# Beethoven's admiration of Handel



## poconoron

From what I've read, Beethoven seemed to hold Handel and Mozart in particularly high regard. But apparently not JS Bach so much. Does anyone have an insight into what Beethoven particularly admired about Handel's music? I have an idea, but I'd like to hear others' opinions.


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## TrazomGangflow

I'm not sure but perhaps Beethoven didn't like Bach's very formal cathedral music. Maybe he thought it was too traditional. I'm not so sure what he admired about Handel so much though.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Two reasons: (1) mainly because Handel's music was still popular after his death such that concerts and performance his music continued in a traditional sense, especially _The Messiah_ (unbroken to this day) , (2) not much of Bach's music was published outside of his local circles of connoisseurs and good students. Bach's were circulated by manuscripts, which was how Beethoven and Mozart came to know it. So, I don't think it was a case of Beethoven not holding Bach's music to high regard.


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## jalex

'Go and learn from him (Handel) how to achieve vast effects with simple means.'
-Ludwig van Beethoven

And who better achieved vast effects with simple means than Beethoven?


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## Olias

WOAH! I just sat up in my chair. Beethoven was a HUGE admirer of Bach. In fact Bach was more of an influence on Beethoven than any other composer (source = Dr. Robert Greenberg, San Francisco Conservatory of Music). Beethoven's childhood teacher, Christian Gottlob Neefe, was a Lutheran and exposed Beethoven to Bach's music. Beethoven as a young pianist could play both sets of Bach's Well Tempered Clavier. His motivic approach to composing is an influence of Bach and went against the trend of vocally conceived melodies of the time. His later piano sonatas and string quartets contain fugues that rival Bach's greatest fugues. Beethoven's own Diabelli Variations were inspired by Bach's Goldberg Variations, and Beethoven had studied Bach's B Minor Mass in great detail before composing his own Missa Solemnis.

Yes, Beethoven admired Handel and Mozart a great deal, but Bach was his greatest influence.


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## poconoron

Olias said:


> WOAH! I just sat up in my chair. Beethoven was a HUGE admirer of Bach. In fact Bach was more of an influence on Beethoven than any other composer (source = Dr. Robert Greenberg, San Francisco Conservatory of Music). Beethoven's childhood teacher, Christian Gottlob Neefe, was a Lutheran and exposed Beethoven to Bach's music. Beethoven as a young pianist could play both sets of Bach's Well Tempered Clavier. His motivic approach to composing is an influence of Bach and went against the trend of vocally conceived melodies of the time. His later piano sonatas and string quartets contain fugues that rival Bach's greatest fugues. Beethoven's own Diabelli Variations were inspired by Bach's Goldberg Variations, and Beethoven had studied Bach's B Minor Mass in great detail before composing his own Missa Solemnis.
> 
> Yes, Beethoven admired Handel and Mozart a great deal, but Bach was his greatest influence.


You and Mr. Greenberg may feel that Bach had the greatest influence, but apparently in the written record which survives, Beethoven himself directs his utmost praise towards Handel:

http://www.messiahcd.com/Information/about_Handel/Beethoven/beethoven.html

"On another occasion he is said to have remarked, "Handel is the greatest composer that ever lived", and spoke of the oratorio as having "sublimity of language". The music of Messiah so permeated Beethoven's being that on his deathbed he is reputed to have quoted from The Messiah"

"He is the greatest composer that ever lived. I would uncover my head and kneel before his tomb."
-- Ludwig van Beethoven, quoted in Percy M Young, Handel (1947)

So, my question remains............. why this overwhelming reverence for Handel?


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## Ukko

Well, why not? Note that he was (apparently) impressed with Handel's choral works, not his keyboard music. It's fairly well documented that Beethoven played from the WTC mornings, possibly to wake up his muse, rather than sing something by Handel.

...


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Ferdinand Ries, who was Beethoven's friend and student wrote: "_Of all composers, Beethoven valued Mozart and Handel most highly, then J. S. Bach. ... Whenever I found him with music in his hands, or saw some lying on his desk, it was certain to be a composition by one of these idols_."

I love reading these anecdotes.


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## Sid James

It's commonsense, in terms of what some people say above. ALL of them - Mozart, Handel, Bach - influenced Beethoven. He denied that Haydn did but I think this was what he said in public, I think privately he admired old papa, and his actions in various anecdotes speak strongly to this as well.

I think that Beethoven could not have written, or would have found it very hard to write, things like a lot of the contrapuntal passages in those great late works - eg. the late piano sonatas, string quartets, 9th symphony,_ Missa Solemnis_ - without the aid of studying the music of these & probably Bach above all, given he was the absolute king of counterpoint in all it's forms...


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Sid James said:


> I think that Beethoven could not have written, or would have found it very hard to write, things like a lot of the contrapuntal passages in those great late works - eg. the late piano sonatas, string quartets, 9th symphony,_ Missa Solemnis_ - without the aid of studying the music of these & probably Bach above all, given he was the absolute king of counterpoint in all it's forms...


That's right, goes to prove that Bach was really the king of kings in composition. Glad I can enjoy Beethoven and Bach's music as much. No wonder many of us "worship" the music of good old J. S. It's all great stuff.


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## Webernite

I think it was essentially because Handel was able to write dramatically for the orchestra.


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## Artemis

poconoron said:


> So, my question remains............. why this overwhelming reverence for Handel?


