# Am I The Only One Who Hates 'Jeux'?



## Xavier (Jun 7, 2012)

One of the big mysteries for me in the world of classical music is why Debussy's Jeux, the poème danse, is considered by most fans and critics to be his.... _"supreme achievement, and certainly his greatest orchestral work"_

Now I have very wide tastes and adore a good deal of modernist music but I truly loathe it and this is aside from the fact that I find it contrived, austere, rigorously formed and hard-edged. It is not at all comparable (in my opinion) to the sensuality and inspiration of _Prelude To The Afternoon of A Faun, Pelleas et Melisande_ and _La Mer_.

I also think it is a snobbish statement to say that _Jeux_ is his symphonic masterpiece, just because it is one of the most "advanced" in its harmonic language.

Does anybody here honestly love this piece?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I think it is OK, but far from his best work. I also have never seen it claimed to be [your quote] considered by most fans and critics to be his.... "supreme achievement, and certainly his greatest orchestral work".


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Xavier said:


> One of the big mysteries for me in the world of classical music is why Debussy's Jeux, the poème danse, is considered by most fans and critics to be his.... _"supreme achievement, and certainly his greatest orchestral work"_
> 
> Now I have very wide tastes and adore a good deal of modernist music but I truly loathe it and this is aside from the fact that I find it contrived, austere, rigorously formed and hard-edged. It is not at all comparable (in my opinion) to the sensuality and inspiration of _Prelude To The Afternoon of A Faun, Pelleas et Melisande_ and _La Mer_.
> 
> ...


Yep, I do love 'Jeux' I also love 'La Mere,' the Sonata for harp, viola and flute -- as well as many other Debussy works I consider extremely masterful.

Really, you are talking like one of those audience members who would be happy if your favorite artists never grew, developed or changed, but wrote basically the same piece over and over again. Debussy wrote one 'L'apres midi d'un faun' which, though you perceive it differently, is as contrived, austere, rigorously formed and hard-edged as the later ballet score which is 'Jeux.'

... and you have every right to not care for the piece. It is, after all has been said and done, 'just a piece of music.'

By the way, I find 'Jeux' as equally sensuous and as great a visceral listening pleasure as I do 'L'apres midi....' Perhaps I am the only one on the planet to think / feel that way. I'm just far less concerned what others think of what I think, perhaps.

"Chacun à son goût." That is all


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## Xavier (Jun 7, 2012)

PetrB said:


> Really, you are talking like one of those audience members who would be happy if your favorite artists never grew, developed or changed, but wrote basically the same piece over and over again.


Wait what? Where did you get that idea??



> Debussy wrote one 'L'apres midi d'un faun' which, though you perceive it differently, is as contrived, austere, rigorously formed and hard-edged as the later ballet score which is 'Jeux.'


Huh? The _Faun_ is one of the *landmarks* in the general history of music.



> And you have every right to not care for the piece. It is, after all has been said and done, 'just a piece of music.'


Yes I agree about the obvious *un*importance of one's musical tastes to just about anything.


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2012)

Sign me up for liking _Jeux_ best.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Well, let me say on the outset that 'Jeux' is one of my favourite works by Debussy, but I like everything I've heard by him so far. His 24 preludes for piano is probably my favourite work by him though.



Xavier said:


> One of the big mysteries for me in the world of classical music is why Debussy's Jeux, the poème danse, is considered by most fans and critics to be his.... _"supreme achievement, and certainly his greatest orchestral work"_...


Well, coming at the end of his life, that assessment is based on how far he'd gone until that point in time. The other thing is that there where two other ballets apart from 'Jeux' but he never orchestrated them. These are also late works. The piano reduction is available I think on cd, I think on the BIS label.



> ...
> Now I have very wide tastes and adore a good deal of modernist music but I truly loathe it and this is aside from the fact that I find it contrived, austere, rigorously formed and hard-edged. It is not at all comparable (in my opinion) to the sensuality and inspiration of _Prelude To The Afternoon of A Faun, Pelleas et Melisande_ and _La Mer_...


It is different than those, for me its that strong psychological element. This can easily be a movie score, maybe a film noir or something like that. I'm not sure it has a theme, but there are fragments and ideas that pop up throughout the work in different guises. I like the way he contrasts textures and moods in this work. I think I actually like it more than his other orchestral works, another favourite being his 'Nocturnes' and 'Images.' 'Jeux' is a journey, but it may well be a journey without any fixed destination. & I like that vagueness.



