# Ockeghem



## John Browne

Great composer, said to have a great bass voice himself.
















What is happening in the last video is that there are two melodies each being sung by two voices each (soprano/alto and tenor/bass) and each voice in turn is singing at different speeds from each other.
Which is awesome.


----------



## John Browne

Here Ockegham wrote something that can be sung in either the Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian or Mixolydian modes.
Which again is awesome.


----------



## aleazk

One of my favorite composers of the period. His polyphonic technique is very characteristic.


----------



## Manxfeeder

He's also one of my all-time favorite composers. He didn't write much, but what he did write is amazing and varied.


----------



## Novelette

aleazk said:


> One of my favorite composers of the period. His polyphonic technique is very characteristic.


Characteristic indeed!

It makes me cringe when I hear people say [admittedly, the topic seldom arises] that the 1450 - 1600 polyphonic composers are indistinguishable.


----------



## Blake

*Johannes Ockeghem*









Born: c. 1410; Burgundy Died: February 6, 1497; France Period: Renaissance

The birth of one of the most renowned singers and composers of the entire fifteenth century remains unfortunately shrouded in mystery. Though later poetic and archival sources confirm Johannes Ockeghem's birthplace, in the French-speaking province of Hainaut (modern-day Belgium, but at that time a part of the Duchy of Burgundy), only broad guesses may be advanced for his birthdate. A well-known poem laments his death "before reaching one hundred years," and a manuscript illustration of the French Royal chapel pictures one prominent aged figure with wrinkled skin and thick glasses. However, a visiting Italian as late as 1477 described Ockeghem as yet beautiful and utterly dignified in manner. Whatever his age, by the 1440s and 1450s, Jean de Okeghem (as many contemporary French documents call him) was well on the way to a musical career of international renown. He can reliably be documented in service as a singer at the Church of Our Lady in Antwerp at least from June 1443 till June 1444 and in the private chapel of the French Duke of Bourbon at Moulins from 1446 to 1448. In 1450, he began serving the Kings of France directly, and would remain to his death the jewel in the crown of the French Royal Chapel.

Ockeghem served three successive Kings over nearly 50 years: Charles VII (until the monarch's death in 1461, for which the Requiem may have been composed), Louis XI (1461-1483), and Charles VIII. As early as 1454, court registers record Ockeghem giving a songbook to the King personally; these refer to him as premier chapellain. Along with this prestigious title, Charles VII named Ockeghem to the powerful and lucrative post of Treasurer of the Abbey of St. Martin in Tours, the wealthy monastery of which the King was himself titular Abbot. Then, in 1464, Louis XI elevated him to be called Maistre de la chapelle de chant du roy; the distinguished singer and composer would hold all three titles until his death. In addition, he held benefice incomes such as a canonicate at Notre Dame in Paris (later exchanged for one at St. Benoit, Paris). He appears not to have traveled much, though in 1464 he visited Guillaume Dufay in Cambrai, and in 1470 journeyed to Spain. His will in 1484 endowed the chapter of St. Martin with his goods and income; this may have been in response to an illness. His death, however, (apparently in retirement) did not occur until 1497.

Ockeghem enjoyed a stellar reputation among contemporary musicians as well as his employers. He apparently knew Gilles Binchois, composer to the Burgundian Court, for whom he composed the lament Mort, tu as navré in 1460. In turn, Antoine Busnois, singer of the count of Charolais (soon to be Duke of Burgundy) honored Ockeghem with the motet In hydraulis in 1465-1467. Johannes Tinctoris, theorist and composer, called Ockeghem the first among all the most excellent composers of his time, and even Duke Galeazzo Maria Sforza of far-off Milan sought his assistance in the recruitment of singers. Upon Ockeghem's death, laments were composed by some of the greatest figures of his age, including poets (Guillaume Crétin and Jean Molinet), composer (Josquin Desprez, who's "Deploration sur la mort d'Ockeghem" is a masterpiece), and thinker (Erasmus of Rotterdam).
To modern ears, the music of Ockeghem is characterized by non-pulsative (irregular yet flowing) rhythms that are more the result of counterpoint, low velvety textures from the male choir and a subtle use of imitation. This imparts a mystical, revelatory and inspired quality, especially in the Masses. Ockeghem's "Missa prolationum" consists entirely of mensuration canons, combining the cerebral in organization with the emotional is expression. His "Missa mimi" is a highly characteristic masterpiece. Ockeghem also composed Motets and lovely two, three and four part Chansons.

- As seen on arkivmusic

The Tallis Scholars:


----------



## Headphone Hermit

there's a bargain 5 CD box set on Gaudeamus that is very enjoyable but one of the oddest discs I have is a version of his Requiem performed by Schola Gregoriana Silesiensis that sounds like he lived closer to the Urals than Flanders


----------



## Manxfeeder

Hmm, I didn't recognize him without his glasses. 

