# Singing and Dancing on the screen



## Guest

Some of the most amazing artistry is found in American film from the era of the Busby Berkeley musicals of the 1930s right through to the last great musicals from the MGM Freed Unit (circa late 1950s).

Here is just one such example; Marge and Gower Champion dancing to the fabulous music of Jerome Kern - with a superb and full orchestration by Conrad Salinger which really captures the idiom. Notice the confined space these two famous dancers use to weave their magic. And lyrics by Oscar Hammerstein, 11 (though there is "Bill" with lyrics by PG Wodehouse):


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## Phil loves classical

I was always a fan of the tap dance. Here's probably my favourite:


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## Guest

So very reminiscent of 'Bojangles' Robinson and Shirley Temple!! Surely it's a straight steal of that!!


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## Rogerx

Good Morning" - Singin' in the Rain (1952)


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## Rogerx

"Singin' in the Rain" (Title Song) 1952 - Gene Kelly
Just my two cents


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## Guest

Absolutely magnificent; "*Singing in the Rain*", "The Bandwagon" and "American in Paris" set the benchmarks for artistry in singing and dancing. Gene Kelly was involved in two of these. I just love that fluid crane shot which swings upwards and over Kelly as he uses the full space of the set while twirling that umbrella at the side with the orchestra in full flourish. For that I credit the finesse of director Stanley Donen and cinematographer Harold Rossen: a single take from the moment the water is coming out of the drain pipe to the edit of Kelly back on the sidewalk. Ergo, the moving frame which completely complements the rhythm of the piece and at the service of the action.

Also, of course, these RKO musicals of the 1930s - but not to the extent of the integrated musical: the elegance and sophistication of this is amazing. And to think; the orchestra (a typical dance band) was sitting right there behind the camera as this was still the early era of sound film:






Sensuous and provocative sequence; with the tuba setting the pulse and rhythm like a heartbeat. The two of them enmeshed in a seductive dance. It doesn't get much better. Do watch Astaire's eyes; he doesn't take them off his partner Rogers. (Sadly director Mark Sandrich didn't live past age 44.)


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## Guest

Fast forward to 1957 and the music of Cole Porter for the film "*Silk Stockings*" (the musical version of "Ninotchka") directed by Rouben Mamoulian and with the fabulous dancing of Cyd Charisse. This was a deeply satirical film about Russia made during the Cold War: choreography by Hermes Pan and orchestration by Conrad Salinger (uncredited...grrrr!).


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## JAS

You mean that people don't just break out into dancing and singing, with full orchestral accompaniment, in real life? (I guess I can just take all of these people off of my payroll.)

Outside of musicals, it is often amusing (and usually a bit embarrassing) to see dance numbers that were inserted into films as a kind of artistic statement. Frequently, these rely on very modern ideas about dance (even if they are set in the past), and they tend to be very self conscious. (Too often, they are performed by people who really don't seem to have a knack for dancing.)


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## mikeh375

Rogerx said:


> "Singin' in the Rain" (Title Song) 1952 - Gene Kelly
> Just my two cents


Kelly had a stinking cold during that scene shoot iirc.


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## JAS

Christabel said:


> Some of the most amazing artistry is found in American film from the era of the Busby Berkeley musicals of the 1930s right through to the last great musicals from the MGM Freed Unit (circa late 1950s).


Berkeley in particular often relied on camera tricks that could not really be appreciated by an audience if they saw dancing on the stage, or numbers that were so elaborate that they really only work on film. I presume that they were trying to offer something that you could not just get in a regular theater experience. (I believe that I am correct in thinking that Berkeley did not originate this idea, but certainly made the most of it. He also tends to stretch out a number with long parts that are very repetitious of a single phrase, which can get tiresome, but they can be an eyeful if one has an appreciation of the period in which they were made.)


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## Guest

JAS said:


> Berkeley in particular often relied on camera tricks that could not really be appreciated by an audience if they saw dancing on the stage, or numbers that were so elaborate that they really only work on film. I presume that they were trying to offer something that you could not just get in a regular theater experience. (I believe that I am correct in thinking that Berkeley did not originate this idea, but certainly made the most of it. He also tends to stretch out a number with long parts that are very repetitious of a single phrase, which can get tiresome, but they can be an eyeful if one has an appreciation of the period in which they were made.)


Berkeley was in the military and familiar with precision formations and drills. I'm pretty sure he did innovate with those musicals and he had a cinematic eye for movement and display. I think many of them are straight kitsch and repetitious, yes, but they distracted people from the misery of their lives during the Depression. However, I think this sequence must have gone right to the heart - and it was influenced by German Expressionism and very clever:






(Once upon a time people were concerned about the welfare of the poor.)

Here's a restored sequence in the pre-code "Footlight Parade", with James Cagney in an early dancing role. Lloyd Bacon directed the film and it must have been considered pretty daring!!


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## Joe B

Here's a singing/dancing scene from a Disney movie that totally cracks me up:


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## Guest

Here's a complex 'dance' sequence created and directed by Busby Berkeley in "*Footlight Parade*", 1933. I have wondered how he did this, but it must have been graphically conceived before being 'choreographed'. And the overhead camera shots would have been rather risky, suspended from height as they were. Not forgetting that sound film was only 6 years old when this was made; it's remote from our experience but this would have presented problems as dramatized in "Singing' in the Rain" in the 1950s. I'm fairly certain that when "Footlights" was made sound on disc technology had been replaced by sound on film; this was a MAJOR innovation.






For those with an interest in film history here is the opening title sequence of "Footlight Parade". The film has a silly plot and is pretty boring but the musical numbers are the important element.






Through the miracle of film restoration we're able to view these important socio-cultural 'documents' for many more generations. Director Lloyd Bacon died at 65 in 1955 - quite a long life for many in the film industry in the earlier years. Cinematographer George Barnes died at 60 years of age just two years earlier.


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## Phil loves classical

Christabel said:


> Here's a complex 'dance' sequence created and directed by Busby Berkeley in "*Footlight Parade*", 1933. I have wondered how he did this, but it must have been graphically conceived before being 'choreographed'. And the overhead camera shots would have been rather risky, suspended from height as they were. Not forgetting that sound film was only 6 years old when this was made; it's remote from our experience but this would have presented problems as dramatized in "Singing' in the Rain" in the 1950s. I'm fairly certain that when "Footlights" was made sound on disc technology had been replaced by sound on film; this was a MAJOR innovation.
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> For those with an interest in film history here is the opening title sequence of "Footlight Parade". The film has a silly plot and is pretty boring but the musical numbers are the important element.
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> Through the miracle of film restoration we're able to view these important socio-cultural 'documents' for many more generations. Director Lloyd Bacon died at 65 in 1955 - quite a long life for many in the film industry in the earlier years. Cinematographer George Barnes died at 60 years of age just two years earlier.


Something about the shadowing around 0:20 suggests a lot of post-production special effects were used. Also with the layers of the circles in the water. They didn't spin with real physics.


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## Guest

Phil loves classical said:


> Something about the shadowing around 0:20 suggests a lot of post-production special effects were used. Also with the layers of the circles in the water. They didn't spin with real physics.


You could be right about that, I really don't know. There were processes back then for special effects, even from the days of Melies and "*A Trip to the Moon*" in 1902. Melies had been a magician but you can clearly see the processes involved in moving from one shot to the next, even though the frame itself is somewhat immobile. He fills his scenes with busy activity to compensate for his immovable camera. This film been speed-corrected and restored and it's a real document of history.


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## Phil loves classical

Christabel said:


> You could be right about that, I really don't know. There were processes back then for special effects, even from the days of Melies and "*A Trip to the Moon*" in 1902. Melies had been a magician but you can clearly see the processes involved in moving from one shot to the next, even though the frame itself is somewhat immobile. He fills his scenes with busy activity to compensate for his immovable camera. This film been speed-corrected and restored and it's a real document of history.


The comet at 7:33 was a real hoot! You must've seen Sunrise: A Song of 2 Humans, which is regularly voted as one of the top films ever made. The special effects were quite impressive.


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## Guest

Phil loves classical said:


> The comet at 7:33 was a real hoot! You must've seen Sunrise: A Song of 2 Humans, which is regularly voted as one of the top films ever made. The special effects were quite impressive.


We could start another thread about silent and/or synchronous early sound film. Yes, I know "Sunrise" from the incredible F.W. Murnau - who died in 1931 in an auto accident in Santa Barbara: an appalling loss for the world of cinema. "Sunrise" was photographed by the incredible Karl Struss - who was a brilliant still photographer and, with Roland Totheroh, was also a cinematographer for Chaplin's films.


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## Guest

In an earlier comment I posted some scenes from "*Footlight Parade*" (1933) where Joan Blondell and the company are singing "My Forgotten Man". The images for some of that sequence were surely influenced by Lewis Milestone's 1930 masterpiece "*All Quiet on the Western Front*". This contains the last scene of the film and at 1:22 you'll see one of the most iconic shots in the history of cinema. After that the (dead) soldiers pass in front of the camera, looking back over their shoulders - and I believe Busby Berkeley was moved and influenced by these shots and the intent behind them:


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## jegreenwood

This 146 page thread covers more than film, but a lot of movies get mentioned.


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## Guest

Absolute class!!


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## mikeh375

Christabel said:


> Absolute class!!


Nothing was impossible for those two on a dance floor. Am I mistaken in thinking that the tap sound was overdubbed?


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## Guest

mikeh375 said:


> Nothing was impossible for those two on a dance floor. Am I mistaken in thinking that the tap sound was overdubbed?


I'm not absolutely sure but in some instances it certainly was; not sure about this one, though: I think he was wearing taps. Perhaps without these over-dubbing was necessary. In any case sound was still relatively new and picking up discrete sounds was often difficult.






Those bakerlite floors had to be re-cleaned after each rehearsal and take.


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## Guest

This was pre-code and very daring in its day:


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## MAS

A shout out to West Side Story with astonishingly athletic moves


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## MAS

Duplicate post deleted.


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## Guest

I posted the "Night and Day" sequence already but I absolutely adore "West Side Story" in toto. Two years ago a friend of mine, who used to be a Stage Manager in the West End of London for 25 years, gave me a copy of Jerome Robbins' script for the West End production of WSS. It had all of Robbins' annotations in the margins, in pencil. Just for a few minutes I held it, bound in leather as it was, and was immediately transported back to that phenomenal musical.


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## MAS

Christabel said:


> I posted the "Night and Day" sequence already but I absolutely adore "West Side Story" in toto. Two years ago a friend of mine, who used to be a Stage Manager in the West End of London for 25 years, gave me a copy of Jerome Robbins' script for the West End production of WSS. It had all of Robbins' annotations in the margins, in pencil. Just for a few minutes I held it, bound in leather as it was, and was immediately transported back to that phenomenal musical.


Oh, sorry, I read through but missed that post! I'll delete Night and Day. 
You have a nice connection to West Side Story!


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## Phil loves classical

Christabel said:


> I'm not absolutely sure but in some instances it certainly was; not sure about this one, though: I think he was wearing taps. Perhaps without these over-dubbing was necessary. In any case sound was still relatively new and picking up discrete sounds was often difficult.
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> Those bakerlite floors had to be re-cleaned after each rehearsal and take.


I had the impression Mike was being sarcastic. It's sounds pretty obvious it was overdubbed.


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## Guest

Phil loves classical said:


> I had the impression Mike was being sarcastic. It's sounds pretty obvious it was overdubbed.


OK, I missed the sarcasm; entirely possible for a film tragic like myself.


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## Guest

Fred Astaire and Cyd Charisse in a very classy dance sequence from "The Bandwagon".






And the very celebrated Michael Kidd choreography and exceptional dancing of Fred and Cyd from the same film:


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## Guest

"From this Moment on" from "*Kiss Me Kate*" (George Sidney, 1953): music by Cole Porter.


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## Guest

This has long been a favourite: James Cagney was one of the greatest talents on American film, along with Rooney and Garland. The absolute tops: talent oozing out of every pore!! Michael Curtiz, director (of whom Cagney spoke affectionately) and beautiful B&W velvety cinematography from James Wong Howe.






Here he is clowning around and dancing with Bob Hope later for the film about the Foy Family: Bob's not half bad with the dancing!!


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## Kieran

Christabel said:


> This has long been a favourite: James Cagney was one of the greatest talents on American film, along with Rooney and Garland. The absolute tops: talent oozing out of every pore!! Michael Curtiz, director (of whom Cagney spoke affectionately) and beautiful B&W velvety cinematography from James Wong Howe.
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> Here he is clowning around and dancing with Bob Hope later for the film about the Foy Family: Bob's not half bad with the dancing!!


I just came here to mention James Cagney, and his great performance in Yankee Doodle. Both his recitative singing, and his dancing were unusual but very vivid and exact. He really was a Hollywood great, a man of immense talent. I love this scene from the end of the film - this should not be tried at home! - it's pure class, no other word for it:


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## mikeh375

Phil loves classical said:


> I had the impression Mike was being sarcastic. It's sounds pretty obvious it was overdubbed.


I wasn't, honest guv.


