# Medtner's Piano Sonatas, what do you think of them?



## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

For a work like Sonata Reminiscenza, it really depends on how it's played. I can't stand Evgeny Kissin or Nikolai Demedenko's performances of the piece, they play it too SLOW. The piece should be under 14 minutes long, not dragged out to 16-18 minutes! 

I'm trying to think if I want to learn it. I sometimes think its a really beautiful and moving piece that can really stun in the way that many short and simple pieces can, but on a grander scale. Sometimes though, I feel like not enough is happening in it, that it gets too static. This is why I can't stand a slow performance of it. Still, the piece has some really amazing ideas in it. I want to call it a Great piece of music, but I'm not certain yet that it is deserving of the designation.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Sorry Clavi, Reminiscenza is my least favorite Medtner sonata.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

_clavi_, note the title of the work. Remembering a bear attack is usually not considered a reminiscence. Remambering a fine slow afternoon when the fish were biting only often enough to keep you awake - that is a reminiscence. If you apply that logic to Demedenko's performance...

Hey, maybe you have found a Medtner work you don't like!

:devil:


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Hey, maybe you have found a Medtner work you don't like!
> 
> :devil:


Well, that and the latter half of the 3rd violin sonata, the Piano Quintet, and parts of the 3rd concerto, and parts of the epic Night Wind.

I think that Medtner occasionally took a little too much from late Beethoven, who I find also rather static and boring. He worshipped Beethoven and perhaps was impressed with the late works as well...


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

violadude said:


> Sorry Clavi, Reminiscenza is my least favorite Medtner sonata.


I have to agree with you. Though I think actually that the Night Wind is the one I get the most tired of.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

The question that then remains is this: why is it the most goddamned popular? Why are the super interesting skazki not known over static sonata remniscenza? Perhaps because it gives the illusion of "transcendency." That was never my favorite word for describing music anyway...


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

My problem with it is that to me it seems like it would work better as a miniature, if it was just that section at the beginning that everyone thinks of I think it would be a nice miniature. But all that stuff in the middle starts to sound meandering, and out of place, random...at least to me.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

violadude said:


> My problem with it is that to me it seems like it would work better as a miniature, if it was just that section at the beginning that everyone thinks of I think it would be a nice miniature. But all that stuff in the middle starts to sound meandering, and out of place, random...at least to me.


Its so true. I think it could be like Fur Elise or Melody in F or something really popular like that if it were cut down. Its quite the tonal idea, that cool beginning section, but the rest is way too long. Take the sonata out of it and you'd have a tidy little number.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

The truth of the matter is, I want more Medtner. But at length, I get tired of him, he makes his development sections too long like Rachmaninoff said or something. A composer that approaches so near to my ideal with a few flaws that I'll just have to live with...


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

clavichorder said:


> The truth of the matter is, I want more Medtner. But at length, I get tired of him, he makes his development sections too long like Rachmaninoff said or something. A composer that approaches so near to my ideal with a few flaws that I'll just have to live with...


The long, elaborate developments are what I like about him...lol


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## Klavierspieler (Jul 16, 2011)

Hmmm... I only listened to it once (with Richter) but I remember quite enjoying it.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Klavierspieler said:


> Hmmm... I only listened to it once (with Richter) but I remember quite enjoying it.


I haven't heard that recording, but I know that Richter has a way with slow. Maybe it's dynamics? Pedaling? ?


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## Klavierspieler (Jul 16, 2011)

Music starts at around 0:47.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Richter was a bit past it there.

I like your current sig.


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## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

Yes, reminiscence.

I think Medtner captures it well in _Sonata Reminiscenza_. He allows us to meditate on a stagnating thought until it consumes us. Shifting the mood would destroy this swelling thought process, and ultimately force the listener out of meditation. Though not often acknowledged as such, Medtner can be a great tone painter for the piano. Many of his _Skazki_ ("La Campanella", for example) demonstrate this. Think of _Sonata Reminiscenza_ as a longer, slightly-more drawn out (as was Medtner's intent) version of one of these _Skazki_. It's long, yes, but some of the ideas and development in the piece is absolutely lovely. Take the beginning, for instance - who could write a more hypnotizing, yet at the same time utterly solemn introduction? One can't complain about the subsequent melody of course, with its typical Medtner-ian nostalgic character. Then there is this violent development, with both hands building to a pronounced and full-sounding climax. Probably my favorite part of the piece. When the melody reenters, it grows sweeter and more sure of itself, even modulating into a major key. The ending is odd, I'll give you that. At least the opening motive returns - sometimes I wish Medtner had done a little more with it than just a mere repetition.

