# Where to start with Mahler and Wagner



## Mad Cat

I've been enjoying classical music for about 25 years now but I've yet to explore Mahler or Wagner. I've only heard snippets of some of their orchestral works.

Which of the Mahler symphonies would be a good place to start?

Where to start with Wagner? Ring cycle?

I'm not a fan of choral works, so would like to concentrate on the instrumental works, at least to start. 

Recommendations on specific recordings would be most welcome as well. Especially in multichannel, though stereo is fine too.


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## Larkenfield

With Mahler, I’d start at the beginning with Symphony No. 1 and No. 2 and go through them in order, though you’re probably going to hear opinions to the contrary on that. I’d also start with the recordings of Bruno Walter and Otto Klemperer, both of whom knew Mahler personally and are likely more idiomatic in sound and approach than the conductors who came after them; so you’re getting performance close to the source. Then the Bernstein cycle with the New York Phil is another landmark, in my opinion. Well worth hearing. The three most challenging symphonies to appreciate are generally considered to be No. 6, 7, and 8, and they may take longer to absoorb but I’ve found them to be the most rewarding of all because of their extraordinary and sometimes complex content. Good luck! After Mozart, Mahler is my favorite.


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## Rogerx

Mad Cat said:


> I've been enjoying classical music for about 25 years now but I've yet to explore Mahler or Wagner. I've only heard snippets of some of their orchestral works.
> 
> Which of the Mahler symphonies would be a good place to start?
> 
> Where to start with Wagner? Ring cycle?
> 
> I'm not a fan of choral works, so would like to concentrate on the instrumental works, at least to start.
> 
> Recommendations on specific recordings would be most welcome as well. Especially in multichannel, though stereo is fine too.


I am not that longer member here myself, great help is the _search option_, special if you use _Advanced Search_.
I just did two with your requested names and dear lord so much topic's about those two.


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## Art Rock

Everyone will have a different opinion (as usual), I can just tell you how I started in the 80s with these two, who are among my very favourite composers.

Mahler: Symphony 4, Kindertotenlieder, Rückert Lieder, Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen - after that Das Lied von der Erde
Wagner: Siegfried Idyll, Overtures - after that the Ring


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## Merl

If you like purely orchestral then start with Symphonies 1, 5 & 6. If you can handle "some bird warbling" (a quote from one of my mates) then Symphony 2 is a must.


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## CnC Bartok

Back in the day when I first started listening to Mahler, the "perceived wisdom" was to start with the symphonies that were pretty and short, i.e. Nos. 1 and 4. This did admittedly ignore the distinct possibility that some people do have some stamina, but starting with "Mahler-Lite" is not that bad a beginning. 

The last one of the then nine I understood was probably the Ninth, and it took a while to understand what the hell all the fuss was with Das Lied von der Erde. Strangely the Tenth I found relatively easy to get a handle on quite early, maybe it was that renewed sense of adventure and exploring new ground?

Now, Nos.1 and 4 are pretty low down in my own Mahler hierarchy, but if there is indeed an easy way into ol' Gustav's music, it's these. Incidentally, I also found the song at the end of No.4 perfectly accessible (and I wasn't the biggest fan of bird warbling either!) and a good way of breaking down the barrier between the normal human being and the "Art Song".

I started with Kubelik's set on Deutsche Grammophon, then discovered other conductors, grew out of Kubelik's supposedly straight-laced interpretations, and have found myself returning to him more and more in recent years. He's a conductor I revere, and I think for good reason. Rattle's recordings are consistently clean and beautifully recorded, ditto Chailly. Solti's are exciting as well as pathos-laden when needed. If it's sound quality, I'd tentatively suggest Chailly first? But Mahler recording is an art in itself, and most modern recordings are immensely good on that front.

As to Wagner (cue sarcastic comment about first reading his highly enlightening Das Judenthum in der Musik, which I will resist) the orchestral highlights and the occasional sung highlight are still the best way in. Away from the operas, there isn't much, the Siegfried Idyll sort of qualifies and is genuinely lovely. There must be a reason why there are more Ring highlights out there than Ring Cycles!! The individual opera of his I first worked through (and loved, and still do love) was the Flying Dutchman. Some great tunes, great scary choruses, and only occasionally do the female parts sound like the proverbial force eight gale.


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## Guest

Curiously, it was Mahler's 5th that started my dislike - through the use of the adagietto in _Death in Venice _- and my like - the same symphony's 1st movement used in _Fall of Eagles_. I didn't know they belonged to the same symphony!

But it was watching a performance of the 6th that really grabbed my attention, and encouraged me to listen to more.


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## Merl

I avoid the 3rd and 8th like the plague. I like neither but plenty do.


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## SixFootScowl

Wagner: Der fliegende Holländer (the Flying Dutchman)

Mahler: Symphony 1 or 5


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## elgar's ghost

With Wagner I'd start with the two shorter opers, _Der fliegende Holländer_ (1841) and the first instalment of the Ring Cycle, _Das Rheingold_ (1853-54).

With Mahler, I agree with Larkenfield - go with symphonies 1 (1887-88) and 2 (1888-94). Also listen to the three principal song cycles if you can:

_(4) Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen_ (1885-86):
_(5) Rückert-Lieder_ (1901-04):
_(5) Kindertotenlieder_ (1901-04):


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## OperaChic

Mahler was a gifted melodist and wonderful orchestrator, and I feel his talents shine most when his music is wedded to words that keep his scope in check a little. I would say give Das Lied von der Erde or one of the song cycles a try. No they are not instrumental but they are also not choral works. If you insist on starting with one of the purely instrumental symphonies I've always found his last, the 9th, to be the most cohesive.

With Wagner I feel like listening to the orchestral excerpts and overtures is a little like listening to those "best of" cds that extract some of the most popular movements and well known melodies from the composer's larger works, but cheapen them a little and cause them to lose a lot of their impact by taking them out of context. Yes, the orchestral passages from his operas are grand, but they have so much more power in their proper setting. With that in mind I agree that Der fliegende Hollander is a great place to start, because if you're going to come to terms with Wagner sooner or later you're going to have to tackle him head on, and this is one of his shortest and most easily digestible operas. It's kind of like the "essence" of Wagnerian music drama boiled down to its most basic elements. Again though, if you decide to go purely instrumental, the Siegfried Idyll symphonic poem is a great choice as it is an attractive stand alone piece. Outside of that, he doesn't have much purely instrumental music of much quality.


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## Thomyum2

A suggestion if you're completely new to Wagner. You mentioned that you prefer instrumental music but of course, most of Wagner's music is sung. Listening to the orchestral excerpts and selections from the operas is perhaps a good starting point and a way to get some familiarity, but I agree with the last post that you'll only be hearing something taken out of context. To really appreciate Wagner fully you have to experience the operas, or 'music dramas' as he called them. My suggestion is not to just listen to the operas, but rather watch them - preferably live, but if not, then a DVD is a good substitute. Wagner is meant to be experienced this way, not just heard in a recording. The music is really integral to the text and the drama and you can't fully appreciate his unique form of art without being able to follow the dialogue and understand what's happening and what's being said. The music and the text compliment each other in a way that is unlike the operatic music of any other composer. Without the text, I think the music is essentially 'disembodied' and can sound aimless and dull at times. But the operas as a full dramatic experience are extremely powerful.


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## Rach Man

I am not a musician, but I like to listen to a lot of music, mostly classical. So if you want to take the opinion of people on the forum who have studied music, I will not be offended. But here are my suggestions.

Over the past 2-3 years I have really learned to like Mahler's symphonies. The first one that got me going is the first symphony and this is the symphony that I suggest that you begin your journey. There are many here on talkclassical who are not partial to Georg Solti. But I have several Mahler symphony #1 recordings and I prefer Solti with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra.









The next Mahler symphony that I suggest is Symphony #3. It does have vocals in two of the six movements. And, if I can suggest a recording, it is Honeck with the Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra. The performance is great and the sonics are tremendous. Because this is an SACD recording, it is a bit pricier than regular CD recordings. But it is worth it.









Finally, I am not a big fan of Wagner. But if you want to try some of his music without words, Lorin Maazel did the Ring Without Words with the Berlin Philharmonic. I do like this recording. I am sure that anyone who likes opera will tell you that you are nuts not to listen to the opera version. But, if you are like me, I prefer the non-opera version. (I have been called nuts before.)


