# about the conflict of Mozart's "The magic flute"



## Tarneem (Jan 3, 2022)

hi my gorgeous people hope that corona didn't manage to break your strong spirit!

so yeah,,, lately I was listening to Mozart's "the magic flute" and I got the feeling that Mozart intended to make the conflict of this opera about light versus dark, represented in the rivalry between Sarastro and the queen of the night. but as I am watching the opera I felt that the conflict is more about the innocent of childhood "represented by our beloved papageno" and the heavy loads of adulthood "represented by Tamino"


your thoughts???


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Spirit not broken, but certainly burdened and laboring. It's one reason I spend so darned much time on this forum, gesticulating at an indifferent universe.

If we're looking for conflict in _Zauberflote_, then I think we find it where it's always been found: between the realms of darkness, represented as feminine (the Queen), and light, represented as masculine (Sarastro). The psychological, philosophical and cultural implications of this dualism I'll leave for another time, and maybe to someone who's thought more about _Flute_ than I have. I view the opera as fairly light entertainment, and its symbolism as not terribly deep.

I don't know what heavy burdens you're referring to, since Tamino hardly qualifies as an adult. He and Pamina undergo a symbolic rite of passage, but that appears to be the end of it. Perhaps you could expatiate?


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Zäuberflöte and Cosi display the usual misogyny and casual racism prevalent in many of Mozart’s operas and indeed the 18th and 19th centuries in general. If one were at all cynical one might almost say it’s still there in 20th and 21st century society.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Barbebleu said:


> Zäuberflöte and Cosi display the usual misogyny and casual racism prevalent in many of Mozart's operas and indeed the 18th and 19th centuries in general. If one were at all cynical one might almost say it's still there in 20th and 21st century society.


I've never thought of these operas as misogynistic. They have alway struck me as light entertainment, i.e. silly plots but with beautiful music. Of course that describes most 18th and 19th century operas. Hardly the kind of thing to take seriously enough to weigh a misogyny quotient.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

I've never thought of Papageno and Tamino as representing any sort of conflict of identity as much as representing different sides of the same coin. Pamina may be the ideal to be achieved by Tamino's very spiritual ( at least it is put forth that we are to take it that way...I find the musical world of the journey very successfully brings me to a sense of spiritual journey even if that does not mean that dramatically they achieved it) and essentially humorless journey. But in music I find her most endearing shared moment in the warm lyricism of her duet with Papageno - And yes, there is reference in there to a woman's DUTY in how she should love a man... They still had a ways to go - and throughout, Papageno's earthbound humor is essential to get this journey out of our heads and into our bloodstream.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

SanAntone said:


> I've never thought of these operas as misogynistic. They have alway struck me as light entertainment, i.e. silly plots but with beautiful music. Of course that describes most 18th and 19th century operas. Hardly the kind of thing to take seriously enough to weigh a misogyny quotient.


It's not unlike the discussion of Turandot...what happens when we put "fairy tale" characters up onstage as full grown men and women? People will have different takes. But. I cannot look at Monostatos and just think " oh how cute!"


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Tamino's "rite of passage" makes me think of another supposed masterpiece from a different musical genre, "Carousel"! Admittedly, Billy's journey with his heavenly friend after death is not attempting much in the way of spirituality. But we are clearly supposed to feel by the end that Billy has accomplished an important transformation. And after a lot of looking, if he does anything more than say "believe him" in his daughters ear, I haven't found it. 

But here-in lies a good part of why I'm an opera lover and only sometimes a musical lover. Mozart the magician has kept my attention where he wants it to be...on the music!...where, for me, a musical-spiritual occurrence HAS taken place!


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Barbebleu said:


> Zäuberflöte and Cosi display the usual misogyny and casual racism prevalent in many of Mozart's operas and indeed the 18th and 19th centuries in general. If one were at all cynical one might almost say it's still there in 20th and 21st century society.


By the time Cosi is done, the one character who has fully stepped out of the 2 dimensional world and become three dimensional is Fiodiligi. I Only came to love the opera though a very successful live performance so even though Im very familiar with the music I don't know the words intimately. Thus is the first time I've ever considered the question of Misogyny in Cosi ( one of the things I'm coming to live about thus Forum). But wouldn't her more full bodied journey argue against the misogyny complaint?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

"There were those who saw Joseph II as the inspiration for Sarastro, while Maria Theresa, at best a study in ambivalence, was an obvious source for the Queen of the Night."


