# Would there ever be another JS Bach?



## Nevum (Nov 28, 2013)

Best composer of all times. By far. Will another genius like him ever be born again?

Yes - No


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

There already have been since.

I want to know if there will be another like Stravinsky.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

As we are all mortal, we will never know.


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## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

Although the matter of whether Bach was really the most brilliant composer of all time is quite subjective (even though I personally think he was), there can be no doubt that he was a genius of the sort that comes along once every few centuries.
I say the answer is _no,_ there will never be another J.S. Bach, because Bach was Bach and everyone else is everyone else. The same can be said of Mozart, Handel, Beethoven, and so on.


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## Oresteia (Dec 4, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> I want to know if there will be another like Stravinsky.


Yes, we already had Xenakis aka "Stravinsky phase #2"


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## Timothy (Jul 19, 2017)

Nevum said:


> Best composer of all times. By far. Will another genius like him ever be born again?
> 
> Yes - No


Why would you want there to be? :lol:

One is enough, that is my limit


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## arnerich (Aug 19, 2016)

Honestly if Bach was alive, but nobody knew it was Bach, his music wouldn't be widely appreciated no matter how good it is. Don't get me wrong I love his music. But if he was still composing baroque music in todays' era his music would be ostracized by modern composers... 

but I also believe any new music he'd compose would eventually receive wide spread recognition, but he likely wouldn't be alive to see it. In which case it would basically be no different than when he was alive during his own era.


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## Ravel (Dec 4, 2017)

I agree that JS Bach is the all time God of music. His unbelievably enormous repertoire, as well as his inarguable perfection is like no one the world has ever seen or will ever see. A lot of composers are like that in a way, but I think Bach is the greatest of all. I think perhaps some composers have gotten close to the impact that Bach had (in that matter, I agree with the three B's - Johann Sebastian Bach, Ludwig van Beethoven and Johannes Brahms really do represent a strain of innovation that is both unique and thematic in each; Brahms perhaps is the closest in characteristics to Bach's music, followed closely by Felix Mendelssohn). Though I am convinced that Bach is indeed the greatest, he is not my favorite. Despite his relatively small library of works, Ravel enchants me more than all the others. His mastery of orchestration and pure innovation combined create something incredibly powerful in shimmering French fashion. His ballet Daphnis et Chloe, in my opinion is the best composition yet written.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Ravel said:


> I agree that JS Bach is the all time God of music. His unbelievably enormous repertoire, as well as his inarguable perfection is like no one the world has ever seen or will ever see. A lot of composers are like that in a way, but I think Bach is the greatest of all. I think perhaps some composers have gotten close to the impact that Bach had (in that matter, I agree with the three B's - Johann Sebastian Bach, Ludwig van Beethoven and Johannes Brahms really do represent a strain of innovation that is both unique and thematic in each; Brahms perhaps is the closest in characteristics to Bach's music, followed closely by Felix Mendelssohn). Though I am convinced that Bach is indeed the greatest, he is not my favorite. Despite his relatively small library of works, Ravel enchants me more than all the others. His mastery of orchestration and pure innovation combined create something incredibly powerful in shimmering French fashion. His ballet Daphnis et Chloe, in my opinion is the best composition yet written.


Great first post, welcome to Talk Classical, Ravel


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Musical geniuses aren't born. They are trained and apprenticed. Bach was the product of a family whose business for generations was composing. He is a product of a very specific social and economic setting that will likely never occur again.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Nevum said:


> Best composer of all times. By far. Will another genius like him ever be born again?
> 
> Yes - No


No, he isn't and no, they won't.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

What would "another JS Bach" or "another genius like him" actually _be_?

Do you mean someone whose music sounds like Bach's? And if not, how could we determine that she or he _is_ another Bach?


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

JS Bach. Why weren’t his sons geniuses if they were trained by and apprenticed to one of the greatest musicians of all time? How about because they weren’t born with the same innate potential though they were very very good. There must be some inherent genius that one is born with first. Not everything is just social conditioning and training, but the opportunity to learn and study is of course very important to help develop a genius to the full. Some want to explain a genius logically and it can’t be done, because there are intangible factors that cannot be anticipated, measured or explained, or anyone could be a genius if it was only a matter of the proper training and right social conditioning. The world will just have to wait for another one to come along who has the potential, and then of course s/he won’t sound like Bach at all but will sound entirely like himself.


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## chrish (Aug 21, 2016)

There really isn't much to separate Beethoven from Bach..


