# If Beethoven was alive today...



## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Say he never existed 1770-1827 and after Mozart, Haydn and Clementi no one filled the strange void (people felt something was missing until Brahms emerged), not even Schubert, but was born in 1970 instead. Say he had as near similar life, drunken father, deafness, but more importantly if he wrote the same music would he be as famous?

I suppose he would soon be fighting for Karl, and going fallow.


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## Brad (Mar 27, 2014)

He surely wouldn't have written the same music, but he was constantly innovating. So, I guess, he would try something breakthrough for today's music - something that hasn't been done. Whatever that is..


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Also, keep in mind that with today's technology, he might well not be deaf, and who knows what influence that had on his music and career. Furthermore, he would have had access to better shrinks than were available then, which might also have played a big role.


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## stevens (Jun 23, 2014)

If he was born 1970 he could not be Beethoven (sorry for boring comment)

(And who will become famous is arbitrarily. Its just a marketing thing)


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

> Say he had as near similar life, drunken father, deafness


Social services, talking therapy, digital hearing aids, cochlear implants...



> if he wrote the same music would he be as famous?


...completely different social and musical context...


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

If Beethoven was alive today he would get himself with speed to a qualified audiologist.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

If he was genetically the same Beethoven (say the Beethoven genius gene lay dormant for a few generations), looked the same and all that and lived in a hovel on the outskirts of Bonn with no electricity and just a piano and some ink.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

...and a quill.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Your general question, ignoring the specifics of Beethoven, is:

If two identical people were born into wholly different social, cultural, and technological environments, would they turn out the same?

No, would be my answer.


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

Nereffid said:


> Your general question, ignoring the specifics of Beethoven, is:
> 
> If two identical people were born into wholly different social, cultural, and technological environments, would they turn out the same?
> 
> No, would be my answer.


I agree, environment plays a large part not just genes


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Today, Beethoven might not have some advantages that he had in his early career:

- A paying musical job in Bonn from a quite young age.
- A thoughtful aristocrat to bankroll his move to Vienna.
- The support of rich and influential people there.
- One-on-one studies with the best, not just Haydn but others as well.
- A society that was crazy about the genre of music he wrote.

I'm sure this list could be greatly expanded!


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2014)

I reckon he'd have been a rap artist...perhaps with these guys...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Fantastischen_Vier

View attachment 47507


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## Radames (Feb 27, 2013)

brianvds said:


> Also, keep in mind that with today's technology, he might well not be deaf, and who knows what influence that had on his music and career. Furthermore, he would have had access to better shrinks than were available then, which might also have played a big role.


The shrinks would just pump him full of drugs and he would be a fat drooling vegetable on disability.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

I have a feeling of deja vu. Hasn't this same thread been done within the last few months? Or was it just a sideline in one of those infernal bashing "atonality" threads?


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

beetzart said:


> Say he never existed 1770-1827 and after Mozart, Haydn and Clementi no one filled the strange void (people felt something was missing until Brahms emerged), not even Schubert, but was born in 1970 instead. Say he had as near similar life, drunken father, deafness, but more importantly if he wrote the same music would he be as famous?
> 
> I suppose he would soon be fighting for Karl, and going fallow.


Seriously "suspend all you know" kind of premise to get on with it, but more than likely, if he wrote exactly what he wrote way back then (and he would not and could not, FYI) it would be someone writing in an original voice but considered some sort of pastiche, no matter how great it really is.

But if born later, all the life externals the same, of course he wouldn't write anything like he did. One can not even say if he would be more classical or romantic oriented in his basic musical impulses.

If born in 1970, his "Hayden" as mentor would instead be, perhaps, Luciano Berio -- to name one of many dozens of possibilities -- o.a. he could have also done some study under Nadia Boulanger or Olivier Messiaen. He was born late to take part in attending the formative hotbed of the Darmstadt School, but could easily then work with any number of composer / tutors who were strongly influenced by that.

