# When should opera stars take a final bow?



## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

Opera isn't my bag but this is a fascinating article - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opera/what-to-see/when-should-opera-stars-take-a-final-bow/

What do you think about it?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Taggart said:


> Opera isn't my bag but this is a fascinating article - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opera/what-to-see/when-should-opera-stars-take-a-final-bow/
> 
> What do you think about it?


It's absolutely correct. Most singers can't be doing it for the money - they have made singing their life and can't do without it. How much better to retire with dignity than carry on as some. When Joan Sutherland was asked why she was retiring she said, "I don't want people saying, 'When is the poor old thing going to give up?'" People tend to remember us as we finish. I prefer Domingo as the first rate tenor - one of the greatest ever, certainly as far as versatility goes - rather than the second rate baritone he has now become. Time to call it a day.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

One problem with an opera singer going on too long, I feel, is that the public ends up with a number of bad memories of the singer on top of all the good memories, and then it takes a certain amount of time for the public -- and the singer -- to "live the bad memories down" and place the singer's whole career in the proper perspective. This isn't to say that a singer should retire before he/she really _needs_ to, though. I suppose the right time to retire is when the singer can no longer sustain entire opera roles without wobbling terribly, etc.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Well, it's one thing to utter the words, "always leave 'em laughing, folks!" but easier said than done.

Opera has been a singer's life through thick and thin and it has to be the most excruciatingly difficult thing to finally let go ... forever.
Yes, it's always sad for most of us to watch the decline yet continuation of the likes of top players like Pavarotti and Callas whose voices finally were left at the starting gate without them but who were only human and could not be blamed for not knowing the proper time to let it all go.

Most will hang on till they drop, or find something else to take its place like conducting, changing their fach thinking that'd do the trick, or giving small recitals to their worshipped fans who'd applaud and scream even at croaks, or joining some rock group for continued adulation by a different kind of crowd that cheered their leftovers.

So maybe it's time to be kind, patient and understanding of their need to continue fulfilling their lifetime passion and be grateful remembering their heydays, and instead applaud the few who have had the good judgment to recognize that time's up and bid a fond adieu with class like Renee Fleming who slowly took her last vestiges of singing and turned instead into a Beverly Sills, who became a successful watchword in the business in another form.

And for those rare Olivero types that were blessed with strong, healthy pipes long after their time, let's rejoice in their longevity and gratefully shout out toi, toi, toi!


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

DavidA said:


> It's absolutely correct. Most singers can't be doing it for the money - they have made singing their life and can't do without it. How much better to retire with dignity than carry on as some. When Joan Sutherland was asked why she was retiring she said, "I don't want people saying, 'When is the poor old thing going to give up?'" People tend to remember us as we finish. I prefer Domingo as the first rate tenor - one of the greatest ever, certainly as far as versatility goes - rather than the second rate baritone he has now become. Time to call it a day.


Maybe Dame Joan did actually keep singing a couple of years too long, though? I say this because in 1990 there was that recording of _Adriana Lecouvrer_ she made with Carlo Bergonzi. I've never heard it, but it gets an absolutely scathing review in _The Metropolitan Opera Guide to Recorded Opera_ (and, judging from the review, Bergonzi was equally past his prime).


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Bellinilover said:


> Maybe Dame Joan did actually keep singing a couple of years too long, though? I say this because in 1990 there was that recording of _Adriana Lecouvrer_ she made with Carlo Bergonzi. I've never heard it, but it gets an *absolutely scathing review in The Metropolitan Opera Guide to Recorded Opera* (and, judging from the review, Bergonzi was equally past his prime).


The Metropolitan guide should not be taken too seriously. A lot of critical piffle in it.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

It raises an important question:

"When should opera critics take their final bow?"

N.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

DavidA said:


> The Metropolitan guide should not be taken too seriously. A lot of critical piffle in it.


