# Discussion thread for TC's Top 100+ Operas List



## Albert7

Discussion to accompany the top operas list thread started by Faustian.


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## Figleaf

Faustian's thread is great, and my non-participation in it so far is only due to the fact that I have some re-listening to do before I can come up with a final list!


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## Itullian

I'm glad I'm not doing it. :tiphat:


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## Albert7

Okay, for my first choice I'm going with Morton Feldman's opera Neither. He hated opera and so did his librettist Samuel Beckett. So the fact that these two dudes managed to come up with the anti-operatic opera is quite groundbreaking and awesome.

Two CD recordings exist of this work.











Hurrah and both recordings of this work is rather awesome. I suggest enjoying this work here at:






and a visual excerpt from this underrated masterpiece:






And the libretto is pretty short... from Beckett's poem:

"NEITHER

to and fro in shadow from inner to outer shadow

from impenetrable self to impenetrable unself
by way of neither

as between two lit refuges whose doors once
neared gently close, once away turned from
gently part again

beckoned back and forth and turned away

heedless of the way, intent on the one gleam
or the other

unheard footfalls only sound

till at last halt for good, absent for good
from self and other

then no sound

then gently light unfading on that unheeded
neither

unspeakable home"

Such existential and stark beauty this opera deserves multiple listening. Any deconstruction of the opera using the operatic form is an incredible tour de force. Even that denial of resolution, resolve, and narrative structure for an opera is like a spiritual experience that even Parsifal has a hard time matching.


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## Albert7

An okay I was hoping to see more action here today.


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## Nereffid

Is anyone interested in a discussion of what we think the list is supposed to achieve?

Is it simply a bringing-together of everyone's top 10 operas, in other words _a reflection of current taste_, or does it have some sort of educative function, in other words _a guide to the best or most important operas_? Can it be both? _Should_ it be both?

I ask these questions now because I'm very keen on being involved in the proposed pre-1700 list, but I get the impression from all the other lists I've been involved with that various participants have very different goals; and I have some strong opinions about how the pre-1700 list shouldn't be done. Seeing as opera's not such a big deal for me, I'd prefer to have this discussion here where I don't have a horse in the race.


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## Albert7

Nereffid said:


> Is anyone interested in a discussion of what we think the list is supposed to achieve?
> 
> Is it simply a bringing-together of everyone's top 10 operas, in other words _a reflection of current taste_, or does it have some sort of educative function, in other words _a guide to the best or most important operas_? Can it be both? _Should_ it be both?
> 
> I ask these questions now because I'm very keen on being involved in the proposed pre-1700 list, but I get the impression from all the other lists I've been involved with that various participants have very different goals; and I have some strong opinions about how the pre-1700 list shouldn't be done. Seeing as opera's not such a big deal for me, I'd prefer to have this discussion here where I don't have a horse in the race.


It should be both. Personal taste but also an opportunity to expose people to new operas. The day that Lord Lance enjoys his first opera will be a mighty fine day of glory.


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## GreenMamba

I don't think anyone would want to do this without expressing their personal tastes. I don't want to vote for what other people think is the best. Let them do that. Then again, I might give extra credit to "important" works that I think deserve to be there. Even if I hated Wagner, I'd expect him to be show up.

Ultimately, a lot of voting will be strategic. As much as I admire Albert's voting list, I doubt any of those works will make it through for a long time. So are these wasted votes?


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## mountmccabe

Nereffid said:


> Is anyone interested in a discussion of what we think the list is supposed to achieve?
> 
> Is it simply a bringing-together of everyone's top 10 operas, in other words _a reflection of current taste_, or does it have some sort of educative function, in other words _a guide to the best or most important operas_? Can it be both? _Should_ it be both?


I am looking at it more of the former, though some of the former will come out, especially if one looks at the voting and this discussion thread. Even this first round has a large range of operas represented. I'm sure there will be many more mentioned and discussed as we continue on to later rounds to fill in the top 100 (or whatever).

I agree with GreenMamba; I don't want to vote for certain operas because I feel like I should. I don't want to talk about what I think other people should listen to, I want to talk about what moves me.


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## Lord Lance

Albert7 said:


> It should be both. Personal taste but also an opportunity to expose people to new operas. The day that Lord Lance enjoys his first opera will be a mighty fine day of glory.


2183. Not a long way to go.

_[Yes, that's a popular culture reference too.]_


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## Albert7

Lord Lance said:


> 2183. Not a long way to go.
> 
> _[Yes, that's a popular culture reference too.]_


Mendelian genetics hath arrived.


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## Faustian

Nereffid said:


> Is anyone interested in a discussion of what we think the list is supposed to achieve?
> 
> Is it simply a bringing-together of everyone's top 10 operas, in other words _a reflection of current taste_, or does it have some sort of educative function, in other words _a guide to the best or most important operas_? Can it be both? _Should_ it be both?
> 
> I ask these questions now because I'm very keen on being involved in the proposed pre-1700 list, but I get the impression from all the other lists I've been involved with that various participants have very different goals; and I have some strong opinions about how the pre-1700 list shouldn't be done. Seeing as opera's not such a big deal for me, I'd prefer to have this discussion here where I don't have a horse in the race.


To echo the thoughts of GreenMamba and mountmccabe, I think the general guideline should be vote for what you enjoy. I know that personally it's difficult to make a distinction between "favorite" and "best" -- the operas that are my favorites are the ones that I believe offer the best, most most moving experiences of musical drama.

I'm also less interested in the sort of historical survey of operas that would be created when attempting to objectively decide the most important works as I am in seeing the most variety and diversity as possible. I think a list leaning towards the latter could very much offer a great way to explore and learn about the genre.


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## Sloe

Really difficult to make mostly on how to be honest to myself.


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## Itullian

I think you folks are taking this far to seriously.

Just do it.


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## Nereffid

GreenMamba said:


> Ultimately, a lot of voting will be strategic. As much as I admire Albert's voting list, I doubt any of those works will make it through for a long time. So are these wasted votes?


I'm inclined to think they are rather wasted, if the aim is to produce a ranked list. (Well, that _will_ be the outcome, regardless of the aims of the individual participants.) Still, even a "wasted" vote has an impact, if only by omission - if someone votes to draw attention to works they feel might otherwise be missed, they might be doing so at the expense of better-known works that they like.

I'd be interested in a parallel sort of vote - on the one hand, each person names their own favourites, and on the other, each person names the works they'd _expect_ to find on a Recommended List. As you say, someone who dislikes Wagner would surely not deny his significance. For my part, I left out a couple of major operas that might have a chance for the top 10, and I might be a little disappointed if they don't make it because of that.

That's the difficulty I always have with this voting system - the juggling of personal favourites with "deserving" works.


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## Sonata

Itullian said:


> I think you folks are taking this far to seriously.
> 
> Just do it.


I wholeheartedly second this notion.


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## Faustian

Itullian said:


> I think you folks are taking this far to seriously.
> 
> Just do it.


The voting thread is for doing! This thread is for pontificating.


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## Balthazar

I hope people vote for their favorites rather than those they think are most important or "should" be on the list. A google search will turn up dozens of largely repetitive lists of the "top operas." 

The fun of the TC lists are the unexpected inclusions and idiosyncrasies that reflect the unique tastes of the individual members.


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## Sloe

Balthazar said:


> A google search will turn up dozens of largely repetitive lists of the "top operas."
> .


That is because some operas are likeable and many people like them.


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## Albert7

Sloe said:


> That is because some operas are likeable and many people like them.


I am in serious dooo dooo because I really like everything except Kenny G and maybe Brian.


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## Guest

Sloe said:


> That is because some operas are likeable and many people like them.


And if they are there because people like them, then we should take advantage of the fact that this board has more diverse likings and vote for what we like 

It's the "*TC* Top Recommended", specifically, for a reason, I think.


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## Albert7

Lachenmann's opera/moving images is incredible. Based off the Little Match Girl story.

Here is a concert version of it:






and a selected actual version:






How could one not be moved by this?


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## Sloe

nathanb said:


> And if they are there because people like them, then we should take advantage of the fact that this board has more diverse likings and vote for what we like
> 
> It's the "*TC* Top Recommended", specifically, for a reason, I think.


I think people should nominate what they like and not feel bad for liking operas that are popular or considered important and also not feel bad for liking operas that are not popular and are not considered important. I am happy to see that there is a diversity in preferences.


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## Albert7

Indeed we need to encompass all tastes here.


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## Steatopygous

Balthazar said:


> I hope people vote for their favorites rather than those they think are most important or "should" be on the list. A google search will turn up dozens of largely repetitive lists of the "top operas."
> 
> The fun of the TC lists are the unexpected inclusions and idiosyncrasies that reflect the unique tastes of the individual members.


It would be a lot easier if it were the top 20. Easier for me, that is. Not, obviously, for whoever is moderating the list.


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## Albert7

Steatopygous said:


> It would be a lot easier if it were the top 20. Easier for me, that is. Not, obviously, for whoever is moderating the list.


I just woke up this morning and think that it would be cool to do top 20-25 but the moderator would go crazy over there.


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## Faustian

Steatopygous said:


> It would be a lot easier if it were the top 20. Easier for me, that is. Not, obviously, for whoever is moderating the list.


You can make a top 20, and then just submit half of it for the first round.


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## Albert7

Faustian said:


> You can make a top 20, and then just submit half of it for the first round.


Nice... when do we officially start?


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## Guest

Albert7 said:


> Nice... when do we officially start?


Whatchu talkin about, Al. It already started and you already submitted your first list.


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## Albert7

nathanb said:


> Whatchu talkin about, Al. It already started and you already submitted your first list.


I meant the voting process for the operas once all lists have been submitted from everyone here


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## Faustian

Albert7 said:


> I meant the voting process for the operas once all lists have been submitted from everyone here


As of now I have the first nomination round set to end on Monday, and the first voting round on the ten operas receiving the most votes will start immediately after that. Now of course if I am inundated with nominations up to and through Monday, then I might consider pushing that back slightly. Otherwise that's what you can plan on.


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## mountmccabe

I might, again, recommend selecting more than ten operas to vote on for ten slots. If only ten are selected then each and every one of them is going to make it on the list, even if everyone ranks the same opera last. If the top twelve (or so) operas are taken from the nominations, and everyone ranks their top ten (of those twelve) then the bottom two will get dropped. The bottom two from the first list might end up being 11 and 12 anyway, but I would bet that that doesn't happen.

This is controlling for the differences in preferences between the (open-ended) nomination round and the (limited) voting round.


I am of course fine with the method as stated, but I like this relegation method.


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## Faustian

mountmccabe said:


> I might, again, recommend selecting more than ten operas to vote on for ten slots. If only ten are selected then each and every one of them is going to make it on the list, even if everyone ranks the same opera last. If the top twelve (or so) operas are taken from the nominations, and everyone ranks their top ten (of those twelve) then the bottom two will get dropped. The bottom two from the first list might end up being 11 and 12 anyway, but I would bet that that doesn't happen.
> 
> This is controlling for the differences in preferences between the (open-ended) nomination round and the (limited) voting round.
> 
> I am of course fine with the method as stated, but I like this relegation method.


I thought of employing this method, but what I like about the current system is that it give a little more import to the nomination round: the top ten point leaders are automatically guaranteed a spot on the list.


