# Leonard Bernstein



## oogabooha

I'm very surprised that there still isn't a guestbook thread for Lenny (although [obviously] there have been mentions of him on the board), so I've decided to create one myself.

What is there to be said about Leonard Bernstein? He's definitely one of my favorite composers, and was a fantastic conductor, intellectual, and composer. I've thoroughly gone through all of his books, Omnibus specials, Young People's concerts, lectures, and music/recordings. What a great person.

Are there any other Bernstein fans on here?


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## samurai

I am, especially for his Mahler and Tchaikovsky readings.


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## Crudblud

A fantastic composer I would say, based at least on his musical scores and his Mass, though I am yet to hear the symphonies. As an educator he is also an engaging figure, both his _Young People's Concerts_ and _Unanswered Question_ lectures at Harvard are series I would recommend to one and all, truly fascinating and engrossing, and even entertaining without falling in to the dreaded genre of "edutainment" that did plague my years at school.


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## TheVioletKing

I love Bernstein! When I was in high school, I got to play some of his works (Profanation, Candide, and so forth). I absolutely love how he conducts and his Operetta Candide has impacted me in so many ways. How I wish he was still around.


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## davinci

As a wee boy I grew up watching Lenny host "The Young People's Concerts" during the 1960s. He also hosted other shows on CBS-TV. In H.S. orchestra we played many Lenny pieces including "West Side Story" and some Gershwin whom Lenny adored. Obviously, our music director was a Lenny fan especially since this was in New York.
I love his Mahler most of all and I respect that he wanted to present music to the masses.
And yes, I agree his Tchaikovsky was excellent, and his Schumann.


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## oogabooha

I think the best thing about Lenny was that not only did he want to study and discuss and work on music at a scholarly, historical level, but he also realized that many aspects of music (like creativity, overall expression) simply can't be defined in words.


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## arpeggio

*Best Mahler Conductor*

I have made friends with a retired doublebass player from the National Symphony. He plays with me in one of the groups I am a member. I asked him who was the best Mahler conductors he ever played for. His response was Bruno Walter and Lenny.


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## Wandering

I'm a big fan of Westside Story, not opera or musicals of themselves, but the music within them. Westside story has instant melodic or tune appeal. The story itself I can do without. Have yet to listened to Candide. Many American composer from his time aren't either listened and referred to much anymore. William Schuman and Walter Piston, to name a couple. I've loved many of his recordings as a conductor, I'm sad to say I've neglected his music.


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## Vaneyes

Toscanini and Bernstein, probably the two most charismatic conductors in modern times. I know I'm stretching "modern" a little bit with Arturo.

I can't imagine an individual packing more into his life than Lenny. It seemed he was up for everything 26 hours a day, 8 days a week. He was not only a respected musical figure, but also a respected politico...of Leftist leaning of course.

He would sometimes put himself in slightly embarrassing situations, but that was Lenny, wearing his feelings, his ambitions in full view. If he wasn't so talented, confident, and charismatic, a number of these choices would have shrunk his avenues for success.

Except for Candide Overture, I'm not a huge fan of his compositions. His conducting is quite another matter. There is none greater, when you consider how much he gave beyond the podium.

My LB record collection is modest, considering my high praise. That's mostly due to my sparse physical count collecting philosophy. No slighting intended.

Schumann Symphonies 1 - 4 (DG)
Dvorak Symphony 7, etc. (Sony)
Mahler Symphony 3 (Sony)
Mahler Symphony 5 (DG)
Mahler Symphony 8 (Sony, w. LSO)
Mahler Symphony 9 (Sony)
Mahler Lieder (DG, w. Hampson)
Mahler Lieder (Sony, w. Tourel)
Mahler Lieder (Sony, w. Baker)
Bernstein Candide, Symphonic Dances (Sony)
Gershin Rhapsody in Blue, etc. (Sony)
Honegger Pacific 231, Rugby (Sony)
Milhaud Choephores (Sony)
Roussel Symphony 3 (Sony)
Shostakovich Symphonies 1 & 7 (DG)
Sibelius Pohjola's Daughter (Sony)
Stravinsky Rite of Spring (Sony, 1958)


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## elgar's ghost

I can't think of a greater all-rounder if we consider his contributions not just to conducting and composing but also his own playing, teaching, lecturing and an eagerness in general to reach out and communicate with people whether they be illustrious contemporaries and colleagues or the average man in the street whose knowledge of CM may be non-existent.

There's a story (possibly apocryphal plus my wording is approximate rather than transcribed) about a youth who excitedly told his father that he was going to study with Bernstein. The father said: 'Watch out for Bernstein, I've heard he's bisexual', to which his son replied: 'Heck, is there NOTHING that man can't do?!'


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## Olias

Huge LB fan! If you haven't seen him rehearse young adults, then you are missing out on some of his greatest magic. I highly recommend this DVD which shows Lenny working with young musicians in the rehearsal and performance of Shostakovich's 1st Symphony. Marvelous.


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## arpeggio

*Bernstein Joke*



elgars ghost said:


> I can't think of a greater all-rounder if we consider his contributions not just to conducting and composing but also his own playing, teaching, lecturing and an eagerness in general to reach out and communicate with people whether they be illustrious contemporaries and colleagues or the average man in the street whose knowledge of CM may be non-existent.
> 
> There's a story (possibly apocryphal plus my wording is approximate rather than transcribed) about a youth who excitedly told his father that he was going to study with Bernstein. The father said: 'Watch out for Bernstein, I've heard he's bisexual', to which his son replied: 'Heck, is there NOTHING that man can't do?!'


I told your joke at band rehersal tonight to my friend and the bassoon section. THEY LOVE IT! :lol:


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## PetrB

Whatever he was or was not, it is many times over reported fact from those who knew and worked with the maestro that his zeal, passion, sentimentality, even to 'gushing' were all absolutely genuine. He would become agonized over how much there was in the least of the repertoire to know, bring out 'right' in a performance that it would keep him up nights and make him anxious, while continuing to plummet those works in great depth.

To me, his Candide (first version) is his masterpiece, and the closest to 'what I think he was.' Second, though I care for it not one jot, would be 'West Side Story.' (whomever does not like 'the story' there does not care, it seems, for Shakespeare's 'Romeo and Juliet'  The bulk of his compositions leave me cold, symphonies, Chichester Psalms, Serenade for Violin and orchestra or all the rest... [just not my cuppa.]

That intense, unstoppable and genuine passion had him educating an entire generation about 'no fear, no class elitism' classical music and its 'accessibility' to all.

That same genuine passion and demonstrable emotionality made his conducting, for me, more than listenable but unwatchable.


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## KenOC

PetrB said:


> That intense, unstoppable and genuine passion had him educating an entire generation about 'no fear, no class elitism' classical music and its 'accessibility' to all.


Agree 100%. Is there a parallel in history to this conductor who wanted to be a "serious" composer but succeeded instead in writing enormously popular works for a much broader audience?


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## arpeggio

*Verdi*



KenOC said:


> Agree 100%. Is there a parallel in history to this conductor who wanted to be a "serious" composer but succeeded instead in writing enormously popular works for a much broader audience?


Verdi. He wrote what many would consider "serious" music and many of the arias from his operas were enormously popular with the general public. Wagner and he were probably the greatest opera composers of the 19th century.

(Note: It is ironic that with the exceptions of a few works, I can not stand either of these composers. When their trains left the station I was not on them. I have always thought that one of the benefits of my music education is that it had taught me to acknowledge great music even when I hated it.)

I am surprised you asked the question. With your knowledge you can probably come up with a bigger list that I can.


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## oogabooha

KenOC said:


> Agree 100%. Is there a parallel in history to this conductor who wanted to be a "serious" composer but succeeded instead in writing enormously popular works for a much broader audience?


There are definitely other composers who have done that, but something that is admirable about Lenny is that he not only wrote popular works, but that he also took inspiration and analysis and perspective from non-classical formats. I remember reading his book called _The Infinite Variety of Music_ and he started off an essay talking about how he would rather listen to Simon & Garfunkel than any "modern" composer. The guy had guts and I love how he was able to talk about any type of music without putting one form of expression over others because it was more scholarly.


