# Chopin's Piano Concertos No 1 & 2



## OlivierM

Hello, I'm Olivier, and I'm a romanticchambermusicholic.
Today, I'm going to talk about Chopin's Piano Concertos No 1 & 2.
Those were originally written for small chamber ensembles (Piano and String Quintet).

So far, I have only been able to find four recordings of these majestic pieces.

The first one, on a RCA disc, is for the No 1, by Jean-Marc Luisada and the Talich Quartet. It is followed on the disc by a Piano Quintet by Dvorak, which is interesting but clearly not on the same level, for me. Luisada, in my opinion, gave the most heart-touching interpreting of this piece.

The second one (or first one ex-aequo), is for the No 1 & 2, on MDG, by the Ensemble Concertant Frankfurt & Gianluca Luisi. Another wonderfully subtle piano rendition.

Third but not of any lesser interest, Naum Starkman & State Glinka Quartet's version, on Vista Vera. No 1 & No 2 here, a very nice approach, still wonderfully fluid and crystal clear, but with a sadly less good strings rendition. It's a transcription, as the string ensemble is a Quartet, but Naum Starkman is such an amazing pianist, it's hard not to put it first ex-aequo as well.

The least interesting version is by Tamami Honma & Vilnius String Quartet, on Somm. This one lacks feelings, in my opinion. Still nice to have, as these pieces haven't been given so many recordings, but the one I'd say "you can pass it" if you asked me.

So now the question. Does anyone know any other version I might consider finding ?

Thanks in advance, and for those who didn't know these chamber versions, give them a go, I think they are far better than the versions for orchestra (even if I would recommend Nikolai Lugansky and the Sinfonia Varsovia's 2013 recording, if submitted to any type of coertion).


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## Varick

I'm not a HIP fan, so for me the acme of these pieces are still the ones by Rubinstein on RCA.

V


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## Animato

Since nobody replied to this thread since a couple of days, I try to express some thoughts about this issue: I know Chopin’s piano concertos very well, I nearly know them by heart – unfortunately my piano skills are not good enough to play these conctertos. (Currently, I try to play the Schumann concerto.) I did not know about the chamber versions of these concertos. I presume these versions were intended as a intermediate step to the orchestral versions, since Chopin was not very familiar with composing orchestral scores (his piano concertos being his only orchestral works, and it is open for research, if some contemporary has been helping him with the score). I do not think, that the score for string quartett may match the elaborate and voluminous score for the piano. The piano concertos by Chopin are not typical concertos in a certain sense. They are solo piano works with orchestral background, disregarding the long introduction of each concerto. There is no real “dialogue” between orchestra and piano. But since a lot of other piano-virtuosi composed concertos for piano AND orchestra, Chopin had to do it as well. He was in his early twenties when he composed them. But they are extraordinary and a challenge for every pianist.


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## OlivierM

Thank you for your answers!

Animato, I think you should lend an ear to at least the Luisada version. I discovered these pieces through the "regular" channel, the orchestral versions, but as soon as I heard the chamber versions, I totally gave up the orchestral ones.
In my opinion, Chopin didn't have time to explore orchestral music a lot (and a few later transcriptions by artists suggest that he didn't even have sufficient time to explore chamber music either, as there is a duo version of the Walz, Op 69 that is strikingly beautiful), but the essence of the two concertos, for me, is clearly a chamber one.

I found it on youtube by the way :
I.1 



I.2 



II 



III 




On a side note, I recently bought another version, by the Yggdrasil Quartet and Fumiko Shiraga, on Bis Records, but it is anecdotical, compared to the Luisada, Luisi and Starkman versions.


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## hpowders

Varick said:


> I'm not a HIP fan, so for me the acme of these pieces are still the ones by Rubinstein on RCA.
> 
> V


Yeah. I second that performance conducted by Skrowaczewski. Should have changed his name to Smith.


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## bharbeke

You might try Martha Argerich's version of PC No. 1 with Ortner and the Vienna KammerOrchester. It blew me away when I first heard it.


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## OlivierM

Would anyone be kind enough to tell me what HIP stands for ?

I have the version Martha Argerich is playing with the Montréal SO & Dutoit, and I cannot say I'm a huge fan. For me, her play, which is a bit too hammered and too quick on occasions, doesn't suit this piece really well. I prefer her far more for Beethoven's Concerto No 1 (or, Chopin-wise, her version of the cello sonata with Rostropovich).
Anyway, with such a delicate piano partition, I think the chamber versions provide the intimacy which is needed. The orchester, with its huge power, is just too much in contrast with the piano, and it has little to do with the virtuosity of the pianist, in that particular context.