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## realdealblues

I love both. 

Wagner I would start with "The Ring". Especially Das Rheingold and Die Walkure. To me they are both very melodic and easy to follow.

With Mahler I first heard the 5th and 6th Symphonies which started my love. I then started from Symphony 1 and worked my way through the rest. In some ways it's nice to start at the beginning because you can see how Mahler progressed but if you just want to find out if Mahler will be of interest to you I would listen to a few of the more popular ones or even a few of the more popular movements like the 2nd, 3rd & 6th symphonies first movements, the 5th symphonies fourth movement, etc.


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## OperaChic

Thomyum2 said:


> A suggestion if you're completely new to Wagner. You mentioned that you prefer instrumental music but of course, most of Wagner's music is sung. Listening to the orchestral excerpts and selections from the operas is perhaps a good starting point and a way to get some familiarity, but I agree with the last post that you'll only be hearing something taken out of context. To really appreciate Wagner fully you have to experience the operas, or 'music dramas' as he called them. My suggestion is not to just listen to the operas, but rather watch them - preferably live, but if not, then a DVD is a good substitute. Wagner is meant to be experienced this way, not just heard in a recording. The music is really integral to the text and the drama and you can't fully appreciate his unique form of art without being able to follow the dialogue and understand what's happening and what's being said. The music and the text compliment each other in a way that is unlike the operatic music of any other composer. Without the text, I think the music is essentially 'disembodied' and can sound aimless and dull at times. But the operas as a full dramatic experience are extremely powerful.


I agree that there's no substitute for the experience of seeing an opera live. However, I suspect how much one gets out of audio recordings or DVDs will vary from person to person. If someone generally has trouble visualizing the action of an opera as they follow along with the text and scenario, then DVDs would be an excellent tool. The only caveat I would add is that when it comes to Wagner, many of these productions on video feature "concepts" that have little to do with Wagner's dramatic creations and place the narrative in a setting that is altogether foreign to what the characters are singing about. This is something anyone new to Wagner or opera in general should be aware of, because viewing an opera where the music and words are describing a kingdom in Germany during the 10th century that is visited by a supernatural being but the staging is of a bunch of characters wearing rat costumes it could be incredibly confusing.

For myself opera DVDs are often disappointing, as all the close-ups make the singer's histrionics almost unbearable for me. Where I might view an opera on DVD once or maybe twice, I can return to a favorite recording over and over and over.


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## Mad Cat

Thanks for the helpful guidance everyone. It sounds like Mahler's first is recommended as a good entrance into Mahler. I knew Wagner was mostly sung, but he's too important a composer to ignore. I'm just trying to stretch myself into new areas. These two guys, from what I've heard of them to date, always seemed less accessible to me, which is why I've ignored them so long.


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## SixFootScowl

Mad Cat said:


> Thanks for the helpful guidance everyone. It sounds like Mahler's first is recommended as a good entrance into Mahler. I knew Wagner was mostly sung, but he's too important a composer to ignore. I'm just trying to stretch myself into new areas. These two guys, from what I've heard of them to date, always seemed less accessible to me, which is why I've ignored them so long.


I must admit that it was a long time of listening to other composers before I got into either Mahler or Wagner. I hope you get as addicted to both as many of us are because there is a lot of great music to enjoy.


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## wkasimer

Mad Cat said:


> Which of the Mahler symphonies would be a good place to start?


That's hard to say, although I'd certainly avoid #8 until you're fully immersed in Mahler's sound world. My personal favorites are #9, #6, and #3, but that's not where I started (#2).

Wherever you decide to start, I would recommend buying Ben Zander's recordings with the Philharmonia (they're on Telarc). They may not be the best performances imaginable (although none of them are less than good), but they all include a bonus disc with Zander's discussion of various issues related to the work. Cheap used copies are very, very easy to find on Amazon.

I know that many will not recommend buying complete sets, but it's a very economical way to acquire all of Mahler's music, so you can decide for yourself which symphonies you want to pursue further. I recommend one of these sets:




























The Bernstein is justly famous and dirt-cheap. The Tennstedt has the advantage of including additional discs containing live recordings. The Bertini and Gielen sets are a little more expensive, but do feature better sound quality.



> Where to start with Wagner? Ring cycle?


That's where I started. I'd suggest using the library or a streaming service to sample. If you don't care for vocal music in general, you will likely find a lot of Wagnerian singers unsatisfactory, so you'll need to pick and choose.


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## Weird Heather

Many of the other suggestions here are as good as anything I can recommend, but I have a bit to add. There is no one right way to approach these composers; their music is complex, and the taste and personality of the listener is likely to be a large component in determining the best approach.

One characteristic of Mahler that you might notice as you explore his work is that separate works are often related to each other. I've even seen arguments that all of his symphonies together constitute a gigantic super-symphony. In some cases, it is quite obvious that one symphony is a sequel to its immediate predecessor. For example, Nos. 1 and 2 are an acknowledged pair, and Nos. 3 and 4 are too. The thematic connections between Nos. 3 and 4 are particularly obvious. This could argue in favor of approaching them sequentially, although I don't find that absolutely necessary. My starting points with Mahler were Symphonies Nos. 1 and 5, and the song cycle "Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen." Symphony No. 5 took some time to grow on me, but the others immediately appealed to me.

Wagner is perhaps more challenging, especially for someone who mostly listens to instrumental music. You might even consider watching some operas by other composers first just to get used to the idea of opera - Wagner might not be the best first exposure to opera; some of the familiar operas by Mozart, Rossini, Verdi, or Puccini might be easier to take. Some instrumental highlights would be a good way to get used to Wagner's musical language, but I agree with others here who argue that you would be missing a lot by experiencing this music out of its context. Once you have tried this just to get a feel for the music, I would suggest jumping right in and watching or listening to an entire opera. If you get a chance to see one in person, that would be ideal, but a video recording would be a good second best. Unless you aren't interested in the visuals at all, I think it would be easier to connect to the story by seeing it rather than merely listening. It has been noted here that many productions take a lot of liberties with the staging. I find this to be a valid approach if done right, but it is probably not the best choice for a beginner. Look for a traditional staging if possible. Although the Ring cycle is quite lengthy, it is a great mythological/adventure story, and you might find it approachable if you watch the four operas one at a time and take a good break between them. The 1990 Metropolitan Opera DVD recording is a traditional staging, so it might be a good beginner's choice.


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## Josquin13

1. Mahler:

Back in college, I began with an Odyssey LP of Bruno Walter's New York recording of Maher's 4th, and played it over and over again. To this day it remains my favorite recording of Mahler's 4th, as no one since has sounded quite so authentically 'Viennese' as Walter. Indeed, the 4th is arguably Mahler's most 'Viennese' symphony, and somewhat atypical for him (among the 9). However, the mono sound quality isn't very good, so I'd hesitate to recommend Walter's 4th as your starting point, even though it served me well:





https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symph...pID=51XYQVQK66L&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

I agree with others that the 1st, 2nd, & 4th Symphonies make excellent introductions (though sound quality is an important consideration for the (choral) 2nd, & therefore, I'd be less inclined to recommend a mono or early stereo recording--though admittedly, Klemperer or Walter's 2nds may be exceptions). The 3rd & 5th took me longer to appreciate, except for their beautiful Adagios. The 7th is also not a bad place to start. However, Mahler's greatest symphony in my opinion is his 9th, and it's embarrassing to admit that it took me several listens before I came to more fully appreciate how great a symphony it is.