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## joen_cph

Did he do any _Neue Wiener Schule_ at all ?

I like his CBS/Sony recordings in particular & recommend those I have, the most of which are:

Haydn 82-87 (cbs)
Haydn 4 Great Masses (cbs)
Mozart 35,39,40,41 (DG, cbs)
Beethoven 1-9 + Choral Fantasy (cbs)
Berlioz Harold (EMI)
Liszt Faust + Boito Mephistofeles Prologue (DG)
Dvorak 9 (philips)
Mahler Das Lied / Israel PO (cbs)
Mahler 1 (cbs + DG)
Debussy La Mer, Jeux, Prelude (cbs)
Stravinsky Sacre/NYPO (philips); Sacre/LSO (cbs), Firebird+Petrouchka (cbs)
Janacek Glagolithic (cbs)
Bartok Music for Strings ... ; Concerto f. 2 Pianos; Concerto for Orchestra (cbs)
Bartok 2.V. Cto, 2 Rhapsodies /Stern (cbs)
Nielsen 2-5, Flute Cto, Clarinet Cto (cbs)
Roussel 3 (cbs)
Ravel Bolero, La Valse, Rapsodie (cbs)
Ravel Cto in G, Shostakovich Cto 2 (cbs)
Sibelius 1-7 (cbs)
Ives: 2,3 Holidays etc. (cbs)
Hindemith: Sinfonia Serena, Weber Metamorphosis (cbs)
Copland: Organ Symphony, Piano Cto; Music for the Theatre; Bernstein: Serenade (cbs)
Bernstein 1-3 (cbs)

and some contemporary music, including

LP Denisov, Schuller, Foss (cbs) etc.

and some others, including various concerto recordings.


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## Vaneyes

No NYD in Vienna for Lenny, which was probably a good decision.


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## Mahlerian

joen_cph said:


> Did he do any _Neue Wiener Schule_ at all ?


Not that he recorded, at any rate, although he expressed respect, if not love, for their music in the Harvard Lectures series he did in the 70s.


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## Sid James

I got Lenny conducting Berg's violin concerto with Isaac Stern on violin (on Sony label). If that's what you mean by Neue Wiener Schule. It is an interpretation that does have strong overtones of Mahler, its a very emotional performance.

I quite like Lenny's music but with his conducting general repertoire I am so-so. But I love him in American repertoire and his own music.

I like how in terms of his 'philosophy' of music, Lenny saw little need for distinguishing between high and low arts. & that was the secret to his success as a composer, I think. I see him as a musical polymath, much like the Liszt of the 20th century.

My favourite works:
Symphonies 1-3
Serenade for violin, strings, percussion (now this work was in part inspired by Berg)
Candide Overture
West Side Story
On The Waterfront - Suite (his only film score, its a classic)
Chichester Psalms
On The Town - both the musical and the 'Three Dance Episodes' drawn from it
Fancy Free ballet


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## KenOC

Sid, "On the Waterfront" is a great suite, maybe not as well known as it might be.


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## Mahlerian

Sid James said:


> I got Lenny conducting Berg's violin concerto with Isaac Stern on violin (on Sony label). If that's what you mean by Neue Wiener Schule. It is an interpretation that does have strong overtones of Mahler, its a very emotional performance.


I stand corrected, then! I should hear that recording.


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## joen_cph

Berg Violin concerto /Stern,Bernstein: 

Definitely one to grab if seen somewhere, it seems.


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## Vaneyes

FTI an extensive LB tribute by Peter Gutmann can be found at Classical Notes.

http://www.classicalnotes.net/features/bernstein.html


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## Sid James

Mahlerian said:


> I stand corrected, then! I should hear that recording.





joen_cph said:


> Berg Violin concerto /Stern,Bernstein:
> 
> Definitely one to grab if seen somewhere, it seems.


This is the recording in question, guys:










They where so young there, Lenny and Isaac Stern. Rarely see a photo of Lenny without the trademark white/strongly greying hair!


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## palJacky

<<<I got Lenny conducting Berg's violin concerto with Isaac Stern on violin (on Sony label). If that's what you mean by Neue Wiener Schule. It is an interpretation that does have strong overtones of Mahler, its a very emotional performance.>>>
I got that on vinyl in the mid seventies when I was in high school.
It was coupled with the two bartok rhapsodies which I actually bought the disc for.

That was my introduction to 'nws' and perhaps the best since it is such a romantic performance of the work.
shortly after it was the Wozzeck Mitropoulos with a repo of munch's 'the scream' on the cover.
I was off and running....

I actually ended up getting all of Berg's work on vinyl before '84 when I got to do it all again on CD.

BTW the CD coupling of the Violin concerto features the an abbado chamber concerto with some strange miking. but nothing too distracting and I find that abbado is very good in Berg even if there often are better out there.


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## Vaneyes

Altered photo, huh? Stern's head looks much bigger than LB's, though LB is closer to 'the camera".


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## Vaneyes

palJacky said:


> ....BTW the CD coupling of the Violin concerto features the an abbado chamber concerto with some strange miking. but nothing too distracting and I find that abbado is very good in Berg even if there often are better out there.


Re miking, no complaints here on this (rec. 1985)...

View attachment 11776


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## Sid James

KenOC said:


> Sid, "On the Waterfront" is a great suite, maybe not as well known as it might be.


Well dunno about the whole thing but the 'love theme' from that score is quite famous. Its the scene between Marlon Brando and Eve Marie Saint in the film, where he dropped her glove and they kept on shooting (its improv). Anyway, I do remember the suite being played on the 'Last Night of the Proms' concert ages ago.

But this 'symphonic suite' as its now called had quite a different history to most suites taken from film scores. Lenny had a bad time working in Hollywood, he wrote to Copland that it was basically the pits for him. A large part of his music did not make it to the film, literally ended up on the cutting room floor. So he took those bits and added them to pivotal moments in the film to make up the suite.

Its yet another reminder of the enduring influence of Mahler on Lenny, the opening horn call of the suite does have a decidedly Mahlerian flavour (again, the 9th symphony comes strongly to my mind there, as with the harp in the opening of Berg's violin concerto, esp. Lenny's interp of it which I said I got). But whatever the influence of Mahler, its pure Bernstein, and even before I saw the film the image of the New York skyline came to my mind when I heard this music. Things like the use of solo sax in this work also adds to that, definitely.


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## palJacky

I just saw "on the waterfront" again recently. 
(love TCM)And as great as the music might be objectively, I think it is an overall failure because it just seems to intrusive for my tastes.

When the music is playing...You know you how important the music is.


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## KenOC

Interesting policial sidelight on the film, from Wiki: "The film is widely considered to be Kazan's answer to those who criticized him for identifying eight (former) Communists in the film industry before the House Committee on Un-American Activities (HUAC) in 1952."


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## Rapide

Bernstein also conduct music of Richard Wagner, including _Tristan und Isolde_. Good to see Bernstein able to enjoy Wagner's music!


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## Rapide

This is one of my favourites under the great maestro.


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## science

http://www.openculture.com/2012/03/leonard_bernsteins_masterful_lectures_on_music.html

Don't know whether that had been posted yet.


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## Weston

^Thanks for that. I have always wanted to see those.


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## Weston

Sorry for the exceeding long post.

For me Leonard Bernstein the composer presents a quandary.

As a red-blooded American geek I absolutely _must_ loathe and abhor musical theater. The silly story lines, the vacuous excuses to launch into trite song with only tenuous connection to the plot, and above all the silly rhythmic and unnatural projected way the spoken lines are delivered in order to be heard on stage is just cringe inducing. I cannot even begin to explain how sick this genre makes me feel inside. I do not begrudge others their enjoyment of it if by some stretch of the imagination they do -- my sister thrives on it for example. It's just that life is too short for me to endure it.

But then there is _West Side Story_.

As a kid growing up I secretly loved Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliette, though at the time I could never reveal this to anyone.

