# Whiplash



## Dustin

Anyone see the movie called Whiplash about a jazz drummer in a conservatory? My friend suggested it to and after reading the reviews, I was beyond excited to watch it. It has nearly universal acclaim and near-perfect scores on review sites. I gave up about 30 minutes in because it seemed extremely unrealistic and the bald teacher guy was beyond disgusting and extremely exaggerated as a character to me. I've never been to a conservatory, although I know some of you have. I just can't imagine anyone acting that way in real life.


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## Guest

I don't think it's supposed to be realistic: it's more of a psychological drama that portrays a very disturbed teacher. I'm looking forward to it--the previews look great.


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## Dustin

Kontrapunctus said:


> I don't think it's supposed to be realistic: it's more of a psychological drama that portrays a very disturbed teacher. I'm looking forward to it--the previews look great.


I went in with the wrong expectations then. With this subject matter, realism would seem to be an important thing to consider. I mean I can understand if I'm watching Lord of the Rings but... I was hoping for a somewhat realistic view of a young man's struggles coming up in the jazz world.


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## Guest

It's on my radar. The trailer reminded me of Full Metal Jacket; breaking a person to remake them.


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## arpeggio

Played a concert with Arthur Fiedler and he the _Whiplash_ guy look like Mary Poppins.


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## Dustin

arpeggio said:


> Played a concert with Arthur Fiedler and he the _Whiplash_ guy look like Mary Poppins.


Lol what's worse than getting 6 inches from someone's face like a drill sergeant and screaming curse words and insults at the top of your lungs until they cry? Physical beat down?


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## arpeggio

Dustin said:


> Lol what's worse than getting 6 inches from someone's face like a drill sergeant and screaming curse words and insults at the top of your lungs until they cry? Physical beat down?


Fiedler actually did that to one of the percussionists during the orchestra rehearsal. He stormed off the podium, went back to the percussion section right up the gentleman playing the bass drum and started screaming at him. The gentleman was so traumatized he was shaking after the rehearsal. I will never forget the poor guy. That was probably the worst thing Fiedler did. We were appalled at his behavior. None of the board members or the manager had the courage to stand up to him. This was with the Greensboro Symphony back in the sixties when I was a junior in college. I was an alternant clarinet player with the orchestra.

You want to here more stories, I have got plenty of them.


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## Dustin

arpeggio said:


> Fiedler actually did that to one of the percussionists during the orchestra rehearsal. He stormed off the podium, went back to the percussion section right up the gentleman playing the bass drum and started screaming at him. The gentleman was so traumatized he was shaking after the rehearsal. I will never forget the poor guy. That was probably the worst thing Fiedler did. We were appalled at his behavior. None of the board members or the manager had the courage to stand up to him. This was with the Greensboro Symphony back in the sixties when I was a junior in college. I was an alternant clarinet player with the orchestra.
> 
> You want to here more stories, I have got plenty of them.


Well maybe the movie is reality haha. That's pretty terrible. I'm glad you told me this though because I couldn't wrap my head around a music teacher acting like a military leader and your story will allow me to take the movie seriously now. Even if it is an extremely rare thing, as I would guess that the overwhelming majority of conductors and higher level music teachers act sensibly.


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## arpeggio

Dustin said:


> Well maybe the movie is reality haha. That's pretty terrible. I'm glad you told me this though because I couldn't wrap my head around a music teacher acting like a military leader and your story will allow me to take the movie seriously now. Even if it is an extremely rare thing, as I would guess that the overwhelming majority of conductors and higher level music teachers act sensibly.


This type of behavior is rare but it does occur.


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## PetrB

Dustin said:


> I went in with the wrong expectations then. With this subject matter, realism would seem to be an important thing to consider. I mean I can understand if I'm watching Lord of the Rings but... I was hoping for a somewhat realistic view of a young man's struggles coming up in the jazz world.


