# If you had to de-throne one of the ‘big three’...,



## Bellerophon (May 15, 2020)

If you had to de-throne one if the big three, Bach, Mozart or Beethoven, which would you choose?

And who would you put in his place?


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

I wouldn't de-throne either of them, but I would add Wagner and Brahms to the podium.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

allerius said:


> i wouldn't de-throne either of them, but i would add wagner and brahms to the podium.


Ditto.
*****
*****


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Bellerophon said:


> If you had to de-throne one if the big three, Bach, Mozart or Beethoven, which would you choose?
> 
> And who would you put in his place?


Beethoven. His influence, which has been extensive as it is lamentable, has been deadening to the art of music.


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

All of them stay on their thrones, with Haydn elevated to join them at the top.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Nevermind.............................


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Purely based on personal taste, I'd dump Beethoven and put in Mahler.


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## advokat (Aug 16, 2020)

Beethoven is the odd man out. To be replaced by Rachmaninov. Then it would be logical - everyone loves Bach, Mozart and Rachmaninov. Beethoven is mostly respected - for his, as H.L.Menken put it, "extraordinary intellect" (btw, I enjoy Beethoven hugely, and have about 15 cycles of his piano sonatas, and may be 10 cycles of his violin sonatas, but the three most loved - B,M,R.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> Beethoven. His influence, which has been extensive as it is lamentable, has been deadening to the art of music.


Beethoven was rocker before rock was invented


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I'd make Bach the King of Classical Music. Beethoven and Mozart would be two of his advisors.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Jacck said:


> Beethoven was rocker before rock was invented


The third movement of the _Moonlight_ sonata played on the electric guitar surely resembles Metal before Metal existed in my opinion:


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Actually, Bach seems the more respected than loved although this probably changed in the last ~4 decades due to both recordings and HIP. I was a bit too young and not yet really interested in classical music but the double (triple, but Scarlatti was not a big deal in Germany) anniversary 1985 is one of the first things I remember in a classical composer context (besides Mozartkugel candy...). And it was certainly very respectable whereas the Mozart anniversary 1991 (with Amadeus having come a few years before) was a riot.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Allerius said:


> The third movement of the _Moonlight_ sonata played on the electric guitar surely resembles Metal before Metal existed in my opinion:


That was great! It's not the way I would usually want to hear the movement, but a change of pace is always good.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Mozart out, Brahms or Sibelius in.
Beethoven first then Bach.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I encountered the guitar moonlight some time ago; it works surprisingly well. What also struck me, that while the basic tempo is about the same as pianists would take (which must be more difficult on guitar?), he relentlessly sticks to it and is a bit metronomic whereas even "strict" pianists are more flexible.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Allerius said:


> The third movement of the _Moonlight_ sonata played on the electric guitar surely resembles Metal before Metal existed in my opinion:


Painfully repetitive music!


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

I would exchange Mozart for Brahms, if forced, even though I love Mozart almost as much as I love Brahms.


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## Ned Low (Jul 29, 2020)

I would replace Amadeus with Bruckner. Three Bs. There you go.


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## Hugh Gee (May 3, 2021)

Mozart has to go.Too much routine predictability for me. A lot of churned out stuff as well as divine.
In his place, no one is really up with the two B's, but I have favourites that I always enjoy as much as anyone else, Nielsen, Berlioz, Schumann, Wagner, but only the latter has that astonishing list of achievements which the two greats have. But he is too dreary at times.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

I would dump Beethoven for the Duke of Wellington


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## ThankYouKiwi (May 2, 2021)

Bach and Beethoven are really indespensable for me, but I'd do without Mozart any day, and Wagner would easily take his place.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Mandryka said:


> Beethoven. His influence, which has been extensive as it is lamentable, has been deadening to the art of music.


I disagree. I think that Beethoven's influence was rather important to Romanticism in music, and even solid modern composers such as Bartók and Stravinsky paid their homage to the great composer of Bonn. I don't think that this influence has been "deadening", and I regret that classical composers today don't make (at least not that I'm aware) intense, original and positive tonal music like that of Beethoven anymore.



Mandryka said:


> Painfully repetitive music!


Using plenty of repeats is the standard for the music of the Classical era, including that of geniuses such as Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven and Schubert. Sonata form movements and minuets/scherzi almost always come with one or two repeats. They are optional to play/hear, and you can always remove them with a program such as Audacity if they bother you.



Bulldog said:


> That was great! It's not the way I would usually want to hear the movement, but a change of pace is always good.


I really like this transcription as well as it is very accurate to what the score indicates. The pace of many pianists in Beethoven tends to be slower than what Beethoven asks, and what I prefer to hear.



