# What lead you to religious music?



## deprofundis

Here is my anecdote ,bare whit me im not lying, i have been attack by at least two demons in my life , i have clear memory of what iseen happen , once i was struck in the middle of the chest by this
formless entity i felt a blow, i was 25 yrs , 10 years later way mutch worst would happen...

I received death treat like your are gonna die soon or die soon enought, on a chat room.For a long time i were paranoid of what could happen to me, someone did goetia or something and sent me another demon or satan himself no sub-alterne.

So enought detail of these awfull story, i dont wont to remenber what i saw.Imagine seeing your best friend possessed or your nephew well this happen to me, and i did not ask a pastor to save my sorry
a** from danger, i fought this evil force whit method i wont mention here and it work the demon vanished in thin air in black smoke it smell like sulfur, enought detail, allready said enought.

But this is what that lead me to religious music, life experience whit whitchraft or sorcery whatever someone called it.I became a beleiver, but before beleiving in a god or whatever you most beleive in you, im proud of how strong i wear when i face true evil, and religious music remind me of my victory against the forces of evil( and please people im not making this up, im not insane or on weed).

This was my testimony about religious music, what brought me there.

:tiphat:


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## GreenMamba

This is OT, but any updates on your problems with your marijuana-smoking friends?


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## deprofundis

i dont seem em anymore GreenMamba


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## Manxfeeder

Wow. Mine isn't as dramatic. Though what led me to classical sacred music was, my church thought we needed to get contemporary and imposed a ton of boring contemporary Christian music on us, sung by dead-eyed teenagers. I had to get transcendence somewhere, and that stuff wasn't doing it. Boy howdy, the sacred classical music I discovered brought me to the throne of God.

Now I'm at a different church, and the contemporary music is being sung by people who actually mean what they're singing. It's a lot better.


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## Bulldog

Being anti-religious, I listen to sacred music for the same reason I listen to other genres; I just want great music.


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## breakup

Manxfeeder said:


> Now I'm at a different church, and the contemporary music is being sung by people who actually mean what they're singing. It's a lot better.


 Some time ago My wife and I were in a church choir, and the director decided that we would sing together better if we know more about each other. So she started asking us to answer questions about our favorites, food, music, TV, etc. She got around to colors and I was getting the ****'s of this game and was ready to end it. Everyone was giving the typical answers, red, green, blue, blah, blah, blah, and they finally got to the basses where I was. I already had a reputation, but no-one was expecting my answer. I said my favorite color was 'Flesh', everyone broke up with laughter, and the director decided we should just get back to singing.


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## Bellinilover

I'm in the middle of a transition from Roman Catholicism to Protestantism, and one of the things that has inspired me along the way are hymns by Protestant hymn-writers like Isaac Watts, Charles Wesley, and even Martin Luther (the classic "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God"). My favorite "Protestant" work of all, though, is without a doubt the Four Serious Songs (or, _Vier ernste Gesange_) of Johannes Brahms.

I must add that, though I personally am leaning toward the Reformed wing of Protestantism (i.e. Presbyterian or Congregationalist), I think the Lutheran Church is extremely lucky to have Bach as part of its musical heritage.


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## MoatsArt

I chance encounter with William Cornysh on the radio in about 1988


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## Antiquarian

As a child I listened to quite a bit of J.S. Bach, and was not immediately concerned that the bulk of his work was religious in intent. It was just beautiful music. I was raised a John Knox Presbyterian, so on Sundays the only music our family felt proper to listen to was Bach, or Handel, or hymns by Augustus Toplady. To directly answer the OP, I think it was God who led me to religious music, using my parents.


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## Pugg

Bulldog said:


> Being anti-religious, I listen to sacred music for the same reason I listen to other genres; I just want great music.


Amen to this, or hallelujah if you like


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## Vicente

I am religious person, though that's not the main reason I listen and love Palestrina or Vitoria Masses, or Mozart Requiem to give an example from a more recent period. I also love this type of music because it's great. Nevertheless, IMHO we, religious people obtain a big plus listening it.
Regards
Vicente


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## brotagonist

The road less travelled  I don't listen to overtly religious music often.


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## isorhythm

I came to religious music because my mother is a professional church musician. Religious music, above all Bach, was the first music I ever heard.

This has shaped the way I hear music in general. I hear a lot of music as though it were religious music, in a way. In my personal mental map of classical music, religious music remains at the center.


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## Woodduck

Antiquarian said:


> As a child I listened to quite a bit of J.S. Bach, and was not immediately concerned that the bulk of his work was religious in intent. It was just beautiful music. I was raised a John Knox Presbyterian, so on Sundays the only music our family felt proper to listen to was Bach, or Handel, or hymns by Augustus Toplady.  To directly answer the OP, I think it was God who led me to religious music, using my parents.


I haven't seen the name Augustus Toplady for fifty years. It sounds just as funny now. Thanks for the memory.


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## ArtMusic

Primarily the great religious music of Bach, Handel, Vivaldi, Mozart, Haydn.


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## Dim7

it was LORD of DARKNESS... the evil in me found black METAL, the only REAL religious music... hail Satan!! \,,/


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## Vicente

Dim7 said:


> it was LORD of DARKNESS... the evil in me found black METAL, the only REAL religious music... QUOTE]
> 
> Interesting approach. I am almost sure there are more surprised readers besides me.


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## Morimur

I am a Christian (albeit an immature one) and I simply began craving God centered music. I also listen to secular music so long as it's not blasphemous, of course.


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## Blake

If it sounds good, I'm in.


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## Ingélou

Maybe *because* I am a Christian, I find a lot of religious music to be boring or irritating - perversely getting the feeling that I'm expected to wow over something simply because it is religious; or the music reminds me, uncomfortably, that I have a short attention span when it comes to prayer! 

But religious music that is both dramatic and devotional gets my attention: Vivaldi's Stabat Mater, unearthly medieval Marian canticles, Lully's Te Deum, Rachmaninov's Liturgy of St John Chrysostom, Biber's Rosary Sonatas, Handel's I know that my Redeemer Liveth, Taize chants, the Missa Luba.

If religious music has the wow factor *as music*, then the spiritual side of it kicks in, and I find it 'double-plus good'.


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## breakup

Growing up, going to church was part of it, and music was part of the church service, so I wasn't lead to it, religious music has always been there. 

