# Pieces requiring Massive Orchestras



## mahlernerd

I know of Schoenberg’s Gurre-Lieder, Brian’s 1st Symphony, Berlioz’s Requiem, and Mahler 8, but are there any other pieces that REQUIRE massive orchestras

I am not talking about specific performances that used more than the required amount, like the 10,000 people Beethoven 9. Rather, what pieces require larger orchestras.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Messiaen's Turangalila, Strauss's Alpine Symphony and many other tone-poems; Shostakovich 7, Ives 4 off the top of my head.


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## Heck148

Wagner "Ring" requires large orchestral forces...lots of extra instruments...Wagner tubas, bass trumpets, contra bass trombone, huge horn section...
Varese- calls for large orchestras - esp "Arcana", "Ameriques"....huge percussion section...massive battery.


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## annaw

Heck148 said:


> Wagner "Ring" requires large orchestral forces...lots of extra instruments...Wagner tubas, bass trumpets, contra bass trombone, huge horn section...
> Varese- calls for large orchestras - esp "Arcana", "Ameriques"....huge percussion section...massive battery.


Yup, all of the later operas of Wagner require quite massive orchestras (especially considering they are operas). Vaughan Williams' Sea Symphony also has a big orchestra and I suppose that at least some of the Bruckner symphonies require that too.


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## Rogerx

Berlioz- Requiem Mass (Grande Messe des Morts) is scored for 429 musicians (218 instruments, 211 singers)

Brian- Symphony No. 1 .
Just two from the top of my head.


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## mikeh375

Britten's War Requiem....full orchestra, chamber orchestra, full choir, boy's choir, soprano, tenor and bass solos.
Henze's 7th Symphony...enormous band...quadruple wind (including Hecklephone!), 6 horns, 6 trumpets, 5 bones (including contra bass trombone), a massive array of percussion, harp, piano, celesta and strings.....not performed too often.

(I once sang in the chorus at the Albert Hall for a live radio3 broadcast in front of the Queen in a performance of 'Messiah' that combined the orchestral and choral forces of all three of the major Musical Colleges in London under Sir David Wilcox. That was a big, big (and doubtless inappropriate) sound, but not relevant here. It was fun though).


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## Enthusiast

I may be wrong - he isn't a composer who has much interested me - but isn't Jon Leifs noted for creating music that is louder than anyone else's? Presumably this requires big orchestras.


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## timh

Havergal BRIAN: Symphony No.3
In C sharp minor, 4 movements, 1931-32.

2 solo pianos.

2 piccolos, 4 flutes (2 also piccolos), 4 oboes (2 also cors anglais), 4 clarinets (2 also bass clarinets), E flat clarinet, 4 bassoons, 1 contrabassoon, 8 horns, 4 trumpets, 4 trombones, 2 tubas, 2 timpanists, bass drum, side drum, tenor drum, cymbals, tam-tam, triangle, tambourine, castanets, organ ad lib, 2 harps, celesta, strings.

Havergal BRIAN: Symphony No.4
‘Das Siegeslied’, 3 movements, 1932-33.

Soprano solo, double SATB choir and orchestra: 6 flutes (2 also piccolo, 1 also alto fl), 2 oboes, 2 oboi d’amore, 2 cors anglais, bass oboe, Eb clarinet, 4 Bb clarinets, 2 basset horns, 2 bass clarinet, pedal clarinet, 4 bassoons, 2 contra bassoons, 8 horns, 4 trumpets, 5 trombones, 2 tubas, 2 sets timpani, tam-tam, cymbals, bass drum, 3 side drums, tambourine, triangle, bell, 2 harps, glockenspiel, xylophone, organ, celeste, strings.


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## mbhaub

Gliere 3rd symphony
Schmidt 2nd symphony
Mahler 2nd
Mahler Das Klangende Lied


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## MarkW

I think Walton's "Belshazzar's Feast" was originally written for inflated festival forces.


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## Roger Knox

Joseph Marx -- Autumn Symphony (_Eine Herbstsymphonie_).


