Ring? I haven't heard that before, could you enlighten us?

N.


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## wkasimer

gvn said:


> For most of my adult life, the Wagnerian's ever-inaccessible Holy Grails were the Flagstad-Melchior-Beecham Tristan and the 1953 Keilberth Ring (the former because Flagstad had sunk it in the sea off Stockholm, and the latter because it was The Banned Ring). Now, in my old age, I can wallow in both of them as often as I please... and I relish them all the more because I never seriously imagined that I would ever live to hear either of them.


When I grew up in New Haven, more than 40 years ago, the public library actually owned a copy of the 1953 Keilberth Bayreuth RING, but it was on LP's labelled as the Dresden State Opera conducted by Fritz Schreiber. Once I left New Haven, I figured that I'd never hear it again.


----------



## PMarlowe

wkasimer said:


> 1956 is probably the most coherent conducting-wise, and has the best sound (I have the M&A issue, and I assume that the Orfeo sounds at least as good, and possibly better). The negatives for this cycle are that Windgassen isn't a very good Siegmund (he stepped in at the last minute for an indisposed Vinay), and Paul Kuen's Mime is, IMO, virtually unlistenable - he is a blot on virtually every Siegfried recording on which he sings. I'm also not wild about Suthaus' Loge - its a shame that he didn't sing Siegmund and leave Loge to Windgassen. Hotter is in somewhat better voice here, although not as good as in 1953.
> 
> I rule out 1957 because Bernd Aldenhoff is a pretty dreadful young Siegfried - and the Gotterdammerung from this cycle is almost impossible to find. I also features Kuen's dreadful caterwauling.
> 
> 1958 is, on balance, somewhat better cast. Vickers is Siegmund, Windgassen sings both Siegfrieds, and thankfully, Stolze is Mime. Unfortunately, Neidlinger didn't sing Alberich in 1958; Frans Andersson is perfectly adequate, but Neidlinger virtually owned the role, for good reason. The other casting deficiency is Otto Wiener's Gunther (it was the excellent Hermann Uhde in 1956 and 1957), but that's not a huge deal - vocally speaking, it's a pretty minor role.
> 
> I have 1956 and 1958, along with Walkure from 1957. If I had to choose one, it would be 1958.


So far, the Knappertsbusch 1956 Ring on Orfeo sounds great on Spotify. It sounds very similar to the M&A version, though there might be a somewhat richer bass in the Orfeo. But, of course, I'm limited to Spotify. (Someone posted the Melodram version on YouTube. I don't think that one is worth considering.) Anyone else have a preference for the Kna'56?


----------



## Music Snob

PMarlowe said:


> So far, the Knappertsbusch 1956 Ring on Orfeo sounds great on Spotify. It sounds very similar to the M&A version, though there might be a somewhat richer bass in the Orfeo. But, of course, I'm limited to Spotify. (Someone posted the Melodram version on YouTube. I don't think that one is worth considering.) Anyone else have a preference for the Kna'56?


I'm happy to answer your question the best I can. I have both Music and Arts and the Orfeo versions.

1- The songs are divided in strange ways on the Music and Arts, with less track divisions, IIRC. The Orfeo seemed to have more logical cuts in between songs.

3- The "presence" seemed to be more upfront for Wotan's Abeschied on the M & A with slightly higher volume as opposed to a more even bit less upfront sound on Orfeo.

3,147- The rest of Der Ring seemed pretty much the equal between the two with the edge going to Orfeo for a more consistent and slightly clearer sound.

I love the 1956 Ring. This Cycle enlightened me to the genius of Kna.


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## DarkAngel

The Conte said:


> The banned Ring? I haven't heard that before, could you enlighten us?
> N.


AS soon as you can find a complete *Bayreuth 54 Ring* recording let me know (Bayreuth had no Rings in 1959) till then we have only a piece of the puzzle in 54 Walkure.......










I think Granate is a big fan of this recording, perhaps he knows the fate of remainder of this RING....


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## The Conte

DarkAngel said:


> AS soon as you can find a complete *Bayreuth 54 Ring* recording let me know (Bayreuth had no Rings in 1959) till then we have only a piece of the puzzle in 54 Walkure.......


A classic due to being the only recording featuring all three of the great New Bayreuth Brunhildes.

N.


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## annaw

The Conte said:


> A classic due to being the only recording featuring all three of the great New Bayreuth Brunhildes.
> 
> N.


Nilsson as Ortlinde?!! Oh my goodness, if that's not luxury casting, I don't know what is!

The most intriguing and somewhat disturbing thing about 1954 _Ring_ is that _maybe_ someone somewhere has the rest of it... that would mean there's a 50s Bayreuth _Ring_ we don't yet have!


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## Barbebleu

DarkAngel said:


> AS soon as you can find a complete *Bayreuth 54 Ring* recording let me know (Bayreuth had no Rings in 1959) till then we have only a piece of the puzzle in 54 Walkure.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think Granate is a big fan of this recording, perhaps he knows the fate of remainder of this RING....


I thought that Conte's response to Gvn was referring to the '53 Keilberth that Gvn suggested was banned. I too am curious as to what Gvn meant.

Btw, I think the rest of the '54 Ring will appear the day after a '55 Knappertsbusch Parsifal does. :lol:


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## Barbebleu

gvn said:


> For most of my adult life, the Wagnerian's ever-inaccessible Holy Grails were the Flagstad-Melchior-Beecham Tristan and the 1953 Keilberth Ring (the former because Flagstad had sunk it in the sea off Stockholm, and the latter because it was The Banned Ring).


I'm not aware of either of the tales attached to these statements. Enlighten me please!


----------



## gvn

Barbebleu said:


> I'm not aware of either of the tales attached to these statements. Enlighten me please!


Well, the legends popularly believed 50 years ago were as follows:

1. According to legend, HMV pressed two test copies of the Beecham Tristan. Sent one to Melchior, one to Flagstad. Melchior rejected his copy because the recording balance favored Flagstad too much. (What happened to his copy? Nobody knew.) Flagstad rejected _her_ copy because the recording balance favored _Melchior_ too much. Disliked it so much that she dumped the whole batch of 78s in the sea in Stockholm Harbor. Decades later, after her death, a record collector was so keen to get this recording that he actually _hired a diver to dive in the area and try to find it_. (That last sentence, at least, I believe to be true. That's how keen collectors were in the 1960s to retrieve the lost Flagstad-Melchior Tristan, or even bits of it.)

2. In the mid-1950s, Allegro issued the 1953 Bayreuth Ring on cheap LPs with fictitious cast names. One day, according to legend, Regina Resnik (the Sieglinde on the set) walked into a record shop, heard a bit of it, and recognized it. She sued Allegro, won, bankrupted the company, and suppressed the recording. After that, no company dared to issue the thing (even with the correct names) for over 40 years. Not even the standard bootleg dealers would sell cassette dubs of it.

How much truth is there in all of this? I'm not qualified to say. Probably, as usual, the stories are too good to be true. But the whole of the above was popularly believed 40-50 years ago.


----------



## Barbebleu

gvn said:


> Well, the legends popularly believed 50 years ago were as follows:
> 
> 1. According to legend, HMV pressed two test copies of the Beecham Tristan. Sent one to Melchior, one to Flagstad. Melchior rejected his copy because the recording balance favored Flagstad too much. (What happened to his copy? Nobody knew.) Flagstad rejected _her_ copy because the recording balance favored _Melchior_ too much. Disliked it so much that she dumped the whole batch of 78s in the sea in Stockholm Harbor. Decades later, after her death, a record collector was so keen to get this recording that he actually _hired a diver to dive in the area and try to find it_. (That last sentence, at least, I believe to be true. That's how keen collectors were in the 1960s to retrieve the lost Flagstad-Melchior Tristan, or even bits of it.)
> 
> 2. In the mid-1950s, Allegro issued the 1953 Bayreuth Ring on cheap LPs with fictitious cast names. One day, according to legend, Regina Resnik (the Sieglinde on the set) walked into a record shop, heard a bit of it, and recognized it. She sued Allegro, won, bankrupted the company, and suppressed the recording. After that, no company dared to issue the thing (even with the correct names) for over 40 years. Not even the standard bootleg dealers would sell cassette dubs of it.
> 
> How much truth is there in all of this? I'm not qualified to say. Probably, as usual, the stories are too good to be true. But the whole of the above was popularly believed 40-50 years ago.


I'd never heard these! I do love a good urban legend though and they have enough going for them that they could be true. Wouldn't it be nice if they were.


----------



## Granate

gvn said:


> 2. In the mid-1950s, Allegro issued the 1953 Bayreuth Ring on cheap LPs with fictitious cast names. One day, according to legend, Regina Resnik (the Sieglinde on the set) walked into a record shop, heard a bit of it, and recognized it. She sued Allegro, won, bankrupted the company, and suppressed the recording. After that, no company dared to issue the thing (even with the correct names) for over 40 years. Not even the standard bootleg dealers would sell cassette dubs of it.












That is savage! I'll record it in my memory so I can tell it to my friends!



DarkAngel said:


> I think Granate is a big fan of this recording, perhaps he knows the fate of remainder of this RING....


I was going to say I didn't like it at all, but it turns out I had listened to the 1955 Mono release










To be fair, I'm not a fan at all of early Nilsson's especially considering her odd Elsa that year.


----------



## annaw

Barbebleu said:


> I'd never heard these! I do love a good urban legend though and they have enough going for them that they could be true. *Wouldn't it be nice if they were.*


Soo... who's willing to go diving to find out if maybe Kna 55 _Parsifal_ and the rest of 1954 _Ring_ could be found somewhere in the Baltic Sea as well :lol:? Or let us know if some modern Siegfried sounds suspiciously similar to Windgassen!


----------



## Barbebleu

annaw said:


> Soo... who's willing to go diving to find out if maybe Kna 55 _Parsifal_ and the rest of 1954 _Ring_ could be found somewhere in the Baltic Sea as well :lol:? Or let us know if some modern Siegfried sounds suspiciously similar to Windgassen!


Well I know who it won't be! I learned to swim when I was ten because our school insisted that we learn. I have never use that skill since. They say it's like riding a bike, you never forget. Well I'd rather not find out. You very rarely drown riding a bike!:lol:


----------



## DarkAngel

annaw said:


> Soo... who's willing to go diving to find out if maybe Kna 55 _Parsifal_ and the rest of 1954 _Ring_ could be found somewhere in the Baltic Sea as well :lol:? Or let us know if some modern Siegfried sounds suspiciously similar to Windgassen!


I did check Bayreuth Festival performance archives and there was one complete Ring (instead of usual two) performed in 1954 and was radio broadcast on Bavarian Radio as usual......still we are missing 3 operas and I can find no details of why they are not available for public release


----------



## annaw

DarkAngel said:


> I did check Bayreuth Festival performance archives and there was one complete Ring (instead of usual two) performed in 1954 and was radio broadcast on Bavarian Radio as usual......still we are missing 3 operas and I can find no details of why they are not available for public release


This is indeed interesting: https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/arts/cas/staff/lockley/bayreuth/

Seems that these broadcasts actually exist in the archives and should be out of copyright... Could it be that no one has just bothered to issue it? Seems improbable though considering that all others have been released.


----------



## Barbebleu

Let’s all email Bavarian Radio and ask them if they would release the tapes if someone asks them to, then we can petition Orphee to request the tapes from Bavarian Radio and we are set!!:lol:


----------



## Barbebleu

I have emailed Bavarianradio.com on this matter. I’ll let you know if and when they respond.


----------



## annaw

Barbebleu said:


> I have emailed Bavarianradio.com on this matter. I'll let you know if and when they respond.


Now that's intriguing!


----------



## annaw

Any recommendations for historical _Tannhäuser_ recordings? (non-historical are very welcome as well!) Another Wagner opera that I've listened to unforgivably little.


----------



## Music Snob

I like this one.


----------



## Itullian

annaw said:


> Any recommendations for historical _Tannhäuser_ recordings? (non-historical are very welcome as well!) Another Wagner opera that I've listened to unforgivably little.


----------



## Music Snob

This one is my favorite.


----------



## howlingfantods

annaw said:


> Any recommendations for historical _Tannhäuser_ recordings? (non-historical are very welcome as well!) Another Wagner opera that I've listened to unforgivably little.


Honestly, the whole point of Tannhauser is to sound pretty. I'd go for a modern stereo recording, either the Sinopoli or the Barenboim. I've been leaning more towards the Barenboim lately myself--Seiffert is one of my favorites in the title role.


----------



## annaw

Itullian said:


>


Yes! Yes! Yes! I listened to it yesterday and it was marvellous!


----------



## zxxyxxz

I much prefer the Bayereuth 1955 Tannhäuser, I prefer the sopranos (I can't find the cd case at the moment) and while Windgassen delivers a better Rome Narration in 1961 I always felt he was a bit off that night. (A cold?) I think he is much better overall in 1955. 

But then you know my preference will always be marked by how good Windgassen sounds 

The other benefit is you still get Fischer-Dieskau as Wolfram.

I must also admit to having a soft spot for the Otto Gerdes 1969 studio effort with Windgassen, Fischer-Dieskau and Nilsson as both Venus and Elizabeth.


----------



## annaw

howlingfantods said:


> Honestly, the whole point of Tannhauser is to sound pretty. I'd go for a modern stereo recording, either the Sinopoli or the Barenboim. I've been leaning more towards the Barenboim lately myself--Seiffert is one of my favorites in the title role.


Yup, Tannhäuser has some very beautiful orchestral music! I remember listening to some bits from the Barenboim recording as I like the Dresden version but I should listen to it entirely.

Thank you all for recommendations! I will check these out!


----------



## Barbebleu

The Solti was my imprint version and I still love it. Also Bayreuth 1962 and Venice 1969 are worth a listen.


----------



## wkasimer

howlingfantods said:


> Honestly, the whole point of Tannhauser is to sound pretty. I'd go for a modern stereo recording, either the Sinopoli or the Barenboim.


Yes, but the singing is supposed to be pretty, too, which is why I gravitate toward recordings with Melchior in the title role, poor sonics and all.


----------



## PMarlowe

Thoughts on either or both of these?


----------



## The Conte

Go to page 303 and follow the conversation from there about the old Met Ring recordings.

N.


----------



## DarkAngel

PMarlowe said:


> Thoughts on either or both of these?


If money is no object you get the Sony boxset which has same walkure, seigfried and gotterdammerung as the Naxos boxset plus it has nine total operas and much nicer package.....Sony box must now be oop since only expensive used options available at Amazon

The Ring operas from 1930s will obviously not be the best sound quality but really great singers

The companion Verdi at the MET boxset still available for $63 at Amazon, I bought both of these
when they first came out.....


----------



## PMarlowe

DarkAngel said:


> If money is no object you get *the Sony boxset *which *has same walkure, seigfried and gotterdammerung* as the Naxos boxset plus it has nine total operas and much nicer package.....Sony box must now be oop since only expensive used options available at Amazon
> 
> The Ring operas from 1930s will obviously not be the best sound quality but really great singers


A reviewer on Amazon said the common Ring operas had much better sound, otherwise I'd be on board with that view.


----------



## PMarlowe

The Conte said:


> Go to page 303 and follow the conversation from there about the old Met Ring recordings.
> 
> N.


Thanks. I'll do that.


----------



## wkasimer

DarkAngel said:


> If money is no object you get the Sony boxset which has same walkure, seigfried and gotterdammerung as the Naxos boxset plus it has nine total operas and much nicer package.....Sony box must now be oop since only expensive used options available at Amazon.


Keep an eye on Ebay, where used copies cost considerably less. I think that's how I bought my copy.

To be honest, I'm somewhat disappointed by this set. No Parsifal, and they could have chosen a better Tannhauser (why not one with Melchior?). I also might have chosen an earlier Lohengrin, 1940, with Rethberg. I'm not a big fan of that particular Meistersinger, and would have preferred one of the 1930's Schorr recordings, despite the cuts. And speaking of cuts, that 1936 Gotterdammerung is hacked to shreds and sounds pretty dreadful - surely one of the performances from later would have been more complete and sounded better.


----------



## damianjb1

Granate said:


> As soon as I can, I'm trying to buy the 1952 Götterdämmerung. It doesn't have Grummer, but it has Mödl, and a younger Uhde.
> 
> How would you imagine a Götterdämmerung staged in Bayreuth where Martha Módl sings the same evening the Third Norn, Brunnhilde, Gutrune, Waltraute and Wellgunde? Wouldn't it blow your mind? Now that's a cast shortage.
> 
> Where did I hear that Hermann Uhde played a more coherent Rheingold Wotan than Hans Hotter? (like the 1952 season).
> 
> I don't have the whole story, but I recall that Hotter was so unsatisfied with his Hans Sachs performance, apart from the scandalous Wieland staging, that he requested the Bavarian Radio to destroy the master tapes of the premiere.
> 
> And by Scandalous I mean, that with all the memories of the bombing of Nuremberg, this 1956 Meistersinger staging... had in fact no Nuremberg in Act II.
> 
> Wieland Wagner 1956
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wieland Wagner 1957


He certainly knew how to create exquisite stage scenes. I read once that a person who had seen this production felt like they could have cut a cube of blue sky out of the scene due to the extraordinary lighting.


----------



## Barbebleu

My big regret in life is to never have seen one of Wieland’s Bayreuth productions. It wouldn’t be beyond the capabilities of some producer to recreate those sets. I’m sure the Bayreuth archives will contain enough data to enable that to happen should the will be there.


----------



## Granate

Barbebleu said:


> My big regret in life is to never have seen one of Wieland's Bayreuth productions. It wouldn't be beyond the capabilities of some producer to recreate those sets. I'm sure the Bayreuth archives will contain enough data to enable that to happen should the will be there.


I've been years wondering why don't they do it. Hollywood's been doing remakes for a decade. What do we need to happen in Bayreuth? A Chinese Takeover from the Wagners?

My bet is that until theatre companies cannot afford top dressing professionals, we will keep getting trenchcoats and black Italian suits for 20 more years.

I swear that looking at Spanish soap operas, the film industry here suffers from the same problem. It's like there are only provider companies that lease dressings from early 40s and 50s and all plots happen in that era. Then I see Indian dramas and I hallucinate like, HOW IS IT SO COLOURFUL, SO MODERN OMG.


----------



## annaw

Granate said:


> I've been years wondering why don't they do it. Hollywood's been doing remakes for a decade. What do we need to happen in Bayreuth? A Chinese Takeover from the Wagners?
> 
> My bet is that until theatre companies cannot afford top dressing professionals, we will keep getting trenchcoats and black Italian suits for 20 more years.


Wasn't Wieland Wagner partly forced to use that sort of "empty-stage" staging because of the post-war financial hardship when they opened Bayreuth in 1951? If they found the money to do the stagings at that time period, they should find it during the current period as well. I think it still comes down to the wish of the contemporary stage directors to convey some idea which Wagner most likely never wished to communicate, which feels almost egotistical sometimes...

Yes, the costumes! When was the last time I saw a Walküre helmet with as huge wings as those which Flagstad and Varnay have in the pictures :lol:?!


----------



## amfortas

Barbebleu said:


> My big regret in life is to never have seen one of Wieland's Bayreuth productions. It wouldn't be beyond the capabilities of some producer to recreate those sets. I'm sure the Bayreuth archives will contain enough data to enable that to happen should the will be there.


May I just say, if that's your big regret in life, you've done OK.


----------



## Barbebleu

amfortas said:


> May I just say, if that's your big regret in life, you've done OK.


Yeah, I may have over-egged that particular pudding!:lol:


----------



## Granate

*Met Parsifal with Flagstad and Melchior to be fully released*



Eramire156 said:


> from the Met, New York City, 15 April 1938
> featuring Kirsten Flagstad and Lauritz Melchior also in the cast Friedrich Schorr and Emanuel List.
> 
> https://www.marstonrecords.com/pages/future


Price says $53. How's this for a discovery? Would you pay for this?


----------



## PMarlowe

Received a couple of Testament recordings (used) today. The prices were too good to pass up.


----------



## Barbebleu

Re my post #4788 I have not had a response from Bavarian Radio so I’ll try them again.


----------



## wkasimer

Granate said:


> Price says $53. How's this for a discovery? Would you pay for this?


Yes - in fact I already have, more or less. I'm a Marston subscriber, and receive all of his vocal issues without needing to order them.

I've heard the performance as issued by Myto, and it's virtually unlistenable. I have little doubt that Marston will do much better.


----------



## The Conte

wkasimer said:


> Yes - in fact I already have, more or less. I'm a Marston subscriber, and receive all of his vocal issues without needing to order them.
> 
> I've heard the performance as issued by Myto, and it's virtually unlistenable. I have little doubt that Marston will do much better.


That's a certainty. I have the Guild Immortal Performances issue of act two and the sound is regular 30s broadcast quality. I thought that only act two had been preserved in good sound, is the Marston going to be based on a newly discovered source or is it the same as used for Guild, but Guild only released act two? Does anyone know?

N.


----------



## Granate

I finally got this on the mail. 1 month late!


----------



## adriesba

What are the best recordings ever of Senta's ballad?


----------



## wkasimer

Elisabeth Rethberg:






or Frida Leider:


----------



## howlingfantods

adriesba said:


> What are the best recordings ever of Senta's ballad?


doesn't really count as historical but i'm partial to studer's performance on the sinopoli. studer doesn't get a lot of love around here but i think her senta is superb, and her elisabeth, elsa and eva aren't far behind.


----------



## adriesba

wkasimer said:


> Elisabeth Rethberg:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or Frida Leider:


Wow! Both of these are impressive!

I had not heard of Elisabeth Rethberg before for whatever reason.

:angel: Found this recording of her singing "Dich teure Halle":


----------



## The Conte

howlingfantods said:


> doesn't really count as historical but i'm partial to studer's performance on the sinopoli. studer doesn't get a lot of love around here but i think her senta is superb, and her elisabeth, elsa and eva aren't far behind.


I've long been a fan and I even like her non Wagnerian roles. Her only total duds when it comes to her recordings are her Gilda and Madama Cortese. She would probably be my favourite Senta, however there's something about that Dutchman that doesn't quite add up and it's the fifties live recordings of the opera that I feel gel better overall.

N.


----------



## wkasimer

adriesba said:


> I had not heard of Elisabeth Rethberg before for whatever reason.


You're not alone, unfortunately. A great singer, and a fixture at the Met for a couple of decades. Unfortunately, her career there overlapped with the better-known Rosa Ponselle, and most people know Rethberg only from her live recordings from the late 1930's. Those are good, but she was past her best. If you want to hear Rethberg at her finest, seek out the two Romophone issues, which are OOP, but both not hard to find at reasonable prices (certainly less than I paid for them when they were new) on both eBay and Amazon Marketplace.


----------



## DarkAngel

wkasimer said:


> You're not alone, unfortunately. A great singer, and a fixture at the Met for a couple of decades. Unfortunately, her career there overlapped with the better-known Rosa Ponselle, and most people know Rethberg only from her live recordings from the late 1930's. Those are good, but she was past her best. If you want to hear Rethberg at her finest, seek out the two Romophone issues, which are OOP, but both not hard to find at reasonable prices (certainly less than I paid for them when they were new) on both eBay and Amazon Marketplace.


Great picks WK, we can certainly also make room for 37 Flagstad sung with subtle nuance and vocal color that brings character to life, powerful but never sounds stretched (great technique)






Anyone who wants more info about these great singers should absolutely get the first book of Jackson MET series:


----------



## howlingfantods

The Conte said:


> I've long been a fan and I even like her non Wagnerian roles. Her only total duds when it comes to her recordings are her Gilda and Madama Cortese. She would probably be my favourite Senta, however there's something about that Dutchman that doesn't quite add up and it's the fifties live recordings of the opera that I feel gel better overall.
> 
> N.


ymmv but for me, the major problem with the Sinopoli is Weikl's Dutchman. He's just not big or forceful or magnetic enough for the role even at his best and by then, he was on the downside and his voice was greying.

That Sinopoli really poses an interesting case, where everything else about the recording is basically unsurpassed--outstanding cast, one of Sinopoli's most successful rethinkings, but a big hole in the middle where the lead performance should be. I like it and listen to it a lot but it's an iffy recording to recommend I think.


----------



## The Conte

howlingfantods said:


> ymmv but for me, the major problem with the Sinopoli is Weikl's Dutchman. He's just not big or forceful or magnetic enough for the role even at his best and by then, he was on the downside and his voice was greying.
> 
> That Sinopoli really poses an interesting case, where everything else about the recording is basically unsurpassed--outstanding cast, one of Sinopoli's most successful rethinkings, but a big hole in the middle where the lead performance should be. I like it and listen to it a lot but it's an iffy recording to recommend I think.


Maybe that is what is missing (or perhaps I'm gravitating more towards live recordings in my listening habits), in any case I've never found Weikl's Dutchman particularly persuasive. I much prefer Uhde, Hotter and Fischer-Dieskau.

N.


----------



## annaw

Has anyone heard Leopold Ludwig's 1949 _Tannhäuser_ with Suthaus and young DFD? Any thoughts about that recording?


----------



## Granate

My father texted me and said that the 1958 Siegfried finally arrived home!

Soon I'll be there and bring together the 1957 Rheingold and the 1958 Walküre and Siegfried!

I still don't know if with this situation, I do want to purchase a Bayreuth Götterdämmerung, with the 1952 being the first choice as the 1957 is Out of Print.


----------



## Barbebleu

annaw said:


> Has anyone heard Leopold Ludwig's 1949 _Tannhäuser_ with Suthaus and young DFD? Any thoughts about that recording?


I'll give it a listen. I have it through Amazon Music Unlimited. I'm listening to the Act 1 overture and it sounds pretty good so far.

They may have had to bury half the audience after this performance if the amount of consumptive coughing is anything to go by. I wonder if COVID 19 has been about longer than we think?:lol:

Ludwig must have had an early table booked at a restaurant after the performance given the speed he zooms through the overture! Frenetic would be doing it an injustice. Quite exciting though and I must say I quite like it!


----------



## annaw

Barbebleu said:


> I'll give it a listen. I have it through Amazon Music Unlimited. I'm listening to the Act 1 overture and it sounds pretty good so far.
> 
> They may have had to bury half the audience after this performance if the amount of consumptive coughing is anything to go by. I wonder if COVID 19 has been about longer than we think?:lol:
> 
> Ludwig must have had an early table booked at a restaurant after the performance given the speed he zooms through the overture! Frenetic would be doing it an injustice. Quite exciting though and I must say I quite like it!


Great  !! I think I'll give it a listen tomorrow through some streaming service as well. You have got me interested! My love towards Suthaus' singing might be somewhat irrational but I often find it very exciting and effortless. I have no idea what to expect from the female cast though...


----------



## Granate

Granate said:


> Orfeo is 50% off in Qobuz!
> 
> I bought all of this for only 45€


All the Wagner recordings in Lossless quality costed 30€. That's it, the entire 1956 Bayreuth Ring sold for 10€. And the 1960 Meistersinger completes my Bayreuth collection for the Wagner canon. Even if they are not on CD, a possible great Kna Ring is also closed with all the 1956 performances, plus the 1957 Rheingold and the 1958 Walküre and Siegfried.

Also took the chance, even if I hesitated a lot, to get the 1964 Parsifal for 10€.

You can also get the Krauss 1953 Ring for 10€, or the Karajan 1952 Tristan. However, you need to pay 15€ for recordings like the 1961 Tannhauser or the 1958 Tristan.

Single CDs for 5€. I wanted the Salzburg Beethoven in pristine quality.


----------



## annaw

Granate said:


> All the Wagner recordings in Lossless quality costed 30€. That's it, the entire 1956 Bayreuth Ring sold for 10€. And the 1960 Meistersinger completes my Bayreuth collection for the Wagner canon. Even if they are not on CD, a possible great Kna Ring is also closed with all the 1956 performances, plus the 1957 Rheingold and the 1958 Walküre and Siegfried.
> 
> Also took the chance, even if I hesitated a lot, to get the 1964 Parsifal for 10€.
> 
> You can also get the Krauss 1953 Ring for 10€, or the Karajan 1952 Tristan. However, you need to pay 15€ for recordings like the 1961 Tannhauser or the 1958 Tristan.
> 
> Single CDs for 5€. I wanted the Salzburg Beethoven in pristine quality.


Why oh why isn't Qobuz available in Estonia  ?! So frustrating...


----------



## Granate

> *Götterdämmerung*
> "August 17, 1956"
> *Brünnhilde* Astrid Varnay
> *Siegfried* Wolfgang Windgassen
> *Hagen* Josef Greindl
> *Alberich* Gustav Neidlinger
> *Gunther* Hermann Uhde
> *Gutrune* Gré Brouwenstijn
> *Waltraute* Jean Madeira
> *Woglinde* Lore Wissmann
> *Wellgunde* Paula Lenchner
> *Floßhilde* Maria von Ilosvay
> *1. Norne* Jean Madeira
> *2. Norne* Maria von Ilosvay
> *3. Norne* Astrid Varnay


Oh wow, listening to the Norns scene of GDR and Varnay sings the Third norn! I can imagine her speeding to dress up from norn to Brunnhilde.

Many Qobuz download don't offer any line notes. I had to look up the cast of this performance. It seems there was singer shortage too.

Sorry for you annaw. I missed a Presto Classical Karajan Bruckner sale for the same reason.


----------



## Itullian

annaw said:


> Why oh why isn't Qobuz available in Estonia  ?! So frustrating...


You should be glad. Look at all the money you save.


----------



## adriesba

Ooh! Jean Madeira singing two roles! 

But yeah, it does look like a singer shortage, lol. :lol:


----------



## annaw

Itullian said:


> You should be glad. Look at all the money you save.


That's indeed another way too look at it .


----------



## zxxyxxz

Nice haul Granate!


----------



## Granate

Operadepot sells the Wagner catalogue 50% off and gives away the Bayreuth 1958 Lohengrin as a free download.

I don't know who wanted this recording. This is the chance.


----------



## adriesba

Granate said:


> Operadepot sells the Wagner catalogue 50% off and gives away the Bayreuth 1958 Lohengrin as a free download.
> 
> I don't know who wanted this recording. This is the chance.


I just saw the email. The performance has Konya, Rysanek, and Varnay!


----------



## Itullian

Alert! Alert! 1960s Kempe Ring now in one convenient box set.
Previously only available in separates on Myto.


----------



## adriesba

Itullian said:


> Alert! Alert! 1960s Kempe Ring now in one convenient box set.
> Previously only available in separates on Myto.


Is it only available at jpc.de?


----------



## annaw

adriesba said:


> Is it only available at jpc.de?


Seems to be... or at least I couldn't find it anywhere else.


----------



## Itullian

adriesba said:


> Is it only available at jpc.de?


That's where i saw it.


----------



## Itullian

I have the separates and its a great Ring with excellent sound!


----------



## Granate

Amazing. Such an elusive Ring. I was thinking of getting the Opera Depot edition for years. But this box doesn't have the Premiere Walküre if this features Astrid Varnay.

But still... would rather get the Keilberth 1953 in best sound before this. I already have the Böhm to great satisfaction.

But this is great. Hopf would not do a better Siegfried than this year.


----------



## Itullian

Just ordered mine. 
You gotta grab these things when you find 'em.


----------



## annaw

Itullian said:


> I have the separates and its a great Ring with excellent sound!


I'm very tempted at the moment. How is Hopf's Siegfried?

I just recently listened to Konwitschny's _Tannhäuser_ and, to be honest, I didn't find the sound of his voice particularly attractive. Maybe I'm just not used to his timbre though - the excerpts of his Siegfried I've heard sound definitely more appealing to me.


----------



## Itullian

annaw said:


> I'm very tempted at the moment. How is Hopf's Siegfried?
> 
> I just recently listened to Konwitschny's _Tannhäuser_ and, to be honest, I didn't find the sound of his voice particularly attractive. Maybe I'm just not used to his timbre though - the excerpts of his Siegfried I've heard sound definitely more appealing to me.


He's not the last word in finesse but he sure belts it out 
It's a great Ring.


----------



## Revitalized Classics

adriesba said:


> Is it only available at jpc.de?


It's available for preorder at amazon.co.uk
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wagner-Ring-Nibelungen-live-1960/dp/B089TXGNY3/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=7619990104181&qid=1595457148&sr=8-1

Release 14 August


----------



## Itullian

imho it's Kempe's best Ring recording in the best sound.
And it's Bayreuth, so it's mine.


----------



## Itullian

Revitalized Classics said:


> It's available for preorder at amazon.co.uk
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wagner-Ring-Nibelungen-live-1960/dp/B089TXGNY3/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=7619990104181&qid=1595457148&sr=8-1
> 
> Release 14 August


They won't deliver to the USA, plus jpc has it in stock.


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## annaw

Itullian said:


> imho it's Kempe's best Ring recording in the best sound.
> And it's Bayreuth, so it's mine.


I'm very tempted now!

By the way, I finally finished that Ludwig 1949 _Tannhäuser_ and I was positively surprised. Suthaus, Greindl and DFD were all wonderful. DFD's Wolfram was maybe a bit more commanding (in a good way) than in some later recordings. Suthaus' interpretation is very insightful and he doesn't sound tired or strained even after the longest and toughest passages. I am not overly keen on the female casting though. Ludwig's tempi are FAST, but they certainly give the opera a very nice drive.


