# I've been asked to perform Cage's 4'33"



## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

I'm currently in a seminar called Contemporary Arts and Ideas, where we study different forms of art created since 1945. This next week, we're gonna begin our study of contemporary music (yay! ), and my professor knows well that I'm a music major.

Well, 2 days ago, she brought me aside and asked me to perform John Cage's 4'33" as an introduction for out class to the world of contemporary music. I agreed to, of course.  Now, the only problem is... how?

I haven't been able to find anything on the internet about how 4'33" is to be performed by solo flute. Any suggestions of how I will make it clear to my 15-something student audience that I'm starting a movement, or changing from one movement to the next?


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

The first movement is 30 seconds, the second movement is 2 minutes and 23 seconds and the third movement is 1 minute and 40 seconds. At the start of the piece, lift your flute to your mouth and keep it there until the first movement is over and then at the start and stop of each movement, drop your flute away from your mouth as if you were done playing and then put it back up again for the start of the next movement until the piece is over.


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## Xytech (Apr 7, 2011)

Sigh... this is not music


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

I recommend the Glenn Gould recording, in which takes 5'17" to perform. Gould explained that he used these tempos in order that the listener could clearly hear all of the inner voices in the piece.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

You are 'selling yourself short'. You are probably as skilled at _not-playing_ the guitar as most people.

Wear an upper garment that has hard buttons. Then proceed as _violadude_ suggests. Place the guitar on a stand beside you before the performance starts. When you pick it up to begin, be sure that the body of the guitar makes button-contact. (Do this subtly.) At the end of each movement, place the guitar back on the stand, and wipe your brow (blowing your nose might be considered showboating). Repeat the procedure for each movement.



[addendum: If possible, record your performance, close mic'd. The playback could be revealing - as Cage apparently expected.]


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2011)

Do make at least an attempt to stick to the thread topic, people.

Otherwise, Cage's piece is a bit tricky to perform, simply because of its multiple versions. Even the timings changed. (See Larry Solomon's essay on this to get a sense of what the piece is: http://solomonsmusic.net/4min33se.htm -- The note about the first performance might give you a hint about what to do (which would be just the opposite of what violadude recommended!).)

The Peters' score, which Solomon rejects (but which I don't think Cage did) is apparently nothing like the now non-existent original score and includes the note that "the work may be performed by (any) instrumentalist or combination of instrumentalists and last any length of time." (Here is where the timings are different, the first movement given as 33" and the last as 1' 20" -- a curious lapse of memory on Cage's part.)

Anyone who thinks 4' 33" is not music (or is at best a joke) could do much worse than to read Larry's essay in full.


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## Fsharpmajor (Dec 14, 2008)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Well, 2 days ago, she brought me aside and asked me to perform John Cage's 4'33" as an introduction for out class to the world of contemporary music. I agreed to, of course.  Now, the only problem is... how?


Allegro con brio. 

There are some YouTube videos that might give you some ideas, although all the ones I looked at were for piano.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I think one key to the piece is ambient sounds. Windows or doors or something need to be open so people become aware of sounds around them which they normally filter out.


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## Fsharpmajor (Dec 14, 2008)

violadude said:


> The first movement is 30 seconds, the second movement is 2 minutes and 23 seconds and the third movement is 1 minute and 40 seconds. At the start of the piece, lift your flute to your mouth and keep it there until the first movement is over and then at the start and stop of each movement, drop your flute away from your mouth as if you were done playing and then put it back up again for the start of the next movement until the piece is over.


I think it's best to make the gestures look natural and unaffected. If you overdo it, there's a danger that somebody might laugh, and that would spoil it.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

The task ought to be trying to make people become aware of the sounds around them that they usually ignore. Try that however you wish, but it's a peculiar thing to attempt with a performance piece as the lack of performance will have everyone focusing on how moronic the situation is.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

some guy said:


> Anyone who thinks 4' 33" is not music (or is at best a joke) could do much worse than to read Larry's essay in full.


4' 33" is not music. It is philosophy.


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## HerlockSholmes (Sep 4, 2011)

Make sure you use A415 tuning, just to turn it into an anachronistic joke.


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## Kopachris (May 31, 2010)

Hilltroll72 said:


> 4' 33" is not music. It is philosophy.


I agree. I apologize in advance for this slight derailment, but I feel the need to respond to some guy's belief that 4'33" is music. To me (this means that what follows is my own opinion--the belief that 4'33" is music isn't _wrong_, but it's not absolutely _right_ either, as we have no absolute definition of "music"), music is based on intent. All music, even non-program music, must have some sort of intent--a goal. Even aleatoric music is put together so that it fulfills some sort of musical goal. Cage stated that 4'33" was an exploration of non-intention. Therefore, 4'33" is not music. It may, however, be performance art.

As for how to perform it, I have nothing to say that hasn't already been said. Try to get the audience to listen to the sounds around them instead of simply sitting/standing there. I think that raising the flute to your lips might actually be the best way to go about that, as it will cause the audience, in expectation, to actually listen for something. In trying to push other sounds away so as to hear what you're (not) playing, they'll be forced to listen to those other sounds.


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## Ravellian (Aug 17, 2009)

You should have suggested to your music teacher that you play an actual piece of music instead. Plenty of interesting 20th century flute music out there... like Piazzolla's _Tango Etudes_ for flute, for instance? Or better yet, Varese's _Density 21.5_?


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I recall at least one conductor ironically mopping his brow between movements so that might go down well. Perhaps even more relevant if you only pretend to do it and without an actual handkerchief?


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

Not again.

Where's the head banging against wall emoticon?


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Fsharpmajor said:


> I think it's best to make the gestures look natural and unaffected. If you overdo it, there's a danger that somebody might laugh, and that would spoil it.


those gestures would be natural.


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## GoneBaroque (Jun 16, 2011)

some guy said:


> Do make at least an attempt to stick to the thread topic, people.
> 
> Otherwise, Cage's piece is a bit tricky to perform, simply because of its multiple versions. Even the timings changed. (See Larry Solomon's essay on this to get a sense of what the piece is: http://solomonsmusic.net/4min33se.htm -- The note about the first performance might give you a hint about what to do (which would be just the opposite of what violadude recommended!).)
> 
> ...


Thank you for the link to the article, fascinating read.


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## HerlockSholmes (Sep 4, 2011)

Ravellian said:


> You should have suggested to your music teacher that you play an actual piece of music instead.


You know, I'm starting to think that this is a prank his teacher is playing on him.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

HerlockSholmes said:


> You know, I'm starting to think that this is a prank his teacher is playing on him.


I doubt it. Believe it or not, many music scholars actually take 4'33" seriously.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

some guy said:


> Do make at least an attempt to stick to the thread topic, people.
> 
> Otherwise, Cage's piece is a bit tricky to perform, simply because of its multiple versions. Even the timings changed. (See Larry Solomon's essay on this to get a sense of what the piece is: http://solomonsmusic.net/4min33se.htm -- The note about the first performance might give you a hint about what to do (which would be just the opposite of what violadude recommended!).)
> 
> ...


I have disliked Larry Solomon ever since I made the mistake to read his inane ramblings on why all of Wagner's operas were written for the sole purpose of advancing an agenda of proto-Hitler anti-semitism. Now I have another reason.


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## hawk (Oct 1, 2007)

:


HerlockSholmes said:


> You know, I'm starting to think that this is a prank his teacher is playing on* him*.