If it were realistic, the teacher would have been instantly fired, not suspended but fired, for having slapped the student, period.

What you were / are hoping for, really, is a documentary on the subject and not a scripted drama.


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## Dustin

PetrB said:


> If it were realistic, the teacher would have been instantly fired, not suspended but fired, for having slapped the student, period.
> 
> What you were / are hoping for, really, is a documentary on the subject and not a scripted drama.


Yeah I completely forgot about the slap. I figured that was 100% unrealistic. And like you say, a good documentary would be best but at the same time there are great scripted dramas as well that don't resort to over the top and totally absurd situations.


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## arpeggio

Although I have never witnessed physical abuse I have heard of some. Like the high school band director who threw a blackboard eraser at a timpanist for messing up a solo during a rehearsal. This occurred many years ago and I doubt that a high school band director could get away with such behavior today.


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## Dustin

So I decided to finish watching the movie after all and I thought it was all pretty ridiculous and way off-base. Doesn't seem like musicians made the movie and maybe all the critics are non-musicians.


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## arpeggio

The director and writer was a jazz drummer in his high school jazz band. It is funny but we were talking about the film at band rehearsal tonight and even though the main teacher was a but extreme, we thought it was very realistic. We talked about some of the real monster we have had to work with.


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## Dustin

arpeggio said:


> The director and writer was a jazz drummer in his high school jazz band. It is funny but we were talking about the film at band rehearsal tonight and even though the main teacher was a but extreme, we thought it was very realistic. We talked about some of the real monster we have had to work with.


Hahaha the dude gets hit by an eighteen-wheeler on his side of the vehicle and promptly climbs out and runs to his show while bleeding profusely. Maybe in a Marvel movie. Also, the teacher is a central figure and basically 50% of the movie. So with his extreme physical and verbal abuse, which no one happens to report even after many years, that part of the movie is not representative of reality. Also, it seems throughout the entire movie, the scenes showing the main character's method of improving his musicianship show him basically sitting alone and trying to see how fast he can play. No jam sessions with other students, no scenes of him practicing different styles and techniques. Simply 99 miles an hour of playing as fast as he can.

http://www.independent.ie/entertain...-the-genre-in-hit-film-whiplash-30937580.html

What parts of it seem real to you?


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## arpeggio

*Mostly Realistic*

There are some unrealistic elements in the film. With the exception of the extreme conduct of the drill teacher, those are accurate representations of how rehearsals work. I have witnessed many yellers but I have never seen any physical abuse.

OK. You do not like the film. Fine. Except for a few exaggerations it is a very accurate representation on how rehearsing and music making works. What the director and the cast got right far exceeds the few inaccurate parts. I have yet to run into a musician who thinks it is bad film. (I am sure there are probably a few out there.)

I am an instrumentalists who has over fifty years experience playing in orchestras, bands, jazz bands _etc._ How many incidents do I have to recall? Do I have to tell you how at band rehearsal last Wednesday how the director was reprimanding us for dragging the tempo? He was not yelling at us but he was using many of the same techniques as J. K. Simmons' character. He was not being mean (to non-musicians his behavior may be over the top but he is a real nice guy), but at one point when we were dragging he stopped conducting and starting clapping the tempo in order to push us. Without being vicious, the director may have to push the musicians. We are used to it. If these experience disqualifies me for vouching for this film, I give up.


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## Dustin

arpeggio said:


> There are some unrealistic elements in the film. With the exception of the extreme conduct of the drill teacher, those are accurate representations of how rehearsals work. I have witnessed many yellers but I have never seen any physical abuse.
> 
> OK. You do not like the film. Fine. Except for a few exaggerations it is a very accurate representation on how rehearsing and music making works. What the director and the cast got right far exceeds the few inaccurate parts. I have yet to run into a musician who thinks it is bad film. (I am sure there are probably a few out there.)
> 
> I am an instrumentalists who has over fifty years experience playing in orchestras, bands, jazz bands _etc._ How many incidents do I have to recall? Do I have to tell you how at band rehearsal last Wednesday how the director was reprimanding us for dragging the tempo? He was not yelling at us but he was using many of the same techniques as J. K. Simmons' character. He was not being mean (to non-musicians his behavior may be over the top but he is a real nice guy), but at one point when we were dragging he stopped conducting and starting clapping the tempo in order to push us. Without being vicious, the director may have to push the musicians. We are used to it. If these experience disqualifies me for vouching for this film, I give up.


