# Contest - must farfetched opera plot



## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

I mean - most. The title of this thread has a typo. Moderators, help!

OK, anyway.

Some rather ridiculous stuff has been set to sublime music, in opera history.
Let's laugh a little at our beloved operas' extreme plots.
What are your candidates for most outrageous libretto?

I have a few in mind.

Ernani...
Der Freischutz...
La Rondine (first version)...
Ariadne auf Naxos...
Manon Lescault...
Platee...

Any other nominations? Then later we could vote for the most outrageous one.:lol:


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

*Pavarotti in scary form*

I'm watching from MetPlayer Pavarotti's Ernani, from 1983. It's impressive how me makes something acceptable and even convincing of this opera with such an improbable plot, just by singing it so well.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

La Gazza Ladra? I went to a concert tonight in which they did the overture and the conductor told us the plot... seemed pretty weird to me.


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## scytheavatar (Aug 27, 2009)

The most farfetched plot I have seen is probably Così fan tutte, it's also probably the most sexist opera I have ever seen.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

scytheavatar said:


> The most farfetched plot I have seen is probably Così fan tutte, it's also probably the most sexist opera I have ever seen.


Good one. I wonder how those two sisters couldn't recognize their fiances.
I think Lohengrin is even more sexist.
By the way Die Zauberflote is pretty ridiculous too.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

World Violist said:


> La Gazza Ladra? I went to a concert tonight in which they did the overture and the conductor told us the plot... seemed pretty weird to me.


Not one of the worst offenders, methinks.
La Sonnambula is pretty bad too.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Two that I haven't seen yet seem pretty crazy:
Le Grand Macabre
The Ghosts of Versailles

Les Contes d'Hoffmann is rather crazy too, but I like it, I see it as a science-fiction opera.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Almaviva said:


> Le Grand Macabre


Le Grand Macabre doesn't even really have a plot... it's just plain weird.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

World Violist said:


> Le Grand Macabre doesn't even really have a plot... it's just plain weird.


I have a DVD of it, one of those homemade versions. I'll watch it one of these days.


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## Falstaft (Mar 27, 2010)

Die. Frau. Ohne. Schatten.

(Aegyptische Helene is pretty preposterous too, but I don't think anything holds a candle to the phantasmagoric contrivance of DFoS)


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Falstaft said:


> Die. Frau. Ohne. Schatten.
> 
> (Aegyptische Helene is pretty preposterous too, but I don't think anything holds a candle to the phantasmagoric contrivance of DFoS)


What about The Makropulos Case?


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Einstein on the Beach?


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

*Goldschmidt: Der gewaltige Hahnrei*

Bruno irrationally suspects his wife Stella of being unfaithful and then forces her to sleep with his best friend to end his uncertainty is open to interpretation on several levels.

Far-fetched... or outrageous?


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Einstein on the Beach?


Well, it's defined as a "non-plot" so I don't know if it qualifies.
Can a non-plot, that is, a non-existing plot, still be called a "something" plot like "farfetched plot?" If there is no plot, there is nothing to be farfetched about. I believe the point of Einstein on the Beach is just to provide images associated with the character; Glass was not really trying to tell a story.

I don't know, maybe this thread shouldn't really look into modernist-postmodernist-contemporary operas, because they tend to use a different concept of a plot.

I was more thinking about the silly or absurd plots of more ancient operas, although I did quote Le Grand Macabre and The Ghosts of Versailles.

But what I mean is, if we look at recent operas, so many of them have non-linear, alternative story-telling or no story telling at all, that it becomes difficult to consider them from the standpoint of this thread's idea.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> *Goldschmidt: Der gewaltige Hahnrei*
> 
> Bruno irrationally suspects his wife Stella of being unfaithful and then forces her to sleep with his best friend to end his uncertainty is open to interpretation on several levels.
> 
> Far-fetched... or outrageous?


This is actually not unheard of in real life so I'm not sure if it is far-fetched. Maybe outrageous.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I could never follow the plot of J. J. Strauss Jnr's _Die Fledermaus_. But I know they blame it all on champaigne in the end...

But I think that the thing that makes many non-opera people less than convinced about what is going on stage is not necessarily the plot, but that you (sometimes?) have overweight singers portraying guys and gals in the prime of their youth. I think this is ridiculous in itslef, let alone some of the plots...


