# For Bruckner addicts only: Bruckner top Recordings per Symphony



## Pestouille

I would be interested to have various proposals concerning the best recordings for one or more or all symphon(ies). Could you motivate the choice made, this could lead to interesting debates. But please do not say this symphony is better than another... or Bruckner symphony is too long. The real question being: What makes your choice the best one?

Thanks for your input


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## joen_cph

Overall & shortly speaking, my preferences are:

00 Inbal, Frankfur

0 Inbal, Frankfurt

1 Inbal, Frankfurt; Abbado WPO, Skrowaczewski

2 Inbal, Frankfurt; Wand; Skrowaczewski 

3 Inbal, Frankfurt; Celibidache DG; Skrowaczewski

4 Konwitschny, Gewandhaus; Barenboim,teldec; Karajan EMI; Celibidache DG; Abendroth, Leipzig RSO; Suitner, berlin clssics 
(these, except perhaps Karajan´s monumentally slow, are all more passioned than Böhm/decca and Klemperer/EMI)

5 Barenboim, teldec; Welser-Möst, EMI; Karajan, DG

6 Blomstedt; Skrowaczewski; Celibidache EMI

7 Karajan EMI; Karajan DG; Barenboim, teldec; D´Avalos, asv; Inbal, Frankfurt; Blomstedt, Gewandhaus 

8 Haitink,CtGeb 1981; Furtwängler 1944; Wand, HamburgSO

9 Jochum DG (slightly more fluent and temperamental than the EMI); Furtwängler 1944; Skrowaczewski


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## Pestouille

Thanks Joen for your input

00 Inbal, Frankfur
Inbal is certainly a good choice for the 'nullte'. I would add Tintner too, his 'Nullte', he found the real articulation for this symphony that I like.
0 Inbal is a clear choice

1 Skrowaczewski is great, I would add Tintner too with Jochum (Emi)

2 I agree for Skrowaczewski; Wand with Köln, yes; But I am missing Giulini, it's by far the best version I have listened to
View attachment 3382


3 Celibidache even with the Swedish Radio Symphony Orchestra, is maybe the greatest third, Skrowaczewski is good too and I would add Tintner which signs here maybe its best Bruckner performance though very long, a real masterpiece.

4. Could you please give the CD reference for Konwitschny, Gewandhaus. I haven't found any trace and I would be interested to listen to it. Karajan EMI is one of my favourite, monumental but the Berliner strings are so beautiful. Celibidache DG is great too and I would add with the Munchner Philarmoniker which is a real great version too (If I am not mistaken his longest, but this devil man made it!). Lecture of Abendroth is interesting but more in an historic perspective (at least for me). I fully agree concerning Böhm and Klemperer, I find especially Böhm much too praised. But Wand with the Berliner is one of my favourite too. Jochum with the Berliner is one of the great version too, as well as with the Hamburg on Naxos (if sound is not your priority). Honourable versions of the fourth are Haitink with the Wiener and Tennstedt with the Berliner.

5 For the fifth we have not the same views, exception made for Karajan who made a good version with the Berliner. I would suggest as first choice Jochum with the Concertgebouw, Wand with the Berliner, Furtwängler with the Berliner (Testament), Celibidache DG and Altus (with the Münchner) and Horenstein with the BBC SO.

6 I find Blomstedt not quite fitted for Brückner, I like very much his Sibelius and Beethoven (Matter of taste!). I agree fully on Celibidache who signs a very lesser 'organic' version of the sixth and remembers me more his Stuttgart period, but with the splendour of the Münchner. But Wand with the same orchestra is surprisingly much more accurate than with the Kölner, an astounding performance from Wand. Jochum is great on EMI and Klemperer with the New Philarmonia found for the first time his right way for Bruckner.

7 Karajan DG (the final recording with the Wiener), I would call this one 'the testament of Karajan'. Maybe for the first time in his career Karajan abandons his hedonistic approach and let the music flow, what a beauty, the Adagio is a pure masterpiece. His EMI version is nearly as good but much more structured and very well recorded, again a Nirvana. But a lot of other recordings are worth: Wand with the Berliner and the Kölner, Haitink with the CSO, Böhm with the Wiener, without forgetting Celibidache on DG. I still do not like Barenboim and have not heard Blomstedt (I will in the evening...). I do not know D'avalos, could you again give details about this recording (maybe with some comments?).

8 Haitink and Furtwängler are clear contenders, but to my opinion Wand with the Hamburg is a real top choice (no desert island without...). But Jochum with the same Hamburg SO is above everything (sound is not as nice, but what an hallucinated version! It was my first Bruckner and is still unreached). Boulez is very impressive, his razor like approach reveals a lot of details which do not clearly appears on other recordings. As well as Van Beinum with the Concertgebouw who has a very analytical approach of the symphony.

9 After hearing Giulini and the Wiener, only Jochum on DG (rare case where the Emi version is not at the height) can be heard without suffering too much of the comparision... Again Giulini is the ET for the ninth, as he is for the second...


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## Manxfeeder

Pestouille said:


> 9 After hearing Giulini and the Wiener, only Jochum on DG (rare case where the Emi version is not at the height) can be heard without suffering too much of the comparision... Again Giulini is the ET for the ninth, as he is for the second...


I'm glad you mentioned Guilini. If you're going to take the piece as a three-movement symphony, his interpretation is filled with such weltschmertz that it's almost unthinkable to go on beyond the ending of the Adagio.


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## tgtr0660

00, 0, 1, 2: Tintner (Naxos) 
3: Wand (RCA)
4: Jochum (EMI) or Celibidache (EMI) 
5: Wand (RCA) 
6. Jochum (EMI) or Haitink (Hanssler)
7. Karajan (DG - yes and with cymbal included) 
8. Karajan (DG)
9. Giulini (DG)


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## Pestouille

tgtr0660 said:


> 00, 0, 1, 2: Tintner (Naxos)
> 3: Wand (RCA)
> 4: Jochum (EMI) or Celibidache (EMI)
> 5: Wand (RCA)
> 6. Jochum (EMI) or Haitink (Hanssler)
> 7. Karajan (DG - yes and with cymbal included)
> 8. Karajan (DG)
> 9. Giulini (DG)


Concerning 8 which one from DG, the Vienna or Berliner?


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## GrosseFugue

Pestouille, I'm assuming that's Karajan's '88 version of Bruckner's 8th with the VPO. That's the one that did it for me.  Such a lush, sumptuous sound with huge dynamic range. As Grammaphone put it: the VPO "plays as if their lives depended on it." I believe this was Karajan's last recording. It's attained a sort of legendary status now. 

I know some people have a problem with Herbie's blended, homogenized sound. But here it really pays off. His style seems to fit Bruckner to a tee, IMHO. Happy listening!

PS -- Curious how it stacks up against Wand's, which I've heard so much about.


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## Vaneyes

1. Sawallisch (Orfeo)
2. Giulini (Testament)
3. Barenboim (Teldec)
4. Jochum (DG)
5. Horenstein (BBC)
6. Nagano (naive)
7. HvK (DG)
8. Jochum (DG)
9. Jochum (EMI)

Too much work to elaborate on each, though a few are classics and realistically require none. The others also exhibit exceptional interpretation, playing, and recording engineering.

I'll just say one thing about length, I prefer the shorter editions for 2, 5, and 8, and that's what we have here.

Klemp's very good with Bruckner, though he takes too long to say the 5th, and his brass is overbearing in 4 and 6.


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## tgtr0660

Pestouille said:


> Concerning 8 which one from DG, the Vienna or Berliner?


The 1988 with the VPO.


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## Lukecash12

I'm the kind of jackass that only really enjoys recordings when I like the tempo. With Germanic music in general, I've always preferred brisker tempi, so I'm going to have to check out all of your recommendations and get back to you on Bruckner's symphonies. Bruckner isn't really from my period, so while I get his music I still need to get in listening time and the full breadth of his works to render decent judgments about his work.

Maybe I'll get back to you on this within the week.


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## joen_cph

> 9 After hearing Giulini and the Wiener, only Jochum on DG (rare case where the Emi version is not at the height) can be heard without suffering too much of the comparision... Again Giulini is the ET for the ninth, as he is for the second...


I just recently got the Giulini on EMI and though it is good, I found a few irregularities in it; haven´t heard the DG, which will be on the list now ... 



> 4. Could you please give the CD reference for Konwitschny, Gewandhaus. I haven't found any trace and I would be interested to listen to it.


It´s on RCA, a stereo recording. Konwitschny also made a mono, as far as I remember, but the mono can´t be better. I have it on LP.



> I do not know D'avalos, could you again give details about this recording (maybe with some comments?).


D´Avalos` 7th is on ASV, very lyrically floowing and good sound.

You have heard a lot - interesting post of yours !


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## Sid James

I'm a bit patchy, but these are top-notch -

#0 - Chailly/Berlin RSO (I think it's out of print, though)
#6 - Sawallisch/Bavarian State Orch.
#7 - Solti/Chicago
#9 - Walter/Columbia SO...


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## Faust

Hello there, 
I am new to the forum and happy to join.
Wanted to ask what recorded version of the FULL 9th is recommended?

Thanks,

M


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## tgtr0660

I only have the one in Chandos with Yoev Talmi and the Oslo Phiulharmonic, Carragan version. Can't say much about any other one.


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## Pestouille

joen_cph said:


> I just recently got the Giulini on EMI and though it is good, I found a few irregularities in it; haven´t heard the DG, which will be on the list now ...
> 
> It´s on RCA, a stereo recording. Konwitschny also made a mono, as far as I remember, but the mono can´t be better. I have it on LP.
> 
> D´Avalos` 7th is on ASV, very lyrically floowing and good sound.
> 
> You have heard a lot - interesting post of yours !


Thanks Joen and I am trying to extend my views on Bruckner, I find his music really fascinating, and therefore this post which should increase my horizon...

Concerning Giulini 9th, you're right for the EMI though not bad, but the DG is a world beyond, really! Its worth...
By the way I listened, 2 fours Suitner which you indicated, a real good one, but I have been scotched with Harnoncourt 4th, really interesting too.


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## Pestouille

Faust said:


> Hello there,
> I am new to the forum and happy to join.
> Wanted to ask what recorded version of the FULL 9th is recommended?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> M


Hi Faust,

The absolute reference is Giulini with the Vienna on DG... You will be blown away...









Have a wonderful experience


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## Pestouille

Sid James said:


> I'm a bit patchy, but these are top-notch -
> 
> #0 - Chailly/Berlin RSO (I think it's out of print, though)
> #6 - Sawallisch/Bavarian State Orch.
> #7 - Solti/Chicago
> #9 - Walter/Columbia SO...


You're raising 3 good points, I have ordered Chailly complete cycle... I will tell you as soon as listened concerning the '0'.
Sawalisch is on my waiting list (I love Sawallisch for Wagner & Brahms), how would yoou compare his 6th in regard of Klemperer or Wand or Jochum?

Solti 7th is praised but his cycle is quite expensive. I haven't found solo recordings of the 7th, woould you recommend Solti in other Symphonies?

Concerning the 9th, I have heard Walter but I have to return to Giulini. This does not mean that Walter is bad on contrary, but Giulini is such an overflyer... Haven't you tried it?


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## Pestouille

Vaneyes said:


> 1. Sawallisch (Orfeo)
> 2. Giulini (Testament)
> 3. Barenboim (Teldec)
> 4. Jochum (DG)
> 5. Horenstein (BBC)
> 6. Nagano (naive)
> 7. HvK (DG)
> 8. Jochum (DG)
> 9. Jochum (EMI)


Thanks for this list which I could live with, exception made for Barenboim... The 8 Jochum DG is it the Hamburg one?
I have a streaming abo, and could listened to the 7th by Nagano, and it was quite interesting. Could you tell me if the 6th on the same level of quality?


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## tgtr0660

Pestouille said:


> Hi Faust,
> 
> The absolute reference is Giulini with the Vienna on DG... You will be blown away...
> 
> View attachment 3419
> 
> 
> Have a wonderful experience


I would guess he was referring to a complete Bruckner Ninth with the fourth movement. There's a few versions and the Carragan is the only one I personally know. But for a regular 3-movement Bruckner-only 9th, I agree with that recommendation too.


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## Pestouille

tgtr0660 said:


> I would guess he was referring to a complete Bruckner Ninth with the fourth movement. There's a few versions and the Carragan is the only one I personally know. But for a regular 3-movement Bruckner-only 9th, I agree with that recommendation too.


Sorry I was too enthusiastic, you're right. I have heard 2 complete 9. None were satisfying, but if you really want to have one, I would recommend Johannes Wildner.


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## Manxfeeder

Pestouille said:


> Sorry I was too enthusiastic, you're right. I have heard 2 complete 9. None were satisfying, but if you really want to have one, I would recommend Johannes Wildner.


As far as completions, what determines which is best for you depends on how you want the last movement to sound - either victorious or conflicted. Personally, I'm partial to this completion also. It's not perfect, but I think it conveys what Bruckner was leading to in the other three movements.


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## Pestouille

Manxfeeder said:


> As far as completions, what determines which is best for you depends on how you want the last movement to sound - either victorious or conflicted. Personally, I'm partial to this completion also. It's not perfect, but I think it conveys what Bruckner was leading to in the other three movements.


In both solutions, there's no internal continuity! You have the third option proposed by Bruckner himself...Te Deum...There are indications that Bruckner worked on building links:devil:

But it is in contradiction with its primary focus


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## Sid James

Pestouille said:


> You're raising 3 good points, I have ordered Chailly complete cycle... I will tell you as soon as listened concerning the '0'.
> Sawalisch is on my waiting list (I love Sawallisch for Wagner & Brahms), how would yoou compare his 6th in regard of Klemperer or Wand or Jochum?
> 
> Solti 7th is praised but his cycle is quite expensive. I haven't found solo recordings of the 7th, woould you recommend Solti in other Symphonies?
> 
> Concerning the 9th, I have heard Walter but I have to return to Giulini. This does not mean that Walter is bad on contrary, but Giulini is such an overflyer... Haven't you tried it?


Chailly's approach is kind of slick, but I like how he brings clarity to that recording of the #0.

Sawallisch's one of #6 has this golden sheen, it makes me think of this golden sunset whenever I hear it. He gives this symphony a sense of ease and grace which I think is appropriate, it's subtitled the_ saucy maid _after all!

I remember Solti's #7 as just being good and done with a fair eye towards clarity, although it's been years since I'd heard it. In any case, the visual aspect of this music, eg. those Alpine mountains and lakes, always come to my mind when I listened to this recording.

I like Walter's account of #9 because it is not as depressing as others I've heard. I prefer some optimism or at least ambiguity in the music I hear. Walter does not do it fire and brimstone like some - eg. I know Haitink's one is like that, I'm quite familiar with that one - he does it kind of objectively. Walter's interpretation of #9 is most likely not orthodox or conventional, but that's the reason why I like it, it's not in your face with this doom and gloom...


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## Rangstrom

The '44 Furtwängler 8th is untouchable (especially in the new M&A remaster). The Wildner/Naxos while not perfect has sold me on the 4 movement 9th.


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## Pestouille

Sid James said:


> Chailly's approach is kind of slick, but I like how he brings clarity to that recording of the #0.
> 
> Sawallisch's one of #6 has this golden sheen, it makes me think of this golden sunset whenever I hear it. He gives this symphony a sense of ease and grace which I think is appropriate, it's subtitled the_ saucy maid _after all!
> 
> I remember Solti's #7 as just being good and done with a fair eye towards clarity, although it's been years since I'd heard it. In any case, the visual aspect of this music, eg. those Alpine mountains and lakes, always come to my mind when I listened to this recording.
> 
> I like Walter's account of #9 because it is not as depressing as others I've heard. I prefer some optimism or at least ambiguity in the music I hear. Walter does not do it fire and brimstone like some - eg. I know Haitink's one is like that, I'm quite familiar with that one - he does it kind of objectively. Walter's interpretation of #9 is most likely not orthodox or conventional, but that's the reason why I like it, it's not in your face with this doom and gloom...


I have listened to '0' by Chailly and I must say he brings a lot of details which are not to be noticed in other interpretations. His 6th and 7th are quite consequent, I will continue my listening over the WE. Thanks for the tip

Solti is on my wish list... My Visa card starts getting hot...


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## Manxfeeder

Pestouille said:


> Solti is on my wish list... My Visa card starts getting hot...


I haven't heard his 7th, but my first exposure to Bruckner was Solti's 5th with the Chicago Symphony on London. It almost ruined me as far as wanting to hear any more. Fortunately, I stumbled in Tintner's set, and now Bruckner is one of my favorite composers. Of course, that's my subjective opinion, but I hope you hear sound clips first if you're thinking of getting the complete set.


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## tebw

My favourite recordings of Bruckner are:

4th - Boehm and the VPO make it onto the player more than Wand and the BPO, but both great
7th - I'm sure Karajan and the BPO is my favourite here - the maestro's last recording
8th - Wand and the North German RSO is just awesome
9th - Barenboim and the BPO seem to say most about this for me, although the Giulini DVD is a cracker


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## Pestouille

tebw said:


> My favourite recordings of Bruckner are:
> 
> 4th - Boehm and the VPO make it onto the player more than Wand and the BPO, but both great
> 7th - I'm sure Karajan and the BPO is my favourite here - the maestro's last recording
> 8th - Wand and the North German RSO is just awesome
> 9th - Barenboim and the BPO seem to say most about this for me, although the Giulini DVD is a cracker


I am glad to see a supporter of Wand for the 8th with the old Radio Hamburg! 
Nice choice...
For the 9th, the RSO Stuttgart version or with the CSO, though good, are not at the height of the Wiener version...


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## Pestouille

Manxfeeder said:


> I haven't heard his 7th, but my first exposure to Bruckner was Solti's 5th with the Chicago Symphony on London. It almost ruined me as far as wanting to hear any more. Fortunately, I stumbled in Tintner's set, and now Bruckner is one of my favorite composers. Of course, that's my subjective opinion, but I hope you hear sound clips first if you're thinking of getting the complete set.


Thanks for the tip, I will pay attention...


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## tahnak

Studiensinfonie - Eliahu Inbal/ Frankfurt
Nullte Symphonie - Zubin Mehta/ Israel
I Herbert von Karajan/Berlin
II Herbert von Karajan/ Berlin
III Wiener/Carl Schuricht and Rozhdestvenksy/Moscow
Romantic IV Sergiu Celibidache /Munich
V Barenboim/Berlin
VI Stein/ Bamberg
VII Zubin Mehta/Georges Enescou Orchestre and Karajan/Berlin
VIII Wilhelm Furtwangler/ Berlin and Zubin Mehta/Israel
IX Eugen Jochum/Berlin and Zubin Mehta/Wiener


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## mleghorn

For Bruckner's 9th (three movements) I recommend Skrowaczewski / Minnesota (on Reference Recordings).


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## Vaneyes

Sid James said:


> Sawallisch's one of #6 has this golden sheen, it makes me think of this golden sunset whenever I hear it. He gives this symphony a sense of ease and grace which I think is appropriate, it's subtitled the_ saucy maid _after all!


Finally, Anton's saucy maid exposed.

View attachment 3854


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## Chi_townPhilly

As the owner of some 3-dozen Bruckner discs, I'd like to weigh in more on this when my time permits... but (to accentuate the positive) I'll agree with the mention of Furtwängler in Bruckner's 8th (I have the '57 mono Vienna Phil recording). Happy to see a few positive mentions of Solti, too. I believe that he's an undervalued Bruckner conductor, usually. [However, he doesn't seem undervalued HERE, which gives me some measure of pride in our contributors!]


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## Vaneyes

Pestouille said:


> Thanks for this list which I could live with, exception made for Barenboim... The 8 Jochum DG is it the Hamburg one?
> I have a streaming abo, and could listened to the 7th by Nagano, and it was quite interesting. Could you tell me if the 6th on the same level of quality?


Pardon my tardiness in replying. I didn't go back far enough in my occasional thread peeks.

The Jochum B8 I referred to, was with the BPO in 1964.

Re Nagano, I was disappointed with B3 and B7. I think his B6 is in another sphere, as far as interpretation and playing. I admire how Nagano handles the brass...having it meld, rather than overtake. Overall performance is ravishing...so spontaneous. Seems like everything clicked on this occasion. A special recording.


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## tahnak

Chi_townPhilly said:


> As the owner of some 3-dozen Bruckner discs, I'd like to weigh in more on this when my time permits... but (to accentuate the positive) I'll agree with the mention of Furtwängler in Bruckner's 8th (I have the '57 mono Vienna Phil recording). Happy to see a few positive mentions of Solti, too. I believe that he's an undervalued Bruckner conductor, usually. [However, he doesn't seem undervalued HERE, which gives me some measure of pride in our contributors!]


Do look into the Berlin Philharmonic performance of the Eighth by Furtwangler. Each movement is a gem. It is the definitive performance of this symphony. I have only heard Solti Bruckner Seventh yet. Not much impressed. Bohm, Karajan and Zubin Mehta have done a better job than Solti.


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## Chi_townPhilly

Some thoughts from the past, re: Bruckner symphonies:



Chi_townPhilly said:


> Bruckner Symphonies- Solti/Chicago. I recognize this last may be a contoversial choice, but let me support my view. Bruckner was a direct fellow who said/wrote what he meant and meant what he wrote/said. "Mystery" in Bruckner is overrated.





Chi_townPhilly said:


> Maybe I'd be better-advised to list out a trio of Bruckner recordings you really shouldn't be without:
> 
> Symphony 5: Sinopoli, Dresden- top recommendation from the Gramophone Guide.
> Clear, with seemingly every compositional intent revealed.
> 
> Tintner (conductor) Naxos complete symphonies white box. This recording, as much as any, put Naxos boxes on the radar. Even though it's a cheat, you can buy this set for about the cost of two full-priced recordings. In addition to having Symphonies 7 & 9 that don't take a back seat to anyone, the real gems of this collection are things you can't easily find anywhere else- the Volkfest finale to Symphony 4, the original versions of Symphonies 2 & 3... which you may come to like better than the more familiarly-heard versions.
> 
> (If you can find it) the 'Andante' box of Vienna Philharmonic Bruckner symphonies 7-8-9. I'll meet you two-thirds of the way on this one. The 7th's conducted by Böhm (in stereo), the 8th's conducted by Furtwängler (and is in mono), and the 9th is led by Karajan (again, in stereo). Perhaps the most interesting thing about this set is that everything that Karajan-bashers claim to dislike about his conducting is absent from this account of the 9th. Another board once had a 'guess-the-conductor' game. This one would have been a guaranteed stumper!


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## Xaltotun

_ Originally Posted by Chi_townPhilly, in a "recommended recordings" thread: 
Bruckner Symphonies- Solti/Chicago. I recognize this last may be a contoversial choice, but let me support my view. Bruckner was a direct fellow who said/wrote what he meant and meant what he wrote/said. "Mystery" in Bruckner is overrated._

I sort of agree on the premises, but not on the conclusions. Let me explain. I have a theory that Bruckner's music gives us a glimpse at his subconscious. He was indeed a direct fellow and he perhaps _thought_ that he meant what he said and vice versa... But already his austere catholicism gives us a hint that "mystery", the things left unsaid, played a large part in his life. Also, he himself said that _"My eighth is a mystery."_ The simplicity of his musical building blocks also makes one think that there is "something" beyond the blocks themselves (of course the arrangement of the blocks is visibly complicated, but that's another matter). To me, Bruckner is a composer whose very directness and clarity makes me feel very strongly that there is another message, another music between the lines. Think of the symbol of the cross itself: just two straight lines, yet there is enormous message behind it. However, I must stress that I'm not just talking about religion here, the "another level" I'm talking about can be purely psychological, philosophical or even just "musical", if one accepts the view that such music-less music can exist.


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## emiellucifuge

A long long time ago I posted this thread:
http://www.talkclassical.com/6644-gennady-rozhdestvensky-bruckner.html

On my limited budget I had at the time purchased a Bruckner set by Gennady Rozhdestvensky - a conductor I very much admire in some areas, but who I hadnt heard associated with Bruckner.
Maybe Ill get a better response by reposting in this thread as Im still wondering about the same question.










Im talking about the complete volumes of the above set. by Gennady Rozhdestvensky and the Russian State Symphony Orchestra.

Any thoughts on this recording?


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## tahnak

emiellucifuge said:


> A long long time ago I posted this thread:
> http://www.talkclassical.com/6644-gennady-rozhdestvensky-bruckner.html
> 
> On my limited budget I had at the time purchased a Bruckner set by Gennady Rozhdestvensky - a conductor I very much admire in some areas, but who I hadnt heard associated with Bruckner.
> Maybe Ill get a better response by reposting in this thread as Im still wondering about the same question.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Im talking about the complete volumes of the above set. by Gennady Rozhdestvensky and the Russian State Symphony Orchestra.
> 
> Any thoughts on this recording?


Yes. You may rely on it. Rozhdestvenksy has handled Bruckner quite well. I have heard his reading of the Ninth and it is more than just good. It can be categorized as brilliant. His treatment of the adagio is expansive. All in all, a good compilation by Rozhdestvenksy for Bruckner!


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## JohnProffitt

This is my very first post to this group and this thread; but, as a 50+ year enthusiast for the music of Bruckner, I'll give my $.02 worth on "best" recordings, offering two in some cases.

f-minor Skrowaczewski/Saarland
Sym. 1 Jochum/Berlin

d-minor Haitink/Concertgebouw (the first "modern" recording, and still unequalled IMO)

Sym. 2 Young/Hamburg (I firmly believe only the "first concept" edition ed. Wm Carragan should be performed)

Sym. 3 Nott/Bamberg (I have strong preference for the 1873 1st version of this symphony)
alt. Marthé/European Phil (Marthé's edition combines elements of the 1st, intermediate and last versions; wonderfully performed and recorded in St Florian!)

Sym. 4 Böhm/Vienna

Sym. 5 Eichhorn/Bruckner Orch Linz (Camerata recording. IMO, the best performed and recorded version of the 5th I've ever heard, featuring an orchestra that is truly "to the manner born." A must hear.
alt. Konwitschney/Leipzig (Eterna & Berlin Classics, recently reissued by Klassic Haus. A granitic, massive performance captured in thrilling, early stereo. Also a must hear.

