# Question about Beethoven's 7th (Gardiner)



## vincentfernandes (Jan 8, 2013)

Hi everyone, I am in need of your sound advice.

I would like to buy Beethoven’s 7th symphony conducted by Gardiner on CD. Note that I am referring to the studio recording from 1994, not the more recent live one, which I think doesn’t sound as vibrant. The problem is that I can only find this one paired with the 8th symphony, which I will never play again since I think it’s an incredibly boring piece of music, especially after the 7th masterpiece. I got into Marie Kondo during lockdown, so am not ever buying any album anymore if half of its contents don’t appeal to me. 

So my question is, has there ever been a release of that 1994 studio recording coupled with something else, something better? I wouldn’t mind having symphony 5 or 6 either, but not 8.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Reconsider #8 which is an incredibly entertaining piece of music or even one of the dirt cheap Gardiner boxes (either all symphonies or even all DG Archiv Beethoven), but there was in fact a single disc with (the older) #5 and #7:

ASIN ‏: ‎ B0000246QD


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## Josquin13 (Nov 7, 2017)

I wouldn't write off the 8th Symphony just yet, since Beethoven considered the 8th to be superior to his 7th! It may be the performance you heard, or sometimes these things can take several listens before the music finally clicks.

The 8th was composed in answer to those annoying critics that claimed Beethoven couldn't compose a "classical" symphony. But he could, and proved it with his 8th. However, it's not an easy symphony to do well, and a lot of conductors misunderstand it, IMO, by performing it as if it's recycled or uninspired Haydn, which it definitely isn't.

One conductor that understands the sheer dynamism of this symphony particularly well is John Nelson, & his 8th is, IMO, the standout performance of his HIP Beethoven cycle played on modern instruments by Ensemble Orchestral de Paris:


















Pablo Casals likewise understands the 8th too, IMO:


















But I wouldn't overly recommend Gardiner in this symphony.

Gardiner's 7th, on the other hand, is excellent, & the only symphony that I'd strongly recommend from his Archiv cycle other than his 9th, and possibly 2nd. However, in the rest of the symphonies, Gardiner misses a lot, in my view. & especially in the 5th, were he rushes so quickly through the passage that contains the so-called 'death note'--where the music flatlines towards the end of the 3rd movement--that you barely even notice it's there!; which, in effect, is to misunderstand the whole point of the symphony, in my view.

But then most of the period conductors misunderstand the "death note" by not holding onto it longer, and that the music must then build gradually from there--picking up momentum towards the sense of triumph & victory at the beginning of the 4th movement. To put it into an analogy, it's like a boxer who gets knocked out, but then by the sheer strength of their will, manages to get back up to win the fight in a blaze of glory--i.e. the beginning of the 4th movement. Another example of a period conductor that comes up short here is Sir Roger Norrington, who, unwisely, almost completely drowns out the "death note" with his timpani.

On the other hand, the one period conductor that I've heard who, IMO, understands the importance of the "death note" is Nikolaus Harnoncourt. But he only gets it on his second attempt at the 5th with Concentus Musicus Wien. While on his earlier recording, the 5th was one of the weak spots of his otherwise excellent COE cycle, & apparently he thought so too, since he wanted to have another go at the 5th towards the end of his life (along with the 4th), in order to get it right. & he succeeded, IMO, where all the other period conductors fall short; though granted, the performance isn't without some of the usual Harnoncourt eccentricities, but they are relatively minor here: 



.

Fortunately, most of the period conductors achieve better results in the 7th. It is, after all, Beethoven's most Handel influenced & inspired symphony, and the world of Handel's music is something that the period conductors know & understand very well. So, they tend to excel at this symphony.

