# Why is there an F# in the Aminor 13th chord please?



## ohdearme

Hello, I 've just joined. 
I have looked up the spelling of an A minor 13th (with dominant 7th chord.).

Why is there an F# and not an F in the 13th when in the key of Aminor, F is not sharpened?
I'm going wrong somewhere and can't work it out.

Regards everyone.


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## pianozach

Because an F in an Am chord would be a #5, making is a half diminished chord, or an Aø. Thinking of the F as a b6 would also create a pretty ugly and tonally useless chord with the E and Fnatural beating against each other.

Maybe it would be easier to understand if you thought of putting the b6 in a Cm chord: C Eb G Ab . . . . That serves no traditional harmonic use. Weird, huh? 

It's just an accepted usage - Am6 is A C E F#, Cm6 is C Eb G A.


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## bagpipers

Theory has a major default clause so even in minor it goes to the major interval.

Here is the good news and I'm a composer so,do what you want and ignore music theory,music theory is made to be broken,so break it.
In medieval times it was a temptation of the devil to go to the 5th but people broke the rules.Then parallel 5ths became a no no in theory.Then Mozart used parallel 5ths.

Do what you want and don't take theory to seriously,if theory had been taken seriously by the great composers we would still be writing madrigals.


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## Nate Miller

the common practice with upper extensions is to use the 6th from the major scale as your 13th. otherwise you would see the chord given as a flat 13.

so unless the chord is given as a flat 13th, you would use the F# with an a minor 13th

so you have: A C E G B D# F# or a B major triad over an A minor 7th

if you specifically dont want the sharp 11th, then you might see the chord written as "A minor 9 add 13" or "A minor 9 flat 13" and all that sort of stuff.

Its just the common practice for notating chords


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## Vasks

In addition, there is an F# in A minor if the ascending melodic minor scale form is used


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## Nate Miller

Vasks said:


> In addition, there is an F# in A minor if the ascending melodic minor scale form is used



exactly. I believe that's why the convention is the way it is....the 13th is really coming from the melodic minor


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## ohdearme

Thank you all for replying so promptly. I have been playing guitar chords for years and this has suddenly jumped at me. I'm going to have to think about all your comments and I think that I'll be back soon.
Best
Alan


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## EdwardBast

bagpipers said:


> Theory has a major default clause so even in minor it goes to the major interval.
> 
> Here is the good news and I'm a composer so,do what you want and ignore music theory,music theory is made to be broken,so break it.
> *In medieval times it was a temptation of the devil to go to the 5th but people broke the rules.* *Then parallel 5ths became a no no in theory.Then Mozart used parallel 5ths*.
> 
> Do what you want and don't take theory to seriously,if *theory had been taken seriously by the great composers* we would still be writing madrigals.


This is incorrect. Where did Mozart write parallel fifths?

Theory was taken very seriously by the nearly all of the great composers.



pianozach said:


> *Because an F in an Am chord would be a #5, making is a half diminished chord, or an Aø*. Thinking of the F as a b6 would also create a pretty ugly and tonally useless chord with the E and Fnatural beating against each other.
> 
> *Maybe it would be easier to understand if you thought of putting the b6 in a Cm chord: C Eb G Ab . . . . That serves no traditional harmonic use. Weird, huh? *
> 
> It's just an accepted usage - Am6 is A C E F#, Cm6 is C Eb G A.


No, it would be a 6th, obviously, and it is definitely not a half diminished chord. It's a M7 chord in first inversion.

No, once again it's just a M7 chord in first inversion, in this case VI6/5 in C minor or I6/5 in A-flat. Both are perfectly traditional.


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## bagpipers

EdwardBast said:


> This is incorrect. Where did Mozart write parallel fifths?


Don Giovanni bar 80 act II
Jupiter symphony several in 200 bar area
Sonata for two piano's late third movement

Just to name a few

Beethoven also because of the constant use German VI chords which have a perfect 5th inside them.


