# If you don't play, yourself, what do you listen for?



## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

I'm a musician. I've played all my life to the point that I honestly cannot remember a time when I didn't play. All my friends have always all been professional musicians.

The thing that I find is that classical music and jazz music are more "musician's music". Everyone I know who actually listens to classical music also plays themselves.

So I was thinking...if you didn't play an instrument, what would you be listening for? I mean, what things in the music are you listening to? 

when I listen, I'm keeping track of the form, I'm listening to the harmonic progression, I'm paying attention in repeated sections for differences in ornamentation or any other variations...but I have trained ears. How someone could ever pick out things like a harmonic substitution in a repeated section without actually playing themselves is beyond me. I'm not ever sure that is possible.

so since I never get to talk music with civilians, and I know there are people here who appreciate good music without playing themselves, I was wondering if any of you would share your thoughts on what you listen for/to in a piece?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I am very sensitive to intonation. The slightest variance, I get a headache.

hpowders
civilian


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

I play the piano myself but when I listen to music I don't listen to anything specific and I don't concern myself with technicalities. I connect to the music on an intuitive level and try to absorb it as a whole... sometimes this requires quite a few listens but I usually get there.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

@hpowders: that's interesting.... and you don't play yourself?

I wouldn't have guessed that. My experience has been that musicians notice tuning before the general public. We even have an old saying, "if you play the wrong notes, only the other musicians can tell, but if you play the wrong rhythm EVERYBODY can tell"


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Nate Miller said:


> @hpowders: that's interesting.... and you don't play yourself?
> 
> I wouldn't have guessed that. My experience has been that musicians notice tuning before the general public. We even have an old saying, "if you play the wrong notes, only the other musicians can tell, but if you play the wrong rhythm EVERYBODY can tell"


I dabbled in clarinet a long time ago. Since, retired. No formal musical training.

I just listened to the Borodin Trio performing one of the Brahms Piano Trios and I was getting a headache from the first violinist's pitch slips. Of course his old-fashioned portamentos didn't help matters either.

Extremely sensitive to intonation flaws.


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## Schumanniac (Dec 11, 2016)

For me its expression, harmony and the feelings music evokes for lack of better words(english is my third language). Professional terms like harmonic substitution are foreign words in an alien language, that has no factors to what im hearing, and the difficulty of a piece is similarly unimportant. Few things rub me the wrong way more than a marvellous, hauntingly beautiful theme, that soon digress into 4+ minutes of virtuosic display by a violin clawing at my eardrums, rather than build upon the original theme. Certainly students of composition and musicians can be exhilerated by it but its an inside joke, you know? I just sit on the sideline, nodding and smiling, until we return to a part of the conversation i can be a part of. Similarly i can greatly admire the complexity of Brahms more "absolutist" music but it doesnt resonate with me, and while i can listen to it, i likely will not return.The low notes of many works of his is incredible by itself even if you ignore the rest, that is surely a mark of a true master. Should stress i love Brahms works where he had something to "say", a story to tell, so we may avoid having me torn apart by lions.

But you do not need to be a musician to "understand" the emotions or scenery the music attempts to convey, though it may take a while longer. A lot longer in some cases, but the patience is always rewarded. Its not necessarily a musicians music. It is the appeal of classical music to say a million words without a word spoken. As a musician you will be appealed to a wider range of classical music than me, but the relatively narrow range that draws me, i will not enjoy any less. I can "see" beethovens 6th symphony as well. I can be privy to Strauss's life in the Symfonia Domestica. I can feel the struggle between life and death, the dark and light, in Tchaikovskys 6th. I can remember what it was like anticipating dreams as a child in bed trough Schumanns Kinderszenen, part 12. I have the wonderful privilege of not being able to analyze this type of music, only experience it.

Well, tried to put it into words, not sure that i succeded.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I played drums and guitar in my youth, but I can't identify many of the theoretical elements you mentioned. I just like listening to accomplished music and musicians. I liked jazz and classical as soon as I first heard it. I just finished listening to Schoenberg's wind quintet, and I have no idea what's going on, I just like the sound of it.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Do you like Shakespeare or Dickens? Do you write?

Do you enjoy major league baseball? Can you hit a fastball? (Insert your own sport here.)

Do you appreciate chicken cordon bleu? Can you prepare it?

Do you appreciate that you can get on a laptop or smartphone and post things? Can you solve uantum gravity?

. . .

