# The end of the line



## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

After discovering Beethoven's late string quartets and JS Bach's cantatas I feel no other music comes close, for me personally. I am trying to listen to Mendelssohn and his music is something special but it is not in the same league as Beethoven. I suppose Schubert is the nearest I can get to Beethoven or even Czerny. Handel and Scarlatti are close to Bach but again not in his league. Schumann and Brahms wrote some very good music but still not as good as Beethoven. So it feels like the end of the line. Is there anything out there as good as Beethoven and Bach that I haven't already mentioned?


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

So Beethoven and Bach is your favourite composer is what your saying, that they are the end of the line on your list of composers. Mine would be J.S Bach too, as well as Wagner.. if I had to nail it down to just my top 2 composers who I feel can't be rivaled by the rest in my subjective opinion.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Have you tried rap?


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

Wagner?











(start around 35:00 and give it a chance for at least twenty more minutes) 




First movement at least? 




But nah, you need Wagner. Maybe you didn't mention his name on purpose but you've got nowhere left to go now; you're trapped. :devil:


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Yes, but you probably wouldn't like it as much.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

beetzart said:


> After discovering Beethoven's late string quartets and JS Bach's cantatas I feel no other music comes close, for me personally. I am trying to listen to Mendelssohn and his music is something special but it is not in the same league as Beethoven. I suppose Schubert is the nearest I can get to Beethoven or even Czerny. Handel and Scarlatti are close to Bach but again not in his league. Schumann and Brahms wrote some very good music but still not as good as Beethoven. So it feels like the end of the line. Is there anything out there as good as Beethoven and Bach that I haven't already mentioned?


Had the same problem with Mozart and Beethoven. What worked for me was to tear down the Classical musical conventions and traditions, when I got into Bartok and Stravinsky.


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## Schumanniac (Dec 11, 2016)

If you desire an ascending quality in your explorations, beethoven's late quartets probably is the end of the line. From personal experience i must advice a binging course until a certain level of curiousity for something other has occured  Be aware that this might take a while of manic obsession.

I fear you will be forever remain haunted however, now beautiful musical creations will appear as grotesque, maggot-ridden corpses fighting their way up from the dirt and mud and ****  May God have mercy of our wonderful plight.

From a fellow lost soul, spoiled to ruin by this demigods genius.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

beetzart said:


> After discovering Beethoven's late string quartets and JS Bach's cantatas I feel no other music comes close, for me personally. I am trying to listen to Mendelssohn and his music is something special but it is not in the same league as Beethoven. I suppose Schubert is the nearest I can get to Beethoven or even Czerny. Handel and Scarlatti are close to Bach but again not in his league. Schumann and Brahms wrote some very good music but still not as good as Beethoven. So it feels like the end of the line. Is there anything out there as good as Beethoven and Bach that I haven't already mentioned?


There a couple of fellas named Mozart and Haydn that might be worth investigating. In addition you don't seem to have explored French or Russian Composers. Lully, the Couperins, Rameau, Gluck, Berlioz, Franck, Debussy, Ravel, Faure, Tchaikovsky (he was Known to have written a good melody or two), Mussorgsky, Rimsky-Korsakov, Prokofiev, Stravinsky, Shostakovich are kind of like around here. A guy named Chopin had some popularity. Liszt ain't my cup of paprika but he may appeal to you. Sibelius is one of my favorites. Another couple of fellas named Bruckner and Mahler have a bit of a rep and street cred. There is something known as the Second Viennese School that is worth exploring (Schoenberg, Webern, Berg) Bela Bartok and Paul Hindemith are two 20th Century composers that through no fault oftheir own seem to be on the decline in popularity. Richard Strauss or his non relative the Waltz King. England had more than Handel-try Purcell, Elgar, Vaughn Williams, or Holst.
I could go on. If you really are serious and not pulling our collective legs when you say that you have hit "the end" then rejoice because if you have an open mind there is a lot in store for you


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

Clairvoyance Enough said:


> Wagner?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Damn you, I clicked on the link and once I start Wagner I cant stop Wagner, he makes me feel like I am living on another planet.. you could say I am a Wagnaut.. 

