# Where to Begin with Bruckner



## mahlernerd (Jan 19, 2020)

Hello! I have to make a confession in that in all of the orchestral music that I love to death, there is still one composer that I can’t really wrap my head around and connect with, and that composer is Anton Bruckner. I really want to be able to enjoy Bruckner’s music, but I guess because of my lack of knowledge and minimal listening experience with Bruckner (compared to other composers anyway), I don’t really know where to start listening with Bruckner. I have a couple of questions to ask for help.

1. What symphonies should I start with?
2. What are some good beginner recordings for Bruckner?
3. What are some important aspects and moments in Bruckner’s music to watch out for to help me understand his music better?

Any help is greatly appreciated. Thank you!

P.S. Disregard the last thread, that was a wrong button I pressed.


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

mahlernerd said:


> 1. What symphonies should I start with?


I started with #7....#4 is a good beginner...pretty straight ahead...

The Walter Columbia recordings are very good....Solti and Barenbom [CSO] are topnotch...


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

From what you said it appears that you have listened to some of the symphonies so it would be wrong to offer suggestions until we know more about what symphonies and recordings you have heard and what, if any, your reactions to them had been. Remember that any request of this sort will result in at least as many different and disparate opinions as their are contributors, and all of them will be their personal likes which may have no connection to what works for you.


----------



## mahlernerd (Jan 19, 2020)

Becca said:


> From what you said it appears that you have listened to some of the symphonies so it would be wrong to offer suggestions until we know more about what symphonies and recordings you have heard and what, if any, your reactions to them had been. Remember that any request of this sort will result in at least as many different and disparate opinions as their are contributors, and all of them will be their personal likes which may have no connection to what works for you.


Yes, thank you. The problem is that I have tried many different recordings that have not seemed to click with me. The three main ones that I have tried are Barenboim with the CSO, and Karajan with the BPO. I listened to the first three with Karajan, and the fourth with Barenboim. I know that both of these are regarded highly among Bruckner fans, so I guess I have just been confused as to why I haven't been able to enjoy them as much as others do. So, I would like to know if those are good recordings to start with for Bruckner, and if they're not, what would be an ideal recording to get me more engaged with his music. Also, I would like to know if those symphonies that I mentioned in this post are ideal to start with for Bruckner. Is it a good idea to start by listening to all of his symphonies chronologically by starting with 1 (or 0) going to 9, or is there a specific symphony that is good to start with. And also, just because I haven't been well-acquainted with Bruckner's music, are there any characteristics or aspects of Bruckner's music specific to him to watch out for to better understand and appreciate his music. I hope that this makes things a little clearer. Thank you so much for your help!


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

A few thoughts based on what you said:
- Some people think highly of Bruckner by Barenboim, Karajan, Solti, etc., others don't (including me), so based on your reaction so far, I would suggest looking elsewhere - Klemperer, Wand, Schaller, Giulini ... there are many choices and I have no idea whose style resonates with you.
- All opinions are personal and there is no reason to expect that you will agree with them so don't let yourself be confused, yours are different from theirs.
- If there is any consistency it is probably that the 4th & 7th are the easiest to approach. I wouldn't attempt to pick one over the other.
- As to the 'what to listen for' question, I have no idea how to answer that, just listen. I might recommend doing it with headphones or at least in an environment where you won't be distracted.


----------



## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

As someone who still has problems with Bruckner, having repeatedly tried Nos. 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 over the years, the one that first sounded to me like a "real" symphony as I defined it, was No. 9 (even in its incomplete state.) My guess is, if that doesn't work, nothing will. no harm no foul. (The first one I head was Mehta and the L.A. Phil., about which I have no idea what aficionados think, but my guess is there are a bunch of good/better recordings.)


