# Most embarrassing gap?



## bwv543 (May 25, 2021)

If you're like me, you have some gaps in your knowledge of the symphonic repertoire. What is your most glaring or embarrassing gap?

For me, there are a couple of big gaps. Schubert: I know the Unfinished symphony, but have virtually zero knowledge of his other symphonies, even the Great C major. Tchaikovsky: I know the 6th symphony pretty well, and the first movement of the 4th, but that's about it. And I don't know the Prokofiev or Rachmaninoff symphonies at all.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

In the past 35 years I've listened to loads of symphonies. Even so, I just started exploring Weinberg (only one listen to each CD so far). And although I have listened to Schnittke in the past, I feel he's due for another round.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

My symphonic listening is pretty much a straight line from Haydn - Mozart - Beethoven - Schubert - Mendelssohn - Brahms - Dvorak - Tchaikovsky - Saint-Saens - Franck - Shostakovich - Copland - Bernstein

My massive gaps are Berlioz, Liszt, Mahler, Bruckner, Glazunov, Rachmaninoff, Prokofiev, Stravinsky, Vaughan-Williams

I don't dispute the quality of the music, I've just never been able to get into them.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I am no longer embarrassed about any gaps. There are also more in my listening than in my shelves. So the embarrassment is more that I have stuff here I have never listened to (probably the Bernstein symphonies) or only 1-3 times and not really have digested it, either for lack of leisure or because it didn't grab me (this is true for many pieces, e.g. Liszt's Faust symphony, most of RVW, except songs, Xmas piece (Hodie) and Tallis variations, all of which I prefer to the symphonies I remember).
The gaps I feel I should close (again, there's a lot on the shelves) more than some overripe late romantic symphonies, is late medieval and Renaissance vocal music. But it's daunting and I usually don't feel like it.

But for more standard repertoire, clearly my most glaring gaps are opera where I am hardly familiar with comparably famous pieces from the belcanto period or verismo or Janacek or Richard Strauss. But I am not bothered by this. I prefer opera on stage (and I can usually not be bothered to go because there are large expenses and travel involved) and for audio only home listen I prefer the pieces I am already familiar with.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

bwv543 said:


> If you're like me, you have some gaps in your knowledge of the symphonic repertoire. What is your most glaring or embarrassing gap?
> 
> For me, there are a couple of big gaps. Schubert: I know the Unfinished symphony, but have virtually zero knowledge of his other symphonies, even the Great C major. Tchaikovsky: I know the 6th symphony pretty well, and the first movement of the 4th, but that's about it. And I don't know the Prokofiev or Rachmaninoff symphonies at all.


I've got loads of gaps...but I'm not embarrassed by them. Why would I be? Should I be?

Schubert - I've not finished listening to...you know...and none of the others. Brahms, and Bruckner, perhaps one each, but others untried. Only Paris and London from Haydn, so a decent selection, but hardly substantial. Tchaikovsky only no 6. Schumann only bits and pieces...

I could go on...


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

bwv543 said:


> For me, there are a couple of big gaps. Schubert: I know the Unfinished symphony, but have virtually zero knowledge of his other symphonies, even the Great C major. Tchaikovsky: I know the 6th symphony pretty well, and the first movement of the 4th, but that's about it. And I don't know the Prokofiev or Rachmaninoff symphonies at all.


Per your reply in the "underrated symphonies" thread, I'd recommend to listen to the Schubert Great C major (you can take or leave the first 6, they are very charming but I think they are overrated and overrecorded, same could be said for Tchaikovsky's 1-3), Rachmaninoff (at least #2) and Prokofiev (at least 1,2,5,6) before any more Raff, Gade, Rott or Braga Santos... 
The history of music reception and criticism and its making of "masterworks" may not be always fair but it is not a totally unreliable guide to quality and historical importance.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

bwv543 said:


> If you're like me, you have some gaps in your knowledge of the symphonic repertoire. What is your most glaring or embarrassing gap?


You're speaking specifially of symphonies, or are you including in that works for a symphony orchestra?


