# Wagnerian influence over younger generation



## deprofundis (Apr 25, 2014)

What is Wagnerian but more contemporary, perhaps heavier than Wagner and less know
someone more or less tonal, someone that did variation on Wagner walkyries.

Name Wagner most promissing students, lesser know.

I know the man has terrible reputation for behing a biggot or biggoted* but im not here to talk about that*, but his music and his influence over a younger  generation, new obscure composer.

Modern composers influence by him?

:tiphat:


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Wagner never had any pupils in the strict sense of the term , but his influence on so many composers was enormous .
Bruckner,Mahler, Richard Strauss , Schoenberg are only a few of the most famous .
Even though Debussy claimed to be rebelling against Wagnerism , he was greatly influenced by Wagner . 
Music in the 20th century would not have developed in the way it did without Wagner . You could write a book on this subject .
Wagner's influence was so all pervasive it caused other composers such as Stravinsky , to rebel against it .
To some composers , Wagner was the musical antichrist !


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## drpraetorus (Aug 9, 2012)

Many of the best known film composers are very Wagnerian. For example Korngold, Steiner, Williams, Horner, etc. Just go to the movies and listen to the score. You'll hear Wagner filtered through the composer.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Delius is a composer deeply influenced by Wagner.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

One could argue that Stockhausen's totality vision in his series Licht had its kernel in Wagner's operas.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

The most contemporary one that comes to mind is Howard Shore and his soundtrack to Lord of the Rings. He admitted to being inspired by Wagner.


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## Loge (Oct 30, 2014)

Han Zimmer's soundtrack for Gladiator has a bit of Wagner in it. Advance this clip to the 7:30 mark and you can hear Siegfried's Funeral March.






Compare with the original






"My name is Maximus Decimus Meridius, commander of the Armies of the North, General of the Felix Legions and loyal servant to the TRUE emperor, Marcus Aurelius. Father to a murdered son, husband to a murdered wife. And I will have my vengeance, in this life or the next."


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Loge said:


> Han Zimmer's soundtrack for _Gladiator_ has a bit of Wagner in it. Advance this clip to the 7:30 mark and you can hear Siegfried's Funeral March.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Right on!

Zimmer's such a hack.

I love parts of the_ Gladiator _soundtrack_ because_ it isn't Zimmer: the cavalry charge with Russell Crowe at the beginning of the film in Germania is pure "Mars Bringer of War" from _The Planets_. The first big shots of the Colisseum are right out of the_ Ring_-- note-for-note. I wish I could remember the opera. I think the plagiarisms are from _Gotterdammerung_.

So yeah, what's 'good' in this score isn't original; and what's 'original' isn't good.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Loge said:


> Han Zimmer's soundtrack for Gladiator has a bit of Wagner in it. Advance this clip to the 7:30 mark and you can hear Siegfried's Funeral March.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh, don't remind me. The historical buff in me hated that film so so much.


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## Loge (Oct 30, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Right on!
> 
> Zimmer's such a hack.
> 
> ...


It may not be Zimmer's fault entirely. You know how many soundtracks are made?

The director cuts the film to a a temp track of classical music pieces, and then invites a composer in to make a soundtrack that is similar, but not the same but more cohesive than the temp track.

This is why Star Wars sounds similar to Korngold, Dvorak, Stravinsky and Holst', they were on the original temp track. For a good example look on youtube for the unused 2001 Space Odyssey soundtrack by Alex North it has similarities with the original temp track used in the final film.

Anyway to make your blood boil more listen to this track from Gladiator. It was ripped off from Prokofiev's Lieutenant Kijé.






Compare with the original, but then again it was probably on the temp track.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Right on!
> 
> Zimmer's such a hack.
> 
> ...


Right on indeed. Notice that at the moment he stops playing around with Wagner's material and writes his own tune, he's as trite as hell.

But the plagiarism is so blatant I wish I held the copyright so I could sue on Wagner's behalf!


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2014)

Wow. 

You guys! 

Get you off the modernist threads and on to something else, and you all make the same arguments us unreasonable and irrational modernists make. You make the same arguments about the same phenomenon, without any sense of contradiction.

