# Thought provoking article about police tactics in NY city



## Scarpia (Jul 21, 2010)

Why Is the N.Y.P.D. After Me?


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## Taneyev (Jan 19, 2009)

Because USA is comming very fast a fascist state, and the police is his first task force to punish and eventualy eliminate "inferior" people, nazi style.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

There have always been plenty of criminals and jerks in police departments. Our own former police chief was arrested for drunk driving. Just to the west of here in Rochester, NY an officer was convicted for offering leniency to female speeders in exchange for roadside sexual favors. His boss who was aware of the activities was convicted as well.

As far as fascism is concerned, most law enforcement agencies are right leaning organizations. Especially the FBI. With today's surveillance technologies serving the ultra corporate culture, the encroaching police state is inevitable.


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## Scarpia (Jul 21, 2010)

starthrower said:


> There have always been plenty of criminals and jerks in police departments. Our own former police chief was arrested for drunk driving. Just to the west of here in Rochester, NY an officer was convicted for offering leniency to female speeders in exchange for roadside sexual favors. His boss who was aware of the activities was convicted as well.


Unscrupulous people who become police officers is a persistent problem. I think the story disturbing because this policy is sanctioned at the highest level. Even more disturbing is that the public approves the policy (which I think goes back to Mayor Giuliani, as part of his "quality of life" initiative). Even in a democracy, the majority should not be able to approve the denial of civil rights to a minority. The question in my mind is are we doing enough to protect against "mob rule" or "the tyranny of the majority."


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Strange things (strange to me) seem to happen a lot in cities. This racial profiling and the attendant persecution helps explain the low level tension a black acquaintance told me he - and the black people he knows - feel in routine situations on the streets and in the stores of Brattleboro Vermont. Population ~11,000. He was raised in St. Thomas, V.I., but most of his friends came to Vermont from the cities of the Northeast.

This tension, low level or otherwise, is often expressed in body language. It is subconsciously recognized by people in the vicinity, and can result in a feedback loop analogous to what happens when a loudspeaker and a microphone 'get together'. Profiling must make that feedback loop even stronger, and police reaction even more likely. What to do? I don't know.


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

I don't believe in "corrupt cops" because good cops/bad cops is a false dichotomy that implies everything would be fine if all cops were nice. We have for-profit rape dungeons with no proven rehabilitative properties, and we call that "justice". The system itself is ethically bankrupt, and police can either reflect this (this is common because it's a career that attracts overgrown bullies, overcompensators and wounded egos) or, by some miracle of character, try to reconcile their career with being a decent person. This is a pointless negotiation, though, like an executioner who forces himself to pity his victim. 

I am glad the public is coming to distrust the police more and more. The only place I like to see a cop is in an obituary.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

^ I concur, we should go back to the system of cutting off hands, pillories, hangings, etc.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

regressivetransphobe said:


> victim.
> 
> The only place I like to see a cop is in an obituary.


That's a pretty stupid remark. My step son is a cop. He's a good, honest man. Police officers are people like everyone else. There are good and bad people in any profession.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

regressivetransphobe said:


> I am glad the public is coming to distrust the police more and more. The only place I like to see a cop is in an obituary.


Honestly, you need to go and live somewhere where there are no cops. As Steven Pinker writes in his book"The Blank Slate":



> As a young teenager in proudly peaceable Canada during the romantic 1960s, I was a true believer in Bakunin's anarchism. I laughed off my parents' argument that if the government ever laid down its arms all hell would break loose. Our competing predictions were put to the test at 8:00 A.M. on October 17, 1969, when the Montreal police went on strike. By 11:20 A.M. the first bank was robbed. By noon most downtown stores had closed because of looting. Within a few more hours, taxi drivers burned down the garage of a limousine service that competed with them for airport customers, a rooftop sniper killed a provincial police officer, rioters broke into several hotels and restaurants, and a doctor slew a burglar in his suburban home. By the end of the day, six banks had been robbed, a hundred shops had been looted, twelve fires had been set, forty carloads of storefront glass had been broken, and three million dollars in property damage had been inflicted, before city authorities had to call in the army and, of course, the Mounties to restore order.


Of course there are corrupt cops, but I'm glad they are there.


