# What is so great about Well Tempered Clavier?



## ZJovicic (Feb 26, 2017)

I like Bach and I like keyboard works, but I've somehow remained unimpressed with Well Tempered Claiver.
To me it seems more like a technical demonstration of what is possible to do with all major and minor keys, rather than a true work of art.

When it comes to keyboard works, I much prefer Bach's "The Art of Fugue" which I find sublime and also "Goldberg Variations" which I really enjoy and find relaxing and pleasurable. 

Well tempered clavier on the other hand, feels as if it's lacking any memorable elements or a uniting quality.

Probably it's just me, either I don't get it, or I am listening to it in a wrong way, or I didn't listen to it enough times.  So, i'd like to hear other opinions.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Perhaps this helps a bit:

https://www.talkclassical.com/15939-best-well-tempered-clavier.html?highlight=Well+Tempered+Clavier


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Bach is by far my favorite composer and his solo keyboard works are fantastic. I'm surprised that you love the Art of Fugue and the Goldberg Variations but find the WTC problematic. Even if you don't hear its continuity, there are 96 miniature gems to marvel at.


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## ZJovicic (Feb 26, 2017)

Perhaps you have some favorite gems among those 96? Are there some that stand out?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Here they are:

WTC I:
Fugue no. 4 in C sharp minor
Prelude no. 6 in D minor
Prelude no. 7 in E flat major
Fugue no. 8 in D sharp minor
Prelude and Fugue no. 9 in E major
Prelude and Fugue no. 12 in F minor
Fugue no. 13 in F sharp major
Fugue no. 14 in F sharp minor
Fugue no. 16 in G minor
Prelude no. 17 in A flat major
Prelude no. 18 in G sharp minor
Fugue no. 19 in A major
Prelude and Fugue no. 22 in B flat minor
Prelude and Fugue no. 23 in B major
Prelude and Fugue no. 24 in B major

WTC II:
Prelude and Fugue no. 3 in C sharp major
Prelude and Fugue no. 4 in C sharp minor
Fugue no. 5 in D major
Fugue no. 7 in E flat major
Fugue no. 8 in D sharp minor
Prelude and Fugue no. 9 in E major
Prelude no. 10 in E minor
Fugue no. 13 in F sharp major
Fugue no. 14 in F sharp minor
Prelude no. 15 in G major
Fugue no. 17 in A flat major
Fugue no. 18 in G sharp minor
Fugue no. 19 in A major
Prelude no. 20 in A minor
Fugue no. 23 in B major


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

ZJovicic said:


> I like Bach and I like keyboard works, but I've somehow remained unimpressed with Well Tempered Claiver.
> To me it seems more like a technical demonstration of what is possible to do with all major and minor keys, rather than a true work of art.
> 
> When it comes to keyboard works, I much prefer Bach's "The Art of Fugue" which I find sublime and also "Goldberg Variations" which I really enjoy and find relaxing and pleasurable.
> ...


The WTC sounds mechanical to my ears. I hear repeated rhythmic and melodic patterns without much variation. 
Just my opinion.


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## ZJovicic (Feb 26, 2017)

@Bulldog: thanks, I'll check those
@janxharris: yep, mechanical is kind of close to what I feel too, maybe my opinion will change after I listen to Bulldog's recommendations though


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

ZJovicic said:


> @Bulldog: thanks, I'll check those
> @janxharris: yep, mechanical is kind of close to what I feel too, maybe my opinion will change after I listen to Bulldog's recommendations though


I find this very stimulating though:


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## ZJovicic (Feb 26, 2017)

@janxharris: it's a bit offtopic, but I really like the piece you linked, a very good find


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

What is so great about it? Every single prelude and fugue. From the very first prelude in Book I in C major. That first one is deceptive in that it seems so simple and unassuming yet harmonically it contains the seed of endless tonal possibilities, a mini universe unto itself. 

When I think of the Well Tempered Clavier I think of sheer brilliance and compositional mastery. Simple yet complex, relaxed yet intense. 

You say it lacks a uniting quality - in this at least you are correct as J.S. Bach did not actually compile this as one specific work. These pieces were gathered up and compiled this way after his death.


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## ZJovicic (Feb 26, 2017)

@tdc: So perhaps the "right" way to appreciate it would be to treat it as a collection of separate individual works, and to dedicate one's attention to one piece at a time?


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## Myriadi (Mar 6, 2016)

tdc said:


> You say it lacks a uniting quality - in this at least you are correct as J.S. Bach did not actually compile this as one specific work. These pieces were gathered up and compiled this way after his death.


Sorry, but that's not true at all. Bach compiled both volumes himself, and while it took him quite a while (AFAIR the last corrections were entered into WTC I in the 1740s), he did finish the job himself. The pieces were, however, of disparate origins: some Bach composed specifically for WTC, some he adapted by transposing and editing, still others were initially composed for teaching purposes, and so on. There's a wonderful book by David Ledbetter which describes all this, as well as the music.