I listen to classical music because it speaks to me in ways the BeeGees never did.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

Schumanniac said:


> For me its expression, harmony and the feelings music evokes for lack of better words(english is my third language). Professional terms like harmonic substitution are foreign words in an alien language, that has no factors to what im hearing, and the difficulty of a piece is similarly unimportant. Few things rub me the wrong way more than a marvellous, hauntingly beautiful theme, that soon digress into 4+ minutes of virtuosic display by a violin clawing at my eardrums, rather than build upon the original theme. Certainly students of composition and musicians can be exhilerated by it but its an inside joke, you know? I just sit on the sideline, nodding and smiling, until we return to a part of the conversation i can be a part of. Similarly i can greatly admire the complexity of Brahms more "absolutist" music but it doesnt resonate with me, and while i can listen to it, i likely will not return.The low notes of many works of his is incredible by itself even if you ignore the rest, that is surely a mark of a true master. Should stress i love Brahms works where he had something to "say", a story to tell, so we may avoid having me torn apart by lions.
> 
> But you do not need to be a musician to "understand" the emotions or scenery the music attempts to convey, though it may take a while longer. A lot longer in some cases, but the patience is always rewarded. Its not necessarily a musicians music. It is the appeal of classical music to say a million words without a word spoken. As a musician you will be appealed to a wider range of classical music than me, but the relatively narrow range that draws me, i will not enjoy any less. I can "see" beethovens 6th symphony as well. I can be privy to Strauss's life in the Symfonia Domestica. I can feel the struggle between life and death, the dark and light, in Tchaikovskys 6th. I can remember what it was like anticipating dreams as a child in bed trough Schumanns Kinderszenen, part 12. I have the wonderful privilege of not being able to analyze this type of music, only experience it.
> 
> Well, tried to put it into words, not sure that i succeded.


great post. If English is your third language, you did a fine job.

that is an interesting idea that you would imagine that a musician would listen to a wider range of the music. I tend to listen to a lot of guitar music, because that is what I play. My friend Dan listens to a lot of piano music because that is what he plays and his brother who plays violin is who listens to more symphonies. I wonder if musicians aren't the ones who listen to the narrow range?

also, its interesting that you talked about virtuosic displays that don't have anything to do with the theme. That's a good observation, and one that I'm glad to hear you don't have to be a musician to notice.

and that was a very nice description of "understanding" the emotions of a piece. Yes, I did understand what you were saying and I would say that you did succeed in explaining your experience. Thanks for replying, this is exactly the sort of thing I was curious about.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

MarkW said:


> Do you like Shakespeare or Dickens? Do you write?
> 
> Do you enjoy major league baseball? Can you hit a fastball? (Insert your own sport here.)
> 
> ...


hey, I grew up with a music teacher smacking me around, so I honestly don't know how normal people listen and get anything out of music besides the basic fertility rites

as a musician, I have a passing curiosity. I wasn't trying to say that if you don't play, then why are you listening to classical music, but I think the thread title might lead you to think that. Its just unfortunate wording, not being a writer myself


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

I am not a trained musician and probably wouldn't know a harmonic substitution if I tripped over one.
I listen to the music and see how I feel go from there

Haydn man 
Ready and willing to listen and learn


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Nate Miller said:


> hey, I grew up with a music teacher smacking me around, so I honestly don't know how normal people listen and get anything out of music besides the basic fertility rites
> 
> as a musician, I have a passing curiosity. I wasn't trying to say that if you don't play, then why are you listening to classical music, but I think the thread title might lead you to think that. Its just unfortunate wording, not being a writer myself


No offense meant. Juast being smart-alecky.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Haydn man said:


> I am not a trained musician and probably wouldn't know a harmonic substitution if I tripped over one.
> I listen to the music and see how I feel go from there
> 
> Haydn man
> Ready and willing to listen and learn


An "instinctual" listener. Me too.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

MarkW said:


> No offense meant. Juast being smart-alecky.


no problem...if we can't be a wise guy sometimes, then what's the point?


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Nate Miller said:


> I tend to listen to a lot of guitar music, because that is what I play.


I did the same when I was actively playing, and I know guitarists that are the same way. But I pretty much listen to everything these days. I love Julian Bream, Pat Metheny, and Jeff Beck, but I love all instruments, and all kinds of music.


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## Schumanniac (Dec 11, 2016)

To Nate Miller.

Well, they may have a more narrow field of interest depending on their instrument, but i imagine a musician will have a greater appreciation for a much wider range, think thats a more accurate description. Like Mendelssohn string octet, for example. To a layman its a cacophony of sound, impressive it may be, but to a musician who has an intricate understanding of composition, i imagine their enthusiasm for a 16 year old fusing together 8 string instruments together, as taking on a wholly differrent level. Cause they will have a greater appreciation for exactly HOW difficult it is to do with just the customary 4. 

P.S. How does one qoute on this accursed site? Tried the quotation marks in the corner and the site offers no guidance.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

starthrower said:


> I played drums and guitar in my youth, but I can't identify many of the theoretical elements you mentioned. I just like listening to accomplished music and musicians. I liked jazz and classical as soon as I first heard it. I just finished listening to Schoenberg's wind quintet, and I have no idea what's going on, I just like the sound of it.


