# Help me decide whether to 'give up' on Wagner, R. Strauss, Bruckner based on EMI HvK



## StephenTC (Apr 24, 2014)

Help me decide whether to 'give up' on Wagner, R. Strauss, Bruckner

My experience with these composers is all from the EMI Karajan 'Great' recordings set.

I have given the pieces listed below a good listen and based on that, on the whole, they are "just not my cup of tea" and I have little inclination to explore these composers further.

Are you someone who loves these composers and selections?

If so, it is evidence that, due to our individual differences, I just won't ever 'get it' with these guys.

Or are these selections not a good representation of how good these composers can be?

*EMI 8 CD SET: Herbert Von Karajan: The Great Recordings, Wagner, R. Strauss, Bruckner*

Overture from Der Fliegende Holländer
Parsifal: Prelude, Act 1
Parsifal: Prelude, Act 3
Metamorphosen, AV 142 *Strauss*
Symphony No. 7 in E Major : *Bruckner*
Don Quixote: Fantastic Variations, Op. 35: *Strauss*
Overture and Venusberg Music from Tannhäuser (Paris Version)
Die Meistersinger Von Nürnberg: Overture
Symphonia Domestica, Op. 53: *Strauss*
Prelude and Liebestod (Concert Version: Arr. Humperdinck) from Tristan Und Isolde
Prelude to Act I from Lohengrin
Prelude to Act 3 from Lohengrin









ps: I quite like the Sibelius, Ravel, LvB and Brahms in this EMI set.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

I think that is an odd set to start with, considering that the vast majority of it is Wagner preludes and overtures... nice orchestral music though it is. Bruckner took me a while, so don't give up. I like Strauss' Metamorphosen a lot, but am quite cool on the Symphonia domestica.

I'd say, don't give up on them. Leave the opera (Wagner) for a while, unless you are especially interested in Wagner/opera. Listen to some other Bruckner, other Strauss, other composers from their eras, and soak up the feeling of their time and, then, come back to these in a few months or a year.

Have the music on for a while, a few days or so, while you are sitting around the house, soak up the feeling, and, once you start to feel that it is becoming familiar, set aside some time and listen attentively, while not doing anything else. It often takes me a few days, could be 4-6 times with the music on, before I start to feel comfortable with it.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

"Giving up" on Wagner having never heard one of his works in full seems a little strange, but I suppose five hours of music drama is not to everyone's taste (the poor souls). Aside from that, there are only three Strauss and one Bruckner in there, and _Symphonia Domestica_ is Strauss' _Wellington's Victory_.

In conclusion: I dunno, do what you want. I wouldn't beat yourself over the head with those recordings, but playing a YouTube video of one of those guys from time to time probably wouldn't do any harm


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

StephenTC said:


> Help me decide whether to 'give up' on Wagner, R. Strauss, Bruckner
> 
> My experience with these composers is all from the EMI Karajan 'Great' recordings set.
> 
> ...


Yes Ravel, Beethoven Sibelius and Brahms are very different from Wagner, Strauss and Bruckner, who all have something on common. So I can see where you're comming from.

The performances are fine.

Am I right in thinking you're not interested in exploring vocal music?

If so, the Bruckner and Strauss selection are good representations of their instrumental work. I'd say forget these composers for a while and then revisit. Wagner is, of course, an opera composer really, so not really for someone who doesn't want to explore voice and drama.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

as others have said, you get a limited view of these composers from the very limited selection of works presented - I personally avoid 'highlights' discs of short pieces nowadays.

Leave them alone for the time being but don't close your mind to these composers - you might come to appreciate them as you develop your listening ... and then you might even come to like them later on.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

First of all, it's vital to remember that nobody's obliged to like anything. Just because a lot of other people like Wagner, Strauss and Bruckner doesn't mean you ever will. That said, you might get to like them... but not necessarily any time soon. So if you feel you've given those composers a chance, just walk away. Many years from now you might suddenly discover you like this kind of music. Or not!


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## Guest (Jan 14, 2015)

ahammel said:


> _Symphonia Domestica_ is Strauss' _Wellington's Victory_.


How dare you traduce _Wellington's Victory_ in this way?:lol:


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

some guy said:


> How dare you traduce _Wellington's Victory_ in this way?:lol:


Look at it this way. Wellington's Victory finally has the solace of a bit of companionship.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Those composers are not among my favorites. Nevertheless, I don't think those selections give an adequate taste of Strauss (especially) or Bruckner. In fact, if I wanted to turn a potential listener away from Strauss, those are exactly the works I would have chosen. I would try Elektra and a couple of the symphonic poems. And at least one other Bruckner symphony — his many fans on this forum can help you with that, since I pretty much loathe them all.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

I had a friend who would constantly blast out the music of these very composers, none of whom I had heard before, and it was deep, abiding aversion at the first hearing- although there are recordings of Wagner arias I like very much- usually old, in the 'wrong' language and in styles probably regarded as heretical.

