# Which instrument so I can play classical music? (viola/clarinet/piano)



## kreggurree

So I am a sax player first, in the phase of trying to return to my playing standard from when I was 18 (26 now, I stopped for a few years at uni). There is one thing that I miss as a saxophone player and that is being able to play classical music. I know this is not entirely true as I have played some classical written for saxophone and some arrangements but this is not enough for me.

So I am trying to decide between viola,clarinet and piano. Here are my thoughts on my options :

Piano -

Not portable, except with a car (digital piano assumed here)
Can teach myself (I have had a few starter lessons in the past and have had a go at teaching myself so am confident in this with the amount of resources available)
Can practice anytime I want with headphones. (currently sax practice is restricted by neighbours)
So much solo material means I can be satisfied playing at home on my own
On the other hand it is likely I will never be able to play with others in a serious way

Viola - 

Portable (though larger than I first thought)
Definitely need a teacher
Cheaper than cello yet still has a lovely rich tone
More opportunity for playing with others (amateur orchestras, etc.)
Will take a while to get to that standard

Clarinet -

Portable
Easiest to transition to despite the differences that I am well aware of
Time spent on clarinet will contribute to my sax playing
Can also act as an embochure maintainer when travelling as its so portable
There are some really nice pieces for clarinet though I possibly don't love them as much as the others
Only 2 clarinets in Orchestras, no idea how hard it is to get into amateur orchestras?

Piano has lots of advantages but I think the ability to play in Orchestras would be nice (especially as I will probably return to living in Prague in 3/4 years where there are several amateur orchestras). Then its kind of between Clarinet and Viola, which is pretty much between time to learn and more pieces I like/orchestral opportunities. I also imagine string quartet opportunities exist more than chamber/trios with clarinet.

What are your thoughts?
In particular I am curious about the time to get viola up to amateur orchestra standard (with 4-7 1h practices a week?
Is there a lot of clarinet competition to get into amateur orchestras? (therefore needing to be that much better)


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## kreggurree

Sorry for the double post but I can't see a way to edit. 

I just wanted to add I am aware that learning time is kind of a how long is a piece of string question that varies based on whether I take to that style of instrument or not amongst other things. And that clarinet competition will vary in different cities but a general idea might be helpful.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Just a suggestion, as something similar to a sax but not a sax maybe try a bass clarinet. They are similar but different ie bass is black lol and a bit thinner. Just a thought.
Me I'll stick to my banjo


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## arpeggio

I am American. I have no idea the state of amateur orchestras in Prague. Any recommendations I could make would be based on my experiences in the US.

I am currently an amateur bassoonist but I started on Saxophone. I know many bassoonist who used to be saxophonists. The big problem with bassoon is they are so expensive.

My first recommendation would be the clarinet. The fingering in the upper register is similar to the sax. The problem with playing a clarinet with an orchestra is that one would actually need three clarinets. Along with the Bb, one would also need an A and a C clarinet. Clarinet parts in classical orchestral music can be written in Bb, C or A.

My second recommendation would be the oboe. The fingering is similar to the sax. In the US there are not that many amateur oboists and the competition to get into an amateur orchestra are not as great as clarinet.

As far as stings are concerned I would recommend the double bass. I know it is more difficult to transport that the piccolo, but I have known wind players who as adults successfully learned the double bass well enough to play in an amateur orchestra.

Wish you luck.


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## Jaws

In the UK there is a shortage of amateur viola players. Is there a way of finding out if this is the case where you live? There are always too many clarinetists here.


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## kreggurree

Well currently I actually live in Essex, UK (close to Chelmsford). From September I will probably be living in Southgate/Cockfosters in North London for 2/3 years before I move to Prague.

I imagine if I took up viola I would barely be ready for an amateur orchestra before I left the country, though I could certainly join the East London Late starters group.

Clarinet on the other hand I am confident of getting to a proficient level in a year or two but maybe not enough to fight the glut of clarinetists.

