# Der Ring Des Nibelungen; first time over 3 days and personal evaluation thereafter.



## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

Something I wanted to do for a while now is watch a opera, which I have never done before in full, and what's better than a 4 opera cycle by the arguably greatest opera composer - Wagner?

As someone familiar but not a avid viewer of operas I was just wondering before I embark on the epic journey if anyone has any advice at all, anything I should prepare (apart from a big feast to last the 3 days) 

One thing for sure is I will read up on the narritive of each of the four operas to get a sense of what the story is about exactly, the characters, ect.


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## lextune (Nov 25, 2016)

Are you talking about attending the Opera? Or watching a DVD? I assume the later, and of course the next question becomes, what performance are you planning to watch?


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

lextune said:


> Are you talking about attending the Opera? Or watching a DVD? I assume the later, and of course the next question becomes, what performance are you planning to watch?


I know some people might think down on me for watching a Opera at home on Youtube, but I couldn't afford to go to a real one, not that there is any performances within a 100-200 mile radius of me. But I am watching a performance conducted by Boulez, the rest of the cast atleast for Das Rheingold being:

Wotan: Donald McIntyre
Donner: Martin Egel
Froh: Siegfried Jerusalem
Loge: Heinz Zednik
Alberich: Hermann Becht
Mime: Helmut Pampuch
Fasolt: Matti Salminen
Fafner: Fritz Hübner
Fricka: Hanna Schwarz
Freia: Carmen Reppel
Erda: Ortrun Wenkel
Woglinde: Norma Sharp
Wellgunde: Ilse Gramatzki
Flosshilde: Marga Schiml


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

JamieHoldham said:


> I know some people might think down on me for watching a Opera at home on Youtube, but I couldn't afford to go to a real one, not that there is any performances within a 100-200 mile radius of me. But I am watching a performance conducted by Boulez.


I think you may safely dismiss the opinion of anyone who would sneer at you for watching an Opera at home on Youtube. I have the Levine performance from the Met on DVD. (I specifically wanted a traditional presentation.) How are you finding the Boulez? (And, is this your first time listening to the full opera, or have you heard it in full on CD, or whatever, before?)

(And does youtube give you the option of seeing the subtitles during the performance? I have found that a helpful feature on the DVDs.)


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

JAS said:


> I think you may safely dismiss the opinion of anyone who would sneer at you for watching an Opera at home on Youtube. I have the Levine performance from the Met on DVD. (I specifically wanted a traditional presentation.) How are you finding the Boulez? (And, is this your first time listening to the full opera, or have you heard it in full on CD, or whatever, before?)
> 
> (And does youtube give you the option of seeing the subtitles during the performance? I have found that a helpful feature on the DVDs.)


Indeed it does have english subtitles which will be a extreme benefit, and this is my first time watching the opera in full, the only scene I have ever seen is in Die Walkure, the famous "Ride of the Valkyries".

In regards to how I find Boulez, this would be my first time hearing him conduct personally, I had a sneak peek at the Prelude and whilst its not the most captivating performance I have heard, it's not bad ethier.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I highly recommend this book which is the translation used in Goodall's English Ring.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393008673


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## Faustian (Feb 8, 2015)

Honestly, the resources available for the newcomer and the number of critical analyses and plot summaries are almost endless it seems. It just depends how far down the rabbit hole you are willing to go.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Faustian said:


> Honestly, the resources available for the newcomer and the number of critical analyses and plot summaries are almost endless it seems. *It just depends how far down the rabbit hole you are willing to go.*


Don't hesitate to go deep. I went so far down the rabbit hole that my best friends now are gryphons, mock turtles, and cheshire cats. I love nothing more than to take my vorpal sword, go snicker-snack, and bushwhack my way through the slithy toves and mimsy borogoves to where the mome raths outgrabe and still outgrab, in hopes of catching a glimpse of Fafner.

C'mon down! 'Tis brillig!


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## Faustian (Feb 8, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Don't hesitate to go deep. I went so far down the rabbit hole that my best friends now are gryphons, mock turtles, and cheshire cats. I love nothing more than to take my vorpal sword, go snicker-snack, and bushwhack my way through the slithy toves and mimsy borogoves to where the mome raths outgrabe and still outgrab, in hopes of catching a glimpse of Fafner.
> 
> C'mon down! 'Tis brillig!


That's the spirit! I'll tell you what Jamie, I'll recommend some of my favorite assets, and you can choose whether to dabble or just dive-in head first.

An Introduction to Der Ring des Nibelungen by Deryck Cooke

This gives a fantastic overview of the music, provides keys on what to listen for, and helps for a better understanding of the structure of The Ring.

Many commentators have told the story of the Ring cycle in their own words, sometimes at considerable length -- for example, Ernest Newman in what is perhaps the most engaging example of the genre. Check out his book, The Wagner Operas, if you're looking for this sort of thing.

Among early commentaries one stands out, to my mind as indispensable and that is the record of Wagner's directions at the first Bayreuth performance, written down by the composer's intimate friend and disciple, Heinrich Porges. It is called Wagner Rehearsing the Ring. Porges' work offers a unique insight into Wagner's own understanding of his masterpiece, and a moving account of a young musician's response to its message. Although Porges did not venture a comprehensive analysis, he recounts, in his own words and also in Wagner's, the dramatic significance of crucial passages in the score.

For commentators that do offer some kind of analysis, an early and famous one is Bernard Shaw's allegorical reading of the Ring cycle, The Perfect Wagnerite. More recently, in one of the most thorough accounts of The Ring to date, Paul Heise has put forth a comparable allegorical interpretation, aligning the characters and actions of the drama with the forces at work in forging civilization from the raw material of nature. He derives his allegory from a close reading of the philosophy of Wagner's early mentor Ludwig Feuerbach, as well as from Wagner's own voluminous writings. The allegory is spelled out carefully, with the leitmotifs identified at every occurrence, so that the reader can click on the score and hear the music. This invaluable aid can be found at Wagnerheim.

Several other commentators have explored the deeper meaning of the symbolism found in the work. Light has been cast by the Jungian account offered by Robert Donington, by the patient but incomplete work of Deryck Cooke, by the listener's companion and concordance of J. K. Holman, by the engaging radio talks of Father Owen Lee and by the fascinating study of Wotan's search for an ending by Philip Kitcher and Richard Schacht. Thanks to such works of criticism and analysis, Wagner's artistic aims and musical language are beginning to be accorded their true artistic significance. All the commentators mentioned agree that the music of The Ring is the wellspring from which the motives and emotions of the characters are drawn.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

JamieHoldham said:


> I know some people might think down on me for watching a Opera at home on Youtube, but I couldn't afford to go to a real one, not that there is any performances within a 100-200 mile radius of me. But I am watching a performance conducted by Boulez, the rest of the cast atleast for Das Rheingold being:
> 
> Wotan: Donald McIntyre
> Donner: Martin Egel
> ...


