# The Phantom of the Opera vs La Boheme



## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

Which one do you like better?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

I've seen some strange polls but this one beats them all.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Isn't one a musical and the other a real opera?

But I can't comment beyond that because I have neither seen nor heard either of them.

But I will vote for Boheme as it is an opera.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

If O.P explained better perhaps we could discus this but now this is just weird.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

The one that refers to Meyerbeer (_Le prophète_), Halévy (_La juive_), Gounod (_Faust_, _Roméo_), Reyer (and his beautiful overture to _Sigurd_), Saint-Saëns, Massenet (_Roi de Lahore_), Guiraud, Delibes, Verdi (_Vêpres siciliennes_) and Donizetti (_Lucrèce Borgia_), with cameos by Faure and Krauss.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I went to see the phantom of the Opera and was bored stiff after about 10 minutes. Absolutely awful!


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

I was just playin' with you all. LOL. I'd actually take POTO over La Boheme any day, even though I am a massive opera buff.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

gellio said:


> I was just playin' with you all. LOL. I'd actually take POTO over La Boheme any day, even though I am a massive opera buff.


I assume you have very good reasons for this. Maybe I should check out the synopses of each and then re-vote.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Pugg said:


> I've seen some strange polls but this one beats them all.


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

gellio said:


> I was just playin' with you all. LOL. I'd actually take POTO over La Boheme any day, even though I am a massive opera buff.


Thank goodness! :lol:


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Well strange as this poll (without a voting feature) is, stranger yet is I just visited my local library bookstore and there was a copy of La Boheme in great condition sitting their waiting for me for a dollar! So I am ripping it now. It is not an opera I would have gone out of my way for, and in some ways is similar to La Traviata. But I will give it a listen. Worst case I can get several dollars for it at Dearborn Music. It looks like a good one too: Karajan with Freni and Pavarotti.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

gellio said:


> I was just playin' with you all. LOL. I'd actually take POTO over La Boheme any day, even though I am a massive opera buff.


You were just playing with us all but you still think Phantom is better than Boheme?


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

It is apple comparing orange. Two different things, different enjoyment dimensions.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

_Boheme_ is an operatic masterpiece by Puccini and _Phantom_ is... Well, it's Andrew LLoyd Webber, which means that Puccini wrote the best part of it.


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

Andrew Lloyd Weber is certainly one of the best composer of our times. His works cannot simply be dismissed. Could these works become classics of the future?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

pcnog11 said:


> Andrew Lloyd Weber is certainly one of the best composer of our times. His works cannot simply be dismissed. Could these works become classics of the future?


J.C.Superstar dates from 1970 so who knows, only time will tell.


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> _Boheme_ is an operatic masterpiece by Puccini and _Phantom_ is... Well, it's Andrew LLoyd Webber, which means that Puccini wrote the best part of it.


Wow you nailed this:


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

howlingfantods said:


> You were just playing with us all but you still think Phantom is better than Boheme?


The game continues, LOL. I just wanted to see the reactions I would get.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> _Boheme_ is an operatic masterpiece by Puccini and _Phantom_ is... Well, it's Andrew LLoyd Webber, which means that Puccini wrote the best part of it.


Come on, Puccini lifted passages from POTO for his operas. J/K. I love POTO, and always will. It was the first piece, of any type of musical theater, I have ever heard. That being said, 10 years later, when I started getting into opera and was listening to _The Girl of the Golden West_ I realized I had heard a melody before. It drove me crazy, then I realized it was almost note-for-note The Music of the Night from POTO. Beautiful melody, but it's a shame ALW had to lift it. Also, _Les Miserables_ has a moment in it that sounds almost identical to a moment in Butterfly. When Valjean is caring the injured Marius, it sounds to be almost identical to the humming chorus in Butterfly.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

gellio said:


> Come on, Puccini lifted passages from POTO for his operas. J/K. I love POTO, and always will. It was the first piece, of any type of musical theater, I have ever heard. That being said, 10 years later, when I started getting into opera and was listening to _The Girl of the Golden West_ I realized I had heard a melody before. It drove me crazy, then I realized it was almost note-for-note The Music of the Night from POTO. Beautiful melody, but it's a shame ALW had to lift it. Also, _Les Miserables_ has a moment in it that sounds almost identical to a moment in Butterfly. When Valjean is caring the injured Marius, it sounds to be almost identical to the humming chorus in Butterfly.


So the whole point from this topic is your dedicated to POTO


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

gellio said:


> Come on, Puccini lifted passages from POTO for his operas. J/K. I love POTO, and always will. It was the first piece, of any type of musical theater, I have ever heard. That being said, 10 years later, when I started getting into opera and was listening to _The Girl of the Golden West_ I realized I had heard a melody before. It drove me crazy, then I realized it was almost note-for-note The Music of the Night from POTO. Beautiful melody, but it's a shame ALW had to lift it. Also, _Les Miserables_ has a moment in it that sounds almost identical to a moment in Butterfly. When Valjean is caring the injured Marius, it sounds to be almost identical to the humming chorus in Butterfly.


Appearently Andrew Lloyd Webber have avoided taking the best parts in Puccini's operas. My favourite part of La Boheme and one of my favourite part of any opera is when Mimi meets Marcello in the beginning of act three and that is enough to vote for La Boheme.


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

SimonTemplar said:


> The one that refers to Meyerbeer (_Le prophète_), Halévy (_La juive_), Gounod (_Faust_, _Roméo_), Reyer (and his beautiful overture to _Sigurd_), Saint-Saëns, Massenet (_Roi de Lahore_), Guiraud, Delibes, Verdi (_Vêpres siciliennes_) and Donizetti (_Lucrèce Borgia_), with cameos by Faure and Krauss.


IS this allegedly or do I need to actually read the 'libretto', or the Novel to pick up the references, unless The Palais Garnier is the link?

If it is, do I earn an extra point by saying I have attended a Puccini Opera there?

PS I don't know what I was thinking becasue I've not liked any of his stuff, but I once bought 4 tickets to Phantom of the Opera before it opened. Prior to the night in question I heard the music and then we gave the tickets to our parents as a thank you wedding present!

(Shameful really)


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> _Boheme_ is an operatic masterpiece by Puccini and _Phantom_ is... Well, it's Andrew LLoyd Webber, which means that ALLEGEDLY Puccini wrote the best part of it.


Woodduck go back and alter your post, I'll delete this and you might just get away with it!