In conclusion: you are either a lover of orchestral German bombast or you are not. I can't help thinking highly of anyone who isn't, especially as they are an endangered minority here!


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## Guest (Jan 14, 2015)

I would never, ever give up on any composer after having only listened to a few pieces all conducted by the same person. That being said, Karajan is a fine conductor. His ENTIRE recording of Wagner's Meistersinger is my favorite for that work.

For Bruckner, I recommend the recording that hooked me - Gunter Wand's recording of the 4th symphony on RCA.

For Strauss, there are other works that I would recommend - Fritz Reiner's recording of Also Sprach Zarathustra and Ein Heldenleben on RCA, Marek Janowski's recording the the Alpine Symphony on Pentatone, and Karajan's recording of the 4 Last Songs (Vier Letzte Lieder) with Gundula Janowitz on DG.

For Wagner, at least go with the recordings that get high praise - for the Ring cycle, there are many excellent choices, but maybe go with the safest one, Solti on Decca. I have the Barenboim Ring cycle, and enjoy that as well.

Wagner took me a couple of tries to appreciate, but it finally took. That is mostly due to the fact that I am not the biggest opera fan, and that is almost exclusively what we have from Wagner. If you like opera, then there are others who can recommend some fine operas by R. Strauss - several of his are held in high regard, including Der Rosenkavalier, Die Frau ohne Schatten, Elektra, and Salome.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> I had a friend who would constantly blast out the music of these very composers, none of whom I had heard before, and it was deep, abiding aversion at the first hearing- although there are recordings of Wagner arias I like very much- usually old, in the 'wrong' language and in styles probably regarded as heretical.
> 
> In conclusion: you are either a lover of orchestral German bombast or you are not. I can't help thinking highly of anyone who isn't, especially as they are an endangered minority here!


When I see such utterly dissimilar works as Strauss's _Sinfonia Domestica_, Wagner's prelude to _Lohengrin_, and Bruckner's _Symphony #7_ lumped together under an undefined category called "German orchestal bombast," which category we are all supposed to love or not, I feel as if I'm being asked to re-evaluate the entire course and purpose of my life on earth.

This is most unsettling. Perhaps it's time for me to give up music, shave my head, and contemplate the sound of one hand clapping.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> When I see such utterly dissimilar works as Strauss's _Sinfonia Domestica_, Wagner's prelude to _Lohengrin_, and Bruckner's _Symphony #7_ lumped together under an undefined category called "German orchestal bombast," which category we are all supposed to love or not, I feel as if I'm being asked to re-evaluate the entire course and purpose of my life on earth.
> 
> This is most unsettling. Perhaps it's time for me to give up music, shave my head, and contemplate the sound of one hand clapping.


Well thank you for making me laugh anyway. I needed that!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> Well thank you for making me laugh anyway. I needed that!


You're welcome. (I've decided not to shave my head. Nature is gradually taking care of that without my help.)


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> When I see such utterly dissimilar works as Strauss's _Sinfonia Domestica_, Wagner's prelude to _Lohengrin_, and Bruckner's _Symphony #7_ lumped together under an undefined category called "German orchestal bombast," which category we are all supposed to love or not, I feel as if I'm being asked to re-evaluate the entire course and purpose of my life on earth.
> 
> This is most unsettling. Perhaps it's time for me to give up music, shave my head, and contemplate the sound of one hand clapping.


Don't worry Archangel Woodduck, you're TC's resident Moses when it comes to all things orchestrally German.

Don't smash those Posting Tablets just yet.


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## Oscarf (Dec 13, 2014)

I cannot comment much on the Wagner, but I really love Bruckner and Strauss and I have to say the selection is small and in the case of Strauss not good. The Bruckner 7th is a good starting point for Bruckner, maybe try another version like Wand or Jochum and try also symphonies 4th and 9th. For several different flavours of Strauss try some of the tone poems Zaratustra, Don Juan, Till Eulenspiegel or Ein Heldenleben, songs such as the 4 last songs and maybe Der Rosenkavalier and Elektra for two very different operas. i recommend the Kempe/Dresden Staatskapelle for the orchestral works and the Schwarzkopf/Szell for the songs.