This is a pretty fair performance. This was the centenary Ring. I have it on DVD and CD and still enjoy it. BTW I hope you're keeping well Jamie.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Don't hesitate to go deep. I went so far down the rabbit hole that my best friends now are gryphons, mock turtles, and cheshire cats. I love nothing more than to take my vorpal sword, go snicker-snack, and bushwhack my way through the slithy toves and mimsy borogoves to where the mome raths outgrabe and still outgrab, in hopes of catching a glimpse of Fafner.
> 
> C'mon down! 'Tis brillig!


But "Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun the frumious Bandersnatch!"


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

JamieHoldham said:


> Something I wanted to do for a while now is watch a opera, which I have never done before in full, and what's better than a 4 opera cycle by the arguably greatest opera composer - Wagner?
> 
> As someone familiar but not a avid viewer of operas I was just wondering before I embark on the epic journey if anyone has any advice at all, anything I should prepare (apart from a big feast to last the 3 days)
> 
> One thing for sure is I will read up on the narritive of each of the four operas to get a sense of what the story is about exactly, the characters, ect.


If you haven't watched an opera before I'd start with Mozart instead! I have the Ring on DVD but have never have had patience yto get through it. In the end the sheer long windedness of it and the banality of the libretti defeats me.


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## Faustian (Feb 8, 2015)

DavidA said:


> If you haven't watched an opera before I'd start with Mozart instead! I have the Ring on DVD but have never have had patience yto get through it. In the end the sheer long windedness of it and the banality of the libretti defeats me.


Of all the criticisms of The Ring one could have, an accusation of banality strikes me as perhaps the most incomprehensible. Are you kidding, the work is brimming with originality and imagination. As the pianist Sviaoslav Richter said of The Ring, "I'm convinced that it's impossibleto wish for anything better. This is true happiness! I can understand why Wagner is so inaccessible to the vast majority of listeners -- they fail to lift themselves up to the same height. Unfortunately, they are too lazy, too mean-spirited, lacking in the necessary imagination. Between Wagner and them there lies a (gigantic) gulf."


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

JamieHoldham said:


> Something I wanted to do for a while now is watch a opera, which I have never done before in full, and what's better than a 4 opera cycle by the arguably greatest opera composer - Wagner?
> 
> As someone familiar but not a avid viewer of operas I was just wondering before I embark on the epic journey if anyone has any advice at all, anything I should prepare (apart from a big feast to last the 3 days)
> 
> One thing for sure is I will read up on the narritive of each of the four operas to get a sense of what the story is about exactly, the characters, ect.


I'm sure you will wind up knowing more than 80% of the other attendees because you will have done the proper background research before attending.

I would play recordings of each opera to familiarize myself with the music before attending, with libretto in hand.

Enjoy!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> If you haven't watched an opera before I'd start with Mozart instead! I have the Ring on DVD but have never have had patience yto get through it. In the end the sheer long windedness of it and the banality of the libretti defeats me.


Maybe _you'd_ start with Mozart, but I'm glad _I_ didn't start there. I saw _The Marriage of Figaro_ on TV when I was 17 or so, already a lover of Wagner, Bellini, and Verdi, and was thoroughly bored. In the end, a bunch of conventional, unimaginative upstairs-downstairs types in pink waistcoats or muslin aprons plotting their little domestic intrigues and twittering out miles of recitative, a few nice tunes, and formulaic cadences that repeat, words and all, four times, couldn't persuade me of the value of sacrificing four hours I'd rather have spent in the grand and magical spaces of Wagner's universe.

It was inevitable that you'd show up on a Wagner thread to tell us for the fiftieth time that you can't appreciate Wagner. So I thought a little tit for tat was just the thing to shed light on, and make light of, the matter. You are chuckling, aren't you?

P.S. Whence comes this notion that newcomers to opera need to start with pretty tunes and everyday characters and stories? Why do people usually recommend _La Boheme_ or _Carmen?_ Those may be "safe" recommendations, but some people - I would hope many people - appreciate having their imaginations piqued and their awareness expanded. Mimi and Rodolfo never did that for me, but Kundry and Parsifal sure as hell did.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Just remember, if you get hooked on the supertitles, you will miss the operas.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Faustian said:


> Of all the criticisms of The Ring one could have, an accusation of banality strikes me as perhaps the most incomprehensible. Are you kidding, *the work is brimming with originality and imagination.* As the pianist Sviaoslav Richter said of The Ring, "I'm convinced that it's impossibleto wish for anything better. This is true happiness! *I can understand why Wagner is so inaccessible to the vast majority of listeners -- they fail to lift themselves up to the same height.* Unfortunately, they are too lazy, too mean-spirited, lacking in the necessary imagination. *Between Wagner and them there lies a (gigantic) gulf."*


Brimming, bursting, blowing down doors! That's Wagner the man, and that's his work. The human imagination never found a more potent vessel. I can understand not liking Wagner's music or his sensibility; no one can like everything. But to miss his power, the sheer force and scope of his creative genius...? You have to have been hiding out somewhere. Perhaps in the Countess Almaviva's boudoir.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Maybe _you'd_ start with Mozart, but I'm glad _I_ didn't start there. I saw _The Marriage of Figaro_ on TV when I was 17 or so, already a lover of Wagner, Bellini, and Verdi, and was thoroughly bored. In the end, a bunch of conventional, unimaginative upstairs-downstairs types in pink waistcoats or muslin aprons plotting their little domestic intrigues and twittering out miles of recitative, a few nice tunes, and formulaic cadences that repeat, words and all, four times, couldn't persuade me of the value of sacrificing four hours I'd rather have spent in the grand and magical spaces of Wagner's universe.
> 
> It was inevitable that you'd show up on a Wagner thread to tell us for the fiftieth time that you can't appreciate Wagner. So I thought a little tit for tat was just the thing to shed light on, and make light of, the matter. You are chuckling, aren't you?
> 
> P.S. Whence comes this notion that newcomers to opera need to start with pretty tunes and everyday characters and stories? Why do people usually recommend _La Boheme_ or _Carmen?_ Those may be "safe" recommendations, but some people - I would hope many people - appreciate having their imaginations piqued and their awareness expanded. Mimi and Rodolfo never did that for me, but Kundry and Parsifal sure as hell did.


