# How to approach Wagner



## Napodano (Sep 18, 2017)

Dear All,

I feel intimidated by Wagner, or better how should I approach him?

My limited exposure to opera is of Italian operas through 'bel canto'. 

Any suggestion? I was thinking to start with the Flying Dutchman or one of the Ring cycle. I believe that I need to 'get it right' to build up an appreciation of Wagner and then, after a pleasing experience, expand from there. 

Get it right : listening to something musically epic and superbly recorded?
Alternatively: Is there any recording of individual areas (are they called like this in Wagner) which I could start with?


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

Wagner was also a rough composer for me. Listening to the Ring without any knowledge of what is happening, and not knowing German, can be a bit painful. I suggest that you start with Lohengrin, and then with Flying Dutchman. Lohengrin takes after many Italian Operas and the story is very easy to follow.

This is what I could find in Italian. Also, it's a Traditional Bayreuth staging.










My introduction to the Opera was the Vienna Abbado production with Domingo and Studer :clap:






There are CDs of individual arias or preludes for orchestra. The most notable are by Karajan and Klemperer. For the Isolde Liebestodt, you should go for the Jessye Norman performance with Karajan in the 80s.

Chandos also released a number of CDs with orchestral transcriptions (or synthesis) of the Wagner operas, conducted by Neeme Järvi. I don't like his conducting at all, but it could be worth a listen.

Before any Wagner opera, as I'm doing finally with the Ring, *read the synopsis and always watch a Traditional production before going for audio recordings*. You need to have a picture in your head because Wagner "barking" is very common and unpleasant if you have no context.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

For me it wasn't easy as my only reference early on in life was the magnificent Prelude and Love-death of _Tristan & Isolde_, which I loved dearly (But there were no voices -- just orchestra).
Much later on just listening to the Vorspiel from _Parsifal _ and then the very last 3 minutes of _Gotterdammmerung._ did it for me. 
From there, baby steps.
Wagnerian friends assisted by suggesting my very first entire opera should be _Lohengrin_. They were right.


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## Napodano (Sep 18, 2017)

Granate said:


> Before any Wagner opera, ... always watch a Traditional production before going for audio recordings[/B]. You need to have a picture in your head because Wagner "barking" is very common and unpleasant if you have no context.


This is a great advice which I had not thought about! Thank you Granade


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

As mentioned, it all depends on the individual, what is true for one is probably not for the next. I had a good friend who, with little other opera knowledge, got hooked on Wagner by attending a performance of _Gotterdammerung_ - so much so that he wanted to attend a complete Ring Cycle, which we did.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

I think there are a lot of different ways one could approach Wagner. For me, it was via instrumental excerpts: overtures, preludes, and orchestral transcriptions. The music dug in and did not let go. There are many, many albums like this available.

There are some albums of arias, of a sort, though they tend to be longer sections (several of these say "scenes") and are integrated more than most earlier arias were.
Here are some CDs (most are available on Spotify (in the USA, at least), if you use that)
Wagner - Opera Arias and Duets - Birgit Nilsson, Hans Hotter, and Leopold Ludwig.
Wagner: Opera Scenes and Arias - Jessye Norman, conducted by Klaus Tennstedt
Leuchtende Liebe - Elisabet Strid
Wagner - René Pape, conducted by Daniel Barenboim
Wagner - Jonas Kaufmann, conducted by Donald Runnicles
Father and Son - Wagner scenes and arias - Simon O'Neill

Just a few of the options if you're good with historic mono sound:
2 volumes of Max Lorenz singt Richard Wagner on Preiser Records
Excerpts from Wagner Operas, with Kirsten Flagstad and Set Svanholm

I might suggest taking any of the excerpts routes, especially if there is a music streaming service (or library) you have access to where you can sample them and see what pulls you in.

For jumping into a full opera, I think Lohengrin is a great option. The classic recording is with Rudolf Kempe conducting and Jess Thomas in the title role.

But I also agree that video is important to understanding and appreciating opera. If you are in the USA and have access to Amazon Prime, there is a video from Baden-Baden you can watch, with Kent Nagano conducting. The cast includes Klaus Florian Vogt, Waltraud Meier, and Hans-Peter König. The production is by Nicholas Lehnhoff.

[And if you do have access to Amazon Prime there are quite a few more Wagner operas (and those by other composers) to watch, including a full Ring Cycle.


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## Napodano (Sep 18, 2017)

WoW mountmccabe! Yours is a treasure trove of suggestions for me.
Thank you.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Napodano said:


> WoW mountmccabe! Yours is a treasure trove of suggestions for me.
> Thank you.


