# Understanding and Evaluating Music



## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

It is a mystery to me that TC members enjoy rehashing the same composers in endless lists, games, best of, 3 best composers of all times and all that kind of stuff. 
The thing our members fail to talk about is the quality of the music, the best works of the composers and the reasons why some works are better. 
Most members also are of the opinion that there is no classical music after Mahler.
In fact TC is composed of a bunch of ignorants.
I admit some people are quite competent in certain fields like string quartets for example.
It is about time that the owners of TC realise that this kind of management will only diminish their audience.
They should find specialists in the different musical eras (up to 2022) who would be able to engage with TC members.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Ouch! I hope I'm not an "ignorant". I, for one, rarely participate in those endless lists and games. Maybe TC is too big to accomplish what you want. There really aren't that many people participating it seems, and hardly anything ever is new. As far as discussing the quality goes, and what makes a work great, that's a tough topic; it's one that professional music critics and musicologists can't really answer. I wish there was much more discussion of new recordings: what you liked, what wasn't so great.


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

Is it ignorant to listen to the music I enjoy? You might want to cool down. Imagine getting upset because other people don’t listen to the same music as you do. Thought by now you would be immune to that considering you listen to classical music and the majority the of the world doesn’t


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

justekaia said:


> It is a mystery to me that TC members enjoy rehashing the same composers in endless lists, games, best of, 3 best composers of all times and all that kind of stuff.
> The thing our members fail to talk about is the quality of the music, the best works of the composers and the reasons why some works are better.
> Most members also are of the opinion that there is no classical music after Mahler.
> In fact TC is composed of a bunch of ignorants.
> ...


ROFLMAO . . . "Most members are of the opinion that . . . "

That may be the most unsupported overgeneralization I've heard all week.


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## Nawdry (Dec 27, 2020)

justekaia said:


> It is a mystery to me that TC members enjoy rehashing the same composers in endless lists, games, best of, 3 best composers of all times and all that kind of stuff.
> The thing our members fail to talk about is the quality of the music, the best works of the composers and the reasons why some works are better.
> Most members also are of the opinion that there is no classical music after Mahler.
> In fact TC is composed of a bunch of ignorants.
> ...


I agree there's a lot of what is, in my view, silly bickering, ranking of composers and works, etc. But there's also a lot of quite valuable discussion. There are plenty of quite knowledgeable members that can be, and have been for me, helpful in clarifying various issues. This is a public list, so it's going to attract a broad range of participants, people that want to play games or mind-games, as well as those that want to learn, teach, expand their knowledge and understanding of classical music and even music generally. 

If you want to stimulate some discussion of "the quality of the music, the best works of the composers and the reasons why some works are better.", I'd recommend formulating each issue concisely and posting the topic for general discussion, perhaps even as questions. This approach has worked for me.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

I see that the opportunity to engage with the OP has now passed.


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## bagpipers (Jun 29, 2013)

I suppose I'm ignorant ,I can't keep up with anyone on this forum on knowledge of listening or recordings or anything like that.I honestly have no idea where people here find the time to listen so much.


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## verandai (Dec 10, 2021)

Maybe also a kind of dissapointment is speaking out of the OP, because this really great thread didn't receive the feedback that it deserved:









10 Living Composers talk to TC


10 Living Composers talk to TC I guess this is a first on TC. During the last 12 months I have corresponded intensively with some of my favorite contemporary composers and selected 10 to initiate a thread that involves them. So first of all, I would like to thank the composers who were so kind...




www.talkclassical.com





In that case, I have to admit that I've listened to several of the pieces (also liked some of them), but I'm too new to this musical field to give a qualified response quickly (need more time for that). Maybe I'm not the only one here...


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

verandai said:


> *Maybe also a kind of dissapointment is speaking out of the OP, because this really great thread didn't receive the feedback that it deserved:*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree with this. That thread in particular was quite the innovation and given the OP's contacts, more of the same would have been quite a few feathers in the cap for TC.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

justekaia said:


> In fact TC is composed of a bunch of ignorants.


It might be more accurate and less confrontational to say that there is ignorance here. Of course, there is: learning starts from a position of ignorance. This is not a forum of experts.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

justekaia said:


> It is a mystery to me that TC members enjoy rehashing the same composers in endless lists, games, best of, 3 best composers of all times and all that kind of stuff.
> The thing our members fail to talk about is the quality of the music, the best works of the composers and the reasons why some works are better.
> *Most members also are of the opinion that there is no classical music after Mahler.*
> In fact TC is composed of a bunch of ignorants.
> ...


What is your basis for this statement? Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Bartok, Ravel, Vaughan-Williams, Strauss, Rachmaninoff, Weinberg, Schnittke, and Myaskovsky, to name just a few, all lived for decades after Mahler and all are widely praised and discussed on TC.

Did I miss something? I didn't notice you describing any management decisions taken by "TC owners." To what are you referring?

Most of us find and cite our own specialists when discussing our favorite music. I've learned of many valuable sources from reading others' citations.

All the games and polls don't much interest me either and I certainly prefer exploring the music itself — but publicly open groups tend to be diverse and I don't expect everyone's interests to align with mine.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

not everybody here has the same background. There are trained musicians, music fans, audiophiles and even beginners - be they players or listeners. So not everybody has the same toolbox to go to work with. 

I play, so I have the perspective of a musician and ensemble player. There are people here who never played a note, but they know which conductors have made the best recordings of particular works. That is a completely different perspective than mine. 

so sometimes we have to meet in the middle and talk about our 10 favorite Mozart works

we're just trying to make conversation, really


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

As long as I can tell there is not an official agenda implemented by the owners, a great goal towards which the community should evolve. This is a place for all kinds of people to discuss classical music and if they do it within the rules, they should feel welcome and not obliged to follow some greater story.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

justekaia said:


> It is a mystery to me that TC members enjoy rehashing the same composers in endless lists, games, best of, 3 best composers of all times and all that kind of stuff.
> The thing our members fail to talk about is the quality of the music, the best works of the composers and the reasons why some works are better.
> Most members also are of the opinion that there is no classical music after Mahler.
> In fact TC is composed of a bunch of ignorants.
> ...


Totally agree with every word. Shut the forum down.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

There is a time for comment, and a time for listening to music.
I'm listening to music.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

verandai said:


> Maybe also a kind of dissapointment is speaking out of the OP, because this really great thread didn't receive the feedback that it deserved:


You're probably right. I saw that thread with its lengthy descriptions and numerous YouTube videos, and the sheer volume was so overwhelming and required such a commitment of time, I put it on the back burner and, it turns, out, I never got around to it. It was like standing in a batting cage where the balls come so fast and so often, you put down your bat and stop even trying to swing.

But I noticed there were several thoughtful and even enthusiastic responses to the videos from TC members. I don't know where the "bunch of ignorants" comment came from.


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

justekaia said:


> It is a mystery to me that TC members enjoy rehashing the same composers in endless lists, games, best of, 3 best composers of all times and all that kind of stuff.


To my mind, these games are only fun. No substance behind.

Why should Bruckner 4 be better than Bruckner 5 or vice versa? Does anybody think that there is some evidence which clearly proves one of the two assumptions?

I think it is all about individual resonance. Maybe Bruckner 4 touches you more than Bruckner 5, for reasons that you even don't know exactly. Then we say "B4 is better than B5". I think, in these cases we have to translate "B4 is better then B5" -> "B4 induces more positive feedback in my mind than B5".



justekaia said:


> The thing our members fail to talk about is the quality of the music, the best works of the composers and the reasons why some works are better.


Well, as pointed out above ... they are ot really better. They just make us feel better, but next poster might feel that B5 is better than B4 and both are right in some way ... and both wrong if understood literally.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Forster said:


> I see that the opportunity to engage with the OP has now passed.


Oh my.

"Banned". 

This is the last activity listed on her profile. I'll assume that she was banned for some subsequent comment or post (that has since been removed), as this particular OP (made 24 hours ago) isn't really all that ban-worthy. Her last appearance here was 9 hours ago.

Hmm. Sorry I missed whatever drama she caused. Drama's fun.


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

justekaia said:


> It is a mystery to me that TC members enjoy rehashing the same composers in endless lists, games, best of, 3 best composers of all times and all that kind of stuff.


It is the same in every genre. Nothing unique taking place here at TC.
The reasons for this are not hard to understand nor mysterious although I have little desire to offer he psychology of it here and now. 



justekaia said:


> In fact TC is composed of a bunch of ignorants.


I'd suggest this is like several of the comments I have read from you, over opinionated. 
I marvel at the knowledge here and general educational level. 
What I find curious is that people who love music source platforms such as YouTube and don't invest in better audio quality for home reproduction.


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## Brandon K (3 mo ago)

Philidor said:


> To my mind, these games are only fun. No substance behind.
> 
> Why should x be better than y or vice versa? Does anybody think that there is some evidence which clearly proves one of the two assumptions?
> 
> ...


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Fwiw, there were a few polls done here about favorite musical eras, and it seems a vast majority favor the contemporary/modern era above all. It's just the romantic composers making lists because of their output and select masterpieces, but the era has less overall quality or quantity. I also just tend to see a lot of threads on '"fame" composers like Beethoven and Tchaikovsky but these names don't even represent what most people here listen to. Appears to just be the trigger phrase for making threads.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I agree about the the endless lists and games. The site already has "official" lists of hundreds of recommended works. But if these threads give some new listeners ideas for works to explore then I guess it's serving some purpose.


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## SearsPoncho (Sep 23, 2020)

justekaia said:


> It is a mystery to me that TC members enjoy rehashing the same composers in endless lists, games, best of, 3 best composers of all times and all that kind of stuff.
> The thing our members fail to talk about is the quality of the music, the best works of the composers and the reasons why some works are better.
> Most members also are of the opinion that there is no classical music after Mahler.
> In fact TC is composed of a bunch of ignorants.
> ...


"In fact TC is composed of a bunch of ignorants."

Really? You're here, which means you are either ignorant or are the one beacon of light who does not belong here and should leave immediately. I suggest you do so, post-haste.

EDIT: Oh, you're banned. Yay!!!!!


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

starthrower said:


> I agree about the the endless lists and games. The site already has "official" lists of hundreds of recommended works. But if these threads give some new listeners ideas for works to explore then I guess it's serving some purpose.


