# Robert Schumann



## World Violist

The poetic genius, and, when it comes down to it, the greatest Romantic in music history. He was born into a bookseller's family, for goodness' sake. So really, what do all of you think of Robert Schumann?

He was amazing at his piano miniatures and pieces for one instrument and piano, especially voice, with which he effectively became the successor to Schubert as the great songwriter of the century. 

His symphonies and concerti are very poetic and romantic, but the scoring and orchestration are terrible. Beyond that, I really see nothing wrong at all with Schumann.

And for those of you who can't get over the fact that he had multiple personalities, get over it. If all you can think of is his mental state... my case is settled.


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## ChamberNut

Absolutely love Schumann! I think he was the most Romantic of the Romantics  

Love some of the solo piano pieces I have heard, and love all 4 symphonies. I will soon have Piano Sonatas 1 & 2 added to my collection, it's on backorder. He's in my Top 5 favorites of composers.


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## World Violist

The cello concerto is very good, too. I'm going to try getting Menuhin's recording of the violin concerto (Enescu conducting) and some of the piano miniatures. What's the best recording of the piano concerto? Clara should've lived longer...


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## BuddhaBandit

I like Schumann, but I prefer Schubert for lieder. However, I love the _Carnaval_ suite... one of my favorite piano tone poems (after Mussorgsky's _Pictures in an Exhibition_).


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## BuddhaBandit

By the way, fun (or not-so-fun) Schumann family fact: Brahms was madly in love with Clara Schumann at the time of Bob's death.


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## World Violist

But afterward Brahms got over it. Brahms was more in love with Clara during Robert's stay at the asylum. Brahms stayed with the Schumanns to help Clara take care of the children and fell in love with Clara. Then, when Robert died, they started to drift apart, and that sort of thing.


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## BuddhaBandit

Indeed, I have heard that. I know that while he was in love Brahms used Clara to test out his new music (she was a virtuoso pianist)... did that aspect of the relationship survive after they started to drift apart?

Oh, and... 
Schumann Fun Fact #2: Schumann's reputation spread very slowly. Story goes, at one of Clara's piano recitals, after she had finished the program, an audience member approached Robert and asked, "Herr Schumann, are you musically inclined, too?"


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## ChamberNut

His Piano Concerto in A minor is my personal favorite among all piano concerti.


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## World Violist

Brahms always sent his music to his friends for critique, etc. Clara and Joachim were among his greatest life-long friends, so naturally Brahms would send everything to her, right up until her death pretty much.

Anyway. Now back to ROBERT SCHUMANN. I've not heard the piano concerto very much, I'm listening to it now on YouTube. It sounds very beautiful, I'll need to buy it.


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## Rondo

The Piano Conerto in a is a masterpiece! I also have symphony no. 4 conducted by Gunter Wand and I could almost say the same about it.


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## G-string

i think he is a master of the teasing climax and his strings are to die for


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## coloneljessop

Apparently Mendelssohn had an eye for Clara too!! Mendelssohn conducted alot of Schumann's works.What a sad end R.S. had.Mental illness was in the family as his oldest son died in a mental asylum too.


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## Bach

Wonderful composer - vastly under appreciated. From his cryptic little piano works to lush symphonic treats - Schumann certainly conquered _my_ heart.


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## BuddhaBandit

While the symphonies and concerti (piano and cello) are great, my favorite work by Schumann is his *Carnaval*, a piano suite. It's some of the best piano tone-painting around.


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## confuoco

Personally, Schumann is the first comprehensible romantic composer for me. And he influenced Brahms so much! It is evident for example in the Piano Concerto No. 1.

From Schumann's work I love especially Piano Concerto, no doubt one of the very best works in the genre. I like the beautiful Andante espressivo inside the first movement. And the third movement with its spontaneous joy and vitality! Cello Concerto is wonderful, too, very deep and emotional.


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## Lisztfreak

I can say only good things! A true master. 

His piano works are maybe not as thunderous as Liszt's, but are almost as masterful. Especially the Three Romances, Fantasie, Waldszenen, Carnaval... And he wrote a tremendous Piano Sonata. The No.2
The symphonies are excellent, I love the 1st and the 4th. I've heard better orchestrators than him, but that is almost irrelevant when I listen to this music.
Dichterliebe is a supreme achievement. My favourite.
As are the Concertos.


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## Sid James

I agree with the above statements. He was a great Romantic and he influenced many composers, like Brahms, Grieg and Joachim.

The only work I have on disc by him is the _*Piano Concerto*_. It may not be the most virtuostic concerto in the repertoire, but its poetry and sublime statements make up for that. As stated above, it is also very symphonic, presaging the Brahms concertos.

Recently, I also heard the _*Manfred Overture*_ & the _*Symphony No. 4*_ on radio. The overture is one of the best concerto overtures, very dramatic and epic. So is the 4th, which seems very innovative, as it is in four continuous movements.

It is sad how he ended his days in an asylum. Perhaps a movie should be made about the man, he had such a troubled life, struggled quite a bit with depression. He seems more human than other composers because of this. He was also a great pianist, somewhat eclipsed by his wife. I read that he built a contraption to play the piano better & it backfired, it actually damaged his finger...


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## World Violist

Andre said:


> It is sad how he ended his days in an asylum. Perhaps a movie should be made about the man, he had such a troubled life, struggled quite a bit with depression. He seems more human than other composers because of this. He was also a great pianist, somewhat eclipsed by his wife. I read that he built a contraption to play the piano better & it backfired, it actually damaged his finger...


I believe a movie has been made of him... someone might want to check; don't quote me on it!

About this contraption: it was made to strengthen his fingers and make them more independent. It incidentally not just damaged but completely ruined a finger on his right hand (I believe it was the middle, if I'm not mistaken). So after that he was totally ruined as a pianist. His wife was the idol of the day for the piano.

I saw the New York Philharmonic under Lorin Maazel play Schumann's fourth symphony some time ago (recently). Closest I've ever come to falling asleep during a concert, I'll be ashamed to admit. And it wasn't for lack of sleep, either!


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## JTech82

I'm not a big fan of Schumann. His Piano Concerto is a great piece, but his symphonies don't do much for me.


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## Artemis

Robert Schumann was the last of the great 19th Composers I decided to take a close look at, after Beethoven, Schubert, Chopin, Mendelssohn, Liszt, Brahms, Bruckner, Tchaikovsky, Wagner, Mahler (part 20th C).

This was because the others, at least at the time I started the long venture, seemed to offer a better overall package, more in tune with my tastes etc. I had of course heard Schumann’s PC and a few other pieces which I enjoyed, but I was content to leave things there until I had carried out a fuller “audit” of what the other composers on the above list had to offer.

A few years ago when I finally got round to reading up on Schumann I discovered a generally strong interest among message board participants elsewhere. This enthusiasm was catching and the more I listened to Schumann the more I enjoyed his works. He soon became one of my overall favourites, and I became a “completist” in terms of acquiring just about everything he wrote. 

Insofar that it is possible to come up with an "objective" list of the greatest composers, based on general popularity and esteem, I would place him in the top 10 (ahead of Liszt, Chopin, Mahler, Bruckner). I would not wish to get into any arguments with anyone over this matter of judgement, as if someone else for example thinks that Chopin or Brahms is better, I can easily live with that as I used to believe it too. 

What I like especially about Schumann is that the sound of his music unique, and given half a chance it soon grows on you. The quality is generally very high, and the volume of his output is manageable with little or no excess baggage. Unlike some other Romantics, I do not find any of his works over long and drawn out. His works cover most of the main genres, and this is something I greatly appreciate and admire as I am not just interested in orchestral music. The latter is really nice to start with but most classical fans who know what they are talking about generally like a cross-spectrum of genres, and do not just stay stuck in one rut. 

His piano solo works are in my view of extremely high quality and generally outshine most of the competition. Of his Op 1-28 piano solo works, my favourite is the Fantasy in C Major, Op 17. I love all of his symphonies. His PC and Cello concerto are wonderful, as too is his VC which is more subtle and intriguing than all the usual better known stodge a la Beethoven, Brahms etc. His song cycles are very enjoyable, Dichterliebe being my favourite. I especially love his chamber works, in particular the Piano Quintet. There are many other individual works I like including the Konzertstucke, Op 92, and the various overtures.


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## Bach

Schumann's piano music is second to none. A thinking man's Chopin. (far more deep and meaningful than any of Liszt's output - sorry Lisztfreak)

His symphonies, Jtech, are not especially admired and are certainly not representative of his musical achievements.


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## World Violist

Bach said:


> Schumann's piano music is second to none. A thinking man's Chopin. (far more deep and meaningful than any of Liszt's output - sorry Lisztfreak)
> 
> His symphonies, Jtech, are not especially admired and are certainly not representative of his musical achievements.


Not to mention his orchestration is outright horrible. Just throwing that out there...


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## Bach

Which is odd considering he writes so well for the piano and voice.. not like Beethoven who didn't write well for anything..


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## World Violist

Bach said:


> Which is odd considering he writes so well for the piano and voice.. not like Beethoven who didn't write well for anything..


Well, it's one thing to write for piano; it's another thing entirely to write for a whole orchestra. I think there were just too many parts for Schumann to handle (every pun that is remotely possible was probably intended, by the way).


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## Bach

But a lot of inferior composers can handle it fine..


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## Artemis

World Violist said:


> Not to mention his orchestration is outright horrible. Just throwing that out there...


Could you elaborate on exactly what you mean by "his orchestration is outright horrible"? And can you provide any modern musicological opionion to support this argument as opposed to the tired misconceptions of old?


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## Bach

Just doesn't sound very good. Lots of funny doubling and lacking in tonal colour. Symphony No. 4 was certainly better..


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## Bach

Yes, and minimal interplay - good point WV.


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## World Violist

Artemis said:


> Could you elaborate on exactly what you mean by "his orchestration is outright horrible"? And can you provide any modern musicological opionion to support this argument as opposed to the tired misconceptions of old?


There is very little color about it, and there is not enough of it to support the music, which sounds too much like piano music superimposed on an orchestra. An example? Look at the viola parts. Same bloody pattern over and over, ad nauseum, for several measures. And no interplay between the various parts (or at least none that adds the desperately-needed color). I don't doubt that Schumann wrote great music for a symphonic orchestra; I just think it would do better as a piano reduction, for once.


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## Tapkaara

I'm don;t own much Schumann, but I should. I think he is the greatest of the early Romantics with Berlioz firmly at his side. I have a recording of his string quartets and they are exquisite works.


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## Artemis

World Violist said:


> There is very little color about it, and there is not enough of it to support the music, which sounds too much like piano music superimposed on an orchestra. An example? Look at the viola parts. Same bloody pattern over and over, ad nauseum, for several measures. And no interplay between the various parts (or at least none that adds the desperately-needed color). I don't doubt that Schumann wrote great music for a symphonic orchestra; I just think it would do better as a piano reduction, for once.


 Not enough orchestral colour? That's a new one on me I can assure you. Can you please identify some examples (specific works and performances) where you consider this to be a problem? Is this just your opinion or can you provide some published musicological analysis to support it?

Generally, as far as I know, people who reckon that Schumann was a "bad orchestrator" do not suggest that it was because he was poor at creating the appropriate orchestral colour to suit the requirements (mood etc), but on the contrary he was considered pretty good in this regard. The main criticisms about Schumann's orchestration that I know of concern:i. Firstly it has been argued that he had insufficient technical knowledge about whether or not certain orchestral instruments could or could not play various pitches. To some extent this is correct insofar that he quite probably his knowledge of brass instruments was somewhat limited, and he tended to overlook the fact that (in his day) they could only play a limited range of notes. But this occasional carelessness is hardly a big problem in practice, and by applying judicious minor alterations perfectly acceptable outcomes can be obtained. 

ii. Secondly it is alleged that he was poor in achieving good "orchestral balance", with his music giving rise to a mushy sound with inadequate identification of individual instruments. The main reason for this is because the size of orchestra has changed significantly since the time of Schumann. The string sections of the orchestras that Schumann wrote for were significantly smaller than today and hence with a virtual doubling of string players in modern orchestras it is not surprising that the music can sound thick and mushy. Another factor has been that some orchestras have tended to disregard Schumann's tempo markings in the mistaken belief that they were too either too fast or two slow, based on the view that he may have used a faulty metronome. ​ Modern Schumann scholars, however, reject the notion that he was a bad orchestrator. They believe for example that it is better to pay closer attention to Schumann's original scoring and tempo markings and only make occasional adjustments to the dynamic indications to deal with occasional problems that do arise. On the whole, heeding this advice and paying proper attention to balance, conductors such as Sawallisch and Norrington (and several others) have managed to overcome these problems without tampering with the indicated tempos etc. The results to me sound perfectly fine, and mostly I have seen nothing but praise for renditions by these conductors on other music boards and more widely.


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## Air

World Violist said:


> What's the best recording of the piano concerto?


Lipatti w/Karajan (I love this pair of performer/conductor) and the Philharmonia Orchestra 1948 is probably the greatest version of the work.

My personal favorite, however, is Richter w/Rowick and the Warsaw NPO 1958.

On DVD (w/Schumann's 4th Symphony!): Argerich w/Chailly (Another BRILLIANT match) and the Gewandhausorchester 2006. In contrast, there is Gilels live in Moscow (but too slow for my taste).

Having said that, there are SO MANY great recordings out there: Serkin/Ormandy, Zimmerman/Karajan, Michelangeli/Giulini, Arrau/Dohnanyi, to name a few. I've also heard Moravec/Mata is good.

Listen to Cortot (very good interpretation) or Gieseking (atrocious third movement) if you want to hear a lot of wrong notes.


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## confuoco

I love recording with Jorge Bolet, RSO Berlin, Chailly


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## Sid James

confuoco said:


> I love recording with Jorge Bolet, RSO Berlin, Chailly


I agree that that's an excellent recording. Bolet's account of the *Grieg* _Piano Concerto_ on the same disc is also superb.


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## confuoco

Andre said:


> I agree that that's an excellent recording. Bolet's account of the *Grieg* _Piano Concerto_ on the same disc is also superb.


But I red only bad or very reactions on both Bolet's reading of Schumann concerto from professional critics, and I don't understand it, I've heard at least 5 recordings from world-class pianists including Zimerman, Argerich, Barenboim etc. and this version by Bolet still remains my favorite, the most poetic and sensitive, the most "schumann", emotions are directly and very effective brought to listeners, especially the joy of the last movement, one can feel it even physically. And I've heard that is an excellent version from more listeners, so there must be something.


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## ChamberNut

confuoco said:


> But I red only bad or very reactions on both Bolet's reading of Schumann concerto from professional critics, and I don't understand it, I've heard at least 5 recordings from world-class pianists including Zimerman, Argerich, Barenboim etc. and this version by Bolet still remains my favorite, the most poetic and sensitive, the most "schumann", emotions are directly and very effective brought to listeners, especially the joy of the last movement, one can feel it even physically. And I've heard that is an excellent version from more listeners, so there must be something.


The Bolet version is the one I have also, and I just love it! One of my favorite recordings of any concerto!


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## confuoco

ChamberNut said:


> The Bolet version is the one I have also, and I just love it! One of my favorite recordings of any concerto!


I'm so glad for another similar opinion


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## ChamberNut

confuoco said:


> I'm so glad for another similar opinion


I know another poster (from another site) who feels the same as we do, so I'm sure there are others too.


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## confuoco

Then explain me 5 (!)/8 on classicstoday. I remember name of this reviewer and will not take him seriously in the future. Still listener's recommendations seem to be more worthy.


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## Saturnus

Of all the music I've heard, his is the closest to my heart. He was the purest of all geniuses, if he had had the skill of Bach I'm sure classical music would simply be called "Schumann" today.


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## Air

So much support for Carnaval. Chopin considered it "not music at all". Jealous, was he? Personally, I think Robert's music has ten times more heart than Frederic's does, Ballades, Nocturnes, and all. Maybe this had something to do with Clara, certainly Schumann knew more what love meant versus Chopin with his cheap Sand affairs.

I've been rediscovering Schumann's place in my heart lately, he's like my heart. It's fascinating what you can hear in his music, love in all its forms: shy, intimate, uncertain, ecstatic, angry, sorrowful, youthful frolic, it's all there, and style, beauty, and classiness along with it.


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## Eusebius12

Air said:


> So much support for Carnaval. Chopin considered it "not music at all". Jealous, was he? Personally, I think Robert's music has ten times more heart than Frederic's does, Ballades, Nocturnes, and all. Maybe this had something to do with Clara, certainly Schumann knew more what love meant versus Chopin with his cheap Sand affairs.
> 
> I've been rediscovering Schumann's place in my heart lately, he's like my heart. It's fascinating what you can hear in his music, love in all its forms: shy, intimate, uncertain, ecstatic, angry, sorrowful, youthful frolic, it's all there, and style, beauty, and classiness along with it.


