# Zehetmair Conducts Brahms



## Gray Bean (May 13, 2020)

I just got the new cycle from Claves: Brahms: The Symphonies, Thomas Zehetmair/Musikkollegium Winterthur. I’m listening through it now. I can’t decide whether I like it or not! If you’ve heard it, what is your opinion? Do you enjoy small orchestra Brahms? Are there any chamber sets you would recommend?


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Gray Bean said:


> I just got the new cycle from Claves: Brahms: The Symphonies, Thomas Zehetmair/Musikkollegium Winterthur. I'm listening through it now. I can't decide whether I like it or not! If you've heard it, what is your opinion? Do you enjoy small orchestra Brahms? Are there any chamber sets you would recommend?


You'll get very polarized opinions here, is my guess. I heard someone claim this recording literally could only have been made by someone who hates Brahms, calling it anti-music, etc.( Why someone would put so much effort into something they hate was left unanswered.) And there were people who were very excited about Zehetmair's Brahms.

I think they're excellent and actually pretty mainstream performances. In fact, I feel that they are much more normal than the "hates Brahms" claim would suggest. If you or someone really wants to hear what Brahms sounds like if it's played by someone who hates it, these are _not_ the recordings to choose. They are in the fleet and rhythmic camp, but there's plenty of very normal rubato in the usual places and so on. Note that the "fleet and rhythmic" (or "Classical" if you will) idea of Brahms is not a _new_ interpretation, not by any means. There was been such a tradition literally extending back to Brahms himself.

For me, the Zehetmair Brahms recordings are not my favorite, but I'm certainly glad I heard them. For the "smaller orchestra" Brahms interpretation, I simply have others I like a little better.


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## D Smith (Sep 13, 2014)

I found them underpowered and a bit facile in places, but well performed mostly. Not terrible, but with so many excellent Brahms sets available, it's doubtful I'll return to this one much.


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## Gray Bean (May 13, 2020)

For some reason, I was expecting clipped, vibrato-free performances, which these are not. And yes, the Meiningen Orchestra was a favorite of Brahms and it was evidently smaller. I can think of three chamber orchestra cycles off the top of my head: Mackerras, Ticciati and Berglund. I don’t have them. For some reason, I’ve never been interested in hearing small orchestra Brahms. But maybe I should audition them as well.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

An argument in favor of smaller orchestra Brahms is that it makes it easier to hear the often very interesting, complex, and expressive counterpoint in the woodwinds. In many (perhaps most but not all) big orchestra Brahms recordings, these inner details are totally swamped.

Obviously, if you want Brahms rich and plush, mainly about the strings, and don't care about woodwinds, counterpoint, or clean rhythmic detail, these smaller orchestra recordings will have little appeal.

And to be fair, it's the case that a big orchestra doesn't _necessarily_ mean those details are inaudible or missing, but they commonly are.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Gray Bean said:


> For some reason, I was expecting clipped, vibrato-free performances, which these are not. And yes, the Meiningen Orchestra was a favorite of Brahms and it was evidently smaller. I can think of three chamber orchestra cycles off the top of my head: Mackerras, Ticciati and Berglund. I don't have them. For some reason, I've never been interested in hearing small orchestra Brahms. But maybe I should audition them as well.


You should. They all having something interesting to say. I love Zehetmair's Brahms. It's not rushed or vibrato-less. Whether people like the smaller forces is down to personal opinion and I get that but to put it down without proper listening is pointless. Of the sets you mentioned, Gray Bean, Ticciati is possibly a little weaker in Brahms than the others but you should listen to Ticciati's Schumann cycle. That's something far more special.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Gray Bean said:


> I just got the new cycle from Claves: Brahms: The Symphonies, Thomas Zehetmair/Musikkollegium Winterthur. I'm listening through it now. I can't decide whether I like it or not! If you've heard it, what is your opinion? Do you enjoy small orchestra Brahms? Are there any chamber sets you would recommend?


I don't like it at all. I found it to be brazenly unmusical, cutting phrases short, barreling through transitions. The tempos are very metrical, and there is no tone coloring. Usually, I will at least listen through the entire recording, but this set was like nails on a chalkboard, so I only made it through the 1st and three movements of the 3rd.