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Larkenfield said:


> JS Bach. Why weren't his sons geniuses if they were trained by and apprenticed to one of the greatest musicians of all time? How about because they weren't born with the same innate potential though they were very very good. There must be some inherent genius that one is born with first. Not everything is just social conditioning and training, but the opportunity to learn and study is of course very important to help develop a genius to the full. Some want to explain a genius logically and it can't be done, because there are intangible factors that cannot be anticipated, measured or explained, or anyone could be a genius if it was only a matter of the proper training and right social conditioning. The world will just have to wait for another one to come along who has the potential, and then of course s/he won't sound like Bach at all but will sound entirely like himself.


Yes I agree that upbringing and social conditions don't fully explain it. But I'm not convinced one is necessarily born with a kind of innate genius when it comes to music. I think in some cases that is probably true, but in others an individual may be in the right place at the right time, working hard and therefore becomes an appropriate channel for the "muses" to work through.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Larkenfield said:


> JS Bach. *Why weren't his sons geniuses* if they were trained by and apprenticed to one of the greatest musicians of all time? How about because they weren't born with the same innate potential though they were very very good. There must be some inherent genius that one is born with first. Not everything is just social conditioning and training, but the opportunity to learn and study is of course very important to help develop a genius to the full. Some want to explain a genius logically and it can't be done, because there are intangible factors that cannot be anticipated, measured or explained, or anyone could be a genius if it was only a matter of the proper training and right social conditioning. The world will just have to wait for another one to come along who has the potential, and then of course s/he won't sound like Bach at all but will sound entirely like himself.


Mistaken premise. CPE was a genius. At least Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven seemed to think so. But what do they know?


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

Yeah, Siegfried Wagner was a genius too.


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

EdwardBast said:


> Mistaken premise. CPE was a genius. At least Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven seemed to think so. But what do they know?


What is your source where they specifically use the word "genius" referring to CPE Bach?


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

EdwardBast said:


> Musical geniuses aren't born. They are trained and apprenticed.


If this premise was true (it isn't), there would be thousands of musical geniuses as great as JSB, Mozart, Beethoven, etc.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

For me, inherent in this question is: "Will there ever be another person as interested and committed to counterpoint that was as brilliant and talented as Bach?"

Counterpoint isn't the rage right now, so we will all have to wait for a time when it comes back. I think it will eventually, but it may be after we're all dead.


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## Totenfeier (Mar 11, 2016)

20centrfuge said:


> For me, inherent in this question is: "Will there ever be another person as interested and committed to counterpoint that was as brilliant and talented as Bach?"
> 
> Counterpoint isn't the rage right now, so we will all have to wait for a time when it comes back. I think it will eventually, but it may be after we're all dead.


This reminds me of what Dr. Samuel Johnson (the original, not our dear colleague here on TC) said about Alexander Pope:

"A thousand years will pass before there is another with the versifying power of Pope."

It will have to, since endless sequences of rhymed couplets in iambic pentameter are also not the rage right now in poetry.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

As someone that does not care about classical music from pre-20th century, there are many composers I feel have surpassed Bach.

But since taste in music is completely subjective, I would never say that any of them are "the best composer of all times".


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

jdec said:


> What is your source where they specifically use the word "genius" referring to CPE Bach?


They didn't specifically use the word genius. Mozart said he was the father of us all, Beethoven said everyone should study his scores, Haydn acknowledged a great debt to him. They regarded him as the greatest composer of his generation. In my book, anyone ranked as the greatest composer of a generation is a genius, especially when they compose the most exploratory works of that era in most musical genres.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

jdec said:


> If this premise was true (it isn't), there would be thousands of musical geniuses as great as JSB, Mozart, Beethoven, etc.


Of course it's true. Musical genius can only be assessed in those who have been trained and who have produced a body of work. Therefore my statement is irrefutable. Not everyone can be trained to that level, obviously. Had Bach been born into a family of bankers would he have been a musical genius? Or would he have been a really good banker?  The answers to these questions are the difference between born and trained.


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## BabyGiraffe (Feb 24, 2017)

Larkenfield said:


> JS Bach. Why weren't his sons geniuses if they were trained by and apprenticed to one of the greatest musicians of all time?


You know what is funny - Bach wasn't famous at all (outside of being known as a scholar) and some of his sons and one of his grandsons were actually renowned composers during their time.

