# A temporary new direction



## SenorTearduct

Hello everyone, I was talking to my Chorale teacher, who is also the supervisor for my directed study and we were planning what I need to do to prepare for Juilliard and we came to the conclusion that as I indeed have created quite the catalog, I do not have a small structured catalog that shows my skill in the more normal, and less difficult forms of composing; and without this I feared those who would review my audition may think my very experimental (and literature backed) catalog would only show my creativity and intelligence, but no technical knowledge. So if I could get you opinions on the following work(s) for my small piece/ technical catalog that would be awesome.

Thanks
Senor


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## SenorTearduct

And sorry about the mild clicking and white noise...


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## danae

OK, please don't take this the wrong way, but the piece need *a lot* of work. The thematic material isn't even thematic, it's just a motive, which is not developed, as one would expect in a sonata or sonatina. There are no real harmonic excursions as the piece unravels, and last but not least, the harmonic progressions, and especially the harmonization of the motive itself, is seriously problematic.

Try again, and again, and again, until you're satisfied with the outcome.


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## emiellucifuge

What he said


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## SenorTearduct

I think I understand where you are coming from; however The opening is very similar in structure to a Mozart sonata. And I must say this is not a two bar theme, the opening apperigated melodic cord motive, is only the opening to the climatic last two bars. 

I'm not sure what you mean by harmonic excursions, could you elaborate?

I do not see the harmonic problem in the melody. There is no unwanted dissonance as the cords are based on thirds and fifths within each other; the only problem I can imagine is harmonic clutter, which is intended in the second half of the thematic material as to permit a more contrasting re-entranced to the melodic answer to the intro-thematic material. That was intended.

The piece again is by no means my best work, and I have no intention for it to be even close, all it needs is its Sonatina structure, properly executed, as to show versatility in my writing style, all I really want is your opinion on the melodic material, not on weather or not it is a motive, or thematic.


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## danae

1. Harmonic excursions: the harmonic development and the "adventures" the harmony undergoes as it shifts away from the tonic, only to return to it in the recapitulation and coda. 

2. You can't ask for an opinion on the "melodic material" only. I mean, one of the problems of the "melodic material" is that it's not complete, or that somehow it doesn;t sound complete.


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## SenorTearduct

1. you say this as if the neccesary action for the harmonic movement through the work must be in a retrogressive manner until the recap. and I must say there is a key change in the development, this modulation interrupts any retro-progression to or 'fro the tonic. Harmonic execution in your defination could only work on a small scale then within the melody. which in this work it does, in the third measure where you heard "harmonic clutter" this was a first inversion triad moving stepwise upward, from the tonic in a progressive manner all to reach the tonic at the end of the melody restarting and introducing either new material or a repeat/varient of the melody.

2. I respect your opinions and intend to keep them close in mind this weekend where I will write another Sonatina


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## Zeniyama

It was pleasant to listen to, but I enjoyed your other pieces greater. This one is a bit... ehhh.

I've been trying to write something a bit more conventional, myself, and have been messing around with writing something modal. So far, however, the only bit of work I've done is the first several bars of a chorale that still ends up sounding like a discordant, yet atmospheric, schizophrenic mess of free expressionism.


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## SenorTearduct

"sounding like a discordant, yet atmospheric, schizophrenic mess of free expressionism"-- This made my day.

"but I enjoyed your other pieces greater. This one is a bit... ehhh."-- This made my week. My teacher was pushing for this, but its so hard for me because I just want to venture off what I do and make my own thing, to me this pattern, and even the work, is kinda; generic...

Everything else Ive done I thought was much more origional... u agree?

But with this pleasant is all I'm looking for.


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## SenorTearduct

My teacher has made me write as many of these as I can in the past four days.. and ive done 8 Sonatinas now...


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## Zeniyama

This one had a hint of your originality in it, but I feel that your other pieces had a bit more personality to them. But still, it was a good attempt.

Eight sonatinas? That's alot of writing.