Most of the participants in TC games are seasoned listeners.


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

SearsPoncho said:


> "In fact TC is composed of a bunch of ignorants."
> 
> Really? You're here, which means you are either ignorant or are the one beacon of light who does not belong here and should leave immediately. I suggest you do so, post-haste.
> 
> EDIT: Oh, you're banned. Yay!!!!!


I think some of the harshness comes from English not being Juste's first language.


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

delete


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

eljr said:


> I think some of the harshness comes from English not being Juste's first language.


Perhaps.

But the thread title (*"Understanding and Evaluating Music"*) really had very little to do with her intent of her OP.

In that *OP* she
1. Belittled the games threads
2. Criticized the membership for failing to _"talk about . . . the quality of the music"_ and comparison of works.
3. Make a blanket statement that the membership thinks "_there is no classical music after *Mahler*_".
4. Attempts to either butter us up, or to backtrack, by admitting some folks here _do_ have some specialized knowledge of narrow musical genres.
5. Gives a non-specific insult about how the site is managed, and how that management will drive the audience away.
6. Admonishes the management to find "_experts_" that actually know about musical "_eras_", inferring that people here DON'T know what we're talking about.

While there are occasionally people that spout some stuff about music that might be suspect, they're generally engaged by members that actually DO have expertise in a particular subject or field of study.

Yet, this post remains, and could have certainly been grounds for suspension. One can only imagine how vile the actual comment was that led to an outright ban.


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

pianozach said:


> Perhaps.
> 
> But the thread title (*"Understanding and Evaluating Music"*) really had very little to do with her intent of her OP.
> 
> ...


Points taken. Still, I like her direction, confidence and assertiveness. I'd like to hear more from her.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

eljr said:


> I'd like to hear more from her.


You know "she" is a "her", do you?


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## Montarsolo (5 mo ago)

I hope the OP wasn't banned for the first post in this thread. It is oversimplified but can be a good cause for discussion.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Bulldog said:


> Most of the participants in TC games are seasoned listeners.


But, apparently, not _seasoned_ enough to attempt <How many of these excerpts are music by Mozart?>


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Montarsolo said:


> *I hope the OP wasn't banned for the first post in this thread. It is oversimplified but can be a good cause for discussion*.


It was the now deleted post in "10 Living Composers talk to TC" -

And it was the result of pretty much everything which followed the opening statement - "I am ending my participation in this thread..."

I was there at the time - I read the post - and I would be willing to swear to the authenticity and the veracity of the statements that I have just made.


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

Forster said:


> You know "she" is a "her", do you?


Well, given the anonymous nature of the internet no one knows for sure however the account was most certainly set up to impersonate a specific female composer.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

eljr said:


> Yes


OK...and your evidence for this can be found...where?


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

Forster said:


> OK...and your evidence for this can be found...where?


Please see my edited post, I was editing before you posted your response.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

eljr said:


> Well, given the anonymous nature of the internet no one knows for sure however the account was most certainly set up to impersonate a specific female composer.


And you've checked for a female composer called Justekaia? Or that matches the picture?


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

Forster said:


> And you've checked for a female composer called Justekaia? Or that matches the picture?


This is who the poster is veiled as or is.



https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just%C4%97_Janulyt%C4%97#Weblinks








JustÄ— JanulytÄ— - About







www.justejanulyte.com






__
https://soundcloud.com/juste-janulyte

In any event, substantively, the posts are very knowledgeable and informative. I enjoy them. Harsh or not.


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## Artran (Sep 16, 2016)

Why was Justekaia banned!? They post the most interesting posts regarding contemporary music.


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

Artran said:


> Why was Justekaia banned!? They post the most interesting posts regarding contemporary music.


Well, you don't get banned for posting interesting threads... so something most of us do not know of must have occurred.

My hope is that she returns shortly.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

eljr said:


> Points taken. Still, I like her direction, confidence and assertiveness. I'd like to hear more from her.


I wouldn't. I don't share her obsession with contemporary music. To be frank, she's full of herself, highly insulting, rigid, and immature.


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## Artran (Sep 16, 2016)

eljr said:


> Well, you don't get banned for posting interesting threads... so something most of us do not know of must have occurred.
> 
> My hope is that she returns shortly.


I'm aware of that but I hope it wasn't because of the first post of this thread. I followed them briefly but they were highly ardent regarding contemporary music and they provided unusually interesting information. It would be stupid to lose them because someone's hurt feelings.


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

Bulldog said:


> she's full of herself, highly insulting, rigid, and immature.


otherwise stated, possibly? 
Educated, opinionated, self confident and intolerant.

I always find perceptive interesting. Look how mine and your differ.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

The moderation team does not disclose information about our actions toward members. We view that as a private matter between the member and ourselves. 

Please refrain from negative comments about other members.

Finally, there is a new rule since we moved to the new platform:



> Users shall not question or debate a moderator decision publicly on the message board. In the event of a disagreement or questioning of a moderator's decision or action, users should contact the moderator(s) or admin(s) via private *conversation* (message).


Thanks.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

There are organisations which bring together professionals working in music (e.g. ISCM covers areas of contemporary composition). TC isn't meant to be like this, its open to everyone. In terms of the low entry rate, a member can do anything from just browsing the website to participating in the discussions.

I think that ultimately the best anyone can do here is take part in discussion of topics which interest them and therefore might interest others. I think its good to try and initiate discussions which can add value to this forum.

I can understand some of justekaia's point of view. I think she's coming from a position of wanting TC to be in some ways more than just a place to chat. It's admirable but at the same time, bound to lead to frustration. If you try to do something like that you're working against inbuilt limitations. This is basically just a chat site.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

Sid James said:


> There are organisations which bring together professionals working in music (e.g. ISCM covers areas of contemporary composition). TC isn't meant to be like this, its open to everyone. In terms of the low entry rate, a member can do anything from just browsing the website to participating in the discussions.
> 
> I think that ultimately the best anyone can do here is take part in discussion of topics which interest them and therefore might interest others. I think its good to try and initiate discussions which can add value to this forum.
> 
> I can understand some of justekaia's point of view. I think she's coming from a position of wanting TC to be in some ways more than just a place to chat. It's admirable but at the same time, bound to lead to frustration. If you try to do something like that you're working against inbuilt limitations. This is basically just a chat site.


Wow. I can't even find out about an interesting new member until after she is banned. Of course I have no idea what the issue was, but it's almost axiomatic that you can't expect most people to be thoroughly familiar with all of the latest contemporary music. Of her list of contemporary composers, I was familiar with only one, Christopher Cerrone. 

I've said here before that self-confidence bordering on or crossing into arrogance can be a useful quality for a creative artist who is seeking to forge new paths. Mozart and Beethoven had it. And I've made a few comments similar to hers here, though I hope far less rudely and without dismissing a large, diverse group of people, many of whom know more than I about many musical subjects, as "ignorants". But she seemed to have demanded that the owners of this cite cede control of it to her and other "experts" (chosen by her?) so that members can be properly educated according to her or their aesthetic values, whatever those may be. I can see how the owners of this site would not be thrilled by that attitude.


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## verandai (Dec 10, 2021)

Shaughnessy said:


> It was the now deleted post in "10 Living Composers talk to TC" -
> 
> And it was the result of pretty much everything which followed the opening statement - "I am ending my participation in this thread..."
> 
> I was there at the time - I read the post - and I would be willing to swear to the authenticity and the veracity of the statements that I have just made.


Which statements did you previously make where? Were they deleted afterwards?

And what kind of content did you read? Maybe you can just sum up the facts and remove its sharpness, so that nobody gets offended...


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

And her teacher was TC member marc bollansee. Anyone know anything about him?


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

verandai said:


> *Which statements did you previously make where? Were they deleted afterwards?
> 
> And what kind of content did you read? Maybe you can just sum up the facts and remove its sharpness, so that nobody gets offended...*


You're misreading my post - # 32 - which was a direct answer to the question posed in Post # 30 which inquired whether it was the first post in this thread which was responsible for the OP being banned.

There was a post - now deleted - written by Justekaia in the "10 Living Composers talk to TC" thread which had, as its opening statement, the following - *"*I am ending my participation in this thread". It then went on to list the reasons why this decision was being made. I cannot comment any further on the actual content or even the general nature of the statements made within that post without placing myself at risk of being banned for violating what essentially amounts to the forum's confidentiality laws.

A statement was made by Justekaia - "I am ending my participation in this thread"

The reasons for making this decision then followed.

The post was consequently deleted by a moderator.

The thread that we are upon now was written right after the "I am ending my participation in this thread" post in the "10 Living Composers talk to TC" thread.

At some point, the consequences of the content written following the statement "I am ending my participation in this thread" lead to the OP's current status.

I was on the thread at the time - I read the post that she wrote - I can print the first sentence of the post and then I have to stop because the forum rules prevent me from revealing any further information about what was said and who it was directed towards.

An administrator has made an appearance on this thread warning us against making negative statements against any member. Nothing that I have written in this post can be described as a negative statement that I personally have made. However, there is no injunction against bringing to light statements that a particular member may have made within a thread they created as this information is readily available.

This situation is not without precedent - Allow me to draw your attention to the following statement made by the OP in a thread entitled "Favourite solo contemporary piano pieces after 1970" in post # 181 -



justekaia said:


> i consider that our members do not understand what kind of genius tomas marco is ; the same is probably true for all the previous posts i made so i consider i have given my all to this thread and call it a day from my side; the parasites who will pollute this thread are not my concern


Here's the link to the actual thread which runs for 12 pages with 233 comments, the last of which was written by the OP -









Favourite solo contemporary piano pieces after 1970


The idea is to identify outstanding piano pieces written by contemporary composers after 1970. From my side I have selected 100 composers and will unveil 1 piece per composer over a period of one month. Due to the short length of some pieces I think it is reasonable to post a maximum of 4...




www.talkclassical.com







justekaia said:


> i consider this thread to be moderately successful, but do miss input, contribution, comments from our members and have therefore decided to end my personal contibrution to the thread I initiated


I have not commented on the decisions made by the moderators.

I have not personally made any negative comments about the member in question.

I provided a narration of the circumstances without providing commentary of any kind.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Bulldog said:


> Most of the participants in TC games are seasoned listeners.


