# I feel bad because I don't love ______________ more.



## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

This thread is inspired by seattleoperafan's thread about feeling bad for not loving Maria Callas more. This time, you choose the singer. Maybe you will find out why you don't like the singer, or maybe you will find that you actually do like the singer, or maybe you just can't hold in your opinion anymore. I may perhaps have some ideas of whom to post, but I am worried. So I will wait to see what you all post. :lol:


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

This is going to be a blood bath.


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## mrdoc (Jan 3, 2020)

I dont feel bad for not caring one way or the other about maria whats her name.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I don't feel bad if I don't 'love' any performer any more. I am the consumer and I pay for what I watch and listen to. So why should I pay for someone I don't like? I couldn't care less who it is.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

There are some famous singers whom I don't like for some reason, even if I can appreciate they are good singers and some whose standing I can't understand at all.

Either way, I don't much like these negative threads which encourage people to criticise and even villify performers whom others might feel really strongly about. I don't think it serves any purpose. I felt the same about the "I feel bad because I don't like Callas more" thread and vowed not to contribute but somehow got drawn in against my better judgement. I hope that doesn't happen here.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

DavidA said:


> I don't feel bad if I don't 'love' any performer any more. I am the consumer and I pay for what I watch and listen to. So why should I pay for someone I don't like? I couldn't care less who it is.


But what if they sell houses out around the world and various (qualified) musicians say they are wonderful?

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I think this is an interesting thread as it acknowledges that there are some singers that we recognise as being great singers, but there is something about their voices that personally turns us off. For me it's Nilsson and Flagstad that I wish I liked more. Whilst their voices were exceptional their nordic diction sounds as if they aren't singing on the vowel to my ear. It's as if they are singing falsetto and I am missing darker tones as part of mix of sound.

N.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Conte said:


> But what if they sell houses out around the world and various (qualified) musicians say they are wonderful?
> 
> N.


Well, I don't have to go do I? Maybe you feel obliged to go but I don't! I mean,when that Adams opera was selling out at the Met I didn't feel obliged to go as I can't stand his music.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

DavidA said:


> Well, I don't have to go do I? Maybe you feel obliged to go but I don't! I mean,when that Adams opera was selling out at the Met I didn't feel obliged to go as I can't stand his music.


No, I don't feel obliged to go. However, I do give credit where credit is due and if I find the majority of people like a singer that I don't, I don't insist that I am right and those other people are wrong. Furthermore I wouldn't seek out a review from a sole critic that agrees with me about that singer and then use it as some sort of proof that I must be right. And even furthermore I wouldn't also use the fact that singers I like are popular to be proof that I am somehow 'right' to like them when it suits.

N.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Conte said:


> No, I don't feel obliged to go. However, I do give credit where credit is due and if I find the majority of people like a singer that I don't, I don't insist that I am right and those other people are wrong. Furthermore I wouldn't seek out a review from a sole critic that agrees with me about that singer and then use it as some sort of proof that I must be right. And even furthermore I wouldn't also use the fact that singers I like are popular to be proof that I am somehow 'right' to like them when it suits.
> 
> N.


I don't insist these people are wrong either. I've just been listening to Ades opera 'The Tempest' which had rave reviews and sadly I don't like the music in spite of the brilliant staging. I'm not saying other folks are wrong - just it is not my cup of tea. I actually feel disappointed I don't like it but there it is. Your problem is that you are now doing the very thing you are accusing me of doing and saying I am wrong not to like certain works or singers. 
I would like to know when I have sought out a 'sole' review to prove a point? I may have quoted a review but they were not 'sole' reviews. There were others I could have quoted. I'm just doing the opposite now and you're saying I'm still wrong. You are the one who is now trying to score points not me. Just give it a rest, mate, and enjoy the music instead of trying to score points. Would it make you feel better if I give you 10/10?. 
All the point I'm making is that I don't have to feel bad because I don't like someone as a performer or someone's music as I'm the consumer. If you think I should then give reasons. That is the point we're discussing. I'd appreciate it if you could stick to that point rather than going off at tangents.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

I feel bad because I don't love _______Opera_______ more.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I feel bad because I have 8 arias sets of Cecilia Bartoli and have been forcing myself to listen to them. Am about half way through and hoping I don't puke before I am done. :lol:

Anybody want them? I can make a good offer.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Don't care for Kirsten Flagstad. Find her too stately. And as for her effortless intonation, IMO with Wagner I enjoy the prospect of singers being pushed to their limits, and pushing beyond. It should sound like a struggle, not effortless. To that end I will always prefer singers like Max Lorenz and Gwyneth Jones who go all-out rather than people like Flagstad and Melchior who "keep some in reserve".

As far as composers are concerned I feel also like I should like Verdi more, but he is my least favorite of the Italians. I prefer Bellini, Donizetti, Rossini, Puccini, Monteverdi, all the ones I have heard so far I see the "spark" that makes each one of them special. For me and Verdi, there is no spark.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

SixFootScowl said:


> I feel bad because I have 8 arias sets of Cecilia Bartoli and have been forcing myself to listen to them. Am about half way through and hoping I don't puke before I am done. :lol:
> 
> Anybody want them? I can make a good offer.


Nah, be happy to keep them... Some day you will sell them at a great price!


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

Rogerx said:


> This is going to be a blood bath.


Who's going to start the actual blood bath? :devil:


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

VitellioScarpia said:


> Who's going to start the actual blood bath? :devil:


My point is already proven :cheers:


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I don't quite get the high regard that was shown to Renata Scotto at the Met in her era. She had a devoted following. Some think she knew where the bodies were buried which is why she got so much work at the Met. She had a beautiful voice with great technique at the start of her career, but when I would hear live broadcasts with her in them when I had Sirius Met Opera I often thought it was such an ugly voice. I understand it was because she took on parts too big for her like Norma. I understand she was an exciting live performer. She sort of worked for Lady Macbeth as a beautiful voice is not necessarily what you want for that twisted part.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

SixFootScowl said:


> I feel bad because I have 8 arias sets of Cecilia Bartoli and have been forcing myself to listen to them. Am about half way through and hoping I don't puke before I am done. :lol:
> 
> Anybody want them? I can make a good offer.


I probably already have them! There is a place for Bartoli and I like her early albums quite a lot, however she is now churning out one after another of 'Baroque arias you don't know' and I have lost interest. I would much rather listen to her disc of Vivaldi arias rather than one of his operas complete. On the other hand there are other mezzos I much prefer in all the repertoire she sung (she was an excellent Cherubino, though).

N.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

As far as singers go I don’t really have any but the main thing that jumped into my head when I saw the thread title was Mozart’s operas. I struggle to see the depths of profundity that others see in them.


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau for me. 

I know at some level I just don't "get" him despite acknowledging his virtues. I recognise his skill and intelligence without actually enjoying listening to his sound.

It's a bit of a bummer since his records are so plentiful, eclectic, well produced and obviously give other listeners a lot of joy.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Rogerx said:


> My point is already proven :cheers:


One man's bloodbath is another man's banter between 'mates'.

N.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Revitalized Classics said:


> Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau for me.
> 
> I know at some level I just don't "get" him despite acknowledging his virtues. I recognise his skill and intelligence without actually enjoying listening to his sound.
> 
> It's a bit of a bummer since his records are so plentiful, eclectic, well produced and obviously give other listeners a lot of joy.


