# Beethoven: Symphony #3 "Eroica" ("Heroic") in E-flat, op. 55



## science

If you don't already know the basic story behind this symphony, you definitely want to read the wikipedia article about it, especially the "history" section.

But for us, the question is, how do you feel about this symphony? What do you like or love about it? How does it challenge you?

Feel free to discuss particular recordings if you'd like. Along those lines, here's Trout's list of recommended recordings, based on his systematic research on multiple fronts, including TC posts:



> Condensed Listing:
> 1.	Furtwängler (cond.), Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra	(1944)
> 2.	Scherchen (cond.), Vienna State Opera Orchestra	(1958)
> 3.	Toscanini (cond.), NBC Symphony Orchestra	(1939)
> 4.	Klemperer (cond.), Philharmonia Orchestra	(1955)
> 5.	Szell (cond.), Cleveland Orchestra	(1957)
> 6.	E. Kleiber (cond.), Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra	(1955)
> 7.	Savall (cond.), Le Concert des Nations	(1994)
> 8.	Karajan (cond.), Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra	(1962)
> 9.	E. Kleiber (cond.), Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra	(1950)
> 10.	Toscanini (cond.), NBC Symphony Orchestra	(1953)


I will link to some other TC posts and threads that are relevant to this discussion.

You can see where this work currently ranks compared to others on the Talk Classical Community's Favorite and Most Highly Recommended Works.


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## Larkenfield

Well, it was a monumental breakthrough for Beethoven in his personal freedom of self-expression and the expansion of what a symphony could be in form post-Haydn and Mozart. But it's too bad that Napoleon had feet of clay by crowning himself emperor and Beethoven crossed out his dedication in anger... I do not believe the Third supersedes the importance of the Ninth which influenced most of the 19th century because of its combination of music and _words_. Nevertheless, despite Napoleon's disappointment, I think this is a rollicking great symphony full of hope and promise for a better future for the freedom of humanity and is still a genuine expression of spirit and heroism, like the man Beethoven himself dealing with his deafness... So far, I've never had a favorite recording.


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## KenOC

Here's a listing from the old Amazon site, including some YouTube links:

Symphony No. 3 in E-flat major, Op. 55, "Eroica" (composed 1803/04, premièred 1805)
1 - Leonard Bernstein, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra
2 - Otto Klemperer, Philharmonia Orchestra 1959 stereo
3 - Otto Klemperer, Philharmonia Orchestra 1955 mono
4 - Arturo Toscanini, NBC Symphony Orchestra 1949
5 - Riccardo Chailly, Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra - 



6 - Leonard Bernstein, New York Philharmonic Orchestra
7 - Arturo Toscanini, NBC Symphony Orchestra 1953
8 - Eugen Jochum, Concertgebouw Orchestra 1960s - 



9 - Wilhelm Furtwangler, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra 1944 - 



10 - Claudio Abbado, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra 2001 live

From a contemporary 1806 review in the AMZ Leipzig: "It is certain-all connoisseurs' voices that the reviewer has heard agree, if not the authors of certain leaflets!-it is certain, I say, that this symphony is one of the most original, sublime, and profound products that music has to show for itself."


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## MarkW

It is on my short list of greatest symphonies ever written. And no performance, for me, has ever superceded Toscanini's 1949 Carnegie Hall recording. I could write pages on it but, mercifully, won't.


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## KenOC

MarkW said:


> ..I could write pages on it but, mercifully, won't.


Reminds me of an old review: "Prokofiev wouldn't grant an encore. The Russian heart may be a dark place, but its capacity for mercy is infinite." -- James Huneker, NY Times, 1918


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## Larkenfield

*Eroicamania!*

Roger Norrington playing the Eroica at a fast clip in the 1st movement. Not sure if his performance is more wimpy or heroic. His approach sometimes reminds me of "Napoleon Light," not the full sense of the heroic, though I enjoyed parts of it. I think the Symphony needs a certain amount of body and weight to express its full measure of revolutionary power. I'm not convinced that some of the HIP recordings have the soaring wildness and thunder that Beethoven might have wanted.






Ah yes... Gardiner! The revolutionary thunder and lightning, the heartfelt_ Marcia funebre_-a performance for the ages like being there... Thrilling!






Celibidache! The 1st movement _moves_. Love its fullness and warmth, its full-bodied richness-an excellent performance and recording with great sincerity in the _Marcia funebre_. Epic!


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## Mandryka

I don’t know very much about Beethoven so I have what may be a naive question. What did Beethoven understand by “hero” and how does that come across in the music?


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## Art Rock

For me, by far the "best" (i.e. my favourite) symphony composed at the time. I prefer it over any Mozart or Haydn symphony. However, so many "better" symphonies have been composed since then.


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## MarkW

Mandryka said:


> I don't know very much about Beethoven so I have what may be a naive question. What did Beethoven understand by "hero" and how does that come across in the music?


I don't know what to say. If it doesn't _sound_ "Heroic" to you compared to any other symphony written to its time, I'm not sure what we can say to enlighten you.


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## Mandryka

Think of two heroes, Ghandi and Achilles. Do either of these conceptions of heroism have any bearing on the music? Or maybe Trump or a worker?

They're all men! Is this a man symphony?


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## MarkW

Mandryka said:


> Think of two heroes, Ghandi and Achilles. Do either of these conceptions of heroism have any bearing on the music? Or maybe Trump or a worker?
> 
> They're all men! Is this a man symphony?


Okay, I get you. I don't think the Gandhi type hero much existed as a Western concept in 1803. And Achilles was much too subtley Classical. My guess for Enlightenment heroes would be a great man doing great things for his people selflessly, and given how wartorn Vienna was during much of Beethoven's life, leadership in battle would probably have something to do with it. (And with the possible exceptions of Joan d'Arc and Charlotte Corday, women did have little to do with it.)


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## Tchaikov6

I love the Eroica Symphony, but I am struggling still a bit with the slow movement, which I find is boring in many places. I usually listen to Karajan, which is probably my favorite.


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## SixFootScowl

I once listened to the Eroica over and over for about 1.5 weeks straight. It was the Gardiner recording. Wonderful symphony!


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## MarkW

Tchaikov6 said:


> I love the Eroica Symphony, but I am struggling still a bit with the slow movement, which I find is boring in many places. I usually listen to Karajan, which is probably my favorite.


Well, I think that after the slow movement, no other piece of Western music gets to call itself a funeral march -- but you have to get yourself into a funereal mood to appreciate it.


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## rbacce

The Eroica is my favorite Beethoven composition. I'm planning one day to buy/download the whole orchestral sheet and analyze it.


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## SixFootScowl

rbacce said:


> The Eroica is my favorite Beethoven composition. I'm planning one day to buy/download the whole orchestral sheet and analyze it.


I think they have it on CD-ROM where you can listen and watch the score go by on the video at the same time.


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## Brahmsian Colors

My favorite Beethoven symphony, though in general not especially one of my favorite composers. In no particular order, I prefer Cluytens/Berlin Philharmonic, Munch/Boston Symphony, Szell/Cleveland Orchestra and Bohm/Vienna Philharmonic.


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## MarkW

rbacce said:


> The Eroica is my favorite Beethoven composition. I'm planning one day to buy/download the whole orchestral sheet and analyze it.


I think it really repays score analysis.