> ...
> I also think it is a snobbish statement to say that _Jeux_ is his symphonic masterpiece, just because it is one of the most "advanced" in its harmonic language.


Well I don't see it as snobbish. I mean would you consider for example someone saying Beethoven's Sym.#9 'Choral' is his symphonic masterpiece a snobbish statement? Or any of his late period works, the late piano sonatas or string quartets?

But the thing is, Debussy was also doing more traditional things late in his career. Eg. his series of late sonatas - violin, cello, flute - speak to the neo-classical style that was to emerge more fully after his death. So like many composers, he was doing many things at about the same time. I like that aspect of stylistic flexibility, I really do.

& btw, this year will be the 150th anniversary of Claude's birth, on 22 August 1862.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

But to add, Xavier, looks like you are not alone. I did a poll on the three ballets that the 'Ballets Russes' commissioned around the same time - 'Jeux,' 'Rite of Spring' and 'Daphnis et Chloe.'

According to the poll, only yours truly (or me!) voted for 'Jeux.' So there you go.

http://www.talkclassical.com/14454-ravel-debussy-stravinsky-ballets.html


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Xavier said:


> Wait what? Where did you get that idea??
> 
> *Well, you would like Jeux much more if it were more like L'apres midi, No?
> *
> ...


*Something we agree upon, then *


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

some guy said:


> Sign me up for liking _Jeux_ best.


I'll join the club too, if you'll have me. Not my favorite piece by Debussy overall, but certainly my favorite orchestral piece by him.

_Jeux_ has always been a bit of a fetish object among modernists. Boulez, Stockhausen, and the rest have each gone out of their way to praise this piece.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Eschbeg said:


> [...]
> _Jeux_ has always been a bit of a fetish object among modernists. Boulez, Stockhausen, and the rest have each gone out of their way to praise this piece.


Eeyow! If I didn't already know the work, that would keep me away.


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## Guest (Oct 27, 2012)

Well, I've had this on 'repeat' in the car for a couple of days now...and I still don't get it.


(Yes, I was in the car at the same time, though not for two days continuously!)


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## Aecio (Jul 27, 2012)

Jeux is not a bad piece but I feel it is less interesting than, for exemple, the chamber music pieces Debussy composed 2 or 3 years later


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

My favorite orchestral piece by Debussy along with the orchestral version of _Le Martyre de saint Sébastien_.

Jeux is a distilled, French version of Act II of Parsifal with an undercurrent of the violent poly-rhythmic throbbing of Tristan's Delirium. The diaphanous, vulgar-climax averse, chamber transparency-like orchestration cannot help but evoke Parsifal. All that's missing is any evocation of Parsifal the character; there is no pure foolishness or naivety here. Neither is Isolde here; no anguish, bitterness, malice and fury, only the cool villainy of a masterful seductress.

*Jeux:* _Tristan und Kundry. _


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

MacLeod said:


> Well, I've had this on 'repeat' in the car for a couple of days now...and I still don't get it.
> 
> (Yes, I was in the car at the same time, though not for two days continuously!)


I commend your perseverance. But maybe it's just not your thing? Oh well, you know.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

I find Jeux interesting, specially into terms of formal, rhythmical and motivic structure.

However, as a listener there are some elements in its character which I (personally) dislike:


the overt-in-your-face (you really think that's subtle??) and constant teasing drama for the sake of itself (yes there is teasing in a lot of music but it's either also pleasing or goes to somewhere else)

 the sectional nature of it which seems to contradict the organic development of the themes*,

 the clashes between the sections for which I find no reason to be,

the string writting seems either too thin or too dense in various places (it already happens in his orchestral 'Images' and doesn't happen in any of the scores of Ravel or Stravinsky)

So I do best with it by following the suggestion of ' listening to the instant'.

I don't have any problems of the kind with Debussy's etudes or the late sonatas or Boulez' or Stockhausen's chamber and orchestral works which to me sound much more consistent.


* (which by the way Sibelius was doing just a year before in his 4th Symphony and deserves the corresponding credit)


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

For the longest time I felt the same as the OP, and I really like Debussy. The Deneve recording changed my mind, although I still rate behind his other well known works. Sine the music was written as a ballet, I wonder if some of the issues regarding Orchestral textures stem from the fact that it may have been conceived for a smaller Orchestra in a more intimate space


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I hate Jeux and most other Debussy.

