# Beethoven’s Choral Symphony



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Playing now on my radio. The Scherzo currently. They say a performance isn’t a concert, it’s a civic occasion.

Is this symphony as great as they say? What does it all mean? Please hold forth with your views!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

After fifty-some years of hearing it I no longer know how great it is. In my next incarnation I'll listen again, find out what they say, compare notes, and let you know.

But if we're playing lightning round, I'll say "They're right, it's really great. Even the singing."


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

I have seen comments here that Beethoven's symphonies are too insistent or bombastic. I certainly think the charge could be leveled, but that it misses out on quite a bit of diversity in the works. This video does a good job of situating Beethoven in his historical period, and answers the charge to some degree - Beethoven lived in a time of bombast and striving in Europe.






As far as the 9th goes, it strikes me as Beethoven's attempt to create a synthesis of his prior works (the triumphal throbbing of the 5th, the rapturous beauty of the 6th, the pathos of the slow movements of the 3rd and 7th), with a moral message - all men are brothers. The most complex message? No. But many times the most important messages aren't.

The first movement is his most foreboding pieces of music since the 3rd. The Scherzo of the second movement is one of his most technically brilliant compositions. The adagio of the third movement is one of his most sublimely beautiful compositions, probably rivaled only by the 2nd movement of the 6th. The "ode to joy" theme is so simple a child can play it on a piano within a minute, but it remains one of the most moving pieces of music there is, and then morphs into a triumph worthy of the finale of the 5th, both in the orchestral and the choral parts.

Overall it is a work of the utmost genius and technique. It is kind of exhausting in its scope, and I don't listen to it nearly as much as the 5th, 6th, or 7th. It is not for casual listening. It compels attention and involvement.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

It's full of drama, like most Beethoven, and has a grand finale. If you enjoy it, take meaning in what you get from it! I for one love how proud and joyous it is, the struggle that leads up to the finale is fantastic.

I love Mozart for the opposite reason, no drama, just the enlightenment it seems.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I must have heard it a hundred times or so, voluntary or involuntary. It's not for me. The instrumental movements do not particularly appeal to me, and the choral final does not blow me away, it just blows. Beethoven composed many works that I adore, but not this one, not at all.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Captainnumber36 said:


> It's full of drama, like most Beethoven, and has a grand finale. If you enjoy it, take meaning in what you get from it! I for one love how proud and joyous it is, the struggle that leads up to the finale is fantastic.
> 
> I love Mozart for the opposite reason, no drama, just the enlightenment it seems.


No drama? The operas, Piano Concerto #20, the Requiem etc. You must be early on in your Mozart listening.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

DaveM said:


> No drama? The operas, Piano Concerto #20, the Requiem etc. You must be early on in your Mozart listening.


I won't count Operas in that they must be dramatic by nature. I'll give you the Requiem though! For the most part, Mozart is pretty much living in the light.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Art Rock said:


> the choral final does not blow me away, it just blows.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

_"The alpha and omega is Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, marvelous in the first three movements, very badly set in the last. No one will ever approach the sublimity of the first movement, but it will be an easy task to write as badly for voices as in the last movement. And supported by the authority of Beethoven, they will all shout: "That's the way to do it..."_ -- Giuseppe Verdi, 1878



Captainnumber36 said:


> It's full of drama, like most Beethoven, and has a grand finale. If you enjoy it, take meaning in what you get from it! I for one love how proud and joyous it is, the struggle that leads up to the finale is fantastic.
> 
> I love Mozart for the opposite reason, no drama, just the enlightenment it seems.





Captainnumber36 said:


> I won't count Operas in that they must be dramatic by nature. I'll give you the Requiem though and PC#20! For the most part, Mozart is pretty much living in the light.


Part of the reason why I mentioned Fantasies K394, K608 in threads Beethoven Piano Sonatas. It's what I think the later half of the Hammerklavier Sonata lacks. Beethoven apparently seems to me to have had hard time keeping up with the counterpoint he forgot to add drama in it. 
I'm just joking.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

I once heard the ninth in concert, seamlessly preceded (not even the usual coughing and sneezing pause) by Schoenberg's Survivor from Warsaw. The connection (123 years between these pieces) made perfect sense from both a substantive and musical point of view. It also made it possible to listen to the ninth with fresh ears. It was a transcendental experience to hear the last note of Schonberg become the first of Beethoven. Valery Gergiev conducted his Rotterdam Philharmonic Orchestra.

The kind of memorable, daring musical programming one too rarely sees.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Captainnumber36 said:


> It's full of drama, like most Beethoven, and has a grand finale. If you enjoy it, take meaning in what you get from it! I for one love how proud and joyous it is, the struggle that leads up to the finale is fantastic.
> 
> *I love Mozart for the opposite reason, no drama,* just the enlightenment it seems.


Pardon? Are you listening to Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart or another Mozart?


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_Is this symphony as great as they say? What does it all mean? Please hold forth with your views! _

This was one of the first pieces of classical music I came to know thanks to excerpts in the 1971 film A Clockwork Orange where it was the protagonist's theme song. I've had a number of recordings and seen it performed in concert a few times; it has never struck me the way it has other people.

I agree, however, it is a landmark in classical music for its construction, content and place in history. It was the first "choral" symphony -- a symphony with a chorus stuck on the end later mimicked by Mahler and Mendelssohn among others -- and it is a wonderfully put together piece.

The one thing I don't like about it musically is it, like all Beethoven's choral work, requires superhuman effort from the singers. At the end of his life Beethoven tested the boundaries of everything -- instruments, the piano, and the human voice. I've never sung the 9th and know people that have; it requires enormous leaps in octaves and halves and pressures singers sometimes beyond their abilities.