The essence of your question is why Beethoven had a particular revence for Handel, as if somebody here might be aware of information beyond the well-known quotes by Beethoven about about Handel and various other composers, for example knowledge of some kind detailed essay or analysis by Beethoven setting out chapter and verse his views about the virtues of Handel's music in a technical way (eg how he wrote counterpoint, or used brass, or wind, blah, blah). Sorry to disappoint but I don't think anything like that exists. Beethoven's comment remain gloriously vague, so you're going to make your own inferences just like everbody else has done.

I must say that quotations by Beethoven about other composers, or indeed quotations by any composer about another, don't fascinate me much and I've never attached much store to them, because they're probably just a load of hype dreamed up at the time or shortly after to impress the masses. Latterly they seem to have become just music forum fodder. The quotes by Beethoven about his thinking on the likes of Handel especially rather boring because the're trotted out so often.

Note that Beethoven also thought that the greatest living composer in his day was Cherubini, but these days he's a second rate entity. Beethoven also hated Rossini and said all kinds of disrespectful things about him, but it doesn't stand up to scrutiny these days. And don't forget that Beethoven said of Schubert that "Truly, a divine spark dwells in Schubert!". I'd just like to echo the comment of another member here who said recently that in his opinion Schubert was the greatest naturally gifted composer. That's my opinion too. If Beethoven had been familiar with all the works of Schubert and not just the odd song or two that he had heard, and if he could have the works that Schubert wrote in his last year (partly in commemoration of Beethoven), I reckond that Beethoven would have bowled over completely and ditched Handel in favour of Schubert.


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## Ukko

Artemis said:


> [...]
> I'd just like to echo the comment of another member here who said recently that in his opinion Schubert was the greatest naturally gifted composer. That's my opinion too. If Beethoven had been familiar with all the works of Schubert and not just the odd song or two that he had heard, and if he could have the works that Schubert wrote in his last year (partly in commemoration of Beethoven), I reckond that Beethoven would have bowled over completely and ditched Handel in favour of Schubert.


How much you value a composer depends to a significant degree on how much you value the music genres he was good at. Beethoven's 'rating' of Handel (and Cherubini) probably stems from their, ah, orchestral abilities. Not Schubert's strength.


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## violadude

Hilltroll72 said:


> How much you value a composer depends to a significant degree on how much you value the music genres he was good at. Beethoven's 'rating' of Handel (and Cherubini) probably stems from their, ah, orchestral abilities. Not Schubert's strength.


Here's an idea...a lot of times we admire and are impressed greatly by traits in others that we feel lacking in ourselves...so maybe Beethoven's rating of Handel has to do with his superior ability in the opera department. Perhaps?


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## Artemis

Hilltroll72 said:


> How much you value a composer depends to a significant degree on how much you value the music genres he was good at. Beethoven's 'rating' of Handel (and Cherubini) probably stems from their, ah, orchestral abilities. Not Schubert's strength.


Yes but Beethoven's very high assessment of Schubert was based on a very limited familiarity with the latter's work (a song or two that had drifted in his direction), and my point was _if_ Beethoven had been able to assess the full range of Schubert's output I reckon he would have been even more impressed, possibly to the extent of hailing Schubert as the "best". The latter's ability in song writing, chamber music, orchestral music is extremely good. But obviously I am speculating wildly here about what Beethovem might have said.

In any event, assuming that Beethoven had seen the whole range of Mozart's and J S Bach's output, which is doubtful given Bach's falling out of the limelight by the end of the 18th C, I can't see how he reached the conclusion that Handel was overall better than both of these two. That's not in accordance with majority modern day thinking, even though Handel's reputation has grown immensely over recent decades. Since he didn't specify precisely why he believed Handel to be superior to Bach or Mozart, it's anyone's guess why Beethoven made these remarks.

As I said earlier, simple one-liners like those made by Beethoven don't impress me very much taken on their own. He may as well have said that he likes his "granny's" cakes better than those from local shop, or that he preferred to get his booze (of which he consumed great quantities and hence the reason for his alcoholic cirrhosis and ascites from which he eventually died) from one local vendor rather than another. Since we aren't told precisely why these judgements were made it's difficult to treat them all that seriously as indicators of quality. On the other hand, if there were lots and lots of similar high praise comments for Handel coming from many other composers and musicians then things might be different. Whatever may exist in favour of Handel, I would very much doubt that they would even remotely emulate the wide-ranging very favourable attributions made in favour of Mozart or J S Bach.


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## Artemis

violadude said:


> Here's an idea...a lot of times we admire and are impressed greatly by traits in others that we feel lacking in ourselves...so maybe Beethoven's rating of Handel has to do with his superior ability in the opera department. Perhaps?


Can you identify any of Beethoven's references to Handel's operas, or oratorios etc? If not, it's not that convincing is it?

Even if it were true that Beethoven secretly admired those with a superior abililty than his own to write opera, why did he choose Handel rather tham Mozart?

My theory is that Beethoven just loved Handel's wigs. Either that or he thought he'd scribble down some vague thoughts about his "favourite composer" (like we all do), and kept his comments deliberately vague in order to mystify future generations as to precisely why he made the choice, and Handel's name just happened to come up on his roulette wheel at the time. Plausible?


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## GoneBaroque

jalex said:


> 'Go and learn from him (Handel) how to achieve vast effects with simple means.'
> -Ludwig van Beethoven
> 
> And who better achieved vast effects with simple means than Beethoven?


At a concert during which Paul Robeson sand the Bass theme from the fourth movement of Beethoven's 9th Symphony he correctly described it as "A simple chorale raised by Beethoven to monumental heights".


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Artemis said:


> ... Beethoven just loved Handel's wigs.


So do I. I have several of those wigs in my own personal collection, and have been accused of wearing them at the weekends.