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## Skilmarilion (Apr 6, 2013)

The fact that you have heard next to nothing of these composers and are contemplating 'giving up', strikes me as most strange. In particular it seems that you've heard one work by Bruckner and now 'don't feel inclined to investigate further'.

There probably aren't that many wrong ways to attempt to discover music, but this may be one of them. By my reckoning, you should listen to maybe 50% of these guys' output (and this includes revisiting works and building familiarity with the pieces you've already heard), before you contemplate sort of 'decision' -- of course, there's no such thing as giving up, more like 'putting aside', since it may well be that you don't enjoy something now, but may very well do in a year -- or five years or whenever ...

Either way I'm not sure this thread even needed to be made because, lets face it, nobody was going to tell you "yes".


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

DrMike said:


> Karajan's recording of the 4 Last Songs (Vier Letzte Lieder) with Gundula Janowitz on DG.


I don't listen to Strauss all that often, but I can't imagine having to do without that recording.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Nereffid said:


> First of all, it's vital to remember that nobody's obliged to like anything. Just because a lot of other people like Wagner, Strauss and Bruckner doesn't mean you ever will. That said, you might get to like them... but not necessarily any time soon. So if you feel you've given those composers a chance, just walk away. Many years from now you might suddenly discover you like this kind of music. Or not!


That's such a healthy attitude! Seriously. However, May I suggest these as "gateways" into these composers:


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

I'd give these polo ponies a chukker:









For Karajan's EMI/BPO Sibelius _Fourth _and _ Sixth_.









For Karajan's 60's DG_ Tapiola_ and _Fourth_.










And, for the _pièce de résistance_: the _divine_ 1960 Karajan/Philharmonia Sibelius _Fifth_-- one of the most magnificent pieces of Sibelius interpretation I've ever heard.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

DrMike said:


> Karajan's recording of the 4 Last Songs (Vier Letzte Lieder) with Gundula Janowitz on DG.


This would definitely be a keeper. Alas, I bought the Lucia Popp 4 Last Songs, but that one is probably as good as the Janowitz performance, no?

As for Wagner, I have Meistersinger on DVD and CD and don't plan on getting any other Wagner stuff. Meistersinger will not be a frequent item for me, but it is a good one.

I have no Bruckner, oh, think I listened to a Bruckner symphony the other week and it was okay, but with Beethoven and Mendelssohn symphonies, I have no time for other lesser symphonies.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

Yeah - I think it's a reasonably unrepresentative set. My tip would be do a bit of reading on the major works of each composer in an introduction to listening to classics sort of book (this need only take half an hour or so), pick a couple that sound appealing to you and give them a couple of listens and see where you are at. Or just leave all those guys for another time when you feel like exploring!

As an aside, the Sinfonia Domestica dismissal is beyond me - I utterly love it. One of those things in life I guess. If any of the big tone poems stand out to me as being of lesser quality and appeal it's Alpine - and yet it seems so revered!?!


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Figleaf said:


> I had a friend who would constantly blast out the music of these very composers, none of whom I had heard before, and it was deep, abiding aversion at the first hearing- although there are recordings of Wagner arias I like very much- usually old, in the 'wrong' language and in styles probably regarded as heretical.
> 
> *In conclusion: you are either a lover of orchestral German bombast or you are not. I can't help thinking highly of anyone who isn't, especially as they are an endangered minority here*!


As long as you do not think too lowly of those who are! :tiphat:


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

SiegendesLicht said:


> As long as you do not think too lowly of those who are! :tiphat:


Not at all- and they are gradually winning me over!


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Figleaf said:


> Not at all- and they are gradually winning me over!


I think there are more moments of subtle beauty and quiet times than people think.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Perhaps you are allergic to HvK's Wagner, Strauss & Bruckner in which case I'd suggest an antidote, i.e. Otto Klemperer's versions of same. His style is almost the antithesis of Karajan.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Itullian said:


> I think there are more moments of subtle beauty and quiet times than people think.


Absolutely! But I love the bombast as well.

I've found I like the timbre of brass instruments a lot - whether flowing like the waters of the Rhine, or thundering like those in Bruckner's symphonies. Somehow associated with this timbre in my mind is the sound of the German language (probably because of listening to a lot of music where both come together) - a bit rough at times, but also soft, warm and sweet. Music that combines both of them is perfection itself.


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## Marsilius (Jun 13, 2015)

Thank goodness that dgee, for one, had something positive to say about the Symphonia Domestica. There are, it's true, many recordings of it that are not very engaging, but the recording by George Szell and the Cleveland Orchestra is a revelation.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Absolutely! But I love the bombast as well.
> 
> I've found I like the timbre of brass instruments a lot - whether flowing like the waters of the Rhine, or thundering like those in Bruckner's symphonies. Somehow associated with this timbre in my mind is the sound of the German language (probably because of listening to a lot of music where both come together) - a bit rough at times, but also soft, warm and sweet. Music that combines both of them is perfection itself.


