# First time buying from ArkivMusic....very disappointed



## rice

Hello everyone,

I am new to the forum. Sorry if this post is not appropriate or has been discussed before.

Today I received a CD from ArkivMusic. This is the first time I bought from them. I thought they are very legit. But the CD I got just shocked me. I've never seen a CD like this.

It is one of the Chopin albums by Maestro Horowitz, "Horowitz plays Chopin Vol.3", published by RCA/Gold Seal BMG Music. I have vol. 1 and 2, along with a few others from this Horowitz Collection. For some unknown reason Vol.3 is a bit rarer than 1 or 2. I thought ArkivMusic is a big name retailer so I bought it without much research.

The CD I received, there is no other way to put it, looks like a counterfeit to me. The next moment I remembered there was something called re-issue in the Classical record world, but I am sure it wasn't what I ordered. This is what the front looks like. 








Even the gold seal logo was cut in half.....

And the back, with no info on when and where it was printed. I can't tell if it's a CD-R or not. 









Of course no booklet. It was just a piece of paper with logos. This is just sad.









Here's a comparison of it with an original CD


















Even the jewel case is crap. It must be the cheapest, worst piece of plastic I've ever seen. Thin, very soft and fragile.

The CD itself plays fine. But as classical music lovers you must understand this is very disappointing to receive something like this. We want the authentic stuff with proper booklet and information. Especially I believe if I search well enough I can find the original CD. To be clear I understand it is an older publication and ArkivMusic does sell re-prints. But it was not advertised as one. 
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=6586#custReviews

I don't plan to return it as the shipping cost is ridiculously expensive from where I am to the US. I just hope my fellow music lovers will beware when they make their purchases.


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## Pugg

You should demand a full refund and let them pay for the shipping cost, this is daylight robbery.


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## Rangstrom

It is not listed as a CD-R on the website and, if it were, Archive does print that information on the case. This looks to be a cheap repackaging by Sony. Ironically if it were a CD-R of the original cd release you would have gotten a copy of the original liner notes.


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## JAS

ArkivMusic is always my provider of last resort . . . my _very_ last resort (including not bothering at all)


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## merlinus

My dealings with them have almost always been excellent, including responses from them when I was dissatisfied. They do offer authorized re-prints for some OOP discs, but these have always included all the appropriate materials. 

And there is a note on the back cover stating that this is an authorized re-print.


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## Guest

rice said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I am new to the forum. Sorry if this post is not appropriate or has been discussed before.
> 
> Today I received a CD from ArkivMusic. This is the first time I bought from them. I thought they are very legit. But the CD I got just shocked me. I've never seen a CD like this.
> 
> It is one of the Chopin albums by Maestro Horowitz, "Horowitz plays Chopin Vol.3", published by RCA/Gold Seal BMG Music. I have vol. 1 and 2, along with a few others from this Horowitz Collection. For some unknown reason Vol.3 is a bit rarer than 1 or 2. I thought ArkivMusic is a big name retailer so I bought it without much research.
> 
> The CD I received, there is no other way to put it, looks like a counterfeit to me. The next moment I remembered there was something called re-issue in the Classical record world, but I am sure it wasn't what I ordered. This is what the front looks like.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even the gold seal logo was cut in half.....
> 
> And the back, with no info on when and where it was printed. I can't tell if it's a CD-R or not.
> 
> Of course no booklet. It was just a piece of paper with logos. This is just sad.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even the jewel case is crap. It must be the cheapest, worst piece of plastic I've ever seen. Thin, very soft and fragile.
> 
> The CD itself plays fine. But as classical music lovers you must understand this is very disappointing to receive something like this. We want the authentic stuff with proper booklet and information. Especially I believe if I search well enough I can find the original CD. To be clear I understand it is an older publication and ArkivMusic does sell re-prints. But it was not advertised as one.
> http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=6586#custReviews
> 
> I don't plan to return it as the shipping cost is ridiculously expensive from where I am to the US. I just hope my fellow music lovers will beware when they make their purchases.


I recently bought a cd on ebay,I was disappointed when it arrived.It was a reissue,cheap,no information at all.I purchased another one and that was the first edition.

First edition










second ( budget)










When you look to the playside ( the budget) it shines green like the cd's you burn yourself at home.










home


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## Klassik

Amazon sells this CD as an on-demand CD-R (it is listed as such). That one also has the RCA Gold Seal logo cutoff. Whether yours is a CD-R reprint or not, I can't tell from the picture. What does the backside of the CD look like? Is it silver or does it have a slight gold/green tint? Is there any information on the CD matrix like IFPI codes? That could help you tell if it's a CD-R or regular pressed CD.

