# A warning about the Sterling label



## ClassicalListener

I just received from *Sterling* what I thought would be a CD of _Wiener Sinfonie_ and other orchestral works by Paul Graener, however it turned out to be a cheap, worthless CD-R. I ordered it new from JPC.de and paid full price for it, thus I got ripped off. It is sad as this label puts out very interesting repertoire. CD-Rs are disposable and lack any value whatsoever though, so I won't be buying a single additional release from them.


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## Larkenfield

That’s too bad that happened. The disappointment is understandable. Did you ask for a refund? What’s their return policy? If the picture is an accurate reflection, it looks like the disc might have some bronzing which would make it unplayable.


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## ClassicalListener

Larkenfield said:


> That's too bad that happened. The disappointment is understandable. Did you ask for a refund? What's their return policy?


I wrote to JPC.de, however returning it is probably not feasible since we are on different continents and shipping costs would be too high. It is sad about *Sterling* which releases very interesting recordings, however there is no point in paying for and collecting CD-Rs.


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## Larkenfield

ClassicalListener said:


> I wrote to JPC.de, however returning it is probably not feasible since we are on different continents and shipping costs would be too high. It is sad about *Sterling* which releases very interesting recordings, however there is no point in paying for and collecting CD-Rs.


If they are reputable, they would take your word for the condition of the disc and offer a refund without you having to send it back. It seems like they didn't check the disc before sending it out to spot the defect. What a shame.


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## bigshot

I have lots of CD-Rs dating back at least ten years, and I have no problems with them. Just rip it as a backup if you're worried about it. In fringe repertoire, you're probably going to have to get used to CD-Rs. For some recordings there just isn't enough demand for a full replication run. The music is what matters, not the disc.


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## Becca

ClassicalListener said:


> I just received from *Sterling* what I thought would be a CD of _Wiener Sinfonie_ and other orchestral works by Paul Graener, however it turned out to be a cheap, worthless CD-R. I ordered it new from JPC.de and paid full price for it, thus I got ripped off. It is sad as this label puts out very interesting repertoire. CD-Rs are disposable and lack any value whatsoever though, so I won't be buying a single additional release from them.


I don't understand this, you were paying for the musical content of the disc. Unless the disc was unplayable, you got what you paid for. I don't see anywhere that you were guaranteed a specific type of media so the comment about 'worthless CD-R' is irrelevant.

Incidentally, the base cost of a CD used in stamping is probably much less than a CD-R so the comment is doubly irrelevant.


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## ClassicalListener

bigshot said:


> The music is what matters, not the disc.


No, the disc matters to me as well. At this point it is collectors like myself that purchase physical discs, and to us its material condition is paramount.

If I wanted just something to listen to, there are countless virtually free options available. If some labels don't want my $15 for a proper CD, they should refrain from ripping me off with a disposable junk substitute and content themselves with the $0.000001 worth of a stream.

And again no, I don't want to rip anything. I listen to my music on a stand-alone CD player and wish for my CDs to be perfectly playable 35 years from now.


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## Steerpike

bigshot said:


> I have lots of CD-Rs dating back at least ten years, and I have no problems with them. Just rip it as a backup if you're worried about it. In fringe repertoire, you're probably going to have to get used to CD-Rs. For some recordings there just isn't enough demand for a full replication run. The music is what matters, not the disc.


I've also purchased some music which, using your term, is 'fringe repertoire', and it was in the form of a standard CD-R disc burned by the label rather than an original professionally produced disc. In my case, the company concerned (Hyperion, I think) had been entirely open about what I could expect to recieve, and I've had no issues with it. I was pleased to be able to get hold of some music which would otherwise not have been available.


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## Bulldog

If it's a CD-R that's being sold, the seller needs to clearly say so. However, a CD-R is not worthless. I have many dozens going back over 10 years, and all them play splendidly.


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## ClassicalListener

Bulldog said:


> If it's a CD-R that's being sold, the seller needs to clearly say so.


As you can see, there is no warning that what you're purchasing is an inferior CD-R: https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/de...872-1944-Symphonie-op-110-Wiener/hnum/2539997.

They figure they'll just take people's money and deliver whatever they wish in place of what they paid for.


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## Becca

ClassicalListener said:


> They figure they'll just take people's money and deliver whatever they wish in place of what they paid for.


The people's money that they took was for the performance and making the recording, that's what they paid for, the cost of the actual media is somewhere around 1% of the total.