Thanks for your responses so far.


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## lorelei

One important thing to consider is the tone. Which instruments' tone do you like best? 
Also, it is good to weigh the difficulties of each instrument. For example, in piano an important consideration is nuancing multiple lines simultaneously, while for clarinet good breath control is important.


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## kreggurree

I love the tone of each in different ways and depending on the context. I do tend towards mellow pieces as my favourite and each can do these well.

*Tone wise these are the strengths that stnad out to me:*

The viola can be intense and gut wrenching(no pun intended) even when playing a slow piece

Piano doesn't necessarily pull at me with individual notes but the textures it creates mmmmmm

Clarinet has nice peacful tone often and in some way I feel like a woodier darker sound to the sax (I would say the other two edge it out in my tone preference)

*In terms of nuance of playing :*

Viola is mainly a single line instrument like I am use too and the big difficulty is good tone production at speed, similar issues to sax but all done in a completely new and way that is alien to me

Piano I am comfortable single handed and my biggest challenge is playing multiple lines at once and reading 10 notes at once and telling my fingers to do that

Clarinet is the most familiar, new fingerings (with holes - oh no!) but same general style, new embochure and air flow control for tone but again using muscles I am alreayd aware of how they shift due to saxophone playing. So whilst I will need to shape my oral cavity in different ways for different tasks I have more control already than a non wind player.

Saying all that I am pretty sure that if I could start the Viola at the level I would be starting Clarinet I would undoubtedly go with viola.


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## Head_case

> What are your thoughts?
> In particular I am curious about the time to get viola up to amateur orchestra standard (with 4-7 1h practices a week?
> Is there a lot of clarinet competition to get into amateur orchestras? (therefore needing to be that much better)


Wow, that's rather tough going.....are you a little overambitious perhaps?

If you enjoy the instrument, wouldn't it make sense to learn the viola, and see where you get (hopefully) in a few years?

I would have thought that as a saxophone player, the alto flute would have been more intuitive for you (what with the same transposing scales and similarities with embouchure control)...


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## kreggurree

Well I was basing practice time on being able to match the amount of time I spend on the saxophone (obviously would have to be worked up to as muscles need to develop like with sax embouchure), obviously there will be days where one or the other will have to reduced. Now I consider having to balance with saxophone playing I imagine 30 mins most days with several 1h sessions.

I guess my issue is I enjoy all of them and I am utilising pragmatic things to choose between them. Sadly flute has never really appealed to me much. There are certain contexts where I think it is beautiful but I just can't see myself that committed to it (also I am more of a Bb tenor sax player anyway) Thanks for the suggestion though.


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## Head_case

That's okay..... Bb Flute D'Amore will earn you solo spot in an orchestra :lol:

If you don't mind me saying, 1 hour a day's practice is really not very much (maybe enough to get warmed up?). If you're taking up the viola, your left hand will need some time to form calluses or it will really hurt too).

The problem with doubling on a non-similar instrument, is that a viola and a saxophone won't complement the skills you're developing. I know very few convincing doublers, but ymmv...


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## kreggurree

I must have got confused I thought you were saying my plan to practice that much was overambitious. (though on the sax forums amateurs that get 1h or more a day of practice are in a minority so I can see why some might see it as overambitious)

I have guitar calluses but that is small part of the big picture. For the reason you state is why I have been looking at the clarinet (or maybe another woodwind oboe?) as it shares so much with the sax (though in annoyingly subtly different ways) and its the cheapest one to buy into meaning overall smallest risk.

Admittedly I am thinking about all this with my current work context where I have time, and maybe I should stick to being a saxophone singler and enjoy classical as a listener and focus on Jazz for my playing. Or I could end up leaving sax behind as I get into clarinet because its so much more portable.

ps. please don't take this as people putting a downer on me I am just thinking out loud. I regularly suffer from paralysis by over analysis.


