# Beethoven's "Eroica" Symphony



## timothyjuddviolin (Nov 1, 2011)

Here's a short listener's guide to the first movement of the "Erocia", along with a great performance by Bernstein and the Vienna Philharmonic:

Beethoven's "Eroica", Part 1


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Thanks. This saturday I heard the Eroica in concert and it was great. Because the symphony was new to me I listened to it before the concert quite a bit and the first movement is my favorite. Its probably a silly thing to say but maybe it should have been the final movement? I think the same way about the fifth symphony. The endings of both first movements are so good they couldve been the endings of the entire symphony.


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## Benny (Feb 4, 2013)

My favorite performance is Erich Kleiber.


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## GiulioCesare (Apr 9, 2013)

DeepR said:


> Thanks. This saturday I heard the Eroica in concert and it was great. Because the symphony was new to me I listened to it before the concert quite a bit and the first movement is my favorite. Its probably a silly thing to say but maybe it should have been the final movement? I think the same way about the fifth symphony. The endings of both first movements are so good they couldve been the endings of the entire symphony.


The first movements are both in the sonata-allegro form, therefore stereotypical first movements of symphonies. I agree with you that the first movement of the 3rd symphony is the best, but I tend to like the last one of the 5th better than the first one.

Both works are masterpieces, of course.

As to the Eroica, I prefer HIP performances like Gardiner's:


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

I think Beethoven's symphonies No. 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 are all better than the Eroica, from a holistic point of view. But the Eroica is a unique creation, not only among symphonies, but among all classical works. It has "New Directions" literally stamped on it, and I think it was head and shoulders above anything Beethoven wrote until that point. The first movement gives me goosebumps, it's just so -- brilliant. Very nearly the best symphonic movement he ever wrote.

I like Karajan/BPO (1963) and Gardiner/Orchestra Revolutionnaire, Karajan's recording is very good.


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## Reinhold (Nov 24, 2013)

I'm not the biggest fan of the Eroica, but this recording is great!


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

Love this symphony. I've been really enjoying Vanska with the Minnesota Orchestra. His vision and execution are incredible.


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## aakermit (Nov 23, 2013)

timothyjuddviolin said:


> Here's a short listener's guide to the first movement of the "Erocia", along with a great performance by Bernstein and the Vienna Philharmonic:
> 
> Beethoven's "Eroica", Part 1


Thank you for posting this. After many years of very casual listening to classical music I have taken on a keen interest in learning and hearing much more detail in this music and appreciating it in all it's glory. The _Eroica_ seems a good place to start. I have watched and listened to Prof. Robert Greenberg's lesson on Beethoven's Third Symphony and am now sampling various versions including this one.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

GiulioCesare said:


> The first movements are both in the sonata-allegro form, therefore stereotypical first movements of symphonies. I agree with you that the first movement of the 3rd symphony is the best, but I tend to like the last one of the 5th better than the first one.
> 
> Both works are masterpieces, of course.
> 
> As to the Eroica, I prefer HIP performances like Gardiner's:


The actual performance in the movie is very good - better than Gardiner's recording of the work - although it misses out the first movement repeat. It is, of course,art of a movie so there are many interruptions.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

shangoyal said:


> I t
> 
> I like Karajan/BPO (1963) and Gardiner/Orchestra Revolutionnaire, Karajan's recording is very good.


I have both of these plus HvK's 1977 which is even better than 1963 I think.

Klemperer is superb in the funeral march. Karajan once called in his dressing room after a performance to tell Klemperer that he hoped one day he would be able to conduct the funeral March as well as he (Klemperer) did that evening. Quite a compliment!
Harnoncourt is good. Norrington a bit too HIP correct.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

HvK '63 for me, and this reissue.

View attachment 29334


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## DaDirkNL (Aug 26, 2013)

Karajan's '63 for me. The Eroica is in my top 5 symphonies of all time. Such an incredible work.


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## Benny (Feb 4, 2013)

I don't like Karajan, certainly not in Beethoven.

(What?? not even the 5th??? Yes, not even the 5th).


