# Some works of mine - "amateur compositions"



## Igneous01

After a lot of debate and thought, i decided it might be a good idea to post some of the things ive written for good criticism and feedback.

some background about me:

Ive been producing for about 5 years now, I started with electronic music and making tracks with your typical 4/4 beat and basic chord progressions. But after some years I started getting more and more complicated - too much it seems for the edm industry. So after finally switching gears into compositions, where things are more free flowing, I began to listen to and study classical music by myself, I think baroque music influenced me the most. I just really enjoy listening to Handel, Bach, and Vivaldi, and Schubert and Beethoven from the classical era as well as Tchaikovsky.

I studied very basic theory when i was a kid playing in a band, but not much after that. Not exactly easy getting this knowledge from schools where I live (london canada) as there very elitist in ways.

So heres what ive been working on and is finished for the most part (there all mostly work in progress)


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https://soundcloud.com/sapphire-1%2Fatmospheric-movement

this was supposed to be the 2nd movement to a suite i was working on but havent gotten back to it since. Its supposed to provoke a sense of peace and enlightenment if you will, or atleast a feeling of being under a trance (go figure).


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https://soundcloud.com/sapphire-1%2Fremember-my-love-that-was-lost

I was writing this while thinking of being in Japan under a sakura tree telling a loved one I cant see them anymore. I guess it has more a film kind of feel to it then really an orchestration.


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https://soundcloud.com/sapphire-1%2Fpiano-1

just something i wrote for piano, i guess you could say the moonlight sonata influenced me on this one.


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https://soundcloud.com/sapphire-1%2Fpiano-2

Wrote this while thinking of the relationship between my brother and his wife, always furious arguments and times when the relationship seems over, they somehow reconnect again.


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https://soundcloud.com/sapphire-1%2Fviolin-concerto-1

concerto for violin that I actually finished. its in 3 movements - Moderato - Larghetto - Moderato


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https://soundcloud.com/sapphire-1%2Ffirst-passage-darkness

And this is just a piece im still working on thats supposed to reflect dark thoughts and kind of express an uneasy state of mind.

I still have alot to learn, while im working on writing these into sibelius (its a habit i picked up to write in piano roll then in notation since im not very knowledgeable on notation)

Feedback would be appreciated, and possibly any good links to theory and notation would also be good.


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## ricardo_jvc6

ah don't say that from yourself. For me your not an amateur. Nobody is. Also I like mostly of your compositions


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## Igneous01

thanks, i was mostly just referring to my 'lack' of musical knowledge. I find some people feel offended when someone writes music but didnt study it as others did.


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## Kopachris

These actually sound quite good, though by my personal definition of "classical," I wouldn't quite call it classical music. It would certainly make good film music, though. Your orchestration is quite clear, and you are certainly adept at constructing themes. Some reading on form would be advisable if you wish to make your music actually classical. Alan Belkin has four books on form: General Principles, Harmony, Counterpoint, and Orchestration. They can be found here: https://www.webdepot.umontreal.ca/Usagers/belkina/MonDepotPublic/ABWritingNAV.html
As far as individual forms go (e.g. Sonata, Minuet, Symphony, etc.), Wikipedia is your friend, or I'm sure you could find a book on Amazon about classical form.

As for notation, I'd suggest taking a look at LilyPond (http://www.lilypond.org), a notation program that produces much nicer output than Sibelius. Its input is text-based rather than point-and-click, so it's not right for everyone, but if you can enjoy the text-based input, picking a sufficiently complex piece of classical music and re-notating it with LilyPond (heads up: this will take months for a piece of any length) can teach you a lot about notation. If LilyPond isn't your thing, the best advice I can give you is to simply read a score while listening to music. If you have any questions about what a particular symbol means, the people here can help.


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## Igneous01

thanks for the suggestions Kopachris, theres alot i need to study to get the hang of writing in classical, and thanks for the link on alan belkin, it was very useful and informative.

I have an update on new pieces i started working on:

Here is a piano concerto i started working on, the first movement is almost done, kind of made me think of tchaikovskys piano concerto 1 when writing

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https://soundcloud.com/sapphire-1%2Fpiano-concerto-1-mov-i

And here is a string quartet i started working on, beethovens grosse fugue was my main inspiration for writing this movement. Also this is where i started using fugue like technique for writing


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https://soundcloud.com/sapphire-1%2Fstring-quartet-002-1st-mov

feedback and suggestions appreciated - I get the feeling I havnt connected the ideas in my quartet fully well and could use suggestions for that


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## Kopachris

Yes, your ideas in the String Quartet aren't connected very well, are they? They seem to lack unity and coherence. The biggest advice I can give you on that is to read that first book by Alan Belkin, _A Practical Guide to Musical Composition_ (link). It's all about flow vs. break, foreground vs. background, unity vs. novelty, etc. and also gives pointers on how to construct transitions, beginnings, endings, climaxes, and so forth. And I mean really read it: do whatever you have to do to make it stick in your mind. The way _I_ learn best is by writing notes longhand as I read it, summarizing what I read. A lot of people learn more visually, though. Do whatever helps _you_ learn.


