# Cinematic moments in Wagner's Ring -



## Anselm (Feb 24, 2011)

which to me is the greatest film score ever written, by several light years. You can just see inimitably sublime, inexorably powerful music directing the camera. _Götterdämmerung_, for instance: at the end of Act I scene 1 the chirpy music gradually fades as we see Siegfried and Gunther sailing into the distance up the Rhine so that the former can win Brünnhilde for the latter. Suddenly that baleful chord, with the "Hagen" tritone so ferociously in the low brass instruments, snaps the camera back to a closeup of Hagen's hate-filled yet triumphant face glaring after them. (I can just see a younger version of John Noble as Denethor in _Lord of the Rings_.)

*Question*: what other such purely cinematic moments in the _Ring_ can you think of? (One at a time, please - no crowding, people - there's more than enough for everyone!!!)

Another question: Would you give me a paltry £250 million to make the film(s)? _Pleeeeeease?_ Whoever would direct such a project, I would insist as part of the contract that the credit for director be Richard Wagner, because his music just does it all. All the camera operator has to do is to point in the direction and at the zoom that that incredible score tells them to.


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## macgeek2005 (Apr 1, 2006)

Which video production are you describing in your first paragraph?

Opera is not a cinematic art. Cinematic aspects enter the equation when you film a production of an opera, but opera is a live theater art form.

I too enjoy the cinematic aspects of the DVD productions I have, but they are not cinematic aspects of the opera per se. They are cinematic aspects of that particular production only.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

macgeek2005 said:


> Which video production are you describing in your first paragraph?
> 
> Opera is not a cinematic art. Cinematic aspects enter the equation when you film a production of an opera, but opera is a live theater art form.
> 
> I too enjoy the cinematic aspects of the DVD productions I have, but they are not cinematic aspects of the opera per se. They are cinematic aspects of that particular production only.


I think Anselm is thinking of making a movie with the same story, which has been done for other operas - I'm not talking of filmed opera (like the Salome movie, for instance, which has the full opera with the full score and operatic singers as actors), I'm talking of _bona fide_ films that use the same story of an opera (like a recent Don Giovanni movie which, I repeat, is not filmed opera) or at least have the same source material that was also used in an opera, like Hollywood versions of Carmen, Tristan und Isolde, etc. that contain no singing, just actors and actresses playing the characters. There are even cartoons of operas, like a children's abriged version of The Cunning Little Vixen. In general, these efforts fall flat, so I don't think it's a particularly good idea, but I don't think his/her idea is not a valid one.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

macgeek2005 said:


> Which video production are you describing in your first paragraph?
> .


It's the one in Anselm's imagination. Nothing wrong with that.



> Opera is not a cinematic art. Cinematic aspects enter the equation when you film a production of an opera, but opera is a live theater art form.


Nonetheless there are some great films of operas. My favourite is Rosi's Carmen, which is still my favourite video version of that opera.

I think the OP is trying to say that The Ring would lend itself to cinematic treatment and could someone finance him to make it.

I'm willing to buy him some Lego.


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## Anselm (Feb 24, 2011)

Mamascarlatti, you've hit the anvil on the head. It was indeed a film of the _Ring_, the whole _Ring_ and nothing but the _Ring_ that I was thinking of. All 16 hours. Every note - including the sung bits.

I think macgeek2005's right in general about opera being a non-cinematic art form, but to me late Wagner (i.e. _Rheingold_ onwards) is a glorious exception, for three reasons:


The fact that the words of the _Ring's_ text are not repeated, as they usually were before him, but are sung straight through, making their delivery much more naturalistic. (Of course, this also applies to post-Wagnerian opera, including late Verdi and Puccini.)
The related point that the music closely follows and reflects these words, and consequently the drama, rather than adhering to purely musical forms - not that there's anything wrong with that, but I think it's a powerful element in macgeek2007's perception. More specifically, the music directs our attention to closeups and long shots, as in the last scene of the first act of _Die Walküre_, where the camera would simply follow the music closer to the faces of Siegmund and Sieglinde, before a long shot of him jumping up, advancing to the tree and pulling out the sword.
Closely related to the previous point, there are those many and lengthy musical transitions between scenes in _Rheingold_, from the one connecting the first two scenes of _Rheingold_ to Siegfried's Funeral March, all of which have tremendous cinematic possibilities - just imagine that imperceptible transformation from the dark, downward-rushing water to clouds in the _Rheingold_ example, and compare it to the lighting of the beacons in _Lord of the Rings - Return of the King_. The cinematic possibilities relate, of course, to the associations of the musical motives, which can be much more flexibly and subtly suggested on screen than on stage. Rather than being just cinematic titillation, the camerawork would subtly - always subtly! - reflect the motives sounding at any given point in such transitions, in such a way as to strengthen the structure of the whole film.

I really can see the whole thing as a film (well, 10, actually - one for each act and one for _Rheingold_), and am perfectly serious about you giving me £250 million to do it. (C'mon people, what's £250 million between music-lovers?) As a staunch Wagnerian, I promise I won't spend it on that yacht in the Bahamas I've been hankering after for so long now!

Here's another taster:

The sensitive intercutting between Siegfried's face as he emerges from the fire at the beginning of the final scene of _Siegfried_, its stupifaction so wonderfully expressed in that rapt music, and the awful (in the original sense: "awe-ful") scene of the warrior - as he first thinks it is - asleep on the glowing mountaintop as dusk melds into night, using several camera angles such as a view of him, in sharp focus, against the fire behind him, with Brünnhilde, seen with her head closest to the camera, out of focus in the foreground. (For my money, that's the most beautiful music Wagner ever wrote.)