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## Scarpia (Jul 21, 2010)

starthrower said:


> That's a pretty stupid remark. My step son is a cop. He's a good, honest man. Police officers are people like everyone else. There are good and bad people in any profession.


Quite so. The number of deranged statements appearing on this thread is at least as disturbing as the original story.


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## Lunasong (Mar 15, 2011)

This is an excerpt from a book written in 1992, so times are not changing:

_If you are black and young and a man, the arrival of the police does not usually signify help, but something very different. If you are a teenager simply socializing with some friends, the police may order you to disperse and get off the streets. They may turn on a searchlight, order you against a wall. Then comes the command to spread your legs and empty out your pockets, and stand splayed there while they call in your identity over their radio.

You may be a college student and sing in a church choir, but that will not overcome the police presumption that you have probably done something they can arrest you for._ 
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19920511&slug=1491176

In my town it is well-known that you can be pulled over for DWB (driving while black).


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Yeah, it's good to live in a world where the police serve the people.

Not all of us live in that world, so we have to take that into consideration.


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## Guest (Dec 19, 2011)

I like how everybody piled onto regressive transphobe - granted his statement was pretty dumb - when it merely seemed to be the logical progression of the previous comments up to that point. After all, fascists are bad, aren't they, and should be done away with? Or are fascists good? Starthrower - you talked about the connection between cops and fascism, and listed the evils committed by cops. Tell me, do you lump your stepson in that group - or is it only "other" cops?

RT's comments were indeed stupid - but in the context of this thread, they don't really stand out. One uncorroborated account by a single individual in an opinion piece in the NYT, and you all start in with your various "cops are bad" memes, and then get upset when someone takes those arguments to their logical conclusion?


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## Scarpia (Jul 21, 2010)

DrMike said:


> RT's comments were indeed stupid - but in the context of this thread, they don't really stand out. One uncorroborated account by a single individual in an opinion piece in the NYT, and you all start in with your various "cops are bad" memes, and then get upset when someone takes those arguments to their logical conclusion?


This is not "one uncorroborated account by a single individual." Racial profiling is a documented fact for many police departments (including the New Jersey State Police, in a highly publicized case). Being a suspect by default is also widely reported by ethnic minorities in the US. We also have new immigration laws in Arizona and Alabama which empower law enforcement to put someone in jail if they "appear" to be illegal aliens and can't show proof of citizenship on the spot. My problem here is not that illegal aliens are denied their rights (they don't have a right to be here) but that citizens or residents who "look like" they might be illegal are harassed and subject to humiliating experiences that 'regular people' do not have to suffer. Racial profiling should be strictly illegal. If people in Alabama or Arizona are going to vote for these severe laws, it should be with the knowledge that they will personally have to suffer the same harassment themselves, even if they don't 'look like' an illegal alien.

For me the disturbing thing about it is not that there are bad cops, but that these policies are officially sanctioned. They may even be justified in a way, since statistics show that black people are more likely to commit a crime in the US, and that people of Latino appearance are more likely to be illegal. However, even though it may be totally legitimate to say "I won't consider getting a Hundai because they have higher incidence of repairs," it is not legitimate to say "we should stop all Latinos because they have a higher incidence of being illegal." Cars don't have rights, human beings do, and I do not find it acceptable that law abiding "people of color" must endure police harassment because people who look like them are more likely to commit crimes.


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## Rasa (Apr 23, 2009)

If statistics show that black people commit more crimes or more crime happen in ethnic neighbourhoods, then not policing them in relation to those stats would be discrimination.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

DrMike said:


> I like how everybody piled onto regressive transphobe - granted his statement was pretty dumb - when it merely seemed to be the logical progression of the previous comments up to that point. After all, fascists are bad, aren't they, and should be done away with? Or are fascists good? Starthrower - you talked about the connection between cops and fascism, and listed the evils committed by cops. Tell me, do you lump your stepson in that group - or is it only "other" cops?
> 
> RT's comments were indeed stupid - but in the context of this thread, they don't really stand out. One uncorroborated account by a single individual in an opinion piece in the NYT, and you all start in with your various "cops are bad" memes, and then get upset when someone takes those arguments to their logical conclusion?


I think transphobe's comments were more of a non-sequitur than a logical conclusion.


