# Was Tchaikovsky a kitsch composer?



## PavelC (Oct 6, 2012)

As Thomas Kulka writes, "the term kitsch was originally applied exclusively to paintings", but it soon spread to other disciplines, such as music. The term has been applied to painters, such as Ilya Repin, and composers, such as Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky, whom Hermann Broch refers to as "genialischer kitsch", or "kitsch of genius".

Tchaikovsky - kitsch?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

No. Next question?


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Early Repin at least wasn´t kitsch - if related to his own time he was on the contrary innovative and at times provocative. I haven´t seen serious art historians making claims about kitsch.

Times were different back then; theatricality was much more widely accepted, and experiencing ambitious art less common than today.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2013)

Art Rock said:


> No. Next question?


Ditto!! Tchaikovsky was a great theatrical composer (opera and ballet - 'Eugene Onegin' tears your heart out!!) and also excellent with chamber music, songs, piano concertos (I love the 2nd with that beautiful cello obligato), string serenades (Mozartiana springs to mind), and his solo piano pieces are charming but my no means really demanding.

I think his Arabian Dance from "Nutcracker" is an inspired piece. The chalameau register on the clarinet is used and the piece is brooding, haunting and 'fragrant'. He uses the strings as a kind of drone/ostinato throughout.






Simon Rattle agrees with me that "The Nutcracker" in toto is his masterwork!! Anybody who "bags" Tchaikovsky only reveals their own listening deficits!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Thaikovsky was an amateur artist also...


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Thaikovsky was an amateur artist also...


Yeah, Thaikovsky was; Tchaikovsky's cousin who'd simplified his name.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

No and I don't think the word can be applied to music,but in any case it refers to bad taste so Tchaikovsky Would hardly qualify.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

PavelC said:


> As Thomas Kulka writes, "the term kitsch was originally applied exclusively to paintings", but it soon spread to other disciplines, such as music. The term has been applied to painters, such as Ilya Repin, and composers, such as Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky, whom Hermann Broch refers to as "genialischer kitsch", or "kitsch of genius".
> 
> Tchaikovsky - kitsch?


Well the thing is that Tchaikovsky was his own worst critic. Its not uncommon among composers and artists in general, but he was VERY self critical. He mused that his 5th symphony was banal and repetitive, that his Nutcracker was the same basically, and would have agreed that his 1812 was glorified propaganda for the Tsarist regime that he wasn't a fan of (but of course, he was wise to keep that sort of opinion under wraps, the Tsar commissioned 1812 and ended up paying for his funeral, which was one of the most lavish state funerals of the era).

But by the same token, Tchaikovsky stood by a number of his works, eg. he broached no crticism from Rubinstein of his first piano concerto, he was happy with his 4th symphony and believed his 6th symphony was the best thing he ever wrote.

I would validate that at times he is prone to going over the top, but so what? Its that emotional quality so many people love & like Shostakovich, who can be seen as his modern successor in the symphony department, he often injects his own life into his music (or hints at whats going on in his life strongly).

All composers, even the greats, have their negatives as well as positives. But I wouldn't use kitsch for Tchaikovsky - I'd use that for eg. Lehar or light musics like that, maybe even Grofe - but some words that come to mind that are not so positive are garish, vulgar, over the top. But I think these qualities, which other Russians particularly have in common, are strongly outweighed by things like Tchaikovsky's innovation, his imagination/creativity, his skill in many genres, his personal and unique style, and I could go on. He's not the most popular Russian composer of the Romantic era for nothing, I think.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2013)

Well, Sid, you've nailed it. And many composers were 'self-critical'. Look at all the sketches and workings which Brahms destroyed. And Beethoven referred to his "Wellington's Victory" as "a rag" - though musicologists like Solomon have found things of value even in that trivial piece (commissioned by the English btw). Beethoven was fulfilling specific commissions with some of these lesser works. He really knew his audiences!!! (This doesn't apply to the later works, BTW.)


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

The piece was dedicated to the Prince Regent, later King George IV. I was not aware that the English had commissioned it...

