# TC Composers' Competition: Round 1 discussion thread



## Ramako

In this thread we aim to discuss our works, comment on others and hopefully learn something. Here also you may post scores if you want to.

This round was a solo piano piece with a guideline upper limit of 5 minutes.

So let's discuss :tiphat:


----------



## Ramako

So I thought I would make a couple of comments on the two top pieces and explain my own piece and what I learnt from the judgements to start things off.

*On the two top pieces:*

I must confess I was very confused by the attention that Fugue and Variations was receiving at first. On re-listening a bit, however, I was able to see past the Billy-ness that had put me off to start with. I still remain not entirely convinced by the Fugue, but the exotic atmospheres juergen created in the variations alone make me see why so many people voted for it. A very good piece.

Der Wecker is excellent. I particularly like the theme, and on listening to it more, I take back my initial comment about repetition - which was not a criticism really, because I would say the same about Handel.

*My piece*

My first error was not realising the five minute time limit , which I find quite amusing but anyway... The accusations of repetition I think are symptomatic of the structural weakness in the second half. It being too long (for itself - not just the time limit) I agree with, and have taken on board in considered my structure for this piece, as well as in general.

So, as you might have guessed before, I am the composer of the Piano Piece in C minor. In retrospect I think I stuck to my initial structural idea too rigidly, particularly in the second half. It should be understood that I am very attached to the type of sonata form which uses two repeats. However, I thought it best to avoid repeats in a competition, but I still tried to get across some of the main features that I like of this form.

An analysis of my piece

The crucial structural device is the incomplete scale ending on the leading tone at about 0:30. This leads me into B major, and only via a sequence going up by whole tones do I get to E flat for the traditional second subject of sonata form. At the end of this the music runs out of steam, with the over-repetition of the 2nd theme at about 1:45-50 and its final fragmentation. This fragmentation makes a thematic connection with the opening theme. This next section should be understood to be both a development and an exposition at the same time - it is a summarised repeat of the ideas of the exposition proper, while at the same time having greater harmonic tension. This comes from my beloved repeats. The section rests after the previous energetic closing material, before gaining more momentum with the broken scale motif again, this time, however, using the top note as fifth so that each time the key rises by a major third (two whole tones). This ends in the broken scale motif, this time covering a whole octave, however, because it only uses whole tones. The 2nd tune is linked with the interval of whole tones, and this whole-tone scale is the point of maximum 'victory' for the interval of a tone. The following section (from about 2:35) is the devlopment proper, and has a new theme. Each phrase (two bars) is in a new key, displaced from the previous one by either 1 or 2 whole tones. At about 3:00, however this breaks down and a sequence rising by semitones makes the bass rest on G as dominant of C. The following chromatic rising harmony destroys the dominance of whole tones perceived before. At 3:20 comes the recap proper with the main theme in a new version.

Here I will stop because from here on in in retrospect I would have changed it. I think I failed to appreciate the importance of the _order_ of the themes in a work of this scale and also, repeating things in full more than once in the tonic for the recap. In this sense I failed to imitate the form I wanted to. At the end however, 5:50, there is the descending chromatic scale type thing which I would probably retain because it was supposed to represent the final triumph of semi-tones. Also some of the battle between C major and minor would have been retained, though somewhat more concise.


----------



## emiellucifuge

Hi Ramako; just my friendly opinion on the above:

Obviously you had some ambitious plans for your piece, and its quite intresting to read your analysis - it sheds some light on your piece. However, I think you may have been TOO ambitious, because simply not enough of this translates into the sounds we hear as listeners. For example, 'the triumph of the semitones' at the end; I just dont hear it that way. Indeed, Im not sure how I could possibly come to understand that as the idea behind the work unless you make it absolutely clear in some Ivesian way. The problem then is that you are also trying to have a conflict between C major and minor.


