# Beethoven: String Quartet No. 16 in F, Op. 135



## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

How do you experience the 16th quartet by Beethoven? I am most fascinated by it!

Especially the 2nd Movement, Vivace, is quite extraordinary, scary and intimidating even. I sense in it the composer feeling the presence of "the beyond", some other dimension leaking into this existence.

I really concentrated on it the first time on November by a huge lake (some time ago). It was totally dark, there was no wind, and the lake kilometres wide was totally invisible although I stood a meter from it. So it was just my knowledge that there was a huge lake right next to me. Nothing else indicated the presence of the huge body of water and space. The Vivace was playing on my earphones. Very rarely I experience something as strongly as I did then.

For me it is hard to believe that somebody has been able to express things like this through music. It encourages me to never give up and never to underestimate the possibilities of communication through art.

Anyone feel in a somewhat similar way when listening to the 16th String Quartet? Anyone perceive the 2nd Movement as special? It is existencially most meaningful and unbelievably expressive music which seems to transcend this reality.


From 8:35 starts the Vivace in the Hagen Quartet clip below! That is also a great performance of it. Any suggestions on recordings? (Again, ABQ is a bad version in my opinion and denied me the full experience.) I have a great version by the Amadeus Quartet.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

You might find this discussion interesting:









Weekly quartet. Just a music lover perspective.


Merl, glad to see that you enjoyed the Emerson performance. The Emerson SQ and Tokyo SQ played at Ravinia (the summer home of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra) many times and I was lucky enough to be there for most of them. Are they two of my favorite quartets because I saw them live so many times...




www.talkclassical.com


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

And for all those who do not believe it is possible to be by a lake kilometres wide in total darkness (whilst listening to some serious Beethoven), just have a look at this satellite image.  The lakes are much larger and more numerous than the major cities. The width of the photo is over 300km and most of the country is wilderness.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

The 16th is a very special quartet and, like you Waehnan, I do love that quirky 2nd movement and the 4th 'difficult decision'. Whilst I don't get the same mental picture as the OP I do feel it's a superbly crafted movement and recalls the same sort of orchestral string writing employed in Beethoven's symphonies. I hear firm parallels here between the quartet and his 7th Symphony. Using unison lower strings in quick measure almost gives a 'running' feeling (I used to picture a cheetah chasing its prey across the African plain) and those jarring decrescendos give it that 'menacing' feel you mention. The final movement is a firm favourite too and is just as mesmeric to me. I must admit that great recordings of this quartet have to play the hell out of the 2nd and 4th movements for me but others, I'm sure, feel differently.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Merl said:


> The 16th is a very special quartet and, like you Waehnan, I do love that quirky 2nd movement and the 4th 'difficult decision'. Whilst I don't get the same mental picture as the OP I do feel it's a superbly crafted movement and recalls the same sort of orchestral string writing employed in Beethoven's symphonies. I hear firm parallels here between the quartet and his 7th Symphony. Using unison lower strings in quick measure almost gives a 'running' feeling (I used to picture a cheetah chasing its prey across the African plain) and those jarring decrescendos give it that 'menacing' feel you mention. The final movement is a firm favourite too and is just as mesmeric to me. I must admit that great recordings of this quartet have to play the hell out of the 2nd and 4th movements for me but others, I'm sure, feel differently.


Thanks, Merl! Which recordings would you recommend where they play the hell out of the 2nd and 4th Movements?


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## bagpipers (Jun 29, 2013)

The Guarneri is utterly ethereal and magical.

You never loose with the Budapest if you can find a recording.

The Alban Berg is always divine with Beethoven of coarse.


The Julliard is very precise and exact but musically dry a bit,same on the Emerson which I think is disbanding this year.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Waehnen said:


> Thanks, Merl! Which recordings would you recommend where they play the hell out of the 2nd and 4th Movements?


Have a look at my comments below but I've just played that Zehetmair recording on ECM again and it's still something else.

Beethoven - String Quartet 16 op. 135


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

I've always heard this quartet as a rollicking comedy, especially the finale.

As for lakes at night: If the lake isn't making itself known, the problem might be the earphones.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

EdwardBast said:


> I've always heard this quartet as a rollicking comedy, especially the finale.
> 
> As for lakes at night: If the lake isn't making itself known, the problem might be the earphones.


Trust me, most of the time I am without the earphones by the lake and the quartet does not last for a whole weekend.  But there were absolutely no waves at the time. Quite magical!

It is interesting people hear humour in the quartet. For me the breaking of the norms represents breaking the boundaries of the human cognition rather than humour. David Lynchy stuff, you know.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Waehnen said:


> How do you experience the 16th quartet by Beethoven? I am most fascinated by it!
> 
> Especially the 2nd Movement, Vivace, is quite extraordinary, scary and intimidating even. I sense in it the composer feeling the presence of "the beyond", some other dimension leaking into this existence.
> 
> ...


This is very close to what European philosophers in the 18th century called The Sublime. The distinctive feeling which occurs when you are struck by natural grandeur in such a way that you become aware of your own own smallness and insignificance by comparison. I don’t know whether Beethoven was aware of these philosophical concepts.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Mandryka said:


> This is very close to what European philosophers in the 18th century called The Sublime. The distinctive feeling which occurs when you are struck by natural grandeur in such a way that you become aware of your own own smallness and insignificance by comparison. I don’t know whether Beethoven was aware of these philosophical concepts.


I would like to talk more about this aspect of the sublime vs the humour.

Both humour and the sublime break the conventions of the everyday life and bring an existencial dimension into the being.

It would seem that many have interpreted the norm-breaking elements of this quartet as humour whereas I have never heard any humour in the piece but the sublime/beyond breaking into the consciousness/cognition of ageing Beethoven.

There are moments of this ’breaking’ in every movement and for me there is nothing to laugh at or be amused about. I am sure some of you must grasp what I hear.

