# Round Two: Ah, Perfido! Baker and Horne



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

It's the mezzo's turn.
This is a long piece. If you would prefer I spread these out to once a week I can.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I think both are really beautiful but Baker is really something special here. Horne has more power for the dramatic passages I feel.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

My fondness for Janet Baker's work in English and French music, as well as songs of varied provenence_,_ is not carrying over to include this piece. Part of the reason is that this is clearly a late recording, and quite a bit of effort and insecurity is evident in her attempts to control dynamics in the upper range, the voice threatening to give out even when it doesn't quite. Other than that, her diction is often unclear, especially up high, and I feel a mismatch beween her very pure, contained tonal quality and this extroverted, passionate, Italianate music. She does all the right things, but the voice isn't really the one for the job, a least at this stage of her career. The spirit is willing, but...

Horne's voice sounds in great shape, confident from loud to soft and top to bottom, and her performance is quite dramatically effective. I've never had warm feelings about Horne's somewhat brassy timbre, but that's a personal thing.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Baker's performance dates from 1977, when she would have been 44, so it's not that late. She would carry on singing in opera for another four years, giving superb performances at Covent Garden in *Alceste*, with English National Opera in *Maria Stuarda *and at Glyndebourne as Orfeo in Gluck's *Orfeo ed Euridice*. This was her official retirement from opera, but she continued to sing in concert for over ten years and quietly retired from the concert platform in 1989, though she continued to make a few recordings until 1991. So, in terms of her total career, this is not that late a performance, though I would agree that the voice sounds under stress. I've had this performance, first on LP, and then later on CD since probably the early 1980s, and I admit I'd always found it a bit disappointing compared to other performances I knew by Callas and Schwarzkopf, who are both more fiery and dramatic. However, listening to it today, I liked it a lot better, even taking into account some of the discoloration of her vowels in the higher sections. I feel that she and Leppard, who is conducting, bring us much closer to the concert aria's Classical roots and the slower, more lyrcal sections of the score have a moving _innigkeit _that I don't hear in Horne's performance. In fact, despite a voice in better, more youthfuly sappy shape, I don't really hear much of anything in Horne's performance. It lacks specificity and consequently did very little for me. For that reason I'm sticking with Baker, who kept my interest throughout. I'll forgive a few off centre notes for the added insight into the music.


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

Neither does it. Baker’s is conducted too slow and Horne’s too fast. Are these in the original key? And why bother with mezzos when the piece was written for soprano? It’s kind of like the Wesendonck Lieder which are a travesty when sung by any other voice but the soprano voice. Not to mention that the usual arrangement used for mezzos (by I can’t remember) is simply no match for Felix Mottl’s perfect orchestration.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

I ended up going for Horne but neither do much for me. Baker sounds out of form and Horne is a singer I just don't like, I always end up with that rather unsatisfied expression that Milanov has on her face after listening to her singing Dalila's big aria but she is a little better here.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Horne seemed more comfortable to sing. Baker sounded a little strained, but as a good musician on an unfavorable day.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Op.123 said:


> I ended up going for Horne but neither do much for me. Baker sounds out of form and Horne is a singer I just don't like, I always end up with that rather unsatisfied expression that Milanov has on her face after listening to her singing Dalila's big aria but she is a little better here.


That concert reminded a contest for the worst gown. I can't forget Sutherland disguised as a salad bunch. And Horne's blue _cauchemar_ is one of the winners. Isn't it what really Milanov disliked?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

ColdGenius said:


> That concert reminded a contest for the worst gown. I can't forget Sutherland disguised as a salad bunch. And Horne's blue _cauchemar_ is one of the winners. Isn't it what really Milanov disliked?


I wish I could do a contest of the worst gown by Youtube recital aria performances. OMG!!!! They are dreadful!!!! They show up in my searches. I might do one of the divas using video as you get in trouble posting photos.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

I voted for Janet Baker; she is among my most favorite singers - but I don't think of Beethoven as her bailiwick. Conversely, Marilyn Horne's singing has never attracted me, always seemed powerful but pedestrian. Kind of like that joke, "the food here is terrible, and such small portions."

So it was something of a contest of which one disappointed me the least.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

As I already said, not being familiar with the work I will go with my gut. The voice that seems to have more gusto, power and drama was Horne although Baker's voice was steady and beautiful but not as exciting.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Op.123 said:


> I ended up going for Horne but neither do much for me. Baker sounds out of form and Horne is a singer I just don't like, I always end up with that rather unsatisfied expression that Milanov has on her face after listening to her singing Dalila's big aria but she is a little better here.


That gown is ridiculous. She looks like a sausage trying to burst out. Didn’t she have a gay friend to help?