Maybe Gilels' performance is a little more suited to your tastes, clavi? Especially since it clocks in at less than 13 minutes long. He is a pianist that will never let meditation give way to laziness or let the ideas meander to the point that they no longer fit together. I would much rather hear Richter in his prime, but I agree with Klavierspieler that the rare footage of Richter playing Medtner on YouTube also shows some incredible insights.

I think the Sonata I've grown most fond of recently is surprisingly, _Minacciosa_. Most of the others are very good too. _Night Wind_ I am fascinated with, but admittedly is a little too ambitious for its own good.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Air said:


> Yes, reminiscence.
> 
> I think Medtner captures it well in _Sonata Reminiscenza_. He allows us to meditate on a stagnating thought until it consumes us. Shifting the mood would destroy this swelling thought process, and ultimately force the listener out of meditation. Though not often acknowledged as such, Medtner can be a great tone painter for the piano. Many of his _Skazki_ ("La Campanella", for example) demonstrate this. Think of _Sonata Reminiscenza_ as a longer, slightly-more drawn out (as was Medtner's intent) version of one of these _Skazki_. It's long, yes, but some of the ideas and development in the piece is absolutely lovely. Take the beginning, for instance - who could write a more hypnotizing, yet at the same time utterly solemn introduction? One can't complain about the subsequent melody of course, with its typical Medtner-ian nostalgic character. Then there is this violent development, with both hands building to a pronounced and full-sounding climax. Probably my favorite part of the piece. When the melody reenters, it grows sweeter and more sure of itself, even modulating into a major key. The ending is odd, I'll give you that. At least the opening motive returns - sometimes I wish Medtner had done a little more with it than just a mere repetition.
> 
> ...


Minacciosa is one of my favorites as well.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

violadude said:


> Minacciosa is one of my favorites as well.


I've just gotten into it, it has thick textures, I can see myself getting into it more. My favorites so far are G Minor, A minor, and Sonata Skazka. I still have not listened to Sonata Idylle, or the F minor op. 5 enough. And yes Air, I like Gilels' interpretation. He one of my favorite pianists, I wish he did more Medtner. Berezovsky is my favorite pianist for Medtner so far.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

clavichorder said:


> I've just gotten into it, it has thick textures, I can see myself getting into it more. My favorites so far are G Minor, A minor, and Sonata Skazka. I still have not listened to Sonata Idylle, or the F minor op. 5 enough. And yes Air, I like Gilels' interpretation. He one of my favorite pianists, I wish he did more Medtner. Berezovsky is my favorite pianist for Medtner so far.


What do you think of Tragica?


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

violadude said:


> What do you think of Tragica?


Also a good sonata. And I like sonata triad in A flat a lot as well.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

clavichorder said:


> Also a good sonata. And I like sonata triad in A flat a lot as well.


With your permission, I say we just make this a thread discussing Medtners piano sonatas in general lol


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

violadude said:


> With your permission, I say we just make this a thread discussing Medtners piano sonatas in general lol


Its a done deal!


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

The Sonata Idyll is one that I haven't really gotten into yet either. It sounds so tame after all the rest of them!


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## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

violadude said:


> With your permission, I say we just make this a thread discussing Medtners piano sonatas in general lol


With clavi's permission, I can change the name of this thread to such.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Air said:


> With clavi's permission, I can change the name of this thread to such.


Permission granted


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

The thing I love most about Medtner's sonatas is that they are so chalk full of thematic material and it is very often hidden amongst a busy sea of notes. It's pretty much impossible to catch everything in the first few listens, which makes for maximum enjoyment when it comes to repeated listening.

Take the Sonata in g minor for instance. That sonata has got to have at least 5 or 6 different themes at least(melodic or rhythmic) and there's practically not a single moment where at least one of the themes is not in there somewhere. 