Sym. 6 Bongartz/Leipzig (Eterna & Berlin Classics, recently reissued by Klassic Haus.) Sweeps the field, IMO

Sym. 7 Karajan/VPO (last recording for DG)
alt. Karajan/BPO (EMI)

Sym. 8 Karajan/VPO
alt. Thielemann/Dresden

Sym. 9 Eichhorn/Bruckner Orch. Linz (Camerata) Again, I would say there is no better recorded or executed version of the Ninth. Camerata's sound, the acoustic of the Brucknerhaus in Linz, and the playing of this fabulous orchestra is beyond criticism. I also prefer any of the 4-movement completions over the 3-movement torso. Eichhorn uses the 1992 edition of the SMPC reconstruction of the Finale, which I find very effective.
alt. Schaller/Ebrach Festival (Profil) An excellent performance and (live) recording. Schaller uses the Wm. Carragan completion of the Finale.


----------



## DarkAngel




----------



## Andreas

Impossible to say. At gunpoint, though, I'd probably pick these:

No. 1: Jochum, EMI
No. 2: Tintner, Naxos
No. 3: Norrington, Hänssler
No. 4: Celibidache, EMI
No. 5: Herreweghe, Harmonia Mundi
No. 6: Nagano, Harmonia Mundi
No. 7: Dennis Russell Davies, Arte Nova
No. 8: Young, Oehms
No. 9: Rögner, Eterna


----------



## joen_cph

Andreas said:


> Impossible to say. At gunpoint, though, I'd probably pick these:
> 
> No. 1: Jochum, EMI
> No. 2: Tintner, Naxos
> No. 3: Norrington, Hänssler
> No. 4: Celibidache, EMI
> No. 5: Herreweghe, Harmonia Mundi
> No. 6: Nagano, Harmonia Mundi
> No. 7: Dennis Russell Davies, Arte Nova
> No. 8: Young, Oehms
> No. 9: Rögner, Eterna


*Rögner* is a great conductor. His Mahler 3rd has some unique traits. I also have his Bruckner 9th and your post made me want to listen to it again.


----------



## tahnak

Studiensinfonie - Eliahu Inbal/ Frankfurt
Nullte - Zubin Mehta/Israel
Symphony No. 1 Herbert Von Karajan/ Berlin
Symphony No. 2 Horst Stein/ Wiener
Symphony No. 3 Volkmar Andrae/ Wiener
Symphony No. 4 Sergiu Celibidache /Muenchen
Symphony No. 5 Daniel Barenboim/ Berlin
Symphony No. 6 Eliahu Inbal/ Frankfurt
Symphony No. 7 Herbert Von Karajan/ Wiener
Symphony No. 8 Wilhelm Furtwangler/ Berlin
Symphony No. 9 Johannes Wildner/ Westphalia


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## DarkAngel

Regarding Bruckner's 9th the Giulini WP is almost an untouchable reference, but Karajan has many great 9ths my favorite being a live 1978 WP performance found on DVD and CD, this thing just sears with intensity amazing performance by HVK

















Check this out fellow Bruckner fans....


----------



## Arsakes

I have this one. Is it among the best?


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## Vaneyes

Arsakes said:


> I have this one. Is it among the best?


May I be so bold in saying that Jochum is alone in the best sets category.


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## GraemeG

Jochum hurries through 'weak bits', apparently thinking that's the best way to deal with them. For me, Jochum is the emperor with no clothes.
I don't know Wand's readings at all, but I discovered Celibidache.
This is a different universe altogether. There's no going back to mere mortals afgter that.
I just wish he used Haas for the 8th not Nowak.
Can't have everything I guess.
GG


----------



## Andreas

I've revised my list:

No. 3, 1873: Norrington, Hänssler
No. 3, 1877: Wildner, Naxos
No. 3, 1889: Davies, Arte Nova
No. 4, 1874: Young, Oehms
No. 4, 1878/80: Celibidache, EMI
No. 5: Herreweghe, Harmonia Mundi
No. 6: Nagano, Harmonia Mundi
No. 7: Masur, Helicon Classics
No. 8, 1887: Young, Oehms
No. 8, 1890: Boulez, DG
No. 9: Norrington, Hänssler


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## Vaneyes

GraemeG said:


> Jochum hurries through 'weak bits', apparently thinking that's the best way to deal with them. For me, Jochum is the emperor with no clothes.
> I don't know Wand's readings at all, but I discovered Celibidache.
> This is a different universe altogether. There's no going back to mere mortals afgter that.
> I just wish he used Haas for the 8th not Nowak.
> Can't have everything I guess.
> GG


Celi = Bruckner Lite, and long. Wand is more interesting with regard to boisterous, and never losing sight of the finish line.


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## joen_cph

One should discern between the Celi EMI (often very slow) and the Celi DG (not necessarily slow):
http://www.talkclassical.com/21054-recordings-you-cant-stand-2.html#post348739

It´s funny that you mention "line" as opposed to Celibidache, since as far as I know he specifically had the credo of a musical piece (or a movement from a piece) being a line of various events, but always with a specific climax that should be moved towards and pointed to. I think at least the DG recordings often exemplify that, at the same time often being more contrastful, and fluent in tempo.


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## Vaneyes

Andreas said:


> I've revised my list:
> 
> No. 3, 1873: Norrington, Hänssler
> No. 3, 1877: Wildner, Naxos
> No. 3, 1889: Davies, Arte Nova
> No. 4, 1874: Young, Oehms
> No. 4, 1878/80: Celibidache, EMI
> No. 5: Herreweghe, Harmonia Mundi
> No. 6: Nagano, Harmonia Mundi
> No. 7: Masur, Helicon Classics
> No. 8, 1887: Young, Oehms
> No. 8, 1890: Boulez, DG
> No. 9: Norrington, Hänssler


Bravos to Young (4), Nagano, and Boulez. Tomatoes to the rest.


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## Vaneyes

joen_cph said:


> One should discern between the Celi EMI (often very slow) and the Celi DG (not necessarily slow):
> http://www.talkclassical.com/21054-recordings-you-cant-stand-2.html#post348739
> 
> It´s funny that you mention "line" as opposed to Celibidache, since as far as I know he specifically had the credo of a musical piece (or a movement from a piece) being a line of various events, but always with a specific climax that should be moved towards and pointed to. I think at least the DG recordings often exemplify that, at the same time often being more contrastful, and fluent in tempo.


You're right regarding his set of six on DG versus the seven from EMI (1987 - 1995). TTs and structure are more conventional on the earlier DG (1969 - 1981). As you say, not necessarily slow. But, as equally important to note, that's not the set most Celi-lovers like to hold up for distinction. And the most-mentioned work from the EMI is the 4th. All 78 minutes of it, plus applause of course.


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## Xaltotun

Generally, I prefer Furtwängler, Karajan, Barenboim and Wand... but I still have more to listen to. Celibidache leaves me cold, Klemperer I'm not sure about, and Jochum feels a bit lukewarm to me (although I adore his Bruckner Masses!).


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## Andreas

joen_cph said:


> It´s funny that you mention "line" as opposed to Celibidache, since as far as I know he specifically had the credo of a musical piece (or a movement from a piece) being a line of various events, but always with a specific climax that should be moved towards and pointed to. I think at least the DG recordings often exemplify that, at the same time often being more contrastful, and fluent in tempo.


Celibidache did mock critics who demanded "die große Linie", the grand line, the red thread, the big picture. This was in the 1980s, when he had already begun to slow down significantly. He also said the most important thing he learned from Furtwängler was that the better it sounds, the slower you have to get. I suppose Celibidache, especially with the Munich Philharmonic, was able to produce a sound that was continually getting better and better, so he got slower and slower.


----------



## joen_cph

Interesting. In that case Celibidache´s whole attitude did change as regards the later EMI period; I don´t have the sources - I think it was some local knowledgeable people here, either Peter Bastian or Hansgeorg Lenz - but they said the opposite, using quotes by Celibidache to criticize conductors who focused on details and lacked a sense of the overall development in a piece. Such a sense is perhaps mostly traceable in the earlier recordings.

Celibidache does have a reputation for occasionally substituting his own views by their exact opposites, or controversial statements and behaviour -being an eccentric above average.

Some notes here too: http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2000/may00/bruckner789.htm
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2000/aug00/brucknerpart2.htm


----------



## Andreas

joen_cph said:


> Some notes here too: http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2000/may00/bruckner789.htm
> http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2000/aug00/brucknerpart2.htm


This is also interesting: Celibidache/Bruckner discography.


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## DarkAngel

Celi EMI now available in budget boxset so high price barrier is removed......

Celi EMI is slower tempo than usual but climaxes are gigantic with the power of a sunami wave, I would describe his style as watching a slow motion view of bird in flight, you see all kinds of details and beauty that is less emphasized in other versions. Not for everyone but serious Bruckner fans should definitely own this


----------



## tahnak

GraemeG said:


> Jochum hurries through 'weak bits', apparently thinking that's the best way to deal with them. For me, Jochum is the emperor with no clothes.
> I don't know Wand's readings at all, but I discovered Celibidache.
> This is a different universe altogether. There's no going back to mere mortals afgter that.
> I just wish he used Haas for the 8th not Nowak.
> Can't have everything I guess.
> GG


This is the ultimate truth for Anton Bruckner. I have heard the interpretations of Eugen Jochum and found them adequate and inspired. When I then heard CElibidache performing his symphonies, it is like GCE A Level and Ph.D.


----------



## bigshot

I have bits and pieces of Bohm, Karajan, Jochum and Wand. Wand is at the top of my list. Bohm is a sentimental favorite though.


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## Xaltotun

To my ears, Celibidache treats Bruckner like it's Bach or something - the universe opens, you see planets and stars, etc. But Bruckner is not like that to me, it has to have conflict, tension, a problem. When the massive forces then solve the problem, it's overwhelming. It's not overwhelming if there was no problem to begin with.


----------



## joen_cph

oops, sorry, deleted - unintentonal double post.


----------



## elgar's ghost

Xaltotun said:


> To my ears, Celibidache treats Bruckner like it's Bach or something - the universe opens, you see planets and stars, etc. But Bruckner is not like that to me, it has to have conflict, tension, a problem. When the massive forces then solve the problem, it's overwhelming. It's not overwhelming if there was no problem to begin with.


Perhaps it's just as well that Celi didn't record any of Messiaen's lengthy celestial works, then... :lol:


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## DarkAngel

Budget price Klemperer boxset being released, I have most of these performances but the price is sooooooo cheap, I am missing 5 & 8

Also if you have not done so the Furtwangler boxset on Music & Arts label needs your attention


----------



## bigshot

Gunther Wand live Bruckner DVDs at Berkshire Record Outlet cheap-cheap!


1. COWAND1-TDK
Bruckner, Symphony #5. (N.German Radio Orchestra/ Gunter ...
Format: DV, Qty: 1, Price: $5.99 ($5.99 ea.)
Code: 138154

2. COWAND2-TDK
Haydn, Symphony #76. Bruckner, Symphony #6. (N.German Ra...
Format: DV, Qty: 1, Price: $5.99 ($5.99 ea.)
Code: 138155

3. COWAND3-TDK
Bruckner, Symphony #8. (N.German Radio Orchestra/ Gunter ...
Format: DV, Qty: 1, Price: $5.99 ($5.99 ea.)
Code: 138156

4. COWAND4-TDK
Schubert, Symphony #8. Bruckner, Symphony #9. (N.German R...
Format: DV, Qty: 1, Price: $5.99 ($5.99 ea.)
Code: 138157


----------



## GraemeG

Xaltotun said:


> To my ears, Celibidache treats Bruckner like it's Bach or something - the universe opens, you see planets and stars, etc. But Bruckner is not like that to me, it has to have conflict, tension, a problem. When the massive forces then solve the problem, it's overwhelming. It's not overwhelming if there was no problem to begin with.


No, I think Celi's Bruckner has all kinds of uncertainties. Yes, do you see the stars, the planets, the formation of the entire universe, no less; but only in retrospect should you recognise this. At the time, it feels foreign; it _should_ feel strange; hence the tempi in the 4th symphony, for instance.
But, perhaps this is why Celi didn't want to make 'recordings'; you listen repeatedly, you know what's going to happen.
Live, in concert, with every performance different; well, that's another world altogether; that's where the music really _is_ - can I hasten to remind everyone else on this thread who is debating the merits of various recordings. Perhaps, under debating, 'library' circumstances, something less extreme, something 'safer' is more appropriate. That way, when you go to hear an orchestra live, maybe the conductor has contacted the spirit of Bruckner, and of live performance, and maybe the event will be profoundly moving, and confusing, and frightening, and not some academic exercise in measuring bars, minutes, and so on, and in the end the triumph will be real.

My greatest musical regret involves Celibidache. I was a 'backpacker', in Europe, in 1989. I haunted music festivals that European summer. I went to the Bruckner Festival in Linz, without any tickets pre-booked; this was the pre-internet era, of course, for those of you who can't picture it; the whole world was not at your fingertips then. Well, Celi was conducting the Munich Phil in the 7th symphony, performed at St Florian; the concert was sold-out, I had no transport (it's not _that_ close to Linz); in the end I just couldn't justify trying to get out there in the hope of scoring a ticket; no ticket, no accomodation, no idea, basically! Knowing what I do now; well, clearly I made the biggest musical mistake of my life. I should have done whatever I could to hear it, despite the 7th being pretty well the least-favourite of Nos 4-9 for me (I don't know 5 all that well at all).
How the performance stands up on a recording i don't know, but live I just know it would have been one of those life-changing events ;the whole reason we attend concerts.
Whenever I play my Celi Bruckner recordings, I try to forget I've ever heard them before; that really is the key to connecting with them on the deepest, most profound levels.
This is why I want Celibidache for my Bruckner.
regards,
GG


----------



## rarevinyllibrary

*VPO/SCHURICHT *in 8th and 9th . There is also an awesome recording of the fifth with Vienna in Mono released by DG !!!Swedish radio orchestra is missing the richness and fifteen more years of training with the Munchner when coming down to *CELIBIDACHE .*Mesmerizing..the complete Symphonies with *JOCHUM* on EMI is also a great set .Very much sought-after set with *Concertgebouw /Jochum *is also excellent .CD set with *french national orchestra/JOCHUM* on *MONTAIGNE* is a rare find.


----------



## Cosmos

Solti's 9th with the CSO is my favorite interpretation. The flow of the first movement is outstanding, he does it in a way that makes it sound different from other conductors.


----------



## david johnson

Sym. 6 Bongartz/Leipzig ... the ONLY sixth to have


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## rarevinyllibrary

symphony #5 / *ROEGNER* on ETERNA with Radio symphonie orchester *BERLIN *


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## psu

Late to this party, but if you can find it the Eichhorn 7th is beautiful.


----------



## Lord Lance

Pestouille said:


> Concerning 8 which one from DG, the Vienna or Berliner?


Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra


----------



## Orfeo

*For Bruckner's 3rd (original 1873 edition):*
Simone Young and the Hamburg Philharmonic.

*For Bruckner's 5th:*
Eugen Jochum & the Royal Concertgebouw (his last recording, re-issued by Tahra).

*For Bruckner's 7th:*
Herbert von Karajan & the Vienne Philharmonic.

*For Bruckner's 8th:*
Gunther Wand & the Berlin Philharmonic.

*For Bruckner's 9th:*
Carlo Maria Giulini & the Vienna Philharmonic.


----------



## Celloissimo

These are the only ones I really have major preferences for

*Symphony 2*: Sir George Solti & the CSO (The last two movements are slightly rushed, but overall the interpretation of this symphony's often overlooked lyricism is so poignant)

*Symphony 4*: Claudio Abbado & The Vienna Philharmonic, one of my favorite recordings in my collection.

*Symphony 5*: Fürtwangler & The Berlin Philharmonic

*Symphony 6*: Günter Wand & WDR Symphony Orchestra (I would have chosen Fürtwanlger if he had recorded the 1st mvmt.)

*Symphony 7*: Karajan & The Vienna Philharmonic, and including the cymbal clash in the Adagio makes it even more awesome.


----------



## mitchflorida

Gerd Schaller. . wow. 4,7,9


----------



## DavidA

Tintner did a good Bruckner series for Naxos

Karajan is even better on DG

For the popular symphonies

4 Karajan (EMI)

5 Karajan. (DG) or Dohnanyi 

6 Tintner

7. Karajan BPO (EMI) or VPO (DG)

8. Karajan - either BPO or VPO

9 Karajan or Jochum


----------



## DavidA

One to be avoided is Rattle on the completed 9th 

Pretty bad Bruckner conducting imo


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Bruckner 0, 1, 2, and _7_ (I know: "Blonde.") I won't comment on-- since I never listen to them.

But as for the rest:

- 3: DG Karajan/BPO

- 4: DG Karajan/BPO

- 5: DG Karajan/BPO

- 6: DG/Karajan/BPO and EMI Klemperer/Philharmonia (a bit slow though)

-8: DG/Karajan/BPO (not the DG Karajan/VPO)

-9: Furtwangler/BPO- absolutely incandescent; runner up: digital DG Karajan/BPO (not his late sixties DG endeavor)


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## mitchflorida

The nice thing about subscribing to Spotify is that I can listen to 20 version of Bruckner's 4th in a very short period of time. Sound quality is extremely important to me so I had to eliminate anything not recorded in the last 20 years.

http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symp...=sr_1_5?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1418253675&sr=1-5


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Xaltotun said:


> To my ears, Celibidache treats Bruckner like it's Bach or something - the universe opens, you see planets and stars, etc. But Bruckner is not like that to me, it has to have conflict, tension, a problem. When the massive forces then solve the problem, it's overwhelming. It's not overwhelming if there was no problem to begin with.


I couldn't agree more.

Bruckner to me is Manichean in scope: epic Good versus ferocious Evil. The volume and texture has a tremendous dynamic range-- and when the drama comes on, it's 'hammer down.'


----------



## mattr

4 Karajan EMI
5 Karajan DG
6 Karajan DG
7 Karajan EMI
8 Karajan EMI
9 Karajan DG 1966

Karajan's sense for the deep mysticism and the tension over long lines is simply in a class of its own (and I heard a lot, including Furtwangler and Celibidache).


----------



## Saggy Shelves

Anyone on Masur's Teldec 73243 New York Philharmonic Symphony #7 recording? It seems a bit like slow going but I'm just getting acquainted with Bruckner. Also noticed posting of Klemperer boxset- like Klemperer very much on Beethoven. Does he dig in here as well? Celi another favorite of mine though its discouraging that by dissuading recording the recordings that were made can be somewhat sub-par- analog in the digital age, etc. (not that that is necessarily a killer in every instance). How is the sound quality on Celi Bruckner recordings, and most of all does he keep things moving along despite his penchant and philosophies about retarding (sorry, read 'modifying') tempos?


----------



## Albert7

GraemeG said:


> No, I think Celi's Bruckner has all kinds of uncertainties. Yes, do you see the stars, the planets, the formation of the entire universe, no less; but only in retrospect should you recognise this. At the time, it feels foreign; it _should_ feel strange; hence the tempi in the 4th symphony, for instance.
> But, perhaps this is why Celi didn't want to make 'recordings'; you listen repeatedly, you know what's going to happen.
> Live, in concert, with every performance different; well, that's another world altogether; that's where the music really _is_ - can I hasten to remind everyone else on this thread who is debating the merits of various recordings. Perhaps, under debating, 'library' circumstances, something less extreme, something 'safer' is more appropriate. That way, when you go to hear an orchestra live, maybe the conductor has contacted the spirit of Bruckner, and of live performance, and maybe the event will be profoundly moving, and confusing, and frightening, and not some academic exercise in measuring bars, minutes, and so on, and in the end the triumph will be real.
> 
> My greatest musical regret involves Celibidache. I was a 'backpacker', in Europe, in 1989. I haunted music festivals that European summer. I went to the Bruckner Festival in Linz, without any tickets pre-booked; this was the pre-internet era, of course, for those of you who can't picture it; the whole world was not at your fingertips then. Well, Celi was conducting the Munich Phil in the 7th symphony, performed at St Florian; the concert was sold-out, I had no transport (it's not _that_ close to Linz); in the end I just couldn't justify trying to get out there in the hope of scoring a ticket; no ticket, no accomodation, no idea, basically! Knowing what I do now; well, clearly I made the biggest musical mistake of my life. I should have done whatever I could to hear it, despite the 7th being pretty well the least-favourite of Nos 4-9 for me (I don't know 5 all that well at all).
> How the performance stands up on a recording i don't know, but live I just know it would have been one of those life-changing events ;the whole reason we attend concerts.
> Whenever I play my Celi Bruckner recordings, I try to forget I've ever heard them before; that really is the key to connecting with them on the deepest, most profound levels.
> This is why I want Celibidache for my Bruckner.
> regards,
> GG


Agreed... so far the only Bruckner I own is his DG 7-9 right now.


----------



## hpowders

Symphony No. 3, Herbert von Karajan

Symphony No. 6, Gunter Wand

Symphony No. 7, Herbert von Karajan

Symphony No. 8, Pierre Boulez

Symphony No. 9, Carlo Maria Giulini (Vienna Philharmonic, only!)


----------



## AClockworkOrange

I cannot comment on Symphony 2 yet but:

Study Symphony (F Minor): Simone Young / Philharmoniker Hamburg

Symphony 1: Abbado / Lucerne Festival Orchestra or Simone Young / Philharmoniker Hamburg

Symphony 3: Tennstedt / Symphonieorchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks

Symphony 4: Tennstedt / London Philharmonic

Symphony 5: Furtwangler / Berliner Philharmoniker

Symphony 6: Celibidache or Wand / Munchner Philharmoniker 

Symphony 7: Tennstedt / London Philharmonic or Furtwangler / Berliner Philharmoniker

Symphony 8: Wand / Berliner Philharmoniker or Furtwangler / Berliner Philharmoniker

Symphony 9: Furtwangler / Berliner Philharmoniker or Celibidache / Munchner Philharmoniker or Abbado / Lucerne Festival Orchestra

I also anticipate some changes when I have chance to listen to Eugen Jochum's cycle with EMI.


----------



## omega

My personal favourites:

*No 8* Haitink, Staatskapelle Dresden (Profil, 2002)







Or Pierre Boulez, or maybe Klemperer, even though he "cut" the last movement.

*No 6* Sawallisch, Bayerisches Staatsorchester (Orfeo, 1981)
It was my first introduction to this symphony, and I've never enjoyed it like I did the first time with any other recording. (Maybe my opinion is biaised... but believe me, it is quite excellent)








*No 4* Abbado, Wiener Philharmoniker (DG, 1991)
I'm sure there are better performances, but I kept listening to this one which I enjoy very much.


----------



## Nevum

DarkAngel said:


> Celi EMI now available in budget boxset so high price barrier is removed......
> 
> Celi EMI is slower tempo than usual but climaxes are gigantic with the power of a sunami wave, I would describe his style as watching a slow motion view of bird in flight, you see all kinds of details and beauty that is less emphasized in other versions. Not for everyone but serious Bruckner fans should definitely own this


No 4 of Celi is probably the best performance for that symphony.


----------



## phlrdfd

Sorry for jumping in late, but I'm new to the board and am just browsing the thread topics.
I don't listen to the first three often enough to have favorites, but for the rest:

4: Abbado, both VPO and Lucerene
5: Jochum/RCOA from 1986 on Tahra
6: Celibidache on EMI
7: Karajan, both BPO on EMI and VPO on DG
8: Karajan/VPO on DG DVD
9: Giulini/VPO


----------



## afterpostjack

Karajan is my default, as so often is the case; however, he is not always the best to my ears. His fourth is the probably best, although I think Abbado did a very good job as well, like in the introduction of the finale, which the vast majority of conductors seem to fail on. For the first two movements of the 7th I prefer Jochum, in the finales of 8th and 9th symphonies I slightly prefer Giulini, who seems to have a little bit more meat in the brass. 
Did Karajan reject the use of Wagner tubas in the climax of the adagio in the 9th symphony? I feel that they are quite pronounced in Giulini's version.


----------



## TxllxT

For me both Karajan & Jochum for the Bruckner mystic (+ Chailly in the early symphonies), but from time to time Mravinsky for the true catharsis:






After Mravinsky your ears will be cleansed and you can start to wander again into the cathedrals.


----------



## Azol

Yet another Bruckner addict joined the forum! So I'll play:

B00 - Tintner/Royal Scottish
B1 - Abbado/Wiener
B0 - Chailly/RSO Berlin
B2 - Chailly/Concertgebouw
B3 (1873 edition) - Tintner/Royal Scottish
B3 (1889 edition) - Wand/NDR
B4 (1874 edition) - Inbal/RSO Frankfurt
B4 - Celibidache/Munchner
B5 - Wand/NDR
B6 - Wand/NDR or Celibidache/Munchner
B7 - Chailly/RSO Berlin or Abbado/Lucerne
B8 - Giulini/Wiener
B9 (unfinished) - Giulini/Wiener
B9 (with Finale) - Rattle/Berliner

I am well aware this last recording caused a controversy, but at least this is the one and the only Finale (edition completed by Samale/Phillips/Cohrs/Mazzuca in 2012) that at last has worked for me. In fact, I own several complete recordings (namely Carragan and earlier SMPC edition) and I have attended the live performance, but it was Rattle recording that made me believe in a 4-movement Ninth. Of course, I can't force this onto anyone - in this case we can safely say that Giulini recording still stands as the best Ninth available, Finale or no Finale.


----------



## donnie a

Duplicate post.


----------



## donnie a

I can't really make a list, as I'm still exploring Bruckner and haven't heard some of the important recordings. But a couple of observations: 

First, I know this is heresy, but I never really liked the von Karajan recordings. I found the sound quality very poor (important to me in Bruckner). Also the interpretations were not as convincing as some others (though I hasten to add I'm sure that's due to my deficiency as a listener. ) But I had the box set and ended up selling it.