I also became acquainted with Mahler's orchestral song cycles early on, and would recommend his "Kindertotenlieder" and "Rückert-Lieder" cycles, probably before "Das Lied von der Erde" (translated, "The Song of the Earth"). The EMI recordings of Dame Janet Baker, with Sir John Barbirolli are classics:

https://www.amazon.com/Great-Record...1525366214&sr=1-1&keywords=mahler+janet+baker Or, another Amazon import listing of the same: https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Kinde...D=51-WzHe1kvL&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=detail

The 5th and final song from the Rückert-Lieder, "Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen", or "I am lost to the world", is a favorite of mine, & essential listening. Here are two You Tube listings of the same Janet Baker recording, as they sound different to me--I suspect the 1st is from an LP and the second from a CD:










For one stop shopping, I'd recommend either (or both) of the following two box sets as good introductions to Mahler, with the EMI issue being the more comprehensive buy; though it's hard to beat Bernstein's 1st Sony/Columbia cycle as an introduction to the symphonies, among box sets; especially with the new DSD Sony remasters that have significantly improved the 1960s sound, and for the current asking price of $20.97 (including shipping, if you have prime), which makes it a steal:

https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Compl...d=1525367204&sr=1-1&keywords=bernstein+mahler

However, the "150th Anniversary" EMI box set is also a super bargain (currently at $31.93 on Amazon), and contains a lot more music (16 CDs):

https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-150th...49&sr=1-1&keywords=mahler+anniversary+box+set

As far as 'one conductor' cycles go, a good alternative to Bernstein's set is Rafael Kubelik's (analogue) DG set. However, I have an early 1990 CD copy of this set: https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symph...pID=413E6F0HWSL&preST=_SX300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch, and think it needs to be remastered: & I don't know if the more recent re-issues have done so? Kubelik's individual live Mahler recordings on Audite are worthwhile too (but don't quite add up to a complete cycle).

https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-10-Sy...pID=51BttEqtLsL&preST=_SX300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

Another good option is Bernard Haitink's 'live' x-mas Mahler recordings from the Concertgebouw, which are more exciting than his studio Mahler cycle (also on Philips), but unfortunately the set doesn't comprise a full cycle & it may take some looking to find it at a reasonable price. I've also heard good things about Klaus Tennstedt's live LPO recordings box set, and Gary Bertini's cycle too, but haven't heard either (at least, not entirely). In addition, I think highly of Leif Segerstam's Danish cycle on Chandos, which has excellent sound, but it may be hard to come by these days (?). Otherwise, the Mahler cycles by Abbado, Boulez, Inbal, Neumann, and Gielen are generally well regarded.

https://www.amazon.com/Bernard-Hait...70947&sr=1-19&keywords=haitink+mahler+philips

Yet it's probably best to build your Mahler collection one piece at a time--that is, create you own cycle, symphony by symphony. With that in mind I'd recommend choosing from the following notable Mahler conductors: Among the older generation, I'd suggest looking into Sir John Barbirolli (his EMI 5th & 9th), Carla Maria Giulini (his Chicago S.O. 1st & 9th), Bruno Walter, Otto Klemperer, Karol Ancerl, Rafael Kubelik, Leonard Bernstein (though I'm generally not as keen on Bernstein's later DG recordings), F. Charles Adler (if you don't mind bad sound, as Adler was one of Mahler's proteges), Vaclav Newman, Hans Rosbaud, Leopold Stokowski, and Jascha Horenstein. More recently, among digital era recordings, I'd suggest sampling (& reading reviews for) recordings by Gunther Herbig, Riccardo Chailly, Claudio Abbado, Pierre Boulez, Harmut Haenchen, Klaus Tennstedt, Leif Segerstam, and Eliahu Inbal (& perhaps Michael Gielen, whose Mahler cycle I've not heard in its entirety). I've also enjoyed Sir Simon Rattle's two recordings of the 10th.

Since Mahler's music is extremely difficult to record well, finding recordings that offer 'state of the art' audiophile sound has it's advantages (in terms of hearing the whole of Mahler's thickly orchestrated scores). With that in mind, I'd recommend looking into the Exton label recordings by conductors Zdenek Macal (Czech Philharmonic) and Eliahu Inbal (with the Czech Philharmonic, though probably not Inbal's Tokyo Metropolitan S.O. recordings, as I recently purchased his Tokyo 9th and didn't find the SQ to be as remarkable as Exton managed for Macal), and perhaps Vaclav Neumann, Sakari Oramo, and Manfred Honeck too, though I've not heard their Exton recordings. Granted, these may not be the best performances in the catalogue, and they are on the pricey side--being hybrid SACD imports, but, as noted, the Exton sound quality for Macal (at least) is astonishingly fine:

https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Zdene...372089&sr=1-2-catcorr&keywords=Mahler+exton+9
https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symph...pID=518eX7njIuL&preST=_SX300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch
https://www.amazon.com/Symphony-No-...qid=1525380305&sr=1-7&keywords=Macal+mahler+3
https://www.amazon.com/Inbal-Czech-...525381263&sr=1-1&keywords=inbal+sacd+mahler+1 (I'm waiting for this hybrid SACD to arrive in the mail, but I'd avoid the other "one point microphone" Exton release of this same recording, as I've read some bad reviews about that sound engineeering technique.)

Riccardo Chailly's Decca recordings of the 3rd & 9th were likewise released individually as hybrid SACDs (from his Decca CD cycle), and both offer very good audiophile sound:

https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symph...pID=616CQ4DQRSL&preST=_SX300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch
https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symph...525380672&sr=1-2&keywords=Chailly+mahler+sacd

Gilbert Kaplan's hybrid SACD DG recording of Mahler's 2nd also has terrific sound (it's available on CD too, as I see the SACD has become pricey):

https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symph...1525381076&sr=1-1&keywords=Kaplan+mahler+sacd

In addition, there's a new BR Klassik label Mahler cycle coming out, which I've not heard. BR normally offers 'state of the art' sound quality, though I can't offer an opinion on the performances: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B079ZSSHY...olid=21SJHDTIM1UQ9&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

Finally, some have liked Ivan Fischer's Mahler cycle on Channel Classics, but I wasn't overly crazy about his 2nd or 9th, & didn't explore further. Others have liked Benjamin Zander's recordings on Telarc, which I don't know. Nor have I heard Jonathan Nott's hybrid SACD cycle either.

2. Wagner:

As for Wagner, I'd suggest starting with Carlos Kleiber's Staatskapelle Dresden recording of "Tristan und Isolde" (and/or Reginald Goodall's Tristan, as an alternative view to Kleiber's): https://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Trist...pID=51tVO2T4qhL&preST=_SX300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

or the import Japanese pressing, which sounds better to me (not sure why): https://www.amazon.co.jp/%E3%83%AF%...372937&sr=8-5&keywords=wagner+tristan+kleiber

You might also begin with a recording of Wagner Overtures & Preludes. The following make excellent choices, though they come in varying degrees of sound quality (but don't let that deter you from listening to Knappertsbusch's old recordings, as they're classics):

https://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Overt...=1525373124&sr=1-60&keywords=wagner+overtures
https://www.amazon.com/Philharmonik...&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=wagner+conductors+DG (historical recordings)
https://www.amazon.co.jp/%E3%83%AF%...rd_wg=QidQI&psc=1&refRID=6R5S7JP8WJJ257WRQF20
https://www.amazon.com/Hans-Knapper...&keywords=hans+knappertsbusch+conducts+wagner (this Eloquence set includes the contents of the Knappertsbusch import CD above, which is a desert island disc in my Wagner collection.)
https://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Opera...pID=517WbGLsAaL&preST=_SX300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch
https://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Orche...d=1525378076&sr=1-2&keywords=klemperer+wagner

Finally, I've also enjoyed this 2 CD "Best of" Wagner sampler, surprisingly so: https://www.amazon.com/Twilight-God...&keywords=Richard+Wagner+twilight+of+the+gods

Hope that helps.


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## CnC Bartok

Josquin - i very much liked and was thoroughly impressed by Fischer's Mahler 3, that one's well worth having, even if it cannot displace Horenstein's recording on the defunct (?) Unicorn label.

The Third is on and off my favourite Mahler symphony, but even I would struggle to call it his best! Structure wise it's insane, but the opening movement is an absolute wonder.

The symphony must be like the world.

Yup!


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## SixFootScowl

Weird Heather said:


> I've even seen arguments that all of his symphonies together constitute *a gigantic super-symphony*.


Awesome! Does it beat Wagner's Ring in length? No matter, it is the symphonic equivalent of the Ring in length.


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## Thomyum2

OperaChic said:


> For myself opera DVDs are often disappointing, as all the close-ups make the singer's histrionics almost unbearable for me. Where I might view an opera on DVD once or maybe twice, I can return to a favorite recording over and over and over.


