# They love to hate that genre you like? Convert the disbelievers!



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Looking at the thread "The Music Genres That You Love To Hate" I think that many have thought reading certain posts that someone had just a misconception of a genre, like having only certain peculiarities and cliches. Or simply you've thought how it is possible to dislike that beautiful piece you have in mind. So this would like to be a thread for those who want to post suggestions of particular artists, albums of pieces that you think could "convert the disbelievers". And for those who are curious enough to try again with that genre that disgust them.

For instance, I've seen many votes for "cool jazz" in the other thread. Now, when I began to listen jazz I remember to have read something like that it was just a watered down version made of the real thing, and not liking many ECM things I had listened I was diffident. Now I know that altough there's a part of truth in this story considering certain albums, I know also that there are real gems. Sure, if your idea of jazz is only Albert Ayler, Mingus or Pharoah Sanders you would not find that kind of stuff, but the best of the genre is very refined and subtle music that simply put is some of the best music jazz could offer.





Teddy Charles - Margo





Stan Getz - Sweet rain





Jimmy Giuffre - Jesus Maria





Paul Desmond - Warm valley





Red Norvo trio - September song


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

I think that the poster actually meant Smooth jazz


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## Serge (Mar 25, 2010)

Piwikiwi said:


> I think that the poster actually meant Smooth jazz


Yes, thanks! I mislabeled the tag, but was thinking of Smooth jazz. Shows how well I know my jazz too! 

I don't know what the voters meant though, so it could just be written off as a tainted category. A pity I couldn't edit it when I caught the mistake.


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## Serge (Mar 25, 2010)

And anybody please don't try to convert me on post-rock! Or Christmas carols!


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

Post-rock 

Think of it like prog rock except instead of classical sounding noodling there's long passages of limp droning/nothing


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*Impossible*

If a person hates a genre or composer I like, I have found that it is almost impossible to change his mind.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

arpeggio said:


> If a person hates a genre or composer I like, I have found that it is almost impossible to change his mind.


I have changed my mind a few times. For instance I didn't like at all reggae but when I heard the album of Bim Sherman called Miracle I thought it was great. Sure it's not the typical reggae album but it was a proof for me that my idea of the genre was wrong and stereotypical. 
The same for country music, I thought it wasn't for me until I heard the beautiful album of James Talley "Got no bread, no milk no money". Curiously, there are those who consider that album "country for those who usually don't like country" (or something like that).
About single artists, I didn't like Prince until I heard his "Ballad of Dorothy Parker", one of my favorite pop songs ever.
And talking of genres first I didn't like even jazz (not just cool jazz, but jazz in general: I thought it was boring, that was always gratuitous and pretentious noodling, etc) and now I absolutely love it and I know how much different things there are. 
Sometimes those problems with a whole genre are just a matter of lack of curiosity.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

arpeggio said:


> If a person hates a genre or composer I like, I have found that it is almost impossible to change his mind.


Impossible? Anything is possible. Probable? Probably not, though there are exceptions. Damn exceptions. Can't the world simply be black and white? :tiphat:


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## Schubussy (Nov 2, 2012)

...everything _especially_ country

Neko Case - Things That Scare Me





Gillian Welch - Caleb Meyer





Townes van Zandt - Dead Flowers





...and hip-hop

Arts the Beatdoctor - Fragments





Nas - It Ain't Hard to Tell





A Tribe Called Quest - Description of a Fool





Edan - Making Planets


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## Matsps (Jan 13, 2014)

For everyone who hated on rap in that thread.

_You will (may be) be converted..._

Modern day commercial rap music, as we probably all know, is about fast cars, loose women, money, violence or in other words, promotes many things that pretty much bad. Along with this, we are presented with fairly generic beats and usually meaningless lyrics.

This is not the music to judge rap from.