----------



## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

Personally I'm not a big fan of Barenboim or Karajan in Bruckner either. Good as they are, IMO they emphasized more on Bruckner's grandeur rather than passion. If, like me, you'd like something that has got more bite, try Inbal/FrankfurtRSO (Teldec), or to a lesser extent Wand/CologneRSO (RCA), while some of Jochum's Bruckner (DG, EMI & others) are also very exciting (but he also did some that are slow and sublime.)

While Nos. 4 to 9 are in general the more popular ones, some folks here also think the earlier ones are absolutely masterpieces, so you'll have form your own opinion about that.

Then there is the fun bit, the various editions of each Bruckner symphony. Some editions of some symphonies are subtle in their differences, while some others sound rather different, even with a completely different movement. This could be a fascinating exploration journey.


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

All I can tell you is how I got hooked:

Get one of the great recordings of no. 3 in the Nowak edition. Put on a great pair of headphones. Crank the volume up, sit back and soak it in. If the coda of the finale doesn't lift you out of your seat, make your pulse kick up, and gives you a profound exhilaration, I don't know what will. The whole symphony moves at a good pace, but that ending is one of the most glorious things ever penned. I've been listening to it for 50+ years and it still gets me every time.


----------



## Andrew Kenneth (Feb 17, 2018)

For the longest time the Karajan symphonies box was the only Bruckner I owned. And, like you, I had a very hard time appreciating these symphonies.

In the last couple of months however I've been binging on Bruckner and have collected quite the collection whilst avoiding the usual suspects ( Jochum, Wänd, ...)

Initially I collected Bruckner symphonies conducted by Hans Knappertsbusch (I'm a Kna fanboy) and also those conducted by Simone Young. Mrs. Young recorded all 11 Bruckner symphonies in their early versions for Oehms Classics on SACD.

Then recordings by Franz Welser-Möst, Neeme Järvi, Sakari Oramo, Enoch zu Guttenberg, Thomas Dausgaard, Philipp Von Steinaeker, Osmo Vänska & Trevor Pinnock.

I also am quite fond of the Mario Venzago box-set containing symphonies 0-9.

In general, because of my earlier bad experience with Karajan's way with Bruckner, I tend to prefer faster readings of these symphonies/ sometimes performed by a smaller orchestra.


----------



## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Start with symphonies 3, 4, and 7, and the Te Deum.There are lots of recordings; I'd recommend Celibidache for the 4th and Karajan for the others.

(However, Bruckner's greatest symphonies are probably his 8th and 9th.)


----------



## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

It has taken me a long time as well to click with Bruckner. About 15 years back I felt I had settled in with Mahler...but, I more recently found myself shifting away from him, based somewhat on a declining desire to stick with the ups and downs of his emotional odyssey within the context of his lengthy compositions. I had also delved into a number of fascinating books on him which shed further light on how his experiences and feelings shaped the course of his personal and musical life. 

My approach to Bruckner has not really taken the same measure and pathway as that associated with Mahler. I would agree with Becca's advice about simply listening to the music. However, though I've continued listening to Bruckner, I've yet to appreciate his symphonies as I did Mahler's---and I just might not. For me, Bruckner and Mahler live somewhat in figuratively different worlds of musical and emotional expression.

Otherwise, I would recommend a listen to Bruckner's Seventh. You might want to try either or both versions of Klemperer/Philharmonia Orchestra and/or Giulini/Vienna Philharmonic. I believe the melodies and general character of the Seventh to be a bit more accessible than the composer's other symphonies. Good luck.


----------



## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

For what it's worth, although I adore the Karajan cycle, I think I'd recommend Skrowaczewski as a first set. But there are many good to superb choices!

ETA: the gateway to Bruckner for me was the Sixth, with Karajan/Berlin.


----------



## cyberstudio (Mar 31, 2019)

mahlernerd said:


> 3. What are some important aspects and moments in Bruckner's music to watch out for to help me understand his music better?


Some deride Bruckner wrote the same symphony 9 times. They do follow a predictable structure.