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## ahinton (Nov 8, 2016)

Where's the possible contest? _La Bohème_ is an opera written by a distinguished stage composer whereas _POTO_ is, at best (there's a best?) exactly what its title states it to be, namely a mere _phantom_ of the opera written by one who has not distinguished himself as any kind of composer, let alone a stage one!

Stravinsky admitted to being a musical magpie but at least he was a composer (even though most of his works do little for me), whereas ALW is coy about admitting to any such thing while he nevertheless begs, borrows and steals shamelessly although, given that Puccini only went out of copyright at the end of 1994, it might be a wonder that his Estate never appears to have contemplated intellectual property rights litigation against him.


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## ahinton (Nov 8, 2016)

pcnog11 said:


> Andrew Lloyd Weber


Andrea Gabrieli was a composer (albeit not of stage works), George Lloyd was a composer (whose output included stage works) and Carl Maria von Weber was a composer widely admired for his stage works, but I must admit to never having heard of "Andrew Lloyd Weber", so I can only assume that he was just a phantom and certainly not a superstar!


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

I have no problem saying that I love them both.


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## Scopitone (Nov 22, 2015)

If you think ALW borrowed from Puccini, wait until you hear RENT.


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## stejo (Dec 8, 2016)

I saw Phantom at the opera live in Stockholm last Thursday at a concert hall called " Cirkus", I must say I was disappointed, especially with the sound, problem to hear the singer... And the main attraction Peter Jöback was sick 
So
Me and my wife saw it again saturday night at Apple TV, this monster production from the 25th years anniversaty at Royal Albert hall and we loved it! What a marvellous spectacle with a wonderful music !!! 
Isn't it already classic ?


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

ahinton said:


> Stravinsky admitted to being a musical magpie but at least he was a composer (even though most of his works do little for me), whereas ALW is coy about admitting to any such thing while he nevertheless begs, borrows and steals shamelessly although, given that Puccini only went out of copyright at the end of 1994, it might be a wonder that his Estate never appears to have contemplated intellectual property rights litigation against him.


The Puccini Estate did bring an IP suit against Lloyd Webber in the mid 90s. It was settled out of court.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

As for _The Phantom of the Opera_ versus _La bohème_, I am undecided. I don't really like either of them.

I like _Evita_ more than any Puccini opera, maybe _Jesus Christ Superstar_, too. But beyond that, nothing else I've heard by him has clicked.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

mountmccabe said:


> As for _The Phantom of the Opera_ versus _La bohème_, I am undecided. I don't really like either of them.
> 
> I like _Evita_ more than any Puccini opera, maybe _Jesus Christ Superstar_, too. But beyond that, nothing else I've heard by him has clicked.


Surely you would like Tosca?


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

I have to go for La Boheme but must admit I have never heard the other one, Ureka an Idea for a new thread.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Belowpar said:


> Woodduck go back and alter your post, I'll delete this and you might just get away with it!


I've already gotten away with it. So did Webber, but only because Puccini is dead and can't sue.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Florestan said:


> Surely you would like Tosca?


Not particularly, no. And I like Evita a lot, so.

I forgot about _Suor Angelica_. I think I like that one more than _Jesus Christ Superstar_.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Dan Ante said:


> I have to go for La Boheme but must admit I have never heard the other one, Ureka an Idea for a new thread.


Thanks goodness for small mercies .


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I never liked the recent trend of "sophisticated" Broadway musicals, especially "The Phantom of the Opera" which I find sappy and unmemorable musically.

There is no comparison here as far as I'm concerned. La Boheme is much the superior work, both musically and as a story.


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## Scopitone (Nov 22, 2015)

hpowders said:


> I never liked the recent trend of "sophisticated" Broadway musicals, especially "The Phantom of the Opera" which I find sappy and unmemorable musically.
> 
> There is no comparison here as far as I'm concerned. La Boheme is much the superior work, both musically and as a story.


Recent? I think this year might be the show's 30th anniversary! :lol:


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

Belowpar said:


> IS this allegedly or do I need to actually read the 'libretto', or the Novel to pick up the references, unless The Palais Garnier is the link?
> 
> If it is, do I earn an extra point by saying I have attended a Puccini Opera there?
> 
> ...


Gaston Leroux's novel. What he wrote when he wasn't bumping people off in hermetically sealed yellow rooms.


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## Scopitone (Nov 22, 2015)

I will say this: years of familiarity with the ALW play really helped me to follow and appreciate the 1925 Lon Chaney film. It's superb, but I don't have a lot of experience with looonnnnngggggg silent films in one sitting.


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## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

Is the musical Phantom of the opera like that famous kitsch movie Phantom of the opera? The one with those kitsch costumes and the kitsch music and the 100.000 kitsch candles?

In that case I strongly prefer La Boheme (or pretty much every other piece of music).


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

interestedin said:


> Is the musical Phantom of the opera like that famous kitsch movie Phantom of the opera? The one with those kitsch costumes and the kitsch music and the 100.000 kitsch candles?
> 
> In that case I strongly prefer La Boheme (or pretty much every other piece of music).


I think it's much better than the movie you mention. Of course most of the other forum members will probably call the musical equally kitsch. lol


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Scopitone said:


> Recent? I think this year might be the show's 30th anniversary! :lol:


Yes. I know. I mean the trend of musicals with hard to sing songs, with hard to understand lyrics-a trial for the audience, like Cats-imagine lyrics by TS Eliot-for a general audience-I saw Cats and I wanted my money back-the most boring, deadly show I ever saw-with only one good song-Memory-what a rip-off!


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

hpowders said:


> Yes. I know. I mean the trend of musicals with hard to sing songs, with hard to understand lyrics-a trial for the audience, like Cats-imagine lyrics by TS Eliot-for a general audience-I saw Cats and I wanted my money back-the most boring, deadly show I ever saw-with only one good song-Memories.


I agree. I much prefer the vintage musicals--Rodgers and Hammerstein, Bernstein, Kern...funny, down-to-earth and entertaining!

As for this poll, La Boheme definitely gets my vote. Great music and plot.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Yes. I know. I mean the trend of musicals with hard to sing songs, with hard to understand lyrics-a trial for the audience, like Cats-imagine lyrics by TS Eliot-for a general audience-I saw Cats and I wanted my money back-the most boring, deadly show I ever saw-with only one good song-Memory-what a rip-off!


Now you've done it, I've gotta put on "Mr. Mistoffelees."

