# The relationship between Music and Culture



## Forss (May 12, 2017)

Mahler supposedly once said to Schönberg, due to the latter's technique-oriented teaching method: "But Schönberg, what's all this? Let the young people who are studying with you read Dostoevsky—that's more important than counterpoint." Webern apparently then got to his feet and like som hesitant schoolboy said: "But we've got Strindberg."

Now, I naturally approve of Webern's answer (as I see Strindberg, too, as a worthy authority on Life), but one still understands Mahler's sentiment.

Is an overall understanding of Culture (e.g. of Europe's intellectual history) a necessity for becoming a pioneering composer? I would really like to hear what you think on this matter. (I'm on Mahler's side.)


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

I don't think an understanding of culture relates to music as much as an understanding of the language of that culture. Bernstein's talk on this (you can find something on youtube probably) is very interesting- how the language affects the music. French has a silky not accented language whereas Czech and Eastern Europe are accented on the first syllable, affecting the music.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Tchaikov6 said:


> I don't think an understanding of culture relates to music as much as an understanding of the language of that culture. Bernstein's talk on this (you can find something on youtube probably) is very interesting- how the language affects the music. French has a silky not accented language whereas Czech and Eastern Europe are accented on the first syllable, affecting the music.


It is interesting as an idea, but I think it is the least compelling and thought out part of his lectures. It seems to me that he has squeezed an interpretation of the languages into what he feels is the essence of the music, and not really the other way around.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

JAS said:


> It is interesting as an idea, but I think it is the least compelling and thought out part of his lectures. It seems to me that he has squeezed an interpretation of the languages into what he feels is the essence of the music, and not really the other way around.


True, Bernstein had better tlectures... but I still think it has some truth and meaning.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Forss said:


> Is an overall understanding of Culture (e.g. of Europe's intellectual history) a necessity for becoming a pioneering composer?


Perhaps it is, but without counterpoint you're not going to get very far as classical composer.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Literature might help a composer figure out what ideas and emotions he wants to express. But he needs to study compositional technique in order to communicate those ideas in a clear and effective manner. In other words: literature gives ideas for the content of a work, while contrapuntal studies help with the form.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I'm reminded that Schoenberg was himself quite a painter, if not wholly as adventurous on canvas as on score paper. But he was quite an expressionist.



























I suspect this suggests that Schoenberg followed Mahler's inclination in his personal artistic philosophy. Of course, it is also necessary to study the nuts and bolts of one's craft, too. And Mahler knew this also. I'm sure he studied Beethoven scores astutely. Could he have composed that remarkable final movement of the Third Symphony from merely reading Dostoevsky?


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

To be a Classical Composer presumably requires some years of study and discipline. Presumably most people engaged in such activity will have also had exposure to other aspects of culture in their upbringing. So I think that the relationship between culture and music is more coincidental than a necessity


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## Totenfeier (Mar 11, 2016)

Well, everybody _should_ read Dostoevsky as a matter of course, but what Mahler may have been getting at is that a musician must have something human worth expressing - that _needs_ expression - in the music, or what's the point of just finger exercises and breath control? Remember his dictum that "if a composer could say what he had to say in words, he wouldn't need music?" Mahler knew that one must strive to _be_ human before one could aspire to humansong.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Beethoven admired Goethe and read his works as a youth and also was inspired by him to compose the Incidental Music to Egmont.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

It's a good point that it's more about being a _human being_ and then a composer, because you have something to say, rather than making music an expression of cultural truths. But I believe that one can only become a human being when immersing oneself in one's own culture. So culture becomes essential to a composer, anyway!


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## Forss (May 12, 2017)

I completely agree with you, Totenfeier! That is why, whenever I listen to, say, Beethoven's 9th Symphony, I want to embrace him and say, "You are a _real_ human being!"


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