# César Franck and Vincent D'Indy



## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

I am just getting into these two composers. I group them together because D'Indy was a pupil of Franck's. Other than that, it's relatively arbitrary. These are just two composers I have very little music by.

*What is your opinion on these composers? Can anyone recommend some works by these composers to check out and perhaps specific recordings as well?*

Right now, all I have from D'Indy is the _Symphonie cévenole_, and from Franck I have the _Violin Sonata_ and _Panis Angelicus_. Three works!

So I'm looking to expand my collection of works by these composers. Doesn't guarantee I'll like all I hear, but right now I'm listening to the relatively obscure 2nd piano concerto by Franck and I think it's excellent.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

For *Franck,* I´d try the "Prelude, Choral & Fugue" for piano, as a lyrical and beautiful example. The lesser known early _piano trios_ are quite good, but not so representative of the later, heavier Franck.

For *d´Indy*, the "Symphonie Cevenole, On a French Mountain Song", inspired by the Cevennes Mountains, with a concertante piano. The "Triple Concerto" shows him in a more classically balanced mood.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

The big commonality between the two - and also Saint-Saens, in terms of French 19th century composers - is cyclic form. I did a long post on it as part of my "contrasts and connections in music" here. It may provide useful info for you.


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## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

Sid James said:


> The big commonality between the two - and also Saint-Saens, in terms of French 19th century composers - is cyclic form. I did a long post on it as part of my "contrasts and connections in music" here. It may provide useful info for you.


You know it's interesting, I was actually going to make a connection between them and Saint-Saëns, but I didn't really know why (other than that they were French and from around the same time). "Cyclic form" is very interesting and I really didn't know they had that in common. Not so arbitrary after all, this grouping 

Now, I did know about cyclic form in the context of Saint-Saëns' Symphony No. 3 (didn't know that's what it was called), but that was about all.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Tristan, I'd throw Lalo into your hopper! Suggest his Cello Concerto in D minor. For Franck, The Accursed Huntsman (Le Chasseur Maudit, can't beat the name) and his Symphonic Variations.

D'Indy's pickings are slim in my book.


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## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

Yeah, I did read that the Symphonie cévenole was his only regularly performed work, so I imagine it will be hard to find more by him.

But thanks for the suggestion about Lalo--I haven't heard much by him either.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

If you're interested in Lalo, his Symphonie Espagnole is probably his most popular work, very fine indeed.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Tristan said:


> You know it's interesting, I was actually going to make a connection between them and Saint-Saëns, but I didn't really know why (other than that they were French and from around the same time).


You may be interested in Saint-Saens' "Les idees de M. Vincent d'Indy," which includes a lot of discussion of Franck. Some interesting observations, and lots of amusing snark.

https://archive.org/details/lesidesdemvinc00sain


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Everything by D´Indy has been satisfyingly recorded. There´s a lot of chamber music as well, but it´s been too long since I heard some of it. I remember parts of it being quite fresh, though.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

For Franck, I would recommend the Symphonic Variations, the Symphony in d minor and the piano quintet in f minor.

I don't know much of his repertoire either, but those three pieces along with the violin sonata you already have are probably is most well regarded, or at least most popular, works.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

There is a very good Franck 2-disc 'starter pack' from the budget Erato 'Ultima' label which includes the following works from his fertile autumn years:

Piano Quintet in F Minor
Violin Sonata in A Major
Symphony in D Minor
Symphonic Variations
Prelude, choral et fugue for piano

On top of these, I would recommend:

String Quartet in D Major (Bartholdy Quartett on the Christophorus label)

Complete Organ Works (Jennifer Bate on Regis - 2 discs)

Franck also wrote some decent symphonic poems - most are gathered on a DG Eloquence disc featuring Barenboim and Ansermet.


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

So far, most of my favorite Franck pieces have been mentioned. The Prelude, Aria, and Finale for piano is also a good one

I've never listened to d'Indy


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

About cyclic form and Franck: Of course this was just rebranding a long standing practice used by CPE Bach, Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann, Brahms, Liszt, etc. Part of this is due to the efforts of D'Indy, who, in his _Cesar Franck_ (a book on the life and works of his teacher), seemed intent on giving Franck more precedence in the technique than he deserves. D'Indy's pronouncements and analyses have since been perennially cited as authoritative, when in fact they are ill-informed and inept, respectively. He claims, for example, that the Sonata in A grows out of a single kernel or motif but makes a mess of the argument. He also fails to note that at least one of the crucial thematic connections In Franck's Symphony in D minor (the murky, dreamlike reappearance in the finale of the symphony's opening motive amid harps and horns) echoes Brahms's Third Symphony, which Franck had heard a couple of years earlier. Nevertheless, Franck's thematic unification of his major mature works was highly skillful and well executed - but the idea that it was some innovation of his can perhaps be chalked up to the work of an overly zealous pupil.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Not familiar with D'Indy but I worship Franck. Most of my favourites from him have been mentioned, with the exception of the magnificent _Les Beatitudes_ oratorio. A very original piece of work, it succeeds in sounding uplifting, solemn and sublime (and at times even soft and sensual!), without sounding at all like the tradition of the genre, Händel, Haydn and Mendelssohn. More like Debussy teaming up with Bruckner!


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## sdtom (Jul 7, 2014)

I can tell you that if you do get into d'Indy a little you'll probably like "Symphony On A French Mountain Air." In my opinion this is his strongest piece. He was a follower of Wagner and parts of his work "Wallenstein" have the dramatic Wagner influence. He has a one movement cello piece called "Lied" played with a lot of feeling and passion by Bryndis Halla Gylfadottir first chair cellist for the Icelandic Symphony Orchestra. His "Prelude to Act III of Fervaal plays out like a Wagner opera but has some strong ideas in it.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

If you don't explore Franck's organ works, you've missed the boat.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

Their music sounds to me like if they were trying to be French by writing bad German music.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Their music sounds to me like if they were trying to be French by writing bad German music.


So you think the Franck Symphony sounds German? I can't imagine any German writing that finale theme. Or the Violin Sonata? And his efforts at cyclic unity are more subtle and successful than any German in that era. I'm not sure he sounds altogether French either, but German?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

"Franck" derives from the Franks, the old Germanic tribe that merged with the Gallo-Romans, and Franck was a Germanic Belgian by birth. His music has always felt vaguely like a German-French hybrid to me. The Wagnerian influence on late 19th-century French music, including Franck's, is clear, and his chromatic harmony is Wagner-derived; the opening of the symphony could be lifted from a Wagner opera (both harmonically and motivically), and the portentousness and weightiness of the whole work seems very un-French. Franck's tunes, though, are peculiarly his own. Strange composer, I think. I found his music distinctive and arresting early on, but most of it seems a bit tired now. Or maybe it's me who's tired.


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