# Composers that are carbon copies of other composers



## violadude (May 2, 2011)

A fun, not too serious thread. Just thought it might be interesting if anyone thought of any instances where they thought one composer sounds almost exactly like another composer. I've often felt like Weinberg was a carbon copy of Shostakovitch when listening to some of his string quartets, even though I'm sure if I listened more I could find some nuanced differences.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I recently saw Weinberg referred to as "Shostakovich without the genius." May be unfair?

Then there's Boccherini, nastily referred to at the time as "the wife of Haydn."


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Critics do this a whole lot and damn lesser known composers with faint praise. They often say someone is just like a more famous one but not as good, while not recognising their individuality. I find it annoying, happens in popular music too. I guess it protects whatever the canon is for music historians. Of course in some cases the influence might actually work both ways, or different composers may be just tapping into a general style which was prevalent at the time. But music has to be about more than just the general style surely, and to dismiss something just based on style (and who did or didn't do a style first) seems weak to me.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

There are also composers, like Vivaldi, who are too much like themselves.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

But keeping to a style and exploring deeply within it can bring a fine consistency of music in a period. We aren't used to that in modern times, we expect huge variety. But variety can at times mean doing many things in an average way but nothing exceptionally.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

*Bruch *is quite like Brahms & also Mendelsssohn.
*
William Boyce* is very similar to Handel.

*Alfred Hill,* early-mid 20th century Aussie composer, was (that late!) doing rehash of Beethoven, Schumann, Brahms, etc. (listen to his Symphony #2 'Joy of Life,' on youtube in full, and you may get what I mean). But he also did more 'characteristic' works, incorporating stuff from Southern Hemisphere region, so not as Eurocentric (eg. New Zealand Maori rhythms in some of his other things).

Debussy had plenty of guys rehashing him around the early 20th century, when he was in vogue (and he quite resented it). I am no expert on these composers, so can't offer any names there. But I'm definitely not thinking of the likes of Kodaly, de Falla or Griffes, who though influenced by Debussy, didn't just rehash his ideas, they used it as a springboard for their own unique ways of doing things.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

A side topic to this may be composers who, in some -a minority- of their works, copy other composers. This is usually in their early/earlier works when they're just finding their style.

Some things I know that are like this are:

David Diamond's ballet _TOM_ comes across as Copland rehash.

Zemlinsky's _The Mermaid _is heavily indebted to Tchaikovsky, he even literally quotes a tune from Tchaik, whether intentionally or not, dunno.

Janacek's _Suite for String Orch._ sounds to me to be a mix of a few things, principally Dvorak and Tchaikovsky (probably their serenades for strings, given the genre here).

That all being said, I quite like these works, and btw I also like Bruch, Boyce and Alfred Hill to some extent. Just cos something is rehash doesn't mean its automatically bad or not enjoyable for me.

I think that it can be argued that there is 'good' and 'bad' rehash. Look at all the composers influenced by Stravinsky's _Rite of Spring. _We can do a whole thread on that. Some composers integrated Igor's innovations into their own style and did something interesting with it. These are those whose music has endured. Others who just rehashed him holus bolus I'd hazard a strong guess are no longer known, or not widely known.

So the same goes for guys like Bruch - not an innnovator but he did write good music. Maybe even great music of its time, eg. the _Violin Concerto No. 1_ and _Scottish Fantasy _which are core rep for violinists to this day. This is despite Brahms by implication dissing Bruch's concerto, when he saw it he tactlessly asked Max what paper it was written on, saying this is beautiful music paper or something like that. Well maybe Johaness was too quick to judge the piece, it has endured beyond just the usual run of the mill rehash...


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Sid James said:


> I think that it can be argued that there is 'good' and 'bad' rehash. Look at all the composers influenced by Stravinsky's _Rite of Spring. _We can do a whole thread on that. Some composers integrated Igor's innovations into their own style and did something interesting with it.


The _Rite of Spring_ Family Tree...


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

starry said:


> Critics do this a whole lot and damn lesser known composers with faint praise. They often say someone is just like a more famous one but not as good, while not recognising their individuality. I find it annoying, happens in popular music too.


In popular music at least it is just a handy way of having a discussion when you're dealing with really abstract stuff. It's a lot easier to say the groups Flash and Starcastle are Yes clones, when they're really only vaguely similar.

As to the original question, the most glaring example I can think of is Anton Rubinstein, who marketed himself as a kind of reincarnated Beethoven, even to the point of trying to look like him. I still greatly enjoy his music though.


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

Dvorak often borrowed Brahms' stencils.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

You know Tori Amos I think is a lot like Kate Bush


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Sid James said:


> *Bruch *is quite like Brahms & also Mendelsssohn.


I definitely have to check Bruch out then!


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

This is a pretty confusing thread title from the "What's new?" screen.

Composers who are carbon[-based lifeforms?]


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Sonata said:


> I definitely have to check Bruch out then!


Max Bruch looked a lot like Pavarotti?????????? another carbon copy????????????? did they ever do brunch.....


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Sonata said:


> I definitely have to check Bruch out then!