Many years ago I had a problem with some of the people in the church we now attend and I stopped going. Later my wife told me about the new musician playing for the church, and I started going again just to hear her play. My wife is very involved in the church, but I am trying to not get involved any more than is absolutely necessary.


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## SiegendesLicht

When I was a Christian, I listened to "Christian rock" and CCM (contemporary Christian). Now that I am an atheist, I listen to Bach and Handel.


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## Bellinilover

Ingélou said:


> Maybe *because* I am a Christian, I find a lot of religious music to be boring or irritating - perversely getting the feeling that I'm expected to wow over something simply because it is religious; or the music reminds me, uncomfortably, that I have a short attention span when it comes to prayer!
> 
> But religious music that is both dramatic and devotional gets my attention: Vivaldi's Stabat Mater, unearthly medieval Marian canticles, Lully's Te Deum, Rachmaninov's Liturgy of St John Chrysostom, Biber's Rosary Sonatas, Handel's I know that my Redeemer Liveth, Taize chants, the Missa Luba.
> 
> If religious music has the wow factor *as music*, then the spiritual side of it kicks in, and I find it 'double-plus good'.


I know the feeling you're talking about, of feeling expected to swoon over music _simply_ because it's religious. I've had exactly that experience with many Christmas carols. I won't elaborate too much for fear of offending someone; let's just say that I greatly prefer to hear "Silent Night" and "O Holy Night" in their original languages (German and French) rather than in English.

As for church music, I find I'm mostly a traditionalist; however, my favorite religious song is probably "I'll Walk with God," written in the 1950's. I love that song.


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## SixFootScowl

My first religious music was Handel's Messiah after I became a Christian. I enjoyed the religious works of Vivaldi and others too. Never found contemporary Christian music (CCM) or Christian rock to be very good. I prefer Christian music sung by folks who are not specifically marketed in the CCM category, such as the religious songs of Johnny Cash or the three Christian albums of Bob Dylan.


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## DavidA

Much CCM is not great music as it is intended to be sung by the congregation most of whom are not musically trained. In this it's it's a great tradition which comes from the Reformation by people like Martin Luther who wrote hymns for people to sing based on popular tunes of the day. They were far more interested in teaching people the truth through the singing of hymns to tunes they knew rather than any great musical tradition. All the great hymn writers followed this tradition. Charles Wesley wrote his hymns to teach ordinary people - most of whom were illiterate - the truths of the Bible in a form they could remember and memorise. A specialist at this was the former slave trader John Newton who would write a hymn for people to sing based round his teaching that Sunday. For example, Amazing Grace has around 85% of its words of one syllable so the working people of Olney could understand it. Later William booth set hymns is to popular tunes on the grounds that why should the devil have all the best tunes. So I don't look for great music when I get to church and sing but it is a transcendental experience to worship God in a way that is accessible with other believers. 
Of course much of the religious music we encounter in classical music is religious words set to music by people who are not believers themselves. I cannot take Verdi's Requiem seriously as a religious work as Verdi himself did not believe it, tremendous though the music is. Perhaps the greatest fusion of religious music and faith comes in the works of Bach and Handel, particularly the Messiah. It's a great experience to hear "I know that my Redeemer liveth" as I believe it's absolute truth set to great music! Interesting that when the Messiah became very popular in England John Newton preached a series of sermons based on the texts!


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## Woodduck

What led me to religious music? My mother, who dragged me to church and Sunday school twice a week. I can't say much for the music, which was easy to sing in or out of tune and sounded either weepy or happy depending on whether we were repenting from our sins or feeling relieved at being saved from them. At a certain point I discovered classical music, religious and otherwise, and was soon lecturing my mother on how I thought Wagner and Beethoven were more deeply spiritual than the stuff we sang in church. I don't know to this day whether that made any sense to her. But it has never ceased to make perfect sense to me.


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## DavidA

Woodduck said:


> What led me to religious music? My mother, who dragged me to church and Sunday school twice a week. I can't say much for the music, which was easy to sing in or out of tune and sounded either weepy or happy depending on whether we were repenting from our sins or feeling relieved at being saved from them. At a certain point I discovered classical music, religious and otherwise, and was soon lecturing my mother on how I thought Wagner and Beethoven were more deeply spiritual than the stuff we sang in church. I don't know to this day whether that made any sense to her. But it has never ceased to make perfect sense to me.


You are comparing chalk and cheese. When you listen to Beethoven or Wagner your experience comes through the greatness and power of the music. However, when you sing in church, the experience comes from within the believer from his love and devotion to God. Although good music helps us worship (and I am fortunate enough to go to a church with good CCM) the believer can worship God even without music. Whether people in the congregation can sing well or not is entirely irrelevant. I am always thankful when I sing in church that the Psalmist exhorts us to make a joyful noise to the Lord rather than a tuneful noise to the Lord!


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## regenmusic

I enjoyed the sacred starting from an early age, but I was also a class clown type and athletic up to my teen years.
I took classical piano lessons as a child and wanted to grow up to be either a composer or a progressive rock type
keyboardist. When I was still a teen, I didn't want to turn out like many pot-smoking or other drug taking musicians,
and it was a constant temptation because it was often around me. So, I turned to spirituality, and often found just
as much craziness in some so-called spiritual circles. I found Christianity to be the most normal, and, while I don't
want this to be a dispute, seems to have the best track record. (I also studied cults as an adult, which I find fascinating).

Sacred music helps me keep the positive spiritual impulses going. There are a lot of kind of lost souls today, IMHO, who
consider music that is very dark "spiritual" because they are on some kind of occult quest. You really don't find this
in classical sacred music, and it is in the world of serious music that one escapes the psuedo-sophisticated musical world
that so many of my peers have surrounded themselves with.


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## Woodduck

DavidA said:


> You are comparing chalk and cheese. When you listen to Beethoven or Wagner your experience comes through the greatness and power of the music. However, when you sing in church, the experience comes from within the believer from his love and devotion to God. Although good music helps us worship (and I am fortunate enough to go to a church with good CCM) the believer can worship God even without music. Whether people in the congregation can sing well or not is entirely irrelevant. I am always thankful when I sing in church that the Psalmist exhorts us to make a joyful noise to the Lord rather than a tuneful noise to the Lord!