On the other hand, I've been very impressed with the Jochum and the Staatskapelle Dresden, and even more so with the Skrowaczewski recordings. I also like the Solti I've heard and am interested in exploring those further. Tintner's readings are just too slow for me, for the most part, though I like his 00.

If I had to have only one complete set, based on what I've heard so far, I'd definitely choose the Skrowaczewski—very powerful, perceptive, and nuanced readings.


----------



## ValleyRacer

mitchflorida said:


> The nice thing about subscribing to Spotify is that I can listen to 20 version of Bruckner's 4th in a very short period of time. Sound quality is extremely important to me so I had to eliminate anything not recorded in the last 20 years.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symp...=sr_1_5?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1418253675&sr=1-5
> 
> View attachment 58290


You um, uh, don't notice the smeary reverberation?


----------



## ValleyRacer

Here's mine:

Symphony #0 D Minor, Overture in G minor Chailly/RSO Berlin - LONDON 
Symphony #1 C minor Solti/Chicago Symphony Orchestra - LONDON (MHS label)
Symphony #2 C minor Solti/Chicago Symphony Orchestra - LONDON

Symphony #3 D minor Karajan/Berlin Philharmonic - DG digital 
This karajan/BPO digital is a very white-hot performance and you have to make sure your CD player is up to it.

Symphony #3 D minor Ricardo Chailly Radio Symphony Orch Berlin - LONDON

Symphony #4 E flat major "Romantic" Chailly/Concertegebouw - LONDON
Kind of a pleasant 4th - I'm on here finding another informed 4th to purchase!!

Symphony #5 B flat Gunter Wand/North German Radio Orchestra - RCA(live)

Symphony #6 A major Jesus Lopez Cobos Cincinatti Sym Orchestra - TELARC 
This American orchestra is a must-hear, and you have to make sure your system is up to the awesome TELARC recording.

Symphony #6 A major Otto Klemperer Philharmonia Orchestra - EMI 
Symphony #7 E major Radio Symphony Orch Berlin Ricardo Chailly - LONDON
Symphony #7 C major Herbert Von Karajan Vienna Philharmonic - DG 
Symphony #8 C minor Herbert Von Karajan Vienna Philharmonic - DG [2] 
Symphony #9 D minor Carlo Maria Giulini Vienna Philharmonic - DG


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## FrankF

I cannot agree with myself on my favorite versions of 0 - 3 and 5 - 6. However I think I do have specific favorites of 4, 7, 8, 9...

Symphony #4: Berlin Philharmonic, Eugen Jochum 

Symphony #7: Royal Scottish National, Georg Tintner

Symphony #8: Wiener Philharmonic, Herbert von Karajan

Symphony #9: Columbia Symphony, Bruno Walter


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## Steve Wright

Not much love here for Bohm/VPO's Seventh? Lots of praising reviews on Amazon. 
I am looking for another Seventh to accompany my Tintner, Wand/Kolner and Karajan/BPO/DG versions, and am wavering between two VPO versions - Bohm's, and Karajan's lauded swansong. 
I'd say beauty and mystery are what I am seeking from the Seventh...


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## Polyphemus

S1 Tintner
S2 Skrowaczewski
S3 VPO - Haitink
S4 Hamburg-Young
S5 VPO-Haitink
S6 Klemperer
S7 Berlin P O - Wand
S8 VPO - Haitink
S9 Giulini

So many great ones to choose from.


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## Lord Lance

Symphony No. 1 - Not thoroughly compared here but probably Chailly/Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra
Symphony No. 2 - None. Need to explore this work more. 
Symphony No. 3 - Karajan/Berliner Philharmoniker
Symphony No. 4 - Asahina/NHK交響楽団
Symphony No. 5 - Celibidache/Radio-Sinfonieorchester Stuttgart des Südwestrundfunk
Symphony No. 6 - Off the top of my head - not a favorite but decent - Gunter Wand/Deutsches Symphonie-Orchester Berlin [1994]
Symphony No. 7 - Insufficient comparison data but probably Haitink/Chicago Symphony Orchestra
Symphony No. 8 - Karajan/Wiener Philharmoniker [1989]
Symphony No. 9 - Asahina/東京都交響楽団 and Bernstein/Wiener Philharmoniker


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## elgar's ghost

Lord Lance said:


> Symphony No. 1 - Not thoroughly compared here but probably Chailly/Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra
> Symphony No. 2 - None. Need to explore this work more.
> Symphony No. 3 - Karajan/Berliner Philharmoniker
> Symphony No. 4 - Asahina/NHK交響楽団
> Symphony No. 5 - Celibidache/Radio-Sinfonieorchester Stuttgart des Südwestrundfunk
> Symphony No. 6 - Off the top of my head - not a favorite but decent - Gunter Wand/Deutsches Symphonie-Orchester Berlin [1994]
> Symphony No. 7 - Insufficient comparison data but probably Haitink/Chicago Symphony Orchestra
> Symphony No. 8 - Karajan/Wiener Philharmoniker [1989]
> Symphony No. 9 - Asahina/東京都交響楽団 and Bernstein/Wiener Philharmoniker


You may want to go your own way of course, but I'd like to especially recommend Tinter on Naxos and Giulini on Testament (two different versions, too - 1872 Carrigan and 1877 Novak).


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## joen_cph

#2: Inbal/Frankfurt too ...


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## Lord Lance

elgars ghost said:


> You may want to go your own way of course, but I'd like to especially recommend Tinter on Naxos and Giulini on Testament (two different versions, too - 1872 Carrigan and 1877 Novak).


Will certainly give it a go sometime. Might update/add post accordingly. Thank you.


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## KirbyH

I don't own a lot of duplicate readings of Bruckner's symphonies, save for the 6th and 7th - in any which case, I heartily recommend Haitink on Profil and Karajan on DG (the last reading with the Vienna Phil) respectively. Both world class performances, and I always get a kick out of the Haitink because the symphony comes to a close and the included applause is just so... hesitant - like they weren't expecting the symphony to end and it did. Either way, these are my recs. Aside from that, you can't go wrong with Karajan's complete cycle from the late 70s.


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## arbiter elegantiarum

KirbyH said:


> Aside from that, you can't go wrong with Karajan's complete cycle from the late 70s.


Listening to the Karajan Boheme in 96/24 and the sound is amazing. If only his Bruckner cycle was available in this format...


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## realdealblues

Steve Wright said:


> Not much love here for Bohm/VPO's Seventh? Lots of praising reviews on Amazon.
> I am looking for another Seventh to accompany my Tintner, Wand/Kolner and Karajan/BPO/DG versions, and am wavering between two VPO versions - Bohm's, and Karajan's lauded swansong.
> I'd say beauty and mystery are what I am seeking from the Seventh...


The 7th is my favorite and I happen to love Bohm's recording of the 7th. I have all the ones you mentioned. I also highly recommend Klemperer and Jochum's Dresden recording. Also, Chailly is suprisingly good in this one.


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## DTut

Not an expert (yet) but I am addicted. I have the Jochum box-set. For the 7th I like Blomstedt better. I will print out these responses and try some of your favorites. Sorry to crash the party.


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## Wouter Demuyt

My favourite Bruckner recordings:
1 Wand - Kölner Rundfunk-Sinfonie-Orchester (RCA): from a very good cycle by Günter Wand, better than his later versions with the Berliners, even though the orchestra is not as good as the BPO; Wand is a very good Bruckner conductor (also check the dvd recordings with the NDR)
Abbado - Lucerne Festival Orchestra (DG)
2 Jochum - Staatskapelle Dresden (EMI): from another excellent Brucknerian, allthough I don't like every single Jochum version of the other symphonies (he couldn't really handle the 8) (also check his version of the masses)
3 Vanska - BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra (Helios): a conductor who always manages to surprise me, also in Beethoven
4 Celibidache - Münchner Philharmoniker (Sony): I love every Bruckner recording by Celibidache, but this must be the best (note: the performance on the Sony recording is even better than the EMI recording)
Böhm - Wiener Philhamroniker (Decca): a classic, what a sound!
5 Harnoncourt - Wiener Philharmoniker (RCA): by far the best 5th on cd, also check the dvd with the Concertgebouw Orchestra, it's just as intense 
6 Solti - Chicago Symphony Orchestra (Decca): with typical Solti vigour, it works throughout, not an easy one to do well
7 Chailly - Deutscher Symphonie-Orchester Berlin (Decca): very sober, has a mystical quality because of it, you can easily get too sentimental in the 7
Fischer - Budapest Festival Orchestra (Channel Classics): as almost everything Ivan Fischer does, it bears his personal touch and it sounds great
8 Karajan - Wiener Philharmoniker (DG): perfection, heavenly, the recording sounds as great as his Mahler 9 with the BPO
Giulini - Wiener Philharmoniker (DG): more human than the above it has Giulini's trademark warmth and great sound
Furtwängler - Wiener Philharmoniker (Music & Arts): fiendishly good, as it is a 1944 mono recording the sound is far from perfect, but Furtwängler creates magic
Tennstedt - London Philharmonic Orchestra (EMI): not perfect, but deserves a place here because of the fire Tennstedt brings; there's an even more intense live recording by the BBC, if you don't mind the imperfections in the performance
9 Giulini - Wiener Philharmoniker (DG): depth, warmth, great orchestra, great conductor, great recording
Walter - Columbia Symphony Orchestra (Sony): for me this is Bruno Walter's best recording of a Bruckner symphony, he gets everything just right

If you want a complete cycle, I'd recommend Karajan's 1970's Berlin cycle: excellent sound and solid interpretations throughout.


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## Lord Lance

Wouter Demuyt said:


> My favourite Bruckner recordings:
> 1 Wand - Kölner Rundfunk-Sinfonie-Orchester (RCA): from a very good cycle by Günter Wand, better than his later versions with the Berliners, even though the orchestra is not as good as the BPO; Wand is a very good Bruckner conductor (also check the dvd recordings with the NDR)
> Abbado - Lucerne Festival Orchestra (DG)
> 2 Jochum - Staatskapelle Dresden (EMI): from another excellent Brucknerian, allthough I don't like every single Jochum version of the other symphonies (he couldn't really handle the 8) (also check his version of the masses)
> 3 Vanska - BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra (Helios): a conductor who always manages to surprise me, also in Beethoven
> 4 Celibidache - Münchner Philharmoniker (Sony): I love every Bruckner recording by Celibidache, but this must be the best (note: the performance on the Sony recording is even better than the EMI recording)
> Böhm - Wiener Philhamroniker (Decca): a classic, what a sound!
> 5 Harnoncourt - Wiener Philharmoniker (RCA): by far the best 5th on cd, also check the dvd with the Concertgebouw Orchestra, it's just as intense
> 6 Solti - Chicago Symphony Orchestra (Decca): with typical Solti vigour, it works throughout, not an easy one to do well
> 7 Chailly - Deutscher Symphonie-Orchester Berlin (Decca): very sober, has a mystical quality because of it, you can easily get too sentimental in the 7
> Fischer - Budapest Festival Orchestra (Channel Classics): as almost everything Ivan Fischer does, it bears his personal touch and it sounds great
> 8 Karajan - Wiener Philharmoniker (DG): perfection, heavenly, the recording sounds as great as his Mahler 9 with the BPO
> Giulini - Wiener Philharmoniker (DG): more human than the above it has Giulini's trademark warmth and great sound
> Furtwängler - Wiener Philharmoniker (Music & Arts): fiendishly good, as it is a 1944 mono recording the sound is far from perfect, but Furtwängler creates magic
> Tennstedt - London Philharmonic Orchestra (EMI): not perfect, but deserves a place here because of the fire Tennstedt brings; there's an even more intense live recording by the BBC, if you don't mind the imperfections in the performance
> 9 Giulini - Wiener Philharmoniker (DG): depth, warmth, great orchestra, great conductor, great recording
> Walter - Columbia Symphony Orchestra (Sony): for me this is Bruno Walter's best recording of a Bruckner symphony, he gets everything just right
> 
> If you want a complete cycle, I'd recommend Karajan's 1970's Berlin cycle: excellent sound and solid interpretations throughout.


Good work, serrah!


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## padraic

Hey Bruckner addicts, do I pull the trigger on this?


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## merlinus

The 8th is right at the top of the heap, but for me, the resonance of Lubeck does not work as well with the 9th. His performance with the BPO is superior, for that reason.


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## padraic

Was interested in it primarily for the 8th anyways. I'll do it. Thanks.


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## Brouken Air

padraic said:


> Was interested in it primarily for the 8th anyways. I'll do it. Thanks.


Do it it's one of the best 8th and the 9th is good too... If you want his best 9th buy the 'Live in Japan' with the NDR Orchestra.

:tiphat:


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## padraic

Has anyone heard of Horst Stein? I've been reading rave reviews of his Bruckner 2 and 6 with Wiener Philharmoniker.


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## elgar's ghost

padraic said:


> Has anyone heard of Horst Stein? I've been reading rave reviews of his Bruckner 2 and 6 with Wiener Philharmoniker.


Definitely worth checking out - especially his 6th bearing in mind the comparative dearth of recommended recordings. Had Stein recorded them all it might have been a cycle to be reckoned with if the standard was maintained.


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## Vaneyes

elgars ghost said:


> Definitely worth checking out - especially his 6th bearing in mind the comparative dearth of recommended recordings. Had Stein recorded them all it might have been a cycle to be reckoned with if the standard was maintained.


Horst Stein, DECCA SOUND ANALOGUE, which Pugg's been gnawin' on for-ever. IIRC New Year's Day conductor, and accompanist to The Great Gulda. :tiphat:


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## chesapeake bay

Any new thoughts on the 4 movement 9th with Simon Rattle?


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## Steve Wright

chesapeake bay said:


> Any new thoughts on the 4 movement 9th with Simon Rattle?


When it comes to Ninths with Finale, I've been advised that Wildner/Naxos is the one to go for...?


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## Tedski

Here is a tally of the preferences given over the course of this discussion. Where Karajan and Wand are concerned, the results are sometimes ambiguous, as some posters did not specify which orchestra or recording they were referring to. Most of the symphonies before #7 did not show a clear cut preference, so I have shown in parentheses the ones that were within 1 vote of the leader. For #s 7-9, the recordings listed here had clear leads over their nearest rivals.

00	Inbal/Frankfurt RSO (also Tintner/RSNO)
0	(Tie) Inbal/Frankfurt RSO; Chailly/Berlin RSO
1	Tintner/RSNO (also Abbado/VPO; Jochum; Skrowaczewski/Saar.)
2	Skrowaczewski/Saarbrucken RSO (also Giulini/VPO, Karajan/BPO, Tintner/NSOI, Wand/Koln)
3	Celibidache/Stuttgart (also Karajan/BPO; Skrowaczewski/Saar.; Tintner/RSNO; Wand/NDR)
4	Celibidache/Munich PO (also Karajan/BPO EMI)
5	Karajan/BPO DG
6	Celibidache/Munich PO (Wand actually got more votes, but half of them did not specify which recording, Munich Phil or NDR)
7	Karajan/VPO
8	Karajan/VPO
9 (3 mvt)	Giulini/VPO
9 (4 mvt)	Wildner/NPO


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## Steve Wright

Nice to see that, thanks Tedski. Who doesn't love a good chart?
I'm thinking I need to hear those much-vaunted final Karajans (7 and 8) - but wondering, really, how much more amazing they are than the very impressive versions I have in his BPO box? (Or, for that matter, other versions I enjoy by Wand and Maazel respectively?)


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## Polyphemus

Appearing in my list would have to be Haitink's VPO part series on Philips of 3, 4, 5 & 8. The 8 is particularly good and IMO is far superior to the much vaunted Karajan version with the same orchestra.
Haitink also has a wonderful 6 on Profil with superb sound.

Wand is of course superb.

There are so many great Bruckner recordings that we Brucknerians are, in truth, spoilt for choice. If I might add that (again IMO) neither Solti nor Bernstein were particularly outstanding when it came to Bruckner.


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## Steve Wright

Polyphemus said:


> Appearing in my list would have to be Haitink's VPO part series on Philips of 3, 4, 5 & 8. The 8 is particularly good and IMO is far superior to the much vaunted Karajan version with the same orchestra.
> Haitink also has a wonderful 6 on Profil with superb sound.
> 
> Wand is of course superb.


I also hear good things of Haitink's early digital 7, 8 and 9 with the Concertgebouw, not long after his Bruckner cycle with same...?
And which Wand, out of interest? Cologne, Berlin, NDRSO?


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## padraic

chesapeake bay said:


> Any new thoughts on the 4 movement 9th with Simon Rattle?


I'll be honest, I didn't think it was that good. Not even really a comment on the fourth movement - I can barely get through the first of this reading, it was so lacking in passion, conviction - too polite almost. Certain parts of this movement, you have to blow the roof off the place. Never found that in Rattle's account, and as he's basically behind the wheel of an expensive sports car, there's really no excuse. Just such a far cry from Guilini or Herbie IMO.


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## padraic

padraic said:


> Hey Bruckner addicts, do I pull the trigger on this?


I have to say, unfortunately this reading of the 8th was an enormous disappointment. Putting aside my adoration of Celi in this work, I still rate this far below Karajan, Giulini, and Haitink (with Dresden). I found nothing uplifting or transformative, at times the finale sounded like a bucolic romp more than a celestial transport mechanism.

tl;dr: Gunter Wand is just not my cup of tea.


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## phlrdfd

padraic said:


> I have to say, unfortunately this reading of the 8th was an enormous disappointment. Putting aside my adoration of Celi in this work, I still rate this far below Karajan, Giulini, and Haitink (with Dresden). I found nothing uplifting or transformative, at times the finale sounded like a bucolic romp more than a celestial transport mechanism.
> 
> tl;dr: Gunter Wand is just not my cup of tea.


It's been a number of years since I've listened to this Wand eighth, but I recall having a similar impression the two or three times I did listen to it. I didn't quite get what the huge fuss was. And that's been my general impression of Wand's Bruckner. Just a personal preference. The one exception I can think of is the 5th with the NDRS on DVD. But in general, something about the orchestral sound he goes for in Bruckner performances doesn't feel right to me.


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## helenora

padraic said:


> I have to say, unfortunately this reading of the 8th was an enormous disappointment. Putting aside my adoration of Celi in this work, I still rate this far below Karajan, Giulini, and Haitink (with Dresden). I found nothing uplifting or transformative, at times the finale sounded like a bucolic romp more than a celestial transport mechanism.
> 
> tl;dr: Gunter Wand is just not my cup of tea.


very very much the same opinion about Wand conducting Bruckner. I don't like his tempos first of all. or may be it's because I listened too many times Celi and we know how slow his tempos can be


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## TxllxT

As far as I've noticed in this thread, Lorin Maazel hasn't been mentioned yet. His Bruckner interpretation is probably too cool for many on first hearing, but especially his seventh has really grown on me. It is as if the underneath tension build up is being downplayed as long as possible (with raving BPO playing) until the Power and the Glory reveal themselves through the music. While listening to various Bruckner interpretations I always compare how tight the tension is being kept under the surface. Maazel is a true Brucknerian IMO. Celibace, Wand, Inbal are not.


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## Sherkel

I've basically stuck with Karajan and Giulini so far. I'd rather wait until I know the pieces through and through before comparing recordings. I do have to agree about Rattle's recording of the 9th Symphony, though...I find Wildner's attempt more satisfying in every way. I dare say it may have been more interesting if Rattle wrote his own finale.


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## joen_cph

Maazel actually had a long-lasting interest in Bruckner; for example, there´s this very old LP recording of the 3rd http://www.discogs.com/Bruckner-Rad...n-Lorin-Maazel-Symphonie-Nr-3/release/5014817

I like early Maazel, he did great things with the Berlin RSO, but haven´t heard this one.


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## cpvniii

padraic said:


> I have to say, unfortunately this reading of the 8th was an enormous disappointment. Putting aside my adoration of Celi in this work, I still rate this far below Karajan, Giulini, and Haitink (with Dresden). I found nothing uplifting or transformative, at times the finale sounded like a bucolic romp more than a celestial transport mechanism.
> 
> tl;dr: Gunter Wand is just not my cup of tea.


Try this one....much better IMO.


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## helenora

TxllxT said:


> As far as I've noticed in this thread, Lorin Maazel hasn't been mentioned yet. His Bruckner interpretation is probably too cool for many on first hearing, but especially his seventh has really grown on me. It is as if the underneath tension build up is being downplayed as long as possible (with raving BPO playing) until the Power and the Glory reveal themselves through the music. While listening to various Bruckner interpretations I always compare how tight the tension is being kept under the surface. Maazel is a true Brucknerian IMO. Celibace, Wand, Inbal are not.


I'm listening to it now, symphony 7th and I like it. I haven't listened Maazel's interpretations of Bruckner only his well known Mahler's . But I can't agree that Celi isn't Brucknerian, he is one of a few who really is, especially when it comes to his understanding of Time as a philosophical category, and it affects "tempos" in his renditions of Bruckner's symphonic works


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## TxllxT

helenora said:


> I'm listening to it now, symphony 7th and I like it. I haven't listened Maazel's interpretations of Bruckner only his well known Mahler's . But I can't agree that Celi isn't Brucknerian, he is one of a few who really is, especially when it comes to his understanding of Time as a philosophical category, and it affects "tempos" in his renditions of Bruckner's symphonic works


I find Celibidache's underbelly too weak, too Biedermeier-like or Caspar David Friedrich-like, but of course this is a matter of taste. For me Bruckner's Eternity is not: stretching all what can be stretched to its maximum, but: _Nunc stans_ like in St Augustine's theology. Well, Karajan, Jochum, Haitink and Maazel make my soul receptive for this "standing now".


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## padraic

I am firmly in the camp of absolute adoration of _Celibidache's_ interpretations.


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## joen_cph

There´s a huge difference between the Bruckner on EMI with Celi, and the Bruckner DG Celi - both as regards tempi themselves, dynamics, and flexibility in the tempi.


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## TxllxT

joen_cph said:


> There´s a huge difference between the Bruckner on EMI with Celi, and the Bruckner DG Celi - both as regards tempi themselves, dynamics, and flexibility in the tempi.


It's all so fairy tale like and I do not like fairy tales...


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## helenora

TxllxT said:


> I find Celibidache's underbelly too weak, too Biedermeier-like or Caspar David Friedrich-like, but of course this is a matter of taste. For me Bruckner's Eternity is not: stretching all what can be stretched to its maximum, but: _Nunc stans_ like in St Augustine's theology. Well, Karajan, Jochum, Haitink and Maazel make my soul receptive for this "standing now".


for me Karajan and even Jochum are not representing nunc stans at all ( sorry to say that), where Karajan is always trying to catch this eternal present as if it's going to run away from him , may be it's his idea of being in a hurry to catch this eternity 

Unfortunately I can't find 3rd and 6th with Maazel to figure out how he would conducted them....


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## Vaneyes

If I had to listen to only one conductor for Bruckner, it would be Jochum. Jus' sayin'. :tiphat:


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## Iggy

Jochum was my introduction into Bruckner, and a very nice one I should say since it got me interested in Bruckner's music. That and Karajan (8th and 9th). While I can't say I've disliked any version of Bruckner's works that I have heard these are probably the version's that I have enjoyed the most so far:

_Symphony 4, Sergiu Celibidache, Müncher Philharmoniker (EMI)
Symphony 6, Georg Solti, Chicago Symphony Orchestra, 1980
Symphony 9, Herbert von Karajan, Wiener Philharmoniker, 1978_

When it comes to the 5th, 7th and 8th I haven't found any version that was extraordinary better (or rather: more to my liking) than the rest. Jochum with the Staatskapelle Dresden for the 5th and 6th were enjoyable, so were Karajan's 7th, 8th and 9th with the Berliner Philharmoniker. Of the earlier symphonies (0, 1, 00, 2 and 3) I can't recall too much expect that I listened to Tintner's versions with the National Symphony Orchestra of Ireland.

Thankfully, scrolling through this thread, I now know where to find more of Bruckner's hidden and not-so-hidden gems.


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## TxllxT

helenora said:


> for me Karajan and even Jochum are not representing nunc stans at all ( sorry to say that), where Karajan is always trying to catch this eternal present as if it's going to run away from him , may be it's his idea of being in a hurry to catch this eternity
> 
> Unfortunately I can't find 3rd and 6th with Maazel to figure out how he would conducted them....


1. Thanks for not agreeing! 2. But I do receive a glimpse of Bruckner's Eternity under the baton of Karajan & Jochum, not with slowing down & stretching the tempi, but with time coming to standstill through their close-up attention for musical 'tension'. While listening to their interpretations I feel like being mystically transported from clock-time to something where we are set free from clock-time. Yes, Bruckner composed his music for making one witness Eternity; some conductors understand this, some not.


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## helenora

TxllxT said:


> Yes, Bruckner composed his music for making one witness Eternity; some conductors understand this, some not.


I do agree with what you say about Eternity and conductors


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## dieter

#0: Inbal
#1: Inbal;Skrowaszewski
#2: Giulini
#3: Kurt Sanderling, Leipzig Gewandhaus: Harnoncourt
#4:Kurt Sanderling, Profil: Celibidache, EMI: Jochum Dresden.
#5:Barenboim, Berlin
#6:NOT Sawalisch; Celibidache, Munich;
#7:Furtwangler
#8: Furtwangler '44.
#9: Furtwangler; Jochum Dresden.
1


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## Steve Wright

dieter said:


> #6:NOT Sawalisch


Why not Sawallisch, out of interest? I've only heard a few Sixths but his has perhaps been my favourite so far.


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## dieter

It was my second Bruckner 6. The first was the Turnabout recording conducted by Reichelt. I thought it was ok. Then I went to a live concert In Melbourne - the Berlin Staatskapelle from East Germany, 1986, conducted by Siegried Kurz - and it was sensational and much more vibrant than Sawallish's recording. I like Sawallisch as a conductor very much otherwise, just not for the Bruckner 6.


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## brucknerian

Bruckner 00, 0, 1, 3 - Definitely the early editions, conducted by Rozhdestvensky with the USSR Ministry of Culture Symphony Orchestra.

Bruckner 2 - Young, Hamburg Philharmonic, 2007. Superb conducting here. The subtleties are brought out of the woodwork. And I love that she performs the earlier version of the work, which includes some gorgeous extended passages (e.g. this one) that were cruelly cut short in later editions.

