# No More Shoulder Rest!



## Quaverion

I am reading a book by Leopold Auer (Heifetz' teacher) where he says that shoulder rests steal about 1/3 of the violin's tone and projection because it absorbs vibrations and acts as a mute. I am now trying (very hard) to play without my shoulder rest. I was just wondering what you think of this, and if anyone has ever heard of this before and does it.


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## Nox

Shoulder rests are relatively new. When I started violin lessons as a child no one used them. Now everyone pretty much starts off with one. A shoulder rest makes it MUCH easier to learn to shift and do vibrato.

I tried a shoulder rest - both with the violin and viola. It puts me in a totally different position and I fatigue easier (normally I can practice 1-2 hours...with the shoulder rest I can barely make 10 min. without needing a break because my muscles in my hands, shoulders and lower back start to cramp). 

In addition, the Kun violin rest does not fit securely on my current violin, so I was always tensed when I used it waiting for it to pop off.

I figured it wasn't worth the pain/stress and I haven't used it again - with the understanding that it will maybe take me longer to become proficient at vibrato and shifting than if I were using one.

All told, my take is that a shoulder rest is a beneficial device - I don't think it mutes the sound anymore than your actual shoulder will. Having said that, you do NOT have to use a shoulder rest ! I've also come across numerous comments from professionals and teachers who also say you don't HAVE to use one.

Just be aware of the pros and cons before you make your decision.


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## baroque flute

You're not talking about the chin rest, right, just the shoulder rest??  I don't use a shoulder rest, and I don't need one. But I'm glad to know about this, because I had been considering trying one.


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## max

I've found it really depends on the player. I personally use one, cuz, shifting is much more difficult without it.


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## becky

Personally, I need one to play! My neck is the type that is great for dangly earrings, really long. It actually hurts to try to play without one. If I tried for long I'm sure I'd get a neck cramp! I never tried shifting without a shoulder rest because I'd probably drop my instrument.


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## Nulli Secundus

The shoulder rest situation (if u can really call it one) is starting to become quite controversal. Personally, I find it hard to play without one, but that's just due to the fact that I started learning violin with it. I do have a few friends who do not play with a shoulder rest, and a renowned teacher, Mr. Zafer, dissapproves of them. I have a wolf shoulder rest- and i've tried playing without it (resulting in bad neck cramps and my constant complaining) but i don't hear too much difference in sounds quality.

Nulli Secundus


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## Daniel

I had a Wolf firstly too, but i got neck problems (I have a tall neck ), so I changed to a KUN. Much better now.

About the question: shoulder rest yes or no. Hm i never tried it without, I should actually.


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## Nox

I did, on Monday, order a padded rest that sits over your shoulder...to try specifically with the viola...so I can stop using the dishcloth (which shifts and falls off all the time)...I didn't get around to rubber-banding a sponge onto it as suggested...that would work too...

...I'll let you know how the padded rest works when I get it...it's here if anyone wants to look...

http://www.shoulderpet.com/ordering.htm


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## Quaverion

This is the new shoulder rest I am ordering soon.

http://www.sharmusic.com/itemdy00.asp?T1=1346+L&Cat=


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## Daniel

Looks very practical...actually I should search for a new one as well...I have spin and neck problems.


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## Nox

My shoulder rest/pad arrived yesterday! Looks like it's the answer to my viola problems...tried it with the violin too...don't know if I need or like it...but I'll experiement a little more...

...I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it...


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## Quaverion

My shoulder rest should arrive soon. I really can't wait. I'll tell you about how it is in about a week.