Essentially, you are correct. We will never really know what Beethoven thought of Handel's music or Bach's or whoever he might have preferred. But a thread to glorify Handel "with Beethoven's support" must be played along well, it's all part of the smoke & mirrors. I almost wanted to wear my Handelian wig when I responded to this thread today.


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## violadude

Artemis said:


> Can you identify any of Beethoven's references to Handel's operas, or oratorios etc? If not, it's not that convincing is it?
> 
> Even if it were true that Beethoven secretly admired those with a superior abililty than his own to write opera, why did he choose Handel rather tham Mozart?
> 
> My theory is that Beethoven just loved Handel's wigs. Either that or he thought he'd scribble down some vague thoughts about his "favourite composer" (like we all do), and kept his comments deliberately vague in order to mystify future generations as to precisely why he made the choice, and Handel's name just happened to come up on his roulette wheel at the time. Plausible?


Well....like I said, just a thought...


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## Sid James

On these anecdote/quote things, I did read that Beethoven thought Cherubini's _Requiem in C_ was a finer piece than Mozart's one. I heard the Cherubini piece earlier in the year, but it's been a while since I've heard the Mozart, so I won't get into that comparison game. But it kind of shows that although Beethoven adored Mozart and his music, he was pragmatic in that if he heard a piece that he thought was better, he had no qualms about expressing that and putting it on record, what he honestly thought. Goes with my experience, composers, musicians, etc. who I've personally come across, rarely have sacred cows, it's the fans and groupies that love to build cults and monuments (unless we're talking about Wagner, who of course built Bayreuth as a monument to himself, & I'm being serious there)...


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## DavidMahler

Wasn't Handel very much a plagiarist, much more so than other composers?


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## HarpsichordConcerto

DavidMahler said:


> Wasn't Handel very much a plagiarist, much more so than other composers?


He borrowed much themes from his contemporaries and infused them into his own works. He also recycled a lot of materials from earlier works of his own.


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## Guest

When answering the question of this thread we must look predominantly toward the music of Beethoven. Undoubtedly his 'Diabelli Variations' are the ultimate compliment to JS Bach and his 'Goldberg variations'. It is as if Beethoven is saying, "I've heard yours; now these are mine". As I used to tell my senior English students at school, (and it's a metaphor), "you should believe the TALE, and not the Teller".

We must take with a grain of salt the utterings of a composer about whom he likes or does not like and LISTEN for the influences. Only then will we hear the great, great, great JS Bach in the last 3 piano sonatas of Beethoven in fugal form (which Beethoven wrestled with mightily, and which Leonard Bernstein claims he never fully mastered). There would be elements of the music of other Komponisten which Beethoven admired but, unquestionably, in those last great works JS Bach is there. He's the 'elephant in the room', IMO. All composers, in one way or another, stood "on the shoulders of giants" (Johannes Brahms).


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## poconoron

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> We must take with a grain of salt the utterings of a composer about whom he likes or does not like and LISTEN for the influences.


Aha, I see.............. don't listen to the composer himself - instead listen to "my" interpretation of what the composer _really_ likes.


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## Norse

This isn't meant as part of the argument, but have you guys heard an overture by Beethoven called "The Consecration of the House"? It's heavily inspired by Handel, especially the "big" Handel. It's not hard to tell it's Beethoven, but at times Handel is really shining through, like the trumpet fanfare after the slow opening, and the later part that immediately makes you think of the fast fugato section of a Handel overture. According to Wikipedia, "it was the first work Beethoven wrote after studying the works of J. S. Bach and Handel, and bears their influence." Imo, it's easier to hear Handel in it, though.


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## martijn

This is quite a funny thread. When faced with the statement that Händel was Beethoven's favorite composer, some shake their heads and say: "that múst be wrong!". If we in our days consider Bach a greater composer, a genius like Beethoven must have had the same view as well. And to save the situation someone says: "Well, then Beethoven must be more INSPIRED by Bach than by Händel", and points at places where Beethoven uses counterpoint. That itself is already funny, as soon as a composer uses counterpoints or writes a fugue, everyone shouts "the influence of Bach!", like Bach is the only composer who ever used counterpoint or wrote fugues. Yes he did it pretty well, but so did others. Not to mention that Händel himself knew a thing or two about counterpoint.

The simple fact is that Beethoven preferred Händel. From several sources we have a clear view of Beethoven's preferences: first his favorite composer was Mozart, later it became Händel, followed by Mozart, and then came Bach and Haydn. There's just no doubt about that. And I don't think we should say that Beethoven must be wrong here. For sure, he didn't know all of Bach,for example he wasn't familiar with a masterpiece like the St Matthew's passion. But still. I personally think that he preferred Händel to Mozart and Bach because Händel came closest to him in spirit, in a way. Mozart was maybe too sophisticated, too "feminine", Bach was perhaps too introspective, not dramatic enough. But in Händel you find a dramatic power, very direct, very simple. One shouldn't forget that it appears that Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven all preferred Händel to Bach. I believe that not only has to do with their limited knowledge of Bach. To their contemporary ears, Händel must have seemed a more modern composer, more direct in his emotions than Bach. They all praise Händels ability to strike with simple means. Now one can say a lot about Bach, but that's not Bach's speciality.


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## martijn

1_.	The essence of your question is why Beethoven had a particular revence for Handel, as if somebody here might be aware of information beyond the well-known quotes by Beethoven about about Handel and various other composers, for example knowledge of some kind detailed essay or analysis by Beethoven setting out chapter and verse his views about the virtues of Handel's music in a technical way (eg how he wrote counterpoint, or used brass, or wind, blah, blah). Sorry to disappoint but I don't think anything like that exists. Beethoven's comment remain gloriously vague, so you're going to make your own inferences just like everbody else has done.

