# who influenced the mature works of Webern?



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Webern is almost always mentioned as a pupil of Schoenberg, but while the use of atonality was certainly crucial for his work, there's an attention of space and a detached attitude in his work that is what made him in the eyes of many as the true first modern composer and that to me doesn't come from Schoenberg. Bach had probably a deep influence on him.
But I'd be curious to try to put him in the cultural atmosphere of the time and see what artists were going in a similar direction and where he came from.
Probably the most famous is Mondrian:









but there are other artists that were going in a similar direction:

El Lissitzky








Gerrit Rietveld








Hans Richter - Rhytmus 21 (1921)





and even before, there's the famous imperial villa of Katsura built in the 17th century, that had a deep influence on the architecture of the 20th century



















now, was he aware of these artists and works? Did he know gagaku music, to mention another music style?


----------



## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Paul Klee. Or maybe Kandinsky.


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

MarkW said:


> Paul Klee. Or maybe Kandinsky.


did you read something about this? Because there's too much joy and energy in Kandisky's work and playfulness in both artists for me to see a connection with the geometric austerity of Webern.


----------



## Kilgore Trout (Feb 26, 2014)

Hitler. Or maybe Hitler.


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Kilgore Trout said:


> Hitler. Or maybe Hitler.


I'm talking of artistic choices. Hitler was a conservative artistically and hated modernism and he would had put Webern in the "degenerate art" category without a doubt.


----------



## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I've never found "geometric austerity" in Webern. Just how we each listen, I guess.


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

MarkW said:


> I've never found "geometric austerity" in Webern. Just how we each listen, I guess.


I think we could talk about geometry, but if Webern is not austere, than the word austerity doesn't mean anything at all onestly.


----------



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I suspect nobody in particular. He was just stepping out on his own.


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Phil loves classical said:


> I suspect nobody in particular. He was just stepping out on his own.


I could be wrong but it seems unlikely me. I mean, painters, architects, works in between painting and architecture like the "proun room" above of El Lissitzky, cinema were all going in the same direction. Is it possible that for instance he wasn't aware of a movement like De Stijl?


----------



## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> I suspect nobody in particular. He was just stepping out on his own.


That's how he died too.


----------



## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

The author mentioned most frequently in Webern's published writings is Goethe. As Webern's correspondence shows, Goethe's ideas on botany (in which Webern had an ardent and persistent interest) and his work on visual perception had an important influence on Webern's mature ideas concerning the essential nature of music. Goethe's concept of the 'primeval plant', for example, and the process by which he thought the universe was formed which he called metamorphism, is the process referred to explicitly by Webern in connection with his own music.


----------



## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

norman bates said:


> I think we could talk about geometry, but if Webern is not austere, than the word austerity doesn't mean anything at all onestly.


I guess the words I would use most often to describe Webern would be pointillism and wit. And yes, austere for both.


----------



## Kilgore Trout (Feb 26, 2014)

mikeh375 said:


> That's how he died too.


I know it's a joke, but you know the story about how Webern was shot by an american soldier while smoking outside after a curfew is a myth, right?


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Kilgore Trout said:


> I know it's a joke, but you know the story about how Webern was shot by an american soldier while smoking outside after a curfew is a myth, right?


even wikipedia reports it as true, mentioning even the name of the soldier who killed him. Do you know a different story?


----------



## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

norman bates said:


> even wikipedia reports it as true, mentioning even the name of the soldier who killed him. Do you know a different story?


It's even substantiated that the guy who shot him got overcome with remorse and drank himself to death. Just an all around tragedy.


----------



## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

I've heard some people who went to school for music got really into Webern after studying renaissance polyphony. I'm sure there's a connection there.


----------



## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

"In 1902, Webern began attending classes at Vienna University. There he studied musicology with Guido Adler, writing his thesis on the Choralis Constantinus of Heinrich Isaac. This interest in early music would greatly influence his compositional technique in later years, especially in terms of his use of palindromic form on both the micro- and macro-scale and the economical use of musical materials."