I blame the mass medias for the whole Mozart, Bach, Vivaldi mania. I'm pretty sure that 99 % of the people can't recognize is it Bach, Telemann, Scarlati, Vivaldi or some forgotten composer when you play them "X" piece, but if you say it's Bach - of course, they will say: This is a work of a genius.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

The historically gifted genius is not only _born_ with the potential to be developed but also the_ circumstantial conditions_ of life that will enable him (her) to be _trained_. It's called Destiny... and both sides of the coin are necessary for there to be a Bach or a Mozart... Geniuses are born _and_ trained. Someone could be presented with all the opportunities to develop in the world, but unless there's something inside the person that recognizes & seizes the chance, nothing will come of it-and it's the innate response to something fantastic that the "everying in life is the result of training and conditioning" crowd will give no credence to. Most geniuses know what they want to do in life as early as 4 or 5 years old-read their stories!-and then their innate gift develops throughout a lifetime with tremendously demanding training and practice. In other words, the resources to develop their genius are somehow provided by life-because genius demands it.


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

Larkenfield said:


> The historically gifted genius is not only _born_ with the potential to be developed but also the_ circumstantial conditions_ of life that will enable him (her) to be _trained_. It's called Destiny... and both sides of the coin are necessary for there to be a Bach or a Mozart... *Geniuses are born and trained*. Someone could be presented with all the opportunities to develop in the world, but unless there's something inside the person that recognized & seizes the chance, nothing will come of it-and it's the innate response to something fantastic that the "everying in life is the result of training and conditioning" crowd will give no credence to. Most geniuses know what they want to do in life as early as 4 or 5 years old-read their stories!-and then their innate gift develops throughout a lifetime with tremendously demanding training and practice.


Indeed. All of this you have written totally makes sense.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Nevum said:


> Best composer of all times. By far. Will another genius like him ever be born again?
> 
> Yes - No


There is no need for another Bach. Bach is Bach. Pure and simple.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Like in the “Genius” thread, there were quite a few geniuses, or at least works of genius. Some geniuses are not as well-liked, or well known.


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## Holden4th (Jul 14, 2017)

I always have a problem with the word 'genius'. It's like the parents who think their children are 'gifted' (which I prefer to genius but both are execrable terms). 

JSB was a tradesman and making music was his trade. He was probably one of the best tradesman of his era and he regularly churned out cantatas and other liturgical works for the church but outside of his small province he would have been relatively unknown. He composed on commission which today's composers also do. He was very interested in musical technique (probably borne from some of the poor musicians he had to work with) and tried to address that, hence the WTC. 

Bach's life has been repeated with the likes of Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert, Chopin who all needed sponsorship or employment to carry on. I wonder how many good classical works never saw the light of day because the composer never got the chance to realise their composing dreams as financial support wasn't available.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

What a bad question, JS Bach is JS Bach just because there is no second one to come again, ever.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I thought Cabanilles was the Spanish Bach - maybe only in Spain.


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## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

The whole proposition, repeated endlessly - e.g. will there ever be another Obama? - makes no sense to me except to set up rhetorical avalanches.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> I thought Cabanilles was the Spanish Bach - maybe only in Spain.


I thought he was the Spanish Buxtehude.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

I’ve thought as well, will there ever be another Prokofiev?

I’ve wished many times that the answer woyld be “yes.”

I think, honestly, true originals never get duplicated.
There will never be another Bach, Mozart, Schubert, Stravinsky, Messiaen, Beethoven....


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Anyone checked a German phone book? There may be some Johann Sebastian Bachs in there—especially given the number of kids the composer had.


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

Blancrocher said:


> Anyone checked a German phone book? There may be some Johann Sebastian Bachs in there-especially given the number of kids the composer had.


A few times 'Johann Bach' + a few times 'Sebastian Bach', and many schools + streets hits. No 'Johann Sebastian Bach' in the persons list of _Das Telefonbuch_. I didn't check Austria or other countries however.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Ariasexta said:


> What a bad question, JS Bach is JS Bach just because there is no second one to come again, ever.


My thoughts exactly. Perfection is what it is, there is no need for replication. Period.


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## StDior (May 28, 2015)

New JS Bach? Yes we have. Check out Mitterer's Inwendig losgelöst.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

^ That score looks a lot like the circuitry-schema for an analogue synthesiser I've been repairing.


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## Jacob Brooks (Feb 21, 2017)

Well Haydn was already 20 when Bach died. So I wager a genius like that is not that uncommon.


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