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## samurai (Apr 22, 2011)

Benny said:


> I don't like Karajan, certainly not in Beethoven.
> 
> (What?? not even the 5th??? Yes, not even the 5th).


May I ask why?....


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Vaneyes said:


> HvK '63 for me, and this reissue.
> 
> View attachment 29334


That is an, uh, unfortunate pose, Herb.


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

I have been listening to the finale of the Eroica almost everyday for the last 2 weeks, and it's incredible. Just such good music, it's like Beethoven smiling down from heaven or something, it's just a heroic musical work, not angsty or angry or miserable or long-winded. Just good.

And I just heard a 1913 recording by Arthur Nikisch with the BPO which is included on the complete Beethoven box-set and it is superb, now I cannot like the Karajan that much again.  Is it something with too much clarity on modern recordings that is not that likeable? Or maybe they don't play the music as passionately, and take a safer, more technical approach which relies less on the spirit of the music - honestly, the Karajan sounds like some second-rate John Williams-Steven Spielberg movie soundtrack to me now.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I also have Karajan '83 version which is pretty good - perhaps the best from that set of the symphonies. Superb funeral march.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

My favorite performance of the Eroica belongs to Arturo Toscanini from his great NBC Symphony cycle of 1939.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

shangoyal said:


> I have been listening to the finale of the Eroica almost everyday for the last 2 weeks, and it's incredible. Just such good music, it's like Beethoven smiling down from heaven or something, it's just a heroic musical work, not angsty or angry or miserable or long-winded. Just good.
> 
> And I just heard a 1913 recording by Arthur Nikisch with the BPO which is included on the complete Beethoven box-set and it is superb, now I cannot like the Karajan that much again.  Is it something with too much clarity on modern recordings that is not that likeable? Or maybe they don't play the music as passionately, and take a safer, more technical approach which relies less on the spirit of the music - honestly, the Karajan sounds like some second-rate John Williams-Steven Spielberg movie soundtrack to me now.


 I´m not aware that Nikisch did the Eroica; but he certainly did the 5th Symphony. Are you sure about the conductor there? Could it be it Schuricht in 1941 (http://www.amazon.com/review/R39XG1Q4DUI2DJ/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt#R39XG1Q4DUI2DJ), Oskar Fried or someone else, for example?

*Scherchen*´s Westminster Eroica - in stereo - is one of his best and most interesting recordings.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

hpowders said:


> My favorite performance of the Eroica belongs to Arturo Toscanini from his great NBC Symphony cycle of 1939.


Toscanini's is positively volcanic but the recording is poor and dry.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Toscanini's is positively volcanic but the recording is poor and dry.


I bought this set twice from M&A, each promising improved re-mastering, but as you say, not so great. I couldn't even begin to fathom how wonderful it must have been to hear this great cycle live!


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

joen_cph said:


> I´m not aware that Nikisch did the Eroica; but he certainly did the 5th Symphony. Are you sure about the conductor there? Could it be it Schuricht in 1941 (http://www.amazon.com/review/R39XG1Q4DUI2DJ/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt#R39XG1Q4DUI2DJ), Oskar Fried or someone else, for example?
> 
> *Scherchen*´s Westminster Eroica - in stereo - is one of his best and most interesting recordings.


:lol:

Yes! You are right! I misread the liner notes, and it is indeed Schuricht with the BPO from 1941, but of course it's a great performance.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

^^^^
Ok - the Nikisch 5th - from 1913 or so - has extraordinarily poor sound, so it´s difficult to imagine that anyone would really prefer that vintage date to more modern recordings ;-).


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## ejsledge (Dec 6, 2013)

The first movement of the Eroica is at least one of B's best symphonic movements. I have to include the first mvt of the 5th, because it is so unique to all symphonic literature (at least all that I know). B himself was clear that his best symphony was the Eroica - and I suspect that the first movement was his favorite movement of it.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I never knew that Beethoven "was clear" that his best symphony was the Eroica. Sources?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

hpowders said:


> I never knew that Beethoven "was clear" that his best symphony was the Eroica. Sources?


