# Classical music as a punishment?!



## Edward Elgar (Mar 22, 2006)

I was watching Breakfast on BBC1 this morning, and heard a report that deeply perplexed me. A school was using classical music as a punishment for bad behaviour?!

Everytime I go to uni, I walk past a shopping centre. They always have classical music playing specifically in order to deter shoplifters!

Now true, the people in question are either problem children or the scum of the earth, but has our culture just collapsed into a mess of popular culture?

Another point is that being played classical music is "torture" for the ignorant, and yet it's bliss for those who are naturally inquisitive and who want to learn. These qualities are to be found in very few people these days.

Is it right to perpetuate the belief that classical music is not meant to be enjoyed? Please let me hear your thoughts on this topic.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Send the school's principal to a mental asylum.


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## Il Seraglio (Sep 14, 2009)

Sounds like another stupid gimmick from an education system terrified of its own pupils and their vile, lawsuit-threatening parents. It's not much different from making bullied children shake their tormentors hands or giving the most badly behaved kids a pat on the back for staying out of trouble for a day or two.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

I think a part of me has just died inside


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## Ravellian (Aug 17, 2009)

I cannot express in words how utterly contemptible that is. And England?? Don't they have some of the most venerable institutions of classical music in all of society?


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## Fsharpmajor (Dec 14, 2008)

Here is something similar:

http://thelisteningsessions.blogspot.com/2008/10/why-use-classical-music-as-punishment.html

http://www.chicagoclassicalmusic.org/node/7752

In Vancouver I remember they tried playing music outside light rail stations to stop teenagers from loitering there and dealing cannabis *, only it was MOR rather than classical. I think as long as it isn't rap, it probably doesn't matter what kind of music it is. "Dad rock" would probably work just as well.

* I was p**sed off, because I sometimes bought it from them.


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## Artemis (Dec 8, 2007)

I can't see anything odd about the school's behaviour where this additional punishment is administered. It's a fact that most people don't like classical music. If school kids are on detention for bad behaviour what's the point making it easier for them by giving them an easy time, like for example music to listen to which they like? 

The report that I read about this l suggests that both the statistics and pupil comments show the detentions have been effective in that it has drastically reduced bad behaviour and has improved the school's performance in public exams. That's all that matters unless someone can prove that the absence of this additional form of punishment would otherwise have stimulated a greater appreciation of classical music among the said miscreant juveniles, which seems rather unlikely to say the least. In fact it may have achieved a favourable effect in making these kids aware of music they hadn't previously heard.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

Not fully on-topic... but this brought back a "regional memory" that drew some nationwide attention--

Teacher _Bruce Janu_, a Chicago-area instructor who used the "Chairman of the Board" for the same purpose... there were even signs made- something like "*Don't* spend your late afternoons with Frank."

See here for one perspective.


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## Edward Elgar (Mar 22, 2006)

Ravellian said:


> And England??


Britain is dangerously close to becoming a failed state, at least most of the northern cities. Councils give most of their money away in benefits and with the recession, they have been squeezed by the underclass.


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

Edward Elgar said:


> I was watching Breakfast on BBC1 this morning, and heard a report that deeply perplexed me. A school was using classical music as a punishment for bad behaviour?!
> 
> Everytime I go to uni, I walk past a shopping centre. They always have classical music playing specifically in order to deter shoplifters!


Ah, but does it keep them away, or just make them behave like civilised people?



> Another point is that being played classical music is "torture" for the ignorant, and yet it's bliss for those who are naturally inquisitive and who want to learn. These qualities are to be found in very few people these days.
> Is it right to perpetuate the belief that classical music is not meant to be enjoyed? Please let me hear your thoughts on this topic.


Most of these kids only think they hate classical music. They've never heard it, wouldn't have a clue what it is. Doubtless, if you asked them to sit down and listen to a symphony orchestra, they'd think it would be really boring. But they go to see 'Pirates of the Carribean' or 'Lord of the Rings' and think it's fantastic. They just don't realise that much of the emotional effect is coming from the music, played by a symphony orchestra. I wonder exactly what is being played to the kids to 'deter' them? Wouldn't be Beethoven, surely? The Planets suite? Scherherazade? Pictures at an Exhibition? Don't think so. You'd have to pick it pretty carefully, I reckon. The endless duet with Senta in the middle of Flying Dutchman, perhaps?
I'd be extremely surprised if one or two kids didn't respond to something that's being played.
If it really is what we call 'classical music', that is. Who knows, it could be Richard Clayderman or something. Andre Rieu, perhaps. That'll bring on the diabetes, if nothing else.
cheers,
Graeme


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## sara (Jan 11, 2010)

That's really strange, especially if as GraemeG said they would be playing something like Pictures at and Exhibition, or even something a little 'head banging' like Rite of Spring in detention. Plus if they did that kind of thing when I was in high school I might've even tried to get into detention!

