# Mozart K593 Str Quintet



## PlaySalieri

Just listened to this for first time in ages - paired with the superb K515 on my Brilliant classics set.

lovely work - fine 1st 2nd and 3rd mvts and v unusual last movt - not sure what to make of it. must listen again.

Not anywhere near the great quintets but very fine.

what is your view?

any recommended recordings?


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## Pugg

It's a great piece, you can't go wrong with the Amadeus Quartet/ Cecil Aronowitz (viola)


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## Ras

stomanek said:


> Just listened to this for first time in ages - paired with the superb K515 on my Brilliant classics set.
> 
> lovely work - fine 1st 2nd and 3rd mvts and v unusual last movt - not sure what to make of it. must listen again.
> 
> Not anywhere near the great quintets but very fine.
> 
> what is your view?
> 
> any recommended recordings?


My favorite recording is the one with *Arthur Grumiaux's String Trio with friends on Decca - I have it in a box with Mozart's String Quartets played by the Italian Quartet *- which is also a good recording btw. :









I checked on amazon and it looks like the recording I have is out of print - but there are several different packageings still in print - I can post links if needed.


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## Ras

Mozart's K. 593 String Quintet in D major.

-Scored for two violin, two violas and a Cello - (unlike Boccherini's Quintet which have a cello added to a sting quartet to make a quintet).

-Origin: Composed in the last year of Wolfgang's life - December 1790.

- Dedicated to a Johann Tost and probably played in it's first performance with Haydn in the line-up!

-And further: the clever scholars say the music has some haydnesque-flavors like the slow introduction to the first movement.

- Two slightly different versions of the finale exists.

What I have written is based on this book which is always handy : 
https://www.amazon.com/Compleat-Moz...&sr=1-1-fkmr0&keywords=complete+mozart+zaslaw


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## Josquin13

"Not anywhere near the great quintets but very fine.

what is your view?"

What "great quintets" are you referring to? Do you mean Mozart's better known K. 515 & K. 516 Quintets? If so, I disagree. I think K. 593 is every bit their equal. It's a 'desert island' chamber work in my collection, along with K. 515. But if you're not talking about Mozart's other string quintets, which ones then? The only other string quintets that can I can think of that could arguably be named in the same class as Mozart's are Brahms Op. 111 quintet, and Schubert's.

"any recommended recordings?"

Yes, in a fire, I'd grab the following four recordings, each for different reasons:

Arthur Grumiaux & co.: a classic:






The Orlando Quartet, with violist Nobuko Imai--this may be my favorite modern instrument version:






The Chilingirian Quartet--their final recording before calling it quits as a quartet. They include both endings to the K. 593 Quintet. The Chilingirians have long been one of my favorite groups for Mozart's quartets, and their interpretation offers a contrasting view to both the Orlandos and Grumiaux, which is well worth hearing:






Finally, last but not least, my favorite recording on period instruments, from the group Hausmusik:


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## Mandryka

The adagio of 593 is very good, as good as Mozart gets I'd say.

As far as recordings go, I'm enjoying the new one with Capucon and Hagen and Ibragimova and Caussé and someone else, it's well recorded, just at the level of sound, of sensuality, it's a great pleasure to hear, each instrument's contribution is well placed in the stereo image; and I remember also liking Tatrai in the later quintets.

I'm not keen on much of Mozart's final music, and this is a 1790 piece. I'm not sure I want to hear the naive third movement of 593 ever again.


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## PlaySalieri

*What "great quintets" are you referring to? Do you mean Mozart's better known K. 515 & K. 516 Quintets? If so, I disagree. I think K. 593 is every bit their equal.*

yes I was thinking of k515/516


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## PlaySalieri

Mandryka said:


> The adagio of 593 is very good, as good as Mozart gets I'd say.
> 
> As far as recordings go, I'm enjoying the new one with Capucon and Hagen and Ibragimova and Caussé and someone else, it's well recorded, just at the level of sound, of sensuality, it's a great pleasure to hear, each instrument's contribution is well placed in the stereo image; and I remember also liking Tatrai in the later quintets.
> 
> I'm not keen on much of Mozart's final music, and this is a 1790 piece. I'm not sure I want to hear the naive third movement of 593 ever again.


