# There maybe more than 50% of 17th century music withheld



## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

The earlier page about Buxtehude from Wiki says there are more than 400 cantatas surviving in manuscripts, only 125 of them are accessible for many reasons(Maybe mostly because of clear attribution). The rest is supposedly under scholarly study and the process of attribution. But now the passage mentioning inaccessible works was omitted. While the attribution is not certain it is obviously not objective to call the these works as Buxtehudes, but we can be sure at least more works are still coming. The currently avaible 125 vocal pieces also constitute the whole recorded vocal works under the project of Opera Omnia(complete works) by Ton Koopman in 15 discs. Obviously the project of complete works is still far from complete.

The works from early music repertoire that are regularly performed are only a tiny part of the legacy survived. The complete edition of Antonio Vivaldis surviving work is still underway for the future decades to come. Maybe some surviving works will still go lost due to the slow progress of study and unforeseeable disasters. The huge early music heritage is still largely ignored just like in the past, not only that a good part of the early 18th century music is still ignored, also the situation of the revival of music especially of 17th century and earlier centuries is not very optimistic as a matter of fact.


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

Ariasexta said:


> The huge early music heritage is still largely ignored just like in the past, not only that a good part of the early 18th century music is still ignored, also the situation of the revival of music especially of 17th century and earlier centuries is not very optimistic as a matter of fact.


this is very true. 
There is one good tendency : in Europe early music is performed. But how long this trend is going to continue, no one knows. 
On the whole this situation is very similar to one of languages. We know that more and more languages are disappearing and in some cases not due to natural reasons, but they are eliminated deliberately , that is what happened with Turkish I mean real one with their own alphabet, not the one they use now, another very well known example is of Indonesia - they just created a new language several decades ago, there are many other examples. Why is that? Because if people are deprived of access to the knowledge of their own real languages, they are deprived of knowledge of their history and heritage as they hardly can read old documents which are preserved in archives ( provided that archives still exist ). The same with music : the more often it's performed, the better it's preserved, the more people are aware of their past and cultural tradition and vice versa.

It's all like a story of "Fahrenheit 451" by R. Bradbury and it's not that much of exaggeration in this novel as some optimists might think....


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

helenora said:


> this is very true.
> There is one good tendency : in Europe early music is performed. But how long this trend is going to continue, no one knows.
> On the whole this situation is very similar to one of languages. We know that more and more languages are disappearing and in some cases not due to natural reasons, but they are eliminated deliberately , that is what happened with Turkish I mean real one with their own alphabet, not the one they use now, another very well known example is of Indonesia - they just created a new language several decades ago, there are many other examples. Why is that? Because if people are deprived of access to the knowledge of their own real languages, they are deprived of knowledge of their history and heritage as they hardly can read old documents which are preserved in archives ( provided that archives still exist ). The same with music : the more often it's performed, the better it's preserved, the more people are aware of their past and cultural tradition and vice versa.
> 
> It's all like a story of "Fahrenheit 451" by R. Bradbury and it's not that much of exaggeration in this novel as some optimists might think....


I guess it must have to do with the lack of financing, scholars would not continue the work untill someone give them enough money for the trip between libraries,also the private owners of manuscripts would not allow copy or even microfilming their music untill they get their money. If the situation continue, more music will go lost without ever see the daylight even in our own age of information. We store porn, junk music, violent videogames in hightec storage discs, but not classical music!!

Colonialism did leave some good aspects, roman letters are concise and easy to use otherwise southeast asian languages could be using hindi or japanese or arabian letters like Thai language. It was their choice to use roman letters instead. Hindi and arabic languages affect modernization. Their religious heritage is of the major value, many are still extent. Hindi hymns, buddhist hymns etc,,a lot is still locked behind cursed doors.


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

Ariasexta said:


> Colonialism did leave some good aspects, roman letters are concise and easy to use otherwise southeast asian languages could be using hindi or japanese or arabian letters like Thai language. It was their choice to use roman letters instead. Hindi and arabic languages affect modernization. Their religious heritage is of the major value, many are still extent. Hindi hymns, buddhist hymns etc,,a lot is still locked behind cursed doors.


well, I understand how practical roman letters and all the rest, still I believe all these nations that have their own way of writing should preserve it and in no way to exchange their own letters into roman, just for the sake of practical reasons as they are "concise and easy". So I can't agree about it as with the loss of their authentic script nations lose part of their history and identity as well......

sorry for off topic.