Or would you like me to point out the ”breaking points”? I would love to get myself this score.

What a gorgeous existencial piece of music!


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Waehnen said:


> Trust me, most of the time I am without the earphones by the lake and the quartet does not last for a whole weekend.  But there were absolutely no waves at the time. Quite magical!
> 
> It is interesting people hear humour in the quartet. For me the breaking of the norms represents breaking the boundaries of the human cognition rather than humour. David Lynchy stuff, you know.


I find lots of wit in this quartet but it does boil down to recordings too. Even the slow movement feels tenderly nostalgic and not melancholy. In the first two movements I always feel that Beethoven is toying with the listener and the vivace sounds more witty - I almost think he's referring back to the earlier quartets (as if he's saying "this is a bit like my older stuff but look how I've developed it"). Remember, the second half of the finale can be repeated (the Endellion quartet do this as do a few others) as Beethoven wrote "_Si repete la seconda parte al suo piacere_” (which, I believe means “You may repeat this as you like — _if you dare!_“). This is Beethoven's sarcastic humour and its smattered across the finale. Listen to how he finishes the movement too with that lovely little pizzicato section as a direct nod to Haydn. As I said, if you don't see the humour in the 16th quartet it may be down to recordings. The best ones are full of it (check the Prazak for the first two movements and the Vegh in the finale). They both seem to 'get' Beethoven's humour to my ears.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Merl said:


> I find lots of wit in this quartet but it does boil down to recordings too. Even the slow movement feels tenderly nostalgic and not melancholy. In the first two movements I always feel that Beethoven is toying with the listener and the vivace sounds more witty - I almost think he's referring back to the earlier quartets (as if he's saying "this is a bit like my older stuff but look how I've developed it"). Remember, the second half of the finale can be repeated (the Endellion quartet do this as do a few others) as Beethoven wrote "_Si repete la seconda parte al suo piacere_” (which, I believe means “You may repeat this as you like — _if you dare!_“). This is Beethoven's sarcastic humour and its smattered across the finale. Listen to how he finishes the movement too with that lovely little pizzicato section as a direct nod to Haydn. As I said, if you don't see the humour in the 16th quartet it may be down to recordings. The best ones are full of it (check the Prazak for the first two movements and the Vegh in the finale). They both seem to 'get' Beethoven's humour to my ears.


Maybe I have to admit there is humour in Beethoven as well! But I would like to think that like David Lynch he is playing and balancing on the thin line between humour and the very very serious. You cannot always tell for sure which is which.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I am not sure if the Vivace is a good/typical example for the "sublime". As said above, the sublime is the aesthetic experience of the infinite; Kant's standard example is the starry sky, but mighty mountains, sea storms etc. are others where it is always important that one admires displays of vastness or indefinite power that could destroy oneself without actually being in danger (otherwise the fear would probably overwhelm the aesthetic experience). 
The trio section of the Vivace might be closer to the "grotesque", it has been compared to an atavistic primeval dance. The common thing with the sublime might be that a "foreign" element breaks in, something to odd or horrible or primeval to be articulated in the standard language of the art.

In any case a striking thing about this quartet that's true for a lot of (not only late) Beethoven (and I think, some Haydn and I found it also in the Britten 1st quartet) is to have "sublime" (in the wider sense) movements like the slow movement and shortish, humorous, bordering on the folksy or trivial (like the 2nd mvmt. and finale) side by side.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Kreisler jr said:


> I am not sure if the Vivace is a good/typical example for the "sublime". As said above, the sublime is the aesthetic experience of the infinite; Kant's standard example is the starry sky, but mighty mountains, sea storms etc. are others where it is always important that one admires displays of vastness or indefinite power that could destroy oneself without actually being in danger (otherwise the fear would probably overwhelm the aesthetic experience).
> The trio section of the Vivace might be closer to the "grotesque", it has been compared to an atavistic primeval dance. The common thing with the sublime might be that a "foreign" element breaks in, something to odd or horrible or primeval to be articulated in the standard language of the art.
> 
> In any case a striking thing about this quartet that's true for a lot of (not only late) Beethoven (and I think, some Haydn and I found it also in the Britten 1st quartet) is to have "sublime" (in the wider sense) movements like the slow movement and shortish, humorous, bordering on the folksy or trivial (like the 2nd mvmt. and finale) side by side.


You are absolutely correct that the Vivace trio leaks into ”the other” through the grotesque! A bit like Otto Dix in his Neue Sachlickeit paintings.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I am not sure if it "leaks". The first movement is the most ambigous of the work, I think. But even without this the sequence "vivace - lento -finale" where again we don't quite know how serious "Der schwer gefasste Entschluss" is supposed to be taken and where the second subject seems a folky ditty certainly makes extreme contrasts. But Beethoven did similar or even more extreme contrasts in pieces like op.110 or 130-132, or even in the moonlight sonata...


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Here´s my controversial classical music opinion: those who think the 16th String Quartet is humorous, are dead wrong! It is one dead serious work. A most remarkable piece of existential art and expressionism in music. The idea that it would somehow be humorous undermines the sublime force of the music. Grotesque, yes; sublime, yes -- humourous, never.


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

Waehnen said:


> The idea that it would somehow be humorous undermines the sublime force of the music.


I don't see why sublimity should rule out humour?


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Waehnen said:


> Here´s my controversial classical music opinion: those who think the 16th String Quartet is humorous, are dead wrong! It is one dead serious work. A most remarkable piece of excistencial art and expressionism in music. The idea that it would somehow be humorous undermines the sublime force of the music. Grotesque, yes; sublime, yes -- humourous, never.