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## Myriadi (Mar 6, 2016)

ZJovicic said:


> @tdc: So perhaps the "right" way to appreciate it would be to treat it as a collection of separate individual works, and to dedicate one's attention to one piece at a time?


Given that the WTC was not composed as a "single" unit, you're probably correct. If you enjoy The Art of Fugue, you may enjoy e.g. this fugue:


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I don't know what makes WTC great but I certainly do love it as much as anything that Bach wrote. But I don't automatically find myself responding well to all accounts of it. For example, although I am a huge Richter fan, I am only lukewarm about his WTC. But I do enjoy Tureck's and Craig Sheppard's recordings and also found the recording of the 1st Book by Aimard very rewarding. Aimard's account received mixed reviews and may not have sold that well. However that may be the issue of his Book 2 is well overdue. I would have to do some listening to remind myself which harpsichord accounts I enjoy most.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

janxharris said:


> The WTC sounds mechanical to my ears. I hear repeated rhythmic and melodic patterns without much variation.
> Just my opinion.


Your impression sounds like an echo of Glenn Gould's way with Bach. Do you listen to him?


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

What's so great is it was a powerful demonstration of Bach's insistence on what was then a new method of tuning which would allow music to be written in any key, to modulate to any key and to do so without the painful, sour sounding chords of previously used tuning methods. It was perhaps the most important turning point in the development of Western music and opened up unlimited expressive and emotional potential. And, for a budding pianist they are fantastic training tools.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

What’s so great about WTC? Richter’s playing... 

Bach was harmonically (been using that word a lot lately) very flexible and extensive. He laid the foundation for music following him up to present, including pop music. For me, he is more historically important than fun to listen to at this point, but there is no denying his impact.


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

ZJovicic said:


> @tdc: So perhaps the "right" way to appreciate it would be to treat it as a collection of separate individual works, and to dedicate one's attention to one piece at a time?


YES!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

mbhaub said:


> What's so great is it was a powerful demonstration of Bach's insistence on what was then a new method of tuning which would allow music to be written in any key, to modulate to any key and to do so without the painful, sour sounding chords of previously used tuning methods. It was perhaps the most important turning point in the development of Western music and opened up unlimited expressive and emotional potential. And, for a budding pianist they are fantastic training tools.


So you think it's important to hear them on an instrument which is well tempered? Strangely there aren't many piano versions which bother to do that, only one that I know of.


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## Gaspard de la Nuit (Oct 20, 2014)

there are only 3 Preludes and fugues from book 1 that I really listen to regularly (D major, F# major, Bb major), though I guess C major and C minor are both great but they're kind of cliché by virtue of being so iconic, to the extent that I probably wouldn't enjoy listening to them that much.

Book 2 I like a lot more. the preludes are often a lot more significant and I think Bach's voice is very distinctive in book 2....

With all of that said, I virtually ignored Bach and considered his music soulless and uninteresting until I heard it played by Wanda Landowska.

Especially WTC, people seem to play it in so many ways, ranging from overprecious to way too fast. Landowska plays it unforgettably, perfectly, the pinnacle of art.

WTC appeals to me for the same reason that any work of Bach that appeals to me (certainly not all of them) appeals to me..........beauty, novelty, stimulation, artifice, emotion.


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

Disagree a bit about The Art of Fugue. Brilliant composition, but a technical (and somewhat mechanical) exercise nevertheless to me.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I always try to listen to the entire WTC in one sitting; I don't hear anything mechanical going on even from Gould's recordings.

Hey, I'm a total Bach enthusiast. I can only say to those who have doubts about Bach's artistry - you have a Bach problem and that's a shame.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

As great a master as Bach was, WTC _sometimes_ sounds more instructive and academic to me than inspired and it's not my favorite of his keyboards works. There are sections where he seems determined to grind it out through all the keys and I tend to lose interest. Still, I consider this work a great achievement and I will return to it every now and then to see what I have missed. I like Book I better than Book 2, but there's still wonderful writing in Book 2 as well. I consider WTC and the Art of the Fugue as primarily great instructional works though there's a great deal of debate about what Bach intended with the AOTF-whether it was meant for instruction or performance or both. In any case as a composer, he was a giant. WTC was a virtuoso performance and he showed what's possible when going through all the keys using the even tempered scale. It's the only scale that could have been used where one would not have to do a separate tuning for each major or minor key-and I believe that was the point of this exercise. I have never made it straight through Book I or 2 and I question the necessity of having to hear them this way when some sound more like dry exercises without memorable melodic content. But I don't regret the fact that Bach was also a great teacher, who showed by doing, as well as a musician who left behind such a rich legacy of study.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Bulldog said:


> I don't hear anything mechanical going on even from Gould's recordings.


