# Help, Meistersinger addiction.



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

just ordered my 8th recording.
listening constantly.
recs?

anyone else have an opera addiction?


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Itullian said:


> just ordered my 8th recording.
> listening constantly.
> recs?
> 
> anyone else have an opera addiction?


Meistersinger truly matures like a fine wine the more you listen. I am watching it this week but I'm not addicted.

I am still quite addicted to Tristan, far more dangerous addiction than Meistersinger as the emotional toll it takes can't be healthy. I have 9 recordings, had 10 last week but destroyed and threw one out in a fit of rage (very disagreeable video direction).


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

17 DVDs and 5 Cds of Don Giovanni.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

At least 20 Rings here.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

The only cure for Meistersinger-mania is Tristan und Isolde.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> The only cure for Meistersinger-mania is Tristan und Isolde.


What is the cure for Tristan und Isolde-mania?
_
Unsre Liebe?
Tristans Liebe?
Dein' und mein',
Isoldes Liebe?
Welches Todes Streichen
könnte je sie weichen?_


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

What is the cure for Tristan und Isolde-mania?

Sorry Couchie but its terminal... no known cure.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Large doses of _Die Zauberflöte, Don Giovanni_, and _Le Nozze di Figaro_ may lead to a degree of remission and a temporary relief from symptoms... but eventually the mania will raise its ugly head again.:devil:


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Itullian said:


> just ordered my 8th recording.
> listening constantly.
> recs?
> 
> anyone else have an opera addiction?


Try a twelve-step group. There is one for everything. Maybe also look into the twelve-step group for compulsive shoppers


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

As long as its not a twelve-tone twelve step group.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

it was the Karajan. the "great recordings" version became available new, so i had to.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

And I thought my dozen recordings (LP, CD, and DVD) of _Fidelio_, including its original version, were an addiction. Seems I have nothing on mamascarlatti's _Don Giovanni _craving and bigshot's _Ring_ habit.:lol:

Come to think of it, there are a few more recordings of _Fidelio_ I really ought to acquire . . .


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

listened to 3 today. Varviso, Solti, Sawallisch. all great.
really warming to Sawallisch and Varviso.


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

(I'm sure you'll make the interpretative leap)


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

hilarious..........


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> What is the cure for Tristan und Isolde-mania?
> 
> Sorry Couchie but its terminal... no known cure.


But our love,
is it not Tristan & Isolde
_and_ Couchie?
This sweet little word: _and_,
would death not destroy
the bonds of love
which it entwines
if Couchie were to die?

What could die
but that which troubles us,
preventing Couchie
from ever loving Tristan und Isolde,
forever loving only Wagner?

Yet this little word: _and_,
were it destroyed,
how else but together
with Couchie's own life
would death be given to _Tristan_?

Thus might we die,
that together,
ever one,
without end,
never waking,
never fearing,
namelessly
enveloped in love,
given up to each other,
to live only for love!


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

roses are red
violets are blue
operas are sweet
but Meistersinger rules


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## Roberto (Jul 17, 2010)

possible cure:

a) spend a whole day doing nothing but listen to the offending opera at an uncomfortably loud volume; 
b) take up tennis, golf or squash, or other sporting activity, and play regularly;
c) make a list of the 50 funniest novels of the last 100 years, and start reading;
d) listen to a great deal of Bach, Purcell, Pergolesi and Mozart; 
e) watch more films;
f) try to fall in love with, or spend time with, someone you admire who doesn't like Wagner.

That should do it, honestly


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

TryWagner's early Rienzi - of course ,it doesn't come anywhere near the greatness of the mature Wagner,
but it's not a bad opera at all, and not nearly as bad as many critics would have us believe.
It's also extremely valuable ,in that it shows Wagner's early stages of development into a towering genius .
The only studio recording so far is on EMI, with the late Heinrich Hollreiser conducting the Staatskapelle,Dresden, the same orchestra that played the premiere under Wagner , with Rene Kollo as Rienzi, the doomed papal legate who tries in vain to stem the power of the corrupt Roman nobility .
There are several other live recordings, but all are heavily cut . I haven't seen the recent DVD from Berlin, but I hear that it reduces a more than four-hour long opera to only two .


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## Roberto (Jul 17, 2010)

superhorn said:


> I haven't seen the recent DVD from Berlin, but I hear that it reduces a more than four-hour long opera to only two .


I think I'd go for that one if I had to choose


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## Yashin (Jul 22, 2011)

Don't worry about your addiction. It took 25 madame butterfly's for me to stop!!


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Yashin said:


> Don't worry about your addiction. It took 25 madame butterfly's for me to stop!!


Whoa . . . that's a lot of Butterflys!


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

Itullian,

Do you have Kubelik's version yet? If not, you still have a long way to go before conquering the addiction.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

jflatter said:


> Itullian,
> 
> Do you have Kubelik's version yet? If not, you still have a long way to go before conquering the addiction.


Kubelik and Haitink still to go.


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## Allanmcf (May 29, 2014)

Itullian said:


> Kubelik and Haitink still to go.


Try the Knappertsbusch from Munich in 1955 if you haven't already. Also on YouTube there is a very interesting recording from Bayreuth 1943 conducted by Abendroth with Schoffler as Sachs and Suthaus as Walther.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Itullian said:


> just ordered my 8th recording.
> listening constantly.
> recs?
> 
> anyone else have an opera addiction?


I have one Meistersinger and liked it a lot, but it was rather long (to watch on DVD, not so much the CD). I think if they could condense the DVD performance to about half the length it would be better for me at least.

I have opera addiction and multiples of the following on CD:
Fidelio/Leonora: 8
Sonnambula: 7
Daughter of the Regiment: 2
Cenerentola: 2
Anna Bolena: 2


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Florestan said:


> I have one Meistersinger and liked it a lot, but it was rather long (to watch on DVD, not so much the CD). I think if they could condense the DVD performance to about half the length it would be better for me at least.
> 
> I have opera addiction and multiples of the following on CD:
> Fidelio/Leonora: 8
> ...


I listen or watch one act at a time usually.


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

I have a _Tristan und Isolde_ addiction. But you probably knew that already.

Currently, I only have 2 recordings and the full orchestral score. I think I'm handling my addiction fairly well. I take regular breaks from the opera - sometimes going one full day without it. I plan to take a 2-day _Tristan_ fast next week. 

When I start listening to the Prelude, I must hear the rest of the opera. It just sucks me right in...


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Right now i'm into various Bayreuth historical Rings.
Great fun comparing them.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

jflatter said:


> Itullian,
> 
> Do you have Kubelik's version yet? If not, you still have a long way to go before conquering the addiction.


Yup, I do. :tiphat:


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## Loge (Oct 30, 2014)

LOL, when I saw Mastersingers at the ENO earlier this year, I sat next to a lady who was a Mahler fan, who hated Wagner, but wanted to see what the fuss was about . She kept questioning me if I had multiple recordings of Wagner's operas (well only a few). Anyway, I explained to her the context that this opera was written, before German unification and she calmed down. Secretly, I think she enjoyed the music and spectacle.


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

Itullian said:


> Yup, I do. :tiphat:


What do you think of the Kubelik? Fans of this recording seem to swear by it, so it must be really good. I haven't had the chance to hear it yet, unfortunately.

The selling price at Amazon is rather astronomical at the moment. That's a pity.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Just picked up Meistersinger Karajan today myself. I haven't heard this opera before


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Celloman said:


> What do you think of the Kubelik? Fans of this recording seem to swear by it, so it must be really good. I haven't had the chance to hear it yet, unfortunately.
> 
> The selling price at Amazon is rather astronomical at the moment. That's a pity.












It's one of the very best. No weak link in the cast, excellent remastered stereo sound, excellent conducting.
Sometimes it drops under 40d, but that's as low as I've seen it.
Is it worth it? How much do you like Meister?


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

Itullian said:


> Is it worth it? How much do you like Meister?


I love it. Definitely one of his indisputable masterpieces. Only, I don't know if I'd be willing to shell out 40+ bucks on a recording. I'll keep checking Amazon and Ebay and see if I get lucky one of these days. It doesn't hurt to hope!

I've heard the Karajan and watched a couple of video recordings. The Kubelik is the other one I really want to hear, besides maybe the Sawallisch.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Itullian said:


>


Wow! Janowitz! I have to listen to the clips now. Can't afford it, but at least I am inspired to get out my Solti Meistersinger and give it another listen.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

I have been slow getting into this opera. It has been my least favorite of the Bayreuth operas (I don't have much of a feel for _Tannhäuser_ but every approach has been positive).

But I have been working at it and the piece has been growing on me. I have been listening to Edo de Waart's orchestral transcription and that is giving me more of an appetite for the whole thing. Which has led me to watching the Glyndebourne DVD. This production is coming to SFO in November and I am quite excited to see it live!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

W've just had the grandchildren to stay. A sure opera addiction cure when they are around! Frozen and Tinkerbell rules!


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Itullian said:


> It's one of the very best. No weak link in the cast, excellent remastered stereo sound, excellent conducting.
> Sometimes it drops under 40d, but that's as low as I've seen it.
> Is it worth it? How much do you like Meister?


Itullian knows I refuse to pay those insane prices even if this is a great performance, unfortunately Kubelik's Meister and Parsifal also not currently on spotify or tidal streaming....... 

My rationale is that I can buy 2-3 great Bayreuth Meisters on Myto label for that price, so I continue the holdout. Someday Kubelik will be released on a budget label series with remaster and I will be vindicated!


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

DarkAngel said:


> Itullian knows I refuse to pay those insane prices even if this is a great performance, unfortunately Kubelik's Meister and Parsifal also not currently on spotify or tidal streaming.......
> 
> My rationale is that I can buy 2-3 great Bayreuth Meisters on Myto label for that price, so I continue the holdout. Someday Kubelik will be released on a budget label series with remaster and I will be vindicated!


Konya and Janowitz, Konya and Janowitz


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Florestan said:


> Wow! Janowitz! I have to listen to the clips now. Can't afford it, but at least I am inspired to get out my Solti Meistersinger and give it another listen.


The Solti is great too.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

DarkAngel said:


> Itullian knows I refuse to pay those insane prices even if this is a great performance, unfortunately Kubelik's Meister and Parsifal also not currently on spotify or tidal streaming.......
> 
> My rationale is that I can buy 2-3 great Bayreuth Meisters on Myto label for that price, so I continue the holdout. Someday Kubelik will be released on a budget label series with remaster and I will be vindicated!


Like this (sorry horrible image quality) from the used listings of this Amazon listing (as low as $28.49 though one commenter says sound quality is not as good):








Clips are on Allmusic (click here for clips).


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

I was unaware that the Kubelik was even available on an old Myto release, good find......but you are right that amazon postings say it is inferior in sound to current one.....

No I meant I can buy 2-3 *different cast and conductor Bayreuth Meisters on Myto *which maybe even better than Kubelik, just less well known to general public










Itullian will have to admit there has never been a better Eva than Grummer........