Oh yes, certain reviews in it are way off the mark, IMO.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

One must also remember Beecham's opinion...
_
A soprano in Massenet's Don Quixote complained that she had missed her entry in the aria, "because Mr. Challiapin always dies too soon." "Madam, you must be profoundly in error," said Sir Thomas, "No operatic star has yet died half soon enough for me."_


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> Maybe Dame Joan did actually keep singing a couple of years too long, though? I say this because in 1990 there was that recording of _Adriana Lecouvrer_ she made with Carlo Bergonzi. I've never heard it, but it gets an absolutely scathing review in _The Metropolitan Opera Guide to Recorded Opera_ (and, judging from the review, Bergonzi was equally past his prime).


And do not forget the Anna Bolena she made just before that, raving reviews.
Still if one watching her last ever opera in Australia it's all there , and if that not enough try the gala in London's Fledermaus where she took her final bow. Can't be said of many singers. 
:cheers:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> It raises an important question:
> 
> "When should opera critics take their final bow?"
> 
> N.


When they don't know anything about singing - which, for some, means before their first review.


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

I read "When should opera stars take the final blow?" Even as a someone who doesn't like operatic singing styles, euthanizing opera singers just for being past their prime seemed slightly excessive.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

It's got to be difficult for a singer to judge whether she still has enough voice to do justice to the music she's singing, and when her theatrical skills are no longer potent enough to balance the deficiencies of her singing. People are loath to be frank even with singers who ought to have quit long ago. I have heard performances by major singers on the Met broadcasts that made me cringe and even outraged me - the outrage directed mainly not at the poor singer but at those who thought her worthy of being inflicted on the music and set before the public that fevently wants to hear the voice they remember and hangs on like sports fans to a team that hasn't won a pennant in a decade. Art is not sport, and we have a responsibility not to degrade it. If that means saying to Ms. Racette, "Honey, 'La mamma morta' sounds like crap, Maddalena is way out of your league," then that is what we should have the guts to say.

I don't think, by the way, that Callas went on too long. Her Covent Garden Tosca is proof of that, and after her Paris Norma the following year she was smart enough to stop. The comeback concerts were an isolated and valiant effort - an experiment, really, and a mutual-support effort with Di Stefano - but clearly they both read the writing on the wall. Sadly, for her it was a premature end. Other singers have been able to make a clear, simple choice, and I admire the attitude of the superb mezzo Mignon Dunn, who said after retiring that she lived wholly in the present and did not have a single picture of herself as an opera star in her home.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Dim7 said:


> I read "When should opera stars take the final blow?" Even as a someone who doesn't like operatic singing styles, euthanizing opera singers just for being past their prime seemed slightly excessive.


Euthanizing with blows is even a bit more excessive. Why not a sword in the head?


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

I did think that Domingo's first baritone role, _Simon Boccanegra_, was a one off. He said at the time (2010), that it was a role he'd always wanted to sing and he gave the impression it was to be his swan song. Sadly not to be. I get cross because all the time opera houses are employing him in baritone roles it means that young up-and-coming baritones are being denied their opportunities. I was pleased that I'd seen him sing a baritone role but I wouldn't want to see him do it again.

Last week I attended the final dress rehearsal of _Nabucco_ at ROH. This production is double cast with the role of Nabucco being shared by Domingo and Greek baritone Dimitri Platanias. You don't know who you will get at rehearsal but I was relieved it was Platanias and what a wonderful voice he's got.


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Swans sing before they die – ‘twere no bad thing
Should certain persons die before they sing.
Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Epigram on a volunteer Singer