A few years later, when I finally crossed over from the classical world to begin appreciating the less stuffy genres, the progressive rock group Yes covered "Something's Coming" and incorporated a few snippets of material from other parts of the work as well. I thought it such a bizarre and powerful piece I vowed one day to swallow my bile and listen to it in its original context. (I have still yet to do that.)

Yes's cover of "Something's Coming" also used bits of "America" and I became fascinated with its interesting rhythm. And of course, one could not grow up in the US in the 60s and not hear "Somewhere" and remain unmoved, even though it sounds vaguely familiar to Beethoven fans.

Recently I discovered there is an orchestral dance suite which I did not know about. I listened to bits and pieces of it, hoping to find "America" buried somewhere within. Evidently it is missing or I just couldn't find it, because when I stumbled on the swelling strings of "Somewhere" at the end of the suite I confess I burst into tears and could not go on. It's as if all the weight of a hundred thousand years of lost love due to the violence and stupidity of homo saps came crushing down on me, and buried within all that were reminders of my own lost opportunities I will never know about. I'm a sentimental old geek after all, it seems. All this without even having seen the play!

So I want to enjoy Bernstein, especially West Side Story, and I feel it may rise very far above the negatives of all the other musical theater pieces I've had to endure, but I still don't think I can watch / listen to it because of the corny stage voice delivery, and because of the overwhelming emotion at the same time. None of his other works that I have heard come anywhere close to being as interesting.

I am almost disappointed in him for delivering this wonderful tempting music in pills I cannot swallow. Perhaps someday I can consume half a bottle of Scotch and a bottle of Pepto-Bismal and rent the movie version, keeping a box of tissue and an upchuck bucket at hand.


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## oogabooha

oh!, how I long for the score to _Mass_

these lyrics, though:
_
"God said that sex should repulse
Unless it leads to results
And so we crowd the world
Full of consenting adults"_

what a great piece


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## starthrower

Just listened to all three symphonies, and the symphonic suite to On The Waterfront. Very impressive stuff! I found an out of print 2 CD set of the DG symphony recordings for 2 dollars. This, along with the Sony Original Jacket Collection should be all the Bernstein I'll ever need.


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## hpowders

Love "West Side Story" and "Facsimile".


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## Eschbeg

His chamber works are pretty solid, in my opinion. Not revolutionary but they make for perfectly fine _divertissements_.They strike me as what you'd get if you were to breathe some life into Hindemith's chamber music.

Here's the clarinet sonata:






The third movement has some fun ideas in it.


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## hpowders

I have the clarinet sonata. I like it.


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## Berlioznestpasmort

I remember a very poignant sign several members of the audience hoisted in one of his last performances: "Lenny - Please Stop Smoking, We Love You". It was, of course, to no avail.


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## hpowders

Yup! It's a wonder he could conduct Mahler without lighting up.


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## Berlioznestpasmort

hpowders said:


> Yup! It's a wonder he could conduct Mahler without lighting up.


In fact, his Mahler was often incandescent. One of my favorite conductors, to be sure, despite (perhaps because of) the eccentricities. He wasn't a man who could deny himself a pleasure and so, on his deathbed, had one last coffin nail for the road. I try not to hold it against him, but sometimes it's hard not to.


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## Itullian

One of my top 5 conductors.
And a genius.


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## QuietGuy

Oh yes, Leonard Bernstein is a favorite of mine. I liked his more accessible music early on, and I've grown to like his more challenging works like the Serenade, Halil, The Dybbuk. I've always admired the fact that he was so unpretentious (in his writing as well as his music) and a genuine intellectual. Hard to believe he's been gone for over 23 years already!


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## hpowders

I love Facsimile. His show music from West Side Story, Candide and On The Town are quite sparkling too!


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## QuietGuy

A picture is worth a thousand words ....


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## hpowders

QuietGuy said:


> A picture is worth a thousand words ....
> 
> View attachment 37102


Everyone behind him seems asleep.


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## Richannes Wrahms

He was the best educator/ introducer to classical music I know, even if he passed on all those false clichés and assumptions about "the history of western classical music", even if the "Chomskyan perspective" in The Unanswered Question* is ...disposable. 

As a conductor he was a great actor. I don't like his "struggled" Mahler nor his heavy Brahms and Schumann, but I do like his late Sibelius and some of his "I'm not sure if I really like it yet I'll express its universality even when many non-German composers prefer Mozart" Beethoven. 

As a composer he does little to me, he clearly knew his stuff though. 


*Which notably includes himself suffering from one of the worst cases of Tristan und Isolde sickness ever confirmed.


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## hpowders

He was a pretty fair Haydn conductor too.


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## KenOC

hpowders said:


> He was a pretty fair Haydn conductor too.


hpowders, you took my avatar! Fortunately, I just changed mine.


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## hpowders

KenOC said:


> hpowders, you took my avatar! Fortunately, *I just changed mine.*


That's why I assumed it! I pretty much hate Elgar, so I would never assume that one.


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## Morimur

A fair conductor but a composer of little significance.


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## KenOC

hpowders said:


> That's why I assumed it! I pretty much hate Elgar, so I would never assume that one.


You hate Elgar? I bet you never even knew him! I went to school with him and he seemed a nice enough guy.


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## hpowders

KenOC said:


> You hate Elgar? I bet you never even knew him! I went to school with him and he seemed a nice enough guy.


Yeah and I corrected Lincoln's first draft of the Gettysburg Address.

Inside information: in honor of the Jewish people, Abe wished to call it Gettysberg Address, but I thought it might start a war, so I got him to do Gettysburg instead.

I like the violin concerto; little else.


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## hpowders

Bernstein was essentially a musical theater composer and that's where he composed his best work: West Side Story, Candide and On The Town.


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## senza sordino

I saw West Side Story as a kid, at just the time I had my first crush. As a result West Side Story has always had a special place in my heart.


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## hpowders

Yeah. Maria and Tony and those beautiful songs.


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## starthrower

Lope de Aguirre said:


> A fair conductor but a composer of little significance.


*Wrong!!!!!!!!!!*


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## norman bates

I love "Dream with me" from Peter Pan


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## hpowders

Anybody who doesn't think Leonard Bernstein was a great composer needs to listen to the Bernstein Songbook.
Every song on this CD is a masterpiece.


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## oogabooha

hpowders said:


> View attachment 37251
> 
> 
> Anybody who doesn't think Leonard Bernstein was a great composer needs to listen to the Bernstein Songbook.
> Every song on this CD is a masterpiece.


can't agree enough!!!

it's still snowing where I live, but it seems to be spring elsewhere.

thought i'd remind you all of this lovely prelude


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## hpowders

oogabooha said:


> can't agree enough!!!
> 
> it's still snowing where I live, but it seems to be spring elsewhere.
> 
> thought i'd remind you all of this lovely prelude


No doubt about it. Bernstein saved his best composing work for the musical theater.

That album "Bernstein Songbook" is magnificent!


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## hpowders

Bernstein was really at his best as a teacher. He could communicate the wonder of classical music to kids and adults better than anybody!!


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## Lunasong

I am currently reading Bernstein's book _The Joy of Music._ He explained the _Tristan_ chord and how it changed tonality and music forever better than any other source.


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## hpowders

Get his Norton Lectures from Harvard.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

hpowders said:


> That's why I assumed it! I pretty much hate Elgar, so I would never assume that one.


I found something I like about you, hpowders, it's been a long time, but finally I suppose we can unite against a common enemy. 

On the topic of the thread, Bernstein's "Mass" is my favourite mass.


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## Prodromides

Intrada - a soundtrack specialty label - has a new release CD of the original 1954 studio recording sessions from Leonard Bernstein's ON THE WATERFRONT.










The source of this is acetates that have been vaulted for 60 years and recently discovered.

http://store.intrada.com/s.nl/it.A/id.9197/.f?sc=13&category=22848


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## hpowders

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I found something I like about you, hpowders, it's been a long time, but finally I suppose we can unite against a common enemy.
> 
> On the topic of the thread, Bernstein's "Mass" is my favourite mass.


I played the Elgar Symphony No. 1 four times and for the life of me I have never heard such musical stuffiness. I was never so bored.