It is also a difficult piece for a conductor to keep together. I once owned a Naxos recording where, in the finale, the orchestra and chorus were about a half-beat apart for about 30 measures. I've seen this in concert performance too.

Philosophically its message of a unified mankind is the summation of Beethoven's joy at the French and American revolutions and their promises of liberty and equality. Along with his Missa Solemnis and final string quartets and piano sonatas, it is the pinnacle of Beethoven's artistic life.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

KenOC said:


> Playing now on my radio. The Scherzo currently. They say a performance isn't a concert, it's a civic occasion.
> 
> Is this symphony as great as they say? What does it all mean? Please hold forth with your views!


It is worth noting that the rhythmic motif of the fifth makes a conspicuous return here - it's so striking that I cannot help but draw a parallel.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_I love Mozart for the opposite reason, no drama, just the enlightenment it seems._

I think you must be listening to a Mozart I don't know. There's plenty of drama in Don Giovanni, The Marriage of Figaro, the Requiem, Mass in C minor, Piano concertos 20 & 24, Symphonies 29, 32, 34-38 and 41, Idomeneo, Thomas King of Egypt and his Masonic music, just to cite a few.

Try this on for size:


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

KenOC said:


> Playing now on my radio. The Scherzo currently. They say a performance isn't a concert, it's a civic occasion.
> 
> What does it all mean? Please hold forth with your views!


What does it mean? Isn't it a search for D major from D minor?

Of course, I hear a lot more in it than that, but I'll spare you.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

The opening notes say it all: Tonic, fifth, tonic. In other terms, "the big note," or "God" in his guise as pure vibration of the universe. Beethoven was sensing this, he felt in sympathetic vibration with all Men, and all creation.

I'm surprised that any anti-deist, anti-religionist rational thinker would even be able to tolerate this music, for that reason.

*Oh, well, too bad: It's art!*


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> The opening notes say it all: Tonic, fifth, tonic. In other terms, "the big note," or "God" in his guise as pure vibration of the universe. Beethoven was sensing this, he felt in sympathetic vibration with all Men, and all creation.
> 
> I'm surprised that any anti-deist, anti-religionist rational thinker would even be able to tolerate this music, for that reason.


I am not surprised. It's great music - that's all one needs to know.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> The opening notes say it all: Tonic, fifth, tonic. In other terms, "the big note," or "God" in his guise as pure vibration of the universe. Beethoven was sensing this, he felt in sympathetic vibration with all Men, and all creation.
> 
> I'm surprised that any anti-deist, anti-religionist rational thinker would even be able to tolerate this music, for that reason.
> 
> *Oh, well, too bad: It's art!*


Linking God with the tonic and the fifth is baffling.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

janxharris said:


> Linking God with the tonic and the fifth is baffling.


Don't worry. Now we see through a glass darkly, but stick around TC and all will become clear.


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

I love the 2nd and 3rd movements, like very much the 1st movement, and like portions of the 4th movement (which, of course, has numerous problems...or at a least a few!).

Beethoven greatest symphony is #7.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Is this symphony as great as they say? What does it all mean? Please hold forth with your views!


Ok. I'll "hold forth" with my views. But … I like it, times nine to the ninth power.


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

I think the ninth is a masterpiece, but I rarely listen to it. It's got nearly everything wrapped into one piece. But I'm so familiar with it that when I do listen to it, there's nothing new for me and I start doing other things and not listening. 

I performed it six years ago. It was quite thrilling to be in the middle of the orchestra as all this music is going on around me. Knowing our orchestra was playing it, we attracted many other local amateur musicians who had always wanted to perform this piece. Over 100 of us all together. It was a very challenging piece for us, ten weeks of rehearsals. The performance went quite well. Sure there were problems, mostly hanging all of us together.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ArsMusica said:


> I love the 2nd and 3rd movements, like very much the 1st movement, and like portions of *the 4th movement (which, of course, has numerous problems...or at a least a few!)*.


I've never been able to find any problems with the 4th movement of the 9th. It's basically a gigantic theme and variations, a form at which Beethoven was perhaps the greatest practitioner along with Bach. The theme is both simple and noble, all the variations are fine, they're wonderfully contrasting, ranging from the solemn to the heroic to the light-hearted, they're effectively paced, and they end brilliantly. What more does anyone want? Elegance, suavity and civility? Try Mozart.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

janxharris said:


> Linking God with the tonic and the fifth is baffling.


"Everything is a note, a single note. Everything. Atoms are really vibrations, you know...which are extensions of THE BIG NOTE." - from _Lumpy Gravy_ by Frank Zappa


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Don't worry. Now we see through a glass darkly, but stick around TC and all will become clear.


No, that's when it gets turned into a tritone by trolls. But please, all participants, "hold forth" with your views, if you have anything worth sharing.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Have over 4 dozen recordings of Beethoven's Ninth. Burned out on it. Don't listen that much anymore, but did buy another set recently because it featured a couple of great singers I am familiar with:

Sir Roger Norrington, SWR Radio-Sinfonieorchester Stuttgart, Franz-Josef Selig, *Jonas Kaufmann* (Performer), Iris Vermillion, *Camilla Nylund *


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> I've never been able to find any problems with the 4th movement of the 9th. It's basically a gigantic theme and variations, a form at which Beethoven was perhaps the greatest practitioner along with Bach...


cough...Brahms...cough...