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

ScottK said:


> It's not unlike the discussion of Turandot...what happens when we put "fairy tale" characters up onstage as full grown men and women? People will have different takes. But. I cannot look at Monostatos and just think " oh how cute!"


No one said anything about "oh how cute." But looking at these works through a 21st century socio-political prism, for me, is anachronistic, and (more importantly) counterproductive since my _only_ interest is in enjoying the music and singing.

As always, YMMV.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> Spirit not broken, but certainly burdened and laboring. It's one reason I spend so darned much time on this forum, gesticulating at an indifferent universe.
> 
> If we're looking for conflict in _Zauberflote_, then I think we find it where it's always been found: between the realms of darkness, represented as feminine (the Queen), and light, represented as masculine (Sarastro). The psychological, philosophical and cultural implications of this dualism I'll leave for another time, and maybe to someone who's thought more about _Flute_ than I have.* I view the opera as fairly light entertainment, and its symbolism as not terribly deep.
> *
> I don't know what heavy burdens you're referring to, since Tamino hardly qualifies as an adult. He and Pamina undergo a symbolic rite of passage, but that appears to be the end of it. Perhaps you could expatiate?


Genuine question as opposed to an implication that you should.... Do you find Sarastro's music of the entertainment sort?


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

SanAntone said:


> No one said anything about "oh how cute." But looking at these works through a 21st century socio-political prism, for me, is anachronistic, and (more importantly) counterproductive since my _only_ interest is in enjoying the music and singing.
> 
> As always, YMMV.


I definitely did not mean to imply that you saw it that way. And of course opinions are subjective - never came across that one before! And I cannot say what's been done with the scene recently but that was the clear intent the many times Ive seen it.

Not an easy question, how we deal with representations from the past that clash with our modern sense Of right and wrong.


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## Tarneem (Jan 3, 2022)

ScottK said:


> Genuine question as opposed to an implication that you should.... Do you find Sarastro's music of the entertainment sort?


THIS IS EXACTLY MY POINT!

the first act of the opera is absolutely my favorite. and I find it very charming when they locked Papageno's mouth and they unlocked it when he promised that he wouldn't lie again..

Sarastro's parts sound less like singing and more like narration, it doesn't have the "Mozartian" charm that we see in the parts of the queen of the night


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Tarneem said:


> THIS IS EXACTLY MY POINT!
> 
> the first act of the opera is absolutely my favorite. and I find it very charming when they locked Papageno's mouth and they unlocked it when he promised that he wouldn't lie again..
> 
> Sarastro's parts sound less like singing and more like narration, it doesn't have the "Mozartian" charm that we see in the parts of the queen of the night


So when you say *that's your point,* I get how the locking of Papageno's mouth could connect to the Papageno side of your point.

"I felt that the conflict is more about the innocent of childhood "represented by our beloved Papageno"

But where's the Tamino part?

"and the heavy loads of adulthood "represented by Tamino"..."

Sarastro's music is to me, and many others, definitely singing! Not trying to talk you out of where Mozart works for you......... the Queen of the Night is fantastic! But if I chose a favorite part of one of my favorite operas, the second act would be it. And a large part of that would be because of Sarastro's music.


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## Tarneem (Jan 3, 2022)

ScottK said:


> But where's the Tamino part?


when the three fair young boys say to Tamino "listen to our advice: be constant, patient, and discreet!" "Remember this, in short, be a man. Then, youth, you will conquer like a man."


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Tarneem said:


> when the three fair young boys say to Tamino "listen to our advice: be constant, patient, and discreet!" "Remember this, in short, be a man. Then, youth, you will conquer like a man."


Okay...I see where the things that caught your attention could lead you to consider Papageno innocence vs Tamino Manhood. I like it!
I'll enjoy giving that idea a thought when I'm listening again. I've never been much interested in the whole Sarastro vs Queen of the Night thing. But the two sides of the same coin thing I mentioned really doesn't easily go along with your idea. It should be fun to consider some thing so familiar from a different point of view. Besides, even though what I said has worked for me...the kind of "buddy film" with two different types....yours sounds probably more akin to what they were thinking when they wrote it.