I imagine this was the kind of music the upper classes on the Titanic were listening to.

Also, don't like me too much.


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## hpowders

Hard to believe it will be 25 years in October since Leonard Bernstein died. He is buried in Brooklyn, New York, my hometown.
The ultimate compliment.


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## Albert7

Bernstein can you help me make it not snow so much here in Salt lake city?


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## hpowders

Leonard Bernstein, can you show some of those young a-holes masquerading as conductors how it's supposed to be done, especially in Mahler?


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## Albert7

hpowders said:


> Leonard Bernstein, can you show some of those young a-holes masquerading as conductors how it's supposed to be done, especially in Mahler?


I can help second that


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## aajj

In his time, there was no greater ambassador for classical music than Bernstein. He continued making great recordings and concerts later with the Vienna Philharmonic, but I think of his time as head of the New York Philharmonic as a golden period. World tours, Young People's Concerts, all kinds of educational appearances and of course a wealth of classic recordings. 

Herbert Blomstedt and the San Francisco Symphony recorded a brilliant set of Nielsen's symphonies but I wonder if it would have happened had Bernstein not championed Nielsen earlier. Same possibly goes for Ives and Michael Tilson Thomas. Not to give Bernstein too much credit but he seems to be a catalyst for the revival of these composers (and of course Mahler, more famously).

Bernstein was also brilliant with his friend Aaron Copland's music. I still prize his Columbia recording of Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition with NYP (1958, i'm pretty sure) above all others. I also love his recording of Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique with the Orchestre National de France, which does not seem to be as well known as it should be. 

West Side Story is eternal. I am also very fond of the Serenade after Plato's Symposium, a de facto violin concerto.


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## hpowders

^^^Yes. Leonard Bernstein was the definitive conductor for Copland's music. His performance of the Appalachian Spring Suite with the New York Philharmonic remains unmatched for its poignancy more than 50 years after they recorded it.


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## aajj

The disc i have contains Bernstein and the NYP performing Appalachian Spring, as well as the suites for Billy the Kid and Rodeo. I've always thought of these recordings as the benchmarks. Another is Bernstein and NYP on Copland's Clarinet Concerto with Stanley Drucker.


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## starthrower

Has anyone read the Bernstein Letters book that's out now? I was thinking of picking up a copy.
http://www.amazon.com/Leonard-Berns...=1424041634&sr=1-1&keywords=leonard+bernstein


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## Triplets

I recently had a listen to LBs first recorded Mahler cycle. It's wonderful how well these recordings hold up in todays crowded market. At the time they were laid down Mahler's music was relatively unfamiliar to most people, although the NY Phil had been exposed to it via Walter and Mitropolous. If I had to choose one Desert Isle Mahler cycle this would be the one.


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## Azol

When Bernstein is conducting, the results could be anything but boring - be it opera, symphony or anything else.
*Verdi - Requiem* (with Arroyo, Domingo, Veasey, Raimondi) - amazing recording, among my absolute favorite Requiems out there.
*Mahler 7* (1974 with Wiener PO) - this was THE performance that made me fall in love with this "difficult" work. No wonder Mahler's Seventh renaissance in modern performance began with Bernstein.
*Tristan und Isolde* (with Behrens and Hoffman) turns into an ecstatic poem under baton of Bernstein (48-minute love scene in Act II? You bet!)


----------



## QuietGuy

science said:


> http://www.openculture.com/2012/03/leonard_bernsteins_masterful_lectures_on_music.html
> 
> Don't know whether that had been posted yet.


The Harvard lectures are also on youtube, complete.

Index to all 6: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=bernstein+harvard+lectures


----------



## Albert7

Your Mass is so awesome. I really enjoyed it quite a bit.


----------



## Lord Lance

albertfallickwang said:


> Your Mass is so awesome. I really enjoyed it quite a bit.


And Candide. The opera/musical suite/extravaganza/work for orchestra with singers.


----------



## Lord Lance

One of these months, I'll keep Lennie month. Entire month of listening to Bernie's New York recordings with DG recordings and the occasional video performances. [Despite being a fan, yes, I too find his eccentric, over-the-top conducting distracting.]

Such a high calibre for all his recordings. Coupled with unmatched levels of passions. Add to that: Consistency of excellence. Rarely matched. [Karajan probably did.]

That should be exciting!


----------



## omega

albertfallickwang said:


> Your Mass is so awesome. I really enjoyed it quite a bit.


I haven't listened to it yet. But the _Chisester Psalms_ are among my favourites!


----------



## Blancrocher

omega said:


> I haven't listened to it yet. But the _Chisester Psalms_ are among my favourites!


Incidentally, I recently read John Adam's autobiography, "Hallelujah Junction," where he mentions having sent Bernstein a very critical and insulting letter after having heard the piece (which, he says, he regretted doing after learning that Bernstein was going through agonizing self-doubts about his composing at that time).

Anyways, I agree with you: I think it's a wonderful work.


----------



## Polyphemus

Another Bernstein classic :-


----------



## hpowders

I haven't heard that one.


----------



## Dave Whitmore

What a fantastic conductor Bernstein was. When I have a selection of videos to choose from on any piece of music and I see one with Lenny conducting that's the one I pick. He made me fall in love with Beethoven's Pastoral symphony where previously I'd only liked it. I intend to buy the box set of Bernstein conducting all nine Beethoven symphonies as soon as I can.


----------



## Itullian

Dave Whitmore said:


> What a fantastic conductor Bernstein was. When I have a selection of videos to choose from on any piece of music and I see one with Lenny conducting that's the one I pick. He made me fall in love with Beethoven's Pastoral symphony where previously I'd only liked it. I intend to buy the box set of Bernstein conducting all nine Beethoven symphonies as soon as I can.


YUP, Agree with you Dave. Always from the heart.


----------



## Albert7

I enjoyed your West Side Story quite a bit. Always a wonderful selection of songs.


----------



## Albert7

I always enjoyed your West Side Story. Very melodic songs!


----------



## Pugg

Azol said:


> When Bernstein is conducting, the results could be anything but boring - be it opera, symphony or anything else.
> *Verdi - Requiem* (with Arroyo, Domingo, Veasey, Raimondi) - amazing recording, among my absolute favorite Requiems out there.
> *Mahler 7* (1974 with Wiener PO) - this was THE performance that made me fall in love with this "difficult" work. No wonder Mahler's Seventh renaissance in modern performance began with Bernstein.
> *Tristan und Isolde* (with Behrens and Hoffman) turns into an ecstatic poem under baton of Bernstein (48-minute love scene in Act II? You bet!)


The most_ sensual_ /_ erotic_ version ever :tiphat:


----------



## DavidA

Dave Whitmore said:


> What a fantastic conductor Bernstein was. When I have a selection of videos to choose from on any piece of music and I see one with Lenny conducting that's the one I pick. He made me fall in love with Beethoven's Pastoral symphony where previously I'd only liked it. I intend to buy the box set of Bernstein conducting all nine Beethoven symphonies as soon as I can.


During his life the reviews of his recordings were never that good. I remember Derek Cooke calling his recording of Mahler 2 "Monstous". It's only since his death he has begun to be appreciated. Which goes to show that populaising classical music doesn't please the establishment!


----------



## hpowders

What I found incredible about Leonard Bernstein was his ability to always experiment and grow as a conductor-he loved to play a familiar piece differently over the years. Some conductors would perform a Beethoven, Haydn or Brahms symphony with similar timings over the years. Hardly a noticeable difference. Not Mr. Bernstein.

I liked the way he would adopt the latest scholarship into his Haydn symphony performances-taking trills on the upper note, for example.

(Erich Leinsdorf, though not as great a conductor, would also never play the same piece the same way twice.)


----------



## Polyphemus

albertfallickwang said:


> I always enjoyed your West Side Story. Very melodic songs!


Bernstein at his best writing for the musical theatre.


----------



## elgar's ghost

I still want to listen to his _A White House Cantata _- a work posthumously salvaged from the stage flop _1600 Pennsylvania Avenue._ Its failure must have hurt him bearing in mind his previous success in the theatre. Apart from that the only large-scale work of his I don't have is _Trouble In Tahiti/A Quiet Place_.


