# Mahler



## hdk132

I have decided that my lifelong goal is to find and own THE BEST recording of each of Mahler's symphonies.

So far, the only one I have is #6 by Bernstien and Wiener Phil. Nobody else seems to get the power and anger. I think my next ones are going to be #1 and #5 (I have heard both live by Michael Stern @ Kansas City Symphony). Lets get the debate started!


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## handlebar

ooooo. Just my cup o' tea! 

Here are my favourites:

Symphony #1--Abbado/Chicago SO
Symphony #2--Boulez/Vienna PO
--Rattle/CBSO
--Kubelik/Bayern Rundsfunk SO
Symphony #3--Horenstein/LSO-This is THE best recording ever of the 3rd in my humble opinion!
--Boulez/Vienna PO
--Tilson Thomas/SFSO
Symphony #4--Tilson Thomas/SFSO-The vocals are stunning on this recording
--Zander/Philharmonia/Tilling
--Mengleberg/Vincent/Concertgebouw 1939
Symphony #5--Bernstein/NYPO
--Zander/Philharmonia
Symphony #6--Boulez/Vienna PO
--Abbado/Vienna PO
--Tilson Thomas/SFSO
Symphony #7--Abbado/Berlin PO
--Tilson Thomas/SFSO
Symphony #8--Bernstein/Vienna PO
--Solti/Chicago SO
Symphony #9--Walter/Vienna PO 1938
--Boulez/Chicago SO
Symphony #10-Rattle/Berlin PO

I KNOW there will be those who dislike these selections but we can't all like the same recordings can we??
I left out some rather popular conductors such as Tennstedt (too many cuts)Barbirolli(NOT a good Mahler conductor IMHO )and Klemperer as he cut things up as well. I have one philosophy: Don't mess with the score! LOL

The Tilson Thomas recordings have proved to be sonically amazing and I like many of them. Same goes for Boulez and Zander,especially on SACD recordings.
Bernstein was a decent Mahler conductor but I just cannot get into his theory of Mahlerian thought. Lenny was a wonderful American composer of American works and even conducted other American composers very well. But that's all that I can handle.
Boulez sees Mahler's vision better than most i think. His fine tuning and micro-managing of the orchestra is just the kind of thing Mahler loved to do with his own groups.
Same with Abbado and Zander.
Sure,I missed including many fine recordings. There are so many good ones. These just stand out to me right now.

I can't wait to see the other opinions! Keep them coming friends!

Jim


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## Yagan Kiely

Why are there three threads with the same name?


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## World Violist

Yagan Kiely said:


> Why are there three threads with the same name?


Yes, that occurred to me as well, but the three "Mahler" threads were started by three different posters, if that helps any...

Ok, here are my favorite recordings of the Mahler symphonies:

1- Mitropoulos/Minneapolis Symphony Orchestra, Bernstein/Concertgebouw
2- Bernstein/NYPO (either one, really) or Tennstedt/LPO
3- Chailly/Concertgebouw
4- Mengelberg/Concertgebouw
5- Barbirolli/New Philharmonia
6- ... I really need to hear the Bernstein/VPO... but for now the Mitropoulos that I have (the radio symphony one) is my current favorite, though I've heard good things about the Mitropoulos/NYPO one also... but go for the Bernstein.
7- no opinion yet, but I've heard good stuff about Gielen's recording
8- I keep coming back to Bernstein's old recording with the LSO (not NYPO; he never recorded it with them, unfortunately), but Chailly's with the Concertgebouw is another great, as is Ozawa's with the BSO... for goodness' sake, get all three if you can! The Solti/Chicago one is, in my opinion, way overrated, though I've warmed up to it since first listening. Just a bit though.
9- This is another one you MUST have multiple recordings of. It's simply too vast to have just one and call it "the best." There are several ways of conducting it, and they are all excellently represented on disc. The quicker, more poetic way is epitomized by Bruno Walter (Columbia Orchestra preferably, although the older Vienna one has its merits) and John Barbirolli; the middle way, far more intense and emotional generally, by Bernstein with the Berliner Philharmoniker; and the slower, more world-weary way is done very well by Bernstein with the Concertgebouw, Chailly with the Concertgebouw, and James Levine with whatever orchestra you prefer...

You can't have one single best record of any of the Mahler symphonies.


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## hdk132

Oh boy my life just got lots more complicated. Luckly I have a while...

Bank account's gonna suffer.



> You can't have one single best record of an of the Mahler symphonies.