Yup, exactly what I should have said originally. I find his tone highly irritating though I recognize his mastery of lieder interpretation.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

Revitalized Classics said:


> Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau for me.
> 
> I know at some level I just don't "get" him despite acknowledging his virtues. I recognise his skill and intelligence without actually enjoying listening to his sound.
> 
> It's a bit of a bummer since his records are so plentiful, eclectic, well produced and obviously give other listeners a lot of joy.


I generally don't like him much in opera roles (except for Rodrigo, he worked nicely for that). And for various emo German Lieder, I prefer tenors like Bostridge.

I also have a deep-seated dislike for Ruggero Raimondi. He just creeps me out. He's also the only weak link in that otherwise fantastic Giulini Don Carlo recording. I feel like he sang a lot of roles that weren't good for his voice.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Sieglinde said:


> I also have a deep-seated dislike for Ruggero Raimondi. He just creeps me out. He's also the only weak link in that otherwise fantastic Giulini Don Carlo recording. I feel like he sang a lot of roles that weren't good for his voice.


Interesting opinion. I'm not a particular Raimondi fan, but I quite like him and don't find anything undesirable about him.

Which roles do you think he wasn't suited for?

N.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Get ready with the rotten tomatoes:
Licia Albanese- While I do recognize her wonderful talent for immersing herself into the character, which is commendable, she seems to sound to me like a little old lady.
Cecilia Bartoli - Recognizing her fine voice and talents, it so annoys me when she aspirates that I actually cannot bear to listen to her
Zinka Milanov- She has a grating, silver sound that annoys me, but I do give her mega points for her ability to execute perfect diminuendos.
That's enough for now. (running for cover...)


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

nina foresti said:


> Get ready with the rotten tomatoes:
> Licia Albanese- While I do recognize her wonderful talent for immersing herself into the character, which is commendable, she seems to sound to me like a little old lady.
> Cecilia Bartoli - Recognizing her fine voice and talents, it so annoys me when she aspirates that I actually cannot bear to listen to her
> Zinka Milanov- She has a grating, silver sound that annoys me, but I do give her mega points for her ability to execute perfect diminuendos.
> That's enough for now. (running for cover...)


I don't think anyone has to run for cover in this thread. It's not about the singers you think are overrated or just can't stand, it's really about who you recognise as being great, but you don't personally like. I recognise Milanov's technique, but I find her passionless (she reminds me somewhat of Tebaldi, wonderful emission of sounds, but with very little soul). I like Bartoli but in small doses and I've never been taken by Albanese (not that I dislike her either).

N.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

nina foresti said:


> Licia Albanese- While I do recognize her wonderful talent for immersing herself into the character, which is commendable, she seems to sound to me like a little old lady.


For what it's worth, I see your point on this one.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

Bass roles in general. How can the same man sing Scarpia and King Philip? He lacks that real dark bass sound. Higher-lying roles work better, but Philip really needs the depth.

Tbh I have the same vocal problem with José van Dam's King Philip. He's a bit underpowered for it. I'm not sure why he kept singing true bass roles. The other day I listened to the classic Abbado Boccanegra where he's Paolo and not only did he sound beautiful, he sang with such clarity and comfort!


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Sieglinde said:


> Bass roles in general. How casn the same man sing Scarpia and King Philip? He lacks that real dark bass sound. Higher-lying roles work better, but Philip really needs the depth.!


They can't. Scarpia is not a Bass. He is a Baritone. As for King Philippe he is either a Bass or a Bass-baritone.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

nina foresti said:


> They can't. Scarpia is not a Bass. He is a Baritone. As for King Philippe he is either a Bass or a Bass-baritone.


There is no Bass-baritone in the Italian voice system (although the opera is arguably a French one). However I agree and I did think it odd that Raimondi did Scarpia. I'm going to have to get my recordings out and give them a listen. I do like Van Dam though and he has always struck me as being a bass, a lyric bass, but a bass none the less.

N.


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

nina foresti said:


> Get ready with the rotten tomatoes:
> Licia Albanese- While I do recognize her wonderful talent for immersing herself into the character, which is commendable, she seems to sound to me like a little old lady.
> Cecilia Bartoli - Recognizing her fine voice and talents, it so annoys me when she aspirates that I actually cannot bear to listen to her
> Zinka Milanov- She has a grating, silver sound that annoys me, but I do give her mega points for her ability to execute perfect diminuendos.
> That's enough for now. (running for cover...)


I didn't like Licia Albanese's sound either, particularly in the Manon Lescaut with Bjorling.

I came around...marginally...when I heard the recording of La Boheme with Giuseppe di Stefano from New Orleans in 1959 which might be her only record in stereo (I'm not sure)? By then she was about 50 but the sound quality is a little more flattering. I kind of wondered if her voice just didn't record well.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

nina foresti said:


> They can't. Scarpia is not a Bass. He is a Baritone. As for King Philippe he is either a Bass or a Bass-baritone.


Sam Ramey, James Morris, Eric Owens did among others. Ramey did so pretty convincingly, but his was a unique voice


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

The Conte said:


> There is no Bass-baritone in the Italian voice system (although the opera is arguably a French one). However I agree and I did think it odd that Raimondi did Scarpia. I'm going to have to get my recordings out and give them a listen. I do like Van Dam though and he has always struck me as being a bass, a lyric bass, but a bass none the less.
> 
> N.


I think Van Dam was a baritone!


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Bonetan said:


> I think Van Dam was a baritone!


He was a bass-baritone so I guess it depends a lot on the singer whether they a more on the bass or the baritone side. This also changes throughout career quite a bit because the voice usually darkens. But if I recall correctly Van Dam's Sachs in Solti's _Die Meistersinger_ then he was still brighter/lighter bass-baritone compared to e.g. Hotter.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

annaw said:


> He was a bass-baritone so I guess it depends a lot on the singer whether they a more on the bass or the baritone side. This also changes throughout career quite a bit because the voice usually darkens. But if I recall correctly Van Dam's Sachs in Solti's _Die Meistersinger_ then he was still brighter/lighter bass-baritone compared to e.g. Hotter.


Yes, and he was a truly gorgeous Amfortas on Karajan's _Parsifal_; not a Gurnemanz or Titurel.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

The Conte said:


> There is no Bass-baritone in the Italian voice system (although the opera is arguably a French one). However I agree and I did think it odd that Raimondi did Scarpia. I'm going to have to get my recordings out and give them a listen. I do like Van Dam though and he has always struck me as being a bass, a lyric bass, but a bass none the less.
> 
> N.


You say there is no bass-baritone in the Italian voice system. I find this statement interesting because I saw Don Carlo with Rene Pape who, though normally listed as a bass, has often sung in bass-baritone roles.

_"His repertory includes all the major Wagner bass-baritone roles, Sarastro (Die Zauberflöte), Philip II (Don Carlo) and Boris Godunov.
Pape first came to international prominence following his performances as Sarastro (Die Zauberflöte) at the Salzburg Festival under Georg Solti, who championed Pape throughout his early career. "_[/I]


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> Get ready with the rotten tomatoes:
> Licia Albanese- While I do recognize her wonderful talent for immersing herself into the character, which is commendable, she seems to sound to me like a little old lady.
> Cecilia Bartoli - Recognizing her fine voice and talents, it so annoys me when she aspirates that I actually cannot bear to listen to her
> Zinka Milanov- She has a grating, silver sound that annoys me, but I do give her mega points for her ability to execute perfect diminuendos.
> That's enough for now. (running for cover...)


