# Schubert D960 (last piano sonata)



## kangxi

I have a slight problem with Schubert's last piano sonata (B Flat Maj D960). Surely this is a masterpiece? And therefore flawless? Well, yes, but over the years I've gone a bit ambivalent. Undoubtedly the first and second movements are sublime and heartbreaking. They're among the highest achievements in classical music - I don't think there'll be much argument there. But they are so great that, imho, they are set at too high a standard to be consistently maintained. The 2 movements that follow have just a touch of bathos. They're just not - compared to the first two - good enough, and they unbalance the piece as a whole. They aren't of course bad: they're top class Schubert after all. But they aren't at the transcendental level of perfection of the first 2. 
Or am I alone in thinking this? I'm prepared to be slaughtered on this one...


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## Guest

I think you make a fair point. 

I love Schubert and along with Mozart, Beethoven and J S Bach they form my all-time top favourites. But I wouldn't pretend that everything that Schubert wrote is wonderful, or even that all the movements within a multi-movement work that I think is great are all of the same high quality. 

In the case of D960, it is unambiguously among the very top-rated works in the entire piano solo repertoire. Although it is often portrayed as being quite bleak and foreboding of Schubert's impending death, overall this work is not as dark as some of his earlier sonatas. The first two movements, especially the slow movement, are extraordinary, brilliant and inspired. The slow movement, which is the centre of the work, has something of the extremely serene slow movement of the string quintet D 956, but there's nothing quite like it in the rest of his piano music. The last two movements do seem rather more pedestrian by comparison. The fourth is quite good but the third is perhaps a little weaker. 

However, this is Schubert all over. He probably wrote the first two movements in one of his inspired periods, which his friends would describe as if it looked like his eyes were fixed and glazed, like he was sleepwalking. Then he would snap out of it and realise that he had probably "lost it" before the work was finished. Remember that D 960 was written in his last weeks of life when he knew he was gravely ill and was probably both exhausted and anxious to complete other various unfinished works. Given these circumstances, he may have had little time to finish off all of these works (including D 960) to his complete satisfaction, and simply did his best in the short time available. I would far sooner have the total of D 960 as it is, rather be bereft of these last two movements.

Probably something similar happened with regard to several other high quality works, like D 759 "Unfinished Symphony". He may have written what there is of this great work in a period of high inspiration, but couldn't finish it off to the same standard, so he moved on to something else instead.


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## EdwardBast

kangxi said:


> Or am I alone in thinking this? I'm prepared to be slaughtered on this one...


You aren't alone. Along these lines, the great critic, Donald Francis Tovey, at various points in his _Essays in Musical Analysis_, discusses what he believes to be a general "finale problem" in the large-scale works of Romantic composers. I seem to remember it coming up a number of times, but these books never have indexes that go beyond composers and works. But I found two such references in his analysis of symphonies by Tchaikovsky. At the beginning of his essay on the Pathetique, Tovey writes: "… and the slow finale, with its complete simplicity of despair, is a stroke of genius which solves all the artistic problems that have proved most baffling to symphonic writers since Beethoven." In his essay on Tchaikovsky's Fifth, he quotes the above and continues the thought, citing a general problem of "getting up any sense of movement in a finale at all; and I am afraid my _locus classicus_ in that matter is the finale of Tchaikovsky's Fifth Symphony." Other writers have discussed this "finale problem." I think William S. Newman, in his great survey of the romantic sonata, is among them. Not sure about this though …


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## Ukko

The "problem" with those last two movements is in how the first two movements are interpreted - and the errant impressions that interpretation lays on the listener. Listen to Schnabel and/or to Kempff, with an uncontaminated mind.

If that doesn't do it for you... it really is your problem. Of course you can blame Schubert if you want to.


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## Guest

I have the same issue with Beethoven's 7th Symphony. Two of my favorite movements ever, followed by two good movements.


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## Mandryka

Ukko said:


> The "problem" with those last two movements is in how the first two movements are interpreted - and the errant impressions that interpretation lays on the listener. Listen to Schnabel and/or to Kempff, with an uncontaminated mind.
> 
> If that doesn't do it for you... it really is your problem. Of course you can blame Schubert if you want to.


I agree -- one interesting pianist in this is Eduard Erdmann, who seems to play the first movement almost like a prelude to the other three. I like what he does in a way more than Kempff and Schnabel because there's an edginess about his interpretation which those two lack. I think edginess is an important thing in Schubert.


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## DavidA

I agree that the last two movements have not the feeling of the first two. But did Schubert really want to end in bleakness? Perhaps he might have lightened his mood deliberately?

It is such a sublime work. Every great pianist seems to be able to put a different slant on it: eg

Richter, Kempff, Schnabel, Anda, Lupu, Fleisher, Kovacevich, et al.

