# Drums/Percussion in Music



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

One thing I love about Classical Music is the lack of a steady beat; I prefer the more colorful flavorings found in Classical Percussion. I feel this opens the music up from a certain rigidity and helps it breath more.

What are your thoughts on drums/percussion in music?


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Now that's a big topic. As a sometimes-percussionist, there are some composers and works I abhor - the percussion parts are either boring as can be or mind numbingly repetitious (Bolero). There are some works I dread: Dvorak New World: you play triangle in the 3rd movement, and one cymbal stroke in the finale. That's it. Tchaikovsky 6th: you sit through the first two movements, then play 2/3 of the way through the 3rd movement, then wait for ONE tam-tam stroke in the finale. Brahms is the worst: in the 4th you play triangle only in the 3rd movement then sit. Beethoven 9th: you sit and sit and then play bass drum or cymbals or triangle in the middle and end of the finale. Now Rossini knew how to write good, challenging percussion parts as the overtures readily show. Verdi was quite predictable.

Some composers were geniuses at how to use percussion, none more than Rimsky-Korsakov. Take Scheherazade. No percussion in the first movement. In the 2nd only triangle and cymbals. In the 3rd he uses triangle, snare drum, and tambourine. In the finale, all of the above plus bass drum. And all of the parts of wonderful to play - they are fun and challenging.


Tchaikovsky was another who knew exactly how to use percussion as The Nutcracker clearly demonstrates. Tasteful and never overpowering. Mahler made huge demands but knew what he was doing. I love playing both composers.

There are some parts that I still struggle with desperately: the glockenspiel part in Sorcerer's Apprentice, the snare part in Nielsen's 5th, the xylophone part in Firebird Suite. There's so much to percussion that a real discussion would require a book.

But in all this music and so much more, the percussion section adds the spice and glitter to a score that really punches it up and adds excitement like nothing else. Drummers are often overlooked and sometimes looked down upon by other instrumental players. There is no section that has more wide ranging and demanding skills. To be good, you have to play everything from snare drum, cymbals, bass drum, tam tam, all the keyboard instrument, the "toys" (claves, triangle, castanets, tambourine, guiro, maracas, whip, various whistles) then somehow find a way to manage the changes in the score since you're often playing several instruments on the same pieces. It's harder than people realize. I know of three conductors who were percussionists and their sense of rhythm shows: Simon Rattle, Chris Seaman, and Harold Farberman. Any others?


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## Euler (Dec 3, 2017)

I love these:


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

mbhaub said:


> Now that's a big topic. As a sometimes-percussionist, there are some composers and works I abhor - the percussion parts are either boring as can be or mind numbingly repetitious (Bolero). There are some works I dread: Dvorak New World: you play triangle in the 3rd movement, and one cymbal stroke in the finale. That's it. Tchaikovsky 6th: you sit through the first two movements, then play 2/3 of the way through the 3rd movement, then wait for ONE tam-tam stroke in the finale. Brahms is the worst: in the 4th you play triangle only in the 3rd movement then sit. Beethoven 9th: you sit and sit and then play bass drum or cymbals or triangle in the middle and end of the finale. Now Rossini knew how to write good, challenging percussion parts as the overtures readily show. Verdi was quite predictable.
> 
> Some composers were geniuses at how to use percussion, none more than Rimsky-Korsakov. Take Scheherazade. No percussion in the first movement. In the 2nd only triangle and cymbals. In the 3rd he uses triangle, snare drum, and tambourine. In the finale, all of the above plus bass drum. And all of the parts of wonderful to play - they are fun and challenging.
> 
> ...


Very insightful post.

I was going to add that while I appreciate the more minimalistic/colorful percussion found in Classical Music, I wouldn't want to be one.

I sympathize with wanting challenging parts as a performer, but I do care first about writing what the composer feels is right.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Very insightful post.
> 
> I do care first about writing what the composer feels is right.


Even that is a minefield. Did the composer want a high pitched "tight" snare sound or a deeper one? Are the 4-stroke ruffs to be tight or not? What size cymbal and what depth does he want? There are so many questions that percussionists have to address. Most conductors are totally clueless. Even something that sounds as innocuous as "bass drum" will create debate. What size? What skins? What mallet? How is the drum tuned? Muffle or not? It's awful. Of course, composers too often are vague. Now in modern music, as the above videos demonstrate, many composers really take time with percussion parts and take great care to indicate what they want and how they want it to sound.