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## Larkenfield

ClassicalListener said:


> No, the disc matters to me as well. At this point it is collectors like myself that purchase physical discs, and to us its material condition is paramount.
> 
> If I wanted just something to listen to, there are countless virtually free options available. If some labels don't want my $15 for a proper CD, they should refrain from ripping me off with a disposable junk substitute and content themselves with the $0.000001 worth of a stream.
> 
> And again no, I don't want to rip anything. I listen to my music on a stand-alone CD player and wish for my CDs to be perfectly playable 35 years from now.


Sorry, I don't mean to be inconsiderate, but I don't go along with this attitude, and you sound extremely hard to please. To suggest that it's not the music that counts rather than it being a commercial CD as an _investment_ … no, I don't think so. You made it sound like the CD didn't play, but it actually does. I would not consider this being cheated by the record company. There's no gratitude being expressed for the music and what you do have. I don't think they did anything in bad faith, and without the CD-R, you would have had nothing at all. It's usually very easy to tell a very demanding person who's difficult to please. The record company thought you were primarily interested in the _music_ itself. Well, you'll know better the next time, and probably so will they with certain customers. This looks like a small CD company. How could they possibly make a profit if everything was commercial manufactured in bulk ahead of time?

http://www.sterlingcd.com


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## ClassicalListener

Larkenfield said:


> Sorry, I don't mean to be inconsiderate, but I don't go along with this attitude, and you sound extremely hard to please.


Really? If I bought X I'm hard to please because I got inferior substitute Y? CD-Rs exist because they are cheaper for record companies. As such, they shouldn't pass them off as the premium product for which they substitute.

People shouldn't have trouble grasping such basic facts.



Larkenfield said:


> I don't think they did anything in bad faith, and without the CD-R, you would have had nothing at all.


In all sincerity, people on this forum are... something else. Why do you have trouble grasping that X =\= Y? And no, without the CD I would have access to the exact same music on Tidal - AT NO ADDITIONAL COST. ABSOLUTELY FOR FREE!!! Really, what is wrong with people on here?


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## Bulldog

ClassicalListener said:


> In all sincerity, people on this forum are... something else. Why do you have trouble grasping that X =\= Y? And no, without the CD I would have access to the exact same music on Tidal - AT NO ADDITIONAL COST. ABSOLUTELY FOR FREE!!! Really, what is wrong with people on here?


It's the TC VIRUS! If you stick around here and post frequently, you'll get it too.

I noticed a couple of things when I clicked on your JPC link. There was a 50% discount, and a little I next to CD. There's a sentence there, but it was in German so I don't know the content.


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## Larkenfield

Sorry for your disappointment, but if I were interested in the music rather than an investment, I would feel privileged and grateful to buy one of their previously unreleased Sterling CDs. But that's obviously not the case with some of their demanding and disagreeable customers. Who could possibly tell the difference in the quality of sound? It's not exactly that the CD-R's are labeled in handwriting with an indelible pen.

"Men profess to be lovers of music, but for the most part they give no evidence in their opinions and lives that they have heard it." ―Henry David Thoreau


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## bigshot

ClassicalListener said:


> No, the disc matters to me as well. At this point it is collectors like myself that purchase physical discs, and to us its material condition is paramount.


You should find a record store you can shop at. Online purchases from different continents aren't going to work well for you.



ClassicalListener said:


> Really? If I bought X I'm hard to please because I got inferior substitute Y? CD-Rs exist because they are cheaper for record companies.


CD-Rs are not cheaper. But they don't require big pressing runs. To do a replicated disc, companies need to press thousands of copies, and warehouse and distribute them. For a title that sells only a few dozen copies a year, that isn't practical. They order 50 or 100 burned discs at a time from a professional duplicating house. They aren't inferior either. CD-Rs are guaranteed to play perfectly. They are bit perfect copies so they sound the same. Nothing in this world is guaranteed to last 35 years. If you expect that, you should implement a backup program.

At 50% off, I really don't see why you're complaining. It's clear that this title isn't even selling well as a CD-R. Odds are, it will go out of print and only be available as a download in the future. You're lucky you got a CD-R copy.

Thanks for reminding me about JPC. Found a big pile of multichannel SACDs on Pentatone and LSO for 6 euro each.


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## Art Rock

Obscure CD's from small labels? Expect CDR's by default - as was stated before, don't expect these labels to print thousands of them (and dump most of the lot).