"The Choralis Constantinus is a collection of over 375 Gregorian chant-based polyphonic motets for the proper of the mass composed by Heinrich Isaac and his pupil Ludwig Senfl."

From good ole Wiki


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I’d like to see that idea about Webern being influenced by early music justified. I am sceptical.


----------



## Kilgore Trout (Feb 26, 2014)

norman bates said:


> even wikipedia reports it as true, mentioning even the name of the soldier who killed him. Do you know a different story?


Yeah, the story on wikipedia is false, and it isn't even a good summary of the book it quotes (Moldenhauer).
Webern died inside (or on the front porch) the house of his son-in-law, Benno Mattel, a low graded nazi (most of Webern's family were active nazis, with the exception of one of his daughter who married a Jew) who was into black-market and maybe arm trafficking and others shady nazi-related activities after the end of the war.

In the wikipedia page "talk", someone sumarize the book:
"Mattel had been approaching American soldiers wanting to buy such items as sugar and coffee to sell on the black market. The Army decided to entrap Mattel and sent PFC Raymond Bell (a cook) and 1st Sergeant Andrew Murray to Mattel's house on September 15 for this purpose. While Murray and Bell were negotiating with Mattel in the kitchen on a price for the items, Webern had gone out onto the front porch to smoke a cigar. When Mattel came to an agreement with the soldiers and took out his money to make the payment, the soldiers drew their pistols and told Mattel he was under arrest. Murray then sent Bell back to the Army post to get reinforcements to accompany Mattel to jail. Bell, with pistol in hand, dashed out the front door and collided with Webern on the front porch. Bell thought he was being attacked by an accomplice of Mattel and shot Webern."

But this version is not even sure. Some says the American army wouldn't have send only two soldiers (including a cook) to do that kind of mission, especially considering the house have been under American surveillance for several days before the events, and Benno Mattel might have been involved in more than simple black-market.
What is sure is that Webern ended up alone at some point with one of the soldiers, Bell, who killed him in circonstances only Bell knew (and the American Army prevented him to talk). The accidental shot is plausible, but some says Webern might have try to give his son-in-law time to flee (but Webern was small and not really the combative type, so a fight is unlikely). Also, Webern might have been killed inside the house, and not on the front porch.

Anyway, Webern wasn't shot by a random soldier. The soldiers were in the house because of the shady activities of Webern's son-in-law, _a priori_ on an official mission. Webern got in the way, and got killed accidentaly.

The American army went along the story the Webern family (who didn't want the world to know they were all nazis and involved in questionable stuff) made up, because it was embarassed to have killed a quite famous composer, and it was easier to put the blame on an isolated soldier.
There is a "funny" letter by one of Schönberg's son, who still lived in Austria at the time, who, when he learned about Webern's death, called the Webern family story ********, and wrote he was not surprised Webern ended up killed, considering his family's activities.


----------



## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

In _The New Grove Second Viennese School_ item on Webern author Paul Griffiths says this:

"During the period of study with Schoenberg two of the thinkers who exerted the greatest influence on Viennese culture were Maeterlinck and Strindberg... Their influence on Webern is attested by his projected and accomplished settings of writings by them and others (Trakl and George)...

"He was perhaps more explicit in a letter of 1911 to Berg (saying), "And Strindberg and Mahler? Maeterlinck and Schoenberg? Also Strindberg and Schoenberg? Rays of God.

"For Webern the most important teacher was the world of nature ... knowledge of God ...As he wrote again in 1919 to Berg, 'I love all nature but most of all that which is found in the mountains."

None of these short Mahler and Schoenberg were musical influences, of course. His musical style, creating miniatures, was his own.


----------



## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> I'd like to see that idea about Webern being influenced by early music justified. I am sceptical.