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## ohdearme

Me again, the one who asked the question. The subject matter seems to have changed, so may I please bring it back to an A minor 13th question.?
Nate, I noticed you put a D# into the chord. Surely (Correct me if I'm wrong) but isn't that an A minor Augmented 11th. Or in full, A minor 13th, Augmented 11th?
Alan


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## bagpipers

ohdearme said:


> Me again, the one who asked the question. The subject matter seems to have changed, so may I please bring it back to an A minor 13th question.?
> Nate, I noticed you put a D# into the chord. Surely (Correct me if I'm wrong) but isn't that an A minor Augmented 11th. Or in full, A minor 13th, Augmented 11th?
> Alan


You answered the right the second time.With the tri-tone in there pragmatically I'd call it Dim.7th basically


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## EdwardBast

bagpipers said:


> Don Giovanni bar 80 act II
> Jupiter symphony several in 200 bar area
> Sonata for two piano's late third movement
> 
> Just to name a few


Here are mm. 80 to 81 of Don Giovanni act II: As you can see, there are no parallel 5ths: Do the others you mention actually exist? I'm not going to check each one, especially since you haven't given bar numbers. Care to quote an actual example?


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## bagpipers

EdwardBast said:


> Here are mm. 80 to 81 of Don Giovanni act II: As you can see, there are no parallel 5ths: Do the others you mention actually exist? I'm not going to check each one, especially since you haven't given bar numbers. Care to quote an actual example?
> 
> View attachment 169104


I don't know how to screen shot but is does not look like that it's in E flat and 3/4 not C and 4/4 and it's not two bass clef's either so we are not refferencing the same thing.Don't know what to tell you other than read Brahms "Essay of octaves and fifths".

Jupiter symphony was the "Finale" sorry did not mention that 200-220 about


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## EdwardBast

I can count measures. There were no parallel 5ths where you stated. Nor are there any parallel 5ths in mm. 200-220 in the finale of the Jupiter. So until you demonstrate otherwise, I'll assume that you haven't actually found any.


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## bagpipers

EdwardBast said:


> I can count measures. There were no parallel 5ths where you stated. Nor are there any parallel 5ths in mm. 200-220 in the finale of the Jupiter. So until you demonstrate otherwise, I'll assume that you haven't actually found any.


If I had time and likely money to download these original versions of Mozart scores and check I would or if my town had a better music store maybe too ,have better things to do.I have gone by the Brahms Essay's so far.

You know as well as I it was common practice to resolve a German VI chord to a triad and you know that.


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## Bwv 1080

This is a good site, noting the odd occurrence parallel 5ths in Brahms, Mozart, Bach etc








parallel fifths: good composers misbehaving


Parallel fifths in the works of common practice composers. Pictures of cats chilling out on scores.




illicitfifths.tumblr.com


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## bagpipers

Bwv 1080 said:


> This is a good site, noting the odd occurrence parallel 5ths in Brahms, Mozart, Bach etc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> parallel fifths: good composers misbehaving
> 
> 
> Parallel fifths in the works of common practice composers. Pictures of cats chilling out on scores.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> illicitfifths.tumblr.com


Thank you,someone more computer savy than I to back me up.You know if they don't break the rules once in a while there music is likely boring.


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## bagpipers

Parallel fifths aren't bad ,there just empty and hollow,most notably on piano or strings or instrument combinations with otherwise similar timbre.With less usual instrument combo's parallel fifths sound less hollow or an instrument like guitar with an already off tuning.


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## Bwv 1080

Obvious parallel 5th are bad if one wants to write in a style of music where they generally don’t occur. The examples of parallel 5ths by Bach, Brahms etc on the blog I posted above are subtle and would be very hard to hear. Most rule of the octave keyboard realizations have parallel 5th in the inner voices going from 6 to 7, which was OK for keyboard playing, but not for vocal music



Nicolas, Example 3


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## EdwardBast

bagpipers said:


> If I had time and likely money to download these original versions of Mozart scores and check I would or if my town had a better music store maybe too ,have better things to do.I have gone by the Brahms Essay's so far.
> 
> You know as well as I it was common practice to resolve a German VI chord to a triad and you know that.


Good news. One can access these scores for free and with very little trouble at the site below. I've bypassed the home page so you don't have to deal with the dunning and begging. I happen to own scores of the Mozart but this and most everything public domain can be found here:






Category:Composers - IMSLP: Free Sheet Music PDF Download







imslp.org





My point was to counter your casual advice to just ignore theory and break "the rules" the way all the major composers did because, first of all, they didn't. More important, they aren't rules, they're just consequences of applying a principle favoring independence of voice-leading. In any case, the normal treatment of the German +6 chord argues against the point you were making and the advice you were giving because of the great care taken to either avoid the 5ths by using a suspension or to avoid its audibility by making sure it doesn't occur between bass and soprano.