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## Scarpia (Jul 21, 2010)

Rasa said:


> If statistics show that black people commit more crimes or more crime happen in ethnic neighbourhoods, then not policing them in relation to those stats would be discrimination.


You think that people who _look like_ people who commit crimes are not entitled to equal protection under the law?


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Rasa said:


> If statistics show that black people commit more crimes or more crime happen in ethnic neighbourhoods, then not policing them in relation to those stats would be discrimination.


It's the methodology of "policing them" that is the Big Thing, _Rasa_ The Ends don't _have_ to justify the Means; it depends on the Means.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Polednice said:


> I think transphobe's comments were more of a non-sequitur than a logical conclusion.


Hah. Good one, _Poley_. Worth a 'like', except the option isn't there. Software bug, must be.


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## Rasa (Apr 23, 2009)

Scarpia said:


> You think that people who _look like_ people who commit crimes are not entitled to equal protection under the law?


Everybody is entitled to protection, but if how you look is a possible indicator of the socio-economical group with related crime statistics, then I don't see why the police may not pay special attention to these groups.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Rasa said:


> Everybody is entitled to protection, but if how you look is a possible indicator of the socio-economical group with related crime statistics, then I don't see why the police may not pay special attention to these groups.


What if a feeling of antagonism with the establishment and authority figures perpetuates criminal activity in the groups that are targeted more often? It's a vicious circle that ought to be broken. Besides "paying special attention" does not account for unwarranted interactions between the police and people who have not behaved suspiciously (unless I am mistaken in thinking that one cannot have a suspicious skin colour).


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Thanks for posting the article, Scarpia.

This has been an issue here in Australia for decades. But I think that the police departments of our various states and territories are working on this issue and have been for a long time.

Eg. the original Aboriginal people of Australia have historically have not had a good relationship with the police. Even recently, eg. black deaths in custody. Of course, the various enquiries are a formal way of dealing with this, but other informal methods are being done. The main one I can think of is each police headquarters, if it is near an area with a large Aboriginal community, having what's called Aboriginal Liaison Officers. These officers are of Aboriginal heritage themselves and as their title implies are like a go-between the police "system" and the Aboriginal community on the ground. In other words, it maintains strong grassroots links to this ethnic minority group and give a human face to the police bureaucracy.

I also know that there are now Gay and Lesbian Liaison Officers, similarly in areas of high concentration of these groups.

So in other words, things are changing in this country. In the case of one of the solutions, clearly it's for the police to reach out and engage with the community, not have an "us and them" approach to it, but actually get to know the locals. Things like barbeque and lunch days in local parks where you can meet and have a chat to the local cops, is also becoming more regular. Ideally, we shouldn't only talk to or interact with a cop if we're in trouble or if we're a victim of crime. Police are part of our local community, not much different from anybody else who's part of that community, at least in terms of doing their job like the rest of us, etc.

The issue of police corruption is also a hot one here, but I'll leave that for now...


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## rojo (May 26, 2006)

I recently saw some footage of some guy who was making a point of hugging a bunch of cops. That was cute. 

Hey, what ever happened to those people who would stand on street corners etc. offering free hugs? I like that idea. I hope they weren't arrested.  It would be nice if people hugged more, I think.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

I can't put myself in the shoes of an officer not having been one, but I do wonder why this happens a bit more than called for? The guy in the article certainly didn't do anything to warrant being frisked the way he was. But discrimination is a hard thing to call someone out for, since its a hard thing to avoid doing. Its a tough and unfair fact of life that these minorities have to face, as the articles states. Thanks for the informative read.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

rojo said:


> I recently saw some footage of some guy who was making a point of hugging a bunch of cops. That was cute.
> 
> Hey, what ever happened to those people who would stand on street corners etc. offering free hugs? I like that idea. I hope they weren't arrested.  It would be nice if people hugged more, I think.


Wow, if I really like someone, after just a few times of hanging out and having good times I'll go in for a hug to say hello or goodbye. If that person in any way seems uncomfortable by that, I won't hug them again but I also won't feel I could trust them the same as the ones who join the hug fest. Only one friend who does get uncomfortable but he is my best friend and so we usually just make crazy noises when we greet; I just understand him and know how he is.


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## rojo (May 26, 2006)

^ That's nice kv466. 

I agree, sometimes some other action will do fine, such as a friendly smile or just lending a sympathetic ear.

