# Why is Bruckner 6 the 'ugly duckling' of the cycle?



## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern

Title just about sums it up. I've seen academic criticism of the work in terms of vague, oblique statements like "the work is problematic/difficult" and that's why it is rarely performed. I've never been able to grasp this as I have been listening to this piece for years and it gets better and better like a fine wine. To me, it's like the turning point Bruckner's compositional skills reach its peak and full maturity, by which he then proceeded to crank out the 7th, 8th, and 9th. It is a far more mature and masterful work than its predecessors (which is not to disparage the previous symphonies whatsoever, I'm just saying Bruckner keeps getting better and better with time). The themes are outrageously beautiful and memorable, his technique more refined than ever. The first movement is absolutely EPIC (to use a word that's become so hackneyed and banal in its usage, I think it fits here to a tee), and the slow movement is to die for. The scherzo perhaps pales compared to his others, but it's a playful and fun movement and comparing them is really splitting hairs anyways, and the finale is triumphant and moving, with a distinct "yearning" feeling that pervades Bruckner's work, but I've seen this movement disparaged in equally vague terms like "problematic/difficult". 

As a side note, I think Bruckner is more of an acquired taste anyway. I'm certain so many people who gave him a first listen (including myself) where bored to tears by ponderous, 20 minute long movements with constant repetitions of thematic material, flow disrupting pauses, and seemingly random musical rambling that seems to go nowhere before finally realizing the subtlety and beauty in his writing that has its own unique flow and charm. I think Bruckner's a tough nut to crack due to his stylistic quirks, and it took me so long for me to actually 'get' him. There are way more accessible composers out there than Bruckner.


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## Heck148

I've never regarded B6 as an ugly duckling...it's one of my favorites...
My real introduction was Solti/CSO's superb version on Decca...this one is just brimming with tension, excitement and drama, right from the get-go....the nervous "radio-telegraph, morse code" figure in the violins immediately sets the tone, and it never lets up...the slow mvt is not Bruckner's best, but it's ok....love the rest.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I have never understood this derogatory nickname. I think it’s a fantastic symphony, even if it is top-heavy like the 7th. The first movement is a lot of fun to hear, and the Adagio is gorgeous - not as massive and cosmic as the Adagios of 7-9, but still one of his most moving creations. I like the scherzo a lot but think the finale is where it fails somewhat. Even so it fully deserves its place among Bruckner’s other masterpieces IMO.


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## Eclectic Al

I've always liked it. (It's number 5 which I don't get from the number 4 onwards symphonies.)
I have a recording from Kent Nagano that I like, so maybe try a performance by someone away from the usual suspects among Bruckner conductors to see if that strikes a chord.


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## mbhaub

Heck148 said:


> I've never regarded B6 as an ugly duckling...it's one of my favorites...
> My real introduction was Solti/CSO's superb version on Decca...this one is just brimming with tension, excitement and drama, right from the get-go....the nervous "radio-telegraph, morse code" figure in the violins immediately sets the tone, and it never lets up...the slow mvt is not Bruckner's best, but it's ok....love the rest.In


Indeed! And to think that Solti's recording has been disparaged by so many. I played the daylights out of that recording in college. The coda of the first movement is utterly electrifying the way Solti managed it - thrilling is to put it mildly.

It's one of the few Bruckner symphonies for which there is virtually no argument about versions/editions. It is a very difficult thing to play however, and it doesn't have the great tunes of some of the others. But it's one of my favorites, too, and I've never thought of it as an Ugly Duckling - that title belongs to no. 2.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I have never understood this derogatory nickname. I think it's a fantastic symphony, even if it is top-heavy like the 7th. The first movement is a lot of fun to hear, and the Adagio is gorgeous - not as massive and cosmic as the Adagios of 7-9, but still one of his most moving creations.* I like the scherzo a lot but think the finale is where it fails somewhat*. Even so it fully deserves its place among Bruckner's other masterpieces IMO.


I'd like to hear your reasoning here because I agree somewhat. Even though I love it, it does pale in comparison to the other other finales..


