# Overrated Pianists?



## straddlemyvarius

Who do you think is the most overrated pianist?

For me, I would have to answer that with “Barenboim”.

I’ve been going through my Beethoven collection recently, seeing as though it was Beethoven’s 250th not long ago, and I’m sure every single one of you did the same.

Came across some Barenboim. After listening to a few random movements of LvB piano sonatas, I immediately thought to myself: “I paid for THIS?” (I’m referring to the DVD box set where he performed all 32 piano sonatas live.)

His playing is sloppy all around. He uses too much pedal, drowning about 25% of the notes, plays scales unevenly in note-value and volume. Et cetera.

I reckon every amateur/semi-pro pianist in, for example, the Warsaw Chopin Piano competitions, could play Beethoven better than he can.

How is this guy considered a “great” Beethoven interpreter? Terrible “amazing” pianist, IMO. DG, why?! Sokolov, Kissin, etc. completely understand.... Barenboim though?!


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## Handelian

I don’t like these threads where we pull people and artists to pieces. I feel at the moment there’s enough negativity in the world for everyone and it would be far better to think of which are the best pianists anddiscuss what is good about them rather than those who we think are overrated. In any case it usually comes out to a matter of prejudice anyway


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## EmperorOfIceCream

I don’t want to be negative either, but I was just about to answer barenboim too lol. I have no idea how he has had such an amazing career, if I played like that my piano teacher would roast me so bad that dishonor would be brought upon my family for three generations


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## vtpoet

Brahms. 

I've read that his music was much better than his playing. Still. More musical talent in his thumb nail than in all of me put together.


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## Handelian

EmperorOfIceCream said:


> I don't want to be negative either, but I was just about to answer barenboim too lol. I have no idea how he has had such an amazing career, if I played like that my piano teacher would roast me so bad that dishonor would be brought upon my family for three generations


If I played like that my teacher would have fallen off her chair in amazement!


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## Animal the Drummer

vtpoet said:


> Brahms.
> 
> I've read that his music was much better than his playing. Still. More musical talent in his thumb nail than in all of me put together.


Where did you read that? Every account I've ever seen said that he was a tremendous pianist.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern

What exactly are the criteria for scrutinizing a professional grade musician this way? While expression and touch certainly differ, in the end they're playing the same notes right? I've seen Glenn Gould and Evgeny Kissin come under heavy fire around these parts and I don't have the ear to detect the subtlety there as more experienced listeners might have. 

EDIT: Forgot Barenboim, though he was the first to come up in this thread. Gets a lot of hate on here. To be fair, I'm not partial to any particular musician, conductor, orchestra, etc. as I don't feel it's my place to judge.


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## consuono

Barenboim was mentioned. Now he's nowhere near being among my favorite pianists (or conductors), but since he's to my knowledge never really been held up to be the GOAT I don't know that he's really been "overrated". I'd echo those who say they're tired of the constant "overrated" line of thought. If I don't particularly like this composer or conductor or orchestra or musician, I don't listen.


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## Mandryka

Barenboim is interesting in op 131/ii on EMI, slow, like Claudio Arrau and Ernst Levy. There's also a Mozart concerto worth a listen, K 451 (PC 16)


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## Bulldog

Although I find Barenboim a horror show in Bach, I do appreciate his Beethoven and Mozart recordings.


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## Mandryka

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> What exactly are the criteria for scrutinizing a professional grade musician this way? .


The answer is contained in this song


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern

Mandryka said:


> The answer is contained in this song


I think I just succumbed to an 80s overdose


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## Highwayman

Although I`m not very fond of his solo repertoire, I consider Barenboim a top notch chamber player and a decent accompanist. Therefore, I`m not exactly sure how to rate his pianism but I would not say he is an overrated musician in general. The only pianist I might consider as overrated is Sokolov. I have yet to witness an interpretation by him that I do not dislike.


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## Geoff48

Not sure why there is such a dislike for Barenboim. Okay, his Berlin Philharmonic Mozart is somewhat heavy but try the youthful exuberance of his earlier set with the English Chamber Orchestra. Then again his Beethoven and Brahms concertos with Klemperer and Barbirolli respectively show that he was great when paired with an experienced conductor. His early set of Mozart symphonies is still highly enjoyable. I can accept that as he has grown older his style is less free and a little more heavy but he can still delivery the goods. Try the Mozart Wind Sinfonia Concentante with his East West Divan Orchestra on Warner Classics where he seems to persuade the young musicians to have fun whilst playing. And who can forget Nupen’s film of the Trout with Perlman, Zukerman, du Pre and Zubin Mehta.
For me the young Barenboim was a great musician and if I prefer him to his later more considered self I still think he is a pretty good pianist and musician even if I wish that he was less influenced by the style of Furtwangler.


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## Bulldog

Highwayman said:


> Although I`m not very fond of his solo repertoire, I consider Barenboim a top notch chamber player and a decent accompanist. Therefore, I`m not exactly sure how to rate his pianism but I would not say he is an overrated musician in general. The only pianist I might consider as overrated is Sokolov. I have yet to witness an interpretation by him that I do not dislike.