The Solti Ring is awesome for the brass. WPO


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

A friend of mine reckons that Wagner is the 'heavy metal of classical music' which is probably about right. I find I have favourite bits of Wagner like the last act of Siegfried; the first two acts are almost entirely 'male argy-bargy' as one reviewer put it where Wagner seems to have run out of steam a bit. But the third act (once you get past the comic 'this is no man') is really inspired stuff, especially with Karajan and Denersch. Try the immolation scene at the end of Gotterdamerung with the same combination of singer/conductor and it will give you a taste of what Wagner at his best and most approachable is really like.
With Bruckner you should be fine with the seventh symphony but if you don't like that maybe you should give dear old Anton a miss for a bit. Karajan's EMI is the most beautiful version of that symphony, wonderful and humane.
Strauss is one composer I don't really get into. Some of his tone poems seem to meander on forever. Don Quixote is perhaps the most interesting of them but make sure you have a programme of what is going on. The four last songs are ravishing - perhaps the best thing Strauss ever wrote.
But if you object to your ears being subject to general assault then I suggest you try Mozart. That is a sure winner!


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

DavidA said:


> A friend of mine reckons that Wagner is the 'heavy metal of classical music' which is probably about right. I find I have favourite bits of Wagner like the last act of Siegfried;* the first two acts are almost entirely 'male argy-bargy' as one reviewer put it *where Wagner seems to have run out of steam a bit. But the third act (once you get past the comic 'this is no man') is really inspired stuff, especially with Karajan and Denersch. Try the immolation scene at the end of Gotterdamerung with the same combination of singer/conductor and it will give you a taste of what Wagner at his best and most approachable is really like.
> With Bruckner you should be fine with the seventh symphony but if you don't like that maybe you should give dear old Anton a miss for a bit. Karajan's EMI is the most beautiful version of that symphony, wonderful and humane.
> Strauss is one composer I don't really get into. Some of his tone poems seem to meander on forever. Don Quixote is perhaps the most interesting of them but make sure you have a programme of what is going on. The four last songs are ravishing - perhaps the best thing Strauss ever wrote.
> But if you object to your ears being subject to general assault then I suggest you try Mozart. That is a sure winner!


They're absolute genius my friend, the play between Siegfried and Mime is genius.
And the forging scene AND the dragon AND the woodbird which I LOVE.
Sorry you don't appreciate his genius.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Itullian said:


> They're absolute genius my friend, the play between Siegfried and Mime is genius.
> And the forging scene AND the dragon AND the woodbird which I LOVE.
> Sorry you don't appreciate his genius.


I don't appreciate the squarking Mime and the wobbly Wanderer in Solti's version! Sutherland's wood bird comes as a bit of a relief though it is doubtful whether Siegfried would have been able to make out what she said! The first two acts drag by a bit; Wagner should have employed an editor!


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

DavidA said:


> I don't appreciate the squarking Mime and the wobbly Wanderer in Solti's version! Sutherland's wood bird comes as a bit of a relief though it is doubtful whether Siegfried would have been able to make out what she said! The first two acts drag by a bit; Wagner should have employed an editor!


Well I do. And I think the length is wonderful.
It's one of the things I love about Wagner.
And Bruckner too


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Itullian said:


> Well I do. And I think the length is wonderful.
> It's one of the things I love about Wagner.
> And Bruckner too


And Mahler, the Jewish maestro (do you hear, DavidA?  )


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> And Mahler, the Jewish maestro (do you hear, DavidA?  )


Yes, Mahler believed there were anti-semitic elements in the operas but conducted them anyway. Anti-Semitism was a constant in his life and career in fin-de-siècle Vienna.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

DavidA said:


> *A friend of mine reckons that Wagner is the 'heavy metal of classical music' which is probably about right.* I find I have favourite bits of Wagner like the last act of Siegfried; the first two acts are almost entirely 'male argy-bargy' as one reviewer put it where Wagner seems to have run out of steam a bit. But the third act (once you get past the comic 'this is no man') is really inspired stuff, especially with Karajan and Denersch. Try the immolation scene at the end of Gotterdamerung with the same combination of singer/conductor and it will give you a taste of what Wagner at his best and most approachable is really like.
> With Bruckner you should be fine with the seventh symphony but if you don't like that maybe you should give dear old Anton a miss for a bit. Karajan's EMI is the most beautiful version of that symphony, wonderful and humane.
> Strauss is one composer I don't really get into. Some of his tone poems seem to meander on forever. Don Quixote is perhaps the most interesting of them but make sure you have a programme of what is going on. The four last songs are ravishing - perhaps the best thing Strauss ever wrote.
> But if you object to your ears being subject to general assault then I suggest you try Mozart. That is a sure winner!





















