# Old wagner recordings



## Notung (Jun 12, 2013)

Hey everyone.

I want to dig deeper into old Wagner recordings (preferably Bayreuth). I would like sound quality where you can get all the orchestral details. (Oh, and NO prompters whispering lines). Any recommendations?

Specific conductors:

Knappertsbusch

This Keilberth guy I keep hearing about

Bohm


Remember: good pricing


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

Notung said:


> Hey everyone.
> 
> I want to dig deeper into old Wagner recordings (preferably Bayreuth). I would like sound quality where you can get all the orchestral details. (Oh, and NO prompters whispering lines). Any recommendations?
> 
> ...


My favorite _Parsifal_ is Knappertsbusch 62. It's available on Spotify so besides the monthly fee, it is free there.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Here is the greatest vintage Wagner recording of them all... Free. Can't beat that pricing.

Die Walkure Act 1
Bruno Walter / Vienna Philharmonic 1935
Lauritz Melchior / Lotte Lehmann / Emanuel List
http://www.vintageip.com/xfers/walkureact1walter1935.mp3


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Notung said:


> Hey everyone.
> 
> I want to dig deeper into old Wagner recordings (preferably Bayreuth). I would like sound quality where you can get all the orchestral details. (Oh, and NO prompters whispering lines). Any recommendations?
> 
> ...


If they are old how do you expect all the orchestral details to be heard ?
Glancing at some of the items I have they include Kirsten Flagstad and Set Svanholm in the "Siegfried" Act 3 finale 'Heil dir Sonne' which is fantastic but from 1951.
Flagstad and Lauritz Melchior performing the Love duet from "Tristan und Isolde" ,1939.
"100 Years of Bayreuth" ,the earliest recording on this is Emmy Destinn in 1907.
Bayreuther Festspiele 1930-1944.
As the present state of Wagnerian singing is at a low ebb it behoves you to dig deeper but you can't have it both ways.
Keilberth was an excellent conductor not very well treated by the British critics--but what do I know about Wagner !
As for pricing look at the suppliers lists as I have no time to do it for you as much as I would love to of course.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Krauss Ring from 1952 is absolutely superb in decent sound for the time. The principals have probably never been surpassed as a group, and especially Hotter is in pristine voice, which he wasn't for the Solti set.


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## Zingo (Feb 17, 2010)

To nit-pick, Krauss only appeared one year at Bayreuth, in 1953. His Ring together with Karajan's Tristan from 1952 would be my essential picks from early post-war Bayreuth, but it should be said that neither of them is in very good sound. To the original poster I would suggest Böhm's Tristan and Ring from '66 and '67 instead.


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## Adeodatus100 (May 27, 2013)

As I recently posted on another thread, which of the early 50s Bayreuths is it where Wolfgang Windgassen makes a complete mess of Siegfried's forging song? Is it the '53 Krauss? I've heard other bits of the Krauss and it sounds very impressive.

The '55 Keilberth Ring was the first recorded in stereo. I've only heard a few excerpts from that too - great cast, great recording, ludicrous price. (It's currently on my Amazon wish list at £111 - I'm waiting till it's half that!)

As a starter, why not try one of the recent box sets from ZYX Classics? The packaging is extremely basic- you just get a track list for each opera. I think there may also be the odd glitch on the sound, where one of the tracks drops out for a moment (though that could have been my antiquated headphones) - switching your output to mono would probably fix that. But in one box you get the Knappertsbusch '51 _Parsifal_, the Karajan '51 _Meistersinger_, and the great 1952 Furtwängler/Flagstad/Suthaus _Tristan_. In another box, which I've just ordered, you get a Ring made up of Keilberth Bayreuth recordings from '52 and '53, plus Furtwängler's 1954 _Walküre_ with the Vienna Phil, and Martha Mödl as Brünnhilde.

I've had a recording of the '62 _Parsifal_ for years, and have to say I prefer it tothe '51. The main cast might not be quite as good, but the chorus and orchestra are much better, and there's a lot less audience noise. And, of course, it's in stereo.

