# All-Time Symphony Orchestra



## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

Hello Talk Classical!
I just joined a few minutes ago and am very happy to! I've been looking around for someplace besides the orchestra I play in where I can talk about classical music without getting teased or totally ignored. I also tried registering at Gramophone but everybody there immediately decided they hated me for some reason...

For my first thread, I decided to post this list I made a while back: the All-time Symphony Orchestra, consisting of the best players from the late-19th century to the present day (for some reason, this is what made everybody at Gramophone get so ticked off). You will notice that the string section largely consists of the best soloists rather than the best orchestral players, with the exception of the double bass section. This is because I couldn't seem to find any orchestral players, since everybody on the Internet was talking Perlman, Tartini, Kreisler, etc. But in the winds, I did in fact select orchestral musicians. 

Too bad we could never see this group play together, because a lot of the musicians are dead, dying or just really aging. Besides, the amount of ego would stretch to Pluto and back 50 times. Maybe someone could make a computer simulation of a group like this, but even that wouldn't do justice to how they would really sound. 

Here is the All-Time Symphony Orchestra! Enjoy, and please don't hesitate to make suggestions, I'm always trying to improve it!

Violin 1: Itzhack Perlman, concertmaster, Jascha Heifetz, associate concertmaster, Giueseppe Tartini, Fritz Kreisler, David Oistrakh, Mischa Elman, Yehudi Menuhin, Tomo Milicevic, Pablo de Sarasate

Violin 2: Philippe Quint, Jacques Thibaud, Isaac Stern, Joshua Bell, Hilary Hahn, Arthur Grimaux, Zino Francescatti, Robert McDuffie, Ida Haendel, Georges Enesco

Viola: Yuri Bashmet, Nobuko Imai, Lionel Tertis, William Primrose, Lawrence Power

Cello: Yo-Yo Ma, Pablo Casals, Jacqueline du Pre, Gregor Piatagorsky, Emanuel Fuerman, Pierre Fournier, Mstislav Rostropovich

Double Bass: Gerald Drucker, Eugene Levinson, Oscar Zimmerman, Ludwig Streicher

Flute: Geoffrey Gilbert, Jeffrey Kahner, Michel DeBost, Marcel Moyse

Oboe: John Mack, Alex Klein

Clarinet: Larry Combs, Karl Leister

Bassoon: Bernard Garfield, William Waterhouse, Judith LeClair, Sol Schoenbach

Horn: John Cerminaro, Dale Clevenger, Philip Myers, Dennis Brain

Trumpet: Adolph Herseth, William Vacchiano, Phillip Collins

Trombone: Jay Friedman, Denis Wick, Ian Bousfield, Joseph Alessi

Bass Trombone: Dave Stewart

Tuba: Gene Pokorny, John Fletcher

Timpani: Edward Harrison

Percussion: Howard van Hyning, James Blades, Antonio Buonomo

Now the conductor is another issue. It's extremely hard to say one great conductor is better than another. Nevertheless, here's a few suggestions. Again, don't hesitate to make suggestions yourself: Igor Markevitch, Leonard Bernstein, Andre Previn, Zubin Mehta, Leopold Stokowski, Claudio Abbado, Fritz Reiner, Herbert von Karajan, Sir George Solti

Hope you've enjoyed!


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

There are a few double bass soloists , th emost famous one being probably Gary Karr, who has made a number of recoridngs. The legendary Russian conductor started out a bass virtuoso , and Zubin Mehta 
also played bass before he became a conductor . Giovanni Bottesini was the most famous bass player of the 19th century, and some of his music has been recorded .


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

Don't know exactly ...
London, Berlin and Chicago orchestras have been really great.

I also know that Yo-Yo Ma is very talented with Cello.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

You've got the ratio of strings:everyone else wrong. Nice big bassoon section though.


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## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

If you listen to recordings of the brass musicians I listed you'll see why there's not so many of them compared to the strings. A lot of them are former Chicago Symphony players, so yeah.... 
I can't tell if the whole string section is too big or if the woodwinds are too small, though. I tried to put in the average amount of musicians per instrument.


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## Klavierspieler (Jul 16, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> You've got the ratio of strings:everyone else wrong. Nice big bassoon section though.


He could use a few more violas, though.


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## Jaws (Jun 4, 2011)

*Tertis model*



Klavierspieler said:


> He could use a few more violas, though.


Possibly not if they are all playing Tertis model violas.


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

I like the idea.

Of course, it would be completely impractical - most soloists are poor team players, and most team players aren't good enough to be soloists. Rehearsals would probably degenerate into a bread fight rather soon!