I'm with you on Licia. Perhaps early on she had a gorgeous voice, but I agree, she always sounded old to me!!!


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

The Conte said:


> There is no Bass-baritone in the Italian voice system (although the opera is arguably a French one). However I agree and I did think it odd that Raimondi did Scarpia. I'm going to have to get my recordings out and give them a listen. I do like Van Dam though and he has always struck me as being a bass, a lyric bass, but a bass none the less.
> 
> N.


As an aside, if you are interested in that voice category just now you might enjoy the records by bass-baritone André Pernet. I've recently been bingeing on his records from the '30s and '40s on YouTube  ...


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

nina foresti said:


> You say there is no bass-baritone in the Italian voice system. I find this statement interesting because I saw Don Carlo with Rene Pape who, though normally listed as a bass, has often sung in bass-baritone roles.
> 
> _"His repertory includes all the major Wagner bass-baritone roles, Sarastro (Die Zauberflöte), Philip II (Don Carlo) and Boris Godunov.
> Pape first came to international prominence following his performances as Sarastro (Die Zauberflöte) at the Salzburg Festival under Georg Solti, who championed Pape throughout his early career. "_[/I]


There is no 'basso-baritono"! There is a Baritono dramatico and a basso cantante (as opposed to a basso buffo or basso profondo). What I was basically saying was that in the Italian nomenclature you are either a bass or a baritone.

N.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

annaw said:


> He was a bass-baritone so I guess it depends a lot on the singer whether they a more on the bass or the baritone side. This also changes throughout career quite a bit because the voice usually darkens. But if I recall correctly Van Dam's Sachs in Solti's _Die Meistersinger_ then he was still brighter/lighter bass-baritone compared to e.g. Hotter.


I know he was classified as a bass baritone, but I think he was a baritone who called himself a bass baritone because it better suited the rep he wanted to sing. Take a listen here from about 8:30 on. The low F is inaudible (literally). A true bass baritone has more down there.






On the flipside, his top notes are entirely too easy in bass roles. This man is a baritone my friends!


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

nina foresti said:


> Get ready with the rotten tomatoes:
> Licia Albanese- While I do recognize her wonderful talent for immersing herself into the character, which is commendable, she seems to sound to me like a little old lady.
> Cecilia Bartoli - Recognizing her fine voice and talents, it so annoys me when she aspirates that I actually cannot bear to listen to her
> Zinka Milanov- She has a grating, silver sound that annoys me, but I do give her mega points for her ability to execute perfect diminuendos.
> That's enough for now. (running for cover...)


I am going to follow-up Nina with the rotten tomatoes and, surely, I am going to get killed. I wish I liked the ones Nina lists more. However, today at the top of my list are: 
1. Anna Netrebko - I did not like her much as a lyric but I have become allergic to her forays into dramatic soprano these days: too much forcing, too much potato in the mouth sound, too throaty and to boot not a Kunst diva to make it worth it. She's just Anna. 
2. Anja Harteros - I have really tried but I cannot get her vocally or interpretatively. 
3. Dolora Zajick - I have really tried to love her as a singer (I love hearing her in interviews!) but there's something beyond me, I wish I could love her more. 
4. Piotr Beczala - his sound grates me and cannot appreciate anything beyond the forced sound I hear. 
5. Luca Salsi - the less said, the better.

Running for cover here also...


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

VitellioScarpia said:


> I am going to follow-up Nina with the rotten tomatoes and, surely, I am going to get killed. I wish I liked the ones Nina lists more. However, today at the top of my list are:
> 1. Anna Netrebko - I did not like her much as a lyric but I have become allergic to her forays into dramatic soprano these days: too much forcing, too much potato in the mouth sound, too throaty and to boot not a Kunst diva to make it worth it. She's just Anna.
> 2. Anja Harteros - I have really tried but I cannot get her vocally or interpretatively.
> 3. Dolora Zajick - I have really tried to love her as a singer (I love hearing her in interviews!) but there's something beyond me, I wish I could love her more.
> ...


How dare you say such things about my beloved Dolora?? I'll never forgive you! :lol:

I don't feel bad about it, but I think Leo Nucci is pretty bad lol. There must really be a shortage of Verdi baritones...


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Hey! It's getting crowded behind this couch.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

Bonetan said:


> How dare you say such things about my beloved Dolora?? I'll never forgive you! :lol:
> 
> I don't feel bad about it, but I think Leo Nucci is pretty bad lol. There must really be a shortage of Verdi baritones...


I agree with you about Nucci. He's way better than many others but I can't "love" him... 
BTW, I already feel bad about Dolora because I love her in many ways but something about her middle and low middle voice turns me off. (Mind you I love her blasting in Aida's Triumphal scene.)


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

VitellioScarpia said:


> I agree with you about Nucci. He's way better than many others but I can't "love" him...
> BTW, I already feel bad about Dolora because I love her in many ways but something about her middle and low middle voice turns me off. (Mind you I love her blasting in Aida's Triumphal scene.)


I would love to hear Dolora's huge sound in a house, but it is not a voice I would enjoy listening to in a recording.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

The Conte said:


> One man's bloodbath is another man's banter between 'mates'.
> 
> N.


TIO - When will the confusion end!?

I see , read your own post again there :devil:


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I would love to hear Dolora's huge sound in a house, but it is not a voice I would enjoy listening to in a recording.


That's an interesting thought. Has there ever been a thread about singers we love in the house and don't like in recordings? Or vice versa?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

OK, I said I wouldn't contribute, but I can see that people are being quite civilised, so I'll add my tuppence worth.

Sutherland - I've tried, I really have, but the poor diction and droopy portamenti (particularly in her middle period) drive me potty. Also, her middle voice legato is not as smooth as it should be. Listen to her singing the opening measures of _Senza mamma_ and then listen to Tebaldi, Scotto, Freni or Callas (all easy to find on yuotube) and you might hear what I mean. With Sutherland the notes come out in separate little bursts, where as with the others the long line is maintained, and yet all of them enunciate the cosonants better. I appreciate she is one of the greats and I am often stunned by the sheer virtuosity and fabulous high notes, but more often than not she just irritates me. I used to have more of her recordings, but found I never listened to them.

Bartoli - can't get past the rat-a-tat aspirates in fast moving music. At least Sutherand never sounds like that!

Fleming - For the most part I really like her. Strauss, yes. Mozart, yes. Love her Rusalka and Thaïs. Just don't think she sounds right in Italian opera. I have quite a few of her recital records, but got rid of the _Bel Canto_ one, as I didn't like it at all.

Milanov - yes, the pianissimi are fabulous, but otherwise I just find her rather dull.

Nilsson - I appreciate she was magnificent, the size of the voice and the rock solid top are no doubt one of the wonders of the world. I just don't much like _the sound_ of her voice. I'm told that if I'd heard her in the flesh, I would feel differently, and I'm willing to believe that, but I don't even like her Turandot much. Funnily enough I prefer Sutherland.