Unless they're playing Chinese Opera (sorry guys I'm just not a big fan...) or a midi version/mobile phone ring tone of Für Elise on repeat for 5 hours then it's hardly torture!


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I've heard of a particular council here in Australia piping Barry Manilow through speakers to deter hoons congregating at a car park. It worked...


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## jurianbai (Nov 23, 2008)

I heard they played doom-metal and rap music in Guantanamo, but never have the idea classical music can get the same effect 

But I am for sure will be study hard if the punishment is listen to Bartok 24 hour a day for failed student...


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## graaf (Dec 12, 2009)

A judge in US did something similar - either few weeks in jail, or few days of classical music listening. My view is that music affects people a lot, and people who are used to hip-hop/rap, country, and so on, have a hard time being exposed to music as classic is. In the matter of fact, for some of them, those few weeks in jail are either "vacation" or "opportunity to make business contacts", so hardly a punishment. While classical music surely is.

It is probably similar in that school - staying in detention might be useless, since "all the cool (bad behaved) kids are there" so it might not be that much of a punishment, while classic music must annoy them. And Barry Manilow? That's just cruel! 

Yet, it is interesting to see how people who never had a chance to mingle with "those people" perceive all this.

Best regards!

PS
This is 2nd Elgar's topic I've read - first mentioned "the great unwashed", in this one we have "underclass" in bad context. Just noticing.


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## Fsharpmajor (Dec 14, 2008)

Edward Elgar said:


> Everytime I go to uni, I walk past a shopping centre. They always have classical music playing specifically in order to deter shoplifters!


That would seem to be a win-win scenario, unless you actually worked there and had to listen to the same few pieces over and over. The shopping centre I go plays a fairly decent selection of pop music (Coldplay etc.), which is certainly better than muzak, but classical would be better still.


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## willgardner1 (Jan 22, 2010)

this topic is really popular all over the classical music scene on the internet.

if you want to express you feelings about classical music and youth culture then please take my survey below. thanks, its for a good cause (my dissertation)

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/music-youth


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## Marc (Jun 15, 2007)

Edward Elgar said:


> I was watching Breakfast on BBC1 this morning, and heard a report that deeply perplexed me. A school was using classical music as a punishment for bad behaviour?!
> 
> Everytime I go to uni, I walk past a shopping centre. They always have classical music playing specifically in order to deter shoplifters!
> 
> ...


Yep. Classical music *is* useful. 
In the Netherlands, in some shopping centres where teenagers were causing lots of trouble, especially outside trading hours, classical music was played ..... and it worked! They hated it so much that they stayed away!


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

sara said:


> That's really strange, especially if as GraemeG said they would be playing something like Pictures at and Exhibition, or even something a little 'head banging' like Rite of Spring in detention. Plus if they did that kind of thing when I was in high school I might've even tried to get into detention!
> 
> Unless they're playing Chinese Opera (sorry guys I'm just not a big fan...) or a midi version/mobile phone ring tone of Für Elise on repeat for 5 hours then it's hardly torture!


You forgot something. Organ music! Now that would be torture for the young. I can just picture them squirming at one of Widor's symphonies.


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## Rondo (Jul 11, 2007)

I'm not sure about the efficacy of this entirely, but I do know that more than ten seconds of Rage over a Lost Penny or an old Philip Glass piece would be like Chinese water torture for _me_.


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## MisquotedTeabag (Jan 24, 2010)

If the ultimate purpose of punishment is rehabilitation the right piece of classical music would provide as much reason and discipline as any verbose sermon. Of course the underlying motived judging by the circumstances is obviously nothing more than a petty form of punishing rampant youngs one suffering from mild ADD. However, classical music, although being an overused fact in popularizing it, does have therapeutic and stimulating effects; provided the right piece is chosen of course. There's just as much likely for a person to be inspired to go on a ravaging killing spree after listening Totentanz as there is to consoles ones tempers after a soothing Mozart Romanze. 

Eh, it's a lost cause though. A punishment is a punishment, no matter how I or anyone sugar coats it, and thus it shall be viewed by the perpetrator as such and will be abhorred for the very reason it was instigated as retaliation to his wrong doing. 


Lol, at playing doom metal in prisons. That's probably going to pivot the suicide rates towards a more economically efficient extreme...


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## shsherm (Jan 24, 2008)

These students must be attending Jack Black's "School Of Hard Rock".


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

The more principal levels of the discussion untold:
at the Copenhagen Central Station´s minor entrance
they play orchestral music as well to keep drug dealers
from gathering. However, last time I heard it, it was German 
wind band marches. Didn´t really have much effect though,
since they just kept a bit off-distance or ignored it.
But the effect was quite surrealistic ...


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