4 movements, with the 2nd movement being the slow movement and 3rd the scherzo until #7. Starting from #8 the order of the inner movements reversed.
The outer movements are always sonata form, with at least 3 themes. The second theme is always lyrical and/or sound like Austrian folk dance. By the third theme we are usually already in a remote key.
The use of slow crescendo lasting several minutes to build up, e.g. the finale of #4, the beginning of #9 and the coda of numerous movements.
The slow movement is always theme and variation, with the exception of #6 which is sonata form.
The scherzo is always rondo, with a slower-sounding lyrical trio in the middle.
Frequent pauses some said to make use of cathedral acoustics.

But what actually makes Bruckner one of the greatest symphonists of all time is this: his music is abstract enough that they are open to different styles of interpretation. Different people will have different take-aways, all of them very satisfied but in entirely different manners. Here is where different conductors come in and here are my over-generalizations of them.


Eugene Jochum presents Bruckner as a pure genius. Listen to some of the most intricate counterpoint in the finale of the 5th.
Karajan paints a portrait of the Austrian Alps.
To Gunter Wand, Bruckner is Beethoven's heir in his kindness and humanistic heroism.
Celibidache's Bruckner is a transcendental religious experience.
Barenboim's Bruckner is for drama and excitement.
Boulez, Giulini, Tennstedt and many others do not have complete cycles but the symphonies they recorded are great.


----------



## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

^^^ Excellent over-generalisations there! 

Not sure what the OP's problem with Bruckner is, but as with many here I found him a hell of a lot harder to get into than certain other great composers; only Sibelius ever gave me similar grief!

I started with No.4, and I still reckon it's the best starting point. But its immediate predecessor would be just as good. 

May I suggest a more sacrilegious and controversial way in? Try listening to some of his Scherzo movements; Bruckner is perfectly capable of producing an exciting and invigorating tempo, he's not all Adagio senza moto. And while there are more important movements in each of his symphonies than the scherzo, these movements do expand nicely into the whole work when in context. If your issue is with "waiting for something to happen" as it were, this might help, and I'd recommend you give the third movement of No.7, and the second of No.8 a go? (No.9's is vicious, and way ahead of its time, maybe not the best place to dip ones toes?) and then No.3, conveniently forgetting to pause, as the Finale effectively continues the mood of the Scherzo.

Listening to the whole symphony then, knowing what to expect from the "exciting movement" might make things make sense?

I do expect to be told this is morally wrong, and be called an appalling Philistine, but it has worked for some of the tougher Bruckners (esp No.5) for me!


----------



## Geoff48 (Aug 15, 2020)

Of all the so called “great “ composers Bruckner is the one who I have had the greatest problem in appreciating. It’s not for want of trying. I own the complete Karajan set on DGG. It came as part of a larger box of complete symphonies by Beethoven, 
Tchaikovsky etc; I doubt I would have bought it on its own. I’ve tried listening to most of them without enjoying them. Then I’ve picked up many individual symphonies as part of miscellaneous boxes including Giulini, Celibidache, Jochum etc. No success. The first symphonic concert I intended included Bruckner’s 7th conducted by Rudolf Schwarz. I found it overlong.
For me Bruckner starts a climax but never resolves it. He takes time saying nothing at length. 
So I think I must accept that I am never going to be a Bruckner’s fan. And given the vast quantity of composers and music I do love I can’t really regret it too much. But it does irk me when friends tell me how wonderful he is and that I must be wired wrongly if I can’t appreciate him.


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

CnC Bartok said:


> May I suggest a more sacrilegious and controversial way in? Try listening to some of his Scherzo movements; Bruckner is perfectly capable of producing an exciting and invigorating tempo, he's not all Adagio senza moto. And while there are more important movements in each of his symphonies than the scherzo,...


That's a very good idea!! Bruckner scherzi are immediately appealing....basic in form, plenty of energy and easily approachable melody and harmony....scherzi from # 3, 4, 6,7,8,9 are all good places to start...


