# Scarlatti sonata instrumentation



## Garlic

I came to know Scarlatti's sonatas through piano interpretations (particularly those by Ivo Pogorelich and Alexandre Tharaud). But listening to Andreas Staier's harpsichord recordings, it just feels more... right, somehow. So I'm interested in what folks here have to say about it all. I'm also interested in people's preferred recordings for each instrument.


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## Guest

Scott Ross' harpsichord. But does my vote count if I've only listened to about 30 of them?


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## Aramis

I really likes Ivo Pogorelić CD with selection of Scarlatti sonatas on piano. I'm in the "we can't stand harpsichord no matter what it plays" camp. 

It's not one of these instruments that were replaced by DIFFRENT instruments, it's one of these that were replaced by BETTER ones. The sound of piano is simply richer and offers more possibilities of interpretation. Not even a full century after Scarlatti died, Chopin came to the afterworld and told him: "I really love you sonatas, but I play them on piano". "What's piano?" asked Scarlatti, and they descended back to mortal realm so Chopin could demonstrate on his own Pleyel. Ever since, Scarlatti lies down from time to time on his favourite cloud and wonders: "how could I write so much music for this awful instrument I despise so much?"


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## Taggart

Best on a harpsichord, but I have a sneaking regard for the Avison 12 Concerti Grossi after Scarlatti published in 1744. These include fifty movements by Scarlatti . Many of the movements, though by no means all, came from Scarlatti's "Essercizi" (binary one-movement sonatas) which had been published in London by the Irish composer Thomas Roseingrave in 1739.


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## Celloman

Wanda Landowska on the harpsichord. Listen for the anti-aircraft guns in the background.


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## joen_cph

As a minor remark, there´s also Casella´s "Scarlattiana" for piano and orchestra 



, and Shostakovich´s two transcriptions for wind orchestra op.17 




Overall I prefer the piano sound to that of the harpsichord, though I do find the harpsichord interesting in ensemble or orchestral works. For solo harpsichord music, I like a really heavy sound with a lot of bass and spaciousness, but can´t immediately mention a recording of Scarlatti like that; any suggestions would be welcome ...


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## Ukko

On piano, Horowitz for his limited selection, Tipo (for Ricordi Milan) for a more extensive set. Pogorelich and Pletnev are also interesting.

On harpsichord, Igor Kipnis. The recordings by Valenti (for Westminster) are worth checking out for the dynamics he was able to produce, though there is too much resonance to suit me. They also meet the 'spaciouness' requirement.


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## joen_cph

Ukko said:


> On piano, Horowitz for his limited selection, Tipo (for Ricordi Milan) for a more extensive set. Pogorelich and Pletnev are also interesting.
> 
> On harpsichord, Igor Kipnis. The recordings by Valenti (for Westminster) are worth checking out for the dynamics he was able to produce, though there is too much resonance to suit me. They also meet the 'spaciouness' requirement.


Thanks, I see there´s a good deal on you-t such as (..deleted..), which seems attractive. Those old LPs can be found here from time to time too.


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## joen_cph

Edit concerning the post above - I´ve searched several Valenti tracks but wrongly copied the link to the first of them, which had poor sound - it should have been this one


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## Mandryka

I think all but about 70 sonatas can be played on a single keyboard. It's often debatable which instrument Scarlatti was writing for -- organ, piano or harpsichord. There's a fantastic new CD by Enrico Baiano which explores these issues:









I must say I haven't found any really satisfying organ recordings, please suggest one if you know of one. Maybe someone could comment on this, which I find a bit intriguing because I like the way Thiery Mechler plays Art o Fugue:









I think that Scarlatti is very hard to play on a modern piano and most times pianists make the music either too smooth or too flash. Part of the problem is that traditional modern piano tuning tends to smooth out dissonances. Some of the Naxos Scarlatti series is very interesting though - Benjamin Frith especially, and Evgeny Zarafiants and Beatrice Long.


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## shangoyal

I disagree that the piano is always suitable for all kinds of music. I can say so because I like Leonhardt on the harpsichord better than Gould on the piano for the Goldberg Variations. Scarlatti, I like on harpsichord but my favourite is guitar since it brings out the Spanish flavour of the music.