I'm at the opposite end. Every recording that I have of his pleases me greatly, especially his wonderful Art of Fugue.


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## Bulldog

Geoff48 said:


> Not sure why there is such a dislike for Barenboim.


It's only a couple of members who think poorly of Barenboim's music-making.


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## straddlemyvarius

Handelian said:


> In any case it usually comes out to a matter of prejudice anyway


Wow. Negative view of the entire world much?


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## SONNET CLV

I'll celebrate this thread by revisiting my Barenboim Beethoven Sonatas box sets















which I have enjoyed greatly over a number of years, and shall continue to do so, I'm sure.

I can then turn to my Barenboim (with Klemperer/Philharmonia) Beethoven Concertos









and top things off with the conductor Barenboim taking on the Beethoven Symphonies.









And if you want, you Barenboim haters can revel in _schadenfreude_ at knowing how miserable I must be to spend precious time listening to such tripe.


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## Pat Fairlea

I wouldn't normally pile on, but this thread coincides with flicking through my CDs and wondering how Shura Cherkassky came to be so well regarded. Maybe he was much more convincing live, but on recordings he too often sounds to me to be right at the limits of his technique.


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## chu42

Not a fan of Barenboim, but he's an important pianist who at least has something to say.

Valentina Lisitsa strikes me as the worst pianist that is well known. The only reason why she received any attention at all is due to horny middle-aged men and cheapo thrill-seekers who have no conception of musicality. Sure explains why her repertoire is tiny and only contains the most trite, overperformed, showpieces.

And this has nothing to do with her music making but she's a racist, nationalist, devout Putin lackey.


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## consuono

chu42 said:


> ...
> Valentina Lisitsa strikes me as the worst pianist that is well known. The only reason why she received any attention at all is due to horny middle-aged men and cheapo thrill-seekers...


I think it has more to do with YouTube or social media in general. I've honestly never watched or listened to her. In the guitar world Tatyana Ryzhkova was boosted mightily by YT vids, or so it seems.


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## Rogerx

Vladimir Horowitz, overhyped and overrated.


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## Open Book

Bulldog said:


> It's only a couple of members who think poorly of Barenboim's music-making.


There's one member who doesn't like Barenboim's face.


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## Handelian

straddlemyvarius said:


> Wow. Negative view of the entire world much?


No there are certain people who get prejudices against certain artists who are popular. Their minds work that way.


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## Handelian

Rogerx said:


> Vladimir Horowitz, overhyped and overrated.


That is why people queued up for hours on end to get in his concerts. Poor souls!


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## hammeredklavier




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## Mifek

Highwayman said:


> The only pianist I might consider as overrated is Sokolov. I have yet to witness an interpretation by him that I do not dislike.





Bulldog said:


> I'm at the opposite end. Every recording that I have of his pleases me greatly, especially his wonderful Art of Fugue.


I have seen Sokolov performing live on two occasions (first playing Mozart and Schumann and then Beethoven) and in both cases this was an unforgettable experience, probably the best piano recitals I've ever listened to. However, I have never been able to feel the same when listening to his studio or live recordings on CDs. It seems like he is able to create an atmosphere that for some unknown reasons cannot be fully reproduced on recordings.


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## geralmar

Can we reach a consensus?


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## EnescuCvartet

Animal the Drummer said:


> Where did you read that? Every account I've ever seen said that he was a tremendous pianist.


Me too. In particular, I recall a letter from the Brahms-Weick correspondence in which he said something to the effect that his playing had developed to such an extent that he could probably tour solo, as a virtuoso. Judging from the tone of the letter and the lines before and after, I gathered he was in earnest.


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## Mandryka

Animal the Drummer said:


> Where did you read that? Every account I've ever seen said that he was a tremendous pianist.


Well you can judge for yourself -- here he is tickling the ivories






Pianists don't sound like that these days, that's for sure.


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## chu42

EnescuCvartet said:


> Me too. In particular, I recall a letter from the Brahms-Weick correspondence in which he said something to the effect that his playing had developed to such an extent that he could probably tour solo, as a virtuoso. Judging from the tone of the letter and the lines before and after, I gathered he was in earnest.


Brahms was a gifted virtuoso in his youth, but when he focused more and more on composing, his playing gradually became more coarse due to less time spent practicing. Of course some reviewers simply disliked the music he was writing and some of his reputation may come from that.


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## Agamenon

Overrated or Overplayed?


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## EmperorOfIceCream

I'm joking mostly, Barenboim is way better than me and he is definitely a first-rate musician, I just think his interpretations are off the mark and often bizzare, very romanticized even when he isn't playing romantic music. 
Sokolov on the other hand, Sokolov is amazing. Just listen to his Chopin Preludes recording. Amazing.


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## Judith

There is only one that I think is overrated and that's Lang Lang. Have a few videos of him when I started taking classical music seriously six years ago but looking back and comparing with other pianists, very showy and more like a pop idol than a classical musician


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## DaveM

For all those dissing Barenboim, he recorded three sets of the complete Beethoven sonatas spanning a period of 35-40 years. Recording companies don't ordinarily contract with a performer to perform the same works multiple times if they are minor talents as some have insinuated here. The live recordings of circa 2006 are some of the greatest live performances of these works.