But a critical piece on Wellington's Victory did result in one of Beethoven's finest lines.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Kitsch is that Lamb, literally a lamb, of God you find at a bazaar sale which is made up of pipe cleaners dyed various colors, the tableau the lamb lying down beneath a resplendent pipe-cleaner palm tree. Kitsch is a small replica statuette of the Venus de Milo with a small clock inset in her stomach...

So, no, Tchaikovsky is not kitsch. Some then, as now, find it over-the top mama-drama (unnecessarily) excessive and melodramatic, too tune based, too overtly sentimental, flashy, cheap, etc -- this was very much what Rubenstein thought about the first piano concerto when Tchaikovsky ran it by him.

To say he was not a talented genius would be beyond the ridiculous, and some of the orchestration is amazing, which is not at all bad for a composer whose orchestral writing skills were pretty much self taught.

A colleague of mine, while in high school, told his teacher he liked Tchaikovsky. The teacher said, "How can you like that!?! It is so runny."

I do sort of agree with that, it is runny, like Brie cheese  

Clearly a great -- not kitsch -- composer (well, the 1812 overture is a sort of paragon of kitsch, but putting that aside....) and one who more than had a knack for writing for the ballet and opera.

Nonetheless, I can't stand any of it


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2013)

KenOC said:


> The piece was dedicated to the Prince Regent, later King George IV. I was not aware that the English had commissioned it...
> 
> But a critical piece on Wellington's Victory did result in one of Beethoven's finest lines.


You may be right. I seem to remember reading that Beethoven loved the English and was overjoyed by the defeat of the French at the Battle of Waterloo. But you may be right about the Prince Regent's commission.


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2013)

PetrB said:


> Kitsch is that Lamb, literally a lamb, of God you find at a bazaar sale which is made up of pipe cleaners dyed various colors, the tableau the lamb lying down beneath a resplendent pipe-cleaner palm tree. Litsch is a small replica statue of the Venus de Milo with a small clock inset in her stomach...
> 
> So, no, Tchaikovsky is not kitsch. Some then, as now, find it over-the top mama-drama (unnecessarily) excessive and melodramatic, too tune based, too overtly sentimental, flashy, cheap, etc -- this was very much what Rubenstein thought about the first piano concerto when Tchaikovsky ran it by him.
> 
> ...


The word "kitsch" seems to have been generally adopted to describe all of the arts. Thanks for highlighting its 'derivation'!!

I love Tchaikovsky but I know he's not for everybody. One of my teaching colleagues used to say, "he wears his heart on his sleeve". So be it. He had a heart, that's the main thing. As I said, he's "very theatrical". That's not to say I like all the symphonies - these don't really work for me, except the 6th which I heard played by the Concertgebouw in Vienna in 2011. Impressive.

And on some of my less than fabulous days, psychologically/emotionally, I can very much relate to that last movement in the 6th!!


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> The word "kitsch" seems to have been generally adopted to describe all of the arts. Thanks for highlighting its 'derivation'!!
> 
> I love Tchaikovsky but I know he's not for everybody. One of my teaching colleagues used to say, "he wears his heart on his sleeve". So be it. He had a heart, that's the main thing. As I said, he's "very theatrical". That's not to say I like all the symphonies - these don't really work for me, except the 6th which I heard played by the Concertgebouw in Vienna in 2011. Impressive.
> 
> And on some of my less than fabulous days, psychologically/emotionally, I can very much relate to that last movement in the 6th!!


Kitsch was first used in association with artwork, more specifically, 'manufactured works using cultural icons in a far less lofty, if not downright tawdry, way. The Venus de Milo statuette with the clock in the stomach a perfect example (I can not believe nothing comes up in google images when you try any number of combinations of Venus de Milo, Statuette, clock in stomach, etc. or I would have happily pasted an image of said Kitsch / Camp object here


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

PetrB said:


> The Venus de Milo statuette with the clock in the stomach a perfect example...


My grandmother had that clock back in the '50s! The clock worked fine and was removable for winding. And maybe there was a hidden compartment back there for your stash... Who says kitsch can't have utility?


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2013)

PetrB said:


> Kitsch was first used in association with artwork, more specifically, 'manufactured works using cultural icons in a far less lofty, if not downright tawdry, way. The Venus de Milo statuette with the clock in the stomach a perfect example (I can not believe nothing comes up in google images when you try any number of combinations of Venus de Milo, Statuette, clock in stomach, etc. or I would have happily pasted an image of said Kitsch / Camp object here


Oh, now you're making me want one of my own...!!!!!!!!!!