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## Pimlicopiano (Oct 23, 2014)

To cure oneself of the addiction once and for all, go and see it at Bayreuth. The house acoustics are notoriously ill-suited to the Meistersinger score. And its bloody hot, stuffy and uncomfortable inside for such a lengthy piece. I sat through the Ring there last year, so I know what a five hour opera feels like in there. Once you've got back home put on a recording of, say, Handel's Rodelinda or Mozart's Nozze di Figaro, and let your ears hear some divine music. That should sort you out.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

DarkAngel said:


> I was unaware that the Kubelik was even available on an old Myto release, good find......but you are right that amazon postings say it is inferior in sound to current one.....
> 
> No I meant I can buy 2-3 *different cast and conductor Bayreuth Meisters on Myto *which maybe even better than Kubelik, just less well known to general public
> 
> ...





















I'll admit that there's never been a better one than 'Schwarzkopf.'_ ;D _

(Grummer's undeniably great though.)


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

DarkAngel said:


> I was unaware that the Kubelik was even available on an old Myto release, good find......but you are right that amazon postings say it is inferior in sound to current one.....
> 
> No I meant I can buy 2-3 *different cast and conductor Bayreuth Meisters on Myto *which maybe even better than Kubelik, just less well known to general public
> 
> ...


Definitely admit that DA.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Pimlicopiano said:


> To cure oneself of the addiction once and for all, go and see it at Bayreuth. The house acoustics are notoriously ill-suited to the Meistersinger score. And its bloody hot, stuffy and uncomfortable inside for such a lengthy piece. I sat through the Ring there last year, so I know what a five hour opera feels like in there. Once you've got back home put on a recording of, say, Handel's Rodelinda or Mozart's Nozze di Figaro, and let your ears hear some divine music. That should sort you out.


Very nice you took the time to go there. 
The way you describe it, it does sound awful and I'd much rather see it in a comfortable seat with AC.
But I still do love the music.
And I have seen horrible productions of Figaro as well that have ruined it for me, but I still love the music
:tiphat:


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I am really loving this Solti Meistersinger. I may have to get my DVD (Levine) out for a second watch. It certainly is exposing me to different kind of music than I get in the Rossini, Donizetti, and Bellini operas I so much love.


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## Allanmcf (May 29, 2014)

Hi Florestan

To which Solti Meistersinger are you referring. The one with Bailey as Sachs or the later one with Van Dam?


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Allanmcf said:


> Hi Florestan
> 
> To which Solti Meistersinger are you referring. The one with Bailey as Sachs or the later one with Van Dam?


I have the one with Van Dam.


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## Allanmcf (May 29, 2014)

Florestan said:


> I have the one with Van Dam.


That's definitely the better of the two. Solti seems more at one with the CSO and Heppner is a pretty good Walther although I still have a soft spot for Kollo.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Allanmcf said:


> That's definitely the better of the two. Solti seems more at one with the CSO and Heppner is a pretty good Walther although I still have a soft spot for Kollo.


Kollo is pretty good in the Bernstein Fidelio.

Oddly the reviews on Amazon were making me think the other Solti was better. I think the bottom like is they are both good. Thanks.


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## Lycia (May 4, 2015)

I've got a lot of affection for the Meistersinger on DVD from Bayreuth with Weikl as Sachs conducted by Stein in a really pretty production from Wolfgang Wagner. I know Wolfgang productions get a lot of stick for being pretty and there's often a preference for Wieland's more stark stagings, but I like having something nice to look at and the final scene with the big tree makes me smile because it matches the pageant of the music so well. I just love that whole sequence from the guilds, to apprentices to Mastersingers and then Prize Song followed by Sachs and the cast praising German art. The final hand shake with Wolfgang also brings a big smile! Feels like a moment of Bayreuth history right there. Of the cast, Weikl and Jerusalem are easily my favourites, love seeing them inhabit their roles. I love Haggander as Eva too.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

It is a fun concept too, having an opera about singing, just like you have the opera Tosca about an opera singer, but with meistersinger they are actually singing about singing.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

The Eugen Jochum album (DG) is quite wonderful, very well recorded, and nicely casted (Domingo, Ludwig, Fischer-Dieskau, Catarina Ligendza). It appears to be underrated, perplexingly so.
-->http://www.amazon.com/Die-Meistersi...&qid=1431019263&sr=8-1&keywords=wagner+jochum


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

dholling said:


> The Eugen Jochum album (DG) is quite wonderful, very well recorded, and nicely casted (Domingo, Ludwig, Fischer-Dieskau, Catarina Ligendza). It appears to be underrated, perplexingly so.
> -->http://www.amazon.com/Die-Meistersi...&qid=1431019263&sr=8-1&keywords=wagner+jochum


Fischer-D. is always controversial in the Wagner bass-baritone roles. His voice is a heady lyric baritone, not a rich bass-baritone, and this, along with his self-conscious, over-intellectual approach to words, leaves some of us unmoved. Ligendza is not the sweetest or most lyrical of Evas, and her leading of the quintet leaves a lot to be desired (compare Grummer on the fine old EMI recording under Kempe, or, to go back farther, Elisabeth Schumann). I like the Jochum otherwise, but these two singers just don't fit my idea of the work. For that, the old Friedrich Schorr excerpts still show how its done, by a singer with a magnificent voice, a superb technique, and the right blend of intellect and feeling. This quintet from 1931 (including Schorr, Schumann, and Melchior) is a lesson in Wagner sung _bel__ canto_:


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Florestan said:


> It is a fun concept too, having an opera about singing, just like you have the opera Tosca about an opera singer, but with meistersinger they are actually singing about singing.


It is certainly well made. The singing supposed to be songs are clearly distinguished from the singing supposed to be speak.


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## Eramirez156 (Mar 25, 2015)

Well my current fav. For Meistersinger has to be the 1943 Bayreuth , with Herman abendroth, conducting with Hilde scheppan, Paul Schoffler, Eric Kunz, and Ludwig Suthaus. Wonderfully sung and great mono sound. And you won't believe the price at Amazon for the mp3s. Enjoy.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I have lived with LPs of the first Solti version for many, many years. Recently I decided to look into other versions and the easiest to get from our library was the newer Solti, so far I am rather underwhelmed by Van Dam's Sachs, maybe it's a case of familiarity with Bailey but he sounds so much more 'right' for the part. I will have to see what other versions I can find.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Becca said:


> I have lived with LPs of the first Solti version for many, many years. Recently I decided to look into other versions and the easiest to get from our library was the newer Solti, so far I am rather underwhelmed by Van Dam's Sachs, maybe it's a case of familiarity with Bailey but he sounds so much more 'right' for the part. I will have to see what other versions I can find.


The first Solti is still available on cd.
The Sachs' on modern recordings aren't that great. 
Van Dam gets better after a few listens, but I think the recording works as a whole.
And the recording is magnificent.
Nothing like the old guys though.
Maybe Stewart?


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Fischer-D. is always controversial in the Wagner bass-baritone roles. His voice is a heady lyric baritone, not a rich bass-baritone, and this, along with his self-conscious, over-intellectual approach to words, leaves some of us unmoved. Ligendza is not the sweetest or most lyrical of Evas, and her leading of the quintet leaves a lot to be desired (compare Grummer on the fine old EMI recording under Kempe, or, to go back farther, Elisabeth Schumann). I like the Jochum otherwise, but these two singers just don't fit my idea of the work. For that, the old Friedrich Schorr excerpts still show how its done, by a singer with a magnificent voice, a superb technique, and the right blend of intellect and feeling. This quintet from 1931 (including Schorr, Schumann, and Melchior) is a lesson in Wagner sung _bel__ canto_:


Thank you kindly Woodduck.
DH


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> Fischer-D. is always controversial in the Wagner bass-baritone roles. His voice is a heady lyric baritone, not a rich bass-baritone, and this, along with his self-conscious, over-intellectual approach to words, leaves some of us unmoved. Ligendza is not the sweetest or most lyrical of Evas, and her leading of the quintet leaves a lot to be desired (compare Grummer on the fine old EMI recording under Kempe, or, to go back farther, Elisabeth Schumann). I like the Jochum otherwise, but these two singers just don't fit my idea of the work. For that, the old Friedrich Schorr excerpts still show how its done, by a singer with a magnificent voice, a superb technique, and the right blend of intellect and feeling. This quintet from 1931 (including Schorr, Schumann, and Melchior) is a lesson in Wagner sung _bel__ canto_:


All true. But I still love that recording. I think DFD and Domingo are just beautiful.
Just mho and taste.


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## Allanmcf (May 29, 2014)

I like the '55 Munich with Knappertsbusch, the '56 Bayreuth with Cluytens and the Kempe studio. Close behind are the '59 Munich with Sawallisch and the Dresden Karajan which I'm still very fond of because it was the first one I heard.


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## Allanmcf (May 29, 2014)

I didn't mention Kubelik because I haven't got round to listening to it yet.


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

Allanmcf said:


> I didn't mention Kubelik because I haven't got round to listening to it yet.


I think you need to as it's brilliant.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I can't get addicted to this opera as it is overlong and does get tedious in places. I know it will be taken as heresy by certain people but imo Wagner could have lopped an hour off it. What comes of being your own editor! The best all round performance / recording for my money is Karajan 2. Not perfect but it does give the impression of being a happy time for all, which apparently it was with HvK conducting an Orchestra (Dresden) he didn't know but who knew the score intimately themselves. 
Andrew Clements' review here:

http://www.theguardian.com/culture/1999/aug/27/buildingaclassicallibraryseries.culture7


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

^^^^^
You're right, I don't agree.
I love every minute.
:tiphat:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Itullian said:


> ^^^^^
> You're right, I don't agree.
> I love every minute.
> :tiphat:


It's our privilege to disagree! I must confess I have only watched it in the Met's conventional version both times with overweight Walthers! 
The one from the ENO looks interesting. Wonder whether they will broadcast it sometime? Anyone seen it?


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

DavidA said:


> It's our privilege to disagree! I must confess I have only watched it in the Met's conventional version both times with overweight Walthers!
> *The one from the ENO looks interesting*. Wonder whether they will broadcast it sometime? Anyone seen it?


Is it on DVD? Whos in it?

Maybe you'd like the Glyndebourne with Gerald Finley.
He's very good.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Itullian said:


> Is it on DVD? Whos in it?
> 
> Maybe you'd like the Glyndebourne with Gerald Finley.
> He's very good.


http://www.eno.org/whats-on/the-mastersingers-of-nuremberg


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

DavidA said:


> http://www.eno.org/whats-on/the-mastersingers-of-nuremberg


Looks nice. And in English.
Have you seen the Glyndebourne with Finley? I think you'd like it.

Its on youtube.


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## Allanmcf (May 29, 2014)

I love that Meistersinger is Wagner's idea of a comedy. It's about as funny as a stroke when you consider the content. There are a few lighthearted moments but it is every bit as serious as anything he ever wrote. Casual racism aside it is by far his sunniest score but still has that penetrating gaze into the human psyche that few composers ever achieve. Pax Mozart. 