I must say that quotations by Beethoven about other composers, or indeed quotations by any composer about another, don't fascinate me much and I've never attached much store to them, because they're probably just a load of hype dreamed up at the time or shortly after to impress the masses. Latterly they seem to have become just music forum fodder. The quotes by Beethoven about his thinking on the likes of Handel especially rather boring because the're trotted out so often.

Note that Beethoven also thought that the greatest living composer in his day was Cherubini, but these days he's a second rate entity. Beethoven also hated Rossini and said all kinds of disrespectful things about him, but it doesn't stand up to scrutiny these days. And don't forget that Beethoven said of Schubert that "Truly, a divine spark dwells in Schubert!". I'd just like to echo the comment of another member here who said recently that in his opinion Schubert was the greatest naturally gifted composer. That's my opinion too. If Beethoven had been familiar with all the works of Schubert and not just the odd song or two that he had heard, and if he could have the works that Schubert wrote in his last year (partly in commemoration of Beethoven), I reckond that Beethoven would have bowled over completely and ditched Handel in favour of Schubert. _

There are a few puzzling statements here. First you state that these statements about composers don't mean a lot, and then you start a wild speculation about how Beethoven would have preferred Schubert to Händel. There's not the slightest reason to think that way (apart from your own preference for Schubert, I suppose). If you say that many statements of composers on other composers are romanticized or made up, you are right, but why then believe in Beethoven's quote that "there was truly a divine spark in Schubert", when you know that was told by the notorious unreliable Schindler?

Besides that, Beethoven may have hated Rossini, to some extent, but not because he denied his genius. Rather the opposite, he blamed Rossini for doing so little with his huge talents. And perhaps Cherubini is not such a second-rate composer as some may see him. Much later Brahms considered Cherubini him still one of the greats. For sure one shouldn't listen to Cherubini when one is in the mood for something frivolous, but as a composer of dignified music, Cherubini is pretty great. The reason that Beethoven preferred Cherubini's Requiem to Mozart's had by the way little to do with musical quality, Beethoven thought that a Requiem should be full of resignation, which is the case with Cherubini's, but not with Mozart's.

In general I do attach value to composer's statements, for the simple fact that they are so often right. Bach was forgotten by the end of the 18th century, but Mozart (and later Beethoven) recognized his genius. Millions of internetpolluters speak full of disdain about Mozart, but I practically never heard a great composer speaking in such a stupid way about Mozart. When everybody looked down on Mendelssohn, Schoenberg was quick to defend him and speak of him as a "very great master". There are exceptions, but usually great composers recognize other great composers very well, and much better than the general audience does.


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## chrisblodgett

martijn said:


> like Bach is the only composer who ever used counterpoint or wrote fugues. Yes he did it pretty well, but so did others..


The quote that Bach 'did it pretty well.' in reference to his counterpoint and fugues, is more funny than any other comment on this thread..


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## Minona

_RE: "In any event, assuming that Beethoven had seen the whole range of Mozart's and J S Bach's output..."_

I don't think Beethoven could have heard Mozart's Great Mass in C, and the Requiem wasn't finished. I always take the Great Mass into account as it shows such immense ability, along with Piano Concetos 20 and 23, the late symphonies, etc.

The Magic Flute was said to be the only opera Beethoven admired, although he more than admired Cherubini's dramatic works ...he 'stole' from them! In fact, Beethoven's dramatic style was lifted straight from Cherubini, and wasn't simply a reflection of his 'volatile' personality. Actually, it was quoted of Cherubini that "some maintain his temper was very even, because he was always angry."

As for Bach, I can't imagine he heard the greatest stuff before his deafness, and I don't think Beethoven would have been too impressed by Bach's contrapuntal achievements compared to Handel's 'grandiose style' (yet Handel's harmonic skills were rather less developed than Bach's). I think Handel's bold, regal style would have appealed to Beethoven, because that was the sort of effect he wanted to create (thinking of 'Messiah' in particular).

However, they do say, 'never trust what an artist says, only what he does!' He was far more influenced by Mozart.


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## Stargazer

Minona said:


> _I don't think Beethoven could have heard Mozart's Great Mass in C, and the Requiem wasn't finished. I always take the Great Mass into account as it shows such immense ability, along with Piano Concetos 20 and 23, the late symphonies, etc. _


_

Beethoven actually directly compared Mozart's requiem to Cherubini's, stating that he preferred the latter. So he at least heard the parts that were completed, if not the work as it's often presented today._


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## KenOC

Several Beethoven quotes mention all three composers, often with Handel and Mozart seemingly elevated (a bit) over Bach. Maybe Beethoven remembered those grueling evenings at Van Swieten's place where he was forced to play Bach fugues "until my fingers bled"!

However, somebody also noted that his most fulsome praise for Handel was often addressed to English visitors, and he was angling for a paid trip to England, with commissions...


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## Minona

RE: Beethoven and Mozart's requiem...

Oh yes, but it is not fair to compare a finished work with a work left unfinished by the original composer. That has always stuck me as an ignorant thing for Beethoven to do... although Cherubini's work is a superb achievement!


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## Guest

KenOC said:


> Several Beethoven quotes mention all three composers, often with Handel and Mozart seemingly elevated (a bit) over Bach. Maybe Beethoven remembered those grueling evenings at Van Swieten's place where he was forced to play Bach fugues "until my fingers bled"!
> 
> However, somebody also noted that his most fulsome praise for Handel was often addressed to English visitors, and he was angling for a paid trip to England, with commissions...


