# Examples of "classical" composers stealing from each other



## Dimitri

Hi everyone! I'm a newcomer here, and I'm curious to find some examples of "classical" composers (_not_ film) stealing from other composers. I frequently hear people mention in passing how composers have stolen from each other for centuries, but the only examples I am familiar with are self-plagarisms and the use of folk-songs, which I am less interested in.

Thanks in advance! And if it's not too much trouble, timestamps with YouTube videos would be greatly appreciated.


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## Op.123

Hmmm... I am not sure about stealing, maybe just a strong influence.


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## starry

'Stealing' is rather a pejorative word, borrowing is surely better.






Mozart took a theme from JC Bach, from the start of the movement. Bach had recently died before this composition so it's generally considered a tribute to him. Mozart chose well and put together a nice affecting arrangement making the music even more moving. Very direct and expressive, the whole mood of the movement feels based around it. I think Mozart improved it considerably with his own personal meditation or improvisation on the theme.

Away from this you could actually say any number of variations based on someone else's theme are borrowing, but obviously they include plenty of invention in their new use as well.


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## Nereffid

Using other people's music to create new compositions was standard practice in the 15th and 16th centuries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_mass


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## Eschbeg

Like many other Baroque composers, Handel stole music constantly. And "stole" is definitely the right word; music historians have shown that what we now like to think of more delicately as "borrowing" was definitely viewed as "stealing" when it was practiced in the manner that was routine for Baroque composers.


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## Cheyenne

Eschbeg said:


> Like many other Baroque composers, Handel stole music constantly. And "stole" is definitely the right word; music historians have shown that what we now like to think of more delicately as "borrowing" was definitely viewed as "stealing" when it was practiced in the manner that was routine for Baroque composers.


Do you happen to have any examples or texts on it? (Not that I distrust you, or anything - curiosity.)


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## Eschbeg

If you've got access to a research library, the best place to look is the otherwise-very-difficult-to-find _Handel Sources: Materials for the Study of Handel's Borrowings_, edited by John H. Roberts.

If I get a chance later today, I'll try to post some YouTube audio examples.


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## Taggart

starry said:


> 'Stealing' is rather a pejorative word, borrowing is surely better.


"Lesser artists borrow, great artists steal." -Igor Stravinsky


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## Nereffid

I can't find the quote on Google, but I have a memory of a line from Gore Vidal's _Myra Breckinridge_:

"Plagiarism is creativity by other means."


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## apricissimus

I'm not familiar with the music, but I read about this recently:



> Questions of musical plagiarism were leveled at Golijov after Tom Manoff, a composer and critic, and Brian McWhorter, a trumpeter, alleged that Sidereus consists mainly of music from the Michael Ward-Bergeman composition Barbeich. Alex Ross of The New Yorker reviewed both scores and wrote, "To put it bluntly, 'Sidereus' is 'Barbeich' with additional material attached," yet Ross adds that Ward-Bergeman was aware of Golijov's borrowings. [23] A consortium of thirty-five orchestras paid Golijov $75,000 to write a 20-minute work; a fee supplemented by a $50,000 grant approved by the then board of the League of American Orchestras.[24] The final work that Golijov produced and gave to the consortium of orchestras is a 9-minute work. Golijov also used that same musical material in his 2009 composition Radio. Golijov responded to these questions by explaining that he composed the original musical material jointly with Ward-Bergeman, and used it with permission. He also cited Claudio Monteverdi, Franz Schubert and Gustav Mahler as other composers who have shared existing musical material to create new music.[25]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osvaldo_Golijov


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## Kieran

Taggart said:


> "Lesser artists borrow, great artists steal." -Igor Stravinsky


Surely he borrowed this from Picasso?


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## starry

Taggart said:


> "Lesser artists borrow, great artists steal." -Igor Stravinsky


I think it's the other way round. Those who just lift wholesale, without using it to spark their own creativity, aren't that great.


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## Stargazer

How's this?

Beethoven: 



Mahler: 




Completely different after the beginning, but the openings are pretty much identical!


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## Mahlerian

Stargazer said:


> How's this?
> 
> Beethoven:
> 
> 
> 
> Mahler:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Completely different after the beginning, but the openings are pretty much identical!


There's actually a well-known hymn tune the Mahler reminds me of as well. The Beethoven less so.


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## Andreas

Stargazer said:


> How's this?
> 
> Beethoven:
> 
> 
> 
> Mahler:


Or this, even more striking:

Beethoven 4: 



Mahler 1:


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## Novelette

Fantini's Toccata & Sonata Imperiale is a good example of very early Baroque borrowings.

