# Quite a connection between Bruckner 8 and Mahler 9



## dzc4627 (Apr 23, 2015)

As many of you know, if there is one thing I am excellent at, it is picking out little themes or melodies or harmonic progressions and noticing that they are very similar to something in a different piece by a different composer. These are usually coincidental, I'd imagine, however this one seems a bit too special for me to pass off as pure chance. Although, I could easily imagine this little similarity being unintentional on behalf of Mahler, as I as a composer (albeit not a composer anywhere near the expertise of Mahler of course) have often found myself writing something that is subconsciously derived. Caveats aside, here are the excerpts:

Here is the Bruckner, what would of course be the source for Mahler's derivation, intentional or otherwise:




 The excerpt starts at 3m27s and goes until around 4m05s.

Here is the Mahler, that recognizable chorale theme from the Adagio of his 9th:




 The excerpt starts at 0m17s and lasts for a few seconds before diverges from the Bruckner. The theme reappears many times throughout the movement.

Now, yes, both are more or less modeled on that old hymn "Abide with me" : 




However... both the Mahler and Bruckner put that little spin on it, the deceptive cadence, where the progression goes in an unexpected place, as opposed to the tonic like the original hymn does. In the key of C, the deceptive cadence would go something like: CMajor, GMajor, G#Major.

I know for a fact that Mahler and Bruckner at least knew each other, and that Mahler called Bruckner "his forerunner." (Bruckner and Mahler by Bruno Walter) Thus, I could imagine Mahler picking this up intentionally from Bruckner 8. Yet, this could actually just be a commonality in classical music that I have yet to hear enough for me to accept it as a commonality. I don't think so, though, because I have only heard it in these two pieces.

Thoughts? Is this a total coincidence? Is it just a convention that both composers used? Thanks for reading this long and tedious post about a very simple connection!


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## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

It is a pity Händel is not available to respond to this - I am sure he would have something enlightening to share with us...


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## jailhouse (Sep 2, 2016)

Bruckner was mahlers teacher and mahler was the conductor who premeired the full version if the 6th symphony after bruckner died. Theres also the story of how mahler was one of the few that remained in ghe audience for the end of bruckners third during its premiere.

So yes, they knew eachother. Mahker was VERY influenced by him (and wagner too obvioisly)


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## jailhouse (Sep 2, 2016)

The tribute is also very obvious. There is no question he took the theme from bruckner and im glad he did because what a theme it is


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## dzc4627 (Apr 23, 2015)

jailhouse said:


> The tribute is also very obvious. There is no question he took the theme from bruckner and im glad he did because what a theme it is


I absolutely love the theme. Mahler expanded on it so well in the Adagio... no other movement of music can drive me to emotional breakdown so easily. I bet, that if I heard the adagio from another room, with the speaker in a box in a closet, I'd still cry!


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## dzc4627 (Apr 23, 2015)

jailhouse said:


> Bruckner was mahlers teacher and mahler was the conductor who premeired the full version if the 6th symphony after bruckner died. Theres also the story of how mahler was one of the few that remained in ghe audience for the end of bruckners third during its premiere.
> 
> So yes, they knew eachother. Mahker was VERY influenced by him (and wagner too obvioisly)


Glad to hear of this connection. Mahler and Bruckner are my 2 favorite composers by far. Very satisfying to hear that they have biographical connections as well.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

jailhouse said:


> The tribute is also very obvious. There is no question *he took the theme from bruckner* and im glad he did because what a theme it is


How do you know this? Sources? References?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

KRoad said:


> It is a pity Händel is not available to respond to this - I am sure he would have something enlightening to share with us...


For me you did that .


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## GodotsArrived (Jan 12, 2017)

And in other news, people are influenced by their teachers. Not being intentionally sarcastic or dismissive but the issue I raise is "does this tell us anything we didn't already know"? Yes, forensic analysis of symphonic scores can expose incidences like this (and, likely, there are many others) but is it detective work for its own sake? At this level of detail, are we hearing the notes but missing the point?


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## dzc4627 (Apr 23, 2015)

GodotsArrived said:


> And in other news, people are influenced by their teachers. Not being intentionally sarcastic or dismissive but the issue I raise is "does this tell us anything we didn't already know"? Yes, forensic analysis of symphonic scores can expose incidences like this (and, likely, there are many others) but is it detective work for its own sake? At this level of detail, are we hearing the notes but missing the point?


Despite your second sentence, you _were_ being intentionally sarcastic and dismissive, based on your opening bit of dismissive sarcasm.

I looked all over for any kind of noting of this connection and could not find it, so I decided to write something about it, on a totally apt forum. One can get the "point" of a piece and also find interest in the specifics. This specific theme is very significant to the Mahler 9 Adagio, and so it is significant that Mahler would have found his inspiration for it in Bruckner. It tells us more about their connection. Will be _waiting _ on a response, _Godot_.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

GodotsArrived said:


> And in other news, people are influenced by their teachers. Not being intentionally sarcastic or dismissive but the issue I raise is "does this tell us anything we didn't already know"? Yes, forensic analysis of symphonic scores can expose incidences like this (and, likely, there are many others) but is it detective work for its own sake? At this level of detail, are we hearing the notes but missing the point?


If you hadn't noticed the resemblance, it would indeed tell you something you didn't already know. Is there something wrong with detective work for its own sake? Does there need to be a further point? And if there should be one, how would we discover it without the detective work? Serendipity is a wonderful thing.