Actual rap (i.e. Not commercial money making rubbish) is all about the _lyrics_. A great rap song should tell a story or give an opinion. The words should flow like poetry and the music should compliment. Here are some examples of what rap can (and should) be:

*Binary Star - Honest Expression* - Starting with a Bruce Lee quote and then laying down what rap is really about. Also contains one of my favourite lines ever "everything that glitters ain't gold, and every gold record don't glitter, that's for damn sure"






*Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five - The Message *

About the streets of NYC - Giving the cold hard truth.






*Immortal Technique - Dance With the Devil* - An absorbing story (with an unexpected twist) filled with emotion and sadness backed by a beautiful piano riff:


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

I think that progressive music gets a bad rap. But not what most people think of when they think of progressive. 

Most think of it as ELP or YES, with over the top classical quotations, and being somewhat pompous, because they were the bands that reached radio and major concert venues. Although I do like those forms, there are other, much less commercial sub-genres that are more interesting, and might even appeal to many people here.

These are bands that sprang out of the 'Rock in Opposition' movement of the mid 70's spearheaded by Henry Cow, but then it became a musical style on it's own. Also called avant-prog. 

These are bands much influenced by the 20th century composers, as opposed to the Classical era composers of ELP and YES and their ilk. Common elements that may or may not be displayed by specific avant-prog artists include:

- Regular use of dissonance and atonality.
- Extremely complex and unpredictable song arrangements.
- Free or experimental improvisation.
- Fusion of disparate musical genres.
- Polyrhythms and highly complex time signatures.
- Use of non-rock instruments; cello, violin, oboe, English horn, extended percussion, double bass.

To name a few:

Universe Zero (Belgium)
The Thinking Plague (USA)
Motor Totomest Guild (USA)
Present (Belgium)
Art Zoyd (France)
Miriodor (Canada)
5UU's (USA)
Yugen (Italy)
Discus (Indonesia) They also combine their native Gamalon.
Ahvak (Israel)
Bise De Valse (France)
HÖYRY-KONE (Finland)
Aranis (Belgium)
SKE (italy)

I believe that those that like 20th century classical might find something to like in these bands. These types of bands were my 'gateway' into the 20th century music.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Matsps said:


> *Binary Star - Honest Expression* - Starting with a Bruce Lee quote and then laying down what rap is really about. Also contains one of my favourite lines ever "everything that glitters ain't gold, and every gold record don't glitter, that's for damn sure"




I just had an interesting experience. I thought they were saying the same sentence delayed five seconds. Then I figured out I clicked the Youtube video twice. It was a nice effect.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

norman bates said:


> Looking at the thread "The Music Genres That You Love To Hate" I think that many have thought reading certain posts that someone had just a misconception of a genre, like having only certain peculiarities and cliches. Or simply you've thought how it is possible to dislike that beautiful piece you have in mind. So this would like to be a thread for those who want to post suggestions of particular artists, albums of pieces that you think could "convert the disbelievers". And for those who are curious enough to try again with that genre that disgust them.
> 
> For instance, I've seen many votes for "cool jazz" in the other thread. Now, when I began to listen jazz I remember to have read something like that it was just a watered down version made of the real thing, and not liking many ECM things I had listened I was diffident. Now I know that altough there's a part of truth in this story considering certain albums, I know also that there are real gems. Sure, if your idea of jazz is only Albert Ayler, Mingus or Pharoah Sanders you would not find that kind of stuff, but the best of the genre is very refined and subtle music that simply put is some of the best music jazz could offer.
> 
> ...


I liked the first one, nice harmony. The style of drum playing is not my favorite thing, but I can take it.

I found the Jimmy Giuffre quite enigmatic and intriguing. I really liked it. Now I'm listeting to his album "Fusion".

The others were a little too mellow to my taste.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Here's a good list by Pierre Scaruffi...