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## Igneous01

Ok, after reading through the first book and taking notes as well so i have them to reference and remember. I find myself slightly confused by the whole process.

For example, the form of the piece - So far I have decided to extract the fugue portion of the piece and make it its own separate work, but now Im trying to think about how the form of the original piece will sound - do I do theme A/B then some development and finally bring it back to A?

how long are episodes supposed to be in a piece?
if I have lets say 3 themes that are well connected by a few episodes, is this still ok as a musical form?



I figured maybe ill try the sonata form for the first movement, after reading and digesting the description of it on wiki (which im surprised how detailed it is) it leaves me to ask alot of questions like:

if an introduction is used, what is and isnt allowed to be said in the introduction?

is a theme still acceptable even though it maybe crosses into other keys temporarily?

just what exactly is supposed to happen in the development stage? is it just modulating the themes and changing the motives and juxtposing, and little episodes and transitions, or can new ideas be made (even if only temporary) in this stage?

For some reason it feels like if i try to write something new, it feels like im breaking the rules of the sonata form.

perhaps im just overthinking this, but theres just so many holes in the form that im not sure what i can and cannot do.


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## Kopachris

Ah, good questions! I love to see that you're learning to think more like a classical musician!  Keep in mind that so long as a composer knows what he's doing, any rule may be broken for effect. So, for specifics:


Igneous01 said:


> Ok, after reading through the first book and taking notes as well so i have them to reference and remember. I find myself slightly confused by the whole process.
> 
> For example, the form of the piece - So far I have decided to extract the fugue portion of the piece and make it its own separate work, but now Im trying to think about how the form of the original piece will sound - do I do theme A/B then some development and finally bring it back to A?


That could work very well. The fugue portion could even become a movement of the larger work (a string quartet is usually a four-movement work, usually a sonata form first, then a slow movement, then a dance movement such as minuet and trio, and a fast finale). Presenting two contrasting themes, developing them, and recapitulating them is a well-used and very easy technique that still sounds very good.


> how long are episodes supposed to be in a piece?
> if I have lets say 3 themes that are well connected by a few episodes, is this still ok as a musical form?


Episodes that are too short and not well-connected sound chaotic. So long as your themes fluidly transition from one to another, you can use your own judgment as to how long they need to be. The music shouldn't usually come to a complete stop before the end of the movement, so sectional divisions should be somewhat concealed, and the more fluid the transition, the shorter a section can be while still sounding good (too fluid, though, and the division is lost and it becomes part of another section instead of its own section). Composers will often start one section while another is stopping, in counterpoint. Introducing new material in the background this way creates a nice, gradual transition. Deceptive cadences may also be used, so that while it seems like a section is coming to its finale, it really leads right into the next one.
If you have three sections, each beginning with a different theme, that smoothly transition into one another, yes, that's a good musical form, so long as you keep a balance between new material and old material. You may want to consider repeating each section at least once, so that it becomes a sort of extended binary form: AABBCC. If you make the ending of each repeat different, so that it transitions smoothly into the next section instead of back to itself, you have: AA'BB'CC'. You might also replace the repeat of C with a repeat of A, bringing the whole piece back to itself: AA'BB'CA. Removing the original repeat of A, and replacing the repeat of B with a repeat of A, we have a short rondo form: ABACA. The possibilities are endless, you could pick any of those would be good forms.


> I figured maybe ill try the sonata form for the first movement, after reading and digesting the description of it on wiki (which im surprised how detailed it is) it leaves me to ask alot of questions like:
> 
> if an introduction is used, what is and isnt allowed to be said in the introduction?


Basically anything could be said in the introduction. It could be a preview of material that might be heard during the development, or it could be something that's never heard again. If you use the latter, the introduction should flow into the exposition more smoothly than if it were the former. Tchaikovsky often used the introduction of the sonata form in his symphonies in order to present the main theme of the symphony in all its glory to avoid the strict formal requirements of the sonata form, which didn't allow him to present the theme in the way he wanted. One thing that's fairly regular is that the introduction is usually quite different from the beginning of the exposition, usually by tempo, but could also be by texture or harmony.


> is a theme still acceptable even though it maybe crosses into other keys temporarily?