The Beethoven piano sonatas are some of the most, if not _the_ most recorded solo piano works and I think that what often happens is that people can get a fixed idea as to how they should be played, sometimes based on the first performances of the works they heard. Then if someone doesn't play them the way they're used to, they trash the pianist.

Personally, I love the Barenboim live performance of these sonatas and, furthermore, believe the interpretation and playing of the #32 Arietta to be one of its greatest performances. If you want to be moved and don't have a lot of time at the moment, start at 15:55 which is the beginning of the recapitulation and note particularly the sequence at 16:20-16:40 where Barenboim brings out detail that is lost by other pianists who rush through it. Imagine you are in the audience listening to this. If you weren't moved by it, I'd check your pulse.


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## KenOC

DaveM said:


> Personally, I love the Barenboim live performance of these sonatas and, furthermore, believe the interpretation and playing of the #32 Arietta to be one of its greatest performances. If you want to be moved and don't have a lot of time at the moment, start at 15:55 which is the beginning of the recapitulation and note particularly the sequence at 16:20-16:40 where Barenboim brings out detail that is lost by other pianists who rush through it. Imagine you are in the audience listening to this. If you weren't moved by it, I'd check your pulse.


Mr. B handles this entire sequence (to the end of the movement) beautifully. The whole movement suffuses the listener with warmth, and this latter part seems as if sitting almost too close to the fire. Who but Beethoven could conceive of this music?

BTW, "recapitulation" may not be the right word since this movement is a theme and variations.


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## DaveM

KenOC said:


> Mr. B handles this entire sequence (to the end of the movement) beautifully. The whole movement suffuses the listener with warmth, and this latter part seems as if sitting almost too close to the fire. Who but Beethoven could conceive of this music?
> 
> BTW, "recapitulation" may not be the right word since this movement is a theme and variations.


Perhaps not a recapitulation in the true sense of the word, since as you say, it is a movement of variations, but it is the closest thing to a restatement of the theme (rather than yet another variation) which leads to a beautifully drawn out coda.

Btw, what is it about the #32 that some of the most talented live-recording pianists avoid it, at least so far? Helene Grimaud has recorded #31 and the Brahms Piano Concerto #1, but no #32. Yuja Wang has recorded the #29 and the Brahms Piano Concerto #1, but no #32.


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## Rogerx

Handelian said:


> That is why people queued up for hours on end to get in his concerts. Poor souls!


More people with bad taste, just a hype.


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## Handelian

Rogerx said:


> More people with bad taste, just a hype.


Poor deluded souls. Pity they hadn't got you there to advise them of what is good taste.


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## Handelian

Judith said:


> There is only one that I think is overrated and that's Lang Lang. Have a few videos of him when I started taking classical music seriously six years ago but looking back and comparing with other pianists, very showy and more like a pop idol than a classical musician


Just a guy whose influence has caused millions to take up the piano. Most overrated.


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## Rogerx

> There are three kinds of pianists: Jewish pianists, homosexual pianists, and bad pianists.


Vladimir Horowitz .
Well, he can talk the old .......


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## Captainnumber36

I always preferred Brendel's Beethoven.


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## Rogerx

Captainnumber36 said:


> I always preferred Brendel's Beethoven.


That is not the point, see OP. it's about overrated pianist .


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## MarkW

Van Cliburn .


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## SONNET CLV

Open Book said:


> There's one member who doesn't like Barenboim's face.


Huh?
There's one member (at least) who doesn't like _my_ face. Me! I mean, there are quite a few _GQ_ cover faces that I would much prefer to wear out into the world (and I think my wife would agree, too), but ... what does that have to do with musicianship???


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## staxomega

Bulldog said:


> I'm at the opposite end. Every recording that I have of his pleases me greatly, especially his wonderful Art of Fugue.


Very romantic interpretation, one of the earlier recordings I heard of AoF that made me fall in love with it. Even if my tastes in interpretation for AoF have changed since then there is no denying the greatness of Sokolov's recording.


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## Captainnumber36

ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  :lol:


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## hammeredklavier




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## John Lenin

Martha Argerich..... without doubt. Pushed forwards by the old male critical press for the usual reasons


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## John Lenin

Rogerx said:


> Vladimir Horowitz, overhyped and overrated.


Yes, like listening to a typewriter.... albeit a very quick typewriter


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## Open Book

John Lenin said:


> Martha Argerich..... without doubt. Pushed forwards by the old male critical press for the usual reasons


Someone recently called her the greatest living pianist so in that sense she is overrated.

https://www.masslive.com/entertainment/2017/10/review_martha_argerich_remains.html


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## arthro

What happens if a pianist calls him/her-self over-rated?

I.e. have been self-disparaging in some way.

I think it has been said, although only by pianists who have already reached the top: Brendel and Gilels have been caught belittling themselves.


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## Phil loves classical

chu42 said:


> Not a fan of Barenboim, but he's an important pianist who at least has something to say.
> 
> Valentina Lisitsa strikes me as the worst pianist that is well known. The only reason why she received any attention at all is due to horny middle-aged men and cheapo thrill-seekers who have no conception of musicality. Sure explains why her repertoire is tiny and only contains the most trite, overperformed, showpieces.
> 
> And this has nothing to do with her music making but she's a racist, nationalist, devout Putin lackey.