The only Debussy I can tolerate is: L'isle Joyeuse.


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

I wouldn't say I hate it. I enjoy _La Mer_ rather more, but it does have its merits, not the least of which is the vivid orchestration.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

I enjoy any Debussy piece and Jeux is a tour de force to me.

It foreshadows a lot of colorful experimental techniques within the 20th century. Note coloration to Berg's Violin Concerto in some ways.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

It's ballet music! Why would anyone think to compare a ballet score with his other orchestral works? These are two distinct categories with different criteria and standards for success. Good ballet music is not always good concert music. Jeux is an excellent case in point.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2015)

By the way, am I the only one that noticed the potential for dangerous typos in this thread?


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

nathanb said:


> By the way, am I the only one that noticed the potential for dangerous typos in this thread?


Or dangerous mispronunciations.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

OP: Since I hate it too, be comforted that it's not just Jeux and Jeux alone!


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## pentaquine (Mar 4, 2015)

Whenever I hate a piece, I put it aside and come back year later.


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## TradeMark (Mar 12, 2015)

I love Jeux its one of Debussy's best orchestral pieces.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> I find Jeux interesting, specially into terms of formal, rhythmical and motivic structure.
> 
> However, as a listener there are some elements in its character which I (personally) dislike:
> 
> ...


...and that Debussy imitating Stravisnky (mostly Firebird) just feels wrong.


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2015)

OK.

But you don't have to listen to it, at all, if you don't want.

And Debussy is dead, has been for some time, now, so unless you think you can reorchestrate it to "fix" the string writing (and if you can get conductors to sign on to the changes), then there's really nothing to be done about it.

Others have already mentioned that it's a ballet.

Anyway, you'll be delighted to hear that I listened to this again just now, because I could, and aside from a very brief moment that sounded similar to some other moments in _Firebird,_ nothing that you just said (or quoted yourself as having said) matched anything that I just heard.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

I'm sort of sorry, got a bit implusive again. I do have to listen to it though, I can't help notice things (what my ear-brain considers inconsistencies) I wish I wouldn't. I should really take it for what it is. I know the original choreography was bizarre and Debussy hated it, don't know how they stage it today. I have to listen to a lot of Messiaen and Xenakis and their heirs of which in both instances, in particular cases, I even doubt about their work's level of musicality (yep, that's how conservative I get sometimes) I try to get the best of things but also take notice of the worst. Sometimes the best and the worst (in my subjective taste of course) in a piece are very intense, so I got love-hate relationships with a few works.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Had never heard of 'Jeux'!

 Just listened to it. 

 Liked it! 

Haven't a clue what place it should hold among Debussy's other works, sadly, because... yep, you guessed it!


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## spradlig (Jul 25, 2012)

To answer OP's questions:

Yes, I honestly love the piece.

No, I'm sure there are others out there who also hate _Jeux_, including some in this forum.

I'm not an expert on music theory. I just like the way it sounds. I don't know enough to compare it to his other works, or proclaim that it's the best for this or that reason.

Different strokes for different folks.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

This is music you relish the sound of. You don't look for structure; it's episodic, one fascinating, sensuous, evocative thing after another. A bit like _Daphnis and Chloe_, but richer in sonic ideas. Not usually my sort of thing - I like structure - but how can you not be seduced? Seduced...

One poster awhile back was reminded of _Parsifal_. Well, Debussy loved the subtle, luminous sounds of _Parsifal_, and, listening to _Jeux_ again right now, I hear reminiscences all over the place - harmonically, motivically, orchestrally. Listen to the scene where the flower maidens dance seductively around Parsifal and you'll think that Wagner was the real beginning of impressionism, and realize that Debussy's revolutionary floating harmony had roots after all.

I'm happy to have heard this again. I'm with those who give it high marks among Debussy's orchestral works.


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2015)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> I'm sort of sorry, got a bit implusive again. I do have to listen to it though, I can't help notice things (what my ear-brain considers inconsistencies) I wish I wouldn't. I should really take it for what it is. I know the original choreography was bizarre and Debussy hated it, don't know how they stage it today. I have to listen to a lot of Messiaen and Xenakis and their heirs of which in both instances, in particular cases, I even doubt about their work's level of musicality (yep, that's how conservative I get sometimes) I try to get the best of things but also take notice of the worst. Sometimes the best and the worst (in my subjective taste of course) in a piece are very intense, so I got love-hate relationships with a few works.


