# Gurre-lieder by Schoenberg.



## BenG (Aug 28, 2018)

I'm new to this huge piece of Music. I find it very Wagnerian and Mahlerian. What do you think of the composition, and any recommendations for recordings?


----------



## Bluecrab (Jun 24, 2014)

It's clearly an ambitious work. Schoenberg seems to have completed it in 1910 after having left it aside for about a decade. Even though he was composing atonal music by then, this work is clearly tonal. The recording I have is conducted by Giusseppe Sinopoli. I'd certainly recommend it.

If you like this work, try his "String Quartet 0" (quartet in D major). Another tonal work that seems to have influences from the late Romantic period. But don't get me wrong: I love his atonal and twelve-tone music.


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

That piece was my official introduction to Schoenberg. Before that, I was a Webern purist, claiming that Schoenberg was just Brahms played with wrong notes. Someone suggested Gurrelieder, and that's when I discovered that I was suffering from unreasonable prejudice, which I then quickly overcame.


----------



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I love the work.
Very beautiful and interesting.
I haven't heard them all.
This is my current favorite:










I also like the live Salonen live version.


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Gurrelieder was a tough nut for me to crack when I was a kid, but then somehow the heavens opened and it all made sense. This piece and Pelleas und Melisande are my favorite Schoenberg by far. We have been blessed with many fine recordings. My introduction was Kubelik on DG. In the digital era, Chailly and Ozawa both made terrific recordings. And others have, too, but I haven't kept up with the newer releases. Like the Mahler symphonies, this score demands high fidelity recording and playback to really make an impact. There is a Blu Ray version out now that I may have to acquire.


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Schonberg may have considered it passé by the time he completed it but I'm glad he didn't abandon it altogether. A formidable work - probably the last great secular cantata of the romantic era (assuming Rachmaninov's _The Bells_ isn't considered a cantata). Despite the time difference of thirty years it reminds me of Mahler's _Das klagende Lied_ more than anything. I have Seiji Ozawa's recording on Philips with Jessye Norman and James McCracken but, if I recall correctly, reviews were mixed.


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I love this one! I have two different Boulez recordings on Sony. The full version for orchestra, and the Lied Der Waldtaube excerpt for chamber orchestra featuring Jessye Norman. These are now available in the 11 CD budget set which is a steal for all of the great music it includes. https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8028407--pierre-boulez-conducts-schoenberg


----------



## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I love the work -- especially Part I. But every time I hear it, and Waldemar is riding headlong towards Tove -- awaiting him breathlessly on the parapet, I keep envisioning the scene being played by Nelson Eddy and Jeanette MacDonald.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I love the work but the way I think of it is always influenced by the references to it in Peter Hoeg's novel, _Miss Smilla's Feeling for Snow_. If I am remembering rightly one of the minor characters is a great baritone whose speciality was Gurrelieder. Hoeg has the work stand as a key moment in the final collapse of the old world and the coming of modernism. That sounds simple enough but his language for saying this was compelling in some way.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

\

I've got the DG, and this other one, conducted by Rene Liebowitz. I think he is a good conductor, and he 
is always associated with well-engineered recordings.

 









There's the Robert Craft on KOCH, and the Philips two-fer. These all seem to have gone up in price. They are all good recordings; I seem to prefer the Liebowitz. Then, there's the Boulez/Sony, which, curiously, does not have an adequate image in Amazon. Also, while there, I read some good reviews about the newest Esa-Pekka Salonen version (in hybrid SACD/CD). I bet this one sounds fantastic in hi-def. The piece itself is massive, bigger than Wagner. Also, there's a little of the "Dracula" myth in the story, when Waldemar curses God for taking Tove, and retaliates by forming a gang of night-roving ghouls on horseback. 
Cool! Skulls are cool!


----------



## aussiebushman (Apr 21, 2018)

I'll never forget the first time I heard this work many years ago on FM radio. I had missed the announcer's introduction. Being pretty familiar with most Wagner compositions I kept wondering which piece I was hearing without being to place it. At the conclusion of the piece when the details were announced, I was hooked - and now play this wonderful work quite regularly - the Boulez in particular


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Bump for a great work...?