This also may be the first time I've heard _Cats_ referred to as sophisticated.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

hpowders said:


> Yes. I know. I mean the trend of musicals with hard to sing songs, with hard to understand lyrics-a trial for the audience, like Cats-imagine lyrics by TS Eliot-for a general audience-I saw Cats and I wanted my money back-the most boring, deadly show I ever saw-with only one good song-Memory-what a rip-off!


I think Andrew Lloyd Webber have written some really beautiful music. But I prefer Assasinio nella catedrale by Pizetti over Cats.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

Scopitone said:


> I will say this: years of familiarity with the ALW play really helped me to follow and appreciate the 1925 Lon Chaney film. It's superb, but I don't have a lot of experience with looonnnnngggggg silent films in one sitting.


You're Intolerant?


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

Bettina said:


> I agree. I much prefer the vintage musicals--Rodgers and Hammerstein, Bernstein, Kern...funny, down-to-earth and entertaining!
> 
> As for this poll, La Boheme definitely gets my vote. Great music and plot.


What do you think of Sondheim?


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

gellio said:


> I was just playin' with you all. LOL. I'd actually take POTO over La Boheme any day, even though I am a massive opera buff.


Well that says something interesting about you and your opera (and non opera) tastes. Enjoy!


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

SimonTemplar said:


> What do you think of Sondheim?


I like Sondheim a lot, both as a composer and as a lyricist. I enjoy the dark humor, the satirical elements, in his works such as Into the Woods and A Little Night Music.


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

I like ALW and his works. None of us can see how these works will evolved through time. So were those people in Mozart's day that cannot predict how popular and accepted Mozart's operas are in the 21st century. The only thing we can say is the popularity of ALW was support and enabled by a lot of marketing efforts which was not available in Mozart's days. POTO is now 30 years and it is still growing strong - personally, I have seen it 3 times. I do not think a musical can survive that long purely by just marketing effort. Credit needs to be given to the substance behind the work.


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

Bettina said:


> I like Sondheim a lot, both as a composer and as a lyricist. I enjoy the dark humor, the satirical elements, in his works such as Into the Woods and A Little Night Music.


I love Sonheim but see him as a one off interesting development. Someone who went off in directions that interested him and doesn't try to fit with his contemporaries. His 'plays' are more interesting than those of his mentor Hamerstein, but the songs are not to the same standards. Musically he's not a match for Rogers or Kern. Luckily I can enjoy them all.

I will be very sad when he passes. But with luck with have something new this summer.

http://www.playbill.com/article/new-sondheim-musical-the-music-was-gorgeous

And besides I followed him up the stairs at the penultimate night of Gypsy in London about 15 months ago. Not many of us have come that close to someone they revere.


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## Scopitone (Nov 22, 2015)

SimonTemplar said:


> You're Intolerant?


Haha, I haven't watched that one yet. But I have grown a lot more comfortable with silent films since I first watched the Phantom film. I had no trouble - to my surprise - in sitting through BIRTH OF A NATION's three hours. (Politics aside, it's a fantastic film.)


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

mountmccabe said:


> Now you've done it, I've gotta put on "Mr. Mistoffelees."
> 
> This also may be the first time I've heard _Cats_ referred to as sophisticated.


So the TS Eliot lyrics aren't sophisticated?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bettina said:


> I agree. I much prefer the vintage musicals--Rodgers and Hammerstein, Bernstein, Kern...funny, down-to-earth and entertaining!
> 
> As for this poll, La Boheme definitely gets my vote. Great music and plot.


I'm a sucker for the great musicals of the past-South Pacific, The King and I, Oklahoma, West Side Story, My Fair Lady, etc;

A different time. Great music, easy to understand plots; none of the Into the Woods "complexity".


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

hpowders said:


> I'm a sucker for the great musicals of the past-South Pacific, The King and I, Oklahoma, West Side Story, My Fair Lady, etc;
> 
> A different time. Great music, easy to understand plots; none of the Into the Woods "complexity".


I grew up on West Side Story. I'll always have a soft spot for this one


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Sonata said:


> I grew up on West Side Story. I'll always have a soft spot for this one


West Side Story is probably my favorite musical of all time. Hits my heart like no other.

Anyone who doubts that Leonard Bernstein was a great composer needs to become familiar with this magnificent score. A masterpiece!


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## Scopitone (Nov 22, 2015)

hpowders said:


> I'm a sucker for the great musicals of the past-South Pacific, The King and I, Oklahoma, West Side Story, My Fair Lady, etc;
> 
> A different time. Great music, easy to understand plots; none of the Into the Woods "complexity".


Yessssssss. And CAROUSEL and SHOW BOAT!



hpowders said:


> West Side Story is probably my favorite musical of all time. Hits my heart like no other.
> 
> Anyone who doubts that Leonard Bernstein was a great composer needs to become familiar with this magnificent score. A masterpiece!


The film has three long dance-only sequences. All different, and all spectacular.

A good argument could be made that musically and dramatically, WSS is the pinnacle of American musical theater. (sorry, Phantom)


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

hpowders said:


> So the TS Eliot lyrics aren't sophisticated?


It's not like _Cats_ is based on _The Waste Land_ (now that's a musical I want to see!); it's based on poems Eliot wrote for his godchildren. I haven't read _Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats_ and don't know the poems apart from the musical, but they do not strike me as that deep. Maybe there is more there than I'm seeing, but, again, I rarely hear poems written for children called too sophisticated, no matter who wrote them.

And I was talking about the musical _Cats_, the barely coherent, meandering comic musical based on these non-narrative poems written for children.


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

The only musical that I have seen live was in 1964, London. 
Anthony Newly and Anna Quayle starred in ‘Stop the world I want to get off’ 
I know I still have a Vinyl LP of the highlights somewhere, have to give it a spin.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The old musicals had great melodies. Then along came Sondheim. Clever fellow, but who sings his talkfests in the shower? And what are we supposed to sing now? _Hamilton?_


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

My favorite musical is *Show Boat*.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

I sing Sondheim ALL THE TIME.

I once bought a pair of tickets to see _Merrily We Roll Along_ as a gift; it was meant to be a surprise. I was just getting to know Sondheim, and didn't know this show (but it's not like we were going to get another chance to see it any time soon). I purchased the recording so I could get to know the show, and COULD. NOT. STOP. SINGING. I was convinced that my wife was going to catch me singing, wonder why I was listening to the show, and know something was up. I had to stop listening to the show.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

I am also a little surprised that _Hamilton_ has the dedicated following it does, but it is a great show, it does have some great music, but we might also might as well be attacking the Ring for not having the patter of Rossini, or the big arias of Puccini. Different works work differently. As it has always been, so it will ever be.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

mountmccabe said:


> I am also a little surprised that _Hamilton_ has the dedicated following it does, but it is a great show, it does have some great music, but we might also might as well be attacking the Ring for not having the patter of Rossini, or the big arias of Puccini. Different works work differently. As it has always been, so it will ever be.


