# Symphonies like Schubert's 8th "Unfinished"



## peeyaj

Hi everyone.. Need your help 

In conjunction with my previous thread, I need recommendations on symphonies on the style and scope of Schubert's Unfinished symphony. It is my 2nd favorite symphony after the Great. It is the *purest* Schubert symphony.






My conditions: 4 movement symphonies are welcome.

1. The first two movements should be more or less in the same tempo.

In Schubert's 8th, it's Allegro Moderato and Andante con moto.

2. Full of lush and long melodies with wonderful woodwind melodies.

3. Three trombones

etc..

Thanks everyone!!


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## Xaltotun

I sometimes hear a similar spirit in Saint-Saëns 3rd, especially the 1st movement. Also... something by Mendelssohn... can't put my finger on it, though.


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## joen_cph

It´s a bit of a leap, but perhaps-perhaps try Pettersson´s 8th!


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## ptr

joen_cph said:


> It´s a bit of a leap, but perhaps-perhaps try Pettersson´s 8th!


And as long as where on to Swedish stuff, why not Atterberg's Sixth 'The Dollar Symphony' (Winner of the 1928 Columbia 100th anniversary Schubert's passing competition)... And to my ears, I hear a lot of Schubert in Schumann's Spring!

/ptr


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## drpraetorus

You should give the Tchaikovsky 6 a listen. The opening of the 6 was inspired by the opening of the Schubert. It might not meet all your requirements but it is tied to the Unfinished.


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## Feathers

I'm not sure whether this is similar enough to the Unfinished Symphony, but Liszt's Dante symphony reminds me a little bit of the Unfinished.  Even if it's not similar, it's just a great work in general.


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## Arsakes

I think this symphony is a brother of Beethoven's 3rd symphony. It also reminds me of Bruckner (don't know exactly which symphony), and again Schumann...


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## flamencosketches

Xaltotun said:


> I sometimes hear a similar spirit in Saint-Saëns 3rd, especially the 1st movement. Also... something by Mendelssohn... can't put my finger on it, though.


Yes! I completely agree. It doesn't hurt that Saint-Saëns' 3rd is also a two-movement symphony.

I have been listening to the Organ symphony and the Unfinished symphony both a lot lately. Phenomenal works both!


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## Enthusiast

I always think of it as a cul de sac - Schubert took the idea as far as it would go and saw no way to take it further. I love it but am glad he didn't finish it!


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## Becca

The Organ symphony is not really two movements, each of the halves is broken into 2 clearly defined sections with the typical layout
Adagio - Allegro molto
Poco adagio
--
Allegro moderato - Presto
Maestoso - Allegro


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## flamencosketches

Becca said:


> The Organ symphony is not really two movements, each of the halves is broken into 2 clearly defined sections with the typical layout
> Adagio - Allegro molto
> Poco adagio
> --
> Allegro moderato - Presto
> Maestoso - Allegro


Given that, I wonder if Saint-Saëns was inspired to call it a two-movement symphony due in part to Schubert's Unfinished.


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## Josquin13

Felix Mendelssohn's Symphony no. 4 "Italian" is an obvious choice. It was commonly coupled with Schubert's 8th during the LP era. The symphony is in four movements, and the music is full of "lush" melodies that are played by both the woodwinds and strings. One difference is that Mendelssohn doesn't use any trombones in the 4th Symphony, only 2 horns and 2 trumpets. Which can be explained by Mendelssohn's remark that trombones were "too sacred to be used frequently", since he associated them with ecclesiastical music. Indeed most German composers at that time believed that trombones should be used (sparingly) to represent an angel chorus, or the voice of God, or in association with the Christ, or some other sacred or "other worldly" or even "underworld" role--in a mass, motet, or oratorio. Accordingly, Mendelssohn does use three trombones in his "Hymn of Praise" 2nd Symphony, and his 5th Symphony, which his sister Fanny named the "Reformation." So, it's not insignificant that Schubert uses three trombones in his "Unfinished" Symphony. Another difference is that Mendelssohn's 4th is marked Allegro vivace in the first movement rather than Allegro moderato, but the second movement is similarly marked Andante con moto.