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Everyone has given great recommendations, and I think the concensus is, we can't tell you which recording will grab you, because we all are looking for different things in Bruckner. 

I'm a fan of transcendence, so what hooked me in to Bruckner was Tintner's set on Naxos, particularly the 4th symphony. And then there's Jochum's recording of the 5th on Phillips with the Concertgebouw. 

It seems like once you hit on your gateway recording, everything falls into place, and then you end up collecting different conductors' recordings just to see what they can do with them. (Except Norrington. That one doesn't work.)


----------



## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Heck148 said:


> That's a very good idea!! Bruckner scherzi are immediately appealing....basic in form, plenty of energy and easily approachable melody and harmony....scherzi from # 3, 4, 6,7,8,9 are all good places to start...


I would add his Scherzo from #1 is also very good, I recommend Abbado with Vienna PO.


----------



## Ned Low (Jul 29, 2020)

Unlike some of our friends, i fell in love Bruckner's music the first time i listened to him(his 9th. I had this experience with some composers : Ludwig van, Schubert and Wagner. Not too many. There are others i need to spend more time with like Mahler or Sibelius) 
Bruckner's symphonies tend to be lenghtier than those Classical or early Romantic symphonies. Therefore, you have to take your time with him and spend more time to get familiar with his style. Begin with only one movement of a symphony, listen to it attentively. When you think you' re familiar with it, go for the next movement. Spend enough time with that movement until you'll feel you're ready for the next movement. After mastering each movement separately, it's time to listen to the symphony ; to all four movements( save for the 9th) one after another, without any pause.
There are different recordings with different interpretations. Celibidache,Jochum,Karajan,Tintner, Barenboim, Solti, Sinopoli,Young, Knappertsbusch, Giulini, Mazzel,Skrowaczewski, Barenboim,Wand,Chailly, Furtwangler, Haitink. All amazing ,yet different in their approach to Bruckner. It's only a matter of taste here.
Here's the discography. Name of the conductor and orchestra. For each symphony as well as complete sets.
https://www.abruckner.com/discography/
I hope i've been crystal clear explaining things i wanted to say. Listening to Bruckner is a unique, pleasurable experience. Keep listening and don't get frustrated . Good luck.


----------



## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

CnC Bartok said:


> ^^^ Excellent over-generalisations there!
> 
> Not sure what the OP's problem with Bruckner is, but as with many here I found him a hell of a lot harder to get into than certain other great composers; only Sibelius ever gave me similar grief!
> 
> ...


Had to chuckle when I read this post CnCB - I thought about posting something remarkably similar last night but decided against doing so for the very reason you stated.
So credit to you for having the gonads to stick your head above the parapet :tiphat:


----------



## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

CnC Bartok said:


> ^^^ Excellent over-generalisations there!
> 
> Not sure what the OP's problem with Bruckner is, but as with many here I found him a hell of a lot harder to get into than certain other great composers; only Sibelius ever gave me similar grief!
> 
> ...


I think (and obviously others do) that this is a very practical and sensible idea, CnC. Once you break one movement its easier to access the rest of Bruckner. This is no different than getting into any longer piece by getting to know a section from one of those 'Classical Experience' type albums. We all have to start somewhere. It's how I finally cracked Mahler's 3rd.


----------



## brucknerian1874 (Oct 21, 2020)

This thread has provoked some serious reflection. Thinking back to my own early experiences with Bruckner it's a little like blue cheese. I didn't take to blue cheese straight away; I had to persevere. Now, I can't get enough of it. 

So it was with Bruckner. I had some early positive experiences; Karl Bohm's 1974 4th, Karajan's EMI 7th, Haitink's 70's 3rd. Then I hit the brick wall that is the 5th.

