# I feel like an old man, I struggled each night to sleep chronic insomnia ?



## deprofundis (Apr 25, 2014)

Is there a doctor among T.C friendly folks, see I have been having chronic insomnia for years now, like 10 years, my body tired not my cerebral activity, thus said & meaning, my body tired but not my brain or mind, no matter if I feel exhausted, I have a darn hard time getting to sleep.

Here my situation, I have been taking prescribed pills, called Rivotril 3 mg each night plus a hudge bottle of , just in case anxiolytic 0.5 mg, sometimes I take 6 mg or more and it simply dosesn't work. My doctor don't wont to give me sleeping pills or something stronger in anxiolytic, I also happen to have TDA syndrome, I can't focus too lonng and I can't keep in place I walk all the time or move, dammit.

When i fall asleep I only Slept 4 hours maximun and wake up in the middle of the night, and it's even harder to fall asleep, I bet an elephant would be T.K.O whit what I take, bummer.

My doctor didn't cooperated, when I explain the situation, since protocols of medecine, alwaays treat what urgent a bit more, I'm bi-polar, a tad depress, he don't want to treat my adult TDA and insomniac and always insisted or think Im paranoiac and higly depressive , therefore I can't be treated.

Then I ask myself wwhy dont he wont to treat my insomnia and TDA , depression under control and Bipolarity and christ Im not paranoiac, he think this because the first time I was hospitalized It were because of cannabis 10 years ago or more, he an old school doctor that thinks cannabis makes people paranoiac= maniaco-depressive and Bipolar, Im sick of it.

What are doctor for if they dont treat patient illness, my sleep period is sometime fragmented in 2 or 3 TIME. I feel weakens by privation of sleep and I can't stay in one place nor focus too long.

Sometime I walk in the middle of the night and get harrassed by police: Hey you , dont you have a curfew or crap, no you idiot Im trying to get fresh air walk until I feel very very tired, but you can't do this at night.

It's horrible trust me, I feel it's hopeless, my ddoctor wwhant to pidgeonhole me in drug trill seeker, so no sleeping pills no ritalin.During the day I have next to no energy and still walk can't sit still, I explain all this numereous time, he dosen't whant to cooperated, he think he omniscient, he ask me question, when i try to answer bacck hhe dosen't let me answer he respond instead of me.

I think what running my life is TDA annd Insomnia,, but he stock up on is ideas, he the worst doctor I had , and changing doctor very complicated here, you need to filled out a plaint to the ombustman of hospital, there explain e not helping out but make it worst.Sorry for this pessimistic post, but this crap llasted long enough,, last time I had an appointment I did not go he call or the nurse I was so mad I brutally hang up whiteout a words.

For the love of god, Jesus help me. All i wantt is normal sleep not 4 hours or less and energy during the day, to focus, to keep in place , whatch a movie entirely whiteout moving here doeing this or that while watching.He incompetent, in the end.



Or you in the same situation as I , what would you do, I bought a book adult TDA it cost me 30$, he said he would read it he did ain't,, iim pretty sure, I told him my sleep was terrible, anxiolytic dont work for me..Im afraid  , some doctors or real doctors and are okay, they listen to there patient, while other there ideas are all made up, oh man oh man oh man!!!! 

Please moderator OP, dont shredded this post , Im real sad, I feel stock?


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## Tikoo Tuba (Oct 15, 2018)

So , you need balance . To dance when you walk is one thing to do . Jiggly-ji


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

Reply sent in French via PM so as not to violate the ToS...


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## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

Stay *clean*, avoid sugar, alcohol, and other drugs, even caffeine, and you'll sleep better. Maybe try CBD to relax if you can get it but it's not a sure remedy, especially if the other factors remain.

Last night I skipped desert and had my best sleep in a week.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Get outside, walk around, find somebody who needs help. Help them.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

I am an MD. You might have a real problem with benzo addiction. Rivotril (clonazepam) is quite a strong benzo and the additional anxiolytics you have been taking are also benzos. The problem with benzos is that if you take them for a long time, tolerance develops (they stop working) and addiction develops. The benzo addiction is dangerous and very hard to get rid of. If you discontinue the medication, there is a danger of epileptic seisures, massive sleep disturbances, anxiety, inner tension etc. Just google about benzo addiction or benzo detox. You need to taper slowly and if you have been addicted for a long time, the unpleasant symptoms might last weeks or even months. 
Didnt you write in another thread that you have bipolar disorder or something like that? If that is the case, insomnia is one of the symptoms of mania. So you might be getting manic without even knowing it (under mania, you cannot judge it clearly)