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## Jaws

kreggurree said:


> Well currently I actually live in Essex, UK (close to Chelmsford). From September I will probably be living in Southgate/Cockfosters in North London for 2/3 years before I move to Prague.
> 
> I imagine if I took up viola I would barely be ready for an amateur orchestra before I left the country, though I could certainly join the East London Late starters group.
> 
> Clarinet on the other hand I am confident of getting to a proficient level in a year or two but maybe not enough to fight the glut of clarinetists.
> 
> Thanks for your responses so far.


?As you are in London, if you fancy having a go at playing the viola at East London Late Starters Orchestra, I can lend you a viola to get started on from my musical instrument library. I don't charge for loans, but I ask borrowers to insure the instrument this usually doesn't cost very much because although many of my instruments are quite old they have repairs which devalues them for insurance purposes. Collectors of string instruments like them to be perfect and in very good condition without repairs. I don't care about restoration, but I do mind what they sound like.


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## Head_case

Way'd it go Jaws! 

That's too good an offer to turn down 

Kreggurree - sorry for the ambiguity. Yes I meant that <1h practice a day wasn't much. I do double that for the flute, although perhaps I'm rather pedantic about my playing, since I'm trying to ressurect a kind of historical genre of playing, instead of copying contemporary conventions. 

The challenge of going from a woodwind or brass (never know which a saxophone is, since it seems to be a bit of both) to a viola is huge. You have keys on your saxophone; the viola is fretless and requires you to learn the pitch positions for each string. The embouchure skills of your sax will have no import to the viola, as posture and bowing take on a new learning dimension. 

But why not dabble in the viola, just to get a taster, and then decide? That's the best way to go. Take up Jaws on his offer 

FWIW - I used to play clarinet. I still have a mint condition one. At one point, I was using Vandoren 3.5 reeds and really enjoying it. I barely play it more than 20 minutes every few months. I had to go back down to 2.0 ....


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## kreggurree

Jaws that is indeed a very kind offer. Though as far as I am aware ELLSO only accepts complete beginners in September? Maybe I can also find a teacher to do a taster lesson for me.

I think your right I should just dip my feet in to see if its for me or not.


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## Jaws

kreggurree said:


> Jaws that is indeed a very kind offer. Though as far as I am aware ELLSO only accepts complete beginners in September? Maybe I can also find a teacher to do a taster lesson for me.
> 
> I think your right I should just dip my feet in to see if its for me or not.


It is the only way to find out what to play is to have a go. I know that you already play sax, but in some cases people have a go at playing the clarinet only to discover that they don't like the feel of a reed vibrating in their mouths. You never know what can put people off something until they try it.


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## hreichgott

Jaws said:


> It is the only way to find out what to play is to have a go. I know that you already play sax, but in some cases people have a go at playing the clarinet only to discover that they don't like the feel of a reed vibrating in their mouths. You never know what can put people off something until they try it.


Agreed. Choice of instrument is kind of like meeting a new friend, or dating. You can have an idea of what you are looking for, but it's only once you are together that you really know 

No one has addressed the ensemble issue yet, so let me chime in. Mostly it depends on the type of group you are interested in being part of. Piano gives you a huge range of options for chamber music and accompanying. Every choir needs an accompanist, most "solo" pieces for non-piano instruments call for piano accompaniment, and there is a lot of great repertoire for piano trio (piano/violin/cello) and a smaller amount for piano quintet (string quartet/piano). But if you want to be in a community orchestra your options are limited. You more or less have to have a secondary instrument that you can play well enough to hang around in the back of the section for 80% of the orchestra's rep until they call on you to play piano for 16 bars of oompahs in "Hoedown". Or you can learn piano concerti and perform as the soloist, but obviously the ramping-up period there is quite long and performance opportunities are competitive.

Violas are always in high demand compared to other instruments, of course, but viola playing tends to be more "pure" ensemble playing -- not nearly as many exposed parts to shine on as with clarinet. Some people enjoy not being exposed though.