I missed that your location said Rome; sorry for including the more USA-centric information. I hope much of the information is still useful!


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

I think that it's hard to predict what will work for any particular listener (I got hooked years ago simply after a single listen to "The Seraphim Guide to the RING" LP), but if you're attacking Wagner from the bel canto side, I'd definitely try Lohengrin, Dutchman, or perhaps Tannhauser. The problem with the latter is that none of the recordings is particularly good, but some of the music, particularly Wolfram's bits, are about as close to bel canto as Wagner ever came.

But if you have access to a public library, that'd be a great place to investigate before shelling out $$$.


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

The operas that clicked right away for me were Lohengrin, Tannhauser, and Die Walkure.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

It might also be a good idea when you try complete CD recordings or live performances on DVD to listen one act at a time and give yourself a little time between acts . This will make the complete operas easier to digest .


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## Napodano (Sep 18, 2017)

superhorn said:


> It might also be a good idea when you try complete CD recordings or live performances on DVD to listen one act at a time and give yourself a little time between acts . This will make the complete operas easier to digest .


Thank you superhorn! three and more hour operas... yes I will need a pause


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## Napodano (Sep 18, 2017)

wkasimer said:


> I think that it's hard to predict what will work for any particular listener (I got hooked years ago simply after a single listen to "The Seraphim Guide to the RING" LP),


Yes! 




I found this too


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

You might try a "best of the Ring" type collection. I think the Ring is the best intro since it's more characteristic (and frankly much better) than his early Romantic operas, without being as abstract or static as Tristan or Parsifal, or as atypical of his work as Meistersinger.

But it is difficult for some to consume a 15 hour work at once, so a well filled double disc of Ring highlights (not just orchestral highlights but full scenes) is a good starting point.

The Bohm, Karajan and Solti Cycles all had 2 disc compilations made at some point (oddly, Karajan and Solti had both 2 disc compilations and 1 disc ones--I'd get one of the 2 disc ones), and nowadays, they can usually be picked up for a few bucks. Looking on Amazon Italy, it looks like the Bohm is the cheapest at the moment used, and I can definitely recommend that one.

here's links--
Bohm - https://www.amazon.it/dp/B0000041EJ
Solti - https://www.amazon.it/dp/B00002458I
Karajan - https://www.amazon.it/dp/B009ICHAWW


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## Napodano (Sep 18, 2017)

Thank you, howlingfantods!

Selection discs are defintively a good start. Yes the Ring is attracting me for the challenge that it poses.


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## Napodano (Sep 18, 2017)

Dear All,

After all your generous recommendation, this is the 'route to Wagner' that I intend to take:
- listen to "The Seraphim Guide to the RING" (



 )
- go for a few best of the ring compilations of arias and overtures;
- attach the Ring via DVD (the Metropolitan one), watching one hour at the time. Translation by my side if not subtitled.

Already feel tingled by the plan. Wish me luck! 

PS: do you suggest another DVD of the Ring Cycle better than the Metropolitan?


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

Napodano said:


> Dear All,
> 
> After all your generous recommendation, this is the 'route to Wagner' that I intend to take:
> - listen to "The Seraphim Guide to the RING" (
> ...


I'm trying to watch (because I'm pretty lazy) the Chereau/Boulez ring in Youtube. It's considered superb in staging and casting. Do not go for Sawallisch or Barenboim because the settings are too abstract. The Metropolitan rings can be very traditional (Meistersinger 2001 is pretty boring), but I'd love to watch the 2011 DVD cycle with the Lepage production.

Are you watching by Met on demand, by Youtube or buying the DVD?


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

I remind you that Amazon.de (Germany) holds two Eloquence Ring cycles on sale. Both the Böhm Bayreuth (25,41€) and the Karajan Berlin (28€). Prices include the 6€ delivery fee to the EU. I myself bought the Böhm ring and I'm very excited for it to arrive. If you want to take a risk, you could spend less than 30€ in one of these celebrated and *remastered* audio recordings.


















If you want to be cautious and remain for the time being with the highlights, it's perfectly fine. I bought that ring almost without thinking twice because for CD rings in stereo, the Janowski box was the cheapest available (from 28€), and these boxes mentioned above were usually for 35 or 40€ (Böhm is not available in the US for the Eloquence remaster).