I used not to like Jessye Norman very much either. In soprano repertoire I always heard her as flat and I couldn't bear her famous reording of the _Vier letzte Lieder_. I heard her live quite a few times and I never felt as if the voice took off. However, I've changed my opinion and I like her a lot more these days, even in the Strauss, which has become one of my favourite versions. Maybe my hearing has changed.

I would just say that I do not in anyway dispute that these are all great singers, nor that they all justify their place in the hall of fame, just that there is something about their voice or style that irritates me.

On the other hand I cannot understand why Leo Nucci has had such a good career. Wooden actor and wooden singer. As someone mentioned above, it must be something to do with the dearth of good Verdi baritones.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> OK, I said I wouldn't contribute, but I can see that people are being quite civilised, so I'll add my tuppence worth.
> 
> Sutherland - I've tried, I really have, but the poor diction and droopy portamenti (particularly in her middle period) drive me potty. Also, her middle voice legato is not as smooth as it should be. Listen to her singing the opening measures of _Senza mamma_ and then listen to Tebaldi, Scotto, Freni or Callas (all easy to find on yuotube) and you might hear what I mean. With Sutherland the notes come out in separate little bursts, where as with the others the long line is maintained, and yet all of them enunciate the cosonants better. I appreciate she is one of the greats and I am often stunned by the sheer virtuosity and fabulous high notes, but more often than not she just irritates me. I used to have more of her recordings, but found I never listened to them.
> 
> ...


Much that I agree with here. I like Sutherland more than you do (but my recordings with her in tend to be either operas that weren't recorded by other star sopranos or because they are complete versions and have Pavarotti in) and I like Fleming less than you, although I too like her Rusalka and Thais. I agree about Nucci. He was good in bel canto when he was younger (Donizetti comedies), perhaps he shouldn't have sung as much Verdi as he did. On the other hand the dearth of good Verdi baritones is probably the reason he has had such a good career singing Verdi!

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Rogerx said:


> TIO - When will the confusion end!?
> 
> I see , read your own post again there :devil:


I was referring to this thread. I understand that vigorous debate isn't everyone's cup of tea and that some will choose to opt out, which is all fine. However I'm really enjoying that thread and I think it's an interesting exchange of ideas for those who enjoy that kind of discussion.

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Bonetan said:


> I know he was classified as a bass baritone, but I think he was a baritone who called himself a bass baritone because it better suited the rep he wanted to sing. Take a listen here from about 8:30 on. The low F is inaudible (literally). A true bass baritone has more down there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've just done some listening comparisons and... I agree, it's a dramatic baritone voice (I wonder what he could have achieved singing Verdi baritone roles!) I presume he wanted to sing/found it easier to sing as a lyric bass in the French rep. I always had the feeling there was something missing in his Philippe!

N.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

Tsaraslondon said:


> OK, I said I wouldn't contribute, but I can see that people are being quite civilised, so I'll add my tuppence worth.
> 
> Sutherland - I've tried, I really have, but the poor diction and droopy portamenti (particularly in her middle period) drive me potty. Also, her middle voice legato is not as smooth as it should be. Listen to her singing the opening measures of _Senza mamma_ and then listen to Tebaldi, Scotto, Freni or Callas (all easy to find on yuotube) and you might hear what I mean. With Sutherland the notes come out in separate little bursts, where as with the others the long line is maintained, and yet all of them enunciate the cosonants better. I appreciate she is one of the greats and I am often stunned by the sheer virtuosity and fabulous high notes, but more often than not she just irritates me. I used to have more of her recordings, but found I never listened to them.
> 
> ...


I had not mentioned the _greats from the recent past_ in my list.

Sutherland - I agree with Tsaraslondon in what I feel is low energy singing. The notes are emitted one at a time without the sense of rhythm and forward movement and not real legato. That's the reason why her famous coloratura roles (e.g. Lucia) do not say anything to me. Interestingly, I find her more energized and interesting in Turandot than her other roles. I really have tried and continue to try but I cannot LOVE her.

Bartoli - I liked her at the start but now all I hear is _La Ceci_ and white flutteratura, no real portrayal.

Fleming - well put Tsaraslondon, your words represent my reception of her also.

Nilsson - on the dot Tsaraslondon, e.g., I admire her Turandot but I love more Sutherland's to hers.

Jessye - I fell in love with her and I am still in love, flattening included (a clear case of love being "blind" or "forgiving")...

Nucci - you represented what I feel with him. Too much forcing in Verdi and Puccini, no deeply felt acting.

I will add Marylin Horne. She is a fantastic musician, perhaps more accomplished by effort in singing Bel Canto than Sutherland or Callas, booming lows, fantastic high notes. However, I hear too much nasal production and live her voice sounded occluded which was surprising. I still admire her but I do not gravitate to her records as others (e.g., Callas, Tebaldi, Scotto, L. Price, Jessye, Corelli, Bastianini, Simionato, etc.) pull me as their voices/art _speak_ to me.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

VitellioScarpia said:


> I had not mentioned the _greats from the recent past_ in my list.
> 
> Sutherland - I agree with Tsaraslondon in what I feel is low energy singing. The notes are emitted one at a time without the sense of rhythm and forward movement and not real legato. That's the reason why her famous coloratura roles (e.g. Lucia) do not say anything to me. Interestingly, I find her more energized and interesting in Turandot than her other roles. I really have tried and continue to try but I cannot LOVE her.
> 
> ...


Voices that _speak_ to me is exactly the term I use to describe the singers I like. You might be interested in an article I wrote entitled Singers Who Changed My Life. I make no claims to them being the greatest singers in the world, but they are the ones who have made the greatest impression on me personally over the years.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

The Conte said:


> I've just done some listening comparisons and... I agree, it's a dramatic baritone voice (I wonder what he could have achieved singing Verdi baritone roles!) I presume he wanted to sing/found it easier to sing as a lyric bass in the French rep. I always had the feeling there was something missing in his Philippe!
> 
> N.


My thoughts exactly. I think we may have missed out on a great Verdi baritone! However, he may have found the tessitura uncomfortable, which I can understand. Perhaps he felt caught between two fachs and made the choice to go down. I think he took it too far with Philippe though! It borderline Domingo singing baritone to my ears lol


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Bartoli - can't get past the rat-a-tat aspirates in fast moving music. At least Sutherand never sounds like that!


Call her Machine-Gun Bartoli!

I must say that I love watching Bartoli on You Tube. Her facial contortions are like a clown show.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

SixFootScowl said:


> Call her Machine-Gun Bartoli!
> 
> I must say that I love watching Bartoli on You Tube. Her facial contortions are like a clown show.


She's calmed down a bit when at Salzburg, but yes, the gurning put me off early on.

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

There are plenty of singers whom I _don't_ wish I loved more! If I don't like something I tend not to waste a moment sighing over the fact. I suppose the one singer I tried for a long time to like better was Caballe. Especially in her later recordings she can be strained, slack in phrasing, prone to glottal attacks and audible register breaks, and annoyingly self-indulgent with her pianissimi, but there was always a quality in the tone, a sort of tight reediness, that put me off. It isn't a flaw; at her best she was a great singer. But for the most part I enjoy only her early recordings, such as the collection of bel canto arias released in the late 1960s.