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## Balthazar

mountmccabe said:


> I might, again, recommend selecting more than ten operas to vote on for ten slots. If only ten are selected then each and every one of them is going to make it on the list, even if everyone ranks the same opera last. If the top twelve (or so) operas are taken from the nominations, and everyone ranks their top ten (of those twelve) then the bottom two will get dropped. The bottom two from the first list might end up being 11 and 12 anyway, but I would bet that that doesn't happen.
> 
> This is controlling for the differences in preferences between the (open-ended) nomination round and the (limited) voting round.
> 
> I am of course fine with the method as stated, but I like this relegation method.


I liked this idea too. It seems it would make the second round more dynamic and more accurate. But, like MM, I'm fine with whatever you choose.

P.S. Thanks for doing this! :tiphat:


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## Faustian

Balthazar said:


> I liked this idea too. It seems it would make the second round more dynamic and more accurate. But, like MM, I'm fine with whatever you choose.


Oh I agree, it would make the voting round a little more dynamic, but I'm afraid at the expense of the nomination round. You could potentially have an opera that got, say, the 7th most nomination points not make the top ten, while an opera that got the 14th most nomination points is included on the list. So right there that makes the number of nominations and where users rank the operas on their list vastly less important.

And it opens up a whole new can of worms: what then to do with those 5 operas that _didn't_ make the list? Are they automatically included in the next voting round? Are they thrown back into the mix starting at zero with all the other operas?

So it's not that I didn't take these ideas into account before starting the tournament, and I do appreciate the feedback! Ultimately when weighing all these factors I thought the "standard" voting and scoring method was the most balanced.


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## Albert7

Faustian said:


> Oh I agree, it would make the voting round a little more dynamic, but I'm afraid at the expense of the nomination round. You could potentially have an opera that got, say, the 7th most nomination points not make the top ten, while an opera that got the 14th most nomination points is included on the list. So right there that makes the number of nominations and where users rank the operas on their list vastly less important.
> 
> And it opens up a whole new can of worms: what then to do with those 5 operas that _didn't_ make the list? Are they automatically included in the next voting round? Are they thrown back into the mix starting at zero with all the other operas?
> 
> So it's not that I didn't take these ideas into account before starting the tournament, and I do appreciate the feedback! Ultimately when weighing all these factors I thought the "standard" voting and scoring method was the most balanced.


I suggest that we do a double elimination tourney where a particular opera has to lose twice in order to be completely eliminated. So that way operas are not accidentally booted in the netherlands off the list in the first round.

I figure if hockey teams do it this way, why not operas?


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## Albert7

Tonight... this is the best thing that Adams ever composed.










This is the opera that gives a voice to both the Palestinians and Jewish folks. The arias are moving and this DVD and Nagano's recording is a must hear.

Kudos to those folks who brave to understand how powerful this work is. Also note that this week Die Freischutz features guns on the cover. Lots of gunnery this week for operas here.


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## mountmccabe

Faustian said:


> And it opens up a whole new can of worms: what then to do with those 5 operas that _didn't_ make the list? Are they automatically included in the next voting round? Are they thrown back into the mix starting at zero with all the other operas?


I would say that the 5 (or 2!) are thrown back in the mix with all the other operas, everything starting at zero. I would expect that in most cases they would get more nominations and make it into the voting round again. And I would expect that they would do better.

I agree that the nomination round should be important, but my concern is that it may not be significant (in the mathematically sense) by the time we get down to comparing #10 and #11 from those nominations. #11 may actually be more liked by the group overall, especially if #10 got there based on a few high rankings. I will accept that assigning points on a 15, 14, 13... basis will help with this as well.



Faustian said:


> So it's not that I didn't take these ideas into account before starting the tournament, and I do appreciate the feedback! Ultimately when weighing all these factors I thought the "standard" voting and scoring method was the most balanced.


Thank you for running this, and I appreciate the thoughts and explanations.


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## Faustian

The variety of operas that have been nominated so far has been impressive, with a total of 120 different works being submitted in the first round alone. Which of course means that points are spread relatively thin; there are a large group of operas that were only separated by a few points. So I encourage everyone who submitted nominations in the first round to continue pushing for their favorites, and anyone who missed out in the first round to join the fun and help shape the list moving forward.


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## Albert7

Faustian said:


> The variety of operas that have been nominated so far has been impressive, with a total of 120 different works being submitted in the first round alone. Which of means that points are spread relatively thin, there are a lot of operas that were only separated by a few points. So I encourage everyone who submitted nominations in the first round to continue pushing for their favorites, and anyone who missed out in the first round to join the fun and help shape the list.


Thanks man for the time you are taking to do this.


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## DonAlfonso

I thought it might be interesting to have a look at the first round of nominations by composer, rather than individual operas, so here are the results for those composers having 8 or more nominations in total:
Wagner (7 different works) (42 nominations) (Average score 11.7)
Mozart (5 different works) (33 nominations) (Average score 12.1)
Verdi (10 different works) (29 nominations) (Average score 10.9)
Puccini (6 different works) (23 nominations) (Average score 9.9)
Berg (2 different works) (11 nominations) (Average score 10)
Bizet (2 different works) (8 nominations) (Average score 10.9)
Glass (6 different works) (8 nominations) (Average score 10.1)
Monteverdi (2 different works) (8 nominations) (Average score 10.6)


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## GreenMamba

So Verdi may be suffering from split voting. Actually, Puccini is the big loser here as he didn't get anything in the top 10. I suspect this sort of thing may straighten itself out with Puccini fans rallying around one work.


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## Faustian

DonAlfonso said:


> I thought it might be interesting to have a look at the first round of nominations by composer, rather than individual operas, so here are the results for those composers having 8 or more nominations in total:
> Wagner (7 different works) (42 nominations) (Average score 11.7)
> Mozart (5 different works) (33 nominations) (Average score 12.1)
> Verdi (10 different works) (29 nominations) (Average score 10.9)
> Puccini (6 different works) (23 nominations) (Average score 9.9)
> Berg (2 different works) (11 nominations) (Average score 10)
> Bizet (2 different works) (8 nominations) (Average score 10.9)
> Glass (6 different works) (8 nominations) (Average score 10.1)
> Monteverdi (2 different works) (8 nominations) (Average score 10.6)


Very cool statistic, you're getting more in depth than I am over here!



GreenMamba said:


> So Verdi may be suffering from split voting. Actually, Puccini is the big loser here as he didn't get anything in the top 10. I suspect this sort of thing may straighten itself out with Puccini fans rallying around one work.


Several of Puccini's operas were really only a strong vote or two away from getting into the top 10, along with others. I'm very curious to see how things play out in the second round.

Speaking of which, I was thinking now that the first round is over I would have the nomination rounds last about 4 days rather than 5. Let me know if anyone has an opinion on that either way.


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## Clayton

I have reread the instructions at the start of the voting thread but I am (a little) daft and don't understand whether I keep nominating my favourite opera's that have not made it on the list yet or must I choose different ones?


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## GreenMamba

Just noticing now that Glass had six (!) different works nominated. But mostly just "onesies."

I'm curious to see how different the actual top 10 will be from the one we would have had if we skipped the second stage.


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## GreenMamba

Clayton said:


> I have reread the instructions at the start of the voting thread but I am (a little) daft and don't understand whether I keep nominating my favourite opera's that have not made it on the list yet or must I choose different ones?


You will be able to keep nominating them in Round 2. But we're not there yet...we're at Round 1, part B.

When people are voting for 5 works each, then they are voting from a list of 10 noms. That's not the time to introduce other works.


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## Faustian

Clayton said:


> I have reread the instructions at the start of the voting thread but I am (a little) daft and don't understand whether I keep nominating my favourite opera's that have not made it on the list yet or must I choose different ones?


Yes, so after this voting round is over and we determine the order of our top 10, you keep submitting a list of your favorite operas aside from any that made the list. If it's the same set of 10 operas because none of your nominations made the list, or with only a few additions or subtractions, that's fine!!


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## Clayton

Okay, thank you GreenMamba and Faustian

I think I understand now.


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## Albert7

It is interesting that even though the Ring is probably the most ambitious opera (or set of operas) in human history that it isn't necessarily voted as the top favorite or "best" or whatever classification.

Which means the poll is doing what it is supposed to do; people are voting their favs instead of what critics want.


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## Albert7

Go LICHT go LICHT!


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## Albert7

I just noticed that for the traditionalists that Berlioz isn't around? :\


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## Itullian

Albert7 said:


> I just noticed that for the traditionalists that Berlioz isn't around? :\


Neither did you


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## Albert7

Itullian said:


> Neither did you


Les Troyens is for 2nd round after something on my list is in.


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## Faustian

Albert7 said:


> I just noticed that for the traditionalists that Berlioz isn't around? :\


So many great operas, so few nominations.


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## Sonata

I was very pleased to see Don Carlo make it into the top 5. Verdi made it two spots higher than he did in the previous list with Traviata checking in at #7 last time, and personally I think Don Carlo is a better opera.


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## Sloe

Sonata said:


> I was very pleased to see Don Carlo make it into the top 5. Verdi made it two spots higher than he did in the previous list with Traviata checking in at #7 last time, and personally I think Don Carlo is a better opera.


They are both good operas. For the moment I am more into Don Carlo.


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## sabrina

I am quite happy for Mozart, sad for Rossini, Puccini, Bellini, Donizetti &al...Mad on Wagner:lol:


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## Guest

Albert7 said:


> Les Troyens is for 2nd round after something on my list is in.


I thought about Les Troyens, but in the end, it's just not where my tastes are at at this moment in time. Gotta be true to yourself, of course...


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## Sloe

sabrina said:


> I am quite happy for Mozart, sad for Rossini, Puccini, Bellini, Donizetti &al...Mad on Wagner:lol:


I think there are many voters that are not that much into opera and simply don´t like Rossini, Puccini, Bellini and Donizetti.
Wagner had only two operas in the top ten The Ring is the opera of operas and Tristan und Isolde is a very fine opera that have been called the worlds best opera.


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## GreenMamba

Sloe said:


> I think there are many voters that are not that much into opera and simply don´t like Rossini, Puccini, Bellini and Donizetti.


I don't know if that has anything to do with being "not that much into" opera. Some who are not much into it love La Boheme, for example.

But yes, I agree that there's a split on these Italians. To some, they are the best of opera. To others, not so much.


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## Guest

Sloe said:


> I think there are many voters that are not that much into opera and simply don´t like Rossini, Puccini, Bellini and Donizetti.


Echoing GreenMamba, I see no correlation here. There is _nothing_ about Puccini or Donizetti, for instance, that make their operas any more "opera" than those of Rameau or Schreker or Sciarrino or Dusapin...

Liking different operas does not equate to not liking operas, and it's a bit of an offensive statement, to be honest.

[That being said, I do not dislike the music of Rossini or Bellini or whoever; I just (GOD FORBID) like a few things better]


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## Albert7

nathanb said:


> Echoing GreenMamba, I see no correlation here. There is _nothing_ about Puccini or Donizetti, for instance, that make their operas any more "opera" than those of Rameau or Schreker or Sciarrino or Dusapin...
> 
> Liking different operas does not equate to not liking operas, and it's a bit of an offensive statement, to be honest.
> 
> [That being said, I do not dislike the music of Rossini or Bellini or whoever; I just (GOD FORBID) like a few things better]


Amen. Well said.