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## jegreenwood

rbacce said:


> The Eroica is my favorite Beethoven composition. I'm planning one day to buy/download the whole orchestral sheet and analyze it.


https://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_No.3,_Op.55_(Beethoven,_Ludwig_van)


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## mbhaub

Recently a British magazine (Gramophone or BBC Music - don't remember which) surveyed top conductors about what is the GREATEST symphony ever written and they voted for the Eroica. But when you look at concert programs, especially in the US, it's actually not played all that often. Beethoven's 5, 7 & 9 are more common. The 3rd is really difficult to play and gives less than professional orchestras a real challenge. Even Karajan had trouble with the two opening chords - they're not always exactly together in at least one of his recordings.

My beef with most recordings is that the conductors take it so seriously and try to play it like Mahler or Wagner. I heard Neeme Jarvi do it live in Detroit years ago and what he found in the score, and brought out brilliantly, was the humor! Finale was so well done that at times the audience actually chuckled. That's Beethoven! The funeral march was solemn, but not a dirge - it moved along and didn't seem too long like it can with some much more venerated conductors. I would love to have a recording of that performance. His son, Paavo, did a brilliant job of it in Berlin and that recording on RCA is available. Another recording that I would never give up is a very old Reader's Digest one with Rene Leibowitz and the Royal Philharmonic. No one, ever, has gotten the coda of the finale so brilliantly right! The accents are all in place at the fast tempo he takes. Thrilling.

Then there's a chamber version that some critics have not been kind to, but I find it quite beautiful and well worth a listen:


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## rbacce

jegreenwood said:


> https://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_No.3,_Op.55_(Beethoven,_Ludwig_van)


Yes, I thought they had it on IMSLP, I'm just not doing the analysis right now because I'm involved in another project. But as soon as I end my Masters I'll download this score and go for it. Thank you.


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## Enthusiast

I don't know if it is my favourite Beethoven symphony - it could be - but it is one work where you need to consider some context. It represents a huge leap into what we now call the Romantic - and for that it must surely be seen as especially great. I doubt there has ever been such a jump in the whole history of music, has there?


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## DavidA

This is a very enjoyable - if somewhat fanciful - movie. You have, for example, to assume that the orchestra could sight read Beethoven's revolutionary and difficult work at sight. However, with a few suspensions of disbelief, this is a great movie, with a terrific portrayal of what Beethoven might have been like.


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## KenOC

DavidA said:


> This is a very enjoyable - if somewhat fanciful - movie. You have, for example, to assume that the orchestra could sight read Beethoven's revolutionary and difficult work at sight. However, with a few suspensions of disbelief, this is a great movie, with a terrific portrayal of what Beethoven might have been like.


Hey, that's the Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique. Really. They can sight-read anything!

I thought the scenes with Haydn were great, although totally imaginary. People on this forum have quoted Haydn's "Everything is different from today," thinking he actually said it.


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## Olias

Watch this movie and it will all make sense:


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## MarkW

KenOC said:


> Hey, that's the Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique. Really. They can sight-read anything!
> 
> I thought the scenes with Haydn were great, although totally imaginary. People on this forum have quoted Haydn's "Everything is different from today," thinking he actually said it.


The other fanciful Haydn quote is his lamenting the death of his late wife -- when by all accounts his marriage was dreadful.


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## KenOC

MarkW said:


> The other fanciful Haydn quote is his lamenting the death of his late wife -- when by all accounts his marriage was dreadful.


Yes indeed! Although Haydn evidently found the joys of female acquaintance elsewhere. BTW there's no evidence I've been able to find that Haydn ever heard the Eroica at all.


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## MarkW

KenOC said:


> Yes indeed! Although Haydn evidently found the joys of female acquaintance elsewhere. BTW there's no evidence I've been able to find that Haydn ever heard the Eroica at all.


I didn't think so. Although I hunted around after seeing the film to see if there were any basis for the quote at all. (I still love Norrington's performance however.)


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## rbacce

rbacce said:


> The Eroica is my favorite Beethoven composition. I'm planning one day to buy/download the whole orchestral sheet and analyze it.


I won this week the full Bärenreiter urtext orchestral score as a gift from a friend. Can't express how excited I am about it lol


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## SixFootScowl

Olias said:


> Watch this movie and it will all make sense:


Watched it. Quite enjoyed it. Thanks for posting it. Made me get back into a few listens of the Eroica. Perhaps like that one better than the Fifth.


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## Larkenfield

Haydn never heard Beethoven's Eroica because he wasn't 
at the first performance and the iPod hadn't been invented yet.


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## Merl

Larkenfield said:


> Haydn never heard Beethoven's Eroica because he wasn't
> at the first performance and the iPod hadn't been invented yet.


They were bickering about this over at one Beethoven website I used to go on. One guy wrote, 
"Haydn supposedly said of the work that it was "much too long, too loud and would never become popular" but when pushed for his sources he could not supply them. He did supply a source about a meeting on the street Haydn had with Beethoven and Ries (in which Haydn supposedly complimented Ludwig's Creatures of Prometheus).


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## Larkenfield

Merl said:


> They were bickering about this over at one Beethoven website I used to go on. One guy wrote,
> "Haydn supposedly said of the work that it was "much too long, too loud and would never become popular" but when pushed for his sources he could not supply them. He did supply a source about a meeting on the street Haydn had with Beethoven and Ries (in which Haydn supposedly complimented Ludwig's Creatures of Prometheus).


Yes, I was kidding, but I believe that you are right and Haydn heard it in concert and, as you say, Haydn supposedly said of the work that it was "much too long, too loud (and bombastic) and would never become popular."


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## Merl

I don't know what's true or not. We know Haydn didn't attend the premiere but it had a flurry of performances in Vienna after that and he _may_ have attended one of those. If he didn't hear it I'll hazard a guess that he had a look at the score at some point. Although Haydn wasn't always complimentary to his students he did take a keen interest in some of their compositions. There's no way he could have avoided all the buzz around the Eroica so I'm sure he would have had to see it in score or hear it. Apart from one particular occasion he was generally very positive in regard to LVB's compositions. We'll doubtless never know the answer.


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## Triplets

My first Eroica was the Furtwangler 1944 and that recording imprinted me. My distant second favorite is Toscanini, and in Stereo it’s Hogwood.


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## wkasimer

I listened to the new Honeck recording yesterday - fabulous!


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## Merl

wkasimer said:


> I listened to the new Honeck recording yesterday - fabulous!


I got it a few weeks back and finally listened to it, in the car. If Honeck finishes this cycle off in the way he has begun with 3, 5 & 7 it will be the best Beethoven cycle ever. All 3 are exceptional performances. That Symphony 5&7 disc is just awesome but the new Eroica goes to the top of the pile too.


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## gellio

Fritz Kobus said:


> I once listened to the Eroica over and over for about 1.5 weeks straight. It was the Gardiner recording. Wonderful symphony!


Jeggy's cycle is the best, IMO. He gets Beethoven. Such a wonderful cycle.


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## SixFootScowl

gellio said:


> Jeggy's cycle is the best, IMO. He gets Beethoven. Such a wonderful cycle.


Well now I have a problem. What can I do at this point but seek out an entire Jeggy Beethoven cycle, eh?


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## Ras

It's really the symphony in which Ludvig came of age - grew up and became himself BEETHOVEN with loud capital letters - became his own self-made man - or God almost…

My favorite recordings : 
*Georg Solti with The Chicago Symphony Orchestra on Decca.*

and the one with *Franz Brüggen live from Rotterdam 2011 on the Glossa* label - It's the only symphony that really rocks in that box though.


