# Orchestral Vibrato



## rigidwithfear (Nov 13, 2020)

There is a lot of talk online about vocal vibrato but not much about orchetsral vibrato. I wonder what other people think about orchestral vibrato. I will nail my colours to the mast: I think that there is too much vibrato and that it spoils the music. I like vibrato used expressively, not continuously. I like to hear the harmonic progression of the music and this is often obscured by non-stop string vibrato. And solo woodwind passages are marred by sometimes comical amounts of vibrato.
So tell me, do other people struggle with this or is it just me; am I just a miserable old grouch?


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

You're a miserable old grouch. Used properly and with care, vibrato adds a depth to the color that is noticeably missing when the players don't vibrate. It's one of those things that makes a fine orchestra sound better than amateurs. It might be better suited to woodwinds and strings, as brass vibrato is very much out of style. I was just listening to the Brahms 1st with the USSR State Symphony Orchestra under Svetlanov. That big horn solo in the finale was played in the Russian style: lots of vibrato and it just sounds so wrong. I also have a set of Mozart symphonies in HIP, non-vibrato style and it grates on the nerves. That string sound is just raw, edgy and ugly. There's no way Mozart would have liked that sound, I don't care what the so-called experts say. So yes, vibrato is necessary - used carefully. The worst use of vibrato comes from older singers who've completely lost control. Like this:


----------



## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

mbhaub said:


> You're a miserable old grouch. Used properly and with care, vibrato adds a depth to the color that is noticeably missing when the players don't vibrate. It's one of those things that makes a fine orchestra sound better than amateurs. It might be better suited to woodwinds and strings, as brass vibrato is very much out of style. I was just listening to the Brahms 1st with the USSR State Symphony Orchestra under Svetlanov. That big horn solo in the finale was played in the Russian style: lots of vibrato and it just sounds so wrong. I also have a set of Mozart symphonies in HIP, non-vibrato style and it grates on the nerves. That string sound is just raw, edgy and ugly. There's no way Mozart would have liked that sound, I don't care what the so-called experts say. So yes, vibrato is necessary - used carefully. The worst use of vibrato comes from older singers who've completely lost control. Like this:


Oh good grief mbhaub....As one who use to play in a backing band in social clubs to earn a crust for a while, this brings back memories..I love it..... I'd love to hear her sing Gershwin's 'I got Rhythm'.


----------



## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

As a wind player I find it interesting that all of the winds play with vibrato except the clarinets.

I never could understand why.


----------



## rigidwithfear (Nov 13, 2020)

mbhaub said:


> You're a miserable old grouch. Used properly and with care, vibrato adds a depth to the color that is noticeably missing when the players don't vibrate. It's one of those things that makes a fine orchestra sound better than amateurs. It might be better suited to woodwinds and strings, as brass vibrato is very much out of style. I was just listening to the Brahms 1st with the USSR State Symphony Orchestra under Svetlanov. That big horn solo in the finale was played in the Russian style: lots of vibrato and it just sounds so wrong. I also have a set of Mozart symphonies in HIP, non-vibrato style and it grates on the nerves. That string sound is just raw, edgy and ugly. There's no way Mozart would have liked that sound, I don't care what the so-called experts say. So yes, vibrato is necessary - used carefully. The worst use of vibrato comes from older singers who've completely lost control. Like this:


Ouch! I only managed three seconds of Mrs Miller.

Thanks for confirming the miserable old grouch thing. It's as I thought. But it may be too late for me. I boarded the HIP train years ago and I'm afraid I rather like it.


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Vibrato is an expressive device - much like dynamics and articulation.....it adds color, direction to the tone, to the phrasing...in US, all woodwinds, except clarinet use it...trumpets yes, trombones, sometimes....

The Russians and Czech horn players use[d] vibrato, and it takes some getting used to, but it can be very expressive and colorful...
the HIP nasal, flat [tone, not pitch], gut string sound, sans, vibrato makes me queasy....I can't deal with it....like listening to a dead fish....


----------



## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I'm not a fan of vibrato - the less the better.


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

arpeggio said:


> As a wind player I find it interesting that all of the winds play with vibrato except the clarinets.
> 
> I never could understand why.


Saxophones too sound awful with vibrato. Hard to explain why.


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

arpeggio said:


> As a wind player I find it interesting that all of the winds play with vibrato except the clarinets.
> 
> I never could understand why.


You want vibrato? You _got _vibrato!


----------



## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

mbhaub said:


> Saxophones too sound awful with vibrato. Hard to explain why.


Maybe because the rich chocolately sound of the clarinet & sax doesn't benefit from that extra warmth in the way the thinner, nasal sound of the oboe, or silvery purity of the flute does.

Strings need just a little, all the time for the reasons you said. And then certain _dolce[\i] passages have much more and other passages - I'm thinking of chunks of Shostakovich, for example - benefit from 'no vib', as we write in the parts!_


----------



## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

mbhaub said:


> Saxophones too sound awful with vibrato. Hard to explain why.


Because it makes them sound like Russian horn players? Seriously though, do you mean classical players?


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

EdwardBast said:


> Because it makes them sound like Russian horn players? Seriously though, do you mean classical players?


Yes, I think we're mostly talking classical styles. There are actually quite a few serious orchestral works with sax parts, and woe to the conductor who hires a jazzer who doesn't play classical well. I recently played a Bolero where the soprano sax player was excellent, but oh boy, the alto sax player had a mile wide vibrato that may have worked in jazz band but was wholly inappropriate in Ravel. It needs a light vibrato.


----------



## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

I had no idea that vibrato was/could be applied to any instrument except a stringed one.


----------



## rigidwithfear (Nov 13, 2020)

Bulldog said:


> I'm not a fan of vibrato - the less the better.


