# Left Handed violinst in orchestra?



## ViolinLvr

Hello,

I am a left handed violinst, as in bow in left hand. I play classical, as well as many other styles.

In your opinion, what would be my odds of getting into an orchestra? Be honest, say what you feel and think. 

Obviously there a big stigma attached to playing left handed in the classical world.


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## Delicious Manager

You want me to be honest, so I will. I have been a manager of orchestras and professional musicians for more than 30 years and I have to tell you stand NO CHANCE at all of getting a job in an orchestra if you play the wrong way around. Your bow will always be going in the wrong direction, with the potential to clash with your stand partner. You will also 'look' very strange in the middle of a section. Also, your instrument will be facing the opposite way to everyone else's, leading to balance problems. There is no 'stigma' against left-handed players in music. There is a higher proportion of left-handed people in the music profession than almost any other strand of society. However, they were not as unlucky as you in being 'allowed' to play a string instrument back-to-front.

Every left-handed string player I know (and there are lots, owing to the relatively high proportion of left-handers in the music business) was taught to play the correct way. They actually have the advantage of using their strong hand to play all those fiddly left-hand fingerings.

I am sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but you should never have been allowed to learn to play 'the wrong way'.


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## Chi_townPhilly

Delicious Manager said:


> You want me to be honest, so I will. I have been a manager of orchestras and professional musicians for more than 30 years and I have to tell you stand NO CHANCE at all of getting a job in an orchestra if you play the wrong way around.


No chance?

None??

Really???:devil:

I might be indulging in 'proxy-fantasy' (since I'm a left-hander myself), 
but I'm putting together a fantasy based on two simple phrases-

1. Audition-tape

2. Screened audition.


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## Delicious Manager

I'm sorry, but I mean NONE! No chance at all. No orchestra would give you a job after audition without first getting you to do a trial (how you 'fit' into an orchestra is as important as your playing) and so your planned deceit would soon be discovered.


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## ViolinLvr

It sickens me beyond comprehension that a musician, with equal or greater talents than the rest of an orchestra would be turned down because of what feels right to them. You should be ashamed that your style of music is SO DISCRIMINATORY to talented, hard working musicians, that are NO different than anyone else. The fact that you could be turning down great musicians because of aesthetics is BEYOND LOW.

I was hoping that musicians like me would be understood, and taken seriously.

Oh, and I am RIGHT hand dominant. Put that in you pipe and smoke it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## emiellucifuge

It is a tough world the music world. I dont see how this should ever stop you forming a career in chamber music?


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## ViolinLvr

Emielllusfuge--- yes I agree. I do play chamber now, and I love t.


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## Argus

Delicious Manager said:


> I'm sorry, but I mean NONE! No chance at all. No orchestra would give you a job after audition without first getting you to do a trial (how you 'fit' into an orchestra is as important as your playing) and so your planned deceit would soon be discovered.


The illusion is shattered.

I always thought the classical music 'industry' was synonymous with progressive and egalitarian attitudes. I mean The Vienna Philharmonic allowed women to become members as early as 1997.

I think I'm being unfair here. All music 'industries' are by nature conservative. It's the constant tussle with the forward thinking of the artists that force the non-artistic support to 'move with the times'.

Try and join or possibly start a free improvisation ensemble. You'll be allowed to bow it with your **** in that kind of arena.


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## ViolinLvr

Yes, I know. It really is sad.

I do have a blossoming career in Alt. styles... I just always wondered if orchestra was something i could do. I have the chops. But it seems I dont have a choice.....


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## Chi_townPhilly

I shouldn't doubt that the Mgr. is giving counsel based on his best understanding of the situation, and that his counsel is worth heeding. However, I *do* take a little umbrage at the fact that my 'fantasy' as I described it unfolding was characterized as "deceit."

It kind of reminds me of the movie 'School Ties,' where the love-interest girl separated herself from the male protagonist because she found out that he was a (well.. how do I put this) non-Gentile. Finally, he tracks her down, and in the exchange, he asks her "well- what religion are YOU?!" Pressed for an answer, she says "Presbyterian." Then, in that half-mocking tone done best by late-teens, he snaps back "and all this time I never knew(!)"