----------



## Ramako

emiellucifuge said:


> Hi Ramako; just my friendly opinion on the above:
> 
> Obviously you had some ambitious plans for your piece, and its quite intresting to read your analysis - it sheds some light on your piece. However, I think you may have been TOO ambitious, because simply not enough of this translates into the sounds we hear as listeners. For example, 'the triumph of the semitones' at the end; I just dont hear it that way. Indeed, Im not sure how I could possibly come to understand that as the idea behind the work unless you make it absolutely clear in some Ivesian way. The problem then is that you are also trying to have a conflict between C major and minor.


I am not saying that I was not too ambitious over the course of the composition, but a good half of this is retrospective. Also I am still learning. The whole tones thing I only noticed after I wrote the development, and thought it a good thing to try and deal with. However, quite a lot of this of it is not _supposed_ to be heard per se. The 'triumph' of whole-tones or whatever doesn't really mean triumph, it just means that the sounds associated with that interval dominate in that sections. It's about the contrast between various sound worlds. Perhaps I will get the hang of this better in the future - this piece is the first time this kind of thing has occurred to me. I agree that the major/minor thing at the end is the cause of probably an unnecessary minute, if not more.


----------



## Crudblud

Offering some thoughts on my piece, _Valse fromage_:

Obviously this one did not do too well, coming seventh out of nine <insert crappy Star Trek joke here> but I'm really not surprised, I enjoy the piece so it would follow that not many others think too highly of it. Although initially I was working on something quite complex, I reigned myself in after remembering that we had agreed to write a "simple" piano piece, and instead went to my favourite simple dance. Writing chromatically, I ended up with a sort of deformed sort of burlesque sort of chocolate box type affair which originally made me think of ultra religious inbred family cult rituals played for laughs, but eventually settled (those inbreds don't like cameras, you know) with the image of the bear, after all, is there anything so dopey yet sinister as a bear?

Whether I had won or lost I would still be happy with the piece, it does what I want it to do.


----------



## emiellucifuge

@Ramako,

I understand you're still learning! Its just a friendly comment. What I wanted to say I suppose is that it is better to 'say' one thing clearly than to say many things


----------



## jani

Ok my piece was that chaotic sounding piano sonata in C# minor, It was chaotic because i wanted to get kinda chaotic feel to it but i guess i went to far and it became too chaotic, i would have changed and made it better but we had a deadline so i just had to post kinda "Unfinished" well not unfinished more like "Not proof read" work.

Here is the sheet for themes ( i can provide the full sheet if you want)







As you see the first theme is based on arpeggios played as 16th notes, on the development section i use the root note of each arpeggio to create a melody then i used and manipulated on different ways, like instead of playing the melody on treble clef its played on the bass clef.

The second theme is based on single 16th notes and dotted eight note chords.¨

I used those octave runs to modulate to different key&and back and the purpose was also to give something else than the main melody ( of the piece etc...).

I can already see what i can improve etc , my next round piece is gonna be much better etc...
Also i wanted to use Harpsichord VST instead of piano but i didn't because it could have been against the rules.


----------



## juergen

Here are my comments:

I can really say that I enjoyed every piece of the competition. Therefore my voting was a bit arbitrary. First I intended to put Ramako's piece to the second place, but then I changed my mind because I thought it is too long. For a similar reason I didn't vote for the Wecker, I thought it's a bit too short. But of course these are good works. Valse fromage was also on my short list. And I was a bit surprized that Ahrpia scored so few points. In the end you have to see that music is not a sport discipline. It's all a matter of taste.

The composition of my piece Fugue and Variations was a spontaneous decision, provoked by the discussion in Billy's legendary "Symphony Three" thread. Actually the idea came to me after Crudblud presented his "rapsodie symphonique sur le nom de Billy" (at page 12 of that thread: http://www.talkclassical.com/20154-my-symphony-three-12.html). Many thanks for that, Crudblud. :tiphat:

Billy uses some elements of a fugue in his symphonies (in his own special way, of course) so that's how I came to the idea with the fugue.