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## Ukko

shangoyal said:


> I disagree that the piano is always suitable for all kinds of music. I can say so because I like Leonhardt on the harpsichord better than Gould on the piano for the Goldberg Variations. Scarlatti, I like on harpsichord but *my favourite is guitar since it brings out the Spanish flavour of the music.*




Us sophisticated types believe that the harpsichord brings out the Spanish flavor at exactly the appropriate degree. Using a guitar over-Spanish-izes the music for our tastes. I would elaborate, but my monocle keeps falling off, and I need to adjust my squint.


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## joen_cph

I found Frith in the John Field Concerti/Naxos and Zafirants in Scriabin/Naxos quite anonymous, but their Scarlatti is better?

As for piano recordings, I own mainly Horowitz, Pogorelich, Weissenberg and Gilels.

On harpsichord, some Marlowe, Beckett and Sgrizzi - rather random selections. 

All of it on LP, not a high priority field for me so far.


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## shangoyal

Ukko said:


> Us sophisticated types believe that the harpsichord brings out the Spanish flavor at exactly the appropriate degree. Using a guitar over-Spanish-izes the music for our tastes. I would elaborate, but my monocle keeps falling off, and I need to adjust my squint.


Yup, that makes sense, I am new to Scarlatti's music, so I am probably in the fresh phase where I can take all the Spanish-ness I can get.


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## Ravndal

Modern piano is always my answer.


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## Ukko

joen_cph said:


> I found Frith in the John Field Concerti/Naxos and Zafirants in Scriabin/Naxos quite anonymous, but their Scarlatti is better?
> 
> As for piano recordings, I own mainly Horowitz, Pogorelich, Weissenberg and Gilels.
> 
> On harpsichord, some Marlowe, Beckett and Sgrizzi - rather random selections.
> 
> All of it on LP, not a high priority field for me so far.


You are going to need to jack up that priority. Scarlatti is ground zero in the piano/harpsichord controversy, due to the very nature of the sonatas. The cumulative effects of listening to a dozen of them at one go, are much different for each instrument. Repeated over the course of a few weeks, those effects are permanent; deep grooves are formed which are compatible only with the instrument heard.

A common 'remedy' is to listen to the instruments alternately - a dozen with one immediately follow by the same dozen with the other. A few days of this routine results in deleterious personality changes, which the victim seems unaware of.

Hmm... maybe your safest option is to avoid D. Scarlatti completely; it's too late for me.


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## joen_cph

Ukko said:


> You are going to need to jack up that priority. Scarlatti is ground zero in the piano/harpsichord controversy, due to the very nature of the sonatas. The cumulative effects of listening to a dozen of them at one go, are much different for each instrument. Repeated over the course of a few weeks, those effects are permanent; deep grooves are formed which are compatible only with the instrument heard.
> 
> A common 'remedy' is to listen to the instruments alternately - a dozen with one immediately follow by the same dozen with the other. A few days of this routine results in deleterious personality changes, which the victim seems unaware of.
> 
> Hmm... maybe your safest option is to avoid D. Scarlatti completely; it's too late for me.


Thanks for the warning; I also understand the dangers from approaching myriads of incomprehensible musical terms, the unpleasant sounds and discreet rattling from countless, poorly assembled old instruments, not to say one´s hair getting longer and curlier and the eyes bigger, on the verge to drop out from one´s face (as it is clearly seen in portraits of people from that bygone age) .


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## Bas

arcaneholocaust said:


> Scott Ross' harpsichord. But does my vote count if I've only listened to about 30 of them?


I back your vote and I have listened to 450 of them (am busy finishing the whole set) Ross is excellent, as are these works.


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## Mandryka

joen_cph said:


> I found Frith in the John Field Concerti/Naxos and Zafirants in Scriabin/Naxos quite anonymous, but their Scarlatti is better?
> 
> As for piano recordings, I own mainly Horowitz, Pogorelich, Weissenberg and Gilels.
> 
> On harpsichord, some Marlowe, Beckett and Sgrizzi - rather random selections.
> 
> *All of it on LP, not a high priority field for me so far*.


