# Beethoven 9 Furtwangler



## science

A friend told me I should get a recording of Beethoven's 9th symphony conducted by Furtwangler. 

It turns out there are several. I wonder, which do you think I should get if I were only getting one?


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## Rangstrom

The '54 on Tahra.


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## afterpostjack

You can hear several of them on Spotify. I'm not sure which one is my favorite.


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## tahnak

The recording with RAI on Everest Label (the 1949) version and the Berlin Philharmonic (1950) version is cracking. You have to hear the timpani to believe this. Though I prefer the tempi taken by Zubin Mehta/New York (CBS) and Solti/Chicago(Decca), in sheer energy and transparency, the Furtwangler recordings cannot be surpassed.


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## Manxfeeder

If you're like me and want more than one, eventually try to hear the 1942 performance, remastered by Music & Arts. All I can think of to describe it is, it's a singular performance.


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## Bill H.

Of the two performances mentioned here already, the 1942 Berlin and the 1954 Lucerne Festival (his last recording of it), seem to be the most mentioned in any forum on this subject. 

The former for its blazing intensity coming from wartime Germany, the latter a more contemplative interpretation (and which the conductor himself seemed most satisfied with). 

Be warned, the 1942 is not easy to listen to--besides the intensity of the performance, it suffers from pretty bad sonic overload in the loudest passages. 

Another one that gets lots of discussion time is the 1951 performance he led that opened the Bayreuth Festival after WWII. This one suffers from some egregious performance fluffs by the horns in the slow movement--at least in the unexpurgated broadcast taping. The release on EMI of this performance is said to be a pastiche taken from the performance itself and the rehearsal tapings. I've not heard the EMI version so I can't comment. 

The Tahra release of the 1954 is an SACD and rather pricey. Of all the remasterings of this and the 1942 performances I'd recommend checking out the newest ones, from the Pristine Audio label. It's available primarily as a download, either in mp3 or FLAC versions. The sound quality is about as good as you'll get considering the original sources. prisitineaudio.com or pristineclassical.com


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## science

Bill H. thank you for that info.


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## Brahmsianhorn

Bill H. answered this question pretty well. The 1942 is my favorite by a wide margin, best heard on Tahra if you can find it. I have never heard such terror in the first movement or such passionate choral singing in the finale. 

I know a lot of people are swayed by the better sound quality of the 1954 Lucerne, which is certainly a moving performance, but I still think the 1951 Bayreuth recording is special and has greater intensity.

But I think all Furtwangler 9ths have something special to say. I have 10 of them, which I think accounts for all his versions except the 1943 Stockholm.

Here they are in my order of preference, the last being the actual recording from Hitler's birthday. I found this to be a mere shadow of the performance from just a month earlier. Whereas the earlier one had a clear vision, this one sounds more chaotic and unfocused. Maybe there was a reason for that.

3/22/42 BPO (Tahra, Music & Arts, Pristine, Archipel, Andromeda) 
7/29/1951 Bayreuth (Orfeo, Tahra, EMI) 
8/22/54 Lucerne (Audite, Tahra, Pristine, Music & Arts, Andromeda) 
8/31/51 VPO (Orfeo) 
1952 VPO (Tahra, Music & Arts) 
1953 VPO (DG, ICA) 
1/7/51 VPO (Orfeo)
8/8/54 Bayreuth (Music & Arts) 
1937 BPO (EMI Great Conductors, Music & Arts, Archipel)
4/19/42 BPO (Archipel)


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## DarkAngel

Bill H. said:


> The Tahra release of the 1954 is an SACD and rather pricey. Of all the remasterings of this and the 1942 performances I'd recommend checking out the newest ones, from the *Pristine Audio *label. It's available primarily as a download, either in mp3 or FLAC versions. The sound quality is about as good as you'll get considering the original sources. prisitineaudio.com or pristineclassical.com


The Pristine XR 1954 B9 remaster is absolutely stellar in amazing sound now (check long sound sample) the older 42 B9 is much less successful and not much better than other existing versions IMO (music & arts etc), distant sound with heavy echo/rumble/distortion important historical document but for everyday listening go for new 54 remaster.........

https://www.pristineclassical.com/collections/composer-beethoven/products/pasc261



















Best starting point is probably the cheapest used 1951 B9 EMI Bayreuth you can find.....
Also found in super cheap Warner boxset $15 new at Amazon USA.....


