# Haydn: The Creation, The Seasons



## HarpsichordConcerto

Haydn wrote two great oratorios almost one after the other: _Die Schöpfung/The Creation_ (1798), and _Die Jahreszeiten/The Seasons_ (1801). Both masterpieces are amongst his best works, and amongst the oratorio genre as a whole (certainly as far as the Classical period is concerned). And perhaps nothing in the oratorio genre came close by later composers.

So, what do you think of these works? You love it? You hate it/trash it? (I think Igor Stravinsky didn't think much of _The Creation_, calling it "childish" but correct me if this is wrong).

Which versions on recording do you have? Any good?

_The Creation_: I have Tafelmusik/Bruo Weil (sung in German), The Academy of Ancient Music/Hogwod (sung in English, translation used as conducted by Haydn for London performance), and Capella Augustina/Andreas Spering (sung in German, Naxos label). All three versions on period instruments. Warmly recommend them.

I'm thinking of getting John Eliot Gardiner's, and Rene Jacob's. No hurry. Wondering if anyone here has these?

_The Seasons_: I have John Eliot Gardiner's version only. I will get Rene Jacob's version. There are less recordings of this great work; overshadowed by it's younger sibling.


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## Boccherini

I have The Creation by AAM/Hogwood.
I don't remember whether I have the complete of The Seasons, but I'd like to get a copy by AAM as well when/if it comes out.


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## Conor71

I have listened to the Creation a couple of times - I do like it and think its a good work, it is definetely one I will get to know better in future .
The version I own is the Karajan one, I think it sounds pretty good:


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## Guest

I have Gardiner's recording of "The Creation," but I must confess that I have not given it much attention, so I can't give a good recommendation. I do believe I found it enjoyable, but it has been some time since I listened to it. Perhaps I will soon.


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## StlukesguildOhio

_The Creation_ and _The Seasons_ are certainly two of Haydn's best works... an spectacular choral works. The "Let there be LIGHT (or "Licht") with the booming introduction of choral and orchestral forces as the universe explodes into being is absolutely stunning. Stravinsky? He was really a bit of a moron when it came to judging other composers, now wasn't he? There's a great little book by the brilliant Latin-American writer, Alejo Carpentier entitled _Baroque Concerto_. Much of this book is something of a Baroque fantasy including a scene with Vivaldi and Stravinsky. Stravinsky mouths his oft-repeated criticism of Vivaldi, declaring that he didn't write 100s of concertos, but the same concerto 100s of times. Vivaldi responds that at least he was never reduced to composing music for the puppet theater. Talk about "childish".

I have both the Gardiner and the Karajan recording. Karajan's is obviously not an HIP recording... and there are those who argue that the man was unsuited to conducting Haydn, anyway... but with Fritz Wunderlich??!! You can't go wrong. The Gardiner, on the other hand, is a muscular HIP production and also every bit worthy of its reputation.


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## ScipioAfricanus

I saw the creation live last year at the Mostly Mozart Festival. My opinion of Haydn went up a couple notches. Haydn wrote program music before program music became vogue.


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## Guest

I have been curious about The Seasons - I've not been the biggest Haydn fan. My tastes tend more towards the Romantic and the Baroque, so I don't listen to a lot of Classical, but I have been increasingly enjoying HIP Classical, so maybe I'll have to give Haydn a little more attention and listen to The Creation.

Any recommendations for HIP recordings of The Seasons?


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## HarpsichordConcerto

DrMike said:


> I have been curious about The Seasons - I've not been the biggest Haydn fan. My tastes tend more towards the Romantic and the Baroque, so I don't listen to a lot of Classical, but I have been increasingly enjoying HIP Classical, so maybe I'll have to give Haydn a little more attention and listen to The Creation.
> 
> Any recommendations for HIP recordings of The Seasons?


I know of only three versions of _The Seasons_ on HIP: John Eliot Gardiner (which I have), Rene Jacobs (I will get one day) and Nicholas Harnoncourt.

Haydn seemed to have struggled with it more than _The Creation_, partly due to old age and partly (as history seem to suggest), with its perceived weak libretto. The libretto was compiled by Baron Gottfried van Swieten, who also provided _The Creation_. (van Swieten was a conservative, wealthy, aristocratic public servant, who was a great patron of the best around his time: C. P. E. Bach, Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven, and promoted the music of J. S. Bach and Handel behind private closed doors. He was portrayed as the "good guy" in the movie _Amadeus_).


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## Guest

I stopped by a friend's house last night, and we discussed these (he also enjoys classical), and he lent me this CD:









He said he really enjoys this recording of The Creation. I noticed it got a great review at Classicstoday.com. Any thoughts on this recording? I'm going to give it a listen today.