That goes without saying. A newbie unfamiliar with the repertoire may be lurking to learn the names of composers and their works. That was the obvious point of my post. Others not interested in the games don't bother with these threads.


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## 4chamberedklavier (12 mo ago)

hammeredklavier said:


> But, apparently, not _seasoned_ enough to attempt <How many of these excerpts are music by Mozart?>


Don't you think it's unreasonable to expect people to have memorized these kinds of things? I wouldn't expect even Mozart fans to remember snippets of his vast catalogue of music.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

4chamberedklavier said:


> Don't you think it's unreasonable


You can just tell by the style.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

eljr said:


>


@Luchesi, who's right in this situation? The guy on the left is bald; seems _older_ and more _experienced_.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

fluteman said:


> Wow. I can't even find out about an interesting new member until after she is banned. Of course I have no idea what the issue was, but it's almost axiomatic that you can't expect most people to be thoroughly familiar with all of the latest contemporary music. Of her list of contemporary composers, I was familiar with only one, Christopher Cerrone.
> 
> I've said here before that self-confidence bordering on or crossing into arrogance can be a useful quality for a creative artist who is seeking to forge new paths. Mozart and Beethoven had it. And I've made a few comments similar to hers here, though I hope far less rudely and without dismissing a large, diverse group of people, many of whom know more than I about many musical subjects, as "ignorants". But she seemed to have demanded that the owners of this cite cede control of it to her and other "experts" (chosen by her?) so that members can be properly educated according to her or their aesthetic values, whatever those may be. I can see how the owners of this site would not be thrilled by that attitude.


I have to be careful using the word "ignorant" these days. Recently, it's taken as insulting, but the roots of the word hint at its history.

ORIGIN late Middle English: via Old French from Latin ignorant- ‘not knowing’


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

hammeredklavier said:


> @Luchesi, who's right in this situation? The guy on the left is bald; seems _older_ and more _experienced_.


The shorter guy on the right is probably thin-skinned because of his stature, so I would say that the boldly-bald man has a better perspective on life.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

fluteman said:


> Wow. I can't even find out about an interesting new member until after she is banned.


As has been noted above, this might only be a temporary ban. Time will tell, but its best not to discuss this.



> I've made a few comments similar to hers here, though I hope far less rudely and without dismissing a large, diverse group of people, many of whom know more than I about many musical subjects, as "ignorants".


Same here, been there, done that. You know the saying, let him cast the first stone...

Anyone who has been here long enough, and cares about the site to some extent, is likely to get to a point where he or she feels a need to let off a bit of steam. This case might be nothing much more than that.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Sid James said:


> Anyone who has been here long enough, and cares about the site to some extent, is likely to get to a point where he or she feels a need to let off a bit of steam. This case might be nothing much more than that.


But the member was here only a short time.


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## verandai (Dec 10, 2021)

Shaughnessy said:


> You're misreading my post - # 32 - which was a direct answer to the question posed in Post # 30 which inquired whether it was the first post in this thread which was responsible for the OP being banned.
> 
> There was a post - now deleted - written by Justekaia in the "10 Living Composers talk to TC" thread which had, as its opening statement, the following - *"*I am ending my participation in this thread". It then went on to list the reasons why this decision was being made. I cannot comment any further on the actual content or even the general nature of the statements made within that post without placing myself at risk of being banned for violating what essentially amounts to the forum's confidentiality laws.
> 
> ...


Thanks Shaughnessy, your information was helpful for me to shed some light on the situation, without compromising anyone.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Here's an interview (English language with French subtitles) with composer Justė Janulytė - a bright, if not brilliant, obviously well-educated well-spoken woman - Notice the lightly accented but flawless use of the English language with literal statements of fact being complemented with figurative uses of speech - Now compare the persona witnessed within the video with the persona displayed within the forum - They are not one and the same - They are not anywhere near being close in even the wildest of imaginations - Justekaia is not Justė Janulytė.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Shaughnessy said:


> Here's an interview (English language with French subtitles) with composer Justė Janulytė - a bright, if not brilliant, obviously well-educated well-spoken woman - Notice the lightly accented but *flawless use of the English language* with literal statements of fact being complemented with figurative uses of speech - Now compare the persona witnessed within the video with the persona displayed within the forum - They are not one and the same - They are not anywhere near being close in even the wildest of imaginations - Justekaia is not Justė Janulytė.


maybe she prepared it (even practiced it by memorizing things) beforehand.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Bulldog said:


> But the member was here only a short time.


I think that six to twelve months of active participation is long enough, although it can vary depending on things like the content of the person's posts.


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

verandai said:


> Thanks Shaughnessy, your information was helpful for me to shed some light on the situation, without compromising anyone.


The historical, innovative Thread "10 Living composers talk to tc" was downloaded during one night, facing many bugs and technical problems. It was completed on October 7 in approximately 10 hours. An additional post on October 15 concerning Kory Reeder completed the thread as the Mastermind considered there were not enough free Pieces from Kory available. Game over.


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

EvaBaron said:


> Is it ignorant to listen to the music I enjoy? You might want to cool down. Imagine getting upset because other people don’t listen to the same music as you do. Thought by now you would be immune to that considering you listen to classical music and the majority the of the world doesn’t


I have listened and still listen to the music you enjoy and encourage you to treasure this music for the rest of your lifetime. On the other hand i also encourage you to be open to contemporary music. At the age of 4 i listened to Italian Opera, at the age of 8 i listened to French contemporary music (Messiaen, Xenakis, Varese, Henry) , then between 12 and 16 i switched to more classical fare (Beethoven, Mozart, Dvorak etc..), of course i kept a link with my contemporary favourites and added some ; the story is ongoing and leads to composers like G.F. Hahn, Zubuokle Martinaityte, Chris Cerrone, Hector Parra, Lei Liang who are some of today's masters. I would be sorry for you if you did not listen to them.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Theopening post more correctly belongs in he post titled "Pretentiousness in the classical community." It proves the point of the discussion.


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## HansZimmer (11 mo ago)

justekaia said:


> I have listened and still listen to the music you enjoy and encourage you to treasure this music for the rest of your lifetime. On the other hand i also encourage you to be open to contemporary music. At the age of 4 i listened to Italian Opera, at the age of 8 i listened to French contemporary music (Messiaen, Xenakis, Varese, Henry) , then between 12 and 16 i switched to more classical fare (Beethoven, Mozart, Dvorak etc..), of course i kept a link with my contemporary favourites and added some ; the story is ongoing and leads to composers like G.F. Hahn, Zubuokle Martinaityte, Chris Cerrone, Hector Parra, Lei Liang who are some of today's masters. I would be sorry for you if you did not listen to them.


Some persons (including me) like tonal, melodic music. This is why they are not so open to a great part of contemporary classical music.

Keep in mind that many of us still have to explore a lot of the old, tonal music, so we have still a lot of pieces to discover in the kind of music that we enjoy.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Trust me to arrive too late for the party. Can someone please flounce out of the forum soon? I'm really missing someone 'taking their bat and ball home' and we've not had a really good flounce for years, on here. I used to love moderating a rock forum where we had some of the best flounces I've ever read.


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

HansZimmer said:


> Some persons (including me) like tonal, melodic music. This is why they are not so open to a great part of contemporary classical music.
> 
> Keep in mind that many of us still have to explore a lot of the old, tonal music, so we have still a lot of pieces to discover in the kind of music that we enjoy.


Thks for yr kind reminder. I love tonal music and film music probably as much as you do.Contrarily to most people i fell in love with contemporary at a very young age (8 years old). It came in addition to all the other music i love and the list is too long to mention. I also happen to be a fanatic rock fan and have a great affinity to Asian music.
I do not compare different eras or different styles of music. Each has its merits and makes people happy. 
What is particular in contemporary is that we can exchange with the composers, the performers, the people who write about it and i believe this adds to the experience. Contrary to what most people believe there is a lot of content in contemporary (which comes in addition to the amazing technical advances) and i admit this is what fascinates me and why i share some of my knowledge on contemporary.
In my thread "10 Living composers talk to TC" i have chosen the opera "Heart Chamber" by Chaya Czernowin. Before i made that choice i listened to Czernowin's entire oeuvre and in particular to her 4 operas. I also read a couple of books about her operas. They deal with our life, with present and future technology, with new musical techniques etc... Geniuses like Czernowin teach us a lot in 90 minutes, provided we are ready to listen and think.. I also had extensive correspondence with the composer.
It is absolutely not my purpose to force anybody to listen to anything or to read anything. I just open up a possibility and insist a bit with the youngsters because they have a lifetime ahead of them. Personally i try to listen to a very wide spectrum of music.If you get the impression i champion only contemporary it is a false impression. But few people on TC are knowledgeable in this field and I consider it one of the most fascinating genres in history. People like Merl, Josquin, Mike H, San Antone, Moon, to mention a few know quite a bit about the subject. So i believe i do not deserve this hostility that is fuelled by a few members. Luckily a lot of people are very grateful and contact me privately. Cheers JK


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

justekaia said:


> the story is ongoing and leads to composers like G.F. Hahn, Zubuokle Martinaityte, Chris Cerrone, Hector Parra, Lei Liang who are some of today's masters. I would be sorry for you if you did not listen to them.


You mention Martinaityte. I have been completely smitten with Nunc fluens. Nunc stans, Ex tenebris lux and Sielunmaisema.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

HansZimmer said:


> Some persons (including me) like tonal, melodic music. This is why they are not so open to a great part of contemporary classical music.
> 
> Keep in mind that many of us still have to explore a lot of the old, tonal music, so we have still a lot of pieces to discover in the kind of music that we enjoy.


Yes.

I have some trouble enjoying complex "intellectual" avant-garde random-sounding music, no matter how well organized the sound of chaos might be. If it SOUNDS like a construction site, I'm not really likely to be impressed. Sometimes it makes more sense to listen with a scrolling score vid, but I recently ran across one that was visually as chaotic as it sounded, so that was that. I mean, really, I can appreciate the idea, but that doesn't make it necessarily listenable.

I don't know if I'll ever get to hear ALL of Mozart's, Haydn's, or Beethoven's catalog before I'm "toes up". I give atonal and experimental music deliberate listen frequently, but it seems like the payoff isn't worth the effort. Yeah, occasionally there's some modern piece that I like, but the percentages of that are pretty low.