He's one of my favorite composers.


----------



## Chad

Ockeghem was the J S Bach of his time. Truely a master of counterpoint and beyond.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

A totally cerebral composer with no aesthetic consideration whatsoever, like any other mid 20th century composer.

<I'm joking on his reputation and that his works were rediscovered around that time>


----------



## LHB

Yep. You're completely correct. All this time I've been deluding myself into thinking Dutilleux Cello Concerto, Gerhard Symphony 1, Bartok PC 3, and, Scelsi Sonata 3 were something besides mere cerebral exercises. I have seen the light.


----------



## Aggelos

And this one features Richard Egarr's arrangement for *Ockeghem's motet Intemerata Dei Mater* in the Stokowski style.










http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/6907
http://www.allmusic.com/album/an-evening-with-leopold-stokowski-mw0002096609
http://www.glossamusic.com/glossa/reference.aspx?id=217


----------



## Manxfeeder

Aggelos said:


> And this one features Richard Egarr's arrangement for *Ockeghem's motet Intemerata Dei Mater* in the Stokowski style.


What the What? It sounds like it would be something that's all kinds of wrong, but actually, from the clip I heard, it has a reminiscence of what Vaughan-Williams did to Thomas Tallis.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

LHB said:


> Yep. You're completely correct. All this time I've been deluding myself into thinking Dutilleux Cello Concerto, Gerhard Symphony 1, Bartok PC 3, and, Scelsi Sonata 3 were something besides mere cerebral exercises. I have seen the light.


Yes, I been looking hard at the Missa mimi. Flowing melodies, resonant dissonance and canonical techniques are absolutely abhorrent no matter the era.


----------



## Mandryka

I'm really enjoying The Sound and The Fury's muscular performance of the Missa Prolationum. 

Has anyone heard Lucian Kandel/ Musica Ars Nova sing this mass? I'm wondering whether to buy the recording.


----------



## Chordalrock

Mandryka said:


> I'm really enjoying The Sound and The Fury's muscular performance of the Missa Prolationum.


Is that the 2013 recording paired with "Mass in Any Mode"? They also recorded it in 2008 with a largely different line-up. It's easily different enough that you should hear that too if you're interested in different recordings of the mass.


----------



## Mandryka

Chordalrock said:


> Is that the 2013 recording paired with "Mass in Any Mode"? They also recorded it in 2008 with a largely different line-up. It's easily different enough that you should hear that too if you're interested in different recordings of the mass.


Oh yes, I see that now, and it's got Homme Armé with it, which I like but I haven't found a satisfying recording. I take your mention as a recommendation and I shall order it forthwith.


----------



## Chordalrock

Mandryka said:


> Oh yes, I see that now, and it's got Homme Armé with it, which I like but I haven't found a satisfying recording. I take your mention as a recommendation and I shall order it forthwith.


It's less muscular, more 'sensitive' in some sense, slightly distant, with a fine female superius. The Agnus Dei from the Missa L'homme arme is one of my favorite pieces, and they do it exquisitely, though I'm a fan of the Clerks too in that movement.

By the way, I realised you meant Ensemble Musica Nova with respect to your earlier question. I haven't heard their Missa Prolationum, but many of their other recordings are on Spotify, so you can get an idea of their style by listening to something like their Missa Cuiusvis Toni. I think they have good balance, and seem generally like a solid ensemble, their tempos for the Prolationum seem to be considerably slower than those of Sound and the Fury, judging from the total playtime.


----------



## Mandryka

Chordalrock said:


> The Agnus Dei from the Missa L'homme arme is one of my favorite pieces, and they do it exquisitely, though I'm a fan of the Clerks too in that movement.


Th Clerks Group choose a good tempo for the Agnus Dei. What I've decided is this: small forces make these masses approach prayers, spontaneous prayers; large forces make them sound like rehearsed performances. I'm still awaiting The Sound and The Fury.


----------



## Chordalrock

Mandryka said:


> Th Clerks Group choose a good tempo for the Agnus Dei.


Yeah, there's something about this movement that works really well in this tempo even though in some other movements a similar tempo comes across as too fast for me, and of course the Sound and the Fury are a lot slower here. Both have a very different sound and style which I think their chosen tempos support nicely. The Clerks are maybe a little too monotone for slow tempos, and their great strength is their rhythmic clarity & drive anyway, so they get to showcase that by choosing somewhat faster tempos than you might expect.


----------



## Mandryka

I may be imagining it, but I think that the second M. Prolationum from Sound and Fury gives a far stronger impression of responsive and interactive singing. In the first, everything is transparent but it's colder, more abstract. so all the inner voices are clear to hear, but it is not as _alive_. I feel similarly about the l'homme Armé mass.