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## Sloe

nathanb said:


> Echoing GreenMamba, I see no correlation here. There is _nothing_ about Puccini or Donizetti, for instance, that make their operas any more "opera" than those of Rameau or Schreker or Sciarrino or Dusapin...
> 
> Liking different operas does not equate to not liking operas, and it's a bit of an offensive statement, to be honest.
> 
> [That being said, I do not dislike the music of Rossini or Bellini or whoever; I just (GOD FORBID) like a few things better]


So you don´t think that those who likes Debussy and Bartok have a certain tendency to vote for their operas and if they also are not giving that much attention to operas or/and have an aversion towards Italian opera also don´t vote for Bellini, Donizetti, Rossini and Puccini composers who mostly made operas and whose complete reputation are as opera composers while Debussy and Bartok made lots of other music? With this I mean that they don´t vote for Debussy and Bartok because they are Debussy and Bartok but they actually like these operas. Another thing to take into consideration is if Debussy and Bartok who made only one opera each are as popular as Puccini and Donizetti who made lots of operas each there will be a split that will cause a disadvantage for the latter ones. If not so much into opera is offencive I could say a wider musical interest than just opera.

There have also been a lot of discussions before about operas that are more liked by those who prefers orchestral classical music and those who prefer operas and it have always been agreed there is a difference in tastes. And none of those names you mentioned came into the top list I would say if these names were mentioned it would suggest a rather high interest for opera since the person would have tried to find out to decide if they like them or not.


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## Morimur

Too much 'fluff' in those Italian operas. But I must confess to not being a fan of _anything_ Italian - Verdi being an exception.


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## Guest

Sloe said:


> So you don´t think that those who likes Debussy and Bartok have a certain tendency to vote for their operas and if they also are not giving that much attention to operas also don´t vote for Bellini, Donizetti, Rossini and Puccini composers who mostly made operas and whose complete reputation are as opera composers while Debussy and Bartok made lots of other music? Another thing to take into consideration is if Debussy and Bartok who made only one opera each are as popular as Puccini and Donizetti who made lots of operas each there will be a split that will cause a disadvantage for the latter ones. If not so much into opera is offencive I could say a wider musical interest than just opera.
> 
> There have also been a lot of discussions before about operas that are more liked by those who prefers orchestral classical music and those who prefer operas and it have always been agreed there is a difference in tastes. And none of those names you mentioned came into the top list I would say if these names were mentioned it would suggest a rather high interest for opera since the person would have tried to find out to decide if they like them or not.


Interesting. I find, personally, that people who listen to operas tend to like operas, people who listen to Puccini tend to like Puccini, and people who listen to Debussy tend to like Debussy. Further analysis sounds highly questionable.


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## GreenMamba

Sloe said:


> So you don´t think that those who likes Debussy and Bartok have a certain tendency to vote for their operas and if they also are not giving that much attention to operas also don´t vote for Bellini, Donizetti, Rossini and Puccini composers who mostly made operas and whose complete reputation are as opera composers while Debussy and Bartok made lots of other music? Another thing to take into consideration is if Debussy and Bartok who made only one opera each are as popular as Puccini and Donizetti who made lots of operas each there will be a split that will cause a disadvantage for the latter ones. If not so much into opera is offencive I could say a wider musical interest than just opera.


This is a little hard to untangle.

You have a point about vote-splitting, but Mozart and Wagner do well enough despite it.


----------



## Sonata

Sloe said:


> I think there are many voters that are not that much into opera and simply don´t like Rossini, Puccini, Bellini and Donizetti.
> Wagner had only two operas in the top ten The Ring is the opera of operas and Tristan und Isolde is a very fine opera that have been called the worlds best opera.


ONLY two? he was the only one other than Mozart to have two. Besides which even though Ring is included as a cycle it results in a very large body of Wagner's work being included. Certainly not downplaying his accomplishments, but clearly if someone is not a Wagner fan they wouldn't be excited about the results! I think you're taking sabrina's remarks a touch more seriously than she meant them


----------



## Sloe

GreenMamba said:


> This is a little hard to untangle.
> 
> You have a point about vote-splitting, but Mozart and Wagner do well enough despite it.


I was basically trying to not be offensive.


----------



## Albert7

Sloe said:


> So you don´t think that those who likes Debussy and Bartok have a certain tendency to vote for their operas and if they also are not giving that much attention to operas or/and have an aversion towards Italian opera also don´t vote for Bellini, Donizetti, Rossini and Puccini composers who mostly made operas and whose complete reputation are as opera composers while Debussy and Bartok made lots of other music? With this I mean that they don´t vote for Debussy and Bartok because they are Debussy and Bartok but they actually like these operas. Another thing to take into consideration is if Debussy and Bartok who made only one opera each are as popular as Puccini and Donizetti who made lots of operas each there will be a split that will cause a disadvantage for the latter ones. If not so much into opera is offencive I could say a wider musical interest than just opera.
> 
> There have also been a lot of discussions before about operas that are more liked by those who prefers orchestral classical music and those who prefer operas and it have always been agreed there is a difference in tastes. And none of those names you mentioned came into the top list I would say if these names were mentioned it would suggest a rather high interest for opera since the person would have tried to find out to decide if they like them or not.


Well said! I agree too.


----------



## Celloman

Is it possible that some people could be taking this a bit too seriously? 

But that being said, Tristan _should_ have been #1...


----------



## Sloe

Celloman said:


> Is it possible that some people could be taking this a bit too seriously?
> 
> But that being said, Tristan should have been in the #1 spot...


There are over 40 000 operas first or tenth place doesn´t really matter.


----------



## Celloman

Sloe said:


> There are over 40 000 operas first or tenth place doesn´t really matter.


What do you mean it doesn't matter? It's LIFE AND DEATH sir!! What's the point of anything if I don't get the final say?


----------



## Faustian

GreenMamba said:


> But yes, I agree that there's a split on these Italians. To some, they are the best of opera. To others, not so much.


Yeah, they have their devoted fans. And while I actually love a lot of their music, I find dramatically many of their operas come up a little short for me, or at least don't reach the heights of others. Which is why I haven't personally nominated any of them. Yet.


----------



## Guest

Faustian said:


> Yeah, they have their devoted fans. And while I actually love a lot of their music, I find dramatically many of their operas come up a little short for me, or at least don't reach the heights of others. Which is why I haven't personally nominated any of them. Yet.


And if it weren't for my vote, Verdi might have not made the top 10 at all. And yet I guess I'm not all that into opera? In spite of having listened to operas by Janacek, Ravel, Nono, Zimmermann, Manoury, and Reimann in just the last three days? Please...


----------



## Faustian

nathanb said:


> And yet I guess I'm not all that into opera?


Obviously that's not the case. I think there are multiple reasons for a lack of Italian opera in the top 10. Vote-splitting; bel canto opera perhaps being a bit of a niche in the genre; a perceived lack of dramatic intensity in some of these operas; the fact that there are other individual operas that participants just like _more_. But I don't think there being some kind of split between opera enthusiasts and those who merely dabble in the genre has anything to do with it.

Like Sonata pointed out, we've only finished the top 10, and only Mozart and Wagner have multiple operas on the list so far. Let's see what the top 20 and 30 brings for Italian opera.


----------



## Sloe

nathanb said:


> And if it weren't for my vote, Verdi might have not made the top 10 at all. And yet I guess I'm not all that into opera? In spite of having listened to operas by Janacek, Ravel, Nono, Zimmermann, Manoury, and Reimann in just the last three days? Please...


Noone have said anything about *your* operatic interest.


----------



## Nereffid

Sloe said:


> So you don´t think that those who likes Debussy and Bartok have a certain tendency to vote for their operas and if they also are not giving that much attention to operas or/and have an aversion towards Italian opera also don´t vote for Bellini, Donizetti, Rossini and Puccini composers who mostly made operas and whose complete reputation are as opera composers while Debussy and Bartok made lots of other music? With this I mean that they don´t vote for Debussy and Bartok because they are Debussy and Bartok but they actually like these operas. Another thing to take into consideration is if Debussy and Bartok who made only one opera each are as popular as Puccini and Donizetti who made lots of operas each there will be a split that will cause a disadvantage for the latter ones. If not so much into opera is offencive I could say a wider musical interest than just opera.
> 
> There have also been a lot of discussions before about operas that are more liked by those who prefers orchestral classical music and those who prefer operas and it have always been agreed there is a difference in tastes. And none of those names you mentioned came into the top list I would say if these names were mentioned it would suggest a rather high interest for opera since the person would have tried to find out to decide if they like them or not.





Faustian said:


> I think there are multiple reasons for a lack of Italian opera in the top 10. Vote-splitting; bel canto opera perhaps being a bit of a niche in the genre; a perceived lack of dramatic intensity in some of these operas; the fact that there are other individual operas that participants just like _more_. But I don't think there being some kind of split between opera enthusiasts and those who merely dabble in the genre has anything to do with it.


Speaking as a "dabbler" I'm inclined to agree with Sloe on this. 
I have _seen_ very few operas; I have little interest in "the great roles", or who are the great singers in these roles. Generally if I like an opera, the _fact that it's an opera_ is rather secondary. The way I see it, I like a lot of different kinds of music, and some of it just happens to be operas; and composers who tended to devote themselves to opera are usually very low on my radar. So certainly I feel that my offering a list here is in some way a bit of "false pretences", and actually if the project were being conducted in the Opera forum I probably wouldn't contribute.


----------



## Guest

Nereffid said:


> Speaking as a "dabbler" I'm inclined to agree with Sloe on this.
> I have _seen_ very few operas; I have little interest in "the great roles", or who are the great singers in these roles. Generally if I like an opera, the _fact that it's an opera_ is rather secondary. The way I see it, I like a lot of different kinds of music, and some of it just happens to be operas; and composers who tended to devote themselves to opera are usually very low on my radar. So certainly I feel that my offering a list here is in some way a bit of "false pretences", and actually if the project were being conducted in the Opera forum I probably wouldn't contribute.


Speak for yourself


----------



## Nereffid

nathanb said:


> Speak for yourself


Of course I'm speaking for myself. 
Sample words in what I wrote:
_I'm
I
I
I
I
I
my
I
my
I
_

Why did you even feel the need to respond like that?


----------



## Guest

Nereffid said:


> Of course I'm speaking for myself.
> Sample words in what I wrote:
> _I'm
> I
> I
> I
> I
> I
> my
> I
> my
> I
> _
> 
> Why did you even feel the need to respond like that?


But the purpose of your post was to agree to a statement which used a similar number of third person pronouns


----------



## Faustian

Nereffid said:


> Speaking as a "dabbler" I'm inclined to agree with Sloe on this.
> I have _seen_ very few operas; I have little interest in "the great roles", or who are the great singers in these roles. Generally if I like an opera, the _fact that it's an opera_ is rather secondary. The way I see it, I like a lot of different kinds of music, and some of it just happens to be operas; and composers who tended to devote themselves to opera are usually very low on my radar. So certainly I feel that my offering a list here is in some way a bit of "false pretences", and actually if the project were being conducted in the Opera forum I probably wouldn't contribute.


Of course there may be exceptions, and you may be one of them. I just don't get the sense that is in any way an _overriding _ factor. If you compare our top 10 to the original that was conducted in the opera forum, they only had two Italian composers in the top 10 as well: Verdi and Puccini. In ours, Puccini was replaced with Monteverdi.


----------



## Albert7

Honestly this may be sad to boot but I prefer Verdi way over Puccini any given day.


----------



## Faustian

Albert7 said:


> Honestly this may be sad to boot but I prefer Verdi way over Puccini any given day.


While I enjoy a lot of Puccini and consider _La bohème_ to be a flawless masterpiece, you're not alone in that.