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

in general, the lower and more heavy the voice, the longer they last (with plenty of exceptions like Devia, who still sounds great at 68). Samuel Ramey and Ewa Podles still sound amazing at 74 and 64 respectively, but it's harder to find sopranos and tenors who fit this bill.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> It's got to be difficult for a singer to judge whether she still has enough voice to do justice to the music she's singing, and when her theatrical skills are no longer potent enough to balance the deficiencies of her singing. People are loath to be frank even with singers who ought to have quit long ago. I have heard performances by major singers on the Met broadcasts that made me cringe and even outraged me - the outrage directed mainly not at the poor singer but at those who thought her worthy of being inflicted on the music and set before the public that fevently wants to hear the voice they remember and hangs on like sports fans to a team that hasn't won a pennant in a decade. Art is not sport, and we have a responsibility not to degrade it. If that means saying to Ms. Racette, "Honey, 'La mamma morta' sounds like crap, Maddalena is way out of your league," then that is what we should have the guts to say.
> 
> I don't think, by the way, that Callas went on too long. Her Covent Garden Tosca is proof of that, and after her Paris Norma the following year she was smart enough to stop. The comeback concerts were an isolated and valiant effort - an experiment, really, and a mutual-support effort with Di Stefano - but clearly they both read the writing on the wall. Sadly, for her it was a premature end. Other singers have been able to make a clear, simple choice, and I admire the attitude of the superb mezzo Mignon Dunn, who said after retiring that she lived wholly in the present and did not have a single picture of herself as an opera star in her home.


I've always liked Patricia Racette -- I have fond memories of her as Violetta in my first Met broadcast _Traviata_ from 1998 or so -- but maybe the part of Maddalena was a stretch for her. However, the worst singing I've ever heard on a Met broadcast (and it really stands out in my mind because, unlike you, I don't often perceive Met singing as bad) was the bass-baritone Richard Bernstein singing Marco's aria in William Bolcom's _A View from the Bridge_, ten years or so ago. It was bad not because he was past his vocal prime but because the aria lay too low for him: much more "bass" than "baritone."


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

" If that means saying to Ms. Racette, "Honey, 'La mamma morta' sounds like crap, Maddalena is way out of your league," then that is what we should have the guts to say."

True. Honesty is the best .....

On the other hand, this should no take away from the fact that Ms. Racette still brings a very special talent to opera, *given the proper role*, and has some unique qualities others lack. Her acting is so profound and honest and she envelops herself so totally in her roles, that whatever insufficiency she might display in a clean high note and deliver a "Tebaldi" instead, is easily forgiven as she sweeps us away with the completeness of her overall performance.
The lady has heart too and it shines brightly in her work.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Those of us who have seen the movie 'Florence Foster Jenkins' realise there are some people who never know when to quit!
Incidentally, I saw a cd of her singing for sale in HMV.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> " If that means saying to Ms. Racette, "Honey, 'La mamma morta' sounds like crap, Maddalena is way out of your league," then that is what we should have the guts to say."
> 
> True. Honesty is the best .....
> 
> ...


I do appreciate that Racette has theatrical talents which may compensate somewhat for her present vocal estate. But let's not pretend that that estate is now good. I used her only as an example, not to pick on her, but the example is a perfectly apt one. "La mamma morta" is not an exceptionally difficult thing to sing. She sang it badly - and I do mean badly. I was embarrassed for her. I hope she has retired the role.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Those of us who have seen the movie 'Florence Foster Jenkins' realise there are some people who never know when to quit!
> Incidentally, I saw a cd of her singing for sale in HMV.


Quit? There are people who never knew not to start.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> " If that means saying to Ms. Racette, "Honey, 'La mamma morta' sounds like crap, Maddalena is way out of your league," then that is what we should have the guts to say."
> 
> True. Honesty is the best .....
> 
> ...


And when she was in her prime she also had a beautiful voice, with a distinctive vibrato and a very "poignant" sound. She actually reminded me a lot of Ileana Cotrubas, though I think Racette had a better span of breath.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Quit? There are people who never knew not to start.


It's interesting that Jenkins was a child prodigy pianist as a youngster. They reckoned that the syphilis she suffered from might have effected her sense of pitch.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I do appreciate that Racette has theatrical talents which may compensate somewhat for her present vocal estate. But let's not pretend that that estate is now good. I used her only as an example, not to pick on her, but the example is a perfectly apt one. "La mamma morta" is not an exceptionally difficult thing to sing. She sang it badly - and I do mean badly. I was embarrassed for her. I hope she has retired the role.


Racette can knock the spots of many sopranos we have served up to us in London...

