# Piano Concerto E Minor Work in Progress



## Xenol

Hi guys! This is my first contrinution here so be kind 
Ive been working on this piece as one of three for my A level Music (The other two being an organ fugue and a string quartet) since september, so it's obviously not close to finishing yet (the accompaniment just sort of dissapears where I havn't got that far  ) I just wanted to test the waters and see what you guys thought. Ill try to get a score up tomorrow for you.


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https://soundcloud.com/emperor_xenol%2Fpiano-concerto-in-e-minor-wip

C&C welcome and wanted!


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## Xenol

Heres the score if any of you are interested. remember its a WIP.

http://www.mediafire.com/view/u6r15a59gvpbws9/Piano Sonata In E Minor - Full Score.pdf


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## Xenol

I've made alot of alterations that Ill post tomorrow including:

More and better accompianment
The beginnings of a cadenza
various other changes.

 - not that anybody seems to care.


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## violadude

Sorry, things around here can be pretty slow, especially if you aren't already well known.

First of all, scoring issue, the piano is usually above the strings in a piano concerto, not at the very bottom.

Next of all, you should try modulating or doing something more interesting with the harmony. It's pretty easy to get stuck in a harmonic rut and just spend 10 minutes of the piece riffing in e minor but it gets really stale really fast. When I'm listening to this piece, I mostly just hear a barrage of e minor based arpeggios/figurations and not much else, to be perfectly honest. 

But anyway, ya I would start with adding some more interesting harmony or modulating.


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## Xenol

Thanks for commenting to start!  As it goes on the key front this very day infact I've added a modulation into G major. The scoring issue is easy enough to fix, and thanks for letting me know  Similar story with the harmony, Alot of the accompaniment is quite skeletal right now as I work out the structure.


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## Xenol

UPDATE!
Been away for a while, heres what I've done:

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https://soundcloud.com/emperor_xenol%2Fpiano-concerto-in-e-minor
 Score will follow next week.


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## Vasks

So far, it's a three minute song for piano and orchestra; a concerto it's not.


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## Xenol

I know, since it's my composition for A level, a 25 minute piece is somewhat out of the question. I intended this as a theoretical extract from a much longer piece. (Probably a 4 movement with this being the start of the 3rd) But apart from your pedantic problems with the nomenclature of my piece, perhaps you could actually say something about, you know, the music.


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## Xenol

You lot are useless.


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## Mahlerian

There are several reasons your work here has not attracted much comment.

First, and *most importantly*, it is not finished. We can't complete your music for you, we can't tell you where it's supposed to go, and we can't address any major problems it may have until we know what you had in mind for the whole thing. Listening to and critiquing a half-finished piece of music is like critiquing a portrait with only the hair and forehead; how should we know if the face is painted well?

Second, what you have here isn't all that distinctive from what a lot of other composers-in-training on the internet are putting out. Perhaps you should try for something less ambitious than a concerto to start with, so that you can find ways to integrate a more compelling melodic and harmonic language.

Third, it really _doesn't_ sound like a concerto. The writing is in fact more song-like and closed-off in its phrasing, whereas you want to have open phrases to keep a musical narrative going.


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## Xenol

Well as the piece is going thats as close to it's finished form as it's getting because, I quote myself:

"*a 25 minute piece is somewhat out of the question. I intended this as a theoretical extract from a much longer piece.* (Probably a 4 movement with this being the start of the 3rd)"

Secondly, thats like saying that we should ignore half of Hayden and Mozart's work because it's what everyone was doing at the time. Maybe people would actually start making more distinctive pieces if people like those on this forum actually gave constructive criticism rarther than just ignoring the pieces they don't like...

And thirdly, thats more like actual help and constructive criticism, but if people could perhaps spend less time complaining about the name and more talking about the bits they like and dislike in the piece it would be infinitly more helpful! 
If it really bothers you so much, then I would rename it to something more 'fitting', but that does not change the music at all does it? Half of the best overtures made are not strictly overtures, yet it doesn't stop them being good.