Along with Gardiner, the other period conductor that is exceptional in the 7th, & my own top choice in this symphony, is Jos van Immerseel, with Anima Eterna. Unlike Gardiner, Immerseel astutely couples his performance of the 7th with Beethoven's even more blatantly Handel influenced Overture, "Die Weihe des Hauses" or "Consecration of the House":






(By the way, in case you didn't know it, Handel was one of Beethoven's favorite composers.) In addition, Immerseel took the pains to track down authentic Viennese period horns, as well, which makes a world of difference in the interplay between the brass & the woodwind sections, which are so prominently on display in the 7th:






Unfortunately, the one negative here is that you have to buy Immerseel's 1-9 cycle in order to get the disc that has the 7th & "Consecration of the House" Overture on it. And, apart from a very good 8th, it's not a cycle that I'd go out of my way to recommend; especially considering that Immerseel's 9th isn't nearly as good as Gardiner's, in my view.

But yes, Kreisler jr. is right, Gardiner's studio 7th did once come coupled with his 5th, back in the 1990s. I don't know if the CD is difficult to find now or not, but the Discography website currently lists only one CD for sale (at $8.91), which probably means it's on the scarce side. Here's a link: https://www.discogs.com/release/913...antique-John-Eliot-Gardiner-Symphonien-Nr-5-7.


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## vincentfernandes (Jan 8, 2013)

Thanks, but I have listened to the 8th a number of times (Gardiner, Rattle, Karajan) and it just does not work for me. I know Beethoven liked it better himself, but especially the ending drives me crazy. It feels very uninspired and has 'listen to this long ending!' written all over it for me. The ending of the 7th, however, makes me want to jump up and down and clap every time, as does everything in that symphony, really. Will check out Immerseel again too.

Oh, I wanted to buy this one:
https://www.discogs.com/sell/item/1695598000
Is it not he same?


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Is FLAC acceptable? Presto has the 7th as a download for $10.75.

https://www.prestomusic.com/classic...r beethoven&size=10&view=large&sort=relevance


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

vincentfernandes said:


> Thanks, but I have listened to the 8th a number of times (Gardiner, Rattle, Karajan) and it just does not work for me.


Before you give up on the 8th, try to hear Scherchen and Casals.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

vincentfernandes said:


> Oh, I wanted to buy this one:
> https://www.discogs.com/sell/item/1695598000
> Is it not he same?


Yes, that's the one I gave the Amazon ASIN for above; it's from the 1994 Archiv studio cycle.


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## Josquin13 (Nov 7, 2017)

Vincentfernndes writes, "Thanks, but I have listened to the 8th a number of times (Gardiner, Rattle, Karajan) and it just does not work for me."

Rattle & Karajan 1963 are relatively dull in this symphony ... like I wrote above, maybe you've listened to recordings of the 8th that treat it as if it were uninspired Haydn... if I had listened to Rattle & Karajan '63 in the 8th I wouldn't like the symphony much either. Sir Simon (with the Vienna Philharmonic) thinks he's being HIP, but instead he gives it the Sir Colin Davis treatment. Karajan '77 & late Karajan have more bite & energy, & are more HIP than Rattle's, which says something--& is surprising, considering that Rattle once criticized Karajan for not being at all influenced by the period revival (which is mostly true): 



.

Just compare Rattle's 1st movement to Nelson's or Casals, to hear what I'm talking about, for starters,

Rattle: 



Nelson: 




As for Gardiner, I don't think he's misconceived the symphony, but for me, his 8th isn't quite as inspired or insightful or witty as Nelson's, either, & especially in the 4th movement, where Gardiner thrashes about a lot, but, oddly, isn't particularly engaging,

To my ears, Nelson's 4th movement isn't long winded and boring; on the contrary, he actually gets that Beethoven is laughing at his critics in this movement--can you hear where the music sounds like a person laughing? It must have really pissed the deaf Beethoven off that his dumb critics wrote he couldn't write a "classical" symphony:






At some point, when you've got the time & feel curious, why don't you give Nelson's 8th a try, or Casals, or Markevitch (I've not heard Scherchen's 8th, which wkasimer recommends, but he's brilliant in the Eroica). If you still don't like it, then it's not for you.