Bruckner 4 - Celibidache, Munich Philharmonic, Osaka, 1993. If for no other reason than the shattering coda.

Bruckner 5 - Knappertsbusch, Vienna Philharmonic, 1956. Against what many, including "experts" have said, I actually like the Schalk re-orchestration. In particular the coda, with added cymbals, triangles, timpani rolls and offstage brass, has a much grander, livelier feeling for me, which I love to hear in this symphony.

Bruckner 6 - Fürtwangler, Berlin Philharmonic, 1943. Or what's left of it (the last 3 movements only). Love how these musicians handle the piece. The rapid changes in tempo work wonderfully, and lead to a very powerful and dramatic Finale. Take this passage for example. Incredible!

Bruckner 7 - Matačić, Czech Philharmonic, 1967. My favourite, beating even the Celibidache recordings. The richness of the sound, and the passionate way in which the blazing codas of the first and last movements are performed, I find unmatched anywhere else.

Bruckner 8 - Celibidache, Munich Philharmonic, 1990. In this recording I really feel the piece breath and move and take on a life of its own. These musicians produce a profound, spiritual, ecstatic experience, the culmination of which is the performance of the coda, which I find unparalleled in any music, let alone Bruckner's. There's also a strong feeling of unity throughout the piece. Everything feels connected and related.

Bruckner 9 - Celibidache, Munich Philharmonic, 1995. For the Finale, I would nominate the only-ever performance of the Letocart Finale, which I find quite original, inspired, and at the same time, befitting of the general tone of the symphony.


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## dieter

brucknerian said:


> Bruckner 00, 0, 1, 3 - Definitely the early editions, conducted by Rozhdestvensky with the USSR Ministry of Culture Symphony Orchestra.
> 
> Bruckner 2 - Young, Hamburg Philharmonic, 2007. Superb conducting here. The subtleties are brought out of the woodwork. And I love that she performs the earlier version of the work, which includes some gorgeous extended passages (e.g. this one) that were cruelly cut short in later editions.
> 
> Bruckner 4 - Celibidache, Munich Philharmonic, Osaka, 1993. If for no other reason than the shattering coda.
> 
> Bruckner 5 - Knappertsbusch, Vienna Philharmonic, 1956. Against what many, including "experts" have said, I actually like the Schalk re-orchestration. In particular the coda, with added cymbals, triangles, timpani rolls and offstage brass, has a much grander, livelier feeling for me, which I love to hear in this symphony.
> 
> Bruckner 6 - Fürtwangler, Berlin Philharmonic, 1943. Or what's left of it (the last 3 movements only). Love how these musicians handle the piece. The rapid changes in tempo work wonderfully, and lead to a very powerful and dramatic Finale. Take this passage for example. Incredible!
> 
> Bruckner 7 - Matačić, Czech Philharmonic, 1967. My favourite, beating even the Celibidache recordings. The richness of the sound, and the passionate way in which the blazing codas of the first and last movements are performed, I find unmatched anywhere else.
> 
> Bruckner 8 - Celibidache, Munich Philharmonic, 1990. In this recording I really feel the piece breath and move and take on a life of its own. These musicians produce a profound, spiritual, ecstatic experience, the culmination of which is the performance of the coda, which I find unparalleled in any music, let alone Bruckner's. There's also a strong feeling of unity throughout the piece. Everything feels connected and related.
> 
> Bruckner 9 - Celibidache, Munich Philharmonic, 1995. For the Finale, I would nominate the only-ever performance of the Letocart Finale, which I find quite original, inspired, and at the same time, befitting of the general tone of the symphony.


I agree with a lot of these recommendations though I find it hard to endorse the Furt 6 because it's missing the crucial 1st Movement. Don't get me wrong about Furtwangler's Bruckner. I regard him as one of the very greatest interpreters. In fact, I recently wondered just why the 1st m/m of 6 has gone missing: I wondered if there was a chance of it being discovered. Now that would be something.
I too love Matacic's Supraphon recording, the first 7th I got to know.
And then there's Celi. Not sure about the slowness of the 8th and 9th. I much prefer his 3,4,5,6,7.


----------



## Pugg

Vaneyes said:


> If I had to listen to only one conductor for Bruckner, it would be Jochum. Jus' sayin'. :tiphat:


For me that would be Haitink, also just saying


----------



## dieter

joen_cph said:


> Overall & shortly speaking, my preferences are:
> 
> 00 Inbal, Frankfur
> 
> 0 Inbal, Frankfurt
> 
> 1 Inbal, Frankfurt; Abbado WPO, Skrowaczewski
> 
> 2 Inbal, Frankfurt; Wand; Skrowaczewski
> 
> 3 Inbal, Frankfurt; Celibidache DG; Skrowaczewski
> 
> 4 Konwitschny, Gewandhaus; Barenboim,teldec; Karajan EMI; Celibidache DG; Abendroth, Leipzig RSO; Suitner, berlin clssics
> (these, except perhaps Karajan´s monumentally slow, are all more passioned than Böhm/decca and Klemperer/EMI)
> 
> 5 Barenboim, teldec; Welser-Möst, EMI; Karajan, DG
> 
> 6 Blomstedt; Skrowaczewski; Celibidache EMI
> 
> 7 Karajan EMI; Karajan DG; Barenboim, teldec; D´Avalos, asv; Inbal, Frankfurt; Blomstedt, Gewandhaus
> 
> 8 Haitink,CtGeb 1981; Furtwängler 1944; Wand, HamburgSO
> 
> 9 Jochum DG (slightly more fluent and temperamental than the EMI); Furtwängler 1944; Skrowaczewski


I find most of these recommendations so close to mine it ain't funny. Not so many Karajan's in mine, apart from the DG 7.


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## brucknerian

dieter said:


> I agree with a lot of these recommendations though I find it hard to endorse the Furt 6 because it's missing the crucial 1st Movement. Don't get me wrong about Furtwangler's Bruckner. I regard him as one of the very greatest interpreters. In fact, I recently wondered just why the 1st m/m of 6 has gone missing: I wondered if there was a chance of it being discovered. Now that would be something.


Oh how I long for the day that new recordings from him are unearthed!

Keeping my eyes peeled on the New Releases page on the Bruckner Society website - they would probably be among the first to report any such discovery.



dieter said:


> And then there's Celi. Not sure about the slowness of the 8th


If I could go back and edit that post, I would.

I've just been listening to Takashi Asahina's 1993 recording of the 8th. I'm only up to the Adagio. But God... this is really something. This guy is an absolute Bruckner master. I must have not heard him at his best before, because this performance is just blowing me away!!


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## JAS

I am curious what others more familiar with Bruckner think of Benjamin Zander's one CD with commentary. The commentary seems very informed, although often subject to personal responses that may or may not be widely shared, but heartfelt and interesting. The performance, much like his Mahler, seems, perhaps, a bit too studied, competent but more thought out than emotionally felt.


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## DeepR

For the 8th I recommend Günter Wand. Phenomenal performance and sound. 
You can simply convert it to mp3 using a youtube to mp3 converter website.


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## dieter

brucknerian said:


> Oh how I long for the day that new recordings from him are unearthed!
> 
> Keeping my eyes peeled on the New Releases page on the Bruckner Society website - they would probably be among the first to report any such discovery.
> 
> If I could go back and edit that post, I would.
> 
> I've just been listening to Takashi Asahina's 1993 recording of the 8th. I'm only up to the Adagio. But God... this is really something. This guy is an absolute Bruckner master. I must have not heard him at his best before, because this performance is just blowing me away!!


I agree about Asahina.


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## padraic

3 (1873 ver) - Remy Ballot/Altomonte Orchestre
4 - Celi/Munich (Sony, "the rediscovered symphony")
5 - Barenboim/Berlin
6 - Celi/Munich
7 - Karajan/BPO
8 - Celi/Munich
9 - Giulini/VPO


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## AClockworkOrange

Off the top of my head, I would say the following stand out, though I have a number of recordings I need to spend more time with before giving my definitive view. This is a partial provisional - very much subject to change.
1) Abbado/Lucerne
3) Simone Young
4 & 7) Tennstedt/London Philharmonic
5) Wand/Berlin
8) Celibiache/Munich
9) Furtwängler


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## DoenitzDerBedrohung

Does anyone out there think that Bernard Haitink's PHILLIPS RECORDING of the Bruckner 9th with the Concertgebeow is in the running for BEST RECORDING EVER of this symphony? I have it on a 7" Reel (It's the one with the Egyptian Art on the Cover), and I think it's phantasmagorical. But then again, I havent heard many other recordings with which to compare it recently. I didn't like Jochum's interpretation of the scherzo as much as Haitink's. I just thought it simply wasn't as "musical", although I suppose it would be just what one were looking for---if you wanted a more visceral, staccato rendition.


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## Pugg

Doenits Der Bedorhung said:


> Does anyone out there think that Bernard Haitink's PHILLIPS RECORDING of the Bruckner 9th with the Concertgebeow is in the running for BEST RECORDING EVER of this symphony? I have it on a 7" Reel (It's the one with the Egyptian Art on the Cover), and I think it's phantasmagorical. But then again, I havent heard many other recordings with which to compare it recently. I didn't like Jochum's interpretation of the scherzo as much as Haitink's. I just thought it simply wasn't as "musical", although I suppose it would be just what one were looking for---if you wanted a more visceral, staccato rendition.


Didn't he recorded it twice with the Royal Concertgebouw orchestra?
On "analogue" and one digital?


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

Pugg said:


> Didn't he recorded it twice with the Royal Concertgebouw orchestra? On "analogue" and one digital?


Correct - in 1965 and 1981 respectively. The one with the Egyptian art (I Googled it) is of the 1965 version, by the looks of it. It's a pretty cool cover, although what the goddess Hathor has to do with Bruckner's 9th I'm not sure


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## realdealblues

There's many, many more. I like a lot of different recordings for Bruckner's Symphonies, but this is off the top of my head.

Symphony 1: Sawallisch (Orfeo), Suitner (Berlin Classics)
Symphony 2: Stein (Decca), Skowaczewski (Oehms)
Symphony 3: Jochum (EMI), Tintner (Naxos), Sinopoli (DG)
Symphony 4: Klemperer (EMI), Bohm (Decca), Jochum (DG), Wand (RCA, Berlin), Karajan (EMI)
Symphony 5: Skowaczewski (Oehms), Sawallisch (Orfeo), Gielen (Intercord), Abbado (DG), Jochum (EMI)
Symphony 6: Klemperer (EMI), Eschenbach (Koch), Stein (Decca)
Symphony 7: Klemperer (EMI), Jochum (EMI), Chailly (Decca), Sanderling (Hanssler)
Symphony 8: Karajan (DG, Vienna), Giulini (DG), Maazel (EMI), Wand (RCA, Berlin), Suitner (Berlin Classics)
Symphony 9: Jochum (EMI), Kubelik (Orfeo), Skrowaczewski (Oehms), Giulini (DG), Wand (RCA, NDR), Karajan (DG, 1976)


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## Marc

No. 1 - Haitink/Concertgebouw
No. 2 - Suitner/Tokyo (live)
No. 3 - Wand/Köln
No. 4 - Ormandy/Philadelphia
No. 5 - Harnoncourt/Wiener Phil
No. 6 - Haitink/Dresden (live)
No. 7 - Rosbaud/SWF Baden-Baden
No. 8 - Haitink/Concertgebouw (1981)
No. 9 - Bernstein/Wiener Phil

Study Symphony: Inbal/Frankfurt
Nullified Symphony: Skrowaczewski/Saarbrücken


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## Pugg

Marc said:


> No. 1 - Haitink/Concertgebouw
> No. 2 - Suitner/Tokyo (live)
> No. 3 - Wand/Köln
> No. 4 - Ormandy/Philadelphia
> No. 5 - Harnoncourt/Wiener Phil
> No. 6 - Haitink/Dresden (live)
> No. 7 - Rosbaud/SWF Baden-Baden
> No. 8 - Haitink/Concertgebouw (1981)
> No. 9 - Bernstein/Wiener Phil
> 
> Study Symphony: Inbal/Frankfurt
> Nullified Symphony: Skrowaczewski/Saarbrücken


A mixed bundle I would say


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## bz3

I'm still new to Bruckner but I've found a few I like a lot out of what I've heard:

Bruckner 5: Barenboim
Bruckner 6: Jochum Dresden
Bruckner 7 & 9: Celibidache EMI


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## Marc

Pugg said:


> A mixed bundle I would say


Yes, rather.

I don't think that, as a listener, I constructed some kind of a Bruckner-concept which I favour in almost each symphony.
Which means that many conductors/orchestras can please me.

I must say though, that of the recordings mentioned, I especially was moved instantly by Haitink 1, Rosbaud 7, Haitink 8 and Bernstein 9. So it's possible that these 4 are the only 'rock-steady' picks of the lot. But who knows... things might change very soon.


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## Merl

Based on what I've been listening to lately (but this will change):

1. Tintner
2. Guilini
3. Inbal
4. Wand
5. Skrowaczewski (I hate spelling that name)
6. Klemperer
7. Asahina
8. Barbirolli
9. Sinopoli


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## kyf

We may have made a connection to Bruckner's music in a way that we may not have realized. Please read this report: http://www.mcgill.ca/reporter/39/09/pearlman/

A passage from the above report: After McLean has pointed out that one of Bruckner's biggest fans was fellow Austrian Adolf Hitler, Pearlman elaborates. "We owe the creation of heavy metal to the Third Reich," he says, "because a lot of the Jewish composers who left Europe went on to compose for Hollywood horror films. They exposed kids to a Brucknerian vocabulary and it subsequently morphed into heavy metal."

There is also a McGill Podcast http://podcasts.mcgill.ca/music/what...d-heavy-metal/.

Listen to the No. 9 Scherzo and compare it to music from the movie Psycho. You'll easily hear what they mean.

I don't know why this is not more well known; and it seems that many people are confused about the nature of Bruckner's music and why they like/dislike it.


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## Becca

kyf said:


> I don't know why this is not more well known; and it seems that many people are confused about the nature of Bruckner's music and why they like/dislike it.


In that case I am VERY confused about why I like Bruckner.


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## Totenfeier

donnie a said:


> I can't really make a list, as I'm still exploring Bruckner and haven't heard some of the important recordings. But a couple of observations:
> 
> First, I know this is heresy, but I never really liked the von Karajan recordings. I found the sound quality very poor (important to me in Bruckner). Also the interpretations were not as convincing as some others (though I hasten to add I'm sure that's due to my deficiency as a listener. ) But I had the box set and ended up selling it.
> 
> On the other hand, I've been very impressed with the Jochum and the Staatskapelle Dresden, and even more so with the Skrowaczewski recordings. I also like the Solti I've heard and am interested in exploring those further. Tintner's readings are just too slow for me, for the most part, though I like his 00.
> 
> If I had to have only one complete set, based on what I've heard so far, I'd definitely choose the Skrowaczewski-very powerful, perceptive, and nuanced readings.


Back when I could still drink cool, rich, dark, foreign, malty beers, as much as ever I wanted (B.G.: Before Gout - damn purines), I read a beer review that said something very profound, in a beery sort of way. The guy wrote that you maybe don't always want to be blown away by a beer every single time; sometimes you just want the old dependable at the end of the day. Skrowaczewski is my go-to Bruckner guy for that good old-slipper feeling: the Warsteiner Dunkel of Bruckner conductors. Never a bad bottle!


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## Brahmsian Colors

#3 Schuricht/Vienna Philharmonic
#4 Kertesz/London Symphony
#5 Knappertsbusch/Vienna Philharmonic
#6 Klemperer/New Philharmonia Orchestra
#7 Kabasta/Munich Philharmonic, Giulini Vienna Phiharmonic
#8 Knappertsbusch/Berlin Philharmonic
#9 Walter/Columbia Symphony


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## SmokeyBarnable

#2 Tintner
#3 Tintner
#4 Furtwangler, Celibidache, Tintner
#5 1st movement: Harnoncourt live recording w/ Concertgebouw; otherwise Karajan
#6 Solti (chicago), Kemperer
#7 Tintner, Karajan
#8 Wand, Furtwangler, Karajan
#9 Guilini, Wildner, Solti (chicago)
#9 Finale completion: Wildner 1992 and no others


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## helenora

Celibidache is the best for all. Unfortunately there are no recordings of early symphonies conducted by him. The best ever for Bruckner.


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## Becca

SmokeyBarnable said:


> #9 Finale completion: Wildner 1992 and no others


Wildner's recording on Naxos is the 1996 first revised version of the Samale/Mazzuca/Phillips/Cohrs completion. not 1992. Since then they have done 3 more revisions, the first of which (2005) contains significant added material from Bruckner's sketches and therefore is a more accurate representation of Bruckner's intent.


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## DavidA

helenora said:


> Celibidache is the best for all. Unfortunately there are no recordings of early symphonies conducted by him. The best ever for Bruckner.


Celibidache - yawns!


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## DavidA

I have Karajan's complete set and also Bochum's on order and in the post. I admire their very different ways with Bruckner. 
Also I'd recommend Tintner for nos 3 and 6
Dohnanyi has a tremendous 5th
Karajan has three wonderful 7ths and a 4th he recorded for EMI Also his early and late 8th


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## Roger Knox

DavidA said:


> Also I'd recommend Tintner for nos 3 and 6


Back in the 1970's I knew quite a few young musicians who spent their summers with the select National Youth Orchestra of Canada, where Georg Tintner conducted for several years. Every one said wonderful things about him.


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## rw181383

00 - Tintner (Naxos) 
0 - Barenboim (DG-CSO)
1 - Jochum (DG)
2 - Giulini (Testament)
3 - Kubelik (Audite)
4 - Karajan (EMI)
5 - Horenstein (BBC), Welser-Möst (EMI), Celibidache (EMI), Karajan (DG), Barenboim (DG-BPO), Furtwängler (M&A-1942), Herbig (perc.pro)
6 - Solti (London)
7 - Böhm (Audite)
8 - Suitner (Berlin Classics), Giulini (BBC), Asahina (Canyon Classics-1994), Celibidache (EMI)
9 - Giulini (DG)


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## gardibolt

I've always kind of struggled with Bruckner, but I had an epiphany last night when the 9th performed by Haitink and the Concertgebouw came up on my iPod. For the first time it really felt coherent and I felt like I got it. The other time I've had that experience was with the Klemperer recording of Mahler's 2nd ---Mahler being another composer that I've had a lot of trouble with. So anyway, now I have a soft spot for Haitink.


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## padraic

gardibolt said:


> I've always kind of struggled with Bruckner, but I had an epiphany last night when the 9th performed by Haitink and the Concertgebouw came up on my iPod. For the first time it really felt coherent and I felt like I got it. The other time I've had that experience was with the Klemperer recording of Mahler's 2nd ---Mahler being another composer that I've had a lot of trouble with. So anyway, now I have a soft spot for Haitink.


Haitink does a really great Eighth as well.


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## danielinyaracuy

Well, Bruckner is the only composer for which I have at least two recordings for his symphonies from 4 to 9. I guess that this means that either I cannot find one that satisfies me, or that Bruckner has enough riches to require several directors to get them. Or a mix of both, of course. This being said the lone symphonie for which I have a clear winner, no matter how far I searched, is the old Klemperer recording of the 6th. Karajan is usually good. Giulini too, specially with the 9. Chailly you can forget about it.


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## KJ von NNJ

0 - Inbal, Chailly, Barenboim DG
1 - Barenboim Teldec, Karajan, Solti
2 - Karajan DG, Giulini, Barenboim Teldec
3 - Tintner, Barenboim Teldec, Nagano
4 - Wand BPO, Abbado VPO, Karajan EMI
5 - Furtwangler, Barenboim Teldec, Rogner, Karajan DG
6 - Lopez-Cobos, Karajan DG, Klemperer EMI, Muti
7 - Chailly Decca, Karajan EMI, Wand BPO
8 - Wand BPO, Giulini VPO, Karajan DG
9 - Barenboim Teldec, Giulini DG, Bernstein, Karajan

Celibidache is wonderful. So are the Bruckner Orchestra of Linz recordings, echt Bruckner. Furtwangler was in a class of his own. 
Boehm and Haitink are great for those who can do without fiery interpretations. They are balanced and undistorted. Jochum was unique. A gifted Brucknerian.
I like the fired up ones. I also want atmosphere and depth. Burnished strings and brass.


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## marshanp

2 - Dausgard on BIS, because his Schubert-sized orchestra and performance seems really appropriate
3 - Haitink/VPO on Phillips, a wonderfully played performance of the best version of this troubled score
4 - Jochum on DG, because nobody captures the magic of the opening like him
5 - Furtwangler on Testament, because I struggle a bit with this one and Furtwangler makes sense of it like nobody else
6 - Solti/CSO, because it needs an orchestra with *great* brass and *great* precision (which it seldom gets) and a conductor willing to let the slow movement take its time (no, no, not Celibidache!)
8 - either Karajan's final recording... or Barbirolli on BBC Legends, who also died soon after the concert... I can't say why, beyond the fact that both leave me reeling *and* uplifted
9 - Talmi on Chandos playing the first and best version of the Carragan completion, which I find far superior to the SPCM effort

No strong preferences for 00, 0, 1 or (oddly?) 7...


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## SmokeyBarnable

I love Celi's 8th symphony and his incredible coda of the 4th...however I find the rest of the celi 4th almost unlistenably slow, same with the scherzo of the 9th. the brass chorale of the 4th 1st movement suffers a lot in his interpretation. similar feelings about his 5th. I do like his 6th though.

I like tracobel's 'appropriate tempi' videos on youtube, and I guess I buy into the idea that faster and varied tempi are the way to go with the earlier symphonies (1-5).


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## marshanp

SmokeyBarnable said:


> ...I like tracobel's 'appropriate tempi' videos on youtube...


I'm struggling to find these - could you provide a pointer, please?

Bruckner can be performed convincingly in more than one way, which made it unfortunate that the "architecture in music", monolithic, maximum-gravitas approach became almost the norm for a while. Thankfully that era now seems to be history.


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## Azol

Celi performances were revelations to me (I listened to many many different editions and conductors before I came to his Munich period recordings), to name just a few: Adagios from B5, B6 and B8, Finale of B4 (of course!)
The only real problem I have with the whole cycle - B9 Scherzo. Too darn slow.


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## SmokeyBarnable

marshanp said:


> I'm struggling to find these - could you provide a pointer, please?
> 
> Bruckner can be performed convincingly in more than one way, which made it unfortunate that the "architecture in music", monolithic, maximum-gravitas approach became almost the norm for a while. Thankfully that era now seems to be history.


no problem, here is the 5th:






2nd:


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## SmokeyBarnable

the author of those sped up / 'appropriate tempi' youtube versions is non other than Sebastian Letocart, author the letocart completion of the 9th finale.


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## DavidA

I have listened to Jochum's complete Dresden set. There is an awesome spirituality about them. I know there are other ways of doing it but jochum's is very satisfying. This set is pretty cheap and should be in any brucknerians library


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## bz3

DavidA said:


> I have listened to Jochum's complete Dresden set. There is an awesome spirituality about them. I know there are other ways of doing it but jochum's is very satisfying. This set is pretty cheap and should be in any brucknerians library


A fine one, if I could have only one complete (or pseudo-complete, as it were) it just might be this one.


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## Tallisman

I'd like to offer a vote for Karajan's 1966 DG recording of the 9th with the BPO. The sound of it, the actual acoustics, will blow your mind. I'm sure other conductors would achieve a greater interpretive perfection, but to me this recording represents the essence of Bruckner. The strings have this extraordinary sustained monolithic weight. Good Bruckner should completely light up your veins and this one does that like no other recording.


----------



## Manxfeeder

Tallisman said:


> I'd like to offer a vote for Karajan's 1966 DG recording of the 9th with the BPO.


I have his 1976 recording. I wasn't aware of one from 1966. Fortunately, there's YouTube. I'm listening now.


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## Andy Foster

I'm coming to this very, very late, but it was a chance finding on an internet search and got me to join the forum.

There are many wonderful Bruckner recordings but these stand out for me in different ways:

5th. Jochum (the DG Bavarian RSO recording). Everything seems ro go right and lead to the moment when the chorale comes back near the end of the finale. That lifts me out of my seat.
6th. Klemperer (EMI), but also Sawallisch on Orfeo. One shouldn't pick out moments but I've never heard the coda of the slow movement sound so wonderful.
8th. For many years I thought this was my blind spot in later Bruckner. I had the Karajan/BPO recording and it never seemed to hang together - the music not the conductor's way with it. Then I heard the late Karajan/VPO and it converted me to the symphony; a quite marvellous performance. Very recently I read a rave review of the late Wand/BPO recording, and bought it, and it is really excellent, again beautifully shaped so the whole piece seems to hang together well. The big climax near the end of the slow movement is overwhelming.
9th. Always loved the Walter/ColumbiaSO. Of course it's (very good) US players, not the Vienna or even Berlin sound, but he knows the piece so well and shapes it marvellously. The big climax in the slow movement is the end of eight or nine minutes continous build-up, and it's shattering.

Celibidache I've always found too slow; he loses the plot. Should I try again? 

Interesting to see the large number of people here recommending the Giulini 9th. Its timings are very slow; does it hang together? 

And Furtwangler. I know of two versions of the 8th. with the VPO, 1944 and 1954, and there's one with the BPO. What are they like? Is the sound acceptable and which is the best performance?