Peace to all


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

DavidA said:


> It's our privilege to disagree! I must confess I have only watched it in the Met's conventional version both times with overweight Walthers!
> The one from the ENO looks interesting. Wonder whether they will broadcast it sometime? Anyone seen it?


I saw it and thought it was brilliant. Richard Jones's best production in my view. It works well in English and I am not usually a fan of opera in translation. Rather stupidly it was not filmed or even audio recorded.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

jflatter said:


> I saw it and thought it was brilliant. Richard Jones's best production in my view. It works well in English and I am not usually a fan of opera in translation. Rather stupidly it was not filmed or even audio recorded.


Oh man ..........


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I just came across this item. Although I can't speak to the truth of it, I have no reason to think otherwise.



> It is forgotten today that Karajan's classic EMI recording of Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg, made in East Germany with the Staatskapelle Dresden, was originally planned for Barbirolli. But in 1968 Rafael Kubelik asked fellow musicians not to conduct in countries which supported the Russian invasion of Czechoslovakia. Barbirolli withdrew from the proposed recording, leaving the door open to the opportunist Karajan.


Definitely an interesting 'what might have been'!


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

Itullian said:


> anyone else have an opera addiction?


i do and have got every video of _Die Meistersinger_ ever released.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

I do not have a single opera addiction, I get addicted to each Wagner opera in turn. It is Die Meistersinger for a month or two, and then Tristan, and then Parsifal, and Die Walküre after that... and then all over again.

As for the comic value of Die Meistersinger, I think it has more of a _heartwarming_ value. There are a couple moments in it that get me to laugh, and over four hours of being happy and content, awash in beautiful music. The prelude begins, and for a short while all is well with the world. I am even thinking of using this prelude as my wedding music some day.

I only have three versions of it so far:





















but I find them all to be equally great.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

SiegendesLicht said:


> I do not have a single opera addiction, I get addicted to each Wagner opera in turn. It is Die Meistersinger for a month or two, and then Tristan, and then Parsifal, and Die Walküre after that... and then all over again.
> 
> As for the comic value of Die Meistersinger, I think it has more of a _heartwarming_ value. There are a couple moments in it that get me to laugh, and over four hours of being happy and content, awash in beautiful music. The prelude begins, and for a short while all is well with the world. I am even thinking of using this prelude as my wedding music some day.
> 
> ...


They are all great for different reasons.
And like you I find it heartwarming.
I always feel good listening.
And I'm always amazed how Wagner winds the music all around the singing, beautiful melodies appearing everywhere.
In a beautiful production it can bring tears to my eyes.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Itullian said:


> In a beautiful production it can bring tears to my eyes.


The prelude to Act 3 can do that to me.

As a matter of fact, I was going to listen to some Bruckner tonight, but now I think it will be Die Meistersinger instead.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

SiegendesLicht said:


> The prelude to Act 3 can do that to me.
> 
> As a matter of fact, I was going to listen to some Bruckner tonight, but now I think it will be Die Meistersinger instead.


I love Bruckner too. 

Except his symphonies are too short.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Itullian said:


> I love Bruckner too.
> 
> Except his symphonies are too short.


Yes! The very best music is always too short.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Love it 
Chills all through this


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

^ Ah, yes, the finale. Love it. I heard it in a concert of Wagner excerpts once. The final chords almost brought the roof down as did the applause. I still have four hours before I get to it though.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

SiegendesLicht said:


> ^ Ah, yes, the finale. Love it. I heard it in a concert of Wagner excerpts once. The final chords almost brought the roof down as did the applause. I still have four hours before I get to it though.


And many wonders to hear.........

And what a finale it is!!!


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Wagner finales tend to be very good. Tannhäuser, Das Rheingold, Die Walküre, Siegfried, Götterdämmerung, Parsifal - all are magnificent!


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Wagner finales tend to be very good. Tannhäuser, Das Rheingold, Die Walküre, Siegfried, Götterdämmerung, Parsifal - all are magnificent!


Yes, He really knew how to open and close Acts and Operas, didn't he.

Think about all the great openings too


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Great openings, great finales - and everything in the middle


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

The you tube you posted is from the DVD I have. It is a very good one.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Great openings, great finales - and everything in the middle


So much glorious music.
Thank you RW


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Florestan said:


> The you tube you posted is from the DVD I have. It is a very good one.


I have it too, and I very much agree.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)




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## Allanmcf (May 29, 2014)

Great performance provided you can get past the fact that a few of the nazi hierarchy were probably in the audience!


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Allanmcf said:


> Great performance provided you can get past the fact that a few of the nazi hierarchy were probably in the audience!


Were any in the orchestra?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Allanmcf said:


> Great performance provided you can get past the fact that a few of the nazi hierarchy were probably in the audience!


Attendance was compulsory for Hitler's cronies at the time as Bayreuth was not just the shrine to Wagner but also a rallying point to Nazism at the time, courtesy of Wagner's daughter-in-law. There are pictures of Nazi officials going into the theatre, some looking like they were going to the dentist to have their teeth pulled. I mean if you don't like opera five hours of compulsory Wagner is not going to be eagerly anticipated!


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

DavidA said:


> I mean if you don't like opera five hours of compulsory Wagner is not going to be eagerly anticipated!


At least they didn´t have to see Regietheater.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Hey, DavidA, do you like Die Meistersinger finale?


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## Faustian (Feb 8, 2015)

Allanmcf said:


> Great performance provided you can get past the fact that a few of the nazi hierarchy were probably in the audience!


Yes, yes I can.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Allanmcf said:


> Great performance provided you can get past the fact that a few of the nazi hierarchy were probably in the audience!


Who cares. They're all dead now.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Hey, DavidA, do you like Die Meistersinger finale?


Sort of a German 'Rule Britannia' !


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

I thought I would make this thread a little more interesting...






Nothing like the rousing music of _Die Meistersinger_ and a couple of Swastikas to start your day!


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## PKW (Apr 7, 2015)

Celloman said:


> I thought I would make this thread a little more interesting...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for making it interesting + making me think and read up on Furtwängler.


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## Allanmcf (May 29, 2014)

Faustian said:


> Yes, yes I can.


As can I Faustian. Music is music and politics is politics and in my head neither the twain shall meet!!


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Allanmcf said:


> As can I Faustian. Music is music and politics is politics and in my head neither the twain shall meet!!


Except that music can be used for political reasons and Hitler is not the only one that have done that.


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## Allanmcf (May 29, 2014)

Florestan said:


> Were any in the orchestra?


Doubtful. Probably a few members but nobody in the upper echelons. I'm not sure that any of the senior nazis had a musical bone in their bodies and that definitely includes The big kahuna himself.


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## Allanmcf (May 29, 2014)

Just finished the Kubelik Meistersinger. Very, very good. Nice to hear a performance where the cast don't all sound as if they are collecting their pensions. Sachs and Beckmesser sound early middle aged and not geriatric and Walther, Eva, David and Lena sound youthful. Hurrah!! Kubelik takes it all at a nice pace. The orchestra is very good with a couple of places where they sound a little ragged. My own preference orchestrally is the Dresden Staatskappele under Karajan. All in all this is up there with the best.


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## Allanmcf (May 29, 2014)

Itullian said:


> Who cares. They're all dead now.


As are the people they murdered! We really shouldn't forget that.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Allanmcf said:


> As are the people they murdered! We really shouldn't forget that.


Who's forgotten? I had family in WW ll sir.
Please don't self righteously preach at me, ok?


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## Allanmcf (May 29, 2014)

Itullian said:


> Who's forgotten? I had family in WW ll sir.
> Please don't self righteously preach at me, ok?


As had I, one of whom, my father actually, spent three years as a "guest" of the Japanese, and I wasn't preaching, self-righteously or otherwise, o.k? I was merely reminding all who care to read these posts that when listening to this particular performance have a thought as to what was taking place at the same time. There was no offence meant. I thought your first remark was a trifle offhand, hence my subsequent response. Happy to bring this conversation to a close now. Sir. Probably best we just stick to music in future. O.k? Sir.


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## Lycia (May 4, 2015)

Celloman said:


> I thought I would make this thread a little more interesting...
> 
> Nothing like the rousing music of _Die Meistersinger_ and a couple of Swastikas to start your day!


Hmm that is very interesting indeed. Where was this performance taking place? There were some pieces of machinery visible, was it a concert for workers' taking place within a factory? I noticed some soldiers too, including one with a sling, so evidently not on active service.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Lycia said:


> Hmm that is very interesting indeed. Where was this performance taking place? There were some pieces of machinery visible, was it a concert for workers' taking place within a factory? I noticed some soldiers too, including one with a sling, so evidently not on active service.


Remember the Mastersingers, with its emphasis on German nationalism, was adopted as a propaganda piece by the Nazis.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Lycia said:


> Hmm that is very interesting indeed. Where was this performance taking place? There were some pieces of machinery visible, was it a concert for workers' taking place within a factory? I noticed some soldiers too, including one with a sling, so evidently not on active service.


It was an AEG factory, a German producer of electrical appliances. One thing I find to be very interesting is all those very tense, concentrated, unmoving faces. Did the German blue collars of that time really have such an appreciation of classical music? Or were they ordered to stand still and feign interest for the film? Who knows...


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## Lycia (May 4, 2015)

I remember reading that there were free performances of Die Meistersinger for workers in wartime Germany. Well noted about the strange facial expressions, it's like some of them didn't know how they should be reacting, others looked more into it than others though.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Remember the Mastersingers, with its *emphasis on German nationalism*, was adopted as a propaganda piece by the Nazis.


Here is the "emphasis" on "German nationalism" found in _Die Meistersinger:_

_If the German people and kingdom should one day decay,
under a false, foreign rule
soon no prince would understand his people;
and foreign mists with foreign vanities
they would plant in our German land;
what is German and true none would know,
if it did not live in the honour of German Masters.
Therefore I say to you:
honour your German Masters,
then you will conjure up good spirits!
And if you favour their endeavours,
even if the Holy Roman Empire
should dissolve in mist,
for us there would yet remain
holy German Art!_

That's it. That's the "emphasis on nationalism." A little speech a few minutes long at the end of the song contest, given by Hans Sachs, praising the Mastersingers and their great tradition, concluding the festivities and the opera.

"Holy German Art" - our great tradition, good people of Nuremberg. A tradition worth preserving, no matter what happens in this crazy world, even if our country and Holy Rome itself should be destroyed.

Wouldnt you say that it takes a bit of rationalizing to find, in this five-hour opera, an opera about the spirit of music and the meaning of art, in which that little speech is the only mention of anything German, that Wagner has "emphasized" any sort of "nationalism"?

Certainly Hitler was capable of such rationalizations, and worse ones than that. But do we have to take his word for anything?


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

^How terrible  :lol:


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> Here is the "emphasis" on "German nationalism" found in _Die Meistersinger:_
> 
> _If the German people and kingdom should one day decay,
> under a false, foreign rule
> ...