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## Heck148

Eclectic Al said:


> I've always liked it. (It's number 5 which I don't get from the number 4 onwards symphonies.)
> I have a recording from Kent Nagano that I like, so maybe try a performance by someone away from the usual suspects among Bruckner conductors to see if that strikes a chord.


I agree!! #5 just doesn't click with me....too disconnected, or episodic, or something....Solti does about the best of the many that I've heard, but even there, I much prefer his other symphonies - 3,4,6,7,8,9


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## Allegro Con Brio

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> I'd like to hear your reasoning here because I agree somewhat. Even though I love it, it does pale in comparison to the other other finales..


Its thematic material doesn't seem as memorable as the rest of the symphony, and I'm not quite left with the same sense of satisfaction of Bruckner tying up all the thematic pieces into a satisfactory whole as I am with the other symphonies. I don't think I've found the ideal recording of the 6th for me yet.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Its thematic material doesn't seem as memorable as the rest of the symphony, and I'm not quite left with the same sense of satisfaction of Bruckner tying up all the thematic pieces into a satisfactory whole as I am with the other symphonies. I don't think I've found the ideal recording of the 6th for me yet.


One theme that really stands out to me is the lyrical 2nd theme with the counterpoint between the violins and cellos, and I like the climax towards the end with the brass blaring against the cascading strings. There's good stuff in there but I agree that other finales are a step up and give a stronger sense of conclusion.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern

Eclectic Al said:


> I've always liked it. (*It's number 5 which I don't get* from the number 4 onwards symphonies.)
> I have a recording from Kent Nagano that I like, so maybe try a performance by someone away from the usual suspects among Bruckner conductors to see if that strikes a chord.


I don't get No.5 either! I've only listened to it once and couldn't make it past the first movement without getting bored to tears. Precisely as @Heck148 put it above, something about it seems disjointed to me.

I'll have to revisit it because, like I said in the OP, Bruckner is an acquired taste and the feel of the No.5 is something I'll have to let grown on me. I'm sure people love it for a reason.


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## Brahmsianhorn

I like the Klemp 6th. Not as much as 4, 7-9, but enough to keep around.

I have the wartime Furt 5th, and the work still doesn’t quite click for me, and that’s saying a lot!


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## UniversalTuringMachine

Only a true Brucknerian knows that the 5th is the greatest of them all!

(Please don't take this too seriously)


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## Allegro Con Brio

I love the first three movements of 5, but I simply have not come to terms with the gigantic fugal finale. I’ve listened to it several times in several performances and even watched a YouTube video breaking it down bar-by-bar, and it just seems like a bunch of disjointed, rambling ideas.


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## Heck148

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I simply have not come to terms with the gigantic fugal finale....... it just seems like a bunch of disjointed, rambling ideas.


That's how it comes across to me as well.


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## Art Rock

I quite like the 6th, for me on par with the 3d, but below 4, 8 and especially 9. Like others, the 5th is for me the odd one out, I even prefer the 2nd over it. That said, I like them all, even the 0 (the 00 less though).


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## CnC Bartok

Bruckner 6 is one of my favourites, an opinion voiced by many here (to whom I raise a glass in reverence)

It's an "ugly duckling" (wouldn't "Cinderella" be a better label?) because it's a bit shorter and a bit less epic than the other Symphonies. I don't see it as weaker, more trivial or less Brucknerian than the others.

It also has the advantage that it is available in one format only, you just have to choose Nowak or Haas, not countless revisions and dates. Poor Anton!


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## UniversalTuringMachine

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I love the first three movements of 5, but I simply have not come to terms with the gigantic fugal finale. I've listened to it several times in several performances and even watched a YouTube video breaking it down bar-by-bar, and it just seems like a bunch of disjointed, rambling ideas.


It's an unparalleled experience when the finale is done right. It's the unity of simple motivic elements that give meaning and purpose to everything. It's music with a profound sense of predestination and the sublime beauty of grandeur.