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## Head_case

> Choice of instrument is kind of like meeting a new friend, or dating.


I dunno about that. When i'm done with a flute I've been playing, I sell it on.

I'd feel really unkind putting the ex-girlfriend on Ebay.


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## kreggurree

Sorry for not responding for a few days its been pretty hectic. Thanks for the comments on ensemble playing Heichgrott it gives piano a little more hope.

On the viola front I have found a local teacher who I just need to call and see if a taster/first lesson is possible.

What I haven't been mentioning is the war that has been happening in my head as I listen to lots of music for these instruments. I was discovering pieces on viola that cut through me like the cello does and then a few nights a go the piano struck back as I listened to sonata after sonata and remembered the intricate beauty that can be made with piano (I love Debussy, Satie and Chopin on piano) and then earlier today I discovered what would probably be my holy grail clarinet piece that I would aspire to be able to play in 20 years : Brahms clarinet sonata no.2.

I even considered oboe once I realised the sound i always imagined in my head was not the reality but then I saw the price 
Same again once I looked at alto flute, it has such an ethereal tone but again the price argh!


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## Head_case

York Bowen's viola concerto to cheer you up 








> I even considered oboe once I realised the sound i always imagined in my head was not the reality but then I saw the price
> Same again once I looked at alto flute, it has such an ethereal tone but again the price argh!


There's no accounting for oboes. Stratospherically priced huh?!

The alto flute is very mellow and sultry in its lowest octave; the second and third octaves are sublime and ethereal, without being uncomfortably high pitched. They aren't actually that expensive compared to other instruments - you can get a really decent one like the Trevor James black nickel one for under £1k although an orchestral one will cost around £3-5k. This is a solid player, and nothing is more sexy than a nickel black plated alto flute!

But why buy...if you can try one out by joining an ensemble group? The only thing is...I don't know anyone who has learnt alto flute who hasn't learnt concert flute playing first. It's much harder to go straight to alto flute. Maybe you'll be okay if you're used to saxophone?

A clarinet can cost less than £100 s/h - that would achieve your dream to play Brahms' clarinet sonata


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## kreggurree

I am actually looking at second hand hanson sonata clarinets (serviced ex-lease) for £100 with shipping. If I wanted to consider alto flute seriously then I would go via c flute and its probably possible to find as good a deal as the clarinet one once I have researched the models.

Thanks for the concerto it was very nice.

ps. also I am not sure I want to be making the strange oboe expressions


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## Head_case

Haha ....did you watch that awful youtube video of the mystery of the oboe player's loss of control of his eyebrows?!

That's a fair price for the Hanson Sonata clarinet (for retail that is). If it's guaranteed, that's the minimum you'd wish from a second hand clarinet - it has so many keys that if one doesn't seal, it's a head_ache to work out which one to fix. They are usually made of ABS resin or 'ebonite' which means that they won't go mouldy on you whilst you learn. They do not sound as good as a real wood clarinet, but they are good enough if you like the clarinet sound. Make sure you get a Bflat model btw....unless you can afford a A & Bb pair to start off with.

With the concert C flute, the most standard contemporary models are the Yamaha 211 (around £150 s/h); the Trevor James TX10JIII (the III is important) around the same. You can get really nice Buffet Crampon Cooper Scale ones with a split E for around £100. There are some dodgy brands like Venus, or unnamed ones which have drifting mechanisms. The student Selmer ones are okay for a few years too.

I'm more a fan of the wooden conical flute - it's probably shockingly expensive compared to a silver Boehm flute, but the sound is very special. I have a spare one lying around somewhere but the problem is, it could be anywhere :lol:

Don't forget Gumtree and www.preloved.co.uk - they are dodgy at best, but if you are on a real 21st century student recession budget, if you bring an experienced friend, they can check out any secondhand instrument and advise you and chances are you'll get a decent instrument at a fraction of the cost.


