# What's in the men conductors that women can't do?



## music20

Hi, I am a music student from Southeast Asia.Currently, I am taking up conducting lessons. Some are giving opinions that usually female conductors are not as effective as male conductors. In the history of music, most known conductors are men and I didn't even hear a woman's name in the list.What can you say about it? What's in the men conductors that women can't do in conducting a choir? Do you know of any women conductors who became popular in such field?


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## david johnson

Keri-Lynn Wilson is my favorite.

dj


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## opus67

One name I know - Joann Falletta

Of course, having read David's post, I've come to know of another.


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## Keemun

Marin Alsop is the only female conductor I can think of. (Click HERE for her website.) As for conductors being historically male, that can be said of almost any chosen/elected leadership position (as opposed to a position that is inherited), whether it be corporate CEOs or the leader of a country. Asking what men can do that women cannot do in the field of conducting is to open a debate on the merits of the two sexes that would be both endless and pointless.


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## Oneiros

Bah, come to Australia and get a good dose of feminism - then you won't even listen to those fools. 

Seriously though, try not to let it bother you. We're in the 21st century now, and those sorts of opinions about women are becoming more and more archaic. If you're dedicated and passionate, you can be as successful as you want to be, regardless of whether anyone has done it before you.


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## Roni22

I had the honour of singing in a choir conducted by Therees Tkach-Hibbard. Absolutely wonderful woman, and a very very effective conductor. I think she now left Imperial College though.

I still cherish the thought of once singing in a choir with her conducting!


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## Chi_townPhilly

As long as this topic began in the "Voice and Choir" thread, I'll hint at my previous hometown by mentioning former Chicago Symphony Orchestra Chorus Director Margaret Hillis, who (I'm made to understand) has also "understudied" in the event of conductor cancellations. I've also heard Catherine Comet live, and found it to be a quality concert. 

Perhaps our New England contingent can share any memories of Sarah Caldwell, and our Albion Islanders can add some observations on Sian Edwards and/or Jane Glover.


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## Manuel

Keemun said:


> Marin Alsop is the only female conductor I can think of. (Click HERE for her website.) As for conductors being historically male, that can be said of almost any chosen/elected leadership position (as opposed to a position that is inherited), whether it be corporate CEOs or the leader of a country. Asking what men can do that women cannot do in the field of conducting is to open a debate on the merits of the two sexes that would be both endless and pointless.


It seems you can watch her here at the Concertgebouw.


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## LFcatface

Anyone interested in the subject of gender and conducting might find the below link to the article ,Divine Diva Intervention:the myth of the male maestro
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/beverly-wettenstein/divine-diva-intervention_b_66348.html

I will be up front and admit that I did know "Bubbles" Beverly Sills(Manuel) but I have not spoken to her since her death.

Eve Queller is one of the most well known and best loved conductors in the opera world and Rebecca Miller (I have performed under her baton) is an up and coming conducting star that music fans should watch.

Let's also remember that women were not even permitted to be full members of the Vienna Philharmonic until 1997!!!!!!

In that kind of an environment how can we even begin to think that the fact that there have been,historically, fewer female Maestros, has not been influenced by societal limitations placed upon women?


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## Manuel

Me said:


> It seems you can watch her here at the Concertgebouw.


I watched the 2006 all Shostakovich concert some days ago. It was fantastic. She is at the Baltimore SO now, isn't she?



> I will be up front and admit that I did know "Bubbles" Beverly Sills(Manuel) but I have not spoken to her since her death.


Had you spoken to her since then, it would have been a curious experience I suppose.


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## Lisztfreak

I don't think women are less good at conducting, it's simply that there are much, much less female conductors. Since the ratio of women-to-men in the business is about 1:300, it's rather understandable that we hear of very few masterful ''conductoresses''. Why they are so few, in the first place, is unclear to me, but we must be aware that classical music has always been a ''men's business'' (as have most of the things) and that women simply engage less in it. There are a couple of female virtuosos, very few female composers, and even less female conductors. It's bad, and we can blame the tradition.

I know of Clio Gould, for example. I have a disc with her conducting the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra: it's ''English String Classics''.


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## Guest

Of course woman are as good at conducting as they are at composing, very good at multi tasking but lack the ability to focus (in general)


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## LFcatface

*Conducting requires both*

Conducting requires both concentration and multi-tasking.

As is the words of a Russian conducting teacher.

He said, very urgently, "You have to focus, you have to focus!"

Except the o in focus was pronounced like a short U as in the sound of u in the word "up".