If I may: "Hofrath Kueffner told Krenn that he once lived with Beethoven in Heiligenstadt, and that they were in the habit evenings of going down to Nussdorf to eat a fish supper in the Gasthaus 'Zur Rose.' One evening when B. was in a good humor, Kueffner began: 'Tell me frankly which is your favorite among your symphonies?' B. (in good humor) 'Eh! Eh! The Eroica.' K. 'I should have guessed the C minor.' B. 'No; the Eroica.'" From Thayer's notebook. Don't know the year, but believe this was before B wrote the 9th Symphony.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

KenOC said:


> If I may: "Hofrath Kueffner told Krenn that he once lived with Beethoven in Heiligenstadt, and that they were in the habit evenings of going down to Nussdorf to eat a fish supper in the Gasthaus 'Zur Rose.' One evening when B. was in a good humor, Kueffner began: 'Tell me frankly which is your favorite among your symphonies?' B. (in good humor) 'Eh! Eh! The Eroica.' K. 'I should have guessed the C minor.' B. 'No; the Eroica.'" From Thayer's notebook. Don't know the year, but believe this was before B wrote the 9th Symphony.


Thanks. I just hope he wasn't drunk ("in good humor") and full well knew what he was saying and wasn't simply being playfully sarcastic.


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## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

KenOC said:


> If I may: "Hofrath Kueffner told Krenn that he once lived with Beethoven in Heiligenstadt, and that they were in the habit evenings of going down to Nussdorf to eat a fish supper in the Gasthaus 'Zur Rose.' One evening when B. was in a good humor, Kueffner began: 'Tell me frankly which is your favorite among your symphonies?' B. (in good humor) 'Eh! Eh! The Eroica.' K. 'I should have guessed the C minor.' B. 'No; the Eroica.'" From Thayer's notebook. Don't know the year, but believe this was before B wrote the 9th Symphony.


I believe Kueffner's next statement to Beethoven was something my wife says to me often. "Do you even hear what you're saying right now?"


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Yeah. In an inebriated state, he may have just been acting playful. Who knows if he seriously meant what he said. I know he was supposed to have considered his 8th symphony as better than the 7th. So what did he know?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

hpowders said:


> Yeah. In an inebriated state, he may have just been acting playful. Who knows if he seriously meant what he said. I know he was supposed to have considered his 8th symphony as better than the 7th. So what did he know?


Why do you assume he was drunk? And in any event "In vino veritas."


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Why do you assume he was drunk? And in any event "In vino veritas."


Because that's what folks did back then when they went out to dine with friends-have bottles of wine. I'm sure they didn't order bottled water.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

hpowders said:


> Because that's what folks did back then when they went out to dine with friends-have bottles of wine. I'm sure they didn't order bottled water.


It is possible to drink without becoming drunk.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

ahammel said:


> It is possible to drink without becoming drunk.


Some people may have watched "Immortal Beloved" too many times. I can't remember any anecdotes of Beethoven being drunk. Not to say it couldn't have happened! Certainly he liked his wine, but he was a bit particular. Now Dvorak...


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Some people may have watched "Immortal Beloved" too many times. I can't remember any anecdotes of Beethoven being drunk. Not to say it couldn't have happened! Certainly he liked his wine, but he was a bit particular. Now Dvorak...


Dvorak they say, could stick it away
Half a crate of whisky every day!
Monteverdi Monteverdi
Was a bugger for the sherry.
Brahms was fond of his dram;
And Wolfgang Mozart was a drunken fart,
But no worse than Ludwig Van.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Well done ahammel! Now what rhymes with Sibelius, who was our real problem child?


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## samurai (Apr 22, 2011)

KenOC said:


> Well done ahammel! Now what rhymes with Sibelius, who was our real problem child?


Rebellious? :scold:


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

ahammel said:


> It is possible to drink without becoming drunk.


