# Do you have a language preference?



## mud (May 17, 2012)

For operatics, it can be difficult to distinguish words unless you know the language and the lyrics, but for musicality, do you prefer the sounds or flow of a certain language or dislike any singing because of the language itself?


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

None, really, other than a more than marked preference that a vocal work always be sung in the original language in which it was cast.

That from me is a massive understatement, since vocal works sung in translation is something about which I am near to a proselytizing zealot, and will reflexively make tirades against.

My argument for 'musicality' and sung language is the composer was thinking musically in regard to the language they were using in the song, cantata, opera, etc. Musicality is then bound to that selected language.

Singers have endless unresolved debate about which is the easiest language, or best, for musicality, but the truly great singers who have learned to sing in any number of languages have the technique and intelligence to get equally musical results from any of those - all a matter of technical adjustments.


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## Moira (Apr 1, 2012)

mud said:


> For operatics, it can be difficult to distinguish words unless you know the language and the lyrics, but for musicality, do you prefer the sounds or flow of a certain language or dislike any singing because of the language itself?


In South Africa we occasionally have oratorios and operas, and often have songs, in one of the vernacular languages which are rich with clicks (there are at least three, a dental click for C, a palatial click for Q and a labial click for X). One gets used to it. I can even identify which of the two main groups of languages are being sung - the kind of basic skill required for telling whether a song is being sung in French or Italian, but often no stylistic differences to assist.

Unlike PetrB, I don't mind if something is translated into English and sung in English, providing the diction is good. When it is in Italian or some other language I don't care about the diction. Joan Smotherland, sorry, Sutherland, was renowned for very poor diction, but it worried me not one whit. It would have if she had been singing in English.


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## mud (May 17, 2012)

I have found German to be repulsive more often than not. But there are some good songs of course. I think the language actually shapes the music.


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## mud (May 17, 2012)

Moira said:


> Unlike PetrB, I don't mind if something is translated into English and sung in English, providing the diction is good. When it is in Italian or some other language I don't care about the diction. Joan Smotherland, sorry, Sutherland, was renowned for very poor diction, but it worried me not one whit. It would have if she had been singing in English.


What I don't like about that is when it creates a conflict with listening to the original version. If I like the Italian version, I do not want to have an English version competing with it in my memory (especially if the lyrics are absurd in English).


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

I like German the best, followed by Italian. French is a hideous language.


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## mud (May 17, 2012)

I am mixed about the French language, some great songs, but it can get weird.


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## Moira (Apr 1, 2012)

mud said:


> What I don't like about that is when it creates a conflict with listening to the original version. If I like the Italian version, I do not want to have an English version competing with it in my memory (especially if the lyrics are absurd in English).


That's often because the lyrics in any language would be absurd.  The reality is that it is one of those human quirks. For some people being able to understand the language is key to liking the music. For others anything but the original is heresy.


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## mud (May 17, 2012)

Yeah, I guess in that case it's more about the foreign language being entirely musical and the translation being less so, and further distracting with meanings that are not as beautiful as the abstract words had been.


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## mud (May 17, 2012)

It almost seems strange that there is not a musical language for the voice which has no meaning beyond the sounds produced, as with other instruments.

Actually there must be, considering Ravel's Vocalise en Forma de Habanera, or Bachianas #5 by Villa-Lobos, which are purely musical in vocals. I like that language of course.

I guess that means most instrumental pieces could be arranged for voice too. That could be funny.


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## Moira (Apr 1, 2012)

mud said:


> It almost seems strange that there is not a musical language for the voice which has no meaning beyond the sounds produced, as with other instruments.
> 
> Actually there must be, considering Ravel's Vocalise en Forma de Habanera, or Bachianas #5 by Villa-Lobos, which are purely musical in vocals. I like that language of course.
> 
> I guess that means most instrumental pieces could be arranged for voice too. That could be funny.


Paradise Road, a 1997 movie starring Glenn Close and Cate Blanchett, directed by Bruce Beresford provided an example of exactly this.

Set in a Japanese concentration camp in World War II. The women form "vocal orchestra" -- a chorus that astounds audiences of fellow prisoners by performing hummed renditions of the work of Mozart, Dvorak, and Holst.