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## Guest

Kieran said:


> I just came here to mention James Cagney, and his great performance in Yankee Doodle. Both his recitative singing, and his dancing were unusual but very vivid and exact. He really was a Hollywood great, a man of immense talent. I love this scene from the end of the film - this should not be tried at home! - it's pure class, no other word for it:


Absolutely wonderful!! I have read a biography of Cagney and he really was brought up on the mean streets of NYC. And he was estranged from both of his adopted children at the time of his death, and had been for years. (An all-too-common situation, unfortunately.)

Here is Cagney getting his AFI Lifetime Award in 1974 and some of those names he mentioned really stirred me, but no mention of his children!!


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## Rogerx

Sting - When We Dance (Official Music Video)


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## Rogerx

Young frankenstein Putting On The Ritz


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## norman bates

It seems no one has posted this incredible scene from Helzapoppin


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## norman bates

and obviously there's that masterpiece called Red Shoes


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## Rogerx

Cabaret | "Money" Musical Number |


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## Rogerx

Can Can:

the london stage school at Broadway Theatre February 2010


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## Rogerx

1080p HD "Good Morning" - Singin' in the Rain (1952)


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## Rogerx

Ann-Margret hot dance with Elvis Presley in Viva Las Vegas


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## Rogerx

Save the last dance for me - The Drifters


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## jegreenwood

I thought La La Land was . . . pretty good. But I loved the opening.


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## jegreenwood

Fosse and Verdon


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## Rogerx

Cinderella (2021) Ball Dance - Perfect


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## Rogerx

Chitty Chitty Bang Bang - Me Ol' Bam-Boo: Caractacus (Dick Van ****) gets roped into a busking performance while running away from an angry customer.


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## Rogerx

Hellzapoppin' in full color


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## Rogerx

Breakin' Turbo Broom Dance


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## Rogerx

Doris Day - Shaking the Blues Away - Love Me or Leave Me (1955) - Classic Movies -


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## Rogerx

Lune De Miel - Hey, Starlita (official 85')


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## Rogerx

Yul Brynner and Deborah Kerr perform "Shall We Dance" from The King and I


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## Rogerx

Welcome to the Moulin Rouge" from "Moulin Rouge: The Musical".


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## Rogerx

No, No, Nanette" from Tea For Two


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## Rogerx

Fiddler on the Roof - Bottle Dance from wedding scene


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## Rogerx

Half a Sixpence (Title Song) - Tommy Steele and Julia Foster (1967)


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## Rogerx

Connie Francis - Someone Else's Boy


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## jegreenwood

Rogerx said:


> Welcome to the Moulin Rouge" from "Moulin Rouge: The Musical".


The Broadway production just won a slew of Tonys. It's pretty spectacular. The scenic design uses the entire theatre.


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## Rogerx

jegreenwood said:


> The Broadway production just won a slew of Tonys. It's pretty spectacular. The scenic design uses the entire theatre.


I saw it In the U.S.A once ,quit a sensation.


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## Guest

Here is the film '*Swing Time*' (1936, Jerome Kern, composer). At *1:28:00* here is the song "Never Gonna Dance" with Astaire and Rogers. I regard it as one of the best tunes by Kern, though the words are dated and cheesy because of their contemporary references. But the melody is bold and interesting and must have caused Astaire a headache trying to find and follow the melody line. "Never Gonna Dance" is through-composed and full of daring modulations which weren't a feature of popular music most of the time. Jerome Kern as an absolute genius.


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## Rogerx

James "Stump" Cross & Eddie "Stumpy" Hartman (Ship Ahoy - 1942) [


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## Guest

In the same jazz vein, but with a different style of dancing. Rita is amazing here!!


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## Guest




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## Rogerx

Christabel said:


>


Hilarious, good post :lol:


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## Guest

Rogerx said:


> Hilarious, good post :lol:


Absolutely brilliant dancing, though!! And the music of Cole Porter.


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## Rogerx

West Side Story ' Dance at the Gym ' Mambo 
Seen the movies 25 times at least


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## Guest

That dance sequence from "West Side Story" is one of my favourites!! And what a score!!!

John Astin completely spoiled the sequence, IMO, with his frightful over-acting.

You might be interested to know that I have held in my hand the actual original script belonging to Jerome Robbins from the London stage production of "West Side Story". A friend was the Stage Manager of that production, all those years ago. Robbins had detailed instructions written on all the pages in pencil.


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## jegreenwood

Rogerx said:


> West Side Story ' Dance at the Gym ' Mambo
> Seen the movies 25 times at least


It will be interesting to see what Justin Peck does in the Spielberg version. He danced with NYCB, where he is now the resident choreographer. So he knows Robbins' work very well. Probably danced in the _West Side Story Suite._ I've liked some of his choreography, including a great version of _Rodeo_. Some has been less impressive, often because the music does not appeal to me.


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## Rogerx

The Turning Point 1977 - Bancroft / Browne / Baryshnikov
Bit of classical today.
Just for Anne Bancroft alone :angel:


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## Guest

Anne Bancroft was quite lovely, wasn't she. And Mischa; his dancing was to-die-for!!


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## Rogerx

You're Easy to Dance With | Fred Astaire & Virginia Dale Cut Loose | HOLIDAY INN (1942) | Colorized


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## Guest

Absolutely beautifully restored, though I'm not in favour of colorization. Fred Astaire could do anything; he was a genius!! Those old _bakelite_ floors were something else too.

I must say this is my absolute favourite routine from Fred and Ginger - absolutely sensuous - and the music of Cole Porter is nonpareil.


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## Rogerx

Mary Poppins (1964) The Penguin Dance
Some humour. :lol:


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## Rogerx

The Tango - Fred & Ginger in The Story of Vernon and Irene Castle 1939

:angel:


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## Guest

This is actually a very good film!! If I'm not mistaken it was their last dancing together.


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## Guest

This always pleases; what an incredible talent!! And for him it was always regarded as a "job of work".


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## Rogerx

Christabel said:


> This always pleases; what an incredible talent!! And for him it was always regarded as a "job of work".


So much details, wonderful.


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## Guest

Rogerx said:


> So much details, wonderful.


I read the biography of Cagney decades ago, written by Richard Schickel. A bit wordy, but interesting nevertheless. Cagney got his schtick for the gangster films by borrowing from the characters he knew on New York street corners!


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## jegreenwood

Christabel said:


> This is actually a very good film!! If I'm not mistaken it was their last dancing together.


Not quite. MGM reunited them aa decade later in _The Barkleys of Broadway_. (I wish I knew how embed YouTube video using an iPad.)


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## Guest

jegreenwood said:


> Not quite. MGM reunited them aa decade later in _The Barkleys of Broadway_. (I wish I knew how embed YouTube video using an iPad.)


Ah yes, of course; I got the two confused!! It was the family names in the film's titles which confused me. Thanks for setting me straight.


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## Guest

This is one of my favourites from a (then) husband-and-wife team dancing on film - with the extraordinary music of Jerome Kern and orchestrations of Conrad Salinger:






Gower Champion died at 61 and Marge died last year at 101. She outlived her former partner by 40 years!!!


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## Rogerx

Show Boat (1936) ~ Gallavantin' Around
Unbelievable I had this waiting.


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## Guest

One of my favourite musicals and I note the restoration of the 1936 version. Irene Dunne in blackface!! Would that pass muster today???!!!

The music of Kern is just extraordinary; the enharmonic modulations and the unexpected direction of the melody all make this music more compelling. His mixture of folksy idioms and tin pan alley are superb.

This discussion about 'Showboat' should be of interest: the graphic is the cover of the boxed set I've got, performed by London Sinfonietta/John McGlinn: what a stunning recording!!






I dearly love this music of the American Musical Theatre.


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## Guest

Another great musical number from a film; this time "Love Me or Leave Me", starring James Cagney and Doris Day (Vidor/Pasternak for MGM).

Though this film is a biopic it's not a straight musical but a serious drama about control and domestic violence based on the story of singer Ruth Etting: here is Doris Day singing "Ten Cents a Dance". She's absolutely superb, controlled and subtle:


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## Rogerx

Judy (Maureen O'Hara), overwhelmed with frustration, furiously confronts her heckling audience in Dorothy Arzner's "Dance, Girl, Dance" (1940).


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## jegreenwood

Christabel said:


> This is one of my favourites from a (then) husband-and-wife team dancing on film - with the extraordinary music of Jerome Kern and orchestrations of Conrad Salinger:
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> Gower Champion died at 61 and Marge died last year at 101. She outlived her former partner by 40 years!!!


Champion won 8 Tony awards for directing/choreography. His shows included _Bye Bye Birdie_, _Hello Dolly_, and the stage version of _42nd Street_. He died hours before _42nd Street's_ opening night.


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## Rogerx

Barn Raising Dance (7 Brides for 7 Brothers) - MGM Studio Orchestra
Such a nice film.


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## Guest

Wonderful choreography of Michael Kidd and fabulous orchestration of Conrad Salinger. What's not to love in an otherwise cheesy musical!!! Note that those dancers - mostly the males - were classically trained; you can see it in their style.

Classical ballet everywhere in abundance in this phenomenal ballet sequence;


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## Guest

Morning exercise, anyone!!??


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## Rogerx

Christabel said:


> Morning exercise, anyone!!??


This is again a hilarious wonderful one, saw it back on T.V last year I believe, great!!


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## Rogerx

Mr. and Mrs. Hoofer At Home | Three Little Words


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## Guest

Absolutely stunning; Cole Porter's ecstatic music in all its phenomenal originality and sophistication - plus the elegant dancing of Astaire and Charise. In two separate clips here; singing first, then dancing:











Gorgeous orchestrations of Conrad Salinger. This stuff is for very grown up people!!


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## Guest

A wonderful, comic song and dance from "Silk Stockings". The whole film is a re-working of 1939 "Ninotchka" and a satire of Russia. The film would have bitten hard as a musical in the 1950s at the height of the cold war. Porter's absolutely brilliant, witty lyrics are once again on display here:


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## jegreenwood

Christabel said:


> Morning exercise, anyone!!??


Offenbach has met his match. Especially if you add the lyrics.

https://www.themusicallyrics.com/c/204-can-can-the-musical-lyrics/7530-can-can-lyrics.html

p.s. Michael Kidd choreographed the stage version.


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## Guest

jegreenwood said:


> Offenbach has met his match. Especially if you add the lyrics.
> 
> https://www.themusicallyrics.com/c/204-can-can-the-musical-lyrics/7530-can-can-lyrics.html
> 
> p.s. Michael Kidd choreographed the stage version.


There's a famous anecdote about Cole Porter, but I'm not sure whether it's apocryphal. He was sitting at table in a restaurant, I think in Venice. Somebody was playing the music of Rogers and Hammerstein or Hart. Porter quipped, "it takes two people to write a song like that does it?"


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## Guest

In a rare flop for the MGM Freed Unit is the film "The Pirate", directed by Vincente Minnelli with music by Cole Porter. Here is Judy Garland singing about the pirate "Mack the Black" from the film with the *sensational orchestration* by Conrad Salinger:






Here's the ballet from the same film, with Gene Kelly. Again, the orchestration is stunning and really is the dominant element of this sequence, in my opinion:






Finally, "Be a Clown" from the same film. Conrad Salinger pays the biggest compliment to Cole Porter with his simply wonderful orchestration for a production number which could have been just so-so:


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## jegreenwood

Christabel said:


> In a rare flop for the MGM Freed Unit is the film "The Pirate", directed by Vincente Minnelli with music by Cole Porter. Here is Judy Garland singing about the pirate "Mack the Black" from the film with the *sensational orchestration* by Conrad Salinger:
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> Here's the ballet from the same film, with Gene Kelly. Again, the orchestration is stunning and really is the dominant element of this sequence, in my opinion:
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> Finally, "Be a Clown" from the same film. Conrad Salinger pays the biggest compliment to Cole Porter with his simply wonderful orchestration for a production number which could have been just so-so:


I would sat Freed pays the greatest compliment, by pretty much copying the song for _Make 'em Laugh_. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Make_'Em_Laugh


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## Guest

jegreenwood said:


> I would sat Freed pays the greatest compliment, by pretty much copying the song for _Make 'em Laugh_.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Make_'Em_Laugh


Yes, this was just a complete joke in "Singin' in the Rain" and a straight steal from "Be a Clown", though I thought Donald O'Conner's dancing was first rate in that sequence!!

As a songwriting team Freed and Brown weren't top drawer, but there were standouts: again, thanks to Salinger, Hayton and Courage the orchestrations made this music!!


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## Guest

Arthur Freed dubbed the voice of Leon Ames for "*You and I*" from "Meet Me in St. Louis", a lovely and tender song:






More magic from Salinger. Roger Edens on piano.


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## Rogerx

Vitmeatavegamin this ain't. Lucille Ball (Lucy) dances the Hula in 'Dance Girl, Dance' 1940.


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## Guest

A very poignant moment in the biopic "*Words and Music*" about Rodgers and Hart. Here Mel Torme is singing "Blue Moon" to Mickey Rooney's Lorenz "Larry" Hart. Though most of the film was hagiographic, this element of the film really captured the reality of Larry Hart's chronic depression, late night boozing and carousing and sense of loneliness.