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Is Horne and her conductor trying to catch a train? The tempo is too fast, but Horne is up to task. I don’t like Baker in this piece at all.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> It's the mezzo's turn.
> *This is a long piece. If you would prefer I spread these out to once a week I can*.


John:Speaking personally about these long arias, I have no problem at all with them because I am very comfortable with my method of choosing the right voice for me and it rarely consists of listening to the entire work -- I just shop aound and pick the same spot for both singers and choose that way. So no need to spread them out to once a week. I know just how to shorten them to suit me.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

The length of the piece never bothers me.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Baker's performance dates from 1977, when she would have been 44, so it's not that late.


This surprises me. She was a pretty consistent singer, and made fine recordings during the 1970s. Maybe she wasn't feeling well during this session. Or maybe she shouldn't have sung this piece at all, given that it's very definitely for soprano. Even late Callas sounds more at home in it.


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Baker's voice was more lyric than dramatic, but she was intelligent and knew it. I see parallels between her interpretation and that of Didon in Les Troyens, one of Baker's famous roles. As for this area being written for soprano, there's nothing in the tessitura that would keep a mezzo with secure high notes from singing it, though I must admit by the time she recorded this area for Philips, Baker's upper register was starting to sound less free and full than in the sixties, when she was lauded for her strong high notes. Horne is forthright, and that's works for the extrovert parts of the aria, but much of what she sings is forthright. Hearty. Not much inner tension though vocally secure.


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Op.123 said:


> I ended up going for Horne but neither do much for me. Baker sounds out of form and Horne is a singer I just don't like, I always end up with that rather unsatisfied expression that Milanov has on her face after listening to her singing Dalila's big aria but she is a little better here.


Milanov's expression here has been the subject of so much discourse over the years. Perhaps someone needs to write a scholarly analysis of the expression and the discourse about it. I love Rise Stevens getting up to hug Horne. That was an act that showed true class.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

This is going to be interesting. We have two mezzos, but two very different mezzos.

I've only heard the Baker once before and I expect she will be at her best in the first part of the aria proper. There are some luminous notes in the recit, but in places it lacks the incisive bite I think is necessary here. It's all a little too staid and classical (and the conducting is very much in that mould). That said, there are some wonderful moments and the quieter, more reflective parts of the recit are very moving. As with all of Baker's recordings there is much to enjoy (the phrasing of the cavatina displays her great artistry and I love her intensity in this stretch of the piece). This is a contender for winning this round.

Should we really be comparing these two singers when it is possibly the conducting that makes the biggest difference in approach? Horne's is totally different to Bakers. The recit is more fiery and the pushing on a classical piece into early romantic territory reminds me of how Callas performed Medea under Rescigno and Bernstein. Where the Baker version was almost a caricature of the classical style, this one stretches the music to the opposite extreme and I don't really like either. Horne has a fuller voice and better diction in some places, but I'm missing the wonderful touches that Baker provides in places. 

I don't think either of these two will win this contest overall, but I choose Baker for her graceful and moving singing of the cavatina which has been the highlight of this almost half an hour of listening.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The Conte said:


> This is going to be interesting. We have two mezzos, but two very different mezzos.
> 
> I've only heard the Baker once before and I expect she will be at her best in the first part of the aria proper. There are some luminous notes in the recit, but in places it lacks the incisive bite I think is necessary here. It's all a little too staid and classical (and the conducting is very much in that mould). That said, there are some wonderful moments and the quieter, more reflective parts of the recit are very moving. As with all of Baker's recordings there is much to enjoy (the phrasing of the cavatina displays her great artistry and I love her intensity in this stretch of the piece). This is a contender for winning this round.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what you mean by a caricature of classical style. It's quite an early Beethoven work and I felt that Baker and Leppard adopted a sutably Classical style of performance. I have other doubts about the performance, as I laid out in my post #4, but I did feel that they at least had a point of view, which I didn't get at all from the Horne performance, which I thought lacked any sort of musical specificity.

Of those I've heard so far, Schwarzkopf's is still the finest for me.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by a caricature of classical style. It's quite an early Beethoven work and I felt that Baker and Leppard adopted a sutably Classical style of performance.


What I meant was that it's 100% classical, so totally classical in style that it is stereotypically classical. I prefer the conducting on the Schwarzkopf where the style is still classical, but also acknowledges the Sturm und Drang of Beethoven that takes his music somewhat beyond the classical even though it would be wrong to perform it in an early romantic style. Beethoven isn't Schumann, but he isn't Mozart either. Leppard conducts it as if it were Mozart or Haydn. Strictly speaking that isn't wrong, but he could have been more imaginative.

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Can I just say thank you for this contest, SOF?