If the storyline were to continue similarly, his earlier works would have sounded very much owing to something strongly "Berio-like" while showing a strong and clear emerging individual personality. The middle and later developed Beethoven, then, would be a similar analogy, _in context and comparison to all the other contemporary music and developments within the contemporary musical vocabulary and usages_ - _because Beethoven was a very contemporary composer in his own time, we should expect he would be a strong runner in the later contemporary time of 1970 into the future._

*This is where a lot of people just fall short with these premises -- in not understanding (or accepting) that the only time Beethoven could have been Beethoven and sounded like the Beethoven we know was the time he actually lived in. Later eras, with oceans of social and ideological shifts and a completely different collective psyche and ethos present, do not have those collective influences, and would affect anyone born later, and would very much come to bear on what they produce in the way of any kind of art.

This is why this sort of supposition as premise is forever futile.*


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## Andolink (Oct 29, 2012)

But it is interesting to think about how the music world would react if today the works of Beethoven were just now being brought to light for the first time. In other words, Beethoven never having existed, a hitherto unknown composer of today presents to the public (say via YouTube for example) his catalog of musical works which are in fact the catalog Beethoven left us at his death in 1827.


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2014)

PetrB said:


> *Later eras, with oceans of social and ideological shifts and a completely different collective psyche and ethos present, do not have those collective influences, and would affect anyone born later, and would very much come to bear on what they produce in the way of any kind of art. *


What...you mean...like all those things that caused modernism? :devil:


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

MacLeod said:


> What...you mean...like all those things that caused modernism? :devil:


Every age, when it is ongoing, is 'modern' The Egyptians in 2000 B.C lived in the most modern of times. The Greeks in 400 B.C. lived in the most modern world anyone could think of _at that time._

Bach lived in 'modern times.' Etc._Mozart lived in 'modern times.'Etc._Beethoven lived in 'modern times.' Etc._Etc._Etc._

It was _Beethoven's_ modern times what made Luigi 'a modernist.' LOL

_________That_is_the_point.


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2014)

Just don't get me started on the misuse of English that means we can't use 'modern' and 'contemporary' properly.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Andolink said:


> But it is interesting to think about how the music world would react if today the works of Beethoven were just now being brought to light for the first time. In other words, Beethoven never having existed, a hitherto unknown composer of today presents to the public (say via YouTube for example) his catalog of musical works which are in fact the catalog Beethoven left us at his death in 1827.


But bear in mind that in the world today, Beethoven's music is part of the definition of "classical music". Eliminate the works of Beethoven from musical history, and musical history changes hugely - think how it would affect the music of Berlioz or Liszt, say. I don't know how music would have turned out, but it's possible that in a no-Beethoven world, the discovery of Beethoven's full catalog in 2014 would elicit little more than "huh, look at all this crazy stuff".


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2014)

Andolink said:


> ...a hitherto unknown composer of today presents to the public (say via YouTube for example) his catalog of musical works which are in fact the catalog Beethoven left us at his death in 1827.


Well, since this is, in fact, a flat impossibility, I guess we're back with the White Queen in _Through the Looking Glass._

The catalog of works left in 1827 could only have been written before 1827. As has been pointed out already. (I feel redundant.)


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

Hasn't this already been played out?


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Sorry, PetrB, it was just an idea to talk about. Perhaps I meant to say, and I have only just thought of this, his pieces would have to have got written at some point, or some composer would have happened upon the fifth and the third symphonies. There is only a finite amount of tonal music (I'm not bashing atonal) that the human brain will accept as 'music' and a lot of Beethoven's ideas are ingenious in their simplicity that someone would have discovered them eventually (I realise I cannot prove that). Maybe someone working alone as an amateur in the 1980s 1990s 2000s,etc. Maybe an undiscovered genius working as a bricklayer now using Sibelius 7 or Finale.


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## Serge (Mar 25, 2010)

As any artist Beethoven was influenced by his immediate predecessors. If he happened to live in other times then his influences would be different and so would his music too. I understand that this doesn't answer the OP question, but then again I don't really know what that question really is.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

beetzart said:


> *If Beethoven was alive today...* Say he never existed 1770-1827 ... but was born in 1970 instead ... would he be as famous?