Everyone has his own personal experience of religion. I would never comment on that. But since this is still a music thread and not the politics and religion thread, I feel it's appropriate to comment on religious music as music, and say that, for me, even at the age of sixteen, there was a greater spiritual depth and power in Beethoven's late quartets or Wagner's _Parsifal_ than there was in "Ein feste Burg" or "When the Roll is Called Up Yonder." As you say, in church the specific music used is not the point. But to a young musician it may be very significant and worth telling his mother about! And it may continue to be significant to an old artist who doesn't see spiritual matters as the monopoly of religious dogmas and institutions. And that's all I'll say about religion.

As far as church music is concerned, there are some magnificent hymns which I love. Alas, the sort of church I was taken to was more fond of Haldor Lillenas and Augustus M. Toplady than of George Herbert and Ralph Vaughan Williams. Musically speaking, I came up from the slums!


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## DavidA

Woodduck said:


> Everyone has his own personal experience of religion. I would never comment on that. But since this is still a music thread and not the politics and religion thread, I feel it's appropriate to comment on religious music as music, and say that, for me, even at the age of sixteen, there was a greater spiritual depth and power in Beethoven's late quartets or Wagner's _Parsifal_ than there was in "Ein feste Burg" or "When the Roll is Called Up Yonder." As you say, in church the specific music used is not the point. But to a young musician it may be very significant and worth telling his mother about! And it may continue to be significant to an old artist who doesn't see spiritual matters as the monopoly of religious dogmas and institutions. And that's all I'll say about religion.
> 
> As far as church music is concerned, there are some magnificent hymns which I love. Alas, the sort of church I was taken to was more fond of Haldor Lillenas and Augustus M. Toplady than of George Herbert and Ralph Vaughan Williams. Musically speaking, I came up from the slums!


You are of course sharing your feelings as a musician rather than as a worshipper. Fair enough. It certainly depends how you see the word 'spiritual'. Your use of it is certainly very different from the context I would use it in relationship to Christian worship. Can I just point out too that Augustus Toplady was a poet rather than a musician. He only produced the words. The point however is that Christian worship is not meant to be a great musical experience a la Beethoven. It is something that ordinary people - musicians and non-musicians - can join in to worship God. I am all for excellence in worship music (the church I attend uses musicians many of whom, are professional outside of church) but music in church should never be a thing in itself. If it is then we as a church are missing the point of worship.


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## Woodduck

DavidA said:


> You are of course sharing your feelings as a musician rather than as a worshipper. Fair enough. It certainly depends how you see the word 'spiritual'. Your use of it is certainly very different from the context I would use it in relationship to Christian worship. Can I just point out too that Augustus Toplady was a poet rather than a musician. He only produced the words. The point however is that Christian worship is not meant to be a great musical experience a la Beethoven. It is something that ordinary people - musicians and non-musicians - can join in to worship God. I am all for excellence in worship music (the church I attend uses musicians many of whom, are professional outside of church) but music in church should never be a thing in itself. If it is then we as a church are missing the point of worship.


I didn't want to get into discussing religion here but you seem to be insisting on it.

I don't disagree at all that musical experiences are not what churches are for. But to deny that the word "spiritual" can properly apply to musical or other artistic experiences is to define the term too narrowly for me. Anything that deepens and refines our sense of what life is about, anything that helps us to be more sensitive and aware, more understanding of the breadth and depth of human experience, may have spiritual value, as I use the term. Religion seeks to focus and direct our spiritual lives in specific ways, but it doesn't create the human spirit, which exists in all of us and can be cultivated in every area of life, whether or not we hold specific religious beliefs or observe religious rituals. And as far as such beliefs and rituals are concerned, they differ greatly from religion to religion, but surely it would be wrong to say that one particular religion holds a monopoly on spirituality.

Frankly, I got a sufficient dose of the exclusive claims of Christians to spiritual truth in my youth - claims made, if I may say it, by people who did not impress me with their spiritual depth! Great art, including music, was one of the things that helped me see over the side of that box.


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## Bulldog

I don't believe that religion has cornered the market on spirituality. Although I'm quite low on the spiritual scale, I do feel it when listening to a lot of music.


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## DavidA

Woodduck said:


> I didn't want to get into discussing religion here but you seem to be insisting on it.
> 
> I don't disagree at all that musical experiences are not what churches are for. *But to deny that the word "spiritual" can properly apply to musical or other artistic experiences is to define the term too narrowly for me*. Anything that deepens and refines our sense of what life is about, anything that helps us to be more sensitive and aware, more understanding of the breadth and depth of human experience, may have spiritual value, as I use the term. Religion seeks to focus and direct our spiritual lives in specific ways, but it doesn't create the human spirit, which exists in all of us and can be cultivated in every area of life, whether or not we hold specific religious beliefs or observe religious rituals. And as far as such beliefs and rituals are concerned, they differ greatly from religion to religion, but surely it would be wrong to say that one particular religion holds a monopoly on spirituality.
> 
> Frankly, I got a sufficient dose of the exclusive claims of Christians to spiritual truth in my youth - claims made, if I may say it, by people who did not impress me with their spritual depth! Great art, including music, was one of the things that helped me see over the side of that box.


Actually I think it's you who's getting into discussing religion! Just to say that I didn't restrict the use of the word 'spiritual' but said we are using it in a different context. Of course I believe that man is a spiritual being, whether he is a believer or not. Interesting today that even atheists are discussing 'spirituality' wrt themselves. Why? Man is a spiritual being and finds the need of the spiritual somewhere down the line. I cannot comment on the people you were associated with in your youth as I wasn't there. But as one who has seen both inside and outside the box I can comment that both sides of 'spirituality' are valid!


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## DavidA

Bulldog said:


> I don't believe that religion has cornered the market on spirituality. Although I'm quite low on the spiritual scale, I do feel it when listening to a lot of music.


Exactly the point I've just made to Woodduck. was are spiritual beings whether we like it or not! :lol:


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## Dedalus

I'm an atheist, and the word "spiritual" has very ambiguous meaning for me. It seems one of those words that means a different thing for each person who uses it. In any case, I was led to religious/spiritual music because I simply explored all of classical more or less randomly (Starting with the greats and filling out with lesser knowns) and I found a lot of religious/spiritual music to be very enjoyable and uplifting. I like the big full sound of orchestra and choirs in masses, and I just enjoy it, completely detached from its religious nature, but purely because the music sounds good to me.


