# Blind Comparison: Tannhäuser Overture



## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

More distractions for homebound CM-philes!

I've rounded up five recordings of Wagner's Tannhäuser Overture. All information has been scrubbed from the files, so that we may compare and contrast them without the prejudices that knowing conductor or orchestra might introduce. Which are your favorites and why? Least favorites? Please refrain from guessing the provenance, PM me if you'd like to know in advance of the public reveal.

Here are links to download or listen to the MP3 files:

A - https://my.pcloud.com/publink/show?code=XZvhjMkZ3oa0a3GkzX4mG1ACGhkxFzshi9uX
B - https://my.pcloud.com/publink/show?code=XZJSjMkZM31xN6XNNQLUMFpM2n1JIfOFz5JX
C - https://my.pcloud.com/publink/show?code=XZzSjMkZwq7RO8YC075OpccE5zhOH8YKW5JV
D - https://my.pcloud.com/publink/show?code=XZ4SjMkZqeEsYmTGEVmi90c5mpKtQL1irwX0
E - https://my.pcloud.com/publink/show?code=XZhSjMkZHiiPvUxp5wS4LQV9eH3a74SKwKkX


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

I wonder if the order people listen in influences their opinions. I've looked for random number/letter generators, but I haven't found one that will limit the letters to A-E or 1-5. Anyone else know of one?


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I'll check this out tomorrow, Matt.


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## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

I just finished listening to all five recordings. I like this overture a lot, so it was a pleasure and never at all tiresome. I own two recordings (none of these) and have seen the whole opera a couple of times, so I'm somewhat familiar with this overture.

Here goes:

A: Apparently live. Woodwinds were close miked - could hear breath at times. Brass and low woodwinds were especially prominent. Beautiful, lush strings. I had the feeling this was a sort of "guide to the orchestra" because of the alternating dominance of woodwinds, strings, and brass. This was impressive but a little distracting and choppy sounding. This playing was just out of this world. The tempi and phrasing were expected.

B: I have never heard so much detail in this piece. There is a discussion going on elsewhere in this forum about Celibidache versus Karajan. Well, this recording is on the Celibidache side of the spectrum. Not Celi slow, but slow. The chordal detail that comes out just blows me away. However, it is dragging and ponderous at times. Beautiful playing; cannot even imagine how much rehearsing it must have taken to get this performance.

C: The word that comes to mind is _smooth_. This conductor and orchestra were not going to wear out the audience before the singing started. Expected tempi and phrasing and the expected sumptuousness of a Wagner composition played by a mainstream orchestra.

D: Live. Fully competent and pleasing, but a little matter-of-fact at times. Quite fast.

E: Really, really interesting! Less sumptuous sound, but a rare kind of intimacy. Happy and sweet at times. Conductor with a light touch. A French take on Wagner? Very nice playing. Relatively fast.

I had no problems with any of these recordings. In fact, I think they're all great. But I'll give this preference ranking:

E, C, B, A, D

Franz


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Listened to 2 today...
Started with E ... despite the lack of background noise, it has the sort of slightly dull sound that I associate with early stereo Bayreuth recordings, seems a bit low key
A ... A much more modern live recording but very reverberant. First reaction is that it was too much 'in your face'

That's it for now, more to come.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

seitzpf said:


> I just finished listening to all five recordings. I like this overture a lot, so it was a pleasure and never at all tiresome. I own two recordings (none of these) and have seen the whole opera a couple of times, so I'm somewhat familiar with this overture.
> 
> Here goes:
> 
> ...


I am struck by your saying it's "never tiresome." That's how I feel about this overture! It always feels evergreen when I start it up. In that way it's like William Tell, Eine Kleine Nachtmusik, Beethoven's 6th, or Sibelius' 7th to me. I just don't tire of it.