I agree with you. I think that there's plenty of wit and good humour to be found in Beethoven (check the early piano sonatas for example - the rondo of Op. 2 no. 2 comes to mind), but I won't look for them in the late string quartets, composed when he was stone deaf, mortally ill and frustrated by his disastrous relationship with his nephew, Karl. Even if some passages of Op. 135 may resemble a kind of comedy in the surface, I think that in a deeper level the piece is actually very serious in tone. It's not unusual that I weep while listening to this quartet.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Xisten267 said:


> I agree with you. I think that there's plenty of wit and good humour to be found in Beethoven (check the early piano sonatas for example - the rondo of Op. 2 no. 2 comes to mind), but I won't look for them in the late string quartets, composed when he was stone deaf, mortally ill and frustrated by his disastrous relationship with his nephew, Karl.


Beethoven probably never was stone deaf, he was not or certainly didn't know he was "mortally ill" (he was ill frequently but recovered and no particular reason not to expect to live another 5 or 10 years) but even if this was true, it would hardly follow that these things would some dominate the expression of the late quartets. This music is far too varied for such direct connections.

I agree with RobertJTh that humour does not exclude sublimity and vice versa. The slow movement is certainly serious but I think the others, especially the finale are quite ambiguous and certainly contain some humour. He wrote this "Der schwer gefasste Entschluss" (roughly "the tough decision") into the music and the main part of the movement is just too obviously funny for me take this completely seriously.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Kreisler jr said:


> Beethoven probably never was stone deaf, he was not or certainly didn't know he was "mortally ill" (he was ill frequently but recovered and no particular reason not to expect to live another 5 or 10 years) but even if this was true, it would hardly follow that these things would some dominate the expression of the late quartets. This music is far too varied for such direct connections.


By the end of his life, Beethoven was completely deaf in his right ear and could hear a bit only if someone shouted next to his left ear. He was often ill and by 1816 was already writting that he frequently thought about death and that he didn't fear it. So I think he was aware that he might not live much more when composing the late quartets. I agree that they are rich in varied expression but I don't think that wit was a major goal for him while creating them.



Kreisler jr said:


> I agree with RobertJTh that humour does not exclude sublimity and vice versa. The slow movement is certainly serious but I think the others, especially the finale are quite ambiguous and certainly contain some humour. He wrote this "Der schwer gefasste Entschluss" (roughly "the tough decision") into the music and the main part of the movement is just too obviously funny for me take this completely seriously.


I think that superficially the last quartet may look funny, but I interpret it as actually being very sad.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Thanks for the discussion! I will put here a few reference points from a Youtube video which is linked to at the bottom. You can check the times from the pictures. I have put the points of emphasis inside green markings in the pictures.

People who think those passages from the *1st Movement* are humorous are wrong. The passage refers to the "fragmentation or disintegration of the reality" which is a key idea of the 2nd Movement. I am of the belief that this kind of deterioration of tonality through the usage of the tritone is a key element in the Sibelius´ 4th Symphony as well. I have no doubt this quartet inspired Sibelius in his symphony which expresses similar things.











People who think this passage starting in the picture from the *2nd Movement *is humourous are wrong. It is the key element of the disintegration of reality expressed in this quartet. It is grotesque and frightening music.












People who think those chords in the *3rd movement *are a joke or humourous are wrong. They refer to the "existential chords" of the finale.











Those who think these existential and painful chords of the *4th movement *are funny and humorous, are simply wrong! Even the more traditional melodies have the same twisted atmosphere to them as in the "happy movement melodies" from the Sibelius´ 4th Symphony,










I believe the 2nd and 3rd Movements are the core movements. The 1st Movement is the prelude. The 4th movement is the postlude. Like stated above with the examples, the 1st movement prepares the "disintegrations" of the 2nd Movement and the 3rd movement plants the seeds of the "existential chords" on which the 4th movement elaborates.

Like Xisten267, I believe Beethoven sensed that the end was coming. This quartet is the expression of the other world lurking behind the reality, disintegrating the everyday life, taking away the comfort. Still Beethoven seeks comfort in this quartet in a very heartfelt manner.


*Ludwig van Beethoven - String Quartet No. 16, Op. 135*
Youtube link


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

In my post above I have given musical arguments indicating that the quartet is very serious. Now I would like to hear musical arguments that would indicate this quartet is humorous -- because I have never been able to hear anything humorous in it, ever. So I am truly interested in whether someone can convince me on the matter.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Waehnen, I doubt anyone is going to convince you otherwise as that's how YOU, personally, hear this wonderful piece. I don't! Is this a serious work? Well of course it is but to dismiss his use of humour throughout the quartet, for me, is way off the mark. Good humor involves having a sense of irony, and appreciation of ambiguities. Do you really believe Beethoven had no sense of humour as he approached the end of his life? Many of his students and friends have provided a high volume of anecdotal evidence of his very particular sense of humour right until the very end (Ries, Czerny, Holz, Shuppanzigh, etc). Remember this is a guy who used to hide behind doors and jump out with a "Boo"! Had he really lost all his humour when he got to the end? Well not according to Holz and Czerny in particular. Listen to that ending and how, after a few slow and questioning repeats of _Es muss sein_, all four strings start playing pizzicato, as though they are tiptoeing out of the room before coming back for the bold ending. Can you not see any humour there? If the movement is about how to resolve your own immortality, then what is to say that Beethoven is facing his own death by overturning fear or arguably turning it into joy but for me it's not about that. We don't know for sure what it really _is_ all about because Beethoven never said but I still think Beethoven would be enjoying leaving us guessing. As I said previously, personally, I still see a lot of paradoxical humour in that scherzo and joyful playfulness in the final movement . Here's just a few professionals / string quartet ensembles who agree....

"The second movement is a quicksilver scherzo. The parts at the beginning stage a rhythmic comic act, ill-fitting and awkward, everyone sitting on the wrong beat, then suddenly falling heavily onto a unison E-flat that is also off the beat, stuck in the wrong meter for awhile before righting itself (sort of).... (Brentano Quartet)

Later they go on to say of the finale..