My experience with Sterling has been very positive. About half a year ago, JPC.de had a tremendous offer for those interested in late romantic music: A Sterling Records box of Swiss composer Hans Huber's 8 symphonies on 5 CD's for under 8 euro. I knew and love these works, and could not resist snapping it up. It came, nicely wrapped in plastic, with the five CD's all in original jewel cases and wrapped in plastic too. When I unpacked it though.... I found that the CD with symphonies 1 and 7 was included twice, and the CD with symphonies 3 and 6 was missing. I contacted jpc, but all they could offer was to return the box for a refund (the box itself was sold out by then), which I declined because even for four CD's this was a bargain.

Without much hope, I contacted Sterling in Sweden (specialized in rarely recorded late romantic composers) via email, explaining what happened. This started a very pleasant and helpful conversation, and a day later they sent me the missing CD (and a promotion compilation CD) free of charge.


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## Triplets

CD Rs have commonly been used by Classical companies, such as ArkivMusik, Presto, and Hyperion, as an inexpensive way to keep low demand titles available. Most companies will indicate when they are selling CD Rs, and it does not appear on the link provided by the OP that this was done, so in that respect the company can be faulted.
The larger question is whether it matters if the disc is a CD R or the “real thing”. I remember buying a disc years ago from ArkivMusik that was a CD R and being angered when it arrived, along with the program notes that had been duplicated from a copy machine in black and white. I felt cheated, but the Arkiv catalog indicated that was a CD R and I hadn’t noted that. Gradually my anger dissipated as the disc played flawlessly and at least I had a treasurable recording that was otherwise unavailable. I have bought other CD Rs since, but then I did get one that was defective. Arkiv exchanged it for a functional copy but it was an unpleasant experience so I don’t buy them any more.
As others have pointed out, the sound quality is not inferior to the original, and as far as durability, I have many CDRs in my collection that I made in the nineties that are still going strong


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## ClassicalListener

-I ordered and paid for caviar but instead was served a big mac.
-"Weren't you hungry? Can't you eat big macs? Big macs also nourish the body."

The good people at TalkClassical.com.

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A final recap for any sane collector that might chance upon this forum: *Sterling* is passing off CD-Rs as real CDs and thus should be avoided.

In a world where an unlimited amount of music may be accessed online virtually for free, there is no raison d'être for inferior, utilitarian substitutes such as CD-Rs. When someone today pays good money for a CD of music they can access for free elsewhere, they wish to obtain a durable, worthwhile, intrinsically valuable collectible item of high material quality. Surreptitiously providing instead a CD-R is a very vile and nasty way of defrauding one of the relatively few individuals still willing to pay a fair amount for music. Any record company doing this merits the full wrath of music fanatics everywhere.

Goodbye.


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## Larkenfield

ClassicalListener said:


> -I ordered and paid for caviar but instead was served a big mac.
> -"Weren't you hungry? Can't you eat big macs? Big macs also nourish the body."
> 
> The good people at TalkClassical.com.
> 
> -----------
> 
> A final recap for any sane collector that may chance upon this forum: *Sterling* is passing off CD-Rs as real CDs and thus should be avoided.
> 
> In a world were you can access an infinite amount of music online virtually for free, there is no raison d'être for inferior, utilitarian substitutes such as CD-Rs. When someone pays good money for a CD today of music they can access for free elsewhere, they wish to obtain a durable, worthwhile, intrinsically valuable collectible item of high material quality. Surreptitiously providing instead a CD-R is a very low and nasty way of defrauding one of the relatively few individuals still willing to pay a fair amount for music. Any company doing this ought to receive the full wrath of music fanatics everywhere.
> 
> Goodbye.


Sorry you were so disappointed, but then you can pay them to have all of those CDs manufactured commercially and probably double or triple the price. CD-R's are produced on demand so the music companies are not bankrupted and can provide music that normally wouldn't be available to anyone. You probably wouldn't be able to tell yourself unless you read it on the label. So Sterling obviously feels that their discs represent the music. If this hadn't happened with Sterling, there probably would have been something else to complain about. Looks like Sterling has a very interesting catalog and they're easy to find online.


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## CnC Bartok

ClassicalListener said:


> -I ordered and paid for caviar but instead was served a big mac.
> -"Weren't you hungry? Can't you eat big macs? Big macs also nourish the body."
> 
> The good people at TalkClassical.com.
> 
> -----------
> 
> A final recap for any sane collector that may chance upon this forum: *Sterling* is passing off CD-Rs as real CDs and thus should be avoided.
> 
> In a world were you can access an infinite amount of music online virtually for free, there is no raison d'être for inferior, utilitarian substitutes such as CD-Rs. When someone pays good money for a CD today of music they can access for free elsewhere, they wish to obtain a durable, worthwhile, intrinsically valuable collectible item of high material quality. Surreptitiously providing instead a CD-R is a very low and nasty way of defrauding one of the relatively few individuals still willing to pay a fair amount for music. Any company doing this ought to receive the full wrath of music fanatics everywhere.
> 
> Goodbye.


