# Is it money or intention



## Hazel (Oct 23, 2010)

http://www.stltoday.com/entertainme...cle_f0a1461c-c6de-11e1-a56b-0019bb30f31a.html

Most of you do not even know this university, I am sure, but is it any different anywhere? Art and music are always the first to go. It happened in elementary schools years ago and just climbs higher on the education ladder. The arts are not considered important.

Much can be said about it but, if it is money, where are they getting the money to build those new buildings? Logic 101?


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## powerbooks (Jun 30, 2012)

Well, you can build an orchestra if you like, but if there is no audience, what is it good for?


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

It can't be money. Higher ed is making a killing. If you can't be a bank cosy with the government, be a casino. But if you can't be a casino, or an energy company, or a defense contractor, be a university. Ten thousand students paying seventy thousand a year, and you'll be able to afford a politician or two, after the orchestra's all paid for.


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## Hazel (Oct 23, 2010)

powerbooks said:


> Well, you can build an orchestra if you like, but if there is no audience, what is it good for?


How about the experience of playing in a group? Isn't that a learning experience? If the student applies to a large symphony orchestra but has had no group experience, how desparate for a player would the large orchestra have to be to hire him?

I do not know how often they played publicly but I do know they did and they public enjoyed them.


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## Lunasong (Mar 15, 2011)

I am sure that Chess attacts large audiences 
_(Larson) believes the decision to be primarily financial and suspects that it's related to the university's much-heralded new chess program._

I fail to see how eliminating the orchestra can be part of a presentation titled "Expansion of instrumental studies in music at Webster University." 

As for what it is good for, that's answered in the article.
_"A lot of the instrumental-studies majors at Webster are training to be orchestra musicians," McElvain said. "They're training to take auditions. To perform with a major symphony orchestra, one naturally must have experience in playing in a symphony orchestra."
That loss of experience, he said, will put Webster's students at a disadvantage - and eliminates one more opportunity for residents to hear well-played classical music inexpensively.
_


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## Hazel (Oct 23, 2010)

science said:


> It can't be money. Higher ed is making a killing. If you can't be a bank cosy with the government, be a casino. But if you can't be a casino, or an energy company, or a defense contractor, be a university. Ten thousand students paying seventy thousand a year, and you'll be able to afford a politician or two, after the orchestra's all paid for.


When I remember what our tuition was back in the dark ages, I am boggled at today's charges.
I do not know how today's students can afford to walk in the front door and that first $9,000 / $10,000 is only the beginning - the right to enter that front door.

I cannot believe the tuitions being charged today are necessary but what do I know? I only know that art, music, creative writing, theatre, anything that allows self-expression is an asset for the human mind and soul - even for the body, I think. Isn't the ability to be creative a talent necessary in science?

We want our young people to stay in their home towns and contribute to the town's welfare as adults. Then we force them away by removing exactly what they want to keep them here.

Sorry. I'm getting preachy. It just annoys me. Hazel


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

One of my favorite things a former student said to me once:

"My academic teachers taught me how to make a living. My arts teachers taught me why my life was worth living."


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## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

I was saddened by the article you posted. I sometimes think 'our' numbers (people who listen and/or play classical music) are shrinking at a faster rate than the numbers of new, and younger fans are growing. Go on Facebook and check out the 'musical interests' in anyone's profile - it's very often appalling - not that they listen only to the most shallow of pop, but that they have no variety. I grew up with friends who collected classical, jazz, RnB, and The Beatles (for example). I don't see that much anymore. America is so huge that experiencing live classical music is impossible for most - on the other hand, countries in Europe are relatively so small that almost everyone grows up with the tradition that they birthed along with Krautrock.

My opinion is that money is _always_ the problem - if the orchestra is always in the red, not generating enough ticket sales or credit hours then the Board of Trustees, Administrators, and Bean Counters move it to the 'block' for chopping. I fear the article is prophetic, indeed most universities in the USA have had to rein in the number of hours required for a Bachelor's degree and the cuts are in both professional degree programs and also the General Education courses. So, no one 'gets' to go to university for a true _education_, but for training to get a job, and so the nuances and riches of a Liberal Education are lost - and I have to say that I understand this as the job market has become so terribly maimed that young people fear for their futures.

It is a trite saying, but heartfelt: I feel your pain.


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## Dakota (Jun 30, 2012)

Oh, that really IS a shame! And if it is a student/community orchestra where is the cost? They would probably pay a conductor and perhaps for programs and advertising but the players would (I assume) be volunteers and most colleges don't fill their auditorium spaces 24/7, so............. I can't see who benefits from cutting a program like that.


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## Jaws (Jun 4, 2011)

Hazel said:


> http://www.stltoday.com/entertainme...cle_f0a1461c-c6de-11e1-a56b-0019bb30f31a.html
> 
> Most of you do not even know this university, I am sure, but is it any different anywhere? Art and music are always the first to go. It happened in elementary schools years ago and just climbs higher on the education ladder. The arts are not considered important.
> 
> Much can be said about it but, if it is money, where are they getting the money to build those new buildings? Logic 101?


There is a way round this. If someone starts a community orchestra locally, there already appear to be a lot of community volunteers anyway and make places available for the students who want to play in an orchestra. 
There is a music department of a university near where I live that never has enough of the students playing the right instruments to form an orchestra, so the students join an orchestra that is made up of local amateurs that practises at the college, and they also join other local amateur orchestras. This means that anyone who wants to play in a group can.


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## Lunasong (Mar 15, 2011)

Hazel said:


> Art and music are always the first to go...The arts are not considered important.


South Carolina's governor just signed a line item veto that completely eliminates that state's Arts Commission. This is a repeat of her action last year, which was reversed by the legislature. Because this veto takes place AFTER the fiscal year had already started July 1, (and for reasons I don't entirely understand) it seems less likely the veto will be overturned this time.

One comment states:
_Our governor likes to brag about all the jobs she's helped create, but she is very particular about what kinds of jobs she finds worthy. The arts are jobs! Please, Governor Haley, stop trying to take away arts jobs!_


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## Tero (Jun 2, 2012)

Webster happens to be in a city with other orchestras. They even have to compete with them, they are not the only band in town. That said, local musicians do not have the chance to get credit for performances unless they are at a bigger university.

I used to go hear student recitals for free in college days. It would be a piano and a bassoon etc.


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## Jaws (Jun 4, 2011)

I am just wondering how many students are actually studying orchestral instruments? It would hardly seem worth running an orchestra if the vast majority of the players were not actually studying at the university?


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## powerbooks (Jun 30, 2012)

Jaws said:


> I am just wondering how many students are actually studying orchestral instruments? It would hardly seem worth running an orchestra if the vast majority of the players were not actually studying at the university?


While it may sounds sad, I kind of agree with Jaws here. Sometimes orchestra playing is an expensive hobby, especially if they (1) have no audience, (2) have competition in town already, (3) are not as good, (4) eat too much budget of a small school.

Unless they can find some donors to support themselves, these kind of closures happen all the time, including semi-professional orchestra for some bigger cities.


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## Jaws (Jun 4, 2011)

Is it open to all students including those that are not studying music? Some of the best players in UK university orchestras are not music students. In one case I heard of, the music students playing a certain instrument never got into their university orchestra because there were some better players who were studying a science course.


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