# Bruckner's Fifth Symphony: WTF?!? Someone please help!



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Here's what I would sound like if I were as inflexible and as impatient as those vocal critics who 'don't understand' modern 'art' music. See if you can now understand what an inadequate response this must sound like to someone who likes and understands Bruckner, which, by the way, I do.

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Bruckner's Fifth Symphony:

Click to expand...

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> gigantic, sprawling, massive, wandering, unfocussed...or is it just me? The whole thing seems structurally unstable, like a cheeseburger stacked too high, that drips all over your lap. I've had better luck getting 'musical meaning' out of Boulez piano sonatas!
> This Bruckner seems like a series of rather unrelated tonal fragments. My attention span is not concentrated enough to keep track of this un-rhythmic, lugubrious, long-winded narrative of...what? There seems to be dramatic gesture, when the music gets louder, but where are the melodies? I hear little sequential ideas, but they're like spiraling particles that lead nowhere, disappearing into themselves. Can someone please tell me what this music is supposed to mean, and why it should have the right to exist, especially in this form, which I thought was for music that appeals to everyone. Apparently not.


Okay, Bruckner fans, Wagnerians, and tonalists,* unite! *and react to this.


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## Serge (Mar 25, 2010)

Order taken in stripes! White Stripes, that is!


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> Here's what I would sound like if I were as inflexible and as impatient as those vocal critics who 'don't understand' modern 'art' music. See if you can now understand what an inadequate response this must sound like to someone who likes and understands Bruckner, which, by the way, I do.


But for someone who dislikes Bruckner, what do you think an _adequate_ response would be?


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Nereffid said:


> But for someone who dislikes Bruckner, what do you think an _adequate_ response would be?


Mere non-drama queen boredom, i.e. no more than a yawn in passing.


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## Serge (Mar 25, 2010)

Here's my united response: Concentrate! Work on yourself! Even relax, maybe... Take a hot tub!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I've always had trouble with the Fifth. I find it the dullest of Bruckner's symphonies and a real trial to sit through.
Other than that, it's pretty good.


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

"Where are all the melodies?" How many of Bruckner's first critics asked THAT tired question?


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

I can't answer because Bruckner has never spoken to me--a fact I place squarely at the interface between the two of us, and not fundamentally a fault of either of us individually.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Bruckner's Fifth is my favorite of his symphonies (or tied with the Eighth), go figure.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

hpowders said:


> I've always had trouble with the Fifth. I find it the dullest of Bruckner's symphonies and a real trial to sit through.
> Other than that, it's pretty good.


It's one of the best ones imo.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

It is in the middle of my top 5: 9,8,*5*,7, 6.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

A terrorist torturer could conceivably order a pretty bad performance of Bruckner's Fifth to play for quick confessions of the enemy.
Unless, they already possess the bad Webern performances. 

It's a joke. Lighten up.


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2014)

You first!

(Telling someone to "lighten up" is a sure sign that you're being way too "heavy" yourself. Certainly way too controlling.)


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Put Dohnanyi's version on. Nothing dull about that. Like having your ears syringed.


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2014)

millionrainbows said:


> Here's what I would sound like if I were


...the person who wrote this.

But you are, aren't you? You don't say who wrote this, and the only result I get from a Google search is you.

On my admittedly limited listening to Bruckner, I'd agree, but maybe I'll 'get it' if I persevere - though it's a bit like wanting to persevere with avocado - why keep eating something that you don;t enjoy and see no possible future where you might?


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> See if you can now understand what an inadequate response this must sound like to someone who likes and understands Bruckner


It doesn't even sound adequate to some of us who understand yet intensely dislike Bruckner.


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## Alfacharger (Dec 6, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> Here's what I would sound like if I were as inflexible and as impatient as those vocal critics who 'don't understand' modern 'art' music. See if you can now understand what an inadequate response this must sound like to someone who likes and understands Bruckner, which, by the way, I do.
> 
> *
> 
> Okay, Bruckner fans, Wagnerians, and tonalists, unite! and react to this.*


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Sounds like they are listening to the wrong version!








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## Guest (Mar 21, 2014)

Alfacharger said:


> Sounds like they are listening to the wrong version!


Ooh, that looks interesting, Alfacharger. I don't have the Schalk version (score or CD). Did he (Schalk) make many changes/cuts?


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## Alfacharger (Dec 6, 2013)

TalkingHead said:


> Ooh, that looks interesting, Alfacharger. I don't have the Schalk version (score or CD). Did he (Schalk) make many changes/cuts?


From Wikipedia.

1896 first published version (Schalk)[edit]
The first published version (which was also the version heard at the work's premiere) was edited by Franz Schalk. It is unclear exactly how much of the difference between the 1878 and 1896 versions was due to Bruckner and how much to Schalk, but it is generally agreed that most of the changes were unapproved by Bruckner and inauthentic. Schalk generally made Bruckner's music sound more Wagnerian, mainly by means of reorchestration. The most obvious differences occur in the coda of the Finale. In the last few pages, Schalk adds triangle and cymbals, and an offstage brass band. Schalk also made several cuts, mostly in the Finale.

A sample from the coda of the finale. This was the performed version of the symphony for decades.


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2014)

Thanks for the link, Alfacharger. I look forward to having a little chat with Joe Schalk whilst we both burn in hell.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I'm crazy about the Bruckner 5th ,but I love your comparison to a cheeseburger that's piled
too high ! Keep listening to it, and it just might click . There's no better performance IMHO
than Karaan/BPO on DG , but I'm not sure if it's currently available singly . But getting his set
of all nine with the BPO would be a very good investment .


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## julianoq (Jan 29, 2013)

I am also in the "love Bruckner's 5th" team. It took me some time to appreciate Bruckner, but once I started with the 4th and 7th the others went naturally. The 5th was a favorite from the first listen. The coda in the finale is amazing. My favorite performance is from Sinopoli with the Staatskapelle Dresden. I listened to Celibidache's performance on YouTube a few times and it is also very enjoyable, but I don't return to it as often.

The 5th is tied with the 8th and 9th as my favorites of Bruckner at this moment.


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