Amen

And, I love Artemis' comments in this thread......


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## jurianbai

Robert Schumann might be the first composer that literally talks from his death!



> Subsequent history and conflicting opinions
> Though Joachim performed Schumann's Fantasie, he never performed the Violin Concerto. After playing it through with the Hannover Court Orchestra (of which Joachim was the concertmaster) for Schumann in October 1853, Joachim retained the manuscript for the rest of his life. After Schumann's attempted suicide in February 1854 and subsequent decline and death in a sanatorium in Endenich, Joachim evidently suspected the Concerto was a product of Schumann's madness and thought of the music as morbid. Joachim's biographer Andreas Moser reproduced a letter in which Joachim discussed Schumann's Concerto as showing 'a certain exhaustion, which attempts to wring out the last resources of spiritual energy', though 'certain individual passages bear witness to the deep feelings of the creative artist'.[1]
> 
> Joachim's opinion prevailed on the composer's widow Clara and on Brahms, and the work was not published in the Complete Edition of Schumann's works and was in effect kept secret throughout the 19th century. Brahms did however publish, in a supplementary volume of the Schumann Edition, 'Schumann's last musical thought', a theme on which Schumann had begun to compose variations in early 1854. Schumann had thought the theme had been dictated to him by the spirits of Mendelssohn and Schubert, no longer recognizing that it was a melody he had used in the slow movement of the Violin Concerto. Brahms also wrote a set of piano-duet variations on this theme, his Opus 23.
> 
> Spirit voices
> Joachim deposited the manuscript of the concerto with the Prussian State Library in Berlin, and stated in his will (he died in 1907) that the work should be neither played nor published until 100 years after the composer's death, i.e. until 1956. However in March 1933, during a spiritualist séance in London attended by Joachim's two grand-nieces, the sister violinists Jelly d'Arányi and Adila Fachiri, a spirit-voice identifying himself as Robert Schumann requested Miss d'Aranyi to recover an unpublished work of his (of which she claimed to have no knowledge) and to perform it. In a second message, this time from the spirit of Joachim, they were directed to the Prussian State Library.
> 
> Menuhin's involvement
> Yet no more was heard for four years, until in 1937 Schott Music, the music-publisher in Mainz, sent a copy of the score to Yehudi Menuhin asking for an opinion. He played it through with Hephzibah Menuhin, and reported to the conductor Vladimir Golschmann in July 1937 that it was the historically missing link of the violin literature. Menuhin planned to deliver the world premiere at San Francisco, and announced it for 3 October, but was interrupted by the appearance of Jelly d'Aranyi, who claimed the right of first performance for herself on the basis of the spiritualist messages.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violin_Concerto_(Schumann)


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## Eusebius12

Not one thread here about him? What's wrong with you people!

I thank thee for all they great musical deeds, the re-energizing of music through thy great musical publications and mighty compositions. The world of music owes thee a great debt that it cannot ever repay, especially as it virutally ignores thee and snnobbishly relegates thee. Little do they understand, and how they stunt their own musical Experience.


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## Jean Christophe Paré

We don't need a thread for every single composer, do we?


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## Ukko

*TC and 'the world of music'*

1) The "world of music" is well aware of Schumann. Talk Classical is not even a mote in the eye or pimple on the butt of the world of classical music.

2) There are, apparently, numerous posters here at TC that haven't connected with Brahms' music. It also appears that many TC members aren't up-to-speed with classical solo piano music in general; Schumann's _Davidsbundlertanze_ would be a waste of listening time for them.

3) 1) and 2) are not expressions of arrogance; music has depths to be plumbed and heights to be exalted by. Ive been 'plumbing and exalting' for over half a century, and am certain that I will end before the music does.

:tiphat: :trp:


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## Aramis

> Not one thread here about him? What's wrong with you people!


There are threads about Schumann in general and even about his single works so if there is something wrong here it's your ability to use search engine :tiphat:


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## Weston

Well he should have his own thread. His is my second favorite piano concerto (second only to Beethoven's violin concerto). Few pieces are more exuberant and rhythmically interesting than the final movement of this.


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## opus55

For some reason I don't like his symphonies yet. But again, I think this has to do with the only recording of his symphonies I have. I need to find one that suits my taste better.

I do love his piano concerto and Waldszenen performed by Richter. Waldszenen is absolutely beautiful work. I need to buy more CD's.


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## starry

opus55 said:


> For some reason I don't like his symphonies yet. But again, I think this has to do with the only recording of his symphonies I have. I need to find one that suits my taste better.


I think the third symphony is an essential, and the others have good music in them.


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## Ukko

Appreciating Schumann (or not) for his symphonies is akin to appreciating Beethoven (or not) for his Op. 80.


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## ScipioAfricanus

Bruckner called Schumann's symphonies, Sinfonettes  anyway I like his 2nd and 3rd symphonies. I actually jog to his 3rd symphony.


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## starry

Hilltroll72 said:


> Appreciating Schumann (or not) for his symphonies is akin to appreciating Beethoven (or not) for his Op. 80.


I don't really agree with that. Obviously they aren't vocal pieces and I think they are more important to Schumann's oeuvre and to the symphony in that period than Beethoven's choral fantasy is within his work.



ScipioAfricanus said:


> Bruckner called Schumann's symphonies, Sinfonettes  anyway I like his 2nd and 3rd symphonies. I actually jog to his 3rd symphony.


And yet some of the pieces are really quite large scale in their sound. The music can be very exhillarating so I think I would have to run than just jog to them at times. I certainly couldn't sit down listening to the end of the 3rd.


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## science

Not much talk here about the specific symphonies - aside from the 4th, on which there does not seem to be firm agreement. 

So, which is your favorite Schumann symphony?


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## Aramis

4th, for sure. To me it's almost as great 4th as Brahms'. And quite original in structure, all movements are linked with each other by some themes. It's one of those works that represent real, original face of romanticism. Get the Karajan recording, no matter which - there are two I think, both great. Bernstein is good too, Kubelik - decent.


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## Klavierspieler

science said:


> Not much talk here about the specific symphonies - aside from the 4th, on which there does not seem to be firm agreement.
> 
> So, which is your favorite Schumann symphony?


I love the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th, though I don't care for the 1st. Otherwise, I can't think of a single Schumann work other than the 1st Symphony that I don't care for.


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## Vesteralen

science said:


> Not much talk here about the specific symphonies - aside from the 4th, on which there does not seem to be firm agreement.
> 
> So, which is your favorite Schumann symphony?


I love them all.

Favorite versions:

Symphony No 1 - Charles Munch / Boston Symphony (coupled with the best "Manfred" Overture ever).

Symphony No. 2 - Rafael Kubelik / Berlin Philharmonic - This DG recording has a fantastic slow movement. The violins are so brilliant I used to think there was a chorus of soprano voices at one point. Also has the best "Genoveva" Overture I've heard.

Symphony No. 3 - I once heard Rene Leibowitz conducting this on the radio. I think it was an old Reader's Digest recording or something. I've always been frustrated not to be able to find a copy of it. No other version I've heard compares.

Symphony No. 4 - Otto Klemperer/Philharmonia. This and the Schubert No. 5 are my favorite Klemperers. They really breathe, if you know what I mean.

All of these are vinyls, though I do have the Kubelik on disc as well.

If I had to pick a personal favorite Schumann symphony, I think it would be No. 2. I don't think any of the symphonies have a dull moment, but the second has more thrills than the others.


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## Artemis

I reckon it's about to bring the name of this superlative composer to the fore again. I have previously said one or two things in this thread about my admiration for Schumann.

One of my very favourite pieces by Schumann, across all the genres in which he wrote, is his splendid _*Piano Quintet*,_ Opus 44. This was one of Schumann's first ventures into the chamber music genre.

Schumann was born in 1810. The first ten years or so of Schumann's music writing years were spent almost exclusively on solo piano (Ops 1-28). Then, following his marriage to Clara in 1840, he spent a year or so concentrating on song writing, which period produced three wonderful song cycles _Leiderkreis_ (Op 39), _Fraunenliebe und leben_ (Op 42), and the most famous of all _Dichterliebe_, Op 48. He wrote his first symphony in 1841.

The Piano Quintet, Opus 44, followed on soon after in 1842. This was Schumann's first main venture into the chamber music genre, and I would say it's the best he achieved. Currently it's my favourite Schumann work overall, against all others.

I have several versions of the Piano Quintet but the one which stands out head and shoulders above all the rest is this:










The fact that it's by the Leif ove Adnsnes/*Artemis* Quartet is entirely coincidental, by the way. It has the bonus of having the excellent Brahms Piano Quintet, Op 34, which happens to be another of my favourite works of all time, but that's another matter. (I'm not suggesting it's my favourite Brahms recording).

This recording won a Gramphone award in 2008. It's very high quality, both the recording and playing. I can recommend it unhesitatingly to anyone interested in finding out more about Schumann's output, beyond the better known Piano Concerto and some of his solo piano works. Especially for anyone who may have had little more than a diet of chamber music by Mozart, Beethoven, or Schubert (all of whose works I love to bits), it's possibly time to branch out, and this work by Robert Schumann should come as a nice surprise. It really is an excellent work. Give it a few listens and I reckon you'll be hooked.


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## Vesteralen

In the Helene Grimaud documentary "Living With Wolves" there is an excerpt of her playing the Schumann Quintet with a group on one of her tours. To me, this was the very best part of this film. It looks like everyone involved is just having an awful lot of fun playing this work together.


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## Air

Vesteralen said:


> In the Helene Grimaud documentary "Living With Wolves" there is an excerpt of her playing the Schumann Quintet with a group on one of her tours. To me, this was the very best part of this film. It looks like everyone involved is just having an awful lot of fun playing this work together.


Is it this one?






It's wonderful to see how physically involved the performers get in the Agitato. They lunge into their instruments, slicing away at their strings, muscles tense, faces red. When the violist begins the Agitato version of the original march theme it is just incredible - it's almost as if electricity is running through the violin as he rips away at each note. When Florestan finally changes to Eusebius, it simply floats away into a dream. I think with the Piano Quintet Schumann was able to truly explore the depths of human emotion.


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## Vesteralen

Air said:


> Is it this one?


It may be the same performers, but it is definitely not this slow movement. I'm pretty sure it is the final movement they play in the film. I can remember all the players smiling as they play it - the fun they are having is obvious. (Since I rented the DVD, I can't go and verify it right now.)
But, this was also nice to see. Thanks


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## Moscow-Mahler

I recently bought a cd with his violin sonatas (piano - Avenhaus, violin - Isabelle Faust - a wonderful young German violinist) on CPO and love it! Esp, the second sonata.


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## Moscow-Mahler

Have anyone heard *Frank Beermann and Robet Schumann Philharmonie Hemnitz* 2-cd set of Schumann symphonies by CPO? I haven't, but according to amazon samples it's a vital, energetic perfomance.Unforunately, it's full priced, but I'm still curious...

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=504853


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## Vesteralen

Moscow-Mahler said:


> I recently bought a cd with his violin sonatas (piano - Avenhaus, violin - Isabelle Faust - a wonderful young German violinist) on CPO and love it! Esp, the second sonata.


Also have this disc. Haven't listened to it in a while. I'll need to listen to it again in order to have anything to say.

I have not heard of the symphony set you mentioned. Something else to investigate.  Though, I must say the one real negative in the review is about one of my favorite moments in all the symphonies - the slow movement of #2. Kubelik's version of this has always entranced me because he makes the strings sound like a chorus of soprano voices. Magical.


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## Artemis

Moscow-Mahler said:


> I recently bought a cd with his violin sonatas (piano - Avenhaus, violin - Isabelle Faust - a wonderful young German violinist) on CPO and love it! Esp, the second sonata.


Schumann's violin and piano sonatas are among my favourite works in this genre. I don't have the version you refer to but the one with Carolyn Widmann (violin) and Denes Varjon (piano). The CD cover for this is too bland to warrant showing it.

I would agree that the second sonata, Op 121, is the best. All three sonatas are late works, and the last one was published posthumously. Its catalogue number is the lowly sounding WoO 27. I'm not sure but would guess it was among several late works by Schumann that only by good luck escaped being ditched permanently by Clara.

None of the sonatas sounds remotely like anything previously by other composers. Some of Brahms much later works sound vaguely similar in their romantic flavour. To any diehard Beethovenian or Schubertian these works would probably sound very strange, but they're highly enjoyable once you've attuned your brain to the world of Schumann's music.


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## Klavierspieler

Artemis said:


> Schumann's violin and piano sonatas are among my favourite works in this genre. I don't have the version you refer to but the one with Carolyn Widmann (violin) and Denes Varjon (piano). The CD cover for this is too bland to warrant showing it.
> 
> I would agree that the second sonata, Op 121, is the best. All three sonatas are late works, and the last one was published posthumously. Its catalogue number is the lowly sounding WoO 27. I'm not sure but would guess it was among several late works by Schumann that only by good luck escaped being ditched permanently by Clara.
> 
> None of the sonatas sounds remotely like anything previously by other composers. Some of Brahms much later works sound vaguely similar in their romantic flavour. To any diehard Beethovenian or Schubertian these works would probably sound very strange, but they're highly enjoyable once you've attuned your brain to the world of Schumann's music.


Artemis: What did you think of the Widmann recording?


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## Artemis

Klavierspieler said:


> Artemis: What did you think of the Widmann recording?


I didn't comment on the Widmann/Varjon recording itself because I had nothing else to compare it with. But I have now borrowed a copy of the Faust/Avenhaus version mentioned previously.

I would say the quality of playing on each is very good, and overall there is not much in it between the two versions. I slightly prefer the Widmann version because they take the works at a slower pace, letting them breath rather more, and I thing the acoustics of the venue are also slightly better. Both recordings get good reviews among those I found. In the case of the version by Faust/Avenhaus this was the most favoured one in a BBC "Building a Library" discussion several years ago, so it must be pretty good at least. I see that it's also the cheaper of the two at Amazon. I think with either you wouldn't be disappointed.

Just reading up a bit about the third sonata, WoO 27, it was indeed the last work that Schumann completed in 1853 before his mental illness took its most drastic, and eventually fateful, turn for the worse. The work was binned by Clara and Brahms out of concern to protect the composer's reputation, and didn't see the light of day until 1956. I think it's great, and complements the previous two nicely. It contains some slightly more frenetic passages than the previous two but they're not unduly out of place. In each of the three sonatas the violin and piano are each given equal weight, which of course is by no means always the case with violin sonatas generally. With these Schumann sonatas, there's nothing laid back about them; there's a good deal going on all the time, with all manner of things to marvel at to keep your attention gripped.


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## violadude

Can someone please explain Schumann's Carnaval to me? I really want to like this piece as it seems that many people esteem it highly, so I kinda feel like I'm missing something. I've tried to like it, but to me it just sounds like an annoying hot mess of repetitive cutesy melodies. I'm not trying to be insulting here it's just how I hear it. Can someone who loves the piece explain why they love it for me? It might give me some perspective...


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## Artemis

violadude said:


> Can someone please explain Schumann's Carnaval to me? I really want to like this piece as it seems that many people esteem it highly, so I kinda feel like I'm missing something. I've tried to like it, but to me it just sounds like an annoying hot mess of repetitive cutesy melodies. I'm not trying to be insulting here it's just how I hear it. Can someone who loves the piece explain why they love it for me? It might give me some perspective...


 I'll have a go.

The work was written in 1834/35 and appeared as Schumann's Opus 9. It has become one of Schumann's most highly rated solo piano works. By this stage in his career Schumann had been writing piano music for some 4-5 years. He was age 25 at the time of its completion. The works was dedicated to Schumann's fiancée, Ernestine von Frieken, who was many years his younger. She was brought up in the city of Asch. _Carnaval_ was subtitled _Scènes mignonnes sur quatre notes_ (Little Scenes on Four Notes), and the four notes were: A, E-flat, C, B (identified in German as *A-S-C-H*.) Schumann discovered that Ernestine was illegitimate and fearful that this would lead to a loss of any dowry upon marriage he decided to drop her. The composition actually was published about a year before this discovery of her illegitimacy.

The work is basically all about revealing the innermost feelings of Schumann without any restrictions. It's made up of several pieces (21 in total), each with its title representing various kinds of behaviour that he thought one might see at a masked ball during a public carnival in Germany or other places like Venice. It opens with grand _Preambule_, and is followed by a slower movement about a clown _Pierrot, _then a lively _Harlequine_ (a masquerade figure). It goes through describing various other characters in musical language form.

We are also introduced to Eusebius (representing Schumann's quieter more subdued and thoughtful side) and Florestan (representing his more fiery side). There is a flirtatious girl, a reference to Ernestine von Frieken, to Clara Wieck (his future wife), a tribute to Chopin ("hats off, gentlemen, a genius"), another to Paganini, and even one to himself as a champion against the "Philistines" as he saw them as various academic, conservative musicians who tried try to stop the progress of new music; and here the movement is named after David's fight against the Philistines. If you dig around the internet you'll easily find descriptions of all these various characters, as portrayed in the various movements.