Yes, you make a very good point. I agree you do have to be pretty selective about opera DVDs, but there are some good quality ones out there. Also the Metropolitan Opera broadcasts are another good alternative as the productions and sound are generally quite good (I hear you can subscribe to stream these from their library too). I have to admit though that once I have a good familiarity with the opera, I too prefer to return to my favorite recordings!


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## Weird Heather

Fritz Kobus said:


> Awesome! Does it beat Wagner's Ring in length? No matter, it is the symphonic equivalent of the Ring in length.


That got me curious. I just added up the lengths for the Metropolitan Opera late 1980s/early 1990s audio Ring recording and all of Mahler's symphonies (including Das Lied von der Erde and the Cooke version of No. 10) and compared them. For the Mahler symphonies, I mostly used the Bernstein Columbia set. The Ring is longer, but not by a great deal. Mahler's symphonies total 13 hours 36 minutes, and Wagner's Ring totals 15 hours 18 minutes. Maybe a very slow conductor could drag Mahler out to match Wagner's Ring cycle, or the addition of orchestral song cycles (which are also related to the symphonies) could cause the total to surpass the Ring.

There are a couple things I forgot to mention in my earlier post. With Mahler, his symphonies feature a lot of extramusical associations, and gaining an understanding of this aspect of his work can be helpful. However, you may prefer to approach them first as absolute music; if so, you might want to hold off on exploring this angle until later. There are a few documentaries available on DVD (or possibly Youtube). In one of Leonard Bernstein's Norton Lectures (I forget which one) he talks in detail about Mahler's Ninth Symphony. There is also a documentary entitled "The Little Drummer Boy" which features Bernstein discussing Mahler's symphonies. A detailed documentary entitled "What the Universe Tells Me" gives a lot of information on the Third Symphony. There are probably others, and I'm sure there are also good documentaries on Wagner. Books can also be useful if you want to go into greater detail (but probably after you get past the beginner phase). Theodor Adorno wrote a great deal on Mahler; I used his work as one of my sources for a college term paper on Mahler's Third Symphony.


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## superhorn

Since Wagner's operas are REALLY long expect for Der Fliegende Hollander and Das Rheingold , a good idea if you're listening to them complete on CD or watching on DVD would be to give yourself a breather between acts and take little break in between them . This will make them easier to digest .


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## MarkW

I won't get into Wagner, buty as for Mahler -- to present a minority opinion -- there's no good reason not to start getting into his idiom with isolated movements from his symphonies. The Laendler (scherzo) of the First is a wonderful (and tuneful) introduction.
Others might be the Rondo Finale of the Fifth, the Adagio of the Fourth. Then, with increasing grandiousity, the first or second movements of the Fifth, the finale of the Second, the middle movements of the Ninth. Cap it off with the first movement of the Ninth. All are strikingly different -- even different idioms -- but that will plug you into his unique sound world and psychology.

(Okay, I'll try Wagner: If the singing is problematic for you, you can find orchestral collections that include things like the overtures/preludes (Die Meistersinger, Tanhauser, Flying Dutchman, Tristan, Act III of Lohengrin . . .) plus Siegfried's Funeral March, the Dance of the Apprentices from Die Meistersinger, "love music" from Tristan, and the npurely instrumental Siegfried Idyll.)


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## Mad Cat

Wow, I'm overwhelmed with the responses. Thanks! Lots to digest. Maybe this will help others too.

The Bernstein complete symphonies for $21 seems an amazing bargain...I just bought it. A couple of the Wagner samplers, like the overtures and preludes, also appeal to me as a starting point. Once I decide which works I'm most interested in, I can seek out other "definitive" interpretations.

This is the first classical music forum I've joined. I have to say, I'm impressed! Are most of the members here musicians, conductors and students? i'm none of those, just a music lover, though I have played a half dozen instruments since childhood. I never seemed to have the patience to learn to play any of them with competence, though I had the most success with the French horn. That was 3 decades ago


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## Weird Heather

Mad Cat said:


> Wow, I'm overwhelmed with the responses. Thanks! Lots to digest. Maybe this will help others too.
> 
> The Bernstein complete symphonies for $21 seems an amazing bargain...I just bought it. A couple of the Wagner samplers, like the overtures and preludes, also appeal to me as a starting point. Once I decide which works I'm most interested in, I can seek out other "definitive" interpretations.
> 
> This is the first classical music forum I've joined. I have to say, I'm impressed! Are most of the members here musicians, conductors and students? i'm none of those, just a music lover, though I have played a half dozen instruments since childhood. I never seemed to have the patience to learn to play any of them with competence, though I had the most success with the French horn. That was 3 decades ago


The Bernstein set is a very good deal. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be available as a download, but even though I have a general rule against buying CDs because they take up too much space (and I live in southern California where housing is costly and space is at a premium), I made an exception for this one. I haven't regretted it - even though I have many other performances of Mahler's symphonies, some of these became my favorites from the moment I first heard them.

I have noticed that many people here are heavily involved with music as a profession or an educational pursuit. Like you, I'm just a music lover, although I have attempted to learn the viola and violin. When I first played these instruments, it sounded like I was torturing a cat. After a lot of lessons, it sounded like I was torturing a cat somewhat harmoniously. Still, it was well worth it, as it gave me some appreciation for the skill and effort required to produce this music. I still have the instruments, so if I feel like it, I can make some nasty noises. Maybe this weekend, I'll get them out of their cases and see what happens.

Though this thread hasn't been going for very long, it has been interesting to follow it. Mahler and Wagner are two of the most interesting composers I have encountered over my long years of listening to classical music. It takes some effort to get into their music, but it is well worth it. To the original poster (or others in the same situation), I would also recommend checking out Bruckner. His music is of a similar complexity, but his voice is unique. My gateway into Bruckner was Symphony No. 4; I fell in love the first time I heard it, and I would not hesitate to recommend it to anyone who is interested in exploring this expansive late Romantic repertoire. Since then, Symphony No. 8 has become the one that speaks to me most strongly, but I haven't been disappointed in anything I have heard from him - even the humble student symphony (No. 00). And once you get past the beginner phase, check out Hans Rott's Symphony in E Major - a rough and unpolished (but utterly fascinating) student work heavily influenced by Bruckner and Wagner, but looking forward to Mahler.

Another idea for Wagner... the conductor Leopold Stokowski made some arrangements of music from some of Wagner's operas. He generally used the term "symphonic synthesis" for these arrangements. These are generally interesting even though they stray a bit from the original context. If you can handle the low-fidelity sound, his 78s from the 1920s and 1930s with the Philadelphia Orchestra are excellent performances. Later hi-fi and stereo recordings also exist, but I haven't heard many of them (maybe others here can provide some recommendations). For people who aren't quite ready for the original vocal versions but who want to move beyond the usual orchestral excerpts, Stokowski's arrangements might be worth exploring.


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## Rach Man

May I add another suggestion? Michael Tilson Thomas has a group of DVDs that analyze certain works. These are called _Keeping Score_. One of the DVDs analyzes Mahler's 1st symphony. This video, along with others (Berlioz, Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, Shostakovich, and others) are really very good. The video is well produced with great scenes and Thomas is an excellent instructor. He not only tells a great story about each composer, but he explains everything brilliantly.

If you get a chance, either borrow these from the library, or just go out and buy some of these. I think I bought the Mahler edition, first. Then I continued to buy four move of these DVDs. They are really excellent.


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## MarkW

Mad Cat said:


> Wow, I'm overwhelmed with the responses. Thanks! Lots to digest. Maybe this will help others too.
> 
> The Bernstein complete symphonies for $21 seems an amazing bargain...I just bought it. A couple of the Wagner samplers, like the overtures and preludes, also appeal to me as a starting point. Once I decide which works I'm most interested in, I can seek out other "definitive" interpretations.
> 
> This is the first classical music forum I've joined. I have to say, I'm impressed! Are most of the members here musicians, conductors and students? i'm none of those, just a music lover, though I have played a half dozen instruments since childhood. I never seemed to have the patience to learn to play any of them with competence, though I had the most success with the French horn. That was 3 decades ago


Many of us -- perhaps most of us -- are just appreciators who have been at this for a long time. Each with a different perspective and story to tell. And don't get fixated on "definitive" recordings. There are a few recordings that receive general approbation, ut in general CM people are remarkable about developing their own tastes. So may you.


