# Which Webern Symphony Do You Listen To Most Often?



## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

Webern wrote about one symphony. Which one do you listen to most often? It wasn't quite a competitive time for symphonies around that time, with Mahler having completed his epic symphonies and so had Sibelius managed his own. 

I think his first symphony remains his most original. It was written in a dodecaphonic language between 1927-8 and dedicated to his daughter Christine, abiding to the austere and atonal qualities of his brand of Serialism.


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## gregorx (Jan 25, 2020)

I voted "I listen to it all as often as itself" because, while making no sense, it seems to capture the spirit of Webern (I think), one of my favorite composers. There was a reason that the Romantic symphony came to a crashing end with Mahler. I think a lot of guys just backed off of symphonies altogether. They seemed to have reached their conclusion. The Modern, one movement orchestral works were (to me) a big improvement. Still, Webern could have done more with the orchestra. Maybe he would have if he'd had the chance.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

gregorx said:


> Still, Webern could have done more with the orchestra. Maybe he would have if he'd had the chance.


I think you're right; it is very muted. But he must have had a good reason, because in the past, he had shown that he could ring every last drop from an orchestra.

The piece sounds to me like Heinrich Isaac found a time machine, ended up in Webern's living room, took a crash course in dodecacophony, and brought the Renaissance into the 20th Century.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I most often listen to the Webern Symphony that Webern wrote. It is sometimes referred to as Opus 21. Though brief, it is highly "organic" in structure. Well worth 10 minutes of listening time and hours of contemplation.

When I _do_ want _less_ music than Webern supplies in the Opus 21, I simply remove the "n" and listen to either or both of the symphonies of (Carl Maria von) Weber. Time-wise they are not as brief as the aforementioned Opus 21, but when one factors in the time it takes to contemplate either or both of these works there remains still much more time left over than the Webern work allows. Alas ....


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

gregorx said:


> Still, Webern could have done more with the orchestra. Maybe he would have if he'd had the chance.


Have you listened to 6 Pieces for Orchestra and Five Pieces for Orchestra? These compositions utilize a more colorful palette and are more atmospheric and expressive than Op. 21. The Symphony has a much different aesthetic, being more restrained and geometrically pointilistic until the variations kick in.

While I'm just a Webern enthusiast and far from an expert, I personally don't think Op. 21 captures the spirit of Webern, or at least it doesn't give you the full picture. It's not the first thing I'd show somebody to try and introduce them to his music. But this is all just opinion


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## SeptimalTritone (Jul 7, 2014)

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> Have you listened to 6 Pieces for Orchestra and Five Pieces for Orchestra? These compositions utilize a more colorful palette and are more atmospheric and expressive than Op. 21. The Symphony has a much different aesthetic, being more restrained and geometrically pointilistic until the variations kick in.
> 
> While I'm just a Webern enthusiast and far from an expert, I personally don't think Op. 21 captures the spirit of Webern, or at least it doesn't give you the full picture. It's not the first thing I'd show somebody to try and introduce them to his music. But this is all just opinion


You are right that e.g. the Funeral March in the 6 Pieces is earth-shattering in its emotional directness, but op 21 achieves something Webern didn't achieve before and was integral to his late style. I wouldn't describe op 21 mov 1 as solely pointillistic - it's _contrapuntal_ and driven by linear motion. Each Klangfarben voice in the double inversion canon gives a sense of deliberate progression, a kind of harmonic progression.

Also important is that each pitch class is fixed in octave register, giving each pitch an identity and sense of recognition. This allows for lots of recall and interplay. Notice how the clarinet's measure 7-8 is the same as the horn's 5-6. Or compare the clarinet in measures 6-8 and 14-17 with the viola in 11-13 and 15-17 here and note their recall, overlap, and interplay. Notice how even though pitches are recalled, the progression of the whole ensemble makes us feel like we're constantly moving to a different place. This constellation of recall and progression built through inversion canon and pitch fixing is a signature of late Webern, occurring in op 22 mov 1 and many other late works.

(Regarding the double inversion canons, they are there, but nobody has to know about them - they're pretty hidden and non-obvious. No need to listen "for" them! Nevertheless, they are integral in setting up the sense of forward progression and allowing for the note recall and interplay. And I can also assure that the subconscious can pick up on more of the interplay and recall and the conscious mind can.)

Further, with the strict discipline, Webern is able to achieve sections of climax, and their power is fueled by the subconscious sense of the inevitability of their notes! Here at 5:00 up to about 5:30 is the climactic section, to me nostalgic and sorrowful.

It's such a perfect constellation of counterpoint, subtle recall, instrumental identity, rotating color, and changes in intensity emerging organically. To me, I get a sense of more value in each note than in any other composer.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

SeptimalTritone said:


> You are right that e.g. the Funeral March in the 6 Pieces is earth-shattering in its emotional directness, but op 21 achieves something Webern didn't achieve before and was integral to his late style. I wouldn't describe op 21 mov 1 as solely pointillistic - it's _contrapuntal_ and driven by linear motion. Each Klangfarben voice in the double inversion canon gives a sense of deliberate progression, a kind of harmonic progression.
> 
> Also important is that each pitch class is fixed in octave register, giving each pitch an identity and sense of recognition. This allows for lots of recall and interplay. Notice how the clarinet's measure 7-8 is the same as the horn's 5-6. Or compare the clarinet in measures 6-8 and 14-17 with the viola in 11-13 and 15-17 here and note their recall, overlap, and interplay. Notice how even though pitches are recalled, the progression of the whole ensemble makes us feel like we're constantly moving to a different place. This constellation of recall and progression built through inversion canon and pitch fixing is a signature of late Webern, occurring in op 22 mov 1 and many other late works.
> 
> ...


Interesting post. This'll give me a deeper appreciation of Op. 21. I know that feeling of inevitably you're describing, particularly when the horn repeats that call each time with growing alarming intensity (that feels like the climax of the 1st movement to me, i'm not sure that coincides with your timestamp).


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## jkl (May 4, 2021)

Is there a good recording you might recommend on this symphony? I have not heard it before. Thank you.


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

5 Pieces for Orchestra


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast (Jun 3, 2020)

jkl said:


> Is there a good recording you might recommend on this symphony? I have not heard it before. Thank you.


I love Webern's music, but I only know of two interpretations, one by Boulez (who recorded all of Webern's works) and the Berlin Philharmonic and another by Sinopoli with the Staatskapelle Dresden. You can't go wrong with either one, perhaps Boulez's is a little bit more restrained.


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## jkl (May 4, 2021)

allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> I love Webern's music, but I only know of two interpretations, one by Boulez (who recorded all of Webern's works) and the Berlin Philharmonic and another by Sinopoli with the Staatskapelle Dresden. You can't go wrong with either one, perhaps Boulez's is a little bit more restrained.


I might listen the Boulez version. He conducts well. Thank you!


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast (Jun 3, 2020)

Great conductor of course -and composer!


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## bz3 (Oct 15, 2015)

Not being much on Webern myself (it's Berg or early Schoenberg for me if I'm forced to listen to second Viennese school), I'll take a refreshing Coca-Cola


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