Start with the three violin concertos and the string quartets.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

violadude said:


> A fun, not too serious thread. Just thought it might be interesting if anyone thought of any instances where they thought one composer sounds almost exactly like another composer. I've often felt like Weinberg was a carbon copy of Shostakovitch when listening to some of his string quartets, even though I'm sure if I listened more I could find some nuanced differences.


Yes, there are too many similarities Weinberg's music has with Shostakovich's. I do like some of Weinberg's music but feel he treads too closely to Shostakovich most of the time. Not a very distinctive composer IMHO.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

violadude said:


> I've often felt like Weinberg was a carbon copy of Shostakovitch when listening to some of his string quartets, even though I'm sure if I listened more I could find some nuanced differences.


And Boulez thought Shotakovich was, at times, "the second, or even third pressing of Mahler."


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

Everyone here on TC should by now know that Leif Segerstam is a reincarnation of Johannes Brahms, sans the latter's inhibitions!







vs








/ptr


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

ptr said:


> Everyone here on TC should by now know that Leif Segerstam is a reincarnation of Johannes Brahms, sans the latter's inhibitions!


And _sans_ his hair-care habits, apparently.


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## StevenOBrien (Jun 27, 2011)

The second movement of Beethoven's Pathetique is inspired by the second movement of Mozart's C minor sonata.






*rolls eyes* Do I even need to say what this sounds like?


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## ScipioAfricanus (Jan 7, 2010)

Herzogenberg and Fuchs are carbon copies of Brahms
Hummel is a carbon copy of Mozart


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Not a carbon copy, but one Amazon reviewer said that Roger Sessions wrote the Symphonies that Schoenberg didn't.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

It's an exaggeration though isn't it 'carbon copy' just doesn't really tend to be true, and as I said people tend to just use it to denigrate the lesser known composer.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Ippolitov Ivanov is very much like Rimsky-Korsakov, primarily in orchestration. He actually studied under him. Ippolitov Ivanov spent time in places like Georgia, that area, and studied the folk music. That all went into his Caucasian Sketches, which are like atmospheric tone paintings of the region.

Lehar is like J. Strauss II - with added Hungarian spice. Strauss had quite a bit of that in his music as well, though (eg. his operettas like Die Fledermaus are full of Hungarian and also Slavic soundings tunes). I suppose with Lehar you get a move towards more lightness of course by the time he died in the 1940's, the golden age of operetta had long passed, while musicals emerged as the dominant thing to kind of replace it.

Hoffmeister is so much like Haydn, there where works previously attributed to papa that are now most likely thought to be by Hoffmeister. The most famous serenade by Haydn is actually by Hoffmeister. I got it on a Andre Rieu cd of all things. It's a classic of the light music repertoire, has been for ages.

Another one much like Haydn was his manager when he went freelance, Salomon. This guy was a violinist and arranged papa's works (I got a cd of Salomon's arrangmenets of Haydn symphonies into piano trios - two of the London symphonies in fact, which Salomon was instrumental in getting Haydn to write and go to England to perform them). Again, previously some things thought to be genuine Haydn are now attributed to Salomon.

A thread I did on this before, a topic that fascinates me:
http://www.talkclassical.com/21284-attributions-completions-hoaxes-other.html


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## Andrei (Sep 11, 2013)

Sonata said:


> I definitely have to check Bruch out then!


I agree that Bruch is a lesser Brahms. But he certainly has the better melodic lines. In fact I tend to listen to as much Bruch as Brahms. I particularly like his works for solo instrument and orchestra.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Maybe this is not accurate, but Szymanowski used to seem to me like a Scriabin "sound a-like." I think there is a similar concept of him moving to atonality?


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

To me, most of the time Delius sounds like a severely watered-down Debussy.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

starry said:


> Critics do this a whole lot and damn lesser known composers with faint praise. They often say someone is just like a more famous one but not as good, while not recognising their individuality. I find it annoying, happens in popular music too.


Yup, and it often ends up robbing us of enjoying more musical variety. If Boccherini is just a sort of second-rate Haydn, why not just listen to Haydn? But B's music is actually quite delightful in its own right, and at least to my ears does not sound at all like slavish imitation of Haydn.



> I guess it protects whatever the canon is for music historians.


I nowadays make it my mission to destroy the sacred canon. Yes, some composers really were much better than everyone else. But we must be careful not to succumb to the Paris Hilton effect, in which people end up being famous for being famous, and we end up not even noticing all the beauty that is all around us. We stand in a seething crowd, on tiptoe, trying to catch a glimpse of Miss Hilton, and never even notice the breathtakingly beautiful girl right next to us (who is ALSO trying to catch a glimpse of the famous celebrity!)



GGluek said:


> Dvorak often borrowed Brahms' stencils.


Could be, but I am not aware of a single work by Dvorak that could possibly be mistaken for Brahms on a bad day. 



Art Rock said:


> Start with the three violin concertos and the string quartets. (By Bruch)


And the famous Kol Nidrei, and the Fantasia on Celtic themes, and the concerto for viola and clarinet, and... Bruch wrote a great deal of very beautiful music, and developed a distinctive style of his own, sort of a cross between Brahms and Mendelssohn. His music is very well worth listening to.