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> "Everything is a note, a single note. Everything. Atoms are really vibrations, you know...which are extensions of THE BIG NOTE." - from _Lumpy Gravy_ by Frank Zappa


Ok, but nothing here that proves your assertion....(not to say that such notes _can't _express as much).


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> The opening notes say it all: Tonic, fifth, tonic. In other terms, "the big note," or "God" in his guise as pure vibration of the universe. *Beethoven was sensing thi*s, he felt in sympathetic vibration with all Men, and all creation.
> 
> I'm surprised that any anti-deist, anti-religionist rational thinker would even be able to tolerate this music, for that reason.
> 
> *Oh, well, too bad: It's art!*


Do we really know what Beethoven was sensing? Hearingwise, nothing.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

janxharris said:


> Ok, but nothing here that proves your assertion....(not to say that such notes _can't _express as much).


Oh, I thought we were discussing Beethoven' Ninth Symphony (art), not science. Thanks for the concession, though.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Fritz Kobus said:


> Do we really know what Beethoven was sensing? Hearingwise, nothing.


Remember, there is text to be considered also.

Yes, of course, I can only infer, and give my opinion.

But, unfortunately for you, I have source material which backs-up my position:

Robert Henri, in the book "The Art Spirit," says that there are two equally valid approaches to art criticim: the formal approach, whichs deals objectively with only the formal directly perceivable aspects of the art;

and the subjective approach, which deals with more intangible aspects, and asks questions such as: "Was the artist sincere?" "What was the artist feeling, by inference?"

It seems that in our "brave new rational world" that most of the listeners here have forgotten all about the subjective approach to art, in favor of an often-times exaggerated rational, objective approach, which leaves me rather cold.

Frankly, it seems rather dubious to not view The Ninth for what it really is, as an expression of Beethoven's love for Mankind, and an overt statement of religious feelings. After all, the "Ode to Joy" is quite clear in its sentiment, and Beethoven chose this text because he obviously empathized with it.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> cough...Brahms...cough...


Brahms comes in third.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

KenOC said:


> cough...Brahms...cough...


Did you feel any pain when I did that? Okay, you can put your pants back on.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> Oh, I thought we were discussing Beethoven' Ninth Symphony (art), not science. Thanks for the concession, though.


Well I was hoping to be furnished with clear reasoning for your assertion - that's all.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

janxharris said:


> Well I was hoping to be furnished with clear reasoning for your assertion - that's all.


Okay, but these are my views, and you may not think they are "clear explanations." plus, I'd hate to have to post an explanation every time I post an opinion.

This is the post you wanted me to explain: 



> The opening notes say it all: Tonic, fifth, tonic. In other terms, "the big note," or "God" in his guise as pure vibration of the universe. Beethoven was sensing this, he felt in sympathetic vibration with all Men, and all creation.





> I'm surprised that any anti-deist, anti-religionist rational thinker would even be able to tolerate this music, for that reason.
> 
> *Oh, well, too bad: It's art!*


When we say 'religious' music, it may fit that description for a number of reasons which do not concern the music itself, or the actual structure of the sounds; it may be 'religious' because it was used in church rituals, or based on sacred text, or about a religious subject, but none of these has to do with the actual structure of the music itself.

I am saying that the term 'religious' in 'religious music' (which is a misleading term in my opinion) is a quality which I define in general terms as 'spiritual' in nature. The music can produce, under the right conditions, a spiritual awareness or feeling, or effect, which may or may not be associated with a particular religion, or idea of religion. 

You must first accept the given that "religious" is a misnomer in the sense that 'spiritual' music need not necessarily be connected to an established religion or institution. If we can accept that broadening and generalization of the term 'religious' music, then we can move ahead to the meat of the discussion.

I contend that music which is harmonically static, such as a drone, or one note and its partials, is inherently 'spiritual' because of its universal propensity to affect us as humans. This 'spirituality' is the note, or drone itself, so it is a structurally inseparable quality of the sound.

As a result, all things or sound events which follow are secondary, and inessential, as they are derived from this one sound. This sound, it could be said, is "God." This is a possible interpretation of the words "In the beginning was the word, and the word was God."

In other words, the unchanging note, or drone, is the center of being, which is sacred and holy. This center of being is impervious to the passage of time; it is stillness, it is being, it is no-mind. This is OM.

All change which follows, which is defined by change in time, is illusion. Being does not travel; things around it come and go, but it remains.

Thus, the early Gregorian chant was inherently religious music; its drone-like qualities attracted 20th century audiences with the smash hit "Chant," and revealed that people are in search of a stillness and peace which only the uncluttered effects of such harmonically centered drone-like music can bring. All other music which is 'busy' is music of the 'ego,' and while it has its purpose, ultimately it is a distraction, or artifice, or merely a metaphor for the spiritual. 

This is the basis of Indian raga, which is spiritual music designed to enhance one's spiritual awareness. African music is based on the drone of a fundamental tone and its harmonics, a 'drone' which is manipulated with mouth-bows to bring out different harmonic resonances. This led to blues, such as the droney songs of Skip James. The blues is thus a sacred music, and these bluesmen were our avatars of this spirituality, holy men, traveling saints. Bob Dylan, Ry Cooder, and Alan Wilson understood this well. For the blues connection, refer to Canned Heat's "on the Road Again' by the late great Alan Wilson

'The drone' is universal. All folk and ethnic musics exhibit elements of it, as it is my contention that all people, no matter how 'primitive,' are inherently spiritual from their beginning. Of course, many are distracted away from the path.