----------



## Chordalrock

Mandryka said:


> I may be imagining it, but I think that the second M. Prolationum from Sound and Fury gives a far stronger impression of responsive and interactive singing. In the first, everything is transparent but it's colder, more abstract. so all the inner voices are clear to hear, but it is not as _alive_. I feel similarly about the l'homme Armé mass.


I hear them like this as well. I think the differences are so clear that it would be hard not to agree with you to some extent.


----------



## Chordalrock

A glorious performance of Missa Mi mi:






This is the credo, the rest are on youtube as well.


----------



## Mandryka

Yes the credo is a good test piece and the performance is very fine, they manage to keep the sense of moving forward and to tell a story with the music. 

Having said that, you completely spoiled all other versions for me by putting me on to the one from Cappella Pratensis, somehow I find it really painful to go back to a regular stand and deliver sing forth style like this one. But that's just me probably.


----------



## Chordalrock

The Beauty Farm Ockeghem album was released earlier this month, I just noticed.


----------



## Mandryka

Be sure to check out the L'Homme Armé from Ensmble Nusmido, which is very much in the Rebecca Stewart mould.

http://www.erhardt-martin.de/nusmido_eng.html


----------



## thejewk

I purchased a Hilliard Ensemble box on Erato called Franco-Flemish Masterpieces, and other than some irritating clicks (mastered from vinyl?) on the first CD, I have been blown away by the Ockeghem pieces. I'm currently half way through my nth visit of the Missa Prolationum, and its beauty has not been dimmed by repetition.

I think I'll have to invest in some more Ockeghem.


----------



## SanAntone

I like *Graindelavoix* led by Björn Schmelzer

View attachment 144918


*JOHANNES OCKEGHEM - Missa Caput & Parisian machicotage* from the Mandatum Ritual

1 mandatum novum
2 kyrie
3 diligamus nos invicem
4 gloria
5 in diebus illis
6 credo
7 maria ergo
8 sanctus
9 vos vocatis me
10 agnus dei
11 venit ad petrum


----------



## flamencosketches

I can highly recommend the Orland Consort Missa De plus en plus on Archiv, but beyond that I don't know much Ockeghem. I have been looking at that Hilliard box.


----------



## Mandryka

> Parisian machicotage


WTF is that


----------



## SanAntone

thejewk said:


> I purchased a Hilliard Ensemble box on Erato called Franco-Flemish Masterpieces, and other than some irritating clicks (mastered from vinyl?) on the first CD, I have been blown away by the Ockeghem pieces. I'm currently half way through my nth visit of the Missa Prolationum, and its beauty has not been dimmed by repetition.
> 
> I think I'll have to invest in some more Ockeghem.


The Hilliard Ensemble is a reliable group for early music. The English vocal ensemble style has come under some criticism as being to "angelic" and not exhibiting enough character that might be heard in groups from the Netherlands.



flamencosketches said:


> I can highly recommend the Orland Consort Missa De plus en plus on Archiv, but beyond that I don't know much Ockeghem. I have been looking at that Hilliard box.


Orlando Consort is very good. Cappella Pratensis, Beauty Farm, The Sound and the Fury, Diabolus in Musica, The Clerks' Group all have done some Ockeghem that is worth hearing. However, Ockeghem has not received the kind of complete treatment (other than from the Clerks' Group) that other early music composers have enjoyed.


----------



## thejewk

flamencosketches said:


> I can highly recommend the Orland Consort Missa De plus en plus on Archiv, but beyond that I don't know much Ockeghem. I have been looking at that Hilliard box.


I'd say that if you are interested in more than just Ockeghem, the box is superb. If you are just interested in Ockeghem, having half of his pieces on the set compromised by irritating clicks makes it hard for me to recommend it, even if the performances are excellent to my ear. It's less of a problem on speakers, but on headphones, where I do most of my listening, I am finding it distracting.

I am probably going to pick up an MP3 copy of the Ockeghem Collection on Gandeamus by the Clerk's Group. The CD box is horrendously priced, the MP3s reasonable.


----------



## Mandryka

thejewk said:


> I'd say that if you are interested in more than just Ockeghem, the box is superb. If you are just interested in Ockeghem, having half of his pieces on the set compromised by irritating clicks makes it hard for me to recommend it, even if the performances are excellent to my ear. It's less of a problem on speakers, but on headphones, where I do most of my listening, I am finding it distracting.
> 
> I
> .


I must say I can't hear this at all on speakers, and it makes me wonder whether you've got a poor transfer.


----------



## thejewk

Mandryka said:


> I must say I can't hear this at all on speakers, and it makes me wonder whether you've got a poor transfer.