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## jhar26

The Creation: Karajan and Hogwood.

The Seasons: Jacobs.

Those are the ones I have and I like all three really. Karajan is maybe the best of all because he had a fantastic line-up of singers.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

DrMike said:


> I stopped by a friend's house last night, and we discussed these (he also enjoys classical), and he lent me this CD:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He said he really enjoys this recording of The Creation. I noticed it got a great review at Classicstoday.com. Any thoughts on this recording? I'm going to give it a listen today.


I have that version (as listed above). Great HIP recording, and price factor smashes others.


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## handlebar

I like the both. If I was forced to pick between the two it would be The Seasons I suppose. I own the Gardiner versions for both right now.

Jim


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## Eusebius12

These are amongst Haydn's greatest works, but I cannot engender more than a fairly healthy respect for them.


Beethoven's Christ on the Mount of Olives, Mozart's Davidde Penitente, Schumann's Paradise and the Peri and Faust Scenes, Berlioz's Damnation of Faust, Liszt's St Elizabeth, Brahms' German Requiem, and Elgar's Gerontius, Apostles and the Kingdom, for example, are all more or less in the oratorio style and at least equal in my view to those Haydn works, as sincere as they are.

Of these I would rate the Schumann works and Gerontius as the finest works in the genre after the days of Bach and Handel, granting that the Penitent David is very fine (although most of the music is recycled from Mozart's unfinished C Minor Mass)


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## Aramis

Just finished The Creation, recording by Marriner. I think it's great work, too long though - I don't dig 3rd part with Adam and Eva, it seems out of place, I imagined this work as description of the creation itself, visions of angels flying around new-made world and singing O LA LA HOW BEAUTIFUL and playing angelic horns and the whole thing as huge celebration kept strictly to the process of creation, process = dynamism. 

So the first part I like the most, second and third are still good with moments of greatness (final chorus in 3rd part is especially awesome - the best of all in this work IMO - and is good to my vision of a lot of angels flying around the new-made world in awe and celebrating it).

I think I'm going to check other recordings with singers I know and like.


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## haydnfan

The Creation is his finest work, I have the Spering recording and it is excellent.


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## Meaghan

StlukesguildOhio said:


> _The Creation_ and _The Seasons_The "Let there be LIGHT (or "Licht") with the booming introduction of choral and orchestral forces as the universe explodes into being is absolutely stunning.


The first time I heard _The Creation_ (at a live performance), this was the moment I realized I like Haydn. It was so exciting I almost jumped out of my seat.


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## Pieck

Sounds like I should listen to it.


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## jaimsilva

I have Karajan's recording of "Die Schöpfung" for DG (there is another Karajan recording with the Vienna Philarmonic, live for the Salzburger Festspiele), I have also Gardiner's, Harnoncourt's, Kubelik's, McCreesh's, Marriner's, Wand's and Weil's recordings of that work.
By far I prefer Karajan's recording.
On period-instruments I prefer Gardiner's one.
I'll listen again to McCreesh's version, this one sung in english.


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## Moscow-Mahler

Have anyone heard Rene Jacob's recording of the Creations? I've not yet, but it seems that the soprano and the other singers are very good.


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## poconoron

I enjoy The Seasons quite a bit................listening to the Gardiner version right now. I had to smile at the tune from the Surprise symphony #94 (andante) in the Spring section of the work. Highly recommended.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Moscow-Mahler said:


> Have anyone heard Rene Jacob's recording of the Creations? I've not yet, but it seems that the soprano and the other singers are very good.


Yes, I have it. Very good tending towards a dramatic interpretation of this masterpiece.


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## elgar's ghost

The Creation is a great work - that 'and there was light' section is nigh on transcendental (no wonder old Haydn looked heavenwards and raised his shaky hand aloft to explain '...it comes from there!'. I have Karajan's splendid DG recording. I haven't got around to checking out The Seasons yet - it's being continually put back while I incrementally collect Haydn's 6 late masses (5 down, just no. 9 to go), which is also a fantastic body of work judging by what I've heard so far. As far as collecting Haydn's late works, The Seasons is THE 'gaping hole' that has yet to be filled. Apart from that and the aforementioned mass I appear to now at long last have all the other important late works: the symphonies, masses, piano trios and string quartets. What a pity it was eventually beyond him to complete that final string quartet, though!


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## HaydnBearstheClock

DrMike said:


> I stopped by a friend's house last night, and we discussed these (he also enjoys classical), and he lent me this CD:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He said he really enjoys this recording of The Creation. I noticed it got a great review at Classicstoday.com. Any thoughts on this recording? I'm going to give it a listen today.