You are really on to something here!! Beethoven often had a sharp political eye on his next move!! This is certainly the case, from my research, in the case of _Bonapartism_. And a very important thing to remember about Beethoven was that he was highly ambivalent as an individual. There are loads of examples of this (and these are simultaneous feelings which existed): likes Vienna/loathes Vienna, loves a particular woman/doesn't love a woman, likes Haydn/dislikes Haydn, pretends to honesty/given to untrustworthy behaviour and sharp practice. The list goes on....

Therefore, making a blanket statement about whom Beethoven most admired from the past is a problematic exercise.


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## KenOC

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> Beethoven often had a sharp political eye on his next move!! This is certainly the case, from my research, in the case of _Bonapartism_.


Beethoven certainly seemed on-again off-again about Napoleon. Obviously he was a fan when he wrote the Eroica, but became a definite non-fan before publication. When Vienna was being bombarded a few years later, he said, "If I knew as much about war as I do about music, I'd kick his butt!" Then he wrote Wellington's Victory, celebrating a major Bonapartist defeat. But when Napoleon died in 1821, his comment was, "I've already written the music for that disaster," evidently referring to the 2nd movement of the Eroica again...


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## Ramako

Many people seem to have been down as him admiring Handel above all other composers.



> There is probably no characteristic of Beethoven on which his friends and acquaintances were as unanimous as on his veneration for Handel. Ries, who was close to him for many years, said:


The Ries quote puts him on the same level as Mozart, but there are others which are more superlative. There seem to be a fair number of Germans who record it too, although I can't swear to that - interesting idea, although it strikes me that contextually Handel would be more likely to come up in conversation with an Englishman/woman. His attitude toward Haydn was coloured by their personal relationship however: unlike the others it was not solely based on his music and this complicates matters.


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## Ramako

Minona said:


> RE: Beethoven and Mozart's requiem...
> 
> Oh yes, but it is not fair to compare a finished work with a work left unfinished by the original composer. That has always stuck me as an ignorant thing for Beethoven to do... although Cherubini's work is a superb achievement!


Beethoven:



> "If Mozart did not write the music, then the man who wrote it was a Mozart."


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## Guest

KenOC said:


> Beethoven certainly seemed on-again off-again about Napoleon. Obviously he was a fan when he wrote the Eroica, but became a definite non-fan before publication. When Vienna was being bombarded a few years later, he said, "If I knew as much about war as I do about music, I'd kick his butt!" Then he wrote Wellington's Victory, celebrating a major Bonapartist defeat. But when Napoleon died in 1821, his comment was, "I've already written the music for that disaster," evidently referring to the 2nd movement of the Eroica again...


Actually, there was often huge POLITICAL motivation in his utterings - but these were also ambivalent. He wanted a posting in Paris at one time, if that provides any clues!


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## KenOC

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> Actually, there was often huge POLITICAL motivation in his utterings - but these were also ambivalent. He wanted a posting in Paris at one time, if that provides any clues!


As I remember, he was feeling unhappy about having to live by his wits in Vienna and was looking for a more permanent job. Seems Napoleon's brother Jerome had a Kapellmeister opening in France and wrote Beethoven offering it. Beethoven let it be known that he was looking closely at this, with the result that three aristos offered him a substantial guaranteed annual stipend if he would stay in Vienna -- to which he agreed.

Of course it may just have been canny bargaining on Beethoven's part -- who knows? But in any event the stipend was much damaged over the years by inflation, death, and defaults.


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## StlukesguildOhio

Many people seem to have been down as him admiring Handel above all other composers.

Well I suspect that there are a good many people with a rather superficial experience with Baroque music in general... and little idea of just how brilliant Handel was... and across such a wide spectrum of music.


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## KenOC

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Well I suspect that there are a good many people with a rather superficial experience with Baroque music in general... and little idea of just how brilliant Handel was... and across such a wide spectrum of music.


Beethoven said of Handel: "He knew how to draw blood."


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Even Mozart admired Handel's music and welcomed the additional income earnt by arranging a few of Handel's large scale pieces, including _The Messiah_, to suit "modern" Viennese ears (commissioned by Baron Gottfried van Swieten). Such was the demand for "good" Baroque music considered old fashioned by the time the Classical period was already at its peak. And unusual as far as great composers were concerned.


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## GodNickSatan

Well according to Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, which I believe to be a very factual movie, Beethoven's favorite works were Mozart's _Requiem_, Handel's _Messiah_, and Bon Jovi's _Slippery When Wet_.


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## Guest

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Even Mozart admired Handel's music and welcomed the additional income earnt by arranging a few of Handel's large scale pieces, including _The Messiah_, to suit "modern" Viennese ears (commissioned by Baron Gottfried van Swieten). Such was the demand for "good" Baroque music considered old fashioned by the time the Classical period was already at its peak. And unusual as far as great composers were concerned.


Everyone loves Handel. What's not to love? Those fabulous keyboard works, Cantatas, Oratorios but, above all, the operas. He's one of my all-time great and dearly beloved composers.