Yes Sachsy got a bit giddy when his boy Walther walked away with singing contest (got the girl Eva) and started on that long rant praising German art and the meistersingers, seemed a bit awkward and contrived to lecture the crowd

But remember earlier when Walther first appeared before the meistersingers to demonstrate his singing Sachs mocked the meistersingers for being closed minded and not open to new and different song styles, too set in their ways.........confusing, what changed Sachs mind?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DarkAngel said:


> Yes Sachsy got a bit giddy when his boy Walther walked away with singing contest (got the girl Eva) and started on that long rant praising German art and the meistersingers, seemed a bit awkward and contrived to lecture the crowd
> 
> But remember earlier when Walther first appeared before the meistersingers to demonstrate his singing Sachs mocked the meistersingers for being closed minded and not open to new and different song styles, too set in their ways.........confusing, what changed Sachs mind?


His mind didn't change. Sachs is an artist and philosopher, concerned with human illusion and folly, and with finding the golden mean between the two extremes of folly, repressive order and destructive chaos. He knows that tradition can become rigid and repressive, but also that impulse, however nobly born, can fly out of control and wreak havoc. He respects the traditional values of the Mastersingers, but recognizes their tendency to rigidity and closed-mindedness. On the other hand, he recognizes the raw genius of Walther, but sees that it will go nowhere without a grasp of eternal artistic principles and a respect for tradition. His mission is to reconcile the two, and so he guides Walther to discipline his creativity and show what is possible when inspiration and sound knowledge are allied. The speech about the greatness of tradition says that tradition has not been overthrown by Walther's triumph, but enriched.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> His mind didn't change. Sachs is an artist and philosopher, concerned with human illusion and folly, and with finding the golden mean between the two extremes of folly, repressive order and destructive chaos. He knows that tradition can become rigid and repressive, but also that impulse, however nobly born, can fly out of control and wreak havoc. He respects the traditional values of the Mastersingers, but recognizes their tendency to rigidity and closed-mindedness. On the other hand, he recognizes the raw genius of Walther, but sees that it will go nowhere without a grasp of eternal artistic principles and a respect for tradition. His mission is to reconcile the two, and so he guides Walther to discipline his creativity and show what is possible when inspiration and sound knowledge are allied. The speech about the greatness of tradition says that tradition has not been overthrown by Walther's triumph, but enriched.


Beautifully put.

Wagner's Anglophone ideological predecessors of Lord Coke, Bernard Mandeville, and Edmund Burke would be proud.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> His mind didn't change. Sachs is an artist and philosopher, concerned with human illusion and folly, and with finding the golden mean between the two extremes of folly, repressive order and destructive chaos. He knows that tradition can become rigid and repressive, but also that impulse, however nobly born, can fly out of control and wreak havoc. He respects the traditional values of the Mastersingers, but recognizes their tendency to rigidity and closed-mindedness. On the other hand, he recognizes the raw genius of Walther, but sees that it will go nowhere without a grasp of eternal artistic principles and a respect for tradition. His mission is to reconcile the two, and so he guides Walther to discipline his creativity and show what is possible when inspiration and sound knowledge are allied. The speech about the greatness of tradition says that tradition has not been overthrown by Walther's triumph, but enriched.


I was hoping duck had this aspect well thought out............:lol:

Let us hope the newly appointed meistersinger Walther has the wisdom to maintain the proper balance of tradition and open minded curiosity


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> His mind didn't change. Sachs is an artist and philosopher, concerned with human illusion and folly, and with finding the golden mean between the two extremes of folly, repressive order and destructive chaos. He knows that tradition can become rigid and repressive, but also that impulse, however nobly born, can fly out of control and wreak havoc. He respects the traditional values of the Mastersingers, but recognizes their tendency to rigidity and closed-mindedness. On the other hand, he recognizes the raw genius of Walther, but sees that it will go nowhere without a grasp of eternal artistic principles and a respect for tradition. His mission is to reconcile the two, and so he guides Walther to discipline his creativity and show what is possible when inspiration and sound knowledge are allied. The speech about the greatness of tradition says that tradition has not been overthrown by Walther's triumph, but enriched.


He's caught between Walther and Eva
And the old and the new.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Itullian said:


> He's caught between Walther and Eva
> And the old and the new.


An extraordinary operatic character, don't you think? He guides Walther to artistic triumph, guides Eva, whom he himself loves but knows he can't truly have, to Walther, and guides the Masters and the community to a realization that innovation and respect for traditional values and social order can be reconciled. I find this portrait of an aging man coming to terms with life's limitations but making the best of them, for himself and for others, beautiful.

Some people complain, or at least comment, that the opera is supposed to be a comedy but isn't "funny." But the meaning of comedy is broader than that. _Meistersinger_ is a meditation on human folly which recognizes that even happy endings are imperfect: where there's a winner, there's also a loser. But Beckmesser will get over his humiliation and perhaps learn a lesson. Sachs must live with his sadness, but so must we all. Walther and Eva will marry and produce little Mastersingers, and life will go on.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> An extraordinary operatic character, don't you think? He guides Walther to artistic triumph, guides Eva, whom he himself loves but knows he can't truly have, to Walther, and guides the Masters and the community to a realization that innovation and respect for traditional values and social order can be reconciled. I find this portrait of an aging man coming to terms with life's limitations but making the best of them, for himself and for others, beautiful.
> 
> Some people complain, or at least comment, that the opera is supposed to be a comedy but isn't "funny." But the meaning of comedy is broader than that. _Meistersinger_ is a meditation on human folly which recognizes that even happy endings are imperfect: where there's a winner, there's also a loser. But Beckmesser will get over his humiliation and perhaps learn a lesson. Sachs must live with his sadness, but so must we all. Walther and Eva will marry and produce little Mastersingers, and life will go on.


Yes, there is a sadness about him.
He lost his wife and now Eva.
I get a tear in my eye at the beginning of act 3.
Then he sucks it up and goes on.

I love the Tristan chords Wagner puts him and saying hes King Mark between Tristan and Isolde.
Very touching.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> "Holy German Art" - our great tradition, good people of Nuremberg. A tradition worth preserving, no matter what happens in this crazy world, even if our country and Holy Rome itself should be destroyed.


Exactly. And nowadays this sentiment is especially precious.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Exactly. And nowadays this sentiment is especially precious.


You mean now that regietheater is trying to destroy Wagner's own art right in his own home? If Sachs was appalled at human folly in 1550...!

Beckmesser was merely a petty pedant. These people are vandals.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> You mean now that regietheater is trying to destroy Wagner's own art right in his own home? If Sachs was appalled at human folly in 1550...!
> 
> Beckmesser was merely a petty pedant. These people are vandals.


Yes, that too, but more than that. I think our modern society is generally not conducive to creation or preservation of great art. As for these people, they have been taught to be ashamed of who they are, their identity and their heritage, hence the vandalism. I am quite sure Wagner would have nothing good to say about them, if he only knew.

On a happier note:









the old town and the Imperial castle of Nürnberg. The large building on the right, with two towers and a flag on top has been converted into a hotel where the author of this post has spent a few wonderful days of last winter, enjoying the great views of the city, exploring the architectural treasures and the excellent local history museum, and feeling quite transported into the Wagnerian world. I have some of my own happy memories connected to that place now


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Here is the "emphasis" on "German nationalism" found in _Die Meistersinger:_
> 
> _If the German people and kingdom should one day decay,
> under a false, foreign rule
> ...


I think you should realise that it's not the number of words that counts but the significance of them! 
Also the interpretation that is put on them. Are you telling me that German nationalism wasn't near to Wagner's heart?

And who is taking Hitler's word for anything? I was not saying I agreed with him as I don't agree with Hitler on almost anything. I merely repeated a fact of history. You could have seen the view expressed in the BBC documentary 'Karajan Man & Myth' which showed HvK conducting the overture.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Oh come on man.
He's praising and wants to preserve the art of his tradition, just like Italians, French, Mexicans, Chinese, etc.
Whats wrong with that?
And he lets the new guy in.

Sachs was no Nazi :lol:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Itullian said:


> Oh come on man.
> He's praising and wants to preserve the art of his tradition, just like Italians, French, Mexicans, Chinese, etc.
> Whats wrong with that?
> And he lets the new guy in.
> ...


Who said there was anything wrong with it? I merely stated that the speech was nationalistic - fact. So is Rule Brittania!
Secondly it was used as a propaganda tool by the Nazis - fact! In stating the fact I didn't say I agreed with it!
I have not stated rights or wrongs at all.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Nationalistic because it says , honor your German masters? 

And you did.
You said, *its the significance of them.*


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Wagner 'is' the Great German Master.

In this case, and in only this case, would I say: _Deutschland über alles_.

What other culture has produced a composer that rivals his genius?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Wagner 'is' the Great German Master.
> 
> In this case, and in only this case, would I say: _Deutschland über alles_.
> 
> What other culture has produced a composer that rivals his genius?


Austria. A certain WA Mozart whose genius blows Wagner (and every other opera composer) out of the window.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Austria. A certain WA Mozart whose genius blows Wagner (and every other opera composer) out of the window.


Well, I wouldn't want to compare Nozze with Gotterdammerung, they're so different. Wagner's scale and giant canvass and Mozart's beautiful arias.

But what happened to Sachs


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Austria. A certain WA Mozart whose genius blows Wagner (and every other opera composer) out of the window.


Fine porcelain is gorgeous, but platinum Valhallas are divine.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Itullian said:


> But what happened to Sachs


I wonder if *D*_uck_ has any thoughts about Tannhauser singing competition having some connection or trail run for the later Meistersinger opera, seems like wagner was very interested in singing competitions and perhaps represents a metaphor for something else on his mind..........


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

DarkAngel said:


> I wonder if* duck *has any thoughts about Tannhauser singing competition having some connection or trail run for the later Meistersinger opera, seems like wagner was very interested in singing competitions and perhaps represents a metaphor for something else on his mind..........


D.A.: that's a capital, boldfaced, italicized, '*D*' in "Duck"- writ large on the marquee for a candid world to behold. _;D_


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

DarkAngel said:


> I wonder if duck has any thoughts about *Tannhauser singing competition having some connection or trail run for the later Meistersinger opera, seems like wagner was very interested in singing competitions *and perhaps represents a metaphor for something else on his mind..........


mmmm, Could be


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Fine porcelain is gorgeous, but platinum Valhallas are divine.


Sorry! Nothing porcelain about Mozart. Platinum Valhallas??? Another fantasy??


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Itullian said:


> Well, I wouldn't want to compare Nozze with Gotterdammerung, they're so different. Wagner's scale and giant canvass and Mozart's beautiful arias.
> 
> But what happened to Sachs


You just can't compare Mozart to anyone in opera. Everyone else is an also-ran!


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

DavidA said:


> You just can't compare Mozart to anyone in opera. Everyone else is an also-ran!


_Mutatis mutandis_ for Wagner.

I'm not worried about hierarchializing though because both have a revered place on my shelves.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Sorry! Nothing porcelain about Mozart. Platinum Valhallas??? Another fantasy??


Did you think Valhalla was real?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Did you think Valhalla was real?


Not even Wagner thought it was platinum!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Marschallin Blair said:


> _Mutatis mutandis_ for Wagner.
> 
> I'm not worried about hierarchializing though because both have a revered place on my shelves.