I can't help but think that trying to get help and advice on this forum was a grave mistake. The only types of music that are actually liked on here seem to be pretentious expressionist rubbish.


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## Torkelburger

> Well as the piece is going thats as close to it's finished form as it's getting because, I quote myself:
> a 25 minute piece is somewhat out of the question. I intended this as a theoretical extract from a much longer piece.


So it's okay for you to phone in your efforts, yet criticize others for not living up to your double-standard. I see. No, to be fair, you have no right to ask for more than what you have put in yourself (which you have already received).



> Secondly, thats like saying that we should ignore half of Hayden and Mozart's work because it's what everyone was doing at the time. Maybe people would actually start making more distinctive pieces if people like those on this forum actually gave constructive criticism rarther than just ignoring the pieces they don't like...


I strongly take issue with saying Haydn and Mozart were doing what everyone else was at the time. I'm sure I'm not the only one. That's probably the goal Mahlerian was referring to.



> And thirdly, thats more like actual help and constructive criticism, but if people could perhaps spend less time complaining about the name and more talking about the bits they like and dislike in the piece it would be infinitly more helpful!
> If it really bothers you so much, then I would rename it to something more 'fitting', but that does not change the music at all does it? Half of the best overtures made are not strictly overtures, yet it doesn't stop them being good.


The point you are missing is that the name is partly *used to judge the music* (when the name is a label as you've given it), so the *music does not stand alone*. If you had labeled the piece as a fugue, it doesn't change the music, but it means an error needs to be corrected because *there are certain criteria that needs to be met to be titled and judged as a fugue*. You can't just call something anything you want just because the label sounds complicated or sophisticated (and that's another reason what it's probably been mentioned is that naming little baby song-like miniature pieces "Concertos" and "Symphonies" is amateurish and looked down upon--although it is guaranteed to easily impress your mother and/or grandmother). Same for sonata, concerto, etc. Some titles (like overtures) are more flexible than others.


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## PetrB

Xenol said:


> Well as the piece is going thats as close to it's finished form as it's getting because, I quote myself:
> 
> "*a 25 minute piece is somewhat out of the question. I intended this as a theoretical extract from a much longer piece.* (Probably a 4 movement with this being the start of the 3rd)"
> 
> Secondly, thats like saying that we should ignore half of Hayden and Mozart's work because it's what everyone was doing at the time. Maybe people would actually start making more distinctive pieces if people like those on this forum actually gave constructive criticism rarther than just ignoring the pieces they don't like...
> 
> And thirdly, thats more like actual help and constructive criticism, but if people could perhaps spend less time complaining about the name and more talking about the bits they like and dislike in the piece it would be infinitly more helpful!
> If it really bothers you so much, then I would rename it to something more 'fitting', but that does not change the music at all does it? Half of the best overtures made are not strictly overtures, yet it doesn't stop them being good.
> 
> I can't help but think that trying to get help and advice on this forum was a grave mistake. The only types of music that are actually liked on here seem to be pretentious expressionist rubbish.


This is more like a pop piece, with its closed phrasing, configuration, 'sound and intent,' and that includes a very thin pad-like accompaniment which is not much of a contest or full harmonic accompaniment -- it is mere harmonic doubling, which is very typical of contemporary pop piano and strings pieces, and much more rare in classical music, past or present.

I am sorry you are miffed, not so sorry if your ego is clearly bruised (that goes away, and like a muscle, it gets stronger and toughens up from such 'assaults.')

It is not the length anyone is criticizing, but the content, its musical 'depth,' and the treatment of the other instruments -- those sound incidental at best. A concerto, older format or newer concertante piece, just involves a lot more interaction and dialogue than your piece does. Best not to misname a piece 'concerto' because it just sets up false expectations if it is not a concerto.