The Toccata is exactly Monteverdi's Toccata from L'Orfeo. The Sonata Imperiale is very, very similar: using the same brass ensemble, using the exact same musical texture, although the melody [or at least, the uppermost harmony] is different.


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## TrevBus

Composers are often friends w/others and that friendship can lead to "influence" or 'homage". One example is the great friendship between Copland and the Mexcian composer Chavez. Chavez was very influenced by Copland and Copland was known to "help" his close friend w/some of his symphonies. Not very unusual, IMO.


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## Eschbeg

Andreas said:


> Or this, even more striking:
> 
> Beethoven 4:
> 
> 
> 
> Mahler 1:


Whether it's "stealing" or simply an homage is of course debatable (I'm inclined toward the latter), but the resemblance between the intros to Mahler 1 and Beethoven 9 are even more striking still, in my opinion, not only for being in the same key but also for the unexpected move to B-flat.


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## Eschbeg

Here's a fun one: the second movement of Poulenc's Concerto for Two Pianos and the famous "Elvira Madigan" movement from Mozart's Piano Concerto No. 21.

Compare 1:02...





...with 1:44


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## nightscape

Dvorak's 3rd movement of his 9th Symphony is a clear homage to the 2nd movement of Beethoven's 9th. Again, not exactly theft, more of a tip of the cap.


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## KenOC

There's another form of "theft" that was popular in old Vienna. A composer would write an opera that had a tune or two that became quite popular. So another composer would dash off a set of variations on that tune. Maybe not real "theft," but the second composer knew that publishers would buy the variations because they could sell a lot of sheet music. And the original composer of the tune, of course, got nothing. Seems like this was considered quite OK.

Sometimes these were even incorporated into larger works. A good example is Beethoven's variations on a tune by Weigl in the last movement of his Clarinet Trio. The variations were written in the same year that Weigl's opera came out and earned the trio the nickname "gassenhaur." The word "gassenhaur" is connected with the idea that the tune was sung in the streets ("gasse") and has the meaning in music of "hit song."


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## PetrB

Nereffid said:


> I can't find the quote on Google, but I have a memory of a line from Gore Vidal's _Myra Breckinridge_:
> 
> "Plagiarism is creativity by other means."


From an author known as one of the most sharp-barbed satirists of his era, and a book which is plainly a hyper satire / lampoon of the highest water, out of context, I have no recall which way that quote is meant to be taken


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## PetrB

J.S. Bach:

The air on the G-string is some other composer's tune.
The concerto for three harpsichords (I think that is it) is a re-working of one or more of Vivaldi's fiddle concerto.

The list is extensive: Bach lifted a number of things by Vivaldi, Vivaldi being often the subject of Bach's admiration and fascination... 

Of course, here's the key thing. Materials aside, by the time Bach was done with them, they sounded like Bach


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## Dimitri

Thanks everybody! The examples have been fascinating so far--keep 'em coming! 



starry said:


> I think it's the other way round. Those who just lift wholesale, without using it to spark their own creativity, aren't that great.


That's what I thought too, until recently. I think Stravinsky was going for a sort of pun there--when you steal something, it becomes your own, but when you borrow it, it still belongs to its original owner. So he's saying that when you rip something from someone else, make it your own.


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## Adeodatus100

Kieran said:


> Surely he borrowed this from Picasso?


No, he stole it.

And I think he's right. There's something brazen and bold about _stealing_, compared to the "I'm-not-sure-I-should-be-doing-this", slightly shameful act of _borrowing_, that has the spirit of real art about it.

Isn't there a bit in Strauss' _Alpine Symphony_ that's stolen from Bruch's violin concerto? I think it's the bit that goes by the common name of "the view from the top".


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## Mahlerian

Adeodatus100 said:


> Isn't there a bit in Strauss' _Alpine Symphony_ that's stolen from Bruch's violin concerto? I think it's the bit that goes by the common name of "the view from the top".


Following an early performance of Strauss's second opera, Feuersnot, Pauline his wife said the following, according to Alma Mahler, whose then-fiancee had conducted the performance:
"How could anyone like such mediocrity? Mahler is fooling himself, he's only pretending he likes it! He must know perfectly well that it's all stolen from Wagner and Maxi [Max von Schillings] and others!"


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## Adeodatus100

Mahlerian said:


> Following an early performance of Strauss's second opera, Feuersnot, Pauline his wife said the following, according to Alma Mahler, whose then-fiancee had conducted the performance:
> "How could anyone like such mediocrity? Mahler is fooling himself, he's only pretending he likes it! He must know perfectly well that it's all stolen from Wagner and Maxi [Max von Schillings] and others!"