It is an exceptional movie and I understand that it was based on a true story. It is a story of hope and courage rather than a mindless tearjerker. I recommend it if you haven't seen it.


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

I think the translation used in Reginald Goodall's production of the ring pretty good and I have no problem with translated versions of operas in general. Usually the music is designed to fit the libretto, so it might be akin to using a Cagean prepared piano in a Rachmaninov piano concerto, but such experiments can be illuminating. An English version of Pagliacci I listened to recently revealed just what a ridiculously melodramatic work it is.


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## mud (May 17, 2012)

Moira said:


> Paradise Road, a 1997 movie starring Glenn Close and Cate Blanchett, directed by Bruce Beresford provided an example of exactly this.
> 
> Set in a Japanese concentration camp in World War II. The women form "vocal orchestra" -- a chorus that astounds audiences of fellow prisoners by performing hummed renditions of the work of Mozart, Dvorak, and Holst.
> 
> It is an exceptional movie and I understand that it was based on a true story. It is a story of hope and courage rather than a mindless tearjerker. I recommend it if you haven't seen it.


That sounds good...





Reminds me of nuns...


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

mud said:


> I have found German to be repulsive more often than not. But there are some good songs of course. I think the language actually shapes the music.


If you hear the great lieder singer Karl Erb singing german with his Swabian accent you should find it very beautiful.
I sometimes find remarks made on TC almost worth getting banned for.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Couchie said:


> I like German the best, *followed by Italian*. French is a hideous language.


You actually like something other than German now? Surprising.


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## Manok (Aug 29, 2011)

No, I don't even mind English translations of operas, though I prefer them in their original language. If I had to be pressed, Italian is what I am most used to as far as opera goes. Then German and other languages. I don't usually understand the languages and listen for the musicality of the work rather than the plot, though sometimes if I listen to the met on NPR I find the plot to be very interesting.


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## sabrina (Apr 26, 2011)

I HATE opera translations. I don't like English in opera, though this is my best foreign language. My favorite is, by far, Italian. I don't like German, but I love Mozart German operas. My German is quite basic, but good enough to understand bits in Die Zauberflotte. Wunderschön! But as much as I love Mozart operas, I almost hate Wagners operas. As far as I know all his opera is in German. Too boring for me...


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

I think the problem with English is that often the libretti can sound rather mundane. But poetic English, which you can find in Handel and Purcell, can sound quite glorious. Language of Shakespeare, y'know.

A couple of examples:






"O ruddier than the cherry,
O sweeter than the berry,
O nymph more bright
Than moonshine night,
Like kidlings blithe and merry.
Ripe as the melting cluster,
No lily has such lustre;
Yet hard to tame
As raging flame,
And fierce as storms that bluster!






"Where shall I fly? Where hide this guilty head?
Oh fatal error of misguided love!
Oh cruel Nessus, how art thou revenged!
Wretched I am! By me Alcides dies!
These impious hands have sent my injured lord
untimely to the shades!
Let me be mad!
Chain me, ye furies, to your iron beds.
And lash my guilty ghosts with whips of scorpions!

See! See! They come! Alecto with her snakes,
Megaera fell, and black Tisiphone!
See the dreadful sisters rise.
Their baneful presence taints the skies!
See the snaky whips they bear!
What yellings rend my tortured ear!"


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

I love German! And no, not just because of Wagner. The sound of the language, even being spoken, not sung, is absolutely beautiful to me. It can be soft and "warm-sounding" but at the same time very earnest and passionate and sincere. Italian translations of Wagner sound ugly to me and French ones even uglier.


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

Whatever tongue the composer wrote the work in...
Usually the rhythm of the language used is part of the compositional expression. Its rare something works well translated from the original. 
German Lieder is beautiful. Dont understand the criticism there. listening to Schwarzkopf, Ferrier Tauber or even Eva Marton sing in German should change anyone's mind. Italian of course is best! (Being half Italian I may be a little biased) French if fine. Ravel and Saint Saens and Berlioz managed beautifully! I feel a little uneasy listening to Opera in English though. Even when its an English language composition. Probably because Im not used to it! The Russian or the eastern European singers tend to get the worst marks for diction but I dont mind much, I have a liking for them anyway.