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## Merl

Every Honeck Mahler disc is superb. I'd recommend them all without hesitation but a word of warning - after hearing Honeck's Mahler 1st you'll struggle to find a better one. The account, the recording and the sonics are awesome (and that's coming from someone with more Mahler 1sts than I can shake a stick at).


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## Josquin13

MarkW writes, "And don't get fixated on "definitive" recordings."

Agreed. There's no such thing as a 'definitive' recording, or the last word on a piece of music. Especially with the great musical masterpieces, which require multiple viewpoints to more deeply understand; even if we have a recording of the composer playing or conducting the work. Though occasionally I admit I'll hear a performance that is so fine, I'll question whether I'm wrong to hold such a view.

Robert writes, "Josquin - i very much liked and was thoroughly impressed by Fischer's Mahler 3, that one's well worth having, even if it cannot displace Horenstein's recording on the defunct (?) Unicorn label."

I'll definitely try to hear it, thanks Robert. (Btw, Unicorn-Kanchana no longer produces CDs, not since the 1990s, but the rights to their recordings were bought by Heritage Records in 2017, so their CDs are getting reissued.)

I now realize that I forgot to mention Michael Tilson Thomas's hybrid SACD San Francisco Mahler cycle in my lengthy post above. It too has audiophile sound quality. However, I began the cycle with MTT's Mahler 4th, and thought it was badly conducted. There were too many interpretative touches that sounded odd to me, against the sense of the score--just to be different? So I haven't delved further into the cycle.


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## SixFootScowl

Merl said:


> Every Honeck Mahler disc is superb. I'd recommend them all without hesitation but a word of warning - after hearing Honeck's Mahler 1st you'll struggle to find a better one. The account, the recording and the sonics are awesome (and that's coming from someone with more Mahler 1sts than I can shake a stick at).


Never heard of Honeck before. Love the covers though:


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## Mad Cat

Weird Heather said:


> To the original poster (or others in the same situation), I would also recommend checking out Bruckner. His music is of a similar complexity, but his voice is unique. My gateway into Bruckner was Symphony No. 4; I fell in love the first time I heard it, and I would not hesitate to recommend it to anyone who is interested in exploring this expansive late Romantic repertoire. Since then, Symphony No. 8 has become the one that speaks to me most strongly, but I haven't been disappointed in anything I have heard from him - even the humble student symphony (No. 00).


How interesting...I also became enamored with Bruckner's 4th when I first heard it. It's now my favorite romantic symphony, and has a little bit to do with my interest in Mahler now. I know they're often compared. However, Bruckner's 7th fell flat for me. I just didn't find anything interesting in it. I need to listen to more of him though. Perhaps the 8th next. Eventually I'll get to them all. I suspect it takes a bit longer to reach Bruckner for the same reasons as Mahler/Wagner.


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## Merl

Fritz Kobus said:


> Never heard of Honeck before. Love the covers though:


Get them... All of them. The 1st is so good it nudged Walter's wonderful Columbia disc into 2nd place. They've all received rave reviews and for good reason. They're superb interpretations and recordings. I just hope he and Pittsburgh finish the cycle (although I can live without the 8th, lol). Almost all Honeck"s Exton discs are terrific. His Dvorak 8 and Beethoven 5 & 7 are top of the shop. Desert Island discs.


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## SixFootScowl

Merl said:


> Get them... All of them. The 1st is so good it nudged Walter's wonderful Columbia disc into 2nd place. They've all received rave reviews and for good reason. They're superb interpretations and recordings. I just hope he and Pittsburgh finish the cycle (although I can live without the 8th, lol). Almost all Honeck"s Exton discs are terrific. His Dvorak 8 and Beethoven 5 & 7 are top of the shop. Desert Island discs.


There is also this BBC set, of course with a different orchestra:


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## Heck148

Robert Pickett said:


> The Third is on and off my favourite Mahler symphony, but even I would struggle to call it his best! Structure wise it's insane, but the opening movement is an absolute wonder.


So is the Finale - one of the greatest slow mvts in the entire orchestral repertoire...yes, M3 is a huge, sprawly work - the opening mvt nearly a symphony in itself...


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## CnC Bartok

Am I allowed to suggest that I prefer the Finale of No.3 to the equivalent movement of No.9?


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## Heck148

Robert Pickett said:


> Am I allowed to suggest that I prefer the Finale of No.3 to the equivalent movement of No.9?


Sure, they are both great, wonderful slow mvts...different, tho...#9 is more introverted, resigned....the final minutes diminuendo into exquisite nothingness...#3 ends in a blaze of glory...


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## Oshino

People are talking Mahler much more than Wagner in this post.


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## Merl

Oshino said:


> People are talking Mahler much more than Wagner in this post.


Hmmm, I wonder why? Something always seems to happen when Wagner is discussed.


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## Granate

I think I'm too late for this thread. Unfortunately these two composers need the patience of the listener, and in the case of Wagner, previously watching the operas before.

I would go from No.1 to No.10 for Mahler, although you could choose to start with Das Lied von der Erde first. Not a lot of orchestra or conducting but meaningful singing.

For me in Wagner, the answer for the first experience is easy: Lohengrin. If you enjoyed the singing, try Tännhäuser. If you enjoyed the Minnesanger's plot, go for Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg. If you could only bear an hour watching it, I'd build you a monument, but not many people agree with me, yikes. Then it would be time to try the Ring operas and Die Fliegende Holländer. To finish off, go for the presumably deepest operas of the composer: Tristan und Isolde and Parsifal.

As for begginner recordings, I second some members with Kubelík's Mahler (studio) and Bayreuth 60s for Wagner:



















B00004SA86










B00159679S










B000FVHGZG​


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## DavidA

Granate said:


> I think I'm too late for this thread. Unfortunately these two composers need the patience of the listener, and in the case of Wagner, previously watching the operas before.
> 
> I would go from No.1 to No.10 for Mahler, although you could choose to start with *Das Lied von der Erde first. Not a lot of orchestra or conducting but meaningful singing.*


I would question that


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## Granate

DavidA said:


> I would question that


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## Marc

Larkenfield said:


> With Mahler, I'd start at the beginning with Symphony No. 1 and No. 2 and go through them in order, though you're probably going to hear opinions to the contrary on that. I'd also start with the recordings of Bruno Walter and Otto Klemperer, both of whom knew Mahler personally and are likely more idiomatic in sound and approach than the conductors who came after them; so you're getting performance close to the source. [...]


But even though Walter and Klemperer are both close to the source... they're also completely different. 

Another option of being close to the source: begin with Mahler 4 conducted by Mengelberg. Of all the conductors Mahler heard, he rated Mengelberg the highest.









(_Mengelberg with Alma, 1912_)


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## SixFootScowl

Oshino said:


> People are talking Mahler much more than Wagner in this post.


I suspect that it relates to the majority of TC members being into instrumental, not opera.


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## SixFootScowl

Granate said:


> ​




Ah, what a nice set. I could not resist after I found a VG one for $15 shipped. Thanks for posting it.​


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## conductorx

Strat with the Mahler Symphonies!!!! They are just awesome to hear. Maybe on youtube with a good performance!!!
They are a lot of fun!


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## vgvalkyrie

The only 3rd I had on CD was in the complete Solti set (and honestly, I only got that because Helge Dernesch was singing the alto, and I was trying to get all her recorded works (loved her as Karajan's Isolde). But I simply couldn't get into the 3rd at all, Dernesch or no Dernesch. I tried and I tried, and simply couldn't get it. Years later, I listened to the Abbado 3rd. Oh my, so that's it. Now, I think it's my favourite Mahler symphony. I also like the later Bernstein with the New York Phil (and an even better Bernstein, on YouTube, with the Vienna Phil. Sadly, I still don't like the Solti 3rd. It just seems to fall over itself and I can't grasp the music. That's probably me, but I don't have anyone else… (Love Solti's Ring, so it's nothing against him, just against his Mahler 3)


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## Larkenfield

For a legendary performance of the Mahler 3rd, don't forget Horenstein's 1970 recording with the LSO. Copies have been hard to come by over the years, so a number of listeners may not have heard it. But it can be found in the Brilliant Classics Mahler box set. As much as I like Bernstein's, I like Horenstein's version even better, especially the monumental first movement. It's still a great personal favorite.