Kreisler jr said:


> I encountered the guitar moonlight some time ago; it works surprisingly well. What also struck me, that while the basic tempo is about the same as pianists would take (which must be more difficult on guitar?), he relentlessly sticks to it and is a bit metronomic whereas even "strict" pianists are more flexible.


My opinion is that the first movement of the _Kreutzer_ sonata could work very well with electric guitar too. I think that it would be fun if someday someone did a Metal version of it without cuts and respecting the score. :guitar:


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Bellerophon said:


> If you had to de-throne one if the big three, Bach, Mozart or Beethoven, which would you choose?
> 
> And who would you put in his place?


I would not de-throne any of them. I would add a few more to join them.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

I would dethrone Mozart and put in Brahms.

We will never know how much more mature his writing could have become had Amadeus lived 5-10 more years.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

My three favorite composers are Mozart, Beethoven, and Bach, but if I had to make a change, I would drop Bach and add Brahms.


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## BeatriceB (May 3, 2021)

Probably Bach and replace with Schubert.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

Really interesting to see everyone's personal tastes are so different.

For me, I respect Bach's craft but most of his music is too religious for me. I don't listen to him very much (save the Concerti and Coffee Cantata). I totally get why a more religious person would love Bach though.

My trinity is Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven. Just below that are Dvorak, Brahms, Mendelssohn, and Saint-Saens.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

^ Yes, Saint-Saens is definitely a great composer who deserves much more mentioning.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Of those three, I would de-throne Mozart. To be replaced by...?
Probably Haydn, though if we're assessing their influence maybe Debussy should be considered?


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## poconoron (Oct 26, 2011)

I would have to drop Bach............Mozart and Beethoven too dear to me............


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

I'll be Bach...............


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## cybernaut (Feb 6, 2021)

Bulldog said:


> I'd make Bach the King of Classical Music. Beethoven and Mozart would be two of his advisors.


I agree with this.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

I would dethrone Brahms, Mahler, and Sibelius, and replace them with Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven



no, wait a minute...


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Bellerophon said:


> If you had to de-throne one if the big three, Bach, Mozart or Beethoven, which would you choose?
> 
> And who would you put in his place?


It seems absurd to de-throne one of _these_ composers (Bach, Mozart, Beethoven) only to replace with another!!! Such an exercise in futility remains beyond my abilities to perform.


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## Skakner (Oct 8, 2020)

My personal taste would dethrone _*Mozart*_ and replace him with *Brahms*.
I would also try to make room on the podium for _*Mahler*_...


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Kick out Beethoven for Mahler and you end up with my personal top 3. 


(I accidentally added that into yours by clicking the wrong button - apologies)


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

If I had to dethrone one of the three, it would be Mozart. But he's irreplaceable.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Allerius said:


> I really like this transcription as well as it is very accurate to what the score indicates. The pace of many pianists in Beethoven tends to be slower than what Beethoven asks, and what I prefer to hear.


my problem with it (and I love the electric guitar) is that the lack of dynamics makes it sound like an elephant in as China shop. Also those drums were tacky as hell for my taste. I'm always looking for these kind of experiments but to me it's hard to find something convincing, especially with distortion.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

Since my initial comment was deleted, here's the PC version:

Pop culture acolytes would be quite pleased if the big three were replaced with Beyonce, Rihanna, and Kanye.

:tiphat:


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

Ingélou said:


> If I had to dethrone one of the three, it would be Mozart. But he's irreplaceable.


Replacing Mozart would be ludicrous but if it had to be done, I would nominate the following candidates: Wagner, Brahms, Bartók, Stravinsky, Schoenberg, Ligeti. The first two are perhaps most deserving of the honor.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Whichever one has the most annoying fanbase. Probably Bach, then.


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

I will de-throne all of them and I will substitue them with the Franz Liszt, Ferenc Liszt and F. Liszt! :lol:

Seriously now: Leave the GIANTS on their thrones. We are very small to make such decisions...


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

Hugh Gee said:


> Mozart has to go.Too much routine predictability for me. A lot of churned out stuff as well as divine.


Mozart gets my pick too for this exact reason. While there's no denying that Bach churned stuff out too, I find the run of the mill Bach far more interesting than run of the mill Mozart.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

The problem with trying to remove or replace Mozart is that while you might think someone else composed better symphonies or better concertos or better solo piano music, you are still left with his operas that have no competition.