Even so, they could be "stimulated" into saying things they would later regret. Happened to me 2 nights ago.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

KenOC said:


> If I may: "Hofrath Kueffner told Krenn that he once lived with Beethoven in Heiligenstadt, and that they were in the habit evenings of going down to Nussdorf to eat a fish supper in the Gasthaus 'Zur Rose.' One evening when B. was in a good humor, Kueffner began: 'Tell me frankly which is your favorite among your symphonies?' B. (in good humor) 'Eh! Eh! The Eroica.' K. 'I should have guessed the C minor.' B. 'No; the Eroica.'" From Thayer's notebook. Don't know the year, but believe this was before B wrote the 9th Symphony.


Very similar story to what I read in Romain Rolland's book, Beethoven the Creator. As I recall it was before the Ninth was written. Not sure if it was in the text or probably a footnote.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

One of my least favorite Beethoven Symphonies is the Eroica. 
My favorite movement is the concise, delightful scherzo.
If I could email Beethoven with criticism it would be "Please keep it pithy!! You are starting to turn into Bruckner here!!"


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2014)

hpowders said:


> [...] If I could email Beethoven with criticism it would be "Please keep it pithy!! You are starting to turn into Bruckner here!!"


And then you would receive an email by return along these lines: 
"My dear Herr HStaub, please, du komme yetz bei my place und zen I strap du to mein neu und shiny and very expensive Graaf fortepiano and zthrow it out of ze vindow. Yours etc., Louis vB."


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I wouldn't be stupid enough to komm zu his place. You think a dummkopf of me?


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Klemperer, the EMI stereo recording. Never topped imho.


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## Guest (Feb 12, 2014)

I have Klemperer's EMI recording, Hogwood's, Szell's Sony Essential Classics, and Vanska's BIS recordings. I love them all, but the Hogwood is my least favorite - compared to the others, it just feels too thin. Klemperer and Vanska are at the top for me.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

hpowders said:


> One of my least favorite Beethoven Symphonies is the Eroica.
> My favorite movement is the concise, delightful scherzo.
> If I could email Beethoven with criticism it would be "Please keep it pithy!! You are starting to turn into Bruckner here!!"


That's interesting because I have read the opposite opinion, that the scherzo is unnecessary. I think Brahms gets flack for the scherzo in his Symphony #4 too, I have come across that opinion. That these are diversions from the main 'arguments' of these symphonies. But I think without them, it would be all kind of heavy going, they put it in there to make it a bit lighter (so why not have a diversion?).


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Itullian said:


> Klemperer, the EMI stereo recording. Never topped imho.


Great performance of the funeral march. But is the first movement really 'Allegro con brio' at K's pace?


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Great performance of the funeral march. But is the first movement really 'Allegro con brio' at K's pace?


YES, It's monumental at that pace.


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

These days, the finale of the Eroica is my favourite Beethoven symphony movement, along with the finale of the 5th. Such joy in both these pieces, they are truly gifts to mankind from the great man.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Sid James said:


> That's interesting because I have read the opposite opinion, that the scherzo is unnecessary. I think Brahms gets flack for the scherzo in his Symphony #4 too, I have come across that opinion. That these are diversions from the main 'arguments' of these symphonies. But I think without them, it would be all kind of heavy going, they put it in there to make it a bit lighter (so why not have a diversion?).


How can the scherzo be considered unnecessary? It provides welcome contrasting relief from the seriousness and tension of the funeral march movement that precedes it.

Yes without the scherzo, the Eroica would be "heavy going" or at least more "heavy going".

Regardless, the Eroica is the Beethoven symphony I play the least.

The rest of you, enjoy it if you must.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

hpowders said:


> The rest of you, enjoy it [the Eroica ] if you must.


We must. We cannot but listen to it. It is like a compulsion. We are drawn into it, immersed in it, want to wrap it around ourselves and then do it all over again. That is how wonderful the Eroica is.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Florestan said:


> We must. We cannot but listen to it. It is like a compulsion. We are drawn into it, immersed in it, want to wrap it around ourselves and then do it all over again. That is how wonderful the Eroica is.