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## hpowders

If you don't have it yet, I recommend the Leonard Bernstein Songbook-a dazzling display of his greatest songs, and there are many!


----------



## Albert7

hpowders said:


> If you don't have it yet, I recommend the Leonard Bernstein Songbook-a dazzling display of his greatest songs, and there are many!


That sounds good hpowders... I will have to check it out relatively soon. I know that Bernstein was a most marvelous orchestrator and he was able to capture nuances of characters... Especially in West Side Story for sure.


----------



## echo

he was also a great teacher

the bit at 14:05 is one of my favs


----------



## hpowders

To find out how great a teacher Leonard Bernstein was, listen to the Norton lectures he gave at Harvard.


----------



## elgar's ghost

I hope there are some serious centenary celebrations planned in two years time - I'm not usually one who endorses razzamatazz but Leonard Bernstein is one of the select few who deserves the whole full-on ticker-tape parade treatment whether alive or dead.


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT

Azol said:


> *Tristan und Isolde* (with Behrens and Hoffman) turns into an ecstatic poem under baton of Bernstein


Oddly enough, I've been listening a lot to Lenny's _Tristan_ this past week. I've always liked it, but I'd forgotten just how wonderful it is; on reflection, I'd probably include it in my Top 5 recordings of this magnificent work.


----------



## Pugg

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Oddly enough, I've been listening a lot to Lenny's _Tristan_ this past week. I've always liked it, but I'd forgotten just how wonderful it is; on reflection, I'd probably include it in my Top 5 recordings of this magnificent work.


Number one for me


----------



## Vaneyes

LB on composing (1966)...

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2...ical-archive-1966-leonard-bernstein-interview


----------



## Pugg

Those Videos with him speaking about music are heart warming, must see for all his fans. :tiphat:


----------



## sctubes

Just celebrated his birthday by listening to him with the NY Phil conducting his three symphonies.


----------



## hpowders

Have you heard Bernstein conduct his Facsimile? In my opinion, one of his greatest, most heartfelt works.


----------



## Azol

I celebrated by watching Mahler 10 Adagio with Israel Philharmonic. Bernstein conducting - it's like a music within music.


----------



## Pugg

Azol said:


> I celebrated by watching Mahler 10 Adagio with Israel Philharmonic. Bernstein conducting - it's like a music within music.


This is on my list for today;

Haydn: The Creation

Judith Blegen, Lucia Popp, Thomas Moser, Kurt Ollmann & Kurt Moll

Chor des Bayerischen Rundfunks & Symphonieorchoster des Bayerischen Rundfunks, Leonard Bernstein


----------



## Merl

He isn't my fave conductor but I greatly admire his Mahler and other individual performances. Never rated his Beethoven but that live 9th he did in Berlin is something special.


----------



## Blancrocher

A discussion by David Denby of Jamie Bernstein's family memoir.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/06/25/leonard-bernstein-through-his-daughters-eyes

The opening: "What happens if you are Cinderella and the prince turns out to be your father?"


----------



## Larkenfield




----------



## Templeton

Britain's 'Daily Mail' has just paid 'hommage' to Bernstein in the only way it knows, with an article on his daughter's new book.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5899063/TOM-LEONARD-Leonard-Bernsteins-reputation-survive-daughters-unsettling-book.html


----------



## Star

Templeton said:


> Britain's 'Daily Mail' has just paid 'hommage' to Bernstein in the only way it knows, with an article on his daughter's new book.
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5899063/TOM-LEONARD-Leonard-Bernsteins-reputation-survive-daughters-unsettling-book.html


I don't think this new book will tell us much we didn't know already about Bernstein's promiscuous nature. Bernsteins sympathetic biography, Humphrey Burton, tells of letters which reside in the archives which he describes as 'shocking'. One wonders whether if Bernstein was still around today he might be named along with Levine and Dutois. Or perhaps as Jamie says: 'In my family universe, LB's ambition and grandiosity were tolerated. In the rest of us, such behaviour was unacceptable."
A tremendous musician nevertheless and a great communicator. As a composer of serious music decidedly second rank, but a man who in Weat Side Story produced one of the greatest musicals ever


----------



## Josquin13

I'm going to go a little bit against the tide here. I find Leonard Bernstein's conducting to be erratic--either very good or bad, and not a whole lot in between. & I'm of the opinion that his later DG recordings from the 1980s are generally more inconsistent and relatively inferior to his earlier Columbia recordings. Although, with that said, I admire that he took risks as a conductor. It's certainly better to take risks, in order to be more daring and alive in performance, than to be safe, repetitive, and predictable. (Bernstein could never be accused of the latter.) I just find his risk taking and conducting more interesting in the 1960s and 70s.

Take his Eroica, for example. I confess I don't like many Eroica recordings. For me, most conductors fail when they conduct this symphony. But not Bernstein. He had a special understanding of the Eroica. However, if you compare his early Columbia recording of the Eroica to his later DG account, the earlier one is the better performance, from a conducting standpoint--at least in my view. Granted, it's a work that he had a real affinity for--so I'm not saying that the later Eroica is a bad performance. It's just that the earlier 3rd is one of the better conducted Eroicas on record I think. It's more crisp, biting, & dynamic than his Vienna performance.






I find this brief lecture indicative of the kind of depth of thought that Bernstein brought to the Eroica:






(He was also quite perceptive and insightful in the following discussion of Beethoven's 6th & 7th, with actor Maximilian Schell:




)

I generally feel the same way about Bernstein's Columbia Mahler cycle versus the excesses (& distortions) of his later DG Mahler cycle. For all the high drama and angst of the later cycle, strangely, it's the earlier cycle that I find more passionate and alive, & more deeply felt. The later cycle is full of bluster and can at times sound more hollow to me, in comparison. Indeed, I would unhesitatingly recommend the earlier Mahler cycle as one of the finest in the catalogue (especially in the new DSD remasters, which have improved the sound quality: https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Compl...d=1530297120&sr=1-1&keywords=mahler+bernstein), but would have some reservations about recommending the DG cycle, as the conducting is more erratic, even within the same performance: Such as with his Mahler 2nd, which is wildly drawn out and over the top in the final movement, after a near perfect Urlicht movement. The ending doesn't work for me, though it is an admirable attempt to take Mahler's finale to its furthest possible limits. For me, Bernstein's earlier Mahler 2nds on Columbia--both in New York and from Ely Cathedral--are better. Indeed, his finest Mahler 2nd is the live one from Ely Cathedral, with a young Janet Baker singing the Urlicht movement so beautifully. It's one of the great Mahler 2nds on record, IMO, but unfortunately, the sound quality is far from ideal, which is a pity.






The following represents Bernstein at his very best in Mahler, IMO:





All conductors have certain composers that they have a greater affinity for than others, and for me, Bernstein's best composer was Haydn. His depth of insight into Haydn's symphonies is quite rare and remarkable.






And then, I think Bernstein was at his best in Mahler's 2nd (from Ely Cathedral), 3rd, 7th, and 9th Symphonies (though his Columbia 9th is his best Mahler 9th, IMO). Those are the recordings that I most treasure by Bernstein, along with his fine Eroica on Sony, and a very exciting Brahms Academic Festival Overture from Vienna (on DG).






As for the worst recording by Bernstein, I'd say without hesitation that its his overly slow, rather schmaltzy Elgar Variations on DG. But then, how like Bernstein to attempt an interpretation that is so many miles away from what Sir Adrian Boult gave us in this music:






P.S. Here are some other Bernstein recordings that I've liked over the years:

Berlioz--Harold in Italy, Donald McInnes on viola, with the Orchestre de Paris, EMI.
Berlioz--Symphonie Fantastique, Orchestre de Paris, EMI.