It's a shame that ArkivMusic did not list this as a reprint, but this could be a reprint from Sony that was done haphazardly. Not that Arkiv would be faultless if that is the case. They should still list it as a reprint with inauthentic packaging. Sony does sell some "white label" and "white box" remastered CDs that do not include any sort of liner notes, but at least you know those aren't the original packaging since they have the modern Sony design. Plus, the ones I've gotten of those come in a regular jewel case and not a slimline jewel case like you got. 

But, yeah, I don't blame you for being upset. Thanks for sharing your experience. We'll all know to be more careful when ordering from Sony CDs from ArkivMusic.


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## jegreenwood

Traverso said:


> I recently bought a cd on ebay,I was disappointed when it arrived.It was a reissue,cheap,no information at all.I purchased another one and that was the first edition.
> 
> First edition
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> second ( budget)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you look to the playside ( the budget) it shines green like the cd's you burn yourself at home.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> home


Wherever it was made, the maker doesn't know how to spell Leonhardt.


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## Guest

It is not only sony,universal has also reprint cd's with a green tint.( with a normal booklet)


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## Guest

jegreenwood said:


> Wherever it was made, the maker doesn't know how to spell Leonhardt.


You are right,I was so annoyed that I overlooked it.


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## rice

It does have a hint of green on the CD. Looks just like CD-R I had 10 years ago. No IFPI. The words you see in the photo are all it has. Sigh. It comes in a regular sized jewel case but the plastic is just like those you find on take-away lunch boxes, probably even worse. 
I don't mind a quality re-issue/compilation. I am just surprised how Sony has done it so cheaply that they didn't even bother to put in a catalog number. ArkivMusic has part of the blame because it was listed with the image of original CD jacket and you have no way to tell.


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## rice

Traverso said:


> I recently bought a cd on ebay,I was disappointed when it arrived.It was a reissue,cheap,no information at all.I purchased another one and that was the first edition.
> 
> First edition
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> second ( budget)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you look to the playside ( the budget) it shines green like the cd's you burn yourself at home.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> home


Seems like sony is becoming lazier and lazier with the on-demand reissuing. 
Mine doesn't even have a barcode and the copyright disclaimers on it. 
I think I am going to search for an original CD but doing so on ebay has become terrifying after this shenanigan


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## Klassik

rice said:


> It does have a hint of green on the CD. Looks just like CD-R I had 10 years ago. No IFPI. The words you see in the photo are all it has. Sigh.


Yeah, that certainly sounds like a CD-R.



Traverso said:


> It is not only sony,universal has also reprint cd's with a green tint.( with a normal booklet)


Those Universal re-issues still have the Compact Disc logo on them. I wonder if CD-Rs are within the Compact Disc Digital Audio specifications. If not, they might be using that logo out of compliance. It would be really odd if they released a Philips disc like that given that Philips partially created the specifications along with Sony.


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## Bulldog

I've been buying from ArkivMusic for many years; never had a problem.


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## Pugg

Bulldog said:


> I've been buying from ArkivMusic for many years; never had a problem.


So O.P should have his / her money back easily you think?


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## Bulldog

Pugg said:


> So O.P should have his / her money back easily you think?


Since I've never had any complaints, I have no idea how things will go for the O.P.


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## Triplets

Op
Arkiv clearly lists many of their materials as CD-R This is a service they have for continuing to issue deleted discs
It is clearly explained on their site. They call them ArkivCdDs and that is how this was listed.
It is a valuable resource to allow consumers to but deleted discs, which are made with CD recorders and are bit perfect copies.


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## Pugg

Bulldog said:


> Since I've never had any complaints, I have no idea how things will go for the O.P.


Fair enough, seeing the post below you makes me think if O.P did read the small prints by the way.


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## Klassik

I'm looking at the listing for this CD on ArkivMusic's website (both via the link in OP's post and by searching for it on their website) and I don't see anything on there about this being a re-issue or a CD-R. Maybe it'll say something after it's been added to the cart, but I can see why OP would be upset. Arkiv might list some of their re-issues clearly, but this isn't one of those cases.

On another note, I actually opened up a new CD last night and got surprised by getting CD-R (this wasn't purchased from ArkivMusic). It's an Atterberg CD from the Sterling Records label out of Sweden. There's nothing on the jewel case or liner notes saying that it's a CD-R. In fact it looks so much like a regular CD (it's in a regular jewel case and all the liner notes are there) that it could fool most people, but I know what to look for like the Sony DADC CD-R model code on the hub. In this case, I can't blame the retailer for not knowing that they were selling a CD-R. Who knows if the distributor (Naxos I believe) even knew. My guess is that Sterling ordered a small run of re-issues using all the original packaging, but had to use CD-Rs since it was a small run. That's a guess, but they really ought to tell the retailers that they are CD-Rs so the retailers can tell the consumers. I'm quite disappointed, but I don't think I will return it. The next time I order a Sterling CD I'll have to be sure to contact them first and find out if there's any chance that it'll be a CD-R or a pressed CD.