I have prepared an audio file where you can compare the relevant parts of Billy's Symphony and my piano piece:

Billy's Symphony No.23 vs. Fugue and Variations

If you want to download Fugue and Variations, here is the link:

Fugue and Variations

I know that the fugue sounds a bit awkward. Therefore I have prepared a version, where the fugue is shortened a bit:

Fugue and Variations (Fugue shortened)

Another thing I've tried to take over from Billy, is the speed of composing. So I set myself a time limit of 8 hours for the composition. However it probably took a little longer.


----------



## jani

I knew it was your piece when i heard it for the first time. ( yea because of Billys thread)


----------



## Ramako

@Crudblud

I liked the Valse Fromage. I guess that it's a case of opposites since it is so different from my normal listening... For my tastes I think that there was too little repetition - I felt that the middle section went too far from the original idea. That said, I did like how the original idea came back at the end, and how it seemed to be going back to the beginning, but then kept on turning away until almost the last minute - which depends on the far wanderings in the middle. Is there any technique or thoughts on that that you could share? Also, I thought it was a mouse to be honest, not a bear. Perhaps it was because I had cheese in mind...

@jani.

I liked the ideas in your piece, but I felt that somehow it didn't all gel together somehow. Please do post your score if you want to. I know that several people did want to but no one has yet. There are certain harmonies I would like to identify, and also find that melody in the development you mention.

@juergen.

Yeah, I think everyone knew it was you :lol: Thanks for those links, particularly the first one - it was very interesting. I am impressed at what you saw in Billy's work, and I'm glad that you could share it with us, but I do think it was juergen, not Billy, that people were voting for.



emiellucifuge said:


> I understand you're still learning! Its just a friendly comment. What I wanted to say I suppose is that it is better to 'say' one thing clearly than to say many things


Yeah, but that's less fun


----------



## Crudblud

Ramako said:


> I thought it was a mouse to be honest, not a bear. Perhaps it was because I had cheese in mind...


Well, everyone brings their own interpretation. The "fromage" refers to cheesiness rather than actual cheese, and really I could have used it in association with a lot of images. When I came to the bear idea (which replaced the aforementioned inbred family and other things grimmer still that may have been just a little bit too dark for this cute little forum of ours) I originally wanted to find something like an early 1900s photograph of someone dressed up in a nasty looking bear costume, perhaps from a carnival, Mardi Gras or something bizarre looking like that. Eventually I just had to settle for a real bear, but I inverted the colours to make it a bit uglier - a fair compromise.

I'm a bit too tired to discuss anything more complicated than the above, but I'll be back to answer your other questions as best I can tomorrow.


----------



## jani

Oh i have to change my description, since the arps were diationic i made three note motif/melody ( starts with B,C#,D# bar 11) I haven't read the score for couple weeks.

Anyway if you cant play it, you can click the download button on right and download the pdf
http://musescore.com/user/27469/scores/61587#


----------



## Crudblud

Ramako said:


> I liked the Valse Fromage. I guess that it's a case of opposites since it is so different from my normal listening... For my tastes I think that there was too little repetition - I felt that the middle section went too far from the original idea. That said, I did like how the original idea came back at the end, and how *it seemed to be going back to the beginning, but then kept on turning away until almost the last minute - which depends on the far wanderings in the middle*. Is there any technique or thoughts on that that you could share?


I'm not exactly sure what you mean by the section I put in bold, so I'm hoping you can elaborate on that.

On the idea of repetition; I don't think a piece of this simplicity would have benefited from more of it. If the piece had been more complex or perhaps faster I could see added repeats working, but with those changes the piece loses its atmosphere and becomes something other than what I want it to be.


----------



## clavichorder

I personally thought the fromage waltz critter was a fruit bat. I like fruit bats.


----------



## tdc

I thought the Waltz Fromage was interesting but I'd like to hear something else by Crudblud as I have an irrational dislike of all music in standard waltz format ie - Johann Strauss II. I don't even much like Ravel's _La Valse_ and I like everything Ravel did.


----------



## Crudblud

tdc said:


> I thought the Waltz Fromage was interesting but I'd like to hear something else by Crudblud as I have an irrational dislike of all music in standard waltz format ie - Johann Strauss II. I don't even much like Ravel's _La Valse_ and I like everything Ravel did.