Everyone there was hysterical with laughter!

hee, hee,


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## trojan-rabbit

Perhaps the big stage presence?


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## barkingbartok

After working with so many horrible choir conductors, male and female, it's sort of makes sense to me now. Choir conductors often can get by with talking a lot about all the music they know, yelling at the chorus, and let the accompanist do all the work. (Obviously there are some great chorus directors out there, but there are just as many or more really bad ones in way too high of positions). So when you look at it that way, the ability to smoke a cigar while mixing in Faure with a conversation over sex and religion is just as important as any other musical skill... giving many guys the advantage. -Really, it does seem like there is preference to guy directors, I'm sure not based on ability, but more so on likability as a guy. Choral directing is almost as much image as it is leadership, and too many people long for that worldly cigar smoking music savvy man image over the strong puritan woman image.


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## Guest

LFcatface said:


> Conducting requires both concentration and multi-tasking.


No No, You can not focus *and *multi task, that is the problem, to focus you need to have no other rubish in your head. pure concentration, nothing less


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## Gustav

nonsense, Simone Young recorded some fine Bruckner not long ago.


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## Chi_townPhilly

I recognize that I'm straying a little bit from the topic matter, but I found this quote interesting:


Andante said:


> No No, You can not focus *and *multi task, that is the problem


I agree that you can't focus at PEAK efficiency while performing some other task. That, however, doesn't completely preclude focusing ability... particularly when some of the "sub-routines" are relatively autonomic.

There's a phenomenon I like to call "split-focus." I have some limited ability in that regard- e.g.: sometimes, I can listen to two people talking to me at the same time, and be able to absorb, verbatim, what both parties are saying. There are far more transcendent examples of this... they say that Julius Caesar was able to dictate to 7 scribes 7 different sets of instructions to various provinces contemporaneously... and Caesar would bounce from scribe to scribe, remembering the particulars of where he left off, almost never losing his place.


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## Guest

To focus your mind means to apply *all* of your thought and concentration to the subject in hand be it Music, driving, sport etc to the extent of obliterating all other conscious thought. This is not easy to do for the average person. However well you think you can cope with two separate and different thought processes is subjective, and better results would be achieved with pure focus. 
In practice the ability to focus, plus, ability in the task at hand makes the difference between an average result and an excellent result.
Male and Female brains are different in this respect [_*at least in the articles that I have read*_] most men just can not do two things at the same time, if they try it's a hundred to one that they will make a mess of one of them, they eventually learn to accept this . Woman on the other hand are experts at this but find it much harder and sometimes impossible to FOCUS.
I apologise if I offend any one.


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## LFcatface

Hi Andante,
I have to disagree" applying all of your thought" to music is a split -focus activity. Concentrating on one thing would make the performance of music impossible because music is a complex activity. Some activities such as playing the organ obviously involve "split-focus" and others like playing a single line instument while, not being as obviously complex, in reality are highly complex and do not involve 'pure focus". Accompanists must pay attention to their own playing (right hand, left hand, foot for pedaling, page turns, the soloist's phrasing, dynamics, etc)
Playing music is mult-tasking and multi-focusing along with blocking out" interference" both external and internal. 
I am not offended by your gender generalizations, but I do feel that this way of thinking is a short cut to good judgement and does not provide as accurate a picture of the world as viewing individuals a person at a time.
That being said... I am now going to make a silly generalization- I have found that male musicians generally are less stereotypically masculine and female musicians are less stereotypically feminine. But maybe it is really the case for all people and I hold this view simply because I am in contact with musicians more than other professions.


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## Guest

LFcatface,

To focus means to focus on the task in hand, and in this case we mean music and in particular conducting, so you do not want to have in your mind things such as: last nights party, is the car really that bad, did the fool really mean what he said etc etc. this is what I was getting at.
You say “a single line instrument” I am not clear what you mean??
I used to play Bass also Flute at no time was I thinking left hand right hand, it just becomes automatic, I would assume that a keyboard player would be the same (once they are proficient). 
To use another example, take a formula one driver, the focus must be entirely on driving, no extraneous thoughts or the result is a poor performance or a big bang. 
Just a word on your comments re generalisation not being good judgment compared to individual assessment, surly both are valid. 
Going back to the question of this thread the term men also women was used which itself is a generalisation how else can it be answered other than by generalisation?
So I stand by my suggestion that generally men can focus more easily than woman and that relates to better results, and yes, there are exceptions to every rule.


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## LFcatface

Hi Andante,

What I mean by a single line instrument is an instrument that plays one note at a time like flute or voice , a bass is not strictly a single line instrument since it is capable of playing more than one note at a time.

