# Classical Music and Genocide



## gino (Aug 3, 2013)

How to explain the love and genius of classical music with the genocide produced by Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia? Obviously the music did not soothe the savage beast nor did generations of culture prevent or stop the onslaught. Opinions?


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

Yup, and it's still not helping much. It's nice to listen to, though.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Yeah, but compared to the rest of the world, they also did a great job clamping down on any semblance of creativity in their artists. The ones who managed to survive in spite of these restrictions are wonderful, to be sure, but think of all those who were torn down by them.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Art cannot change human nature; nothing within our world can. Drugs can certainly suppress it, though. Anyone read 'Brave New World'? Perhaps a little 'Soma' would help tame the beast.


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

Most composers and performers of music did not advocate, favor, encourage, or otherwise advance genocide. That was left to others. I've always marveled at how the Shostakovich Fifth could both be a parody of the kind music a dictator like Stalin would like, while at the same time being exactly the kind of music a dictator like Stalin would like!


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Sociopaths (Stalin, Hitler) cannot by their very nature actually connect emotionally to music (or anything/anyone else). Thus, Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Tchaikovsky ... do not matter to such minds. As such, the cultures you cite, those designed by Sociopaths, treat music perversely.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

SONNET CLV said:


> Sociopaths (Stalin, Hitler) cannot by their very nature actually connect emotionally to music...


Stalin was a great fan of Mozart. He listened to a recording of a Mozart piano concerto (the A major?) the night that he died. He paid special attention to contemporary Soviet music and even wrote (or ordered) reviews in the press, as a certain composer found out to his dismay. That same composer won a Stalin Prize, however, four or five years later...

Hitler loved the 19th-century Teutonic repertoire and irritated his staff by making them attend concerts that they had little interest in. There is little doubt of the genuineness of his feelings.

Why do you think these people were sociopaths?


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

SONNET CLV said:


> Sociopaths (Stalin, Hitler) cannot by their very nature actually connect emotionally to music (or anything/anyone else). Thus, Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Tchaikovsky ... do not matter to such minds. As such, the cultures you cite, those designed by Sociopaths, treat music perversely.


I don't think Stalin or Hitler were sociopaths. You definitely don't have to be a sociopath to be evil.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

SONNET CLV said:


> Sociopaths (Stalin, Hitler) cannot by their very nature actually connect emotionally to music (or anything/anyone else). Thus, Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Tchaikovsky ... do not matter to such minds. As such, the cultures you cite, those designed by Sociopaths, treat music perversely.


I'm sure they've connected emotionally to plenty of things... Hell, they were willing to commit mass-murder for their ideas. Sounds pretty emotional to me.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Vesuvius said:


> Yup, and it's still not helping much. It's nice to listen to, though.


aYep: there is some romantic era trail-over cultural myth that fine art or fine music will improve a person or even change a person.

The fictional Lector Hannibal, psychotic serial killer and cannibal, loved listening to the beauty and order of the aria from Bach's _Goldberg Variations._ Didn't stop him or change him being who he was and what he 'had to do.' Fictional, but reflecting reality when it comes to bad people still spending time on beauty or with beautiful things.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

They were fakers. Obviously anyone who is a true classical music fan is a perfect little angel.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

PetrB said:


> aYep: there is some romantic era trail-over cultural myth that fine art or fine music will improve a person or even change a person.
> 
> The fictional Lector Hannibal, psychotic serial killer and cannibal, loved listening to the beauty and order of the aria from Bach's _Goldberg Variations._ Didn't stop him or change him being who he was and what he 'had to do.' Fictional, but reflecting reality when it comes to bad people still spending time on beauty or with beautiful things.


Our minds want to make easy generalizations so we feel like we have a handle on something. The human mind is pattern obsessed, so when there are obscurities, vagueness, or abstractions... it must fill in the gaps... even if it's with imagination.

You can kill someone with a meat-cleaver and enjoy some Bach... and maybe even be a great family man.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

violadude said:


> They were fakers. Obviously anyone who is a true classical music fan is a perfect little angel.


Really? Even György Ligeti fans? 

Dunno 'bout dat, dog.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Lope de Aguirre said:


> Really? Even György Ligeti fans?
> 
> Dunno 'bout dat, dog.


Come now, does this look like the face of someone up to no good?









On second thought...


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

violadude said:


> Come now, does this look like the face of someone up to no good?
> 
> View attachment 48651
> 
> ...