The '51 _Meistersinger_ is gorgeous - much better, I think, than Karajan's later (1970?) recording. This one has Elizabeth Schwarzkopf as Eva.

As for the Furtwängler _Tristan_, for me it pretty much beats everything else, despite the mono recording. The sound quality's great and ... well, let's cut to the chase here - it's got Flagstad.


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## Notung (Jun 12, 2013)

How about Knappertsbusch's '56 ring? I'm usually very partial to him.


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## Notung (Jun 12, 2013)

I prefer a Ring with one conductor, one vision.

Looking at Keilberth and Knappertsbusch.

The Zyx boz of non-Ring operas looks great. And the Price!!!


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Keilberth 55 and Kna 56 couldn't be further apart in price. I waited two years to find the Keilberth for $99 used. And the Kna 56 sells used for under $50. Both good choices, but there's a reason the Keilberth can get away with being so expensive. It's pretty special in every way.

However, the Bohm Bayreuth Ring can be gotten for a little over $40 used, and is just about as special as the Keilberth.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

By the way, if you are interested particularly in Bayreuth, you can scoop up a big swath of the best of early Bayreuth at $1.20 a disk or so with this box set...

http://www.amazon.com/Wagners-Vision-Bayreuth-Hans-Hotter/dp/B008MYYODK/

Here is what is in the box...

http://www.membran-online.de/product_info.php?language=en&products_id=4496


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## Notung (Jun 12, 2013)

Bohm ? Hmmm.

Is it better than Kna '56? Or the Keilberth?


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Bohm (Philips) is in stereo and uses many of the same performers as Solti. It is an excellent representation of the Bayreuth acoustic, but if you already have Solti, it might not be the best choice. Very brisk and exciting performance.

Keilberth 55 (Testament) is the gold standard. It is VERY expensive, but it is in excellent stereo and captures a lot of performers in their prime that are only heard in dim mono recordings otherwise. It's a great Ring all around. There is another Keilberth (53) It has good sound, but it isn't in the same league. If you're a dedicated Wagnerian, hold out until you can afford 55. It's worth it.

If you are looking for a budget historical Ring, I would recommend these, in this order...

Furtwangler RAI and/or La Scala (Everyone should have these- Either Gebhardt or the newest EMI remastering)
Krauss (Opera D'Oro)
Knappertsbusch 56 (Music & Arts)


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## Adeodatus100 (May 27, 2013)

Böhm has a lot of fire and fury about him. Sometimes he goes a bit too fast for my liking - for instance, during "Ewig war ich" at the end of _Siegfried_. That said, I think his _Götterdämmerung_ in particular is glorious. His Brünnhilde is Birgit Nilsson, whose colossal voice does sometimes have a bit of a cold edge to it. His Siegfried is Wolfgang Windgassen, who could probably sing the role in his sleep by this time. His Wotan is Theo Adam, who was a great performer, but whose vibrato often turned into a wobble. But he is awesome at the end of _Walküre_.

I've only heard bits of Kna '56 and Keilberth '55. Both have Astrid Varnay as Brünnhilde - glorious, authoritative voice, warmer to my ear than Nilsson's. Both also, I think, have Hans Hotter as Wotan - not always perfectly on the note, but unfailing in the drama and emotion he brings to the role.

Böhm and Keilberth are in stereo; Kna is only in mono, and the bits I've heard are quite noisy.

Here's Keilberth's "Siegfried's death" - 




And here's Kna's -


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Adeodatus100 said:


> As I recently posted on another thread, which of the early 50s Bayreuths is it where Wolfgang Windgassen makes a complete mess of Siegfried's forging song? Is it the '53 Krauss?


Actually, it's both the Keilberth and the Krauss. The CD versions of Keilberth 53 substitute Krauss's 53 Act 1 in Siegfried for some reason. Hard to notice because they have the same cast.