Couldn't agree more. Wagner was my first foray into opera and I've never looked back. Mozart opera is still a struggle for me to appreciate beyond the nice arias.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> Maybe _you'd_ start with Mozart, but I'm glad _I_ didn't start there. I saw _The Marriage of Figaro_ on TV when I was 17 or so, already a lover of Wagner, Bellini, and Verdi, and was thoroughly bored. In the end, a bunch of conventional, unimaginative upstairs-downstairs types in pink waistcoats or muslin aprons plotting their little domestic intrigues and twittering out miles of recitative, a few nice tunes, and formulaic cadences that repeat, words and all, four times, couldn't persuade me of the value of sacrificing four hours I'd rather have spent in the grand and magical spaces of Wagner's universe.
> 
> It was inevitable that you'd show up on a Wagner thread to tell us for the fiftieth time that you can't appreciate Wagner. So I thought a little tit for tat was just the thing to shed light on, and make light of, the matter. You are chuckling, aren't you?
> 
> P.S. Whence comes this notion that newcomers to opera need to start with pretty tunes and everyday characters and stories? Why do people usually recommend _La Boheme_ or _Carmen?_ Those may be "safe" recommendations, but some people - I would hope many people - appreciate having their imaginations piqued and their awareness expanded. Mimi and Rodolfo never did that for me, but Kundry and Parsifal sure as hell did.


I stand with Woodduck here. My 1st exposure to opera was Non piu andrai, an aria I dislike to this day. Fortunately I heard Wotan's farewell just days later & the rest is history. The transformative power, imagination, passion, & sheer epicness of The Ring are what I live for. Banality is a word I would more closely associate with Mozart...for the record, I'm studying Don G for a performance as we speak, & enjoying it, so I'm not entirely clueless on old Wolfgang


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> Couldn't agree more. Wagner was my first foray into opera and I've never looked back. Mozart opera is still a struggle for me to appreciate beyond the nice arias.


We can learn to appreciate things we don't much like. I was of course caricaturing Mozart a bit to counter DavidA's remarks (which I fear represent his actual perceptions of Wagner). There's no denying the beauty of Mozart's music. But once we've witnessed the complex emotional conflicts of Wotan and Brunnhilde, entered into the tormented psyches of Tristan or Kundry, or seen how evil is born, and how it fails, in Alberich and Klingsor, what is there to say about the predictable, one-dimensional types who populate _Cosi_, _Don Giovanni_, or _Figaro_? When Parsifal forgives Kundry on Good Friday morning after what they have gone through, and Wagner's sublime music virtually sheds tears of tenderness, a world of pain is invoked and cleansed. But when the Countess Almaviva forgives her husband for being (for the nth time?) a philanderer and a jerk, are we supposed to let a lovely musical phrase convince us that her magnanimity is anything but the hollow, compulsory gesture of a woman with no real choice, and that anyone has actually evolved or learned anything?


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> We can learn to appreciate things we don't much like. I was of course caricaturing Mozart a bit to counter DavidA's remarks (which I fear represent his actual perceptions of Wagner). There's no denying the beauty of Mozart's music. But once we've witnessed the complex emotional conflicts of Wotan and Brunnhilde, entered into the tormented psyches of Tristan or Kundry, or seen how evil is born, and how it fails, in Alberich and Klingsor, what is there to say about the predictable, one-dimensional types who populate _Cosi_, _Don Giovanni_, or _Figaro_? When Parsifal forgives Kundry on Good Friday morning after what they have gone through, and Wagner's sublime music virtually sheds tears of tenderness, a world of pain is invoked and cleansed. But when the Countess Almaviva forgives her husband for being (for the nth time?) a philanderer and a jerk, are we supposed to let a lovely musical phrase convince us that her magnanimity is anything but the hollow, compulsory gesture of a woman with no real choice, and that anyone has actually evolved or learned anything?


I have no problem with Mozart the composer when it comes to his instrumental output, particularly his string quartets and piano sonatas. I love his concert arias too. It's his operas that fail to engage with me or me to engage with them. Simplistic, and occasionally, rather unpleasant tales that seem to me to be vehicles for big tunes with little or no real depth to the characters. Cosi, Entführung and Zaüberflöte seem most guilty in the distasteful stakes.


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## ma7730 (Jun 8, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> But when the Countess Almaviva forgives her husband for being (for the nth time?) a philanderer and a jerk, are we supposed to let a lovely musical phrase convince us that her magnanimity is anything but the hollow, compulsory gesture of a woman with no real choice, and that anyone has actually evolved or learned anything?


Yes.



Barbebleu said:


> I have no problem with Mozart the composer when it comes to his instrumental output, particularly his string quartets and piano sonatas. I love his concert arias too. It's his operas that fail to engage with me or me to engage with them. Simplistic, and occasionally, rather unpleasant tales that seem to me to be vehicles for big tunes with little or no real depth to the characters. Cosi, Entführung and Zaüberflöte seem most guilty in the distasteful stakes.


Mozart is the last composer I would think people would describe as "distasteful" or "simplistic". Perhaps because his operas don't have the thundering orchestra of a Wagner work you think this? It's just a different form, and one that's perfectly suited to elevate these characters into a plane of "true" existence. When there are pretty tunes, they're not there for their own sake. They always fit the action.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> I have no problem with Mozart the composer when it comes to his instrumental output, particularly his string quartets and piano sonatas. I love his concert arias too. It's his operas that fail to engage with me or me to engage with them. Simplistic, and occasionally, rather unpleasant tales that seem to me to be vehicles for big tunes with little or no real depth to the characters. Cosi, Entführung and Zaüberflöte seem most guilty in the distasteful stakes.


I wouldn't expect depth of character in _Zauberflote._ It's a fairy tale, a fanciful entertainment, with a little Masonic moralism thrown in. I know people have tried to read more into it, but that seems like unnecessary overlay. Its music is wonderful, at times really moving (Mozart couldn't help himself), and I can enjoy it as such. I think the Ingmar Bergman film got its spirit just right. _Entfuhrung_ I've never sat through entire, so I don't have an opinion. Again, some delightful music, though I have to wonder what the soprano is expected to do onstage while waiting through a virtual concerto movement to sing "Marten aller Arten." _Cosi fan tutte_ is the oddest amalgam of gorgeous music and dramatic silliness and cynicism I know of. I get the feeling that Mozart didn't care what his operas were about so long as he could get a well-written libretto that provided ample musical opportunities - an attitude not unique to him, of course. Beethoven and Wagner both had grave reservations about _Cosi_'s split personality.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Faustian said:


> Of all the criticisms of The Ring one could have, an accusation of banality strikes me as perhaps the most incomprehensible. Are you kidding, the work is brimming with originality and imagination. As the pianist Sviaoslav Richter said of The Ring, "I'm convinced that it's impossibleto wish for anything better. This is true happiness! I can understand why Wagner is so inaccessible to the vast majority of listeners -- they fail to lift themselves up to the same height. Unfortunately, they are too lazy, too mean-spirited, lacking in the necessary imagination. Between Wagner and them there lies a (gigantic) gulf."


