# Bruckner not-xor Elgar



## BoggyB (May 6, 2016)

Bruckner and Elgar: two of my top four composers. Is there anyone here who likes one but not the other? If so, could you offer some explanation why?


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

A simple answer from me: Bruckner rings my chimes, and Elgar doesn't (at least very much).


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## Guest (Sep 15, 2016)

^ Agree with the Manx on this one. At the risk of bringing opprobrium on my (Talking) head, I find Bruckner to be "universal" and Elgar to be "parochial".


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

TalkingHead said:


> ^ Agree with the Manx on this one. At the risk of bringing opprobrium on my (Talking) head, I find Bruckner to be "universal" and Elgar to be "parochial".


No opprobrium (jeez, what a great word), but I knew someone who disliked Bruckner for what he heard as Teutonic ponderousness and "martial" rigidity, and I suppose that made Bruckner parochial for him. I'm more inclined to agree with you, but what's parochial may depend on where your base of operations is and which pieces you're listening to. I like both composers; Elgar at his best - the first symphony, the piano quintet, the cello concerto, etc. - doesn't feel parochial to me. I'd say merely that Bruckner is more abstract and less sentimental, intending neither term as disparagement.


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## Guest (Sep 15, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> No opprobrium (jeez, what a great word), but I knew someone who disliked Bruckner for what he heard as *Teutonic ponderousness* and "martial" rigidity, and I suppose that made Bruckner parochial for him. I'm more inclined to agree with you, *but what's parochial may depend on where your base of operations is* and which pieces you're listening to. I like both composers; Elgar at his best - the first symphony, the piano quintet, *the cello concerto*, etc. - doesn't feel parochial to me. I'd say merely that Bruckner is more abstract and less sentimental, intending neither term as disparagement.


For the love of Vishnu, Woodduck, let's not get into *Teutonic ponderousness* - I'm not going down that road, with you, thank you very much! For the second point, agreed, one's parochialism is another person's exotic country. As to the third point: please, I'm a 'cellist and whilst I'm able to more or less "hack my way through" this "brown sauce of a concerto" I really can pass on it. And now, let the opprobrium come... Will you be my agent on this one?


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

I have struggled with Elgar over the years, bought a number of discs that I don't quite like, some that I do, quite, like but none that I am very enthusiastic about.

The Record Guide (1955) wrote:



> Boastful self-confidence, emotional vulgarity, material extravagance, a ruthless philistinism expressed in tasteless architecture and every kind of expensive yet hideous accessory: such features of a late phase of Imperial England are faithfully reflected in Elgar's larger works and are apt to prove indigestible today. But if it is difficult to overlook the bombastic, the sentimental, and the trivial elements in his music, the effort to do so should nevertheless be made, for the sake of the many inspired pages, the power and eloquence and lofty pathos, of Elgar's best work. ... Anyone who doubts the fact of Elgar's genius should take the first opportunity of hearing The Dream of Gerontius, which remains his masterpiece, as it is his largest and perhaps most deeply felt work; the symphonic study, Falstaff; the Introduction and Allegro for Strings; the Enigma Variations; and the Violoncello Concerto.


I like Bruckner without reservation, by contrast: there's just something about the way he builds a movement - "beginning mysteriously and climbing slowly with fragments of the first theme to the gigantic full statement of that theme...the finale with a grand culminating hymn is a feature of almost every Bruckner symphony"


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## Guest (Sep 15, 2016)

TurnaboutVox said:


> [...] There's just something about the way he builds a movement - "*beginning mysteriously and climbing slowly with fragments of the first theme to the gigantic full statement of that theme...the finale with a grand culminating hymn* is a feature of almost every Bruckner symphony"


Sounds like good sex to me, Turncoat! (A joke misspelling of TV's name; please don't moderate!)


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

TalkingHead said:


> Sounds like good sex to me, Turncoat! (A joke misspelling of TV's name; please don't moderate!)


I don't object, but what does it signify? Do you mean that I have unpatriotically sided with Bruckner over Elgar? But I'm Scots, mon, nae English!

However, TH, I'm interested to learn that you incorporate hymns into your.......


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

"Boastful self-confidence, emotional vulgarity, material extravagance, a ruthless philistinism expressed in tasteless architecture and every kind of expensive yet hideous accessory: such features of a late phase of Imperial England are faithfully reflected in Elgar's larger works..."

Gosh, I had no idea. But then, after years of loving Wagner's music I learned from critics that militant nationalism and genocidal racism were "faithfully reflected" in it. It's such a revelation to know that the knights of the grail are jackbooted SS troops.

Maybe we should all just stop listening to music and read what critics tell us it's really about.


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## Klassic (Dec 19, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Maybe we should all just stop listening to music and read what critics tell us it's really about.


Woodduck, you have finally made contact with reality my friend. Now you are starting to learn how things really work.


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## Dr Johnson (Jun 26, 2015)

I like them both.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Klassic said:


> Woodduck, you have finally made contact with reality my friend. Now you are starting to learn how things really work.


We're never too old to learn.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Elgar is all right, I guess, maybe, like, sometimes, yeah.

Bruckner is the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel.