Me neither. Btw, I've always liked this clip in which he talks about the great E major fugue from book 2:


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

Bulldog said:


> I always try to listen to the entire WTC in one sitting; I don't hear anything mechanical going on even from Gould's recordings.
> 
> Hey, I'm a total Bach enthusiast. I can only say to those who have doubts about Bach's artistry - you have a Bach problem and that's a shame.


So if someone disagrees with your preferences and interpretations, that's a problem and a shame? I'd say that kind of narrow mindedness is a shame.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Every time somebody brings up the WTC, I have to listen to it. What a treat it is! This time it’s Schiff’s ECM performance, his latest one. Well, that’s a treat too.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Richard8655 said:


> So if someone disagrees with your preferences and interpretations, that's a problem and a shame?


If a person simply isn't thrilled with Bach's music, that's fine. But this griping about mechanical composition is a shame. Open the ears to hear this glorious music.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Myriadi said:


> Sorry, but that's not true at all. Bach compiled both volumes himself, and while it took him quite a while (AFAIR the last corrections were entered into WTC I in the 1740s), he did finish the job himself. The pieces were, however, of disparate origins: some Bach composed specifically for WTC, some he adapted by transposing and editing, still others were initially composed for teaching purposes, and so on. There's a wonderful book by David Ledbetter which describes all this, as well as the music.


I've read somewhere the pieces were compiled in the form we have them after his death, but you could be right. Thanks for the reading recommendation.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

The "mechanical" criticism of Bach I think springs from a lack of understanding of the music. An analogy would be to state Spock has no emotion because he remains so calm and logical on the surface. But Trekkies know underneath the surface the emotions of a Vulcan are far more intense than those of an ordinary human. 

J.S. Bach's music has so much depth and profundity it is beyond description and the forms he used were the best vehicles for that expression and his harmonic ideas. 

Maybe some of the Romantics in contrast are more like Rambo with so much rage and emotion on the surface, in contrast Bach is like a ninja. He is more methodical and calculating, and it is because he was wiser and more disciplined and knew how to harness his power in the most concise and effective ways, wasting nothing.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Bach's music in the WTC is obviously indicative of deep, heart-felt emotion; one could also argue that it is frequently imbued with religious significance. Just listen to something like the 4th fugue in book 1. It can be rather irritating, imo.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Mandryka said:


> So you think it's important to hear them on an instrument which is well tempered? Strangely there aren't many piano versions which bother to do that, only one that I know of.


I believe that most musicologists interpret Bach's wording "Well Tempered" to mean equal temperment as we know it: all semitones the same distance apart. which is how a piano is supposedly tuned. As opposed to Mean Tone Temperment used in his time, too. There have indeed been many different tuning systems used in performing these works, but only in equal temperment can all 24 be played to sound acceptable. In any of the tweaked systems at some point those pesky flats and sharps become more and more out of tune. Too bad the technology was unavailable in Bach's time to be able to tell exactly what he had in mind. Not to mention our modern A at 440 wasn't Bach's.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

tdc said:


> The "mechanical" criticism of Bach I think springs from a lack of understanding of the music. An analogy would be to state Spock has no emotion because he remains so calm and logical on the surface. But Trekkies know underneath the surface the emotions of a Vulcan are far more intense than those of an ordinary human.
> 
> J.S. Bach's music has so much depth and profundity it is beyond description and the forms he used were the best vehicles for that expression and his harmonic ideas.
> 
> Maybe some of the Romantics in contrast are more like Rambo with so much rage and emotion on the surface, in contrast Bach is like a ninja. He is more methodical and calculating, and it is because he was wiser and more disciplined and knew how to harness his power in the most concise and effective ways, wasting nothing.


Great post! I used to write off the entire Baroque Era as being unemotional, but it is more calculated and methodical emotion. I think Gould does a great job of brining out the emotion in Bach's keyboard works, especially!


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

mbhaub said:


> I believe that* most musicologists interpret Bach's wording "Well Tempered" to mean equal temperment as we know it*: all semitones the same distance apart. which is how a piano is supposedly tuned.


Some 50 years ago this was true, but today most Bach researchers think that Bach's tuning was unequal. Not pure meantone, but some modification thereof. Quite a lot of music theoreticians in the 16th and 17th century worked with exploring different modifications, which made playing in more complicated modes possible. By then equal tuning was known, but hardly in use. The reason for this was probably, that it was considered too much out of tune - particularly annoying are the large thirds. Grown up with equal tuning - as we are - it may need a fresh ear to hear it.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Blancrocher said:


> Bach's music in the WTC is obviously indicative of deep, heart-felt emotion; one could also argue that it is frequently imbued with religious significance. Just listen to something like the* 4th fugue in book 1.* It can be rather irritating, imo.


Do you think of the "cross subject"? Why is that irritating?