----------



## Itullian

^^^^Glad you enjoyed it. 

Btw, Jerome Hines' Wotan must be heard !


----------



## annaw

Itullian said:


> ^^^^Glad you enjoyed it.
> 
> Btw, Jerome Hines' Wotan must be heard !


And Uhde! I really want to hear his Wotan and Wanderer as well...

To buy or not to buy? That is the question.


----------



## flamencosketches

vs.










Granate has put me onto these two Rings which are both currently on sale for 10 dollars on Qobuz. I figure it would be stupid to pass it up, but I can't decide which-both sound really good, with the caveat that the vocals on the Krauss sound a little harsher. The Krauss seems to be by far the more famous; it seems this is not Knappertsbusch's most highly regarded Ring? Anyway, what do I know about all this, but I'm curious to hear some more perspective on these two recordings.

PS. This is my first post in this thread. I've never been much of a Wagner guy, but my interest is periodically piqued and I have long been wanting a full Ring cycle, even if only digital for now. So please be kind and go easy on me.


----------



## Itullian

I think the Knappy has better sound.
The Krauss's voices are very up front so that may take some points away from it.
i like the slower, flowing pace of the Knappy.
i have both sets and enjoy them both.
Listen and pick wat you like.
They're both great Rings


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## adriesba

This seems interesting:






It seems to be on CD on two labels.

View attachment 140132


View attachment 140133


Anyone have either CD? Is the sound any better than the YouTube video? It sounds like a dusty vinyl on YouTube.


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> Just ordered mine.
> You gotta grab these things when you find 'em.


I already have all four Kempe Bayreuth Rings (60 to 63) so I probably don't need this.


----------



## Eramire156

Itullian said:


> Alert! Alert! 1960s Kempe Ring now in one convenient box set.
> Previously only available in separates on Myto.


I just ordered my set, listening to Wagner again after a friend gave me the Wagner Vision box set, and Kempe is a favorite conductor.


----------



## Granate

Granate said:


> 23-24 JULY (PST)
> 
> *Richard Wagner*
> DIE MEISTERSINGER
> VON NÜRNBERG
> 
> on CD
> on DVD and Blu-Ray​


I didn't want to divert the conversation because Flamencosketches was asking which Ring cycle to buy. But now he got the Krauss and you started discussing an exciting new edition for the Kempe 1960 cycle.

You have a few hours left to vote in this poll for your favourite Meistersinger. You can allocate 6 points in integers for CDs and other 6p for DVDs.


----------



## Granate

Barbebleu said:


> I already have all four Kempe Bayreuth Rings (60 to 63) so I probably don't need this.


This cycle is unnecessary in CD form for me, since I already own the Böhm cycle in Stereo with Nilsson in Full shape, with only one singer for Wotan and still a great Siegfried.


----------



## starthrower

I'm listening to Furtwangler's Tristan on EMI. This is mighty fine!


----------



## vincula

I have posted this elsewhere, but I can't help doing it again. I am just so happy with my purchase -unlike my neighbours, I suppose:lol:









Regards,

Vincula


----------



## Granate

I had one of my most enjoyable Meistersinger listenings, if not the most pleasant ever, yesterday afternoon. I played with headphones the Orfeo Master Tapes of the Kna Meistersinger from Bayreuth 1960 and felt completely immersed in the comedy and plot.

It's probably the "heaviest" Meistersinger I have listened to. It can sound almost just too serious. Principal singers are not on their freshest voice (Windgassen, Grümmer as the lovers) or are either really heavy voiced (Greindl, Stolze), next to a superhero Pogner like Theo Adam (Hotter I miss U) and a caricaturesque, if not almost vulgar, ordinary Beckmesser (Karl Schmitt-Walter). It felt musically altogether. Some of the David-Walther lines I usually cringe to, were really pleasant here ("Oh Magdalena"). It was interesting to listen to Greindl's clean upper-register, sounding like kind of your ideal boxing coach all ripped and schredded. It all sounded serious enough to be an all-adult story, including Grümmer having a little trouble to keep the gloss of her Eva role that she could never pass for a teenager but a young woman next to a buffy nobleman played by Windgassen, just having random thoughts as this could be the *Gym Meistersinger* conducted by Hans Knappertsbusch. LOL

The Sound Quality is beyond great. The Rip that Qobuz sells has a serious Glitch in CD1 Track 15. Gladly it's the only one in 4 hours and 40 minutes that I listened in two halves. This should become my reference recording but I don't rule out buying Cluytens 1958.


----------



## zxxyxxz

Granate said:


> I had one of my most enjoyable Meistersinger listenings, if not the most pleasant ever, yesterday afternoon. I played with headphones the Orfeo Master Tapes of the Kna Meistersinger from Bayreuth 1960 and felt completely immersed in the comedy and plot.
> 
> It's probably the "heaviest" Meistersinger I have listened to. It can sound almost just too serious. Principal singers are not on their freshest voice (Windgassen, Grümmer as the lovers) or are either really heavy voiced (Greindl, Stolze), next to a superhero Pogner like Theo Adam (Hotter I miss U) and a caricaturesque, if not almost vulgar, ordinary Beckmesser (Karl Schmitt-Walter). It felt musically altogether. Some of the David-Walther lines I usually cringe to, were really pleasant here ("Oh Magdalena"). It was interesting to listen to Greindl's clean upper-register, sounding like kind of your ideal boxing coach all ripped and schredded. It all sounded serious enough to be an all-adult story, including Grümmer having a little trouble to keep the gloss of her Eva role that she could never pass for a teenager but a young woman next to a buffy nobleman played by Windgassen, just having random thoughts as this could be the *Gym Meistersinger* conducted by Hans Knappertsbusch. LOL
> 
> The Sound Quality is beyond great. The Rip that Qobuz sells has a serious Glitch in CD1 Track 15. Gladly it's the only one in 4 hours and 40 minutes that I listened in two halves. This should become my reference recording but I don't rule out buying Cluytens 1958.


Glad you are having fun with your purchases. I have this one (Windgassen is starring so of course I do) however its not a favourite of mine. I find it dull and Grümmer awful, but then dislike Knappertbusch's conducting I find it just comes across as dull.

Despite poor sound quality in places my favourite remains Bayreuth 1956 as it just sounds more lively and Hotter is wonderful as Sachs.


----------



## Granate

Finished my listening to a 4h30m Götterdämmerung. It was the only recording of the 1956 that I wanted to listen, because I didn't have a recording by Kna yet. The conducting is particularly good in this performance. Still too relaxed, not as dramatic as other years. My impression of the SQ is better but neither Wingassen or Varnay sound really heroic. I don't really enjoy Gré Brouwenstijn as Gutrune or Madeira as Waltraute. But pretty much all the rest show a fantastic level. Varnay indeed had a more comprehensible characterization in Act II.

Yep, the Immolation scene in 1957 is way more energetic in both the pit and the Brunnhilde. The recording technique is also entirely different. It's vocally stronger than what I can hear in the same verses of the 1952 season (Keilberth sets a faster pace and microphones are further from the singers).


----------



## vincula

I've just bought this one. Too good an offer to let it pass. Looking forward to opening the mailbox, even though parcels usually take ages to arrive these days...









Regards,

Vincula


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## wkasimer

vincula said:


> I've just bought this one. Too good an offer to let it pass. Looking forward to opening the mailbox, even though parcels usually take ages to arrive these days...
> 
> View attachment 140547


I listened to this on Spotify the other day, and found it largely disappointing. Some of the singing is great - Grümmer - and both tenors are good, but there's really nothing I'd want to hear again (or at least nothing that I can't hear elsewhere). Wiener isn't quite as bad as I'd feared, but he's still inferior to virtually every other Sachs on record, and while I yield to no one in my admiration of Hotter, he is utterly miscast as Pogner here - it's as though Wotan wandered into the wrong opera.


----------



## vincula

I listened to the Karajan recording and couldn't pass the first disc. Let's see this one fares chez vincula. If it's not my cuppajava, bad luck then. I find the work itself difficult to dig into. Can't exactly explain why...

Regards,

Vincula


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## Barbebleu

vincula said:


> I listened to the Karajan recording and couldn't pass the first disc. Let's see this one fares chez vincula. If it's not my cuppajava, bad luck then. I find the work itself difficult to dig into. Can't exactly explain why...
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Vincula


Which Karajan Vincula, the Bayreuth or the Dresden?


----------



## annaw

vincula said:


> I listened to the Karajan recording and couldn't pass the first disc. Let's see this one fares chez vincula. If it's not my cuppajava, bad luck then. I find the work itself difficult to dig into. Can't exactly explain why...
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Vincula


What helped me immensely to appreciate _Die Meistersinger_ was seeing an actual production (it was the more recent Met one). Even if the singing wasn't all that great, it was very well acted. A lot of _Die Meistersinger_'s humour comes from the wordplay (misunderstanding about David's name in Act I for example) and the absurdity of the situations (the hammering scene) which leads to amusing reactions of different characters (Walther suggesting attacking Sachs). These things tend to come through much better when you see what's happening on the stage.


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## Itullian

Meister is like a fine wine. It gets better with age.


----------



## vincula

Barbebleu said:


> Which Karajan Vincula, the Bayreuth or the Dresden?


The Bayreuth one. Loaned it from the library. Haven't heard the Dresden one.

I'll try to watch on TV to get a better grasp of the work.

Regards,

Vincula


----------



## howlingfantods

vincula said:


> I listened to the Karajan recording and couldn't pass the first disc. Let's see this one fares chez vincula. If it's not my cuppajava, bad luck then. I find the work itself difficult to dig into. Can't exactly explain why...
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Vincula


the first disc is always the toughest--i love every note of the score but david's music lesson and the introduction to the meisters can feel very long. if it's not grabbing you, i think it's a good idea to just listen to the overture and the first (short) scene, skip the second scene and most of the third and and restart from "fanget an".

also, i admire everyone's dedication to historical recordings, but when first approaching this piece, there's really not much reason for restricting oneself to only historical recordings. the best recordings and best overall casts are kubeliks and solti 2 and arguably sawallisch, and maybe even jochum if DFD doesn't sound as terrible to you as he does to me.

volunteering for dodgy sound quality that prevent you from hearing the stunningly beautiful orchestral music that wagner wrote for this opera in order to listen to the frankly atrocious performances on historical recordings by the likes of otto wiener or hans hopf strikes me as perverse.


----------



## Itullian

^^^^^ i agree totally.
My favorite Meisters are all in excellent stereo sound/
i never listen to mono Meisters anymore, even tough i have them.


----------



## Itullian

i always felt that Karajan's EMI stereo Meister could have been much greater if Adam and Ridderbusch would have switched roles. But it's still a very good recording.


----------



## wkasimer

howlingfantods said:


> the first disc is always the toughest--i love every note of the score but david's music lesson and the introduction to the meisters can feel very long.


It *is* long, but it's one of my favorite parts of the opera, if it's sung decently by someone with both voice and character.



> also, i admire everyone's dedication to historical recordings, but when first approaching this piece, there's really not much reason for restricting oneself to only historical recordings.


True, but anyone interested in this opera really needs to hear Friedrich Schorr's Sachs, in recordings from his prime. I don't think that anyone else - not even Hotter, Schoeffler, or Nissen - performs the role so well.


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## wkasimer

Itullian said:


> i always felt that Karajan's EMI stereo Meister could have been much greater if Adam and Ridderbusch would have switched roles. But it's still a very good recording.


Have you heard the live Vienna recording conducted by Dohnanyi? Ridderbusch sings Sachs, along with Janowitz, King, and Moll.


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## Itullian

wkasimer said:


> Have you heard the live Vienna recording conducted by Dohnanyi? Ridderbusch sings Sachs, along with Janowitz, King, and Moll.


I have seen it but have no idea how the sound is.


----------



## annaw

wkasimer said:


> It *is* long, but it's one of my favorite parts of the opera, if it's sung decently by someone with both voice and character.


I really love that part as well! Wagner also seemed to give a lot of thought to the melodies he used there.



> True, but anyone interested in this opera really needs to hear *Friedrich Schorr's Sachs*, in recordings from his prime. I don't think that anyone else - not even Hotter, Schoeffler, or Nissen - performs the role so well.


Is that the 1928 recording with Leo Blech conducting?


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## adriesba

I only have the Kubelik _Meistersinger_. Am I all set then?

Oh, I also have the Jochum recording, but I've heard it's awful.


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## wkasimer

Itullian said:


> I have seen it but have no idea how the sound is.


The sound is excellent. Not as good as a "studio" recording, but it's perfectly good stereo.


----------



## wkasimer

adriesba said:


> Oh, I also have the Jochum recording, but I've heard it's awful.


I think that it's awful, but others disagree.


----------



## wkasimer

re Schorr -



annaw said:


> Is that the 1928 recording with Leo Blech conducting?


Among other recordings. Unfortunately, the two available Met broadcasts - 1936 and 1939 - find him rather past his best.


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## Itullian

wkasimer said:


> The sound is excellent. Not as good as a "studio" recording, but it's perfectly good stereo.


It's stereo?!..........
Are you sure?
Is it cut?


----------



## howlingfantods

Itullian said:


> ^^^^^ i agree totally.
> My favorite Meisters are all in excellent stereo sound/
> i never listen to mono Meisters anymore, even tough i have them.


oh i still love my historic meisters. i just don't think it's the place to start.



adriesba said:


> I only have the Kubelik _Meistersinger_. Am I all set then?
> 
> Oh, I also have the Jochum recording, but I've heard it's awful.


well, i personally can't listen to the whole thing because I find fischer-dieskau unlistenably awful, but many disagree! jochum's conducting is really good, at least for the parts i can listen to without wanting to throw things.

"all set" is a loaded term. i mean, i buy new versions all the time, although i have no expectation that i'll enjoy a new one more than one of the top few choices.

but yeah, if you're just getting familiar with the piece, i think the kubelik will keep you going for a good long time, and i think if you have the kubelik, the next one to get is the solti 2. they have different strengths and weaknesses--i like the conducting, the sachs, and the eva better on the kubelik, the david, the walther, and the pogner better on the solti 2, so which you like better may depend a lot on which of these end up being more relevant to you.


----------



## Barbebleu

adriesba said:


> I only have the Kubelik _Meistersinger_. Am I all set then?
> 
> Oh, I also have the Jochum recording, but I've heard it's awful.


Why would you take anyone else's word on the merit of any recording particularly if you actually have the recording. I can see the point if you were thinking of acquiring it but not when you already possess it.

As far as Meistersinger is concerned no single recording imo gets it completely right so as far as Kubelik is concerned, as good as it is and it's a favourite of mine, I wouldn't say you were "all set".


----------



## Itullian

^^^^And the sound on Solti 2 is spectacular!!!


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## Itullian

adriesba said:


> I only have the Kubelik _Meistersinger_. Am I all set then?
> 
> Oh, I also have the Jochum recording, but I've heard it's awful.


Listen to the Jochum. i happen to like it a lot.
i think Domingo's Prize Song is gorgeous, even with his accent.
And i am a DFD fan. So while he doesn't make the best Sach's , to me,
he brings a lot of insights to the role.
The sound and conducting are very good too.


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## Itullian

^^^^^^i think if you add Solti 2 you're all set


----------



## adriesba

Barbebleu said:


> Why would you take anyone else's word on the merit of any recording particularly if you actually have the recording. I can see the point if you were thinking of acquiring it but not when you already possess it.
> 
> As far as Meistersinger is concerned no single recording imo gets it completely right so as far as Kubelik is concerned, as good as it is and it's a favourite of mine, I wouldn't say you were "all set".


Yes, "all set" is an exaggeration. I suppose what I mean is do I have the essential. Of course, I'll try other recordings in the future.

As for the Jochum recording, I'm not necessarily taking people's word on it, but the complaint of Fischer-Dieskau's singing is rather consistent from what I've seen, and Domingo in a Wagner performance is a turnoff for me. Considering that and the fact that I have the Kubelik, I'm not eager to listen to the Jochum recording. I didn't intentionally seek it out but got it in the DG box set, so it just kind of sits there.


----------



## adriesba

Itullian said:


> ^^^^^^i think if you add Solti 2 you're all set


Yes, I've been looking into Solti 2. When I get another, that will likely be the one.


----------



## wkasimer

Itullian said:


> It's stereo?!..........
> Are you sure?
> Is it cut?


IIRC, it's stereo and uncut. I'll try to listen over the weekend and confirm.


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> ^^^^^^i think if you add Solti 2 you're all set


And the Kempe!:tiphat:


----------



## wkasimer

DarkAngel said:


> FYI - anytime you see historical wagner opera by *ZYX label* with artwork similar to above album just buy it, they are insanely cheap and always highly rated performances


Usually in terrible sound, unless, of course, they've illegally and unethically used the transfer from a another, probably more legitimate source.


----------



## Music Snob

vincula said:


> I listened to the Karajan recording and couldn't pass the first disc. Let's see this one fares chez vincula. If it's not my cuppajava, bad luck then. I find the work itself difficult to dig into. Can't exactly explain why...
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Vincula


Yesterday I listened to the Karajan 51 Prelude to Act 3 over and over while on break. That's quite a powerful interpretation from Mr. Karajan. About 30 seconds longer than Kna's the following year.


----------



## Granate

I saw previous discussion that praised the MOT remaster for naxos over the xyz wen we talked about the Decca Lohengrin with Keilberth.


----------



## vincula

Music Snob said:


> Yesterday I listened to the Karajan 51 Prelude to Act 3 over and over while on break. That's quite a powerful interpretation from Mr. Karajan. About 30 seconds longer than Kna's the following year.


Most likely my fault and not Karajan's. I'll give the work a bit of love when time's due. I must take a break from it now. _Ich will zurückkommen!_ 

Regards,

Vincula


----------



## wkasimer

Granate said:


> I saw previous discussion that praised the MOT remaster for naxos over the xyz wen we talked about the Decca Lohengrin with Keilberth.


Both the Naxos and the Teldec release are cheaper than the Zyx issue, too.


----------



## Barbebleu

adriesba said:


> Yes, "all set" is an exaggeration. I suppose what I mean is do I have the essential. Of course, I'll try other recordings in the future.
> 
> As for the Jochum recording, I'm not necessarily taking people's word on it, but the complaint of Fischer-Dieskau's singing is rather consistent from what I've seen, and Domingo in a Wagner performance is a turnoff for me. Considering that and the fact that I have the Kubelik, I'm not eager to listen to the Jochum recording. I didn't intentionally seek it out but got it in the DG box set, so it just kind of sits there.


Criticism of D. F-D usually comes from those who just don't care for his voice. I'm in the other camp so I like his interpretation just fine. It's not _echt _ Sachs but I've heard worse. Domingo again polarises those who don't like an Italianate voice in this most German of operas. Wagner was always encouraging his singers to sing in a smooth way so who knows, he might have rather enjoyed Domingo as Walther! I would let my own ears be the judge and give it a listen. Who knows, you might even like it!


----------



## annaw

Barbebleu said:


> Criticism of D. F-D usually comes from those who just don't care for his voice. I'm in the other camp so I like his interpretation just fine. It's not _echt _ Sachs but I've heard worse. Domingo again polarises those who don't like an Italianate voice in this most German of operas. Wagner was always encouraging his singers to sing in a smooth way so who knows, he might have rather enjoyed Domingo as Walther! I would let my own ears be the judge and give it a listen. Who knows, you might even like it!


Yup, while DFD kept taking on heavy bass-baritone roles which were probably unsuited for his lyric voice, he usually was a very intelligent interpreter and certainly very musical. I haven't heard his Sachs but he is very great in roles which fit his voice, like Wolfram.


----------



## Music Snob

vincula said:


> Most likely my fault and not Karajan's. I'll give the work a bit of love when time's due. I must take a break from it now. _Ich will zurückkommen!_
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Vincula


I prefer Kna's 52 as my go to Meistersinger, especially from the Quintet to the end of the opera (IMO), although I'm no expert on this particular opera. Karajan in 51 has incredible Preludes to Acts 1 and 3. Yesterday it really hit me as I was having a rough day. I almost always prefer the live Bayreuth sound for my Wagner listening experience, especially the mono 1950's recordings.

From what I read in 1951 Karajan re-arranged the layout of the orchestra in the pit and ended up screwing up the instrumental balance on his recording of Meistersinger. I don't really care for Schwarzkopf's voice most of the time.


----------



## wkasimer

Barbebleu said:


> Criticism of D. F-D usually comes from those who just don't care for his voice. I'm in the other camp so I like his interpretation just fine.


I like his voice just fine - it's just not suited to Sachs. He's not bad in the two monologues, where his interpretive skills are most apparent, but much of the role is conversational, and that's where he resorts to a lot of huffing and puffing to make up for the fact that his voice really doesn't fill out the music.


----------



## howlingfantods

Barbebleu said:


> Criticism of D. F-D usually comes from those who just don't care for his voice.


i think DFD's voice is uncommonly beautiful. i just don't like how he uses it a lot of the time. but i'm a fan of some of his wolframs, some of his amfortases, and his gunther. some of his strauss performances are very good too, and he was surprisingly effective as telramund and kurwenal. and much of his bach and lieder is terrific.

but his sachs, hollander, don giovanni, wotan and rodrigo are all terrible in ways that ruin those recordings. you can tell on some level that he knows that he's not right for those parts since his irritating mannerisms are dialed up to 11 to try to compensate, but it makes those performances even more intolerable.


----------



## adriesba

Barbebleu said:


> *Criticism of D. F-D usually comes from those who just don't care for his voice.* I'm in the other camp so I like his interpretation just fine. It's not _echt _ Sachs but I've heard worse. Domingo again polarises those who don't like an Italianate voice in this most German of operas. Wagner was always encouraging his singers to sing in a smooth way so who knows, he might have rather enjoyed Domingo as Walther! I would let my own ears be the judge and give it a listen. Who knows, you might even like it!


I'm starting to notice that about DFD. Domingo is the main turnoff for me though.

But, yes, I'd have to try it to know for sure what to think. I'll listen to it eventually.


----------



## Granate

I really dislike the Jochum recording, especially for Domingo's excruciating _Deutñol_ singing Walther. Good thing he would sound way more _Germanic_ in every other Wagner recording, especially my introduction to Lohengrin.



howlingfantods said:


> volunteering for dodgy sound quality that prevent you from hearing the stunningly beautiful orchestral music that wagner wrote for this opera in order to listen to the frankly atrocious performances on historical recordings by the likes of otto wiener or hans hopf strikes me as perverse.


I'm not one that really loves _Die Meistersinger_ enough to listen once every month, but I usually like my Wagner collection to be coherent: very similar singers, similar sound quality, same orchestra. The Bayreuth broadcasts fulfil this expectation better than Solti, Karajan or Barenboim. I would happily count with the Decca Bayreuth stereo recordings, especially the _Holländer,_ _Ring_ and _Parsifal._ So far I own the _Tristan,_ _Parsifal_ and _Ring_ from that Stereo collection, but usually Historical recordings fill my heart more because of the meaningful singing.

That's why I may keep the Knappertsbusch _Meistersinger_ from 1960 longer in my collection, because it fits with the rest of my Mono Wagner operas. Even if I own the Myto CDs of the premiere _Tannhäuser_ from the Bayreuth 1961 season, I may buy the third performance released by Orfeo with that sale price. I just need to find the last Knappertsbusch Götterdämmerung from 1957 to complete my dream _Ring_ (even if Böhm 1967 is my favourite of all time). After finding it, I would need to wait for Warner to release new editions of the Furtwängler Wagner recordings, I mean, a new prettier cover of the 1952 _Tristan_ plus the bargain release of the RAI _Ring_ with the Japanese Remaster.

It isn't that complicated, is it?


----------



## wkasimer

Granate said:


> I really dislike the Jochum recording, especially for Domingo's excruciating _Deutñol_ singing Walther.


I'm glad that it's not just me. I find him almost as unlistenable as DFD on that recording, for very different reasons. Every vowel sounds wrong, and too many of the consonants are missing.



> Good thing he would sound way more _Germanic_ in every other Wagner recording, especially my introduction to Lohengrin.


It's true - his German is better for Erik, Tannhauser, Lohengrin, Tristan, and Parsifal, but even there, it's pretty apparent that he really isn't singing text that he understands. There's an all-purpose, generic quality to all of it.



> I would need to wait for Warner to release new editions of the Furtwängler Wagner recordings, I mean, a new prettier cover of the 1952 _Tristan_ plus the bargain release of the RAI _Ring_ with the Japanese Remaster.


It's astonishing that EMI/Warner hasn't done anything to improve that RAI RING sonically - the remastering currently in circulation is 30 years old, and sounds only marginally better than the Seraphim LP's that I bought in 1972.


----------



## vincula

Granate said:


> _(...) _, I would need to wait for Warner to release new editions of the Furtwängler Wagner recordings, I mean, a new prettier cover of the 1952 _Tristan_ plus the bargain release of the RAI _Ring_ with the Japanese Remaster.


Count me in, Granate !

I've been looking at Pristine Classical, but it's way more than I'm willing to pay for adding a Furtwängler's _Ring_ to my collection.

Regards,

Vincula


----------



## wkasimer

vincula said:


> I've been looking at Pristine Classical, but it's way more than I'm willing to pay for adding a Furtwängler's _Ring_ to my collection.


Same here. I did listen to a sample at one point, and it sounded almost good enough to tempt me.


----------



## gvn

Note, too, that Furtwangler Sound has now issued the La Scala Ring:

http://furtwanglersound.com/recordings/wagner/

I wonder if the RAI will follow.

Reviews to date suggest that the Furtwangler Sound transfers are generally better than the Pristine Classical ones. I can't comment on that myself. I'm a bit dubious of these companies that issue material only as downloads and/or CD-Rs. Under my climatic conditions, I find that a properly manufactured pressed CD will usually play perfectly after 35+ years, whereas even an unlabelled Taiyo Yuden CD-R may tend to deteriorate (usually from the 70-minute mark on) after 5-10 years, and a download will be lost when the drive on which it's loaded dies (1-5 years).


----------



## Music Snob

I’ve ordered CD’s from Pristine and I’m pretty sure they are just CD-R’s with a label stuck to them. I keep them in my music library after ripping the music to my Cowon MP3 player. I think Pristine does a great job on most purchases I’ve made.

As for the Furtwangler Ring, I bought it more for Flagstad than anything else. Kna owns the Ring IMO. 

My dream is Kna conducting the Ring with Flagstad as Brünnhilde... one can dream!


----------



## howlingfantods

gvn said:


> a download will be lost when the drive on which it's loaded dies (1-5 years).


i can't imagine anyone who has a substantial digital library who would be crazy enough not to back up their music libraries on multiple drives.

i'm pretty lazy about backing mine up but i refresh my backup to an external drive every few months at least. i also travel with my backup so a house fire or a burglary while i'm gone won't wipe me out. i still have cd rips from when i digitized my entire collection around 15 years ago several computers and many hard drives later in my library.

i personally consider the furtwangler scala ring from pristine one of the best purchases i've made in the past few years. i don't always feel that way about my pristine purchases--i kind of went nuts with buying horenstein and furtwangler symphonic recordings i don't really listen to much, and i never listen to the krauss ring anymore--but the scala ring along with the desormiere pelleas and the warren/bjorling rigoletto are in my very active rotation.


----------



## adriesba

Music Snob said:


> I've ordered CD's from Pristine and I'm pretty sure they are just CD-R's with a label stuck to them.


In that case, are they worth buying? Do we know what bitrate they have on them? I've not purchased anything from Pristine yet, but I'd love to get the Leinsdorf _Tannhäuser_. I'm wondering if I should just stick with either the 24-bit or 16-bit FLAC. Maybe the 24-bit is overkill considering the age of these recordings. Any thoughts on this?


----------



## Music Snob

I think they are 16 bit. The purchases come with free MP3 at 320 kbps downloads. When the CD’s arrive I rip them in FLAC and then listen through my Cown Plenue.

I’ve put some thought into this but others may have greater knowledge and may disagree... here goes... I like CD’s, I like having them for my library. I do not have the time and wherewithal to download the music and print the labels right now. From what I learned, CD’s aren’t designed for 24 bit, nor is it necessary for “Historical” recordings. True 24 bit would have to be recorded as such in the very beginning of the recording process which obviously isn’t possible for any historical recordings we would be listening to. 

I used to deceive myself into thinking I was some kind of audiophile- I am not. I do know that everywhere I go there is background noise. I do not listen in a vacuum. For example, I may be on the road, at home I may be near the fridge or a/c in the background, etc. So what was the point in thinking I had perfect sound quality? As I became enamored with the mono sound of historical recordings I became less bothered with surface noise and the like. I listen now for quality of conducting and singing. For all the minutiae of orchestration I may put on a modern recording but most times the modern recordings don’t have the same quality conducting or singing as the historical versions, IMO.

As for FLAC vs MP3, I learned that FLAC enables you to keep making copies without losing data over time while MP3 copies will degenerate with each copy. So I use FLAC but don’t deceive myself anymore into thinking I can tell the difference (except for no breaks in between numbers with FLAC).

The Tannhäuser is worth it! In whatever format you buy it! Trust me! I don’t always think Pristine is worth it, but for Tannhäuser I rarely turn to no other!

As an aside, I bought the Bychov Lohengrin which was supposed to have incredible sound quality, but to my ears it does not. The quiets are too quiet and the loudspeaker too loud. Anyone back me up on this?


----------



## The Conte

wkasimer said:


> Same here. I did listen to a sample at one point, and it sounded almost good enough to tempt me.


I listened to a sample of the RAI Ring on Pristine and compared it with the latest EMI release, but they sounded the same to my ear.

N.


----------



## flamencosketches

Not to derail the current conversation, but I just wanted to note in this thread that I'm finding the Krauss/Bayreuth 1953 Ring to be absolutely outstanding, and this is coming from a guy with next to zero prior experience with the Ring. The singing, the conducting! As for the music itself, I am really blown away. This is just as great as I always expected it would be. I've never had so much patience for opera before.  I've two down (Rheingold & Walküre), two to go. I will likely space it out, but I'll try and finish the final two Ring operas before month-end. While I do want a stereo Ring at some point, count me a member of "team mono Wagner" :lol: ... as long as the sound quality is as good as it is here.


----------



## starthrower

I ordered the 1952 Furtwangler Tristan so I will be blasting some mono Wagner soon!


----------



## howlingfantods

Music Snob said:


> As for FLAC vs MP3, I learned that FLAC enables you to keep making copies without losing data over time while MP3 copies will degenerate with each copy.


this is not accurate. one digital copy is identical to another digital copy, it's literally numerical code that is the same between two things (i.e. "a copy").

what you probably are thinking of is that it's not recommended to convert from one lossy format to another, or to re-compress from an already compressed source because the result will be worse than an equal bitrate compression or conversion from a non-lossy format. So a 256 kbps mp3 compressed from a FLAC may sound better than a 256 kbps mp3 compressed from a 320 kbps mp3 (although it may not--a 320 kbps mp3 is a very high quality source. but it's not recommended). But you can create a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy ad infinitum and the quality of the 10,000th copy will be identical to the quality of the first.

i personally prefer 320 kbps mp3s. they're portable, can be played by any player, about half the size of flacs, and from a lot of comparison testing trying very hard to hear it, i can't tell the difference between 320 kbps and a lossless source. i can definitely hear the difference with 160, i can hear it some of the time (enough to be distracting and annoying) with 192, and can virtually never tell the difference with 256. So, 320 is plenty for me. When i do buy a higher quality source like a cd or flac, i convert it to 320 and give away or throw away the cd and throw away the flac files.


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## Music Snob

Thank you- I stand corrected. I have tried my best to understand all these formats and it is not always easy. I thank you for the clarification.

My manager at work was telling me a few years ago that Neil Young was trying to develop a 24bit technology CD and player for better sound quality. In my mind I was thinking, “ Who needs to hear Neil Young in 24 bit?” I guess to each there own!


----------



## Music Snob

starthrower said:


> I ordered the 1952 Furtwangler Tristan so I will be blasting some mono Wagner soon!


Awesome! You won't regret it!


----------



## Itullian

starthrower said:


> I ordered the 1952 Furtwangler Tristan so I will be blasting some mono Wagner soon!


It's very good mono.


----------



## starthrower

Itullian said:


> It's very good mono.


I listened to about an hour and a half on YouTube and it sounded good. The orchestra and vocalists sounded so good that I went looking for a CD copy.


----------



## annaw

starthrower said:


> I listened to about an hour and a half on YouTube and it sounded good. The orchestra and vocalists sounded so good that I went looking for a CD copy.


It's a very great recording! The combination of Furtwängler's conducting, Flagstad's Isolde, and Suthaus' Tristan is overpowering.


----------



## adriesba

howlingfantods said:


> When i do buy a higher quality source like a cd or flac, i convert it to 320 and give away or throw away the cd and throw away the flac files.


Don't throw away your CDs. 
Give them to us.


----------



## Music Snob

All this talk of the 52 Tristan and I couldn't help to put it on and blast it!

For those who wish to hear Flagstad sing Isoldes curse from 1948 and hit the high notes in the fullness of her unique timbre there is this gem:


----------



## Azol

howlingfantods said:


> When i do buy a higher quality source like a cd or flac, i convert it to 320 and give away or throw away the cd and throw away the flac files.