This describes me pretty closely.

I played drums when I was young, but have a very limited knowledge of music theory.

But, I know good musicianship, and music with complexity and emotion, when I hear them.

I love to listen to some of the most challenging and complex music there is, whether in the classical, jazz or progressive genres, but I know very little of what is going on musically.

I guess I would also consider myself an intuitive listener.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

an "instinctual listener"....that's interesting.

for me as a player, let me ask you guys a couple questions....

first, if a performer makes a couple small, but obvious, mistakes...like buzzes a note, or has a scratchy tone for a second or something like that...does that detract from the whole performance for you, or do you take in the whole body of work?

second....there are some pieces that are very well known. Would you notice if a player left notes out that were in the score? do you know any works to the degree that you would notice missing notes in the middle voices or the bass line?

third....would you notice if a bit of time that was added? for example, if a note was emphasized by making it a bit longer than it is in the score, would you likely notice that time was added?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Nate Miller said:


> I'm a musician. I've played all my life to the point that I honestly cannot remember a time when I didn't play. All my friends have always all been professional musicians.


Sounds like you're not high on diversity.

As for myself, although I did play piano and clarinet when growing up, I don't look for anything in particular when listening to music.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

Schumanniac said:


> To Nate Miller.
> 
> Well, they may have a more narrow field of interest depending on their instrument, but i imagine a musician will have a greater appreciation for a much wider range, think thats a more accurate description. Like Mendelssohn string octet, for example. To a layman its a cacophony of sound, impressive it may be, but to a musician who has an intricate understanding of composition, i imagine their enthusiasm for a 16 year old fusing together 8 string instruments together, as taking on a wholly differrent level. Cause they will have a greater appreciation for exactly HOW difficult it is to do with just the customary 4.
> 
> P.S. How does one qoute on this accursed site? Tried the quotation marks in the corner and the site offers no guidance.


I hit the link at the bottom of the person's post that says "Reply with quote"

...and I see what you are saying about the musician having a wider appreciation. When you use the Mendelssohn example I can see what you mean. Whether they actually exercise their wider potential to appreciate I imagine varies from person to person


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

Bulldog said:


> Sounds like you're not high on diversity.


my musician friends are all races, genders, and ages

...but I just don't get you crazy civilians


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## Schumanniac (Dec 11, 2016)

Nate Miller said:


> I hit the link at the bottom of the person's post that says "Reply with quote"
> 
> ...and I see what you are saying about the musician having a wider appreciation. When you use the Mendelssohn example I can see what you mean. Whether they actually exercise their wider potential to appreciate I imagine varies from person to person


Apparently only works when i hit "Reply to thread", not replying a specific post. Thanks for your help  Now i wont feel like im adressing people in a formal letter anymore.


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## JACE (Jul 18, 2014)

Nate - I would counter your question with another question: _When you walk into a darkened movie theater and you begin watching a film, what are you looking for?_

For me, the answer is -- broadly speaking -- some sort of interesting experience.

When I'm watching a (good) film, I get caught up in the experience -- and there are about a million ways that it might happen. It might be the writing. Or the cinematography. Or the actors. Or the theme. It might be enhanced by the way that it's edited. It's all of those components (and a LOT more) that affect me simultaneously. And when it's REALLY good, I'm not thinking about _any_ of the particulars; I'm just taking it all in as a total experience, like life itself. In those wonderful situations, all of the thousands of pieces of the puzzle are completely secondary, buried in the background. They're only something that I might discover after the experience is over, when I'm talking about it with my friends -- or maybe watching it a second time.

Music is just the same. When music is great, I get caught up in the _totality_ of it. The individual components -- note choices, rhythm, tempo, dynamics, harmonies -- are secondary. All of those pieces of the puzzle contribute to the experience, but they aren't experienced as particulars; they're just pieces of the larger whole.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Nate Miller said:


> first, if a performer makes a couple small, but obvious, mistakes...like buzzes a note, or has a scratchy tone for a second or something like that...does that detract from the whole performance for you, or do you take in the whole body of work?
> 
> second....there are some pieces that are very well known. Would you notice if a player left notes out that were in the score? do you know any works to the degree that you would notice missing notes in the middle voices or the bass line?
> 
> third....would you notice if a bit of time that was added? for example, if a note was emphasized by making it a bit longer than it is in the score, would you likely notice that time was added?


If a horn player cracks a note, then yes I notice it and wince. If someone is slightly sharp or flat, then it all depends on what else is going on at that point.

If I know the work well, then yes I would probably notice some missing or added notes or even an unusual tempo change.

