# Knappertsbusch Parsifal



## Notung (Jun 12, 2013)

Hey everyone, I have the Knappertsbusch '62 Parsifal (one of my favorite recordings) and was wondering which of his other Parsifals I should listen to. I narrowed it down to '51, '54, and '64, but still need a little help.

Any recommendations?


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

I haven't listened to any of them yet, but I recently received the '51 as part of the Wagner's Vision: Bayreuth Heritage box set. I've read that although most prefer the '62, the '51 mono version also has a following. Just passing that on.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Other than the 62, I think this is the one to have.
I just ordered it.
See pips post in the Recordings your considering thread in the Recorded music forum.


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## Pip (Aug 16, 2013)

I love the 1954 performance, it has some great casting. the chance to hear the Gurnemanz of Josef Greindl, who could turn his normal Wagnerian malevolence to one side and bring a world weary humanity to the role. Hotter as the noblest Amfortas of them all and the rest of the "A" team are all in great voice. 
this performance has great sound.


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

I don't have his '62 yet...it's still pretty expensive. I'm aiming to buy it soon, though.


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## Bill H. (Dec 23, 2010)

The '51 performance was the opening music drama of that first postwar Festival, after the Furtwängler Beethoven 9th which reconsecrated Bayreuth; Kna's performance was also a "cleansing" of sorts of the place. Hence a special sense of occasion was captured, in this case by the Decca recording engineers, who provided a higher level of fidelity than was normally to be the case with tapes made by the Bavarian Radio in many subsequent years.


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## Oreb (Aug 8, 2013)

The one Itullian posted is sublime - just sublime. It was for me the beginning of a huge man-crush on Jon Vickers' magnificent voice. 

Not to forget the 1951.

IMHO you need all three.


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## Yashin (Jul 22, 2011)

Thanks guys...am going to look into this too since you are all recommending it. My only worry might be about sound/stage noise. But will see if i can listen to tracks online first.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Revenant said:


> I haven't listened to any of them yet, but I recently received the '51 as part of the Wagner's Vision: Bayreuth Heritage box set. I've read that although most prefer the '62, the '51 mono version also has a following. Just passing that on.


May I ask how you like the set?


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## Stargazer (Nov 9, 2011)

I personally love the 1998 Bayreuth festival version. I really love the staging from it, and the music is performed top-notch!


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

Itullian said:


> May I ask how you like the set?


I've only listened to some selections thus far. The choices made are pretty good as far as I can tell. There are some that I've been looking to get for some time. Separate historical excerpts are interesting, some going back to 1907. Will have a more comprehensive idea when I manage to wade into it a little deeper. For a relative Wagner newbie like myself it's a steal at that price.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

I wanted to reopen this thead. I am very interested in Kna' with Parsifal but he made one live recording per year. I will listen to the 1962 and 1964 performances, but which is your top3?


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Granate said:


> I wanted to reopen this thead. I am very interested in Kna' with Parsifal but he made one live recording per year. I will listen to the 1962 and 1964 performances, but which is your top3?


I have all of Kna's Bayreuth Pasifals with the exception of '53 when he didn't do it and '55 which would appear to be unavailable in as much it has never appeared anywhere. I find it surprising because as far as I understand Bavarian radio always broadcast the festival performances and I can't believe that someone didn't record it somewhere or Bavarian radio didn't keep a recording of it.

My top 3, today, would include '51, '57 and '62 although it's an invidious choice to have to make. Tomorrow it might be different!


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

Barbebleu said:


> ...as far as I understand Bavarian radio always broadcast the festival performances...


What do you think about their mono sound quality? I am no audiophile but I really prefer stereo versions or terrific monos like Furtwängler's Beethoven 9. Orfeo however has fantastic digital remasterings of Knappertsbusch.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Granate said:


> What do you thing about their mono sound quality? I am no audiophile but I really prefer stereo versions or terrific monos like Furtwängler's Beethoven 9. Orfeo however has fantastic digital remasterings of Knappertsbusch.