I have the above. I know Horowitz recorded it. Anyone opinions on it?


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## Ukko

Mandryka said:


> I agree -- one interesting pianist in this is Eduard Erdmann, who seems to play the first movement almost like a prelude to the other three. I like what he does in a way more than Kempff and Schnabel because there's an edginess about his interpretation which those two lack. I think edginess is an important thing in Schubert.


Chacun à son goût. Edginess can work in "The Wanderer" Fantasy... in D958 - D960 the mind should wander some.


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## Headphone Hermit

kangxi said:


> I have a slight problem with Schubert's last piano sonata (B Flat Maj D960). Surely this is a masterpiece? And therefore flawless? QUOTE]
> 
> I don't wish to deny the many sensible comments above, but I don't agree that a masterpiece has to be flawless. As a 20-year old, I was surprised to read the intorduction to a famous novel from the 19th century that said something like "This is a great novel but it has great weaknesses as well as great strengths". After 30 years of reading lots and lots of classic literature, I now understand how a great work of art can have flaws as well - perfection in human activity is difficult to envisage, surely?


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## peeyaj

The perfect Schubert last sonata:

1st movement - D.960
2nd movement - D.959
3rd movement - D.959
4th movement - D.958


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## KenOC

peeyaj said:


> The perfect Schubert last sonata:
> 
> 1st movement - D.960
> 2nd movement - D.959
> 3rd movement - D.959
> 4th movement - D.958


An inspiration! I'm gonna use audacity to adjust the pitches of the movements and see how this works out.


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## Andreas

While I don't really feel that way about the Schubert D960, I felt reminded of Bruckner's 7th. At times, I feel that it is somewhat anti-climactic, given the expansive and intense first two movements. But then again, whenever I listen to the scherzo and finale, I am completely enthralled. Theoretically, the symphony should feel rather top-heavy, so to speak. (No. 8 is a kind of mirror image, where the first two movements almost have a preludian quality.)

Perhaps the 3rd and 4th movements in the classical form (minuet/scherzo and finale) are the most functional movements. Functional in the sense that their purpose is to a large extend to complete the necessary formal requirements.

I've heard that, traditionally, the sonata-allegro is the movement where the composer displays all his craft and wit, his inventiveness and his cleverness. The slow movement, on the other hand, showcases the depth of his emotions, his lyric side, his heart and soul, if you like.

A simplistic formula, but, I find, at least concernign the classical era, not entirely without legitimacy.


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## Mandryka

Ukko said:


> Chacun à son goût. Edginess can work in "The Wanderer" Fantasy... in D958 - *D960 the mind should wander some.*


Have you heard Affanassiev's (wonderful) second recording of it?


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## Ukko

Mandryka said:


> Have you heard Affanassiev's (wonderful) second recording of it?


Hah. Yes. I think maybe _his_ mind wandered some; forgot what he was doing intermittently. The ECM recording establishes the maximum length the music can be stretched without breaking.


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## Guest

peeyaj said:


> The perfect Schubert last sonata:
> 
> 1st movement - D.960
> 2nd movement - D.959
> 3rd movement - D.959
> 4th movement - D.958


I hope you checked out all 81 permutations before making this recommendation.


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## hreichgott

arcaneholocaust said:


> I have the same issue with Beethoven's 7th Symphony. Two of my favorite movements ever, followed by two good movements.


That's exactly how I feel about my favorite Schubert, D. 845.
Either of the first two movements could be performed on its own and is full of musical and emotional heft.
The other two are good, but they really only are worth hearing in the context of the whole sonata.


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## Guest

hreichgott said:


> That's exactly how I feel about my favorite Schubert, D. 845.
> Either of the first two movements could be performed on its own and is full of musical and emotional heft.
> The other two are good, but they really only are worth hearing in the context of the whole sonata.


Picking up on this, probably like most people, I started out by liking the last three sonatas, D 958-960, best of all.

The second movement of D 959 in particular was a complete revelation to me when I first heard it. I still find it to be one of the most arresting pieces of solo piano music ever written, and for me it catapulted Schubert well into the "Romantic" sphere, if there was any doubt previously, which there wasn't.

That was many years ago. When I next delved into his earlier piano sonatas, yet more treasures came tumbling out. Among these, I have big soft spots for:

- D 840, "Reliquie", which bowls me over each time I hear it. The eerie, sombre nature of the work is amazing.

- D 845, which is another amazing work, and I share your liking of it. I have versions by Kempff, Lewis, and Staier (fortepiano).

- D 850 "Gasteiner" is another that I like, especially the second movement which at first is so serene before leading into one of those nice melodies, which is so utterly Schubertian. My favourite version is by Michael Dalberto.