A professor friend of mine who is kind of a stilted academic type was once telling me about George London's fantastic "_Die Friest ist um_" from the begining of _Die Fliegende Hollander._

I told him only half-kiddingly that Metallica's "Fight Fire With Fire" is a logical extension of Wagner's Valhallan excesses.

He actually _bought _the cd (this was when I worked at Tower Records years ago), apparently listened to it- and then came back a week later and said, "You're right."

I died laughing.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

DavidA said:


> Yes, Mahler acknowledged what he believed were the anti-semitic elements in the operas but conducted them anyway.


No, I am talking about the glorious length (and bombast!) of Mahler's own symphonies.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Yes, Mahler acknowledged what he believed were the anti-semitic elements in the operas but conducted them anyway.


I of course believe that Mahler is mistaken- but I listen to his music anyway.

Marschallins are gracious like that.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Marschallin Blair said:


> A professor friend of mine who is kind of a stilted academic type was once telling me about George London's fantastic "_Die Frist ist um_" from the begining of _Der Fliegende Hollander._
> 
> I told him only half-kiddingly that Metallica's "Fight Fire With Fire" is a logical extension of Wagner's Valhallan excesses.
> 
> ...


Here is some Valhallan metal for you 






For none but the brave
Shall rise above the grave
To see the Valkyries fly...


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> No, I am talking about the glorious length (and bombast!) of Mahler's own symphonies.


I listen to them as well when I'm in the mood.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

UH UH


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Here is some Valhallan metal for you
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks, Valkyrie SiegendesLicht.

I like the lyrics but truth to tell I was never a Manowar fan.

I do, however, think that Amon Amarth are Wagner's long-lost great-great grandsons.

Norse battle mythology at its best. _;D_






_"Tattered Banners And Bloody Flags"

There comes Lopt, the treacherous
Lusting for revenge
He leads the legions of the dead
Towards the Aesir's realm

They march in full battle dress
With faces grim and pale
Tattered banners and bloody flags
Rusty spears and blades

Cries ring out, loud and harsh
From cracked and broken horns
Long forgotten battle cries
In strange and foreign tongues

Spear and sword clash rhythmically
Against the broken shields they beat
They bring their hate and anarchy
Onto Vigrid's battlefield

There comes Lopt, the treacherous
He stands against the gods
His army grim and ravenous
Lusting for their blood

Nowhere is longer safe
The earth moves under our feet
The great world tree Yggorasil
Trembles to its roots

Sons of muspel gird the field
Behind them Midgaard burns
Hrym's horde march from Nifelheim
And the Fenris wolf returns

Heimdal grips the Giallarhorn
He sounds that dreaded note
Oden rides to quest the Norns
But their web is torn
The Aesir rides out to war
With armor shining bright
Followed by the Einherjer
See valkyries ride

Nowhere is longer safe
The earth moves under our feet
The great world tree Yggorasil
Trembles to its roots

Sons of muspel gird the field
Behind them Midgaard burns
Hrym's horde march from Nifelheim
And the Fenris wolf returns _
_

Real Metal Men always seem to be Swedes, Finns, Norsemen, or Germans in my experience.

Kreator? Amon Amarth? Immortal?- Viking berzerkers, Baby!

*"There comes Lopt, the treacherous
He stands against the gods"*_- oh yeah!!


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

If I'm to be honest, I don't think Karajan is a particularly good yardstick for anything. His conducting has always struck me as terribly middle of the road, safe, never particularly intense or distinguished.

In Bruckner, I am a fan of Celibidache who, while bringing the symphonies out to an unprecedented length, maintains the structural balance so well that they do become something greater than more ordinary recordings might have you believe. I certainly wouldn't dimiss ol' Anton before hearing Celibidache helm the 5th, 7th, and 8th symphonies.

For Wagner, the Kubelík _Meistersinger_ is my preferred opera and recording. I can't claim to be a huge Wagner fan in general, I went through a short-ish period of infatuation followed generally by disinterest, but _Meistersinger_ remains a favourite.