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2018)

I think percussion has been mainly used for timbral qualities and the intensity of their sound.

There are a number of percussion works I really love, but in terms of music where a sense of beat is _really _dissolved I would have to say that this is a favourite of mine:






I feel that this piece really _breathes_.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

shirime said:


> I think percussion has been mainly used for timbral qualities and the intensity of their sound.
> 
> There are a number of percussion works I really love, but in terms of music where a sense of beat is _really _dissolved I would have to say that this is a favourite of mind:
> 
> ...


I find it a bit hard to take that work seriously, but thanks for sharing it! It's like the hipster side of Classical Music, which is fine.


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2018)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I find it a bit hard to take that work seriously, but thanks for sharing it! It's like the hipster side of Classical Music, which is fine.


No worries. 
'The hipster side of Classical Music' seems like a fun way to put it, actually!


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## techniquest (Aug 3, 2012)

mbhaub wrote:


> Some composers were geniuses at how to use percussion, none more than Rimsky-Korsakov. Take Scheherazade. No percussion in the first movement. In the 2nd only triangle and cymbals. In the 3rd he uses triangle, snare drum, and tambourine. In the finale, all of the above plus bass drum. And all of the parts of wonderful to play - they are fun and challenging.
> 
> Tchaikovsky was another who knew exactly how to use percussion as The Nutcracker clearly demonstrates. Tasteful and never overpowering. Mahler made huge demands but knew what he was doing. I love playing both composers.
> 
> There are some parts that I still struggle with desperately: the glockenspiel part in Sorcerer's Apprentice, the snare part in Nielsen's 5th, the xylophone part in Firebird Suite. There's so much to percussion that a real discussion would require a book.


I have always enjoyed the percussion section of the symphony orchestra and my record collection reflects this interest rather obviously. I really enjoyed reading the above - and who would have expected Dukas to be cited in a thread about percussion? 
I like Wagner's approach to percussion; he can use instruments to really colour a piece, or can create a whole new effect (who can fail to be impressed by the 18 anvils he uses in 'Das Rheingold'?). I think that Mahler uses percussion in very much the Wagnerian vein, but he develops the section's use. The very quiet bass drum hits just after the start of the 3rd symphony for example; the low and high tam-tams throughout the 2nd (so often overlooked by recording engineers as to render them inaudible); the rute in the several symphonies, the cowbells in the 6th and sleigh bells in the 4th...the list goes on. In my opinion, Mahler's use of the very low harp strings at times feels as though he is using this instrument as an addition to the percussion.
Discussing this particular musical lineage brings me rather naturally to Shostakovich whose use of percussion carried on in a very similar style, but often even more of it. The clicking and tapping sounds in the 4th and 15th symphonies, the massed drum/cymbal/tam-tam breaks in the 8th and 11th; the single doom-laden tolling bell in the 13th, and the huge crashing tam-tam in the same work (listen to Barshai's recording for the best demonstration of this).
I'm not so keen on works that are scored purely for percussion, though Varese was a true master at this; and I'm also not keen on percussion concerti mainly, I think, because they tend concentrate so much on the marimba. Gosh so much to say, but my posts are often thread-killers so I'll stop rambling now.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

techniquest said:


> mbhaub wrote:
> 
> I have always enjoyed the percussion section of the symphony orchestra and my record collection reflects this interest rather obviously. I really enjoyed reading the above - and who would have expected Dukas to be cited in a thread about percussion?
> I like Wagner's approach to percussion; he can use instruments to really colour a piece, or can create a whole new effect (who can fail to be impressed by the 18 anvils he uses in 'Das Rheingold'?). I think that Mahler uses percussion in very much the Wagnerian vein, but he develops the section's use. The very quiet bass drum hits just after the start of the 3rd symphony for example; the low and high tam-tams throughout the 2nd (so often overlooked by recording engineers as to render them inaudible); the rute in the several symphonies, the cowbells in the 6th and sleigh bells in the 4th...the list goes on. In my opinion, Mahler's use of the very low harp strings at times feels as though he is using this instrument as an addition to the percussion.
> ...


I enjoyed reading your insight, thanks for your thoughts! You fed the thread, you didn't kill it at all!


