# The Conductor's Role



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Is there a performance by a conductor that just gets to you every time?

My instinctive feeling about the conductor's role is that he should stay out of the way of the music. Reason adds that to give the impression of someone who has stepped out of the way and allowed the music to flow, he sometimes has to do an awful lot of work getting people to play together and in the right balance. So it's kind of a thankless task. And then add to that the fact that I've never noticed a conductor's work for more than thirty minutes into a piece; after that I'm either not listening or the music has won.

But Schippers' job on Lucia di Lammermoor, with Sills and Bergonzi and Cappuccilli and Diaz, always gets to me. He's like a regie director, whose conception of a drama isn't even close to the composer's or the librettist's, but who carries the day nonetheless. He seems to treat the drama as though it were being acted by the orchestra, while all the vocal pyrotechnics are basically a kind of obbligato, work for supernumeraries. Important supers; he doesn't disrespect them at all; but they're not what's really going on, I think, to him.

How about you? Any conductor's work that always makes you sit up and go "ah that was good"?


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

guythegreg said:


> Is there a performance by a conductor that just gets to you every time?
> 
> My instinctive feeling about the conductor's role is that he should stay out of the way of the music. Reason adds that to give the impression of someone who has stepped out of the way and allowed the music to flow, he sometimes has to do an awful lot of work getting people to play together and in the right balance. So it's kind of a thankless task. And then add to that the fact that I've never noticed a conductor's work for more than thirty minutes into a piece; after that I'm either not listening or the music has won.
> 
> ...


Once you are into the piece you can't be not listening can you?
Also what you are listenig to is obviously the work of the conductor and if you listen to a whole raft of recordings of a work you will find them all different.
The great conductors interpret a work for you and people like Stokowski,Thomas Beecham,Furtwaengler,etc.etc. make all the difference to a works effect on the audience.
Some you like,some you don't but the one you like is an interpretation.
Otherwise every concert and every recording would sound alike wouldn't it?


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

The conductor is probably the most important person in an opera performance . He or she, can make or break a performance . The conductor is the brains behind the performance . The best cast in the world for any opera is pretty much helpless without an able conductor . You can assemble a fabulous cast , and an incomepetent and clueless conductor will ruin the performance. Conversely , a highly skillful and experienced conductor can make a performance work with even a less than ideal cast .
Conducting opera is an incredibvly difficult and complex job which requires a staggering amount of knowledge and technical skill . Conducting orchestral music is difficult enough, but opera is even tougher .
It's been described as like being the ringmaster at a three-ring circus . You have the singers, the chorus ,and sometimes a ballet to handle, control and keep together . You have to be alert to anything going wrong, such as a singer making a mistake, getting lost or out of sync with th e orchestra ,make sure the orchestra is not drowning out the singers , make sure your tempi are not either too slow or too fast for the singers ,
and much,much more .You have to be extremely flexible and breathe with the singers 
You have to worlk closely with the singers before rehearsal , so ypou know what they are trying to do , and sometimes they can be very difficult if you don't like something they are doing musically .
Then there are the rehearsals with the orchestra alone, then in combination with the singers .
Then when the perfrormances come, anything can happen or go wrong .


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

guythegreg said:


> My instinctive feeling about the conductor's role is that he should stay out of the way of the music. Reason adds that to give the impression of someone who has stepped out of the way and allowed the music to flow, he sometimes has to do an awful lot of work getting people to play together and in the right balance.


I have to disagree, as well. From listening to different recordings of the same operas you can tell how much a conductor is in control. S/he is, indeed, the musical equivalent of the stage director; s/he's (hopefully) got a coherent vision and will be able to keep it until the end (understand the composer and maybe try to do something different as well).

I know singers often complain about tyrannical conductors, but imagine if everyone involved were left to their own devices. Why, the biggest egos would immediately take over, both from the stage and the pit, the lazy or off-day musicians/singers wouldn't push themselves, whatever small issues could become really serious (singers who lost their way could just clam up altogether, singers might out-sing each other out of spite etc.) - it would end up in general cacophony. Now if the conductor is in perfect control s/he won't even need to do much rescuing, as they will be able to fix every problem as it arises, not to mention curb the divas' egos.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

guythegreg said:


> The Conductor's Role


...is that of a sound engineer, firstly, to make the orchestra sound in its full might, and then second comes the interpretation of the piece about to be played: to convey an updated consideration of the composer's design!


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Gosh ... anyone might think I'd said something bad about conductors! 

My first sentence was a statement about myself, not about conductors. When I said "instinctive" I meant unformed, naive, thoughtless. I was trolling for others' instinctive thoughts, to see how mine compare with yours. Perhaps I should have expanded that statement a bit.