You mean modulation? In a modified sonata form, yes modulation would be fine during the exposition of the subject groups. In a strict sonata form, the subject groups themselves don't modulate, except in the transition from the first subject group (in the tonic key) to the second subject group (in the dominant key). Traditionally, modulation has been the primary method of developing themes in the development, so all kinds of modulation are acceptable there. There is usually no more modulation once you get into the recapitulation, but as I said, the sonata form could be modified to end on a different key than it began, and that was used quite often by Romantic composers.


> just what exactly is supposed to happen in the development stage? is it just modulating the themes and changing the motives and juxtposing, and little episodes and transitions, or can new ideas be made (even if only temporary) in this stage?


All of the above! Traditionally, most development was simply modulation and juxtaposition of the themes presented in the exposition, but really anything can happen in the development. New material is a great way to link the two main themes, too.


> For some reason it feels like if i try to write something new, it feels like im breaking the rules of the sonata form.
> 
> perhaps im just overthinking this, but theres just so many holes in the form that im not sure what i can and cannot do.


Don't worry too much about it. If a few rules are broken, we can just call it a modified sonata form. After all, rules are meant to be broken, especially in music! Even within the constraints of a strict sonata form, there are a lot of places for creativity, such as the transitions and codettas in the exposition and recapitulation, which could be any length and contain any material so long as they perform the proper modulation (or no modulation, as in the recapitulation). Even though it's not traditional, they could even temporarily modulate to another key and then modulate back to where they're supposed to go. And of course, the development is free for basically anything.


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## Igneous01

god i must say thank for this in depth explanation, i really appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions and so thoroughly, i feel alot more comfortable now with what im doing, and it looks like my first movement is starting to sound more coherant and fluid. but just one questions remains that i didnt exactly clear up:

is a theme still acceptable even though it maybe crosses into other keys temporarily? 


what i meant by this is that in the exposition, are the themes generally constricted to their key? for example if i had a theme in c major scale, but certain progressions in the theme move into keys that are not in the c major scale (for example the melody shifts from a C-E-G chord to a C-E-G#) i think that would be a c major triad to (im not sure what the other would be called, still need to learn the chord names) would this be an acceptable theme for a sonata? its not really modulation as more to progress the theme in a slightly different manner (which is something i do a little too much i suppose)

i hope you understand what i mean, but i must thank you again for all the help you have offered me here 

_-_ I bow down to your knowledge.


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## Couchie

The only value in learning the rules of harmony is understanding how to break them.


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## Kopachris

I'm sorry, I misunderstood your question earlier as referring to brief modulations. What you're talking about it using foreign tones and chords, which was actually used quite often to add variety. A foreign chord usually doesn't necessarily indicate modulation, unless the following material continues in that key, in which case the effect of the modulation could be very abrupt and confusing to the listener. So short answer, yes, you can use foreign chords in your theme.

Now for the long answer. Foreign chords (that is, chords from another key), were used quite often to add variety by increasing the notes a composer could use. Most commonly used were secondary dominants, or the fifth chords of other keys. The most common secondary dominant, of course, would be the VofV. In C Major, that chord would be a D Maj (D-F#-A) chord. A secondary dominant typically progressed to its own tonic, as in VofV-V (e.g. D Maj - G Maj). Sometimes, a composer might have a phrase where each chord is the dominant of the next, so you might have VofII-VofV-V-I (AM-DM-GM-CM). The theory behind using foreign chords is that if each tonal chord (I, II, IV, and V) is in turn supported by a tonal chord from its own key, then tonality is even stronger.

A C-E-G# chord, by the way, would usually be treated as an incomplete dominant seventh chord in D Major, the complete dominant seventh of D Major being A-C-E-G#. Therefore, that would be analyzed as V7ofII, and would usually resolve to VofV (the aforementioned D-F#-A), which would usually resolve to V (G-B-D). But of course, as I said before, if you feel that breaking a "rule" sounds right, or fits your purposes, feel free to break it. Even typically "strict" classical composers such as Mozart or Bach broke rules sometimes, and later composers broke them far more frequently.

If you really want to learn more about common practice harmony (and have $40-65 to spare), I'd suggest Walter Piston's _Harmony_. From what I've heard of your music, though, you don't seem to have any trouble with this--you have a good ear for what does and doesn't sound good.


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## Igneous01

sorry it took me so long to respond, but i must sincerely thank you for the help and insight youve give me
kopachris, it has definitely helped me in understanding classical and its form.