No, but _I _would be, 'cause I'd have written those nine symphonies, 32 sonatas, and the quartets, etc., since I was born well before 1970 and have known how those things sound since at least the early '60s. So ... do the math. (And I'll accept the royalties.)

We _are_ in the Twilight Zone, right?


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## Stargazer (Nov 9, 2011)

I think we all know what would happen.

He'd turn up the FUNK!


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

brianvds said:


> Also, keep in mind that with today's technology, he might well not be deaf, and who knows what influence that had on his music and career. Furthermore, he would have had access to better shrinks than were available then, which might also have played a big role.


Which is exactly why his music wouldn't be nearly as good, hahahaha. Beethoven just isn't Beethoven without lead poisoning.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Lukecash12 said:


> Which is exactly why his music wouldn't be nearly as good, hahahaha. Beethoven just isn't Beethoven without lead poisoning.


"Ridding the future of the next Picassos by prescribing Ritalin to the children of today."


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

PetrB said:


> "Ridding the future of the next Picassos by prescribing Ritalin to the children of today."


In our future perfect world, everybody will be normal. I can hardly wait.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

KenOC said:


> In our future perfect world, everybody will be normal. I can hardly wait.


Not if us schizophrenic or autistic wackos have any say in it. There has to be someone to do the math and write the music. Who wants to live in a world with no chance of Van Gogh or Henselt?


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

I think it is a myth that many kids are dosed up on Ritalin, etc. My sons aren't and none at their school (of about 200) are on any ADHD medication. This is the UK and here I think we are more cautious about giving youngster powerful drugs/stimulants. But doctors are not trying to rid tomorrow's Picasso, they are trying to alleviate symptoms for the child and give their carers respite. I'm sure it is a last resort. Don't worry they won't put Ritalin the water anytime soon.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

beetzart said:


> I think it is a myth that many kids are dosed up on Ritalin, etc. My sons aren't and none at their school (of about 200) are on any ADHD medication. This is the UK and here I think we are more cautious about giving youngster powerful drugs/stimulants. But doctors are not trying to rid tomorrow's Picasso, they are trying to alleviate symptoms for the child and give their carers respite. I'm sure it is a last resort. Don't worry they won't put Ritalin the water anytime soon.


In America, there was a generation not long ago when ADD and ADHD were improperly diagnosed. It started to become an excuse for average behavior and parents would give ritalin to their children basically in order to get the personality that they wanted. So it isn't a myth at all, you're just on the "other side of the pond".

This whole mess was pretty much the start of it being common for people in America to self diagnose. It is so nauseating for me to hear these crappy self excuses from people around me when I have a debilitating neurological disorder, was actually told I could collect disability, and decided to keep working anyways. If they had experienced any of the genuine symptoms of the disorders they try to claim, maybe they wouldn't want to claim them as it is truly a negative experience. Having to take pills so you don't have a panic attack or a seizure isn't fun at all.


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

I would think that Beethoven would still be drawn to classical music and probably become a great composer, yet in a completely different style obviously. There's no escaping the pull of music if you've got it ingrained in you. 

By the way, I'm back after a short break. I put the site on a week-long suspension from myself after receiving a warning recently.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Dustin said:


> I would think that Beethoven would still be drawn to classical music and probably become a great composer, yet in a completely different style obviously. There's no escaping the pull of music if you've got it ingrained in you.
> 
> By the way, I'm back after a short break. I put the site on a week-long suspension from myself after receiving a warning recently.


What if Beethoven grew up in the modern age and didn't decide to write music at all? It's not as if we've proven any genetic links to music, after all. How does music ingrain itself?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Lukecash12 said:


> What if Beethoven grew up in the modern age and didn't decide to write music at all? It's not as if we've proven any genetic links to music, after all. How does music ingrain itself?


 So true. Beethoven was born into a musical family -- his grandfather and father were both professional musicians. His father taught him from an early age, and he gained a position in the Bonn court orchestra while still young. He turned into the right guy, in the right place, at the right time. Genetics helped, but there's a lot more to the story. Today? Maybe he'd be an actuary.