"Then follows the main Allegro section, joyful and affirmative, marked “Es muss sein!” — it must be! Two-thirds of this movement then unroll with barely a cloud on the horizon. All is happiness, high jinks, carefree melody, playfulness.. " (Brentano Quartet)

"The scherzo is rife with rhythmic jokes likely to convince players that they are counting wrong, or that the composer is off his rocker. The four parts tug at each other in four different rhythms or get together to run up and down and stop for no good reason.. "
(John Mangum - Artistic Director LA Philharmonic)

" Whatever the case, it’s a brilliant finale. The opening is full of tension (somewhat humorous, given the context?) as the “Muss es sein?” motive is enigmatically shared between the instruments. The ensuing Allegro is playful, joyful and features a simple but endlessly useful theme for Beethoven to spin out his musical ideas. We toggle between the home F major up to A major and down to D major.... " (New Orford Quartet)

".... It is as_ though Beethoven is laughing at himself and at his audience for taking this little _motif _so seriously, and making such a mystery out of his whimsical_ Muss es sein?_ which was no enigma at all!" (de Marliave 'The Beethoven Quartets' 1928)

"the comedy, which is so apparent in the Allegro, already starts in the “Muss es sein?” introduction, imagining characters from commedia dell’arte.. ." (Kerman 'Beethoven's Quartets 1966)_

"..._ Here as for the greatest literary artists, above all his beloved Shakespeare, comedy is not a lesser form than tragedy but is its true counterpart, the celebration of the human in all things.”_
(Beethoven scholar, Lewis, Lockwood - 'Beethoven - The Music and the Life' 2003)

"The Allegro has by some commentators being characterised as either “ironic” or “forced”, but in my eyes the completely honestly good-natured second theme certainly excludes the former idea, even if the recurring _“Es muss sein!” _statements have a certain touch of jauntiness. If it is forced, it is in the most humorous way. And the little coda marks the ending (and indeed the whole piece), twinkly-eyed and humorous as it might be, with honesty and kindness.... "
(Martin Saving, Elias String Quartet - 'The Beethoven Project)

" No one listening to this profoundly spiritual music could suspect that it was based on so mundane a matter as money; but as an example of Beethoven's down-to-earth sense of humour, the paradox is altogether typical"
(Misha Donat - writer, lecturer and former BBC Radio 3 producer)

"The finale reacts with an indescribable blend of fun, humour and seriousness, quoting the joke phrase Beethoven wrote..."
(Robert Simpson - composer)

"The humorous side of Beethoven's personality seeps into his music such as in his Quartet in F, Op. 135, where more hijinks ensue in the Vivace and the music becomes completely berserk..."
(Nicholas Kitchen - Borromeo Quartet)

Tbh, I could keep going and give you quotes from a host of string quartets who have discussed this piece but I can't be bothered (this post has taken too long as it is) but I would suggest that your interpretation seems at odds with all the above (nothing wrong with that - it's your personal reaction to the music) as these ensembles (below) reference the humour in this quartet in either their sleeve notes or program notes... ..

Takacs
Ebene
Miro
St Lawrence
Ehnes
Pacifica
Daedalus
Guarneri
Tokyo
Escher
Danish
........

I ran out of patience looking after that, tbh (and Mrs Merl was moaning at me to finish a job) , but I suspect I could find at least another 20 if I looked tonight. I know what you're driving at, Waehnen, but I still don't hear it how you do. I doubt we hear the other quartets the same too. A personal reaction is just that.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Merl said:


> Waehnen, I doubt anyone is going to convince you otherwise as that's how YOU, personally, hear this wonderful piece. I don't! Is this a serious work? Well of course it is but to dismiss his use of humour throughout the quartet, for me, is way off the mark. Good humor involves having a sense of irony, and appreciation of ambiguities. Do you really believe Beethoven had no sense of humour as he approached the end of his life? Many of his students and friends have provided a high volume of anecdotal evidence of his very particular sense of humour right until the very end (Ries, Czerny, Holz, Shuppanzigh, etc). Remember this is a guy who used to hide behind doors and jump out with a "Boo"! Had he really lost all his humour when he got to the end? Well not according to Holz and Czerny in particular. Listen to that ending and how, after a few slow and questioning repeats of _Es muss sein_, all four strings start playing pizzicato, as though they are tip-toeing. Can you not see any humour there? If the movement is about how to resolve your own immortality, then what is to say that Beethoven is facing his own death by overturning fear or arguably turning it into joy but for me it's not about that. We don't know for sure what it really _is_ all about because Beethoven never said but I still think Beethoven would be enjoying leaving us guessing. As I said previously, personally, I still see a lot of paradoxical humour in that scherzo and joyful playfulness in the final movement . Here's just a few professionals / string quartet ensembles who agree....
> 
> "The second movement is a quicksilver scherzo. The parts at the beginning stage a rhythmic comic act, ill-fitting and awkward, everyone sitting on the wrong beat, then suddenly falling heavily onto a unison E-flat that is also off the beat, stuck in the wrong meter for awhile before righting itself (sort of).... (Brentano Quartet)
> 
> ...


Thanks, Merl! It was from you in this very same thread that I first heard that this quartet has been widely considered humorous. I admit I was kind of shocked. That kind of interpretation had never crossed my mind. Whenever I hear the piece I am always instantly convinced that this is some serious stuff.

Of course I recognize that Beethoven was also a playful character and there are playful aspects about the quartet -- just like there are playful aspects about life. But for people to really see nothing else of equal importance in this masterpiece than, "oh it is humorous and playful"... That I really really cannot fathom.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

So Beethoven was sometimes ailing, mostly deaf and had on/off trouble with the nephew for the last 10 years of his life. It hardly follows that a) these conditions were dominating his life (some time they were, mostly not) and much less b) that the 4 last sonatas, 5 quartets, Missa solemnis, 9th symphony and Diabellis are therefore in some way heavily influenced by or about sickness and death. 