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## Scott in PA (Aug 13, 2016)

It’s probably not a coincidence. Mahler had the type of creative mind that was frequently transforming, rearranging, and recreating things that he heard in other composers’ music. 

Take two other examples, one obvious and one more subtle. Mahler practically quotes a theme played by the trombones in the Liszt E flat Piano Concerto (third movement) in the first movement of his Sixth Symphony. 

Much more subtle is a transformation of the first four notes of the famous cello melody from the third movement of Brahms Third Symphony. Mahler uses the same four notes (transposed from c minor to c# minor) in the funeral march melody of the Fifth Symphony. They begin with the same dotted rhythm, but the third note is held in the Brahms, whereas the fourth note is held in the Mahler. Mahler probably happened on this in an unconscious manner but surely he eventually realized the similar contour to the melodies. I don’t think there’s anything illegitimate about this. It’s not stealing or plagiarizing: it’s using a small kernel as a basis for inspiration. Consider also the echoes of the Ode to Joy melody in Brahms’ First.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

dzc4627 said:


> I looked all over for any kind of noting of this connection and could not find it, so I decided to write something about it, on a totally apt forum. One can get the "point" of a piece and also find interest in the specifics. This specific theme is very significant to the Mahler 9 Adagio, and so it is significant that Mahler would have found his inspiration for it in Bruckner. It tells us more about their connection. Will be _waiting _ on a response, _Godot_.


Thank you, dzc4627, for pointing out this connection between the two works. I find this sort of thing very interesting...I love to trace musical influences, tributes and allusions! As soon as I have the chance, I intend to re-listen to both symphonies with this new context in mind. Who knows, maybe I'll even spot a few more resemblances between the two works, and if so I'll post them here! 

Of course, not everyone will see the value in this type of work. Any field of study, including the study of musical allusions, is bound to interest some people while leaving others cold. But for those of us who do find it rewarding to track patterns of influence, your discovery is important and useful.


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## dzc4627 (Apr 23, 2015)

Scott in PA said:


> It's probably not a coincidence. Mahler had the type of creative mind that was frequently transforming, rearranging, and recreating things that he heard in other composers' music.
> 
> Take two other examples, one obvious and one more subtle. Mahler practically quotes a theme played by the trombones in the Liszt E flat Piano Concerto (third movement) in the first movement of his Sixth Symphony.
> 
> Much more subtle is a transformation of the first four notes of the famous cello melody from the third movement of Brahms Third Symphony. Mahler uses the same four notes (transposed from c minor to c# minor) in the funeral march melody of the Fifth Symphony. They begin with the same dotted rhythm, but the third note is held in the Brahms, whereas the fourth note is held in the Mahler. Mahler probably happened on this in an unconscious manner but surely he eventually realized the similar contour to the melodies. I don't think there's anything illegitimate about this. It's not stealing or plagiarizing: it's using a small kernel as a basis for inspiration. Consider also the echoes of the Ode to Joy melody in Brahms' First.


Thanks for all of these connections. I will definitely be checking them out. Being the Brahms fan I am, I was actually listening to his first a week ago after not listening for a while, and immediately noticed that similarity with Beethoven 9, in the last movement. With the way Brahms idolized Beethoven, I wouldn't doubt this was intentional.

There is also of course the example of that same Beethoven-like melody in Brahms 1 being used directly as the main theme of Mahler 3 mvmt 1!


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## dzc4627 (Apr 23, 2015)

Bettina said:


> Thank you, dzc4627, for pointing out this connection between the two works. I find this sort of thing very interesting...I love to trace musical influences, tributes and allusions! As soon as I have the chance, I intend to re-listen to both symphonies with this new context in mind. Who knows, maybe I'll even spot a few more resemblances between the two works, and if so I'll post them here!
> 
> Of course, not everyone will see the value in this type of work. Any field of study, including the study of musical allusions, is bound to interest some people while leaving others cold. But for those of us who do find it rewarding to track patterns of influence, your discovery is important and useful.


Thank you so much for the kind words Bettina! And yes, please do share any findings.


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## jailhouse (Sep 2, 2016)

hpowders said:


> How do you know this? Sources? References?


I dont have documentation...im using my ears (the first part of tge theme is virtually the same) and combining that with the fact that mahler both knew and respected bruckner


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Composers themselves might not be delighted to have these resemblances pointed out. Brahms, to someone who noted a resemblance between the last movement of his First Symphony and Beethoven's "Ode to Joy": "Any a** can see that." (Asterisks contributed by the site's anti-donkey software.)


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

jailhouse said:


> I dont have documentation...im using my ears (the first part of tge theme is virtually the same) and combining that with the fact that mahler both knew and respected bruckner


Yeah, but couldn't this simply be a coincidence? Mahler certainly didn't need any help from Bruckner, as the former was one of the most extraordinary creative musical geniuses ever.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

hpowders said:


> Yeah, but couldn't this simply be a coincidence? Mahler certainly didn't need any help from Bruckner, as the former was one of the most extraordinary creative musical geniuses ever.


There needn't be any implication of plagiarism. Composers absorb others' music, both consciously and unconsciously.

Then there was Stravinsky (or Picasso, take your pick): "Lesser artists imitate; great artists steal." It can be a challenge to find new ways to use someone else's ideas, as Wagner did when he took a few motifs from Berlioz and Mendelssohn and made them his own.


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