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## violabratsche1

> _Originally posted by Quaverion_@Aug 20 2004, 03:40 PM
> *I am reading a book by Leopold Auer (Heifetz' teacher) where he says that shoulder rests steal about 1/3 of the violin's tone and projection because it absorbs vibrations and acts as a mute. I am now trying (very hard) to play without my shoulder rest. I was just wondering what you think of this, and if anyone has ever heard of this before and does it.
> [snapback]1584[/snapback]​*




I have been hearing this discussion for many, many years. Violists of my aquaintance have gone through changes every few months, working on the idea of no shoulder rest. The logic of it seems to come down to this: although a shoulder rest DOES affect the sound, so does the shoulder in contact with the instrument, and destroying one's back and causing permanent tendonitis is not worth the cost of some of the sound of the instrument. I think I'd rather play for years to come, than to spend the rest of my life not playing my viola, and in agony. 
I HAVE experimented with different shoulder rests, and the contact point of the shoulder rest itself, with the imstrument, seems to be the important factor. The Kun seems to be the least constricting to the sound quality, over the PlayOnAir, and simple sponges.  
Anne


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## Daniel

Welcome to the board, Anne. 

Yes, I agree. I have a tall neck...so without shoulder rest I could get real problems. 

How much does a shoulder rest affect the sound?


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## violabratsche1

Hi Daniel!
Thank you!!
Personally, I find that the shoulder rest, especially the Kun, which attaches only at the edges, affects the sound only minutely. If I were a soloist, with a REALLY valuable instrument, I would worry...I'm not, so I don't. I find that the PlayOnAir affects the sound more. 
After using the Kun very comfortably and happily for more than 25 years, I suddenly started having back problems. I accidentally forgot it, for a quartet rehearsal, borrowed what was available, a PlayOnAir, and hey presto!....immediately, no sore back. I tried going back and forth between the two...no go....it was the Kun. Now...we all do change. I never once had a problem before, with it. I have students who, when first getting the Kun, have trouble with it, as they are not using it properly....the ones who DO use it properly, immeditaely find it a massive relief. 
I have found that I dislike the others, as they are less flexible, and less adjustable to my shape, than the other solid style shoulder rests.
 
Anne


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## Daniel

Firstly I had Wolf, but got back problems as well...then I went to a violin builder and tried many alternative marques, the result was KUN after I tried a KUN several month which my violin teacher borrowed to me.

One thing I don't like with KUN: It is not that flexible than I want it to be. Wolf you could really bend, but I have problems with KUN to do it, I dunno, maybe I am inable...some future plans for shoulder rests might be bigger shoulder rests. I think they are too small in size. If you have it much bigger in length and weidth, and if it is made by more soft material, you might have less pains caused by shoulder rests, but that will be special made shoulder rests done for every violinist individually....(if this shoulder rests exists yet, tell me, I must try it..)

So far my dream of a shoulder rest.


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## violabratsche1

I've never seen published information on how to properly USE the various shoulder rests, and have found that they are often mis-used. If properly adjusted, the Kun should fit snugly, and comfortably, as an extension of the shoulder, to support the instrument in the most advantagious palying position. They are also infinitely flexible, if you have the good one...the cheaper ones are not as flexible, nor as long lasting.
 
Anne


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## Quaverion

Thanks for the advice Anne. I also welcome you to the board, though it (sadly) is not mine.   You should start a thread in the Members Chat section to tell about yourself. Leopold says that the shoulder rest takes away about 1/3 of the overall tone and sound of the violin. However, I do think that shoulder rests might have evolved just a _little_ since his time.  Plus my new one is only 1 ounce and is made of wood, so I guess it will be very good. I know that Heifetz' master class was made to play without shoulder rests in the 70's and 80's.


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## Harvey

How much of an improvement would one expect to get by changing shoulder rests?
I haven't tried many other shoulder rests.
Right now I have this Artino that I got with my violin. I have nothing to say about it. It does what it's supposed to.


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## Quaverion

Harvey, after you have played for a little while and gotten more experience, you will start to notice many little things that improve your playing in little bits. Also, like I said before, the shoulder rest takes away 1/3 of the total sound (projection, tone, etc.) from the violin. That is bad, and I think Heifetz knew a little bit about the violin.


