# Beethoven string quartets



## DaDirkNL

I've been trying to 'get' the Beethoven late string quartets. So far I haven't succeeded. I tend to get bored after a few minutes. What do you like about these quartets that makes them some of the best ever written?


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## PetrB

Usually if you are 'not getting' a piece, there are (in my mind) two workable options.

Put on the recording and 'do something else,' i.e. do not concentrate on it, try to consciously follow it, but 'just let it be in the room.' Subconsciously, you may get more used to / familiar with their general drift, and then after some of treating them in that manner, give them a real listen.

Option two. Back up to the middle quartets, progress through other works which are also becoming more abstract (piano sonatas, etc.) and try those later quartets, uh, _later,_ as in anywhere from six months to several years from now.

My listening mind is open to quite a lot now, but even with the background of an early childhood beginning (which included Bartok,) some things take their time as you take your time to reach some kind of literal and musical maturity. Some great works, I recall, held 'nothing for me then,' and they do now... some of 'getting those' really was a matter of years of listening to all sorts of other music, then returning to those things I 'did not get.'


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## KenOC

Maybe you're trying too hard. Start with this piece of merriment, the last completed work by Beethoven.


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## DaDirkNL

PetrB said:


> Usually if you are 'not getting' a piece, there are (in my mind) two workable options.
> 
> Put on the recording and 'do something else,' i.e. do not concentrate on it, try to consciously follow it, but 'just let it be in the room.' Subconsciously, you may get more used to / familiar with their general drift, and then after some of treating them in that manner, give them a real listen.
> 
> Option two. Back up to the middle quartets, progress through other works which are also becoming more abstract (piano sonatas, etc.) and try the later quartet, uh, _later,_ as in anywhere from six months to several years from now.
> 
> My listening mind is open to quite a lot now, but even beginning in early childhood, some things take their time as you take your time to reach some kind of literal and musical maturity. Some great works, I recall, held 'nothing for me then,' and they do now... some of 'getting those' really was a matter of years of listening to all sorts of other music, then returning to those things I 'did not get.'


That's good advice. Thank you.


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## DaDirkNL

KenOC said:


> Maybe you're trying too hard. Start with this piece of merriment, the last completed work by Beethoven.


That is actually nice. But it's mostly the first and second movements that are tougher.


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## Ukko

DaDirkNL said:


> I've been trying to 'get' the Beethoven late string quartets. So far I haven't succeeded. I tend to get bored after a few minutes. What do you like about these quartets that makes them some of the best ever written?


That reads like you are thinking about the music while trying to hear it. Stop that!


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## DaDirkNL

Ukko said:


> That reads like you are thinking about the music while trying to hear it. Stop that!


Haha, you're right!


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## violadude

I'd like to ask, if you can remember, which one have you attempted to enjoy the most?


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## DaDirkNL

violadude said:


> I'd like to ask, if you can remember, which one have you attempted to enjoy the most?


I enjoyed #14 the most compared to the others.


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## violadude

DaDirkNL said:


> I enjoyed #14 the most compared to the others.


Oh sorry, I meant to get an idea for which one you enjoyed the least.


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## schuberkovich

One thing to bear in mind is that the slow movements of all the late quartets except op.130 are variation movements. Understanding this makes it easier to appreciate them - otherwise they can seem huge and unnavigable.

That being said, I became truly hooked on the late quartets due to this movement:





I don't see anything wrong with listening to single movements to get used to the whole work. The above movement still remains one of my favourite. I think it has the best climax and coda of any piece of music.


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## DaDirkNL

violadude said:


> Oh sorry, I meant to get an idea for which one you enjoyed the least.


Haha, no problem. Uhm, I think the least for me is #15.


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## PetrB

Ukko said:


> That reads like you are thinking about the music while trying to hear it. Stop that!


This is too right ! If you are thinking, "what am I supposed to be following, hearing," you will miss what you might hear. "Be a child again," i.e. don't worry about _the form,_ but instead just _follow the sound of what it is._

The equivalent of this is while listening to someone make a point or argument, your mind is instead already busy with formulating a response -- which means _you are no longer listening to the person who is speaking,_ so you actually miss what they were saying.