For Strauss, I have a few preferred recordings. Reiner's '58 _Zarathustra_, Böhm's '74 _Salome_ with Teresa Stratas (a film), Masur's '83 _Vier Letzte Lieder_ with Jessye Norman, and Klemperer's c. '67 _Metamorphosen_ (available in a remastered 2CD set with Mahler 9 and the _Siegfried Idyll_). Aside from those, Strauss tends to be either too much or too little for my ears; a startlingly inconsistent composer, but at his best he could go toe to toe with the finest of his contemporaries.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Crudblud said:


> If I'm to be honest, I don't think Karajan is a particularly good yardstick for anything. His conducting has always struck me as terribly middle of the road, safe, never particularly intense or distinguished.
> 
> In Bruckner, I am a fan of *Celibidache *who, while bringing the symphonies out to an unprecedented length, maintains the structural balance so well that they do become something greater than more ordinary recordings might have you believe. I certainly wouldn't dimiss ol' Anton before hearing Celibidache helm the 5th, 7th, and 8th symphonies.
> 
> ...


For me listening to Celi conduct encourages an attack of somnolence.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

DavidA said:


> A friend of mine reckons that Wagner is the 'heavy metal of classical music' which is probably about right.


 As a teen, I was much into hard rock and when I delved into classical I picked up an LP of Wagner overtures and loved it because it was hard driving, but now I am not so interested in hard rock or Wagner (except Meistersinger).


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Funny, 
My boss had seen Apocalypse Now and because of the famous Walkure seen thought Wagner was aggressive and loud.
Well, his wife bought him a Wagner cd for his birthday and he told me how disappointed he was that there was no loud or aggressive music on it.

Parsifal prelude
Lohengrin prelude
Tristan prelude and liebestod
Meistersinger prelude
Forest murmurs
Parsifal Good Friday music.

This stuff about Wagner being all bombast is bunk!!!
He wrote the most beautiful music ever!!!

Now, when I bought my boss the Kleiber disc of Beethovens 5 and 7,
he said ,"ah, now this is more like it."
Ha!!!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Itullian said:


> Funny,
> My boss had seen Apocalypse Now and because of the famous Walkure seen thought Wagner was aggressive and loud.
> Well, his wife bought him a Wagner cd for his birthday and he told me how disappointed he was that there was no loud or aggressive music on it.
> 
> ...


No this stuff about Wagner being *only* bombast is bunk!


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

DavidA said:


> No this stuff about Wagner being *only* bombast is bunk!


That was to use your words.

He wrote the most beautiful music in the world.

Parsifal prelude
Lohengrin prelude
Tristan prelude and liebestod
Meistersinger prelude
Forest murmurs
Parsifal Good Friday music.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Itullian said:


> Funny,
> My boss had seen Apocalypse Now and because of the famous Walkure seen thought Wagner was aggressive and loud.
> Well, his wife bought him a Wagner cd for his birthday and he told me how disappointed he was that there was no loud or aggressive music on it.
> 
> ...


To be fair Wagner also wrote lots of good bombast too that at least I get a huge thrill from.
That CD most have something like Wagner Calm Moments.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Sloe said:


> To be fair Wagner also wrote lots of good bombast too that at least I get a huge thrill from.
> That CD most have something like Wagner Calm Moments.


There's no bombast my friend, just exciting passages.
And the best in all opera.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Itullian said:


> There's no bombast my friend, just exciting passages.
> And the best in all opera.


I did not mean it in the original meaning of the word.
And yes the best in all opera.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Sloe said:


> I did not mean it in the original meaning of the word.
> And yes the best in all opera.


I know. :tiphat:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Itullian said:


> That was to use your words.
> 
> .


Nope. I never used the word. You did though.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Itullian said:


> There's no bombast my friend, just exciting passages.
> And the best in all opera.


For the best in opera you have to go to Mozart.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

DavidA said:


> For the best in opera you have to go to Mozart.


True, but booooooooooooring recitatives.

What's more exciting or beautiful than the passages cited above?


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Stop arguing, my dear friends. Wagner is ultimately beautiful, whether his music comes across as bombast or no bombast.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Stop arguing, my dear friends. Wagner is ultimately beautiful, whether his music comes across as bombast or no bombast.


But he started it, ma. :lol:


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Stop arguing, my dear friends. Wagner is ultimately beautiful, whether his music comes across as bombast or no bombast.


I have no evidence for this, but I believe many Wagner fans are also recovered heavy metal addicts. It's as if a liking for the noisy stuff crosses musical genres. (Yes, I know know that Wagner is _much_ more than the stirring passages like Ride of the Valkyries- but he is popularly known for music of that character, and so attracts or repels listeners accordingly.)


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Itullian said:


> True, but booooooooooooring recitatives.
> 
> What's more exciting or beautiful than the passages cited above?