PS - Love the Lego _Ring_, mamascarlatti, especially the music from the first two operas to accompany the last two. Wouldn't do too well on the sensitive closeups, though! Mind you, with the price of that stuff these days, I wouldn't need too many bags of it to do [Rheingold[/I], at least. :lol:


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

Don't mention that clown near me, he ruined Denethor forever! That guy used to be _badass_ in the book! Although his Brünnhilde reenactment went worse than expected.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Anselm said:


> I really can see the whole thing as a film (well, 10, actually - one for each act and one for _Rheingold_), and am perfectly serious about you giving me £250 million to do it. (C'mon people, what's £250 million between music-lovers?) As a staunch Wagnerian, I promise I won't spend it on that yacht in the Bahamas I've been hankering after for so long now!


I hope you get your $250 million, you're obvously as keen as mustard and brimming with ideas. I'm afraid it won't be from me as I've spent avery penny I've got on opera DVDs.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

OK, sure, I'll give you 250 million pounds. Give me your bank account number with router number. I'll need the ID and password for your online banking as well, please, and while we are at it, please also give me your social security number, date of birth, street address, and zip code. Oh, and you'll need to wire a downpayment of $25,000 to my account in Nigeria for my wiring expenses before I can send you the 250 million, OK? Deal?

The 250 million will be yours as soon as I receive the $25,000.:devil:


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## macgeek2005 (Apr 1, 2006)

I apologize, I was confused by the original post. I thought that you had been watching a particular production, and thought that that production was somehow the only one, and that The Ring was a film of sorts, haha. I understand what you're saying now, and I agree!


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## AmericanGesamtkunstwerk (May 9, 2011)

I mean the only reason Wagner wasn't a filmmaker in the first place is because he was around in the 19th century. the moving image makes Wagner's understanding of gesamkuntswerk obsolete.

dreaming of the effective theatric experience of Der Ring Des Cinema made with about $400 million dollars (my version is 400 mil) is obvious, and great. BUT the live organic different-every-night THEATER of the thing would be lost (unless I went into explaining my seed of an idea about conducting pictures and a film being different every night, but that would be a Whole 'Nother Thing, and i'm only partially sure its technologically viable for my generation).

I'd actually say to do Four films. why would ~4-5 hour movies be unacceptable? My version is pretty special effects laden (though I do not have moving storyboards developed like the OP). we could performance-capture the singers to make them Giants, or a dragon. We would not Just use the image end of performance-capture, but we'd incorporate a vocal reading to influence the images (such as Lepage's das rheingold technology). Valkyries riding on flying horses? how about _flying horses on screen_, literally.

As much locations as possible. Scandinavia, Germany.

a conductor, casting, some of the design staff, and possibly some funding come directly from the major Wagner houses such as beyreuth the met etc.. (as far as strictly-music we'd have an entirely original and worthy rendering of the material)

LOVE LOVE LOVE the idea listing "Richard Wagner" as the director.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

Inflammatory opinion incoming: One could shorten the movies a bit, I think, in that (since the librettos were written in reverse order) the later operas in the cycle consist of plenty of exposition about what happened before that could be trimmed in order to make the run times less intimidating. If you're watching the movies in order, you don't necessarily need loads of explanation as to what happened in the previous opera in the cycle.
Wish I could remember where I read it, but this idea is certainly not original with me. I got it from some opera book or other, of which the main gist was that Wagner (in the author's view) should have had revised versions of the ring operas for when they are performed on consecutive nights ala Bayreuth, thus alleviating the need for extraneous exposition, and have the standard versions when they are performed days/weeks/months apart, ala the Met's ring.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

rgz said:


> shorten... Wagner...


BLASPHEMY :devil:
I think the typical Bayreuth crowd are the _last_ ones who would want the operas shortened...


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

rgz said:


> Inflammatory opinion incoming: One could shorten the movies a bit, I think, in that (since the librettos were written in reverse order) the later operas in the cycle consist of plenty of exposition about what happened before that could be trimmed in order to make the run times less intimidating. If you're watching the movies in order, you don't necessarily need loads of explanation as to what happened in the previous opera in the cycle.
> Wish I could remember where I read it, but this idea is certainly not original with me. I got it from some opera book or other, of which the main gist was that Wagner (in the author's view) should have had revised versions of the ring operas for when they are performed on consecutive nights ala Bayreuth, thus alleviating the need for extraneous exposition, and have the standard versions when they are performed days/weeks/months apart, ala the Met's ring.


Oh! My! God! 
I'm sure Natalie Dessay wouldn't agree  with this betrayal of a major - and rather perfect - work like Wagner's Ring.
I don't mind the exposition at all - it is all backed by fabulous music and evolving leitmotives.
Maybe the Ring could be improved upon, but just barely. Siegfried could use some shortening of the first and second acts, and some female voices there, rather than just the forest bird. But that's about it. The Ring is a rather perfect work. Let's not fix what is not broken!


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## FragendeFrau (May 30, 2011)

I used to dream of this myself years ago while listening to Walkure. And then again, after seeing the LePage production. I got to the Todesverkundigung and was thinking, it's the freaking ANGEL OF DEATH!! You've gotta do something better than just standing downstage from Siegmund! Of course, the music and the singers are all you need, but still.

That production needed a director of actors and more than the flipping strip of apron for them to work on! /rant


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