Evidently you're right. Every time I hear some random shopper at Goodwill singing along with some (to my ear) tuneless number coming over the PA, I think "well, I guess the brain can adapt to just about anything."

I still don't think melodies are as good as they used to be, but it'll be interesting to see whether singers of the future regard the tunes of today as "standards."


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## Scopitone (Nov 22, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> The old musicals had great melodies. Then along came Sondheim. Clever fellow, but who sings his talkfests in the shower? And what are we supposed to sing now? _Hamilton?_


_Wicked_!

But even that one's almost 15 years ago.


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> "well, I guess the brain can adapt to just about anything."
> 
> I still don't think melodies are as good as they used to be, but it'll be interesting to see whether singers of the future regard the tunes of today as "standards."


Not wanting to start an argument but I do agree with you and it also applies to some of to days classical and Jazz


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Scopitone said:


> Yessssssss. And CAROUSEL and SHOW BOAT!
> 
> The film has three long dance-only sequences. All different, and all spectacular.
> 
> A good argument could be made that musically and dramatically, WSS is the pinnacle of American musical theater. (sorry, Phantom)


Don't be showboating around these parts.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

mountmccabe said:


> I sing Sondheim ALL THE TIME.
> 
> I once bought a pair of tickets to see _Merrily We Roll Along_ as a gift; it was meant to be a surprise. I was just getting to know Sondheim, and didn't know this show (but it's not like we were going to get another chance to see it any time soon). I purchased the recording so I could get to know the show, and COULD. NOT. STOP. SINGING. I was convinced that my wife was going to catch me singing, wonder why I was listening to the show, and know something was up. I had to stop listening to the show.


Like to hear that.....


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

To get another point of view, I'm tempted to start a thread entitled The Phantom of the Opera vs La Boheme, here

http://theatreboard.co.uk/board/3/musicals

PS Wooduck we will have to agree to disagree, I do sing the following to my self.

Children will Listen - wistful ballad
Broadway Baby - raunchy showstopper
I'm not getting married - G&S style patter song
Joanna - love song
and several other Sondheim originals that do work as stand alone entities.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

At times I am shocked by the disdain opera fanatics can have for musical theater (much the same can be said for many other styles of popular music). Every genre has casual fans, but they also all have obsessives who carefully listen to minute details on as many different recordings as they can get their hands on. Musical theater, in particular, is such a close match to opera, also being extended, staged, music dramas (albeit with a different focus).

But then I remember the contempt opera fans can have for other opera fans - for those that like different styles or approaches to opera than they do - and it makes more sense.


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## Scopitone (Nov 22, 2015)

mountmccabe said:


> But then I remember the contempt opera fans can have for other opera fans - for those that like different styles or approaches to opera than they do - and it makes more sense.


Wagner > Your Mom :lol:


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

I love Phantom of the Opera, and I am lukewarm to the one version of La Boheme I've heard. Besides the music, which is both wonderful and memorable to me, Phantom upped the ante on special effects and staging in a theater production.

It seems like opera and musical theater fans prioritize different things. I've never really pictured them as opposing forces, just different options.


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## Scopitone (Nov 22, 2015)

I am still a new enough opera fan that I am able to enjoy both opera and musical theater. :angel:


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Given that choice, I think I'd rather go down to my local supermarket and watch the chickens go around in the rotisserie.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

I love both musicals and opera. My focus is certainly opera (by a long shot) but I like a lot of different styles of music, a lot of different styles of theater. Opera has such a broad range that it seems silly to create an artificial division and dismiss different forms outright.

That doesn't mean I like every musical any more than it means I like every opera. I view the two pieces asked about by the OP quite similarly. For both I like some of the music, but I find the characters largely obnoxious and poorly drawn, and the story to be mostly objectionable. There are excerpts from each I enjoy, and I've seen full performances of each (on a TV screen), but neither is a priority to see live (though I may see _La boheme_ in June).

My general approach to musicals is similar to my general approach to opera; try to look at the whole work and see it is trying to accomplish, and how it uses its many different elements for that purpose. It's also fascinating to see how different people approach the same pieces (performers and crew).


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> _Boheme_ is an operatic masterpiece by Puccini and _Phantom_ is... Well, it's Andrew LLoyd Webber, which means that Puccini wrote the best part of it.


And some of the not so great part contains "Echoes" of Pink Floyd. (from Meddle, 1971)


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

EdwardBast said:


> And some of the not so great part contains "Echoes" of Pink Floyd. (from Meddle, 1971)


Thank you, professor. I am happy to take your word for it.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Scopitone said:


> I am still a new enough opera fan that I am able to enjoy both opera and musical theater. :angel:


Nothing wrong with that, as long as you are enjoying yourself.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

mountmccabe said:


> Now you've done it, I've gotta put on "Mr. Mistoffelees."
> 
> This also may be the first time I've heard _Cats_ referred to as sophisticated.


I saw "Cats" on Broadway twice. Once shortly after it opened - didn't like it - and several years later with several children in tow - much more enjoyable was watched from their perspective.

I do have a soft spot for the music though - it's the only ALW cast album I've ever owned.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

mountmccabe said:


> I sing Sondheim ALL THE TIME.
> 
> I once bought a pair of tickets to see _Merrily We Roll Along_ as a gift; it was meant to be a surprise. I was just getting to know Sondheim, and didn't know this show (but it's not like we were going to get another chance to see it any time soon). I purchased the recording so I could get to know the show, and COULD. NOT. STOP. SINGING. I was convinced that my wife was going to catch me singing, wonder why I was listening to the show, and know something was up. I had to stop listening to the show.


I'm a big Sondheim fan. I think I've seen "Sweeney Todd" more than any other musical. I saw the legendary production of "Follies" on Broadway, along with several revivals. I saw the not so legendary (or legendary flop) original Broadway production of "Merrily" and a far superior London production several years ago. Plus most of the others (not "Assassins," or his most recent show which went through three titles and more than three productions). I'm excited to see he'll have a new show next year based on two Luis Bunuel films, "The Exterminating Angel" and "The Discrete Charm of the Bourgeoise."