I wonder what it is about a piece of music that gives it such a quality. It's not to say that other pieces that I give a rest to are inferior. I love Beethoven's 5th and 9th, or Tchaikovsky's 4th and 5th. But I space out those listenings.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

Thanks for putting this up! I have written down my findings below. It seems that playing this piece right, is not so easy. I didn't read the other reviews before writing down mine. Now that I see the others, I find mine to be quite different.

A Not very exciting, rigid. The orchestra is probably OK. But the playing is incoherent, I miss the flow and the energy. I just wouldn’t listen to this one till the end. 

B Start is better already. The rhythmic pulse however sounds unnatural. This sounds like an older recording. Further down the road it gets better and exciting but it builds up to narrow climaxes. I guess in all the level of playing is much better than 1, but still not coherent enough and too little natural flow to my taste. The end however builds up quite good 

C Even better, rich sound and the rhythmic pulse is OK. A more recent recording. Still, not too exciting and a bit of an old fashioned style for the sound of the recording. But to the end this one slowly builds up to a great climax 

D Right from the beginning, nice dynamics. The many voices are all in place and the rhythmic pulse is natural at last. Transitions are also good. It builds up nicely all the way through, with enough coherence. Agile orchestra. A live performance of only the ouverture, as there is a nanosecond of applause kicking in at the end. This one is my favourite.

E The fastest of the lot. The order of recordings seems to be chronological, as the recordings keep sounding more recent. This one is too fast for my taste, as if a train has to be catched. The dynamics are too flat, so details get lost. 


If you will, my order of preference is D well over C. 

A, B and E are not for me.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

After I finished my listening (truly), I tried to find out which is which with the help of Google. I got a very specific different result for each of the 5 recordings in this comparison. I will PM them to Matthew for a check, as I don't want to spoil things for you here. If Google is right, I have a very (as in VERY) surprising preference.

Great fun, this excercise!


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Ok some general thoughts after listening to these, this morning. Please bear in mind that I have very few recordings of this piece (honestly) so I've winging this one, today.

A - Quite loud and brash at times and, as Becca states, a bit 'in your face' but a decent recording nonetheless.A bit routine in places and lacks enough expression. I'm guessing this one isn't that old and dynamics remind me of a Schumann cycle by an German conductor that polarises opinion.

B - Slower and very stately and grand but nowhere near as slow as someone like Celi (who takes nearer 20 mins to get thru this piece). This is a big orchestra with an older, very meticulous conductor at the helm, who likes to linger in the inner detail. He has them eating out of the palm of his hand but he's not an opera conductor. Very skilled symphonic interpretation but a little too relaxed for me on occasion. However, there is some stunning playing and this is one I could return to often.

C - This is the one for me. It has drama, drive, panache and some incredible playing throughout. Definitely an opera conductor of distinction and an orchestra of great quality. The climax is thrilling and beautifully judged. A keeper. If I havent got this I will be getting it. I may have a punt at this when I PM you, Matt, as it sounds like a conductor I know.

D - Again, this is a very well-drilled orchestra. Interesting recording as there are elements I like here but other things are a little frustrating. The build up is handled very lovingly. Good dynamics on this one but they are sometimes obscured with a bit of congestion but this is down to recording balances and not the ensemble playing.

E - I don't hear any Frenchness in this orchestra (as someone stated). I think they're German but I dont think the conductor is. Almost Russian-sounding interpretation to me. Although taken a bit quickly at times, it's certainly a decent recording but it doesn't have enough to keep my interest. Very capable performance though.

So, having listened to them all I'd say these are all mid-European orchestras (including some of the big hitters). There's no rubbish here and they are all capable recordings or far better but order of preference is.....

C (terrific)
B D (both excellent)
E A (good but not in the same league as the other 3)


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

Went through the first three. Not sure I’ll have time to go through the rest but I’ll try.

A
Pushing constantly. Great momentum. However the pilgrim’s hymn does not sound like a hymn, the Venusberg music in the middle section does not sound beautiful/sensual enough, and it is always risking sounding impatient. The good thing is, the brass towards the end sounds heroic without being over the top.

