# Extremely delicate, subtle beauty and sweetness (edited)



## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

There are slight differences between beauties in music, I think. All that is graceful or exquisite is beautiful but not everything beautiful is graceful and exquisite. Not every composer is able to achieve gracefulness, exquisiteness or subtle beauty.

Here are a few pieces of _exquisite grace and subtle beauty _that first came to my mind! Any thoughts on the matter? Please list some graceful musical moments!


Mozart 40th Symphony, movement 2

Beethoven, Piano Sonata no. 30, 1st Movement

Schubert String Quintet, movement 2

Brahms, Piano Quartet no. 3, movement 3

Sibelius 6th Symphony, movement 1


*Edit: Just a clarification of what we are aiming at*

In Finnish:
_Äärimmäisen herkkä, hienovireinen kauneus ja sulokkuus_

In English (by Google):
_Extremely delicate, subtle beauty and sweetness_


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

I just realized that all the examples in OP have strong relation to a major key, even the Sibelius, which is modal music, not pure D minor (strong C major present as well, I think).

Here is one graceful piece of music in a minor key that comes to mind:

Chopin: Ballade in G Minor


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Chopin: Piano Etude op. 25 no. 1 (Harp)
Mozart: Piano Concerto no. 39 in E-flat major, Finale
Schumann: Piano Concerto, 2nd movement
Raff: Suite for Piano and Orchestra, Gavotte and Musette
Faure: Violin Sonata no. 1 in A major, 1st movement
Ravel: Le Tombeau de Couperin, Minuet
Arensky: Suite for Two Pianos, Waltz
Glazunov: Spring (symphonic picture)


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Roger Knox said:


> Chopin: Piano Etude op. 25 no. 1 (Harp)
> Mozart: Piano Concerto no. 39 in E-flat major, Finale
> Schumann: Piano Concerto, 2nd movement
> Raff: Suite for Piano and Orchestra, Gavotte and Musette
> ...


You mean Mozart Symphony no. 39 in Eb or some other piano concerto?


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## Highwayman (Jul 16, 2018)

Bach - Schafe können sicher weiden from BWV 208
Beethoven - 2nd movement from Piano Sonata no. 27, op. 90
Brahms - 1st movement from Piano Quartet no. 2, op. 26
Dvořák - 3rd movement from String Quartet no. 14, op. 105
Schumann - Romance no. 2 from 3 Romanzen, op. 28

These ones popped up first but tbh I feel I can come up with at least 20 just by Brahms.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)




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## kaluza (9 mo ago)

Waehnen said:


> There is a slight difference between gracefulness and beauty in music, I think. All that is graceful is beautiful but not everything beautiful is graceful. Not every composer is able to achieve gracefulness.
> 
> Defining gracefulness is not easy for me. Is all graceful music elegantly beautiful? I think so.


Um. Can gracefulness be empty as well? That is, charming and "easy listening" but with no emotional content?

For me, the second movement of Tippett's second symphony has both grace and beauty.
The last movement of Stravinsky's Sympony in C starts with challenge and end in grace - and is all beauty!


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

kaluza said:


> Um. Can gracefulness be empty as well? That is, charming and "easy listening" but with no emotional content?


Graceful is never empty!


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## kaluza (9 mo ago)

Waehnen said:


> Graceful is never empty!


You are right that it's difficult to define.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

I agree that it's hard to define 'graceful', and even harder to explain why my first thoughts turned to Dvorak's Slavonic Dances. An integration of balance and fluidity of movement, perhaps?


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

There is often a suggestion---very often in many cases--of dance in music heard as graceful. The scherzo of Dvorak's 7th symphony springs to mind. An example of gracefulness going rogue is Ravel's _La Valse_, where grace mutates into mania.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Waehnen said:


> You mean Mozart Symphony no. 39 in Eb or some other piano concerto?


