# Interest Check For Two Possible New TC Lists



## Guest (Mar 28, 2014)

So, as many have expressed in the past, we could cover a few more areas with the extremely helpful TC Top Recommended Lists, including song cycles, wind chamber works, etc. As these lists were very helpful to me in the beginning stages of my classical fandom (and I still reference them once in a while now, out of curiosity), I can attest to the usefulness of such threads. However, I think some "genres" are more practical than others (art songs would be an odd cluster of piano/voice vs. orchestra/voice, etc...maybe not practical). Either way, I'd like to discuss the potential creation of two new lists using this thread.

Proposing these:
The TC Top 50 Recommended Organ Works
The TC Top 100 Recommended Chamber Works For Two Players (or 50)

The latter one would encompass cello sonatas, violin sonatas, clarinet sonatas, etc...the only flaw with that one that I see would be a debate over whether or not piano, four hands works would be allowed.

I'd be more than willing to be the one to tally up results, if no one else wants to. I'm also open to discussion on weighting systems, but I don't see a huge problem with a simple system, as most people aren't subscribing completely to some list on the internet anyway.

I understand the "fatigue" with "list-o-mania", but 1) I enjoy lists, so whatever, and 2) as mentioned above, these lists can be very helpful to new classical fans.

Thoughts?


----------



## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

I'd throw my two cents in! Seem like great ideas for lists to me.


----------



## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

Yeah, looks like a great idea - organ works deserve a separate list. How about another list for Cantatas?


----------



## Sofronitsky (Jun 12, 2011)

I think organ works should be more like 75-100 and two person chamber music should be more like 25-50 but I like the ideas very much


----------



## pjang23 (Oct 8, 2009)

I could contribute to chamber duos or art songs. I'd recommend including piano four hands to chamber duos, since it was left out of the solo piano list.


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Chamber works for two people includes violin sonatas, cello sonatas, flute sonatas, clarinet sonatas, etc., right? 

If so, I figure that list'd better be at least 50, maybe 75 or 100, if we do it. 

And we should decide whether to include or exclude works for piano 4-hands in this category. I would include them.... We should no doubt explicitly exclude the human voice. 

Totally on a different track, maybe someday we can do a list of works for solo instruments excluding keyboard - things like Bach's Sonatas and Partitas for solo violin, Bach's Cello Suites, Kodály's Sonata for solo cello, Paganini's Caprices, Ysaÿe's Sonatas for solo violin, all those guitar and lute works, etc.


----------



## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Count me in for this too.


----------



## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

I believe that "recommended lists" are useful tools for beginners and intermediates (and sometimes people who know to much!) when coming and reading up on a subject and it surprises me some what what there is not already an Organ RL! So go for it..

/ptr


----------



## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

I would also contribute to a chamber duo (and an art song) list


----------



## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

arcaneholocaust said:


> Proposing these:
> The TC Top 50 Recommended Organ Works
> The TC Top 100 Recommended Chamber Works* For Two Players (or 50)*


Definitely two. 50 performers is a bit much for a chamber work.



arcaneholocaust said:


> However, I think some "genres" are more practical than others (art songs would be an odd cluster of piano/voice vs. orchestra/voice, etc...maybe not practical).


I don't see why that should be considered an odd cluster or impractical. You could more than Concertos could be considered an odd cluster of various solo instruments (piano, strings, winds) spread out across hundreds of years. Any list is going to have variety.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Art song, the most traditional as voice and piano, is a genre / category of its own. I would urge you not to make a 'mistake' by including it in chamber music. It is its own, and there is a ton of literature just within that genre. It is already a set and standard separate category outside of 'chamber music.'

Once again, maybe going to a few good music dictionaries might save twelve pages of TC thread discussion about what the nature of the damned beast is.


----------



## julianoq (Jan 29, 2013)

I loved the suggestions, specially the "Chamber Works For Two Player" one. I am a fan of cello/violin with piano sonatas and also a heavy user of TC Top lists, and I miss this list a lot.


----------



## Guest (Mar 28, 2014)

Sounds like I should go for these. Organ works, chamber duos, and songs. Few questions for you all before proceeding:

1) Should songs be limited to voice and piano or should the same list include voice/piano, voice/orchestra, and whatever else works as an art song/lieder/melodie/etc?