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## DavidA

I think it's interesting that in their search for the 'spiritual' atheists are actually holding their own church services!


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## Woodduck

DavidA said:


> I think it's interesting that in their search for the 'spiritual' atheists are actually holding their own church services!


Please do not continue to inject remarks about other people's religious convictions or practices into this discussion, unless you are prepared to have those people do the same to yours - which they probably won't do, since most people are aware that there are more appropriate places for it. Try the Politics and Religion forum.


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## Dim7

As stupid as this sounds, the closest to religious/spiritual experience I've had was playing a video game (Final Fantasy VII) as a child.


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## EdwardBast

They tried to make a Catholic out of me ( :angel:  :devil: ) and in the process dragged me to a church with a great organist and choir director, a million-dollar pipe organ, and a meticulously rehearsed 40-voice choir. (Some places care about the quality of the music!) Moreover, Dr. Heibrecht, the choir director and organist, had the taste to use good polyphonic music at high mass and Renaissance motets for holidays. Later in life I got to know a lot of early and Renaissance music purely for its musical value and the enjoyment of hearing it. I'm not sure what influence my early exposure to religious music had on my later tastes; so much intervening experience.


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## DavidA

Woodduck said:


> Please do not continue to inject remarks about other people's religious convictions or practices into this discussion, unless you are prepared to have those people do the same to yours - which they probably won't do, since most people are aware that there are more appropriate places for it. Try the Politics and Religion forum.


No I was not being facetious Woodduck. Atheist churches exist:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21319945

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/08/atheist-church-sunday-assembly_n_2432911.html

And atheists recognise the spiritual:

http://www.centerforabetterworld.com/SpiritualAtheism/about-spiritual-atheism.htm


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## SiegendesLicht

DavidA said:


> I think it's interesting that in their search for the 'spiritual' atheists are actually holding their own church services!


And what music do they play there?


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## Bulldog

SiegendesLicht said:


> And what music do they play there?


No matter what they play, you won't find this atheist at any church service. This trend, if it actually is a trend, is just a way for atheists to gather together and feel some sense of community; however, I don't want a sense of community.


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## DavidA

Bulldog said:


> No matter what they play, you won't find this atheist at any church service. This trend, if it actually is a trend, is just a way for atheists to gather together and feel some sense of community; however, I don't want a sense of community.


You don't go to the pub then?


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## millionrainbows

Morimur said:


> I am a Christian (albeit an immature one) and I simply began craving God centered music. I also listen to secular music so long as it's not blasphemous, of course.


What kind of a Christian are you? Do you believe that Christ was the son of God? Do you believe in the virgin birth?


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## millionrainbows

Atheists take note: as mavericks, you are alone and powerless, but there is a solution! Join the Church of Scientology. You can be an atheist and join, it doesn't matter.

This way, you will have all the advantages of membership in a growing, powerful, organized religion. You will have others to back you up, and do things with; you can ostracize people if they leave, and completely shun them! Scientology is becoming more powerful, too, and has lots of money and influence.


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## millionrainbows

Woodduck said:


> Please do not continue to inject remarks about other people's religious convictions or practices into this discussion, unless you are prepared to have those people do the same to yours - which they probably won't do, since most people are aware that there are more appropriate places for it. Try the Politics and Religion forum.


I respect your atheism, Woodduck. I realize that someone's beliefs (or non-beliefs) are a sacred thing.


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## millionrainbows

What if the "spirit" just an interference pattern like a hologram? William Burroughs has a similar idea; that the soul, or spirit is magnetic in nature, and this is how it reincarnates. 

Thus, he surmised, "absolute soul death" is possible. This means that when the atomic bomb went off at Hiroshima, a strong magnetic pulse was released, as in all atomic bombs, which destroyed the magnetic souls of the victims, so they died an 'absolute soul death' and have no chance for reincarnation.


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## millionrainbows

SiegendesLicht said:


> When I was a Christian, I listened to "Christian rock" and CCM (contemporary Christian). Now that I am an atheist, I listen to Bach and Handel.


Now that I am an atheist, I listen to John Cage's 4'33".


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## millionrainbows

DavidA said:


> Exactly the point I've just made to Woodduck. was are spiritual beings whether we like it or not! :lol:


You're a ghost, man, whether you like it or not!

Reminds me of that John Cale song: "You're a ghost, la la la la la la la la la..."


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## millionrainbows

DavidA said:


> You are of course sharing your feelings as a musician rather than as a worshipper. Fair enough. It certainly depends how you see the word 'spiritual'. Your use of it is certainly very different from the context I would use it in relationship to Christian worship. Can I just point out too that Augustus Toplady was a poet rather than a musician. He only produced the words. The point however is that Christian worship is not meant to be a great musical experience a la Beethoven. It is something that ordinary people - musicians and non-musicians - can join in to worship God. I am all for excellence in worship music (the church I attend uses musicians many of whom, are professional outside of church) but music in church should never be a thing in itself. If it is then we as a church are missing the point of worship.


That should mean that, conversely, religious music is not "just" religious music, but must be used with a specific purpose, in worship, by believers. It is intended to be used as a tool to enhance one's beliefs and faith and spiritual awareness.

If a non-believer listens to it, it's not the same; it's inferior, or it's a tool not being used for its intended purpose. Am I right?


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## millionrainbows

deprofundis said:


> Here is my anecdote ,bare whit me im not lying, i have been attack by at least two demons in my life , i have clear memory of what iseen happen , once i was struck in the middle of the chest by this
> formless entity i felt a blow, i was 25 yrs , 10 years later way mutch worst would happen...


Actually, that was your heart spasming from all the amphetamines you were on. The demons were hallucinations, symptomatic of amphetamine psychosis.



deprofundis said:


> I received death treat like your are gonna die soon or die soon enought, on a chat room.For a long time i were paranoid of what could happen to me, someone did goetia or something and sent me another demon or satan himself no sub-alterne.


That's cool, as long as these voices didn't tell you to shoot people in a theatre.



deprofundis said:


> So enought detail of these awfull story, i dont wont to remenber what i saw.Imagine seeing your best friend possessed or your nephew well this happen to me...