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

Never mind continental Europe. Ireland had exactly the same problem. As a language with a wide number of dialects and an equally wide range of spellings, the government in the 1950s introduced An Caighdeán Oifigiúil (the Official Standard). By 1965 speakers in the Dáil regretted that those taught Irish in the traditional Gaelic script (the Cló Gaedhealach) over the previous decades were not helped by the recent change to the Latin script, the Cló Romhánach. However, there is a widespread movement to preserve Irsih Traditional music.

OK Back to the 17th Century. The English side of things seems to be fairly well documented as we move from Dowland and Byrd through Peter Phillips (linked with Sweelinck) through to William Lawes, Christopher Simpson and on to John Blow. The scene in the 1660s with Purcell and Bannister and the publisher Playford is equally well documented. It's interesting that the original Palladian Ensemble met during their studies at the Guildhall School of Music and Drama (London) where they specialised in virtuoso chamber music of the baroque period. Maybe things are better in Britain.

When it comes to 18th Century Scotland, there is a lot of good music now emerging and people are examining the links between the art tradition and the folk style. It's not just in Scotland, there's an Australian group - Evergreen Ensemble - specialising in Scottish Baroque.

To some extent, the visibility of the music depends on your local scene. We're lucky because we have a good local group who specialise in Baroque - to some extent the more obscure the better. They bring up all sorts of artists and also play in a variety of ensembles so we can keep in touch.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

helenora said:


> well, I understand how practical roman letters and all the rest, still I believe all these nations that have their own way of writing should preserve it and in no way to exchange their own letters into roman, just for the sake of practical reasons as they are "concise and easy". So I can't agree about it as with the loss of their authentic script nations lose part of their history and identity as well......
> 
> sorry for off topic.


Linguistic is not off-topic, language is the heart of vocal music, baroque music started by serving the text above polyphonic rules (Practica Secunda).https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prima_pratica

My interest in early music is inseparable from the interest in literature.

Southeast asian scripts are monopolized by hindi, chinese, japanese, arabic languages. Thai language is a good example, since ancient times, regional languages were all spelled in the characters from mentioned 4 major languages. Some just feel uncomfortable to continue to be monopolized in written culture so they switched to roman letters. But in your sense, a totally unique language has to use a unique form of script, it means to creat a new written language for them, having no historical depth. Like Korean, Burmese etc, they still spell the name of modern objects in imitation of their English names. Korean call computer as computa, thai also call computer as compiute..But in chinese we call Diannao, literally electronic brain. Just like amerindians using spanish, as a colonial legacy, roman letters have both good and bad aspects, but not bad enough to call it destroying local cultures. The occasional library fire is more murderous to culture. If to preserve pagan relics is a good thing, the west has done a good job.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

Taggart said:


> Never mind continental Europe. Ireland had exactly the same problem. As a language with a wide number of dialects and an equally wide range of spellings, the government in the 1950s introduced An Caighdeán Oifigiúil (the Official Standard). By 1965 speakers in the Dáil regretted that those taught Irish in the traditional Gaelic script (the Cló Gaedhealach) over the previous decades were not helped by the recent change to the Latin script, the Cló Romhánach. However, there is a widespread movement to preserve Irsih Traditional music.
> 
> OK Back to the 17th Century. The English side of things seems to be fairly well documented as we move from Dowland and Byrd through Peter Phillips (linked with Sweelinck) through to William Lawes, Christopher Simpson and on to John Blow. The scene in the 1660s with Purcell and Bannister and the publisher Playford is equally well documented. It's interesting that the original Palladian Ensemble met during their studies at the Guildhall School of Music and Drama (London) where they specialised in virtuoso chamber music of the baroque period. Maybe things are better in Britain.
> 
> ...