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias=popular&field-keywords=Bernstein+berlioz

Haydn--Paukenmesse & Missi in tempore belli--Bavarian Radio S.O. & chorus, Philips.
Haydn--12 London & 6 Paris Symphonies/Die Schopfung/4 Masses, New York Philharmonic, Sony:

https://www.amazon.com/Haydn-London...30322002&sr=1-5&keywords=haydn+mass+bernstein
https://www.amazon.com/Leonard-Bern..._rd_t=40701&psc=1&refRID=05DMAMP3FF9RFEZJQ6AN

R. Strauss--Der Rosenkavalier, Vienna Philharmonic:
https://www.amazon.com/Strauss-Rose...&keywords=strauss+bernstein+der+rosenkavalier

He was also excellent with the music of American composers--Schuman, Copland, Barber, Harris, etc.


----------



## San Antone

I like his composition _Mass_. A lot.


----------



## DavidA

Bernstein's Falstaff is really good. So alive and energetic even if you don't like D F-D as the fat knight. I have no problem btw. Yet his Carmen is atrocious imo. Tempi all over the place. You cannot see how such a sensitive musician could produce something of such bad taste.


----------



## DavidA

San Antone said:


> I like his composition _Mass_. A lot.


I think it's terrible. Sorry! Absolute stinker!


----------



## San Antone

DavidA said:


> I think it's terrible. Sorry! Absolute stinker!


Yeah, I am aware of that opinion. Nonetheless ... call it a guilty pleasure.


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT

DavidA said:


> Bernstein's Falstaff is really good. So alive and energetic even if you don't like D F-D as the fat knight. I have no problem btw.


Agreed, it's wonderful. I like Fischer-Dieskau's characterisation of the title rôle, too.


----------



## Weird Heather

This is a good year to hear Bernstein's compositions. Since it is his centennial year, orchestras have been performing more of his music than usual. Earlier this year, I got to hear "Serenade after Plato's Symposium" and the "Jeremiah" Symphony performed by the San Diego Symphony. Both were wonderful to hear live.

For those who live in southern California, there are more options to hear his music live. On October 25-27, the Pacific Symphony in Costa Mesa is performing a Bernstein concert, including "Chichester Psalms" and many other works. On November 3, the Redlands Symphony is performing a concert largely devoted to his music, including "On the Waterfront," Symphony No. 2, selections from "West Side Story", and the overture to "Candide." There may be others in the area; I need to do more research. I intend to go to both of these concerts unless something comes up to prevent it.

Fans of Bernstein's music should check the concert schedules of orchestras and other performers in their area; although some concerts have already happened, there should be more opportunities in the fall to hear his music.


----------



## Gordontrek

Happy 100th, Lenny! What a tremendous legacy he left behind. I'll be enjoying my favorites from West Side Story and Candide today.


----------



## SanAntone

Bernstein is on my Top Ten list of composers.

There are so many works of his that I love:

West Side Story
Symphony No. 2 
Facsimile
Dybbuk
Candide
On the Waterfront Suite
Missa Brevis
Serenade
Divertimento
CBS Music
Fancy Free Suite
The Anniversaries
The Lark

*But my absolute favorite work of his is Mass.*


----------



## Olias

Nothing like bumping a three year old thread, but let's go with it. 

My favorite Bernstein work is probably the "Jeremiah" Symphony. The recording he did with the Israel Philharmonic is so poignant. After that, I think "Prelude Fugue and Riffs", "Candide", and parts of "Mass" are my favorites (particularly the Sanctus, Agnus Dei, and God Said).


----------



## SanAntone

People often repeat the initial critical response that Mass is a failure as a work. However, I believe that opinion has matured, and especially with conductors. Since 2004 there have been five recordings, two of them since 2018.

I've been a fan since the first recording in 1971 and have been frustrated that so many people dismiss the work, so it is a nice turn of events to see the work being embraced by a variety of conductors.


----------



## Neo Romanza

SanAntone said:


> People often repeat the initial critical response that Mass is a failure as a work. However, I believe that opinion has matured, and especially with conductors. Since 2004 there have been five recordings, two of them since 2018.
> 
> I've been a fan since the first recording in 1971 and have been frustrated that so many people dismiss the work, so it is a nice turn of events to see the work being embraced by a variety of conductors.


Why would it frustrate you that people don't like the _Mass_? I'm asking because I'm just not fond of it. There are some sections that are quite good like the _Meditations_ for example, but, overall, it's a hodgepodge that just doesn't add up to a coherent whole. Bernstein has done a good job with mixing high and low arts into something remarkable in many works, but the _Mass_ fails to engage this listener.

And this is coming from someone who is a fan of the composer's music.


----------



## SanAntone

Neo Romanza said:


> Why would it frustrate you that people don't like the _Mass_? I'm asking because I'm just not fond of it. There are some sections that are quite good like the _Meditations_ for example, but, overall, it's a hodgepodge that just doesn't add up to a coherent whole. Bernstein has done a good job with mixing high and low arts into something remarkable in many works, but the _Mass_ fails to engage this listener.
> 
> And this is coming from someone who is a fan of the composer's music.


I am no longer frustrated (I should have written "had been") since as I wrote, a number of conductors have chosen to record the work more recently, indicating a more positive appraisal of the work since the '70s. I consider it Bernstein's masterpiece and was never deserving of the harsh criticism, and am happy that critical opinion seems to have moved in my direction.


----------



## Neo Romanza

SanAntone said:


> Bernstein is on my Top Ten list of composers.
> 
> There are so many works of his that I love:
> 
> West Side Story
> Symphony No. 2
> Facsimile
> Dybbuk
> Candide
> On the Waterfront Suite
> Missa Brevis
> Serenade
> Divertimento
> CBS Music
> Fancy Free Suite
> The Anniversaries
> The Lark
> 
> *But my absolute favorite work of his is Mass.*


My list wouldn't look much like your own, but if I were going to do a 'Top 5', my list would be (in no particular order):

_Symphony No. 2, "The Age of Anxiety"
West Side Story
Serenade, after Plato's Symposium 
Halil
Chichester Psalms_


----------



## Neo Romanza

SanAntone said:


> I am no longer frustrated (I should have written "had been") since as I wrote, a number of conductors have chosen to record the work more recently, indicating a more positive appraisal of the work since the '70s. I consider it Bernstein's masterpiece and was never deserving of the harsh criticism, and am happy that critical opinion seems to have moved in my direction.


I guess what I'm not understanding is your need to be frustrated by the work's failure to begin with. Who cares if it's not a work that every notable conductor takes up and performs. I'm not going to say the _Mass_ deserves to be dragged through the mud, but I personally have no objection to it being maligned. There's a lot of people that think Messiaen's _Quatuor pour la fin du temps_ is a terrible work, but this hasn't stopped it from being performed and recorded. If there's anything to actually have been frustrated about it should be _why_ isn't Bernstein as a composer respected more? That's the million dollar question.


----------



## SanAntone

Neo Romanza said:


> I guess what I'm not understanding is your need to be frustrated by the work's failure to begin with.


I was frustrated in the same way if a friend of mine was being criticized unfairly. And the work was not a failure, at least not in the audience's response at the premier. And the initial reviews were raves. It was only after one prominent critic wrote a scathing review about two weeks later that the work began to come under attack.

You are welcome to your opinion, but thankfully, over the last two decades, more people have come around to my way of thinking about Mass.


----------



## Neo Romanza

SanAntone said:


> I was frustrated in the same way if a friend of mine was being criticized unfairly.


I don't really buy that analogy. What it sounds like to me is you believed that people should think the same way you do and, thankfully, they don't.


----------



## Heck148

SanAntone said:


> Bernstein is on my Top Ten list of composers.
> 
> There are so many works of his that I love:
> 
> West Side Story
> Symphony No. 2
> Facsimile
> Dybbuk
> Candide
> On the Waterfront Suite
> Missa Brevis
> Serenade
> Divertimento
> CBS Music
> Fancy Free Suite
> The Anniversaries
> The Lark
> 
> *But my absolute favorite work of his is Mass.*


I'd add "On the Town"- 3 dances...


----------



## starthrower

I like the 3rd symphony. But only the DG recording with the male monologist. I was fortunate to experience a live performance of Candide a few years ago and it was fantastic. I don't even bother trying to listen to the old recording after that thrilling and hilarious live show.