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## Brahmsianhorn

For Bayreuth 1951, the best transfer is the Orfeo official master:










The 1954 Lucerne can be heard best on the above listed Pristine or the excellent Audite master:










If you can find a Tahra transfer of the 1942 (there are several incarnations and repackagings, though none still in print) grab it. Otherwise go for the latest Music & Arts:


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## DavidA

The Bayreuth performance is celebrated disappointing. Much overrated. Furtwangler himself was said to be disappointed with it and Walter Legge rubbed it in for him by saying it could have been better. I have another with the VPO that is a better performance but in not good sound.


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## Brahmsianhorn

DavidA said:


> The Bayreuth performance is celebrated disappointing. Much overrated. Furtwangler himself was said to be disappointed with it and Walter Legge rubbed it in for him by saying it could have been better. I have another with the VPO that is a better performance but in not good sound.


It is not as viscerally intense as the 1942 BPO, but I still think there was a sense of occasion that rubbed off on the performance. In that regard it was arguably even superior to the 1942 9th, as John Ardoin argued in his book, The Furtwangler Record.

When I was young I had heard about Furtwangler for several years, but every time I tried a recording I was turned off by the poor sound quality and generally slower tempos. It was like one feels when forced to eat his potatoes and broccoli. I preferred the newer, flashy recordings that grabbed my attention from the get-go.

It was the Bayreuth 9th that finally turned me on to Furtwangler. I heard the resolution and feeling of freedom that transmitted the spirit of the score. I finally understood why so many talked of Furtwangler's Beethoven in "hushed tones of reverence."


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## wkasimer

Brahmsianhorn said:


> For Bayreuth 1951, the best transfer is the Orfeo official master:


Isn't this a different recording from the EMI? I remember reading somewhere that the EMI is actually a recording of the dress rehearsal, and the Orfeo the actual performance.



> The 1954 Lucerne can be heard best on the above listed Pristine or the excellent Audite master:


It also sounds terrific on a Tahra SACD if you can find it.


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## DavidA

wkasimer said:


> Isn't this a different recording from the EMI? I remember reading somewhere that the EMI is actually a recording of the dress rehearsal, and the Orfeo the actual performance.
> 
> It also sounds terrific on a Tahra SACD if you can find it.


It has been said that the EMI is a pastiche of rehearsal and performances. It somehow doesn't do it for me anyway.


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## Brahmsianhorn

wkasimer said:


> Isn't this a different recording from the EMI? I remember reading somewhere that the EMI is actually a recording of the dress rehearsal, and the Orfeo the actual performance.


I think they are for the most part the same performance. The infamous horn flub towards the end of III occurs in both.


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## DavidA

Just listening to the VPO recording of 1951. If vourse the thing is stymied by a poor recording but the first movement is a bit turgid on my opinion. More lift to the scherzo. But why these sudden accelerations?


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## Brahmsianhorn

DavidA said:


> But why these sudden accelerations?


They sound completely natural to me. They naturally fit with the harmonic progressions. The only part of Furtwangler's interpretation that doesn't sound quite right to me is the accelerando at the closing bars of the finale. In some of his recordings this passage sounds forced.

An overlooked Furtwangler 9th is the 1953 VPO, very powerful and in good sound:


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## Brahmsianhorn

In comparing old guard German conductors, Klemperer is the one that strikes me as having the least amount of flexibility. Whether at a faster tempo in his earlier days or slower as he got old, he maintains the same steady pulse. To my ears it is not dynamic enough an approach as you get with Furtwangler. On the other extreme is Mengelberg, who makes tempo changes that often strike me as random and "toying" with the music. The tempo fluctuations must sound as if they naturally follow the structure and harmonic language of the score.


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## Merl

Brahmsianhorn said:


> ..... On the other extreme is Mengelberg, who makes tempo changes that often strike me as random and "toying" with the music. The tempo fluctuations must sound as if they naturally follow the structure and harmonic language of the score.


Yep, agreed. I've never got on with Mengelberg's Beethoven at all. There's no flow to it. Doesn't help that the recordings still sound dire even after the Pristine remasters. I can live with Klemperer in some symphonies but in the some of the lighter even numbers (4th and 8th) and in the 7th, in particular, Klemperer never captures the joyful moments. Listen to Kletzki (especially) or Sanderling at similar slower speeds in the same symphonies and it becomes even more apparent.


