# Opera dreaming



## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

What opera would you most like to see in a good production with good singers, but don't think you will? Mine would be Norma. I just don't think we have a soprano who can do te role justice like Callas did. Truly great Normas are rare.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Ain't that the truth.

I believe Netrebko is singing it at the Met next season. Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear! She simply doesn't have the technique. There's a video of her singing _Casta diva_ in concert on youtube. Her articulation of the gruppetti is ungainly and jumpy, her chromatic scales are just slithers and she has absolutely no trill. How on earth is she going to sing the complete role?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

And what's with Bartoli signing Norma? I know that voice ranges were considered rather different back then but unless her voice has changed, the idea seems a bit odd.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

_Don Giovanni_ with Simon Keenlyside as the Don and Ildebrando D'Arcangelo as Leporello.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Becca said:


> And what's with Bartoli signing Norma? I know that voice ranges were considered rather different back then but unless her voice has changed, the idea seems a bit odd.


The recording is a travesty. I hope I never have to listen to it again.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

duplicate post deleted


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

To go back in time to the Bernstein conducted Fidelio of 1978 with Gundula Janowitz is my dream opera. Can add to that, the La Fille du Regiment with Mariella Devia and the L'elisir d'amore conducted by Muus with Valeria Esposito. All three are on DVD and all three have excellent casts in my opinion.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Trovatore Karajan conducted in Vienna is on DVD with Domingo, Cossotto, et al. Absolute stunner of a performance even if the picture is none too good!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Until we have a Callas for _Norma_, and a Flagstad and Melchior for _Tristan_, I will not hear those operas adequately sung in the theater and won't even think of going to the theater to see them. Really, though, there are a lot of works, most of them 19th-century, which are presently almost impossible to cast well. Early opera up to Mozart, and 20th-century opera outside of verismo, generally fares better.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

DavidA said:


> The Trovatore Karajan conducted in Vienna is on DVD with Domingo, Cossotto, et al. Absolute stunner of a performance even if the picture is none too good!


Very true , and don't forget his Don Carlo from Salzburg DVD.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Until we have a Callas for _Norma_, and a Flagstad and Melchior for _Tristan_, I will not hear those operas adequately sung in the theater and won't even think of going to the theater to see them. Really, though, there are a lot of works, most of them 19th-century, which are presently almost impossible to cast well. Early opera up to Mozart, and 20th-century opera outside of verismo, generally fares better.


I think you are forgetting the late Jon Vickers as Tristan!


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## clara s (Jan 6, 2014)

24 August 1960 and the ancient theater of Epidaurus is full of 20.000 admirers, 
waiting to enjoy at last "Norma" with Maria…

Imagine if we could travel back in time and live that day.
Tulio Serafin the conductor, the orchestra of greek National Opera set on the stage
of one of the most beautiful ancient theaters with a perfect sound, surrounded by huge trees, 
wonderful summer night, and us in the front row… waiting…

And there she was, her voice heard in all its glory, 
from coloratura to very dark, low note, soprano.
Incredible… She was the mother, the woman, the lover, the priestess.

"Mira o Norma"… a mysterious dream


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Diminuendo said:


> What opera would you most like to see in a good production with good singers, but don't think you will? Mine would be Norma. I just don't think we have a soprano who can do te role justice like Callas did. Truly great Normas are rare.


Once again it seems we do not see things the same way. First your criticism of Richard Tucker's stupendous performance in _La forza del destino _and now, it is really hard to believe you ever saw Sondra Radvanovsky doing _Norma_ and still can come away stating that no one "can do [te] role justice just like Callas did" (whatever that means).
Different strokes....


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Until we have a Callas for _Norma_, I will not hear those operas adequately sung in the theater and won't even think of going to the theater to see them.


From reading your posts, and even learning from you, you seem to really express yourself better than many about opera and for that reason it kind of surprises me that you tossed aside a brilliant performance of_ Norma_ by Sondra Radvanovsky. Or maybe you never saw her doing it, in which case, I would sincerely urge you to change that error fast and then come back and give your opinion. La Divina is indeed divine, but Radvanovsky's performance takes a back seat to no one's!


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## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

nina foresti said:


> Once again it seems we do not see things the same way. First your criticism of Richard Tucker's stupendous performance in _La forza del destino _and now, it is really hard to believe you ever saw Sondra Radvanovsky doing _Norma_ and still can come away stating that no one "can do [te] role justice just like Callas did" (whatever that means).
> Different strokes....