One other singer who comes to mind is Wolfgang Windgassen. He was such a superb artist, and so indispensable in the 1950s and 60s in Wagner's tenor roles, that I wish I found his timbre more pleasing. I'm nonetheless grateful for his recorded Tristan and Siegfried.

I find that I enjoy any number of singers less than I used to, even some great ones and some of my traditional favorites. I'm not always sure why this is, and sometimes I feel a bit wistful about it. Perhaps years of listening to singers have made me more discriminating, or maybe I've just become less tolerant and more curmudgeonly in general. I do observe a process of elimination that probably comes with not wanting to spend the years remaining to me on things that don't offer full enjoyment.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Voices that _speak_ to me is exactly the term I use to describe the singers I like. You might be interested in an article I wrote entitled Singers Who Changed My Life. I make no claims to them being the greatest singers in the world, but they are the ones who have made the greatest impression on me personally over the years.


Tsaras: thank you for the link to your blog. I read the _Singers Who Changed My Life_ with great interest and it resonated with me very much because of your insights and verbalization of feelings that I share in common with you regarding those singers. Your admiration does not show deafness to some of their limitations. I find abject fanaticism off-putting.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

I'm not very fond of Jon Vickers in anything other than Wagner. Not to start a Vickers vs. Pears flame war but his Grimes was simply a bad match for that (otherwise excellent) ROH ensemble. He plays him like the scenery-chewing lovechild of Boris and Tristan, and everyone else plays in a realistic manner. They feel like ordinary people and he feels like an Opera Character(TM). I feel like the character should be psychologically complex and make you feel uneasy, but Vickers is just too much a Wagner Tenor. Now, if someone plays Hermann or Canio a bit over-the-top, that's perfectly fine, but they're from a different musical era.

And speaking of Britten: Robert Tear did nothing for me. He might have been the worst Vere I encountered. I have a (very low-res but decent sound) video of a 90s Billy Budd, I think from Zürich or Genf, and he's got zero personality. Even cracked some notes.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

VitellioScarpia said:


> I had not mentioned the _greats from the recent past_ in my list.
> 
> Sutherland - I agree with Tsaraslondon in what I feel is low energy singing. The notes are emitted one at a time without the sense of rhythm and forward movement and not real legato. That's the reason why her famous coloratura roles (e.g. Lucia) do not say anything to me. Interestingly, I find her more energized and interesting in Turandot than her other roles. I really have tried and continue to try but I cannot LOVE her.
> 
> ...


Sutherland- before 1960 recordings only, when she was good. Heard her many times in the house in San Francisco Opera's great years. She was astonishing to hear on stage, but the flaws were still there. Big voice.
Nilsson - she sounded warmer in the house, the top transcendent. My top rated Turandot with Corelli, though I like the richness of the recording with Sutherland all-star ensemble. Nilsson could do no wrong in Wagner and Strauss, but in Italian opera, excepting Turandot, meh. 
Marilyn Horne - great coloratura, saw her many times, not a big fan of the voice. A tad mechanical for me. Nothing Verdi.
Fleming - beautiful voice, even on stage. Records well, but I prefer almost anyone to her. Soporific quality to her singing for me.
Bartoli - liked her first record, and her Cenerentola from Houston. Best "sposa son disprezzata » ever. Absolutely *hate* Her signing now, a travesti.
Nucci - unfortunately, the baritone of choice in most of the recordings he made at the height of his fame.
Jessye Norman - best 4 Last Songs for me, bar none. Loved her Cassandre/Didon at the Met. Her repertoire in opera sadly skewed her career due to her size. 
Di Donato - liked her in some Rossini, but in Bel Canto...no. Colorless sometimes, the voice is not rich enough for some roles. Don't like mezzos in soprano roles - they sound « wrong » to me. Same with Susan Graham as Iphigenie en Tauride. Just wrong.
Loved Caballe in many things, but she was very undisciplined late in her career, I thought she threw her pianissimi around too much, however glorious it could be.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Sieglinde said:


> I'm not very fond of Jon Vickers in anything other than Wagner. Not to start a Vickers vs. Pears flame war but his Grimes was simply a bad match for that (otherwise excellent) ROH ensemble. He plays him like the scenery-chewing lovechild of Boris and Tristan, and everyone else plays in a realistic manner. They feel like ordinary people and he feels like an Opera Character(TM). I feel like the character should be psychologically complex and make you feel uneasy, but Vickers is just too much a Wagner Tenor. Now, if someone plays Hermann or Canio a bit over-the-top, that's perfectly fine, but they're from a different musical era.
> 
> And speaking of Britten: Robert Tear did nothing for me. He might have been the worst Vere I encountered. I have a (very low-res but decent sound) video of a 90s Billy Budd, I think from Zürich or Genf, and he's got zero personality. Even cracked some notes.


I pretty much haven't experienced Vickers because he did not look the part for Fidelio on DVD, but recently saw him in The Bartered Bride DVD and thought he did a wonderful performance there.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

SixFootScowl said:


> I pretty much haven't experienced Vickers because he did not look the part for Fidelio on DVD,


What does Florestan look like?


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

SixFootScowl said:


> I pretty much haven't experienced Vickers because he did not look the part for Fidelio on DVD, but recently saw him in The Bartered Bride DVD and thought he did a wonderful performance there.


I think it's the wig! :lol::lol:


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> What does Florestan look like?









like this, if we're very lucky? Ha ha!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MAS said:


> View attachment 135971
> like this, if we're very lucky? Ha ha!


Right down to the stubble (assuming Florestan ever got to shave).


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Tsaraslondon said:


> What does Florestan look like?


Well I recall Vickers was pretty heavy and one would envision a starving prisoner as being rather thin.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

MAS said:


> View attachment 135971
> like this, if we're very lucky? Ha ha!


Guess they had a hair salon in the dungeon.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

SixFootScowl said:


> Guess they had a hair salon in the dungeon.


Absolutely! One has to look one's best even when imprisoned in a dungeon...


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

VitellioScarpia said:


> Tsaras: thank you for the link to your blog. I read the _Singers Who Changed My Life_ with great interest and it resonated with me very much because of your insights and verbalization of feelings that I share in common with you regarding those singers. Your admiration does not show deafness to some of their limitations. I find abject fanaticism off-putting.


Actually, I kept reading in your blog as I found your reviews very interesting and illuminating. Keep blogging! :tiphat:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

SixFootScowl said:


> Guess they had a hair salon in the dungeon.


His wife was a skilled cross-dresser. She probably helped him refine his style sense.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> His wife was a skilled cross-dresser. She probably helped him refine his style sense.


Who knows? Maybe he had made a stop by Figaro's before getting thrown into the dungeon a few miles away from Seville...


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

VitellioScarpia said:


> Who knows? Maybe he had made a stop by Figaro's before getting thrown into the dungeon a few miles away from Seville...


Oh my, that is a brilliant connection! :lol:
Now we just need to find a way to get Carmen involved with this situation!


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

adriesba said:


> Oh my, that is a brilliant connection! :lol:
> Now we just need to find a way to get Carmen involved with this situation!


In opera everything is possible


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

adriesba said:


> Oh my, that is a brilliant connection! :lol:
> Now we just need to find a way to get Carmen involved with this situation!