Nothing like a bit of spousal loyalty, eh?

(Now I think of it, Strauss' sunrise is at least half-stolen from Wagner too. Maybe they were living in neighbouring alpine valleys.)


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## starry

Dimitri said:


> I think Stravinsky was going for a sort of pun there--when you steal something, it becomes your own, but when you borrow it, it still belongs to its original owner.


Yeh he was probably just trying to sound clever.



Adeodatus100 said:


> And I think he's right. There's something brazen and bold about _stealing_, compared to the "I'm-not-sure-I-should-be-doing-this", slightly shameful act of _borrowing_, that has the spirit of real art about it.


I don't think you can draw broad conclusions like that. Borrowing doesn't have to be shameful it can be respectful, and stealing can be brazenly idiotic and lazy not always daring.


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## Dimitri

nightscape said:


> Dvorak's 3rd movement of his 9th Symphony is a clear homage to the 2nd movement of Beethoven's 9th. Again, not exactly theft, more of a tip of the cap.


This brings up an interesting point, I think: what makes you say it's a "tip of the cap" rather than theft (or some less negative word)? I think when there's some reason, usually extra-musical, to suggest that a composer was intentionally paying homage to another (ie the example somebody posted about Mozart referencing a Bach tune because the latter had just died), then that's fair. But when the reference is out of the blue and completely unrelated to the work, can we really call it a deliberate homage?

That said there could very well be some reason why Dvorak would reference Beethoven--I probably wouldn't know about it if there was--but my understanding of the symphony is that Dvorak tried to capture an American sound; intentionally referencing a German composer seems like the opposite of what he would want.

Disclaimer: I'm also not familiar enough with Beethoven's 9th to know the similarities.


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## brianvds

When Mozart was 12, he famously stole a motive for his opera "Bastien and Bastienne" from the opening of Beethoven's third symphony...


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## Kieran

brianvds said:


> When Mozart was 12, he famously stole a motive for his opera "Bastien and Bastienne" from the opening of Beethoven's third symphony...


And he had the audacity to follow that theft up a couple of years later with a brazen steal of Beethoven's 9th (about 58 seconds in)!


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## Jobis

I've been playing this bach menuet for piano recently and it has a phrase in it almost note for note the same as the beginning of Fur Elise.


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## Jobis

This video gives a really fascinating insight into how Tristan und Isolde was probably heavily inspired by Berlioz' Romeo and Juliet.

(skip to 1:00:00 in)


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## mtmailey

Well back then there were no copyright enforcement like it is now.Composers often use themes from other composers music.Nowadays people can prove copyright stuff faster also they pay people to tell.


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## Dimitri

Thanks for sharing--great examples!

here's another great one, an instance of Mozart stealing from Clementi: http://www.whosampled.com/sample/vi...onata in Bb Major No. 2: I. Allegro Con Brio/


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## Kieran

Dimitri said:


> Thanks for sharing--great examples!
> 
> here's another great one, an instance of Mozart stealing from Clementi: http://www.whosampled.com/sample/vi...onata in Bb Major No. 2: I. Allegro Con Brio/


That was more an _appropriation _or a _reference _than a _steal _- even though it still ended up in Wolfie's bag!


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## elgar's ghost

Not as much the 'acquisition' of actual material but the assuming of a structural style, consciously or otherwise. Sibelius's 7th symphony as we know was a concise, single-movement work where variety was maintained primarily by continuing shifts in tempo rather than changes in key. I was under the impression that Sibelius was the first to construct a symphony along these lines. Ernst Krenek's debut symphony follows what seems like a very similar pattern - and it was written three years earlier.


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## Dimitri

Kieran said:


> That was more an _appropriation _or a _reference _than a _steal _- even though it still ended up in Wolfie's bag!


I'm curious, what make you say that? I am not very knowledgable of either works, so the reference is lost on me.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Handel: 



(listen at 24:00)

Tchaikovsky: 




what do you think?


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## Kieran

Dimitri said:


> I'm curious, what make you say that? I am not very knowledgable of either works, so the reference is lost on me.


 I was kidding, _but_, you can hear that he took it and developed it differently. I'd never imagine Mozart as being short of ideas, quite the opposite, and the Viennese would most likely have recognised Clementi's work, so in that sense he referenced it knowingly, then went elsewhere with it, to suit his own purpose.

At a guess, that is, because we don't know if he even knew that particular work by Clementi, though it isn't unlikely that he would have...


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## Dimitri

Is it just me, or does the third movement of Rachmaninoff's 2nd symphony sound a bit like Tchaikovsky's famous love theme from his "Romeo and Juliet Overture"?