What a massive and beautiful piece of music. Totally opened my eyes to another side of Schoenberg. Really, this even stands out among his early works. If this is what he wanted to do, Schoenberg could have became a worthy successor of Wagner and Mahler, maybe could have even surpassed them in this art form. But of course we all know he went and did his own thing, and became... even greater than he would have otherwise been? I don't know.






This is the version I've been listening to.

I'm not too too familiar with any period in this great composer's career, so I'm wondering, are there any pieces from his atonal/12-tone period that are in any way akin to this? Maybe Pierrot Lunaire, Moses und Aron, Jacob's Latter...? I don't expect anything to sound similar, just something on the same scope, maybe?

Any fans? I feel like there's a lot to unpack here.


----------



## MusicSybarite (Aug 17, 2017)

This is by very very far my favorite Schonberg work, a formidable continuation of the Wagnerian-Mahlerian tradition of gargantuan forces and lush late-romanticism, something simply magnificent! I only have the recording of Chailly-Decca and I'm quite glad with it. I wish Schonberg had given us more works like this one before undertaking his dodecaphonic phase. Pelleas et Melisande is kind of close but it's much less inspired IMHO.


----------



## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I'm not overly fond of Schoenberg... but I do like this work. I have two recordings:

















I find both to be marvelous recordings/performances.


----------



## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

Simply outstanding if you can find it.


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

I don't know how many here are familiar with this chamber orchestra arrangement of the Lied der Waldtaube (arranged by the composer himself, or no?) - but it is well worth a listen. This performance by Jessye Norman with Pierre Boulez and the Ensemble Intercontemporain is excellent. Schoenberg was a hell of an orchestrator.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I have recently become a little more obsessed with this work. For quite a while when I reached for Schoenberg I would choose one of his 12 tone works and somehow hadn't listened to this for quite some time. What a powerful and confident work it is! But does it get the respect and love it deserves? Not many commented in this thread, for example. And yet its sound world and language are Wagner+ or even late Mahler - big and very popular names - and it ought to be loved by most of those who love Wagner or Mahler (or, indeed, Schmidt). I know many of us do love it but not as many, I feel, as might have been expected. Do many people who love late Romantic music avoid it because they "don't like Schoenberg"? Or am I wrong: do many dislike it for itself?


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Enthusiast said:


> Do many people who love late Romantic music avoid it because they "don't like Schoenberg"? Or am I wrong: do many dislike it for itself?


I'm guessing that when people learn about Schoenberg, they start with his atonal/12-tone music. When I was studying music back in the day, that's where the music history classes on him started. I'm looking at Rogert Greenberg's Great Courses set on music history, and his example is Pierre Lunaire. So I think Gurre Lieder just needs more PR work.


----------



## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

I can only add that I had a mental image of Schönberg's music that was enough to frighten -and kill- horses (and I even knew Verklärte Nacht wasn't in that mould, so you shouldn't always judge the book by the cover). For some reason, too, the ugliness of the word "Gurrelieder" made me fear it was a nasty atonal work. Imagine my surprise to discover a gorgeous work that sounded positively Mahlerian.

I think it doesn't get the attention it deserves because of who wrote it, and the fear that name strikes in the heart of tonalists everywhere, in other words!

Anyway... I'm a bit more educated about it these days, so I can recommend it to friends without shame or anxiety about the consequences


----------



## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Manxfeeder said:


> I'm guessing that when people learn about Schoenberg, they start with his atonal/12-tone music. When I was studying music back in the day, that's where the music history classes on him started. I'm looking at Rogert Greenberg's Great Courses set on music history, and his example is Pierre Lunaire. So I think Gurre Lieder just needs more PR work.


I have several lectures by Greenberg, on DVD, and just cannot get over the annoyance of the static sequence of self-conscious arm and body movements. Someone obviously told him that this is what he needs to do to keep the camera interested.


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

JAS said:


> I have several lectures by Greenberg, on DVD, and just cannot get over the annoyance of the static sequence of self-conscious arm and body movements. Someone obviously told him that this is what he needs to do to keep the camera interested.