Back to the OP (sort of), if I had to choose between "La Boheme" and "Sweeney Todd" I'd have difficulty.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Belowpar said:


> I love Sonheim but see him as a one off interesting development. Someone who went off in directions that interested him and doesn't try to fit with his contemporaries. His 'plays' are more interesting than those of his mentor Hamerstein, but the songs are not to the same standards. Musically he's not a match for Rogers or Kern. Luckily I can enjoy them all.
> 
> I will be very sad when he passes. But with luck with have something new this summer.
> 
> ...


I ran into him in a restaurant about 40 years ago! I went over to his table and told him how much I enjoyed his work. I had more chutzpah then.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

hpowders said:


> West Side Story is probably my favorite musical of all time. Hits my heart like no other.
> 
> Anyone who doubts that Leonard Bernstein was a great composer needs to become familiar with this magnificent score. A masterpiece!


"Candide" is equally good (and completely different although "One Hand, One Heart" began life in the earlier show.)


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Belowpar said:


> To get another point of view, I'm tempted to start a thread entitled The Phantom of the Opera vs La Boheme, here
> 
> http://theatreboard.co.uk/board/3/musicals
> 
> ...


At this point I doubt anyone is sung more often by the current generation of "standards" singers in NYC than Sondheim.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

jegreenwood said:


> I ran into him in a restaurant about 40 years ago! I went over to his table and told him how much I enjoyed his work. I had more chutzpah then.


I like someone who know the facts.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

mountmccabe said:


> At times I am shocked by the disdain opera fanatics can have for musical theater (much the same can be said for many other styles of popular music). Every genre has casual fans, but they also all have obsessives who carefully listen to minute details on as many different recordings as they can get their hands on. Musical theater, in particular, is such a close match to opera, also being extended, staged, music dramas (albeit with a different focus).
> 
> But then I remember the contempt opera fans can have for other opera fans - for those that like different styles or approaches to opera than they do - and it makes more sense.


I am too. Musical theater, in a way, got me into opera. I love Phantom, Les Miz, Sweeney Todd, Ragtime - the big sung through musicals. They can be so entertaining. Of course, I love rock n roll, too. Even pop music (sometimes).

I started opera with _La Traviata, which I loved from the beginning and still do. I had the Sutherland and Pavarotti recording, so naturally for my next work, I looked for their names on the box. That led me to Turandot, which I love to this day as well, the Butterfly and Boheme. With those two, I haven't listened to them in years, although I did see Butterfly a few years go. Maybe it's time for a revisit of them._


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

gellio said:


> I am too. Musical theater, in a way, got me into opera. I love Phantom, Les Miz, Sweeney Todd, Ragtime - the big sung through musicals. They can be so entertaining. Of course, I love rock n roll, too. Even pop music (sometimes).
> 
> I started opera with _La Traviata, which I loved from the beginning and still do. I had the Sutherland and Pavarotti recording, so naturally for my next work, I looked for their names on the box. That led me to Turandot, which I love to this day as well, the Butterfly and Boheme. With those two, I haven't listened to them in years, although I did see Butterfly a few years go. Maybe it's time for a revisit of them._


_

Traviata was my first Verdi opera upon recommendation from forum members here. To be honest, judging by that first Verdi opera, I did not expect that he would become my favorite opera composer (and top ten classical composer to boot). I didn't DISlike it per se, it just didn't floor me like he would come to do later. To be fair though I picked the album with the prettiest album art and didn't necessarily check sound clips or read reviews. My next Verdi opera was Aida.....and once I followed that with Rigoletto! I was hooked. I'm still not as excited about Traviata as his others, but I do have Angela Gheorgieau's DVD recording in my library pile, and I am looking forward to it._


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Sonata said:


> Traviata was my first Verdi opera upon recommendation from forum members here. To be honest, judging by that first Verdi opera, I did not expect that he would become my favorite opera composer (and top ten classical composer to boot). I didn't DISlike it per se, it just didn't floor me like he would come to do later. To be fair though I picked the album with the prettiest album art and didn't necessarily check sound clips or read reviews. My next Verdi opera was Aida.....and once I followed that with Rigoletto! I was hooked. I'm still not as excited about Traviata as his others, but I do have Angela Gheorgieau's DVD recording in my library pile, and I am looking forward to it.


How strange things can work out, it is (together with) Don Carlo my all time favourite Verdi, if not just all time.


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

For those who like ALW, which musical is your favourite? I would bet a lot would pick POTO. Anyone want to do a poll on this topic?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

pcnog11 said:


> For those who like ALW, which musical is your favourite? I would bet a lot would pick POTO. Anyone want to do a poll on this topic?


Start one yourself


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

Sonata said:


> Traviata was my first Verdi opera upon recommendation from forum members here. To be honest, judging by that first Verdi opera, I did not expect that he would become my favorite opera composer (and top ten classical composer to boot). I didn't DISlike it per se, it just didn't floor me like he would come to do later. To be fair though I picked the album with the prettiest album art and didn't necessarily check sound clips or read reviews. My next Verdi opera was Aida.....and once I followed that with Rigoletto! I was hooked. I'm still not as excited about Traviata as his others, but I do have Angela Gheorgieau's DVD recording in my library pile, and I am looking forward to it.


I am revisiting Verdi. The four I mentioned in my previous post were the first operas I had ever heard. I then bought _Don Carlos_ and _Aida_, which I quite liked. But, soon after, I watched _Amadeus_ and Verdi and Puccini were quickly thrown to the curb in favor of Mozart. Then Callas came in. Of course, she did Verdi, but I focused on _Norma_, _Gioconda_ and her recital discs, and for better or worse ignored her Puccini or Verdi (except for those Verdi aria discs, which are amazing). Then Wagner, then the Russians, then Beethoven (who is my favorite composer). I haven't paid Verdi and Puccini attention in years (flipping between Mozart, Wagner and the Russians).

About 15 years ago, I did see _Falstaff_ at the SF Opera and thought it was the most dreadful and boring thing I had ever heard/seen. I did buy the Solti recording before seeing it, and pulled it out last night. Quite exciting. Either by preferences are changing, or the performance was dreadful.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Pugg said:


> How strange things can work out, it is (together with) Don Carlo my all time favourite Verdi, if not just all time.


Don Carlo is my favorite too!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Sonata said:


> Don Carlo is my favorite too!