Right at the beginning:


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## musicphotogAnimal

If I recall correctly, Handel was fond of stealing from himself, using melodies that were already in other works as placeholders in his following works. I recall two arias from different operas sounding suspiciously alike though I cannot recall exactly which two at the moment. Maybe that will be another task for another day. Aw...who am I kidding. I'd rather pick up my 600mm and go to Alouette Lake. Maybe I will hear the Symphony of the Loons (actually since it is a vocal work by six common loons, it would be referrred to as the Chorale of the Loons), an original work by the Muskoka Loon Choral Singers.






Ah...what beautiful music.


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## spradlig

I apologize if this has been posted already, but the opening of Mahler's 3d symphony is pretty similar to the Big Theme from the last movement of Brahms's 1st symphony. Not similar enough to constitute stealing, but undoubtedly Mahler noticed the similarity.


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## Perotin

Beethoven stole this motif from Mozart:


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## Jobis

Beethoven's motif from the second movement of his 9th sounds a lot like this lully piece.


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## Skilmarilion

I believe in the 3rd movement of Tchaikvosky's _Pathetique_, there is a quite clear quotation from Mozart's 14th piano sonata. As far as I can see, a mere acknowledgement of his musical idol in his very final work.

*Mozart - Piano Sonata No. 14* (from 0:55)






*Tchaikovsky - Symphony No. 6* (from 2:17)


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## musicrom

There are some similarities here:

Beethoven - *Pathetique Sonata* (2nd movement): 



Mozart -* Piano Sonata No. 14* (2nd movement): 




And Kabalevsky was a real thief  (*Piano Concerto No. 3*):




 vs. 







 vs. 



Supposedly, this sounds like Rach 2, but I can't find the part:


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## Couac Addict

I think it was 1876 when I was cruising around Paris in my DeLorean (only Dr. Who can travel through time _and_ space...show off) doing some research on whether or not the only difference between courtesans and prostitutes was the pricey fee.
Guess who I bumped into? Léo Delibes. A great guy and he's so funny. We were going to double-date some ballerinas until he mentioned how he was really struggling to write music for the new Sylvia ballet. 
I said, "Léo, you need a night off to recharge the batteries". I don't think he really knew what a battery was so we stocked up on absinthe and travelled back to my place in 2014.
I can't recall if we had a creative connection going on or if it was just the green fairy kicking in but we were jamming to Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon. You'd think playing Em-A-D for five hours straight would get boring. Not when you're with Léo. I took a photo of him rockin' out. That's going to instagram.








Afterwards we ate kebabs and watched a Knight Rider marathon on TV. Léo just loves Knight Rider. He couldn't get enough of it. He says that Hasselhoff is the greatest thespian in the world. It was Léo's idea to drink absinthe shots every time we heard the Knight Rider theme. 




What a night. One I'll never forget if I ever remember it. As the sun climbed in the east, I took Léo back to his own time. I went home and popped my Sylvia recording in the CD player. Oh Léo, you thieving @#*^.





Is that the sort of thing you're after? What, no? Fine. Have it your way. Brahms poached a motif from Schumann's Rhenish for his 3rd symphony. I can promise you that there's a far less interesting story behind that one.


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## hpowders

I wouldn't call it stealing. I would call it paying respect to ones' awesome betters:

In Schubert's 9th Symphony and Brahms First Symphony there are quotes from Beethoven's 9th Symphony.

In Seppo Pohjola's First Symphony, there is a direct quote from Beethoven's 5th Symphony.

I call it paying homage to musical greatness.


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## shangoyal

Another case of not stealing, but modelling after:

Haydn: Symphony #13, final movt.

Mozart: Symphony #41 'Jupiter', final movt.


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## AdmiralSilver

Shostakovich's 15th Symphony is full of quotations, most notably from Rossini's Guillaume Tell Overture.


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## Winterreisender

I can't listen to Mendelssohn Piano Concerto #2, mvt. 2 (especially at 1:03)...






...without thinking of Mozart Clarinet Quintet, mvt. 2 (especially at 1:38)


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## Blake

shangoyal said:


> Another case of not stealing, but modelling after:
> 
> Haydn: Symphony #13, final movt.
> 
> Mozart: Symphony #41 'Jupiter', final movt.


Speaking of Haydn... more and more I'm seeing how much other composers have been influenced by him. Some pioneering that I'd attributed to Beethoven was actually already being done by Haydn.


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## AdmiralSilver

While I was shuffling through Haydn's early symphonies, I came to this:






Did someone recognize that?