I'd also suggest Robert Schumann's Symphony no. 1 "Spring", as a possible candidate, though others might find that a stretch. Like Schubert, Schumann similarly uses three trombones in his 1st Symphony (& 3rd Symphony), and I believe the influence of both Schubert and Mendelssohn can be heard in this work: 



.

The idea to use three trombones in a symphonic work likely comes from Beethoven, who was the first major composer to use trombones in a symphony, when he scored parts for alto, tenor, and bass trombones in his 5th Symphony. Although the idea to use three trombones had first come to Beethoven when he composed his early oratorio, "Christ on the Mount of Olives" (according to Ferdinand Ries, the orchestration of three trombones here was possibly an afterthought on Beethoven's part). Beethoven also uses trombones in his "Consecration of the House", "Ruins of Athens", and "Leonore" and "Fidelio" overtures (& opera), as well as in the 5th, 6th, and 9th Symphonies, & Missa Solemnis. Beethoven himself was likely influenced by Handel's orchestration of the trombone--for example, in the oratorio, Saul, as well as Haydn's in The Creation, and possibly other choral works by Mozart (the Requiem & "Great" Mass in C Minor) and Gluck's opera, Alceste.

P.S. I've just realized that I'm responding to a request made in 2013!... oh well. I hope that someone finds my thoughts of interest.


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## Alfacharger

Josquin13 said:


> Felix Mendelssohn's Symphony no. 4 "Italian" is an obvious choice. It was commonly coupled with Schubert's 8th during the LP era. The symphony is in four movements, and the music is full of "lush" melodies that are played by both the woodwinds and strings. One difference is that Mendelssohn doesn't use any trombones in the 4th Symphony, only 2 horns and 2 trumpets. Which can be explained by Mendelssohn's remark that trombones were "too sacred to be used frequently", since he associated them with ecclesiastical music. Indeed most German composers at that time believed that trombones should be used (sparingly) to represent an angel chorus, or the voice of God, or in association with the Christ, or some other sacred or "other worldly" or even "underworld" role--in a mass, motet, or oratorio. Accordingly, Mendelssohn does use three trombones in his "Hymn of Praise" 2nd Symphony, and his 5th Symphony, which his sister Fanny named the "Reformation." So, it's not insignificant that Schubert uses three trombones in his "Unfinished" Symphony. Another difference is that Mendelssohn's 4th is marked Allegro vivace in the first movement rather than Allegro moderato, but the second movement is similarly marked Andante con moto.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd also suggest Robert Schumann's Symphony no. 1 "Spring", as a possible candidate, though others might find that a stretch. Like Schubert, Schumann similarly uses three trombones in his 1st Symphony (& 3rd Symphony), and I believe the influence of both Schubert and Mendelssohn can be heard in this work:
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> The idea to use three trombones in a symphonic work likely comes from Beethoven, who was the first major composer to use trombones in a symphony, when he scored parts for alto, tenor, and bass trombones in his 5th Symphony. Although the idea to use three trombones had first come to Beethoven when he composed his early oratorio, "Christ on the Mount of Olives" (according to Ferdinand Ries, the orchestration of three trombones here was possibly an afterthought on Beethoven's part). Beethoven also uses trombones in his "Consecration of the House", "Ruins of Athens", and "Leonore" and "Fidelio" overtures (& opera), as well as in the 5th, 6th, and 9th Symphonies, & Missa Solemnis. Beethoven himself was likely influenced by Handel's orchestration of the trombone--for example, in the oratorio, Saul, as well as Haydn's in The Creation, and possibly other choral works by Mozart (the Requiem & "Great" Mass in C Minor) and Gluck's opera, Alceste.
> 
> P.S. I've just realized that I'm responding to a request made in 2013!... oh well. I hope that someone finds my thoughts of interest.