They both have a place on my shelves. But only WAM is revered!


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

DavidA said:


> They both have a place on my shelves. But only WAM is revered!


Go ahead, David. You can kiss Wagner on the cheek. I won't tell._ ;D_


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Not even Wagner thought it was platinum!


His music suffices for it.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Go ahead, David. You can kiss Wagner on the cheek. I won't tell._ ;D_


What a horrible thought!


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

DavidA said:


> What a horrible thought!


_Amor vincit omnia._


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Marschallin Blair said:


> _Amor vincit omnia._


Mind you, I wouldn't go in for kissing Wolfie on the cheek either!


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Mind you, I wouldn't go in for kissing Wolfie on the cheek either!


. . . . . . . . . . . . . .


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I think if you listened to Wagner with your whole heart, like you do Mozart, you'd love him too.

You have something in common. He revered Mozart too.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Itullian said:


> I think if you listened to Wagner with your whole heart, like you do Mozart, you'd love him too.
> 
> You have something in common. He revered Mozart too.


Love Wagner? No. There is too much about it that disturbs me. Admire the music? Yes, some of it. Love the operas? Impossible!
But at least he got Mozart right - well, apart from his assessment of Cosi.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Love Wagner? No. There is too much about it that disturbs me. Admire the music? Yes, some of it. Love the operas? Impossible!
> But at least he got Mozart right - well, apart from his assessment of Cosi.


Why impossible? I do.


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## Bill H. (Dec 23, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> An extraordinary operatic character, don't you think? He guides Walther to artistic triumph, guides Eva, whom he himself loves but knows he can't truly have, to Walther, and guides the Masters and the community to a realization that innovation and respect for traditional values and social order can be reconciled. I find this portrait of an aging man coming to terms with life's limitations but making the best of them, for himself and for others, beautiful.
> 
> Some people complain, or at least comment, that the opera is supposed to be a comedy but isn't "funny." But the meaning of comedy is broader than that. _Meistersinger_ is a meditation on human folly which recognizes that even happy endings are imperfect: where there's a winner, there's also a loser. But Beckmesser will get over his humiliation and perhaps learn a lesson. Sachs must live with his sadness, but so must we all. Walther and Eva will marry and produce little Mastersingers, and life will go on.


This.

The description of Meistersinger that sums it all up for me is "life-affirming". Whatever its faults, or its long-windedness, listening to this work just makes me feel that all can be right in the world, despite our human foolishness. The time flies for me when I hear it.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> That's it. That's the "emphasis on nationalism." A little speech a few minutes long at the end of the song contest, given by Hans Sachs, praising the Mastersingers and their great tradition, concluding the festivities and the opera.
> 
> "Holy German Art" - our great tradition, good people of Nuremberg. A tradition worth preserving, no matter what happens in this crazy world, even if our country and Holy Rome itself should be destroyed.


Considering what happened with German art and art in general I would say Sachs speach gives an even greater impact.


----------



## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

This is not Wagner, but it makes a point:






I regret... *nothing* !!!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Bill H. said:


> This.
> 
> The description of Meistersinger that sums it all up for me is "life-affirming". Whatever its faults, or its long-windedness, listening to this work just makes me feel that all can be right in the world, despite our human foolishness. The time flies for me when I hear it.


Frankly I do not find the crowd's mocking of the unfortunate Beckmesser to be life affirming. In fact I find it pretty disturbing!


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Frankly I do not find the crowd's mocking of the unfortunate Beckmesser to be life affirming. In fact I find it pretty disturbing!


Unfortunate? He's a jerk
AND he stole the song!


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Most of the other popular operas contain a murder or two in their plot. I would imagine that to be more disturbing.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Frankly I do not find the crowd's mocking of the unfortunate Beckmesser to be life affirming. In fact I find it pretty disturbing!


Right. Mocking the jerk does nothing productive. We are supposed to love our enemies (including jerks).



Itullian said:


> Unfortunate? He's a jerk
> AND he stole the song!


That also is disturbing, but the real productive result is when he totally bungles the song and loses his desired outcome.



SiegendesLicht said:


> Most of the other popular operas contain a murder or two in their plot. I would imagine that to be more disturbing.


Right, which is why my opera collection is small (I like to avoid murder, gratuitous sex, goofy productions, etc.) My one exception is Tosca on CD and a video of Tosca Act II where the Act II murder is justified in self defense. I saw an ad for a Salome opera. Just the still picture of her kissing the severed head is more than I want to see.

But the Meistersinger opera is very uplifting in that the good guy gets the girl and the jerk is frustrated in his attempt. I really like this opera a lot, the main drawback is it's length which prevents me from enjoying it more often.

EDIT: Ideally the jerk should learn something from his experience and cease to be a jerk. I don't recall that being part of the opera, or was it (I have only watched it once so far)?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Most of the other popular operas contain a murder or two in their plot. I would imagine that to be more disturbing.


It's not though!


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Florestan said:


> Right, which is why my opera collection is small (I like to avoid murder, gratuitous sex, goofy productions, etc.) My one exception is Tosca on CD and a video of Tosca Act II where the Act II murder is justified in self defense. I saw an ad for a Salome opera. Just the still picture of her kissing the severed head is more than I want to see.


Just curious: what do you think about other Wagner operas? The Ring, for example, or Tannhäuser or Parsifal.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Just curious: what do you think about other Wagner operas? The Ring, for example, or Tannhäuser or Parsifal.


I would have to go back over the list of his other operas, but as I recall they are all based on mythological creatures, gods and such, which is a topic that I have no interest in. That is the general reason I don't go to Wagner, but there may be others specific to each opera if I look into it.

I do recall that the one about the ship's captain (who was condemned to wander the seas for eternity unless a certain condition was met) is of some interest, but there is so much more out there in opera land that captures my interest first. For example, I probably have to explore William Tell some day.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

There's no need to feel too sorry for Beckmesser. When pompous, narrow-minded and dishonest people overreach themselves and screw up, and people see that happening, they laugh. That's life. Beckmesser does just that, the audience laughs, and he rushes away embarrassed. It isn't as if they put him in the stocks or nail him to the cross. Wagner says he "loses himself in the crowd," so he hasn't fled the country either. Some fellow magistrate or other fine burger will probably pat him on the back, he'll feel justly humiliated and stay home for a few days licking his wounds, and then everything will be back to normal - except that, if he has half a wit, he will have some new ideas about art and life to chew on. Do you suppose anything less than a bit of humiliation would get through to a middle-aged man so set in his thinking and his ways? It's always a little painful when someone suffers the consequences of his own foolishness, but it's a necessary part of life, and Wagner doesn't shrink from the painful parts of life, even in comedy. Sachs did the marker a favor. Call it tough love.

Beckmesser has long been a point of contention in this opera: who he is, what he's supposed to represent, whether he's treated fairly. Productions of the opera have handled him in different ways, showing him as anything from silly buffoon to serious pillar of the community. Some have tried to make more of Beckmesser's humiliation than is actually justified by the stage directions or the tone of the music, and have implied that he is "driven from the podium" or "exiled from the community." This is tendentious nonsense, unfortunately too often based on an attempt to find racist or nationalist or other nefarious symbolism in the character, and to see his "downfall" as an enactment of the composer's presumed fantasies of pan-teutonicism or ethnic cleansing. One needs only to look at what Wagner has actually written to see the spurious and agenda-driven nature of such interpretations.

I don't think there is anything either obscure or troubling about Beckmesser's character, and I find the treatment of him in music and libretto to be quite consistent with the tone of the work as a whole, which is comic and serious at the same time. In all his works from _Der Flegende Hollander _on, Wagner proves himself a wizard at making his music tell us what his characters are thinking and feeling, as well as finding distinctive musical gestures for each personage on stage. _Meistersinger_, moreover, has a wonderfully literate, thoughtful, and witty libretto. If we just use our eyes and ears and believe what they tell us, we can't go far wrong.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

^^^^^^
It's wonderful how Wagner makes us think.
If you listen to what's going on in the music that's going on while a character
is singing, all kinds of thoughts and feelings are being communicated.
It's amazing!


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Most of the other popular operas contain a murder or two in their plot. I would imagine that to be more disturbing.


No kidding. _Dexter_ has been around for some time it appears. Makes me rethink just how many sociopath characters there are in opera.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

DavidA said:


> It's not though!


So, a murder composed by someone other than Wagner is less disturbing to you than a mild case of social humiliation composed by Wagner? Is it by any chance because you sort of... associate yourself with Beckmesser?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> So, a murder composed by someone other than Wagner is less disturbing to you than a mild case of social humiliation composed by Wagner? Is it by any chance because you sort of... associate yourself with Beckmesser?


I don't at all associate myself with poor old Beckmesser. Your little barb is wide of the mark, I'm afraid!  Just feel pretty disturbed by his treatment at the hands of the crowd. I also don't think "mild" is a word that comes to mind when discussing Wagner. Interesting that David McVicar, who produced Mastersingers for Glyndebourne, said in an interview in the Guardian that we should feel disturbed by it:
"You have to play Beckmesser's story through to its bitter end. But we don't have to make the audience approve of it. Wagner wants us to heartily approve of Beckmesser's humiliation. But we don't need the audience cheerleading him on as the Nurembergers laugh him off stage. The problem is that it's very, very funny when he mucks up that song. It's hilarious. But there's a price to be paid for the mockery. It has to be upsetting, horrifying, when everyone turns against him."
All this is part of McVicar's "looking Meistersinger squarely in the face and recognising the dark undercurrents which are barely beneath the surface". 
Of course another dark undercurrent McVicker points out is Pogner "putting his daughter up for raffle".


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> I don't at all associate myself with poor old Beckmesser. Your little barb is wide of the mark, I'm afraid!  Just feel pretty disturbed by *his treatment at the hands of the** crowd.* I also don't think "mild" is a word that comes to mind when discussing Wagner. Interesting that David McVicar, who produced Mastersingers for Glyndebourne, said in an interview in the Guardian that we should feel disturbed by it:
> "You have to play Beckmesser's story through to its bitter end. But we don't have to make the audience approve of it. Wagner wants us to heartily approve of Beckmesser's humiliation. But we don't need the audience cheerleading him on as *the Nurembergers laugh him off stage.* The problem is that it's very, very funny when he mucks up that song. It's hilarious. But there's a price to be paid for the mockery. It has to be upsetting, *horrifying, when everyone turns against him."*
> All this is part of McVicar's "looking Meistersinger squarely in the face and recognising the *dark** undercurrents* which are barely beneath the surface".
> Of course another dark undercurrent McVicker points out is Pogner "putting his daughter up for raffle".


