# Brahms 1 ode to joy resemblance.



## BenG (Aug 28, 2018)

I have frequently seen people on TC casually talk about how the c major theme in Brahms 1 finale resembles Beethoven's ode to joy melody. I have never understood this. I hear almost no similarities between the melodies other than they are both nice melodies. What am I missing?


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Someone mentioned that to Brahms and he said "any *** can see that". There is a subtle similarity, not only note wise, but in terms of the rise and fall of the line and the rhythmic element, too. Compare the ninth bar of each tune, maybe that helps. But I agree with you - it's not all that clear.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Yep. For clarification, I think Brahms would refer you to a donkey. 

But seriously, both themes are diatonic; in other words, there aren't any accidentals; the themes are straight scale notes. 
Both themes are in two parts. The theme is a phrase that repeats, then another phrase that repeats (though they end differently, because Brahms can't resist a chance to insert a rhythm shift).
They both have the same basic direction note-wise. 
They both are the same tempo. 

I guess there is more, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Well, the Brahms is one of the few world-class "tunes" that can stand next to Beethoven's. Just for that, it deserves comparison, even if the actual resemblance is more a matter of nobility and four-squareness. t's more like Brahms saying "I can do it, too."


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I've long heard the Brahms First referred to as "Beethoven's Tenth", and I see nothing wrong with that. I wouldn't mind writing a play that was compared favorably to one by Shakespeare. The Brahms First has long been one of my favorite symphonic works, and I certainly catch a glint of the "Ode to Joy" melody in the great 4th Movement theme by Brahms. I likely prefer the Brahms tune.

Talking of Beethoven's Tenth … I remember getting the MCA Classics ‎(MCA-6269) vinyl LP of the Wyn Morris/LSO recording of Dr. Barry Cooper's realization/completion/concoction titled Beethoven's Symphony No. 10 In E Flat.









What made an immediate impression on me was the key signature. I recall wondering about those three flats, present in both the Beethoven Tenth Sketches Dr. Cooper worked with and in the Brahms First (which is in C minor). I wondered then and still don't know: could Brahms have known Beethoven was working in the key of three flats for his Tenth when he [Brahms] finally turned to writing the symphony he dreaded, the notorious "Beethoven's Tenth"? I don't suspect Brahms ever saw the Beethoven sketches, but I do believe he was highly "tuned into" Beethoven's musical consciousness, as one genius with another.

In any case, I hold nothing against Brahms for his inspirations for the sublime First Symphony, my favorite of the Brahms symphonies, all of which I love. And my favorite movement of the great First Symphony has always been the Finale. Rock on, Brahms. You won me over with that Symphony No. 1, and I've remained a fan for over 50 years.


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