Not Schumann's 1st but his unfinished 1832 "Zwickau Symphony" which he only completed two movements. The symphony also has trombones in the orchestration.


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## SONNET CLV

peeyaj said:


> Hi everyone.. Need your help
> 
> In conjunction with my previous thread, I need recommendations on symphonies on the style and scope of Schubert's Unfinished symphony. It is my 2nd favorite symphony after the Great. It is the *purest* Schubert symphony.
> 
> My conditions: 4 movement symphonies are welcome.
> 
> 1. The first two movements should be more or less in the same tempo.
> 
> In Schubert's 8th, it's Allegro Moderato and Andante con moto.
> 
> 2. Full of lush and long melodies with wonderful woodwind melodies.
> 
> 3. Three trombones
> 
> etc..
> 
> Thanks everyone!!


When I initially read this post, my first comment to myself was "There's nothing quite like the Schubert 'Unfinished'"! To my ears, this remains one of the great _unique_ symphonies in the repertoire. There really is nothing like it, not even in the remainder of Schubert.

I remain a great Schubert fan (in fact, prior to visiting this site tonight I was listening to various recordings of _Winterreise_, recordings of which I like to hoard and have quite a number in my collection). I've never been anything but "cool" on the Great Ninth Symphony, my least favorite Schubert work, but I admire the early symphonies greatly, especially the Fifth, yet, the 8th is nothing like any of them. It's a uniquely facetted gem. It's one of those handful of works I'm familiar with that seems to transport my aural sensibilities into another universe.

So, my thinking is that in order to recommend similar works, I have to go with those that have the capability of transporting me to other universes. The most obvious one after Schubert's Eighth is the Dvorak Ninth. This one literally opens up new worlds to my ears. And though I admire all of the Dvorak's symphonies, none quite hits me with the power of the Ninth which, again, seems to come from somewhere beyond.

I include the Bruckner Seventh in that category, too, especially in the Max Rudolf/Cincinnati Symphony recording, a long time "desert island disc" in my collection. I can't really suggest that this symphony sounds anything like Schubert's Eighth, but it does feature a big brass section, so that should satisfy the seeker after trombones.

Tchaikovsky's Sixth Symphony, especially in my favorite recording, the Levine/Chicago version, seems otherworldly, as well. Again, I'm a big fan of the Russian master and admire all the symphonies, each of which is unique. But the first five, for all their merit, still inhabit the same sound universe -- the one that springs up from the western tradition. But that Sixth somehow steps outside of the tradition to create it's own sound world (both aurally and philosophically), and in that way it resembles, to my sensibilities, the Schubert 8th.

Perhaps Furtwanlger's First Symphony is in this same category. But to a lesser degree. And both Nielsen's and Sibelius's Fourth. Too, William Alwyn's Fourth. Samuel Barber's Symphony No. 1. Korngold's Symphony in F-sharp. Braga Santos's Symphony No.4. Kaljo Raid's Symphony No.1. Bo Linde's Sinfonia. Benjamin Lees's Symphony No.3. I could name more. But the thing that all of these works have in common for me is that they move outside of what I normally consider the _ordinary_ sound world of symphonic music and edge into a place that seems deeper, richer, and in need of further exploration.

I notably have no Beethoven on this list, though there is one recording of the Ninth, by Furtwangler, which gets us close to that other universe. But Beethoven has his own universe and his music sits comfortably within in without any competition from the outside. But that is still something different from the feelings I get when listening to the Schubert 8th or the Dvorak 9th or the Bruckner 7th ….

In any case, if I've mentioned a work here that you have not yet heard, perhaps you'll want to give it a listen. You just may find yourself in some kind of agreement.


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## KenOC

Certainly there’s nothing like Schubert’s Unfinished. What there is of it is perfect, written at a very high level of inspiration. Small wonder that he couldn’t finish it up!

It’s interesting to compare it with the Great C-major that followed. One so heartfelt, so private – the other a very “public” symphony, with its ordered ranks of notes and cadences marching across the landscape… (simile is borrowed from somebody)


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