You do realise that Richter was somewhat an eccentric himself! I said btw the libretti were banal an opinion of which I have been in possession of after actually watching the things. Actually Richter's statement shows the way brilliant musicians can live in the their ivory tower without actually comprehending just what the ordinary music lover is capable of. No, I don't think Wagner's libretti are banal compared to da Ponte's or Boito's because I am "too lazy, too mean-spirited, lacking in the necessary imagination" - it's because having read them and seen them I think they are!
Also for other people for some reason trying to counter my remarks by being mean spirited to Mozart is amusing as just makes them look bad. You just can't do that with Wolfie and come out of it well! No if you are going to do an opera stint at least treat yourself to the da Ponte operas first.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> You do realise that Richter was somewhat an eccentric himself! I said btw the libretti were banal an opinion of which I have been in possession of after actually watching the things. Actually Richter's statement shows the way brilliant musicians can live in the their ivory tower without actually comprehending just what the ordinary music lover is capable of. No, I don't think Wagner's libretti are banal compared to da Ponte's or Boito's because I am "too lazy, too mean-spirited, lacking in the necessary imagination" - it's because having read them and seen them I think they are!
> *Also for other people for some reason trying to counter my remarks by being mean spirited to Mozart is amusing as just makes them look bad. You just can't do that with Wolfie and come out of it well!* No if you are going to do an opera stint at least treat yourself to the da Ponte operas first.


Now, now, David! Wolfie is a pleasant (if unnecessarily dirty-minded) bloke toward whom I wouldn't dream of being mean-spirited!

I simply find it astonishing that Mozart missionaries feel the need go hunting down discussions of Wagner's mighty genius to say things like "Hey! Don't begin listening to opera by jumping head first into those long-winded, incomprehensible, unpleasant Teutonic monstrosities! Surely you'd be better off consuming an 18th-century confection in which a misogynistic old cynic gambles with the emotional well-being of young people, or an amoral sociopath goes around seducing women who then spend the evening acting morally outraged while their impotent boyfriends sing pretty songs with coloratura!"

Don't you see? The man wants to get into Wagner. God bless him and guide him! Don't fret. Wolfie isn't going anywhere. He won't be forgotten. He'll wait. There's always room for angel food cake and whipped cream after dinner.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I must confess feeling sorry for anyone who finds Figaro boring. To me it is the most fascinating study in character in opera. We can identify with each character in a way we cannot (at least I can't) with Wagner. I mean, if you were a teen in love who would you identify with - Siegfried unveiling his aunt or Cherubino pining? The music illustrates the emotions of the characters in a way no other does. Just listen to the heartbroken 'Dove Sono'. Catches the longing of the wronged woman. Sorry those of you who are bored by these 'little domestic intrigues' as to me it bespeaks genius of the utmost order. Mozart's breathtaking genius creates characters we can all identify with and illustrates them with some of the greatest music ever written..


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

DavidA said:


> I must confess feeling sorry for anyone who finds Figaro boring. To me it is the most fascinating study in character in opera. We can identify with each character in a way we cannot (at least I can't) with Wagner. I mean, if you were a teen in love who would you identify with - Siegfried unveiling his aunt or Cherubino pining? The music illustrates the emotions of the characters in a way no other does. Just listen to the heartbroken 'Dove Sono'. Catches the longing of the wronged woman. Sorry those of you who are bored by these 'little domestic intrigues' as to me it bespeaks genius of the utmost order. Mozart's breathtaking genius creates characters we can all identify with and illustrates them with some of the greatest music ever written..


So you prefer Mozart to Wagner. I could say that I feel sorry for those that don't get Wagner but that would imply that I care. I prefer Wagner to Mozart but I also prefer Mahler, Shostakovich and Britten to Mozart but please don't feel sorry for me. I don't thinking I'm missing out and at the end of the day who cares that much about other peoples musical likes and dislikes. It's always good to share opinions with those with similar likes but fruitless to argue the toss with those who differ. Enjoy your Mozart and I will continue to enjoy Wagner.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

DavidA said:


> I must confess feeling sorry for anyone who finds Figaro boring. To me it is the most fascinating study in character in opera. We can identify with each character in a way we cannot (at least I can't) with Wagner. I mean, if you were a teen in love who would you identify with - Siegfried unveiling his aunt or Cherubino pining? The music illustrates the emotions of the characters in a way no other does. Just listen to the heartbroken 'Dove Sono'. Catches the longing of the wronged woman. Sorry those of you who are bored by these 'little domestic intrigues' as to me it bespeaks genius of the utmost order. Mozart's breathtaking genius creates characters we can all identify with and illustrates them with some of the greatest music ever written..


What you described sounds to me like going to the theatre to watch a soap opera accompanied by pretty music. What I want is something transcendent if I'm going to spend my money. Wagner provides that. Go ahead & feel sorry for me


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Barbebleu said:


> *So you like Mozart and don't like Wagner. *I could say that I feel sorry for those that don't get Wagner but that would imply that I care. I prefer Wagner to Mozart but I also prefer Mahler, Shostakovich and Britten to Mozart but please don't feel sorry for me. I don't thinking I'm missing out and at the end of the day who cares that much about other peoples musical likes and dislikes. It's always good to share opinions with those with similar likes but fruitless to argue the toss with those who differ. Enjoy your Mozart and I will continue to enjoy Wagner.


Correction. I didn't say I didn't enjoy some Wagner. So,me of the music is amazing. I said I didn't appreciate his banal and often ridiculous libretti.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Bonetan said:


> *What you described sounds to me like going to the theatre to watch a soap opera accompanied by pretty music. *What I want is something transcendent if I'm going to spend my money. Wagner provides that. Go ahead & feel sorry for me


Now I've heard everything! :lol:


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

DavidA said:


> Now I've heard everything! :lol:


Ok, a teenage drama then


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> I must confess feeling sorry for anyone who finds Figaro boring. To me it is the most fascinating study in character in opera. We can identify with each character in a way we cannot (at least I can't) with Wagner. I mean, if you were a teen in love who would you identify with - Siegfried unveiling his aunt or Cherubino pining? The music illustrates the emotions of the characters in a way no other does. Just listen to the heartbroken 'Dove Sono'. Catches the longing of the wronged woman. Sorry those of you who are bored by these 'little domestic intrigues' as to me it bespeaks genius of the utmost order. Mozart's breathtaking genius creates characters we can all identify with and illustrates them with some of the greatest music ever written..


How condescending to "feel sorry" for people who don't share your tastes in opera. We must hope that having to "confess" your pity was not too painful for you.