In his biography, "Musical Stages", Richard Rodgers discusses very frankly Hart's alcoholism and mental illness which nearly drove the composer to distraction. He details one occasion when he was meant to meet with Hart and a producer in a hotel; Hart turned up late and promptly vomited in the hotel foyer in front of everybody. It's the saddest of stories and an ignominious life for one of the luminaries of American theatre; a witty ranconteur, sophisticated and ingenious word-smith few have equalled or emulated in American culture. He was the resident wit at his alma mater, Columbia University, but his homosexuality, Jewish heritage and short stature created in him a huge inferiority complex. Hart died at 48 years old from complications of alcoholism: "Blue Moon" could be Lorenz "Larry" Hart's anthem.

https://archive.org/details/MelTormeBlueMoonWordsAndMusic1948

"Larry" Hart wasn't just the sum of his problems for he could write every bit as clever lyrics as Cole Porter, sometimes better:






And exquisitely artistic lyrics with a heart-breaking irony:


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## Rogerx

Billy Elliot (dance scenes)

Jamie Bell made me laugh all the time. The thorn between his heart and mind. Great acting.


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## Guest

Absolutely love this scene and this film. Julie Walters; wonderful!!

I taught "Billy Elliot" to 14 year olds in a comprehensive high school. At first they were resistant, "this is about ballet miss" and I said, "Ok, turn the TV off and we can do some written work!". When it finished they said "play it again, miss". Honestly, I thought we were watching "Casablanca"!:lol:

Correction: in a comment above I referred to Richard Rodgers' biography; of course, it was his autobiography!!


----------



## Guest

This is very special indeed. Can you imagine modern audiences sitting through a sophisticated ballet sequence of this duration in a film? The wonderful, original orchestrations of Robert Russell Bennett from the original Broadway production remain largely intact:

The dream ballet sequence from "Oklahoma". Oh god, it's to-die-for!!






This was amongst the very first films I ever saw as a child, and it was in Todd-AO if I recall. I knew then that I'd love cinema until the day I died, wanting to know more and more and more every day - to this day!!


----------



## Guest

There are strong links between the Rodgers & Hammerstein musical "Oklahoma" and the MGM Freed Unit film, "Showboat", made a few years earlier. That link is Conrad Salinger, who worked on Broadway with R&H orchestrator Robert Russell Bennett (whom I mentioned in comment #105. The RRB sound affected Salinger and it's to be heard in various orchestrations he made later when working at MGM.

In the *Oklahoma ballet sequence at 10:14* - in the saloon when the girls are menacing and dancing - you can hear a very similar sound world to "*Showboat*", here from *2:14 to 2:45* in the opening titles sequence.






There are other great similarities, such as the "June is Busting out all Over" ballet from "Carousel" and the impact of that upon Conrad Salinger.

In short, Conrad Salinger carried the 'fingerprint' of Robert Russell Bennett over to his work in film musicals for the MGM Freed Unit.


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## jegreenwood

I wanted to post a stage performance of "Who's That Woman" from _Follies_ - to honor the passing of Stephen Sondheim. It may be the best dance number in any show for which he wrote the music. It was originally choreographed by the great Michael Bennett who went on to stage _A Chorus Line_. The embedded video does not come close to doing it justice.

_Follies_ is about a reunion of ex-follies dancers (now in their 60s more or less). In "Who's That Woman" they recreate one of their old numbers, only to be joined by their prior selves. The video is from the 2011 revival. I saw that twice, but I was also fortunate enough to see the original Broadway cast. I've also seen the National Theatre production on film.

Over the years there has been talk about a film version, but nothing to date.


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## Guest

I hadn't heard of that show by Sondheim before but I certainly recognize the voice of the main singer. From what I've seen (only from this excerpt) it's somewhat campy and a re-working of the kind of musicals that the Gershwins wrote back in the 1920s. More cabaret and vaudeville than conventional narrative-driven musical. This would be because of the title and the subject-matter; big production numbers were a feature of this type of musical. Even the musical arrangement sounds extremely similar to a by-gone era.


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## jegreenwood

Christabel said:


> I hadn't heard of that show by Sondheim before but I certainly recognize the voice of the main singer. From what I've seen (only from this excerpt) it's somewhat campy and a re-working of the kind of musicals that the Gershwins wrote back in the 1920s. More cabaret and vaudeville than conventional narrative-driven musical. This would be because of the title and the subject-matter; big production numbers were a feature of this type of musical. Even the musical arrangement sounds extremely similar to a by-gone era.


It's a flawed show (mostly due to the book), but one of the greatest scores ever written for a musical. The subject is lost dreams (follies) leading to failed lives. Many of the songs are intentional pastiches of composers from the golden age, but each bears Sondheim's own perspective. Here is the "list song" from the show sung by the 86 year old Elaine Stritch.






As a reference, the show opened in 1971.


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## jegreenwood

One more - the torch song from the show. The music is lifted from George Gershwin. The lyrics carry the emotion of some of Ira's work with other collaborators (e.g. "The Man That Got Away"), but they couldn't be much simpler. The performance is from the same 2012 tribute event. The orchestra is the NY Phil. The orchestrator for all of Sondheim's work of this era was Jonathan Tunick.


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## jegreenwood

Finally, the magnificent poster from the original production. Sondheim won the Tonys for best music and best lyrics. He had won the prior year and would win again the next year.









Ted Chapin, son of the former GM of the Metropolitan Opera and himself the former president of the Rodgers and Hammerstein Organization, was a gofer on the original production. If you ever want to know how a Broadway show is constructed, I recommend his book "Everything Was Possible."


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## Guest

"Losing My Mind" is one I've heard many times before and it's a very very good one, just like "Send in the Clowns". What a fine singer that woman is!! Many people think Ira Gershwin was the ideal lyricist for George, but he really deepened when with Arlen et al. I regard "The Man That Got Away" and Judy Garland's version of it as one of the four of five greatest songs EVER written in the 20th century.

For me, Stephen Sondheim was first and foremost a lyricist. His music itself doesn't have the punch and complexity of that other Broadway composer who was a master of *both* words and music, Cole Porter - but that's a very big ask!! Undoubtedly, this is music for very grown up people - which is a feature of both Sondheim and Porter. And our deep gratitude for that.

A friend worked as a Stage Manager in the west end theatre in London and, as I wrote elsewhere, he had Jerome Robbins's original 'script' for those performances of "West Side Story" - which I held in my hand. My friend was 36 years in the theatre and knew a great deal about the history of musicals; that's to say, the musicals which were performed IN London.

Many of these musicals were well known, successful and loved but, from my assessment, most were musically sub-standard - except for the occasional number which out-lived its context. This viewpoint of mine has caused some friction between myself and my west-end-musicals friend, who also worked at Sadler's Wells.

I'm betting my friend either knows of or knows personally Ted Chapin (I've heard the name, probably from interviews in the media) and I'll contact him about this book. They'd be about the same age.


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## Guest

This song and this score is an unqualified masterpiece; a complex five part choral and individual number which brings sophistication in musical construction to another level:


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## jegreenwood

Christabel said:


> This song and this score is an unqualified masterpiece; a complex five part choral and individual number which brings sophistication in musical construction to another level:


The melody for the song "Tonight" started out as simply part of the quintet, but when "One Hand, One Heart" didn't work in the balcony scene, someone said "There's another pretty good tune." The rest is musical theatre history.


----------



## Rogerx

Best Musical Theatre // SWEENEY TODD - Infinity Dance


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## Rogerx

Dance Co. of Wylie Musical Theater 3 Company - Into The Woods
Also on the Sondheim role.


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## Guest

jegreenwood said:


> The melody for the song "Tonight" started out as simply part of the quintet, but when "One Hand, One Heart" didn't work in the balcony scene, someone said "There's another pretty good tune." The rest is musical theatre history.


And how I love that history!!!


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## Guest

"Guys and Dolls" is a fun musical, but Stubby Kaye steals the show with his booming voice, larger-than-life personality and his easy negotiation of melody:


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## jegreenwood

Rogerx said:


> Best Musical Theatre // SWEENEY TODD - Infinity Dance


By the time of the opening of _Sweeney Todd_, it was my habit to see Sondheim's shows in previews. I needed to be among the first to discover what he would do next. But nothing prepared me for _Sweeney_. What an evening, from the factory whistle which blew fortissimo just above my head - I was in the first row towards audience left - to the stunning conclusion.

Referring also to the _Guys and Dolls_ post, about 15 yers ago, New York Magazine hosted a round table of theater lovers (including Frank Rich, the former critic of the New York Times) who were there to select the greatest musical of all time. The three tying for the top position were _Guys and Dolls_, _Gypsy_ (lyrics by Sondheim), and _Sweeney Todd_.


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## jegreenwood

Christabel said:


> "Guys and Dolls" is a fun musical, but Stubby Kaye steals the show with his booming voice, larger-than-life personality and his easy negotiation of melody:


Back in the 1970s, I saw an all black production of _Guys and Dolls_. That number was encores 4 times.

Re: Stubby Kaye. This song has been something of for ear worm to me since I first saw _Lil Abner_ at about age 10. Music by Gene De Paul. Lyrics by Johnny Mercer.


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## jegreenwood

One more Stubby Kaye number - this time as part of a duo.






Lee Marvin won a best actor Oscar for his performance. (But I was watching Jane Fonda.)


----------



## Guest

jegreenwood said:


> Back in the 1970s, I saw an all black production of _Guys and Dolls_. That number was encores 4 times.
> 
> Re: Stubby Kaye. This song has been something of for ear worm to me since I first saw _Lil Abner_ at about age 10. Music by Gene De Paul. Lyrics by Johnny Mercer.


Just wonderful!! The perfect model for musical theatre; personality plus, fabulous diction and great musicality. You could have heard Stubby Kaye's words from the last seat back in the theatre!! I remember that song from decades ago and our family being intrigued by its title!!


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## jegreenwood

Times Square at Noon today


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## Rogerx

Another Good Girl Gone Wrong | Footlight Parade | Warner Archive


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## Guest

I find this production number from '*Gold-Diggers of 1933*' very moving; "Remember My Forgotten Man". Directed by Mervyn le Roy and with tableaux by Busby Berkeley. Wonderful cinematography by Sol Polito.

"Remember My Forgotten Man" is about the Depression and the fact that thousands of men, consigned to the scrap heap, had already fought and suffered in WW1; an actual celebration of manhood and what that means - *the exact reverse* of what we have today:






Social commentary in the early film musical!!


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## jegreenwood

Christabel said:


> I find this production number from '*Gold-Diggers of 1933*' very moving; "Remember My Forgotten Man". Directed by Mervyn le Roy and with tableaux by Busby Berkeley. Wonderful cinematography by Sol Polito.
> 
> "Remember My Forgotten Man" is about the Depression and the fact that thousands of men, consigned to the scrap heap, had already fought and suffered in WW1; an actual celebration of manhood and what that means - *the exact reverse* of what we have today:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Social commentary in the early film musical!!







Not sure if it was ever used in a movie, but this song from 1932 is moving.  Music by Jay Gorney, Lyrics by Yip (Wizard of Oz) Harburg.


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## Guest

jegreenwood said:


> Not sure if it was ever used in a movie, but this song from 1932 is moving. Music by Jay Gorney, Lyrics by Yip (Wizard of Oz) Harburg.


Oh yes. Absolutely heartbreaking!! And wonderful. And so beautifully sung. That it all came down to begging!! After what that generation had already been through.

Listen carefully to the arc of that melody; it's Jewish, every single note of it. Of course, it's the same sound-world as those other genius composers for the theatre who were Jewish or of Jewish heritage too: Porter, Kern, Rodgers, Hart, Hammerstein, Berlin, Gershwin, Schwartz, Dietz, Sondheim, Bernstein, Loesser, Freed..... The list is long and very very distinguished.


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## Rogerx

Oh It's You! | The Prince and the Showgirl | Warner Archive


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## Guest

Rogerx said:


> Oh It's You! | The Prince and the Showgirl | Warner Archive


The woman in that group of Elsie's friends outside - the one on the Left in the brown dress - taught me at drama school 11 years after this film was made, in Sydney. Gillian Owen was her name. A RADA-trained British actress who moved to Australia, winning a Best Actress Award in 1970 for her role in Noel Coward's 'Suite in Three Keys". She subsequently worked as a drama coach at the Sydney Acting School, the New South Wales Conservatory of Music and the Australian Film & Television School.


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## jegreenwood

Rogerx said:


> Oh It's You! | The Prince and the Showgirl | Warner Archive


Re: Marilyn - I haven't checked to see if this has already been posted, but even if so, it deserves an encore.


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## Guest

I don't know how Howard Hawks managed to make this scene or a musical film in general. From what I could tell he didn't have a musical bone in his body!! You obviously didn't need to when you had musicians and choreographers, but I note that Hawks plots the edits in those numbers very carefully, drawing a fine line between the long take and over-editing.

The colour saturation is amazing in this song - red against pink - and the print is very obviously restored. The opening number is also highly saturated with two conflicting colours - purple and red.


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## Guest

I love this melody and orchestration from "*Gigi*" (largely Conrad Salinger):






And the magnificence of Cole Porter:






Absolutely love it!!


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## Rogerx

PRINCESS TAM TAM, Edmond T. Gréville, 1935 - Josephine Baker Dancing

In Honour of the big hero


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## Guest

A friend visited France about 20 years ago and went to see the home of Josephine Baker; apparently she was into Falconry and there were a lot of items from that in the museum there.