View attachment 92884


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

I'd also recommend Stravinsky. Will you love it as much as Bach and Beethoven? Probably not, but maybe you're really looking for something that is great but doesn't sound like a less great version of something else, as you might feel about Mendelssohn, Schumann, and Brahms compared to Beethoven, or Handel compared to Bach.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

beetzart said:


> Is there anything out there as good as Beethoven and Bach that I haven't already mentioned?


Since taste is unpredictable, this is a question for which there is no answer. So I'll give one anyway: try Mahler.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Thanks! At present I am listening to Chopin's 1st piano sonata. I know he hated it but I feel it has a latent Ludwig effect hanging over it. I enjoy music aside from Bach and Beethoven it is that I find them the most powerful. For me nothing can top them. When Beethoven laid down his quill for the last time I feel music beyond the point was unnecessary. Still, it was nice of Schumann and Brahms et al to give it a damn good go!


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

beetzart said:


> When Beethoven laid down his quill for the last time I feel music beyond the point was unnecessary.


Well, fortunately there were a lot of composers after him who did not agree with that statement and composed works better than anything Beethoven composed (imo, just like your statement is iyo).


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## arnerich (Aug 19, 2016)




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## Totenfeier (Mar 11, 2016)

Art Rock said:


> Since taste is unpredictable, this is a question for which there is no answer. So I'll give one anyway: try Mahler.


Art Rock is right; It's Mahler for you, my lad: Symphonies 1, 2, 4, 9 (in that order), and then the lieder, especially the _Ruckert Lieder_, and in the _Ruckert Lieder_, especially _Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen_. Garnish with a topping of _Das Lied von der Erde_, and get back to me.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Art Rock said:


> Well, fortunately there were a lot of composers after him who did not agree with that statement and composed works better than anything Beethoven composed (imo, just like your statement is iyo).


Yep, I agree with your sentiment on subjectivity. Who did you have in mind though?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Cut-off point: 1827
Compositions better than imo best Beethoven work (Symphony 6):

1828 Schubert: String quintet in Cmaj
1830 Berlioz: Symphonie fantastique
1844 Mendelssohn: Violin concerto in Emin
1866 Bruch: Violin concerto 1 in Gmin
1868 Brahms: Ein Deutsches Requiem
1874 Mussorgsky: Pictures at an exhibition
1878 Brahms: Violin concerto in Dmaj
1878 Tchaikovsky: Violin Concerto in Dmaj
1886 Mahler: Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen
1886 Saint-Saens: Symphony 3 in Cmin 'Organ'
1890 Faure: Requiem in Dmin
1891 Brahms: Clarinet quintet in Bmin
1893 Dvorak: Symphony 9 in Emin 'New world'
1893 Dvorak: String quartet 12 in Fmaj 'American'
1894 Mahler: Symphony 2
1896 Bruckner: Symphony 9 (unfinished)
1901 Mahler: Symphony 4
1904 Mahler: Rueckert Lieder
1904 Mahler: Kindertotenlieder
1904 Mahler: Symphony 6 in Amin
1909 Mahler: Das Lied von der Erde
1910 Mahler: Symphony 9
1913 Stravinsky: The rite of spring
1945 Moeran: Cello concerto
1947 Barber: Knoxville summer of 1915
1976 Gorecki: Symphony 3


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## LesCyclopes (Sep 16, 2016)

I love Bach's cantatas, too. For me, the only vocal works that come close are Rameau's.

Try his Laboravi Clamans:


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Art Rock said:


> Cut-off point: 1827
> Compositions better than imo best Beethoven work (Symphony 6):
> 
> 1828 Schubert: String quintet in Cmaj
> ...


