# Brahms' Piano Quartets



## RogerWaters

With composers that I admire, when there is an isolated work I don't like for some reason I try to find out that reason. 

I simply cannot get into Brahms' Piano Quartets, despite him being one of my Favourite composers. 

Does anyone else have trouble with these works, or views on why they might be different to his other comparable works like Piano Trios, Piano Quintet, etc...?


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## flamencosketches

They seem to be more sprawling and expansive than the piano trios or quintet which are more succinct or concise. But keep trying; they took me a while to get into but they are well worth the effort.


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## Brahmsian Colors

Of the Three Brahms Piano Quartets, only the Second in A major is aesthetically pleasing to me. Its warmth, resplendence and dynamic expressiveness have always held my interest throughout. Like the composer's String Quartets, I've never been able to embrace melodically the First and Third Piano Quartets with the same sense of enthusiatic welcomeness I've felt with the Second. My favorite rendition of the opus 26, No. 2 is by the Festival Quartet on a 1960 RCA Living Stereo lp.

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## Allegro Con Brio

I can see where you’re coming from. They are long, epic, and “intellectual” and are not as immediately rewarding and appealing as works like the clarinet quintet and violin sonatas. The 1st I’m sort of lukewarm on, I don’t find it as thoroughly inspired as most of his other chamber output though the third and fourth movements are great, with the finale in particular one of the most fun pieces Brahms wrote. But the 2nd and 3rd are both candidates among many for my favorite of his chamber works. Opulent melodies and soaring expressivity, with the slow movements of both in particular being very close to my heart. For 1 and 3, I highly recommend the Rubinstein/Guarneri recordings which are very smooth and lyrical. For No. 2 there is a great one with Richter and the Borodin Quartet.


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## RogerWaters

Brahmsian Colors said:


> Of the Three Brahms Piano Quartets, only the Second in A major is aesthetically pleasing to me. Its warmth, resplendence and dynamic expressiveness have always held my interest throughout. Like the composer's String Quartets, I've never been able to embrace melodically the First and Third Piano Quartets with the same sense of enthusiatic welcomeness I've felt with the Second. My favorite rendition of the opus 26, No. 2 is by the Festival Quartet on a 1960 RCA Living Stereo lp.


Funny, I've never had a problem with his String Quartets (although I know they are 'conventionally' seen as comparatively 'lesser' works). I love them - I have the Tacaks recordings.


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## pjang23

Do give a watch of Bruce Adolphe's analyses of the piano quartets (and his series in general). He goes into such great depth on how the musical ideas are developed and how the pieces come together.


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## Art Rock

I love most of his chamber music, and certainly these piano quartets. The only weaker works in his chamber music output (at least looking at it from my own preference) are the three string quartets and the piano quintet (go figure).


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## Triplets

RogerWaters said:


> With composers that I admire, when there is an isolated work I don't like for some reason I try to find out that reason.
> 
> I simply cannot get into Brahms' Piano Quartets, despite him being one of my Favourite composers.
> 
> Does anyone else have trouble with these works, or views on why they might be different to his other comparable works like Piano Trios, Piano Quintet, etc...?


It's just another brick in the wall, rog.
Brahms Chamber Music is more variable in quality than his Orchestral Music. His String Quartets and Quintets can be a tough slog. 
The Piano Quintet, Horn Trio, and the Clarinet works are among my favorites, and the String Sextets not far behind. Sometimes his cross rhythms and ripe harmonies just don't gel.


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## Brahmsian Colors

Art Rock said:


> I love most of his chamber music, and certainly these piano quartets. The only weaker works in his chamber music output (at least looking at it from my own preference) are the three string quartets and the piano quintet (go figure).


Failed to mention in my previous post, I too am not much of a fan of the Piano Quintet.

In no particular order, my favorite Brahms chamber works are the First Piano Trio (both the original and revised versions), Cello Sonata no. 1, Clarinet Sonata no. 2, Clarinet Quintet, Piano Quartet no. 2 and String Quintets 1 and 2.


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## Allegro Con Brio

The piano quintet is a huge, epic work with rough edges; very different from the more mellow, autumnal Brahms we know from the clarinet works and concerti. I can understand why people would not connect with it. IMO it is the absolute crown of his chamber output alongside the first piano trio and the third piano quartet, with the clarinet quintet and all three violin sonatas not far behind.


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## howlingfantods

i love them, especially the second. but to really work, i think they need to be performed by pianists that won't underplay. i think they need to be performed more like they're piano concertos more than like normal chamber music, basically.


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## flamencosketches

Allegro Con Brio said:


> The piano quintet is a huge, epic work with rough edges; very different from the more mellow, autumnal Brahms we know from the clarinet works and concerti. I can understand why people would not connect with it. IMO it is the absolute crown of his chamber output alongside the first piano trio and the third piano quartet, with the clarinet quintet and all three violin sonatas not far behind.