I completely understand that there are aspects of it that are realistic, such as the framework of the rehearsal methods. I get it. But there is just too much that is unreal for my tastes. Apparently our tolerance level for embellishment is different. You use an example of your teacher clapping the tempo to make your point that the movie's scenes are realistic. I say it is not because instead of slapping his hands, he slaps the students faces. I have spent some years in an orchestra as well and have had a dozen or more music teachers throughout my life. So scenes like that and all the other things littered throughout the movie might not bother some, but I didn't find it an accurate portrayal of student/teacher relationships, practice methods, etc... And I've read and listened to several musician's and music critics opinions as well, one of which I linked to earlier, and plenty are on my side. Here's another from a Juiilliard Professor who debunks several of the key aspects of the movie that have substantial time devoted to them. And like I said earlier, he also points out that there are some aspects that are realistic, but most are exaggerated and some are completely incorrect, such as the practice methods.

http://www.vulture.com/2014/10/ask-an-expert-juilliard-professor-whiplash.html


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## PetrB

Why do people think a dramatic vehicle, film or play, should be realistic? Seriously, I would like to know... because it seems like if the subject is of interest or close to them, especially, they get vocal about the piece not being damned close to an accurate documentary, and they forget it is a dramatic vehicle -- usually those incorporate a whole lot of poetic license.

This is like the similar complaints that _Amadeus_ was not historically accurate... i.e. a to do over what the thing was not vs. what it actually was.


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## Dustin

The only thing I've been arguing is that significant portions of it are exaggerated, and Arpeggio was disagreeing and saying it was mostly realistic. This matter of _should_ or _shouldn't_ *all* dramas be realistic I don't care about. Amadeus is one of my favorite movies so I'm not against some twisting of the facts when they are entertaining. I didn't find this movie's twisting of the facts or it's pointless inaccuracies entertaining or useful.


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## Guest

I personally wouldn't look to any work of fiction to be a reliable source of factual information or accuracy. That is not a sacrosanct fundamental driver behind any such project.


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## Dustin

dogen said:


> I personally wouldn't look to any work of fiction to be a reliable source of factual information or accuracy. That is not a sacrosanct fundamental driver behind any such project.


Of course it's not a rule, but in this case the movie would've been better. And that's why I said I didn't like it.


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## Couac Addict

As previously stated, the scenes during rehearsals in that movie are more accurate than most would like to admit.
Whilst no one was slapped during my conservatoire days, there's no shortage of mental abuse from conductors who I guess came from the _George Szell School of Music and Sociopathy_. Szell would've eaten that music teacher for breakfast.

I remember a chair being flung at the wall in the next room out of frustration. That was a bit of excitement for the day.
I can just imagine what it was like during less litigious times.

...and now for everyone's amusement. A video that I shall title "Not My Tempo!"


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## arpeggio

Thanks, this is a point I have been trying to make myself.


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## Albert7

I haven't seen the movie yet but hopefully I will get a chance to catch it on streaming someday.


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## Guest

Saw this film tonight.
Quite enjoyed it; the music teacher role was probably the best thing about it. Apart from that, it's a bit of a thin film; not much to it.


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## Guest

We watched it tonight and thoroughly enjoyed it. I would like to know more of J.K. Simmons' character's back story (just _why_ is he so driven/sadistic beyond wanting "to push" his students?), but otherwise it was excellent. I'm glad he won an Oscar. Great sound track, too.


