# Opera question



## ldiat (Jan 27, 2016)

hello now in a opera the composer writes the music. but some one else writes the text or Libretto. does the composer give guide lines as to what he wants the text to read/sing? did the text writer listen to the music first then discuss it with the composer? how did this work generally? thanks


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Pretty much any combination you can imagine is the answer. 

As a composer's reputation grows he gets to have more say in the text and structure of the story in general. Verdi is a good example of this. Early works had him setting to music a pre-written libretto, and that would apply to the other bel canto era composers too, e.g. Rossini, Donizetti, Bellini. But as Verdi's reputation grew he could demand much more of his librettists such as Francesco Maria Piave who provided the librettos for 10 of Verdi's middle period operas, pretty much under Verdi's artistic thumb all the time. 

Verdi's famous partnership with Arrigo Boito on his last works (Otello and Falstaff) was of a different class, where the highly regarded poet/librettist became a creative presence combining with Verdi's musical genius.

Famously, Wagner wrote all his own librettos, as did Arrigo Boito for his own two operas.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Don Fatale said:


> Pretty much any combination you can imagine is the answer.
> 
> As a composer's reputation grows he gets to have more say in the text and structure of the story in general. Verdi is a good example of this. Early works had him setting to music a pre-written libretto, and that would apply to the other bel canto era composers too, e.g. Rossini, Donizetti, Bellini). But as Verdi's reputation grew he could demand much more of his librettists such as Francesco Maria Piave who provided the librettos for 10 of Verdi's middle period operas, pretty much under Verdi's artistic thumb all the time.
> 
> ...


I've never quite understood why composers who wrote their own librettos aren't more highly regarded when compared to those who did not.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bonetan said:


> I've never quite understood why composers who wrote their own librettos aren't more highly regarded when compared to those who did not.


What? Wilhelm R. Wagner wrote his own librettos. Not exactly an unknown.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> I've never quite understood why composers who wrote their own librettos aren't more highly regarded when compared to those who did not.


Presumably because writing one's own librettos doesn't make one a great composer, one's librettos good, or one's operas successful.

Of opera's first-rank composers, only Wagner wrote all his own texts, and he hardly lacks for high regard.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> Presumably because writing one's own librettos doesn't make one a great composer, one's librettos good, or one's operas successful.
> 
> Of opera's first-rank composers, only Wagner wrote all his own texts, and he hardly lacks for high regard.


He doesn't lack for high regard, but shouldn't he stand head & shoulders above the rest all things considered? The libretto is considered a part of the composition, right? I just don't get why he's not in a class by himself. Are his librettos considered to be subpar?


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

hpowders said:


> What? Wilhelm R. Wagner wrote his own librettos. Not exactly an unknown.


I don't recall saying it was.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Others who wrote their own include Berlioz (good) and Tippett (good music, not so good libretto)


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## ldiat (Jan 27, 2016)

cool thanks all☑


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

ldiat said:


> hello now in a opera the composer writes the music. but some one else writes the text or Libretto. does the composer give guide lines as to what he wants the text to read/sing? did the text writer listen to the music first then discuss it with the composer? how did this work generally? thanks


Some of theme using already existing works like Verdi did with Shakespeare pieces.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> He doesn't lack for high regard, but shouldn't he stand head & shoulders above the rest all things considered? The libretto is considered a part of the composition, right? I just don't get why he's not in a class by himself. Are his librettos considered to be subpar?


He _is_ in a class by himself. Composer, librettist, conductor, philosopher, poet, mythmaker, theater designer, world changer... Don't worry about him. He's holding court in Valhalla as we speak.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The greatest librettists like da Ponte and Boito worked in collaboration with Mozart and Verdi on their operas. It can be safely said that the combination of genius librettist and composer produced what many people consider the five greatest operas ever written.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Yes. Richard Wagner wrote his operas' libretti with his own hand.

A tremendous_ feet!!_


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Donizetti's Lucia di lammermoor was after Salvadore Cammarano, made a libretto from Walter Scott's The Bride of Lammermoor


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Opera not usually my thing but goung to see Kitty Whateley in three weeks! Anyone come across her and is she any good! All I know is her father is the television actor Kevin!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Judith said:


> Opera not usually my thing but goung to see Kitty Whateley in three weeks! Anyone come across her and is she any good! All I know is her father is the television actor Kevin!


Never heard her name before, I just saw she's on YouTube, give it a try.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Becca said:


> Others who wrote their own include Berlioz (good) and Tippett (good music, not so good libretto)


Alban Berg wrote the librettos for his two operas, adapted from existing plays by others. Modest Mussorgsky also wrote his librettos. But he also didn't finish his operas.

And, because I hadn't found such a list, others that wrote the libretto for at least one of their operas (plus Boito and Wagner mentioned previously)

Alfano, Antheil, Busoni, Chausson, Cui, von Einem, Fairouz, Ferrero, Hagen, Hindemith, Janáček, Leoncavallo, Menotti, Prokofiev, Rimsky-Korsakov, Rousseau, Schoenberg, Stravinsky, Vaughan Williams, Zemlinsky, and Zimmermann


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

One of my favorite weird way that librettos can/did work: Many opera libretti have been set multiple times. Metastasio wrote several that were used by more than 50 different composers.

The first opera setting of _Adriano in Siria_ premiered in 1732; there were 14 more within a decade. It was used at least 60 times.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> He _is_ in a class by himself. Composer, librettist, conductor, philosopher, poet, mythmaker, theater designer, world changer... Don't worry about him. He's holding court in Valhalla as we speak.


Exactly! That's why I can't understand why Wagner isn't universally regarded as the greatest composer of Opera to ever live. Greatest composer of music is a different argument imo...I just want to understand this, because it doesn't add up to me. I'm on Talk Classical to get the education I never got in school & you guys deliver consistently!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> Exactly! That's why I can't understand why Wagner isn't universally regarded as the greatest composer of Opera to ever live. Greatest composer of music is a different argument imo...I just want to understand this, because it doesn't add up to me. I'm on Talk Classical to get the education I never got in school & you guys deliver consistently!


Well, I'm sure there will never be agreement on who is the "greatest" composer of opera, just as there is none on who is the greatest composer of music. It's all in what criteria you use to determine greatness. But I would say that of all opera composers Wagner is the most multifaceted genius, and the one who, out of his own imagination and skill, expanded most radically opera's potential as a serious art form, influencing the way opera was conceived, composed, and staged forever after. Whether that means that he wrote the greatest operas is a debate I prefer not to have, though I'm happy to prick the balloon of anyone who thinks he's smart enough to have it!


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