 ~Huilunsoittaja is a woman~ :tiphat:


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## HerlockSholmes (Sep 4, 2011)

hawk said:


> ~Huilunsoittaja is a woman~ :tiphat:


You know, I'm starting to think that this is a prank her teacher is playing on her.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Hilltroll72 said:


> 4' 33" is not music. It is philosophy.


But I can perform philosophy, can I not? 



Ravellian said:


> You should have suggested to your music teacher that you play an actual piece of music instead. Plenty of interesting 20th century flute music out there... like Piazzolla's _Tango Etudes_ for flute, for instance? Or better yet, Varese's _Density 21.5_?


I was thinking of that, only, I have to perform this Tuesday, so not much time to prepare. Also, Density 21.5 was written before 1945, and although the Tango Etudes would work, I don't have that music nor have I played it before.

So, I guess I'll have to have a stop watch, or hopefully a regular watch would work (something that doesn't make sound). As for raising the flute to my lips, I don't think a flutist would do that in a real tacet (it's actually a bit of work to keep your hands up that long, although I'm quite use to it). So, I think the gestures will be thus: I'll have the flute on my lap in between movements, and during the movements, I'll actually hold it in my hands diagonally across me. I may just throw in a little flare with drinking some water from a bottle in between.

Personally, this is gonna be really hard to perform for fear of laughing. So, I'll need to have my game face on, not look at audience in the eye, etc.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> [...]
> Personally, this is gonna be really hard to perform for fear of laughing. So, I'll need to have my game face on, not look at audience in the eye, etc.


Game face, for sure. There is pretty good evidence that Cage did not consider _4' 33"_ to be a joke. As several people have suggested, the audience is expected to hear sounds that it normally 'shuts out'.

I suggested switching to a guitar - and close micing it - because (like a piano) a guitar can resonate in response to ambient noise, and seem to 'tune' the noise. The audience at your 'recital' won't hear those resonances (though you might), unless you play back the recording.

[I suspect that the procedure I'm suggesting introduces complications you are uninterested in enduring. I (and probably Mr. Cage, wherever he is) understand.]



Oops, forgot to mention - leave a door and a window open if possible. Increases the ambiance.


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## fartwriggler (Aug 27, 2011)

Play it as loudly as possible....


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> I'm currently in a seminar called Contemporary Arts and Ideas, where we study different forms of art created since 1945. This next week, we're gonna begin our study of contemporary music (yay! ), and my professor knows well that I'm a music major.
> 
> Well, 2 days ago, she brought me aside and asked me to perform John Cage's 4'33" as an introduction for out class to the world of contemporary music. I agreed to, of course.  Now, the only problem is... how?
> 
> I haven't been able to find anything on the internet about how 4'33" is to be performed by solo flute. Any suggestions of how I will make it clear to my 15-something student audience that I'm starting a movement, or changing from one movement to the next?


i wouldhave responded by sayingto youyr teacher "oh please dont prostitute my muiscal talents by askingme to perfomr 4.33". or itf I had to perform it , i would fart in the middle of it.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Just perform it naturally, as you would anything. Some Guy's and violadude's post were very informative in this regard. I don't think it is "real" music but a conceptual art piece, performance art, or art as language, that sort of thing. Cage did write actual pieces for solo wind instruments, I know he did write a piece for solo clarinet, but I'm not sure if he wrote one for flute. But if you need to do it on tuesday just "play" 4'33." 

I don't really care about this piece, I'm by far more interested in his actual/real music, not just these types of conceptual pieces which I think are more ideas than music in themselves. What some people are saying, that it is "real" music may wash in a university amongst academics or theoreticians or people of the sort, but in terms of ordinary people, or the average classical music listener, that type of theoretical mumbo jumbo just doesn't wash most of the time.

So my advice to people is listen to Cage's actual music, all that I've heard of that has been interesting, stimulating even emotional in some cases. Read about him and read what he said (I will read Some Guy's article when I can), engage in his actual music and ideas related to music, etc. But just focussing on his concept pieces is not of much use if you are an average classical listener.

Just my 2 cents worth, not opening a can of worms, just steering the middle course, commonsense approach. This piece isn't controversial, it's been around for like over 50 years (HALF A CENTURY, guys!!!). Get over it, move on, and embrace the actual music of John Cage and the music of other post 1945 composers (as well as all composers that you can)...


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

There's a recording on iTunes for purchase. No seriously, there is.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Olias said:


> There's a recording on iTunes for purchase. No seriously, there is.


More than a recording, I would like to see a video of it. That would be most helpful to see the gestures.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

^^ There are several recording on youtube, with various instruments, even a whole orchestra. If you have access to youtube, jump on there & there should be plenty of videos of it, old & new...


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

I like how someone always breaks out in a coughing solo before the end.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Can't wait until I'm a senior, maybe 75 years old. Will be hitting up all the performances of 4'33", and one minute into the performance, loudly crying out "WELL WHERE'S THE MUSIC??". :devil:


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## Rasa (Apr 23, 2009)

I'm not sure why you'd want to prepare a piece like this in any way? The way it's supposed to be execute it is the way you execute it. Gestures don't need preparing, since it's all about the ambient.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

Here's a full video performance with commentary before and afterwards:


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Personally I think the most important thing you can do is make sure your audience understands the intent of the work before you perform it. If they don't, I don't know how they would view it as anything but silly. It's hard enough for people here to take the work seriously. I think a short explanation would help greatly.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

mmsbls said:


> Personally I think the most important thing you can do is make sure your audience understands the intent of the work before you perform it. If they don't, I don't know how they would view it as anything but silly. It's hard enough for people here to take the work seriously. I think a short explanation would help greatly.


I think I understand your point, but I disagree. In my proposal, that's what the recording is for - to reveal purpose to the audience, even after it mucks up the 'performance'. Examining audience reaction to the revelation should be the instructor's purpose for conducting the experiment.

Um, what is the nature of this class, again?

:devil:


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Hilltroll72 said:


> I think I understand your point, but I disagree. In my proposal, that's what the recording is for - to reveal purpose to the audience, even after it mucks up the 'performance'. Examining audience reaction to the revelation should be the instructor's purpose for conducting the experiment.
> 
> Um, what is the nature of this class, again?


If this performance were an experiment, I would agree with you. My understanding is that it is an introduction to contemporary music. I view it more as a lab where the students will directly learn or experience principles that were discussed in lectures or discussions.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Olias said:


> Here's a full video performance with commentary before and afterwards:


I saw that performance a while back. I was quite touched.

:tiphat:






Ah here is a good version! I can see everything that flutist is doing. I didn't see any variation of gesture on her part though.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Olias said:


> Here's a full video performance with commentary before and afterwards:


The funniest thing is what some YouTube user wrote as a reply to this video: "It's my cell phone ring tone.":lol:


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I must say I've learned more about 4'33" without all the usual negative cr*p on this thread than anywhere else (& there's been HEAPS of threads on this before here, trust me, I've been here for most of 2 years +). Interesting reading what people think when a specific thing is asked about this piece, eg. "How do I perform it?" Not the usual "do you like it," or "is it music or not?"

In a word, more neutral (but not neutralised or boring) discussions like this are better than the usual **** you get, with eg. people putting up youtube videos of 4'33" and Beethoven's 5th or something, inevitably saying the latter is "good," the former "bad," etc. I mean that's just stupid, I don't expect that from intelligent people, or anyone with commonsense. It's not even comparing the same genre, and it's like a totally useless comparison of a horse and cart with a modern car or something, or even a airplane. It's just absurd, much more absurd than 4'33" itself imo...


