# Neoclassical metal



## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

Neoclassical metal? Nay? Or yay?
Here's an example:




A fellow metal fan of mine said its pretty unimpressive that all you have to do is learn a couple of classical music scales and there you are! Do you agree? I'm not sure myself. Some insight would be helpful 
Thanks,
Rob


----------



## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> Neoclassical metal? Nay? Or yay?
> Here's an example:
> 
> 
> ...


Where is it you think you are? I can only agree that this is pretty unimpressive. What insight is it you wish to have?

Out of interest, what is it in classical music that you enjoy?


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

The genre's name is wrongly appropriated; the pop usage never to be undone or taken back,

NEOCLASSICAL:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoclassicism_%28music%29

Musically, there is little going on there which holds my ears' interest, so I found this music, within one minute's listening, totally boring.

That rock percussion, hammering out a constant four on the floor pretty much throughout (if and when it is mixed meter it is still a far-too constant steady pulse) is really stultifying / deadening.


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

TurnaboutVox said:


> Where is it you think you are? I can only agree that this is pretty unimpressive. What insight is it you wish to have?
> 
> Out of interest, what is it in classical music that you enjoy?


well i am a Death metal fan and classical for me is something to calm my ears with. after hearing all the down tuned guitars in standard d tuning its just nice to sit and be at peace.


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

PetrB said:


> The genre's name is wrongly appropriated; the pop usage never to be undone or taken back,
> 
> NEOCLASSICAL:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoclassicism_%28music%29
> ...


dude you're really awesome and correct on many things but could you just stop calling metal 'pop' it really bugs the hell out of me.


----------



## SeptimalTritone (Jul 7, 2014)

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> well i am a Death metal fan and classical for me is something to calm my ears with. after hearing all the down tuned guitars in standard d tuning its just nice to sit and be at peace.


You should look up the rite of spring or grosse fugue... they are not calming at all!

I hope that eventually in your exploration of classical music it becomes more than just something calming. Indeed, some of it is, but there is a whole lot that such an energetic exploration that is more thunderous, exciting, and riveting than any metal!


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

SeptimalTritone said:


> You should look up the rite of spring or grosse fugue... they are not calming at all!
> 
> I hope that eventually in your exploration of classical music it becomes more than just something calming. Indeed, some of it is, but there is a whole lot that such an energetic exploration that is more thunderous, exciting, and riveting than any metal!


ok! my journey is just beginning so theres things to be explored


----------



## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Nothing like a warm cup of tea, a beautiful sunset, your most comfortable sofa, and... Xenakis' Keqrops!


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> well i am a Death metal fan and classical for me is something to calm my ears with. after hearing all the down tuned guitars in standard d tuning its just nice to sit and be at peace.


LOL. "Calm your ears with," is tantamount to those who say they "use classical music to relax," which to classical listeners is pretty much a major dis on classical! Classical was not / is not, much of it, designed 'to help people relax' -- there are hot tubs and massages and other techniques 'for relaxation.'


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

aleazk said:


> Nothing like a warm cup of tea, a beautiful sunset, your most comfortable sofa, and... Xenakis' Keqrops!


Or sitting on the back porch of a summer evening, cuppa tea in hand, the sun setting, and Lucia Dlugoszewski's _Fire Fragile Flight_ playing as your sonic backdrop...





... or for that matter, some _really_ neoclassical music, like Stravinsky's _Concerto in E-flat, 'Dumbarton Oaks.'_


----------



## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

PetrB said:


> Or sitting on the back porch of a summer evening, cuppa tea in hand, the sun setting, and Lucia Dlugoszewski's _Fire Fragile Flight_ playing as your sonic backdrop...


:lol: Oh, Petr, you made me choke with my warm tea!

Or, your loved one is being subjected to a delicate and complex heart surgery. You are eating your nails in the waiting room. Suddenly, in the loudspeakers: _George Antheil's Ballet mècanique_!