Actually, you ordered and paid for a CD of music by an obscure German composer. From a tiny Swedish record company whose complete catalogue probably extends to no more than a couple of hundred titles. Not exactly the characteristics of an evil money-grabbing multinational?

Is your CD-R unusable? If so, return it. If it works, feel privileged that someone made the product for you.


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## KenOC

The order was not from Sterling, who does not sell directly, but from JPC.de, which handles the Sterling label. It seems to me that the seller (not Sterling in this case) should provide the information that the product is a CD-R, not a CD. I consider that important information.

I checked a couple of Sterling CDs on Amazon, and there was similarly no notice that these were CD-Rs - if indeed they were!


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## RockyIII

I don't understand what difference it makes. Isn't the digital content _identical_ on a mass produced CD and a limited run CD-R? Amazon sells some albums made that way.


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## KenOC

CD-Rs are not considered as "permanent" as CDs. I have had my own issues with them from time to time and avoid them these days -- quite easy because I have moved entirely to downloads and streaming anyway.

CD-Rs use a totally different technology from CDs, based on dye layers within the disc. The dye can deteriorate over time, especially if the CD-R is exposed to light. I have few but keep them in my sock drawer -- under the socks!


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## CnC Bartok

The manufacturing process is different. CDs are pressed, highly efficient if you're making thousands of copies. CD-R is burnt on a computer. Life expectancy on the latter is apparently less, but I've never had any problems, and I have CDs from the 1980s that are now bronzed and pitted and unplayable. Or our OP fears he's been sold a knock-off? Ok, some clarity from the seller might be of benefit, but it's not like he's been sold beef lasagne made with horsemeat......

Ken, you're looking remarkably gorgeous these days. New hair do??


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## ClassicalListener

CnC Bartok said:


> Is your CD-R unusable? If so, return it. If it works, feel privileged that someone made the product for you.


Yes, the CD-R is unusable as a collectible item, which is the use for which I intended my purchase. If I cared only for the music, I could have listened to the album for free online - which I had done previously to ordering the CD, and will continue to do with all Sterling releases. Instead of $15 per CD, they'll get thousandths of a cent from me, which is what they deserve for their dishonesty.

As for returning it, I live on another continent from the retailer.


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## KenOC

Sterling is handled by Amazon, at least in the US. Returns of any Amazon merchandise, even 3rd-party sellers, are free if bought from Amazon regardless of country of seller. They provide a US or USPS label (or you can print it from your computer) and you simply send it off. Not sure about Amazon in other countries.


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## CnC Bartok

ClassicalListener said:


> Yes, the CD-R is unusable as a collectible item, which is the use for which I intended my purchase. If I cared only for the music, I could have listened to the album for free online - which I had done previously to ordering the CD, and will continue to do with all Sterling releases. Instead of $15 per CD, they'll get thousandths of a cent from me, which is what they deserve for their dishonesty.
> 
> As for returning it, I live on another continent from the retailer.


I still don't get the problem. You see, most of my CDs were bought to be listened to. I thought that was their primary function.

Get in contact with Sterling, they are highly likely to respond.


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## KenOC

CnC Bartok said:


> Ken, you're looking remarkably gorgeous these days. New hair do??


That's one of the main characters from _Apocalypto_. Well-coiffed and nattily dressed, he's good with the ladies -- brings a whole new meaning to the phrase "steals their hearts."


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## Bulldog

KenOC said:


> That's one of the main characters from _Apocalypto_.


That was a great movie. I loved how they offed that guy toward the end of the movie.


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## KenOC

Bulldog said:


> That was a great movie. I loved how they offed that guy toward the end of the movie.


I thought it was just...mean. Our hero should simply have sat down and reasoned with him. Right?


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## bigshot

KenOC said:


> Sterling is handled by Amazon, at least in the US. Returns of any Amazon merchandise, even 3rd-party sellers, are free if bought from Amazon regardless of country of seller. They provide a US or USPS label (or you can print it from your computer) and you simply send it off. Not sure about Amazon in other countries.


Amazon wasn't selling it for 50% off. He got a stone cold bargain and then complains about it.