A quote from this article https://mahlerfoundation.org/mahler/contemporaries/anton-webern/ on the Mahler Foundation website.

"This interest in early music would greatly influence his compositional technique in later years, especially in terms of his use of palindromic form on both the micro- and macro-scale and the economical use of musical materials."


----------



## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> I'd like to see that idea about Webern being influenced by early music justified. I am sceptical.


No reason to be skeptical, he was.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

SanAntone said:


> No reason to be skeptical, he was.


Well just saying "he was" isn't going to do anything to assuage my scepticism. Where and how was he?


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Haydn70 said:


> A quote from this article https://mahlerfoundation.org/mahler/contemporaries/anton-webern/ on the Mahler Foundation website.
> 
> "This interest in early music would greatly influence his compositional technique in later years, especially in terms of his use of palindromic form on both the micro- and macro-scale and the economical use of musical materials."


Examples please of macro and macro palindromic form and economy of materials in early music, and their relation to Webern. Are they in the Choralis Constantinus? Where do we see them in late Webern?


----------



## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> Well just saying "he was" isn't going to do anything to assuage my scepticism. Where and how was he?


He studied musicology with *Guido Adler*, writing his thesis on the _Choralis Constantinus_ of *Heinrich Isaac.* (Grove)

This lifelong interest in early music would show up in his mature style, in terms of his use of palindromic form.

"Symphony op.21 .... This work is a brilliant tour de force of simultaneous vertical and horizontal symmetries (mirrors and palindromes) unfolding through a series of double canons. "

P.K. Bracanin: 'The Palindrome: Its Applications in the Music of Anton Webern', MMA, vol.6 (1972)
M. Starr: 'Webern's Palindrome', PNM, vol.8/2 (1969-70)
H. Oesch: 'Webern und das SATOR-Palindrom', in Quellenstudien I: Gustav Mahler - Igor Strawinsky - Anton Webern - Frank Martin (Winterthur, 1991)


----------



## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> Examples please of macro and macro palindromic form and economy of materials in early music, and their relation to Webern. Are they in the Choralis Constantinus? Where do we see them in late Webern?


Here's more from Grove:

Two predispositions that consistently shape Webern's 12-note writing are his propensity for canon and his fascination with symmetry.

The fascination that symmetry had held for Webern since at least as early as the op.5 pieces for string quartet acquired new scope with his adoption of the 12-note method of composition: now symmetry, like the semitone, could be built into the row itself if desired, as, indeed, it was in the row for the Symphony (ex.3a).

This deceptively simple-looking row is symmetrical at two levels. Besides the obvious palindrome (the second hexachord being the retrograde of the first at the tritone transposition, and thus any two rows related as R6 and P0 being identical), there is a second and more subtle symmetry between any pair of rows related as I9 to P0. This can be seen in ex.3b. The two movements of the Symphony, in ternary sonata and variation form respectively, exploit these two symmetrical relationships, the first making use of the I9-P0 relationship in the outer sections and the palindrome produced by P0-P6 (i.e. P0-R0) in the central development, while the second movement offers the complement to this arrangement. The row structure of the second (variation) movement reflects the horizontal symmetry of the row itself: here not only is each of the nine sections (theme, seven variations, and coda) palindromic, but the row structure of the whole movement is a palindrome, turning on the fourth variation as its axis. Characteristically, this structure is successfully obscured by the meticulous adherence to all the outward features of theme and variations: successive 11-bar sections are scored for different groups of instruments, each section heralding a change of tempo, texture, and style, and these features are not symmetrically arranged.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

SanAntone said:


> He studied musicology with *Guido Adler*, writing his thesis on the _Choralis Constantinus_ of *Heinrich Isaac.* (Grove)
> 
> This lifelong interest in early music would show up in his mature style, in terms of his use of palindromic form.
> 
> ...


It's extraordinary that there's no complete recording of the choralis constantinus as far as I know. I'd quite like to see what Webern said about it.