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

pianozach said:


> Yes.
> 
> I have some trouble enjoying complex "intellectual" avant-garde random-sounding music, no matter how well organized the sound of chaos might be. If it SOUNDS like a construction site, I'm not really likely to be impressed. Sometimes it makes more sense to listen with a scrolling score vid, but I recently ran across one that was visually as chaotic as it sounded, so that was that. I mean, really, I can appreciate the idea, but that doesn't make it necessarily listenable.
> 
> I don't know if I'll ever get to hear ALL of Mozart's, Haydn's, or Beethoven's catalog before I'm "toes up". I give atonal and experimental music deliberate listen frequently, but it seems like the payoff isn't worth the effort. Yeah, occasionally there's some modern piece that I like, but the percentages of that are pretty low.


we all have different approaches and likes/dislikes; i have opted from the start for an archive divided into pre 1950 composers and post 1950 composers; all the available works are mentioned with a star for a work that i like; there are 950 composers in total; i have heard all the works at least once but regularly go back to the works with a star; you might want to do a mini-version of this system; of course you might want to have several versions of your faves; regarding the contemporary it makes sense to determine what kind you might like and then try to identify the composers who correspond to your likes; there is simply too much new music around and it its difficult to make choices; good luck


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## perempe (Feb 27, 2014)

I had problems describing the passage I like in Dvořák's Symphony No. 8.


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

perempe said:


> I had problems describing the passage I like in Dvořák's Symphony No. 8.


I suppose you mean the third movement which is one of his most inspired ones; almost like a waltz. The initial melody consists of long phrases that slowly descend.Three notes start each phrase, which give the melody a superb impetus. A haunting little interjection from the woodwind alternates with this melody. 
The middle section of the movement is even more charming. Flute and oboe sing a melody, while the strings play a cross-rhythm and the cellos mutter a pattern of arpeggios.After a repeat from oboe, bassoon and strings, the strings take on the melody for a final time.
Dvorak rounds off the movement with a coda, a witty, chattering dance, led by oboes and bassoons, which is derived from the middle section.
This movement owes much to the beauty of the woodwind instruments.
It is a great moment in Dvorak's symphonies and is much more interesting for me than the bombastic last symphony. I sincerely hope this will help you appreciate the music even more.


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## perempe (Feb 27, 2014)

justekaia said:


> I suppose you mean the third movement which is one of his most inspired ones; almost like a waltz. The initial melody consists of long phrases that slowly descend.Three notes start each phrase, which give the melody a superb impetus. A haunting little interjection from the woodwind alternates with this melody.
> The middle section of the movement is even more charming. Flute and oboe sing a melody, while the strings play a cross-rhythm and the cellos mutter a pattern of arpeggios.After a repeat from oboe, bassoon and strings, the strings take on the melody for a final time.
> Dvorak rounds off the movement with a coda, a witty, chattering dance, led by oboes and bassoons, which is derived from the middle section.
> This movement owes much to the beauty of the woodwind instruments.
> It is a great moment in Dvorak's symphonies and is much more interesting for me than the bombastic last symphony. I sincerely hope this will help you appreciate the music even more.


You did not open the link. I like the ritardando before the end of the symphony.

I posted this because even I have problems describing what I like, and I learnt to play the piano in music school (during elementary school). Not surprised that less talk on works than recordings.


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

perempe said:


> You did not open the link. I like the ritardando before the end of the symphony.
> 
> I posted this because even I have problems describing what I like, and I learnt to play the piano in music school (during elementary school). Not surprised that less talk on works than recordings.


Dvorak interrupts the musing with a sudden return to the joyful whooping dance from the second variation of the fourth movement and wild accelarations bring the symphony to a satisfying close. That is the end of the symphony, that is very short and somehow refers to previous material.


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

eljr said:


> You mention Martinaityte. I have been completely smitten with Nunc fluens. Nunc stans, Ex tenebris lux and Sielunmaisema.


you are welcome with your comments. however I very much doubt any of your colleagues will pay much attention to them. you need to be more assertive, more provocative (that is my specialty) to get some traction.
in fact there are four types of music:
-deep listening
-scientific listening
-relaxed listening
-live listening (in concert)
the thing with zibuokle martinaityte is that she had various life experiences, had good teachers, is super intelligent and combines this with a sensibility for different cultures. it is a good starting point for a composer who will come close or equal her illustrious elders like gubaidulina or saariaho. all my threads are conceptual that means that there is an idea behind it. in my thread 10 women contemporary composers i feature 5 icons and 5 younger composers in order to show the difference; some have nearly completed their journey and others are on their voyage.
martinaityte is in the deep listening category; she is not in the scientific listening category like czernowin; which means that i enjoy czernowin intellectually more, but that martinaityte's music requires less effort and is linked to our present life and immensely enjoyable; no need to make an a-priori choice choice between the two; anybody who is interested by contemporary music should at least listen to a few pieces from these two composers


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## eljr (Aug 8, 2015)

justekaia said:


> you are welcome with your comments. however I very much doubt any of your colleagues will pay much attention to them. you need to be more assertive, more provocative (that is my specialty) to get some traction.


lol, yes, we see. I very much appreciate your "specialty." It does ruffle the feathers of those that have chosen to close their minds.
Personally, I am unable to pronounce my knowledge and preferences as superior since my ego centric years of youth. But even then, within my group, I was always the most open, experiential and experimental. I certainly surprised many at university with my eclectic interests and knowledge.



justekaia said:


> in fact there are four types of music:
> -deep listening
> -scientific listening
> -relaxed listening
> ...


My next challenge will be Czernowin's opera Heart Chamber.

I do appreciate your posts, know that.


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

i do hope this thread will become a place of exchange, dialogue, exchange on classical music; a place where members shares their faves, put questions and get answers; these answers will only be opinions but members might enjoy and benefit from these; as an appetiser i will post my favourite composers through the ages; i will not rate them (except for the contemporary) because i expect our members to do that; they are rated in my archives; however i am willing to answer any question you have to the best of my ability; plse bear in mind that i am not a professional, so i will not answer technical questions; let us go


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

Early Music Composers

-Belgium: Stephen of Liège
-France: Peter Abelard, Adam de la Halle, Guillaume de Machaut, Philippe de Vitry, Fulbert of Chartres, Léonin, Perotin
-Germany : Hildegard von Bingen
-Greece : Kassia
-Italy: Francesco Landini


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

Renaissance Classical Composers

-Belgium : Alexander Agricola, Binchois, Pierre de la Rue, Orlando de Lassus, Cipriano de Rore, Giaches de Wert, Guillaume Dufay, Jacob Obrecht
-England: Thomas Ashwell, John Browne, William Byrd, John Dowland, John Sheppard, Thomas Tallis, John Taverner, Christopher Tye
-France: Antoine Brumel, Josquin Desprez
-Italy : Gregorio Allegri, Emilio de Cavalieri, Girolamo Frescobaldi, Carlo Gesualdo, Claudio Monteverdi, Giovanni Pierluigi Palestrina
-Netherlands : Heinrich Isaac, Johannes Ockeghem, Jan Pieterszoon Sweelinck
-Portugal: Manuel Cardoso
-Spain: Antonio de Cabezon, Francisco de Penalosa, Cristobal de Morales, Tomas Louis de Victoria, Francesco Guerrero, Alonso Lobo


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

Baroque Classical Composers

-Austria : Giovanni Henrico Albicastro, Heinrich Ignaz Franz Biber, Girolamo Kapsberger, Franz Xaver Richter, Johann Heinrich Schmelzer
-Czech Republic: Frantisek Jiranek, Antonin Reichenauer, Jan Dismas Zelenka
-Denmark: Dietrich Buxtehude
-England: Jeremiah Clarke, Orlando Gibbons, John Jenkins, William Lawes, Henry Purcell
-France : Jean-Henry d’Anglebert, André Campra, Marc-Antoine Charpentier, François Couperin, Louis Couperin, Robert De Visée, Jacques Duphly, Antoine Forqueray, Jean Gilles, Elisabeth Jacquet de la Guerre, Jean-Marie Leclair, Jean-Baptiste Lully, Marin Marais, Jean-Joseph Cassanea de Mondonville, Jean-Philippe Rameau, Jean-Féry Rebel, Sainte-Colombe
-Germany : Johann Sebastian Bach, Johann Friedrich Fasch, Johann Jakob Froberger, Johann Joseph Fux, Carl heinrich Graun, Johann Gottlieb Graun, Christoph Graupner, Georg Friedrich Händel, Johann Adolf Hasse, Johann David Heinichen, Georg Muffat, Johannes Pachelbel, Johann Georges Pisendel, Heinrich Scheidemann, Samuel Scheidt, Johann Schein, Heinrich Schütz, Georg-Philipp Telemann, Johann Paul von Westhoff, Matthias Weckmann, Sylvius L.Weiss
-Italy : Ignazio Albertini, Tomaso Albinoni, Antonio Bertali, Giovanni Bononcini, Francesco Antonio Bonporti, Giulio Caccini, Francesca Caccini, Antonio Caldara, Giovanni Stefano Carbonelli, Francesco Cavalli, Francesco Corbetta, Arcangelo Corelli, Emanuele d’Astorga, Francesco Durante, Michelangelo Falvetti, Andrea Gabrieli, Francesco Geminiani, Agostino Guerrieri, Pietro Locatelli, Alessandro Marcello, Benedetto Marcello, Biagio Marini, Nicola Matteis, Nicola Matteis Jr, Tarquinio Merula, Pietro Nardini, Giovanni Antonio Pandolfi, Bernardo Pasquini, Giovanni Battista Pergolesi, Giovanni Benedetti Platti, Nicola Porpora, Luigi Rossi, Giovanni Samartini, Alessandro Scarlatti, Domenico Scarlatti, Agostino Steffani, Alessandro Stradella, Barbara Strozzi, Giuseppe Tartini, Carlo Tessarini, Giuseppe Torelli, Marco Uccellini, Giuseppe Valentini, Francesco Maria Veracini, Leonardo Vinci, Giovanni Battista Vitali, Tomaso Antonio Vitali, Antonio Vivaldi
-Netherlands : Johannes Schenk
-Spain: Santiago de Murcia, Francesc Guerau