Even if we doubt several apparently humorous movements/passages from this or other works, the Diabellis are dominated by humour as many variations clearly are almost mockery of the silly theme.

I think there is also some misunderstanding what humour means. It does not just mean silly joking. It could be bitter irony (I don't think that's the case here). It could be thundering or maniac laughter, like maybe some passages in the 8th symphony. Such a mania seems to break out in the trio; I wouldn't call it typical humour, but it's not really "dark" either
For me, the very rare occurence that Beethoven titled a movement and wrote these question - answer phrases underneath the music, seems an indication that there is something odd going on. The "grave" just seems too exaggerated to be taken completely seriously. And if especially the 2nd theme of the finale, like a folksy ditty is not humorous, I don't know what is. 
I also don't think that the title is relevant for the whole quartet. It seems only refer to the finale.
I also agree that the first movement is not really humorous and too ambiguous to be considered mostly "serene". The slow movement is very beautiful and sublime but not dark or "tragic". (Interestingly, no late quartet except the completely different op.131 has a slow movement in the minor mode.)


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Waehnen said:


> Thanks, Merl! It was from you in this very same thread that I first heard that this quartet has been widely considered humorous. I admit I was kind of shocked. That kind of interpretation had never crossed my mind. Whenever I hear the piece I am always instantly convinced that this is some serious stuff.
> 
> Of course I recognize that Beethoven was also a playful character and there are playful aspects about the quartet -- just like there are playful aspects about life. But for people to really see nothing else of equal importance in this masterpiece than, "oh it is humorous and playful"... That I really really cannot fathom.


Tbh, I doubt many people just see only the humour in the 16th. Certainly I've read that a few quartets refer to the "gallows humour" in here but I still can't feel it. I've seen this quartet performed a few times live and in the preamble I do recall the Endellion Quartet discussing different ways of approaching this quartet. If I recall they played it more slowly and with more 'darkness' than the Takacs did and it did have a different sound and feel but it was still much the same. I've seen similar things written about Beethoven's 4th Symphony and people's interpretation of it. As long as you enjoy it it hardly matters. I've had similar experiences of different interpretation with the children I teach at school. I played them Jupiter from the Planets and in the listening feedback I got on the carpet the range of feelings expressed was interesting. A few children used adjectives such as 'scary", quite a few expressed the opinion that the 'big choon' was "very sad'" and actually very few of them thought it was uplifting or had anything to do with 'jollity'. I know this isnt the same, as we are more seasoned listeners (rather than 9 year olds) but I found the range of adjectives really exciting (we teachers buzz off that sort of ****).


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

It is a mistake to think that humor, emotion, or other forms of human expression are inherent qualities of music, as intended by the composer. No. They are brought to the listening experience by the subjective cognition of the listener.

Merl's example demonstrates the point: the children haven't learned what reactions they're supposed to have to "Jupiter" from Holst's _The Planets_, so their honest, naive reactions are all over the map.

In other words, Stravinsky was correct when he wrote that "music is powerless to express anything." Emotional reactions are ingrained through established cultural norms and shared experience.

As such, it is absolutely futile to "prove" a piece of music is humorous or not.

Many pieces intended by the composer to be humorous are not, and many pieces meant to be serious receive humorous reactions. What matters is the experience of the individual listener, and that is and will always be totally subjective.

Having written all of that, it is a mainstream reaction for listeners to hear humor in at least some moments of Beethoven's Op. 135, and I am certainly among them.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

If Op. 135 is a comedy, then it must be the saddest comedy I've ever listened to. Note that the "it's all about a joke on Dembscher" interpretation can't really explain the third movement, one of Beethoven's most heartbreaking and sublime in my view.

"As he began writing the Op. 135 quartet, Beethoven knew it would be his last: he was very conscious of the moment in his life if not the moment in the history of the world. 
(...)
The _Lento_ sings a simple, sacred song confirming (yet again) that, in the sentiments of musicologist Michael Steinberg, Beethoven was the greatest author of adagios in the entire Western tradition. The longest movement in the quartet, it immediately recalls both the _Cavatina_ and the 'Song of the Thanksgiving' of the previous late quartets. Stark, hymn-like, humble and deep, it will slowly and perfectly break your heart. At its center lies the enigmatically dark and primordial brooding with a sharp stab of tragedy that, through its craggy mystery, seems to suggest that we are eavesdropping on Beethoven's most private ruminations. But then there is light, as the old wheezing hymn rises again, a supplication of aching beauty with cello as new lead, joined in canon by a violin who then sings a final, tender lullaby as one by one, the stars disappear.
(...)
Melvin Berger relays that Beethoven sent this touching note to the publisher along with the final manuscript for Op. 135:

'Here, my dear friend, is my last quartet. It will be the last; and indeed it has given me much trouble. For I could not bring myself to compose the last movement. But as your letters were reminding me of it, in the end I decided to compose it. And that is the reason why I have written the motto: 'The difficult decision—Must it be? —It must be, it must be!''" - source here.


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## Tarneem (Jan 3, 2022)

this quartet filled with a lot of bitter sweet moment

cannot whenever I hear it I remember the tragedy that happened between him and between his nephew...


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Merl said:


> Listen to that ending and how, after a few slow and questioning repeats of _Es muss sein_, all four strings start playing pizzicato, as though they are tiptoeing out of the room before coming back for the bold ending. Can you not see any humour there?


I listened to the pizzicato section again. The gesture is something that often would be described as playful (were it Haydn for example), but I really do not hear it as humorous. It is actually a very clever reference to the 1st movement and the "deterioration passage" of which I had a picture in my previous post. The musical texture and theme "disintegrates", this time through the alienating pizzicato technique and even the high register staccato on top of it, referring to the 1st movement indeed.