So my advice is go to a psychiatrist to help you with the medication. If you do not have BAP, then I would taper benzos and start something like mirtazapine for sleep disorders. If you have bipolar, than some mood stabilizers might be needed. In your case, possibly even a hospitalization with benzo detox and proper setting of medication might be good.

https://americanaddictioncenters.org/benzodiazepine/length-of-withdrawal

and concerning cannabis. It is not a scarecrow that it can induce psychosis. I have seen it many times myself that people after intense cannabis use became paranoid, psychotic, delusional etc. But only certain people with a predisposition to it. It is especially dangerous if you start smoking during puberty, regular daily smoking can lower your IQ about 10 points, cause concentration problems, motivation problems, mood disturbances. It is certainly not a good idea to treat any mental disorder with cannabis use. So you should also do a cannabis detox. The addiction is not physical, but psychological and if you discontinue, you will simply feel bad mentally


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

As an insomniac, I can sympathize with you. I'm awake two to three times a night, even with cutting out sugar and being strapped to a sleep apnea machine. Others have offered advice. All I can add is prayers and sympathy.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Sometimes what helps a man get started in the day can end up being a problem at night.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

My are of specialization is psychoneuroimmunology, ie investigating the interplay between brain, psyche and immune system. The bipolar disorder might be caused by some form of mild autoimmune encephalitis (there is certainly evidence for dysregulated immune system in bipolar disorder). I have been also interested in the effects of nutrition on mental health, though I have never done any research in this area (maybe one of the future grants that I will write will be about this). And it is quite a fascinating area. Many people in todays industrial countries suffer from both, overnutrition but also malnutrition at the same time. Many people are actually malnutrished and suffer various mineral and vitamin defficiencies, which can manifest an mental health problems among other things. Some things that you might try are

magnesium 
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6212970/

NAC
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27766914

vitamins D, A, E, K2
https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/abcs-of-nutrition/vitamin-a-saga/
https://www.westonaprice.org/health...-a-sixty-two-year-old-mystery-finally-solved/
https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/abcs-of-nutrition/update-on-vitamins-a-and-d/

for example the increase in autism might be caused by vitamin D defficiency (people increasingly working indoors, using sunscreens etc).

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/7-common-nutrient-deficiencies#section7

so I would also start experimenting with changing your diet and supplementing some of this stuff. But bipolar is quite a severe disorder and you should not treat it at home, but you should be supervised by a psychiatrist


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

If I read your post correctly, your depression and bipolar is under control, but your immediate problem is insomnia and ADD/ADHD (attention deficit, hyperactivity disorder). Insomnia is something that can impact our feeling of well-being in a major way and lack of sleep, in and of itself, makes it difficult to reason or find perspective, not to mention that it can cause depression.

This is a tricky combination of disorders and symptoms to treat, but they are treatable in the right hands. I hope your physician is a psychiatrist because this is beyond the scope of a general doctor. If it is a psychiatrist, then your loss of confidence in his treatment would indicate that it is time to change doctors. I understand the difficulty in accessing/changing specialists in Quebec, but it should be more possible in the Montreal area. Perhaps your parents or a trusted relative can help. In my experience, in the Canadian health system, the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

IMO, getting to the right specialist is most important. Over the counter supplements or withdrawal of benzodiazepines should only be considered (if necessary at all) under the direction of a specialist.

I hope you eventually feel better.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

if you were in Czech Republic, I would recommend a hospitalization for you, because the combination of problems that you have is difficult. 

you have bipolar disorder, you have ADHD, you have sleep disorder, you have (probably) a benzo addiction, and you are using cannabis. A good medicament to treat sleep disorders that does not cause addiction is for example mirtazapine (an antidepressant), but you cannot give it to a bipolar patient, because it could provoke mania. Similarly, Ritalin is used to treat ADHD, but it is basically an amphetamine, which again can cause sleep disorders and provoke psychosis, and if you have any history of paranoia (which is psychosis), no sane doctor would give you Ritalin. So the combination of problems is really complicated in your case. This is not only beyond the scope of a general practitioner, but also of an ambulant treatment. In Czech Republic, you would be hospitalized to find the proper medication for you under supervision. But I am not familiar with the Canadian system (if you live in Canada). The most severe disorder of those mentioned is the bipolar disorder and it should be adressed with a mood stabilizer. One possible way to help you might be to give you some antipsychotic at night, for example olanzapine, because it not only treats the bipolar disorder, but also helps with sleep.

and the restlessness that you describe. It could be restless legs syndrome or akathisia or a symptom of the prolonged benzo usage. Again, it should be diagnosed properly and then you can treat it. But it cannot be done over the internet here.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

I can almost guarantee that in Canada and probably, the UK, this wouldn’t be handled by hospitalization, but that’s not to say that under ideal circumstance treatment in a specialized center wouldn’t be a good idea. It’s just the reality of these health systems.