Yes it struck me that the adagio is the strongest movement.

naive 3rd movement? not sure what you mean. It has a delightful middle section.


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## PlaySalieri

I have the Orlando Qt version on Brilliant Classics - assume it is the same as above.

think it could be better though - some more refined string playing needed, maybe the grumiaux then.


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## Kieran

I have that Brilliant classics boxset, I love it! I'm listening to it now, actually, the Haydn String Quartets, #1, K387.

I think the standings of K515 and K516 are secure, but K593 and K614 are due an upgrade. Kinda like the later string quartets. They're due a reappraisal...


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## PlaySalieri

seems I have barchet qt on an old LP playing K593 - have not heard yet but expect it will be special.


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## PlaySalieri

The Barchet quartet rec I have on vox turned out to be sore on the ears - edgy - quite horrible. It's a reprocessed mono rec for stereo - couldnt listen to it. But I found my great recording - the budapest qt on philips LP - 50s rec. Had all the qualities.


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## fluteman

stomanek said:


> Just listened to this for first time in ages - paired with the superb K515 on my Brilliant classics set.
> 
> lovely work - fine 1st 2nd and 3rd mvts and v unusual last movt - not sure what to make of it. must listen again.
> 
> Not anywhere near the great quintets but very fine.
> 
> what is your view?
> 
> any recommended recordings?


I agree with those who have already recommended Grumiaux et al., and another great choice is the Griller String Quartet with William Primrose.


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## Josquin13

"But I found my great recording - the budapest qt on philips LP - 50s rec. Had all the qualities."

You find the Orlando Quartet lacks refinement, in comparison to the Budapest Quartet? Having heard the Budapest play late Beethoven SQs in the 1950s, often "painfully out of tune & rhythmically out of sync", as critic James Leonard wrote, I would imagine it's the other way around. But I haven't heard their Mozart String Quintets from the 50s.

I'd like to hear Alina Ibragimova & co. play KV 593 & the rest of the quintets too--are those recordings only available on DVD?

Here's a You Tube post of Ibragimova & co. performing Mozart's String Quintet in C major KV 515 at the Delft Music Festival, which is a favorite of mine:


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## Mandryka

stomanek said:


> The Barchet quartet rec I have on vox turned out to be sore on the ears - edgy - quite horrible. It's a reprocessed mono rec for stereo - couldnt listen to it. But I found my great recording - the budapest qt on philips LP - 50s rec. Had all the qualities.


This is with Walter Trampler is it?


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## Mandryka

Josquin13 said:


> I'd like to hear Alina Ibragimova & co. play KV 593 & the rest of the quintets too--are those recordings only available on DVD?


Yes, I've ripped the audio from the DVD so I can play it through my stereo. It's good to see they performed it together in concert rather than just coming together for the recording sessions -- there is a sense of responsive ensemble -- but I guess you're always going to have to work at making a team in this music because of the extra viola.


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## PlaySalieri

Josquin13 said:


> "But I found my great recording - the budapest qt on philips LP - 50s rec. Had all the qualities."
> 
> You find the Orlando Quartet lacks refinement, in comparison to the Budapest Quartet? Having heard the Budapest play late Beethoven SQs in the 1950s, often "painfully out of tune & rhythmically out of sync", as critic James Leonard wrote, I would imagine it's the other way around. But I haven't heard their Mozart String Quintets from the 50s.
> 
> I'd like to hear Alina Ibragimova & co. play KV 593 & the rest of the quintets too--are those recordings only available on DVD?
> 
> Here's a You Tube post of Ibragimova & co. performing Mozart's String Quintet in C major KV 515 at the Delft Music Festival, which is a favorite of mine:


I dont tend to go by what critics say - preferring the evidence of my own ears. However - I don't know the Beethoven recordings so can't comment on those. I suspect the budapest qt recordings are disregarded by many listeners because they are mono.