If there's anyone who could get past the guards and smuggle food into Florestan, it would be Carmen. Hence why Vickers looks so _solid_.

Another opera mystery solved!

N.


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## zxxyxxz (Apr 14, 2020)

The Conte said:


> If there's anyone who could get past the guards and smuggle food into Florestan, it would be Carmen. Hence why Vickers looks so _solid_.
> 
> Another opera mystery solved!
> 
> N.


Fantastic detective work people!

On a serious note I will never understand the obsession with appropriate looks.

On topic I usually feel bad for not liking the female voice more in general. Then I relisten to my favourite works and decide I can respect a good voice and even enjoy a well written part so the moment passes.

I tend to quickly stop listening to singers I dislike. Thought if convinced by reviews or curiousity I have been known to give singers a second or in the case of Birgit Nilson about a fourth chance.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

zxxyxxz said:


> Fantastic detective work people!
> 
> On a serious note I will never understand the obsession with appropriate looks.
> 
> ...


I have exactly the same problem!! I'd absolutely love to like female voice as much as I like male voice. Generally I much prefer listening to recitals of tenors and baritones rather than sopranos (Callas is an exception!). I don't know whether that's because of the voice or just the type of arias and music that is written to the male voice that I enjoy more (Immolation scene and Liebestod are of course utterly marvellous). One singer whom I've never really warmed up to is Domingo. Maybe I've heard him in the wrong rep, but for example as Otello I definitely prefer Vickers and Del Monaco.

About Vickers's Florestan. Looks don't matter at all if you have a voice like the one he had!!


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

zxxyxxz said:


> Fantastic detective work people!
> 
> On a serious note I will never understand the obsession with appropriate looks.
> 
> ...


So true, the singers I don't like I haven't heard as much of for that exact reason.

I agree about looks, in the opera house I find it matters little because unless you sit in the seats where you can't hear properly then you are too far away for looks or visual acting to matter much. The acoustics of opera mean that it works as vocal theatre and that's what I want. I recently watched the Pavarotti/Freni Boheme from San Francisco where both were in their fifties and thus ridiculously too old for their roles. However, they _sounded_ the part and that was so much more important to me. There is so much of opera that is visually convincing today whilst being vocally disappointing I wonder how much longer it will last as an artform. It will probably end up being little different from a fashion show with silent models swishing about the boards!

N.


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## zxxyxxz (Apr 14, 2020)

Thanks for confirming that in the house the distance from the stage becomes important. From my limited experience of two english touring opera shows and one local G&S show it seemed that way but having neither the money nor the inclienation to spend the money (given the state of singing) to and see a production in ab actual opera house I couldn't be sure.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

The Conte said:


> If there's anyone who could get past the guards and smuggle food into Florestan, it would be Carmen. Hence why Vickers looks so _solid_.
> 
> Another opera mystery solved!
> 
> N.


Now that the circle has been closed, we should expect for a _regie_ production where Don Pizarro gets both Figaro and Carmen in the dungeon as accomplices to Fidelio. Carmen could even sing the _couple moi, brûle moi, je ne te dirais rien_ sometime before Fidelio starts _Gott! Welch Dunkel hier!_, and then include Figaro and Carmen in the Finale _Heil seim den Tag_.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

zxxyxxz said:


> Fantastic detective work people!
> 
> *On a serious note I will never understand the obsession with appropriate looks.
> *
> ...


Well as I am interested in opera as drama and not just as a vocal recital, looks do come into it. I mean, when I saw a Trovatore from ROH with a tenor who looked older than me then it did spoil the show. Same with a Don G who instead of being 'a licentious young nobleman' was a 'dear old chappie'. Rather torpedos the show especially in HD. Might have been OK for short sighted people at the back of the circle but not on camera. We've gotta realise this is 2020 and not 1920 however much people resist being dragged kicking and screaming. Of course this is not new. The premiere of Traviata was a debacle because of the size of the consumptive heroine which caused a voice to call out from the stalls during the death scene, "It's not consumption, it's dropsy!" much to Verdi's displeasure. Of course we can take a bit of suspension of disbelief but when Florestan emerges from the dungeon looking as if he had a personal chef down there then it causes those of us who think opera to be a drama a few problems. Or when Tristan and Isolde are of a size to be in danger of sinking the ship before they have a chance to take the love potion then some of us find it difficult to suspend our disbelief.


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## zxxyxxz (Apr 14, 2020)

I will remember next time I listen to Tristan that young, thin, attractive people have the monopoly on portraying lovers.

I mean Tristan is 4 hours of want, tension, love, duty. Nothing in it actually requires anything more than convincing me that Tristan and Isolde feel overwhelming passion for each other.

Agree to disagree but the art of acting is convincing the audience you are something your not, looks alone do not make a serious actor.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

VitellioScarpia said:


> Now that the circle has been closed, we should expect for a _regie_ production where Don Pizarro gets both Figaro and Carmen in the dungeon as accomplices to Fidelio. Carmen could even sing the _couple moi, brûle moi, je ne te dirais rien_ sometime before Fidelio starts _Gott! Welch Dunkel hier!_, and then include Figaro and Carmen in the Finale _Heil seim den Tag_.


I suppose we could also have Pizarro turn into Scarpia and go after Leonore.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

DavidA said:


> Well as I am interested in opera as drama and not just as a vocal recital, looks do come into it. I mean, when I saw a Trovatore from ROH with a tenor who looked older than me then it did spoil the show. Same with a Don G who instead of being 'a licentious young nobleman' was a 'dear old chappie'. Rather torpedos the show especially in HD. Might have been OK for short sighted people at the back of the circle but not on camera. We've gotta realise this is 2020 and not 1920 however much people resist being dragged kicking and screaming. Of course this is not new. The premiere of Traviata was a debacle because of the size of the consumptive heroine which caused a voice to call out from the stalls during the death scene, "It's not consumption, it's dropsy!" much to Verdi's displeasure. Of course we can take a bit of suspension of disbelief but *when Florestan emerges from the dungeon looking as if he had a personal chef down there* then it causes those of us who think opera to be a drama a few problems. Or when Tristan and Isolde are of a size to be in danger of sinking the ship before they have a chance to take the love potion then some of us find it difficult to suspend our disbelief.


I don't see what's the problem with Vickers's Florestan. It's not nearly as bad as this thread makes it look like. What would have been the solution? Vickers starving himself doesn't sound very humane to me and I'd much rather take Vickers over some thin and good-looking tenor who sings half as well as he does. I mean, listen to him!! How can anyone care for looks if you hear that deep resonant and yet beautiful voice. He sings with such a wonderful ease.






I actually think that if there had been better technology in the past we would have many absolutely marvellous productions that could arguably be much better than the current HD ones.


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## zxxyxxz (Apr 14, 2020)

Fully agree! We can only dream. 

But then good looks and character interpretation are all subjective...


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

annaw said:


> *I don't see what's the problem with Vickers's Florestan. *It's not nearly as bad as this thread makes it look like. What would have been the solution? Vickers starving himself doesn't sound very humane to me and I'd much rather take Vickers over some thin and good-looking tenor who sings half as well as he does. I mean, listen to him!! How can anyone care for looks if you hear that deep resonant and yet beautiful voice. He sings with such a wonderful ease.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have no problem with Vickers as Florestan. Yes he is not exactly thin but his bulk was muscle not fat. And the voice was marvellous. It was certain others I thought of.