If it is a transfer problem, it sounds exactly the same on the Spotify upload, so I guess it's possible that an earlier edition of the box has fine sound and mine and the Spotify version are later. It sounds like someone is occasionally turning a page right by the microphone, or maybe tapping a pencil on some paper, but could easily be an occasional pop from a vinyl transfer after the major surface noise has been EQ'd off. It's not major, but I have a really sensitive ear and small erratic interruptions like this spoil my listening experience far more than consistent loud surface noise or the like.


----------



## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> I can highly recommend the Orland Consort Missa De plus en plus on Archiv, but beyond that I don't know much Ockeghem. I have been looking at that Hilliard box.


You should maybe try to get the Clerks Group big set, for me the performances are very satisfying. The music is the sort of thing that takes a lifetime to get to know, so provided you don't lose interest, the box will be a long term source of pleasure.

It's odd how Ockeghem, who was for a long time berated as an academic composer, at least in the first 75 years of the last century, turns out for me to be a summit of 15th century music.


----------



## SanAntone

thejewk said:


> If it is a transfer problem, it sounds exactly the same on the Spotify upload, so I guess it's possible that an earlier edition of the box has fine sound and mine and the Spotify version are later. It sounds like someone is occasionally turning a page right by the microphone, or maybe tapping a pencil on some paper, but could easily be an occasional pop from a vinyl transfer after the major surface noise has been EQ'd off. It's not major, but I have a really sensitive ear and small erratic interruptions like this spoil my listening experience far more than consistent loud surface noise or the like.


Which tracks? I'm listening on Spotify right now to Missa Mi-Mi and don't hear any clicks or anything.


----------



## thejewk

The first cd, you can hear it especially throughout the requiem.


----------



## SanAntone

thejewk said:


> The first cd, you can hear it especially throughout the requiem.


I'm not hearing what I would describe as a bad transfer. But I do hear some extraneous sounds, maybe a foot fall, or a consonantal end breath - normal sounds that would occur during a performance.


----------



## gvn

Novelette said:


> Originally Posted by *aleazk*
> One of my favorite composers of the period. His polyphonic technique is very characteristic.
> 
> 
> 
> Characteristic indeed!
> 
> It makes me cringe when I hear people say [admittedly, the topic seldom arises] that the 1450 - 1600 polyphonic composers are indistinguishable.
Click to expand...

This exchange has set me thinking.

I can describe readily enough what is distinctive about the _technique_ of Ockeghem's music. But what about its _character?_

I mean, it's almost a cliché to say that Palestrina is the most serene of the great Renaissance composers, Victoria the most warm-hearted, Lassus the most dramatic, Byrd the most unsettled, Obrecht the most single-minded, Josquin the most myriad-minded (Coleridge's description of Shakespeare), de la Rue, perhaps, the most serious-minded, etc., etc. All such labels are gross oversimplifications, almost libels, and we can debate their precise degree of aptness or lack thereof, but they do convey _something_ about what is distinctive in each composer's music.

But Ockeghem? How would you describe the distinctive character of his music? That seems to me rather more elusive, more difficult to pin down. What would folks here say?

[Afterthought: Or is that exactly what _is_ distinctive about the character of Ockeghem's music--that it's more reticent than the other major Renaissance composers, less willing to wear its personality on its sleeve?]


----------



## Manxfeeder

gvn said:


> But Ockeghem? How would you describe the distinctive character of his music? That seems to me rather more elusive, more difficult to pin down. What would folks here say?


He's elusive because he keeps changing. He seems to be composing in order to present himself with new challenges, so as a result, he doesn't end up getting pigenholed into an easy description. So maybe elusive is the description.


----------



## cheregi

Ockeghem's chansons were pretty foundational for my interest in medieval and renaissance music, and after a long period of not listening to them I've stumbled upon Cut Circle's recordings of the complete set. These remain some of the most beguilingly beautiful examples of modal polyphony to me - the simultaneous melodies unspooling gradually in such a mysterious way. I think in Ockeghem's specific case the chansons might be as rewarding as the masses.

As for the question of performances - I don't think this should be sung like church music, and none of the available options are totally satisfying. I have a lot of affection for the Blue Heron set, but comparing them now to the Cut Circle, Blue Heron seems rather melodramatic and soloistic - slower tempi, plus leaving some of the vocal parts untexted, plus, I guess, just an embrace of certain tropes of 'emotive' singing which I tend to hear as distinctly modern and 'inauthentic' but who knows? In contrast, I appreciate Cut Circle's 'roughness' (thankfully quite distinct from the Beauty Farm school of 'roughness') and the nasally period-appropriate accents, which I think combine to give the music some bite, rhythmically and texturally.


----------



## Mandryka

I like Medieval Ensemble of London most.


