# Symphonic Form



## Jules141 (Nov 20, 2009)

What really is a symphony?

I've honestly Googled and searched up and down the net but am still confused. Bare in mind I have very very little knowledge of classical music form. My understanding so far is:

a (usually) four movement piece, the 1st movement being (usually) in sonata form, then an scherzo/dance/march and slow movement, the final movement being fast and again usually sonata?

I suppose what confuses me most is the idea of thematic development? How does a theme develop? If I have say a ten-note theme, and change the last three notes in the 'development section', then again in the 'recapulisation' would this be a sufficiant development?

Its really this idea of thematic development that confuses me the most. I understand its hard to translate into layman language. If you have any links or anything really I would much appreciate help!

I do apologise for my ignorance, if I sound as if I'm too far out of my depth please do tell me!


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Jules141 said:


> What really is a symphony?
> 
> I've honestly Googled and searched up and down the net but am still confused. Bare in mind I have very very little knowledge of classical music form. My understanding so far is:


Best thing to do about learning what it is, is simply go listen to several.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I'd second HarpsichordConcerto's advice - best to learn things through your own experience.

Symphonies actually started as overtures in the Baroque era. For example, some cantatas, oratorios and operas had an introductory overture called 'sinfonia.' This was usually in one movement split up into three sections - fast-slow-fast. In the early classical era, this developed into what we now can properly call symphonies, which were usually in three seperate movements (fast-slow-fast). At the height of the classical era, composers like Mozart and Haydn added a dance movement into the mix (called minuet) and so the number of movements was expanded to four. Beethoven discarded the minuet and substituted it with a scherzo. He also expanded the symphony, his 6th the 'Pastoral' having 5 movements. A lot of Romantic era symphonies are in four movements, but some aren't. Eg. Cesar Franck's famous symphony only has three. & when you get into the later part of the c19th and into the c20th, the form became increasingly malleable. Many of Mahler's symphonies have more than four movements. Sibelius' 7th symphony is made up of different sections comprising one continuous movement. & there has been a lot of variations between those two extremes ever since...


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## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

"Development section" is not strictly defined. There's no law saying what counts as a development section and what doesn't. Generally speaking, it's just the long bit of music in between the first statement of the theme and the last statement of the theme. The development section does usually _grow_ from the theme in some way, but exactly how this is done depends on the composer.

The first movement of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony is a classic example of development (Youtube link). The theme is simply the first four notes.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Webernite said:


> The first movement of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony is a classic example of development (Youtube link). The theme is simply the first four notes.


And those four notes actually appear in one form or another in every movement of the piece, though sometimes heavily disguised. Few symphonies go to quite this extreme I believe. It's always a huge epiphany for me the first time I notice a recurring motif or theme, maybe turned upside down or sped up or slowed down, or found in the distant background now as accompaniment and in a different key entirely. Those are the peak moments I listen for in music.


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