My second sentence was meant to thoughtfully qualify instinct with judgment, that being the natural progression I think, and give a better view of what role I think conductors generally have.

And since no one apparently read the question, or perhaps they just didn't give a cr*p about it, the less said the better about THAT.

It is a bit disturbing to see what godlike powers some people here seem to attribute to conductors. I believe some rather large organizations of musicians have run quite successfully without conductors, however, and so it seems unlikely that they truly do possess the magisterial roles some seem to love to attribute to them. If technology could come up with an automated way for large groups of musicians themselves to come to agreement on and adjust balance and timing, I feel certain much of the conductor's work would be taken from him. Or her, of course.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

guythegreg said:


> Gosh ... anyone might think I'd said something bad about conductors!
> 
> My first sentence was a statement about myself, not about conductors. When I said "instinctive" I meant unformed, naive, thoughtless. I was trolling for others' instinctive thoughts, to see how mine compare with yours. Perhaps I should have expanded that statement a bit.
> 
> ...


Did you ever actually attend a concert given by a "great" conductor ?
I would guess not because the naive nature of this post suggests a lack of experience.Nothing wrong with that in itself but having asked for comments you appear disgruntled by the replies.
If you had been present when Toscanini,Furtwaengler,Bruno Walter,Stokowski,,Szell,Beecham,klemperer and a number of others were conducting you would no longer believe a conductor should stand out of the way.
When Toscanini died his orchestra tried to carry on without a conductor and made at least one record in that state,
It won't work!!
Why choose famous actors for Shakespeare plays,put anybody on the stage to say the lines,that way they won't get in the way with their interpretations---will they?
Who are the large organisations who exist without conductors by the way ?
One point you made I certainly agree with i.e. "the less said the better", I intend to duck out of this thread and now feel that Iwish I hadn't got into it.


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## JCarmel (Feb 3, 2013)

This is a most enjoyable dvd about the most notable conductors of the last century...I think it's a fascinating watch.









After seeing it, I came to think that there were perhaps just a very few conductors indeed who had that mystery ingredient, that sheer force of personality and musical intelligence, that could draw a special response from the members of an orchestra such that would overcome their natural scepticism.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

My understanding of the conductor's role in a performance is that most of it is accomplished in rehearsal. During public performance he does little more useful work than help keep time - assuming that the rehearsal work has been done. I have very little confidence in the validity of my understanding on this subject though.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Hilltroll72 said:


> My understanding of the conductor's role in a performance is that most of it is accomplished in rehearsal. During public performance he does little more useful work than help keep time - assuming that the rehearsal work has been done. I have very little confidence in the validity of my understanding on this subject though.


That in essence is correct of course,but if you watch say Reiner,you can soon tell if things are not to his liking.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Most of my favorite performances, opera or otherwise, were when conductors dared to get in the way of the music. Interpretation is everything. Dare to be great.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Hilltroll72 said:


> My understanding of the conductor's role in a performance is that most of it is accomplished in rehearsal. During public performance he does little more useful work than help keep time - assuming that the rehearsal work has been done. I have very little confidence in the validity of my understanding on this subject though.


Depends on the conductor, Knappersbusch (for example) disliked rehearsal and preferred to go on the inspiration of the moment.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*What a conductor does*



Hilltroll72 said:


> My understanding of the conductor's role in a performance is that most of it is accomplished in rehearsal. During public performance he does little more useful work than help keep time - assuming that the rehearsal work has been done. I have very little confidence in the validity of my understanding on this subject though.


guythegreg,

Sorry that this discussion did not go as you had hoped.

As an amateur orchestral musician, I can say that what 'Hilltroll72' said is essentially the truth. 90% of what a conductor does is accomplished during the rehearsal. How critical a conductor is during the performance depends on the piece of music.  Since we amateurs are more unstable that professionals, we are in greater need of the conductor during a live performance. His role is really critical if we are performing a work with many tempo changes. For some works, once we know what to do, all the conductor has to do is give a downbeat and off we go.

There is one misconception that many do have. In spite of the sophistication of the Western European Notation System, it is impossible for a composer to note everything he wants done. The sheet music can only cover about 80% of a composers intentions. It is up to the conductor and the musicians fill in what is missing and since Beethoven is dead, even what a conductor does is a best guess. Even with what is written down, the conductor and the individual musicians still have a lot of leeway on how to perform the music.

Two of the biggest functions that a conductor does at a rehearsal is establish the tempos and determining the balance between the various musicians. Also the size of the group can effect the dynamics. A mezzo piano in a chamber orchestra is not going to be the same as a mezzo piano in a large 100 piece orchestra. Also the acoustics of the concert hall can effect tempo and dynamics. It is up to the conductor to fine tune these elements during the rehearsal.