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## Harvey

> _Originally posted by Quaverion_@Sep 23 2004, 03:38 PM
> *the shoulder rest takes away 1/3 of the total sound (projection, tone, etc.) from the violin.
> [snapback]2090[/snapback]​*


Can you please post here what it says in your book about shoulder rests taking away 1/3 of the sound?

Also, I believe that I have played for at least a _little_ while, but I understood what you're getting at:
Almost everything on a violin influences the sound in some way. Now my question was, how significant is the influence of the shoulder rest compared to the other influences?


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## Quaverion

> _Originally posted by Harvey_@Sep 24 2004, 05:00 PM
> *Now my question was, how significant is the influence of the shoulder rest compared to the other influences?
> [snapback]2094[/snapback]​*


Everything matters, so you do not need to compare importance. I know what he said, but I will post it anyway just so I am one post closer to legendary viruoso. B)

Here:

_The second important point is this: avoid resting the violin on the shoulder or, vice versa, shoving the shoulder underneath the violin. The placing of a cushion beneath the back of the instrument, in order to lend a more secure support to the chin grip, should also be avoided. These are bad habits, which one from the very start should carefully avoid, since they not only spoil the violinists pose in general, but-and this is extremely important-*they make the player lose AT LEAST a third of the whole body of tone* which his violin-be it a fine or an indifferent instrument, a powerful or a weak one-is capable of producing._

There. Straight from the mouth (or pen) or Leopold Auer. Please take his word for it.


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## Harvey

Thank you.



> *avoid resting the violin on the shoulder or, vice versa, shoving the shoulder underneath the violin.*


So you shouldn't rest the violin on your shoulder. Then where do you put it? On your collarbone?



> *The placing of a cushion beneath the back of the instrument*


a *cushion*, not a shoulder rest.
So, I think what he meant was that cushions ruin the sound. I agree with this and 1/3 is a reasonable number for this.
But *shoulder rests* that only touch the edges of the instrument (where the ribs are perpendicular with the back); I find it hard to believe that it would take away 1/3 of the tone.

Edit: and if he did mean shoulder rests, he would have to back it up before I believe him.


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## Quaverion

Wow. Sorry if I sounded harsh. I was in a bit of a grumpy mood yesterday. I do know that Heifetz told his students that they should either learn to play w/o the shoulder rest or else drop out of his master class. Also, all of the great violinists I know do not use them. I would imagine that a cushion would take away much more than a rest, but imagine those soft rubber holders on the rest squeezing the sides of the instrument enough to hold them there. Also, extra force is added to reduce the sound when the player pushes their head into the chin rest, thus pushing more on the shoulder rest and having even less sound.

I usually just dig the tailpiece into the middle of my neck very hard.


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## max

> _Originally posted by Quaverion_@Sep 25 2004, 10:39 AM
> *I usually just dig the tailpiece into the middle of my neck very hard.
> [snapback]2099[/snapback]​*


Cool, Baroque style! Screw the shoulder and chin rest!


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## Harvey

> _Originally posted by max_@Sep 25 2004, 10:29 AM
> *Cool, Baroque style! Screw the shoulder and chin rest!
> [snapback]2101[/snapback]​*


...I think I'll take comfort over sound this time. :mellow:

and when I play baroque, my chin is on the left. (not that there's anything wrong with it being on the tailpiece, or on the right, or not touching)


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## killimengri

My little one has hated shoulder rests ever since she found her first violin (aged 3). Unfortunately, I don't play, so cannot help her, nor can we find for her a teacher ~ offers from Gypsy fiddlers in Moscow, Eire & Germany ~ not much help in UK! Are hard rests or cushions better? I have a variety (left behind after her violin teaching father left) & a variety of violin sizes....


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## Quaverion

Oh my dear lord!!!!!!! GYPSY FIDDLERS!!!!! AHHH!!!!!         