The problem with Scarlatti for me is that the performances just seem to make the music about keyboard effects, which gets rapidly boring. That, or the other extreme where they distort the music by romanticising it. I suppose the latter option (which you find with popular pianists like Pletnev, Michelangeli, Horowitz, Gilels, Egorov . . .) is better than the former, but I've invested a lot of effort trying to find humane non-romanticised performances. And there are some: Leonhardt (2 CDs), Blandine Verlet (3 CDs), Glen Wilson, Sergio Vartolo, Marco Farolfi, Leonardo Carrieri, Enrico Baiano, Bertrand Cuiller, Jan Belder. Skip Sempé is such a super musician that I like his Scarlatti CD too, despite myself. Less so for Hantai.

Another side to exploring Scarlatti has to do with the selection of sonatas on a CD. IMO opinion the best sonatas are the late ones. I believe that the princess he was wrinting for became too obese to cross her hands when she played, and this obliged Scarlatti to cut down the bravura effects.

There was a comment that Vartolo made in the booklet to his CD which really influenced me. He said he saw a portrait of Scarlatti where the man's features seemed to be both aristocratic and melancholic. That's what I'm looking for from a performane - aristocratic melancholy.



Bas said:


> I back your vote and I have listened to 450 of them (am busy finishing the whole set) Ross is excellent, as are these works.


Yes in a way. but he exemplifies the inhumane bravura which I'm just not interested in. I prefer Belder' set by a mile.


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## KenOC

Scarlatti -- I'll take him any which way. I have both the Ross and Belder boxes, both fine, little to choose from between them. For modern piano, hard to beat Horowitz on those that he recorded. Also that Tomsic disc (originally a drug store five-buck bargain) and versions for guitar, two-guitars, and (dare I say it) accordion. Go Scarlatti!


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## Mandryka

KenOC said:


> Scarlatti -- I'll take him any which way. I have both the Ross and Belder boxes, both fine, *little to choose from between them. *For modern piano, hard to beat Horowitz on those that he recorded. Also that Tomsic disc (originally a drug store five-buck bargain) and versions for guitar, two-guitars, and (dare I say it) accordion. Go Scarlatti!


But they're so very different!


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## KenOC

Mandryka said:


> But they're so very different!


Some may find them so, certainly.


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## juergen

I love Scarlatti's sonatas, but I can listen to them only on harpsichord. For piano, they are completely unsuitable. And the piano is unsuitable for them.


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## hreichgott

I vote all of them.


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## Novelette

Ravndal said:


> Modern piano is always my answer.


My friend, how goes K. 141?


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## PetrB

Harpsichord or contemporary piano for me...
Fabulous orchestral reworking by Lukas Foss ~ Lukas Foss: Baroque variations, for orchestra
II ~ on a Scarlatti Sonata @ 07'20''


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Harpsichord for an HIP performance, guitar for a modern instrument performance. Why guitar and not piano for a modern instrument performance? Well, the difficulty of making the music sound not "too smooth or too flash" (as Mandryka puts it) just isn't there is at would be on a modern piano, making it easier _musically_ to give a convincing performance. Use of pedals etc. detracts from the composer's intentions by creating extra harmonies from the notes that linger on. Of course, on a guitar this problem would arise as well from any open strings (or particular hand shapes eg ones that require use of a barré) that are played, but more often the guitarist can simply dampen the note that shouldn't ring on. ....but then again, the decay of a note played on the guitar is much shorter than the decay of a piano, so it is hardly an issue anyway. Any competenet guitarist would be able to play Scarlatti sonatas on their instrument without thinking of this much anyway.

Technically Scarlatti transcriptions for guitar are much more difficult than on a keyboard instrument, but I prefer the tone of a plucked string instrument such as the guitar (which also has a very wide range of colouristic effects, always a plus ) to the tone of the piano.

Here's John Williams, he isn't always my first choice guitarist (often a little lacking in musicality) but this performance is very good as a modern interpretation:


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## dgee

I like harpsichord but I've also heard some wonderful fortepiano recently and even some organ (although you'd have to pick and choose the right pieces for organ). I wouldn't choose modern piano


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## Ravndal

Novelette said:


> My friend, how goes K. 141?


