# BARITONE TOURNAMENT (Bonus Matchup): Lucic vs Salsi vs Alvarez



## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Zeljko Lucic, Serbia, 1968-






Luca Salsi, Italy, 1975-






Carlos Alvarez, Spain, 1966-






'Nemico della patria' from Umberto Giordano's _Andrea Chenier_.

Who's singing did you prefer and why?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Riddle: "Why is Zeljko Lucic one of our leading baritones?"

Solution: "The others are worse (but if you disagree I wouldn't dream of arguing about it)."

Gee willikers, Paw! Do I have to vote? Yes, son, you do. It's the manly thing to do.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> Riddle: "Why is Zeljko Lucic one of our leading baritones?"
> 
> Solution: "The others are worse" (but if you disagree I wouldn't dream of arguing about it).
> 
> Gee willikers, Paw! Do I have to vote? Yes, son, you do. It's the manly thing to do.


:lol::lol::lol: consider this the 'State of Modern Operatic Singing' companion thread :lol::lol:


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Bonetan said:


> :lol::lol::lol: consider this the 'State of Modern Operatic Singing' companion thread :lol::lol:


Oh dear, oh dear! I'll give it to Lucic because the others are almost unlistenable, but he's hardly a paragon.

If anyone would like an illustration of declining standards, then listen to Giuseppe Taddei singing in 1955.


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

*Herr Lucic wins easily here.* More detailed performance, better stage appearance and his voice is also a bit more clear / brilliant. What I like here (makes the competition fairer & easier for us to have a decision) is that all videos contain stage performances. Opere IS mainly on the stage and not is a studio.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Definitely Lucic. No competition.
Funnily, he tends to slightly distort vowels which makes him sound similar to Milnes (just close your eyes and listen to the first couple of phrases).
Other two gentlemen I could not make it to the end to be honest with you.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

I found this one much easier for me to choose. Salsi's voice does not appeal to me and there is passion missing in Alvarez' performance, but Lucic, for me, dots every "i" and crosses every "t" and his baritone sound appeals to me more than the other two.
If I had to rate them:
1. Lucic
2. Salsi
3. Alvarez


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Riddle: "Why is Zeljko Lucic one of our leading baritones?"
> 
> Solution: "The others are worse (but if you disagree I wouldn't dream of arguing about it)."
> 
> Gee willikers, Paw! Do I have to vote? Yes, son, you do. It's the manly thing to do.


Too bad that you (and some others I know) feel the same way. You either "get him" or you don't. You didn't.
Lucky me to have delved a bit deeper into his persona onstage and found a truly fine actor (Rance , Scarpia and Iago to name a few) who is much more subtle in his roles and isn't chewing the scenery like some others tend to do, and with an appealing baritone sound as well. 
Frankly, there is also something about him that is attractive to the eye. He isn't a handsome man but he has a cool, laid back demeanor that is captivating.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

I thought Lucic lacked a bit of vocal heft, but the other two sounded much more effortful with far too much vibrato for my liking.


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## Parsifal98 (Apr 29, 2020)

nina foresti said:


> Too bad that you (and some others I know) feel the same way. You either "get him" or you don't. You didn't.
> Lucky me to have delved a bit deeper into his persona onstage and found a truly fine actor (Rance , Scarpia and Iago to name a few) who is much more subtle in his roles and isn't chewing the scenery like some others tend to do, and with an appealing baritone sound as well.
> Frankly, there is also something about him that is attractive to the eye. He isn't a handsome man but he has a cool, laid back demeanor that is captivating.


Too bad these contests aren't really about "persona" or "subtlety" (at least in the way you see it), but more about vocal proficiency, which all three of these gentlemen lack. Even the greatest actor could not make an operatic character on stage compelling or believable without having a proper voice. Lucic is not the worst out there, but like most of his collegues, I find him uninteresting and it seems I am not the only one. Just like Tsaras, let me share with you a performance that, when compared with the three above, makes you realize the important vocal decline opera has faced over the last decades:

Gino Bechi - Nemico della patria





And one should not need to "get" a singer in order to appreciate him. His artistry should slap you in the face the moment he opens his mouth.


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## Parsifal98 (Apr 29, 2020)

And another one by Giangiacomo Guelfi, who was Titta Ruffo's student:


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

Lucic did a decent job as Rance in the recent _Fanciulla_ Live in HD. In comparison with Lucio Gallo, the previous HD Rance, he was basically Titta Ruffo. But he's not on my list of top baritones. I didn't love any of these three. Now, Bechi, that's a different story!

As long as we're posting our favorite versions...


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

vivalagentenuova said:


> Lucic did a decent job as Rance in the recent _Fanciulla_ Live in HD. In comparison with Lucio Gallo, the previous HD Rance, he was basically Titta Ruffo. But he's not on my list of top baritones. I didn't love any of these three. Now, Bechi, that's a different story!
> 
> As long as we're posting our favorite versions...


Bonelli is one of the most underappreciated singers of the past century. He had the misfortune to have a career that overlapped with Lawrence Tibbett and later Leonard Warren.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

I've always loved Bastianini in this scene:


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Here's another American baritone, Donald Dickson, who couldn't compete with Tibbett (and John Charles Thomas) at the Met, singing only a handful of performances there:


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Speaking of John Charles Thomas...


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Bonetan said:


> Who's singing did you prefer and why?


Lucic. I find his voice utterly anonymous, but he sings in tune and doesn't wobble. The same can't be said of Salsi or Alvarez.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

wkasimer said:


> Here's another American baritone, Donald Dickson, who couldn't compete with Tibbett (and John Charles Thomas) at the Met, singing only a handful of performances there:


Pardon my French, but _HOLY CRAP! __THIS IS OPERA!_ The resonance! The legato! The diction! The passion!