Wonderful to you. That's fine. I'd rather be drawn into Vincent Persichetti's piano sonatas. The Eroica has had its day. Now its time for me to move on with music more relevant to my time.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

hpowders said:


> Wonderful to you. That's fine. I'd rather be drawn into Vincent Persichetti's piano sonatas. The Eroica has had its day. Now its time for me to move on with music more relevant to my time.


You have to move where the music takes you. The good thing is that there is so much music out there we should never get bored.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Florestan said:


> You have to move where the music takes you. The good thing is that there is so much music out there we should never get bored.


Exactly and I thank you for understanding. I'm glad the Eroica symphony is something you love. There is surely plenty of music for everybody. No need to fight over it. We should respect each other's right to choose.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

For those of you who love the Eroica Symphony, you owe it to yourself to hear Arturo Toscanini's performance from his 1939 Beethoven cycle with the NBC orchestra.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

hpowders said:


> How can the scherzo be considered unnecessary? It provides welcome contrasting relief from the seriousness and tension of the funeral march movement that precedes it.
> 
> Yes without the scherzo, the Eroica would be "heavy going" or at least more "heavy going".


We can probably say the same thing about not only Brahms but also Bruckner and Mahler. Even though, of course, some of the latter two's scherzos have darker undertones compared to Beethoven. I think Beethoven was still an optimist, but the later guys got more ambivalent view of scherzos, it came with that age of doubt. The Enlightenment had truly passed by the time Mahler came along (not to mention Shostakovich!).



> ...
> Regardless, the Eroica is the Beethoven symphony I play the least.
> 
> The rest of you, enjoy it if you must.


I play it more than his others, but it can be not only because I like it but also by sheer default, becuase it was amongst the first symphonies I got to know by him, the others being 5, 6, 9.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Sid James said:


> We can probably say the same thing about not only Brahms but also Bruckner and Mahler. Even though, of course, some of the latter two's scherzos have darker undertones compared to Beethoven. I think Beethoven was still an optimist, but the later guys got more ambivalent view of scherzos, it came with that age of doubt. The Enlightenment had truly passed by the time Mahler came along (not to mention Shostakovich!).
> 
> I play it more than his others, but it can be not only because I like it but also by sheer default, becuase it was amongst the first symphonies I got to know by him, the others being 5, 6, 9.


 If the Funeral March is played at an appropriately deliberate tempo, as I feel it should, the scherzo seems a necessity to me. Something lighter to break that mood. On the other hand, I can see the other side of the argument, why break the mood that Beethoven took 18 minutes to create? Perhaps Beethoven should have left instructions to "pause one minute" after the Funeral March before proceeding. Perhaps conductors today might consider giving a one minute pause before proceeding, standing motionless on the podium with head down, appropriately grave.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

As detailed in a letter written by Beethoven's brother, Ludwig couldn't decide whether to include the Eroica's first-movement exposition repeat or not. On the one hand, he feared at it would simply make the symphony too long; on the other, he thought that the themes and so forth had to be clearly understood and remembered before moving on to the development.

He actually had the symphony performed in rehearsal both ways over a number of days. In the end, he decided to include the repeat. Nowadays of course the repeat is a matter of religion; I'm sure we're far more certain about the issue than Beethoven was!


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

hpowders said:


> For those of you who love the Eroica Symphony, you owe it to yourself to hear Arturo Toscanini's performance from his 1939 Beethoven cycle with the NBC orchestra.


Actually, I better like his 1950 Carnegie Hall recording (which also has better sound).


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

GGluek said:


> Actually, I better like his 1950 Carnegie Hall recording (which also has better sound).


The 1939 has had a recent remastering and the sound, considering the source, is pretty good.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

hpowders said:


> The 1939 has had a recent remastering and the sound, considering the source, is pretty good.


How about a 1929 Eroica that appears to be free for the downloading? Hans Pfitzner from 78 RPM


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

One of my favs along with Klemperer. I like the Eroica to be monumental.
Giulini makes it a spiritual journey as well.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Florestan said:


> How about a 1929 Eroica that appears to be free for the downloading? Hans Pfitzner from 78 RPM


I'm all for "free"!! Thanks!