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## Zingo (Feb 17, 2010)

I absolutely agree on Furtwängler and Krauss as the really essential historical recordings to have in one's collection. The Keilberth 1955 is mainly interesting as a document of the singers in much better sound than anywhere else - the conducting isn't in the same league as Furtwängler and Krauss (but then that goes for virtually any conductor). I can't share your enthusiasm for Kna though - I find his slow approach deadly in Wagner, I much prefer Krauss and Böhm. My recommendation for a first Ring recording would in fact be Böhm.

It makes sense that 1953 was the year Windgassen botched the forging song, as it was his first year in the role. He's more enjoyable to listen to in these early years than in the more famous recordings from the sixties.


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## Adeodatus100 (May 27, 2013)

Zingo said:


> .... I can't share your enthusiasm for Kna though - I find his slow approach deadly in Wagner, I much prefer Krauss and Böhm....


I'm not always a fan of Kna. It depended what mood he was in. I think his incredibly slow '51 _Parsifal_ is amazing, but I think part of the reason the chorus are so often wayward is precisely because he is taking it so slowly. Hi '62 recording, I think, is about half an hour shorter. I've heard people say his tempi in the Ring are sometimes a bit eccentric.

*Bigshot* - that's very odd about the substitution of Act 1 of _Siegfried_. I wonder if there was something so horribly wrong with the Keilberth that they substituted the Krauss which was only a bit wrong?


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

I like Kna. He's slow in the weighty stuff, but keeps the light stuff light. The only problem is when a singer can't hold out as long as he can. It takes a really good cast to work with a slower conductor. But there's lot revealed that way that might get glossed over with a faster one. That's why there is no "one Ring".

I'm guessing all of the CD versions of the Keilberth have the substituted first act of Sieggie because they all are using the same source. I think the only version with the correct beginning was back in the LP era. But I've never heard it.

I can't remember who it was that told me about that...


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## Bill H. (Dec 23, 2010)

For those who want the Furtwängler RAI (1953) recording, I would definitely recommend the Pristine Classical version--taken from the 1970s LPs as source material, which are far superior in sound quality to either the horrible Gebhardt or even EMI's overfiltered ca. 1990 CD remaster. 

The more recent EMI Japan remaster is in excellent sound, but the price is prohibitive.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

The Gebhardt La Scala is great. I don't remember which RAI I have, but it sounds very good. The LP copy I have of La Scala is completely unlistenable (Seraphim?) I remember being very angry when I spent all that money for it at Tower Westwood and then bringing it home and listening to it. The RAI LP set was marginally better.


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## Notung (Jun 12, 2013)

bigshot said:


> Actually, it's both the Keilberth and the Krauss. The CD versions of Keilberth 53 substitute Krauss's 53 Act 1 in Siegfried for some reason. Hard to notice because they have the same cast.


But not the '55 Keilberth, right?


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## Notung (Jun 12, 2013)

Oh, so all the Keilberths are ruined?

I like Knappertsbusch best, so the '56 may be the one for me (to start with in historical rings, anyway).


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## Bill H. (Dec 23, 2010)

Notung said:


> Oh, so all the Keilberths are ruined?
> 
> I like Knappertsbusch best, so the '56 may be the one for me (to start with in historical rings, anyway).


The '55 Keilberth has no substitution, so far as I know. Even so, I wouldn't considered the '53 "ruined" because there's a few measures of Windgassen being off the beat. As Culshaw and others have noted, it was something of a characteristic for him to be ahead of the beat, and the rest of his performance in '53 more than makes up for it.

I haven't heard too many of the Kna Rings, but I do get the impression that the '56 is among the better ones, more so than the ones he did over the following few years.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

I think it could be said to be ruined since the whole first act is from a different performance with a different conductor.


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## Notung (Jun 12, 2013)

Bill H. said:


> The '55 Keilberth has no substitution, so far as I know.
> 
> 
> > Then the '55 is back on my short list.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

The live Fliegende Hollander from wartime Munich with Krauss conducting and his wife Viorica Ursuleac as Senta and a young Hotter , which may be available on more than one label has surprisingly decent sound 
and is very exciting .