You could say that about most of the sonatas actually, I just picked the g minor one because I just listened to it.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Medtner has a way of getting jazzy sometimes in the amped up coda-esque parts of his sonatas and concertos and even skazki. His rhythms start getting really syncopated. Right now, even though I'm baffled by the work as a whole, I have the 3rd concerto going through my head so I can't conjure up specifics, but the A minor sonata has a terrific ending to look out for.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

I'm interested in finding the best recording of the Night Wind sonata. I, like Air, am fascinated with the work and think that saying excess of ambition in terms of length and concept, is the best way to put the main flaw of the piece. I want to find a recording that minimizes my perception of this flaw. So far I've listened to Hamelin's, Milne's, and Tozer's. Hamelin's is quite fast, which I like since it cuts the length. Tozer's is the most colorful of the three, it seems.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Here's a different performance:


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

maybe you should put some examples of the sonatas for the people who is not well versed into Medtner's repertoire. Just a suggestion.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

The thread was modified from Sonata Remniscenza to all of Medtner's sonatas.

This Sonata Tragica by Earl Wild is superb:





Sonata Minnacosia, another Sonata mentioned by both Air and violadude, probably Medner's most dark and busy sonata, its a wild piece





The G minor sonata rivals Remniscenza as the most popular, played up very intensely by Gilels, it might be a little too intense of a performance, Medtner's wife apparently hate Gilel's performance, but being a Gilels, fan I really like it, although for about 16 minutes, the Gilelsian intensity may be too much.





And here is a more melodic major key sonata, a shorter piece, Sonata Triad, 3rd sonata in C major.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

violadude said:


> The thing I love most about Medtner's sonatas is that they are so chalk full of thematic material and it is very often hidden amongst a busy sea of notes. It's pretty much impossible to catch everything in the first few listens, which makes for maximum enjoyment when it comes to repeated listening.
> 
> Take the Sonata in g minor for instance. That sonata has got to have at least 5 or 6 different themes at least(melodic or rhythmic) and there's practically not a single moment where at least one of the themes is not in there somewhere.
> 
> You could say that about most of the sonatas actually, I just picked the g minor one because I just listened to it.


I agree with this. A very colorful bunch of notes, with themes in the middle . Personally, I like this kind of style. Some people don't.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

aleazk said:


> I agree with this. A very colorful bunch of notes, with themes in the middle . Personally, I like this kind of style. Some people don't.


I would think you would, being a Ravel fan, when you put it that way. Medtner Sonatas are certainly less colorful than the Skazki, they lose some of their immediate color appeal in their scope and length, and he focuses more on theme development. In some of his pieces, the theme development seems like a vague but often entertaining process of sneaking in as many quotes of the theme as possible, but in others it seems quite purposeful.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

I've just acquired Hamelin's complete Medtner Sonatas. I like how he does Minnacosia. I can see why Medtner called it his most contemporary creation. Apparently it was written as a sort of tonally functional and angsty caricature of modern music of the time. Glazunov called Medtner the defender of the eternal laws of art. He disdained modernism and stoically remained unchanged from an initially very innovative beginning (that demonstrated contribution at home in the forefront of progressive music of the time), but in this day and age, those politics and ideologies don't have to get in the way of appreciating the music of Medtner and his contemporaries.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Most recently, I've had Sonata Ballade and the A Minor "War Sonata" going throught my head. I think that the A minor sonata is one of the most well put together things I've ever heard. It has a terrific ending, great culminative emotional impact. The Sonata Ballade on the other hand, has a really terrific first movement that could be a great sonata all on its own, but Medtner revised it and added the next two movements that includes a fugue. I find that part very interesting as well, but I almost think that the piece would be considered greater if it weren't assessed for all three movements, but just for the first one, which has a terrific theme and feel to it.

I might consider the A minor sonata my favorite for the time being, that ending is just so powerful.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Here is Medtner's War Sonata, my current musical obsession, for anyone interested


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

I've also decided, in vein of the original title of this thread, that I think highly of Sonata Remniscenza. It is quite a moving piece. Sometimes it just depends on the day.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

I definitely think Sonata Skazki would have been the best entry point for me and others who appreciate Beethoven and classicism. Very concisely written.

Hamelin does a brilliant job at it:






Sonata Pastorale is not often talked about, very pleasant listen:


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