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Andre said:


> I could never follow the plot of J. J. Strauss Jnr's _Die Fledermaus_. But I know they blame it all on champaigne in the end...
> 
> But I think that the thing that makes many non-opera people less than convinced about what is going on stage is not necessarily the plot, but that you (sometimes?) have overweight singers portraying guys and gals in the prime of their youth. I think this is ridiculous in itslef, let alone some of the plots...


Die Fledermaus? It's linear enough, and a light comedy. Unfaithful couples, working class women trying to meet rich guys... life as usual, nothing far-fetched about it.

I'm not sure if it has to be with overweight singers. Like I said, a very fat Pavarotti managed to make of the crazy Ernani plot something almost believable, just by singing so well that his expressed emotions made it all sound true.

It's easier to be convincing when you look the part, but the really great singers (like Montserrat Caballé) had so much command of their instrument and such a towering stage presence that you wouldn't even notice that they couldn't act and looked four times bigger than the character being portrayed.


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## Nix (Feb 20, 2010)

Doctor Atomic... I mean really, who sings about the number of calories in chocolate?


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Nix said:


> Doctor Atomic... I mean really, who sings about the number of calories in chocolate?


Funny, I've challenged above (see one of my newly edited replies above) the idea of looking for far-fetched plots in recent operas... but the examples keep popping up, so, the people have spoken, I guess the conclusion of this thread will be that the baroque/classical/romantic operas even though some of them seem silly, are actually not as insane as the more recent ones, LOL.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

If far-fetched can also mean convoluted then Lulu takes some beating (as I'm sure she did). Great opera, though. A lot of the lighter Classical-era opera plots were hopelessly complicated because of elements like the endless disguises, intercepted messages and love triangles (or rectangles). Years later I still have to read the libretti of the likes of Cosi Fan Tutte, The Marriage Of Figaro and The Barber Of Seville very hard in order to follow them properly. Then there are the 'no-plot' operas like Einstein On The Beach...


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Disappointed to see Der Freischutz mentioned as "ridiculous" and "outrageous". It was one of most important librettos in history of music, it inspired romantic love for traditional motives and folklore. Value of this influental innovation is incredible. Der Freischutz's plot and libretto is national folk tale. Such folk-based plots have their own specific charm and require particular approach to be appreciated I KNOW IT'S DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND FOR AMERICAN BUT AT LEAST DON'T MAKE PARADE OF IGNORANCE THANK YOU


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## karenpat (Jan 16, 2009)

I have no suggestions to add... but as a comment to the original post, I agree Platee is kind of farfetched but it's hilarious to watch a man dressed as a sea creature dressed as a woman, as in the only production I've seen, with a 50's/60's theme.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Two of Per Norgard's operas - The Divine Circus and Nuit des Hommes - have some spectacularly bizarre plots that I won't try to reproduce here, mainly because I just don't get them myself...


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Aramis said:


> Disappointed to see Der Freischutz mentioned as "ridiculous" and "outrageous". It was one of most important librettos in history of music, it inspired romantic love for traditional motives and folklore. Value of this influental innovation is incredible. Der Freischutz's plot and libretto is national folk tale. Such folk-based plots have their own specific charm and require particular approach to be appreciated I KNOW IT'S DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND FOR AMERICAN BUT AT LEAST DON'T MAKE PARADE OF IGNORANCE THANK YOU


You're welcome! However I must point out that ignorance has nothing to do with it. I do my homework before I watch an opera and I was perfectly aware of the origins of the story. I still find it far-fetched. There are plenty of things in my own culture that I find far-fetched. For instance, I find it really hard to believe that a fat man dressed in red comes from the North Pole to go down on people's roofs with a sac of presents, not to mention that red-nosed reindeer. Magic bullets that you shoot at someone but hit someone else on the other side of the stage are not much better. But I mean no offense.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> I do my homework before I watch an opera and I was perfectly aware of the origins of the story


Everyone is aware of origins of this story, it's hard to listen to classical music and never hear about it. But that doesn't equal understanding, which is proved by you, calling it ridiculous and outrageous - that is lack of basic understanding of subject.

Now you're acting like purpose of this thread was to talk about fantastic, not laughable and simply stupid librettos, that's avoiding responsibility for your own words which were pretty clear with their massage.

You don't have to make any excuses, I just pointed you out your ignorance towards this particular subject and I hope you make something out of it - if not understanding of cultural importance and value of Freischutz and all presence of folklore in music, which could hardly happen, then perhaps ability to don't laugh at things that know little about.