I don't have any type of compositional teacher, and so I'll just write on my own and occasionally bring my pieces to my piano teacher and have him critique them. He's usually very amused by my pieces, and encourages me to write more.


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## chillowack

I found this piece interesting in some places, unusual in others. My first impression was that it was quite a bit more atonal than your other works; and I would also have to agree with danae that while there is a motive here, it's not as strongly-developed as it might be.

My biggest peeve is with the "swing notes," for want of a better term: the eighth-note-dotted-eighth-note progressions which, while distinctive, take the piece out of the classical style and into something else.

I would like the key raised to something higher and lighter: it's a bit low and "murky" now. And maybe back off the reverb a little bit, to clear the sound so the individual notes can be heard better.

I'm not an authority on the sonata form yet, so I can't comment on that. 

The parts I liked best were the sixteenth-note ornaments that followed the two measures at the beginning of the motive: this was the main glimmer of melody for me, and I would have liked it to be followed with an equally melodic sequel.

I hope this helps! Please let me know what your teacher thinks of it.


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## SenorTearduct

I agree

and ya 8 in 3 days...

Thats cool, I like your music


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## SenorTearduct

Everything helps my friend.. He is going to look into it more this weekend...
I think ill reconsider the swing, as it adds excitement, your right it takes it out of the classical.
That was my favorite part also...

Ok maybe I was wrong about the motive


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## SenorTearduct

Ok, Take two..

This is the newest sonatina no. 9

For a string Orcherstra


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## danae

Tearduct how old are you?


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## SenorTearduct

A sophmore in highschool

Im 15 but my birthday is in 2 weeks, roughly


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## danae

OK, that explains it. I thought you were older. Sorry for being too harsh. Keep up the good work. And remember: study a lot of scores.


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## SenorTearduct

no, please, I really don't mind it, in fact I prefer it...

Was this one no good either?


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## danae

To use phrases like "no good" and the like, would be politically incorrect (no that I believe in political correctness!) and fairly inconsiderate.


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## SenorTearduct

OK then, so, This work is in your opinion does not please your taste?

Would that be accurate?


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## danae

I think it's a good effort, but it's less interesting than the other one I heard, the Sonatina in D major (?). It's very wise to stick with miniatures for a while before starting something lengthier and more ambitious. 

However, even though I think this piece is far less interesting than the previous one, at least harmonically and melodically, there is a better sense of clarity.


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## SenorTearduct

Oh no, I started with the big stuff, and now its hard for me to go back and relearn the proper form, I started with experemental...

This is by no means my beginning.
That was my goal with this one, Clairity. And do you think it may sound better arco instead of pizz?

If you would rather see what I started with I urge you to check out my other thread. Finite Terra, you can find it somewhere in the first two pages on the "modern composers thread" I would suggest the two fugues (I started learning conterpoint before I did binary and tenary forms, let alone the sonata form...


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## danae

There's a modern composers thread? I haven't seen it. 

When did you composing?


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## SenorTearduct

Here, click on my name, that is on this post, a drop of options will appear. Click on *all posts by SenorTearduct* then on that page go to page 7 and scroll down to the bottom, there should be a comment on the thread, "Finite Terra" on that thread lie a decent selection of my works...

The first classical piece I ever wrote was a Program Symphony for my lit class last may...
Since then Ive done 25 works, not including these three sonatinas
I taught myself everything from the two books Harvard Dictionary of Music, and Theory for Today's Musician.. Just this past week I meet with my Directed study teacher and he suggested this new route and he is helping me learn the more common forms of music, and the correct practice of them.

Most everyone on this website I know enjoyed my older works more, or thats what Ive heard; they are more creative and original.

In number of months this would be my 5th month composing.


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## danae

SenorTearduct said:


> In number of months this would be my 5th month composing.


So you are at the beginning!


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## SenorTearduct

I see what you mean, you are right.

But could you look at the ther works and let me know what you think?


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## danae

Yes, sure I will.


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## danae

And could you listen at a sample of a free improvisation I've posted on a new thread in "Today's composers"? I'm interested to know what you think.