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## Rogerx

Christabel said:


> A friend visited France about 20 years ago and went to see the home of Josephine Baker; apparently she was into Falconry and there were a lot of items from that in the museum there.


She is yesterday( ceremonial ) buried in the Paris Panthéon. Place of honour, her remains staying where they are.


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## Guest

This is a joyful dance number:


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## Guest

Absolutely brilliant lyrics!! From "Kiss Me Kate":






And in this number, "*We Open in Venice*", two things stand out; first, the fabulous orchestration, complete with mandolin and secondly, the fact that Kathryn Grayson cannot dance: watch her copying Ann Miller with great hesitancy as they all appear up on the steps at the start of the number!!


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## Guest

One of the best ever - right up there with "The Bandwagon" and "An American in Paris" - is "_From This Moment On_" from the 1953 film "*Kiss Me Kate*" (Jack Cummings/George Sidney for MGM). Orchestrations by Conrad Salinger and Andre Previn. The remarkable music of Cole Porter and THE most stunning dancing of choreography by Hermes Pan. This number wasn't in the original Broadway play; the film producer from the Freed Unit (Cummings) decided to include it. Oh boy, what artistry!!!


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## Rogerx

Rita Hayworth goes mental when gripped by the Esprit de Mardi Gras in this dance sequence for 
The Fire Down Below costarring Mitchum & Lemmon.


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## Guest

This is my fave from Rita Hayworth, alongside "Cover Girl".


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## jegreenwood

Staying with _Kiss Me Kate_, this version from the Proms includes all five choruses (with the original lyrics):


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## Guest

Yes, I saw that with the excellent John Wilson and his orchestra. Talk about clever lyrics!!


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## Rogerx

Wouldn't It Be Loverly - My Fair Lady
Love Audrey.


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## Guest

Yet more magic from the MGM Freed Unit: the incredible dancing of Fred and direction of Stanley Donen. Score by Burton Lane - yet another Jewish composer!!






We will never see a repeat of this glorious, golden age again.


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## jegreenwood

Christabel said:


> Yet more magic from the MGM Freed Unit: the incredible dancing of Fred and direction of Stanley Donen. Score by Burton Lane - yet another Jewish composer!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We will never see a repeat of this glorious, golden age again.


Lyrics by Alan Jay Lerner. (See prior post )

Astaire and Lane "teamed up" almost 20 years later for what I believe was Astaire's last movie musical, _Finian's Rainbow_. The cast also featured Tommy Steele and Petula Clark.






Lyrics in this case were by Yip Harburg. _Finian's_ was not his first rainbow. He also wrote the lyrics for _The Wizard of Oz_.

Oh, and the movie was directed by Francis Ford Coppola.


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## jegreenwood

Lerner and Lane also teamed up again for _On a Clear Day You Can See Forever_.






I regret that the film cuts part of the second chorus.


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## mikeh375

I read that the critic of the Telegraph thinks that Spielberg's soon to be released 'West Side Story' could be his best film in years. I'm really looking forward to it and am particularly interested in what they've done (if anything) to the score and choreography.


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## jegreenwood

As to the choreography:

https://www.talkclassical.com/67325-singing-dancing-screen-5.html?highlight=Justin#post2169443


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## Guest

mikeh375 said:


> I read that the critic of the Telegraph thinks that Spielberg's soon to be released 'West Side Story' could be his best film in years. I'm really looking forward to it and am particularly interested in what they've done (if anything) to the score and choreography.


It's risky, isn't it, when the original is so incredibly good. There are dated elements, of course, in the original - such as the finger snapping - but, boy, that choreography...!!!!!


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## Rogerx

Christabel said:


> It's risky, isn't it, when the original is so incredibly good. There are dated elements, of course, in the original - such as the finger snapping - but, boy, that choreography...!!!!!


He's in good mood, ( Spielberg, that is ) I saw the interview on the BBC.
I think he has a hit.


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## Rogerx

West Side Story - Gee Officer Krupke! (1961) HD
Meanwhile lets remember the old one.


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## Guest

Absolutely brilliant lyrics and a wonderful tune. And funny too. Those Bernstein songs would not have been easy to negotiate for singers because they shifted unpredictably.

That's Russ Tamblyn singing first, isn't it.

That song would trigger a lot of people today too!!!


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## mikeh375

Christabel said:


> It's risky, isn't it, when the original is so incredibly good. There are dated elements, of course, in the original - such as the finger snapping - but, boy, that choreography...!!!!!


Agreed. There is a trailer or two on YT and they look rather good. As to the music, I have the full score and every note feels enshrined forever in the correct and perfect place. The problem for Spielberg might have been making the music relevant post 'LaLaLand' and living up to what is expected of a modern cinema score. I suspect there will have been tinkering from what I've heard so far, probably even new underscore and arrangements. I just hope the music's gutsy dissonanaces are not watered down to make the whole sound like a typical modern musical written for instant appeal.

Get ready for potential drum loops under the 'Cool' fugue.....actually I'd be ok with that, it'd be very urban and contemporary. Maybe LB would approve that too, after all, the music's certainly strong enough to take radical adaptions. (On the trailer, the famous tritone hook is whistled).


----------



## Guest

mikeh375 said:


> Agreed. There is a trailer or two on YT and they look rather good. As to the music, I have the full score and every note feels enshrined forever in the correct and perfect place. The problem for Spielberg might have been making the music relevant post 'LaLaLand' and living up to what is expected of a modern cinema score. I suspect there will have been tinkering from what I've heard so far, probably even new underscore and arrangements. I just hope the music's gutsy dissonanaces are not watered down to make the whole sound like a typical modern musical written for instant appeal.
> 
> Get ready for potential drum loops under the 'Cool' fugue.....actually I'd be ok with that, it'd be very urban and contemporary. Maybe LB would approve that too, after all, the music's certainly strong enough to take radical adaptions. (On the trailer, the famous tritone hook is whistled).


It was Arthur Freed from the eponymous MGM unit who said that audiences didn't like Leonard Bernstein's music because it was 'classical music'. Consequently, he had Comden and Green compose new numbers for "On The Town" to avoid audience exposure to dissonances and other art-music techniques which, of course, are all familiar to those of us who love great music.

But this comment did provide an insight into the dilemma facing film-makers who have to appeal to the broad distribution in film. Bernstein's score for "West Side Story" still upsets people who find it 'difficult' (including my own spouse!).


----------



## jegreenwood

mikeh375 said:


> Agreed. There is a trailer or two on YT and they look rather good. As to the music, I have the full score and every note feels enshrined forever in the correct and perfect place. The problem for Spielberg might have been making the music relevant post 'LaLaLand' and living up to what is expected of a modern cinema score. I suspect there will have been tinkering from what I've heard so far, probably even new underscore and arrangements. I just hope the music's gutsy dissonanaces are not watered down to make the whole sound like a typical modern musical written for instant appeal.
> 
> Get ready for potential drum loops under the 'Cool' fugue.....actually I'd be ok with that, it'd be very urban and contemporary. Maybe LB would approve that too, after all, the music's certainly strong enough to take radical adaptions. (On the trailer, the famous tritone hook is whistled).


But bear in mind, Bernstein did not do the orchestral arrangements for WSS, neither the stage production nor the film. And interestingly, Bernstein cut the tritone at the top of the show when he recorded the concert version. And it is not included in my copy of the complete piano score.

I thought Jeanine Tesori worked on the orchestral arrangements for the Spielberg version, but I was wrong - she worked as a vocal coach. The orchestrator is David Newman. A review of his prior work listed on Wikipedia leaves me concerned as to whether he is the right person for this project. I also wonder if Sondheim tweaked the lyrics. His lyrics for "America" in the film are much better than the lyrics for the stage version. I think I've read that some of the "changes" were actually the original lyrics that were altered during rehearsal of the stage version.



Christabel said:


> It was Arthur Freed from the eponymous MGM unit who said that audiences didn't like Leonard Bernstein's music because it was 'classical music'. Consequently, he had Comden and Green compose new numbers for "On The Town" to avoid audience exposure to dissonances and other art-music techniques which, of course, are all familiar to those of us who love great music.
> 
> But this comment did provide an insight into the dilemma facing film-makers who have to appeal to the broad distribution in film. Bernstein's score for "West Side Story" still upsets people who find it 'difficult' (including my own spouse!).


I recall being confused the first time I heard the album. Of course, I was 5 at the time. 

When considering _On the Town_, I think you have to take into account the fact that the stage version opened during WWII; the film was post-war. Thus, there is almost necessarily a darker undercurrent to the stage version.


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## mikeh375

jegreenwood said:


> But bear in mind, Bernstein did not do the orchestral arrangements for WSS, neither the stage production nor the film. And interestingly, Bernstein cut the tritone at the top of the show when he recorded the concert version. And it is not included in my copy of the complete piano score.
> 
> I thought Jeanine Tesori worked on the orchestral arrangements for the Spielberg version, but I was wrong - she worked as a vocal coach. The orchestrator is David Newman. A review of his prior work listed on Wikipedia leaves me concerned as to whether he is the right person for this project. I also wonder if Sondheim tweaked the lyrics. His lyrics for "America" in the film are much better than the lyrics for the stage version. I think I've read that some of the "changes" were actually the original lyrics that were altered during rehearsal of the stage version.
> 
> .


Yes of course, I was referring to the theatre pit scoring which is what I have a copy of. I think Bernstein did do that (am I correct?). I have doubts about Newman too and thinking about it, I'd only trust someone like John William's know how, musicianship and judgement for this. Still, I'm open minded and tbh, on further reflection, someone not loaded down with the tradition of the work might be better placed to update it anyway. We'll see eh...


----------



## jegreenwood

mikeh375 said:


> Yes of course, I was referring to the theatre pit scoring which is what I have a copy of. I think Bernstein did do that (am I correct?). I have doubts about Newman too and thinking about it, I'd only trust someone like John William's know how, musicianship and judgement for this. Still, I'm open minded and tbh, on further reflection, someone not loaded down with the tradition of the work might be better placed to update it anyway. We'll see eh...


Actually Bernstein didn't do the theater pit scoring. He is co-credited with Sid Ramin and Irving Kostal; however my music teacher, who took master classes from Bernstein, doesn't believe Bernstein played a large role in orchestrations. It would be difficult for someone to spend days in rehearsal, and maybe evenings composing new music to do so.

It does look like David Newman did an orchestration of some of the music in 2011, which must have been approved by the Bernstein Estate.

https://leonardbernstein.com/works/view/9/west-side-story


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## Guest

jegreenwood said:


> Actually Bernstein didn't do the theater pit scoring. He is co-credited with Sid Ramin and Irving Kostal; however my music teacher, who took master classes from Bernstein, doesn't believe Bernstein played a large role in orchestrations. It would be difficult for someone to spend days in rehearsal, and maybe evenings composing new music to do so.
> 
> It does look like David Newman did an orchestration of some of the music in 2011, which must have been approved by the Bernstein Estate.
> 
> https://leonardbernstein.com/works/view/9/west-side-story


But we have it on the public record that Bernstein disliked the lush scoring for the film version of his musical, preferring instead the leaner forces and less ostentation of the 'orchestra pit'.

It wasn't usual for composers to complete the orchestrations; that was too time-consuming and mostly went to people who excelled in that craft, for example, Robert Russell Bennett - who did the orchestrations for Rodgers & Hammerstein on Broadway.


----------



## mikeh375

Christabel said:


> But we have it on the public record that Bernstein disliked the lush scoring for the film version of his musical, preferring instead the leaner forces and less ostentation of the 'orchestra pit'.
> 
> I*t wasn't usual for composers to complete the orchestrations; that was too time-consuming and mostly went to people who excelled in that craft, for example, Robert Russell Bennett - who did the orchestrations for Rodgers & Hammerstein on Broadwa*y.


..nothing`s changed in that regard, believe me.


----------



## Guest

mikeh375 said:


> ..nothing`s changed in that regard, believe me.


*Taking the process in reverse*, just image this on two staves (sometimes it could be more) in piano reduction form: it's a masterpiece with its aesthetic clearly focussed on the American people enduring the separation and grief of WW2.






Conrad Salinger orchestrated this in a masterful way; it becomes a hymn/chorale of the type composed by Bach. Listen to the bass line. I feel confident in saying this would not have been in the original composition.

Salinger was trained at the Paris Conservatoire with Andre Gedalge and possibly Nadia Boulanger. I cannot over-estimate Salinger's genius and no less a person than Andre Previn said so.

Here is Conrad Salinger, at the Paris Conservatoire with Gedalge at the piano, standing last on the left:










There would be other, as yet unidentified, notable persons in that picture!!


----------



## Rogerx

The swan - Der Schwan - Grace Kelly. Dance scene ! Very beautiful !