I believe thinking "concerto" gave you a false notion that what you've made is 'grand scale,' where it is not: _there is nothing wrong with writing a piece such as you have begun,_ and there is everything mistaken that anyone's early work (unless you are Mozart) is going to be much up to any high standard stuff at all. This is something anyone beginning to compose has to accept and deal with.

Too, guy, _it is just an assignment,_ and not your master's level "thesis" orchestral piece for your higher music degree.

Expect to make a lot more, similar, with small and slow degrees of improvement, whatever the genre you are writing in, because that is, for just about anyone who composes anything, the sequence / progression we all go through.

One further glance through a number of the already posted pieces in _Today's Composers_ should both convince and encourage you, i.e. many are rudimentary, not bad, not great -- some are completely dull, some fail as completely, and _those who have been at it longer_ can impress a bit with what they've made.

Best regards.


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## Xenol

PetrB said:


> This is more like a pop piece, with its closed phrasing, configuration, 'sound and intent,' and that includes a very thin pad-like accompaniment which is not much of a contest or full harmonic accompaniment -- it is mere harmonic doubling, which is very typical of contemporary pop piano and strings pieces, and much more rare in classical music, past or present.
> 
> I am sorry you are miffed, not so sorry if your ego is clearly bruised (that goes away, and like a muscle, it gets stronger and toughens up from such 'assaults.')
> 
> It is not the length anyone is criticizing, but the content, its musical 'depth,' and the treatment of the other instruments -- those sound incidental at best. A concerto, older format or newer concertante piece, just involves a lot more interaction and dialogue than your piece does. Best not to misname a piece 'concerto' because it just sets up false expectations if it is not a concerto.
> 
> I believe thinking "concerto" gave you a false notion that what you've made is 'grand scale,' where it is not: _there is nothing wrong with writing a piece such as you have begun,_ and there is everything mistaken that anyone's early work (unless you are Mozart) is going to be much up to any high standard stuff at all. This is something anyone beginning to compose has to accept and deal with.
> 
> Too, guy, _it is just an assignment,_ and not your master's level "thesis" orchestral piece for your higher music degree.
> 
> Expect to make a lot more, similar, with small and slow degrees of improvement, whatever the genre you are writing in, because that is, for just about anyone who composes anything, the sequence / progression we all go through.
> 
> One further glance through a number of the already posted pieces in _Today's Composers_ should both convince and encourage you, i.e. many are rudimentary, not bad, not great -- some are completely dull, some fail as completely, and _those who have been at it longer_ can impress a bit with what they've made.
> 
> Best regards.


Finally! some actual, helpful advice! All I need is for people to give me things to work from and I can improve! The harmonies in the strings could be improved? I can do that! Although I do take issue to saying me ego is hurt, because in this particular area I have very little, but having my pleas for advice and constructive critisism essentially thrown in my face does get my back up!

But getting useful advice out of you lot is like getting blood from a stone; all I wanted was help improving my piece and all I got was haughty superiority. Would have been so hard to say things like"Oh, chucking a Eb is there would really liven up the harmony"? simply telling me it's wrong doesn't help. Thank you PetrB, you response is actually well thought out and helps me to understand what the problem is, more so than some other people at least.

Torkelburger, I'm not even going to reply to that, it epitomises everything I take umbridge at on this forum. Your condescending tone is just plain insulting and not helpful in the slightest.


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## PetrB

Xenol said:


> Finally! some actual, helpful advice! All I need is for people to give me things to work from and I can improve! The harmonies in the strings could be improved? I can do that! Although I do take issue to saying me ego is hurt, because in this particular area I have very little, but having my pleas for advice and constructive critisism essentially thrown in my face does get my back up!
> 
> But getting useful advice out of you lot is like getting blood from a stone; all I wanted was help improving my piece and all I got was haughty superiority. Would have been so hard to say things like"Oh, chucking a Eb is there would really liven up the harmony"? simply telling me it's wrong doesn't help. Thank you PetrB, you response is actually well thought out and helps me to understand what the problem is, more so than some other people at least.
> 
> Torkelburger, I'm not even going to reply to that, it epitomises everything I take umbridge at on this forum. Your condescending tone is just plain insulting and not helpful in the slightest.