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## Guest (Jun 24, 2020)

Knorf said:


> An argument in favor of smaller orchestra Brahms is that it makes it easier to hear the often very interesting, complex, and expressive counterpoint in the woodwinds. In many (perhaps most but not all) big orchestra Brahms recordings, these inner details are totally swamped.
> 
> Obviously, if you want Brahms rich and plush, mainly about the strings, and don't care about woodwinds, counterpoint, or clean rhythmic detail, these smaller orchestra recordings will have little appeal.
> 
> And to be fair, it's the case that a big orchestra doesn't _necessarily_ mean those details are inaudible or missing, but they commonly are.


There are many way to perform Brahms, and the small ensemble recordings are very attractive to me. I've enjoyed Mackerras greatly and I have recently acquired the Zehetmair. Sometimes I am in a mood for Karajan's sensuous Berlin Philharmonic strings, and sometimes I am in a mood for intricacies of woodwind voice leading, or anything in between.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

I only listened to parts of #4....didn't care much for it....it sounds underpowered, the climaxes lacking, almost wimpy...I didn't care for the woodwind sound....although it is small orchestra, the clarity was not so good, the lower woodwinds kind of mushed together, with a rather tubby, marshmallow-y quality. 
In the #4 finale, too much stop-and-go phrasing in the opening section...each new 8 measure phrase needing a fresh startup...hardly the engaging, seamless flow of one to another, as we hear from Toscanini or Reiner. Zehetmair isn't terrible, but I've heard much better.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Gray Bean said:


> Do you enjoy small orchestra Brahms? Are there any chamber sets you would recommend?


I have not heard this set, but I really like small orchestra Brahms. The Mackerras set on Telarc with chamber orchestra is my favorite Brahms cycle of all. Not even the excellent Chailly or Barenboim sets have knocked it down. There is another small orchestra set that most people don't think of and it's superb is the Bruno Walter/Columbia Symphony Orchestra stereo recordings. The wind section of course is regular size, but they used a smaller string section.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

There’s always room for different takes on my favorite repertoire. I can’t imagine myself revisiting Zehetmair a lot the way I do my favorites: Abbado, Walter, Klemperer, Kempe, Furtwangler, Jochum. But at his best he provides a lighter take that I enjoy quite a bit, especially in the 4th and (kind of) in the 2nd. My main problem is the handling of the slow movements with super inexpressive phrasing. I do think Zehetmair finds some good ideas in this music though, and there are nice interpretive touches that elevate it above just “HIP for its own sake.”


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Baron Scarpia said:


> There are many way to perform Brahms, and the small ensemble recordings are very attractive to me. I've enjoyed Mackerras greatly and I have recently acquired the Zehetmair. Sometimes I am in a mood for Karajan's sensuous Berlin Philharmonic strings, and sometimes I am in a mood for intricacies of woodwind voice leading, or anything in between.


Absolutely, I totally agree. And actually you can hear woodwinds decently well in Karajan in the digital cycle, even though the balance is strings-forward.

All the comments claiming Zehetmair barrels through transitions are clearly incorrect. He slows down quite traditionally in all the usual places and to about the usual degree. And there is certainly no recording by Toscanini or Reiner where the woodwinds can be heard more clearly. That's just laughable. If I didn't know better, I'd think that comment came from someone who doesn't know the score at all. Both of those guys were infamous for giving woodwinds the hand constantly. So many stories about that!

Actually, I don't understand why anyone especially likes either Reiner's or Toscanini's Brahms. I think both are pretty close to awful, much closer to Brahmsianhorn's description than Zehetmair is. I like the tradition of a continuous melodic line myself, but I wouldn't point a listener towards either Reiner or Toscanini for a good example of that; both tend towards being much too driven and scenery-chewing instead of true lyricism. Skrowaczewski is _much_ better in that regard.

De gustibus non est disputandum!

To the OP, the Zehetmair are easy to find online, decide for yourself whether you like them. No need to pay attention to yahoos like us.