As Jean-Paul Sartre said, "Hell is other people."



deprofundis said:


> ...and i did not ask a pastor to save my sorry a** from danger, i fought this evil force whit method i wont mention here...


Did you wrestle it? What was it wearing? What were you wearing?



deprofundis said:


> ...and it work the demon vanished in thin air in black smoke it smell like sulfur, enought detail, allready said enought.


You shouldn't smoke in bed.



deprofundis said:


> But this is what that lead me to religious music, life experience whit whitchraft or sorcery whatever someone called it.


I call it "abuse."



deprofundis said:


> I became a beleiver, but before beleiving in a god or whatever you most beleive in you, im proud of how strong i wear when i face true evil, and religious music remind me of my victory against the forces of evil( and please people im not making this up, im not insane or on weed).


So, this story has a happy ending! Good triumphs over evil!



deprofundis said:


> This was my testimony about religious music, what brought me there.
> 
> :tiphat:


Could I write a screenplay based on this?


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## DavidA

millionrainbows said:


> Now that I am an atheist, I listen to John Cage's 4'33".


The ultimate meaningless piece!


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## Troy

In answer to the original question "What lead(s) you to religious music?" It's kind of ubiquitous in the choral community. As an atheist in a symphonic choir I don't remember the last time I sang in a major secular work.

I have to say that I do love the great music that has resulted from composers expressing their religious beliefs and I believe we would be poorer if this rich tradition did not exist.


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## manyene

We have had one or two people in our choir making similar objections to singing religious music. However, if you move solely to secular music, you land up with folk tunes or SATB arrangements of Beatles songs etc etc that are better left to the original artists & format.


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## Steatopygous

Woodduck said:


> Everyone has his own personal experience of religion. I would never comment on that. But since this is still a music thread and not the politics and religion thread, I feel it's appropriate to comment on religious music as music, and say that, for me, even at the age of sixteen, there was a greater spiritual depth and power in Beethoven's late quartets or Wagner's _Parsifal_ than there was in "Ein feste Burg" or "When the Roll is Called Up Yonder." As you say, in church the specific music used is not the point. But to a young musician it may be very significant and worth telling his mother about! And it may continue to be significant to an old artist who doesn't see spiritual matters as the monopoly of religious dogmas and institutions. And that's all I'll say about religion.
> 
> As far as church music is concerned, there are some magnificent hymns which I love. Alas, the sort of church I was taken to was more fond of Haldor Lillenas and Augustus M. Toplady than of George Herbert and Ralph Vaughan Williams. Musically speaking, I came up from the slums!


You are right of course about Beethoven's Late Quartets contrasted with When the Roll is Called up Yonder. But there is one very significant difference you are overlooking: Most of us can't sing a Beethoven quartet, not even one of the parts. The hymn is designed for participation, and singing is something I enjoy very much, especially with others. Of course this doesn't have to be religious, but it seems to have started that way and is still potent in worship. There is a connecting/spiritual element to it.


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## Steatopygous

Re previous, sorry, I should have read on. I see DavidA made the same point. I have just come to this thread. 
So there are two sorts of religious music, it seems to me - those designed for performance and those designed for participation. Hymns obviously belong to the latter, the Verdi Requiem to the former. Both sorts can be enjoyed by religious and non-religious alike (my non-religious sister loves singing hymns and gospel music). 
Someone asked above, if you are listening to music explicitly designed to glorify God and promote worship and yu are an atheist are you missing out on something. This interests me, and is complicated. Clearly you are missing out on something intended, but that doesn't mean you are not getting something wonderful from it, including elevated feelings similar to those the believer may feel. Bach is not just for believers. It seems to me that what many do miss on is less appreciation of the music (and its architecture, technique, beauty etc) than the orientation of gratitude that I think is one of the fundamental themes of religion.


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## Woodduck

Steatopygous said:


> You are right of course about Beethoven's Late Quartets contrasted with When the Roll is Called up Yonder. But there is one very significant difference you are overlooking: Most of us can't sing a Beethoven quartet, not even one of the parts. The hymn is designed for participation, and singing is something I enjoy very much, especially with others. Of course this doesn't have to be religious, but it seems to have started that way and is still potent in worship. There is a connecting/spiritual element to it.


It's not that I overlooked that. It's just a different subject, and one that isn't relevant to my life at present. But, as far as participation goes, I was a singer in my younger days and have sung a huge variety of music - religious and not, as simple as hymns and as complex as Bach, Handel, Beethoven, and Brahms. I do treasure memories of making music with others, whether as a soloist in church or at weddings, as a member of a madrigal chamber group, or as a chorus member performing _Les Troyens_ with the Boston Opera or the _Missa Solemnis_ with the National Symphony. I was speaking of music as music and what it communicates to me, without reference to extramusical uses and associations, liturgical or otherwise.


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## DavidA

Of course the quality of music found in churches has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not the gospel is true. As a believer and also a music lover I know that while good music aids my enjoyment of worship, it has no bearing whatever on my faith, as faith is not subjective but objective, based on my belief as a scientist that the universe is rational and my conviction as historian that Jesus rose from the dead. Hence while music is important to me, it has no bearing whatever on my faith itself.


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## Delicious Manager

I am an atheist and religion has no part in my life whatsoever. However, I can derive a great deal of pleasure from religious works. As has been said before, great music is always great music.


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## Ilarion

To the originator of this thread:

If I had the authority to give the Nobel Peace Prize for a thread like this I would do so - BRAVO!!!:tiphat::clap::cheers:

I began singing at 4 years of age - the music director loved JSBach and the A Capella works of Jakob Handl(Gallus). So, it was totally natural to embrace great music.


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## Steatopygous

DavidA said:


> Of course the quality of music found in churches has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not the gospel is true. As a believer and also a music lover I know that while good music aids my enjoyment of worship, it has no bearing whatever on my faith, as faith is not subjective but objective, based on my belief as a scientist that the universe is rational and my conviction as historian that Jesus rose from the dead. Hence while music is important to me, it has no bearing whatever on my faith itself.