ScipioAfricanus said:


> Herzogenberg and Fuchs are carbon copies of Brahms
> Hummel is a carbon copy of Mozart


There are bits and pieces in his piano concertos that make me think he is a carbon copy of Chopin. Bad Hummel! Plagiarist! :devil:


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

I don't think composers tend to be carbon copies of another, that's often just a way music critics damn someone with faint praise. They say a composer is nice but they just sound like someone more famous. Quite a weak way of reviewing someone's work. Whatever style the music is in if it's done well it should be acknowledged. Maybe they are just worried whether the established composer (who they have championed and are a fan of) has their individuality weakened by someone else doing work in a similar style.


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## Perotin (May 29, 2012)

Medtner is said to be a faint copy of Rachmaninov.
And Buxtehude's organ works sound remarkably like Bach's, but since he was quite older than Bach, I suppose Bach is a copy of Buxtehude. :lol:


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## techniquest (Aug 3, 2012)

Ive said it before and I'll say it again: film composer James Horner is a deadringer for Prokofiev, but without the originality (he often uses themes composed by Prokofiev) nor the genius.
Also, listen to Dutch compser Willem Pijpers' 1st Symphony "Pan" and discover lots of sounds from Mahlers' 1st.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

clavichorder said:


> Maybe this is not accurate, but Szymanowski used to seem to me like a Scriabin "sound a-like." I think there is a similar concept of him moving to atonality?


That's interesting, a connection I haven't made. Maybe because I only listen to Scriabin's piano pieces, but for Szymanowski mostly music featuring violin.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Do Erich Wolfgang Korngold or Paul Hindemith becoming parodies of themselves later in their lives count as a sort of carbon copy composer?


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## spradlig (Jul 25, 2012)

KenOC : Doubtless you have heard/seen Stravinsky's quote, something like "Vivaldi wrote only one concerto, he just wrote it a thousand times."



KenOC said:


> There are also composers, like Vivaldi, who are too much like themselves.


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

Sometimes, Glazunov sounds just like Rimsky-Korsakov. I guess it isn't all that surprising. Like teacher, like student.


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## mstar (Aug 14, 2013)

Has anyone noticed a similarity between the music for Star Wars and Mahler, Star Wars and Brahms, and Star Wars and Tchaikovsky? Seriously, I don't know how he does it! 

This thread was started on May 7.... _Brahms...._ *in an even more sinister manner* _Tchaikovsky...._ 
Speaking of which, I think I can wait for Nov. 6 to come around. No, I just need to get it over with.... :lol:


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

mstar said:


> Has anyone noticed a similarity between the music for Star Wars and Mahler, Star Wars and Brahms, and Star Wars and Tchaikovsky? Seriously, I don't know how he does it!


Well, there are also comparisons to be made between Star Wars and Korngold, Star Wars and Stravinsky, and Star Wars and Strauss....


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Celloman said:


> Sometimes, Glazunov sounds just like Rimsky-Korsakov. I guess it isn't all that surprising. Like teacher, like student.


No way, they were both very different. Glazunov was much more urbane and cosmopolitan than his teacher (who was more folk-music oriented and exotic). In spirit, expression, climatic moments and pacing, as well as depth, Glazunov is closer to Tchaikovsky and to a lesser extent, Borodin. And in orchestration, he's closer to Rimsky-Korsakov in terms of resourcefulness and orchestral wizardry, though at the same time, rather Teutonic in technique and structuralism.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

clavichorder said:


> Maybe this is not accurate, but Szymanowski used to seem to me like a Scriabin "sound a-like." I think there is a similar concept of him moving to atonality?


Szymanowski might sound like Scriabin in his first works because they both were heavily influenced by Chopin and both tried to make something out of it. In their mature works, Scriabin and Szymanowski are nothing like sound-a-likes.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

spradlig said:


> KenOC : Doubtless you have heard/seen Stravinsky's quote, something like "Vivaldi wrote only one concerto, he just wrote it a thousand times."


But isn't the pretty typical of the music of earlier composers? And it doesn't have to be a bad thing, they just largely continued at what they were good at. Only in the classical period did people like Mozart and Beethoven clearly show an interest in really experimenting more with their style.


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## Moisey (Jan 5, 2014)

violadude said:


> A fun, not too serious thread. Just thought it might be interesting if anyone thought of any instances where they thought one composer sounds almost exactly like another composer. I've often felt like Weinberg was a carbon copy of Shostakovitch (hereafter "DSch") when listening to some of his string quartets, even though I'm sure if I listened more I could find some nuanced differences.


I hear what you're saying. For a brief while when I was acquainting myself with Weinberg's music (after having indulged in DSch for decades), I sensed that Weinberg's works were more "like" DSch's than anyone else I can think of. But time and repeated exposure to symphonies, quartets, and chamber works made me realize his music is distinctly different enough to avoid the "copycat" stigma. What I notice most of all is that where DSch wants to bob and weave and keep changing themes, Weinberg tends to stick to thematic development in a more compact way, where you hear the same "melody" again and again but always with some change here and there to the bassline or harmony with key changes up the wazoo.