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

Classical Era Composers

-Austria: Carl Czerny, Christoph Willibald Gluck, Joseph Haydn, Michael Haydn, Johann Nepomuk Hummel, Marianna Martines, Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, Joseph Wölfl
-Czech Republic: Franz Krommer, Anton Reicha
-England: Charles Avison
-Finland: Bernhard Crusell
-France: Alexandre Pierre François Boëly, François-Adrien Boieldieu, François-Joseph Gossec
-Germany : Carl F.Abel, J.C.Bach, C.P.E.Bach, W.F.Bach, Ferdinand Ries, Carl Stamitz, Carl Maria von Weber
-Ireland: John Field
-Italy: Luigi Boccherini, Luigi Cherubini, Domenico Cimarosa, Muzio Clementi, Gaetano Donizetti, Pietro Nardini, Antonio Salieri
-Poland: Antonio Cartellieri
-Spain: Juan Cristoforo Arriaga, Antonio Soler, Fernando Sor


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

Romantic Musical Composers

-Austria : Robert Fuchs, Gustav Mahler, Franz Schubert, Johann Strauss Jr, Heinrich von Herzogenberg, Hugo Wolf
-Belgium : Adolphe Biarent, César Franck, Joseph Jongen, Henri Vieuxtemps, Eugene Isaÿe
-Czech Republic: Antonin Dvorak, Leos Janacek, David Popper, Bedrich Smetana
-Denmark: Niels Gade, Rued Langgaard
-England : Granville Bantock, Arnold Bax, York Bowen, Frederick Delius, Edward Elgar, Gerald Finzi, Herbert Howells, Charles Stanford, Ralph Vaughan Williams
-France : Charles-Valentin Alkan, Hector Berlioz, George Bizet, Emmanuel Chabrier, Ernest Chausson, Frédéric Chopin, Leo Delibes, Louise Farrenc, Gabriel Faure, Charles Gounod, Louis Théodore Gouvy, Reynaldo Hahn, Edouard Lalo, Albéric Magnard, Jules Massenet, Georges Onslow, Gabriel Pierné, Camille Saint-Saens
-Germany: Ludwig van Beethoven, Johannes Brahms, Max Bruch, Anton Bruckner, Adolf von Henselt, Felix Mendelssohn, Moritz Moszkowski, Jacques Offenbach, Hans Pfitzner, Max Reger, Carl Reinecke, Julius Reubke, Julius Röntgen, Franz Xaver Scharwenka, Clara Schumann, Robert Schumann, Louis Spohr, Richard Strauss, Richard Wagner
-Hungary: Zoltan Kodaly, Franz Liszt, Johann Kasper Mertz
-Ireland: John Field
-Italy: Vincenzo Bellini, Ferruccio Busoni, Gaetano Donizetti, Ruggiero Leoncavallo, Pietro Mascagni, Giuseppe Saverio Mercadante, Nicolo Paganini, Amilcare Ponchielli, Giacomo Puccini, Gioacchino Rossini, Giovanni Sgambati, Giuseppe Verdi
-Lithuania: Mikolajus Konstantinas Ciurlionis, Leopold Godowsky
-Norway: Edvard Grieg, Johan Severin Svendsen
-Poland: Ignacy Jan Paderewski, Henryk Wieniawski
-Russia: Anton Arensky, Mily Balakirev, Alexander Borodin, Alexander Glazunov, Mikhail Glinka, Anatol Lyadov, Sergei Lyapunov, Modest Mussorgsky, Sergei Rachmaninov, Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov, Sergey Taneyev, Piotr Tchaikovsky
-Scotland : Eugen d’Albert
-Spain : Isaac Albeniz, Enrique Granados, Pablo Sarasate, Francisco Tarrega
-Sweden: Hugo Alfven
-Switzerland: Joseph Joachim Raff
-USA: Louis Moreau Gottschalk


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

Modern Classical Composers
-Armenia : Georges I.Gurdjieff, Aram Khachaturian, Vardapet Komitas
-Austria : Alban Berg, Hanns Eisler, Erich Wolfgang Korngold, Fritz Kreisler, Joseph Marx, Franz Schmidt, Arnold Schönberg, Franz Schreker, Ernst Toch, Viktor Ullmann, Anton Webern, Karl Weigl, Alexander von Zemlinsky
-Brazil: Heitor Villa-Lobos
-Czech Republic: Pavel Haas, Vitezslava Kapralova, Bohuslav Martinu, Vitezslav Novak, Erwin Schulhoff, Joseph Suk
-Denmark: Carl Nielsen
-England : Arthur Bliss, Havergal Brian, Frank Bridge, Benjamin Britten, Rebecca Clarke, Samuel Coleridge-Taylor, John Foulds, Gustav Holst, John Ireland, Ernest John Moeran, Cyril Scott, Ethel Smyth, Kaikhosru Sorabji, William Walton
-Estonia: Eduard Tubin
-France: Lily Boulanger, Nadia Boulanger, André Caplet, Cécile Chaminade, Jean Cras, Claude Debussy, Vincent d’Indy, Paul Dukas, Gabriel Dupont, Jacques Ibert, Charles Koechlin, Darius Milhaud, Francis Poulenc, Maurice Ravel, Joseph-Guy Ropartz, Albert Roussel, Gustave Samazeuilh, Erik Satie, Florent Schmitt, Germaine Taillefer, Edgard Varese, Louis Vierne
-Germany : Walter Braunfels, Paul Hindemith, Carl Orff
-Greece: Nikos Skalkottas
-Hungary : Bela Bartok, Erno Dohnanyi, Sandor Veress
-Iceland: Jon Leifs
-Italy: Alfredo Casella, Mario Castelnuevo-Tedesco, Francesco Cilea, Luigi Dallapiccola, Umberto Giordano, Bruno Maderna, Gian Francesco Malipiero, Gian Carlo Menotti, Goffredo Petrassi, Ildebrando Pizzetti, Ottorino Respighi, Ermanno Wolf-Ferrari
-Lithuania: Mikolojus Konstantinos Ciurlionis
-Malta: Charles Camilleri
-Mexico : Manuel Ponce, Silvestre Revueltas
-Netherlands : Rudolf Escher, Matthijs Vermeulen
-Norway : Johan Halvorsen, Geirr Tveitt
-Poland : Grazyna Bacewicz, Karol Szymanowski, Mieczyslaw Weinberg
-Romania : Georges Enescu
-Russia : Samuil Feinberg, Reinhold Glière, Dmitry Kabalevsky, Nikolai Medtner, Nikolay Miaskovsky, Alexander Mosolov, Sergei Prokofiev, Nikolai Roslavets, Alexander Scriabin, Dmitri Shostakovich, Alexei Stanchinsky, Igor Stravinsky, Ivan Wyschnegradsky, Vsevolod Zaderatsky
-Spain: Manuel de Falla, Federico Mompou, Joaquin Rodrigo, Joaquin Turina
-Sweden : Kurt Atterberg, Bo Linde, Wilhelm Stenhammar
-Switzerland: Ernest Bloch, Arthur Honegger, Othmar Schoeck
-United States: Samuel Barber, Amy Beach, Leonard Bernstein, Aaron Copland, Ruth Crawford Seeger, George Gershwin, Charles Ives, Walter Piston


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

ok


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

Just a side note: I consider the roots of a composer in order to determine his/her nationality. I am aware that many countries did not exist a few centuries ago, so if I list Agricola in Belgium it is simply because he was born in my home town in Antwerp. It is just meant as a help to situate the place where the composer grew up and developed his skills.