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

The variety and challenges of classical percussion are evident and are an important part of the fabric of DM. (Aside: Many years ago I attended a concert by the Percussion de Strasbourg and was captivated).

However, sometime in the '60s or '70s it was decreed that pop music wasn't music unless accompanied by an endless and steady beat, which did and does drive me crazy and has mostly driven me away from contemporary popular music. (That and the volume.)


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

MarkW said:


> The variety and challenges of classical percussion are evident and are an important part of the fabric of DM. (Aside: Many years ago I attended a concert by the Percussion de Strasbourg and was captivated).
> 
> However, sometime in the '60s or '70s it was decreed that pop music wasn't music unless accompanied by an endless and steady beat, which did and does drive me crazy and has mostly driven me away from contemporary popular music. (That and the volume.)


You noted on volume in this thread of mine and the acoustic instrument thread I just posted. That's another thing I love about Classical Concerts, your ears aren't being pushed to the maximum and your mind can actually absorb, and your ears can actually hear, all the fine details.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Captainnumber36 said:


> You noted on volume in this thread of mine and the acoustic instrument thread I just posted. That's another thing I love about Classical Concerts, your ears aren't being pushed to the maximum and your mind can actually absorb, and your ears can actually hear, all the fine details.


Yes. I don't get, and have never gotten, the need for music to be ear-splitting. What's the point?


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

There's nothing I love to see more in an orchestra than percussionists really enjoying themselves, especially the timpanist, being a drummer myself. Nielsen always made wonderful use of percussion, and may be the most percussion-oriented of all symphonists, with the rare use of snare drum in the 4th.

I know my Bruckner obsession may be getting boring, but check out Peter Sadlo's joyous thunder throughout the whole Scherzo especially at *37:22* in one of music's most orgasmic moments, if you'll excuse the (unavoidable) metaphor:


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

There are examples when percussion really adds depth to the orchestra palette. For example, Bruckner (already mentioned above) frequently uses timpani as substitute for organ pedal point (ever wondered why he had never composed for orchestra+organ, being a masterful organist-virtuoso?) Watch following video from 17:05 onwards, notice how Abbado directs timpanist through this passage, this is one of the best performances available - not too rumbling, not too muffled, just perfect:






There are of course many more "brutal" examples of utilizing percussion in classical music (percussion fugue from "The Nose" comes to mind or, for instance, the eruption episode in Mount St.Helens Symphony). To be honest, I am pretty much on the "nay" side of listeners, as I try not to treat my eardrums this way for any prolonged periods of time.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Ooooooh! Be careful there! In some circles, timpani players do not consider themselves mere percussionists. They get offended easily! As far as orchestral management goes, the timpani and percussion sections are two different sections. To a layman it might seem silly, and I agree. I still recall an episode in my youth when we were playing something that needed 5 percussionists at one point and the manager only hired 4. As is happens, the timpani was tacet at that point so I stupidly asked the timpanist if he would cover one part for triangle. He bellowed at me, "I am no drummer! Get someone else." Then I asked a trombone player who was also idle - he gleefully, and correctly played the part. And didn't have for doubling fees!


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## techniquest (Aug 3, 2012)

mbhaub, that's interesting to read what you say regarding the status of the timpani. I did wonder in your opening post when you stated that the first movement of Scheherazade has no percussion when it does, of course, have timpani; but now I understand. Thank you.
There's a thread on here about 'The Pines of Rome' by Respighi which is another work which I love and which has a whole range of percussion in the score. Strangely it is another which, along with Mahler 2, has an important part for the tam-tam that is often very poorly recorded, almost at times to the point of absence.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

mbhaub said:


> Ooooooh! Be careful there! In some circles, timpani players do not consider themselves mere percussionists. They get offended easily! As far as orchestral management goes, the timpani and percussion sections are two different sections. To a layman it might seem silly, and I agree. I still recall an episode in my youth when we were playing something that needed 5 percussionists at one point and the manager only hired 4. As is happens, the timpani was tacet at that point so I stupidly asked the timpanist if he would cover one part for triangle. He bellowed at me, "I am no drummer! Get someone else." Then I asked a trombone player who was also idle - he gleefully, and correctly played the part. And didn't have for doubling fees!


Well, I think they're percussionists whether they like it or not. Of course the timpani has a musical pitch, so we might say they straddle the line between bass and percussion, but I see no problem in placing them in both groups.


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