The drone is the manifestation of being, not just a reference or metaphor for the sacred. The spirit is sound, and the sound is sacred.

No, I'm saying that 'spirituality' is primary and universal, and that religion is a tool which is ideally supposed to enhance this state, and draw us into it further. This is like 'music' and music theory; theory comes after the fact.

In terms of pure sound, a fundamental and its harmonics are the primary substance or sound that all music derives from, including harmonic progression, which is an elaboration of the harmonic model stretched out over time.

In this way, 'the drone' is primary and universal, and can be directly correlated to spirituality, not just conceptually, but in a more basic way, as if it is hard-wired into humanity. Thus it will reappear in many guises. All music which proceeds from this elaborates on this primal state of drone in one way or another.

I'm making an almost direct correlation between the drone and Man's awareness of the sacred.

"Monotony" or "boredom" as you call it is the thinking part of the mind shutting down, and making way for "being" or primary awareness. It's like an empty room, which can be seen as boring or as refreshingly uncluttered.

Of course I agree that "sound events which follow" matter, and should be manifest in all their diversity.

Yes, music which is not droney or static can be spiritual and can suggest things which are permanent and transcendent; but these are still elaborations or expansions of the source in some way. 
I'm not trying to do away with that, or invalidate it, or say it is inferior. It simply occupies a different place in the order of things, and at the center is the drone.

I'm saying that the most simplified aspect of sound is the one note, and its partials. I quaintly call this the drone.

This is reflected in Man's spiritual awareness; again, the most basic kind of awareness and being is the state of stillness, when it is simplified and uncluttered by the tickertape of thought.

I will not argue with you if you say that "religious music" means music which was written and used in a specific religion, or in specific rituals or settings. A Baptist hymn is an example of religious music, or a mass.

But the term 'religious' is limiting, in that it refers to religion, and that term means specific things to different people.

With the term "spiritual" (and keeping in mind that spirituality is universal to all, and that religion came after, and acts as a limiter and is specific), we can identify and explore the universal aspects of music which are not only common to all men, but can produce or enhance a sense of spiritual awareness which is universal and inclusive, which centers us and gets us to that common, universal state of being.

I say this not to invalidate any form of religious music, but to get people to recognize that our sense of spirituality is nearly synonymous, in sound terms, with 'the drone' or the single note.

From this beginning, all awareness and music proceeds.

This idea is not mine alone; it works in practice as well. The overwhelming success of the CD "Chant" is evidence that people were craving a sense of peace, and a centering experience. The companion book which came out with this discusses these ideas. Call it 'new age' if you wish, but this idea has real validity, as Indian raga demonstrates, and can't credibly be written off simply as a fad or trend.

... some music is religious, and creates a visceral spiritual effect as well, and does this by other methods, perhaps using two chords and 100 singers, as in Handel's Messiah chorus as they sing "Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah," which is relatively close to being simple, and uses the force of voices and their implication as a large mass of people, and repetition, to create an effect on the listener.

I'm just saying that the most simplified, elegant, uncluttered way of expressing this sense is via the drone.

By the way, a 'pedal point' is a sustained note under two chord, as in the above "Messiah" section, so in a way, Handel was using a drone to convey the message.

...the criticism that 'any music can be regarded as spritual' is too subjective. I want objective, formal criteria, and formal structures, if possible. The drone is such a structure. Although it could be used in secular music, that's after the fact. I identify the drone as a Jungian archetype in music; it is a primal, prototypical form which is universal in its meaning and effect, in a basic sense.

But perhaps in the end, you are correct: "religious" music ,may be just that: music intended for religious use. That's rather boring, though, as it says nothing about the effectiveness of the music, or its universal, if any, qualities. By this definition, Kate Smith singing "God Bless America" is in the same category as Bach's B Minor Mass. That tells us nothing about the nature or even the intent of the music, or its possible effectiveness on people.

...The more I think about it, and see the various reactions to this thread, the more I become convinced that the obstacle for many here is that I'm really not talking about 'religious' or 'spiritual' music per se, but rather what common and universal elements of human psychology and physiology are triggered by certain kinds of sounds, namely drones and repetitions, and how these sounds can affect us and lead us closer to being 'in tune' and resonating sympathetically with certain kinds of sounds and music.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Still unique.
Still special.
A live performance is still an "event."


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

It took some time and a lot of performances for me to come around to the 9th, but now, I love it. It needs great singers, especially the male soloist who begins the second part of the fourth movement. It also helps to recognize the shape of the piece and how the singers and orchestra echo and support each other musically.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> Frankly, it seems rather dubious to not view The Ninth for what it really is, as an expression of Beethoven's love for Mankind, and an overt statement of religious feelings.


It's really a musical work of art, but you can feel free to attach any other associations you like.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Here are Berlioz’s thoughts on the Choral:
----------------------------------------------
One day I was walking out of the Conservatoire with three or four dilettanti after a performance of the Choral symphony.

– How do you find this work? one of them asked me.

– Immense! magnificent! overwhelming!

– That is strange, I was bored stiff. And what about you? he added, turning to an Italian…

– Well, I find this unintelligible, or rather intolerable, there is no melody… But here are some papers talking about it, and let us see what they say:

– Beethoven’s Choral symphony is the pinnacle of modern music; art has yet to produce anything comparable for the nobility of its style, the grandeur of the design and the finish of the details.

(Another paper) – Beethoven’s Choral symphony is a monstrosity.

(Another paper) – This work is not completely barren of ideas, but they are poorly presented and the sum total is incoherent and devoid of charm.