ETA: for the small orchestra setup, I prefer Chailly/Leipzig (which I love), Berglund, or Mackerras to Zehetmair, mainly for greater poetry in the slow movements.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Knorf said:


> Actually, I don't understand why anyone especially likes either Reiner's or Toscanini's Brahms. I think both are pretty close to awful, much closer to Brahmsianhorn's description than Zehetmair is. I like the tradition of a continuous melodic line myself, but I wouldn't point a listener towards either Reiner or Toscanini for a good example of that; both tend towards being much too driven and scenery-chewing instead of true lyricism.


Toscanini may have been a bit driven in Brahms, but certainly Reiner was not. Quite the opposite. And both were extremely lyrical and worth hearing. Neither gave us the full architectural view of the work that a Furtwangler or Jochum did, but they still had their merits.

I found Zehetmair to be literally unlistenable, which is not normal for me. I'll give the 4th a try if I find the time. My guess is that the orchestral writing alone may give it a slight boost, because the slow movements of Nos. 1 & 3 were just horrible. Completely lifeless with Zehetmair. Again, I ask, what is the point? Ego? I care too much about the music.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

I do like Reiner a bit better than Toscanini, and maybe driven isn't quite the right word for him. Maybe cloddish and overbearing, like an verbally abusive parent? That's a bit too harsh. But, yes, I suppose both have their merits. However, neither are so good even at their best as to remotely come close to eclipsing numerous subsequent recordings, not even Zehetmair, which I find more interesting, musical, and enjoyable than either Reiner or Toscanini, even though that cycle is not that near my own personal favorites.

By the way, if we're talking Philharmonia for Toscanini, the very poor pitch in the winds rules those recordings out for me as anything I could live with. Reiner with CSO is at least in tune, albeit a bit strident in balance and concept. From Reiner's generation, I like Szell, Klemperer, and Walter _a lot_ better then Reiner for Brahms, among others.

But I won't be recommending Furtwängler, either, to anyone, except as a curiosity.

Jochum, yes, however. I like Jochum's Brahms quite well.

And there really are many, many great Brahms recordings.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Knorf said:


> I do like Reiner a bit better than Toscanini, and maybe driven isn't quite the right word for him. Maybe cloddish and overbearing, like an verbally abusive parent? That's a bit too harsh. But, yes, I suppose both have their merits. However, neither are so good even at their best as to remotely come close to eclipsing numerous subsequent recordings, not even Zehetmair, which I find more interesting, musical, and enjoyable than either Reiner or Toscanini, even though that cycle is not that near my own personal favorites.


That describes my reaction to Szell's Brahms, and his Beethoven, and his famous Mahler 4, for that matter (I do like a lot of his recordings like his Mozart and Haydn). Very well-played but _soooo_ stiff and straightforward, at least in the faster movements. I think he does a pretty good job with slow movements. Weird considering I have the complete opposite reaction with Zehetmair.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Huh. And I prefer Szell to Reiner! In almost anything, too.

_De gustibus non est disputandum_ has never been less appropriate. So it is!


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

I received my copy last week. I guess Claves must notice a varied interest in this new recording. BTW, Claves included a free sample CD with Haydn's Seven Last Words by Ton Koopman and the Berner Symphoniker, a great gift for a Koopman fan like me. 

As to Brahms, I really like the Zehetmaier touch, very refreshing and energetic and a worthy contender in the field. Brahms benefits from a bit of clarity and Zehetmaier delivers this, without forcing the orchestra to speed records. There is plenty of time to breathe, but it won't get the laid back heavy cream which is served by so many of the big orchestra's. I am happy with this new set and I can recommend it to everyone.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

One of the things I love about Toscanini, Reiner, and Solti is the clarity in the texture... you can hear all of those great little inside lines, countermelodies....they had the players, they brought out the details, even with big orchestra forces...
They also build and shape the drama of the music so well...there is wonderful flow to the music..
I don't find Toscanini too driven, rather there is a wonderful supple, flexibility to the phrasing, and a sustained melodic line that is most effective...I never understand when people claim that Toscanini and Reiner were merely time-beating robots...it is simply wrong...
Reiner did not record a complete set of Brahms symphonies (no #1, tmk)...his CSO #3 is one of the best, his #4 with RoyalPO is top level for me, and his live NYPO #2 is just high octane, thrilling from the get-go.
Walter is very good also, tho I find his earlier NYPO set hampered by congested sound in the climaxes, and to some extent, the later ColSO set 
by the small string section..
I find Furtwangler interesting, and certainly attentive to the drama of the music, but the sloppiness is distracting...
There are lots of different approaches to Brahms, of course...to each his own, as always.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

The Zehetmair is nowhere near strange enough to be so polarizing. I'm puzzled!