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## emiellucifuge

Are there no orchestras soley for left-handed musicians?


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## ViolinLvr

Chi-Town I agree. I think it would be an interesting experiment to do. Play very well, then tell them you are left handed. Muahaha!!


Emiel--- I have looked, but have failed to find any. I wish there was one!


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## mamascarlatti

So have you restrung your violin so that the E string is still at the "bottom", and you still use the same fingers, or just turned it upside down?


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## ViolinLvr

I have a custom left-handed fiddle.


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## Delicious Manager

emiellucifuge said:


> Are there no orchestras soley for left-handed musicians?


Some people are missing the point here. There are a LOT of left-handed musicians. It's just that they have all learnt to play their instruments the correct way, that's all. It is not discrimination to deny a player entry to an orchestra who does not play his or her instrument properly - it is simply a matter of practicality. An orchestra needs to function like a well-oiled machine. If one of the parts of that machine doesn't fit properly, it won't work as it should, simple as that.

And apologies to Chi_townPhilly if I inadvertently caused offence with my use of the word 'deceit'. I know you were only surmising a hypothetical situation, but, if it had become real, it WOULD have amounted to a deceit. Sorry 'bout that.


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## emiellucifuge

I understand that DM, i meant to ask whether there were any for musicians who had learnt the wrong way such the OP, there must be others like that?


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## Rasa

I'm a left handed pianist, whatever shall I do....


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## Chi_townPhilly

Rasa said:


> I'm a left handed pianist, whatever shall I do....


Familiarize yourself with the works written for Wittgenstein.


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## Huilunsoittaja

I dare you to start a left-handed orchestra. Get flute players who play backwards too! They actually use different shaped instruments for that purpose. If everyone is strange at the same time, it will look normal.


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## ViolinLvr

What the hell?????? I am not playing my instrument incorrectly! Everyone has two hands. They are the same. It doesn't matter which hand does what!!!
It is very pompous of you to say that someone is doing something wrong. And I believe YOU are missing the point. It makes sense for a left hand dominant person to play right handed. The strong hand fingers.
It makes more sense for a right handed dominant person to play left handed. ( Like me)

So, you apologize to Chi_Town for one silly thing, then insult me deeply?! 

Let me ask you something, if a very talented player who had the capacity of Itzhak Perlman walked through your door to audition, and was Left handed, would you pass them by? Even if they made your orchestra better?

I think that is ridiculous. Music is about the ear not the eye.


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## ViolinLvr

That post was aimed at DManager...... Everyone else, you are right!


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## Rasa

You can rage all you want, low chance of getting into an orchestra.


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## AmateurComposer

Argus said:


> I mean The Vienna Philharmonic allowed women to become members as early as 1997.


Yes. But earlier this orchestra did not accept women players. So, the women players organized and established an all female orchestra.


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## Delicious Manager

Seems like someone's getting a little over-defensive here :-S


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## Rasa

Delicious Manager said:


> Seems like someone's getting a little over-defensive here :-S


Stop reasoning from your experience you!


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## Delicious Manager

Rasa said:


> Stop reasoning from your experience you!


I know! It's a terrible habit. I'm sorry.

It's only 30 years I've been doing this - I know nothing, really


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## Rasa

Delicious Manager said:


> I know! It's a terrible habit. I'm sorry.
> 
> It's only 30 years I've been doing this - I know nothing, really


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## ViolinLvr

I don't care if you're 'experienced'. It's still discrimination. :scold:


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## LindenLea

For many years the City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra had a quite high profile and very visible left-handed violinist (or she may have been viola?) ...it looked slightly awkward, but it still didn't stop them (during Sir Simon Rattle's period there at least) from rising to become one of Europe's greatest orchestras, and winning numerous awards and sell out tours. So I'd say that what's good for the remarkable Rattle, should be good enough for anybody!!! My wife incidentally is left handed, but my shirts are always perfectly pressed, and dinner is always as delicious as any cooked by righties!!