This post surprises me a little. I suppose it depends what mean by "bearing". Music no doubt is not foundational, the epistemological centre of your faith, but unless your life is compartmentalised far beyond the normal, it has a bearing. It can inform your faith, reinforce your faith, or enrich your faith. If you say it does none of those things, I am in no position to argue, but I would be surprised. In passing I refer you to this remark by Georg Solti: "Mozart makes you believe in God -- much more than going to church -- because it cannot be by chance that such a phenomenon arrives into this world and then passes after [35 years], leaving behind such an unbounded number of unparalleled masterpieces."


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## Ingélou

DavidA said:


> Of course the quality of music found in churches has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not the gospel is true. As a believer and also a music lover I know that while good music aids my enjoyment of worship, it has no bearing whatever on my faith, as faith is not subjective but objective, based on my belief as a scientist that the universe is rational and my conviction as historian that Jesus rose from the dead. Hence while music is important to me, it has no bearing whatever on my faith itself.





Steatopygous said:


> This post surprises me a little. I suppose it depends what mean by "bearing". Music no doubt is not foundational, the epistemological centre of your faith, but unless your life is compartmentalised far beyond the normal, it has a bearing. It can inform your faith, reinforce your faith, or enrich your faith. If you say it does none of those things, I am in no position to argue, but I would be surprised. In passing I refer you to this remark by Georg Solti: "Mozart makes you believe in God -- much more than going to church -- because it cannot be by chance that such a phenomenon arrives into this world and then passes after [35 years], leaving behind such an unbounded number of unparalleled masterpieces."


I didn't come to faith, or stay with it, through music - which doesn't mean that good music, sacred or secular, doesn't intensify or reinforce my beliefs. So I think you are both right, gentlemen. :tiphat: :tiphat:

I can't be sure, but I think that had I remained an atheist, as I was at university, I would still have found glorious uplift in the baroque and Eastern Orthodox sacred music, once I'd discovered them. They would still have spoken to me, and I can quite see that non-believers can still find something special in sacred music.


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## DavidA

Steatopygous said:


> This post surprises me a little. I suppose it depends what mean by "bearing". Music no doubt is not foundational, the epistemological centre of your faith, but unless your life is compartmentalised far beyond the normal, it has a bearing. It can inform your faith, reinforce your faith, or enrich your faith. If you say it does none of those things, I am in no position to argue, but I would be surprised. In passing I refer you to this remark by Georg Solti: "Mozart makes you believe in God -- much more than going to church -- because it cannot be by chance that such a phenomenon arrives into this world and then passes after [35 years], leaving behind such an unbounded number of unparalleled masterpieces."


As Solti didn't go to church I don't know how informed his remark was. Of course the creative ability of mankind leads one to believe in a Creator, which is I think what Solti was getting at. Actually it is not music that enriches faith but faith that enriches every other part of life including music. I find faith enriches the whole thought process both in the humanities and the sciences because it provides a far broader perspective. 
Interestingly music did play a part in my wife finding faith. She was brought up an atheist but started her journey towards faith by singing in the St Matthew Passion at the Festival Hall (in the choir btw). But the night she found faith was at a Gospel church where they sang the old hymns! I think the Almighty has a sense of humour!


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## breakup

Ingélou said:


> *Maybe because I am a Christian, I find a lot of religious music to be boring or irritating - perversely getting the feeling that I'm expected to wow over something simply because it is religious; or the music reminds me, uncomfortably, that I have a short attention span when it comes to prayer!*
> 
> But religious music that is both dramatic and devotional gets my attention: Vivaldi's Stabat Mater, unearthly medieval Marian canticles, Lully's Te Deum, Rachmaninov's Liturgy of St John Chrysostom, Biber's Rosary Sonatas, Handel's I know that my Redeemer Liveth, Taize chants, the Missa Luba.
> 
> If religious music has the wow factor *as music*, then the spiritual side of it kicks in, and I find it 'double-plus good'.


I tend to feel this way about "Praise Music" it is so gushy and feel good that I sometimes just can't stand it, it is also quite repetitive, saying the same thing over and over again. There is a family group that comes into the service once a month and does special music, the children's sermon, and sometimes a Sunday school lesson after the service. They do a lot of Praise music and sometimes teach songs to the children, which wouldn't be so bad, except that they call for the adults to join in.

Praise Music and some of the christian forums that I have browsed (usually only once) make me think of something said by the musician at our wedding. She was attending seminary, and of her fellow students she said "They are so Heavenly minded, that they are no Earthly good."


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## Steatopygous

DavidA said:


> As Solti didn't go to church I don't know how informed his remark was. Of course the creative ability of mankind leads one to believe in a Creator, which is I think what Solti was getting at. *Actually it is not music that enriches faith but faith that enriches every other part of life including music.* I find faith enriches the whole thought process both in the humanities and the sciences because it provides a far broader perspective.
> Interestingly music did play a part in my wife finding faith. She was brought up an atheist but started her journey towards faith by singing in the St Matthew Passion at the Festival Hall (in the choir btw).* But the night she found faith was at a Gospel church where they sang the old hymns! I think the Almighty has a sense of humour!*


REPLY
1. A very interesting thought, which I will chew on for a while. I suppose they could be said to be mutually reinforcing.
2. No doubt about that. But there's nothing wrong with (many of) the old hymns. I loathe the pop stuff found in many evangelical churches. It reminds me of really awful secular pop music except it's not as good. Putting a few hallelujahs or awesomes or whatever into it doesn't change that. 
I call Patrick Baker to the witness stand:
Dear Lord and Father of Mankind
Forgive our foolish ways;
For most of us, when asked our mind,
Admit we still most pleasure find
In hymns of ancient days,
In hymns of ancient days.

The simple lyrics, for a start,
Of many a modern song,
Are far too trite to touch the heart;
Enshrine no poetry, no art;
And go on much too long,
And go on much too long.


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## DavidA

breakup said:


> I tend to feel this way about "Praise Music" it is so gushy and feel good that I sometimes just can't stand it, it is also quite repetitive, saying the same thing over and over again. There is a family group that comes into the service once a month and does special music, the children's sermon, and sometimes a Sunday school lesson after the service. They do a lot of Praise music and sometimes teach songs to the children, which wouldn't be so bad, except that they call for the adults to join in.
> 
> Praise Music and some of the christian forums that I have browsed (usually only once) make me think of something said by the musician at our wedding. She was attending seminary, and of her fellow students she said "*They are so Heavenly minded, that they are no Earthly good."*


Frankly this is a nonsense phrase used to denigrate Christians by people who usually are ignorant of Christian mission. Having travelled the world and seen Christian's involvement in helping the poor, feeding the hungry, housing orphans, drilling water holes, building medical centres, etc, makes me realise such comments are totally facile.