I don't criticize Tucker. He is one of the greats. I just prefer other singers. And all these are just my own opinions. And Callas for me is Norma. Others might think differently. I think this is the beauty of opera. There are so many singers for a certain role and some people like one singer and some like another. Just fantastic isn't it


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> I think you are forgetting the late Jon Vickers as Tristan!


Oh dear. When and where is the late Mr. Vickers scheduled to appear? Will the late Birgit Nilsson be his Isolde?

Evidently reports of their deaths have been greatly exaggerated.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Diminuendo said:


> I don't criticize Tucker. He is one of the greats. I just prefer other singers. And all these are just my own opinions. And Callas for me is Norma. Others might think differently. I think this is the beauty of opera. There are so many singers for a certain role and some people like one singer and some like another. Just fantastic isn't it












My best (opera) buddy loves completely different singers to me but we don't denigrate each other's opinions or each other's choices.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> From reading your posts, and even learning from you, you seem to really express yourself better than many about opera and for that reason it kind of surprises me that you tossed aside a brilliant performance of_ Norma_ by Sondra Radvanovsky. Or maybe you never saw her doing it, in which case, I would sincerely urge you to change that error fast and then come back and give your opinion. La Divina is indeed divine, but Radvanovsky's performance takes a back seat to no one's!


Thank you for bringing Radvanovsky to my attention. Though I haven't seen her in the theater, I have listened to her a number of times. Her "Casta diva" is available in several versions on YouTube. She sings the aria very well, but the cabaletta "Ah, bello" exposes weaknesses. I'd concede that she might be a very creditable Norma, but not the equal of Callas in any aspect of her singing except for more reliable high notes. Not to be hypercritical, but her coloratura is imprecise, her tone monotonous, her diction lacking incisiveness, with impure Italian vowels. No doubt these things are less noticeable if we can watch her, assuming that she acts the part well. Altogether I don't experience, listening to her, the distinctive, commanding vocal presence that Callas - or Ponselle or Caballe, or even Sutherland - brought to the music. I hear a very good soprano doing a very good job.


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## Green pasture (Aug 11, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Thank you for bringing Radvanovsky to my attention. Though I haven't seen her in the theater, I have listened to her a number of times. Her "Casta diva" is available in several versions on YouTube. She sings the aria very well, but the cabaletta "Ah, bello" exposes weaknesses. I'd concede that she might be a very creditable Norma, but not the equal of Callas in any aspect of her singing except for more reliable high notes. Not to be hypercritical, but her coloratura is imprecise, her tone monotonous, her diction lacking incisiveness, with impure Italian vowels. No doubt these things are less noticeable if we can watch her, assuming that she acts the part well. Altogether I don't experience, listening to her, the distinctive, commanding vocal presence that Callas - or Ponselle or Caballe, or even Sutherland - brought to the music. I hear a very good soprano doing a very good job.


More than a dozen YT friends praised Radvanovsky to the skies as "the Verdi soprano of our age" when her career took flight in the late 2000s. Given the dearth of spinto voices in the Italian repertoire, her emergence seemed to be an answer to many opera fans' prayers and I guess that's why they were and possibly still are crazy about her. I saw and heard her TROVATORE Leonora on YT. She gave an undeniably heart-felt performance, but her tone lacked the wide palette of colours and shades that Callas commands and as you said, her diction lacked incisiveness. Furthermore, I agree with you that she still has a lot of work to do in developing a truly individual, distinctive, commanding vocal presence and personality that make Callas, Ponselle, Muzio, Olivero, Caballe and Sutherland so telling.

Radvanovsky is a case of the excellent being compared to the greats, with the excellent still found wanting in crucial aspects that make the greats great. Perhaps her artistic stature may grow further with time.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Thank you for bringing Radvanovsky to my attention. Though I haven't seen her in the theater, I have listened to her a number of times. Her "Casta diva" is available in several versions on YouTube. She sings the aria very well, but the cabaletta "Ah, bello" exposes weaknesses. I'd concede that she might be a very creditable Norma, but not the equal of Callas in any aspect of her singing except for more reliable high notes. Not to be hypercritical, but her coloratura is imprecise, her tone monotonous, her diction lacking incisiveness, with impure Italian vowels. No doubt these things are less noticeable if we can watch her, assuming that she acts the part well. Altogether I don't experience, listening to her, the distinctive, commanding vocal presence that Callas - or Ponselle or Caballe, or even Sutherland - brought to the music. I hear a very good soprano doing a very good job.