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

I always thought Il Trovatore always had a seriously rope plot. Great singing though and actually my favourite out of the so called middle three operas


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

My choice would be a little-known early Mozart opera called "La Finta Giardinera". The music is very nice, but the plot is so convoluted as to be virtually indescribable.
It's about a noblewoman who was attacked and hurt by a jealous lover and is now hanging around somewhere as a pretend female gardener,and that's about all I can say. 
The goings on are so confused and there are so many confusing sub plots that the whole thing makes absolutely no sense. 
It makes your typical confusing opera plot look like a nursery rhyme.
But remember Superhorn's law of opera- the opera has yet to be written with a plot as ridiculous as what actually happens in real life !
There's an excellent Teldec recording conducted by Harnoncourt with a fine cast.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

jflatter said:


> I always thought Il Trovatore always had a seriously rope plot. Great singing though and actually my favourite out of the so called middle three operas


I agree. Would you really throw your own baby on a bonfire by mistake??

My favourite for 'bonkers plot' is Un Giorno di Regno. I know it's about a King who has to be somewhere else & asks his friend to impersonate him for a day but it's all the sub plots which are so silly.

In my libretto the synopsis is written by Martin Sokol & he says "One wonders why someone as stage-wise as Verdi was willing to settle for such a badly mutilated libretto. We can only assume that he was so indifferent to the assignment that he simply did not care"

A few years' ago I played a trick on a friend who has never liked Verdi. I lent him the CDs in a plain box & asked him if the composer was Donizetti or Rossini. He guessed Donizetti & I said it was common for people to say it's one of the best he (Donizetti) never wrote.

I don't give a toss about the plot though, the music is sparkling.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

The Love for Three Oranges.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

superhorn said:


> My choice would be a little-known early Mozart opera called "La Finta Giardinera". The music is very nice, but the plot is so convoluted as to be virtually indescribable.
> It's about a noblewoman who was attacked and hurt by a jealous lover and is now hanging around somewhere as a pretend female gardener,and that's about all I can say.
> The goings on are so confused and there are so many confusing sub plots that the whole thing makes absolutely no sense.
> It makes your typical confusing opera plot look like a nursery rhyme.
> ...


I thought of La Finta Giardinera as well. I was about to post about it but I was posting from my cell phone and my long message to Aramis was too much for my small keyboard so I left La Finta Giardinera out. And that thing of going mad in it is way over the top as well.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Aramis said:


> Everyone is aware of origins of this story, it's hard to listen to classical music and never hear about it. But that doesn't equal understanding, which is proved by you, calling it ridiculous and outrageous - that is lack of basic understanding of subject.
> 
> Now you're acting like purpose of this thread was to talk about fantastic, not laughable and simply stupid librettos, that's avoiding responsibility for your own words which were pretty clear with their massage.
> 
> You don't have to make any excuses, I just pointed you out your ignorance towards this particular subject and I hope you make something out of it - if not understanding of cultural importance and value of Freischutz and all presence of folklore in music, which could hardly happen, then perhaps ability to don't laugh at things that know little about.


Relax, Aramis. It's just an Internet thread. Like I said, it wasn't my intention to offend your culture's traditions. See, I'm Italian-American. I quoted three Italian operas in my initial post (50% of the ones I quoted - and then further down I quoted an opera by an actual Italian American person, The Ghosts of Versailles), therefore, if anything, I'm making fun of my own culture a lot more than of yours. I think you're taking what I said way too seriously. If you feel offended that I thought the plot of Der Freishchutz is far-fetched, I take it back, don 't be upset. I just proposed a few operas to start the discussion, we can perfectly exclude this one from the discussion and there's still a lot of others that can fuel the thread, if you prefer. Fine with me.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

sospiro said:


> I agree. Would you really throw your own baby on a bonfire by mistake??
> 
> My favourite for 'bonkers plot' is Un Giorno di Regno. I know it's about a King who has to be somewhere else & asks his friend to impersonate him for a day but it's all the sub plots which are so silly.
> 
> ...


Un Giorno di Regno was the one he composed when his wife and two children died. That explains his lack of care for the libretto, which is not what he usually did.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> Relax, Aramis. It's just an Internet thread. Like I said, it wasn't my intention to offend your culture's traditions.