I thought today would be a good time to post my progress on my quartet im working on, although there are still alot of things needed to be done in it, i figure suggestions and feedback would be important now as i have decided on how i am going to proceed with this quartet.

heres the link to the entire quartet, its not done, and there are alot of things that obviously need to be corrected (lots of bad transitions and cadences and ideas thrown around, but its slowly coming along)


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https://soundcloud.com/sapphire-1%2Fsets

now to go into more detail as to my plan on this quartet

1st movement - sonata andante -
this is my modified sonata form and the opening to the quartet, its slow, and contrasts between bitter and sweet like themes, kind of a reflection of my personality as being at times, kind, moral and sweet, and other times, bitter, angry and sad. The introduction begins in a different key, and theme A is in A major, with theme B being in E minor (not exactly subdominant, but it works for me) and then the development unfolding with snippets of the introduction, presenting a 3rd and 4th theme (the sweet theme being at 3:06, with the fourth theme (the buildup) right after it) then the recapitulation being BA with the coda from the exposition repeated.

2nd Movement - Sonata Rondo - Allegro Moderato - 
A faster and happier sort of movement, in the subdominant. Kind of a false sense of happyness, portraying being sort of relieved and excited, but in a somewhat sinister way.

3rd Movement - ??? - Vivace
This is the original movement i posted earlier, but an older version before it was converted into a fugue like style. This is by no means complete and alot of scattered ideas, but This will be my parallel minor to the second movement (D major - D minor), its supposed to be somewhat crazy and mad, lots of dissonance, strange harmonies, and all in all a piece that wont really resemble anything structural.

4th Movement - Moderato - 
A slow sad sort of movement, kind of a repentance of sins committed in the third movement (where insanity prevails) not really much form here, just goes ABCABC (with variations in the second run) - im still thinking of where to go with this. it goes back into the parallel major (D major)

5th Movement - Fugue - Vivace
A Return to the original tonic (A Major) with lots of twists and turns into alot of different keys. The exposition and recapitulation isnt complete (it sounds ugly, i know) but it portrays a struggle with being contempt and battling demons from the past (so a sort of struggle for happyness) but i plan to resolve the fugue in its tonic, to symbolize triumphant victory over evil (so to speak)

Quite a wall of text i put down, but id want to atleast describe the personality of this quartet so that people who might not get it, understand it a little more what is happening.

So, what do people think of this idea? does it fit or work? i know its alot of philosophy and insight into a work, but i want to take this work seriously so im doing all in my power to accomplish that.

and of course, if anyone has anything to add, feel free to do so, the more critique and feedback, the better.


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## chee_zee

My favorite book on form is the 200+ page

"Classical Form" by William Caplin.


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## Vor Gott

Kopachris said:


> ...
> But of course, as I said before, if you feel that breaking a "rule" sounds right, or fits your purposes, feel free to break it. Even typically "strict" classical composers such as Mozart or Bach broke rules sometimes, and later composers broke them far more frequently.
> ...


I was quite relieved and pleased to see this comment! After listening to the first Piano piece, I got a sense that Igneous was literally forcing the "harmony" into the same key as the first-expressed melody. However, such a time as a progression is perfect to break the rules of music-most likely giving a few old Baroque geezers heart attacks in the process. What follows is expressed simply as relationships of notes by example because I have neither the key nor the ability to deduce it!

Your initial melody in "Piano 1" first appears as a theme analogous to:

B-flat•G•F•E-flat (_descending_)

After which it occasionally drops the final note. In any key (I chose B-flat major), this would be a descent of four notes along the scale, from the root, omitting the first, which is A in this case. Using and identifying the root is important because, as you may know, the major scale is an asymmetric pattern of (when ascending) two whole-steps, one half step, three whole steps, and finally a half step back to the root, an octave higher. Thus starting from a different position on the major scale would have a different result.

As you progress the theme you might be tempted to shift the harmonics proportionally, but along the key of the work as opposed to using a proportional step to the progression, proposed by the progressed theme. For example:

B-flat•G•F becomes C•A•G when shifted upwards by one step, along the key, that is, only the notes of the scale, and in many cases, different, whole or half step shifts for each note.

If your background had been descending triplets of E-flat•D•C, it would now become triplets of F•E•D. This is assuming that you wish to progress upwards one whole step-with the root of the theme. The note E is obviously not in the key of B-flat; this 'perversion of tonality would occur regardless of key.

This is the only example which I could think of with my very limited experience in composition and theory. I am very sorry if I made it sound quite confusing or if there is a more relevant and useful one!


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## psicorp

I really love atmospheric movement. Really something beautiful you've got there. I would try to work just a bit on the mixing and maybe make it a bit louder, and also change it up somewhere past the middle. I really love some of the changes you have in there and the general mood nevertheless.


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