Yes it's Symphony No. 39 Finale, thanks.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Strange Magic said:


> There is often a suggestion---very often in many cases--of dance in music heard as graceful. The scherzo of Dvorak's 7th symphony springs to mind. An example of gracefulness going rogue is Ravel's _La Valse_, where grace mutates into mania.


English is not my first language so I will not be trying to tell English speaking people the meaning of the words.

Nevertheless I can imagine myself describing dancing as graceful. But when it comes to music I would save the word for describing something that is eloquently beautiful and delicate. Am I using the word wrongly here?


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Waehnen said:


> English is not my first language so I will not be trying to tell English speaking people the meaning of the words.
> 
> Nevertheless I can imagine myself describing dancing as graceful. But when it comes to music I would save the word for describing something that is eloquently beautiful and delicate. Am I using the word wrongly here?


As you prefer, but graceful does have strong ties to dance (and many other things) in common parlance; someone once remarked that the actor/dancer Danny Kaye was the most graceful person in motion he ever met. Though dance itself can be intentionally far from graceful. It would be best to explicitly rule out works strongly suggestive of dance from consideration, if that is your intention. Perhaps you mean quietly elegant.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Strange Magic said:


> As you prefer, but graceful does have strong ties to dance (and many other things) in common parlance; someone once remarked that the actor/dancer Danny Kaye was the most graceful person in motion he ever met. Though dance itself can be intentionally far from graceful. It would be best to explicitly rule out works strongly suggestive of dance from consideration, if that is your intention. Perhaps you mean quietly elegant.


Would you describe fast Brahms’ Hungarian Dances or energetic Chopin Mazurkas as graceful? Just interested in the limits of the word.

Edit: I checked the dictionary and the word graceful really has more meanings than I has thought. Even meanings like ”smoothly moving”.

The Finnish word in my mind translates to sweet, cute, lovely. But that sounds trash. And we are looking for the oppisite of trash.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

The right word is exquisite!


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## kaluza (9 mo ago)

How about Stravinsky's "_*Apollon musagète"? A beautiful and graceful ballet.*_


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Sorry all, I had to add the word exquisite to the OP! This was a hard lesson in English.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Pat Fairlea said:


> I agree that it's hard to define 'graceful', and even harder to explain why my first thoughts turned to Dvorak's Slavonic Dances. An integration of balance and fluidity of movement, perhaps?


Gracefulness in music is easy to define. it's just


kaluza said:


> You are right that it's difficult to define.


I don't think graceful as applied to music is at all difficult to define. It's fluid and assured economy of motion.


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## kaluza (9 mo ago)

Well here's a further question. Is the implication that music "must" be graceful / exquisite / beautiful? Can we also have challenging / robust / painful... ?


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

kaluza said:


> Well here's a further question. Is the implication that music "must" be graceful / exquisite / beautiful? Can we also have challenging / robust / painful... ?


It would be boring if all music was graceful and exquisite and beautiful. We also must have, challenging, robust and painful! Amongst many other things.

There is no implications on what music SHOULD be. I just wanted to pinpoint this one very delicate form of beauty that is both graceful and exquisite.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Resplghi's A_ncient Airs and Dances_ fills the bill methinks, though there's that dance association again. Also Ravel's _Mother Goose_ has many moments of exquisite grace. Gracefulness, exquisiteness, elegance--so many meanings and associations.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

I'm thinking of these two graceful piano pieces because I was just playing them a moment ago:

Debussy, Arabesque No.1
Prokofiev, Visions fugitives #7 ("Harp")

Both have a steady, fluid sense of flow and gradual long arcs of harmonic progression with plummy, rich chords throughout.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Strange Magic said:


> Resplghi's A_ncient Airs and Dances_ fills the bill methinks, though there's that dance association again. Also Ravel's _Mother Goose_ has many moments of exquisite grace. Gracefulness, exquisiteness, elegance--so many meanings and associations.


Exquisite grace — that’s the definition of what we’re after here! Thank you.


