# Weak compositions by famous comosers



## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

Yes, It's the time to find the weak points of the famous composers! 

I start with few of them.

Dvorak:
Symphony No.4: Except the andante part, those three Allegros are too loud to please you.
String Quartet No. 2,4,6: Have listened to them some times and they're not beautiful.

Beethoven:
Symphony No.8: Not good enough!
Symphony No.2: First movement is great but next 3 are disappointing.


Schubert:
Symphony No.7: Not as good as his others.

The rest is up to you..


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

There's already a similar thread:

http://www.talkclassical.com/20319-grey-thread.html


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

Dammit! I lost so many great threads and opportunities by my absence of last month...


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Mozart: Eine Kleine Nachtmusik.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Mozart: Eine Kleine Nachtmusik.


Just one?

I listened to K222 - sounds like much later Mozart. fantastic, thanks.


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## Krisena (Jul 21, 2012)

Hey! Don't diss Beethoven's 8th, I love that symphony. >:I


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)




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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

stomanek said:


> Just one?
> 
> I listened to K222 - sounds like much later Mozart. fantastic, thanks.


Not just one, but that is one of his most famous works and I really can't see anything special about it. It is weak compared to K222. So is the oboe quartet.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

I also think Beethoven 8 is a super symphony.
For Dvorak -his first 6 symphonies seem weak - give no indication of the great 7th symphony which followed them

For Mozart - it seems to be that pc no 16 is weak by his standards.
The leporello/zerlina duet is poor - can't believe M let that one into Don Giovanni.


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## Krisena (Jul 21, 2012)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Mozart: Eine Kleine Nachtmusik.


The last movement is so cute.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Krisena said:


> The last movement is so cute.


It is cute, but it's also WEAK.


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## StevenOBrien (Jun 27, 2011)

Mozart:
Piano Concerto No. 26
La clemenza di tito
Cosi fan tutte (To some extent)

Beethoven:
Fidelio



ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Mozart: Eine Kleine Nachtmusik.


Why do you consider that a weak work?


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

StevenOBrien said:


> Mozart:
> Piano Concerto No. 26
> La clemenza di tito
> Cosi fan tutte (To some extent)
> ...


Agree about pc26 - disagree about Tito and Cosi - 2 GREAT operas.


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## StevenOBrien (Jun 27, 2011)

stomanek said:


> Agree about pc26 - disagree about Tito and Cosi - 2 GREAT operas.


They've never clicked with me in the same way that DG and Figaro have. I've never been able to sit down and enjoy them. Tito suffers from this problem much more than Cosi though.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Well, rats. I was about to post Beethoven's Wellington's Victory, but Sid James already did in the Grey Thread.

I think Arvo Part's Lamintate is weak. Even the name is weak: it was commissioned by the Tate museum. Hence, Lamin-Tate.


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## Hausmusik (May 13, 2012)

I love, love, love Beethoven 8.

To avoid dredging up well-known duds, here are some championed and/or oft-recorded works by great composers I find comparatively weak:

Mozart, "Hunt" String Quartet
Beethoven, Clarinet Trio; Op. 102 Cello Sonatas
Brahms, String Quartet #3
Schubert, Symphony #3 (I like it well enough, but why Kleiber chose this to be one of the few symphonies he committed to record is unclear to me)
Tchaikovsky, Piano Trio
Schumann, Carnaval, Piano Sonata #2, Fantasiestucke Op. 88, Piano Trios. . .


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## Hausmusik (May 13, 2012)

OK I just listened again to Schubert #3. It's lots of fun. Stand by my Kleiber comment, though.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

It funny re Tchaikovsky's piano trio. I see it as a strong work, in so many ways. Maybe its the long length that's an issue with some? It can be very draining. After a performance here, the musicians looked totally pooped. What a marathon! But a great work imo, just tops.

Anyway, re Beethoven, Fidelio is a favourite work of his for me, as well as a fav opera of mine, though generally I'm not the hugest opera fan overall.