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

The only really glaring symphonic gaps I have are those by those composers I'm interested in but haven't got around to investigating thoroughly yet (Ernst Toch, William Schuman), or at all (Allan Pettersson). There are many symphonies by Haydn which I don't have but as I already have 26 of his I'm not likely to lose much sleep over that, and I can't say that I'm going to go out of my way to collect all 27 of Myaskovsky's either.

Out of the composers I do like a lot one strange gap is not having the Symphony in C by Stravinsky - strange because I have nearly everything else by him from _The Firebird_ onwards, and strange because it is a work I quite like. Buying it on disc now probably means acquiring another recording of a work or works I already have, so in this instance I'm happy enough to go on youtube if ever I want to hear the symphony itself.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I think ive dipped my toes in most composer's musical lakes so theres few embarrassing gaps. Brahms was my biggest gap for years (even though I had collected quite a few cycles on the cheap but rarely played them). I really didnt get him for ages but once I did, I immersed myself fully and these days have and enjoy multiple cycles.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

One big gap is Alan Hovhannes. I only have one of his symphonies out of 67 to 75, depending on who's counting.


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## Livly_Station (Jan 8, 2014)

I have so many gaps that I'd rather not feel embarassed.

Btw, people should consider not kowing Villa-Lobos' symphonies a gap


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

I've been in music all my life but joining TC made me realise the gaps I have which are many. I try to rectify this as often as I can via the current listening threads and the other period threads. It's an education being here, but we all need more than one lifetime right?
Villa Lobos Symphonies...ok another gap exposed thnx Livly S.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

The mid-20th c Americans: William Schuman, David Diamond, Alan Hovhaness, Roy Harris, Howard Hanson, Paul Creston, and others. I own a lot of the recordings, but rarely listen to it and really don't care. It's all very technically proficient, but never really grabbed my attention other than a few things like Hanson 2.


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## Livly_Station (Jan 8, 2014)

mikeh375 said:


> Villa Lobos Symphonies...ok another gap exposed thnx Livly S.


Haha, don't worry, it's just personal propaganda -- I'm no authority, while other people usually don't rate Villa-Lobos' symphonies very highly. I adore Nos. 3 ("War"), 4 ("Victory") and 6 ("On the Outline of the Mountains"), but some others will be included once I get more familiar with them.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

With little exception I don't know the huge symphonic oeuvres of Weinberg, Langgaard, Myaskovsky, and Villa-Lobos. I have loved what I have heard but the amount of music is so overwhelming I don't know where and how to proceed. I've never spent enough time with the later symphonies of RVW, and I can't say I know most of the Tchaikovsky symphonies very well either, but that's because they frankly bore me to death and every time I start listening to one (besides the 6th), my mind wanders


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

I'm not sure I think of this as a gap but certainly there are few second division (if its fair to call them that) British composers' Symphonic output I've not got around to investigating - Rubbra, Stanford, Parry, Alwyn, Brain, Lloyd and a few others I can't recall.
Frankly I'm not sure if I have the time or desire to get around to most of them so certainly not embarrassing.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

If one spends enough time in online fora one can apparently reach the point where one considers not having the symphonic (or other) works of any 3rd rate composer unearthed by some niche label or an overeager composer's society as a gap. This is not having gaps, it can be still having some focus and ability of selection


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## Livly_Station (Jan 8, 2014)

Kreisler jr said:


> If one spends enough time in online fora one can apparently reach the point where one considers not having the symphonic (or other) works of any 3rd rate composer unearthed by some niche label or an overeager composer's society as a gap. This is not having gaps, it can be still having some focus and ability of selection


Isn't it the common phenomenon of "the more you know, the more you're aware of what you don't know"?


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Not necessarily. 
One does not need to consider what one does not know as "gap". 
I bet there are quite a few collectors of "Rubbra, Stanford, Parry" etc. who don't consider it "gaps" not having all (or any?) of CPE Bach's keyboard works or all of Monteverdi's madrigals.