After seeing NLAdriaan's and Merl's advocacy, I'm more tempted to just get this cycle, and not just be content with the You Tube links. Like I need more Brahms... my wife will understand, right?


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Knorf said:


> The Zehetmair is nowhere near strange enough to be so polarizing. I'm puzzled!
> 
> After seeing NLAdriaan's and Merl's advocacy, I'm more tempted to just get this cycle, and not just be content with the You Tube links. Like I need more Brahms... my wife will understand, right?


Don't listen to me, Knorf. I only listen to fast stuff. My idea of great Brahms would be Scherchen doing it on a 33rpm LP played on 78, maybe whilst driving a dragster and conducting an orchestra of super-speedy greyhounds high on cocaine. :lol:


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> That describes my reaction to Szell's Brahms, and his Beethoven, and his famous Mahler 4, for that matter (I do like a lot of his recordings like his Mozart and Haydn). Very well-played but _soooo_ stiff and straightforward, at least in the faster movements. I think he does a pretty good job with slow movements. Weird considering I have the complete opposite reaction with Zehetmair.


Completely agreed on Szell, including the overrated Mahler 4. Stiff and straightforward are good descriptions. But I tell you I've been shocked at how good his Strauss is. Try his Tod und Verklarung.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Knorf said:


> The Zehetmair is nowhere near strange enough to be so polarizing. I'm puzzled!


It's not strange, just really bad. Celibidache and Scherchen are strange, but I can still listen to them with some interest.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Heck148 said:


> One of the things I love about Toscanini, Reiner, and Solti is the clarity in the texture... you can hear all of those great little inside lines, countermelodies....they had the players, they brought out the details, even with big orchestra forces...


The first time I heard the Brahms 3rd I fell in love with the part where the woodwinds pick up the initial melody of the 4th movement from the strings. At that point I wasn't paying attention to who was playing (It was a library LP), but no recording since that first one has ever sounded quite right. Isn't that always the way it is?


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Heck148 said:


> I never understand when people claim that Toscanini and Reiner were merely time-beating robots...it is simply wrong...


Wrong, huh? No, it's not "wrong"; it's just subjective. And it's often what I myself hear from them, although I would not put it quite so harshly. After all, their music making is probably a little better than just setting up a metronome and firing a starter pistol. I suppose.

(Just kidding.)



> I find Furtwangler interesting, and certainly attentive to the drama of the music, but the sloppiness is distracting...


A point of agreement! Yay!



> There are lots of different approaches to Brahms, of course...to each his own, as always.


Indeed.

I very much enjoy hearing different approaches to this music. It's far, far greater music than could possibly allow for even the most accomplished conductor to find all the answers themselves. You could listen to every single Brahms symphony recording, good and bad and everything in between, and still not have heard everything this music has to offer.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Knorf said:


> .....
> I very much enjoy hearing different approaches to this music. It's far, far greater music than could possibly allow for even the most accomplished conductor to find all the answers themselves. You could listen to every single Brahms symphony recording, good and bad and everything in between, and still not have heard everything this music has to offer.


Agreed, that's why I find it difficult to name just one particular Brahms symphony recording as "best", or my favorite...there are always several top candidates, all with something special to offer...certainly true for me, with syms 1, 2, and 4.
I have to admit, I've never found a "perfect" recording of #3...plenty of fine ones, but Brahms 3 is a tough nut, lots of challenges for both conductor and orchestra...best performance I've ever heard was a long time ago - Skrowaczewski (sp??) Philadelphia @ SPAC...great! They just nailed it....some recordings are very close, but I've yet to hear one that gets it all.


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## Gray Bean (May 13, 2020)

I'm very fond of the Walter/Columbia SO set. If fact, if forced to choose just one, I would more than likely choose Walter. The 3rd is absolutely amazing...the one that often disappoints in many cycles. I listened carefully to the Zehetmair B4 and I really like it. He certainly doesn't set one speed and stick to it. The orchestra is quite good.. The first mvt in particular is great. Beautiful soft cello playing in the second mvt. Just my opinion.