My thoughts exactly. I listened to some of the Norma excerpts on youtube too. Her _casta diva_ is certainly a lot better than Netrebko's , but, like you, I hear a very good soprano doing a good job. At no point does she illuminate the music in the way Callas does. Nor would I put her in the same league as Caballe or Sutherland in this music. The search for the next great Norma still goes on.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

I watched Ms. Radvanovsky singing Norma a few months ago, at Barcelona's Liceu, with Gubanova and Kunde. She did a good job, though fighting sometimes with Mr. Palumbo's lethargic tempi, and she received a deserved ovation from the audience, myself included.

Ms. Radvanovsky, that sang the role for the first time in Oviedo, is a true dramatic soprano, with a big voice, but also able to sing pianissimi and filati (not always perfect, true), though her vibrato can bother some fans, and her timbre is also not conventionally beautiful. Her legato, her phrasing, are correct, but with a limited fantasy, with little drama, especially when singing "Sediziosi voci" or "Dormono entrambi". 

She needs to control that torrent of a voice, and it's not always easy. I have watched her singing other roles, too, and she is an exciting soprano in (almost) all of them.


All in all, I think she is a nice option to cast as Norma today. Not a historical Norma, not by any means, but a really good one.


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## clara s (Jan 6, 2014)

Sondra Radvanovsky follows the right footsteps but...

"casta diva" needs much more than a very good voice and a very good job,

it requires aura, grandeur, teardrops, tenderness, soul,

it requires magic...

and anyway the thread is about opera dreaming


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

clara s said:


> and anyway the thread is about opera dreaming


Quite. It's degenerated into whether or not anyone else can sing _Norma_ as well as Callas.

I want to hear more opera dreams. 

As well as my _Don Giovanni_ dream I have this (when I win the lotto) dream. I'll buy a beautiful house which will have a music room and a Steinway and I'll hold intimate gatherings for friends and invite my favourite singers to perform their favourite pieces.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Diminuendo said:


> I don't criticize Tucker. *He is one of the greats. *I just prefer other singers. And all these are just my own opinions. And Callas for me is Norma. Others might think differently. I think this is the beauty of opera. There are so many singers for a certain role and some people like one singer and some like another. Just fantastic isn't it


I wouldn't say that based on what I've heard. Good but not great. Like to have heard him in Karajan's Trovatore though as the part is a bit much for Di Stefano. Tucker was originally pencilled in for the role but as a Jew did not feel he could perform with the ex-Nazi party member Karajan. be interesting to see conductors who Tucker did perform for as some German conductors were involved with the Nazis even though they weren't actually members of the party.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Oh dear. When and where is the late Mr. Vickers scheduled to appear? Will the late Birgit Nilsson be his Isolde?
> 
> Evidently reports of their deaths have been greatly exaggerated.


I did say the LATE Jon Vickers. I didn't think I'd actually have to spell it out to you in quite such detail but here goes! You initial post: 'Until we have a....... Flagstad and Melchior for Tristan, I will not hear those operas'. As Melchior was a complete one-off - a voice the like of which probably not heard before or since - you are restricting your choices somewhat.


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## Tietjens Stolz (Jun 2, 2015)

sospiro said:


> Quite. It's degenerated into whether or not anyone else can sing _Norma_ as well as Callas.


Callas is a hard act to follow anyway, so sopranos today tackling Norma shouldn't be bothered at all about whether they could handle the role as well as her. :lol:

P.S. In earlier ages, people would have said that Giuditta Pasta, Julia Grisi, Therese Tietjens, Lilli Lehmann and Rosa Ponselle were hard acts to follow. Among these illustrious ladies, I would love to hear the Norma of Pasta (the original creator of the role), Grisi (who created Adalgisa at the world premiere and later graduated to Norma), Tietjens and Lehmann.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Any decent, respectful production with good singers of Wagner is fine with me


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> I did say the LATE Jon Vickers. I didn't think I'd actually have to spell it out to you in quite such detail but here goes! You initial post: 'Until we have a....... Flagstad and Melchior for Tristan, I will not hear those operas'. As Melchior was a complete one-off - a voice the like of which probably not heard before or since - you are restricting your choices somewhat.