Do you have a favourite recording?


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## lluissineu (Dec 27, 2016)

Curious: traviata and Don Carlo are my favourite of Verdi's óperas, as well. And Verdi's my Number one opera composer.

I've got a pair of recordings, but I usually end up with Cotrubas/domingo/kleiber in Traviata and in don Carlo:









Lately I've been watching:
:






. I read negative reviews about it, but I find it very interesting.

About The Thread question, I like the phantom, and, of course, la bohème (despite The fact that I prefer Verdi to Puccini).


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## lluissineu (Dec 27, 2016)

Just want to add that I usually can't stand Caballé's voice and Domingo has never been my cup of tea (but I like The recordings I previously posted).

Perhaps it Is because in Traviata I like The roll of violeta and germont father and in Don Carlo I'm much more interested in Filippo and The inquisitor (apart from Rodrigo and Eboli) than in the love affair of Don Carlo and Elisabetha.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

pcnog11 said:


> For those who like ALW, which musical is your favourite? I would bet a lot would pick POTO. Anyone want to do a poll on this topic?


[/I]

_The Phantom of the Opera_ is my favorite, following by _Aspects of Love_ and _Evita_. I think his best scores were _Aspects_ and _Sunset Boulevard_.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

Sonata said:


> Don Carlo is my favorite too!


French or Italian version. I am assuming Italian because you called it _Don Carlo_ instead of _Don Carlos_, but just want to check. I first bought the French version and sold it in favorite of the Giulini recording, which I love.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

I have two Don Carlo, both Italian yes. I would like to hear the French but have not yet.
I own Guilini as well as Haitink. I love them both!


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

gellio said:


> [/I]
> 
> _The Phantom of the Opera_ is my favorite, following by _Aspects of Love_ and _Evita_. I think his best scores were _Aspects_ and _Sunset Boulevard_.


My favorite - and one of my favorite musicals, period - is _Evita_. _Jesus Christ Superstar_ is next.

There are a lot I don't know. _Sunset Boulevard_ is next on my list to get to know.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

mountmccabe said:


> My favorite - and one of my favorite musicals, period - is _Evita_. _Jesus Christ Superstar_ is next.
> 
> There are a lot I don't know. _Sunset Boulevard_ is next on my list to get to know.


_Sweeney Todd_, in my opinion, is the greatest musical ever written. The concert performance recording with Patti LuPone is the best. I'm not a Sondheim fan, although I also love _Into the Woods_, but in a rarity to me, I much prefer the film recording to any other recording.

_Miss Saigon_ and _Les Miserables_ are also two of my most favorite works. The Complete Symphonic Recordings are so good, as is the 25th Anniversary _Les Miz_ recording.

Lots to discover. _Ragtime_ is another fantastic sung-through musical.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Sonata said:


> I have two Don Carlo, both Italian yes. I would like to hear the French but have not yet.
> I own Guilini as well as Haitink. I love them both!


As much as the Guilini is a classic, try the Karajan , CD and DVD are good, ( besides the bad recording on the CD).
My all time favourite is the Levine on DG with Freni and Domingo in a very classics setting,


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

gellio said:


> _Sweeney Todd_, in my opinion, is the greatest musical ever written. The concert performance recording with Patti LuPone is the best. I'm not a Sondheim fan, although I also love _Into the Woods_, but in a rarity to me, I much prefer the film recording to any other recording.
> 
> _Miss Saigon_ and _Les Miserables_ are also two of my most favorite works. The Complete Symphonic Recordings are so good, as is the 25th Anniversary _Les Miz_ recording.
> 
> Lots to discover. _Ragtime_ is another fantastic sung-through musical.


I am a big Sondheim fan, and really love _Sweeney Todd_. I have not seen that concert performance (SFS 2001?) but it's going on the list. The only version I've seen live was a similar concert performance with the NYPO in 2014. There were some issues with the cast, but it was still wonderful to see. I'm going to be back in NYC in May and will be seeing the Barrow Street production in a pie shop.

I thought the film version of _Into the Woods_ was fine, and at least better than other recent film adaptations of musicals. My favorite version is the Regent's Park production done outside, available to rent/purchase from Digital Theatre. I saw the same production (different cast) in NY Central Park, and it was everything.






I don't know what my favorite musicals are. _Les Miserables_ is on that list, too. There's a lot I love about the Complete Symphonic, but I prefer some of the performances on the original Broadway cast recording.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

mountmccabe said:


> My favorite - and one of my favorite musicals, period - is _Evita_. _Jesus Christ Superstar_ is next.
> 
> There are a lot I don't know. _Sunset Boulevard_ is next on my list to get to know.


I hate that Jesus don't get resurrected in Jesus Christ Superstar.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Musicals really fill a gap that has been created by contemporary opera - for tuneful and ejoyable stage pieces. POTO is not in the artistic league of Boheme of course not - but I would rather watch Joseph, Evita POTO than most or nearly all of post 1940 opera.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Sloe said:


> I hate that Jesus don't get resurrected in Jesus Christ Superstar.


I think the entire musical would need to be completely rewritten for it to end with that.

I started out listening to _Sunset Boulevard_ but then I went on a Sondheim YouTube fugue and couldn't go back. This led to bits from _A New Brain_ and _Next To Normal_.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

saw La La Land last night and thought it was marvellous. much to my surprise


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

stomanek said:


> saw La La Land last night and thought it was marvellous. much to my surprise


Must be the premiere of that piece as opera?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

stomanek said:


> saw La La Land last night and thought it was marvellous. much to my surprise


Went to see it with my wife. Both reckoned it was a very damp squib. Couldn't see what on earth all the fuss was about.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

DavidA said:


> Went to see it with my wife. Both reckoned it was a very damp squib. Couldn't see what on earth all the fuss was about.


I liked the visual side of it - thought the dancing/choreography was stylish - I liked the story and the general energy. The leads had a good chemistry between them.

My wife cried at the end and so were all the schoolgirls around her.

It's not on the level of west side story - but I enjoyed it.

I have seen pieces at the cinema that were hailed by critics - the The Kings Speech - thinking it's a lot of rubbish - but in this case the hype lived up.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

DavidA said:


> Went to see it with my wife. Both reckoned it was a very damp squib. Couldn't see what on earth all the fuss was about.


did you not see a trailer before going?
we did our research so were quite sure we would like it.


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

Pugg said:


> Must be the premiere of that piece as opera?