...but maybe that's not saying much...

N.


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## BaritoneAssoluto (Jun 6, 2016)

Racette, Devia, Gruberova (tremendous fail for a supposed "coloratura de drammatico"), Domingo, Nucci can all say good bye and the world of Opera would be much better without them. Domingo is an AMAZING conductor, why didn't he retire his voice to just do that? Instead, we have a first rate tenor bastardize his voice to fit into a third rate baritone.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BaritoneAssoluto said:


> Racette, Devia, Gruberova (tremendous fail for a supposed "coloratura de drammatico"), Domingo, Nucci can all say good bye and the world of Opera would be much better without them. Domingo is an AMAZING conductor, why didn't he retire his voice to just do that? Instead, we have a first rate tenor bastardize his voice to fit into a third rate baritone.


Do I gather from your comment on the Nucci thread that he's still singing at 74?

How about casting Domingo (75) as Rigoletto, Gruberova (69) as Gilda, Giordani (53) as the duke, and Nucci (74) as Sparafucile, re-envisioning the opera as a play-within-a-play showing the residents of a nursing home putting on an opera, with the chorus donated by the local Baptist church, their 103-year-old pianist at the out-of-tune spinet, and her 87-year-old son on the accordion? It would be a regietheater production, set in the future, and at the end a group of enlightened physicians would come in and euthanize the entire cast.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> Do I gather from your comment on the Nucci thread that he's still singing at 74?
> 
> How about casting Domingo (75) as Rigoletto, Gruberova (69) as Gilda, Giordani (53) as the duke, and Nucci (74) as Sparafucile, re-envisioning the opera as a play-within-play showing the residents of a nursing home putting on an opera, with the chorus donated by the local Baptist church, their 103-year-old pianist at the out-of-tune spinet, and her 87-year-old son on the accordion? It would be a regietheater production, set in the future, and at the end a group of enlightened physicians would come in and euthanize the entire cast.












Naughty Woodduck. You'll be giving Calixto Bieito ideas.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

sospiro said:


> Naughty Woodduck. You'll be giving Calixto Bieito ideas.


Then I'd better copyright it fast.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

sospiro said:


> Last week I attended the final dress rehearsal of _Nabucco_ at ROH. This production is double cast with the role of Nabucco being shared by Domingo and Greek baritone Dimitri Platanias. You don't know who you will get at rehearsal but I was relieved it was Platanias and what a wonderful voice he's got.


I don't always like what Rupert Christiansen has to say but I have to agree with this. Despite flickers of his old nobility, this Nabucco confirms Domingo is running close to empty - review.


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

A simple rule of thumb: if an opera singer retires and nobody notices, then that is the right time.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

graziesignore said:


> A simple rule of thumb: if an opera singer retires and nobody notices, then that is the right time.


Based upon own experience ?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Domingo on why he still sings on stage:

http://slippedisc.com/2016/06/placido-domingo-why-i-carry-on-singing/


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

DavidA said:


> Domingo on why he still sings on stage:
> 
> http://slippedisc.com/2016/06/placido-domingo-why-i-carry-on-singing/


I can't get the video to work but I think he's saying he'd miss the acclaim.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

sospiro said:


> I can't get the video to work but I think he's saying he'd miss the acclaim.


I did get it to work and he basically says that he is carrying on - studying other roles even - because he loves what he does. He also said he is conducting Traviata. Quite a guy!


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Well we can make our own minds up whether or not Domingo is 'past it'. Nabucco will be broadcast free on Big Screens around UK and also live on YouTube.

Link


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## BaritoneAssoluto (Jun 6, 2016)

What's next? Domingo claims he's not a "baritone" anymore because he can't hit a high G and therefore he's moving on to Basso repertory? I understand that he loves what he does, hell, I love what I do too but I'm not that callous that I when I get older, I'll switch to singing Tenor.