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## jkl (May 4, 2021)

If I really had to then I might remove Beethoven and have Schubert or Brahms, so at least the throne sill has one Baroque, one Classical and then one Romantic each.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

DaveM said:


> The problem with trying to remove or replace Mozart is that while you might think someone else composed better symphonies or better concertos or better solo piano music, you are still left with his operas that have no competition.


To me the piano concertos are his greatest body of work.

Wagner competes with him for opera; no one does for piano concertos.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> Hugh Gee said:
> 
> 
> > Mozart has to go.Too much routine predictability for me.
> ...







I don't know if you ever read what I write, but the sort of "predictability" Huge Gee meant was more like a part of the idiom Mozart worked with, rather than one of his own unique traits. Also, I'll say this again; Classical expressions like his involved dramatic contrast in terms of dynamics and mood in a way that had not been done previously.
K.257: 



 (8:08~10:05)
K.243: 



 (10:43~14:10)


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

I'd replace them all with unknown composers. These and all the other "canonical" composers have had too a long run at the expense of composers whose music has been ignored. 

I'm for new names replacing the old names. I listened today to an unknown Creole composer Edmond Dédé, selections from his opera "Morgiane" and it was very good. It is tragic that so much music has fallen by the wayside while Bach, Beethoven, and Mozart have received thousands of recordings. Do we really need another Beethoven symphony, string quartet or sonata cycle?

I'd be fine if no additional recordings of the well known composers were released and instead unknown composer's music getting their first recordings.

The "Canon Industry" needs to end.


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## Saxman (Jun 11, 2019)

It's not recommended to 'de-throne' someone when they are in the middle of a movement....


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

SanAntone said:


> These and all the other "canonical" composers have had too a long run at the expense of composers whose music has been ignored. I'm for new names replacing the old names.
> The "Canon Industry" needs to end.


I agree that the Canon Industry should end, but I would want the other old names be more thoroughly revived first; Zelenka (secular music), M. Haydn (litanies), Hummel (operas), likewise, C.P.E. Bach, Spohr, for example.



FastkeinBrahms said:


> I am a huge Bach fan, too, however: Not all his work is pure genius, a lot is also "Gebrauchsmusik", with a lot of self-recycled material . No wonder if you have to churn out a new cantata for almost every week for years for your stingy and yet extremely demanding Leipzig employers. Besides, a lot of the texts/lyrics he uses are third rate, mostly amateurish and sometimes involuntarily funny best enjoyed in German by non-German speakers. I feel that a little less exposure to the duopoly of Bach/Händel and a bit more openness to Zelenka and many others would be healthy. Think about the huge number of great Italians beside Vivaldi, for example Porpora, the Scarlattis, or the extremely versatile Rameau, or Lully and Charpentier.





hammeredklavier said:


> "Michael Haydn's music has a thorough competence of technique as well a real sense of theatre (in the broadest sense) that is reflected in Mozart's music. One of the many unfortunate legacies of nineteenth-century biographical writing is the excessive focus on the Wunderkind Mozart and the Incomparable Genius Mozart. In Salzburg, if not throughout his life, Mozart was writing in a lingua franca and many of the features of that language are to be found in Michael Haydn too. That Mozart recognized Michael Haydn's mastery is suggested by a letter he sent to his father from Vienna, asking for the latest symphonies of Michael, so that he could perform them in that city."


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> I agree that the Canon Industry should end, but I would want the other old names be more thoroughly revived first; Zelenka (secular music), M. Haydn (litanies), Hummel (operas), likewise, C.P.E. Bach, Spohr, for example.


I can agree with all those composers, but also would stress those composers whose profile is still lower than all of those who have already achieved some caché.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Olias said:


> I totally get why a more religious person would love Bach though.


I'm a avid enthusiast of religious music, (it's just that Bach's kind isn't always "my ideal"**). I think Bach wrote great religious music (ex. parts of the Lutheran masses, and the passions). But in some places I hate to say his music comes off as slightly "mechanical" (ex. the opening choruses of some of the cantatas, such as BWV80), or somewhat lacks "elegance" (ex. BWV70). I wouldn't blame him too much for these things though, they're more like parts of the idiom he worked with.
**


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## Antwerp Smerle (May 6, 2021)

advokat said:


> Beethoven is the odd man out. To be replaced by Rachmaninov. Then it would be logical - everyone loves Bach, Mozart and Rachmaninov.


I don't love Rachmaninov. I like to listen to a few of his works occasionally but "love" is too strong a word. I often feel that less would be more, which probably explains why the Paganini Rhapsody is my favourite of his works.

My favourite composer is Schubert, so with huge reluctance I would replace Beethoven with him.