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## zxxyxxz (Apr 14, 2020)

I mean bulk is bulk if we are talking about a prisoner starving to death. But this is a silly argument with no end.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

There are plenty of roles where size really doesn't matter (I'd rather have a big Brünnhilde who can sing than someone who can't), but there are a few cases when you are starving or have consumption or have 3 people simultaneously in love with you where it's kind of a stretch. Same goes for the tenor looking twice the age of his own father (as, for example, Kunde and d'Arcangelo did in a recent Don Carlos).


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

Sieglinde said:


> There are plenty of roles where size really doesn't matter (I'd rather have a big Brünnhilde who can sing than someone who can't), but there are a few cases when you are starving or have consumption or have 3 people simultaneously in love with you where it's kind of a stretch. Same goes for the tenor looking twice the age of his own father (as, for example, Kunde and d'Arcangelo did in a recent Don Carlos).


Opera was conceived as theater and in a theater bulk is much less important because of the the distance. Actually, I remember seeing a famous bass-baritone at the Met for the first time who I did not perceive as bulky in the theater as he appeared to me when I saw him on a telecast. So, the issue about "believability" is really dependent on the medium used: live vs. TV or cinemas.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

Also, there is size and then there is SIZE. When someone is the size of roughly 4 Pavarottis, that's a bit too much.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Sieglinde said:


> Also, there is size and then there is SIZE. When someone is the size of roughly 4 Pavarottis, that's a bit too much.


Whelp, I take it back. My memory banks were dusty. Vickers looks a fine Florestan in the video posted above. I must have gotten him mixed up in my mind with the image on this DVD set:


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

SixFootScowl said:


> Whelp, I take it back. My memory banks were dusty. Vickers looks a fine Florestan in the video posted above. I must have gotten him mixed up in my mind with the image on this DVD set:


Wow, now I see your problem :lol:! This looks indeed a bit problematic.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

annaw said:


> Wow, now I see your problem :lol:! This looks indeed a bit problematic.











Yes I picked up this DVD of Tristan and Isolde for next to nothing in a second hand shop. The singing is very good but the actual stage action with two enormous people takes some believing. I noticed some Wagnerians it means nothing but I'm afraid it does to me especially as the Brangaener is rather good looking. You wonder why Tristan didn't fall for her


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## zxxyxxz (Apr 14, 2020)

They at least look convincingly in love it that shot. Nothing worse than a Tristan and Isolde that seem to look like they would rather be elsewhere.

They make a nice looking couple, quite believable. 

And what stage action?

Tristan is a series of conversations usually between 2 characters.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

DavidA said:


> View attachment 136234
> 
> 
> Yes I picked up this DVD of Tristan and Isolde for next to nothing in a second hand shop. The singing is very good but the actual stage action with two enormous people takes some believing. I noticed some Wagnerians it means nothing but I'm afraid it does to me especially as the Brangaener is rather good looking. You wonder why Tristan didn't fall for her


I've given up with finding a _Tristan_ production that I'm really happy with. Suthaus and Flagstad singing are quite enough for me.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

zxxyxxz said:


> They at least look convincingly in love it that shot. Nothing worse than a Tristan and Isolde that seem to look like they would rather be elsewhere.
> 
> They make a nice looking couple, quite believable.
> 
> ...


But they are supposed to be young lovers. But I know for Wagner any sense of reality goes out the window.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I read Jessie Norman was once asked if she’d considered singing Violeta in Traviata. She said, “who could ever imagine me dying of consumption!”


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

annaw said:


> I've given up with finding a _Tristan_ production that I'm really happy with. Suthaus and Flagstad singing are quite enough for me.


I feel your frustration. I've found two in black and white that I'd be happy with, but finding them for purchasing is the problem. I think we discussed this on the other thread, oh yes we did.... Agh! I must continue to vent my frustration about Wagner productions....

Oh, I never mentioned which singer I feel bad for not liking more. :lol:


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## zxxyxxz (Apr 14, 2020)

At least Ben Heppner looks more like a warrior than some thinner men too young to sing the part well.

There is nothing more disappointing than a Tristan or Siegfried with no chest to speak off. 

As for his Isolde in this universe Tristan obviously likes them this way. There easy to rationalise. Besides opera singers aren't there to ogled like ballet girls. 

And being an active historical fencer I can tell you that size is deceptive when it comes to fighting skill and speed. Before you come at me with that arguement.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

The Ponnelle Tristan had a rather nice pair and a pretty staging, but the ending was Mass Effect 3 levels of bad. 

I'm curious what Kaufmann and Harteros will be like. They have excellent chemistry and they look good, but being Munich, the staging will probably be crazy.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> View attachment 136234
> 
> 
> Yes I picked up this DVD of Tristan and Isolde for next to nothing in a second hand shop. The singing is very good but the actual stage action with two enormous people takes some believing. I noticed some Wagnerians it means nothing but I'm afraid it does to me especially as the Brangaener is rather good looking. You wonder why Tristan didn't fall for her


Good thing it cost you next to nothing. It's a bloodless bore. Static and colorless. Two obese people standing around. I worked up more of a heat doing my taxes.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

For some reason I don't care for Sumi Jo.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

SixFootScowl said:


> For some reason I don't care for Sumi Jo.


I've heard about her a lot, but I don't know what she sounds like. I've never listened to her as far as I know.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

adriesba said:


> I've heard about her a lot, but I don't know what she sounds like. I've never listened to her as far as I know.







Sumi Jo - Delibes - Lakme - Bell Song (Air des clochettes) - 2001

Now you can


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Rogerx said:


> Sumi Jo - Delibes - Lakme - Bell Song (Air des clochettes) - 2001
> 
> Now you can


I see. I wouldn't call her one of my favorites, but she seems decent to me from that clip.

She's on this album which I am curious about but can't find on Google Play or YouTube except fragments (some not in good sound). Sumi Jo seems like she would be good for this.

View attachment 136290


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

This is one of her first recital discs, not bad at all.
French coloratura arias.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

DavidA said:


> View attachment 136234
> 
> 
> Yes I picked up this DVD of Tristan and Isolde for next to nothing in a second hand shop. The singing is very good but the actual stage action with two enormous people takes some believing. I noticed some Wagnerians it means nothing but I'm afraid it does to me especially as the Brangaener is rather good looking. You wonder why Tristan didn't fall for her


It was great in the theater but not for video, I agree. In the opera house it was one of the great opera events of my life. On stage their size took second place to the vocals and the great staging. I saw it in Seattle, not NYC.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I enjoy male singers when I can see them, and it they are handsome they get extra points. Onstage or on video they hold my attention. I listen to opera mostly in the car and unless it is in a duet I almost never listen to male singers. I read where some of you prefer the male voice. Isn't that funny. It doesn't even really seem to matter one's sexual orientation. Some people just resonate more to one sex than another vocally.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

.........................


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I enjoy male singers when I can see them, and it they are handsome they get extra points. Onstage or on video they hold my attention. I listen to opera mostly in the car and unless it is in a duet I almost never listen to male singers. I read where some of you prefer the male voice. Isn't that funny. It doesn't even really seem to matter one's sexual orientation. Some people just resonate more to one sex than another vocally.