Perhaps...


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Vesuvius said:


> Perhaps...
> 
> View attachment 48652


I always thought this picture looked like Ligeti was trying to use the force.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

violadude said:


> I always thought this picture looked like Ligeti was trying to use the force.


Are you claiming he _couldn't_?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Beethoven's late quartets did this to him...










Then Bach did this.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Mahlerian said:


> Are you claiming he _couldn't_?


As he says in the famous quote, "I'm trapped between the bad and good side of the force, and I want to escape". Of course, good side= tonal, bad side=atonal!


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

PetrB said:


> The fictional Lector Hannibal, psychotic serial killer and cannibal, loved listening to the beauty and order of the aria from Bach's _Goldberg Variations._ Didn't stop him or change him being who he was and what he 'had to do.' Fictional, but reflecting reality when it comes to bad people still spending time on beauty or with beautiful things.


_A Clockwork Orange_. In Anthony Burgess's dystopian novel, the gang leader Alex leads his goons in brutal beatings, then relaxes at home to the music of Bach (or, in the Stanley Kubrick film, Beethoven's 9th).


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

Yeah I don't want to beat the dead horse here but I also don't believe Hitler & Stalin couldn't connect with anything emotionally and most likely weren't sociopaths (although they were decidedly mad each in their own way but different classifications of madness for both). Beethoven was Stalins favorite composer so he had something right... :devil: ... Hitler loved Wagner, there's no question about that and ultimately took pride in the great German composers for nationalistic reasons perhaps but there is a definite connection there nevertheless.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

gino said:


> How to explain the love and genius of classical music with the genocide produced by Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia? Obviously the music did not soothe the savage beast nor did generations of culture prevent or stop the onslaught. Opinions?


What it shows is that Western culture does not make people civilised. This is, in my opinion, the hardest, most disturbing, most profound, lesson to draw from the second world war.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Fugue Meister said:


> Yeah I don't want to beat the dead horse here but I also don't believe Hitler & Stalin couldn't connect with anything emotionally and most likely weren't sociopaths (although they were decidedly mad each in their own way but different classifications of madness for both). Beethoven was Stalins favorite composer so he had something right... :devil: ... Hitler loved Wagner, there's no question about that and ultimately took pride in the great German composers for nationalistic reasons perhaps but there is a definite connection there nevertheless.


It's not ly a question of Hitler, it's also a question of ordinary German folk - who all had access to Beethoven, Bach and Goethe as part of their education.


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2014)

PetrB said:


> aYep: there is some *romantic *era trail-over cultural myth that fine art or fine music will improve a person or even change a person.


Classical, surely - and I don't mean in the musical era sense.

It just goes to show, as has been explored in another thread, that music is an expressive output of human development, not an evolutionary input, as it has no significance either way in the psycho/not-psycho switch!


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Only in a certain kind of science-fiction story would you see the notion that an individual or species' moral makeup could be altered by repeated exposure to abstract patterns of sound.


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2014)

Nereffid said:


> Only in a certain kind of science-fiction story would you see the notion that an individual or species' moral makeup could be altered by repeated exposure to abstract patterns of sound.


Of course, it's possible that Stalin and Hitler could have been a lot worse, had they not been listening to Wagner and Beethoven!

What music did Pol Pot enjoy?


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

SONNET CLV said:


> Sociopaths (Stalin, Hitler) cannot by their very nature actually connect emotionally to music (or anything/anyone else). Thus, Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Tchaikovsky ... do not matter to such minds. As such, the cultures you cite, those designed by Sociopaths, treat music perversely.


Sociopaths have trouble empathizing with people, but mind you folks that doesn't mean that all sociopaths can't empathize. Actually, what is observed more is selective empathy, and sociopaths can even be capable of strong empathy towards a specific group. Connecting emotionally with music doesn't necessarily involve empathy so I don't see any reason why Hitler didn't have splendid emotional experiences when listening to his favorite composers. What sociopaths like Mao, Stalin, Hitler, and Kim Jong did was treat musicians and composers perversely.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Mahlerian said:


> Are you claiming he _couldn't_?


Sure, he may not have been a member of the Galactic Senate but it's common knowledge that Ligeti was a member of the Canted Circle. *_If any of you know what the Canted Circle is, I'm giving you huge brownie points for being a hard core fan_*


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Lukecash12 said:


> Sure, he may not have been a member of the Galactic Senate but it's common knowledge that Ligeti was a member of the Canted Circle. *_If any of you know what the Canted Circle is, I'm giving you huge brownie points for being a hard core fan_*


I loathe anything to do with that stupid movie. How such a piece of **** can capture the imagination of millions is beyond me.