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

KenOC said:


> My grandmother had that clock back in the '50s! The clock worked fine and was removable for winding. And maybe there was a hidden compartment back there for your stash... Who says kitsch can't have utility?


Your Grandmother smoked weed, and / or took hallucinogens?


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## Minona (Mar 25, 2013)

Well... funny thing this. I never liked Rossini's music, it always sounded kitsch or... camp to my ears. I acknowledged his obvious ability to compose imaginatively (esp melodies) but I don't like it generally. I have the same problem with SOME of Tchaikovski's music, and it turns out he was a fan of Rossini. 

I'm a big fan of Beethoven, who avoided several meetings with Rossini. I do find my thoughts resonate with composers I like (in matters of music anyway).


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

I honestly think that there is an element of kitsch in Tchaikovsky. That does not stop him being a top notch composer, however. Usually, a composer's strength is also his weakness; with Tchaikovsky, his supreme emotionality and gift for melody sometimes also carry a side-current of kitschiness. But it's like this with most composers, certainly, with all the interesting ones. Sibelius is stern but can be accused of being lifeless, Beethoven epitomizes willpower but can be accused of being single-minded, Wagner is meaningful/long-winded, Schubert is graceful but may lack development, Brahms is intelligent/too academic, etc. Depends on your point of view, really. But to say that there's not even trace elements of kitsch in any of Tchaikovsky's works is taking it a bit too far, methinks.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Minona said:


> I'm a big fan of Beethoven, who avoided several meetings with Rossini.


Actually the two met in 1822. Per Cooper: "Johann told Beethoven that Rossini, who was in Vienna for a few months, greatly desired to meet him. The meeting duly took place, but as neither Beethoven nor Rossini was fluent in the other's language, there was little communication."


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## drpraetorus (Aug 9, 2012)

There is, in some parts of the musical world, a feeling that if the music is accessable or inteligible or, heaven forfend, popular, then it must be of lesser value. The musical snobbery of hipsters is nothing compared with that of the self appointed avant guarde. Just because he had an incredible talent for melodies and he was among the most Romantic of the Romantics, he is disparaged. Like most composers, some of his work is just pulled from his bag of tricks, but other works are remarkably well done and very moving. Sure, he wrote the 1812 Overture, but if it's kitsch, it kitsch of the most glorious vein. For many Tchaikovsk is an entry level drug to the world of Classical music.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Was Tchaikovsky a kitsch composer? Answer No


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2013)

Let's put this into perspective. Liberace was kitsch! Andre Rieu IS kitsch.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

drpraetorus said:


> There is, in some parts of the musical world, a feeling that if the music is accessable or inteligible or, heaven forfend, popular, then it must be of lesser value. The musical snobbery of hipsters is nothing compared with that of the self appointed avant guarde. Just because he had an incredible talent for melodies and he was among the most Romantic of the Romantics, he is disparaged. Like most composers, some of his work is just pulled from his bag of tricks, but other works are remarkably well done and very moving. Sure, he wrote the 1812 Overture, but if it's kitsch, it kitsch of the most glorious vein. For many Tchaikovsky is an entry level drug to the world of Classical music.


I agree; sneering at simplicity & at uncomplicated human emotions is seen as proving sophistication & intellectual capacity. But as Wilde observed, the cynic knows the price of everything & the value of nothing. 'Kitsch' is in the ear of the listener...


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2013)

Ingenue said:


> I agree; sneering at simplicity & at uncomplicated human emotions is seen as proving sophistication & intellectual capacity. But as Wilde observed, the cynic knows the price of everything & the value of nothing. 'Kitsch' is in the ear of the listener...


