# You guys are mean



## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Why, oh why, would you point out Mozart's constant abuse of the appoggiatura? I can't stop hearing it now! My listening pleasure has been permanently marred :scold:

I'm kidding. Mostly. But seriously, you guys are great.


----------



## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

ahammel said:


> Why, oh why, would you point out Mozart's constant abuse of the appoggiatura? I can't stop hearing it now! My listening pleasure has been permanently marred :scold:
> 
> I'm kidding. Mostly. But seriously, you guys are great.


It probably shows up in every 'sad song' professionally composed; can't blame Mozart.


----------



## Guest (Dec 2, 2013)

The people with more mature/intelligent/etc tastes than me are mean


----------



## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

There seems to be more than one meaning for the word "appoggiatura", this is not the first time I've run across people claiming Mozart uses these a lot. Can anyone give me an example of a Mozart piece where these are used frequently and point out specifically where it is used?


----------



## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Pssst! (whispering) They don't really know what appoggiatura means. They're just repeating something they heard someone else say!


----------



## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

Someone who posts here frequently complained about Mozart's use of them, but 'appoggiatura' probably wasn't what they meant. Usually when they say this, they're referring to that chromatic half-step from a dissonant to consonant note Mozart sometimes would use at the end of a phrase for a nudging/teasing effect. At least, that's the impression I got.


----------



## david johnson (Jun 25, 2007)

no appoggiatura bigotry will be allowed!!


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

david johnson said:


> no appoggiatura bigotry will be allowed!!


There was a movement to outlaw the appoggiatura in early 19th-century Vienna, especially the "appoggiatura of passion," as it was felt to excite the libido to an undesirable degree. Beethoven and Rossini, in an unusual show of cooperation, defeated this initiative.

(Note: Just kidding...)


----------



## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

I dunno what apoggiato is so it doesn't bother me!  Proof that sometimes ignorance _is_ bliss...


----------



## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

I've got a feeling that they're not written in the scores very often. They often were in opera but keep in mind that his principals were as young as 15. 
The first Pamina in the Magic Flute was 17. A big role for someone so inexperienced...so Mozart marked out a musical road map for her. Pamina is loaded with scored appogiaturas to make sure she used them in the right places. 
I'm fairly certain that's not the case with the rest of the cast who were older.

I'm sure there's someone here who is more knowledgeable than me on the matter and can set the record straight.


----------



## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

ahammel said:


> Why, oh why, would you point out Mozart's constant abuse of the appoggiatura? I can't stop hearing it now! My listening pleasure has been permanently marred :scold:


Not always Wolfgang. As somebody pointed out in relation to his recitatives:



> Most of the time, we are dealing with the ends of poetic lines as set by Mozart in his recitatives - what are sometimes called "prosodic" appoggiaturas. Usually, when there is a "feminine" ending to the line (an accented syllable followed by an unaccented one, as in the word "a-MOR-e" in Italian), Mozart sets both syllables to a single repeated note, with the expectation that, at least sometimes, an appoggiatura will be added to the first of the two notes.


For those confused with their acciaccaturas and appoggiaturas remember: the ap_poggi_atura is longer than the acciaccatura because it is _podgy_.


----------



## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

tdc said:


> Can anyone give me an example of a Mozart piece where these are used frequently and point out specifically where it is used?


My favorite instances of gratuitous Mozart appogiaturas occur in the first movement of his Piano Concerto No. 18, where at one point we get three in a row: first at 5:42, then again at 5:50, and then for good measure another at 5:52.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

They were always present, their number unchanged, but...

Buy a red car... notice all other red cars.

MORAL: Do not buy a red car, or if you do, do not obsess over owning a red car


----------



## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

Kieran said:


> I dunno what apoggiato is so it doesn't bother me!  Proof that sometimes ignorance _is_ bliss...


I do but I'm with you! Listening to each measure and dissecting it and counting how many times this or that is being done is no way to 'enjoy' music.


----------



## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

Eschbeg said:


> My favorite instances of gratuitous Mozart appogiaturas occur in the first movement of his Piano Concerto No. 18, where at one point we get three in a row: first at 5:42, then again at 5:50, and then for good measure another at 5:52.


I actually found those moments in the concerto to be very pretty. Shows what I know...


----------



## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

Eschbeg said:


> My favorite instances of gratuitous Mozart appogiaturas occur in the first movement of his Piano Concerto No. 18, where at one point we get three in a row: first at 5:42, then again at 5:50, and then for good measure another at 5:52.


Is there an alternative definition of appoggiatura people are using here? I just looked at the score for those exact moments you describe and the first time it's a quarter note as part of the melodic line, and the next two occasions they're just dotted eighth notes.