> a palatial click for Q and a _ labial_ click for X)


Erm... I had to look that one up I was worried for a second!


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

I like Greek.


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## sabrina (Apr 26, 2011)

Vesteralen said:


> I like Greek.


Όπερα στα Ελληνικά! Τι ελληνική όπερες σου αρέσει?


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## AndyS (Dec 2, 2011)

Used to have a preference for German, but I'm not that fussed these days, provided its not translated


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

sabrina said:


> Όπερα στα Ελληνικά! Τι ελληνική όπερες σου αρέσει?


Are there any? Please educate me.


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## ZombieBeethoven (Jan 17, 2012)

Thank you, mamascarlatti, for posting those examples. I am fairly new to opera and I have been quite disappointed by most English libretti for the reason you mention. Consequently, I have preferred any language other than my own native tongue. At least I could enjoy the music without being dulled by the silly words. Even a poor translation by either my weak knowledge of a few other languages or captions would allow my imagination to provide more poetic verbage. The videos that you posted have given me hope, however!


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

mamascarlatti said:


> Are there any? Please educate me.


Here is one:


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

I so dislike the sound of German that it took me literally years to accept Wagnerian operas until an opera buddy convinced me to look upon the voices simply like they are nothing more than another instrument of the orchestra. It finally worked and I was able to especially enjoy Parsifal and Gotterdammerung followed by Die Walkure, Lohengrin and Tristan & Isolde.

I am also annoyed with the English language in opera and require subtitles to be able to enjoy it. Vanessa being an example.

I love the sound of Italian, it is so musical, followed by French which I also find appealing. I love the Russian language as well as Czech, as in Jenufa.


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## Queen of the Nerds (Dec 22, 2014)

I don't like translated operas (except those rare operas that had different versions in different languages, which I understand).
My language preferences are:
1. Italian
2. French
3. Russian/ Czech
4. German and English (tie)


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

Given a composer I am passionate about, linguistic obstacles are surmountable, _but_, while I like to be open to language, I admit that I really do get more enjoyment out of a work when I can understand it. I seem to prefer vocal classical music sung in German  in which I am fluent. Luckily, there is no shortage of German language music! French has a very nice sound to it and I am also able to understand it, albeit not quite as well. I have located less French language music that I am interested in, but what I know is fabulous! Obviously, I have no difficulties with English, but I think it often sounds a bit plain. Perhaps that's because it is the day-to-day language I use most often? I don't know very much vocal classical music in English  I also enjoy the sound of Russian, but I don't understand more than yes and no. I know only a few Russian language works, but they are great favourites. Italian is a very popular language in vocal classical music and I don't understand more than a couple of words. I am open to Italian language classical music, but I always choose a German or French version, if the composer did more than one. I have a bit of residual dislike for sung Italian, likely due to inaccurate preconceptions about opera. I think I have two operas sung in Italian, as I am working on expanding my linguistic horizon


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Those who have read any of my posts will know that though I am generous to a fault, tolerant to a ludicrous degree as well as erudite, witty and encouraging, I am also a highly moral person. I prefer my language to be good. I frown upon bad language, and delicately turn my head away.
An occasional profanity may have passed my lips under extraordinary provocation. "Bother it," I may occasionally say, but I never use a big, big D. What never? Well, hardly ever.


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

Any language but English

This is an oddity about my preferences. For me, if I'm listening to a work with singers in it, I pay attention to everything except what the words are [I'll look them up later to see what they're singing about, and get a sense of the theme]. But if the work is in English, I'm not the best at telling exactly what they're singing, just the way the language is articulated makes it hard to hear what they're saying. So when there's a passage where I CAN tell what they're saying, I get distracted. Does that make sense? I focus too much on the words rather than the music.

One exception is Vaughan Williams' A Sea Symphony. Don't know why


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## Jorge Hereth (Aug 16, 2015)

mud said:


> Yeah, I guess in that case it's more about the foreign language being entirely musical and the translation being less so, and further distracting with meanings that are not as beautiful as the abstract words had been.