I just have the audio lectures, so I guess I'm spared the irritation.


----------



## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

Although I did not come from a musical family, and classical music was completely foreign to my mother (who liked the Beatles and Bob Dylan), she encouraged my interest in classical music during my teenage years; and gave me a copy of Harold Schoenberg's _Lives of the Great Composers_, for Christmas when I was sixteen. When I got to the chapter on _The Second School of Vienna_; I was captivated with Arnold Schoenberg's personality, just because he was such a stubborn, uncompromising, and independent spirit, as well as, a devoted teacher who developed such a loyal following that his works are routinely programmed on records and CDs with his students, Berg and Webern, like a Viennese law firm: _Schoenberg, Berg & Webern_.

Along this line, Harold Schonberg theorized that Arnold Schoenberg's _Moses and Aron_ is autobiographical in that Moses is like Schoenberg bringing forth a new covenant to an undisciplined mob. From that point forward, I really wanted to like the music of Schoenberg, but was more-often-than-not completely mystified by it save for the powerful _Survivor from Warsaw_ which despite being fully 12-tone is not really that difficult, even for a novice, because of the narration.

Anyway, and as silly as it may sound, I continued to purchase Schoenberg's music on records and CDs, not because I liked his music but because I _wanted_ to like his music. Hoping that someday I would see the light, and after many years, my patience and perseverance paid off as Schoenberg's oeuvre went from mystifying, to tolerable, to listenable, to interesting, to enjoyable. Some guys spend years working on their golf swing, but I spend years trying to unlock the keys to difficult works of classical music. I think that works like _Gurre-Lieder_ and _Transfigured Night_ are key to understanding Schoenberg because it gives the listener a starting point to understanding Schoenberg's musical vision which is rooted in Wagner and Brahms. As much as Schoenberg may sound Ultra-Modern to most, he considered himself a traditionalist, the next logical step in the German tradition. Moreover, he considered himself a Romantic, calling his style "Expressionist" after the Expressionist painters to which he was also one himself. So when I listen to full-blown 12-tone works such as _Serenade_ or _Moses Und Aron_, I like to think of it as _Transfigured Night_ or _Gurre-Lieder_ turned inside out, where Wagner's sense of passion and Brahms sense of fine German craftsmanship meet at the summit.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

starthrower said:


> I love this one! I have two different Boulez recordings on Sony. The full version for orchestra, and the Lied Der Waldtaube excerpt for chamber orchestra featuring Jessye Norman. These are now available in the 11 CD budget set which is a steal for all of the great music it includes. https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8028407--pierre-boulez-conducts-schoenberg


I'm glad to know that Lied Der Waldtaube is a chamber version. I think I already have it. Is the mastering on that box set any better than the individual releases, or do you even have those?


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

flamencosketches said:


> Bump for a great work...?
> 
> What a massive and beautiful piece of music. Totally opened my eyes to another side of Schoenberg. Really, this even stands out among his early works. *If this is what he wanted to do, Schoenberg could have became a worthy successor of Wagner and Mahler, maybe could have even surpassed them in this art form.* But of course we all know he went and did his own thing, and became... even greater than he would have otherwise been? I don't know.
> 
> ...


On a harmonic-language level, I hear similarity in Pelleas und Mellisande, but it has no vocals. Also, try The Book of the Hanging Gardens.

I agree with the bolded part. It's work like this, and his textbook Harmonielehre that convinced me that he was a worthy successor to Wagner and Mahler, and knew the tonal language so completely.


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

millionrainbows said:


> On a harmonic-language level, I hear similarity in Pelleas und Mellisande, but it has no vocals. Also, try The Book of the Hanging Gardens.
> 
> I agree with the bolded part. It's work like this, and his textbook Harmonielehre that convinced me that he was a worthy successor to Wagner and Mahler, and knew the tonal language so completely.


I really do need to check out Pelleas und Melisande. I have heard the Karajan recording a while back and really enjoyed it at the time, but never followed up and got the CD.