You misunderstand. I didn't say "until Flagstad and Melchior are reincarnated." I said "until we have 'a' - _'a'_ - Flagstad and Melchior..." The "a" implies, not them only, but "singers of their calibre." Vickers and Nilsson were near enough their calibre to get me to the theater. I could also have mentioned Germaine Lubin, Frida Leider, Helen Traubel, and a few others, including Jon Vickers; I didn't "forget" him or anyone, I just thought I'd make my point more concisely. But I do think Flagstad and Melchior, vocally, lead the pack, and that no present-day _hochdramatische sopran_ or _heldentenor_ I know of is within hailing distance of either of them. I'll have to be content with recordings.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> You misunderstand. I didn't say "until Flagstad and Melchior are reincarnated." I said "until we have 'a' - _'a'_ - Flagstad and Melchior..." The "a" implies, not them only, but "singers of their calibre." Vickers and Nilsson were near enough their calibre to get me to the theater. I could also have mentioned Germaine Lubin, Frida Leider, Helen Traubel, and a few others, including Jon Vickers; I didn't "forget" him or anyone, I just thought I'd make my point more concisely. But I do think Flagstad and Melchior, vocally, lead the pack, and that no present-day _hochdramatische sopran_ or _heldentenor_ I know of is within hailing distance of either of them. I'll have to be content with recordings.


the question of course has to be asked about Wagner's writing for the voice if so few singers in history could actually sing some of the parts he wrote. The purpose of opera is performance and that implies writing within the bounds of the normal operatic voice rather than a voice which occurs once in a lifetime. Interesting that Solti said in his autobiography that the main problem of performing Wagner "remained the singers. You can cast Mastersingers, Tristan and Parsifal, although with difficulty - but you cannot cast the Ring. I say that despite all performances at the [Bayreuth] festival are sold out years in advance." John Culshaw went into great detail in the difficulties of casting Siegfried as "although Wagner was writing about a super-youth he appeared to forget that he was writing for a human singer." The only Siegfried at the time was Windgassen and many would say his voice was somewhat light for the part. Interesting that Vickers would never tackle the part of Siegfried although he did sing Tristan. He knew Tristan would put huge strains on it but reckoned that the artistic and financial rewards of doing tristan would compensate.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

DavidA said:


> the question of course has to be asked about Wagner's writing for the voice if so few singers in history could actually sing some of the parts he wrote.


There's another viewpoint. Beethoven to Schuppanzigh: "Do you think I care about your damned fiddle when the spirit moves me?"


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> You misunderstand. I didn't say "until Flagstad and Melchior are reincarnated." I said "until we have 'a' - _'a'_ - Flagstad and Melchior..." The "a" implies, not them only, but "singers of their calibre." Vickers and Nilsson were near enough their calibre to get me to the theater. I could also have mentioned Germaine Lubin, Frida Leider, Helen Traubel, and a few others, including Jon Vickers; I didn't "forget" him or anyone, I just thought I'd make my point more concisely. But I do think Flagstad and Melchior, vocally, lead the pack, and that no present-day _hochdramatische sopran_ or _heldentenor_ I know of is within hailing distance of either of them. I'll have to be content with recordings.


What do you think of Alberto Remedios? Admittedly he is has been retired for some years but I saw him as Siegried in a Seattle Opera Ring in the early 80s (also with Rita Hunter.)


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

KenOC said:


> There's another viewpoint. Beethoven to Schuppanzigh: "Do you think I care about your damned fiddle when the spirit moves me?"


Oh yes! I had that in mnd too. But where fiddle playing has evolved and got better so players can encompass Beethoven's demands, the human voice does not appear to have done as far as Wagner is concerned. So there remain few (or none according to Woodduck) who can sing certain Wagnerian roles today. Interestingly John Culshaw speculates that by the time of Parsifal Wagner himself might have realised this as the part is far less demanding as far as strain on the voice is concerned. Of course a composer can write what he likes but part of the skill lies in writing for what the voice can actually accomplish not just what appears in his mind's eye.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

True enough!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Becca said:


> What do you think of Alberto Remedios? Admittedly he is has been retired for some years but I saw him as Siegried in a Seattle Opera Ring in the early 80s (also with Rita Hunter.)