Libretti are never translations but rather transcriptions from one language to another, retaining the story, but changing the words a way they will accompany the music's compasses and rhythmics, and be singable in the target language. And since even Chinese poetry can be versed/transcribed into another language, why shouldn't it be done with opera libretti?

Listen to that one: Opera Aida na Russkom Yazyke
An old Soviet recording of Verdi's Aida in Russian, targeting to show people there's nothing elitist, bourgeois nor decadent about opera. Former Soviet Union attempted lots to turn opera popular and make people feel comfortable about it through recordings and presentations with the use of libretti transcribed into Russian - and other USSR languages - from the 1920s/30s on.
The idea was not new - Mozart had already advocated for operas in German in the 18th Century -, but at least the Soviets succeeded better with it than Imperial Brazil a Century earlier.

In the 1850s/60s Brazil's emperor Pedro II invested a little fortune in the _Imperial Academia de Música e Ópera Nacional_, founded in 1857 to incentivize the composition of operas by Brazilian composers with their libretti - original or transcribed did not matter - in Brazilian Portuguese. But the _Imperial Academia de Música e Ópera Nacional_ bankrupted and had to close their doors in 1864, for:
1. Only the most liberals among Brazil's ultra-conservative opera audiences, which consisted of aristocracy and high bourgeoisie, would tolerate another language rather than Italian for operas to be legitimately be sung in;
2. The target public of the _Imperial Academia de Música e Ópera Nacional_ project, urban middle class, wouldn't dare to go against the dogmas of aristocracy and high bourgeoisie, not even with the emperor himself generously sponsoring Brazil's Portuguese as an opera language. And why should they, since the same aristocracy and high bourgeoisie were succeeding in bullying and impeding the emperor's plans to abolish Brazil's two mayor problems at that time, slavery and capital punishment?
3. Brazil's society at that time including slavery, targeting general population with the _Imperial Academia de Música e Ópera Nacional_ project would be naturally impossible.
4. At that time, music could not be recorded yet, and Arthur Napoleão publisher's music sheet downsizing for piano and chant would not be the same thing.
Result: in 2015 now, 151 years after the _Imperial Academia de Música e Ópera Nacional_ had to close their doors, 127 years after the abolition of slavery (May 13, 1888), 126 years after the proclamation of the Republic (November 15, 1889), and 125 years after the abolition of capital punishment, opera has widely remained stuff for upper class Brazilians, and only free downloads from the internet have smoothly started to change that in recent years. But most of Brazil's upper class opera lovers continue not tolerating Brazil's Portuguese as a language opera's might be legitimately sung in...


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## Jorge Hereth (Aug 16, 2015)

Since we're all human beings, we have languages. We do not all speak one same language in our daily lives the way we do here at TC, but we speak in our languages in our daily lives. So what?

Once I read something Wagner composed at least one opera upon an original libretto in French while he was in France. Don't know if it's true, but I find it pretty likely. Where I know: Antônio Carlos Gomes (1836-1896), what he composed in Brazil he did it on libretti in Brazil Portuguese, what he composed in Italy he did it on libretti in Italian. The same for Henrique Alves de Mesquita (1830-1906) about Brazil Portuguese and French.

I personally don't see why an opera's language should matter so much...


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Jorge Hereth said:


> I personally don't see why an opera's language should matter so much...


Indeed. There are a couple of issues. One is mere subjective preference. Almost everyone agrees Italian is particularly mellifluous and easy to sing, with its long vowels and liquid consonants. I have musician friends who respectively consider French and German ugly (not the same ones) - French because it is nasal, German because it is gutteral.
Then there is the technical difficulty of some languages - English presents more demands on the singer vocally, for example. This is usually no problem for composers in their native language, but can (only can) make translation challenging. And, of course, any translation faces numerous challenges besides singability. 
Last week I went to an English version of Maria Stuarda in which the libretto was awful because the text often didn't match the musical phrase, inelegantly highlighting the wrong word(s). 
But for those who argue against English in opera, the defence can mount Peter Grimes, Turn of the Screw, or any of Britten's operas, not to mention Dido and Aeneas.


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## Jorge Hereth (Aug 16, 2015)

I never found a language beautiful nor ugly; we have to remind ourselves, when it's not our own language or still if we speak it or not, it will always be the or at least a useful language to other human beings.