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

What was the point of writing the WTC for all major and minor keys if the instrument had to be tuned each time for each key? It defeats the purpose of playing them straight through if one wishes to do so. The only way I would rule out equal temperament is if Bach had no awareness that such a tuning had ever been used, and I consider that highly doubtful. Think of the tedious time that using the equal temperament saved in study or performance without having to repeatedly drag out the tuning hammer. Why would Bach have likely known about equal tuning? The well- or equal-temperament scale was used as far back as 1681 before Bach was even born: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well_temperament


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I believe the idea in the good old days was that pieces in different keys would have very different "flavors" since the intervals from one note to the next would be different in the scales of each key.(1) These related to the modes, with each mode having a scale equivalent to a white key scale starting on a particular note.

Bach's idea (he wasn't the first) was to make the tuning far more regular with the intervals between semitones "equal enough" to allow movement from key signature to key signature without unduly affecting the flavor of the music. In our modern "equal temperament," each key has a frequency equal to the frequency of the adjacent lower semitone times the twelfth root of two. This means that after a full cycle of twelve notes, the frequency will be exactly doubled. Bach is thought to have had a system that more or less approximated this, though imperfectly.

(1) Not only would the semi-tone and full-tone steps from note to note be arranged differently, but the frequency ratios between adjacent semitones might also vary by a non-trivial amount.


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## Gaspard de la Nuit (Oct 20, 2014)

well-temperament vs. equal temperament......Well-temperament preserved some of the differing characters of each key in the meantone system while making the more remote ones playable. It's a compromise between wanting the already-usable keys to keep their distinct sound while being able to play in the theretofore unusable keys. Equal temperament divides the octave into 12 equal parts, it's completely lacking in what the meantone system has. It's an invention of the late 19th-20th centuries.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Another system in use is "just temperament", aka just intonation. Not too sure how this works but it is said to deliver a richer sound with note intervals close to what the ear wants to hear, at least in certain keys. John Adams uses just temperament in his electric violin concerto, _The Dharma at Big Sur_.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_intonation


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

mbhaub said:


> I believe that most musicologists interpret Bach's wording "Well Tempered" to mean equal temperment


No

..............


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Christian Wolff on WTC, from an essay on Wolfgang Rubsam's website

https://www.wolfgangrubsam.com/j-s-bach-wtc



> Prof. Christoph Wolff
> Harvard University
> 
> The Well-Tempered Clavier
> ...


Interestingly, Wolff asserts that although Kimberger said that Bach demanded that all thirds should be sharpened, we can't deduce that he wanted the keyboard tuned equally. I don't know enough about tuning to follow this argument.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

Put simply:


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## Gaspard de la Nuit (Oct 20, 2014)

Mandryka said:


> No
> 
> ..............


he might be right, a lot of people (including myself until fairly recently) without enough exposure to these things probably just assume Bach's well-temperament = equal temperament.


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

ZJovicic said:


> I like Bach and I like keyboard works, but I've somehow remained unimpressed with Well Tempered Claiver.
> To me it seems more like a technical demonstration of what is possible to do with all major and minor keys, rather than a true work of art.
> 
> When it comes to keyboard works, I much prefer Bach's "The Art of Fugue" which I find sublime and also "Goldberg Variations" which I really enjoy and find relaxing and pleasurable.
> ...


Don't worry about it. WTC is not one of my favorite Bach keyboard works either. It's OK, I don't mind it. But don't listen to it often. Maybe one day that will change. To each their own.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Wolff doesn't understand half the things he's writing about:



> 'The obituary of 1750/1754, for example, notes: "He knew how to temper the tuning of the harpsichord so purely and correctly that all keys sounded beautiful and pleasing. He knew of no keys which one would have had to avoid because of impure tuning." [unquote]
> 
> That's the description of the even-tempered scale-also known as the well-tempered scale-which Bach obviously knew about by virtue of the description that Wolff just quoted but does not fully understand its implications. *The only possible way the above could be true through ALL the keys is by using the even-temperament scale. * Without using it, any modulation into other keys would sound out of tune. Period. To have equal tuning in tune modulations into other keys absolutely requires the use of the equal temperament involving each string and each key of the entire range of the keyboard. There are a number of contradictions in Wolff's essay where he tries to turn Bach's tuning into a mystery when there was no mystery of the equal effects of Bach's tuning. Wolff was obviously not a skilled musician but a musicologist-and an exceeding poor one at that. Wolff also gives the impression that the equal temperament scale was unknown before Bach came along, and that's patently false. The equal temperament scale was known and used before Bach was ever born. What Bach did that was revolutionary was to fully exploit it by systematically going through all the major and minor keys-something that had never been done before. I really suggest that people read Wolff's essay in more detail, and realize how its logic is highly inconsistent within itself.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Well-tempered vs. Even-tempered for what it's worth

http://www.math.uwaterloo.ca/~mrubinst/tuning/tuning.html


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

ZJovicic said:


> I like Bach and I like keyboard works, but I've somehow remained unimpressed with Well Tempered Claiver.
> To me it seems more like a technical demonstration of what is possible to do with all major and minor keys, rather than a true work of art.
> 
> When it comes to keyboard works, I much prefer Bach's "The Art of Fugue" which I find sublime and also "Goldberg Variations" which I really enjoy and find relaxing and pleasurable.
> ...


