# The Piano Sonata after Beethoven



## Orage (Jan 1, 2022)

This thread was inspired by one posted by Second Trombone about best piano sonatas after Beethoven. The question is liable to many interpretations. But irrespective of the cycles and their composers, the most important question raised is this: what happened to the piano sonata after Beethoven? There is a book by Chapel Hill: 2The sonata since Beethoven". But without analyzing the whole book it seems to me that Beethoven's cycle had a sort of inhibitory effect on his immediate successors on the extension of this genre. Beethoven as it were, pronounced the last word on the piano sonata by this great cycle which spans works that can be classified as sonatinas to fully fledged 4 movement works in the classical styles, from semi programmatic music to abstract works, ending in works heavily dominated by variations and contrapuntal forms with only two movements. Liszt recognized the impossibility of continuing this trend and his only work therefore explored a single movement format with multiple sections. 
But the major body of sonatas after Beethoven especially as cycles appears to have been transposed from the Austro-German music world to the Russian and Soviet one. Over 150 piano sonatas have been composed by Russian then Soviet pianists in the last two hundred years and comprise classical 4 movement sonatas as well as many one movement sonatas. The major cycles include those of Scriabin (10 numbered sonatas) and continue with Prokofiev (9) Myaskovsky (9) Medtner (14) Feinberg (12) Anatoly Alexandrov (14) Ustvolskaya (6) Vainberg (6) Boris Tischenko (11) and still composing Ka[ustin at over 20 sonatas. In addition there are many other smaller cycles, notably Roslavets (5 but two are lost) Mosolov (5 one lost) and Smirnov (5) in addition to others with fewer number.
This is an important body of piano music that still appears to be a niche interest but is worthy of a much larger audience. It is also very seriously intertwined with the political history of Russia in the twentieth century. Other’s views are welcome


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## Tarneem (Jan 3, 2022)

this is a very interesting topic to discuss

Bernstein said that Beethoven was not an extraordinary melodist or harmonist (is "harmonist" a word??? frankly I don't know but hopefully you get what I mean [insert a shrug emoji]) but the special thing about Beethoven is the way how he structures his work, each note gets followed by the note that perfectly fit with it.

Beethoven's genius shines brightly in these three forms: *symphony*, *piano sonata* and *string quartet*

symphonies before Beethoven were pieces that follow a certain format, and it was mainly meant for the sake of entertainment, Beethoven (for the most parts) follow the same format that was basically established by Haydn, but he changed the essence of *symphony*, Beethoven didn't compose symphonies for the sake of amusement, he composed them to display his ultimate genius.

I have a theory that all symphonies that was composed between the death of Beethoven and the late romantic era do actually belong to Beethoven. because composers who lived in this period found that when they do compose a new *symphony*, they found themselves forced to follow the high standard of Beethoven's symphonies, and the listener would immediately compare between the *symphony* that he/she is listening to the symphonies of Beethoven, and of course most of the time Beethoven's symphonies come superior.

in the late romantic period the essence and the format of *symphony* has changed, thanks to composers like Mahler, Bruckner and Sibelius. the format of the symphony has dramatically changed, most of symphonies that was composed in this period didn't have only four movements, and also those symphonies that have four movements don't follow the fast-slow-fast-fast tempo. and the essence of *symphony* is not about following the high standard that was put by Beethoven, but *symphony* has became something deeply personal to the composer. nowadays a symphony is a *symphony* when the composer call it so. and no one has the right to argue with that. and I feel that nowadays a composer would refer to a work as his/her* symphony* because he/she wants to be identified with it.

I know your thread is about *sonatas* but the reason why I talked a lot about symphonies is to explain that *symphony* as a form is not owned by Beethoven any more and composers starting from the late romantic period has changed its format and (more importantly) its essence so the listener would stop comparing between their symphonies and Beethoven's.

what happened to the form of *symphony* didn't happen to the other two forms: *sonata* and *string quartet*. composers after Beethoven hasn't yet manage to change the essence and the format of these two forms.

so to answer your question: what happened to the piano *sonata* after Beethoven? what happened is that all the sonatas that was composed after Beethoven in reality do belong to him, because when you listen to a sonata (let's say composed by Brahms or any other composer) you would immediately compare it to Beethoven's sonatas and once again most of the time Beethoven's work comes superior

all in all,,,, what I said is my opinion (or let's say my theory lol). I know what I said may seem illogical or it might be utter nonsense. and from the bottom of my heart I do apologize if what I said is not properly organized, I'm working on my writing skills.