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

I've taught middle school band for 17 years now and I've actually performed 4'33" on two different occasions with my 8th graders. They actually wanted to do it after learning the concept behind it. The agreement was I would only put it on the concert if they took it seriously. They said they would, and they did. Parents still talk about it as a neat event. For me it was the only time in 17 years I had dead silence from middle school kids.


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## Rasa (Apr 23, 2009)

I hope one day, some members of the audience pull out harmonicas and start singing during the piece.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Some interesting links:
http://www.classicalnotes.net/columns/silence.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4′33″

There are loads of 4:33 on you-t, for instance













For a widened perspective, there´s the movement in Gubejdulina´s symphony "Stimmen Verstummen" just consisting of silence + the conductor´s movements.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stimmen_Verstummen
http://www.komunikacija.org.rs/komunikacija/casopisi/muzikologija/II_2/d14/html_gb


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## hawk (Oct 1, 2007)

Rasa said:


> I hope one day, some members of the audience pull out harmonicas and start singing during the piece.


If this happens I HOPE they are in tune with the orchestra~it would be horrendous if not!


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

I think one of the ambient sounds should be a CD player playing Brahms.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Ok, here's just an update for my performance.

Today, I got in front of my class (what a shame I didn't bring a music stand!), and sat in a chair with my watch in front of me. I went through the whole piece (my teacher so nicely made a program up showing a little bio of me, I'm archiving it), and ironically, I made a mistake  What did I do? I think in the 2nd mvmt. I lost focus, and put my instrument down at 2'28" instead of 2'33"  Cage would be ashamed, and I didn't make up the seconds in the 3rd mvmt. 

Thus, I brought 4'28" or something like that to my audience, who had a diverse array of impressions.  Some thought that I was just nervous and couldn't start, others were anticipating some really cool work (and thus disappointed that it was nothing), others were just plain mad, and others were more open to it. We had a long discussion about it afterwards, where I voiced my opinion about it too, that it's more of an experience than a musical performance, along with all the debate against that.


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## Fsharpmajor (Dec 14, 2008)

Congratulations. I would have loved to have been there to not hear it. 

LATER EDIT: I'm not being sarcastic or ironic. It can't have been the easiest thing in the world to do.

LATER EDIT STILL: Or not to do.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

So you performed it! Thanks to John Cage, you've had a very unique experience. I wasn't aware that there were movements, this thread taught me that.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Nice. I like the teacher's bio idea. And I hope you observed closely, and took careful note of your classmates' reactions to the 'recital'. It seems like an excellent opportunity to enhance your understanding of people. Unless your life's work will be done in isolation, the better you understand people... the better. If your avocation, or even your vocation turns out to be humanism, you have a leg up.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> ... I lost focus, and put my instrument down at 2'28" instead of 2'33"  Cage would be ashamed, and I didn't make up the seconds in the 3rd mvmt....


I think Cage would be fine with it and maybe even quite pleased, eg. in terms of you "improvising" his piece.



> ...I voiced my opinion about it too, that it's more of an experience than a musical performance, along with all the debate against that...


It's good, talking about the piece & giving an opinion on it shows that you're engaged with the piece, not just playing it because you have to. You don't only know the technical things but the concepts, history of it, etc. I think it's a conceptual art piece &/or a happening, it is an experience as you say but all pieces of art or music can be experiences as well...


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Ok, here's just an update for my performance.
> 
> Today, I got in front of my class (what a shame I didn't bring a music stand!), and sat in a chair with my watch in front of me. I went through the whole piece (my teacher so nicely made a program up showing a little bio of me, I'm archiving it), and ironically, I made a mistake  What did I do? I think in the 2nd mvmt. I lost focus, and put my instrument down at 2'28" instead of 2'33"  Cage would be ashamed, and I didn't make up the seconds in the 3rd mvmt.
> 
> Thus, I brought 4'28" or something like that to my audience, who had a diverse array of impressions.  Some thought that I was just nervous and couldn't start, others were anticipating some really cool work (and thus disappointed that it was nothing), others were just plain mad, and others were more open to it. We had a long discussion about it afterwards, where I voiced my opinion about it too, that it's more of an experience than a musical performance, along with all the debate against that.


Interesting. Thanks for the report. Did anyone ask for an encore?


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Interesting. Thanks for the report. Did anyone ask for an encore?


It's always funny that you're mister snarkypants when it comes to Cage's 4'33". I guess if I was there during a performance of it in Australia, and heard someone say "what the hell was that" after the concert, I'd come say hi and shake hands with the HIP dude.

At least most of us can agree that Bach's Motets and Cantatas are the bomb, Schubert's Leider never fails, etc. I'd probably be just like everyone else here and jump on the chance to attend a mass at the Vatican, as opposed to meeting Cage and watching him do nothing for four and a half minutes, or play with household appliances.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Lukecash12 said:


> It's always funny that you're mister snarkypants when it comes to Cage's 4'33"...


The jokes about this are wearing very thin indeed. But at least this thread has been somewhat more or much more enlightening regarding this piece, whether it's music or not, rather the usual exchange of *** for tat arguments over whether it is or isn't. I'm fully over that kind of thing, so the neutrality more or less of this thread has been pretty refreshing in some ways...

[EDIT - so they ban the word t-i-t here, it's blotted out in my post. Isn't that a bit prudish? I don't think it's a rude word and it also means a kind of small species of bird]...


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Side note: on another board, assassin came out as ******in......


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## Guest (Oct 5, 2011)

I wonder if "fire truck" would turn up as "iretr."


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Sid James said:


> The jokes about this are wearing very thin indeed. But at least this thread has been somewhat more or much more enlightening regarding this piece, whether it's music or not, rather the usual exchange of *** for tat arguments over whether it is or isn't. I'm fully over that kind of thing, so the neutrality more or less of this thread has been pretty refreshing in some ways...
> 
> [EDIT - so they ban the word t-i-t here, it's blotted out in my post. Isn't that a bit prudish? I don't think it's a rude word and it also means a kind of small species of bird]...


Seems like the banned word ought to be teat anyway - and banning it wouldn't slander little birdies.


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## Fsharpmajor (Dec 14, 2008)

Lukecash12 said:


> I'd probably be *just like everyone else here* and jump on the chance to attend a mass at the Vatican, as opposed to meeting Cage and watching him do nothing for four and a half minutes


Don't claim to speak for me. I'm not you. I would choose silence.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Fsharpmajor said:


> Don't claim to speak for me. I'm not you. I would choose silence.


I'm pretty sure that _Lukecash12_ misspoke his message there. Personally, I would choose the Cage only because it's shorter.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Interesting. Thanks for the report. Did anyone ask for an encore?


Haha! They did actually ask to hear me sometime. For real.  And I told them it was possible, since I am currently working on the 1965 Muczynski Flute Sonata, which is brilliant.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Sid James said:


> The jokes about this are wearing very thin indeed. But at least this thread has been somewhat more or much more enlightening regarding this piece, whether it's music or not, rather the usual exchange of *** for tat arguments over whether it is or isn't. I'm fully over that kind of thing, so the neutrality more or less of this thread has been pretty refreshing in some ways...
> 
> [EDIT - so they ban the word t-i-t here, it's blotted out in my post. Isn't that a bit prudish? I don't think it's a rude word and it also means a kind of small species of bird]...


Man, you've gotta soapbox on something like that once a day, huh? Oh well, you've got a point. People like to make rips at Cage, and then suppose that they actually posed a substantial critique of him in doing so.