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## Bulldog

KenOC said:


> I thought it was just...mean. Our hero should simply have sat down and reasoned with him. Right?


Wrong. The man was a vicious warrior, and he died an appropriate death.


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## KenOC

Bulldog said:


> Wrong. The man was a vicious warrior, and he died an appropriate death.


What an example of male hyperagression! You're obviously over-testosteroned.

See? I'm learning this new lingo pretty quick. :lol:

Anyway, if you had even a _touch _of sensitivity, you'd realize that this fellow has a mother somewhere and probably a wife and children who depend on him. And he's only acting in accord with the dictates of his society, which require chasing down and killing any captive who escapes having his heart torn, still beating, from his bloody torso and his head, severed, sent bouncing down the thousand steps of the Great Pyramid of YoogaBooga (or whatever it's called). Yes, just a good citizen, blameless, doing his duty. Although I admit he approaches his civic task with some glee.


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## wkasimer

ClassicalListener said:


> Yes, the CD-R is unusable as a collectible item, which is the use for which I intended my purchase.


If that's the case, you might want to consider changing your handle from "ClassicalListener" to "ClassicalCollector".


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## Larkenfield

All this fuss over one disc. The question is whether any of these titles were ever released as a commercial CD, and I rather doubt that they had. If one were actually interested in the music rather than an investment, no disc other than a CD-R would have ever been available under any circumstances. Since the disc wasn’t sent back, perhaps it was an opportunity to enjoy the music for its own sake, for its value, and then be more careful when making future purchases.


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## Barbebleu

I can think of better investment opportunities than collecting CDs. I have a large collection of vinyl, CDs, cassettes and downloads. The medium doesn't matter but the music does. I really couldn't care how it arrives in my ears!


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## ClassicalListener

You people are all incredibly, appallingly stupid. No wonder you're going extinct and being colonized by third-world immigrants.

I'm sorry, but needed to get it off my chest. Goodbye for good!


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## KenOC

Bye! Don't take any wooden nickels.


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## bigshot

ClassicalListener said:


> I'm sorry, but needed to get it off my chest.












CD ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRR-RRRGHHH!!!!



ClassicalListener said:


> Goodbye for good!












Buh-BYE!


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## Guest

ClassicalListener said:


> You people are all incredibly, appallingly stupid. No wonder you're going extinct and being colonized by third-world immigrants.
> 
> I'm sorry, but needed to get it off my chest. Goodbye for good!


Thanks for coming.


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## Rogerx

ClassicalListener said:


> You people are all incredibly, appallingly stupid. No wonder you're going extinct and being colonized by third-world immigrants.
> 
> I'm sorry, but needed to get it off my chest. Goodbye for good!


That is a bit rude, at least, but thanks anyway.


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## eugeneonagain

Great to see a TC meltdown over something which isn't politics....well until the very end.

CD collectors of that ilk are best attended to by a psychiatrist.


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## geralmar

KenOC said:


> What an example of male hyperagression! You're obviously over-testosteroned.
> 
> See? I'm learning this new lingo pretty quick. :lol:
> 
> Anyway, if you had even a _touch _of sensitivity, you'd realize that this fellow has a mother somewhere and probably a wife and children who depend on him. And he's only acting in accord with the dictates of his society, which require chasing down and killing any captive who escapes having his heart torn, still beating, from his bloody torso and his head, severed, sent bouncing down the thousand steps of the Great Pyramid of YoogaBooga (or whatever it's called). Yes, just a good citizen, blameless, doing his duty. Although I admit he approaches his civic task with some glee.


I thought we weren't allowed to talk about Mel Gibson.


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## CnC Bartok

ClassicalListener said:


> You people are all incredibly, appallingly stupid. No wonder you're going extinct and being colonized by third-world immigrants.
> 
> I'm sorry, but needed to get it off my chest. Goodbye for good!


Absolutely. All these effing foreigners (Swedes in this case??) Coming over here, stealing our jobs, stealing our women? Or are the Swedes not swarthy enough for you?

Delighted to see that the refined and civilised world of "serious music" is not immune to the influx of bigoted gammon-complexioned members of the Cambridge University Netball Team.


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## Red Terror

ClassicalListener said:


> You people are all incredibly, appallingly stupid. No wonder you're going extinct and being colonized by third-world immigrants.
> 
> I'm sorry, but needed to get it off my chest. Goodbye for good!


Well, I never!


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## CnC Bartok

Red Terror said:


> Well, I never!


It appears Greybridge still needs a new school bully.


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