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## andantefavori

I have come to understand that Beethoven really held Händel in the most highest degree, as can be seen from several quotes by him. For example:

_Händel ist der unerreichte Meister aller Meister. Gehen Sie und lernen Sie von ihm, wie gewaltige Wirkungen mit einfachen Mitteln zu erreichen ist._

Händel is the unattainable master of all masters. Go to him and learn how mighty impacts are brought about with the simplest methods. (according to Ignaz Seyfried)

and:

_Händel ist der größte Komponist, der je lebte. Ich würde meine Kopfbedeckung abnehmen und auf seinem Grab knien._

Händel is the greatest composer who ever lived. I'd take off my hat and kneel on his grave. (autumn of 1823, to J. A. Stumpff)

and, to Stephan von Breuning, on his deathbed:

_Händel ist der Größte und Fähigste aller Komponisten; von ihm kann ich immer noch lernen._

Händel is the greatest and most capable of all composers, from him I can always learn something new.

Why did he think so? I think it's a simple matter of tastes, Händel's style was something that Beethoven felt kinship to. What is great about Händel is that he gets "straight to the point" but does it with the highest of eloquence, a feature that was pointed out lacking in Beethoven's music by some of his contemporaries.

I must also note that Beethoven's hearing abilities didn't have that much impact on this subject, as he studied compositions from partitures to his final days. It didn't matter which compositions he had heard in live performances, he could hear them in his mind via the written notes.


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## ArtMusic

Handel was one of those rare composers who never faded away from popularity after his death, at least in England.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

TrazomGangflow said:


> I'm not sure but perhaps Beethoven didn't like Bach's very formal cathedral music. Maybe he thought it was too traditional. I'm not so sure what he admired about Handel so much though.


Nice avatar dude - go quaker oats, Bach style!


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## HaydnBearstheClock

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> You are really on to something here!! Beethoven often had a sharp political eye on his next move!! This is certainly the case, from my research, in the case of _Bonapartism_. And a very important thing to remember about Beethoven was that he was highly ambivalent as an individual. There are loads of examples of this (and these are simultaneous feelings which existed): likes Vienna/loathes Vienna, loves a particular woman/doesn't love a woman, likes Haydn/dislikes Haydn, pretends to honesty/given to untrustworthy behaviour and sharp practice. The list goes on....
> 
> Therefore, making a blanket statement about whom Beethoven most admired from the past is a problematic exercise.


Yes, Beethoven was definitely ambivalent about Haydn .


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## GiulioCesare

I don't think Händel is the greatest composer ever, but I think his influence on great composers of later generations is very often understated.


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## starry

I'm not sure Beethoven was ambivalent about Haydn in later life, earlier on he had a problem because Haydn wanted to make Beethoven say he was his pupil on some of his early published scores.

Beethoven must have greatly admired Handel's music as someone at the end of his life gave him a gift of the published scores of Handel.


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## KenOC

Beethoven seems to have been more at peace with Haydn in his later life. He had a picture of Haydn's birthplace on his wall that he liked to show visitors. His Op. 135 quartet, the first movement anyway, seems like an homage.


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## alphasun

*Incredible arrogance*



andantefavori said:


> I have come to understand that Beethoven really held Händel in the most highest degree, as can be seen from several quotes by him. For example:
> 
> _Händel ist der unerreichte Meister aller Meister. Gehen Sie und lernen Sie von ihm, wie gewaltige Wirkungen mit einfachen Mitteln zu erreichen ist._
> 
> Händel is the unattainable master of all masters. Go to him and learn how mighty impacts are brought about with the simplest methods. (according to Ignaz Seyfried)
> 
> and:
> 
> _Händel ist der größte Komponist, der je lebte. Ich würde meine Kopfbedeckung abnehmen und auf seinem Grab knien._
> 
> Händel is the greatest composer who ever lived. I'd take off my hat and kneel on his grave. (autumn of 1823, to J. A. Stumpff)
> 
> and, to Stephan von Breuning, on his deathbed:
> 
> _Händel ist der Größte und Fähigste aller Komponisten; von ihm kann ich immer noch lernen._
> 
> Händel is the greatest and most capable of all composers, from him I can always learn something new.
> 
> Why did he think so? I think it's a simple matter of tastes, Händel's style was something that Beethoven felt kinship to. What is great about Händel is that he gets "straight to the point" but does it with the highest of eloquence, a feature that was pointed out lacking in Beethoven's music by some of his contemporaries.
> 
> I must also note that Beethoven's hearing abilities didn't have that much impact on this subject, as he studied compositions from partitures to his final days. It didn't matter which compositions he had heard in live performances, he could hear them in his mind via the written notes.


I agree absolutely. Nowhere do we find, for example, a wish to kneel at the grave of Bach. I would argue that what emerges from these statements of Beethoven's is his recognition of Handel's unrivalled impact on the listener, achieved as he says with economy of means. We could speculate that he was aware of his failure to equal Handel in the operatic field.
But it seems the proponents of Bach can't accept the evidence. Personally, I would find it hard to choose whether Beethoven or Handel is the greater, so I am happy to accept Beethoven's quoted opinion, especially as it was expressed on his deathbed.


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## nicktom

It's quite obvious to me. Handel is the greatest composer that ever lived. The third greatest (who would I place second? that's the big question) was bound to admire him.


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## hpowders

Knowing what I know about Bach's Music: WTC Books One and Two, Goldberg Variations, Keyboard Partitas, Unaccompanied Violin Sonatas and Partitas, Cello Suites, B Minor Mass, etc;

and knowing what I know about Beethoven's genius, there is no way Beethoven wouldn't have idolized Bach:

IF he was familiar with this music!! He may not have been!!


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## Woodduck

If Beethoven preferred Handel to Bach - which he is not on record as saying explicitly, but we can reasonably surmise it - there is no reason to assume that his esteem for Bach was less than complete. His preference was certainly a matter of temperament and taste. 