Yup. I don't feel bothered to be picky about pianists anymore. But Lisitsa stands out as one who doesn't belong on the center stage.


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## Mandryka

arthro said:


> What happens if a pianist calls him/her-self over-rated?
> 
> I.e. have been self-disparaging in some way.
> 
> I think it has been said, although only by pianists who have already reached the top: Brendel and Gilels have been caught belittling themselves.


Someone who knew him once said to me that Charles Rosen was well aware of his own limitations as a concert pianist, and that was why he decided to focus more on musicology. Gustav Leonhardt disliked playing piano, felt absolutely no rapport with the instrument -- he did make a few piano recordings though, Mozart. I also know that Curzon was acutely aware of his nervousness, aware that it often resulted in unsatisfactory performances; I bet the same was true for Schnabel.


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## hammeredklavier

vtpoet said:


> Brahms.
> I've read that his music was much better than his playing.


I'm reminded of the quote "Wagner's music is much better than it sounds" :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## Dimace

Bulldog said:


> Although I find Barenboim a horror show in Bach, I do appreciate his Beethoven and Mozart recordings.


Daniel, is for me the very best living Beethoven performer. He is also, this is important to me, super Liszt performer. (his Consolations are close to reference level) I have no opinion for his Mozart or Bach and I trust yours.


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## Rogerx

Captainnumber36 said:


> ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  :lol:


Self notice is a virtue Captain.


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## Machiavel

I really want you to post something over youtube too see how much better you are than him. I am awaiting...


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## Machiavel

EmperorOfIceCream said:


> I don't want to be negative either, but I was just about to answer barenboim too lol. I have no idea how he has had such an amazing career, if I played like that my piano teacher would roast me so bad that dishonor would be brought upon my family for three generations


I want you to post something over youtube that barenboim played to see your amazing elite playing


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## Machiavel

I want everybody that dont like a pianist and are so quick to critic elite wordwide pianist to post them playing. It will be so fun to see


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## Rogerx

Machiavel said:


> I want everybody that dont like a pianist and are so quick to critic elite wordwide pianist to post them playing. It will be so fun to see


OP starts :clap:


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## Luchesi

MarkW said:


> Van Cliburn .


*Van Cliburn plays and conducts Prokofiev Concerto No. 3
*


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## chu42

Machiavel said:


> I want everybody that dont like a pianist and are so quick to critic elite wordwide pianist to post them playing. It will be so fun to see


Ah yes, one of the truly half-witted lines of reasoning that enjoys widespread usage. The idea that you have to be as good as someone in order to criticize them.

It's an extension of the ad hominem fallacy-attacking someone's personal characteristics rather than attacking the argument they're making. You're magically waving away any potential argument by saying "well you're not as good as them, so there."

I wonder if people use this kind of ham-fisted logic in other facets of life:

-Does one have to be a film director in order to criticize a film?

-Does one have to be a car designer to tell if their car is working poorly?

-Do you have to be a lawmaker yourself in order to criticize politicians?

If the answer is no, why does one have to be a pianist to criticise a pianist?

And by the way, here is my recording of Liszt's Reminiscences de Don Juan:


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## ArtMusic

I think Glenn Gould playing Bach is overrated. His playing is fine but I think it has more to do with the onset of mass recordings in the 1950's and beyond because he was the early pianist who made it to record companies and the merchandizing of records. It could have been any capable pianist who signed up at the time.

Today, I think he is but one of many, many keyboard players and certainly overshadowed by the younger generation of HIP Bach harpsichord players.


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## chu42

ArtMusic said:


> I think Glenn Gould playing Bach is overrated. His playing is fine but I think it has more to do with the onset of mass recordings in the 1950's and beyond because he was the early pianist who made it to record companies and the merchandizing of records. It could have been any capable pianist who signed up at the time.
> 
> Today, I think he is but one of many, many keyboard players and certainly overshadowed by the younger generation of HIP Bach harpsichord players.


I would agree with you there. Gould has some excellent recordings but some people would like to think that Gould is the end all be all of Bach even when they haven't explored any other options.


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## Luchesi

chu42 said:


> Ah yes, one of the truly half-witted lines of reasoning that enjoys widespread usage. The idea that you have to be as good as someone in order to criticize them.
> 
> It's an extension of the ad hominem fallacy-attacking someone's personal characteristics rather than attacking the argument they're making. You're magically waving away any potential argument by saying "well you're not as good as them, so there."
> 
> I wonder if people use this kind of ham-fisted logic in other facets of life:
> 
> -Does one have to be a film director in order to criticize a film?
> 
> -Does one have to be a car designer to tell if their car is working poorly?
> 
> -Do you have to be a lawmaker yourself in order to criticize politicians?
> 
> If the answer is no, why does one have to be a pianist to criticise a pianist?
> 
> *And by the way, here is my recording of Liszt's Reminiscences de Don Juan:*


You make it look easy. Excellent!


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## Bruckner Anton

I am less interested in any keyboardists that either dont record/perform Bach and Beethoven, or cannot play them well. This includes some of the best known pianists in the past century.