Funny how we are all different.

For me the Bach WTC is the most profoundly moving musical creation ever composed. It manages to be a supreme intellectual set of exercises, while also being an incredibly moving experience at the same time.

It is the greatest demonstration of both melody and counterpoint I've ever experienced.

In the scheme of things, for me the Bach WTC is absolutely numero uno!!

Nothing else even comes close!


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

hpowders said:


> *Funny how we are all different.*
> 
> For me the Bach WTC is the most profoundly moving musical creation ever composed. It manages to be a supreme intellectual set of exercises, while also being an incredibly moving experience at the same time.
> 
> ...


Indeed! I like the WTC, but I would trade it for Schubert's Piano Sonata No.21, Schubert's Impromptus, and Liszt's Piano Sonata in B minor. Two composers you don't care about. Indeed, funny how we are all different.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

what is so great about it?

simple: back then keyboard instruments were not tuned in equal temperament. You tuned your clavier for the key you were playing in and then you didn't wander into distantly related keys because they were out of tune.

so the point of the WTC is that it is to be played as a set. You tune your clavier once and then play a set of pieces in all twelve keys. THAT is what is significant about it

if you don't play, then how significant that really is might be lost on you, but it is your deficiency, not the music's


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

ZJovicic said:


> I like Bach and I like keyboard works, but I've somehow remained unimpressed with Well Tempered Claiver.
> To me it seems more like a technical demonstration of what is possible to do with all major and minor keys, rather than a true work of art.
> 
> When it comes to keyboard works, I much prefer Bach's "The Art of Fugue" which I find sublime and also "Goldberg Variations" which I really enjoy and find relaxing and pleasurable.
> ...


It's not just you!

I'm not a Bach connaisseur nor a real admirer but I very much prefer the partitas, toccata's and Goldberg Variations over the Well tempered clavier. For me there's not much soul in that work.


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## jenspen (Apr 25, 2015)

I don't think not enjoying the WTC is anything to be concerned about. I shared your disappointment (and I'm not musician enough to appreciate its technical importance). Then....I kept at it and the WTC crept its way into my affections. Now I get a buzz from listening to it - particularly to the minor keys in Book II.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Larkenfield said:


> Wolff doesn't understand half the things he's writing about:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## hiroica (Aug 31, 2015)

My two cents.
My discovery about a year ago of both books of the WTC was an amazing moment for me that I feel has considerably improved my daily quality of life. I listen to parts of it every single day. To me, it has the effect of cleansing my mind and spirit and its daily listening is as important as taking a shower or brushing my teeth! It sounds ridiculous and that may be a slight overstatement, but I really do feel this way about it.
My preferred recording is by Richter. I love it! 
To me each of these pieces is like a brilliant supernatural multifaceted gem. I prefer to just listen to a few at a time, and usually I’ll just listen to a specific prelude or a specific fugue. 
In my view, these pieces are so beautiful and potent, that I wouldn’t want to listen to 10 preludes and fugues consecutively let alone (24 or 48), in the same way that I wouldn’t drink an entire bottle of scotch or whatever alcohol you like in one sitting. The pieces are so concentrated and rich, that I just listen in small doses. I may take a specific prelude or fugue that I like however and listen to it many times on repeat just to see what new things will be revealed to me on multiple listens.
I’m so grateful for this music that Bach made and the purpose of my post is just to share my personal thoughts and feelings in case it could possible help even one person to experience the magic of these pieces!!


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## Pythagorus (Mar 23, 2018)

The posters who complain about the Well Tempered compositions are probably not aware that Equal Temperament has ruined it for them . I am surprised the computer people have not solved the mysteries of Well Temperament . Surely a computer can run through every permutation possible to place the notes where they should sound better than ET does . Just tell it to come up with as many whole number fractions as it can manage . In the meantime (not meantone ) we cannot resist arguing about the precise temperament used by Bach so all of them are ditched and we rely on a dog eared copy of Log Tables . No wonder ET sounds so dreadful .


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Once again I feel tempted to recommend this book dealing with this subject:

https://www.amazon.com/Equal-Temperament-Ruined-Harmony-Should/dp/0393334201


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## Marc (Jun 15, 2007)

jenspen said:


> I don't think not enjoying the WTC is anything to be concerned about. I shared your disappointment (and I'm not musician enough to appreciate its technical importance). Then....I kept at it and the WTC crept its way into my affections. Now I get a buzz from listening to it - particularly to the minor keys in Book II.