----------



## Sloe

Faustian said:


> Of course there may be exceptions, and you may be one of them. I just don't get the sense that is in any way an _overriding _ factor. If you compare our top 10 to the original that was conducted in the opera forum, they only had two Italian composers in the top 10 as well: Verdi and Puccini. In ours, Puccini was replaced with Monteverdi.


In the original list Pelleas et Mellisande was on place 53 and Bluebeards Castle on 62.


----------



## Faustian

Sloe said:


> In the original list Pelleas et Mellisande was on place 53 and Bluebeards Castle on 62.


True. Both far too low in my opinion (and worth noting behind works like _War and Peace_ by Prokofiev and _Moses und Aron_ by Schoenberg, not exactly composers "known" for opera either). But that's a different discussion.


----------



## GreenMamba

I believe I read somewhere that Schoenberg made it to the old list with only two people voting for it. We'll see how this list runs. It looks like our participation level is similar or slightly better than theirs was at the start. I'd like to have seen it even higher. 

I don't think the Opera forum people are necessarily more equipped to vote, but I'd like to see all participate.


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## Sloe

GreenMamba said:


> I don't think the Opera forum people are necessarily more equipped to vote, but I'd like to see all participate.


Every person that can mention ten operas that they like is enough equipped to participate.


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## DonAlfonso

Nereffid said:


> Speaking as a "dabbler" I'm inclined to agree with Sloe on this.
> I have _seen_ very few operas; I have little interest in "the great roles", or who are the great singers in these roles. Generally if I like an opera, the _fact that it's an opera_ is rather secondary. The way I see it, I like a lot of different kinds of music, and some of it just happens to be operas; and composers who tended to devote themselves to opera are usually very low on my radar. So certainly I feel that my offering a list here is in some way a bit of "false pretences", and actually if the project were being conducted in the Opera forum I probably wouldn't contribute.


This is a poll of the most recommended operas, not composers, so yes vote splitting happens but so what. I'd be as upset if my favorite Verdi opera 'Rigoletto' gets beat out by 'Falstaff' as I would if it gets beat out by ' Tannhauser'. I think that so long as people are voting in good faith (ie ranking operas they've actually heard and like) everyone should be voting - not just the opera 'nerds' (amongst whom I count myself).

I like that the project is being conducted in this forum because it may attract the "dabblers".

As of right now (Saturday evening in Eastern Australia) I can tell you that of the current top 11 operas in round 2 there are:
7 Italian-language operas (6 by Italian Composers)
3 German operas
1 French opera (no prizes for guessing which one)


----------



## Sloe

DonAlfonso said:


> This is a poll of the most recommended operas, not composers, so yes vote splitting happens but so what. I'd be as upset if my favorite Verdi opera 'Rigoletto' gets beat out by 'Falstaff' as I would if it gets beat out by ' Tannhauser'. I think that so long as people are voting in good faith (ie ranking operas they've actually heard and like) everyone should be voting - not just the opera 'nerds' (amongst whom I count myself).
> 
> I like that the project is being conducted in this forum because it may attract the "dabblers".
> 
> As of right now (Saturday evening in Eastern Australia) I can tell you that of the current top 11 operas in round 2 there are:
> 7 Italian-language operas (6 by Italian Composers)
> 3 German operas
> 1 French opera (no prizes for guessing which one)


It is not so much about dabblers in opera as in not being a dabbler in non operatic classical music. There is no judgment or condemning in saying there is a bias towards operas by composers that have a reputation also in other fields not that it is enormous but enough to affect the results somewhat.


----------



## Sloe

Faustian said:


> True. Both far too low in my opinion (and worth noting behind works like _War and Peace_ by Prokofiev and _Moses und Aron_ by Schoenberg, not exactly composers "known" for opera either). But that's a different discussion.


Prokofiev composed several operas and he is certainly more prominent as an opera composer than Debussy and Bartok.


----------



## Faustian

Sloe said:


> Prokofiev composed several operas and he is certainly more prominent as an opera composer than Debussy and Bartok.


More prominent? Hmmm. More prolific perhaps. But his operas are not among his best known compositions; I would say both _Pelléas et Mélisande_ and _Bluebeard's Castle_ are more well-known among opera goers and generally held in higher esteem than any of Prokofiev's operas.


----------



## Selby

Are there any fan's around here of Per Nørgård's operas?

Gilgamesh (1972)









Siddharta (1979)









Nuit des Hommes (1996)


----------



## Celloman

How have I not voted for Fidelio yet? I was just listening to the Klemperer recording today and realized how much I love this opera. Oh well, I'll have to put it in my #1 spot in the next round.


----------



## DonAlfonso

Faustian,
Not disputing the results of the top 10 in round 2 at all, and it makes no difference to the ranking, but I counted only 10 nominations for both Die Meistersinger (Posts 99 103 108 112 116 120 121 128 130 and 132); and Cosi (Posts 106 111 113 116 120 124 128 130 132 and 133).
Have I missed one?


----------



## tdc

*edit -* took out opinionated section.

I like this Opera by Berio.


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## Faustian

DonAlfonso said:


> Faustian,
> Not disputing the results of the top 10 in round 2 at all, and it makes no difference to the ranking, but I counted only 10 nominations for both Die Meistersinger (Posts 99 103 108 112 116 120 121 128 130 and 132); and Cosi (Posts 106 111 113 116 120 124 128 130 132 and 133).
> Have I missed one?


No , looks like you're right. Must have double counted a nomination. Thanks!


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## Albert7

Awesome. Second round and so far none of my noms have shown up. Astonishingly no Lulu or Moses Und Aron which are the most conservative spectrum of my list in theory have been voted in yet either.


----------



## sabrina

I don't remember who voted for Verdi's Stiffelio, but I want to thank him/her a lot, as I was intrigued by the name, so I watched it on you tube and I loved it. Its history is also sad, as it shows how stupid we, people, are from times to times. That showed me how easy we should we take this voting game...as for myself, I should be banned for voting, because of stupid ignorance.


----------



## Sonata

In spite of it's tunefullness, La Traviata has always left me a little cold. I think it was because the second half of my first recording bored me to tears and that's always set with me. It has been growing on me slowly as I've listened to other versions.

I might not look at it the same way again though after reading my booklet about the origins of the opera, after a book by Alexandre Dumas. But the book ITSELF was loosely based on his own love affair. I never knew this (although it ended with the lady in question tiring of their life together and he parted ways as a result. Very moving


----------



## Faustian

Albert7 said:


> Awesome. Second round and so far none of my noms have shown up. Astonishingly no Lulu or Moses Und Aron which are the most conservative spectrum of my list in theory have been voted in yet either.


Personally I know that I just haven't heard a lot of the selections on your list, as good as they might be. And I think that may be the case for others as well -- having literally hundreds of years worth of operas to choose from, it's hard to keep up with all the more current works on top of it. Not that I haven't heard any more current operas or that they won't be getting my nominations later in tournament. But perhaps for that reason its not surprising that none have yet to make the top 20.

So far Verdi has had enormous support and is making a much better showing overall than on the first TC Opera List. On the other side of things, one of the more significant opera composers to have taken the biggest fall is perhaps Richard Strauss: from one opera in the top 10 and 2 solidly in the top 20 on that older list, here he barely had one scratch its way into the top 20.


----------



## Sonata

Faustian said:


> Personally I know that I just haven't heard a lot of the selections on your list, as good as they might be. And I think that may be the case for others as well -- having literally hundreds of years worth of operas to choose from, it's hard to keep up with all the more current works on top of it. Not that I haven't heard any more current operas or that they won't be getting my nominations later in tournament. But perhaps for that reason its not surprising that none have yet to make the top 20.
> 
> So far Verdi has had enormous support and is making a much better showing overall than on the first TC Opera List. On the other side of things, one of the more significant opera composers to have taken the biggest fall is perhaps Richard Strauss: from one opera in the top 10 and 2 solidly in the top 20 on that older list, here he barely had one scratch its way into the top 20.


Yes I'm pleased with Verdi's showing so far. Having just come into the genre really when the last list was voted in, I did not participate. Puccini and Mozart were my top guys at the time (and they are still great!) But Verdi is supreme to me and I've been throwing a lot of my support his way....and not just as a popularity contest. I genuinely love or really like most of his operas


----------



## Itullian

Women don't vote for Wagner.


----------



## Faustian

Itullian said:


> Women don't vote for Wagner.


:lol:

Looks like the gloves just came off...


----------



## Albert7

Itullian said:


> Women don't vote for Wagner.


Really? I Think that one of our huge Wagner fans is a lady here.


----------



## Sonata

Selby said:


> Are there any fan's around here of Per Nørgård's operas?
> 
> Gilgamesh (1972)
> 
> View attachment 72897
> 
> 
> Siddharta (1979)
> 
> View attachment 72898
> 
> 
> Nuit des Hommes (1996)
> 
> View attachment 72899


no, never heard any of his music. But I'll give one a try. Which is your favorite?


----------



## Itullian

Albert7 said:


> Really? I Think that one of our huge Wagner fans is a lady here.


Yeah, one. 
Check the votes


----------



## Selby

Sonata said:


> no, never heard any of his music. But I'll give one a try. Which is your favorite?


Nuit des Hommes (1996) is the only one that is complete on YT:






I find it very, very engaging.


----------



## DonAlfonso

Albert7 said:


> Awesome. Second round and so far none of my noms have shown up. Astonishingly no Lulu or Moses Und Aron which are the most conservative spectrum of my list in theory have been voted in yet either.


Take heart Moses Und Aron was a solid 14th in the second round so your day is coming.


----------



## Albert7

DonAlfonso said:


> Take heart Moses Und Aron was a solid 14th in the second round so your day is coming.


Cool and then we still need a post 1950s operas or few too.


----------



## Sonata

Albert7 said:


> Cool and then we still need a post 1950s operas or few too.


Good luck with that one . But hey, you'll be exposing people to these works and maybe during the TalkClassical Most Recommended Operas in 2020, you'll see them higher on the list.


----------



## DonAlfonso

*Winners and losers*

Now that we have our top 20 list we can start evaluating the results against the previous poll held in 2010. The table below shows our top 20 operas, the position each had in 2010 and the rise (+) or fall (-) from that year.

 2015​ 2010​ Change​ Opera Composer/Name 1​ 1​ NC​ Wagner: Der Ring des Nibelungen 2​ 6​ +4​ Mozart: Don Giovanni 3​ 2​ -1​ Wagner: Tristan und Isolde 4​ 3​ -1​ Mozart: Le nozze di Figaro 5​ 25​ +20​ Verdi: Don Carlos 6​ 11​ +5​ Mozart: Die Zauberflöte 7​ 53​ +46​ Debussy: Pelléas et Mélisande 8​ 18​ +10​ Berg: Wozzeck 9​ 29​ +20​ Monteverdi: L'Orfeo 10​ 62​ +52​ Bartók: Bluebeard's Castle 11​ 17​ +6​ Mozart: Così fan tutte 12​ 13​ +1​ Wagner: Parsifal 13​ 15​ +2​ Verdi: Otello 14​ 10​ -4​ Wagner: Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg 15​ 12​ -3​ Bizet: Carmen 16​ 7​ -9​ Verdi: La traviata 17​ 8​ -11​ Puccini: La bohème 18​ 26​ +8​ Verdi: Rigoletto 19​ 45​ +26​ Puccini: Madama Butterfly 20​ 9​ -11​ Strauss: Der Rosenkavalier



The big losers:
-4 Giulio Cesare (Handel)
-5 Les Troyens (Berlioz)
14 Il Barbiere di Siviglia (Rossini)
16 Tosca (Puccini)
19 Salome (Strauss)
20 Lucia di Lammermoor (Donizetti)
have all fallen from the top 20


----------



## Sonata

Interesting, no bel canto at all in the top 20. Wagner and Mozart remain stalwart favorites even when individual operas shift position.


