# Do you find Brahms overly sentimental?



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I think I do, in my brief exposure to his music. Too much emotion, not enough logic, the opposite of Bach.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Maybe not jump to conclusions based on brief exposure? I find nothing sentimental in his work. And I rank both Bach and Brahms in my personal top 3.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Sentimentality aside, where do you find Brahms lacking in "logic"? I find his structures compellingly tight. It's one of the things I appreciate most about him.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)




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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Strange - over the years I've read more about logic OVER emotion when it came to Brahms rather than the other way around...saying things like 'built on solid foundations' etc. 

I for one have never thought of Brahms' music as overly sentimental so I can't put myself in your shoes, unfortunately. That said, I've never though of it as po-faced either.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Have to agree with Woodduck, Capt'n. Brahms is logical if anything. Personally I can find some of his stuff oversentimental, but that could be the performer, as some avoid going over.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Sentimentality aside, where do you find Brahms lacking in "logic"? I find his structures compellingly tight. It's one of the things I appreciate most about him.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> Sentimentality aside, where do you find Brahms lacking in "logic"? I find his structures compellingly tight. It's one of the things I appreciate most about him.


I think he's referring within the Classical/Neo-Classical genre.

You may look at one of Brahms's paintings and find it blurry, but he's tricking you. Start pairing the paintings together as they succeed, and you witness the detailed landscape and logic. One thing to learn about Brahms is his logical argument is more spread out. It's all still there, it just takes a bit of suspension


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

No!xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Botschaft said:


>


You beat me to it.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Ethereality said:


> I think he's referring within the Classical/Neo-Classical genre.
> 
> You may look at one of Brahms's paintings and find it blurry, but he's tricking you. Start pairing the paintings together as they succeed, and you witness the detailed landscape and logic. One thing to learn about Brahms is his logical argument is more spread out. It's all still there, it just takes a bit of suspension


I assume you are speaking of his music when you say paintings?


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I assume you are speaking of his music when you say paintings?


Yes. Also I agree with you on the sentimental aspect of Brahms, mabne that was part of his genius that he could express so much emotion in the little things, by choosing the spread his structure to be bigger, making room for both.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

You have 'funny' thoughts, Captain.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I think I do, in my brief exposure to his music. Too much emotion, not enough logic, the opposite of Bach.


What do you mean by logic here?

By the way, have you heard the passacaglia, the final movement, of the fourth symphony?


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Red Terror said:


> You have 'funny' thoughts, Captain.


I'm quite aware. This post was secretly inspired to prove Mozart had a great balance of emotion and logic.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> What do you mean by logic here?
> 
> By the way, have you heard the passacaglia, the final movement, of the fourth symphony?


As Woodock picked up on, structures and temperament displayed by the melody.


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## Chilham (Jun 18, 2020)

No.

This should be a


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> As Woodock picked up on, structures and temperament displayed by the melody.


I think I see. But one last question. Is this logical or sentimental or both?


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Did Brahms ever write something this sentimental?


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Surely both to some degree, but leaning towards sentimental. This piece feels very dramatic.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Did Brahms ever write something this sentimental?


I enjoy this very much.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

OT - No. 

Next question!


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Classical enthusiasts need to stop calling obvious sentimental indulgences 'Harmonic ingenuities.'

Edit: That was accidentally harsh. I shouldn't expect the majority of people to have a master of music theory.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Surely both to some degree, but leaning towards sentimental. This piece feels very dramatic.


Right, but it's also logical in your sense of having a very well defined structure. My point is that the dualism of your opening post, logic and sentiment, is in fact not in opposition. Yo can write very tight, logical music which is really expressive.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> Right, but it's also logical in your sense of having a very well defined structure. My point is that the dualism of your opening post, logic and sentiment, is in fact not in opposition. Yo can write very tight, logical music which is really expressive.


That's almost my point, and that Mozart did it to my likings best.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I think I do, in my brief exposure to his music. Too much emotion, not enough logic, the opposite of Bach.


Key words in your post "brief exposure" - hence, you are misunderstanding Brahms completely if you think his music lacks logic. In fact, if there has been a consistent criticism of Brahms it has been that his music is "dry" or "pedantic." Which means people sometimes find his music to be overly cerebral, or in other words, too logical.

Brahms was very concerned with issues of form and development - but of which utilize logic, planning, and a concern for structural issues, i.e.building his musical work like an architecturally sound structure.

Finally, Brahms's music shares a lot with Bach, at least for me both composers combine a rigorous compositional technique without sacrificing emotion and beauty. Bach's music has been described as taking four notes and building a cathedral. I think the same could be said about Brahms.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

I find him aesthetically appealing a good deal of the time. 

overly sentimental? not that I can ever recall.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Brahms? .


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

In my teen years, when I was just getting acquainted with Brahms, I had a high school algebra teacher who loved classical music and asked me what I thought of Brahms. I said I didn't care for him. Mr. Novelli asked, "Too emotional for you?" I said, "Not emotional enough."

A few years later the question seemed irrelevant, and amusing in retrospect. I perceive the music of Brahms as an integrated whole, a body of work of the utmost integrity that justifies itself in every way. I do not understand the word "sentimental" as applied to it. I do know that the word is rarely a compliment.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> In my teen years, when I was just getting acquainted with Brahms, I had a high school algebra teacher who loved classical music and asked me what I thought of Brahms. I said I didn't care for him. Mr. Novelli asked, "Too emotional for you?" I said, "Not emotional enough."
> 
> A few years later the question seemed irrelevant, and amusing in retrospect. I perceive the music of Brahms as an integrated whole, a body of work of the utmost integrity that justifies itself in every way. I do not understand the word "sentimental" as applied to it. I do know that the word is rarely a compliment.