I guess it works for you but... but...
Not meant as trolling but do you happen to scan your books onto the harddisk then throw them away as well? Scans do contain the same texts and take no space on your shelf.
Storage space is NOT a limitation nowadays, flac files are identical copies of your CDs while 320-mp3s are not. Moreover, there are newer, better formats if you insist on losing some quality to gain storage space - check out m4a format, for example.
Sorry for extended offtopic but I guess information is the key here.


----------



## adriesba

What release has the best mastering of the Furtwängler _Tristan und Isolde_? I'm seeing several releases - Naxos, Pristine, Membran, Diverdi, and three EMI.


----------



## Itullian

adriesba said:


> What release has the best mastering of the Furtwängler _Tristan und Isolde_? I'm seeing several releases - Naxos, Pristine, Membran, Diverdi, and three EMI.


The Pristine probably has the best sound, but it's mucho dinero..
The remastered EMI would be fine,
The sound is very good.


----------



## annaw

adriesba said:


> What release has the best mastering of the Furtwängler _Tristan und Isolde_? I'm seeing several releases - Naxos, Pristine, Membran, Diverdi, and three EMI.


I've listened to Pristine and the sound is very good but then again it's probably more expensive than the others (haven't compared the prices though). Pristine has sounds samples as well, so you can hear it yourself.


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## Music Snob

I prefer the EMI remaster from 2001 (?). The cost for the Pristine is not worth it in this case, IMO.


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## adriesba

That Pristine sound sample surely is tempting! But wow, that's expensive! 

By the way, why have all these different labels released it? Isn't it now copyrighted by Warner?


----------



## gvn

howlingfantods said:


> Originally Posted by gvn
> a download will be lost when the drive on which it's loaded dies (1-5 years).
> 
> 
> 
> i can't imagine anyone who has a substantial digital library who would be crazy enough not to back up their music libraries on multiple drives.
Click to expand...

I'm sure I'm much, much crazier than you can imagine, but one of my few signs of sanity is the fact that I do indeed back up digital material on two duplicate drives. HOWEVER... 2 weeks ago I was carefully backing up material from one 8TB drive to the other, AND BOTH DRIVES FAILED SIMULTANEOUSLY. Result, I lost absolutely everything that I didn't also have on CD. Smoke has been coming out of my ears ever since....

Afterthought: Of course, there's nothing new about this problem, and the answer was given thousands of years ago:

"Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal" (Matthew 6:19-20).

Only problem is, I haven't yet figured out how to back up my Furtwängler Rings there.


----------



## flamencosketches

Music Snob said:


> Thank you- I stand corrected. I have tried my best to understand all these formats and it is not always easy. I thank you for the clarification.
> 
> My manager at work was telling me a few years ago that Neil Young was trying to develop a 24bit technology CD and player for better sound quality. In my mind I was thinking, " Who needs to hear Neil Young in 24 bit?" I guess to each there own!


And I'm sure your manager was thinking, "who needs to hear 70-year-old Wagner live bootlegs in 24 bit"?


----------



## Granate

gvn said:


> I'm sure I'm much, much crazier than you can imagine, but one of my few signs of sanity is the fact that I do indeed back up digital material on two duplicate drives. HOWEVER... 2 weeks ago I was carefully backing up material from one 8TB drive to the other, AND BOTH DRIVES FAILED SIMULTANEOUSLY. Result, I lost absolutely everything that I didn't also have on CD. Smoke has been coming out of my ears ever since....


Shame. I think I was about to go by the same path than you. That transfer seems very agressive. By the time I need to pass my data from my old WD Hard Disc to the new one, I'll copy it first to the laptop and then to the new one.


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## vincula

Music Snob said:


> I prefer the EMI remaster from 2001 (?). The cost for the Pristine is not worth it in this case, IMO.


Pristine's very expensive. What about the Naxos Historical one? Does it sound better than the EMI one? Price's roughly the same on both cases...

Regards,

Vincula


----------



## Granate

vincula said:


> What about the Naxos Historical one?


It elevates the orchestral colour at the expense of the vocal cleanness. They used a HQ Long Play tape to remaster. Results are nice.


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## wkasimer

vincula said:


> Pristine's very expensive. What about the Naxos Historical one? Does it sound better than the EMI one? Price's roughly the same on both cases...


I compared them a long time ago. As I recall, they did sound somewhat different, although it was hard to say which was "better". I ended up keeping the EMI.


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## vincula

Thanks to both of you :tiphat:. I've got only Bohm's Bayreuth '66 on the shelves, which I really like. If the difference in SQ's only marginal, then I'll buy the cheapest of those two. 

Regards,

Vincula


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## DarkAngel

adriesba said:


> What release has the best mastering of the Furtwängler _Tristan und Isolde_? I'm seeing several releases - Naxos, Pristine, Membran, Diverdi, and three EMI.





adriesba said:


> That Pristine sound sample surely is tempting! *But wow, that's expensive!*


For me Pristine XR is the best sound 52 Tristan Furtwangler, the cost is high for individual purchase but you quickly realize for the price of 3 albums you can get *annual HD streaming service* and have unlimited access to entire amazing Pristine catalog 

As always there is long HD music sample to check using your existing streaming audio system
https://www.pristineclassical.com/products/paco067?_pos=1&_sid=1252259b3&_ss=r










Fanfare Magazine comments on Pristine XR remaster:



> *The real question for collectors is whether this Pristine transfer is significantly superior to the earlier ones*. I had praise for both EMI's and Naxos's versions, giving a very slight edge to the Naxos transfer by Mark Obert-Thorn. I was not expecting a meaningful difference in Andrew Rose's effort for Pristine, but in fact it is enough of an improvement to warrant its purchase by any serious collector. In addition to listening to it all the way through, I did a number of spot A-B comparisons to the EMI and Naxos. It seems to me that Rose has managed to come up with a sound picture that is fuller at both the upper and lower extremes of frequency, without ever turning the sound harsh. It is the bass that is particularly impressive here-never boomy, but satisfyingly solid with an impact missing until now. The orchestral colors are richer, the voices bloom more, and the whole is more satisfying than it has ever been. I heard the ambient stereo version, but assume the monaural version that Pristine also issues is of equal quality. Pristine's ambient stereo bears no relation to the pseudo-stereo that the record companies tried to peddle in the 1970s, but instead manages to create just a bit more of a sense of space around the sound. Of course Pristine's version is also available as a FLAC download from its website.


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## starthrower

The ebay vendor screwed up and sent me Bernstein's Tristan instead of Furtwangler. Should I keep it? I wasn't even aware that Bernstein recorded this opera.


----------



## wkasimer

starthrower said:


> The ebay vendor screwed up and sent me Bernstein's Tristan instead of Furtwangler. Should I keep it? I wasn't even aware that Bernstein recorded this opera.


It's certainly worth hearing, at least once. The cast is seriously flawed, but the orchestral contribution is excellent. Bernstein's conducting is quite passionate, and he does his best to drown out his Tristan and Isolde, which is a good thing in this case.


----------



## starthrower

Disc one playing now. The orchestra does sound great. I guess I'll wait and see what the vendor offers me. I still want the Furtwangler.


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## adriesba

I've never listened to Bernstein's recording. But apparently it's one of the longest at almost 4½ hours. One release splits it among five CDs.



wkasimer said:


> It's certainly worth hearing, at least once. The cast is seriously flawed, but the orchestral contribution is excellent. Bernstein's conducting is quite passionate, and he does his best to drown out his Tristan and Isolde, which is a good thing in this case.


Do you think the rest of the cast is problematic or just the two leads?


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## starthrower

Review here: http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2005/dec05/wagner_tristan_4757020.htm


----------



## howlingfantods

Azol said:


> I guess it works for you but... but...
> Not meant as trolling but do you happen to scan your books onto the harddisk then throw them away as well? Scans do contain the same texts and take no space on your shelf.
> Storage space is NOT a limitation nowadays, flac files are identical copies of your CDs while 320-mp3s are not. Moreover, there are newer, better formats if you insist on losing some quality to gain storage space - check out m4a format, for example.
> Sorry for extended offtopic but I guess information is the key here.


i actually did get rid of my books when i got a kindle. i've never been that sentimental about physical media, i celebrated when i could sell off my LPs and get CDs instead, and once CDs got to take too much space, i threw away all the clamshells and stuck the disks into those disk folder things, and was thrilled when i could ditch those for digital storage.

i kind of feel like my penchant for having a small'ish library is what makes maintaining and frequently backing up my library pretty easy and manageable. i have 238 days worth of music in my library and it's under 1 terabyte--i could store a backup on a thumb drive (something i'm actually thinking hard about especially after reading gvn's horror story).


----------



## adriesba

howlingfantods said:


> i actually did get rid of my books when i got a kindle. i've never been that sentimental about physical media, i celebrated when i could sell off my LPs and get CDs instead, and once CDs got to take too much space, i threw away all the clamshells and stuck the disks into those disk folder things, and was thrilled when i could ditch those for digital storage.
> 
> i kind of feel like my penchant for having a small'ish library is what makes maintaining and frequently backing up my library pretty easy and manageable. i have 238 days worth of music in my library and it's under 1 terabyte--i could store a backup on a thumb drive (something i'm actually thinking hard about especially after reading gvn's horror story).


Definitely have backups if it's all digital. Perhaps you could also invest in online storage?


----------



## howlingfantods

adriesba said:


> Definitely have backups if it's all digital. Perhaps you could also invest in online storage?


oh yeah of course i have a backup! i'm just considering getting a high capacity thumb drive to be my second backup.


----------



## adriesba

howlingfantods said:


> oh yeah of course i have a backup! i'm just considering getting a high capacity thumb drive to be my second backup.


Yes, that's what I mean - have several backups. Maybe you might want something online in case you got burglarized or your house was flooded and everything ruined! But who knows how extreme one has to be. :lol:


----------



## Azol

starthrower said:


> The ebay vendor screwed up and sent me Bernstein's Tristan instead of Furtwangler. Should I keep it? I wasn't even aware that Bernstein recorded this opera.


This is one of the most interesting Tristans out there, definitely give it a good listen. I do not see the cast as flawed... Hoffman flawed?!? Behrens is in her prime, flawed?!? I totally do not understand the critique, the only thing that might not work for everyone's tastes is the tempi (40 minutes longer than Bohm recording!)
This is an amazing recording in my opinion and I guess it's much pricier than the one you were supposed to get, especially if it's Philips original CD package, not a reissue 
Listen to sublime Liebestod if you want to get a quick idea.

P.S. It was recorded "semi-live", i.e. one act per session so singers came at it fresh, which means Hoffman does impress in ACT III, hallucination scene being one of the most effective on record.


----------



## annaw

Azol said:


> This is one of the most interesting Tristans out there, definitely give it a good listen. I do not see the cast as flawed... Hoffman flawed?!? Behrens is in her prime, flawed?!? I totally do not understand the critique, the only thing that might not work for everyone's tastes is the tempi (40 minutes longer than Bohm recording!)
> This is an amazing recording in my opinion and I guess it's much pricier than the one you were supposed to get, especially if it's Philips original CD package, not a reissue
> Listen to sublime Liebestod if you want to get a quick idea.
> 
> P.S. It was recorded "semi-live", i.e. one act per session so singers came at it fresh, which means Hoffman does impress in ACT III, hallucination scene being one of the most effective on record.


I haven't listened to Bernstein's recording in full but I listened to some excerpts. Hofmann doesn't sound like a heldentenor with similar inexhaustible vocal power like that of Melchior or Suthaus. Windgassen had a more lyric voice as well but he sang with style and intelligence which enabled him to sing roles like Tristan and Siegfried without sounding like he was about to faint midway through.

Hofmann's voice seems to be more fit for the _jugendlich_ Wagner roles, like Lohengrin, but Tristan really requires a true helden-voice or very intelligent singing. If you compare Hofmann's _O diese sonne_ to Suthaus', the difference can be heard quite well.

That's the first impression I have from what I listened to.


----------



## Azol

I quickly sampled Windgassen vs Hofmann (sp!) and still prefer a tad more "legato" and baritonal approach of Hofmann, the recording balance clearly is in Windgassen's favor and he offers have more impact here (recorded in Bayreuth Festspielhaus).
Another recording (live from Bayreuth Festspielhaus) with Ramon Vinay and we can hear the same balance between the tenor and orchestra, as if recording microphone was located in the near soundfield.
But, as we know, orchestra in Bayreuth is hidden under the stage while in Bernstein's case it was on the podium and the resulting balance reflects that (I have the full video production as well, priceless document!)


----------



## starthrower

Azol said:


> This is one of the most interesting Tristans out there, definitely give it a good listen. I do not see the cast as flawed... Hoffman flawed?!? Behrens is in her prime, flawed?!? I totally do not understand the critique, the only thing that might not work for everyone's tastes is the tempi (40 minutes longer than Bohm recording!)
> This is an amazing recording in my opinion and I guess it's much pricier than the one you were supposed to get, especially if it's Philips original CD package, not a reissue
> Listen to sublime Liebestod if you want to get a quick idea.
> 
> P.S. It was recorded "semi-live", i.e. one act per session so singers came at it fresh, which means Hoffman does impress in ACT III, hallucination scene being one of the most effective on record.


Yes, I did end up with the original Philips 5 disc set and I'm keeping it. The packaging has some wear but the discs are pristine without a mark. The vocalists are excellent as is the orchestra under Bernstein's direction. All of the other copies selling online are going for more than twice as much as I paid so the vendor did me a favor by screwing up. If I want to pick up the Furtwangler there are affordable copies of the EMI edition.


----------



## wkasimer

adriesba said:


> Do you think the rest of the cast is problematic or just the two leads?


Weikl, Sotin, and Minton are fine. Behrens and Hofmann are not.


----------



## wkasimer

Azol said:


> This is one of the most interesting Tristans out there, definitely give it a good listen. I do not see the cast as flawed... Hoffman flawed?!? Behrens is in her prime, flawed?!?


They're both obviously working at the limits of their vocal resources, so that at virtually every climactic point, they're essentially screaming rather than singing. You're welcome, of course, to like that sort of thing - I prefer to hear singers who don't sound as though they're ready to cough up a lung or two.


----------



## starthrower

Hoffman sounds find to me. Behrens has a tremendous voice but she does make your head snap back when she hits the high notes. But since I like this opera I can put up with it for the occasional listen.


----------



## starthrower

Listening to Nilsson now on Bohm's 1966 recording. She obviously sounds more disciplined and in control which produces a more graceful sound and performance. Just my two cents from someone who knows jack about opera singers.


----------



## Bogdan

wkasimer said:


> It's astonishing that EMI/Warner hasn't done anything to improve that RAI RING sonically - the remastering currently in circulation is 30 years old, and sounds only marginally better than the Seraphim LP's that I bought in 1972.


Well, they did, but apparently only in Japan where you can buy an expensive SACD edition which reportedly is a marked improvement.


----------



## flamencosketches

starthrower said:


> Listening to Nilsson now on Bohm's 1966 recording. She obviously sounds more disciplined and in control which produces a more graceful sound and performance. Just my two cents from someone who knows jack about opera singers.


Böhm/Bayreuth '66 is the one I have. A great performance from Ms. Nilsson, I would agree, but also amazingly conducted and played. It would seem that Böhm's zippy Wagner is the opposite of his slow, heavy Mozart. (For what it's worth, I enjoy both.)


----------



## vincula

I'm totally hooked on this _Tristan und Isolde_:






Knappertsbusch live Munich '50. Hypnotic. Superb cast. I can't sit down when Helena Braun sings!

Regards,

Vincula


----------



## Granate

Aaarg! I need to listen to the entire performance soon! I may want to get the 50% off recording from the original tapes










Let me finish those Tchaikovsky symphony spares!


----------



## Itullian

vincula said:


> I'm totally hooked on this _Tristan und Isolde_:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Knappertsbusch live Munich '50. Hypnotic. Superb cast. I can't sit down when Helena Braun sings!
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Vincula


One of the best!


----------



## Granate

Wrong thread sorry


----------



## nospoonboy

Does anyone happen to have the Golden Melodram edition of the '58 Knappertsbusch Bayreuth Ring that would be willing to trade? I cannot find this anywhere. One of the things that interests me about the GM edition is that (while it may have a sketchy provenance) they are from the original BR mastertapes. I already have the GM '56 & '57 editions, but feel the '58 is superior. Thank you


----------



## bz3

Historical Wagner fans I have a question. What Toscanini Wagner recordings are worth hearing?


----------



## Granate

Exactly! Is this £6 recording worth the listen at all?


----------



## amfortas

bz3 said:


> Historical Wagner fans I have a question. What Toscanini Wagner recordings are worth hearing?


This one, absolutely.


----------



## Itullian

Double cd set


----------



## JonBow

Toscanini's most important Wagner recording is the complete, un-cut "Meistersinger" from Salzburg in 1937. It has been released on various labels, but the Andante and Immortal Performances versions are the best (relatively speaking, the sound is still pretty terrible). There are also some bits and pieces from the 1936 performance floating around (with Lotte Lehmann as Eva!).






Then there is the NBC "All-Wagner" concert from Carnegie Hall in 1941 with Lauritz Melchior and Helen Traubel. This includes the final scene of Act one of "Die Walküre", the Dawn-duet and Immolation Scene from "Götterdämmerung", in addition to other orchestral excerpts (RCA/Guild/Immortal Performances).






EDIT: you three beat me to it!


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## Eramire156

I have the Toscanini Meistersinger on the Andante label, and while not a huge Toscanini fan, I definitely think it is worth £6, not great sound but after awhile one becomes accustomed to the sound quality, now if only some would find a Toscanini at Bayreuth recording.


----------



## wkasimer

Granate said:


> Exactly! Is this £6 recording worth the listen at all?


I can't comment about this particular issue, but the performance is absolutely worth hearing, particularly for Toscanini and Nissen's Sachs.


----------



## vincula

I haven't heard that one, but I think most of the albums including Wagner orchestral excerpts issued on RCA with the NBC are worth the modest investment and... surprise! SQ's actually pretty good too.

Regards,

Vincula


----------



## JonBow

Just discovered this recording of "Tristan" which was released last year on the King International label. The performance comes from Japan where, in 1963, the Deutsche Oper Berlin were invited for the opening of the Nissay Theatre in Tokyo. So far it is only available in Japan. Here are the details:

https://www.kinginternational.co.jp/genre/kkc-2508-10/

1st November, 1963, Nissay Theatre, Tokyo
Lorin Maazel, Orchestra and Chorus of the Deutsche Oper Berlin

Tristan - Hans Beirer
Isolde - Gladys Kuchta
Brangäne - Kerstin Meyer
Kurwenal - Gustav Neidlinger
König Marke - Josef Greindl
Melot - Barry McDaniel
A Young Seaman - Donald Grobe
A Shepherd - Martin Vantin
Steersman - Walter Dicks

I haven't heard the recording yet myself, but it is significant for a few reasons:
1. It is the earliest LIVE recording of "Tristan" in stereo sound.
2. It was the second performance of "Tristan" ever in Japan - the first was five days earlier with Karl Böhm.
3. The production was by Wieland Wagner.

As I said, I haven't heard the recording, but the sound quality ought to be as good as this "Figaro" which was recorded at the same time and place:





(P.S. Could someone post a pic of the cover please - I don't have permission.)


----------



## Barbebleu

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

As requested


----------



## Itullian

I thought i was through with historical Wagner recordings but,
Just picked up a new Tristan and a G. London Dutchman. 



















Can't wait to get them.


----------



## Barbebleu

I’m listening to Das Rheingold from the 1961/62 Met season with Leinsdorf at the helm. It’s so good. Terrific cast including George London as Wotan, Paul (Mr. Approximate) Kuen, Irene Dalis, Jean Madeira, Jerome Hines, Karl Liebl and Ralph Herbert. Apparently it was the first uncut cycle at the Met Since 1940, curiously also conducted by Leinsdorf, who insisted that all the usual cuts be restored. Good man!

I’m very much looking forward to the rest of the cycle if Rheingold is anything to go by.


----------



## adriesba

Barbebleu said:


> I'm listening to Das Rheingold from the 1961/62 Met season with Leinsdorf at the helm. It's so good. Terrific cast including George London as Wotan, Paul (Mr. Approximate) Kuen, Irene Dalis, Jean Madeira, Jerome Hines, Karl Liebl and Ralph Herbert. Apparently it was the first uncut cycle at the Met Since 1940, curiously also conducted by Leinsdorf, who insisted that all the usual cuts be restored. Good man!
> 
> I'm very much looking forward to the rest of the cycle if Rheingold is anything to go by.


Sounds like an interesting recording! George London and Jean Madeira are really good on the Solti recording. I assume Madeira is Erda? Also who does Jerome Hines sing? Is he good?


----------



## DarkAngel

Barbebleu said:


> I'm listening to *Das Rheingold from the 1961/62 Met season* with Leinsdorf at the helm. It's so good. Terrific cast including George London as Wotan, Paul (Mr. Approximate) Kuen, Irene Dalis, Jean Madeira, Jerome Hines, Karl Liebl and Ralph Herbert. Apparently it was the first uncut cycle at the Met Since 1940, curiously also conducted by Leinsdorf, who insisted that all the usual cuts be restored. Good man!
> 
> I'm very much looking forward to the rest of the cycle if Rheingold is anything to go by.


Recently remastered by Pristine XR with great results, entire RING available for subscription streaming or purchase

BTW this was Nilsson's first MET radio broadcast Ring appearance so she is extra motivated to give her best, this Ring broadcast recorded over a 6 week period Edelmann is Wotan for Walkure with London getting remaining Wotan/Wanderer role

Itullian gets extra treat with "woodbird" sung by future Met star Martina Arroyo 
(she also gets norn and rheinmaiden role)


----------



## zxxyxxz

Itullian said:


> I thought i was through with historical Wagner recordings but,
> Just picked up a new Tristan and a G. London Dutchman.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can't wait to get them.


Always happy to see more people with the 1958 Tristan


----------



## vincula

And we expect to read a full review of both !

Regards,

Vincula


----------



## wkasimer

Itullian said:


> I thought i was through with historical Wagner recordings but,
> Just picked up a new Tristan and a G. London Dutchman.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can't wait to get them.


I'll be interested to hear whether the Dutchman sounds significantly better than the previously available Myto version.

BTW, I note that the 1958 Tristan is steeply discounted on Amazon US.


----------



## Granate

Have you ever compared the Live recordings of the Nilsson/Windgassen Tristan und Isolde performances and decided if any could beat the Böhm DG release? I've been thinking if the Sawallisch 1958 was worthier for having Windgassen in his best shape, or stereo sound was enough impulse to consider it the best.

Another thing against the earlier performances is if the secondary casts can beat Wächter, Ludwig and Talvela.


----------



## zxxyxxz

Granate said:


> Have you ever compared the Live recordings of the Nilsson/Windgassen Tristan und Isolde performances and decided if any could beat the Böhm DG release? I've been thinking if the Sawallisch 1958 was worthier for having Windgassen in his best shape, or stereo sound was enough impulse to consider it the best.
> 
> Another thing against the earlier performances is if the secondary casts can beat Wächter, Ludwig and Talvela.


Well my book always says 1958, secondary task is much better and the mix favours Windgassen making him audiable I found Nilsson overpowered him in the 1966, or it did in my memory.


----------



## Itullian

My 1960 Kempe Ring arrived today!!!!!!!
It's beautiful!!


----------



## Itullian

Act 2 of Siegfried


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> Act 2 of Siegfried


That was quick or was that where you started?:lol:


----------



## Itullian

Barbebleu said:


> That was quick or was that where you started?:lol:


Rheingold yesterday.
Siegfried Act 2 today, because i love that Act.


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> Rheingold yesterday.
> Siegfried Act 2 today, because i love that Act.


Not too fussed about Kempe's journey then?:lol:


----------



## Itullian

Barbebleu said:


> Not too fussed about Kempe's journey then?:lol:


i love it all.
So i pick and choose according to my every whim. 

Uhde and Kraus are great in this act.


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> i love it all.
> So i pick and choose according to my every whim.
> 
> Uhde and Kraus are great in this act.


And why not indeed!


----------



## vincula

As combination of an intriguing thread here on TC and Granate's recommendation, I'm now half-way through this Lohengrin:









It had reached the mailbox a few days ago along with a few other goodies and was patiently resting on the shelf. What an electrifying performance this is! I got so carried away that I started clapping with the audience. I might even have coughed a few times in sympathy too :lol:

Regards,

Vincula


----------



## Barbebleu

1958 was a pretty good year at Bayreuth.


----------



## Granate

Glad you loved it vincula. It was the first recording I played on my mono bluetooth speaker a year ago and every Varnay part blasted me out. The sound quality was abnormal.

I was asked by Flamencosketches a few days ago and I didn't really know what to reply:

What's your opinion about Cluytens' way with conducting Wagner?



Barbebleu said:


> 1958 was a pretty good year at Bayreuth.


Well, almost perfect. Neidlinger went missing and Varnay wasn't on her best shape for Brunnhilde. The best thing was the new blood that showed up in the theatre: Hans Beirer, Jon Vickers, Leonie Rysanek, Rita Gorr, Regine Crespin, Eberhard Wächter, Jerome Hines... It was a great year for Wieland as he replaced almost the entire Parsifal cast.


----------



## vincula

Granate said:


> Glad you loved it vincula. It was the first recording I played on my mono bluetooth speaker a year ago and every Varnay part blasted me out. The sound quality was abnormal.
> 
> I was asked by Flamencosketches a few days ago and I didn't really know what to reply:
> 
> What's your opinion about Cluytens' way with conducting Wagner?


I'm playing the cd's on my main bedroom rig -all valve amps and my beloved Tandberg speakers- and I've got no complaints about the SQ at all. It actually sounds quite good. Few tape drops or hisses here and there, stage noises, but nothing disturbing -at least it does not bother _me_. Your mileage may vary. It has a great sense of presence and it conveys the emotion of the live setting. There are a few minor cuts too. End of Act I, for instance. Nothing major.

I really like Cluytens' conducting. It extracts a delicate and beautiful tone from the orchestra without being too dominating and it has a great sense of flow without rushing up things and turning overdramatic. I got completely absorbed my the _action_, even though I _knew_ what was going to happen. I feel the acting as much as the singing here. Drama and theatre. A special mention should go for the way he handles the choir too.

There are of course a few rough edges, but it really moves me. Someone's might kill me for saying this, but I'm enjoying it more than the much-praised Kempe version.

A really pleasant surprise, thanks 

Regards,

Vincula


----------



## howlingfantods

Barbebleu said:


> And why not indeed!


do you usually start at the start barbe? I almost always start a new cycle with walkure or act 3 of gotterdammerung.


----------



## Barbebleu

howlingfantods said:


> do you usually start at the start barbe? I almost always start a new cycle with walkure or act 3 of gotterdammerung.


I tend to start at the very beginning, a very good place to start!:lol:


----------



## Barbebleu

Wrong reply!xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


----------



## Barbebleu

This to Annaw. Nice to spot the Julie Andrews fans:lol:


----------



## adriesba

Did I miss something? 
I have no idea what's going on.


----------



## annaw

adriesba said:


> Did I miss something?
> I have no idea what's going on.


Barbe quoted _The Sound of Music_ "Do Re Mi": Let's start at the very beginning. A very good place to start.

I agree with this statement wholeheartedly when I listen to a new recording of _Ring_ and have to choose where to begin :lol:.


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## adriesba

annaw said:


> Barbe quoted _The Sound of Music_ "Do Re Mi": Let's start at the very beginning. A very good place to start.
> 
> I agree with this statement wholeheartedly when I listen to a new recording of _Ring_ and have to choose where to begin :lol:.


Now I will have the song in my head! :lol:

The opening to _Das Rheingold _is such a perfect opening. Yes.


----------



## adriesba

Is Golden Melodram still in business, and do they have a website to order from? Or is there some website that sells all of their recordings?

Some of their releases are hard to find whether it be CD, streaming, or download.


----------



## The Conte

adriesba said:


> Is Golden Melodram still in business, and do they have a website to order from? Or is there some website that sells all of their recordings?
> 
> Some of their releases are hard to find whether it be CD, streaming, or download.


They went out of business years ago and (as far as I'm aware) their CDs are only available used.

N.


----------



## Granate

I noticed yesterday that Spotify had released an early MYTO edition of a Lohengrin that wasn't reissued in the 2010s: this one by Richard Kraus, a studio recording by the Kölner Rundfunk-Sinfonie-Orchester. I had never seen any of these old myto editions ever on Spotify. There could be more hidden in the plattform.










About Golden Melodram, it's true that it was the first label to release LPs back in the day, and then CD, finishing the activity in the 2000s. But I would say that companies like this, like Memories Reverence or the Archipel organization too, have a very niche audience to whom they never offer any contact or transparency about their activities. I think that the only trust-worthy companies that care about their products rather than offering recordings for a cheap price are Music and Arts, Pristine Classical, Naxos Historical and Divina Records. The rest seem to come and go. It's all too obscure.

I was really surprised, and happy, to see a label like Pan Classics (which takes tapes from Andromeda and MYTO, which belong to Archipel) reissue the first Kempe Ring from 1960 even if that means using the third performance of Die Walküre with Varnay, as the also very suspicious Opera Depot has released the complete first run of the Ring season that year.

To see Pan Classics revived makes me really happy. That means that Archipel has not really disappeared and we could start getting late 60s live recordings and also reissues of the 50s performances that are OOP already.

Soon or later I'll listen to my recording of the 1958 Siegfried in Bayreuth, which is on my side but still sealed. I'm in a new round of spare recordings of Tchaikovsky Symphonies. Last one before the partial and complete symphony cycles.


----------



## Itullian

Siegfried Act 3 today.
What's extra great about this set is that all 3 acts of Siegfried are on separate discs.
Acts 1 and 3 of Walkure are separate. And Act 2 is almost except for the first 8 minutes which are on disc one.
For Gotterdammerung acts 2 and 3 are on their own discs
and act 1 is split equally between discs 1 & 2.
So 7 acts are hears uninterrupted!!!! 
The sound is good, consistent mono.
The conducting and performances are excellent!
The packaging is beautiful.
I get many chills from this set.


----------



## adriesba

Granate, what is suspicious about Opera Depot?

...

I once contacted Music and Arts about a recording released on one of their predecessor labels. From what they said, apparently they don't have it anymore. I don't understand why people would have a recording as historically interesting as the one I inquired about and not care about preserving it for possible future release.

It happened with the _Tristan und Isolde_ performed in Japan with Nilsson, Windgassen, and Hotter. I contacted the company that once released it on VHS. They don't have it... Why would someone not preserve it or throw stuff like that away? I mean come on, it was a performance with Nilsson, Windgassen, and Hotter in a Wieland Wagner production! Fortunately it's now on YouTube at least.

I also don't understand why companies like BBC among others sit on their massive library of recordings, not making them available for people to listen to.


----------



## Barbebleu

Granate said:


> I noticed yesterday that Spotify had released an early MYTO edition of a Lohengrin that wasn't reissued in the 2010s: this one by Richard Kraus, a studio recording by the Kölner Rundfunk-Sinfonie-Orchester. I had never seen any of these old myto editions ever on Spotify. There could be more hidden in the plattform.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> as the also very suspicious Opera Depot has released the complete first run of the Ring season that year.


Yes Granate, what is suspicious about Opera Depot. I have used them for years and have never experienced a problem. Is it the provenance of the recordings that's in question.


----------



## Itullian

Had to hear more.......
Walkure Ac2 
Jerome Hines' Wotan. WWWOOOOOOOOWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Eramire156

Itullian said:


> Had to hear more.......
> Walkure Ac2
> Jerome Hines' Wotan. WWWOOOOOOOOWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!


Finally have some uninterrupted time to begin this cycle, very good mono sound.


----------



## adriesba

Has anyone heard this recording?










Edit: It may also be this, though I'm not sure how sound quality differs.


----------



## Barbebleu

adriesba said:


> Has anyone heard this recording?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: It may also be this, though I'm not sure how sound quality differs.


No, but I'll be hunting this down now. :lol:


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## adriesba

Barbebleu said:


> No, but I'll be hunting this down now. :lol:


Indeed it looks interesting. If you get it, let us know how it is.

I'll probably try to get it myself.


----------



## Granate

adriesba said:


> Has anyone heard this recording?
> 
> It may also be this, though I'm not sure how sound quality differs.


Dull.

_"Really underwhelming protagonist. Dalis is not bad as Venus. Rysanek is perfect for that Elisabeth. Not interested."_


----------



## Granate

adriesba said:


> I also don't understand why companies like BBC among others sit on their massive library of recordings, not making them available for people to listen to.


The issue is that the niche is so small even inside the Classical Music fandom that they would put in doubt that it is a public service. Very few people are willing to put the effort and curiosity in listening to popular works that are widely available in good studio recordings.

Then you have the BPO label releasing old wartime mono recordings by Furtwängler in SACD, plus lots of collectors items sold for a lot of money.

Thus why I urgently purchase historical recordings on cd before they cease existing.