----------



## sabrina

Sonata said:


> Interesting, no bel canto at all in the top 20. Wagner and Mozart remain stalwart favorites even when individual operas shift position.


So Traviata or Rigoletto are no bel cantos?


----------



## Figleaf

Itullian said:


> Women don't vote for Wagner.


Fortunately for Wagner, women don't make up much of a voting bloc on TC! 

It would be interesting to find out what the results would be if only women voted. (Probably the whole site would vanish due to lack of participation!) I suspect that, Wagner aside, there isn't much of a gender difference in composer preference. I could be wrong.


----------



## Albert7

Once again throwing all the post 1950 works again into the ring toss to see what sticks. Still hoping that Lulu will be in too.


----------



## Sonata

sabrina said:


> So Traviata or Rigoletto are no bel cantos?


I was not aware that they were considered bel canto, I've never heard them discussed as such. At any rate there are no operas from the big three generally associated with the style (Bellini, Rossini, Donizetti)


----------



## Faustian

DonAlfonso said:


> Now that we have our top 20 list we can start evaluating the results against the previous poll held in 2010. The table below shows our top 20 operas, the position each had in 2010 and the rise (+) or fall (-) from that year.
> 
> The big losers:
> -4 Giulio Cesare (Handel)
> -5 Les Troyens (Berlioz)
> 14 Il Barbiere di Siviglia (Rossini)
> 16 Tosca (Puccini)
> 19 Salome (Strauss)
> 20 Lucia di Lammermoor (Donizetti)
> have all fallen from the top 20


I'm curious about people's opinions on which list they like more. So far at least.


----------



## GreenMamba

Faustian said:


> I'm curious about people's opinions on which list they like more. So far at least.


It probably rigs the game to ask this question among those voting on this list.

I do think we have more participation this time (could be wrong), but it seems like we had more voters for 11-20 than 1-10.


----------



## Albert7

Because of the difficulty of finding recordings for the works I nommed, I made it easier for those to listen to the works if I list the works here for them.

Here you go:

1) Neither - Morton Feldman






2) Das Mädchen mit den Schwefelhölzern - Helmut Lachenmann





 (full version in concert format)

3) The Death of Klinghoffer - John Adams






4) L'Amour de loin - Kaija Saariaho






5) Saint François d'Assise - Olivier Messiaen





 (first of various parts which others are on YT)


----------



## Albert7

6) The Cave - Steve Reich






7) Moses und Aron - Arnold Schoenberg






8) Licht (or LICHT) - Karlheinz Stockhausen





 (one of many parts available on YT)

9) The Minotaur - Harrison Birtwistle





 (excerpt but available on DVD)

10) Anna Nicole - Mark Anthony Turnage





 (excerpt but available on DVD)


----------



## Amara

I asked this in the Opera forum, so if you already answered there, no need to repeat, but I thought maybe some people here haven't seen that thread so I'd ask again.

To the people voting in this forum, I'm curious as to how many operas you have seen/heard in total? I'm also curious as to your preferred form of experiencing opera; do you mostly see them (whether live or on DVD/streaming), or do you mostly listen to audio recordings only?

I've seen or heard 75 in total, mostly from viewing experiences on DVD and the Met HD.

I also wonder what your favorite style or period of opera is. I tend to favor bel canto.


----------



## Trout

For anyone still curious, I've updated that table showing the changes between the two opera lists.


OperaNew Rank​Old Rank​Delta​Wagner: Der Ring des Nibelungen110Mozart: Don Giovanni264Wagner: Tristan und Isolde32-1Mozart: Le nozze di Figaro43-1Verdi: Don Carlos52520Mozart: Die Zauberflöte6115Debussy: Pelléas et Mélisande75346Berg: Wozzeck81810Monteverdi: L'Orfeo92920Bartók: Bluebeard's Castle106252Mozart: Così fan tutte11176Wagner: Parsifal12131Verdi: Otello13152Wagner: Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg1410-4Bizet: Carmen1512-3Verdi: La traviata167-9Puccini: La bohème178-9Verdi: Rigoletto18268Puccini: Madama Butterfly194526Strauss: Der Rosenkavalier209-11Rossini: Il barbiere di Siviglia2114-7Wagner: Lohengrin2221-1Mussorgsky: Boris Godunov23329Bellini: Norma24317Donizetti: Lucia di Lammermoor2520-5Britten: Peter Grimes265024Puccini: Tosca2716-11Schoenberg: Moses und Aron28302Puccini: Turandot294415Tchaikovsky: Eugene Onegin3022-8Verdi: Aida3123-8Strauss: Salome3219-13Rossini: La Cenerentola336734Beethoven: Fidelio3433-1Gershwin: Porgy and Bess35383Verdi: Il trovatore364812Puccini: La fanciulla del West3735-2Wagner: Der fliegende Holländer38424Saariaho: L'Amour de loin397435Offenbach: Les contes d'Hoffmann4024-16Gounod: Faust415716Handel: Giulio Cesare424-38Mozart: Die Entführung aus dem Serail43474Wagner: Tannhäuser4428-16Janáček: Jenůfa4536-9Rossini: Guillaume Tell4613387Purcell: Dido and Aeneas4734-13Berg: Lulu4839-9Adams: Nixon in China49165116Donizetti: L'elisir d'amore506414Mascagni: Cavalleria Rusticana516312Monteverdi: L'incoronazione di Poppea526513Verdi: Falstaff5343-10Gluck: Orfeo ed Euridice54606Leoncavallo: Pagliacci556914Berlioz: Les Troyens565-51Weber: Der Freischütz57669Rameau: Les Indes galantes5846-12Ravel: L'enfant et les sortilèges598728Messiaen: Saint François d'Assise6015898Strauss: Elektra6127-34Puccini: Il trittico62708Stravinsky: The Rake's Progress6359-4Mozart: Idomeneo6461-3Britten: The Turn of the Screw6510742Massenet: Werther669226Shostakovich: Lady Macbeth6755-12Dvořák: Rusalka68735Smetana: The Bartered Bride6941-28Ligeti: Le grand macabre70209139Janáček: The Cunning Little Vixen718211Verdi: Un ballo in maschera72797Poulenc: Dialogues des carmélites7310532Bellini: La sonnambula748612Boito: Mefistofele7513156Glass: Satyagraha76250174Glass: Einstein on the Beach77267190Rossini: L'italiana in Algeri789012Verdi: La forza del destino7976-3Mussorgsky: Khovanshchina8010929

Biggest gainers:

Glass: Einstein on the Beach+190Glass: Satyagraha+174Ligeti: Le grand macabre+139Adams: Nixon in China+116Messiaen: Saint François d'Assise+98Rossini: Guillaume Tell+87Boito: Mefistofele+56Bartók: Bluebeard's Castle+52Debussy: Pelléas et Mélisande+46Britten: The Turn of the Screw+42Saariaho: L'Amour de loin+35Rossini: La Cenerentola+34Poulenc: Dialogues des carmélites+32

Biggest losers:

Berlioz: Les Troyens-51Handel: Giulio Cesare-38Strauss: Elektra-34Smetana: The Bartered Bride-28

Notable absences from Old List:

Prokofiev: War and Peace#37Handel: Ariodante#40Verdi: Simon Boccanegra#49Strauss: Ariadne auf Naxos#51Massenet: Manon#52Berlioz: La Damnation de Faust#54Handel: Alcina#56Prokofiev: The Love for Three Oranges#58Humperdinck: Hänsel und Gretel#68

All works in the New List so far have been in the original list of 272 operas.


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## Skilmarilion

Trout said:


> For anyone still curious, I've updated that table showing the changes between the two opera lists.
> ...


That is some awesome work. :tiphat:


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## Faustian

Now that we're getting close to completing the top 100, I guess we should discuss whether to stop there or to continue on. I was planning on ending the project at that point, as I feel like 100 is a good solid number and seems to kind of be the "magic" number for lists like this anyways. However, if others have a strong urge to continue on I wouldn't be opposed.


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## Figleaf

Faustian said:


> Now that we're getting close to completing the top 100, I guess we should discuss whether to stop there or to continue on. I was planning on ending the project at that point, as I feel like 100 is a good solid number and seems to kind of be the "magic" number for lists like this anyways. However, if others have a strong urge to continue on I wouldn't be opposed.


We're not stopping until all my choices make the list, dammit! I don't care if we get to opera number 264,756,976 before it happens!


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## Nereffid

Just comparing the number of nominations for operas that made it onto the list in recent rounds:

Round 6: one 9, six 8s, one 7, two 6s.
Round 7: two 8s, five 7s, three 6s.
Round 8: one 10, one 9, three 7s, four 6s, one 5.
Round 9: one 9, one 8, three 7s, two 6s, three 5s.

As you might expect, the consensus is getting weaker as the "obvious" works get enshrined, so the question that needs to be asked is, what's the minimum level of support an opera should have for it to merit inclusion?

I'd say 10 rounds is probably enough, though you could probably go to 11 or 12 with meaningful levels of support.


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## Amara

Thanks Faustian for your work. Thanks also Trout for the cool analysis.

Personally I would love to see the list continue for as long as possible, partly so that we can keep comparing it to the old list.


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## Faustian

Amara said:


> Thanks Faustian for your work. Thanks also Trout for the cool analysis.
> 
> Personally I would love to see the list continue for as long as possible, partly so that we can keep comparing it to the old list.


It's been a lot of fun!

I think like Nereffid pointed out, the biggest question is if we go on are we going to have enough participation and enough consensus to come up with meaningful results? If we get to a point where works are getting in on only 2 or 3 nominations, then ranking them becomes kind of pointless.


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## Easy Goer

If it makes sense I would like continue. It's been fun. Thanks for the effort Faustian.


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## Sloe

Nereffid said:


> Just comparing the number of nominations for operas that made it onto the list in recent rounds:
> 
> Round 6: one 9, six 8s, one 7, two 6s.
> Round 7: two 8s, five 7s, three 6s.
> Round 8: one 10, one 9, three 7s, four 6s, one 5.
> Round 9: one 9, one 8, three 7s, two 6s, three 5s.
> 
> As you might expect, the consensus is getting weaker as the "obvious" works get enshrined, so the question that needs to be asked is, what's the minimum level of support an opera should have for it to merit inclusion?
> 
> I'd say 10 rounds is probably enough, though you could probably go to 11 or 12 with meaningful levels of support.


They still get several nominations and there are also several rather well known and relatively popular operas that have not been nominated yet.


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## Belowpar

I would favour an amended approach after the top 100. To me saying X is at 102 and Y is not so good at 108 is fairly meaningless. So just go with the next groupings i.e. continue as before but eliminate the second round of voting. For those who like no's they can have 10 tied at 101,111,121 etc.


BTW Verdi is still getting a bum deal. How do I arrange a recount?


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## Faustian

Belowpar said:


> I would favour an amended approach after the top 100. To me saying X is at 102 and Y is not so good at 108 is fairly meaningless. So just go with the next groupings i.e. continue as before but eliminate the second round of voting. For those who like no's they can have 10 tied at 101,111,121 etc.
> 
> BTW Verdi is still getting a bum deal. How do I arrange a recount?


Would everyone else prefer this kind of method moving forward after 100? Eliminating the voting round and just focusing on nominations?