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## Open Book

Arrau. He looks patrician. His interpretations are dull as dishwater.

Argerich. Her slick playing emphasizes wrong aspects of the music and the passion sounds synthetic.

Both of them ruin almost everything they touch for me. I suppose my humble opinion doesn't make them overrated, though.


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## JTS

Open Book said:


> Arrau. He looks patrician. His interpretations are dull as dishwater.
> 
> Argerich. Her slick playing emphasizes wrong aspects of the music and the passion sounds synthetic.
> 
> Both of them ruin almost everything they touch for me. I suppose my humble opinion doesn't make them overrated, though.


Interesting. Marta must have made some recordings I haven't heard.


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## vtpoet

Lang Lang. Way over-hyped in my opinion; and I was never very impressed with Kieth Jarret's playing.


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## Red Terror

Khatia Buniatishvili. I loathe her playing as much as Lang Lang's.


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## Red Terror

vtpoet said:


> Lang Lang. Way over-hyped in my opinion; and I was never very impressed with Kieth Jarret's playing.


Lang Lang and Gaga should make an album together - Two Heaps of Dung.


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## JTS

vtpoet said:


> Lang Lang. Way over-hyped in my opinion; and I was never very impressed with Kieth Jarret's playing.


Amazing the way Lang Lang has managed to generate interest in puano playing then


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## JTS

chu42 said:


> Ah yes, one of the truly half-witted lines of reasoning that enjoys widespread usage. The idea that you have to be as good as someone in order to criticize them.
> 
> It's an extension of the ad hominem fallacy-attacking someone's personal characteristics rather than attacking the argument they're making. You're magically waving away any potential argument by saying "well you're not as good as them, so there."
> 
> I wonder if people use this kind of ham-fisted logic in other facets of life:
> 
> -Does one have to be a film director in order to criticize a film?
> 
> -Does one have to be a car designer to tell if their car is working poorly?
> 
> -Do you have to be a lawmaker yourself in order to criticize politicians?
> 
> If the answer is no, why does one have to be a pianist to criticise a pianist?
> 
> And by the way, here is my recording of Liszt's Reminiscences de Don Juan:


Quite right! We're like the spectator on the football terraces telling the professional how to play and giving the manager our opinion how to manage. All good fun. Them who can't do it become a critic!


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## vtpoet

//Amazing the way Lang Lang has managed to generate interest in puano playing then...//

Not really.


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## JTS

vtpoet said:


> //Amazing the way Lang Lang has managed to generate interest in puano playing then...//
> 
> Not really.


I must start tomorrow then as it's that easy!


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## vtpoet

JTS said:


> I must start tomorrow then as it's that easy!


Glenn Gould said he could teach anyone to play the piano in a couple of hours, or something like that, so have fun. I look forward to your CDs.


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## starthrower

vtpoet said:


> I was never very impressed with Kieth Jarret's playing.


You don't know how to spell his name either. I don't know about his classical recordings but he's a great jazz improviser, bandleader and composer with a gigantic and impressive discography.


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## vtpoet

starthrower said:


> You don't know how to spell his name either. I don't know about his classical recordings but he's a great jazz improviser, bandleader and composer with a gigantic and impressive discography.


Meh, won't be the last name I spell wrong. Anyway, I was never that impressed by his improvisations either. They always struck me as rather anodyne in that way that jazz improvisation can be anodyne. But, I'm not a jazz fan so there's that. As to his classical recordings, I just find them generic. But if you like him, enjoy him.


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## Rogerx

Vladimir Horowitz , enough said .


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## Bwv 1080

Every pianist who recorded before the 60s is overrated - none of them are good enough to overcome the crappy sound of old recordings. Unless you are a scholar, why listen to them?


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## JTS

vtpoet said:


> Glenn Gould said he could teach anyone to play the piano in a couple of hours, or something like that, so have fun. I look forward to your CDs.


Yes Gould often said stupid things. I believe him just as much as I believe the keyboard adverts which say you could be an expert player in a couple of weeks


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## JTS

Bwv 1080 said:


> Every pianist who recorded before the 60s is overrated - none of them are good enough to overcome the crappy sound of old recordings. Unless you are a scholar, why listen to them?


Funny but I am still dazzled by Rachmaninoff's playing in spite of the recording. And I'll continue to enjoy Glenn Gould's 1955 Goldbergs. And a lot of others. And I am no music scholar I assure you.


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## Kreisler jr

Bwv 1080 said:


> Every pianist who recorded before the 60s is overrated - none of them are good enough to overcome the crappy sound of old recordings. Unless you are a scholar, why listen to them?


This is probably a joke but shouldn't it work the other way round? The very fact that pianists from the first half of the 20th century are hugely admired, despite the sometimes bad sound should be a reason that they are even better to make up for the defiency of their recordings. 
(I don't agree at all with the general verdict, though, I think there are many enjoyable shellac piano recordings, in fact solo piano is to me one of the most listenable historic recordings, compared to voices or orchestras.)


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## jdec

Captainnumber36 said:


> ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  :lol:


Are you even rated at all?