Soft Machine: Third (CBS, 1970)
Faust (Polydor, 1971)
King Crimson: In The Court Of The Crimson King (1969)
Pink Floyd: Ummagumma (Harvest, 1969)
Van Der Graaf Generator: Pawn Hearts (1971)
Gong: Radio Gnome Invisible (1973)
Third Ear Band: Third Ear Band (1970)
Popol Vuh: In Den Garten Pharaos (1972)
Roxy Music: Roxy Music (1972)
Can: Future Days (Spoon, 1973)
Magma: Mekanik Destruktiw Kommandoh (1973)
Mike Oldfield: Tubular Bells (Virgin, 1973)
Phish: A Picture Of Nectar (Elektra, 1992)
Birdsongs Of The Mesozoic: Magnetic Flip (Ace Of Hearts, 1984)
Henry Cow: Unrest (Virgin, 1974)
Art Zoyd: Phase IV (1982)
Univers Zero: Heresie (Cryonic, 1979)
Djam Karet: Reflections From The Firepool (HC, 1989)
Amon Duul II: Yeti (1970)
Ozric Tentacles: Strangeitude (Demi Monde, 1991)
Clearlight: Clearlight Symphony (Virgin, 1974)
Yes: Close To The Edge (1972)
Dream Theater: Images And Words (Atco, 1992)
Algarnas Trabgard: The Garden Of The Elks (1972)
Voice Of Eye: Vespers (Cyclotron, 1994)
Bo Hansson: Lord of the Rings (1970)
Alboth: Liebefeld (Permis De Construire, 1992)
Cyrille Verdeux: Messenger Of The Son (Musea, 1984)
After Dinner: Paradise Of Replica (Recommended, 1989)
Einsturzende Neubaten: Zeichnungen das Patienten (PVC, 1983)
Material: Memory Serves (1981)
Mofungo: Out Of Line (Zoar, 1983)
Ordinaires: One (Restless, 1989)
Ruins: Stonehenge (Shimmy Disc, 1990)
Caravan: In The Land Of Grey And Pink (1971)
Iceburn: Hephaestus (Revelation, 1993)
Matching Mole (CBS, 1972)
Nucleus: Belladonna (Vertigo, 1972)
Hugh Hopper: 1984 (CBS, 1973)
Ragnarok: Ragnarok (1976)
Traffic: Dear Mr Fantasy (UA, 1967)
Rake: The Art Ensemble Of Rake/Tell-Tale Moog (VHF, 1995)
Porcupine Tree: On The Sunday Of Life (Delerium, 1992)
Family: Entertainment (Reprise, 1969)
Heldon: Electronique Guerilla (Urus, 1974)
Steve Hackett: Voyage Of The Acolyte (Charisma, 1976)
Happy The Man: Happy The Man (Arista, 1977)
U Totem: U Totem (1990)
Between: Dharana (Vertigo, 1974)
Dyzan: Time Machine (Bellaphon, 1973)
Motor Totemist Guild: Infra Dig (Rotary Totem, 1984)
Rick Wakeman: The Six Wives Of Henry VIII (A&M, 1973)
Jethro Tull: Thick As A Brick (1972)
Art Bears: Hopes And Fears (Re, 1978)
Cerberus Shoal: Mr Boy Dog (Temporary Residence, 2002)
The Scene Is Now: Tonight We Ride (1988)
In The Labyrinth: The Garden Of Mysteries (Ad Perpetuam Memoriam, 1997)
Glass: No Stranger To The Skies (Relentless Pursuit, 2000)
Gary Lucas: Skeleton At The Feast (Enemy, 1991)