Blimey! Many of those pieces are amazing (I have not heard all of them) and I think many are better then Beethoven's 6th. Yet I don't think his 6th is the best, not even top ten. I think Beethoven's finest work is his final string quartet. There is a small sequential passage in the slow movement about 2 3rds through that is beyond words. And to me that is better then all the pieces you have listed, or the ones I am familiar with which is about 90-95%.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

beetzart said:


> After discovering Beethoven's late string quartets and JS Bach's cantatas I feel no other music comes close, for me personally. I am trying to listen to Mendelssohn and his music is something special but it is not in the same league as Beethoven. I suppose Schubert is the nearest I can get to Beethoven or even Czerny. Handel and Scarlatti are close to Bach but again not in his league. Schumann and Brahms wrote some very good music but still not as good as Beethoven. So it feels like the end of the line. Is there anything out there as good as Beethoven and Bach that I haven't already mentioned?


When you say it feels like the end of the line, I'm not sure exactly what you mean. You find Bach and Beethoven to be the pinnacle of classical music, and you have not found other works to match their best. I would agree that no one has written a symphony or string quartet that I enjoy more than Beethoven's best. And I could perhaps agree that no one wrote choral works that match Bach.

But I find an enormous amount of music written after (and well after) Beethoven that I think is top level work and among the best works written so I want to listen and explore much more music than that of my favorite composers. Are you suggesting that there is no reason to listen to later works because in your opinion they will not match your favorites?


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Totenfeier said:


> Art Rock is right; It's Mahler for you, my lad: Symphonies 1, 2, 4, 9 (in that order), and then the lieder, especially the _Ruckert Lieder_, and in the _Ruckert Lieder_, especially _Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen_. Garnish with a topping of _Das Lied von der Erde_, and get back to me.


Thank you. I have got all of Mahler's works in a box set and I can't get beyond symphonies 1 and 2.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

You will never ascend higher in your quest for the sublime than you have with Bach and Beethoven, but other composers have occasionally reached those rarefied heights and profound depths. I would cite Bruckner in his last symphonies,






and Wagner in his final opera, _Parsifal_:


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

You don't even have to go to other composers if you want music as good as the Cantatas or late quartets. Bach's keyboard music, especially WTC, Goldbergs, and many of the Suites are just as good as the Cantatas and Beethoven's symphonies and piano sonatas are as good as his quartets. Not sure why you feel the need to elevate the Cantatas and late quartets above all other music. I love the late quartets as much as any music but I love many other pieces as much.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

beetzart said:


> Blimey! Many of those pieces are amazing (I have not heard all of them) and I think many are better then Beethoven's 6th. Yet I don't think his 6th is the best, not even top ten. I think Beethoven's finest work is his final string quartet. There is a small sequential passage in the slow movement about 2 3rds through that is beyond words. And to me that is better then all the pieces you have listed, or the ones I am familiar with which is about 90-95%.


Not surprising because taste is personal. I love the late string quartets, but rate them lower than the pastoral symphony.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> You don't even have to go to other composers if you want music as good as the Cantatas or late quartets. Bach's keyboard music, especially WTC, Goldbergs, and many of the Suites are just as good as the Cantatas and Beethoven's symphonies and piano sonatas are as good as his quartets. Not sure why you feel the need to elevate the Cantatas and late quartets above all other music. I love the late quartets as much as any music but I love many other pieces as much.


I can only assume it is because of my personal taste etc.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Art Rock said:


> Not surprising because taste is personal. I love the late string quartets, but rate them lower than the pastoral symphony.


And the pastoral isn't even Beethoven's best symphony! (tastes may differ )


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

beetzart said:


> I can only assume it is because of my personal taste etc.


And you would be right.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

beetzart said:


> After discovering Beethoven's late string quartets and JS Bach's cantatas I feel no other music comes close, for me personally. I am trying to listen to Mendelssohn and his music is something special but it is not in the same league as Beethoven. I suppose Schubert is the nearest I can get to Beethoven or even Czerny. Handel and Scarlatti are close to Bach but again not in his league. Schumann and Brahms wrote some very good music but still not as good as Beethoven. So it feels like the end of the line. Is there anything out there as good as Beethoven and Bach that I haven't already mentioned?