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## GeorgeMcW

Andy Foster said:


> I'm coming to this very, very late, but it was a chance finding on an internet search and got me to join the forum.
> 
> There are many wonderful Bruckner recordings but these stand out for me in different ways:
> 
> 5th. Jochum (the DG Bavarian RSO recording). Everything seems ro go right and lead to the moment when the chorale comes back near the end of the finale. That lifts me out of my seat.
> 6th. Klemperer (EMI), but also Sawallisch on Orfeo. One shouldn't pick out moments but I've never heard the coda of the slow movement sound so wonderful.
> 8th. For many years I thought this was my blind spot in later Bruckner. I had the Karajan/BPO recording and it never seemed to hang together - the music not the conductor's way with it. Then I heard the late Karajan/VPO and it converted me to the symphony; a quite marvellous performance. Very recently I read a rave review of the late Wand/BPO recording, and bought it, and it is really excellent, again beautifully shaped so the whole piece seems to hang together well. The big climax near the end of the slow movement is overwhelming.
> 9th. Always loved the Walter/ColumbiaSO. Of course it's (very good) US players, not the Vienna or even Berlin sound, but he knows the piece so well and shapes it marvellously. The big climax in the slow movement is the end of eight or nine minutes continous build-up, and it's shattering.
> 
> Celibidache I've always found too slow; he loses the plot. Should I try again?
> 
> Interesting to see the large number of people here recommending the Giulini 9th. Its timings are very slow; does it hang together?
> 
> And Furtwangler. I know of two versions of the 8th. with the VPO, 1944 and 1954, and there's one with the BPO. What are they like? Is the sound acceptable and which is the best performance?


Welcome Andy. It's great to have you. I'm new too, and also lurking for some Bruckner. Not my strong suit as I only know the following: 
8 - got to know the Jochum recording, which I like. Haven't heard the Furtwangler. I must
5 - love the Furtwangler. Heard Abbados one of his final concerts. 
9 - Furtwangler again.

For me, I'm very sensitive to performances for Bruckner. I either can't stand it or love it.


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## DavidA

For Bruckner recordings of which I haven't got the set, Dohnanyi's fifth is superb, makes you feel your ears are being syringed. Then Karajan's 4 and 7 on EMI which are superbly recorded and played. And of course the valedictory 7 and 8 with the VPO. 7 is quite different from Karajan's other 7ths (so much for the rumour by the cloth-eared that he conducted everything exactly the same) and 8 is a towering performance of a symphony he (not I) loved above all others.


----------



## SmokeyBarnable

Andy Foster said:


> I'm coming to this very, very late, but it was a chance finding on an internet search and got me to join the forum.
> 
> There are many wonderful Bruckner recordings but these stand out for me in different ways:
> 
> 5th. Jochum (the DG Bavarian RSO recording). Everything seems ro go right and lead to the moment when the chorale comes back near the end of the finale. That lifts me out of my seat.
> 6th. Klemperer (EMI), but also Sawallisch on Orfeo. One shouldn't pick out moments but I've never heard the coda of the slow movement sound so wonderful.
> 8th. For many years I thought this was my blind spot in later Bruckner. I had the Karajan/BPO recording and it never seemed to hang together - the music not the conductor's way with it. Then I heard the late Karajan/VPO and it converted me to the symphony; a quite marvellous performance. Very recently I read a rave review of the late Wand/BPO recording, and bought it, and it is really excellent, again beautifully shaped so the whole piece seems to hang together well. The big climax near the end of the slow movement is overwhelming.
> 9th. Always loved the Walter/ColumbiaSO. Of course it's (very good) US players, not the Vienna or even Berlin sound, but he knows the piece so well and shapes it marvellously. The big climax in the slow movement is the end of eight or nine minutes continous build-up, and it's shattering.
> 
> Celibidache I've always found too slow; he loses the plot. Should I try again?
> 
> Interesting to see the large number of people here recommending the Giulini 9th. Its timings are very slow; does it hang together?
> 
> And Furtwangler. I know of two versions of the 8th. with the VPO, 1944 and 1954, and there's one with the BPO. What are they like? Is the sound acceptable and which is the best performance?


Celi: I would say no. His slow coda to the 4th is revelatory. But his scherzo to the 9th is a joke.
The Guilini 9th is great, but I agree that he takes things a bit too slow and drawn out. I prefer Wand and Furtwangler for the 9th
1944 Furtwangler 8th is my personal favorite. Furtwangler makes the adagio's longeurs disappear.


----------



## mbhaub

I was wondering if any of you Bruckner fans have heard or formed an opinion on the ongoing cycle with Andris Nelsons? Some reviews are ecstatic, some quite the opposite. I'm all for supporting new recordings and young conductors and great orchestras, but I don't want to plunk down money on something that I may not take to. By way of reference, I like Karajan, Wand, Jochum the most in the repertoire.


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## Granate

^^
























I've listened and compared these three recordings and I give them a good mark. They have a great combination of orchestral playing and sound quality. I think the conducting is fairly good and much livelier than the Masur recordings. However, thinking about contemporary sets, it doesn't climb too far from the new Sony Russell-Davies recordings with the Bruckner Orchester Linz, or even the Yannick Nézet-Seguin cycle (his erratic performances are another topic). Let's say they don't bother me and that they aren't too competitive per sev just because DG has the release rights. Three stars.

And I haven't said a word about the T conductor and the D orchestra yet.


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## Guest

Andy Foster said:


> 8th. For many years I thought this was my blind spot in later Bruckner. I had the Karajan/BPO recording and it never seemed to hang together - the music not the conductor's way with it. Then I heard the late Karajan/VPO and it converted me to the symphony; a quite marvellous performance.


I agree with you about Karajan's WPO 8th being an extraordinary recording. At the end of his life, especially with the WPO, he seemed to regain some of the directness of his earlier performances, and shed some of the mannerisms he had acquired through the 70's and 80's. I only heard Karajan in concert once, and it was a performance of the Bruckner 8th with the WPO made about the same time as the recording. The most extraordinary music experience I have ever had.


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## endelbendel

# 6: Celibidache.


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## merlinus

Granate said:


> ^^
> 
> I've listened and compared these three recordings and I give them a good mark. They have a great combination of orchestral playing and sound quality. I think the conducting is fairly good and much livelier than the Masur recordings. However, thinking about contemporary sets, it doesn't climb too far from the new Sony Russell-Davies recordings with the Bruckner Orchester Linz, or even the Yannick Nézet-Seguin cycle (his erratic performances are another topic). Let's say they don't bother me and that they aren't too competitive per sev just because DG has the release rights. Three stars.
> 
> And I haven't said a word about the T conductor and the D orchestra yet.


Unlike you, I found these performances to be seriously lacking. It would seem that Nelsons has no idea how to shape the overall symphonies, and no overall conception of the pieces as a whole. Thus they are choppy, lack musicality, and are most unremarkable. The orchestra could not make up for his shortcomings, no matter how wonderful their playing and the SQ.

As for T and D, listened to the 7th (yet again!) last night. A stupendous performance in all regards. And no. 4 is just as wonderful.


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## Pure Fool

Andy Foster said:


> I'm coming to this very, very late, but it was a chance finding on an internet search and got me to join the forum.
> 
> There are many wonderful Bruckner recordings but these stand out for me in different ways:
> 
> 5th. Jochum (the DG Bavarian RSO recording). Everything seems ro go right and lead to the moment when the chorale comes back near the end of the finale. That lifts me out of my seat.
> 6th. Klemperer (EMI), but also Sawallisch on Orfeo. One shouldn't pick out moments but I've never heard the coda of the slow movement sound so wonderful.
> 8th. For many years I thought this was my blind spot in later Bruckner. I had the Karajan/BPO recording and it never seemed to hang together - the music not the conductor's way with it. Then I heard the late Karajan/VPO and it converted me to the symphony; a quite marvellous performance. Very recently I read a rave review of the late Wand/BPO recording, and bought it, and it is really excellent, again beautifully shaped so the whole piece seems to hang together well. The big climax near the end of the slow movement is overwhelming.
> 9th. Always loved the Walter/ColumbiaSO. Of course it's (very good) US players, not the Vienna or even Berlin sound, but he knows the piece so well and shapes it marvellously. The big climax in the slow movement is the end of eight or nine minutes continous build-up, and it's shattering.
> 
> Celibidache I've always found too slow; he loses the plot. Should I try again?
> 
> Interesting to see the large number of people here recommending the Giulini 9th. Its timings are very slow; does it hang together?
> 
> And Furtwangler. I know of two versions of the 8th. with the VPO, 1944 and 1954, and there's one with the BPO. What are they like? Is the sound acceptable and which is the best performance?


"And Furtwangler. I know of two versions of the 8th. with the VPO, 1944 and 1954"
I have 3 recordings of Furtwangler conducting the 8th:
With the Vienna Phil Oct 17, 1944, with the Berlin Phil March 14, 1949 and 1 day later, again with the Berlin Phil, March 15, 1949. Of the 3, I love the last one, March 15, 1949 the most. I can't put it into words better than to say the adagio sounds more beautiful in that one.


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## Andy Foster

Thanks for all the replies and comments to my earlier post.

It set me off finding and listening to more Bruckner symphonies performances. I think only in one case has it altered my favourite recording of a symphony, but I've discovered some wonderful performances.

No. 9. Giulini is very impressive. But it's the darkest performance of 9 I've ever heard. The great climax in the slow movement is terrifying. But the coda has little consolation in it. And the slow tempi mean there are some longueurs - try around 9' or 10' in, in the slow movement. Abbado is very beautiful but for me a little too relaxed, so there are a few longueurs here too. The great climax isn't quite terrible enough for me, though the coda is wonderfully consolatory. It's trite to say it, but it does seem like a valedictory performance. So both very good, and I'm glad I've heard them and will return to them. But Bruno Walter and the Columbia SO are still my favourite.

8. I've now got and heard the 1944 Furtwangler performance and it's very good. I prefer steady tempos in Bruckner but Furtwangler speeds up and slows down so naturally you don't feel he's tugging the music in any way. Contrast with Jochum where, particularly in his later Staatskapelle Dresden recordings, he does seem to me to be pushing and pulling the music around. There's one moment in his 9 where I think the accelerando is really wrong. I haven't found either 1949 recording but when I have time... So Furtwangler is a very good contender but the problem with his tempos for me is not when they happen, but in the piece overall. I feel you lose some of the overall mass and effect. Still narrowly with Karajan/VPO and Wand/BPO therefore.

But the last thing the thread did was get me to acquire Karl Bohm's recordings of 4 and 7 with the VPO. And here is one absolute winner. His 4 is the best I think I've ever heard, more human than Klemperer and with everything seemingly going right. He makes sense of the finale for me, and the coda there is quite wonderful. 7 is almost as good but I wish he had relaxed a little more in the slow movement.

So many thanks again for some excellent listening. I'll keep going. But not immediately because I've had an accidental diversion into Bruno Walter playing Mahler. Why are his wonderful late recordings no longer easily aavailable? Which is a question to Sony, really. I suspect the reason his late Bruckner 9 is not at the top of everyone's list is because they've been unable to acquire it.


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## Merl

I listened to this last week and it's superb. Possibly one of the finest Bruckner 0s ive ever listemed to.


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## iriizumi

The other day I happened to encounter Bruckner's symphony no.1 conducted by Valery Gergiev. I found it amazingly impressive and that it should be highly appreciated by more people who love Bruckner's work. Are there any opinions from those who have already listened?
https://wmg.jp/valery-gergiev/discography/19325/


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## merlinus

Listened to Jochum/RCO Bruckner 5 last night after some time away. A marvelous performance, with excellent SQ! This is the one from 4 Dec. 1986, shortly before he passed on.

Only a few even come close to this, Eichhorn/Linz and Celi, for instance.


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## Andy Foster

merlinus said:


> Listened to Jochum/RCO Bruckner 5 last night after some time away. A marvelous performance, with excellent SQ! This is the one from 4 Dec. 1986, shortly before he passed on.
> 
> Only a few even come close to this, Eichhorn/Linz and Celi, for instance.


I'd love to hear it. The 1958 Jochum recording is the best 5 I know. But the cheapest second hand one I can find is going for £179. So unless it gets re-issued...


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## Merl

I have that Bruckner 5th from 86 and its really good. I second merlinus' recommendation.


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## merlinus

With the passing of one of the founders of Tahra, perhaps another company will purchase its recordings and re-issue them at sensible prices. There are loads of amazing performances in its catalog. The Jochum/B5 is one of them, as is the Furtwangler/LVB 3 near the end of the war.


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## Merl

Tbh, I doubt anyone will take over the Tahra mantle of recordings. I don't think there's enough money in it. Thankfully I found quite a few of the old OOP Tahra discs online, on Ebay and 'elsewhere' (in FLAC) so I have all the ones I wanted.


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## merlinus

In addition to the two Tahra recordings I mentioned (I have those as flacs, not sacds), I have a few others of Furtwangler in SACD format.


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## Josquin13

merlinus said:


> With the passing of one of the founders of Tahra, perhaps another company will purchase its recordings and re-issue them at sensible prices. There are loads of amazing performances in its catalog. The Jochum/B5 is one of them, as is the Furtwangler/LVB 3 near the end of the war.


I believe it's already been done, by a company in Japan. About a year ago--after years of searching--I finally found a reissue of the 1986 live Bruckner 5th conducted by Jochum at the Concertgebouw: which is now back in print in Japan and available either individually, or in a Tahra/Japanese Bruckner box set (see links below). I bought the box set, since I wanted the other Jochum recordings too, and it's become one of the treasures of my Bruckner collection. The 1986 5th is everything that people say it is!--one of the greatest 5ths ever caught on record, & arguably the benchmark, IMO. It seems that Jochum's final years in the concert hall were very special in regards to Bruckner: I also enjoy his live Bruckner 9th with the Munich Philharmonic from around the same period: https://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphony-Tristan-Munchner-Philharmoniker/dp/B00TTD1CEM. That performance, chosen for release by the conductor's daughter, pianist Veronica Jochum, from the Jochum archives, brings back special memories of hearing Jochum conduct the Philadelphia Orchestra in Bruckner's 9th around 1985 or 86. The Munich performance is similar to what I remember hearing that afternoon at the Academy of Music.

I'm not familiar with the 1958 Jochum Bruckner 5th on Tahra, is it the Hamburg State Philharmonic performance?--if so, that's back in print too:

https://tower.jp/item/4423111/Bruckner：-Symphonies-No-4,-No-5,-No-6,-No-7,-No-8
https://tower.jp/item/671506/Bruckner：-Symphony-no-5---Jochum,-Hamburg-State-Philharmonic
https://tower.jp/item/675832/Bruckner：-Symphony-No-5
https://tower.jp/item/784091/Eugen-Jochum-in-Concert---Beethoven,-Mozart,-Bruckner
https://tower.jp/item/2471073/Bruckner：-Symphony-No-5-(12-4-1986)---Eugen-Jochum(cond),-ACO

https://www.ebay.ie/itm/Eugen-Jochu...970-1986-tahra-JAPAN-6CD-set-NEW/123128476618

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/labels/1389/browse

As for Jochum pulling around rhythms, Furtwangler was his idol, & measuring stick. Jochum conducted in the same tradition. Furtwangler himself was a disciple of Schenkerian analysis, which is were the practice comes from. They put the expression of musical content and meaning ahead of uniformly maintaining a steady beat or precise rhythm. It's deliberate. I believe it goes back to the time of Mozart.


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## merlinus

Thanks for the links! Is there an English language page available for it? Hard to tell if it is cd or sacd.

Also, I completely agree re: Jochum/B9/MPO. Exceptional performance.


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## Josquin13

Merlinus--If you mean for the Tower Records Japan website?, no, I don't believe so. It's frustrating, I agree. Tower Records could do much more business if they provided an English translation page, I suspect, like Amazon Japan does. The Tahra box set contains CDs, by the way. The set is available on LP too, for more $$$.


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## Andy Foster

Josquin13 said:


> I believe it's already been done, by a company in Japan. About a year ago--after years of searching--I finally found a reissue of the 1986 live Bruckner 5th conducted by Jochum at the Concertgebouw: which is now back in print in Japan and available either individually, or in a Tahra/Japanese Bruckner box set (see links below). I bought the box set, since I wanted the other Jochum recordings too, and it's become one of the treasures of my Bruckner collection. The 1986 5th is everything that people say it is!--one of the greatest 5ths ever caught on record, & arguably the benchmark, IMO. It seems that Jochum's final years in the concert hall were very special in regards to Bruckner: I also enjoy his live Bruckner 9th with the Munich Philharmonic from around the same period: https://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphony-Tristan-Munchner-Philharmoniker/dp/B00TTD1CEM. That performance, chosen for release by the conductor's daughter, pianist Veronica Jochum, from the Jochum archives, brings back special memories of hearing Jochum conduct the Philadelphia Orchestra in Bruckner's 9th around 1985 or 86. The Munich performance is similar to what I remember hearing that afternoon at the Academy of Music.
> 
> I'm not familiar with the 1958 Jochum Bruckner 5th on Tahra, is it the Hamburg State Philharmonic performance?--if so, that's back in print too:
> 
> https://tower.jp/item/4423111/Bruckner：-Symphonies-No-4,-No-5,-No-6,-No-7,-No-8
> https://tower.jp/item/671506/Bruckner：-Symphony-no-5---Jochum,-Hamburg-State-Philharmonic
> https://tower.jp/item/675832/Bruckner：-Symphony-No-5
> https://tower.jp/item/784091/Eugen-Jochum-in-Concert---Beethoven,-Mozart,-Bruckner
> https://tower.jp/item/2471073/Bruckner：-Symphony-No-5-(12-4-1986)---Eugen-Jochum(cond),-ACO
> 
> https://www.ebay.ie/itm/Eugen-Jochu...970-1986-tahra-JAPAN-6CD-set-NEW/123128476618
> 
> https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/labels/1389/browse
> 
> As for Jochum pulling around rhythms, Furtwangler was his idol, & measuring stick. Jochum conducted in the same tradition. Furtwangler himself was a disciple of Schenkerian analysis, which is were the practice comes from. They put the expression of musical content and meaning ahead of uniformly maintaining a steady beat or precise rhythm. It's deliberate. I believe it goes back to the time of Mozart.


The 1958 Jochum 5 is the familiar one, the Bavarian RSO performance on DG. For me it's wonderful, all the way from that stalking bass and blazon of brass at the start, to the final climax, where I've never heard the musical stroke (the last note of the rising theme turning into the first note of the chorale) sound both so tremendous a shock and yet so right. I don't think the Staatskapelle Dresden performance is as good. And I've recently been deeply disappointed by the Jascha Horenstein BBC performance, strongly recommended here, but for me pedestrian. Dohnanyi is very good.

I was sad to be disappointed in both cases. I bought the Jochum box partly to replace a lost copy of his 1980 Bach B Minor Mass which I love. And his Bruckner choral recordings are marvellous. Also I love Horenstein's Nielsen and Mahler.

Thank you very much for that explanation of Jochum, Furtwangler and Schenker. I'm sure you're right. I think the problem with that approach sometimes in Bruckner is that the music needs a tremendous sense of mass and flexible tempos can drain it away. Even, slightly, in Furtwangler's 1944 Bruckner 8. It seems right as it goes, but at the end you feel just a bit short changed.

And so to the meat of this at last: Topic Records Japan's issue of the 1986 Jochum Bruckner 5. Unfortunately it's a website in Japanese and a buying programme (Buyee) which I can't understand. It looks as if I'll have to wwait for a friendly importer, alas.


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## Granate

It is confirmed: Gerd Schaller and the Ebrach Summer music festival have set September 4th 2024 to release the *Complete Bruckner Collection on Profil* with Schaller and Philharmonie Festiva, with all the Bruckner compositions plus all the versions of every symphony. Most of them recorded in the Ebrach Abbey.

Next year, they'll perform the Vienna Version of Symphony No.1 in Bad Kissingen, and both Mass No.1 and Te Deum in Ebrach Abbey with the Prague Radio Philharmonic Orchestra.


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## Kollwitz

Finally ready to have a go at this:
4 - Wand BPO
5 - Zander, Wand NDR
6 - Klemperer complete, Furtwangler torso is my favourite version of movements 2,3 and 4
7 - Bohm VPO, Jochum Dresden
8 - Wand Lubeck NDR, Boulez VPO, Furtwangler VPO '44
9 - Giulini VPO, Furtwangler BPO '44


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## philoctetes

Knappertsbusch where are you?


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## Zhdanov

*Bruckner 9th* - Gennady Rozhdestvensky _(USSR Ministry of Culture Symphony Orchestra)_


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## elgar's ghost

I hope the above isn't as dreadful as this wildly unhinged 5th - I'm still unsure as to whether Gennady was having an off day or if some members of the orchestra were on various illicit substances. It's still the only Bruckner recording I've heard where the brass seems to be in canon with itself, almost like a parody of Ives.


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## Gondowe

Possibly I missed in the thread,, but, what are your oppinions about Wand's last concert with the 4th. Ndr. I think is a nice reading but below his previous with ndr and berlin.


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## DarkAngel

I just got this live Rosbaud 2-9 boxset under $40 at Amazon, mono recordings from mid 1950s.....

Not saying he is a master of Bruckner but collectors should check out, very fast tempos look at 8th time 72:42 vs Karajan WP 82:49










Smaller set was previously available......


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## goldiver

Some favourite recordings (mostly newer for me):


3rd - Barenboim, Berlin Staatskapelle
4th - Böhm, VPO
5th - Haitink, Bayerischer Rundfunk
6th - Bongartz, Leipzig Gewandhaus
7th - Jansons, Bayerischer Rundfunk
8th - Jansons, Bayerischer Rundfunk
9th - Giulini, VPO


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## Dimace

1 to 9: Celibidache, Wand. 
0 & 00 : Rojdestvenski

Also:

4e: Kabasta.
9e: Sawallisch.


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## Dimace

DarkAngel said:


> I just got this live Rosbaud 2-9 boxset under $40 at Amazon, mono recordings from mid 1950s.....
> 
> Not saying he is a master of Bruckner but collectors should check out, very fast tempos look at 8th time 72:42 vs Karajan WP 82:49
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smaller set was previously available......


Rosbaud was the Kabastas successor in Munich P.O. In every aspect a real tragedy for the music...


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## Manxfeeder

Dimace said:


> Rosbaud was the Kabastas successor in Munich P.O. In every aspect a real tragedy for the music...


Would you explain that? I'm just a little unclear what the tragedy was. Thanks.


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## Granate

Manxfeeder said:


> Would you explain that? I'm just a little unclear what the tragedy was. Thanks.


Considered one of the great Brucknerians of his time. Hardcore Nazi supporter but not more than Karl Böhm. Conductor of the Münich Philharmonic AKA the city of the Nationalsocialist movement. Banned from conducting after the World War II. Commited suicide in 1946.


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## Dimace

Manxfeeder said:


> Would you explain that? I'm just a little unclear what the tragedy was. Thanks.


It was perfectly explained from our friend Granate. Thanks for the answer.

*Kabasta's wife, also committed suicide.


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## Josquin13

Yet Kabasta claimed to be "inwardly anti-Nazi"--who knows what the truth was. Maybe he greatly feared them, & put on an outward show of support. If so, that would only deepen his tragedy. However, Kabasta did sign all his letters, "Heil Hitler". I find it strange that the Allies focused so intently on Kabasta in 1945, and yet it was okay that other conductors like Karajan had joined the Nazi party not once, but twice.


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## Manxfeeder

Granate said:


> Considered one of the great Brucknerians of his time. Hardcore Nazi supporter but not more than Karl Böhm. Conductor of the Münich Philharmonic AKA the city of the Nationalsocialist movement. Banned from conducting after the World War II. Commited suicide in 1946.


That is tragic. Now that I'm aware of him, I'm listening to his recording of Bruckner's 4th.


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## Dimace

Josquin13 said:


> Yet Kabasta claimed to be "inwardly anti-Nazi"--who knows what the truth was. Maybe he greatly feared them, & put on an outward show of support. If so, that would only deepen his tragedy. However, Kabasta did sign all his letters, "Heil Hitler". I find it strange that the Allies focused so intently on Kabasta in 1945, and yet it was okay that other conductors like Karajan had joined the Nazi party not once, but twice.





Manxfeeder said:


> That is tragic. Now that I'm aware of him, I'm listening to his recording of Bruckner's 4th.


I can assure you that EVERYONE who wanted to survive artistically in Germany during the Nazi regime, has done the same with Kabasta: Became member of the NPD (or ÖND) or he "sold" friendship and admiration to Hitler... Otherwise the deportation or the death penalty was a certainty. The example of Erwin Schulhoff, is one amongst many with very bad end for the composer and his family. If you ever come to Berlin, you can see small metallic pieces planted inside the sidewalks. They have the names of all these unlucky artists they ended in a concertation camp or lost their lives. They are everywhere and they are thousands. I always try not to step on them...


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## Eramire156

If you are interested in Kabasta's Bruckner 4th, be sure to listen to his 7th and 9th with Munich, all powerful performances. If I remember correctly Kabasta'S wife also attempted suicide, survived, but later was successful.


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## Dimace

Eramire156 said:


> If you are interested in Kabasta's Bruckner 4th, be sure to listen to his 7th and 9th with Munich, all powerful performances. If I remember correctly Kabasta'S wife also attempted suicide, survived, but later was successful.


Kabasta is a power house with Bruckner. I agree 100% with you. You are also correct with his wife (I mentioned it in an other post above)


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## Merl

Josquin13 said:


> Yet Kabasta claimed to be "inwardly anti-Nazi"--who knows what the truth was. Maybe he greatly feared them, & put on an outward show of support. If so, that would only deepen his tragedy. However, Kabasta did sign all his letters, "Heil Hitler". I find it strange that the Allies focused so intently on Kabasta in 1945, and yet it was okay that other conductors like Karajan had joined the Nazi party not once, but twice.


The question of whether Kabasta was 'inwardly anti-Nazi' will never be known. He was certainly unfortunate in some respects but he made a bit of a rod for his own back. His biggest own goal (and one that other conductors implicated with the Nazis didn't make) was claiming that he had never been a Nazi Party member (Bohm and Karajan admitted it). When the allies looked onto these claims they discovered he had a membership number from 1938. The final nail in the coffin being a further discovery that he had previously joined in 1932 (the year before Karajan). Initially seen as a 'borderline case' it started getting worse as the Allies investigated his letters and discovered (as others have said) that he signed his letters with 'Heil Hitler'. Further evidence went against him in that he had knowingly employed a member of the SS as his assistant conductor. Kabasta couldn't take his fall from grace (he was a very proud man) and feeing humiliated he killed himself. The sad thing is that he was no worse than many of those embroiled in the Nazi debate and would probably have been able to resume conducting a few years later.