Would any of these impact my enjoyment - well that depends very much on the overall performance and is no different from how I may enjoy a vacation even if there were some glitches along the way.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

good example, JACE. And one I can relate to. I remember years ago I had a roommate that was an artist. He was also into film, and he would point out little details that I was oblivious to. Me, I was just waiting for the car chase, you know? 

I just hope people listening to me play aren't waiting for me to explode like in the action movies


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

Becca said:


> If a horn player cracks a note, then yes I notice it and wince. If someone is slightly sharp or flat, then it all depends on what else is going on at that point.
> 
> If I know the work well, then yes I would probably notice some missing or added notes or even an unusual tempo change.
> 
> Would any of these impact my enjoyment - well that depends very much on the overall performance and is no different from how I may enjoy a vacation even if there were some glitches along the way.


that's good to know. I always work on the ending of a piece a lot more than anything else. I believe that finishing strong can absolve you of a lot of sins earlier on.

the worst is botching the last bit of the ending, there just no chance at redemption


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## Bevo (Feb 22, 2015)

I started getting into film music when I was in about 7th grade. Luckily, the youth minister at my church and another player in the band who plays like EVERY instrument out there (with the ironic last name of Medley) Had had their degrees in music composition and music education respectively. By ninth grade I started thinking that if I liked film music why not give classical a try and fell in love with Mozart and Haydn. I then started get random ideas in my head and decided to ask those two at my church some questions. I began researching and have self-taught myself music theory. My early works are crap, but I've at least progressed a little. 




The closest thing to playing an instrument I've gotten, was that I was in choir. Anyways, the things I try listen to the most are the overall structure of the work, non-diatonic chords, and then modulatory phrases, which are what I still struggle with the most. I understand idea of pivot chords, I just still struggle with it sounding smooth. I pay attention to plenty of other factors, those are just the main ones.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

“There are two golden rules for an orchestra: start together and finish together. The public doesn’t give a damn what goes on in between.” - Sir Thomas Beecham

Actually I look on anything I listen to as being a form of journey - it does have a start, middle and end and there should be some logical progression between them. Even a great ending is meaningless if I don't feel that it comes logically from the rest of the performance. The last movement of the Mahler 5th is a perfect example, if the conductor doesn't pace it right the ending can be a let-down.


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## JACE (Jul 18, 2014)

One other thought about "untrained" listeners: Just because you can't _name_ something doesn't mean that you can't _experience_ it. One example: Many years ago, I heard Jimmy Rowles (on record) for the first time. He was playing with Ben Webster on an LP called _At the Renaissance_. During Rowles' solo, he plays cluster of notes simultaneously -- a chord, I guess -- that I'd never heard from a piano before. It sounded a lot like Ellington's band, all those delicious, strange harmonies. But most of all, it sounded GREAT. He just _crushed_ it -- like a line-drive to the gap in left-center. But he was so _subtle_ at the same time! Never shouting. Crazy. From that moment on, I was a Jimmy Rowles fan.

I couldn't begin to tell you what that harmony was called. I just intuitively knew that it was different; it may have even been "wrong." But all of that really doesn't matter. All I needed to know was that Rowles didn't play like anybody else.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

Bevo said:


> Anyways, the things I try listen to the most are the overall structure of the work, non-diatonic chords, and then modulatory phrases, which are what I still struggle with the most. I understand idea of pivot chords, I just still struggle with it sounding smooth. I pay attention to plenty of other factors, those are just the main ones.


I think we might be able to confer some sort of "honorary musician" title on you if you are listening that deep 

that's good work, just keep at it


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

I play the piano but not very good. However, being an audiophile, when I listen to a piece, the first thing is the sound transparency, usually I count the number of audible instruments. Then, I listen to the sound stage - width and depth. Then, I follow the melody, phases and articulation. If I can keep track of all these things in one session, it is a good one. Since there are so many things going on at the same time in a piece, keeping track of 3 things is a lot to do. I do not know how musician/conductor keep track of what is going one when they performing. I admire the non-verbal communication between them. I have a DVD of Yo-Yo Ma, Itzhak Perlman and Daniel Barenboim playing Beethoven triple concerto with Barenboim conducting Berlin Philharmonic. The exchange on eye communication and non-verbal language is amazing.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

Becca said:


> Even a great ending is meaningless if I don't feel that it comes logically from the rest of the performance. The last movement of the Mahler 5th is a perfect example, if the conductor doesn't pace it right the ending can be a let-down.




there goes the one thing I can count on when I'm in real trouble...I've got then ending secured

I hope you don't mind if I completely forget what you posted. I still have a couple performances to give this Christmas :lol:


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Nate Miller said:


> there goes the one thing I can count on when I'm in real trouble...I've got then ending secured
> 
> I hope you don't mind if I completely forget what you posted. I still have a couple performances to give this Christmas :lol:


Did I happen to mention that I am a music critic and will be covering those performances?