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Notung said:


> Hey everyone.
> 
> I want to dig deeper into old Wagner recordings (preferably Bayreuth). I would like sound quality where you can get all the orchestral details. (Oh, and NO prompters whispering lines). Any recommendations?
> 
> ...




Zyx label 13 CD Ring *$10 new *at Amazon USA sellers
1952 Keilberth Rheingold, Gotterdammerung + 1953 Keilberth Seigfried + 1954 Furtwangler VPO Walkure (studio recording!) The mono sound is very good.......

Also each opera sold individually


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## Rangstrom (Sep 24, 2010)

For the ring, I'd go with '56 Knappertsbusch, '55 Keilberth and '53 Krauss in that order. But if I were looking to start a collection of historical Wagner operas I'd pick up the new Son/Met set (missing Parsifal for some reason). Highlights include the '37 Bodanzky Siegfried for Melchior, the '43 Leinsdorf/Melchior Walküre (although I slightly prefer the Naxos '41 release), the relatively rare '38 Melchior/Flagstad/Bodanzky Tristan (a step below '36 Reiner and '37 Beecham), and a surprisingly good '51 Stiedry Rheingold. (Hotter in fine form/Froh and Donner pretty poor).The '36 Götterdämmerung sound is far better than the Naxos release but still a challenge. The '43 Leinsdorf/Melchior/Varney Lohengrin is fun if highly cut (the Sony/Met set does have quite a few cuts) and accepting the Melchior/Lohengrin vocal mismatch.

For Lohegrin nothing matches Völker/Müller/Heger from '42, historical or modern. Too bad Vickers thought the role silly. For Tristan I go back and forth on '36 Reiner and '52 Fürtwangler (Naoxs release). '53 Jochum is a darkhorse, but the sound falls apart dreadfully in act 3. I haven't had much luck with historical Meistersingers (good orchestral sound too important for this opera?). '60 Knappertsbusch maybe. Is the '67 Kubelik (with Konya doing a fantastic job) too recent? It isn't exactly cheap.

For Parsifal: '51, '62, '64 (Vickers) Knappertsbusch are all excellent and very different. Dutchman would be '44 Krauss (so-so sound) or maybe the '50 Reiner in the Sony/Met set, both with Hotter. For Tannhäuser nothing touches Solti's modern recording, but the '41 Leinsdorf (funny how often his name comes up) is decent.

I'd also consider the Naxos sets of extensive selections: '27-'28 Muck Parsifal, '28 Elmendorff Tristan and '30 Elmendorff Tannhäuser.


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## Adeodatus100 (May 27, 2013)

Notung said:


> Then the '55 is back on my short list.


It's down to £110.48! Maybe if we all wish _really hard..._

I found the '53 Krauss on Spotify and played Siegfried's forging song. It's actually not nearly as bad as I remember it. I've listened to one or two other tracks, too, and it really is an excellent performance.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

If you put a tracker on Amazon, it will let you know if the price on a used copy drops enough. I got the 55 Keilberth for $99 that way, but it took almost two years!


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## Adeodatus100 (May 27, 2013)

Well, my ZYX box of the Ring arrived, and fortunately I had a day off work today.

Obviously I've only had time to listen to highlights (a chap has to eat), and there are a few shortcomings, but these are very fine performances.

The shortcomings include some odd wobbles in the sound in Act 3 of _Walküre_, which I need to check against other editions of the Furtwängler to see if it's ZYX or the master tape at fault; and (because these are from different Cycles) differences in sound level between the operas - so, for example, you go from a relatively loud and close acoustic in _Siegfried_ to a more distant acoustic in _Götterdämmerung_, and it's a bit jarring. Also, yes, Act 1 of _Siegfried_ seems to be the one from the Krauss Cycle.