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## bagpipers

EdwardBast said:


> Good news. One can access these scores for free and with very little trouble at the site below. I've bypassed the home page so you don't have to deal with the dunning and begging. I happen to own scores of the Mozart but this and most everything public domain can be found here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Category:Composers - IMSLP: Free Sheet Music PDF Download
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> imslp.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My point was to counter your casual advice to just ignore theory and break "the rules" the way all the major composers did because, first of all, they didn't. More important, they aren't rules, they're just consequences of applying a principle favoring independence of voice-leading. In any case, the normal treatment of the German +6 chord argues against the point you were making and the advice you were giving because of the great care taken to either avoid the 5ths by using a suspension or to avoid its audibility by making sure it doesn't occur between bass and soprano.


I absolutely didn't say ignore theory,I'm very pro theory,have fun with theory from time to time.The rules are to be broken but broken only if one understands them properly.


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## Nate Miller

ohdearme said:


> Me again, the one who asked the question. The subject matter seems to have changed, so may I please bring it back to an A minor 13th question.?
> Nate, I noticed you put a D# into the chord. Surely (Correct me if I'm wrong) but isn't that an A minor Augmented 11th. Or in full, A minor 13th, Augmented 11th?
> Alan


yes, it is an augmented 11th, but when you say 13th, you also imply the 9th and the 11th. The 11th is usually altered or its written as a "sus" or suspended chord

I play jazz and I majored in theory and performance when I was a kid. I'm talking more about common practice writing and interpreting chord symbols. 

on a guitar, you can't play a 7 note chord on 6 strings, so in practice you wouldn't ever have all the extensions in your guitar voicing, but they are all fair game. If you have natural 13ths, its natural 9ths-- altered 13ths altered 9ths, and its always a #11 unless specifically stated otherwise.

I'm being very simplistic, but this is how to think about theory when you actually need to use it to play. I'm talking like this is all absolute, but I know that it isn't. Its more like "musicians shorthand" for what is actually a pretty rich and elaborate subject


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## Bwv 1080

All these extensions are just color tones, you don’t have to be too pedantic with terminology - the only goal is communication. Min 9ths generally are avoided in Jazz outside of dominant chords so should be skeptical if you read an extension that would imply one, like a b6 in minor or a natural 11 on a major or dominant chord. 


The natural 6th has always been part of minor in both classical and jazz. Theory 101 makes too much of distinction between natural, harmonic and melodic - there is just one minor that includes all those notes and some conventions around their use


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## Luchesi

EdwardBast said:


> Good news. One can access these scores for free and with very little trouble at the site below. I've bypassed the home page so you don't have to deal with the dunning and begging. I happen to own scores of the Mozart but this and most everything public domain can be found here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Category:Composers - IMSLP: Free Sheet Music PDF Download
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> imslp.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My point was to counter your casual advice to just ignore theory and break "the rules" the way all the major composers did because, first of all, they didn't. More important, they aren't rules, they're just consequences of applying a principle favoring independence of voice-leading. In any case, the normal treatment of the German +6 chord argues against the point you were making and the advice you were giving because of the great care taken to either avoid the 5ths by using a suspension or to avoid its audibility by making sure it doesn't occur between bass and soprano.


The link won't work for me. Probably because you have to go through the front webpage. 






IMSLP: Free Sheet Music PDF Download







imslp.org


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## ohdearme

Thanks Nate, also everyone who replied and helped with my original question ie nothing to do with paralell fiths.

Kepp well everyone.
Alan


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## Richannes Wrahms

I think I get where the confusion is. Minor 13th chords are what you get from the supertonic of a major scale or the subdominant of a minor scale. So the chord of A minor 13th comes from G major or E minor, not the key of A minor!


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## mikeh375

^^^ @Richannes Wrahms I'm sure you'll know that the concept of a minor/major 13th chord can be mapped to any step of any scale technically speaking because it is simply a vertical arrangement based on the idea of stacking 3rds. Obviously components of a stacked 3rds chord can also be chromatically altered (raised or flattened), for further resources.

Stacked 3rds chords or tertian harmony, that contain all or many of the available notes can also be analysed in different ways such as poly-triadic in diatonic situations and even bitonally if chromatic alteration is in operation. Thank goodness because the theory threads would be really boring otherwise.


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