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

For smaller scale Brahms recordings Berglund is my choice but it is along time since I heard Mackerras and I haven't heard all of Ticciati's set other than small samples.
The point I will make is - after listening to Berglund, specifically the woodwinds I then went back and listened to more traditional readings with a sharper ear, realising there was/is more to the symphonies than I had originally thought.
Costly realisation!


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Completely agreed on Szell, including the overrated Mahler 4. Stiff and straightforward are good descriptions. But I tell you I've been shocked at how good his Strauss is. Try his Tod und Verklarung.


I happen not to like Mahler's music so don't listen to it much, hence I haven't heard the Szell Mahler 4, but Szell was apparently no fonder of Mahler's output than I am, so that may explain your and ACB's reaction to it.

Partially agree about Szell's Beethoven, in that I'm not a huge fan of his Beethoven symphonies, but I enjoy his set of the piano concertos with Fleisher very much. Interesting parallel: I'm not a Rattle fan but do like his Beethoven concertos with Brendel.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Szell is the king of concerto accompanying, going back all the way to the 30s. One of the best is his Brahms 1st piano concerto with Curzon. Great performance in terrific sound.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

A thread about Zehetmair's interesting, provocative and hard to pigeon hole (and inspiring) has quickly moved on to Szell. I am not sure we needed another thread about his Brahms, do we?


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

In my time on this forum I have never once engaged in censoring discussion. It's a curious habit of some. All music discussion connects together.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Enthusiast said:


> A thread about Zehetmair's interesting, provocative and hard to pigeon hole (and inspiring) has quickly moved on to Szell. I am not sure we needed another thread about his Brahms, do we?


It's my fault. And, arguably, no.


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## Guest (Jun 25, 2020)

Anyone have an opinion of Manze, which also seems to be as polarizing as Zehetmair. Is it "small band" Brahms as well?


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Baron Scarpia said:


> Anyone have an opinion of Manze, which also seems to be as polarizing as Zehetmair. Is it "small band" Brahms as well?


I quite like it but he sometimes loses his way. The 2nd (especially) and 4th are good. I don't rate his 3rd at all. Quite quick set and lighter touch, as you said, but not one of the better examples of this. OK but nowt more.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Another small band Brahms that has come out, just recently completed, is the Thomas Dausgaard/Swedish Chamber Orchestra on BIS. I have the 2nd from that cycle, which I purchased on accident. (Seriously. I was checking it out on Amazon and I think I must have blundered into hitting "one click purchase" on my phone. I didn't realize I had bought it until it appeared in my mailbox! I liked it enough to keep it, certainly.)

It's very good, but I need another listen before I make a definitive, comparative comment. Reviews have been favorable but also somewhat split: people who only think Brahms should be thick and pillowy obviously won't like it. Hurwitz hates it, but as always that tells you nothing at all.


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## Guest (Jun 25, 2020)

Knorf said:


> Another small band Brahms that has come out, just recently completed, is the Thomas Dausgaard/Swedish Chamber Orchestra on BIS. I have the 2nd from that cycle, which I purchased on accident. (Seriously. I was checking it out on Amazon and I think I must have blundered into hitting "one click purchase" on my phone. I didn't realize I had bought it until it appeared in my mailbox! I liked it enough to keep it, certainly.)
> 
> It's very good, but I need another listen before I make a definitive, comparative comment. Reviews have been favorable but also somewhat split: people who only think Brahms should be thick and pillowy obviously won't like it. Hurwitz hates it, but as always that tells you nothing at all.


Is it complete? I don't see the 4th listed in my usual sources. I generally have enjoyed Dausgaard's work in the past and was intrigued to see them starting to come out.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Baron Scarpia said:


> Is it complete, I don't see the 4th listed in my usual sources. I generally have enjoyed Dausgaard's work in the past and was intrigued to see them starting to come out.


Yep. The fourth is due to be released on July 31, 2020, as listed on Presto Classical. Other locations may have different release dates.

I haven't heard a ton from Dausgaard, but from what I do know, I definitely rate him. That Mahler 10 with Seattle is a rare recording I'm comfortable describing as "best ever." I'll revisit my accidental Brahms 2 soon.