When I first started collecting I was listening in mono. Didn't hear stereo 'til I heard it in a record store in Berlin in 1968. I listen to a lot of pre-electric stuff so mono doesn't bother me. If the actual performance is good and the sound is at least listenable then I'm happy. BTW the '53 Krauss Bayreuth Parsifal is rather good too.


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## cheftimmyr (Oct 28, 2015)

Itullian said:


> Other than the 62, I think this is the one to have.
> I just ordered it.
> See pips post in the Recordings your considering thread in the Recorded music forum.


The '64 with Vickers is excellent! I think the '51 is important to have as a reference and see the variation in tempo that evolves as Knap conducts this masterwork over the years.

I also second Barbie's suggestion of the 1953 Krauss. I found it intensely moving and it remains a "go-to" for me... I purchased the Krauss through Pristine Classical; sound is very good.


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## Vox Gabrieli (Jan 9, 2017)

Oreb said:


> The one Itullian posted is sublime - just sublime. It was for me the beginning of a huge man-crush on Jon Vickers' magnificent voice.
> 
> Not to forget the 1951.
> 
> IMHO you need all three.


 I could of sworn it was Quinten Tarantino I was watching, rather than John Vicker. The sudden realization was depressing.

One day....


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## Robe (Feb 2, 2016)

Number 1 = Knappertsbusch Bayreuth 1951 with Windgassen, Modl, Weber, London and Uhde--sublime.

Number 2 = Knappertsbusch Bayreuth 1962 with Thomas, London, Hotter, et al; very good.

No Number 3


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Revenant said:


> I haven't listened to any of them yet, but I recently received the '51 as part of the Wagner's Vision: Bayreuth Heritage box set. I've read that although most prefer the '62, the '51 mono version also has a following. Just passing that on.


I have that one too. 
The cheapest way to get all 10 operas at once.
I have been listening to Parsifal today will listen to the rest tomorrow.


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## bachelorswalk (May 19, 2016)

The 1957 Parsifal is free on Opera Depot this week.



Barbebleu said:


> I have all of Kna's Bayreuth Pasifals with the exception of '53 when he didn't do it and '55 which would appear to be unavailable in as much it has never appeared anywhere. I find it surprising because as far as I understand Bavarian radio always broadcast the festival performances and I can't believe that someone didn't record it somewhere or Bavarian radio didn't keep a recording of it.
> 
> My top 3, today, would include '51, '57 and '62 although it's an invidious choice to have to make. Tomorrow it might be different!


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

How could I have missed this thread!

Soundwise the best is the 62, however from the point of view of the performance my favourites are:

1) 52 (which features much the same cast as the famous 51 recording, but everybody is better this time round and this is Moedl's best all round Kundry IMO); and

2) 64 as I love Vickers in this role, this is Kna's last recorded take on the opera (and I think his best) and the rest of the cast are on fine form too.

N.


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## Admiral (Dec 27, 2014)

Is the Naxos the one to get for the '51 or has anyone else remastered it?


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Admiral said:


> Is the Naxos the one to get for the '51 or has anyone else remastered it?


Go with the Naxos. That's the one I've got and I'm happy with it.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

Admiral said:


> Is the Naxos the one to get for the '51 or has anyone else remastered it?


The SQ is supposedly better than many of the 50s performances, but the slow pace and Windgassen's voice in diapers is strong enough for me to pull it down the list. But if you happen to love the performance, go with Naxos then.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Parsifal can be a bit of a yawn-fest in parts and I must confess Kna's lumbering approach in 1951 doesn't help.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Admiral said:


> Is the Naxos the one to get for the '51 or has anyone else remastered it?


I bought a number of different versions (including the Naxos) and this one had the best sound:









It's $22.97 on Amazon.com

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

DavidA said:


> Parsifal can be a bit of a yawn-fest in parts and I must confess Kna's lumbering approach in 1951 doesn't help.


If you aren't particularly into the opera (or opera itself) then I wouldn't recommend any recording for you.

N.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Conte said:


> If you aren't particularly into the opera (or opera itself) then I wouldn't recommend any recording for you.
> 
> N.