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

> Böhm is not available in the US for the Eloquence remaster


Sure it is:

https://www.amazon.com/Ring-Nibelungen-R-WAGNER/dp/B00AX20AHI

It is still probably cheaper to order it from Amazon.de, though.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

wkasimer said:


> Sure it is


Yeah. I was referring to the DarkAngel quote in the Rheingold CD thread three days ago. Nice to see an available link.



wkasimer said:


> https://www.amazon.com/Ring-Nibelungen-R-WAGNER/dp/B00AX20AHI
> 
> It is still probably cheaper to order it from Amazon.de, though.


Considering the standard delivery, it is the same 6€ for the USA, so it could be $30 for Böhm and $33 for Karajan. And that US marketplace sells from $37 and $48 respectively.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Granate said:


> so it could be $30 for Böhm and $33 for Karajan. And that US marketplace sells from $37 and $48 respectively.


I shudder to think of how much I paid for these on LP 40 years ago. By comparison, these current prices feel like theft.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

wkasimer said:


> I shudder to think of how much I paid for these on LP 40 years ago. By comparison, these current prices feel like theft.


My favorite bargain for new listeners is the big box of Wagner recordings from Bayreuth--Bohm's Ring and Tristan; Sawallisch's Lohengrin, Hollander and Tannhauser; Varviso's Meistersinger and Levine's Parsifal, and you can usually find this used for around $40 or $50. The Meistersinger and Parsifal are duds but the other 8 recordings are excellent, and that price just can't be beat.


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

Here's another way to approach Wagner:

"Shhhh. Be vewy, vewy quiet. We're hunting Wagners." (Looney Tunes, for those who may not get the reference)


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## Napodano (Sep 18, 2017)

Granate said:


> Are you watching by Met on demand, by Youtube or buying the DVD?


I am thinking to buy the DVD but I need to check with the Met on demand, which sounds intriguing if I do not have to go through a time subscription.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

Napodano said:


> I am thinking to buy the DVD but I need to check with the Met on demand, which sounds intriguing if I do not have to go through a time subscription.


The price in the web on demand is $15 (12,16€) per month (there's a 7-day free trial), the operas include subtitles in Italian and you can watch any opera apart from the two rings they have (1990 and 2012). If you buy the DVD it costs you from 65€. I think it's a no-brainer.


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## Napodano (Sep 18, 2017)

^^^^^^^^^^^

wow!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Napodano said:


> Dear All,
> 
> I feel intimidated by Wagner, or better how should I approach him?
> 
> ...


I would start with a CD of The Ring Without Words. Familiarize yourself with the great orchestral excerpts. If you like that, then get a one CD highlights disc of excerpts from Die Walküre-you will hear the best parts of this great opera, adding the voices.
If you like that, then listen to Act One of Die Walküre, complete. If you like that, then you are hooked!!!


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## Napodano (Sep 18, 2017)

hpowders said:


> get a one CD highlights disc of excerpts from Die Walküre-you will hear the best parts of this great opera, adding the voices.
> If you like that, then listen to Act One of Die Walküre, complete. If you like that, then you are hooked!!!


Interesting, hpowders!

Is Die Walkure largely considered the best of the four operas of the Ring cycle or this is subjective? best in terms of music, drama, location etc.


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## malvinrisan (Feb 17, 2017)

Napodano said:


> Interesting, hpowders!
> 
> Is Die Walkure largely considered the best of the four operas of the Ring cycle or this is subjective? best in terms of music, drama, location etc.


It's totally subjective. But i agree that Die Walküre is a really great opera. All it's elements seem to work together in a really engaging way for me. But i think the other operas have really great qualities also, they all give me different kinds of moods musically.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Napodano said:


> Interesting, hpowders!
> 
> Is Die Walkure largely considered the best of the four operas of the Ring cycle or this is subjective? best in terms of music, drama, location etc.


It's between Die Walküre and Götterdämmerung-both have a lot of great music. Some would say the former, others, the latter.

I got into Wagner the same way I suggested to you. Orchestral excerpts first. Then a highlights CD of Die Walküre. There are highlight CDs of all 4 Ring operas. You build up gradually to a complete opera, rather than total immersion and inevitable frustration-due to the lengths. Worked for me!!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Don't worry about length. Just do an act at a time with breaks for lunch and dinner, the way they do it at Bayreuth.


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## bz3 (Oct 15, 2015)

I heard excerpts first, and the first opera I watched was Lohengrin. In hindsight I wish I had started with watching The Ring or Mastersingers, but you can almost fall in anywhere if you're committed to understanding Wagner. I just don't think Lohengrin is nearly as interesting or amusing as the latter two, though I don't mean that as an insult to what I do think is a great opera.


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