----------



## SanAntone

starthrower said:


> I like the 3rd symphony. But only the DG recording with the male monologist. I was fortunate to experience a live performance of Candide a few years ago and it was fantastic. I don't even bother trying to listen to the old recording after that thrilling and hilarious live show.


I generally prefer the Columbia recordings, but I will try the DG 3rd and see how it is. My most recent exposure to it was Alsop's on Naxos with Claire Bloom as narrator.


----------



## SanAntone

Heck148 said:


> I'd add "On the Town"- 3 dances...


_On the Town_ (musical) was based on _Fancy Free_ (ballet), but I've never done a head-to-head comparison between the two suites.

I'd forgotten about this LP, which I have - so to the turntable it goes.

*Bernstein Conducts Fancy Free; Candide Overture; On the Town; Prelude, Fugue & Riffs*


----------



## starthrower

The DG is a good sounding dynamic recording and the male speaker has a great voice. I haven't listened to the Columbia recording with Bernstein's wife in quite some time but I remember her sounding quite strained. I have the Sony ten CD box set so I'll have to unpack it for a revisit of some of the pieces.


----------



## eljr

Neo Romanza said:


> I guess what I'm not understanding is your need to be frustrated by the work's failure to begin with.... _why_ isn't Bernstein as a composer respected more? That's the million dollar question.


Stating an opinion as fact is generally either deceitful or pompous. Here you have done it twice.

my heartfelt advice, enjoy music

I live by the self coined expression, "There is good music and there is great music. There is no bad music."

It makes for a most pleasant life.

Peace


----------



## Neo Romanza

eljr said:


> Stating an opinion as fact is generally either deceitful or pompous. Here you have done it twice.
> 
> my heartfelt advice, enjoy music
> 
> I live by the self coined expression, "There is good music and there is great music. There is no bad music."
> 
> It makes for a most pleasant life.
> 
> Peace


I'm not stating my opinion as "fact", I'm just wondering why isn't Bernstein more appreciated as a composer? Because in my experience on classical forums and conversing with listeners, this seems to be the case. There's nothing "deceitful" or "pompous" about asking an honest question.

That's fine if you live by that self-coined expression. I personally don't, so there's no need for you to assume I would. I believe there is bad music out there just like there is good music.

I think this Duke Ellington quote makes more sense to me: "There are simply two kinds of music: there's good music and then there's the other kind."


----------



## SanAntone

Heck148 said:


> I'd add "On the Town"- 3 dances...





SanAntone said:


> _On the Town_ (musical) was based on _Fancy Free_ (ballet), but I've never done a head-to-head comparison between the two suites.
> 
> I'd forgotten about this LP, which I have - so to the turntable it goes.
> 
> *Bernstein Conducts Fancy Free; Candide Overture; On the Town; Prelude, Fugue & Riffs*


I am nearing the end of this LP, the third movement of _Prelude, fugues & Riffs_ is playing - what a fun piece!

The _Fancy Free Suite_ is a much more substantial work than the Three Dance Episodes from _On the Town_ - but they are very different works. The _On the Town_ second episode is very nice, and focuses on music only hinted at in the larger Fancy Free suite.

The LP is a wonderful collection - very enjoyable listen.


----------



## starthrower

As far as Bernstein being respected as a composer, every opinion I've heard expressed by musicians and colleagues in media interviews and print was of the highest respect concerning his skills as a musician and composer. Of course he spread himself thin with all of his other interests and ambitions so he didn't have as much time to dedicate to composing. Samuel Barber had all the time in the world but didn't produce a large amount of great works due to his insecurities and sensitivity to negative reviews and the possibility of failure.


----------



## Neo Romanza

starthrower said:


> As far as Bernstein being respected as a composer, every opinion I've heard expressed by musicians and colleagues in media interviews and print was of the highest respect concerning his skills as a musician and composer. Of course he spread himself thin with all of his other interests and ambitions so he didn't have as much time to dedicate to composing. Samuel Barber had all the time in the world but didn't produce a large amount of great works due to his insecurities and sensitivity to negative reviews and the possibility of failure.


And what do you we make of Carl Ruggles' oeuvre? LOL...he makes Barber look prolific.  Anyway, I was aware that Bernstein was respected by the musicians that he worked with and so forth, but what about the general consensus of classical listeners? I seldom see anyone mention him on forums and only _West Side Story_ seems to be the work they know well.


----------



## starthrower

Interesting because I hardly ever listen to West Side Story. Makes me think many of these opinions may have been based on a very narrow listening experience concerning his music. But I'm not a big fan of some of the show tunes in that work. I'll take the wit and satire of Candide over West Side Story every time.


----------



## SanAntone

starthrower said:


> Interesting because I hardly ever listen to West Side Story. Makes me think many of these opinions may have been based on a very narrow listening experience concerning his music. But I'm not a big fan of some of the show tunes in that work. I'll take the wit and satire of Candide over West Side Story every time.


_West Side Story_ is a classic Broadway musical, and the writing on all counts, book, lyrics and music, IMO, are at a very high level. Although Sondheim has criticized himself, picking out some specific lyrics ("America") that he would have written differently, still acknowledges his experience as formative and valuable.

That said, WSS is not my favorite work of Bernstein's (we all know which one that is) - but I still regularly listen to it and even watched the movie within the last year.

I am still re-acquainting myself with some of his works which I'd never focused on, _Halil_, _Songfest_, and some others - there's a lot there to digest.


----------



## Neo Romanza

starthrower said:


> Interesting because I hardly ever listen to West Side Story. Makes me think many of these opinions may have been based on a very narrow listening experience concerning his music. But I'm not a big fan of some of the show tunes in that work. I'll take the wit and satire of Candide over West Side Story every time.


I like _Candide_ and _West Side Story_. They're both equally great in my view. The recent-ish recording of _West Side Story_ with Tilson Thomas was hugely enjoyable. I kind of wished he had done _Candide_, too, but beggars can't be choosers as they say.


----------



## starthrower

I'm not criticizing the quality of the work but for me personally it's not a favorite. It's his most famous work so I understand the public's attraction to it at the exclusion of much of his other work.


----------



## Neo Romanza

SanAntone said:


> _West Side Story_ is a classic Broadway musical, and the writing on all counts, book, lyrics and music, IMO, are at a very high level. Although Sondheim has criticized himself, picking out some specific lyrics ("America") that he would have written differently, still acknowledges his experience as formative and valuable.
> 
> That said, WSS is not my favorite work of Bernstein's (we all know which one that is) - but I still regularly listen to it and even watched the movie within the last year.
> 
> I am still re-acquainting myself with some of his works which I'd never focused on, _Halil_, _Songfest_, and some others - there's a lot there to digest.


_Songfest_ is fantastic, San Antone. I gave this a listen for the first-time last year and it was an impressive work. The Bernstein conducted performance on DG and the Slatkin recording on RCA (reissued in the Bernstein _Composer_ Sony box) are both excellent. Of course, _Halil_ is one of my favorites from Bernstein. There's a sadness in this work that appeals to me or, at least, this is how I hear the work, but it does have a faster section that is particularly exciting.


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## Neo Romanza

starthrower said:


> *I'm not criticizing the quality of the work* but for me personally it's not a favorite. It's his most famous work so I understand the public's attraction to it at the exclusion of much of his other work.


I didn't say you were, but just giving my own opinion that I like both _West Side Story_ and _Candide_ equally.


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## Neo Romanza

SanAntone said:


> I generally prefer the Columbia recordings, but I will try the DG 3rd and see how it is. My most recent exposure to it was Alsop's on Naxos with Claire Bloom as narrator.


I never understood your ambivalence about the Bernstein DG recordings. They're fantastic and, most of all, feature new works from him that make the DG set a must-own if you love this composer's music.


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## starthrower

Neo Romanza said:


> I didn't say you were, but just giving my own opinion that I like both _West Side Story_ and _Candide_ equally.


Understood! I was just clarifying. I remember reading in Miles Davis's autobiography that he said he was approached by Columbia to do an album of West Side Story music and he said he thought the music was corny. Then they asked him about doing an album of Dr. Dolittle. He said he wouldn't touch that sh#t with a ten foot pole, lol!