Good singer! The fact that Remedios sang both Siegmund and Siegfried in Goodall's Ring does point to the paucity of singers who can manage the parts well.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I'm grateful Wagner wrote where his muse lead him.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Oh yes! I had that in mnd too. But where fiddle playing has evolved and got better so players can encompass Beethoven's demands, the human voice does not appear to have done as far as Wagner is concerned. So there remain few (or none according to Woodduck) who can sing certain Wagnerian roles today. Interestingly John Culshaw speculates that by the time of Parsifal Wagner himself might have realised this as the part is far less demanding as far as strain on the voice is concerned. Of course a composer can write what he likes but part of the skill lies in writing for what the voice can actually accomplish not just what appears in his mind's eye.


I think Wagner was well aware of how much he was asking of the human voice. He said at one point that he wanted to thin out some of the orchestration in _Tristan_, but that's one of several things he never got around to, including making further revisions to _Tannhauser_. His design for his theater in Bayreuth was, I feel sure, calculated partly with singers in mind; apparently the sunken orchestra and the amphitheater-like design are a real help to singers in projecting their voices out into the auditorium. I'm not so sure that _Parsifal_ is different mainly out of consideration for the singers, since everything in the sound of that work reveals a subtilization of Wagner's style. But neither should we take _Tristan_ as typical of Wagner's vocal writing. I don't know of anything as demanding of a tenor as its third act. The opera would just not be itself if that were otherwise.

There is widely conceded to be a shortage of large-voiced, technically well-schooled dramatic singers today, not only in Wagner but in Verdi and verismo opera. Wagner is certainly not impossible to sing well - Callas said she found him rather easy - but he does require strong, steady, resonant voices belonging to people who can project high drama and still maintain their vocal poise over a long evening. Over the history of singing, as recordings reveal, there have been many such singers. My post above is not even close to naming all of them. We just don't have many of them around right now, and none equal to the best of the past.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Becca said:


> What do you think of Alberto Remedios? Admittedly he is has been retired for some years but I saw him as Siegried in a Seattle Opera Ring in the early 80s (also with Rita Hunter.)


Remedios sounds appropriately youthful as Siegfried, at least as recorded. He was no heldentenor, and not really cut out for Wagner's other big tenor roles. I heard some of his Tristan and thought he sounded like a Rodolfo who took a wrong turn and ended up in Cornwall instead of Montmartre. Wagner's writing for both tenor and soprano tends to lie low, calling for more power in the middle of the range than most sopranos and tenors are comfortable with. Melchior and Vinay both started as baritones.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> From reading your posts, and even learning from you, you seem to really express yourself better than many about opera and for that reason it kind of surprises me that you tossed aside a brilliant performance of_ Norma_ by Sondra Radvanovsky. Or maybe you never saw her doing it, in which case, I would sincerely urge you to change that error fast and then come back and give your opinion. La Divina is indeed divine, but Radvanovsky's performance takes a back seat to no one's!












A true and wise observation, nina- as Radvanovsky isn't even on the same 'bus' as Callas.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

marschallin blair said:


> a true and wise observation, nina- as radvanovsky isn't even on the same 'bus' as callas.


welcome back!

N.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

But remember - there were plenty of mediocre to dismal performances of Norma and other difficult to cast operas in past decades , the so-called "Golden Age " of opera, which was not really as golden as many people imagine . 
Opera fans and critics have been idealizing the past of opera for as long as I can remember, when I caught the opera bug nearly 50 years ago as a kid .According to critics and fans, the singers of the present day are never as good as those of the past . 
And you can be sure that 40 or 50 years from now, when all of today's opera stars are gone, people will be longing for the"golden age " of Netrebko, Voigt, Fleming, Bartoli, et al .


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

superhorn said:


> And you can be sure that 40 or 50 years from now, when all of today's opera stars are gone, people will be longing for the"golden age " of Netrebko, Voigt, Fleming, Bartoli, et al .


Now there's a terrible thought!:lol::devil:


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Now there's a terrible thought! :lol::devil:


Grave New World, indeed.

(Pun intended.)