----------



## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

^ I'm also still a little confused by those examples, but I guess they could fit the definition of non-chord tones acting as unprepared suspensions, in which case they would not necessarily need to be marked as such in the score, but the duration each note is held seems longer than what I was expecting, and I wonder if many people here are using the term appogiatura for other types of delayed resolutions.


----------



## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

tdc said:


> ^ I'm also still a little confused by those examples, but I guess they could fit the definition of non-chord tones acting as unprepared suspensions, in which case they would not necessarily need to be marked as such in the score, but the duration each note is held seems longer than what I was expecting, and I wonder if many people here are using the term appogiatura for other types of delayed resolutions.


I thought an appoggiatura was simply a dissonant note approached by leap and left by step, usually downwards.


----------



## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

1000 words >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


----------



## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> I thought an appoggiatura was simply a dissonant note approached by leap and left by step, usually downwards.


That's usually how it's understood. I've also seen it defined as simply any unprepared dissonance, or any dissonance not prepared by the other usual means (passing tones, neighbor tones, suspensions, anticipations, etc.).

The example I posted above accords with both definitions: in the first two instances, the harmony is D minor moving to C major, and the melody moves from F to A to G, with A being the dissonance (against the C major chord in the left hand); in the third instance the harmony is C major moving to F major, and the melody moves from C to G to F, with G being the dissonance (against the F major chord in the left hand).


----------



## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Some great information here, but with these very broad definitions being used of appoggiaturas I wonder why Mozart's music in particular gets singled out? Surely since Mozart's time the majority of composers must use this technique. I also find it interesting that so far only one poster here has been able to actually give an example of appoggiaturas being used in Mozart's music. For all the other members who claim to know what they are and that they always hear them in Mozart's music, why not give some more examples?


----------



## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

trazom said:


> Is there an alternative definition of appoggiatura people are using here? I just looked at the score for those exact moments you describe and the first time it's a quarter note as part of the melodic line, and the next two occasions they're just dotted eighth notes.


There is no definition of appoggiatura I'm aware of that relies on rhythmic value. Appoggiaturas are a class of dissonance (or, more accurately, dissonance treatment) and/or ornamentation, so rhythmic values are more or less irrelevant. At most, metrical placement of a note in relation to other notes is a factor, but that can happen with any rhythmic values--whole notes, quarters, eighths, etc.


----------



## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Eschbeg said:


> There is no definition of appoggiatura I'm aware of that relies on rhythmic value. Appoggiaturas are a class of dissonance (or, more accurately, dissonance treatment) and/or ornamentation, so rhythmic values are more or less irrelevant. At most, metrical placement of a note in relation to other notes is a factor, but that can happen with any rhythmic values--whole notes, quarters, eighths, etc.


If one types appoggiatura into a search engine there are many different definitions that come up, a lot of which do seem to place emphasis on the rhythmic value, for example: http://www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/texta/Appoggiatura.html


----------



## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

True, but in those definitions, such as in the page you cited, the rhythmic value of the appoggiatura is pertinent only because of its relationship to the rhythmic value of the note that follows. (That's sort of what I was trying to suggest, clumsily, when I wrote "in relation to other notes.") That's different from the what I gathered of *trazom*'s comment ("it's a quarter note as part of the melodic line, and the next two occasions they're just dotted eighth notes"), which suggests that the rhythmic value of the appoggiatura itself can call its status as an appoggiatura into question.

In modern parlance, there are two general ways of understanding appoggiaturas: as types of ornaments or as types of dissonances. The ornament perspective revolves around melodic function and therefore often involves guidelines about how an appoggiatura should relate to other notes of the melody (including, as you noted, rhythmically). In this sense, appoggiaturas (like other non-chord tones) are kind of like tools in a musician's toolbox: they are important because they provide the composer or the performer with ways of constructing good melodies. The URL you cited is an example of the ornamental interpretation of appoggiaturas.

The dissonance perspective revolves around harmonic function and therefore stresses a note's relationship to the chord underneath it. In this sense, appoggiaturas are mostly analytical tools that provide ways of accounting for notes that are not part of the local harmony of a particular passage. The chart *Taggart* pasted is an example of the dissonance interpretation of appoggiaturas.

Naturally, there is quite a lot of overlap between these two interpretations. Most appogiaturas can be viewed both ways. In the Mozart example I cited, the notes I singled out are ornaments to the melody, and they are also non-chord tones in relation to the harmony underneath.


----------



## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

Tristan said:


> I actually found those moments in the concerto to be very pretty. Shows what I know...


Pretty? They're downright gorgeous.


----------



## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

_The Magic Flute. Pamina's aria: Ach, ich fühl's...
_
Ach, ich *fühl's*, es ist verschwunden,	
Ewig *hin* mein ganzes Glück
Ewig hin der Liebe Glück!

You can see the grace notes in the score


----------