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

Lukecash12 said:


> What if Beethoven grew up in the modern age and didn't decide to write music at all? It's not as if we've proven any genetic links to music, after all. How does music ingrain itself?


Well I don't need scientific proof to believe that genetics is a big part in musical talent. I've seen countless examples of children of great musicians becoming great musicians themselves, both personally and throughout history. And yes I understand that a lot of musical parents nurture their child's musical ability but that's not always the case. My dad and I are both OBSESSED with music way beyond what is normal, yet while still appreciating and giving him credit where it's due, his passion for music is not the reason I was drawn to music. We enjoy completely different styles of music.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Dustin said:


> Well I don't need scientific proof to believe that genetics is a big part in musical talent. I've seen countless examples of children of great musicians becoming great musicians themselves, both personally and throughout history. And yes I understand that a lot of musical parents nurture their child's musical ability but that's not always the case. My dad and I are both OBSESSED with music way beyond what is normal, yet while still appreciating and giving him credit where it's due, his passion for music is not the reason I was drawn to music. We enjoy completely different styles of music.


And you don't think that tons of anecdotal cases proving the opposite can be found?


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

Lukecash12 said:


> And you don't think that tons of anecdotal cases proving the opposite can be found?


Yes, I'm sure there are cases of the opposite. I'm saying the majority... I kind of feel silly even arguing this point. Isn't it sort of common knowledge?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Lukecash12 said:


> And you don't think that tons of anecdotal cases proving the opposite can be found?


Well, offspring of composers who don't pursue music aren't very newsworthy. But probably numerous!


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Dustin said:


> Yes, I'm sure there are cases of the opposite. I'm saying the majority... I kind of feel silly even arguing this point. Isn't it sort of common knowledge?


Like KenOC said, of course we more often hear about things that are notable. This is why anecdotal evidence isn't useful. What we have pretty much conclusively learned from genetics is that there isn't any clear cut way to reduce personalities down to some responsible set of genes. Anecdotal evidence only gets circumstantially recorded. When evidence is catalogued by a third party, then it becomes useful.


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2014)

beetzart said:


> I think it is a myth that many kids are dosed up on Ritalin, etc. My sons aren't and none at their school (of about 200) are on any ADHD medication. This is the UK and here I think we are more cautious about giving youngster powerful drugs/stimulants.


I don't know about now, but when I was head of a primary school in the UK in the late 1990s, 10% of the children were on Ritalin.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Dustin said:


> Yes, I'm sure there are cases of the opposite. I'm saying the majority... I kind of feel silly even arguing this point. Isn't it sort of common knowledge?


If you want some demonstration of possible "musical talent is genetic," the worst example is someone who grew up in a home environment where music was strongly emphasized.

Better to find a child adopted directly after their birth who was placed in a non-musical / anti-musical environment in their infancy and who later became a fine musician, and then to find among their immediate genetic predecessors several highly musical forebears.

Sphere of influence as strong as that which Bach, Mozart or Beethoven were born into, and at a time where a son most typically 'apprenticed to do the job his father did.' -- or histories like that of Christoph von Dohnanyi becoming a conductor, his father an internationally known composer, etc. only cloud the issue.


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

PetrB said:


> "Ridding the future of the next Picassos by prescribing Ritalin to the children of today."


I highly disagree with this statement. I have add myself and I only found out when I was around 18 and ritalin simply helps me focus, without it I'm utteely unorganised and not capable of maintaining any discipline. I don't think you can be an artist without discipline


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Piwikiwi said:


> I highly disagree with this statement. I have add myself and I only found out when I was around 18 and ritalin simply helps me focus, without it I'm utteely unorganised and not capable of maintaining any discipline. I don't think you can be an artist without discipline


Completely agree. Not every kid will take ritalin like someone said higher up 10% but what about the 90% who don't need it. The 10% are being treated, PetrB, for an illness the best way medicine knows how. Hundred years ago they would have gone in the county asylum, over 200 years ago in the UK they hung unruly kids. We've moved on let's just stick with the drugs.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

If Beethoven was alive today, he would sample (after being fitted for a hearing aid) various performances of his symphonies and keyboard sonatas.