By the way, have we discussed white noise very much here?


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Lukecash12 said:


> Man, you've gotta soapbox on something like that once a day, huh?...


I agree, I've been in a bit of a rant mode of late. I'm trying to turn it down now, it's probably just as tiresome as those f*rt jokes.



> Oh well, you've got a point. People like to make rips at Cage, and then suppose that they actually posed a substantial critique of him in doing so...


I agree again, if they stopped at saying "it isn't music" then I'd probably be fine with that, it's the stuff they continue with that I tend not to like or agree with. I personally think it's a kind of concept piece, a "happening," a thing questioning music in terms of Cage's interests in philosophy, etc. But if the people who focus on 4'33" said these types of things, it would show they know something about it & about Cage, but it appears that unfortunately they don't, they're just making assumptions...


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## Blanchard (Mar 3, 2012)

Olias said:


> I've taught middle school band for 17 years now and I've actually performed 4'33" on two different occasions with my 8th graders. They actually wanted to do it after learning the concept behind it. The agreement was I would only put it on the concert if they took it seriously. They said they would, and they did. Parents still talk about it as a neat event. For me it was the only time in 17 years I had dead silence from middle school kids.


I'm also a middle school teacher, and my students LOVE to "practice" this piece. For the first time, I'm actually taking it seriously and considering adding it to our concert program. I do feel that in a school setting, parents need to be informed of the piece's intent before it is performed. The presence of everybody's little brothers and sisters will bring a variation to the ambiance alone.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

If I was a school teacher, I would only let my students get dressed up in clown shoes and spritz each other with seltzer bottles if they promised to take it seriously.


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## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

I saw a Tuba player perform it - he used mutes occasionally (funny) - but the problem is (unless I'm wrong about the instructions) that Cage wrote for the piano key-cover to be closed by the pianist upon commencement of the piece, then opened again when the piece was finished (or maybe it's the reverse of that). Anyway, maybe you could come on stage, disassemble the flute and put it in its case, then reassemble it and leave when it is over. Just follow the performance instructions I'd say and apply them to flute as best you can. Good luck!



Huilunsoittaja said:


> I'm currently in a seminar called Contemporary Arts and Ideas, where we study different forms of art created since 1945. This next week, we're gonna begin our study of contemporary music (yay! ), and my professor knows well that I'm a music major.
> 
> Well, 2 days ago, she brought me aside and asked me to perform John Cage's 4'33" as an introduction for out class to the world of contemporary music. I agreed to, of course.  Now, the only problem is... how?
> 
> I haven't been able to find anything on the internet about how 4'33" is to be performed by solo flute. Any suggestions of how I will make it clear to my 15-something student audience that I'm starting a movement, or changing from one movement to the next?


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## Blanchard (Mar 3, 2012)

NightHawk said:


> I saw a Tuba player perform it - he used mutes occasionally (funny) - but the problem is (unless I'm wrong about the instructions) that Cage wrote for the piano key-cover to be closed by the pianist upon commencement of the piece, then opened again when the piece was finished (or maybe it's the reverse of that). Anyway, maybe you could come on stage, disassemble the flute and put it in its case, then reassemble it and leave when it is over. Just follow the performance instructions I'd say and apply them to flute as best you can. Good luck!


John Cage did not specify that the piano cover be opened or closed at all. The premier performer (David Tudor) did that on his own accord, and Cage _mentioned_ it in later printings of the work. For my performance, I plan on having the students pick their instruments up as if to play, then put them in the "attention position" when I conduct the downbeat.


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2012)

I was in a band that did this back in the late seventies--at my instigation, of course.

The band director signaled the beginning of each section with a cutoff and the end of each section with a downbeat. We held our instruments up before his signal, putting them at rest position for the duration of each section, putting them back up, briefly, between each downbeat and cutoff.

I was just at a performance of this piece that preceded a panel discussion. One panel member simply "started" the piece and then indicated the ends and beginnings of the sections. So it was us, all of us, "performing" the piece. Nothing to look at (except the one panel member who stomped out for a smoke and the two who passed notes back and forth), nothing to focus the attention. People didn't seem to know what to be doing. I emphasize seem. 

If my impression of that is correct, then too bad, as the hall was full of all sorts of interesting creaks and clicks and suspirations. Delightful!


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Xytech said:


> Sigh... this is not music


Sigh... you are without any idea of what this piece is about. It must be performed in front of an audience. It is beyond 'legitimate,' it is, by all reports from earnest musicians, daunting to perform, because performance it must be. Any who have done this tell me they learned invaluable things about performance itself which they brought back to the actual playing of music.

If you can not tell, I'm world-weary of this piece being the butt of jokes by the completely uninformed.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

waldvogel said:


> I recommend the Glenn Gould recording, in which takes 5'17" to perform. Gould explained that he used these tempos in order that the listener could clearly hear all of the inner voices in the piece.


Another sad butt-end joke from a person who has no idea what it is about.
The piece must be performed, live, in a hall and in front of an audience.

Recordings are utterly ineffective.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

some guy said:


> I was in a band that did this back in the late seventies--at my instigation, of course.
> 
> The band director signaled the beginning of each section with a cutoff and the end of each section with a downbeat. We held our instruments up before his signal, putting them at rest position for the duration of each section, putting them back up, briefly, between each downbeat and cutoff.
> 
> ...


Did the audience ask for an encore?


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

You should approach this as you would any other piece you have to perform.

You will find all the same challenges but for the one of the technical challenge of playing your instrument.

You will find out more about yourself as a performer and more about an audience than you ever would playing another piece of repertoire.

It is daunting. Even with the prop of your instrument, you are left to maintain a concentration and a presence onstage.

The piece forces an awkwardness on all, the intent being the more you don't hear sound from the performer, the more intensely conscious you become of all the other sounds in the hall, man-made, the ambient 'room noise,' etc.

As you have to command the stage from the moment before walking out to perform, you have to hold your own here.

As you signal the audience to pay attention, to 'inflect' an overall demeanor and ethos in the room when you do play, the same holds true with 4 ' 33.'' There has been rep I've played where it was probably more difficult to not burst out in laughter at the content of the piece, a musical joke within the piece, a relatively audience undetected gaffe on the part of someone in the ensemble onstage, an intrusive bit of noise or disruption within the audience, or some ambient sound drifting into the hall from outside.

This, if taken earnestly (and it MUST BE PRACTICED, or you will be horribly ill-at-ease onstage) will be a tremendous and beneficially informative performing experience. Practice, Perform, and do not think for one moment any of the time or effort involved on it is for nothing.

and, in all earnestness, break a leg, and / or should I say Toi Toi?


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

I think that people who subject audiences to stuff like this SHOULD feel ill at ease.


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## Blanchard (Mar 3, 2012)

bigshot said:


> I think that people who subject audiences to stuff like this SHOULD feel ill at ease.


I think that audience members who don't like this type of music should not go to a concert with this type of music.

I was just at a university concert last week which included John Paulson's Epinicion. If you don't know of it, it includes a long crescendo of a dissonant cord, in this case played by a band on stage as well as a band in the back balcony of the hall. The cord gets loud enough to really jar you and make you extremely tense, then releases into a soft, solo flute note that can be a sudden release of tension into calmness (excuse me for pressing a little of my personal sensations on you). In this performance, instead of hearing the soft flute note, it was overshadowed by a murmuring amongst the audience in response to the strong sensation felt by the preceding note. Now, I understand that a good third of the audience is comprised of parents who want to see their darling perform, and another third is made up of music majors just trying to get their concert attendance credit, but both groups should know proper concert etiquette. My experience, as well as that of others in the hall, was damaged by the audible reaction of others... in my opinion.