----------



## Rogerx

Music+Cinema: Bathing Beauty 2)Esther Williams ballet- Le Bal des sirènes

:angel:


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## mikeh375

Christabel said:


> *Taking the process in reverse*, just image this on two staves (sometimes it could be more) in piano reduction form: it's a masterpiece with its aesthetic clearly focussed on the American people enduring the separation and grief of WW2.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Conrad Salinger orchestrated this in a masterful way; it becomes a hymn/chorale of the type composed by Bach. Listen to the bass line. I feel confident in saying this would not have been in the original composition.
> 
> Salinger was trained at the Paris Conservatoire with Andre Gedalge and possibly Nadia Boulanger. I cannot over-estimate Salinger's genius and no less a person than Andre Previn said so.
> 
> Here is Conrad Salinger, at the Paris Conservatoire with Gedalge at the piano, standing last on the left:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There would be other, as yet unidentified, notable persons in that picture!!


ahh Christabel, one of the greatest Xmas songs ever written imv. Garland's interpretation is perfect. I play this every year on piano for folk and milk it for every drop of longing and hope I can....
Yes, arrangers can and sometimes do alter harmony and adding lines is of course essential when scoring. It all depends on the composer, their skill and what they supply. John William's for example will sometimes give orchestrators about 12 staves of music annotated with instructions. In fact I know one orchestrator who has said that sometimes he's felt more like a copyist, such is the detail in the 'short' score. Conversely, I once orchestrated for a composer who basically supplied some chords and a tune so as you can imagine, scoring then becomes as much composing.

Re West Side story, I was interested to hear from JeG that Bernstein did not fully score the show but am not surprised given how fast moving production can be and given his other commitments. I'll bet he had more input than one might think though. I did a score for an Xmas animated movie called 'Father Christmas' based on a Raymond Briggs book and there was a song me and my librettist had written as part of the score. It was due to be sung by comedian Mel Smith (who was the voice of santa). Iirc, two days before the orchestral recording sessions, we got word that Mel Smith wanted it in a lower key. I had no time to do this, being inundated with score and part preparation (no computers then), so we called in another orchestrator who basically just had to transpose the score down a third....easy money for him and less stress for me.


----------



## Guest

Wonderful anecdotes there, mikeh. Salinger was regarded as more of a 'composer' when it came to arranging and, of course, he wrote some original material for "Meet Me in St. Louis", including for Halloween, called "_Most Horrible_" on the original soundtrack; number 13 here on this link. See if you can identify which pretty famous work he's borrowed from!!

https://archive.org/details/meet-me...ture+Soundtrack/13+The+Most+Horrible+One.flac

It is said that Jerome Kern didn't like Salinger's elaborate and dense orchestrations for "Show Boat" and *"Till The Clouds Roll By". _You've got to be kidding me_!! One can hear the influence of Robert Russell Bennett's orchestrations for Rodgers & Hammerstein here in the opening title sequence (at *2:10* here): this is to-die-for!!






Did I happen to mention that I just adore the work of Conrad Salinger? For "Show Boat" he worked with Adolph Deutsch and Alex Courage.

The Freed Unit at MGM was referred to as "the royal family" of MGM.

(*Since Kern died suddenly the year before this picture was released we can only assume he was complaining about the musical production work being prepared.)


----------



## jegreenwood

Rogerx said:


> The swan - Der Schwan - Grace Kelly. Dance scene ! Very beautiful !


Quite a cast assembled for that film. But I admit, every time I see Estelle Winwood, all I can think of is, "Hold me, touch me." Which is what made me think of this clip:


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## Rogerx

The scene is from "Soldier of Orange", a classic WWII film by Paul Verhoeven. The Hollander in black (Derek de Lint) is a Nazi collaborator who knows his former classmate & close friend in the tux (Rutger Hauer) is now fighting the Germans as a partisan spy. Their friendship and the tango put WWII on hold for the evening. Enjoy!


----------



## jegreenwood

Christabel said:


> Wonderful anecdotes there, mikeh. Salinger was regarded as more of a 'composer' when it came to arranging and, of course, he wrote some original material for "Meet Me in St. Louis", including for Halloween, called "_Most Horrible_" on the original soundtrack; number 13 here on this link. See if you can identify which pretty famous work he's borrowed from!!
> 
> https://archive.org/details/meet-me...ture+Soundtrack/13+The+Most+Horrible+One.flac
> 
> It is said that Jerome Kern didn't like Salinger's elaborate and dense orchestrations for "Show Boat" and *"Till The Clouds Roll By". _You've got to be kidding me_!! One can hear the influence of Robert Russell Bennett's orchestrations for Rodgers & Hammerstein here in the opening title sequence (at *2:10* here): this is to-die-for!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did I happen to mention that I just adore the work of Conrad Salinger? For "Show Boat" he worked with Adolph Deutsch and Alex Courage.
> 
> The Freed Unit at MGM was referred to as "the royal family" of MGM.
> 
> (*Since Kern died suddenly the year before this picture was released we can only assume he was complaining about the musical production work being prepared.)


My favorite version by far of "Till the Clouds Roll By" - indeed one of my favorite recordings of *any *song - is by Max Morath and Joan Morris with piano accompaniment by William Bolcom. Simple and unadorned as can be. It's from _These Charming People_, an album of duets that I don't believe ever made it to CD. I burned a disc from my cassette of the album and then ripped it to my hard drive.

Another nice version in my collection is by Sylvia McNair with Andre Previn on piano from an album of Kern songs

By the way, _Meet Me in St. Louis_ was adapted for Broadway a while back. A friend of mine was in the cast.


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## Guest

I see I've made a *big mistake*: Kern, of course, had already died when "Showboat" was made in 1950 so he could not have objected to Salinger's orchestrations for that film. It would have been his other arrangements for Kern's songs in prior musicals. I learned this information about Kern's objections on a Zoom seminar with American composers and arrangers who discussed Salinger a year or so ago. Also involved in that discussion was Michael Feinstein.


----------



## Rogerx

White Christmas Sisters
( For this time of the year)


----------



## Rogerx

Scrooge - December The 25th
Golden oldie for this season.


----------



## Guest




----------



## Rogerx

Christabel said:


>


Great, I go a bit of topic, have you ever seen this one?


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## Guest

Rogerx said:


> Great, I go a bit of topic, have you ever seen this one?


It's absolutely terrifying!!!


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## Rogerx

La La Land - "A lovely night" scene


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## Guest

I see that in my post #*164* nobody has been able to discover who influenced Salinger in that score he provided for "Meet Me in St. Louis". It's the one for the Halloween sequence called "Most Horrible" on the soundtrack.

Well, here's the influence - at *2:05* Not surprising since Dukas was teaching at the Paris Conservatoire at about the time Salinger was studying there:


----------



## jegreenwood

Rogerx said:


> Great, I go a bit of topic, have you ever seen this one?


I had already seen the stage version (with Lee Remick), so I knew what to expect. Still, Alan Arkin scared the ***** out of me. (Avoiding spoiler) It's a device that's been used 100+ times, but I had never seen it before, and I wonder how many times it had been used before. Sort of like Christie's _And Then There Were None_.

By the way, it was revived on the stage with Quentin Tarantino in the Arkin role. Which made clear he is a better director than actor.


----------



## Guest

This one scared me more!!! Same idea.


----------



## Rogerx

BTS - Black Swan Performance


----------



## Guest

It seems like a variant of Michael Flatley's "Riverdance" phenomenon.


----------



## Guest

A wonderful theatrical voice:











Cole Porter is honoured by the orchestration of *Conrad Salinger* with additional arrangements by Skip Martin:






Oh god, what can I say??!!! (I could have met Rouben Mamoulian as he was sitting in the office next to mine and I was too stupid to realize his importance back then!!):


----------



## Rogerx

Mary Poppins (1964) - "Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious"


----------



## jegreenwood

Christabel said:


> A wonderful theatrical voice:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cole Porter is honoured by the orchestration of *Conrad Salinger* with additional arrangements by Skip Martin:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh god, what can I say??!!! (I could have met Rouben Mamoulian as he was sitting in the office next to mine and I was too stupid to realize his importance back then!!):


I think I've seen _Silk Stockings_ only once, and that was many years ago. I need to check it out. I can't recall a Broadway revival. I think I recall one for _Can-Can_ many years ago.


----------



## Guest

jegreenwood said:


> I think I've seen _Silk Stockings_ only once, and that was many years ago. I need to check it out. I can't recall a Broadway revival. I think I recall one for _Can-Can_ many years ago.


If they have these Broadway revivals I'd be interested to know if they use the Salinger orchestrations? The orchestras weren't as huge as one might think, only growing in size after 'stereophonic sound'. Before that Salinger used a small, theatre-sized orchestra - really not much bigger than a dance band - and achieved miraculous results from this for film. You'd just never know.

The question of stage to film is, of course, fraught when it comes to re-orchestration - as we all know from Bernstein's comments about "West Side Story". Did Spielberg use those same orchestrations for his new film?


----------



## jegreenwood

Christabel said:


> If they have these Broadway revivals I'd be interested to know if they use the Salinger orchestrations? The orchestras weren't as huge as one might think, only growing in size after 'stereophonic sound'. Before that Salinger used a small, theatre-sized orchestra - really not much bigger than a dance band - and achieved miraculous results from this for film. You'd just never know.
> 
> The question of stage to film is, of course, fraught when it comes to re-orchestration - as we all know from Bernstein's comments about "West Side Story". Did Spielberg use those same orchestrations for his new film?


David Newman did the orchestrations in Spielberg's WSS.

As for orchestrations of theater productions, that's tied up with union rules. Historically, these rules set a minimum number of musicians for each Broadway house. In other words if, say, your show was in the Winter Garden the producers might have to hire 28 musicians, whether or not they needed that many. This has been a huge bone of contention, and I know that producers have whittled away at that requirement; I just don't know where things stand. I do know that rarely will you see that large an orchestra these days. The exceptions that come to mind include the Lincoln Center revivals of Rodgers and Hammerstein musicals, where the size of the original orchestra was maintained. I recall the overture for _South Pacific_ where the audience applauded as the orchestra rose from the pit.

I'm pretty sure that Bernstein and his estate generally require a full orchestra. I'm not sure if that was true for Ivo Van Hove's radical reinterpretation in 2020.

By the way, the original orchestration for WSS does not include any viola parts. Bernstein couldn't stand the violists who generally played at the Winter Garden, and that was his way of keeping them out.


----------



## Guest

jegreenwood said:


> David Newman did the orchestrations in Spielberg's WSS.
> 
> As for orchestrations of theater productions, that's tied up with union rules. Historically, these rules set a minimum number of musicians for each Broadway house. In other words if, say, your show was in the Winter Garden the producers might have to hire 28 musicians, whether or not they needed that many. This has been a huge bone of contention, and I know that producers have whittled away at that requirement; I just don't know where things stand. I do know that rarely will you see that large an orchestra these days. The exceptions that come to mind include the Lincoln Center revivals of Rodgers and Hammerstein musicals, where the size of the original orchestra was maintained. I recall the overture for _South Pacific_ where the audience applauded as the orchestra rose from the pit.
> 
> I'm pretty sure that Bernstein and his estate generally require a full orchestra. I'm not sure if that was true for Ivo Van Hove's radical reinterpretation in 2020.
> 
> By the way, the original orchestration for WSS does not include any viola parts. Bernstein couldn't stand the violists who generally played at the Winter Garden, and that was his way of keeping them out.


I hadn't heard that anecdote about the viola parts. With the R&H productions perhaps they used the original Robert Russell Bennett orchestrations.


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## Rogerx

The Lady In The Tutti Frutti Hat

I won two tickets for the West side Story, I don't have a Q app.


----------



## jegreenwood

Christabel said:


> I hadn't heard that anecdote about the viola parts. With the R&H productions perhaps they used the original Robert Russell Bennett orchestrations.


He did. Unnecessary characters.


----------



## Rogerx

Sammy Davis Sr, father of Sammy Davis Jr., takes center stage and shows the tap skills he passed on to his son, in this appearance of the Will Mastin Trio on the Colgate Comedy Hour on August 8, 1954. 
Not from a movie as far as I know. but great watching.


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## Rogerx

ENCHANTED from Disney


----------



## Guest

Orchestrations Conrad Salinger:


----------



## Guest

Two of my favourite songs of all time, "Long Ago and Far Away". Along with "The Way You Look Tonight". Absolute masterpieces.


----------



## mikeh375

It sounds as though there hasn't been much meddling with the score for Spielberg's West Side Story according to some reports. I'm relieved I guess and from what I've heard in this playlist of the score, it sounds great.....


----------



## Guest

This new West Side Story has prestige credentials; Spielberg, Sondheim, Bernstein and "The Dude" - Dudamel conducting. It certainly sounds terrific and, I agree, the score sounds _rather like_ the Chaplin, Green, Kostal, Ramin from the 60s film - only more 'orchestral'.

Looking forward to seeing it - and I usually don't like re-makes!!


----------



## Rogerx

The Gangs fight in the street (West Side Story)( old )






Steven Spielberg's "West Side Story" | Official Trailer | 20th Century Studios


----------



## Guest

Thanks for this; always a pleasure to watch "West Side Story".


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## Guest

"Cabin in the Sky"; an all African American musical. Freed had problems getting this one off the ground. Here's a scene featuring "Duke" Ellington and his band. The film was directed by Vincente Minnelli.


