# Wagner and Berlioz approach to composition versus other great composers



## ScipioAfricanus (Jan 7, 2010)

Other composers approached music composition first from mastery of an instrument, then composing for these small instruments then moving towards the orchestra. This was true of Mozart, Beethoven, Schumann, Schubert, Brahms etc. But Berlioz and Wagner never mastered an instrument and they approached composition from an orchestral perspective. Wagner for example came to composing music from the theater. His whole goal in music was merely to support his dramas, then to fusing music with drama into creating his total art work. But make no mistake, Wagner saw in music drama. Berlioz on the other hand learnt harmony and composition from text books and only later on after his compositional skills were at its height he learnt the guitar and flute.

Now is this the reason why their music sounds different, and that they were willing to push harmonic boundaries?


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## jalex (Aug 21, 2011)

*For the record, Berlioz began learning the flute before he started studying composition and the guitar soon afterwards. He became proficient at these instruments very quickly but did not reach full compositional maturity until quite a bit later; this is why he 'destroyed' (which as Tovey says often means 'diligently preserved' in Berlioz's vocabulary) many of his early scores.

As for your question, Berlioz himself wrote a little this matter:



> I have often regretted not being able to play the piano; this skill could be of great use to me in many circumstances. But when I think of the frightening number of trivia that are produced with such ease day-in day-out - disgraceful compositions that would be beyond the reach of their authors if they had to rely on pen and paper and were deprived of their musical kaleidoscope - I have to thank my lucky stars for having been obliged to learn to compose in silence and with complete freedom. This has preserved me from the tyranny of fingering patterns, which are so damaging for creative composition, and from the seduction of commonplaces to which composers are exposed most of the time. Admittedly the countless devotees of such pieces express in my case the opposite regret; but this leaves me unmoved.


I think the biggest effect it had was on his orchestration; he must have dreamed up instrumental colours _along with_ the raw musical material (or sometimes, as has been alleged,_ before_ the raw material) something which had not really been standard compositional practice before. I can't see why it should have affected his harmonic writing; anyway Berlioz was for the most part not a progressive harmonist. The only references to his harmony I see with any frequency is the assertion that it is sometimes awkward-sounding.


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

Mahler was an excellent (read: concert) pianist before taking up composition.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Wagner wasn't entirely 'unmusical'. He had been learning the piano from age 7, and when he wrote his first play at 13 he received music lessons so he could write incidental music. He began harmony lessons at 15. 

So there is an obvious difference between Wagner and Berlioz in that Wagner did play the piano and also composed at the piano - which is something Berlioz didnt as evidenced in jalex's post.


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## ScipioAfricanus (Jan 7, 2010)

emiellucifuge said:


> Wagner wasn't entirely 'unmusical'. He had been learning the piano from age 7, and when he wrote his first play at 13 he received music lessons so he could write incidental music. He began harmony lessons at 15.
> 
> So there is an obvious difference between Wagner and Berlioz in that Wagner did play the piano and also composed at the piano - which is something Berlioz didnt as evidenced in jalex's post.


Wagner did play the piano but he did not master it. His musical approach to composition wasn't instrument based but orchestral based.


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## amadeus (Dec 14, 2010)

I'm curious. If some composers did not use an instrument to compose, then how did they compose? Could they just hear the music in their minds, before putting it down on paper?


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

amadeus said:


> I'm curious. If some composers did not use an instrument to compose, then how did they compose? Could they just hear the music in their minds, before putting it down on paper?


Well you always hear the music in your head if you compose, some people like to play their ideas on piano first but most composers learn just to write down their musical thought without needing an instrument. This is not as magic as it seems, learning how to write down melody is quite easy and harmony takes a bit more work but you can learn it in 2 years if you study an hour a day or so.


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## amadeus (Dec 14, 2010)

Piwikiwi said:


> Well you always hear the music in your head if you compose, some people like to play their ideas on piano first but most composers learn just to write down their musical thought without needing an instrument. This is not as magic as it seems, learning how to write down melody is quite easy and harmony takes a bit more work but you can learn it in 2 years if you study an hour a day or so.


Thank you for your reply, Piwiki! So, I guess this just needs good aural and transcription skills.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

Didn't Massenet used to compose by simply writting?


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