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## Dimace

Merl said:


> The question of whether Kabasta was 'inwardly anti-Nazi' will never be known. He was certainly unfortunate in some respects but he made a bit of a rod for his own back. His biggest own goal (and one that other conductors implicated with the Nazis didn't make) was claiming that he had never been a Nazi Party member (Bohm and Karajan admitted it). When the allies looked onto these claims they discovered he had a membership number from 1938. The final nail in the coffin being a further discovery that he had previously joined in 1932 (the year before Karajan). Initially seen as a 'borderline case' it started getting worse as the Allies investigated his letters and discovered (as others have said) that he signed his letters with 'Heil Hitler'. Further evidence went against him in that he had knowingly employed a member of the SS as his assistant conductor. Kabasta couldn't take his fall from grace (he was a very proud man) and feeing humiliated he killed himself. The sad thing is that he was no worse than many of those embroiled in the Nazi debate and would probably have been able to resume conducting a few years later.


Only something I and the other posters has forgotten to mention: His music programm, in Wien and in München was super liberal in comparison with some other directors they contacted ONLY what the Nazis had approved. A very dark music and political story, could make in the future a good scenario for the movies.


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## Merl

Dimace said:


> Only something I and the other posters has forgotten to mention: His music programm, in Wien and in München was super liberal in comparison with some other directors they contacted ONLY what the Nazis had approved. A very dark music and political story, could make in the future a good scenario for the movies.


Tbh, from what ive read he programmed plenty of 'dodgy' works for performance (stuff the Nazis baulked at) but he was highly regarded by some Nazis in the top brass so he flew under the cultural radar. He seems to have been innovative, quite open-minded and forward-thinking in his choice of music. I just think he was unlucky to some extent and all the 'evidence' added up so that 1+1 made 4. We'll never know if he was a staunch Nazi as there is so little documentation about his beliefs. If he'd held out for a few years he'd still have been around for some time. Yeah, a sad tale.


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## joen_cph

Apparently he did lie in his final letter about having quit the party totally in 1938 though; he paid the membership fee throughout 1940 too. But then apparently stopped.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oswald_Kabasta


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## Josquin13

We shouldn't forget that there were three very prominent German conductors that refused to join the Nazi Party--Wilhelm Furtwangler, Eugen Jochum, and Hans Knappertsbusch (all three excellent Bruckner & Wagner conductors). It hurt Knappertsbusch's career, yet for some reason the Nazi's left Jochum alone. I've often wondered about that. Maybe even they could recognize that Jochum was a man of integrity. Or, perhaps they thought that there was a shortage of top flight conductors.


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## joen_cph

Of course, Scherchen was an ardent anti-Nazi, and left in 1933.

I´ve got a lot of his recordings but I actually haven´t heard his Bruckner 2nd, would suppose that there is some sketchy playing but interesting ideas as regards tempi and accents.


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## Granate

Josquin13 said:


> We shouldn't forget that there were three very prominent German conductors that refused to join the Nazi Party--Wilhelm Furtwangler, Eugen Jochum, and Hans Knappertsbusch (all three excellent Bruckner & Wagner conductors). It hurt Knappertsbusch's career, yet for some reason the Nazi's left Jochum alone.


Wasn't Hitler quite mouthful on Kna (alledgedly)? Who has the sources besides being insulted as a militar band conductor?


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## Josquin13

Yes, I think you're right, Hitler was involved in Knappertsbusch losing his post in Munich. Conversely, Hitler also vetoed attempts by Himmler (or was it Goebbels?) to send Furtwängler to a concentration camp for helping save the lives of Jewish musicians (and later in the war non-musicians).


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## Merl

Josquin13 said:


> Yes, I think you're right, Hitler was involved in Knappertsbusch losing his post in Munich. Conversely, Hitler also vetoed attempts by Himmler (or was it Goebbels?) to send Furtwängler to a concentration camp for helping save the lives of Jewish musicians (and later in the war non-musicians).


I find Furtwangler's story absolutely riveting. Ive been doing a lot of reading sround him at the moment.


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## DavidA

Josquin13 said:


> Yes, I think you're right, Hitler was involved in Knappertsbusch losing his post in Munich. Conversely, Hitler also vetoed attempts by Himmler (or was it Goebbels?) to send Furtwängler to a concentration camp for helping save the lives of Jewish musicians (and later in the war non-musicians).


Living under tyranny was obviously like walking on eggshells. Certainly Hitler was involved with Karajan's demotion from the front rank after being displeased with a performance of Mastersingers.


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## Granate

Hey guys. I'm not profusely into listening to Bruckner now and less placing here a rank of favourite recordings, but I'm now listening to a very rare recording of the Wiener Philharmoniker under Herbert Blomstedt that is only sold in the official online and phisical stores of the WPO in precisely Vienna.

I'm not moved to tears by the conducting, while it is certainly first class and never over the top. But this playing is something worthy of Böhm and Karajan. Give it a listen before its taken down. A rarity played in a concert from 2017.


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## hoodjem

Chi_townPhilly said:


> As the owner of some 3-dozen Bruckner discs, I'd like to weigh in more on this when my time permits... but (to accentuate the positive) I'll agree with the mention of Furtwängler in Bruckner's 8th (I have the '57 mono Vienna Phil recording).


The date you mention here must be the release date, given that Furtwängler died in November 1954.


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## hoodjem

Brahmsian Colors said:


> #3 Schuricht/Vienna Philharmonic
> #4 Kertesz/London Symphony
> #5 Knappertsbusch/Vienna Philharmonic
> #6 Klemperer/New Philharmonia Orchestra
> #7 Kabasta/Munich Philharmonic, Giulini Vienna Phiharmonic
> #8 Knappertsbusch/Berlin Philharmonic
> #9 Walter/Columbia Symphony


I was just about to ask ask: no love for Bruno Walter's Bruckner interpretations in these pages?

(I think his fourth is very, very good.)


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## Heck148

hoodjem said:


> I was just about to ask ask: no love for Bruno Walter's Bruckner interpretations in these pages?
> (I think his fourth is very, very good.)


Yes, Walter's recordings are excellent 4, 7, 9....favorites of mine.


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## DarkAngel

My top choices for 6,7,8,9 has not changed for many years......but I keep listening for any
challenger to the throne 

As a bonus on the 2CD Bohm set you get one of the very best Schubert 9ths!


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## RogerWaters

My top choices for 4, 7, 8, and 9.


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## Gray Bean

4: Celibidache/Munich Phil
5: Skrowaczewski/Saarbrucken RSO
6: Blomstedt/San Francisco SO
7: Solti/Chicago SO
8: Knappertsbusch/Munich Phil
9: Giulini/Vienna Phil

OR

4: Honeck/Pittsburgh SO
5: Thielmann/Munich Phil DG
6: Klemperer/Philharmonia EMI
7: Karajan/Vienna Phil 
8: Karajan/Vienna Phil
9: Karajan/BPO (from cycle)

THERE is also a great live B4 with Klemperer and the Bavarian RSO on EMI.


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## Gray Bean

Cycles or partial boxes:
Walter on Columbia
Stanislaw Skrowaczewski
Jochum on DG
Karajan on DG Blu-ray 
Knappertsbusch on Eloquence
Barenboim/CSO
Solti/CSO


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## mahlerenigmatic




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## mahlerenigmatic




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## Gray Bean

That FWM B5 is a ringer! I agree!


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## Brahmsianhorn

Top choice overall:










Modern sound:


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## Brahmsianhorn




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## blondheim

I may walk a lonely road here, but I really like Maazel's BR Klassik cycle.


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## Alfacharger

Tennstedt and the BSO, Bruckner's 8th in 1974.


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## Gray Bean

That Furtwangler Box is great! I've never heard Bruckner in the same way since I heard those records. A great 8th! The way he changes tempo to suit the music is always just perfect. His phrasing. I love it! Of course, there are many ways to play Bruckner and I have so many "favorites". But this is great music making.


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## mahlerenigmatic

I finally got around to listening to that 9th with CMG and the VPO (that Universal Music Group which has the rights to DG has been releasing everything you can think of on yt this past year) Anyways the recordings are more spaced out and the sound is great. I will listen to more of it later on. Thanks for the recommendations guys.


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## Gray Bean

mahlerenigmatic said:


> I finally got around to listening to that 9th with CMG and the VPO (that Universal Music Group which has the rights to DG has been releasing everything you can think of on yt this past year) Anyways the recordings are more spaced out and the sound is great. I will listen to more of it later on. Thanks for the recommendations guys.


Enjoy! It's one of the great ones!


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## Brahmsianhorn

Just listened again to the Karajan DG BPO 7th. My goodness it is fantastic. So powerful. I know the VPO is easier to find and has better sound, but I really think the earlier one is better concentrated. EMI Karajan is good too, ethereally beautiful, but the DG BPO just really hits it out of the park.


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## UniversalTuringMachine

^ With the right system, that Karajan BPO 7th is a trascendent experience. You can tell Karajan really had an affinity with this piece.

Skrowaczewski's Blueray of the 8th is worth it. But you have to import it from Japan.

For jaded Brucknerians, I recommend the brisk and light Venzago CPO cycle and ultra-heavy, volcanic Knappertsbusch. Be warned, these are spicier than your usual Bruckner and not for the faint of heart (they are good).


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## flamencosketches

Heck148, if you see this post, I'm curious to ask you something: What are some of the highlights of Georg Solti's Bruckner recordings w/ the Chicago Symphony? I'm really curious to hear his Bruckner, and unfortunately it seems to have few champions here. 

Anyway, relevant to the thread topic, I'm certainly becoming an on-and-off Bruckner addict. Here are some of my favorite recordings per symphony...:

No.3: Wand/NDR
No.4: Celibidache/Munich/EMI
No.6: Bongartz/Leipzig (I have it as a Klassic Haus reissue, unsure of original label—amazing performance)
No.7: Karajan/Vienna/DG

For all the others I didn't name, I'm either not yet familiar w/ to decide or there is no clear front runner.


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## Azol

I would venture to say that B4 and B6 are the highlights of the Celibidache's Munchen cycle on EMI, so if you happened to enjoy his Fourth, be sure to listen to his Sixth.
Never could see an appeal of Solti in Bruckner, he is much more a Mahler specialist in my point of view.
Surprisingly, Bernstein is also fitting into Mahler camp, kinda counter-intuitive, especially when you consider his expansive and sublime reading of M2 and M3.
Which makes me think the two composers actually have nothing in common except for being generally labeled as "Late Romantic". Hans Rott is the missing link between the two soundworlds.


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## Manxfeeder

UniversalTuringMachine said:


> For jaded Brucknerians, I recommend . . . ultra-heavy, volcanic Knappertsbusch.


Which recording of Knappertsbusch? I have the Memories Reverence set. Is that the one or is there another one?


----------



## vincula

Manxfeeder said:


> Which recording of Knappertsbusch? I have the Memories Reverence set. Is that the one or is there another one?


You've got this nice Audite box too:

















Regards,

Vincula


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## HenryPenfold

Azol said:


> I would venture to say that B4 and B6 are the highlights of the Celibidache's Munchen cycle on EMI, so if you happened to enjoy his Fourth, be sure to listen to his Sixth.
> Never could see an appeal of Solti in Bruckner, he is much more a Mahler specialist in my point of view.
> Surprisingly, Bernstein is also fitting into Mahler camp, kinda counter-intuitive, especially when you consider his expansive and sublime reading of M2 and M3.
> Which makes me think the two composers actually have nothing in common except for being generally labeled as "Late Romantic". Hans Rott is the missing link between the two soundworlds.


I agree with your comments regarding Celi's Bruckner (except the finale of 6 is a bit of a let down).

Hans Rott? Is he the chap that wrote Mahler 1? :lol:


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## Heck148

flamencosketches said:


> Heck148, if you see this post, I'm curious to ask you something: What are some of the highlights of Georg Solti's Bruckner recordings w/ the Chicago Symphony? I'm really curious to hear his Bruckner, and unfortunately it seems to have few champions here.


Solti's CSO Bruckner set is really marvelous....Solti is often accused of just aiming for the high spots, being overly dramatic at the big climaxes, etc, etc...but for Bruckner...what could be better?? his music just thrives on the tension-release formula - the long crescendi to shattering climax...Solti/CSO deliver big time with fabulous, exciting presentations that do not neglect the quieter sections...Also - Solti generally moves things along, which prevents the often problematic disjointed, episodic appearance of Bruckner's symphonies...they can sound "disconnected". Solti ties things together very well - keeps the drama flowing...some find Solti's Bruckner to be too brash, too flamboyant, too brilliant, etc...but it is thrilling to hear.

#3 - a real highlight....along with Barenboim's CSO version my favorite..actually Solti drives it along better.
#4 - Solti's is very good, but I prefer Barenboim/CSO and Walter/ColSO...Barenboim's is amazing....incredible dynamic range, and flexibility of phrasing, esp in the brass...
#5 - I've never clicked with this work, and as I posted on a different thread - it seems disjointed, episodic to me...of all the versions I've heard, Solti does the best job of keeping it together, at least for me.

#'s 6,7,8,9 - all totally top-notch - great recordings - #6 has electric excitement from the get-go - the nervous "radio-telegraph morse code" in the violins setting the tone right from the edge.
#7 - overall my favorite B7, in a hugely competitive field. Every mvt is excellent - Great Adagio, Scherzo...I heard them play it live in Carnegie Hall - magical - the opening was _inaudible_....you never actually heard the violins start the tremolo..it just sort of "appeared".
#8 - Solti recorded it twice - with VPO in '60s, with CSO in '90/live from Leningrad when CSO was on tour. Again - Solti really moves it along, with some incredible orchestra work...I believe this recording presents the biggest brass section sound I've ever heard on a recording!! really incredible...
#9 - my favorite B9 - Solti just gets it right, throughout....I esp love the long tenor tuba sections in the finale, so beautifully done....these finicky instruments can be troublesome...really barbaric energy and rhythm in the scherzo...
I've not listened too much to the early symphonies as of yet....at present, for me, Bruckner's "arrival" as a major symphonist seems to start with #3...


----------



## Azol

HenryPenfold said:


> Hans Rott? Is he the chap that wrote Mahler 1? :lol:


Some of the stuff he did (especially in the Scherzo, clearly the most advanced of the four movements) pre-dates Mahler's 1-5 material at least. There's a lot to analyze. I was so amazed at having heard Rott's Symphony being performed live, I started collecting different recordings and obtained several of those, including by Dennis Russel Davies, Sebastian Weigle and Paavo Jarvi. All came bundled with different smaller-scale works so was very worth it.


----------



## Azol

Heck148 said:


> #5 - I've never clicked with this work, and as I posted on a different thread - it seems disjointed, episodic to me...of all the versions I've heard, Solti does the best job of keeping it together, at least for me.


First of all, thanks for the detailed review of the Solti's Bruckner set, maybe it's time for me to give it another listen, tastes do change and I have great respect for all that Sir Georg has achieved, both in opera and symphonic repertoir.

As for B5- funnily enough, this is one of the most coherent in my opinion, due to the way Bruckner works with his themes, Finale is just mindblowing. It's so logical and entertaining at the same time, I can easily listen to the whole work playing in my mind.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

Heck148 said:


> Solti is often accused of just aiming for the high spots, being overly dramatic at the big climaxes, etc, etc...but for Bruckner...what could be better??


I dunno, performances that both make great music out of the quieter sections and have powerful climaxes? Call me crazy...


----------



## Heck148

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I dunno, performances that both make great music out of the quieter sections and have powerful climaxes? Call me crazy...


No, that is good.....remember, I said that Solti is _accused_ of just aiming for the high spots....I don't agree with that accusation....It is the contrast that makes each so effective....you need both ends of the dynamic scale.
you know, of course, that orchestra musicians are quite lazy - they will quite readily slip into a sort of "mezzo-mezzo" mode of playing - everything mp - mf or forte....nothing is really soft, nothing is really loud...The greatest conductors will not allow that, they want the full dynamic range. They challenge the musicians to the utmost in this regard.


----------



## gvn

Manxfeeder said:


> Which recording of Knappertsbusch? I have the Memories Reverence set. Is that the one or is there another one?


Just this year, all Knappertsbusch's complete studio Bruckners (Nos. 3, 4, 5, and 8) have been collected for the first time on a cheap Eloquence set. His live Bruckners (Nos. 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, and 9) have been collected on half a dozen labels. Best sound quality, I think, is on the Japanese Tahra/King set (though it isn't cheap and doesn't include No. 7); second best, the Profil set (though that also includes Brahms and extends to 10 CDs). But even the bootleg Melodram, Memories, & Andromeda sets have serviceable sound.

Setting aside single-disc releases etc., the details are as follows:

*SYMPHONY NO. 3*

*Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra (studio, 04.1954): *Eloquence ELQ 4828800 (4 CDs)

*Bavarian State Orchestra (11.10.1954):* Music & Arts CD-1256 (6 CDs), Andromeda ANDR CD 9010 (6 CDs), Profil PH 18048 (10 CDs)

*NDR Symphony Orchestra (15.01.1962):* Music & Arts CD-1028 (6 CDs), Tahra/King KKC 4160 (6 CDs)

*Munich Philharmonic Orchestra (Munich, 16.01.1964):* Golden Melodram GM 4.0008 (7 CDs), Memories MR 2326/2331 (6 CDs)

*SYMPHONY NO. 4 *

*Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (Baden-Baden, 08.09.1944):* Music & Arts CD-1028 (6 CDs), Music & Arts CD-1256 (6 CDs), Andromeda ANDR CD 9010 (6 CDs), Profil PH 18048 (10 CDs), Tahra/King KKC 4160 (6 CDs)

*Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra (studio, 04.1955):* Eloquence ELQ 4828800 (4 CDs)

*Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra (12.04.1964):* Golden Melodram GM 4.0008 (7 CDs), Memories MR 2326/2331 (6 CDs)

*SYMPHONY NO. 5 *

*Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra (studio, 05.1956): *Eloquence ELQ 4828800 (4 CDs), Andromeda ANDR CD 9010 (6 CDs), Profil PH 18048 (10 CDs)

*Munich Philharmonic Orchestra (19.03.1959):* Music & Arts CD-1028 (6 CDs), Music & Arts CD-1256 (6 CDs), Golden Melodram GM 4.0008 (7 CDs), Memories MR 2326/2331 (6 CDs)

*SYMPHONY NO. 7*

*Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra (Salzburg, 30.08.1949):* Music & Arts CD-1028 (6 CDs), Music & Arts CD-1256 (6 CDs), Golden Melodram GM 4.0008 (7 CDs), Andromeda ANDR CD 9010 (6 CDs), Profil PH 18048 (10 CDs), Memories MR 2326/2331 (6 CDs)

*SYMPHONY NO. 8 *

*Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (07-08.01.1951): *Tahra/King KKC 4160 (6 CDs), Music & Arts CD-1028 (6 CDs), Music & Arts CD-1256 (6 CDs), Andromeda ANDR CD 9010 (6 CDs), Profil PH 18048 (10 CDs)

*Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra (29.10.1961):* Golden Melodram GM 4.0008 (7 CDs)

*Munich Philharmonic Orchestra (24.01.1963):* Memories MR 2326/2331 (6 CDs)

*Munich Philharmonic Orchestra (studio, 01.1963):* Eloquence ELQ 4828800 (4 CDs)
*
SYMPHONY NO. 9 *

*Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (28.01.1950):* Tahra/King KKC 4160 (6 CDs), Andromeda ANDR CD 9010 (6 CDs), Profil PH 18048 (10 CDs)

*Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (29-30.01.1950):* Tahra/King KKC 4160 (6 CDs), Music & Arts CD-1028 (6 CDs), Music & Arts CD-1256 (6 CDs), Memories MR 2326/2331 (6 CDs)

*Bavarian State Orchestra (Munich, 10.02.1958): *Golden Melodram GM 4.0008 (7 CDs)

If all of you promise never to tell anyone, not even your closest friend (if any), I'll confess that we have every one of those sets on our shelves (except the first Music & Arts release, which was much inferior to the second). My wife & I play huge quantities of Knappertsbusch (Beethoven & Brahms, as well as Bruckner & Wagner). In fact, she would argue seriously that Kna was the greatest of all Bruckner conductors. (She also tolerates Furtwängler and Celibidache, but she would object that Fw tended to mold Bruckner to conform to his own personal neuroses and Celi tended to mold him to conform to his own personal religion, whereas Kna never gives the impression of forcing the music to conform to his own private needs.)

WARNING however: ALL Kna's Bruckner recordings are of the Schalk/Loewe editions rejected in 1933. (In most cases, in fact, they're the only satisfactory way to hear those editions on record.)


----------



## flamencosketches

gvn said:


> WARNING however: ALL Kna's Bruckner recordings are of the Schalk/Loewe editions rejected in 1933. (In most cases, in fact, they're the only satisfactory way to hear those editions on record.)


Rejected why? Please excuse my ignorance, I'm a neophyte to Bruckner in the grand scheme of things but I am curious to hear Knappertsbusch's Bruckner.

@Heck, thanks for that. I will have to listen to that 7th.


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## Manxfeeder

gvn said:


> Just this year, all Knappertsbusch's complete studio Bruckners (Nos. 3, 4, 5, and 8) have been collected for the first time on a cheap Eloquence set.)


Hey, it's on Spotify. I'm listening to the 8th. Thanks!


----------



## NLAdriaan

Heck148 said:


> Solti's CSO Bruckner set is really marvelous....Solti is often accused of just aiming for the high spots, being overly dramatic at the big climaxes, etc, etc...but for Bruckner...what could be better?? his music just thrives on the tension-release formula - the long crescendi to shattering climax...Solti/CSO deliver big time with fabulous, exciting presentations that do not neglect the quieter sections...Also - Solti generally moves things along, which prevents the often problematic disjointed, episodic appearance of Bruckner's symphonies...they can sound "disconnected". Solti ties things together very well - keeps the drama flowing...some find Solti's Bruckner to be too brash, too flamboyant, too brilliant, etc...but it is thrilling to hear.
> 
> #3 - a real highlight....along with Barenboim's CSO version my favorite..actually Solti drives it along better.
> #4 - Solti's is very good, but I prefer Barenboim/CSO and Walter/ColSO...Barenboim's is amazing....incredible dynamic range, and flexibility of phrasing, esp in the brass...
> #5 - I've never clicked with this work, and as I posted on a different thread - it seems disjointed, episodic to me...of all the versions I've heard, Solti does the best job of keeping it together, at least for me.
> 
> #'s 6,7,8,9 - all totally top-notch - great recordings - #6 has electric excitement from the get-go - the nervous "radio-telegraph morse code" in the violins setting the tone right from the edge.
> #7 - overall my favorite B7, in a hugely competitive field. Every mvt is excellent - Great Adagio, Scherzo...I heard them play it live in Carnegie Hall - magical - the opening was _inaudible_....you never actually heard the violins start the tremolo..it just sort of "appeared".
> #8 - Solti recorded it twice - with VPO in '60s, with CSO in '90/live from Leningrad when CSO was on tour. Again - Solti really moves it along, with some incredible orchestra work...I believe this recording presents the biggest brass section sound I've ever heard on a recording!! really incredible...
> #9 - my favorite B9 - Solti just gets it right, throughout....I esp love the long tenor tuba sections in the finale, so beautifully done....these finicky instruments can be troublesome...really barbaric energy and rhythm in the scherzo...
> I've not listened too much to the early symphonies as of yet....at present, for me, Bruckner's "arrival" as a major symphonist seems to start with #3...


Thanks for your enthusiastic plea. To me, however, Solti and the Chicago fanfare blow Bruckner to pieces. I prefer my bruckner to be served more subtle and natural. I agree with you on starting with #3. To me, a good set would consist of:
#3: VPO Haitink
#4: MPO Celi 
#5: BPO Wand/Harnoncourt, BRSO Haitink
#6: MPO Celi
#7: VPO Karajan, BPO Wand
#8: VPO Boulez/Haitink/Karajan, BPO Wand
#9: Lucerne Abbado, RCO Haitink, BPO Wand, VPO Giulini

#5 would be my first choice of the cycle.


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## Heck148

NLAdriaan said:


> Thanks for your enthusiastic plea. To me, however, Solti and the Chicago fanfare blow Bruckner to pieces. I prefer my bruckner to be served more subtle and natural. I agree with you on starting with #3.


I love it blown to pieces!! I love a brilliant brassy sound for Bruckner, Wagner, Mahler....i don't care for this present trend of using rotary valve trumpets for all Bruckner...it's too blendy, mellow, round. I like the brilliance of the piston valves - for me the balance of cylindrical bore instruments (trumpets, trombones) with conical bore instruments (horn, tuba) is best preserved with piston valve trumpets...gives that needed brilliance when required....that said, the VPO gets quite a good, brilliant sound from the rotary trumpets...


----------



## gvn

flamencosketches said:


> Rejected why? Please excuse my ignorance, I'm a neophyte to Bruckner in the grand scheme of things but I am curious to hear Knappertsbusch's Bruckner.


There have been many heated debates as to the "best" editions of Bruckner's symphonies. He was an inveterate reviser, and late in his life revised editions of his symphonies were issued in collaboration with the Schalk brothers and/or Ferdinand Loewe. There are three issues about those editions.

1. To what extent were the changes in those editions approved by Bruckner? A few of the changes certainly originated from Bruckner himself; a few others originated with the revisers but were explicitly approved by Bruckner; but others, no doubt, were made by the revisers without consulting Bruckner at all. Thus, in my view, the question of Bruckner's "final wishes" can never be fully determined.

2. Some listeners find the Schalk/Loewe editions esthetically preferable (regardless of their authenticity or lack thereof); others emphatically find the reverse. (And I suspect that quite a few listeners simply don't notice the difference.)

3. The situation was complicated by politics. Bruckner's late collaborators were Jewish, and in 1930s Germany this was held up as an arch-example of innocent Aryan genius misled by furtive Jewish cunning. (Bruckner's great editor Haas was an enthusiastic advocate of Hitler's racial theories.)