Fan. Tas. Tic.

Go back to the Deutscher thread now. See? You're making SeptimalTritone's points. You're making Violadude's points. You're making Mahlerian's points. Why, you're even making my points, points that you savage over and over again in that other thread, long after the equine fauna have long since deceased.

But here? 

Blithely making them yourselves, here, as if these were just self-evident truths about music.

Which, come to think of it, they are!


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## Loge (Oct 30, 2014)

OK here is another one, Bernard Herrmann, his soundtrack to Vertigo was influenced by Wagner's Tristan und Isolde. However he admitted this, so it is more inspired by. I still love this soundtrack though, one of the best.

So here is Vertigo






Compare and constrast with Wagner's prelude to Tristan und Isolde.


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

some guy said:


> Wow.
> 
> You guys!
> 
> ...


Ahem, let's see here. Woodduck and Marschallin state that the unoriginal parts are good while the original parts are trite. How does that even come remotely close to proving your points? Or contradict what they've already said? lol, that's a real head-scratcher. Marschallin said she enjoyed the parts that were reminiscent of Wagner/Holst, she found enjoyment in a film composer that used the "dead style" of Wagner and Holst and you think this proves your point? (!!) 

Secondly, for the umpteenth time, nobody (in this thread or the other thread) advocated the use of pure imitation. I repeat, in the case that it doesn't get through, nobody has advocated the use of _pure _imitation. Here's the quote for your convenience.



Woodduck said:


> ... if anyone thinks I've advocated that kind of abject second-hand squashing of an artist's creative instincts, he's been listening to my critics and not to me. *All I've argued for is the right of an artist to turn for inspiration and ideas anywhere he chooses*, including art of the past and art which opposes or resists what are generally considered major trends or directions of his own era


Sure, he doesn't _advocate_ it for the sake of creativity, but the fact that Marschallin had no problems enjoying a composer that did use a "dead style" (i.e., a composer who was free to compose what he wanted) demonstrates the above sentence in bold. A composer can turn for inspiration and ideas anywhere he chooses.


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

Wrong Thread! Sorry!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

some guy said:


> Wow.
> 
> You guys!
> 
> ...


Not so fast. No victory laps just yet. 

I'm supposing that what you're saying here is that Zimmer is copying from composers of the past, and is therefore mediocre, whereas Holst and Wagner wrote contemporary music in their day and are therefore better than Zimmerman?

Has it occurred to you that the reason Holst and Wagner are better is that they're, ahhh - better composers?

What we actually have here is a composer of no great talent blatantly ripping off a couple of composers of very great, and more than great, talent - and_ the best parts of his music are the parts that not only mimic, but pilfer, composers of the past!_

Where Zimmer _doesn't_ copy past composers, and writes his own original stuff, we get movie music mediocrity. As the Marschallin puts it, "what's 'good' in this score isn't original; and what's 'original' isn't good."

Sorry, but if this demonstrates anything, other than that Zimmer is a hack and Holst and Wagner are geniuses, it demonstrates _exactly the opposite__ of what you think it does. _

It might even be taken to suggest that composers who are not geniuses would do well to mimic those who are. That might be a way for them to learn something - and even if they never graduate to the big leagues and do anything original of importance, they might at least have absorbed some knowhow and done something competent along the way. (Of course in some cases nothing will help.)

The fact that none of your fanclub who gave you "likes" noticed that your deduction was exactly back-arsewards may also demonstrate something, but I'll leave that for you and them to figure out.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Not so fast. No victory laps just yet.
> 
> I'm supposing that what you're saying here is that Zimmer is copying from composers of the past, and is therefore mediocre, whereas Holst and Wagner wrote contemporary music in their day and are therefore better than Zimmerman?
> 
> ...


"Envy is more implacable than hatred."

- La Rochefoucauld,_ Maxims_


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I can't see why people are getting so upset because people are influenced by Wagner or even copy bits of his music. We know that Wagner was influenced by his father in law, Liszt, and that some of his most famous innovations (e.g. the Tristan chord) actually are found in Liszt's music. Now there is nothing wrong with this of course when a composer adds his own genius and builds upon what has already gone before. Every great composer has done it so why the great fuss?