Fish & Roses: We Are Happy To Serve You (Homestead, 1989)
Buckethead: Bucketheadland (Disk Union, 1992)
Tractor Hips: Tractor Hips (Friction Media, 1996)
Cartoon: Music From Left Field (12-Tone Productions)
Boud Deun: The Stolen Bicycle (Cuneiform, 1998)
V-Effect: Stop Those Songs (Rift, 1984)
Happy Family: Toscco (Cuneiform, 1997)
Samla Mammas Manna: Klossa Knapitatet
Tractor Hips: Tractor Hips (Friction Media, 1996)
Focus: Moving Waves (1972)
Genesis: Selling England By The Pound (Virgin, 1973)
Miriodor: Elastic Juggling (Cuneiform, 1995)
Lounge Lizards: Lounge Lizards` (EG, 1981)
Massacre: Killing Time (Celluloid, 1982)
Fred Frith: Speechless (Ralph, 1981)
Death Organ: Universal Stripsearch (Ad Perpetuam Memoriam, 1997)
Steve Hillage: L (Virgin, 1976)
Slapp Happy: Acnalbasac Noom (Polydor, 1973)
Lindsay Cooper: Gold Diggers (SyncPulse, 1983)
Grits: As The World Grits (Cuneiform, 1993)
Ensemble Nimbus: Scapegoat (Record Heaven, 1998)
Echolyn: Suffocating The Bloom (Bridge, 1992)
Hatfield And The North (Virgin, 1974)
Amboy Dukes: Survival Of The Fittest (1971)
National Health: Of Queues And Cures (Healthy, 1979)
Allan Holdsworth: Metal Fatigue (Enigma, 1983)
Audience: House On The Hill
Curved Air: Phantasmagoria (Warner, 1972)
Shylock: Gialorgues (Musea, 1977)
Gentle Giant: Power And The Glory (1974)
Schicke, Fuhrs and Frohling: Symphonic Pictures (1976)
Agitation Free: Malesh (1972)
Jade Warrior: Waves (Island, 1975)
Dyzan: Time Machine (1973)
Emerson Lake And Palmer: Tarkus (Island, 1972)
Xaal: En Chemin (1991)
White Willow: Ignis Fatuus (Laser's Edge, 1995)
Wallenstein: Blitzkrieg (1972)
Kit Watkins: Labyrinth (Azimuth, 1980)
Anglagard: Epilog (Hybris, 1994)
Brand X: Unorthodox Behaviour (1976)
Flock: Flock (CBS, 1969)
Pangee: Hymnemonde (Pangee, 1995)
Camel: The Snow Goose (1975)
Jon Anderson: Olias Of Sunhillow (Atlantic, 1976)
Dark: Dark (CMP, 1986)
Cassiber: Man Or Monkey (Riskant, 1983)
Bill Bruford: Feels Good To Me (1978)
Present: Certitudes (Cuneiform, 1998)
Philharmonie: Nord (Cuneiform, 1994)
Volapuk: Slang (Cuneiform, 1997)
Egg: The Polite Force (Deram, 1971)
Pavlov's Dog: Pampered Menial
Rush: 2112 (1976)
Marillion: Script For A Jester's Tear (Capitol, 1983)
UK (Polydor, 1978)
Asia (Giffen, 1982)
Premiata Forneria Marconi: Storia di un Minuto (Numero UNo, 1972)
Area: Arbeit Macht Frei (Cramps, 1973)
Banco del mutuo soccorso: Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso (Ricordi, 1972)
Isotope: Illusion (1975)