Musically, you are thinking about what you aren't getting vs. just hearing it for what it is. The more you bring expectations of 'how other pieces you are familiar with go,' whether that is form or harmonic language, or (usually) both, the more you will be missing what is there


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## RxCello

You may find that one or other of the late quartets just... comes to you, at some point. For me, Op. 130 is the one that is the most affecting (although I love them all). Something about it just _speaks_ to me. If I try to analyze it musically, I couldn't say why. (I have a B.A. in music, and I play both violin and cello, and the stuff still confounds me!) I agree with the above suggestion: don't think about it so much, just let the music play and it will eventually come to you and enter you. And how marvelous it is when that happens. (Sorry if this sounds somewhat disjointed -- trying to type this with the Kodály cello sonata blaring out of my speakers.)


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## Mandryka

DaDirkNL said:


> I enjoyed #14 the most compared to the others.


Me too. It is the most interesting of the quartets, maybe that's what you're saying.

I quite enjoy op 132 too, because of the story it tells. It begins with some terrible emotions, really nasty and full of trepidation. The second movement, with its short theme repeated over and over again is like some gnawing nagging worry. Everyone likes the third movement because it's so other-wordly, but Beethoven rejects its spirituality pretty conclusively: the fourth movement brings you straight back down to a very mundane world with a thump, and the central section reminds me of the terrible anxiety of the opening movement.

I don't know what to think about the jovial end, which seems prima facie as spurious as the vaudeville in Don Giovanni. And same for the Adagio molto. In context its tranquility is an illusion.

Op 130 is interesting to me mostly for the operatic parody in the cavatina, which I find funny. It's also interestng because of all the problems to do with the ending.


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## Quartetfore

All the ideas in this thread are excellent. My favorite late Quartets are the op.127 and the op.130. Though I have several sets and some single recordings of the late Quartets, it has taken me years to "get" the op132 and I am still discovering the greatness of these works.
I have found that for me the best way to hear what are for me new music is play it once just to get the form of the music, and then sit down and listen!


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## Ukko

I am surprised by the perceived difficulty of Op. 132. It was the easiest of the late SQs for me to get into. Following my SOP, I started with Op. 127 and listened to them - with one day breaks in between - in order of composition (127 - 132 - 130/133 - 131 - 135). I didn't get really comfortable with the 'bookends' until getting in some digestion time with the middle books. Well, 133 took awhile longer to tenderize.


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## Quartetfore

Ukko said:


> I am surprised by the perceived difficulty of Op. 132. It was the easiest of the late SQs for me to get into. Following my SOP, I started with Op. 127 and listened to them - with one day breaks in between - in order of composition (127 - 132 - 130/133 - 131 - 135). I didn't get really comfortable with the 'bookends' until getting in some digestion time with the middle books. Well, 133 took awhile longer to tenderize.


It was the long slow movement. Of all the 5 its still the op131 that is my least favorite. Its just a matter of taste I guess.


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## Vaneyes

Re "getting them", start with Op. 18 and proceed chronologically. Also, listen to Takacs recordings. :tiphat:


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## Quartetfore

Vaneyes said:


> Re "getting them", start with Op. 18 and proceed chronologically. Also, listen to Takacs recordings. :tiphat:


My very favorite set for the last 5.


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## Ukko

Quartetfore said:


> It was the long slow movement. Of all the 5 its still the op131 that is my least favorite. Its just a matter of taste I guess.


Maybe mindset helps. It isn't necessary now, but for awhile I took time to review in my head what I chose to consider as the progress-in-process that Beethoven was undertaking, and making that connection between works. That _before_ listening to any of the quartets in the series after 127. For me at least, 131 works as the next part of the process after 130/133.

Could be my philosophy is 'If you absolutely have to have a crutch, your rifle may do - just cap the muzzle first.'


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## KenOC

Quartetfore said:


> My very favorite set for the last 5.


The Takacs was the preferred integral set in a voting game on another forum. You can see comments on it as well as on 14 other cycles here. Note that this was a while ago and some prices have changed significantly.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/richpub/syltguides/fullview/R3T5Y25MLG0WZW/ref=cm_pdp_sylt_title_1


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## schuberkovich

I'm surprised too. I always found op.132 the easiest to appreciate - to me it is the most melodic and obviously beautiful. To me the hardest is definitely op.130 with the Grosse Fuge.


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## Quartetfore

schuberkovich said:


> I'm surprised too. I always found op.132 the easiest to appreciate - to me it is the most melodic and obviously beautiful. To me the hardest is definitely op.130 with the Grosse Fuge.


Interesting, for me the op.130 was the first of the "big three" that I understood and liked. I always listen to it with the second ending, I might listen to the Grosse Fuge once a year.


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## Ukko

Quartetfore said:


> Interesting, for me the op.130 was the first of the "big three" that I understood and liked. I always listen to it with the second ending, I might listen to the Grosse Fuge once a year.