That's why the work hops about a lot. In all it's about 28 minutes in length. It is very characteristic of Schumann's piano solo work: highly virtuosic, telling a story and sometimes, as here, a complex story, and was all about music for the new romantic era of which he was a brilliant herald. He knew that _Carnaval_ was difficult to play and that it would likely be criticised in its early days. This was the case. Chopin is reported to have said that he didn't recognise it as music. It was criticised even by Clara, his then new love, who told him it was too difficult and suggested it be simplified. Nevertheless, he stood his ground, didn't alter a note, and here we have masterpiece handed down to us just as he wrote it.

_Carnaval _is definitely among my favourite piano solo works, and is as complex as I like things to go, with very a rich and colourful variety of material. Don't expect "classical" order or anything like the application of standard rules on sonata form with this work. It's a whole new ball game, as by now we're firmly in the romantic era.


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## violadude

Thank you Artemis! I will definitely give the piece another listen with all those things in mind.


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## jalex

Me too I think. It's probably due for another listen about now.


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## Klavierspieler

In addition to the twenty-one pieces there are three 'Sphinxes' which I wish pianists played more often.


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## violadude

Klavierspieler said:


> In addition to the twenty-one pieces there are three 'Sphinxes' which I wish pianists played more often.


Why don't they?


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## Klavierspieler

violadude said:


> Why don't they?


I believe it stems from Clara toning down or omitting some of the more daring things that Robert wrote. (The 'Sphinxes' are three sets of notes, each one containing the A-S-C-H device)


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## Nix

I like Robert Schumann and want the green circle check to appear whenever this thread gets revisited.


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## Air

Klavierspieler said:


> I believe it stems from Clara toning down or omitting some of the more daring things that Robert wrote. (The 'Sphinxes' are three sets of notes, each one containing the A-S-C-H device)


Yes, this is true, and I think the question about whether to play Sphinxes or not has to do with whether one sees it as merely conceptual or not. Maybe Clara knew that it was something that was never meant to be played. Or maybe it was something she herself didn't understand either.

To be honest, it really doesn't fit in with the rest of the piece at all. But it sure sounds cool, and I have a feeling that Schumann meant it, and was pulling a John Cage on us. And the greatest pianists like Cortot and Rachmaninoff know this and dutifully include it.


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## Artemis

Another gem from Robert Schumann is his _*Das Paradies und die Peri.* _

This is his Opus 50 which he finished in 1843. It's an oratorio, which runs for about 100 minutes, based on an original story emanating in Persia about a beautiful angel-like creature called _Peri_ who fell out of paradise to earth, and who tried to obtain re-admittance. The _Peri_ finally got back into paradise by giving the gift that is most acceptable to its doorkeeper, namely the bringing of a tear from a repentant sinner who had seen a child praying.

The work was first performed under the baton of Schumann himself. It became an immensely popular work, especially in England, in the 1850s and 1860s for several reasons: because of its exquisitely beautiful nature, the considerable popularity of Schumann at that time, and the fact that it had strong moral tone which very much appealed to Victorian values. It is a beautifully crafted work orchestrally, with strings and winds being excellently balanced, and with sparing use of brass.

There happened to be a recording of this work on BBC Radio 3 yesterday evening. I was glued listening to it. It was a recording of a concert given a few weeks ago at the start of this year's Edinburgh International Festival with Sir Roger Norrington leading the Scottish Chamber Orchestra in a vibrato-free performance of this Oratorio. Susan Gritton sang the part of the _Peri_.

During the interval, Sir Roger Norrington was interviewed about the work, the reasons for its huge popularity in the 19th century, and he touched on the subject of Schumann's orchestration skills, both in the _Das Paradies und die Peri_ and more generally. He said the kindest things about Schumann's true orchestration abilities which he rated highly, and described as myth the stories that began to circulate much later in the century that Schumann's orchestration ability was suspect. He pointed out that Schumann's' orchestration sounds perfectly fine provided the size of the orchestra is reduced to that which Schumann would have been used to, e.g. the use of 8 first violins rather than 16, since otherwise it's very difficult to balance the strings with other instruments. Schumann would not have found vibrato acceptable.

Here is a 3 minute 40 second snippet from that concert, Susan Gritton singing the last section of Part 2: _Schlaf nun und ruhe in Träumen voll Duft_. I hope you will agree than it's a very delightful piece.


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## Air

Artemis, I absolutely love _Das Paradies und die Peri_! I think I wrote my own little shpeel about it here. I will have to say that the finale of the 3rd part is my favorite as it is simply exuberant with joy and melody, and only the best choral music can make you feel the same way _Das Paradies_ does as the Peri is triumphantly entering heaven.

In fact, I think I prefer it overall to the _Faust Scenes_.


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## Artemis

Air said:


> Artemis, I absolutely love _Das Paradies und die Peri_! I think I wrote my own little shpeel about it here. .


So you did. I'm afraid that I missed that. I agree with you that the John Eliot Gardiner/Monteverdi Choir/ORR version is the best on CD.

The reason I wrote my piece was mainly because of the recent radio concert of this work, and the comments made by Sir Roger Norrington (the conductor on this occasion) about Schumann's orchestration ability both in this work and more generally.

I do very much like large-scale concert choral works of this nature, i.e. with good music and a quasi religious theme, in preference to all the panoply of an opera. Haydn's _Creation_ is an earlier example, but I prefer the Mid-Victorian "romantic" type best of all, of which another excellent example is Mendelssohn's _Elijah_.


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## Oskaar

I love Scumann! Listening to his 3 string quartets op 41 right now. Fantastic!


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## Klavierspieler

oskaar said:


> I love Scumann! Listening to his 3 string quartets op 41 right now. Fantastic!


Those Quartets are so very underrated! I wish they (like so many other Schumann works) were performed more often.


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## Oskaar

I have a lot to discover by Schumann. But after what I have listened to, I also feel that he is underratet, looking here in different posts. Maybe he fall between two chairs? But that is what I like with him, beeng serious and deep, an light and melodios at the same time.


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## Oskaar

I have listen and discovered some Shumann lately, and everything I hear is so good! He is obviously a master of melodies! In every range of feelings. I am listening to 5 Stücke im Volkston, for cello and piano, Op.102 now, and the pieces is so incredibly beautiful!


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## Air

oskaar said:


> I have a lot to discover by Schumann. But after what I have listened to, I also feel that he is underratet, looking here in different posts. Maybe he fall between two chairs? But that is what I like with him, beeng serious and deep, an light and melodios at the same time.


I think many people make the error of equating lighthearted, carefree music with "light music" and considering only dark, brooding, expansively developed works to be "serious". Schumann doesn't buy this sort of philosophy. For him, beauty is the means, and emotions are the ends. It doesn't matter whether the music falls on the lighter side of the spectrum or on the darker side, it all serves one purpose.


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## Lisztian

Listened to his Piano Concerto the other day, first time in a while. Terrific piece...

My favourite work by Schumann though is his Fantasy in C. I put it, along with Chopin's Ballades and the Liszt Sonata, as the pinnacles of Romantic solo piano music.


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## Lisztian

Just finished being blown away by Kreisleriana. This is a work that took me a lot longer to get than some other works by Schumann, but now that I have...I simply love it.


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## moody

Bach said:


> Which is odd considering he writes so well for the piano and voice.. not like Beethoven who didn't write well for anything..


Do try to at least be sensible.


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## moody

Artemis said:


> Could you elaborate on exactly what you mean by "his orchestration is outright horrible"? And can you provide any modern musicological opionion to support this argument as opposed to the tired misconceptions of old?


Well I can support his argument with the musicological opinion supplied by my ears, his violin concert is not good either , It is not necessary to get into one of your long winded essays on the subject.


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## Vaneyes

moody said:


> Well I can support his argument with the musicological opinion supplied by my ears, his violin concert is not good either , It is not necessary to get into one of your long winded essays on the subject.


It did take me some time to find palatable recordings for Schumann Violin Concerto and Cello Concerto. I'm happy with Kremer/Muti and Rostropovich/Bernstein.


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## Klavierspieler

moody said:


> Well I can support his argument with the musicological opinion supplied by my ears, his violin concert is not good either , It is not necessary to get into one of your long winded essays on the subject.


I wouldn't mind it if people would just say that they don't care for his orchestration, rather than say that his orchestration is horrible. Many of us actually enjoy his orchestration.


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## moody

Klavierspieler said:


> I wouldn't mind it if people would just say that they don't care for his orchestration, rather than say that his orchestration is horrible. Many of us actually enjoy his orchestration.


With respect I did exactly that---"--opinion supplied by my ears". Unlike many people here I try to use my own judgement rather than read or listen to the "experts".


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## Vesteralen

moody said:


> With respect I did exactly that---"--opinion supplied by my ears". Unlike many people here I try to use my own judgement rather than read or listen to the "experts".


Actually, I think by far the majority of posters here work off of the 'opinion supplied by [their] own ears'.

The big problem is that the way they express that opinion sometimes comes across as smug and condescending - as if they themselves are the "experts".


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## moody

Vesteralen said:


> Actually, I think by far the majority of posters here work off of the 'opinion supplied by [their] own ears'.
> 
> The big problem is that the way they express that opinion sometimes comes across as smug and condescending - as if they themselves are the "experts".


You will notice that I was repling to an attack Artemis made on someone. He I think fits very well into you description.


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## Vesteralen

moody said:


> You will notice that I was repling to an attack Artemis made on someone. He I think fits very well into you description.


Perhaps, but I think we all are guilty of this from time to time. I know some of my posts could be read that way, though I would never have suspected it at the time I wrote it. It's just comes with the territory, to some degree.

(We can't all be Elgarian...much as we'd like to be. )


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## moody

Klavierspieler said:


> I wouldn't mind it if people would just say that they don't care for his orchestration, rather than say that his orchestration is horrible. Many of us actually enjoy his orchestration.


What we have hear is a mutual admiration society and not a discussion in any way at all. By the way I love all the nonsense about "spirits".
Artemis said that the "mushy sound" was caused by the orchestra changes since the time of Schumann. He also said that under the circumstance it was not surprising that the music can sound thick and mushy! Well at least we have agreement that the that it sounds thick and mushy.
"The pages of Schumann's orchestral scores are uniformly filled with notes suggesting secure sonority but little colour.The completeness of Schumann's orchestra and the ensuing monotony of instrumental colour cannot be ascribed to Schumann's inexpertness. The example of the symphony in D shows that this type of orchestration was his chosen technique. THE SYMPHONY WAS ORIGINALLY ORCHESTRATED IN A MUCH MORE TRANSPARENT FASHION and was performed on December 6th,1841. Then it was laid aside for ten years, in 1851 he reorchestrated the symphony and conducted the definitive version in Dusseldorf,1853." This of course is in direct opposition to Artemis' claim .
"As for the violin concerto it cannot be called a happy work, at least in its history. It could only have been meant for his friend Joseph Joachim but unfortunately he died in 1856 without hearing Joachim perform it. The reason was that while recognising the beauty of certain passages, Joachim regretted that there was a lessening of Schumann's creative genius, and that performing would only reduce the esteem that the composer enjoyed .Eventually the work was rediscovered by Fritz Kreisler who somewhat modified the solo part and passed it on to Yehudi Menuhin who performed it in New York during World War 11. At about the same time in a revision by Schuenamann the concerto was performed in Berlin by the violinist Georg Kulenkampff. Since then few violinists showed much interest until the first modern recording by Henryk Szeryng the L.S.O and Antal Dorati."Let me remind you that the L.P. record was launched in 1948 and the stereo L.P. in 1958. So that unfortunately doesn't say much for the concerto does it?
The thing I don't understand is that hear you have a man who is one of the two greatest song writers the world has known, who wrote great piano music, chamber music and a wonderful piano concerto. Yet you appear to put him forward as a great symphonist although he was certainlynot in the front rank in this role. A person is entitled to his/her own opinion thank goodness but it's no good trying to fool the others, your claims are spurious even if your opinions are not.I have rows and rows of Schumann material but the box set of the George Szell recordings of the symphonies bought 32 years ago is as new. But I play the rest of his stuff often and I have nine versions of the piano concerto.Incidentally, all the slightly negative information above was taken from the recordings' sleeve notes and they're supposed to be on his side.


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## Klavierspieler

*Mushy orchestration isn't "bad" just because a bunch of people, including "experts," happen to not like it. A lot of people happen to enjoy it!*

I'm done here...


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Schumann is okay I suppose...

_GO CLARA!!!_


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## Lisztian

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Schumann is okay I suppose...
> 
> _GO CLARA!!!_


What is it about Clara's music that you like so much?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Lisztian said:


> What is it about Clara's music that you like so much?


I just find it more appealing really. I sometimes listen to Robert Schumann's music too, but I seem to enjoy her music more.


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## Very Senior Member

moody said:


> What we have hear is a mutual admiration society and not a discussion in any way at all. By the way I love all the nonsense about "spirits".
> Artemis said that the "mushy sound" was caused by the orchestra changes since the time of Schumann. He also said that under the circumstance it was not surprising that the music can sound thick and mushy! Well at least we have agreement that the that it sounds thick and mushy.
> "The pages of Schumann's orchestral scores are uniformly filled with notes suggesting secure sonority but little colour.The completeness of Schumann's orchestra and the ensuing monotony of instrumental colour cannot be ascribed to Schumann's inexpertness. The example of the symphony in D shows that this type of orchestration was his chosen technique. THE SYMPHONY WAS ORIGINALLY ORCHESTRATED IN A MUCH MORE TRANSPARENT FASHION and was performed on December 6th,1841. Then it was laid aside for ten years, in 1851 he reorchestrated the symphony and conducted the definitive version in Dusseldorf,1853." This of course is in direct opposition to Artemis' claim .
> "As for the violin concerto it cannot be called a happy work, at least in its history. It could only have been meant for his friend Joseph Joachim but unfortunately he died in 1856 without hearing Joachim perform it. The reason was that while recognising the beauty of certain passages, Joachim regretted that there was a lessening of Schumann's creative genius, and that performing would only reduce the esteem that the composer enjoyed .Eventually the work was rediscovered by Fritz Kreisler who somewhat modified the solo part and passed it on to Yehudi Menuhin who performed it in New York during World War 11. At about the same time in a revision by Schuenamann the concerto was performed in Berlin by the violinist Georg Kulenkampff. Since then few violinists showed much interest until the first modern recording by Henryk Szeryng the L.S.O and Antal Dorati."Let me remind you that the L.P. record was launched in 1948 and the stereo L.P. in 1958. So that unfortunately doesn't say much for the concerto does it?
> The thing I don't understand is that hear you have a man who is one of the two greatest song writers the world has known, who wrote great piano music, chamber music and a wonderful piano concerto. Yet you appear to put him forward as a great symphonist although he was certainlynot in the front rank in this role. A person is entitled to his/her own opinion thank goodness but it's no good trying to fool the others, your claims are spurious even if your opinions are not.I have rows and rows of Schumann material but the box set of the George Szell recordings of the symphonies bought 32 years ago is as new. But I play the rest of his stuff often and I have nine versions of the piano concerto.Incidentally, all the slightly negative information above was taken from the recordings' sleeve notes and they're supposed to be on his side.


Modern opinion is that there is nothing wrong with Schumann's orchestration ability provided a suitably weighted orchestra is used. This topic has come up so often on so many classical music boards that I wonder how anyone has the audacity to come out with such an old-fashioned and now largely discredited view of Schumann's orchestration abilities. If you want to dig around, try GMG and CMG where there have been mumerous discussions on this tired old subject, all largely confirming what I have stated about orchestral balance.

What's especially odd is that you base your argument on references to sleeves notes on LPs written many years ago, and yet it was who said that you do not rely on the opinions of musicologists or other experts except your own ears. If that is really the case, may I suggest you invest in some moden recordings of Schumann symphonies and have a read of the sleeve notes there. In this context it's a pity you missed last week's BBC Radio 3 "CD Review" programme where Schumann's orchestration abilities were yet again assessed by musical experts who yet again re-confirmed what I said above.


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## moody

Very Senior Member said:


> Modern opinion is that there is nothing wrong with Schumann's orchestration ability provided a suitably weighted orchestra is used. This topic has come up so often on so many classical music boards that I wonder how anyone has the audacity to come out with such an old-fashioned and now largely discredited view of Schumann's orchestration abilities. If you want to dig around, try GMG and CMG where there have been mumerous discussions on this tired old subject, all largely confirming what I have stated about orchestral balance.
> 
> What's especially odd is that you base your argument on references to sleeves notes on LPs written many years ago, and yet it was who said that you do not rely on the opinions of musicologists or other experts except your own ears. If that is really the case, may I suggest you invest in some moden recordings of Schumann symphonies and have a read of the sleeve notes there. In this context it's a pity you missed last week's BBC Radio 3 "CD Review" programme where Schumann's orchestration abilities were yet again assessed by musical experts who yet again re-confirmed what I said above.