Keep enjoying then!   In all honesty, I think Satie is my favorite composer, though I still think Mozart had the best balance between logic and emotion.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> Sentimentality aside, where do you find Brahms lacking in "logic"? I find his structures compellingly tight. It's one of the things I appreciate most about him.


Same here - in fact, I've heard Brahms criticized for being too rigid, turgid, stiff in form and structure....I don't buy that, or the "overly sentimental" charge.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

I think it was Aries, who criticized Brahms about his use of staccatos/pizzicatos. But maybe it is Brahms' way of "restraining" himself of overly-sentimental expressions?


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## RogerWaters (Feb 13, 2017)

_adjective_
-expressive of or appealing to sentiment, especially the tender emotions and feelings, as love, pity, or nostalgia:a sentimental song.
-pertaining to or dependent on sentiment: We kept the old photograph for purely sentimental reasons.
-weakly emotional; mawkishly susceptible or tender: the sentimental Victorians.

I think Brahms can often tend towards the sentimental, on some of the above definitions. But this is a question of 'semantics' not 'syntax': it's a product if what his themes (often) express, not how these themes are expounded and related to one another in the unfolding of a piece.

In short, I don't by the premise that sentimental music is necessarily 'un-logical' (although some definitions of 'sentimental' do involve an opposition to reason, I will admit). There is, to my mind at least, relatively 'unstructured' music which was rarely sentimental (Wagner); and tightly structured music which sometimes tends to the sentimental (Brahms).

It is not a secret that Brahms was a highly sensitive young man, and that, as he grew older, he pined for the security of a domestic partnership that never came about. So we have an 'a priori' basis to look for some 'sentimentality' in his music.

And what do we find?































I am partial to the view of Brahms as someone who, although he explored the stormy heights in some pieces/movements, never did identify salvation in these heights but always came back 'down to earth' and expressed the redeeming power of the 'little world'.

This reminds me of the closing dialogue in Ingmar Bergman's masterpiece 'Fanny and Alexander':



> "We Ekdahls have not come into the world to see through it, never think that. We are not equipped for such excursions. We might just as well ignore the big things. [...] Suddenly, the storm howls and disaster is upon us [...] So it shall be. Therefore, let us be happy while we're happy, let's be kind, generous, affectionate, and good. Therefore it is necessary, and not in the least shameful, to take pleasure in the little world, good food, gentle smiles, fruit trees in bloom, Waltzes".


Touching, but surely not the musical philosophy of a Bach, Beethoven, Wagner, Bruckner or Sibelius....


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

I think sentimental is the wrong word because, in common usage, the word flirts with maudlin. I'd say Brahms tends toward a healthy and effusive warmth. Pity so many tightly wound and guarded souls can't allow themselves to respond in a normal human way to such sentiments.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Ok, let's be honest; these deserve some criticism:




(^the first piece in the video)












I'm just kidding


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## RogerWaters (Feb 13, 2017)

EdwardBast said:


> I think sentimental is the wrong word because, in common usage, the word flirts with maudlin. I'd say Brahms tends toward a healthy and effusive warmth. Pity so many tightly wound and guarded souls can't allow themselves to respond in a normal human way to such sentiments.


If maudlin means "self-pityingly or tearfully sentimental", and Google thinks is does, then it is not at all obviously wrong that Brahms sometimes tended towards the maudlin, too. Indeed, it will be a matter of taste/temperament.

"Healthy and effusive warmth", to me, is this:






Sentimentality (healthy or not) is, to me, plausibly some of this:






PS: I love them both.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

hammeredklavier said:


> Ok, let's be honest; these deserve some criticism:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why? They're beautiful


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Why? They're beautiful


He was "just kidding."


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Woodduck said:
> 
> 
> > Sentimentality aside, where do you find Brahms lacking in "logic"? I find his structures compellingly tight. It's one of the things I appreciate most about him.


Upon clicking this link, I was expecting to see the "Raisin Brahms" commercial, where Brahms invades into some family's property, destroy a wall of their house by pushing through it with his piano, just to say "Guten tag!" and provide some cereal to them . Completely logical.


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## Aries (Nov 29, 2012)

hammeredklavier said:


> I think it was Aries, who criticized Brahms about his use of staccatos/pizzicatos.


I probably criticized staccatos but not pizzicatos.

But I thought a bit about Brahms again, and I think something I don't like is that he very often comes up the a phrase then repeats it, comes up with another phrase, repeats it, comes up with another phrase, repeats it etc. Its so often unsteady and a bit unsettled. What I miss is that he goes deeper into something.

Does it has to do something with being overly sentimental? Probably not. His music is often a bit sentimental, but my critic is something different. Being sentimental is ok.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

No, Brahms is not oversentimental, he's a great composer. .






Johannes Brahms
Hungarian Dance No. 5 in G minor


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Rogerx said:


> No, Brahms is not oversentimental, he's a great composer. .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Quite tuneful!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

hammeredklavier said:


> *Ok, let's be honest*; these deserve some criticism:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'd be honest, but it would earn me an infraction


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

No, I like sentimentality and nostalgia in music, its why Ravel and Brahms are among my favorite composers. For me Brahms musical aesthetic wasn't immediately appealing, I found him a little on the 'tough to crack' side, but when it clicked his music became very rewarding. Sometimes I get into certain moods where Brahms is the only music I want to listen to.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

tdc said:


> No, I like sentimentality and nostalgia in music, its why Ravel and Brahms are among my favorite composers. For me Brahms musical aesthetic wasn't immediately appealing, I found him a little on the 'tough to crack' side, but when it clicked his music became very rewarding. Sometimes I get into certain moods where Brahms is the only music I want to listen to.