This was a fascinating comparison for me as they are two totally opposed versions of this wonderful music and whilst neither is ideal it was interesting to compare two such different approaches to interpreting a piece. Not every selection has to be an excellent performance. It is also great to spend time comparing two famous voices in their lesser recordings and very fascinating (for me at least).

N.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

The Conte said:


> Can I just say thank you for this contest, SOF?
> 
> This was a fascinating comparison for me as they are two totally opposed versions of this wonderful music and whilst neither is ideal it was interesting to compare two such different approaches to interpreting a piece. Not every selection has to be an excellent performance. It is also great to spend time comparing two famous voices in their lesser recordings and very fascinating (for me at least).
> 
> N.


Bless you for making my day    It is not an easy piece and while all of the singers I chose are not as adept at interpreting it it was meant as a way to analyze how each very different artist brings their own stamp to the music. Glad you are enjoying it. There are few arias where such a broad spectrum of singers perform the same piece for posterity. I didn't include Nilsson in my rounds but I found that even though you don't immediately think of her as being ideal for this piece she nevertheless brings many moments of great beauty to her interpretation, especially with her piano singing.


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I didn't include Nilsson in my rounds but I found that even though you don't immediately think of her as being ideal for this piece she nevertheless brings many moments of great beauty to her interpretation, especially with her piano singing.


I have provided the opportunity for evaluating Nilsson along with Studer and Cruz-Romo.
Special Round: “Ah! Perfido” Op. 65 ON FILM: Studer...


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Seattleoperafan said:


> *Bless you for making my day*    It is not an easy piece and while all of the singers I chose are not as adept at interpreting it it was meant as a way to analyze how each very different artist brings their own stamp to the music. Glad you are enjoying it. There are few arias where such a broad spectrum of singers perform the same piece for posterity. I didn't include Nilsson in my rounds but I found that even though you don't immediately think of her as being ideal for this piece she nevertheless brings many moments of great beauty to her interpretation, especially with her piano singing.


Good for you, John, well deserved acclaim for an oft-times thankless task that can result in a sense of discouragement and despair that can threaten to break the heart and spirit of lesser mortals...

People would probably be far more grateful - far kinder to you personally - for all your efforts if they knew that your understudy - the person who would take over your role were to quit in disgust - was a straight Irish guy...


Maybe we should give them a look at what the "Ghost of "Battle of the Sopranos" Yet To Come" would look like if it were curated by a straight Irish guy...



"Battle of the Sopranos" - "Danny Boy" - Part One of Twenty-Five 

*Poll - "Which set of these fine-looking Irish lasses sang this lovely tune the best?*

O - Celtic Woman - "Danny Boy" - Version 1

O - Celtic Woman - "Danny Boy" - Version 2

O - Celtic Woman - "Danny Boy" - Version 3

O - Celtic Woman - "Danny Boy" - Version 4


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Shaughnessy said:


> Good for you, John, well deserved acclaim for an oft-times thankless task that can result in a sense of discouragement and despair that can threaten to break the heart and spirit of lesser mortals...
> 
> People would probably be far more grateful - far kinder to you personally - for all your efforts if they knew that your understudy - the person who would take over your role were to quit in disgust - was a straight Irish guy...
> 
> ...


I'm afraid Rosa Ponselle has rendered me incapable of listening to these charmers, though I'm sure they surpass her in every respect that doesn't matter.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Rosa's is gorgeous and brought a tear to my eye, but how unfair that I cannot vote for one of the four lassies because I have one that is waiting patiently on the tip of my tongue.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> Rosa's is gorgeous and brought a tear to my eye, but how unfair that I cannot vote for one of the four lassies because I have one that is waiting patiently on the tip of my tongue.


You have a lassie on your tongue?

Perhaps I shouldn't ask...


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Shaughnessy said:


> Good for you, John, well deserved acclaim for an oft-times thankless task that can result in a sense of discouragement and despair that can threaten to break the heart and spirit of lesser mortals...
> 
> People would probably be far more grateful - far kinder to you personally - for all your efforts if they knew that your understudy - the person who would take over your role were to quit in disgust - was a straight Irish guy...
> 
> ...


And Mary O'hara.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Francasacchi said:


> *And Mary O'Hara.*


I'm doing the "Danny Boy" series of contests in alphabetical order - Mary O'Hara won't be making an appearance until Game 17 of the 25 game series.

I'm trying to track down a copy of the ultra rare bootleg recording from the Maria Callas "Las Vegas Danny Boy" sessions when she was doing her residency at the Sands Hotel and when asked to join the original "Rat Pack" by Dean Martin and Sammy Davis, Jr. she replied -

"Sono una donna eppure ho le palle ancora più grandi di Frank Sinatra! - Può andare all'inferno - Piccolo bastardo magro - Dovrebbe unirsi al _mio_ branco di topi!"


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