# Opera Confusion



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

So I read about an opera by Pergolesi titled La Serva Padrona and was scoping out a purchase from Amazon. But I was puzzled because some of the CDs had about 20 tracks and others only had about 14 tracks. So I wondered if some were shortened and wanting the full opera I kept researching it. Finally I stumbled across the fact that there are two such operas:

Pergolesi: La Serva Padrona
Paisiello: La Serva Padrona

I finally settled on a great deal for a used CD of the shorter (and from something I read, musically more interesting) Pergolesi La Serva Padrona.

But these two composer names are not all that similar so why the confusion. Perhaps because I was speeding along at my usual rushed pace instead of slowly contemplating things. It does not help that as a kid the schools taught me the look-say reading method and I have zero background in phonics. I often mix up street names that have the same first letter. Guess the school did me no favor.

Anyway, it seems that it was not all that uncommon for several composers to do an opera after the same story. Perhaps there even is a thread on TalkClassical discussing them.


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## OperaGeek (Aug 15, 2014)

Florestan said:


> Anyway, it seems that it was not all that uncommon for several composers to do an opera after the same story. * Perhaps there even is a thread on TalkClassical discussing them*.


There is? Where is it?

Oh.

A few more examples:

"La Bohème": Puccini, Leoncavallo
"Il barbiere di Siviglia": Rossini, Paisiello (again)
"Don Giovanni": Mozart, Gazzaniga
"Turandot": Puccini, Busoni
"La clemenza di Tito": Mozart, Mysliveček
"Orfeo ed Euridice": Gluck, Fux, Bertoni and several others


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

There are many, many examples.

One of my favourites is this "Wozzek", not from Alban Berg, but from Mandred Gurlitt. A very, very nice Post-Romantic opera:






Curiously enough, Gurlitt also wrote another opera called "Die Soldaten"... only to be shadowed later by the masterpiece from Bernd Alois Zimmermann.

But if you go to Baroque opera, Metastasio was the more famous librettist of the 18th century. Composers wanted to use his librettos because they were almost a guarantee of success, so there were many operas using the same libretto from different composers.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

_Otello_ is another one. Rossini and Verdi.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2014)

You can't judge it, though, based on the number of tracks. That is purely arbitrary by the recording company. For example, go look at Bernstein DG Mahler recordings - they will break some movements up into multiple tracks, so that you might think that some of Mahler's symphonies had more than 20 movements based on the number of tracks. Better yet, go compare, for example, the Klemperer Mozart Magic Flute recording versus the Jacobs recording - different number of tracks, because Jacobs included the spoken parts, which Klemperer excluded for the recording - but still the same opera.

In other words, looking at track numbers is in no way a reliable way for judging or comparing any classical music recording.


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## OperaGeek (Aug 15, 2014)

sospiro said:


> _Otello_ is another one. Rossini and Verdi.


Those are both good recordings, by the way!


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

Macbeth - Ernest Bloch and Verdi


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

Oh, and of course Faust - versions by Havergal Brian, Sphor, Gounod .... as well as many others with 'Faust' in the name


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

Lohengrin by Wagner or Sciarrino


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

DrMike said:


> In other words, looking at track numbers is in no way a reliable way for judging or comparing any classical music recording.


 Right, I also added up the total time and was coming out 10 or so minutes difference.


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## BaronScarpia (Apr 2, 2014)

Well, the baroque era was dominated by composers who wrote opera to Metastasian libretti. Artaserse, for instance, has over 40 settings, whilst L'Olimpiade boasts more than 60. We can thank Gluck for ending that (not that I don't like me a Metastasian opera!).


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

French composer Ernest Reyer (1823-1909) composed an opera called _Sigurd_, based on some of the same legends that Wagner used for his _Ring_. It isn't a Wagner knock-off, though, and from what little I've heard of it its music is quite different. It was apparently pretty successful for a time, and Reyer was probably smart to wait till the year after Wagner died in 1883 to come out with it.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Two nice operas, that could be recommended for all lovers of Italian opera:

*Parisina (Donizetti)

*




*Parisina (Mascagni)*


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Falstaff - Antonio Salieri
Die Lustigen Weiber von Windsor - Otto Nicolai
Falstaff - Guiseppi Verdi


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Then there is the same opera, Daughter of the Regiment, in two different languages:

French: La fille du régiment

or Italian: La figlia del reggimento

I understand that these two operas, while the same opera and besides the language differences, are indeed slightly different. Am curious to know what are the differences.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Florestan said:


> Then there is the same opera, Daughter of the Regiment, in two different languages:
> 
> French: La fille du régiment
> 
> ...


No idea what the difference is, sorry! Did the French one have spoken dialogue instead of recitative, since it was written for the Opéra Comique? Anyway WS Gilbert apparently wrote a parody of La fille du regiment, called La Vivandiere- which I confused with Benjamin Godard's opera of the same name! Godard was the guy who wrote Jocelyn, of 'Berceuse' fame, for Victor Capoul. I don't know anything about Godard's Vivandiere except for the catchy aria 'Viens avec nous' which was recorded by Emma Calvé:


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> French composer Ernest Reyer (1823-1909) composed an opera called _Sigurd_, based on some of the same legends that Wagner used for his _Ring_. It isn't a Wagner knock-off, though, and from what little I've heard of it its music is quite different. It was apparently pretty successful for a time, and Reyer was probably smart to wait till the year after Wagner died in 1883 to come out with it.