Yeah. Perhaps we shall interpret "the best" as a utopian poetic phrase?

It is my impression that Bernstien likes to take things slow, and thus he is like cilantro: you either love him or hate him? He is one of my 2 favorite conductors...


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## World Violist

hdk132 said:


> It is my impression that Bernstien likes to take things slow...


Bernstein is not always slow. His older recordings are rarely the slowest, although there are times when he is slower than most (evened out, however, by times that are faster than most!). He knew how to play with the audience's emotions, and that seems to automatically register as "slow" to most people... and that is not the case at all.

As a side... I wonder if his DG cycle is the slowest one overall on record. It must at least be a contender (although I'm sure that if James Levine were to get his act together and finish a cycle already, he would be one also)!


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## handlebar

I sold off my Levine recordings. Just did not like them at all. He was certainly slow and lethargic to me.
I felt like i was driving with someone who was "speeding"along at 30 on the freeway.

Lenny could be like that sometimes in his later recordings. I do agree that his earlier Mahler was better.
Some of the newer DG cycle symphonies are good though.

Jim


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## jamzky

*Szell for Mahler 4 help*

Well I am looking for Szell/Raskin performance of Mahler 4 and asking if anyone has it and feels generous?  Maybe you know where I could get it. You can drop me a line. It's not on itunes.

Also, another point, Daniel Gatti conducting the same symphony. Does anyone know that? It was recommended as first choice on BBC building a library. An interesting choice.

J


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## Lang

handlebar said:


> Barbirolli(NOT a good Mahler conductor IMHO )


To me, Barbirolli is the supreme Mahler conductor. I know of no other performances which capture both the tension, and the detail, of the music. Most conductors tend either to rush, to achieve the tension, and thus lose detail, or vice versa.

And Barbirolli is also supreme when it comes to the articulation of the instruments. Listen to any of his Mahler recordings, and you will hear that each phrase is shaped and articulated in a way that doesn't happen with other interpreters.

And then there is the emotion he manages to convey. I once saw him conduct a performance of the Sixth Symphony, and it was one of the most overwhelming musical experiences I have ever had.

But, as always, musical interpretation remains a matter of opinion.


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## handlebar

Admittedly I have not heard all extant Barbirolli recordings. I own 4 of them and have heard a few more than that with score in hand. I didn't like the cuts he made and just didn't feel he had a connection with Herr Mahler. But you are right: we all have different opinion, one not necessarily more valid than the next.
At least we can agree to differ there 

Jim



Lang said:


> To me, Barbirolli is the supreme Mahler conductor. I know of no other performances which capture both the tension, and the detail, of the music. Most conductors tend either to rush, to achieve the tension, and thus lose detail, or vice versa.
> 
> And Barbirolli is also supreme when it comes to the articulation of the instruments. Listen to any of his Mahler recordings, and you will hear that each phrase is shaped and articulated in a way that doesn't happen with other interpreters.
> 
> And then there is the emotion he manages to convey. I once saw him conduct a performance of the Sixth Symphony, and it was one of the most overwhelming musical experiences I have ever had.
> 
> But, as always, musical interpretation remains a matter of opinion.


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## xJuanx

jamzky said:


> Well I am looking for Szell/Raskin performance of Mahler 4 and asking if anyone has it and feels generous?  Maybe you know where I could get it. You can drop me a line. It's not on itunes.
> 
> Also, another point, Daniel Gatti conducting the same symphony. Does anyone know that? It was recommended as first choice on BBC building a library. An interesting choice.
> 
> J


I own that album, it comes with Lieder eines farhenden Gesellen sang by von Stade. Is a Sony album, it should be somewhere on the internet.


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## mueske

I have got a problem, a few weeks ago I decided to google Mahler's first symphony, and got directed to a music streaming site with the fourth movement from said work waiting to be played. As I was bored, I of course decided to give it a listen.

And wow, the best rendition of the fourth movement I had ever heard started playing, powerful and clear at the same time, all in all a great Mahler! only problem, no orchestra is mentioned, no conductor, nothing... I'd really like to know who/which/when and all that, because I'd like to buy the recording if possible.

http://www.imeem.com/saintbrent/mus...hler-symphony-no-1-in-d-major-titan-iv-sturm/

Anyone got any clue as to which orchestra, which conductor,... it is? I don't think it's Kubelik, also not Abbado, probably not Bernstein (never heard his first though), not Gergiev, not Dudamel, I really have no clue, which is a shame, because I think it would belong in this list you're trying to make!