Here a contemporary Mexican opera in Náhuatl (= ancient Aztec), but the video has subs in Spanish:





And you mentioning Maria Stuarda, or Mary Stuart, here the opera _Maria Tudor_ by Brazilian composer Carlos Gomes (1836-1896) from 1879; language is Italian, since he composed it in Italy and used a libretto in Italian started by Emilio Praga (1839-1875) and Arroigo Boito (1842-1918), continued by Ferdinando Fontana (1850-1919) and concluded by Angelo Zanardini (1820-1893), and the video has been made at National Opera in Sofia, Bulgaria, with both Brazilian and Bulgarian singers (with subs in Brazil Portuguese):


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

As long as people are polite it don't care what language they speak.
Only vile languages writhes / speakers are very bad .


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## Jorge Hereth (Aug 16, 2015)

Pugg said:


> As long as people are polite it don't care what language they speak.
> Only vile languages writhes / speakers are very bad .


You got my point / Jy het my verstaan, Pugg


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Steatopygous said:


> I have musician friends who respectively consider French and German ugly (not the same ones) - French because it is nasal, German because it is gutteral.


I have found that people who consider French to be particularly beautiful, usually cannot stand the sound of German, and the other way around. These two languages seem to be the opposite "poles" of linguistic beauty.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

It's curious that people think of German as "guttural" when in fact it has only one guttural sound, the hard "ch" as heard after "a," "o," and "u," and even then only when those letters have no umlaut. The the throaty French "r" is scarcely less guttural and is heard far more often. I've heard people say that German is "ugly," but I can only think that these folks have been watching animated cartoons or films of Nazi rallies rather than listening to great actors or singers. Composers such as Schubert and Wagner knew how to exploit the beauty and expressiveness of the language, and the greater proportion of consonant sounds as compared to, say, Italian is no impediment to singers with good vocal technique. 

I think the numerous nasal sounds in French are more difficult for singers, at least for non-natives, than anything in German. But the language that sounds really challenging to my ear is Russian. I sang in several languages as a young man, but never in Russian. Maybe it's easier than it sounds.


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

Woodduck said:


> It's curious that people think of German as "guttural" when in fact it has only one guttural sound, the hard "ch" as heard after "a," "o," and "u," and even then only when those letters have no umlaut. The the throaty French "r" is scarcely less guttural and is heard far more often. I've heard people say that German is "ugly," but I can only think that these folks have been watching animated cartoons or films of Nazi rallies rather than listening to great actors or singers. Composers such as Schubert and Wagner knew how to exploit the beauty and expressiveness of the language, and the greater proportion of consonant sounds as compared to, say, Italian is no impediment to singers with good vocal technique.
> 
> I think the numerous nasal sounds in French are more difficult for singers, at least for non-natives, than anything in German. But the language that sounds really challenging to my ear is Russian. I sang in several languages as a young man, but never in Russian. Maybe it's easier than it sounds.


Overall you're right, but a bit of irrelevant nitpicking:
Nowadays the German r is guttural too in most accents, so that might make spoken German a bit more guttural than French perhaps. However I hear they prefer the more Spanish type of trilled r in opera singing. But it's true that both languages contain a significant amount of guttural sounds, so it's a bit strange to dislike German for that reason while liking French.

This would be probably the appropriate time to ask: Is the h sound in your Wihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihih pronounced like a normal h sound or more like voiceless palatal fricative, like ch in german before i or e?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Dim7 said:


> This would be probably the appropriate time to ask: Is the h sound in your Wihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihih pronounced like a normal h sound or more like voiceless palatal fricative, like ch in german before i or e?