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## clachat (11 mo ago)

I take graceful to mean effortless and exquisite signifies refined. So together, effortlessly refined. 

Mozart and Chopin spring to mind.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Strange Magic said:


> There is often a suggestion---very often in many cases--of dance in music heard as graceful. The scherzo of Dvorak's 7th symphony springs to mind. An example of gracefulness going rogue is Ravel's _La Valse_, where grace mutates into mania.


Oh yes, that's a really good example of 'graceful' becoming 'stark raving mad'!


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

Maybe it's because I've been recently watching ballet but it's hard to ignore the association of such graceful dancing and the grace of the music that accompanies it so well, so works like Prokofiev's Romeo & Juliet and Tchaikovsky's Swan Lake, Sleeping Beauty, The Nutcracker, etc.


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

The search for grace and elegance was typical of the French Baroque. All composers, playwrights and court and church musicians contributed to France’s drive for refinement. Lutenists, harpsichordists, viola players, music directors and the forerunners of ballet de cour and opera shared a determination to depict grace and refinement and avoid what they deemed to be excessive turbulence and contrast.

There are countless examples to choose from: François Couperin's and Jean Henry d'Anglebert's harpsichord suites, the airs de cour of Lambert and Antoine Boësset, the dances of Lully, Rameau's delightful chamber cantatas, the viol music of Marin Marais and Monsieur de Sainte-Colombe, the lute suites of Ennemond and Denis Gaultier as well as Dufault and de Visée.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Strange Magic said:


> There is often a suggestion---very often in many cases--of dance in music heard as graceful. The scherzo of Dvorak's 7th symphony springs to mind. An example of gracefulness going rogue is Ravel's _La Valse_, where grace mutates into mania.


Good examples. Francis Potts who wrote some fine disc notes for Chandos Records mentions a "balletic" tendency in many of Glazunov's instrumental works. That's what gives his symphonies a graceful feel that differs from those of other Russian composers (maybe except for Tchaikovsky and Arensky). As for Ravel the presence of both gracefulness and wild darkness in _La Valse _(an unsubtle dig at Austria just after the First World War) shows his wide emotional range as a composer. Stravinsky's _bon mot_ about Ravel being a "Swiss watchmaker" was unfair. In fact Stravinsky himself was obsessively perfectionist and some of his works such as the Sonata for Piano have a mechanical quality.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Just a clarifying question because I initially messed up with English: do you agree that the works listed on the OP contain _exquisite grace_? Do you recognize such a thing exists?

I am still trying to pinpoint the most delicate and eloquent and fine beauty in music.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

*Graceful and exquisite music?*

I passed by this post twice, simply because "graceful" and "exquisite" seem too vague as terms to describe music. Well, at least "graceful" seems rather vague.

I suppose one could suggest that a well-composed piece of music (from a Johann Strauss Waltz to Bartok's _Miraculous Mandarin_) is exquisite. Which leaves little to be debated. All well-made art proves exquisite. And what "well-made art" is remains purely a subjective judgment. So we get nowhere, really, following this line of argument.

I agree with those who suggest a dancer may be graceful, but that music is not necessarily graceful. I can imagine a graceful dancer performing to music which many might not agree is graceful at all. I suspect an argument could be made on this point concerning Stravinsky's ballet _Rite of Spring_; most of the music does not strike me as anywhere near "graceful" (in one sense of the term) but when the dancers take the stage there is grace present in the most savagely rhythmic passages. Too, I suppose a well-trained, skilled and capable dancer can perform difficult angular movements that might not be described as graceful but are indeed just that as performed movements which took much practice and skill to render. But I don't like using the word "graceful" for music so much.

If a dancer can be graceful, cannot others engaged in their professions? A graceful surgeon, a graceful traffic cop, a graceful football player, a graceful receptionist, a graceful musician, a graceful composer.... This way of thinking, though seemingly accurate to me, gets me nowhere either. Which is likely why I passed up responding to this post a couple of times in the first place.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

SONNET CLV said:


> *Graceful and exquisite music?*
> 
> I passed by this post twice, simply because "graceful" and "exquisite" seem too vague as terms to describe music. Well, at least "graceful" seems rather vague.
> 
> ...