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## Kiki

My recent favourite. When Jurowski hits the mark, he's fantastic.


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## Merl

Kiki said:


> My recent favourite. When Jurowski hits the mark, he's fantastic.


Yep, it's a cracker.


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## Guest

honeck and his orchestra are really on top for beethoven and richard strauss; his eroica is one of the best ever and with the great sonics i wonder who still wants to listen to toscanini, klemperer and the like ; i am totally baffled by the comments of some other members who do not seem to get it


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## Kiki

Bit the bullet... Honeck rules! Full stop.


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## Brahmsianhorn

My ranking of Eroica recordings.

***** = immortal
****1/2 = great
**** = good
***1/2 = above average
*** = average

1. Wilhelm Furtwängler (1944) (Tahra, Music & Arts, Orfeo, Preiser) *****
2. Wilhelm Furtwängler (12/8/1952) (Tahra, Music & Arts, Audite) *****
3. Wilhelm Furtwängler (1950) (Tahra) ****1/2
4. Wilhelm Furtwängler (9/4/53) (EMI Great Conductors) ****1/2
5. Otto Klemperer (1957) (Testament) ****1/2
6. Otto Klemperer (1959) (EMI) ****1/2
7. Wilhelm Furtwängler (1952) (EMI) ****1/2
8. Arturo Toscanini (1939) (RCA, Music & Arts, Naxos) ****1/2
9. Sir John Barbirolli (Dutton) ****1/2
10. Herbert von Karajan (1984) (DG) ****1/2
11. Erich Kleiber (1950) (Decca) ****1/2
12. Paul van Kempen (Philips) ****1/2
13. Otto Klemperer (1955) (EMI) ****1/2
14. Rudolf Kempe (1961) (Testament) ****1/2
15. Karl Böhm (1961) (DG) ****1/2
16. Hans Pfitzner (Preiser, Naxos, DG) ****1/2
17. Felix Weingartner (Naxos, Opus) ****1/2
18. Erich Kleiber (1955) (Decca) ****1/2
19. Bruno Walter (1941) (Dante Lys) ***1/2
20. Herbert von Karajan (1962) (DG) ****1/2
21. Hermann Abendroth (1949) (Music & Arts) ****1/2
22. Sir Colin Davis (Philips) ****1/2
23. William Steinberg (EMI, XXI) ****1/2
24. Eugen Jochum (DG) ****
25. Karl Böhm (1972) (DG) ****
26. Bruno Walter (Sony) ****
27. Leonard Bernstein (Sony) ****
28. Eugene Ormandy (Sony) ****
29. Hans Schmidt-Isserstedt (Decca) ****
30. Andre Cluytens (EMI, Royal Classics) ****
31. Carl Schuricht (DG, Profil, Dante Lys) ****
32. Evgeny Mravinsky (Classical Masters) ****
33. Hermann Scherchen (1958) (MCA, Westminster) ****
34. Nikolaus Harnoncourt (Elatus, Teldec) ****
35. Eugen Jochum (1937) (Teldec, Magic Talent) ****
36. Jascha Horenstein (1957) (Vox) ****
37. Bruno Walter (1957) (Music & Arts) ****
38. Eugen Jochum (Philips) ****
39. Bruno Walter (1949) (United Archives, Urania, Dante Lys) ****
40. Pierre Monteux (Decca) ****
41. George Szell (Sony) ****
42. Carlo Maria Giulini (DG) ****
43. Leopold Stokowski (RCA) ***1/2
44. Sir Adrian Boult (Vanguard) ***/12
45. Rudolf Kempe (1973) (EMI) ***1/2
46. Eugen Jochum (EMI) ***1/2
47. Eugen Jochum (1977) (Tahra) ***1/2
48. Leonard Bernstein (DG) ***1/2
49. Sir Thomas Beecham (Sony) ***1/2
50. Rafael Kubelik (DG, Belart) ***1/2
51. Sir Neville Marriner (Philips) ***1/2
52. Sir Simon Rattle (EMI) ***1/2
53. Gunter Wand (Testament) ***1/2
54. Herbert von Karajan (1977) (DG) ***1/2
55. Carl Schuricht (DG) ***1/2
56. James Levine (DG) ***1/2
57. Sir Simon Rattle (EMI) ***1/2
58. Jordi Savall (AliaVox) ***1/2
59. Wolfgang Sawallisch (EMI) ***1/2
60. Roger Norrington (EMI, Virgin) ***1/2
61. Kurt Masur (Philips) ***1/2
62. Claudio Abbado (BPO) (DG) ***1/2
63. Günter Wand (1989) (RCA) ***1/2
64. Charles Mackerras (EMI, Classics for Pleasure) ***1/2
65. Herbert Blomstedt (Decca) ***1/2
66. Victor de Sabata (Decca) ***
67. Fritz Reiner (1955) (RCA) ***
68. Erich Leinsdorf (RCA) ***
69. David Zinman (Arte Nova) ***
70. Franz Konwitschny (Berlin Classics) ***
71. Josef Krips (Everest, Madacy) ***
72. John Eliot Gardiner (DG Archiv) ***


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## Brahmsianhorn

Re. above, obviously I don't advocate everyone necessarily purchase 5 Furtwanglers!

These are the 9 that I think are absolute musts to at least hear once:

Wilhelm Furtwängler (1944) (Tahra, Music & Arts, Orfeo, Preiser)
Wilhelm Furtwängler (12/8/1952) (Tahra, Music & Arts, Audite)
Otto Klemperer (1957) (Testament)
Otto Klemperer (1959) (EMI)
Arturo Toscanini (1939) (RCA, Music & Arts, Naxos)
Sir John Barbirolli (Dutton)
Herbert von Karajan (1984) (DG) 
Erich Kleiber (1950) (Decca)
Paul van Kempen (Philips)


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## Merl

marc bollansee said:


> honeck and his orchestra are really on top for beethoven and richard strauss; his eroica is one of the best ever and with the great sonics i wonder who still wants to listen to toscanini, klemperer and the like ; i am totally baffled by the comments of some other members who do not seem to get it


Its just a matter of taste, and i do like some of the very old recordings, but there is a hardcore of posters who won't listen to newer performances, believing that all the best Eroicas were made pre-1960. You wont change that, im afraid. However, they're the ones missing out. Many of my favourite Eroicas are les than 20 years old but there are some that i still adore (Karajan 84, Scherchen, Szell, Steinberg, etc). I still struggle to listen to Toscanini's scratchy old performances, Abendroth's dreay Eroica.or Mengelberg's hideous sounding 3rd.


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## Larkenfield

Honeck's entire B3 can be heard online starting here:


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## Brahmsianhorn

Merl said:


> Its just a matter of taste, and i do like some of the very old recordings, but there is a hardcore of posters who won't listen to newer performances, believing that all the best Eroicas were made pre-1960. You wont change that, im afraid. However, they're the ones missing out. Many of my favourite Eroicas are les than 20 years old but there are some that i still adore (Karajan 84, Scherchen, Szell, Steinberg, etc). I still struggle to listen to Toscanini's scratchy old performances, Abendroth's dreay Eroica.or Mengelberg's hideous sounding 3rd.


I for one will listen to anything. If a modern recording is an improvement on the past, why would I not listen?

I find the Honeck interpretation to be comparatively cheapening, boring, and soulless. I suppose it's great if you haven't heard many Eroicas. But why limit yourself?