The ever-invaluable website www.abruckner.com has nearly (not quite!) accurate lists of which recordings follow which editions of the various symphonies. Loewe's edition of No. 4 was recorded by Furtwängler and Bruno Walter, as well as Knappertsbusch, but for most of the other symphonies, Kna's are the only significant recordings of the Schalk/Loewe editions.

The Eloquence set may be particularly attractive because it contains precisely the four symphonies (3, 4, 5, and 8) where the Schalk/Loewe editions are likely to preserve a substantial proportion of changes authorized or approved by Bruckner himself.


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## flamencosketches

^Thanks for the explanation. I'm quite familiar with the problem of many versions, many revisions in Bruckner's music, but I hadn't heard much about the Schalk/Loewe editions before. 

@Heck, I listened to the first movement of Solti's Bruckner 3. This is definitely quite different from most of the Bruckner I know and love, but wow, that was killer! Thanks for the recs!


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## gvn

flamencosketches said:


> ^Thanks for the explanation. I'm quite familiar with the problem of many versions, many revisions in Bruckner's music, but I hadn't heard much about the Schalk/Loewe editions before.


Yes, until recently it seemed as if the S/L editions had fallen off the radar altogether: the only debates were Haas vs Nowak in 8, Linz vs Vienna in 1, etc.

I think listeners today may be becoming more pluralistic, less inclined to stamp any one edition as unequivocally the "best," more inclined to feel that different editions may be attractive in different ways.


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## flamencosketches

gvn said:


> Yes, until recently it seemed as if the S/L editions had fallen off the radar altogether: the only debates were Haas vs Nowak in 8, Linz vs Vienna in 1, etc.
> 
> I think listeners today may be becoming more pluralistic, less inclined to stamp any one edition as unequivocally the "best," more inclined to feel that different editions may be attractive in different ways.


That sounds like a good thing, no?


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## Azol

Considering multiple editions, you should give B4/Inbal (original version) a good listen, it's almost like a new Bruckner symphony you've never heard before!


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## Spy Car

Azol said:


> Considering multiple editions, you should give B4/Inbal (original version) a good listen, it's almost like a new Bruckner symphony you've never heard before!


Is this (for reference) the recoding you are referring to by Inbal?

https://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphony-No-4/dp/B00021T5SU

Bill


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## Brahmsianhorn

NLAdriaan said:


> Thanks for your enthusiastic plea. To me, however, Solti and the Chicago fanfare blow Bruckner to pieces. I prefer my bruckner to be served more subtle and natural. I agree with you on starting with #3. To me, a good set would consist of:
> #3: VPO Haitink
> #4: MPO Celi
> #5: BPO Wand/Harnoncourt, BRSO Haitink
> #6: MPO Celi
> #7: VPO Karajan, BPO Wand
> #8: VPO Boulez/Haitink/Karajan, BPO Wand
> #9: Lucerne Abbado, RCO Haitink, BPO Wand, VPO Giulini
> 
> #5 would be my first choice of the cycle.


Any opinion on the 1978 Stuttgart RSO Celi 4th?


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## Azol

Spy Car said:


> Is this (for reference) the recoding you are referring to by Inbal?
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Symphony-No-4/dp/B00021T5SU
> 
> Bill


Yes, that's the one.


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## Manxfeeder

Azol said:


> Considering multiple editions, you should give B4/Inbal (original version) a good listen, it's almost like a new Bruckner symphony you've never heard before!


I keep forgetting I have that cycle. It used to always come up in Bruckner lists, but it seems to have faded away recently.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern

I think this is top notch quality. Admittedly I don't have many other recordings to compare it to but I think Wand has a really meticulous touch to the subtlety and feel of Bruckner and awesome attention to detail.


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## Azol

For some reason, the later Wand/BPO recordings did not click with me, NDR SO stays my "go to" Wand set.


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## flamencosketches

What are some great recordings of the 5th? I only have one, Barenboim/Berlin Philharmonic, which I really enjoy.

Any thoughts on this one...:










Currently going for quite cheap on Amazon.


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## Granate

I think it is really good, but also, the Testament issue was the first to be released from the original Berlin tapes once stolen by the Soviet army. And that release was still in good price IIRC.




Even if it has a really "wrong" edition (you would notice it in the Scherzo), the intensity of this performance surpasses almost any that I've known. The Karajan BPO is still my favourite for a slower and deep approach (which is similar to this Furtwängler that counts with a plausible edition too).

This single 2002 M&A cd counts with the remaster of the best tape available for this live performance, in extraordinary sound quality. I played it yesterday while I was working out and doing jump rope.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern

This is the 2nd recording of "Die Nullte" that I've heard. This piece is wild and daring, it's so interesting listening to Bruckner getting his bearings and I think it's better than No. 1 and 2 in some regards. I think you could show the opening movement to any metalhead and they could appreciate it. The scherzo also straight up sounds like Shostakovitch it's so freakishly anachronistic.


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## Azol

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> This is the 2nd recording of "Die Nullte" that I've heard. This piece is wild and daring, it's so interesting listening to Bruckner getting his bearings and I think it's better than No. 1 and 2 in some regards. I think you could show the opening movement to any metalhead and they could appreciate it. The scherzo also straight up sounds like Shostakovitch it's so freakishly anachronistic.


Just FYI, the No. 0 "Die Nullte" was composed between the 1 and 2, so it's kinda Symphony No. 1.5.


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## Ravn

#1: Simone Young & Philharmonisches Staatsorchester Hamburg - a very good recording full of fire and fury. I prefer Young in both #0 and #00 as well.
#2: Barenboim & Staatskapelle Berlin - the last timpani crescendo is downright terrifying!
#3: Tennstedt & Symphonieorchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks - in my opinion a near perfect recording, both technically, sonically and interpretation wise. Not much more to say.
#4: Celibidache & Münchner Philharmoniker - in my opinion the best by far. The slow (read "broad") tempo makes the coda an unforgettable experience
#5: Karajan & Berliner Philharmoniker - more or less the same reason as Tennstedt's 3rd. I love the power of the introduction in particular. I've not heard any other recordings of the 5th with the same sound
#6: Karajan & BPO - Karajan wins this one as well. A perfect blend of speed and power (talking about Bruckner makes me sound like Jeremy Clarkson :lol. 
#7: Simon Rattle & City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra - THE best recording of any classical work! I cannot express how much I love this recording, but if I should point out one thing it has to be Rattle's altered timpani part in the adagio. This timpani part* makes the standard part sound off in my mind. This was also the first recording I ever heard of Bruckner.
#8 Celibidache & Münchner Philharmoniker - the broad tempi comes to its right again, making the adagio move mountains and making the finale set fire to the sky
#9 Karajan & BPO - a perfect recording of my favorite symphony. Celibidache/MPO and Bernstein/WPO is not far behind though

* The altered timpani part is enclosed below. Thielemann uses the same part on his recording with BPO. The same effect is partially achieved by Celibidache & Radio-Sinfonieorchester Stuttgart, but that I believe is due to the timpanist playing at twice the tempo of the rest of the orchestra.


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## Brahmsianhorn

Sampled some 8ths this past weekend. Furt '44 and Karajan '88 are my standards and set a very high bar.

I started with Boulez/VPO. I can understand why it appeals to some. The loud brass moments are very impressive. But - stop me if you've heard this from me before - I don't hear the spirit of the work coming through. The great Adagio left me cold. Bruckner is about more than just some exciting moments.

But this was actually a better listening experience than Schuricht/VPO. What a disappointment after all I have heard about his Bruckner. Just way too straight-laced and efficient for this symphony. Did not plumb the depths. I didn't understand the point. For me this is the most monumental symphony in existence alongside Beethoven and Mahler's 9ths. The idea of stream-lining such a brilliant composition makes my skin crawl.

Van Beinum/RCO was much more my cup of tea. Very beautifully eloquent, if not as powerful as Furt/Karajan. Haitink/RCO was a bit comatose by comparison. The Adagio needs life to be effective. I could not find his VPO version online, so I put it on order. They say this is his best.

Ah, but then came Giulini/VPO. Now there is a recording to stand on the pantheon of greats! Powerful, exciting, beautiful - maybe even good enough to give Karajan a run for his money among modern versions. (I don't expect to ever hear a version to compare with Furt '44) I listened to Giulini's live BPO on YouTube and was disappointed. Just did not sound as inspired to me. Maybe I am listening to too many Bruckner 8ths. 

Still plenty more to sample - Celi, Kna, Horenstein, earlier Karajan, Wand, Barbirolli, Klemperer, Bohm, Jochum, Kubelik, Skrow, Maazel, Sinopoli, Tennstedt...did I leave out anyone? I don't want to know! :lol:


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern

Anyone familiar with this recording? I thought it was a big fat piece of doo-doo. No flow to the music, languid tempi, all passion and expression feels stifled. I find this incredibly odd because I otherwise love Wand's recordings, and his recording of the 6th which the Kölner-Rundfunk Sinfonie-Orchester is actually my favorite interpretation I've heard. He really absolutely nails it there IMO.


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## brucknerian1874

Two recommendations for the early symphonies, three for the middle and four for the final triptych, although it could just as easily be 20,30,40...

00 Skrowaczewski, Tintner
0 Schaller, Tintner
1 Tintner, Venzago
2 Bosch, Tintner, 
3 Ballot, Haitink, Karajan
4 Bohm, Karajan, Wand
5 Ballot, Haitink, Karajan
6 Eschenbach, Klemperer, Schaller
7 Karajan, Harnoncourt, Runnicles, Wand
8 Celibidache, Giulini, Karajan, Mehta
9 Abbado, Giulini, Mehta, Schaller (Revised Completion)


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## Azol

brucknerian1874 said:


> Two recommendations for the early symphonies, three for the middle and four for the final triptych, although it could just as easily be 20,30,40...
> 
> 00 Skrowaczewski, Tintner
> 0 Schaller, Tintner
> 1 Tintner, Venzago
> 2 *Chailly*, Tintner,
> 3 *Tintner*, Haitink, Karajan
> 4 Bohm, *Celibidache*, Wand
> 5 Ballot, Haitink, *Wand*
> 6 Eschenbach, Klemperer, Celibidache
> 7 Karajan, *Chailly*, Runnicles, Wand
> 8 Celibidache, Giulini, Karajan, Mehta
> 9 *Rattle* (Completion), Giulini, Mehta, Schaller (Revised Completion)


Slightly amended your list


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## brucknerian1874

Azol said:


> Slightly amended your list


Interesting. However, there's a couple I'll have to defend.

Bosch 2, the highlight of an otherwise meh cycle deserves it's spot. I'll re-listen to Chailly 2 and report back.








Karajan's EMI 4th has a sense of mystery about the opening that no-on else can match and the usual concentration and cohesion elsewhere. It would make the top three in my list of 4ths every time. Don't get me wrong, I do admire Celi's 4th. It's just not in my top three.








Similarly, the Karajan 5th I'm thinking of is not the 'usual' one. It's a live performance with the VPO at the Salzburg Festival and it trumps the one in the BPO box on almost every level. Wand is fine but really not in the same class in terms of the interpretation.








Addado's 9 from Lucerne is special. Schaller's completion (now revised) represents for me the closest we're ever likely to get to an authentic Bruckner vision of the finale. It's hard to listen to any other 'completion' after that. In fact, I'd go so far as to describe the Schaller as a 'realisation' of the finale, it's that good IMHO.


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## Azol

Sadly, I still haven't heard the last Schaller's revision (his boxset contains the previous iteration) so this is on my radar now.
Rattle is (surprisingly) great, I'd venture to say this is the only completion (Samale-Mazzuca-Philips-Cohrs) I can listen to (unless Schaller surprises me as well - his previous attempt wasn't too convincing).


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## brucknerian1874

Azol said:


> Sadly, I still haven't heard the last Schaller's revision (his boxset contains the previous iteration) so this is on my radar now.
> Rattle is (surprisingly) great, I'd venture to say this is the only completion (Samale-Mazzuca-Philips-Cohrs) I can listen to (unless Schaller surprises me as well - his previous attempt wasn't too convincing).


I'm excited for you to hear it. I have all the 'completions' including the Rattle and that was my preferred (4 movement) version for repeated listening until I heard the Schaller Revised. The reason I'm so gung-ho about it is that when I first listened to it I literally forgot that it wasn't pure Bruckner I was listening to; I was totally convinced to the point where nothing mattered but the music.


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## brucknerian1874

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Still plenty more to sample - Celi, Kna, Horenstein, earlier Karajan, Wand, Barbirolli, Klemperer, Bohm, Jochum, Kubelik, Skrow, Maazel, Sinopoli, Tennstedt...did I leave out anyone? I don't want to know! :lol:


I listened to this recently and was pleasantly surprised, even impressed. From reading up on it the box set from which it comes sounds like it has some interesting performances that would be well worth the time investment of any card-carrying Brucknerian.


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## mparta

Sometimes I hear the conductor in Bruckner (a 4th with the Concertbegouw live, Jochum, really on the wing) and sometimes (actually most of the time) I hear the orchestra.
So the von Karajan and Giulini 8ths, I hear the VPO, both great experiences. I heard HvK with the VPO play the 8th at Carnegie. Incredible experience, heightened by the drama of his entrance on walkers, a sort of invalid's trudge to the podium and then... magic. The slow movement, unbelievable. The Cleveland/Welser-Moest is not up to the level of their 5th. I had and listened to the Boulez, there's only orchestra and nothing else and I don't think that works. Not surprised by someone (above) else's praise of a Mehta performance, as I tried to say somewhere else in these threads, he is much underrated.

I hear both the conductor and the orchestra in the Celibidache/Munich performances, and that's the problem. I cannot sign on to his wacky tempi, and most importantly I hear an orchestra that cannot play these pieces at those tempi. It would take Cleveland or Chicago to do that, and they'd probably be stretched. It's unmusical and slow, not just slow. Sorry, tried many times, it's just ridiculous.

And I have a soft spot for the post-war (I think a concert at the UN?) VPO/Schuricht 5. Aggressive sound on DG from that time but it really goes, and I can sit through the whole thing and feel like it was all of a piece. I think the Cleveland/Welser-Moest DVD performance from St. Florian (I think) is really wonderful, but I heard him play it with the VPO and his approach with Vienna was wildly different than what he does in Cleveland. i do not understand it. The live Vienna performance was wild, just possessed. i will never in my life forget the horn statements behind the main theme right at the end, they are often lost in recordings but the Vienna horns that day tattooed that music on my forehead, and W-M encouraged them (which is dangerous with that orchestra, which has a tendency to play LOUD, LOUD, LOUD!)

I love Bruckner but need the time to sit and listen, and time is not easy to find. 

I like the Klemperer 6 and 7.

I can't pull up a 9 that stands out, but I often wonder what the new Pittsburgh recording is like? That's supposed to be a very good orchestra that makes reference level recordings, and Honeck would have this music, I think.


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## Andy Foster

I'd recommend the late Bruno Walter 9. I have it on an early CD re-master, which is fine for me, but I've read good things about the recent Pristine Audio version. Walter's climax in the slow movement /finale is not as tremendous as some, but he works up the tension over four or five minutes - all those repeated notes becoming slowly more tense - so that the effect when you get there is shattering.

Which Karajan 8th are you referring to? 8 was always my blind spot in mature Bruckner. I had the Karajan / Berlin PO recording and it didn't somehow seem to hang together. Then a friend persuaded me to buy the very late Karajan 8 with the Vienna Phil, and I was completely converted. It's been called 'autumnal' and I'm sure that's right. He must have known he hadn't much longer to go. Of course I hadn't heard the wonderful Horenstein on Vox then. If only someone would reintroduce those recordings with up-to-date re-masterings.

Writing about Karajan in Bruckner, can I put in a recommendation for the very last recording he made, of the 7th. It's not the best recorded performance in the normal way - Haitink's first recording for me, every time - but it has a special ethereal quality of its own, as if he were already seeing something beyond.

A question to finish, about the Fifth. In 'The Essence of Bruckner', Robert Simpson refers to a conductor who halves the speed at the great final entrance of the chorale in the finale. Does anyone know who he was referring to?


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## Merl

mparta said:


> I can't pull up a 9 that stands out, but I often wonder what the new Pittsburgh recording is like? That's supposed to be a very good orchestra that makes reference level recordings, and Honeck would have this music, I think.


As far as the Honeck recording is concerned, mparta, GET IT ! Its a powerhouse, superb recording
Even Hurwitz loves it. Recommended without hesitation

https://www.classicstoday.com/review/honecks-remarkable-bruckner-ninth/


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## mparta

Merl said:


> As far as the Honeck recording is concerned, mparta, GET IT ! Its a powerhouse, superb recording
> Even Hurwitz loves it. Recommended without hesitation
> 
> https://www.classicstoday.com/review/honecks-remarkable-bruckner-ninth/


My local shop which has very limited stock does have one, I'll think about that. Someone also mentioned the Walter and I have that Pristine (I think) that comes with a Till Eulenspiegel. It slipped my mind as I don't go to the 9th very often but yes, Walter very good.

I have the dvd of HvKs 8 and 9 and never make it past the 8th, guess the easy solution some day would be to start with 9 lol

The HvK 8 to which I am referring is the VPO, that was at the end of his life, as I mentioned, he was crippled badly at that performance, sat to conduct and it took him foreeever to get back and forth to the podium, which added poignancy, and the slow movement was deeper than deep. I don't want to say heavenly, that seems like a light word. Those remarkable harmonic sequences with the harps.... oh my. 






It makes me think of a very stupid thing I read about an interaction between Leonard Slatkin and Erich Leinsdorf in which Slatkin said he didn't get the other-worldly quality of Bruckner and so didn't conduct it. To which Leinsdorf, who must be an idiot if the story is true, replied "do you see the words -the heavens open- in the score?" if you don't see that in the score, you certainly shouldn't conduct Bruckner.


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## Heck148

mparta said:


> It makes me think of a very stupid thing I read about an interaction between Leonard Slatkin and Erich Leinsdorf in which Slatkin said he didn't get the other-worldly quality of Bruckner and so didn't conduct it. To which Leinsdorf, who must be an idiot if the story is true, replied "do you see the words -the heavens open- in the score?" if you don't see that in the score, you certainly shouldn't conduct Bruckner.


No mystery, really - Leinsdorf was an idiot!!


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## brucknerian1874

Andy Foster said:


> A question to finish, about the Fifth. In 'The Essence of Bruckner', Robert Simpson refers to a conductor who halves the speed at the great final entrance of the chorale in the finale. Does anyone know who he was referring to?


I seem to recall that being said of Eugen Jochum in particular, however many conductors go in for an 'artificial' slowing in much the same way as they do for the big tune in the finale of Brahms 1.

BTW I'm not wholly convinced that is the best way to go. For once I'm on the same page as Hurwitz; one of my all time favourite 5ths (I have over 30 at the last count) is the Harnoncourt VPO and there is no 'dramatic' slowing for the chorale.

Speaking of Jochum, the 5th was THE Bruckner symphony for him. For my money his Dresden 5th is the best of the bunch.


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## GraemeG

I think many of Simpson's conductors' barbs in _Essence_ were aimed at Jochum. There was another instance early in the finale of 6 as well; speeding up in this case, which makes the music sound trite. I have an old CD box of Jochum's DG cycle including an essay by him where he more-or-less says that 6 is over after the Adagio. I really only keep the box for 1 & 2 as an adjunct to Celibidache for my Bruckner.


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## Andy Foster

Ah, thank you (and others) for that about Simpson and Jochum. I did suspect that was the target but didn't know.

I rather treasure that old CD box for the wonderful 1958 recording of 5 wiith the Bavarian RSO. I don't think Jochum's idea of a "point of culmination" means that everything after it is over. Indeed when he talks about 7 he's very clear that it does not. It's a very German philosophical idea that there must be one such moment in a symphony, though he's right that the great climax of 5 comes right at the end, and that the deepest moments of 7 are in the slow movement. Jochum's attitude to Bruckner was odd, as his views on editions show. But it is a wonderful 5. The later Dresden cycle I've found slightly disappointing.

I don't want to get into the arguments about Ceilibidache. He's interesting (except in 8 where he falls asleep) but he can't be a first choice for me, for obvious reasons.


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## joen_cph

I always pop in to repeat than Celibidache's Bruckner varies a lot, between say the DG and the HMV recordings, and in the individual symphonies. The DG recordings tend to be speedier, and with more flexible tempi, but some HMV have rather quick, 'normal' tempi (the 6th).


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## dieter

Heck148 said:


> No mystery, really - Leinsdorf was an idiot!!


Nein, he vass not ein idiot. Zanking you very much. In fact, my respect for Leinsdorf is even higher now.


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## dieter

The Nazis played Bruckner when they finally admitted they'd lost the war. It is probably as relevant as your point number 3. A very long bow, my friend. Methinks it might be very sane to not associate Wagner or Bruckner with the Nazis. Both of them died in the 19th century, they had nothing to do with it. P.l.e.a.s.e.


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## Heck148

dieter said:


> Nein, he vass not ein idiot. Zanking you very much. In fact, my respect for Leinsdorf is even higher now.


Leinsdorf noted among orchestra musicians as a "dead stick"....journeyman level conductor....ok guest conductor, had a large repertoire
...


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## Aries

Pestouille said:


> I would be interested to have various proposals concerning the best recordings for one or more or all symphon(ies). Could you motivate the choice made, this could lead to interesting debates. But please do not say this symphony is better than another... or Bruckner symphony is too long. The real question being: What makes your choice the best one?


I have mostly not a single favorite recording per symphony, but several that shine at different locations.

Lets talk about 4 symphonies: The 00th, 3rd, 4th and 9th.

00th Symphony

I have a problems with most recordings of the 00, and it because of the complete opposite of what some people are telling about this symphony, that it should not be played as heavy and broad like Bruckners late symphonies. But I think that is completely wrong. Play this symphony heavy and broad, and it is a full fledged symphony. *Gennadi Rozhdestvensky* did it. He needs 52 minutes for the symphony. Hear the end of the first and forth movement for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uX4a44Xf6jk#t=17m36s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uX4a44Xf6jk#t=50m07s

3rd symphony

One of the great moments in the 1873 and 1874 version of the symphony is the climax of the second theme in the recapitulation of the first movement. It is important that the brass can be heard clearly in this passage fluted by power. Again Gennadi Rozhdestvensky shows it:






In the coda of the first movement of the 1873 and 1874 versions there is a passionate melody in the violins, that is often not heard as good as the brass. *François-Xavier Roth* emphasizes this melody more:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnyPapp1u9I#t=23m44s

4. In the later versions of the symphony there are descending tones in the bassoon and later the low brass at the beginning of the coda of the first movement. They have a great effect if played heavy. *Karl Böhm* accentuates them the most:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GK8yYKF_NqY#t=20m07s

4th symphony

One of my favorite passages in Bruckners music is the recapitulation of first theme in the 1874 version of the first movement of his forth symphony. The dreamy melody in the violins is longer and more accentuated than in the later versions and the climax is more creative. *Kurt Wöss* takes this passage most beautifully:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Asv1dk4hzoc#t=12m59s

*Michael Gielen* takes the climax also very well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b98EcpD_Dmo#t=11m45s

9th symphony:

In the coda of the first movement the horns and trumpets alternate in playing the opening theme. This should be emphasized. It also has a great effect if the music slows down before the upcoming last climax of the movement. Ferdinand Löwe had some good ideas to promote this romantic playstyle. *Josef Krips* interprets this passage very well:






*Kurt Eichhorn* takes the climax of the adagio in the most brutal and best way:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sy_Qukgn0Rc#t=20m00s

Eichhorn also chooses a slow tempo for the Finale what is the way to go to show the greatness of this movement.

Here the great choral theme shrouded in legends:






And the fugue:


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## flamencosketches

I would love to know what are some good Bruckner 9th recordings to check out. I have two that I really like: Daniel Barenboim/Berlin Philharmonic & Georg Tintner/Royal Scottish National Orchestra, but I want to hear more of this great symphony.


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## mparta

flamencosketches said:


> I would love to know what are some good Bruckner 9th recordings to check out. I have two that I really like: Daniel Barenboim/Berlin Philharmonic & Georg Tintner/Royal Scottish National Orchestra, but I want to hear more of this great symphony.


Old but very fine, Bruno Walter and the NYPO.


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## Agamenon

My fave recording ever: Bruckner 9, Giulini. VPO. DG. 

After this, to die! :angel:


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## Heck148

flamencosketches said:


> I would love to know what are some good Bruckner 9th recordings to check out. I have two that I really like: Daniel Barenboim/Berlin Philharmonic & Georg Tintner/Royal Scottish National Orchestra, but I want to hear more of this great symphony.


Solti/CSO is my overall favorite
Barenboim/CSO is excellent as well
Walter/ColSO - my first exposure to the work....still stacks up well...


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## joen_cph

flamencosketches said:


> I would love to know what are some good Bruckner 9th recordings to check out. I have two that I really like: Daniel Barenboim/Berlin Philharmonic & Georg Tintner/Royal Scottish National Orchestra, but I want to hear more of this great symphony.


As regards performances providing ample contrasts with those (obviously, your Barenboim is the Teldec/Warner one):

Jochum/DG, 
Furtwaengler 1944, 
Rattle, the completed version (EMI/Warner).

Haitink/CtGeb is also impressive.

I'll relisten to Abendroth now, also a creative conductor. One of the fastest Scherzi around, for example, at 8:58. Historical sound, however.


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## Ned Low

flamencosketches said:


> I would love to know what are some good Bruckner 9th recordings to check out. I have two that I really like: Daniel Barenboim/Berlin Philharmonic & Georg Tintner/Royal Scottish National Orchestra, but I want to hear more of this great symphony.


Solti, Mehta, Wildner for the completed version of the symphony, Barenboim( CSO)


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## flamencosketches

Ned Low said:


> Solti, Mehta, Wildner for the completed version of the symphony, Barenboim( CSO)


I didn't know Barenboim ever conducted the completed 9th. I'll have to check that out.


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## Ned Low

No a misunderstanding here. Johannes Wildner has recorded the completed 9th not Barenboim. ( i apologise if I didn't make myself clear in the previous post)


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## joen_cph

Of course, there are several completions of the Finale.