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## Guest (Jun 25, 2020)

^^^ I may have to spring for them. I see that eclassical.com has lossless downloads at a reasonable price point.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> In my time on this forum I have never once engaged in censoring discussion. It's a curious habit of some. All music discussion connects together.


If that is aimed at me then I think you have misunderstood. I just wanted the thread to remain on topic as I don't think we have yet come to an understanding of what is good/bad about the recordings being discussed. Indeed we do not even yet have an agreement on how Zehetmair plays them. Please do continue to discuss Szell's Brahms especially if you can say something that you haven't said here many times already. For the record, I quite like Szell's Brahms but do not consider it to be the last word. There - I broke my own (alleged) censorship!


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Knorf said:


> Another small band Brahms that has come out, just recently completed, is the Thomas Dausgaard/Swedish Chamber Orchestra on BIS.


Thanks for pointing that out - I wasn't aware of its existence. I liked Dausgaard's Schumann quite a bit, so I'll be interested to hear his Brahms.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

As for Dausgaard's Brahms Symphony No. 2 with the Swedish Chamber Orchestra, I think I'll more or less reprise here what I wrote in the "Current Listening" thread:

This is a sweet, profoundly lyrical, and dancing performance, an approach that is very effective for this symphony. Despite what Hurwitz says, the strings don't sound at all thin or anemic, but are rich and detailed, and the winds are very beautiful, and well balanced. I think it's an excellent performance, and for sure a superb recording in terms of audio quality. To anyone who is sympathetic to the "small-band" Brahms Symphony approach, in the Meiningen Tradition, this is an easy recommendation. I hope more of you check these recordings out and comment.

I think I'd say it comes across to me as less mannered than Zehetmair, although I am not fairly comparing like for like, since I've only heard Zehetmair's 1st and 3rd Brahms symphonies, and only Dausgaard's No. 2, but I suspect this observation will hold true overall.

I may yet spring for the whole cycle, soon after the 4th is released in late July or perhaps wait and see whether BIS issues the recordings as a box set. BIS is currently on sale at Presto Classical, so it wouldn't be horrendously expensive to get them individually, but, still, a box would be nice, especially if they do what they did with the Mendelssohn Concertos and put everything on a single extended, long-playing SACD.

Positive reviews for Dausgaard: Gramophone, Fanfare, International Record Guide.
Negative reviews for Dausgaard: Classics Today (Hurtwitz, _quelle surprise_.)


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Knorf said:


> As for Dausgaard's Brahms Symphony No. 2 with the Swedish Chamber Orchestra, I think I'll more or less reprise here what I wrote in the "Current Listening" thread:
> 
> This is a sweet, profoundly lyrical, and dancing performance, an approach that is very effective for this symphony. Despite what Hurwitz says, the strings don't sound at all thin or anemic, but are rich and detailed, and the winds are very beautiful, and well balanced. I think it's an excellent performance, and for sure a superb recording in terms of audio quality. To anyone who is sympathetic to the "small-band" Brahms Symphony approach, in the Meiningen Tradition, this is an easy recommendation. I hope more of you check these recordings out and comment.
> 
> ...


I have Dausgaard's Schubert, Schumann and Beethoven cycles. The Beethoven is good but I was a bit disappointed with it, the Schubert Is very good and the Schumann is dull. A mixed bag. Not heard any Brahms yet.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Merl said:


> I have Dausgaard's Schubert, Schumann and Beethoven cycles. The Beethoven is good but I was a bit disappointed with it, the Schubert Is very good and the Schumann is dull. A mixed bag. Not heard any Brahms yet.