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## Amadea (Apr 15, 2021)

I wouldn't de-throne them, it's impossible... I would add Handel. You can dislike them, it's impossible to deny the influence though, everyone took from them, everyone studied them. You can dislike Raphael or Michelangelo or Leonardo, but it's impossible to exclude them from the greatest artists circle, their role was so big and the quality so high, like it or not. It is really just a matter of personal preference to put other ones instead, historically it's impossible. But if I really really had to choose a substitute, even if it's basically impossible, hmmm.... For Bach, Handel would be a good candidate. For Mozart, J. Haydn or M. Haydn. For Beethoven, Schubert/Carl Maria von Weber.
If you ask me what composers I might love more than them, that's another thing. They're actually all three amongst my favs, but if had to replace them, if I was really forced, I would choose Tchaikovsky/Mendelssohn and Verdi over Mozart, Schubert over Beethoven, Handel over Bach.

Honestly, I think the only one who can really compete with Mozart in opera is Verdi.


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## Amadea (Apr 15, 2021)

Red Terror said:


> Since my initial comment was deleted, here's the PC version:
> 
> Pop culture acolytes would be quite pleased if the big three were replaced with Beyonce, Rihanna, and Kanye.
> 
> :tiphat:


That hurts. That hurts so much. Ouch.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Amadea said:


> That hurts. That hurts so much. Ouch.


The three new Bs - Beyonce, Bieber, and Bruno Mars

In my view the most serious contender for the podium is Mendelssohn. This man's music is close to perfection, which is perhaps why some people hate it. I've been called a 'patrician' in the past myself by people who believed in more smoking, more drinking and more risky behaviours, so I kind of get why.

I used to think that Wagner would make for a good "fourth", but recent comparative listening to his most famous orchestral works and the music of Mendelssohn left me with a rather bad taste.

Living in his shadow (Mendelssohn was the most famous composer of the time), Wagner first stole 50% of his greatest music off him (Tannhäuser, Holländer, Meistersinger, Lohengrin) to impress the public, merely salting it with dissonance and peppering with philosophy, and then made sure to destroy Mendelssohn's reputation to appropriate his craft and make place for the name Wagner in history.

It's as if Williams wrote left and right how despicable Holst and Prokofiev were.


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## Amadea (Apr 15, 2021)

Fabulin said:


> The three new Bs - Beyonce, Bieber, and Bruno Mars
> 
> In my view the most serious contender for the podium is Mendelssohn.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't choose Wagner either. Not a good candidate for opera in my opinion. That would be Verdi for me (instead of Mozart).


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Fabulin said:


> The three new Bs - Beyonce, Bieber, and Bruno Mars
> 
> In my view the most serious contender for the podium is Mendelssohn. This man's music is close to perfection, which is perhaps why some people hate it. I've been called a 'patrician' in the past myself by people who believed in more smoking, more drinking and more risky behaviours, so I kind of get why.
> 
> ...


Your use of 'perfection' switches from the subjective to the objective in one sentence - but nobody hates what _they _think is perfect.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

janxharris said:


> Your use of 'perfection' switches from the subjective to the objective in one sentence - but nobody hates what _they _think is perfect.


I have no interest in the word "objective", but maybe I should rephrase that I've encountered such situation countless times, including on this forum, where people said that they disliked something that was too clean, too polite, too beautiful in contrast with their personal experiences. "Too much of a good thing" I've heard some say.

Not everybody who sports a mohawk haircut or a Viking-style beard actually believes that to be the peak of beauty. Some simply identify more with the rebeliousness.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Fabulin said:


> I have no interest in the word "objective", but maybe I should rephrase that I've encountered such situation countless times, including on this forum, where people said that they disliked something that was too clean, too polite, too beautiful in contrast with their personal experiences. They just couldn't relate to what such things were conveying. Had they been blessed with a happier life, they possibly would.
> 
> Not everybody who sports a mohawk haircut or a Viking-style beard actually believes that to be the peak of beauty. Some simply identify more with the rebeliousness.


Okay...certainly one's particular life experiences will have an effect on one's perception of music - and that perspective cannot be ignored...though it often is.


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## Amadea (Apr 15, 2021)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> To me the piano concertos are his greatest body of work.
> 
> Wagner competes with him for opera; no one does for piano concertos.


While I do agree on piano concertos, about Wagner I strongly disagree, he can't compete with Mozart. In my opinion, Verdi is the man (if I HAD to choose a substitute to Mozart).


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Amadea said:


> Verdi is the man.


Too much rum-ti-tum music. Stockhausen's the man.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Amadea said:


> While I do agree on piano concertos, about Wagner I strongly disagree, he can't compete with Mozart. In my opinion, Verdi is the man.