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## CnC Bartok

Horenstein's Third is a desert island disc! 

Unfortunately my experience with getting hold of it was not the most straightforward. First got it on download, which was about as underwhelming as one can imagine. What's all the fuss about? The download is transferred at a very low volume level, alas, and the details non-existant almost.
Then I found a cheap CD version, the original Unicorn issue, albeit covered in library stickers and with the booklet missing. Worth every penny, just a wonderful, powerful, loving rendition of debatably my favourite Mahler symphony.


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## Star

I'd begin Mahler with the 1st symphony (cond Kubelik) and Das Lied von Der Erde (cond Klemperer or Walter)

I wouldn't bother with Wagner myself even though Mahler conducted the stuff.


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## SixFootScowl

Star said:


> I'd begin Mahler with the 1st symphony (cond Kubelik) and Das Lied von Der Erde (cond Klemperer or Walter)
> 
> I wouldn't bother with Wagner myself even though Mahler *conducted the stuff*.


That is a pretty demeaning way to refer to Wagner's music. You've probably offended half the membership of TalkClassical with that statement.


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## Granate

Fritz Kobus said:


> That is a pretty demeaning way to refer to Wagner's music. You've probably offended half the membership of TalkClassical with that statement.


Yeah, sometimes I wish I had the courage to go around Eurovision forums writing how much I dislike Conchita Wurst's music and especially her victory in the 2014 Contest. And then I think, why should I bother to go play whack-a-mole with my irrelevant opinion? Make their fans spend time arguing in the name of controversy for my own amusement?


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## les24preludes

If the OP still doesn't like vocal music, then Wagner will require quite a shift. He wrote some of the greatest vocal music ever, and even arguably the greatest operas of all time. Start with Meistersinger, Solti's later recording. Then on to Gotterdammerung, again Solti. And finally Parsifal, which has to be Boulez. Some will argue for the "spiritual" recordings of Knappertsbusch, Karajan et al but for me Boulez eclipses all those older and slower recordings. 

For me Mahler is going down a level, and not a composer I listen a lot to. He has a rather creepy mix of beauty and grandiosity and conjures up a kind of alternately pompous and depressive German underworld with overtones of Kurt Weill. Mahler and Bernstein together pile on the self-indulgence to the point where it can become glutinous. So I go for the cooler versions such as Gielen when I take an occasional trip down that dark path. The 4th Symphony is a good place to start (and possibly finish...).


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## Larkenfield

_Boulez_ happened to record all the Mahler Symphonies - quite a revelation - and they are the opposite of Bernstein's more self-indulgent approach that he recorded in Europe. (But the Sony recordings with the NYP are not dark and sappy, IMO). Evidently, Boulez felt that the composer was not a "step down," and these are amazing, streamlined and modern recordings without sacrificing quality or meaning. Mahler has too often been portrayed as a neurotic emotional basket case when he was a man of tremendous resilience despite the many deaths, personal losses and health problems he experienced before his time ran out. The Boulez performances of No. 1, 6 and 7 are particularly good. The OP didn't start this thread to be discouraged from either composer; he's already interested.


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## CnC Bartok

Boulez's Mahler is A view of the composer, but not the only one. 

However, I will admit I would go even further than Lark in praising them, they are remarkably refreshing, and the clarity of the orchestration - one of Mahler's strong points I'd say - is the revelation. Some would describe it as "cold Mahler", I'd prefer to hear it being categorised as "Mahler without the syrup". The issue of over-interpreting Mahler, which includes the obsession with his neurotic side (which does him no favours), means I am not a fan of Bernstein**, even if I know damned well he could conduct and had strong and well-founded rules of engagement!

Having listened to quite a bit of this composer over the years (!!) I know what I like, and I have ended up preferring "Mahler-Direkt", and while I very much admire Boulez, and on the other hand would not be without some of the more indulgent recordings I have here and there (20+ cycles I am ashamed to say, plus many a one-off recording), the conductor I tend to go back to again and again is Rafael Kubelik. He is not heart-on-sleeve, he's not indulgent, he's actually quite fast with his tempos too. But there are few conductors who could find and bring out the inner voices of an orchestra like Kubelik, his sense of balance was wondrous. Mahler knew how to orchestrate (understatement of the decade!), and even "improved" the orchestration of composers like Schumann, Beethoven and Wagner, often because the score's balance would not suit the concert venue concerned, so I think this is a seriously important aspect of his music. Kudos to Kubelik, to Boulez, and to a slightly lesser extent to Bertini and Tennstedt!

I have just invested in Michael Gielen's cycle; a conductor I like very much, I suspect he'll make me very happy indeed?

** Sorry, Heck!


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## chalkpie

Robert Pickett said:


> I have just invested in Michael Gielen's cycle; a conductor I like very much, I suspect he'll make me very happy indeed?


I find that Gielen is not always that many steps away from Boulez' style of interpreting these masterpieces. The paying and sound is also great, so you won't be sorry. I'm sure not every single moment of everything will float your boat, but that's the deal with complete sets as you know.


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## CnC Bartok

I don't have a huge amount of Gielen in my collection, but I really do like his way with Schoenberg, there's a proper affinity there. He humanises his music (perhaps more so than Boulez?) without romanticising it. I don't find him cold in such music, maybe others do, but as afar as I am concerned, Schoenberg IS about human emotion, not just being clever with clever rules! Gielen's Moses und Aron (NB 12 (not 13) letters only!) is quite an old recording, but it's chillingly emotion-packed!

Don't worry, I am not expecting a 100% success rate with this set. I find it very very hard to choose outright favourite recordings of any Mahler piece, there are far too many excellent performances out there! Weirdly one work I am looking forward to hearing in Gielen's set, for which I do have a favourite, is the Wunderhorn Songs. Can these rival Szell and co.???


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## San Antone

For someone seeking an introduction to Mahler, I'd suggest the _Rückert-Lieder_ before delving into the symphonies. As for Wagner, it's harder, but I'd guess _Tristan und Isolde_ might be a good place to start.


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## Merl

I must admit that I've never got on with Boulez's Mahler. I don't dislike it but it just doesn't speak to me like Tennstedt does (for example).


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## Biwa

Mad Cat said:


> I've been enjoying classical music for about 25 years now but I've yet to explore Mahler or Wagner. I've only heard snippets of some of their orchestral works.
> 
> Which of the Mahler symphonies would be a good place to start?
> 
> Where to start with Wagner? Ring cycle?
> 
> I'm not a fan of choral works, so would like to concentrate on the instrumental works, at least to start.
> 
> Recommendations on specific recordings would be most welcome as well. *Especially in multichannel*, though stereo is fine too.


Wagner's operas are available on multichannel SACDs.

Marek Janowski with the Radio Symphony Orchestra of Berlin offer solid preformances of most of Wagner's operas. They are available individually or in box sets.

Valery Gergiev and the Mariinsky Orchestra also offer fine performances of some of Wagner's operas.

For Mahler, Claudio Abbado and the Lucerne Festival Orchestra give wonderful performances in Hirez 5.1 surround sound. Symphonies 1-7 are available on Bluray set.

Have fun! :tiphat:


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## GeorgeMcW

My introduction to Mahler was with no. 6 when i was 14 and i was immediately hooked, and that was 20+ years ago. I love them all - the 8th is probably the only one I don't listen to as often, but maybe that's coz I haven't found a recording I love. Like no. 3 for example: I heard Zubin Mehta perform this in a concert and thought it wasn't for me. Then when I heard Abbado's Berlin Phil recording (live at the RFH 1999), it totally stunned me. Abbado remains my favourite Mahler conductor. 

As for Wagner, I would start with the orchestral preludes - like the Tristan prelude, or the Liebestod, or Parsifal prelude, and see what you think of Wagner's harmonic language.


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## Andrew Kenneth

With Mahler start with the Gergiev LSO (London Symphony Orchestra) SACD box.
It's in great sound (SACD), Gergiev conducts at a brisk clip & this set won't break the bank. (LSO is not an expensive label)
Before owning this set I had collected the Bernstein (DG) recordings and due to Bernstein slower tempi I never quite was able to liked Mahler's music. Getting the Gergiev set made it possible for me to listen to Mahler's symphonies from beginning to end and I have since collected numerous other recordings of his symphonies, song-cyles & Das Lied. (ie. Inbal (Denon); Inbal (Exton - 1st cycle); Inbal - (Exton 2nd cycle) & recordings by Mehta, Honeck, Sieghart, Oramo, Stenz, Jansons, Boulez, Abbado, ...)