Because you initiated this thread for "fun," you might get some enjoyment out of a quotation from DSch where he commented that he wished he could have written Weinberg's Sixth Symphony. The man literally was jealous of Weinberg's accomplishment. I recommend Kondrashin's recording, and for a more contemporary conductor, try Thord Svedlund's recording of Weinberg's 1st and 7th symphonies.

Personally, if I was required to compare the two composers, DSch would win hands down. But that is not to say any one of Weinberg's works can't be as good or better than one of his idol's. A sports metaphor might be useful here. If music works could be likened to NHL hockey team performances in individual games, a fan of the "better" team might reasonably be impressed enough by one or two incredible showings by a weaker opponent to admit "they were the better team today and I thoroughly enjoyed watching them execute a brilliant performance."


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## mikey (Nov 26, 2013)

ScipioAfricanus said:


> Hummel is a carbon copy of Mozart


Sorry, but no! His melodies may have a classical restraint, but his virtuosity (whilst being horrendously difficult - check out the amin piano concerto) is clearly edging towards Chopin.


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> You know Tori Amos I think is a lot like Kate Bush


But she has that special ''something'' in her music and words that is a lot different than very anarchic and erratic bush...Bush is ''old school'' she certainly influenced Amos but to small degree...


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bruckner can sound like Wagner having a bad day.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

hpowders said:


> Bruckner can sound like Wagner having a bad day.


This is very common ability among post-romantic German composers.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Aramis said:


> This is very common ability among post-romantic German composers.


I believe his hero Wagner was humoring him. He was most likely bored to death.


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## Copperears (Nov 10, 2013)

I actually find Stravinsky to be somewhat of a carbon copy of Ravel and Debussy, the more I listen to him. Clearly influenced by both, and far more conservative of their musical innovations than subsequent composers.

John Williams I don't even consider a carbon copy of Holst, just a plagiarist, who made a lot of money out of the utter musical ignorance of his audience.


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

Copperears said:


> I actually find Stravinsky to be somewhat of a carbon copy of Ravel and Debussy, the more I listen to him. Clearly influenced by both, and far more conservative of their musical innovations than subsequent composers.
> 
> John Williams I don't even consider a carbon copy of Holst, just a plagiarist, who made a lot of money out of the utter musical ignorance of his audience.


your first point I find baffling and a little perplexing. With the greatest respect it seems you need to listen to more composers, or at least more of Stravinsky's output.


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## DrKilroy (Sep 29, 2012)

Copperears said:


> I actually find Stravinsky to be somewhat of a carbon copy of Ravel and Debussy, the more I listen to him.


Really? The Firebird is a bit debussian, true, but Stravinsky's neoclassical and serial pieces sound nothing like Ravel or Debussy.

Best regards, Dr


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Le Sacre Du Printemps sounds nothing like Ravel or Debussy.


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## mikey (Nov 26, 2013)

Early Stravinsky takes it's cue from the French/Russian school I would agree, but after Petrouschka, it's a new kettle of fish.


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## Copperears (Nov 10, 2013)

Only Symphony of Psalms seems a real departure to me. I love all three, so this isn't a diss, but I do find after a lifetime of listening that there's more of Debussy and Ravel, even later on, than I'd previously heard. That's all. Firebird is, yes, almost plagiarism of Ravel, but that's obvious even with just one listen.

I'm less familiar with the Stravinsky of _Agon_, etc. but then again I am more excited by other "serialist" composers. I don't consider that period to be the one of Stravinsky's greatest work, anyways.


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## Copperears (Nov 10, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Le Sacre Du Printemps sounds nothing like Ravel or Debussy.


Listen to the entirety of Ma Mère L'Oye (not just the ballet suite) and then get back to me on that.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Copperears said:


> I actually find Stravinsky to be somewhat of a carbon copy of Ravel and Debussy, the more I listen to him. Clearly influenced by both, and far more conservative of their musical innovations than subsequent composers.


(Rubs eyes to see make sure I'm reading this correctly) Are you freaking kidding me? This has to be one of the most ignorant statements I've read on this forum in quite some time. Stravinsky sounds nothing like Ravel or Debussy and while we're on the topic: Debussy sounds nothing like Ravel and vice versa. It's certainly true that Stravinsky drew inspiration from French music, but the music that resulted from whatever that inspiration didn't sound French at all. Stravinsky even though he spent all of those years aboard was still a Russian composer to the core and this Russian core continues to rear its head throughout his entire career.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Copperears said:


> I actually find Stravinsky to be somewhat of a carbon copy of Ravel and Debussy, the more I listen to him. Clearly influenced by both, and far more conservative of their musical innovations than subsequent composers.


Well all three are of that objective aesthetic, not much or not at all into the emotional capital R Romantic aesthetic. I can't think of Stravinsky rehashing Debussy, even in his tribute to him, Symphonies of Wind Instruments. You got them all doing jazzy things though, Stravinsky doing ragtimes and Debussy as well, Ravel into bluesy and jazzy vibes in his Piano Concerto & VIolin Sonata. I suppose there are links, they definitely are in the same Parisian milieu pre and after WWI, but I don't see them as carbon copies. Keep in mind Debussy influenced Stravinsky and many others, esp. in the French tradition, Messiaen being a big one there, I think.



