# Which composer had the best understanding of key-changes/modulation and chromaticism?



## ericdxx (Jul 7, 2013)

In your opinion?


----------



## Guest (Jan 16, 2014)

All.

.....................


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

ericdxx said:


> In your opinion, wich composer had the best understanding of key-changes/modulation and chromaticism?
> 
> For me, Schoenberg; in fact, he understood tonality better than anyone, and put it in a book: his Harmonielehre. Musically, he proved it with Pelleas und Mellisande and Transfigured Night. Richard Strauss runs a close second, with his Metamorphosen.


----------



## lupinix (Jan 9, 2014)

hm, chopin or prokofiev
but well it depends on what you mean with "understanding", but at least they certainly had feeling for it


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The usual suspects the 3 B's and Mozart and even though I have no taking to him, Schubert.


----------



## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

Debussy, Schoenberg and Chopin.

As for chromaticism within functional tonality, It'd be Bach, Beethoven and Mozart.


----------



## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

some guy said:


> All.
> 
> .....................


Yeah, 'understanding' is the wrong word. A guy I used to work for liked the word 'nebulous'. (He also liked 'salubrious', but what he meant by that wasn't nebulous.)


----------



## Guest (Jan 16, 2014)

I like the sound of "Which composer had the most salubrious understanding of key-changes/modulation and chromaticism," though.

Though "Which composer had the best nebulous of key-changes/modulation and chromaticism" has its own peculiar charm....


----------



## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

If the question is "which composer had the most unctuous understanding of key changes etc" then it's Dick Strauss no doubts


----------



## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

In terms of modulation: Schubert

Here:











In terms of chromaticism: Schubert


----------



## violadude (May 2, 2011)

I'm pretty sure all the composers that are part of the "great" canon understood modulation and chromaticism just fine, regardless of how you feel about their music.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Yeah. Could you ever conceive the 3 B's, Mozart and Schubert having to repeat modulation 101 in summer school?


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

hpowders said:


> Yeah. Could you ever conceive the 3 B's, Mozart and Schubert having to repeat modulation 101 in summer school?


It has always amazed me how Beethoven could get so far afield tonally and then, at just the right time, change one note in a chord or arpeggio and land right back where he's supposed to be. How'd he do that???


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

KenOC said:


> It has always amazed me how Beethoven could get so far afield tonally and then, at just the right time, change one note in a chord or arpeggio and land right back where he's supposed to be. How'd he do that???


Mozart too. The piano concertos, string quintets and opera arias are all filled with miraculous modulations.

Even though Schubert is not one of my faves, I must admit he too was a modulation genius.

That's part of what separates the big boys from the hacks!


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Duplicate post.


----------



## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Reger wrote the book on modulation, so clearly....


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> Reger wrote the book on modulation, so clearly....


Included is that very important chapter covering stopping anywhere when an audience member with a white red-tipped cane is crossing, intersection or anywhere else.


----------



## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

some guy said:


> All.
> 
> .....................


Not all. Definitely not Cage for example. But I would say J S Bach would be one who had thorough command of it judging by this


----------



## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

Have you singled out Cage because of the comment Schoenberg made about his understanding of harmony?


----------



## violadude (May 2, 2011)

ArtMusic said:


> Not all. Definitely not Cage for example. But I would say J S Bach would be one who had thorough command of it judging by this


What made you think that Cage had a poor understanding of harmony? Was he in your classes at New School University? Did you see his grades?


----------



## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

To the Cage haters, what about these pieces:





 - In A Landscape





 - Six melodies





 - Third construction

Those pieces are from his pre-chance period (i.e., before 1950). I think they are extremely accessible and beautiful in the most conventional meaning of the word.
I only post this to show that Cage was pretty aware of what he was doing all the time.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

violadude said:


> What made you think that Cage had a poor understanding of harmony? Was he in your classes at New School University? Did you see his grades?


I'd prefer to see the student's grades, especially those for the harmony and ear-training courses... uh, music history, too


----------



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

aleazk said:


> To the Cage haters, what about these pieces:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, this is so beautiful, with this composition Cage can be counted among greatest composers such as Michael Nyman and Yann Tiersen.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Aramis said:


> Yes, this is so beautiful, with this composition Cage can be counted among greatest composers such as Michael Nyman and Yann Tiersen.


To the expense of giving an impression of completely having a wool in your ears lack of discernment, you opt instead to be thought of as witty?


----------



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

PetrB said:


> To the expense of giving an impression of completely having a wool in your ears lack of discernment, you opt instead to be thought of as witty?


No. While there are some considerable differences, I think _In A Landscape_ is aesthetically akin to the minimalistic, cheesy piano soundtracks and appeals to similiar sensitivites. Work of Cage is surely more "serious", but I still perceive it as vapid twanging.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Aramis said:


> No. While there are some considerable differences, I think _In A Landscape_ is aesthetically akin to the minimalistic, cheesy piano soundtracks and appeals to similiar sensitivites. Work of Cage is surely more "serious", but I still perceive it as vapid twanging.


Good, "Considerable differences" was all I was hoping for you, and hoping for


----------



## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Hmmm. Well, I like it a lot better than the new age piano music I've heard.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

dgee said:


> If the question is "which composer had the most unctuous understanding of key changes etc" then it's Dick Strauss no doubts


I vehemently disagree! Cesar Franck is so easily a match, and if not a dead tie, then the winner of this 'nebulous dubious unctions salubrious' prize. Give that dead man a cigar!


----------