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## Guest

Half of the music of John Williams aside, am I correct in hearing Handel's "Rejoice Greatly" aria in one of the early Beethoven violin sonatas? (I believe it's the 3rd sonata?)


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## brianvds

I'm surprised no one has mentioned yet that Mozart stole the theme from his Bastien and Bastienne overture from Beethoven's Eroica symphony. He always WAS a little brat, huh? :angel:


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## KenOC

brianvds said:


> I'm surprised no one has mentioned yet that Mozart stole the theme from his Bastien and Bastienne overture from Beethoven's Eroica symphony. He always WAS a little brat, huh? :angel:


Wolfgang skates again! And that rascal Mendelssohn, stealing the opening of his overture to Elijah from the score to Jaws. And people say John Williams is a scoundrel!


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## Richannes Wrahms

Adeodatus100 said:


> Isn't there a bit in Strauss' _Alpine Symphony_ that's stolen from Bruch's violin concerto


and stolen halves of themes from Beethoven's 5th and a bit of the 3rd too and the entire Ring cycle and Strauss's own previous works...


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## hpowders

In much of Ives' Concord Sonata, he is obsessed with the opening rhythmic bars of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony and pays tribute to this great work throughout the sonata.


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## Stargazer

Maybe it's just me, but the opening bars of each of these sound incredibly similar to me:

Stravinsky: Orpheus: 



Rutter: Requiem:


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## Funny

If you know both the Dvorak 9th and the Beethoven 9th, there's no question Dvorak is paying homage. By 1893 Beethoven's 9th had risen to the monumental status it has today, and the placement of both - right at the opening of a middle movement - primes us to hear the overlap. The correspondence is pretty simple: The music has three quick gestures. Dvorak uses the first two exactly, then instead of using the third, which is a tonic cadence, he spins the music out in a completely different direction, going into a dominant cadence. It's a fun twist that presupposes you know the earlier reference.


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## Funny

I posted this on a Saint-Saens thread, but it's more appropos here, and I never see anyone else talking about this, so...

Listen to the first movement of Saint-Saens' 2nd piano concerto, then the first movement of Rachmaninoff's 2nd. Remember that Rachmaninoff had been in a totally blocked period before doing hypnotic therapy and then the dam broke and Rachmaninoff poured out the music into the 2nd concerto. I'm convinced that Rachmaninoff was familiar with Saint-Saens' and was not aware of how much he was ripping off / paying homage to the latter. The correspondences, starting with the ponderous, low-register piano solo, are too many to be mere coincidence.


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## violadude

Funny said:


> I posted this on a Saint-Saens thread, but it's more appropos here, and I never see anyone else talking about this, so...
> 
> Listen to the first movement of Saint-Saens' 2nd piano concerto, then the first movement of Rachmaninoff's 2nd. Remember that Rachmaninoff had been in a totally blocked period before doing hypnotic therapy and then the dam broke and Rachmaninoff poured out the music into the 2nd concerto. I'm convinced that Rachmaninoff was familiar with Saint-Saens' and was not aware of how much he was ripping off / paying homage to the latter. The correspondences, starting with the ponderous, low-register piano solo, are too many to be mere coincidence.


I just listened and I barely hear a resemblance. Care to elaborate?


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## musicrom

I just noticed these 4 notes in the Nielsen Violin Concerto. Anyone recognize them? 






(Sounds quite like Elgar's Nimrod from the Enigma Variations)


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## Esterhazy

It was professional complementary to borrown ideas/quote themes from other composers. A sort of acknowledging your fellow composer's beautiful theme/popular theme.


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## Ian Moore

I know a few really well hidden ones but I am keeping them for my blog.


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## stevens

Not stealing but "inspired"?


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## millionrainbows

I heard a I-IV-V7 in Haydn, that I'm _sure_ Mozart got from him.


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## mtmailey

I saw online homage best defines it.They do that in anime & manga.


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## Funny

violadude said:


> I just listened and I barely hear a resemblance. Care to elaborate?


The most obvious echo is Rachmaninoff's entire opening (a piano concerto opening with an extended piano solo is not unheard of but was also, at least in 1900, not the norm) with the isolated chords shifting one note at a time being an elongated version of the last five isolated chords in Saint-Saens' opening. Then later when SS brings that material back he falls into the orchestral tutti with three piano octaves that are the ones Rachmaninoff later uses exactly. There are other individual moments, but it's more in the tone and feel of the music, the arrangement of arpeggio runs and the main melody for SS 1st movement which when inverted is very close to the main theme of Rach's 3rd movement. And in comparison to Rach's 1st, 3rd and 4th concertos, this music is particularly anachronistic, harking back into the 1860s. It's not theft, but a very liberal borrowing that he probably didn't do all of on purpose.