I have three versions by Barenboim, Karajan and Kna

Must confess the two modern versions do at least allow you to wallow in the glories of the orchestration and ignore somewhat problematic text


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Conte said:


> I bought a number of different versions (including the Naxos) and this one was had the best sound:
> 
> View attachment 117633
> 
> ...


My copy of Kna's Parsifal came with the Karajan Mastersingers and Furtwangler Tristan for around £10


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

DavidA said:


> I have three versions by Barenboim, Karajan and Kna
> 
> Must confess the two modern versions do at least allow you to wallow in the glories of the orchestration and ignore somewhat problematic text


In terms of orchestral sound, Karajan's on Deutsche Grammophon is IMHO the most beautiful recording of _Parsifal_ ever made. The singers, particularly Kurt Moll, can hardly be faulted.

I'm not saying it's my all-time favourite, because it isn't, but it's very high on the list.


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## WildThing (Feb 21, 2017)

DavidA said:


> I have three versions by Barenboim, Karajan and Kna
> 
> Must confess the two modern versions do at least allow you to wallow in the glories of the orchestration and ignore somewhat problematic text


Some of us don't find the text problematic, mind you 



Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> In terms of orchestral sound, Karajan's on Deutsche Grammophon is IMHO the most beautiful recording of _Parsifal_ ever made. The singers, particularly Kurt Moll, can hardly be faulted.


I'm not sure about that. Its not hard to find fault with Hoffmann and Vejzovic in particular.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

WildThing said:


> I'm not sure about that. Its not hard to find fault with Hoffmann and Vejzovic in particular.


They're OK, even if they're not up to the same standard as the best exponents of their roles.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Hofmann is merely below average but Vejzovic is a blot. But Karajan's Parsifal boasts an unmatched Gurnemanz/Amfortas combo in Moll and Van Dam, and has my favorite Parsifal bells in the Transformation Music. Nimsgern is quite good as Klingsor too.

A good recording, but one that I'd put firmly behind the Kubelik and the '62 or '64 Knappertsbusch.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

howlingfantods said:


> A good recording, but one that I'd put firmly behind the Kubelik and the '62 or '64 Knappertsbusch.


Oh, indeed. I'd put Karajan behind Solti, too, but it's still a recording I wouldn't be without.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

WildThing said:


> Some of us don't find the text problematic, mind you


'A drearily befuddled story is illuminated from within by sound.'


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> 'A drearily befuddled story is illuminated from within by sound.'


It ain't _Parsifal_ that's drearily befuddled, fella. It's you. Just try not to leave the car keys in the refrigerator.


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## WildThing (Feb 21, 2017)

DavidA said:


> 'A drearily befuddled story is illuminated from within by sound.'


"Once you have heard and seen 'Parsifal,' you cannot forget it. The music and dramatic power with which it is wielded penetrate to the bone."


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

I should ask the mods if there is any way for users to hide a thread from the New posts section. It happens every time a certain someone puts the same trolling comment about a composer and a couple of other members cannot help seeing that someone is wrong on the internet. Is this funny to you? Is this your hobby?


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Granate said:


> I should ask the mods if there is any way for users to hide a thread from the New posts section. It happens every time a certain someone puts the same trolling comment about a composer and a couple of other members cannot help seeing that someone is wrong on the internet. Is this funny to you? Is this your hobby?


A mod sent me a note to resist posting unwanted notes on a thread today, Who is most influential as beginning the romantic era.I confessed to him, that I was out of order and no longer post on that thread, Its quite simple, ll that needs a note from the mod, and wa-la, done, 
They get the message, Besides I would have never been baited to respond toa comment like that. 
We all know the genius of the entire score, libretto/music, both perfect.
There is no way i'd respond to his *strange* comment.

But agree, its so off, why is he even on this topic.
I love the opera, and have KNA's 53, 54,,can't recall the exact yrs right now, But have 2 from KNA,,from the most glorious years of Bayreuth. !951-1955


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

WildThing said:


> "Once you have heard and seen 'Parsifal,' you cannot forget it. The music and dramatic power with which it is wielded penetrate to the bone."


after all these yeas, its still saturated with beauty, packed with power


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

paulbest said:


> after all these yeas, its still saturated with beauty, packed with power


I couldn't agree more, and for me "all these years" is over half a century. I recall Nietzsche saying that alongside _Parsifal_ other music seems like a "misunderstanding." It's mad hyperbole, of course, but quite impressive coming from him, since he'd already written "Nietzsche Contra Wagner."