He does have a strong sense of melody, that's my favorite part about him. It's also what lead me to think it's quite sentimental, but I don't really see that negatively.


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## Bernamej (Feb 24, 2014)

I think the time has come for world war Brahms 2. 
You have to choose, you’re either with Hanslick who defends: Bach Mozart and Brahms or with the degenerates: Wagner and Liszt.
You absolutely have to pick a camp, and hate the other.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bernamej said:


> I think the time has come for world war Brahms 2.
> You have to choose, you're either with Hanslick who defends: Bach Mozart and Brahms or with the degenerates: Wagner and Liszt.
> You absolutely have to pick a camp, and hate the other.


Brahms admired Wagner.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Bernamej said:


> I think the time has come for world war Brahms 2.
> You have to choose, you're either with Hanslick who defends: Bach Mozart and Brahms or with the degenerates: Wagner and Liszt.
> You absolutely have to pick a camp, and hate the other.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

In my ears, heart and mind, Brahms is not a sentimental composer at all. Quite the contrary. Tchaikovsky even criticized Brahms for being way too academic.

In music many things happen in comparison to the musical surroundings. Sure there are composers more COOL than Brahms who was a romantic. Bach and Mozart sure are cool compared to Brahms. Whereas Beethoven or Schubert or Schumann or Liszt or Wagner or Tchaikovsky sure are not.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Waehnen said:


> In my ears, heart and mind, Brahms is not a sentimental composer at all. Quite the contrary. Tchaikovsky even criticized Brahms for being way too academic.
> 
> In music many things happen in comparison to the musical surroundings. Sure there are composers more COOL than Brahms who was a romantic. Bach and Mozart sure are cool compared to Brahms. Whereas Beethoven or Schubert or Schumann or Liszt or Wagner or Tchaikovsky sure are not.


I'm not sure about any objective measure of the cool factor of Mozart, but I do find him very cool.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

No........................................


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Bernamej said:


> I think the time has come for world war Brahms 2. You have to choose, you're either with Hanslick who defends: Bach Mozart and Brahms or with the degenerates: Wagner and Liszt. You absolutely have to pick a camp, and hate the other.


You sound like a person spending all his lifetime doing this:


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Bernamej said:


> I think the time has come for world war Brahms 2.
> You have to choose, you're either with Hanslick who defends: Bach Mozart and Brahms or with the degenerates: Wagner and Liszt.
> You absolutely have to pick a camp, and hate the other.


When you get down to it, you either prefer mud dwellers or beet root farmers.

And Cinnamon Toast Crunch vs Golden Brahms?


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

I think the Wagnerians were far more gushingly "sentimental" than Brahms ever was.


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## Aries (Nov 29, 2012)

dissident said:


> I think the Wagnerians were far more gushingly "sentimental" than Brahms ever was.


What does "sentimental" mean exactly?

For me it has somewhat a different connotation than just "emotional".

Something like this is for me pure sentimentality:



hammeredklavier said:


>


Music can be more emotional than this. But "sentimental" and "emotional" isn't the same thing imo. Sentimentality is a more tender feeling. So I actually think that "gushingly sentimental" is a oxymoron.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

Aries said:


> What does "sentimental" mean exactly?
> 
> For me it has somewhat a different connotation than just "emotional".
> 
> ...


One thing that it doesn't seem to say, to me anyway, is "behold my anguished, suffering artistic soul" in the manner of Mahler (who can, let's face it, be one of the most self-absorbed navel-gazing composers).


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## pjang23 (Oct 8, 2009)

He's famous for being the least sentimental of the Romantics. Strange choice by the OP.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Mahler and Brahms actually seem at a similar emotional level to me, quite restrained and sentimental. Rather it's their entire philosophy of _technical_ expression that seems very different. I agree that gushingly sentimental is an oxymoron. Good observation!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Ethereality said:


> Mahler and Brahms actually seem at a similar emotional level to me, quite restrained and sentimental. Rather it's their entire philosophy of _technical_ expression that seems very different. I agree that gushingly sentimental is an oxymoron. Good observation!


I have never before seen Mahler described as emotionally restrained. I can't think of a less restrained composer.


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

No .............................


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

The adjective Autumnal is often applied to the late works of Brahms. Autumnal is usually understood to refer to the approach of the season of Fall: the loss of leaves and the lush green of summer, cooler weather, shortening of days, and finally Winter, or death. Most people hear a sense of nostalgia, or loss, or a yearning for something past, in the late works of Brahms. 

This can be confused with sentimentality. However, if (and there is no way for us to know) Brahms was indeed motivated by this autumnal idea, and his mortality, it is a more complex set of emotions than mere sentiment.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> I have never before seen Mahler described as emotionally restrained. I can't think of a less restrained composer.


You've been hearing things wrong this entire time then. Mahler's compositional technique is very unrestrained, ie. the format expression takes, but underlying emotionally, it's mostly restrained and sentimental emotion like Brahms. What I mean is, Brahms' emotion might be less concentrated and more in the fabric itself, while Mahler has moments of melodrama, but their individual techniques of overall composition yield this experience similar.