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## ViolinLvr

So they played left-handed? Like bow in left hand? :tiphat:


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## Saturnus

ViolinLvr said:


> What the hell?????? I am not playing my instrument incorrectly! Everyone has two hands. They are the same. It doesn't matter which hand does what!!!
> It is very pompous of you to say that someone is doing something wrong. And I believe YOU are missing the point. It makes sense for a left hand dominant person to play right handed. The strong hand fingers.
> It makes more sense for a right handed dominant person to play left handed. ( Like me)
> 
> So, you apologize to Chi_Town for one silly thing, then insult me deeply?!
> 
> Let me ask you something, if a very talented player who had the capacity of Itzhak Perlman walked through your door to audition, and was Left handed, would you pass them by? Even if they made your orchestra better?
> 
> I think that is ridiculous. Music is about the ear not the eye.


I think you're not taking into account that your bow or left hand would often crash into the bow or the right hand of a fellow violinist... That kind of silliness is something most orchestras don't really want. Of course if you were way better than the other applicants you'd get the job and they'd make extra space for you on stage, but the reality is that most orchestras are overrun with people wanting to join them, and an inconvenience like playing the other way round simply puts you behind all those who are equally good musicians as you.
Orchestras are all about co-ordination and team-playing, seeing a group of 60 people working as one is just one of the feat an orchestra is required to pull, and you'd simply ruin that image (don't forget most orchestras are dependent on the financial support of people who don't necessarily know anything about music). Orchestras are not really a good place for any kind of creative artistry, and have never been. 
If you are really good enough violinist to join a professional orchestra you'd have better chance as a soloist. Of course you'd have to cope with the lower wages and higher stress, but your left-handedness would actually help you instead of working against you because the whole idea of the soloist is someone who sticks out.


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## ViolinLvr

Yeah, I understand that. I dont really have any interest in orchestra, i just think it's sad that it's not possible for me.

Yeah, I have a lot more interest in soloing. And you are right. I cant count the times someone has said "You're that lefthander! I remember you." :tiphat:


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## arturs86

I can't imagine any professional orchestra who will allow You to play "left handed" violin. Because all left handed people I know - they play like everybody and there is no problem with them. They even got some better techniques on left hand..

But if You play on the opposite way.. that could start a little mess in bowings, balance etc.


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## wingracer

I think the cry of "discrimination" is a bit over the top. Orchestra is not the only thing a lefty would find difficult to get in to. You also would not be able to play 3rd base, short stop or 2nd base in baseball at a high level.

What about tall and/or fat people? Would you consider their inability to get a job as a jockey or F1 race car driver to be discrimination?


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## Delicious Manager

wingracer said:


> I think the cry of "discrimination" is a bit over the top. Orchestra is not the only thing a lefty would find difficult to get in to. You also would not be able to play 3rd base, short stop or 2nd base in baseball at a high level.
> 
> What about tall and/or fat people? Would you consider their inability to get a job as a jockey or F1 race car driver to be discrimination?


BRAVO!! wingracer. Like you seem to be, I am fed-up to the back teeth with these random 'PC' cries of 'DISCRIMINATION!' when one points out a person's unsuitability for a task on perfectly balanced and sensible criteria.

A breath of fresh air! I'd like to start a forum dedicated to the deconstruction and destruction of 'Political Correctness'.


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## kv466

"correct way"?...Lvr, don't listen to this guy or anyone...keep playing and if you're great, you're great and it doesn't matter if you get to play alongside twenty other some odd other musicians playing the same darn thing...stand out from the crowd and play well and the reward will far surpass being accepted into an orchestra...aim for the lead...Jimi Hendrix flipped his Stratocaster upside down, strung it 'wrong' and made musical history...play for yourself and play well, the rest will unfold naturally.


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## Delicious Manager

mcamacho said:


> "correct way"?...Lvr, don't listen to this guy or anyone...keep playing and if you're great, you're great and it doesn't matter if you get to play alongside twenty other some odd other musicians playing the same darn thing...stand out from the crowd and play well and the reward will far surpass being accepted into an orchestra...aim for the lead...Jimi Hendrix flipped his Stratocaster upside down, strung it 'wrong' and made musical history...play for yourself and play well, the rest will unfold naturally.