I've actually seen the BP 2016 live stream and I have to say if this is our current state of opera, I'd rather not continue my studying of it. Should I even begin with critiquing the horrible "stars"? The Soprano did no justice to Abigaille's big recitative, aria and then the cabaletta "Ben io t'invenni...Anch'io dischuiso...Salgo gia". She sounded wobbly and her non-existent lower and middle tones were horrible. The bass did much better in their live rehearsal. Zaccario is a tremendous part that can detail whether or not the bass will be star-quality or just a flop. And this performance was a hit-and-miss for me... especially the bass. Great voice but there's nothing there besides that and that's troubling. The star of the show (as in most Verdi operas,) the "baritone" Placido Domingo... nothing positive will come out from my mouth/fingers on this post.

All in all if you actually paid to see this, it was bad, besides the overall reused production and the orchestra was on fire.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

BaritoneAssoluto said:


> What's next? Domingo claims he's not a "baritone" anymore because he can't hit a high G and therefore he's moving on to Basso repertory? I understand that he loves what he does, hell, I love what I do too but I'm not that callous that I when I get older, I'll switch to singing Tenor.
> 
> I've actually seen the BP 2016 live stream and I have to say if this is our current state of opera, I'd rather not continue my studying of it. Should I even begin with critiquing the horrible "stars"? The Soprano did no justice to Abigaille's big recitative, aria and then the cabaletta "Ben io t'invenni...Anch'io dischuiso...Salgo gia". She sounded wobbly and her non-existent lower and middle tones were horrible. The bass did much better in their live rehearsal. Zaccario is a tremendous part that can detail whether or not the bass will be star-quality or just a flop. And this performance was a hit-and-miss for me... especially the bass. Great voice but there's nothing there besides that and that's troubling. The star of the show (as in most Verdi operas,) the "baritone" Placido Domingo... nothing positive will come out from my mouth/fingers on this post.
> 
> All in all if you actually paid to see this, it was bad, besides the overall reused production and the orchestra was on fire.


Last week I saw the final dress of this and Greek baritone Dmitri Platanias sang at the rehearsal and not Domingo. I'm reluctant to comment on rehearsals for obvious reasons but I was disappointed with the production which I thought was monochrome and confusing.

Having watched it live, all I can say is that I'm pleased it was Platanias who sang at the rehearsal.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I've been too busy to comment about this until now, but where did Rupert Christiansen get the idea that Rosa Ponselle was 'sung out' by age fourty? Callas may have been, but it is generally agreed that her voice stayed in good condition well after she retired. Received wisdom perceives her as having bowed out too soon. Whilst it can be good to question received wisdom, it's somewhat sloppy to take it for granted that she retired due to vocal difficulties. Anybody who knows about Rosa's life knows it is far more complex than that.

N.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I do appreciate that Racette has theatrical talents which may compensate somewhat for her present vocal estate. _*But let's not pretend that that estate is now good*._ I used her only as an example, not to pick on her, but the example is a perfectly apt one. "La mamma morta" is not an exceptionally difficult thing to sing. She sang it badly - and I do mean badly. I was embarrassed for her. I hope she has retired the role.


Because she was miscast as Maddalena doesn't necessarily mean that her "estate" is no longer any good.

She followed that dismal performance with a stellar _Salome_ which got wonderful notices and her recent Nedda in _Pagliacci_ was superb, both singing and theater-wise.
I don't think she is *quite *yet finished (Pavarotti/Callas style) -- maybe closer to Domingo style -- though I do worry about her and think maybe she will soon do better to segue into recitals and even jazz and club singing where she also shines.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> *Because she was miscast as Maddalena doesn't necessarily mean that her "estate" is no longer any good.*
> 
> She followed that dismal performance with a stellar _Salome_ which got wonderful notices and her recent Nedda in _Pagliacci_ was superb, both singing and theater-wise.
> I don't think she is *quite *yet finished (Pavarotti/*Callas style*) -- maybe closer to Domingo style -- though I do worry about her and think maybe she will soon do better to segue into recitals and even jazz and club singing where she also shines.