Fwiw, your suggestion of mirtazapine (Remeron in the U.S.) is a good one. Also, gabapentin (Neurontin) has been found useful for insomnia in these multiple-disorder situations. I don’t ordinarily mention specific drugs for disorders on non-medical forums, but just the fact that possibilities such as these are apparently not being used make me doubt that an experienced psychiatrist is involved in this situation.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

DaveM said:


> I can almost guarantee that in Canada and probably, the UK, this wouldn't be handled by hospitalization, but that's not to say that under ideal circumstance treatment in a specialized center wouldn't be a good idea. It's just the reality of these health systems.
> 
> Fwiw, your suggestion of mirtazapine (Remeron in the U.S.) is a good one. Also, gabapentin (Neurontin) has been found useful for insomnia in these multiple-disorder situations. I don't ordinarily mention specific drugs for disorders on non-medical forums, but just the fact that possibilities such as these are apparently not being used make me doubt that an experienced psychiatrist is involved in this situation.


mirtazapin is a good choice for sleep disorders, though not in a bipolar patient, because it could trigger mania. Gabapentin is a mood stabilizer, though in the Czech Republic it is used mainly by neurologists as an anticonvulsant and to treat chronic neuropatic pain etc. The psychiatrists prefer pregabalin (Lyrica) or lamotrigin (Lamictal) or valproat.

the US has been hit hard by this pseudoscientific anti-psychiatry movement, which led to massive deinstitutionalisation (closure of psychiatric hospitals), so even severe problems have to be treated in an outpatient setting.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Jacck said:


> mirtazapin is a good choice for sleep disorders, though not in a bipolar patient, because it could trigger mania. Gabapentin is a mood stabilizer, though in the Czech Republic it is used mainly by neurologists as an anticonvulsant and to treat chronic neuropatic pain etc. The psychiatrists prefer pregabalin (Lyrica) or lamotrigin (Lamictal) or valproat.
> 
> the US has been hit hard by this pseudoscientific anti-psychiatry movement, which led to massive deinstitutionalisation (closure of psychiatric hospitals), so even severe problems have to be treated in an outpatient setting.


A review of previous studies published in 2015 found that drugs such as mirtazapine and Trazodone (another Rx used for insomnia in these situations) can be used safely with BP disorder in the lower doses used for sleep and likely are safe even at antidepressant doses in the presence of a mood stabilizer. Plus the question as to whether this is BP 1 or 2 is important.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Jacck said:


> I am an MD. You might have a real problem with benzo addiction. Rivotril (clonazepam) is quite a strong benzo and the additional anxiolytics you have been taking are also benzos. The problem with benzos is that if you take them for a long time, tolerance develops (they stop working) and addiction develops. The benzo addiction is dangerous and very hard to get rid of. If you discontinue the medication, there is a danger of epileptic seisures, massive sleep disturbances, anxiety, inner tension etc. Just google about benzo addiction or benzo detox. You need to taper slowly and if you have been addicted for a long time, the unpleasant symptoms might last weeks or even months.
> Didnt you write in another thread that you have bipolar disorder or something like that? If that is the case, insomnia is one of the symptoms of mania. So you might be getting manic without even knowing it (under mania, you cannot judge it clearly)
> 
> So my advice is go to a psychiatrist to help you with the medication. If you do not have BAP, then I would taper benzos and start something like mirtazapine for sleep disorders. If you have bipolar, than some mood stabilizers might be needed. In your case, possibly even a hospitalization with benzo detox and proper setting of medication might be good.
> ...


I am a Primary Care Doctor and second this 
OST. I would agree with Mirtazepine. And just because your Doctor is not giving you what you think you need means he is incompetent. He isn't a Drug Dealer.


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## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

If anyone can give me even an idea of what this could be I would eternally greatful.

Presently I can go days without sleep. Several times I have gone 3 nights without sleep. Typically, though it's 2 nights. I can be dreadfully tired but my brain wont turn off. No matter what I've tried nothing's worked.

