# Masters of the Adagio: Bruckner's 9th vs. Mahler's 10th



## Richannes Wrahms

Both from unfinished Symphonies, including fragmentary themes, motifs, wonderful counterpoint and majestic tutti sections. Sooner or later comparisons had to be made between the very last finished compositions of these great masters at the height of their powers and their finest chromatism. Vote for your favourite and leave a comment if you dare. :tiphat:


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## Chronochromie

Haven't heard either yet.


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## Manxfeeder

Bruckner. But I tend to have a bias in that direction, so I can't really be trusted.


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## CyrilWashbrook

Have only listened to the Mahler 10 once and I can't remember it. I will say, however, that the third movement of the Bruckner 9 is one of my favourite movements from any work (and the Bruckner 9 as a whole is one of my favourite works). It would take a lot to better it.


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## joen_cph

Very, very tough/impossible. But am perhaps slightly inclined to Mahler´s 10th, liking Bruckner´s 8th even more than his 9th.


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## Mahlerian

I consider Mahler's 10th a complete work, or at least more so than Bruckner's 9th (because Mahler doesn't require anyone to compose anything to "complete the structure"). Anyway, it gets my vote.


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## Chronochromie

Mahlerian said:


> I consider Mahler's 10th a complete work, or at least more so than Bruckner's 9th (because Mahler doesn't require anyone to compose anything to "complete the structure"). Anyway, it gets my vote.


Who would have guessed? :lol:


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## Guest

Abstention! [I'll take both - I don't want to make a "Sophie's choice"]


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## Richannes Wrahms

Mahlerian said:


> I consider Mahler's 10th a complete work, or at least more so than Bruckner's 9th (because Mahler doesn't require anyone to compose anything to "complete the structure"). Anyway, it gets my vote.


Cerha is still alive, perhaps we should poke him until he 'decides' to orchestrate the thing.


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## Dan Hornby

Mahlerian said:


> I consider Mahler's 10th a complete work, or at least more so than Bruckner's 9th (because Mahler doesn't require anyone to compose anything to "complete the structure"). Anyway, it gets my vote.


It didn't stop Mahler trying to "improve" Schumann's symphonies.


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## Aramis

Dan Hornby said:


> It didn't stop Mahler trying to "improve" Schumann's 4th symphony.


Not only the 4th. His versions of Schumann symphonies have been recorded and after hearing them, I must say he did pointless job there and the recording is not much more than curiosity for Mahler geeks (no reason to listen for the sake of Schumann's music which is only spoiled).


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## Dan Hornby

Aramis said:


> Not only the 4th. His versions of Schumann symphonies have been recorded and after hearing them, I must say he did pointless job there and the recording is not much more than curiosity for Mahler geeks (no reason to listen for the sake of Schumann's music which is only spoiled).


I did correct myself obviously sometime during your writing of the post, although the 4th was supposed to be a specific reference to the criticism of the 1851 version. I would agree with the sentiment that it was pretty pointless, merely a curiosity in my book, and I won't waste my time listening to them. Schumann is Schumann not Mahler.

The same applies to other re-orchestrations by Mahler, including Beethoven(!) and the Mozart re-orchestration of _Messiah_.


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## Mahlerian

Dan Hornby said:


> It didn't stop Mahler trying to "improve" Schumann's symphonies.


He didn't compose anything for them, so I don't understand the point of this jab.

Anyway, Schumann's symphonies _do_ have problems of orchestral texture when played on modern orchestras. Mahler didn't ever make other composers sound like his own music. He only ever wanted to bring out what they had written more clearly (and a number of conductors have done the same thing over the years).


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## Aramis

Mahlerian said:


> He only ever wanted to bring out what they had written more clearly


By cutting out half of the work, in case of Schumann?


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## Mahlerian

Aramis said:


> By cutting out half of the work, in case of Schumann?


Where did he do this? I know he made cuts to Bruckner, but I wasn't aware of any in his versions of Schumann's symphonies.