Mandryka said:


> Too much rum-ti-tum music. Stockhausen's the man.


If the subject is opera, there is only one man, his name is Wolfgang. Amadeus. Mozart.


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## Amadea (Apr 15, 2021)

Mandryka said:


> Too much rum-ti-tum music. Stockhausen's the man.


I think if we had to de-throne the big names, we should include a composer who did opera, being opera one of the most popular and important genres in classical. I'm no expert of serial music, or in general of 20th century composers, I'm limited to Stravinsky and Shostakovich, but it seems to me serial composers didn't write operas, am I wrong? So, how would you replace someone like Mozart in the Bach-Mozart-Beethoven triad if not with Verdi? Edit: I had forgotten Pierrot Lunaire, didn't know Licht etc.


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## Amadea (Apr 15, 2021)

SanAntone said:


> If the subject is opera, there is only one man, his name is Wolfgang. Amadeus. Mozart.


I of course was talking in a hypothetical scenario in which I was forced to choose another one instead of Mozart who could possibly compete. In my opinion Verdi is great. Maybe because I'm from his city... lol. What do you think about Verdi vs Mozart? Verdi has the strong passions of romanticisms on his side.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

All the Mozart operas are too compromised apart from Figaro. I mean, Magic Flute’s kindergarten music, Don Giovanni has too much sex and violence and that ridiculous self righteous coda, Cosi fan Tutte is boring as hell after the interval - and nobody bothers with any of the others.


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## Amadea (Apr 15, 2021)

Mandryka said:


> All the Mozart operas are too compromised apart from Figaro. I mean, Magic Flute's kindergarten music, Don Giovanni has too much sex and violence and that ridiculous self righteous coda, Cosi fan Tutte is boring as hell after the interval - and nobody bothers with any of the others.


I didn't ask you your opinions on his works, I asked you who would you choose to replace him thinking of opera.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Amadea said:


> I didn't ask you your opinions on his works, I asked you who would you choose to replace him thinking of opera.


Karlheinz Stockhausen


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Amadea said:


> I think if we had to de-throne the big names, we should include a composer who did opera, being opera one of the most popular and important genres in classical. I'm no expert of serial music, or in general of 20th century composers, I'm limited to Stravinsky and Shostakovich, but it seems to me serial composers didn't write operas, am I wrong?


Yes, you are wrong.......................


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## Amadea (Apr 15, 2021)

Bulldog said:


> Yes, you are wrong.......................


I am reading the list of Stockhausen's works and I don't see any opera  provide an alternative composer please. Edit: found it, listening to Licht. I'd define it... _interesting._


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Berg - Lulu. Among others.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Amadea said:


> I am reading the list of Stockhausen's works and I don't see any opera  provide an alternative composer please.


Stockhausen's Licht is a seven-part opera that lasts about 29 hours.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> Too much rum-ti-tum music. Stockhausen's the man.





Mandryka said:


> All the Mozart operas are too compromised apart from Figaro. I mean, Magic Flute's kindergarten music, Don Giovanni has too much sex and violence and that ridiculous self righteous coda, Cosi fan Tutte is boring as hell after the interval - and nobody bothers with any of the others.


Nothing like a little humor to start off my day.


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## Amadea (Apr 15, 2021)

Bulldog said:


> Stockhausen's Licht is a seven-part opera that lasts about 29 hours.


No offense, I'm just curious, how can you listen to _that thing_ for 29 hours...?


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Amadea said:


> No offense, I'm just curious, how can you listen to _that thing_ for 29 hours...?


Over seven days.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> I don't know if you ever read what I write, but the sort of "predictability" Huge Gee meant was more like a part of the idiom Mozart worked with, rather than one of his own unique traits. Also, I'll say this again; Classical expressions like his involved dramatic contrast in terms of dynamics and mood in a way that had not been done previously.
> K.257:
> 
> 
> ...


Don't worry Hammered I read your posts 
Maybe not all of them, but I generally I do.

I have a love-hate relationship with the classical period. I think 'hate' is a strong word because it's always well-crafted and never aurally offensive, but that 'predictability', while admittedly a part of the idiom, often sounds sorta drab to my ears. To be honest, it's always on a piece to piece basis for me


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## Amadea (Apr 15, 2021)

Mandryka said:


> Over seven days.


Let me rephrase it: how can you tolerate that music for more than one hour without going crazy?


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## SeptimalTritone (Jul 7, 2014)

Over time, you get acclimated to Schoenberg/Boulez/Stockhausen/others by listening and getting a feel for what makes the music tick at the gut level. It's not easy at the beginning and may take a while to get used to, but the musical experience is worth it. You get more out of it by acclimating to it.