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## Klassic (Dec 19, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> We're never too old to learn.


Yes, I think it quite sad that people would think their musical opinion counts for anything, when we have a world full of professional critics.


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Maybe we should all just stop listening to music and read what critics tell us it's really about.


I quoted the unnamed critic ironically to 'validate' my ambivalence about Elgar's music.


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

I like both of them, Elgar's first symphony is a particular favourite
Bruckner, I have slowly come to enjoy more over the years. I still feel that he can take a long time to get to where he is going but boy are the views good along the way


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## trem0lo (Sep 14, 2016)

Elgar surpasses Bruckner in the depth of his vocal works. Bruckner's vocal works, great as they are, never found much of a home outside of the church. Edgar's oratorios are more accessible—The Apostles, The Kingdom and (especially) The Dream of Gerontius are gorgeous works and more accessible to modern audiences. 

When we singers do get to perform Bruckner, however, it makes us very happy. His choral motets are beautiful, challenging and very rewarding.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

TurnaboutVox said:


> I quoted the unnamed critic ironically to 'validate' my ambivalence about Elgar's music.


I know. But one should never neglect to hold a critic's feet to the fire. Or just throw him in.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Manxfeeder said:


> A simple answer from me: Bruckner rings my chimes, and Elgar doesn't (at least very much).


If I may be so bold + 1.


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## BoggyB (May 6, 2016)

Thanks for the replies - although I kinda hoped there wouldn't be any! So with the exception of one poster (trem0lo) who was focusing on vocal works, there's no one in the XNOR camp who likes Elgar but not Bruckner.

There was a documentary on UK TV a few years ago that rejected the notion of Elgar as a flag-waving imperialist, and I suppose the parochialism notion can be linked to this. I suggest that any composer whose music is identified with a country or region can be called parochial, but such music is only a part of Elgar's output. And even so, if the patriotic music is good (which Elgar's is) then that's all to the good!


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## Dr Johnson (Jun 26, 2015)

Have you read the chapter on Elgar in *The Lives of the Great Composers* by Harold C. Schonberg?


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## BoggyB (May 6, 2016)

I'm afraid I'd never even heard of the book...


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## musicrom (Dec 29, 2013)

BoggyB said:


> Thanks for the replies - although I kinda hoped there wouldn't be any! So with the exception of one poster (trem0lo) who was focusing on vocal works, there's no one in the XNOR camp who likes Elgar but not Bruckner.
> 
> There was a documentary on UK TV a few years ago that rejected the notion of Elgar as a flag-waving imperialist, and I suppose the parochialism notion can be linked to this. I suggest that any composer whose music is identified with a country or region can be called parochial, but such music is only a part of Elgar's output. And even so, if the patriotic music is good (which Elgar's is) then that's all to the good!


Well, I wouldn't say I dislike Bruckner, but I definitely much prefer Elgar. I feel like Bruckner's music is often over-the-top, overemphasizing the brass section, while the thematic material often sounds very similar. Maybe that's unfair, and I haven't listened enough, but that's just my impression, especially of his later symphonies. I might be the only one who probably prefers his earlier symphonies (pre-#4) to his supposedly more mature works. Interestingly, I really like Mahler - I feel he expresses a much wider range of emotion and his orchestration is phenomenal.

With Elgar, I really like most of his orchestral works, although I don't know his symphonies that well and my first impression of them wasn't great. His lighter orchestral works are often charming, and well-orchestrated. I really like how he wrote for the string section. I rank his cello concerto, quite different from the rest of his works, among the best - if not _the _best - within the genre.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Bruckner went for the "big" sound. But he could be replaced by a single electric guitar, sufficiently amplified. Truth.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I find this a strange comparison. Elgar was the more conventional (conservative, even) composer while Bruckner was truly a one-off. Elgar made strong contributions to a variety of forms while Bruckner was all symphonies and a few masses. It is decades (surely?) since we thought of Elgar as too British to export and even longer since we felt Bruckner was too German. I love them both and will not choose between them.


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## Andolink (Oct 29, 2012)

Any who may think of Elgar the lesser composer should pay serious attention to his Violin Sonata, String Quartet and Piano Quintet, all late masterpieces that along with the Cello Concerto surpass anything by Bruckner. For my problems with Bruckner see all the negative comments above.


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

I am very familiar with Elgar's violin sonata, string quartet (I don't much care for this work) and piano quintet. My personal opinion is that none of them can hold a candle to Bruckner's single string quintet. Taste is a funny thing!


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I have most of Bruckner's compositions and a great deal of Elgar, including his symphonies, concertos, overtures, marches, a good selection of choral works and chamber music.

I like Elgar. I like him very much.

But I love Bruckner. No contest.


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## Bruckner Anton (Mar 10, 2016)

Elgar is a good composer, but I will never compare him with that person.


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## padraic (Feb 26, 2015)

Xaltotun said:


> Bruckner is the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel.


I'm stealing this


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

As I recall, Bruckner was harmonically adventurous; his 5-year mission, to seek out and explore strange new harmonic territory.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Not very familiar with Bruckner but love Elgar, especially Cello Concerto!!


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