I was answering somebody's comments about orchestral size and as I noted ,although agreeing with some of your points he admitted that the orchestration was mushy. Are you denying that Schumann changed a lighter orchestration into what we mostly hear now? Apart from that, yes I was relying on my own feeling regarding the music ,you ignore the fact that I said I'd hardly ever played the recordings that I have ,but you are quite good at ignoring what doesn't suit you I've noticed. So I presume what you are telling me is that all up to date versions are played by smaller orchestras, is that correct? Also that Schumann didn't really mean the reorchestration that he made.As for the violin concerto, I failed to include the recording date for the Szerynk disc, it was 1966.Took rather a long time for a record company to bother with it did it not. I note that you say that it has come up on so many music boards, so modern opinion has not persuaded everyone then? So out of your obviously expert knowledge, how many recordings have been done in this new way ? I'll order one and give my honest opinion, I presume all concerts also use the new type of scoring. Lastly it is not particularly odd that I would use the sleeve notes of the records that I have because I wouldn't be in possession of any for recordings that I do not have now would I? Also I decided that I wasn't interested. Before you say then how did you get into this argument in that case, I was answering something that did not hold water. in many ways what you have said seems to make more sense, but I can only talk of what I have experienced. I note that Klavierspieler who was very talkative has no Schumann recordings at all ! I have 7000 recordings and have been going to concerts for 62 years, so my days of listening to critics' programmes have gone. I know Schumann well but for the reasons mentioned have taken no interest in the symponic works , if I had seen your information on a thread I would have gone into the whole matter of course.


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## moody

I thought I would add just one more point, what does it matter as to the age of the sleeve notes when I was using historical points that were included. Which of those points was incorrect, perhaps you would run over them. It would seem to me that it was Schumann's fault and that your modern versions must be ignoring what he actually wanted. ENOUGH!


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## Very Senior Member

moody said:


> I know Schumann well but for the reasons mentioned have taken no interest in the symponic works , if I had seen your information on a thread I would have gone into the whole matter of course.


I'm not going to respond to all your comments but as regards a good example of a modern rendition of Schumann's symphonies you might try:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51COwlfPB5L._SL500_AA300_.jpg

The Deutsche Kammerphilharmonie Bremen under Paavo Järvi used a "chamber" orchestra set-up for the two Schumann symphonies recorded on this disc, Symphonies No 1 and 3. I understand that Symphonies 2 and 4 are scheduled to be recorded later this year.

As noted on last week's Radio 3 "CD Review" programme when this topic came up, this is a new take on Schumann with a transparency of sound that cuts through all the old-fashioned ideas about his orchestration being stodgy etc. That result was largely down the way orchestras of old did it, paying little or no regard to the kind of set-up that Schumann was actually used to in his day. I happen to have bought this CD for Xmas and would agree with the recent BBC's reviewers that it's great.

There are other good recordings of Schumann symphonies but I'll leave you to investigate these under your own devices. I told you about other places where you might look. There might be some threads here but I haven't looked that closely. I've just had another glance at the sites I'm more used to and see there are several threads over the past few years giving some very-well informed advice on Schumann symphonies and other orchestral works, but I won't trot them out here.


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## Klavierspieler

moody said:


> I note that Klavierspieler who was very talkative has no Schumann recordings at all !


I do wonder how you came up with this one! :lol:


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## moody

Klavierspieler said:


> I do wonder how you came up with this one! :lol:


Because you sent a message to Lisztian saying so, if not I apologise.


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## moody

Klavierspieler said:


> I do wonder how you came up with this one! :lol:


Yes:I have a confession to make I don't have a Schumann collection.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

moody said:


> I note that Klavierspieler who was very talkative has no Schumann recordings at all !


And I have only one *Ligeti* recording.


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## Romantic Geek

I admit, I haven't read much of this debate. But speaking about Robert Schumann's orchestration, I really think his symphonic works are very weak in comparison to the other Romantic composers. I just listened to the Piano Concerto for the first time a few hours ago. I don't find it particularly memorable and I think the heavy orchestration has to do with that a bit. I find his symphonies to be decent, but nothing terribly special.

On the other hand, I think Schumann's solo piano works and vocal music is tough to beat. He really mastered those genres.


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## Very Senior Member

I wonder what member (now moderator) "Air" thinks about the recent negative comment on Schumann’s orchestration skill from some quarters.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I'm thinking of re-orchestrating Schumann's third symphony. I think Schumann's ideas for that symphony are quite good, but his orchestration doesn't really sound very colourful to give more of an impression of the German countryside. In my re-orchestration I think I'll use a bit of a "Mahlerian" approach and make use of traditional German instruments especially in the second movement (which really should be called "Ländler" rather than "Scherzo"). May have to do a bit of research on traditional German stuff though.


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## Itullian

Schumann's symphs are sweeping, romantic, emotional outpourings. any attempts to be over analytical with them robs them of this, i think.
just go with his feelings and let them sweep you away.
very spiritual works.

love Klemperer's long, slow, romantic approach.


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## Vesteralen

One my all-time favorite orchestral moments is in the slow movement to Schumann's Symphony No 2 in the old Kubelik DG recording when the shimmering violins sound for all the world like an actual chorus of soprano voices.


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## Vaneyes

Bob Schumann's the bomb. End of story.


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## jalex

I really like Schumann's symphonies, but even with period orchestras his orchestration rarely sounds anything more than functional. My problem isn't with the string-drowned textures created by modern orchestras so much as its sheer unimaginativeness. Carse criticises his orchestration thus: 'his scoring is a matter of conservative routine, much of his material is equally suitable (or not) for various instruments rather than being suited to any in particular, he lacked the instinct to distribute his musical materials in places where they would best contribute to the overall impression, his tone is monotonous and consistently dull'. Harrison adds that 'Schumann tended to treat the winds (pairs of flutes, oboes, clarinets and bassoons) as a united family whose members rarely venture out on their own' (http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics3/schumannsym.html). These criticisms I agree with.

The modern change of opinion as far as I can see stems partly from the use of thinner textures in period performances and partly from a general acceptance of his orchestration as 'idiosyncratic' rather than 'dull'. I'm not sure I'm ready to concede that last point. Doesn't stop me enjoying them though.


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## Klavierspieler

moody said:


> Yes:I have a confession to make I don't have a Schumann collection.


What I meant by that is that I don't have many recordings: I do have a few. I do most of my listening on Youtube.


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## Air

Very Senior Member said:


> I wonder what member (now moderator) "Air" thinks about the recent negative comment on Schumann's orchestration skill from some quarters.


I actually have very little to say on this matter except for - to each his own. It doesn't affect me nor the way I view Schumann's music in the least. I might also want to add that those who quibble over orchestration I find perhaps a little _wanting_ of an excuse - not criticizing Schumann's (infallible ) music itself but rather trying to take the easy route by quibbling over the means of its existence. Not to mention that such a criticism is quite cliché - a well-trodden route that I feel many try to revert the discussion back to often not because of their own opinions but due to the (unfortunate) pre-existence of a rather outdated expert opinion. I say outdated because a recent evaluation of Schumann's orchestral music (the symphonies, in particular) has led to an intelligent revision of the earlier hypothesis, especially in regards to the instruments that they were originally performed on and Schumann's intentions regarding these creations. I think recordings such as John Eliot Gardiner's takes these contemporary views into consideration much more and the effect, without a doubt, works wonders. I'll try to pull up some more analysis if I ever find the time to do so.

Admittedly, the symphonies are not one area of Schumann's music I continue to pay much attention to, and I don't quite understand why every discussion of Schumann's music must inevitably revert back to the topic of orchestration. I mean I can find a quote of such on ever page of every Schumann thread on every classical forum on the web, it seems. And in comparison, maybe only two words regarding one of his enthralling song cycles, for instance, and those, usually exploring only (again, well-trodden) warhorses such as the _Dichterliebe_.


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## Very Senior Member

Air said:


> I might also want to add that those who quibble over orchestration I find perhaps a little _wanting_ of an excuse - not criticizing Schumann's (infallible ) music itself but rather trying to take the easy route by quibbling over the means of its existence. Not to mention that such a criticism is quite cliché - a well-trodden route that I feel many try to revert the discussion back to often not because of their own opinions but due to the (unfortunate) pre-existence of a rather outdated expert opinion. I say outdated because a recent evaluation of Schumann's orchestral music (the symphonies, in particular) has led to an intelligent revision of the earlier hypothesis, especially in regards to the instruments that they were originally performed on and Schumann's intentions regarding these creations. I think recordings such as John Eliot Gardiner's takes these contemporary views into consideration much more and the effect, without a doubt, works wonders. I'll try to pull up some more analysis if I ever find the time to do so.


Thank you. I very much agree.

Your comment - that criticism of Schumann's orchestration skills is rather cliché and outdated in the light of more modern evaluations - has of course been made many times before. It is now well-known and is hardly "news" or in any way controversial, at least among people who try to keep up-todate on matters like this. Of course, not everyone agrees with this more modern thinking, and some may continue to believe that Schumann was not a good orchestrator, but that is a separate matter.

However, I wonder why it was that much the same sentiment as expressed by you - that Schumann's orchestration is poor is an out-dated concept - by another member earlier in this thread attracted such a wave of criticism (see posts 78 thru' 85) with claims of it "attacking" other people and being "smug" and "condescending".

You are also right that just about every Schumann thread on any Board brings up this same old issue. It does indeed get very boring, and I can hardly blame anyone who has seen it all before not wishing to repeat themselves for the umpteenth time trying to fend off this kind of thing. But if nothing is said to counter the negative views of such people there is a risk that some of them don't seem content to leave things there, but appear to want to drag in all sorts of baggage like personalising the issue, such as we saw above regarding claims of alleged smugness etc

In my earlier post I briefly mentioned the recent issue of a couple of Schumann symphonies by the the Deutsche Kammerphilharmonie Bremen under Paavo Järvi. This was discussed in glowing terms by a couple of reviewers on the BBC's Radio 3 "CD Review" a couple of weeks ago. This kind of positive comment is now fairly commonplace, if anyone cares to look in the right places. A few weeks previously I heard Sir Roger Norrington talking in similar terms on a radio interview about old-fashioned views about Schumann's orchestration. This kind of thing happens quite commonly on various radio broadcasts, so I guess a lot of the criticism seen on Forums like this must be coming from people who are out of date or have a narrow listening perspective, or otherwise non-receptive to modern thinking.

Another aspect of all this is that most of the criticism is levelled solely against Schumann's symphonies. One occasionally hears similar adverse comment about his VC but I would guess that on the whole most of these adverse comments come from people who are only vaguely aware of the full scale of Schumann's orchestral works where there is usually no criticism, but on the contrary substantial praise for his very clever inventiveness in several areas.


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## moody

Klavierspieler said:


> What I meant by that is that I don't have many recordings: I do have a few. I do most of my listening on Youtube.


 I'm really not trying to get at you--it doesn't matter and it's certainly not the end of the world. You stand by your beliefs.


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## moody

I think Air's last paragraph says it all. He also says pretty well what I said about the rest of Schumann's work. Do you think that maybe enough is enough, your opinions are important to you and that's what it's all about.


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## Vesteralen

Very Senior Member said:


> However, I wonder why it was that much the same sentiment as expressed by you - that Schumann's orchestration is poor is an out-dated concept - by another member earlier in this thread attracted such a wave of criticism (see posts 78 thru' 85) with claims of it "attacking" other people and being "smug" and "condescending".
> 
> You are also right that just about every Schumann thread on any Board brings up this same old issue. It does indeed get very boring, and I can hardly blame anyone who has seen it all before not wishing to repeat themselves for the umpteenth time trying to fend off this kind of thing. But if nothing is said to counter the negative views of such people there is a risk that some of them don't seem content to leave things there, but appear to want to drag in all sorts of baggage like personalising the issue, such as we saw above regarding claims of alleged smugness etc


Sorry. I feel the need to respond to this because, since I'm the one that made the comments about smugness, I feel that my comments are being misunderstood and misapplied.

I did not level this charge at any particular person - nor did I intend to do so. I was responding merely to the comment Moody made that he used 'his own ears' rather than relying, as most other posters were doing, 'on the opinions of experts'.

My comment was simply that, in my experience, the majority of the posters on this forum do rely on the opinion of their own ears rather than on those of the experts, but that there is a great danger when doing that, that we may express our opinions as if we ourselves are the "experts', and thus come off as smug and condescending.

Moody seemed, rightly, to understand that this was not a criticism leveled at him specifically, but at any and all of us. And, in my follow-up comment, I included myself in this sweeping generalization as sometimes being guilty of the same.

My problem this time was probably just feeling the urge to say something, which urge I have been pretty much overcoming of late. And, seeing how easy it is to be misunderstood, I imagine I will now return to the safety of lurkerdom.


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## moody

Vesteralen said:


> Sorry. I feel the need to respond to this because, since I'm the one that made the comments about smugness, I feel that my comments are being misunderstood and misapplied.
> 
> I did not level this charge at any particular person - nor did I intend to do so. I was responding merely to the comment Moody made that he used 'his own ears' rather than relying, as most other posters were doing, 'on the opinions of experts'.
> 
> My comment was simply that, in my experience, the majority of the posters on this forum do rely on the opinion of their own ears rather than on those of the experts, but that there is a great danger when doing that, that we may express our opinions as if we ourselves are the "experts', and thus come off as smug and condescending.
> 
> Moody seemed, rightly, to understand that this was not a criticism leveled at him specifically, but at any and all of us. And, in my follow-up comment, I included myself in this sweeping generalization as sometimes being guilty of the same.
> 
> My problem this time was probably just feeling the urge to say something, which urge I have been pretty much overcoming of late. And, seeing how easy it is to be misunderstood, I imagine I will now return to the safety of lurkerdom.


Don't you dare, you come right out and give your opinion ,that is what this is supposed to be all about. Ignore the know-alls and no lurking !


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## Dimboukas

What is your favorite recording of Schumann's Piano Concerto? To be honest I have a great problem(!) I like his concerto very much. I could place it, for example, in the top 3 of my favorite piano concertos. However, I dislike many recordings of it. I usually find them either to be very fast or with too much rubato. Sometimes, I don't like rubato and want more austere tempos even for romantic pieces.

There is one recording I like very much. It is with Wilhelm Kempff, Rafael Kubelik and the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra of 1974. However, when I searched for reviews I found that it is not very well received. They may have cited some reasons but most of them converge to the fact that Kempff's interpretation "is not romantic, it is rigid, cold" etc. Take for example Allmusic's review (http://www.allmusic.com/album/schumann-concerto-pour-piano-scnes-denfants-carnaval-w139444). In Amazon, someone, just like me, likes this approach too (http://www.amazon.com/Schumann-Piano-Works-Robert/product-reviews/B00005KK4M/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1). Another reviewer says that this interpretation is closer to Bach! (http://www.amazon.co.uk/review/R3OPVY83EFQG7K/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt#R3OPVY83EFQG7K) This last review and the reference to Bach helped me realize that I like what others don't.

That is, in this concerto of Schumann I like a more strict approach. In the concerto, the piano has many long sequences with no pause. I think that rubato, for example, ruins this continuity as in Bach.

Another performer I also like for this concerto is Murray Perahia. What do you think, what recordings do you like?


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## Vaneyes

Dimboukas said:


> What is your favorite recording of Schumann's Piano Concerto? ....


Re Schumann Piano Concerto, I have three favorites, with Argerich leading the way. Then, Arrau and Lupu.

View attachment 4839
View attachment 4840
View attachment 4841


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## Klavierspieler

For Schumann Concerto I like Perahia/Abbado/Berlin Phil.


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## Polednice

Could somebody please recommend me recordings for some of the < Op. 30 piano pieces (Papillons, Davidsbundlertanze, Kreisleriana etc.)?

I've got Richter for the Symphonic Etudes, and I'm very pleased with Uchida for Carnaval, but I don't really know who to look for with the others (though I think I have Pires for Faschingsschwank, and that's very good). I've heard some selections from Aimard and Nelson Freire, but I don't like them - I'm personally not a lover of that much rubato.


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## Vaneyes

Polednice said:


> Could somebody please recommend me recordings for some of the < Op. 30 piano pieces (Papillons, Davidsbundlertanze, Kreisleriana etc.)?
> 
> I've got Richter for the Symphonic Etudes, and I'm very pleased with Uchida for Carnaval, but I don't really know who to look for with the others (though I think I have Pires for Faschingsschwank, and that's very good). I've heard some selections from Aimard and Nelson Freire, but I don't like them - I'm personally not a lover of that much rubato.