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## PlaySalieri

K593 Budapest Qt.


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## PlaySalieri

Josquin13 said:


> "But I found my great recording - the budapest qt on philips LP - 50s rec. Had all the qualities."
> 
> You find the Orlando Quartet lacks refinement, in comparison to the Budapest Quartet? Having heard the Budapest play late Beethoven SQs in the 1950s, often "painfully out of tune & rhythmically out of sync", as critic James Leonard wrote, I would imagine it's the other way around. But I haven't heard their Mozart String Quintets from the 50s.
> 
> I'd like to hear Alina Ibragimova & co. play KV 593 & the rest of the quintets too--are those recordings only available on DVD?
> 
> Here's a You Tube post of Ibragimova & co. performing Mozart's String Quintet in C major KV 515 at the Delft Music Festival, which is a favorite of mine:


It looks like we are going to have to disagree! I find Ibragmiovas sound lacks the projection of a high singing tone I think is necessary for this part.


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## Genoveva

My original set of the Mozart String Quintets was the Julliard SQ recordings made in 1967. I don't have the oiginal CDs but as far as I know the additional viola performer was Walter Trampler. 

I was not all that keen on some of those recordings as I thought the microphones were placed too close to the performers. 

Some two years ago I decided to acquire a further set and selected the Grumiaux Trio plus Arpad Gérecz (violin) & Max Lesueur (viola). This is better in my opinion, with a very clear sound and excellent performances. My favourite of the 6 string quintets is No 4, K 516, but K 593 (No 5) is good too.


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## Mandryka

stomanek said:


> It looks like we are going to have to disagree! I find Ibragmiovas sound lacks the projection of a high singing tone I think is necessary for this part.


It's absolutely true that Emil Hauser sings forth like a he's the star in an opera! Whether this is "necessary for this part" I wouldn't like to say -- he certainly does grab your attention. I think the modern idea is that the parts are more equal in importance.


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## PlaySalieri

Mandryka said:


> It's absolutely true that Emil Hauser sings forth like a he's the star in an opera! Whether this is "necessary for this part" I wouldn't like to say -- he certainly does grab your attention. I think the modern idea is that the parts are more equal in importance.


Maybe its the recording - I do like Ibragimova - but her sound is subdued in this performance


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## Josquin13

Alina Ibragimova plays both period & modern violins, interchangeably, so she's very well attuned to 18th century conventions, and to the different characteristics & potentialities of the older violins, bows & strings--i.e., what Mozart would have expected to hear. Therefore, as always, it becomes a bit of a 'transcription' translating these earlier modes to modern violin methodology, bows, & strings. And no, I wouldn't have expected her to sound anything like (or 'project' to the same degree as) the first violinist of the Budapest Qt., whose approach is decidedly more late 'romantic' or Brahmsian sounding (than Ibragimova's). I expect it's quite deliberate on her part (although I've never heard her play Brahms...), as I don't think you could even pull that off on an 18th century violin, bow, & strings. Indeed, I would say their performance is decidedly HIP, yet on modern instruments.

I did listen to the first movement of the Budapest Qt. recording (& plan to go back to hear the rest), and yes, it is better than their late Beethoven; yet, I still hear notes that sound out of tune to me. I don't see how that can be a subjective opinion (though yes, some listeners probably do allow for a greater leeway or margin of error than others), or how a critic like James Leonard, who describes the Budapest Qt. as "painfully out of tune" could be offering only a strictly subjective view (though granted he was speaking about the Budapest's 'live' Library of Congress recordings from the 1950s, which are wretched performances). Out of curiosity, I checked with my old notes of conversations I had long ago with a composer friend of mine (in the 1980s), who I expect would know, and found that he once told me the Budapest Quartet played on "out of tune instruments"... so, did they not tune their instruments properly? is that what I'm hearing. Hence, there must be some truth to what my ears are objecting to. Personally, it tends to distract my mind away from the music, & what I find good about the Budapest Qt.'s interpretations. Apparently others don't mind, & if so, I'm sure there's much to enjoy & value about these performances. They're just not for me.