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## Guest

My instructor was once playing bass in a college symphony doing a Copland piece, At one point, he was to solo although it consisted of nothing more than stroking the open E. My instructor's instructor was Robert Gladstone who was principal bassist of the Detroit Symphony. He was invited to attend this private screening along with a few other instructors. They were only supposed to watch. When it came time for my instructor to solo, Mr. Gladstone, to everyone's shock, stood up and shouted for everyone to stop. Then he went up to my instructor and demanded the bass. Then he began to stroke the E string open and it rang to the rafters. My instructor admitted it didn't sound like that when he was doing it and he noted Mr. Gladstone's arm was barely moving. Then Mr. Gladstone thrust the bass back into my instructor's arms and saying that if this piece was to have any meaning at all then THAT is how the bass must sound.

In Japan, it was very common for displeased teachers to physically abuse students. The famous story is the master puppeteer to studied under a renown but very harsh sensei. Once while practicing with his puppets, the student angered his sensei so badly that the sensei screamed abuse, grabbed the puppets and whacked the student across the forehead so hard that the legs broke off and were covered in blood. The student, however, went on to became a master puppeteer and on the anniversary of his sensei's death, would remove the bloody, broken legs of the doll that he kept in a special box and pay tribute to his sensei saying if not for that beating he could never have become a master puppeteer.


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## Guest

As for Amadeus, I thought that was a hack job. They slandered poor Salieri, they should have gotten sued by someone. The movie made Salieri look like a hack. The man taught some of our most famous composers--Schubert, for example. The movie depicted him as dour and humorless when he was known in Vienna for his comedic operas. He was as famous as Mozart in his day. And needless to say, he had nothing to do with Mozart's death. I suppose they got that from Pushkin. I don't know where they got the stuff about the strained relationship between Mozart and his father. From everything I've read, they were very close and Mozart was devoted to him.

At one point in the movie, Mozart is playing other composers' music and someone requests Handel and Mozart replies, "No, I don't like him." When, in fact, Mozart was a big fan of Handel. I was wondering just how much research that they actually did for this movie.


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## KenOC

Victor Redseal said:


> As for Amadeus, I thought that was a hack job. They slandered poor Salieri, they should have gotten sued by someone.


Well, the movie was essentially a fantasy, based not on history but on Pushkin's play. Anyway, Salieri got the last laugh. He got the Best Actor Oscar, and Wolfgang didn't. :lol:


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## Yoshi

I watched the movie without expecting much but ended up enjoying it a lot. 

I honestly don't understand why is there a problem about not being realistic. First because it's a movie and movies don't need to be realistic to be enjoyable and second because I've actually seen music teachers use some of those methods. It really wasn't that over the top it reminded me of a theory teacher I used to have who dressed up in black every single day (just like the main character) and used to verbally humiliate students in class. Some of my classmates couldn't even make presentations because he wouldn't even let you start talking and immediatly tell you to sit down because you were a disgrace. Anyway his philosophy was very similar to this movie character, he thought he had to "destroy" what he thought were bad habits the students had or make us forget the idea that we knew anything before he would push us and shape us the way he wanted. One thing for sure, I remember him more than the other teachers that would simply say "good job" to anything I did. 

Another example, I also know someone who had a piano teacher who would shout a lot and once threw his sheet books across the room.

Would I do this to my students? Definitely not, but this does happen and the result is usualy like you saw on the movie, some people give up and others become the best they can.


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## Cosmos

Yeah I share the same opinion. It got my blood boiling with anger, frustration, and stress, much like the main character [if that was the director's goal, kudos to him], but at the expense of being believable. I enjoyed it while I watched it at least, the drumming was phenomenal, but I probably won't ever watch it again


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## jurianbai

I tended to like music theme movie, so I actually enjoy this one. Indeed the sadistic part is the most exciting one, that is the one that make this movie "memorable". I think the jazz and classical genre are perfect to add more horror elements on this situation, compare to if it is done with rock, because, well, in rock we should just "enjoy our self" and "fxxx what the teacher said" . :lol:

I dig to the OST and quite enjoy the musics.


