# Joachim Raff - Symphony No. 5



## HansZimmer (11 mo ago)

How do you rate this symphony? What are the best recordings?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Moderator note: when embedding videos, make sure that you use the actual link, and not the one that will start at the point where you are in the video. Your link made the music start half way, I've edited in the right link.


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## Logos (Nov 3, 2012)

I believe Bernard Hermann's rendition was at one time just about the only commercially available recording of this symphony on the market. I find the symphony somewhat lacking in romantic "gloomth" to use Walpole's term. Raff was a composer of bourgeois sweetness; he had a Tchaikovskian suavity--strong melodies, but a certain facile shallowness that savours of the salon. This 5th symphony in particular, taking inspiration from the famous Sturm und Drang ballad, seems to me to require a deeper sense of terror in the final movement; whereas Raff is whimsical, lyrical, caught in a sedative love dream that emphasizes the erotic aspect of the ballad at the expense of its other thunder and lightning qualities. All these detractions having been made, it is probably his greatest symphony along with no. 3 'Im Walde'.


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

It is very good, although it does not quite rise to the same level as some of the masterpieces by the great symphonists like Tchaikovsky, Beethoven, Dvořák, Kalinnikov or Borodin.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Logos said:


> Raff was a composer of bourgeois sweetness; he had a Tchaikovskian suavity--strong melodies, but a certain facile shallowness that savours of the salon. This 5th symphony in particular, taking inspiration from the famous Sturm und Drang ballad, seems to me to require a deeper sense of terror in the final movement; whereas Raff is whimsical, lyrical, and seems caught in a sedative love dream that emphasizes the erotic aspect of the ballad at the expense its other thunder and lightning qualities. All these detractions having been made, it is probably his greatest symphony along with no. 3 'Im Walde'.


I can pretty much agree with all of that. The last movement when the ghostly fiancé claims the bride is rather harmless and the first three movements I find a bit too long; it would have worked better as a shorter tone poem (focussed on the ghost visit) but might still have been too tame for the subject.
(The only recording I know is Stadlmair/Bamberg (Tudor))

The "Forest" and the "Seasons" symphonies typically have some nice picturesque movements, Raff seems best in such "genre pieces" like "hunt", "carnival", "elves dancing" or so but they hardly carry a 40 min. symphony.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

I love this symphony! It's on my list of 5 Things I'd Like to Hear in Concert. It was that Herrmann recording that turned my on to it some 50 years ago. Great masterpiece? Yep! It fully belongs to stand beside Tchaikovsky's Manfred, Berlioz Harold in Italy, and other works. I liked it so much that I contacted the Library of Congress and had them print me a copy of the piano 4-hand arrangement. A friend and I played through it many times. About 20 years ago an orchestra I was with wanted to do a concert consisting of nothing but marches. I convinced them to play the third movement of the Raff and we did it! I got to play the triangle part. I still remember the audience's reaction at the end - a gasp and then light laughter - it was probably the first time they had ever heard it and were delighted. It was extremely aggravating to know that the entire symphony was sitting right there on the music stands, but we only did one movement. I still hope to get the whole thing played someday, but orchestra managers and directors are hell-bent on replaying the standard repertoire forever.

The Herrmann recording was the one I imprinted on, so being fair in judging recordings is difficult. Herrmann obviously loved the music and knew it well, having played it with his radio orchestra. The London Philharmonic played it marvelously. It's nice to know that there are so many recordings, but Herrmann is still tops. Ones to avoid: Bamert (sloppy, indifferent and horrible sonics), Jarvi (too fast and hectic), and Schneider (an unfortunate editing error is very annoying). The Carthy and Butt recordings are just fine. Stadlmair is excellent, too.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I first came to the Raff "Lenore", decades ago, by way of the Nonesuch vinyl disc version (H-71287) released in 1973.










The album cover was great, but I recall not taking as well to the music itself.

Of course, I think that may be only because I had listened to Raff's Third Symphony, "Im Walde", first, some weeks earlier. It was the Candide record (CD 31063) released 1972 that introduced me to Raff, and I loved that third symphony.










Raff was not quite a household word back in the early '70s and his music was more difficult to come by than was that of, say, Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven. I purchased the Nonesuch disc because I had so fallen for the Candide Raff. For years, the only Raff music I had in my collection were these two vinyl discs. I listened to "Im Walde" often (and still do). I tended to ignore the "Lenore" and thus never gained a real appreciation of its merits, whatever they may be. I do know the work deserves another listen, and I will get to that soon.

In recent decades I've managed to pick up a set of the complete Raff symphonies, and have dabbled in sampling them over the years. But none of the others has struck quite the chord with me as has "Im Walde" which remains one of my favorite symphonies, and the symphony by Raff that I would heartily recommend to one just coming to this composer's work.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

One of the greatest achievements in the CD era was the recording of so much music that I didn't think we'd ever get to hear: that there are two (more or less) complete cycles of Raff symphonies is remarkable. It's not difficult to hear why Raff's two most popular symphonies were the 5th and the 3rd. I, too, picked up that Candide 3rd and was astonished to find out later on that the finale was heavily cut. It's a beauty of a work, and if anyone doubts Raff's considerable skill, just listen how he takes the theme from the 2nd movement and weaves it seamlessly into the scherzo 3rd movement. Genius. There was an interesting story in Hi Fidelity magazine about making the recording of the 3rd: conductor Kapp had a revolt on his hands from the orchestral; a player at some point in rehearsal stood up and screamed "why to we have to play this ****!!!". Listening to that old recording, the orchestra was barely above the level of amateur.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I enjoy Raff's symphonies and his string quartets are largely excellent too.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Not so good, not so bad - that's the rating I'd give most of Raff's music I've heard.


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## HansZimmer (11 mo ago)

Art Rock said:


> Moderator note: when embedding videos, make sure that you use the actual link, and not the one that will start at the point where you are in the video. Your link made the music start half way, I've edited in the right link.


Ok, thanks for your correction, but I changed the video because I saw that there were errors in the previous video. Does the new video work like expected?


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

I like all Raff's music, some pieces I even love, ( Cello concerto) for performing I would go for Bamberg Symphonic Orchestra, Hans Stadlmair


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