(Another paper) – Beethoven’s Choral symphony has some wonderful passages, but the composer was obviously short of inspiration. As his exhausted imagination let him down he had to devote his energies, sometimes to good effect, to making up through craftsmanship what he was lacking in inspiration. The few themes found in the work are superbly treated and set out in a perfectly clear and logical sequence. In short, it is a very interesting work by a tired genius.

Where is the truth, and where is the error? Everywhere and nowhere. Everybody is right. What to someone seems beautiful is not so for someone else, simply because one person was moved and the other remained indifferent, and the former experienced profound delight while the latter acute boredom. What can be done about this?… nothing… but it is dreadful; I would rather be mad and believe in absolute beauty.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Schiller's poem certainly contains words expressing a love for mankind. We can safely assume that Beethoven sets them because he agrees with them substantially. Whether either Schiller or Beethoven actually loved "mankind' that extravagantly, morning, night, and on days other than Christmas, is immaterial; they were artists and art isn't autobiography.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

You don't even have to ask me. Safe to say I rather like it. Now what was the question?


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

KenOC said:


> Is this symphony as great as they say?


No, it's much, much better than what "they" say! At least in my opinion. Beethoven's Ninth strikes me like a thunderbolt - from it's shocking, fiery and dramatic first movement, through it's lively and complex scherzo and it's sublime and moving adagio, to it's glorius, magnificent and titanic finale. To my ears, everything about the choral symphony is top notch: solid counterpoint, sophisticated dynamics, amazing rhythms, remarkable themes, colourful orchestration, daring harmonies, beautiful dissonances, well-crafted form and groundbreaking new ideas organically linked to almost unparalleled expressiveness and musicality (in my opinion). The Ninth for me seems to be the zenith of symphonic writting and a shinning example of the marvels that the human mind is able to create. Is it needed for me to say how astoundingly impressive I think it was for Beethoven to create such a masterpiece while being stone deaf?

"Too many adjectives in a single paragraph" some may think, but I love this symphony this much.



KenOC said:


> What does it all mean?


Who knows? I think that only Beethoven himself could have given a satisfactory and complete answer to this question. To me, the poem of Schiller seems like a call to all humanity to unite for joy and, obliquely, freedom, and Beethoven may have had such a connection with this vital message that he may have consciously wanted to give us his best to set it to music. I could say more than that, but it would be nothing more than just speculation.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

The Choral symphony according to Hector Berlioz:

"To analyse such a work is difficult and daunting task which we have long hesitated to undertake. The excuse for such a foolhardy venture can only lie in our persistent efforts to see the work through the composer's eyes, to penetrate its intimate meaning, to experience its impact, and to study the impressions it has made so far on a few who are gifted with exceptional sensitivity, as well as on the general public. Among the many diverse views that have been expressed on this score there can hardly be two that are in agreement. Some critics regard it as a monstrous insanity; others can only see in it the fading glimmers of a dying genius; more cautiously a few declare they find it at the moment completely unintelligible, but do not despair of achieving at least an approximate understanding of it later; the majority of artistically minded people regard it as an extraordinary conception, though some of its parts nevertheless remain unexplained or without apparent purpose. A small number of musicians who are temperamentally inclined to examine carefully anything that might enlarge the realm of art, and who have thought deeply about the general layout of the Choral symphony after studying the score and listening to it attentively on several occasions, assert that this work seems to them the most magnificent expression of Beethoven's genius: we believe we have said at some earlier point that this is the opinion we share.

Without enquiring what purely personal ideas the composer might have wanted to express in this vast musical poem - a subject wide open to individual conjecture - let us see whether the novelty of the form is not justified in this case by an intention that is quite independent of any philosophical or religious thought, which might seem equally reasonable and beautiful to anyone, be he a fervent Christian, a pantheist or an atheist, in short by an intention of a purely musical and poetic kind.

Beethoven had already written eight symphonies before this one. To progress beyond the point he had already reached solely with the resources of orchestral instruments, what further means were available? The answer is the addition of voices to instruments. But in order to observe the law of crescendo, and enhance in the work itself the power of the additional resource he wanted to provide to the orchestra, it was surely necessary to allow the instruments to figure on their own in the first section of the musical canvas he intended to display… Granted this premise, it is easy to see that he must have been led to search for a mixed musical genre to serve as link between the two major articulations of the symphony. The instrumental recitative was the bridge he had the audacity to throw between the chorus and the orchestra, over which the instruments crossed to go and join the voices. The transition once established the composer must have wanted to announce and motivate the fusion that was about to take place. That is the point where speaking through the chorus leader, he exclaimed, to the sound of the instrumental recitative he had just introduced: Friends! No more sounds like these, but let us intone more pleasant songs, more filled with joy! That is, so to speak, the treaty of alliance concluded between chorus and orchestra; the same theme of the recitative, used by both orchestra and chorus, seems to constitute the oath formula. Thereafter it was up to the composer to select the text for his choral composition: for this Beethoven turned to Schiller and took over the Ode to Joy. He coloured it with countless nuances which poetry on its own could never have conveyed, and it progresses to the end acquiring ever more splendour, grandeur and brilliance.

Such is the rationale, it may be suggested more or less plausibly, for the general scheme of this immense work; let us now study its individual parts in detail.

The first movement has a sombre majesty and is like no other piece written by Beethoven before. The harmony is at times excessively daring: the most original patterns, the most expressive gestures crowd in and criss-cross in every direction, but without causing any obscurity or congestion. On the contrary the result has perfect clarity, and the numerous orchestral voices that plead or threaten, each in its own way and its own special style, seem to form a single voice, such is the emotional charge that drives them.