How about _exquisite grace?_

That is the most definite expression I am able to use at the moment of this one aspect of music.


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## kaluza (9 mo ago)

clachat said:


> I take graceful to mean effortless and exquisite signifies refined. So together, effortlessly refined.
> 
> Mozart and Chopin spring to mind.


This highlights another aspect - personal taste.
For me, Chopin doesn't do "effortlessly refined". Instead I find his name is shorthand for "clunky", irritating", "under the skin". (This does NOT of course, invalidadte others' feelings about his music!)


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Waehnen said:


> Just a clarifying question because I initially messed up with English: do you agree that the works listed on the OP contain _exquisite grace_? Do you recognize such a thing exists?
> 
> I am still trying to pinpoint the most delicate and eloquent and fine beauty in music.


OK I see that I had the wrong idea now that I check your OP and your expression "exquisite grace." To me someone would say "exquisite grace" about pieces that are rather rare and special.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Roger Knox said:


> OK I see that I had the wrong idea now that I check your OP and your expression "exquisite grace." To me someone would say "exquisite grace" about pieces that are rather rare and special.


It was totally me messing up with English, not you. Sorry!

But yes, we are searching for rare and special pieces of exquisite grace in this thread (amongs other things). The conversation is interesting anyway!


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Mozart’s clarinet concerto: adagio






Brahms’ first string quintet: opening movement


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Botschaft said:


> Mozart’s clarinet concerto: adagio
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree with both!


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

Individual movements are not what I think of when contemplating exquisite grace.
"Exquisite" indicates, to me, an intricately detailed (and seemingly effortless) craftsmanship.
"Grace" is rather like the act of moving gingerly, as if treading on eggs not to crack the eggshells.

Since music is organized sound, a composer who organizes his/her soundscapes to impart upon listeners a sense of meditation, internal reflection or hypnosis can, to my mind, yield exquisite grace.
Composers as disparate as André Caplet, Morton Feldman & Tōru Takemitsu can nonetheless be grouped by their aesthetic inclinations (which shy away from writing allegros, rondos, scherzos, etc.)
Their lifelong _oeuvres_ can be regarded as exhibiting exquisite grace.

When I'm in the mood to listen to something exquisitely graceful, I can select any number of works by Takemitsu or Feldman (... or Horațiu Rădulescu ... or ... _fill-in-the-blank_). I'm not going play a romantic symphony only just to hear its adagio or lento.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Waehnen said:


> How about _exquisite grace?_
> 
> That is the most definite expression I am able to use at the moment of this one aspect of music.


I may have to amend my contention that "graceful" is a vague term for musical purposes. Tchaikovsky thought enough of "gracefulness" to provide the following direction for the second movement of his great Sixth Symphony: _Allegro con grazia_. I hold tremendous respect for Tchaikovsky. So, if it's good enough for him ....


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Prodromides said:


> Individual movements are not what I think of when contemplating exquisite grace.
> "Exquisite" indicates, to me, an intricately detailed (and seemingly effortless) craftsmanship.
> "Grace" is rather like the act of moving gingerly, as if treading on eggs not to crack the eggshells.
> 
> ...


Wonderful input. Thank you!

Some more places of exquisite grace that come to mind:

Mozart: String Quintet no. 4 in G minor, Movement 3
Beethoven, Piano Sonata 28 in A, 1st Movement
Schubert, String Quartet 14, movement II
Brahms: Violin Sonata no. 1, 1st Movement
Sibelius 7th Symphony, both Adagio sections

Oh, it seems it’s the same combination of composers as in the OP!