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## Malx

UniversalTuringMachine said:


> It's an unparalleled experience when the finale is done right. It's the unity of simple motivic elements that give meaning and purpose to everything. It's music with a profound sense of predestination and the sublime beauty of grandeur.


Which recording(s) would you recommend?


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## UniversalTuringMachine

Malx said:


> Which recording(s) would you recommend?


Karajan BPO: grandiose, amazing sonority
Jochum ACO 86 (live): has everything you want, the pulse is wonderfully sustained
Furtwangler BPO 42: extremely romantic, swooning rubato
Celibidache MPO (live): exuberant and surprising not so slow, you can hear every little idea in the finale (with the right proportions and balance)
Wand NDR (live): everything sounds right under the magic wand so you can just be fully immersed in the music
Skrowaczewski SRSO: full of wonderful shades of colors, light and dance-like, graceful and expressive


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## Enthusiast

^ Those are excellent recommendations for Bruckner 5 (well, I wouldn't have included Karajan - not my favourite Bruckner conductor).

To return to the thread, 6 is no ugly duckling but it does need to be done well. Klemperer and Horst Stein both made great records of it.


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## D Smith

I've never considered the 6th an ugly duckling though I agree it can be harder to get right. In addition to the recordings already mentioned I can highly recommend the one by Heinz Bongartz and Leipzig Gewandhaus.


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## elgar's ghost

I can't see the 6th as an ugly duckling in terms of a listening experience - for me it only has outlier status because of there being relatively few recordings which seem to convincingly nail it. I posed a similar question on an old thread as to whether the 6th is a tough nut to crack from a conducting/playing perspective.


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## flamencosketches

D Smith said:


> I've never considered the 6th an ugly duckling though I agree it can be harder to get right. In addition to the recordings already mentioned I can highly recommend the one by Heinz Bongartz and Leipzig Gewandhaus.


Bongartz/Leipzig is my favorite Bruckner 6. Amazing. Though Barenboim/Berlin is quite good too.

I still need to hear the Klemperer, and I've heard Celibidache's is one of the highlights of his Munich cycle


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## padraic

It's certainly not the ugly duckling of his entire symphonic output; I think most would put it above his first four symphonies (n.b. Bruckner wrote 11 symphonies). That said as much as I enjoy this work I cannot rate it higher than the two which proceed it or the three that succeed it.


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## Superflumina

No idea why it's regarded that way. The recording by Günter Wand with the Kölner Rundfunk-Sinfonie-Orchester is my favorite, Skrowaczewski is great as well, as he usually is with Bruckner.


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## ORigel

I like it, but not as much as 5, 7, 8, and 9. Its first movement coda in particular stands out.


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## ORigel

The Study Symphony is the ugly duckling of Bruckner's output.


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## flamencosketches

Man, I love Bruckner 6. The first movement is an amazing synthesis of basic themes, quite different from other Brucknerian first movements. Equally amazing is the slow movement. Maybe it's due to overexposure to some of the others, but lately I'm finding it to be my favorite Bruckner symphony.


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## elgar's ghost

Horst Stein's recording of the 6th is one of my two or three favourites - what a pity he never had a crack at the whole cycle. Are there any other recordings lurking about apart from his 2nd and 6th on Decca?


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## Azol

Instead, ask "What makes Bruckner's Sixth a popular "ugly duckling" candidate?"

Maybe because people see it as "most different" in the towering achievement of symphonic genre that is Nos. 3-9 sequence?

By the way, we can easily nickname the Sixth "Tragic" due to the fact B6 Adagio includes proper funeral march episode - the only instance in Bruckner symphonic output aside from chorale in B7 Adagio.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Does anyone else hear the first movement as being a very clear inspiration for film composers, especially in action movies? For me that menacing “Morse code” rhythm and the heroic brass theme on top of it instantly reminds me of a spy or superhero movie.