Here is a little backdrop. When I was a youngster (maybe 8 or 9 years old) I would go to friends house to spend the night or they would come to mine. They would always complain that I wanted to "sleep all day". They were wondering, as I was, what was wrong that I had to sleep so much.

Several years ago I remembered this. I also remembered that the night before they would go to sleep and I would just lay there. It probably took me an hour to go to sleep. Because I was so young, I couldn't connect the dots that my sleeping late was caued by my inability to get to sleep in a timely manner the night before.

Around 1998 I had 3 sleep studies done. In all three attempts I didn't go to sleep. After the 3rd try, the doctor looked at the strip that recorded my sleep. He looked at me with a look that resembled horror and told me that I might never sleep like a normal person. What was I to think? I decided that I would be positive and decided that he could be wrong. At this time I had not remembered my boyhood experiences.

Over the years it has gotten progressively worse. So far this year there may have been 2 nights where I got a straight 7 hours of sleep. If I am able to go to sleep it's in bits and pieces. 

I looked up the diagnostic cods for insomnia and none of those codes even came close to what I have. I have tried different medicines like ambien but it's like taking aspirin. I feel no affect whatsoever. Any advice would be appreciated.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

hard to say, it looks atypical. You already were at some sleep specialist or in a sleep lab (polysomnography) and they found nothing? 
there are many causes that a doctor who knows your history and can examine you must rule out
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insomnia#Causes
it can be psychological or biological causes. The increased sleepiness in your childhood reminds of narcolepsy or something similar. And narcolepsy is an autoimmune disorder where the immune system targets the orexin producing neurons. Purely hypothetically, in your childhood, you could have had such an inflammation that somehow disturbed the orexin system your brain for life. But that is all pure speculation.

basically you need to rule known biological causes such as sleep apnoea, restless legs syndrom, heart problems, hormonal problems with thyroid, adrenal glands etc..
and if nothing is found, I would simply try out one medicament after another to find one that works. You can surely try melatonin (it is without prescription). And then all the other classes of sleeping pills such as benzodiazepines, trazodon, mirtazapin, melperone, antihistamines etc. Unfortunately, it is often a trial and error to find out what works.


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## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

In English class I submitted a story about a world where nobody sleeps  I'm no Jose Saramago but teacher liked it.

I've had so many sleep disorders I feel lucky when I actually sleep well.


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## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

Jacck said:


> hard to say, it looks atypical. You already were at some sleep specialist or in a sleep lab (polysomnography) and they found nothing?
> there are many causes that a doctor who knows your history and can examine you must rule out
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insomnia#Causes
> it can be psychological or biological causes. The increased sleepiness in your childhood reminds of narcolepsy or something similar. And narcolepsy is an autoimmune disorder where the immune system targets the orexin producing neurons. Purely hypothetically, in your childhood, you could have had such an inflammation that somehow disturbed the orexin system your brain for life. But that is all pure speculation.
> ...


Thank you so much for giving me other things to research. I was adopted at 10 days old and have known no of my blood relatives so I couldn't go back and see if perhaps something that was passed down to me. I thought maybe since it started in childhood. But thank you for this information.

Additional: I forgot to answer your question. It was called a sleep center and they put some sort of sensors on my head to record my brain patterns. The sleep doctor didn't say what it was. I don't know whether he knew or not but I don't think he did because he didn't give me a diagnosis. He just told me that I may never sleep like a normal person and then I left.


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2019)

haydnguy said:


> Thank you so much for giving me other things to research. I was adopted at 10 days old and have known no of my blood relatives so I couldn't go back and see if perhaps something that was passed down to me. I thought maybe since it started in childhood. But thank you for this information.
> 
> Additional: I forgot to answer your question. It was called a sleep center and they put some sort of sensors on my head to record my brain patterns. The sleep doctor didn't say what it was. I don't know whether he knew or not but I don't think he did because he didn't give me a diagnosis. He just told me that I may never sleep like a normal person and then I left.


If you want to find your biological parents you probably can. You take one of the genetic tests like "twenty three and me" and you can transfer the data to various web sites that compares your data with other people who have submitted their data and spits out a list of relatives. You will find out that person A is your second cousin, person B is your great uncle, person C is your third cousin, person D is your second cousin etc. Then you look for these people on genealogy sites and by a process of elimination deduce who your parents were. I've not done it, so I can't comment on how difficult the genealogy search is.

The "doctor" you describe (if he was in fact a doctor) sounds unprofessional and inhumane, and to tell you what he did without a diagnosis, likely incompetent.

