# Major vs. Minor. Happy vs. Sad music.



## obwan (Oct 24, 2011)

I was just wondering if anyone could provide me with example of music that doesn't fit the typical 'mold' so to speak. My question in particular is if it is even possible (theoretically or otherwise) for a 'happy' song to be in a minor key or for a 'sad' song to be in a major key. 

I know minor doesn't = sad, it could also be angry or any other 'dark' emotion, but I can't think of one counterexample where a 'sad' song is in a major key, or a happy song is in a 'minor' key.

Please disregard modulations to resolutions etc etc etc or a section of a song that might be provided for contrast. Unless of course they are so beautiful that you are overwhelmed by the need to share them for the purposes of this discussion.


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## AmateurComposer (Sep 13, 2009)

obwan said:


> I was just wondering if anyone could provide me with example of music that doesn't fit the typical 'mold' so to speak. My question in particular is if it is even possible (theoretically or otherwise) for a 'happy' song to be in a minor key or for a 'sad' song to be in a major key.
> 
> I know minor doesn't = sad, it could also be angry or any other 'dark' emotion, but I can't think of one counterexample where a 'sad' song is in a major key, or a happy song is in a 'minor' key.
> 
> Please disregard modulations to resolutions etc etc etc or a section of a song that might be provided for contrast. Unless of course they are so beautiful that you are overwhelmed by the need to share them for the purposes of this discussion.


The theme song of the movie "_An Affair to Remember_" with Cary Grant and Deborah Kerr, while not exactly sad, is very emotional. When I first heard it I had the impression that it was in a minor key, but after I looked at it more closely I was surprised to realize that it actually is in a major key.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

Mozart Fantasia and fugue in C dur.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

The final movement of Mahler's 9th is in Db Major, but it sounds very sad to me.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Very sad:






For atonal music full of emotion, look no further than Schoenberg's Pierrot Lunaire.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

The _Lydian mode_, for example, although it has a "major flavour"; at least for me, it has a melancholic sound.


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## Philip (Mar 22, 2011)

http://www.talkclassical.com/17961-happy-minors-sad-majors.html


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

I have always thought Mozart's symphony no. 40 to be quite a happy, but dark, piece.


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## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

i reackon that would be called bittersweet


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## Hausmusik (May 13, 2012)

Mendelssohn's Italian symphony travels from Major to Minor (rare in a symphony) but sounds quite cheerful throughout. Schubert's last two sonatas for piano are in major keys and are very sad works.


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

obwan said:


> I was just wondering if anyone could provide me with example of music that doesn't fit the typical 'mold' so to speak. My question in particular is if it is even possible (theoretically or otherwise) for a 'happy' song to be in a minor key or for a 'sad' song to be in a major key. ...
> 
> Please disregard modulations to resolutions etc etc etc or a section of a song that might be provided for contrast. Unless of course they are so beautiful that you are overwhelmed by the need to share them for the purposes of this discussion.


Well this is predominantly in the minor, though the last line of each verse modulates (but we're instructed to ignore modulations!). However, the text is surely unambiguously positive and affirmative.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Beethoven's 1st Piano Sonata - I find quite happy sounding and its in a minor key.


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## AmateurComposer (Sep 13, 2009)

obwan said:


> I was just wondering if anyone could provide me with example of music that doesn't fit the typical 'mold' so to speak. My question in particular is if it is even possible (theoretically or otherwise) for a 'happy' song to be in a minor key or for a 'sad' song to be in a major key.
> 
> I know minor doesn't = sad, it could also be angry or any other 'dark' emotion, but I can't think of one counterexample where a 'sad' song is in a major key, or a happy song is in a 'minor' key.
> 
> Please disregard modulations to resolutions etc etc etc or a section of a song that might be provided for contrast. Unless of course they are so beautiful that you are overwhelmed by the need to share them for the purposes of this discussion.


Beethoven fifth symphony, far from being sad, opens in a powerful minor key!


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## EarthBoundRules (Sep 25, 2011)

The 2nd movement of Brahms' _Clarinet Quintet_ sounds incredibly sad to me despite being in a major key (although it does modulate to minor keys, but sounds depressing even when it's in B major).


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## obwan (Oct 24, 2011)

Oh sorry for not getting back in so long I had been distracted. 

But thank you all for so many great suggestions.

Beethoven's 5th however I'd say is certainly very angry, which I had already preempted....