It's always good to talk specifics. If you must know, I was nothing like Cherubino as a teenager, and I'm rather glad of it. I wasn't much like Siegfried either, but I fail to see how either of these facts reflects upon the value of these operas as works of art. What we have here, personal identification with the characters aside, is a rather conventional conception of an adolescent, living in a specific social milieu, discovering sexual passion, alongside an imaginative projection of an uncultured boy whose only experience of femaleness has been the observation of animals in the forest. If some of us find the second conception, along with the sort of music it has engendered, more interesting than the first, I fail to see why this strikes you as warranting derogatory comments.

Assertions that "we can all identify" with Mozart's characters and that arias such as "Voi che sapete" and "Dove sono" rank with the "greatest music ever written" (and never mind those recitatives!) are objectively baseless, and it's arrogant to assert them as if they were truth.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Bonetan said:


> Ok, a teenage drama then


As there its only two teenagers in Figaro perhaps you might like to hear it before giving an opinion? :lol:


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

DavidA said:


> As there its only two teenagers in Figaro perhaps you might like to hear it before giving an opinion? :lol:


"Teen in love" were your exact words bro


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

Well I got alot more from this thread than I thought I would, where there's Wagner, there are arguments........ 






Good entertainment though :lol:


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

JamieHoldham said:


> Well I got alot more from this thread than I thought I would, where there's Wagner, there are arguments........
> 
> Good entertainment though :lol:


Richard Wagner and Maria Callas are the dynamic duo of this opera forum. Hate him/her or love him/her, one must acknowledge the fact that it is highly unusual for a great figure in music to create that much ripples. 

People do fight about whether Bach is dry and formulaic, Mozart-superficial, Beethoven-awkward and esoteric , Heifetz-cold and heartless, Mengelberg, Furtwangler, Gould, du Pre-too eccentric, but their fan/anti-fan settle things down more quietly it seems


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

JamieHoldham said:


> Well I got alot more from this thread than I thought I would, where there's Wagner, there are arguments........
> 
> Good entertainment though :lol:


I'm sorry to be a part of the derailing of your thread! I hope you're enjoying the hell out of the Ring!!


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

JamieHoldham said:


> Well I got alot more from this thread than I thought I would, where there's Wagner, there are arguments........ Good entertainment though :lol:


I see an advertising campaign:

OPERA -- the passion isn't just on the stage!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Bonetan said:


> "Teen in love" were your exact words bro


Mind you I know someone who wrote an opera about a teenage boy who goes off with his aunt. Can't think who it is! :lol:


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

Bonetan said:


> I'm sorry to be a part of the derailing of your thread! I hope you're enjoying the hell out of the Ring!!


Hah, no worrys, and as the Opera goes I haven't seen it yet, just preparing myself and reading the story so I get a sense of where I stand and don't walk into it blindly.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

silentio said:


> Richard Wagner and Maria Callas are the dynamic duo of this opera forum. Hate him/her or love him/her, one must acknowledge the fact that it is highly unusual for a great figure in music to create that much ripples.
> 
> People do fight about whether Bach is dry and formulaic, Mozart-superficial, Beethoven-awkward and esoteric , Heifetz-cold and heartless, Mengelberg, Furtwangler, Gould, du Pre-too eccentric, but their fan/anti-fan settle things down more quietly it seems


Wagner is the all-time champion ripple-creator, beating out Callas by a considerable margin.

There are really only two major controversies about Callas: whether her voice is beautiful, ugly, both, or something in between, and whether the media image of her as a temperamental tigress is accurate. The latter is easily fact-checked nowadays (the answer is mostly no), while the former will always be a matter of personal taste. Other disagreements, about such questions as what factors contributed to the loss of her voice, are confined mostly to her admirers and the small circle of vocally knowledgeable opera lovers.

By contrast, Wagner is and always has been the subject of a seemingly endless stream of books and essays, by people in a wide range of disciplines, examining and debating what sort of person he was, what his works have to say, and what was his influence on music, culture, and history. It's been said that more has been written about him than any person in history except Jesus, and I suspect that he may have pulled out ahead in the race by now. Like Jesus, Wagner tends to be whoever and whatever his admirers and detractors want him to be; but in his case we do at least have very detailed records of what he said, wrote and did to keep our imaginations in check (not that that stops determined purveyors of "alternative facts").

To anyone just getting into Wagner, the warning goes out: _you know not what you do!_

But don't let that stop you. He's more than worth it.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Mind you I know someone who wrote an opera about a teenage boy who goes off with his aunt. Can't think who it is! :lol:


But apparently Brunnhilde's aging was suspended while she slept, so she was much closer to Siefgried in age when they met.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

JamieHoldham said:


> Something I wanted to do for a while now is watch a opera, which I have never done before in full, and what's better than a 4 opera cycle by the arguably greatest opera composer - Wagner?
> 
> As someone familiar but not a avid viewer of operas I was just wondering before I embark on the epic journey if anyone has any advice at all, anything I should prepare (apart from a big feast to last the 3 days)
> 
> One thing for sure is I will read up on the narritive of each of the four operas to get a sense of what the story is about exactly, the characters, ect.


Jumping in with a long cycle is ambitious, but far be it from me to discourage you.

But I would consider giving yourself some time in between the operas. Most live productions (including the original run at Bayreuth) perform the four dramas over almost a week. (But some of that may be due to logistics and allowing the singers some rest; not an issue with recordings).

The other thing I'd note is that while it's a good idea to read synopses beforehand, you may well be pondering what the Ring is about for years to come. You will likely also find that there are many different ways of understanding the Ring. Different productions and singers will have different takes on the characters, and even on what happens, exactly. There are a lot of details in the libretto, but not everything is laid out. And much is still up to interpretation.

As for the Ring you've selected to watch, directed by Patrice Chéreau, an important companion is George Bernard Shaw's The Perfect Wagnerite. It's from 1898 and quite fascinating hearing such thoughtful commentary from so close to the premiere. I think he misunderstands several key things, but it is still insightful (of course there wasn't near the amount of scholarship available at the time, nor recordings, etc.) Chéreau's production seems to be significantly influenced by Shaw's take on the Ring (though thankfully Chéreau does not dismiss Götterdämerung).


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Florestan said:


> But apparently Brunnhilde's aging was suspended while she slept, so she was much closer to Siefgried in age when they met.


It's like the story of "The Sleeping Beauty." Princess Aurora slept for a hundred years. The prince didn't know, she didn't tell, and they lived h. e. a.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

If you were looking for only a single opera to check out, I would recommend Bernstein's Fidelio DVD with Janowitz (get it for later anyway, its great). But why do that when the first opera in the ring (technically the prelude) is stand alone. But it does leave you yearning for more of the story, so thankfully there are three operas worth of that.