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## Elen (Feb 24, 2015)

There are other perfect singers. 
This voice is absolutely beautiful!
*Veronika Dzhioeva* - soloist of the Mariinsky Theatre and the Bolshoi Theatre, Russia


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Elen said:


> There are other perfect singers.
> This voice is absolutely beautiful!
> *Veronika Dzhioeva* - soloist of the Mariinsky Theatre and the Bolshoi Theatre, Russia


Well I'm not sure I'd call her perfect. The middle range is quite beautiful, but a disturbing hardness creeps in at the top, and intonation is occasionally suspect. She also takes rather too many breaths, which disturbs the legato line, and her downward chromatic scale at the end is really just a slither.

No match for versions by Ponselle, 





Callas,






Caballe






and Sutherland.


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> You misunderstand. I didn't say "until Flagstad and Melchior are reincarnated." I said "until we have 'a' - _'a'_ - Flagstad and Melchior..." The "a" implies, not them only, but "singers of their calibre." Vickers and Nilsson were near enough their calibre to get me to the theater. I could also have mentioned Germaine Lubin, Frida Leider, Helen Traubel, and a few others, including Jon Vickers; I didn't "forget" him or anyone, I just thought I'd make my point more concisely. But I do think Flagstad and Melchior, vocally, lead the pack, and that no present-day _hochdramatische sopran_ or _heldentenor_ I know of is within hailing distance of either of them. I'll have to be content with recordings.


And not only with recordings, I presume, but only recordings with Flagstad, Melchior and those who you consider their equals, if any? Would it not be odd to say I won't go to live opera until I can hear their equals, but I will listen to recordings with singers who are not their equals?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Steatopygous said:


> And not only with recordings, I presume, but only recordings with Flagstad, Melchior and those who you consider their equals, if any? *Would it not be odd to say I won't go to live opera until I can hear their equals, but I will listen to recordings with singers who are not their equals?*


Not odd at all, given the cost of attending a live performance of _Tristan_ or the _Ring_. For me that would mean traveling many hundreds, if not thousands, of miles and paying for food and lodging for several days, in addition to the cost of my ticket - a very substantial outlay. Recordings are much cheaper and last a lifetime besides. And who's settling for inferior singers? We have many recordings by the greats, and can listen to them and imagine what it must have been like to hear them in person.


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Not odd at all, given the cost of attending a live performance of _Tristan_ or the _Ring_. For me that would mean traveling many hundreds, if not thousands, of miles and paying for food and lodging for several days, in addition to the cost of my ticket - a very substantial outlay. Recordings are much cheaper and last a lifetime besides. And who's settling for inferior singers? We have many recordings by the greats, and can listen to them and imagine what it must have been like to hear them in person.


Fair enough. I understood it to be an aesthetic objection rather than a financial one. Both are relevant.

PS: I have no idea what geographical obstacles you face or the difficulties of attending live opera. But it is a different experience from recordings. Of course you know this, Woodduck, but I'd still encourage young opera lovers to get to as many live performances as possible, even if some are indifferent in standard. It provides the full experience of staging etc, is much more intimate, it is how nearly all composers of great operas expected audiences to enjoy them, and if it is less than outstanding that nevertheless provides a context for the outstanding ones.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Steatopygous said:


> Fair enough. I understood it to be an aesthetic objection rather than a financial one. Both are relevant.
> 
> PS: I have no idea what geographical obstacles you face or the difficulties of attending live opera. But it is a different experience from recordings. Of course you know this, Woodduck, but I'd still encourage young opera lovers to get to as many live performances as possible, even if some are indifferent in standard. It provides the full experience of staging etc, is much more intimate, it is how nearly all composers of great operas expected audiences to enjoy them, and if it is less than outstanding that nevertheless provides a context for the outstanding ones.


There is an unmistakable 'something' about a live performance but nowadays a second best can be had by attending a lve broadcast at a cinema. I've attended a few of the Met's live broadcasts and can say that the standard of singng is pretty good in those I've heard. Of course there will always be 'better' to be had given the now long history of recording. But I'm happy to enjoy the present day 'good' even though it might not be historically the 'best'.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> There is an unmistakable 'something' about a live performance but nowadays a second best can be had by attending a lve broadcast at a cinema. I've attended a few of the Met's live broadcasts and can say that the standard of singng is pretty good in those I've heard. Of course there will always be 'better' to be had given the now long history of recording. But I'm happy to enjoy the present day 'good' even though it might not be historically the 'best'.