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## trazom

stevens said:


> Not stealing but "inspired"?


I doubt it. I believe the Introitus and Kyrie Eleison of the Requiem have fugal subjects that are found in Michael Haydn's Requiem in C minor and Handel's Messiah.



millionrainbows said:


> I heard a I-IV-V7 in Haydn, that I'm _sure_ Mozart got from him.


I heard this descending four-note sequence when listening to Handel, Bach, Scarlatti, Mozart, Brahms, Haydn, Schumann, Schubert, Tchaikovsky, Prokofiev, and Rachmaninoff once. Why are they all stealing from Pachelbel's canon in D?!?

Here's one of my favorite composers borrowing from my other favorite:


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## AST

A favorite of mine comes at the very end of _Widmung _when Schumann gently quotes Schubert's _Ave Maria_.


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## Perotin

You will be surprised at this:

Haydn: 



Mozart:


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## DonAlfonso

brianvds said:


> When Mozart was 12, he famously stole a motive for his opera "Bastien and Bastienne" from the opening of Beethoven's third symphony...





Kieran said:


> And he had the audacity to follow that theft up a couple of years later with a brazen steal of Beethoven's 9th (about 58 seconds in)!


It's not nice to make jokes like that - someone might take you seriously.
Mozart had been dead for 10 years when Beethoven wrote his 3rd symphony and for 33 when he wrote the 9th.

Only half 'classical' but Bernstein stole the tune for the song 'One Hand, One Heart' (West Side Story) from Beethoven's Emperor Concerto.


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## scratchgolf

I read recently that Beethoven was waiting on a reservation at a fine Viennese restaurant in 1825, when the maître d' called out "Beethoven, table of 1". After no reply, Schubert was more than happy to steal his seat.


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## hpowders

"Stealing" is not the same as purposely paying musical tribute.

Both Schubert and Brahms allude to Beethoven's Ninth Symphony in their symphonies No's. Nine and One, respectively and respectfully.


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## MoonlightSonata

A Thought: If two composers write two identical pieces at the same time, is it plagiarism?
Assuming the composers have never met, that is.
I would think no, but if the composers recycled their material in another piece after hearing the other composer's work, would it then be plagiarism.
I know, it's unlikely. As I say, just a thought.


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## Dutchman

Wagner 'borrowed' from Berlioz's Romeo and Juliet and used it in Tristan.


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## hpowders

I find it more like "paying tribute"-Mahler's Fifth symphony opening rhythmic motif-same as Beethoven's Fifth Symphony and it pervades the symphony.

Similarly Ives Concord Piano Sonata has many allusions to Beethoven's Fifth Symphony also.


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## fjf

http://gfhandel.org/anecdotes.html

When asked why he borrowed material composed by Bononcini, Handel is said to have replied,

"It's much too good for him; he did not know what to do with it."


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## Musicforawhile

If it hasn't been mentioned Vaughn Williams took the theme for 'Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis' from Tallis' 'Third mode melody.' Karl Jenkins (if he counts) took the melody from the Armed Man from Palestrina but can't recall what exactly, the L'homme Arme it must be...but don't know which movement.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

I think Rimsky-Korsakov used Grieg's 'In the Hall of the Mountain King' for the Overture to his 'The Tsar's Bride': 




Unless of course this overture was written before the Peer Gynt Suites.


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## musicrom

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> I think Rimsky-Korsakov used Grieg's 'In the Hall of the Mountain King' for the Overture to his 'The Tsar's Bride':
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unless of course this overture was written before the Peer Gynt Suites.


Maybe it's my biased ear not permitting me to recognize any similarities between Rimsky-Korsakov's music and anyone else's, but I can't hear any of "In the Hall of the Mountain King" in the overture to "The Tsar's Bride." 

Sometimes it very vaguely reminds me of it (only after listening really hard to find the similarities), but it doesn't seem like he ever steals the main theme exactly to me. Where do you hear his "theft" in the piece?

I do remember hearing some piano piece by Rachmaninoff that blatantly copied "In the Hall of Mountain King," but for the life of me, I cannot remember the name of that piece right now.

EDIT: Actually, I'm starting to hear it after trying to play the R-K in my head, but I don't know that it was intentional at all of him.


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## Loge

Wagner stole from his friend Liszt the opening of Parsifal.






Here is Liszt's the Bells of Strasbourg Cathedral.


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## Tristan

Fast-forward to 1:00 of Mozart's K. 222 to hear a theme similar to Beethoven's Ode to Joy theme:


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## Albert7

Max Richter remixing Vivaldi's Four Season is an incredible use of sampling in classical music:






I can't wait to get his albums soon.