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Depends on the level of performance, but mostly I listen around inadvertent errors and listen to the music. For instance, way back in the Dark Ages, my high school chorus and orchestra presented Ein Deutsches Requiem. You can imagine what it sounded like -- but I mostly listened to Brahms magisterial work -- around the flubs, intonation and attack problems, etc. It's what I do -- and what I imagine composers would want.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

pcnog11 said:


> I play the piano but not very good. However, being an audiophile, when I listen to a piece, the first thing is the sound transparency, usually I count the number of audible instruments. Then, I listen to the sound stage - width and depth. Then, I follow the melody, phases and articulation. If I can keep track of all these things in one session, it is a good one. Since there are so many things going on at the same time in a piece, keeping track of 3 things is a lot to do. I do not know how musician/conductor keep track of what is going one when they performing. I admire the non-verbal communication between them. I have a DVD of Yo-Yo Ma, Itzhak Perlman and Daniel Barenboim playing Beethoven triple concerto with Barenboim conducting Berlin Philharmonic. The exchange on eye communication and non-verbal language is amazing.


there's another aspect of this non verbal communication that isn't apparent to the uninitiated. Some musicians just have a "chemistry" between them that allows them to anticipate each other to a degree that it is like reading each other's mind in real time.

there are certain players that I play 10 times better when I'm playing with them then when I'm on my own or playing with somebody else. That telepathic communication is why I always claim music is a language.


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## JACE (Jul 18, 2014)

Nate Miller said:


> there's another aspect of this non verbal communication that isn't apparent to the uninitiated. Some musicians just have a "chemistry" between them that allows them to anticipate each other to a degree that it is like reading each other's mind in real time.
> 
> there are certain players that I play 10 times better when I'm playing with them then when I'm on my own or playing with somebody else. That telepathic communication is why I always claim music is a language.


I think that's one aspect of jazz that's even more interesting than classical music. There's much more latitude for "making it up as you go along" -- since the composition is just the starting point.

Of course, that communication goes on in ALL music. But it's on an entirely different level with jazz.

My son calls it "Jedi stuff."


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

Nate Miller said:


> there's another aspect of this non verbal communication that isn't apparent to the uninitiated. Some musicians just have a "chemistry" between them that allows them to anticipate each other to a degree that it is like reading each other's mind in real time.
> 
> there are certain players that I play 10 times better when I'm playing with them then when I'm on my own or playing with somebody else. That telepathic communication is why I always claim music is a language.


Nate, I hope you perform well at the Christmas concerts. Maybe I am in the audience. Cheers!


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

Civilians hahaha, that's nicely put. Well I guess I'm a civilian then.

I'm not a trained musician, never had any musical education and I'v been listening strictly classical music for 10 years now (got tired of popular music in any genre).

I started with baroque music (mostly Händel) which to me sounds very easy, it's just very beautiful music with a strict rhythm that goes straight to my heart. 

When I started listening to Beethoven (and reading about his music) I started to get interested in the structures and got familiar with sonata-form and started to look for that pattern in other works, which is quite doable without a real musical education, looking for the seperate thematic material, how it modulates and its variations. From that moment my love for big structures and how things work musically began to grow. Then I heard Liszt's sonata in B-minor, first time it didn't really got to me but after a few hearings I discovered that he re-uses his thematic material and transforms it in very dramatic ways. Started reading about transformation and so on and started looking for that in other works etc etc etc..... I would've never really gotten into the Liszt sonata without first being drawn into it through the sonata-form of Beethovens work 

At this moment I'm at a point that I want to learn more about music theory and started teaching myself the piano and reading notes, not with the purpose to perform but just to learn more about music and indeed learning to listen more like a musician or a composer. I think it would be wonderful to listen to a piece and hear when its modulating to this or that key and so on....

I guess that for trained musicians (or people with enough knowledge of music theory) listening to music gets more and more cerebral (without losing the emotional side) with a far greater impact on ones mind. As for "civilians" as you call them it's more purely emotional, the hear something and just let it come to their heart without really an interest for the structure or stuff like that.

But in between being a trained musician and someone who totally knows nothing about music theory there's probably a lot of people who know some stuff about music-theory and are more aware of what's going on in a longer musical work and experience it in a more cerebral way then just let the music sink in.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

JACE said:


> I think that's one aspect of jazz that's even more interesting than classical music. There's much more latitude for "making it up as you go along" -- since the composition is just the starting point.
> 
> Of course, that communication goes on in ALL music. But it's on an entirely different level with jazz.
> 
> My son calls it "Jedi stuff."


you know, me and the bass player in my jazz trio have played together for nearly 20 years now. We have those sort of moments all the time. When people ask me how we do that, I tell them that its because I know his wife, I know his parents, I watched his son grow up and go off to college....and that is how we are able to play together like we do

the truth is that we've played together enough that I know what he likes to do, so when I hear him start an idea, I know where he is headed and I just meet him there. But people seem to be more entertained by the first answer, so that's the official line


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I don't play an instrument. I don't know what I listen for, or even if I do listen for anything, but I do know this: If I like it, I keep listening. If I don't like it, I quit.