Papillons, Op. 2 - Gavrilov (EMI)
Davidsbundlertanze, Op. 6 - Berezovsky (Apex)
Kreisleriana, Op. 16 - Lupu (Decca)


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## Webernite

Polednice said:


> Could somebody please recommend me recordings for some of the < Op. 30 piano pieces (Papillons, Davidsbundlertanze, Kreisleriana etc.)?
> 
> I've got Richter for the Symphonic Etudes, and I'm very pleased with Uchida for Carnaval, but I don't really know who to look for with the others (though I think I have Pires for Faschingsschwank, and that's very good). I've heard some selections from Aimard and Nelson Freire, but I don't like them - I'm personally not a lover of that much rubato.


You seem to like recordings with modern sound as opposed to "classic" interpretations, so if I were you I'd just go to Amazon and search "Uchida schumann" and see what comes up. Then do the same with "Perahia schumann," "Schiff schumann," etc. In addition, Ashkenazy has recorded the complete Schumann piano works, which you could try. None of these people are regarded as great Schumann interpreters of all time, but they're mostly solid and a good starting point. If you want to know specifically what the important works are:

Op. 1 _Abegg_ Variations
Op. 2 _Papillons_
Op. 6 _Davidsbündlertänze_
Op. 7 Toccata 
Op. 9 _Carnaval_
Op. 12 _Fantasiestücke_
Op. 13 _Symphonic Etudes_
Op. 15 _Kinderszenen _
Op. 16 _Kreisleriana_
Op. 17 _Fantasie_
Op. 18 _Arabeske_
Op. 19 _Blumenstück_
Op. 20 _Humoreske_
Op. 26 _Faschingsschwank aus Wien_
Op. 82 _Waldszenen _

+ The 3 piano sonatas

Some of these exist in different versions, but... don't worry about that now.


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## Polednice

Is a lot of rubato part of a "classic" interpretation? That's really the only thing I've had a problem with in some of the recordings I've heard so far.


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## Webernite

Not necessarily. 

A classic interpretation is just whatever I say is good.


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## DABTSAR

i like you moody


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## DeepR

I love some of his solo piano pieces, while others I can't connect with at all. Very much up and down.

This is definitely UP:


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## Hausmusik

I went through a Schumann period last year but it has not lasted. I do not subscribe to the view that he was a poor orchestrator which seems to be an opinion memorized from old liner notes. But I have to confess--and I hope I am not offending anybody--that I think a lot of Schumann's music is mediocre, rambling when it is not repetitive, with forgettable themes thatare weakly developed, and that he rarely rises to his best----his best, for me, being the piano quintet & quartet, the cello concerto, the piano concerto, a small quantity of great lieder, and most of the symphonies (I also enjoy well enough a few of other works, like the Konzertstuck for 4 horns, Andante & Variations in Bb Op. 46...but they aren't major works.)

When he is not at his rare best he can be, IMO, annoyingly discursive and even inept in his handling of his musical materials: (exs: the Op. 7 Toccata, the piano trios, the Fantasiestücke Op. 88 [I do like the Op. 73], 5 Stücke Im Volkston Op. 102, the string quartets, a great deal of the solo piano music including the piano sonatas and some other acknowledged masterworks I dare not even name, etc.). In general, his scherzo movements can get on my nerves.

Comparing him to his near contemporaries, I think he has neither Chopin's or Schubert's melodic/harmonic genius, nor Beethoven's, Mendelssohn's or Brahms's genius for developing a musical idea. He falls between two stools for me.

I understand that some find Schumann's mercurial composing style the epitome of the romantic aesthetic and that is a view I respect. But I find listening to Schumann's piano music, for instance to be like having dinner with a bunch of noisy people engaged in multiple conversations and all of them demanding your attention. I soon tune out.

These views are likely to change however as I am pretty mercurial myself!


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## Clementine

Hausmusik said:


> Comparing him to his near contemporaries, I think he has neither Chopin's or Schubert's melodic/harmonic genius, nor Beethoven's, Mendelssohn's or Brahms's genius for developing a musical idea. He falls between two stools for me.


I partially agree, but you seem to be under the assumption that melody, harmony, and development are the only basis for which to judge a composition. What I particularly like about Schumann is the organic quality to his music. With Brahms, Mendelssohn, and Schubert, there seems to be a very clear method of how to deal with motifs. Brahms in particular will get criticized for being too academic and not enough heart (a sentiment I disagree with), but with Schumann I think this claim is impossible to make. Schumann has to be one of the least self conscious composers out there; he writes what he feels and hears, and be damned to everything else, much like Debussy and Janacek. He's is less about motivic or harmonic complexity (of which he still has plenty of), and more about emotional complexity. Because he's so intuitive this may result in some structural problems here and there, but for the most part I find his music to be consistently inspired.

In general though, I think his structure and treatment of materials is entirely unique and usually effective. While I admire Chopin's piano music and place his miniatures _individually_ on par with Schumann's, it should be noted that Schumann had a much better handle on creating a cohesive set of miniatures. I think structurally Schumann was at his best when dealing with miniatures as evidenced in _Carnaval_, _Davidsbündlertänze_, _Dichterliebe_ etc.

And I hate to go against the grain, but his weakest aspect probably _was_ his orchestration. Having played Schumann, and talked to performers who have played his works, I can tell you that the number one thing spent during rehearsal is getting the balance right. This doesn't mean that it can't sound great, as there are plenty of wonderful recordings of his symphonies and chamber music, but it _is_ evidence that Schumann was not thinking idiomatically while writing, which I think goes hand in hand with him writing more intuitively.


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## Romantic Geek

Anybody who claims that Schumann wasn't a melodic genius hasn't listened to his lieder proper.


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## Andy Loochazee

Clementine said:


> And I hate to go against the grain, but his weakest aspect probably _was_ his orchestration.


Would you like to give a few concrete examples of poor orchestration among specific orchestral works? I'd like to see if I can detect the problems you refer to listening to some reputable performances of the works in question. I must say that so far I haven't been troubled by this alleged problem.


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## Webernite

Schumann wasn't that bad at developing his ideas. The first movements of the Piano Concerto and the _Fantasie_ are as completely derived from the opening material as anything Brahms or Beethoven wrote, and all the pieces of _Kreisleriana_ are audibly related by hidden motifs; the same with the _Davidsbündlertänze_ and some of the other sets. By comparison, Brahms's sets are less unified (with the exception of Op. 116, which is modelled on _Kreisleriana_).

I don't see Chopin as a melodic genius. He wrote arias for piano, not melodies in the normal sense. I can't hum Chopin. At times Chopin was great at developing his ideas, but often he repeats himself and simply changes the ornamentation, or constantly generates new material rather than developing what he has. Schumann does that less.


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## Andy Loochazee

Webernite said:


> I don't see Chopin as a melodic genius. He wrote arias for piano, not melodies in the normal sense. I can't hum Chopin. At times Chopin was great at developing his ideas, but often he repeats himself and simply changes the ornamentation, or constantly generates new material rather than developing what he has. Schumann does that less.


Chopin doesn't inspire me all that much, and would agree that his music is not all that melodic. This not out of lack of effort to listen to his music, as I have virtually everything he wrote and some very good recordings by some top class pianists. I don't dislike Chopin. On the contrary I quite like some of it but in small doses only. The problem is that I find that Chopin's numerous 2-3 minute pieces generally lack cohesion: whilst some are pure delight, so often they're intermingled with others that are are less inspired and the overall result is not very gratifying. Brahms is a hit and miss with regard to piano solo music, but I generally find Robert Schumann is great. Schumann achieved much greater internal consistency with his various thematic works like Carnaval, Davidsbundlertanze, Kinderszenen, Waldszenen. At least, Liszt's piano music is often long enough to cover some interesting musical structure, even if it's not quite as classy and is generally as satisfying (to me) as the best on offer from Schumann. As far as piano music goes, I like Schumann after Beethoven and Schubert in more or less joint first positions.


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## Clementine

Andy Loochazee said:


> Would you like to give a few concrete examples of poor orchestration among specific orchestral works? I'd like to see if I can detect the problems you refer to listening to some reputable performances of the works in question. I must say that so far I haven't been troubled by this alleged problem.


I'll give an example of something I've played, his _Violin Sonata in A Minor._ Throughout the piece the violin part mostly lies on the two inner strings, A and D, which are the least resonant, while meanwhile the piano has a flurry of activity, playing 3 or 4 voices. It's especially difficult to bring these voices out because the piano has to play so quietly in order not to overpower the violin. Now if you can get it right, the end result sounds great, and makes the coda of the first movement all the more effective when it suddenly leaps to the E string, but it requires a lot of work. Schumann isn't like Tchaikovsky, where everyone can play the same dynamic and it sounds great, and he's not like Mahler, who gives very specific directions so that it will sound just right. Instead he leaves it up to the performer, who has to do a lot of changing of dynamics, markings, and articulations. It can sound great, but the fact that he lets the performer do half the work, doesn't always inspire confidence.


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## Webernite

Andy Loochazee said:


> Chopin doesn't inspire me all that much, and would agree that his music is not all that melodic. This not out of lack of effort to listen to his music, as I have virtually everything he wrote and some very good recordings by some top class pianists. I don't dislike Chopin. On the contrary I quite like some of it but in small doses only. The problem is that I find that Chopin's numerous 2-3 minute pieces generally lack cohesion: whilst some are pure delight, so often they're intermingled with others that are are less inspired and the overall result is not very gratifying. Brahms is a hit and miss with regard to piano solo music, but I generally find Robert Schumann is great. Schumann achieved much greater internal consistency with his various thematic works like Carnaval, Davidsbundlertanze, Kinderszenen, Waldszenen. At least, Liszt's piano music is often long enough to cover some interesting musical structure, even if it's not quite as classy and is generally as satisfying (to me) as the best on offer from Schumann. As far as piano music goes, I like Schumann after Beethoven and Schubert in more or less joint first positions.


Oh, I like Chopin. But he is not in every way better than Schumann, as some people seem to believe.


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## Klavierspieler

Clementine said:


> I'll give an example of something I've played, his _Violin Sonata in A Minor._ Throughout the piece the violin part mostly lies on the two inner strings, A and D, which are the least resonant, while meanwhile the piano has a flurry of activity, playing 3 or 4 voices. It's especially difficult to bring these voices out because the piano has to play so quietly in order not to overpower the violin. Now if you can get it right, the end result sounds great, and makes the coda of the first movement all the more effective when it suddenly leaps to the E string, but it requires a lot of work. Schumann isn't like Tchaikovsky, where everyone can play the same dynamic and it sounds great, and he's not like Mahler, who gives very specific directions so that it will sound just right. Instead he leaves it up to the performer, who has to do a lot of changing of dynamics, markings, and articulations. It can sound great, but the fact that he lets the performer do half the work, doesn't always inspire confidence.


Yet the Kreutzer Sonata is very similar (in the respect of balance) and nobody criticizes it.


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## Andy Loochazee

Clementine said:


> I'll give an example of something I've played, his _Violin Sonata in A Minor._ Throughout the piece the violin part mostly lies on the two inner strings, A and D, which are the least resonant, while meanwhile the piano has a flurry of activity, playing 3 or 4 voices. It's especially difficult to bring these voices out because the piano has to play so quietly in order not to overpower the violin. Now if you can get it right, the end result sounds great, and makes the coda of the first movement all the more effective when it suddenly leaps to the E string, but it requires a lot of work. Schumann isn't like Tchaikovsky, where everyone can play the same dynamic and it sounds great, and he's not like Mahler, who gives very specific directions so that it will sound just right. Instead he leaves it up to the performer, who has to do a lot of changing of dynamics, markings, and articulations. It can sound great, but the fact that he lets the performer do half the work, doesn't always inspire confidence.


 I thought we were discussing Schumann's alleged poor orchestration ability, which is normally taken to mean the selection and balancing of instruments in an orchestral framework, not in a violin/piano duo framework as you have chosen. At any rate, among the several versions of this highly splendid work that I have there's not the slightest hint of any poor composition ability. I especially like the versions with Isabelle Faust/Silke Avenhaus and Carole Widmann/Denis Varjon. Besides, even if what you say is true, who says that the level of difficulty of playing is a measure of poor composiing ability? It doesn't mean that Schumann didn't know what he was doing, merely because chunks of the sonata are played on the middle strings. There are dozens, if not hundreds of violin worlks, that are far more difficult to play than Schumann's Op 105. More to the point, do you have any orchestral examples, saying precisely which pieces and where the orchestration is supposedly weak?


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## Klavierspieler

Clementine said:


> And I hate to go against the grain, but his weakest aspect probably _was_ his orchestration. Having played Schumann, and talked to performers who have played his works, I can tell you that the number one thing spent during rehearsal is getting the balance right. This doesn't mean that it can't sound great, as there are plenty of wonderful recordings of his symphonies and chamber music, but it _is_ evidence that Schumann was not thinking idiomatically while writing, which I think goes hand in hand with him writing more intuitively.


It is difficult to play right, therefore it is bad?


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## jalex

Andy Loochazee said:


> More to the point, do you have any orchestral examples, saying precisely which pieces and where the orchestration is supposedly weak?


4th symphony revised version, superfluous doublings all over the place. It's like wading through treacle at times. The original version's instrumentation is mostly better I think. A specific passage in the revised version which irritates me is the 4th movement's second subject. In the original, a breezy dialogue between individual winds; in the revised a heavy, ponderous dirge for tutti winds. Things like this crop up all over the place.


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## jalex

Webernite said:


> Schumann wasn't that bad at developing his ideas. The first movements of the Piano Concerto and the _Fantasie_ are as completely derived from the opening material as anything Brahms or Beethoven wrote, and all the pieces of _Kreisleriana_ are audibly related by hidden motifs; the same with the _Davidsbündlertänze_ and some of the other sets. By comparison, Brahms's sets are less unified (with the exception of Op. 116, which is modelled on _Kreisleriana_).


But at the same time he relies more heavily on lengthy sequences or outright repetitions than Brahms or Beethoven. He wasn't really a continuous developer in the manner of B&B, I don't think.


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## Clementine

Ok ok, one at a time!

In it's most general term, orchestration is a measure of how well the piece is written for the given instruments of any ensemble. I can't speak from experience in Schumann's orchestral works, but I'm told they're difficult to balance, which would account for all the poor performances and recordings (which isn't to say there aren't good ones).

Anyways, difficultly isn't the issue, _clarity_ is. Schumann writes great notes, no one is denying that. Great notes, that often times work together just fine. But his articulations are unclear. Unclear enough that the performers have to go in and change them, i.e. making a forte, mezzo piano, rebowing certain parts, etc. I think you're cutting Schumann some slack because he's a great composer. If an unknown composer nowadays had his piece played in rehearsal with the clarity of a Schumann score, it'd be a mess. It would waste a lot of rehearsal time that could of easily been avoided had the composer articulated the score properly. Schumann's music wasn't that well received in his day, and I tend to wonder if this was because of shoddy performances that could have been avoided for that reason.

Fortunately, thanks to Brahms, Clara, and recordings, we know just how good Schumann's music is, so we take the time to decipher it and figure out the best way to play it. But the best way to play it isn't always how it was originally notated, and in my book, that's called not being a very attentive orchestrator. Ok, I'm done quibbling now.

Also, I've played the _Kreutzer_ as well, and didn't encounter those problems as much. It's certainly more technically challenging, but the score is straightforward enough...


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## Webernite

jalex said:


> But at the same time he relies more heavily on lengthy sequences or outright repetitions than Brahms or Beethoven. He wasn't really a continuous developer in the manner of B&B, I don't think.


Well, I agree he was much less consistent than they were. His piano sonatas aren't very strong developmentally, and neither are some of the other large works like the Allegro in B minor. But as I say, I find the first movement of the _Fantasie _ pretty impressive, even though the left-hand part at the beginning is a bit banal.


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## Andy Loochazee

jalex said:


> 4th symphony revised version, superfluous doublings all over the place. It's like wading through treacle at times. The original version's instrumentation is mostly better I think. A specific passage in the revised version which irritates me is the 4th movement's second subject. In the original, a breezy dialogue between individual winds; in the revised a heavy, ponderous dirge for tutti winds. Things like this crop up all over the place.


I assume you're talking about octave doublings? Yes there are a few, not just in the 4th symphony but in one or two other of Schumann's orchestral works as well, eg the Manfred overture. But octave doublings aren't necessarily a bad thing. They can sometimes add needed texture to enrichen what might otherwise be a rather thin and bland outcome. The problem was that many 20th century orchestras, with their often vast instrumentation compared to the much slimmer orchestras that Schumman was used to, tended to create over-thick textures and general mushiness. I guess that's what you are referring to. However, that's largely history as it has been demonstrated that a good conductor working with a suitable orchestra can avoid such problems by suitably adjusting the balance of the instruments or size of the orchestra or the speed of the playing. I thought all this was quite well known. The same topic has certainly come up several times before here on T-C. I guess that one of the occupational hazards of being a member of this forum is that one has to put up with all this mis-informed old hat regarding Schumann from time to time.