Of course, it's not for everyone and there's no imperative to like it but I still think it's worth pursuing.

I think that the best introduction to atonal Schoenberg would be Pierrot Lunaire 



, a colorful and dramatic piece for voice and a unique chamber ensemble - this piece has a whimsical dark humor and pastoral color.


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## Amadea (Apr 15, 2021)

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> I have a love-hate relationship with the classical period. I think 'hate' is a strong word because it's always well-crafted and never aurally offensive, but that 'predictability', while admittedly a part of the idiom, often sounds sorta drab to my ears. To be honest, it's always on a piece to piece basis for me


Speaking of, some time ago I found this short 5 min interview with Rob Kaplow which explains how Mozart takes different directions than expected and has deceptive simplicity. You might find it interesting: https://www.npr.org/2009/08/13/111630915/mozarts-deceptive-simplicity?t=1618426979559


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Amadea said:


> Let me rephrase it: how can you tolerate that music for more than one hour without going crazy?


What makes you think I'm not crazy?

Mozart at his best is really unpredictable - the modulations are just unbelievable - he takes you far far away from the home key and brings you back with such grace. He is an amazing composer - I fully understand Hammeredklavier's enthusiasm for Mozart in fact, and to some extent I share it.


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## Amadea (Apr 15, 2021)

Mandryka said:


> What makes you think I'm not crazy?
> 
> Mozart at his best is really unpredictable - the modulations are just unbelievable - he takes you far far away from the home key and brings you back with such grace. He is an amazing composer - I fully understand Hammeredklavier's enthusiasm for Mozart in fact, and to some extent I share it.


Except Stockhausen you already mentioned, what other composers do you love?


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Amadea said:


> Except Stockhausen you already mentioned, what other composers do you love?


 Machaut. Sainte Colombe. Peter Ablitzer.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Amadea said:


> I of course was talking in a hypothetical scenario in which I was forced to choose another one instead of Mozart who could possibly compete. In my opinion Verdi is great. Maybe because I'm from his city... lol. What do you think about Verdi vs Mozart? Verdi has the strong passions of romanticisms on his side.


Verdi is my 2nd favorite opera composer, so no argument from me whenever Verdi is praised.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Wagner competes with him for opera; no one does for piano concertos.


There's a poll on the "greatest opera composer" here at TC, and Wagner is currently winning by a wide margin, followed by Mozart and Verdi, that are technically tied. These three composers received much more votes than any other, including Puccini, Rossini or Strauss. *Here's the link to it*.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> All the Mozart operas are too compromised apart from Figaro. I mean, Magic Flute's kindergarten music: .


Magic Flute's 'kindergarten music':


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> All the Mozart operas are too compromised apart from Figaro. I mean, Magic Flute's kindergarten music, Don Giovanni has too much sex and violence and that ridiculous self righteous coda, Cosi fan Tutte is boring as hell after the interval - and nobody bothers with any of the others.


Yeah, well, he's no Stockhausen.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Kindergarten music






You can even see the kids on the clip.


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## Amadea (Apr 15, 2021)

DaveM said:


> Magic Flute's 'kindergarten music':


Also "Ach, ich fühl's": 




So kindergarten.


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## NewEnglandComposer (Apr 28, 2021)

I would dump Mozart and add Haydn. A lot of the sound qualities of Mozart was done first by Haydn. Haydn also invented the two most important orchestral groups of all time: the string quartet and the symphony.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

And too much sex in Don Giovanni






(I think this is brilliant staging -- it fits the music so well. A revelation.)


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## Amadea (Apr 15, 2021)

Mandryka said:


> Kindergarten music. You can even see the kids on the clip.


Those are Papageno's arias though, not the entire opera.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Amadea said:


> Those are Papageno's arias though, not the entire opera.


Aw, Mandryka's just winding you up. Of the two, I'd rather write kindergarten operas than insane asylum ones.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

SanAntone said:


> Aw, Mandryka's just winding you up. Of the two, I'd rather write kindergarten operas than insane asylum ones.


I've had enough of trolling. Good night.


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## Amadea (Apr 15, 2021)

Mandryka said:


> And too much sex in Don Giovanni


Would you think the same with a different staging though? My first views of operas, expecially this one, were accurately selected amongst the ones with "traditional costumes" precisely for this reason, modern stagings offer excessive interpretations which can really ruin an opera if it's the first time you see it. Anyway, it's Don Giovanni... not Saint Giovanni


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## Amadea (Apr 15, 2021)

NewEnglandComposer said:


> I would dump Mozart and add Haydn. A lot of the sound qualities of Mozart was done first by Haydn. Haydn also invented the two most important orchestral groups of all time: the string quartet and the symphony.