@Kreisler jr , could you please point to me what is the humorous second theme of the finale? Do you mean music that starts with the Allegro in the picture below? If this is not humorous then you do not know what is? I really do not hear any humour in it. It is graceful music and it bears resemblance to the first Rasumovsky Quartet movement in the same key, especially the cello line. So my interpretation would be that Beethoven looks back and "tries to do the Rasumovsky" but first the existential chords disrupt the effort, and later even the disintegration comes at play again (with the pizzicato and the high staccato violin).










A lot of wise words have been said on this thread and I am really not opposing to the fact that humour is indeed a very wide concept and phenomenon. Not everything graceful, beautiful and light on the surface level is humorous, though. Not everything that is grotesque is humour. Not everything that is twisted is humour. When it comes to the 2nd Movement, I can well picture Beethoven at the same time being extremely serious and even frightened about the "grotesque repetition passage" and maybe later laughing in disbelief, muttering to himself: "Oh my, I would love to see them trying to figure this out. Many will think it is humour. Well, let them think."









Then again, how could a performing string quartet talk about the complex meanings of a piece of art like this? It is only natural that humour is the easiest level to talk about. Everyone in the audience understands what is humour. So humour it is. Let´s go with that. A story line is formed and repeated over decades.


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

The humour, or lack of it, is evident only in the space between the ears of the listeners and I will never be able to assimilate what another listener hears just as they will not hear what I hear.

Notes on a staff will not, imv, help one jot - perhaps Beethoven should have written the instruction 'Geben Sie dem Publikum Humor' on the score 
I jest!
Interesting thread though.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

I am going to be honest: When I was a young child, I watched Dora the Explorer, and the Vivace brings to mind Swiper the Fox (or a sneaky/mischevious character getting away with minor/harmless villany like setting up a prank or stealing food from a picnic).


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

ORigel said:


> I am going to be honest: When I was a young child, I watched Dora the Explorer, and the Vivace brings to mind Swiper the Fox (or a sneaky/mischevious character getting away with minor/harmless villany like setting up a prank or stealing food from a picnic).


I also admit that last night after reading the 'Stupid Ideas for Threads' I was on such a humorous mood that while we later listened to the Op. 135 Quartet, the gesture of the 2nd Movement marked in the photo below made me laugh out loud. And it still does bring a smile on my face.










So yes, a lot of the humour is in the mind of the listener! Because I can hear the same gesture as frightening, mad and grotesque -- but yesterday it all of a sudden was humorous because I was on such a humorous mood.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Stravinsky is simply wrong, I fear. For most of musical history, virtually everybody, both musicians and listeners agreed that music was "expressive" or "meaningful". _And if everyone thinks this is so, this makes it true_. Because this is not a fact about some external world where everyone could be wrong (like geocentrism) _but it is a way (maybe the only one) to generate "meaning" of symbols in the first place_. 
Similarly. "random symbol combinations" like "hut" don't "by themselves" correspond to a certain sound and meaning but in fact they do "by convention" in alphabet representations of natural languages. ("hut" _really_ means a kind of building in English and a kind of headgear in German (pronounced "hoot")).

Of course, music is more ambiguous; it is not exactly like symbolic language. Edward Bast has written about it in the forum and linked to some scholarly papers how one can understand how music can have sth. like "expressive meaning" (my term, not exactly sure if they use the same).

The "funny theme" I meant in the last movement is the one starting 8-9 bars after the A major signature, basically the 2nd 8 bar phrase of the "2nd theme". If the later pizzicato presentation in the coda is a connection to another movement, this doesn't preclude at all a humorous effect.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Kreisler jr said:


> The "funny theme" I meant in the last movement is the one starting 8-9 bars after the A major signature, basically the 2nd 8 bar phrase of the "2nd theme". If the later pizzicato presentation in the coda is a connection to another movement, this doesn't preclude at all a humorous effect.


OK so you meant the theme which I refer to as the "Rasumovsky theme" and which is later alienated through the pizzicato (which you interpret as humour, I interpret as alienation). This theme I do not find funny at all but gorgeous.











Maybe the key word to this discussion is provided by others than myself and it is _ambiguousness. _It seems to me that we all agree there are strongly ambiguous elements in this quartet, many of them _grotesque,_ _disintegrating, alienating _or _symbolic signals_. Those are the things that shift the music outside just being beautiful, graceful, sweet and gentle. When a composer uses the techniques of the ambiguous, the interpretation is inevitably left to the performers and listeners.

The norms are broken and the listeners are forced to ask the question: "Why are the norms broken?" Humour is all about the norms being broken. It is very natural for us humans to laugh at the unexpected. But of course laughing is not the only way to react to the unexpected.

I would suggest for us to agree upon this: The 16th Beethoven Quartet is ambiguous in character. Some interpret the grotesque, disintegration, alienation and symbolic signals as means of humour. Some think the aforementioned techniques express something existentially tragic. Some think both interpretations can be correct depending on the situation and the mental state and orientation of the performers and the listeners.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Have you watched the Parloff lectures on the quartets, Waehnen? The one on op.135 starts at around 39 minutes on this video.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Merl said:


> Have you watched the Parloff lectures on the quartets, Waehnen? The one on op.135 starts at around 39 minutes on this video.


I have not. In your own words, how do you think I would benefit from this lecture?


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Waehnen said:


> Here´s my controversial classical music opinion: those who think the 16th String Quartet is humorous, are dead wrong! It is one dead serious work. A most remarkable piece of existential art and expressionism in music. The idea that it would somehow be humorous undermines the sublime force of the music. Grotesque, yes; sublime, yes -- humourous, never.


Musical humor can be subtle and not everyone will get it. The humorous aspects of Op. 135 aren't particularly subtle, especially in the off-kilter conversations of the first movement. Other wonderful comedies include the Quartet Op. 59 #3 and the Piano Sonata Op. 31 #3. Movements of a dark, pathetic, or mysterious character are not out of place in Beethoven's comic works, like the lovely minor-mode Menuetto of of Op. 31 #3 or the ghostly, strange slow movement of Op 59 #3. Then there's the case of the Sonata Op 10 #3, which buries one of the darkest movements Beethoven ever wrote amid other lighthearted or humorous ones, like the sonata's finale.