Beethoven tells us that he admired Handel's ability to create the most powerful effects with the simplest means. That's a perfect description of Handel's choral style. Handel and Beethoven both exploited the power of simplicity and straightforwardness, of strong strokes and vivid contrasts. We hear the basic structure of their compositions clearly articulated by the melodic and harmonic material which is most salient, the form explicitly set forth rather than used as a framework or armature for harmonic and contrapuntal complexities. Neither Handel nor Beethoven typically pursued the more far-reaching implications of harmony; Bach and Mozart, and later Schubert and Weber, are more chromatic and experimental and more interested in harmonic ambiguity. Even when Beethoven turns more and more to fugue in his late works, he uses it for dramatic effect, and its power derives in part from the way it's set off against contrasting material, paralleling Handel's striking juxtaposition of polyphonic and homophonic textures.

The thoroughgoing contrapuntal idiom of Bach, spinning out free, complex and cumulative forms, exploiting the expressive possibilities of the dissonant interweaving of voices, so apt for the meditative working out of subjective affect, was certainly as much admired and appreciated by Beethoven as it is by us. But it was less akin to the dialectical drama of the Classical aesthetic than was the overtly dramatic style of Handel.


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## isorhythm

^What Woodduck said.

Beethoven definitely did know, admire and learn from Bach's music. http://www.schillerinstitute.org/fid_97-01/002-3bach_beethoven.html


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## Woodduck

isorhythm said:


> ^What Woodduck said.
> 
> Beethoven definitely did know, admire and learn from Bach's music. http://www.schillerinstitute.org/fid_97-01/002-3bach_beethoven.html


Interesting article. Thanks.


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## KenOC

Well, several people reported (from observation) that Beethoven had three idols -- Handel, Bach, and Mozart. He knew their music well, although his exposure to Handel's broader range of music was limited until his old age. Handel he seemed to place first. Bach he called "the ancestral father of harmony" and recognized him for his breadth -- "Not a brook (bach) but an ocean." He was the first major composer to be brought up playing the 48. And he looked to Mozart, especially in his earlier years in Vienna, for specific models.

Oddly, the real bedrock of his style was his teacher Haydn, who he simply absorbed and said little about, maybe because he saw Haydn, early on, as more of a rival than a model to emulate. But he acknowledged Haydn handsomely in his old age.


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## ArtMusic

Yes, the great Handel was the most universally admired composer throughout straight after his death, needing no reviving. Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn and more.


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## Larkenfield

I believe that one can hear the bigness of spirit behind Handel's music, including sometimes in the religious sense related to biblical themes in his oratorios that sometimes dealt with loss and woe, such as in his last great one _Jephtha_. I believe that he portrayed a more loving, warmhearted Deity overall than what Bach represented, as devoted and sincere as he was. That spirit of Handel was noble, uplifting, never petty, dramatic, positive, constructive and inspiring, and I think it had a huge influence on Beethoven that can be heard in the awesome bigness of spirit in his Ninth Symphony, where he was trying to inspire the consciousness of the entire world in the direction of a great universal 'Brotherhood of Man.' That's what I would call doing something on a large scale.


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## Razumovskymas

poconoron said:


> From what I've read, Beethoven seemed to hold Handel and Mozart in particularly high regard. But apparently not JS Bach so much. Does anyone have an insight into what Beethoven particularly admired about Handel's music? I have an idea, but I'd like to hear others' opinions.


freedom and joy


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## Razumovskymas

As a Händel and Beethoven fan of course I love this petty fact. But my view is that he was more familiar with Bach during his life and discovered Händel quite late and was overwhelmed by him. There are a lot of little Bach references in his piano sonates. As Far as I know only "Die Weihe des Hauses" is more or less inspired by Händel


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## SalieriIsInnocent

I can hear shades of Handel in many of Beethoven's works. Handel was one of those composers I didn't dig into deep enough as a lad, and have really grown to appreciate a lot as I've gotten older. I can certainly understand Beethoven's great affinity for Handel. There's moments in some of Beethoven's symphonies, where I can hear nods to Handel.


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## flamencosketches

Handel is one of Beethoven's most important early precedents in terms of expressing huge, grandiose ideas and feelings in his music. Life or death type stuff. You can see this element in the big operas and oratorios, and it's something we didn't really see again until Beethoven and later composers like Wagner.

Does anyone else hear this link between the two? Not sure I'm putting it into words right.


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## Phil loves classical

Regarding Handel, where he praised him as the greatest of them all, I never took what Beethoven said seriously. He said he never learned anything from Haydn. He seemed to put values on morality and themes over music itself. He hated Mozart's Cosi fan Tutte for its immorality, but loved the Magic Flute, probably for its theme of redemption. The story in his Fidelio is a corny snoozefest of bravery (was a real pain to follow the whole libretto throughout the opera, once and will never again). Handel's oratorios is full of themes of nobility, etc., which Beethoven admired.


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## KenOC

Phil loves classical said:


> Regarding Handel, where he praised him as the greatest of them all, I never took what Beethoven said seriously. He said he never learned anything from Haydn...


I have taken this to refer to Haydn in his role as Beethoven's teacher. He seems to have been inattentive in that role, being more interested in preparing for his London trips. Ludwig soon signed up alternates such as Albrechtsberger and Salieri.

For music in general, Haydn's style was the sea in which Beethoven swam. It would be strange if he didn't realize that.


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## KenOC

Razumovskymas said:


> As a Händel and Beethoven fan of course I love this petty fact. But my view is that he was more familiar with Bach during his life and discovered Händel quite late and was overwhelmed by him. There are a lot of little Bach references in his piano sonates. As Far as I know only "Die Weihe des Hauses" is more or less inspired by Händel


Also, I think, the noisy penultimate fugue in the Diabelli Variations.