What helped me most in transitioning from Rheingold to the three operas was knowledge of what happens between Rheingold and Walkure. This website tells about that and has brief synopses of the four operas:
http://www.well.com/user/woodman/singthing/ring/story.html
That is really all I read before watching. Then the subtitles carried me along just fine, but reading the English translation of the libretto after the video is revealing things I forgot or missed in watching the videos.

You should also give this a quick watch (2.5 minutes) as it is what got me to check out the Ring in the first place:


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

JamieHoldham said:


> Hah, no worrys, and as the Opera goes I haven't seen it yet, just preparing myself and reading the story so I get a sense of where I stand and don't walk into it blindly.


And are you gong to watch it or to hear it?


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

Pugg said:


> And are you gong to watch it or to hear it?


Oh most definitely, probally next week after I visit the Jobcentre then I will have the next 3 days - all week to watch the entire Ring...

although to prepare myself for watching such a titanic length and complex work, I might watch what would probally be my 2nd favourite Opera, Tristan and Isolde first. Unsure yet


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

Or you could do like Wagner wrote them: watch Rheingold, Walküre and the first two acts of Siegfried. Then pop in Meistersinger and Tristan, then finish Siegfried and Götterdämmerung. Just don't take 20 years in between as well.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

gardibolt said:


> Or you could do like Wagner wrote them: watch Rheingold, Walküre and the first two acts of Siegfried. Then pop in Meistersinger and Tristan, then finish Siegfried and Götterdämmerung. Just don't take 20 years in between as well.


Wagner actually wrote the libretti Gotterdamerung backwards


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

> Ring!





> vom Ring!





> Zurück vom Ring!





> *Alberich*
> Zurück vom Ring!





> Weib!
> 
> *Alberich*
> Zurück vom Ring!





> dein Weib!
> 
> *Alberich*
> Zurück vom Ring!


That seems like quite a trick.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

But of course, to ruin my joke, gardibolt was referring to the composition of the music and the completion of the whole of the works. DavidA is referring to the original drafts of the libretti.

Wagner's original conception of the story was to just tell what he then called _Siegfried's Death_. But then he felt the backstory was important, so he wrote the text for _Young Siegfried_. He then wanted more backstory to explain Brünnhilde, and wrote the text for _Siegfried's Conception_. He then felt it would be nice to have a bit on the gods and the water sprites, so he wrote _Siegfried Isn't In This One At All_. Some are glad he stopped there, rather than writing another prequel, about Wotan as an air-elemental; I feel like we lost something.


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## WildThing (Feb 21, 2017)

The Ring and I. A fun introduction to the Ring from WNYC radio.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

My advice would be to take your time if you're planning to experience the entire Ring in one go .
Das Rheingold is in four continuous scenes with no intermission , and at about two and a half hours , the shortest part of the Ring .
But the other three are each in three long acts . So it might help to give yourself a breather between the acs . This will help you keep up your attention span . And believe me, Wagner is not for people with short ones !


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

superhorn said:


> ... And believe me, *Wagner is not for people with short [attention spans]* !


Yep. As quoted in my signature.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> P.S. Whence comes this notion that newcomers to opera need to start with pretty tunes and everyday characters and stories? Why do people usually recommend _La Boheme_ or _Carmen?_


Interestingly, the most "Wow!" reactions I ever got when introducing newcomers to opera were when I took them to see - of all things - _Wozzeck_ and _The Knot Garden_.


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

Just to update this thread, I have made it the next upcoming Monday - Thursday, will be the 4 days I see the Ring cycle in it's entirety as Richard Wagner intended, Das Rhiengold - Die Walkure - Siegfried, and Gotterdammerung.

Read up a little bit about the story in general, the characters also but not enough to spoil anything for me. Very much looking forward to this Gesamtkunstwerk; as Wagner would have referred it as, a "Total Work of Art".

Thank god for Wagner. :angel:


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

JamieHoldham said:


> Just to update this thread, I have made it the next upcoming Monday - Thursday, will be the 4 days I see the Ring cycle in it's entirety as Richard Wagner intended, Das Rhiengold - Die Walkure - Siegfried, and Gotterdammerung.
> 
> Read up a little bit about the story in general, the characters also but not enough to spoil anything for me. Very much looking forward to this Gesamtkunstwerk; as Wagner would have referred it as, a "Total Work of Art".
> 
> Thank god for Wagner. :angel:


WE are looking forward to see how you got on.


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## cheftimmyr (Oct 28, 2015)

JamieHoldham said:


> Just to update this thread, I have made it the next upcoming Monday - Thursday, will be the 4 days I see the Ring cycle in it's entirety as Richard Wagner intended, Das Rhiengold - Die Walkure - Siegfried, and Gotterdammerung.
> 
> Read up a little bit about the story in general, the characters also but not enough to spoil anything for me. Very much looking forward to this Gesamtkunstwerk; as Wagner would have referred it as, a "Total Work of Art".
> 
> Thank god for Wagner. :angel:


Enjoy the masterpiece! I've been listening to opera for a year and a half now; started with a couple Verdi and Puccini, Donizetti (Lucia) and Mozart (Don G). Then i found Wagner, and aside from a few non-Wagners mixed in (Fidelio, Figaro, Magic Flute), the last 14 months has been all Wagner... my first ring Cycle I did in 5 days and was a "eureka" time for me. The Wagner veterans are a treasure trove of help and guidance in what continues to be an epic musical journey. Each time I revisit the Wagner works I find something new, another layer, a treasured discovery that I had until then missed... and I suspect that will continue.

As an aside, Magic Flute and Figaro underwhelmed me; Flute especially. Musically Figaro was enjoyable but I don't think the Mozart operas speak to me as they have, apparently, to so many others, and I'm ok with that.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

cheftimmyr said:


> As an aside, Magic Flute and Figaro underwhelmed me; Flute especially. Musically Figaro was enjoyable but I don't think the Mozart operas speak to me as they have, apparently, to so many others, and I'm ok with that.


Not a problem. I'm not a Mozart opera fan either. Many operas out there to enjoy that you should not run out of new ones to look into. The Ring took me by storm about three months ago. I had one Ring on a big box set of Wagner, but had only listened once. Now I have about seven Rings and love it.


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

Literally just finished Das Rhinegold, the first in the Ring cycle and my first ever Opera seen in full. Die Walkure tommorow, will give my opinions after I finish the entire cycle.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

JamieHoldham said:


> Literally just finished Das Rhinegold, the first in the Ring cycle and my first ever Opera seen in full. Die Walkure tommorow, will give my opinions after I finish the entire cycle.


Up all night long?