B
The hymn sounds more like a hymn and the Venusberg music sounds more sensual. However, it is always in danger of losing steam and it does at a few places. The balance of the orchestra shows off the instruments that support the main theme magnificently. 

C
The tempo is more sensible. The hymn sounds more sincere. The Venusberg music sounds polished, and beautifully loud when outputting at full power. Glorious orchestral sound throughout.


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

*Recording/engineering/mastering - *

C.) and A.) are the best of the five - clear separation of orchestral elements - less densely textured - clean and bright recordings.

B..) and E.) are roughly equivalent - tighter more densely textured with a concomitant blending and consequent loss of detail.

D.) live recording - the cough at the :14 second mark is slightly flat - dense texture - detail lost in the tight blend.

*Performance -*

*Unifying the performers and shaping the sound of the ensemble -*

Four of five - A.), B.), C.), and E.) are all first-rate - each has complete control with a light hand on the baton - edge goes to C.)

*Setting the tempo -*

C.) and A.) - superb pacing - strong dynamics - edge goes to A.)

D.) and E.) - slower more stately pacing - less sharply defined dynamics - no real edge to either.

B.) The performance would start on a Tuesday at 8 pm and end sometime early Thursday at about 1:30 in the morning...

*Executing clear preparation and beats -*

Again, the edge would go to C.) and A.) with D.), E.), and B.) following - all are thoroughly professional...

*Shaping the sound of the ensemble - *

Once again, the edge would go to C.) and A.) with D.) and E.) following... B.) needs to keep looking at the score lest he lose his place...

*Controlling the interpretation and pacing of the music itself - *

Yet again, the edge goes to C.) and A.) although I prefer A.) in the category -

D.) and E.) superb craftsmanship -

B.) stopped to ask for directions, decided to have a cup of coffee and a bite to eat at a diner with a neon sign that read "Good Eats", needed to use the restroom and took along a newspaper to help pass the time, finished, came back to the wrong booth at the diner, ate almost half of someone else's "daily special" (it was meat loaf and it wasn't really all that "special"), took twenty minutes trying to make up his mind as to whether he wanted a slice of the apple or the cherry pie, decided to try both, thought the apple was too sweet and the cherry too tart, started flirting with the waitress who was divorced twice and had four kids by four different fathers, lost track of time, completely forgot about the original directions, grabs like two full handfuls of complimentary peppermints at the cashier's station, leaves the diner with someone else's hat, decides to walk off the calories from the two pieces of pie and to use the sun as a compass, realizes far too late that the sun was actually in the west and not the east, decided to sit down by the side of the road, actually witnessed a rube falling off of a turnip truck and expressed amazement that it wasn't just a phrase but that it actually does happen, continued to sit by the side of the road until it became dark, started to get cold, tried to hold back the tears, couldn't, started to cry and feel sorry for himself, a car (gray 15 year old Ford Taurus with all four corners badly dented, horn doesn't work, no side mirrors, no rear view mirror, and every radio station plays nothing but country music) then pulls up and its the waitress that he was flirting with earlier who then decides out of the kindness of her heart and twenty dollars cash to drive him to the conclusion of the overture, he's so grateful to finally reach the end that he gives serious thought to asking the waitress out for dinner and a movie until he suddenly remembers that she was divorced twice and has four kids by four different fathers, wisely decides that he's far too old for that kind of *****, picks up the baton, jumps up and down and completely off the podium half a dozen times, throws back his head, crows like a rooster, wipes his brow, basks in the applause long pass the time when people actually stopped clapping, turns the page and continues with Act One...

*Final order of preference - *

C.)

A.)

B.) and E.) - tied - six of one, half a dozen of the other, eh?

D.)