----------



## Caryatid (Mar 28, 2020)

I think the big underlying influence on his sound was always Mahler, even to the very end of his career, when his music was so far from being romantic. It's the sense of space and the care with which instruments are selected for particular sets of notes. 

Schoenberg was also a Mahler disciple, of course, but there the influence is combined much more obviously with the soundworld of Strauss, Wagner, Brahms and others.


----------



## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Caryatid said:


> I think the big underlying influence on his sound was always Mahler, even to the very end of his career, when his music was so far from being romantic. It's the sense of space and the care with which instruments are selected for particular sets of notes.


Adding to those already mentioned. my experience with playing Webern's Variations for Piano, Op. 27 suggests that it's a good idea to think broadly and be open-minded about influences on the Second Viennese School. They vary and sometimes seem contradictory. The program notes to Stephen Hough's recording of Op. 27 on Hyperion identify information from Webern's student Peter Stadlen: despite what one might think Webern actually wanted the first movement to be played romantically like a Brahms intermezzo, and the second to be in the spirit of the Badinerie from Bach's Suite for Orchestra in B minor. These notes suggest that the third reflects a sense of loneliness and fear with the approach of WWII. Perhaps, but my speculation is there is also a sense of hiking in the high Alps in the short-breathed phrases and frequent silences. I did some hiking in the mountains around Vancouver -- you stop to take in both the air and the view! Mahler was also an avid hiker and your comment about the sense of space and selection of instruments that the composers share is spot on. Another influence on Webern's mature works is the poetry by Alpine enthusiast Hildegard Jone that he set frequently. Yet another is the magic square as in the Concerto, op. 24.


----------



## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> It's extraordinary that there's no complete recording of the choralis constantinus as far as I know. I'd quite like to see what Webern said about it.


You might be able to find his musicology dissertation online somewhere.


----------



## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

SanAntone said:


> You might be able to find his musicology dissertation online somewhere.


I've looked but can't seem to find it (yet). If anyone does please let me know.


----------



## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> It's extraordinary that there's no complete recording of the choralis constantinus as far as I know. I'd quite like to see what Webern said about it.


Composer Christian Mason has written briefly on this:

https://www.bestmusicteacher.com/download/webern_isaac.pdf


----------



## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> I've heard some people who went to school for music got really into Webern after studying renaissance polyphony. I'm sure there's a connection there.


I agree with this theory, and I think that Harold Schonberg wrote in _Lives of the Great Composers_ that Webern was influenced by the Netherlands school that included the likes of Orlando di Lassus. So as a student of Arnold Schoenberg (no relation to Harold Schonberg), Webern would have come out of a tradition that was very much steeped in Late Romanticism, something very Wagnerian, very Brahmsian, and very German. That's how I pretty much see Schoenberg, who even as a Ultra-Modern composer was very aware of tradition. Meanwhile, Alban Berg takes a step sideways, as sort of as hybrid, perhaps technically more-or-less 12-tone but so rich and full of Wagner that it retains a quality of Late-Romanticism. Webern is the one that creates something cool and intellectual and well-suited for the atomic age. If I were to plot my favorite composers on the Hertzsprung-Russell diagram, I'd categorize Mahler as a red giant, very loose and overblown, lush and rambling. Webern on the hand, would be on the opposite side of the spectrum, a neutron star with all of Mahler's late-Romantic energy compressed into an area so tiny that one spoonful has the same mass as ten battleships. In this sense it really wasn't Schoenberg who came to dominate the international serial explosion that took place circa 1950-1980, but it was more-so, Webern, since Schoenberg still really had one foot in the Late-Romantic age.


----------



## Doctor Fuse (Feb 3, 2021)

There is an austerity in the minimalism in much of Webern's work, that makes me think he might have been an early Western student of Zen Buddhism. I have never read this, but his works have often made me feel this might be true.


----------