Two hands and a mouth coordinating together to play a single note on a flute is not as complex a task as playing a polyphonic piece on the organ with two hand and feet working together. Accompanying/ or coaching an opera singer while evaluating his/ her musicial precision , diction , technique and acting while playing from an orchestral score and singing the other parts requires attention on many, many things at one time.

An opera singing executing complex staging while singing a patter song in a foreign language, and watching a conductor in the pit from some angles and watching a conductor in a monitor at other angles requires a divided focus. You can't forget your words and you can't step on the feet of the other performers. You can't go on automatic either or you will not be expressive in your acting or able to respond to spontaneous changes from the conductor.

There are many real world musical skills that simply do require musical multi-tasking. One of them is conducting. Making sure that the basson soloist gets a little cue a second before the chorus gets a big cue , while keeping the beat going and the strings phrasing together might just require the same kind concentration it took for a cave woman to build the fire and keep it going, while making sure that Cave Man Jr doesn't fall off a cliff and baby cave girl doesn't wander off and get eaten by a tiger. 

Can't you even consider the idea that the kind of concentration that in which women (generally) might excell might actually be useful to a Maestra?


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## Guest

I agree with you regarding the complexity of a keyboard instrument but a wind or string player has other problems to contend with, but that is diverging from this thread. 
We seem to be at odds with the meaning of focus and multi tasking and I have explained this in my last post so will not repeat myself. 
Re your last paragraph. Using my meaning of "to focus" the answer to your question is *No*.


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## LFcatface

As I am a professional musician and singing teacher and have only done several papers on the psychology of performance, mostly dealing with concentration as it concerns performance anxiety and not gender, I therefore decided to consult with several singing students of mine one former and one current, who both happen to be psychiatrists.
Both indicated that they would consider having such things enter your mind as " last nights party, is the car really that bad, did the fool really mean what he said etc etc. " during the playing of music would indicate the person with such interfering thought MIGHT have attention deficit/hyperactive disorder.
I looked up this discorder and I learned that:
"ADHD is much more common in males than in females. There are studies which report that males with ADHD outnumber females by at least 4 to1".

In my own experience I have not noticed a difference between the ability of males and females to be able to concentrate. But everywhere I looked the data came back as concentration problems are much more common males.


My conclusion is that a female brain is not a barrier to being a conductor but how males, especially of the older generation perceive female brains, might be a problem.


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## Guest

*Wow*, I will have to have a rest and give my overworked Brain a bit of a rest, being so old is not all fun and ............. damn where was I?? 
I have to get my PC memory upgraded RAM and a HD up grade, might just call in at the shrink while I am at it. lol


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## Guest

*LF catface*

I just had to make this post in case my PC is out of action tomorrow.
ADHD is a neurological disorder and I would have thought anyone suffering from this would be unlikely to have the concentration to study music to a proficient degree. The fact that it occurs in male more than females means what?
So you do not agree with my suggestion, fine, what is your explanation as to why males out perform females in conducting and most other things.


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## D Minor

By the way, it is well known than Alzheimer's Disease affects more women than men. And then? What consequences? lol .


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## LFcatface

*Hi Andante*

You most recently wrote
##ADHD is a neurological disorder and I would have thought anyone suffering from this would be unlikely to have the concentration to study music to a proficient degree. The fact that it occurs in male more than females means what?##

On Dec 3rd you wrote
To focus means to focus on the task in hand, and in this case we mean music and in particular conducting, so you do not want to have in your mind things such as: last nights party, is the car really that bad, did the fool really mean what he said etc etc. this is what I was getting at

All I said was that when I asked the two people I know who know thae most about the brain about your examples of lack of focus "to have in your mind things such as: last nights party, is the car really that bad, did the fool really mean what he said etc etc. this is what I was getting at" were examples of what they would describe as what might be more likely to happen in a female brain. They BOTH independantly said if someone were to have in their mind " things such as: last nights party, is the car really that bad, did the fool really mean what he said etc etc. " it would suggest ADHD which is more prevalent in men.

I agree with you that someone with ADHD "would be unlikely to have the concentration to study music to a proficient degree" especially if we are defining music as western art music and not pop and rock music. I know musicians in the commercial music field who seem to both have attention problems and good careers.