In this thread, you've received many excellent recommendations for composers and specific pieces. Speaking from my position as a Beethoven fanatic, I'd like to add another type of suggestion: you might enjoy listening to many different recordings of your favorite Beethoven works, if you haven't done so already.

When you discover the joys of comparative listening, you'll never have to reach the end of the line with Beethoven, because there's always another recording to try. It's amazing how different his works sound in the hands of different performers/conductors--for example, Chailly's and Furtwangler's recordings of the 9th sound like two completely different symphonies.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

beetzart said:


> Blimey! Many of those pieces are amazing (I have not heard all of them) and I think many are better then Beethoven's 6th. Yet I don't think his 6th is the best, not even top ten. I think Beethoven's finest work is his final string quartet. There is a small sequential passage in the slow movement about 2 3rds through that is beyond words. And to me that is better then all the pieces you have listed, or the ones I am familiar with which is about 90-95%.


Sounds like you are in a pickle here.  Maybe you are idealizing too much? I had a hard moving on from Mozart.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Bettina said:


> In this thread, you've received many excellent recommendations for composers and specific pieces. Speaking from my position as a Beethoven fanatic, I'd like to add another type of suggestion: you might enjoy listening to many different recordings of your favorite Beethoven works, if you haven't done so already.
> 
> When you discover the joys of comparative listening, you'll never have to reach the end of the line with Beethoven, because there's always another recording to try. It's amazing how different his works sound in the hands of different performers/conductors--for example, Chailly's and Furtwangler's recordings of the 9th sound like two completely different symphonies.


I recently brought the Alban Berg recording of the last quartets. They are a bit nippy but I enjoyed it.


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

I assume you heard Liszts' sonata in b-minor?

Beethoven is one of my favorite composers too but Liszts' sonata for me is in the same league, together with some other Liszt works. Liszt is definitely one of my favorites when it comes to orchestration. 

I find some Prokofiev also Beethoven-worthy.

Beethoven ticks of many boxes but for sure there are other composers that tick of boxes that are un-ticked by Beethoven, if you know what I mean. 

Webers' "Der Freischutz" is a huge box that stays very un-ticked in Beethovens' oeuvre 

Against Händels' arias (and even Mozarts' arias) Beethoven is also with empty hands I'm afraid.

As for Bach I'm a Händel-fan so I'm not going to bother you with that :lol:


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

Have you heard Liszt's transcriptions of the Beethoven symphonies? Really worthwhile!!!

Konstantin Scherbakov recorded them all.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2017)

beetzart said:


> I recently brought the Alban Berg recording of the last quartets. They are a bit nippy but I enjoyed it.


The Alban Berg quartet are the finest IMO,but there are two different recordings,the studio but also the later recorded Live recordings wich are also available as DVD


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

beetzart said:


> After discovering Beethoven's late string quartets and JS Bach's cantatas I feel no other music comes close, for me personally. I am trying to listen to Mendelssohn and his music is something special but it is not in the same league as Beethoven. I suppose Schubert is the nearest I can get to Beethoven or even Czerny. Handel and Scarlatti are close to Bach but again not in his league. Schumann and Brahms wrote some very good music but still not as good as Beethoven. So it feels like the end of the line. Is there anything out there as good as Beethoven and Bach that I haven't already mentioned?


"End of the Line" thinking ignores a great deal, but to each his own. One thing to consider, then remember, all are learners and borrowers on the evolutionary train of classical music.

*Bruckner, Mahler, Scriabin, Shostakovich, Schnittke *could help bring you forward. :tiphat:


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## Totenfeier (Mar 11, 2016)

beetzart said:


> Thank you. I have got all of Mahler's works in a box set and I can't get beyond symphonies 1 and 2.


Out of curiosity, what box set is it (conductor(s)/orchestra(s))?


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Razumovskymas said:


> Have you heard Liszt's transcriptions of the Beethoven symphonies? Really worthwhile!!!
> 
> Konstantin Scherbakov recorded them all.