4'33" challenges that whole idea by bringing to light the reactions and natural occurrences that happen during a musical performance. Sniffles, dropped programs, squeaky chairs, the wind or traffic outside, and whatever would normally be ignored or not heard during an audible piece of music.

I didn't get 4'33" until very recently. My reconsideration for it was inspired by my umpteenth visit to a contemporary art exhibit with my wife, where I would normally scoff (inwardly) at things like Campbell's soup cans, a large canvas with a small red dot, or a toilet mounted to a pedestal. Heck, I'm still amused at seeing a wooden crate marked "fragile" getting a bunch of "Kellog's Corn Flakes" cardboard boxes loaded carefully into it. But, I'm starting to get the whole point.

Wow, that was a long winded response. I'll close with an anonymous quote: "Art is a conversation which you may or may not be a part of"


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

Be sure and do plenty of practice on your scales. It is full of them.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Blanchard said:


> "Art is a conversation which you may or may not be a part of"


Don't get me wrong. I get 4'33"... I totally understand what it represents. The problem is, a third grader could come up with something more interesting than that. A performer has an obligation to his audience. He should be looking to open communication with his audience, not poke them in the eye.


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2012)

bigshot said:


> Don't get me wrong. I get 4'33"... I totally understand what it represents.


Apparently not.


bigshot said:


> The problem is, a third grader could come up with something more interesting than that.


You don't find auditorium sounds interesting?


bigshot said:


> A performer has an obligation to his audience. He should be looking to open communication with his audience, not poke them in the eye.


Not sure about that whole "obligation" thing. Everyone has roles to play. Performer, composer, listener. Everyone has something to do.

The balances shift from piece to piece, with more responsibility falling on the listener in _4'33"_ than in _Eine kleine Nachtmusik,_ may be.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Here's a question I never thought of before. Cage's 4'33" is about the ambient noise in the hall. Is it clear that he believed the sounds heard should _only_ be essentially what would normally be heard if the instrumental sounds were eliminated? In other words if two people began talking or someone whistled a tune, would that violate Cage's desires for the piece?


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Sit in a park or a bus stop or anywhere I like. I can experience _4'33"_ until I pervert my listening senses to no end. Bliss!


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

mmsbls said:


> Here's a question I never thought of before. Cage's 4'33" is about the ambient noise in the hall. Is it clear that he believed the sounds heard should _only_ be essentially what would normally be heard if the instrumental sounds were eliminated? In other words if two people began talking or someone whistled a tune, would that violate Cage's desires for the piece?


Anything you might hear! So long as the musicians sit there for the duration in silence. So if I farted loudly in the audience, then that would be part of that particular unique experience.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

some guy said:


> Not sure about that whole "obligation" thing.


A performer has the obligation to have something worthwhile to perform, the skill to be able to perform it, and enough respect for the audience to want to give them his best effort. When an audience gathers to see a performance, they expect it to be accomplished- something that requires the skill and insight of a talented performer to present. They don't want to just see any old person walk out and do nothing.

Teaching students that it's "fun" to pretend to be a concert pianist by "performing" 4'33" (as long as they take it seriously!) is teaching them that you don't have to work hard to earn the spotlight, you just have to wear the right suit and have the right attitude. Quite frankly, if I had a child enrolled with a music instructor who did that, I'd get them in a different class so fast it would make your head spin. That's the equivalent of 4'33" in teaching- pretending to educate without passing on anything of value.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

bigshot said:


> A performer has the obligation to have something worthwhile to perform, the skill to be able to perform it, and enough respect for the audience to want to give them his best effort. When an audience gathers to see a performance, they expect it to be accomplished- something that requires the skill and insight of a talented performer to present. They don't want to just see any old person walk out and do nothing.
> 
> Teaching students that it's "fun" to pretend to be a concert pianist by "performing" 4'33" (as long as they take it seriously!) is teaching them that you don't have to work hard to earn the spotlight, you just have to wear the right suit and have the right attitude. Quite frankly, if I had a child enrolled with a music instructor who did that, I'd get them in a different class so fast it would make your head spin. That's the equivalent of 4'33" in teaching- pretending to educate without passing on anything of value.


Why does music have to be about talent and spotlight?


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2012)

bigshot said:


> A performer has the obligation to have something worthwhile to perform, the skill to be able to perform it, and enough respect for the audience to want to give them his best effort. When an audience gathers to see a performance, they expect it to be accomplished- something that requires the skill and insight of a talented performer to present. They don't want to just see any old person walk out and do nothing.


You callin' David Tudor "just any old person"? Huh? Are you?

(I'm gonna have to ask you to step outside, Mr.)



bigshot said:


> Teaching students that it's "fun" to pretend to be a concert pianist by "performing" 4'33" (as long as they take it seriously!) is teaching them that you don't have to work hard to earn the spotlight, you just have to wear the right suit and have the right attitude.


Whew! Where did this come from?

I do not know how to play the piano. But I have performed George Brecht's _Incidental Music_ many times over the years. I did take some piano lessons. I have taken cello and bassoon lessons as well. And I played trumpet for many many years. So I guess I could be called, if one were feeling gracious, a musician. And while performing _Incidental Music_ does not take years and years of traditional piano technique to perform, it does take discipline and seriousness (why the diss of seriousness?) to perform it well.

Same with _4'33"._ As you have read on this thread, it is not a piece that can just be performed by just anyone. Not performed well, anyway. It's easy to perform badly, but then what piece isn't?


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

some guy said:


> Same with _4'33"._ As you have read on this thread, it is not a piece that can just be performed by just anyone. Not performed well, anyway. It's easy to perform badly, but then what piece isn't?


I can perfom _4'33"_ as a non-musician. I wear my penguin-suit and sit on stage looking the part. Nobody needs to know I have zero music training. Everyone can then be deceived and give me the applause! It's that simple to be play well.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

I perform 4'33" every night for 8 hours.

Why does music have to be about talent and spotlight? Well, because when a performer steps out in front of an audience to perform, there is a certain expectation of him on the part of the audience. He can drop his drawers and show his *** to the crowd, but the proper reaction of the crowd isn't to sit quietly and listen reverently to the sounds of creaking chairs and coughs... It's to throw rotten vegetables at him.

John Cage's 4'33" is a test to see how much an audience will tolerate. It's the mark of what sheep a lot of highbrow concert goers are that they sit still for it.

As for students, any "teacher" who "teaches" students to "perform" 4'33" are doing their students a tremendous disservice. Students need to be taught that skillful technique and thoughtful analysis are the path to success, not pulling bad art school scams.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

bigshot said:


> I perform 4'33" every night for 8 hours.
> 
> Why does music have to be about talent and spotlight? *Well, because when a performer steps out in front of an audience to perform, there is a certain expectation of him on the part of the audience*. He can drop his drawers and show his *** to the crowd, but the proper reaction of the crowd isn't to sit quietly and listen reverently to the sounds of creaking chairs and coughs... It's to throw rotten vegetables at him.
> 
> John Cage's 4'33" is a test to see how much an audience will tolerate. It's the mark of what sheep a lot of highbrow concert goers are that they sit still for it.


Hm yes, I'm sure. If the audience's expectations were always met I bet we would have seen some amazing progress in the history of music. Even more so than there is now!


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

The best performers are the ones that strive to meet and exceed expectations, not the ones that try to find a way to slide by with a trick.