----------



## Josquin13

I prefer the Ockeghem performances on Blue Heron's vol. 1 to Cut Circle's complete set, but am glad to own both, since the interpretations & approaches are so different. & I agree with Mandryka that the Medieval Ensemble of London's 1980s set is arguably the version of choice here among complete surveys (& did you know that the Davies brother's singers included members of the Hilliard Ensemble back in the 1980s?):






However, there are two single discs of selected Ockeghem chansons (& motets) that are likewise exceptional, & arguably among the best on record--from (1) La Main Harmonique, and (2) Vox Luminis and Romanesque.

I acquired the Vox Luminis and Romanesque recordings in the "The Flemish Polyphony" or "La Polyphonie Flamende" box set released by the Ricercar label (and if interested, this whole set is very recommendable): https://www.amazon.com/Flemish-Poly...lyphony+box+set&qid=1611693733&s=music&sr=1-1. Although the performances were previously released on a single, now 'out of print' Ricercar CD: https://www.amazon.com/Ockeghem-Cha...nesque+ockeghem&qid=1611694492&s=music&sr=1-1. I'm not sure whether the single Vox Luminis recording of Ockeghem's"Mort tu as navré de ton dart" was ever available separately, but it may have been. Interestingly, "Mort tu as navré" is a lamentation on the death of the Burgundian composer, Gilles Binchois, who is thought to have been Ockeghem's teacher. It very likely served as the model for Josquin Desprez's later, famous lamentation on the death of his teacher, Ockeghem, "Nymphes des bois": 



. It always fascinates me when a great genius influences a paragon of genius. It doesn't happen often.






As for La Main Harmonique's disc of Ockeghem chansons & motets--which come coupled with songs by Loyset Compére, it's another favorite of mine. La Main Harmonique is a very underrated ensemble, IMO, and excel at this kind of repertory (& much else, for example, their remarkable recording of the "Clemens Deus Artifex": 



). I also think their pronunciation of the texts is superior to the other groups in this repertory (with the possible exception of Vox Luminis):










With that said, I'd get very excited if La Main Harmonique were to record some of Josquin and Dufay's music in the future--& perhaps some of Josquin works for this year's quincentenary of his death in 1521?, though that may be wishful thinking on my part, considering the present situation in the world with COVID-19.

In addition, there is a fine single disc of Ockeghem chansons--coupled with Missa "de plus en plus"-- from the Orlando Consort on Archiv that is well worth hearing: 



.

Finally, it might be worth staying up on the latest recordings by Ensemble Musica Nova, who have previously recorded a fine 2 CD set of Ockeghem's Missa "Cuiusvis toni", along with his motet, "Intemerata Dei Mater": 



. I think it's very possible that Ensemble Nova might record Ockeghem's chansons in the future...


----------



## cheregi

Josquin13 said:


> I prefer the Ockeghem performances on Blue Heron's vol. 1 to Cut Circle's complete set, but am glad to own both, since the interpretations & approaches are so different. & I agree with Mandryka that the Medieval Ensemble of London's 1980s set is arguably the version of choice here among complete surveys (& did you know that the Davies brother's singers included members of the Hilliard Ensemble back in the 1980s?):


Thank you for all these avenues to explore - I hadn't come across the Medieval Ensemble of London CD, and it's probably the earliest recording, by several years, of medieval/renaissance music that I've found really compelling. I especially like the way they use instruments, probably more than Blue Heron, but I'm not sure why. The bray harp especially fascinates me and I am excited to listen to more recordings featuring it.

I am enjoying the Vox Luminis and La Main Harmonique recordings as well - my initial impression is that both are a little more 'polite' than I would like, but I think that's a perfectly valid interpretive approach and I'm sure that as my feel for this repertoire changes, my preference along that axis will move around. I'm excited about La Main Harmonique's madrigal recordings as well, where to me their approach is more satisfying.

Have you listened to La Poeme Harmonique's recordings of 16th- and 17th-century French chansons? They sometimes have an almost 'folksy' or 'loose' feeling but in a totally controlled, or at least carefully directed, way, which is apparently based very closely on period sources regarding performance practice. To me it seems reasonable to suppose that Ockeghem chansons in his own time were performed even more 'loosely' but they are not sung that way today simply because there is less explicit instruction to do so in period sources (because of course there are fewer surviving period sources total). In other words, I don't see why what I'm shorthanding as 'politeness' should be a default...

I've heard the Ensemble Musica Nova recordings and would also be excited for some Ockeghem chansons from them, but overall I'm a little disappointed that after their Machaut motets recording they abandoned(? as far as I know) the vocal idiosyncrasies that made that disc special. An Ockeghem chansons disc in that style would be pretty close to ideal for me, I think.