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## SONNET CLV

Some of you may find the following web page intriguing: "Musical Borrowing -- An Annotated Bibliography"

http://www.chmtl.indiana.edu/borrowing/index.html

Click on "Browse the Bibliography" and browse. Much info here.


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## leafman

As has already been mentioned, Vivaldi provided a rich source of influence for more than one "famous" composer of his day and later. Both Handel and Bach borrowed from Vivaldi and, perhaps, were heavily influenced by Vivaldi in a positive way to add a vitality and energy to their own compositions and general style.

Such borrowing was not always a sort of subterfuge but often was freely acknowledged by a grateful and admiring borrower. If I recall correctly, we owe the relatively recent rediscovery of Vivaldi to Bach. 

After his death, Vivaldi had lapsed into obscurity. In relatively recent times, musical historians, noted the acknowledgements of Vivaldi by Bach in some of his own works and began researching this obscure baroque artist and created a growing popularity for this enigmatic red-haired priest from Venice.


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## Albert7

Apparently bel canto composers loved to steal from each other.
For example, my stepdad tells me on the Opera Rara version of Mercadante's Zaira there is an aria stolen / lifted directly from Rossini.


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## Woodduck

Mahler pays tribute at least twice in _Das Lied von der Erde_ to Wagner's _Parsifal_. The phrase "Der Lenz ist da" from "The Drunk in Spring" is sung to the same intervals as Gurnemanz's "und Lenz ist da" from Act 3 of the opera. I believe that in Mahler's personal score of _Parsifal_ he placed a mark over that phrase. The orchestral interlude from "Der Abschied" also distinctly echoes the agonizing "transformation music" in the third act of the opera.

When Mahler first heard _Parsifal_ at Bayreuth as a young man in 1883 he wrote to a friend "I can hardly describe my present state to you. When I came out of the Festspielhaus, completely spellbound, I understood that the greatest and most painful revelation had just been made to me, and that I would carry it unspoiled for the rest of my life." Obviously his prediction proved correct.


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## scratchgolf

"Carol of the Bells" written by Mykola Leontovych in 1904 sounds an awful lot like the finale of Beethoven's Op. 132.


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## Woodduck

One my favorite pilferings:











Skeptical? Just sing "Dies Nacht! Dies Nacht wird nicht nur jede Nacht!" to either one.

See? ut:


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## Gaspard de la Nuit

Off the top of my head:

Bach's E minor Partita, the toccata, stolen by Beethoven in the final movement of the F minor Op. 23 piano sonata - dotted rhythm that opens each work. Then Chopin stole the theme that highlights the Neapolitan in the Appassionata for the coda of his G minor Ballade.

But you can hear Boris Godunov in the second part of Rite of Spring, and even Meistersinger in the second theme of Brahms' 4th symphony...I hear things like this all the time.


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## musicrom

I listened to Sibelius' Symphony No. 5 recently, and I maybe figured out why the theme in the finale (not the swan call one) sounds very familiar. It sounds a lot like Ode to Joy! Maybe that's why it sounds somewhat "off" to me.


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## hpowders

AdmiralSilver said:


> Shostakovich's 15th Symphony is full of quotations, most notably from Rossini's Guillaume Tell Overture.


Yes. Also the "fate" theme from Wagner's Ring. I'm no big Shostakovich fan but I do like the 15th symphony!

I don't believe this is musical "stealing" because Shostakovich made no attempt to conceal the themes. They are quoted as big, bold, "in your face".


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## Albert7

No one could steal as much as Rossini himself. He stole from himself without any qualms and apparently if he was too lazy to get out of bed he just wrote new music again rather than pick up dropped music compositions which my dad told me.


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## atsizat

Johann Sebastian Bach stole this work from an italian composer named Allesandro Marcello.


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## Harold in Columbia

Ravel, modéré from the sonatine (1905) - 




Gershwin, requiem from _Porgy and Bess_ (1935) - 




Schubert, "Pause" from _Die Schöne Müllerin_ (1823) - 




Liszt, _Les preludes_ (1854) - 




Brahms, andante from the concerto for violin and cello (1887) - 




R. Strauss, the presentation of the rose from _Der Rosenkavalier_ (1911) - 




Mozart, "Cosa sento!" from _The Marriage of Figaro_ (1786) - 




Beethoven,"Cheerful impressions received on arriving in the country" from the _Pastoral_ symphony (1808) - 




Mozart, sinfonia concertante for violin and viola (1779) - 




Rossini, "Largo al factotum" from _The Barber of Seville_ (1816) - 




Paisiello, "Donne vaghe" from _La serva padrona_ (1781) - 




Mozart, act two finale from _Don Giovanni_ (1787) - 




and "Venite, inginocchiatevi" from _The Marriage of Figaro_ (1786) -


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## PlaySalieri

Beethoven pinched mozart's tune from the overture to bastienne and bastien for sy 3 1st movt


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## poconoron

Beethoven's Ode to Joy bears an uncanny resemblance to a few notes of Mozart's Misericordias Domini K.222 at minute .59 and several times thereafter:


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## Harold in Columbia

And that's not the last time Mozart used that motif.