I own this version of the Creation. It has a very tight and transparent sound - but the choirs are played at tempos which I find a bit too quick sometimes. Overall though, I really like the record. I do have the sense that there are better interpretations out there though. Does anyone own the version by Helmut Koch? I was wondering about how good that one is.


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## DavidA

The Creation is a joyous, celebratory work, one of Haydn's best.
I have the Karajan version of The Creation. It has unmatched soloists and is brilliantly done in German, of course.
I got the McCreesh version which is in English. It is generally very good but unfortunately McCreesh decided to use non-English soprano soloists which rather undercuts the point of it being in English. They sing well but their English is not quite idiomatic. I did wonder why he did this as there are plenty of good English soloists he could have used.

For The Seasons I have the Gardiner - but I have heard the Jacobs is even better.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Does anyone own the Levine version of the Creation? It seems to have a pumped up sound, what do you think of it?


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## Guest

DavidA said:


> The Creation is a joyous, celebratory work, one of Haydn's best.
> I have the Karajan version of The Creation. It has unmatched soloists and is brilliantly done in German, of course.
> I got the McCreesh version which is in English. It is generally very good but unfortunately McCreesh decided to use non-English soprano soloists which rather undercuts the point of it being in English. They sing well but their English is not quite idiomatic. I did wonder why he did this as there are plenty of good English soloists he could have used.
> 
> For The Seasons I have the Gardiner - but I have heard the Jacobs is even better.


I have not heard Gardiner's Seasons, but I do own the Jacobs recording, and it is wonderful. I highly recommend it. I have listened to Gardiner's recording of the Creation - it is what introduced me to the work.


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## hpowders

Just saw this thread.

There is no comparison. Haydn's The Creation is superior to The Seasons. The former is right up there with Bach's B Minor Mass and Beethoven's Missa Solemnis as the top three choral works ever written that were completed by the original composer.

The Seasons? NOT!!


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## brotagonist

I notice that quite a few mention preferring the DG Karajan recording of Haydn's Creation/Schöpfung; there are a couple of mentions for the Harnoncourt, but it is unclear whether it is the earlier (originally on Tel-Dec, now on Warner/Apex) or the later live recording. I have sampled and both Karajan and the earlier Harnoncourt sound good. When I heard the Harnoncourt samples, I immediately thought of his excellent symphonies set; when I heard the Karajan samples, I was wowed by the force of the orchestra and the singers (but the Harnoncourt has good singing, too, although they are names I don't recognize, but their German is intelligible without recourse to the text).

I guess most would prefer the Karajan over the Harnoncourt?


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## fjf

The Karajan with Fritz Wunderlich (there are two of those, the second was not completed and has tow tenors due to the the death of Fritz) is pretty impressive.

The first (1965, WPO):








The second:


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## Pugg

For me The Creation, as much as I like The Karajan recording, my favourite is this one.

​


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## SixFootScowl

I have this one (sung in English), but have not listened to it much. I think I will spin it later today.


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## brotagonist

Pugg said:


> For me The Creation, as much as I like The Karajan recording, my favourite is this one.
> 
> ​


You're devious :devil: I thought I had it narrowed down to two choices, both very reasonably priced. This one is about $4 more, but I'm just sampling it (I need to compare with Karajan again) and it's a strong candidate.


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## brotagonist

Florestan said:


> I have this one (sung in English), but have not listened to it much. I think I will spin it later today.


I am a fan of Upshaw. I noticed this recording as I scanned the listings, but I am definitely set on a German version.


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## brotagonist

Well, I think I've definitely excluded the Karajan from consideration: the recording really does sound aged. As much as I am tempted by Doráti, I just sampled Harnoncourt again and I think I like it better  It has a more minimal approach that is very appealing. The voices are great, too. I still haven't ordered, so I'm going to let it stew for a bit.


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## brotagonist

I discovered this review on MusicWeb International:

"Fortunately for Apex they are on to a winner with the performers. The combination of Vienna Symphony and fortepiano continuo mentioned above may seem odd, but under Harnoncourt the VSO sound just as delicate and colourful as any period instrument band, with the added advantage of fabulous blend in the strings and perfect intonation, even in the wind and brass. To listen to the gently undulating strings and pulsing winds under the glorious Adam and Eve duet _Von diener Güt', o Herr und Gott / Heaven and earth, O Lord our God_ one can hear the impact that Harnoncourt's long work with the Vienna Concentus Musicus has had on his approach to handling the VSO. There is no sense of the great bulk of rich sound that characterises the orchestra in Bruckner. This shows a truly versatile band. In the same way the almost outlandish double bassoon honk illustrating the 'weight of beasts' in Raphael's Part II aria _Nun scheint in vollem Glanze der Himmel / Now the heavens shine in all their glory_ smacks of the period instrument bands' obsession with extremities of musical thought and depiction, and is equally effective.