But don't misunderstand me, I'm not claiming that it's a better symphony than the 7th. I don't think it is. Or, that the final movement of the 8th is more compelling than the final movement of the 7th. It isn't, I agree. Yet, as I see it, each & every symphony in the 'Nine' is unique & different. So, to my mind, you have to take each one for what they are--as a part of the autobiographical musical journey of his life. & here, in the 8th, Beethoven is thumbing his nose at his critics, while simultaneously being brilliant, witty, and artfully 'classical' at the same time. & it is full of humor. Granted, yes, he's bringing Haydn's symphonies to mind, in places, unquestionably so--as the quintessential 'model' of the 'classical' symphony--such as in the 2nd movement, which is very Haydnesque. But then he gives 'Papa' Haydn a bit of twist or kick in the a--ss, if I may say so--though not disrespectfully--& that is what Rattle & Davis don't understand. (Rather, Davis just gets that the symphony is a lot like Haydn, who is one of the composers that he most excelled in.) Which isn't at all what the 7th is about. So, in my view, it's unfair to even compare them.

P.S. I'm going to go out on a limb, & guess that you like Handel's music more than Haydn's?


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Szell, Toscanini and Reiner are really good with LvB Sym #8, Monteux and Solti, too...It's a funny piece!! with all sorts of [deliberately] misplaced accents, parodies, jests, etc...


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## Josquin13 (Nov 7, 2017)

"It's a funny piece!! with all sorts of [deliberately] misplaced accents, parodies, jests, etc..."

Yes! exactly. But within the parodies & jests he's also showing that he is perfectly capable of composing a quintessential 'classical' symphony. & the sounds of someone laughing that you hear in the music itself, is most likely Beethoven laughing at his critics, as if to say, so you didn't think I could write a classical symphony like Haydn? Ha! Listen to this... & he proves them wrong. Which is of course part of the joke & wit behind the symphony.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Josquin13 said:


> Beethoven's even more blatantly Handel influenced Overture, "Die Weihe des Hauses" or "Consecration of the House":


I see where you come from, but honestly I always found the "Die Weihe des Hauses" ouverture more Bach inspired than Händel inspired. This even includes the main subject of the ouverture (after the introduction), which has a striking similarity with the fugue subject of the ouverture of Bach's orchestral suite no 1, likewise in C major.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

My favorite for LvB's symphony no. 8 has always been the recording by Ferenc Fricsay conducting the Berliner Phil. from the early 1950es (DG mono). He really succeeds in capturing the Haydn like spirit particularly of the two last movements.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

I have to follow this tread, see where this ends.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Don't ignore the 8th. It's *far* from boring. Nothing to add to what Josquin and others have said but I actually find it odd that someone likes the 7th and doesn't like the 8th. How do you feel about the other Beethoven symphonies? Personally, I'd just buy the whole Gardiner cycle (it can be purchased fairly cheaply these days) or have a listen via streaming / YouTube and see who else you might like (there are some other stellar 7ths out there). Krivine and Immerseel knock out killer 7ths too that are not a million miles from Gardiner's approach.


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## vincentfernandes (Jan 8, 2013)

Off the top of my head:
1. Pretty good.
2. Slightly less, but still very enjoyable.
3. I need to be in the right mood for this, the 2nd movement grew on me but the first is still meh, somehow works better on piano for me.
4. Grew on me, especially the ending.
5. Great.
6. Very good, but I need the second movement on modern instruments.
7. Masterpiece.
8. Boring as hell, 2nd movement nice.
9. Out of this world.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

I'll just add my voice to the chorus that rejecting the Eighth is a huge mistake. 

In addition to many good recommendations listed above, I'll add Abbado/Berliner Philharmoniker, especially the live performance from Rome, which is one of my favorites. And Skrowaczewski/Saarbrücken is superb in the Eighth as well.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

vincentfernandes said:


> Off the top of my head:
> 1. Pretty good.
> 2. Slightly less, but still very enjoyable.
> 3. I need to be in the right mood for this, the 2nd movement grew on me but the first is still meh, somehow works better on piano for me.
> ...


1. Best one of the cycle
2. Not quite as great
3. Terrible first movement; too fast funeral march
4. Truly great 
5. Too thin sounding and too fast, but still fine
6. Good
7. Really good. Takes the second movement at its proper tempo.
8. Too light and fast. The Eighth needs more gravitas that larger forces can provide
9. Horrible. The instruments are struggling, each movement is too fast with the first and third being the main offenders.


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