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

Lope de Aguirre said:


> I loathe anything to do with that stupid movie. How such a piece of **** can capture the imagination of millions is beyond me.


Because it distilled the greatest myths and fables of good and evil from all cultures and plugged that distillation of good against evil into space. It also helps that it was truly original in it's use of special effects and it paved the way for other mindless cgi films like transformers...

That being said the originals '77-'83 are quite good and not ****... Hey it's all good though. Thinking a particular movie is trash is every persons God given right so carry on... I just felt compelled to stick up for the other side (which is fairly ironic because I'm not the biggest fan I don't know what the canted circle is Lukecash12... other than watching the initial films I don't follow up on the lore at all).

Anyway sorry for veering us so off course... getting back to it the OP was classical music and genocide, which I have to admit I wish was a little more specific it seems incredibly vague but nevertheless sorry for the cinema tangent... :tiphat:


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## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

Mandryka said:


> What it shows is that Western culture does not make people civilised. This is, in my opinion, the hardest, most disturbing, most profound, lesson to draw from the second world war.


When we see footage from any Hitler speech, his screaming seems completely ridiculous. We wonder, how could people have taking all this seriously? But then again, we have to imagine a time and a place where the barking and screeching and flamboyant dramatics of Wagner's operas were considered the pinnacle of culture. (And I love Wagner's music, just not the singing.)


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Mandryka said:


> What it shows is that Western culture does not make people civilised. This is, in my opinion, the hardest, most disturbing, most profound, lesson to draw from the second world war.


The second world war was so bloody precisely because it was fought by highly civilized, technically advanced nations. If it was fought with spears and clubs instead of submarines, tanks and fighter planes, the loss of life would have been much less.

And just what is it with the trend to associate classical music with all kinds of morbid things? Not long ago there was a thread about classical music and being asocial, and now this...


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

SiegendesLicht said:


> The second world war was so bloody precisely because it was fought by highly civilized, technically advanced nations. If it was fought with spears and clubs instead of submarines, tanks and fighter planes, the loss of life would have been much less.
> 
> And just what is it with the trend to associate classical music with all kinds of morbid things? Not long ago there was a thread about classical music and being asocial, and now this...


Human beings were never civilized; we are the exact opposite. We've never stopped violating and killing each other. Technology ultimately serves to enhance our barbarity.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Lope de Aguirre said:


> Human beings were never civilized; we are the exact opposite, otherwise why do we continue violating and killing each other. Technology ultimately serves to enhance our barbarity.


I'm a human being and I didn't kill nor rape anybody. I use my computer to solve nasty integrals.

Don't put me in your hate bag, I have nothing to do with those awful things you mention.

Extreme misanthropy is a silly position, if you ask me.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

aleazk said:


> I'm a human being and I didn't kill nor rape anybody. I use my computer to solve nasty integrals.
> 
> Don't put me in your hate bag, I have nothing to do with those awful things you mention.
> 
> Extreme misanthropy is a silly position, if you ask me.


Then I guess you're part of of better race, aleazk.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Lope de Aguirre said:


> Human beings were never civilized; we are the exact opposite. We've never stopped violating and killing each other. Technology ultimately serves to enhance our barbarity.


It seems very obvious (to me) that humans are partially civilized. Thus the striking decline in the rates of all sorts of violence over the past several centuries -- violence against women, children, animals, and each other. See Pinker's book for the statistics and analysis.

http://www.amazon.com/Better-Angels...08053181&sr=1-1&keywords=pinker+better+angels

Civilizing man is like socializing a child: difficult, gradual, and often uncertain. But can you imagine what a baby, self-centered, demanding, and (within its powers) violent would be like grown-up yet unchanged? It would soon be apparent why it was such a good idea to make them so small.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Lope de Aguirre said:


> Then I guess you're part of of better race, aleazk.


Well, when I was 4, a psychiatrist told my mother exactly that after some tests (I can't remember the tests, though, one was a puzzle I think). :lol:


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Civilized people can do awful things (particularly in war situations), it's a psychological phenomenon. This was studied in a famous experiment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Milgram_Experiment

btw, I'm just posting this in order to show that things are quite more complicated than a 'civilized-uncivilized' dichotomy.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

aleazk, good to see mention of the Milgram experiment, which is quite famous. I very much doubt that if it were repeated today (which may be impossible) the results would be much different. But a question: Can the blind trust of "authority" be related to being "civilized", either one way or the other?