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

Nate Miller said:


> an "instinctual listener"....that's interesting.
> 
> for me as a player, let me ask you guys a couple questions....
> 
> ...


First: 1 mistake is no problem, 2 mistakes still ok, 3 mistakes is tricky, definitely with a piece you're very familiar with. It totaly gives the impression that the musician doesn't really master the piece and as a result can't really give an interpretation. Of course it depends on the situation. If my 10 year old cousin would play a Beethoven Sonata with 20 mistakes I would still be completely blown away and praise her interpretation and as a result her mistakes would totally not bother me and even ad beauty to the piece. For professional musicians: no mercy :lol:

second: don't know for the bass line but a change in the main melodic line in a Beethoven sonata for example would be noticed.

third: sure, only sometimes it's interpretation and depends on which performances you're familiar with.

We civilians can be quite dedicated listeners so you pro's better watch out!! :lol:


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

Razumovskymas said:


> For professional musicians: no mercy :lol:
> 
> ...We civilians can be quite dedicated listeners so you pro's better watch out!! :lol:


I was afraid of that. this is exactly what keeps me locked up in the woodshed practicing


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Razumovskymas said:


> I guess that for trained musicians (or people with enough knowledge of music theory) listening to music gets more and more cerebral (without losing the emotional side) with a far greater impact on ones mind.


I am a pianist and music theorist, so I'm probably not supposed to post in this thread!  But let me sneak in just to say, yes I agree completely with this. Listening to music is an analytical experience for me, but I am emotionally moved as well.

Somehow my mind kind of "shuttles" between both modes.  The way it works is, I might hear a harmonic progression that tugs at my heartstrings--and then I immediately think something like "that was an emotional moment because of that augmented sixth chord." I enjoy making these rapid shifts between heart and brain.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Florestan said:


> I don't play an instrument. I don't know what I listen for, or even if I do listen for anything, but I do know this: If I like it, I keep listening. If I don't like it, I quit.


Yup. What Florestan said.


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## jim prideaux (May 30, 2013)

Without intending to appear in any way facetious, awkward or contrary in any way I find personally that the initial question is disconcerting in the extreme. I am competent enough as a bass player to have played in a few bands over the years, can even bang out a tune on my piano but I am not a musician in the real sense (my son is and I know the difference between what he is capable of and what I can do!) but music has been a fundamental element of my life and will continue to be. Why? What am I listening to exactly?......something which enhances my very existence on a daily basis, in good times and in bad, something which rightly or wrongly encourages an almost spiritual aspect to my reflection on life......pretentious?.....possibly, but the apparent implication that somehow I cannot appreciate music in the holistic sense because of a certain 'lack' of training or education strikes me as very, very troubling!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Occasionally, I get dragged to a local church concert and there are usually soprano solos by Bach from the cantatas.

I literally get sick listening because of the off-pitch singing and out of control vibrato, "wobbling" is more like it.

After listening to the best people playing and singing, most of my life, even though I have taken no ear training courses, through experience, my ears have been trained plenty.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Trump has yet to select a musician to be part of his administration. What's wrong with the guy?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bulldog said:


> Trump has yet to select a musician to be part of his administration. What's wrong with the guy?


He was going to pick Yo-Yo Ma, except that he is being deported.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Schumanniac said:


> To Nate Miller.
> 
> Well, they may have a more narrow field of interest depending on their instrument, but i imagine a musician will have a greater appreciation for a much wider range, think thats a more accurate description. Like Mendelssohn string octet, for example. To a layman its a cacophony of sound, impressive it may be, but to a musician who has an intricate understanding of composition, i imagine their enthusiasm for a 16 year old fusing together 8 string instruments together, as taking on a wholly differrent level. Cause they will have a greater appreciation for exactly HOW difficult it is to do with just the customary 4.
> 
> P.S. How does one qoute on this accursed site? Tried the quotation marks in the corner and the site offers no guidance.


How are you defining "layman" here? What sort of person with any liking for music would find the Mendelssohn Octet "a cacophony of sound". I play a few musical instruments, none of which are from the string section of an orchestra and none of which would be anywhere near a professional standard, and in technical musical understanding I would consider myself a layman but in no wise would I hear the Octet as a cacophony. It's a brilliantly structured piece of string writing and even I can hear that!