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## 59540

I would say Trifonov, but I think that's more for his emoting and grimacing than his playing. And they give Lang Lang a hard time?


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## 59540

Bwv 1080 said:


> Every pianist who recorded before the 60s is overrated - none of them are good enough to overcome the crappy sound of old recordings. Unless you are a scholar, why listen to them?


Horowitz recordings from the early 50s of the Beethoven 5th piano concerto and the Rachmaninov 3rd are the best I've heard.


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## John Zito

dissident said:


> I would say Trifonov, but I think that's more for his emoting and grimacing than his playing. And they give Lang Lang a hard time?


I second Trifonov. I heard him and Michael Tilson-Thomas perform Prokofiev 2 in Cleveland a few years ago, and I was pretty disappointed. But that was just me:

https://bachtrack.com/review-tchaik...ll-tilson-thomas-trifonov-clevland-march-2018


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## FrankE

hammeredklavier said:


>


I've never heard of Richard Kastle but he looks and sounds like record producer and musician Rick Beato.


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## jim prideaux

vtpoet said:


> Meh, won't be the last name I spell wrong. Anyway, I was never that impressed by his improvisations either. They always struck me as rather anodyne in that way that jazz improvisation can be anodyne. But, I'm not a jazz fan so there's that. As to his classical recordings, I just find them generic. But if you like him, enjoy him.


Just had a look at this thread.....as an admirer of Jarrett's music for what is now 40 years I have regularly found his improvisations to be some of the most consistently rewarding music I have ever heard.......anodyne?...generic?...As an earlier contributor commented is there really any need for this degree of negativity?,,,,but then again thanks for the permission to continue to enjoy the music!


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## hammeredklavier

FrankE said:


> I've never heard of Richard Kastle but he looks and sounds like record producer and musician Rick Beato.


He's a composer, btw


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## Oortone

...disregard this...


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## Open Book

John Zito said:


> I second Trifonov. I heard him and Michael Tilson-Thomas perform Prokofiev 2 in Cleveland a few years ago, and I was pretty disappointed. But that was just me:
> 
> https://bachtrack.com/review-tchaik...ll-tilson-thomas-trifonov-clevland-march-2018


I like Trifonov but I've wondered if there aren't other young pianists just as good who don't get regular gigs with the Berlin Philharmonic.


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## fbjim

Open Book said:


> I like Trifonov but I've wondered if there aren't other young pianists just as good who don't get regular gigs with the Berlin Philharmonic.


almost certainly - I think musical education has improved to the point where there are far more great pianists than there are slots on major labels, especially nowadays.

in a sense virtually every pianist on a major label is "overrated", but I don't think this is very useful.


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## Open Book

fbjim said:


> almost certainly - I think musical education has improved to the point where there are far more great pianists than there are slots on major labels, especially nowadays.
> 
> in a sense virtually every pianist on a major label is "overrated", but I don't think this is very useful.


That's exactly what I was thinking and I wonder if this hasn't always been true.


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## SanAntone

fbjim said:


> almost certainly - I think musical education has improved to the point where there are far more great pianists than there are slots on major labels, especially nowadays.
> 
> in a sense virtually every pianist on a major label is "overrated", but I don't think this is very useful.


IIRC, Trifonov won several high profile competitions. These finalists get offered representation and concert tours. The rest is up the them, i.e. how successful they are based on talent, charisma, luck, appearance, and other personality and musical criteria.

Obviously he has made the most of his opportunities.


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## Oortone

Rogerx said:


> Vladimir Horowitz , enough said .


I used to think the same but now I've changed my mind and think he's really great. Maybe not always but often.


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## Oortone

Glenn Gould is a genious sometimes and sometimes unbearable (even with Bach) does that qualify for overrated? 
I listened to him playing Beethovens Appssionata and it's like a clown playing, like Victor Borge. Like he's making fun of Beethoven.

Otherwise I join the crowd saying Barenboim, I really don't like his way of playing. It's like he deconstructs the pieces and then puts it together again but can't make the pieces fit together anymore. No flow in his playing.


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## Rogerx

Oortone said:


> I used to think the same but now I've changed my mind and think he's really great. Maybe not always but often.


That has not happened to me yet, ah well: plenty of fish( Pianists) in the see.


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## JTS

It has to be said that to get to the top as a pianist you need tremendous talent, tremendous dedication, tremendous perseverance and also a good deal of common or garden luck that you happen to be in the right place at the right time. There are some really excellent pianists out there who we’ve never heard of but who for some reason have never had the breaks that others have.

One pianist definitely over-rated was Joyce Hatto. The critics raved about her interpretations made late in her life only to be extremely red-faced when they found out that she had not played them at all and they had been hood-winked!


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## Luchesi

Oortone said:


> Glenn Gould is a genious sometimes and sometimes unbearable (even with Bach) does that qualify for overrated?
> I listened to him playing Beethovens Appssionata and it's like a clown playing, like Victor Borge. Like he's making fun of Beethoven.
> 
> Otherwise I join the crowd saying Barenboim, I really don't like his way of playing. It's like he deconstructs the pieces and then puts it together again but can't make the pieces fit together anymore. No flow in his playing.