This allegro maestoso, written in D minor, begins nevertheless on the chord of A without the third, in other words on the notes A and E sustained as a fifth, and played as an arpeggio above and below by the first violins, violas and double-basses. The listener is therefore not sure whether he is hearing the chord of A minor, or of A major, or that of the dominant of D. This prolonged tonal ambiguity gives great power and character to the entry of the full orchestra on the chord of D minor. At the end of the movement there are moments that move the soul to its depths. It would be hard to hear anything more profoundly tragic than the song of the wind instruments beneath which a chromatic phrase played tremolo by the strings swells and rises gradually, like the roar of the sea before an approaching storm. This is a passage of magnificent inspiration.

On several occasions in this work we will be drawing attention to clusters of notes which cannot possibly be described as chords, and we will be forced to admit that the reason for these anomalies escapes us completely. For example on page 17 of the wonderful movement we have been describing there is a melodic passage for clarinets and bassoons, which is accompanied as follows in the key of C minor: the bass plays first an F sharp supporting a diminished seventh, then an A flat supporting a third, fourth and augmented sixth, and finally G over which flutes and oboes play the notes E flat, G, C which gives a six-four chord. This would be an excellent resolution of the previous chord if the second violins and violas did not add to the harmony the two notes F natural and A flat which disfigure it and cause a most unpleasant confusion which fortunately is of short duration. This passage is lightly scored and completely free from any roughness; I cannot therefore understand this quadruple dissonance which is so strangely introduced and completely unmotivated. One might suppose there is an engraving error, but a careful inspection of these two bars and those that precede dispels all doubts and one remains convinced that this is really what the composer intended.

The scherzo vivace which follows contains nothing of the same kind. Admittedly there are a number of pedal notes on the tonic in the upper and middle voices which are sustained through the dominant chord. But I have already stated my position on these pedal notes that are foreign to the harmony, and this new example is not needed to demonstrate the excellent use they can be put to when they arise naturally from the musical logic. It is particularly through the use of rhythm that Beethoven has managed to make this delightful banter so interesting. The theme with its fugal response four bars later is full of vitality, and sparkles with wit when the response then comes a bar earlier and follows a ternary instead of the initial binary rhythm.

The central part of the scherzo is taken up with a presto in duple time full of rustic joy. The theme is deployed over an intermediary pedal note which is either the tonic or the dominant, accompanied by a counter-subject which harmonises equally well with either of the held notes, the dominant and the tonic. The melody is finally brought back by a phrase of delightful freshness in the oboe; after staying poised for a moment over the dominant major chord of D it finally blossoms in the key of F natural in a way that is as graceful as it is unexpected. This is another echo of the gentle impressions that Beethoven loved so much, impressions that are aroused by the sight of a radiant and peaceful landscape, pure air and the first rays of dawn in spring.

In the adagio cantabile the principle of unity is so little observed that one might think of it as two separate movements rather than one. The first melody in B flat in quadruple time is followed by a completely different melody in D major in triple time. The first theme, slightly altered and varied by the first violins, appears for the second time in the original key and leads to the return of the melody in triple time, unchanged and without embellishments but in the key of G major. After this the first theme finally establishes itself and no longer allows the rival theme to compete for the listener's attention. Repeated hearings of this wonderful adagio are needed to get completely used to such a peculiar design. As for the beauty of all these melodies, the infinite grace of the ornaments which decorate them, the feelings of sad tenderness, passionate despair and religious reverie they express, if only my words could give even an approximate idea of them, then music would have found in the written word a rival which even the greatest of poets will never be able to oppose to it. It is an immense movement, and once the listener has succumbed to its powerful charm, the only answer to the criticism that the composer has violated here the law of unity has to be: so much the worse for the law!

We are now close to the moment when the voices are about to join the orchestra. Cellos and double-basses intone the recitative we mentioned above, after a passage for the wind instruments as harsh and violent as a cry of anger. The chord of the major sixth, F, A and D, with which this presto begins, is altered by an appogiatura on B flat, played simultaneously by flutes, oboes and clarinets; the sixth of the key of D minor grinds dreadfully against the dominant and produces an excessively harsh effect. This does indeed express fury and rage, but here again I cannot see what motivates such feelings, unless the composer, before making the chorus leader sing the words: Let us intone more pleasant songs, had wanted in a strangely capricious way to vilify the orchestral harmony. Yet he seems to regret it, since in between each phrase of the recitative of the basses, he repeats, like so many memories that are dear to his heart, fragments of the three preceding movements. What is more, after this first recitative, he puts in the orchestra, in the midst of exquisitely chosen chords, the beautiful theme which is about to be sung by all the voices on Schiller's ode. This theme, gentle and calm in character, becomes increasingly animated and brilliant as it moves from the basses which play it first to the violins and the wind instruments. After a sudden interruption, the whole orchestra plays again the furious ritornello mentioned above which now introduces the vocal recitative.

The first chord is again built on an F which is supposed to carry the third and the sixth and does indeed do so, but this time the composer not content with the appogiatura of B flat adds those of G, E and C sharp, with the result that ALL THE NOTES OF THE MINOR DIATONIC SCALE are played at once and produce the hideous assembly of notes: F, A, C sharp, E, G, B flat, D.