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## Merl

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I for one will listen to anything. If a modern recording is an improvement on the past, why would I not listen?


I wasn't having a dig at you, Brahmsianhorn! It was just a general observation (and slight exasperation) at those that won't accept anything 'new'. I agree it's great to go back and listen to the classics too. My favourite Beethoven recordings probably span 60 years. I like that.


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## KenOC

I hadn’t heard Honeck’s Eroica, and so listened to the first movement (so far) linked from this thread. Very much to my taste! It’s a crisp no-nonsense reading with a lot of energy. The sound is transparent and a lot of my favorite details are brought out more clearly than in many other recordings. The orchestra is quite virtuosic with the heft of a big band but the “period” sound of a reduced ensemble – the best of both worlds.

Did I say I liked it? I’ll be looking for the whole symphony on YouTube and hoping, perhaps, for a Honeck cycle at some point.


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## wkasimer

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I find the Honeck interpretation to be comparatively cheapening, boring, and soulless. I suppose it's great if you haven't heard many Eroicas.


Alternatively, it might be that some people who've heard dozens of Eroicas actually have different taste, and prefer Honeck's.

It's a little condescending, if not insulting, to assume that those with different tastes are less sophisticated and/or experienced listeners.


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## KenOC

Listening to the Eroica again this morning. What a fantastic work! It's obviously good that Beethoven's symphonies are so different, each from the others, but still it's a shame that he didn't write another like the Eroica! I guess the 7th will have to do...


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## Mandryka

anyone like this?


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## Mandryka

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Re. above, obviously I don't advocate everyone necessarily purchase 5 Furtwanglers!
> 
> These are the 9 that I think are absolute musts to at least hear once:
> 
> Wilhelm Furtwängler (1944) (Tahra, Music & Arts, Orfeo, Preiser)
> Wilhelm Furtwängler (12/8/1952) (Tahra, Music & Arts, Audite)
> Otto Klemperer (1957) (Testament)
> Otto Klemperer (1959) (EMI)
> Arturo Toscanini (1939) (RCA, Music & Arts, Naxos)
> Sir John Barbirolli (Dutton)
> Herbert von Karajan (1984) (DG)
> Erich Kleiber (1950) (Decca)
> Paul van Kempen (Philips)


You mean you really don't like Pfitzner's?


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## Brahmsianhorn

Mandryka said:


> You mean you really don't like Pfitzner's?


See my list on the previous page. I categorize it as a "great" recording.


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## gellio

Fritz Kobus said:


> Well now I have a problem. What can I do at this point but seek out an entire Jeggy Beethoven cycle, eh?


It really is just fantastic. I was suprised I like it so much as was not a huge HIP person when I bought it. That has changed (although I like it all). The performances are just so riveting I always go back to them even when I try to listen to my other cycle recordings.


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## Ras

*It's a long way to Tipperary it's a long way to go...*

If *Honeck's Beethoven cycle* is going to be completed it may take a while, because the first release is from 2015 and the second instalment was released three years later.

This is the first Beethoven release by *Honeck with the 5th and 7th* :


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## Malx

Ras said:


> If *Honeck's Beethoven cycle* is going to be completed it may take a while, because the first release is from 2015 and the second instalment was released three years later.
> 
> This is the first Beethoven release by *Honeck with the 5th and 7th* :
> 
> View attachment 111227


May be a sign that he is going to live with the individual Symphonies before entrusting his thoughts to a recording - that could be a good thing long term but not so good for impatient ageing collectors - a group I can put myself into!


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## Merl

Ras said:


> If *Honeck's Beethoven cycle* is going to be completed it may take a while, because the first release is from 2015 and the second instalment was released three years later.
> 
> This is the first Beethoven release by *Honeck with the 5th and 7th* :
> 
> View attachment 111227


And that's a desert island disc for me......stunning!


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## merlinus

Listened to Honeck/PSO LvB 3 (24/192) last evening. Superb SQ, excellent playing, and an interpretation that was totally lacking in plumbing the depths of feeling and emotion. Too fast, skating on the surface, and empty, for me. 

A far, far cry from Furtwangler, Giulini, and even Barenboim/SKB.


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## Brahmsianhorn

merlinus said:


> Listened to Honeck/PSO LvB 3 (24/192) last evening. Superb SQ, excellent playing, and an interpretation that was totally lacking in plumbing the depths of feeling and emotion. Too fast, skating on the surface, and empty, for me.
> 
> A far, far cry from Furtwangler, Giulini, and even Barenboim/SKB.


So I'm not the only one? I was beginning to feel like an old, lost soul. To me it is like "efficiency" Beethoven. What's the point?


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## merlinus

Brahmsianhorn said:


> So I'm not the only one? I was beginning to feel like an old, lost soul. To me it is like "efficiency" Beethoven. What's the point?


You are definitely not alone! I feel the same way about Vanska/MSO, Thielemann/VPO, almost all so-called HIP, and many others. One of my favorite conductors for LvB is Ferenc Fricsay with BPO, but he only recorded 3, 5, 7, 8, and 9.


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## CnC Bartok

merlinus said:


> You are definitely not alone! I feel the same way about Vanska/MSO, Thielemann/VPO, almost all so-called HIP, and many others. One of my favorite conductors for LvB is Ferenc Fricsay with BPO, but he only recorded 3, 5, 7, 8, and 9.


Fricsay may have only done those five Symphonies, but aren't they all marvellous performances?!? Magic!


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## realdealblues

I love the "Eroica" symphony. I find it hard to understand why anyone wouldn't enjoy it.

As far as recordings, a few personal favorites of mine would be:

Kleiber/Concertgebouw Orchestra [1950, Mono]
Some less than great sound and orchestral playing but really a special recording with its just merciless funeral march.

Klemperer/Philharmonia [1955, Mono]
The stereo recording has better playing and better sound, but I love performance of the old mono recording more.

Szell/Cleveland [1957]
Hard to beat Szell's drive and orchestral perfection. The finale is the big show stopper. Those two amazing first movements seem to eclipse what comes after but Szell manages to remind us that there is a screamer of a finale.

Munch/Boston [1957]
Tied with Szell for me for much the same reasons. Just a magnificent recording.

Probably a dozen others I truly love for various reasons, Toscanini/NBC, Wand/NDR, Bernstein/Vienna, etc. but Szell & Munch probably get the most play from me these days when I want to hear the Eroica.


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## GAJ

As all my Eroica listening takes place on a car CD (Karajan's 84 version) it gets played over and over again. 

How can a great work such as this sound even greater the next time you listen to it?

I think the second movement is the most 'emotionally ahead of its time' stretch of music ever written.


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## merlinus

Robert Pickett said:


> Fricsay may have only done those five Symphonies, but aren't they all marvellous performances?!? Magic!


Yes, they are marvelous and magical. It is a great loss that he died relatively young, and that HvK then took over BPO.

I just listened to his LvB 3. He brings out so much depth, feeling, and emotion in the music that Honeck and many others completely miss. And the SQ is very good.


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## Merl

merlinus said:


> Yes, they are marvelous and magical. It is a great loss that he died relatively young, and that HvK then took over BPO.
> 
> I just listened to his LvB 3. He brings out so much depth, feeling, and emotion in the music that Honeck and many others completely miss. And the SQ is very good.