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## Jaws

Oboe is a huge problem to make sound nice. There are lots of amateur players who think that playing the oboe is about how fast you can move your fingers. If you listen to the sound they make even the best ones can't even the sound up on every note, and many of them sound really bad. Also you have to spend hours altering reeds even if you buy them.


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## stanchinsky

I'm a pianist and don't get me wrong I do love the piano, but the viola is so beautiful. Theres always a shortage of viola players and never a shortage of pianists so your instrument will be 'in demand' so to speak. If you decide to go with viola or clarinet you should study piano as a secondary instrument, because only through its use will you be able to understand music from a harmonic and conterpunctual mindset. Also learning piano will teach you to read both clefs, and give you a visual representation which will aid in your understanding of chords, arpeggios ect. Not to mention if you ever want to study composition or just try your hand at it, you will be composing on a piano for the above mentioned reasons. I've been entertaining the crazy notion of beginning the viola myself.


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## Novelette

I would go with the viola.

String instruments are such a joy to play. In my experience, though, there is a bitter honeymoon period with new instruments. First, elation and great excitement upon receiving and first playing the instrument. A few days later sets in slight disillusionment. When I took up the violin, my fingers hurt moderately because of the strings [I had this irrational fear of cutting my finger on the E string--needless to say, it never happened], but most of all, the pinky on my right hand was in quite a bit of pain for about two weeks:

The pinky, naturally the weakest finger, is used to stabilize the bow. As a long instrument, the bow's angular force puts most of its downward weight on your pinky. True, it doesn't weigh very much, but it takes a little while for your pinky to strengthen enough to enable you to use the bow commodiously. It only lasts a short while, and then it is no longer a problem at all.

The most important thing is not to become discouraged. Instruments are always a little bit frustrating at the beginning, just keep at it!


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## kreggurree

Thanks for more input. 

I can't really do piano in addition as that would then be my third instrument. I think the feeling of disillusionment was even worse when I returned to the sax as I knew I was better in the past.


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## Nariette

I've played a lot of instruments(in chronological order: piano-flute-violin-guitar-viola, but I can play electrical bass too), and at the moment I'm serious about the piano and the viola, but I jam on my elctric guitar too. Even though I play the piano and viola I'm not just going to recommend them to you because I play them myself, that's silly. 
The piano can be described as easier than other instruments, because the technique isn't nearly as much as other instruments. Though, some people can never learn to independently let their hands play, and keep struggling. The piano can do a lot on its own, and is therefore a solo instrument most of the time. That is an advantage, but also a disadvantage. If you want to be a soloist, you need to be good, which takes time. But, on the other hand, you have a wider range of tone. Piano can be seen as a basic advantage, especially in light music(light music defined as: music that is not classical). Trying to break through as a pianist is like all the girls saying they want to be a model: There is a lot of competition. And, about teaching yourself, there is always a chance that you will learn it the wrong way, so I would not recommend teaching yourself.
If you want to get into an orchestra, play the viola. The viola, together with bassoon and contrabass, is one of the instruments they always need. When I started viola, I barely knew anything, but the leader of the orchestra said I could join when I could play the first position, because they always need violists. The viola is easy to carry though, and not nearly as big as you think. I'm only 1.63 m tall, my hands are ridiculously tiny, and my viola is quite big(bigger than average), and I can still play it. 
The clarinet is with the flute the most famous wind instrument. Though a lot is written for clarinet, a lot of people play it, so if you want to be in an orchestra that badly, I do recommend the viola. The clarinet has a very nice sound though, and if you have experience in saxophone, the switch might be easier. Emphasis on the might, I haven't played flute very long, so my knowledge on wind instrument is limited. 
You are quite ambituous, but you haven't played a lot of classical yet, so try to do a lot on the theory too.
I hope this was useful. I would advice to have joy in your playing, instead on trying so hard to get known. Playing for yourself can be a lot of fun too.