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

Pugg said:


> Up all night long?


Indeed, setting my sleep pattern so I can watch all the Operas while my Mum is sleeping and doesn't disturb the experience


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

Just finished Die Walkure, what a rollercaster ride of emotions at the end --- Siegfried next tommorow


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

JamieHoldham said:


> Just finished Die Walkure, what a rollercaster ride of emotions at the end --- Siegfried next tommorow


That's is when the real works start, take a good seat, it takes a while .


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

Just finished Siegfried, tommorow I will watch Gotterdamerung, the final Opera in the Ring cycle. Looking forward to finishing off this Total Work of Art that Wagner has created - sublime.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

JamieHoldham said:


> Just finished Siegfried, tomorrow I will watch Gotterdamerung, the final Opera in the Ring cycle. Looking forward to finishing off this Total Work of Art that Wagner has created - sublime.


How are your feelings so far Jamie ( towards the whole Wagner project)?


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

Not to spoil the small essay describing the entire cycle, individual Operas & the experience, but all I will say so far is I am very happy with the entire journey so far, there have been great climax's and really good build-up + tension which Wagner is such a master of, only complaint so far is in Siegfried where he trys to awaken Brunnhilde thinking it's a man initially, even though it's painfully obvious it's a woman, but that might just be shoddy production from the performance


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

Remember, he's never seen a woman. Ever.


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## mathisdermaler (Mar 29, 2017)

Bring snacks (Talk Classical requires 15 characters so here they are)


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

gardibolt said:


> Remember, he's never seen a woman. Ever.


Gardi, if you've never seen a woman how would you know that what you're looking at is one? Just a thought! :devil:


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Barbebleu said:


> Gardi, if you've never seen a woman how would you know that what you're looking at is one? Just a thought! :devil:


Siegfried didn't. He exclaimed "Das ist kein Mann!"

Could have been a chair, an omelet or a woman.


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## Bill H. (Dec 23, 2010)

It was the "Do Not Disturb" sign that did it.:tiphat:


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

hpowders said:


> Siegfried didn't. He exclaimed "Das its kein Mann!"
> 
> Could have been a chair, an omelet or a woman.


Very true. bbbbb be bbbbbbbbb


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Barbebleu said:


> Very true. bbbbb be bbbbbbbbb


I am here to decipher the undecipherable! :lol:


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

gardibolt said:


> Remember, he's never seen a woman. Ever.


Thanks for clarifying, makes more sense.

Also as anyone is just reading this - I have begun to watch the final Opera in the cycle.

Time to finish this epic Tetraology.


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

Onto the final act!!


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

Just finished the cycle.. and I am strucken with heavy grief and emotion, will need some time to recuperate and write my feelings on this entire total-work of art..


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

JamieHoldham said:


> Just finished the cycle.. and I am strucken with heavy grief and emotion, will need some time to recuperate and write my feelings on this entire total-work of art..


Take your time Jamie, we will wait in patience.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

JamieHoldham said:


> Just finished the cycle.. will need some time to recuperate ..


This is perfectly normal. :tiphat:


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

When you listen or watch with the concentration you have been giving it Jamie, then the redemption theme in the closing bars will cut through you like a knife every time.


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

Well here goes. After finishing the entire Ring cycle I now present this short essay, which I will keep as brief and as simplistic as possible - I could very easily write a book of 5000 - 10,000 words on these 4 Operas but no one would read it. Will split it into 3 parts;

1. The cycle as a whole.
2. Individual Operas.
3. My personal experience.

*Part 1, The cycle:*
4 Operas, one epic story and a relitavely large cast of characters. The story & the music begins quietly, building up towards greater and greater tension, releasing often to important plot points. The music begins especially repetative and simplistic but done amazingly so, and continues to get much more texturally and harmonically richer as the Operas progress further. As for the characters, with the exception of the Rhinemaidens & the Valkyries, they are all easily unique and easily distinguished with there own charateristics & motifs, which leads me to my next point. Motifs are used very extensively and extremely well done, from Siegfrieds' horn call in the distance signalling his coming, to the iconic theme of the Valkyries, they can be asscoiated with the characters not just as a alarm for those who don't know who the character is, but also as a way of understanding the charateristics and personality of the very character. Overall the entire cycle is logically brilliant and coherent, there is little to be improved upon.

*Part 2, individual Operas:*
Das Rhinegold is the first and musically the simplest, although Wagner is still intellectually brilliant even at his "worst", and so this Opera tells the tale of the Rhinegold, the maidens who protect it, and Alberich - the greedy thief wouse torment of not being able to be loved, causes him to forsake love itself, granting him the power to forge and wield the ring, who uses it to serve his own greed and power. Eventually the Opera after focusing on Alberich and the ring leads into the Gods entering Vahalla, the music as they enter filled me with awe and amazement with the woodwind insturments trilling, tremelo high in the violin register and a repetive but powerful motif in the brass, producing a sense of absolute raw power through emotion. One of my favourite parts in all the cycle musically.

Next is Die Walkure, which introduces Brunnhilde, one of the most important characters of the cycle and introducing the Valkyries themselfs. This Opera focuses more on the Gods, and of the course the Valkryires - as is the name of the Opera. A very solemn but also action packed opera - there is battle, glory, death but also a sad undertone with Wotan and his sadness with his wife and Brunnhilde begins to grow. The balance is mixed very well, but I would say this a great opera, but my least favourite out of the four.

Third is Siegfried, with a strong center on Siegfried, building up his character from a unintellegent brutie to a strong noble warrior who trys to learn fear, and faces great challenges such as fighting a dragon, being decieved left, right and center and fighting against mind games, corruption and deciet. Easily my favourite character in the entire cycle, and he is very well done with all his personal struggles I am sure the listeners may be able to relate to somehow. Apart from Siegfried, Wotan gets more attention, and finally battles with Siegfried and gets his spear shattered, and from that point on he isn't to be seen again, but his precense while gone, is still expressed very well by Brunnhilde later on. This would be my 2nd favourite opera, with great character progression and of course, greater music.

Finale - Gotterdamerung, and my favourite Opera out all four. From beginning to end, this opera begins strong and ends magnificently. I wont talk in depth about the end of the storyline here, as there is too much ground to cover, but rest assured every line of dialogue has great significance, and my attention was kept through the whole 4 hours it lasts. My most memorable moment of not only this opera, but the ENTIRE cycle, is Siegfrieds' Funeral March. One of the greatest passages of music in the history of humanity, and Wagner at his absolute best. This funeral march is like no other, and can bring about a range of emotions, sadness, melanchony, pride and power all in the span of moments within each other. And as I grew to knew Siegfried more and more throughout the Opera, when the funeral march played and he had died, it almost felt like I lost a loved one myself, although though is no one I value, no friends, just family.. before I go off tangient, this is my favourite Opera of the entire cycle, and what a way to end this cycle.