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Been surfin Amazon for Eroicas and found one that looks pretty interesting.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Florestan said:


> Been surfin Amazon for Eroicas and found one that looks pretty interesting.


The original Gramophone review enjoyed this but thought the first movement too slow.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

That's all I need, a slow Eroica.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

DavidA said:


> The original Gramophone review enjoyed this but thought the first movement too slow.


Sounds great then


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Here is an interesting rating list of Eroica performances.
You'll see in the URL address that it is about the Eroica.
Has my current favorite (of the few I have heard) Gunter Wand performance on the good part of the list.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Florestan said:


> Here is an interesting rating list of Eroica performances.
> You'll see in the URL address that it is about the Eroica.
> Has my current favorite (of the few I have heard) Gunter Wand performance on the good part of the list.


I have the entire Gunter Wand set. One of my favorite Beethoven cycles. His Pastorale is my favorite except for a slightly slow peasant dance.

Gunter Wand's Beethoven moves me as few others do.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

hpowders said:


> I have the entire Gunter Wand set. One of my favorite Beethoven cycles. His Pastorale is my favorite except for a slightly slow peasant dance.
> 
> Gunter Wand's Beethoven moves me as few others do.


Thanks, Even though I have the Bruno Walter cycle, now I am seriously considering this 9 symphony cycle by Wand:


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

hpowders said:


> I have the entire Gunter Wand set. One of my favorite Beethoven cycles. His Pastorale is my favorite except for a slightly slow peasant dance.
> 
> Gunter Wand's Beethoven moves me as few others do.


I'll have to grab this. I love Wand's take on Bruckner.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

AS for me the movements 3+4 are the best to me .


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Florestan said:


> Thanks, Even though I have the Bruno Walter cycle, now I am seriously considering this 9 symphony cycle by Wand:


You've inspired me to play the whole thing again, except for the Wand Pastoral, which I played a few days ago.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Fantastic! I have been focused on the third and ninth, but plan to start listening to them all--soon as the Wand set arrives. Yep, I ordered it already. Just went through 1, 2, 4-8 with Walter last week. A lot of good listening. Maybe good to put all nine on my player and keep cycling through them. I heard Wand's ninth is pretty good.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Gunter Wand: Beethoven with feeling. Wand takes his time.
Not a modern rush job from the "informed" camp as represented by Chailly, whose cycle I detest.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Yes, takes his time  Yes
you're getting it.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

mtmailey said:


> AS for me the movements 3+4 are the best to me .


I would agree with that, though I rate the scherzo as number one.


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2014)

Forum members might like to read this:
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Eroica-Symphony-Cambridge-Handbooks/dp/0521475627


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

TalkingHead said:


> Forum members might like to read this:
> http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Eroica-Symphony-Cambridge-Handbooks/dp/0521475627


Looks like a fascinating read. Thanks!


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Also this book is very good Beethoven the Creator
Has a chapter on the Eroica.


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## SARDiver (Jan 6, 2014)

I recently purchased the complete Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven symphony cycles. I'd had a steady diet of Haydn, then popped in the disc with Eroica on it, and I'd never heard it before. Although I had been enjoying Haydn quite a bit, I had something of an epiphany when the 3rd came on. I like to think my reaction was similar to that of the first audience who heard it.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

SARDiver said:


> I recently purchased the complete Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven symphony cycles. I'd had a steady diet of Haydn, then popped in the disc with Eroica on it, and I'd never heard it before. Although I had been enjoying Haydn quite a bit, I had something of an epiphany when the 3rd came on. I like to think my reaction was similar to that of the first audience who heard it.


I hope your reaction was not similar. Here is what the liner notes to my Gunter Wand Eroica CD says:


> [The Eroica] horrified the audience of the premiere performance.


They just weren't ready for something so wonderful, so different, so innovative, so majestic...


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## SARDiver (Jan 6, 2014)

Florestan said:


> I hope your reaction was not similar. Here is what the liner notes to my Gunter Wand Eroica CD says:
> 
> They just weren't ready for something so wonderful, so different, so innovative, so majestic...