----------



## Guest

I wonder if it's the Disney brand?

https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/w...th-disappointing-10-million-debut-2021-12-12/


----------



## Gargamel

Christabel said:


> This new West Side Story has prestige credentials; Spielberg, Sondheim, Bernstein and "The Dude" - Dudamel conducting. It certainly sounds terrific and, I agree, the score sounds _rather like_ the Chaplin, Green, Kostal, Ramin from the 60s film - only more 'orchestral'.
> 
> Looking forward to seeing it - and I usually don't like re-makes!!


Saw it yesterday. 'Woke' criticisms aside, it was a well-paced celebration of that noisy NYC. This had some amazing talent, such as the guys who played Bernardo and Riff, but Rachel Zegler, the girl who played Maria, really carried the whole movie, almost just with her voice. What's with these mumbling heart throbs, though? Ansel Elgort (Tony) had a fine voice, but I didn't really see why Maria fell in love with Tony, all I saw was that Tony got laid. The person he really loved must have been Riff? My favorite number was the Tonight ensemble where everybody is just going about their own business. Funny, Sondheim didn't like the song "Tonight" much. (When he played it to Milton Babbitt he reportedly told him it's not a very good song.) There actually being some stinkers elsewhere ("Somewhere" feels like Bernstein came up with a good melody, and put zero effort into it).


----------



## Guest

Gargamel said:


> Saw it yesterday. 'Woke' criticisms aside, it was a well-paced celebration of that noisy NYC. This had some amazing talent, such as the guys who played Bernardo and Riff, but Rachel Zegler, the girl who played Maria, really carried the whole movie, almost just with her voice. What's with these mumbling heart throbs, though? Ansel Elgort (Tony) had a fine voice, but I didn't really see why Maria fell in love with Tony, all I saw was that Tony got laid. The person he really loved must have been Riff? My favorite number was the Tonight ensemble where everybody is just going about their own business. Funny, Sondheim didn't like the song "Tonight" much. (When he played it to Milton Babbitt he reportedly told him it's not a very good song.) There actually being some stinkers elsewhere ("Somewhere" feels like Bernstein came up with a good melody, and put zero effort into it).


Interesting to read your response. For me "Somewhere" has the same kind of bogus refulgence you find in "You'll Never Walk Alone"!!


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## Rogerx

Let´s KNock KNees - The Gay Divorcee (1934)


----------



## Rogerx

Gargamel said:


> Saw it yesterday. 'Woke' criticisms aside, it was a well-paced celebration of that noisy NYC. This had some amazing talent, such as the guys who played Bernardo and Riff, but Rachel Zegler, the girl who played Maria, really carried the whole movie, almost just with her voice. What's with these mumbling heart throbs, though? Ansel Elgort (Tony) had a fine voice, but I didn't really see why Maria fell in love with Tony, all I saw was that Tony got laid. The person he really loved must have been Riff? My favorite number was the Tonight ensemble where everybody is just going about their own business. Funny, Sondheim didn't like the song "Tonight" much. (When he played it to Milton Babbitt he reportedly told him it's not a very good song.) There actually being some stinkers elsewhere ("Somewhere" feels like Bernstein came up with a good melody, and put zero effort into it).


I saw on a USA site that it was overhyped and far beneath the directors level. 
So rude. * They said that from other movies by him, he who laugh last laughs the best)


----------



## Guest

From "Follow the Fleet":


----------



## Guest

"*A Day at the Races*" Lindy-hop segment:


----------



## Rogerx

Christabel said:


> From "Follow the Fleet":


That guy with barrel is great, I do expect that the smoking would now be forbidden


----------



## Guest

Rogerx said:


> That guy with barrel is great, I do expect that the smoking would now be forbidden


Fred Astaire. He is really playing that piano too.


----------



## jegreenwood

Gargamel said:


> Saw it yesterday. 'Woke' criticisms aside, it was a well-paced celebration of that noisy NYC. This had some amazing talent, such as the guys who played Bernardo and Riff, but Rachel Zegler, the girl who played Maria, really carried the whole movie, almost just with her voice. What's with these mumbling heart throbs, though? Ansel Elgort (Tony) had a fine voice, but I didn't really see why Maria fell in love with Tony, all I saw was that Tony got laid. The person he really loved must have been Riff? My favorite number was the Tonight ensemble where everybody is just going about their own business. Funny, Sondheim didn't like the song "Tonight" much. (When he played it to Milton Babbitt he reportedly told him it's not a very good song.) There actually being some stinkers elsewhere *("Somewhere" feels like Bernstein came up with a good melody, and put zero effort into it).*


According to Sondheim, Bernstein had already written the melody for "Somewhere" before WSS, but hadn't found a place to use it. He is critical of his own lyrics, noting in particular that 'a' in the opening line gets the most important note.

As to "Tonight," was Babbitt critical of the music or the lyrics? In _Finishing the Hat_, Sondheim seems slightly critical of the lyrics. The melody actually started as part of the Quintet, but was borrowed from there when they realized "One Hand, One Heart" didn't work in the balcony scene.


----------



## Gargamel

jegreenwood said:


> As to "Tonight," was Babbitt critical of the music or the lyrics? In _Finishing the Hat_, Sondheim seems slightly critical of the lyrics. The melody actually started as part of the Quintet, but was borrowed from there when they realized "One Hand, One Heart" didn't work in the balcony scene.


No, I meant Sondheim himself was critical of "Tonight", apparently the music which I find perplexing:

_Interviewer: "Stephen Sondheim was a student of yours. Is it true that you made a small contribution to West Side Story?"

Milton Babbitt: "The show was called East Side Story originally, you know. Of course, I knew Lennie Bernstein, who wrote the score, but he was not a favorite of mine, nor I of his. Steve knew this and came down one day and played a song from the show called "Tonight." He said, "It's not very good, but I'll have to write a lyric." So he played it through and I said, "Look here, at the end the least he can do is wrinkle the beginning," and I showed him something he could do harmonically. So later, Stephen played it for Bernstein and he said, "Oh, you must have gotten that from Milton.""_


----------



## jegreenwood

Rogerx said:


> Let´s KNock KNees - The Gay Divorcee (1934)


A Cole Porter show on Broadway. I believe "Night and Day" was the only song of his that made it into the film.


----------



## jegreenwood

Gargamel said:


> No, I meant Sondheim himself was critical of "Tonight", apparently the music which I find perplexing:
> 
> _Interviewer: "Stephen Sondheim was a student of yours. Is it true that you made a small contribution to West Side Story?"
> 
> Milton Babbitt: "The show was called East Side Story originally, you know. Of course, I knew Lennie Bernstein, who wrote the score, but he was not a favorite of mine, nor I of his. Steve knew this and came down one day and played a song from the show called "Tonight." He said, "It's not very good, but I'll have to write a lyric." So he played it through and I said, "Look here, at the end the least he can do is wrinkle the beginning," and I showed him something he could do harmonically. So later, Stephen played it for Bernstein and he said, "Oh, you must have gotten that from Milton.""_


In _Finishing the Hat_ Sondheim explains his challenge with "Tonight" - "[H]ow to combine the artificial jive talk that Arthur had created for Tony and the Jets with the style he had created for Maria and the Sharks - elegant and polite, rather like a literal translation from the Spanish - so that the lovers could sing in duet. Hence the formality of the lyric, and its lapses into "poetry."

He doesn't really criticize Bernstein about "Tonight" in the book. He does note that several other Bernstein melodies (like "Somewhere" mentioned above) for making it difficult for him as a lyricist.

By the way, Sondheim mentions that the melody for "Gee, Officer Krupke" was originally composed for _Candide_.


----------



## Guest

jegreenwood said:


> A Cole Porter show on Broadway. I believe "Night and Day" was the only song of his that made it into the film.


Oh, and what a song that is!!! An absolute masterpiece.


----------



## Guest

The small band playing this would have been sitting behind the camera in 1934!! I love the way the tuba carries the rhythm: this version is sensual choreography at its best because the rhythm of the dancers' bodies is in sync with the brass.


----------



## MAS

Christabel said:


> The small band playing this would have been sitting behind the camera in 1934!! I love the way the tuba carries the rhythm: this version is sensual choreography at its best because the rhythm of the dancers' bodies is in sync with the brass.


A perfect pairing! They surely don't make 'em like they used to! The way Astaire sings the difficult "Night and Day" is fabulous.


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## jegreenwood

I guess this is the most recent recording:






Skip the intro - the rest sounds pretty fine. Tony is 95 and has Alzheimer's.


----------



## Guest

MAS said:


> A perfect pairing! They surely don't make 'em like they used to! The way Astaire sings the difficult "Night and Day" is fabulous.


Honestly, MAS, I regard this song as the equal to any written by Schubert. And I remember saying this to my piano/theory teacher in the late 80s; she threw her hands up in horror, but I stand by my original opinion.

A tragic postlude to "*The Gay Divorcee*" was that its director, Mark Sandrich (born Goldstein) was dead at 44 years old in 1945. His sister, a highly regarded professional photographer, died 5 years before him in childbirth, aged 37.


----------



## Rogerx

From the short: IT'S IN THE STARS 1938
I have no idea who any of the dancers are other than actors Johnny Downs and Eleanor Lynn but they all seem to have a lot of energy.


----------



## Rogerx

Oliver [1968] - Consider Yourself [Full Song and Choreography]
:angel:


----------



## Guest

"Oliver" is such an excellent film. The British didn't make good musical films generally, but this is a very good one.


----------



## Rogerx

Christabel said:


> "Oliver" is such an excellent film. The British didn't make good musical films generally, but this is a very good one.


Not so long ago I saw a documentary about the boy who played Oliver, bit said really.


----------



## Guest

I think this is the best musical number in "Oliver", with its use of intricate counterpoint. However, I think the singer who starts the piece sounds slightly flat on the note; has anybody else picked up on that?


----------



## Rogerx

Christabel said:


> I think this is the best musical number in "Oliver", with its use of intricate counterpoint. However, I think the singer who starts the piece sounds slightly flat on the note; has anybody else picked up on that?


Now I did, never noticed it .


----------



## Rogerx

I mentioned the actor before, this is what Wiki says:

Mark Lester (born Mark A. Letzer)[1] is a former British youth actor. He is best known as Oliver Twist from the musical film Oliver!. He also played a lead role in the movie The Prince and the Pauper. He also played several (guest) roles in British series and films. After 1977 he decided to stop acting and started training in osteopathy with a specialization in sports injuries.

Father of Paris Jackson
Lester was a close friend of Michael Jackson and is godfather to his three children. After Jackson died in 2009, Lester claimed he may be Paris' biological father. Lester is said to have been one of the twenty sperm donors in 1996. He wanted to prove this via a DNA test, but Jackson's lawyer refused to comment.


----------



## Guest

The superb orchestration for this film, particularly the "*Who Will Buy*??" production number is no serendipitous affair; the great Johnny Green (formerly at the MGM Freed Unit), who worked with Conrad Salinger, is responsible for the orchestration in "Oliver". If you want the best results you have to have the very best production team and "Oliver" certainly had that in spades.

A wonderful film - the best musical ever produced in the UK by longer than a country mile - and one which always pleases (except for the violent scenes with Bill Sykes (Oliver Reed - and what a brute of a man that actor was - yet the nephew of the director, the great Carol Reed).


----------



## jegreenwood

Christabel said:


> The superb orchestration for this film, particularly the "*Who Will Buy*??" production number is no serendipitous affair; the great Johnny Green (formerly at the MGM Freed Unit), who worked with Conrad Salinger, is responsible for the orchestration in "Oliver". If you want the best results you have to have the very best production team and "Oliver" certainly had that in spades.
> 
> A wonderful film - the best musical ever produced in the UK by longer than a country mile - and one which always pleases (except for the violent scenes with Bill Sykes (Oliver Reed - and what a brute of a man that actor was - yet the nephew of the director, the great Carol Reed).


I DVR'd that a while back. I need to watch it. I may have been put off by the fact I was disappointed by the novel, which I read fairly recently. (I'm a big Dickens fan overall.)

I saw the Broadway production when I was about 10. I probably saw Davy Jones, later of Monkees fame, as the Artful Dodger. My dad passed down to me the Broadway Cast Album, which I listened to a lot. So many of the tunes were so hummable. "Oom Pah Pah" remains something of an ear worm till this day.


----------



## Guest

I agree with you about "*Oliver Twist*". I find its anti-semitism discombobulating and the characters mostly grotesque. But there is much anti-semitism in Dickens right across his oeuvre. The only three novels I really enjoyed by Dickens were "Great Expectations", "David Copperfield" and "Dombey and Son". Having done an Honours degree unit on Dickens I found some of them just indigestible, eg. 'Bleak House', 'Our Mutual Friend' (incoherent) and 'Hard Times'. OMF was, I think, his last novel and its direction towards modernism made it an absolute trial to read and I make the confession of going to tutorials at university having not read three of the books on the list. Has anybody ever noticed that none of those later novels I've mentioned have ever been turned into films? There is a reason for this!!


----------



## jegreenwood

Christabel said:


> I agree with you about "*Oliver Twist*". I find its anti-semitism discombobulating and the characters mostly grotesque. But there is much anti-semitism in Dickens right across his oeuvre. The only three novels I really enjoyed by Dickens were "Great Expectations", "David Copperfield" and "Dombey and Son". Having done an Honours degree unit on Dickens I found some of them just indigestible, eg. 'Bleak House', 'Our Mutual Friend' (incoherent) and 'Hard Times'. OMF was, I think, his last novel and its direction towards modernism made it an absolute trial to read and I make the confession of going to tutorials at university having not read three of the books on the list. Has anybody ever noticed that none of those later novels I've mentioned have ever been turned into films? There is a reason for this!!