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## ccar

This evening I listened once more to the 22-24th March and to the 19th April 1942 Furtwangler BPO "war performances" of the Beethoven Ninth. The April recording comes from a concert on the eve of Hitler's birthday and Furtwangler seems to have tried to give reasons to be excused from the Nazi celebration but was cornered by Goebbels. Anyway, an unknown private recording of the broadcast appears to have survived and was published a few years ago by Archipel. However, the sound quality is much less than desirable, especially when compared with the tapes from the March recording (Melodyia, Tahra, SWF, King and more recently BPO have some good transfers).

I believe it is the March recording that we always keep in our memory. The first movement opens and builds into such a unique tension that immediately sets the ambience for the whole performance - and I cannot remember anything like that, even in any other of the Furtwangler recordings. But if you can overcome the sound limitations and still want to explore the April performance and the emotional setting that was probably underneath I suggest you go and listen to the Adagio. In the April concert the Adagio is invaded with a kind of sadness and instead of a cantabile you almost feel it like a dreadful and hesitant march of despair. Just compare this with the singing joy of the Adagio in the March recording or, to go to another extreme, to the hopeful prelude to the Finale that Furtwangler paints in 1951.


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## StrE3ss

For the 1942 version, someone have try both Prestine Classical and furtwanglersound.com wich one have better sound


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes

I'm not familiar with this conductor, any info anyone? Beethoven's 9th is one of my favorites in Classical music regardless.


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## ccar

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> I'm not familiar with this conductor, any info anyone? Beethoven's 9th is one of my favorites in Classical music regardless.


There is a detailed biographical essay in the old Tahra site http://patangel.free.fr/furt/bio_en.htm

Regarding his approach to music interpretation and particular Beethoven I recommend his own words in 1938:


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## DavidA

ccar said:


> There is a detailed biographical essay in the old Tahra site http://patangel.free.fr/furt/bio_en.htm
> 
> Regarding his approach to music interpretation and particular Beethoven I recommend his own words in 1938:
> 
> View attachment 114159


In other words 'I am the only one who knows how to interpret Beethoven! How modest!


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## Malx

I'm sure his lawyers would argue that the quote is taken out of context and a lot was lost in translation


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## ccar

*Beethoven gave me a lesson …*



Malx said:


> I'm sure his lawyers would argue that the quote is taken out of context and a lot was lost in translation


Maybe the same lawyers could also be hired by the composer ... 

_"Beethoven gave me a lesson …

… When I left out something in a passage, a note or a skip, which in many cases he wished to have specially emphasized, or struck a wrong key, he seldom said anything; yet when I was at fault with regard to the expression, the crescendo or matters of that kind, or in the character of the piece, he would grow angry. Mistakes of the other kind, he said were due to chance; but these last resulted from want of knowledge, feeling or attention" _

(Ferdinand Ries)


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## Brahmsianhorn

DavidA said:


> In other words 'I am the only one who knows how to interpret Beethoven! How modest!


Are you jealous of Furtwängler's reputation as the greatest Beethoven interpreter? Sounds like Tall Poppy Syndrome.


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## Heck148

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Are you jealous of Furtwängler's reputation as the greatest Beethoven interpreter? Sounds like Tall Poppy Syndrome.


greatest Beethoven interpreter?? that title is most certainly up for grabs....no unanimous winner, that's for certain..


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## Brahmsianhorn

Heck148 said:


> greatest Beethoven interpreter?? that title is most certainly up for grabs....no unanimous winner, that's for certain..


I was trying to sarcastically play the "Tall Poppy" card, since some people will take license to downgrade every conductor except Karajan, whom if anyone dares to criticize it must obviously come from jealousy.

That said, you may not get a majority of classical music experts to call Furtwangler the greatest Beethoven interpreter, but I dare say he might get the most votes. For some he was synonymous with Beethoven, the same way you identify Toscanini with Verdi.


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## wkasimer

Brahmsianhorn said:


> some people will take license to downgrade every conductor except Karajan,


Strawman alert.


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## Heck148

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I was trying to sarcastically play the "Tall Poppy" card, since some people will take license to downgrade every conductor except Karajan, whom if anyone dares to criticize it must obviously come from jealousy.


ok, gotcha....


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