On the plus side, there are three great conductors and some awesome singers here - Lorenz and a young Windgassen as Siegfried; Mödl and Varnay as Brünnhilde; Uhde, Frantz and Hotter as Wotan/Wanderer. If you need proof that the 50s, and particularly 50s Bayreuth, were a Wagner Golden Age, start here.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Adeodatus100 said:


> *Well, my ZYX box of the Ring arrived*, and fortunately I had a day off work today.
> 
> Obviously I've only had time to listen to highlights (a chap has to eat), and there are a few shortcomings, but these are very fine performances.
> 
> ...


Insanely cheap Wagner Ring, Amazon USA prime (free 2 day shipping) $13.86 new......


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I am listening to part of Clement Krauss' Ring. It is from 1952 but the sound is not at all bad. I'm listening to Siegfried the final duet and it is utterly magnificent. Varnay and Windgassen at their peak. Before that in Act 3 comes Hotter. I always wondered somewhat why he was so admired but of course the Solti set called him when he was past his best. Here he is incomparable. This is probably the best Ring on disc if, of course, you can take the limited sound.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

DavidA said:


> *I am listening to part of Clement Krauss' Ring*. *It is from 1952 but the sound is not at all bad*. I'm listening to Siegfried the final duet and it is utterly magnificent. Varnay and Windgassen at their peak. Before that in Act 3 comes Hotter. I always wondered somewhat why he was so admired but of course the Solti set called him when he was past his best. Here he is incomparable. This is probably the best Ring on disc if, of course, you can take the limited sound.


If money is no object you can significantly improve sound quality with Pristine Audio remaster, check the Siegfried act 3 extended sound sample right side........

http://www.pristineclassical.com/LargeWorks/Vocal/PACO041.php


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## Notung (Jun 12, 2013)

How about Kna '51 (I have the '62, love it).

I heard there are problems with the '51 chorus but I found them awesome. Would like to get the whole thing.

Any opinions?


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

This 50 CD boxset of vintage golden era Bayreuth opera performances is well worth getting, $65 new at Amazon USA sellers.

The sets foucuses on best performances of golden age 1950s and early 1960s with 1-2 complete performances each of Dutchman -> Parsifal including dream Ring assembled from different years. Then following each complete opera is 1-2 discs of highlights of various older important performances of that opera some going back very far in time before 1950, so you get a detailed historical perspective through the years of each opera.

Great to have such a comprehensive historical collection organized in one box, some of these are very hard to find or cost more than entire boxset. Do what must be done wagnerites (buy)


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## Adeodatus100 (May 27, 2013)

Notung said:


> View attachment 20709
> 
> 
> How about Kna '51 (I have the '62, love it).
> ...


The main problems with the chorus are in the Act 1 temple scene. If you can stand them singing at their own pace while Kna is conducting at his, you'll be okay. The only other problem I had was that it took me some time to get used to Ludwig Weber's very old-school theatrical playing (or declaiming) of Gurnemanz. Everything else is absolutely great, especially for me Martha Mödl's Kundry. Her attempted seduction of our hero in Act 2 sends shivers down my spine. And although it's very slow, Kna's pacing is faultless - it's conducting you can really immerse yourself in.

In other news, I've just listened to the _Götterdämmerung_ from the ZYX set - the Keilberth '52. Astrid Varnay as Brünnhilde and Max Lorenz as Siegfried - beyond awesome. (In Siegfried's death scene, I've never heard anyone sing beautifully, and yet as if they have a spear in their back, as much as Lorenz does!)


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## Notung (Jun 12, 2013)

So Weber suffers from "Bayreuth Bark?"


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## Adeodatus100 (May 27, 2013)

Notung said:


> So Weber suffers from "Bayreuth Bark?"


Not quite - there are much worse barkers. I think he actually suffers, like the chorus, from not quite getting Kna's beat, which results in a sometimes heavy rubato, and sliding onto some notes. It makes him sometimes sound like one of those old "this is _my_ opera, and I'll sing it how I like" types, but I'm sure that's not really what it is. Anyway, I found I got used to it after a while.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

The live 55 Ring from Bayreuth ( 1st stereo Ring) with Varnay is INCREDIBLE. I love both her and Birgit, but find Varnay more interesting.


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