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## Andy Loochazee

Clementine said:


> Ok ok, one at a time! In it's most general term, orchestration is a measure of how well the piece is written for the given instruments of any ensemble. I can't speak from experience in Schumann's orchestral works, but I'm told they're difficult to balance, which would account for all the poor performances and recordings (which isn't to say there aren't good ones).


I'm wondering whether you know what you are talking about. You made a claim about Schumann's alleged poor orchestration. When asked to give a concrete example you spoke about one of his violin/piano duos that you merely said was difficult to play, even though professionals don't have any problems with it. When I asked you to provide a more pertinent example of poor orchestration in the normal sense of orchestral music you say that you can't provide any examples based on experience, merely that you are told they are difficult to balance. Hardly convincing, is it? It rather looks like you're merely repeating ignorant and mis-informed hearsay, probably based on way-out-of-date liner notes on some very old recording.


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## Clementine

Andy Loochazee said:


> It rather looks like you're merely repeating ignorant and mis-informed hearsay, probably based on way-out-of-date liner notes on some very old recording.


Nope, just personal experience and personal accounts. I've shared my thoughts and I'm not going to bicker any further, especially with someone who responds only to a small portion of my post.


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## Klavierspieler

Actually, the thickness is one of things I like so much about Schumann's writing.

You didn't have trouble with balance on the Kreutzer? What part were you playing?


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## Andy Loochazee

Clementine said:


> Nope, just personal experience and personal accounts. I've shared my thoughts and I'm not going to bicker any further, especially with someone who responds only to a small portion of my post.


I'm just telling you that what you have picked up on your travels is old hat and no longer supported by modern musicological opinion. But don't rely on that alone, as I certainly don't. Listen for yourself to some modern renditions of Schumann's symphonies, or his various chamber works. OK Schumann's orchestral writing was not be neat and tidy in terms of performance instruction as say Beethoven but it's manageable enough. You would ve very hard pressed to find any evidence of poor orchestration ability as a matter of practical effect that cannot be resolved by a judicious amount of rebalancing of instruments and size of orchestra etc. If you can actually come forward with some concrete examples of orchestration that is so bad that it's beyond repair then please let me know. For my part, I find Schumann's music to be an extremely rich source of musical enjoyment, provided of course it is performed well, and I have not experienced any problems finding good recordings across the whole range of his output. They seem to get better and better, in fact.


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## Clementine

Klavierspieler said:


> You didn't have trouble with balance on the Kreutzer? What part were you playing?


Piano. Have you played it?

Things I noticed about it while revisiting it today was how he compensated the middle register with his use of double stops, and the really loud parts generally went pretty high up the E string. Overall, the piano part is very transparent, but it's also structured much differently then the Schumann. In the Beethoven the instruments are pitted against one another, in Schumann they sing side by side.


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## Vaneyes

I've never understood the knock against Schumann's Symphonies. They seem rock-solid to me, and I never tire of them. 

I suspect a musicologist started the nonsense. And later, JEG's shameless research & development of his Schubertian-sounding ORR Schumann cycle stoked the fire.


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## Andy Loochazee

Vaneyes said:


> I've never understood the knock against Schumann's Symphonies. They seem rock-solid to me, and I never tire of them. I suspect a musicologist started the nonsense. And later, JEG's shameless research & development of his Schubertian-sounding ORR Schumann cycle stoked the fire.


 The criticism of poor orchestration ability levelled at Schumann goes right back to his own time, probably to around the time he composed his second symphony in 1841. Schumann himself conducted the first performance of this symphony and apparently made a botch of it by way of making various mis-timings. The work came under criticism for poor orchestration when in fact the main problem was poor conducting and lack of rehearsel time. It was withdrawn and revised some 10 years later with added instruments. Interestingly Schumann's first symphony, also written in 1841, was deemed to be a success but that work was premiered by Felix Mendelssohn as conductor. The later revision of Symphony No 4 is now the standard version, but both versions are still performed, and sometimes mixtures of the two. The revised version is the one that has attracted most criticism for having over-thick textures (see comments earlier in the thread), but that's because Schumann deliberately added further "voices" by way of doubling to reduce the risk of mis-timing of entries. Among the several very good recordings of this and other Schumann symphonies, I can't detect any problem whatsover with over-thick textures. In other words any technical problems there may can be overcome, albeit at the cost of some extra effort by the conductor/orchestra. Merely to state that Schumann was a bad orchestrator, and to leave it there as if the problems can't be resolved, as some commentators do, is naïve and unhelpful. But I suppose it's done to give that person something to say, as if it's somehow a profound statement that the rest of us haven't heard of before. Most if not all great composers' symphonic works have to be interpreted, including Beethoven's. Look for example at the enormous variety there is among various renditions of Beethoven's symphonies: the same notes appear, and yet despite very articulate performance instructions much variety occurs in the finished product, as witnessed by the huge amount of discussion one typically finds on which versions sound best.


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## Romantic Geek

Now I haven't looked specifically at Schumann's orchestration in depth. I've really only spent time listening to one orchestral work, his Piano Concerto, which I think is horrifically orchestrated. Maybe it's the recording I own, but I thought the Tchaikovsky PC on it was played really well. It's really heavy and dense--which isn't necessarily a bad thing--but it happens _all the time._ People usually compare Schumann's PC with Grieg's, but undoubtedly Grieg's PC is better. I've heard snipets of the symphonies (I haven't spent the time to really listen to them actively). I feel similarly for what I've heard.

Just compared to his songs and piano works, I find his orchestral works to lack that little click that makes me think: "Ah, this is Schumann!" But I find his songs and piano works top-rate in any stylistic period, not just the Romantic era.


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## jalex

Andy Loochazee said:


> I assume you're talking about octave doublings? Yes there are a few, not just in the 4th symphony but in one or two other of Schumann's orchestral works as well, eg the Manfred overture. But octave doublings aren't necessarily a bad thing. They can sometimes add needed texture to enrichen what might otherwise be a rather thin and bland outcome. The problem was that many 20th century orchestras, with their often vast instrumentation compared to the much slimmer orchestras that Schumman was used to, tended to create over-thick textures and general mushiness. I guess that's what you are referring to. However, that's largely history as it has been demonstrated that a good conductor working with a suitable orchestra can avoid such problems by suitably adjusting the balance of the instruments or size of the orchestra or the speed of the playing. I thought all this was quite well known. The same topic has certainly come up several times before here on T-C. I guess that one of the occupational hazards of being a member of this forum is that one has to put up with all this mis-informed old hat regarding Schumann from time to time.


This isn't anything to do with size of orchestras. The doublings are unnecessary whether you play with a huge string section or a small one. In fact, in the example I gave a small string section would probably be worse since the problem is that too many wind instruments are playing.

Perhaps another occupational hazard is is that a few members believe that all the alleged problems with Schumann's orchestration magically disappear if a smaller string section is used.


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## Klavierspieler

Clementine said:


> Piano. Have you played it?
> 
> Things I noticed about it while revisiting it today was how he compensated the middle register with his use of double stops, and the really loud parts generally went pretty high up the E string. Overall, the piano part is very transparent, but it's also structured much differently then the Schumann. In the Beethoven the instruments are pitted against one another, in Schumann they sing side by side.


Hmmm... I'm going to go tell my violinist to play louder.


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## Hausmusik

Romantic Geek said:


> Anybody who claims that Schumann wasn't a melodic genius hasn't listened to his lieder proper.


Romantic Geek,
I'll gladly concede the point. I only know a small portion of his music for voice. I don't really care too much for lieder so I am judging Schumann as an instrumental composer. Let me place my earlier comments under that huge qualification. I stand by my comments as they apply to the instrumental music. Indeed, most responses to my post have (it seems to me) agreed with most of the substance of what I said, esp. as regards formal incoherence, only disagreed as to whether that was a "good" thing (he's more "intuitive," free, big-R Romantic) or a "bad" thing.


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## Hausmusik

Andy Loochazee said:


> Brahms is a hit and miss with regard to piano solo music, but I generally find Robert Schumann is great. Schumann achieved much greater internal consistency with his various thematic works like Carnaval, Davidsbundlertanze, Kinderszenen, Waldszenen.


I surely won't dispute the view that Schumann was superior to Brahms as a solo piano composer. But when it comes to Schumann and Chopin, wasn't Chopin more inventive *harmonically* in terms of advancing the vocabulary of chromaticism? I don't hear (or see, reading the music) the same harmonic daring. Please note I did write melodic _and_ harmonic for Schubert and Chopin, and stand by the view that in both respects they surpass Schumann.

Broadening the topic to Schumann's instrumental music more generally, when I think of Schumann, this is what I think of as characteristic:






Thematically impoverished, helterskelter and rambling, kind of annoying in its repetitiveness and almost total lacking interesting or appealing musical ideas. This is not Schumann at his rare best, I admit, but it is not at all uncharacteristic. Also I am not singling out a work from his weak period--this is from 1842, his "chamber music year" in which he produced his three string quartets, the piano quintet and the piano quartet (the last two I really like).

A few years later produced the first two piano trios. This is the finale of Trio #2, Op. 80. Not nearly as annoying as the above piece, but still meandering and musically uninteresting. It's only five minutes long but seems endless and with no sense of musical direction or purpose.


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## Webernite

I like the first video a lot more than the second. Says something about my tastes.

Chopin was harmonically more advanced than Schumann - I can agree with that. But I like Schumann's harmony more than Mendelssohn's or Dvorak's, and that's a more suitable comparison if we're talking about chamber music. Schumann was also the more innovative composer _rhythmically_. Stravinsky liked Schumann. In fact, I suspect one reason you find Schumann "helterskelter" is that he is actually quite rhythmically complex at times, especially in the chamber music.


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## Hausmusik

Webernite said:


> Schumann was also the more innovative composer _rhythmically_. Stravinsky liked Schumann. In fact, I suspect one reason you find Schumann "helterskelter" is that he is actually quite rhythmically complex at times, especially in the chamber music.


Could be. But I used helterskelter to refer to the Op. 88 finale, and I don't think there's any meaningful comparison to be made between Stravinsky's polyrhythms, etc., and the insistent, repetitive, and (to my ear) tiresome march rhythm there. I don't think this is a case of my being not "up" to Schumann's forward-thinking rhythmic complexity---I think that's a red herring.

You mention Mendelssohn and Dvorak as being more relevant comparisons for Schumann's melodic and harmonic inventiveness. I think Schubert may be even apter, & I think it's interesting that Schumann in his musical criticism was at such a loss to understand Schubert's last three piano sonatas, with their subtle harmonic daring. As for Mendelssohn, I already mentioned him before as one with superior skill to Schumann at developing a musical idea. I'd say he also was quite clearly a superior melodist, at least in his instrumental music (leaving aside the lieder). I know I much prefer to listen to Mendelssohn's instrumental music than to Schumann's---on their musical merits, I'd take Mendelssohn's string quartets and piano trios over Schumann's any day. (I mean, compare their two A Minor quartets, Op. 13 and Op. 41/1 respectively, both of which are so indebted to Beethoven's Op. 132, and look how well Mendelssohn manages to put his own stamp on the genre while Schumann tries and does not really succeed in emerging from Beethoven's shadow. And Mendelssohn's was a much earlier work in his career than Schumann's was in his.)

I suppose it comes down to a matter of taste, and there is no arguing taste. I've tried to explain as clearly as I can why Schumann's music, the chamber and piano music especially, generally is unappealing to me personally, and given some examples. It is not necessary for anybody to agree with me of course, but having spent years listening to Schumann and knowing much of his music (other than the lieder) quite well, I am not likely to be reasoned out of it with examples of music I already know (e.g. somebody urged _Carnaval _ on me, a work I know very well and do not find appealing in the least). Maybe my tastes will change in the future, but for now there's very little in Schumann's oeuvre that appeals to me musically, except for the piano quintet and quartet, the symphonies to a certain degree, and the two major concertos; I also have a mild appreciation for a few other works. I do respect his importance as an influence on Brahms, a composer I love.


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## Vesteralen

I like Schumann.


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## Hausmusik

Here's better than average Schumann, the finale from his most famous string quartet, #3 in A Major, a work that some people praise as his best quartet and which (based on my own experience) is finding its way onto more and more live string quartet recitals. I don't find this music to be annoying like the Op. 88--it's quite pleasant enough--but the movement is about 7 1/2 minutes long and highly repetitive, and it takes fully about 6 minutes for the rather banal thematic idea to go anywhere really interesting--at least, interesting to me.

Placed side by side with the finales of the most outstanding quartets of Brahms (Op. 51/2, say), Schubert (D. 887 or D. 810), Beethoven (say, one of the Razumovskies), Mendelssohn (Op. 13 or Op. 80), Dvorak, is there even a contest? Schubert for example is also highly repetitive, but there's never any doubt that things are happening, that the musical theme is being put through interesting turns and developments; there's tension, excitement, drama. Not here, though, at least not to my ear.


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## Vesteralen

I wasn't aware music history was supposed to be a contest.


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## Andy Loochazee

Romantic Geek said:


> Now I haven't looked specifically at Schumann's orchestration in depth. I've really only spent time listening to one orchestral work, his Piano Concerto, which I think is horrifically orchestrated. Maybe it's the recording I own, but I thought the Tchaikovsky PC on it was played really well. It's really heavy and dense--which isn't necessarily a bad thing--but it happens _all the time._ People usually compare Schumann's PC with Grieg's, but undoubtedly Grieg's PC is better. I've heard snipets of the symphonies (I haven't spent the time to really listen to them actively). I feel similarly for what I've heard. Just compared to his songs and piano works, I find his orchestral works to lack that little click that makes me think: "Ah, this is Schumann!" But I find his songs and piano works top-rate in any stylistic period, not just the Romantic era.


Only spent time listening to one of Schumann's orchestral works? Oh dear, never mind. All I will say is that I'm not impressed.


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## Hausmusik

Vesteralen said:


> I wasn't aware music history was supposed to be a contest.


"Contest" was a figure of speech for "comparison." We aren't talking about music history in this thread so much as we are discussing questions of taste, which involves making comparisons.


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## Vesteralen

Hausmusik said:


> "I like this composer better than this composer for X reasons" is not a contest. It is a comparison.


Sorry..in a strange mood today...just responding to your phrase "is there even a contest?"


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## Hausmusik

Vesteralen,
I got that but it took me a minute. I've edited my post below.


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## Andy Loochazee

Hausmusik said:


> I surely won't dispute the view that Schumann was superior to Brahms as a solo piano composer. But when it comes to Schumann and Chopin, wasn't Chopin more inventive *harmonically* in terms of advancing the vocabulary of chromaticism? I don't hear (or see, reading the music) the same harmonic daring. Please note I did write melodic _and_ harmonic for Schubert and Chopin, and stand by the view that in both respects they surpass Schumann.


Was he, Chopin being more harmonically more daring than Schumann, that is? Its a new one on me if that's correct. I had understood that Schumann was also quite pioneering in his approach. But what if your assertion is true and does it matter? I couldn't care care less, quite frankly. It's the overall sound that I'm interested in, not isues of daring and novelty and the amount of dissonance or whatever. Please note that I wasn't suggesting that Chopin was some kind of slouch in the piano solo department. On the contrary, I fully accept that he's well and truly up with the very best. To repeat the essence of what I said earlier, I prefer Schumann to Chopin because I find the lack of cohesion in many of Chopin's 2-3 minute works not very gratifying, vis-a-vis the far better constructed longer sets of inter-connected miniatures composed by Schumannn.


> Broadening the topic to Schumann's instrumental music more generally, when I think of Schumann, this is what I think of as characteristic: [video of last movement of Schumann's Fantasiestucke for piano trio, Op 88]


I couldn't disagree more with your adverse assessment of this work. I've just played through the whole work, all 18 minutes 18 seconds of it, with the same recording, which I happen to like best of all, and I find that it's a splendid work, taken as a whole. The earlier movements are delicate and moving before reaching the more hectic finale you selected, and overall I find they balance very well together. If you haven't already done so may I suggest you try listening to the whole work, as you may have acquired a biased result based on only the last movement from it. Once you've done so, I'd be interested to hear how you think Schumann might have improved the ending of this work.


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## Vesteralen

Hausmusik said:


> It is not necessary for anybody to agree with me of course, but having spent years listening to Schumann and knowing all of his music (other than the lieder) quite well, I am not likely to be reasoned out of it with examples of music I already know (e.g. somebody urged _Carnaval _ on me, a work I know very well and do not find appealing in the least).


I can accept the objectivity of some of your expressions, but I think the above comment is more indicative of non-susceptiblity to what many of us consider to be the distinctive charms of Schumann.

There's no reason why you should turn around and start loving this music, but in this case, at least, your lack of appreciation would seem to me to be purely personal in nature.