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## kreggurree

Thanks for taking the time to respond Nariette. 

I am not trying to get known at all, I am already lucky enough to have my main passion as my career where I am striving to be the best I can. I just wish to be able to enjoy making music with others and not just on my own at home, I have no professional aspirations or delusions of being anything more than, at most, an average amateur.

For the sake of this thread as a whole I Just want to clarify I have no intention of being a soloist on any instrument or making any money out of my playing. I just want to be able to play classical music for my personal enjoyment and also to play with others where I am happy to be a little cog that contributes to the whole sound. 

My musical experience is 10+ years of playing the saxophone, A-Level music, Self-Taught guitar since I was 17. I have played classical on saxophone before, often forming a trio with a clarinet and piano where I take the cello/viola part and the clarinet the violin part, but my experience with playing classical music is much much more limited than my experience playing jazz and blues.

I think I need to be a bit more thoughtful in how I write on forums as I realise that the nuance of what I am saying is often lost. 
I really didn't think my desire to play in an amateur orchestra was that ambitious unless I have misunderstood (Unless community orchestras are different to what I thought). I thought that expecting it to take several years minimum to get to that point was realistic. 

If this really is that hard of a thing to achieve I might be better off focusing on finding Sax opportunities in the many genres available and just go clarinet for personal classical playing and as a useful double.


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## Head_case

> I think I need to be a bit more thoughtful in how I write on forums as I realise that the nuance of what I am saying is often lost.


For someone who only has 11 forum posts to date, all I can say is keep trying.

I've over 1,000 posts and everything I say atrophies as soon as I hit the return button


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## Jaws

kreggurree said:


> Thanks for taking the time to respond Nariette.
> 
> I am not trying to get known at all, I am already lucky enough to have my main passion as my career where I am striving to be the best I can. I just wish to be able to enjoy making music with others and not just on my own at home, I have no professional aspirations or delusions of being anything more than, at most, an average amateur.
> 
> For the sake of this thread as a whole I Just want to clarify I have no intention of being a soloist on any instrument or making any money out of my playing. I just want to be able to play classical music for my personal enjoyment and also to play with others where I am happy to be a little cog that contributes to the whole sound.
> 
> My musical experience is 10+ years of playing the saxophone, A-Level music, Self-Taught guitar since I was 17. I have played classical on saxophone before, often forming a trio with a clarinet and piano where I take the cello/viola part and the clarinet the violin part, but my experience with playing classical music is much much more limited than my experience playing jazz and blues.
> 
> I think I need to be a bit more thoughtful in how I write on forums as I realise that the nuance of what I am saying is often lost.
> I really didn't think my desire to play in an amateur orchestra was that ambitious unless I have misunderstood (Unless community orchestras are different to what I thought). I thought that expecting it to take several years minimum to get to that point was realistic.
> 
> If this really is that hard of a thing to achieve I might be better off focusing on finding Sax opportunities in the many genres available and just go clarinet for personal classical playing and as a useful double.


One person I know of who played the clarinet took up the cello to get a place in an amateur orchestra, because all the clarinet places were full, but most orchestras can accommodate another string player.


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## Nariette

woops, sorry for misunderstanding you, it's not your fault, I just read too quickly and sometimes miss important details. sorry for the inconvenience. 

There is not a minimal amount of years before you can get into an orchestra, it depends on your skill. If you manage to master the technique very quickly, and you probably already understand the theory, there is a chance they will accept you. Again, on violists, they are always eager, and will gladly accept you. Though finding a teacher for viola can be a nuisance, because there simply aren't a lot of them. The orchestra sometimes has connections with teachers, that's how I found my teacher. You might even be able to borrow an instrument from the orchestra, under the promise to join them when your skill has developed enough. 

I would just reccommend the instrument that speaks to you the most, the most important thing is to have fun in your playing.


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