Annie Fischer, Ronald Brautigam and Gunter Wand would bring a broad smile to his face.

Riccardo Chailly and Garrick Ohlsson would make him frown.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Extrapolate into the future: will people think Gary Barlow and Robbie Williams as musical geniuses? I hope not.


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2014)

When the Beatles start singing (?) people telling themselves stories that if Mozart was living today he would write/compose in the same manner as the Beatles yeah yeah yeah.I say nothing new but Beethoven was a great mind,difficult for himself and others and not interesting in pleasing people.He had a message and music was his language to communicate.A mind as Beethoven in this epoch would be also deeple disturbed by the vanishing of human dignity and authentiv personalities.He would be revolting with a different idiom of course against the tyranny and enslavement of the human race.


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2014)

hpowders said:


> If Beethoven was alive today, he would sample (after being fitted for a hearing aid) various performances of his symphonies and keyboard sonatas.
> 
> Annie Fischer, Ronald Brautigam and Gunter Wand would bring a broad smile to his face.
> 
> Riccardo Chailly and Garrick Ohlsson would make him frown.


I cannot hear Beethoven in the latest recordings of Chailly,perfectly played but no soul,spirit or message.I stay totally unmoved.


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## Serge (Mar 25, 2010)

If The Beatles were alive today...


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

traverso said:


> I cannot hear Beethoven in the latest recordings of Chailly,perfectly played but no soul,spirit or message.I stay totally unmoved.


Yes! Exactly! Perfectly played by a bunch of unfeeling robots! Have you ever heard the first movement of the Pastoral played with all the joy removed as Chailly performs it? It's supposed to be a pleasant walk, not a race!!
I'll stay with Gunther Wand.


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

The question is so mystical as to almost mock any answers itself. There are other questions similar to the one you asked which might be more appropriate and answerable, like:

Is Beethoven's music relevant in our times?
Can somebody write music like Beethoven's but better than him?


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2014)

shangoyal said:


> Is Beethoven's music relevant in our times?


Some of the eople who are alive right now listen to Beethoven.



shangoyal said:


> Can somebody write music like Beethoven's but better than him?


Anyone with the proper training can write music that uses Beethoven's stylistic mannerisms. (See post #46 in the Tonal music in our days thread - http://www.talkclassical.com/33380-tonal-music-our-days-4.html#post697376.) It will only be pastiche. And it will definitely not be the way Beethoven composed, himself.

Even though I answered them, I found your questions unanswerable. That's a paradox.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

If Beethoven was alive today he would be producing atonal masterpieces even Mahlerian couldn't dream of.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

If Beethoven was plucked, while writing his 5th symphony (say just done the exposition of mov 1), from Vienna, by forces we cannot begin to comprehend least understand and bought forward in time to 2014, where hence he was placed in a small Bedsit in Dover, Kent, UK, with an old upright piano and a recording of his sixth symphony (CD) by a CD player. What happens next? 

He carries on composing, not bothering with the 6th.

He spends minutes/hours/days working out how to use the CD player as is curious by his name on the CD case.

He runs around the streets shouting and hollering that he is Beethoven and what the f*** are these horseless wagons doing, before getting sectioned.

Something else.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2014)

I could see some fun in considering what Beethoven's contribution has been to the development of music, by imagining that he had not been around to do what he did in the late 18thC, but these speculations are getting more absurd and increasingly impossible to take seriously...

(...I know, I know, was I really taking seriously the idea of lifting the man from 1770 to 1970??)


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

MacLeod said:


> (...I know, I know, was I really taking seriously the idea of lifting the man from 1770 to 1970??)





beetzart said:


> If Beethoven was plucked, while writing his 5th symphony (say just done the exposition of mov 1), from Vienna, by forces we cannot begin to comprehend least understand and bought forward in time to 2014, where hence he was placed in a small Bedsit in Dover, Kent, UK, with an old upright piano and a recording of his sixth symphony (CD) by a CD player. What happens next?
> 
> He carries on composing, not bothering with the 6th.
> 
> ...


