# Dubious internet music store practices



## Head_case (Feb 5, 2010)

I don't know how many of us still buy physical media based music?

Here are some anecdotal experiences of mine over the past year. I thought I'd share them to keep my grade average above the more frequent bad experiences that I'm getting.

1. Buying vinyl LPs: I've yet to meet a dud seller. Most vinyl LPs I get are from s/h stores or off the internet. They usually are what they say on the packet and on the whole, I find it more pleasurable buying this way. If it says 'excellent condition', it usually is. If it says 'well played', it still plays. I've yet to find one which skips or has been polished like an ice rink. Postage is the usual killer - anything posted from the USA to UK will cost double the LP cost minimum! Some links in the 'vinyl LP resurgence' thread to the shops.

http://www.talkclassical.com/23453-vinyl-lp-records-resurgence.html

2. Buying CDs from stores: this isn't happening at all, except when I travel overseas. * FNAC *in France has some of the best stores, as does *Gibert Jeune*. *HMV* ...you all know what's happened to that recently. Apart from that, it's probably just the one or two specialist retailer who charge full price and have a specialist selection - sometimes one or two gems. They offer an internet service too - like www.fnac.fr which is great if you're into European music released on the continent, but unavailable as an import. Postage can be high though. Expect your credit card company to call you to ask if your card has been fraudulently abused :lol:

3. Internet based stores:

3a: The best ones I've come across are like *Prestoclassical*; *Crotchet* and maybe *MDT*. These are dedicated classical music internet shops - UK based though. Very efficient and reliable. No qualms.

3b: Generic non-specialist internet outlets - I've had really bad experiences from some of the largest and cheapest ones. *Estocks*, who are based in the Channel Islands, formerly avoided LVCR (Low Value Consignment Relief) or Value Added Tax (VAT) and so were cheaper. Their quality of their secondhand CDs is variable, but overall 'acceptable but not very attractive'. When they say 'very good' condition, all that means is that you will probably not catch syphillis from it. 
Their prices are not great for second hand CDs, and I'd probably use them again, however they have little knowledge of their inventory. 
*
Grooves Inc*, is based in Switzerland, and is probably one of the worse internet retailers I've ever come across. They advertise 'stock' which they do not actually have. They will take payment on an order, before providing 'stock'. If you pay by paypal, they may not inform you before the 60 days is up. Some 3 months later, they have failed to supply what they've promised, and then stretch out communication without ever making it right. The worse is, that they use cheap envelopes and the CD jewel case is invariably smashed up. They will not let you know when an item comes in stock, or if it does, so you have to keep on your toes. It is probably undermanned and understaffed and overstuffed with Swiss bureaucracy like their rail system.

4. Record Label Houses - for example - the indie record labels, like *Albany Records [USA]*; or *Dutton Vocalion [UK]* or *Glitterhouse [Germany] *- these are my favourites. They sell their own CDs at better rates than the shops or on the internet or ebay. They stand behind their products and have great customer services. They package everything beautifully and even include catalogues or interesting receipts.

5. *Ebay* - hit and miss. Mostly 50/50.

6. *Amazon* - mostly good, although 'ex-library CDs' from sellers claiming that they are legit without any ex-library stamps; promo 'not for sale' albums as well as 'cut outs' all feature so it's important to ask before clicking on that awful cart logo. Sometimes the same item under amazon.fr or amazon.com rather than amazon.co.uk turns up cheaper - then it's a matter of calculating which is cheaper for postage (if they will post internationally).

7. * GEMM* and* CDandLP.com *- they were great 10 years ago. Now, they're dominated by opportunists trying to list would-be unusual repertoire at 4x the cost of the CD.

8. *Music-international* website sells direct - they are excellent! Fast and efficient, and you get to support their wonderful website! No downsides to this one except that they charge more for paypal than by UK drawn cheque.

Know any others?


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

I rarely by second hand over the internet, because of how unacknowledged most sellers are of Classical repertoire. I find it much more rewarding to peruse second hand stuff IRL. 