2) Does anyone have any ideas on a solid weighting system, or will the standard "#1 gets X points, #2 gets X-1 points, #3 gets X-2 points, and so on" system be enough? I think so, as I think it's more important to get a roughly ranked list of great works out there than to labor over weighting accuracies. 

3) I haven't seen all of the threads that were used to generate the past lists...should each poster simply submit a top 10 or 20, or is there any reason to support every poster submitting 25/50/100 items (depending on the # of items designated for the final list)?

Unless people have disagreements over these small issues, we shall begin soon


----------



## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

arcaneholocaust said:


> Sounds like I should go for these. Organ works, chamber duos, and songs. Few questions for you all before proceeding:
> 
> 1) Should songs be limited to voice and piano or should the same list include voice/piano, voice/orchestra, and whatever else works as an art song/lieder/melodie/etc?
> 
> ...


Concerning your no. 2, I have no problem with it; I used it not long ago. However, statistical nerds on the board took offense to it.


----------



## pjang23 (Oct 8, 2009)

I agree with doing a separate list for songs.

1. I think including orchestral lieder is a good idea, and it should be complementary to our choral project. From the choral thread:



Air said:


> This vocal list is intended for everything non-lied. _Basically, use your own discretion._ If you really don't know, feel free to ask the rest of us. Most part-songs, madrigals, organa (such as those by Pérotin), Hildegard's _Ordo Virtutum_, Gregorian chant ... these are not closely related to lieder, so they are included. In short, everything that one could consider "choral music", whether smaller or larger scale, does the trick. Most duets, some trios, liederspiel, liturgical songs, etc... these generally lean more towards the lied category, and will be included on the next (other) vocal list.
> 
> Maybe a few additional days before we begin in order to consider part-songs, madrigals, Medieval works, etc. as well. 100 is pretty much a given now... and depending on the circumstances, we may even have to expand the list further.
> 
> What do you all think?


2&3. We normally do a two-step voting process and build up the list 10 works at a time. This allows people to continually review works as the project goes along instead of voting for everything in one shot.

First round is the nomination round where people can nominate up to 10 works. The top 10 works from the nomination round become the next 10 works on the list, though their final ordering is determined by the second round.

Second round is the voting round, where people vote for their five favorites of the top 10 works from the first round. This is so that all voters can have input in the final order.

As for the weightings, this was the one from the Orchestral Project:



Trout said:


> (This post is for those of you curious on the vote counting method.)
> 
> Nomination round scoring:
> 
> ...


Also, at the end of the project we like to keep a list of honorable mentions containing every work that was nominated but didn't make the final list. Hence in the very last nomination round we give people 20 votes instead of 10.


----------



## Guest (Mar 29, 2014)

Wow, thanks pjang! Exactly what I was looking for  No chance you wanna head up this thing instead of me, eh? 

Edit: Of course, I will be happy to, especially now that you've contributed those insights, but yeah, just figured, you, Trout, etc. have done these kinds of things before.


----------



## pjang23 (Oct 8, 2009)

I'll do one if you'll do one.  We could consider doing two at once. I could facilitate chamber duos or lieder but not organ.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

arcaneholocaust said:


> 1) Should songs be limited to voice and piano or should the same list include voice/piano, voice/orchestra, and whatever else works as an art song/lieder/melodie/etc?


I would recommend this being any and all art song. Berlioz' Nuits d'ete and many of Mahler's songs known to most as being with chamber orchestra or orchestral accompaniment were first for voice and piano, Ditto some of the Ravel songs / song cycles. There are songs by Kurtag for voice and smaller chamber ensembles. Maybe draw the line that the songs should be orchestrated by the composer (though without checking I'm not sure where that would leave some of the Moussorsgky song cycles which were voice and piano and are also orchestrated) -- mainly thinking in the negative, for example, that I would not think the hundreds(?) of orchestrations of Schubert's _Ave Maria_ would be very helpful 

The songs could be listed, the original setting noted, later orchestrations additional info.