Or, blonde, innocent and angel-face granddaughter goes and plays at the retirement home a little of what she has been learning in the piano. The repertoire: _Ligeti's Continuum for harpsichord_!


----------



## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

Why don't we just use Metal for what it was made for? Skill lacking, execution lacking, production lacking, pretty much everything lacking ... but the attitude is in full swing.

Bathory


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Vesuvius said:


> Why don't we just use Metal for what it was made for? Skill lacking, execution lacking, production lacking, pretty much everything lacking ... but the attitude is in full swing.


Give that young feller a cigar and lend him the car for the night!

Whatever can be said of the music theory used in a genre or piece, it has yet to prove whether the piece is any good, functions for what it was meant to do, and all the rest.

Its musical means and intent are near completely antithetical to just about any 'classical music aesthetic,' so to compare it to that, or ask opinions about it from the classical perspective is going to disappoint, or just fail.

Ergo: I do wish people would stop trying to dress this sort of music up in clothes which do not fit it and which make it look vaguely ridiculous, like an 18 year-old male wearing, awkwardly and uncomfortably, a three-piece suit


----------



## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

SeptimalTritone said:


> You should look up the rite of spring or grosse fugue... they are not calming at all!


Yes, and don't forget Wagner:





Someone in the last Death Metal thread made a very good comparison of various kinds of music with food: classical music if like gourmet cuisine (or a fine homemade dinner for that matter), metal and other pop culture is like a McDonalds burger and fries. It's perfectly fine to dine on burger and fries once in a while, when you have no time or inclination to cook fine cuisine, but you will not survive on fast food alone.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> Neoclassical metal? Nay? Or yay?
> 
> A fellow metal fan of mine said its pretty unimpressive that all you have to do is learn a couple of classical music scales and there you are! Do you agree? I'm not sure myself. Some insight would be helpful
> Thanks,
> Rob


I wouldn't take your friend's word as having much worth -- anyone who uses the phrase "classical music scales" is, musically, fundamentally near to a music illiterate.


----------



## MrXmusicID (Aug 23, 2014)

Here is a project a friend of mine did, taking Knight Rupert by Robert Schumann, distorting the audio [to remind one of an electric guitar], and syncing a metal drum loop to it. [the red was done to startle the viewers, since this was part of a random compilation]:




Yes, it's a bland novelty at best, done partially out of boredom...


----------



## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> ... but could you just stop calling metal 'pop' it really bugs the hell out of me.


Most metal I've encountered really seem like childish pop in comparison with something really on the edge like Merzbow!





(Pulse Demon Album)

/ptr


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

Vesuvius said:


> Why don't we just use Metal for what it was made for? Skill lacking, execution lacking, production lacking, pretty much everything lacking ... but the attitude is in full swing.
> 
> Bathory


this is part of the first wave of black metal..... its meant to be low production


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

ptr said:


> Most metal I've encountered really seem like childish pop in comparison with something really on the edge like Merzbow!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yes that may be true but why the hell would you compare metal to POP like justin bieber or selena gomez. People who play in metal bands are far more dedicated and no matter what you say there is plenty of metal that is extremely hard to play.


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> why the hell would you compare metal to POP like justin bieber or selena gomez. People who play in metal bands are far more dedicated and no matter what you say there is plenty of metal that is extremely hard to play.


pop is much more than justin bieber or selena gomez. Pop means also Jobim, Stevie Wonder, Steely Dan and a lot of different music. And metal is popular music. Especially those subgenres like power metal, symphonic metal, epic, etc are basically pop songs.


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

norman bates said:


> pop is much more than justin bieber or selena gomez. Pop means also Jobim, Stevie Wonder, Steely Dan and a lot of different music. And metal is popular music. Especially those subgenres like power metal, symphonic metal, epic, etc are basically pop songs.


yes but extreme genres are not at all and i was talking about modern pop i personally like the 60's pop like the monkees and the box tops


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> dude you're really awesome and correct on many things but could you just stop calling metal 'pop' it really bugs the hell out of me.