I only learned recently that Sigurd was composed in the 60s and mothballed for a couple of decades- I'd always assumed it was written to cash in on the posthumous cult of Wagner! I'm sure you know most of the famous early recordings from the opera (which probably make up the bulk of all the recordings from it) but I'm going to post some links for anyone who's interested in great French singers from the turn of the century- I hope that isn't just me!

Rose Caron, the first Brunehild:






Maurice Renaud's famous creator recording of 'Et toi, Freia' (the first time I ever heard of 'Sigurd') Fantastic singing.






I don't know what happened to the creator of Sigurd but Reyer's preferred interpreter of the role was Agustarello Affre (good choice!) He didn't make his debut until his thirties and was a 26 year old carpenter when Sigurd premiered. He recorded a complete version of the Sigurd/Brunehild duet with Antoinette Laute Brun but the (heavily cut) version with Mathilde Comès is better.






'Esprit gardiens' was a popular tenor showpiece long after the opera fell out of the repertoire. Affre again:






Paul Franz in the same aria takes great fort tenor singing into the electric era:


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Florestan said:


> Right, I also added up the total time and was coming out 10 or so minutes difference.


Total time is most telling, though for a work of near several hour's length, a ten-minute differential might indicate no cuts, but slightly faster tempi for several of its sections.

The Steve Reich _Music for Eighteen Musicians_ is available in several recordings, I believe recorded twice by the same ensemble, while one listing reads 'track 1' -- the only track, the other reads tracks 1 - at least some number in the teens. Same piece, very near the same running time, no cuts


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Great Sigurds: how could I have forgotten Emile Scaramberg's record of 'Prince du Rhin'. One of my favourites, too!






I think 'Sigurd' has been blessed with more great recorded performances than any other now seldom performed opera that springs to mind- hence the fascination and the long posts! Sorry.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

^^^^ yeh, this is frequently the case with operas right up into the C20th - eg Szymanowksi's _Krol David_ (in Polish) is _Konig David_ (in German). Same thing happens through many composers back to Gluck (and beyond, probably)


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

SixFootScowl said:


> Then there is the same opera, Daughter of the Regiment, in two different languages:
> 
> French: La fille du régiment
> 
> ...


As a follow-up, from OperaNews:


> Translated into Italian, with recitatives replacing the spoken dialogue...


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

There are a number of differences between the two versions of Fille. The French one of course has spoken dialogue and the Italian recitatives, but there are also a couple of different arias in each version (the tenor has an extra aria or a different aria in the Italian version for example).

N.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

The Conte said:


> There are a number of differences between the two versions of Fille. The French one of course has spoken dialogue and the Italian recitatives, but there are also a couple of different arias in each version (the tenor has an extra aria or a different aria in the Italian version for example).
> 
> N.


So presumably it was not a simple translation of the libretto, but Donizetti himself actually reworked the opera.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

SixFootScowl said:


> So presumably it was not a simple translation of the libretto, but Donizetti himself actually reworked the opera.


Most of it was a simple translation, but there were some elements that Donizetti changed. (I guess because they were part of the style and tradition of opera comique.) The Italian version is therefore a hybrid (and that's why it doesn't quite convince).

N.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

This is a reasonable Italian recording.
( Serra a bit sharpish )


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Manon by Gounod, Manon Lescaut by Puccini and a different Manon Lescaut by Auber.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

howlingfantods said:


> Manon by *Gounod*, Manon Lescaut by Puccini and a different Manon Lescaut by Auber.


Or Massenet?

N.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

The Conte said:


> Or Massenet?
> 
> N.


Lol yes, I always do that with those two, my brain stores all knowledge about Gounod and Massenet in the same spot.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

SixFootScowl said:


> Then there is the same opera, Daughter of the Regiment, in two different languages:
> 
> French: La fille du régiment
> 
> ...


Then of course there is Verdi's Carlos in French or Italian and Rossini's William Tell same


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

DavidA said:


> Then of course there is Verdi's Carlos in French or Italian and Rossini's William Tell same


With both having been set to French libretti (and it shows!)

An interesting one is I vespri siciliani which sounds much better with the Italian and the French doesn't quite match the music in places. There is a rumor that Verdi made a lot of changes in the music for the Italian version and that since the performing materials of the French version have been lost the music of the Italian version was melded onto the French libretto which still existed. I don't know how true that is.

N.


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## Autumn Leaves (Jan 3, 2014)

Two operas called _Rusalka_ aren't even based on the same story (and the only thing they have in common is that the tenor is a cheat - even the nature of rusalkas is different in each of them!).

- by Dvořák





- by Dargomyzhsky


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