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Nate Miller said:


> an "instinctual listener"....that's interesting.
> 
> for me as a player, let me ask you guys a couple questions....
> 
> ...


Nate, regarding point one provided they weren't making a complete hash of it I could cope with a couple of mistakes. But only in live performance. No excuse in the studio and that holds true for points two and three.

With regard to your second point I am familiar enough with many of the operas I love and know that I can hear when singers are either singing wrong notes or the wrong words but my cringe factor only kicks in if it happens frequently or the wrong notes are glaringly obvious. I remember posting on the Historical Wagner thread that I had been listening to a performance of Siegfried where in the first act Siegfried had been singing something that was close to what Wagner had written and harmonically fitted in with the orchestra but sounded to my ears odd. When I played the section in question back with the score in front of me I could see where he had gone wrong. Sort of variations on a theme of Wagner! It didn't annoy me overly much but it was there and I had noticed it so maybe on a subliminal level it was annoying!

With your third point I probably would notice if I was sufficiently familiar with the piece but again I'm not sure how much it would bother me if I thought it was a matter of interpretation.


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## Lenny (Jul 19, 2016)

That's a very good question... And I have no idea what to answer. I don't know what I'm looking for in music. But I for sure try to step away from all sort of intelligent analysis, as far as possible, because that really ruins my musical experience.

I still remember my first experience as a baby when I heard some silly pop music from radio. So maybe I'm still after that experience... Unfortunately I find it slipping further away all the time... I still get some of that in a good live performance, but still it's not the same. I have this stupid and huge brain apparatus grown in my head, always trying to decipher, always doing this and that unnecessary explanations. How can I turn it off? I believe_ that's _when the music starts.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

Bettina said:


> I am a pianist and music theorist, so I'm probably not supposed to post in this thread!  But let me sneak in just to say, yes I agree completely with this. Listening to music is an analytical experience for me, but I am emotionally moved as well.
> 
> Somehow my mind kind of "shuttles" between both modes.  The way it works is, I might hear a harmonic progression that tugs at my heartstrings--and then I immediately think something like "that was an emotional moment because of that augmented sixth chord." I enjoy making these rapid shifts between heart and brain.


I bet you're a lot like me in that you find it hard to listen passively to someone else playing a piece that you play. I'm not the type listening for mistakes, I'm more listening for what I like that I can use in my playing. Sometimes I'm listening to somebody, and I realize I'm just getting the musical equivalent of bags of gold off of this cat. I guess that's the sort of thing that really excites me.

but not everybody listens for the same things. I realized that early in life when my little sister had a crush on Andy Gibb


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

Barbebleu said:


> .... I had been listening to a performance of Siegfried where in the first act Siegfried had been singing something that was close to what Wagner had written and harmonically fitted in with the orchestra but sounded to my ears odd. When I played the section in question back with the score in front of me I could see where he had gone wrong. Sort of variations on a theme of Wagner!


you know, that can happen when a singer has something distract them and they lose their pitch. He may have been trying to get back on and singing what he heard in the orchestra.

If that happened to me, and I got through like that, I would figure I got by with it

so I have to say, that was well spotted


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Nate Miller said:


> I bet you're a lot like me in that you find it hard to listen passively to someone else playing a piece that you play. I'm not the type listening for mistakes, I'm more listening for what I like that I can use in my playing. Sometimes I'm listening to somebody, and I realize I'm just getting the musical equivalent of bags of gold off of this cat. I guess that's the sort of thing that really excites me.
> 
> but not everybody listens for the same things. I realized that early in life when my little sister had a crush on Andy Gibb


I know exactly what you mean. When I listen to a performance of a piece that I myself play, my ears go into overdrive.  So many things to listen for--phrasing, pedaling, voicing, rubato...

Especially if it's a really good performance, I become very inspired and I immediately want to head to the piano to try out the new things that I'm hearing. Of course, if I'm at a concert, I have to wait until I get home...I can't very well knock the pianist off the bench to give it a shot myself! :lol:


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

Bulldog said:


> Trump has yet to select a musician to be part of his administration. What's wrong with the guy?


I was in the Navy, and I can assure you all that the US Government has all sorts of safeguards in place to make sure that guys like me don't get anywhere near anything that could wreck civilization.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

jim prideaux said:


> Without intending to appear in any way facetious, awkward or contrary in any way I find personally that the initial question is disconcerting in the extreme. I am competent enough as a bass player to have played in a few bands over the years, can even bang out a tune on my piano but I am not a musician in the real sense (my son is and I know the difference between what he is capable of and what I can do!) but music has been a fundamental element of my life and will continue to be. Why? What am I listening to exactly?......something which enhances my very existence on a daily basis, in good times and in bad, something which rightly or wrongly encourages an almost spiritual aspect to my reflection on life......pretentious?.....possibly, but the apparent implication that somehow I cannot appreciate music in the holistic sense because of a certain 'lack' of training or education strikes me as very, very troubling!


the true gift of music doesn't have anything to do with how well you play, the real gift is that music enriches your life

clearly, you have the gift of music in you

I am truly sorry if I offended you, because that was not what I was after at all.

all the stuff about "civilians" and all is just for fun, I don't mean that seriously.