& re this -



Manxfeeder said:


> Well, rats. I was about to post Beethoven's Wellington's Victory, but Sid James already did in the Grey Thread...


Yeah well its kind of labelled as a dud by the 'consensus' but I did read some criticism of LvB's 'Spring' violin sonata. Some issue with the scherzo being very short and the work being superficial and ear candy. I quite like it, but it is different to say the 'Kreutzer,' which is more profound and deep, of course. But Spring is a happy time, so Beethoven might be conveying that, pure and simple.

I think Berlioz's _Symphonie Fantastique _and its 'sequel' _Harold in Italy _are great works, equally great but very different.

I've read criticism of his final symphony, 'Funebre and Triomphale' as being vastly inferior to those other two. I can't judge for myself as I don't remember this one. What do you guys think? Is it a dud? Or not up to the standard of the other two?

Similar criticism has been levelled at Liszt's 'Dante Symphony,' compared to his 'Faust Symphony.' I have listened to both. I like both but the edge goes to 'Faust.' However, I think they are equally good, just different. More or less.

As to this -



> ...
> I think Arvo Part's Lamintate is weak. Even the name is weak: it was commissioned by the Tate museum. Hence, Lamin-Tate.


If its a work he did in the last 20 years, then for me its automatically likely to be a dud. Rehash. That's what he's been doing for too long now. When I listened to classical radio, virtually the only living composer they played was Part. So I listened to a good deal of his output, old and new. And his older works, from before early 1990's, they are vastly better than those since. For one thing, there is variety there. Now its uniform blandness, basically, repetition ad nauseum.

Anyway I won't harp on it, I always talk about this, its become a habit.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Hausmusik said:


> ...Beethoven, ...Op. 102 Cello Sonatas. . .


I agree re his cello sonatas generally. Beethoven is a fav composer of mine, but his cello sonatas I've found boring. Even the one they say is 'best,' the one in G. But I think that's from another set. I am still open to changing my mind on this, giving them more chances, but its not a high priority.


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## Hausmusik (May 13, 2012)

Sid, I agree with you. I am able to muster up a little bit of excitement for the Op. 69 sonata. That's about it.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

^^Ok well I'll try his Op. 69 first once I get round to listening to Beethoven's cello sonatas again. I'll go by that.


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## Hausmusik (May 13, 2012)

OK, a more controversial nominee for weak work by great composer: _Die Schöne Müllerin_.
I have been trying to get into this song cycle lately, but it just can't compare with _Winterreise_ or the songs that were collected as _Schwanengesang_.


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## SottoVoce (Jul 29, 2011)

Sid James said:


> I agree re his cello sonatas generally. Beethoven is a fav composer of mine, but his cello sonatas I've found boring. Even the one they say is 'best,' the one in G. But I think that's from another set. I am still open to changing my mind on this, giving them more chances, but its not a high priority.


The early cello sonatas are much better than the later ones, they are a highmark of the early period. I've always vouched for the early Beethoven period to be an incredibly creative and terribly underrated part of Beethoven's artistic career. Have a listen:


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Beethoven's late piano sonatas - 
Dvorak's first 6 symphonies -
Beethoven's sy 1 and 2
Mendelssohn's piano concertos
Bruckner sy 1 - 9


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

StevenOBrien said:


> They've never clicked with me in the same way that DG and Figaro have. I've never been able to sit down and enjoy them. Tito suffers from this problem much more than Cosi though.


Idomeneo is the only mature opera of M that has not clicked with me.

As fo pc 26 - really odd one that - as it is surrounded by the great works pc 25, 27, 24 - and pc 26 is enjoyable - but so weak in invention by M standards of this time.


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## Frasier (Mar 10, 2007)

stomanek said:


> Beethoven's late piano sonatas -
> Dvorak's first 6 symphonies -
> Beethoven's sy 1 and 2
> Mendelssohn's piano concertos
> Bruckner sy 1 - 9


I suppose Bruckner's sy 00 and 0 are nice in their way....


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Frasier said:


> I suppose Bruckner's sy 00 and 0 are nice in their way....


Oh I forgot about sy 0


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