If immediately transported, and found on the street, clearly disoriented, he would be picked up by the police (after many calls made out of fear or concern for his welfare) and then be placed in a Psych ward for evaluation. Once it was determined he was actually speaking 200 year-old German, he would probably be categorized as having the same sort of delusional condition that those patients who thought they were Napoleon, or Teddy Roosevelt, etc. were thought to have.

Eventually, it would be found he played the piano very well, but only played Beethoven (natch, he thinks he's Beethoven) or other music similar to the period, including a canny ability to improvise in period style. This would cinch the additional assessment that he was also Autistic, aka, "Idiot Savant."

Music scholars would be called in to assess his playing and his music, and would concur that it was brilliantly like Beethoven, and that the patient was delusional, and an autistic idiot savant, the patient being a highly clever mimic, the music, pastiche.

Eventually, if it was determined that he was of no harm to himself or others, he might be released to a state-subsidized half-way house, where he had a set of hours free to roam about out of doors, but supervisors to be certain he took his meds regularly and that he was in his room as per schedule.

If this was in the U.S. he might have been released, without any of the other social supports, and ended up homeless.

If he was set down "in a small Bedsit in Dover, Kent, UK," He would catch a cold from the perpetual English damp, the cold would rapidly progress to pneumonia, and he would be dead within two weeks.


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

PetrB said:


> If immediately transported, and found on the street, clearly disoriented, he would be picked up by the police (after many calls made out of fear or concern for his welfare) and then be placed in a Psych ward for evaluation. Once it was determined he was actually speaking 200 year-old German, he would probably be categorized as having the same sort of delusional condition that those patients who thought they were Napoleon, or Teddy Roosevelt, etc. were thought to have.
> 
> Eventually, it would be found he played the piano very well, but only played Beethoven (natch, he thinks he's Beethoven) or other music similar to the period, including a canny ability to improvise in period style. This would cinch the additional assessment that he was also Autistic, aka, "Idiot Savant."
> 
> ...


The 200 year old German wouldn't be a problem actually, not much has changed.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

MacLeod said:


> I could see some fun in considering what Beethoven's contribution has been to the development of music, by imagining that he had not been around to do what he did in the late 18thC, but these speculations are getting more absurd and increasingly impossible to take seriously...
> 
> (...I know, I know, was I really taking seriously the idea of lifting the man from 1770 to 1970??)


Don't you love the absurd then? I do. Thought experiments all the way for me. Now just imagine if Beethoven had met Clementi while looking at the Horseless wagons whizz past and calmed down somewhat. Clementi being the innovator and opportunist (he won't mind me calling him that) would show Beethoven how to use the CD player and explain that he wrote this symphony two hundred years ago after being bought to the future.

Sorry this is doing my head in now. What's Clementi doing here?

Maybe this is something to do with quantum mechanics and we need Michio Kaku or Max Tegmark to explain some fluctuations in the fabric of space/time. But why Beethoven? (not just because this is a CM forum and I like Beethoven)


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

PetrB said:


> If immediately transported, and found on the street, clearly disoriented, he would be picked up by the police (after many calls made out of fear or concern for his welfare) and then be placed in a Psych ward for evaluation. Once it was determined he was actually speaking 200 year-old German, he would probably be categorized as having the same sort of delusional condition that those patients who thought they were Napoleon, or Teddy Roosevelt, etc. were thought to have.
> 
> Eventually, it would be found he played the piano very well, but only played Beethoven (natch, he thinks he's Beethoven) or other music similar to the period, including a canny ability to improvise in period style. This would cinch the additional assessment that he was also Autistic, aka, "Idiot Savant."
> 
> ...


What if, in his overcoat pocket was a set of very complicated equations that neither he nor his captors understood? Sort of explaining about wormholes and such.

Anyway PetrB, the weather in Dover is very nice for about 8 months of the year, can get cold in the winter and people do die of pneumonia but it is not too damp. Now imagine if I had said northern Scotland, he would have been dead within the hour. I'm autistic so I don't know if you are joking.