Now, I have more discs of the 5th than any other Bruckner symphony but I had to stick with it. My listening habits had to mature in order to start really appreciating the genius of Bruckner (and others).

So, my advice is don't be put off by early setbacks. Stick with it; get that toe-hold and push on and before you know it...


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

> =brucknerian1874;1971781.....Then I hit the brick wall that is the 5th.
> Now, I have more discs of the 5th than any other Bruckner symphony but I had to stick with it. My listening habits had to mature in order to start really appreciating the genius of Bruckner (and others).


B5 is still one I don't really warm up to....seems too disconnected, sprawly....tried lots of different recordings...Solti seems to work best for me, he at least keeps the flow going...still tho, #5 is my least favorite of mature Bruckner.


----------



## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

I have gotten into long sprawling works by isolating the parts that appeal to me first. I agree that that can be Bruckner's propulsive scherzos, so I like what another listener said about listening to them first. Or another member's advice to listen to any movement in a given symphony that initially grabs you the most and then go on to others in order of initial appeal once you have found something to appreciate in that one. Only then start to listen to everything in the order it was meant to be.

This kind of thing has worked for me in difficult works when listening repeatedly from start to finish hasn't. Maybe someday I'll appreciate Bach's masses doing this, I've made no headway with them by casual listening.


----------



## brucknerian1874 (Oct 21, 2020)

Heck148 said:


> B5 is still one I don't really warm up to....seems too disconnected, sprawly....tried lots of different recordings...Solti seems to work best for me, he at least keeps the flow going...still tho, #5 is my least favorite of mature Bruckner.


Interesting and yet Hurwitz describes the 5th as "the most like Bruckner and the least like anyone else." Perhaps this why, at least for me, it has become the most rewarding of the earlier symphonies; I really didn't even begin to truly appreciate the 8th and 9th until I had 'cracked' the 5th.

Incidentally, in this regard the little known 2 disc Telarc set by Benjamin Zander was a real Godsend. On the second disc he discusses the Symphony in some detail (nearly 80 minutes) with excerpts to illustrate his points. Disc 1 contains a thoroughly serviceable account of the symphony and it's of the faster flowing (but not the crazy-fast Venzago) variety so it may appeal.









Top 5ths. Here I disagree strongly with Hurwitz. Karajan's 5th (from the box) has always been revelatory and there's also an interesting 1976 live performance with the VPO from the Salzburg Festival. Haitink's most recent BRSO version is recorded in fabulous sound and carries real authority and integrity. A special symphony for Jochum, any of his versions will bring something to the table; for me the Dresden version is the most illuminating. Speaking of Dresden, for the more fiery and dramatic approach Sinopoli's version is one I return to often.

I hope I'm not labouring the point. Many can't warm to Bruckner and write him off as one-dimensional; it's been said (rather cuttingly, I think) that he "wrote the same symphony 9 times."

It's a personal opinion but I firmly believe that discovery in music goes hand in hand with self-discovery. It's a uniquely personal journey, especially with Bruckner. After all, revelation is non-transferable.


----------



## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

I personally began with Eugene Jochum’s performance of the 9th symphony. But looking back maybe the seventh or the fourth might be the best place to start


----------



## Marc (Jun 15, 2007)

For a start with the symphonies of either Beethoven, Bruckner or Mahler I usually recommend their numbers 1 and 4.


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

brucknerian1874 said:


> Interesting and yet Hurwitz describes the 5th as "the most like Bruckner and the least like anyone else."


I have little or no interest in Hurwitz' opinions....



> Top 5ths. Here I disagree strongly with Hurwitz. Karajan's 5th (from the box) has always been revelatory and there's also an interesting 1976 live performance with the VPO from the Salzburg Festival.


HvK does nothing for me, as a rule....I always find that others are far more satisfying....one B5 that I need to check out more is Barenboim/CSO....his complete set is really excellent, in superb sound....I need to give the #5 another intense listening.