> John Williams I don't even consider a carbon copy of Holst, just a plagiarist, who made a lot of money out of the utter musical ignorance of his audience.


JW isn't the most original composer, granted but he's done some great scores and I think its stereotyping his listeners to say they're ignorant. I mean the Holst derivation applies to Star Wars but not so much things like Amistad, Memoirs of a Geisha or Angela's Ashes. I got those as well, and like many film composers he adapts to what project he's on. His partnership with Spielberg was one of the most fruitful such collaborations in cinematic history.


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## musicrom (Dec 29, 2013)

I think one of Rossini's themes in The Barber of Seville was stolen from the end of Christian Cannabich's 68th symphony. 

Cannabich:





Rossini:


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

mikey said:


> Early Stravinsky takes it's cue from the French/Russian school I would agree, but after Petrouschka, it's a new kettle of fish.


The opening of Act II of Le Sacre is very directly inspired by Debussy's Nocturnes for Orchestra.

Anyway, the similarities to Debussy in early Stravinsky are certainly present, but I'd say that the Stravinsky in these works is the most interesting part. And when you reach Les Noces, Symphonies of Wind Instruments (Debussy in memorium), the Octet, and so forth, Stravinsky's is the primary voice one hears, and so on throughout the rest of his career (which produced excellent works throughout).


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## Copperears (Nov 10, 2013)

Neo Romanza said:


> (Rubs eyes to see make sure I'm reading this correctly) Are you freaking kidding me? This has to be one of the most ignorant statements I've read on this forum in quite some time. Stravinsky sounds nothing like Ravel or Debussy and while we're on the topic: Debussy sounds nothing like Ravel and vice versa. It's certainly true that Stravinsky drew inspiration from French music, but the music that resulted from whatever that inspiration didn't sound French at all. Stravinsky even though he spent all of those years aboard was still a Russian composer to the core and this Russian core continues to rear its head throughout his entire career.


Thank you for being so shocked and for the ad hominem attack as well.

A good reminder to me to listen to music more, babble with mere mortals less.


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## Copperears (Nov 10, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> The opening of Act II of Le Sacre is very directly inspired by Debussy's Nocturnes for Orchestra.
> 
> Anyway, the similarities to Debussy in early Stravinsky are certainly present, but I'd say that the Stravinsky in these works is the most interesting part. And when you reach Les Noces, Symphonies of Wind Instruments (Debussy in memorium), the Octet, and so forth, Stravinsky's is the primary voice one hears, and so on throughout the rest of his career (which produced excellent works throughout).


Agreed, they're all quite distinct. Debussy in my experience and mastery of The Preludes Books I and II during my piano-banging days striking me as the best of the lot. Ravel the best of the three as tunesmith; Stravinsky, later on, neoclassicist like Prokofiev during a similar period and then serialist like Schoenberg subsequently, the most interesting musical sponge of the three.

There are no carbon copies, really can anyone take this claim seriously? There is always influence, however.

And yes, post-SW John Williams gets much better as a film score writer. Not as good as Hans Zimmerman or Danny Elfman, obviously, but better than early on, certainly.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Mahlerian said:


> The opening of Act II of Le Sacre is very directly inspired by Debussy's Nocturnes for Orchestra.





Copperears said:


> Agreed, they're all quite distinct. Debussy in my experience and mastery of The Preludes Books I and II during my piano-banging days striking me as the best of the lot. ....


Debussy's preludes are great, and have loads of symbolism, in-jokes and quotations from ragtime to God Save the King to The Marseillaise. Re what Mahlerian says, Debussy quoted the opening of Sacre back in one of the preludes. I can't remember which of the 24 off hand, I'm pretty sure its one from the second book. Debussy played through the two piano reduction of the score with Stravinsky, when it was fresh.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Copperears said:


> Listen to the entirety of Ma Mère L'Oye (not just the ballet suite) and then get back to me on that.


I know it well and I still don't hear it.


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## Nevum (Nov 28, 2013)

Probably the most classic example is Kuhlau as a copy of Beethoven. Especially one of his piano concertos. Is there a term "music plagiarism"? He defines it.


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## Nevum (Nov 28, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Bruckner can sound like Wagner having a bad day.


Hmmm..... Just...hmmmm It does not seem that you appreciate neither Wagner, nor Bruckner...


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Neither would make my top 30 list. Would enthusiastically place Mahler way above either of them.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Sid James said:


> Well all three are of that objective aesthetic, not much or not at all into the emotional capital R Romantic aesthetic. I can't think of Stravinsky rehashing Debussy, even in his tribute to him, Symphonies of Wind Instruments. You got them all doing jazzy things though, Stravinsky doing ragtimes and Debussy as well, Ravel into bluesy and jazzy vibes in his Piano Concerto & VIolin Sonata. I suppose there are links, they definitely are in the same Parisian milieu pre and after WWI, but I don't see them as carbon copies. Keep in mind Debussy influenced Stravinsky and many others, esp. in the French tradition, Messiaen being a big one there, I think.
> 
> JW isn't the most original composer, granted but he's done some great scores and I think its stereotyping his listeners to say they're ignorant. I mean the Holst derivation applies to Star Wars but not so much things like Amistad, Memoirs of a Geisha or Angela's Ashes. I got those as well, and like many film composers he adapts to what project he's on. His partnership with Spielberg was one of the most fruitful such collaborations in cinematic history.