Yes, also known as 'In Fernem La La Land'


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Dongiovanni said:


> Yes, also known as 'In Fernem La La Land'


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

I listened to _Boheme_ this week, for the first time in a long long time. I had forgotten how much I liked it. In doing some research on it, this week, I stumbled across this quote from Benjamin Britten.

"After four or five performances I never wanted to hear Bohème again. In spite of its neatness, I became sickened by the cheapness and emptiness of the music."

What a prick. Talk about cheapness and emptiness of music - he perhaps was looking in the mirror when he said that.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

gellio said:


> I listened to _Boheme_ this week, for the first time in a long long time. I had forgotten how much I liked it. In doing some research on it, this week, I stumbled across this quote from Benjamin Britten.
> 
> "After four or five performances I never wanted to hear Bohème again. In spite of its neatness, I became sickened by the cheapness and emptiness of the music."
> 
> What a prick. Talk about cheapness and emptiness of music - he perhaps was looking in the mirror when he said that.


Oh dear, I think a can of worms is open now.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

I liked La Boheme so much that I named my cats Mimi and Rudolpho (although I usually just called him Rudy). In my case, Rudolpho is the one who got cancer and died young. 

I have watched The Phantom of the Opera on DVD. The one clever song is about the management getting demanding letters from the Phantom. The music is mostly not very good, although the masquerade number is okay, if a bit on the campy side. (In the movie, they played down the costumes, and I think the more extravagant version in the stage show worked better.) Music of the Night is supposed to be the big "tune," like "Memories" was for Cats, but it just isn't a very good song. (Yes, that is my opinion.) And the phantom in the movie simply cannot sing even a single note. The one redeeming quality of the phantom, the thing that should get us to empathize with him at least a little, is his love of beauty, for which his own singing must be an embodiment. As it stands, we have a horrible person with a horrible singing voice singing often horrible (or mediocre) music. I give Gerard Butler credit for courage, but give me Lon Chaney or Claude Rains, or even Herbert Lom over what ALW has foisted upon us.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

JAS said:


> I liked La Boheme so much that I named my cats Mimi and Rudolpho (although I usually just called him Rudy). In my case, Rudolpho is the one who got cancer and died young.
> 
> I have watched The Phantom of the Opera on DVD. The one clever song is about the management getting demanding letters from the Phantom. The music is mostly not very good, although the masquerade number is okay, if a bit on the campy side. (In the movie, they played down the costumes, and I think the more extravagant version in the stage show worked better.) Music of the Night is supposed to be the big "tune," like "Memories" was for Cats, but it just isn't a very good song. (Yes, that is my opinion.) And the phantom in the movie simply cannot sing even a single note. The one redeeming quality of the phantom, the thing that should get us to empathize with him at least a little, is his love of beauty, for which his own singing must be an embodiment. As it stands, we have a horrible person with a horrible singing voice singing often horrible (or mediocre) music. I give Gerard Butler credit for courage, but give me Lon Chaney or Claude Rains, or even Herbert Lom over what ALW has foisted upon us.


Well that's the problem - you watched the movie. It was absolutely horrible in performance, which does a huge disservice to the music. The cast recording with Brightman and Crawford is amazing. It heightens the music. I would never put ALW in the same category as our great opera composers, but I think the music of POTO is quiet good. Music of the Night, as performed by Crawford may change your mind about the song. How can it not be great, the main melody is nearly note-for-note taken from The Girl of the Golden West.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

gellio said:


> Well that's the problem - you watched the movie. It was absolutely horrible in performance, which does a huge disservice to the music. The cast recording with Brightman and Crawford is amazing. It heightens the music. I would never put ALW in the same category as our great opera composers, but I think the music of POTO is quiet good. Music of the Night, as performed by Crawford may change your mind about the song. How can it not be great, the main melody is nearly note-for-note taken from The Girl of the Golden West.


Actually, only one phrase of it is cribbed.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

gellio said:


> I listened to _Boheme_ this week, for the first time in a long long time. I had forgotten how much I liked it. In doing some research on it, this week, I stumbled across this quote from Benjamin Britten.
> 
> "After four or five performances I never wanted to hear Bohème again. In spite of its neatness, I became sickened by the cheapness and emptiness of the music."
> 
> What a prick. Talk about cheapness and emptiness of music - he perhaps was looking in the mirror when he said that.


So intemperate! Ben was entitled to his dislike. He's not the only one to find Puccini saccharine and annoying. And let's not even talk about Andrew LLoyd...

Oops.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

gellio said:


> Well that's the problem - you watched the movie. It was absolutely horrible in performance, which does a huge disservice to the music. The cast recording with Brightman and Crawford is amazing. It heightens the music. I would never put ALW in the same category as our great opera composers, but I think the music of POTO is quiet good. Music of the Night, as performed by Crawford may change your mind about the song. How can it not be great, the main melody is nearly note-for-note taken from The Girl of the Golden West.


Actually, I have heard Crawford sing it, which was, in fact, the first way I heard it. (I have also seen clips of the stage performances, but never felt compelled to see the thing live.) Crawford is certainly a better singer than Butler, although I find his own voice not all that great. In any case, I was still utterly unimpressed by the song. It is just trying so hard to be seductive and romantic but for all its vocal surging it just doesn't go anywhere . . . not for me anyway.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> So intemperate! Ben was entitled to his dislike. He's not the only one to find Puccini saccharine and annoying. And let's not even talk about Andrew LLoyd...
> 
> Oops.


True. I just find, that although I'm not a big fan of either, Puccini would (in my opinion) be rightfully place amongst the greatest opera composers. Britten? I'm not sure. I'm not a fan of the period he composed in. This would include, for me, Shostakovich and Prokofiev - two composers I love, but struggle with. I just find their works more compelling and what they did with the idiom more interesting than Britten did. I may not love every note of Prokofiev's operas, but I find myself awed at his orchestration and musical ideas. It doesn't see out there to be out there. Can't say the same for Britten. IMO, Britten would have loved to have Puccini's international success. Much like those Sondheim fans who trash Webber. While, I am a much bigger Sondheim fan than ALW, Sondheim's commercial success pales in comparison to ALW. Personally, I rather be more revered than rich, but ALW is laughing all the way to the bank.