As for "new" releases/downloads, I've noticed that over the last few years I've bought more actively from record labels, for me it feels much better to put my money at their end even if it can be slightly dearer. 

/ptr


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

I quite rarely buy on the internet. I did some big buyings from *Crotchet* and was satisfied with it, and from *Dodax* in Germany, provided by Amazon. I only focus on large English and German suppliers due to postage cost and delivery time, competitive prices and a general feeling of reliability/"contactability".

Did a few downloads now and then too, but don´t remember the names. Was very satisfied with *e-music* when they had a monthly fee giving access to a number of downloads from their mp3-repertoire (say 30 or 50 tracks, which sometimes included one complete, obscure symphony or orchestral work per track), but they´ve changed their system now and aren´t so cheap. I´m considering joining again because of Jan Klusak´s string quartets, though.

I shop around a bit ... for instance I´ve recently been looking at a Japanese site for what is apparently one of the only available versions of Scherchen´s Philadelphia Mahler 5th.

Never had any real problems with i-net orders, but the vast majority of my buyings are cheap second-hand LPs and CDs + CD sales, especially in Copenhagen.

Thanks for the reviews and information above, nice to know more about the subject.


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## vertigo (Jan 9, 2013)

I have only positive things to say for eclassical, linnrecords and channel classics with regards to high resolution downloads.


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

Continuing, previously I've used MDT and Crotchet (UK) JPC (DE), Bruno Klassiek (NL), and very often the Japanese branch of HMV and CD-Japan, both are exceptionally well stocked but expensive, but if you are interested in the vast market of local Japanese releases a treasure trove.

When I lived in Joen's "backyard" a few years ago (  ) I bought loads of discs at Accord on Jernbanepladsen 5 Cph. when I pass through Paris a visit at La Dame Blanche & Jussieu Classique have been mandatory.

/ptr


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

I buy almost exclusively from amazon in the US, Spain, Italy and Germany. I have had shipments lost in the mail that were immediately replaced, defective disks that were cheerfully replaced or refunded, and have gotten great second hand deals. Totally satisfied.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

bigshot said:


> I buy almost exclusively from amazon in the US, Spain, Italy and Germany. I have had shipments lost in the mail that were immediately replaced, defective disks that were cheerfully replaced or refunded, and have gotten great second hand deals. Totally satisfied.


Agree with that. The only issue I ever had was with a "like new" DVD that stuck. It was indeed like new, but had a problem. The 3rd party seller replaced it with a brand new DVD, withut question or asking for a ship-back. Used CDs have been uniformly satisfactory or better.

BTW 3rd party sellers (if domestic) usually ship much more quickly than mainline Amazon.


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## davinci (Oct 11, 2012)

I only buy my CDs from Amazon US...never have had a problem. There are several Amazon vendors who specialize in classical that I buy from; new and used. 
With Vinyl, I have been burned several times, so I don't trust the description/ratings online. Now I stick with one classical vendor on Ebay and 2 internet stores; so far very reliable.
And since I live in the US, I stopped buying from abroad due to the high shipping rates.


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## Head_case (Feb 5, 2010)

davinci said:


> And since I live in the US, I stopped buying from abroad due to the high shipping rates.


The reverse is true over here (UK). It is still cheaper at times, to buy from the USA and import over for a single CD. It is postage wasteful, however for some reason, Germany or the USA do seem much cheaper for CDs. France and Japan, tends not to be although if there is a particular CD to kill for ....

My objection to Amazon UK mainstream is its use of a massive horse carriage box to post a single CD. They seem to really go overkill. In contrast, tax avoidance CD retailers like Grooves Inc in Switzerland, really economise and use toilet paper like card which shreds as soon as it's posted.

The worse vinyl LP record I've ever received was from a Rarerussiandvd or something seller in the former USSR. They still list famous Melodiya releases over and above the odds ... which wouldn't be so bad if they were in collector's condition.