All comments on linguistic and literature are welcomed, they are not off-topic. It will be good to preserve dialect and regional cultural uniqueness. However, it is more important to preserve historical records, manuscripts than to creat or adopt a new script. Losing historical depth in written heritage will simply kill the whole culture.

Scotland have a lot of traditional tunes since Renaissance, like ballards about Robinhood, and lute transcriptions of ballards etc.
English Renaissance music is quite different from the continent, expressive and melodious. Sweelinck himself was influenced by english virginalists. It is sad the Cromwells protectorate and quakers stifled musical life at the time.

The repertoire of the period is so huge a few ensemble can not help but concentrate on a few composers, it will be good to have some ensemble dedicated to scattered or even anonymous compositions, where more traditional and folk music maybe contained.


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

> roman letters have both good and bad aspects, but not bad enough to call it destroying local cultures.


I didn't say that it IS Latin script applied which destroys culture. Instead what I say is that change in a language especially written (because has to do with a preservation of a culture through written information) when its own authentic script is substituted with a new one which they think corresponds better to a new age invariably leads to an oblivion . People have no keys any more to access their culture. Such a substitution doesn't destroy the culture, it simply makes it nonexistent. There are documents, there is everything but people are deprived of the "keys" by such keys I mean a language to unlock the door into their historical and cultural heritage.



> But in your sense, a totally unique language has to use a unique form of script, it means to create a new written language for them, having no historical depth


I didn't say that. I mean I didn't say that every unique language has to have a new script. There are groups of languages with the same script . and I haven't mentioned a creation of a new script for any new language with no historical depth. That's what they do like creating a totally artificial Bahasa in Indonesia and written in Latin which has NO historical roots. And it's not just this language , it's simply a commonly known example from the middle of 20th century. Even as you mention Thai, I understand they adopt English words and mutate them , it's a common phenomenon, but even Thais , they had and have a language Pali and all their old texts especially related to Theravada Buddhism are written, but who knows it? Even monks don't know it, they simply chant it while performing traditional rituals and wisdom preserved in this language is hidden from the majority, very few can and allowed to study it deeply at the University level and by the way they are not ordinary people.

This time I think I really digress


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

helenora said:


> I didn't say that it IS Latin script applied which destroys culture. Instead what I say is that change in a language especially written (because has to do with a preservation of a culture through written information) when its own authentic script is substituted with a new one which they think corresponds better to a new age invariably leads to an oblivion . People have no keys any more to access their culture. Such a substitution doesn't destroy the culture, it simply makes it nonexistent. There are documents, there is everything but people are deprived of the "keys" by such keys I mean a language to unlock the door into their historical and cultural heritage.
> 
> I didn't say that. I mean I didn't say that every unique language has to have a new script. There are groups of languages with the same script . and I haven't mentioned a creation of a new script for any new language with no historical depth. That's what they do like creating a totally artificial Bahasa in Indonesia and written in Latin which has NO historical roots. And it's not just this language , it's simply a commonly known example from the middle of 20th century. Even as you mention Thai, I understand they adopt English words and mutate them , it's a common phenomenon, but even Thais , they had and have a language Pali and all their old texts especially related to Theravada Buddhism are written, but who knows it? Even monks don't know it, they simply chant it while performing traditional rituals and wisdom preserved in this language is hidden from the majority, very few can and allowed to study it deeply at the University level and by the way they are not ordinary people.
> 
> This time I think I really digress


The elimination of culture has to do with political aggression more than anything else. Romans inherited greek civilization in spite of having massacred athenians after conquest. The romans admired the greeks and learned a lot from them. But in modrn age, everything is measured by popularity or materialistic merits, we no longer value old heritage. And the political agendas further complicated the situation by destroying local cultural identities through physical elimination of documents, historical records, which may involved musical materials. Major library destructions in Europe all involved in political conflicts. It may be no big problem if there will be no destruction of historical relics even under adopting a new official language. In some sense, historical relics are immeasurable treasures, including antique musical scores. For example, if without the sculptures, greek dramas, what is left of the hellenic civilization?