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Granate said:


> I should ask the mods if there is any way for users to hide a thread from the New posts section. It happens every time a certain someone puts the same trolling comment about a composer and a couple of other members cannot help seeing that someone is wrong on the internet. Is this funny to you? Is this your hobby?


It's called "trolling", and as long as the perpetrator knows that it bothers you, they'll continue to troll you. The best thing that you can do with a troll is deprive them of attention, which is their oxygen. Without it, they starve and eventually die out.

I don't need a moderator to help me decide which posters and what posts to ignore.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

wkasimer said:


> It's called "trolling", and as long as the perpetrator knows that it bothers you, they'll continue to troll you. The best thing that you can do with a troll is deprive them of attention, which is their oxygen. Without it, they starve and eventually die out.
> 
> I don't need a moderator to help me decide which posters and what posts to ignore.


Another thing you can do is to block the poster so you can't see their posts. Or respond incredibly politely, but with a certain amount of irony. But often it is best to ignore those posts and deprive the poster of the oxygen as you say. (If people have the ability to respond with humor and make us laugh, that is fun though.)

N.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> I couldn't agree more, and for me "all these years" is over half a century. I recall Nietzsche saying that alongside _Parsifal_ other music seems like a "misunderstanding." It's mad hyperbole, of course, but quite impressive coming from him, since he'd already written "Nietzsche Contra Wagner."


Nice quote from Nietzsche, one of my hero's in this life...
though I take issues with some things he wrote,,,on this one,,,,,have to go with Nietzsche.
,,can I make 1 tiny exception, maybe 2? 
Mozart and Puccini.

Now you can write *Could not disagree more*,,and just to think, our views aligned for just one fleeting moment,,and now its all over.


But please correct me if I am wrong. 
I've read some of your posts, you know your period music far better than my tunnel vision, biased opinions of that era.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

paulbest said:


> Nice quote from Nietzsche, one of my hero's in this life...
> though I take issues with some things he wrote,,,on this one,,,,,have to go with Nietzsche.
> ,,can I make 1 tiny exception, maybe 2?
> Mozart and Puccini.
> ...


You (and everyone) might enjoy reading Nietzsche's comments _Parsifal_ on this tremendous web site devoted entirely to that opera:

http://www.monsalvat.no/nietzsch.htm

Nietzsche is probably better known for lambasting _Parsifal_ than for praising it, but his criticism was always for what he thought were Wagner's religious ideas. The music clearly moved him powerfully.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

WildThing said:


> "Once you have heard and seen 'Parsifal,' you cannot forget it. The music and dramatic power with which it is wielded penetrate to the bone."


I've seen it and you certainly can't forget the sheer length and slowness of the thing! Oh wearisome!
With Kna the length and slowness appear extended!

Someone else who saw it:
'Singing! It does seem the wrong name to apply to it. Strictly described, it is a practicing of difficult and unpleasant intervals, mainly. An ignorant person gets tired of listening to gymnastic intervals in the long run, no matter how pleasant they may be. In "Parsifal" there is a hermit named Gurnemanz who stands on the stage in one spot and practices by the hour, while first one and then another character of the cast endures what he can of it and then retires to die.'
(Mark Twain)


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## WildThing (Feb 21, 2017)




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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

I'm all for the '52 and '64 recordings because of their respective casts and Vickers. This is undoubtedly my favorite Wagnerian opera for its richness and depth.

(As a novice, humorist, and former riverboat captain, Twain would probably have preferred Tom Sawyer as Gurnemanz, perhaps speaking in a Southern dialect with a German accent. But that hardly has anything to do with the Kna recordings, one's limited attention span and general unhappiness with Wagner... Some listeners like to luxuriate in its pace, for _Parsifal_ is about the Holy Grail and the spirit of redemption.)