If we leave that very odd and sometimes highly distinguished gentleman Jazz out of the discussion, what is left are _Pop_ & _Non-Pop (classical.)_

Re: metal -- "It is," as the cliché has it, "what it is." -- which leaves it squarely in the Pop Music arena.

I mean, dress it up with a title if you like, but it is still pop music. I'm more curious to know why you think it is not pop music!


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

PetrB said:


> If we leave that very odd and sometimes highly distinguished gentleman Jazz out of the discussion, what is left are _Pop_ & _Non-Pop (classical.)_
> 
> Re: metal -- "It is," as the cliché has it, "what it is." -- which leaves it squarely in the Pop Music arena.
> 
> I mean, dress it up with a title if you like, but it is still pop music. I'm more curious to know why you think it is not pop music!


because its not popular at all I'm the only one who has liked it in all 34 schools i have gone to


----------



## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> because its not popular at all I'm the only one who has liked it in all 34 schools i have gone to


In academic circles, Popular and Classical denote the tradition the music came from, rather than anything to do with popularity in the sense of massive worldwide appeal and, very importantly, this has _nothing to do with quality_. Classical music is primarily a learned, written tradition based on live performance and interpretation of a score that remains more or less constant. Modern popular music is primarily a recorded, non-written tradition, based on the basic form of a song (even in instrumental pieces, the forms are song-like), which can differ significantly from performance to performance in all but its most basic elements. Popular music since the invention of the gramophone has been predominantly spread through recordings, with new musicians learning the majority of their technique by ear and intuition rather than formal study.


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

Mahlerian said:


> In academic circles, Popular and Classical denote the tradition the music came from, rather than anything to do with popularity in the sense of massive worldwide appeal and, very importantly, this has _nothing to do with quality_. Classical music is primarily a learned, written tradition based on live performance and interpretation of a score that remains more or less constant. Modern popular music is primarily a recorded, non-written tradition, based on the basic form of a song (even in instrumental pieces, the forms are song-like), which can differ significantly from performance to performance in all but its most basic elements. Popular music since the invention of the gramophone has been predominantly spread through recordings, with new musicians learning the majority of their technique by ear and intuition rather than formal study.


ok well is that bad not everyone has the time to learn music theory


----------



## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> ok well is that bad not everyone has the time to learn music theory


Not necessarily. Theory is only a part of training. I'm just saying that even those composers who are "self-taught" in classical music (relatively rare, but not unheard of) still learned the same things as everyone else, being aware of written tradition and historical methods, even those that they don't themselves use. Composition of a piece of music is based on an awareness of how these techniques can be used and manipulated, often through short term distortion and alteration, to obtain specific effects. A "chord" in classical music is generally made up of four or more distinct parts which are freely mobile and not tied to a specific function, meaning that the same chord can easily mean two different things, even within the same key and piece.

A guitarist in metal will likely learn their technique by ear, from listening to other metal guitarists with the help of scale and chord charts etc. Composition of a song will come about through collective improvisation, using whatever techniques are available more or less as-is, just in different combinations. A chord in most popular music is a block without any moving parts, which nearly always has a single function and meaning.

Speaking on a personal level, the frequent key and rhythm changes of much of the faster, more complex metal music out there sound unmotivated (meaning, I don't hear a musical reason for them) and awkward to me.