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Gordontrek said:


> If you listen to recordings of the brass musicians I listed you'll see why there's not so many of them compared to the strings. A lot of them are former Chicago Symphony players, so yeah....
> I can't tell if the whole string section is too big or if the woodwinds are too small, though. I tried to put in the average amount of musicians per instrument.


I'm talkin' about the string sections being _too small_


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

All soloists and 1st chairs? Dumb!


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

To play most works in the repertoire, you're talking about fielding a regular orchestra of 

4 flutes (some doubling alto flute and/or piccolo)
4 oboes (some doubling cor anglais)
4 clarinets
2-3 bassoons
one or more extras for the more obscure wind instruments - contrabass bassoons and so on
4 horns
4 trumpets
4 trombones
2-3 tubas/euphoniums etc
piano/other keyboards (eg celeste)
harp
2 sets timpani
absolute minimum 2 percussion
10 violin I
10 violin II
10 viola
8 cello
6-8 double bass

Of course, session players would be drafted in to meet excessive requirements, whether the 8 horns needed for Mahler 3 or the extensive percussion needed for many post 1945 works.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Jeremy Marchant said:


> To play most works in the repertoire, you're talking about fielding a regular orchestra of
> 
> 4 flutes (some doubling alto flute and/or piccolo)
> 4 oboes (some doubling cor anglais)
> ...


I'd say more like a string section of 16/14/12/10/8. Also 6 horns instead of 4 is I think the standard in most orchestras.


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

Gordontrek said:


> Now the conductor is another issue. It's extremely hard to say one great conductor is better than another. Nevertheless, here's a few suggestions. Again, don't hesitate to make suggestions yourself: Igor Markevitch, Leonard Bernstein, Andre Previn, Zubin Mehta, Leopold Stokowski, Claudio Abbado, Fritz Reiner, Herbert von Karajan, Sir George Solti


This is a pitiful selection. It comes down to Mahler, Toscanini or Furtwangler. If you're desperate for names from the last 50 years, you might propose Carlos Kleiber or Celibidache.

Oh, and you need Jack Brymer on clarinet.

GG


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Conductor, ehhhh......JOHN ELIOT GARDINER


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Also it's funny that no one has mentioned Anne-Sophie Mutter in the violin section.


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## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

Hilltroll72 said:


> All soloists and 1st chairs? Dumb!


Not the craziest idea. Putting soloists in an orchestra is kind of a stretch, I do admit. But you can take the National Philharmonic Orchestra for example, which was largely consisting of first-chair players from major London orchestras. So first chairs isn't as "dumb" as it seems....


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## aaroncopland (May 14, 2012)

Ok sorry to be so blunt but WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING????? The trombone section is soooo messed up. It should be JOE ALESSI, TOBY OFT, MICHAEL MULCAHY, AND CHARLES VERNON ON BASS. AND HOW IS ARNOLD JACOBS NOT ON TUBA?????? AND WHY ISN'T RICCARDO MUTI IN THE CONDUCTORS SECTION????


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

aaroncopland said:


> Ok sorry to be so blunt but WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING????? The trombone section is soooo messed up. It should be JOE ALESSI, TOBY OFT, MICHAEL MULCAHY, AND CHARLES VERNON ON BASS. AND HOW IS ARNOLD JACOBS NOT ON TUBA?????? AND WHY ISN'T RICCARDO MUTI IN THE CONDUCTORS SECTION????


Because the conductor's spot was already given to John Eliot Gardiner. :tiphat:


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## Matthewv789 (Apr 13, 2019)

For this kind of concept, the closest in the real world has tended to be the Lucerne Festival Orchestra under Claudio Abaddo.

According to Wikipedia: 


> The core of the ensemble is the Mahler Chamber Orchestra. The LFO features some soloists and orchestral principals from major orchestras in its ranks, including Kolja Blacher, Wolfram Christ, Mirijam Contzen, Diemut Poppen, Natalia Gutman, Jens-Peter Maintz, Jacques Zoon, Reinhold Friedrich, Stefan Dohr, Alessio Allegrini, Mark Templeton, Franz Bartolomey, Alois Posch, Emmanuel Pahud, Albrecht Mayer, Stefan Schweigert, members of the Sabine Meyer Wind Ensemble, the Alban Berg Quartet and Hagen Quartet. The orchestra also includes members of ensembles with whom Abbado had a connection, such as the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra, the London Symphony Orchestra and the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

I laugh at the notion of the likes of *Isaac Stern, Joshua Bell, Hilary Hahn*, and *Arthur Grimaux* being assigned to 2nd violin.