Not when Mozart wrote them! But there are dulll passages of narration in Wagner where you just wish he'd get on with it!

Most of Mozart to me. But then we are dealing with a matter of personal preferences which are subjective.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Stop arguing, my dear friends. Wagner is ultimately beautiful, whether his music comes across as bombast or no bombast.


Not at all. When Hagen summons the Vassels the music is not beautiful - it is wild and barbaric. Wagner wrote it that way intentionally!


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Speaking for myself, I never liked metal. I was a prog rock/classic rock guy.
And when I first heard Wagner I thought he was boring.
But something kept pulling me back.

I bought the Karajan Ring and while it had good parts I kept thinking, where are the big voices I've been reading about.
Then I bought the Solti. Oh, there they are.
And I was off...................


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> I have no evidence for this, but I believe many Wagner fans are also recovered heavy metal addicts. It's as if a liking for the noisy stuff crosses musical genres. (Yes, I know know that Wagner is _much_ more than the stirring passages like Ride of the Valkyries- but he is popularly known for music of that character, and so attracts or repels listeners accordingly.)


Respectfully, you really 'do not' have any evidence for this, Figleaf, other than hunch and intuition.

Woodduck's probably the most eminent Wagnerian I know of- and heavy metal, I suspect, would be positive 'anathema' to him.

I 'love' epic Wagner- but I love the B-52's, Abba, the Go Go's, and Jinkx Monsoon too. Not exactly the stuff of _hochdramatisch _Valhallan Valkyries.

So how does that fit into your Wagnerian conjecture?

I think people are much more multidimensional than we usually give them credit for.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Not at all. When Hagen summons the Vassels the music is not beautiful - it is wild and barbaric. Wagner wrote it that way intentionally!


I think its beautiful and awesome.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Not at all. When Hagen summons the Vassels the music is not beautiful - it is wild and barbaric. Wagner wrote it that way intentionally!


Agreed.

Wagner was first and foremost- like his literary analgoue Shakespeare- a 'dramatist'- which means that he canvassed and beautifully clarified the good, the bad, and the ugly.

Its Wagner's- and Shakespeare's- 'style'- that is so sublime and moving.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Figleaf said:


> I have no evidence for this, but I believe many Wagner fans are also recovered heavy metal addicts. It's as if a liking for the noisy stuff crosses musical genres. (Yes, I know know that Wagner is _much_ more than the stirring passages like Ride of the Valkyries- but he is popularly known for music of that character, and so attracts or repels listeners accordingly.)


That is certainly not true in my case, I dislike any rock music and the louder and more raucous it is, the more I dislike it. If that makes my style one-dimensional, so be it.

(FWIW, I also like Scottish bagpipes  )


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Yay


Itullian said:


> Speaking for myself, I never liked metal. I was a prog rock/classic rock guy.
> And when I first heard Wagner I thought he was boring.
> But something kept pulling me back.
> 
> ...


Well that is it you see. Karajan showed that Wagner's music does not all have to be big bellowing voices. With him even the big voices are kept under control. There is a subtlety and line to it you don't find in Solti's Ring, perhaps due to John Culshaw, who preferred overstatement to understatement. Of course, it is ultimately a matter of personal taste.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

Never give up.

There is a lot of great music I did not connect with until I was in my fifties. There is even some Wagner that I now like.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

arpeggio said:


> Never give up.
> 
> There is a lot of great music I did not connect with until I was in my fifties. There is even some Wagner that I now like.


Yeah I've just started investigating Rossini and Janacek.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Yay
> 
> Well that is it you see. Karajan showed that Wagner's music does not all have to be big bellowing voices. With him even the big voices are kept under control. There is a subtlety and line to it you don't find in Solti's Ring, perhaps due to John Culshaw, who preferred overstatement to understatement. Of course, it is ultimately a matter of personal taste.


He'd be very happy with todays singers.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Yeah I've just started investigating Rossini and Janacek.


William Tell


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

It may be a matter of my own temperament that many, if not most, of the moments I treasure most in Wagner are the quiet ones. They are more numerous than the popular image of him would suggest. He does staggering power and wild ecstasy so well that the delicacy and poetry of which he is equally capable may be underestimated.

It's in the quiet moments that Wagner searches the souls of his characters, and gives us glimpses into unseen realms. The ethereal vision of _Lohengrin_'s prelude, the first stirrings of love between Siegmund and Sieglinde, the intimate dialogues of Wotan and Brunnhilde, the enchantment of the boy Siegfried listening to the murmurs of nature, the awestruck hush of Waltraute's account of Wotan on his throne awaiting the end, the quiet fear of Gutrune awaiting the return of the hero who has been slain, the rapturous quintet from _Meistersinger_, the spellbound ecstasy of Tristan and Isolde's night of love, the bottomless sadness of the shepherd's "alte Weise," the otherworldly radiance that pervades the realm of the Grail...