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## Livly_Station (Jan 8, 2014)

Kreisler jr said:


> Not necessarily.
> One does not need to consider what one does not know as "gap".
> I bet there are quite a few collectors of "Rubbra, Stanford, Parry" etc. who don't consider it "gaps" not having all (or any?) of CPE Bach's keyboard works or all of Monteverdi's madrigals.


Yeah, but I ain't seeing people here saying that they have gaps just because they haven't listened to _everything_ ever.

It's just that sometimes you feel like you still don't have a good grasp of the music of a certain decade or period or style despite knowing some of the most enduring greatest hits of the time. It's some of the lesser known works that give you a better picture of the music scene of the time, the context, the tropes, and all these things even give you a better undestandment of the masterpieces you already know.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Gaps. Check.

There is too much music, and not enough time to hear it all.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I think I am where I want to be with symphonies. I am well acquainted with those I want to be acquainted with and have sampled many "2nd and 3rd league symphonies" and made at least a slightly informed decision about which I want to know. But you never know what is around the corner. A few years ago I didn't know about the Schmidt symphonies .... . Also, I did enjoy Louise Ferrenc's 3rd when I heard it the other week and will spend more time with her symphonies in the coming months.

But the great days of the symphony are perhaps over and much of the music I feel a need to explore - my big gap - is not symphonic.


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## MrMeatScience (Feb 15, 2015)

I feel pretty well-versed in the canonical symphonic repertoire, especially for someone my age (mid-20s). Obviously there's loads of stuff outside the traditional canon, of which I've heard a lot but only a tiny fraction of what's out there. I do have a comparatively large blind spot in the form of the sort of second-tier 19/20th century British composers, especially for someone who lives in Britain. I think I could count on my fingers the number of pieces I've heard from the likes of Bax, Stanford, Simpson, et al.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I'm sure I have more symphonic gaps than I care to count -- but my most embarrassing non-operatic CM gap is the Shostakovich quartets.


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## gvn (Dec 14, 2019)

I think my worst symphonic gap is the pre-Beethoven period. I enjoy, and revisit fairly often, the symphonies of Mozart, _both_ Haydns, _both_ Bachs (CPE and JC), and the few by Dittersdorf and Vanhal that I have. So I suspect I'd also enjoy other symphonies of the same period. But I know virtually nothing of them. Kozeluch? Cannabich? Wranitzky? Pleyel? Gossec? Mere names.

Another embarrassing (to me) gap is symphonists who were once popular but are now forgotten. Recently I was looking at Charles O'Connell's _Victor Book of the Symphony_ (2nd ed., 1941). Among post-1900 symphony composers, O'Connell picks out the following:

Howard Hanson
Roy Harris
Harl McDonald
Gustav Mahler
Sergei Prokofiev
Sergei Rachmaninoff
Dmitri Shostakovich
Jean Sibelius

The five non-Americans I know. But Hanson and Harris... well, I suppose I've _heard_ most of their symphonies, but (with one exception in each case) I don't believe I could pick any of them out of a police lineup. And Harl McDonald?????


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

gvn said:


> I think my worst symphonic gap is the pre-Beethoven period. I enjoy, and revisit fairly often, the symphonies of Mozart, _both_ Haydns, _both_ Bachs (CPE and JC), and the few by Dittersdorf and Vanhal that I have. So I suspect I'd also enjoy other symphonies of the same period. But I know virtually nothing of them. Kozeluch? Cannabich? Wranitzky? Pleyel? Gossec? Mere names.


I think many people would say that you have that gap well closed with the selection of Bach sons, Haydns, Vanhal, Dittersdorf. 
The one of Mozart's generation who is a bit different and worthwhile is Joseph Martin Kraus (Concerto Köln on Capriccio or a Swedish ensemble on Naxos). And the older generation with pieces around the mid-century might be also more interesting than most of the Haydn/Mozart contemporaries you named with question marks, F.X. Richter, Sammartini, Wagenseil, Monn.


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## bwv543 (May 25, 2021)

Kreisler jr, thank you for mentioning the "Swedish Mozart"! I'm actually a big fan of Kraus's symphonies and the Naxos collection is delightful. One or two of his slow movements rank up there with the best of Mozart and Haydn in my book.