Please tell me you took their offer! Please! Gypsies are AWESOME!!!!! You MUST make one of them a teacher! I COMMAND you! That is my life's DREAM! I wish I could have bee brought up by Gypsy fiddlers! I am actually getting my left ear pierced soon in honour of them! I also wear many Gypsy-like clothes! Oh my god. Start a new thread under members chat and tell me all about them! I am on the verge of tears I am so excited. You must make one of them (possibly their king) her teacher, lest she will regret it for the rest of her life. Please. I beg of you.  

I am thinking about becoming a Gypsy if I can find a place with lots of them and if they will let me. Really.

About the shoulder rest; just train her not to use one. It is a very rare gift for your daughter to be so young and not want a shoulder rest at all. Do not make her use one. If there is anything I have learned from playing the violin, it is that originality is one of the greatest things in life. If one doesn't need or want to do something according to the rules, they do not have to.


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## killimengri

Hi Quaverion,
The Romani are great aren't they 
I could take them not up on their offers, no way I can afford the 'plane fares, but, godwilling, after my moving next year I'll try to get Annon up to the capital for the odd lesson with 1 of them! To make you feel even worse ~ she was "adopted" by Loyko himself (Sergei Erdenko) aged 4 ~ told he everyone that this little girl sleeping in his arms is his daughter! He is purebred (tatchey kaulo ratti Romano), [but we are only zingari], with 300 years of fiddle playing behind him! I'd love to see you in kit, there are pictures around with me in my 7 layers of skirts, jewellry, bare feet..............................
I know not how to start a new thread in here, maybe you could upon the receiving of this. I rewrote a trad Gypsy origin myth which I could send to you ~ learnt from Loyko.
I have my own Gypsy cob (Vanner in the US) & traditional vardo, with a hunting lurcher & cannis (hens).
There are Gypsies everywhere. A friend of mine (Gadzho) has spent most of his playing life with the Romali ~ he's a guitarist. We have many festivals here ~ see if you have the Ustiben celebration (April 8th in UK in London) ~ the Horse Fairs & a Gypsy Jazz festival.
My daughter is now 8 , with plenty of fiddles around her, but no teacher.


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## Quaverion

All I can say is that you have my dream life. I am completely and utterly speechless henceforth.


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## Nox

LOL...no you're not...


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## Quaverion

OK. The shoulder rest is AMAZING. I order all of you violinists out there to buy it ASAP. It is sooo much better. My 45 doller Kun flamed wooden shoulder rest with a very nice bag and brass holders feel like a piece of crap now! Really.

However, I am not using any shoulder rest any more. I am convinced I can hear a big change. You just have to get used to it. My neck doesn't hurt, and I've been doing it for about a month now. Just hold the violin/viola at a very high angle (not parallel to the ground as you were probably taught). The only thing is, I can't hold it as long because my very long arms get tired.


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## Anton

Look, personnally I know that a violin is not supposed to be held by your hands. IT MUST BE HELD BY YOUR NECK. So it depends on the size of your neck


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## Quaverion

People are allowed to play the violin anyway they want to. Unless we try new things that work, there will never be any progress. That is the way you were taught, but we aren't SUPPOSED to play it any way at all.


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## 009

I think the Kun Bravo is ok. It's the best shoulder rest.
U can try playing with a stuffed cotton pad. Some people ( actually those with short necks mostly ) can do without it... they like having their instruments closer. I think it does make some difference to the tone. But it's impossible to function without one for me. I can't even do a decent vibrato without the rest.


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## Nox

I like my shoulder pad (ShoulderPet)...works well with both the viola and the violin...no more bruising...and I won't be using the rests any more...I should try to sell them...

...some of discomfort, I'm convinced, is due to the Guanari-type chinrests (the over-the-neck style) I now have on both instruments...but whatever, the shoulder pad really does help...ESP. with the viola...


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## Elondra

I have been playing the violin(actually trying to!) for 3 months.I'd love to play without a shoulder rest but I find it impossible because I have a long neck


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## Quaverion

I have a very long neck as well. Try playing with the violin at different spots on the neck, and at different angles. Try holding the violin pointing up a little, instead of horizontal to the ground.