Waehnen said:


> People who think those passages from the *1st Movement* are humorous are wrong. The passage refers to the "fragmentation or disintegration of the reality" which is a key idea of the 2nd Movement. *I am of the belief that this kind of deterioration of tonality through the usage of the tritone* is a key element in the Sibelius´ 4th Symphony as well. I have no doubt this quartet inspired Sibelius in his symphony which expresses similar things.


Where did you get this odd idea that tritones have something to do with the deterioration of tonality? The tritone is the most quintessentially tonal interval there is, the driving force for tonal resolution in V7 - I cadences. There is no deterioration of tonality whatever in the first movement.

More generally, assuming that the mental states you attribute to Beethoven would be directly reflected in the expressive qualities of specific works is anachronistic romantic claptrap.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Waehnen said:


> I have not. In your own words, how do you think I would benefit from this lecture?


I just thought you'd be interested! I quite enjoy his lectures.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

EdwardBast said:


> Musical humor can be subtle and not everyone will get it. The humorous aspects of Op. 135 aren't particularly subtle, especially in the off-kilter conversations of the first movement.


So for you there is nothing to talk about and it is a musicological fact that Op. 135 is humorous and nothing more. And everyone who does not agree are either ignorant or bad listeners. Why discuss anything because everything is already settled in the canons?



EdwardBast said:


> Where did you get this odd idea that tritones have something to do with the deterioration of tonality? The tritone is the most quintessentially tonal interval there is, the driving force for tonal resolution in V7 - I cadences. There is no deterioration of tonality whatever in the first movement.


You must know that I know the dominant 7th chord creates harmonic tension through the tritone and the strong melodic tendencies towards the tonic (I). You must also know I was referring to the unusual usage of the tritone. Even you must admit that for example in the melodies the frequency of the tritone was not as high in the time of reneissance, early barogue and the classicism as it was getting closer to the romantic times. The evolving usage of the tritone is a very important factor in the history of music. I doubt the canons would back up your claim that there is nothing special about the tritone in the musical history and that it has never been used to alienating purposes in tonal settings.

Are you seriously suggesting on a forum like this that V7-I is everything there is to the tritone?



EdwardBast said:


> More generally, assuming that the mental states you attribute to Beethoven would be directly reflected in the expressive qualities of specific works is anachronistic romantic claptrap.


Are you saying that Beethoven never expressed his mental states in his music, and particularly not in this quartet -- because you have read in the canons that this is humour? End of discussion?


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Waehnen said:


> I would suggest for us to agree upon this: The 16th Beethoven Quartet is ambiguous in character. Some interpret the grotesque, disintegration, alienation and symbolic signals as means of humour. Some think the aforementioned techniques express something existentially tragic. Some think both interpretations can be correct depending on the situation and the mental state and orientation of the performers and the listeners.


Do you agree with this?

I am interested in balanced statements that express the issue at hand as truthfully as possible. It allows people to understand different points of views on the matter and then move forward.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Op 135 is sublime and humorous. They're not mutually exclusive, at least in that quartet.

The third movement does not contain humor.

The LA Phil says the quartet is humorous, especially the scherzo:









String Quartet No. 16 in F, Op. 135 (Ludwig van Beethoven)







www.laphil.com


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

ORigel said:


> Op 135 is sublime and humorous.


In my view, it's humourous in the surface, but actually sad, serious (and, of course, sublime) in a deeper level. I interpret it as a joke on mortality, a tragic comedy. Beethoven was in the very end of his life when he composed this quartet, and he knew it would be his last.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Xisten267 said:


> In my view, it's humourous in the surface, but actually sad, serious (and, of course, sublime) in a deeper level. I interpret it as a joke on mortality, a tragic comedy. Beethoven was in the very end of his life when he composed this quartet, and he knew it would be his last.


I changed one word and now I agree with you. 

In my view, it's *ambiguous* in the surface, but actually sad, serious (and, of course, sublime) in a deeper level. I interpret it as a joke on mortality, a tragic comedy. Beethoven was in the very end of his life when he composed this quartet, and he knew it would be his last.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

"Rumors abound that while Beethoven was on his deathbed, his friends convinced him to allow a priest to administer the last rites despite his protestations. Upon the priest finishing the rites and leaving the room Beethoven uttered the words:
_"Plaudite, amici, comedia finita est" (Applaud, my friends, the comedy is over)
—Ludwig van Beethoven (disputed)"_


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

hammeredklavier said:


> "Rumors abound that while Beethoven was on his deathbed, his friends convinced him to allow a priest to administer the last rites despite his protestations. Upon the priest finishing the rites and leaving the room Beethoven uttered the words:
> _"Plaudite, amici, comedia finita est" (Applaud, my friends, the comedy is over)
> —Ludwig van Beethoven (disputed)"_


Wow! If this is true, it kind of sums up this quartet, imho. Beethoven perceived life as an existential and tragical comedy. Thanks for the quote!


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Waehnen said:


> So for you there is nothing to talk about and it is a musicological fact that Op. 135 is humorous and nothing more. And everyone who does not agree are either ignorant or bad listeners. Why discuss anything because everything is already settled in the canons?