How many more superb singers are now virtually lost in the vaults of history - recent history at that?

The mystery deepens: why can't people sing any more?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Each and every one of the baritones mentioned by various contributors could knock into a cocked hat any of the three offered up for the origial comparison. Surely anyone with ears can hear the difference?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Each and every one of the baritones mentioned by various contributors could knock into a cocked hat any of the three offered up for the origial comparison. Surely anyone with ears can hear the difference?


I suspect most people could hear the difference, even if they'd given little thought to what makes singing better or worse. That's partly borne out by the fact that everyone who voted here chose Lucic, who's a cut above the others (not a high bar, to be sure). But I suppose we musn't underestimate the flexibility of the human brain, which tends to like whatever it's used to. It's been a long time, almost a lifetime ago for me, since audiences have been able to hear low male voices possessing the freedom and brilliance of singers such as Bechi, Bonelli and the others. Most opera lovers have probably heard recordings made fifty and more years ago and have some inkling of how they were different from what we now tend to hear, but it's conceivable that some people would prefer the heavy, forced, wobbly bellowing of voices like those of Salsi and Alvarez (and countless others) and think that that's what a "real baritone" is supposed to sound like. Or something to that effect.

I'd like to think I'm wrong.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I thought Lucic lacked a bit of vocal heft, but the other two sounded much more effortful with far too much vibrato for my liking.


I'm not so sure it was a case of too much vibrato; the problem was their vibrato made me wonder what a goat attempting to yodle would sound like.

Both Lucic and Alvarez were receded behind the orchestra in the soundscape and though it is difficult to know whether this is the fault of the recording or of their singing neither of their voices seemed to carry much heft so I doubt it can be pinned entirely on the recording. With Salsi, you could hear him clearly over the orchestra but wished you didn't. At least with Lucic expressing his love for a world that can't even hear him properly, you at least kinda wished you could hear him properly, and maybe even receive some love, so that's enough to get my vote in this level of competition.

Thank you to all the members who posted alternative renditions of this aria. I haven't listened to too much French opera and didn't know the aria.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BachIsBest said:


> Thank you to all the members who posted alternative renditions of this aria. I haven't listened to too much French opera and didn't know the aria.


The subject may have been French but the opera is firmly Italian _verismo_, by the Italian composer Umberto Giordano (1867-1948). He was born in Foggia in southern Italy and died in Milan. *Andrea Chénier* is his most famous and most often performed opera, but *Fedora* also gets the occasional outing.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Tsaraslondon said:


> The subject may have been French but the opera is firmly Italian _verismo_, by the Italian composer Umberto Giordano (1867-1948). He was born in Foggia in southern Italy and died in Milan. *Andrea Chénier* is his most famous and most often performed opera, but *Fedora* also gets the occasional outing.


Apparently, I know nothing! Actually, though, I pay embarrassingly little attention to what the singers are saying (obviously).


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

wkasimer said:


> Here's another American baritone, Donald Dickson, who couldn't compete with Tibbett (and John Charles Thomas) at the Met, singing only a handful of performances there:


This is just incredible, some of the most beautiful male-voice singing that I've heard. Why has singers' vibrato gone so overboard nowadays? It exemplifies what I used to not like about classical singing before I started listening to the older singers. I much prefer a quicker, more natural vibrato style like this; to me it sounds more like direct communication and allows the tone and diction to shine through rather than being distracted by faux-theatrical hamminess. I've even noticed, listening to the earliest records of Caruso, that he hardly used any vibrato, or it was so light and fast that I didn't pick up on it. I'm sure that topic has been discussed before, but I'd be interested to hear any theories about why it has gotten more obtrusive through the years.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> This is just incredible, some of the most beautiful male-voice singing that I've heard. Why has singers' vibrato gone so overboard nowadays? It exemplifies what I used to not like about classical singing before I started listening to the older singers. I much prefer a quicker, more natural vibrato style like this; to me it sounds more like direct communication and allows the tone and diction to shine through rather than being distracted by faux-theatrical hamminess. I've even noticed, listening to the earliest records of Caruso, that he hardly used any vibrato, or it was so light and fast that I didn't pick up on it. I'm sure that topic has been discussed before, but I'd be interested to hear any theories about why it has gotten more obtrusive through the years.


Vibrato is a natural, spontaneous secondary vibration of the vocal bands (we call them, inaccurately, cords), added to the vibration responsible for the sung pitch. It differs from the primary vibration in being more or less constant in speed of pulsation, but this can be affected by all sorts of things: excessive breath pressure, inadequate breath support leading to tension in the larynx, fatigue, or wear and stiffening of the vocal muscles. Problems in any of these areas will tend to slow the frequency of pulsation. Singers who have been singing with more pressure and tension than is needed for tone production, or who have never, or not yet, acquired the fine-tuned coordination required for free and easy tone production, will exhibit the slow, throbbing, obtrusive vibrato we hear so often, especially in their upper registers. At its worst this slow throb slows and widens into the wavering of pitch we call a wobble.

A study was done some years ago - I forget by whom - measuring the pulsations of singers' vibratos across the history of recording. It showed what many have noticed by ear: that the average speed of pulsation has slowed since the early 20th century. It's one of the clearest indicators of a decline in technique and pedagogy. We can hear the detrioration in microcosm in the careers of individual singers who start out with well-coordinated instruments but become more vibrato-ridden from wear and tear. This seems to have become a normal development among singers today, many of them still young, with notable exceptions (I think of Domingo, whose voice was still functioning well in his 70s). By contrast, it's always striking to notice that among singers recorded in their late years in the early 20th century we often hear no significant change in the vibrato even when their voices have aged in other respects.


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