This raises an interesting topic. I prefer lower voices of both sexes! Mezzos, Baritone and Basses are my favourites, tenors my least faves and I don't like many coloraturas and lyrics when it comes to the sopranos.

N.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

Seattleoperafan said:


> It was great in the theater but not for video, I agree. In the opera house it was one of the great opera events of my life. On stage their size took second place to the vocals and the great staging. I saw it in Seattle, not NYC.


Yes. What looks good on camera and close up actually looks famished in a theater. There need be certain size and stature to be effective on stage. Many people that are obese or _morbidly obese_ (to use the words from a recent statement :lol do not look bad on stage.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

VitellioScarpia said:


> Yes. What looks good on camera and close up actually looks famished in a theater. There need be certain size and stature to be effective on stage. Many people that are obese or _morbidly obese_ (to use the words from a recent statement :lol do not look bad on stage.


We had a Brunhilde years ago who was built like a Playboy centerfold, but onstage she looked frail. We also had a gorgeous African American Aida who looked smashing onstage, but I saw her at Tristan in the lobby and her butt was as big as Kansas LOL I don't know where it came from. That was mean.... but I did leave out the name.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

The Conte said:


> This raises an interesting topic. I prefer lower voices of both sexes! Mezzos, Baritone and Basses are my favourites, tenors my least faves and I don't like many coloraturas and lyrics when it comes to the sopranos.
> 
> N.


Almost exactly how I feel! Sopranos being my least favorite...


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## zxxyxxz (Apr 14, 2020)

VitellioScarpia said:


> Yes. What looks good on camera and close up actually looks famished in a theater. There need be certain size and stature to be effective on stage. Many people that are obese or _morbidly obese_ (to use the words from a recent statement :lol do not look bad on stage.


Thank you and Seattleoperafan for this, its these sort of things about size and stage presence I have wondered about, given my lack of experience with live opera in proper sized theatres.

I know I have already said that my least favourite voices are the female voice. My favourite voice type is tenor.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> We had a Brunhilde years ago who was built like a Playboy centerfold, but onstage she looked frail. We also had a gorgeous African American Aida who looked smashing onstage, but I saw her at Tristan in the lobby and her butt was as big as Kansas LOL I don't know where it came from. That was mean.... but I did leave out the name.


Surely it has more to do with stature and stage presence than size. Baltsa is not particularly tall and is a very slender lady, but the voice was enormous and every time I saw her she riveted attention on stage. People say that you couldn't take your eyes off Callas whether she was fat or thin. There are plenty of examples of singers who look good both close up and on stage. If your Brünnhilde looked frail on stage it might have had more to do with her stage presence than anything else.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Seattleoperafan said:


> *We had a Brunhilde years ago who was built like a Playboy centerfold*, but onstage she looked frail. We also had a gorgeous African American Aida who looked smashing onstage, but I saw her at Tristan in the lobby and her butt was as big as Kansas LOL I don't know where it came from. That was mean.... but I did leave out the name.


Ummmm...who is this goddess?? You may have just described my dream girl, although up until now I never considered that such a woman could exist :lol:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> Ummmm...who is this goddess?? You may have just described my dream girl, although up until now I never considered that such a woman could exist :lol:


Please keep in mind that valkyries are interested only in men who've been gruesomely slain with swords, spears and battleaxes.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Please keep in mind that valkyries are interested only in men who've been gruesomely slain with swords, spears and battleaxes.


To be fair aren't all the other male characters in the Ring total scumbags or their father?

N.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

The Conte said:


> I've just done some listening comparisons and... I agree, it's a dramatic baritone voice (I wonder what he could have achieved singing Verdi baritone roles!) I presume he wanted to sing/found it easier to sing as a lyric bass in the French rep. I always had the feeling there was something missing in his Philippe!
> 
> N.


The frequency of the Van Dam-as-bass argument around here is very puzzling. He's one of my favorite singers and I have him on dozens of recordings, the vast majority of which are in baritone or bass-baritone roles--Golaud, Escamillo, Amfortas, the Sprecher, Leporello, Figaro, etc. Occasionally he'd dip his toes into true bass roles--for Don Carlos, I have him as Filippo in one recording, but as the Monk in 4 or 5, Sarastro once (outstanding by the way even though the lowest notes were a bit of a stretch) but the Sprecher several times.

He hardly made a career out of trying to force himself into bass roles--he did bass roles very occasionally but was obviously primarily a baritone or light bass-baritone with a respectable lower extension.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

howlingfantods said:


> The frequency of the Van Dam-as-bass argument around here is very puzzling. He's one of my favorite singers and I have him on dozens of recordings, the vast majority of which are in baritone or bass-baritone roles--Golaud, Escamillo, Amfortas, the Sprecher, Leporello, Figaro, etc. Occasionally he'd dip his toes into true bass roles--for Don Carlos, I have him as Filippo in one recording, but as the Monk in 4 or 5, Sarastro once (outstanding by the way even though the lowest notes were a bit of a stretch) but the Sprecher several times.
> 
> He hardly made a career out of trying to force himself into bass roles--he did bass roles very occasionally but was obviously primarily a baritone or light bass-baritone with a respectable lower extension.


I too like Van Dam, but the main recordings I have with him in are Don Carlos and Faust, both in bass roles. I also saw him live in a recital and all the encores were bass arias. However, it's good to be reminded that his overall career saw him as a baritone. Perhaps he sang more bass roles later on?

N.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The Conte said:


> I too like Van Dam, but the main recordings I have with him in are Don Carlos and Faust, both in bass roles. I also saw him live in a recital and all the encores were bass arias. However, it's good to be reminded that his overall career saw him as a baritone. Perhaps he sang more bass roles later on?
> 
> N.


Baritone roles, or those that are often sung by both voice types? Golaud, Escamillo, Leporello, Figarao have all been sung by basses and baritones.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> To be fair aren't all the other male characters in the Ring total scumbags or their father?
> 
> N.


Oh, I don't know... Loge is a rather interesting fellow (though I'm sure not everyone finds compulsive irony sexy), and some of the Gibichung choristers are appealing in a rough sort of way, especially those alphorn players.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Bonetan said:


> Ummmm...who is this goddess?? You may have just described my dream girl, although up until now I never considered that such a woman could exist :lol:


Janice Baird


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## SanyiKocka (May 6, 2020)

Sieglinde said:


> Bass roles in general. How can the same man sing Scarpia and King Philip? He lacks that real dark bass sound. Higher-lying roles work better, but Philip really needs the depth.
> 
> Tbh I have the same vocal problem with José van Dam's King Philip. He's a bit underpowered for it. I'm not sure why he kept singing true bass roles. The other day I listened to the classic Abbado Boccanegra where he's Paolo and not only did he sound beautiful, he sang with such clarity and comfort!


There's no bass-baritone in Italian operas. Usually bass-baritones are used in Italian works, especially in Verdi's, as basses. In Verdi works, the high register is too hard to bass-baritones. BTW, Scarpia does not require an extremely high register, so many bass-baritones manage to do it. The most surprising thing I have ever heard about is that the same man can sing the Grand Inquisitor, the Friar and Rodrigo! He is Justino Diaz...I don't know if he sings Phillip as well...


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