You wrote
"So you do not agree with my suggestion, fine, what is your explanation as to why males out perform females in conducting and most other things. "

I would prefer to stay on topic with the conductors , because I think enough has been writtten about "other things".
I would like to offer my personal observations

1) I have noticed that given two music students of equal skill , males are more likely to have the confidence to stand before a group of musicians and lead.
2) I have seen players openly question and refuse to cooperate in a professional way with female conductors on several occasions. In both circumstances the uncooperative player was male and older than the conductor. Both situations were stressful dress rehearsals and in my opinion both times the conductors should have received cooperation and not been questioned because they were using normal methods and making normal requests. 
3) I have heard many people say that they simply don't like the way it looks or that women simply should not be conductors , it seems to me to be the same kind of resistance that some people have to female Rabbi's and Ministers.

I think that some of the most exciting and talented conductors of the new generation are women and I look forward to the day when their ability will define the limits of their achievements and not stereotypes about their gender.


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## Ephemerid

This discussion reminds me of something similar Carl Sagan discussed and I have to interject it here...

From _The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark,_ pg. 381-382:
_
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Some stereotyping is the result of not controlling the variables, of forgetting what other factors might be in play. For example, it used to be that there were no women in science. Many male scientists were vehement: This proved that women lacked the ability to do science. Temperamentally, it didn't fit them, it was too difficult, it required a kind of intelligence that women don't have, they're too emotional to be objective, can you think of any great women theoretical physicists? ...and so on. Since then the barriers have come tumbling down. Today women populate most of the subdisciplines of science. In my own fields of astronomy, and planetary studies, women have recently burst on the scene, making discovery after discovery, and providing a desperately needed breath of fresh air.

So what data were they missing-- all those famous male scientists of the 1950's and 60's and earlier who had pronounced so authoritatively on the intellectual deficiencies of women? *Plainly, the society was preventing women from entering science, and then criticizing them for it, confusing cause and effect:*

You want to be an astronomer, young woman? Sorry.

Why can't you? Because you're unsuited.

*How do we know you're unsuited? Because women have never been astronomers.
*
Put so baldly, the case sounds absurd. But the contrivances of bias can be subtle. The... group is rejected by spurious arguments, sometimes done with such confidence... that many of us... fail to recognize it as self-serving slight of hand. 
_
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In other words, the reason why in the past there have been so few female conductors or composers (or have not gained recognition as such) is because of a pre-existing bias. Not unlike the idea that "*******" were subhuman and lacked intelligence, but the reason why is they were barred from having any education. *If you don't give people a chance, the bias "confirms" the prejudice. *

Anyway, over the years I have worked under male and female conductors, worked with male and female musicians, worked alongside male and female composers and I have yet to detect any difference of quality along lines of gender (or sexual orientation). Getting bogged down in semantics of "multi-tasking" or "focussing" is only muddying the waters needlessly.

I would think in the year 2007 this would be such a dead issue.

"The discovery of truth is prevented more effectively, not by the false appearance things present and which mislead into error, not directly by weakness of the reasoning powers, but by preconceived opinion, by prejudice." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer

~ josh


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## Guest

*LF catface*
I do agree with your comments 1.2.3.
I have just attended a concert with a woman conductor and quite honestly was not impressed despite her getting good write ups in the press.
She did not have control over the orch but made a great display of jumping up and down on the rostrum arms flaying uncontrolledably. At the end she thanked each section and just about each individual player it was really overdone and it seemed that the players were slightly embarrassed by this. The hard work should have been done at rehearsal but obviously something was lacking and amiss, I realise that this can happen to male conductors and mention it because it seemed relevant to your point #2. I will not identify her on this forum but have sent you a PM with her name etc

*fool on the hill* you say:
*If you don't give people a chance, the bias "confirms" the prejudice. *
Are you implying that women have been put off conducting because of a male bias? also in life you make your own chances and if you are good enough you will be noticed.

You also say* "Getting bogged down in semantics of "multi-tasking" or "focussing" is only muddying the waters needlessly" *I do not accept this, it is my deliberately provocative way of answering the original question and I believe it is at the very least part of the answer, I accept your political correctness how ever the fact remains that Men and Women are different, we think, react and perform differently.


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## Chi_townPhilly

Since our household proudly contains a "Politically Incorrect" T-shirt, I'd like to think that your heart is in the right place, but when you say


Andante said:


> Are you implying that women have been put off conducting because of a male bias? Also in life you make your own chances and if you are good enough you will be noticed.