Come, come. Beckmesser does a foolish and dishonest thing, and he outsmarts himself. His "treatment at the hands of the crowd" consists entirely of them laughing at him when he makes a fool of himself. Dramatic characters have been making fools of themselves, and suffering consequences far worse than hurt feelings, since storytelling began. Does "everyone turn against him"? The crowd laughs - they don't "laugh him off the stage," he leaves the stage because he doesn't know what the hell he's doing and realizes it - he stalks angrily over to Sachs, tells the crowd it's the cobbler's fault and that the horrible song is really by Sachs - still trying to evade responsibility - and he rushes away furious, losing himself among the people, who are quite confused and ask Sachs to explain. Sachs says the song is not by him, that Beckmesser will have to be the one to explain how he got hold of it, that the song is really something beautiful, and that they will now hear it sung properly.

No one can tell anyone else how they should feel about Beckmesser, his behavior, or the consequences of his behavior. I would only argue that those consequences are fair and not at all lethal. If Mr. McVicar wants to feel "horrified," that's his privilege (what word would he use if someone rushed up and stabbed Beckmesser in the chest?). But his use of such extreme language - his grave talk about "dark undercurrents" - is a pretty sure sign of yet another modern director out to make a "case" out of Wagner's work. We don't have to buy into such stuff.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Didn't he also undermine Walther's song in the first act,
just to get his own way?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Itullian said:


> Didn't he also undermine Walther's song in the first act,
> just to get his own way?


It's hard to say whether his vigorous and noisy marking of Walther's "faults" on the marker's slate was entirely legitimate or was more an attempt to get the young, handsome, talented fellow out of the picture so that he himself would have less competition for Eva. But he definitely wanted Walther out of the way, and wouldn't have been above putting down a few extra demerits.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> It's hard to say whether his vigorous and noisy marking of Walther's "faults" on the marker's slate was entirely legitimate or was more an attempt to get the young, handsome, talented fellow out of the picture so that he himself would have less competition for Eva. But he definitely wanted Walther out of the way, and wouldn't have been above putting down a few extra demerits.


I definitely think it was malicious on Beckmesser's part.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Come, come. Beckmesser does a foolish and dishonest thing, and he outsmarts himself. His "treatment at the hands of the crowd" consists entirely of them laughing at him when he makes a fool of himself. Dramatic characters have been making fools of themselves, and suffering consequences far worse than hurt feelings, since storytelling began. Does "everyone turn against him"? The crowd laughs - they don't "laugh him off the stage," he leaves the stage because he doesn't know what the hell he's doing and realizes it - he stalks angrily over to Sachs, tells the crowd it's the cobbler's fault and that the horrible song is really by Sachs - still trying to evade responsibility - and he rushes away furious, losing himself among the people, who are quite confused and ask Sachs to explain. Sachs says the song is not by him, that Beckmesser will have to be the one to explain how he got hold of it, that the song is really something beautiful, and that they will now hear it sung properly.
> 
> No one can tell anyone else how they should feel about Beckmesser, his behavior, or the consequences of his behavior. I would only argue that those consequences are fair and not at all lethal. If Mr. McVicar wants to feel "horrified," that's his privilege (what word would he use if someone rushed up and stabbed Beckmesser in the chest?). *But his use of such extreme language - his grave talk about "dark undercurrents" - is a pretty sure sign of yet another modern director out to make a "case" out of Wagner's work. We don't have to buy into such stuff*.


Interesting you should say that as McVicker was consciously trying to avoid making such a 'case' as you describe. His language is not extreme at all imo - just a .lover of the opera facing up to what is actually there and dealing with it honestly. Wagner wanted us to feel the maximum contempt for Beckmesser as he represented Hanslick and the critics he hated. I saw this dark side of the opera the first time I heard it years ago.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> It's hard to say whether his vigorous and noisy marking of Walther's "faults" on the marker's slate was entirely legitimate or was more an attempt to get the young, handsome, talented fellow out of the picture so that he himself would have less competition for Eva. But he definitely wanted Walther out of the way, and wouldn't have been above putting down a few extra demerits.


Is that in the libretto? Or your supposition?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Interesting you should say that as McVicker was consciously trying to avoid making such a 'case' as you describe. His language is not extreme at all imo - just a .lover of the opera facing up to what is actually there and dealing with it honestly. Wagner wanted us to feel the maximum contempt for Beckmesser as he represented Hanslick and the critics he hated. I saw this dark side of the opera the first time I heard it years ago.


No one denies that Beckmesser is a contemptible character. Evidently that's a problem for some people who want comedy, or life, to be all nice and tidy and have no "dark" side. But it is not, as McVicar would have it, a dark "undercurrent" of the work. That implies something deceptive or even conspiratorial. No, Wagner lays it all right out in the open. Beckmesser is not a good soul. He embodies the rigid, rule-bound, unimaginative, narrow, mean spirit that will not open itself to the flow of life and so fears and resents whatever overflows with vitality, freshness, and imagination. He insists on correctness by the book because he can't conceive of anything new and challenging being correct - and hopes desperately that he is right. He wants the youth and beauty of Eva, but knows he could never win her except as an award for being musically correct. He sees Walther as a threat, not only to his marital prospects but to his whole cramped and amputated view of life. Walther is his opposite in spirit, as Sachs is his opposite in mind.

_Meistersinger_ is often called Wagner's most realistic opera. It's true that it has a realistic, as opposed to mythical, setting. But it is as much a parable as any of his other works. It's characters are symbolic as well as human. If we understand what Beckmesser symbolizes - the devitalized, oppressive smallness of vision which Wagner believed held humanity and its artistic expression back (and doesn't it?) - we might even admire the composer for making him a figure of fun rather than a monster, and for engineering his defeat merely by allowing him to embarrass himself. It's a rather gentle fate, all things considered.

Wagner did see in Beckmesser the conservative critics - especially, it appears, Eduard Hanslick - who harshly condemned his innovative music. The ultimate joke on them, of course, was that the opera actually predicted Wagner's real-life triumph over his detractors. Of course he fully expected that outcome.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> No one denies that Beckmesser is a contemptible character. Evidently that's a problem for some people who want comedy, or life, to be all nice and tidy and have no "dark" side. But it is not, as McVicar would have it, a dark "undercurrent" of the work. That implies something deceptive or even conspiratorial. No, Wagner lays it all right out in the open. Beckmesser is not a good soul. He embodies the rigid, rule-bound, unimaginative, narrow, mean spirit that will not open itself to the flow of life and so fears and resents whatever overflows with vitality, freshness, and imagination. He insists on correctness by the book because he can't conceive of anything new and challenging being correct - and hopes desperately that he is right. He wants the youth and beauty of Eva, but knows he could never win her except as an award for being musically correct. He sees Walther as a threat, not only to his marital prospects but to his whole cramped and amputated view of life. Walther is his opposite in spirit, as Sachs is his opposite in mind.
> 
> _Meistersinger_ is often called Wagner's most realistic opera. It's true that it has a realistic, as opposed to mythical, setting. But it is as much a parable as any of his other works. It's characters are symbolic as well as human. If we understand what Beckmesser symbolizes - the devitalized, oppressive smallness of vision which Wagner believed held humanity and its artistic expression back (and doesn't it?) - we might even admire the composer for making him a figure of fun rather than a monster, and for engineering his defeat merely by allowing him to embarrass himself. *It's a rather gentle fate, all things considered. *
> 
> Wagner did see in Beckmesser the conservative critics - especially, it appears, Eduard Hanslick - who harshly condemned his innovative music. The ultimate joke on them, of course, was that the opera actually predicted Wagner's real-life triumph over his detractors. Of course he fully expected that outcome.


No it's not a gentle fate considering to Beckmesser as his standing in the community and his respectability as a mastersinger was the thing he valued most. Can you imagine that happening to you as a singer where you completely mess up and everyone is laughing and mocking? Many comedies have a dark side. We can see a parallel in the heartless mocking of Malvolio in Twelth Night. Wagner's intention was certainly not to let Bwckmesser down gently any more than Shakespeare's was with Malvolio!


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

DavidA said:


> Interesting that David McVicar, who produced Mastersingers for Glyndebourne, said in an interview in the Guardian that we should feel disturbed by it:
> "You have to play Beckmesser's story through to its bitter end. But we don't have to make the audience approve of it. Wagner wants us to heartily approve of Beckmesser's humiliation. But we don't need the audience cheerleading him on as the Nurembergers laugh him off stage. The problem is that it's very, very funny when he mucks up that song. It's hilarious. But there's a price to be paid for the mockery. It has to be upsetting, horrifying, when everyone turns against him."
> All this is part of McVicar's "looking Meistersinger squarely in the face and recognising the dark undercurrents which are barely beneath the surface".
> Of course another dark undercurrent McVicker points out is Pogner "putting his daughter up for raffle".


Ah, another one who does not understand Wagner. Such a novelty, really  I am beginning to think, maybe you have to be German at heart in order to understand him 

You are so sorry about poor old Beckmesser that you have apparently never thought what would happen if he did win: Eva would have to spend the rest of her life married to a grumpy unlovable old man instead of the young knight she had already fallen in love with. Her destiny apparently does not bother you.



DavidA said:


> No it's not a gentle fate considering to Beckmesser as his standing in the community and his respectability as a mastersinger was the thing he valued most. Can you imagine that happening to you as a singer where you completely mess up and everyone is laughing and mocking?


Beckmesser's standing in the community was absolutely not depending on his being a mastersinger. He was the _Stadtschreiber_, the town clerk, one of the most important positions of the city administration, that is where his standing came from. In fact I think that was the only reason the mastersingers endured him in their midst. He was apparently such a poor singer that he even managed to completely mess up the song he himself had written for Eva and sung under her window. He probably thought having an important job would somehow make him all-around talented, but that does not happen.

And by the way, he not only bungled Walther's song, he also first stole it.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

DavidA said:


> Is that in the libretto? Or your supposition?


At least Hans Sachs has the same suspicion. His words at the end of Act I, after Beckmesser declares Walther to have completely failed:

_Doch da nun steht geschrieben:
"Der Merker werde so bestellt,
dass weder Hass noch Lieben
das Urteil trübe, das er fällt."
Geht er nun gar auf Freiers Füssen,
wie sollt' er da die Lust nicht büssen,
den Nebenbuhler auf dem Stuhl'
zu schmähen vor der ganzen Schul'? _

But it is written:
"The Marker shall be so disposed
that neiter hatred nor love
obscure the judgement which he gives."
Since he is going a-wooing,
why should he not satisfy his desire
to disgrace a rival in the chair
before the whole School?


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

DavidA said:


> Can you imagine that happening to you as a singer where you completely mess up and everyone is laughing and mocking?


I absolutely can, that is why I limit my singing to the shower and rock concerts where my voice gets lost in the crowd, and I would never aspire to sing on stage. See, I understand my limitations, and Beckmesser did not. He failed twice in fact: once while serenading Eva under her window and once during the contest.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> No one denies that Beckmesser is a contemptible character. Evidently that's a problem for some people who want comedy, or life, to be all nice and tidy and have no "dark" side. But it is not, as McVicar would have it, a dark "undercurrent" of the work. That implies something deceptive or even conspiratorial. No, Wagner lays it all right out in the open. Beckmesser is not a good soul. He embodies the rigid, rule-bound, unimaginative, narrow, mean spirit that will not open itself to the flow of life and so fears and resents whatever overflows with vitality, freshness, and imagination. He insists on correctness by the book because he can't conceive of anything new and challenging being correct - and hopes desperately that he is right. *He wants the youth and beauty of Eva, but knows he could never win her except as an award for being musically correct.* He sees Walther as a threat, not only to his marital prospects but to his whole cramped and amputated view of life. Walther is his opposite in spirit, as Sachs is his opposite in mind.