> Many can't warm to Bruckner and write him off as one-dimensional; it's been said (rather cuttingly, I think) that he "wrote the same symphony 9 times."


I agree, that is a pretty faulty assessment of Bruckner's symphonies..that's like saying Beethoven wrote the same symphony 9 times....or Mahler wrote the same symphony 9 times...


----------



## bz3 (Oct 15, 2015)

I did not immediately love Bruckner, but with enough listening I soon did. I'd say it took a bit longer than Mahler and I mostly attribute it to the length of his works and each one of his works' (all 9 symphonies and the masses, at least) grand scale. They don't lend themselves to casual listening, which is generally how I acclimate to new music.

However once I did begin to enjoy Bruckner it had as much to do with his sturdy sense of form as it did his facility with melodic themes. I rate his melodic sense as among the best with Schubert, Tchaikovsky, Brahms, etc., which might be a minority opinion even if most acknowledge his ability in this facet of composition. As for form, it could be called 'block-y' but there's really nobody who composed quite like Bruckner - he's inimitable in that sense.

I began with symphonies 3 and 4 and I thought that was fine. 5 was the first I loved but I'd start anywhere really. 7 and 4 would be my personal recommendations, but 1 is a highly underrated masterpiece and certainly not a bad place to begin. The Study symphony is the only place I'd explicitly advise one _not_ to begin.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

In my earliest days of listening to CM I thought Bruckner was like boring film music. But then I listened in closely to the Adagio of No. 7, and it is the first piece of music I ever heard that actually elicited tears from me. By the time the huge climax rolled around, I was literally bawling. Seriously, it was an out-of-body experience. I then moved on to No. 8 and digested it in a single go. I think I listened to the scherzo every day for a month. To this day it remains my absolute favorite symphony (tied with Mahler 9). 4, 7, 8, 9 are among the cream of crop of all orchestral works IMO, and 6 is very good. 3 and 5 I’m still working on, and I haven’t had the commitment to focus on the early ones yet.


----------



## jim prideaux (May 30, 2013)

Karl Bohm/VPO 7th.


----------



## Skakner (Oct 8, 2020)

1. Symphony no.4 is accessible enough for initial approach. The Scherzi of all Symphonies are quite attractive as well.
2. Wand's cycle is a good start point. Barenboim's with CSO is another option.
3. This is a difficult question. All is matter of personal taste. What is exciting for me may be boring for you and vice versa. We don't enjoy music with manual references. Just listen, listen and listen more. The works themselves will attract you or not. Even the best performance can't change your mind about a work if you don't like this work in the first place. So, my advice, at this stage of your engagement, would be to focus on the works basically, not the performances. If and when you become familiar with the works, and you like them, should you explore the performances.


----------



## Simon23 (Dec 8, 2020)

I also think that Bruckner's most accessible symphonies to start with are 4 and 7. Of full cycles, I'm recommending Wand and Jochum (DG). In addition, these symphonies were beautifully recorded by Bohm.


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

mbhaub said:


> All I can tell you is how I got hooked:
> 
> Get one of the great recordings of no. 3 in the Nowak edition. Put on a great pair of headphones. Crank the volume up, sit back and soak it in. If the coda of the finale doesn't lift you out of your seat, make your pulse kick up, and gives you a profound exhilaration, I don't know what will.....


I did this last evening - mvts III&IV of Bruckner #3 - Barenboim//CSO on DG....the coda, closing pages of the finale are incredible...what a sound!! recorded beautifully by DG...after the trumpet fanfare, those chords just erupt from the speakers...splendidly balanced closing pages- it must be amazing to stand on the podium, knowing that incredible wall of sound is about to explode!!..it's impressive sitting in the orchestra itself...from vantage point of the podium has got to be something else!!


----------



## BlackAdderLXX (Apr 18, 2020)

I'm glad you made this post. I was going to post something like it but I'll subscribe to this instead.


----------