If you can't think of a less emotionally restrained composer than Mahler or Brahms (the thought sounds foreign), try our best friend Beethoven, or try Shostakovich or Tchaikovsky.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

In reading some of the more recent posts I had not previously seen here, I believe what began as "overly sentimental" in the original question has shifted, in some members' replies, to the single term, sentimental. Some dictionary entries also seem to virtually lump together both terms, almost blurring any difference between them. This makes me want to clarify or add something from my brief, earlier response (#27) where I said: "overly sentimental? not that I can ever recall." To me, overly sentimental can imply too syrupy or sickly sweet---what some here have called maudlin. I do not hear that from Brahms. At times however I do admit to hearing wistful or nostalgic expressions---what I would also call sentimental. I often warmly embrace these expressions. The personal feelings I associate with them help solidify my love for a good deal of Brahms' music.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

It seems like most people in this thread take sentimental to mean something bad, or kitsch. In itself I don't think it is. The OP asks if Brahms music is _overly_ sentimental, which it is not.



SanAntone said:


> Most people hear a sense of nostalgia, or loss, or a yearning for something past, in the late works of Brahms.
> 
> This can be confused with sentimentality.


Its the same thing. Nostalgia is literally a synonym for sentimental.



pjang23 said:


> He's famous for being the least sentimental of the Romantics. Strange choice by the OP.


According to who? I think the only romantic composer who was as sentimental as Brahms in their music was Schumann.



Brahmsian Colors said:


> To me, overly sentimental can imply too syrupy or sickly sweet---what some here have called maudlin. I do not hear that from Brahms. At times however I do admit to hearing wistful or nostalgic expressions---what I would also call sentimental. I often warmly embrace these expressions. The personal feelings I associate with them help solidify my love for a good deal of Brahms' music.


Yup.


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## Aries (Nov 29, 2012)

"Sentimental" is related to "nostalgic". But "sentimental" isn't necessarily related to the past unlike "nostalgic". "Sentimental" has often a somewhat saddened aspect, an subliminal remorseful aspect and an raving/praising aspect, while "nostalgic" is more sober imo.



Rogerx said:


> No, Brahms is not oversentimental, he's a great composer. .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think how the flow of the music gets interrupted at 0:47, 1:07 etc. is overly sentimental actually. The whole piece has something sentimental, but to interrupt the flow like that is over the top imo.






This was the piece that made me interested in classical music initially. I heard it in a german TV spot, but the flow-breaking quiet inserts were actually cut out. The director probably felt the same way.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

tdc said:


> Nostalgia is literally a synonym for sentimental.


"Does it tear your heart out?"


tdc said:


> Yup.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

> Nostalgia is literally a synonym for sentimental.


I disagree.

Nostalgia has connotations which are different from sentimental, which is a more superficial word, IMO. They are related but not identical. Further, synonyms are useful for not repeating the same word, but are limited - they have different flavors, i.e. for someone who has a discriminating ear for language.


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## Bernamej (Feb 24, 2014)




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## Bernamej (Feb 24, 2014)

hammeredklavier said:


> You sound like a person spending all his lifetime doing this:


Hahaha good one !



Woodduck said:


> Brahms admired Wagner.


The critics critique and the composers compose.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

tdc said:


> Its the same thing. Nostalgia is literally a synonym for sentimental.


According to who?

Lexico: _nostalgia _- A sentimental longing or wistful affection for a period in the past.

_sentimental _- Of or prompted by feelings of tenderness, sadness, or nostalgia.

You can be sentimental without its being prompted by longing for the past.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

SanAntone said:


> I disagree.
> Nostalgia has connotations which are different from sentimental, which is a more superficial word, IMO. They are related but not identical. Further, synonyms are useful for not repeating the same word, but are limited - they have different flavors, i.e. for someone who has a discriminating ear for language.


Ok sure, but I think you are in an area of pure subjectivity here if you object to the use of the word sentimental to describe something, but suggest nostalgia is ok. Especially when referencing something abstract like music that can't be precisely described with words.



Forster said:


> According to who?
> Lexico: _nostalgia _- A sentimental longing or wistful affection for a period in the past.
> _sentimental _- Of or prompted by feelings of tenderness, sadness, or nostalgia.
> You can be sentimental without its being prompted by longing for the past.


See above. I don't see what difference it makes in regards to discussing music. Both words can be used to describe the same thing. Yes, the words can be used to describe subtly different things, the same thing can be said about a lot of individual words.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Brahms' Requiem - Denn alles fleisch es ist wie gras.

This is fore sure sentimental.


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## JackRance (Sep 13, 2021)

I agree with you. My brother didn't like him because he thought that there was too much logic...
(But now (fortunately) he likes him!)


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

tdc said:


> Ok sure, but I think you are in an area of pure subjectivity here if you object to the use of the word sentimental to describe something, but suggest nostalgia is ok. Especially when referencing something abstract like music that can't be precisely described with words.
> 
> See above. I don't see what difference it makes in regards to discussing music. Both words can be used to describe the same thing. Yes, the words can be used to describe subtly different things, the same thing can be said about a lot of individual words.


Nostalgia is specifically about the past. Sentiment isn't.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Schumann is a sentimental composer, maybe more openly so than Brahms, but only rarely nostalgic. He might be pining for Clara, for peace of mind, for whatever, but not for a past long gone. 
At least some Brahms seems to have nostalgia on a more than emotional level, namely by his frequent references to music of the past.
Regardless of the adaequacy of these respective characterisations, I think there is clearly a difference with nostalgia being a far more specific term.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

"There is a great childlike simplicity to this theme, it's of the nursery, but laced with nostalgia. It's like an adult looking back at his childhood."


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

tdc said:


> Ok sure, but I think you are in an area of pure subjectivity here if you object to the use of the word sentimental to describe something, but suggest nostalgia is ok. Especially when referencing something abstract like music that can't be precisely described with words.


Sentiment or sentimentality often relies on false emotions, i.e. using manipulative means to cause a nostalgic emotional reaction in an audience. Greeting cards are an example.