Racette has a fierce wobble now. I'll take your word for it that in those other roles she sounded better than she did in _Andrea Chenier._ It doesn't matter to me. I've heard enough of her to know that I can no longer enjoy her singing. I would rather listen to Callas at the very end of her career than to Racette in her present state.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> I've been too busy to comment about this until now, but where did Rupert Christiansen get the idea that Rosa Ponselle was 'sung out' by age fourty? Callas may have been, but it is generally agreed that her voice stayed in good condition well after she retired. Received wisdom perceives her as having bowed out too soon. Whilst it can be good to question received wisdom, it's somewhat sloppy to take it for granted that she retired due to vocal difficulties. Anybody who knows about Rosa's life knows it is far more complex than that.
> 
> N.


Ponselle was never "sung out." She left the Met at 40 over a contract dispute, not intending to retire completely. The high C was no longer comfortable for her, and she later said that had she continued her career it would have been as a mezzo. We can hear what that would have sounded like in recordings she made at home in later years. Here she is at 56:






56... Sung out...? 56... 

I want that woman reincarnated.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Maybe Ponselle was not "sung out" but rather "stressed out." I read that her terrible stage fright was one of the factors in her decision to retire early.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> Maybe Ponselle was not "sung out" but rather "stressed out." I read that her terrible stage fright was one of the factors in her decision to retire early.


Yes, I think she was relieved not to have to deal with her nerves. She said later that she didn't miss performing.


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

Last night walking down the Strand my wife squeezed my arm and by the time I had followed her gaze Domingo had strolled by. He was surrounded by 'family' and my wife said it was the happy group that first caught her attention only later did she recognised him. 

As he walked away we smiled and wished him well for we had seen him in his prime as Cavadorossi and that is how we will remember him. Not as the old man we saw, stooped and taking restricted steps as he wandered off.


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## BaritoneAssoluto (Jun 6, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> Racette has a fierce wobble now. I'll take your word for it that in those other roles she sounded better than she did in _Andrea Chenier._ It doesn't matter to me. I've heard enough of her to know that I can no longer enjoy her singing. I would rather listen to Callas at the very end of her career than to Racette in her present state.


The fact that at times, Callas could actually control her wobble (1969 verdi recordings, her 1962 recording of "Ocean! Though Mighty Monster!") and produced a better sound (the voice matured at this time and the vocal quality was phenomenal.


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## BaritoneAssoluto (Jun 6, 2016)

Belowpar said:


> Last night walking down the Strand my wife squeezed my arm and by the time I had followed her gaze Domingo had strolled by. He was surrounded by 'family' and my wife said it was the happy group that first caught her attention only later did she recognised him.
> 
> As he walked away we smiled and wished him well for we had seen him in his prime as Cavadorossi and that is how we will remember him. Not as the old man we saw, stooped and taking restricted steps as he wandered off.


If I may ask, how was his response when you adn your wife stated you saw him in Tosca as Cavadorossi? Did he take it as a compliment or as an insult? He looks like the type that can take a good joke, conservatively that is.


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

Careless writing. "we wished him well" was only a thought expressed between ourselves. 

We once went to que half the night to see him in Otello and were hours too late. Perhaps the most charismatic Opera singer of his day?


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## BaritoneAssoluto (Jun 6, 2016)

Doesn't that POS Samuel Ramey still sing? I like the voice, but his political views are too deranged for my tastes, even to the point of public scrutiny to religious people.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BaritoneAssoluto said:


> Doesn't that POS Samuel Ramey still sing? I like the voice, but his political views are too deranged for my tastes, even to the point of public scrutiny to religious people.


I hesitate to ask what those political views are, but I'm asking anyway.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Me too.
Inquiring minds .....


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

BaritoneAssoluto said:


> Doesn't that POS Samuel Ramey still sing? I like the voice, but his political views are too deranged for my tastes, *even to the point of public scrutiny to religious people.*


I take it Sam Ramey is liberal...but what do you mean by the bolded part? I don't understand.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The mystery deepens as the hours pass. I can't bear it.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

BaritoneAssoluto said:


> Doesn't *that POS Samuel Ramey* still sing? I like the voice, but his political views are too deranged for my tastes, even to the point of public scrutiny to religious people.