He also does something else: in Act I while the mastersingers assemble, he goes to Eva's father and asks him to speak to Eva on his behalf, to tell her that Beckmesser is the right man for her. To which Eva's father answers:

_Könnt ihr der Tochter Wunsch nicht zwingen,
wie möchtet ihr wohl um sie frei'n? _

If you cannot sway the daughter's wishes,
How can you be courting her at all?

Beckmesser is very insecure.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Ah, another one who does not understand Wagner. Such a novelty, really  I am beginning to think, maybe you have to be German at heart in order to understand him
> 
> You are so sorry about poor old Beckmesser that you have apparently never thought what would happen if he did win: Eva would have to spend the rest of her life married to a grumpy unlovable old man instead of the young knight she had already fallen in love with. Her destiny apparently does not bother you.
> 
> ...


I think if you look at history that not all Germans have understood Mastersingers like you appear to! You also have this habit of making me say things I didn't. I was not commenting on the suitability of an Eva / Beckmesser match - although Pogner is very much the villain of the piece for putting his daughter up for raffle. 
You have also misunderstood the role of Beckmesser in Wagner's mind. His position in the city administration is merely incidental. What is central to our understanding is that he is a member of the Mastersingers who is a pendant and insists on the 'rules' (whatever they might be. In that he represented Wagner's critics. This is, of course, one of the weak points of the plot that it is inconceivable that someone who was a mastersinger could sing so badly! 
Again the fact he stole Walther's song is incidental to the point being made. It just adds a bit to Beckmesser's villainy. The point Wagner is making is that he didn't understand the new way espoused by Walther.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> No it's not a gentle fate considering to Beckmesser as his standing in the community and his respectability as a mastersinger was the thing he valued most. Can you imagine that happening to you as a singer where you completely mess up and everyone is laughing and mocking? Many comedies have a dark side. We can see a parallel in the heartless mocking of Malvolio in Twelth Night. Wagner's intention was certainly not to let Bwckmesser down gently any more than Shakespeare's was with Malvolio!


It seems to me that you're trying to justify your personal discomfort with _Meistersinger_ and Wagner by locating the problem in the opera itself. But is the opera really such a problem? You've said things like:

Frankly I do not find the crowd's mocking of the unfortunate Beckmesser to be life affirming.

But, as Itullian points out, "Unfortunate? He's a jerk AND he stole the song!" Beckmesser's "misfortune" is his own character.

Now, does the crowd really "mock" him?

...his treatment at the hands of the crowd.

I'd say the crowd doesn't "treat" him at all. He gets no "treatment" at their "hands." He's mucking up a song he didn't write and is trying to pass off as his own, he's doing something incomprehensible to his listeners, they don't know what to make of it, at first they're puzzled, then they find it comical and quite naturally laugh, and he realizes he can't go on with it and storms off the podium, blaming Sachs for what is his own fault. No one in the crowd shows him any animosity, makes any derogatory statements about him, or makes any gesture of scorn or derision. The crowd does nothing at all to him. They merely laugh at something incomprehensible and absurd - which is just what they'd be expected to do. It isn't a volitional act of "mockery."

"It has to be upsetting, horrifying, when everyone turns against him." (David McVicar, with whom you evidently agree)

Everyone does not "turn against him." No one turns against him. He gets laughed at because he's behaving absurdly. The laughter isn't malicious. At least Sachs didn't report him to the authorities for theft! Your threshold for being "horrified" seems extremely low.

All this is part of McVicar's "looking Meistersinger squarely in the face and recognising the dark undercurrents which are barely beneath the surface".

This is ridiculous. There are no "dark undercurrents." Everything we need to understand is right there on the surface. Wagner tells us exactly what he means. The opera is completely transparent. It's libretto sets forth its ideas clearly and wittily. It isn't written in code.

Two more points:

Of course another dark undercurrent McVicker points out is Pogner "putting his daughter up for raffle."

"Another dark undercurrent!" This is getting spooky! You do realize that arranged marriages were quite normal in times past? The idea was that parents would find a respectable man to take care of their daughter, so that she wouldn't give in to silly romantic fantasies and end up with a ne'er-do-well. We don't do this in our culture nowadays, but there's nothing "dark" about it. It's just Wagner's poetic/comedic take on an archaic custom - and, please note, Sachs, bless his progressive heart, makes sure that Eva ends up with the man she loves.

Dark undercurrent? Pfui!

This is, of course, one of the weak points of the plot that it is inconceivable that someone who was a mastersinger could sing so badly!

It's a comedy, David. All comedies are inconceivable. Comedies exaggerate. It's what makes them comical. Don't be so serious about poor unfortunate Beckmesser. He'll live to screw up another day.

The one we need to worry about is Alberich. Apparently he's still at large.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

I understand very well, what point Wagner was trying to make through this character and the whole opera. It's just that you keep defending poor old Beckmesser so much that I would like to bring it to your attention (and that of all members and guests who might come upon this thread) that Beckmesser was not some kind of almost innocent victim of the Nürnberg bullies, but a talentless hack, an impostor and on top of all that, a thief.

Also, I never said you had commented on the Eva/Beckmesser match anywhere. I said just the opposite, that you failed to take Eva's future into account.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> It seems to me that you're trying to justify your personal discomfort with _Meistersinger_ and Wagner by locating the problem in the opera itself. But is the opera really such a problem? You've said things like:
> 
> Frankly I do not find the crowd's mocking of the unfortunate Beckmesser to be life affirming.
> 
> ...


Why? Is a village missing him?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> It seems to me that you're trying to justify your personal discomfort with _Meistersinger_ and Wagner by locating the problem in the opera itself. But is the opera really such a problem? You've said things like:
> 
> Frankly I do not find the crowd's mocking of the unfortunate Beckmesser to be life affirming.
> 
> ...


I don't think we're watching the same opera. Of course the crowd mock him. At least they do in every version I've got! And the laughter is malicious too! Ok well you don't see the dark undercurrents in it but many others (who are also very well acquainted with the opera) do. 
Of course Wagner believed there was a dark undercurrent in the daughter being put up for auction - that's why he made sure she married for love! I tell you I have been to countries with 'arranged marriages' where daughters are sold off. And there is something disturbing about it. Maybe it's because I've seen it in real life I'm disturbed by it.
Yes I know it's a comedy but it's still a weakness in the plot. I thought that the first time I heard it. How could a mastersinger sing like this? 
Anyway, let's agree to differ.

Agreed about Alberich. Just hope he doesn't move in next door to me!

If anyone wants to see what McVicar made of Mastersingers the link is:





 and


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> I understand very well, what point Wagner was trying to make through this character and the whole opera. It's just that you keep defending poor old Beckmesser so much that I would like to bring it to your attention (and that of all members and guests who might come upon this thread) that Beckmesser was not some kind of almost innocent victim of the Nürnberg bullies, but a talentless hack, an impostor and on top of all that, a thief.
> 
> Also, I never said you had commented on the Eva/Beckmesser match anywhere. I said just the opposite, that you failed to take Eva's future into account.


Sorry but you've misunderstood the points I was trying to make. Agree to differ!


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Boooo Beckmesser

Yaaaaaaayyyyy Sachs :clap:


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)




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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Itullian said:


> just ordered my 8th recording.
> listening constantly.
> recs?
> 
> anyone else have an opera addiction?


Not sure if it qualifies as an addiction but I now have 26 Meistersingers!! Perhaps a therapist might help but I probably can't afford one having spent all my money now!


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Barbebleu said:


> Not sure if it qualifies as an addiction but I now have 26 Meistersingers!! Perhaps a therapist might help but I probably can't afford one having spent all my money now!


Are there any you don't have? What about DVDs?


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Barbebleu said:


> Not sure if it qualifies as an addiction but I now have 26 Meistersingers!! Perhaps a therapist might help but I probably can't afford one having spent all my money now!


I bow to the Meister of Meisters :tiphat:


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Barbebleu said:


> Not sure if it qualifies as an addiction but I now have 26 Meistersingers!! Perhaps a therapist might help but I probably can't afford one having spent all my money now!


How long have you been collecting?


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Florestan said:


> Are there any you don't have? What about DVDs?


Not much on DVD. Glyndebourne, Bayreuth, Met and th-th-that's all folks.

Not sure what I don't have. There's probably something out there I have missed and I'm pretty sure you good people out there are going to tell me what they are!

I do have Bayreuth '43, 51, '52, '56, '57, '59, '63, '68, '69, '74, 2008 and 2013. New York City Opera 1976, Munich '49, '55, '59, '63, New York Met 1953 and Salzburg 1974
Studios - Jochum, Karajan, Kempe, Kubelik, Sawallisch and both Soltis.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

SiegendesLicht said:


> How long have you been collecting?


I was going to tease you all and say since January but actually since the late sixties. I have replaced all my vinyl with digital, either cd or download.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Barbebleu said:


> Not sure if it qualifies as an addiction but I now have 26 Meistersingers!! Perhaps a therapist might help but I probably can't afford one having spent all my money now!


the problem with 'addictions' to me is they take the free will enjoyment out of it. You do not choose, you are driven!


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Barbebleu said:


> Not much on DVD. Glyndebourne, Bayreuth, Met and th-th-that's all folks.
> 
> Not sure what I don't have. There's probably something out there I have missed and I'm pretty sure you good people out there are going to tell me what they are!
> 
> ...


Now for the obvious money question......if you could only keep one which is your favorite?


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

^An amazing collection :tiphat:


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

DarkAngel said:


> Now for the obvious money question......if you could only keep one which is your favorite?


Ooooh, that is the $64 million dollar question. Live - Munich '55 with Knappertsbusch, Studio - Kempe.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Itullian said:


> ^An amazing collection :tiphat:


Thank you, but it is getting to be a problem, this burning desire to have everything. I have promised myself and my wife that I am taking a sabbatical from buying or downloading and I am going to attempt to spend more time actually listening! Fat chance I fear.

BTW it lags behind my 38 Ring cycles. Yes, I know. OCD springs to mind.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

DavidA said:


> the problem with 'addictions' to me is they take the free will enjoyment out of it. You do not choose, you are driven!


Absolutely DavidA. No argument there. But I like to think that I still have the ability to enjoy listening.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Barbebleu said:


> Thank you, but it is getting to be a problem, this burning desire to have everything. I have promised myself and my wife that I am taking a sabbatical from buying or downloading and I am going to attempt to spend more time actually listening! Fat chance I fear.
> 
> BTW it lags behind my 38 Ring cycles. Yes, I know. OCD springs to mind.


You are the Wagner King :tiphat:

Any other CD/DVD collections?


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Barbebleu said:


> Ooooh, that is the $64 million dollar question. Live - Munich '55 with Knappertsbusch, Studio - Kempe.