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

SONNET CLV said:


> I may have to amend my contention that "graceful" is a vague term for musical purposes. Tchaikovsky thought enough of "gracefulness" to provide the following direction for the second movement of his great Sixth Symphony: _Allegro con grazia_. I hold tremendous respect for Tchaikovsky. So, if it's good enough for him ....


The term graceful is admittedly slightly pointing to a direction I thought it would not. In this process I realized there is not a single word to describe what I am talking about here even in my first language.

So let’s use the google translate:

In Finnish:
_Äärimmäisen herkkä, hienovireinen kauneus ja sulokkuus_

In English (by Google):
_Extremely delicate, subtle beauty and sweetness_

So should I remove the term grace completely, or is _exquisite grace_ close enough?


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

SONNET CLV said:


> I may have to amend my contention that "graceful" is a vague term for musical purposes. Tchaikovsky thought enough of "gracefulness" to provide the following direction for the second movement of his great Sixth Symphony: _Allegro con grazia_.


"grazioso" is also a common modifier in music. And such movement, like the Tchaikovsky fit pretty well with my understanding of "graceful" (exquisite sounds to me like advertising expensive candy or cosmetics...). So I tend to associate this with a rather narrow range/type of music and probably only Mozart K 550,ii might fall under it from the suggestions by the OP (and even that one would be a borderline case with e.g. the clarinet concerto or the finale of the last piano concert more typical), although gracefulness seems a feature of Mozart's general style so one has to go for the "heavy" pieces, like that g minor symphony to have less of it. With a composer like Boccherini there might be sometimes an excess of grazioso and not much besides...

Some examples for my understanding of the term

Bach: French suites #5 and #6, violin partita E major
Beethoven: "Spring sonata", esp. first and last movements, finale of violin concerto, op.31/3,iii, op.130,iii
Schubert: 5th symphony, finale of piano sonata D 850, quartet D 804, mvmts 3+4
Mendelssohn: symphony #4,iii; Mendelssohn and Chopin are also composers with many pieces I'd call "graceful"
Brahms: Symphony #2,iii
Mahler: Symphony #2,ii, #3,ii
Ravel: Ma mère l'oye
Stravinsky: Pulcinella suite, Dumbarton oaks concerto
Prokofiev: 1st violin concerto


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Kreisler jr said:


> "grazioso" is also a common modifier in music. And such movement, like the Tchaikovsky fit pretty well with my understanding of "graceful" (exquisite sounds to me like advertising expensive candy or cosmetics...). So I tend to associate this with a rather narrow range/type of music and probably only Mozart K 550,ii might fall under it from the suggestions by the OP (and even that one would be a borderline case with e.g. the clarinet concerto or the finale of the last piano concert more typical), although gracefulness seems a feature of Mozart's general style so one has to go for the "heavy" pieces, like that g minor symphony to have less of it. With a composer like Boccherini there might be sometimes an excess of grazioso and not much besides...
> 
> Some examples for my understanding of the term
> 
> ...


Should I change the title of the thread into this?

_Extremely delicate, subtle beauty and sweetness_


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

No, leave it. It's going to be vague in any case. I think "graceful" is a bit different from "extremely delicate" etc. but this hardly matters.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Kreisler jr said:


> No, leave it. It's going to be vague in any case. I think "graceful" is a bit different from "extremely delicate" etc. but this hardly matters.


Sorry, but the dance-like gracefulness took over the thread! I had to react!


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

'Subtle beauty' is pretty hard to pin down imv but for delicate grace, how about Ravel's 'Pavane Pour Une Enfante Defunte'. You've certainly got to be delicate in the right and left hand when playing the piano version. Perhaps the slow movements from Messiaen's 'Quatuor pour la Fin Du Temps' might qualify to some ears as subtle beauty but to me, they are more like an intense beauty. The opening movement of Grieg's 'Holberg Suite' has an easy grace and beauty to my ears, despite the gallop.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

mikeh375 said:


> 'Subtle beauty' is pretty hard to pin down imv but for delicate grace, how about Ravel's 'Pavane Pour Une Enfante Defunte'. You've certainly got to be delicate in the right and left hand when playing the piano version. Perhaps the slow movements from Messiaen's 'Quatuor pour la Fin Du Temps' might qualify to some ears as subtle beauty but to me, they are more like an intense beauty. The opening movement of Grieg's 'Holberg Suite' has an easy grace and beauty to my ears, despite the gallop.