I very much agree with you.
I have a set of Schubert quartets that have a very light touch of vibrato and it sounds alright to me. At the other extreme I listened to the Beethoven quartets recorded by the Suske quartet. Although very musical in every other respect I found them unlistenable because of the extreme and constant vibrato.
Someone once referred to vibrato as being something that should be used as an occasional touch of colour rather than becoming a permanent affliction.


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Vibrato is an expressive device...it should be varied, according to the phrasing...used wisely it adds great dimension to the tone, the flow, the direction of the music...
the one speed, one amplitude, constant _wah-wah-wah_ style does not, in general, serve the musical expression...it's like an electronic switch - on or off - no variation....it becomes distracting, like a lousy tone, or poor intonation....


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Open Book said:


> I had no idea that vibrato was/could be applied to any instrument except a stringed one.


You bet! There are percussionists who will actually wave their hands above the keys on a glockenspiel or near a triangle to impart a sort of vibrato - or so they think. Maybe it works. There's a timpanist I know in a big orchestra who brandishes his mallets above the drum head fully believing it adds a vibrato to the sound. It looks ridiculous, of course. About the only instrument that cannot play with vibrato is the piano - but I'm sure someone has tried.


----------



## Enthalpy (Apr 15, 2020)

arpeggio said:


> As a wind player I find it interesting that all of the winds play with vibrato except the clarinets.
> 
> I never could understand why.


The note height on the clarinet is stiff, much more so than on the saxophone, oboe, bassoon. The clarinettist can alter the height a bit, but it changes more the timbre. Feasible, with a result not so nice. And maybe too, clarinettists seek purity in their instrument's sound, which vibrato defeats .

On the flute too, the note height is stiff. What flautists do is mainly a vibration of the sound intensity, rather than of the height.

On all adequate instruments, vibrato is a strong expressive means that should be used consciously, controlling the speed and amplitude. It becomes too easily automatic on the violin, the saxophone, the bassoon.


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Enthalpy said:


> The note height on the clarinet is stiff, much more so than on the saxophone, oboe, bassoon. The clarinettist can alter the height a bit, but it changes more the timbre.


My understanding of woodwind vibrato is that a player uses their lip to lower the pitch and then return it to the pitch's center instead of heightening the pitch (that's how I was taught to do it on a saxophone), so I don't see why that would be a problem on a clarinet. But maybe you know better about this than I do. My clarinet is broken, so I can't confirm it.


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Here is a short video from Eddie Daniels on clarinet vibrato. He plays both classical and jazz, so he has an interesting perspective.


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Manxfeeder said:


> My understanding of woodwind vibrato is that a player uses their lip to lower the pitch and then return it to the pitch's center instead of heightening the pitch (that's how I was taught to do it on a saxophone), so I don't see why that would be a problem on a clarinet. But maybe you know better about this than I do. My clarinet is broken, so I can't confirm it.


That's a great way to develop a Billy Goat kind of sound. Good vibrato comes mostly from using the diaphragm and to a lesser extent the throat. A lip vibrato is to be avoided.


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

mbhaub said:


> That's a great way to develop a Billy Goat kind of sound. Good vibrato comes mostly from using the diaphragm and to a lesser extent the throat. A lip vibrato is to be avoided.


Are you referring to clarinets? I know you do that on a flute, maybe an oboe. I know there are two vibrato techniques on a clarinet, amplitude (diaphragm) and pitch vibrato. On the Eddie Daniels video, he does both, but his lip vibrato doesn't sound like a goat (though Sidney Bechet does, but that's an extreme vibrato).


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Find a bassoonist and ask them to do a wide lip vibrato - it's hysterically funny! Sounds like an 85 year-old player I knew.


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

mbhaub said:


> Find a bassoonist and ask them to do a wide lip vibrato - it's hysterically funny! Sounds like an 85 year-old player I knew.


Right, the lip/jaw vibrato is not used in classical/symphonic performance...it is quite distracting and excessive....diaphragm vibrato is really a misnomer - the variance in air speed and pressure is created by the chest, upper thoracic, throat muscles....but it is created by the respiratory system, not mechanically by the mouth, lips or jaw....


----------



## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

I know this thread is about indtrumental vibrato, but I have a question about vocal vibrato: it's only used by soloists, right? Members of a choir do not use vibrato, is there a reason for that?


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Actually, orchestral wind players don't use vibrato (much) when playing tutti or even a small section; just play the straight tone. I suppose it's an acoustical thing with choirs, too: if everyone uses the vibrato you have a lot of tone variance at different rates and the resulting sound would be awful: kind of like an out of tune group. When orchestras tune, the oboist also plays the tune straight.


----------



## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

mbhaub said:


> Actually, orchestral wind players don't use vibrato (much) when playing tutti or even a small section; just play the straight tone. I suppose it's an acoustical thing with choirs, too: if everyone uses the vibrato you have a lot of tone variance at different rates and the resulting sound would be awful: kind of like an out of tune group.


I see that, yet it works for strings. String players are always using vibrato. Except for the HIP proponents you mentioned. Which set of Mozart symphonies in HIP style do you have that you don't like?


----------



## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Open Book said:


> I know this thread is about indtrumental vibrato, but I have a question about vocal vibrato: it's only used by soloists, right? Members of a choir do not use vibrato, is there a reason for that?


It depends, choirs can use vibrato. Try listening to old Klemperer recordings






Just like for instruments, it's an expressive device. Its use will depend on the music and the performers. No matter the instrument (vocalist included), it is a general rule that soloists will use more vibrato.


----------



## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Actually, there is a tradition in England of clarinets using vibrato , such as the famous English clarinet soloist Reginald Kell , who died many years ago. I'm not sure it's still used there, though .
I must say it sounded rather odd to me before I got used to it .


----------