We want that studio Kempe Meister at the historical wagner thread, but the used cost is just brutal........Rudolph Schock is definitely legit wagner tenor!










I have never seen a 1955 Knappy Meister......what does it look like? Who is Hans Sachs.....


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

DarkAngel said:


> We want that studio Kempe Meister at the historical wagner thread, but the used cost is just brutal........Rudolph Schock is definitely legit wagner tenor!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Been wanting that Kempe forever!!


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Itullian said:


> You are the Wagner King :tiphat:
> 
> Any other CD/DVD collections?


A fair chunk of Richard Strauss. A couple of hundred Dylan bootlegs plus all his kosher stuff and pretty well everything recorded by Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Grateful Dead, John McLaughlin and now I'm just getting boring.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

DarkAngel said:


> We want that studio Kempe Meister at the historical wagner thread, but the used cost is just brutal........Rudolph Schock is definitely legit wagner tenor!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Frantz as Sachs, Della Casa as Eva, Hopf as Walther, Pflanzl as Beckmesser. There is a picture on Amazon.co.uk. It's on Orfeo at about $57 and the download price is about $7!! Sorry about that. 
Mine is a digital copy,


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

View attachment 70195
Here is a picture


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Itullian said:


> Been wanting that Kempe forever!!


My first version of the Kempe was on, believe it or believe it not, cassette! When I went digital I gave it to my local branch of Oxfam.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Barbebleu said:


> Absolutely DavidA. No argument there. But I like to think that I still have the ability to enjoy listening.


Yes I know the problem. I've just ordered another Mozart K466. I don't actually need it but it's there! 

I've been thinking I need to spend more time listening else it's like a giant stamp collection you never look at or an art collection that's locked away in the basement! Mind you, getting through 38 Mastersingers is a lifetime's work in itself!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Barbebleu said:


> My first version of the Kempe was on, believe it or believe it not, cassette! When I went digital I gave it to my local branch of Oxfam.


It's in mono I believe? I remember the Record Guide lamenting it was not made in stereo.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

DavidA said:


> It's in mono I believe? I remember the Record Guide lamenting it was not made in stereo.


Yes, mono but perfectly fine. Sometimes a good mono version is preferable to some of the early attempts at stereo with its ridiculously wide separation and artificial balancing.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

DavidA said:


> Yes I know the problem. I've just ordered another Mozart K466. I don't actually need it but it's there!
> 
> I've been thinking I need to spend more time listening else it's like a giant stamp collection you never look at or an art collection that's locked away in the basement! Mind you, getting through 38 Mastersingers is a lifetime's work in itself!


Only 26, DavidA. It's the insane 38 Rings that are more than a sensible lifetime's listening. I recently calculated that if I listened for four hours a day every day it will take me six years to listen to everything I have. That of course assumes I never acquire another thing. As if.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

My apologies folks. It's 28 Meistersingers. There were two over the page. Vienna 1944, Bohm and Vienna 1955, Reiner. Both with Paul Schoeffler as Sachs.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Barbebleu said:


> My apologies folks. It's 28 Meistersingers. There were two over the page. Vienna 1944, Bohm and Vienna 1955, Reiner. Both with Paul Schoeffler as Sachs.


I have been waiting for that 44 Vienna Bohm. Supposed to be a great one.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

You guys are real fanatics. And I mean that in a good sense.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Itullian said:


> I have been waiting for that 44 Vienna Bohm. Supposed to be a great one.


Amazon.co.uk. Download about $10! Can't understand why multinationals can't offer the same stuff to all their customers. Surely for something this old copyright isn't an issue.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Barbebleu said:


> Amazon.co.uk. Download about $10! Can't understand why multinationals can't offer the same stuff to all their customers. Surely for something this old copyright isn't an issue.


Are you set up to stream music from spotify or tidal services on your computer audio system?

I think many people are unaware what an essential source of opera/classical music is there, staggering amount of complete albums to stream commercial free for $10 month in USA.......for example spotify has the 1944 Bohm Meistersinger.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Itullian said:


> I have been waiting for that 44 Vienna Bohm. Supposed to be a great one.


The problem with elderly recordings is that the orchestra is often dim. As the orchestra is the chief interest for me in Wagner rather than the voices, I don't collect ancient Wagner recordings.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

DavidA said:


> The problem with elderly recordings is that the orchestra is often dim. As the orchestra is the chief interest for me in Wagner rather than the voices, I don't collect ancient Wagner recordings.


That's true. You have to know which ones to get or take a chance.
But the old voices are amazing.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

DarkAngel said:


> Are you set up to stream music from spotify or tidal services on your computer audio system?
> 
> I think many people are unaware what an essential source of opera/classical music is there, staggering amount of complete albums to stream commercial free for $10 month in USA.......for example spotify has the 1944 Bohm Meistersinger.


DA. I hardly have time to listen to the stuff I purchase or download let alone listen to Spotify!! I would like to, some of my friends do, but I'm afraid I don't. I'm not sure if Tidal is available in the U.K. I agree that there is a fantastic amount out there in the ether.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

I posted on the historical Wagner recordings thread something that properly belongs here, I think.


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## Bill H. (Dec 23, 2010)

There was some interest expressed here about the '56 Kempe Berlin Meistersinger, correct? 

A few years ago I purchased a "brown bag" version of the recording in 192 kbps mp3 format, in long file form only (1 file per Act). 

I spend some months editing the files, putting track splits that would work for burning to CDs, mildly re-equalizing the sound and also adding some ambience that helped give a little more space to the sound (though it's still mono). I also retained my remastered version in the long file format as well. Both are encoded to 256 kbps mp3, though I'm not sure that adds anything to the sound quality. 

I've shared this before with others, so I'm willing to do so here as well, since it's my reworking. It doesn't sound too bad to me, and I have always loved the performance. It's available in both long file and the CD-split versions, and I'll provide the downloadable link to anyone who messages me backchannel--I don't want to post it here. Thanks.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Ran across a Meistersinger tidbit in a book I am reading. In reference to the spread of Lutheranism during the Reformation in the 1520s the book says:



> At Nuremberg, the city secretary, Lazarus Spengler, published a tract favoring the reform, and *Hans Sachs*, a Meistersinger, celebrated Luther as "the nightingale of Wittenbert."


from _Christendom: A Short History of Christianity and Its Impact on Western Civilization_
by Roland H. Bainton


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

The other day I was listening to Meistersinger at my computer. My wife happened to come by right in the middle of the riot scene. She said "that music sounds very stressful." I said, "that's because it is depicting a riot! So I guess the music fits!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

SixFootScowl said:


> Ran across a Meistersinger tidbit in a book I am reading. In reference to the spread of Lutheranism during the Reformation in the 1520s the book says:
> 
> from _Christendom: A Short History of Christianity and Its Impact on Western Civilization_
> by Roland H. Bainton


Sachs of course was a follower of Luther ahead of the city council which later became Protestant. It is notable that Sachs became widowed in 1560 but remarried in 1561. Hence of course the story in the opera with Eva is entirely fictional


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Itullian said:


> just ordered my 8th recording.
> listening constantly.
> recs?
> 
> anyone else have an opera addiction?


I now have 8 recordings and one in the mail (Jochum).


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Does 49 count as an addiction? Asking for a friend. :lol:


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

DavidA said:


> Sachs of course was a follower of Luther ahead of the city council which later became Protestant. It is notable that Sachs became widowed in 1560 but remarried in 1561. Hence of course the story in the opera with Eva is entirely fictional


You mean Meistersinger is not a fact-based documentary? I'm shocked. :lol:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Barbebleu said:


> You mean Meistersinger is not a fact-based documentary? I'm shocked. :lol:


No neither is the Ring, which surprises me given the weight some people attach to it! :lol:


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

DavidA said:


> No neither is the Ring, which surprises me given the weight some people attach to it!


Der Ring is based on facts, it narrates of how the world is destroyed by financial scheming.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

An interesting essay about the opera, and two recordings.

http://conradlosborne.com/2021/01/17/die-meistersinger-1-new-1-old/


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)




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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

DavidA said:


> Austria. A certain WA Mozart whose genius blows Wagner (and every other opera composer) out of the window.


Sigh...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozart's_nationality


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## Agamenon (Apr 22, 2019)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> The only cure for Meistersinger-mania is Tristan und Isolde.


The only cure for Tristan-mania is Meistersingers.:lol:

After 30 years addicted to Tristan, now Meistersingers is my fave work.


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## Agamenon (Apr 22, 2019)

And, another addiction is DG: 9 cds and 7 videos.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Can I get some opinions on the Karajan 1970 recording vs. Sawallisch on EMI. Pros and cons of conducting, singers, and sound quality. Thanks!

Edit: The cheap (6 dollars) Sawallisch recording got sold so I pulled the trigger on the Karajan. Sealed copy of the EMI Dresden set for 14 bucks.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

starthrower said:


> Can I get some opinions on the Karajan 1970 recording vs. Sawallisch on EMI. Pros and cons of conducting, singers, and sound quality. Thanks!
> 
> Edit: The cheap (6 dollars) Sawallisch recording got sold so I pulled the trigger on the Karajan. Sealed copy of the EMI Dresden set for 14 bucks.


I can't comment on the Karajan, but the Sawallisch is well-conducted and well-sung. Ben Heppner (Walther), Cheryl Studer (Eva), Kurt Moll (Pogner), Siegfried Lorenz (Beckmesser) and Deon van der Walt (David) are all first-class, and the only letdown is Bernd Weikl (Sachs), who seems a little weak and maybe not in his best voice, although it's still a pleasing voice, as are all the other voices in the cast. The sound is fine. Very recommendable.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Thanks, Woodduck! I should have known better than to hesitate on a cheaply listed version. Hopefully I'll enjoy the Karajan and maybe get to the Swallisch eventually. I like his early 60s live Lohengrin.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

I rather like the Karajan. It was the first one I ever heard and it still remains a favourite.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

starthrower said:


> Can I get some opinions on the Karajan 1970 recording vs. Sawallisch on EMI. Pros and cons of conducting, singers, and sound quality. Thanks!
> 
> Edit: The cheap (6 dollars) Sawallisch recording got sold so I pulled the trigger on the Karajan. Sealed copy of the EMI Dresden set for 14 bucks.


The Karajan is excellent. You'll enjoy it.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

starthrower said:


> Can I get some opinions on the Karajan 1970 recording vs. Sawallisch on EMI. Pros and cons of conducting, singers, and sound quality. Thanks!


You need both. I think that the Karajan has great performances from Donath and Schreier, and it's one of Kollo's better recordings. The Sawallisch features the finest Stolzing on record (Heppner) and fine performances from van der Walt and Moll. Sound is great on both, but both have suboptimal singers in the role of Hans Sachs, unfortunately.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Itullian got me addicted to this opera! I'm enjoying the Karajan since it arrived yesterday. I'm also addicted to Lohengrin. Strangely after several years I am still not addicted to The Ring. But I just haven't gotten to know it well enough. It's so massive! This is one of my listening goals over the winter. To listen to all four of those operas several times.


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