The reason that modern culture has been declining for the past half century is precisely because of post modernist cop outs like 4'33". There are equivalents in drama (self indulgent performance art) and fine art (Andy Warhole) as well.


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2012)

I go to a lot of "traditional" concerts, too, bigshot, with a lot of bigshot performers.

So far as I can tell, the "expectations" of the audiences are that the performers play things that are familiar, easy to listen to, and flashy. And that they sign CDs after the concert.

Renee Fleming just came to town. She's a pretty accomplished performer. She sang Ravel's _Sheherazade,_ which is a really cool little piece but unfamiliar to most concertgoers. It was received very cooly. After the break, she talked more and sang pop tunes, rather tepidly. The audience went wild!

Is that what you're referring to as meeting and exceeding expectations? I think you've just made up a situation in which the audience has unquestionably good taste and unerring knowledge of technique and the performers are spurred on by this to perform better and better. Nice dream, but it's just a dream. It's certainly not substantial enough to make generalizations about the decline of modern culture.

Ironically, the people who make up the most knowledgable and sophisticated audience in reality are the ones you slam for being sheep.

I can show you sheep. It's people who go to a Fleming or Perlman concert where neither performs very well, where both are clearly either past their prime or having a poor night, where notes are missed, entrances are flubbed, and intonation is shaky at best, and applaud them enthusiastically... for what? For being famous. There's some "decline of culture" for ya, with teeth.:devil:


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## Truckload (Feb 15, 2012)

bigshot said:


> The best performers are the ones that strive to meet and exceed expectations, not the ones that try to find a way to slide by with a trick.
> 
> The reason that modern culture has been declining for the past half century is precisely because of post modernist cop outs like 4'33". There are equivalents in drama (self indulgent performance art) and fine art (Andy Warhole) as well.


Oh, very well put. It is all cut from the same cloth. One thinks of the story of the King with No Clothes. Except in the real life version the King never does realize what is going on.

I know, lets have a baseball (or football or soccer) game where all the players come onto the field but just stand there for 3 hours with no one picking up a ball, no one doing anything at all. Just standing there. :lol: How many people would be left in the stadium at the end? Would there BE a stadium at the end?


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2012)

Truckload said:


> Oh, very well put. It is all cut from the same cloth. One thinks of the story of the King with No Clothes. Except in the real life version the King never does realize what is going on.
> 
> I know, lets have a baseball (or football or soccer) game where all the players come onto the field but just stand there for 3 hours with no one picking up a ball, no one doing anything at all. Just standing there. :lol: How many people would be left in the stadium at the end? Would there BE a stadium at the end?


How many times will the Emperor's New Clothes be referred to in a conversation about new music? One hundred billion? One gazillion bazillion billion times seven? And each time, just as germane as the last, i.e., not germane at all.

Has anyone who refers to that story ever read it? Does anyone actually know the point of the story?

_4'33"_ is making no pretense at all. No one is fooled by anything about it. It's about as straightforward and unduplicitous as it is possible to get. What you get is what you get. Nothing more, nothing less. No pretense.

Maybe you want your composers to have complete control over everything you hear. OK. Many composers would agree. (Even though that's a chimera, as everyone knows.) Maybe you want only sounds that someone has made up, that someone has arranged for you, in this or that order, the same every time you hear them. OK. Many composers would agree. Listen to them, then, and stop the pointless whinging about the composers who don't agree.

As for the sports metaphor, well, the point of a game is rather different from the point of a concert, isn't it? Besides, there are a lot of sports fans who feel about soccer as you feel about _4'33",_ eh? Nothing ever happens. No one ever scores. Boring!!


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## Truckload (Feb 15, 2012)

some guy said:


> How many times will the Emperor's New Clothes be referred to in a conversation about new music? One hundred billion? One gazillion bazillion billion times seven? And each time, just as germane as the last, i.e., not germane at all.
> 
> Has anyone who refers to that story ever read it? Does anyone actually know the point of the story?
> 
> ...


Perhaps people bring up the Clothes story because those people do believe it is relevant. And yes, I have read the story.

Also, if I am going to listen to a piece of music, I want to hear what the composer wrote. I do not want to put a Copland DVD in the player and have Pink Floyd come out. This whole conversation makes me start laughing just typing this. Cage is the biggest fraud in the history of frauds. I do not grasp how anyone can take him seriously.

Suddenly I am reminded of Gilbert and Sullivan. Remember "Patience"?  I think of Cage (and like that). God bless Gilbert and Sullivan. Just thinking about them brings me joy.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Truckload said:


> Perhaps people bring up the Clothes story because those people do believe it is relevant. And yes, I have read the story.
> 
> Also, if I am going to listen to a piece of music, I want to hear what the composer wrote. I do not want to put a Copland DVD in the player and have Pink Floyd come out. This whole conversation makes me start laughing just typing this. *Cage is the biggest fraud in the history of frauds.* I do not grasp how anyone can take him seriously.
> 
> Suddenly I am reminded of Gilbert and Sullivan. Remember "Patience"?  I think of Cage (and like that). God bless Gilbert and Sullivan. Just thinking about them brings me joy.


Well thats not fair to call him a fraud. Have you heard anything by him besides 4'33"?

He did write some beautiful pieces, like this:





so he wasn't a complete fraud if you want to think of him as one at all.


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2012)

A fraud is someone who gives you something other than what you already want.

Apparently.

The customer is king.


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## Truckload (Feb 15, 2012)

violadude, I just listened to the entire piece and my first thought was "what a shame to do that to a piano". My next thought was that a computer program could write better music than that. Does this change my view that Cage is a fraud? No, of course not. 

Cage was worshipped and revered in music school in the 1970's by the devotees of atonal music, and I heard many, many of his pieces. I participated in performances of his stuff on more than one occassion.

But on a happier note, have you ever watched a complete performance of "Patience"? I was never exposed to G&S while in music school but now I love them.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Truckload said:


> violadude, I just listened to the entire piece and my first thought was "what a shame to do that to a piano". My next thought was that a computer program could write better music than that. Does this change my view that Cage is a fraud? No, of course not.
> 
> Cage was worshipped and revered in music school in the 1970's by the devotees of atonal music, and I heard many, many of his pieces. I participated in performances of his stuff on more than one occassion.
> 
> But on a happier note, have you ever watched a complete performance of "Patience"? I was never exposed to G&S while in music school but now I love them.


Well, that is a shame. I think that piece I posted sounds really pretty. The timbre is really cool, reminds me of somewhere in exotic Asia. The rhythm and the theme are hypnotic I think.

No I have not seen "Patience."


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Although I have heard more than a few works by Cage, I have never enjoyed one. Fine - his music has yet to (and may never) resonate with me. But I don't see him in any way as a fraud. He never passed himself or his music off as something it was not. He was very clear about his view of music and his interest in sound. He wanted people to experience sounds in a way they had not before. I'm not sure how he will eventually be thought of, but I suspect it will be more for his work with sound and opening up possibilities than for specific pieces. I certainly an no expert so my opinion is not worth much along those lines.

I have come to view 4'33" more as a philosophical work than a piece of music. One does not have to hear it to appreciate it although, for some, hearing it could help. It makes what many consider an important statement about sound, and to the extent that sound is music, about music.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Oh dear. I wondered why this thread was started again and have just checked in to find out... Really now, you may not like a piece of music, but to call its composer a fraud should get you laughed out of the room. I don't know why this trollish conversation is being entertained!


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

some guy said:


> Is that what you're referring to as meeting and exceeding expectations?


