# French music late C19th & early C20th



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I'm just getting into some French composers who were around roughly at the turn of the Twentieth Century.

Guys like* Chausson* & *Franck* didn't live to see the new century (they died in the 1890's), while others like organist-composer *Widor* died in his nineties in 1937. It must be noted that Franck was nominally French, also having strong Belgian roots. But he made an incalculable contribution to French musical life, as a composer, organist and teacher. Then there were guys like *Duparc* who were also active earlier, but had an impact for decades (Duparc only composed a handful of songs that are still considered among the finest in the repertoire). &* Saint-Saens*, starting out as a firebrand, a friend of radicals like Liszt, but by his old age becoming a very conservative figure firmly in the establishment. *Guilmant *was another organist, Widor's main competitor, who represented the late Romantic style which was very much alive and well in 1900, despite those younger "upstarts"* Debussy *& *Ravel*. The latter was taught by* Faure*, again another composer who made a huge impact in Paris and beyond. Less well known now are ultra-nationalists *D'Indy* and *Schmitt*, though they were big in their own day. In the operatic realm, *Massenet* and *Gustave Charpentier* reigned supreme. In the world of ballet, it was *Messager* who was big.

I think there are many connections across the myriad of styles around that time and in that place (mainly Paris). For example, the mighty ocean is the focus of both Chausson's _Poème de l'amour et de la mer_ for mezzo soprano & orchestra and his friend Debussy's better known _La Mer_ (virtually a symphony). There are parallels between Duparc's songs and those by Debussy and Ravel. These are just two I can think of, doubtless there were many other correspondences.

There was an earlier thread on the "Impressionist movement" (whatever that was), but I thought it was too limited. It was also last year, so I'm interested in the newer members impressions (no pun intended) of this interesting time in musical history.

http://www.talkclassical.com/5361-impressionist-movement.html

I want to allow for a much broader discussion of French music of the late C19th and early C20th, not just about Debussy and Ravel, whom most of us are highly familiar with. Who are your favourite composers from this era and particular country? Which ones do you think made the more significant impacts? Are there any others whom I've missed out upon (my knowledge is not comprehensive, btw).


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## Sebastien Melmoth (Apr 14, 2010)

You're on the right track having mentioned some of the greats, but you forgot two of the greatest of that period: *Magnard* and *Vierne*.

Louis *Vierne* (especially) is one of the greatest of composers--equal at least to César *Franck* (whose art I adore).

Like Franck, Vierne wrote one work in just about every major genre, plus much excellent music for piano and organ.

Magnard (like Chausson) died abruptly but left us with a respectable body of work.


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2010)

And what about Albert Roussel? One of my favorite composers. His 3rd Symphony is superb, and his chamber music is really outstanding.


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## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

Andre said:


> Which ones do you think made the more significant impacts? Are there any others whom I've missed out upon (my knowledge is not comprehensive, btw).


Erik Satie.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

All of the above with the addition of Emmanuel Chabrier, another great figure who was deeply influential to many of the composers that followed (including many of the above.. Debussy?)


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I'm also a major Roussel fan,and I think his music is criminally neglected,except on recordings.
All four symphonies are outstanding,although the second is a hard nut to crack at first.But stick with it,and you'll find it very rewarding. I haven't heard it,but the recent Naxos recordings of the symphonies and other orchestral works with Stephane Deneve and the Royal Scotthish orchestra have been very enthusiatically received by the 
record reviewers,and I have the excellent two disc RCA set of the four symphonies with Marek Janowski and the French Radio orchestra, which is probably not available any more.
Other conductors who have made excellent recordings of Roussel's orchestral works include 
Jean Martinon,who was a pupil of the composer, Charles,Munch,Ernest Ansermet, Charles Dutoit, Neeme Jarvi
and Yan Pascal Tortelier.
The ballet scores The Spider's Feast,which is about a predatory spider in a garden which prays on the insects,and Bacchus &Ariane ,based on Greek mythology are highly inventive and colorful.
The opera Padmavati,on EMI with Marilyn Horne,Nicolai Gedda and Jose Van Dam is the greatest opera you've never hgeard! It takes place in medieval India during the Moghul conquest and is a fascinating and unique opera,like nothing else you've ever heard.
I've never been able to understand the continued neglect of this outstanding French composer.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

One of my favorites... beyond the obvious names already cited... is *Charles Koechlin*. I find his chamber music (for flute, clarinet, saxophone, etc...) as well as his work for piano and the orchestral songs to be exquisite... and quite suspect that he would be far more recognized if not for Ravel and Debussy. *Charles Tournemire* is also interesting. I quite like his _Douze Preludes-Poemes_ and his organ works are worth a listen. Speaking of organ music... beside the obvious (Messiaen) check out *Marcel Dupré*. I also found the orchestral works of *Jean Roger-Ducasse* quite lovely. And then there's *Poulenc*! Look into the _Gloria_ and _Stabat Mater_, the piano works, the chamber music... all very sophisticated French Modernism... ala Matisse.


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## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

Milhaud is another one. And Honegger. But Milhaud really is fantastic - having been so prolific (most of the French composers wrote a very minimal amount of works) and writing works of such _quality_ as well.