My only thought is if we are trying to make a presentable list, we really can't have 5 operas "tied" at position 104 for instance. We would still need some sort of tie-breaker rule in place. But if we do what you're saying we could dispense of rankings all together and have our post-100 honorable mentions grouped in divisions of 10, rather than one large group of honorable mentions listed in alphabetical order? I don't know, just thinking out loud.


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## Amara

Would it be too crazy to just provide a list of the remaining operas from the 2010 list/honorable mentions, and have people rate every opera they've seen on a scale from 1-10?

Then you can just add up which got the most points and rank from there. Ties could be broken with a voting round.


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## mountmccabe

Belowpar said:


> BTW Verdi is still getting a bum deal. How do I arrange a recount?


I wanted to look into this some. Verdi has 9 operas of the 80, more than any other composer. Five of them are ranked higher than the previous list, four ranked lower. The average ranking change is +2. Though I suppose _Simon Boccanegra_ has not yet been ranked on the new list, though it was #49 on the old list. It seems to me that he is doing about as well as on the last list.

Richard Strauss is doing much worse, relative to the old list. His three operas in the top 80 have an average ranking change of -20, and _Ariadne auf Naxos_ has not yet made it, though it was #51 on the old list.

Then there's Handel. He had three in the top 80:
_Giulio Cesare_: 4
_Ariodante_: 40
_Alcina_: 56
And now has one in the top 80, _Giulio Cesare_ at 42. He also had four ranked from 81 to 120, and a total of 15 of the top 200. No matter where we stop he may be the biggest overall loser.

Thanks for putting together the ranking lists, Trout!


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## mountmccabe

Amara said:


> Would it be too crazy to just provide a list of the remaining operas from the 2010 list/honorable mentions, and have people rate every opera they've seen on a scale from 1-10?


Even though all of the new top 80 were in that old top 272 there have been quite a few operas voted for that were not. Some of them have been getting multiple votes and should make it.


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## Amara

Of course we could add to the list. I forgot to mention that.


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## Faustian

mountmccabe said:


> I wanted to look into this some. Verdi has 9 operas of the 80, more than any other composer. Five of them are ranked higher than the previous list, four ranked lower. The average ranking change is +2. Though I suppose _Simon Boccanegra_ has not yet been ranked on the new list, though it was #49 on the old list. It seems to me that he is doing about as well as on the last list.
> 
> Richard Strauss is doing much worse, relative to the old list. His three operas in the top 80 have an average ranking change of -20, and _Ariadne auf Naxos_ has not yet made it, though it was #51 on the old list.
> 
> Then there's Handel. He had three in the top 80:
> _Giulio Cesare_: 4
> _Ariodante_: 40
> _Alcina_: 56
> And now has one in the top 80, _Giulio Cesare_ at 42. He also had four ranked from 81 to 120, and a total of 15 of the top 200. No matter where we stop he may be the biggest overall loser.
> 
> Thanks for putting together the ranking lists, Trout!


Don't forget about Prokofiev, who had 2 operas in the top 80 (War and Peace at #37, The Love for Three Oranges at #58) and so far hasn't made an appearance.


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## Sloe

mountmccabe said:


> I wanted to look into this some. Verdi has 9 operas of the 80, more than any other composer. Five of them are ranked higher than the previous list, four ranked lower. The average ranking change is +2. Though I suppose _Simon Boccanegra_ has not yet been ranked on the new list, though it was #49 on the old list. It seems to me that he is doing about as well as on the last list.


I can´t understand how Simon Boccanegra have not been added to the list. It is a very fine opera not only according to me but to many others also more popular than many other operas that have been added to the list.


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## Faustian

Amara said:


> Would it be too crazy to just provide a list of the remaining operas from the 2010 list/honorable mentions, and have people rate every opera they've seen on a scale from 1-10?
> 
> Then you can just add up which got the most points and rank from there. Ties could be broken with a voting round.


Like mountmccabe pointed out, the issue with that would be coming up with a list to vote on. Rather than using the old list, we could perhaps come up with a list of honorable mentions of works that have been nominated during the voting of the current tournament, and have users rank the ones they have seen.

Ok, in order to keep this straight let's review the options:

1. Follow the original plan and do a honorable mention round after completion of the top 100 where everyone can list up to 20 operas they want to nominate, and in the end all works that have received a vote will be listed alphabetically as our list of honorable mentions.

2. Continue ranking operas the same exact way we have been (possibly shortening the rounds to make it go faster) and commit do 50 at a time and see how things go. So we would do a top 150, and at that point we could reevaluate and see if it was worth continuing on to do a top 200.

3. Following Belowpar's idea, we could get rid of the voting rounds and create a honorable mentions list based on the number of nominations operas receive. So the operas _wouldn't_ be ranked, but we would induct them 10 at a time and list them in that order. So it would be like our "top 100 honorable mentions" or "top 200 honorable mentions" addendum to our top 100 list.

4. Following Amara's idea, create a ranked list of operas by making a list of honorable mentions (following the protocol in #1), and then take it one step further and attempt to _rank_ them by having all participants list the operas they've seen from the list in order of preference, then add up the points.

My personal preference from the above 4 suggestions would probably be #3. But I don't want to decision to be solely up to me. Perhaps everyone could say which idea they would most like to see, and we will go with the most popular choice?


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## mountmccabe

1. 2.
2. 1.
3. 4.
4. 3.


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## Belowpar

Sloe said:


> I can´t understand how Simon Boccanegra have not been added to the list. It is a very fine opera not only according to me but to many others also more popular than many other operas that have been added to the list.


I have had limited on screen time and I'm shocked to see this.

I vespri Siciliani is another of his mature works that is missing. It has problems but such power and strengths that other Opera's only have in the fondest dreams.


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## Belowpar

mountmccabe said:


> I wanted to look into this some. Verdi has 9 operas of the 80, more than any other composer. Five of them are ranked higher than the previous list, four ranked lower. The average ranking change is +2. Though I suppose _Simon Boccanegra_ has not yet been ranked on the new list, though it was #49 on the old list. It seems to me that he is doing about as well as on the last list.
> 
> Richard Strauss is doing much worse, relative to the old list. His three operas in the top 80 have an average ranking change of -20, and _Ariadne auf Naxos_ has not yet made it, though it was #51 on the old list.
> 
> Then there's Handel. He had three in the top 80:
> _Giulio Cesare_: 4
> _Ariodante_: 40
> _Alcina_: 56
> And now has one in the top 80, _Giulio Cesare_ at 42. He also had four ranked from 81 to 120, and a total of 15 of the top 200. No matter where we stop he may be the biggest overall loser.
> 
> Thanks for putting together the ranking lists, Trout!


Thank you but you are applying a Quantative analysis to a Qualitative problem.

I have tried to keep my comments tongue in cheek because I realise I haven't a great experience of ALL the other Opera's voted for and that it is a democratic vote with all the compromises that involves. But my final word on this is after 30+ years of attending and listening to Opera; I believe Verdi composed at least 2 top 10 Opera's, 5 top 25 and all of his mature works sit easily in the top 75. How's that for a Quantative approach?


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## Nereffid

Faustian said:


> Like mountmccabe pointed out, the issue with that would be coming up with a list to vote on. Rather than using the old list, we could perhaps come up with a list of honorable mentions of works that have been nominated during the voting of the current tournament, and have users rank the ones they have seen.
> 
> Ok, in order to keep this straight let's review the options:
> 
> 1. Follow the original plan and do a honorable mention round after completion of the top 100 where everyone can list up to 20 operas they want to nominate, and in the end all works that have received a vote will be listed alphabetically as our list of honorable mentions.
> 
> 2. Continue ranking operas the same exact way we have been (possibly shortening the rounds to make it go faster) and commit do 50 at a time and see how things go. So we would do a top 150, and at that point we could reevaluate and see if it was worth continuing on to do a top 200.
> 
> 3. Following Belowpar's idea, we could get rid of the voting rounds and create a honorable mentions list based on the number of nominations operas receive. So the operas _wouldn't_ be ranked, but we would induct them 10 at a time and list them in that order. So it would be like our "top 100 honorable mentions" or "top 200 honorable mentions" addendum to our top 100 list.
> 
> 4. Following Amara's idea, create a ranked list of operas by making a list of honorable mentions (following the protocol in #1), and then take it one step further and attempt to _rank_ them by having all participants list the operas they've seen from the list in order of preference, then add up the points.
> 
> My personal preference from the above 4 suggestions would probably be #3. But I don't want to decision to be solely up to me. Perhaps everyone could say which idea they would most like to see, and we will go with the most popular choice?


Of those 4, I'd definitely go with no.3.
But with a minor alteration: I don't think we should necessarily have a nice round number like 100 or 200 - instead just keep the process going as long as there's a solid consensus on what should be included. Maybe say that only operas with at least 4 nominations can make the honorable-mentions list.
That's why I don't like no.1 - a single person nominating an opera isn't sufficient grounds for an honorable mention, I think.


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## Mika

Faustian said:


> Like mountmccabe pointed out, the issue with that would be coming up with a list to vote on. Rather than using the old list, we could perhaps come up with a list of honorable mentions of works that have been nominated during the voting of the current tournament, and have users rank the ones they have seen.
> 
> Ok, in order to keep this straight let's review the options:
> 
> 1. Follow the original plan and do a honorable mention round after completion of the top 100 where everyone can list up to 20 operas they want to nominate, and in the end all works that have received a vote will be listed alphabetically as our list of honorable mentions.
> 
> 2. Continue ranking operas the same exact way we have been (possibly shortening the rounds to make it go faster) and commit do 50 at a time and see how things go. So we would do a top 150, and at that point we could reevaluate and see if it was worth continuing on to do a top 200.
> 
> 3. Following Belowpar's idea, we could get rid of the voting rounds and create a honorable mentions list based on the number of nominations operas receive. So the operas _wouldn't_ be ranked, but we would induct them 10 at a time and list them in that order. So it would be like our "top 100 honorable mentions" or "top 200 honorable mentions" addendum to our top 100 list.
> 
> 4. Following Amara's idea, create a ranked list of operas by making a list of honorable mentions (following the protocol in #1), and then take it one step further and attempt to _rank_ them by having all participants list the operas they've seen from the list in order of preference, then add up the points.
> 
> My personal preference from the above 4 suggestions would probably be #3. But I don't want to decision to be solely up to me. Perhaps everyone could say which idea they would most like to see, and we will go with the most popular choice?


I vote for 2. I don't know if we should shorten the process. We should continue as long as we get meaningful number of votes. I don't know yet what could be the definition of meaningful number.


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## DonAlfonso

I think we should continue with the nomination round as is until we drop below some arbitrary number of voters. The number of members having submissions has not dropped a lot over the first 9 rounds:
1 31 
2 32 
3 31 
4 32 
5 30 
6 29 
7 30 
8 30 
9 27 
In the 9th nomination round only 3 nominators failed to list 10 operas and even those had 8 or 9
It's a different story with the voting round. Of the 23 submissions in the last round 9 did not vote the full 5 operas allowed and I think that's only going to get worse. So maybe after 100 we only do the nomination round and rank the operas directly from that.