Yes, and I love them. I have heard his B minor sonata and it is very impressive along with his transcendental etudes.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

beetzart said:


> Thank you. I have got all of Mahler's works in a box set and I can't get beyond symphonies 1 and 2.


Do give Mahler's Third a go. It's a fabulous work.


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## lluissineu (Dec 27, 2016)

Bettina said:


> In this thread, you've received many excellent recommendations for composers and specific pieces. Speaking from my position as a Beethoven fanatic, I'd like to add another type of suggestion: you might enjoy listening to many different recordings of your favorite Beethoven works, if you haven't done so already.
> 
> When you discover the joys of comparative listening, you'll never have to reach the end of the line with Beethoven, because there's always another recording to try. It's amazing how different his works sound in the hands of different performers/conductors--for example, Chailly's and Furtwangler's recordings of the 9th sound like two completely different symphonies.


I absolutely agree with Bettina about comparative listening. It's perhaps my favourite activity in classical music.

Concerning composers, I love Beethoven as well, but Brahms, Shostakovitch, Mahler, are very dear to me. In another sense Mozart (I'm absolutely a Mozart lover) and Verdi. Ravel, Elgar, Prokofiev.

Neither Bach nor Wagner are my options, which doesn't mean I don't like their music.

I'd take Bettina's advice of comparing different recordings and meanwhile trying new composers.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Vaneyes said:


> "End of the Line" thinking ignores a great deal, but to each his own. One thing to consider, then remember, all are learners and borrowers on the evolutionary train of classical music.
> 
> *Bruckner, Mahler, Scriabin, Shostakovich, Schnittke *could help bring you forward. :tiphat:


Apart from the last name on your list I have comprehensive recordings of all those composers. I do tend to collect music these days mainly because of Amazon and it's almost infinite library of music at cheap prices. Bruckner is right up there IMHO and I wish I could get into more of Mahler. I am yet to be won over by Scriabin and Shostakovich.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

beetzart said:


> I wish I could get into more of Mahler.


Keep listening!


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

beetzart said:


> Yes, and I love them. I have heard his B minor sonata and it is very impressive along with his transcendental etudes.


Ok, you're officially at the end of the line now!

But I guess you won't mind listening to some Beethoven as consolation to that sad realization


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Traverso said:


> The Alban Berg quartet are the finest IMO,but there are two different recordings,the studio but also the later recorded Live recordings wich are also available as DVD


The studio recording are a bit more refined I would add.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

Why draw a line at all? If anything, the problem isn't running out of music; it's realising that you'd need a few lifetimes to listen to all the music composed. (Hurrah for reincarnation!) There are hundreds of composers out there, whose music you may never have heard, of whom you may not even have heard - and you may find you love their music. Go and discover what else is out there!

...

Starting with Berlioz and Mahler.


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## Orpheus (Jul 15, 2012)

beetzart said:


> Apart from the last name on your list I have comprehensive recordings of all those composers. I do tend to collect music these days mainly because of Amazon and it's almost infinite library of music at cheap prices. Bruckner is right up there IMHO and I wish I could get into more of Mahler. I am yet to be won over by Scriabin and Shostakovich.


Regarding these last two, since you seem to like serious, complex, demanding music, I would be inclined to suggest that in the case of Scriabin you avoid his orchestral works, which tend to be uneven, and stick to the solo piano stuff; particularly the ten sonatas, and not forgetting his many études and preludes, some of which are among the most interesting pieces of their type (imho, naturally).

With Shosty, you would probably prefer his more introspective works. I'm thinking particularly of his string quartets, which I suspect you would get on with much better than his larger-scale works, particularly as the quality is consistently high, and the musical language, if not identical, is quite mutually intelligible with that of Beethoven's later quartets at times (though I think it can be generally said to lack its transcendent and spiritual qualities). You might also want to consider his 24 preludes and fugues, op.87, and his swansong, the viola sonata, op.147.


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