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## hpowders

I've bought from ArchivMusic multiple times and I did have a problem once with an item that had to be back-ordered; otherwise, smooth as silk, as it should be at their outrageous prices.


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## Triplets

Klassik said:


> I'm looking at the listing for this CD on ArkivMusic's website (both via the link in OP's post and by searching for it on their website) and I don't see anything on there about this being a re-issue or a CD-R. Maybe it'll say something after it's been added to the cart, but I can see why OP would be upset. Arkiv might list some of their re-issues clearly, but this isn't one of those cases.
> 
> On another note, I actually opened up a new CD last night and got surprised by getting CD-R (this wasn't purchased from ArkivMusic). It's an Atterberg CD from the Sterling Records label out of Sweden. There's nothing on the jewel case or liner notes saying that it's a CD-R. In fact it looks so much like a regular CD (it's in a regular jewel case and all the liner notes are there) that it could fool most people, but I know what to look for like the Sony DADC CD-R model code on the hub. In this case, I can't blame the retailer for not knowing that they were selling a CD-R. Who knows if the distributor (Naxos I believe) even knew. My guess is that Sterling ordered a small run of re-issues using all the original packaging, but had to use CD-Rs since it was a small run. That's a guess, but they really ought to tell the retailers that they are CD-Rs so the retailers can tell the consumers. I'm quite disappointed, but I don't think I will return it. The next time I order a Sterling CD I'll have to be sure to contact them first and find out if there's any chance that it'll be a CD-R or a pressed CD.


That's interesting because whenI looked it up yesterday it was listed as a CD-R. I should mention that I access their site through a back door linc. Perhaps they have 2 listings but in fact only offer the CD-R.
I personally don't have a problem with purchasing a CD-R, as long as no compression was used. The average Classical disc sells in the hundreds, not the millions that pop music moves. If a company can offer the service of providing an exact copy of what is by nature a rare and deleted disc, and has a copyright agreement with the original label (as Arkiv does), then that to me is a service worth supporting.


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## Klassik

Triplets said:


> That's interesting because whenI looked it up yesterday it was listed as a CD-R. I should mention that I access their site through a back door linc. Perhaps they have 2 listings but in fact only offer the CD-R.
> I personally don't have a problem with purchasing a CD-R, as long as no compression was used. The average Classical disc sells in the hundreds, not the millions that pop music moves. If a company can offer the service of providing an exact copy of what is by nature a rare and deleted disc, and has a copyright agreement with the original label (as Arkiv does), then that to me is a service worth supporting.


That's odd that they have different information depending on which link you use. Granted, their main website probably needs to be the most correct one. Perhaps the reason why it's not listed is because this is a label made CD-R and not a re-release that Arkiv themselves are reissuing. I'm not sure if that would make a difference. In the case of my Sterling Atterberg CD, I'm not even sure how a retailer would know that it's a CD-R.

It's probably a good thing that labels are re-issuing CDs that would only sell in small quantities, but they need to state that they are CD-Rs and not regular CDs. I have one CD player which does not work well with CD-Rs. Many older players will not work with CD-Rs as well. Obviously I have other CD players, but some people only have one. Also, there's always concerns about how long CD-Rs will last. They should last for at least 100 years, but they seem more troublesome than modern pressed CDs. I also have some concerns that CDs that are re-released as CD-Rs may not have the same TOC and flag content as the originals and could have issues with pre-emphasis and stuff like that. Ripping a CD and burning it to a CD-R does not always make for a perfect copy. The audio may stay the same, but some of the disc formatting may differ. In the case of OP, he didn't even get the original packaging/liner notes that would have come with the standard edition which is a big difference.


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## Triplets

Klassik said:


> That's odd that they have different information depending on which link you use. Granted, their main website probably needs to be the most correct one. Perhaps the reason why it's not listed is because this is a label made CD-R and not a re-release that Arkiv themselves are reissuing. I'm not sure if that would make a difference. In the case of my Sterling Atterberg CD, I'm not even sure how a retailer would know that it's a CD-R.
> 
> It's probably a good thing that labels are re-issuing CDs that would only sell in small quantities, but they need to state that they are CD-Rs and not regular CDs. I have one CD player which does not work well with CD-Rs. Many older players will not work with CD-Rs as well. Obviously I have other CD players, but some people only have one. Also, there's always concerns about how long CD-Rs will last. They should last for at least 100 years, but they seem more troublesome than modern pressed CDs. I also have some concerns that CDs that are re-released as CD-Rs may not have the same TOC and flag content as the originals and could have issues with pre-emphasis and stuff like that. Ripping a CD and burning it to a CD-R does not always make for a perfect copy. The audio may stay the same, but some of the disc formatting may differ. In the case of OP, he didn't even get the original packaging/liner notes that would have come with the standard edition which is a big difference.