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## pianozach

Funny, but when *Bernstein* is mentioned, I think of him *first* as a *conductor*, then _*pianist*_, then _*music ambassador*_, THEN *composer*.

In fact, he _*IS*_ my favorite conductor. He's never disappointed me.

Yes, *West Side Story* is a work that is practically unparalleled in Musical Theatre, and *Candide* isn't far behind. I like the concepts and orchestrations in his *Mass*, but find it difficult to ever muster a complete listen-through. Maybe I'll put that on my to-do list. The rest? Completely unfamiliar with them, but I'm sure they've got to be good.


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## pianozach

SanAntone said:


> _On the Town_ (musical) was based on _Fancy Free_ (ballet), but I've never done a head-to-head comparison between the two suites.
> 
> I'd forgotten about this LP, which I have - so to the turntable it goes.
> 
> *Bernstein Conducts Fancy Free; Candide Overture; On the Town; Prelude, Fugue & Riffs*


Years ago a choreographer I knew was given a chance to direct a production of ON THE TOWN as his directorial debut.

Obviously it's a dance show, and he had done a great deal of preparation. With weeks of rehearsals down, and a week before the show opened, the small pit orchestra was brought in.

He had choreographed everything as though he were going to be performing the film version, but MTI sent the scores for the STAGE production, which is the only version they license. With a week before opening he had to change practically EVERYTHING he'd rehearsed.


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## SanAntone

starthrower said:


> Understood! I was just clarifying. I remember reading in Miles Davis's autobiography that he said he was approached by Columbia to do an album of West Side Story music and he said he thought the music was corny. Then they asked him about doing an album of Dr. Dolittle. He said he wouldn't touch that sh#t with a ten foot pole, lol!


One thing can be said about Miles, besides being a great Jazz trumpeter, he was opinionated. The irony is that after _Porgy & Bess_, _West Side Story_ has probably been the show Jazz musicians have played most.


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## Neo Romanza

Don't forget to link people to your blog article about the _Mass_, SanAntone. It was an interesting article and well-researched. You clearly love this work. But I think it's important for me to say that while I don't love the work, I appreciate it's ambition and the sheer scope of it. I've heard three different versions of the _Mass_: the Bernstein on Columbia (Sony), Nagano and Alsop. Bernstein is clearly the frontrunner here, but I thought the Alsop recording was quite good. Nagano didn't do much for me even though I do like his conducting in general.


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## Olias

I guess this would be the place to post a link to the Bernstein video playlist I put together on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDBnumuuGWld7G3Esrw8aZFH8BoSGPqIw

96 videos...so far.


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## cyberstudio

I am thinking of buying one of his box sets. Because of his enormous output there are several available. Which would you suggest? I am inclined towards newer music, like Stostakovich, Nielsen (his Nielsen is really awesome), Copland, Ives, Sibelius, etc. and himself.


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## SanAntone

Neo Romanza said:


> Don't forget to link people to your blog article about the _Mass_, SanAntone. It was an interesting article and well-researched. You clearly love this work. But I think it's important for me to say that while I don't love the work, I appreciate it's ambition and the sheer scope of it. I've heard three different versions of the _Mass_: the Bernstein on Columbia (Sony), Nagano and Alsop. Bernstein is clearly the frontrunner here, but I thought the Alsop recording was quite good. Nagano didn't do much for me even though I do like his conducting in general.


Thanks for the plug: *Leonard Bernstein's Mass : Newer Recordings*. I actually have info on all the recordings.

Yes, I do love the work, and don't consider it a guilty pleasure.


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## Olias

SanAntone said:


> Thanks for the plug: *Leonard Bernstein's Mass : Newer Recordings*. I actually have info on all the recordings.
> 
> Yes, I do love the work, and don't consider it a guilty pleasure.


I recently got Alsop's box set of her Bernstein recordings and really enjoyed her Mass.


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## jegreenwood

pianozach said:


> Years ago a choreographer I knew was given a chance to direct a production of ON THE TOWN as his directorial debut.
> 
> Obviously it's a dance show, and he had done a great deal of preparation. With weeks of rehearsals down, and a week before the show opened, the small pit orchestra was brought in.
> 
> He had choreographed everything as though he were going to be performing the film version, but MTI sent the scores for the STAGE production, which is the only version they license. With a week before opening he had to change practically EVERYTHING he'd rehearsed.


I've seen _On the Town_ twice and _Fancy Free_ once, so I'm no expert, but I don't recall much overlap in the music. As for stage vs. film version of _On the Town_ the film replaces most of Bernstein's score. I've read that MGM couldn't hum the Bernstein, but one also needs to take into account that the stage version ran during WWII while the movie is from after it. The darker undercurrent of the stage version does not carry over.


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## Sid James

Here's an article on the Spielberg remake of_ West Side Story_. I think that its discussion of the racial politics of the musical is interesting, and topical considering events of recent years in the USA. Incidentally, I haven't even seen the original movie, although I did own the best selling soundtrack recording featuring Marni Nixon (uncredited) singing the role of Maria (played by Natalie Wood).

https://theswaddle.com/do-problematic-classics-like-west-side-story-deserve-remakes/

_The public discourse was parochial: like a narrative West Side Story sold, the Puerto Rican community was seen as people without education and those prone to violence...

Arthur Laurents, one of the original creators, himself said in a 2008 interview: "Because of our own bias and the cultural conventions of 1957, it was almost impossible for the characters in West Side Story to have authenticity." Even now, the story relies on aesthetics laid out by four white men and their perception of the Puerto Rican identity.

...Reimagining a classic can work to correct the gaps of its predecessor - but that only works if the gaps are recognized in the first place.

As Herrera noted: "criticism emerges from a place of love - a desire to make art, life, and politics better. I don't see these critiques as mutually exclusive."
_


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## Guest

Sid James said:


> Here's an article on the Spielberg remake of_ West Side Story_. I think that its discussion of the racial politics of the musical is interesting, and topical considering events of recent years in the USA. Incidentally, I haven't even seen the original movie, although I did own the best selling soundtrack recording featuring Marni Nixon (uncredited) singing the role of Maria (played by Natalie Wood).
> 
> https://theswaddle.com/do-problematic-classics-like-west-side-story-deserve-remakes/
> 
> _The public discourse was parochial: like a narrative West Side Story sold, the Puerto Rican community was seen as people without education and those prone to violence...
> 
> Arthur Laurents, one of the original creators, himself said in a 2008 interview: "Because of our own bias and the cultural conventions of 1957, it was almost impossible for the characters in West Side Story to have authenticity." Even now, the story relies on aesthetics laid out by four white men and their perception of the Puerto Rican identity.
> 
> ...Reimagining a classic can work to correct the gaps of its predecessor - but that only works if the gaps are recognized in the first place.
> 
> As Herrera noted: "criticism emerges from a place of love - a desire to make art, life, and politics better. I don't see these critiques as mutually exclusive."
> _


Not like "Madam Butterfly", though, aye.


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## Heck148

The new "West Side Story" movie is very good, highly recommended...I love the original stage show the best, I've played it jillions of times, a great book to play...overall, my favorite musical....
this new take is very fine, tho - excellent leads....the singing and choreography are very good overall...
Gustavo Dudamel conducted the orchestra - it's good but doesn't match the original cast soundtrack [Goberman] or Bernstein's studio take, but it's still does the job ok. 
They've expanded a few of the big numbers, and padded the story a little here and there, but it works...It allows for a bit more character development, which is ok...and in no way distorts the original story or plot...
some of the duet numbers are heart-rending - I like Maria's voice - light, pure, clear - Tony and Anita are excellent also. "One Hand, One Heart"; "A Boy Like That/I Have a Love" are beautifully done....
Tony's a difficult part to play - he has to be a combination of really tough guy, yet, mellowing, getting away from violence, looking for a change...


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## pianozach

I've been involved in several different productions of West Side Story in several different capacities.

It's an extraordinarily difficult show to cast, and a difficult show to play.

I haven't seen the new film version yet, but I know one of the jet girls in it.


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