# What are your views on perfection?



## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Are you a perfectionist? Should composers be perfectionists?


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

A good thread


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

In order to actually contribute something I thought I would mention a couple of thoughts.

The more I think about Beethoven's 9th the more I am convinced that it is not only the greatest piece of music ever written, but that it is the greatest piece of music that ever will be written and not only that, but that it _defines_ greatness.

Of course a composer should be a perfectionist. That doesn't stop him/her writing lots of music - but I am against the wishy-washy individualism that seems to reign at the moment in certain circles of composers... The psuedo-mystic significance attached to a composer find his/her _voice_ - an individual voice which will distinguish them from everyone else. Individuality (which is only a step away from originality) seems to be prized over quality. I hasten to add I have neither before anyone fires that one at me.


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## Lunasong (Mar 15, 2011)

"Perfection is achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away"
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

_As they created intricate geometric patterns out of thousands of tiny beads, Native American women would intentionally string a wrong-colored bead into an otherwise perfect pattern. This was called the spirit bead. The spirit bead was placed in an otherwise flawless piece of art as an act of humility, a way of recognizing the inherent imperfection of humans. Presuming that a human could create something perfect would be an affront to the true perfection of the gods.

Attempting to create an object of total perfection has always been considered bad luck. Ojibwa tradition also states that the Great Spirit can only transcend a piece of art through this flaw, and thus the misplaced spirit bead provides a break through which God can enter._

I'm not an artist or craftsman, so my goal in manufacturing is to only produce to a level (quality, quantity, and features) for which a customer is willing to pay, or is required by regulations. Everything else is waste. Perfection for me is delivering on time, in full, at a profit.
It's definitely a different mindset, but maybe one held by pop composers.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Ramako said:


> Of course a composer should be a perfectionist. That doesn't stop him/her writing lots of music - but I am against the wishy-washy individualism that seems to reign at the moment in certain circles of composers... The psuedo-mystic significance attached to a composer find his/her _voice_ - an individual voice which will distinguish them from everyone else. Individuality (which is only a step away from originality) seems to be prized over quality. I hasten to add I have neither before anyone fires that one at me.


I am in agreement with this paragraph completely.

All the same, I admire many 18th century composers who did not write to achieve perfection 99% of the time or more. They wrote clever and interesting music up to a certain STANDARD and I think that at a certain standard, there is much enjoyable and enlightening variety to be had before one goes looking for perfection.

And I do think that absolute perfection is unattainable, and am not sure what it even means, but those that have been more perfectionistic with a number of their works have produced great things that are beyond interesting to the point of emotionally moving. But I don't envy the composer who has to have it perfect with the majority of his works, as progress must be slow and tiresome(Brahms) and the results, no matter how great, will often be unsatisfactory.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

I believe absolute perfection to be unattainable, but one can get pretty darn close, and that's what's worth going for, especially in music. A brilliant performance will always have some imperfections, heard or unheard, but it was still brilliant, was it not? It had something like a taste of perfection, so it was still entirely worth it. However, I don't like the phrase "unattainable ideal" in the poll, it sounds too futile. I'm a realist, but I'm not a pessimist, so although one can say we should strive for something unattainable just for the point of it, that's missing the point of it _for me_. If I am striving for absolute perfection, I will forever be unhappy, thus that can't be what motivates me. I don't strive for something unattainable, I strive for something that _is _attainable, which is the brilliant and joyous playing of music, even with slight mistakes, and I know from experience that it is indeed possible.


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## EricABQ (Jul 10, 2012)

Cool game. Especially after a few cold ones.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

It's interesting that there are two Greek words which can be translated "perfect" - one which means being mended or setting a broken joint and one which means complete.

I think one comes before the other. The efforts to be put back together result ultimately in completion. In that sense, I believe in perfection as a process. 

As humans create, they reflect this process. I've quoted somewhere before that Sibelius described a symphony as a statement of faith at various stages of life. 

So I agree; artists should be perfectionists at every stage of life. The process is as important as the achievement.


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

Wagner, of course!


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

I chose option two because it resembled the Christian perspective.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Lukecash12 said:


> I chose option two because it resembled the Christian perspective.


Hum, more like the moralistic perspective.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Hum, more like the moralistic perspective.


Right, I'm not denying that. I simply chose it because it does resemble the Christian perspective. It certainly doesn't mirror it.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Lukecash12 said:


> Right, I'm not denying that. I simply chose it because it does resemble the Christian perspective. It certainly doesn't mirror it.


Just clarifying though, Christianity isn't moralism. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't know true Christianity...


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

I tried perfection, didn't care for it.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Just clarifying though, Christianity isn't moralism. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't know true Christianity...


Precisely.


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## MaestroViolinist (May 22, 2012)

I picked "Perfection is an unattainable ideal that we should all try to attain" because it sounded funny. (Joking) 

Seriously though, I don't think true perfection exists, people always make mistakes, though we should all try to do the best we can.


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

I wonder, whether the Latin language, from which 'perfection' is being derived (_perfectio_), ever was spoken _live_ or that is was only used officially for written documents (while the everyday Roman-in-the-street just spoke & sang a lively version of Italian with his neighbour). Latin is a dead language, that perhaps never ever has been a live language. That said, what bothers me in 'perfection' is: deadishness, constructedness, cleanness....


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

More wrong has been done in the world in the name of perfection than for any other doctrine.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Hilltroll72 said:


> I tried perfection, didn't care for it.


Darn it,didn't I think you were perfect--another ideal shattered!!


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

quack said:


> More wrong has been done in the world in the name of perfection than for any other doctrine.