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## Oliver

I do love the adagio from Bruckner's 9th, and I heard it long before Mahler's 10th, but Mahler gets my vote, it's so much more beautiful.


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## Aramis

Mahlerian said:


> Where did he do this? I know he made cuts to Bruckner, but I wasn't aware of any in his versions of Schumann's symphonies.


There are cuts, though I can't name exact bars for you. Maybe look into booklet of recording you have, shouldn't it be there? If not, I'm sure you can notice them by listening comparison between Mahler version and Schumann original.


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## DeepR

I'm very curious so I will listen to both of these movements soon and let you know my first impressions.
If I can be excused for not listening to the entire symphonies for now, that will take some more time..


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## Mahlerian

Aramis said:


> There are cuts, though I can't name exact bars for you. Maybe look into booklet of recording you have, shouldn't it be there? If not, I'm sure you can notice them by listening comparison between Mahler version and Schumann original.


I don't remember there being any cuts. At any rate, I'm not that much of a fan of Chailly, and his recordings of Schumann/Mahler are on the faster side compared to what I'm used to.

Why are we complaining about Mahler's orchestrations? He never did anything close to this level of absurdity:


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## hpowders

The adagio from Mahler's 10th occupies a special place for me. There is no greater slow movement, in my opinion.
I absolutely adore this music.


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## Guest

hpowders said:


> The adagio from Mahler's 10th occupies a special place for me. There is no greater slow movement, in my opinion [...]


Perhaps. I'm not knocking your choice, HP, but maybe try these "slow movements" for a different take on "masters of the adagio" :
a) 



b)


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## Haydn man

I do not know these works so will go and rectify this in the coming days
Interestingly I had decided to make June a month of listening to all the Mahler symphonies so throwing in a little Bruckner shouldn't go amiss


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## AClockworkOrange

I have voted for the Adagio from Mahler's 10th.

Both are phenomenally beautiful pieces, but it comes down to personal taste and Mahler comes out ahead.


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## Überstürzter Neumann

Bruckner. His symphonies are especially dear to me, and this adagio is only beaten slightly by the one of his 8th when it comes to the absolute favourite slow movement. Mahler on the other hand, and with no intention of disrespect, does not interest me much.


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## hpowders

The Mahler 10th adagio is my favorite adagio for all time.


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## Whistler Fred

I'm inclined to say that it depends on which one I listened to recently. But I'll cast my vote for Mahler's 10th, if for no other reason than that astounding climactic moment (with that massive cluster chord) gets to me every time I hear it.


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## SiegendesLicht

I love both, but prefer Bruckner. Mahler's adagio is somewhat too neurotic.


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## hpowders

AClockworkOrange said:


> I have voted for the Adagio from Mahler's 10th.
> 
> Both are phenomenally beautiful pieces, but it comes down to personal taste and Mahler comes out ahead.


Deleted post.


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## amfortas

SiegendesLicht said:


> I love both, but prefer Bruckner. Mahler's adagio is somewhat too neurotic.


Well then dammit, man, you may as well just prefer Bruckner over Mahler period!


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## SiegendesLicht

amfortas said:


> Well then dammit, man, you may as well just prefer Bruckner over Mahler period!


Well, I do.......


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## adrem

Bruckner. He so special for me and adagio from the 9th is such heavenly beautiful masterpiece.


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## Sepphy

The two terms of comparison are so good that they almost undermine its possibility of being made. lol


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## BenG

Bruckner. The climax just before the coda is the most shattering music ever made.


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## Merl

I'll go very marginally with Bruckner but it's a very marginal decision that will probably change next week.


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## DavidA

I can't understand how we can compare two very different pieces of music


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## starthrower

Haven't listened to the Bruckner in a long time, but I've got a new set by Skrowaczewski, so I'll be getting to it. The Mahler is one of my favorite movements from any symphony.


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## tdc

Back when this poll was taken I voted for Mahler, now I would change my vote to Bruckner, although I also very much like the adagio from Mahler's 10th.


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