I would like to give you this little gift of advice. Since it is free, you can value it any way you like.

First, when presenting a work, or in a lesson, and at any level of competence, leave both your attitude and expectations of any praise at the door. Lessons, and critiques, whether paid for or not, should be considered _as if the meter is running, and running at a minimum of $60 an hour._

At least one young professional composer, with works commissioned and performed, has given you some straight-ahead commentary. I imagine part of that response is to what seemed like a sort of attitude of "although this is my first work it is great, and while asking for criticism I don't really want / cannot handle any." lol. With that, anyone who has taught at all (I did, for a loooong time) is going to first work at breaking that attitude, or the student's mind will be too busy with attitude to be able to listen to any constructive advice.

Here is the thing about critiques and critical comment during lessons: with that meter running (whether you are paying or not) *you would do best to not expect any praise whatsoever.* Students and anyone with a pretense of making something good who are consulting _are not there for praise or having their feelings stroked, exactly because the meter is running..._ i.e., why expect anyone to spend that valuable time, both yours and theirs, _talking about that which already works, is already 'right'?_ (Besides, 'getting it right' is pretty much what is expected of you 

I would suggest listening to more classical and less film scores, and far less (if any at all) of the more generally pop contemporary, the only reason is that music is usually _much less involved_ (vs. an aesthetics call or debate), ergo, the classical, past and present, is what you can learn the most from in studying and at least initially using as a model. (I had a little spontaneous giggle when, for example, your note activity 'doubled' by using durations half the value of the initial material -- in the quick-cut world of film scores and pop music, this is meant to generate some sense of heightened excitement, but unless really well-placed and thought out, it sounds more like a failed cartoon effect.)

In your accompaniment, next time -- since the assignment has a due date -- try for some more harmonic activity which does more than double the basic soloist part, and more voice-leading with passing tones, etc. Any more of that will generate more activity (not necessarily 'business,' but fullness) and following your nose and ear in that direction will, I think you will find, be interesting, helpful, and maybe even a bit of an exciting adventure.

Do remember, always, the higher end the study or tutoring, the less talk about what you've got right or made good on; its all talk about 'what is wrong,' and that is exactly why you are there and what the time is spent upon.


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## Xenol

I suppose if I told you that I hardly ever listen to film scores and despise most modern music it wouldn't go down well with you theory explaining my musical ignoance  I didn't come here expecting praise, If I wanted praise I would ask anyone. I came here expecting help and advice, and it took you lot 16 posts before I managed to get that. But I should have guessed so, having listened to the pieces that gain acclaim on this forum (http://www.talkclassical.com/34013-male-goat-odes.html, http://www.talkclassical.com/33864-la-mort-des-artistes.html) I can see that I was asking in the wring place.


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## Mahlerian

The question is not one of style, but how well you are accomplishing what you want to do. Both of the pieces you linked to are from people who have worked for a long time at composition and have been paid for their work. Fume about that all you want, but it really has much more to do with this than the style; a poorly conceived or worked out atonal/modernist/post-modernist piece (and on the internet, there are lots of these too) is deserving of no more acclaim than a poorly conceived or worked out piece of any other kind.

Your piece sounds like what it is, i.e. something by a composer with only the smallest bit of training or experience, and as in many other such cases, _we cannot tell whether or not you will be good at composition, but we can tell that you're not there yet_. The reason why it's difficult to give specific criticism for your piece is that it contains so little in terms of form, harmonic or melodic variation, or variety of timbre that there is almost nothing to be said but that you need to keep going and practice more.

Exposure to a wide variety of music and trying to understand its principles, what makes it work, regardless of whether you like it or not, is a good practice for anyone who wants to compose.


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## maestro267

Calling us "lot" "useless" isn't exactly going to get you far. It reeks of extreme arrogance.


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