He was trying to demonstrate what music theory elements Beethoven was using (over using) in such an obvious way. Gould didn't say one way or the other whether he admired the final product - or whether he was trying to show people why he didn't admire it.
But in any case, people will just make up their own opinion about what he was doing - and what it sounds like to them - and how Beethoven would've wanted it? We can't know how Beethoven would've played it morning or night, in every one of his moods, this week or the next.


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## premont

As to Gould he is IMO overrated by some, but since there are many, who don't rate him at all, I don't know if this makes him overrated (in average). 

I am one of those who rate Barenboim relatively highly, but I admit, that there are some flops among his productions. It may be a problem however to say which these are, as opinions differ. 

And it is a general problem that different people rate differently. I can only tell how I rate pianist x and y - others may rate quite otherwise.


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## Luchesi

When I bought my first Barenboim record (one of my first classical albums) he sounded very intense and hungry. He gave me my first experience of Beethoven the Titan. Later I found out that he was married to this cellist.


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## Open Book

So? Do you think she is the one who really played piano on all his recordings? She's an impressive pianist for a cellist.


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## 59540

Open Book said:


> So? Do you think she is the one who really played piano on all his recordings? She's an impressive pianist for a cellist.


So was Rostropovich, actually. So was Heifetz, for that matter:


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## Rogerx

Oortone said:


> I used to think the same but now I've changed my mind and think he's really great. Maybe not always but often.


I still don't like him and his playing, miserable old so and so.


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## Resurrexit

Rogerx said:


> I still don't like him and his playing, miserable old so and so.


Miserable old so and so? What on earth are you on about?


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## Rogerx

Resurrexit said:


> Miserable old so and so? What on earth are you on about?


He was , like always badmouthing colleagues as he was the best.
Try find his life motto........


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## Resurrexit

Rogerx said:


> He was , like always badmouthing colleagues as he was the best.
> Try find his life motto........


He had an ego. Not surprising. I know that there was a bit of a rivarly/falling out between him and Rubinstein, who also made some unkind remarks. I've heard similar things about Sviataslov Richter regarding badmouthing colleagues.

I wouldn't say any of that qualifies someone as a miserable so and so.


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## Ethereality

vtpoet said:


> Brahms.
> 
> I've read that his music was much better than his playing.


Much better than whom? His music was much better than just about anything, I don't really understand the above equation.

If this equation made tolerable sense, the shelf of a great composer would be filled with Paganini and Horowitz instead of Bach and Mozart  One talent is incomparible to the lesser ones.


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## JTS

Resurrexit said:


> He had an ego. Not surprising. I know that there was a bit of a rivarly/falling out between him and Rubinstein, who also made some unkind remarks. I've heard similar things about Sviataslov Richter regarding badmouthing colleagues.
> 
> I wouldn't say any of that qualifies someone as a miserable so and so.


Richter tended to badmouth himself too!


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## Kreisler jr

What contemporary comments do we have about Brahms' piano playing? 
He was apparently good enough to play his two concertos with embarrassing himself and both of these concertos are still considered very difficult to play, so even with standards of perfection ~150 years ago certainly not as high as today Brahms must have been pretty good, also because he certainly didn't practice that much once he was mainly composer, not a performer after his early years.


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## 59540

Kreisler jr said:


> What contemporary comments do we have about Brahms' piano playing?
> He was apparently good enough to play his two concertos with embarrassing himself and both of these concertos are still considered very difficult to play, so even with standards of perfection ~150 years ago certainly not as high as today Brahms must have been pretty good, also because he certainly didn't practice that much once he was mainly composer, not a performer after his early years.


I don't know, but his 51 Exercises are pretty tough, and I assume he could play them. Also I don't recall reading that Clara Schumann ever had anything negative to say about his playing, but then maybe I just haven't come across it yet.


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## Kreisler jr

Sorry, I meant of course "without embarrassing", I corrected it above. 
The Paganini variations are also very difficult, he must have been a very good player, if maybe not a flashy virtuoso in the style of Liszt or Rachmaninov. There is a horrible recording on a wax cylinder but I think it is doubtful in many respects and should not be taken as good evidence for Brahm's abilities as a pianist.

The main? piano composer who admittedly could not play his own more difficult piano pieces was Schubert.


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## DeepR

I don't know about overrated but Trifonov is troublesome for me. He's very close to brilliant, but just isn't. I find his playing a bit forced somehow.


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## Luchesi

Kreisler jr said:


> Sorry, I meant of course "without embarrassing"*, I corrected it above. *
> The Paganini variations are also very difficult, he must have been a very good player, if maybe not a flashy virtuoso in the style of Liszt or Rachmaninov. There is a horrible recording on a wax cylinder but I think it is doubtful in many respects and should not be taken as good evidence for Brahm's abilities as a pianist.
> 
> The main? piano composer who admittedly could not play his own more difficult piano pieces was Schubert.


I don't see it but maybe it's my browser.


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## Kreisler jr

Yes, apparently it was not saved; apparently I cannot edit anymore now. In any case, Brahms was good enough to play both of his concertos frequently in public.


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## mollig

DeepR said:


> I don't know about overrated but Trifonov is troublesome for me. He's very close to brilliant, but just isn't. I find his playing a bit forced somehow.