I'm not German and Freischutz is not part of my culture, so it's not that I'm offended. The reason for which instead of "relaxing" I reacted like I did is that, contrary to most people, I'm aware of some values and I care about them enough to defend them when I see that they are ridiculed. If all people would follow your suggestion and "relax", "let go" just to avoid any possible unpleasantness, this world would be pigsty filled with pigs that won't stand for anything except their own, miserable, but peaceful life full of "relaxing" THANK YOU FOR UNDERSTANDING

Me not upset.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Aramis said:


> I'm not German and Freischutz is not part of my culture, so it's not that I'm offended. The reason for which instead of "relaxing" I reacted like I did is that, contrary to most people, I'm aware of some values and I care about them enough to defend them when I see that they are ridiculed. If all people would follow your suggestion and "relax", "let go" just to avoid any possible unpleasantness, this world would be pigsty filled with pigs that won't stand for anything except their own, miserable, but peaceful life full of "relaxing THANK YOU FOR UNDERSTANDING


I have edited my post above to include a few more points, please read it once more.
Again, Aramis, you're taking this too seriously. 
Gee!
We're talking opera, buddy. It's not lilke there aren't any far-fetched plots out there in the opera universe. If anytime we quoted one, we had to engage in this kind of mini-crisis (words like "pigs" seem a little over the top in this context) it would be hard to have any sort of discussion here.
I proposed to take it back not because I don't stand for what I say, but rather because I was surprised with how upset you got, and I didn't want to upset you.
Like I said a few times, it wasn't my purpose to upset anyone.
This is just a friendly conversation, and you are by the way someone I like a lot, always with interesting contributions. I just wish you'd calm down and realize that someone feeling that Der Freishchutz is a little far-fetched is not the worst offense in the world.
But if you can't, then I'd say, OK, point taken, let's leave Der Freishchutz aside and move on. Cool?


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Okay i take pills doctor give me i calm down brrr gul gul gul


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Aramis said:


> Okay i take pills doctor give me i calm down brrr gul gul gul


Hmm... some vodka would do the same. Cheers!!!:tiphat:


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## Gualtier Malde (Nov 14, 2010)

Too many contenders here, if "far-fetched" is taken in a sufficiently broad sense (as in absurd, convoluted, inconsistent, or impossible to make sense of), but here are a select few that come to my mind:

Everything by Mozart, with Zauberflote leading bunch, but closely followed by Le nozze di Figaro
Verdi's mutilation of Schiller's play Don Carlos
Lohengrin (what's wrong with just asking really, and if you don't accept this, everything else crumbles)

Not that I mind that much, of course...


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## Falstaft (Mar 27, 2010)

Maybe the question we should be posing is what operas exist that have remotely _plausible_ or _non-contrived_ plots? Methinks it would be a rather shorter list


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## Gualtier Malde (Nov 14, 2010)

Gualtier Malde said:


> Verdi's mutilation of Schiller's play Don Carlos


To elaborate on this, I think the opera should really be called

"Excerpts from Don Carlos, with a dramatically meaningless autodafe added for the viewer's edification"


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Gualtier Malde said:


> Too many contenders here, if "far-fetched" is taken in a sufficiently broad sense (as in absurd, convoluted, inconsistent, or impossible to make sense of), but here are a select few that come to my mind:
> 
> Everything by Mozart, with Zauberflote leading bunch, but closely followed by Le nozze di Figaro
> Verdi's mutilation of Schiller's play Don Carlos
> ...


I remind you, it's not Verdi's mutilation. He just set the French libretto to music.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Falstaft said:


> Maybe the question we should be posing is what operas exist that have remotely _plausible_ or _non-contrived_ plots? Methinks it would be a rather shorter list


OK, this thread is turning into an interesting debate.

Here we have several different categories already.

1. Operas with ridiculously implausible plots - e.g., Il Trovatore with a mother tossing the wrong baby in a bonfire, Così with two sisters completely incapable of recognizing their barely disguised fiancés, etc.

2. Operas with silly messes of a plot - e.g. Die Zauberflote, Platée

3. Operas with just plain bad libretti - e.g., Euryanthe, Simon Boccanegra (which doesn't mean these operas aren't sublime)

4. Operas with strange fantastic tales, be them folklore or fairy tales or made up - e.g., Der Freishchutz, The Ring of the Nibelung (again, these are fine operas)

--------

Then, we have operas with plausible plots. Falstaff suggests they are rare, actually I don't think so. There are many operas with plausible plots.