Give Sarastro's music another listen. I'll enlist the help of a famous name...George Bernard Shaw said that Sarastro's arias are the only music that could be put into the mouth of God without sacrilege! Doesnt mean you or anyone has to like them. Just means there are people out there who do!


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

SanAntone said:


> silly plots but with beautiful music.


by no means Die Zauberflote plot or that of any other main repertoir opera being silly.

there plots are well intelligent, elaborate and meaningful.

let's not think we the smartest ever lived.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

sharik said:


> by no means Die Zauberflote plot or that of any other main repertoir opera being silly.
> 
> *there plots are well intelligent, elaborate and meaningful.*
> 
> let's not think we the smartest ever lived.


I agree Die Zauberflote's plot is intelligent, elaborate and *attempts to be* meaningful. But it is also attempting to be a good story for the stage! I think Papageno is always fun to watch but if someone told me they found alot of the rest silly...as a plot... I wouldn't think they were crazy.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Tarneem said:


> when they locked Papageno's mouth and they unlocked it when he promised that he wouldn't lie again..


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

hammeredklavier said:


>


Oh My God this is amazing! Must have heard of it at sometime but forgot really fast. Watched about 5 scenes and it's just amazing! Can't wait to finish . Great post, Thank You!


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I very seldom look for further depth in opera than is on the surface and the libretto. Even in the Wagner output, which have enough _longueurs_ on their own not to instigate any more involvement, psychological or otherwise. No flaming, please. Operas are a listening experience for me nowadays, music and singers' endowments.

As for *Die Zauberflöte *, I particularly like the recordings without dialog, the Klemperer being my favorite. I have other versions for one or another singer (Wunderlich, Edda Moser, etc.)


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

MAS said:


> I very seldom look for further depth in opera than is on the surface and the libretto. Even in the Wagner output, which have enough _longueurs_ on their own not to instigate any more involvement, psychological or otherwise. No flaming, please. Operas are a listening experience for me nowadays, music and singers' endowments.
> 
> As for *Die Zauberflöte *, I particularly like the recordings without dialog, the Klemperer being my favorite. I have other versions for one or another singer (Wunderlich, Edda Moser, etc.)


This version just posted may not excite you then.

BUT...I will say that in the five or so scenes that I watched, the virtues struck me as having nothing to do with psycho/spiritual interpretations. I thought it was just excellent story telling. But the voices mostly were clean and lean, at least through my iPad. No Wunderlch sounds. Good Queen of the night though.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

ScottK said:


> This version just posted may not excite you then.
> 
> BUT...I will say that in the five or so scenes that I watched, the virtues struck me as having nothing to do with psycho/spiritual interpretations. I thought it was just excellent story telling. But the voices mostly were clean and lean, at least through my iPad. No Wunderlch sounds. Good Queen of the night though.


When I first read about Kenneth Branagh's film, I was very interested, but it never had decent distribution in the U.S., so I never saw it. I'm grateful to hammeredklavier for posting it above. I will watch it with interest, though I usually detest up-dating in my operas.


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## Tarneem (Jan 3, 2022)

hammeredklavier said:


>


oh my god you did a great favor


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

ScottK said:


> if someone told me they found alot of the rest silly...as a plot...


then they don't get it... the plot concerns the geopolitics at play behind the characters of The Queen Of The Night who represents the English monarchy clash with Sarastro & his Temple priests who represent German freemasonry over who is to rule the world. Papageno is to Tamino what that, say, Sancho Panza was to Don Quixote; a peasant with his lowly desires as opposed to an aristocrat with his noble aspirations... still despite his failures he gets rewarded by the Temple priests who will show understanding for the nature of simple men.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

sharik said:


> then they don't get it... the plot concerns the geopolitics at play behind the characters of The Queen Of The Night who represents the English monarchy clash with Sarastro & his Temple priests who represent German freemasonry over who is to rule the world. Papageno is to Tamino what that, say, Sancho Panza was to Don Quixote; a peasant with his lowly desires as opposed to an aristocrat with his noble aspirations... still despite his failures he gets rewarded by the Temple priests who will show understanding for the nature of simple men.


A most convincing map!

I'm guessing you're talking about Branagh's version. Not the Magic Flute in general.