Been some time since I've heard Gurre-Lieder. My heart isn't really in the late Romantic right now, but I will have to revisit it soon. I ended up buying the Sinopoli box which includes his recording of the work.


----------



## aussiebushman (Apr 21, 2018)

Ever played the game "Desert Island Disks"? 

At my advanced age and with decades of listening and learning about various forms of "classical" music, there is no shortage of choice for my "final" disk selection but the Gurrelieder gets my vote. 

Not only is it a gorgeous piece of music, but it offers the listener a palate of orchestral richness and vocal artistry pretty well unmatched elsewhere - and yes, I'm a Mahlrer and Wagner lover saying that!


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Coach G said:


> ...........but I spend years trying to unlock the keys to difficult works of classical music. I think that works like _Gurre-Lieder_ and _Transfigured Night_ are key to understanding Schoenberg because it gives the listener a starting point to understanding Schoenberg's musical vision which is rooted in Wagner and Brahms. As much as Schoenberg may sound Ultra-Modern to most, he considered himself a traditionalist, the next logical step in the German tradition. Moreover, he considered himself a Romantic, calling his style "Expressionist" after the Expressionist painters to which he was also one himself. So when I listen to full-blown 12-tone works such as _Serenade_ or _Moses Und Aron_, I like to think of it as _Transfigured Night_ or _Gurre-Lieder_ turned inside out, where Wagner's sense of passion and Brahms sense of fine German craftsmanship meet at the summit.


Good stuff! I used to find the supposedly more challenging works - the serial ones - sounded very like Romantic music in mood and structure ... just the notes were different!


----------



## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

I've been getting more into Schoenberg over the past couple of years. Like others commenting in this thread, I was for a long time intimidated by Schoenberg, but took seriously his signal influence on 20th Century music so wanted to appreciate him beyond _Verklärte Nacht_ a few other relatively accessible works. Because I tend to like vocal music, I dove into the _Gurrelieder_ and it's become a current favorite. Roughly speaking, I hear it as Mahlerian along the lines of DLvdE, but of course with a character of its own. I have just been listening to one recording and haven't tried others: Gielen/SWR-Orchester. It has gotten very good reviews and I find it excellent. Gielen is a major interpreter of Schoenberg and recorded many other works, too, which I will start listening to in due course. (There's an affordable 12-CD box set of Gielen/SWR performing Schoenberg, Berg, and Webern.)


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I agree quite strongly with comparing Gurrelieder to Das Klagende Lied, both early major cantata-like choral works with more than surfaced similarities. While they aren't quite as similar, I might also add Sibelius' Kullervo and Vaughan Williams Sea Symphony to the list. It is interesting just how many major composers jumped in the deep end in their early career - the arrogance of youth?


----------



## thejewk (Sep 13, 2020)

Just coming to the end of my first listen to the first part of Pierre Boulez recording of Guerrelieder in the massive Sony/RCA set, and I'm blown away. Just massive and romantic. Coming to this after having listened to many other Schoenberg pieces is rather a shock to the system.

I am completely unfamiliar with Mahler too. Maybe this is a signal that I should pick up a set of his symphonies soon?


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

thejewk said:


> I am completely unfamiliar with Mahler too. Maybe this is a signal that I should pick up a set of his symphonies soon?


Uh, yeah, I'd say so.


----------



## Ulfilas (Mar 5, 2020)

thejewk said:


> Just coming to the end of my first listen to the first part of Pierre Boulez recording of Guerrelieder in the massive Sony/RCA set, and I'm blown away. Just massive and romantic. Coming to this after having listened to many other Schoenberg pieces is rather a shock to the system.
> 
> I am completely unfamiliar with Mahler too. Maybe this is a signal that I should pick up a set of his symphonies soon?


Maybe start with Mahler 2 if you're coming from Gurrelieder?

If you want to stick with Boulez, his recording on DG is fantastic.


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Ulfilas said:


> Maybe start with Mahler 2 if you're coming from Gurrelieder?
> 
> View attachment 145071


Good suggestion. Either Mahler 2 or Das Lied von der Erde, I'd say.


----------