On another forum I also received a couple of great responses. One was an irish folk tune singing about a spring festival, in a very minor key. It makes me wonder if there are many irish folk tunes that are similar and if the whole minor=sad, meloncholy, angry etc isn't only a cultural attitude.


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## sah (Feb 28, 2012)

IMO if you change the key from minor to major/major to minor, the piece would sound happier/sadder. But tempo and rhythm can be more important in creating a feeling of happiness or sadness. As an example, many folk dances are in a minor key and sound happy.


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## AmateurComposer (Sep 13, 2009)

obwan said:


> Beethoven's 5th however I'd say is certainly very angry, which I had already preempted....


Angry? How about that? I guess there is no limit to interpretation.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

A classic, and classical example is Handel's "L'Allegro, il Penseroso ed il Moderato."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Allegro,_il_Penseroso_ed_il_Moderato

Handel set texts of Milton, the 'up buoyant' text in minor, the 'sad pensive' one in major - each still reflecting the desired mood. Probably set out to do it that way as a personal whim, and to disprove what had already become a sad in place cliche.

Minor Does Not Equal SAD: Major Does Not Equal HAPPY.


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## willimek (Mar 31, 2013)

Why do Minor Keys sound sad?
If you want to answer this question, there is the problem, that some minor chords don't sound sad. The solution is the Theory of Musical Equilibration. It says, that music is not able to transmit emotions directly. Music can just convey processes of will, but the music listener fills this processes of will with emotions. Similar, when you watch a dramatic movie in television, the movie cannot transmit emotions directly, but processes of will. The spectator perceives the processes of will dyed with emotions - identifying with the protagonist. When you listen music you identify too, but with an anonymous will now.
If you perceive a major chord, you normally identify with the will "Yes, I want to...". If you perceive a minor chord, you identify normally with the will "I don't want any more...". If you play the minor chord softly, you connect the will "I don't want any more..." with a feeling of sadness. If you play the minor chord loudly, you connect the same will with a feeling of rage. You distinguish in the same way as you would distinguish, if someone would say the words "I don't want anymore..." the first time softly and the second time loudly. 
This operations of will in the music were unknown until the Strebetendenz-Theory discovered them. And therefore many previous researches in psychology of music failed. If you want more information about music and emotions and get the answer, why music touches us emotionally, you can download the essay "Vibrating Molecules and the Secret of their Feelings" for free. You can get it on the link:
http://www.willimekmusic.homepage.t-online.de/music-and-emotions.pdf
Enjoy reading
Bernd Willimek


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

The major-key slow movement to Mozart's Clarinet Concerto strikes me as quite nostalgic and sad.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

AmateurComposer said:


> Angry? How about that? I guess there is no limit to interpretation.


Which is why I was wondering why nobody brought up the effect a performance can have on a reception of a piece. A piece can be made much sadder or happier depending on the interpretation.


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

And some music can be both happy and sad at the same time. I don't necessarily see them as non-inclusive.


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## mstar (Aug 14, 2013)

There are many works in major keys that are much "sadder" than "happy" ones in major keys. No biconditional statement for this one exists.


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

aleazk said:


> The _Lydian mode_, for example, although it has a "major flavour"; at least for me, it has a melancholic sound.


Lydian tends to sound heroic and fairy tale like.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Piwikiwi said:


> Lydian tends to sound heroic and fairy tale like.


Interesting, do you have any musical examples of this?

The raised 4th in Lydian creates a tritone with the root, I think this is what causes it to sound somewhat melancholy or dark, yet all the other notes are the same as the major scale. It is an interesting mode, kind of light and dark.


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## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

To me, it is much easier to find melancholy/sad music in major than it is to find joyous music in minor. Minor just has a way of sounding dark and foreboding no matter what. Although it depends on if the piece has a nice mix between the two; that's how you end up with the bittersweet sentimental pieces. I doubt anyone could find a piece like Respighi's Bergamasca and say it was "sad" 

But here's an example of a piece in G minor that is supposed to be joyous:

Tchaikovsky - Sleeping Beauty (No. 30b - Apotheosis)

What do you think? Pure celebration or something darker running underneath it?


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

tdc said:


> Interesting, do you have any musical examples of this?
> 
> The raised 4th in Lydian creates a tritone with the root, I think this is what causes it to sound somewhat melancholy or dark, yet all the other notes are the same as the major scale. It is an interesting mode, kind of light and dark.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

^ @ Piwikiwi, although I'm still not convinced one can make broad generalizations like "Lydian tends to sound heroic and fairy tale like" based on that one short clip, however it _is_ a good example of what you were referring to, thanks.