It would be funny if the hug replaced the handshake as a greeting. :lol: I'm kinda enjoying imagining that. Government officials and corporate heads hugging each other at the start of meetings... :lol:


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

rojo said:


> It would be funny if the hug replaced the handshake as a greeting. :lol: I'm kinda enjoying imagining that. Government officials and corporate heads hugging each other at the start of meetings... :lol:


Or maybe a masculine chest bump or one of those elaborate handshaking gestures. That would be humorous, but a hug is a little more deeply sincere. I couldn't imagine hugging a cop, that would take guts.


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## rojo (May 26, 2006)

There's some cop hugging in this:








Cops are people too. Maybe sometimes they forget?


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

What about a hongi. You've got to get up close and personal for that:


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## Rasa (Apr 23, 2009)

Polednice said:


> What if a feeling of antagonism with the establishment and authority figures perpetuates criminal activity in the groups that are targeted more often? It's a vicious circle that ought to be broken. Besides "paying special attention" does not account for unwarranted interactions between the police and people who have not behaved suspiciously (unless I am mistaken in thinking that one cannot have a suspicious skin colour).


All I'm saying is that profiling is fine, and if it happens to coincide with race and geographical location where concentrations of ethnic groups live then we shouldn't get on our high horse about racial profiling.

That being said, I'm under the impression that cops in America are allowed to do things that would get them thrown away for a few years here.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

It's not only racial profiling but also the culture of the police department. The corporate or company culture, if you like, in terms of every workplace has a set of attitudes, politics, ideologies, etc. The solution is partly to conquer this. Eg. get over or deal with the fear of the other. As a white person in Australia, I know this is not easy, it is always disturbing to hear of race riots, we've had them over the years here, the one that went across the world was in Cronulla. I have seen some non-Anglo cops here, but they're few and far between. But at least the police department is not wholly Anglo as it used to be, plus the way they are liaising with the various ethnic and minority groups in different communities. The under policing of some places and the amalgamation of police stations (a nice word for saying they get shut down and the ones remaining take on more workload) are also hot issues here...


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2011)

I admire and respect police - I couldn't do it. When there is a situation where danger exists, or the threat of violence, most of us have the natural reaction to flee - cops run to it. You and I would try to escape an individual wielding a gun. A cop would stand up to them. If a mob was coming my way, I would make myself scarce - a cop would try to block them. They live in a world where, rather than avoiding the worst elements of society, they regularly have to interact with them. They live in a world where a minor traffic stop could get them killed (think of the cop killed recently at Virginia Tech). And it is a thankless job. No matter how many lives they save, no matter how much crime they prevent, people will only latch onto those incidents that are few and far between. Are there bad elements in the police force? Absolutely - they are only human, and while I think that there may be a higher concentration of people with a strong sense of right and wrong, it is inescapable that there will also be bad apples. But to make such scathing comments about police in general - calling them right-wing fascists, suggesting that the corruption is at the top level, and ensconced in their policies - is wrong and motivated by anecdotal evidence and sensationalist journalism reported by people who know they will sell more newspapers reporting police corruption than reporting all the good the police do.

I shudder to think of a world without police. I like the fact that I don't regularly fear violence against myself. If there is corruption in the police force, then it should be rooted out immediately and dealt with. They are given a huge public trust, and should be held to a higher standard. But this irresponsible condemnation of cops is just plain ridiculous. Spoken by people who do not know what it is to live without the brave work of police.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

rojo said:


> I recently saw some footage of some guy who was making a point of hugging a bunch of cops. That was cute.
> 
> Hey, what ever happened to those people who would stand on street corners etc. offering free hugs? I like that idea. I hope they weren't arrested.  It would be nice if people hugged more, I think.


I saw some people offering free hugs a few weeks ago! Apparently, we need 8 hugs per day!


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Polednice said:


> Apparently, we need 8 hugs per day!


I'm going to google that.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Polednice said:


> I saw some people offering free hugs a few weeks ago! Apparently, we need 8 hugs per day!


Not an acceptable practice among hillbillies, unless they involve female relatives, who may be forgiven for getting mushy.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

clavichorder said:


> I'm going to google that.


My source is a TED talk


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Free hugs in Lyttleton, the Chrischurch port that was the devastated epicentre of the February earthquake.


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