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Larkenfield said:


> I'm all for the '52 and '64 recordings because of their respective casts and Vickers. This is undoubtedly my favorite Wagnerian opera for its richness and depth.
> 
> (As a novice, humorist, and former riverboat captain, Twain would probably have preferred Tom Sawyer as Gurnemanz, perhaps speaking in a Southern dialect with a German accent. But that hardly has anything to do with the Kna recordings, one's limited attention span and personal unhappiness with Wagner in general... Some listeners like to luxuriate in its pace, for _Parsifal_ is about the Holy Grail and the spirit of redemption.)


Mark Twain was a humorist, of course, not a music critic. It's a humorist's job to make fun of things. Twain had some wry observations to make about his trip to Bayreuth, but in fact he liked Wagner's music, which is what drew him to Bayreuth in the first place. The famous remark, "Wagner's music is better than it sounds," was actually made by another humorist, Bill Nye (not the science guy).


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> You (and everyone) might enjoy reading Nietzsche's comments _Parsifal_ on this tremendous web site devoted entirely to that opera:
> 
> http://www.monsalvat.no/nietzsch.htm
> 
> Nietzsche is probably better known for lambasting _Parsifal_ than for praising it, but his criticism was always for what he thought were Wagner's religious ideas. The music clearly moved him powerfully.


Thank you much for bringing up the Niet link on Wagner, I will take a look.

Yes agree, Niet had his own ideas about what religion was all about, Many of these views were a bit lopsided. Yet with Jung also, he too failed to understand Christianity. Nietz was The Philosopher, and no others, Jung was The psychologist and no others. As for religion, both had erroneous ideas.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

WildThing said:


>


Wagner wasn't a hater then?

I put on Parsifal last night. Interesting that you can be beguiled by the scoring and at the same time be repeller by the subject matter.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

DavidA said:


> Wagner wasn't a hater then?


not as much as you are, obviously.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Zhdanov said:


> not as much as you are, obviously.


https://www.theguardian.com/music/2009/may/05/felix-mendelssohn-richard-wagner-classical-music


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Wagner wasn't a hater then?
> 
> I put on Parsifal last night. Interesting that you can be beguiled by the scoring and at the same time be repeller by the subject matter.


How much of this trolling do you think we're going to tolerate?


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

DavidA said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/music/2009/may/05/felix-mendelssohn-richard-wagner-classical-music


so what? you wrote that article?


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Wagner’s hostility notwithstanding toward Mendelssohn, there are at least ten full performances of his superb 6th String Quartet online, and over twelve full performances of his sparkling Italian Symphony by some of the top orchestras and conductors in the world—and these are just two of his works. Many other works can be found online including his supposedly boring Oratorios, not counting his ever popular and still played Violin Concerto... Not everyone who likes Mendelssohn chose Wagner over him, and not everyone who likes Mendelssohn likes Wagner at all. So either Mendelssohn‘s reputation was not permanent damaged or he’s made a comeback. But people don’t look into these things themselves and then Mendelssohn ends up sounding like a pitiful second-rate composer when he’s never been entirely forgotten. He’s still actively played and beloved despite Wagner’s corrosive criticism that has ended up damaging him as much as it may have damaged Mendelssohn‘s reputation at the time. Some composers have fallen out of public favor even without a Wagner beating up on them, and that includes Bach from the public’s perception, though I doubt that he was ever entirely forgotten by other composers who understood how great a master he was, and that includes Mozart, Mendelssohn, and Chopin, who recommended to his students that they play Bach every day to strengthen their hands and wrists. And now both Wagner and Mendelssohn have been long gone and can’t feel a thing, and the bitterness and resentment only reacts on the living.


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## Guest (May 7, 2019)

DavidA said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/music/2009/may/05/felix-mendelssohn-richard-wagner-classical-music


I wouldn't take the first bit of notice of Bernard Shaw; like typical socialists, he was a first class hater and that comes across loud and clear in all his odious and unctious pronouncements. God-awful man that he was.