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

I don’t know when we’re going to learn that the Magic Flute is a work of its time. To try and judge it how we think today is a fallacy. It represents how people thought in those days. Similarly with cosi. We might not like these things in which case don’t listen to it


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

marlow said:


> I don’t know when we’re going to learn that the Magic Flute is a work of its time. To try and judge it how we think today is a fallacy. It represents how people thought in those days. Similarly with cosi. We might not like these things in which case don’t listen to it


To me, Mozart’s operas are a listening experience.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

marlow said:


> I don’t know when we’re going to learn that the Magic Flute is a work of its time. To try and judge it how we think today is a fallacy. It represents how people thought in those days. Similarly with cosi. We might not like these things in which case don’t listen to it


Yeah, as in other cases like


hammeredklavier said:


> // "In German folklore, one finds an inordinate number of texts concerned with anality. Scheiße (***_), Dreck (dirt), Mist (manure), Arsch (_), and other locutions are commonplace. Folksongs, folktales, proverbs, folk speech-all attest to the Germans' longstanding special interest in this area of human activity.
> Dundes (1984) provides ample coverage of scatological humor in Mozart, but also cites scatological texts from Martin Luther, Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, Heinrich Heine, and others who helped shaped German culture. Karhausen (1993) asserts that "scatology was common in Mitteleuropa [central Europe]", noting for instance that Mozart's Salzburg colleague Michael Haydn also wrote a scatological canon ("Scheiß nieder, armer Sünder")." // [ wikipedia ]


, we must consider the historical context;


hammeredklavier said:


> "Mesmerizing Adultery: "Così fan tutte" and the Kornman Scandal https://www.jstor.org/stable/3878310 A notorious adultery scandal involving Guillaume Kornman (a co-founder and sponsor of the French mesmeric society) and Beaumarchais, who defended Kornman's unfaithful wife, should be considered one of the main sources of inspiration for Così fan tutte. A pamphlet war between the two broke out in 1787, when Salieri was living with Beaumarchais in Paris. Significantly, the earliest sources of the opera - Salieri's first unfinished setting of La scola degli amanti, Da Ponte's original libretto, and Mozart's autograph - all spell the name of Guglieimo as 'Guilelmo.' A study of this real-life Parisian drama helps to clarify several dramatic and musical elements of the opera, including the use of mesmeric references, which is more pervasive than previously recognized. In this new light, the opera appears to offer a political response to the radical ideas on the regulation of sexual and social matters disseminated by Kornman's mesmeric circle."
> Guillaume Kornmann (born 1741, Strasbourg) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillaume_Kornmann


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

^By the way, are all the things in Die Zauberflöte associated with the number 3 really inspired by Freemasonry, or something else?
"The story of Die Wahrheit der Natur (1769) revolves around Mentor’s quest for true art, which here is aided by the three Graces, Aglaia (Brightness), Euphrosyne (Joyfulness) and Thalia (Bloom), the daughters of Nature."


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

"The Magic Flute expresses the world's ambiguities perhaps better than any other Mozart opera. Sarastro, who represents good, light, and rationality, nonetheless keeps the innocent Pamina prisoner and has in his employ Monostatos, an unctuous, perfidious person. It appears that Mozart and Schikaneder took as their model for the Sarastro character Ignaz von Born, the scientist who had introduced Mozart to Freemasonry. Born was proud and intolerant. Sarastro, like Born and like all men, is imperfect."








Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart


This year marks the 250th anniversary of the birth of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, one of the most enduringly popular and celebrated composers to have ever lived. His substantial oeuvre contains works that are considered to be among the most exquisite pieces of symphonic, chamber, and choral music...



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"The Queen of the Night has been compared to her royal counterpart, the Empress Maria Theresa. The Queen transforms from a good woman into a ranging, avenging, and evil antagonist; likewise, the Empress Maria Theresa was initially deemed righteous and principled, but many Austrians believed that she later betrayed them. In 1791, the year of The Magic Flute's premiere, the Empress Maria Theresa had been dead for seven years, but her earlier actions to suppress Freemasonry were not forgotten; she was condemned posthumously."








Mozart's The Magic Flute


A comprehensive guide to Mozart's THE MAGIC FLUTE, featuring insightful and in depth Commentary and Analysis, a complete, newly translated Libretto with German/English translation side-by side, and over 30 music highlight examples.



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