Apart from a superb 9th, i find Fricsay's Beethoven pedestrian, bloated and rather dull. The flabbiest of all being a Celi-esque Eroica that could put a glass eye to sleep. Isn't the Eroica supposed to be a celebratory symphony of heroism? As far as Thielemann and Vanska, mentioned earlier, are concerned they turn in poor Eroicas too. Just because an Eroica is true HIP or historically informed doesnt make it wrong. Have a listen to Weil, Savall, Haselbock or Norrington's Hannsler Eroicas and youll see what i mean. Dont get me wrong there are plenty of slow Eroicas i like but theres something more celebratory and visceral about readings that are fleet of foot or are willing to play with tempi. Take Scherchen, for example, who half a century ago turned in one of the quickest but exciting 3rds ever. Its a tremendous account and Scherchen wasnt afraid to pull tempi around, often slowing and then speeding up. There are some excellent modern or more modern Eroicas out there (Lan Shui, Skrowaczewski, Haselbock, Boyd) that are just as awesome as the old standards (Szell, Karajan, etc). I reckon i have around 200 Eroicas and im so glad im not limited to the analgue era. There are so many great Beethoven symphony performances out there and so many new ones to come.


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## Brahmsianhorn

I honestly could care less about tempi. It is about what goes on between the time the baton is raised and it is put down. I am only concerned about the commitment of the performance and its ability to move me. Two of my absolute favorite Eroicas are Furtwangler and Toscanini. Very different approaches, but both very effective.

When I hear Gardiner, for example, I only hear fast for the sake of being fast. Nothing moves me and I get bored.


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## ccar

_"No! No! Nein! Is-a not Napoleon! Is-a not 'Itler! Is-a not Mussolini! Is Allegro con brio! … Da-caaaaa-po!"
_
(Toscanini rehearsing the first movement of the Eroica - London 1937)

•	3 Dec 1938, NBC - 13:45 / 16:29 / 5:23 / 10:45 (Music and Arts)
•	28 Oct 1939, NBC - 14:04 / 16:23/ 5:21 / 10:37 (Music and Arts)
•	1 Sept 1945, NBC - 13:41 / 14:21 / 5:18 / 10:46 (Music and Arts)
•	Nov-Dec 1949, NBC - 13:46 / 15:34 / 5:11 / 11:11 (RCA) 
•	6 Dec 1953, NBC - 14:50 / 15:20 / 5:21 / 11:10 (RCA)

Although we don't have complete recordings of the Eroica before 1938, reports describe Toscanini took much different tempi in his earlier performances: during a Berlin 1930 performance with the New York Philharmonic his Marcia Funebre was nearly 20 minutes long. Later he considered he had "the courage to take the right tempo" and although his performances maintained a more consistent global tempo and his typical lean phrasing and drive, they also show considerable differences in orchestral inflections, fluctuations and balance. As an example we may just listen the opening movement of the Eroica in two of the available Toscanini recordings - 1939 and in 1945.











Apart from the obvious differences in the sound quality I believe there are also considerable interpretative differences in these readings. For me, the 1939 Toscanini uses more marked dynamic effects and more expression inflections and in the end it seems to infuse more drama and darkness into the whole movement. While in 1945 what I listen is a much more distended phrasing with an almost singing and joyful character. Obviously, this may not be completely unrelated with the different historic moments of the two performances.


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## DavidA

This his one of the great, revolutionary musical works which (whether Haydn said it or not) changed the symphony. I have a number of really fine recordings of this but a few that really don't do the business all through. It is important that the first movement really is allegro con brio and that's where Klemperer falls down - just too slow. A superb funeral march though.
Furtwangler is nothing less than interesting as is Gardiner from a different point of view but the performance in Eroica film is actually better than his audio version.
Toscanini volcanic
I have four terrific recordings by Karajan - the 1982 stands up to the others very well in spite of the set being generally less interesting. But this Eroica is inspired. 
Norrington is rather metrical.
Stokowski a little slow in the first movement but full of imagination]
Kubelik highly musical as you would expect
Chailly a real disappointment - just feels rushed


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## DavidA

merlinus said:


> Listened to Honeck/PSO LvB 3 (24/192) last evening. Superb SQ, excellent playing, and an interpretation that was totally lacking in plumbing the depths of feeling and emotion. Too fast, skating on the surface, and empty, for me.
> 
> *A far, far cry from Furtwangler, Giulini, and even Barenboim/SKB*.


Is that a positive or a negative? The marking is Allegro con brio!


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## DavidA

DavidA said:


> Is that a positive or a negative? The marking is Allegro con brio!


Just listened to this fiery performance. I couldn't identify with the person who said it 'totally lacking in plumbing the depths of feeling and emotion'. This is surely what Beethoven intended by Allegro con brio


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## Itullian

Allegro con brio is forward movement with strength or oldness.
Not fast!


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## DavidA

Itullian said:


> Allegro con brio is forward movement with strength or oldness.
> Not fast!


Allegro con brio - 'At a fast tempo, and with spirit' (literally 'with brilliance')


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## Heck148

Samuel Antek, iirc, recounts a story about Toscanini, regarding his changing approaches to the "Eroica" Antek, a violist in the NBC Symphony, had gone to AT's house to get some coaching on a concert he was conducting with a local group....while there, a radio broadcast began featuring "Eroica"....Toscanini erupted!! <<Idiot!! fool!! completely wrong tempo!! awful!! etc, etc.>>...the broadcast ended, announcer intones <<you have just heard Arturo Toscanini conduct a performance of Beethoven's Symphony #3 "Eroica"!! lol!!

Toscanini's greatest "EROICA, imo, is the NBC '49....a magnificent performance, my favorite "Eroica", along with Reiner/CSO '54, and von Matacic/CzPO from late 50s......


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## DavidA

Heck148 said:


> Samuel Antek, iirc, recounts a story about Toscanini, regarding his changing approaches to the "Eroica" Antek, a violist in the NBC Symphony, had gone to AT's house to get some coaching on a concert he was conducting with a local group....while there, a radio broadcast began featuring "Eroica"....Toscanini erupted!! <<Idiot!! fool!! completely wrong tempo!! awful!! etc, etc.>>...the broadcast ended, announcer intones <<you have just heard Arturo Toscanini conduct a performance of Beethoven's Symphony #3 "Eroica"!! lol!!


Thank goodness the days of the Toscanini-type ill mannered outbursts are over.


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## KenOC

That sweat-drenched face was bearing down upon us like the archangel of vengeance himself as we almost disemboweled ourselves with feverish effort. Then suddenly, a spine-chilling wail: "Pi-a-a-a-n-o-o! Bassi! Contrabassi! You grunt away like pigs! You sound as if you were scratching your bellies -- szshrump! szshrump!" he would bellow, while, tearing at his clothes, he viciously pantomined the scratching. "Corpo del vostro Dio! PI-A-A-NO!"

"But Maestro," a player would sometimes protest in a small, hesitant, and resentful voice. "My part is printed 'forte.' " "What you say?" the Old Man would growl menacingly, unbelievingly, distracted for the moment from his tirade. "It says 'forte,' " the player would reply, this time in an even smaller, more apologetic voice.