----------



## Barbebleu

Granate said:


> Dull.
> 
> _"Really underwhelming protagonist. Dalis is not bad as Venus. Rysanek is perfect for that Elisabeth. Not interested."_


Ah well, that's off the wish list then.


----------



## adriesba

OK........ But why is Opera Depot suspicious? Do I need to be worried?


----------



## Granate

adriesba said:


> OK........ But why is Opera Depot suspicious? Do I need to be worried?


In this forum some of us wonder where did the owner take the tapes from for the OD releases of the Böhm 1968 Meistersinger in Bayreuth and the Kubelík Bavarian Meistersinger. To name a few. Also, OD is currently the only place to buy the 1963 Knappertsbusch Parsifal (Hotter/Dalis/Windgassen). There are lots of Wagner recordings compared to the other composers.

I can prove that the Memories Reverence release of Knappertsbusch Bruckner symphonies blatantly steals the M&A 2002 remaster of the Syphony No.5 performance in Munich. For that reason, I've kept buying lots of Memories releases in case they were prosecuted!

:lol:


----------



## Barbebleu

Granate said:


> In this forum some of us wonder where did the owner take the tapes from for the OD releases of the Böhm 1968 Meistersinger in Bayreuth and the Kubelík Bavarian Meistersinger. To name a few. Also, OD is currently the only place to buy the 1963 Knappertsbusch Parsifal (Hotter/Dalis/Windgassen). There are lots of Wagner recordings compared to the other composers.
> 
> I can prove that the Memories Reverence release of Knappertsbusch Bruckner symphonies blatantly steals the M&A 2002 remaster of the Syphony No.5 performance in Munich. For that reason, I've kept buying lots of Memories releases in case they were prosecuted!
> 
> :lol:


OD is not the only place for the 1963 Bayreuth Parsifal .


----------



## Granate

I know Golden Melodram released it first. But where else is it?


----------



## Rogerx

adriesba said:


> OK........ But why is Opera Depot suspicious? Do I need to be worried?


Not at all, the Christa Luwig: Verdi -Macbeth comes from me. I send it them my self .
Keep the Wagner going now.


----------



## Barbebleu

Granate said:


> I know Golden Melodram released it first. But where else is it?


https://www.operapassion.com/cdd-1239.html

:tiphat:


----------



## Granate

Thank you! Too bad for the shipping costs for people outside the US. It's a performance I recommend. Late Windgassen sounds really wholesome in light roles like Parsifal, Lohengrin and Walther.


----------



## howlingfantods

operapassion also does mp3 downloads.

i'm not sure what the skepticism is about. I've bought dozens and dozens of things from OD and have never found reason for complaint. except sometimes the performances aren't as good as they look on paper, but that's hardly OD's fault....


----------



## adriesba

Barbebleu said:


> https://www.operapassion.com/cdd-1239.html
> 
> :tiphat:


I have actually heard bad things about that website.


----------



## Barbebleu

adriesba said:


> I have actually heard bad things about that website.


What have you heard? I've used them occasionally over the last few years.


----------



## adriesba

Barbebleu said:


> What have you heard? I've used them occasionally over the last few years.


Some say they have had no problem. But I have heard that they are pirates and that the recordings sound really bad. Also heard that they have terrible service and take really long to get back to you. It could be people just whining or just finding reason to complain, but I was not able to find much information or feedback about the site. I don't think I'm allowed to link where I read about them as it was a music forum, but Google their web address and you should see what I saw.


----------



## Barbebleu

adriesba said:


> Some say they have had no problem. But I have heard that they are pirates and that the recordings sound really bad. Also heard that they have terrible service and take really long to get back to you. It could be people just whining or just finding reason to complain, but I was not able to find much information or feedback about the site. I don't think I'm allowed to link where I read about them as it was a music forum, but Google their web address and you should see what I saw.


I've only ever downloaded from them and the recordings have been the quality I would expect from off-air recordings and other broadcast material. None of the ones I got have been unlistenable but then again I don't know what the cds sound like.

You get what you pay for I suppose.


----------



## Barbebleu

Granate said:


> I noticed yesterday that Spotify had released an early MYTO edition of a Lohengrin that wasn't reissued in the 2010s: this one by Richard Kraus, a studio recording by the Kölner Rundfunk-Sinfonie-Orchester. I had never seen any of these old myto editions ever on Spotify. There could be more hidden in the plattform.


Here's a mystery to be solved Granate. On the front of this recording it says Frankfurt 1951. But on the back it says Köln 1951. Given it's a Köln Orchestra I'm thinking that it may not have been recorded in Frankfurt! Who knows?
From what I can see on the 'net it seems to be definitely Köln.


----------



## Azol

Definitely says Köln on the back, so the front must be an error.


----------



## Music Snob

Excited to get the Schorr Meistersinger with the 1931 Baribolli conducted quintet featuring Elizabeth Schumann and Melichior...


----------



## annaw

Has anyone compared the sound quality of Teldec and Naxos releases of Keilberth 1953 _Lohengrin_? Is there any difference?

I finally finished listening to it yesterday and it was absolutely stunning! Lohengrin seems to be voice-wise a very good role for Windgassen and Uhde+Varnay duo is simply pure gold.


----------



## zxxyxxz

annaw said:


> Has anyone compared the sound quality of Teldec and Naxos releases of Keilberth 1953 _Lohengrin_? Is there any difference?
> 
> I finally finished listening to it yesterday and it was absolutely stunning! Lohengrin seems to be voice-wise a very good role for Windgassen and Uhde+Varnay duo is simply pure gold.


I only have the Naxos one and my memory is that the sound is very good, but the opera for me drags. I think the following year is better.


----------



## The Conte

annaw said:


> Has anyone compared the sound quality of Teldec and Naxos releases of Keilberth 1953 _Lohengrin_? Is there any difference?
> 
> I finally finished listening to it yesterday and it was absolutely stunning! Lohengrin seems to be voice-wise a very good role for Windgassen and Uhde+Varnay duo is simply pure gold.


I've found the version on Membran/Documents to be better than the Naxos, but have not compared it with the Teldec.

N.


----------



## annaw

zxxyxxz said:


> I only have the Naxos one and my memory is that the sound is very good, but the opera for me drags. I think the following year is better.


I have to check it out next. Nilsson and Varnay together must be a true powerhouse combination!



The Conte said:


> I've found the version on Membran/Documents to be better than the Naxos, but have not compared it with the Teldec.
> 
> N.


Huge thanks! I'll see if I can find the Membran/Documents version then.


----------



## Granate

Hey guys! Finally available in Spotify


----------



## ELbowe

I have made the conscious decision to "listen" and explore Wagner's operas. While I consider myself to be a Classical music fan for over 50 years I have always been intimidated by Opera in general and consequently somewhat dismissive of the genre. I can watch an opera on TV or DVD (hopefully with subtitles) and enjoy it but sitting listening to a CD or LP especially of Wagner I feel a bit at sea and ..frankly intimidated. "Fidelio" I have loved since I first heard it as I found it accessible with the music speaking for itself. I feel I need to push myself, possibly read in advance some of the back-ground and attentively listen to Wagner's works. I feel (rightly or wrongly) Wagner is the man in Opera and if I can feel comfortable with his works then mission accomplished.
By mere chance yesterday I found some old LP box sets at the Salvation Army store: "Berliner Philharmoniker, Herbert Von Karajan - Die Walküre", " Boston Symphony Orchestra / Erich Leinsdorf, Sándor Kónya, Lucine Amara, Rita Gorr, William Dooley, Jerome Hines, Calvin Marsh - Lohengrin" and "Dorati, George London, Leonie Rysanek, Rosalind Elias, Karl Liebl, Richard Lewis - The Flying Dutchman" The LPs are in very good condition, the boxes a little less so but they were very cheap $2 each. I have dived in (The Flying Dutchman) with readable (big print) Libretto in hand and am enjoying it. As Die Walkure is part of the cycle someone may wish to advise me if I should explore the opening Opera in the Ring cycle first before examining this part. In fact any advise given by experienced listeners here I will gratefully accept. I have been a lurker on this site for years and gained so much from reading the subjects on the various fora, it was time for me to join up and ask some of the many questions I have stored away. Thanks in advance!


----------



## wkasimer

annaw said:


> I have to check it out next. Nilsson and Varnay together must be a true powerhouse combination!


Nilsson sang the role in 1954. 1953 had Eleanor Steber, who is vastly superior in the role.

At one time, I had both the Naxos and Teldec. IIRC, the sonic difference wasn't drastic, but I ended up keeping the Naxos and culling the Teldec. I haven't heard the Documents/Membran issue, but I've never heard anything on that label that I thought was sonically superior to more legitimate issues.


----------



## annaw

wkasimer said:


> *Nilsson sang the role in 1954. 1953 had Eleanor Steber, who is vastly superior in the role.*
> 
> At one time, I had both the Naxos and Teldec. IIRC, the sonic difference wasn't drastic, but I ended up keeping the Naxos and culling the Teldec. I haven't heard the Documents/Membran issue, but I've never heard anything on that label that I thought was sonically superior to more legitimate issues.


I managed to listen Act I of the 1954 recording yesterday and, indeed, Nilsson doesn't sound perfect for the role because there's no way her authoritative voice could sound as innocent as Grümmer's or Steber's. Of course it's understandable that such huge voice cannot be unleashed or it would become questionable why Elsa couldn't have fought Friedrich herself, but it creates a sense of a big dramatic voice being intentionally reined back. While Nilsson is not Elsa, I enjoy listening how she hits all those high notes cleanly and confidently but, as an overall performance, I guess I prefer the 1953 recording as well (although I still have two more acts of the 1954 to listen). Windgassen's not-quite-heldentenor voice sounds enjoyably heroic in _Lohengrin_ though - delightful.


----------



## Barbebleu

ELbowe said:


> I have made the conscious decision to "listen" and explore Wagner's operas. While I consider myself to be a Classical music fan for over 50 years I have always been intimidated by Opera in general and consequently somewhat dismissive of the genre. I can watch an opera on TV or DVD (hopefully with subtitles) and enjoy it but sitting listening to a CD or LP especially of Wagner I feel a bit at sea and ..frankly intimidated. "Fidelio" I have loved since I first heard it as I found it accessible with the music speaking for itself. I feel I need to push myself, possibly read in advance some of the back-ground and attentively listen to Wagner's works. I feel (rightly or wrongly) Wagner is the man in Opera and if I can feel comfortable with his works then mission accomplished.
> By mere chance yesterday I found some old LP box sets at the Salvation Army store: "Berliner Philharmoniker, Herbert Von Karajan - Die Walküre", " Boston Symphony Orchestra / Erich Leinsdorf, Sándor Kónya, Lucine Amara, Rita Gorr, William Dooley, Jerome Hines, Calvin Marsh - Lohengrin" and "Dorati, George London, Leonie Rysanek, Rosalind Elias, Karl Liebl, Richard Lewis - The Flying Dutchman" The LPs are in very good condition, the boxes a little less so but they were very cheap $2 each. I have dived in (The Flying Dutchman) with readable (big print) Libretto in hand and am enjoying it. As Die Walkure is part of the cycle someone may wish to advise me if I should explore the opening Opera in the Ring cycle first before examining this part. In fact any advise given by experienced listeners here I will gratefully accept. I have been a lurker on this site for years and gained so much from reading the subjects on the various fora, it was time for me to join up and ask some of the many questions I have stored away. Thanks in advance!


By all means listen to the Walküre. If it gives you a taste for the rest of the cycle then job done. Enjoy the journey and never mind the destination. If you like what you hear, excellent. If you don't then that's cool too. But at least you dipped your toe in the water and some never do. :tiphat:


----------



## Azol

ELbowe said:


> I have made the conscious decision to "listen" and explore Wagner's operas. While I consider myself to be a Classical music fan for over 50 years I have always been intimidated by Opera in general and consequently somewhat dismissive of the genre. I can watch an opera on TV or DVD (hopefully with subtitles) and enjoy it but sitting listening to a CD or LP especially of Wagner I feel a bit at sea and ..frankly intimidated. "Fidelio" I have loved since I first heard it as I found it accessible with the music speaking for itself. I feel I need to push myself, possibly read in advance some of the back-ground and attentively listen to Wagner's works. I feel (rightly or wrongly) Wagner is the man in Opera and if I can feel comfortable with his works then mission accomplished.
> By mere chance yesterday I found some old LP box sets at the Salvation Army store: "Berliner Philharmoniker, Herbert Von Karajan - Die Walküre", " Boston Symphony Orchestra / Erich Leinsdorf, Sándor Kónya, Lucine Amara, Rita Gorr, William Dooley, Jerome Hines, Calvin Marsh - Lohengrin" and "Dorati, George London, Leonie Rysanek, Rosalind Elias, Karl Liebl, Richard Lewis - The Flying Dutchman" The LPs are in very good condition, the boxes a little less so but they were very cheap $2 each. I have dived in (The Flying Dutchman) with readable (big print) Libretto in hand and am enjoying it. As Die Walkure is part of the cycle someone may wish to advise me if I should explore the opening Opera in the Ring cycle first before examining this part. In fact any advise given by experienced listeners here I will gratefully accept. I have been a lurker on this site for years and gained so much from reading the subjects on the various fora, it was time for me to join up and ask some of the many questions I have stored away. Thanks in advance!


Awesome first post, welcome to the forum!!!
By all means, listen to Die Walküre, even if one act at a time (it works very well that way too).
Just remember, it's not mandatory to enjoy Wagner operas anyway 
(you might think as if someone's cried "Blasphemy!" but it was just a forest murmur or a bird's call, let me assure you)


----------



## annaw

ELbowe said:


> I have made the conscious decision to "listen" and explore Wagner's operas. While I consider myself to be a Classical music fan for over 50 years I have always been intimidated by Opera in general and consequently somewhat dismissive of the genre. I can watch an opera on TV or DVD (hopefully with subtitles) and enjoy it but sitting listening to a CD or LP especially of Wagner I feel a bit at sea and ..frankly intimidated. "Fidelio" I have loved since I first heard it as I found it accessible with the music speaking for itself. I feel I need to push myself, possibly read in advance some of the back-ground and attentively listen to Wagner's works. I feel (rightly or wrongly) Wagner is the man in Opera and if I can feel comfortable with his works then mission accomplished.
> By mere chance yesterday I found some old LP box sets at the Salvation Army store: "Berliner Philharmoniker, Herbert Von Karajan - Die Walküre", " Boston Symphony Orchestra / Erich Leinsdorf, Sándor Kónya, Lucine Amara, Rita Gorr, William Dooley, Jerome Hines, Calvin Marsh - Lohengrin" and "Dorati, George London, Leonie Rysanek, Rosalind Elias, Karl Liebl, Richard Lewis - The Flying Dutchman" The LPs are in very good condition, the boxes a little less so but they were very cheap $2 each. I have dived in (The Flying Dutchman) with readable (big print) Libretto in hand and am enjoying it. As Die Walkure is part of the cycle someone may wish to advise me if I should explore the opening Opera in the Ring cycle first before examining this part. In fact any advise given by experienced listeners here I will gratefully accept. I have been a lurker on this site for years and gained so much from reading the subjects on the various fora, it was time for me to join up and ask some of the many questions I have stored away. Thanks in advance!


Karajan _Die Walküre_ was the first Wagner recording I properly listened to. How properly is of course another question (I didn't understand anything that was going on as I didn't have a libretto, and I was in the bus, so not in a very quiet environment) but it got me VERY hooked . Try and see whether you like it. It's a great recording of an even greater opera!


----------



## ELbowe

Thank you very much~


----------



## ELbowe

Thank you Azol!
"...it was just a forest murmur or a bird's call"...great advise on many levels!!


----------



## Itullian

Das Rheingold


----------



## The Conte

Itullian said:


> Das Rheingold


Is this a boxset with a cardboard box? Or does it come in plastic jewel cases as a series of separates?

N.


----------



## Itullian

The Conte said:


> Is this a boxset with a cardboard box? Or does it come in plastic jewel cases as a series of separates?
> 
> N.


Clamshell type Cardboard Box set, cardboard sleeves. 24 bit remastered sound.


----------



## ELbowe

Barbebleu said:


> Enjoy the journey and never mind the destination.


Thanks so much!


----------



## wkasimer

Itullian said:


> Clamshell type Cardboard Box set, cardboard sleeves. 24 bit remastered sound.


It's a pity that they couldn't edit out those horrendous tenors.


----------



## MAS

wkasimer said:


> It's a pity that they couldn't edit out those horrendous tenors.


You'd have to ask Immortal Performances! :lol::lol:


----------



## Gondowe

Hello. Could those who have heard the most transfers give their opinion on the best Furtwangler Wagner transfers? 
I have read that there are some tapes of the Ring of La Scala now owned by Warner. With much better sound that would improve future processing. In fact, the Japanese label Kings Records has released an edition based on those tapes that are said to sound much better. Although the editing is bad. Does anyone know something?
And another thing, regarding his Tristan of 52. I own the first edition of EMI in CD. With the beautiful cover of the kiss. Sounds great to me. Modern reprocesses are really worth paying for? The improvements are really so many?

Greetings and thanks.


----------



## wkasimer

Gondowe said:


> Hello. Could those who have heard the most transfers give their opinion on the best Furtwangler Wagner transfers?
> I have read that there are some tapes of the Ring of La Scala now owned by Warner. With much better sound that would improve future processing.


I haven't heard that, but I'd be interested if it's the case. I haven't heard the King edition. For the 1950 La Scala version, the best transfer I've heard is on Opera d'Oro, a label that often produces shoddy work. It still doesn't sound as good as the 1953 RAI Ring; the Scala cycle is also cut to a degree, and features a couple of pretty dreadful tenors.

For the 1953 RAI Ring, the EMI transfer is better than the other domestically available transfer (I think that it's on Gebhardt; I no longer own it), but I've been told that the Japanese EMI SACD version is a significant improvement. I can't afford it, though. Ditto for the Pristine transfer - it may be an improvement, but I'm not paying the exorbitant price being asked.



> And another thing, regarding his Tristan of 52. I own the first edition of EMI in CD. With the beautiful cover of the kiss. Sounds great to me. Modern reprocesses are really worth paying for? The improvements are really so many?


I've heard several of EMI's issues of this, and the differences are, I think, quite minor. There's also a Naxos issue that sounds somewhat different, and you might find it better - I ended up keeping only on of the EMI versions.


----------



## Gondowe

wkasimer said:


> For the 1953 RAI Ring, the EMI transfer is better than the other domestically available transfer (I think that it's on Gebhardt; I no longer own it), but I've been told that the Japanese EMI SACD version is a significant improvement. I can't afford it, though. Ditto for the Pristine transfer - it may be an improvement, but I'm not paying the exorbitant price being asked.


Do you mean the old EMI transfer that I have or the modern one of Warner/EMI. Are both the same transfers or the late is improved? (Apart the Japanese you say). And yes, Pristine is very expensive
Thank you


----------



## wkasimer

Gondowe said:


> Do you mean the old EMI transfer that I have or the modern one of Warner/EMI. Are both the same transfers or the late is improved?


They're the same transfer, dated 1990.


----------



## MAS

The Furtwangler La Scala *Der Ring des Nibelungen * is in spectacular sound in a Pristine Classical transfer. Careful! You might find other Rings there!

https://www.pristineclassical.com/search?page=2&q=Der+ring+des+Nibelungen+NOT+title:CD&type=Product

They have both the RAI and La Scala incarnations. Price is a bit steep.

The 1950 La Scala May also be found on Archipel, but it's not easy... the operas may be found separately, and *Gotterdämmerung* is impossible.





























I haven't heard the Opera d'Oro set recently.


----------



## Itullian

i have this series. I've been happy with it. Any opinions on it?


----------



## Gondowe

Thank you all. 
I have from the middle 90s or so. DMvN 43 in Dante/Lys. I think it sounds pretty well with some reververation that I like but I know it is fake. I've been told the SWF has a very good transfer and that from Chibas is fine too. What do you think? Anybody has one of those and really has an improvement?
As from TuI I have as I said the EMI edition from the 80s. I feel it sounds great but What I would like to know is if the sound improvements are worthy as to pay a new one.
The studio Walkure from 54 is the 80s EMI edition. Again I think sound great. A new edition worthy?
As for the Rings I own the first EMI edition of the 53 and the Fonit Cetra from the 80s for La Scala. I suppose in the later would be an improvement in SWF and Pristine and Chibas and knowing the existence of that tapes I mentioned above...., but in the one from 53?
Pristine is very expensive, this is the question. I think I'll wait.

Greetings


----------



## wkasimer

Another question about sound quality.

I currently have Knappertsbusch's commercial Meistersinger on Naxos.









I see that there's an issue of the same recording on Eloquence.









Has anyone compared the sound of these two issues?


----------



## wkasimer

Itullian said:


> i have this series. I've been happy with it. Any opinions on it?


At one point I had the Walkure in this series. I thought that it sounded fine.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> i have this series. I've been happy with it. Any opinions on it?


I've mentioned here before that if Pristine XR did not exist the Archipel label Scala Ring has next best CD release sound quality, it will be very hard to find all 4 operas on Archipel now.....as MAS says above.

The best way to save money with Pristine XR is *subscribe to HD streaming service* and have access to entire opera and orchestral library, Andrew Rose uses a very comprehensive set of tools and unique techniques to produce amazing remasters especially with older 78 rpm disc media and radio transcription discs and tapes, please check the free long HD sound samples at the Pristine website.....

Review of Pristine XR La Scala Ring by Ralph Moore:



> http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2013/Aug13/Wagner_ring_PACO089.htm


----------



## DarkAngel

Gondowe said:


> Thank you all.
> I have from the middle 90s or so. DMvN 43 in Dante/Lys. I think it sounds pretty well with some reververation that I like but I know it is fake. *I've been told the SWF has a very good transfer and that from Chibas is fine too*. What do you think? Anybody has one of those and really has an improvement?
> 
> As from TuI I have as I said the EMI edition from the 80s. I feel it sounds great but What I would like to know is if the sound improvements are worthy as to pay a new one.
> The studio Walkure from 54 is the 80s EMI edition. Again I think sound great. A new edition worthy?
> 
> As for the Rings I own the first EMI edition of the 53 and the Fonit Cetra from the 80s for La Scala. I suppose in the later would be an improvement in SWF and Pristine and Chibas and knowing the existence of that tapes I mentioned above...., but in the one from 53?
> Pristine is very expensive, this is the question. I think I'll wait.
> 
> Greetings


Chibas has some nice remaster work, he gets some mention over at Fanfare, his website has some samples in mp3 sound quality....prices to buy FLAC dowloads are cheaper, the Furtwangler Bruckner performances have my attention here, nice 

http://furtwanglersound.com/


----------



## annaw

wkasimer said:


> ....
> Has anyone compared the sound of these two issues?


I got interested and compared these two on Promephonic's FLAC streaminng. I sampled them and I'd say that the Naxos release has a slightly boxy sound compared to the Decca release. That's my impression but I think I should listen to them thoroughly to come to a more definite conclusion. (I sometimes even prefer boxy sound when the other option is less boxy but with more background noise. That's why I prefer Sony's remastering of Reiner's 1950 Holländer to Naxos's. I'm maybe just a bit weird in this respect...)


----------



## Gondowe

DarkAngel said:


> Chibas has some nice remaster work, he gets some mention over at Fanfare, his website has some samples in mp3 sound quality....prices to buy FLAC dowloads are cheaper, the Furtwangler Bruckner performances have my attention here, nice
> 
> http://furtwanglersound.com/


Yes, I have the Bruckner 8th of 1944 and sounds great.


----------



## Gondowe

DarkAngel said:


> The best way to save money with Pristine XR is *subscribe to HD streaming service* and have access to entire opera and orchestral library, Andrew Rose uses a very comprehensive set of tools and unique techniques to produce amazing remasters especially with older 78 rpm disc media and radio transcription discs and tapes, please check the free long HD sound samples at the Pristine website.....


The problem I have with streaming is that I would like to have it in my disco. I am not familiar with these technologies and I have no way (I think) of transferring the sound to my audio equipment.


----------



## wkasimer

annaw said:


> I got interested and compared these two on Promephonic's FLAC streaminng. I sampled them and I'd say that the Naxos release has a slightly boxy sound compared to the Decca release. That's my impression but I think I should listen to them thoroughly to come to a more definite conclusion. (I sometimes even prefer boxy sound when the other option is less boxy but with more background noise. That's why I prefer Sony's remastering of Reiner's 1950 Holländer to Naxos's. I'm maybe just a bit weird in this respect...)


Thanks. I usually prefer the less boxy, more open sound - I tolerate background noise pretty well.


----------



## adriesba

What is meant by boxy?


----------



## wkasimer

adriesba said:


> What is meant by boxy?


Constricted, usually because the high frequencies have been overfiltered.


----------



## Gondowe

wkasimer said:


> Constricted, usually because the high frequencies have been overfiltered.


In this regard and continuing with the Pristine theme. For example I have the Brahms Deutches Requiem by Furtwangler in Stockholm in the Pristine edition but recently purchased the Weitblick box on ebay at a good price that contains Furt's Stockholm recordings including Tristan Prelude and Liebestod from 1942 November 25( not that with the BPO the same year). And it contains said Requiem. I made sound comparisons and the Weitblick edition has more background noise almost as if you were listening to an LP. But the dynamics, the timpani are heard much better, more wild. And in Pristine there is almost no background noise but that compromises those dynamics. I do not know if that is always the case at all times but it is something to keep in mind.


----------



## vincula

I know it's not a complete opera, but I got this album last week and I've been enjoying it a lot. Listening to Traubel and Melchior live must have been a really once-in-a-lifetime experience. Thrilling performances. Great presentation as usual on RCA Gold, including lyrics and informative booklet. The SQ's quite decent too, I must say. I've ordered a few more with Toscanini/NBC playing mostly Wagner orchestral pieces, preludes and so on.









Regards,

Vincula


----------



## DarkAngel

^^^ A companion 2CD set with Traubel and Melchior (different conductors), and the Naxos set with Flagstad and Melchior

Toscaninni has a very small wagner portfolio to explore......


----------



## Gondowe

As for the La Scala ring I think a very good option is the transfer from the SWF. I've ordered it for 20€. And being from 2011 and from a Furt society I think is in good sound Dont know as good as Pristine but I dont feel a subsrantial difference. The same can say of the Meistersinger for 12€ with a collaboration with the Japanese society.


----------



## The Conte

adriesba said:


> What is meant by boxy?


You could also describe boxy as meaning that there isn't much depth to the soundscape.

N.


----------



## Itullian

Question for you Wagner / Opera Depot fans.

What are the stereo Wagner Rings are there, and which are best?

Same with the other operas please.
Thanks :tiphat:


----------



## Granate

Only from Opera Depot?

DFH: Never needed
Tannhäuser: Never needed
Lohengrin: Karajan Salzburg 1976
Tristan und Isolde, Ring & Parsifal: Kleiber, Boulez, Stein, Bayreuth 1976


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> Question for you Wagner / Opera Depot fans.
> 
> What are the stereo Wagner Rings are there, and which are best?
> 
> Same with the other operas please.
> Thanks :tiphat:


That's a good question Itullian. I've never really paid attention to whether any of my OD recordings were stereo or mono. I have a fair number of recordings from Andy so if I have time I'll look and see which ones are stereo.


----------



## Eramire156

Opera depot is having Labor Day sale, so l'm thinking of picking up a Bayreuth Parsifal and or a ring cycle any recommendations?


----------



## Barbebleu

Parsifal - Bayreuth 1964

Ring - Salzburg 1967 to 1970.


----------



## Eramire156

Barbebleu said:


> Parsifal - Bayreuth 1964
> 
> Ring - Salzburg 1967 to 1970.


Thanks for the recommendations, Barbeleu. I already have that Parsifal on Orfeo, any others?
Thanks again.

Cheers


----------



## Barbebleu

My pleasure. xxxxxxxxxxxxx


----------



## zxxyxxz

Eramire156 said:


> Opera depot is having Labor Day sale, so l'm thinking of picking up a Bayreuth Parsifal and or a ring cycle any recommendations?


No recommendations for Parsifal but Bayreuth 1965 for a ring cycle.


----------



## annaw

zxxyxxz said:


> No recommendations for Parsifal but Bayreuth 1965 for a ring cycle.


Does anyone happen to know how is 1965 Böhm Ring compared to the 1966/67 commercial release(s)?


----------



## Barbebleu

Eramire156 said:


> Thanks for the recommendations, Barbeleu. I already have that Parsifal on Orfeo, any others?
> Thanks again.
> 
> Cheers


Bayreuth 1966. xxxxxxxxxxxxxx


----------



## Barbebleu

annaw said:


> Does anyone happen to know how is 1965 Böhm Ring compared to the 1966/67 commercial release(s)?


It's very good and has the benefit of being a proper cycle and not a hybrid like the '66/'67.


----------



## Granate

annaw said:


> Does anyone happen to know how is 1965 Böhm Ring compared to the 1966/67 commercial release(s)?


I'm also eager to get the Walküre and Siegfried from that year. Theo Adam is in his absolute best in the 1965 Rheingold and has now replaced my Philips recording from 1966.

Million thanks zxxyxxz.


----------



## Granate

Eramire156 said:


> Thanks for the recommendations, Barbeleu. I already have that Parsifal on Orfeo, any others?
> Thanks again.
> 
> Cheers


Definetely not 1956.

But rather Bayreuth 1966 (S. Kónya & Varnay) and 1967 (J. King & C. Ludwig). Mind the kind of fast Boulez conducting and the sound quality.


----------



## zxxyxxz

QUOTE=annaw;1913973]Does anyone happen to know how is 1965 Böhm Ring compared to the 1966/67 commercial release(s)?[/QUOTE]

Well there are a few minor cast changes, you get Josef Griendl as the wanderer in 1965!

The sound quality is obviously not quite as good but I personally find the recording less tiring than the eloquence remaster. For me they feel more life like and exciting.

The Siegfried in 65 is my favourite, high octane swashbuckling fun which is how I want it!

Windgassen to me is more lighter of voice than his 50's outings and I prefer it as I think he sounds wonderfully youthful (considering he just turned 51 thats one hell of an achievement.)


----------



## Barbebleu

Granate said:


> Definetely not 1956.
> 
> But rather Bayreuth 1966 (S. Kónya & Varnay) and 1967 (J. King & C. Ludwig). Mind the kind of fast Boulez conducting and the sound quality.


Thanks Granate. Didn't proofread my own very brief post! 1966 is what I meant to say.


----------



## zxxyxxz

Granate said:


> I'm also eager to get the Walküre and Siegfried from that year. Theo Adam is in his absolute best in the 1965 Rheingold and has now replaced my Philips recording from 1966.
> 
> Million thanks zxxyxxz.


I just share what I like and the qualities I hear in it.

What's really annoying is I bought a few recordings from operadepot a few days ago and then announced a sale a day later. This always happens to me...


----------



## annaw

Barbebleu said:


> It's very good and has the benefit of being a proper cycle and not a hybrid like the '66/'67.





zxxyxxz said:


> QUOTE=annaw;1913973]
> Well there are a few minor cast changes, you get Josef Griendl as the wanderer in 1965!
> 
> The sound quality is obviously not quite as good but I personally find the recording less tiring than the eloquence remaster. For me they feel more life like and exciting.
> 
> The Siegfried in 65 is my favourite, high octane swashbuckling fun which is how I want it!
> 
> Windgassen to me is more lighter of voice than his 50's outings and I prefer it as I think he sounds wonderfully youthful (considering he just turned 51 thats one hell of an achievement.)


Now I have a new problem. Boulez 1976 or Böhm 1965. Making decisions is so difficult :lol:.


----------



## zxxyxxz

Why not both?


----------



## MAS

zxxyxxz said:


> Why not both?


That's what I do when I can't decide! :lol:


----------



## Barbebleu

And you can always get the complete Böhm 1966 cycle too. Around $42. Different versions I believe from the ones used in the Phillips hybrid.


----------



## nospoonboy

annaw said:


> Now I have a new problem. Boulez 1976 or Böhm 1965. Making decisions is so difficult :lol:.


I have both from OD and while I LOVE Böhm, there is something special about the Boulez '76. Being that this was the premiere of this production there is an energy (you also get some audience boos at points). I feel both are worth having.


----------



## HoDiadochus

I picked up the Bodanzky '37 Siegfried (with Melchior, Flagstad, and Schorr) after seeing it somewhere in here, and I have to say Melchior and Flagstad are unbeatable. But I wonder what all the fuss about Schorr is about. He sounds so light to my ears! I mean compared to Wotans like Hotter and London.

Was that just the style of doing Wotan/the Wanderer at the time? I'm not fully familiar with some of these older recordings. I ask because I have heard Schorr praised to the heavens in various places. I'm aware that he was better earlier in his career. But any historical insight into the size and heaviness of the portrayals of Wotan over time would have me extremely appreciative. For instance, more recent Wotans also sound lighter to me compared with mid-century portrayals. I guess these things ebb and flow.

(Pardon me if something of this sort was asked in this thread, I did do a search for some keywords and read a little.)