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

Contemporary Classical Composers after WW II

-Argentina: Alberto Ginastera (1916-1983)_, Osvaldo Golijov (1960), Mauricio Kagel_ (1931-2008)
-Armenia: Avet Terterian (1929-1994), Tigran Mansourian (1939)
-Australia: Brett Dean (1961), Chris Dench (1953), Liza Lim (1966)_, Peter Sculthorpe (1929-2014), Carl Vine (1953)_
-Austria: Peter Ablinger (1959), Friedrich Cerha (1926), Georg Friedrich Haas (1953)_, Bernhard Lang (1957), Klaus Lang (1971)_, Thomas Larcher (1963), Wolfgang Mitterer (1958), Olga Neuwirth (1968)
-Azerbaijan: Franghiz Ali-Sadeh (1947), Rahilia Hasanova (1951)
-Belgium: Stefan Prins (1979)
-Brazil: Jose Antonio De Almeida Prado (1943-2010), Michelle Agnes Magalhaes (1979)
-Bulgaria: Dobrinka Tabakova (1980)
-Cambodia: Chinary Ung (1942)
-Canada: Martin Arnold (1959), Taylor Brook (1985), Zosha Di Castri (1985), Nicole Lizée (1973), Cassandra Miller (1976)_, Marjan Mozetich (1948), Raymond Murray Schafer (1933-2021), Linda Catlin Smith (1957)_, Marc Sabat (1965), Ann Southam (1937-2010), Claude Vivier (1948-1983)
-China: Qigang Chen (1951)_, Yi Chen (1953), Du Yun (1977), Ge Gan-Ru (1954), Lei Liang (1972), Huang Ruo (1976), Bright Sheng (1955), Tan Dun (1957)_, Ying Wang (1976), Zhou Long (1953), Zhou Tian (1981)
-Colombia: Carolina Noguera (1979)
-Croatia: Mirela Ivicevic (1980)
-Cuba: Leo Brouwer (1939)
-Cyprus: Yannis Kyriakides (1969)
-Czech Republic: Ondrej Adamek (1979)_, Victor Kalabis (1923-2006)_, Krystof Maratka (1972), Martin Smolka (1959)
-Denmark: Hans Abrahamsen (1952), Pelle Gudmundsen-Holmgreen (1932-2016), Vagn Holmboe (1909-1996), Per Norgard (1932)_, Poul Ruders (1949)_, Bent Sorensen (1958), Simon Steen-Andersen (1976)
-England: Thomas Ades (1971)_, Julian Anderson (1967)_, Natasha Barrett (1982), Richard Barrett (1959)_, Sally Beamish (1956), George Benjamin (1960), Harrison Birtwistle (1934-2022)_, Charlotte Bray (1982), Gavin Bryars (1943), Cornelius Cardew (1936-1981), Anna Clyne (1980)_, Edward Cowie (1943), Laurence Crane (1961), Peter Maxwell Davies (1934-2016), Tansy Davies (1973)_, Brian Ferneyhough (1943), Michael Finnissy (1946), Alexander Goehr (1932) , Philip Grange (1956), Bryn Harrison (1969)_, Jonathan Harvey (1939-2012)_, Sam Hayden (1968), Kenneth Hesketh (1968), Simon Holt (1959), Kenneth Leighton (1928-1988), Colin Matthews (1946)_, David Matthews (1943)_, Joseph Phibbs (1974), John Pickard (1963)_, Naomi Pinnock (1979), Rebecca Saunders (1967), Robert Simpson (1921-1997), Howard Skempton (1947), Ronald Stevenson (1928-2015), John Tavener (1949-2013), Michael Tippett (1905-1998), Mark-Anthony Turnage (1960)_, Judith Weir (1954), Hugh Wood (1932-2021)
-Estonia: Rene Eespere (1953), Tönu Körvits (1969), Arvo Pärt (1935), Urmas Sisask (1960), Lepo Sumera (1950-2000)_, Veljo Tormis (1930-2017), Helena Tulve (1972)_, Erkki-Sven Tuur (1959)
-Faroe : Sunleif Rasmussen (1961)
-Finland: Kalevi Aho (1949), Einar Englund (1916-1999), Sebastian Fagerlund (1972)_, Paavo Heininen (1938-2022), Joonas Kokkonen (1921-1996), Magnus Lindberg (1958), Pehr Henrik Nordgren (1944-2008), Einojuhani Rautavaara (1928-2016), Kaija Saariaho (1954) , Aullis Sallinen (1935)_, Esa-Pekka Salonen (1958), Jukka Tiensuu (1948)
-France: Gilbert Amy (1936), Mark André (1964), Alain Bancquart (1934)_, François Bayle (1932), Franck Bedrossian (1972), Karol Beffa (1973), Christophe Bertrand (1981-2010)_, Pierre Boulez (1925-2016)_, Edith Canat de Chizy (1950), Bernard Cavanna (1951)_, Guillaume Connesson (1970)_, Pascale Criton (1954), Marc-André Dalbavie (1961)_, Francis Dhomont ( 1926)_, Hugues Dufourt (1943), Pascal Dusapin (1955), Henri Dutilleux (1916-2013), Jean-Claude Eloy (1938), Thierry Escaich (1965), Luc Ferrari (1929-2005), Jean-Louis Florentz (1947-2004), Olivier Greif (1950-2000), Gérard Grisey ( 1936-1998), Philippe Hurel (1955), Michael Levinas (1949), Ivo Malec (1925-2019), Philippe Manoury (1952), Bruno Mantovani (1974), Yan Maresz (1961), Olivier Messiaen (1908-1992), Marc Monnet (1947), Tristan Murail (1948), Maurice Ohana (1913-1992), Bernard Parmegiani (1927-2013), Eliane Radigue (1932), Thierry Pécou (1965) , Jean-Claude Risset (1938-2016)_, Yann Robin (1974), Philippe Schoeller (1957), Eric Tanguy (1968)
-Georgia: Giya Kancheli (1935-2019)
-Germany: Carola Bauckholt (1959)_, Nikolaus Brass (1949), Heiner Goebbels (1952)_, Friedrich Goldmann (1941-2009)_, Hans-Werner Henze (1926-2012), Adriana Hölszky (1953), Eva-Maria Houben (1955), Helmut Lachenmann (1935), Isabel Mundry (1963)_, Matthias Pintscher (1971), Enno Poppe (1969), Wolfgang Rihm (1952)_, Peter Ruzicka (1948)_, Mathias Spahlinger (1944)_, Karlheinz Stockhausen (1928-2007)_, Wolfgang Von Schweinitz (1953)_, Hans Tutschku (1966), Jörg Widmann (1973)_ , Bernd Alois Zimmermann (1918-1970)
-Greece: George Aperghis (1945), Panayiotis Kokoras (1974)_, Iannis Xenakis (1922-2001)_
-Hungary: Peter Eötvös (1944), Gyorgy Kurtag (1926)_, Gyorgi Ligeti (1923-2006) _
-Iceland: Atli Ingolfsson (1962), Thuridur Jonsdottir (1967), Anna Thorvaldsdottir (1977)
-Iran: Elnaz Seyedi (1982)
-Ireland: Gerald Barry (1952), Donnacha Dennehy (1970), Elizabeth Maconchy (1907-1994)
-Israel: Chaya Czernowin (1957), Yair Klartag (1985), Shulamit Ran (1949)
-Italy: Luciano Berio (1925-2003)_, Pierluigi Billone (1960), Franco Donatoni (1927-2000)_, Ivan Fedele (1953), Luca Francesconi (1956), Stefano Gervasoni (1962)_, Clara Iannotta (1983)_, Luigi Nono (1924-1990)_, Fausto Romitelli (1963-2004), Lucia Ronchetti (1963), Giacinto Scelsi (1905-1988), Salvatore Sciarrino (1947), Marco Stroppa (1959), Francesca Verunelli (1979)_
-Japan: Dai Fujikura (1977)_, Toshio Hosokawa (1955)_*, Misato Mochizuki (1969), Akira Nishimura (1953) , Toru Takemitsu (1930-1996)*, Takashi Yoshimatsu (1953), Joji Yuasa (1929)
-Korea: Unsuk Chin (1961) , Younghi Pagh-Paan (1945), Isang Yun (1917-1995)
-Latvia: Peteris Vasks (1946)
-Lithuania: Juste Janulyte (1982), Egidija Medeksaite (1979), Onute Narbutaite (1956)_, Zibuokle Martinaityte (1973)_
-Mexico: Julio Estrada (1943), Arturo Fuentes (1975), Victor Ibarra (1978), Mario Lavista (1943-2021)_, Hilda Paredes (1957)_
-Netherlands: Peter Adriaansz (1966), Simeon ten Holt (1923-2012), Louis Andriessen (1939-2021), Michel Van der Aa (1970)
-New Zealand: Eve de Castro-Robinson (1956), Denis Smalley (1946)
-Norway: Eivind Buene (1973), Arne Nordheim (1930-2010)
-Peru: Juan Arroyo (1981)
-Poland: Hendryk Gorecki (1933-2010)_, Witold Lutoslawski (1913-1994), Krzysztof Meyer (1943), Andrzej Panufnik (1914-1991), Krzysztof Penderecki (1933-2020), Joanna Wozny (1973), Agata Zubel (1978)_
-Portugal: Emmanuel Nunes (1941-2012), Joao Pedro Oliveira (1959)*, Jaime Reis (1983)
-Romania: Maia Ciobanu (1952)_, Iancu Dumitrescu (1944), Horatiu Radulescu (1942-2008)_, Doina Rotaru (1951)
-Russia: Sergey Akhunov (1967), Vyacheslav Artyomov (1940), Edison Denisov (1929-1996)_, Alissa Firsova (1986), Sofia Gubaidulina (1931)_, Vera Ivanova (1977), Marina Khorkova (1981), Nikolai Korndorf (1947-2001)_, Vladimir Martynov (1946), Alexander Raskatov (1953), Elena Rykova (1991), Alfred Schnittke (1934-1998)_, Rodion Shchedrin (1932), Boris Tishchenko (1939-2010) , Galina Ustvolskaya (1919-2006)
-Scotland: James Dillon (1950)_, Helen Grime (1981), Alistair Hinton (1950), Oliver Knussen (1952-2018), James MacMillan (1959)_
-Serbia: Milica Djordjevic (1984)
-Slovakia: Adrian Democ (1985), Vladimir Godar (1956)
-Slovenia: Nina Senk (1982)
-South Africa: Priaulx Rainier (1903-1986), Kevin Volans (1947)
-Spain: Francisco Coll (1985)_, Gustavo Diaz-Jerez (1970)_, Francisco Guerrero (1951-1997)_, Jose Manuel Lopez Lopez (1956), Joan Mangrane (1988), Elena Mendoza (1973), Hector Parra (1976), Alberto Posadas (1967), Roberto Gerhard (1896-1970), Mauricio Sotelo (1961)_
-Sweden: Ellen Arkbro (1990), Malin Bang (1974), Anders Hillborg (1954), Allan Pettersson (1911-1980)_, Ylva Skog (1963), Lisa Streich (1985), Andrea Tarrodi (1981)_
-Switzerland: Dieter Ammann (1962)_, Richard Dubugnon (1968), Jürg Frey (1953)_, Beat Furrer (1954), Klaus Huber (1924-2017), Michael Jarrell (1958), Helena Winkelman (1974)
-Turkey: T.Ercetin (1983)
-Ukraine: Leonid Desyatnikov (1955), Valentin Silvestrov (1937)
-United States: John Coolidge Adams (1947) , John Luther Adams (1953) , Lera Auerbach (1973) , Milton Babbitt (1916-2011)_, Mason Bates(1977)_, John Cage (1912-1992)_, Robert Carl (1954), Richard Carrick (1971), Elliott Carter (1908-2012)_, Christopher Cerrone (1984), Anthony Cheung (1982), John Chowning (1934), Gloria Coates (1938), John Corigliano (1938), George Crumb (1929), Sebastian Currier (1953), Bryce Dessner (1976), Alexandra du Bois (1981)_,William Duckworth (1943-2012), Julius Eastman (1940-1990), Jason Eckardt (1971) , Robert Erickson (1917-1997), Mohammed Fairouz (1985)_ , Morton Feldman (1926-1987)_, George Flynn (1937), Peter Garland (1952), Stacy Garrop (1969), Randy Gibson (1978), Philip Glass (1937), Michael Gordon (1956), John Harbison (1938), Lou Harrison (1917-2003), Michael Harrison (1959), Jake Heggie (1961), Sarah Hennies (1979), Michael Hersch (1971), Jennifer Higdon (1962), Alan Hovhaness (1911-2000), Dennis Johnson (1938), Tom Johnson (1938), Ben Johnston (1926-2019)_, Aaron Jay Kernis (1960)_, Catherine Lamb (1982), David Lang (1957), Libby Larsen (1950), Hannah Lash (1981), Benjamin Lees (1924-2010), Lowell Liebermann (1961), Alvin Lucier (1931-2021), Andrew McIntosh (1985), Ingram Marshall (1942-2022), Sky Macklay (1988), James Matheson (1970), Missy Mazzoli (1980) , Meredith Monk (1942), Nico Muhly (1981), Andrew Norman (1979), Pauline Oliveros (1932-2016), Tristan Perich (1982), Vincent Persichetti (1915-1987), Kory Reeder (1993), Steve Reich (1936), Roger Reynolds (1935), Terry Riley (1935), Ned Rorem (1923), Frederic Rzewski (1937-2021), Joseph Schwantner (1943), Laura Schwendinger (1962), Ralph Shapey (1921-2002), Elliott Sharp (1952), Caroline Shaw (1982), Gabriella Smith (1991), Kate Soper (1981), Tyshawn Sorey (1980), Steven Stucky (1949-2016), Ellen Taaffe-Zwilich (1939), James Tenney (1934-2006), Christopher Theofanidis (1967), Augusta Read Thomas (1964), Michael Torke (1961), Joan Tower (1938), George Tsontakis (1951), Julia Wolfe (1958), Christian Wolff (1934), Scott Wollschleger (1980), Charles Wuorinen (1938-2020), La Monte Young (1935)_


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Could you please name some contemporary classical composers that create non-atonal microtonal music using electronic instruments? Free atonalism is not my cup of tea, but I enjoy microtonality and polytonality. I need symphonies (my favorite category of music) in this vein that are uplifting rather than dark - something like this small song but longer, deeper, less repetitive, better structured, more intense and complex.