The claim that Op 135 is overall a kind of comic drama isn't, to my knowledge, generally accepted. It's certainly open to question. I should have explained my position more carefully and been less immediately dismissive of yours. I suspect that the differences in the way we perceive the first movement (especially) might have to do with our assumptions about agency in the work. If one assumes that the work expresses the experience of one unified agent — that it's all, for example, Beethoven's expression or that of a single persona or character whose experience the quartet is heard to be — then the disorder and strange metric and tonal games of the first movement might sound like symptoms of mental struggle or deterioration. If, however, one believes that the first movement is better heard as a conversation among multiple agents associated at any moment with single instruments or pairs, then that disorder and tension becomes whimsical and comical. A kind of humorous social drama. The first way of hearing is based on romantic notions of the relation of the composer to the work. The latter way of hearing it is more in line with Classical Era aesthetics. I think both ways of hearing are appropriate to Beethoven, depending on the particular work under discussion. The Appasionata or the Quartet Op 95, for example, seem more conducive to the romantic kind of reading. IMO, Op 135 is a case where the classical perspective makes more sense. I would suggest listening to the first movement of Op 59 #3 for an even clearer example of comic social drama with multiple agents. In it the first violin part becomes more and more grandiloquent and prolix throughout, while the other parts (agents) become increasingly obsessed with short two note motives and eventually run amok and aimless in the development — until the leader calls them to order in the recap. The Sonata Op 31 #3/i strikes me as another piece that is better heard as a competition among multiple agents or impulses.

So when I interpret the first movement of Op 135 in impersonal terms as comic social drama it's because I hear it in the context of a number of other Beethoven works in the major mode. It's based on an understanding of Op 135's relationship to his whole output.



Waehnen said:


> Even you must admit that for example in the melodies the frequency of the tritone was not as high in the time of reneissance, early barogue and the classicism as it was getting closer to the romantic times. The evolving usage of the tritone is a very important factor in the history of music.


This has nothing to do with the issue at hand, a link you claimed between tritones in Beethoven and the deterioration of tonality.



Waehnen said:


> I doubt the canons would back up *your claim *that there is nothing special about the tritone in the musical history and that it has never been used to alienating purposes in tonal settings.
> 
> *Are you seriously suggesting on a forum like this that V7-I is everything there is to the tritone?*


I made no such claims.



Waehnen said:


> *Are you saying that Beethoven never expressed his mental states in his music*, and particularly not in this quartet -- because you have read in the canons that this is humour? End of discussion?


I said nothing of the kind. I said "*assuming* that the mental states you attribute to Beethoven would be directly reflected in the expressive qualities of *specific works* is anachronistic romantic claptrap." The point is, saying that a specific work expresses certain personal states Beethoven was experiencing when he composed it is an extraordinary claim that requires evidence. It can't just be assumed.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Waehnen said:


> Wow! If this is true, it kind of sums up this quartet, imho. Beethoven perceived life as an existential and tragical comedy. Thanks for the quote!


"Not only is it disputed as to whether or not this event took place, it is also disputed as to whether Beethoven was referring to the rites or to his life. In either case, one would be wrong to attribute sarcasm or irony to his alleged words, since "comedy" almost certainly refers to literary comedy in which a drama unfolds admist struggle and tension, but ends with satisfaction and closure. Only recently has "comedy" evolved into the modern sense which often connotes derision and crass humor. It is very unlikely and anachronistic that Beethoven, well-read in all forms of literature, would use the word in the latter sense, particularly in his last moments.
There are other, more romantic, rumors that his final words, accompanied by the shaking of his fist toward the stormy sky:
_"Not yet! I need more time!"
—Ludwig van Beethoven (disputed)"_


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Waehnen said:


> You must know that I know the dominant 7th chord creates harmonic tension through the tritone and the strong melodic tendencies towards the tonic (I). You must also know I was referring to the unusual usage of the tritone. Even you must admit that for example in the melodies the frequency of the tritone was not as high in the time of reneissance, early barogue and the classicism as it was getting closer to the romantic times.


I don't get how that has anything to do with Sibelius though. Also, chromatic passages involving series of tritones (diminished 7th chords, dominant 7th chords, etc, and non-chord tones forming tritones) are common in the likes of Bach and Mozart (What's your controversial classical music opinion?). I'm not sure what you mean by "frequency"; Beethoven wasn't aesthetically going in a similar direction as Weber or Spohr in harmonic language. books.google.ca/books?id=2MPXSVcdzPUC&pg=PA99 "The op. 18 quartets are the point at which they were closest, but from there their paths diverged. Beethoven moved away from the chromaticism of late Mozart towards a broader harmonic style"


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Thank you for addressing my controversial classical music opinion, everyone (when I started this thread I thought everyone would agree with my interpretation). We got to discuss one of the key elements of music. It is quite amazing to be able to hear the same piece of music as most tragic and frightening -- and in another situation as most humorous, making one laugh out loud. That says something about the importance of the mental state of the listener. It also says something about the ambiguousness of music, and of Beethoven.

I have been listening to all the late quartets recently. The F-Major one remains the most existential, expressive and communicative in my opinion, followed by the A-minor. So far, I really do not know what the B Major Quartet is about. C# minor is really noble and beautiful but it does not touch me as much as the F Major and the A minor.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

hammeredklavier said:


> I don't get how that has anything to do with Sibelius though. Also, chromatic passages involving series of tritones (diminished 7th chords, dominant 7th chords, etc, and non-chord tones forming tritones) are common in the likes of Bach and Mozart (What's your controversial classical music opinion?). I'm not sure what you mean by "frequency"; Beethoven wasn't aesthetically going in a similar direction as Weber or Spohr in harmonic language. books.google.ca/books?id=2MPXSVcdzPUC&pg=PA99 "The op. 18 quartets are the point at which they were closest, but from there their paths diverged. Beethoven moved away from the chromaticism of late Mozart towards a broader harmonic style"


Here´s a link to a video from where I took the picture from. You can see the time in the picture.

Youtube link to Sibelius 4th Symphony with a Score









In my opinion this music is closely related to the Beethoven String Quartet no. 16 in F Major. In a similar way there is a good-humoured, joyful melody which is later twisted and distorted through the unusual using of the tritone. If you do not hear or acknowledge the resemblance to the "deterioration point" from the first movement of the quartet (of which I also took a picture), then I cannot help you further.


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