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## Elondra

I still can't do it. It digs into my shoulder.


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## Quaverion

Well, what I mean is, if you tilt it upwards and rest it on the middle of your neck, then it shouldn't. If that still doesn't work, then just rest it at an angle between that or your neck and shoulder blade. Because the shoulder blade is hard and not that much skin is above it, then it wouldn't dampen it at all.


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## Daniel

I think if you start with violin, it would be better WITH shoulder rest. Because it doesn't come from nowhere that it was invented. Later, if you want to play with the sound, you can play without one.


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## Elondra

Broke my shoulder rest during my lesson and I'm not going to buy one until January. I better get used to it.


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## Quaverion

Well, I am back to using a shoulder rest again. I love it, and I suggest that you get one asap.  Get the ultra-light shoulder rest from shar. A-W-E-S-O-M-E!!!!!!


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## Oneiros

I have tried playing viola without a shoulder rest, but since my neck is so long, the instrument just hangs down towards the ground, which is no good.

I am wondering if anyone has trouble with their chin-rests? Mine is quite uncomfortable, as it digs into my jawbone rather harshly.


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## World Violist

I started playing viola with a shoulder rest. Then, about a year later, it got stolen. I haven't used one since.


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## Woodley6453

I think that while it's got a lot to do with preference it has more to do with how you started. I was introduced to violin without the shoulder rest and I find it more comfortable to play without one. Though I keep a Kun Bravo just in case I'm ever very uncomfortable or in the mood to not strain my neck and shoulder too much. I've found that it disrupts my natural flow whilst playing, but that's just me.

But to answer the question, as has been said I don't think a shoulder rest is going to disrupt or absorb any more sound than your bare shoulder would.


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## music3

Shoulder rest for me is essential. Since I was in elementary, I have difficulty playing the violin. I cannot tuck the violin under my chin very well and sometimes it would slip as I cannot shift my fingers well. Not until someone lent me her shoulder rest and which helped me play well. Though I knew it limited the sounds that I produced. But everytime I would go to play the violin even just to practice, I can't stand without my shoulder rest especially with pieces having lots of shiftings. But now I'm trying to work it out not to use shoulder rest, even though it's hard for me. 
Could you please give me some advice? How much would it affect my playing?


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## Violin_Frenzy

Nox said:


> I did, on Monday, order a padded rest that sits over your shoulder...to try specifically with the viola...so I can stop using the dishcloth (which shifts and falls off all the time)...I didn't get around to rubber-banding a sponge onto it as suggested...that would work too...
> 
> ...I'll let you know how the padded rest works when I get it...it's here if anyone wants to look...
> 
> http://www.shoulderpet.com/ordering.htm


Sponge + Rubberband = Gay!

I have a Kun, it was $40. Worth Every penny. However it was like 1/4 the actual cost of my Violin. lol. Having said that, I'm pleased with it, it's a nice little instrument. I even currently am working on a Minuet for a Violin.


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## World Violist

I don't see why people make such a great deal about using shoulder-rests when obviously it's not doing anyone any good. I mean, if you compare the greats of today - Shaham, Vengerov, Mutter, Chung, Hahn - with those of yesterday - Heifetz, Menuhin, Oistrakh, Milstein, Neveu, et al. - I think many will find that yesterday's violinists were 1) generally far greater in technique, and 2) far more diverse than today's can ever hope to be. I think that a teacher's saying that one has to use a shoulder rest to play the violin/viola is both a ridiculous suggestion considering the above statements and an attempt to mass-produce students who all sound like the teacher, and are not really allowed to experiment, like yesterday's violinists were allowed to do a lot.


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## colin

I use a sponge and rubber band at the moment as I need the pennies, I am not gay but hold no prejudice.
on the tone side, the instrument sounds more vibrant with the sponge as opposed to no rest at all as I am not jamming the tailpeice end inbetween my chin and shoulder.
I have been looking at shoulder rests and quite like the look of a tido. but havent tried any yet.
has anybody tried one.


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