----------



## Gondowe

I finally received The Ring of La Scala in SWF edition and it sounds extraordinary. Anyway, his work focuses more on making a cleaner mono sound without losing dynamics. The only way I can compare it with the Pristine edition is through the samples they offer on their website and it must be recognized that the difference is more focused on its Ambient Stereo that I notice more if I listen to it with headphones. But listening to it with speakers the difference is greatly reduced. We have to bear in mind that it costs only € 20 in the SWF. I can say the same about the Meistersinger, the sound is great and the only comparison we have in the Chibas edition. Here in my opinion the difference is non-existent, even in favor of the SWF edition, and only € 12. 

One question, if you download any work by Wagner, in fact any opera from Pristine's website, I understand that it is downloaded by tracks, right? I say this because for me it would be better if it were for acts so that there are no small pauses between tracks when listening to them.

Greetings


----------



## Granate

Gondowe said:


> One question, if you download any work by Wagner, in fact any opera from Pristine's website, I understand that it is downloaded by tracks, right? I say this because for me it would be better if it were for acts so that there are no small pauses between tracks when listening to them.


That should have to do with your music player. In fact, it's much easier to correct the gapping between tracks in opera and symphonies when these are digital files than when they are cds.


----------



## Gondowe

I dont understand how can I do it. In a CD there's no gap between tracks. Never. 
And presisely in operas is disturbing when you listen one in mp3 or flac files per track, not in complete acts. I mean in an CD/SACD/MP3/FLAC/DSD player connected to an amplifier.


----------



## Eramire156

If your using iTunes the link below shows how to get rid of those gaps

https://instructormusic.com/set-gapless-playback-itunes/

Hope this helps.


----------



## Gondowe

No. I dont use iTunes. I mean transferred to an USB memory and playing in an external player. But thanks.
Anyway I understand that my main question is asked saying that the downloadad files from Pristine are track by track.


----------



## DarkAngel

Gondowe said:


> *I finally received The 1950 Ring of La Scala in SWF edition and it sounds extraordinary*. Anyway, his work focuses more on making a cleaner mono sound without losing dynamics. The only way I can compare it with the Pristine edition is through the samples they offer on their website and it must be recognized that the difference is more focused on its Ambient Stereo that I notice more if I listen to it with headphones. But listening to it with speakers the difference is greatly reduced. We have to bear in mind that it costs only € 20 in the SWF. I can say the same about the Meistersinger, the sound is great and the only comparison we have in the Chibas edition. Here in my opinion the difference is non-existent, even in favor of the SWF edition, and only € 12.
> 
> One question, if you download any work by Wagner, in fact any opera from Pristine's website, I understand that it is downloaded by tracks, right? I say this because for me it would be better if it were for acts so that there are no small pauses between tracks when listening to them.
> 
> Greetings


https://furtwangler.fr/en/produit/swf-111-24/

Checked the sample at SWF (society wilhelm furtwangler) and it seems noticeably brighter than Pristine XR and a bit less detailed in mids/bass especially under full orchestra and choral passages, the cost is definitely much cheaper than buying from Pristine XR, best option for avid historical fans is to subscribe to HD pristine streaming and save money vs buying

I think the Chibas samples for 50 Ring sound slightly better overall vs SWF if you are trying to save money for music purchases  (samples are not HD quality here)

http://furtwanglersound.com/recordings/wagner/


----------



## adriesba

DarkAngel said:


> https://furtwangler.fr/en/produit/swf-111-24/
> 
> Checked the sample at SWF (society wilhelm furtwangler) and it seems noticeably brighter than Pristine XR and a bit less detailed in mids/bass especially under full orchestra and choral passages, the cost is definitely much cheaper than buying from Pristine XR, best option for avid historical fans is to subscribe to HD pristine streaming and save money vs buying
> 
> I think the Chibas samples sound slightly better overall vs SWF if you are trying to save money for music purchases


I had no idea that there was a Society Wilhelm Furtwängler!


----------



## DarkAngel

DarkAngel said:


> I think the Chibas samples for 50 Ring sound slightly better overall vs SWF if you are trying to save money for music purchases  (samples are not HD quality here)
> 
> http://furtwanglersound.com/recordings/wagner/


Checking the Chibas offerings he may have the best sounding 43 Bayreuth Meistersinger (Furtwangler), not many versions available and can't recall hearing any sound better than this...........

Also somewhere I mentioned this before the Furtwangler Bruckner remasters are probably even better then the Wagner offerings, Chibas is still an active conductor in Venezuela and has a few modern CD recordings on Amazon USA (mostly Bruckner)


----------



## Gondowe

DarkAngel said:


> https://furtwangler.fr/en/produit/swf-111-24/
> 
> Checked the sample at SWF (society wilhelm furtwangler) and it seems noticeably brighter than Pristine XR and a bit less detailed in mids/bass especially under full orchestra and choral passages, the cost is definitely much cheaper than buying from Pristine XR, best option for avid historical fans is to subscribe to HD pristine streaming and save money vs buying
> 
> I think the Chibas samples for 50 Ring sound slightly better overall vs SWF if you are trying to save money for music purchases  (samples are not HD quality here)
> 
> http://furtwanglersound.com/recordings/wagner/


I think the price through the SWF (obviously if you are a member) is devastating. I have been a partner for two years and I benefit from their prices by acquiring many CDs to complete my Furtwangler collection. Another thing is the Ring of Rome. Of which we would have the possibility of Pristine. Given the difficulty of obtaining SACD from Japan. By price (even more expensive) and by market.


----------



## Itullian

No one seems to ever mention this one.
It's good and it's stereo.
Live from Bayreuth 1968.
It feels like you're right there in the audience.


----------



## Granate

One of the best recordings ever made. It should have been the one featuring in the Philips set, as I always say.

I still have other choices that I prefer more than this, especially because Kmett and G. Jones tour de force at Walther and Eva is just too much _tour de force._ I had read in Opera Depot that they sung like gods. I figured it meant, for better and worse, like Siegfried and Brünnhilde.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> No one seems to ever mention this one.
> It's good and it's stereo.
> Live from Bayreuth 1968.
> It feels like you're right there in the audience.


OMG didn't realize that Eva is a very young Gwyneth Jones who famously went on to assume the starring lead roles at Bayreuth in the mid/late 1970s, but in 1968 she was singing standard rep stuff and her Verdi recordings from this period are extremely impressive, what a voice back then......

















Theo Adam (sachs) seems to be Karl Bohm's go to singer at Bayreuth at that time, and of course appears on the famous composite recording of Bohm Ring


----------



## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> No one seems to ever mention this one.
> It's good and it's stereo.
> Live from Bayreuth 1968.
> It feels like you're right there in the audience.


Thanks Itullian. I have this in my unlistened to pile. I've just finished the '74 Salzburg Meistersinger so I'll make the '68 Bayreuth my next Meistersinger.


----------



## Itullian

Couldn't resist.


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> Couldn't resist.


I have the cheaper Myto version, interesting to hear younger 1958 pair of Windgassen/Nilsson compared to famous 1966 recording also at Bayreuth with Bohm. I will trade you the Myto for your Orfeo (best sound and packaging)


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> I have the cheaper Myto version, interesting to hear younger 1958 pair of Windgassen/Nilsson compared to famous 1966 recording also at Bayreuth with Bohm. I will trade you the Myto for your Orfeo (best sound and packaging)


I got the Orfeo because each act is on its own disc, 
Is the Myto that way too?


----------



## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> I got the Orfeo because each act is on its own disc,
> Is the Myto that way too?


NO....4 CD Myto set and every CD has split tracks from two acts 

There is a large bonus added to 4th CD with 16 tracks from 57 Tristan Bayreuth also with Windgassen/Nilsson, forgot about that so I am keeping this


----------



## Itullian

DarkAngel said:


> NO....4 CD Myto set and every CD has split tracks from two acts
> 
> There is a large bonus added to 4th CD with 16 tracks from 57 Tristan Bayreuth also with Windgassen/Nilsson, forgot about that so I am keeping this


You know me. I need complete acts to make me happy. 

I'm still mad at Orfeo for putting the last minutes of the Karajan 1st act on the second disc. :scold:


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## DarkAngel

next post please


----------



## Ulfilas

DarkAngel said:


> Correction Theo Adam in 68 was singing the role of Walther (not sachs that came later) and I was just listening to his prize song, wonderful lyric voice and his line "eva in paradise" is sung with great romantic feeling (many singers suprisingly don't) so I am going to put this on my buy list and young Miss Jones a big plus for me......stereo sound and nice Orfeo package


Theo Adam is singing Walther!? I believe you'll find that's the very fine Waldemar Kmentt.

Tenors don't magically turn into bass-baritones...


----------



## DarkAngel

^^^^ My bad I was right the first time, ignore the post (but still buy this meister)


----------



## Ulfilas

DarkAngel said:


> ^^^^ My bad I was right the first time, ignore the post (but still buy this meister)


All good, I figured it was a typo!

I will definitely check it out.


----------



## zxxyxxz

DarkAngel said:


> I have the cheaper Myto version, interesting to hear younger 1958 pair of Windgassen/Nilsson compared to famous 1966 recording also at Bayreuth with Bohm. I will trade you the Myto for your Orfeo (best sound and packaging)


I love the 58, my only problem with the Orfeo is the cover. I much prefer the Myto


----------



## adriesba

I was pleasantly surprised recently to see that Opera Depot has just put out a recording of _Tannhäuser_ with Elisabeth Grümmer as Elisabeth. Until then I had thought the only recording of her as Elisabeth was the Konwitschny recording.


----------



## The Conte

OK, historical Wagnerphiles. What's your favourite Melchior Tannhauser? I have the Bodanzky from 1936, but I wonder if others have a preference for a different performance of his in the role. Perhaps with a different conductor, Elizabeth or Venus (Halstead is the weakness in the '36 performance).

N.


----------



## annaw

The Conte said:


> OK, historical Wagnerphiles. What's your favourite Melchior Tannhauser? I have the Bodanzky from 1936, but I wonder if others have a preference for a different performance of his in the role. Perhaps with a different conductor, Elizabeth or Venus (Halstead is the weakness in the '36 performance.
> 
> N.


Might be a very "unprofessional" advice as I've only listened to one Melchior Tannhäuser  but I've loved it - Leinsdorf's 1941 Met recording. I personally really love Flagstad's Elisabeth, although her voice was arguably a bit too huge for such role. Melchior is a trumpet like usually and Thorborg is a perfectly fine Venus, although not as sensuous as, say, Ludwig.


----------



## The Conte

annaw said:


> Might be a very "unprofessional" advice as I've only listened to one Melchior Tannhäuser  but I've loved it - Leinsdorf's 1941 Met recording. I personally really love Flagstad's Elisabeth, although her voice was arguably a bit too huge for such role. Melchior is a trumpet like usually and Thorborg is a perfectly fine Venus, although not as sensuous as, say, Ludwig.


That does seem to be the one to go for, however Flagstad is also in the '36 and the '42 has Traubel and Kipnis. (Traubel is an unknown quantity for me and you don't get a Tannhauser for the Landgraf!)

N.


----------



## annaw

The Conte said:


> That does seem to be the one to go for, however Flagstad is also in the '36 and the '42 has Traubel and Kipnis. (Traubel is an unknown quantity for me and you don't get a Tannhauser for the Landgraf!)
> 
> N.


Now you get me very interested to hear '36. Isn't the '42 one of those frustrating Met recordings where most of the star cast is already past their primes? It was certainly late for Kipnis and Traubel. (I guess that Kipnis even past his prime was still great, though.)


----------



## The Conte

annaw said:


> Now you get me very interested to hear '36. Isn't the '42 one of those frustrating Met recordings where most of the star cast is already past their primes? It was certainly late for Kipnis and Traubel. (I guess that Kipnis even past his prime was still great, though.)


I'm not sure about Traubel, but I'm surprised to find out after looking at Wikipedia that Kipnis was considered in vocal decline in the 40s and he retired in '46 (he didn't debut at the Met until 1940, so all his Met broadcasts were made when he supposedly was in decline!) He recorded Russian arias and scenes for RCA in 1945 and I've never sensed him being under par there.

N.


----------



## DarkAngel

The Conte said:


> OK, historical Wagnerphiles. What's your favourite Melchior Tannhauser? I have the Bodanzky from 1936, but I wonder if others have a preference for a different performance of his in the role. Perhaps with a different conductor, Elizabeth or Venus (Halstead is the weakness in the '36 performance).
> 
> N.


Pristine XR 41 Tannhauser has great sound and the cast is typical war years MET (best wagner singers in the world) this is pretty much essential for wagner collectors, also remember much cheaper to subscribe to streaming Pristine HD than purchase

















Fanfare magazine review: (40 Walkure)



> "Sony and the Met, in their set Wagner at the Met, issued this same performance, and one might wonder why Pristine would bother. After all, the resources of the Metropolitan Opera Company and Sony should permit the transfer to be as good as technology is capable of. And indeed I have enjoyed that edition for the year or so that I have owned it. I am sure Sony and the Met did the best they could with what they had, but Andrew Rose of Pristine was given a different source (he is discreet and doesn't indicate from whom), a set of transfers on a completely different plane from the Sony release, not to mention inferior earlier issues...
> An A-B comparison of this with the Sony set is shocking. The difference is not subtle. The Sony set sounds like a 1940 AM broadcast. This sounds like a professional studio commercial recording from 1940, and a good one at that. Pristine's XR stereo remastering gives a sense of the space of the Met, and the result is thrilling in a way one never thought this performance would be."


----------



## The Conte

DarkAngel said:


> I think you have the MET wagner boxset which has 41 Tannahuser (radio broadcast) but only OK sound, Pristine XR is far better sound and the cast is typical war years MET (best wagner singers in the world) this is pretty much essential for wagner collectors, also remember much cheaper to subscribe to streaming Pristine HD than purchase
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fanfare magazine review:


No. The Tannhauser in the 'Wagner at the Met' box set _doesn't_ have Melchior in. (It's an oddity, why have a Lohengrin, Tristan and Ring with him, but no Tannhauser?) - Mind you, the Verdi box set only has one Price recording and no Corelli!

The Tannhauser is the 1954 Szell with Vinay, Harshaw, Varnay, London and Hines. (A good recording it is too.) That then raises the question, who said that the Sony box set recording was the same as the Pristine and how did they not realise that they aren't the same recording whilst listening?

I have the Immortal Performances hybrid of the Bodanzsky 1936 and the 1941 Leinsdorf (in that Thorborg is spliced in from the latter). Not something I would have choosen, but Tibbett's Wolfram is essential.

I wonder whether I should get a second set, the '41 is considered better than the '42, but the '42 has a more varied cast.

I'm also wondering whether to get a second Lohengrin (and I will probably get one of the releases on Immortal Performances that isn't a hybrid).

N.


----------



## wkasimer

The Conte said:


> I'm surprised to find out after looking at Wikipedia that Kipnis was considered in vocal decline in the 40s and he retired in '46 (he didn't debut at the Met until 1940, so all his Met broadcasts were made when he supposedly was in decline!) He recorded Russian arias and scenes for RCA in 1945 and I've never sensed him being under par there.


Kipnis' voice held up pretty well, but after about 1940 he had trouble singing in tune, and found that distressing enough that he called it quits. And I think that you can hear those intonational problem on his late recordings.


----------



## DarkAngel

> The Tannhauser is the 1954 Szell with Vinay, Harshaw, Varnay, London and Hines. (A good recording it is too.) That then raises the question, who said that the Sony box set recording was the same as the Pristine and how did they not realise that they aren't the same recording whilst listening?


I see the confusion now, Pristine XR and MET wagner boxset have the same *40 Walkure recording* but the comments for that appear under the 41 Tannhauser recording at Pristine website, regardless it is a great Tannhauser in great sound, captures Flagstad right before she leaves USA to return to Norway for war years.....


----------



## adriesba

DarkAngel said:


> I see the confusion now, Pristine XR and MET wagner boxset have the same *40 Walkure recording* but the comments for that appear under the 41 Tannhauser recording at Pristine website, regardless it is a great Tannhauser in great sound, captures Flagstad right before she leaves USA to return to Norway for war years.....


Thank you! I was getting really confused. So then what source did Pristine actually use for the _Tannhäuser_?


----------



## DarkAngel

> I wonder whether I should get a second set, the '41 is considered better than the '42, but the '42 has a more varied cast.


42 MET Tannhauser - Flagstad replaced by Traubel, List replaced by Kipnis, conductor Leinsdorf replaced by Szell












> So then what source did Pristine actually use for the 41 _Tannhäuser?_


Comments by Andrew Rose:

_Originally recorded onto 33rpm acetate discs, they have preserved with often amazing quality this legendary recording which, after XR remastering, offers unparallelled sound quality often quite above and beyond anyone one might expect from a live stage performance of this era._


----------



## Itullian

Fabulous!!! Great full bodied sound, a young Nilsson and Windgassen belting it out.
Griendl an excellent King Marke and Hoffman a good Brangane.

No interrupted acts, each act on its own disc.
A winner.


----------



## zxxyxxz

Itullian said:


> Fabulous!!! Great full bodied sound, a young Nilsson and Windgassen belting it out.
> Griendl an excellent King Marks and Hoffman a good Brangane.
> 
> No interrupted acts, each act on its own disc.
> A winner.


Its my all time favourite Tristan recording. I love hearing that other people like it as well.


----------



## adriesba

Anyone have this recording? Is it Paris or Dresden, and how is the sound?


----------



## Barbebleu

Its not Paris or Dresden. It’s New York. It says so on the cover!:lol::lol::lol:

Another one I might have to hunt down!:tiphat:


----------



## silentio

Opera Depot is having a Wagner Sale. I am in the mood for Wagner, thus considering getting some. 

Would you recommend any Wagner performances that can be found exclusively in Opera Depot or are in much better conditions than in other labels?


----------



## adriesba

silentio said:


> Opera Depot is having a Wagner Sale. I am in the mood for Wagner, thus considering getting some.
> 
> Would you recommend any Wagner performances that can be found exclusively in Opera Depot or are in much better conditions than in other labels?


There is so much on Opera Depot that I'm not familiar with everything they have, but I will mention a few things that look interesting to me.

There are several recordings of _Tannhäuser _that are only available from Opera Depot, though I couldn't point out every single one off the top of my head. The latest one with Elisabeth Grümmer looks enticing. There are also some with Jess Thomas that I don't think are anywhere else. There is also one that strangely has Montserrat Caballé.

Any Wagner recording with Ursula Schröder-Feinen is probably only on Opera Depot. These include two _Rings_, a _Die Walküre_, two _Lohengrins_, a _Parsifal_, and a _Tristan und Isolde_.

There is a recording of Acts II and III of _Der fliegende Holländer_ with Birgit Nilsson (I think the only recording of the opera with her), but apparently the sound is bad.

If someone else doesn't re-release the Kubelik _Meistersinger _Opera Depot may soon be the only place to get that.

They are also one of the few places where you can still get the Downes _Rienzi_, but judging from the sample, they apparently did not have a very good source for it.


----------



## annaw

silentio said:


> Opera Depot is having a Wagner Sale. I am in the mood for Wagner, thus considering getting some.
> 
> Would you recommend any Wagner performances that can be found exclusively in Opera Depot or are in much better conditions than in other labels?


Opera Depot is probably the best place to buy commercially unavailable 70s Bayreuth recordings. For example, Boulez's and Horst Stein's _Ring_s, Boulez's _Parsifal_s, Horst Stein's 1976 _Parsifal_ (with Vickers!). Also, there's Karajan's 1976 Salzburg _Lohengrin_ recording with the same main cast as his commercial release but it's been highly praised (IIRC Granate really likes it?). I haven't heard them all myself but I recall they've been recommended by others.


----------



## zxxyxxz

silentio said:


> Opera Depot is having a Wagner Sale. I am in the mood for Wagner, thus considering getting some.
> 
> Would you recommend any Wagner performances that can be found exclusively in Opera Depot or are in much better conditions than in other labels?


I would recommend the following:

Das Rheingold Böhm 1965
Siegfried Böhm 1965
Götterdammerung Maazel 1968


----------



## silentio

adriesba said:


> There is so much on Opera Depot that I'm not familiar with everything they have, but I will mention a few things that look interesting to me.
> 
> There are several recordings of _Tannhäuser _that are only available from Opera Depot, though I couldn't point out every single one off the top of my head. The latest one with Elisabeth Grümmer looks enticing. There are also some with Jess Thomas that I don't think are anywhere else. There is also one that strangely has Montserrat Caballé.
> 
> Any Wagner recording with Ursula Schröder-Feinen is probably only on Opera Depot. These include two _Rings_, a _Die Walküre_, two _Lohengrins_, a _Parsifal_, and a _Tristan und Isolde_.
> 
> There is a recording of Acts II and III of _Der fliegende Holländer_ with Birgit Nilsson (I think the only recording of the opera with her), but apparently the sound is bad.
> 
> If someone else doesn't re-release the Kubelik _Meistersinger _Opera Depot may soon be the only place to get that.
> 
> They are also one of the few places where you can still get the Downes _Rienzi_, but judging from the sample, they apparently did not have a very good source for it.


The _Meistersinger _sounds tempting. I will probably get it.

I also getting the _Der fliegende Holländer_ in Italian with Virginia Zeani. I know this is a weird thing but I have a soft spot for Wagner in other languages


----------



## Barbebleu

zxxyxxz said:


> I would recommend the following:
> 
> Das Rheingold Böhm 1965
> Siegfried Böhm 1965
> Götterdammerung Maazel 1968


Karajan's Salzburg Ring from the late 60's/early 70's is worth a listen.


----------



## Itullian

Just purchased this. Borderline historical?


----------



## adriesba

Itullian said:


> Just purchased this. Borderline historical?


Well, Silja and Bumbry are still alive, so it's probably not quite historical, but it is notable. Let us know what you think of the performance.


----------



## The Conte

adriesba said:


> Well, Silja and Bumbry are still alive, so it's probably not quite historical, but it is notable. Let us know what you think of the performance.


Yes, also, how does it compare to the earlier Sawallisch with Fischer-Dieskau and De los Angeles?

N.


----------



## wkasimer

The Conte said:


> Yes, also, how does it compare to the earlier Sawallisch with Fischer-Dieskau and De los Angeles?


This 1962 commercial release has much better sound, but I think that the 1961 performance is better, largely due to the change in soloists.


----------



## damianjb1

I listened to this recently. I thought it was fantastic. Gertrude Grob-Prandl is astounding.


----------



## Barbebleu

damianjb1 said:


> View attachment 145691
> 
> 
> I listened to this recently. I thought it was fantastic. Gertrude Grob-Prandl is astounding.


Pretty good for a recording over seventy years old!


----------



## damianjb1

Barbebleu said:


> Pretty good for a recording over seventy years old!


Wow - I hadn't done the math.
I don't know why but I find it incredibly moving to listen to a live performance from decades ago, exactly as the audience heard it all those years ago. 
And all of the singers are no longer with us. 
It gets me every time.


----------



## Itullian

Great


----------



## The Conte

Is anyone familiar with the 1976 Horst Stein Tristan with Vickers and Nilsson. It's difficult to track down, but is it as bad as some say?

Which is Vickers' best Tristan?

N.


----------



## Barbebleu

The Conte said:


> Is anyone familiar with the 1976 Horst Stein Tristan with Vickers and Nilsson. It's difficult to track down, but is it as bad as some say?
> 
> Which is Vickers' best Tristan?
> 
> N.


I think Opera Depot have this.


----------



## The Conte

Barbebleu said:


> I think Opera Depot have this.


They do (Myto also brought it out, but you can only get used copies now). Ralph Moore pans the recording in his reviews and says both Nilsson and Vickers aren't on form and the sound isn't great. (The sample on Opera Depot sounds pretty good, but that's just five minutes out of a long opera.) I don't collect countless versions of the same opera and so I'm only interested if it is an outright plum.

I was hoping someone here would know the recording or be able to advise on the best Vickers Tristan. (I'm not a fan of the Karajan studio recording.)

N.


----------



## Rangstrom

The Conte said:


> They do (Myto also brought it out, but you can only get used copies now). Ralph Moore pans the recording in his reviews and says both Nilsson and Vickers aren't on form and the sound isn't great. (The sample on Opera Depot sounds pretty good, but that's just five minutes out of a long opera.) I don't collect countless versions of the same opera and so I'm only interested if it is an outright plum.
> 
> I was hoping someone here would know the recording or be able to advise on the best Vickers Tristan. (I'm not a fan of the Karajan studio recording.)
> 
> N.


Best Vicker's Tristan? For me it is the Vickers/Nilsson/Böhm Orange recording. The sound of the DVD is rough, but the Sony box set Nilsson Great Live Recordings improved the sound wonderfully. The whole set is not cheap, but well worth it. I think at one time you could purchase individual performances by download.


----------



## adriesba

The Conte said:


> They do (Myto also brought it out, but you can only get used copies now). Ralph Moore pans the recording in his reviews and says both Nilsson and Vickers aren't on form and the sound isn't great. (The sample on Opera Depot sounds pretty good, but that's just five minutes out of a long opera.) I don't collect countless versions of the same opera and so I'm only interested if it is an outright plum.
> 
> I was hoping someone here would know the recording or be able to advise on the best Vickers Tristan. (I'm not a fan of the Karajan studio recording.)
> 
> N.


Just curious, what do you not like about the Karajan studio recording?


----------



## The Conte

adriesba said:


> Just curious, what do you not like about the Karajan studio recording?


Great question! I don't like the soundscape. I find many of Karajan's 70s recordings to have an echoey nature to them and both voices and orchestra sound recessed (it's something that mars his Aida and Don Carlo from the same period).

The second thing I don't like is Dernesch's Isolde. I don't think her voice was ever big enough for the role and she lacks legato, chopping up the phrases and pecking at them like a bird. I also find Karajan focuses on the aesthetic side of the work at the expense of the dramatic. (It's the opposite of his approach in his live 1952 recording.)

N.


----------



## Itullian

adriesba said:


> Well, Silja and Bumbry are still alive, so it's probably not quite historical, but it is notable. Let us know what you think of the performance.












Great sound, great singing, great playing.
Sawallisch uses the extension of the overture from the Paris version but then when the singing starts reverts back to the Dresden version. i think this works well.
In short excellent, i love it.
It's Bayreuth


----------



## Handelian

silentio said:


> Opera Depot is having a Wagner Sale. I am in the mood for Wagner, thus considering getting some.
> 
> Would you recommend any Wagner performances that can be found exclusively in Opera Depot or are in much better conditions than in other labels?


You can get some Wagner at almost giveaway prices on E Bay


----------



## annaw

The Conte said:


> Great question! I don't like the soundscape. I find many of Karajan's 70s recordings to have an echoey nature to them and both voices and orchestra sound recessed (it's something that mars his Aida and Don Carlo from the same period).
> 
> The second thing I don't like is Dernesch's Isolde. I don't think her voice was ever big enough for the role and she lacks legato, chopping up the phrases and pecking at them like a bird. I also find Karajan focuses on the aesthetic side of the work at the expense of the dramatic. (*It's the opposite of his approach in his live 1952 recording.*)
> 
> N.


That's a great one! I recall reading that Karajan said that conducting that performance was such an effort that he nearly had to be carried out on a stretcher afterwards. I'm not sure if that anecdote is true but I wouldn't be surprised if it is. Probably my second favourite recording of _Tristan_ after Furtwängler's wondrous account.


----------



## adriesba

The Conte said:


> Great question! I don't like the soundscape. I find many of Karajan's 70s recordings to have an echoey nature to them and both voices and orchestra sound recessed (it's something that mars his Aida and Don Carlo from the same period).
> 
> The second thing I don't like is Dernesch's Isolde. I don't think her voice was ever big enough for the role and she lacks legato, chopping up the phrases and pecking at them like a bird. I also find Karajan focuses on the aesthetic side of the work at the expense of the dramatic. (It's the opposite of his approach in his live 1952 recording.)
> 
> N.


Understandable. Dernesch wouldn't be my first choice for Isolde, but I find her satisfying enough. Karajan's conducting is one of the reasons I like the recording. The way he conducts the live duet for example I find just perfect. I think he brings out a lot of the beauties of the score. But yes, it's probably not as energetic as some other ones. As far as the recording being echoey, I haven't noticed it, but I could be used to it. Just to be sure, did you hear the second remastering? Supposedly EMI's first CD release sounds bad.


----------



## adriesba

Rangstrom said:


> Best Vicker's Tristan? For me it is the Vickers/Nilsson/Böhm Orange recording. The sound of the DVD is rough, but the Sony box set Nilsson Great Live Recordings improved the sound wonderfully. The whole set is not cheap, but well worth it. I think at one time you could purchase individual performances by download.


The Nilsson live set releases are on streaming. The Böhm Orange performance from that set definitely at least sounds better than the video on YouTube. The new sound is really clear. It was recorded outside, so the acoustic is not that great, but it's definitely something to listen to for Nilsson and Vickers.


----------



## The Conte

adriesba said:


> Understandable. Dernesch wouldn't be my first choice for Isolde, but I find her satisfying enough. Karajan's conducting is one of the reasons I like the recording. The way he conducts the live duet for example I find just perfect. I think he brings out a lot of the beauties of the score. But yes, it's probably not as energetic as some other ones. As far as the recording being echoey, I haven't noticed it, but I could be used to it. Just to be sure, did you hear the second remastering? Supposedly EMI's first CD release sounds bad.


I have listened to the latest remaster, but only once. I actually have excerpts from it on a Vickers compilation set. Echoey might be ungenerous. It suffers from the same type of sound as the Karajan Don Carlo and his second Aida, all three have an overly spacious acoustic and both voices and orchestra are somewhat recessed.

N.


----------



## The Conte

adriesba said:


> The Nilsson live set releases are on streaming. The Böhm Orange performance from that set definitely at least sounds better than the video on YouTube. The new sound is really clear. It was recorded outside, so the acoustic is not that great, but it's definitely something to listen to for Nilsson and Vickers.


Thanks for this. Unfortunately I would like a recording on CD and I don't want the complete live Nilsson set as the Tristan would be the only recording of interest for me. I might get a copy of the Stein Tristan second hand and give it a try. I will probably end up selling it, but it seems to be the only way to listen to it to find out for myself if it was an off night for them.

N.


----------



## adriesba

The Conte said:


> Thanks for this. Unfortunately I would like a recording on CD and I don't want the complete live Nilsson set as the Tristan would be the only recording of interest for me. I might get a copy of the Stein Tristan second hand and give it a try. I will probably end up selling it, but it seems to be the only way to listen to it to find out for myself if it was an off night for them.
> 
> N.


Just found out that it's on YouTube: 




Edit: I see you were wondering about the 1976 performance. The one on YouTube is from 1971. I didn't realize there are two with Nilsson and Vickers conducted by Stein.


----------



## The Conte

adriesba said:


> Just found out that it's on YouTube:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: I see you were wondering about the 1976 performance. The one on YouTube is from 1971. I didn't realize there are two with Nilsson and Vickers conducted by Stein.


The 1971 is cut and the sound isn't great. It looks like there isn't a wonderful, definitive Vickers/Nilsson and there is something problematic with all the Vickers' versions. I will perhaps content myself with the excerpts from the studio version I have.

N.


----------



## silentio

I just came across this historical _Todesverkündigung_. Siegmund is sung by Gotthelf Pistor (who is also the Parsifal in the famous excerpts with Karl Muck), and Brunnhilde is by Margarete Bäumer. I gather that both were among the leading singers of their era but are largely forgotten today. What beautiful and cleanly focused singing (especially if we compare them to today's horrific Wagnerian "specialists"). The dictions are also remarkably clear; I can hear the words even with my broken German.


----------



## 5mai

Yes, nice singing silentio. Baumer was one of the many fine German Wagnerian sopranos of that era, although she was still singing up to 1960. Pistor I have always admired. He sounds a bit like a German Aureliano Pertile in my opinion. These two tenors have a very deliberate way with their enunciation and phrasing, making the words just as important as the music I think.


----------



## DarkAngel

silentio said:


> I just came across this historical _Todesverkündigung_. Siegmund is sung by Gotthelf Pistor (who is also the Parsifal in the famous excerpts with Karl Muck), and Brunnhilde is by Margarete Bäumer. I gather that both were among the leading singers of their era but are largely forgotten today. What beautiful and cleanly focused singing (especially if we compare them to today's horrific Wagnerian "specialists"). The dictions are also remarkably clear; I can hear the words even with my broken German.


Very nice indeed, requires 4 record changes (78rpm discs) just to play that segment, I am amazed at where did this person find all those great antique performance pix of two rather obscure singers, perhaps he has keys to Bayreuth historical archives


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## vivalagentenuova

It's not so obscure a recording. The YT poster probably got it from the Preiser LP or CD.


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## silentio

Another historical _Todesverkündigung_ recorded much earlier (1910). The Siegmund is Jacques Urlus, who needs no introduction. The Brunnhilde, Melanie Kurt, is new to me, but I have been listening to her recordings (from the label Lebendige Vergangenheit, also available on YouTube) and thoroughly impressed.






Here is her superb Kundry. Just love the legato. She is quite a singing actress too.


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## Barbebleu

Opera Depot are offering the ‘57 Bayreuth Ring at a good price. Anyone heard it? Comments?


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## wkasimer

Barbebleu said:


> Opera Depot are offering the '57 Bayreuth Ring at a good price. Anyone heard it? Comments?