I don't think you're making your strongest point. Handling the first part of your premise, a prolific author has identified three demographics that have had difficulty ascending to positions of prominence in conducting. One is women. The second is a demographic where, if one argued that their brains were temperamentally unsuited to conducting, one would be labelled a racist, probably righly. The third could not possibly be construed to be unsuited to conducting, as they have among their number such musical titans as Tchaikovsky and Britten. So... (if I were to presume to answer for Mr. Hill) the brief response to your question is "yes."

The second part of your statement, (if you are good enough you will be noticed) can be used as a rationale for avoiding the cultivation of talent altogether. Now, of course, I recognize that this wasn't the intent of your wording. However, one could use that sentence to rationalize restricting opportunities for artistic development entirely, because if you're really a great performer, you'll "make your own chances."

That would be a most unfortunate outcome.


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## Guest

Chi town, I am having difficulty following you post it must be ADHD lol, can you clarify please.


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## Chi_townPhilly

Hi, there, Andante: I attribute all difficulties to _my_ obliqueness and lack of clarity. My points were- 1) yes, I believe there to be some bias regarding conducting, and I don't believe it to be limited to "male bias." and 2) the idea that "genius and talent will out" is an attractive one-- we'd like to believe that meritocracy will eventually triumph in these matters, but, (as T.S. Eliot said) "between the conception and the creation falls the shadow." I think we can both agree that there are too many examples of "hype-creation" performers (I'll avoid mention of names here) to believe that the most worthy artists will always emerge from the pack.

As I had an opportunity to reflect further on this topic, I thought about the following:
a) In pre-Elizabethan times, the very finest high-range singers were considered to be castrati and countertenors. We have moved beyond those mutilative times, although (in a case of everything old is new again) countertenors are once again a topic of discussion. 
b) Clara Schumann to the contrary, the idea of female virtuosi was considered quite an oddity in the Victorian era. We now have prominent female virtuosi in every solo instrument of note, and rightfully.
c) The idea of all-male orchestras persisted, embarrassingly, until the last quarter-century. The success of integrated orchestras (and the efficacy of screened auditions) have spoken to the benefit of putting that episode in our past.

Finally, at the final threshold of Western Art Music performance, is the idea of the female conductor. So- is there really something intrinsic that will prevent the acceptance of this development, or will this ceiling turn out to be glasswork, like all of the others?


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## Guest

Chi_town/Philly said:


> Hi, there, Andante: I attribute all difficulties to _my_ obliqueness and lack of clarity.


Let us share the problem of my failure to understand your post, you are most kind.

I agree that between conception and creation are many obstacles, but I am on about a person that has emerged from that place into the position of operating to an excellent degree. 
I agree that 2nd raters can be made into saleable products we see that happening all the time, I simply mean that if you are a talented artist (conductor) and have ambition you will be noticed, of course for this to happen you must make sure you perform *[ambition]* otherwise how would any one see you, women have successfully done this in instrumental playing and have been playing in orchestras for many years now, our own national sym orch has 40% women [35 of the 90 full time players] even in the mid 50s a small local orchestra that I played in had approx 15- 20% women players ! and there are many woman conductors in the world today, but how many are at the top? 
Regarding glass ceilings, no I don't think that women will make an impact on the conducting world or for that matter in composing


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## RebLem

I agree with the attitude expressed by a male character near the beginning of the film _Urban Cowboy_. "There's nothing a man can do that a woman can't, except p*** against a wall."

I also heartily endorse ChitownPhilly's mention of Margaret Hillis as one of the better women conductors of the last 60 years. If there truly is a Last Judgment, which I seriously doubt, lots of folk ought to be called to account for the fact that she was never offered the music directorship of a major symphony orchestra. Marin Alsop, music director of the Baltimore Sym Orch, is another who, as mentioned by another poster, is really an up and coming conductor. One other I want to mention is an Israeli conductor named Dalia Atlas (maiden name), and Dalia Atlas Sternberg (married name). She has conducted a couple of magnificent recordings of music by Ernest Bloch, and I would really like to hear her record more.


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## Guest

I have heard performances of Marion Alsop, *(how much longer do you think she needs??) *also Jane Glover with the London Mozart Players but very few others. 
The fact remains that Conductors are not players favourite people and players can make a conductors life hell, men can handle this usually by rising above it with single minded concentration and not getting emotional…?……!……!……….?. 
So a conductor must have authority, be assertive, command respect from the players and must be a leader without being bossy these are things that a woman (generally) would find very difficult, admittedly the exception brakes the rule.
I had hoped that a reply from say a working rank and file musician would be forthcoming to give another perspective but perhaps they are to busy to come online. I find that I am repeating my self a lot so will make no further posts unless something really interesting or controversial comes up. Regards A….


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