Hmphh. If you always listen to 130 with the substitute finale, you don't understand 130.

[There b'god, that's a pretty good emulation of Tom Deacon, I think. Mr. Deacon doesn't post here, but he is famous in a certain newsgroup.]


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## Quartetfore

Never heard of him. He must be a rough dude.
QF.


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## csacks

I suffer the same experience that DaDirkNL describes. I have done some efforts, but until now, both the last quartets and the last piano sonatas are not with me. As I have told many times, I am not a musician, just a enthusiastic amateur of music. In the other hand, I have been in that field since a long time, so, since my deep ignorance, I have done some progress with other composition which where, at the beginning very difficult to get, and now are a little closer. But it is not the case with my dear Heroic Beethoven and my inscrutable late Beethoven. 
Thanks for the tips, I will try again, but it is nice to know that some others have the same problem.


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## hpowders

My favorite Beethoven quartet is the A Minor with the profound "Hymn of Thanksgiving" slow movement.
I see where Mahler got his slow movement inspiration.


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## bobsgrock

Since I have no musical ability or education, I tend to focus on what I can understand more readily, which happens to be history. So for pieces such as the Late Quartets (or anything Beethoven for that matter), I try to read about how and when they were composed, why and the impact they have had on musicians and audiences both in the 1820s and today. It gives me context, which at least for me, allows me to try and pinpoint certain spots where others have said they recognize genius and deep humanity. Ultimately, all you can do is listen. But if you realize that these were written by an increasingly frail, deaf, isolated man whose life continued to disappoint him, you may begin to understand it in a totally different, albeit non-musical, way. These aren't just pieces orchestrated for four strings; they're statements on the most profound understanding of human suffering and experience.


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## julianoq

A "different" tip that may work for you is to watch the movie 'A Late Quartet', a great movie with Philip Seymour Hoffman and Christopher Walken (his best performance imo) that tells the story of a string quartet when they are rehearsing to perform Beethoven's String Quartet No.14 Op. 131. When I watched it I was already hooked in the late quartets, but it made this quartet even more special to me.


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## Chordalrock

I would recommend trying following the sheet music while you're listening to them. It helps with concentration, perception, and giving you an idea of where the music is going.

If you've never read music, it's not difficult to learn to a point where you can use this method. You don't have to be able to follow everything and it still helps.

Admittedly, I've mainly used this method with Renaissance choral music -- and I only like some of the stuff in Beethoven's late quartets. I guess I should follow my own advice and use it with the Beethoven as well.


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## DaDirkNL

Chordalrock said:


> I would recommend trying following the sheet music while you're listening to them. It helps with concentration, perception, and giving you an idea of where the music is going.
> 
> If you've never read music, it's not difficult to learn to a point where you can use this method. You don't have to be able to follow everything and it still helps.
> 
> Admittedly, I've mainly used this method with Renaissance choral music -- and I only like some of the stuff in Beethoven's late quartets. I guess I should follow my own advice and use it with the Beethoven as well.


I can read music. Thanks for the tip.


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## Chordalrock

I read and listened thru numbers 12, 15, and 16. It's rather odd music that's for sure. The third movement of number 12 in E flat major has long been a favorite of mine, but you need a recording where the fast section is played with sufficient drive. This time I could focus on and enjoyed the second movement as well. The first movement had some nice passages and the last movement was kind of nice and had a short reminiscence of a passage from one of the symphonies, I forget which. Overall my favorite of the three quartets.


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## SONNET CLV

Don't overlook reading along with the score when listening to a string quartet, especially a late Beethoven quartet. The score will reveal nooks and crannies that your ear will miss, and generally reading the score along with listening to the music provides a much richer experience. And you needn't a lot of experience to follow the four lines of a string quartet score. 

The Beethoven quartet scores are readily available on line if you don't happen to have them in your library at home. Try looking at a score while you listen.


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## DaDirkNL

SONNET CLV said:


> Don't overlook reading along with the score when listening to a string quartet, especially a late Beethoven quartet. The score will reveal nooks and crannies that your ear will miss, and generally reading the score along with listening to the music provides a much richer experience. And you needn't a lot of experience to follow the four lines of a string quartet score.
> 
> The Beethoven quartet scores are readily available on line if you don't happen to have them in your library at home. Try looking at a score while you listen.


Funny that you should mention this. Just recently I purchased the scores of the late string quartets, and I am awaiting their arrival.


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