-Guglielmo Tell
-Roberto Devereux
-Maria Stuarda
-Lucrezia Borgia
-Macbeth
-Otello
-Die Fledermaus
-Carmen
-The Queen of Spades
-Cavalleria Rusticana
-I Pagliacci
-Il Tabarro
-Elektra
-Janufa
-The Rake's Progress
-Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk District
-Peter Grimes
-War and Peace
-Porgy and Bess
-Dialogues des Carmelites
-Nixon in China

...for starters.


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## Gualtier Malde (Nov 14, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> I remind you, it's not Verdi's mutilation. He just set the French libretto to music.


I know he didn't write the libretto, I just thought it more convenient to refer to operas by the composer's name.

I don't know many of the operas from your new list, but I think you'd have to withdraw Fledermaus (wildly implausible: husband doesn't recognize wife, even though they chat and sing together for some 15 minutes).
That said, I want to add that I love the Fledermaus music and its (implausible) light-hearted plot; it's the piece I've seen on stage most often (by a wide margin).


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Gualtier Malde said:


> I know he didn't write the libretto, I just thought it more convenient to refer to operas by the composer's name.
> 
> I don't know many of the operas from your new list, but I think you'd have to withdraw Fledermaus (wildly implausible: husband doesn't recognize wife, even though they chat and sing together for some 15 minutes).
> That said, I want to add that I love the Fledermaus music and its (implausible) light-hearted plot; it's the piece I've seen on stage most often (by a wide margin).


You're right, I forgot about this detail. I thought of Die Fledermaus more like a story of cheating husbands and wives and working glass girls trying to nail a rich daddy, these are facts of everyday life and they happen over and over in real life so the concept is not implausible. But yes, the fact that he couldn't recognize his wife is part of the silly world of operas, although in some productions she wears a mask like those Venetian carnival masks, and she fakes a foreign accent. So not entirely implausible, but I grant you that Die Fledermaus is not the best of examples.


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## Herkku (Apr 18, 2010)

Has any of you read Sir Denis Forman's book "A Night at the Opera"? It covers 83 operas, essentially the basic repertoire, describing the plots, characters, history of each. Now, that's all very well, but we are alraedy familiar with those. What makes this worth reading are the absolutely outrageous compact plot summaries, made totally tongue-in-cheek! It really shows that operas de not have to be taken too seriously.

If not so much far-fecthed (because it's based on an actual case history), but one with a very odd choice for a libretto is Michael Nyman's "The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat".


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Herkku said:


> Has any of you read Sir Denis Forman's book "A Night at the Opera"? It covers 83 operas, essentially the basic repertoire, describing the plots, characters, history of each. Now, that's all very well, but we are alraedy familiar with those. What makes this worth reading are the absolutely outrageous compact plot summaries, made totally tongue-in-cheek! It really shows that operas de not have to be taken too seriously.
> 
> If not so much far-fecthed (because it's based on an actual case history), but one with a very odd choice for a libretto is Michael Nyman's "The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat".


Yes, I've read Sir Forman's book, it is hilarious! I love it!
And yes, to write an opera about a neurological condition is odd indeed.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Had he finished it Mozart's L'oca del Cairo would have been a serious contender for Crappiest Plot of the 18th Century Award. I find it too painful to explain.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

elgars ghost said:


> Had he finished it Mozart's L'oca del Cairo would have been a serious contender for Crappiest Plot of the 18th Century Award. I find it too painful to explain.


Now you got me curious. I have it, since I have the M22 box set (which I have barely started to explore - only watched two so far) and it must be there. I guess I could try to dig out Herkku's review, he must have talked about it.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Sadly I'm not prepared to satisfy your curiosity, Almaviva (or should I say put you out of your misery?) - believe me, it's that bad! It was written by the same dude who provided Mozart with the libretto for Idomeneo, the difference being that L'oca del Cairo was actually his own story.


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## Herkku (Apr 18, 2010)

It's the message #325, but as you can see I couldn't see either rhyme or reason in the production, combined with another unfinished work, Lo sposo deluso. I have read the intended plot in Osborne's The Complete Operas of Mozart, but the Salzburg production had nothing to do with it - as you would expect.

To my complete dismay I noticed that all my former picture links are broken, something that I must try to clarify with my ISP, since the pictures have been uploaded to their server.


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## Il Pirata (Nov 26, 2010)

I'll nominate Bellini's La Straniera to the illustrious list..... a man thought drowned was actually hiding inside the lake. Didn't know they had diving gear then....


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