# B, B, C, L and S.



## Guest (Dec 23, 2015)

According to Wikipedia (and for the purposes of this thread, it is to be accepted!), “the most innovative and influential among progressive figures” of the second half of the twentieth century are the following: 
Berio, Boulez, Cage, Ligeti and Stockhausen.

Which three works of these composers, in your opinion, best demonstrate this assertion?

(Links more than acceptable!)


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Dammit, I was going for Beethoven, Berlioz, Chopin, Liszt and Schumann!


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

The Five B-or-C-or-L-or-S's.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

I don't know about demonstrating their importance or influence, but these works from each of the above composers are at the least important in their own individual explorations of technique:

Berio
- Sinfonia
- Coro
- Visage
- Sequenzas

Boulez
- Le marteau sans maitre
- Notations for Orchestra
- Repons
- Anthemes II
- Sur Incises

Ligeti
- Musica ricercata
- Requiem
- String Quartet No. 2
- Piano Concerto
- Etudes

I'll leave Cage and Stockhausen to those who know them better.


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2015)

Since Mahlerian couldn't contain his love to three works each, neither shall I  Also, I'll include a note of why I selected each work since I'm not as knowledgable. These are NOT necessarily my favorites, but rather a selection of representatives for each of the composers' great innovations. For instance, I might have included Boulez's Structures purely for its significance as total serialism.

Cage:
_Sonatas And Interludes_ (Prepared Piano)
_Music Of Changes_ (Chance In Composition)
_108_ (Chance In Performance)
_Roaratorio_ (Chance In Theatre)
_Apartment House 1776_ (Happenings)

Stockhausen:
_Kontakte_ (Electronic Music)
_Gruppen_ (Serialism / Orchestral Groups)
_Aus Den Sieben Tagen_ (Intuitive Music)
_LICHT_ (Super-Formula Composition)
_Sternklang_ ("Park Music" - Similar to a Sound Installation)


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

I like Mahlerian's lists. I'd have slightly different Boulez and Ligeti lists. If I stuck with three I'd say

Boulez
-Anthemes II
-Pli selon pli
-Sur incises

Ligeti
-Etudes
-Violin concerto
-Lontano


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## LHB (Nov 1, 2015)

Take out Berio, Stockhausen, and Ligeti and put in Xenakis (vectoral music, which led to Algorithmic composition and the entire Spectral school), Babbit (his advancements in serial music, electronic music, and theory outweigh Stockhausen, not to mention that Stockhausen's hyper-avant-garde style that he composed in since the 1980's has long been a dying breed), and Dufourt (founder of the Spectral school).

But if we are talking about just the most innovative works of those composers:

Berio
-Sequenzas

Boulez
-Piano Sonata 2 and 3
-Structures
-Le Marteau

Ligeti
-Etudes

Cage
-Sonatas and Interludes
-Music of Changes
-Roaratorio

Stockhausen
-Klavierstucke
-Kontakte
-Gruppen
-Mantra (predates Licht for superformula composition)


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2015)

LHB said:


> Take out Berio, Stockhausen, and Ligeti and put in Xenakis (vectoral music, which led to Algorithmic composition and the entire Spectral school), Babbit (his advancements in serial music, electronic music, and theory outweigh Stockhausen, not to mention that Stockhausen's hyper-avant-garde style that he composed in since the 1980's has long been a dying breed), and Dufourt (founder of the Spectral school).


I'm a 10th Dan Toss Arguer, but the OP explicitly prohibits!


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2015)

lhb said:


> take out berio, stockhausen, and ligeti and put in xenakis (vectoral music, which led to algorithmic composition and the entire spectral school), babbit (his advancements in serial music, electronic music, and theory outweigh stockhausen, not to mention that stockhausen's hyper-avant-garde style that he composed in since the 1980's has long been a dying breed), and dufourt (founder of the spectral school).


YOU DARE TAKE MY KARLHEINZ FROM ME!?!lowercase


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

Take out Berio and Stockhausen, put in Xenakis and Carter. Though I dare say the first one sometimes forgot about say 'phrasing', iykwim, and the latter has never particularly outstanded to my ear. I also think the Cage adventure was an utter failure, even Feldman realised, but I'll reserve those thoughts for further brewing.


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## LHB (Nov 1, 2015)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Take out Berio and Stockhausen, put in Xenakis and Carter. Though I dare say the first one sometimes forgot about say 'phrasing', iykwim, and the latter has never particularly outstanded to my ear. I also think the Cage adventure was an utter failure, even Feldman realised, but I'll reserve those thoughts for further brewing.


As much as I like Carter and his music, his style is as iconoclastic and personal as Bartok and Sorabji.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

I can tell you my favourites, but I cannot tell you which ones best demonstrate the assertion (that would entail an academic/musicological understanding).


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

LHB said:


> As much as I like Carter and his music, his style is as iconoclastic and personal as Bartok and Sorabji.


that means... a lot?


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2015)

brotagonist said:


> I can tell you my favourites, but I cannot tell you which ones best demonstrate the assertion (that would entail an academic/musicological understanding).


OK I'll settle for favourites. There's vouchers riding on this!!


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Recently, for a little project I do on another forum (not a classical forum, I should add), I wrote a short-ish introduction to Cage, starting with a discussion of _4'33''_ (which must surely be his most influential piece in general, with no end in sight to the discussion of whether or not it is music), and then some selections of his music ─ with further listening recommendations for each selection. I recommended _The City Wears a Slouch Hat_, _Thirteen Harmonies_ (excerpted from _Apartment House 1776_), _Aria (Fontana Mix_), and _Seven²_, as a very broad overview of his work at different points in his development and covering several distinct methods and styles which he employed over the years. Whether or not any of those is in the running for the _TC Prize for Most Influential Post-WW2 Composition_, the list at least gives some idea of what sets him apart not just from the establishment but from the rest of the avant garde of his day.

As for Stockhausen, his work is so singular yet so influential that it would be hard to convey either of those things in just three selections. _Licht_ itself has seven major components, and even the sections of those component works can and do function as individual compositions, albeit ones which somehow relate back to the "Licht superformula." His many innovations in electronic music would also be difficult if not impossible to sum up in a handful of works, and his innovations in other areas also present a considerable challenge. My own personal favourites _Tierkreis_, _Der Jahreslauf_, and _Orchester Finalisten_ also do little to explore the myriad reasons for his importance to contemporary musical life and thinking.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

LHB said:


> But if we are talking about just the most innovative works of those composers:
> 
> Ligeti
> -Etudes


Ligeti's Etudes are among his best work, but I don't think they can be counted among his most innovative by any criteria.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

Berio

While one of the composers I first discovered and loved, vocal was never my primary interest (scanning a listing of his œuvre, I am surprised by the plentitude of non-vocal), thus:

Sinfonia
Sequenza
Folk Songs

Boulez

Le Marteau sans Maître
Dérive II
Dialogue de l'Ombre Double

Cage

I don't know his music well and have not been hugely drawn to it, with the exception of:

Sonatas and Interludes for prepared piano
Music of Changes

Ligeti

There are too many to list!

Piano Concerto
Ramifications
String Quartet 2

Stockhausen

An old favourite, that I have neglected some in recent years; too many to list!

Mantra
Aus den Sieben Tagen
Kontakte


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2016)

I guess this johnny-come-lately needs to be investing in some work by Boulez.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

[Innuendo needed]


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