BTW, if anyone is interested in Dausgaard's Schumann, it's included in this ridiculously cheap set on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/Schumann-Masters-Supreme-Classical-Masterpieces/dp/B006ABZY7C


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## Gray Bean (May 13, 2020)

After listening to the Zehetmair Brahms 4th several times here are my initial reactions: the strings play with vibrato. Not metronomic....appropriate application of rubato in the first movement. In fact, I noticed that he speeds up towards the end of this movement in the same place as Furtwangler in 1949. The woodwinds and horns are very good...personally, I would like a little more force from the horn section, but in the coda the brass and timpani come to the fore nicely. I liked this movement.
Second movement is one of my favorites in all of Brahms. Zehetmair is very good in this movement. Throughout the strings play nicely...phrasing is good but not fussy or interventionist. Sensitively phrased. Beautiful soft playing from the cellos. Nice contrast of tone and dynamics. Horns are beautiful. 
Third movement is vigorous and lively. The orchestra sounds really good and fully engaged and (ha ha) the triangle is on steroids! I like it.
Final movement. Strings (especially violins) sizzle away. Plenty of angst and forward drive. Middle section is beautifully phrased with real tenderness. Lovely. The end is fierce and just fast enough. A fine performance of this deadly passacaglia. 
This is a good little orchestra...I’d never heard of them. Zehetmair is very good in this...I didn’t know he was conducting these days. He is one hell of a violinist for sure. I really like this performance and will listen to it again. A keeper. Great recorded sound, too. 
So, that’s just a few minor observations on the 4th after living with it for a few days.


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## Gray Bean (May 13, 2020)

Dausgaard is good, only three so far. Four out soon. I have the Manze set and it is well done. Worth hearing. I have ordered the Mackerras set on Telarc. Working on listening to Zehetmair’s Brahms 2 today. We’ll see.


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## Caryatid (Mar 28, 2020)

I'm in favor of playing Brahms fairly quickly and with a smallish orchestra. It's what he had in mind. Having said that, I have just been listening to Zehetmair conduct the Second Symphony, and I would say Dausgaard is a better choice. He's much more lively and entertaining.


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## Gray Bean (May 13, 2020)

Caryatid said:


> I'm in favor of playing Brahms fairly quickly and with a smallish orchestra. It's what he had in mind. Having said that, I have just been listening to Zehetmair conduct the Second Symphony, and I would say Dausgaard is a better choice. He's much more lively and entertaining.


I'll see. I have enjoyed the Dausgaard set so far.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Alright, alright, alright.

I finally sampled the 4th, and it is a refreshingly good take on the symphony. I think the work suits Z’s approach very well. Maybe I shouldn’t have made such strong negative earlier remarks without sampling the entire set.

The first movement is particularly eloquent and beautiful. Some of the tempo shifts are weird, but this didn’t bother me so much. More bothersome is the percussive sound of the strings. Not enough warmth for me. But the quick basic tempo and light textures work well. Most importantly it’s the type of performance that leaves you appreciating the music. And yes the tempo shift forward at the end is even reminiscent of Furtwängler.

The second movement reminds me of what I didn’t like in previous samplings of the set. Needlessly rushed and often metronomic. I think I need to clarify what I mean, because the tempo changes quite a bit. When I say metronomic I don’t mean staying at the same tempo throughout a movement. It’s playing a phrase, say four bars long, with the notes evenly spaced in a way that sounds unmusical. What’s particularly strange with Z is how he juxtaposes metronomic phrasing with sudden tempo shifts. It’s like having a computer program where you set bar 24 to a tempo of 80, and then bar 32 suddenly shifts to 60, and so forth. I think Heck alluded to this. It’s not natural and seamless. But it wasn’t a total shambles. The beautiful string melody is understated and eloquent at a slower tempo than the rest. He’s at least trying to say something here.

The third movement comes off quite well, very spirited. The fourth movement continues with the same basic light texture idea and ends well if not as powerfully as with Furt or Kleiber.

So a largely enjoyable alternate take on the symphony.


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## Gray Bean (May 13, 2020)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Alright, alright, alright.
> 
> I finally sampled the 4th, and it is a refreshingly good take on the symphony. I think the work suits Z's approach very well. Maybe I shouldn't have made such strong negative earlier remarks without sampling the entire set.
> 
> ...


I enjoyed it. Glad you noticed the understated string melody in the 2nd movement...and the clarinets, bassoons and horns are nice in this movement (especially the horns). I love the end when the horn melody sings out over undulating strings; one of my favorite spots in all of Brahms. I wanted more from the grinding dissonance in the trumpets at the end of the first movement but the horns and timpani go all out there. Last movement is light but well done.

As an aside, I'm now listening to the 2nd and leaning towards not enjoying it. I have hope, though.


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