You may be right about live broadcasts. At least the price is relatively low where the price of attending a live performance at Covent Garden, for instance, can be staggering. A good friend of mine, with whom I used to go to the opera quite regularly, paid out an enormous amount of money to see a recent production of *Madama Butterfly* there. It was a present for her husband, who had never been to the opera, and wanted to share in his wife's enthusiasm for it. She told me later that the performance was profoundly disappointing; a lacklustre revival of a repertory work. Only the Pinkerton had any worth in her (informed) opinion. The audience, for the most part, she said, seemed to love it, though they treated it rather like pantomime, booing Pinkerton when he took his bow, _because he was the baddie_. A totally dispiriting, and very expensive experience!

That's the problem, and one of the reasons I don't go that often. You can be lucky, as I was earlier this year with *Rigoletto*, or be terribly disappointed, and, frankly, I can't afford to be throwing away sums in excess of £100 on a ticket.


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## OperaChic (Aug 26, 2015)

Steatopygous said:


> Of course you know this, Woodduck, but I'd still encourage young opera lovers to get to as many live performances as possible, even if some are indifferent in standard. It provides the full experience of staging etc, is much more intimate, it is how nearly all composers of great operas expected audiences to enjoy them, and if it is less than outstanding that nevertheless provides a context for the outstanding ones.


I agree. I think going to a live performance is something that cannot be approximated by any other medium, and even if the performers and singers are less than world class, this is an invaluable and usually enjoyable experience for those relatively new to opera. However I will concede that there is probably a point one hits after seeing or being apart of enough live opera that they will get less out of a poor or mediocre experience, and so going to see a live opera unless it is a sure bet is probably less critical.


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

OperaChic said:


> I agree. I think going to a live performance is something that cannot be approximated by any other medium, and even if the performers and singers are less than world class, this is an invaluable and usually enjoyable experience for those relatively new to opera. However I will concede that there is probably a point one hits after seeing or being apart of enough live opera that they will get less out of a poor or mediocre experience, and so going to see a live opera unless it is a sure bet is probably less critical.


Yes, but there's never a sure bet, which is part of the thrill (when expectations are exceeded). I queued up from 5am at Covent Garden in 1981 to hear Pavarotti and Caballe in Masked Ball. Pavarotti had just got in from New York where his father was ill, or something, and the first half was disappointingly pedestrian. But the second had lift-off. Unforgettable.

Where I live, there is a top-class fully professional opera, a high-class professional opera, and three or four small part-time companies. The first is capable of disappointing (as is any company), and the small ones can be amazingly good. They know they have to be different from the big companies, so instead of fourth-rate Bohemes they do interesting rarer projects.

Recent examples include Menotti - the Consul; Bernstein - Trouble in Tahiti; Poulenc - La voix humaine; Copeland - The Tender Land; Ravel - L'Heure espagnole; Puccini - Gianni Schicchi; Menotti - The Medium; Britten - Curlew River; Ullmann - Der Kaiser von Atlantis; and many more. I'm very grateful for the chance to see these live. Recordings simply aren't as good, not for first acquaintance anyway. Recordings, no matter how good, do not have the special relationship between performers and audience that live performances engender.

The danger with listening only to recordings is that you can turn a living art form into a museum. Or, to put it another way, one must take great care not to do this.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Steatopygous said:


> Fair enough. I understood it to be an aesthetic objection rather than a financial one. Both are relevant.
> 
> PS: I have no idea what geographical obstacles you face or the difficulties of attending live opera. But it is a different experience from recordings. Of course you know this, Woodduck, but I'd still encourage young opera lovers to get to as many live performances as possible, even if some are indifferent in standard. It provides the full experience of staging etc, is much more intimate, it is how nearly all composers of great operas expected audiences to enjoy them, and if it is less than outstanding that nevertheless provides a context for the outstanding ones.


I agree completely. Opera is meant to be experienced in the theater, and if young people have access to it they should take every opportunity to attend performances. I did so earlier in life when I could, and I performed as a chorister a couple of times with the Boston opera. Those were unforgettable experiences. Now I'm a musically fussy old fart with refined and demanding tastes living in a non-urban region on a fixed income. My 4000 CDs and I are happily married till death us do part.