It would be interesting to analyze the Missa Solemnis in terms of influences from Bach versus Handel, but that's beyond my powers!


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## Haydn70

KenOC said:


> I have taken this to refer to Haydn in his role as Beethoven's teacher. He seems to have been inattentive in that role, being more interested in preparing for his London trips. Ludwig soon signed up alternates such as Albrechtsberger and Salieri.
> 
> For music in general, Haydn's style was the sea in which Beethoven swam. *It would be strange if he didn't realize that*.


He did realize that. He was fully aware of Haydn's genius and admired him greatly, as you have intimated in some of your posts.


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## hammeredklavier

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_in_C_major_(Beethoven)
_Beethoven had studied counterpoint in Vienna with Johann Georg Albrechtsberger, an authority in the field, but had not turned to sacred music until late in his career. He received a commission from Prince Nikolaus Esterházy II in 1807, extending a tradition established by Joseph Haydn, who for decades had served as the family's Kapellmeister (music director). Following his return from England in 1795, Haydn had composed one mass per year for the Esterházy family, to celebrate the name day of the Prince's wife. Haydn had ceased this tradition with the failure of his health in 1802. Beethoven was fully aware of the tradition that Haydn had established and it influenced him strongly in writing the Mass in C major. Beethoven confessed in a letter to the prince: "may I just say that I will hand the mass over to you with great trepidation, as Your Serene Highness is accustomed to having the inimitable masterworks of the great Haydn performed." Lewis Lockwood writes:

On accepting the prince's commission *Beethoven had praised Haydn's masses, calling them "inimitable masterpieces."* Beethoven meant it. He clearly studied Haydn's masses while composing his own, no doubt for reasons far beyond the fact that the Esterházys had commissioned it, as we see from his sketches for the Gloria. The sketches include two passes copied from the Gloria of Haydn's Schöpfungsmesse ("Creation Mass"), one of four late Haydn masses easily available to Beethoven in published editions._


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## Abdel ove Allhan

It's really very easy to understand Beethoven's affinity for Handel. Handel projected grace, simplicity, effortless contrapuntal skill in all of his major and smaller works whereas Beethoven labored intensely over many of his works. He did not compose a symphony until he was in his 30's. Handel wrote so much music at speed that he forgot some of it. When presented with oboe works from his youth he remarked that "I use to write like the devil in those days." He, Handel could evoke any emotion, any grand, etherial, contemplative, grotesque, or horrific gesture with as few or as many notes as it required. Bach was certainly an influence. Beethoven knew and could play the WTC by heart but Handel was an elemental force that Beethoven recognized as "...the greatest composer that ever lived." Today many musicians consider Bach to have taken that position. One reason may be due to the overwhelming amount of pedagogical music Bach composed. All keyboardists and string players learn Bach's WTC and solo sonatas. It's not easy to find the same sorts of works by Handel. He was too busy writing Julius Caeser and Israel in Egypt or the Coronation Anthems, grand and magnificent masterpieces that young and even mature musicians aren't usually exposed to. Opera has always been a vital part of classical music but many of Handel's contained major roles for castrati which have not been available for, well, what, centuries? It's only relatively recently that counter-tenors and have successfully mastered the technique to make it dramatically viable (see the Met's production of Agrippina) and also the judicious use of pants roles (see the same). My earliest experience of being overwhelmed by the power of music was that of Handel and I have since learned, played and studied both he and Bach intensely. I have to side with Beethoven on this one.


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## Kreisler jr

Beethoven did not do an internet ranking, so one should not assume that he had a precise order of Handel, Mozart and Bach. The main point seems to me that when Beethoven made such comments, the music he was mostly interested in was his own (rightfully so). All such comments should be taken with a grain of salt. He admired Cherubini for operas and he was irrelevant as a direct competitor in instrumental music so declaring him favorite of the living would nor ruffle any feathers. To expect that the old, ailing Beethoven, working on his late works, should have taken more than fleeting notice of Schubert, is naive.

As for Bach, Mozart and Haydn, I think Beethoven had absorbed their influence so early in his teenage years, that some encounters with Handel, especially choral works, were more vivid. Like fish don't realize they are swimming in water...

Contrary to what is sometimes claimed, Beethoven knew quite a bit of JS Bach, he had basically all the important keyboard works, including the AoF. He knew little of his choral music but probably at least excerpts of the b minor mass and maybe the St. John's Passion and a motet or two. 
As the more extrovert and public style of Handel's oratorios was closer to what Beethoven wanted to achieve with pieces like the 9th symphony, I doubt that a piece like St Matthew would have been a more important influence. If one looks at Mendelssohn's oratorios, they also still have a strong Handelian influence, although Mendelssohn knew far more Bach than Beethoven did. (And like Mozart, Mendelssohn also did an arrangement of Acis and Galatea, a piece that had remained popular.)


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## 59540

Because 1. Handel wrote some truly great music and 2. Beethoven wasn't as aware of Bach's entire output. So I think this comment


Razumovskymas said:


> As a Händel and Beethoven fan of course I love this petty fact. But my view is that he was more familiar with Bach during his life and discovered Händel quite late and was overwhelmed by him. There are a lot of little Bach references in his piano sonates. As Far as I know only "Die Weihe des Hauses" is more or less inspired by Händel


is absolutely wrong. I don't think any professional European musician in the latter half of the 18th century would've been ignorant of Handel.


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