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## TresPicos

xJuanx said:


> I own that album, it comes with Lieder eines farhenden Gesellen sang by von Stade. Is a Sony album, it should be somewhere on the internet.


I own it too. One of my most treasured albums. The "Lieder..." is a fantastic bonus.


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## World Violist

handlebar said:


> Admittedly I have not heard all extant Barbirolli recordings. I own 4 of them and have heard a few more than that with score in hand. I didn't like the cuts he made and just didn't feel he had a connection with Herr Mahler. But you are right: we all have different opinion, one not necessarily more valid than the next.
> At least we can agree to differ there
> 
> Jim


Wait a minute... cuts??? I've never heard Barbirolli put CUTS in a Mahler score!

I've heard his studio recordings of the 5th, 6th, and 9th, and I love them all.


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## YsayeOp.27#6

hdk132 said:


> So far, the only one I have is #6 by Bernstien and Wiener Phil. Nobody else seems to get the power and anger.


To which recordings did you compare this particular one?


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## handlebar

World Violist said:


> Wait a minute... cuts??? I've never heard Barbirolli put CUTS in a Mahler score!
> 
> I've heard his studio recordings of the 5th, 6th, and 9th, and I love them all.


I was referring to the 2nd. The others you mention seem fine to me.
I will dig out my score and CD and let you know where I found them. It has been a few years since I noted such and I only remember the cuts in the 2 and last movement both of the 2nd Symphony.Minor cuts but there nonetheless.

Not a huge deal. Just that I noticed it.

Jim


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## EarlyCuyler

hdk132 said:


> So far, the only one I have is #6 by Bernstien and Wiener Phil. Nobody else seems to get the power and anger.


For power and anger in 6, no one comes close to Israel/Mehta. The hammer blow's in the finale, especially the last one, will blow your mind. The low brass had to have blood in their mouthpieces after that. Another good 6 was/is available from the Baltimore Symphony. On the Zinman Legacy set. As far as the others...

1/ Danish National Radio Symphony/Segersta. Exceptional orchestral playing.
2/ I own 23 recordings of this symphony, the finest being Klemperer/Philharmonia, and I know not a critic favoritethe latest Boulez/Vienna. Abbado/Lucerne, amazing.
3/ Cincinnati Symphony/Jesus-Lopez Cobos. The best trombone solo you will hear, and just a spectacular reading all in all. Lucerne/Abbado, amazing as well.
4/ I...HATE...this symphony. I prefer to forget it ever happened.
5/ NYPO/Mehta. One of the two best recording ever made by the New York Philharmonic. Also the Lucerne Festival/Abbado on DVD. Probably my favorite all around. That orchestra is unbelievable.
6/ Mehta/Israel Philharmonic. Extremely committed reading. Will blow your windows out, which is what this piece is supposed to do in parts. But can also stun you with how quiet an orchestra can be. Lucerne/Abbado, again for reasons stated above.
7/ Lucerne/Abbado. I'm just now getting into this symphony. And this is the best i've heard so far.
8/ Haitink/Concertgebouw, or Solti/Chicago. Both are wonderful, very wonderful.
Das Lied/ The Real #9. Reiner/Chicago.
9/ Cobos/Cincinnati. Great recording, of not one of my favorite symphonies.
10/ Several Performing versions, the best of which is the Deryck Cooke. Rattle's recording is great. For the Mazzetti version, Cincinnati/Cobos.

Bernstein in my opinion is the most overrated Mahler conductor of all time. That is speaking of his second traversal of the cycle. His first was quite striking. The second, was the definition of self indulgent. A perfect example of what NOT to do. Which could be said for just about all of Bernstein's later recordings. Except for the NYPO/Shostakovich 5 from 1979. That is spectacular, aside from the complete and utter impotence of the low horn parts in the 1st movement.


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## Audiotom

I am fairly new to Mahler
I found it difficult getting into his work initially till I heard a performance of the "10th"


I have the EMI Complete Works boxset and Solti's 2nd and 8th on vinyl

Any recommendations to fill out my Mahler recordings

Any suggestions on another complete cycle?


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## chesapeake bay

A good place to start is read Tony Duggan's mahler reviews, he's not completely up to date (2006) but he covers some iconic recordings, most of which, really are worth listening to. http://www.musicweb-international.com/Mahler/index.html


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## Johnnie Burgess

chesapeake bay said:


> A good place to start is read Tony Duggan's mahler reviews, he's not completely up to date (2006) but he covers some iconic recordings, most of which, really are worth listening to. http://www.musicweb-international.com/Mahler/index.html


He was very high regarded as a Mahler recording expert.