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## NicoleEB (9 mo ago)

In Charles Rosen's "The Classical Style", he occasionally compares the eponymous classical style (inseparable from the sonata-allegro) to romantic music. His book is superb and definitely worth reading for anyone interested in the classical period I think but, to maybe-butcher this part of his work, I appreciate his point of view that the sonata-allegro (and sonata form in general, as in keyboard sonatas) is just an archaic form by the time of Schumann or Chopin in their maturity. I think it's like asking, "what happened to the fugue after Bach?" Plenty of fugues were written after Bach and Telemann and Handel, but often, it was an exercise in compositional skill or a challenge to overcome, instead of a form which naturally emerged as patterns in the output of composers. It had ceased to be organic and began to be a form someone writes in to make something 'serious', almost 'academic'. Just my opinion anyway.


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## mossyembankment (Jul 28, 2020)

^ that said, Schumann's piano sonatas are among his best works


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

Tarneem said:


> I have a theory that all symphonies that was composed between the death of Beethoven and the late romantic era do actually belong to Beethoven. because composers who lived in this period found that when they do compose a new *symphony*, they found themselves forced to follow the high standard of Beethoven's symphonies, and the listener would immediately compare between the *symphony* that he/she is listening to the symphonies of Beethoven, and of course most of the time Beethoven's symphonies come superior.


Do you know "all symphonies"?
Beethoven's quality was a problem (for many, maybe not for all ... the same phenomenon can be seen in internet fora, where postings of high quality do not prevent others from contributing lower-quality-postings.)
Maybe the problem is not restricted to a very abstract level of "quality" of a symphony as a whole. As a matter of fact, even Beethoven did not succeed in maintaining this level, look at the finale of the Eroica.
One problem is to write a finale. The Eroica shows this problem after two heavy-weight movements - waht should happen in the finale? In #4, Beethoven reduced the weight of the first two movements, in #5 he used a new dramaturgy "per aspera ad astra", which allowed him to write a finale as culmination of the symphony. #6 is different again, drama (tempest) in movement 4 and resolution in movement 5. - In #9 he added soloists and a choir for creating extra weight.

I am not sure whether Mendelssohn wanted "to follow the high standard of Beethoven" in #5.
Or Dvorak #1. Or Draeseke. Would you argue that Liszt's Faust Symphony is following Beethoven? Or Gounod's symphony?

And what makes Beethoven symphonies (e. g. #8) superior to all later symphonies (e. g. Bruckner #8)?

So I am in doubt about your explicit and implicit hypoteses.

I agree that the symphony was a "public genre", as opposed to the piano sonata or the string quartet. So Beethoven addressed some other kind of listeners with a symphony than with a piano sonata.


Tarneem said:


> in the late romantic period the essence and the format of *symphony* has changed, thanks to composers like Mahler, Bruckner and Sibelius.


The format of the symphony has always changed. Before Beethoven we have symphonies with two, three, four movements, so do we after Beethoven. Regarding to this aspect, Beethoven is not a special point in music imho. And this is not only the merit of Mahler, Bruckner and Sibelius. Many, many composers went their own ways. I already mentioned Liszt. We also have Spohr (#6, historical symphony with movement in several styles; #7, a symphony for two orchestras), Berwald and others.

If we restricted our view to Beethoven, Schumann, Mendelssohn, Brahms, Bruckner, Mahler, Tchai and Sib, we would grasp less than 10 % of what actually went on in the 19th century. Not at all respresentative, 


Tarneem said:


> most of symphonies that was composed in this period didn't have only four movements,


What is the subset of symphonies that you are regarding when stating "most of symphonies ..."?


Tarneem said:


> and also those symphonies that have four movements don't follow the fast-slow-fast-fast tempo.


(dito)


Tarneem said:


> and the essence of *symphony* is not about following the high standard that was put by Beethoven, but *symphony* has became something deeply personal to the composer.


Could it be, just as a thought, that different composers had different ideas about the essence of a symphony? Mahler: A symphony is a whole world. Sibelius: A symphony, that is some evolutionary process.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Orage said:


> This thread was inspired by one posted by Second Trombone about best piano sonatas after Beethoven. The question is liable to many interpretations. But irrespective of the cycles and their composers, the most important question raised is this: what happened to the piano sonata after Beethoven? *There is a book by Chapel Hill: 2The sonata since Beethoven"*. But without analyzing the whole book it seems to me that Beethoven's cycle had a sort of inhibitory effect on his immediate successors on the extension of this genre. Beethoven as it were, pronounced the last word on the piano sonata by this great cycle which spans works that can be classified as sonatinas to fully fledged 4 movement works in the classical styles, from semi programmatic music to abstract works, ending in works heavily dominated by variations and contrapuntal forms with only two movements. Liszt recognized the impossibility of continuing this trend and his only work therefore explored a single movement format with multiple sections.


Chapel Hill?  That's not a person, it's the location of the U. of North Carolina. William S. Newman is the author of _The Sonata since Beethoven_, a book that's not specifically about piano sonatas, but rather about all kinds of sonatas and some chamber music.


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