Concerning Wagner I'd like to steer you towards the opera house or you could start by visiting your local library in order to score a number of Wagner blu-ray's (or dvd's) Watching the action unfold will get you a better idea of what this composer is about.
(You-tube is also an easy way to sample various available productions; Depending on your personal likes/dislikes you might prefer more traditional productions or the more high concept newer ones;

Giving priority to the music strikes me as striving to appreciate Star Wars by merely listening to the John William soundtracks without taking the effort to watch the films.


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## Josquin13

I see my earlier post on this thread was much too long, with too many recommendations. Rethinking my previous post a bit, and checking out You Tube, here's a better Wagner starter kit:

A. Wagner:

1. Overtures and Preludes--Hans Knappertsbusch and Otto Klemperer. I think it's crucially important to begin with conductors that knew how to conduct Wagner. If you start with modern DVDs, for example, you won't likely hear comparable Wagner conducting.

Parsifal Overture (Knappertsbusch): 




Tristan und Isolde Prelude to Act 1 (Knappertsbusch): 




Overtures, Preludes (Klemperer): 




2. Lohengrin (the full opera): Lohengrin and Tristan und Isolde are good operas to start with. Eugen Jochum's Lohengrin from Bayreuth in 1954 is remarkable (what a pity Jochum never recorded Lohengrin, Parsifal, and Tristan und Isolde in the studio, as he conducted those operas as well as anyone, in my view):

Lohengrin, Bayeuth 1954 (Windgassen, Nilsson, Varnay, conductor Eugen Jochum): 




A highly recommendable alternative to Jochum's live account is a recording from the Vienna Philharmonic & conductor Rudolf Kempe (another first rate Wagner conductor), with singers Jess Thomas and Elisabeth Grümmer: https://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Lohen...241291&sr=1-1&keywords=kempe+wagner+lohengrin

3. Tristan und Isolde: While there are several classic mono recordings of Tristan from conductors Fürtwangler, Knappertsbusch, and Reiner, sound quality is important with this opera, especially at the rapturous end of the opera; so, with that in mind, I'd recommend starting with conductor Carlos Kleiber's Staatskapelle Dresden recording. While there are arguably better Tristans on record than tenor René Kollo, I'm a big fan of Margaret Price's Isolde, preferring her to Birgit Nilsson on record. However, the real star of this recording is the orchestra itself, as I've never heard better or more in tune orchestral playing in a Wagner opera than by the Staatskapelle Dresden. It's mind blowing, and the blending of Price's gorgeous voice (also remarkably in tune) with the phenomenal playing of the Dresdeners is one of the highlights of my Wagner collection:






For a contrasting view of Tristan, I'd recommend the conducting of Sir Reginald Goodall*, whose approach to Tristan is radically different from Kleiber's. There is a Decca Goodall recording with Linda Ester Gray and John Mitchinson in the title roles that's excellent: https://www.amazon.com/Reginald-Goo...&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=wagner+goodall+decca. Or, you can listen to Goodall's live Tristan recorded at the English National Opera in 1981 (sung in English): 




*Note that in the 1930s Goodall was a Nazi sympathizer and later a holocaust denier (which he refered to as a "BBC Jewish plot"), and he also supported and joined the British Union of Fascists, so you may wish to avoid his Wagner conducting on account of his ugly politics.

Here's an interesting interview with Goodall, conducted by Bruce Duffie:
http://www.bruceduffie.com/goodall.html

From there, you might then move on to Sir Georg Solti's Tannhäuser, Knappertsbusch's Parsifal (&/or Karajan's on DG), and the Ring cycle. Conductor Rafael Kubelik's recordings of Lohengrin, Parsifal, and Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg are also very worthwhile.

Once more, I've enjoyed this two disc "Essential Wagner" set, which you can hear for free! if you have Amazon Prime: https://www.amazon.com/Twilight-God...p3-albums-bar-strip-0&keywords=kubelik+wagner

B. Mahler:

Secondly, here's my (reduced) recommended Mahler starter kit:

1. Symphony no. 1 (Kubelik and Giulini--for two contrasting views of Mahler's 1st):









2. Mahler's 2nd Symphony, "Resurrection": Bernstein's Ely Cathedral performance is one of the most exciting Mahler 2nd's I know in the finale, and for some reason, it sounds better on DVD than CD: 




3. Mahler 5 (here's the option of three contrasting 5ths, from conductors Segerstam, Haitink, and Kubelik. Though at some point you might want to also hear Bruno Walter's mono 5th, and Gunther Herbig's excellent 5th too):

Segerstam:

















Haitink: 



Kubelik: 




4. Mahler 7th Symphony, "Song of the Night" (Bernstein, 1965, New York Philharmonic):





5. Mahler 9th--along with Beethoven's 9th (& several others, such as the Sibelius 5th & 7th), this is arguably one of the greatest symphonies ever composed. Here are four contrasting versions--from conductors Giulini, Barbirolli, Ancerl, and Chailly (on hybrid SACD, my favorite Mahler 9th in audiophile sound!). I'm also keen on Bernstein's 1st recording in New York from the 1960s, but it's not on You Tube:


















6. Essential Mahler listening: Dame Janet Baker singing Mahler's three beautiful orchestral song cycles-- Kindertotenlieder, Rückert lieder, and Songs of a Wayfarer, with Sir John Barbirolli conducting:














7. Three recommendable Mahler box sets:

a. Bernstein's 1st New York cycle in excellent DSD remasters (IMO, Bernstein's early 1960s Mahler is often more tightly knit and dynamic, & riveting, than his more loosely, less precisely conducted and sometimes arguably wayward Mahler in Vienna: https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Compl...pID=518pdEsudUL&preST=_SX300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

b. Haitink's excellent but incomplete live Concertgebouw cycle from the 1980s: https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symph...247697&sr=1-1&keywords=mahler+haitink+matinee

c. The 150 Anniversary EMI box set: https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-150th...pID=61V8e00GoNL&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

8. Finally, for a 'state of the art' audiophile Mahler cycle 1-9--since Mahler's symphonies are extremely difficult to record well, and sound enigneering is crucially important in this music, given the highly detailed orchestration--I'd recommend conductor Zdenek Macal's cycle with the Czech Philharmonic on the Japanese Exton label (on hybrid SACD). In addition to Riccardo Chailly's Mahler 3rd & 9th on Decca hybrid SACDs (the highlights of Chailly's cycle, IMO), Macal's Exton recordings take the listener as close to being in the concert hall as any Mahler cycle I know (though I've not heard any of Manfred Honeck's Mahler on the same label, which may be in the same class, sound-wise):

https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symph...&qid=1531248008&sr=1-10&keywords=macal+mahler
https://www.amazon.com/Macal-Czech-...pID=51EqwUGyOEL&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch
https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symph...8&qid=1531248008&sr=1-3&keywords=macal+mahler
https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symph...8&qid=1531248008&sr=1-7&keywords=macal+mahler
https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Zdene...248325&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=macal+mahler+9

I see I've gone on longer than I intended, once again (I find it difficult to give both Mahler and Wagner recommendations together, and do so succinctly!). Oh well... My two cents.


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## Josquin13

I wanted to clarify something from my above post, which I didn't realize when I wrote it yesterday. The You Tube performance that I linked to of Riccardo Chailly's Mahler 9th isn't his recording with the Concertgebouw Orchestra of Amsterdam, as I had thought, but a more recent live performance from Chailly with the Gewandhaus Orchestra of Leipzig. While I like the Concertgebouw 9th very much, upon newly listening to Chailly's Leipzig 9th, I think it may be even better. Now I'm wondering if that's true of the whole Leipzig cycle? versus his Amsterdam cycle; which unfortunately is only available, I gather, on blu-ray discs (I may have to buy a blu-ray player now ...):

https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symph...332692&sr=8-7&keywords=chailly+mahler+leipzig


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## Alkan

Josquin13 said:


> I see I've gone on longer than I intended, once again (I find it difficult to give both Mahler and Wagner recommendations together, and do so succinctly!). Oh well... My two cents.