The Siegfried in 1957 is a disaster due to Bernd Aldenhoff in the title role, and Paul Kuen's usual caterwauling.


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## Barbebleu

Ah yes. Paul “Mr. Approximate “ Kuen. 

I realised after I posted that I already have this cycle and have actually listened to it as well! Yikes!
Clearly not one of my memorable Ring cycles. In my defence I do have 53 of the blessed things and I hadn’t consulted my database.


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## Music Snob

wkasimer said:


> The Siegfried in 1957 is a disaster due to Bernd Aldenhoff in the title role, and Paul Kuen's usual caterwauling.





Barbebleu said:


> Opera Depot are offering the '57 Bayreuth Ring at a good price. Anyone heard it? Comments?


I have it and am greatly pleased with it. The sound quality is much brighter than the years 56 and 58. Götterdämmerung has Birgit Nilsson as one of the Norns and she sings Sieglunde in Walküre.

wkasimer is right about the Siegfried... it is a shame. I would not let it hold you back though.

Try getting the Walhall issues online and it will cost you an arm and a leg.


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## wkasimer

Music Snob said:


> Try getting the Walhall issues online and it will cost you an arm and a leg.


Actually, the first three operas aren't that hard to find - in fact, they're all currently available at Berkshire Record Outlet online. But for some reason, the Gotterdammerung from that cycle is exceedingly hard to find.


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## Granate

Barbebleu said:


> Opera Depot are offering the '57 Bayreuth Ring at a good price. Anyone heard it? Comments?


I have no idea if I want to buy the _Götterdämmerung_ in FLAC quality. At least I'll wait until the 50% sales instead of 40%. That's the only one I'm missing and I'm sure that Varnay sings her best GDR Brünnhilde in any mono recording, second to Keilberth 52 and Konwitschny 59. Spotify premium is so far enough for me. No interruptions and optimal mono quality.

I'm really worried that all the new Archipel releases, such as some recordings by Scherchen or the _Parsifal_ with an early Martha Mödl as Kundry, are only being released in digital.


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## adriesba

So what other labels have released the '57 Knappertsbusch _Ring_? Is the sound quality any different from Opera Depot's release?


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## Music Snob

This is the first historical Wagner recording that I find almost unlistenable. It seems to me that on that night Kna took the music so fast because the singers weren't up for the task. /s Seriously though, I really could not bear the singing of Braun and Treptow. Maybe after listening again it might change.


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## wkasimer

adriesba said:


> So what other labels have released the '57 Knappertsbusch _Ring_? Is the sound quality any different from Opera Depot's release?


It's been issued by both Music & Arts and Walhall.


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## wkasimer

Music Snob said:


> View attachment 149402
> 
> 
> This is the first historical Wagner recording that I find almost unlistenable. It seems to me that on that night Kna took the music so fast because the singers weren't up for the task. /s Seriously though, I really could not bear the singing of Braun and Treptow. Maybe after listening again it might change.


Maybe not. This is one of those recordings that gets lots of rave reviews, but I just don't get it...


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## Music Snob

I have some questions for you all-








Is there a complete Thomas Beecham 1937 Tristan? Or are the available releases on the market the hybrids with Fritz Reiner conducting in 1936?

















Does anyone have any opinions on the 1935 and/or the 1937 Bodanzky Tristans?


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## wkasimer

Music Snob said:


> I have some questions for you all-
> 
> View attachment 149407
> 
> Is there a complete Thomas Beecham 1937 Tristan? Or are the available releases on the market the hybrids with Fritz Reiner conducting in 1936?


The only "hybrid" is the EMI recording, and that was accidental.

I believe that Immortal Performances sells an all-Beecham Tristan:


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## The Conte

The sound may not be as good as the earlier ones, but I prefer the 1941 Leinsdorf recording. The Reiner is the one in the best sound and is a good representation of Flagstad's Isolde in her prime, although I find her much more dramatically appealing on the Leinsdorf.

N.


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## Woodduck

Music Snob said:


> I have some questions for you all-
> 
> View attachment 149407
> 
> Is there a complete Thomas Beecham 1937 Tristan? Or are the available releases on the market the hybrids with Fritz Reiner conducting in 1936?
> 
> View attachment 149409
> 
> 
> View attachment 149410
> 
> 
> Does anyone have any opinions on the 1935 and/or the 1937 Bodanzky Tristans?


I can recommend the 1937 Bodanzky. It was a very good night in the theater, with Flagstad at her very best and everyone else vocally fine and on their dramatic toes. It was my first time hearing Bodanzky conduct the work and I was impressed with his passion and energy. Unfortunately the sound is mediocre at best, but anyone exploring historic _Tristan_s should find this worthwhile.


----------



## wkasimer

Woodduck said:


> I can recommend the 1937 Bodanzky. It was a very good night in the theater, with Flagstad at her very best and everyone else vocally fine and on their dramatic toes. It was my first time hearing Bodanzky conduct the work and I was impressed with his passion and energy. Unfortunately the sound is mediocre at best, but anyone exploring historic _Tristan_s should find this worthwhile.


The January 1938 Met performance, issued by Immortal Performances, was reviewed in the latest Fanfare by two of my favorite reviewers, Henry Fogel and Ken Meltzer. Both indicated that it's their preferred performance, mostly because KF's singing has a commitment and dramatic sense not as apparent in other performances. But the sound is apparently problematic. Another 1938 performance, from April 16, was issued by Sony in their "Wagner at the Met" set; the sound isn't great, but it's listenable.


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## DarkAngel

What about the 41 Tristan MET broadcast in wonderful remaster by Pristine XR, has strong supporting cast to go with Melchior/Flagstad......

https://www.pristineclassical.com/products/paco150?_pos=2&_sid=6c621bcae&_ss=r


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## The Conte

DarkAngel said:


> What about the 41 Tristan MET broadcast in wonderful remaster by Pristine XR, has strong supporting cast to go with Melchior/Flgstad......
> 
> https://www.pristineclassical.com/products/paco150?_pos=2&_sid=6c621bcae&_ss=r


That's my favourite of the Flagstad Tristans, but I have it on Walhall. I did a comparison between the Pristine sample on their site and the Walhall CDs and couldn't hear any improvement in the Pristine version.

I don't know the 1935 or 1937 Bodanzky recordings, I guess I'm going to have to listen to more of these!

N.


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## Barbebleu

The Conte said:


> That's my favourite of the Flagstad Tristans, but I have it on Walhall. I did a comparison between the Pristine sample on their site and the Walhall CDs and couldn't hear any improvement in the Pristine version.
> 
> N.


Are you telling me I wasted my money on the Pristine one? Aaargh!! :lol:


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## adriesba

Gustav Neidlinger was so perfect as Alberich that I can't imagine anyone else will ever satisfy me in the role. But, what are some of his other good roles and recordings to hear them?


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## Woodduck

adriesba said:


> Gustav Neidlinger was so perfect as Alberich that I can't imagine anyone else will ever satisfy me in the role. But, what are some of his other good roles and recordings to hear them?


He's an excellent Klingsor in the 1962 Knappertsbusch Bayreuth _Parsifal._ IMO only Hermann Uhde was better in the part.


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## wkasimer

adriesba said:


> Gustav Neidlinger was so perfect as Alberich that I can't imagine anyone else will ever satisfy me in the role. But, what are some of his other good roles and recordings to hear them?


He was a surprisingly good Hans Sachs at Bayreuth in 1957. Preiser has a CD devoted to him in various roles, some non-Wagnerian.


----------



## amfortas

If you want to see as well as hear him, he's a wonderfully villainous Don Pizarro in this excellent Fidelio DVD:










(Sorry, not Wagner, but some great Wagnerians involved nonetheless).


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## adriesba

/\ It doesn't have to be a Wagner recording. I was just asking here since I expected most of his roles to be in Wagner operas.

I didn't realize there is a full video production with him. That looks interesting!


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## wkasimer

adriesba said:


> Gustav Neidlinger was so perfect as Alberich that I can't imagine anyone else will ever satisfy me in the role. But, what are some of his other good roles and recordings to hear them?


He's also the bass soloist on Scherchen's recording of Bach's B Minor Mass.


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## Barbebleu

I’ve just finished Götterdämmerung, Bayreuth 1957, Knappertsbusch et al. Not the best sung one I’ve ever heard. Everybody seems a bit lacklustre, in particular Kna. Not the best effort for this brilliant opera.

This opera has so many great scenes - the Norns, Siegfried’s Rhine Journey, blütbrüderschaft, Hagens watch, the curse, the summoning of the vassals, the Rhinemaidens, Siegfried’s Tod, immolation. All of them seemed to pass without emphasis. Weird. Dull, dull, dull!


----------



## Music Snob

Barbebleu said:


> I've just finished Götterdämmerung, Bayreuth 1957, Knappertsbusch et al. Not the best sung one I've ever heard. Everybody seems a bit lacklustre, in particular Kna. Not the best effort for this brilliant opera.
> 
> This opera has so many great scenes - the Norns, Siegfried's Rhine Journey, blütbrüderschaft, Hagens watch, the curse, the summoning of the vassals, the Rhinemaidens, Siegfried's Tod, immolation. All of them seemed to pass without emphasis. Weird. Dull, dull, dull!


Ouch! Even with Nilsson as one of the Norns?

I respectfully disagree with your assessment of the 1957 Götterdämmerung... although I do respect your opinion as well. I suggest for anyone else who may be interested in the 57 Götterdämmerung to give it a test drive themselves, without taking my word for it.


----------



## wkasimer

Barbebleu said:


> I've just finished Götterdämmerung, Bayreuth 1957, Knappertsbusch et al. Not the best sung one I've ever heard. Everybody seems a bit lacklustre, in particular Kna. Not the best effort for this brilliant opera.
> 
> This opera has so many great scenes - the Norns, Siegfried's Rhine Journey, blütbrüderschaft, Hagens watch, the curse, the summoning of the vassals, the Rhinemaidens, Siegfried's Tod, immolation. All of them seemed to pass without emphasis. Weird. Dull, dull, dull!


How does it compare to 1956 and 1958?


----------



## Barbebleu

Can’t remember is the short answer. I seem to recall the ‘58 as being pretty good but it’s been a few years so I’m not putting my neck on the block for this. :lol:

I’m not in a great mood at the moment so perhaps I’m not in the right frame of mind for Wagner. I may revisit it at some point. COVID boredom has set in with a vengeance.


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## The Conte

The '58 was my preference (I still don't understand why Orfeo issued the '56 cycle considering its dull sound and it's not as good as '57 or 58 performance-wise).

N.


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## Music Snob

Barbebleu said:


> I'm not in a great mood at the moment so perhaps I'm not in the right frame of mind for Wagner. I may revisit it at some point. COVID boredom has set in with a vengeance.


Hang in there... you are amongst good company here.

I actually just listened to snippets of the 1942 Elmendorff Götterdämmerung from Bayreuth. Apparently in this recording we can hear the original steerhorns Wagner had manufactured for this music drama. The sound quality was great for the era.


----------



## Music Snob

The Conte said:


> The '58 was my preference (I still don't understand why Orfeo issued the '56 cycle considering its dull sound and it's not as good as '57 or 58 performance-wise).
> 
> N.


I prefer the 1956 for a couple of reasons, one is the way Varnay is able to hold long notes in act 3 of Walküre and in Act 3 of Siegfried. Of course this has much to do with Knappertsbusch's conducting as well during those moments. What a blessing to have three consecutive years of Kna's conducting to chose from.


----------



## The Conte

Music Snob said:


> I prefer the 1956 for a couple of reasons, one is the way Varnay is able to hold long notes in act 3 of Walküre and in Act 3 of Siegfried. Of course this has much to do with Knappertsbusch's conducting as well during those moments. What a blessing to have three consecutive years of Kna's conducting to chose from.


Varnay was better in 57 than 58 (more involved), but there are parts of all those recordings that are better than others. Hotter for example has moments where he is better in one Walkure than the other two in all three of the cycles. I went with '58 because I preferred the casting of the twins and '56 is really let down by the sound.

N.


----------



## Barbebleu

Music Snob said:


> Ouch! Even with Nilsson as one of the Norns?
> 
> I respectfully disagree with your assessment of the 1957 Götterdämmerung... although I do respect your opinion as well. I suggest for anyone else who may be interested in the 57 Götterdämmerung to give it a test drive themselves, without taking my word for it.


Feeling in a better mood I revisited act 3 of the Götterdämmerung I dissed. Clearly my mood had impinged on my ability to give this a fair hearing. It was better than I had given it credit for but I still stand by my initial assessment that the singing was not entirely up to par and Kna wasn't on his best form either. The big climaxes, I feel, were a bit lacklustre. Windgassen, wayward timing and all, was in heroic form. You either like his voice or you don't. I do. It's still not up there with Bayreuth's best Ring cycles though. :tiphat: Pax Vobiscum.


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## Music Snob

Pax Vobiscum ✌

I’m excited for the 1942 Elmendorff Götterdämmerung... the original Steerhorns Wagner made can be heard. The piece can be heard on YouTube.


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## Barbebleu

As they say, go in peace or go in pieces!:lol:


----------



## bz3

The Flying Dutchman is the only mature Wagner that I haven't delved too deeply into historical recordings. Is there a single can't-miss one like there are for Tristan (Furt) or Parsifal (Kna), or if not can someone suggest a good starting point with respectable sound quality?


----------



## adriesba

bz3 said:


> The Flying Dutchman is the only mature Wagner that I haven't delved too deeply into historical recordings. Is there a single can't-miss one like there are for Tristan (Furt) or Parsifal (Kna), or if not can someone suggest a good starting point with respectable sound quality?


The Keilberth recording on Testament is a good choice. Uhde and Varnay are great, and the sound is excellent.


----------



## The Conte

adriesba said:


> The Keilberth recording on Testament is a good choice. Uhde and Varnay are great, and the sound is excellent.


I second this, the other one is the Kna recording from the same year and with almost the same cast. (Best available on Orfeo).

N.


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## wkasimer

The Conte said:


> I second this, the other one is the Kna recording from the same year and with almost the same cast. (Best available on Orfeo).


The sound on this is mono, but quite good, and this performance features a much better Erik (Windgassen vs. Lustig for Keilberth).

Another option would be one of the live London/Rysanek performances - Bayreuth 1959 or Met 1960. There's also Met 1950 with Hotter and Varnay, but the sound probably rules that one out. Sound also disqualifies some other earlier recordings with Hotter and Nissen in the title role.

I'm a big fan of the 1961 Bayreuth with Sawallisch that was issued on Philips, but only because I think that Franz Crass is the greatest Holländer on records.


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## Music Snob

I just received the Keilberth Hollander, and it does sound great. I am not familiar with the opera so I cannot say much about it. I am looking at getting the Kna Hollander on Walhall because the Orfeo is a little too expensive for me. Apparently the Orfeo splits Senta’s prayer over two sides. Perhaps someone can verify for me.

I have no problem with mono and in fact prefer it. 

What an amazing overture though! Also, there can be an entire thread which can discuss the way prayers are used in Wagner’s and other composers music to great effect...


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## Itullian

^^^^^^Yes, Senta's ballad is split.
The sound and packaging are great though.


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## adriesba

Itullian said:


> ^^^^^^Yes, Senta's ballad is split.
> The sound and packaging are great though.


Yeah, I think a lot of recordings split Senta's ballad. There's not a nice way to divide the opera over two discs.


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## Music Snob

I caved in and I hesitantly made the purchase on these gems from norpete.com. I was taken back by the price and using an unfamiliar website. Well I am so glad I did! Based on the packaging alone this blows Pristine Classical out of the water. Complete liner booklets are provided with each set, and with the Beecham performance two booklets are provided. These books discuss the opera itself, but more importantly the background of each performance and the engineering involved in both the night of the concert and the release of these editions. The photos of the performances were revelatory to me.

As for the sound quality I have only snippets to compare them to. However there is an improvement over the Liebestod's I have heard from these concerts issued on other collections. These recordings are old and the miracle is in the singing and conducting of those special evenings. I can tolerate quite a bit of surface noise to hear these singers whom I adore. Richard Caniell did a great job making these as listenable as possible, IMO, and explains exactly what he could and could not do based on the source material that was available. As I said, the liner notes are invaluable.

I am happy to support Norpete.com, a small company not too far from where I live. I am attempting to cut out the big retailers to support smaller businesses wherever possible... an all but impossible task nowadays. The customer service at Norpete was outstanding, they answered the phone right away with my question and got my order out the same day.

I just started to listen to these sets over the weekend and I have a ways to go. However I am so thankful to have them. There are bonus tracks on each set. Commentary by Milton Criss, Geraldine Farrar, and Giovanni Martinelli. A 1939 Todsverkalung from Walküre act 2 conducted by Reiner in San Francisco, and another complete 2nd act conducted by Beecham in the same Covent Garden run are all bonus tracks. The first studio Liebeatod by Flagstad is also a bonus- conducted by Lange in October 1935. It is my favorite Liebestod now... conducted nice and slow without dragging.

So much more to write but my time is limited. The 1942 Götterdämmerung and the 1937 and 1950 Holländers as well. I now have an hour and a half commute to work so it is just the right amount of time to fit in an entire act one way, more or less.


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## The Conte

I too like the Immortal Performances releases and have no complaints about the sound quality which usually is superior to other releases (their Met Forza with Corelli and Price is actually in slightly better sound on the Myto release - although it's OOP and so may be more difficult to find).

I've always ordered direct from IP's website and have received superb service, I'm tempted by some of their Wagner/Melchior sets, but I already have two Melchior/Flagstad Tristan's, do I really need a third? I realise some here are more familiar with these recordings than I am, which of their (many) Tristan's do you think are the best? (The Leinsdorf is the most dramatic and therefore my favourite, but I haven't listened to all of them closely.)

N.


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## Music Snob

The 1935 Bodanzky is superbly conducted but the sound quality is scratchy and distant- especially the third act. Apparently whoever recorded it was experimenting with microphone placement that night. I did devote a good portion of time to the 1935 Bodanzky and was blown away by the performance. Bodanzky conducts with the delicate punch that Solti could never seem control. Bodanzky took the love duet at a slow contemplative pace in between an adrenaline infused approach to the pre and proceeding scenes. A truly under-rated conductor IMO.


The Beecham and 37 Bodanzky seem to be on the top tier based on what I’ve read but I haven’t given them an honest listen yet so I cannot say for sure. I have the Reiner and Leinsdorf and they are both outstanding. A gluttony of musical riches!


----------



## adriesba

Music Snob said:


> I caved in and I hesitantly made the purchase on these gems from norpete.com. I was taken back by the price and using an unfamiliar website. Well I am so glad I did! Based on the packaging alone this blows Pristine Classical out of the water. Complete liner booklets are provided with each set, and with the Beecham performance two booklets are provided. These books discuss the opera itself, but more importantly the background of each performance and the engineering involved in both the night of the concert and the release of these editions. The photos of the performances were revelatory to me.
> 
> As for the sound quality I have only snippets to compare them to. However there is an improvement over the Liebestod's I have heard from these concerts issued on other collections. These recordings are old and the miracle is in the singing and conducting of those special evenings. I can tolerate quite a bit of surface noise to hear these singers whom I adore. Richard Caniell did a great job making these as listenable as possible, IMO, and explains exactly what he could and could not do based on the source material that was available. As I said, the liner notes are invaluable.
> 
> I am happy to support Norpete.com, a small company not too far from where I live. I am attempting to cut out the big retailers to support smaller businesses wherever possible... an all but impossible task nowadays. The customer service at Norpete was outstanding, they answered the phone right away with my question and got my order out the same day.
> 
> I just started to listen to these sets over the weekend and I have a ways to go. However I am so thankful to have them. There are bonus tracks on each set. Commentary by Milton Criss, Geraldine Farrar, and Giovanni Martinelli. A 1939 Todsverkalung from Walküre act 2 conducted by Reiner in San Francisco, and another complete 2nd act conducted by Beecham in the same Covent Garden run are all bonus tracks. The first studio Liebeatod by Flagstad is also a bonus- conducted by Lange in October 1935. It is my favorite Liebestod now... conducted nice and slow without dragging.
> 
> So much more to write but my time is limited. The 1942 Götterdämmerung and the 1937 and 1950 Holländers as well. I now have an hour and a half commute to work so it is just the right amount of time to fit in an entire act one way, more or less.


I've been curious about that site for a while. They have a lot of rare releases that just aren't available elsewhere. Glad to hear they are good to order from!


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## The Conte

adriesba said:


> I've been curious about that site for a while. They have a lot of rare releases that just aren't available elsewhere. Glad to hear they are good to order from!


You have to be careful what you order there. Some of the releases have been 'improved' with additions from other performances. For example, the Cigna/Martinelli Norma (not the best night for her) has been edited so that her wobbly high notes are replaced with the more secure ones from her studio recording. (I already had the recording on G.O.P. and so didn't bother replacing that.) In the Callas 1953 Medea (well worth issuing in good sound), they replace one or more of the duets with the better versions from the Dallas recording! So I haven't got that one either. Then there was the dream Ring which is made up from various different recordings. Check before you buy.

N.


----------



## adriesba

The Conte said:


> You have to be careful what you order there. Some of the releases have been 'improved' with additions from other performances. For example, the Cigna/Martinelli Norma (not the best night for her) has been edited so that her wobbly high notes are replaced with the more secure ones from her studio recording. (I already had the recording on G.O.P. and so didn't bother replacing that.) In the Callas 1953 Medea (well worth issuing in good sound), they replace one or more of the duets with the better versions from the Dallas recording! So I haven't got that one either. Then there was the dream Ring which is made up from various different recordings. Check before you buy.
> 
> N.


Yes, I have read about how that one label does that sort of thing with their releases. I think there was a _Tannhäuser _or something with Helen Traubel where they replaced her high notes. Tampering with recordings like that bothers me. What I was referring to though is how they have several out-of-print releases from labels like Myto and others. The prices seemed very reasonable as well.


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## The Conte

adriesba said:


> Yes, I have read about how that one label does that sort of thing with their releases. I think there was a _Tannhäuser _or something with Helen Traubel where they replaced her high notes. Tampering with recordings like that bothers me. What I was referring to though is how they have several out-of-print releases from labels like Myto and others. The prices seemed very reasonable as well.


Yes, indeed, where they haven't tampered or spliced in bits (which seems to be the majority of their offerings), they are excellent and they are always producing more titles. They tend to go for stuff that isn't available elsewhere, as you say. They have the Corelli/Price Ernani, the Kipnis Godunov, Cigna's Aida and a whole host of Melchior and/or Flagstad Wagner.

N.


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## vincula

Live at the Met '50









Those were the times...

Almost singing Happy New Year.

Regards,

Vincula


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## Music Snob

I was able to do a nice side by side comparison between the 1935 Archiphon Tristan and the Immortal Performances Tristan from 1935.

For me, hands down, the winner is the Archiphon. The Immortal Performances version is edited too much. One moment there is tape hiss, the moment there isn't- then the tape his returns. It is very distracting for me. Even with supposed pitch correction it does not surpass the Archiphon version which is much more consistent throughout.

I know some folks value a good booklet with their CD's. Immortal Performances went above and beyond providing a great book with essays and pictures all about the March 1935 performance. I could go on, but what is important is the music, and if you ever plan on purchasing the 1935 Flagstad Tristan then I highly recommend the Archiphon. What a real joy to hear this caliber of singing and conducting... Hats off to Mr. Bodanzky.


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## Bill H.

Hi there, it's been awhile since I posted here. You might have seen that recently, BBC 3 had available in streaming format performances from the 2018 Royal Opera House revival of its Ring Cycle. While it's not exactly a "historical" Wagner recording, I thought that some might be interested to know that I recorded the streamed cycle in its entirety, along with the commentaries and interviews by Tom Service as part of the broadcasts, and are making these available to anyone who wants to download them.

These are in lossless FLAC audio format, as separate zipped files for each opera in the cycle. They are largely untouched aurally by me, save for a very mild loudness adjustment. I think the sound from the recorded stream is quite decent, even if the dynamic range is not overwhelming, with what IMO is a good balance between the voices and the orchestra. Pappano's interpretation is on the quick side, and in some ways reminds me of the classic Krauss cycle from Bayreuth in its vigor, though with much better sound and balance.

For each opera the tracks are whole Acts, save for Rheingold, which is divided into the four Scenes; all are in order with the separate Commentary files, so that you can omit playing the latter if desired. I'll admit I wasn't ambitious enough at this time to set up 'tracks' within the Acts as per a CD release, but can do so if there's a real interest in that.

As you might expect these are sizable downloads, approaching or exceeding a GB in size, so please be patient. Here's the Google Docs link:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/11M2af7oUbHDbW89qx3O4gUo9MZN8c2fB?usp=sharing

If you do get these I hope you enjoy them, as I have been. Let me know if you have any issues or comments. 
Bill H.


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## Barbebleu

Bill H. said:


> Hi there, it's been awhile since I posted here. You might have seen that recently, BBC 3 had available in streaming format performances from the 2018 Royal Opera House revival of its Ring Cycle. While it's not exactly a "historical" Wagner recording, I thought that some might be interested to know that I recorded the streamed cycle in its entirety, along with the commentaries and interviews by Tom Service as part of the broadcasts, and are making these available to anyone who wants to download them.
> 
> These are in lossless FLAC audio format, as separate zipped files for each opera in the cycle. They are largely untouched aurally by me, save for a very mild loudness adjustment. I think the sound from the recorded stream is quite decent, even if the dynamic range is not overwhelming, with what IMO is a good balance between the voices and the orchestra. Pappano's interpretation is on the quick side, and in some ways reminds me of the classic Krauss cycle from Bayreuth in its vigor, though with much better sound and balance.
> 
> For each opera the tracks are whole Acts, save for Rheingold, which is divided into the four Scenes; all are in order with the separate Commentary files, so that you can omit playing the latter if desired. I'll admit I wasn't ambitious enough at this time to set up 'tracks' within the Acts as per a CD release, but can do so if there's a real interest in that.
> 
> As you might expect these are sizable downloads, approaching or exceeding a GB in size, so please be patient. Here's the Google Docs link:
> 
> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/11M2af7oUbHDbW89qx3O4gUo9MZN8c2fB?usp=sharing
> 
> If you do get these I hope you enjoy them, as I have been. Let me know if you have any issues or comments.
> Bill H.


As always, thanks again Bill.


----------



## damianjb1

Bill H. said:


> Hi there, it's been awhile since I posted here. You might have seen that recently, BBC 3 had available in streaming format performances from the 2018 Royal Opera House revival of its Ring Cycle. While it's not exactly a "historical" Wagner recording, I thought that some might be interested to know that I recorded the streamed cycle in its entirety, along with the commentaries and interviews by Tom Service as part of the broadcasts, and are making these available to anyone who wants to download them.
> 
> These are in lossless FLAC audio format, as separate zipped files for each opera in the cycle. They are largely untouched aurally by me, save for a very mild loudness adjustment. I think the sound from the recorded stream is quite decent, even if the dynamic range is not overwhelming, with what IMO is a good balance between the voices and the orchestra. Pappano's interpretation is on the quick side, and in some ways reminds me of the classic Krauss cycle from Bayreuth in its vigor, though with much better sound and balance.
> 
> For each opera the tracks are whole Acts, save for Rheingold, which is divided into the four Scenes; all are in order with the separate Commentary files, so that you can omit playing the latter if desired. I'll admit I wasn't ambitious enough at this time to set up 'tracks' within the Acts as per a CD release, but can do so if there's a real interest in that.
> 
> As you might expect these are sizable downloads, approaching or exceeding a GB in size, so please be patient. Here's the Google Docs link:
> 
> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/11M2af7oUbHDbW89qx3O4gUo9MZN8c2fB?usp=sharing
> 
> If you do get these I hope you enjoy them, as I have been. Let me know if you have any issues or comments.
> Bill H.


Many thanks Bill.
Very much appreciated.


----------



## damianjb1

I'm sure this recording has been mentioned more than once in this thread but I'll mention it again.
I just listened to this recording and it had me on the edge of my seat from first note to last.
I have never heard the opening of this Opera conducted so excitingly. I could hardly believe it. There's an occasional bit of wonkiness after that but WOW!!! Incredible stuff and I cannot recommend this recording more highly.


----------



## DarkAngel

> I'm sure this recording has been mentioned more than once in this thread but I'll mention it again.
> I just listened to this recording and it had me on the edge of my seat from first note to last.
> I have never heard the opening of this Opera conducted so excitingly. I could hardly believe it. There's an occasional bit of wonkiness after that but WOW!!! Incredible stuff and I cannot recommend this recording more highly.












Agree Damian classic for sure with the great singers in prime voice, even better this 2CD Naxos Walkure release also includes parts of Act 2 by Walter 1935 and in 1938 completion of Act 2 by conductor Seidler-Winkler, too bad so limited number of Wagner recordings for Walter.....

For fans of 1950s Bayreuth Rings a great treat to hear a very young Hans Hotter as wotan and compare to his later mature performances......

Also while filling buy basket with Naxos Wagner CDs might as well get the 1936 Tristan with Melchior & Flagstad


----------



## silentio

I came across this snippet from the vengeance trio from Gotterdammerung with Nilsson/Grendl/Stewart in 1965. What voices and what stage presences. Nilsson and Stewart looked so convincing as the characters they were playing, and Grendl was downright creepy.






Those were the days!


----------



## Woodduck

silentio said:


> I came across this snippet from the vengeance trio from Gotterdammerung with Nilsson/Grendl/Stewart in 1965. What voices and what stage presences. Nilsson and Stewart looked so convincing as the characters they were playing, and Grendl was downright creepy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Those were the days!


Pity it isn't longer.


----------



## pariah

Wagner "Die Meistersinger" / Karajan conducts the Bayruth Festival Orchestra and Chorus 1951 live


----------



## Barbebleu

Four posts in and already you are one of the ‘favoured few’. :lol:

Welcome to the rabbit hole!


----------



## The Conte

pariah said:


> Wagner "Die Meistersinger" / Karajan conducts the Bayruth Festival Orchestra and Chorus 1951 live


There's a perfection to this recording that makes it eminently recommendable. Were I a bigger fan of the opera I would have bought it, but there's some very good competition (Kna in 55 and the justly famous Kubelik).

N.


----------



## damianjb1

DarkAngel said:


> Agree Damian classic for sure with the great singers in prime voice, even better this 2CD Naxos Walkure release also includes parts of Act 2 by Walter 1935 and in 1938 completion of Act 2 by conductor Seidler-Winkler, too bad so limited number of Wagner recordings for Walter.....
> 
> For fans of 1950s Bayreuth Rings a great treat to hear a very young Hans Hotter as wotan and compare to his later mature performances......
> 
> Also while filling buy basket with Naxos Wagner CDs might as well get the 1936 Tristan with Melchior & Flagstad


Thank you. I'll definitely check those both out.


----------



## Itullian

Finally got a chance to pick this set up fairly cheap.
I had the Rheingold in another box set and loved it, but this set 
was hard to get at a reasonable price,


----------



## Celloman

I happened across this enlightening disc in the local record store a while back - picked it up on a whim. As it turned out, the 1948 recordings of Isolde's Narrative/Curse and the Liebestod filled the gap between my 1936 Reiner and Furtwangler 1952. I hadn't heard any of Flagstad's work from the 1940s before listening to these studio recordings. She's in a slightly fresher voice than in the Furtwangler, but then again, these are short excerpts - with a rather obscure conductor at the helm.


----------



## Music Snob

Celloman said:


> I happened across this enlightening disc in the local record store a while back - picked it up on a whim. As it turned out, the 1948 recordings of Isolde's Narrative/Curse and the Liebestod filled the gap between my 1936 Reiner and Furtwangler 1952. I hadn't heard any of Flagstad's work from the 1940s before listening to these studio recordings. She's in a slightly fresher voice than in the Furtwangler, but then again, these are short excerpts - with a rather obscure conductor at the helm.


Greetings Celloman-

This is the CD that opened up the world of Flagstad for me. Unsurpassed Wesendonck Lieder, IMO, and if not unsurpassed, the rest is as good as it gets. Immolation, Elizabeth's Prayer, Liebestod, etc.

I can not recommend this CD enough... however, if anyone wants a more complete EMI set, the ICON 5cd set has all this and more.

I still have to review the Bodanzky 1937 Tristan, and the Walhall, Immortal, and The 40's Label incarnations... I just haven't gotten around to writing about it here.


----------



## Woodduck

Celloman said:


> I happened across this enlightening disc in the local record store a while back - picked it up on a whim. As it turned out, the 1948 recordings of Isolde's Narrative/Curse and the Liebestod filled the gap between my 1936 Reiner and Furtwangler 1952. I hadn't heard any of Flagstad's work from the 1940s before listening to these studio recordings. She's in a slightly fresher voice than in the Furtwangler, but then again, these are short excerpts - with a rather obscure conductor at the helm.


Flagstad in 1948 was still in very close to prime vocal estate. Her voice had taken on a darker, richer color which I personally love, while not yet showing the effort on high notes we hear in 1952. That "narrative and curse" really gives us an idea of the force of nature she was.