And as Andre mentioned, there was a lot of _Belgian_ influence on French music too. For solo violin, there are the sonatas of *Eugene Ysaye*, in its medium second, probably, only to Bach. The famous violinist *Henri Vieuxtemps* too was from Belgium, being an important composer in his own right and an essential exponent of the French music of his time. And the first (chronologically) of the mentioned triumvirate would be *Charles de Beriot*, who many violin students would be familiar with, as his influence extended most to the teaching department (including the rearing of many French/Belgian violinists of the time, such as Vieuxtemps).

Belgium's greatest loss came with the death of *Guillaume Lekeu* at age 24. His _Violin Sonata_, though less famous than those of Debussy and _Ravel, was certainly an important part of the Violin Sonata tradition that the Belgian/French had established, first with Franck, and then with Faure and the aforementioned, and ending with Poulenc.

So we must not forget the Belgians when we discuss French music of the time period. _


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Interesting thread. Some names splashed around, which are worthy of exploration. Roussel is one. Many others (apart from the big names) I don't know.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Well, I did miss out on many composers, but the purpose of my original post was to just get things going. I have read about & seen recordings of music by Roussel, Magnard, Vierne & Dupre, but not heard much of their music. Ditto Chabrier & Satie (except for their greatest hits). It would be interesting to get into some of these, particularly the organ repertoire.

I agree that there have been many cross-currents between the Benelux countries (Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg) and France, probably for centuries. I didn't even know that Vieuxtemps was originally Belgian. I recently heard one of his violin concertos on radio, and it reminded me a bit of Saint-Saens - but perhaps not as flashy?

I wasn't really thinking of _Les Six_, because they came during the 1920's, which was more the second quarter of the C20th. But if people want to discuss them here, then by all means do. In my opinion, it was the 1910's - with works like Stravinsky's _Rite of Spring_, Ravel's _Daphnis et Chloe_ and Debussy's _Jeux_, to name three ballets - that brought this era to an end, coming before the arrival of neo-classicism. From the 1920's on, there was much more experimentation and a strong departure from previous styles - not only _Les Six_, but also composers like Varese and later Messiaen and Dutilleux. Any notions of unity of styles emerging was abolished, there was more and more plurality, not least because of composers of various nationalities coming to the capital - not only Stravinsky, but also Americans like Gershwin, Antheil and Carter later. Jazz was also a strong element that emerged after the First World War.

But I'm not trying to argue that the pre-WWI generation were shut off or sealed from outside trends. There was still much plurality, and not only between the older composers and the younger ones. Guys like Franck and Chausson had brought Wagnerian influences into France, even though they were frowned upon after the country's defeat in the Franco-Prussian War of about 1870. The resentment took a long time to settle. But by the time Wagnerianism was more accepted in France, during the 1890's, its influence had been rejected by guys like Debussy with his _Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun_. In the world of opera, Gustave Charpentier was clearly influenced by the Italian verismo composers in his _Louise._ There were many influences coming into France, even before the 1910's and '20's.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

I agree that Belgium and France experienced a lot of 'hybridisation', but I definitely wouldn't include The Netherlands in that. Dutch composers tend to lean more towards the German tradition and many of them you could consider 'wagnerites'.

No idea about Luxemburg though?


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## Sebastien Melmoth (Apr 14, 2010)

Argus said:


> _Erik Satie._


Actually Debussy was influenced early on by Satie.



> _No idea about Luxemburg?_


How 'bout Liechtenstein? Josef Rheinberger.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I was only "guessing" about Luxembourg - but surely the cultures of all three Benelux countries have been tied in with France (as well as Germany, as suggested). Their borders kept changing, and many "invasions" have occured, both militarily and artistically (just look at the number of Belgian jazz artists making Paris their home over the years - from Django Reinhardt to Barney Wilen and Toots Thielemans)...


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

I don't deny that, but the Dutch people are practically German people and culturally I think there is more connection there than there is to Belgium.


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## Ian Elliott (Nov 15, 2010)

I'm very fond of Albert Roussel, whose earliest works like Le Marchand du Sable qui passe are impressionistic. His great transitional work, Padmavati, is an amazing listening experience, particularly the choral pieces. The Englishman Frederick Delius must be included in any discussion of Impressionism; The Walk to the Paradise Garden and A Song of Summer are two of his mature works. Germaine Tailleferre, though included in Les Six, was stylistically a follower of Ravel, and her string quartet and the brief Images for orchestra are interesting. Janacek's suite from his opera The Cunning Little Vixen has more whole-tone phrases and chords than most of Debussy.


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## jurianbai (Nov 23, 2008)

certainly to add in Guy Joseph Ropartz, try his string quartets. and also Jacques Pierre Joseph Rode (16 February 1774 – 25 November 1830), going to get his violin concerto someday.


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## Sebastien Melmoth (Apr 14, 2010)

Pray consider Théodore Dubois' Piano-Wind-String Quintet:
http://www.amazon.com/Théodore-Dubo...=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1292675110&sr=1-9


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## Sebastien Melmoth (Apr 14, 2010)

Roussel wrote a fascinating work: his 1925 *Sérénade* for flute, harp and string trio (Op. 30).

http://www.amazon.com/20th-Century-French-Chamber-Music/dp/B003F1WGYE/ref=cm_cr-mr-title


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

There are brilliant French Flute Solos from that time period, because the French Flute School was just beginning to lift off. Some examples of composers: Taffanel, Gaubert (both were Flute professors of Paris Conservatoire), Fauré, Chaminade, Hüe, Debussy. Ibert came later.


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