If the performer and audience aren't connecting, beating the audience over the head with a good taste stick isn't going to accomplish anything. The performer better find some way to reach the audience or pack it up and go home. There's no reason to stand on the stage if you aren't interested in your audience.

When John Cage "composed" 4'33" he obviously had contempt for his audience. You can have it. I don't go there.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

bigshot said:


> When John Cage "composed" 4'33" he obviously had contempt for his audience. You can have it. I don't go there.


That is a serious leap in logic man. John Cage was just trying to present a new idea to the audience. Why do you think he had contempt for them? Just because they were expecting sound and were surprised with silence?


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Truckload said:


> Cage is the biggest fraud in the history of frauds.


No, that honor is reserved for Andy Warhol.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

mmsbls said:


> Although I have heard more than a few works by Cage, I have never enjoyed one. Fine - his music has yet to (and may never) resonate with me. But I don't see him in any way as a fraud. He never passed himself or his music off as something it was not. He was very clear about his view of music and his interest in sound. He wanted people to experience sounds in a way they had not before. I'm not sure how he will eventually be thought of, but I suspect it will be more for his work with sound and opening up possibilities than for specific pieces. I certainly an no expert so my opinion is not worth much along those lines.
> 
> I have come to view 4'33" more as a philosophical work than a piece of music. One does not have to hear it to appreciate it although, for some, hearing it could help. It makes what many consider an important statement about sound, and to the extent that sound is music, about music.


Great post mmsbls. It's good to hear from someone who is logical about their dislike of Cage's music.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

violadude said:


> That is a serious leap in logic man. John Cage was just trying to present a new idea to the audience. Why do you think he had contempt for them? Just because they were expecting sound and were surprised with silence?


He wanted to see what he could get away with... Cheshire Cat grin and straight faced verbal justifications and all. Remember, the story of the Emperor's New Clothes isn't about the emperor. It's about the foolishness of the audience.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

bigshot said:


> He wanted to see what he could get away with... Cheshire Cat grin and straight faced verbal justifications and all. Remember, the story of the Emperor's New Clothes isn't about the emperor. It's about the foolishness of the audience.


Ya...but you don't have any proof of this do you? You can't just go around talking about people's secret motives without any proof of them. Just because you've got a feeling about his personality doesn't make it true. Plus, why do you assume that none of the audience members made a connection with 4'33" It's quite possible that a number did. You just don't know. You are making assumptions left and right based on nothing but your own paranoia.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

4'33" is a conceptual art piece, not a conventional piece of music. But if you want to talk/read about his actual music on this forum, go to Cage's composer guestbook, HERE. I have put there, if I remember well, a review and clip of a fav Cage work of mine,Credo in Us, which I think is great & a lot of fun.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

What people seem to miss here is that there _is_ an audience for 4'33'' and similar pieces.

Guess what, a _lot_ of people in this world think Beethoven is absolute crap. If they came to you and said, "Beethoven absolutely sucked, and it was his fault for not engaging better with the audience" what would you say? Probably something along the lines that he was a great musician who _is_ loved by a lot of people. Well Cage is too. _You_ are not the audience, so do not demand that a composer comes to _you_ - all people are, and some people like Cage. Get over it.


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## Truckload (Feb 15, 2012)

Polednice said:


> Oh dear. I wondered why this thread was started again and have just checked in to find out... Really now, you may not like a piece of music, but to call its composer a fraud should get you laughed out of the room. I don't know why this trollish conversation is being entertained!


If 433 does not make him a fraud, (come now, a piece of music with no music?) then I suppose no one could ever be called a fraud in your view?

By the way, anyone who calls a fellow music lover a troll should be laughed out of the room. Don't you agree?


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## Truckload (Feb 15, 2012)

bigshot said:


> He wanted to see what he could get away with... Cheshire Cat grin and straight faced verbal justifications and all. Remember, the story of the Emperor's New Clothes isn't about the emperor. It's about the foolishness of the audience.


Exactly! I'll bet bigshot if you know the Gilbert & Sullivan "Patience" that you see why I bring that into the "mix" as well.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Truckload said:


> If 433 does not make him a fraud, (come now, a piece of music with no music?) then I suppose no one could ever be called a fraud in your view?
> 
> By the way, anyone who calls a fellow music lover a troll should be laughed out of the room. Don't you agree?


You know, whether or not John Cage set out to be a fraud is pretty irrelevant. He to some greater or lesser degree he influenced the way people thought about music and there are people who enjoy his pieces. If there are people who like his pieces and respect him as a composer does it really matter what his motivation for writing 4'33" was? What if we found out Beethoven wrote the 9th symphony to see how ridiculously grand he could make a piece and get away with it? Would that take away from your enjoyment of the piece?


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## Truckload (Feb 15, 2012)

Well enough fun for one discussion. Sometimes it takes many years for someone to see things in a different way. I know it did for me. So not much point in continueing to beat this old horse. I wrote a lot of atonal music 35 years ago (God forgive me) and there were similar discussions going on at that time. Very similar. In fact it is almost spooky. Except back then I was pro avant-guard. But each of us has their own path to folllow and follow it we must.


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## Truckload (Feb 15, 2012)

violadude said:


> You know, whether or not John Cage set out to be a fraud is pretty irrelevant. He to some greater or lesser degree he influenced the way people thought about music and there are people who enjoy his pieces. If there are people who like his pieces and respect him as a composer does it really matter what his motivation for writing 4'33" was? What if we found out Beethoven wrote the 9th symphony to see how ridiculously grand he could make a piece and get away with it? Would that take away from your enjoyment of the piece?


I agree, nothing anyone says about the 9th could diminish my joy in it. You made an awesome point. Would I love it as much if someone else had composed it? Yes, I think I would. You have made a very important observation. The music itself speaks for itself. The music stands on it own and is its own justification. If you feel that way about something written by Cage then that is fantastic!


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Truckload said:


> If 433 does not make him a fraud, (come now, a piece of music with no music?) then I suppose no one could ever be called a fraud in your view?


Don't be so ridiculous. It's not fraudulent - that suggests duping, deception, and contempt for the audience. It was an off-the-wall conceptual piece, perhaps one that few people like. That does not make the man a fraud, and if you took any time to listen to the composer speak about his work, you'd see a man with passion for sound, it just happens to be one that is expressed in ways you dislike.



Truckload said:


> By the way, anyone who calls a fellow music lover a troll should be laughed out of the room. Don't you agree?


No.


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## Truckload (Feb 15, 2012)

Polednice said:


> No.


No? you say no? Well I guess I better not laugh anyone out of the room then, even if their picture is a very funny looking little green piggy thing.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2012)

Truckload said:


> Well enough fun for one discussion. Sometimes it takes many years for someone to see things in a different way. I know it did for me. So not much point in continueing to beat this old horse. I wrote a lot of atonal music 35 years ago (God forgive me) and there were similar discussions going on at that time. Very similar. In fact it is almost spooky.


Including the guy who claimed to have written "atonal" music when he was young but then returned to the only true beauty of tonal music, I'll bet.

And isn't it just a trifle presumptuous to claim that writing "atonal" music is something that God has to forgive you for? For all you know, God prefers "atonal" music.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

some guy said:


> And isn't it just a trifle presumptuous to claim that writing "atonal" music is something that God has to forgive you for? For all you know, God prefers "atonal" music.


