# A question about breeches roles



## obwan (Oct 24, 2011)

Why do directors insist on casting/staging the Sesto's and Cherubino's as effeminately as possible?
Its one thing to have a woman playing a man, that isn't supposed to just be a woman playing a man, but actually is a man. Is it too much to ask for short hair and masculine clothing? Perhaps an incognito corsette to minimize bust size?

I'm looking for a youtube of Sesto's parto aria to show my brother to get him hooked on opera. He doesn't enjoy classical music, but he appreciated mozarts clarinete quintet and clarinete trio that I sent him a while ago. (He used to play the clarinette). 

Does anyone know of any fully staged youtube videos of sesto's aria with clarinette obligato that won't require me explaining that one of the chics is actually a dude?

The met live in hd would be excelent, but so far I've only seen 2 minute clips. (That was such an awsome production btw)


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

obwan said:


> Why do directors insist on casting/staging the Sesto's and Cherubino's as effeminately as possible?


To make them look like castrati? I'd look pretty effeminate too if someone hack off my gonads! :lol:

_(Just joking as supposedly Consolino had many lovers!)_


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Here is a Sesto from Giulio Cesare who looks like a boy:










Which considering how gorgeous she is in real life is quite an achievement.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

obwan said:


> Why do directors insist on casting/staging the Sesto's and Cherubino's as effeminately as possible?
> Its one thing to have a woman playing a man, that isn't supposed to just be a woman playing a man, but actually is a man. Is it too much to ask for short hair and masculine clothing? Perhaps an incognito corsette to minimize bust size?


This isn't the opera essay thread, but I wanted to mention three books I have on exactly the topic of women performing _en travesti_ in operas:

_En Travesti: Women, Gender Subversion, Opera_
_Siren Songs: Representations of Gender and Sexuality in Opera_
_Voicing Gender: Castrati, Travesti, and the Second Woman in Early-Nineteenth-Century Italian Opera_

If anyone is interested, I can briefly review these here.


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## obwan (Oct 24, 2011)

Yes that would be excellent please do.

Oh and here's a thought to ponder? 

Would it be that big of a sin to actually rewrite some of the castrato parts for tenor or bass? Mozart re-wrote Idamante as a tenor, and considered rewriting Idomeno (from Tenor) as a bass.


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## obwan (Oct 24, 2011)

mamascarlatti, you forgot to tell us who she is? Is she singing Sesto in the met's Jusius Caesar?


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

obwan said:


> mamascarlatti, you forgot to tell us who she is? Is she singing Sesto in the met's Jusius Caesar?


She's the lovely Isabel Leonard. I'm not sure what she is doing right now, but she was recently in the Tempest at the Met:










The Sesto role in the picture comes from this 2011 production from Paris:


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

obwan said:


> Yes that would be excellent please do.
> 
> Oh and here's a thought to ponder?
> 
> Would it be that big of a sin to actually rewrite some of the castrato parts for tenor or bass? Mozart re-wrote Idamante as a tenor, and considered rewriting Idomeno (from Tenor) as a bass.


It was standard practice in olden times (as in the 50's and 60's) for basses and tenors to sing the Händel heros. Fritz Wunderlich sang Xerxes, and the old Peters score of Giulio Cesare lists Cesare as a bass. So it's not unheard of. But I don't think you'll be getting away with it today. 
The parts were written for castrati in the first place, because of the dominant aesthetic of super-high male voices being 'noble' and 'brave' at the time. The bass and tenor voices had other qualities.

EDIT: And Isabel Leonard is presumably in rehearsal for the Met Barbiere.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> She's the lovely Isabel Leonard. I'm not sure what she is doing right now, but she was recently in the Tempest at the Met:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks mamascarlatti! This DVD is not available on Amazon.com, but I was able to just order it for US delivery from Amazon.co.uk. Very odd.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

obwan said:


> Yes that would be excellent please do.


OK. Busy weekend, but will do beginning of next week.



obwan said:


> Oh and here's a thought to ponder?
> 
> Would it be that big of a sin to actually rewrite some of the castrato parts for tenor or bass? Mozart re-wrote Idamante as a tenor, and considered rewriting Idomeno (from Tenor) as a bass.


I think that would change everything. In opera, voice types reflect character attributes. Change the voice type, but not the libretti, role, or behavior, and you'd introduce inconsistency.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Aksel said:


> It was standard practice in olden times (as in the 50's and 60's) for basses and tenors to sing the Händel heros. Fritz Wunderlich sang Xerxes, and the old Peters score of Giulio Cesare lists Cesare as a bass. So it's not unheard of. But I don't think you'll be getting away with it today.


Which is why some of us go hunting down those old recordings from the '50s and '60s.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

MAuer said:


> Which is why some of us go hunting down those old recordings from the '50s and '60s.


Personally, I find this sort of grotesque changing of voice types (i.e., from castrato to bass) much worse than changing the staging (re: _Regieoper_).


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

I find nothing grotesque in Wunderlich's Ruggiero on my recording of _Alcina_ (with Joan Sutherland in the title role).


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

MAuer said:


> I find nothing grotesque in Wunderlich's Ruggiero on my recording of _Alcina_ (with Joan Sutherland in the title role).


And if different parts are transposed for different voice types, why not transpose all the roles? Why not make that up to the director? Not only can a director choose the staging, but they can also choose who will play the parts and what will get transposed to make that fit? Would that not be grotesque? If they can transpose one role, why not all of them?


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

We had this debate once before here, and no one changed their opinions in consequence. I don't like hearing countertenors or mezzos in the roles of male characters, and will continue to purchase recordings where these roles are sung by tenors, or possibly baritones, instead. You find this sort of thing grotesque, and are perfectly free to avoid such recordings and to purchase ones that suit your tastes.


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