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Lol, I think Duncan is insinuating that recording B may be a little on the slow side. Hahaha


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Merl said:


> Lol, I think *Duncan* is *insinuating* that recording B may be a little on the slow side. Hahaha


Duncan? Insinuate?? :lol: :lol:


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Well, interest seems to be dying down, so here in white are the "answers." Highlight them to read.

A Karajan BPO 1975
B Klaus Tennstedt BPO 1983
C Solti VPO 1962
D Christian Theilemann Muncher Pilharmoniker c.2005
E Marek Janowski Rundfunk Sinfonieorchester Berlin 2016


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

As I mentioned, I checked with Google yesterday and they were only right in 2 out of 5 cases, Tennstedt and Solti. The funny thing is that my favourite (D) was identified by Google as Otto Gerdes, which was very surprising to me. But it turned out to be Thielemann.

I am happy with my ears. Pity that Thielemann didn't record Tannhauser yet, I would sure be interested. But with Solti on my second spot, I can also live for now. Again a confirmation for the modern sound of the Decca Culshaw recordings! 

Nice choice, Matthew, thanks for arranging it


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I nailed Solti thru spotting it was the VPO (thanks Google for helping me with the conductor) and I've got the Tennstedt. Wasn't too far out on the others barring Karajan. There's a few better versions of the Tannhauser Overture around by Karajan. I just thought that one was a bit 'vulgar' for him. As I said, they were all good but the Solti really did resonate with me. Not bad for a 1962 recording. I played the Tennstedt a few weeks ago but I still didn't recognise it straight away. Lol. Nice one, Matt.


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

MatthewWeflen said:


> I wonder if the order people listen in influences their opinions. I've looked for random number/letter generators, but I haven't found one that will limit the letters to A-E or 1-5. Anyone else know of one?


Here's one:









Assume A=1, B=2 and so on, and you're good to go.


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

Duplicate post... see below... Note to self - try to refrain from writing six different posts on six different threads at three different forums whilst talking on the phone during a conference call at the same time...


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

B.) was Klaus Tennstedt, eh?... Reckon I'm not a charter member of the "Klausketeers"...



Duncan said:


> B.) The performance would start on a Tuesday at 8 pm and end sometime early Thursday at about 1:30 in the morning...


Despite the rave reviews I never really cared all that much for his Mahler 8th either... If I had to pick my top 5 his would finish like 11th or maybe 18th if I was in a particularly bad mood that day...

I remember reading in Gramophone that during the recording of the 8th Jane Eaglen kept shouting "For Christ's sake, Klaus, pick up the pace, eh? - At this rate it'll take two f*ckin' weeks to get from "Veni, Creator Spiritus" to "Alles Vergängliche"... And Tennstedt would just laugh - he thought Eaglen was hilarious and he would wind her up by slowing down the tempi intentionally just to get a rise out of her...

Strange but true...


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## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

Thanks again for this, Matt. One take-away for me is that I’m going to try more Marek Janowski.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

seitzpf said:


> Thanks again for this, Matt. One take-away for me is that I'm going to try more Marek Janowski.


Check out his Schumann and Brahms symphony cycles. His Schumann is excellent but his Brahms is terrific. The 4th is one of the best I own.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

seitzpf said:


> Thanks again for this, Matt. One take-away for me is that I'm going to try more Marek Janowski.


The Janowski is what inspired the comparison. One of my quarantine purchases was this collection of Wagner excerpts from HDTracks.









I listened to it over my good headphones and was quite impressed.

https://www.hdtracks.com/wagner-overtures-preludes-orchestral-excerpts

HDTracks is running a 25% site wide discount presently (and for two more days I believe).

I believe my ranking would be:
Tie - A Karajan BPO 1975
Tie - E Marek Janowski Rundfunk Sinfonieorchester Berlin 2016

3 C Solti VPO 1962
4 D Christian Theilemann Muncher Pilharmoniker c.2005
5 B Klaus Tennstedt BPO 1983

I also found them to be all quite good, though. Each offers good qualities for listening.


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