Whereas nostalgia, I believe, is a psychological experience which causes the true emotion of sense of loss or a yearning to recapture a time, or innocence, or simply remembering a person, or event, that was actually experienced and which has a lingering emotional impact.

I don't think Brahms is ever trying to manipulate me but I do get the sense of loss or nostalgia, maybe for the loss of quality of the life at the end of the 19th century.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

hammeredklavier said:


> "There is a great childlike simplicity to this theme, it's of the nursery, but laced with nostalgia. It's like an adult looking back at his childhood."


You'll know more about this than I do, but I wonder if all of that is a load of claptrap born of performances which play it too slowly. Here's Zacharias's first interpretation on record, I can't say if he's a reliable guide, I'm hoping you can, but I don't hear any nostalgia or Rosebud moments.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Ethereality said:


> Mahler and Brahms actually seem at a similar emotional level to me, quite restrained and sentimental. Rather it's their entire philosophy of _technical_ expression that seems very different. I agree that gushingly sentimental is an oxymoron. Good observation!


Mahler admired Brahms, but called Brahms "a mannequin with a somewhat narrow heart". I don't know or care how Brahms really felt when he wrote his music, but I don't connect to the much of the 'emotion' I feel is being expressed at least in performance, and it does sound contrived to me.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

hammeredklavier said:


> "There is a great childlike simplicity to this theme, it's of the nursery, but laced with nostalgia. It's like an adult looking back at his childhood."


That's reading waaaaaaay too much into things, to the point of being "fanciful".


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Kreisler jr said:


> Schumann is a sentimental composer, maybe more openly so than Brahms, but only rarely nostalgic. He might be pining for Clara, for peace of mind, for whatever, but not for a past long gone.
> At least some Brahms seems to have nostalgia on a more than emotional level, namely by his frequent references to music of the past.
> Regardless of the adaequacy of these respective characterisations, I think there is clearly a difference with nostalgia being a far more specific term.





Forster said:


> Nostalgia is specifically about the past. Sentiment isn't.





SanAntone said:


> Sentiment or sentimentality often relies on false emotions, i.e. using manipulative means to cause a nostalgic emotional reaction in an audience. Greeting cards are an example.
> 
> Whereas nostalgia, I believe, is a psychological experience which causes the true emotion of sense of loss or a yearning to recapture a time, or innocence, or simply remembering a person, or event, that was actually experienced and which has a lingering emotional impact.
> 
> I don't think Brahms is ever trying to manipulate me but I do get the sense of loss or nostalgia, maybe for the loss of quality of the life at the end of the 19th century.


But the fact is the two words can be used to refer to exactly the same thing. The word sentimentality can be referring to nostalgia, just nostalgia and nothing more.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

tdc said:


> But the fact is the two words can be used to refer to exactly the same thing. The word sentimentality can be referring to nostalgia, just nostalgia and nothing more.


Using the word "nostalgia" would be more accurate and the better choice. And you would avoid the confusion that using sentimentality (with its extra baggage) most likely would cause.

What is your specific concern over the term sentimental or sentimentality that you are arguing so strongly that there is no difference between it and the word nostalgia?

Several of us have pointed out the differences.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Phil loves classical said:


> Mahler admired Brahms, but called Brahms "a mannequin with a somewhat narrow heart". I don't know or care how Brahms really felt when he wrote his music, but I don't connect to the much of the 'emotion' I feel is being expressed at least in performance, and it does sound contrived to me.


There's also this cute anecdote:
"Then, a year or two later, during the last summer of Brahms's life, Mahler's prospects of going to Vienna as Director of the Vienna Court Opera began to increase. But he still needed Brahms's support, so he visited the great man at Bad Ischl in Austria. As the two of them walked along the Traunsee, Brahms lamented the state of modern music and said that as far as he was concerned music was now dead. They crossed a bridge and Mahler took Brahms's arm, pointing into the flowing stream below. "Look, Herr Doktor, look," he said wryly. "There goes the last wave!" Later, he sent Brahms the score of his Resurrection Symphony, prompting Brahms to dub Mahler "The King of the Revolutionaries." Finally, with the generous support of Brahms on his death bed, Mahler won the director's position at the Opera House in Vienna, thus beginning the most exciting decade in the history of the Vienna Opera."


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

SanAntone said:


> Using the word "nostalgia" would be more accurate and the better choice. And you would avoid the confusion that using sentimentality (with its extra baggage) most likely would cause.
> 
> What is your specific concern over the term sentimental or sentimentality that you are arguing so strongly that there is no difference between it and the word nostalgia?
> 
> Several of us have pointed out the differences.


I'm not arguing strongly, I'm just pointing out a fact. You disagreed with the use of a word in the OP, I have shown you that a person can choose to use the word 'sentimental' to mean _exactly_ the same thing as 'nostalgia', and it is technically not incorrect to do so.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

hammeredklavier said:


> There's also this cute anecdote:
> "Then, a year or two later, during the last summer of Brahms's life, Mahler's prospects of going to Vienna as Director of the Vienna Court Opera began to increase. But he still needed Brahms's support, so he visited the great man at Bad Ischl in Austria. As the two of them walked along the Traunsee, Brahms lamented the state of modern music and said that as far as he was concerned music was now dead. They crossed a bridge and Mahler took Brahms's arm, pointing into the flowing stream below. "Look, Herr Doktor, look," he said wryly. "There goes the last wave!" Later, he sent Brahms the score of his Resurrection Symphony, prompting Brahms to dub Mahler "The King of the Revolutionaries." Finally, with the generous support of Brahms on his death bed, Mahler won the director's position at the Opera House in Vienna, thus beginning the most exciting decade in the history of the Vienna Opera."