It depends on whether the muzak in the stable is oatonal or haytonal.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

brotagonist said:


> Given a composer I am passionate about, linguistic obstacles are surmountable, _but_, while I like to be open to language, I admit that I really do get more enjoyment out of a work when I can understand it. I seem to prefer vocal classical music sung in German  in which I am fluent. Luckily, there is no shortage of German language music! French has a very nice sound to it and I am also able to understand it, albeit not quite as well. I have located less French language music that I am interested in, but what I know is fabulous! Obviously, I have no difficulties with English, but I think it often sounds a bit plain. Perhaps that's because it is the day-to-day language I use most often? I don't know very much vocal classical music in English  I also enjoy the sound of Russian, but I don't understand more than yes and no. I know only a few Russian language works, but they are great favourites. Italian is a very popular language in vocal classical music and I don't understand more than a couple of words. I am open to Italian language classical music, but I always choose a German or French version, if the composer did more than one. I have a bit of residual dislike for sung Italian, likely due to inaccurate preconceptions about opera. I think I have two operas sung in Italian, as I am working on expanding my linguistic horizon


I am not fluent in German but the fact that I studied German in school and know it somewhat I have a certain preference for opera in German I often notice if I listen to an opera in German it becomes easier to understand what is sung over time. My native language is rather similar to German and Englisgh even more so that helps too.
I had a period when I tried to learn French for I don´t know what reason but I have not listened that much on French opera but it is of at least little help. It also makes me understand a little bit of opera in Italian.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Sloe said:


> My native language is rather similar to German and Englisgh even more so that helps too.


Let me guess... Dutch?


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

Woodduck said:


> It depends on whether the muzak in the stable is oatonal or haytonal.


Okay. I'm also confused about the haytonic function of the Wihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihih. Its meaning is a bit ambiguous don't you think? Is it true that it eventually lead to the breakdown of haytonality?


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Let me guess... Dutch?


I said English is even more similar to German.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Sloe said:


> I said English is even more similar to German.


Right, but you also said your native language is similar to German, and it is not English... ah, whatever...


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

The ENO English Mastersinger last year had a wonderful translation, even if I still couldn't comprehend the sung words without the surtitles! Thereby negating their modus operandi at a stroke, but there you are!

Whilst I can understand people prefering to hear favourite Puccini arias in their original, I don't think anyone is being greatly deprived when hearing (for example) Jenufa in English instead of Czech.

Yes, any language will do for me as long as they're singing, not recitativing or speaking!


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Sloe said:


> I am not fluent in German but the fact that I studied German in school and know it somewhat I have a certain preference for opera in German I often notice if I listen to an opera in German it becomes easier to understand what is sung over time. My native language is rather similar to German and Englisgh even more so that helps too.


In the original booklets to the Goodall Ring Cycle in English, there are some quotes from German music critics where they discussed the translation being used and made the comment that English listeners now could probably understand more of Wagner's operas than do current German speakers when listening to Wagner's somewhat archaic German!

One language that I find fascinating to listen to is Finnish ... and no, I don't understand anything ... and I am convinced that some of the non-Finnish singers that I have heard, don't either!


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Becca said:


> In the original booklets to the Goodall Ring Cycle in English, there are some quotes from German music critics where they discussed the translation being used and made the comment that English listeners now could probably understand more of Wagner's operas than do current German speakers when listening to Wagner's somewhat archaic German!
> 
> One language that I find fascinating to listen to is Finnish ... and no, I don't understand anything ... and I am convinced that some of the non-Finnish singers that I have heard, don't either!


Some operas are easier to understand than others I think The Flying Dutchman is very easy to understand.
The only opera in Finnish I have seen is this one and the only word I understand is vallesmanni.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Becca said:


> In the original booklets to the Goodall Ring Cycle in English, there are some quotes from German music critics where they discussed the translation being used and made the comment that English listeners now could probably understand more of Wagner's operas than do current German speakers when listening to Wagner's somewhat archaic German!


Oh! I have that set but I hadn't read that comment. No wonder I (as a non-German speaker) struggle with the librettos!

Recently I was making a similar point to a friend about translated literature. While the natives of a given language plough through their 15th-19th century literature, those reading in foreign translation enjoy the work in modern idiomatic style.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Don Fatale said:


> Oh! I have that set but I hadn't read that comment. No wonder I (as a non-German speaker) struggle with the librettos!
> 
> Recently I was making a similar point to a friend about translated literature. While the natives of a given language plough through their 15th-19th century literature, those reading in foreign translation enjoy the work in modern idiomatic style.


Not all the time some literature have old translations and languages and spellings changes to a different extend over time.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Sloe said:


> Not all the time some literature have old translations and languages and spellings changes to a different extend over time.