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

Xisten267 said:


> Could you please name some contemporary classical composers that create non-atonal microtonal music using electronic instruments? Free atonalism is not my cup of tea, but I enjoy microtonality and polytonality. I need symphonies (my favorite category of music) in this vein that are uplifting rather than dark - something like this small song but longer, deeper, less repetitive, better structured, more intense and complex.


hi xisten, sorry to disappoint you but there are not many classic contemporary composers who compose symphonies nowadays and certainly not symphonies with electronics; in this regard your best bet might be "Symphonie electronique" (1987) by Geoffrey Downes a member of the Yes rock band.
regarding non-symphonic pieces most good microtonal composers have at least some atonal parts in their music (Georg Friedrich Haas is a good example); there are some friends of mine who compose microtonal electronic music like Marc Sabat and who are more knowledgeable than i am to give you a pro answer; i have asked him to give me a reply; by the way he is a super composer; you should listen to his music


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

justekaia said:


> hi xisten, sorry to disappoint you but there are not many classic contemporary composers who compose symphonies nowadays and certainly not symphonies with electronics; in this regard your best best might be "Symphonie electronique" (1987) by Geoffrey Downes a member of the Yes rock band.
> regarding non-symphonic pieces most good microtonal composers have at least some atonal parts in their music (Georg Friedrich Haas is a good example); there are some friends of mine who compose microtonal electronic music like Marc Sabat and who are more knowledgeable than i am to give you a pro answer; i have asked him to give me a reply; by the way he is a super composer; you should listen to his music


Thanks for the thoughtful answer. I already know a few of Haas' pieces due to the games, and I enjoy them, but I had never heard of Downes nor of Sabat before. Later today I'll try to explore their music.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

You listed *Charles Avison* under "*Classical/England*" and I was intrigued, as *England* doesn't really have a tremendous volume of composers from which to choose. Yeah, sure, there's *Tallis* and *Purcell*. There's *Elgar*, *Vaughan-Williams*, and *Delius*. *Holst*, *Britten*, and, I suppose, *Tavener*. Oh, and *Sir Arthur Sullivan*. But nothing like the volume that came out of Europe. I'm not sure if *Handel* counts . . . he was a German that decided to be British.

I looked for something somewhat short from him on *Youtube*, to get a sense of his "vibe".






That's right; I found
*Avison : Concerto No.5 en ré mineur - I. Largo*
, one movement from a collection; *"Concertos in Seven Parts done from the Lesson of D. Scarlatti"*

It sounds decidedly *Baroque*. Of course, if he's deliberately attempting to channel *Scarlatti*, that makes sense. But it actually it sounds like "*fake*" baroque from some modern film score. 

💥

You also listed *John Tavener* under *Post WW II Contemporary Classical Composers/England*. I found his best known exquisitely beautiful choral work, *The Song of Athene* on Youtube, a gorgeous _tonal_ work that wouldn't sound out-of-place if you'd told me it was a late Baroque, late Classical, or late Romantic era piece. It was published in 1997, and written in 1993.


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

pianozach said:


> You listed *Charles Avison* under "*Classical/England*" and I was intrigued, as *England* doesn't really have a tremendous volume of composers from which to choose. Yeah, sure, there's *Tallis* and *Purcell*. There's *Elgar*, *Vaughan-Williams*, and *Delius*. *Holst*, *Britten*, and, I suppose, *Tavener*. Oh, and *Sir Arthur Sullivan*. But nothing like the volume that came out of Europe. I'm not sure if *Handel* counts . . . he was a German that decided to be British.
> 
> I looked for something somewhat short from him on *Youtube*, to get a sense of his "vibe".
> 
> ...


john tavener was an absolute genius who was supported by some excellent English performers like steven isserlis who premiered his fabulous "The protecting Veil" to the absolute astonishment and instant like of the English musical establishment; Thrinos for cello is also great. The star Maya Beiser plays his Lamento Phaedra for cello.Then you have outstanding pieces in his vocal music like:
-Funeral Canticle
-Eternity's Sunrise
-Veil of the Temple
His catalogue is far more impressive than the few pieces I mention, but they are a good introduction to his music.


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

pianozach said:


> You listed *Charles Avison* under "*Classical/England*" and I was intrigued, as *England* doesn't really have a tremendous volume of composers from which to choose. Yeah, sure, there's *Tallis* and *Purcell*. There's *Elgar*, *Vaughan-Williams*, and *Delius*. *Holst*, *Britten*, and, I suppose, *Tavener*. Oh, and *Sir Arthur Sullivan*. But nothing like the volume that came out of Europe. I'm not sure if *Handel* counts . . . he was a German that decided to be British.
> 
> I looked for something somewhat short from him on *Youtube*, to get a sense of his "vibe".
> 
> ...


regarding avison he clearly has been influenced by geminiani and scarlatti; js bach has been nearly copying marcello, vivaldi and so many other italians; mister händel has not only recycled others composers' music but particularly his own; even mozart would be a culprit if i follow your line of thinking; personally i am not really bothered by these practices; as long as i like the music and it is not a copyright infringement i am ok with it


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

justekaia said:


> regarding avison he clearly has been influenced by geminiani and scarlatti; js bach has been nearly copying marcello, vivaldi and so many other italians; mister händel has not only recycled others composers' music but particularly his own; even mozart would be a culprit if i follow your line of thinking; personally i am not really bothered by these practices; as long as i like the music and it is not a copyright infringement i am ok with it


regarding england i do not think we should be negative if we look at the history of english music; i have listed all of the best English composers since the early beginnings and they have been present from the start; they have not been dominant early on like the french, the flemish and the italian, but they were there; and maybe we do not know the full story; from the 19 th century onwards english composers have been more assertive and although they have not produced an acclaimed genius they have been very present; composers like charles stanford villiers are totally underrated in my opinion; others like delius are not really english and are not among my faves; but they are plenty of great english composers in the 20 th and 21 st centuries; this is one of the purposes of my lists; that our members see the shifts in classical musical through the ages and the dominance of certain countries during certain periods; if you look at my list of contemporary composers you will be astonished how many there are now in the usa whereas they were hardly present in the modern era; of course there are many integrated immigrants in the USA but there are quite a few in GB or Germany as well; the reason for all this is very simple; there are great music schools in certain countries nowadays and they attract talented musicians


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

are you all sleeping?


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## Chilham (Jun 18, 2020)

justekaia said:


> Contemporary Classical Composers after WW II
> ...
> -Norway: Eivind Buene (1973), Arne Nordheim (1930-2010)
> ...


No Ola Gjeilo?


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

pianozach said:


> Yes.
> 
> I have some trouble enjoying complex "intellectual" avant-garde random-sounding music, no matter how well organized the sound of chaos might be. If it SOUNDS like a construction site, I'm not really likely to be impressed. Sometimes it makes more sense to listen with a scrolling score vid, but I recently ran across one that was visually as chaotic as it sounded, so that was that. I mean, really, I can appreciate the idea, but that doesn't make it necessarily listenable.
> 
> I don't know if I'll ever get to hear ALL of Mozart's, Haydn's, or Beethoven's catalog before I'm "toes up". I give atonal and experimental music deliberate listen frequently, but it seems like the payoff isn't worth the effort. Yeah, occasionally there's some modern piece that I like, but the percentages of that are pretty low.


Perhaps, think of them as pieces of significance instead of whether you like them or dislike them (whatever that means to you). 

For me, if I can't imagine myself coming up with the important concept(s) of a work, whether it's the Grosse Fugue or a recent piece to experience, then I'm intrigued. I trust that the composer is satisfied with the finished work so why wouldn't I be able to follow his ideas? Well, these are good questions. Every venture is different.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

pianozach said:


> Yes.
> 
> I have some trouble enjoying complex "intellectual" avant-garde random-sounding music, no matter how well organized the sound of chaos might be. If it SOUNDS like a construction site, I'm not really likely to be impressed. Sometimes it makes more sense to listen with a scrolling score vid, but I recently ran across one that was visually as chaotic as it sounded, so that was that. I mean, really, I can appreciate the idea, but that doesn't make it necessarily listenable.
> 
> I don't know if I'll ever get to hear ALL of Mozart's, Haydn's, or Beethoven's catalog before I'm "toes up". I give atonal and experimental music deliberate listen frequently, but it seems like the payoff isn't worth the effort. Yeah, occasionally there's some modern piece that I like, but the percentages of that are pretty low.


The comment about construction site made me think of Louis Andriessen’s De Materie. Personally I think it’s noble and laudable to celebrate construction - after all, construction is creation and some people think that God created our world. This comes to the fore in the second part of De Materie - Hadewijch.

If you listen to De Materie I can give you one piece of advice borne of experience - make sure the neighbours our out.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

justekaia said:


> It is a mystery to me that TC members enjoy rehashing the same composers in endless lists, games, best of, 3 best composers of all times and all that kind of stuff.
> The thing our members fail to talk about is the quality of the music, the best works of the composers and the reasons why some works are better.
> Most members also are of the opinion that there is no classical music after Mahler.
> In fact TC is composed of a bunch of ignorants.
> ...