*Part 3, my personal experience:*
As my very first Opera, it was very daring to go on to watch such a very large and complex tetraology of Operas, but as a beginner to Operas, I think I handled it well and it goes to show that Wagner while grand and magnificent, with great story telling, can still be understood even by people new to Operas, which is the hallmark of a composer who didn't want to create something that was over dramatic when it didn't need to be - had music that fitted where it needed - and wasn't designed for pesudo-intellectuals. After watching this entire Total Work of Art, I am still comprehending what emotions I have left that have been stirred up from watching something so profound, something that took a man 26 years of his entire life to dedicate himself too, is what impresses me the most. It is truly one of the most iconic, inspirational and greatest Operas to have ever been created. I leave you all with this, my favourite moment in the entire cycle as I previously mentioned, Siegfried's Death and Funeral March, from the same Opera and conductor I watched for my first time, one of the greatest experiences of my life!!!


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

JamieHoldham said:


> my favourite moment in the entire cycle as I previously mentioned, Siegfried's Death and Funeral March


My own favorite musical selections from the operas are both from Gotterdamerung: Siegfried's Death and Funeral March, and the Immolation Scene . . . both very powerful musical statements, but they have to be played well to work.

Don't let anyone stop you from going ahead and writing that book length essay if you feel moved to do so.


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

hpowders said:


> Siegfried didn't. He exclaimed "Das ist kein Mann!"
> 
> Could have been a chair, an omelet or a woman.


Good thing he didn't decide she was an omelet and eat her.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

gardibolt said:


> Good thing he didn't decide she was an omelet and eat her.


Do we know that he has ever seen an omelet before (or at all)? Other than himself and Mime, who has he seen?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

It moves me deeply to read your account of how Wagner's vision has spoken so powerfully to you. It brings back wonderful memories of my own discovery of him many decades ago.

The next time anyone asks us "What opera would you recommend to someone new to opera?", we should think twice before automatically recommending _La Boheme_ or _Carmen._ As Hamlet says to Horatio, "There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy."


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> It moves me deeply to read your account of how Wagner's vision has spoken so powerfully to you. It brings back wonderful memories of my own discovery of him many decades ago.
> 
> The next time anyone asks us "What opera would you recommend to someone new to opera?", we should think twice before automatically recommending _La Boheme_ or _Carmen._ As Hamlet says to Horatio, "There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy."


Aye, to get into Opera as my experience explains, you don't need to listen to a light Opera from Mozart or other lesser known composers. You just need patience more than anything, attention to detail and a general knowledge of the story.

As my desire for Opera has grown, Tristan and Isolde will be my next, and I may do another one of these threads so I can document my first time watching it.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

JAS said:


> Do we know that he has ever seen an omelet before (or at all)? Other than himself and Mime, who has he seen?


He had observed animals raising families, as he noted to Mime. So he mush have has an inkling of what might be in store for him.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

JamieHoldham said:


> Aye, to get into Opera as my experience explains, you don't need to listen to a light Opera from Mozart or other lesser known composers. You just need patience more than anything, attention to detail and a general knowledge of the story.


But it probably helps considerably that you are already steeped in classical music in general.


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> It moves me deeply to read your account of how Wagner's vision has spoken so powerfully to you. It brings back wonderful memories of my own discovery of him many decades ago.
> 
> The next time anyone asks us "What opera would you recommend to someone new to opera?", we should think twice before automatically recommending _La Boheme_ or _Carmen._ As Hamlet says to Horatio, "There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy."


It's funny, when I take people who've not been to opera before, I tend to take them to something that smashes their preconceptions of the art. For example I have taken people to see Elektra, Hoffman or the Ravel double bill. They have all come back. Then they can listen to the more conventional works. This is from a man who loves the major Mozart operas, Carmen and Puccini as well.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

JamieHoldham said:


> Aye, to get into Opera as my experience explains, you don't need to listen to a light Opera from Mozart or other lesser known composers. You just need patience more than anything, attention to detail and a general knowledge of the story.
> 
> As my desire for Opera has grown, Tristan and Isolde will be my next, and I may do another one of these threads so I can document my first time watching it.


This is so true. My wife's 1st opera experience was The Ring Cycle as well. She's been hooked on Wagner ever since!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

JamieHoldham said:


> Aye, to get into Opera as my experience explains, you don't need to listen to a light Opera from Mozart or other lesser known composers. You just need patience more than anything, attention to detail and a general knowledge of the story.
> 
> As my desire for Opera has grown, Tristan and Isolde will be my next, and I may do another one of these threads so I can document my first time watching it.


Yes, very good choice!!


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## cheftimmyr (Oct 28, 2015)

JamieHoldham said:


> Aye, to get into Opera as my experience explains, you don't need to listen to a light Opera from Mozart or other lesser known composers. You just need patience more than anything, attention to detail and a general knowledge of the story.
> 
> As my desire for Opera has grown, Tristan and Isolde will be my next, and I may do another one of these threads so I can document my first time watching it.


Tristan should be a thrill for you. Here's some recs, FWIW (hopefully they'll be useful for you). I highly recommend the '52 Furtwangler release from Pristine for your first listen, its a little investment but totally worth it. Also, if you want to do some research, if you can find an old copy of "The First Hundred Years of Wagner's Tristan" by Zuckerman, it's a great source. Woodduck recommended a while ago and I'm actually rereading it currently.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

cheftimmyr said:


> Tristan should be a thrill for you. Here's some recs, FWIW (hopefully they'll be useful for you). I highly recommend the '52 Furtwangler release from Pristine for your first listen, its a little investment but totally worth it. Also, if you want to do some research, if you can find an old copy of "The First Hundred Years of Wagner's Tristan" by Zuckerman, it's a great source. Woodduck recommended a while ago and I'm actually rereading it currently.


The Zuckerman's about $100 on Amazon.co.uk. Aargh.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> The Zuckerman's about $100 on Amazon.co.uk. Aargh.


I hate to be reminded that I gave up my copy over forty years ago (who knows why) and would now have to pay that much to replace it. It's evidently out of print, and should be reissued at a reasonable price.


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## cheftimmyr (Oct 28, 2015)

Barbebleu said:


> The Zuckerman's about $100 on Amazon.co.uk. Aargh.


I found mine on Abebooks for about $28 dollars plus shipping... maybe other book resellers would have better deals than Amazon in this case


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

cheftimmyr said:


> I found mine on Abebooks for about $28 dollars plus shipping... maybe other book resellers would have better deals than Amazon in this case


Thanks. I'll keep looking.


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