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## MusicSybarite

Shostakovich - Symphony No. 4
Kalevi Aho - Symphony No. 6 (not officially recorded yet because of the huge orchestra it needs AFAIK)


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## maestro267

Messiaen's last completed work Eclairs sur l'au-dela calls for a massive orchestra:

3pic.6fl.afl.3.corA.2Ebcl.6.bcl.cbcl.3.cbsn / 6hn.5tpt.3trb.2btb.cbtb / 5 keyboard percussion.10 other percussion / 16.16.14.12.10


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## superhorn

The "Gothic " symphony by Havergal Brian calls for a mind-bogglingly large and varied orchestra , choruses, a children's chorus , four antiphonal brass bands similar to the Berlioz Requiem , 4 vocal soloists etc - the proverbial kitchen sink .


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## adriesba

Most of what is mentioned seems to be longer works. I thought I read once about a good shorter, maybe 10-15 minutes, piece that isn't performed much because of how many performers it requires. Anyone know what it is? I can't remember.


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## Op.123

How are you all forgetting Stockhausen's Gruppen? It's split into three orchestras!

*Orchestra I*

Woodwinds

1 flute (doubling piccolo)
1 alto flute
1 oboe
1 English horn
1 clarinet
1 bassoon

Brass

2 horns (high and low)
2 trumpets
2 trombones (2nd with bass valve)
1 bass tuba

Percussion (4 percussionists)

1 marimbaphone (5 octaves) or 4-octave marimbaphone plus xylophone for highest octave
1 glockenspiel
5 cowbells [Almglocken] (suspended, without clappers): pitches 1, 4, 7, 10, 13
4 metal instruments, pitches 1, 4, 7, 10:
1 tamtam (large)
3 cymbals (large, medium, small)
2 wood drums (African slotted drums, each with 2 pitches): pitches 1, 7 / 4, 10
4 drums: tomtoms and/or tumbas and bongos (in the high register): pitches 1, 4, 7, 10
1 snare drum (shallow jazz drum, very bright sound)
1 tambourine (with either small bells or jingles)

Keyboards

1 keyboard glockenspiel (or celesta)

Strings

1 harp
10 violins
2 violas
4 cellos
2 double basses

*Orchestra II*

Woodwinds

2 flutes (1st doubling piccolo)
1 oboe
1 piccolo clarinet
1 alto saxophone (doubling clarinet)
1 baritone saxophone
1 bassoon

Brass

3 horns (1st and 3rd higher, 2nd lower)
2 trumpets
1 trombone
1 bass trombone

Percussion (4 percussionists)

1 vibraphone
14 tubular bells
4 cowbells [Almglocken] (suspended, without clappers): pitches 2, 5, 8, 11
4 metal instruments, pitches 2, 5, 8, 11:
1 tamtam (medium)
3 cymbals (large, medium, small)
2 wood drums (African slotted drums, each with 2 pitches): pitches 2, 8 / 5, 11
4 drums: tomtoms and/or tumbas and bongos (in the high register)
1 snare drum (shallow jazz drum, very bright sound)
1 tambourine (with either small bells or jingles)
1 ratchet
2 triangles (1 higher, 1 lower)

Keyboards

1 [grand] piano (without cover)

Strings

1 electric guitar
8 violins
4 violas
2 cellos
2 double basses

*Orchestra III*

Woodwinds

1 flute (doubling piccolo)
1 oboe
1 English horn
1 clarinet
1 bass clarinet
1 bassoon

Brass

3 horns (1st and 3rd higher, 2nd lower)
2 trumpets
2 trombones (both with bass valve)
1 contrabass trombone (or tuba)

Percussion (4 percussionists)

1 xylorimba (4 octaves) [according to the list of instruments in the preface; in the score itself, a marimbaphone is specified]
4 cowbells [Almglocken] (suspended, without clappers): pitches 3, 6, 9, 12
4 metal instruments, pitches 3, 6, 9, 12:
1 tamtam (small)
3 cymbals (large, medium, small)
2 wood drums (African slotted drums, each with 2 pitches): pitches 3, 9 / 6, 12
4 drums: tomtoms and/or tumbas and bongos (in the high register)
1 snare drum (shallow jazz drum, very bright sound)
1 tambourine (with small bells or jingles)

Keyboards

1 celesta (5 octaves)

Strings

1 harp
8 violins
4 violas
2 cellos
2 double basses


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## Alfacharger

adriesba said:


> Most of what is mentioned seems to be longer works. I thought I read once about a good shorter, maybe 10-15 minutes, piece that isn't performed much because of how many performers it requires. Anyone know what it is? I can't remember.