I have the same issues with Trifonov as with Igor Levit. They both do certain things very well, but are they head and shoulders above all their peers? I don't see much evidence for it, yet they get so much of the media attention as the two greatest pianists of their generation, etc. Which I suspect has a lot to do with the record companies and concert promoters trying to sell classical music to a new generation.
I also really struggle with their public profiles. Trifonov's ghastly kitsch photo shoots for all his albums, or Igor Levit's twitter feed, which suggests someone who sees the world in a very black-and-white and simplistic manner (in interviews he also comes across as petulant and not very intelligent). It's kind of hard to imagine them then approaching music in a tasteful and nuanced manner.
On the other hand, it's probably no worse than von Karajan's CD covers back in the 80s with sports cars and private jets.
Maybe just what has to be done for the marketing people if you're signed to a major label.

But it's sad to think that young pianists or musicians who aren't willing to embrace social media and PR in general might well be overlooked, even though they are no less talented than such classic "superstars".


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## John Zito

mollig said:


> I have the same issues with Trifonov as with Igor Levit. They both do certain things very well, but are they head and shoulders above all their peers? I don't see much evidence for it, yet they get so much of the media attention as the two greatest pianists of their generation, etc. Which I suspect has a lot to do with the record companies and concert promoters trying to sell classical music to a new generation.
> I also really struggle with their public profiles. Trifonov's ghastly kitsch photo shoots for all his albums, or Igor Levit's twitter feed, which suggests someone who sees the world in a very black-and-white and simplistic manner (in interviews he also comes across as petulant and not very intelligent). It's kind of hard to imagine them then approaching music in a tasteful and nuanced manner.
> On the other hand, it's probably no worse than von Karajan's CD covers back in the 80s with sports cars and private jets.
> Maybe just what has to be done for the marketing people if you're signed to a major label.
> 
> But it's sad to think that young pianists or musicians who aren't willing to embrace social media and PR in general might well be overlooked, even though they are no less talented than such classic "superstars".


At the very least I appreciate that Levit uses his platform to evangelize for lesser known repertoire: Rzewski, Busoni, Stevenson, Feldman, etc. I would say he's taken "bigger swings" in that area than anyone else on a major label.


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## fbjim

yeah Levit putting Rzewski along Bach and Beethoven was one of the most fun things a major label has done lately


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## Neo Romanza

Yuja Wang and Lang Lang come to mind immediately.


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## Dimace

Neo Romanza said:


> Yuja Wang and Lang Lang come to mind immediately.


The 1st post in this thread I can agree with it.

(Van Cliburn overrated? Van Cliburn? The Moscow conqueror? The best pianist US produced since nation's foundation? Not to mention that Arrau's name came also to my attention.)


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## mollig

sure, Levit does promote some less conventional mainstream music. His new recording of the Shostakovich preludes and fugues is itself quite unusual on a major label, and to accompany it with the Passacaglia on DSCH is certainly a bold choice. I have the recording, but again it goes back to my original point: the recording of Shostakovich P&Fs is solid but nothing spectacular, and the same for his Beethoven cycle, yet almost everything he releases wins awards and is lavished with superlatives. I do like his playing, I just don't see that it's any better than many of his peers who get none of the attention


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## JTS

fbjim said:


> yeah Levit putting Rzewski along Bach and Beethoven was one of the most fun things a major label has done lately


Gave me a reason not to buy it. The other was Levit's playing.


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## JTS

Neo Romanza said:


> Yuja Wang and Lang Lang come to mind immediately.


Yuja Wang? You are joking? Her playing is brilliant. And Lang Lang has only encouraged thousands of kids to play the piano.


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## 59540

JTS said:


> Yuja Wang? You are joking? Her playing is brilliant. And Lang Lang has only encouraged thousands of kids to play the piano.


I agree, especially about Yuja Wang. My only complaint would be that so far she's seemed to gravitate toward the "legendarily difficult", but she's still young. So is Lang Lang.


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## fluteman

Dimace said:


> The 1st post in this thread I can agree with it.
> 
> (Van Cliburn overrated? Van Cliburn? The Moscow conqueror? The best pianist US produced since nation's foundation? Not to mention that Arrau's name came also to my attention.)


Yes, Cliburn was a great pianist, though perhaps over-hyped as a cold war conqueror. I'm only sorry that his recordings are so much of the classical hits and virtuoso showpieces variety. The Prokofiev / MacDowell concerto record is good. But as for American pianists, some very good ones preceded him, including Earl Wild and William Kapell.


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## Couchie

Neo Romanza said:


> Yuja Wang and Lang Lang come to mind immediately.


Yuja is technically proficient, expressionate, plays a variety of repertoire from Prokofiev to Ligeti, and is also sexy. Overrated compared to who? Jesus? Not compared to any mere mortals!


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## hammeredklavier

Think of it this way; what if LL was white, like GG?


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## Rogerx

JTS said:


> Gave me a reason not to buy it. The other was Levit's playing.





JTS said:


> Yuja Wang? You are joking? Her playing is brilliant. And Lang Lang has only encouraged thousands of kids to play the piano.


This is hilarious, those two better then Levit.


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