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## DavidA

Steatopygous said:


> DavidA said:
> 
> 
> 
> As Solti didn't go to church I don't know how informed his remark was. Of course the creative ability of mankind leads one to believe in a Creator, which is I think what Solti was getting at. *Actually it is not music that enriches faith but faith that enriches every other part of life including music.* I find faith enriches the whole thought process both in the humanities and the sciences because it provides a far broader perspective.
> Interestingly music did play a part in my wife finding faith. She was brought up an atheist but started her journey towards faith by singing in the St Matthew Passion at the Festival Hall (in the choir btw).* But the night she found faith was at a Gospel church where they sang the old hymns! I think the Almighty has a sense of humour!*
> 
> 
> 
> REPLY
> 1. A very interesting thought, which I will chew on for a while. I suppose they could be said to be mutually reinforcing.
> 2. No doubt about that. But there's nothing wrong with (many of) the old hymns. I loathe the pop stuff found in many evangelical churches. It reminds me of really awful secular pop music except it's not as good. Putting a few hallelujahs or awesomes or whatever into it doesn't change that.
> I call Patrick Baker to the witness stand:
> Dear Lord and Father of Mankind
> Forgive our foolish ways;
> For most of us, when asked our mind,
> Admit we still most pleasure find
> In hymns of ancient days,
> In hymns of ancient days.
> 
> The simple lyrics, for a start,
> Of many a modern song,
> Are far too trite to touch the heart;
> Enshrine no poetry, no art;
> And go on much too long,
> And go on much too long.
Click to expand...

Sorry but that parody of a hymn you are quoting is also facile. And misses the point. The songs that are sung in modern day church are for better or worse aimed to to reach out to a modern congregation of young people. When John Newton Wrote amazing Grace he didn't write it for a bunch of intellectuals or musicians of the day he wrote it for the working class people in his church, many of whom could not read or write. Similarly modern songs that are sung in church are written for people in mind who listen to Pop music or indeed the lighter kind of music. The great tradition of wrting hymns was to write them to communicate with the ordinary working class people of the day. Most people who go to church do not listen to Bach or Handel (shocking but it's a fact) any more than most people in society today. So if I want to great music I can listen to Beethoven or Mozart. If I want to worship God with people of similar faith, most of whom are not musicians, I sing worship songs. It is my experience of faith that helps me enjoy them as I'm worshipping God, not the music. As in everything some of the modern songs are good and will endure. Some are not so good and will soon be discarded. But worship is an experience of faith which music enhances not the other way round.


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## breakup

DavidA said:


> Frankly this is a nonsense phrase used to denigrate Christians by people who usually are ignorant of Christian mission. Having travelled the world and seen Christian's involvement in helping the poor, feeding the hungry, housing orphans, drilling water holes, building medical centres, etc, makes me realise such comments are totally facile.


Whooooooooooosh.


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## Xaltotun

Religious classical music at its finest is great classical music, plus something extra. I like both the great classical music, and the something extra.


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## Steatopygous

DavidA said:


> Sorry but that parody of a hymn you are quoting is also facile. And misses the point. The songs that are sung in modern day church are for better or worse aimed to to reach out to a modern congregation of young people. When John Newton Wrote amazing Grace he didn't write it for a bunch of intellectuals or musicians of the day he wrote it for the working class people in his church, many of whom could not read or write. Similarly modern songs that are sung in church are written for people in mind who listen to Pop music or indeed the lighter kind of music. The great tradition of wrting hymns was to write them to communicate with the ordinary working class people of the day. Most people who go to church do not listen to Bach or Handel (shocking but it's a fact) any more than most people in society today. So if I want to great music I can listen to Beethoven or Mozart. If I want to worship God with people of similar faith, most of whom are not musicians, I sing worship songs. It is my experience of faith that helps me enjoy them as I'm worshipping God, not the music. As in everything some of the modern songs are good and will endure. Some are not so good and will soon be discarded. But worship is an experience of faith which music enhances not the other way round.


Not much I can say, except that for me music (that offends me) can also impede worship and often does. That you may say is my problem, and so it is, but it remains for me a problem. Secondly - and this claim may be controversial, but it shouldn't be - trite music is often accompanied by even triter me-centred words rather than God-worshipping words or words that teach. Today, as much as centuries ago, we learn our theology by our worship songs (few people read the Bible regularly now, or have studied theology).
Here is another case for the prosecution, from a book by David Wells:

I need you to hold me
Like my daddy never could.
And I need you to show me
How resting in your arms can be so good.
I need you to walk with me
Hand in hand, we'll run and play
I need you to talk to me
Tell me again you'll stay.

This is much worse than fatuous. It teaches damaging stuff, reducing God to a lover or playmate.


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## DavidA

Steatopygous said:


> Not much I can say, except that for me music (that offends me) can also impede worship and often does. That you may say is my problem, and so it is, but it remains for me a problem. Secondly - and this claim may be controversial, but it shouldn't be - trite music is often accompanied by even triter me-centred words rather than God-worshipping words or words that teach. Today, as much as centuries ago, we learn our theology by our worship songs (few people read the Bible regularly now, or have studied theology).
> Here is another case for the prosecution, from a book by David Wells:
> 
> I need you to hold me
> Like my daddy never could.
> And I need you to show me
> How resting in your arms can be so good.
> I need you to walk with me
> Hand in hand, we'll run and play
> I need you to talk to me
> Tell me again you'll stay.
> 
> This is much worse than fatuous. It teaches damaging stuff, reducing God to a lover or playmate.


OK mate, but to give possibly the most trite example of a modern worship song and apply it generally is really not the point. It is frankly intellectually dishonest. I could do the same with the worst examples of older songs. Today as yesterday there are good and no so good worship songs.