Issay Dobrowen was a distinguished conductor in his day. He made a number of recordings with major orchestras and soloists, but is probably best remembered now as the conductor of Boris Christoff's first, mono recording of _Boris Godunov._


----------



## Seattleoperafan

There is a new series of excerpts from the Ring someone just posted on Youtube featuring Traubel that are stunning. Her voice is so glorious.



 I don't know much about them but Herbert Janssen, her Wotan, has a voice of amazing beauty. I think she is underrated by a good bit. She has a gargantuan, beautiful instrument.


----------



## vivalagentenuova

Traubel is really wonderful in this recording of Act III. Janssen was a great singer but I'm not sure why he attempted Wotan.


----------



## 5mai

Yes, Herbert Janssen did not have a Wotan voice. He moved into heavier roles after he moved to the US. Whether he was steered by Met management or chose such roles himself, I am not sure, but his voice lost that lovely bloom.


----------



## wkasimer

5mai said:


> Yes, Herbert Janssen did not have a Wotan voice. He moved into heavier roles after he moved to the US. Whether he was steered by Met management or chose such roles himself, I am not sure, but his voice lost that lovely bloom.


Probably a combination of both. After Schorr retired, and during the war when Huehn was unavailable, there really wasn't anyone else on the Met roster to sing Wotan. Janssen had an essentially lyric voice, and the Met had no shortage of such voices to sing those roles. And let's face it - when management came to Janssen and asked, the temptation to sing one of THE Wagnerian roles was too much to resist.

BTW, Marston is releasing a comprehensive set of Janssen's recordings. Not sure of the release date.


----------



## LeoPiano

Hi everyone. I was looking at the Krauss '53 ring on Pristine Classical and was wondering why the Ambient Stereo is listed at almost half the price of the mono 24 bit. I know that 24 bit is an improvement over 16 bit, but isn't the main reason people are buying the Pristine versions of the Krauss ring for the Ambient Stereo? Thanks!


----------



## Azol

With these types of audio sources (I mean, this is '53 live recording, right?) I highly doubt there's something more behind the 24-bit moniker other than a buzzword.
But I guess you'd have to pay extra to stay away from the Ambient Stereo version. Especially if it sounds something like the PanClassics' Keilberth '53 boxset.

P.S. It works similar to adding stereo reverb effect to a mono signal (usually electric guitar is treated that way in pop/rock music).


----------



## wkasimer

LeoPiano said:


> Hi everyone. I was looking at the Krauss '53 ring on Pristine Classical and was wondering why the Ambient Stereo is listed at almost half the price of the mono 24 bit. I know that 24 bit is an improvement over 16 bit, but isn't the main reason people are buying the Pristine versions of the Krauss ring for the Ambient Stereo? Thanks!


The 24 bit sound is honest, even if it's overkill. The Ambient Stereo is akin to putting lipstick on a pig.

Personally, I'm quite happy with my Orfeo official release of this Ring, which may well be the source that Pristine is tarting up. I've actually asked Andrew Rose on several occasions, wondering what his source was for this particular performance - and I've yet to receive an answer.


----------



## 5mai

Plenty of psychology issues here I think. Why do singers chase 'big' roles? To stretch themselves? To enhance their reputation and legacy? In Janssen's case, maybe just the need to attempt what is (arguably), the greatest of all operatic roles. I can't say I blame anyone for trying. Tenors seem to come to grief more than other voice types. Or we perhaps notice them more.


----------



## Barbebleu

Just finished listening to Act 1 of Die Walküre, New York Met, 1961/62 season with Leinsdorf on the podium and Vickers, Kuchta and Wiemann. Very good. Vickers on fine form and is well matched with the excellent Gladys Kuchta. Ernst Wiemann is a suitably annoyed Hunding (well, wouldn’t you be if a stranger came into your house and started to make overtures to your wife?) :lol:

Leinsdorf does a good job with the orchestra who are in pretty good form too. But it’s only Act 1 so we’ll see how the rest goes.


----------



## Seattleoperafan

This is the complete third act of Die Walkure featuring Helen Traubel. Here her voice sounds even more vast than in the post I made earlier of short excerpts.


----------



## Woodduck

Seattleoperafan said:


> This is the complete third act of Die Walkure featuring Helen Traubel. Here her voice sounds even more vast than in the post I made earlier of short excerpts.


This is a purely personal reaction, but there are some voices that get in the way of my visualizing the characters they're portraying, and Traubel's is one of them. She produces a splendid stream of sound and can be a decent interpreter when she wants to be (which isn't all the time), but she always sounds to me like someone's mother or aunt rather than their daughter. If we're talking about the valkyrie Brunnhilde, the timbres of Leider, Flagstad and Nilsson seem rather age-neutral, at least until late in their careers, but those of Traubel and Varnay seem too mature, even matronly, for a virginal tomboy who leaps tall precipices with a single bound. Do others share this feeing?


----------



## wkasimer

Woodduck said:


> Do others share this feeing?


Yes. For me, it's less of a problem with Brunnhilde, a role where I'm simply grateful for any soprano who can sing the notes with a modicum of ease and attractive tone. I have more trouble with matronly Sieglindes., Elsas, Elisabeths, and Evas.


----------



## Woodduck

wkasimer said:


> Yes. For me, it's less of a problem with Brunnhilde, a role where I'm simply grateful for any soprano who can sing the notes with a modicum of ease and attractive tone. I have more trouble with matronly Sieglindes., Elsas, Elisabeths, and Evas.


I suppose Wagner of all composers poses the greatest difficulty, and mainly for sopranos. The two Wagnerian soprano roles in which I don't care about the voice making a youthful impression are Isolde and Kundry. Isolde is a young woman in the story, but nothing about her behavior suggests any particular age. Kundry is... well, not like you and me.  She's thousands of years old, her role lies low for a soprano, and I think a mezzo voice is better at suggesting both her wild woman persona and the sultry seductress/devouring mother incarnation she becomes in Act 2.

Back to Traubel: I heard her as Elisabeth. I did not like it. But I'm sure she and Melchior cut a monumental pair of figures onstage.


----------



## wkasimer

Woodduck said:


> Back to Traubel: I heard her as Elisabeth. I did not like it. But I'm sure she and Melchior cut a monumental pair of figures onstage.


I like Traubel's Isolde (the one from 1943, where the presence of Melchior and Kipnis certainly doesn't hurt); I'm less enthusiastic about the rest of her recordings. When it comes to parts like Elisabeth and Sieglinde, Traubel lacks the sort of vulnerability essential to the roles.

It's really a shame that Eileen Farrell didn't record more Wagner.


----------



## Woodduck

wkasimer said:


> I like Traubel's Isolde (the one from 1943, where the presence of Melchior and Kipnis certainly doesn't hurt); I'm less enthusiastic about the rest of her recordings. When it comes to parts like Elisabeth and Sieglinde, Traubel lacks the sort of vulnerability essential to the roles.
> 
> It's really a shame that Eileen Farrell didn't record more Wagner.


Agree on all points. Too bad Farrell didn't record (or for that matter sing) more of a lot of things.


----------



## Seattleoperafan

Woodduck said:


> This is a purely personal reaction, but there are some voices that get in the way of my visualizing the characters they're portraying, and Traubel's is one of them. She produces a splendid stream of sound and can be a decent interpreter when she wants to be (which isn't all the time), but she always sounds to me like someone's mother or aunt rather than their daughter. If we're talking about the valkyrie Brunnhilde, the timbres of Leider, Flagstad and Nilsson seem rather age-neutral, at least until late in their careers, but those of Traubel and Varnay seem too mature, even matronly, for a virginal tomboy who leaps tall precipices with a single bound. Do others share this feeing?


I can understand you reaction. I prefer more matronly voices and even really like mature Sutherland, which most hate. I think it is an inner spiritual thing: my male energy is of a 16 year old without pimples and no acne, and my inner female side ( which is the part that most connects to female singers), is a mature, powerful woman. I also never see operas as a whole but only in snippets so characters are not so primary to me. I no longer go to operas and haven't for years and don't sit down and listen all the way through to the complete operas I have. I just like the voices.


----------



## Woodduck

Seattleoperafan said:


> I can understand you reaction. I prefer more matronly voices and even really like mature Sutherland, which most hate. I think it is an inner spiritual thing: my male energy is of a 16 year old without pimples and no acne, and my inner female side ( which is the part that most connects to female singers), is a mature, powerful woman. I also never see operas as a whole but only in snippets so characters are not so primary to me. I no longer go to operas and haven't for years and don't sit down and listen all the way through to the complete operas I have. I just like the voices.


I will now be forced to contemplate the absence of pimples and acne every time I hear Traubel. Thank you.


----------



## Itullian

Arrived yesterday. 
Excellent mono so far. Rheingold is excellent. Hotter rocks. 
Love hearing what the Wagner performance was like back then.
Great singing!
So lucky to have found this for 40 buckos on ebay!

This Rheingold gave me chills.


----------



## Itullian

All Wagnerians shpuld have this recording.
Great singing and good sound.


----------



## Itullian

Classic cast.
Good mono sound.


----------



## Spy Car

Itullian said:


> Classic cast.
> Good mono sound.


Earlier this evening I was wondering what I should put on for tonight's "concert," saw you post and thought, "why not?"

Act I just concluded. Going to take a short break and decide if I'm up to take on Act II tonight.

Very enjoyable!

Bill


----------



## Itullian

Spy Car said:


> Earlier this evening I was wondering what I should put on for tonight's "concert," saw you post and thought, "why not?"
> 
> Act I just concluded. Going to take a short break and decide if I'm up to take on Act II tonight.
> 
> Very enjoyable!
> 
> Bill


I listened to the whole thing straight through.
It went fast.


----------



## Spy Car

Itullian said:


> I listened to the whole thing straight through.
> It went fast.


Good man.

Alas, I started too late. Layed down for just a second before tackling Act II, but was out cold.

At least I can look forward to hearing the rest.

Bill


----------



## Itullian

Taken a little trip in the wayback machine


----------



## Itullian

I notice two dates o the Moralt Ring issues.
1948 and 1949.
Is this correct?
If so is one better than the other?


----------



## wkasimer

Itullian said:


> I notice two dates o the Moralt Ring issues.
> 1948 and 1949.
> Is this correct?
> If so is one better than the other?


The Moralt RING was recorded an act a time, like Furtwangler's RAI recording, over two years:

http://www.the-wagnerian.com/2011/10/wagnerian-podcast-no-2-rudolf-moralts.html


----------



## Music Snob

https://www.pristineclassical.com/

This weeks Pristine release is the 1952 Tristan und Isolde conducted by Herbert von Karajan in Bayreuth.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Itullian said:


> I notice two dates o the Moralt Ring issues.
> 1948 and 1949.
> Is this correct?
> If so is one better than the other?


*According to this site*, there should be only one Moralt Ring, recorded October/November 1948 (R, W) and January-April 1949 (S, G).


----------



## Barbebleu

SixFootScowl said:


> *According to this site*, there should be only one Moralt Ring, recorded October/November 1948 (R, W) and January-April 1949 (S, G).


See post #5257. Wkasimer beat you to it. :lol:


----------



## SixFootScowl

Barbebleu said:


> See post #5257. Wkasimer beat you to it. :lol:


Oh, I did not bother to open his link as I thought it was about Furtwangler.


----------



## adriesba

Anyone buying anything from Opera Depot's _Ring_ sale?


----------



## SixFootScowl

adriesba said:


> Anyone buying anything from Opera Depot's _Ring_ sale?


Taking a pass. Have plenty of Rings and the prices at OD are not exactly cheap, even with the sale.


----------



## adriesba

Probably been discussed a gazillion times, but I don't like trying to search in this thread -

What are some recommended recordings of _Tristan und Isolde_ with Flagstad and Melchior? Are there any without massive cuts?


----------



## Barbebleu

adriesba said:


> Are there any without massive cuts?


Short answer - no. I don't think Melchior ever sang an uncut Tristan on the continental USA. He may have sung it complete at Bayreuth under Toscanini in 1928 but I can't find conclusive proof that it was uncut.

I'm fairly certain that any extant Tristans with M & F are cut.


----------



## wkasimer

adriesba said:


> Probably been discussed a gazillion times, but I don't like trying to search in this thread -
> 
> What are some recommended recordings of _Tristan und Isolde_ with Flagstad and Melchior? Are there any without massive cuts?


They're all cut - as Barbebleu indicated, Melchior never sang an uncut Tristan, in the USA or anywhere else.

I can't really make a comparison. It is said by some that the 1937 ROH performance conducted by Beecham is the best performance, but I suspect that the best sound is the 1936 performance under Reiner, as issued by Naxos.


----------



## Parsifal98

Has anyone ever heard of this recording? I have just read of its existence. This recording, the third act of Die Walküre, was recorded in New York in 1945 in order to complete what had been started by Bruno Walter and Bruno Seidler-Winkler in Vienna and Berlin. The cast includes Helen Traubel as Brünnhilde and Herbert Janssen as Wotan. Here is a bit of background for those who are interested: https://lottelehmannleague.org/die-walkure/






The sound is much better on the newly released Columbia Masterworks edition and on the Pristine version: https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8907217--wagner-die-walkure-act-iii
https://www.pristineclassical.com/collections/artist-herbert-janssen/products/paco180


----------



## 89Koechel

Parsifal98 - (the '45 recording, w/Traubel & Janssen) - very nice, and thanks for mentioning it! .... Well, to be honest, I hardly care how-CUT the Tristan recordings, with Mr. Melchior, are. This Danishman was almost-always, head-and-shoulders above any, other Heldentenor, and his recordings are always a certain "standard", that's almost never been approached ... except by the barest of few (Volker, Thill and maybe Vickers) ... in the few, overall ... of the best singings of Wagner. Eh?


----------



## Woodduck

Parsifal98 said:


> Has anyone ever heard of this recording? I have just read of its existence. This recording, the third act of Die Walküre, was recorded in New York in 1945 in order to complete what had been started by Bruno Walter and Bruno Seidler-Winkler in Vienna and Berlin. The cast includes Helen Traubel as Brünnhilde and Herbert Janssen as Wotan. Here is a bit of background for those who are interested: https://lottelehmannleague.org/die-walkure/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The sound is much better on the newly released Columbia Masterworks edition and on the Pristine version: https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8907217--wagner-die-walkure-act-iii
> https://www.pristineclassical.com/collections/artist-herbert-janssen/products/paco180


I know this recording. It's interesting mainly for Traubel. Janssen was not born to sing Wotan, lacking power and any heroic glint in his soft-cored sound, and I wonder why they chose him. I would think any number of bass-baritones would have jumped at the chance to be part of the project.


----------



## wkasimer

Woodduck said:


> I know this recording. It's interesting mainly for Traubel. Janssen was not born to sing Wotan, lacking power and any heroic glint in his soft-cored sound, and I wonder why they chose him. I would think any number of bass-baritones would have jumped at the chance to be part of the project.


I'm trying to think of who else might have been available in NYC in 1945, and I'm coming up empty...


----------



## Woodduck

wkasimer said:


> I'm trying to think of who else might have been available in NYC in 1945, and I'm coming up empty...


Was Julius Huehn still in good voice in 1945? Wiki says his voice was in decline shortly thereafter, but he was fantastic a few years earlier, as in this marvelous scene with Kerstin Thorborg:


----------



## wkasimer

Woodduck said:


> Was Julius Huehn still in good voice in 1945? Wiki says his voice was in decline shortly thereafter, but he was fantastic a few years earlier


He was an excellent Wotan on a 1940 broadcast, but I'm not sure whether he'd returned from service in Europe at the time of the Act 3 recording. And given how little he sang after the war, I suspect that his voice was pretty well shot. A shame, since he was still in his early 40's.


----------



## 89Koechel

Woodduck - Just wanted to thank you, for the YouTube excerpt - Huehn & Thorborg, in Lohengrin. I've hardly listened to Huehn, before ... and have a "passing acquaintance", so to speak, with Thorborg. Maybe she & Astrid Varnay are two of the forgotten, of the best females, in certain Wagnerian roles. Well, this might be the BEST example of Huehn, of all, and I could hardly know any others. Thanks again!


----------



## Woodduck

89Koechel said:


> Woodduck - Just wanted to thank you, for the YouTube excerpt - Huehn & Thorborg, in Lohengrin. I've hardly listened to Huehn, before ... and have a "passing acquaintance", so to speak, with Thorborg. Maybe she & Astrid Varnay are two of the forgotten, of the best females, in certain Wagnerian roles. Well, this might be the BEST example of Huehn, of all, and I could hardly know any others. Thanks again!


You're welcome. I dare say a better performance of that scene is hardly conceivable, though it's probably matched by Margarete Klose (IMO the greatest Wagnerian mezzo of all time) and Josef Metternich in this 1953 performance:


----------



## Barbebleu

Woodduck said:


> You're welcome. I dare say a better performance of that scene is hardly conceivable, though it's probably matched by Margarete Klose (IMO the greatest Wagnerian mezzo of all time) and Josef Metternich in this 1953 performance:


Metternich is quite the singer. I recently listened to him as Jokanaan in Moralt's '52 Salome. Quite, quite excellent.


----------



## Eramire156

Parsifal98 said:


> Has anyone ever heard of this recording? I have just read of its existence. This recording, the third act of Die Walküre, was recorded in New York in 1945 in order to complete what had been started by Bruno Walter and Bruno Seidler-Winkler in Vienna and Berlin. The cast includes Helen Traubel as Brünnhilde and Herbert Janssen as Wotan. Here is a bit of background for those who are interested: https://lottelehmannleague.org/die-walkure/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The sound is much better on the newly released Columbia Masterworks edition and on the Pristine version: https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8907217--wagner-die-walkure-act-iii
> https://www.pristineclassical.com/collections/artist-herbert-janssen/products/paco180


It has been some time since I've listened to my old LP…









I'll give a spin today


----------



## wkasimer

89Koechel said:


> Woodduck - Just wanted to thank you, for the YouTube excerpt - Huehn & Thorborg, in Lohengrin. I've hardly listened to Huehn, before ... and have a "passing acquaintance", so to speak, with Thorborg. Maybe she & Astrid Varnay are two of the forgotten, of the best females, in certain Wagnerian roles. Well, this might be the BEST example of Huehn, of all, and I could hardly know any others. Thanks again!


I'm not sure that Huehn made *any* commercial recordings, so we're stuck with broadcasts. The entire 1940 Walkure (and it's really *entire* - it's one of the only uncut Walkure performance from the Met during that era) with Huehn's Wotan is on YouTube:


----------



## adriesba

Parsifal98 said:


> Has anyone ever heard of this recording? I have just read of its existence. This recording, the third act of Die Walküre, was recorded in New York in 1945 in order to complete what had been started by Bruno Walter and Bruno Seidler-Winkler in Vienna and Berlin. The cast includes Helen Traubel as Brünnhilde and Herbert Janssen as Wotan. Here is a bit of background for those who are interested: https://lottelehmannleague.org/die-walkure/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The sound is much better on the newly released Columbia Masterworks edition and on the Pristine version: https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8907217--wagner-die-walkure-act-iii
> https://www.pristineclassical.com/collections/artist-herbert-janssen/products/paco180


I was not aware of this recording, but now I'm interested. It seems it was originally released with part of Act I. ( https://www.discogs.com/release/131...ew-York-Philharmonic-Artur-Rodzinski-Die-Walk ) Has that been re-released anywhere?

Edit: Found it 
https://www.supraphonline.cz/album/633472-die-walkure-act-i-scene-3-love-duet-schlafst-du-gast


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## wkasimer

adriesba said:


> I was not aware of this recording, but now I'm interested. It seems it was originally released with part of Act I. ( https://www.discogs.com/release/131...ew-York-Philharmonic-Artur-Rodzinski-Die-Walk ) Has that been re-released anywhere?[/url]


It was reissued on LP on the Odyssey label, which I how I heard it:









As far as I know, the Act 1 scene hasn't been on CD. But I might have just missed it.


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## robertzombie

DarkAngel said:


> Great comments Chefty, since you are in wagner heaven with Walter's 35 Walkure you should get all available segments on EMI Cds, you have Act 1 on Pristine XR....for Act II very cheap $4 at Amazon, combines two performances at Vienna and Berlin 1935-36 with Seidler-Winkler scence 1,2,4 & Walter scence 3,5
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For Brunnhilde we have Fuchs, but look at Wotan a very young Hans Hotter, this is crazzzzyyyyy must buy, the birth of a Wotan legend
> 
> Sorry no act III.....
> 
> There is a 2CD Naxos release that has both Act I, II together, Obert-Thorn restoration


What's the current consensus on the best sounding restoration of this recording? Spotify has the Naxos version and a 2006 ART remaster on EMI, but not the earlier References version. A quick comparison seems to favour the Naxos, but I'd be curious to know the thoughts of those with more experience with this recording!


----------



## wkasimer

robertzombie said:


> What's the current consensus on the best sounding restoration of this recording? Spotify has the Naxos version and a 2006 ART remaster on EMI, but not the earlier References version. A quick comparison seems to favour the Naxos, but I'd be curious to know the thoughts of those with more experience with this recording!


I have the Naxos, and recall that it sounded better than the References CD. I also recall that in order to fit the entire act on one CD, EMI cut a short passage that is included on the Naxos.

It's also complete on a comprehensive Melchior anthology on Danacord, but I assume that's OOP.


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## Music Snob

robertzombie said:


> What's the current consensus on the best sounding restoration of this recording? Spotify has the Naxos version and a 2006 ART remaster on EMI, but not the earlier References version. A quick comparison seems to favour the Naxos, but I'd be curious to know the thoughts of those with more experience with this recording!


Both are good, but given a choice I would go with the NAXOS.


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## 89Koechel

kas - Your Nov. 17th post, 'bout Traubel, Darcy, et. al. - I might have a CD of this, and will try to find it. In ANY case, Ms. Traubel, in this long-ago LP reissue, is probably at her BEST. Of course, her Met performance, with Mr. Melchior in the complete Die Walkure ... is, easily, one of the great performances ... Wagner or otherwise ... of any age.


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## msmmsm

Hello all - I am new to TalkClassical in particular, and to online Forums in general, so please forgive any ignorance I have of how things work in Forums. This thread seems closest to my interests, so I would like to introduce myself. I am interested and listen to all opera, but my focus is largely and heavily on Wagner. I am trying to collect the best of the Wagner full-opera CDs, and found along the way for some reason that I especially like the Golden Melodram Wagner releases as a collectable series. The only one that seems really hard to find is Lohengrin Keilberth 1953 GM 1.0056. I have not seen it and cannot find it anywhere except in catalogues. Does anyone know how many were sold, whether it is the hardest to find for everyone, and what it tends to sell for (the range)? Thank you, in advance to any who may reply.


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## Barbebleu

Parsifal - Bayreuth 26 August 1969. King, Dvorakova, Crass, Stewart, Nienstedt, conducted by Horst Stein. Wonderful performance by all concerned. Stewart, in particular, is immense as Amfortas and King and Dvorakova are excellent throughout and tremendous in Act 2. Franz Crass is a delight as Gurnemanz bringing a warmth of tone and real gravitas to this taxing rôle. Highly recommended. 

I have just ordered the companion version from August 6th which has Gwyneth Jones as Kundry and Gerd Feldhoff as Amfortas so it will be interesting to compare the two versions. If I remember I will report back!


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## msmmsm

Thanks for suggestions. Did you mean 7/26/69 (as per Wagnerdisco) for the first Parsifal? Looks like it is only available from Opera Depot, whose operations are 'off-line' for 6-8 months at this time, apparently (message on his website). For the second one, please, what label is it released on?


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## Barbebleu

msmmsm said:


> Thanks for suggestions. Did you mean 7/26/69 (as per Wagnerdisco) for the first Parsifal? Looks like it is only available from Opera Depot, whose operations are 'off-line' for 6-8 months at this time, apparently (message on his website). For the second one, please, what label is it released on?


My bad. I did indeed mean 26 July! the second one is also Opera Depot. I download so the cd closedown doesn't affect me. You can still get the downloads. He also has an alternative 1970 Parsifal which is from 2nd August. The official DG Boulez 1970 release was a composite of various nights.


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## msmmsm

Thanks - good to know. On "my bad" - not at all. As I used to say, if that is the worst thing to happen to you in your life, you have a pretty good life". Best - msmmsm (I am new to Forums - do people never use real names?)


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## Barbebleu

msmmsm said:


> Thanks - good to know. On "my bad" - not at all. As I used to say, if that is the worst thing to happen to you in your life, you have a pretty good life". Best - msmmsm (I am new to Forums - do people never use real names?)


Very rarely do people use their real names on forums. Never really sure why not. I'm sure that telling people my first name isn't going to allow me to be tracked down!:lol: I suppose you lose that anonymity if you reveal your true name and people like that security of not being known.


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## Woodduck

Barbebleu said:


> Very rarely do people use their real names on forums. Never really sure why not. I'm sure that telling people my first name isn't going to allow me to be tracked down!:lol: I suppose you lose that anonymity if you reveal your true name and people like that security of not being known.


Speaking only for myself, I like several things about not using my real name. 1.) I can feel mysterious. 2.) I can confer knowledge of my identity on those whom I choose. 3.) I can look like Tito Schipa, be thirty forever, have bedroom eyes and all my hair.


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## Barbebleu

Woodduck said:


> Speaking only for myself, I like several things about not using my real name. 1.) I can feel mysterious. 2.) I can confer knowledge of my identity on those whom I choose. 3.) I can look like Tito Schipa, be thirty forever, have bedroom eyes and all my hair.


You mean Woodduck isn't your real name? Drat, another illusion shattered.


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## msmmsm

Thanks for all this valuable information. Now I feel bad for specifying such a boring name - msmmsm - seeing that all of you have such interesting names. and, oh, those are not your real photos? oh my. I was thinking, such an interesting looking group of people. As I said, completely new to forums, but liking these conversations. all the comments are respectful and polite, with lots of room for differences of opinion.


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## Barbebleu

msmmsm said:


> Thanks for all this valuable information. Now I feel bad for specifying such a boring name - msmmsm - seeing that all of you have such interesting names. and, oh, those are not your real photos? oh my. I was thinking, such an interesting looking group of people. As I said, completely new to forums, but liking these conversations. all the comments are respectful and polite, with lots of room for differences of opinion.


Ah, the naivety of the newbie! Join a modern music thread and see how polite and respectful people are there. 

Btw, my avatar is the great Ornette Coleman.


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## msmmsm

I looked up Ornette Coleman - impressive career - Pulitzer, McArthur, he was called important and controversial. You can't be important and cutting edge without being controversial - like Wagner and many others. Corollary - you can't be important and cutting edge unless you are controversial.


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## vivalagentenuova

It's not as good as the Melchior/Lehmann obviously, but this is a nice recording of _Walkure_ Act I I came across.


----------



## Itullian

A Christmas present to me


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## The Conte

Itullian said:


> A Christmas present to me


Shouldn't you have waited until the fifth day of Christmas?

FIVE GOLD RINGS!

N.


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## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> A Christmas present to me


Can you put me on your Christmas present list please? I'll give you a short list of my requirements. :lol:


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## hammeredklavier

Barbebleu said:


> Can you put me on your Christmas present list please? I'll give you a short list of my requirements. :lol:


Awww... Here's a doll for you, Mr. Barbie:


----------



## Barbebleu

hammeredklavier said:


> Awww... Here's a doll for you, Mr. Barbie:


That would be a crap present to get!:lol:


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## adriesba

Has anyone heard the Furtwängler _Tristan und Isolde_ from Warner's new Furtwängler box? I believe it's a new remastering from the original tapes. Not sure what source the previous issues used, but I was wondering how the new remaster compares.


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## The Conte

adriesba said:


> Has anyone heard the Furtwängler _Tristan und Isolde_ from Warner's new Furtwängler box? I believe it's a new remastering from the original tapes. Not sure what source the previous issues used, but I was wondering how the new remaster compares.


I have the new set. It's a marvel. It's cleaner and clearer than the previous EMI release. The same applies to the Walkure and Fidelio that are also in the box. They've done a superb job with this set.

N.


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## HenryPenfold

The Conte said:


> I have the new set. It's a marvel. It's cleaner and clearer than the previous EMI release. The same applies to the Walkure and Fidelio that are also in the box. They've done a superb job with this set.
> 
> N.


I had the original EMI CDs but gave it away when I bought the Naxos remaster, which is far superior. I recently bought the Pristine Classical remaster, which is better again. Would be nice if the latest EMI remaster were to be available separately.


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## Parsifal98

I've heard snippets of this new remastering and while they managed to erase the sound of a falling object at the beginning of the Liebestod, new distortion sounds seem to have emerged just before the climax. I do not know if it is intrinsic to the remaster or if it simply is a problem with Itunes. Otherwise, the sound seems on par with Pristine, and the cover is much prettier.


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## PMarlowe

robertzombie said:


> What's the current consensus on the best sounding restoration of this recording? Spotify has the Naxos version and a 2006 ART remaster on EMI, but not the earlier References version. A quick comparison seems to favour the Naxos, but I'd be curious to know the thoughts of those with more experience with this recording!


It's definitely Spotify and not some other streaming service? I have Spotify and cannot find the Naxos version. I've used just about every key word I can think of.


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## adriesba

PMarlowe said:


> It's definitely Spotify and not some other streaming service? I have Spotify and cannot find the Naxos version. I've used just about every key word I can think of.


I don't see it on Spotify either. I'm wondering if there could be a regional copyright. I don't really ever see any Naxos Historical issues on streaming services.


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## wkasimer

Re the Furtwangler Tristan und Isolde:



HenryPenfold said:


> I had the original EMI CDs but gave it away when I bought the Naxos remaster, which is far superior. I recently bought the Pristine Classical remaster, which is better again. Would be nice if the latest EMI remaster were to be available separately.


I can't comment about the original EMI transfer (I no longer own it) or the new remaster in the new box (which I'm not planning to purchase) or the Pristine issue (because it's overpriced). But I do own the Naxos issue and the 2001 EMI GROC reissue, and did an A:B comparison yesterday on a few passages from the end of Act 1. The sonic difference is so subtle as to be virtually imperceptible.


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## vincula

I've got the Naxos one, mainly because it was an offer I couldn't reject, and I'm happy with the sound. Wish they had included the printed material that comes along with the EMI GROC reissue though. 

Regards,

Vincula


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## HenryPenfold

robertzombie said:


> What's the current consensus on the best sounding restoration of this recording? Spotify has the Naxos version and a 2006 ART remaster on EMI, but not the earlier References version. A quick comparison seems to favour the Naxos, but I'd be curious to know the thoughts of those with more experience with this recording!


This afternoon I've been listening to Act 1 via Qobuz streaming and the EMI Reference earlier release sounds much better to my ears. The Warner Classics later re-issue is less clear on top and the Naxos sounds muffled to my ears. YMMV


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## PMarlowe

adriesba said:


> I don't see it on Spotify either. I'm wondering if there could be a regional copyright. I don't really ever see any Naxos Historical issues on streaming services.


I went ahead and bought it through Jpc.de. The later-recorded act III is on Spotify.


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## adriesba

PMarlowe said:


> I went ahead and bought it through Jpc.de. The later-recorded act III is on Spotify.


I didn't think there was an Act III recording??


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## Itullian

The Kempe finally got here!!!!!!!
The adventure begins!!!!!!!!


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## OffPitchNeb

^I have this set and quite enjoy it. The young Nilsson, Hoffgen, Hines, and Frick stand out among the cast for me.


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## Granate

Recently acquired Keilberth 1952 and 1953 Bayreuth Rings for 21 and 42€ each, new and "sealed". I should try them soon in the future but I need to revisit the Opera videos to remember the libretto and regie.

That completes my Martha Mödl Götterdämmerung collection on CD. 3rd Norn and Gutrüne (1952), Brünnhilde (1953) and Waltraute (1967).


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## Itullian

Granate said:


> Recently acquired Keilberth 1952 and 1953 Bayreuth Rings for 21 and 42€ each, new and "sealed". I should try them soon in the future but I need to revisit the Opera videos to remember the libretto and regie.
> 
> That completes my Martha Mödl Götterdämmerung collection on CD. 3rd Norn and Gutrüne (1952), Brünnhilde (1953) and Waltraute (1967).


Both the 52 and 53 are excellent with good sound,


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## Peer Gynt 2

Currently beginning to spin again the Furtwangler RAI Ring from 1953 in the release from Membran. The sound on this cheapo edition is to these ears better than the EMI release and clearly much fuller than the bass-absent, harsh Gebhardt release, which I had to jettison shortly after purchasing.


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## Peer Gynt 2

...starting with Rheingold of course.


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## OffPitchNeb

​
Martha Mödl was featured in two 1955 excerpts, Act III of Siegfried (with Windgassen and Keilberth) and Act II of Parsifal (with Vinay and Knapperbusch). Not being a fan of Mödl's Isolde, Brünnhilde, and Kundry due to her unconventional vocal production, I had not expected much from this set beforehand. However, sound engineering was so good that it made all the difference. Knappertbusch's trademark magical interpretation was made alive like in no other Parsifal I had (and I am a Parsifal collector), even more so than his later stereo.

The high quality of the remastering also made her timbre less harsh, enabling the listeners to focus on her forte as a singing actress. She screeched on the high-C at the end of Siegfried (what other sopranos except Nilsson did not struggle with this note?), but her reading throughout the duet could be the most erotic among all Brunnhilde's. And, of course, her concept of Kundry couldn't be challenged.