If hammeredklavier sees this... I wish you good luck :')
Anyway, if that's your reasoning, then we should add who invented opera, waltzer etc etc. Not necessarily who started a genre took it to its perfection  welcome to this forum.


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## Amadea (Apr 15, 2021)

SanAntone said:


> Aw, Mandryka's just winding you up.


I know people who really think like that though.


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## NewEnglandComposer (Apr 28, 2021)

Amadea said:


> If hammeredklavier sees this... I wish you good luck :')
> Anyway, if that's your reasoning, then we should add who invented opera, waltzer etc etc. Not necessarily who started a genre took it to its perfection  welcome to this forum.


You beat them by seven minutes 

Im not a historian by any means, and hammeredklavier kindly linked me to a series of posts on this very subject that I will review soon.

That being said, I've listened to the music of both composers and *most* of the music I've listened to by Mozart is very similar to *most* of Haydn's music. Mozart does have more advanced concepts in some pieces. Given the prolific output of each composer, it's also fair to say I've only scratched the surface of both.

I would separate opera from classical music IMO. They very different to my ears.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> I have a love-hate relationship with the classical period. I think 'hate' is a strong word because it's always well-crafted and never aurally offensive, but that 'predictability', while admittedly a part of the idiom, often sounds sorta drab to my ears. To be honest, it's always on a piece to piece basis for me


To each his own. I also appreciate a lot of Bach, but I think "the doctrine of the affections" makes things feel a bit "static" sometimes.


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## Amadea (Apr 15, 2021)

NewEnglandComposer said:


> You beat them by seven minutes
> 
> Im not a historian by any means, and hammeredklavier kindly linked me to a series of posts on this very subject that I will review soon.
> 
> ...


Clearly Mozart and J. Haydn influenced each other (and M. Haydn as well) but Mozart was more advanced in his use of chromaticism and dissonances (hear his six quartets dedicated to Haydn if you haven't, the n.19 even anticipates Shostakovich and influenced Beethoven's Grosse Fuge, also his string quintet in g minor is amazing). In the case of Mozart we cannot really separate opera and classical music, because Mozart wrote in an "operatic style" even for instruments in other genres and used symphonic elements in opera which influenced also non-opera composers. I get you don't want to count operas (in which he was superior to everyone in his times), ok, but you don't count the fact Mozart basically developed the concerto, expecially the piano concerto, pretty much alone. He was also essential for symphonies and sonatas, the way instruments dialogue with each other is superb. In sonatas, if today piano plays accompaniment for violin, he is the one to "blame". His melodism was way more developed, his language sensitive and expressive and I don't know where romantics' melodism would be without him (Beethoven was not a great melodist), etc. etc. He did so much, but since he did it gradually and not came up suddenly with innovative symphonies like Beethoven, many listeners don't get what he has done I think. I can't totally get it either and I am trying to study him... Also, he influenced so many more than J. Haydn. I agree we shouldn't underrate Haydn, but I think to put him instead of Mozart is a little excessive. Would J. Haydn write these?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Amadea said:


> the n.19 even anticipates Shostakovich and influenced Beethoven's Grosse Fuge, also his string quintet in g minor is amazing).


again;

"The traditional Baroque idiom that is developed in this fugue for two pianos lays great stress on dissonant chromatic semitones and appoggiaturas. The intensity of the fugal writing is startling, foreshadowing the fugal textures in some of Beethoven's later works, such as the first movement of the Piano Sonata in C Minor, op.111, which exploits a variant of the same idiom. Beethoven was so taken by this piece, in fact, that he copied out the entire fugue in score." 
< Mozart's Piano Music / William Kinderman / P.46 >

"the fact remains that the "Great Fugue" is "a controlled violence without parallel in music before the twentieth century and anticipated only by Mozart in the C minor fugue for two pianos (K.426)."
< Opera's Second Death / Slavoj Žižek, Mladen Dolar / P.128>






"What then is "Romantic"? How far back should its beginnings, in music, be pushed? To 1793, when a review of a new work by "Citizen Méhul" described him as a Romantic? Or further - to year 1780-81, the year of Mozart's Idomeneo, a work whose use of orchestral colour for structural and psychological purposes anticipates nineteenth-century Romantic opera?" <Berlioz: The Making of an Artist 1803-1832 , By David Cairns , P. 193>


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Amadea said:


> Would you think the same with a different staging though? My first views of operas, expecially this one, were accurately selected amongst the ones with "traditional costumes" precisely for this reason, modern stagings offer excessive interpretations which can really ruin an opera if it's the first time you see it. Anyway, it's Don Giovanni... not Saint Giovanni


I think the production is totally convincing. The music fits the interpretation - even the pulse of the music matches the pulse of Don Giovanni's thrusts. Love Calixto Bieito.