You realise he's just _pretending_ to be Mephistopheles, right?


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

I'm dying to know what POS means.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

It is something tender ears should be spared.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Oh really? One of those? Well in that case I'd say that a troll crept into the crypt crapped and crept out again.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

BaritoneAssoluto said:


> Doesn't that POS Samuel Ramey still sing? I like the voice, but his political views are too deranged for my tastes, even to the point of public scrutiny to religious people.


Please enlighten us, the suspense is killing us .


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

He won't be back, thank goodness.

But a word about Sammy. I will ever be grateful for his wonderful talents and sad that the wobble sneaked into his vocal cords so darned soon. I still would love to hear him in certain things where maybe he could get away with that wobble like the Grand Inquisitor or Gremin, to name two.
Several years ago I passed him on the street and gave a quick thanks to him for his wonderful performance in Don Carlo the night before.
He was very gracious and warm.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> He won't be back, thank goodness.
> 
> But a word about Sammy. I will ever be grateful for his wonderful talents and sad that the wobble sneaked into his vocal cords so darned soon. I still would love to hear him in certain things where maybe he could get away with that wobble like the Grand Inquisitor or Gremin, to name two.
> Several years ago I passed him on the street and gave a quick thanks to him for his wonderful performance in Don Carlo the night before.
> He was very gracious and warm.


You are heart warming Nina, example for us all.:tiphat:


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Very kind words. Thanks.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> He won't be back, thank goodness.
> 
> But a word about Sammy. I will ever be grateful for his wonderful talents and sad that the wobble sneaked into his vocal cords so darned soon. I still would love to hear him in certain things where maybe he could get away with that wobble like the Grand Inquisitor or Gremin, to name two.
> Several years ago I passed him on the street and gave a quick thanks to him for his wonderful performance in Don Carlo the night before.
> He was very gracious and warm.


The thing you have to remember about Ramey is that, while he started elsewhere in opera in the 1970's (for instance, there's his now-famous Glyndebourne Festival DVD of THE RAKE'S PROGRESS from 1975), he didn't make his Met debut until 1984 -- when he was 42. So he was already in his 40's by the time he was "the great star bass."


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> The thing you have to remember about Ramey is that, while he started elsewhere in opera in the 1970's (for instance, there's his now-famous Glyndebourne Festival DVD of THE RAKE'S PROGRESS from 1975), he didn't make his Met debut until 1984 -- when he was 42. So he was already in his 40's by the time he was "the great star bass."


He was not alone in making a late debut at the met:
Beverly Sills finally made her debut at the Metropolitan Opera on April 7, 1975 in The Siege of Corinth, receiving an eighteen-minute ovation


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Sutherland had a spectacular voice up until around 61. After that her voice began not to sound so good. She had a good long run though. Singing till 64 was stretching it a bit but her high D's were a marvel till 61. Most singers half her age can't sing a D with that size voice and with that degree of beauty. Actually, I prefer her D's as she got older, even though the Eb's left her in her last decade. I also love the rich, dark sonority of her middle voice as she aged. Some things she sang better young and some things sounded better as she was more mature.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Price was at her very best in the 60's but she had a ridiculously long career. I heard her in concert at age 70 in Seattle and she still sang a perfect high B at the end of Summertime. The audience went crazy. A recording of that same concert in another city resulting in you noticing a few more flaws than the excitement of the concert had one rememberting. But still.... 70!!!!!Very few stars would dare sing a concert at that age!!!!!! She sang her last opera at 57... Aida at the Met. You can watch it on Youtube. She nailed it. She sang a little bit in a speech giving her an award in her 80's and she still sounded great.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Here is one that will be a surprise for many of you.