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

aleazk said:


> I liked the first one, nice harmony. The style of drum playing is not my favorite thing, but I can take it.
> 
> I found the Jimmy Giuffre quite enigmatic and intriguing. I really liked it. Now I'm listeting to his album "Fusion".
> 
> The others were a little too mellow to my taste.


I love that album. If you enjoy that, considering that it seems that you like more abstract pieces try also with Giuffre's Free fall that go even further in that direction. If Fusion reminds of impressionist composers with those harmonic mists, Free Fall is more... Webern (don't take this comparison literally anyway)


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Simon Moon said:


> Universe Zero (Belgium)
> The Thinking Plague (USA)
> Motor Totomest Guild (USA)
> Present (Belgium)
> ...


I became familiar with some of these bands only after 25 years of listening to classical music. The more chamber rock oriented types don't do it for me. I'd rather just listen to pure chamber music by the great composers. On the other hand, I think 5uu's, and Thinking Plague are superb.

The problem with most of these bands is that they can't write a good melody. For instance, I have two CDs by Miriodor, and there isn't a full fledged melody on the whole of 2 albums. After a few listens when I've familiarized myself with all of the clever technical aspects, there's nothing left to come back to. But I can always go back and enjoy a good melody by Bob Drake, Dave Kerman, and Mike Johnson.


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## Katie (Dec 13, 2013)

Simon, I'd just like to report that I honestly tried. 

However, while sampling HOYRY KONE's "The Trooper", my puppies looked at me with rebuke as though I were punishing them, then just flat out ran and hid during Ahvak's "Bherta". Afterward, I started to get spooked in my own home playing Universe Zero's "Jack the Ripper" and next, after retreating into some SKE ("Happy in a Sad Way"), just felt resigned to committing a painful, yet thematically purposeful, suicide. 

Yet, I now feel better armed for an appearance on Jeopardy....Alex, I'll take "Esoteric Post-Modern Neo-Nu Wave Electronic Pop" for $800!  /Kat


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## drvLock (Apr 2, 2014)

I don't think it would be healty if I start something here. I have a vast taste in music, but most of times I'm listening to: heavy metal and electronic music. And I don't mean Iron Maiden for heavy metal, or David Guetta for electronic. 

My taste was (and I believe still is) based on the very underground aspect of music. I tend to like more those über underground metal genres, like Black Metal and Grindcore, and equally underground genres of electronic music, like aggrotech, breakcore and darkstep.

Where I live (Brazil), there's no "scene" for this kind of music, although there are many good bands and electronic music producers.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

'Folk music' is associated with middle-aged people in sandals or clogs, in leather waistcoats and droopy skirts. Morris dancers - Cornish cream teas - village fetes....
It's seen as sad - emasculated - creaky. 
To convert people who think like this, I'd give them a blast of the red-blooded, virile tunes o' glory - Jimmy Shand's Eightsome Reel. 
Live a little!
~~~~~~~~~


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## SimonNZ (Jul 12, 2012)

Ingélou said:


> 'Folk music' is associated with middle-aged people in sandals or clogs, in leather waistcoats and droopy skirts. Morris dancers - Cornish cream teas - village fetes....
> It's seen as sad - emasculated - creaky.
> To convert people who think like this, I'd give them a blast of the red-blooded, virile tunes o' glory - Jimmy Shand's Eightsome Reel.
> Live a little!
> ~~~~~~~~~


On the non-classical listening thread I've recently started going through the New Penguin Book Of English Folk Songs, finding good modernish recordings and providing links. Largely for my own benefit - I'll go back through all of them at some point - but there's plenty there to convert a few who've never paid much attention to Folk.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Oh, thanks, Simon - I love English folk songs* & I have the *old* Penguin book, so I'll be *very* interested to look at that thread. o I didn't know there was one!)

(*Actually, I quite like leather waistcoats & morris dancers too - but *not* sandals!)


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## SimonNZ (Jul 12, 2012)

Here's the ones I've done so far (just titles in order of the book with links - no commentary from me, and after the first post I've been adding the names of the artists I'm linking to):

http://www.talkclassical.com/6106-non-classical-im-currently-316.html#post632992

http://www.talkclassical.com/6106-non-classical-im-currently-317.html#post633649

http://www.talkclassical.com/6106-non-classical-im-currently-317.html#post634156

http://www.talkclassical.com/6106-non-classical-im-currently-318.html#post635193

http://www.talkclassical.com/6106-non-classical-im-currently-320.html#post637506


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## Nightman (Apr 29, 2014)

It seems like a lot of people look down on bluegrass as "hillbilly" music and just automatically reject anything with a banjo, yet there's so much moving music out there, especially these days. Even fusions of bluegrass with jazz, rock and even classical music. Bluegrass does seem to be coming into style, especially in roots movements, but it still needs more recognition as a musical style just as relevant and intricate as any other. Really, I don't think it's possible for ANYONE to react negatively to music such as this:


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