"What? Forte? FORTE?" with an air of incredulity. "What means 'forte'? Ignorante! Is a stupid word -- as stupid as you! Is a thousand fortes--all kinds of fortes. Sometimes forte is pia-a-a-no, piano is forte! Accidenti! [Damn it!] You call yourself a musician? O, per Dio santissimo! You play here in THIS orchestra? In a village cafe house you belong! You don't listen to what others play. Your nose in the music -- szshrump! szshrump! You hear nothing! You cover up the oboe solo! One poor oboe -- one! -- and you szshrump! szshrump! Where are your ears? Look at me! Contra-ba-a-ss-i!" in a long, drawn-out wail. "Tutti! Tutti! Vergogna! [Shame!]"

-- from Samuel Antek, "This Was Toscanini", 1963​


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## Heck148

DavidA said:


> Thank goodness the days of the Toscanini-type ill mannered outbursts are over.


yes, it's certainly better for orchestra musicians....but those old tyrants had a control, an inspiration, an ability to inspire extreme alertness and motivation from their orchestras....not nice people, for sure, but they produced great performances at an astounding rate.


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## DavidA

Heck148 said:


> yes, it's certainly better for orchestra musicians....but those old tyrants had a control, an inspiration, an ability to inspire extreme alertness and motivation from their orchestras....not nice people, for sure, but they produced great performances at an astounding rate.


Yes but conductors who didn't carry on like that also produced great performances. It is simply unnecessary. It just shows weakness not strength to behave like that. 'The man who cannot control his temper is like a city without walls' as the saying goes


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

One of my favorite symphonies. Absolutely love it. 

Not a big fan of the recommended recordings on in the OP. Sound quality is sub par and to me sound quality is very important.

My current favorte recordings are:

1. Guilini with the LAPO
2. Wand with the NDR symphony orchestra


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## DavidA

KenOC said:


> That sweat-drenched face was bearing down upon us like the archangel of vengeance himself as we almost disemboweled ourselves with feverish effort. Then suddenly, a spine-chilling wail: "Pi-a-a-a-n-o-o! Bassi! Contrabassi! You grunt away like pigs! You sound as if you were scratching your bellies -- szshrump! szshrump!" he would bellow, while, tearing at his clothes, he viciously pantomined the scratching. "Corpo del vostro Dio! PI-A-A-NO!"
> 
> "But Maestro," a player would sometimes protest in a small, hesitant, and resentful voice. "My part is printed 'forte.' " "What you say?" the Old Man would growl menacingly, unbelievingly, distracted for the moment from his tirade. "It says 'forte,' " the player would reply, this time in an even smaller, more apologetic voice.
> 
> "What? Forte? FORTE?" with an air of incredulity. "What means 'forte'? Ignorante! Is a stupid word -- as stupid as you! Is a thousand fortes--all kinds of fortes. Sometimes forte is pia-a-a-no, piano is forte! Accidenti! [Damn it!] You call yourself a musician? O, per Dio santissimo! You play here in THIS orchestra? In a village cafe house you belong! You don't listen to what others play. Your nose in the music -- szshrump! szshrump! You hear nothing! You cover up the oboe solo! One poor oboe -- one! -- and you szshrump! szshrump! Where are your ears? Look at me! Contra-ba-a-ss-i!" in a long, drawn-out wail. "Tutti! Tutti! Vergogna! [Shame!]"
> 
> -- from Samuel Antek, "This Was Toscanini", 1963​


Yes and if he'd have carried on like that off his podium someone would have clocked him one. It's just a form of bullying.


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## Brahmsianhorn

The ‘39 Toscanini is astounding. Only the last bit of gravitas is missing from the funeral march. The best overall interpretation remains ‘44 Furtwängler, so I wholeheartedly agree with Trout there.

I must say Trout’s lists are consistently illuminating. Not only does he obviously do his homework, but the lists show quite a bit of variety.

Again I have to recommend the live ‘57 Klemperer on Testament. If you haven’t heard it you’re missing out.


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## Heck148

DavidA said:


> Yes but conductors who didn't carry on like that also produced great performances.


true, Monteux and Walter were courteous to their musicians and they produced great results...but those were different times, different standards. I don't know how the tyrants of before would fare in today's musical world, but they certainly succeeded in their own times.



> it just shows weakness not strength to behave like that. 'The man who cannot control his temper is like a city without walls' as the saying goes


but not all the tyrants lost their tempers...some were just mean, nasty and sarcastic - Toscanini and Rodzinski had volcanic tempers, tho Toscanini rarely fired anyone on the spot....not so with Rodzinski, he was famous for blowing his stack and making summary firings....Reiner, Szell, Mravinsky didn't lose their tempers as such, they were just sobs who wielded total control over their orchestras....


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## Heck148

KenOC said:


> That sweat-drenched face was bearing down upon us like the archangel of vengeance himself as we almost disemboweled ourselves with feverish effort. Then suddenly, a spine-chilling wail: "Pi-a-a-a-n-o-o! Bassi! Contrabassi! You grunt away like pigs! You sound as if you were scratching your bellies -- szshrump! szshrump!" he would bellow, while, tearing at his clothes, he viciously pantomined the scratching. "Corpo del vostro Dio! PI-A-A-NO!"
> 
> "But Maestro," a player would sometimes protest in a small, hesitant, and resentful voice. "My part is printed 'forte.' " "What you say?" the Old Man would growl menacingly, unbelievingly, distracted for the moment from his tirade. "It says 'forte,' " the player would reply, this time in an even smaller, more apologetic voice.
> 
> "What? Forte? FORTE?" with an air of incredulity. "What means 'forte'? Ignorante! Is a stupid word -- as stupid as you! Is a thousand fortes--all kinds of fortes. Sometimes forte is pia-a-a-no, piano is forte! Accidenti! [Damn it!] You call yourself a musician? O, per Dio santissimo! You play here in THIS orchestra? In a village cafe house you belong! You don't listen to what others play. Your nose in the music -- szshrump! szshrump! You hear nothing! You cover up the oboe solo! One poor oboe -- one! -- and you szshrump! szshrump! Where are your ears? Look at me! Contra-ba-a-ss-i!" in a long, drawn-out wail. "Tutti! Tutti! Vergogna! [Shame!]"
> 
> -- from Samuel Antek, "This Was Toscanini", 1963​


the thing is - Toscanini was right!! of course, he could have made the point without all the histrionics!! lol!! :lol:


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## Heck148

Brahmsianhorn said:


> The '39 Toscanini is astounding.


it is good, so is the '53, but the '49 is the gem of the collection...tremendous effort.


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## KenOC

One interesting Eroica is that of Daniel Grossmann with the "Ensemble 28," a small orchestra exactly matching the complement that premiered the work at Prince Lobkowitz's palace. A surprisingly effective performance.


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## Larkenfield

Beethoven: Symphony #3 "Eroica" ("Heroic") in E-flat, op. 55 for jazz trio happily turned up this:






Proves that Ludwig is no longer a hapless deaf unknown. But Toscanini or Reiner probably would have yelled at them.


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## ccar

We have at least 11 surviving recordings of Beethoven's Third Symphony conducted by Furtwangler. Four of these were recorded in 1952: two with the Vienna Philharmonic, the "studio" take from 26-27 November and a live performance on the 30th. November; and later that year two live performances with the Berlin Philharmonic, one on the 7th. December and another from the next day concert on the 8th.

The last 1952 live recordings are a rare opportunity to explore how a conductor with the same orchestra and in the same hall and concert conditions can give us two readings with such different character only one day apart. In the last 1952 live concert (on the 8th December) Furtwangler is more expansive and takes a broader tempo. However, he achieves a fantastic concentration with unique nuances of dynamics and phrasing that make this one of the most admirable readings of the Eroica.