----------



## Mandryka

These are some notes I made about one song



> I only know four vocal recordings of J'en ai deuil (that's modern spelling) - Cut Circle and Ensemble Gilles Binchois (in the collection called Chansons Françaises de la Renaissance) are both a cappella, and Philippe Malfeyrt and Medieval Ensemble of London, who both accompany with instruments, rather tastefully. Gilles Binchois the slowest and for that reason gives the impression of being particularly sensitive to the text. Cut Circle seems the most dramatic, madrigalesque almost. All are not without interest, my preference is for Ensemble Giles Binchois and Medieval Ensemble of London, the latter especially. There's a simplicity about what Medieval Ensemble of London do, there's lots of space and air in the texture, and the give me the impression of great authenticity.


----------



## cheregi

Mandryka said:


> These are some notes I made about one song


Just re-listened to about half of each of those performances - except Medieval Ensemble, whose recording of that specific song I couldn't find. But it's easy to imagine based on the very consistent sound of other parts of that disc. I absolutely hear what you mean about space and texture, I like that impression a lot. I also hear what you mean about Cut Circle being almost madrigalesque. I think it's in the Gilles Binchois recording, more than the others I heard, that the song itself emerges as something really interesting melodically and architecturally - I'll have to listen to the rest of that disc even though it's not Ockeghem-specific. As for Cut Circle - I really don't understand why certain affectations of 'emotive-ness' strike me as more authentic than others - something about Cut Circle's refusal to let an individual line or note 'soar' is what really appeals to me, I think - certainly their singing is far from subdued but it is more democratic. The comparison between Cut Circle and Blue Heron's Fors seullements is a good example of what I'm talking about.


----------



## Josquin13

No, I've not heard Le Poeme Harmonique sing French chansons, but I have other recordings by them & am a fan. Is there a CD that you'd recommend?

Yes, Ensemble Gilles Binchois is very good, too. Their recordings of Jehan de Lescurel and Gilles Binchois chansons, ballades, virelais et rondeaux are essential listening. Certainly Binchois influenced Ockeghem, but probably Lescurel did too. Both CDs have been attractively combined in a discount 'two for one' reissue (which I'd highly recommend):

https://www.amazon.com/Chansons-Ensemble-Binchois-BINCHOIS-LESCUREL/dp/B000CEBOPE













It sounds to me like you might enjoy Graindelavoix's Ockeghem. They're about as "loose" and Middle Eastern sounding as I've heard in this repertory:










EDIT: I see that Romanesque's CD of Ockeghem chansons is on You Tube, in its entirety: 




(By the way, the other great composer that had a strong influence on the early Burgundian court composers is the English/Irish composer John Dunstable, or Dunstaple: 



.)

I like the Hilliard Ensemble's approach to Ockeghem's music, as well. They recorded his Requiem, Missa Mi-mi, and Missa Prolationum & Marian motets, but unfortunately no chansons. I find more human feeling in the Hilliard's singing of this repertory than with some of the more recent groups.














And of course, Edward Wickham and The Clerk's Group's award winning survey of the complete Ockeghem Masses & selected motets is essential listening, too: 



 .


----------



## Mandryka

Don’t forget the three Ockeghem songs on Sollazzo Ensemble’s Leuven Chansonier recording. It’s a fabulous disc! No less successful IMO are the half dozen or so songs from Orlando Consort, with the Missa De Plus en Plus.


----------



## Josquin13

I don't recall having heard the the Sollazzo Ensemble before, and am sampling their Leuven Chansonnier recording right now. Wow, they do sound very good. Onto the to buy list it goes. Thanks for the introduction.

Vol. 1: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07XJ5GPKJ/ref=dm_rogue_digital

Is there a Vol. 2 yet?

(That reminds me, Anthony Rooley and the Consort of Musicke did a similar survey of this repertory when they recorded Le Chansonnier Cordiforme for L'Oiseau Lyre, which has been reissued by both the Australian Eloquence label & the Tower Records Vintage Collection. I recall liking Rooley's pioneering performances a lot:



. While, more recently, Ensemble Leones has also recorded from the collection, for Naxos:



. There are not a lot of Ockeghem songs in Le Chansonnier Cordiforme, but there are some, if I remember right.)


----------



## Mandryka

No vol 2 yet; there are other commercial recordings which are all excellent. I saw them in concert when they were just starting out, it was one of the most memorable concerts I’ve ever been to.


----------



## cheregi

Josquin13 said:


> No, I've not heard Le Poeme Harmonique sing French chansons, but I have other recordings by them & am a fan. Is there a CD that you'd recommend?