WOW! I wonder if they were predisposed to dislike it because it was outside the norm, or I was predisposed to like it because it's so famous. If I recall, I had to check to see what it was, so I don't think I was listening with expectations. I'm trying not to "pre-load" opinions based on the views of others (to the extent possible).


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

The Wikipedia writeup says that with the Eroica, Beethoven was "turning tradition upside down." I think the people were upset because they were expecting more of the same.

Either way, I am glad you like the Eroica so much. It is one of my favorite symphonies, that and the Ninth.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

The Eroica was certainly controversial, but to say it "horrified" audiences may be going a bit far. Here's a snippet from an 1806 review in the major music periodical of the time, written even before the score was published:

"...it is certain -- all connoisseurs' voices that the reviewer has heard agree, if not the authors of certain leaflets! -- it is certain, I say, that this symphony is one of the most original, sublime, and profound products that music has to show for itself."


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

All was not sweetness and light. From a review of a Vienna concert in late 1808:

"Still more difficult is the great Beethoven Symphony in E-flat Major. Conducted by the composer himself, it received much applause. In spite of what has been written about this work of art, the reviewer has to remain true to his original opinion that he rendered upon its first performance. The Symphony, indeed, contains much that is sublime and beautiful, but it is mixed with a great deal of peculiarities and broadness. Only through revision can it achieve the pure form of a perfect work of art. A new Overture by this composer, who is supposed to have been hired on terms very advantageous to the theater, is full of strength and fire. According to its title it was designated for Collin's Coriolan."


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I would imagine those first audiences found the long funeral march quite an ordeal to sit through being accustomed to those much shorter Haydn slow movements.


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2014)

I have a theory about the Eroica. Admittedly a tenuous one, but I have applied Occam's razor to it and have eliminated all extraneous superfluity. The theory is this: that the two opening hammer-blow E-flat chords are the first and last words that encapsulate the entire symphony. Thank you. 
Excuse me a moment, there is a doctor at the door ...


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

^^^^Yeah. I sent him! 

By the way, I'll stick with "Wilkinson Sword".

PS: Good try!!!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

TalkingHead said:


> I have a theory about the Eroica. Admittedly a tenuous one, but I have applied Occam's razor to it and have eliminated all extraneous superfluity. The theory is this: that the two opening hammer-blow E-flat chords are the first and last words that encapsulate the entire symphony. Thank you.
> Excuse me a moment, there is a doctor at the door ...


I have the same theory, which certainly doesn't speak well for its credibility! :lol:


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## Rocco (Nov 25, 2013)

I just listened to the Eroica three times today. Very good Symphony.
I have three in my collection. Bernstein, Karajan, and Gardiner. I'm still trying to figure out which of the three is my favorite.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

It's not a crime to love all three!


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## Rocco (Nov 25, 2013)

hpowders said:


> It's not a crime to love all three!


No, and that just might be what it comes down to...


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Rocco said:


> No, and that just might be what it comes down to...


One day you may even learn to love a fourth performance. Have you heard Gunter Wand's Eroica?


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## Rocco (Nov 25, 2013)

hpowders said:


> One day you may even learn to love a fourth performance. Have you heard Gunter Wand's Eroica?


No, but I somehow have a feeling I might be adding a copy of that to my collection soon...


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Rocco said:


> No, but I somehow have a feeling I might be adding a copy of that to my collection soon...


And I believe I know just the guy who would sell it to you!


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## Rocco (Nov 25, 2013)

hpowders said:


> And I believe I know just the guy who would sell it to you!


I don't doubt that you do..:lol: I think you are the first one on TC to figure out that we are related...


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Rocco said:


> I don't doubt that you do..:lol: I think you are the first one on TC to figure out that we are related...


That's terrific. I wish my brother was deeply into classical music. I would love to trade CD's with him, but alas.....


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

The first movement is my favorite movement of all his symphonies. At the moment.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

That is the key phrase isn't it, "At the moment"?


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