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

tdc said:


> ^ @ Piwikiwi, although I'm still not convinced one can make broad generalizations like "Lydian tends to sound heroic and fairy tale like" based on that one short clip, however it _is_ a good example of what you were referring to, thanks.


Modes go from "light" to "dark" in this order lydan, ionian, mixolydian, dorian, aeolian, phrygian, locrian and the jazz mode super locrian. It's quite subjective but lydian just tend to sound the brightest.


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## willimek (Mar 31, 2013)

*Why do Minor Chords Sound Sad?*

The _Theory of Musical Equilibration_ states that in contrast to previous hypotheses, music does not directly describe emotions: instead, it evokes processes of will which the listener identifies with.

A major chord is something we generally identify with the message, "I want to!" The experience of listening to a minor chord can be compared to the message conveyed when someone says, "No more." If someone were to say the words "no more" slowly and quietly, they would create the impression of being sad, whereas if they were to scream it quickly and loudly, they would be come across as furious. This distinction also applies for the emotional character of a minor chord: if a minor harmony is repeated faster and at greater volume, its sad nature appears to have suddenly turned into fury.

The Theory of Musical Equilibration applies this principle as it constructs a system which outlines and explains the emotional nature of musical harmonies. For more information you can google _Theory of Musical Equilibration_.

Bernd Willimek
willimek
Forum Neophyte

Posts: 3
Joined: 31 Mar 2013


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## Whistler Fred (Feb 6, 2014)

Tristan said:


> To me, it is much easier to find melancholy/sad music in major than it is to find joyous music in minor. Minor just has a way of sounding dark and foreboding no matter what. Although it depends on if the piece has a nice mix between the two; that's how you end up with the bittersweet sentimental pieces. I doubt anyone could find a piece like Respighi's Bergamasca and say it was "sad"
> 
> But here's an example of a piece in G minor that is supposed to be joyous:
> 
> ...


I always found that ending to be unsettling. I tend to visualize a final scene where the Evil Queen is glaring down at the merriment before her and vowing to avenge herself. I doubt that's what Tchaikovsky had in mind...


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## Whistler Fred (Feb 6, 2014)

There may be a acoustical reason why minor keys (and some of the other modes) sound darker than others. The overtone series first rises from the fundamental tone in 5th and octaves, but will reach a major third at the 5th harmonic overtone. By flattening this tone, a note is introduced that is "out of synch" with the first four harmonic overtones, creating a mild dissonance. So we hear it as slightly unsettling and a bit darker. 

As for musical examples, I think of the Badinerie from Bach's Suite in B minor as predominantly cheerful, while the previously mentioned finale from Mahler's 9th Symphony is drenched with sorrow, although leavened with a degree of resignation.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

obwan said:


> I was just wondering if anyone could provide me with example of music that doesn't fit the typical 'mold' so to speak. My question in particular is if it is even possible (theoretically or otherwise) for a 'happy' song to be in a minor key or for a 'sad' song to be in a major key.
> 
> I know minor doesn't = sad, it could also be angry or any other 'dark' emotion, but I can't think of one counterexample where a 'sad' song is in a major key, or a happy song is in a 'minor' key.
> 
> Please disregard modulations to resolutions etc etc etc or a section of a song that might be provided for contrast. Unless of course they are so beautiful that you are overwhelmed by the need to share them for the purposes of this discussion.


Here's a familiar example: When Johnny Comes Marching Home has always seemed paradoxical to me, since it is ostensibly about the triumph of victory and the return home of soldiers from the horrors of the Civil War, yet it is in a minor key.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=When_Johnny_Comes_Marching_Home&oldid=603792639

* When Johnny Comes Marching Home Again *

When Johnny comes marching home again,
Hurrah! Hurrah!
We'll give him a hearty welcome then
Hurrah! Hurrah!
The men will cheer and the boys will shout
The ladies they will all turn out
And we'll all feel gay when Johnny comes marching home.
The old church bell will peal with joy
Hurrah! Hurrah!
To welcome home our darling boy,
Hurrah! Hurrah!
The village lads and lassies say
With roses they will strew the way,
And we'll all feel gay when Johnny comes marching home.
Get ready for the Jubilee,
Hurrah! Hurrah!
We'll give the hero three times three,
Hurrah! Hurrah!
The laurel wreath is ready now
To place upon his loyal brow
And we'll all feel gay when Johnny comes marching home.
Let love and friendship on that day,
Hurrah, hurrah!
Their choicest pleasures then display,
Hurrah, hurrah!
And let each one perform some part,
To fill with joy the warrior's heart,
And we'll all feel gay when Johnny comes marching home

I find this to be very effective, and II respect this song greatly. I noted its use in the "Diehard" Bruce Willis series of movies.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> * When Johnny Comes Marching Home Again *
> 
> When Johnny comes marching home again,
> Hurrah! Hurrah!