 Nilsson at 62 singing a very, very beautiful O Mio Bambino Caro!!! After decades of Turandot's and Isolde's to be able to sing such a controlled aria so deftly is a wonder. Equally as stunning is her at 63 singing a jawdropping Narration and Curse FOLLOWED by a coloratura song by Christina Nilsson. She was a f...king wonder!!!!!! I am distraught my father wouldn't let me take the bus to New Orleans to hear her in concert when I was in high school. Now that I am 60 I can understand his point of view. But then......NO!!!


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Seattleoperafan - what very interesting & detailed posts! So lovely to read them. Thanks. :tiphat:


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Ingélou said:


> Seattleoperafan - what very interesting & detailed posts! So lovely to read them. Thanks. :tiphat:


I agree! I just wish he'd give some baritones and basses some lovin' too.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

sospiro said:


> I agree! I just wish he'd give some baritones and basses some lovin' too.


Well certainly one cannot speak about successful longevity in opera without mentioning Domingo, who is still at it in his 70's. Mentioning him you discuss both tenors and baritones.. He is not my favorite performer but one cannot help but admire the scope of his career..... conductor, tenor and baritone. How many can say that. I've also never heard people say unflattering things about him as a person.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Well certainly one cannot speak about successful longevity in opera without mentioning Domingo, who is still at it in his 70's. Mentioning him you cover tenors, baritones and basses because, if I am not mistaken, he is planning to sing a bass role. He is not my favorite performer but one cannot help but admire the scope of his career..... conductor, tenor, baritone and bass. How many can say that. I've also never heard people say unflattering things about him as a person.


What? Domingo as Osmin?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> What? Domingo as Osmin?


I mispoke. I was reading on his father. Google ...bad bad... google.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Don Matias..... not aware of Osmin


What opera is that?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> What opera is that?


Boo boo. Sorry. I remembered incorrectly and googled sloppily. Don't make me leave the group. I know sopranos much better... but I tried.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Boo boo. Sorry. I remembered incorrectly and googled sloppily. Don't make me leave the group. I know sopranos much better... but I tried.


If this weren't summer you could blame the Seattle rain for waterlogging your brain. I guess its just a mild case of sopranitis. You may stay in the group, but if I were you I'd contact Virginia Mason. She's a mezzo, and knows how to give sopranos a dose of their own medicine.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

A late and definitely great performance that brought down the rafters at the Met was the never-to-be-forgotten debut of Magda Olivero in Tosca at the age of 65 in 1975. Announced as a last minute substitute, the house was completely sold out in two days.
She caused a sensation!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> A late and definitely great performance that brought down the rafters at the Met was the never-to-be-forgotten debut of Magda Olivero in Tosca at the age of 65 in 1975. Announced as a last minute substitute, the house was completely sold out in two days.
> She caused a sensation!


And apparently it sounded very well also .


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Pugg said:


> Ans apparently it sounded very well also .


Thanks for bringing her up. She sang in concerts till 75 and sounded really well. Another truly, truly remarkable singer was Dorothy Kirsten I heard her singing Butterfly in her 60's on satellite radio and she sounded like a 25 year old fresh out of Julliard!!!! Her voice never seemed to age at all.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Boo boo. Sorry. I remembered incorrectly and googled sloppily. Don't make me leave the group. I know sopranos much better... but I tried.


I forgive you ... this once! :kiss:


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## trem0lo (Sep 14, 2016)

I think I knew what the article was about before I clicked on it. In the opera singer world most of us wish Domingo would stick with conducting. The "last straw" came when he decided he could tackle baritone roles. At that moment baritones everyone simultaneously groaned. But it's Domingo, he will do what he wants and people will still bravo. 

A few years ago Sam Ramey sang excerpts from Mefistofele in Chicago. It was very good (still had the ringing high and low Fs) but not like his barn-buster Attila performances of years ago. Still better than most "basses" singing today I might add.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Oh dear, Sospiro this must be music to your ears.......


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## Autumn Leaves (Jan 3, 2014)

I agree with these who say that the deeper voices (usually) last longer. As for myself, for example, I actually like Raimondi's voice in the 2004 Tosca much better than in the 1979 Don Giovanni.


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