In my original post, maybe "embarrassing gap" wasn't the best wording. My head isn't hung down in shame over what I don't know, and as pointed out earlier, this site is a great place to come to realize how much one doesn't know. What I was trying to get at was, for each person, an area of the symphonic repertoire they maybe think they should know but don't, or a gap they think a college music professor might chide them for.

And while I was originally thinking of symphonies, specifically, I suppose the whole orchestral (non-operatic) repertoire is up for discussion, in which case I should fess up that I've only just started discovering the tone poems of Liszt and R. Strauss. Mazeppa is an absolute delight.


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## Endeavour (Sep 9, 2021)

Hadn't really thought about it before, but I guess my biggest gap is modern composers. I don't know that I have heard more than a handful of works from the last 40-50 years.


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## bwv543 (May 25, 2021)

Kreisler jr said:


> Per your reply in the "underrated symphonies" thread, I'd recommend to listen to the Schubert Great C major (you can take or leave the first 6, they are very charming but I think they are overrated and overrecorded, same could be said for Tchaikovsky's 1-3), Rachmaninoff (at least #2) and Prokofiev (at least 1,2,5,6) before any more Raff, Gade, Rott or Braga Santos...
> The history of music reception and criticism and its making of "masterworks" may not be always fair but it is not a totally unreliable guide to quality and historical importance.


So I took a break from my current music awareness project to listen to Schubert's 9th today and I am hooked. I will say that the first two movements strike me as much more memorable than the last two, but of course it's too soon to really say I'm well-acquainted with the piece. I think I may have had parts of the first two movements before, as some of the melodies sound vaguely familiar.

Anyway, thanks for the recommendation! I do agree, btw, that the musical canon, while imperfect, is a pretty good indicator of where the really great stuff is. But I do enjoy finding the out of the way gems as well. (Rontgen, anyone?)


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

gvn said:


> I think my worst symphonic gap is the pre-Beethoven period. I enjoy, and revisit fairly often, the symphonies of Mozart, _both_ Haydns, _both_ Bachs (CPE and JC), and the few by Dittersdorf and Vanhal that I have. So I suspect I'd also enjoy other symphonies of the same period. But I know virtually nothing of them. Kozeluch? Cannabich? Wranitzky? Pleyel? Gossec? Mere names.






I. Allegretto - Andante pastorale - Allegretto - Villanella grazioso, un poco adagio : 00:00
II. Tempo mederno (Allegretto) : 09:40
III. Allegro molto : 12:44
IV. Tempo mederno (Allegro molto) : 18:38
V. L´inno con variazioni - Andantino -Coro : Allegro con brio - Andantino : 20:59

There's actually evidence Beethoven studied Knecht's work.
"Vollständige Orgelschule (Leipzig, 1795-1798/1989) - Ludwig van Beethoven owned a copy of this work"

Knecht symphony: 0:57
Beethoven Op.125/i: 3:27

Knecht symphony: 12:20
Beethoven Op.67/iii: 22:00

also, notice the "continuity":
12:30 , 18:30 , 20:50
and "recalling of themes" across movements in the Knecht symphony:
0:00 , 20:04 , 0:58 , 9:40


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

bwv543 said:


> So I took a break from my current music awareness project to listen to Schubert's 9th today and I am hooked. I will say that the first two movements strike me as much more memorable than the last two, but of course it's too soon to really say I'm well-acquainted with the piece. I think I may have had parts of the first two movements before, as some of the melodies sound vaguely familiar.


Even after over 30 years listening to it, I still think it is a problematic piece and that the last two movements are too long with all the repeats. The scherzo at least has enough memorable material (and the trio was a favorite from the beginning) but the finale seems sometimes notespinning of not very memorable stuff and needs a good balance of drive and flexibility not to become either boring or brutal.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

I have no CD from the 2nd Vienesse School movement, and Vaughan Williams. I've never listened to a single minute of that British composer in 7 years into CM.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Granate said:


> I have no CD from the 2nd Vienesse School movement, and Vaughan Williams. I've never listened to a single minute of that British composer in 7 years into CM.