I would rate the concertos, with the possible exception of the violin concerto, as part of the "epic/rough edges" category rather than autumnal. The first piano concerto especially is pure storm. The piano quartets I see as more of the "autumnal" side of things.



howlingfantods said:


> i love them, especially the second. but to really work, i think they need to be performed by pianists that won't underplay. i think they need to be performed more like they're piano concertos more than like normal chamber music, basically.


Love your new avatar. MBV is one of my favorite bands.


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## EdwardBast

No trouble whatever. The 3rd in C minor is among my favorite works of Brahms but I like them all.


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## howlingfantods

flamencosketches said:


> Love your new avatar. MBV is one of my favorite bands.


they're so great. i think my ears are still ringing from when i saw them live over a decade ago.


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## PeterF

I very much like almost all of Brahms chamber music.
The 2 clarinet sonatas are probably the only chamber music works by Brahms I don’t really care For.
As for the piano quartets, my favorite of the three is currently No.1.


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## MarkW

The First is a special favorite. The Gypsy rondo is exhilarating, and first appearance of the second theme in the exposition of the first movement is one of those brief transporting moments that Brahms specializes in.


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## Wes Lachot

So it's not only me. I also found it took longer to warm to the piano quartets than, say, the piano quintet, which absolutely knocked me off my socks the first time I heard it. The string sextets and quintets are some of my favorite music of all time. All Brahms is great at the end of the day, and sometimes the "serious" nature of the piano quartets in what I'm in the mood for. They just don't seem to have quite the "ear worm" effect that most Brahms has. They make me feel more like I'm back in music school or something like that, and I guess that can be seen as a good thing!


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## Knorf

Count me in as one of those who adores the Brahms Piano Quartets. I confess, though, that I was so delighted with the Rubinstein/Guarneri recordings that I have spent next to zero time investigating alternatives. Those recordings are simply that good! But at some point, I should put in some time and look to others as well, I know that.


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## Enthusiast

The question with these is whether to go with a big all-star performance or one that is more concerned with the ensemble. They are big works.


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## flamencosketches

Thoughts on the Beaux Arts Trio + Walter Trampler recordings? I don't think I like them as much as the BAT's recording of the piano trios.


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## Roger Knox

Re Knorf, above: I immediately think of the 3rd (slow) movement of Brahm's Piano Quartet no. 3 in C Minor. The opening long autumnal cello melody, eventually responded to by the little motif from the violin and viola doubled in 6ths, affects me every time. Hearing this movement evokes my whole sense of Brahms more than any other music.


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## Allegro Con Brio

It’s music that’s so rich that I listen to it far less than my other favorite music. I don’t indulge in luxurious four-course feasts daily, so I keep my supply of Brahms chamber music for when I want to treat myself.


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## Enthusiast

^ That is almost exactly my feeling about these great works: they are very rich and need to be taken in moderation.


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## Turangalîla

To me, they are extremely special pieces of music. My instinct would be to say that if you don’t like them, you just need to listen to them more, although I do realize that everyone has different tastes.


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## Knorf

Turangalîla said:


> To me, they are extremely special pieces of music.


For me as well. Thay are "desert island" music. Indispensable.


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## ORigel

Triplets said:


> It's just another brick in the wall, rog.
> Brahms Chamber Music is more variable in quality than his Orchestral Music. His String Quartets and Quintets can be a tough slog.
> The Piano Quintet, Horn Trio, and the Clarinet works are among my favorites, and the String Sextets not far behind. Sometimes his cross rhythms and ripe harmonies just don't gel.


String Quintet No. 1 is quite accessible.


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## Turangalîla

Triplets said:


> Brahms Chamber Music is more variable in quality than his Orchestral Music.


I find this opinion fascinating as, for me, Brahms excelled in chamber music more than any other medium-and that's saying a lot.


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## RogerWaters

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## flamencosketches

RogerWaters said:


> Post deletedddddd


Did you find any love for the works?


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## RogerWaters

flamencosketches said:


> Did you find any love for the works?


Alas, no. They remain among the (very few) Brahms chamber works I do not adore. However, that is no matter, as there is much more to enjoy and maybe this will change in the future as my brain inevitable changes too.


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## flamencosketches

RogerWaters said:


> Alas, no. They remain among the (very few) Brahms chamber works I do not adore. However, that is no matter, as there is much more to enjoy and maybe this will change in the future as my brain inevitable changes too.


That sounds likely. I recant my advice to keep trying. Take a few years' break from them and only come back when they're really calling to you.


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## Ich muss Caligari werden

Just talking about and pondering them makes me want to listen to them - they are indeed "rich" as has been suggested and they can be addictive - their obsessional character was put to good purpose in Patrice Leconte's superb _Monsieur Hire_, courtesy of the Beaux-Arts Trio & Walter Trampler:


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## RogerWaters

flamencosketches said:


> That sounds likely. I recant my advice to keep trying. Take a few years' break from them and only come back when they're really calling to you.