Here's some stuff about the Wildner recording
https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-9753/

( "... _However, recent research (...) some discovered as recently as 1990, indicates that Bruckner did indeed finish the finale, at least in draft form. In fact, even the movement's final 24-bar cadence has been found, allowing for a full-scale reconstruction_.")


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## Brahmsianhorn

Top 9ths for me:

Giulini/VPO
Wand/BPO
Furtwängler/BPO


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## flamencosketches

Ned Low said:


> No a misunderstanding here. Johannes Wildner has recorded the completed 9th not Barenboim. ( i apologise if I didn't make myself clear in the previous post)
> View attachment 151130


Ah, my bad. I must have seen a semicolon that wasn't there after Wildner. Looks cool, I'll have to check it out. I have the Tintner 9th on Naxos and it's excellent.


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## Brahmsianhorn

How about your 10 favorite Bruckner recordings?

1. 8 - Furtwängler/VPO
2. 9 - Giulini/VPO
3. 5 - Haitink/BRSO
4. 7 - Furtwängler/BPO (Rome)
5. 9 - Wand/BPO
6. 5 - Jochum/RCO ‘64
7. 4 - Furtwängler/VPO (Munich)
8. 5 - Jochum/RCO ‘86
9. 6 - Karajan/BPO
10. 4 - Böhm/VPO

.


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## vincula

I keep revisiting Stan's no.1









I didn't use to play attention to this symphony before. I do now. So I bought the record. I think the sound he gets out of the lesser-known Saarbrücken RSO places it up there with the big boys. The brass seems especially tuneful and there's a beauty of timbre that grabs you from the very beginning. Huge dynamic range and beautifully crafted phrases. There's poise when needed too. It sound just so coherent and "natural". A class act!

Regards,

Vincula


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## HenryPenfold

flamencosketches said:


> I would love to know what are some good Bruckner 9th recordings to check out. I have two that I really like: Daniel Barenboim/Berlin Philharmonic & Georg Tintner/Royal Scottish National Orchestra, but I want to hear more of this great symphony.


Karajan, BPO DG 1966


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## bluto32

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Top 9ths for me:
> 
> Giulini/VPO
> Wand/BPO
> Furtwängler/BPO


I'm probably going to splash out on Giulini's 9th having sampled it on YouTube and heard so, so many great things about it. What's the sound like on the Furtwangler, and which issues have the best remastering? (I think he only recorded it once, and that was in 1944 with the BPO?) I have his 1944 B8 with the VPO on the "Musical Concepts" label which has relatively very good sound for such an old recording. How does his B9 compare with this in terms of (i) sound and (ii) quality of performance?


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## vincula

bluto32 said:


> I'm probably going to splash out on Giulini's 9th having sampled it on YouTube and heard so, so many great things about it. What's the sound like on the Furtwangler, and which issues have the best remastering? (I think he only recorded it once, and that was in 1944 with the BPO?) I have his 1944 B8 with the VPO on the "Musical Concepts" label which has relatively very good sound for such an old recording. How does his B9 compare with this in terms of (i) sound and (ii) quality of performance?


I think the Guilini VPO live concert on DG's worth every penny. Regarding Furtwängler, purchasing a physical album might turn tricky. You'll find a good-sounding B9 BPO '44 on YouTube.






Not sure this one sounds better, despite its price tag:

https://www.pristineclassical.com/products/pasc251

Regards,

Vincula


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## Brahmsianhorn

bluto32 said:


> I'm probably going to splash out on Giulini's 9th having sampled it on YouTube and heard so, so many great things about it. What's the sound like on the Furtwangler, and which issues have the best remastering? (I think he only recorded it once, and that was in 1944 with the BPO?) I have his 1944 B8 with the VPO on the "Musical Concepts" label which has relatively very good sound for such an old recording. How does his B9 compare with this in terms of (i) sound and (ii) quality of performance?


The sound on the Furtwangler 1944 BPO 9th is not as clear as the VPO 8th from 10 days later. In terms of performance there is a similar intensity. For me the performance of the 9th does not quite hit the mark as well as the 8th, which is my favorite Bruckner recording. Interestingly, he performed the 9th three days before this recording at the St Florian Monastery, and this is rumored to have been one of his favorite performances. Could it have been that different from the one preserved? With Furtwangler, performances could widely differ from one day to the next. My feeling about his 9th is that it is one of the most intense ever recorded and contains inimitable insights in phrasing, as well as great nobility in the quieter sections. I didn't feel, however, that the spiritual elements of the work came through as strongly as with the VPO 8th. There is a bit of more edginess to the 9th, as if he wasn't completely comfortable and "in the zone." But that's just my opinion. The only two 9ths I prefer to the Furtwangler are Giulini/VPO and Wand/BPO, both of which are more relaxed and expansive, and bringing that spiritual element home.

I only know the DG and Music & Arts issues of Furtwangler's 9th, but I've heard that Praga may be the best transfer:


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## bluto32

Thank you both for your replies. I agree that the Furtwangler doesn't sound as good as his B8, although that YouTube remastering is quite decent. Regarding Wand's B9 with the BPO - how does it compare to his Lubeck recording in 1988 with the NDR? (I've heard very good things about the B8 from 1987 in the same venue.) I don't have any Wand at all yet am and considering the Lubeck twofer from Sony Japan.


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## bluto32

P.S. I've just seen Brahmsianhorn's and DeepR's comments on the Lubeck B9 in the "Bruckner, Symphony No. 9 - Best Recordings" thread. I should have searched a bit more thoroughly before posting above!


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## Brahmsianhorn

I have both Wand’s 8 & 9 from Lubeck and with the BPO, and they’re all great. If forced to choose, I’d go with the BPO for the superb opulence and tonal expressiveness as well as a more deeply reflective interpretation. The Lubeck recordings have more of a hushed intensity. The cathedral acoustic has a special aura about it though not as full as the later BPO.


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## DarkAngel

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I have both* Wand's 8 & 9 from Lubeck *and with the BPO, and they're all great. If forced to choose, I'd go with the BPO for the superb opulence and tonal expressiveness as well as a more deeply reflective interpretation. The Lubeck recordings have more of a hushed intensity. The cathedral acoustic has a special aura about it though not as full as the later BPO.


Both of the Lubeck performances are available on a special 2CD set, on a recent relisten I had forgotten how much echo and reverb is present in the large undampened space which unfortunately noticeably blurs the sound in spots, otherwise valuable addition for Wand collectors.........


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## Sgfnorth

I couldn’t (and don’t need to) say which is best - it would be very odd to claim to know that and unless i had heard them all how do I know which is best? I don’t even have a favourite amongst the Karajan’s studio 8ths! I will however pick out some interesting ones:

No 1 - Abbado VPO - though Oramo conducts this work very well
No 2 - Stan S. - Oehms
No 3 - Sinopoli DG
No 4 - terrible symphony - don’t bother
No 5 - Celibadache Berlin Phil - DVD
No 6 - BBCPO/Juanjo Mena - Proms - on YouTube
No 7 - Jochum, 1952
No 8 - Boulez
No 9 - Currentzis (if it’s still on YouTube)


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## 89Koechel

INCISIVE comments, Brahmsianhorn, and thanks for them! ... esp. about what WF and his Berlin Phil members could achieve, back in 1944. I still have a WF reissue, from the Furtwangler Society, itself - SWF 041 - of the Bruckner 9th, alone. The sound is probably that is the best that could be achieved, even considering a limited edition of the sort, that you have, in an earlier post. Obviously, with FURTWANGLER and those reissues, of ANY type, we're working with a source material that has certain limitations, sonically, and even in the basic interpretations, themselves. Almost no one would suggest that WF was the "ne plus ultra" in every of his, many interpretations, even in Mr. Bruckner. Geez, I even regard some of the Jascha Horenstein interpretations, of certain Symphonies, as truly VALUABLE ... and anyone can name their, own favorites ... of the roster of "virtual unknowns", so to speak, in Bruckner and else wise. Anyway, thanks again, and all the best!


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## 89Koechel

Thanks, vincula!! ... and good luck to Flamenco Sketches and bluto ... in trying to find the BEST Bruckner 9th ... with or w/o the attempts at completing that LAST movement - eh?


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## Kiki

Sgfnorth said:


> ...
> No 8 - Boulez
> No 9 - Currentzis (if it's still on YouTube)


Interesting pick of Currentzis' 9th. I think the first movement is surprisingly expansive and the scherzo remarkably safe by his high standard, though very good as they are; while the slow movement is a lot more interesting because of its disturbing undercurrents; but the most eye-opening thing is playing Ligeti's Lontano immediately after the slow movement (as a finale?), which stimulates imagination. Conservatives might frown, critics might have things to write, but the audience obviously loved it.

The whole concert is available on SWR's website: https://www.swr.de/swrclassic/symph...rigiert-Bruckners-9,aexavarticle-swr-148.html

BTW, I think the Boulez 8th on DG is wonderful.


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## GraemeG

Sgfnorth said:


> No 5 - Celibadache Berlin Phil - DVD


Er, not sure this exists? Celi does conduct the BPO on DVD in the 7th...


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## Sgfnorth

Rattle’s is as good as any of them get.


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## Sgfnorth

Sorry, misremembered - Munich Phil - the one where he sings the brass lines to reinforced the finale lol


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## Bruckner Anton

A great thread. Here is my list (3 recommendations each, weighing both interpretation and sound quality):
1-3. no preference
4. Wand BPO RCA; Bohm VPO Decca; Celi MPO EMI
5. Celi MPO EMI; Karajan BPO DG; Jochum RCO Philips
6. Karajan BPO DG; Celi MPO EMI; Klemperer PO EMI
7. Giulini VPO DG; Haitink RCO 1978 Philips; Karajan VPO DG
8. Beinum RCO Philips (Mono); Giulini VPO DG; Wand BPO RCA
9. Giulini VPO DG; Barenboim BPO Warner; Haitink RCO 1981 Philips


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## pianozach

Just did my first active listening to *Bruckner's 4th (Wand)*. I've had the various movements come up on random play, but I simply never bothered to really pay attention

Did he compose this during _*Oktoberfest*_? 'Cause it seems like some sort of inside joke. Sort of like an homage to *Wellington's Victory* or something.

It's a recording of *Wand* with the *Cologne Radio Symphony Orchestra*


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## dko22

00-4 Tintner. Simple enough as he performs the original versions which in almost every case are far better than the revisions (perhaps not the finale of 4). He also happens to be a fine Brucknerian throughout the cycle

5 I'm not sure if any performance has it all though I still like Kempe which was my first acquisition. I probably haven't heard enough.
6 Celibidache and Jochum Dresden. Celi can be a bore but not here.
7 probably Sanderling. Until I heard that, I was even a bit lukewarm about the symphony compared to the likes of 5,6 and 9 for instance. 
Wand is particularly good with no. 8. Stunning live.
Too much choice with 9, mainly because it's hard to completely misinterpret it. Still Giulini might shade it.


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## Brahmsianhorn

Bruckner Anton said:


> A great thread. Here is my list (3 recommendations each, weighing both interpretation and sound quality):
> 1-3. no preference
> 4. Wand BPO RCA; Bohm VPO Decca; Celi MPO EMI
> 5. Celi MPO EMI; Karajan BPO DG; Jochum RCO Philips
> 6. Karajan BPO DG; Celi MPO EMI; Klemperer PO EMI
> 7. Giulini VPO DG; Haitink RCO 1978 Philips; Karajan VPO DG
> 8. Beinum RCO Philips (Mono); Giulini VPO DG; Wand BPO RCA
> 9. Giulini VPO DG; Barenboim BPO Warner; Haitink RCO 1981 Philips


That's not too far from my list:

3. Böhm/VPO, Knappertsbusch/VPO, Haitink/VPO, Schuricht/VPO

4. Furtwängler/VPO (10/29/51), Böhm/VPO, Jochum/BPO, Klemperer/BRSO, Celibidache/MPO, Wand/BPO, Karajan/BPO (EMI), Skrowaczewski/Hallé

5. Haitink/BRSO, Jochum/RCO (1965), Jochum/RCO (1986), Furtwängler/BPO, Horenstein/BBC, Barenboim/BPO, Wand/BPO

6. Karajan/BPO, Klemperer/New Philh., Jochum/BRSO, Haitink/Staatskapelle Dresden, Celibidache/MPO

7. Furtwängler/BPO (Rome) (5/1/1951), Karajan/BPO (DG), Karajan/BPO (EMI), Haitink/RCO (1978), Böhm/VPO, Van Beinum/RCO (1947), Chailly/RSO Berlin

8. Furtwängler/VPO (1944), Furtwängler/VPO (1954), Wand/BPO, Wand/NDR (Lübeck) (1987), Karajan/BPO (1975), Giulini/VPO, Böhm/VPO, Karajan/VPO, Haitink/VPO, Horenstein/LSO, Van Beinum/RCO, Boulez/VPO

9. Giulini/VPO, Wand/BPO, Furtwängler/BPO, Wand/NDR (Lübeck) (1988), Karajan/BPO, Knappertsbusch/BPO, Barenboim/BPO, Jochum/Staatskapelle Dresden, Haitink/RCO (1981), Walter/Columbia, Van Beinum/RCO, Honeck/Pittsburgh

.


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## Kreisler jr

00-2 do not care enough about to have heard larger number of recordings
3 Schuricht/VPO (most common version, don't know the earlier versions well enough to compare)
4 Klemperer/Philharmonia
5 Gielen/SWF, Skrowaczewski/Saarbrücken
6 Celibidache/Munich, Klemperer/Philharmonia
7 Rosbaud, Gielen, Skrowaczewski/Saarbrücken, Klemperer
8 Giulini/VPO
9 Giulini/VPO, Schuricht/VPO, (Rattle/BPO for completed)


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## Granate

After re-reading for pleasure this thread, I'm relieved to find many Celibidache fans dismissing the slow No.9 Scherzo from the EMI recordings. I am with you too. I haven't still found a proper replacement for that recording, if any, the Wand Lübeck.










I'm now listening to almost all my Bruckner CDs in my collection, and also ordering and getting others. Today was the Barenboim Berlin cycle which has a couple of my favourite recordings but who knows how my opinion could change.










I'm playing right now my Simone Young cycle and for the first time the Official Knappertsbusch Bruckner recordings (Decca, Westminster, the Salzburg 7th in Orfeo) I'm doing a Celibidache Bruckner Marathon soon and of course, soon the Barenboim Chicago and Berlin cycles on CD.










I should then have an updated opinion of the works. And You'll find that I'm snubbing Karajan Berlin out of it because there's no sale for his remastered cycle!

So far, the ones I'm sure that will be featured.

00-0: Simone Young, Philharmoniker Hamburg
01: Eugen Jochum, Berliner Philharmoniker
02: Eugen Jochum, Staatskapelle Dresden
07: Eugen Jochum, Staatskapelle Dresden


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## Azol

Granate said:


> After re-reading for pleasure this thread, I'm relieved to find many Celibidache fans dismissing the slow No.9 Scherzo from the EMI recordings. I am with you too


Never could understand the "it's working in the context of the outer movements" notion. No it doesn't. Plodding is plodding, while this Scherzo should be menacing and brutal. The only weak point in the whole boxset, the reason why I rarely pull out the Ninth out of it. Fourth, Sixth, Eighth are in a non-stop rotation for me.

Bruckner works in contrasts too - I mentioned I love Scherzo of the First Symphony played blazingly fast, for instance. Check Paavo Jarvi, he's good.


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## savae

Favorites Stereo


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## savae

Favorites MONO


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## Heck148

I've finally started to connect with Bruckner #5....it's taken a long time!!
Tried many different versions....it's just so sprawly, episodic, disconnected....esp, the Finale, which has always seemed very episodic, disconnected...
I can't say I'm crazy about mvts 1-3 [yet], but the finale has arrived - it has been Solti/CSO that's done the trick for me - great playing!! and Solti connects it quite well....there are still breaks, disconnects, but Solti keeps it moving, and builds powerfully to the climactic conclusion....amazing sound from the orchestra!! wow!!....


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## brucknerian

Recently discovered the Asahina / Osaka Philharmonic 1975 recording live at St. Florian. It is truly exceptional. Two moments especially stand out:

1) the ending of the first movement in which the magnificently warm Wagner-tuba notes really stand out (which are almost inaudible in most performances) and

2) a brief moment between the 2nd and 3rd movements where the whole orchestra pauses so you can here the bells of the Sankt Florian cathedral chime. Magical!


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## ScottK

Heck148 said:


> I've finally started to connect with Bruckner #5....it's taken a long time!!
> Tried many different versions....it's just so sprawly, episodic, disconnected....esp, the Finale, which has always seemed very episodic, disconnected...
> I can't say I'm crazy about mvts 1-3 [yet], but the finale has arrived - it has been Solti/CSO that's done the trick for me - great playing!! and Solti connects it quite well....there are still breaks, disconnects, but Solti keeps it moving, and builds powerfully to the climactic conclusion....amazing sound from the orchestra!! wow!!....


So Heck, you are my opening into this thread which I believe I am going to love! Years ago I went to hear the Yale Philharmonia play Bruckner 5. Looked forward to it a lot because I wanted to experience at least one major symphony for the first time live, the way people had to for so long . I was already a big Bruckner fan. Big miss! I blamed it on the Yale Phil, which had not yet taken the steps forward they were about to, as being simply overmatched. I found it big and formless with one gorgeous melody sitting in the middle. I bought Von Dohnanyi's recording somewhere along the line and came around a little but it really comes off the shelf .... Possibly the least! Sounds like Solti helps but to a point. Can't tell if what sounds like a natural tendency towards enthusiasm on your part isn't stepping forward after so many misses. You liked....the final movement....not without reservations!

PS I didn't go away empty because I got my first listen to Schubert 5!!! Not too shabby a consolation prize!!!


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## Heck148

ScottK said:


> .......... Sounds like Solti helps but to a point. Can't tell if what sounds like a natural tendency towards enthusiasm on your part isn't stepping forward after so many misses. You liked....the final movement....not without reservations!


I doubt that B5 will ever become my favorite Bruckner Symphony, but I've started to like it a bit more....I really had quite a number of "misses".....the finale is quite the spectacular, but, it is episodic and a bit disjointed....The whole work is like Anton at his most expansive form-wise....


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## DeepR

I can't get into other recordings anymore after becoming used to the following live recordings by Wand / NDR orchestra....

The 9th here was recently uploaded again by NDR's own Youtube channel. 
Despite the church acoustics, it works for me, it actually fits the music.

I have tried, but there's nothing that pleases me as much as these. Especially NOT Celibidache, what a joke...
I also can't possibly imagine any recording of the finale of the 5th better than this one.

5: 



8: 



9: 




Or how about that coda of the first movement of the 9th?


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## DeepR

Heck148 said:


> I've finally started to connect with Bruckner #5....it's taken a long time!!
> Tried many different versions....it's just so sprawly, episodic, disconnected....esp, the Finale, which has always seemed very episodic, disconnected...
> I can't say I'm crazy about mvts 1-3 [yet], but the finale has arrived - it has been Solti/CSO that's done the trick for me - great playing!! and Solti connects it quite well....there are still breaks, disconnects, but Solti keeps it moving, and builds powerfully to the climactic conclusion....amazing sound from the orchestra!! wow!!....


Great! I recommend Wand/NDR as posted above.
Just listened to Solti/CSO, it's a fine effort but not as great as Wand. Wand lets the music breathe more. I think Wand's tempi are just right.


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## HenryPenfold

nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnno


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## HenryPenfold

dunno boss goin on here


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## HenryPenfold

Years ago, I never realised that one day I'd consider Bruckner 5 as one of Bruckner's greatest utterances. I do now, as do many others ......

Current faves:

Karajan BPO 1970s (DG)
Sinopoli Dresden (DG)
Jochum Concertgebouw 1986 Live (Tahra)


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## Heck148

DeepR said:


> Great! I recommend Wand/NDR as posted above.
> Just listened to Solti/CSO, it's a fine effort but not as great as Wand. Wand lets the music breathe more. I think Wand's tempi are just right.


I've heard several Wand Bruckner recordings...no thanx....one problem was his orchestra(s)...i remember one in which the brass ensemble was terrible - a 2nd trombone sticking out like a sore thumb, constantly overblowing the first....that got old in a hurry....
For Bruckner, i need first class brass ensemble - Chicago, ViennaPO (under the right conductor); i like LeningradPO too, the Russian flavor takes some getting used to....
My favorite Bruckner conductors are non-Teutonic (Walter excepted) - Solti, Matacic, Barenboim, Mravinsky.


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## Brahmsianhorn

Wand’s Bruckner is great, especially the 5th, 8th, and 9th. He really gives them the space they need for the full impact to come across.


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## vincula

Heck148 said:


> I've heard several Wand Bruckner recordings...no thanx....one problem was his orchestra(s)...i remember one in which the brass ensemble was terrible - a 2nd trombone sticking out like a sore thumb, constantly overblowing the first....that got old in a hurry....
> For Bruckner, i need first class brass ensemble - Chicago, ViennaPO (under the right conductor); i like LeningradPO too, the Russian flavor takes some getting used to....
> My favorite Bruckner conductors are non-Teutonic (Walter excepted) - Solti, Matacic, Barenboim, Mravinsky.


Try Wand's recordings with the Berliner Philharmoniker instead of the NDR and let us know what you think.

Regards,

Vincula


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## Aries

DeepR said:


> 9:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or how about that coda of the first movement of the 9th?


The sound of the orchestra is good and powerful but this seems to have a drawback. The fine-tuning of the balance of the instruments is impaired at this power level. The melody of the horns No. 3,4,7 and 8 is indistinct. The coda is supposed to be a conversation between these horns and the trumpets. The stomping of all the other instruments is not the most important thing.

Also why isn't there more emphasis on the return of the main theme in bar 563 four bars before the end? A ritardando in the bar before would help a lot. But Wand conducts punctual like a clock work.


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## Heck148

Aries said:


> ....The fine-tuning of the balance of the instruments is impaired at this power level. The melody of the horns No. 3,4,7 and 8 is indistinct. The coda is supposed to be a conversation between these horns and the trumpets. The stomping of all the other instruments is not the most important thing.
> Also why isn't there more emphasis on the return of the main theme in bar 563 four bars before the end? A ritardando in the bar before would help a lot. But Wand conducts punctual like a clock work.


Good listening!! there are quite a number of issues with this one....


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## Ned Low

HenryPenfold said:


> Years ago, I never realised that one day I'd consider Bruckner 5 as one of Bruckner's greatest utterances. I do now, as do many others ......
> 
> Current faves:
> 
> Karajan BPO 1970s (DG)
> Sinopoli Dresden (DG)
> Jochum Concertgebouw 1986 Live (Tahra)


Bruckner's 5th resonated with after a couple of recordings. It was Wand with NDR. What a work... the adagio is so touching.


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## ansfelden

Being a Bruckner addict, this is what i want to do sometime but don't know how yet.

All the different editions makes it a life task i guess... 

Maybe i could begin with the classic fourth as an "easy" starter.


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## ClassicalPower

Maybe this thread is not about this but maybe someone can help me, otherwise I could open another one. So, I've discovered Brucker recently and felt in love with his 4th (in particular the original version from 1874), but I found a bit strange and odd the successive symphonies (excluding 7 and 8 which I didn't hear to yet). Which order would you suggest to follow for a beginner if you had to listen to all Brucker's symphonies and "appreciate" them the most? (Chronological one? Or maybe not?)


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## Heck148

I don't think it matters too much....I love Bruckner - I started with 7, then 4, then 3,9,8 all kind of together....3-9 are the main events for me...check them all out...


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## Aries

ClassicalPower said:


> Which order would you suggest to follow for a beginner if you had to listen to all Brucker's symphonies and "appreciate" them the most? (Chronological one? Or maybe not?)


My order was: 4-8-5-6-3-9-2-7-1-00-0 I liked the 4th and 8th very quickly but found the 5th strange for some weeks. - Maybe the one symphony worth delaying. The rest depends on what you want to hear. I wouldn't do it chronologically, because the early symphonies are not representative.


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## Brahmsianhorn

4 - 7 - 8 - 9 - 5 - 6 - 3

This would be my suggested order. 4 and 7 are the easiest to like first. 8, 9, 5 are denser, more epic. 6 and 3 are somewhat lesser works better for after you’ve learned to appreciate Bruckner.


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## Aries

Brahmsianhorn said:


> 6 and 3 are somewhat lesser works better for after you've learned to appreciate Bruckner.


Seems like polls show similar evaluations. A preference for the late symphonies is common. For example this poll has the last 3 symphonies in the first three places: Favorite Bruckner Symphonies

But I have to say, I can't agree on this low ranking of the 3rd. Compare the first movement of the 3rd with the very ceremonial first of the 9th. The first movement of the 3rd is very harsh, edgy and straight forward but also very lively and rich. The ninth has more the aura of importance and maybe more perfection here and there, but is its viscosity really the better solution?


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## Brahmsianhorn

Definitely 8 and 9 are my favorites, so I agree with the poll. They are sort of akin to Beethoven 3 and 9. Ambitious and great.

Bruckner 4 and 7 are more akin to Beethoven 5 and 7. Not as epic but easier to absorb.

Bruckner 5 occupies a strange place, similar to where Mahler 7 stands in my book. Both are difficult to absorb but ultimately prove very rewarding over time.


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## Kreisler jr

The 5th seems clearly the most ambitious but for the 8th (and probably 9th) but somewhat different from the others with the slow intro Bruckner never uses elsewhere, the scherzo beginning with a sped up motive from the slow movement and the finale being in some ways more monumental than even the 8th. 
I think it was the first I bought myself on CD (Wand/WDR), I had probably heard the 4th and maybe another one. 
I used to like it a lot and I still find it fascinating but nowadays I rarely listen to Bruckner (too long, too overwrought).


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## damian101

3 -> Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra, Rafael Kubelik
6 -> Chicago Symphony Orchestra, Sir Georg Solti
7 -> Frankfurt Radio Symphony Orchestra, Paavo Järvi
8 -> New York Philharmonic, Alan Gilbert
9 -> Aarhus Symphony Orchestra, John Gibbons


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