# BWV 874 dotted eights in 12/8



## thomasschwarz (Jun 19, 2020)

Hi friends,

First post, question about counting beats in bwv 874 Präludium V in D maj. ...measure 5, left hand, first three beats (12/8 so first three eighth notes) seems J Gould plays it like two beats on the high d, one beat on the low d. So Why not notate the first two beats with a quarter note for the high d followed by an eighth note for the low d? It's 12/8. So we are talking about the first the eighth notes... Why a doted eighth and a sixteenth for the same unless we were looking for a bazaar 3 against 4 sound? Bazaar because the 3 side (right hand) already has the 3 devided (in part) into sixteenths...


----------



## thomasschwarz (Jun 19, 2020)




----------



## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

First off Gould is well regarded but controversial. He often deviates from the score. Its not really the interpretation to look at if you want a clear understanding of the music just as notated.

In the video what you called a dotted quarter is a dotted eighth, maybe that is why you are confused. I don't think the '3 and' lines up with the note you point to, it lines up with the 'and' after 2.

(It is _Glenn_ Gould by the way, not _John_ Gould).

Another thing to keep in mind is there can be different versions of the same works in Bach. I have the Schirmer edition of the D major prelude in front of me and it is different than yours, the measures are not notated the same way.


----------



## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

It is common performance practice to slightly alter the values of written dotted rhythms in Baroque music. Listen to this performance of the BWV 850 fugue, and take note of how all the dotted rhythms are "double-dotted" in the style of a French overture:






In general, Baroque music is less strict when it comes to playing what's exactly written on the page, and the performer ultimately can take some leeway if they so desire (I generally tend not to with Bach). A few composers sought to notate precisely what is to be played. Iirc Francois Couperin was one.


----------



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

There are 2 different divisive rhythms. Notice the 2 time signatures at the beginning. Before the 12/8 is the cut time or 2/2. Sometimes a quarter divided into 3 eighths, sometimes only 2.


----------



## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Phil loves classical said:


> There are 2 different divisive rhythms. Notice the 2 time signatures at the beginning. Before the 12/8 is the cut time or 2/2. *Sometimes a quarter divided into 3 eighths, sometimes only 2.*


I'm curious what this means, I think you might be right but explain further if possible. In 12/8 a quarter note is equivalent to two eighth notes, in 2/2 a quarter note is also equivalent to two eighth notes. So where does the idea 'sometimes a quarter note is divided into 3 eighths' come from?

What you say seems logical for the measure he is pointing to which only makes sense if each grouping of notes is equivalent to 3 beats. (the two sequential dotted eighths with a sixteenth equalling 3 each, a quarter note equalling 3, and that rest followed by 4 sixteenth notes equalling 3).

*edit* - I've often found compound time signatures confusing, put another way are you saying that in compound time signatures like 12/8 quarter notes are sometimes treated like 2 beats and sometimes 3? And basically one just has to intuit this based on how the notes are laid out in a given measure?


----------



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

tdc said:


> I'm curious what this means, I think you might be right but explain further if possible. In 12/8 a quarter note is equivalent to two eighth notes, in 2/2 a quarter note is also equivalent to two eighth notes. So where does the idea 'sometimes a quarter note is divided into 3 eighths' come from?
> 
> What you say seems logical for the measure he is pointing to which only makes sense if each grouping of notes is equivalent to 3 beats. (the two sequential dotted eighths with a sixteenth equalling 3 each, a quarter note equalling 3, and that rest followed by 4 sixteenth notes equalling 3).
> 
> *edit* - I've often found compound time signatures confusing, put another way are you saying that in compound time signatures like 12/8 quarter notes are sometimes treated like 2 beats and sometimes 3? And basically one just has to intuit this based on how the notes are laid out in a given measure?


Notice the very first bar has the 4 quarter values in the bass while the right hand has 12 eighth note values. Those are basically 4 triplets on the right hand, or 3 divisions per quarter. This reflects the 12/8 time. On the second bar, the right hand has only 8 eighth note values, so only 2 divisions per quarter, and reflects the 2/2 time. Rather than putting a lot of triplet signs, Bach basically made it clear he was using those 2 different divisions.


----------