I'm sorry but this post is completely wrong-headed and you may want to reconsider your position before posting these kinds of ridiculous assertions. For one thing, you don't know the inner-workings of any of the members here. You just don't. You don't know what they truly like unless they come right out and say so and with this in mind, I think it's presumptuous on your part to malign other people just because they're not posting about composers that you think they should be listening to. I think I can speak for every member here in saying that we listen to what we want, when we want and we don't need someone telling us that we're ignorant for doing so. If you want to explore contemporary music and this is what you truly enjoy doing, then do it. If someone doesn't like what you like or doesn't do what you want to do, it doesn't make them ignorant. Another point I want to bring up, I don't play the little game of what work is better or what composer is better. That's a childish viewpoint. I listen to music that moves me and I suggest that you do the same. Don't drag other people through the mud because you don't like what their preferences are. I made this mistake on this forum with a member and I was dead-wrong to do it.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Neo Romanza said:


> I'm sorry but this post is completely wrong-headed and you may want to reconsider your position before posting these kinds of ridiculous assertions. For one thing, you don't know the inner-workings of any of the members here. You just don't. You don't know what they truly like unless they come right out and say so and with this in mind, I think it's presumptuous on your part to malign other people just because they're not posting about composers that you think they should be listening to. I think I can speak for every member here in saying that we listen to what we want, when we want and we don't need someone telling us that we're ignorant for doing so. If you want to explore contemporary music and this is what you truly enjoy doing, then do it. If someone doesn't like what you like or doesn't do what you want to do, it doesn't make them ignorant. Another point I want to bring up, I don't play the little game of what work is better or what composer is better. That's a childish viewpoint. I listen to music that moves me and I suggest that you do the same. Don't drag other people through the mud because you don't like what their preferences are. I made this mistake on this forum with a member and I was dead-wrong to do it.


I won't defend the post by justekaia that you quoted. Neither do I like your condescension casting doubt on whether justekaia truly enjoys exploring contemporary music, and stating that it is childish to "play the little game" of whether one composer or work is better. But I think that justekaia, Mandrya, San Antone and others bring a vast amount of knowledge and discernment to the discussions of contemporary music. We should encourage that.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Roger Knox said:


> I won't defend the post by justekaia that you quoted. Neither do I like your condescension casting doubt on whether justekaia truly enjoys exploring contemporary music, and stating that it is childish to "play the little game" of whether one composer or work is better. But I think that justekaia, Mandrya, San Antone and others bring a vast amount of knowledge and discernment to the discussions of contemporary music. We should encourage that.


I never doubted that Justekaia didn't enjoy exploring contemporary music. You should re-read my post. As for the other bit, music isn't a competition, it's about listening and, hopefully, finding enjoyment in what you just heard. I didn't say anything discouraging about any member who wants to talk about contemporary music. What I am saying is I don't need someone to tell me what I should or shouldn't enjoy. I like what I like and I'm not looking to pick a fight about it. Justekaia is just flat-out wrong in the initial post they made, especially in the way he/she runs other the members in the ground for listening to the music they want to --- this doesn't leave a good impression on _this_ member. That's all I'm saying.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Merl said:


> Trust me to arrive too late for the party. Can someone please flounce out of the forum soon? I'm really missing someone 'taking their bat and ball home' and we've not had a really good flounce for years, on here. I used to love moderating a rock forum where we had some of the best flounces I've ever read.


Merl, 

I agree that in a society of ignorers and look-the-other-wayers (e.g. Canada) a flounce can be necessary and cathartic. But times have changed. Hanging my hissy-fits out on the internet is something I won't do now. Incidentally, is a "hissy-fit" equivalent to a "flounce?"


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Neo Romanza said:


> I never doubted that Justekaia didn't enjoy exploring contemporary music. You should re-read my post. As for the other bit, music isn't a competition, it's about listening and, hopefully, finding enjoyment in what you just heard. I didn't say anything discouraging about any member who wants to talk about contemporary music. What I am saying is I don't need someone to tell me what I should or shouldn't enjoy. I like what I like and I'm not looking to pick a fight about it. Justekaia is just flat-out wrong in the initial post they made, especially in the way he/she runs other the members in the ground for listening to the music they want to --- this doesn't leave a good impression on _this_ member. That's all I'm saying.


Fair enough I was reading too much into your comment about Justekaia's enjoyment. I do think that whether one composer or work is better than another is a legitimate topic of discussion, though not one capable of producing a right of wrong answer. People listen to music in different ways. Finding enjoyment is important but not the whole story.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Roger Knox said:


> Merl,
> 
> I agree that in a society of ignorers and look-the-other-wayers (e.g. Canada) a flounce can be necessary and cathartic. But times have changed. Hanging my hissy-fits out on the internet is something I won't do now. Incidentally, is a "hissy-fit" equivalent to a "flounce?"


Pretty much, Roger. Hissy fits come first then followed by a flounce. Flounces are more fun though. 🤭


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

Neo Romanza said:


> I never doubted that Justekaia didn't enjoy exploring contemporary music. You should re-read my post. As for the other bit, music isn't a competition, it's about listening and, hopefully, finding enjoyment in what you just heard. I didn't say anything discouraging about any member who wants to talk about contemporary music. What I am saying is I don't need someone to tell me what I should or shouldn't enjoy. I like what I like and I'm not looking to pick a fight about it. Justekaia is just flat-out wrong in the initial post they made, especially in the way he/she runs other the members in the ground for listening to the music they want to --- this doesn't leave a good impression on _this_ member. That's all I'm saying.


for your info i have posted a list of a few pages of composers whom i recommend from the early era up to the contemporary era, which is ample proof that i like music from all eras and do not force members to listen to all these composers; you simply get a list for free that you cannot get anywhere else because it is updated until today; instead of berating and flouncing i feel entitled to a simple TY
for your info i am a lifelong scholar of socrates' teachings and ignorance is the basis of his teachings; it is a way to try and improve the level of the members of a group; i never did and will never criticise anybody for listening to the music of his/her choice; but what baffles me is that most members just chat instead of going into the substance of music


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

justekaia said:


> for your info i have posted a list of a few pages of composers whom i recommend from the early era up to the contemporary era, which is ample proof that i like music from all eras and do not force members to listen to all these composers; you simply get a list for free that you cannot get anywhere else because it is updated until today; instead of berating and flouncing i feel entitled to a simple TY
> for your info i am a lifelong scholar of socrates' teachings and ignorance is the basis of his teachings; it is a way to try and improve the level of the members of a group; i never did and will never criticise anybody for listening to the music of his/her choice; but what baffles me is that most members just chat instead of going into the substance of music



Socrates was a charmer! 

I can't stop myself using ἔλεγχος on internet forums.


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> I can't stop myself using ἔλεγχος on internet forums.


I'm totally fatootsed. You _must_ explore that comment in some depth; for example, the psychoanalytic implications of your apparent compulsion.


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

Mandryka said:


> I won't defend the post by justekaia that you quoted. Neither do I like your condescension casting doubt on whether justekaia truly enjoys exploring contemporary music, and stating that it is childish to "play the little game" of whether one composer or work is better. But I think that justekaia, Mandrya, San Antone and others bring a vast amount of knowledge and discernment to the discussions of contemporary music. We should encourage that.


Thks for your support Roger. My point is only to make people aware that there is good music after Mahler and Debussy. Most of our members' top ten stops with Debussy. Statistically it is impossible that there was no great composer after Debussy especially with the technological improvements that took place. But of course if you refuse to listen to any music after Debussy that is entirely your right and i have no quarrel with that, like i do not have any issue with people who pretend visual art stopped with Picasso and there is no artist of value after that. My own experience in fact started that way; when i was 10 years old i started collecting contemporary visual art and was ridiculed by all my friends. The same with contemporary music. What I collected is now hanging in the greatest museums all over the world. The composers i listened to are icons and not only in the field of classical music. I am equally interested by Rock, Jazz, Indian, Persian, Azerbajani, Chinese, Japanese, Indonesian gamelan etc... So my point is about giving people a chance to expand their horizon, not to force them to do anything or to listen to anything.
Hence my disappointment with TC overall, which i have voiced to the administrators, who have been very receptive and understanding.
In this thread i went into the provocative chat mode that is used by so many members and that has no value in my eyes. However you will see that this thread has more interest than the greatest thread i ever wrote and will ever write (because i will not write another one) "10 Living composers talk to TC". I worked for a year on the 10 Living " thread and will leave it as it is, i will make no further comment on it because in my eyes and in the eyes of the participating fabulous and generous composers it is close to perfect. In fact i have received more comments from these 10 composers than from all TC members combined.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

justekaia said:


> for your info i have posted a list of a few pages of composers whom i recommend from the early era up to the contemporary era, which is ample proof that i like music from all eras and do not force members to listen to all these composers; you simply get a list for free that you cannot get anywhere else because it is updated until today; instead of berating and flouncing i feel entitled to a simple TY
> for your info i am a lifelong scholar of socrates' teachings and ignorance is the basis of his teachings; it is a way to try and improve the level of the members of a group; i never did and will never criticise anybody for listening to the music of his/her choice; but what baffles me is that most members just chat instead of going into the substance of music


Did you even read my initial response to you? You quoted a response I made to _another_ member. Anyway, you're in no position to criticize what other members post. If you don't like the content of a thread, then don't post on it.


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

Neo Romanza said:


> Did you even read my initial response to you? You quoted a response I made to _another_ member. Anyway, you're in no position to criticize what other members post. If you don't like the content of a thread, then don't post on it.


your initial response is just gibberish and i will not stoop so low to answer it; i just stated my intentions with the list of composers i posted; you are critising another member's post; i am not; plse never post again on this thread


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

justekaia said:


> your initial response is just gibberish and i will not stoop so low to answer it; i just stated my intentions with the list of composers i posted; you are critising another member's post; i am not; plse never post again on this thread


My initial post to you wasn't gibberish, it was an honest assessment of your first post. Anyway, if I or another member wants to go in-depth talking about a composition or a composer's own history, then that's our prerogative and none of your concern. Creating a whole thread centered around a complaint about other members and what they choose to post about or what threads they choose to participate in is out-of-line and, honestly, I think this thread should be taken down.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Closed for now, for discussion in the moderating team.


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