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## Sir Redcrosse (Aug 30, 2015)

Because of where I live, I _wish_ I could see Robert Wilson's _The Temptations of St. Anthony_ [don't know who wrote the music] or any of Xenakis's opera-ish works... or for that matter, anything directed by La Fura Dels Baus

I should probably check out the independent theatre downtown, though. I don't think they've done opera yet, but if I recall correctly, they had a few pianists play Satie's Vexations in full.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Steatopygous said:


> Yes, but there's never a sure bet, which is part of the thrill (when expectations are exceeded). I queued up from 5am at Covent Garden in 1981 to hear Pavarotti and Caballe in Masked Ball. Pavarotti had just got in from New York where his father was ill, or something, and the first half was disappointingly pedestrian. But the second had lift-off. Unforgettable.
> 
> *Where I live, there is a top-class fully professional opera, a high-class professional opera, and three or four small part-time companies. *The first is capable of disappointing (as is any company), and the small ones can be amazingly good. They know they have to be different from the big companies, so instead of fourth-rate Bohemes they do interesting rarer projects.
> 
> ...


You are indeed fortunate then. However, for most of us opera means an expensive ticket, an expensive journey and an expensive night in a hotel -[ probably an outlay of about £300. Now all of this outlay can be sabotaged by a disappointing performance. I recently went to see Shakespeare's (not Verdi's) Othello performed by the Royal Shakespeare Company. My wife and I were profoundly disappointed and were thankful we had gone to the cinema broadcast and not made the outlay to see it at Stratford-Upon-avon on this occasion. Now we have had some brilliant theatrical experiences at Stratford but I have noticed our experience in the opera house has been far more variable. The last broadcast I saw from Covent Garden was summed up by a fellow member of the audience (a far more experienced opera goer than me, apparently) as 'the usual Covent Garden crap'. So I am reluctant to outlay large sums of money on a risky venture.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Just to add that some of the best experiences of opera I have had were seeing companies with young singers and fresh voices. I remember one in particular performance of the Magic Flute which was brilliant - all those on stage were so enthusiastic and the whole effect was to see the opera fresh again. Pity the company was closed through lack of funding while the fat cats of Covent Garden continued to prosper at the expense of the public purse!


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

DavidA said:


> You are indeed fortunate then. However, for most of us opera means an expensive ticket, an expensive journey and an expensive night in a hotel -[ probably an outlay of about £300. Now all of this outlay can be sabotaged by a disappointing performance. I recently went to see Shakespeare's (not Verdi's) Othello performed by the Royal Shakespeare Company. My wife and I were profoundly disappointed and were thankful we had gone to the cinema broadcast and not made the outlay to see it at Stratford-Upon-avon on this occasion. Now we have had some brilliant theatrical experiences at Stratford but I have noticed our experience in the opera house has been far more variable. The last broadcast I saw from Covent Garden was summed up by a fellow member of the audience (a far more experienced opera goer than me, apparently) as 'the usual Covent Garden crap'. So I am reluctant to outlay large sums of money on a risky venture.


I am incredibly fortunate. I get to around 50-60 live operas/concerts/recitals a year and, because of my profession, don't have to pay. I'd go to even more if I didn't live an hour out of town, but I recognise that this obstacle pales in comparison with an overnight trip. I do pay to subscribe to the symphony orchestra - about $1000 a year - because I do not believe it is good for the soul to get everything for free. That equates to just two or three operas for you. But I have paid for hundreds, thousands, of concerts over the years.

(Not to mention queuing at 5am as previously mentioned. I want you to know that I have suffered for my art.  )


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

DavidA said:


> Just to add that some of the best experiences of opera I have had were seeing companies with young singers and fresh voices. I remember one in particular performance of the Magic Flute which was brilliant - all those on stage were so enthusiastic and the whole effect was to see the opera fresh again. Pity the company was closed through lack of funding while the fat cats of Covent Garden continued to prosper at the expense of the public purse!


I don't want to comment on public funding for Covent Garden. I believe there should be some state contribution, but how much is controversial, I know.
For the rest, I entirely agree. When I saw Gianni Schicchi earlier this year it was the first time I'd seen it. I've seen a dozen Toscas, from Vienna to Melbourne. Some were marvellous, a couple quite disappointing. But that's another story. The bigger the company, the harder it is to take a risk because a failure can mean financial catastrophe. So Tosca, Boheme, Butterfly and, to a lesser extent, Turandot are on repeat in the big houses the world over. But not Henze or Maxwell Davies or Tippet or Carter (all of whom have done top stuff) or ... well, take your pick.


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