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## PlaySalieri

Josquin13 said:


> Alina Ibragimova plays both period & modern violins, interchangeably, so she's very well attuned to 18th century conventions, and to the different characteristics & potentialities of the older violins, bows & strings--i.e., what Mozart would have expected to hear. Therefore, as always, it becomes a bit of a 'transcription' translating these earlier modes to modern violin methodology, bows, & strings. And no, I wouldn't have expected her to sound anything like (or 'project' to the same degree as) the first violinist of the Budapest Qt., whose approach is decidedly more late 'romantic' or Brahmsian sounding (than Ibragimova's). I expect it's quite deliberate on her part (although I've never heard her play Brahms...), as I don't think you could even pull that off on an 18th century violin, bow, & strings. Indeed, I would say their performance is decidedly HIP, yet on modern instruments.
> 
> I did listen to the first movement of the Budapest Qt. recording (& plan to go back to hear the rest), and yes, it is better than their late Beethoven; yet, I still hear notes that sound out of tune to me. I don't see how that can be a subjective opinion (though yes, some listeners probably do allow for a greater leeway or margin of error than others), or how a critic like James Leonard, who describes the Budapest Qt. as "painfully out of tune" could be offering only a strictly subjective view (though granted he was speaking about the Budapest's 'live' Library of Congress recordings from the 1950s, which are wretched performances). Out of curiosity, I checked with my old notes of conversations I had long ago with a composer friend of mine (in the 1980s), who I expect would know, and found that he once told me the Budapest Quartet played on "out of tune instruments"... so, did they not tune their instruments properly? is that what I'm hearing. Hence, there must be some truth to what my ears are objecting to. Personally, it tends to distract my mind away from the music, & what I find good about the Budapest Qt.'s interpretations. Apparently others don't mind, & if so, I'm sure there's much to enjoy & value about these performances. They're just not for me.


perhaps intonation does slip occasionally - but I still think it is masterful interpretation and beautiful, sound overall. 
I did find this review that perhaps sums up my view on the budpaest qt:

https://www.allmusic.com/album/schubert-string-quintet-brahms-3-string-quartets-mw0001866522


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## KenOC

The Budapest Quartet started showing its age (or the ages of its members) after the very early 1950s. You can easily hear the intonation problems in their final stereo recordings of the Beethoven quartets when compared with their mono recordings of a few years prior. Their Wiki entry has some material on this, I seem to remember.


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## Mandryka

This one is worth hearing


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## PlaySalieri

Mandryka said:


> This one is worth hearing
> 
> View attachment 102091


Th recordings with Trampler on 2nd viola were made in 1957. Same recordings that I have found so attractive - they also did them in stereo in 1965 but I have not heard them. The ones with Katims are supposed to be the best - rec pre 1950.


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## Mandryka

stomanek said:


> The ones with Katims are supposed to be the best - rec pre 1950.


I've heard this said too, but the people who say it seem to be thinking of technique -- intonation and ensemble. Conception, and musicality, is, I think, very interesting in this later recording, and the sound is revealing, especially the balance of the sound.

(similar things could be said of Richter, and maybe Arrau.)

I'm not sure, by the way, what the date are of this one is.


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## PlaySalieri

Mandryka said:


> I've heard this said too, but the people who say it seem to be thinking of technique -- intonation and ensemble. Conception, and musicality, is, I think, very interesting in this later recording, and the sound is revealing, especially the balance of the sound.
> 
> (similar things could be said of Richter, and maybe Arrau.)
> 
> I'm not sure, by the way, what the date are of this one is.


I haven't heard the earlier recordings yet. The CD you show is the same perf I am listening to and was recorded in 1957 according to:

https://www.discogs.com/artist/517145-Budapest-String-Quartet

the discog in wikipedia is incomplete.