What about the fact that some things are vulgar and crass and a person doesn't have to be especially sophisticated to understand and express that. For me, almost all of Andrew Lloyd-Webber's musicals are kitsch beyond belief. I've sung some of his music in a choir and some of it is charming, but a lot of it is also melodramatic and cliched. Remember, a lot of these aesthetic judgments are made on the basis of what one is used to and what one expects from music. I'm an ardent enthusiast of the American Musical theatre and Tin Pan Alley and lyricists of supreme sophistication and urbanity like Larry Hart and Stephen Sondheim. Let's look at some of Larry's words... "your looks are laughable, un-photographable - yet you're my favourite work of art" (My Funny Valentine). And Cole Porter, "let me live 'neath your spell: do do that voodoo that you do so well" ("You Do Something to Me")

There's no going back for me...!!! You can call that 'knowing the value of nothing' if it makes you feel better.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

No, I don't like Andrew Lloyd-Webber either, CountenanceAnglaise, and for the reasons you state - 'melodramatic & cliched'. 'Kitsch' is less informative, though: a sort of clever-clever derogatory label, certainly not to be applied to Tchaikovsky.


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## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

Tchaikovsky's personal drama elevates his music, sentimental as it may be, to something high above kitsch. Sentimentality, enriched with neuroticism does not equate kitsch.


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2013)

Andreas said:


> Tchaikovsky's personal drama elevates his music, sentimental as it may be, to something high above kitsch. Sentimentality, enriched with neuroticism does not equate kitsch.


How about the fact that Tchaikovsky was one of the greatest orchestrators in the history of music??!! I think he was the first to use the celeste - and use it he did to perfection in "The Nutcracker". Delicacy, incredible melodies, high drama, poignance, superb use of the orchestra and a huge flair for theatricality - opera and ballet.

Then there's this magnficient Piano Trio in A Minor - so VERY RUSSIAN!! It captures the sadness of that nation which has suffered so much over the centuries:


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Thaikovsky was an amateur artist also...


Since I had trouble finding one image (via Google) of that iconic statuette of Venus de Milo with the clock inset in her stomach, the Keane will have to do


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> Oh, now you're making me want one of my own...!!!!!!!!!!


a giggle and a wry smile every time you check the time, yes? Me too. (Apart from the fact the 'original' generation were probably made of that early plastic made in imitation of ivory, and if of that vintage and rare, probably have a silly high asking price if and where available.)


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2013)

PetrB said:


> a giggle and a wry smile every time you check the time, yes? Me too. (Apart from the fact the 'original' generation were probably made of that early plastic made in imitation of ivory, and if of that vintage and rare, probably have a silly high asking price if and where available.)


You mean Bakerlite? The material from which the floors for the Astaire/Rogers musicals at RKO were made and, later, telephones. Now I'm showing my age - born long after RKO musicals, though!!

Sadly, I don't have any objects d'art which qualify as kitsch!! A friend (who died 2 days ago, as it happens) bought us a piece of kitsch for our wedding day (in 1974) and I threw it in the bin next day. So, I have made my "mea culpa" by collecting Meisen, Villeroy & Boch, Waterford crystal, Loebmeyr Crystal (Vienna) and such things EVER SINCE. Whilst living in Vienna I found, at an antique market in Mahlerstrasse, a 1978 cameo in Meissen of Schubert - struck to commemorate the 150th year since his death. (90 Euro - bargain!)


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> You mean Bakerlite? The material from which the floors for the Astaire/Rogers musicals at RKO were made and, later, telephones.


Bakelite was one of the earliest plastics. An interesting history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakelite


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Good olde Leo Baekeland hey but why not use excretion of lac beetles instead

A Bayko – a construction set would be a good have


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Unlimited cat videos...that's kitsch!
America's Funniest Home Videos...that's kitsch!
Ceramic figurines that say "I wuv 'oo this much!"...that's kitsch!


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> Unlimited cat videos...that's kitsch!
> America's Funniest Home Videos...that's kitsch!
> Ceramic figurines that say "I wuv 'oo this much!"...that's kitsch!


I started a separate thread so that people could identify kitsch!


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

I always thought the introduction of the first piano concerto (



) as the musical equivalent of this:


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2013)

aleazk said:


> I always thought the introduction of the first piano concerto (
> 
> 
> 
> ) as the musical equivalent of this:


Funny!! He speaks well of you, though.

Too much horsing around for my taste. Giddey up.


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> ...(snip... a 1978 cameo in Meissen of Schubert - struck to commemorate the 150th year since his death. (90 Euro - bargain!)