Forty years ago, the French composer Martin, known as Martini, wanted to produce in his opera Sapho a similar howl for the orchestra, and did so by using at once all the diatonic, chromatic and enharmonic intervals of the scale at the moment when Phaon's mistress hurls herself into the sea - but he did not ask himself whether his attempt was appropriate and whether it enhanced or assaulted the dignity of art, though admittedly there could be no mistaking his intentions. But in this case my efforts at discovering Beethoven's purpose are completely in vain. I can see a formal intention, a deliberate and calculated attempt to produce a double discordance, both at the point which precede the appearance of the recitative, instrumental at first and later vocal. I have searched hard for the reason for this idea, and I have to admit that it is unknown to me.

The chorus leader, after singing his recitative on words by Beethoven himself, as we have mentioned, introduces on his own the theme of the Ode to Joy, with a light accompaniment of two wind instruments and the strings playing pizzicato. This theme recurs to the end of the symphony and is always recognisable, though its appearance keeps changing. A study of these diverse transformations is all the more absorbing as each of them brings out a new and distinctive nuance in the expression of a single feeling, that of joy. At first this joy is full of gentleness and peace; it becomes somewhat livelier when the voice of women is heard. The beat changes; the theme, sung initially in quadruple time, returns in 6/8 time in syncopated style and now takes on a more robust and agile character that has a martial quality. This is the song of a departing hero who is confident of victory; you can almost imagine his shining armour and hear the rhythmic tread of his step. A fugal theme in which the original melody can be recognised, serves for a while as subject for a lively orchestral development, which recalls the bustling activity of a crowd full of ardour… But the chorus soon re-enters and sings energetically the joyful hymn in its original simplicity, supported by chords of the wind instruments which shadow the melody, and criss-crossed by a diatonic passage played by the whole mass of strings in unison and octaves. The andante maestoso which follows is a kind of chorale intoned first by the tenors and basses of the chorus, in unison with a trombone, the cellos and double-basses. Joy here assumes a religious dimension and becomes solemn and immense. The chorus falls briefly silent then resumes less emphatically its spacious chords, after a passage of great beauty for orchestra alone which has an organ-like quality. The imitation of the majestic instrument of Christian churches is produced by flutes in the lower register, clarinets in the chalumeau register, the lower notes of the bassoons, the violas divided into two parts, upper and lower, and the cellos playing on their open strings G and D, or the low C (open string) and the C in the middle range, always in double-stopping. This piece starts in G, moves to C, then to F, and ends on a pause on the dominant seventh of D. There follows a great allegro in 6/4 where from the start are combined the beginning of the first theme, already used frequently with such variety, and the chorale of the preceding andante. The contrast between these two ideas is made even more striking by a fast variation of the joyful theme, on top of the long notes of the chorale, played not only by the first violins but also by the double-basses. Now it is impossible for double-basses to perform a succession of notes at that speed, and once again it is hard to understand how a composer as familiar as Beethoven with the art of orchestration could have committed such a lapse in writing a passage like this for this unwieldy instrument. There is less fire and grandeur, and greater lightness in the style of the following piece: its keynote is that of innocent joy, expressed first by four solo voices and then given greater warmth through the addition of the chorus. Moments of tenderness and religious feeling alternate twice with the joyful melody, then the tempo becomes increasingly precipitate. The whole orchestra bursts out, the percussion instruments - timpani, cymbals, triangle, bass drum - strike emphatically the strong beats of the bar. Joy resumes her sway, a popular and tumultuous joy which might look like an orgy if at the end the voices did not pause once more on a solemn rhythm to send, in an ecstatic cry, their final greeting of love and respect for religious joy. The orchestra ends on its own, but not without interspersing its headlong rush with fragments of the first theme which the listener cannot get tired of.

A translation as accurate as possible of the German poem set by Beethoven will convey to the reader the stimulus for this profusion of musical combinations, masterly supports of unceasing inspiration and obedient tools of a powerful and tireless genius*.

« Joy! Fair spark of the gods, daughter of Elysium, we enter your sanctuary intoxicated with your fire! Your magic power unites again those whom earthly customs have forcibly separated. All men will be brothers again under your gentle wing.

« Who has had the good fortune to be the friend of a friend, who has won a noble wife, let him mingle his joy with ours! Yes, any who can call even one soul on earth his own. But who cannot, let him steal away in tears from this gathering.

« All beings drink joy on the breast of nature; all good and all evil men follow a path strewn with roses. She gave us kisses and vintage, a friend who is true unto death. The worm receives the joy of life and the cherub stands before God!

« Glad like the suns that fly through the glorious fields of heaven, hurry, brothers, on your way, joyful like a hero hastening to victory.

« Millions, be embraced! This kiss to the whole world! Brothers, above the starry heaven, a dear father must have his dwelling.

« You fall prostrate, o you millions? World, do you sense the creator? Seek him above the starry heaven! He must dwell over the stars!

« Joy! Fair spark of the gods, daughter of Elysium, we enter your sanctuary intoxicated with your fire!

« Daughter of Elysium, joy, fair spark of the gods!! »

Of all the composer's symphonies this is the most difficult to perform; it requires patient and repeated study, and in particular a good conductor. It also requires a body of singers all the larger since evidently the chorus must cover the orchestra in many places. In addition, the way the music is written for the words and the excessive height of some of the choral parts make voice production very difficult and reduce considerably the volume and power of the sound.

………………………………………………….
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Be that as it may, when Beethoven had finished his work and could contemplate the majestic dimensions of the monument he had just built, he must have said to himself: «Death may come now, but my task is accomplished.»"

_Source (has an analysis by Berlioz of all Beethoven symphonies): *here*._


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

KenOC said:


> Here are Berlioz's thoughts on the Choral:
> ----------------------------------------------
> One day I was walking out of the Conservatoire with three or four dilettanti after a performance of the Choral symphony.
> 
> ...