People keep calling these guys' aesthetic "objective". How so? Please tell me how their music is objective. Also please explain how music can be "objective". How is their music unemotional? If their music doesn't count as emotional music, then what exactly makes music emotional?


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

BurningDesire said:


> People keep calling these guys' aesthetic "objective". How so? Please tell me how their music is objective. Also please explain how music can be "objective". How is their music unemotional? If their music doesn't count as emotional music, then what exactly makes music emotional?


Yeah - I'm wondering this too! A very quick google revealed nothing except objective/subjective appreciation - I think there's a bit of a general hang-up about "emotion" in music where it seems to be a set of cues/signifiers that exist in "romantic" music and in the style of some performers. It beats me though. I prefer the more flexible and perhaps less loaded term "expressive" to describe music that stirs me up but there you go.

Anyway - interested to see from whence "that objective aesthetic" has come


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

Lenny Bernstein said in an interview "I could go through Stravinsky's_ Rite of Spring_ and point out what comes from Mussorgsky and Ravel --note-for-note passages from Ravel-- outright, out-*******-rageous steals!"

A lot Stravisnky is just that, he stole melodies from everywhere he could and manipulated them through his harmonies and rhythms. Of course Brahms and many others did the same in their time.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

BurningDesire said:


> People keep calling these guys' aesthetic "objective". How so? Please tell me how their music is objective. Also please explain how music can be "objective". How is their music unemotional? If their music doesn't count as emotional music, then what exactly makes music emotional?


There is no possible true objectivity, but there can be a far greater conscious and deliberate (and successful) attempt to direct yourself and your work away from the more / most subjective emotionality toward a greater detachment from the immediate intent to convey personal emotions, or to consciously attempt to induce a specific emotion in the listener.

There is no controlling a listener, ever, from perceiving emotions, a story line, images as they listen to any piece of music.

I know for a fact you are very intensely involved with those immediate things above, personal emotion, conveying it, concerned to the Nth degree about what specific emotion, story, imagery you hope to convey. because of that, I think your resistance to understanding a completely different approach as being entirely possible might be near impassible at this time.

First hand, other than some songs I wrote which had to underscore the color of the texts (or why bother?) anything else I have made, sketch or completed piece, has started out with a musical premise without my having any conscious awareness or caring for its 'emotional content' or concern for any sort of emotional response the listener might have.* While hard at work my only concern is that the music makes a kind of sense within itself, and perhaps form, where I am quite "learned" but never having gotten much out of it personally, I would say I am weak.

Does (or might do) what I've written carry an emotional import to a listener? Sure. I am genuinely without a hint about much of any 'feelings' about what I write while writing it, and only by maybe half-way through might think of a more emotional dynamic the piece might have to myself or another... while that has never helped me whatsoever in the completing of a work, its revision, or as an abstract concept from which to build an idea upon prior commencing work.

Stravinsky, 'detached,' yet so much of his music has a powerful emotional effect on me, claims to have worked from a similar platform. The formal classicists, very much the same, yet we have all the gamut of a range of emotions with which we are pretty sure Mozart imbued so much of his music. He too, was thinking most of 'where the music should go,' than anything else more immediate (operas and vocal music excepted, naturally.)

From that more detached way of working and that aesthetic, the fact that some would feel they have spilled their guts out on the manuscript paper, their emotions and perceptions directly linked to the result, would quite naturally also have them thinking that their listeners should and would want to know the specifics, find those emotions and perceptions interesting _as attached to the music._

For me, whether it is my favorite quote from a former teacher on Chopin, *"Me, I don't care if he had a toothache when he wrote it."* or not giving Five Flying Rubles care about the circumstances Shostakovich endured to write the way he wanted (if he ever wrote, truly, the way he wanted is very much in question with me). Those all lead me to think that whatever the back story, intent as told in words and pictures, it is all simply and truly _extra-musical_, and can not possibly add anything inherently "organic" as attached to the piece. Ergo, I find it of little to absolutely no interest, and of 0 value in any way as to aiding or abetting the making of a piece. _(It really makes not one jot of difference to me as either listener or performer if Chopin had a toothache or not when he wrote _______.)_

People's reactions to music, almost all or most of it, will be to one degree or another 'emotional;' the music as music, I am utterly convinced, cannot convey any of those things in any really specific way _without the audience being informed by other than musical means._

Anyone with enough of the craft, even when using it at the most intuitive and intellectual level, will have a musical point of view, an aesthetic, and their personality or part of it at least will inevitably shine through even the most 'objective' of pieces. That some are not centered upon or at all preoccupied with personal feelings while they conceive of and write a piece is a very real matter of fact.