Indonesia and Vietnam were colonized, their modern history was influenced by modernization and capitalization under western systems. It was an easy choice to use latin letters to develop into the western system, making communication, education more accessible. It was inevitable. But their religious heritage is not destroyed, India, Indonesia, latinization did not change their religion, their hymns. It is still an achievement that many latin american countries still have great literature, it is already making their own unique history. The cultural vitality will creat and enable a nation to preserve their own cultural identity, political powers will never help in such goal. I still feel it was ok to colonize, even though the nazis deny colonialism, their plan for the russians are still a type of colonialism. China criticizes western politics while it sends huge tax money to the important officials of other countries to creat corruption. Politics is about doublestandard. Colonialism is a passage of history that has a great cultural significance in terms of the classical antiquity, colonialism is not entirely a new thing. Current political interests are uglier. Humanity has been closely related in some secret way just like today in remote pass, colonialism is likely a repetition of the forgotten past, it will be proven is near future.

There are maybe some ancient symbolisms that you may mistake for language, those things were used in ancient evil rituals. Those things barely worth preservation. People never really forget about evil, it is the good cultural heritage that need to be preserved.


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

Ariasexta said:


> There are maybe some ancient symbolisms that you may mistake for language, those things were used in ancient evil rituals. Those things barely worth preservation. People never really forget about evil, it is the good cultural heritage that need to be preserved.


Please, do elaborate on what you mean by symbolism which I mistake for a language.
and if we want to continue a discussion we must probably define which cultures and countries precisely we will talk about otherwise we will get lost in trying to assume what each other means and it will lead to a misunderstanding. For sure I can't speak about any countries, but for those which I used to live and used as examples to illustrate my ideas how an invention of a new language might affect them I'm ready to discuss.

As for political agendas playing a big part in destroying countries heritage I do agree with you.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

helenora said:


> Please, do elaborate on what you mean by symbolism which I mistake for a language.
> and if we want to continue a discussion we must probably define which cultures and countries precisely we will talk about otherwise we will get lost in trying to assume what each other means and it will lead to a misunderstanding. For sure I can't speak about any countries, but for those which I used to live and used as examples to illustrate my ideas how an invention of a new language might affect them I'm ready to discuss.
> 
> As for political agendas playing a big part in destroying countries heritage I do agree with you.


For preservationists, ancient cults are highly evaluated and there is a consensus is to protect them, it will be a mater of time to touch ancient spiritualism if discussion about cultural preservation continues. I feel it was natural to be related to this topic.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Ariasexta said:


> I guess it must have to do with the lack of financing, scholars would not continue the work untill someone give them enough money for the trip between libraries,also the private owners of manuscripts would not allow copy or even microfilming their music untill they get their money. If the situation continue, more music will go lost without ever see the daylight even in our own age of information. We store porn, junk music, violent videogames in hightec storage discs, but not classical music!!
> 
> Colonialism did leave some good aspects, roman letters are concise and easy to use otherwise southeast asian languages could be using hindi or japanese or arabian letters like Thai language. It was their choice to use roman letters instead. Hindi and arabic languages affect modernization. Their religious heritage is of the major value, many are still extent. Hindi hymns, buddhist hymns etc,,a lot is still locked behind cursed doors.


Yes but disc gets obsolete with later technology or just rust away. Scores for early music is written on high quality paper that can last for several hundreds of years. I am more worried about.
Also in the west many people can´t read old texts much is written in latin and also in a fraktur style that is easy to read in printed form but hand written fraktur is very difficult to read.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

helenora said:


> Please, do elaborate on what you mean by symbolism which I mistake for a language.
> and if we want to continue a discussion we must probably define which cultures and countries precisely we will talk about otherwise we will get lost in trying to assume what each other means and it will lead to a misunderstanding. For sure I can't speak about any countries, but for those which I used to live and used as examples to illustrate my ideas how an invention of a new language might affect them I'm ready to discuss.
> 
> As for political agendas playing a big part in destroying countries heritage I do agree with you.