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## Guest (Nov 28, 2014)

DiesIraeVIX said:


> Ahem, let's see here.


I enjoy cherries as much as anyone.

The picking part, um, not so much.

But I recognize good cherry picking when I see it, and I salute it.

DavidA,

The Tristan chord comes out of Berlioz' Romeo et Juliette symphony, not out of Liszt. Liszt may have used that chord himself. I don't know. I've never heard it in any of his pieces, but I don't listen to Liszt all that much. Wagner definitely got it from the Berlioz symphony, though.


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

some guy said:


> I enjoy cherries as much as anyone.
> 
> The picking part, um, not so much.
> 
> But I recognize good cherry picking when I see it, and I salute it.


Oh my, the irony! It hurts.

That is, considering your numerous posts cherry picking single sentences with cute single sentence replies (which circumvent the actual point)

Well played, sir. As a lover of Irony (as all literature lovers usually are) this made my Black Friday so much brighter. 

The cherry on top is you replying to my post with a cherry pick! I actually addressed what was said, as Woodduck already wrote, they demonstrated precisely the opposite of what you think. Which is exactly what I said in my reply. Hmm, I'm wondering who actually cherry picked and who addressed the actual topic.


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## matsoljare (Jul 28, 2008)

It always bothered me that history has been so unkind to the composers directly influenced by Wagner. Besides Bruckner, and a few composers only known in their home countries (Stenhammar in Sweden for example) it seems the classical establishment is pretty much dead set against the Wagnerians. Sure there has to be some works from his followers that are worth performing today?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

matsoljare said:


> It always bothered me that history has been so unkind to the composers directly influenced by Wagner. Besides Bruckner, and a few composers only known in their home countries (Stenhammar in Sweden for example) it seems the classical establishment is pretty much dead set against the Wagnerians. Sure there has to be some works from his followers that are worth performing today?


Which composers are you thinking of to whom history has been unkind? I would almost be prepared to say that most important composers In the generation after Wagner were influenced by him to one degree or another. Perhaps your word "directly" is the key?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> I can't see why people are getting so upset because people are influenced by Wagner or even copy bits of his music. We know that Wagner was influenced by his father in law, Liszt, and that some of his most famous innovations (e.g. the Tristan chord) actually are found in Liszt's music. Now there is nothing wrong with this of course when a composer adds his own genius and builds upon what has already gone before. Every great composer has done it so why the great fuss?


I don't see where anyone here is "so upset" about anything. I know that composers' influence upon each other has never upset me; influence, as you say, seems rather universal. My remark about suing on Wagner's behalf was meant to be amusing. Guess I should have inserted an emoticon. :lol:

But here's my major point: Wagner did not invent the Tristan chord. No one has ever claimed that he did. His great innovation lay in how he used it: placing it at the start of a piece, following a three note figure whose apparent tonal implications don't prepare our ears for it, resolving it into a dominant seventh which simply hangs unresolved, then after a pause repeating the same ambiguous gesture at a higher pitch level - and so on. The point is not the chord itself - which, once you analyze its position in the work, turns out to be an augmented sixth with an appoggiatura moving to the dominant of A-minor/C-major, the basic key of the prelude as a whole (sorry to be technical) - but the disorienting way in which it's used, prior to the establishment of a tonal context. Within more conventional contexts, other composers have used the chord, and whether Wagner was inspired to give it a remarkable new function by anyone in particular we have no way of knowing. In any event it wasn't the chord as such, but the way Wagner used it, which turned the tide of musical history. It would be silly to underestimate the significance of this by pointing out that Wagner "got the chord from someone else." The great ones stole from each other all the time; as Stravinsky (allegedly) said: "Lesser artists borrow; great ones steal." The great ones are not diminished thereby.

No fuss here. Just some remarks about a mediocre composer ripping off a couple of great ones. Zimmer, it's pretty obvious, need have no fear of being diminished!


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