# Inter-Species Morality



## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

*Inter-Species ETHICS*

I know, I often start strange threads for no reason, but I think about strange things and have no on else to talk to.  

Soooooooooooooo, what do you think about inter-species morality?!? Obviously, the major manifestation of any kind of conscience in this area is vegetarianism. I'm not a vegetarian myself, though I think I should be and I just choose not to because I'm slightly evil and prefer the convenience (and taste!) of meat.

The reason I ask is a little more off-the-wall than the usual arguments. I know we treat animals badly. I know it's a naturalistic fallacy to say that we evolved to eat meats and should continue to do so. What I'm interested in is aliens!

As far as we are concerned, there is nothing immoral about killing (murdering?) a chicken, for example, and eating it. This is likely because of the extreme difference in sentience. So what if an alien species with a consciousness and intelligence far above ours saw us in the same way we see chickens? Then is it morally right for them to harvest us if they want to?


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2011)

Forgive me:
But wouldn't such a question presuppose some outside arbiter of morality? If we are all here as the result of the culmination of biochemical reactions shaped by evolutionary pathways, then crying that something is unfair is nothing more than whining that we happened to be on the short end of the stick this time. Whether or not it is immoral makes no difference if there is no judge to appeal to. If this hypothetical alien species has so happened to develop with the ability to digest morsels shaped like humans, then who is there to cry to that we don't like it?


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## Rasa (Apr 23, 2009)

Survival of the fittest isn't a moral principle. Inter-species morality can't exist.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Polednice said:


> The reason I ask is a little more off-the-wall than the usual arguments. I know we treat animals badly. I know it's a naturalistic fallacy to say that we evolved to eat meats and should continue to do so. What I'm interested in is aliens!
> 
> As far as we are concerned, there is nothing immoral about killing (murdering?) a chicken, for example, and eating it. This is likely because of the extreme difference in sentience. So what if an alien species with a consciousness and intelligence far above ours saw us in the same way we see chickens? Then is it morally right for them to harvest us if they want to?


This subject has been examined in several science fiction stories. If I wasn't so forgetful I could refer you to a couple of them. In the course of a story the matter can be covered in depth.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Sorry, I didn't realise this would start a pointless debate on moral relativism. I subscribe to a kind of humanism where we are the arbiter of our own morals, and those are morals that aren't hollow but which also aren't fundamental truths. If we can't get passed that, then I suppose the thread is already deceased.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Rasa said:


> Survival of the fittest isn't a moral principle. Inter-species morality can't exist.


Inter-species _ethics_ can and do exist, and maybe that is what _Poley_ is hoping to work out, morality being a non-starter.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

OK, replace "morals" with "ethics" and let's start again.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

I agree with a few of the above posters; there is nothing wrong with eating meat. Hunting and scavenging is something weve evolved to do and meat is an important part of the diet our digestive systems are built for.

But, if we look at so called 'indigenous people', for example the Bushmen, who arguably live closer to the natural state - they have the utmost respect for their prey. They kill only when they need to, in fact the traps they use are designed not to kill so that they still have the option to free the animal later on. They even make blessings to the animals soul. Now, im not saying we need to pray for the soul of every animal we kill, but still it seems a little better than crowding small cages with animals and feeding them chemicals.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

emiellucifuge said:


> I agree with a few of the above posters; there is nothing wrong with eating meat. Hunting and scavenging is something weve evolved to do and meat is an important part of the diet our digestive systems are built for.
> 
> But, if we look at so called 'indigenous people', for example the Bushmen, who arguably live closer to the natural state - they have the utmost respect for their prey. They kill only when they need to, in fact the traps they use are designed not to kill so that they still have the option to free the animal later on. They even make blessings to the animals soul. Now, im not saying we need to pray for the soul of every animal we kill, but still it seems a little better than crowding small cages with animals and feeding them chemicals.


I'm imagining aliens with free range human farms.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

I dont know if free-range farming is possible with predator species...


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2011)

But what makes human flesh taste best? Will the aliens prefer corn-fed humans, or omnivorous? Or could we also imagine some form of Kobe Human? Humans given a strict diet of saki, or beer, before their slaughter? Will outbreaks of prion disease cause the aliens to have to cull us? Mad human disease? And will they be susceptible to pandemic human flu?


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Fine, my question is stupid. Let's just go back to slaughtering animals because we are the supreme beings of the universe.


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2011)

I suppose that one major difference will also be that, with the centuries of humans consuming poultry, if not longer, chickens have not really developed a significant defense against us. We at least would be able to unleash conventional and nuclear weapons against alien predators. We would have a fighting chance, depending on how advanced, militarily, the aliens are.


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2011)

Polednice said:


> Fine, my question is stupid. Let's just go back to slaughtering animals because we are the supreme beings of the universe.


Fine with me. Hmm, suddenly I am craving a steak.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

emiellucifuge said:


> I dont know if free-range farming is possible with predator species...