The version I'm most familiar with has, "Ye haven't an arm, ye haven't a leg, Ye'll have to be put with a bowl to beg."

Which not only takes the fun out of it but raises the question: How could Johnny come "marching home" in the first place?


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Jewish chant is often in a minor key, yet these are religious songs of praise...lotsa folk tunes are in minor keys, but don't necessarily have 'sad' connotations, unless you want to think that life was a lot harder back then.

The minor third, which gives the minor chord its distinctive sonority, is not a prevalent overtone, eclipsed by the earlier appearance of the major third, so it is 'less natural'...when stacked or 'projected,' the minor third produces diminished sevenths, which contain the tritone and are 'recursive,' meaning that they repeat within the octave. This gives a feeling of 'closing in' or of retreating within.

The major third is recursive as well, but when similarly stacked, its augmented fifth seems to imply 'expansion' or openness. This 'vertigo' of expansion can be heard in Holst's _The Planets._


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

The final minute or so of Prokofiev's Violin Sonata No. 1 in F minor is among the most depressing lamentations I know, despite being in F major.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

Music's affect on one's emotions (this one anyway) depends to a large extent on context.
I think statistically speaking, there is no doubt that minor key passages bring out the darker feelings but there are so many exceptions as to make it a very simplistic 'rule of thumb'.
Tempo and dynamics also play a huge role.
Think of 'Taps', that military bugal piece played on sombre occasions. It is just a major chord arpeggiated but played slowly and quietly is very solemn. Play it loud and fast and it's party time.


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## willimek (Mar 31, 2013)

*Why do Minor Choirds Sound Sad?*

The _*Theory of Musical Equilibration*_ states that in contrast to previous hypotheses, music does not directly describe emotions: instead, it evokes processes of will which the listener identifies with.
A major chord is something we generally identify with the message, "I want to!" The experience of listening to a minor chord can be compared to the message conveyed when someone says, "No more." `

If someone were to say the words "no more" slowly and quietly, they would create the impression of being sad, whereas if they were to scream it quickly and loudly, they would be come across as furious. This distinction also applies for the emotional character of a minor chord: if a minor harmony is repeated faster and at greater volume, its sad nature appears to have suddenly turned into fury.

The _Theory of Musical Equilibration_ applies this principle as it constructs a system which outlines and explains the emotional nature of musical harmonies. For more information you can google Theory of Musical Equilibration.

Bernd Willimek


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## Dhyana (Jun 29, 2021)

It seems clear to me that When Johnny Comes Marching Home is actually a funeral dirge, based on the music itself, belying the hopeful lyrics. But I can find no acknowledgment of this.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

There are quite a few quirky scherzando pieces in the minor that are not sad. The Bach badinerie from the b minor ouverture has been mentioned, there are of course several more in Bach suites, e.g. most of the a minor keyboard partita. I recall that in high school we had a debate why several chorales or arias with joyous text in the Xmas oratorio were in the minor (E.g. Bereite dich, Zion; Frohe Hirten, eilt, ach eilet). Most of the arias in that oratorio are parodies, though. Another one I find beautiful and rather neutral despite the minor is Qui sedes ad dextram patris from the b minor mass.
Or "exotic" pieces like the famous Habanera and later the gypsy? Danse in Carmen. Haydn has a popular tune with variations in his symphony #63 La Roxelane.

But sad pieces in the major seem far more frequent.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Sad music in major keys


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

The Mahler Symphony 6 is in A minor but if you listen to Abbado's last recording he makes it sound triumphant, not the downfall of man.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

In "Messiah" the passage "Like by man came death, by man came also the resurrection etc." first goes from minor to major in the "obvious" way, but the conclusion (sped up tempo "even so in Christ shall all be made alive") is interestingly in the minor again.
("The first created beam" in Samson also has the minor -> major movement, basically a miniature version of the passage from Haydn's Creation.)

In Bach's rather severe chorale cantata BWV 4 "Christ lag in Todesbanden", even the "happy" Easter/resurrection verses remain in the minor as they all stick to the chorale melody "per omnes versos" and there are probably similar examples.


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