No, but I bet they all have had BBC adaptations. _Bleak House_ may be my favorite Dickens novel. It's the only one I read twice. My biggest problem with _Oliver Twist_ is that the title character is (by his circumstances) so passive. The book is all about things done to him.

My favorite of the earlier novels is _Nicholas Nickleby_. I read it in preparation for seeing the massive 8 1/2 hour stage adaptation by the Royal Shakespeare Company. 10 if you include the dinner break. And I was not bored for an instant. The director and designer of the show then moved on to a musical, also based on a 19th century novel, _Les Miserables_.


----------



## Guest

jegreenwood said:


> No, but I bet they all have had BBC adaptations. _Bleak House_ may be my favorite Dickens novel. It's the only one I read twice. My biggest problem with _Oliver Twist_ is that the title character is (by his circumstances) so passive. The book is all about things done to him.
> 
> My favorite of the earlier novels is _Nicholas Nickleby_. I read it in preparation for seeing the massive 8 1/2 hour stage adaptation by the Royal Shakespeare Company. 10 if you include the dinner break. And I was not bored for an instant. The director and designer of the show then moved on to a musical, also based on a 19th century novel, _Les Miserables_.


I did hear about that long production but as George Cukor once said about "A Star is Born" and its length, "there is only so much the human **** can stand"!!! The BBC seems to have run a TV series on "Bleak House".


----------



## Gargamel

Christabel said:


> I agree with you about "*Oliver Twist*". I find its anti-semitism discombobulating and the characters mostly grotesque. But there is much anti-semitism in Dickens right across his oeuvre. The only three novels I really enjoyed by Dickens were "Great Expectations", "David Copperfield" and "Dombey and Son". Having done an Honours degree unit on Dickens I found some of them just indigestible, eg. 'Bleak House', 'Our Mutual Friend' (incoherent) and 'Hard Times'. OMF was, I think, his last novel and its direction towards modernism made it an absolute trial to read and I make the confession of going to tutorials at university having not read three of the books on the list. Has anybody ever noticed that none of those later novels I've mentioned have ever been turned into films? There is a reason for this!!


I don't know if this has anything to do with music, but even Dickens himself acknowledged the problems with Oliver Twist, first and foremost with the "anagnorisis" of everyone turning out being related (which is silly, but unfortunately not over the top). Secondly it was stated in Wikipedia that when Dickens became notified of its overt anti-semitism, he halted the paper machines to make revisions. Yeah, imagine, it was even worse before the revisions! (Most people only think of Fagin, but let's not forget Barney, another jew whose eye dialect is the impression of a nasal, squeaky voice.)


----------



## Guest

Gargamel said:


> I don't know if this has anything to do with music, but even Dickens himself acknowledged the problems with Oliver Twist, first and foremost with the "anagnorisis" of everyone turning out being related (which is silly, but unfortunately not over the top). Secondly it was stated in Wikipedia that when Dickens became notified of its overt anti-semitism, he halted the paper machines to make revisions. Yeah, imagine, it was even worse before the revisions! (Most people only think of Fagin, but let's not forget Barney, another jew whose eye dialect is the impression of a nasal, squeaky voice.)


Not to mention the oleaginous and 'ever so 'umble' Uriah Heep. And others; "The Merchant of Venice"?? Dickens takes stereotypes to absolute extremes.

To make a point in praise of Charles Dickens; it's often some of the funniest writing I've ever read. "Great Expectations" is very funny, even when it isn't meant to be; for example, the opening chapter when the young Pip is turned upside down by Magwitch - the magnificent cinematic description of what he can see!! The theft of the pork pie. Pumblechook and "tar"!! The tumbling Drummels; being brought up 'by hand'. Trabb's boy. And the coup de grace; Wopsle's appearance (in Chapter 31) as Hamlet. One of the funniest chapters in English literature.

So much to love and enjoy. And Dombey and Son with its linguistic cadences...the movement of the clock and the seasons to align with the ships of Dom-bey - and Son. And AD having no biblical connection, only to signify "Anno Dom-bey and Son".

BRILLIANT.


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## Rogerx

Aladdin 2019 Dancing with Jasmine
Love this.


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## jegreenwood

Christabel said:


> I did hear about that long production but as George Cukor once said about "A Star is Born" and its length, "there is only so much the human **** can stand"!!! The BBC seems to have run a TV series on "Bleak House".


_Nich Nick_, as it was known, was a sellout hit in NY, and I believe, in London. Most people saw it in one day, 1:00 - 11:00 pm. I did, and I was not bored for a instant. It was shown on television in four ~2 hour episodes. There was a DVD, but it was poorly done.

There's also a 2 hour movie version that's pretty good.

At about the same time, I also saw Samuel Beckett's _Rockaby_ with Billie Whitelaw, for whom he wrote it. That play lasted 15 minutes. Both are among my top ten theatergoing experiences.


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## Rogerx

My favourite scene of the film Cabaret (1972) by Bob Fosse.


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## jegreenwood

Rogerx said:


> My favourite scene of the film Cabaret (1972) by Bob Fosse.


I was just thinking yesterday that this thread needs some Fosse.


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## jegreenwood

I was thinking of this.






Alas, Shirley MacLaine, while a competent dancer, was no Gwen Verdon (who originated the part on stage). But we do get Chita Rivera and Paula Kelly i this scene. Chita got to appear with Gwen in the original Broadway production of _Chicago_, also directed by Fosse.


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## Guest

I'm enjoying the pleasure of music, musical lectures (Ravel) and singing and dancing on the screen. (This is largely because right now Covid-19 has reared its head again and everybody is wearing masks and too afraid to visit anybody, as well as shopping centres. We're all double-vaccinated but it hasn't made any difference because many of us are stick stuck inside; it has actually belled the cat on our total 'booster dependence'!!)

This is always an absolute pleasure - in no small part because of Salinger's wonderful orchestration:


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## Rogerx

It's Today | Mame | Warner Archive






Lucille Ball - We Need a Little Christmas - Mame

I do like this movie, it is kitsch I know but I have fun with it once a year.


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## Guest

I'd have to say this is an absolute favourite:


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## jegreenwood

Rogerx said:


> It's Today | Mame | Warner Archive
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lucille Ball - We Need a Little Christmas - Mame
> 
> I do like this movie, it is kitsch I know but I have fun with it once a year.


First show I saw on Broadway without my parents. My introduction to Angela Lansbury (except for _The Manchurian Candidate_.


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## jegreenwood

Christabel said:


> I'd have to say this is an absolute favourite:


Agreed. Because of its Broadway background, I prefer it to _Singing in the Rain_.


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## jegreenwood

Christabel said:


> I'm enjoying the pleasure of music, musical lectures (Ravel) and singing and dancing on the screen. (This is largely because right now Covid-19 has reared its head again and everybody is wearing masks and too afraid to visit anybody, as well as shopping centres. We're all double-vaccinated but it hasn't made any difference because many of us are stick stuck inside; it has actually belled the cat on our total 'booster dependence'!!)
> 
> This is always an absolute pleasure - in no small part because of Salinger's wonderful orchestration:


Read your post while waiting for my at-home test result. Fortunately negative.

I was exposed last week at a 2.5 hour dinner. We were all vaccinated, and the person in question had tested negative earlier that day. But the next morning he tested positive (and developed symptoms). NYC is scary once again.


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## Guest

jegreenwood said:


> Agreed. Because of its Broadway background, I prefer it to _Singing in the Rain_.


I think Vincente Minnelli's stature as a great American director will only grow in coming decades!! Having read his biography some years ago, his earlier successes were on Broadway. In "The Bandwagon" Minnelli/Comden/Green were describing a Broadway they knew very well in the same way that Powell and Pressburger did with theatre people in 'The Red Shoes'. My friend who worked for decades as a Stage Manager in the London West East theatre and at Sadlers Wells has attested to that fact!!

Yesterday, during century-temperatures, I watched "The Bandwagon" again. It's regarded as arguably the greatest film musical from the golden era of MGM; the contest seems to be between "Singing' in the Rain" and "The Bandwagon", with "An American in Paris" in that mix. The film is flawed because, at times, the plot just overwhelms the music - which is itself unusual, since plot is usually there exclusively at the service of the music - and it all becomes noisy and tedious!! Dietz and Schwartz were not considered then to be first order composers of the stature of many we've talked about here on the pages but I get back to what Andre Previn said about Conrad Salinger, who worked on the orchestrations; that he could make a tune like "Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star" sound like "Daphnis and Chloe"!!

Undoubtedly, though, "The Girl Hunt" ballet is a complete masterpiece of choreography, dancing, direction, orchestration, costume and production design (Minnelli's forte). It's right up there, in my opinion, with the ballet from "An American in Paris" at the apogee of cinematic musicals. The great artistry and aesthetic from the Freed Unit at this time cannot be underestimated (I'm sure you don't!) and I doubt we'll see its like again. And yet Freed didn't think they were creating something 'artful', just entertainment. If you think about it, wasn't that exactly what Haydn and Mozart were doing??!!

I've come back to edit this because I forgot about the _ballets_ in those Rodgers and Hammerstein musicals as part of that apogee I was talking about. Surely Jerome Robbins's "_House of Uncle Thomas_" in "The King and I" is an unqualified masterpiece. These musicals were, of course, directly taken from the Broadway stage where they had a life of their own - which is quite different from the devised musicals for the Freed Unit.


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## Rogerx

What a comforting thing to know-Richard Chamberlain






The Slipper and the Rose waltz

Two others ( from one movie) close to my heart


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## SanAntone

Christabel said:


> I'd have to say this is an absolute favourite:


Absolutely fantastic!


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## SanAntone

Fred Astaire & Gene Kelly- The Babbitt and the Bromide


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## Guest

SanAntone said:


> Fred Astaire & Gene Kelly- The Babbitt and the Bromide


This is from "Ziegfeld Follies"?? A wonderful film, full of surprises. What about this!!!


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## Rogerx

Cabaret ~ If You Could See






Cabaret - Cabaret (1972)


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## Rogerx

Robbie Williams | De-Lovely: The Wedding Singer | On the set


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## jegreenwood

Rogerx said:


> Robbie Williams | De-Lovely: The Wedding Singer | On the set


Kevin Kline can not only do Cole Porter - he's not bad at G&S either. This is from a film version of _The Pirates of Penzance_.






It's good, but his performance live in Central Park (which I saw) is even better. It's worth watching just for the glimpses of the conductor.






Oh - and his Mabel on stage and screen was Linda Ronstadt.


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## jegreenwood

He could handle the patter songs too.


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## Rogerx

Trip a Little Light Fantastic (From "Mary Poppins Returns")
Looks good , it's on telly this Christmas


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## Guest

Very difficult musical lines to sing, EXTRAORDINARY choreography and dancing, and phenomenal cinematography!! The absolute apogee of the American Musical Theatre, put onto film.






I call this "contrapuntal choreography" and I think some here will get my meaning!!


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## Rogerx

Christabel said:


> Very difficult musical lines to sing, EXTRAORDINARY choreography and dancing, and phenomenal cinematography!! The absolute apogee of the American Musical Theatre, put onto film.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I call this "contrapuntal choreography" and I think some here will get my meaning!!


I can't wait to see the new Movie .


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## Guest

Rogerx said:


> I can't wait to see the new Movie .


It was the 1961 film I was talking about but, yes, the new one I'm looking forward to as well. "West Side Story" is an unqualified MASTERPIECE.


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## Guest

OMG, listen to this exquisite performance of "One Hand, One Heart" by Richard Muenz - a personal favourite of Leonard Bernstein. I've got goosebumps listening to his magnificent sonority. This comes from a CD given to me by a teaching colleague - a huge compliment!!


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## Rogerx

Christabel said:


> OMG, listen to this exquisite performance of "One Hand, One Heart" by Richard Muenz - a personal favourite of Leonard Bernstein. I've got goosebumps listening to his magnificent sonority. This comes from a CD given to me by a teaching colleague - a huge compliment!!


Outstanding, good find.
Merry Christmas Christabel


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## Rogerx

This is a dance from the movie Another Cinderella Story.
Drew Seeley as Joey and Selena Gomez as Mary.


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## Rogerx

Just Dance 2015: Let It Go from Disney's Frozen


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## Guest

Absolute gold!! Photography by Roland "Rollie" Totheroh.


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## Rogerx

King Herod's Song (From "Jesus Christ Superstar" Soundtrack)
Artiest
Joshua Mostel
Album
King Herod's Song
Auteurs
Tim Rice


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## jegreenwood

Christabel said:


> Absolute gold!! Photography by Roland "Rollie" Totheroh.


I have never laughed harder watching a movie than I did through the first half of _Modern Times_. After that I was simply too tired.


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## jegreenwood

Rogerx said:


> King Herod's Song (From "Jesus Christ Superstar" Soundtrack)
> Artiest
> *Joshua Mostel
> *Album
> King Herod's Song
> Auteurs
> Tim Rice


Zero Mostel's son.