We had the same idea of quoting Berlioz, almost at the same time. Now that's what I call a fine coincidence.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

I consider Beethoven’s Ninth as a secular work rather than a religious one. If it’s religious then it excludes the nonbelievers who are not necessarily without their own virtues. Beethoven doesn’t have to completely love humanity to imagine that there are social improvements, greater brotherhood, and understanding. He’s holding up an ideal, and an ideal is not the reality but the hope. Without some ideal to shoot for of what’s possible, what’s left? The cynicism and complaints of the material realists with their dim view of it humanity as a whole but never look at the glaring shortcomings of their own behavior? At least there’s something inspirational about an ideal and a reminder that some of humanity strive to get along with each other as part of the whole of the species and this is something that exists as a potential in others. The most interesting thing that Berlioz said in his review of the Ninth is that it suggests as far as his own view is concerned that he considers the symphony in the sense of it having “absolute beauty”, absolute reality, beyond all opinions that vary from the dull and the ridiculous to the sublime. He hears the symphony as being beyond all of that claptrap of opinion and being as something of beauty in and of itself, and I rather like that. The Ode to Joy has been performed all over the world including by 10,000 people at one time in Japan.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> Okay, but these are my views, and you may not think they are "clear explanations." plus, I'd hate to have to post an explanation every time I post an opinion.
> 
> This is the post you wanted me to explain:
> 
> ...




An interesting post - your knowledge is admirable. I think my only issue was your seeming objective assertion that such a drone equates to God. Certainly it may do.

By the way - I didn't assert that " 'religious' music, may be just that: music intended for religious use."


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Larkenfield said:


> I consider Beethoven's Ninth as a secular work rather than a religious one.


After reading this translation posted by Allerius via Berlioz, I'm inclined to shift my position more towards the secular.

« Joy! Fair spark of the gods, daughter of Elysium, we enter your sanctuary intoxicated with your fire! Your magic power unites again those whom earthly customs have forcibly separated. All men will be brothers again under your gentle wing.

« Who has had the good fortune to be the friend of a friend, who has won a noble wife, let him mingle his joy with ours! Yes, any who can call even one soul on earth his own. But who cannot, let him steal away in tears from this gathering.

« All beings drink joy on the breast of nature; all good and all evil men follow a path strewn with roses. She gave us kisses and vintage, a friend who is true unto death. The worm receives the joy of life and the cherub stands before *God!*

« Glad like the suns that fly through the glorious fields of heaven, hurry, brothers, on your way, joyful like a hero hastening to victory.

« Millions, be embraced! This kiss to the whole world! Brothers, above the starry heaven, *a dear father* must have his dwelling.

« You fall prostrate, o you millions? World, do you sense the creator? Seek him above the starry heaven! He must dwell over the stars!

« Joy! Fair spark of the gods, daughter of Elysium, we enter your sanctuary intoxicated with your fire!

« Daughter of Elysium, joy, fair spark of the gods!! »

Translation vary in small details, but the two bolded phrases seem to hint at a Christian concept, while the rest of it seems more Greek and secular. Interestingly, the song's (assumed) Christian context was one of the main reasons for Nichiren Shōshū Buddhism to excommunicate the Soka Gakkai organization for their use of the hymn at their meetings.

The last stanza seem to have the most overt reference to a deity, and a male one:

Brothers, above the canopy of stars
must dwell *a loving father.*

Do you bow down before Him, you millions?
Do you sense *your Creator, *O world?
Seek *Him* above the canopy of stars!
*He* must dwell beyond the stars.

Still, this is secular enough to avoid being an advertisement for Christianity of any particular brand.

It's interesting that "all beings" are included in this blessing. Does "all being" refer to the animal world as well? I hope so, 'cause I ain't going' to Heaven if they won't let my dog in!






A "worm" is mentioned just after:
"All beings drink joy on the breast of nature; all good and all evil men follow a path strewn with roses. She gave us kisses and vintage, a friend who is true unto death. *The worm receives the joy of life* and the cherub stands before *God!"*


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

^ That is an awesome video!


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

There are two threads about this symphony on the front page, hmm.

I listened to it yesterday, Karajan/Berlin '63, on a short plane ride, it was over just about the time I landed. It'd been years. I liked it but it remains far from my favorite of his symphonies. Also I prefer the first movement to the Choral finale.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Fritz Kobus said:


> ^ That is an awesome video!


Thank you, Fritz...That was from a Twilight Zone episode called "The Hunt." 
When I was still a kid, the Twilight Zone was my favorite TV show. I was so young I didn't always understand the endings. But this one I will always remember, because it answered that question that all kids ask, "Do dogs go to heaven?"


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

_"His friend and biographer Anton Schindler considered Beethoven a deist, especially due to the Enlightenment's strong influence in Bonn as Beethoven came of age. Furthermore, Beethoven's choice of text in the choral movement of his ninth symphony indicates at least an interest (if not a belief) in Pantheism."_
https://www.conservapedia.com/Ludwig_van_Beethoven

I think the whole idea of god, worship, divinity in Beethoven's 9th (and Missa Solemnis) is deism. So the question whether these pieces are secular or religious depends on whether or not you consider deism a religion. Personally, I don't think it's that important an issue. Wagner wrote music based on myths and legends- if you're an atheist and consider religion as some kind of a fairy tale, then it shouldn't be that important an issue to you whether the music itself is religious or secular. It's the emotion they wanted to express through the music (and not the extra-musical messages) that's important.


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