Wow. For an avid and discerning listener like you, that is quite an admission.


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## Yabetz (Sep 6, 2021)

For me it's the Prokofiev symphonies. I don't know why, but I've never given them much of a listen. It's the same with the earlier Schubert symphonies and all of Schumann's, unfortunately.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Granate said:


> I have no CD from the 2nd Vienesse School movement, and Vaughan Williams. I've never listened to a single minute of that British composer in 7 years into CM.


I am pretty sure that I knew but the name of Vaughan Williams after 7 years into CM. Of course this was the early 1990s with the internet in its infancy and a typical German concert guide book would have one superficial page on this composer, no discussion of individual works. The first disc I might have heard was one with the Tallis fantasia (still my favorite work of his) I checked out from a library around 1995 (I rarely had easy access to public libraries that had classical CDs).

Vaughan Williams and a few others are taken as (at least on the border of) core repertoire in the anglosphere but are niche composers in most of continental Europe. I don't know if you particularly favor Soler, Arriaga, Albeniz, de Falla etc. in Spain but it is a similar situation.
How much Reger or Taneyev have you listened to? Would anyone consider knowing little of them a remarkable gap?


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

bwv543 said:


> If you're like me, you have some gaps in your knowledge of the symphonic repertoire. What is your most glaring or embarrassing gap?
> 
> For me, there are a couple of big gaps. Schubert: I know the Unfinished symphony, but have virtually zero knowledge of his other symphonies, even the Great C major. Tchaikovsky: I know the 6th symphony pretty well, and the first movement of the 4th, but that's about it. And I don't know the Prokofiev or Rachmaninoff symphonies at all.


I love Schubert, but not being conversant with all of his Symphonies isn't that much of a sin. Most of them were teenage efforts, and wondering what he might have produced had he even lived to Mozart's age is one of the great "what ifs " in Music History. The best of the lot besides the two mentioned above is the Fifth.
One of my great discoveries about 20 years ago were the Symphonies of Ralph Vaughn Williams. I have always meant to explore other English Symphonists such as Rubbra and Simpson but never made the leap. Now with streaming putting everything a click away I should rectify that


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Kreisler jr said:


> I am pretty sure that I knew but the name of Vaughan Williams after 7 years into CM. Of course this was the early 1990s with the internet in its infancy and a typical German concert guide book would have one superficial page on this composer, no discussion of individual works. The first disc I might have heard was one with the Tallis fantasia (still my favorite work of his) I checked out from a library around 1995 (I rarely had easy access to public libraries that had classical CDs).
> 
> Vaughan Williams and a few others are taken as (at least on the border of) core repertoire in the anglosphere but are niche composers in most of continental Europe. I don't know if you particularly favor Soler, Arriaga, Albeniz, de Falla etc. in Spain but it is a similar situation.
> How much Reger or Taneyev have you listened to? Would anyone consider knowing little of them a remarkable gap?


I just listening to the Antartica (RVW Symphony #7) last night, the Bryden Thompson recording with the LSO on Chandon. It was the Haitink recording of the piece that hooked me on the Composer, and I've also listened quite a bit to Boult, but I was just marveling at the use of the wordless Soprano in I with the wind machine and how RVW paints a picture of forbidding desolation


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Yabetz said:


> For me it's the Prokofiev symphonies. I don't know why, but I've never given them much of a listen. It's the same with the earlier Schubert symphonies and all of Schumann's, unfortunately.


I really dislike 2,3, and 7. 4 and 6 are interesting but the two gems are the Classical Symphony and the Fifth. I don't think that Prokofiev was a particularly good Symphonist


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## Burbage (Nov 27, 2007)

Kreisler jr said:


> Vaughan Williams and a few others are taken as (at least on the border of) core repertoire in the anglosphere but are niche composers in most of continental Europe. I don't know if you particularly favor Soler, Arriaga, Albeniz, de Falla etc. in Spain but it is a similar situation.