I must also note I'm not a big fan of the Piano Quintet, either (apart from the 1st movement), after a few years of listening to Brahms.


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## Kreisler jr

I am not sure as this was over 30 years ago but I think the piano quintet must have been among the first few chamber pieces by Brahms I encountered and I loved it at once despite its length. The clarinet quintet and the B major trio were other early favorites. ThE piano quartets came considerably later to my attention and were not immediate favourite's but neither problematic. My favorite is still the g minor. I also like the cheesy schoenberg orchestration. The A major is a bit sprawling, one of the few pieces where the scherzando is my favorite movement.


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## Isaac Blackburn

OP, forget what you've heard about these masterpieces. They are neither autumnal (No.2 has a glorious, spiritual joy, and No.3 is tender and darkly profound), nor intellectual nor sprawling. I believe that almost all difficulties boil down to Brahms' unusually dense and active harmony. The true fire lies beneath the surface, when the external crust of harmonic unfamiliarity (which sounds at first constrained and scrawny) is stripped away through close listening and engagement with the motivic and polyphonic motion. In this respect it helps to have a score, which, speaking from experience, illuminates many details and methods of coherence.


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## Brahmsian Colors

Though the Second Piano Quartet remains my favorite among the three, I've come around to a greater appreciation of the other two, especially No.1, thanks in part to my acquisition of the fine set by Rubinstein and the Guarneri. My earlier lp holdings of the First and Second PQs with the Festival Quartet, also on RCA, maintain their high regard in my collection.


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## Kreisler jr

They are a young man''s works, so autumnal is quite misleading. The high opus number of op.60 is deceptive as parts of it are probably from the 1850s,even earlier than the first two.
I also love Rubinstein Guarneri but less in #2 where they seem a bit too relaxed.


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## Enthusiast

I love them a lot. But they are rich, perhaps too rich for regular listening. Very big works.


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## EdwardBast

Kreisler jr said:


> They are a young man''s works, so autumnal is quite misleading. *The high opus number of op.60 is deceptive as parts of it are probably from the 1850s,even earlier than the first two.*
> I also love Rubinstein Guarneri but less in #2 where they seem a bit too relaxed.


There was a complete, three-movement(?) version in C# minor that Brahms played through with Joachim in 1855-56. The first movement and scherzo were later transposed to C minor when Brahms reworked the material for Op. 60. In October of 1856 Clara Schumann saw a "wonderful" Andante in E major, which biographer Ian MacDonald speculates was written as a replacement for the original andante and which became the slow movement of Op. 60. The key certainly makes more comfortable sense for a work in C# minor (being the relative major of the work's key) than one in C minor. If this speculation is correct, Brahms didn't transpose the movement down a half step like he did the other movements when he changed the key to C minor for Op. 60.

Definitely a youthful work, about whose value Brahms remained skeptical decades later.


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## Kreisler jr

I think the finale was added later before the eventual publication. The main earlier material is also from a tough period in the composer's life as he apparently associated it with Goethes suicidal hero Werther. The E major in c minor had a precedent in Beethoven's 3rd piano concerto and a follower in Brahms first symphony but an origin within a c# minor piece is of course plausible.
With the possible exception of the finale it is a very intense piece.


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## EdwardBast

Kreisler jr said:


> I think the finale was added later before the eventual publication. *The main earlier material is also from a tough period in the composer's life as he apparently associated it with Goethes suicidal hero Werther*. The E major in c minor had a precedent in Beethoven's 3rd piano concerto and a follower in Brahms first symphony but an origin within a c# minor piece is of course plausible.
> With the possible exception of the finale it is a very intense piece.


It was from a stressful period, but Brahms' remarks connecting the work to Werther were jocular. At the time of the original version he was in love with the wife of his friend (Robert Schumann), the same situation which led to Werther blowing his brains out in Goethe's novel. Brahms was poking fun at his youthful passion and he seems to have been embarrassed about how much of it could be heard in Opus 60, hence his statement that it was of little value(?)


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## Brahmsian Colors

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I can see where you're coming from. They are long, epic, and "intellectual" and are not as immediately rewarding and appealing as works like the clarinet quintet and violin sonatas. The 1st I'm sort of lukewarm on, I don't find it as thoroughly inspired as most of his other chamber output though the third and fourth movements are great, with the finale in particular one of the most fun pieces Brahms wrote. But the 2nd and 3rd are both candidates among many for my favorite of his chamber works. Opulent melodies and soaring expressivity, with the slow movements of both in particular being very close to my heart. For 1 and 3, I highly recommend the Rubinstein/Guarneri recordings which are very smooth and lyrical. For No. 2 there is a great one with Richter and the Borodin Quartet.