I sincerely hope you find a solution to your sleep problems.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Haydnguy, if I understood your post correctly, your last sleep study was in 1998. With as serious a sleep situation as yours, I think it’s time for another one. In 21 years, most areas of medicine have made great strides. Perhaps, your doctor can assist in finding a good center.


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## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

Baron Scarpia said:


> If you want to find your biological parents you probably can. You take one of the genetic tests like "twenty three and me" and you can transfer the data to various web sites that compares your data with other people who have submitted their data and spits out a list of relatives. You will find out that person A is your second cousin, person B is your great uncle, person C is your third cousin, person D is your second cousin etc. Then you look for these people on genealogy sites and by a process of elimination deduce who your parents were. I've not done it, so I can't comment on how difficult the genealogy search is.
> 
> The "doctor" you describe (if he was in fact a doctor) sounds unprofessional and inhumane, and to tell you what he did without a diagnosis, likely incompetent.
> 
> I sincerely hope you find a solution to your sleep problems.


Thank you, Baron Scarpia. The sleep center was in a decent hospital. Not anywhere near the best but decent. Thank you for that information too. I'll have to think about it. Will see how I feel after a few days.


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## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

DaveM said:


> Haydnguy, if I understood your post correctly, your last sleep study was in 1998. With as serious a sleep situation as yours, I think it's time for another one. In 21 years, most areas of medicine have made great strides. Perhaps, your doctor can assist in finding a good center.


Thanks DaveM. I'm supposed to go see my doctor for my annual physical next week and I'll ask him about it. He's very helpful so he may have a suggestion of a good sleep clinic somewhere.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

haydnguy said:


> Thanks DaveM. I'm supposed to go see my doctor for my annual physical next week and I'll ask him about it. He's very helpful so he may have a suggestion of a good sleep clinic somewhere.


*This place* has some *interesting technology* but I don't know if they have nationwide locations. I went through their sessions a couple years ago when I was experiencing insomnia, something I normally never had to deal with. Eventually my sleep issues left me when a particular stress factor was removed from my life. But the Brain Life Center did help, but as long as that stress factor was present I would have to go back periodically for "tune ups."


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## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

Thanks Fritz. That looks outstanding. I will talk with my wife and see if it might be a shot to call them for their recommendations. That looks exactly what I've needed. They may be able to reference another spot. But it would definitely be an opportunity to try. :tiphat:


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

I can tell you what worked for me.

Lost 50 lbs over 2 years with with keto diet.

No alcohol. 

Use memory foam mattress and pillow. 

Clear my mind and relax body completely when laying down. 

Stopped following or participating in any political, religious or stressful conversation or activity. Distance myself from crazy people and all of their crazy crisis ridden lives. That's hard because it's everywhere around including family, but I don't participate. 

Kick back and Relax, Man!


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

this is according to neuroscientists the most pleasant music in the world
https://www.inc.com/melanie-curtin/...song-reduces-anxiety-by-up-to-65-percent.html
and it might help you sleep


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

haydnguy said:


> If anyone can give me even an idea of what this could be I would eternally greatful.
> 
> Presently I can go days without sleep. Several times I have gone 3 nights without sleep. Typically, though it's 2 nights. I can be dreadfully tired but my brain wont turn off. No matter what I've tried nothing's worked.
> 
> ...


Maybe this won't help, but take a look at this:

http://apjcn.nhri.org.tw/server/APJCN/20/2/169.pdf

I'm trying this out... eating kiwifruit before bed every night to improve sleep (well, mainly for the nutritional value and taste, but also to improve sleep)... I'll let you know how it goes.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Maybe this won't help, but take a look at this:
> 
> http://apjcn.nhri.org.tw/server/APJCN/20/2/169.pdf
> 
> I'm trying this out... eating kiwifruit before bed every night to improve sleep (well, mainly for the nutritional value and taste, but also to improve sleep)... I'll let you know how it goes.


That study was funded by Zestri International Ltd, the major world producer of Kiwi fruit, which is of course, the source of the fruit used in the study. It is very limited and, in the absence of double-blind testing and given the limited number of subjects and time of the study, the conclusions are likewise very limited.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

DaveM said:


> That study was funded by Zestri International Ltd, the major world producer of Kiwi fruit, which is of course, the source of the fruit used in the study. It is very limited and, in the absence of double-blind testing and given the limited number of subjects and time of the study, the conclusions are likewise very limited.


All fair and valid points. I'm still gonna eat kiwis though.


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