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

stomanek said:


> saw La La Land last night and thought it was marvellous. much to my surprise


La la land is a good movie, but I think it a bit overrated. I love the opening scene and how the move ends. It cannot be compared to other big movies that was nominated for multiple awards such as Amadeus, Titanic, Out of Africa or Saving Private Ryan etc.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

gellio said:


> True. I just find, that although I'm not a big fan of either, Puccini would (in my opinion) be rightfully place amongst the greatest opera composers. Britten? I'm not sure. I'm not a fan of the period he composed in. This would include, for me, Shostakovich and Prokofiev - two composers I love, but struggle with. I just find their works more compelling and what they did with the idiom more interesting than Britten did. I may not love every note of Prokofiev's operas, but I find myself awed at his orchestration and musical ideas. It doesn't see out there to be out there. Can't say the same for Britten. IMO, Britten would have loved to have Puccini's international success. Much like those Sondheim fans who trash Webber. While, I am a much bigger Sondheim fan than ALW, Sondheim's commercial success pales in comparison to ALW. Personally, I rather be more revered than rich, but ALW is laughing all the way to the bank.


Oh, I absolutely agree that Puccini was a great opera composer. I would call his work highly effective and moving in a rather sentimental way, but that's not really meant to be insulting, as he does sentimental better than anyone before or since. That said, I wouldn't cross the street to see La Boheme and never listen to it, unless it's to hear really great singing, of which we are rather short these days. However, I can listen to the likes of Bjorling and Tebaldi do it forever and ever and ever, amen:


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

I was really disappointed in La La Land. I agree that the opening number was quite fun, and the choreography was largely great, but I didn't care for the story (which isn't necessarily a huge problem) or the main characters (which is).

But what I was most disappointed in was the singing. The dull, naturalistic style they used sucked the air out of the room every time it started. I started to cringe as the story would build, knowing that they were going to start singing soon, killing it.

The film was also pretty terrible on jazz. Seb is shocked when the lady brings up soft jazz as background music that people would talk over, so he drives her to a club where they listen for a moment, and then he proceeds to talk over the live jazz they're listening to. If I thought the movie was more clever I'd see this as mocking him, but I think it wants us to take him seriously. Plus the jazz they're listening to? Energetic, sure, but nothing that would have been out of place in the early to mid 50s. He cares about old timey jazz, and not a whit for what jazz has been doing in the past 60 years.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

gellio said:


> That led me to _Turandot_, which I love to this day


For those who don´t like opera or classical music there is a musical version of Turandot set in the sea:






Personally I prefer the Puccini version or the Chinese opera version.

My conclusion is that musicals are operas for people who don´t like classical music. In that they they can enjoy drama with music that sounds like the pop music they otherwise listen to and hear "normal" singing instead of the weird sounding classical trained voices


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Phantom is boring. Boheme is not. Easy choice.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Sloe said:


> For those who don´t like opera or classical music there is a musical version of Turandot set in the sea:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's still shocking to me to be reminded that for young people today operatic singing can sound weird. Within my lifetime, popular song had enough in common with classical music that it was commonly and effectively sung by voices that differed from operatic voices in little more than volume and range. Opera singers were frequent guests on TV variety shows, and Eileen Farrell had "a right to sing the blues" (and did it well). I grew up singing in church and school choirs where classical anthems and oratorios were a normal part of life, and opera seemed merely the logical next step in vocal accomplishment. Now we have people for whom a soprano voice sounds like screaming and vibrato sounds like something from another planet.

Lament over. Back to my jigsaw puzzle. Where's that little blue piece? And where are my bifocals?


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> It's still shocking to me to be reminded that for young people today operatic singing can sound weird. Within my lifetime, popular song had enough in common with classical music that it was commonly and effectively sung by voices that differed from operatic voices in little more than volume and range. Opera singers were frequent guests on TV variety shows, and Eileen Farrell had "a right to sing the blues" (and did it well). I grew up singing in church and school choirs where classical anthems and oratorios were a normal part of life, and opera seemed merely the logical next step in vocal accomplishment. Now we have people for whom a soprano voice sounds like screaming and vibrato sounds like something from another planet.
> 
> Lament over. Back to my jigsaw puzzle. Where's that little blue piece? And where are my bifocals?


I once had a co-worker declare that he saw no value in opera because it was all based on a singing gimmick. He proceeded to do his caricature of an opera singer, and I could certainly understand why he wouldn't want to hear _that_, whatever it actually was.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

JAS said:


> I once had a co-worker declare that he saw no value in opera because it was all based on a singing gimmick. He proceeded to do his caricature of an opera singer, and I could certainly understand why he wouldn't want to hear _that_, whatever it actually was.


So sad. ..................


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> So sad. ..................


very, very sad.


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## Eddy Rodgers K (Feb 12, 2017)

JAS said:


> I once had a co-worker declare that he saw no value in opera because it was all based on a singing gimmick. He proceeded to do his caricature of an opera singer, and I could certainly understand why he wouldn't want to hear _that_, whatever it actually was.


Makes you want to punch a wall.

A singing gimmick? What does that even mean?


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Phantom is boring. Boheme is not. Easy choice.


In your opinion. Phantom is far from boring. I love musical theater and the reason Phantom is celebrating it's 30th anniversary in London would indicate that your opinion is in the rarity. While I wouldn't say Boheme is boring, I would say I value Puccini's works far less than any other major opera composer.


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## mrravioli (Feb 2, 2014)

Apple to orange.

La Boheme, when sung by good singers, demonstrates how good music can magically turn an idiot story into a classic. However, it's still an idiot story, even among operas (most of which have inferior plots by literature standard).

Phantom of the Opera is totally another creature. And it has top-notch plot and music in its own category. I personally don't enjoy musicals a lot, but PotO is somehow an exception. A charming work by all standards.


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## ma7730 (Jun 8, 2015)

mrravioli said:


> (most of which have inferior plots by literature standard)


For every great work of literature, there are hundreds of inferior works which have been forgotten over the ages. However, operas with bad stories can be saved by the music. So I think the qualities of the stories are about the same, it's just far more operas with poor writing are preserved.

Also, how is _Boheme_ an "idiot" story? What does that even mean?



mrravioli said:


> A charming work by all standards.


On what accounts is it charming? It's certainly no more "literary" than _Boheme_. And the music is far more cliché and insipid than _Boheme_'s.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

gellio said:


> In your opinion. Phantom is far from boring. I love musical theater and the reason Phantom is celebrating it's 30th anniversary in London would indicate that your opinion is in the rarity. While I wouldn't say Boheme is boring, I would say I value Puccini's works far less than any other major opera composer.


But still La Boheme will be around ( and other Puccini works) in another 100 years from now.


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