For me, personally, what I like especially about Schumann's suites of miniatures is that they absorb me. Some of the sounds can be a bit unpleasant to my ears, but I find even that to be part of their fascination. When I'm listening to Schumann, I don't always love the sounds of what I'm hearing, but at least my mind doesn't _*wander*_ as it does when I listen to some of his comtemporaries (including Chopin) who made a lot of pleasant, but less_ involving _music. (And yes, that's totally subjective and personal - but, nonetheless, honest.)


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## Hausmusik

Andy Loochazee said:


> If you haven't already done so may I suggest you try listening to the whole work, as you may have acquired a biased result based on only the last movement from it. Once you've done so, I'd be interested to hear how you think Schumann might have improved the ending of this work. [If you think I'm taking the ****, you'd probably be ...., I'll leave you guess.]


Andy, as I read this you are saying that if my tastes differs from yours I must somehow not have done my homework. I assure you, I have heard this piece in full many times, usually in the Argerich-Kremer-Maisky version on DG, and familiarity has hardly improved my opinion of it; on the contrary. Also, I don't understand your last sentence at all.



Vesteralen said:


> I can accept the objectivity of some of your expressions, but I think the above comment is more indicative of non-susceptiblity to what many of us consider to be the distinctive charms of Schumann.
> 
> There's no reason why you should turn around and start loving this music, but in this case, at least, your lack of appreciation would seem to me to be purely personal in nature.


Yes, as is your appreciation for them. As I remarked earlier, beyond giving examples and explaining our reasons as best we can out of respect for Schumann and each other, we eventually run up against the impasse of subjective taste. Difference of taste is the spice of life and of classical music message boards.


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## Andy Loochazee

jalex said:


> This isn't anything to do with size of orchestras. The doublings are unnecessary whether you play with a huge string section or a small one. In fact, in the example I gave a small string section would probably be worse since the problem is that too many wind instruments are playing.Perhaps another occupational hazard is is that a few members believe that all the alleged problems with Schumann's orchestration magically disappear if a smaller string section is used.


Interesting. But I remain mystified. Are you saying that this alleged weakness in Schumann's Symphony No 4 comes through in the performance of this work, such that you can actually hear the thick "treacly" sound to which you referred previously? If so, can you please provide an example from any recording of this symphony you are familiar with, giving details of the exact movements/bars. I'll do my best to give it a fresh listen to see if I can hear it too, among my various copies of the symphony. Otherwise I'll be bound to assume that you are merely making theoretical comments that have no practical relevance whatsoever in terms of adverse effect on one's listening enjoyment of this work.


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## Vesteralen

Hausmusik said:


> Yes, *as is your appreciation for them*. As I remarked earlier, beyond giving examples and explaining our reasons as best we can out of respect for Schumann and each other, we eventually run up against the impasse of subjective taste. Difference of taste is the spice of life and of classical music message boards.


Oh yes..absolutely. There are indeed some distinctively objective faults to be found with Schumann the composer. But, in the end, it can not be denied that he _speaks_ to some of us in a very unique way. I think it works both ways. When we don't particularly like something we don't like to be told we should..and when we do like something, we don't like to be told we shouldn't. Whether we mean to come across that way or not, it's almost inevitable that our words are going to be taken that way on a forum like this.


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## Hausmusik

Two thoughts:
1. A year ago I'd probably haven been arguing the other (your) side on this. Tastes change and there is no accounting for it.
2. Listening now to the Piano Quintet, a marvelous work that needs no apology.


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## Andy Loochazee

Hausmusik said:


> Andy, as I read this you are saying that if my tastes differs from yours I must somehow not have done my homework. I assure you, I have heard this piece in full many times, usually in the Argerich-Kremer-Maisky version on DG, and familiarity has hardly improved my opinion of it; on the contrary. Also, I don't understand your last sentence at all.


 Well then, if you've heard the whole work what do you think of the preceding movements? Can you please clarify in detail what you make of them. And can you please also explain how you might re-write the last movement in order to make it fit in better with the preceding ones? If you could you possibly provide an alternative finale I'm sure the Schumann fan club would be forever grateful.


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## Webernite

Hausmusik said:


> Here's better than average Schumann, the finale from his most famous string quartet, #3 in A Major, a work that some people praise as his best quartet and which (based on my own experience) is finding its way onto more and more live string quartet recitals. I don't find this music to be annoying like the Op. 88--it's quite pleasant enough--but the movement is about 7 1/2 minutes long and highly repetitive, and it takes fully about 6 minutes for the rather banal thematic idea to go anywhere really interesting--at least, interesting to me.
> 
> Placed side by side with the finales of the most outstanding quartets of Brahms (Op. 51/2, say), Schubert (D. 887 or D. 810), Beethoven (say, one of the Razumovskies), Mendelssohn (Op. 13 or Op. 80), Dvorak, is there even a contest? Schubert for example is also highly repetitive, but there's never any doubt that things are happening, that the musical theme is being put through interesting turns and developments; there's tension, excitement, drama. Not here, though, at least not to my ear.


I dunno. In the end, I think you're placing unnecessary emphasis on minor works of Schumann's like the string quartets and miscellaneous chamber pieces. Nobody's claiming much on behalf of these works. They are repertoire-worthy: that's about it. It's possible to dig up uninteresting works by any composer.

You seem to like the major works. I'd say that puts you in the same category as most Schumannians.


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## Hausmusik

Andy Loochazee said:


> Well then, if you've heard the whole work what do you think of the preceding movements? Can you please clarify in detail what you make of them. And can you please also explain how you might re-write the last movement in order to make it fit in better with the preceding ones? If you could you possibly provide an alternative finale I'm sure the Schumann fan club would be forever grateful.


Andy, if the purpose of this ridiculous comment is to get me to put you on ignore, you win.


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## Andy Loochazee

Webernite said:


> I dunno. In the end, I think you're placing unnecessary emphasis on minor works of Schumann's like the string quartets and miscellaneous chamber pieces. Nobody's claiming much on behalf of these works. They are repertoire-worthy: that's about it. It's possible to dig up uninteresting works by any composer. You seem to like the major works. I'd say that puts you in the same category as most Schumannians.


Agreed. It's hardly fair to try to condemn a composer's ability in an entire genre based on singling out just one work from the entire range, and then focusing on one movement of it which, superficially at least, might seem to be repetitious and lacking in direction. As I've said, the work in question (Op 88) sounds fine overall, at least to my ears, but I wouldn't place it at the top of the quality spectrum of Schumann's entire chamber repertoire.


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## Hausmusik

Webernite said:


> I dunno. In the end, I think you're placing unnecessary emphasis on minor works of Schumann's like the string quartets and miscellaneous chamber pieces. Nobody's claiming much on behalf of these works. They are repertoire-worthy: that's about it. It's possible to dig up uninteresting works by any composer.
> 
> You seem to like the major works. I'd say that puts you in the same category as most Schumannians.


It is a fair point. A year ago my knowledge of Schumann's music was restricted to the major works many of which I liked. I rated him higher then. As I have moved beyond them out of enthusiasm for those core works, I have found less to my liking and many works I positively disliked. This isn't the case for me as I explore more obscure corners of the work of Beethoven, Schubert, Haydn, Brahms....where I am constantly finding music I enjoy.


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## Andy Loochazee

Hausmusik said:


> Andy, if the purpose of this ridiculous comment is to get me to put you on ignore, you win.


Without any prompting or excuse, you've chosen to use strong, if not inflammatory, language to condemn the entire chamber music of Schumann based on one youtube extract, i.e. the finale to Op 88. I have simply asked you (a) whether you have heard the entire work, (b) what you think of its earlier movements, (c) how you think you could improve upon its finale. Why do you think it is a ridiiculous request for me to ask how you might improve the finale? If you are not a composer all you had to say is that you might have taken it at a different pace, developed this or that previous theme, or finished up in a different key, or whatever. That you can't do any of this doesn't surprise me, but it's not a ridiculous question given that you appear to know better than Schumann on how to write good finales to multi-movement chamber music.


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## Very Senior Member

Hausmusik said:


> It is a fair point. A year ago my knowledge of Schumann's music was restricted to the major works many of which I liked. I rated him higher then. As I have moved beyond them out of enthusiasm for those core works, I have found less to my liking and many works I positively disliked. This isn't the case for me as I explore more obscure corners of the work of Beethoven, Schubert, Haydn, Brahms....where I am constantly finding music I enjoy.


 Ah that's a shame: peaking too soon. You might try talking to a doctor about it. "Dear doctor: I was just about to get excited about Schumann when my fancy suddenly switched to Schubert. I don't know what's up with more, can you give me something to stop it happening again".


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## Andy Loochazee

@Jalex. In my post No 162, which was in response to one of yours, I requested details of any recordings of Schumann's Symphony No 4 where you had noticed the thick "treacly" sound, which you said is caused by alleged poor orchestration, in this case due to excessive "doubling". I have several recordings of the symphony and haven't noticed any problems of this nature, but I remain ready to explore the matter further in the light of any information you can provide on specific references to the exact location of these alleged problems.


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## Hausmusik

Andy, I wonder what Schumann himself might have thought of your choosing to advocate for his music by rudely harassing anybody who finds fault with his music. It is no great compliment to Schumann to imply by your actions that that is the particular kind of advocacy his music requires.

Very Senior, your post is sexually vulgar, rude, and ungrammatical, and I don't appreciate any of it.


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## Andy Loochazee

Hausmusik said:


> Andy, I wonder what Schumann himself might have thought of your choosing to advocate for his music by rudely harassing anybody who finds fault with his music. It is no great compliment to Schumann to imply by your actions that that is the particular kind of advocacy his music requires.


 In case you hadn't noticed, this section of the forum is not primarily designed to allow people to come in and deliver heavy criticism of particular composers, as you have done. Take a look and you'll see that it states "_leave your favourite a message"_. I know this for sure since I was here when Daniel (Asst Admin) created this section of the forum. Now obviously, nobody will be surprised if some comments are less than fully flattering, but you seem to have come here to set forth your stall along the lines that you were once a Schumann fan but now that you've advanced somewhat in your listening experience you can see that he wasn't that great in comparison with others, eg Schubert. With all this in mind, I would reply to your question by asking what Schumann himself might think if he faced the kind of message you have delivered, describing some of his work as "annoying", "meandering" "musically uninteresting", having "no sense of musical direction or purpose", and such like. Incidentally, a few months ago we had another character whose mission was to knock Schubert, quoting odd bits of what amounted to ignorant rubbish that he had evidently picked up mainly from another forum, hoping that no-one would notice the source of his comments. The trouble was that it was spotted, as some of us, myself included, have been around a bit and have seen it all before, on this and other forums. Lastly, I don't usually bother to get that closely involved in specific composer discussions. The reason is that I never learn anything worth learning, and they usually frustrate me. On this occasion I've made an exception.


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## peeyaj

Schumann. He is a competent composer. But I found some of his works difficult to get attached to. His Piano concerto, is gorgeousness though.

More than else, I love Schumann as a music critic. I am indebted to him because of his championing of Schubert's neglected works. I adore his musical writings and I learned a lot about them. Frankly, I like Schumann as a music writer than a composer. That's only me though.


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## Romantic Geek

Hausmusik said:


> I surely won't dispute the view that Schumann was superior to Brahms as a solo piano composer. But when it comes to Schumann and Chopin, wasn't Chopin more inventive *harmonically* in terms of advancing the vocabulary of chromaticism? I don't hear (or see, reading the music) the same harmonic daring. Please note I did write melodic _and_ harmonic for Schubert and Chopin, and stand by the view that in both respects they surpass Schumann.
> 
> Broadening the topic to Schumann's instrumental music more generally, when I think of Schumann, this is what I think of as characteristic:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thematically impoverished, helterskelter and rambling, kind of annoying in its repetitiveness and almost total lacking interesting or appealing musical ideas. This is not Schumann at his rare best, I admit, but it is not at all uncharacteristic. Also I am not singling out a work from his weak period--this is from 1842, his "chamber music year" in which he produced his three string quartets, the piano quintet and the piano quartet (the last two I really like).
> 
> A few years later produced the first two piano trios. This is the finale of Trio #2, Op. 80. Not nearly as annoying as the above piece, but still meandering and musically uninteresting. It's only five minutes long but seems endless and with no sense of musical direction or purpose.


I have to disagree that Chopin's harmonies are more inventive. They simply aren't. They sound different than Schumann, but the actual harmonies can be found in the music of Beethoven, Schumann, and Schubert. Chopin frequently uses extended dominants and secondary dominants (also called applied chords) and that "Chopin sound" typically occurs on these types of chords. Schumann uses these chords. I think what separates them is the voicing and melodies that are placed above it. Chopin's harsh modulations can be found in Schubert (less so in Schumann). I find Chopin to not be so inventive, but rather a rethinker. All the stuff he did though was well within practice when he was writing.


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## Romantic Geek

Andy Loochazee said:


> Only spent time listening to one of Schumann's orchestral works? Oh dear, never mind. All I will say is that I'm not impressed.


Lol, I wish I could see the whole message but it was edited by Krummhorn 

I've heard more than one of Schumann's orchestral works. I've just only really delved and studied the score of one of them. I find them less impressive than Schubert's orchestral works (in my opinion of course) and one reason I think that is because of how dense the music is (but not dense like Mahler or Wagner dense, which is OK dense).


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## Klavierspieler

Hausmusik said:


> Very Senior, your post is sexually vulgar, rude, and ungrammatical, and I don't appreciate any of it.


I don't think his comment was directed at you....


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## Andy Loochazee

Romantic Geek said:


> Lol, I wish I could see the whole message but it was edited by Krummhorn  I've heard more than one of Schumann's orchestral works. I've just only really delved and studied the score of one of them. I find them less impressive than Schubert's orchestral works (in my opinion of course) and one reason I think that is because of how dense the music is (but not dense like Mahler or Wagner dense, which is OK dense).


Don't worry, the section that was excised by Krummhorn had nothing to do with you. My reference to you is fully complete, just as I wrote it.

Based on your latest comments, I see that you consider Schumann's Piano Concerto to be "dense", this being the only Schumann orchestral score you say you have studied. I'm sorry to say that I find this to be yet more gloriously vague information. Comments about things like "poor orchestration" and how "dense" his music is are not useful unless it can be shown that they give rise to poor results in terms of listening. In what way do you consider it to be "dense"? Do you mean it's too dense, and if so how does this affect the resulting sound?

I assume you aware that the PC is widely considered to be one of Schumann's top-rated works, and ranks quite rightly very highly in the entire piano repertoire on most assessments I've ever seen. I think you will find that it was ranked at No 5 in T-C's top 100, and at No 3 in DDD's top 60 keyboard concertos. Doesn't this mean that your comments don't really have any validity?

I have also requested specific details from Jalex but nothing has yet been offered to substantiate his claims about "poor orchestration", particularly of Symphony No 4. I do hope that I get an answer soon, as I'm champing at the bit to hear how the alleged defects he has gone on about (i.e. excessive "doubling") have actually affected adversely the performance of this symphony. I've tipped off a few friends who also like Schumann about what I hope is this impending revelation, and they too are eagerly awaiting the information.


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## Hausmusik

Klavierspieler said:


> I don't think his comment was directed at you....


That would be unlikely, since he was replying to one of my posts, and quoted it in its entirety, in his post.


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## Klavierspieler

Hausmusik said:


> That would be unlikely, since he was replying to one of my posts, and quoted it in its entirety, in his post.


I'm pretty sure was poking fun at people trying to get you like music you just don't like. In a very sarcastic manner, of course...

I mean, it was so ludicrous I don't think he intended it to be taken seriously.


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## Webernite

Orchestration, orchestration...

Schumann used a lot of doubling. But so did Wagner and Mozart and Mahler, and they sound fine. He composed using a piano. But so did Ravel and Stravinsky, and they sound fine.

90% of the time, criticisms of orchestration represent an inability to distinguish between orchestration and harmony. The same orchestration will sound thick or light depending on what notes you put in. Schumann and Chopin's counterpoint isn't always perfect: the orchestra exposes that, just as playing them on a synthesizer exposes it (you can play Mozart on a synthesizer and it works). The proof that Schumann's orchestration isn't that bad is that Mahler's reorchestration of the symphonies doesn't sound much better. Likewise, Mozart reorchestrating the _German Requiem_ would not make it sound sunny, Rimsky-Korsakov could not have done much with the beginning of the _Grande Polonaise Brillante_, etc.

I'm not denying the possibility of poor orchestration, but unless a piece is actually unplayable by the chosen instruments, or absurdly unbalanced, I think it's usually just a case of some orchestrations being more interesting or inspired than others.


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## Andy Loochazee

Webernite said:


> I'm not denying the possibility of poor orchestration, but unless a piece is actually unplayable by the chosen instruments, or absurdly unbalanced, I think it's usually just a case of some orchestrations being more interesting or inspired than others.


 The above section of your post re-inforces what I've been saying all along, in effect that the "_proof of the pudding ...._", on which matter you'll notice that I'm still awaiting the evidence of alleged poor orchestration in the case of the 4th Symphony.