*The glamorization of self expression has reached ridiculous near-cosmic proportions, imho.* Another favorite quote, one I overhead between two women in the Los Angeles M.O.M.A. who were standing in front of a Julian Schnable canvas -- from his period of extremely heavily applied paint with broken cheap white dinner plates embedded therein. The one commented to the other, *"I'm all for self-expression, but it has to express something to me."*

I have forgotten both when this article I am now referring to came out in the N.Y. Times, and who wrote it. The review was of some recent music by grad students from in or around Manhattan (ca. mid 1990's). 
The reviewer said that those works which seemed to set out to convey an emotion, story, literal idea, or 'share' those young composer's experience were the least interesting and least successful of the lot. He went on to say nothing new, i.e. that _many a young person thinks their emotional experiences and perceptions (being so new to them) are unique and new to the human race as well, and therefore must be of interest to the world. Even slightly older listeners know those perceptions and emotions are neither unique or 'all that interesting.'_

The review then went on to comment that the pieces which were of the greatest interest, and seemed most successful, were those where the composer clearly started out with a musical idea or premise which was of interest to them and pursued that idea. (I.e. ...then wrote _"about that")_.

I would imagine those works ended up sounding more 'emotionally expressive' of something than the works of those more self-involved with the intent of expressing their personal emotions via the medium of music.

Detachment, lack of extra-musical incitements -- not impossible, nor are those 'dirty words.'

ADDED:*My innate inclination and approach from the get-go, not a cultivated mind-set.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

I think most listeners eventually realise that to get something out of music you have to put some effort in as well, though that probably isn't immediately apparent to most.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Lenny Bernstein said in an interview "I could go through Stravinsky's_ Rite of Spring_ and point out what comes from Mussorgsky and Ravel --note-for-note passages from Ravel-- outright, out-*******-rageous steals!"
> 
> A lot Stravisnky is just that, he stole melodies from everywhere he could and manipulated them through his harmonies and rhythms. Of course Brahms and many others did the same in their time.


"Lenny"? You knew him well?


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Copperears said:


> Thank you for being so shocked and for the ad hominem attack as well.
> 
> A good reminder to me to listen to music more, babble with mere mortals less.


You're welcome. I'm glad I could offend you.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Copperears said:


> Thank you for being so shocked and for the ad hominem attack as well.
> 
> A good reminder to me to listen to music more, babble with mere mortals less.


True you were certainly babbling.


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## Copperears (Nov 10, 2013)

And yet.... I am right.


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## mikey (Nov 26, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> The opening of Act II of Le Sacre is very directly inspired by Debussy's Nocturnes for Orchestra.


The opening of Nuages? I can see the shape but in terms of colour and character, completely different.

I do recall hearing a story of Stravinsky using a melody he had heard in the street in one of his works which was still under copyright (I'm not sure he ever composed a melody in his life ) but his treatments certainly don't make him a copy of the original.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Copperears said:


> And yet.... I am right.


Well "Right" in that few of the composers anyone might call 'innovative' are.... at least not wholesale out of new cloth in that none of them 'come from nowhere,' really.

Stravinsky knew and very much admired Debussy, and that some of _Le Sacre_ sounds 'impressionist' is / was probably to a degree, unavoidable. His early direct tribute, a piece dedicated to Debussy, _Zvezdoliki (Le roi des étoiles)_, has some deliberate and directly "Debussian" bits: his other piece dedicated to Debussy, in memoriam, _Symphonies d'instruments a vent_, may also vaguely remind someone of Debussy. Many 'hommage' pieces tend to have some quality of the works of the dedicatee, surprise, surprise.

As far as Lenny's comment, from people who knew him and worked with him (I am at a near remove via a horn-player pal) he was innately super dramatic / melodramatic, in the least of gestures and behavior which include his "pronouncements." Read enough, know people who knew him, maybe be American, and this is not some huge deal. I refer to Morton Feldman with fondness for the man's music, as "Morty" -- again because it is well-known he was called that. You know us Americans - no decorum about the formality of use of people's names 

Surely by a certain sort of 'logic', Stravinsky stole a major triad in root position from composer X, another major triad in second inversion from composer Y, and put them together a tritone apart: ergo, he "Stole the premise of _Petrushka_." Ha haaaa haaaaaaaa.

It was in _Petrushka_ where Stravinsky used a tune he had heard on a hurdy-gurdy, or some such, on the streets of Paris, and thought it must be a folk tune. Later, he was sued for copyright, the tune not a folk tune but a local popular ditty titled, "_La Jambe En Bois_," by Émile Spencer.* That case was won, Stravinsky ponied up via a small percentage based fee of the royalty gains from Petruchka. Very big deal, marks him down, I guess, as THE great composer of the 20th century.

None of the above at all explains why Stravinsky is Stravinsky, any more than it can explain away or diminish the depth and scope of all the works he made.