Interesting because us Brits would have treated him the same and he would have been national news, we may even send someone to the library or IMSLP to make sure he had written all the works he should have done.

It would be a shame to drug him, but it would happen, and cure his deafness too which I think he would appreciate.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

beetzart said:


> What if, in his overcoat pocket was a set of very complicated equations that neither he nor his captors understood? Sort of explaining about wormholes and such.
> 
> Anyway PetrB, the weather in Dover is very nice for about 8 months of the year, can get cold in the winter and people do die of pneumonia but it is not too damp. Now imagine if I had said northern Scotland, he would have been dead within the hour. I'm autistic so I don't know if you are joking.
> 
> ...


The bit about autism was a joke, bro. Hmmmm... I wouldn't be surprised if there were a decent number of us here. And if Beethoven is an idiot savant, then I take that as a compliment. I sure hope they don't give people like me sedatives or other crazy drugs over there, that would suck. All I need is my cannabis card for the seizures, that other stuff makes you feel lethargic and dumb like a zombie.

Now let's say Beethoven's got game, then what would he do? I'm sure he would be the spiffiest German pimp on the block. All the other pimps would be like "where did he get that blouse, what a baddass". And then eventually we would see Beethoven on the front page snortin' coke and eatin' waffles with Wiz Khalifa and Dave Chapelle.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2014)

beetzart said:


> Don't you love the absurd then?


Yes, I do. There's Beckett and Pinter and Ionesco and Simpson for starters...

But then there's threads at TC which take 'absurd' to undreamed of heights!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

If Beethoven was alive today, he would scorn those who consider Brahms First Symphony to be "Beethoven's Tenth".


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2014)

I like to add some absurdity to this item.I have here in front of me an album with music from dear Ludwig. Beethoven is still with us and composing,is it a mystery or genuine? Rosemary Brown is an English woman who says that Beethoven looks like 35 years of age and looks marvelous.Who is Rosemary Brown,well she has contact with the afterlife and Beethoven is not the only one .Liszt,Bach , Brahms and others come to her in order to enrich the world with new music.:tiphat:


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2014)

Beethoven is not an younger Brahms.Brahms is much more cantabile.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

If Beethoven was alive today I think he would be amazed at how many CD sets there are of his 9 symphonies.


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

hpowders said:


> If Beethoven was alive today I think he would be amazed at how many CD sets there are of his 9 symphonies.


Especially at *Amazon*!


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

...he would use the subjunctive.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

hpowders said:


> If Beethoven was alive today, he would sample (after being fitted for a hearing aid) various performances of his symphonies and keyboard sonatas.
> 
> Annie Fischer, Ronald Brautigam and Gunter Wand would bring a broad smile to his face.
> 
> Riccardo Chailly and Garrick Ohlsson would make him frown.


Back in the mid 80s, I saw Peter Ustinov star in the Broadway production of his play _Beethoven's Tenth_. The premise was the very scenario we're talking about here: Beethoven appears in the modern world and reacts to all that has changed. Not a great play, but I do remember the moment near the end when, after spending days listening to multiple recordings of his own works, he thanks his host for letting him hear interpretations of such . . . various quality.


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## Igneous01 (Jan 27, 2011)

He would probably still be furious as to why his Grosse Fugue never took off as well as his 9th Symphony.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Yet why only one Beethoven out of the million and billions of people born? I'm not saying there should be more...actually I am starting to feel like I am in a cargo cult. Soon I'll have old pianos all round my house with music scruffily thrown about the place, I'll shout and be rude at people and not shower, have a go at a model of Ferdinand Reis and chuck my dinner at the wall all in the hope he may just return.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

If Beethoven was alive today, he would follow Jerry Seinfeld's acumen and attempt to get paid a royalty for all performances and recordings of his music.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

beetzart said:


> * If Beethoven was Alive Today...*


...he'd be decomposing!