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## Scott Good

Dear Senor, Chillowack, and Emiellucifuge

After having listened to all of your music, a certain kind of problem, and a solution (IMHO) emerged common to all.

Problem: Harmony

Solution: study the roots of harmony - 16th century counterpoint

I'm sure there will be many that would disagree with this, but in my experience, understanding the roots of something leads to greater and deeper understanding of its manifestations.

What the ultimate gain of knowledge in understanding this music and being able to compose some short pieces in the style, is that harmony is a function of melody.

First, one must understand melody. Then voices are added - melody on melody - the result - harmony.

Now, one can go further back than the 16th century (and please do - study chant), but, it was at this time when certain qualities that would become pillars of the functional tonal system were established. In essence, harmonic motion became a part of the musical structure. Not in keys, but modes - a subtle but very important distinction. Scales would emerge in the next century. (although, it was in terms of orchestration, rhythm, and form that the most overt changes in the music would occur until the 20th century) At any rate, this was a radical departure from most other music - it is counterpoint that distinguishes western classical music from all other music. It is the principals behind it that have allowed for such great innovation. Invention must come from somewhere - the question you have to ask yourself is do you want to be aware of what it is, or simply go on instincts.

This is very vague, and has to be for the nature of a forum. But I can almost guarantee more successful composition with a firm basis of understanding of where the harmonic system comes from, and how it functions with melody. 

Please ask any questions if you have any.

Yours truly,

Scott


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## SenorTearduct

Are you suggesting a study into figured bass notation, and proper construction of cords above these in conjunction with proper study of progression, retrogression, and repetition? or is this something else?
and by something else I'm ruling out the notion of a fugue/canon counterpoint study....


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## Scott Good

SenorTearduct said:


> Are you suggesting a study into figured bass notation, and proper construction of cords above these in conjunction with proper study of progression, retrogression, and repetition? or is this something else?
> and by something else I'm ruling out the notion of a fugue/canon counterpoint study....


Nope - go earlier. No figured bass. No chords. It is simply melody against melody done harmoniously.

Certainly issues of repetition are in 16th century music - absolutely and deeply. The word used more commonly is imitation. And most certainly canon, a kind of imitation, will be part of this.

Here is the order of study loosely laid out by American theorist Robert Gauldin:

1: melody
2: two voice texture - note against note
3: more ornamental melody
4: Three voice texture
5: Cadence
6. imitation
7. paraphrase and canon
8. four voice texture
9. familiar style (unison rhythm)
10: motet
11. parody
12.extended chromatisism
13.species counterpoint

Honestly, just focusing on the first few lessons would do great benefit. There are many that would disagree, thinking that 18th century music is the place to start (as it is done everywhere I have seen). But, I'm not so convinced.


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## chillowack

Scott, do you have any compositions posted here?


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## Scott Good

chillowack said:


> Scott, do you have any compositions posted here?


I don't. But you can visit www.myspace.com/scottgoodcomposer. Only short samples though.


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## chillowack

Thanks, Scott--that's some very nice work!

So as not to hijack Tearduct's thread, I will ask you some questions in my String Quartet thread.


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## SenorTearduct

Yes, this is very good! how long have you been writing?


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## SenorTearduct

Hey to anyone who is intrested... I just finished the first movement of my second symphony...

I heavily feel I have fufiled any previous critiques...

I cannot post it on hear, it it too big a piece.
if you wish private message me an email or somthing...

I can honestly say I struck a nerve with this one.


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## chillowack

SenorTearduct said:


> Hey to anyone who is intrested... I just finished the first movement of my second symphony...
> 
> I heavily feel I have fufiled any previous critiques...
> 
> I cannot post it on hear, it it too big a piece.
> if you wish private message me an email or somthing...
> 
> I can honestly say I struck a nerve with this one.


I am listening to it right now, and I think it's definitely some of the most interesting work I've heard from you so far!


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## SenorTearduct

Thanks!! Im considering shortining the last part though


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