There was once a wonderful spoof on BBC Radio 3 where they made out that, after that meeting, Brahms had decided to embrace the new music and wrote a concerto for washboard -- but died before it could be finished. Manuscripts have now been found . . .


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Mandryka said:


> There was once a wonderful spoof on BBC Radio 3 where they made out that, after that meeting, Brahms had decided to embrace the new music and wrote a concerto for washboard -- but died before it could be finished. Manuscripts have now been found . . .


It seems that a lot of things have been discovered about him in the recent times;

Brahms cleared of serial cat slaying
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/apr/12/highereducation.arts


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

tdc said:


> I'm not arguing strongly, I'm just pointing out a fact. You disagreed with the use of a word in the OP, I have shown you that a person can choose to use the word 'sentimental' to mean _exactly_ the same thing as 'nostalgia', and it is technically not incorrect to do so.


Maybe you would use the word that way but it is not "a fact" that the two words are identical. It is a sloppy way to gloss over the nuances of related but different words and their multi-layers of connotations and meanings.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Definition of *sentimental*
1a: marked or governed by feeling, sensibility, or emotional idealism
b: resulting from feeling rather than reason or thought
a sentimental attachment
a sentimental favorite
2: having an excess of sentiment or sensibility

Full Definition of *nostalgia*
1: the state of being homesick : HOMESICKNESS
2: a wistful or excessively sentimental yearning for return to or of some past period or irrecoverable condition
also : something that evokes nostalgia

As you can see nostalgia has a specific connotation of homesickness or a yearning for return to something past. Sentimental is more general and not as specific.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

SanAntone said:


> Maybe you would use the word that way but it is not "a fact" that the two words are identical. It is a sloppy way to gloss over the nuances of related but different words and their multi-layers of connotations and meanings.


I never said the two words were identical. I'm saying a person has a choice to use either word to describe 'nostalgia'. That is what I meant by saying 'the same thing'. I didn't mean every aspect of the words were exactly the same.

Here is the definition of 'sentimental' Forster used earlier in the thread:

*Sentimental* - Of or prompted by feelings of tenderness, sadness, or nostalgia.

That means sentimental can refer to feelings of tenderness, sadness OR nostalgia. Using the word doesn't have to imply any extra baggage. A person can use it only in relation to nostalgia.

One can say they prefer this or that word, but what I am saying is correct and I find it odd so many people agree with you. What I am saying is 100% true and what you are saying is in my view completely valid for you but closer to pedantry and hair splitting if you are trying to force it on others.

At the bottom of this is something else, I'm trying to put my finger on. That maybe somehow it is vulgar or kitsch or manipulative to _feel_ things, but somehow it is more respectful or professional if something is more intellectual and detached.

Do you think I'm disrespecting Brahms music or unfairly or inaccurately representing it by suggesting in his music he displays an emotional attachment to the past? Do you think it is more accurate or respectable somehow to suggest this feeling is only intellectual, and Brahms is actually more almost robotic, or cool in his feelings and that in his music there is little to no actual sentiment he feels towards the past?


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Why are sentiment and logic being treated as mutually exclusive? One deals with motivation and the other with process. It seems to me that one can possess both in abundance or completely lack in both. Each quality exists independent of the other.

Brahms is IMO an essentially sentimental composer who expressed himself logically.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

tdc said:


> I never said the two words were identical.


Well, no, not in those exact words. But you did say: "Nostalgia is literally a synonym for sentimental". And it isn't.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Forster said:


> Well, no, not in those exact words. But you did say: "Nostalgia is literally a synonym for sentimental". And it isn't.


The word 'literally' in that sentence was used to emphasize the fact that the two words are in fact synonyms (and they are), not that they are literally the same.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

tdc said:


> I never said the two words were identical. I'm saying a person has a choice to use either word to describe 'nostalgia'. That is what I meant by saying 'the same thing'. I didn't mean every aspect of the words were exactly the same.


This is what you wrote:



> I have shown you that a person can choose to *use the word 'sentimental' to mean exactly the same thing as 'nostalgia'*, and it is technically not incorrect to do so.


You did say that the two words have exactly the same meaning - which they don't, and it is technically incorrect to do so.



> Do you think I'm disrespecting Brahms music or unfairly or inaccurately representing it by suggesting in his music he displays an emotional attachment to the past? Do you think it is more accurate or respectable somehow to suggest this feeling is only intellectual, and Brahms is actually more almost robotic, or cool in his feelings and that in his music there is little to no actual sentiment he feels towards the past?


No. But, I don't think it is helpful or accurate to describe the music of Brahms with any of these adjectives as if this is what Brahms was trying to evoke. That we can never know. The most a person can do is say that _for him_, the music of Brahms is ....


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

SanAntone said:


> You did say that the two words have exactly the same meaning - which they don't, and it is technically incorrect to do so.


You keep putting words in my mouth. If you stick to what I actually said this pedantry can end. What I've clarified repeatedly is that those two words _can_ mean exactly the same thing. Its very simple. I'm done explaining this.

You use your word I will use mine, and I will sleep well at night knowing I am 100% correct in my usage of the word, and I will keep using that word as often as I want to refer to nostalgia. I love having the freedom to do that and to know that I am right!


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

tdc said:


> You keep putting words in my mouth. If you stick to what I actually said this pedantry can end. What I've clarified repeatedly is that those two words _can_ mean exactly the same thing. Its very simple. I'm done explaining this.
> 
> You use your word I will use mine, and I will sleep well at night knowing I am 100% correct in my usage of the word, and I will keep using that word as often as I want to refer to nostalgia. I love having the freedom to do that and to know that I am right!