Overall, I think 'art song' regardless of the accompaniment is a good choice. It would be sad to not have, to name but a few, Mahler's _Das Lied von der Erde_, Lucas Foss' _Time Cycle_, Canteloube's _Songs of the Auvergne_, or Varese's _Offrandes_ not on that list due to a technicality about the genre of their accompaniment.

I don't think the accompaniment of voice and piano and /or other would make for that many listings which would confuse. It is all art song.


----------



## Guest (Mar 29, 2014)

pjang23 said:


> I'll do one if you'll do one.  We could consider doing two at once. I could facilitate chamber duos or lieder but not organ.




Wanna handle the songs and I'll do the chamber duos? I'm nervous I'll make some bad rules for songs (cycles only? idk!). But yeah, those guidelines Trout posted look good. And I see no reason not to do a couple at once, especially when they could be on different subforums.

What were the nomination/voting periods like for these? Week? Two weeks? I hope it's not a 5 month project  but oh well, if it is, I still am interested in developing a list.

And of course, I assume the 1st voting period could coincide with the 2nd nomination period so as not to waste time?


----------



## pjang23 (Oct 8, 2009)

I'll be happy to do songs. I think putting the threads in the main discussion forum works better, as it will maximize visibility. 
*
Do you guys want to do two lists at once, or one at a time?*

Each round is 48 hours, though I recommend an extra day or two on the first nomination round to get some more people in. You can see Trout's example here. Hence, Top 50 would take 20 days and Top 100 would take 40 days. I think starting the thread as "Top 50+" is a good idea. If participation is still strong at 50 (pretty likely), then move on to 100 and so on. I don't recommend rushing, since it would give people less time to listen.

Also, we should finalize our criteria for the chamber duos. I think we've decided on:
1. Works should include two performers
2. Vocal works are excluded
3. Works for one piano four hands are included


----------



## Guest (Mar 29, 2014)

Agreed on all counts.

I'm ok with two lists at once, but perhaps I'm biased, so yeah, perhaps a couple other opinions before we start. Of course, rounds could be extended to 3 or 4 days to accommodate if necessary. Any more thoughts?


----------



## pjang23 (Oct 8, 2009)

Criteria for songs are a bit trickier. I'm thinking:
1. The work must primarily feature solo vocal parts. Any type accompaniment is allowed. Arrangements by other composers are not included.
2. Choral works and other types of works included in the TC Choral Project (e.g. part-songs, madrigals, organa (such as those by Pérotin), Hildegard's Ordo Virtutum, Gregorian chant) are not eligible.
3. Songs should be nominated individually (or by opus?) unless part of a song cycle or collection

For criteria 3, we need to decide if we should nominate non-song-cycles by opus number or individually (e.g. Faure - Clair de Lune Op.46 No.2). The latter will be more challenging, but more informative.


----------



## Guest (Mar 29, 2014)

Well, do Brahms' Four Serious Songs count as a song cycle? Because that's one example I wouldn't want to separate. Schubert songs, on the other hand, that are frequently separated...yeah...sounds tricky.

Edit: I think some level of discretion can be allowed without blowing everything - for instance, in our current keyboard list, Bach works are not split up, while Chopin works are.


----------



## Selby (Nov 17, 2012)

Art songs is a great idea. I am really, really into it.


----------



## pjang23 (Oct 8, 2009)

Yeah, the Four Serious Songs are typically considered a cycle. I agree with some discretion if the works are typically grouped as a collection (e.g. Debussy's Fetes Galantes).


----------



## Guest (Mar 29, 2014)

Oh, well, in that case maybe just separate the non-cycles


----------



## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Does Pierrot lunaire count, or is is to be collected with other chamber music?


----------



## pjang23 (Oct 8, 2009)

Yes, Pierrot Lunaire is included.


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Are we including or excluding religious music (masses, Te Deums, etc.)?


----------



## pjang23 (Oct 8, 2009)

Choral works like masses and Te Deums are not included. Gregorian chants, part songs, madrigals, and organa were done in the choral project and are not included in songs.

Do you have any works in mind that may be ambiguous? Songs which set religious texts can be considered, though they should be primarily written for concert performance rather than for religious service.


----------