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

Mahlerian said:


> Not necessarily. Theory is only a part of training. I'm just saying that even those composers who are "self-taught" in classical music (relatively rare, but not unheard of) still learned the same things as everyone else, being aware of written tradition and historical methods, even those that they don't themselves use. Composition of a piece of music is based on an awareness of how these techniques can be used and manipulated, often through short term distortion and alteration, to obtain specific effects. A "chord" in classical music is generally made up of four or more distinct parts which are freely mobile and not tied to a specific function, meaning that the same chord can easily mean two different things, even within the same key and piece.
> 
> A guitarist in metal will likely learn their technique by ear, from listening to other metal guitarists with the help of scale and chord charts etc. Composition of a song will come about through collective improvisation, using whatever techniques are available more or less as-is, just in different combinations. A chord in most popular music is a block without any moving parts, which nearly always has a single function and meaning.
> 
> Speaking on a personal level, the frequent key and rhythm changes of much of the faster, more complex metal music out there sound unmotivated (meaning, I don't hear a musical reason for them) and awkward to me.


most of what you are saying makes sense i just don't get why there has to be a musical reason behind something can't you put something in a song to evoke some sort of emotional response from the listener?


----------



## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> most of what you are saying makes sense i just don't get why there has to be a musical reason behind something can't you put something in a song to evoke some sort of emotional response from the listener?


It amounts to the same thing. I'm not saying you have to know, in terms of theory, what you're doing or why, I'm just saying that every element needs to work together, and you shouldn't simply add something to something else without thinking about the effect. In the case of the unmotivated key/meter shifts, it's generally particularly awkward because there's nothing leading up to it, nor is there anything afterwards to balance it out. I think that some people enjoy that awkward effect because it's such a jolt to the musical senses, but it's like a plot twist in a movie that acts as a deus ex machina. Doing it well can feel right because there has been foreshadowing or because it explains elements that you didn't know needed explanation before, but doing it poorly just ends up feeling like a cheap gimmick.


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

Mahlerian said:


> It amounts to the same thing. I'm not saying you have to know, in terms of theory, what you're doing or why, I'm just saying that every element needs to work together, and you shouldn't simply add something to something else without thinking about the effect. In the case of the unmotivated key/meter shifts, it's generally particularly awkward because there's nothing leading up to it, nor is there anything afterwards to balance it out. I think that some people enjoy that awkward effect because it's such a jolt to the musical senses, but it's like a plot twist in a movie that acts as a deus ex machina. Doing it well can feel right because there has been foreshadowing or because it explains elements that you didn't know needed explanation before, but doing it poorly just ends up feeling like a cheap gimmick.


can you give me some sort of example? especially a death metal song if you can.


----------



## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> yes that may be true but why the hell would you compare metal to POP like justin bieber or selena gomez. People who play in metal bands are far more dedicated and no matter what you say there is plenty of metal that is extremely hard to play.


Why, pray tell, do you so desperately want to divorce metal from pop music? It is as if your identity is in some way connected to the music you listen to.. Isn't it? Who cares about the label? Your identity won't be compromised if you happen to listen to "pop music" in your free time!

As for symphonic metal/neoclassical metal: I, in my very limited knowledge of metal, opine that much of it is an attempt to appear sophisticated through the "classical" label. That sort of charlatanry doesn't fit "the spirit of metal" at all, does it? _Musically_, I feel the musicians are trying very hard to make it smooth, rotund, polished. All this mincing makes it so that the very "edge" of metal, which distinguished it as "rebellious", is lost! I like my metal as I like my partners: hard, rugged, tough and mean. ( -- I kid.)

Scrap that: my favorite metal is the kind involving Orson Welles!


----------



## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> Neoclassical metal? Nay? Or yay?
> Here's an example:
> 
> 
> ...


Big, huge NAY from me, and I'm a fan of some genres of metal (progressive, technical, avant-garde).

This style is beyond boring to me. There's nothing going on.

There are some forms of metal (and other rock) that does take some influence from classical, but they do it in a way that is not cliche.

And like others have said, classical, especially 20th and 21st classical is far from relaxing in any way.


----------



## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> can you give me some sort of example? especially a death metal song if you can.