This can happen with many great works. In my experience, investing some time in listening can provide pleasant results.
But if it doesn't happen in the WTC's case: do not worry... just enjoy the Goldbergs and everything else.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Pythagorus said:


> The posters who complain about the Well Tempered compositions are probably not aware that Equal Temperament has ruined it for them . I am surprised the computer people have not solved the mysteries of Well Temperament . Surely a computer can run through every permutation possible to place the notes where they should sound better than ET does . Just tell it to come up with as many whole number fractions as it can manage . In the meantime (not meantone ) we cannot resist arguing about the precise temperament used by Bach so all of them are ditched and we rely on a dog eared copy of Log Tables . No wonder ET sounds so dreadful .


Glad you found the time to give us your point of view, welcome to Talk Classical .


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Pythagorus said:


> The posters who complain about the Well Tempered compositions are probably not aware that Equal Temperament has ruined it for them . I am surprised the computer people have not solved the mysteries of Well Temperament . Surely a computer can run through every permutation possible to place the notes where they should sound better than ET does . Just tell it to come up with as many whole number fractions as it can manage . In the meantime (not meantone ) we cannot resist arguing about the precise temperament used by Bach so all of them are ditched and we rely on a dog eared copy of Log Tables . No wonder ET sounds so dreadful .


There is no objective ideal temperament for all keys for all intervals, or even for just 3rds and 5ths. One must be sacrificed for the other. It is not difficult for computers to minimize the average error for those intervals you're most interested in for all keys (say 3rds and 5ths), but it could still not improve things artistically, and still lead to blandness.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

The well-tempered clavier was Bach's way of demonstrating equal temperament between notes in the 8-note scale. He didn't develop it out of inspiration, which is more a 19th century notion. 

It has for 300 years been a learning exercise for keyboardists. I too have wondered why certain collectors and fans created such an attachment to it.

In addition, Bach didn't develop the art of fugue for performance; it was intended as an intellectual exercise for him. He'd never have envisioned times like we live in where these pieces were played by everyone.


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## Marc (Jun 15, 2007)

larold said:


> [The WTC] [...] has for 300 years been a learning exercise for keyboardists. I too have wondered why certain collectors and fans created such an attachment to it.


Because they love the music of these learning exercises?



larold said:


> [...] Bach didn't develop the art of fugue for performance; it was intended as an intellectual exercise for him.


But maybe that's a 19th century notion, too.



larold said:


> He'd never have envisioned times like we live in where these pieces were played by everyone.


That's indeed very well possible. But I personally never met the man. I don't know anything about his (en)visions. Did he envision his Passions, Cantatas, Suites and the rest of his oeuvre to be performed by 'everyone'?

In my layman opinion, if there's people around who can play it, then any music is penned down to be performed. In the composer's own lifetime, and - if it survives either in print, manuscript or copy - after the composer's lifetime. Even if its creator never 'envisioned' this. To me, that's not relevant at all.

Bach wasn't an unworldly room scholar. He was a pretty darn good composer and musician, who, during his lifetime, stood in the midst of life.

Let's play him, let's listen to him, let's enjoy him. 
That's what I always say.


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## ZJovicic (Feb 26, 2017)

OK, so I decided to give WTC another chance, proper one. This time, instead of marathon listening to the whole thing at once, I plan to listen to each individual work separately... making pauses between them, writing down notes. Most of the time, I'll listen to one work more than once, before moving onto the next one.
I'll share my experience in this thread.
So far, I listened to:

BWV 846: Prelude: It strongly reminds me of minimalism; Fugue: typical Bach
BWV 847: Prelude: I find the first part very entertaining, maybe even fun, again a bit minimalistic; then there's a bit longish "outro"; Fugue: again typical Bach, but a bit more lively and interesting than the first one, it's also a bit "softer"
BWV 848: Very fast, both prelude and fugue, prelude reminds me slightly of classical era; fugue seems very complex


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

larold said:


> The well-tempered clavier was Bach's way of demonstrating equal temperament between notes in the 8-note scale. He didn't develop it out of inspiration, which is more a 19th century notion.
> 
> It has for 300 years been a learning exercise for keyboardists. I too have wondered why certain collectors and fans created such an attachment to it.
> 
> In addition, Bach didn't develop the art of fugue for performance; it was intended as an intellectual exercise for him. He'd never have envisioned times like we live in where these pieces were played by everyone.


So essentially what you're saying is you have managed to get into Bach's head and know the reasons why he composed what he did and the entirety of his subjective inner creative process - and whether or not there was any actual inspiration involved in this work. Also you've managed to figure out what Bach did and didn't envision in regards to the future.

...and this is why you are not 'attached' to this work like so many others, because of your knowledge of the thoughts and intimate details of a mind that has been gone for centuries.

I find that your thoughts on the subject don't have any impact on my response to this music. I still find myself attached to it, and enjoying it tremendously. Sorry larold.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

ZJovicic said:


> BWV 848: Very fast, both prelude and fugue, prelude reminds me slightly of classical era; fugue seems very complex


How fast it goes depends on the artist playing it. Jando polishes it off in 3.5 minutes; Gilbert takes over 4 minutes. - not fast at all.