Go on specify! But if you aim for perfection you might hit 90%,if you aim for 90% you might hit----and so on and so on.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

moody said:


> Darn it,didn't I think you were perfect--another ideal shattered!!


Well, some folks tell me that I haven't shed one aspect of perfection, being a perfect ****. Some of the remnants of the trial period have been difficult to get away from.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

TxllxT said:


> I wonder, whether the Latin language, from which 'perfection' is being derived (_perfectio_), ever was spoken _live_ or that is was only used officially for written documents (while the everyday Roman-in-the-street just spoke & sang a lively version of Italian with his neighbour). Latin is a dead language, that perhaps never ever has been a live language. That said, what bothers me in 'perfection' is: deadishness, constructedness, cleanness....


It was, in fact, spoken live. The Italian language didn't exist at all until after Rome had fallen.


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

Lukecash12 said:


> It was, in fact, spoken live. The Italian language didn't exist at all until after Rome had fallen.


I think on the contrary that Latin itself 'suffered' from the ideal of perfection and never was used on the forum / in the streets. Exactly the strife for perfection set Latin apart on an idealised level, far away from the common man (who spoke Italian). This is for example being reflected in the widespread medieval opinion, that the Holy Book *must* have been written in Latin. The Renaissance caused here an enormous breakthrough, when scholars started to acknowledge the fact, that the Biblical original was not in Latin but delivered to us in the quite 'imperfect' language of Hebrew.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Lukecash12 said:


> It was, in fact, spoken live. The Italian language didn't exist at all until after Rome had fallen.


Seems like I read somewhere (not so long ago either) that 'vulgar' Latin was coexistent with 'classic' Latin - but in Spain instead of Italy. My powers of recollection have been suspect for awhile though.


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2012)

The option I want isn't there...perfection is possible, and we should all strive for it.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

Couchie said:


> *What are your views on perfection?*





> *I wish for, if I ever wish so deep-
> Do easily too- when I say perfectly*(...)
> *Well, less is more, Lucrezia: I am judged.
> There burns a truer light of God in them,
> ...


Pretty much this,


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## Krummhorn (Feb 18, 2007)

Amateurs practice until they get it right ... 

Professionals practice until they can't get it wrong!

I came up with that phrase years back ... and have it posted on the organ console at the church where I am employed.

Prefection is achieved when we, as the performer, feel the music will be appreciated by others. 

I also believe that I will never reach total 'perfection' ... even after 50+ years as a professional organist/recitalist/accompanist, I am still learning in an attempt to achieve 'perfection'. The day I stop learning, is the day I fall over dead. 

Kh ♫


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## Wandering (Feb 27, 2012)

Perfection = Delusion

To _justly_ paraphrase that Danish guy, *'What matters is what matter to you.'*


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

I don't know what the hell perfection is supposed to be! All the makeup companies that show their ads on tv say that smooth skin without blemishes on women is perfection but I think that some blemishes is sexy. So are they right or am I right? Goddamn perfection! You're always being so confusing! :scold:


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

violadude said:


> I don't know what the hell perfection is supposed to be! All the makeup companies that show their ads on tv say that smooth skin without blemishes on women is perfection but I think that some blemishes is sexy. So are they right or am I right? Goddamn perfection! You're always being so confusing! :scold:


Hey, for a whippersnapper, you are feminine-beauty-perceptive. There must be 'character' lines, including 'laugh' lines. The body must show evidence of having been lived in.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

*What are your views on perfection?

*Pretty much as it's always been. I offer free consultation for. :tiphat:


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

My view of Perfection was certainly far too expensive for what it is. On top of the natural obstructions like trees, I have to look at that monstrosity of a house with 70s architecture. But most importantly, Perfection is not as pristine as it was in that photo, which was taken back in the 60s.


Har har har.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Ramako said:


> ...The more I think about Beethoven's 9th the more I am convinced that it is not only the greatest piece of music ever written, but that it is the greatest piece of music that ever will be written and not only that, but that it _defines_ greatness.
> 
> I am against the wishy-washy individualism that seems to reign at the moment in certain circles of composers... The psuedo-mystic significance attached to a composer find his/her _voice_ - an individual voice which will distinguish them from everyone else. Individuality (which is only a step away from originality) seems to be prized over quality. I hasten to add I have neither before anyone fires that one at me.


To the Beethoven -- I'm astonished, really, that you do not even sense that the best of Beethoven is because it is from a composer 'with a unique voice,' and the reason so many love it is all its imperfections, work from a genius who struggled mightily and willfully with the very materials of the craft to make it as good as it could be.

It is that genius AND the Genius' struggle we simultaneously hear, love and admire -- collectively, what makes us feel they are 'perfect' is those conflicted elements, their very imperfection -- however glorious it may seem, the average Joe can hear 'he was one of us.' 
(Some are far less than interested in hearing an artist's personal struggle or their struggle with the materials within the work itself, to make the equally valid counterargument....)

The 'personal voice' thingy:
Using tricks or gimmicks, assuming an odd stance just for the sake of it in order to stand out in a crowd is of course silly and has nothing to do with genuine well-crafted works or real talent. That is "Schtick." 
However, if your music is virtually indistinguishable from the music of one or more other composers, what, tell, was the need to write it in the first place and why should anyone be interested to hear it?

Perhaps you've been in some environment where that 'unique' facet has been exaggerated or pushed to a degree where you are sick of hearing it, but really, forget the concept of 'unique marketable personality' -- forget that for one moment -- and ask yourself if you do not think your music should have something distinct about it, i.e. you have made it 'yours' rather than having made something so generic as to be interchangeable with pieces by others.


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