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## LarryShone

I need to discover more Mahler. The only disk I have is the 5th which of course is famous for the Adagio movement, but on a whole it is powerful music and I need to listen to others. Trouble is I don't like vocal music and many of his symphonies feature a vocal part akin to operatic singing. So what I need is a breakdown of his purely instrumental symphonies. And of course his other output.


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## Johnnie Burgess

LarryShone said:


> I need to discover more Mahler. The only disk I have is the 5th which of course is famous for the Adagio movement, but on a whole it is powerful music and I need to listen to others. Trouble is I don't like vocal music and many of his symphonies feature a vocal part akin to operatic singing. So what I need is a breakdown of his pyrely instrumental symphonies. And of course his other output.


And since you are in Europe you should check out Deezer music. They have a lot of classical music on their streaming service.


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## LarryShone

Johnnie Burgess said:


> And since you are in Europe you should check out Deezer music. They have a lot of classical music on their streaming service.


As does Spotify I believe.


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## Johnnie Burgess

LarryShone said:


> As does Spotify I believe.


I had deezer for awhile. In the US you have to have cricket cell phone to be able to listen to deezer. In some areas deezer had a better selection of classical.


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## LarryShone

Johnnie Burgess said:


> I had deezer for awhile. In the US you have to have cricket cell phone to be able to listen to deezer. In some areas deezer had a better selection of classical.


Cricket???.....


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## Johnnie Burgess

It is a budget cell phone company. It has no contract and no credit check. They were bought out by AT&T. But you can only get deezer in the US is by having them as your cell phone service.


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## Merl

LarryShone said:


> Trouble is I don't like vocal music and many of his symphonies feature a vocal part akin to operatic singing. So what I need is a breakdown of his purely instrumental symphonies. And of course his other output.


Whilst I like some vocal music I'm of a similar mind in Mahler. I much prefer Mahler sans vocal parts. Saying that I do enjoy his 3rd and 4th much more now but the 8th is still a bridge I struggle to cross.


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## SixFootScowl

Merl said:


> Whilst I like some vocal music I'm of a similar mind in Mahler. I much prefer Mahler sans vocal parts. Saying that I do enjoy his 3rd and 4th much more now but the 8th is still a bridge I struggle to cross.


I am big on vocal music but for Mahler I have been preferring the instrumental works, though I do like the 8th a lot, but I may not listen to it as much as the instrumental symphonies.


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## Johnnie Burgess

Florestan said:


> I am big on vocal music but for Mahler I have been preferring the instrumental works, though I do like the 8th a lot, but I may not listen to it as much as the instrumental symphonies.


I listened to Mahler # 8 with Rafael Kubelik, Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra and thought it was pretty good.


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## Pugg

Florestan said:


> I am big on vocal music but for Mahler I have been preferring the instrumental works, though I do like the 8th a lot, but I may not listen to it as much as the instrumental symphonies.


Every review says Solti is a must have, so do I.
The organ on the end, ....................you feel it in your tummy.


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## LarryShone

So basically, how many of his symphonies are instrumental?


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## SixFootScowl

LarryShone said:


> So basically, how many of his symphonies are instrumental?


Symphonies 1, 5, 6, 7, and 9 do not have vocals. #8 has the most vocals of the other four. #10 does not have vocals but is unfinished.


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## LarryShone

Florestan said:


> Symphonies 1, 5, 6, 7, and 9 do not have vocals. #8 has the most vocals of the other four. #10 does not have vocals but is unfinished.


Thank you!.....


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## Mahlerian

Florestan said:


> Symphonies 1, 5, 6, 7, and 9 do not have vocals. #8 has the most vocals of the other four. #10 does not have vocals but is unfinished.


10 wasn't unfinished, except in the orchestration. In every other respect, it is exactly as it would have been had Mahler lived another year to complete it; Mahler didn't _start_ orchestrating a work until he had completely finished the short score.


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## LarryShone

So its not unfinished. Rather it (was?) unpublished.


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## SixFootScowl

Mahlerian said:


> 10 wasn't unfinished, except in the orchestration. In every other respect, it is exactly as it would have been had Mahler lived another year to complete it; Mahler didn't _start_ orchestrating a work until he had completely finished the short score.