When we do get to an 'honorable mentions' stage I'd like to suggest that we consider the nominations made in all earlier nomination rounds. Not by the total number of times an opera was nominated but by the number of individual members who had nominated it (I've voted for A Midsummer Night's Dream 9 times now but that would count for only 1 point). If we did that now we'd have the following list with 4 nominations or more (obviously some of the top ones will certainly make it into the 91-100 round):

Opera Composer	Nominators

DIALOGUES DES CARMELITES	Poulenc	13
LADY MACBETH Shostakovich	11
DER FREISCHUTZ Weber	9
L’ENFANT ET LES SORTILEGES	Ravel 9
HÄNSEL UND GRETEL	Humperdinck 8
LE GRANDE MACABRE	Ligeti 8
DIE ENTFUHRUNG AUS DEM SERAIL	Mozart	7
ROMEO ET JULIETTE Gounod	7
DIE SOLDATEN Zimmermann	6
DOKTOR FAUST Busoni 6
L’ITALIANA IN ALGERI Rossini	6
SIMON BOCCANEGRA Verdi	6
DIE DREIGROSCHENOPER Weill	5
DIE TOTE STADT Korngold	5
IPHIGÉNIE EN TAURIDE Gluck 5
LES HUGUENOTS Meyerbeer	5
LES PÊCHEURS DE PERLES Bizet	5
OEDIPUS REX Stravinsky	5
ORPHEE AUX ENFERS Offenbach	5
A MIDSUMMER NIGHT'S DREAM	Britten	4
ALCINA Handel	4
ANNA BOLENA Donizetti	4
ARIADNE AUF NAXOS Strauss	4
I CAPULETI E I MONTECCHI Bellini	4
IL RITORNO D'ULISSE IN PATRIA	Monteverdi	4
LA FILLE DU REGIMENT Donizetti	4
MOBY DICK Heggie	4
NABUCCO Verdi	4
PRINCE IGOR Borodin	4

In all we have 159 opera that have been nominated at least once in the first 9 rounds but have never made the top 10 in any round.


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## Faustian

DonAlfonso said:


> I think we should continue with the nomination round as is until we drop below some arbitrary number of voters. The number of members having submissions has not dropped a lot over the first 9 rounds:
> 1 31
> 2 32
> 3 31
> 4 32
> 5 30
> 6 29
> 7 30
> 8 30
> 9 27
> In the 9th nomination round only 3 nominators failed to list 10 operas and even those had 8 or 9
> It's a different story with the voting round. Of the 23 submissions in the last round 9 did not vote the full 5 operas allowed and I think that's only going to get worse. So maybe after 100 we only do the nomination round and rank the operas directly from that.


Again, my only concern is if we drop the voting round then I'm not sure what method we would use for determining tie-breakers. That's why it seems best to me if we drop the voting round and just do nominations, we should simply dispense with numbers altogether and just say "here are our honorable mentions, listed in order of nominations they received".

However, it's been brought to my attention that for other TC lists run by other members, they found that a helpful solution to the consensus problem was to expand the number of allowed nominations, from up to 10 nominations allowed per voter to 20.

So if we move forward with the ranking past a top 100, I propose continuing in the same way except now allowing 20 nominations per participant every nomination round, and possibly shortening the rounds a little bit to move things along as well.


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## Amara

I like the idea to continue the current system but expand the nominations to 20 for each set of 10 spots.


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## Queen of the Nerds

Amara said:


> I like the idea to continue the current system but expand the nominations to 20 for each set of 10 spots.


Absolutely agree!


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## DonAlfonso

Personally I'm very near the limit of operas that I'm familiar with. Whether the limit stays at 10 or is raised to 20 I won't be able to nominate a full card so I guess I'm indifferent to the method selected.


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## sabrina

Personally I can't understand why Nabucco hasn't made top 100 in operas. I was so happy to discover 2 operas during this voting. One is Stiffelio, Verdi's amazing opera. I don't remember how did it happen that I tried Rossini's Ermione, and I was blown away. I was shocked it is among opera rara, and I could hardly find a DVD on Amazon. Actually it looks that there are only 2 productions available on DVD. I love Rossini and I loved all his operas I've listened to. The same goes for Mozart...And both composers are quite prolific, so I still have operas that did not make the list...


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## Belowpar

I wonder how many are basing their voting on knowing the recorded work vs those who's main impressions are based from the Theatre? Obviously some will have good experience of both, but that's not always possible. 

A case in point for discussion.
IMO (of course  )


The Pearl Fishers has a couple of magical tunes but is a long evening in the Theatre. A top 150 Opera? Sadly not.


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## Faustian

Belowpar said:


> I wonder how many are basing their voting on knowing the recorded work vs those who's main impressions are based from the Theatre? Obviously some will have good experience of both, but that's not always possible.
> 
> A case in point for discussion.
> IMO (of course  )
> 
> The Pearl Fishers has a couple of magical tunes but is a long evening in the Theatre. A top 150 Opera? Sadly not.


An interesting point. I think in general there are differences in how people approach operas; while some view them primarily as theatrical works and appreciate the combination of music and drama, others seem to enjoy them and listen to them mostly for their purely musical content.


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## Sloe

Belowpar said:


> The Pearl Fishers has a couple of magical tunes but is a long evening in the Theatre. A top 150 Opera? Sadly not.


Pearl Fishers is ranked as the 62:nd most performed opera at operabase and is one of the most performed French operas performed more often than Pelleas et Mellisande so it is a relatively popular opera.


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## Amara

Is Handel's Theodora eligible for voting? It made #117 on the previous list.


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## Faustian

Amara said:


> Is Handel's Theodora eligible for voting? It made #117 on the previous list.


Good question. I'd be interested to know the reasoning for its inclusion in the last list. I would lean towards no, because as far as I know its firmly categorized as an oratorio. Sure its been "staged", but so has Messiah. Unless there's a push to include it?


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## Amara

I don't know what the reasoning for including it last time was, so I have no problem with disqualifying it this time since it is an oratorio.


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## DonAlfonso

Now that we have the top 100 I thought I'd see how the composers are making out.
I counted the number of operas each composer has in the top 100 but also calculated a 'score' based on the rankings of each opera. So, for example Wagner get 100 points for The Ring ranking number 1; Mozart 99 for Don Giovanni down to Meyerbeer 1 for Les Hugenots ranking number 100. The results

Composer	Works	Points
Verdi:	12	623
Wagner:	7	573
Mozart:	6	476
Puccini:	6	415
Rossini:	4	226
Strauss:	4	203
Berg: 2	146
Donizetti:	3	146
Monteverdi:	2	141
Britten:	3	128
Bellini:	3	122
Mussorgsky:	2	99
Janácek:	3	98
Debussy:	1	94
Bartok:	1	91
Bizet:	2	88
Schoenberg:	2	77
Tchaikovsky:	1	71
Gounod:	2	70
Beethoven:	1	67
Gershwin:	1	66
Saariaho:	1	62
Offenbach:	1	61
Glass:	3	60
Handel:	1	59
Purcell:	1	54
Adams:	1	52
Gluck:	2	52
Mascagni:	1	50
Massenet:	2	49
Leoncavallo:	1	46
Berlioz:	1	45
Weber:	1	44
Rameau:	1	43
Ravel:	1	42
Messiaen:	1	41
Stravinsky:	1	38
Shostakovich:	1	34
Dvorak:	1	33
Smetana:	1	32
Ligeti:	1	31
Poulenc:	1	28
Boito:	1	26
Giordano:	1	16
Strauss II:	1	15
Borodin:	1	7
Prokofiev:	1	6
Humperdinck:	1	3
Meyerbeer:	1	1


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## Nereffid

Nereffid said:


> Just comparing the number of nominations for operas that made it onto the list in recent rounds:
> 
> Round 6: one 9, six 8s, one 7, two 6s.
> Round 7: two 8s, five 7s, three 6s.
> Round 8: one 10, one 9, three 7s, four 6s, one 5.
> Round 9: one 9, one 8, three 7s, two 6s, three 5s.
> 
> As you might expect, the consensus is getting weaker as the "obvious" works get enshrined, so the question that needs to be asked is, what's the minimum level of support an opera should have for it to merit inclusion?
> 
> I'd say 10 rounds is probably enough, though you could probably go to 11 or 12 with meaningful levels of support.


So here's how it's gone since then:

Round 10: one 8, one 7, three 6s, four 5s (one carried over to next round), two 4s.
Round 11: one carried over from round 10, two 9s, three 8s, four 7s.
Round 12: two 8s, three 7s, five 6s.
Round 13: one 9, one 8, three 7s, five 6s.
Round 14: three 6s, six 5s, one 4.

Round 10 seemed to confirm my scepticism, but then with round 11 and the 20 nominations things perked up again. But the most recent round has seen a big drop-off.
I think there were 23 nominations in round 14, and for a work to get only 4 nominations suggests there just isn't much consensus any more, or at least that significant consensus is no longer necessary.

I think one more round is enough; there's not much left except the ego-massage of seeing a not-actually-popular work that we ourselves like making the list.


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## DonAlfonso

Nereffid said:


> Round 14: three 6s, six 5s, one 4.
> 
> I think there were 23 nominations in round 14, and for a work to get only 4 nominations suggests there just isn't much consensus any more, or at least that significant consensus is no longer necessary.


Also in the voting round for round 14 only 10 of the 24 voters were able to post a full slate of 5 operas from the 10 nominees. A couple (including mine) had just 1 opera they were familiar enough with to vote for.



Nereffid said:


> I think one more round is enough; there's not much left except the ego-massage of seeing a not-actually-popular work that we ourselves like making the list.


And I've just had my ego-massage in round 14


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## Figleaf

GioCar said:


> A recording you would recommend? Thanks


I was going to ask science that question too. I'm new to Oedipe as well, and have heard it twice so far. Before science mentioned the opera, I had assumed, wrongly, that I had heard it years ago, but a thorough search of the back of the cupboard suggests that I must have confused it with something else  - probably Bretan's Luceafarul, the only twentieth century opera by a Romanian composer I have on CD. I found this recording, the only one I've heard, on YouTube- it has an excellent cast of underrated French singers of the period. I haven't seen the libretto yet and don't know whether there are cuts, as there often are with French broadcast recordings of this era. (It's obviously a live recording but I'm assuming it owes its preservation to tapes of a radio broadcast.)






The only Enescu compositions I'd heard before are songs. Oedipe sounds different, less lyrical. There's a bit of _Sprechgesang_, a device I don't like- but only a bit, fortunately. It's quite powerful music. I'd be interested to hear the Electrecord set from the 1960s (probably not available on CD, unless anyone knows differently?) as well as the 1989 recording with Van Dam in the title role. I'm on a serious economy drive until Christmas at least, so I won't be getting either one of them for the foreseeable future!


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## Sloe

Nereffid said:


> I think one more round is enough; there's not much left except the ego-massage of seeing a not-actually-popular work that we ourselves like making the list.


It is the recommended operas list not the most popular operas list. I have discovered some operas from the list and I hope others have too.


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## Figleaf

Sloe said:


> It is the recommended operas list not the most popular operas list. I have discovered some operas from the list and I hope others have too.


I think the list gets _more_ interesting, not less, as the old warhorses are enshrined and people increasingly nominate rarities which I either hadn't heard of, or didn't realise had been recorded. I'm now off to listen to Cinq-Mars, as soon as Reyer's Salammbô has finished downloading. (A belated thank you to Sloe for that link too- it was on the Opera YouTube thread.)

If anyone knows of where a recording of Reyer's opera La Statue might be found, I'd be very grateful! Probably there hasn't been one at all.


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## Sloe

Figleaf said:


> I think the list gets _more_ interesting, not less, as the old warhorses are enshrined and people increasingly nominate rarities which I either hadn't heard of, or didn't realise had been recorded. I'm now off to listen to Cinq-Mars, as soon as Reyer's Salammbô has finished downloading. (A belated thank you to Sloe for that link too- it was on the Opera YouTube thread.)


