# Tchaikovsky's violin concerto, Let's talk about it!



## Tarneem (Jan 3, 2022)

Previously when I listen to the concerto, I simply don't get it. But when I read the biography of Tchaikovsky I realized that this piece could be an eternal scream. The violin is anxious and confused while the orchestra is cheerful. and when the violin attempt to speak up, the orchestra silence it . I find this contrast super tragic 

for you, what story does this concerto try to tell? and who is your favorite performer or recording? I listened to Joshua Bell but his performance has a lot of mistakes


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

I've never thought it had a story, nor do I think the violin is anxious or confused...a bit melancholy in the second movement, but pretty joyful for the rest. Joshua Bell has mistakes? I'll have to grab the score and give it a listen again. I don't remember anything out of whack in that recording.

I have a gnarly problem with recordings: I, like most everyone else, learned this concert and imprinted with the traditional way of playing it for 100 years or so: with many, many, many cuts in the finale. That was the work of Leopold Auer. Then suddenly around 1970 or so there were a couple of recordings that went back to Tchaikovsky's original uncut version. Pinchas Zuckerman made the recording I picked up and it was shocking at first compared to what had been my first version: Oistrakh and Ormandy. The purist in me says play what the composer wrote! But Auer's editing does make the finale flow more naturally and having heard it so long with the cuts even today I find the original version somewhat jolting. So, my favorite recordings: in Auer's edition that old Oistrakh/Ormandy version is still the best and I've heard dozens. For the complete, original it's an older one on Decca: Boris Belkin with Ashkenazy and the Philharmonia.


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

When I listen to this concerto, I don't hear any screaming or confusion on either the violin's or orchestra's part. I hear absolutely gorgeous beautiful music!


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

For me the Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto is on the number one spot, shared with the Sibelius Violin Concerto.

Even surpassing Beethoven, Mendelssohn and Brahms. And that says a lot.

The first movement is a magnificently skilful in how it lets the great "Fanfare Theme" to evolve, little by little. Tchaikovsky hints at the grande theme from the very beginning and when the orchestra tutti finally hits, it is gorgeous.

Violin also blends better with the orchestra of the 19th century than the piano. That is why I highly prefer the violin concerto to the piano concertos. (I really do not care for piano concertos later than Beethoven´s fourth. Mozart is the pinnacle of Piano Concertos. )


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

_cough_ Hanslick _cough_
Damn that cold.


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## Otis B. Driftwood (4 mo ago)

I like the recording by Vadim Gluzman, good pairing too;








Tchaikovsky & Glazunov - Violin Concertos


Tchaikovsky & Glazunov - Violin Concertos. BIS: BISSACD1432. Buy SACD or download online. Vadim Gluzman (violin) Bergen Philharmonic Orchestra, Andrew Litton



www.prestomusic.com


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

RobertJTh said:


> _cough_ Hanslick _cough_


I had misunderstood Hanslick's claim about "music that stinks" for many years because I had not had the context. My association, mainly for the first two movements was an overdose of cheap perfume, sickly sweet etc. But Hanslick mainly referred to the finale he saw as a rough and rural Russian feast stinking of garlic and cheap booze...
For years I found the piece quite repulsive and I don't listen to it frequently now although I have come to appreciate it more (the finale Hanslick disliked is good fun and might be my favorite part). My favorite recording is live with Repin/Gergiev (coupled with Miaskovsky). They give both the more symphonic nature of the first movement its due and the showy virtuosity. It's uncut like most more recent recordings are although I am not much bothered by the slight cuts (usually of repetitive sections) of older recordings. (AFAIK the Auer edition does not only have cuts but also beefed up some solos to make them even more dazzling.)

FWIW, I find the Sibelius concerto also a mixed bag. It's not repulsive but becomes rather trite and a bit boring after the supremely atmospheric first ca. 3 min.


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## Chilham (Jun 18, 2020)

My favourite Tchaikovsky piece, and my favourite violin concerto. Viktoria Mullova nails it for me. I enjoy Johan Dalene too.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Incidentally there's an old thread with stacks of recommendations linked below.









Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto - Recommendations


Hi, I'm trying to get into Tchaikovsky's Violin Concerto. I have a version played by Nigel Kennedy. I like the piece, but it doesn't wow me as much as I feel it should. It feels like it's lacking impact in some way. Are there other versions you would suggest? I'm thinking about Arthur Grumiaux...




www.talkclassical.com


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Kreisler jr said:


> My association, mainly for the first two movements was an overdose of cheap perfume, sickly sweet etc.


Just curious -- do you think Tchaikovsky does not show much melodic or rhythmic skills in the first two movements? I am of the opinion that for example Mahler could not have composed either of the movements even if he had tried his very best.


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

Waehnen said:


> I am of the opinion that for example Mahler could not have composed either of the movements even if he had tried his very best.


If you substitute would for could in your comment I might be able to agree with you - given that Mahler is a significantly different composer to Tchaikovsky, why would he try to compose in Tchaikovsky's style. The skills you suggest Mahler lacks may well be skills he possessed but simply chose to proceed in another way. 
At this point in time it is hard to ascertain if that is the case - unless of course someone does have some such knowledge.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Malx said:


> If you substitute would for could in your comment I might be able to agree with you - given that Mahler is a significantly different composer to Tchaikovsky, why would he try to compose in Tchaikovsky's style. The skills you suggest Mahler lacks may well be skills he possessed but simply chose to proceed in another way.
> At this point in time it is hard to ascertain if that is the case - unless of course someone does have some such knowledge.


I do not believe for one second that Mahler was as great in melodies and rhythms as Tchaikovsky -- I am also sure not many others believe it either, if they are being honest about it.

(Yet, Mahler still managed to compose some great symphonies despite his inability to create high quality and high energy melodies and rhythms. There is no doubt about the greatness of some of his symphonies, like the 2nd, 3rd and the 9th. All of the symphonies are at least good although there are some problems in overt repetition and circulation of similar material and musical building blocks in symphonies 5-8.)


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I cannot imagine a concerto from Mahler at all. His music is hardly the proper comparison, rather Beethoven, Mendelssohn, Brahms, maybe also Saint-Saens or Bruch.
(I never really understand what "great in melody/rhythm or some other isolated aspect is supposed to mean. In any case, it does not mean much for my enjoyment or appreciation of music as this always depends on the whole. FWIW I don't know anything by Tchaikovsky that would have an otherworldly melody and mood as "Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen", even at his best (like the finale of the 6th symphony) he seems to be going for crass and "cheap" theatre effects compared to a song like that.)

As I said, I find it a bit unfair now and have a more balanced opinion but this concerto could make me almost physically uncomfortable, like having eaten too many sweets (I still feel like that about the Rococo cello variations). I didn't even need to hear it; evoking the tunes and sounds was enough...
I generally find concertos between Beethoven and Prokofiev often problematic. It was very difficult for composers to find a successful compromise between the more symphonic demands (or just general musical coherence) and the virtuoso display. The most seamless solution of all for me is probably the Mendelssohn VC. (I prefer Brahms' concertos but they are certainly "erring" towards the symphonic side.)

While I think that the 1st mvt. of the Tchaikovsky is also a pretty successful fusion of the symphonic and virtuoso demands, there is a bit too much virtuoso fireworks for my taste. But the problem was not that but the sweet sentimentality of the first two movements. Although the bflat minor piano concerto is not as "seamless" in the first movement, it's never as "sickly sweet".


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Kreisler jr said:


> I cannot imagine a concerto from Mahler at all. His music is hardly the proper comparison, rather Beethoven, Mendelssohn, Brahms, maybe also Saint-Saens or Bruch.
> (I never really understand what "great in melody/rhythm or some other isolated aspect is supposed to mean. In any case, it does not mean much for my enjoyment or appreciation of music as this always depends on the whole. FWIW I don't know anything by Tchaikovsky that would have an otherworldly melody and mood as "Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen", even at his best (like the finale of the 6th symphony) he seems to be going for crass and "cheap" theatre effects compared to a song like that.)
> 
> As I said, I find it a bit unfair now and have a more balanced opinion but this concerto could make me almost physically uncomfortable, like having eaten too many sweets (I still feel like that about the Rococo cello variations). I didn't even need to hear it; evoking the tunes and sounds was enough...
> ...