* the lyric dealing with the important issue of Sarah Bernhardt's wooden leg:

'Elle avait une jambe en bois
Et pour que ça n'se voit pas
Elle faisait mettre par en d'ssous
Des rondelles en caoutchouc'

'She had a wooden leg
and so it should not be seen
she had it fitted from underneath
with rubber washers'


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

mikey said:


> I'm not sure he [Stravinsky] ever composed a melody in his life )


Pastorale ~





Le Rossignol ~ The fisherman's song starts at about 05'00'' -- if you can not call that a melody, any argument is rather hopeless




This is also the kind of situation where some people hear a few notes in a similar set of intervals, and then scream 'rip off' -- the opening line, and harmonization in the Stravinsky are 'very like' the opening of Debussy's Nuages, for about a few notes only. More than similar, yes, less than a rip-off by miles 

Debussy ~ Nuages


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## mikey (Nov 26, 2013)

_Original_ melody I should have added. Of course it's hyperbole and a gross generalization (no need for any further remark on my account)


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The beginning of Le Sacre Du Printemps has quite the haunting melody. Some genius, that Stravinsky!


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

mikey said:


> _Original_ melody I should have added. Of course it's hyperbole and a gross generalization (no need for any further remark on my account)


Yes there is further need: Name some specific "original" melodies of what you think original, no matter the composer. 
Because if generalizations are all we get, then you are not a you, but a fairly discounted generality.


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## mikey (Nov 26, 2013)

I'm not quite sure why this is entering into a debate. 
I mentioned that Stravinsky stole a melody from somewhere (from Petroushka which you later posted). He also makes use of folk songs and 'ancient' melodies shall we say (Pulcinella for eg).
I'm sure he HAS composed 'melodies'. It was a passing joke; exaggerated as I mentioned; not intended to be taken literally. 
Now I'm done with this discussion.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Come on. Acknowledge that the opening of Le Sacre Du Printemps is one of the most original, haunting melodies ever written!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

hpowders said:


> You ain't done 'til you acknowledge that the opening of Le Sacre Du Printemps is one of the most original, haunting melodies ever written!


I read that Igor was having a drink or two in a bar where a famous jazz combo was playing (can't remember who, but somebody will know). The leader, saxophone I think, noticed Stravinsky sitting at his table and inserted in his solo the opening bars of the Rite. Stravinsky was said to have spilled his drink.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

KenOC said:


> I read that Igor was having a drink or two in a bar where a famous jazz combo was playing (can't remember who, but somebody will know). The leader, saxophone I think, noticed Stravinsky sitting at his table and inserted in his solo the opening bars of the Rite. Stravinsky was said to have spilled his drink.


Wasn't that Charlie Parker?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Could well be...


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

hpowders said:


> Come on. Acknowledge that the opening of Le Sacre Du Printemps is one of the most original, haunting melodies ever written!


NoNoNo. We didn't get the fact it 'was a joke' - (looking back at it, it DID have a smiley tagged on the end) So that party has picked up their marbles and left the playground (in a huff?).


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> Wasn't that Charlie Parker?


That sounds about 'Rite' 

...but what I really wanted to say,

That wasn't Charlie Parker. 
That was plagiarism!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

KenOC said:


> I read that Igor was having a drink or two in a bar where a famous jazz combo was playing (can't remember who, but somebody will know). The leader, saxophone I think, noticed Stravinsky sitting at his table and inserted in his solo the opening bars of the Rite. Stravinsky was said to have spilled his drink.


Charlie Parker was also a genius and was well aware of classical music trends. Wouldn't be surprised!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

PetrB said:


> NoNoNo. We didn't get the fact it 'was a joke' - (looking back at it, it DID have a smiley tagged on the end) So that party has picked up their marbles and left the playground (in a huff?).


Yes. I noticed!


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## Copperears (Nov 10, 2013)

PetrB said:


> Well "Right" in that few of the composers anyone might call 'innovative' are.... at least not wholesale out of new cloth in that none of them 'come from nowhere,' really.
> 
> Stravinsky knew and very much admired Debussy, and that some of _Le Sacre_ sounds 'impressionist' is / was probably to a degree, unavoidable. His early direct tribute, a piece dedicated to Debussy, _Zvezdoliki (Le roi des étoiles)_, has some deliberate and directly "Debussian" bits: his other piece dedicated to Debussy, in memoriam, _Symphonies d'instruments a vent_, may also vaguely remind someone of Debussy. Many 'hommage' pieces tend to have some quality of the works of the dedicatee, surprise, surprise.
> 
> ...


It makes me happy to know Stravinsky and Dr. Dre had the same problem. It cost The Good Doctor far more, however.


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

Mahlerian said:


> Wasn't that Charlie Parker?


It was, and it probably was a lot easier to play that riff on an alto sax than on a bassoon...


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I would think that the great opening of Le Sacre would probably be a standard audition piece for prospective bassoon hopefuls for orchestral positions.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

hpowders said:


> Come on. Acknowledge that the opening of Le Sacre Du Printemps is one of the most original, haunting melodies ever written!


Correction: Multiple haunting melodies in extraordinary counterpoint


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

PetrB said:


> Correction: Multiple haunting melodies in extraordinary counterpoint


I'm referring to the bassoon solo.


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