I am not putting any words in your mouth. I am quoting you exactly. Yes, someone can use the word "sentimental" to mean "nostalgic" but it would be a clumsy and imprecise thing to do.

I made my living for 30 years writing song lyrics and finding just the right word for a line. So, maybe I have spent more time savoring the nuances of different words and focusing on those slight variations of meaning in order to choose just the right word for what I am trying to convey.

That's not being pedantic; that's being sensitive to language and how there can be magic in words, when they are used precisely.

But don't let me stop you from throwing words around like beach balls.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

SanAntone said:


> I am not putting any words in your mouth. I am quoting you exactly. Yes, someone can use the word "sentimental" to mean "nostalgic" but it would be a clumsy and imprecise thing to do.
> 
> I made my living for 30 years writing song lyrics and finding just the right word for a line. So, maybe I have spent more time savoring the nuances of different words and focusing on those slight variations of meaning in order to choose just the right word for what I am trying to convey.
> 
> ...


Well in this case, I don't agree that you found a better word, but I don't think you used a poor one either. I think maybe you did find one that resonates better with the socio-political climate of our age. On the other hand it could seem like you are avoiding sentimental because you think it makes Brahms seem too emotional. Sentimental could come across as 'unscientific'. In our society perhaps he is better represented as having no feelings, or sentiments, just cold and calculated thoughts, like a sociopathic Brahms.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

tdc said:


> Well in this case, I don't agree that you found a better word, but I don't think you used a poor one either. I think maybe you did find one that resonates better with the socio-political climate of our age. On the other hand it could seem like you are avoiding sentimental because you think it makes Brahms seem too emotional. Sentimental could come across as 'unscientific'. In our society perhaps he is better represented as having no feelings, or sentiments, just cold and calculated thoughts, like a sociopathic Brahms.


I would avoid "sentimental" because it is a less specific word than "nostalgic," as well as having connotations which I do not think apply to Brahms's music. Your alleged "socio-political climate of our age" is irrelevant and does not enter into my thinking.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

SanAntone said:


> I would avoid "sentimental" because it is a less specific word than "nostalgic," as well as having connotations which I do not think apply to Brahms's music. Your alleged "socio-political climate of our age" is irrelevant and does not enter into my thinking.


It may enter into your thinking in an unconscious way. Earlier you differentiated between the two by specifying that nostalgia is a 'psychological phenomena', where sentimentality you associated with manipulation. This seems to suggest your preference for the mental over emotion in describing Brahms music, but Brahms music has both. The mind and emotions can work together ideally. People can be manipulated into a feeling of nostalgia in the same way they can be manipulated through sentimentality, through a greeting card or whatever. People use their minds to manipulate people. Music can be used to evoke a feeling of nostalgia, some would say that in itself is a form of manipulation. I think some of these differences you see between the terms don't really exist, but are ideas you have placed on them.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

tdc said:


> I think some of these differences you see between the terms don't really exist, but are ideas you have placed on them.


You would be wrong. I can only assume you did not read the definitions I posted from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

SanAntone said:


> You would be wrong. I can only assume you did not read the definitions I posted from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary.


You mean this:



SanAntone said:


> Definition of *sentimental*
> 1a: marked or governed by feeling, sensibility, or emotional idealism
> b: resulting from feeling rather than reason or thought
> a sentimental attachment
> ...


These definitions where there is no mention anywhere of the word manipulation? And where the words "excessively sentimental" are used as one of the definitions of nostalgia? Yes I read them.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

JOHANNES BRAHMS (1833 - 1897)
Ein deutsches Requiem, Op 45

Lovely sentimental .


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

...........................................


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

tdc said:


> These definitions where there is no mention anywhere of the word manipulation? And where the words "excessively sentimental" are used as one of the definitions of nostalgia? Yes I read them.


Nostalgia is a _specific_ kind of sentiment: a wistful ,yearning for return; homesickness. Similar to all kittens are cats but not all cats are kittens. Yes, someone could refer to kittens as cats and they would technically be correct, but not as precise as using the right word and their message would be confusing if someone assumed they were describing an adult feline.

It was my editorializing that brought in the manipulative aspect, since I detect that when cheap sentimentality is employed by greeting card advertisements and some movies, television shows, etc.

But I get the feeling you'd rather argue than understand my point; so you can have the last word.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

tdc said:


> Music can be used to evoke a feeling of nostalgia, some would say that in itself is a form of manipulation. I think some of these differences you see between the terms don't really exist, but are ideas you have placed on them.


Are there any examples of music you think are nostalgic, but not sentimental?


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

if one really wanted to be with the spirit of the times, i wonder if one could consider Brahms to be hauntological


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## VoiceFromTheEther (Aug 6, 2021)

hammeredklavier said:


> Are there any examples of music you think are nostalgic, but not sentimental?


_Hatikvah _(more than _Ma Vlast_) and maybe Wagner's _Pilgrim Chorus_...


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

hammeredklavier said:


> Are there any examples of music you think are nostalgic, but not sentimental?


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> Are there any examples of music you think are nostalgic, but not sentimental?


Yes, Brahms' late chamber music. :lol:


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## RogerWaters (Feb 13, 2017)

SanAntone said:


> Nostalgia is a _specific_ kind of sentiment: a wistful ,yearning for return; homesickness.


Ok, but this would render false, IMO, the claim that Brahms' music may legitimately only be described as 'nostalgic' but not 'sentimental'.

I doubt that the emotional _sentiment_ Brahms infused into his music is always and necessarily a pining for _something lost_. For something to be lost, you had to have it at some point. I doubt every single emotional theme Brahms wrote is about Clara Schumann, for instance. Surely there is also a yearning there for something that _never was_: be this personal, about mankind, life in the late 19th-century, spiritual; whatever.