Just looking back on this thread from last year I only now realize I somehow missed your response to my initial post (#3). All your feelings and descriptions associated with the Brahms works cited virtually constituted mirrored reflections of my own. My thanks for the pleasant encounter. :tiphat:

addendum: You're on the money too with that Richter/Borodin Quartet showcasing the Second Piano Quartet. It is marvelous!


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## Gargamel

Brahmsian Colors said:


> Though the Second Piano Quartet remains my favorite among the three, I've come around to a greater appreciation of the other two, especially No.1, thanks in part to my acquisition of the fine set by Rubinstein and the Guarneri. My earlier lp holdings of the First and Second PQs with the Festival Quartet, also on RCA, maintain their high regard in my collection.


The 2nd piano quartet is very low-key, or at least I find it so. I'm much more struck by the 3rd piano quardet, particularly the sweet schubertiana of the strings in the first movement contrasted by some brooding piano chords. Can't you hear how suspenseful the music is, harmonically, and immensely majestetic!


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## Gargamel

Though "low-key" might depend on the performance. I probably dislike most performances of Brahms' 2nd piano quartet. This one is high caliber, though: (ignoring the part when his finger slips)


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## Kreisler jr

The Richter Borodin is probably the most edgy performance of this piece, a bit over the top. But it might convert some. The Rubinstein is the opposite, very relaxed and others I have heard like Domus or BeauxArts are more neutral or even classical. AFAIR I found these two more successful in the 2nd because they were not wild enough in the others. The later Brahms would probably not have closed sibling works with the same type of hungarian gypsy final.


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## SearsPoncho

The Finale to Brahms' 1st Piano Quartet has possibly the greatest coda I've ever heard. It's guaranteed to bring audiences to their feet, which occurred when I saw Issac Stern, Yo Yo Ma, Jaime Laredo and Emanuel Ax perform it.


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## Brahmsian Colors

Gargamel said:


> The 2nd piano quartet is very low-key, or at least I find it so. I'm much more struck by the 3rd piano quardet, particularly the sweet schubertiana of the strings in the first movement contrasted by some brooding piano chords. Can't you hear how suspenseful the music is, harmonically, and immensely majestetic!


I'm not exactly sure if you are referring here to the Rubinstein/Guarneri performances or the actual compositions themselves. While the Second Piano Quartet is my favorite work among the Brahms Three PQs, the Rubinstein/Guarneri _interpretation_ of the Second is not a particular favorite of mine. If your reference to "very low-key" applies to their rendition, I am in agreement with you. I much prefer my recording by the Festival Quartet as well as Richter's with the Borodin Quartet....On the other hand, if by "very-low key" you are pointing to the Second PC as a composition, I can't agree with you because of what I feel are its wonderful aesthetic and melodious qualities.


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## Gargamel

Brahmsian Colors said:


> I'm not exactly sure if you are referring here to the Rubinstein/Guarneri performances or the actual compositions themselves. While the Second Piano Quartet is my favorite work among the Brahms Three PQs, the Rubinstein/Guarneri _interpretation_ of the Second is not a particular favorite of mine. If your reference to "very low-key" applies to their rendition, I am in agreement with you. I much prefer my recording by the Festival Quartet as well as Richter's with the Borodin Quartet....On the other hand, if by "very-low key" you are pointing to the Second PC as a composition, I can't agree with you because of what I feel are its wonderful aesthetic and melodious qualities.


I'm referring to the actual composition (#2) itself, and I'm trying to convey her how I experience it relative to piano quartet #3. By relatively low-key, I mean relatively subtle. You might disagree on that, but it's not a pejorative remark. I mean, there are times when my heart has been with #2, but at other times I'm not in the mood for it, and the wrong players can outright kill it for me. (We're still talking about music.) But I'm never in the mood where I would not be fully into #3.


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## Kreisler jr

It's like the Pastoral is low key compared to the 5th. Brahms was traditional enough to strive for contrast when he wrote pairs of works like op.25 and 26 or 51,1+2.


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## Brahmsian Colors

Gargamel said:


> I'm referring to the actual composition (#2) itself, and I'm trying to convey her how I experience it relative to piano quartet #3. By relatively low-key, I mean relatively subtle. You might disagree on that, but it's not a pejorative remark. I mean, there are times when my heart has been with #2, but at other times I'm not in the mood for it, and the wrong players can outright kill it for me. (We're still talking about music.) But I'm never in the mood where I would not be fully into #3.


You're okay. That's what I thought. Thanks too for your clarification on "low-key". And I can certainly relate to those "not in the mood" and lousy interpretation situations. Otherwise, PQ 3 is growing on me, and that can be a good thing :cheers:


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## Bruckner Anton

Brahms' piano quartets are among my favorite chamber music.


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