Then, a more challenging and interesting comparison will be with his epic "war recording" of 1944, where Furtwangler is even more incandescent and dramatic.

BPO, Berlin, live 7th December 1952 - 15:42 / 18:01 / 6:23 / 12:26 (Tahra)
BPO, Berlin, live 8th December 1952 - 16:37 / 18:55 / 6.37 / 12:57 (Audite)
VPO, Vienna, "studio" 19-20th December 1944 - 15:34 / 17:35 / 6:32 / 12:42 (Tahra)


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## KenOC

This thread moved me to revisit Honeck’s Eroica. Yes, that’s my kind of performance!

It shows how much my preferences in this music have changed over the years. Now I want a crisp and precision performance with lots of drive and energy – Honeck, Gardiner, even Liebowitz from back in the 60s. The older-style performances, even from the greatest conductors of yesteryear, sound ungainly by comparison, a bit vague and elephantine with smeared attacks and sadly lacking the dash and “brio” that I want from this music.


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## Merl

KenOC said:


> This thread moved me to revisit Honeck's Eroica. Yes, that's my kind of performance!
> 
> It shows how much my preferences in this music have changed over the years. Now I want a crisp and precision performance with lots of drive and energy - Honeck, Gardiner, even Liebowitz from back in the 60s. The older-style performances, even from the greatest conductors of yesteryear, sound ungainly by comparison, a bit vague with smeared attacks and sadly lacking the dash and "brio" that I want from this music.


Interestingly, of all the symphonies I find the Eroica definitely benefits most from a pared-down performance with plenty of drive. Immerseel, Lan Shui, Haselbock, Krivine, Savall and Weill all get a lot out of the Eroica without it needing to be like a lumpy, old semolina pudding.


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## Guest

like art rock said the eroica was certainly the best symphony in the early 19 th century and it was also a symphony that was immensely innovative; so it clearly belongs to the best up to now; we might prefer mahler or shostakovich; listening to the beethoven cycles by karajan, vänskä, p.järvi and my beloved versions by honeck i realized that the structure of Beethoven's symphonies is not so elaborate; it is based on very strong foundations but does not have the change in moods that we find in mahler of shosta, because the structure is a bit rigid; it is not a criticism but just an observation; it is also probaby linked to changes in lifestyle and the historical events that mahler and shosta went thru; like merl i want to draw your attention to jos van immerseel's versions on period instruments of beethoven's symphonies with his ensemble Anima Eterna; they shed a different light on beethoven's music


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## DavidA

Of Karajan's four recorded studio versions, the 77 one os of interest for the fast speed of the first movement which actually gets quite close to Beethoven's open impossible metronome mark


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## Merl

As I mentioned on the Tennstedt Mahler thread there's also a really good live account by Tennstedt with the NDR. Lovely performance and definitely Tennstedt's best ever Beethoven recording.


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## DarkAngel

Brahmsianhorn said:


> *The '39 Toscanini is astounding*. Only the last bit of gravitas is missing from the funeral march. The best overall interpretation remains '44 Furtwängler, so I wholeheartedly agree with Trout there.


Good news for fans of 39 Toscanini set, Andrew Rose of Pristine XR now has access to a new source the original acetate transcription discs of radio broadcasts which he thinks have not been played since recorded so they are in "pristine" condition, the sound quality is now quite amazing......high quality sound sample linked below

https://www.pristineclassical.com/collections/artist-arturo-toscanini/products/pasc552










Agree with earlier post about Jordi Savall, goes completely outside his normal baroque range of work to produce an exciting take on B3, you can hear new colors, clarified textures and slightly different emphasis taken at swift tempo that overall work wonderfully and at the same time are a refreshing change of pace, of the period instrument/HIP versions this is best so far

I dismissed this when first released as just hype but eventually gave it a listen, now I love it.....
(also as I recall it was hideously expensive)


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## HistoryJoe

KenOC said:


> This thread moved me to revisit Honeck's Eroica. Yes, that's my kind of performance!


I'm in the middle of Swafford's Beethoven bio and have been listening to many different recordings of Eroica during that part of the book. Wow! The Honeck was completely unknown to me and is really wonderful. Powerful at the right times and tender when it should be. Propulsive, balanced. Very nice

Thanks for the head's up in this thread.


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## mbhaub

How's Swafford's book? His Brahms bio was really good.


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## KenOC

mbhaub said:


> How's Swafford's book? His Brahms bio was really good.


I can recommend Swafford. He has a lot of background on Beethoven's times, the various fates that befell his friends and patrons, and so forth. Most of this is lacking in Cooper and other recent bios. An enjoyable read, if you have the time for a thick book.


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## flamencosketches

I think maybe the best Eroica I've ever heard is by Furtwängler with the Vienna Philharmonic.









I have it as part of a huge EMI box set. I'd heard it once a few months ago and I'm glad to have it on disc now. Phenomenal clarity and pacing. And I should clarify that I'm not really a huge Furtwängler fan.


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## HistoryJoe

KenOC said:


> I can recommend Swafford. He has a lot of background on Beethoven's times, the various fates that befell his friends and patrons, and so forth. Most of this is lacking in Cooper and other recent bios. An enjoyable read, if you have the time for a thick book.


Very strongly concur. They both alternate sections between a stretch of biography followed by analysis of music he was writing at the time and how life and particular players/patrons influenced particular works. Relevant score samples are scattered throughout which is nice (including quotes from the sketchbooks). He stresses the ties from Beethoven to Brahms time: Simrock, various theaters, dynasties, etc.

I've been reading a lot of Habsburg history lately and in both books he adds some nice hyper-local detail that more political books ignore. The best recent ones I've read are Mitchell's "The Grand Strategy" 2018 (excellent foreign policy coverage) and Pieter's "Habsburg Empire" 2016 (internal relations). This really payed off when I hit a phrase like "Brahms in the Prater" and knew exactly what it was talking about. I've found reading the ebook version of these tomes is much less intimidating than cracking open a thick brick-of-a-book!


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## MarkW

A minority opinion: Swafford is not my favorite Beethoven book. Has some curious affectations (esp. in the Eroica section) and tends to run on when not needed. But that's just me. Results may vary.


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## AlexD

I just saw the 3rd performed at the Sheldonian theatre in Oxford by the Orchestra of Time & Truth.

It was jolly good - very well played. 

My father made an interesting comment. He'd seen the 3rd performed at the Royal Festival hall and found that it was overdone - but the Orchestrra was a bit bigger to make the acoustics in the larger hall work.

The Sheldonian is a building that is the right "size" for a concert hall in Beethoven's time - and with the smaller orchestra, the music came across much more subtly. 

The recordings I have make the 3rd sound like a muscular piece of work with a lot of drive. The version I heard yesterday was much more subtle. It was more like a gently flowing stream, than a crashing waterfall.


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## Joachim Raff

Just wanted to know what anyone thought about this version. Best of all?


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## Heck148

Joachim Raff said:


> Just wanted to know what anyone thought about this version. Best of all?


Great recording!! One of my very favorites, along with Toscanini/NBC '49, and Reiner/CSO '54
von Matacic, little known in the US, was a very fine conductor..


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## Granate

_Beethoven: Symphony No.3, Klangkollectiv Wien, Rémy Ballot_

Oldschool conducting meets sort of chamber-classical players. It's either the miking setting or the players' virtuosity, but there are some upsetting and wonderful things in this account so far. I prefer this style way better than the latest Currentzis No.5 with Musicaeterna.