I like the Ravel as a candidate, but there's that Pavane=Dance link again. Hard to avoid it. _Let's Dance: _David Bowie.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Some more examples that come to mind:

Bach: Das Wohltemperierte Klavier Book I, Prelude in G minor

Beethoven, String Quartet 15 in A minor, slow movement

Schubert: Unfinished Symphony, slow movement, in certain passages with the swinging woodwinds in pianissimo

Chopin: Nocturno in C# minor, Opus posthumous

Brahms: Piano Sonata in F minor, slow movement

Stravinsky: Symphony of Psalms, the repetitive Finale chorale with very fine chordal structures and textures in pianissimo

Ligeti: Continuum. I feel it is really really subtle and fine beauty, especially with a player piano. Not so much with cembalo.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

More pieces with moments of exquisite grace and subtle beauty that come to mind:


Beethoven: Hammerklavier Sonata, movement III
Brahms: Intermezzo no. 1, Op. 117
Debussy: Sonata for Flute, Viola and Harp, 1st Movement
Ravel: Gaspard de la Nuit, Movement I, Ondine
Sibelius: Symphony no. 4, Movements I & III
Tchaikovsky: Dumka, piano piece, Op. 59
Wagner: Tristan und Isolde Overture


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Mahler 8th


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

hammeredklavier said:


> Mahler 8th


Referring to the beginning of the 2nd (huge) Movement? Or is this a joke?


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Waehnen said:


> More pieces of exquisite grace and subtle beauty that come to mind:
> 
> 
> Beethoven: Hammerklavier Sonata, movement III
> ...


With ever more examples I admittedly understand less and less what you were heading for with the several new wordings. It seems like a list of "movements I particularly like"  
E.g. I'd understand the "extreme delicacy, subtleness" etc. for the Debussy and Brahms from this list. But the Sibelius? rather dark and powerful? The Beethoven and Wagner? rather highly passionate or whatever, I don't think there is anything very delicate or sweet about the Sibelius, Wagner or Beethoven items (which doesn't mean I don't agree that they are great pieces, I'd personally probably prefer to the Debussy or other "delicate" music).


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Kreisler jr said:


> With ever more examples I admittedly understand less and less what you were heading for with the several new wordings. It seems like a list of "movements I particularly like"
> E.g. I'd understand the "extreme delicacy, subtleness" etc. for the Debussy and Brahms from this list. But the Sibelius? rather dark and powerful? The Beethoven and Wagner? rather highly passionate or whatever, I don't think there is anything very delicate or sweet about the Sibelius, Wagner or Beethoven items (which doesn't mean I don't agree that they are great pieces, I'd personally probably prefer to the Debussy or other "delicate" music).


I actually do have a point here. It is still a problem with language, I think. This thing is hard to define but it is there. A key factor is the finesse and strong atmosphere of the subtle constellation in certain moments. These moments are "pregnant with meaning".

For all the pieces I have listed here I could post a youtube-link with exact moments for the exquisite and delicate and subtle moments of beauty. Would you like to list the ones you would like me to clarify with youtube links?


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Moretti, Bernaud and Causse in this extraordinary piece by Debussy. The whole album is the exemplar for subtlety and beauty.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Here is some more! Musical pieces with some of the finest imaginable exquisite moments.


Beethoven: Pastoral Piano Sonata, Movement I

Mahler: Symphony no. 6, Movement II (Andante) — I have to admit it eventually; it is eloquent, subtle and the musical high points are earned and pregnant with meaning

Wagner: Parcifal Overture


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