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## WildThing (Feb 21, 2017)

Wagner didn't hate Mendelssohn at all. Despite his criticisms in "Judaism in Music" that Mendelssohn's music didn't "touch the soul", he also wrote that Mendelssohn displayed real talent as a composer. In his youth Wagner wrote with enthusiasm about the oratorio "St. Paul" and late in life expressed his admiration for the "Hebrides" overture. Several of Mendelssohn's themes and motifs are even quoted -- consciously or unconsciously -- in Wagner's operas.

Here's an interesting essay that questions Service's article:

Mendelssohn: Hero or Has Been? Or Did Wagner Really Do It?


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## Byron (Mar 11, 2017)

DavidA said:


> I've seen it and you certainly can't forget the sheer length and slowness of the thing! Oh wearisome!





DavidA said:


> I put on Parsifal last night.


No one here is interested in your sadomasochism.


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

David when it comes to repetition and boring people, Herr Richard has nothing on you.

Everytime you mention your grandchildren on here, I shudder as to your influence on them. It's time for someone to grow up.

You have personally alienated me from this board.

Move on please.


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

DavidA said:


> I've seen it and you certainly can't forget the sheer length and slowness of the thing! Oh wearisome!
> With Kna the length and slowness appear extended!
> 
> Someone else who saw it:
> ...


David when it comes to repetition and boring people, Herr Richard has nothing on you.

Everytime you mention your grandchildren on here, I shudder as to your influence on them. It's time for someone to grow up.

You have personally alienated me from this board.

Move on please.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

I am surprised at anyone on this planet who can honestly say this is not incredibly beautiful. And this here is the wirst conducting, KNA's 1950-1955 reveal much more character in depth and feelings than Levine, whose skills are lacking.

This must be the recording David knows Parsifal. 
Trust me, later on in life, David will secretly one day, come to love everything about Parsifal, its will happen. I've changed over the years I now how these things go,,,,,He is not trolling, he just needs time to mature in sensibilities.

Then like Parsifal, he too will find redemption,,~~~~right at Wagner's ~~~feet
All his slurs will be forgotten and forgiven.


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## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

big Knappertsbusch fan here... try his Bruckner and other Wagner recordings...


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Parsifal can be a bit of a yawn-fest in parts and I must confess Kna's lumbering approach in 1951 doesn't help.


You have made your point in this first post. Continuing simple, negative comments in a thread clearly meant to discuss a work loved by others is unnecessary and disruptive. As others have suggested, please move on.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> How much of this trolling do you think we're going to tolerate?


I'm going to guess that he'll troll for as long as people demonstrate that it's pissing them off. Ignore him and he'll go away. Even if he doesn't, you'll have more time for constructive activities. Tussling with a troll is perhaps the most unproductive activity known to man.

As for the topic at hand, I'm a big fan of '62 for its combination of sonics and performance. I sometimes pull 1951 and 1952 off the shelf, mostly to hear a younger London's Amfortas.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

wkasimer said:


> I'm going to guess that he'll troll for as long as people demonstrate that it's pissing them off. Ignore him and he'll go away. Even if he doesn't, you'll have more time for constructive activities. Tussling with a troll is perhaps the most unproductive activity known to man.
> 
> As for the topic at hand, I'm a big fan of '62 for its combination of sonics and performance. I sometimes pull 1951 and 1952 off the shelf, mostly to hear a younger London's Amfortas.


Heh heh. It doesn't take much time or effort to swat a mosquito, although its frustrating when the little pests live on to bite again.

I'm still devoted to the '62 Kna too. I can overlook the fact that both Hotter and London are a little past their vocal best for the sake of their subtlety (Hotter) and intensity (London). I find Irene Dalis's Kundry the most satisfying on recordings; she captures the whole character - the haggard messenger, the tortured victim, and the maternal/seductive temptress - with firm, dark, sensuous tone and full technical command. She's like a Martha Modl I can actually listen to with pleasure.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> I find Irene Dalis's Kundry the most satisfying on recordings; she captures the whole character - the haggard messenger, the tortured victim, and the maternal/seductive temptress - with firm, dark, sensuous tone and full technical command. She's like a Martha Modl I can actually listen to with pleasure.