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## Belowpar

Interesting movie, well acted and the denouement is a brilliant piece of theatre.

Strangely what I disliked most was the piece of music "Whiplash" that they played over and over. Having a more melodius piece could have made the watching experience 'warmer' even if it would have removed some of the hard aetheticism. Because of this I thought it would appeal solely to Jazz lovers.


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## helenora

I watched it yesterday and enjoyed it immensely. As for music....well, I think "whiplash" without being the most melodious piece corresponds quite well to an atmosphere of a movie as it's not supposed to be a "warm" movie. Even a drum solo in final episode isn't the best if one knows other drum solos, but for this movie it's the only one they should have played and they did and therefore it fits the movie, the drama perfectly, that's why I think it's a perfect solo for THIS movie. and in the end realistic or not? Yes it is. Of course physical abuse is rare, but such kind of a dictator is not a rare thing in an orchestra.....even if you think of great conductors such as Karajan, Celibidache, Wand, etc they all were more or less dictators, authoritative leaders for their musicians .


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## norman bates

helenora said:


> I watched it yesterday and enjoyed it immensely. As for music....well, I think "whiplash" without being the most melodious piece corresponds quite well to an atmosphere of a movie as it's not supposed to be a "warm" movie. Even a drum solo in final episode isn't the best if one knows other drum solos, but for this movie it's the only one they should have played and they did and therefore it fits the movie, the drama perfectly, that's why I think it's a perfect solo for THIS movie. and in the end realistic or not? Yes it is. Of course physical abuse is rare, but such kind of a dictator is not a rare thing in an orchestra.....even if you think of great conductors such as Karajan, Celibidache, Wand, etc they all were more or less dictators, authoritative leaders for their musicians .


the unrealistic thing is that jazz is not based on pure demonstration of technique. There are great jazz musician that have outstanding technique but there are also Louis Armstrong, Miles Davis, Thelonious Monk, Pee Wee Russell, Ornette Coleman. 
Nobody cares if the solo is incredibly fast or if you miss a note, and that seems the only thing that matters in the movie.
Jazz is the music where what counts more is the personality of the musician, not the physical tour the force.
It's like if the idea of jazz in the movie is modeled on Buddy Rich (both the musician and the scary abusive bandleader), who's usually revered especially by those who don't listen a lot of jazz, because of his speed.


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## Belowpar

norman bates said:


> the unrealistic thing is that jazz is not based on pure demonstration of technique. There are great jazz musician that have outstanding technique but there are also Louis Armstrong, Miles Davis, Thelonious Monk, Pee Wee Russell, Ornette Coleman.
> Nobody cares if the solo is incredibly fast or if you miss a note, and that seems the only thing that matters in the movie.
> Jazz is the music where what counts more is the personality of the musician, not the physical tour the force.
> It's like if the idea of jazz in the movie is modeled on Buddy Rich (both the musician and the scary abusive bandleader), who's usually revered especially by those who don't listen a lot of jazz, because of his speed.


Good post. I do wonder how music is taught e.g. it seems that Opera voices today are technically adept but lack the individual Character you refer to. I do believe the Writer Director has been tthrough music education and the film is an expansion of an idea he first put in a short film. So he clearly feels this is revlavant to the Conservatoire. At least thats the world it created successfully for me.

Other band leaders who were tyrants include Glenn Miller and Benny Goodman.