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## ZJovicic (Feb 26, 2017)

Today I continued with my "project", so here are the newest impressions:

BWV 849: Prelude: gentle relaxing music, complex; Fugue: more dynamic, complex too (probably the most complex work so far)
BWV 850: Prelude: fast and dynamic but serious; Fugue: expressive, fast, dynamic, serious (so far my favorite piece overall)
BWV 851: Both prelude and fugue seem a bit softer; they are lively, but also serious/emotional
BWV 852: Prelude: long prelude, starts slowly, builds up dynamics over time; Fugue: short but interesting, good match with the prelude
BWV 853: Prelude: feels very sad throughout, emotional; Fugue: continues in a very similar mood


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## Wilhelm Theophilus (Aug 8, 2020)

hpowders said:


> Funny how we are all different.
> 
> For me the Bach WTC is the most profoundly moving musical creation ever composed. It manages to be a supreme intellectual set of exercises, while also being an incredibly moving experience at the same time.
> 
> ...


There is melody in the WTC???


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Wilhelm Theophilus said:


> There is melody in the WTC???


Yes, and everything else that I could want from my favorite body of music in the world.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I think Gould said in an interview about the Goldberg variations (probably from around the time of his 1981 recording) that although they were seen as his signature piece he was not even so fond of them, that they contained some of Bach's best but also some pieces he felt indifferent towards or didn't like at all (he wasn't more specific, I think).

For me such a comment fits even better for the WTC. (I don't consider it ONE work anyway.) There are lots great pieces, but also lots of perfunctory preludes (many I'd never listen to unless as prelude for what follows, which is not really a fault as that's what they are), a few fugues that are not up with the average (of course not all can be up with the best, the a minor Bk I is probably the one clearly too long and boring) and even some pairs I'd probably never listen to on purpose but am usually too lazy to skip. There are also some "uneven" pairs where one is a bit puzzled that when Bach sometimes coupled pieces so well fitting together (admittedly, most of the time), at other times he seems to just have used some scraps from the workbench or sundry stuff he had lying around, e.g. the very impressive if old fashioned "Prelude" Eb major Bk.I which already contains fugal section with a modest, hardly remarkable fugue.
In spite of this, it is definitely an incredibly rich and rewarding collection.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Wilhelm Theophilus said:


> There is melody in the WTC???


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)




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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

ZJovicic said:


> @Bulldog: thanks, I'll check those
> @janxharris: yep, mechanical is kind of close to what I feel too, maybe my opinion will change after I listen to Bulldog's recommendations though


Such a big list, I assumed Bulldog recommended all of them.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Open Book said:


> Such a big list, I assumed Bulldog recommended all of them.


I had to go back to page 1 to see this big list of mine. Yup, those are my favorite selections from each book.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Wilhelm Theophilus said:


> There is melody in the WTC???


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

There is plenty of melodic material in a fugue. The subject is one "melody", the countersubject, another "melody"...and then there are double fugues and triple fugues. More melodies. Melodic layer after layer, everything a melody, melodies chasing each other like children down a blossom-dappled path...


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## Symphonic (Apr 27, 2015)

ZJovicic said:


> I like Bach and I like keyboard works, but I've somehow remained unimpressed with Well Tempered Claiver.
> To me it seems more like a technical demonstration of what is possible to do with all major and minor keys, rather than a true work of art.


If this were the case, he would have simply transposed the same piece into all 24 keys. After all, a literal transposition would be the most accurate, foolproof way of demonstrating the possibilities of the major and minor key.

Rather, each of the 48 works possess a unique character with different moods and highlights. 
Some are melodic, whilst others are more based on figurations of sequences. Some of the works are sombre, whilst others are joyful. And so on.


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## Wilhelm Theophilus (Aug 8, 2020)

Symphonic said:


> If this were the case, he would have simply transposed the same piece into all 24 keys. After all, a literal transposition would be the most accurate, foolproof way of demonstrating the possibilities of the major and minor key.
> 
> Rather, each of the 48 works possess a unique character with different moods and highlights.
> Some are melodic, whilst others are more based on figurations of sequences. Some of the works are sombre, whilst others are joyful. And so on.


Some of them are very difficult to the ear upon the first few listens. Its the relentlessness of it.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

We know that quite a few of the pieces in the WTC were in fact transposed from more common keys to the uncommon ones. I don't know exactly which ones, though (IIRC at least one of the C# major ones).
And it is also interesting that maybe for practical reasons *with the exception of the WTC* Bach mostly restricted himself to the keys up to 4 accidentals used in the inventions and symphonies. (Of course, even up to Beethoven B major or b flat minor are very rare as main keys)


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Kreisler jr said:


> We know that quite a few of the pieces in the WTC were in fact transposed from more common keys to the uncommon ones.


By whom?

#cp;jwsaolcszlksznj cv


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Wilhelm Theophilus said:


> Some of them are very difficult to the ear upon the first few listens. Its the relentlessness of it.