- D 894 "Fantasy" has that soporific, long opening movement, which I reckon must have been the result of one Schubert's glazed eye, almost sleep-walking, sessions that his friends commented upon. My favourite version of this sonata is by Maria João Pires, who I consider to be among the best Schubert interpreters.


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## shangoyal

I am with the OP when he says that the first 2 movements are better than the last 2 - I have felt the same disappointment when listening to the piece. Sometimes I also feel that the 1st movement being so long is a separate piece. But it's a common problem - there are not many pieces in which all movements are equally fine - in fact the sour imperfection in a way makes us really value the few true masterpieces.


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## Alydon

kangxi said:


> I have a slight problem with Schubert's last piano sonata (B Flat Maj D960). Surely this is a masterpiece? And therefore flawless? Well, yes, but over the years I've gone a bit ambivalent. Undoubtedly the first and second movements are sublime and heartbreaking. They're among the highest achievements in classical music - I don't think there'll be much argument there. But they are so great that, imho, they are set at too high a standard to be consistently maintained. The 2 movements that follow have just a touch of bathos. They're just not - compared to the first two - good enough, and they unbalance the piece as a whole. They aren't of course bad: they're top class Schubert after all. But they aren't at the transcendental level of perfection of the first 2.
> Or am I alone in thinking this? I'm prepared to be slaughtered on this one...


I agree with your comments & having just listened again to this greatest of sonatas I conclude that the 1st & 2nd movements are so sublime that the following formats of scherzo & rondo just can't measure up to the previous two. However, I feel that Schubert was mirroring the profoundness of the 1st two movements with a kind of resolution with the light scherzo and the final wonderful life affirming final bars of the sonata.

I have always had the same feeling in the back of my mind regarding D894. The heavenly 1st movement followed by troubled andante but the 3rd and 4th movements somehow don't fit the previous musical train of thought. I think in my case I have always been besotted by Richter's version of this sonata and he takes over 26 minutes over the 1st movement which may unbalance the rest of the sonata. Having said that I find most of the other sonatas are a coherent whole, though we will all have favourite individual movements.


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## Alydon

DavidA said:


> I agree that the last two movements have not the feeling of the first two. But did Schubert really want to end in bleakness? Perhaps he might have lightened his mood deliberately?
> 
> It is such a sublime work. Every great pianist seems to be able to put a different slant on it: eg
> 
> Richter, Kempff, Schnabel, Anda, Lupu, Fleisher, Kovacevich, et al.
> 
> I have the above. I know Horowitz recorded it. Anyone opinions on it?


I have never heard Horowitz but listened to a very interesting recording by Myra Hess which I'm seeking out and may well go into my top choices.


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## Blancrocher

Partita said:


> D 840, "Reliquie", which bowls me over each time I hear it. The eerie, sombre nature of the work is amazing.


Indeed, Donald Tovey thought the first movement of this sonata one of the two perfect first movements in Schubert's entire oeuvre (the other being the one from the 8th Symphony). Perhaps if Schubert had finished it this thread would be about the "Reliquie"--though I'm not sure we'd be calling it that!

*p.s.* I see I'm not the first to mention Tovey on this thread. Nice to see!


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## hpowders

Like much of Schubert, I find this sonata too long and my mind starts wandering pretty quickly.


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## shangoyal

hpowders said:


> Like much of Schubert, I find this sonata too long and my mind starts wandering pretty quickly.


That gentleman in your avatar seems to say - "You shall take everything I say as a very profound and relevant truth"


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## hpowders

shangoyal said:


> That gentleman in your avatar seems to say - "You shall take everything I say as a very profound and relevant truth"


Heh! Heh! Yeah! He does look smart and he was!

My problem with Schubert is his long expositions and the musicians who perform his music, insisting on repeating the exposition.
For me this is absolute torture. If i want to hear a repeat of a long exposition, I will simply play the piece again!


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## PeterF

I have versions of D 960 by Pollini, Perahia, Brendel, Kempff, Richter, Lazic, and Schnabel.
It is very difficult to select one favorite. But I am leaning toward Kempff.


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## GKC

Partita said:


> I hope you checked out all 81 permutations before making this recommendation.


I think he only had to check 24 ;-)


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## Vaneyes

Sokolov (rec.1992), but I can bow to Richter and Schnabel. :tiphat:


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## DeepR

I've listened to this sonata only once. After that all I've ever listened to was the second movement as played by Richter.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

shangoyal said:


> I am with the OP when he says that the first 2 movements are better than the last 2 - I have felt the same disappointment when listening to the piece. Sometimes I also feel that the 1st movement being so long is a separate piece. But it's a common problem - there are not many pieces in which all movements are equally fine - in fact the sour imperfection in a way makes us really value the few true masterpieces.


I actually really like the scherzo in that piece - its playfulness evokes a wonderful contrast to the lyricism of the first two movements.


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