I agree that truth in advertising is never a bad thing, but at least Arkiv in my experience is up front about CD-Rs vs. regular CDs. The O.P experience is unique for me with Arkiv, and I don't recall his complaining that his player wouldn't handle CD-R. If a player won't play a CD-R the disc can be burned to a PC and the files can ultimately be extracted. Overall, I've had much less problems dealing with purchased CDs than I have with purchased vinyl and downloads. With vinyl the quality ratings are notoriously unreliable, and downloads are subject to dropouts depending on the quality of the Internet connection, and DRM. I had purchased a few downloads from ClassicsOnline and nearly lost my access to them when that streaming service folded. CDs are the safest media and Arkiv is the best site in my experience.


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## Klassik

Triplets said:


> I agree that truth in advertising is never a bad thing, but at least Arkiv in my experience is up front about CD-Rs vs. regular CDs.


I'm not a veteran ArkivMusic purchaser, but I'm just noticing things they can do to improve the buying experience. I value specialty classical dealers like them, but they need to offer service above and beyond what Amazon does to justify their existence. I hope they view this as constructive criticism if they're reading this. I'll give an example of where they can improve. There's a particular Deutsche Harmonia Mundi CD that I'm interested in. On Amazon, it's clearly listed as a made-on-demand CD-R. You know what you're getting. On Arkiv, it is listed as an ArkivCD reissue unlike OP's disc. Now I know that means it's probably a CD-R, but there's nothing on the site (at least the one I'm looking at) which indicates that it's a CD-R. A first time buyer who stumbles upon Arkiv through a search engine or something will probably have no idea what they are getting. They really ought to spell it out clearly. Again, to be fair to Arkiv, there are some other dealers who don't say anything at all about it being a reissue or CD-R so they are at least disclosing more than many other dealers. Still, I'd like for more clarity.



> Overall, I've had much less problems dealing with purchased CDs than I have with purchased vinyl and downloads. With vinyl the quality ratings are notoriously unreliable, and downloads are subject to dropouts depending on the quality of the Internet connection, and DRM. I had purchased a few downloads from ClassicsOnline and nearly lost my access to them when that streaming service folded. CDs are the safest media and Arkiv is the best site in my experience.


Totally agree, CD is the way to go. I have some CDs that are close to 35 years old and have never had one go bad. Having said that, I have had a few CD-Rs go bad. Most of these (that I know of at least) are from the 1990s, but that's still a lot newer than some of my regular CDs. I just feel more comfortable with a regular pressed CD for that reason amongst others.


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## Pugg

Klassik said:


> I'm not a veteran ArkivMusic purchaser, but I'm just noticing things they can do to improve the buying experience. I value specialty classical dealers like them, but they need to offer service above and beyond what Amazon does to justify their existence. I hope they view this as constructive criticism if they're reading this. I'll give an example of where they can improve. There's a particular Deutsche Harmonia Mundi CD that I'm interested in. On Amazon, it's clearly listed as a made-on-demand CD-R. You know what you're getting. On Arkiv, it is listed as an ArkivCD reissue unlike OP's disc. Now I know that means it's probably a CD-R, but there's nothing on the site (at least the one I'm looking at) which indicates that it's a CD-R. A first time buyer who stumbles upon Arkiv through a search engine or something will probably have no idea what they are getting. They really ought to spell it out clearly. Again, to be fair to Arkiv, there are some other dealers who don't say anything at all about it being a reissue or CD-R so they are at least disclosing more than many other dealers. Still, I'd like for more clarity.
> 
> Totally agree, CD is the way to go. I have some CDs that are close to 35 years old and have never had one go bad. Having said that, I have had a few CD-Rs go bad. Most of these (that I know of at least) are from the 1990s, but that's still a lot newer than some of my regular CDs. I just feel more comfortable with a regular pressed CD for that reason amongst others.


This sums it all up!:clap:


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## Vaneyes

OPie starts a thread to diss a retailer, with no interest in contacting them. Blah.


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## arpeggio

I have been dealing with ArkivMusic for many years.

On the few occasions there was a problem and they always gave me a refund or exchange. The instructions on how to get one are on the shipping label.


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