I agree that Dalis is excellent - but my favorite Kundry is probably Crespin on the 1958 Bayreuth broadcast. It's a pity that she's saddled with Hans Beirer and Jerome Hines.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

wkasimer said:


> I agree that Dalis is excellent - but my favorite Kundry is probably Crespin on the 1958 Bayreuth broadcast.


I'd include Christa Ludwig and Maria Callas in that pantheon.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> I'd include Christa Ludwig and Maria Callas in that pantheon.


Ludwig is great, and Callas is fascinating, although Wagner sounds weird in Italian.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Wagner in Italian... Never substitute lasagna for schnitzel.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I can't believe that nobody has mentioned Modl or Meier as Kundry (and Ericson is good in the Kna 64 - one of my favourites).

N.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

The Conte said:


> I can't believe that nobody has mentioned Modl or Meier as Kundry (and Ericson is good in the Kna 64 - one of my favourites).


Mödl has been mentioned several times, albeit not very favorably...


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

wkasimer said:


> Mödl has been mentioned several times, albeit not very favorably...


You guys have no soul!!!

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> You guys have no soul!!!
> 
> N.


I'm too sensitive to the niceties of vocalism not to find Modl's oddly chesty, gusty vocal production tension-producing. She was a formidable artist, but often her singing sounds to me like a product of sheer will-power. In a way, Kundry was an ideal role for her smoky tone, but Ludwig and Dalis are more aurally seductive and don't activate my throat muscles as I listen.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I love the 62 Parsifal.
But the one I listen to most often is the Kubelik.
Why?
Because the last 2 acts are whole on the cd
And the first act is split in a reasonable place.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Itullian said:


> I love the 62 Parsifal.
> But the one I listen to most often is the Kubelik.
> Why?
> Because the last 2 acts are whole on the cd
> And the first act is split in a reasonable place.


The Kubelik is the one I like the most and listen to the most. But that said, just FYI, the 1964 Kna on Orfeo also has sensible cd splitting in the first act (right before Mein Sohn Amfortas) and acts 2 and 3 on single disks. I think I generally like it better than the 1962 lately--I like Vickers quite a lot more than Jess Thomas in this role, I much prefer Thomas Stewart to George London's Amfortas, and I think Hotter even sounds better than he does two years earlier. Barbara Ericson isn't quite as good as Dalis but she's in the neighborhood. Mono, but good, clean, detailed mono.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Actually the best performance on disc is orobably the one Karajan made in Vienna which has all the drama of a live performance and an Act 2 from Ludwig which is quite outstanding. Unfortunately the sound is not up to the performance.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Actually the best performance on disc is orobably the one Karajan made in Vienna which has all the drama of a live performance and an Act 2 from Ludwig which is quite outstanding. Unfortunately the sound is not up to the performance.


I can't agree. Fritz Uhl's Parsifal is poorly vocalized - really awful at times - and undoes Ludwig's fine work in Act 2. For some reason there are two singers doing Kundry, and the elderly Elisabeth Hongen makes ugly sounds in Act 1. Walter Berry is a good but not a great Klingsor. Despite its other virtues, this is not, on the whole, competitive with the very best performances, and its poor sound makes it a worthy supplement to a collection, but no more than that.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> Ludwig is great, and Callas is fascinating, although Wagner sounds weird in Italian.


It is a bit odd, I agree, but I can't think of many singers who portrayed the "wildcat" and "seductress" sides of Kundry as well as Callas. In many ways, it was an ideal part for her, and it's a shame that it isn't better preserved on record... or in German!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> It is a bit odd, I agree, but I can't think of many singers who portrayed the "wildcat" and "seductress" sides of Kundry as well as Callas. In many ways, it was an ideal part for her, and it's a shame that it isn't better preserved on record... or in German!


I agree. It's a pity that Callas never sang in German. Her later work in French indicates a fine sensitivity to languages. If I'm not mistaken, we can hear her at Juilliard coaching a singer in Beethoven's "Abscheulicher!" from _Fidelio_, and singing the occasional phrase in German. Elisabeth Schwarzkopf suggested that she sing some German Lieder, but she declined.


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