I don't claim to be an expert in a genre that simply doesn't appeal to me at all, but in this video you posted:

Within a few seconds we have a contrast of scale and rhythm, but the shift feels awkward and that awkwardness is simply ignored, rather than taken advantage of for gaining energy. It's like sticking a block of stone next to a block of iron, even though they're of very different colors and materials, and just using that to make a building. It's striking as an effect, but I don't see any reason to do it other than to be struck by it, and it looks impractical.





The contrasts of mode (scale type), rhythm, and harmony here may seem just about as sudden, but to me they seem to have a purpose in the design; every contrast is there for an audible reason.


----------



## OperaGeek (Aug 15, 2014)

Simon Moon said:


> Big, huge NAY from me, and I'm a fan of some genres of metal (progressive, technical, avant-garde).
> 
> This style is beyond boring to me. There's nothing going on.
> 
> ...


Agree with all of the above - this stuff has been done to death, if indeed it was ever really born in the first place. There are, however, some metal musicians out there who clearly have been inspired by the classical masters, and who successfully combine classical and traditional metal elements to create something of quality. They typically also offer genuinely first-class musical and technical skills. Check out this one as an example - these guys can really play:


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

Mahlerian said:


> I don't claim to be an expert in a genre that simply doesn't appeal to me at all, but in this video you posted:
> 
> Within a few seconds we have a contrast of scale and rhythm, but the shift feels awkward and that awkwardness is simply ignored, rather than taken advantage of for gaining energy. It's like sticking a block of stone next to a block of iron, even though they're of very different colors and materials, and just using that to make a building. It's striking as an effect, but I don't see any reason to do it other than to be struck by it, and it looks impractical.
> 
> ...


hmmm maybe thats just the appeal to it and i don't know maybe metal heads like the random qualities maybe? are you impressed by Obscuras work?


----------



## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> hmmm maybe thats just the appeal to it and i don't know maybe metal heads like the random qualities maybe?


Perhaps. Like I said, I'm just telling you the way I hear it.



> are you impressed by Obscuras work?


It really doesn't interest me very much, to be honest. I know how much all of this means to you, because the music you enjoy can be very important to a person, so I'm sorry I can't really go along with you here.


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

Mahlerian said:


> Perhaps. Like I said, I'm just telling you the way I hear it.
> 
> It really doesn't interest me very much, to be honest. I know how much all of this means to you, because the music you enjoy can be very important to a person, so I'm sorry I can't really go along with you here.


No no dude! That's ok I was just wondering but I do not expect classical fans to be into death metal nor do I think death metal fans would be interested anything less interesting.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

The Sound Of Perseverance said:


> because its not popular at all I'm the only one who has liked it* in all 34 schools i have gone to*


14, and 34 schools? Your folks move around a bit, eh?


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

PetrB said:


> 14, and 34 schools? Your folks move around a bit, eh?


sorry i meant 4 haha


----------



## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

Don't worry, you still haven't seen much. Keep your eyes peeled. A funny stage in life where you know the least, but you talk the most, haha.


----------



## The Sound Of Perseverance (Aug 20, 2014)

haha thats very true. ok ill see where life takes me!


----------



## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

OperaGeek said:


> Agree with all of the above - this stuff has been done to death, if indeed it was ever really born in the first place. There are, however, some metal musicians out there who clearly have been inspired by the classical masters, and who successfully combine classical and traditional metal elements to create something of quality. They typically also offer genuinely first-class musical and technical skills. Check out this one as an example - these guys can really play:


I used to be a pretty big fan of Symphony X. I think they reached their peek with The Odyssey. Micheal Romeo is a really good guitarist.

Here's a metal musician that takes his influence from the 20th century. Ron Jarzombek.

Here is a clip of a 12 tone piece he composed for his band Blotted Science. Some pretty complex stuff -


----------



## Guest (Aug 27, 2014)

I watched that just now. Actually kinda cool stuff. That being said, I was following the little light-up note-chart thing and I'm not sure whether or not that qualifies as the 12-tone technique we know of by one Arnold Schoenberg. But hell, you have to make up your own formulas to do anything interesting at this point.


----------