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## Azol

Yes, that's some of the most accessible Bruckner right there (apart from B4 Scherzo) and sometimes I can sing some of it just to amuse myself (and annoy my wife) :lol:


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern

I absolutely love it. It sets such a suspenseful and mysterious mood right from the get go.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern

Azol said:


> Yes, that's some of the most accessible Bruckner right there (apart from B4 Scherzo) and sometimes I can sing some of it just to amuse myself (and annoy my wife) :lol:


Hahaha I like to ding out the opening on my Yamaha keyboard all the time with my less than stellar playing, I think your wife gets the same treatment my boyfriend does. :lol:

EDIT: It's funny how you mention the Scherzo from the 4th being very accessible. That was def my gateway into Bruckner when I was a teenager.


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## Azol

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> EDIT: It's funny how you mention the Scherzo from the 4th being very accessible. That was def my gateway into Bruckner when I was a teenager.


Mine was the B7 Adagio, I listened to someone on the radio explaining the difference between versions of B7 Adagio (with or without percussion) and I literally ran to the record shop to get myself a full performance asap, I was spellbound. They didn't have the B7 but B9 with Giulini instead and it blew my head off  Was Bruckner fan ever since.


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## NLAdriaan

UniversalTuringMachine said:


> Only a true Brucknerian knows that the 5th is the greatest of them all!
> 
> (Please don't take this too seriously)


Yes, I am with you (for having #5 as my favorite).

#6 indeed is my least favorite (admitted that I never really gave #00-2 a serious chance).


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## Ravn

I don't view the 6th as an ugly duckling - I don't view any of Bruckner's symphonies as that. I do prefer 3, 4, 5, 7, 8 and 9 to the sixth, but I am struggling to figure out why I do so, since I actually prefer the scherzo of the 6th to all other Bruckner scherzi. Maybe it is time for a new Bruckner project and re-evaluate Bruckner's symphonic pecking order.

Anyway, for anyone new to Bruckner the 6th is the symphony I would recommend (possibly along with the 4th). It is a brilliant symphony that is quite accessible and not too long.



NLAdriaan said:


> Yes, I am with you (for having #5 as my favorite).
> 
> #6 indeed is my least favorite (_admitted that I never really gave #00-2 a serious chance_).


Then you have a reason for a Bruckner project this fall as well!:devil:


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## bz3

From 3 onwards they are all masterpieces in Bruckner. I happen to think 1 is a masterpiece as well. 6 is no lesser, just not as popular as the works around it. I recall reading that the 1st movement is hard to pull off, and I'd believe it. The infamous Klemperer's 1st movement just still doesn't do it for me and it's purely for aesthetic reasons (Klemperer's Mahler 2 is the only one I'll listen to, so it's nothing to do with the interpreter).

It does has a similar 'back half' to 7, in that they are more workmanlike than sprawling. I don't regard that as a weakness, both are top-heavy for a reason - their first two movements say enough! Despite their length, the only Bruckner symphony I regard as truly in the Mahler/Shostakovich high Romantic style is the 8th. The rest he is quite economical, in his own idiom of course.


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## cyberstudio

In my opinion the 6th is the ugly duckling of the cycle because it is the hardest to conduct (or interpret). What does "majestoso" even mean? I used to think the 6th was like the 7th in being front-heavy. Now I realize it is not true. The finale must have the appropriate heft to balance the first movement. The outer movements should have equal weighing, but the finale has all of this tempest in teapot stuff that is hard to make it sound coherent. Only the right maestro will turn this ugly duckling into a beautiful swan.

There is some similarity to Mahler 7th in that it is considered the underdog of his cycle. But the reason is exactly the same. Mahler's 7th is also very hard to get right, harder than any of his other symphonies.


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## Eclectic Al

cyberstudio said:


> In my opinion the 6th is the ugly duckling of the cycle because it is the hardest to conduct (or interpret). What does "majestoso" even mean? I used to think the 6th was like the 7th in being front-heavy. Now I realize it is not true. The finale must have the appropriate heft to balance the first movement. The outer movements should have equal weighing, but the finale has all of this tempest in teapot stuff that is hard to make it sound coherent. Only the right maestro will turn this ugly duckling into a beautiful swan.
> 
> There is some similarity to Mahler 7th in that it is considered the underdog of his cycle. But the reason is exactly the same. Mahler's 7th is also very hard to get right, harder than any of his other symphonies.