They needn't be, it's possibly the performance you're reacting to.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Mandryka said:


> By whom?
> 
> #cp;jwsaolcszlksznj cv


By Bach presumably. He transposed other works I'm certain, such as the French Overture originally in (I think) C minor transposed to B minor so that it would form a tritone relationship with the key of the Italian Concerto, the other piece in Clavier-Übung II.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Mandryka said:


> #cp;jwsaolcszlksznj cv


What does this mean?


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Of course by Bach. There is nothing inauthentic or surprising about this. All of his keyboard concerti are transcriptions and were often also transposed in the process. The point was only that Bach did not necessarily take pains to capture the true essence of c sharp major but rather transposed a c or d major piece to fill the gap.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Kreisler jr said:


> Of course by Bach. There is nothing inauthentic or surprising about this. All of his keyboard concerti are transcriptions and were often also transposed in the process. The point was only that Bach did not necessarily take pains to capture the true essence of c sharp major but rather transposed a c or d major piece to fill the gap.


I'm not sure I think there really is an 'essence' of c sharp major. Some pieces just work well in more than one key.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Kreisler jr said:


> Of course by Bach.


That I have never heard -- at least not by JS. I'd appreciate some references.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

According to the German language Wikipedia entry for p&f c sharp major, there is an earlier version of the prelude in c major in the Mempel Preller manuscript as well as an intermediate already in c# in Büchlein for WF. Look it up. I don't know more details but I have frequently seen remarks in books or notes that quite a bit of the wtc is probably based on earlier pieces that were revised and often transposed to get all 24 keys. I don't know how many of the earlier versions can be documented but as general idea it seemed in no way controversial.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Kreisler jr said:


> According to the German language Wikipedia entry for p&f c sharp major, there is an earlier version of the prelude in c major in the Mempel Preller manuscript as well as an intermediate already in c# in Büchlein for WF. Look it up. I don't know more details but I have frequently seen remarks in books or notes that quite a bit of the wtc is probably based on earlier pieces that were revised and often transposed to get all 24 keys. I don't know how many of the earlier versions can be documented but as general idea it seemed in no way controversial.


If they were revised and transposed then it is also possible they were re-worked to make them more idiomatic to the new key. Because Bach uses so much chromaticism I can see how much of his music could be worked out in various keys.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Sure, it''s possible. But we know original/alternative versions of many Bach pieces and some are transpositions only or just minimally adapted whereas others are almost new pieces. I am no scholar but I am certain that there is literature on this so no need for us to speculate.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)




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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_I like Bach and I like keyboard works, but I've somehow remained unimpressed with Well Tempered Claiver. To me it seems more like a technical demonstration of what is possible to do with all major and minor keys, rather than a true work of art._

Of course it is both a training guide for equal temperament and a great work of art. To hear the latter it is easiest to do so with a keyboard player whose reading is somewhat off the rails and not precisely what Bach may have intended. Try Sviatoslav Richter's traversal on RCA and see if you think differently.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Kreisler jr said:


> as general idea it seemed in no way controversial.


Maybe, maybe not. On one view the function of WTC is to explore the expressive effects of music played on a well tempered clavier. At the back of my mind was the idea that the music was designed to bring out this aspect of the key -- because don't forget well tempered keyboard instruments are tuned non-equally, so each key will have dissonances in different intervals.


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## Parley (May 29, 2021)

it is a work of supreme genius which explores the possibilities of all the keys of the WTC. Mind you, I don't think even Bach expected us to listen to it all at one go, like is sometimes the case today!


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_There is melody in the WTC?_

Just in the first few try Nos. 1 and 7 from book one.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Parley said:


> it is a work of supreme genius which explores the possibilities of all the keys of the WTC. *Mind you, I don't think even Bach expected us to listen to it all at one go*, like is sometimes the case today!


Yes. It never occurred to me that anyone would approach the WTC this way. A few pairs at a time is my preference. I listen to the Shostakovich the same way. The Books are collections, not compositions.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

EdwardBast said:


> Yes. It never occurred to me that anyone would approach the WTC this way. A few pairs at a time is my preference. I listen to the Shostakovich the same way. The Books are collections, not compositions.


After listening to a few pairs, I immediately want to listen to more pairs until there are no more left. The way I see it, why end the enjoyment when the marginal returns are so wonderful. I feel the same about the Shostakovich op. 87.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Bulldog said:


> After listening to a few pairs, I immediately want to listen to more pairs until there are no more left. The way I see it, why end the enjoyment when the marginal returns are so wonderful. I feel the same about the Shostakovich op. 87.


Well, sure. Why not? Some people can eat a half gallon of ice cream at a sitting. 

The point is the difference between a collection, where it is normal to program and listen to smaller portions of the whole, and a multimovement work like a sonata, where it isn't.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Well, it's great because it's well-tempered of course. Previously, keyboard pieces were boisterous and imprudent.


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## christo131 (Jun 24, 2021)

Thanks for reminding me of how fabulous this fugue is.


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