Let me try to give an example. Many time the music will have a gradual crescendo. It may be three or four measures in length. Some conductors will want the crescendo to be gradual throughout the three or four measures. Some will have the musicians hold off and have most of the crescendo occur in only the last few beats. Whichever method is correct I guess depends on ones point of view.

I know I have probably given you a weak explanation. I hope what I have said helps and addresses your OP.


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## jurianbai (Nov 23, 2008)

Nobody meantioned about the batton? Conductor is the only one who has it.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Riccardo Muti tells us about conducting: _"What really...I do?"_


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## Kivimees (Feb 16, 2013)

I know International Women's Day was on Friday, but...


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

Kivimees said:


> I know International Women's Day was on Friday, but...


Anu Tali I think? I've heared her conduct in Stockholm once, not bad at all!

/ptr


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I once asked the conductor, Hans Vonk, why orchestras sounded different under different conductors. He said he did't know - it was just something that happened.


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

Consider the conductor a musician (most of them play an instrument anyway), the soloists (singers in case of opera) and the orchestra are his/her instrument. Of course there are limitations to what a person can do on their instrument, but the conductor has to able to get the right sound out of these musicians, according to his/her interpretation of the piece that is performed.

Watch some documentaries about conductors, it's fascinating. 

In opera produtions the conductor should be the one who is responsible for the production and he/she must always be able to overrule the director. Sadly this isn't always the case.


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## onmeds (Apr 23, 2013)

The conductor has the obligation to bring the space that makes the vessel valuable.
The emptiness that gives the room utility. The paper that makes the font legible.
The conductor must become prey to the orchestra. The conductor must squeeze himself
down to sub atomic proportions to facilitate the BONG BONG BONG of harmony within
the framework of action packed phenomenon.


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## MichaelSolo (Mar 12, 2013)

*just so*

Another taoist..
Hey, our cohorts are on the rise in here!

Yes, the conductor is the emptiness that makes the orchestra's music whole. I like this unexpected Laozi.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

From the sublime ^^^ to the ridiculous:


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

It is a bit disturbing to see what godlike powers some people here seem to attribute to conductors. I believe some rather large organizations of musicians have run quite successfully without conductors, however, and so it seems unlikely that they truly do possess the magisterial roles some seem to love to attribute to them.

A lovely egalitarian idea... but it doesn't work in the political sphere, in the business world, or in the arts. There must be someone in charge... a director... a conductor.

Have you ever attended an orchestra during rehearsal? I have had the chance to attend any number of rehearsals by the Cleveland Orchestra. The Cleveland Orchestra is certainly one of the finest professional musical groups... but I doubt they could pull together a performance of any great merit sans a leader. As others have suggested, the conductor is the individual who is in charge... who establishes the vision or approach or interpretation of a given work of music. One need only listen to various interpretations of real merit by different conductors. Furtwangler, Toscanini, Karajan, Charles Munch, Ferenc Fricsay, and John Elliot Gardiner all had different visions when approaching Beethoven's 9th. There is no such thing as the conductor stepping aside and just letting the music flow for the simple reason that there is no single "correct" interpretation of a work of music... not even that of the composer.

If technology could come up with an automated way for large groups of musicians themselves to come to agreement on and adjust balance and timing, I feel certain much of the conductor's work would be taken from him. Or her, of course.

Yeah... all we need is a drum machine and a good sound engineer.

Interpretation is more than balance and timing. Just as multiple soloists of great ability can offer forth brilliant interpretations of a single work (let's say Sviatoslav Richter, Angela Hewitt, Glenn Gould, Rosalyn Tureck, Roger Woodward, András Schiff, and Ralph Kirkpatrick with Bach's Well Tempered Clavier) and each of these interpretations are clearly different from each other... so the same is true of a conductor.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> From the sublime ^^^ to the ridiculous:


ah, god, i laughed at that one ...


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> It is a bit disturbing to see what godlike powers some people here seem to attribute to conductors. I believe some rather large organizations of musicians have run quite successfully without conductors, however, and so it seems unlikely that they truly do possess the magisterial roles some seem to love to attribute to them.
> 
> A lovely egalitarian idea... but it doesn't work in the political sphere, in the business world, or in the arts. There must be someone in charge... a director... a conductor.
> 
> ...


Hey, you're welcome to your theories, and I enjoy my own.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

There are facts, theories, fantasies... and the simple failure to grasp reality.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> There are facts, theories, fantasies... and the simple failure to grasp reality.


Kinda like auto-pilots. :lol:


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