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## JACE

HIP = Historically informed performance

wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historically_informed_performance


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## Animato

OlivierM said:


> Thank you for your answers!
> 
> Animato, I think you should lend an ear to at least the Luisada version. I discovered these pieces through the "regular" channel, the orchestral versions, but as soon as I heard the chamber versions, I totally gave up the orchestral ones.
> In my opinion, Chopin didn't have time to explore orchestral music a lot (and a few later transcriptions by artists suggest that he didn't even have sufficient time to explore chamber music either, as there is a duo version of the Walz, Op 69 that is strikingly beautiful), but the essence of the two concertos, for me, is clearly a chamber one.
> 
> On a side note, I recently bought another version, by the Yggdrasil Quartet and Fumiko Shiraga, on Bis Records, but it is anecdotical, compared to the Luisada, Luisi and Starkman versions.


Hi OlivierM,

unfortunately I'm not able to listen to your youtube samples here in Germany. Nevertheless thank you for your recommendations! Actually, if you substitue "chamber" with "salon" I aggree with you. I mean, you don't need an orchestra to play Chopin's piano concertos at all. You can play them as solo piano works. Do you know Nikolai Demidenko ? He played some of the one-movement-works for piano and orchestra (variations on "la ci darem la mano" and "Andante spianato and grande polonaise") only for piano solo and to my opinion he succeeds in an excellent way !


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## Pugg

Frans Brüggen recorded this two with different pianist fore the Frederick Chopin Institute label.
You can find them on Presto for more information.(Don't know if it's allowed to copy / past)


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## Guest

I'll put in another voice for the Rubinstein Living Stereo recording. Rubinstein, for me, is hard to beat in the Chopin repertoire.


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## Pugg

DrMike said:


> I'll put in another voice for the Rubinstein Living Stereo recording. Rubinstein, for me, is hard to beat in the Chopin repertoire.


Van Cliburn for me any day :tiphat:


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## hpowders

Yes the Rubinstein/RCA is the best I've ever heard.


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## Varick

OlivierM said:


> Would anyone be kind enough to tell me what HIP stands for ?
> 
> I have the version Martha Argerich is playing with the Montréal SO & Dutoit, and I cannot say I'm a huge fan. For me, her play, which is a bit too hammered and too quick on occasions, doesn't suit this piece really well. I prefer her far more for Beethoven's Concerto No 1 (or, Chopin-wise, her version of the cello sonata with Rostropovich).
> Anyway, with such a delicate piano partition, I think the chamber versions provide the intimacy which is needed. The orchester, with its huge power, is just too much in contrast with the piano, and it has little to do with the virtuosity of the pianist, in that particular context.


I would agree that Martha's interpretations of Chopin can be a bit choppy (see what I did there?) at times. Although I believe she excels at the Romantic and 20th Century eras, Chopin's sensibilities can be a bit too delicate for her blazing and impassioned approach to almost everything she plays. She certainly is not my go-to for Chopin, although I do not hate her Chopin either.

I must say in all due respect, listening to those chamber versions of Freddy's #1 above, the accompaniment leaves me a bit dry and bored. It works a bit better with the second movement, but alas, still incomplete. I expected a little less weight by leaning out the ensemble, I did not expect however, a box feathers. Not my cup of tea.:tiphat:

V


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## PeterF

Oliver, your post stimulated me to get a copy of the Luisada CD. Though I am a big fan of the Rubinstein recordings of the Chopin concertos, I must admit that the Luisada version of Concerto No.1 is highly appealing. The string quintet in place of the orchestra allows for much greater clarity among all of the musicians. 
I don't see this as a replacement for the version with a full orchestra, but rather as a very nice alternative.
Having both the version with orchestra AND the version with a string quintet allows for more than one way to gain pleasure from this wonderful music.


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## OlivierM

I'm very glad I could be of help.

There is also a wonderful transcription of the Romanza (from Piano Concerto No 1 In E Minor, Op 11) played by Marc-André Hamelin on his Live At Wigmore Hall cd, which is simply breath-taking.


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## WJM

I love Chopin's concertos, definitely among my favorites. 

Recordings - Rubinstein & Skrowaczewski (1961), a magnificent recording of Op. 11. For Op. 21 I'd go with one of Rubinstein's live recordings - with Rowicki (1960) or Giulini (1961). 

Other recordings I can think about right now I'd reccomend are Krystian Zimerman & Polish Festival Orchestra, Rafał Blechacz - DG. There also are quite interesting recordings of Chopin concertos performed on solo piano played by Yuko Kawai (both concertos) and by Dina Yoffe (Op. 21 - HIP on 1848 Pleyel).


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## hpowders

Just a dumb question: Why is a discussion of Chopin's piano concertos listed under "Solo & Chamber Music"?


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## OlivierM

The initial purpose of this topic was to discuss the original chamber versions of these pieces.


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