My thoughts exactly.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Truckload said:


> If 433 does not make him a fraud, (come now, a piece of music with no music?) then I suppose no one could ever be called a fraud in your view?
> 
> By the way, anyone who calls a fellow music lover a troll should be laughed out of the room. Don't you agree?


The elephant in the room here is that 4'33" is not music - it's a conceptual art piece, or a "happening." It's more about making people think, the philosophy behind it, than anything which can be captured in a music score. In other words, it's an experience in the "here and now," all that Zen stuff Cage was a fan of.

No big deal there, no need to get heated about this, on either side of the imaginary fence.

As I said in a post yesterday on this thread, which nobody responded to, that Cage wrote heaps of actual music, or what most people would call to be within the more conventional/accepted definition of music. My personal favourite is _Credo in Us_, but his piece that made a big impact on other more mainstream composers - eg. Lutoslawski and Hovhaness - was Cage's _Piano Concert_. It's quite an "interesting" work I'd say, quite wacky and experimental, again about the "here and now," but there's actual music involved (whether you like it or not is another thing). Anyway, this is where chance came in, non-determinism, which I think those other two composers integrated into their own music, which is more what I'd call digestible for the average listener.

Which isn't putting Cage down, but like other innovators before him - Wagner or Beethoven are examples - he was really his own man and kind of made his own era, his own category, he does not fit in neatly into any "box," the closest we have to him in the 20th century are quite different to him - Satie and another Californian, Harry Partch.


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## Blanchard (Mar 3, 2012)

bigshot said:


> He should be looking to open communication with his audience, not poke them in the eye.


That is your opinion, and a valid one at that, but many famous artists from the 20th century rightfully disagree.



bigshot said:


> A performer has the obligation to have something worthwhile to perform, the skill to be able to perform it, and enough respect for the audience to want to give them his best effort. When an audience gathers to see a performance, they expect it to be accomplished- something that requires the skill and insight of a talented performer to present. They don't want to just see any old person walk out and do nothing.


I have been paid to perform the 2nd trumpet part in Beethoven's 7th Symphony before. I played 20 or so middle range quarter notes of pitches requiring the same valve combination. Any of my 2nd year students could do that part justice, but it doesn't mean the audience didn't enjoy the sound I made with over a decade of experience. 4'33" is not doing "nothing". They are actively not playing. My orchestra will do specific things at the beginning and and of each movement, and although not technically difficult, it does require preparation and rehearsal. My students are starting to comment that this song is more difficult to play than some of their other songs, probably because it's not easy for a teenager to sit still during a controversial piece for nearly five minutes.



bigshot said:


> Teaching students that it's "fun" to pretend to be a concert pianist by "performing" 4'33" (as long as they take it seriously!) is teaching them that you don't have to work hard to earn the spotlight, you just have to wear the right suit and have the right attitude. Quite frankly, if I had a child enrolled with a music instructor who did that, I'd get them in a different class so fast it would make your head spin. That's the equivalent of 4'33" in teaching- pretending to educate without passing on anything of value.


They're not "pretending" to do anything. My students know how to play their instruments and this piece partially satisfies California 8th grade music content standards 1.5, 2.3, 3.3. 3.4, 3.5, and 3.6. Prior to performing this piece, they will perform compositions by Pleyel, Haydn, Del Borgo, etc. They won't pass the class if all they can perform is 4'33", just as they won't pass if all they can perform is St. Anthony Chorale. My biggest goal in teaching is to show my students that they won't get rewarded for nothing, and my students are realizing this as they find out I won't be happy with them just sitting there swinging their legs and looking around the room during 4'33".

If you asked to have your child removed from my class, I'd feel sorry for the child because you refuse to let him/her learn about ALL facets of an art form instead of just the ones you happen to like. I don't think I ever had a band class without a song I didn't particularly like, but I learned it and tried to understand it as best as I could. I hated when I got what I referred to as "aleatoric crap" in a band, but I sometimes grew to appreciate the piece and the emotions it conveyed. Heck, if I only took classes on things I enjoyed and agreed with, I would have never finished my BA.

If I were to ONLY teach 4'33" in my class, you'd be absolutely right. Adding it to a long list of experiences that includes Renaissance through Rock only enhances their scope of knowledge and awareness... and to their list of likes or dislikes.



bigshot said:


> I perform 4'33" every night for 8 hours.


No, you don't, and if you really think you do, you still don't understand the piece.



bigshot said:


> John Cage's 4'33" is a test to see how much an audience will tolerate. It's the mark of what sheep a lot of highbrow concert goers are that they sit still for it.


Wrong again, and Cage's intentions are well documented if you care to research before you spat your mouth off. It's a challenge to the question, "what is music?" Opinions will vary, and this was written to bring light to that, and the argument on this thread makes a great example. Rap, techno, Stomp... all things that some find musical and some call crap.



bigshot said:


> As for students, any "teacher" who "teaches" students to "perform" 4'33" are doing their students a tremendous disservice. Students need to be taught that skillful technique and thoughtful analysis are the path to success, not pulling bad art school scams.


Actually, I believe I have been doing my students a disservice for the last 7 years by NOT including a little bit of avant garde in their repertoire. I have chosen to neglect an entire genre simply because I didn't like it. Also, they are making quite a thoughtful analysis of this piece... more in depth than I thought 8th graders were capable of.



bigshot said:


> The best performers are the ones that strive to meet and exceed expectations, not the ones that try to find a way to slide by with a trick.


Name a famous musician who slid by playing only things like 4'33" and not by developing a set of strong performance skills first.

Anyway, I'm not asking you to appreciate this type of "art", but you should respect the fact that some disagree with you. If there weren't people out there who actually enjoy this stuff, we wouldn't be having this discussion today.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Blanchard said:


> 4'33" is not doing "nothing". They are actively not playing.


...and I'm actively not paying attention, which is the audience's equivalent of 4'33".

I went to art school at UCLA. In one of my 101 classes at the beginning of my education, a professor asked the class "What is art." the students blathered on and argued for a half hour while the instructor sat quietly. Eventually he stood up and said, "Right then. Now that we've gotten that out of our system, there will be no more of this. We aren't here to talk about art. We're here to learn how to create it."


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

bigshot said:


> ...and I'm actively not paying attention, which is the audience's equivalent of 4'33".


But you *don't know that*. It depends on the individuals in the audience whether or not they are paying attention.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

violadude said:


> But you *don't know that*. It depends on the individuals in the audience whether or not they are paying attention.


I had a dog once that would stare intently at nothing. He wasn't too bright.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

bigshot said:


> I had a dog once that would stare intently at nothing. He wasn't too bright.


You're so funny.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Thanks. I'm paid for it.


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## sah (Feb 28, 2012)

Looking in Google:

"pierrot lunaire" schöenberg: 877,000 results.

4 33 cage: 149,000,000 results.
4 33 "john cage": 2,550,000 results.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

My nipples have 20,700,000 results!


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

I like how this thread was resurrected, but that I wasn't.

:tiphat:

Sorry that I neglect this place so much, I just don't really have that much to comment on anything, and it can get boring. I've been here for a long time, so I see how pretty much the same subjects come and go. I wish I could add new insights and ideas for discussion, like I did with the music philosophy discussion group, but now I'm bored to talk there too. It's not anyone's fault, it just happens after being here for several years.


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## Dodecaplex (Oct 14, 2011)

bigshot said:


> My nipples have 20,700,000 results!


No, they don't.


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## Blanchard (Mar 3, 2012)

bigshot said:


> I had a dog once that would stare intently at nothing. He wasn't too bright.


Nothing as far as YOU'RE concerned.


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