# Polyrhytms



## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

I like polytonality, but polyrhythms seem to be a big no-no for me. I am yet to find an example that would sound good. Maybe you have some succesful examples to share?


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

You dont like Latin percussion?

What a about 7 against 4 in the Schumann piece below?


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)




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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Fabulin said:


> I like polytonality, but polyrhythms seem to be a big no-no for me. I am yet to find an example that would sound good. Maybe you have some succesful examples to share?


Tippet's always a good bet for polyrhythm and cross-rhythm. This is a particularly beautiful if at times complex example.






And this of course...






Oh yeah, this too from 13'40''


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## SuperTonic (Jun 3, 2010)

This is one of my favorite examples of polyrhythm: Allegretto from Barber's Excursions, op. 20


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Interesting examples, thank you.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Phil loves classical said:


>


I'm not sure if that's a good example of what the OP is talking about, since everything pretty much falls under the multiples of 'triplets of ( 16 x 3/2 )th notes' . 
I'm pretty sure the OP is talking about stuff like:


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Here's what I consider a good example of "3 against 2"s in Debussy:


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

"9 against 5"s (eventually turning into "9 against 6"s) in Op.42 No. 1 in D flat major - It's baffling to me how people manage "9 against 5"s. The hardest I have done are "6 against 5"s and "5 against 3 or 4"s. 
I think Op.42 No. 7 in F minor is more manageable (since it consists of "4 against 3"s), but Op.42 No. 8 in E flat major seems more complex.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

"7 against 3"s @1:47


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

I'm not sure if this applies across all versions, but the Adagio of Bruckner 6 has a restatement of the oboe lament theme superimposed across polyrythmic triplets for a cool effect


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

hammeredklavier said:


> I'm not sure if that's a good example of what the OP is talking about, since everything pretty much falls under the multiples of 'triplets of ( 16 x 3/2 )th notes' .
> I'm pretty sure the OP is talking about stuff like:


I think it's a bit subtler in the Debussy. From 1:35 to 1:45 there are some obvious 3's against 2's, but where the accents are and rhythms, I feel they are also implied in some other passages until that particular passage doesn't sound like a surprise.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

There is a recent thread on the music of French composer Darius Milhaud that provokes my thought here.

From: https://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/mp/9460447.0008.204?view=text;rgn=main

Darius Milhaud's song cycle Machines agricoles (1919) has long been considered a joke among critics and scholars. In the piece, Milhaud sets mundane, unpoetic excerpts from farm machine catalogues with his characteristic polytonal, polyrhythmic musical language.

An example: Milhaud's Machines agricoles, beginning of first movement, "La Moissonneuse Espigadora."


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## calvinpv (Apr 20, 2015)

Lots of spicy rhythms throughout Rihm's Jagden und Formen, but this section below is especially interesting. You got a lot of 3 vs 2 action between the two rhythmic voices (and the voices will often alternate back-and-forth in those subdivisions). But on top of that, there are many moments (each lasting about a beat or less, irregularly dispersed) where one rhythm plays while the other is silent, adding a second layer of accents. And then finally, the two rhythmic voices (2 flutes and 2 clarinets in rhythmic unison on the one hand; English horn, guitar, harp and 2 marimbas in complete unison on the other hand) are so timbrally different -- with undoubtedly their own rates of attack, sustain and decay -- that you get some really small micro-rhythms in between individual notes.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Phil loves classical said:


> I think it's a bit subtler in the Debussy. From 1:35 to 1:45 there are some obvious 3's against 2's, but where the accents are and rhythms, I feel they are also implied in some other passages until that particular passage doesn't sound like a surprise.


I see what you're saying, but the sort of "implied polyrhythms" like that Debussy example is more abundant and commonplace in general classical music (also in older common practice music as well). The Chopin ballade example David Bruce discusses in his video 



 - it is a "9 against 8", but there are smaller "3 against 2"s within it. To me, they somewhat "simplify" the difficulty of playing an actual "9 against 8" (by "broadening" and "segmenting"). Similarly, "there can be complex rhythmic patterns working within simpler rhythmic patterns."-I guess this idea is sort of like what you're saying.


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## level82rat (Jun 20, 2019)

For performers out there, how much did you struggle to learn playing polyrhythms? Did it ever become second nature?


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

level82rat said:


> For performers out there, how much did you struggle to learn playing polyrhythms? Did it ever become second nature?


I'm pretty sucky at piano, but even I can play 3 against 2, and 5 against 2. It gets programmed into muscle memory with enough practice.

Here is one I've been playing/learning from time to time with those polyrhythms.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

The basic ones (3-2, 4-3) are pretty much second nature. So are 5-2 and 5-4. Besides that, anything against 2 I can intuit with reasonable ease. If it's something more complicated, I often just "brute force" it: take the LCMth note as the pulse (if each rhythm is the division of 1 whole note) and tap out where each voice enters until I get a sense of it.

5 against 3 is the other one I know on a fairly intuitive level, from playing Scriabin's prelude Op. 11 no. 1.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

hammeredklavier said:


>


I'm glad he mentions prolation canons! Those are really incredible examples of early polyrhythms.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

I remember reading somewhere - maybe in Swafford's biography - that Brahms's affinity for 3 against 2 polyrhythms may have come from his mother's having a limp. Not sure what to make of that, but... interesting theory.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

level82rat said:


> For performers out there, how much did you struggle to learn playing polyrhythms? Did it ever become second nature?


I don't think I can manage evenly anything with a common multiple greater than 30.
"8 against 7"s @9:16


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

The slow movement of Bruckner's fifth symphony contains an interesting poly rhythm : it begins with pizzicato strings in a pattern of two triplets per measure which sound like triple meter even though the time signature is duple meter . 
The solo oboe plays a simple theme which would sound rather square by itself . But it sounds syncopated with the pizzicato triplets .


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