In the case of the world in general, there has been a trend to allow governments a monopoly on violence. On the one hand, this seems to have resulted in a less violent world, based on rates of various sorts of violence. On the other hand, we are certainly "trusting authority" to commit violence on our behalves. A puzzle...


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

Still waiting for a Great Mass Murder in C minor.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

KenOC said:


> But a question: Can the blind trust of "authority" be related to being "civilized", either one way or the other?


But I think it's more complicated than just a 'blind trust of "authority"' from the subject's part. I think that, initially, the subject certainly does have a respect for authority, but it's not necessarily 'blind', the subject can have initially some objections (coming from his 'civilized' self). What the experiment shows, I think, is that under intense pressure, some psychological mechanisms are activated (and this is independent from the degree of civilization of the subject, but an intrinsic psychological mechanism), and this is when this respect is transformed into blind trust of authority.

In any case, I think the experiment shows that there are still some aspects of our psychology that still respond to more 'primitive' stimulus. But that's not the same as being 'uncivilized'. And, also, we descend from a chimpanzee-like animal, what did you expect?

All of these misanthropists work under some romantic and ridiculous assumptions about the human as something special, that should be 100% good because that's our nature. Since they find that this is not the case, they now go to the other opposite extreme, that humans then are deeply flawed, 'evil', etc. Neither of the two options is real. The real thing is that we descend from the beasts and we are in our way to evolve. We keep evolving, that's the key.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Still waiting for a Great Mass Murder in C minor.


It was written when Cain slew Abel and has been playing loud and clear, all over the world since.


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2014)

I don't know about genocide, but listening to Tristan und Isolde has made me want to commit suicide.:devil:


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Wagner's German hero myths fed right into Hitler's plan of the superior Aryan Master Race.

Poor greedy, selfish, despicable-looking Alberich, the Jew, cursed for all time.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

violadude said:


> They were fakers. Obviously anyone who is a true classical music fan is a perfect little angel.


Most fans of classical music are sane people you know they are more calm compared to hip hop/heavy metal fans.I do not hear about fights & shooting at classical music concerts.I do read about rapes at concerts like rock & heavy metal.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

mtmailey said:


> Most fans of classical music are sane people you know they are more calm compared to hip hop/heavy metal fans.I do not hear about fights & shooting at classical music concerts.


You must read the wrong papers. "Enraged at the choice of tempi, a listener at last night's concert by the Boesbaden Symphony Orchestra threw a hand grenade onto the stage, instantly killing most of the violists and up to 20 other string and wind players. Unruffled by the occurrence, Maestro Klemp-Krausser continued the concert with reduced forces. Applause was generous and an encore was demanded."


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

hpowders said:


> Wagner's German hero myths fed right into Hitler's plan of the superior Aryan Master Race.


The Ring? treachery and mistrust? Tristan? Dutchman?
Wheres the superior German in there.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Still waiting for the much anticipated North Korean music committee's "March to the Gulag".


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Lope de Aguirre said:


> It was written when Cain slew Abel and has been playing loud and clear, all over the world since.


True and most often in the name of religion, that great peaceful consoler.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

hpowders said:


> True and most often in the name of religion, that great peaceful consoler.


Hey, you don't blame the gun for killing someone do ya'?


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

And universities, hospitals and charities.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Vesuvius said:


> Hey, you don't blame the gun for killing someone do ya'?


Not at all, but I find that it helps.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Not at all, but I find that it helps.


I often find it silly to put any responsibility on inanimate objects and ideas. It's the stupid person who made the gun to kill his stupid brother.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Let's kill all stupid people then -- that would eliminate about 90% of the world's population and the best part is, we get to keep our guns!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Vesuvius said:


> I often find it silly to put any responsibility on inanimate objects and ideas. It's the stupid person who made the gun to kill his stupid brother.


When I hold you in my arms (oh yes)
When I feel my finger on your trigger (oh yes)
I know nobody can do me no harm
Because 
Happiness is a warm gun, momma
Happiness is a warm gun
Yes it is.

Gee, that makes me want to run out and buy a gun! :lol:


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

I wouldn't be opposed to doing away with all guns... You first, though.