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## Steatopygous

Hang on. Now you are accusing me of intellectual dishonesty, which is ramping up the debate very considerably. I never said it was typical. I would readily admit it's extreme. I do however think the general standard of theology contained in the worship songs is well below previous centuries, and would be happy to discuss why I think this under normal circumstances.
Given the attitude expressed above, I don't think I want to discuss this with you any further. Insults are not really the point. I can find them on a lot of forums. Over and out.


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## DavidA

Steatopygous said:


> Hang on. Now you are accusing me of intellectual dishonesty, which is ramping up the debate very considerably. I never said it was typical. I would readily admit it's extreme. I do however think the general standard of theology contained in the worship songs is well below previous centuries, and would be happy to discuss why I think this under normal circumstances.
> Given the attitude expressed above, I don't think I want to discuss this with you any further. Insults are not really the point. I can find them on a lot of forums. Over and out.


Sorry but you quoted it as 'another are for the prosecution' as if it were typical. Now you have admitted it is extreme which you didn't do before when you first quoted it. I just pointed out what I consider was the fallacy. While I agree there are some great songs frm yesteryear, packed with theology, the problem is that the unchurched (or even the churched) person is unlikely to understand them, as the language is often dated.
I remember once when we sang, 
"Let every kindred, every tribe,
On this terrestrial ball...."
A young person came up to me and asked, "What is a kindred? And a terrestrial ball?"


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## ArtMusic

I came across this magnificent church music by the great Antonio Vivaldi today. This is surely to lead anyone to church music,


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## Ferrariman601

I found religious music in a bit of a roundabout manner. I attended Catholic schools for most of my primary and secondary years, but, as I matured and learned more about the faith, I eventually came to reject it categorically. We were, however, given a fair bit of musical education at my elementary school, so, naturally, we learned liturgical music (modern), so the context has always been familiar. When I went on to university, I took a music theory course which reawakened what I remembered from my younger days, and also, for the first time in my adult life, exposed me to "real" music (classical and romantic-era composers). I fell in love with Mozart and the Haydn brothers, and, upon researching more of Mozart's works, I found the Requiem, which astounded me from the very first note. As I've been a longtime student of the Latinate languages, I understood the text of the piece, so that also helped me to identify with it, but, mostly, it was the music - the initial and striking superficial level of beauty, the underlying sophistication in its relative simplicity, and then the variety of forms and textures present within the piece. After I heard Mozart's Requiem, I researched more of his liturgical music - the vespers, short masses, the missae solemne, and of course the enigmatic C Minor Mass. Pure love.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Haydn's Creation and Handel's Messiah, it all went from there .


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## Flamme

Quest for purity and depth. Sometimes.


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## brotagonist

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Haydn's Creation and Handel's Messiah, it all went from there .


I love Haydn's Creation  but I haven't heard the Handel.


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## Vaneyes

brotagonist said:


> I love Haydn's Creation  *but I haven't heard the Handel.*


Similarly, I'm the only one who hasn't seen The Sound of Music. You know, "The hills are alive...."


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## Steatopygous

I was nine when the Sound of Music came to Wellington, where I grew up. I went to it three times, having fallen in love with Julie Andrews AND the eldest daughter. But I remember the paper ran a story about a women who went to every session - more than 50 of them. You could smoke in cinemas in those days (n ot that I did at nine). 
Messiah is simply superb: worshipful, dramatic, beautiful, perfectly paced, brilliantly conceived (Charles Jennens, the librettist deserves great credit). I go every year live, and listen as well. "He was despised" (as sung by Kathleen Ferrier) is perhaps the most worshipful music I know. And don't miss "The trumpet shall sound" or "I know that my redeemer liveth" or any of the choruses or .... 
Well, you get the picture, Brotagonist.


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## brotagonist

Steatopygous said:


> Well, you get the picture, Brotagonist.


Too vividly, perhaps  I think I'm ready to give Messiah a try this Christmas, since I have been more open to opera and oratorio-even a little choral-this past year.

I do recall when I was in high school and my friends all smoked and I didn't. Clouds of smoke filled the cinemas and I'd leave with stinging eyes, a rasping throat and a splitting head  I was pretty glad when smoking in public spaces was banned.


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## Vaneyes

Steatopygous said:


> I was nine when the Sound of Music came to Wellington, where I grew up. I went to it three times, having fallen in love with Julie Andrews AND the eldest daughter. But I remember the paper ran a story about a women who went to every session - more than 50 of them. You could smoke in cinemas in those days (n ot that I did at nine).
> Messiah is simply superb: worshipful, dramatic, beautiful, perfectly paced, brilliantly conceived (Charles Jennens, the librettist deserves great credit). I go every year live, and listen as well. "He was despised" (as sung by Kathleen Ferrier) is perhaps the most worshipful music I know. And don't miss "The trumpet shall sound" or "I know that my redeemer liveth" or any of the choruses or ....
> Well, you get the picture, Brotagonist.


Thanks for that SOM tale. It has cemented further avoidance.

Re Messiah, I only listen to the Howthehellareyuh Chorus. Cheers. :devil:


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## breakup

DavidA said:


> Frankly this is a nonsense phrase used to denigrate Christians by people who usually are ignorant of Christian mission. *Having travelled the world and seen Christian's involvement in helping the poor, feeding the hungry, housing orphans, drilling water holes, building medical centres, etc,* makes me realise such comments are totally facile.


And this statement totally supports my point, if you don't see that, then you don't understand my point.


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## AClockworkOrange

Haydn, Beethoven, Saint-Säens, Schubert, Berlioz, Bruckner, Bach (JS & CPE) etc - all Composers of beautiful music. I found the choral works via the Composer's works in other areas.

I am not a religious person to say the least. However, that isn't to say I do not appreciate the beauty of this music and the performances by those involved.


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## breakup

this,






and this


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## science

I grew up religious so I always had religious music of my tradition around me, and some of it, such as "The Old Rugged Cross," "Amazing Grace," "Just As I Am," and "In the Garden" really meant a lot to me because it evoked what I felt. Later, I changed traditions in small part because the music of the Orthodox Church also moved me very deeply.

Now that I have no religion, when I listen to the religious music of the world, whether it's Buddhist chant or Sufi hymns or African-American gospel or classical music (though I'm not sure how much "sacred" classical music really is an expression of spirituality), I try not to be limited to my own personal feelings, but to hear others' spirituality in the music with which they express it. I try to consider nothing human alien to myself.


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