It's a trade-off I guess. The native speakers get the benefit of experiencing the author's actual words, whereas the translated readers may find the work easier to read particularly where the translation is recent.


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> But the language that sounds really challenging to my ear is Russian. I sang in several languages as a young man, but never in Russian. Maybe it's easier than it sounds.


I deliberately didn't mention Russian. Not only is it unsingable, but I think it is unspeakable. I think Russians themselves communicate some other way, telepathy perhaps, and the language is a giant trick on outsiders. Its only use, so far as I can see, is to excite Jamie Lee Turner in A Fish Called Wanda - but that is certainly useful.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Becca said:


> In the original booklets to the Goodall Ring Cycle in English, there are some quotes from German music critics where they discussed the translation being used and made the comment that English listeners now could probably understand more of Wagner's operas than do current German speakers when listening to Wagner's somewhat archaic German!


That is strange. I am not a native speaker, and I made my first acquaintance with Wagner's librettos almost at the same time I started learning modern German. It is somewhat archaic, yes, but never to the point of being unintelligible.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Steatopygous said:


> I deliberately didn't mention Russian. Not only is it unsingable, but I think it is unspeakable. I think Russians themselves communicate some other way, telepathy perhaps, and the language is a giant trick on outsiders. Its only use, so far as I can see, is to excite Jamie Lee Turner in A Fish Called Wanda - but that is certainly useful.


And that is strange too. For the greater part of my life I have been speaking something... I think it must have been some _language_. But now it turns out all this time I have been communicating telepathically. That is quite an amazing discovery.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> It depends on whether the muzak in the stable is oatonal or haytonal.


Or even alfalfaeatoric- because even horse stables can be Cagey.


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## Jorge Hereth (Aug 16, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> ...
> 
> I think the numerous nasal sounds in French are more difficult for singers, at least for non-natives, than anything in German. But the language that sounds really challenging to my ear is Russian. I sang in several languages as a young man, but never in Russian. Maybe it's easier than it sounds.


Yes, the numerous nasal sounds French has, Portuguese - specially our Brazilian Portuguese - has them either; and so has Polish. By the way, have you ever paid attention to American English? It's just a short way behind in nasal sounds. And now, take Chinese...

German has some special sounds it widely shares with French, Finnish, Dutch, Afrikaans and Turkish, and Hungarian has the same special sounds a bit more diversified. So what? A native speaking audience should forgive a singer his/her pronunciation errors, fore in the end opera is much more than about pronunciation details the same way we pretend not noting them when talking to a foreigner who's trying to communicate with us in our respective languages.

And in singing foreign language accents never appear too much, should they ever appear.

I remember one of Brazil's most played pop artists in 1983 was a British immigrant called Ritchie, and his song _Menina Veneno_ (= Poison Girl) has become an evergreen of Brazilian pop music since then. Him singing, nobody ever doubted he might not be Brazilian; his sound was so purely Brazilian pop! It was only found out when he gave his first TV interviews, speaking with a heavily charged British accent - but the voice was clearly his - that he was British. He left clear he was neither from Northern Paraná nor Eastern Minas Gerais - areas where English speaking communities persist -, but a British immigrant. And his Portuguese spoken was not very fluent.

Despite we're discussing an opera issue here, since it's about singing and language, please permit me to show you all his 1983 album - it's worthwile - to you; the nasal sounds he showed unable to pronounce when interviewed, he sung them accent-free in a way nobody would ever imagine he might not be a native Portuguese-speaking Brazilian (_Menina Veneno_ is song nº 5 at 14:54):





On the other hand, French chansonnier Gilbert Bécaud sung inumerous songs of his in German versions, despite he had never learned German but read the lyrics of his songs from illuminated posters transcribed into a German in French phonetics when on stage in Germany or recording. He would not be able to order a whiskey in German. But: him singing, despite you'll hear he's not German, his sounds in German have been considered perfect, just slightly revealing a foreign origin (well, as far as I could experience myself, Germans don't use to care too much about foreign accents); please allow me to show you a sample:

Gilbert Bécaud: _So viele Züge geh'n_




Beautiful song, perfect, Gilbert Bécaud not knowing how to speak in German, but I guess no German singer could ever be able to perform that one any better.