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## Guest (Aug 15, 2014)

KenOC said:


> When I hold you in my arms (oh yes)
> When I feel my finger on your trigger (oh yes)
> I know nobody can do me no harm
> Because
> ...


Er...you do know he's not just singing about guns don't you??


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

MacLeod said:


> Er...you do know he's not just singing about guns don't you??


Is that what your theory says? I prefer to believe it's a Walther P99.


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## Guest (Aug 15, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Is that what your theory says?


Even John himself, as reported in the Great All-Seeing All-Knowing Wikipedia, confessed that he wasn't just musing on the delights of a Walther PPK or an AK47!


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Lope de Aguirre said:


> Human beings were never civilized; we are the exact opposite. We've never stopped violating and killing each other. Technology ultimately serves to enhance our barbarity.


Dunno about that, things have improved a lot since WWI and WWII. The men who went in to Afghanistan and Iraq didn't experience anything like that, and that's a good thing because I'm sure it was terrible enough for them and I wouldn't wish anything like the Great Wars on anyone else ever again. Just listening to my uncles, grandfather, and great uncles talk about those wars terrified me and still keeps me up sometimes, I can't even imagine what it was like to hear that many people dying after combat was over for the day.

I'm digressing a bit here, I know, but you guys might be interested to know that I had the opportunity to visit Iwo Jima. Some of you probably know that it is a Japanese territory and civilians of other countries have to acquire official permission, although that is not so for Americans in the service or vets, because there is an American base there too (actually it's more like the Japanese and American bases are all one big base, we would all sit down to chow together). I got to visit with my uncle Clyde, who was a Merchant Marine back then.

When we walked around the summit, monument (btw, you guys might not know that the men on that monument aren't marines, they are actually all navy men), and flag raising site it was too windy to even talk to someone next to you, but immediately I felt I was in a very holy place. I can see now why it is considered holy by both the Japanese and Americans, it is wonderful there and peaceful now, with many great heroes resting there right under our feet. Aside from the mountain it was interesting to visit some bunkers, foxholes and trenches. Because of the significance of the place literally nothing has been touched and more often than not you can find soldiers still right there.

Now, just like at Okinawa there are roads named after Basilone and Hanegraaf, medal of honor recipients from Gaudelcanal and Peliliu respectively. It was funny because right in the middle of Basilone road at one point was a little vegetable garden.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Post deleted.......


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## Guest (Aug 15, 2014)

I can't wait to see when the next "let's read way too much into the links between classical music and evil human behavior" thread gets started, because these pointless pseudo-psychological threads never cease to cloud non-issues.

Hitler was bad. That had nothing to do with classical music. There is no hidden message in Wagner to explain the Holocaust.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

MacLeod said:


> Even John himself, as reported in the Great All-Seeing All-Knowing Wikipedia, confessed that he wasn't just musing on the delights of a Walther PPK or an AK47!


Right, he was thinking about a Luger.


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## Giordano (Aug 10, 2014)

Me thinks... 

Music is universally accessible and useful for any means. What determines the use is the orientation of the user. Knowledge and abilities are also neutral. A user's orientation determines the use of the tools at his/her disposal. 

Generally speaking, I believe most "classical" music was composed with the intent, conscious or subconscious, to uplift rather than to cause devolution. I further believe, it is the music of the masters (renaissance, baroque, classical) along with the works of other contemporary master artists and scientists that lifted human civilization from the "dark ages". The process took a couple of centuries, but it was successful. Wars in recent past were not caused by the works of artists. Indeed, the forces of war and violence work in the opposite orientation from that of (most of) the artists, even if those who promote violence and domination like to "appreciate" the works of artists. The negative force has always been active and is still working very hard to lead the world to another big war. 

Further, East-West is a false dichotomy. No race has a monopoly on art or violence. Historically, East Asia was too tightly controlled by Confucianism for a Renaissance to have succeeded in that region. 

Further note on the use of music: It is the intention of the composer that determines the energies of a composition. Obviously, one can intend to cause disharmony with music, and even consciously infuse into a piece energies to incite negative impulses.


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## Marcel (Aug 14, 2014)

The human being is very contradictory. Sometimes we meet persons who love to his animals but are killer torturers psychopaths. Do not be if it is the case of Hitler, Stalin and so many people that in the history were emblematic butchers but fine perverse lovers of the music.


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