I have one of those Schubert Meissen Figurines standing on my piano! It is lovely! (There used to be a Beethoven Plaster Bust beside it, who unfortunately did not survive the cat's playing many years ago so it is now decomposing!  )

/ptr


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

Sid James said:


> the Tsarist regime


eh, its like a _God save the Queen, a fascist regime [SUP](c)[/SUP]_ stuff, right?


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

^ So where the Sex Pistols kitsch, answer probably yes!


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

ptr said:


> I have one of those Schubert Meissen Figurines standing on my piano! It is lovely! (There used to be a Beethoven Plaster Bust beside it, who unfortunately did not survive the cat's playing many years ago so it is now decomposing!  )
> 
> /ptr


please, not that joke again!.


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2013)

I see we're still kitsching on! I shall be watching this when it comes out (link to an article in The Guardian):
http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/filmblog/2013/apr/08/liberace-film-trailer-matt-damon


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

aleazk said:


> I always thought the introduction of the first piano concerto (
> 
> 
> 
> ) as the musical equivalent of this:


also the equivalent of Matt Damon's acting (in regards to TalkingHead's post). Poor Liberace...


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## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

drpraetorus said:


> There is, in some parts of the musical world, a feeling that if the music is accessable or inteligible or, heaven forfend, popular, then it must be of lesser value. The musical snobbery of hipsters is nothing compared with that of the self appointed avant guarde. Just because he had an incredible talent for melodies and he was among the most Romantic of the Romantics, he is disparaged. Like most composers, some of his work is just pulled from his bag of tricks, but other works are remarkably well done and very moving. Sure, he wrote the 1812 Overture, but if it's kitsch, it kitsch of the most glorious vein. For many Tchaikovsk is an entry level drug to the world of Classical music.


I just want to say that something I find off-putting is this idea that "talent for melodies" is a _negative_ thing. I guess I understand that certain uninspired popular music often utilizes "catchy tunes" for its only appeal, but I can't ever think that the use of melody in classical music is negative. If I listen to a piece of music, and I can't remember any melody from the piece after having listened to it, then that piece is weaker in my mind. And that's part of why I love composers like Tchaikovsky, Dvorak, Ravel, and Rimsky-Korsakov.


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## Borodin (Apr 8, 2013)

Melody is a complex but rewarding art. My favorite kind.

You kind of have to think of melody as a natural advantage to see how important it is. One note tends to stick out above the others at every given interval. This advantage is why creating "popular beats" is so easy, but the advantage really gets squandered.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Tristan said:


> I just want to say that something I find off-putting is this idea that "talent for melodies" is a _negative_ thing.


cheerfulness in music is also often looked down upon. Melody and fun = a-ok in my book. As the cliche goes, it's all in how you use them.


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## Borodin (Apr 8, 2013)

deggial said:


> cheerfulness in music is also often looked down upon. Melody and fun = a-ok in my book. As the cliche goes, it's all in how you use them.


A masterful piece utilizes as much musicality as it can. Melody, harmony, dynamics, rhythm, etc. Mathematically speaking, (melody x harmony x etc.) makes for more possible combinations thus a greater dynamic range for talent.

Personally, because I see melody in terms of a natural intervallic hierarchy, I just can't correlate it with simply "fun and games." Harmony is multiple melodies that haven't the proper dynamic for one to shine. It's indecisive, incomplete writing. I hear many unmelodic pieces throughout the romantic period, long dramatic strands of harmonies, and never hear them reach their full potential. This is often representative to me of background music, one half missing the other.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Borodin said:


> A masterful piece utilizes as much musicality as it can. Melody, harmony, dynamics, rhythm, etc. Mathematically speaking, (melody x harmony x etc.) makes for more possible combinations thus a greater dynamic range for talent.


agreed. I didn't mean that melody should always be joyful, just mentioned two things that get a bit of browbeating.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

*No*! Absolutely, definitely, most certainly not. Absolutely *NO*.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Burroughs said:


> *No*! Absolutely, definitely, most certainly not. Absolutely *NO*.


You have a very satisfying style, Burroughs. Terse, to the point ... and accurate.


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