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

traverso said:


> I like to add some absurdity to this item.I have here in front of me an album with music from dear Ludwig. Beethoven is still with us and composing,is it a mystery or genuine? Rosemary Brown is an English woman who says that Beethoven looks like 35 years of age and looks marvelous.Who is Rosemary Brown,well she has contact with the afterlife and Beethoven is not the only one .Liszt,Bach , Brahms and others come to her in order to enrich the world with new music.:tiphat:


Wasn't it just amazing that each and every composer Rosemary Brown channeled was kind enough to let her in on a piece _which just perfectly suited and sat within the confines of her limited piano technique_?

Sooo accommodating of those on the other side, I thought. :tiphat:


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

amfortas said:


> ...he would use the subjunctive.


Oh, my oh my. :lol::lol:
:tiphat:


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

If Beethoven was alive today, he would be amazed at the technical proficiency of orchestras, pianists, violinists and string quartets in their ability to play his music at the highest technical level, probably unheard of (pardon the pun) in his own time.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

hpowders said:


> If Beethoven was alive today, he would be amazed at the technical proficiency of orchestras, pianists, violinists and string quartets in their ability to play his music at the highest technical level, probably unheard of (pardon the pun) in his own time.


If Beethoven was alive today, he and Gary Busey would be best of friends.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Lope de Aguirre said:


> If Beethoven was alive today, he and Gary Busey would be best of friends.


Beethoven would die to have dental work like that. Wooden teeth simply don't hold up as well as porcelain veneers.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

If Beethoven were alive today, he'd be hanging out around here and piling up the infraction points. No time to write anything.


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

KenOC said:


> If Beethoven were alive today, he'd be hanging out around here and piling up the infraction points. No time to write anything.


Haha, I wonder if Vivaldi, Bach, Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Wagner, Verdi, Mahler, etc. were TalkClassical members, who would get the most infractions? Who would receive a ban first? I'm thinking Beethoven, he was perhaps the most cantankerous of all!


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

KenOC said:


> If Beethoven were alive today, he'd be hanging out around here and piling up the infraction points. No time to write anything.


He'd have been banned before he even reached the limit of required comment only posts prior being allowed to post an OP.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

If Luigi were alive today, holding his former rank while alive in the past, he would be one of the most beloved _and_ controversial of contemporary classical composers currently composing, and neither his former harmonic language or former use of form would be at all present, because he would be doing just what he did with and to music in the earlier era in the present era.

In other words, it would not sound remotely like Beethoven's music of yore. Take the most modern, dissonant and confrontational composer of his era in the past, keep that quality about him while dropping him in to the present, and what else would or should anyone expect?


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

PetrB said:


> If Luigi were alive today, holding his former rank while alive in the past, he would be one of the most beloved _and_ controversial of contemporary classical composers currently composing, and neither his former harmonic language or former use of form would be at all present, because he would be doing just what he did with and to music in the earlier era in the present era.
> 
> In other words, it would not sound remotely like Beethoven's music of yore. Take the most modern, dissonant and confrontational composer of his era in the past, keep that quality about him while dropping him in to the present, and what else would or should anyone expect?


That is, unless it is like we discussed earlier, and Beethoven doesn't compose at all.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Lukecash12 said:


> That is, unless it is like we discussed earlier, and Beethoven doesn't compose at all.


Then why discuss the guy who works in the office of your insurance carrier when you want to talk about past or present classical composers? LOL.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

PetrB said:


> Then why discuss the guy who works in the office of your insurance carrier when you want to talk about past or present classical composers? LOL.


Hmmm... maybe Bob would have made great music if he lived in 18th century Austria or Vienna.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

DiesIraeVIX said:


> Haha, I wonder if Vivaldi, Bach, Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Wagner, Verdi, Mahler, etc. were TalkClassical members, who would get the most infractions? Who would receive a ban first? I'm thinking Beethoven, he was perhaps the most cantankerous of all!


Wagner might come off as a bit worse than cantankerous.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

amfortas said:


> Wagner might come off as a bit worse than cantankerous.


I'm pretty sure that he would be considered the least "PC", that is unless we consider Bach proselytizing everyone and talking about Luther flogging himself.


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