No worries.

It did seem to me, though, that you were trying to force the piece into being something that it's not. It's not the piece you want it, for whatever reason, to be. It's what it is. And my guess--it's only a guess--is that you are not so much noticing things in the the piece/about the piece so much as you are making things up for the piece to do as it's going. When it doesn't do those things, you're disappointed. This could hamper your enjoyment of many other pieces as well. Or it could be that you are just a creative artist yourself and should really be wriing your own pieces.

Either way, no one person can like everything. Even I don't like everything.

It might be simply that _Jeux_ doesn't do it for you. Which is fine.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

As far as I know , Debussy never wrote a work called "La Mere " (the mother ) . LOL !
Jeux certainly is a most interesting work , one which might be baffling to some listeners on first hearing
but which makes a lot more sense on repeated hearings . 
Jeux certainly conjures up the sultry atmosphere of a Summer night with a young man playing tennis with two lovely young ladies , and the sexual tension between them , the flirting etc .


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Xavier said:


> Now I have very wide tastes and adore a good deal of modernist music...


Yes, yes, go on...



Xavier said:


> ...but I truly loathe it and this is aside from the fact that I find it contrived, austere, rigorously formed and hard-edged.


You mean "modern" in its conception, using those qualities that modernists hold dear: austere, rigorous, hard-edge, etc....



Xavier said:


> It is not at all comparable (in my opinion) to the sensuality and inspiration of _Prelude To The Afternoon of A Faun, Pelleas et Melisande_ and _La Mer_.


Ahh, yes, sensuality, inspiration, all those things that the Romantics admire.



Xavier said:


> I also think it is a snobbish statement to say that _Jeux_ is his symphonic masterpiece, just because it is one of the most "advanced" in its harmonic language.


If we said that, we'd be modernist snobs, wouldn't we? And the very IDEA of "advancement" in harmonic language makes me think of Schoenberg!



Xavier said:


> Does anybody here honestly love this piece?


Yeppir, I like it. And I have revealed your anti-modernist agenda!


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Eschbeg said:


> _Jeux_ has always been a bit of a fetish object among modernists. Boulez, Stockhausen, and the rest have each gone out of their way to praise this piece.


Aha! Jeux is an "icon of modernism," so there's the agenda! Tear it down, like the radicals tore down the religious icons!


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

some guy said:


> OK.
> 
> But you don't have to listen to it, at all, if you don't want.
> 
> ...


Some guy, but _*people's agendas *_are what makes this forum exist at all! This thread here exists because the OP hates the piece, because it_ represents _the modernist ideology.

Sure, we know that opinions do not exist "in" the music itself, and that opinions are separate, and have nothing to do with the 'music itself,' whatever that means; I suppose that's up to God and the music, or the music's "mother;" all mothers love their children.

But if the piece _represents_ the modernist ideology to a large group of people, then it might as well* be *what he thinks it is.

If you don't see it that way, that doesn't separate the association from the music:_ that opinion has now become a part of the music's DNA, for all intents and purposes, because the music exists in a human context of opposing ideologies and opinions.

_The music now has a* "reputation," *like a person, and can no longer be defined just by "what it is" as music, but its effect on people. Its identity is now defined from without; it is what we say it is.

The music is now defined by its "actions" or its effect on people, not just by what it was before it entered the realm of human consumption.

And if we all agree on something, that doesn't necessarily make it a "conspiracy."

There are consequences for music's actions and effects on people. And the consequence of Juex is that it is an icon of modernist ideology. All those who agree, if their number is greater, will win, and your "free association of endless possibilities" will be meaningless.

Get this through your head.


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## drpraetorus (Aug 9, 2012)

Why would Jeux hate me?

I find it amusing that people get morally outraged if someone states a dislike of one of their favorites. 

In general, Debussy sucks.


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## Guest (Aug 13, 2015)

drpraetorus said:


> I find it amusing that people get morally outraged if someone states a dislike of one of their favorites.


Then you crack yourself up. Because "people" don't get morally outraged if someone states a dislike of one of their favorites. People get irritated if someone makes a blanket assertion without any support.



drpraetorus said:


> In general, Debussy sucks.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I really like _Jeux_. I agree Debussy doesn't quite match Ravel or Stravinsky in orchestration, but he surpasses them in other areas - harmonic innovation for example. This work is quite impressive and seems to transport the listener between different worlds in a unique way.


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

I love it and I might love the piano version even more


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