I don't know, if you aren't biased by negative connotations towards the concept of 'sentimental', how you could say Brahms' music isn't sentimental. Responding to the OP, I don't usually think Brahms was _too sentimental_. He is one of the greats, and one part of what makes his music great is its sentimentality - his concern for the 'little world' of human feeling in spite of the raging heavens which may or may not have any meaning, not that we could grasp it if it did. But now I'm getting subjective.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

I personally don't think Brahms is nostalgic or sentimental. To me, his music puts everything into perspective.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Is there any more emotionally sincere music than that of Brahms? I don’t know any. If Brahms is sentimental then I’m all for it.


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## pjang23 (Oct 8, 2009)

RogerWaters said:


> Ok, but this would render false, IMO, the claim that Brahms' music may legitimately only be described as 'nostalgic' but not 'sentimental'.
> 
> I doubt that the emotional _sentiment_ Brahms infused into his music is always and necessarily a pining for _something lost_. For something to be lost, you had to have it at some point. I doubt every single emotional theme Brahms wrote is about Clara Schumann, for instance. *Surely there is also a yearning there for something that never was: be this personal, about mankind, life in the late 19th-century, spiritual; whatever.*
> 
> I don't know, if you aren't biased by negative connotations towards the concept of 'sentimental', how you could say Brahms' music isn't sentimental. Responding to the OP, I don't usually think Brahms was _too sentimental_. He is one of the greats, and one part of what makes his music great is its sentimentality - his concern for the 'little world' of human feeling in spite of the raging heavens which may or may not have any meaning, not that we could grasp it if it did. But now I'm getting subjective.


"Sehnsucht" is the term you're looking for.

Most of this thread just amounts to connotation vs denotation of the word "sentimental".


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## Bruckner Anton (Mar 10, 2016)

Well, interestingly enough, Tchaikovsky criticized Brahms as "mathematician of sound" and found his work "cold".


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## FrankinUsa (Aug 3, 2021)

I don’t understand the need for the ongoing discussion between sentimentality and nostalgia although I respect the discussion concerning the similarities and/or differences. I truly don’t want to criticize those who got involved in that discussion but it gave a feeling of what happens occasionally on TC;the “rams butting heads” syndrome where there is an ongoing back and forth over something that is relatively minor. I’ve seen worse. And I certainly came away from this with a greater knowledge of the differences/similarities lbetween sentimentality and nostalgia. So it was a great vocabulary lesson and when I will need to use either words I will remember the nuanced difference between. 
Going back to the OP,what struck me was the use of the phrase”overly sentimental.” Using that full phrase makes it easier for me to say that Brahms was NOT overly sentimental. Not at all. Brahms was a composer of a time that we call the “Romantic Era” and his music reflects the thoughts/philosophies of his time. I feel that Brahms truly belongs to the”Romantic Era” as that period is defined historically. It is NOT Romantic as in romantic love,attraction,Valentines Day sort of stuff. And I find Brahms to be one of the more restrained composer of what we call the “Romantic Era” of Classical Music.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Johannes Brahms - Lullaby

This is a bit over romantic.


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## FrankinUsa (Aug 3, 2021)

Rogerx said:


> Johannes Brahms - Lullaby
> 
> This is a bit over romantic.


I agree with you. But I'm not sure/don't think this is representative of the entire oeuvre of Brahms.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

FrankinUsa said:


> I agree with you. But I'm not sure/don't think this is representative of the entire oeuvre of Brahms.


It might help to listen to the original version.


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## FrankinUsa (Aug 3, 2021)

Botschaft said:


> It might help to listen to the original version.


Interesting comparison. Much more succinct and less syrup-y than the other example. 
I guess this(various interpretations) makes our discussions that more interesting.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Benjamin Appl; "Mein Mädel hat einen Rosenmund"; Johannes Brahms

Diction is almost perfect.


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## FrankinUsa (Aug 3, 2021)

Ok. Brahms is sweet and syrupy


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

FrankinUsa said:


> Ok. Brahms is sweet and syrupy


But does OP would agree you think?


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

pjang23 said:


> ... Most of this thread just amounts to connotation vs denotation of the word "sentimental".


Best Post of the thread.

"Is this the right room for an argument?" 
"I told you once". 
"No you didn't!" 
Yes I did!"


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## FrankinUsa (Aug 3, 2021)

Btw,was most impressed with the quality of singing. So I bought 3 CD’s. Thank you.

There was a post that had a video of Benjamin Appl. Thank you to that poster.

Thank you to Rogerx


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Baritone Benjamin Appl opened Germany's festive season with a starring role in Dresden's annual ZDF Adventkonzert. The German singer performed together with Diana Damrau and Christian Thielemann at the Frauenkirche, with other stars including Tuuli Takala, Helmut Fuchs and the State Chorus Opera Dresden. Appl performed two arias in Mendelssohns cantata Vom Himmel hoch, the duet of Adam and Eve and the last hymn from Haydn's The Creation.

The annual concert, now a beloved tradition which marks the beginning of the Advent season in Germany, was broadcast December on German national TV

He had a concert earlier this month


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Johannes Brahms - The Complete Songs, Vol. 7 - Benjamin Appl (baritone), Graham Johnson (piano)


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## 4chamberedklavier (12 mo ago)

In general, no. But there are pieces (particularly the clarinet pieces & the piano/violin sonatas) of his that give off a somewhat sentimental, slightly cheesy vibe. I don't think sentimentality is a bad thing however.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Brahms is sometimes too intense for me (depending on my mood) but never "illogical." I don't know enough to judge him in that sense anyway.


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