Here's a really extreme example - but note that this song is intended to be comedic, and most of the rest of the album (indeed even the tracks before and after) is sung much more 'beautifully':






As far as I know, the French late-Renaissance 'airs de cour' genre comes from the same impulse as Italy's madrigalisms, paying closer and closer attention to the specific emotional nuances of each word in a musical text as a way of supposedly approximating ancient Greek music where prosody and music were inextricable. But the French way to do that was these melodically and harmonically simpler songs that mimic the rhythms and changing timbres of speech in an almost theatrical way. I'm not saying Ockeghem's chansons were conceptualized the same way - just that if such variety of 'ugly'-seeming singing was permissible (at least according to this ensemble) in France's royal court over a hundred years later, there's no telling what would have been done in earlier times.

I do need to give Graindelavoix more of a chance with Ockeghem - I keep meaning to get around to both of the recordings you linked.

I was surprised by how compelling I found the Hilliards' Dunstable motet, I haven't listened to much from either composer or ensemble. Their clarity and lack of adornment really brings out the sweetness of the thirds-based harmonizing - I can see why this style was such a big deal on the continent...


----------



## Mandryka

Hilliard are one of the few ensembles to have explored Pythagorean tuning and I think it makes quite a difference. Orlando consort is the only other one I can think of who have followed their example, albeit less systematically.

Dunstable is always very accessible I think, much more so than Frye. The Binchois Consort have done some very interesting work with Dunstable.


----------



## cheregi

Mandryka said:


> Hilliard are one of the few ensembles to have explored Pythagorean tuning and I think it makes quite a difference. Orlando consort is the only other one I can think of who have followed their example, albeit less systematically.


On this note, and at risk of going off-topic, the more I learn about different tunings that more surprised I am by how little attention is given to tuning in the liner notes or other information around most releases. I absolutely want to know if a medieval or renaissance CD uses Pythagorean, meantone, equal temperament, etc., and it's quite frustrating that that information usually isn't clear, especially because thus far my ear is only good enough to confidently distinguish between differently-tuned performances of the same piece but not quite good enough to just listen to any recording and know exactly what's going on. Do you know if in the absence of marketing to the contrary it can be safely assumed that most of these recordings are in equal temperament?


----------



## Mandryka

Someone told me that it's very natural for singers to make microtonal adjustments to pitches, they do it by default when singing in ensemble. What I can say is that as far as I know Rogers Covey Crump was keen to explore experimentation in this area and I think it's obvious that it had an impact on Hilliard and Orlando (in their Josquin motets recording, for example), I'm not sure about Gothic Voices.

I'm hoping that in this Josquin anniversary year we'll see some interesting new ideas, about temperament and other things. I suspect I will be disappointed though, on the basis of my experience in concerts over the past couple of years. All the most exciting new ensembles don't sing Josquin!


----------



## Josquin13

Cheregi,

Thanks for the link to the Le Poeme Harmonique "Airs de cour". I listened to the whole album, and it's beautiful. But of course the music is much later than the period of music we're talking about, being from the 16th & 17th centuries. I gather Le Poeme Harmonique doesn't sing much (if any) earlier music.

If you like the way they sing Italian madrigals, their album "Nova Metamorfosi" is my favorite album from Dumestre. I love all the dissonance:






Mandryka writes, "All the most exciting new ensembles don't sing Josquin!"

I've noticed that, too. Or, if they sing Josquin in concert, they don't record it, or at least haven't yet. I suspect they find his music overly daunting, considering there have been so few great recordings over the years that did it full justice. We put up with them (or at least I do), and get excited about each new release, largely because there's been such scant pickings for so long.

Perhaps there should be a new thread devoted exclusively to the new Josquin recordings for this year's quincentenary? I'd start it, but I don't think they allow me to start a new thread on TC, as I've tried once before & it didn't work. But I could try again, would you be interested?

There's already been four or five new releases to date, albeit some in the pre-order stage--from the likes of Dominque Visse & Ensemble Clément Janequin of Josquin chansons (which I've recently ordered: https://www.amazon.com/Septiesme-Chansons-Ensemble-Clement-Janequin/dp/B08NF1PFX4), the Brabant Ensemble, Stile Antico, lutenist Jacob Heringman (who has already done one terrific CD of 16th century Josquin lute transcriptions, & now here's a second, which I've not heard yet), and Cantica Symphonia. The one release that I won't be buying is the Stile Antico's Josquin recording, which I sampled from and it bored me.

I agree with you that the best ensembles today could shake things up--such as Cinquecento, for instance, if they'd only record Josquin (to date Cinquecento has just given us a single motet on their superb recording of Richafort's Requiem, which was fantastic). Of course, the Orlando Consort's motet CD is one very notable exception, as are De Labyrintho's recordings, Capella Pratensis, and several others.

Anyway, would you be interested in starting a new Josquin thread to discuss this year's anniversary issues?