I hope you like Cinq-Mars you should also thank Nervous Gentleman for uploading and linking to Salammbo in the first place.


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## Nereffid

But would you not agree that as the number of _consensus_ nominations decreases, the list increasingly resembles _a random list of operas_? Which defeats the purpose of a list of _recommendations_.


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## Figleaf

Nereffid said:


> But would you not agree that as the number of _consensus_ nominations decreases, the list increasingly resembles _a random list of operas_? Which defeats the purpose of a list of _recommendations_.


Only if people pick their favourites at random! Anyway, I thought you liked random lists. :devil:


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## Faustian

I'm honestly fine with either continuing or stopping if a majority of others have gotten bored with the project. I wouldn't want to make a commitment to move forward to 200 if a lot of the participants are going to jump ship.

For a little perspective though, a very good portion of the previous 272 Most Recommended operas list was created by just a handful of users. I guess my feeling is that at this stage in the game, with a lot of the most popular works already enshrined, a work receiving 3 or 4 nominations from a group of 20+ voters is still significant enough to place it on the list.


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## science

Faustian said:


> I'm honestly fine with either continuing or stopping if a majority of others have gotten bored with the project. I wouldn't want to make a commitment to move forward to 200 if a lot of the participants are going to jump ship.
> 
> For a little perspective though, a very good portion of the previous 272 Most Recommended operas list was created by just a handful of users. I guess my feeling is that at this stage in the game, with a lot of the most popular works already enshrined, a work receiving 3 or 4 nominations from a group of 20+ voters is still significant enough to place it on the list.


I don't remember if I said this before, but as long as there is an opera or two that I like that hasn't been enshrined, and you are willing to do the work, I'm willing to keep voting.


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## Trout

While I am no longer directly participating, I hope continuing to inundate this thread with statistics shall suffice as a contribution.


OperaNew Rank​Old Rank​Delta​Wagner: Der Ring des Nibelungen110Mozart: Don Giovanni264Wagner: Tristan und Isolde32-1Mozart: Le nozze di Figaro43-1Verdi: Don Carlos52520Mozart: Die Zauberflöte6115Debussy: Pelléas et Mélisande75346Berg: Wozzeck81810Monteverdi: L'Orfeo92920Bartók: Bluebeard's Castle106252Mozart: Così fan tutte11176Wagner: Parsifal12131Verdi: Otello13152Wagner: Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg1410-4Bizet: Carmen1512-3Verdi: La traviata167-9Puccini: La bohème178-9Verdi: Rigoletto18268Puccini: Madama Butterfly194526Strauss: Der Rosenkavalier209-11Rossini: Il barbiere di Siviglia2114-7Wagner: Lohengrin2221-1Mussorgsky: Boris Godunov23329Bellini: Norma24317Donizetti: Lucia di Lammermoor2520-5Britten: Peter Grimes265024Puccini: Tosca2716-11Schoenberg: Moses und Aron28302Puccini: Turandot294415Tchaikovsky: Eugene Onegin3022-8Verdi: Aida3123-8Strauss: Salome3219-13Rossini: La Cenerentola336734Beethoven: Fidelio3433-1Gershwin: Porgy and Bess35383Verdi: Il trovatore364812Puccini: La fanciulla del West3735-2Wagner: Der fliegende Holländer38424Saariaho: L'Amour de loin397435Offenbach: Les contes d'Hoffmann4024-16Gounod: Faust415716Handel: Giulio Cesare424-38Mozart: Die Entführung aus dem Serail43474Wagner: Tannhäuser4428-16Janáček: Jenůfa4536-9Rossini: Guillaume Tell4613387Purcell: Dido and Aeneas4734-13Berg: Lulu4839-9Adams: Nixon in China49165116Donizetti: L'elisir d'amore506414Mascagni: Cavalleria Rusticana516312Monteverdi: L'incoronazione di Poppea526513Verdi: Falstaff5343-10Gluck: Orfeo ed Euridice54606Leoncavallo: Pagliacci556914Berlioz: Les Troyens565-51Weber: Der Freischütz57669Rameau: Les Indes galantes5846-12Ravel: L'enfant et les sortilèges598728Messiaen: Saint François d'Assise6015898Strauss: Elektra6127-34Puccini: Il trittico62708Stravinsky: The Rake's Progress6359-4Mozart: Idomeneo6461-3Britten: The Turn of the Screw6510742Massenet: Werther669226Shostakovich: Lady Macbeth6755-12Dvořák: Rusalka68735Smetana: The Bartered Bride6941-28Ligeti: Le grand macabre70209139Janáček: The Cunning Little Vixen718211Verdi: Un ballo in maschera72797Poulenc: Dialogues des carmélites7310532Bellini: La sonnambula748612Boito: Mefistofele7513156Glass: Satyagraha76250174Glass: Einstein on the Beach77267190Rossini: L'italiana in Algeri789012Verdi: La forza del destino*7976-3Mussorgsky: Khovanshchina8010929Verdi: Macbeth81843Donizetti: Don Pasquale8280-2Bellini: I puritani8375-8Britten: Billy Budd8411026Giordano: Andrea Chénier85916Strauss II: Die Fledermaus86NRN/AMassenet: Manon8752-35Strauss: Die Frau ohne Schatten8810315Janáček: From the House of the Dead8913243Glass: Akhnaten90238148Gounod: Roméo et Juliette9178-13Verdi: Simon Boccanegra9249-43Verdi: Nabucco9312734Borodin: Prince Igor9412531Prokofiev: The Fiery Angel9511520Gluck: Iphigénie en Tauride9614549Schoenberg: Erwartung97199102Humperdinck: Hänsel und Gretel9868-30Bizet: Les pêcheurs de perles991089Meyerbeer: Les Huguenots10012828Mozart: La clemenza di Tito10181-20Donizetti: La fille du régiment10277-25Strauss: Ariadne auf Naxos10351-52Donizetti: Maria Stuarda10412420Puccini: La rondine10585-20Stravinsky: Oedipus Rex10618377Rameau: Castor et Pollux10711811Prokofiev: L'amour des trois oranges10858-50Stockhausen: Licht109260151Shostakovich: The Nose11013424Puccini: Manon Lescaut111101-10Donizetti: Anna Bolena11217563Saint-Saëns: Samson et Dalila11371-42Weill: Die Dreigroschenoper11416248Tchaikovsky: The Queen of Spades11597-18Janáček: Káťa Kabanová11615741Delibes: Lakmé117106-11Britten: Death in Venice1181235Rossini: La donna del lago11919879Adès: The Tempest120254134Korngold: Die tote Stadt12114120Berlioz: La damnation de Faust12254-68Handel: Alcina12356-67Prokofiev: War and Peace12437-87Adams: The Death of Klinghoffer125243118Offenbach: Orphée aux enfers126NRN/ABellini: I Capuleti e i Montecchi12794-33Cilea: Adriana Lecouvreur12883-45Zimmermann: Die Soldaten12921990Monteverdi: Il ritorno d'Ulisse in patria130102-28Rimsky-Korsakov: Sadko13114817Rossini: Le comte Ory1321408Massenet: Thaïs133119-14Falla: La vida breve13422389Berlioz: Benvenuto Cellini1351361Strauss: Capriccio13672-64Reimann: Lear137NRN/AAdams: Doctor Atomic138NRN/ABritten: A Midsummer Night's Dream13922788Halévy: La Juive1401477Verdi: Ernani14196-45Tchaikovsky: Iolanta14223391Cherubini: Médée14321168Busoni: Doktor Faust144112-32Hindemith: Mathis der Maler14521267Thomas: Mignon14698-48Berlioz: Béatrice et Bénédict14717932Lully: Armide14817123Strauss: Arabella14995-54Nono: Prometeo150NRN/A

*Biggest Gainers:*

Strauss II: Die FledermausN/AOffenbach: Orphée aux enfersN/AReimann: LearN/AAdams: Doctor AtomicN/ANono: PrometeoN/AGlass: Einstein on the Beach190Glass: Satyagraha174Stockhausen: Licht151Glass: Akhnaten148Ligeti: Le grand macabre139Adès: The Tempest134Adams: The Death of Klinghoffer118Adams: Nixon in China116Schoenberg: Erwartung102Messiaen: Saint François d'Assise98Tchaikovsky: Iolanta91Zimmermann: Die Soldaten90Falla: La vida breve89Britten: A Midsummer Night's Dream88Rossini: Guillaume Tell87Rossini: La donna del lago79Stravinsky: Oedipus Rex77Cherubini: Médée68Hindemith: Mathis der Maler67Donizetti: Anna Bolena63Boito: Mefistofele56Bartók: Bluebeard's Castle52

*Biggest Losers:*

Prokofiev: War and Peace-87Berlioz: La damnation de Faust-68Handel: Alcina-67Strauss: Capriccio-64Strauss: Arabella-54Strauss: Ariadne auf Naxos-52Berlioz: Les Troyens-51Prokofiev: L'amour des trois oranges-50Thomas: Mignon-48Cilea: Adriana Lecouvreur-45Verdi: Ernani-45Verdi: Simon Boccanegra-43Saint-Saëns: Samson et Dalila-42Handel: Giulio Cesare-38Massenet: Manon-35Strauss: Elektra-34Bellini: I Capuleti e i Montecchi-33Busoni: Doktor Faust-32

*Old List Absences:*

OperaOld Rank​Handel: Ariodante40Weber: Euryanthe88Rimsky-Korsakov: The Golden Cockerel89Donizetti: Roberto Devereux93Puccini: Suor Angelica99Handel: Orlando100Handel: Hercules104Handel: Rinaldo111Verdi: Luisa Miller113Schreker: Die Gezeichneten114Gluck: Alceste116Handel: Theodora117Rameau: Les Boreades120Purcell: The Fairy Queen121Handel: Serse122Verdi: I Vespri Siciliani126Stravinsky: Le Rossignol129Charpentier: Medée130Mozart: Il Re Pastore135Bellini: Beatrice di Tenda137Prokofiev: Betrothal in a Monastery138Glinka: Ruslan and Lyudmila139Puccini: Il Tabarro142Rossini: Il Viaggio a Reims143Janáček: The Makropulos Case144Verdi: Attila146Handel: Acis and Galatea149Rossini: Il Turco in Italia150

*Opera Composer Deltas:*

Composer# of Operas​Sum of Deltas​Delta/Work​Glass3512170.6667Adams3^369123Rossini6**20325.375Britten518537Offenbach2^13165.5Schoenberg210452Janáček4*7915.8Tchaikovsky36521.6667Stravinsky2*5117Mussorgsky23819Gluck2*206.6667Shostakovich2126Donizetti6*71Bizet263Monteverdi351.6667Gounod231.5Berg210.5Wagner7-17-2.4286Mozart7*-21-2.625Massenet3-23-7.6667Rameau2*-32-10.6667Bellini5-36-7.2Purcell1*-43-21.5Rimsky-Korsakov1*-45-22.5Weber1*-54-27Puccini8**-65-6.5Berlioz4-86-21.5Verdi13***-103-6.4375Prokofiev3*-130-32.5Strauss7-213-30.4286Handel2*******-429-47.6667
Each * denotes a composer's opera in the old 150 operas not yet listed.
Each ^ denotes a composer's opera on the new list, but not the old.


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## Amara

Bumping this thread for Trout's wonderful charts. I'd be interested in seeing the number of different composers that made the Top 200.


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## Skilmarilion

Delta baby. :tiphat:


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