I mean in the face of european humanist heritage, it will be OK to let some of the ancient cultic heritage to be forgotten. Even though these cultic heritage may contribute to some ethnic identities. For example, the nordic runic texts and italian Renaissance manuscripts, which to be more evaluated, the answer is clear. And the case of China, majority people consider Confucius as a symbolic icon of chinese cultural identity, and chinese government sponsors the spread of Confucianism oversea, while some unclean agendas maybe hidden behind. Let alone some pagan movements in the west, and people who target european humanist arts for destruction. Humanism may seem forcing itse way to monopolize its former colonies, but from some deeper historical context, cultural influence had been mutual.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius_Institute

Many people do not know, including majority chinese people, Confucius is more than a set of philosophy, but a cultic tradtion dedicated to worship privileged few. Confucianism in ancient times was taught along with Yi Ching, a collection of some cultic doctrines.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

Sloe said:


> Yes but disc gets obsolete with later technology or just rust away. Scores for early music is written on high quality paper that can last for several hundreds of years. I am more worried about.
> Also in the west many people can´t read old texts much is written in latin and also in a fraktur style that is easy to read in printed form but hand written fraktur is very difficult to read.


It will be too sad if in thousand years,if the only written documents survive were dogmatic and pedagogic materials, like that of Hammurabis code. It is more important to preserve greek sculptures, ancient music, dramas, great literatures than junks from modern New Age movements. Raw materials sometimes can be of extremely great value, now a single page of chinese calligraphy dating from 900AD is estimated as several billion dollars. The ancient examplars of chinese calligraphy is usually evaluated word by word, each word could be millions of dollars. No joke, with musical notes on ancient papers, is no much different than that ancient chinese calligraphy.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

It is OK to be fanatic about early music, why be shy about it. Only fanaticism can creat really great works. Being honest I cannot believe people can enjoy some modern compositions, is life too comfortable to need some tortures? I tried to listen to Star Trek symphonies as a elementary school kid, I found it blank. I never succeeded in enjoying modern symphonies after so many years immersing in all kinds of music. Like Yanni, all most all japanese, european, american composers of modern ages symphonies fail to interest me a little bit. However, electronic music has many remarkable creations. Like Sakuraba Motoi, whose music I really aappreciate.


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

Ariasexta said:


> Scotland have a lot of traditional tunes since Renaissance, like ballards about Robinhood, and lute transcriptions of ballards etc.
> English Renaissance music is quite different from the continent, expressive and melodious. Sweelinck himself was influenced by english virginalists. It is sad the Cromwells protectorate and quakers stifled musical life at the time.
> 
> The repertoire of the period is so huge a few ensemble can not help but concentrate on a few composers, it will be good to have some ensemble dedicated to scattered or even anonymous compositions, where more traditional and folk music maybe contained.


Cromwell didn't entirely stifle music. He employed some of Charles I's musicans - for example John Kingston who was organist to the Protector and instructed his daughter in music. Some even claim that Kingston taught Dr Blow but that is doubtful.

The problem is much more with the difference between Calvinist and Lutheran styles. The Calvinist style preferred minimal music in church and that mainly psalms or pieces based on Bible texts. The Scots had a very limited psalter and little musical education through their churches. They lacked anybody of the stature of Sweelinck to develop their music. The English being more of a Luther trend carried on music in church throughout the 16th and 17th centuries. Almost every major composer (apart from the Catholics - Dowland, Phillips, Wilbye) seems to have started as a chorister and moved on to become an organist. It is this depth of musical experience and continuity that enlivens English Baroque.

Much of what we call traditional or folk music has been collected by mainstream composers and adapted by them. Much Scots traditional music dates from 18th century collections by composers such as Oswald (Curious Collection of Scottish Songs (1740) )


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Ariasexta said:


> It will be too sad if in thousand years,if the only written documents survive were dogmatic and pedagogic materials, like that of Hammurabis code. It is more important to preserve greek sculptures, ancient music, dramas, great literatures than junks from modern New Age movements. Raw materials sometimes can be of extremely great value, now a single page of chinese calligraphy dating from 900AD is estimated as several billion dollars. The ancient examplars of chinese calligraphy is usually evaluated word by word, each word could be millions of dollars. No joke, with musical notes on ancient papers, is no much different than that ancient chinese calligraphy.


I just wanted to point out that computer disks or whatever is not a good way to preserve documents unless you will remove them to a new form each 5-10 years. Think of floppy disks.


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