Yes that's right - ignore people with years and years of professional experience! Good idea!


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## kv466

An excellent one, I'd say


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## ViolinLvr

Mcamacho, you are my new hero.


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## ViolinLvr

Dearest Delicious Manager, you annoy me beyond end. Have a nice day.


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## Delicious Manager

ViolinLvr said:


> Dearest Delicious Manager, you annoy me beyond end. Have a nice day.


Sorry if the truth annoys you. Don't shoot the messenger - I'm just telling you how it is in the profession. If you wanted your ego massaging, maybe you should look elsewhere than a forum with many experienced people contributing to it.


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## TresPicos

ViolinLvr said:


> Dearest Delicious Manager, you annoy me beyond end. Have a nice day.


- Would I get into an orchestra?
- Judging from what I know about orchestras: no. 
- But that's unfair! I hate you!

How old are you? Nine?


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## daspianist

ViolinLvr said:


> What the hell?????? I am not playing my instrument incorrectly! Everyone has two hands. They are the same. It doesn't matter which hand does what!!!
> It is very pompous of you to say that someone is doing something wrong. And I believe YOU are missing the point. It makes sense for a left hand dominant person to play right handed. The strong hand fingers.
> It makes more sense for a right handed dominant person to play left handed. ( Like me)
> 
> So, you apologize to Chi_Town for one silly thing, then insult me deeply?!
> 
> Let me ask you something, if a very talented player who had the capacity of Itzhak Perlman walked through your door to audition, and was Left handed, would you pass them by? Even if they made your orchestra better?
> 
> I think that is ridiculous. Music is about the ear not the eye.


Wahhh wahhh - you wanted honest opinions, and you got them. There are practical consideraions as to why left handed violinist will not work in an _orchestral_ setting - not chamber, not solo, _orchestral_.

By all means, just try to apply to an orchestra anywhere with any renown, and keep us posted on your _successes_. You play left handed fiddle - no one serious will take you.

_"but but but... i can play solo.. everyone will remember me!"_

Um yep - they rememeber you because the (awkward) way you _play_, not your musical qualities or interpretation.

_"wahhhhhh!"_

Here, fill out this form:


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## GraemeG

How does someone play the violin left-handed to start with? It's not as though a violin teacher would be keen to help. And there aren't left-handed fiddles just lying around to pick up and play.
What percent of the world's violins are built left-handed - strings & bridge reversed, bass-bar & sound-post moved. A tenth-of-a-percent? A hundredth?
You can't just play left-handed 'by accident' as it were.
<shakes head>
Bizzare.
GG


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## ViolinLvr

By all means, just try to apply to an orchestra anywhere with any renown, and keep us posted on your _successes_. You play left handed fiddle - no one serious will take you.

_"but but but... i can play solo.. everyone will remember me!"_

Um yep - they rememeber you because the (awkward) way you _play_, not your musical qualities or interpretation.

That's nothing but mean spirited. I feel sorry for the people you work with. I would never judge as you do. 
I wont waste my time here anymore with you bizarre numbskulls. You suck.


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## ViolinLvr

Oh shut up.


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## ViolinLvr

TresPicos said:


> - Would I get into an orchestra?
> - Judging from what I know about orchestras: no.
> - But that's unfair! I hate you!
> 
> How old are you? Nine?


Oh shut up. What do you know!


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## daspianist

ViolinLvr said:


> Oh shut up. What do you know!












You came here asking people for their thoughts. I quote: _"Be honest, say what you feel and think. "_ In retrospect, did you really want people to say what they were _thinking_?


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## An Die Freude

ViolinLvr said:


> Oh shut up. What do you know!


I smell a troll.


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## Liberman




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## Argus

Liberman said:


>


I can see a left handed double bass player, and possibly a left handed cellist to the right of the picture but I can only see half of the bow and the upper bout of the cello. All the violinists are playing the standard way though.


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