Far from it. The last vinyl LP I bought from them had mould growing all over it. The LP cover was worse than Grooves Inc toilet paper packaging and had already come undone at the edges and corners. The mould was blotchy and green everywhere over the record and sanitising it with pure alcohol and proper Andrex toilet paper amounted in half a roll binned just cleaning it forever, to reveal deep cat claw scratches underneath. The postage was a killer, and the experience smelled worse than a Russian caravan with Baba Yaga cooking the inhabitants.

Never again I thought lol.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

1. I make 99% of my purchases from Amazon Marketplace, the sellers that piggyback on the Amazon site. Amazon itself is ridiculously expensive, typically charging ~$20 and more for a single disc album. If there is any dissatisfaction that cannot be resolved with the seller, Amazon guarantees a full refund. Most of my purchases are for new, but I also shop around for deals on like new and very good used CDs. Most sellers are honest, but a few overrate their CD quality. I insist on the quality I paid for, even if I got a dream deal! In the very few instances when I haven't been able to resolve issues with the seller, Amazon has promptly refunded. I am 100% satisfied.

As I live in Canada, I buy from Amazon's Canadian site, shipping at $3.50 per album. I used to also buy from the US site, but since the start of 2013, they have raised their postage rate to $14.30 per album, so I no longer shop there at all. Instead, I shop at the UK site, which charges £3.08, about $4.50, for the first album and an additional £0.99, about $1.50, for each additional album, when the albums come from the same seller. The German and French sites charge about €14 per album, so they are out of the question.

2. I have also discovered Second Spin. They have some nice weekly deals and I have made about 0.1% of my purchases there so far. They charge $8 shipping per order, so that is an advantage over Amazon's per album charge, when buying more than 2 albums. Unfortunately, they do not disclose the quality of their stock. Most of the orders for used albums (they also have some new items) turned out to be in very good condition, but I was very disappointed with one order and received the wrong CD on another order. I complained and within a couple of hours, I received a credit for the least expensive of the albums in both cases, which is pretty near always exactly equal to the shipping fee, so they pretty well have you hooked for another order. I also got to keep the defective and erroneously mailed items. I am satisfied with them as a fall-back shop for items I cannot otherwise afford elsewhere.

3. I acquire about 0.9% of my purchases at local used CD shops. Unfortunately, there are few remaining local music stores and trades are down to a trickle, so stock changes mostly only when they acquire estate collections.


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## Centropolis (Jul 8, 2013)

brotagonist said:


> As I live in Canada, I buy from Amazon's Canadian site, shipping at $3.50 per album. I used to also buy from the US site, but since the start of 2013, they have raised their postage rate to $14.30 per album, so I no longer shop there at all. Instead, I shop at the UK site, which charges £3.08, about $4.50, for the first album and an additional £0.99, about $1.50, for each additional album, when the albums come from the same seller. The German and French sites charge about €14 per album, so they are out of the question.


I also live in Canada and have looked on Amazon US and UK for used CDs but every time I proceed to checkout, I get this "sorry they don't deliver to my country." message. Maybe there is a settings I need to click to filter sellers are are shipping outside of the US/UK.

I've bought from Amazon.ca both used from marketplace and "direct" from Amazon.ca. All instances went well so far. I have also purchased a lot at local used CD places around town.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

Centropolis said:


> I also live in Canada and have looked on Amazon US and UK for used CDs but every time I proceed to checkout, I get this "sorry they don't deliver to my country." message.


What I think the problem is:

In Amazon Marketplace, you will see a list of sellers, ordered from lowest to highest price. The seller information to the right of the price and album condition shows where they ship to: some only domestic, some international and domestic. You can only buy from sellers on the UK site that ship internationally.

There's no appreciable lag in delivery time from the UK and the Amazon guarantee is your friend. You have access to European imports and a much larger selection of used albums 

Be sure to compare the prices on the Canadian and UK sites. Some sellers are on both sites (may use different names) and have different prices on the two sites. I fiddled a bit to find the shortest possible search string to get Google to convert: _pound Canadian_ will display a handy conversion application.


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2013)

Records International (USA) is good for unusual repertoire, but they don't sell used CDs.


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