# Questions about conductors and their arm waving style



## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

I'm a relatively new listener, and I was just sitting here watching a performance of rite of spring and I thought of a few questions I'm sure somebody knows the answer to. Everybody knows that some conductors have erratic and crazy conducting styles. I mean the way they move their hands around, almost creating a spectacle of themselves. What is the modern trend with this? Is it popular, or do some do it and others don't? What's the general opinion of most people concerning it? Is it looked down upon as flashy or distracting from the music? Was there ever a period of time (or perhaps region) where it was entirely looked down upon and the conductor is more or less a statuelike metronome? Also, does anybody have good video examples of the craziest conductors?


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

As far as I know most conductors are pretty normal in their conducting style, but of course there are those with exagerated gestures and the like. I personally don't mind but I know some who do, and look down upon conductors like Dudamel, etc.
As for examples of "crazy" conductors:









And this fits the "statuelike metronome" thing:


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Dedalus said:


> What is the modern trend with this?


I think it may be more common today than it used to be.



> Is it popular, or do some do it and others don't?


Conductors are all over the board in terms of this, from Boulez and Strauss on the one side to Bernstein and Dudamel on the other.



> What's the general opinion of most people concerning it? Is it looked down upon as flashy or distracting from the music?


Sometimes. I personally don't think it's generally an act for the audience so much as the conductor trying to push the orchestra for what he or she wants.



> Was there ever a period of time (or perhaps region) where it was entirely looked down upon and the conductor is more or less a statuelike metronome?


In the late 19th century, demonstrative conductors were rare. Mahler was often criticized for moving around a good deal on the podium, but his interpretations were so revelatory (even when he couldn't be seen by the audience, as when conducting opera) that it was accepted by many, at least at first before the anti-Semitic crusade against him heated up. There are some famous caricatures of him that indicate how he looked while conducting:










(Be aware that he was a rather short man; one biographer noted a link between height and conducting style)



> Also, does anybody have good video examples of the craziest conductors?


I'll leave that one up to others....


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

OPie, you can do the legwork for some energetic examples--Nelsons, Dudamel, A. Davis, Dutoit.:tiphat:


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Knappertsbusch was said to conduct with his cufflinks. Worked for him.

A couple of years ago one or two conductors got so worked up they fell off the podium and were injured. Many orchestras now use podiums with railings surrounding three sides. Lully of course died from a conducting mishap.


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

On the other hand, Fritz Reiner was legendary for having an infinitesimal beat - which he would rein in orchestras with by making even smaller.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Well, as for Boulez..........
No stick, no flashy style, but that doesn't mean he didn't have _style_


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

I remember watching *Guido Cantelli* conduct and I swear up and down his waving style was so flowing and suave that I find myself mesmerized (and with profundity in expression). A real shame that he passed on so young. *Claudio Abbado* and to some extent, *Svetlanov* comes to mind as flowing with their hand movements (as does *Pappano*). But *Solti*, my goodness was he flashy and intense, quite like *Bernstein*, but decidedly more hectic (quite the opposite of, say, *Kubelik*, who strikes me as analytical). *Toscanini'*s arm waving looks fairly mechanical, but not unfeeling, while *Karajan's* motion is majestic, flowing, but with a certain symmetry.


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## Skilmarilion (Apr 6, 2013)

Gergiev has one of the more individual conducting styles, it often described as 'finger painting'. His use of a toothpick as baton can also be filed under "unusual", to say the least.

In any event, I don't think a conductor's gestures/habits are all that important, so long as they can effectively 'speak to' the orchestra.


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## The nose (Jan 14, 2014)

Dedalus said:


> I'm a relatively new listener, and I was just sitting here watching a performance of *rite of spring* [...]


If you go see the score of te Rite of spring you will see that in some passages it changes meter almost each measure. So it's pretty normal to get lost watching the conductor.


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## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Well, as for Boulez..........
> No stick, no flashy style, but that doesn't mean he didn't have _style_


Yes, he's got a tight, noble style. But also vigorous (perhaps less so in recent years due to his age). And best of all, no grimacing.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Check out on YouTube, Leonard Bernstein conducting the Vienna Philharmonic in the final movement of Haydn's Symphony No. 88. His arms are completely still. He communicates with his eyes and facial expression-mostly a satisfied smile!


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

hpowders said:


> Check out on YouTube, Leonard Bernstein conducting the Vienna Philharmonic in the final movement of Haydn's Symphony No. 88. His arms are completely still. He communicates with his eyes and facial expression-mostly a satisfied smile!


I just checked it out, hahaaa what an easy job it is to be a conductor when you're as boss as Bernstein


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I just checked it out, hahaaa what an easy job it is to be a conductor when you're as boss as Bernstein


Heck the VPO can make me look good too.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

This is still the best video of anyone conducting anything ever


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I was fortunate to subscribe to the New York Philharmonic during the Pierre Boulez years. Made Zubin Mehta look like a rank amateur.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> This is still the best video of anyone conducting anything ever


Heil Webern !!! :lol:


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## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> This is still the best video of anyone conducting anything ever


It almost seems as if he's come up with a kind of notation for his conducting motions.

Too bad the shades never caught on.


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2014)

Andreas said:


> Too bad the shades never caught on.


The shades may not have caught on, but conducting with palms out and down still reigns supreme...


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Karajan apparently would sometimes stop conducting all together. It is unclear whether it was because he was going into a music-induced trance or whether it was just to make sure the orchestra were on their toes!


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## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

MacLeod said:


> The shades may not have caught on, but conducting with palms out and down still reigns supreme...


It would seem that using both hands in synch and refraining from micro-gestures like making a fist or wiggling the fingers etc. was limiting one's expressive resources as a conductor. But I suppose that's part of his philosophy.

While I love watching Boulez and generally prefer a more restrained approach to conducting, I have always been mesmerized by the way Glenn Gould conducted. Highly expressive, as was his (self-)conducting at the piano, but at the same time very dignified. Apparently, he didn't believe in the baton either. Not sure if the choice is usually a Freudian thing. Anyway, a shame we never got to see more of his conducting.


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2014)

Andreas said:


> It would seem that using both hands in synch and refraining from micro-gestures like making a fist or wiggling the fingers etc. was limiting one's expressive resources as a conductor. But I suppose that's part of his philosophy.
> 
> While I love watching Boulez and generally prefer a more restrained approach to conducting, I have always been mesmerized by the way Glenn Gould conducted. Highly expressive, as was his (self-)conducting at the piano, but at the same time very dignified. Apparently, he didn't believe in the baton either. Not sure if the choice is usually a Freudian thing. Anyway, a shame we never got to see more of his conducting.


He looks like he's playing air-violin at times!

I prefer a conductor who seems to be involved with, but not lost in the music. Assuming that what we see in performance is the outcome of what has been agreed in rehearsal, I see no reason for a conductor to put on an extravagant show for the benefit of looking like s/he's doing something. On the other hand, one who seems only to worry about whether the orchestra is playing it right, and so takes a back seat if all is going well, is too laid back for me. I'm not keen on the emoting you see from Bernstein, or the 'imperial dictator' that you get with HvK.

I like Thomas Søndergård, who seems to have the balance right.


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## Chris (Jun 1, 2010)

Jean-Baptiste Lully's style included hitting players on the back of the head with violins.


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