Thanks for the recommendation. I find the song excellent in harmonies, orchestration and atmosphere. But melodically and rhythmically there is not much to it. Harmonies, orchestration and the atmosphere quite simply are more important to Mahler than melodies and rhythms. I believe that is due to him compensating the lack of inborn melodic and rhythmic talent.

Because there truly are no unique melodies or rhythms here, this song sounds like the Andante from the 6th Symphony and the finale of the 3rd, and the slow movement of the 4th, and the slow atmospheric music from the 2nd before the Finale choirs. You must get what I mean?

Well done, Mahler, still!







Tchaikovsky was by far the greater melodist and rhythmicist of the two. Mahler was the greater symphonist, though. The melodic and rhythmic genius of Tchaikovsky can be witnessed in abundance in this Violin Concerto. I cannot listen to it too often because the material is very rich indeed. Still, absolutely brilliant!


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## golfer72 (Jan 27, 2018)

Malx said:


> If you substitute would for could in your comment I might be able to agree with you - given that Mahler is a significantly different composer to Tchaikovsky, why would he try to compose in Tchaikovsky's style. The skills you suggest Mahler lacks may well be skills he possessed but simply chose to proceed in another way.
> At this point in time it is hard to ascertain if that is the case - unless of course someone does have some such knowledge.


Waehnen seems obsessed with criticizing Mahler. This thread was about Tchaikovsky Cto and he somehow manages to get the convo over to Mahler? Getting tiresome actually.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I never listen to Tchaikovsky's violin concerto unless it's included in a TC game. Yes, the man was a great melodist, but what he does with those melodies irritates me - overblown and histrionic.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Actually, one point I don't like about the 1st movement of the Tchaikovsky is that the "triumphal full orchestra polonaise" version of the main theme occurs only A SINGLE TIME (or maybe twice). 
If you have such a great tune, please give us the best version not ONLY ONCE. Sure, it's integrated into a developmental arch, so structurally this is probably preferable to the bflat minor PC with the "big tune" occurring twice at the beginning and then NEVER AGAIN...
Edit: There are a few other pieces where I feel a bit like that but in these cases the composers are not known for using melodies for overblown and cheap effects 
One that comes to mind is the 2nd? theme in the 1st mvmt. of Brahms op.25 piano quartet. This occurs only once in an uplifting major version, the other times it is a downcast minor variant and I really miss the other form although I understand why Brahms couldn't do it within his "logic" for that movement.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

golfer72 said:


> Waehnen seems obsessed with criticizing Mahler. This thread was about Tchaikovsky Cto and he somehow manages to get the convo over to Mahler? Getting tiresome actually.


I will try to avoid it in the future. Nevertheless, I think I had a good point in emphasising the melodic and rhythmic genius of Tchaikovsky to Mahler fans, through comparison. The comparison brought some depth to the conversation.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

I love this concerto. First saw it performed when we were on holiday in Llandudno many years ago. Cannot remember who performed it (if anyone was at that concert, they performed Dvorak as well please tell me who it was)but loved it ever since.


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

I've recently come across this live recording by Julia Fischer which impressed me.


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

Kreisler jr said:


> Actually, one point I don't like about the 1st movement of the Tchaikovsky is that the "triumphal full orchestra polonaise" version of the main theme occurs only A SINGLE TIME (or maybe twice).
> If you have such a great tune, please give us the best version not ONLY ONCE. Sure, it's integrated into a developmental arch, so structurally this is probably preferable to the bflat minor PC with the "big tune" occurring twice at the beginning and then NEVER AGAIN...
> Edit: There are a few other pieces where I feel a bit like that but in these cases the composers are not known for using melodies for overblown and cheap effects
> One that comes to mind is the 2nd? theme in the 1st mvmt. of Brahms op.25 piano quartet. This occurs only once in an uplifting major version, the other times it is a downcast minor variant and I really miss the other form although I understand why Brahms couldn't do it within his "logic" for that movement.


It occurs twice, but the second time it finishes a bit differently. I don’t really mind that, I like when something I really like occurs sparingly so that when it does it’s extra special, otherwise it can become repetitive quickly. My main gripe with the first movement of the Tchaikovsky violin concerto is that all the fiddling before the big moment is repeated again after the big moment but higher and in a different key. Like the same 3 minutes or so. I still love this concerto though


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