Biologically, humans are omnivores - and not well armed. Pigs can be free-ranged, so humans probably could be, if the containment were adequate. As with pigs, the feed would be mostly non-meat. In one of the science fiction stories I alluded to above, the human stock was kept in a drugged state, to minimize aggressiveness and lessen awareness of their fate.


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2011)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Biologically, humans are omnivores - and not well armed. Pigs can be free-ranged, so humans probably could be, if the containment were adequate. As with pigs, the feed would be mostly non-meat. In one of the science fiction stories I alluded to above, the human stock was kept in a drugged state, to minimize aggressiveness and lessen awareness of their fate.


Wait, does that story include a guy named Neo, another named Morpheus, and the guy who plays Elrond on the Lord of the Rings?


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2011)

I'm here all day, folks. Don't forget to tip your waitress!

(Incidentally, I am trying really hard to hit the 2,000 post mark, and see if my account implodes from some P2K [posting 2000] bug, reminiscent of the Y2K scare! So you can expect more of such thoughtful posts from me throughout the day, as I count down the hours until my Christmas vacation starts!).


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## lou (Sep 7, 2011)

One of the more memorable episodes of the old Twilight Zone series was called To Serve Man.

Here is a video clip from the final scene. It will spoil the "surprise" ending, if you've never seen it.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I don't have a problem with slaughtering a chicken. The issue lies with the way the animals are treated and handled while they are alive. They are teated as though they were inanimate objects. The treatment of humans is not much better in many instances, so I don't foresee any progress in the humane treatment of animals raised for human consumption.

I don't understand the religious viewpoint of proper conduct based on fear for being judged by a "supreme being". If one's only motivation for doing right is based on eternal reward or punishment, I don't have any respect for that person as a thinking, ethical/moral human being.


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2011)

starthrower said:


> I don't have a problem with slaughtering a chicken. The issue lies with the way the animals are treated and handled while they are alive. They are teated as though they were inanimate objects. The treatment of humans is not much better in many instances, so I don't foresee any progress in the humane treatment of animals raised for human consumption.
> 
> I don't understand the religious viewpoint of proper conduct based on fear for being judged by a "supreme being". If one's only motivation for doing right is based on eternal reward or punishment, I don't have any respect for that person as a thinking, ethical/moral human being.


Wow - that last paragraph is such a straw man argument, I am getting flashes of the Wizard of Oz -

"I could wile away the hours, conferrin' with the flowers, consultin' with the rain, and my head I'd be scratchin' while my thoughts were busy hatchin if I only had a brain."


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Then to whom are you referring to as the "outside arbiter of morality" ? And if there is a god of all creation, then the aliens are only alien to us ignorant humans. In reality they would be are brethren in creation, so would it be moral to initiate a nuclear war in reaction to some of these other beings finding our flesh rather tasty?


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2011)

I was asking Pole whether his question required some outside arbiter of morality. And yes, if a God does exist, he would just as much be God to the aliens as to us, and I suspect they would have many of the same ethical concerns as we do - and would probably think twice about consuming a species that was able to reason with it. And I suspect that a species that had developed the capacity for interstellar travel would have also come up with new and creative ways to sustain their population beyond creating exotic game preserves on planets light years away.

To say that people of religious faith only abide by divine law out of some fear of retribution is as asinine as saying that most people only obey the law of the land out of fear of legal ramifications. For your information, my lack of a desire to kill my fellow man has nothing to do with the fact that I don't think I would look good in an orange prison jumpsuit. And were the legal injunction against theft to be lifted tomorrow, I would not suddenly become a thief, and I'm sure that those things remain true for the majority of humanity. So why do people believe such things of religious people, that there is some large proportion of them who only act as they do out of some fear for the sword of justice that God hangs over their head? Perhaps it is their desire to do good that has led them to religion in the first place?


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## Fsharpmajor (Dec 14, 2008)

Hilltroll72 said:


> This subject has been examined in several science fiction stories. If I wasn't so forgetful I could refer you to a couple of them. In the course of a story the matter can be covered in depth.


I think I remember once reading a science fiction story about aliens raising human females for their milk. It might have been written by Willy Ley. I can't find any mention of it by googling, though.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)




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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

I'm a complete speciesist, ethics aside. If a chicken could ever beat me in a boxing match or game of Monopoly, then I would promise to never fry them and eat them again.


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## Lunasong (Mar 15, 2011)

DrMike said:


> I am trying really hard to hit the 2,000 post mark...


Congrats. Since you're currently at 2000, I don't yet know the effect 

I'll kill a bug in my house, but I'll catch a spider in a cup and carry it outside. Is this related to ethics and morality?


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## Fsharpmajor (Dec 14, 2008)

regressivetransphobe said:


> I'm a complete speciesist, ethics aside. If a chicken could ever beat me in a boxing match or game of Monopoly, then I would promise to never fry them and eat them again.


Chickens actually have a secret weapon against us. It's called salmonella.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Didn't they read Lord of the Flies or was the Fries


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