Lack of discipline from my side I'm afraid. I kind of forgot it. 
Il save it for later


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## Mandryka

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Harpsichord for an HIP performance, guitar for a modern instrument performance. Why guitar and not piano for a modern instrument performance? Well, the difficulty of making the music sound not "too smooth or too flash" (as Mandryka puts it) just isn't there is at would be on a modern piano, making it easier _musically_ to give a convincing performance. Use of pedals etc. detracts from the composer's intentions by creating extra harmonies from the notes that linger on. Of course, on a guitar this problem would arise as well from any open strings (or particular hand shapes eg ones that require use of a barré) that are played, but more often the guitarist can simply dampen the note that shouldn't ring on. ....but then again, the decay of a note played on the guitar is much shorter than the decay of a piano, so it is hardly an issue anyway. Any competenet guitarist would be able to play Scarlatti sonatas on their instrument without thinking of this much anyway.
> 
> Technically Scarlatti transcriptions for guitar are much more difficult than on a keyboard instrument, but I prefer the tone of a plucked string instrument such as the guitar (which also has a very wide range of colouristic effects, always a plus ) to the tone of the piano.
> 
> Here's John Williams, he isn't always my first choice guitarist (often a little lacking in musicality) but this performance is very good as a modern interpretation:


Have you found any fortepiano Scarlatti CDs which you like?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Mandryka said:


> Have you found any fortepiano Scarlatti CDs which you like?


No, but I imagine the instrument would be quite suited....more so than the modern piano anyway. Any recommendations?


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## juergen

hreichgott said:


> I vote all of them.


I understand that. Your are a pianist. You have to do that


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## Mandryka

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> No, but I imagine the instrument would be quite suited....more so than the modern piano anyway. Any recommendations?


Mot really, apart from the ones on the Enrico Biano CD I mentioned somewhere above. There's one by Laura Alvini that I'm trmpted to buy - it's a bit expensive though.


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## Winterreisender

I voted for Harpsichord. I am aware of three excellent harpsichordists who have recorded the whole 555: Scott Ross, Pieter-Jan Belder and Richard Lester. All are available as box sets. I am tempted to say Belder is my favourite (and I find his other baroque recordings on the Brilliant Classics label to be consistently excellent) althrough really it varies from sonata to sonata.


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## Mandryka

I thought this was really nice






I like the instrument andI like the very natural sounding ornamentation.


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## juergen

Imagine this on a piano:






The piano would completely ruin the piece, IMO.


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## Mandryka

juergen said:


> Imagine this on a piano:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The piano would completely ruin the piece, IMO.


So, the moral is that some pieces are good for (forte)piano, some for organ, some for harpsichord.

The other side to this is that people even play stuff like Bach's Chromatic Fantasie and Fugue on piano, and there's an audience of music lovers.


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## Ukko

juergen said:


> Imagine this on a piano:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The piano would completely ruin the piece, IMO.


That's a 'pianoish' sounding harpsichord, though without the dynamic variation available on a piano.


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## joen_cph

Very nice clip, including the percussive effects when she "hits" the bass tangents! It seems to me however that a pianist could vary the many notes even more, though probably beyond the score ... but perhaps it´s also a matter of "knowing" tiny details in harpsichord sound more than I do.


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## Mandryka

juergen said:


> Imagine this on a piano:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The piano would completely ruin the piece, IMO.


This is too stiff for me. I like the way Enrico Baiano plays it..


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## Celloman

For some reason, I tend to prefer Bach on piano and Scarlatti on harpsichord. I don't know why this is, but maybe it's because there seem to be more recordings of Bach on the piano than on harpsichord. On the other hand, Scarlatti and his instrument just seem to go well together.


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## Ukko

Celloman said:


> For some reason, I tend to prefer Bach on piano and Scarlatti on harpsichord. I don't know why this is, but maybe it's because there seem to be more recordings of Bach on the piano than on harpsichord. On the other hand, Scarlatti and his instrument just seem to go well together.


Maybe it's because some harpsichords/musicians produce music by Scarlatti that in places resembles the product of two guitars, and that is a good fit -serendipitous or otherwise.


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## worov

juergen said:


> Imagine this on a piano:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The piano would completely ruin the piece, IMO.


Same sonata performed on piano :






I like it very much.


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## tdc

I voted harpsichord but I think his pieces work well on other instruments too. As always what the performer brings to the piece is more important than instrumentation.


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