Of all the modern recordings of this symphony, which could you consider a favourite? I was trying to find a thread away from Current Listening to post my thoughts about this recording, which actually makes me want more Beethoven recordings with the same forces.


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## Allegro Con Brio

My favorite modern recording I've heard is probably Skrowaczewski (spelled it right on the first try, yay!). Plenty of drive and verve without sacrificing soul, which I find so important in this music. For this one I really do tend to prefer the old-school performances, though I can appreciate all sorts of approaches tempo-wise; someone earlier in this thread said that a lot of HIP/modern recordings lack the necessary weight, and I wholeheartedly agree. Sometimes it just seems like "speed for speed's sake," and it can devolve into a whole lot of senseless huffing, puffing, and scrubbing away to get to some unclear destination (especially in the finale, which I so often find rushed). So I love the Klemperer (stereo), Erich Kleiber (now _that_ is something special), and Barbirolli; even though their first movement tempi are generally not close to my username, I find that the "brio" comes from their wholehearted dedication to the score and the playing that just digs a little bit deeper into every phrase and finds meaning in _all_ the notes that Beethoven wrote. The funeral march really makes it or breaks it, though - one thing I can't stand is a wimpy funeral march that moves along at a dance pace (Gardiner) like the pallbearers just want to get it over with. Furtwangler and Klemperer conduct this movement the greatest I've ever heard.


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## Merl

Granate said:


> _Beethoven: Symphony No.3, Klangkollectiv Wien, Rémy Ballot_
> 
> Oldschool conducting meets sort of chamber-classical players. It's either the miking setting or the players' virtuosity, but there are some upsetting and wonderful things in this account so far. I prefer this style way better than the latest Currentzis No.5 with Musicaeterna.
> 
> Of all the modern recordings of this symphony, which could you consider a favourite? I was trying to find a thread away from Current Listening to post my thoughts about this recording, which actually makes me want more Beethoven recordings with the same forces.


I've played the Ballot recording a few times but it doesn't quite do it for me, I'm afraid. I much prefer Lan Shui, Weil, Adam Fischer and Honeck doing the Eroica. The Weil recording is one I've long championed but the Honeck surpassed that performance, for me. From the past 10 years there's excellent ones from Blomstedt, Jordan (Paris), Haselbock and especially Lan Shui and very good Eroicas (but a little older - however still start of the century) from Immerseel, Norrington (Hannsler), Skrowaczewski, Jurowski (LPO), Boyd, Jarvi, Albrecht, Haitink (LSO) and Krivine. I'm also getting a soft spot for Masur's newer LPO recording of the Eroica (much better than that gloopy one he did in the 70s and better than his 2nd attempt too).

BTW, Granate, have you tried the Compagnia de Punto' minimal orchestra Eroica (using Ries and Eber's edition)? Sounds very different. Oh and before anyone mentions Savall it's NOT a modern recording. It's 24 years old!


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## SixFootScowl

Hard to beat Gardiner's recording of the Third.


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## Knorf

The Bernstein/NYPO Eroica I always thought was the best from that cycle, and I've kept it. It's Bernstein at his best without going overboard. 

Not saying it's my favorite, but I'm not sure I have one! I enjoy the Savall recording mentioned up thread, as well as Abbado/Berlin, Haitink/LSO, Karajan '62. Oh, and yes, Skrowaczewski! That's a terrific performance.


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## Kiki

My latest fancy. A gritty, revolutionary Eroica from Thomas Adès the conductor, with an attitude. (Oh the "fill-ups" are also first class.)


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## BlackAdderLXX

This thread has me in a rabbit hole in the worst (best) way. I'm currently going through many of the recordings listed in this thread and am having a fantastic time doing so. Classical in the time of Corona...


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## Knorf

BlackAdderLXX said:


> This thread has me in a rabbit hole in the worst (best) way. I'm currently going through many of the recordings listed in this thread and am having a fantastic time doing so. Classical in the time of Corona...


I've done that before, and more than once. Maybe most of us here have.

Have fun!


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## Brahmsianhorn

My reference versions:

Furtwängler (1944) (Tahra, Orfeo, Music & Arts, Preiser, Andromeda)
Furtwängler (12/8/1952) (Tahra, Music & Arts, Andromeda)
Klemperer (1957) (Testament)
Klemperer (1959) (EMI)
Toscanini (1939) (RCA, Music & Arts, Naxos)
Barbirolli (Warner, Dutton)
Karajan (1984) (DG)
Kleiber (1950) (Decca)


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## Knorf

One from the Karajan digital Beethoven cycle, huh? Wow. I'd dismissed those from further attention. Maybe I should reconsider!


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## DavidA

Knorf said:


> One from the Karajan digital Beethoven cycle, huh? Wow. I'd dismissed those from further attention. Maybe I should reconsider!


It is superb but get it in the remastered Karajan Gold edition.


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## DavidA

Knorf said:


> The Bernstein/NYPO Eroica I always thought was the best from that cycle, and I've kept it. It's Bernstein at his best without going overboard.
> 
> Not saying it's my favorite, but I'm not sure I have one! I enjoy the Savall recording mentioned up thread, as well as Abbado/Berlin, Haitink/LSO, Karajan '62. Oh, and yes, Skrowaczewski! That's a terrific performance.


Funny when Bernstein cam3 our th3 critics claimed it was too fast! í ½í¸�


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## Brahmsianhorn

Knorf said:


> One from the Karajan digital Beethoven cycle, huh? Wow. I'd dismissed those from further attention. Maybe I should reconsider!


If I were to concoct a perfect Frankenstein Karajan cycle, it would be:

1 & 2 - '62
4 & 8 - '62
3 - '84
5 & 7 - '62
6 - '77
9 - '77


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## BlackAdderLXX

Somebody upthread (like a couple of years ago IIRC) mentioned binging on Eroica for like a week and a half and it has inspired me. For the past three days I've been listening to B3 over and over but different recordings. I don't really have a good recording of it and plan to change that. I've also learned a lot about what's happening in classical music from reading threads like this. So thanks everyone for the great read.


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## gvn

Brahmsianhorn said:


> My reference versions:
> 
> Furtwängler (1944) (Tahra, Orfeo, Music & Arts, Preiser, Andromeda)
> Furtwängler (12/8/1952) (Tahra, Music & Arts, Andromeda)
> Klemperer (1957) (Testament)
> Klemperer (1959) (EMI)
> Toscanini (1939) (RCA, Music & Arts, Naxos)
> Barbirolli (Warner, Dutton)
> Karajan (1984) (DG)
> Kleiber (1950) (Decca)


This is uncannily close to a list of the Eroicas that tend to come down from my own shelves most often for playing. In this symphony, I too tend to reach for Karajan 1984 rather than 1962 or 1977, and Toscanini 1939 rather than 1953 or 1949. (I also greatly enjoy Bruno Walter's NYPO and Columbia SO recordings--which are very different from each other!)

Is it worth adding that the very best transfer to date of Furtwängler 12/8/1952 is embedded in a 12-CD box, Audite 21.403? It's decisively superior to the Tahra and Music & Arts transfers, both of which I have, and I'm sure it's even more superior to the Andromeda, because Andromeda's transfers are never more than serviceable. The sound quality available nowadays in the best 1952-1954 Furtwängler recordings is really quite impressive. When I think of the transfers we used to tolerate 30 years ago!!!


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