I'm tempted to say that here, in quieter moments, Wagner is at his most profound. Many composers can make an exciting noise, but few can uncover so effortlessly, and penetrate so deeply, these hidden recesses of the soul.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Itullian said:


> William Tell


Just got it!


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Just got it!


I love it.

Its tons of fun.

Which one did you get?- the Chailly 'Italian' or the Gardelli 'French'?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Figleaf said:


> Well, of course it's only a hunch. I only know the people I know, and they might be atypical. Though not as atypical, I suspect, as our friend Woodduck, who (as I understand it) jumped straight into classical music as a youngster and seems to have barely been influenced by popular music at all. Most people's listening trajectory is the opposite of that: from listening almost exclusively to popular music as children, to discovering classical later on.


Yes I listened almost exclusively to pop music as a kid but discovered classical when I was 14/15 and have been addicted since. My wife interestingly listened almost exclusively to classical as a kid and teenager and has discovered pop in recent years!


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Figleaf said:


> I have no evidence for this, but I believe many Wagner fans are also recovered heavy metal addicts. It's as if a liking for the noisy stuff crosses musical genres. (Yes, I know know that Wagner is _much_ more than the stirring passages like Ride of the Valkyries- but he is popularly known for music of that character, and so attracts or repels listeners accordingly.)


You have at least one piece of evidence now, because I really am one, and not recovered for that matter. Loudness, power and general epicness definitely played a role for me _at the very beginning of my classical journey_. Except that since that time I have learned to appreciate not only all the soft and lyrical moments of Wagner's music, but also other classical genres that are almost totally lacking in epicness, such as lieder and solo piano pieces. I like my metal, but I love my Schubert and Schumann as well. Without Wagner that would have never happened. Thank you, Meister!


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## Guest (Jun 22, 2015)

Figleaf said:


> I have no evidence for this, but I believe many Wagner fans are also recovered heavy metal addicts. It's as if a liking for the noisy stuff crosses musical genres. (Yes, I know know that Wagner is _much_ more than the stirring passages like Ride of the Valkyries- but he is popularly known for music of that character, and so attracts or repels listeners accordingly.)


You probably wouldn't do this with Chopin >>>






PS I haven't listened to it; I imagine it's terrible!!


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

DavidA said:


> Not at all. When Hagen summons the Vassels the music is not beautiful - it is wild and barbaric. Wagner wrote it that way intentionally!


It is wonderfully evocative.

I have just posted in the book reading thread a quote from the Roman historian Tacitus' _Annals_ and the account of the Roman wars against the "Teutonic barbarians". When he mentions those barbarians singing merry songs in their camp on the night before battle - that is what the summoning of the vassals sounds like. A picture of the men who survived in a cold and violent world: strong, proud, trusting only in their swords. One only has to remember back then they did not have a full orchestra to sing to


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Marschallin Blair said:


> I love it.
> 
> Its tons of fun.
> 
> Which one did you get?- the Chailly 'Italian' or the Gardelli 'French'?


Chailly Italian. Listening to it now.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Chailly Italian. Listening to it now.


Right on- Pavarotti and Freni, right?

I don't have it but I hear its good.

I have the Gardelli with Caballe.

You'll have to give us one of your unsparing appraisals of it.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Right on- Pavarotti and Freni, right?
> 
> I don't have it but I hear its good.
> 
> ...


What I've heard so far is good. But of course I've nothing to compare it with!  It's the first time I've heard it.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

DavidA said:


> What I've heard so far is good. But of course I've nothing to compare it with!  It's the first time I've heard it.


I love the Gardelli. The choruses are fierce. Caballe's gorgeous sounding- if a bit placid, but that's usually par for the course.


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

Wellington's Victory may be the worst work I've heard by a massively popular composer [notice how the words "magnificent genius" aren't used; bring Raff to the masses!].

Symphonia Domestica gets a lot of hate; why?


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

DavidA said:


> What I've heard so far is good. But of course I've nothing to compare it with!  It's the first time I've heard it.


Here are some YouTube Tells to get you started:





https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DVDDD6FAiu4https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NuyeMQ0Ste4

Arnold is the heroic tenor role par excellence- Pavarotti is as overparted as Piers Brosnan is in his Mamma Mia role!


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

The thread has gone off topic into areas which have nothing to do with classical music.

Members are reminded that any political discussion on the open board must be related to classical music and must go in the politics and religion area.


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