As would they.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

What about Nathan Milstein for violin?

Your conductor short list should definitley include Furtwangler and Klemplerer, more if you go on just hearsay and don't require recordings.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Pretty much an impossible task... so many great players....and for many, their greatness is associated with membership in a particular section, or group...
So, with the winds, it might be better to nominate specific sections, rather than individuals...for me- the great woodwind sections of Chicago, NYPO, Cleveland would be named, with personnel changes over the years - ie-
The NYPO section of the late 49s, early 50s was one of the greatest ever- incredible sound- Wummer, H. Gomberg, S. Bellison/R. McGinnis, W. Polisi...the CSO section was equally amazing- D. Peck, R. Still, C. Brody/L. Combs, LSharrow/W. Elliot....Cleveland under Szell featured an all-time fine section: M. Sharpe, M. Lifschey/J. Mack, R.Marcellus, G. Goslee... 
BTW, I was interested in a couple of your conclusions - Phil Collins, tpt - a classmate and friend of mine from Eastman. Great player, really outstanding...Ed Harrison - timpani - from Chicago?? - I knew Ed (percussionist) from Boston, played many gigs with him...he moved to Chicago when his wife got a violin position with the CSO...good guy, fine player.
A couple of mandatory inclusions in the brass:
Bass trombone: 
Ed Kleinhammer (CSO)
Alan Ostrander(NYPO)

Tuba - in addition to Jacobs - 
Bill Bell (NYPO, NBC)
Roger Bobo (LAPO)


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I can't imagine an orchestra composed mainly of soloists to work at all. Good section leaders maybe (It's usually up to them to make their sections "work.") For example, I can't imagine Kreisler and Haifitz and Elman ans Menuhin playing together and not sounding awful.

(Kousevitsky, by the way, was a bass virtuoso before he turned to conducting.)


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

This whole idea looks like something straight from Otto Böhler's _Schattenbilder_.

Let me suggest:

Violins: Leonid Kogan, Joseph Joachim
Contrabass: Giovanni Bottesini
Trumpet: Maurice Murphy
Harp: Lily Laskine
Keyboard: Bach, Alkan
Podium: Furtwängler


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

For winds and brass, I favor those musicians who had great influence on subsequent players, those who "set the trend", "showed the way"...add to previous- 
-Bassoon
J. Walter Guetter (Stoki/PhilaOrch)
Ben Kohon (NYPO, NBC)
-Oboe
Marcel Tabuteau (PhilaOrch)
Harold Gomberg (NYPO)
Flute, clarinet, hard to say - probably Wm. Kincaid (PhilaOrch) , JP Rampal....for flute....not sure about clarinet. Maybe Bonade, or Bellison (NYPO)
-Trumpet:
Adolph Herseth (Chicago)
Harry Glantz (NBC, NYPO)
Wm. Vacchiano (NYPO)
-Trombone:
Gordon Pulis (NYPO)
Ed Kleinhammer (Chicago)
-Tuba:
Arnold Jacobs (Chicago)
Wm. Bell (NYPO, NBC)


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## david johnson (Jun 25, 2007)

We MUST have Arnold Jacobs, Tabuteau, Kleinhammer, Robert Marcelus ...


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Gordontrek said:


> Hello Talk Classical!
> I just joined a few minutes ago and am very happy to! I've been looking around for someplace besides the orchestra I play in where I can talk about classical music without getting teased or totally ignored....


Welcome to the Forum.
Fresh ears are always welcome.

The only ones who get teased around here are the old "know-it-alls" like me. But we deserve it. Which explains why we don't even get teased that much, since we're rather totally ignored instead. Alas ….

All the best to you that you never become an old "know-it-all". Which, by the way, ain't all that it's cracked up to be. So, in the meantime, enjoy your stay and offer what you will.

I will offer this about your All-Time Symphony listing -- I'm not sure how efficiently that group of musicians would work out playing together. You have quite a few big egos going on in there. I suspect more than several would be vying for the opportunity to be heard above the others. They would probably do loud music better than quiet stuff. Maybe I'm totally off the mark, too, but the sound might be quite a mish mash of cacophony. They might be great with Xenakis or Stockhausen!

Again, welcome to the Forum.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

SONNET CLV said:


> Welcome to the Forum.
> Fresh ears are always welcome.
> 
> The only ones who get teased around here are the old "know-it-alls" like me. But we deserve it. Which explains why we don't even get teased that much, since we're rather totally ignored instead. Alas ….
> ...


You're 7 1/2 years late on this one, bro...


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> You're 7 1/2 years late on this one, bro...


Which proves my point.


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