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## Rogerx

Jesus Christ Superstar Simon Zealotes


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## Guest

jegreenwood said:


> I have never laughed harder watching a movie than I did through the first half of _Modern Times_. After that I was simply too tired.


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## jegreenwood

Christabel said:


>


I shouldn't have watched that while eating lunch.


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## Guest

OK, it's all rather muddled - the difference between a band and a 'symphony' - but it's clever nevertheless:


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## Rogerx

West Side Story - Prologue - Official Full Number - 50th Anniversary (HD)
The BBC showed this version yesterday and had a documentary about the new one. 
I recorded it both


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## Rogerx

The dance clip "Boogie Wonderland" from the movie Happy Feet.

To make a smile on your faces.


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## jegreenwood

Rogerx said:


> The dance clip "Boogie Wonderland" from the movie Happy Feet.
> 
> To make a smile on your faces.


The dancing was modeled on Savion Glover.


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## Rogerx

SISTER ACT 2 | Get Up Offa That Thing/Dancing In The Street


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## Rogerx

South Pacific musical


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## Guest

I loved this number from "South Pacific" but especially the wonderful cinematography and filters of the great Leon Shamroy. He filled that ToddAO screen to perfection. And I felt Mitzi Gaynor was under-rated for her performance.

The orchestration for the musical was exceptional, though I'm unsure how much of the original Robert Russell Bennett was there!! I saw the film when I was still and child and it was one of half a dozen seminal experiences which propelled me towards a life-time love of cinema. Especially the Todd-AO process and those larger-than-life screen presences. 

Back at home afterwards all I could do was dream about what I'd seen and my head was in the clouds for a long time. Intoxicating. Dreaming of working in the cinema myself, I ended up behind the cameras in television!!


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## Guest

I have to include this from "South Pacific" but not from the soundtrack; a much better version by Bryn Terfel. "This Nearly Was Mine". Just magnificent:


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## Guest

Here's Bryn Terfel singing "It Might as Well be Spring" by Rodgers & Hammerstein from "State Fair". I think Tefel has a slight speech impediment and has trouble with the letter "N", if you look closely. It's a glorious song:






About four years ago our friends (and erstwhile neighbours) went on a cruise; destination forgotten. She came over to me when she returned and said, "there was a singer performing on that cruise you maybe have heard of; Bryn Terfel"!! She said he was 'pretty good'!!!


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## jegreenwood

Here's the great Ezio Pinza singing "Some Enchanted Evening" from the 1949 original cast recording.


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## Guest

jegreenwood said:


> Here's the great Ezio Pinza singing "Some Enchanted Evening" from the 1949 original cast recording.


Joshua Logan produced the film as well as the stage production of "*South Pacific*". He turned his hand to film ("Bus Stop", "Picnic"- from the stage play he produced - and "Sayonara" were his other favourites of mine). As with "South Pacific", Logan painted "*Picnic*" on a broad canvas, though it was essentially a 'chamber play'. He had to succeed with that because it was shot by the great James Wong Howe. It's my second favourite film of all time. Rosalind Russell turned in a stunning performance.


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## Rogerx

Carmen Jones (1955): "Beat Out dat Rhythm on a Drum" - Pearl Bailey - Full Song/ Dance - Musicals


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## Guest

I grew up with the LP of that soundtrack from "*Carmen Jones*"!! As a child I remember thinking it was terrific, and a great entree to Bizet's opera. The film was directed by Otto Preminger as was "Porgy and Bess" later.

This song is very sensual and 'primitive' in many ways. My father built our home hi-fi, complete with *ONE* big speaker, and used an old Garrard magnetic pick-up and we thought it was heaven way back then!! Even from the late 1950s the neighbours must have hated us with music like this roaring and my mother playing jazz on the piano and a friend accompanying her on bongo drums - and holding noisy parties!!


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## Rogerx

A scene from the 1933 film "Flying Down to Rio," with Fred Astaire, Ginger Rogers, Gene Raymond and Dolores Del Rio


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## Guest

The wonders of back-projection!! And those diaphanous tops the girls are wearing: pre Code!!!


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## Guest

I've read this; highly recommended.


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## Rogerx

The Lonely Goatherd" - THE SOUND OF MUSIC (1965)
This is really funny:lol:


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## jegreenwood

Rogerx said:


> A scene from the 1933 film "Flying Down to Rio," with Fred Astaire, Ginger Rogers, Gene Raymond and Dolores Del Rio


I was taken by the way Ginger grabs Fred to begin dancing. And the way she remains an equal partner during the dance. You don't get much sense of Fred leading. Is there another number where that was the case?


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## Guest




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## Guest




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## Guest

"Gee Mike, how about showing me some of those jerky moves" (Fred Astaire to Michael Kidd):


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## Rogerx

Vienna New Year's Concert 2014 - Lanner: The Romantics, Waltz op.167
Only dancing this time


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## Rogerx

I did record from the BBC 3 The Golden age of Broadway. Hopes it's comes om You Tube, for you all to watch.


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## Rogerx

Careless Rhapsody (From the Musical "By Jupiter")

Singing this time.


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## jegreenwood

Rogerx said:


> Careless Rhapsody (From the Musical "By Jupiter")
> 
> Singing this time.


Rodgers and Hart's last musical. I saw this production more than 50 years ago.






I became familiar with the song even earlier from _Ella Fitzgerald sings the Rodgers and Hart Songbook_. She also sings the lovely "Nobody's Heart."


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## jegreenwood

1964 - the year of parades. These three shows opened within several months of one another.


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## Guest

Rogerx said:


> Careless Rhapsody (From the Musical "By Jupiter")
> 
> Singing this time.


The melodic line sounds very similar to the type used by Jerome Kern, with usual modulations and unexpected melodic direction. Rodgers seemed to do this with the often-lachrymose lyrics of Hart. I note in this song, which I haven't heard before, that the lyrics are the main element!!


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## Rogerx

The dance-hall scene in Rose Marie (1936)






Rose-Marie Indian Dance


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## Guest

As a matter of fact, only in the last days have I been reading about Jeanette McDonald and her simultaneous relationship with husband Gene Raymond (who was gay) and Nelson Eddy. She came across as all sweetness and light but she had several illegitimate pregnancies with Eddy, losing all of them but one. It's a sordid story, really. Apparently the Gene Raymond marriage was yet another arranged by Louis B. Mayer.


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## Rogerx

The opening number from Gigi, performed by the incomparable Maurice Chevalier.
Bit risky the title but it was long before the me too [email protected]@@@@


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## Guest

My (pathetic) brother-in-law claims that Gigi is about pedophiles. I'm sure the original play by Colette and MGM's film had zero to do with that. The film yielded the most wonderful music and performances, not to mention (how can I resist?) the wonderful orchestrations of Conrad Salinger. Visually it was a feast too.

The film sets up two contrasting relationships; one about a girl emerging from puberty to adulthood and noticed by a sophisticated urban effete (Jourdan). This is contrasted with the aged, worldly Chevalier and his cynicism; he squandered those years and opportunity and urges Gaston not to do the same. The fate of Chevalier is to observe womanhood, starting with the gorgeous little girls from which they evolve:


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## Guest

Comparing the love-lorn young man with the cynical philanderer: a song about regret and youthful hubris.


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## jegreenwood

Well, during much of the movie, Gigi is being trained to be a courtesan - by her great aunt. You have to admit that's a little strange. Naturally, this was all clear to me when I first saw it at age 7. :lol:

By the way, _Gigi_ had previously been adapted for the stage (non-musical) - starring Audrey Hepburn on Broadway.


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## Guest

jegreenwood said:


> Well, during much of the movie, Gigi is being trained to be a courtesan - by her great aunt. You have to admit that's a little strange. Naturally, this was all clear to me when I first saw it at age 7. :lol:
> 
> By the way, _Gigi_ had previously been adapted for the stage (non-musical) - starring Audrey Hepburn on Broadway.


But not un *UNDER-AGE* courtesan. There's the difference.


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## Rogerx

Cyndi Lauper's official music video for 'The Goonies 'R' Good Enough'. Click to listen to Cyndi 
Saw this when it came out.


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## jegreenwood

Christabel said:


> But not un *UNDER-AGE* courtesan. There's the difference.


According to Colette, Gigi was 16. I guess it depends on local law.

And bear in mind - Lerner wasn't afraid to aim younger.









Edit - I tried to delete the second image, which is from a theatre review, as I thought it was inappropriate here, but for some reason it stayed. Admins - feel free._ [Deleted it - Art Rock]_

Further edit - I am a big fan of the novel.


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## Guest

Don't forget popular culture's fascination with the teenager..."Happy Birthday, Sweet 16" and so on, ad infinitum.


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## Rogerx

Christabel said:


> Don't forget popular culture's fascination with the teenager..."Happy Birthday, Sweet 16" and so on, ad infinitum.


Almost them Sam Cooke - Only Sixteen know my mother use to look a bit shocked when it was on the radio ,


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## Rogerx

Swing Kids (1993) - The Benny Goodman Orchestra - Sing, Sing, Sing


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## jegreenwood

Rogerx said:


> Almost them Sam Cooke - Only Sixteen know my mother use to look a bit shocked when it was on the radio ,


Try "So Young" by the Rolling Stones. Your mother would have thrown the radio out the window.


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## Rogerx

jegreenwood said:


> Try "So Young" by the Rolling Stones. Your mother would thrown the radio out the window.


She died a few weeks ago  
On a very old age I must say


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## jegreenwood

Rogerx said:


> Swing Kids (1993) - The Benny Goodman Orchestra - Sing, Sing, Sing


Three minutes of pure musical energy.


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## jegreenwood

So sorry to hear that.


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## Guest

I really love this and seeing all the 'swan's down' floating off Ginger's dress during the dance; only possible through restoration.






Americans are serious about film restoration, thank 'heaven'!!


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## Rogerx

Ann-Margret hot dance with Elvis Presley in Viva Las Vegas
Was on the BBC yesterday, recorded it for a rainy day.


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## jegreenwood

Got a notice of program changes (Covid related) to NYC Ballet's Winter Season. Looks like I'll be seeing Balanchine's "Slaughter on Tenth Avenue." The ballet derives from his choreography for Rodgers and Hart's _On Your Toes_. Here's the version he created for the film. According to what I've read, the choreography in _Words and Music_ is not his.






I knew Eddie Albert did musical theater, but I had never seen him dancing before I watched this. It does look like he needed a bit of help, though. Despite a distinguished career, my generation knows him best as the star of the hit TV series _Green Acres_.


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## Guest

This film sounds very late 1930s and those (sped-up?) dancers en pointe at the beginning are slightly ridiculous. Zorina was married to Balanchine at the time? I prefer the (revised) choreography of "Slaughter" by Gene Kelly used in "_Words and Music_" and danced by Vera-Ellen. And I think the music is better than the ballet.

Who the heck was Ray Enright? The film has some distinguished production crew, though: James Wong Howe, Sol Polito, Robert Burks (Hitchock's cinematographer) and Orry-Kelly (Australian) costumes, Ray Heindorf (orchestration).

I noticed that "On Your Toes" has that typical WB orchestration at the beginning which is nothing like that of the orchestration of the ballet itself!! (For me the opening title music is straight Ray Heindorf, who orchestrated all WB films, including "The Roaring Twenties", and was their long-time orchestrator up to "A Star is Born" in the early 50s and beyond.)






And "On Your Toes" title music also sounds like the opening of the same film, "The Roaring Twenties" (Raoul Walsh)






By the way, "The Roaring Twenties" is a very well-made film.


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## Rogerx

Fantasia 1940 - Bubble Dance
Time for some lightness


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## jegreenwood

Wonderful, even if I start singing, "Hello Muddah, hello fadduh."


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## jegreenwood

Here's Sara Mearns describing her work on the NYCB version of "Slaughter on Tenth Avenue."


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## MAS

Christabel said:


> My (pathetic) brother-in-law claims that Gigi is about pedophiles. I'm sure the original play by Colette and MGM's film had zero to do with that. The film yielded the most wonderful music and performances, not to mention (how can I resist?) the wonderful orchestrations of Conrad Salinger. Visually it was a feast too.
> 
> The film sets up two contrasting relationships; one about a girl emerging from puberty to adulthood and noticed by a sophisticated urban effete (Jourdan). This is contrasted with the aged, worldly Chevalier and his cynicism; he squandered those years and opportunity and urges Gaston not to do the same. The fate of Chevalier is to observe womanhood, starting with the gorgeous little girls from which they evolve:


I've always loved *Gigi* and was fascinated by the premise of "training" a courtesan, sanitized by the play and later movie by the addition of music and comedy.


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## Rogerx

Maxim Kozhevnikov & Yulia Zagoruychenko - Show Dance "The Mask"


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## Guest

I'm not contributing here to this forum anymore as I've received an 'infraction' like a naughtly little child. All the while vicious individuals who cannot be controlled continue to post here. I'm done with this. Cheers everybody and thanks for great contributions.


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## Rogerx

I hope your well and reconsider.






The Man Who Knew Too Little -Dance scene


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## Gargamel

Rogerx said:


> She died a few weeks ago
> On a very old age I must say


Losing a parent hurts like hell, I know. Condolences.


----------