As I am not knowledgeable regarding music, it is hard for me to understand. So the basic framework was there but it is likely that the orchestration could have been somewhat different than what is presented in the "performing editions"? But i guess we are much closer to final with Mahler's 10th than we are for Beethoven's 10th eh?


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## Mahlerian

Florestan said:


> As I am not knowledgeable regarding music, it is hard for me to understand. So the basic framework was there but it is likely that the orchestration could have been somewhat different than what is presented in the "performing editions"? But i guess we are much closer to final with Mahler's 10th than we are for Beethoven's 10th eh?


Beethoven's 10th merely exists in the form of a few unelaborated sketches which may or may not have been intended for a symphonic project.

Bruckner's 9th consists of three fully completed movements and a fourth movement that is mostly completed but parts of which were not composed at all, including the coda.

Mahler's 10th is a complete draft short score, with occasional indications of orchestration and a few blank spots where counterpoint would have been elaborated later, plus a complete orchestral draft of the first movement and a partial orchestral draft of the second and third movements.


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## Merl

Mahlerian said:


> Beethoven's 10th merely exists in the form of a few unelaborated sketches which may or may not have been intended for a symphonic project.
> 
> Bruckner's 9th consists of three fully completed movements and a fourth movement that is mostly completed but parts of which were not composed at all, including the coda.
> 
> Mahler's 10th is a complete draft short score, with occasional indications of orchestration and a few blank spots where counterpoint would have been elaborated later, plus a complete orchestral draft of the first movement and a partial orchestral draft of the second and third movements.


That's the sort of info that made me want to join this site. Easy to understand and jargonless.


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## LarryShone

Florestan said:


> As I am not knowledgeable regarding music, it is hard for me to understand. So the basic framework was there but it is likely that the orchestration could have been somewhat different than what is presented in the "performing editions"? But i guess we are much closer to final with Mahler's 10th than we are for Beethoven's 10th eh?


The case of Beethoven's 10, is that similar to Schumann's Introduction and Allegro appassionata, ops 92 and 134?


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## Merl

After Beethoven died in 1827 only the 1st movement had been started. Barry Cooper apparently studied about 8000 manuscripts and concluded that 50 contained sketched out versions for the symphony's first movement (with other possible later movement ideas). Many argue that he was basically taking notes from an essay and creating a book as the pieces were all badly fragmented. As Beethoven didn't leave many indications of where these parts should go Cooper just filled in the blank spaces with what he 'thought' Beethoven would have done. Tbf to Cooper, of the 531 bars of the movement, at least 300 are taken directly from Beethoven's manuscripts (however Beethoven would have have altered these hugely or scrapped them completely, no doubt). It's supposedly just an "impression" of how the first movement of Symphony 10 "might" have sounded. It's a pleasant enough piece but it's more like Mendelssohn than Beethoven and I dont even class it as a Beethoven composition, tbh. To me it's like taking a Frank Zappa guitar solo and building a song around that and tapes of him tuning his guitar. Nice conjecture from Mr Cooper, though.


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## LarryShone

What about the Schumann pieces? The liner notes speculate that they could be embryonic piano concertos.


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## Merl

LarryShone said:


> What about the Schumann pieces? The liner notes speculate that they could be embryonic piano concertos.


I know very little about Schumann. I'll let someone else tell you about that.


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## SixFootScowl

Mahlerian said:


> Beethoven's 10th merely exists in the form of a few unelaborated sketches which may or may not have been intended for a symphonic project.
> 
> Bruckner's 9th consists of three fully completed movements and a fourth movement that is mostly completed but parts of which were not composed at all, including the coda.
> 
> Mahler's 10th is a complete draft short score, with occasional indications of orchestration and a few blank spots where counterpoint would have been elaborated later, plus a complete orchestral draft of the first movement and a partial orchestral draft of the second and third movements.


Thanks. Then I was right to avoid Beethoven's 10th recordings and right to buy the Mahler 10th (Rattle), and have been listening to it some more. Now I can fully appreciate it since it is mostly Mahler, and it is very good.

If/when I get further into Bruckner (I enjoyed Symphonies 2 and 4 the other day that I have in a cheap set), I will keep in mind that the 9th is mostly Bruckner too.


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## KenOC

Right to avoid Beethoven's 10th. Yes indeed. It's truly a crock.


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## Becca

Florestan said:


> I will keep in mind that the 9th is mostly Bruckner too.


I believe that there were only 67 bars of the last movement that had to be 'composed' for the Samale etc., completion


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