Maybe the Grand Grand Overture by Malcolm Arnold.

"A 20th-century parody of the late 19th century concert overture, scored for an enormous orchestra with organ, additional brass instruments, and obbligato parts for four rifles, three Hoover vacuum cleaners (two uprights in B♭, one horizontal with detachable sucker in C), and an electric floor polisher in E♭; it is dedicated to President Hoover!"

https://www.classicfm.com/radio/sho...d-know/overtures-and-openings/malcolm-arnold/


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## adriesba

Alfacharger said:


> Maybe the Grand Grand Overture by Malcolm Arnold.
> 
> "A 20th-century parody of the late 19th century concert overture, scored for an enormous orchestra with organ, additional brass instruments, and obbligato parts for four rifles, three Hoover vacuum cleaners (two uprights in B♭, one horizontal with detachable sucker in C), and an electric floor polisher in E♭; it is dedicated to President Hoover!"
> 
> https://www.classicfm.com/radio/sho...d-know/overtures-and-openings/malcolm-arnold/


Wow! That's interesting, but that's not what I was thinking about. I want to say it might have been a piece by Edward Elgar, but I could be way off.


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## Hilarius

A rather short piece that is often played by as many as 170 musicians (as mentioned by the German presenter in the attached performace by Dudamel and the Simon Bolivar Yoth Orchestra) is Silvestre Revueltas's Sensemaya:




Regards
Hilarius


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## sstucky

*Belshazzar*



MarkW said:


> I think Walton's "Belshazzar's Feast" was originally written for inflated festival forces.


 Yes, including two brass bands.


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## Richannes Wrahms

adriesba said:


> Most of what is mentioned seems to be longer works. I thought I read once about a good shorter, maybe 10-15 minutes, piece that isn't performed much because of how many performers it requires. Anyone know what it is? I can't remember.


Ligeti's Atmospheres and Lontano last about 9 minutes and 12 minutes respectively though their orchestras are less gigantic than one may think.


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## adriesba

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Ligeti's Atmospheres and Lontano last about 9 minutes and 12 minutes respectively though their orchestras are less gigantic than one may think.


I think whatever I was thinking about was earlier than that. I'm sort of thinking it might have been by Elgar, but I don't know.


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## Richannes Wrahms

Boulez' Pli selon pli requires quite a massive array of percussion, so do the Notations for orchestra.


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## Knorf

Stravinsky's three early ballets in their original versions all required very large orchestras, especially Le Sacre: quadruple to sextuple woodwinds, extra brass, lots of percussion.


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## BRHiler

Elliott Carter's Symphony of Three Orchestras should qualify

John Corigliano's Symphony #3 "Circus Maximus" also requires 3 ensembles of winds and percussion. There's an ensemble on the stage, then a "surround sound" ensemble spread throughout the theater, and then a "marching" band that starts in the back of the theater.


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## Richannes Wrahms

*Ades' Tevot* requires quintuple winds, 8 horns, 5 trumpets, 3 trombones, 2 tubas, 2 timpani players, 6 percussion players, harp, piano and strings.


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## adriesba

adriesba said:


> Most of what is mentioned seems to be longer works. I thought I read once about a good shorter, maybe 10-15 minutes, piece that isn't performed much because of how many performers it requires. Anyone know what it is? I can't remember.


I finally found out what I was trying to remember - It's Stravinsky's _Le Roi des étoiles_!


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## mparta

I've been reading Mallarme and this post made me think to look at recordings of Pli Selon Pli.

Maybe the most telling catalogue I've ever encountered.

On Amazon, there is no performance by anyone other than Boulez.

I heard Boulez with the LA Phil many years ago, one of his works which didn't make enough impression for me to remember which it was !! and a very fine La Mer.

Stravinsky at his snarkiest: Pli Selon Pli, both boringly pretty and pretty boring. That's what we get for letting him learn English.


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## Knorf

_Pli selon pli_ is awesome! I have three recordings of it (yes, all Boulez, since he was such a great and intimidating conductor, but more will come.) I found it gorgeous and fascinating when I first heard it, and I still do whenever I listen again, which I have many times.


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