Though what you say is true about VW, and Reger, Taneyev, Soler etc., an exception must be made for Albeniz who, if only for alphabetical reasons, remains top of the indisputable musical canon*.

*_It will, I think, save much time, argument and countless threads, if I just leave the link to the Indisputable Musical Canon, which has formed the basic education of millions of Europeans, here. Some might, perhaps, consider it a little too euro-centric, but the cultural influence of the Lands Without Bluegrass has, of necessity, been a heavy one._


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Triplets said:


> I really dislike 2,3, and 7. 4 and 6 are interesting but the two gems are the Classical Symphony and the Fifth. I don't think that Prokofiev was a particularly good Symphonist


_Gramophone_ once said that Prokofiev wasn't a natural symphonist. On that occasion I was inclined to agree with them. I do enjoy most of Prokofiev's symphonies (especially 2, 5 and 6) but compared to certain other categories - i.e. opera, ballet, works for piano - the symphony didn't seem to be his particular _metier_.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I'd even say that some of the de Falla "bonbons" (Nights with a three cornered hat and the miller's wife or sth. like that, maybe RWV should have done a ballet on Chaucer...) is internationally better known, more widespread.

This is nothing against RWV (I not a huge fan but like some works like the Tallis fantasia a lot) but that there are still some regional differences although far less than in former times of what can be considered a "gap". And there is nothing wrong with that.
My impression is that British and Scandinavian labels and musicians have been by far the most successful in the last ca. 40 years to make accessible their lesser known national composers via recordings. Germany, Austria, Russia (one maybe simply has to acknowledge that Pfitzner or Miaskowsky are not as popular in their home countries as RWV or Elgar are in Britain) are doing o.k. but lesser known French, Italian, Spanish music is still mostly unknown and hardly promoted at all.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Triplets said:


> I really dislike 2,3, and 7. 4 and 6 are interesting but the two gems are the Classical Symphony and the Fifth. I don't think that Prokofiev was a particularly good Symphonist


I kind of agree. He wasn't a natural symphonist. The closest he comes to writing a real (traditional in terms of structure and argument) symphony is often said to be the 6th. But many of the others are deeply satisfying.

Does it really matter if they are not perfect symphonies. They are not alone in that. I really like 2 and 3 (2 uses the structure of Beethoven's Op. 111 sonata; 3 reworks material from the Fiery Angel) and I would have thought that anyone who enjoys Prokofiev's earlier and more discordant music to enjoy them as well. What's not to like? They are packed with invention and striking music.

I am not a great fan of 4 but 5 and 6 are great works. I have mixed feelings about 7.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Gaps?
Likely, early music.
Since I grew up with Romanticism which led me forward to 20th century (and now 21st century) music, especially the more experimental, avant-garde stuff, and which led me backwards a bit to Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven, I realize I have not well explored the vast number of "classical era" masters in that second tier below H, M, and B. Of course I've heard a few works here and there by folks of the era, but I don't know that era as I do the 19th and 20th centuries.

Too, since I was a late-comer to the music of Bach, my knowledge of the vast field of Baroque music is rather limited. I have listened to quite a bit of Vivaldi, Telemann and Handel, music which I enjoy, and I've dipped a toe into the waters of quite a few of the other fellows of that era (especially the French Baroque masters whom I explored professionally while preparing a musical version of Moliere's comedy _The Imaginary Invalid_), but I cannot claim any level of proficiency in Baroque music. It is indeed a mountain, of which I've explored only the molehills, though Bach, Handel, Vivaldi, and Telemann create quite monstrous molehills. Still, you know what I mean.

Which leads me backwards ever farther to the Medieval and Renaissance periods of music in which I have no firm grip on at all, though I admire masses by Palestrina and music of Allegri and guitar works by Anonymous. But since I favor music from Haydn onwards, including jazz and to some degree pop/rock and of course experimental and noise music, I have to leave something behind. I've chosen that something to be the earlier music.

Though I must admit, that every so often when I do dip into the early music eras and explore a new composer or work, I generally find it refreshingly worthwhile of my time. Time remains the villain, always.


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