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

I would leave all three in the pantheon, but would elevate Tchaikovsky and possibly Dvorak to full membership in the pantheon of musical gods. Admittedly I have more respect than affection for most of Mozart's and Bach's output (with some notable exceptions e.g. Bach's cello suites, which I adore). I absolutely adore most, if not all, of Beethoven's, Tchaikovsky's and Dvorak's music.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

haziz said:


> I would leave all three in the pantheon, but would elevate Tchaikovsky and possibly Dvorak to full membership in the pantheon of musical gods. Admittedly I have more respect than affection for most of Mozart's and Bach's output (with some notable exceptions e.g. Bach's cello suites, which I adore). I absolutely adore most, if not all, of Beethoven's, Tchaikovsky's and Dvorak's music.


I agree partly, although Bach is #1 for me and Tchaikovsky wouldn't be anywhere near this group...but Haydn and Handel would.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> All the Mozart operas are too compromised apart from Figaro. I mean, Magic Flute's kindergarten music, Don Giovanni has too much sex and violence and that ridiculous self righteous coda, Cosi fan Tutte is boring as hell after the interval - and nobody bothers with any of the others.


Opera is not my thing, and nor is most of Mozart's music, but I think some parts of Don Giovanni and The Magic Flute are relatively good music. But the less I think of the stupid libretto the better - I enjoy the music at best when I do not understand the words at all. I have seen Figaro, The Flute and Cosi on stage sung in my own language - that was indeed awful.

Bach is my no. one and Beethoven my no. two. Mozart is not even among my nos. twenty-fives.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I would dethrone Beethoven. I don't find him as spiritually enlightened as the other two, and while I don't love him nearly as much, I'd put Debussy in his place.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

If it's about spiritually enlightenment, I respectfully submit to replace Mozart and Beethoven by the Dalai Lama and the Pope. Bach as fifth Evangelist might be given a pass.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Bellerophon said:


> If you had to de-throne one if the big three, Bach, Mozart or Beethoven, which would you choose?
> 
> And who would you put in his place?


Mozart was physically the most petite person out of the three, so I would ask him to share a chair with Beethoven. Then there would be a spare chair, which I can ask Haydn or Handel to take.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I would dethrone Beethoven. I don't find him as spiritually enlightened as the other two, and while I don't love him nearly as much, I'd put Debussy in his place.


This is very true. Bach and Mozart channel the divine, while Beethoven encapsulates the trials and triumphs of what it means to be human.

That said, dethrone the three of them and install Wagner. :devil:


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## Clinicalyabrasiv (Apr 21, 2021)

dethrone Beethoven, and put Chopin in his place


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I would dethrone Mozart and put in Brahms.
> 
> We will never know how much more mature his writing could have become had Amadeus lived 5-10 more years.


How much more mature can you get than K516, or Le Nozze Di Figaro?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Mandryka said:


> And too much sex in Don Giovanni
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Somehow I don't find a guy nuzzling the crotch of a floozy in a slinky metallic miniskirt and a leopard top in a dark, grungy barroom especially compatible with the lightness, brightness and genteel symmetries of 18th-century high Classical music. Couldn't we at least have a sax and an occasional blue note?


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

Of course JS Bach, what throne? of the mongols or chairman Borats?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

*Before this gets out of hand, I am temporarily closing the thread for a cool down period.*


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

The moderators/admins team decided to delete a number of recent posts. Once more a reminder:



> Be polite to your fellow members. If you disagree with them, please state your opinion in a »civil« and respectful manner. This applies to all communication taking place on talkclassical.com, whether by means of posts, private messages, visitor messages, blogs and social groups.


If you feel someone's post is not in line with this, please do not respond in a similar way, but report the post and let us decide how to handle it.

The thread is open for continued discussion.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I would dethrone Mozart and put in Brahms.


This is the only way to stop Brahms from taking over someone else's property:


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Couchie said:


> This is very true. Bach and Mozart channel the divine, while Beethoven encapsulates the trials and triumphs of what it means to be human.
> That said, dethrone the three of them and install Wagner. :devil:


This is very true. Wagner channels the divine and encapsulates the trials and triumphs of what it means to be human.


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