Thanks Josquin13 for this excellent post. Like the OP, I have never taken to Mahler, also don't care for vocals as part of a symphony. When I first found TC a couple of months ago, I was struck by how much Mahler love there is out there. So I figure that I will try hard to put aside my earlier judgements and find the value that others are seeing. I have been using the links in your post as a guide. Good news! I am enjoying symphonies 1 and 5 very much. Tomorrow the vocals (maybe)


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## SixFootScowl

Alkan said:


> Thanks Josquin13 for this excellent post. Like the OP, I have never taken to Mahler, also don't care for vocals as part of a symphony. When I first found TC a couple of months ago, I was struck by how much Mahler love there is out there. So I figure that I will try hard to put aside my earlier judgements and find the value that others are seeing. I have been using the links in your post as a guide. Good news! *I am enjoying symphonies 1 and 5 very much.* Tomorrow the vocals (maybe)


Those were my first two Mahler symphonies. I heard Mahler 1 in a concert that I attended not for Mahler (whom was just some composer to me at the time) but for a Beethoven symphony. But I did enjoy that Mahler symphony and some months later I get a bug for Mahler. I had a Mahler 5 in my collection that was from a garage sale. I spun it and really liked it, so ordered a complete Mahler symphony set. I can't say what my favorites are and some are harder to digest, such as Mahler 8 (Symphony of a Thousand). but I think 6 and 7 are pretty good places to go after 1 and 5.


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## Merl

Fritz Kobus said:


> I can't say what my favorites are and some are harder to digest, such as Mahler 8 (Symphony of a Thousand)......./QUOTE]
> 
> I wish I could get on with Mahler's 8th but, try as I might, I really can't stand it. I've tried every recommended and plenty of non-recommended performances but it still does absolutely nowt for me. I'm afraid it's staying in the same box as Elgar's symphonies and Tchaikovsky's Manfred for now. I've not averse to singing in symphonies (eg Mahler's 2nd) but that 8th is just too much for me. Just sounds like a choir of warbling nonsense to these ears.


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## Brahmsian Colors

With Wagner: Tannhauser and Die Meistersinger Overtures Klemperer/Philharmonia Orchestra

With Mahler: Symphony No. 4 Kletzki/Philharmonia Orchestra or Tennstedt/London Philharmonic


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## ufrasa

I became enamored with Bruckner's 4th when I first heard it. It's now my favorite romantic symphony, and has a little bit to do with my interest in Mahler now. I know they're often compared. However, Bruckner's 7th fell flat for me.


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## bravenewworld

I suppose my own sensibilities are more inclined in the Romantic than the Contemporary direction, hence my favourite Mahler symphonies are 1,2,3,4,5 and the 3rd movement of 6. I trust I'll fall in love with the rest in the fullness of time. Same with Wagner - I've listened properly to none (yet) and so make no pretensions of expertise in that regard.

For me, it was Mahler's 1st with which I was first enamoured. The 2nd movement sounded pleasant to my ears and kept me listening, and then the more nuanced 1st, 3rd and (my favourite, unpopular as it is) 4th movements revealed themselves to me. I think with Mahler one must remember that the music is very visual - Mahler paints pictures in the mind with his music. You won't as often find yourself tapping your foot as with, say, Bach's BWV 1. The rewards come from elsewhere.

I actually found Mahler easiest to appreciate when outside, especially his earlier symphonies. That's how I came to appreciate the beauty more easily. Perhaps the same could apply for the O.P.

As for recordings, I'm afraid it's fairly sparse. I have Slatkin's 1st and the complete Bernstein set.



ufrasa said:


> I became enamored with Bruckner's 4th when I first heard it. It's now my favorite romantic symphony, and has a little bit to do with my interest in Mahler now. I know they're often compared. However, Bruckner's 7th fell flat for me.


Interesting! It was Bruckner 7 which attracted me most - immediately after first appreciating Mahler. The musical style is, however, clearly very different to Mahler's early symphonies (as I mentioned above, I cannot speak for 7 onwards).


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## Alkan

Fritz Kobus said:


> I can't say what my favorites are and some are harder to digest, such as Mahler 8 (Symphony of a Thousand). but I think 6 and 7 are pretty good places to go after 1 and 5.


Thank you Fritz Kobus for the suggestions. I didn't see any links for the 6th anywhere in this thread, so I am currently listening to this Bernstein performance: 




I am really impressed with Mahler's inventiveness in general. If there is a better link for the 6th I'd be eager to listen to it as well.

I also listened to the 7th, the Bernstein recording suggested by Josquin13. I liked the music, except the last movement was less enjoyable. I will give it another listen.

As I understand it, symphonies 2-4 and 8 are the works with vocal/choral parts. Perhaps I am ready to tackle the 9th now.

Mahler wrote a 10th? Is it purely instrumental?


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## Tallisman

Merl said:


> I must admit that I've never got on with Boulez's Mahler.


The King of the Bloodless Interpretation


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## Tallisman

Alkan said:


> Mahler wrote a 10th? Is it purely instrumental?


Incomplete. He only completed the 1st movement, which is highly regarded and really quite good. Obviously there have been completions, but I'm always highly sceptical of those types of things.


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## Tallisman

In answer to OP, best place to start is doubtless the 2nd. Yes, on the surface the 4th is more 'pleasing', but it's more interesting in the context of the earlier three. 2 is on the whole just a resounding success and really exciting. 1 and 2 are a good bet. From there, you've probably got a taste for the Mahler style or not. But that's not to say give up if you don't like 1 and 2.


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## Larkenfield

I continue to recommend that listeners take the Mahler symphonies in order, at least from 1 to 5, the only requirement being the investment in time, then go to 9, 6, 7, and 8. Mahler is laying the foundation in his 1st Symphony for what's to come with the others and it's possible to see his development from one to the next. The 3rd is relatively long but very rewarding. No. 6 and 7 represent a shift in his thinking and are perhaps more turbulent and intense in the expression of his ideas, but often end up becoming favorites in the end. No. 8 is the hardest to find a satisfying recording, IMO, because too often the singers are performing at the top of their vocal range and this can become fatiguing for the listener. But Dudamel's performance with the Simon Bolivar Orchestra is out of this world... The best I've ever heard and a monumental experience. This was Mahler's most successful symphony in his lifetime and is highly positive in nature even if the size of the chorus and orchestra can be overwhelming to hear. Stay with hunting for a performance that works. I consider the Mahler symphonies as rewarding beyond all measure if one has the patience for them. A good performance can make all the difference in the world, and the Bernstein set with the NYP can be a good place to start. But I've never known anyone who loves Mahler to be satisfied with just one performance of each symphony. There's a universe out there.


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## Merl

Larkenfield said:


> But I've never known anyone who loves Mahler to be satisfied with just one performance of each symphony. There's a universe out there.


Couldnt agree more.


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## Kollwitz

Definitely agree about the merits of exploring different performances. Mahler 5 was the first symphony I really listened to, after going to a live performance, essentially out of curiosity. After being intrigued by it I bought the Barshai recording recommended in Tony Duggan's survey, listened to it many times and started exploring other performances on YouTube. Listening to different interpretations, from Bernstein to Wyn Morris, Karajan to Shipway and much more revealed so much about different aspects of the symphony. I've continued this approach with other symphonies: try to find a highly recommended recording, listen to it quite a few times, then try others. With Mahler 6 I went through Jansons, Sanderling, Chailly, Barbirolli and Abbado. Recognising differences between recordings seems to help me understand the music better and enjoy it more.

Regarding getting into Wagner, I found that after having a go at Tristan and Isolde with really falling for it, having another go after months of heavy Bruckner listening made it it immediately pleasurable and rewarding. I've now moved on to Das Rheingold, which is amazing, and am looking forward to beginning Die Walkure in a week or two. Have listened to the prelude to Parsifal quite a few times as well and can't wait to explore that.

For both Mahler and Wagner I think there's merit to an 'in at the deep end' approach. I don't think I'd have fallen for Mahler if I'd started with 4. The darkness and visceral thrill of the first two movements of 5 really drew me in. 6 and 9 sealed the deal. Similarly, I'd rather start with the most Wagnerian works than the supposedly more 'accessible' earlier operas.


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