Any suggestions for recordings where they get it right then? For Bruckner 6 or Mahler 7 or both.


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## Azol

Aaand... by popular demand...


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## cyberstudio

Eclectic Al said:


> Any suggestions for recordings where they get it right then? For Bruckner 6 or Mahler 7 or both.


If I put your question in the context of the OP, I think Celibidache would be able to "convert" anyone who doesn't see the 6th's greatness. When we mention Celibidache it usually goes like, "it's a transcending spiritual experience, but it is highly unconventional" and then a discussion of how long the symphonies become ensues. However, the 5th and 6th are special in his Munich "Zen" cycle. No apologies whatsoever need to be given. The pair is both conventional (in the good sense) and transcending!

The latest Haitink on BR Klassik was really good. I didn't know Haitink could be this good at Bruckner! (He is one of the few conductors renowned in both Bruckner and Mahler, when most are only in one camp.) If I don't have enough time and I want to listen to only the first movement that is my go to. But unfortunately, he seems to run out of steam in the finale. He seems to be doing what many others are doing: to avoid sounding incoherent, the finale is toned down and smoothed out. Doing so relegates the finale to second class citizen status. Thanks Azol for the YouTube and I had Simone Young, Karajan, Barenboim (video on Blu-ray), Wand (Munich), Eugene Jochum. All of them are good with their good points. But all things considered, Celibidache knew his Bruckner from start to finish.

Mahler's 7th has a similar enigmatic finale, which is even harder to get right. I have not collected enough recordings yet and I haven't found that elusive 7th that works for me yet.


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## Azol

If you are looking for great Mahler 7 (which is offtopic but still), turn your eye to Bernstein, this is a guy who basically rediscovered the greatness of M7 and it's brilliant throughout.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Azol said:


> Aaand... by popular demand...


I listened to the 6th for the first tine after seeing this


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## Merl

BlackAdderLXX said:


> I listened to the 6th for the first tine after seeing this


...........................
.


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## Knorf

I've never thought Bruckner 6 was an "ugly duckling." And I don't understand why anyone would say so! I regard it as an one of the essential Bruckner Symphonies. 

(To be fair, the only Bruckner symphony I might grudgingly accept as inessential is the unnumbered F minor.)

The Sixth was my "gateway drug" into the Brucknerian universe. Previously, I had been suspicious of Bruckner as overlong and dull. The Sixth convinced me otherwise, and honestly then I was hooked.

My first Bruckner 6 was Karajan/Berlin, and while I still like that one very much, I think my favorite is Young/Hamburg.


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## Merl

I wa looking thru the car USB for a Bruckner 6 today and found a folder with all the symphonies on performed by various conductors. Most are Stan the Man's later recordings but the 6th is the one below. As I've said before the later Haitink recordings were always the best for me. This one is a killer performance.


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## Kollwitz

The Haitink BRSO Bruckner 6 really is very good indeed, definitely more characterful and compelling than his also enjoyable early Concertgebouw recording. With the BRSO he takes the adagio pretty fast, but with such flow and intensity (even sensuality). For me it joins the other movements together better than some of the slower recordings. Haitink handles the rhythms of the first movement really well too. Finale feels fitting. On a basic level, I really like the oboist's sound. I'd be interested in what others think of it, as I rate it very highly indeed. 

For a long time Bruckner 6 was my least favourite of the 'mature' symphonies (4-9, even 2-9). Perhaps some of the melodic material isn't as memorable and it lacks the monumental, overwhelming qualities of the late symphonies. The Haitink BRSO recording really helped me to fall in love with it (more than Klemperer had) and now it's up there with my favourite symphonies from any composer. I saw a performance of it by the CBSO, conducted by Omer Meir Wellber (a late replacement for an ill Mirga G-T) in March this year. The crowd was a bit sparse as coronavirus loomed, but both conductor and orchestra really got stuck in. It was absolutely gripping from start to finish, one of the best experiences I've had in a concert hall.


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