My piece for the next competition is quite far removed from the waltz, whether or not you'll like it is another matter entirely, but it definitely isn't a waltz.

Alternatively you could try Sailin' Tuns!, my most popular release at the moment. It does contain some pieces in 3/4 and similar meters, but none of them are particularly waltz like.


----------



## juergen

Crudblud said:


> Alternatively you could try Sailin' Tuns!, my most popular release at the moment.


Yeah, Sailin' Tuns! is cool, I like it alot! If we ever should have a competition round for a solo instrument without accompaniment you should enter something like this. Three points from me are guaranteed.


----------



## jani

This piece(from the works i have composed) is the piece which has gotten the most love , i wrote it a year ago, but i have never gotten a opinion/feedback about it from a classical music listener. SO if you have extra 5mins could you listen it and give your thoughts about it.


----------



## tdc

Crudblud said:


> My piece for the next competition is quite far removed from the waltz, whether or not you'll like it is another matter entirely, but it definitely isn't a waltz.
> 
> Alternatively you could try Sailin' Tuns!, my most popular release at the moment. It does contain some pieces in 3/4 and similar meters, but none of them are particularly waltz like.


I just listened to the first few. It is not the kind of thing I am usually drawn to, but it has cool elements to it. I know you are drawn to humor in music, so for what you are trying to accomplish it is good. But I would be interested to hear if you can also compose a more serious piece with little or no humor in it. For example Frank Zappa's 'Sexual Harrassment in the Workplace' has a humorous title, but the music itself taken without the title is not necessarily humorous.


----------



## Crudblud

tdc said:


> I just listened to the first few. It is not the kind of thing I am usually drawn to, but it has cool elements to it. I know you are drawn to humor in music, so for what you are trying to accomplish it is good. But I would be interested to hear if you can also compose a more serious piece with little or no humor in it. For example Frank Zappa's 'Sexual Harrassment in the Workplace' has a humorous title, but the music itself taken without the title is not necessarily humorous.


I would recommend listening to the whole thing, as it progresses the mood becomes much more varied and I would say that the final piece is quite serious indeed, melodramatic perhaps but sincerely so.

Other than that, wait for the next competition, you may be pleasantly surprised.


----------



## Ramako

Crudblud said:


> I'm not exactly sure what you mean by the section I put in bold, so I'm hoping you can elaborate on that.
> 
> On the idea of repetition; I don't think a piece of this simplicity would have benefited from more of it. If the piece had been more complex or perhaps faster I could see added repeats working, but with those changes the piece loses its atmosphere and becomes something other than what I want it to be.


Actually, now that I understand that it was supposed to be quite dark I think I understand the whole thing better (cheese, mistaken-mice and waltz had me confused before). Before I heard the middle section just as a contrasting section, waiting for the return of the end, whereas I think that it is in some sense crucial to the idea of the piece (going from what you are saying). That doesn't stop me from still hearing it that way, and I was identifying repetition as one of the divergences in my taste from the piece, but I still like it.


----------



## Crudblud

Ramako said:


> Actually, now that I understand that it was supposed to be quite dark I think I understand the whole thing better (cheese, mistaken-mice and waltz had me confused before). Before I heard the middle section just as a contrasting section, waiting for the return of the end, whereas I think that it is in some sense crucial to the idea of the piece (going from what you are saying). That doesn't stop me from still hearing it that way, and I was identifying repetition as one of the divergences in my taste from the piece, but I still like it.


I don't leave anything in that I don't think is necessary, although there wasn't much editing on this one. It was simple enough that I had a working version on the day I started it and just did a little tweaking over the next few days, the main issue being the balance of contrasting tempi, which are actually inverted: the main 3/4 is faster in terms of BPM than the faster sounding middle section but I use smaller units in the latter, there's no logic behind it, that's just the way it came out. The only thing I regret is not using a different piano; the more dense legato sections sound pretty rough and not in a way that helps the piece, though that has to do with my hardware which is better than most but not up to scratch for an audio workstation.


----------