I was just curious what people who don't have a bunch of music training shoved down their throat are listening for or to when they listen to classical music


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## Lenny (Jul 19, 2016)

Nate Miller said:


> I was just curious what people who don't have a bunch of music training shoved down their throat are listening for or to when they listen to classical music


I think one aspect of my CM hobby is the complexity, which helps me to shut down the conceptual thinking machinery. I want the music to be so complicated that I cannot "understand" it anymore. Well of course I "get" some of it at least, but I don't want to follow this and that phrase, or harmony, or what have you. My goal is exactly the opposite: stop that sort of analytical thinking.

Maybe I should just get some drugs and listen to the bird singing or something... 

But of course I understand this is just my approach to music, there's no Truth in it. It's my personal aspect as a "civilian", but you asked for it


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## Schumanniac (Dec 11, 2016)

Barbebleu said:


> How are you defining "layman" here? What sort of person with any liking for music would find the Mendelssohn Octet "a cacophony of sound". I play a few musical instruments, none of which are from the string section of an orchestra and none of which would be anywhere near a professional standard, and in technical musical understanding I would consider myself a layman but in no wise would I hear the Octet as a cacophony. It's a brilliantly structured piece of string writing and even I can hear that!


A layman in the truest sense of the word, having never played an instrument, nor even being able to read notes. An amateur musician you may be but a musician none the less. It IS a brilliant piece, hence why i used that example. I doubt even a late mozart, a masterful orchestrator, could have achieved a similar perfection in the genre. Theres few string octets in existence, but they all sound more akin to two quartets playing off each other, his being the exception, his octet being a true unity.

But since i interpret music incredibly emotionally its just..... overwhelming. Cacophony makes it sound very negative, i certainly consider it an absolutely brilliant piece, the prime example of my sadness he never fully focused all his effort as a composer. But emotionally, theres so much going on at once, that i do not "gain" from it outside being wildly impressed. I cannot translate several people talking all at once, to make an analogy. Its far more difficult than in a symphony or other works, containing far more instruments. This is where i believe people who play themselves, having a greater realization how difficult it is to both compose and perform, might appreciate its complexity on a deeper level. Even for an amateur musician, being able to read notes, i cannot imagine you do not have a greater understanding of structure than me, who can only listen, and to whom a score is merely gibberish.


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## Marinera (May 13, 2016)

Any music, including and especially classical speaks on many more levels than purely cerebral, wasn't it Tchaikovsky who said that Mozart's music became his consolation in the later years. I may not be musician but complexity of classical music is still perceivable and enjoyable to my ears and brain, though probably my brain chews and digest it differently than yours does. Even so I feel starved both intelectually and spiritually if I have to listen to chart hits and similar for longer periods. Also I listen to classical because it speaks so many things otherwise impossible to find anywhere else in this form, classical music conveys the spirit of things and ideas in this unique, abstract form, where popular songs are simply inadequate and limited. 

To answer your other enquiries, since I am not able to study music scores and such, listening to many interpretations helps me to familiarize with any particular music piece, see differences in playing, sometimes I even begin hearing fragments I didn't hear or payed attention earlier. That way I slowly build and round the picture of any music piece in my mind as well as get a feel for performers personalities, and what they themselves bring in. Wrong notes, yes, I think you can play those around me, if they are not excessive or too jarring, although I believe this is fairly recent development this obsession to play every note correct. Musicians in the past policed their notes less religiously, it was even the prerogative of the very best pianists to jazz up music with few wrong notes, and that was fine.

Seeing music performed either live or in video helps understand music better as well, but live listening in the concert is also usually less critical too.


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

As has been commented before music enriches my life
I can get lost in another world listening to a Haydn Symphony or a Mozart PC they take me somewhere else, but please don't ask where because I don't know. I can't read music or play an instrument so mistakes will pass me by, my enjoyment comes from that feeling in me.
I know it took me time to feel like this about classical music in general and that effort has been required. It makes me hesitant to join in some threads, when I can see people with greater musical knowledge and understanding than me entering lengthy posts on matters I don't really understand. However, I have learnt much from people here on TC and can say that I now enjoy a greater range of composers e.g. Mahler then ever I did.
A bit rambling but sums up what I feel


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