In sum, a highly recommended set. 10/10 for the sound engineers.


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## Woodduck

OffPitchNeb said:


> View attachment 163811​
> Martha Mödl was featured in two 1955 excerpts, Act III of Siegfried (with Windgassen and Keilberth) and Act II of Parsifal (with Vinay and Knapperbusch). Not being a fan of Mödl's Isolde, Brünnhilde, and Kundry due to her unconventional vocal production, I had not expected much from this set beforehand. However, sound engineering was so good that it made all the difference. Knappertbusch's trademark magical interpretation was made alive like in no other Parsifal I had (and I am a Parsifal collector), even more so than his later stereo.
> 
> The high quality of the remastering also made her timbre less harsh, enabling the listeners to focus on her forte as a singing actress. She screeched on the high-C at the end of Siegfried (what other sopranos except Nilsson did not struggle with this note?), but her reading throughout the duet could be the most erotic among all Brunnhilde's. And, of course, her concept of Kundry couldn't be challenged.
> 
> In sum, a highly recommended set. 10/10 for the sound engineers.


Modl's artistry has to be conceded even by those of us for whom her "unconventional vocal production" makes her hard to listen to. Some called her the greatest Isolde they ever saw. I can believe that. Now if I could just make myself listen to her... It's a pity we didn't start getting videos out of Bayreuth until her career (and Wieland Wagner's, even more so) was past.


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## DarkAngel

> *Modl's artistry has to be conceded* even by those of us for whom her "unconventional vocal production" makes her hard to listen to. Some called her the greatest Isolde they ever saw. I can believe that. Now if I could just make myself listen to her...


























Nice to have that 55 Siegfried Act 3, I especially love the awakening of Brunnhilde aria "heil dir sonne", this gives a near complete record of her 55 Bayreuth season Brunnhilde when combined with two stereo Testament full operas shown....her passion and artistry win me over every time


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## The Conte

DarkAngel said:


> Nice to have that 55 Siegfried Act 3, I especially love the awakening of Brunnhilde aria "heil dir sonne", this gives a near complete record of her 55 Bayreuth season Brunnhilde when combined with two stereo Testament full operas shown....her passion and artistry win me over every time


Doesn't it mean we now have her complete 55 Bayreuth Brunhilde? I will be buying this and I will add the Siegfried act III to the first two acts featuring the A cast.

N.


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## The Conte

Woodduck said:


> Modl's artistry has to be conceded even by those of us for whom her "unconventional vocal production" makes her hard to listen to. Some called her the greatest Isolde they ever saw. I can believe that. Now if I could just make myself listen to her... It's a pity we didn't start getting videos out of Bayreuth until her career (and Wieland Wagner's, even more so) was past.


Ah, but you have Nilsson to listen to! I have a personal dislike of Nilsson's voice in Wagner, whilst I recognise her greatness (and that it was a great voice no matter what she was singing). Therefore, it's wonderful for me to be able to listen to and enjoy Modl. That said, I do have recordings of Nilsson in Wagner as I feel they are essential library items.

N.


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## kineno

Doesn't it mean we now have her complete 55 Bayreuth Brunhilde? I will be buying this and I will add the Siegfried act III to the first two acts featuring the A cast.

We can pretty well simulate the whole cycle II, by adding Rheingold cycle I and Siegfried, Acts 1 & 2, cycle I, as I believe the casts of the two cycles were identical with the exception of the Brünnhildes. This new release allows one to fill in the missing gap.


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## Woodduck

The Conte said:


> Ah, but you have Nilsson to listen to! I have a personal dislike of Nilsson's voice in Wagner, whilst I recognise her greatness (and that it was a great voice no matter what she was singing). Therefore, it's wonderful for me to be able to listen to and enjoy Modl. That said, I do have recordings of Nilsson in Wagner as I feel they are essential library items.
> 
> N.


Well, I do like Nilsson's voice in the big roles - nobody manages the climaxes better - but hers isn't my favorite Wagner voice. That would probably be Flagstad's in her prime, with Leider a close runner-up. All three singers have freely produced voices that don't make me think of pressurized air slowly released from a balloon or squeezed through a rubber hose.

Hmmm... It's been a while since I checked my tires.


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## OffPitchNeb

^ I hear you, friends, and glad you will be able to assemble a full Modl cycle.

Am I the only one who prefers three separate Brunnhilde in a cycle? 

I like the Walkure Brunnhilde to be cool and even detached since she is a law-abiding death maiden who just comes to terms with human passion, and this would create a nice contrast to fervent Sieglinde. The ideal Walkure Brunnhilde for me is Nilsson and the young Flagstad.

The Siegfried Brunnhilde must be sensous and seductive. As I stated above, Modl did a good job despite her less than pleasant voice. The historical excerpts from Frida Leider and Germaine Lubin are my favorite.

The Gotterdammerung Brunnhilde is supposed to be earthy, womanly, and maniac. Again, Modl did well in some recordings, but my favorite would be Martha Fuchs (Elmendorff, 1942 live) and, surprisingly, Nilsson (Böhm, 1967 live).


----------



## OffPitchNeb

Woodduck said:


> Well, I do like Nilsson's voice in the big roles - nobody manages the climaxes better - but hers isn't my favorite Wagner voice. That would probably be Flagstad's in her prime, with Leider a close runner-up. All three singers have freely produced voices that don't *make me think of pressurized air slowly released from a balloon or squeezed through a rubber hose.
> 
> Hmmm... It's been a while since I checked my tires.*


Haha! But it's also quite true. The way Modl sings sometimes reminds me of Netrebko (sorry madame Modl, I know this comparison is an undeserving insult to you and to any major singers). Too much air leaked out!


----------



## Woodduck

OffPitchNeb said:


> ^ I hear you, friends, and glad you will be able to assemble a full Modl cycle.
> 
> Am I the only one who prefers three separate Brunnhilde in a cycle?
> 
> I like the Walkure Brunnhilde to be cool and even detached since she is a law-abiding death maiden who just comes to terms with human passion, and this would create a nice contrast to fervent Sieglinde. The ideal Walkure Brunnhilde for me is Nilsson and the young Flagstad.
> 
> *The Siegfried Brunnhilde must be sensous and seductive.* As I stated above, Modl did a good job despite her less than pleasant voice. The historical excerpts from Frida Leider and Germaine Lubin are my favorite.
> 
> The Gotterdammerung Brunnhilde is supposed to be earthy, womanly, and maniac. Again, Modl did well in some recordings, but my favorite would be Martha Fuchs (Elmendorff, 1942 live) and, surprisingly, Nilsson (Böhm, 1967 live).


Brunnhilde in _Siegfried_ is anything but seductive. It's testosterone-driven Siegfried whose ardor overcomes her fear of being merely human and of doing something with a man besides announcing his death and transporting his corpse to Valhalla.


----------



## OffPitchNeb

Woodduck said:


> Brunnhilde in _Siegfried_ is anything but seductive. It's testosterone-driven Siegfried whose ardor overcomes her fear of being merely human and of doing something with a man besides announcing his death and transporting his corpse to Valhalla.


Maybe seductive is the wrong word or more like seductive to the ears. What I meant is the entire scene should be erotic (you know, a horny teenager and his aunt), something one probably couldn't feel with the wobble of the late Varnay and Gwyneth Jones.


----------



## Woodduck

OffPitchNeb said:


> Maybe seductive is the wrong word or more like seductive to the ears. What I meant is the entire scene should be erotic (you know, a horny teenager and his aunt), something one probably couldn't feel with the wobble of the late Varnay and Gwyneth Jones.


Agreed. Siegfried and Brunnhilde should both sound young and sexy. Good luck with that.


----------



## Itullian

Woodduck said:


> Agreed. Siegfried and Brunnhilde should both sound young and sexy. Good luck with that.


:lol:...........................


----------



## lextune

OffPitchNeb said:


> ^ I hear you, friends, and glad you will be able to assemble a full Modl cycle.
> 
> Am I the only one who prefers three separate Brunnhilde in a cycle?
> 
> I like the Walkure Brunnhilde to be cool and even detached since she is a law-abiding death maiden who just comes to terms with human passion, and this would create a nice contrast to fervent Sieglinde. The ideal Walkure Brunnhilde for me is Nilsson and the young Flagstad.
> 
> The Siegfried Brunnhilde must be sensous and seductive. As I stated above, Modl did a good job despite her less than pleasant voice. The historical excerpts from Frida Leider and Germaine Lubin are my favorite.
> 
> The Gotterdammerung Brunnhilde is supposed to be earthy, womanly, and maniac. Again, Modl did well in some recordings, but my favorite would be Martha Fuchs (Elmendorff, 1942 live) and, surprisingly, Nilsson (Böhm, 1967 live).


This is an interesting perspective.

Do you know Karajan's Ring? He used two different singers for Brunnhilde. Regine Crespin in Walkure is quite a bit 'softer' than most other Brunnhilde interpretations. And Helga Dernesch is sort of wild (still probably 'softer' than most) in Siegfried and Götterdämmerung.


----------



## Music Snob

I actually feel like Astrid Varnay nails the “manic/maniac” aspect. Very strong voice and singing, even if flawed. Knappertsbusch conducts her quite well IMO.


----------



## OffPitchNeb

lextune said:


> This is an interesting perspective.
> 
> Do you know Karajan's Ring? He used two different singers for Brunnhilde. Regine Crespin in Walkure is quite a bit 'softer' than most other Brunnhilde interpretations. And Helga Dernesch is sort of wild (still probably 'softer' than most) in Siegfried and Götterdämmerung.


I know! He even casted two singers (Höngen and Ludwig) for Kundry in Parsifal. I do like Crespin in Die Walkure and Dernesch in Gotterdammerung.


----------



## Woodduck

Music Snob said:


> I actually feel like Astrid Varnay nails the "manic/maniac" aspect. Very strong voice and singing, even if flawed. Knappertsbusch conducts her quite well IMO.


It was her specialty, and the reason why her best role was Ortrud. Definitely a sound that could break up a marriage made in heaven.


----------



## The Conte

Woodduck said:


> It was her specialty, and the reason why her best role was Ortrud. Definitely a sound that could break up a marriage made in heaven.


I agree that her best role was Ortrud. Have you heard her Elektra? (It's another role that needs something of the manic about it.)

N.


----------



## Woodduck

The Conte said:


> I agree that her best role was Ortrud. Have you heard her Elektra? (It's another role that needs something of the manic about it.)
> 
> N.


I started listening to her Elektra, but I'm not fond of the opera and didn't get very far into the recording. No doubt a good role for Varnay, but if I'm going to persist through the whole show I really need a voice that pleases me more.


----------



## Barbebleu

I’m listening to Holländer, Bayreuth 22 July 1955, Knappertsbusch, Uhde, Varnay, Windgassen, Traxel, Weber. At the risk of being a heretic I’m not particularly impressed or moved by this production. I don’t think that Uhde is in his best voice and Kna’s continual tampering with the tempi just winds my wool. The chorus is good as always and the rest of the principals are ok. I’ll persevere to the end but it’s a bit of a chore. 

Perhaps it’s me as the weather is just desperate here and I’m thoroughly brassed off. I think I’ll stop listening after the Spinning Chorus and return to it when I’m in a better frame of mind.


----------



## Woodduck

Barbebleu said:


> I'm listening to Holländer, Bayreuth 22 July 1955, Knappertsbusch, Uhde, Varnay, Windgassen, Traxel, Weber. At the risk of being a heretic I'm not particularly impressed or moved by this production. I don't think that Uhde is in his best voice and Kna's continually tampering with the tempi just winds my wool. The chorus is good as always and the rest of the principals are ok. I'll persevere to the end but it's a bit of a chore.
> 
> Perhaps it's me as the weather is just desperate here and I'm thoroughly brassed off. I think I'll stop listening after the Spinning Chorus and return to it when I'm in a better frame of mind.


Heretics are always welcome.

I haven't heard that recording in so long I don't remember it well, but I know I was more impressed by Knappertsbusch and the Bayreuth chorus and orchestra than by most of the principals. I found Kna's weighty reading powerful, and I've always found Uhde compelling, but Ludwig Weber was way past his prime by 1955, Varnay was too and didn't sound remotely like a young girl, and Windgassen had nothing like the bel canto elegance to do justice to the old-fashioned style of Erik's arias (like most tenors who attempt them, unfortunately).

I've never heard a satisfactory performance of this opera, which would seem quite a bit easier to realize than Wagner's later works.


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## wkasimer

Woodduck said:


> Heretics are always welcome.
> 
> I haven't heard that recording in so long I don't remember it well, but I know I was more impressed by Knappertsbusch and the Bayreuth chorus and orchestra than by most of the principals. I found Kna's weighty reading powerful, and I've always found Uhde compelling, but Ludwig Weber was way past his prime by 1955, Varnay was too and didn't sound remotely like a young girl,


Varnay was only 37 in 1955. To be honest, she never sounded like a young girl, even at her Met debut in 1941.


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## Woodduck

wkasimer said:


> Varnay was only 37 in 1955. To be honest, she never sounded like a young girl, even at her Met debut in 1941.


She did always sound mature, though her voice changed enough in her first decade of singing to be almost unrecognizable. I can't think of a case that's quite comparable.


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## wkasimer

Woodduck said:


> She did always sound mature, though her voice changed enough in her first decade of singing to be almost unrecognizable. I can't think of a case that's quite comparable.


Amazing to think that she and Nilsson were born in the same year. Varnay was already in vocal decline before Nilsson was really getting started.


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## Barbebleu

I put this in the current listening thread but it’s probably better served here. 

Götterdämmerung - New York Met, 1936, Bodanzky, Melchior, Lawrence, Schorr, Hoffman. 

Lawrence is a bit wavery at the start of Act 1 but soon improves. Melchior is his usual impressive self and the rest of the cast is rock solid. Even with the less than adequate sound Bodanzky shows great control and mastery of the truncated version of the score. I’m curious as to whether he instigated the cuts or he just agreed to them. It’s a good, if rather speedy, performance although the fact that it is cut to ribbons is vastly annoying.


Addendum. I see I actually reviewed this two years ago and back then I was less kind than I appear to be now. I must be more forgiving in my old age. :lol:

If anyone cares it is page 306 and post #4584.


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## OffPitchNeb

Barbebleu said:


> I put this in the current listening thread but it's probably better served here.
> 
> Götterdämmerung - New York Met, 1936, Bodanzky, Melchior, Lawrence, Schorr, Hoffman.
> 
> Lawrence is a bit wavery at the start of Act 1 but soon improves. Melchior is his usual impressive self and the rest of the cast is rock solid. Even with the less than adequate sound Bodanzky shows great control and mastery of the truncated version of the score. I'm curious as to whether he instigated the cuts or he just agreed to them. It's a good, if rather speedy, performance although the fact that it is cut to ribbons is vastly annoying.
> 
> Addendum. I see I actually reviewed this two years ago and back then I was less kind than I appear to be now. I must be more forgiving in my old age. :lol:
> 
> If anyone cares it is page 306 and post #4584.


I wished we had had more recordings of Lawrence. She also recorded a full Immolation Scene in French (from EMI set Les Introuvables Du Chant Wagnerien) and sounded amazing.


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## Barbebleu

OffPitchNeb said:


> I wished we had had more recordings of Lawrence. She also recorded a full Immolation Scene in French (from EMI set Les Introuvables Du Chant Wagnerien) and sounded amazing.


I've got that set. It's been a long time since I listened to it. I must revisit that track.


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## wkasimer

OffPitchNeb said:


> I wished we had had more recordings of Lawrence. She also recorded a full Immolation Scene in French (from EMI set Les Introuvables Du Chant Wagnerien) and sounded amazing.


There are two 1940 Walkure broadcasts that have appeared on CD - she sings Brunnhilde on one, Sieglinde on the other.


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## Itullian

This '60 Ring was first issued on the Myto label. 
Pan Classics has issued it in a nice neat clam shell box.
Excellent Ring in good mono sound.
You cant beat these old Bayreuth casts.


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## Barbebleu

Tannhäuser - Bayreuth 1962, Windgassen, Silja, Bumbry, Greindl, Stolze, Sawallisch. Excellent. This was the Phillips recording that I think is a composite of evenings. I have the 2nd August version so I will listen to that and compare.


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## amfortas

OffPitchNeb said:


> I like the Walkure Brunnhilde to be cool and even detached since she is a law-abiding death maiden who just comes to terms with human passion, and this would create a nice contrast to fervent Sieglinde.


An interesting take, but it seems too limited. "Cool," "detached," and "law-abiding" may characterize Brünnhilde initially, but are hardly sufficient over the course of _Die Walküre_. Rather than just "coming to terms" with human passion, she awakens to a previously unknown compassion within herself, so that her subsequent rebellion becomes the turning point of the opera and, arguably, the entire Ring.


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## Monsalvat

This is a point that Deryck Cooke made; he argued (and I generally agree) that the Brünnhilde/Siegmund _Todesverkündigung_ scene, in which Brünnhilde realizes what love and compassion are for the first time, is the turning point of the entire _Ring_. Wotan is divided between power (the spear and its runes, and the ring itself) and love (through Siegmund and Sieglinde). When his plan for Siegmund to conquer the ring falls through, it is only through Brünnhilde and Siegfried that love can finally get the upper hand. Until this scene, Brünnhilde is an unloving goddess, totally obedient to Wotan. It is only through the love which she discovers in this scene that she breaks with Wotan and gains the ability to perform what Wotan later calls the "erlösende Weltenthat," or the action which redeems the world. She is cool and detached at the beginning of the _Todesverkündigung_ scene but by the end of the scene she has internally transformed. (And this internal transformation is not really completed until _Siegfried_, as we see during the final duet.) And Brünnhilde has plenty of opportunities in Act III to show how this transformation has started to affect her, and how she is no longer the Brünnhilde whom Wotan greeted at the beginning of Act II.


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## amfortas

^^^ I'm glad to see Deryck Cooke finally listened to me.


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## Woodduck

amfortas said:


> ^^^ I'm glad to see Deryck Cooke finally listened to me.


You'll be even more honored to know that I'm listening to you. Deryck always listened to me.


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## Barbebleu

OffPitchNeb said:


> I wished we had had more recordings of Lawrence. She also recorded a full Immolation Scene in French (from EMI set Les Introuvables Du Chant Wagnerien) and sounded amazing.


Opera Depot have a Lohengrin from Buenos Aires, 1936 with Lawrence as Ortrud and a Parsifal from the same place and year with Lawrence as Kundry. Both conducted by Fritz Busch.


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## wkasimer

Barbebleu said:


> Opera Depot have a Lohengrin from Buenos Aires, 1936 with Lawrence as Ortrud and a Parsifal from the same place and year with Lawrence as Kundry. Both conducted by Fritz Busch.


I have both of these (Lohengrin from Archipel, Parsifal from Marston). The sound on both can charitably be called "challenging".


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## Itullian

Early May release.
Stereo


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## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> Early May release.
> Stereo


This looks interesting. I saw Seiffert as Tristan with Waltraud Meier as Isolde in Berlin 2015. He was excellent as was Meier.


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## Danielxtsau

It's supposed to be the same performance as in the big boxset…

https://www.amazon.com/Years-Wiener-Staatsoper-VARIOUS-ARTISTS/dp/B07SCHF6Y2


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## Andrew Kenneth

I have an older Welser-Möst Tristan in my collection.
(oct. 15th 1988 live)









This disc was part of a Sterling label series commemorating soprano Siv Wennberg.

Vol. 3 (Die Frau ohne Schatten) also featured Birgit Nilsson.


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## Granate

*A new handful of Tristan und Isolde recordings*

I've been enjoying life on my own the last 12 months, buying lots of classical music on CD. Some of them, Wagner recordings I didn't have on my collection. And the Opera I wanted to get more from in the end was the Tristan. But I've been so glad to acquire by chance these three historical performances (cheap and brand new):


















I would love to get one day the Leinsdorf 1941 Metropolitan performance of the opera, really dark in my memory. Instead, a 2001 Arkadia edition of the opera recorded in 1937 was on sale. Flagstad and Melchior as well, conducted by Thomas Beecham and performed by the London Philharmonic in Covent Garden. I wasn't very keen in the beginning since the latest 2014 Andromeda remaster was clean on voices but dull and dim for the orchestra. But I was perplexed that the *Arkadia LP sound absolutely improved the Andromeda experience* and let the orchestra and conductor breathe and be better appreciated in the broadcast. Strange enough, because it really doesn't match the recording dates, the sharp and rich sound quality of Act I dissappears 6 minutes from the end and it's fairly good for the whole Act II, before getting back again in Act III. Not going to spill the details about the performers, just wish Klose was more audible in Act II. But this won me over.

















I've long wanted to put my hands on the 1958 Bayreuth Tristan, sung by Birgit Nilsson but especially one of my favourite Tristan performances in Windgassen. Then it's completed by a goddesslike Grace Hoffman as Brangäne, a Kurwenal that pleases me over Hotter like Saedén, and Greindl as Marke. Traxel sings the steerman but I really wish it had been Sándor Kónya. The 2009 Myto edition in the end is the same than the 2018 Orfeo later release but the tapes used are more brilliant but rougher and full of prompter and noise during Act III. My issue is the dummy freshman conducting by a very young Wolfgang Sawallisch that doesn't fit the work yet. I don't know if I prefer this 1958 performance for singing quality or the Böhm 1966 commercial for drama.










I'm saving the latest and most rewarding purchases of all for the last. I managed to get the great Furtwängler 1952 Tristan brand new in the Edition I always wanted: the GROTC from 2001. I haven't put myself to listen to it. I'm just proud. I wanted the big booklet and the big libretto as well with that beautiful cover.

I've spent a long time updating the icon and writing this post. I'm enjoying my SHF Bruckner 8 by Günter Wand and I should leave to work out soon. I have no more time to browse through the forum anymore  Cheers and thank you for these years. I'm full time on Twitter and share my trip on Classical Music recordings in Spanish.


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## Granate

wkasimer said:


> I can't comment about the original EMI transfer (I no longer own it) or the new remaster in the new box (which I'm not planning to purchase) or the Pristine issue (because it's overpriced). But I do own the Naxos issue and the 2001 EMI GROC reissue, and did an A:B comparison yesterday on a few passages from the end of Act 1. The sonic difference is so subtle as to be virtually imperceptible.


Excerpts sound quite louder and cleaner on the 192k files compared to the 2001 in the same player. I'm kind of attracted to the new sound and EMI can seem distant.


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## Itullian

To celebrate re opening of the Vienna State Opera in 1955
with a dream cast led by Fritz Reiner.


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## wkasimer

Itullian said:


> To celebrate re opening of the Vienna State Opera in 1955
> with a dream cast led by Fritz Reiner.


With Beirer as Walther, likely more of a nightmare than a dream.


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## Barbebleu

I’m listening to this at the moment. Beirer is by no means the worst thing on this recording. That accolade would go to the thin, wavery singing conjured up by Irmgard Seefried which surprised and disappointed me in equal measure. I’ve heard her better.


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## wkasimer

Barbebleu said:


> I’m listening to this at the moment. Beirer is by no means the worst thing on this recording. That accolade would go to the thin, wavery singing conjured up by Irmgard Seefried which surprised and disappointed me in equal measure. I’ve heard her better.


For me, Seefried is at her best in Lieder. Elsewhere, I agree with your description, and find her singing unsatisfactory.


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## OffPitchNeb

I am looking for some good live/historical _Siegfried_. Any recommendations?


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## wkasimer

OffPitchNeb said:


> I am looking for some good live/historical _Siegfried_. Any recommendations?


What's your idea of "historical"?

In any event, this one is essential:


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## Barbebleu

I’ve finished Meistersinger Vienna 1955. Its an interesting historical document and for that reason I’m glad to have heard it. It was clearly an emotional evening, particularly Sach’s entrance in the final scene, but it is marred by some very variable singing. Beirer completely cracked at the beginning of the second verse of the Prize Song and Seefried is virtually anonymous. Schoeffler is pretty good and the rest of the cast are adequate. Sadly I can’t say that it is anywhere near essential listening.


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## wkasimer

Barbebleu said:


> I’ve finished Meistersinger Vienna 1955. Its an interesting historical document and for that reason I’m glad to have heard it. It was clearly an emotional evening, particularly Sach’s entrance in the final scene, but it is marred by some very variable singing. Beirer completely cracked at the beginning of the second verse of the Prize Song and Seefried is virtually anonymous. Schoeffler is pretty good and the rest of the cast are adequate. Sadly I can’t say that it is anywhere near essential listening.


Schoeffler can be heard in much better surroundings - Abendroth 1943 among others.


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## damianjb1

I've recently discovered this recording and I completely understand why it's held in such high esteem.


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## Barbebleu

wkasimer said:


> Schoeffler can be heard in much better surroundings - Abendroth 1943 among others.


Yes I’ve heard that recording. Pretty good for its age.


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## OffPitchNeb

wkasimer said:


> What's your idea of "historical"?
> 
> In any event, this one is essential:
> 
> View attachment 169983


Thanks. Great cast. Does this Naxos transfer sound better than this one?


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## wkasimer

Just an FYI. Opera Depot's free download this week is (or was) the 1961 Bayreuth Meistersinger conducted by Krips. Myto issue this performance, but botched it badly, using the 1957 broadcast with a different cast for a significant portion of the opera. I just did a spot-check of the Opera Depot download, and it appears to be consistently the correct cast, and (presumably) a complete broadcast of the 1961 Krips performance.


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## PedroHz

Shamefully, it appears this recording will never be released.
It is unfortunate, as Heater seemed with his voice in relatively good condition.

Sorry if this has been posted before.


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## Barbebleu

Listening to Tristan, Bayreuth 1968. Nilsson, Windgassen, Talvella, Feldhoff, Hoffman, Böhm. It is ok. I would say workmanlike without being in any way transcendent. Everything is well sung and well played but to my ears it lacks magic. This was Nilsson’s third last year at Bayreuth. She sang Isolde in 1969 and sang her last Bayreuth Isolde in 1970. Maybe I’ve heard too many Tristans over the last fifty years and I’m getting jaded. I don’t know.


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## Itullian

A must have STEREO historical recording.


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## hammeredklavier

Itullian said:


> A must have STEREO historical recording.






"In 2008 Orfeo released this excellent sounding stereo broadcast using the master tapes from Bayerischer Rundfunk, featuring Waldemar Kmentt's Stolzing debut and Theo Adam's first Bayreuth Sachs, jumping in for Walter Berry after the dress rehearsal. Amazingly, Orfeo did not pay attention to tape speed at all, and acts one and two were up to a quarter-tone flat (a=335 Hz instead of 447 Hz) with rather strong pitch drift. Act three however was almost perfectly and consitently at a=447 Hz. I restored pitch of all three acts to a=447 Hz." -HC Leskov-Fischer


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## LeoPiano

The other day on the channel hammeredklavier just shared, I found the complete Japanese EMI edition of the Furtwangler RAI Ring, re-pitched by HC Leskov-Fischer. I have no idea if his re-pitching is accurate since I know nothing about the different pitches orchestras used at the time, but it is very nice to hear the Japanese remastering for free on YouTube.


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## Woodduck

LeoPiano said:


>


Are they waiting for the Vatican to go up in flames?


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## OffPitchNeb

I'm sure this was posted here before, but I want to do it again. Cobelli, Zanelli, and Stignani rocked. Why was Cobelli not more famous? Stignani doesn't seem to get much love in this forum since I keep seeing people calling her singing matronly in other threads. Maybe she was older in these performances, but here her Brangane is better than most.






P/S: It was a shame that the de Sabata's full Tristan (1951) was in horrendous sound, and I am not sure if I like Grob-Prandl that much.


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## msmmsm

silentio said:


> Could anyone please suggest the best edition of this *1936 Parsifal with Fritz Busch/René Maison/ Marjorie Lawrence* ?
> 
> I tried Act II out this afternoon on YouTube and was amazed by Lawrence's strong presentation. She actually "sang" the role instead of resorting to the often-heard shrieks, screams, and moans in nowadays portraits. Plus she sounded so young (she _was _young, a 29 year old rising star at that time), unlike the grand-dame-like styles of many mezzo in the role.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P/S *Bill H.* dear, did you by any chance re-master this Parsifal  ?


I have been looking for an original version of the 1936 Parsifal from Buenos Aires (Busch) on Marston Records, and see that Marston is offering a CDR replacement because the originals are sold out. My question is, on the used market (Amazon, ebay, etc.), is there any way to tell from the outside (photos of front or back inserts or the sides) whether the set contains the original CD, or the replacement CDR?


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## Admiral

Opera Depot has a new Ring from 1956 - anyone heard it?

*Wagner: Der Ring des Nibelungen - Varnay, Hotter, Windgassen, Brouwenstijn, Greindl, Madeira, Neidlinger; Knappertsbusch. Bayreuth, 1956*


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## Admiral

For those who don't already have them, the (formerly) crazy-priced Testament 1950s Rings have come down in price so a good time to jump on them if you still listen to CDs. I found decent pricing on Amazon


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## Barbebleu

Admiral said:


> Opera Depot has a new Ring from 1956 - anyone heard it?
> 
> *Wagner: Der Ring des Nibelungen - Varnay, Hotter, Windgassen, Brouwenstijn, Greindl, Madeira, Neidlinger; Knappertsbusch. Bayreuth, 1956*


Frankly I can’t remember if I’ve heard this or I’m confusing it with the ‘57 and ‘58 Rings which I know I’ve definitely heard. I have all the Bayreuth Rings from ‘52 to ‘77 (not all listened to yet) so you’ll have to forgive me if I can’t recall every one that I’ve heard. Cast wise it’s up there with the great fifties outings but if you haven’t got it then, at the price, get it.


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## Itullian

Barbebleu said:


> Frankly I can’t remember if I’ve heard this or I’m confusing it with the ‘57 and ‘58 Rings which I know I’ve definitely heard. I have all the Bayreuth Rings from ‘52 to ‘77 (not all listened to yet) so you’ll have to forgive me if I can’t recall every one that I’ve heard. Cast wise it’s up there with the great fifties outings but if you haven’t got it then, at the price, get it.


Is it the same as this one, which i have and is great?


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## Admiral

Hmmm, Opera Depot guy doesn't ( to my knowledge ) reissue anything; his speciality is finding old tapes and issuing them. This recording is from August 13th - 17th


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## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> Is it the same as this one, which i have and is great?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/QUOTE


Does this set give the performance dates. Orfeo aren’t too bad at giving recording details.


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## Itullian

Barbebleu said:


> Does this set give the performance dates. Orfeo aren’t too bad at giving recording details.


Rheingold 13 August 1956
Walkure 14 August 1956
Siegfried 15 August 1956
Gotterdammerung 17 August 1956


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## Barbebleu

Itullian said:


> Rheingold 13 August 1956
> Walkure 14 August 1956
> Siegfried 15 August 1956
> Gotterdammerung 17 August 1956


Same set as the Opera Depot set then! Same dates.


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## Admiral

Same dates for sure; maybe he has a different source? I'll reach out and ask


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## Barbebleu

I’ve recently finished listening to Das Rheingold from Buenos Aires 1947 with Erich Kleiber conducting. Very good even allowing for the sonic imbalances which means that the voices sometimes get swamped by the orchestra. But there is some very fine singing on offer from the likes of Janssen and Svanholm as Wotan and Loge, Roberto Maggiolo and Fred Destal as Mime and Alberich and Emanuel List as a great Fafner. The three Rhinemaidens are superbly sung and Kleiber pushes it along nicely. The Teatro Colón orchestra have a few wayward moments but on the whole are very listenable. All in all a pretty good Rheingold.


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## ewilkros

For decades about 84 minutes of the following have been circulating --

*Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg by Richard Wagner performed in German*
*Conductor Thomas Beecham - 1951(Acts 1&2;Long Excerpts)
Orchestra - Covent Garden
Chorus - Covent Garden*


> *Hans Sachs - Hans Hotter
> Veit Pogner - Ludwig Weber
> Sixtus Beckmesser - Benno Kusche
> Fritz Kothner - Rhoderick (Rhydderch) Davies
> Walther von Stolzing - Peter Anders
> David - Murray Dickie
> Eva - Elisabeth Grümmer
> Magdalena - Constance Shacklock
> Nachtwächter - Geraint Evans
> Kunz Vogelgesang - Edgar Evans
> Konrad Nachtigall - Ernest Davies
> Ulrich Eisslinger - Dennis Stephenson
> Balthasar Zorn - Emlyn Jones
> Augustin Moser - David Tree
> Hermann Ortel - Marian Nowakowski
> Hans Schwarz - Charles Morris
> Hans Foltz - Ronald Lewis*


in sound about like this:


Spoiler: Tabulatur and "Fanget an" to end of Act I











now I find this, from a Gebhardt issue (1 CD) about 20 years ago that I missed--






Clearly the same home recording as always, but now "worked on" with some success. Is all of the Gebhardt this much better? Has a superior (and [more] complete) source appeared since?


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## gardibolt

Admiral said:


> Same dates for sure; maybe he has a different source? I'll reach out and ask


The Orfeo discs are from the BR master tapes so anything else is almost perforce inferior (or swiped from the Orfeo).


----------

