# Haydn - symphonies 53 and 69



## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Hello all,

Was just wondering - these two Haydn symphonies, especially No. 69, seem to get a lot of 'bad criticism' from musicologists - especially in light of Haydn's Sturm und Drang symphonies. However, I must disagree - I don't see how these are worse - actually, I find 53's 1st movement to be very intricate formally and enjoy the orchestral touches that Haydn adds. I found the rest of the symphony to be very enjoyable as well. As to 69 - once again, the first movement has a very catchy melody and brims with energy, don't see what could be 'wrong' with it. The finale has some interesting touches as well and is very lively. 

Any thoughts on these two symphonies?


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

No opinions on these puppies? Oh well, I'll just enjoy them myself .


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## DebussyDoesDallas (Jan 11, 2014)

I wasn't aware these got slagged. Being nicknamed, they're among the more acclaimed, I thought.

Indeed, the 1st movement of 53 is one of my favorites. The themes are brilliant and inspired, and the whole arrangement flows and hangs together beautifully, though I suppose I could live without the fanfare intro so we can cut right to the tunes. The other mvts are solid but don't stick in my mind at the moment.

69, I need to check back on, it's been a long time and it didn't grab me as much then.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

DebussyDoesDallas said:


> I wasn't aware these got slagged. Being nicknamed, they're among the more acclaimed, I thought.
> 
> Indeed, the 1st movement of 53 is one of my favorites. The themes are brilliant and inspired, and the whole arrangement flows and hangs together beautifully, though I suppose I could live without the fanfare intro so we can cut right to the tunes. The other mvts are solid but don't stick in my mind at the moment.
> 
> 69, I need to check back on, it's been a long time and it didn't grab me as much then.


Well, not slagged, but I've read some unfavourable reviews of both. I fully agree with you, No. 53's first movement is an excellent example of Haydn's mastery - combining wonderful, accessible melodies into complex structures and incorporating experimentation (for eg. the extended development section). The finale is also very good, I find. Same with the finale of symphony No. 69 - fast, lively, and expressive in the middle with a fugal passage in the minor. The tone becomes triumphant again at the end, of course .


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## Funny (Nov 30, 2013)

I like 53 mostly for the four bars (37-41) where Haydn essentially invents the Elmer Bernstein style, with that 3-3-3-3-4 syncopation in slashing tutti strings that sounds ready for The Magnificent Seven. I also was not aware anyone was speaking ill of this symphony. They should stop.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

You mean in the first movement? And also - The Magnificent Seven?


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

The reason is probably that the last movement of 53 is imported from elsewhere, while 69 is named "Laudon" simply because the publisher (I think Artaria) thought it would get more money so named and Haydn agreed. This is a somewhat cynical view, however when you look at the criticism of these works, such as in Landon, these facts are commonly cited, as if appearing from nowhere. In fairness though, these are almost certainly justifications the writers use to back up their own opinions.

69 I have to admit I find a fairly mediocre symphony, however 53 is one of my favourites: it's first movement contains some really powerful moments and is wrought together quite well, the slow movement is one of the best tunes Haydn ever wrote and the finale really has great momentum to it.


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## kangxi (Jan 24, 2014)

Just listened to them both - I agree that 53 is more dramatic than 69 but it is in the minor key. There is excellent music in both symphonies. I rather like the tootling woodwinds & brass in 69/4. I can't think why anyone would disparage eiether.


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## kangxi (Jan 24, 2014)

Whoops, belay that last. Some idiot (me) filed 2 symphonies in one folder & left another empty. The tootling woods & brass belong to 68. 68 & 69 are both fine. I like the short buildup to the finish of 69.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Ramako said:


> The reason is probably that the last movement of 53 is imported from elsewhere, while 69 is named "Laudon" simply because the publisher (I think Artaria) thought it would get more money so named and Haydn agreed. This is a somewhat cynical view, however when you look at the criticism of these works, such as in Landon, these facts are commonly cited, as if appearing from nowhere. In fairness though, these are almost certainly justifications the writers use to back up their own opinions.
> 
> 69 I have to admit I find a fairly mediocre symphony, however 53 is one of my favourites: it's first movement contains some really powerful moments and is wrought together quite well, the slow movement is one of the best tunes Haydn ever wrote and the finale really has great momentum to it.


Ramako - check out no. 69 by Harnoncourt, it may change your mind about it . Also, I don't see how the symphony's nickname has anything to do with its quality. These musicologists should sit down themselves and write symphonies like this, maybe then they could judge better, hehe.


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## Bill H. (Dec 23, 2010)

One issue with #53 is that there are *several* movements that have been used as finales for the work. Of the ones I've heard, my preference is that which Dorati chose to use with the symphony as it was issued on LP. However, in the appendices to his complete set of the Symphonies there's about three alternative finale movements, one of which I remember as being used by S. Kuijken with La Petite Bande in his recording of the work.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Bill H. said:


> One issue with #53 is that there are *several* movements that have been used as finales for the work. Of the ones I've heard, my preference is that which Dorati chose to use with the symphony as it was issued on LP. However, in the appendices to his complete set of the Symphonies there's about three alternative finale movements, one of which I remember as being used by S. Kuijken with La Petite Bande in his recording of the work.


Yes, that's true - I've even read that the authorship of the Capriccio finale is disputed - I wonder what information they base this on. Sounds pretty Haydnesque to me anyway, hehe. A fast, upbeat and joyous Finale, Haydn wrote many excellent examples of these.


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## Funny (Nov 30, 2013)

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> You mean in the first movement? And also - The Magnificent Seven?


Sure. Listen to bars 37-41 in the 1st movement. The muscular 3-3-3-3-4 syncopation of jagged strings is exactly that used by Bernstein in The Magnificent Seven (and elsewhere). I can find no other example from this era that comes close to that effect (can you?). Dvorak's 9th Symphony is an obvious late-19th-century example, and probably a more likely direct influence on Bernstein (including the crucial slow-moving melody floating over top, missing in the Haydn), but it's remarkable that Haydn threw in this dramatic effect back in 1777.


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## Roi N (Oct 22, 2013)

Ramako said:


> 69 I have to admit I find a fairly mediocre symphony,


I wouldn't say that. It is often overlooked (along with many of the 61-75 symphonies) because it is short. But this does not diminish its value. It has the storming Haydn-development that we all love, as well as a nice main theme. I like it.


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