I see Capella Praetensis has already done a "Josquin 500" live concert (perhaps the thread title should be "Josquin 500"): 




EDIT: Here too is Dominque Visse discussing Ensemble Clément Janequin's new recording of Josquin Chansons for the 500th anniversary (with snippets from the recording sessions):


----------



## Mandryka

Stile Antico’s new Josquin is now available, with M. Pange Lingue. Beautiful of course, it’s too early for me to say whether there are any new challenging ideas in there, it sounds like yet another well executed mainstream performance, on the basis of one superficial listen. 

I know some people who rate Stile Antico as the best of the choirs around today from the point of view of sonority and vocality, this may be true, but from the point of view of interpretation I doubt it’s true.


----------



## Josquin13

Regarding Stile Antico, from what little I've heard of their recordings, they're at their best with the English composers, yet the Tallis Scholars, Hilliards, Henry's 8, Cardinal's Musick, I Fagiolini, Taverner Choir, Sixteen, and Magnificat all do it better, and are more interesting, IMO. Judging purely by the listening samples--which I realize isn't entirely fair, I don't think Stile Antico understands Josquin's music well. It all sounds so bland and cozy and homogenous (but as you say "well executed"). I don't think that Josquin's music should sound like it was composed for the English choral tradition. This isn't music from the Eton choirbook. I don't think they understand that.


----------



## cheregi

Josquin13 said:


> I don't think Stile Antico understands Josquin's music well.


Even just going off the audio samples, as I also am, it's hard for me not to be a little offput by Stile Antico's musica ficta in the Salve Regina a 5 (one of few pieces in this repertoire I know well enough to say this for...). I can't  say anything about historical authenticity - but I can say that in contrast to every other recording I've heard of this piece that's been made since the 90s, Stile Antico sound like they're trying to shunt the beginning of the piece into a sunny major-key sound, which pretty much robs it of its animating (to my ears) tension. On the other hand it's probably good that recordings like this exist, not just for comparison but because so little is known about 'accurate' (which of course was never universal) application of musica ficta...


----------



## SanAntone

cheregi said:


> Even just going off the audio samples, as I also am, it's hard for me not to be a little offput by Stile Antico's musica ficta in the Salve Regina a 5 (one of few pieces in this repertoire I know well enough to say this for...). I can't say anything about historical authenticity - but I can say that in contrast to every other recording I've heard of this piece that's been made since the 90s, Stile Antico sound like that they're trying to shunt the beginning of the piece into a sunny major-key sound, which pretty much robs it of its animating (to my ears) tension. On the other hand it's probably good that recordings like this exist, not just for comparison but because so little is known about 'accurate' (which of course was never universal) application of musica ficta...


I think you are correct in focusing on _musica ficta_, since that is one iportant aspect of early music we know little about regarding performance practice, but was crucial during the Medieval and Renaissance periods. The tendency on the part of some groups to push the music into a more major/minor tonality by how they handle _musica ficta_ (accidentals) in the manuscripts, is regretible.


----------



## thejewk

Finally grabbed a download of the Clerks' Group Ockeghem Collection after spending some extensive time with the Hilliard Ensemble recordings I already have. Ockeghem is quickly shooting up the list of my favourite composers. The constantly shifting harmonies, and beautiful and subtle rhythmical cells that demand your attention. 

Does anything equal the Gloria from the Missa Mi-Mi?


----------



## EdwardBast

SanAntone said:


> I think you are correct in focusing on _musica ficta_, since that is one iportant aspect of early music we know little about regarding performance practice, but was crucial during the Medieval and Renaissance periods. _The tendency on the part of some groups to push the music into a more major/minor tonality by how they handle musica ficta (accidentals) in the manuscripts, is regretible._


So you think this is inauthentic? Or do you just like it the other way? I mean, ficta at cadences (except for the double leading tone kind) has that effect to modern ears. And that's the function for which it's use is best documented, right?


----------



## SanAntone

EdwardBast said:


> So you think this is inauthentic? Or do you just like it the other way? I mean, ficta at cadences (except for the double leading tone kind) has that effect to modern ears. And that's the function for which it's use is best documented, right?


I tend to think that a conservative approach to musica ficta is the safer path towards achieving how the music was sung during the Medieval period. Since they were unaware of the harmonic developments of diatonic tonality, they did not have any expectations in that regard. However, some modern vocal groups assume that our ears have been so accustomed to hearing certain kinds of harmonies and voice movement that in order to make the music less foreign sounding they put in more accidentals.

I happen to like the sound of the pre-tonal music.


----------



## Opisthokont

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Canon for 36 voices (Deo Gratias). There is a great recording by the Hueglas Ensemble - excerpts are available on youtube but I would highly recommend listening to the full 6 minute performance. It's an absolutely beautiful work and I've used it to introduce lots of people to Ockeghem. (If anybody here has trouble finding it, send me a message)


----------