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## Piwikiwi

norman bates said:


> the unrealistic thing is that jazz is not based on pure demonstration of technique. There are great jazz musician that have outstanding technique but there are also Louis Armstrong, Miles Davis, Thelonious Monk, Pee Wee Russell, Ornette Coleman.
> Nobody cares if the solo is incredibly fast or if you miss a note, and that seems the only thing that matters in the movie.
> Jazz is the music where what counts more is the personality of the musician, not the physical tour the force.
> It's like if the idea of jazz in the movie is modeled on Buddy Rich (both the musician and the scary abusive bandleader), who's usually revered especially by those who don't listen a lot of jazz, because of his speed.


The technical demands have increased a lot in the last 2 decades and technique is way more important now then it was in the 50's


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## Guest

Yeah the drumming in Whiplash is very much Buddy Rich testosterone show off stuff. Not very musical. By way of comparison, the drumming in the superb Birdman provides an excellent contribution to the atmosphere of the film.


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## norman bates

Piwikiwi said:


> The technical demands have increased a lot in the last 2 decades and technique is way more important now then it was in the 50's


I don't think that technique is more important. Is simply something that has became an obsession for too many people, but that does not have anything to do with the quality of the music.


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## helenora

norman bates, I'm with all my heart with you and agree on pretty everything what you said about technique and I know it's Buddy Rich's style is praised in this movie and even compared with Gene Krupa Buddy sounds more impressive for many people. That's exactly because of that "impressiveness" , I mean visible impressiveness when an average Joe can say "wow" what a technique!, what a musician!, etc director of movie and the entire scenario is based on that. Imagine they imitate a different musician's style, more exquisite, details, rhythmic creativeness, not just about speed or so, who would understand it? who? just professionals or jazz connoisseurs. Was this movie shot for a professionals who really can distinguish styles, subtleties, performer's uniqueness??? I doubt it....I think a director and a scenarists did the best to convey the idea of what it can be to be a member of an orchestra, any orchestra, not just of a jazz band, in short what it means to be a professional musician: a lot of sacrifice, sufferings, exhausting rehearsals, conflicts with colleagues, struggles with oneself, enormous dedication and other things....and in this sense the movie showed it quite realistically, it was true well. How otherwise would an average person get it? through what? here a performer's technique as they understand it ( speed) was just a tool to show an audience how good he was as a drum player. An audience, public at cinemas or watching it on their DVDs should comprehend at the very first glance how good this guy was and how unfair and monstrous was his "teacher" . For the sake of an idea in a movie they did it quite well, to show it straight and clear for public - here is this, here is that......I just remember once listening to Cecilia Bartoli who is known for her fantastic technique and by saying this I don't mean just her fantastic virtuoso passages , but her wonderful pianissimos and breathing , her phrases. But here again when she sings fast arias at the concert she was praised enormously and when it's slow arias then it's less obvious for pubic how difficult it can be as well. For people an "appearance" , this visible part of what they call a technique always will be on the foreground....what to do? it is true.....and only a small part of an audience will know the real things. That's the same on all levels, not only about jazz music or classical singers, it's the same about whole culture, there always will be more "admirers" of Justin Biber ( sorry ,if I made a mistake , don't know how to spell his name) or Lady Gaga than of Cecilia or Kathleen Battle in this world


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## Skilmarilion

Saw this recently. Bloody fantastic movie, I thought. 

Every moment was engaging, the performances top notch along with a really brilliant ending.


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## Guest

I was very disappointed to read in the CD soundtrack's liner notes that the music was recorded one note at a time! WTF? So much for live performances.


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## sweetviolin

Totally unrealistic, and stupid movie I thought. Gave up after 30 minutes or so too.


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## Belowpar

sweetviolin said:


> Totally unrealistic, and stupid movie I thought. Gave up after 30 minutes or so too.


I look forward to more of your Film reviews of the opening 30 minutes!

Do you agree that based on it's opening, 'Up' is the greatest animated film ever?

But my absolute favourite opening is the half second it takes for the head to touch the pillow before the soundtrack starts in Mean Streets. I knew then it was a great Movie. One day I'll watch the rest of it.


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