There were Beethoven quartets rec in the early 50s - and I would think these would be worth listening to - then some later stereo recs of Beethoven and Mozart in the mid 60s for columbia (US) which I think have attracted all the criticism.


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## Genoveva

stomanek said:


> I haven't heard the earlier recordings yet. The CD you show is the same perf I am listening to and was recorded in 1957 according to:
> 
> https://www.discogs.com/artist/517145-Budapest-String-Quartet
> 
> the discog in wikipedia is incomplete.
> 
> There were Beethoven quartets rec in the early 50s - and I would think these would be worth listening to - then some later stereo recs of Beethoven and Mozart in the mid 60s for columbia (US) which I think have attracted all the criticism.


I don't know if it might be of any use, but according to the wiki article on the Budapest String Quartet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_String_Quartet) it gives the following regards K 593:

Mozart: String Quintet No. 5 in D major, K 593:

with Milton Katims: rec 1946 [2V=EO]; CD reissue Sony SM3K-46527.
with Walter Trampler: stereo rec 1965-1966 [2V=AS]; LP Col D3S-747; CD reissue Sony CSCR 8346.

...

As I said earlier, the Grumiaux version is the best that I have.


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## PlaySalieri

Genoveva said:


> I don't know if it might be of any use, but according to the wiki article on the Budapest String Quartet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_String_Quartet) it gives the following regards K 593:
> 
> Mozart: String Quintet No. 5 in D major, K 593:
> 
> with Milton Katims: rec 1946 [2V=EO]; CD reissue Sony SM3K-46527.
> with Walter Trampler: stereo* rec 1965-1966* [2V=AS]; LP Col D3S-747; CD reissue Sony CSCR 8346.
> 
> ...
> 
> As I said earlier, the Grumiaux version is the best that I have.


That information is incorrect (bolded).

The mono recording of k593 with trampler I possess on and early 60s Phlips was rec 1957 ( it states this on the LP label ). The BQ did record the mozart quintets in the mid 60s in stereo and this is what the Wikipedia entry refers to - but it is an incomplete discog as it fails to acknowledge the 1957 mono recordings.


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## rff9

*1978 Odyssey Records LP has contradictory information.*

I recently bought an Odyssey box set from 1978 that has very contradictory information on the record labels and back cover of the box. The back of the box only states Alexander Schneider as the second violinist and states that all of the Mozart viola quintets are recordings from the mid-1950's. However, the labels have very different information. First of all, four performances have either Jac Gorodetzky or Edgar Ortenberg as second violinist. These had to occur in the 1940's, based on other information I consulted, so the information about only A. Schneider and the mid-1950's date only applies to one or two of the six quintets.

Archive.org has other complete recordings of the same quintets performed by the Budapest String Quartet and issued on the Columbia label, rather than Odyssey. I'm now trying to figure out the dates and performers. Some of the timings are very different that the Odyssey 1978 re-issue I referred to above. This all gets very hard to unravel.

I finally figured out the "mystery". The Odyssey box of 1978 has the correct information on each of the labels and on the runouts but the back of the box has some major errors: the second violinist and violist plus the years of performance and the erroneous statement that the Odyssey release is identical to the previous Columbia LP. which it's not. The later Sony CD (with the Mozart Haydn quartets plus the viola quintets) has the same quintet performances as the Odyssey 1978 LP, by the way.



PlaySalieri said:


> That information is incorrect (bolded).
> 
> The mono recording of k593 with trampler I possess on and early 60s Phlips was rec 1957 ( it states this on the LP label ). The BQ did record the mozart quintets in the mid 60s in stereo and this is what the Wikipedia entry refers to - but it is an incomplete discog as it fails to acknowledge the 1957 mono recordings.


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## hammeredklavier

I wish this was finished


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## Merl

Like Jos, I have the period Hausmusik recording which I think is outstanding. The clarity of recorded sound and the inner detail of this one are joyful. Monica Huggett's playing, throughout, is simply wonderful.


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## Mandryka

hammeredklavier said:


> I wish this was finished


Yes, good find.


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