# Is the complexity in Bach's late music unmatched?



## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Composer and broadcaster Howard Goodall makes this assertion:

_Bach was probably the cleverest composer who ever lived; the mind-boggling complexity of much of his late music, in particular, *has yet to be matched by any composer*._ (The Guardian - 'What pop music owes to the classical masters' - (my emphasis))

Is he right? Why?

The article itself links Schubert and Mozart to the likes of Adele and Lennon and McCartney and contrasts such with the music of Beethoven, Berlioz, Liszt and Bach. I found it very interesting - so feel free to comment on this too.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

janxharris said:


> Composer and broadcaster Howard Goodall makes this assertion:
> 
> _Bach was probably the cleverest composer who ever lived; the mind-boggling complexity of much of his late music, in particular, *has yet to be matched by any composer*._ (The Guardian - 'What pop music owes to the classical masters' - (my emphasis))
> 
> ...


I find The Baroque and Classical Eras to be more spiritually divine where I find Romantic works to be spiritually human and flawed. I love all three, but I don't agree that Mozart and Schubert and "pop". I can see the connection to pleasing the crowd though, Mozart did do that.


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2018)

I do believe it's unmatched, at least it is unmatched stylistically. It's pretty much impossible to compare one style of one time period to another style of another time period, as these are all just aesthetic trends in the end. Bach's approach to the craft, the tools and techniques of composition in his later works are akin to Milton Babbitt's approach to treating music composition as a field of research. The similarities lie in the fact that they are both dealing with the complex organisation of a 'collection' (be it a combination of pitches and durations to form a motif or theme of Bach where he then applies permutations, or a matrix that organises various elements of a composition and generates permutations of it). Unless you want me to go all Theodor Adorno in this thread, I'm just going to cut myself short here and say that this is where the similarities end. 

But I think a point can be made about Bach's interest in organising permutations of limited material in a complex, holistic way. That idea alone can be seen in the works of other composers.

However, this is certainly not the only way to be 'complex' in music.

Great thread, btw. It really gets the brain juices flowing.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

I disagree with the article in general. She makes it sounds as if Dvořák borrowed his whole 9th symphony from African-American tunes and there is nothing original in it. I would like to see his exact sources of inspiration then, ie the concerete African tunes that he stole
I agree that Bach's music is the most complex, most balanced music ever written. Listen repeatedly to the Art of Fugue till you get it. It can take over 10 listenings.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

shirime said:


> I do believe it's unmatched, at least it is unmatched stylistically. It's pretty much impossible to compare one style of one time period to another style of another time period, as these are all just aesthetic trends in the end. Bach's approach to the craft, the tools and techniques of composition in his later works are akin to Milton Babbitt's approach to treating music composition as a field of research. The similarities lie in the fact that they are both dealing with the complex organisation of a 'collection' (be it a combination of pitches and durations to form a motif or theme of Bach where he then applies permutations, or a matrix that organises various elements of a composition and generates permutations of it). Unless you want me to go all Theodor Adorno in this thread, I'm just going to cut myself short here and say that this is where the similarities end.
> 
> But I think a point can be made about Bach's interest in organising permutations of limited material in a complex, holistic way. That idea alone can be seen in the works of other composers.
> 
> ...


Would brain juice be blood? :lol:


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Would brain juice be blood? :lol:


no, it is called cerebrospinal fluid


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

One thing that gives some of Bach’s work the appearance of complexity is that he wrote collections which explore, more or less systematically, styles and forms. 

Did that happen later, with sets of violin or piano etudes for example? Or Beethoven's symphonies, piano sonatas and quartets? Or in Ludus Tonalis? Or in Grisey’s Esapaces Acoustiques? Or Barraqué’s Broch works? Or The Ring Cycle? Or The Diabelli Variations? Or late Feldman? 

And did it happen before, in Ockeghem’s Missa Cuisuvis Toni? Or the music that Frescobaldi and Georg Muffat and Biber published in their lifetimes? Or Titelouze’s and Scheidemann’s Magnificat cycles? Or Byrd’s Pavans and Galliards in My Lady Nevell’s book? Or Purcell’s viol fantasias? Or Arauxo’s Facultad Organica?


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

I'm inclined to think so. Certainly Bach could fit the most complexity into the shortest space of time and on the least number of instruments. Perhaps, though, in terms of sheer organisation and 'orchestral logistics' to coin a phrase, I think the entire Ring Cycle is on a scale of complexity and (more miraculously) _coherence_ that's probably unsurpassed.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I agree with the article in pretty much every point. When you analyze Handel, Mozart, Schubert, and even much of Beethoven, there are a lot of simple chord progressions much like in pop. Psychedelic and prog rock actually has more variety in chords. But what those master composers did within those chord progressions is of course beyond a lot of pop music in terms of invention.


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## Eusebius12 (Mar 22, 2010)

Goodall is much more like pop, both in his music and his analysis, than Beethoven. It is impossible to quantify complexity in music, especially in an era of 'new complexity'. Are we talking about complexity of aural strands, or use of coherent polyphony? I feel that Bach employs polyphony more effectively than any baroque/classical/romantic composer. Is he then, 'better'? In many ways I feel that he is. Goodall's fairly superficial take on it doesn't advance the sum of knowledge all that much, though. We can point to Bach's salient virtues and trump his supremacy if we wish, but is a Brandenburg Concerto really more 'complex' than the Eroica? In certain ways yes, in certain ways no. Does it matter?


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

shirime said:


> ...Bach's approach to the craft, the tools and techniques of composition in his later works are akin to Milton Babbitt's approach to treating music composition as a field of research...


You appear be describing what I experience whilst listening to The Art of Fugue. It sounds like an academic exercise in how many ways a melody can be decorated.

I keep listening to see if there is expression in his music that goes beyond the mere notes, but nothing has come to me so far.


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