The chorus is the redoubtable Arnold Schoenberg Choir of Vienna, a group that has recorded frequently under Harnoncourt. Diction is tight throughout, the balance with the orchestra is excellent and the choir is able not only to shine forth in the frequently blazing choruses but can also make a true _pianissimo_; no mean feat for even the best of choirs. The acid test here is always in the first chorus _Und der Geist Gottes / And the Spirit of God_ which depicts the Lord moving over the face of the waters, in the most sublime controlled _pianissimo_ before bursting into a blaze of C major saying "Let there be light". The light is only truly dramatic if the darkness has been deep. Harnoncourt's forces pull it off splendidly.

The soloists are also very fine. The bulk of the work falls to the soprano and bass, taking two roles each. Edita Gruberova has the right blend of clarity and richness to suit the sometimes rather operatic, but always tasteful, nature of Haydn's writing. She is well balanced by Robert Holl as Adam and Raphael and their duets in Part III form a definite highlight. The recorded sound is good throughout, with soloists, chorus and orchestra well balanced in the mix. The engineers have generally managed to prevent the chorus from sounding too distant - a frequent problem when the orchestra is so large - and there is a welcome absence of audience noise."

I am tending to this one-momentarily


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## SixFootScowl

brotagonist said:


> I am a fan of Upshaw. I noticed this recording as I scanned the listings, but I am definitely set on a German version.


You could always get both. Among my several Messiah's I have one sung in German which is very nice, but the English will always be my main Messiah. I just wanted to understand the words on the Creation because, unlike opera, I don't have DVD with subtitles--though there may be one available.


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## brotagonist

I am fluent in German (I picked up English in grade school, even though I was born in Canada :tiphat, so a translation is not essential. In your case, this would clearly add much to the enjoyment. Off topic: for that reason, I have long wanted to get an English version of Schoenberg's Pierrot Lunaire, so that I could more readily share my passion for the music.


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## Itullian

I'm happy with the Dorati.


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## bharbeke

Bernstein, Davis, and Dorati all use harpsichords in their Creation performances. Karajan's performance has a bit too much audio crackle and pop for my taste. Is there a great Creation performance out there with stellar sound quality, modern instruments, exceptional singing, and a powerful organ sound?


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## Pugg

bharbeke said:


> Bernstein, Davis, and Dorati all use harpsichords in their Creation performances. Karajan's performance has a bit too much audio crackle and pop for my taste. Is there a great Creation performance out there with stellar sound quality, modern instruments, exceptional singing, and a powerful organ sound?


I am sticking with Dorati / Bernstein/ Karajan also. As to answer your question , I don't think so, more H.I.P on the moment.


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## ST4

The Creation is great! 

Likely the first classical era work I actually liked too, it just exploded on me.


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## hpowders

I would call Haydn's The Seasons "disappointing" after the incredible "Creation".

One masterpiece out of these two compositions. Still batting .500!!


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## Sonata

Both are wonderful works. I was completely bowled over by the Seasons the first time I heard it (conducted by Rene Jacobs). I don't recall the conductor of my Creation, I'll have to check my iTunes and see. I need to listen to these more often!


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## Pugg

Sonata said:


> Both are wonderful works. I was completely bowled over by the Seasons the first time I heard it (conducted by Rene Jacobs). I don't recall the conductor of my Creation, I'll have to check my iTunes and see. I need to listen to these more often!


You are right, there's no comparison between those two works, spectacular in their own way.


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## larold

I recorded a performance of Haydn's The Seasons from public radio during the 1970s that was performed at the Ravinia Festival, the Chicago Symphony's summer retreat, under James Levine. He wasn't a household name yet. This was a magnificent performance, better than any I later heard on recordings, with more gusto and life than other performances. I owned an English language version for some years but was spoiled by the older one. This was public radio's heyday when they would present such works in full length performances.


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## Pugg

larold said:


> I recorded a performance of Haydn's The Seasons from public radio during the 1970s that was performed at the Ravinia Festival, the Chicago Symphony's summer retreat, under James Levine. He wasn't a household name yet. This was a magnificent performance, better than any I later heard on recordings, with more gusto and life than other performances. I owned an English language version for some years but was spoiled by the older one. This was public radio's heyday when they would present such works in full length performances.


Still happens, on public T.V last night Harnoncourt conducting Beethoven Missa Solemness.


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