"Martern aller Arten" from _The Abduction from the Seraglio_ -


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## Perotin

I don't know how about you, but I find this passage from Tchaikovsky's Tempest (20:10-20:50):




remarkably similar to this (47:15-48:05):


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## Pat Fairlea

Musicforawhile said:


> If it hasn't been mentioned Vaughn Williams took the theme for 'Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis' from Tallis' 'Third mode melody.'...


RVW described himself as a musical 'kleptomaniac', though I suspect he was influenced by others more than he actually 'borrowed'.


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## Winterreisender

Piano Sonata K. 457 by Mozart appears to have been lifted by Beethoven for the Pathetique Sonata.

(especially at 2.54)


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## Myriadi

Gaspard de la Nuit said:


> Off the top of my head:
> 
> Bach's E minor Partita, the toccata, stolen by Beethoven in the final movement of the F minor Op. 23 piano sonata - dotted rhythm that opens each work.


Hmm, Beethoven's Op. 23 is a violin sonata. Did you mean the 23rd sonata, the _Appassionata_? Either way, I can't see that much similarity; I think the famous example of the Pathetique vs. Bach's C minor is much more convincing:






and






Still, I wonder if Beethoven knew the partitas at the time - certainly in 1799 they weren't republished, and the original edition was only available to a select few. Could be, though. Could also be that Beethoven simply knew some of the typical Baroque Affekten from the WTC, or other music, or they may have ended up inspiring some piano pieces from the 1780s or so... some dissemination of CPE Bach's music may have helped, too.

==

Speaking of Bach, I think one of the less known (?) borrowings he did was from Telemann's lost concerto, only somewhat recently rediscovered and reconstructed:






In case someone somehow missed this very famous tune, here it is in the version most people know:






To think we almost never knew! I've read the Telemann manuscript was damaged almost beyond repair.


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## PJaye

This makes me really appreciate the open minded perspective that these composers seemed to have towards creative interaction and the give and take between artists. For me it’s a kind of sad influence of materialism that now we so often claim ownership and guard our artistic ideas like a piece of realestate or something. I was kind of shocked at first hearing the Telemann piece being so similar to the Bach keyboard concerto I’ve listened to so many times, but that gave way to wondering and amazement that Telemann’s piece would resonate with Bach and evolve into his own piece in this way. I’m not that informed on how these practices were generally viewed in societies of the time. I’m guessing they may not have cared much if they got a pleasurable piece of music out of it. It seems many of the musicians were quite accepting and sometimes even encouraging of it -maybe because any musician knows everything he’s ever composed was influenced and indebted to something else. When you compose, you can hear those distant echoes and shades from your listening past somewhere in the background -I think It’s impossible not to- though they may spring up in any number of ways in ones own piece with varying degrees of reflecting what had played a part in its impetus. I’m loathe to call that process stealing. Though another side of that is the lazy uninspired hack looking for an opportunity. That would probably be more readily apparent in the result though; or the kind of open theft that goes on in popular music now where someone else’s melody is pilfered verbatim with a few new lyrics thrown over-top of it like a kind of business transaction. I guess it’s complicated.


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## Myriadi

PJaye said:


> I'm not that informed on how these practices were generally viewed in societies of the time.


Like you said, it is complicated. For example, from a bit earlier but in the same period, Froberger and Buxtehude rarely shared scores of their keyboard works with anyone, afraid of people stealing. Froberger simply disliked people playing badly and misrepresenting the music; for Buxtehude it was also a question of prestige and, essentially, his job - if the pieces aren't published and/or in wide circulation, all kinds of tricks he invented remained his alone, so other, less creative organists can't steal those to compete for important positions. Understandably, this was a somewhat common attitude. Things turned out well for Froberger, as they seemed to usually do for him - people still loved his music so much, they copied the hell out of his work whenever the opportunity arose, and we have a lot of it handed down in all kinds of versions. With Buxtehude, however, his attitude caused the complete loss of an immense body of work, and if it weren't for some members of the Bach family, and a few other friends, the losses would've been catastrophic indeed.


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