And now another pop example - please permit me - by Brazilian singer and band vocalist Fernanda Takai. Now I'm gonna show you the video first:
_Fernanda Takai: Kobune_:




Yes, you heard it right, language is Japanese! She's a Nippon-descendant and she's fluent in Brazil Portuguese and (Brazil) Japanese. The video you've seen, she rode that same one twice, using the same one for once singing _O Barquinho_ in Portuguese, once singing _Kobune_ in Japanese. Strange: it flopped in Brazilian Portuguese in Brazil and at the same time it became a success in Japanese in Japan, and nowadays she only sings it in Japanese also here in Brazil.


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## Jorge Hereth (Aug 16, 2015)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Or even alfalfaeatoric- because even horse stables can be Cagey.


It's just an issue of how you care for your horse stables, Marshallin Blair....


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## Jorge Hereth (Aug 16, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> ... these folks have been watching animated cartoons or films of Nazi rallies rather than listening to great actors or singers ...


As a matter of a fact, aftr 1945 nobody worldwide dared to play Wagner anymore. It was right in Israel it was first realized things couldn't go on that way. The whole world knew Wagner had been an anti-Semite, but not a way to be taken seriously the way the Nazi's antisemitism had to be taken. Israelis realized it had to be them to re-socialize Wagner, and they did it. The first symphonic orchestra to play Wagner after 1945, it was an Israeli one - Haifa, if I'm right - playing only the instrumental parts, but which performance gave Wagner his due credentials back.

Right Israelis had remarked how the Nazis has hijacked Wagner, and had been the first ones to realize the sh.. Cosima Wagner's actions were worthwile...


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

SiegendesLicht said:


> And that is strange too. For the greater part of my life I have been speaking something... I think it must have been some _language_. But now it turns out all this time I have been communicating telepathically. That is quite an amazing discovery.


I am always pleased to help. I think you are the victim of mass hallucination, but that is no problem because your English is excellent.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Dim7 said:


> Okay. I'm also confused about the haytonic function of the Wihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihih. Its meaning is a bit ambiguous don't you think? Is it true that it eventually lead to the breakdown of haytonality?


Wihihihihihihihihihihihihihihih! What an amusing question!

I'm afraid you are confused. Haytonality could not have broken down. "Haytonality" is the erroneous but popular and maddeningly persistent designation for the style of stable muzak that resulted from the so-called breakdown of oatonality. There is in fact no such animal as haytonality. As a matter of historical record, the term was first applied by muzakally ignorant horses to the crude ditties sung by muzakally untutored ostlers in the 19th century as they shoveled manure and picked straw out of their hair, and when ostlers were replaced in the late 20th century by certified stable maintenance technicians employing electric manure vacuums and carrying boomboxes, their inordinately heavy metal muzak was equally baffling to the average equine ear and was branded haytonal as well.

The truth, of course, is that all stable muzak is oatonal, but there are still very few horses who will believe it. I find Clydesdales particularly stubborn about this: good, upstanding working class animals, they know what they like, and they just whinny when they hear discordant stuff that they say their foals could have written. I have tried repeatedly to educate my fellows and make them aware of the nonsystemic, nonfunctional, nonhierarchical, infinitesimally brief, and therefore highly expressive oatonal centers with which modernist stable muzak pierces their pointy little ears, but they just bridle at the suggestion that they lack horse sense about muzak.

In the end I find it best just to give my tail a flick and forget about it. It's important to me to maintain my equinimity.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Just out of curiosity, when discussing the haytonality - oatonaility spectrum, where does banality fit in?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Becca said:


> Just out of curiosity, when discussing the haytonality - oatonaility spectrum, where does banality fit in?


Ah me! There's no end to the need for education on this subject. I've been around this track so many times that I really do get horse talking about it, so please pardon me if bridle, snort, and stamp my foot at the repeated raising of this misconception.

Since haytonality is not a real thing but only a name for music horses do not understand, there can be no spectrum. _All music consisting of oatones has oatonal centers and is oatonal._

As for banality, it is not on any spectrum. It is everywhere, it has always been everywhere, and that situation seems stable.


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