On this matter of the 4th Symphony, may I ask whether you have noticed any problems resulting from the alleged excessive use of doublings, along the lines suggested? I'm sure that I haven't, based on several versions of the work in my possession, including both the original (1841) and revised version some 10 years later, as well as Mahler's re-orchestration as performed by Chailly/Gewandhaus. I don't like Chailly's version so much as either the originals, and I can't detect any significant improvement on the orchestration front.

Assuming not, otherwise I guess you would have mentioned it, I wonder if anybody else reading through these recent posts is able to illustrate the problem by referencing any recording of the 4th Symphony they're familiar with (provided of course it's one of reputable quality and not too old), specifying the exact area(s) where the sound is supposedly thick and muddy etc, caused by whatever orchestration problem they might deem relevant. Please talk us through the exact problems as you hear them, and don't just rely on vague criticism you've possibly read somewhere in old liner notes or whatever.

I'd like to nail this one if I can because I'm disappointed reading all this negative stuff continually being trotted out by some people without any evidential backup despite making various requests for it. I'm not holding my breath, however, and this will be my last comment on this subject if nothing is produced by way of hard evidence.


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## Webernite

I don't know Schumann's orchestral scores well enough to go into detail. But his revisions of his works have always had a reputation for being weaker than the originals.


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## Andy Loochazee

Webernite said:


> I don't know Schumann's orchestral scores well enough to go into detail. But his revisions of his works have always had a reputation for being weaker than the originals.


 Crikey, was my request so badly expressed? You appear to have misunderstood. I wasn't asking you or anyone else to comment on orchestral scores. I was simply asking if you have any recordings of Symphony No 4 in which any of the alleged defects ("treacly" textures, excessive use of "doublings" etc) can be heard by the ear, so that I check it out. A very simple request which I don't know how to express any more clearly.


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## Webernite

I didn't read your post very carefully. 

Any way, no, I haven't got a particular recording I could point you to. I usually listen to Karajan, which doesn't stand out as particularly treakly.


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## Andy Loochazee

Webernite said:


> I didn't read your post very carefully.  Any way, no, I haven't got a particular recording I could point you to. I usually listen to Karajan, which doesn't stand out as particularly treakly.


 Surprise, surprise. I'm sure there must be someone out there with a treakly sounding one, judging from the certainty by which some people assert that Schumann was a poor orchestrator who was way over-generous with "doublings" and whose composition was "dense" in a non-good way. Maybe we'll hear about one soon. If so I do hope it's not something out of the Ark, as I won't be very sympathetic to that.


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## Hausmusik

Andy, Please stop jumping down everybody's throat. No one here is out to get you. We just have differing opinions.

All of us--including myself--have said some positive things about Schumann in this thread. There has also been criticism. If Schumann is a major composer he can take the criticism. Only insignificant composers cannot survive criticism. And no composer is above it.

It is OTT to harangue people for "failing" to share your enthusiasm for Schumann, or to insist as you did with me that I only have the right to dislike the Op. 88 if I can compose an alternative finale. Please! Would you apply the same ridiculous rule to yourself? "I'd like to see _you_ make a better movie!" is the fanboy's mantra and has never won a convert.

You are also being disingenuous when you accuse me of basing my criticism of Schumann on a single work when I have posted YT clips of no fewer than three musical examples and discussed others.

You are being a real drag on the conversation and frankly doing Schumann no favors as you are dampening whatever enthusiasm I have for him with your strongarm tactics and zealotry.


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## Romantic Geek

Andy, I'll take another listen to the PC and Symphony No. 4 again in a couple of weeks (currently bogged down with school things). I'll comment specifically and maybe even include some snippets of the score that I think represent what I mean. For me, I usually feel dense music when the orchestration is set very low in multiple instruments, which allows for a lot of overtones to collide with each other (why playing Beethoven piano sonatas sounds muddy today compared to on the period fortepiano). I suspect that is the case here, but I will get back to you at some point.


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## Vesteralen

I like Schumann. (That says as much as anyone has said, and it *can't be argued*.  )


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## samurai

Vesteralen said:


> I like Schumann. (That says as much as anyone has said, and it *can't be argued*.  )


So do I.


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## lilmoz

like chopin and schubert he was a real poet,a genius,i think his wife influence him a lot!


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## Ravndal

I want to start exploring Schumann some more. Any recommendations for a beginner?


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## campy

Ravndal said:


> I want to start exploring Schumann some more. Any recommendations for a beginner?


For the symphonies, Bernstein on Sony. Or Szell, also on Sony. Or Paray on Mercury. Karajan is also good.

Zimermann/Karajan for the piano concerto.


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## Ravndal

thank you, but im more interested in which pieces i should start with? =)


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## Webernite

Ravndal said:


> thank you, but im more interested in which pieces i should start with? =)


Schumann's two most important bodies of work are his piano music and his songs. Do you prefer piano or singing? The major piano works include _Carnaval_, the Fantasy in C major, the Piano Concerto, and _Kreisleriana_.


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## Ravndal

I prefer piano. How is his symphonies/orchestral work? I'm not a big fan of chamber music though.


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## Vaneyes

Ravndal said:


> thank you, but im more interested in which pieces i should start with? =)


Piano Concerto, Symphonies 1 - 4, Piano Quintet, Piano Quartet.


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## Webernite

Ravndal said:


> I prefer piano. How is his symphonies/orchestral work? I'm not a big fan of chamber music though.


His orchestral music has a mixed reputation. If you read this thread, you'll see people arguing about whether it's any good. He wrote four symphonies - they're probably his best known orchestral works and are fairly frequently performed. Try them first, then move on to the overtures, cello and violin concertos, and other things.


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## jalex

Webernite said:


> His orchestral music has a mixed reputation.


Does it? I thought its reputation was of the 'it's great BUT...' kind, not 'love it or hate it'.

I suggest symphonies 3 and 4 and the Manfred overture as his best orchestral works.


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## Ravndal

thanks guys. very helpfull!


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## jalex

Also, not to point out the obvious but the piano concerto also counts as an 'orchestral work' and by general consensus it is his best work for any large ensemble so don't skim over that one.


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## Klavierspieler

For piano: 
_Kreisleriana_
_Papillons_
_Carnaval_
Fantasie in C
_Humoreske_
_Waldszenen_
_Fantasiestücke_, Op. 12

For Orchestra:
Symphonies 2-4 
Manfred Overture
Overture, Scherzo and Finale, Op. 52
Piano Concerto
Cello Concerto
Konzertstück for four horns, Op. 86
Introduction and Allegro Appasionato, Op. 92

For Song:
_Dichterliebe_
_Liederkreis_, Op. 39
_Zwölf Gedichte_, Op. 35
_Myrthen_


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## Lunasong

An interesting graph which shows the relationship between Schumann's creative output and his mental illness. I got this from Reddit and the comments include that the change in number of works is probably better explained by Schumann going through different genre phases. For example, in 1840 he suddenly decided he wanted to write lieder, which are much smaller in scale than most other genres, leading to a dramatic spike.


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## violadude

Lunasong said:


> An interesting graph which shows the relationship between Schumann's creative output and his mental illness. I got this from Reddit and the comments include that the change in number of works is probably better explained by Schumann going through different genre phases. For example, in 1840 he suddenly decided he wanted to write lieder, which are much smaller in scale than most other genres, leading to a dramatic spike.


This graph makes me sad


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## Novelette

Schumann was known to have composed dozens of works, primarily fugues for piano, while in the asylum. Clara was forbidden to visit him while he was incarcerated [except for the last two days of Robert's life!], but Joachim and Brahms visited him frequently. Brahms and Schumann would play the latter's four-hand piano works on the dusty [and reportedly out of tune, to Brahms' chagrin!] piano in the main ballroom of the old asylum.

Brahms and Clara received custody of the works that Schumann wrote out [it is unknown how complete they were, especially since the "nurses" would punish Schumann for acting badly by depriving him of his pen, paper, and piano privileges], but fearing that they were a product of his madness, they destroyed them.

So I would alter, slightly, the caption and call this a histogram of Schumann's works that were eventually published. It makes sense, too, that he did not compose any works that were published in 1844 since that was the year of his and Clara's tour through Latvia to St. Petersburg, then to Moscow, then back to St. Petersburg, then back to Leipzig, shortly after which he took up residence in the city of Dresden.

Not an altogether happy year undoubtedly, but it was also a very busy year during which Schumann cast off his musical journal editing [a time-consuming and unprofitable enterprise for Schumann] and devoted himself to larger forms. Schumann often composed his music in order to supplement the family's income. Clara had hardly toured much between her wedding and 1844, children were born into the household, and they maintained a lavish lifestyle with servants, chefs, etc. The Schumann's usually had to draw upon their large capital stock of savings in order to make ends meet, as they usually spent more per year than they made. The Russian tour was fabulously successful, despite the ghastly expense involved in making the trip itself. So Schumann had a free hand to devote himself to the beginnings of "Faust", and to the demands of family life.

Still, this histogram is an interesting illustration.


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## Novelette

Also, the graph is a bit misleading also because Schumann published a large number of lieder in 1840, many of which were composed in earlier years. It was a particularly turbulent year when Clara and Robert were finally married.

Money was a particularly prickly issue between Robert and Clara, with Clara insisting that she needed a husband who could support the comfortable lifestyle to which she was accustomed as a child. It was with finances that Herr Wieck most nearly succeeded in persuading the courts to block their marriage. Though the marriage was ultimately granted, and Herr Wieck defeated, Clara was still very attached to her father and wracked by guilt for having disobeyed him. Schumann tried to earn the arbitrary figure that he pledged that he could, in fact, earn with his current engagements. But those engagements paid little, his editorial work brought only a pittance, and his capital was earning a smaller interest income than Schumann anticipated. So he took upon himself to "dig up" some old lieder that he had written and sold them for publishing.

He settled upon drawing upon the capital itself, rather than laboring so much to produce the number of works to bring in the necessary income, and thus his published output declined substantially in 1841.


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## Sonata

fascinating stuff, sad for sure. Why wasn't Clara permitted to visit him?


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## Novelette

The day that Schumann plunged himself into the Rhine, he stated that he was afraid that he was going to harm Clara, another of those very distressing fears to which he was prone.

When he went to the asylum, he wrote occasional letters to her and she to him, but he largely tried to forget her and his children. A terrible time for all of them, to be sure! Brahms and Joachim were the emissaries between them, but the conditions of the asylum, and the condition of Schumann himself were such that she might have been in danger. Of course, it also would have been extremely painful for her, she was devoted to him.

On the last two days of his life, Schumann was virtually immobilized. Unable to walk, hardly able to eat; pale and extremely emaciated, Clara was allowed to see Robert after nearly two years apart. Even though at that point, Robert had hardly spoken of Clara at all [referring to her as one part of a "former life"], she went to him. Reports are that he smiled widely when he saw her, and she stayed by his bed for hours speaking to him and feeding him wine from her finger tips [he was unable to eat]. Reportedly, he put his left arm around her and held her for a few moments. The next day, he was dead.

Truly one of the great, dramatic romances in Classical Music. One of the finest pianists of the century who [wrongly] believed that her being a woman constrained her ability to compose [her compositions are masterful!], married to a titanic composer who lost his ability to play the piano at more than an intermediate level. Both were giants.


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## Sonata

That's really something, thank you for sharing. I've really become fascinated with Clara recently, and intend to pursue her available works. I have a disc of her lieder and it's lovely.


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## Novelette

Sonata said:


> That's really something, thank you for sharing. I've really become fascinated with Clara recently, and intend to pursue her available works. I have a disc of her lieder and it's lovely.


 She really was a fascinating person! A woman of iron will, a pianist to have rivaled Thalberg, and a composer of unrecognized greatness. I love her music!

I can't imagine having been able to be among the first to hear her performing Brahms' Handel Variations! What an occasion that must have been...


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## Air

I often wonder if Schumann's music would have been as brilliant if he hadn't suffered from bipolar disorder. I would say that the lack of productivity during his periods of depression was more than made up for by the overabundance of creativity that occurred during his manic periods (understatement, just consider the lieder from the year 1840 alone). I guess that's what it means to be a genius sometimes - mentally unstable.


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## Novelette

It's absolutely incredibly that Schumann wrote his first piano trio in under a week. Such a beautifully polished work.

Would that I could be prone to such bursts of creativity. =\ I'd even take the null-periods in exchange.


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## millionrainbows

World Violist said:


> The poetic genius, and, when it comes down to it, the greatest Romantic in music history. He was born into a bookseller's family, for goodness' sake. So really, what do all of you think of Robert Schumann?
> 
> He was amazing at his piano miniatures and pieces for one instrument and piano, especially voice, with which he effectively became the successor to Schubert as the great songwriter of the century.
> 
> His symphonies and concerti are very poetic and romantic, but the scoring and orchestration are terrible. Beyond that, I really see nothing wrong at all with Schumann.
> 
> And for those of you who can't get over the fact that he had multiple personalities, get over it. If all you can think of is his mental state... my case is settled.


I think it is _so cool_ that Schumann went insane. I find this fascinating. Likewise, I simply adore other artists who went insane, like jazz pianist Bud Powell, whose deterioration can be heard in the Verve box set; or Nick Drake, the folksinger who committed suicide; Allan Wilson, ditto; Hendrix, maybe; Syd Barrett; Alexander "Skip" Spence, etc.

Personally, I think Beethoven got a little batty by the time of the Grosse Fugue, with its compulsive, repeating figures; I think Schoenberg was a little eccentric; Satie was weird; Cage was weird; Grace Slick pulled a shotgun on sherriffs; I could go on & on. Brahms? Nahhh, he just needed to lose the beard.


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## Novelette

I recently read John Worthen's biography of Schumann.

As far as biographies go, it was very disappointing. Worthen begins with an appeal to look upon Schumann as a more complex creature than the constant obsession with his ultimate mental deterioration [a result of tertiary syphilis]. But then he spend 2/3 of the book obsessing over that same mental deterioration, except in arguing against numerous popular speculations. Worthen claims to write a book freed of such fixation, but in truth, he fixates upon that mental deterioration by dispelling, point for point, popular theories.

The part that is properly biographical is interesting, if scattered, but Mr. Worthen spends very little time talking about the relationships Schumann carried with fellow musicians, writers, etc. An anecdote here or there, but the name Brahms shows up 30 times in total, at most. Liszt slightly more often, Mendelssohn less often. The relationships a person has with others is every bit as much genuinely biographical detail as refutation of unlikely ailment attributions.

I walked away from that biography very disappointed. Still, Mr. Worthen makes a frank disclaimer at the beginning that he is no music theorist and will not engage in possibly amateurish discussions on that field. I have already ordered another biography that I hope will more satisfactorily address the life of Robert Schumann the man and the composer.


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## hreichgott

Novelette said:


> the constant obsession with his ultimate mental deterioration


Psychoanalyzing the dead is never valuable. I recently read Peter Ostwald's Schumann biography and it was, well, more psychoanalysis of Schumann by someone who'd never met Schumann and lived in a different century. Seriously, Freud messed up so profoundly with Dora and she was right there -- why would we ever trust analyses of historical figures from beyond the grave?


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## Novelette

hreichgott said:


> Psychoanalyzing the dead is never valuable. I recently read Peter Ostwald's Schumann biography and it was, well, more psychoanalysis of Schumann by someone who'd never met Schumann and lived in a different century. Seriously, Freud messed up so profoundly with Dora and she was right there -- why would we ever trust analyses of historical figures from beyond the grave?


It's very tempting to try to interpolate one malady or another. For me, though, the most important fact is that Robert Schumann left us some profoundly beautiful and complex music. His devotion to Clara, a titanic pianist and composer in her own right, pervades much of his music. For me, the most interesting aspects of Schumann's life and his art are those that are the clearest.

The details of Schumann's mental deterioration seems consistent with the ravages of latent syphilis, but that doesn't alter the profundity of his creative spirit. There has always been this fascination with the trope of madness and genius. True or not, I don't think it impacts our appreciation for Schumann's music. And that's coming from one who loves knowing as much as possible about the composer's life and the circumstances therein in which a certain work originates. It gives a contextual and illustrative impression that is irresistibly compelling.


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## Klavierspieler

Novelette said:


> I recently read John Worthen's biography of Schumann.
> 
> As far as biographies go, it was very disappointing. Worthen begins with an appeal to look upon Schumann as a more complex creature than the constant obsession with his ultimate mental deterioration [a result of tertiary syphilis]. But then he spend 2/3 of the book obsessing over that same mental deterioration, except in arguing against numerous popular speculations. Worthen claims to write a book freed of such fixation, but in truth, he fixates upon that mental deterioration by dispelling, point for point, popular theories.
> 
> The part that is properly biographical is interesting, if scattered, but Mr. Worthen spends very little time talking about the relationships Schumann carried with fellow musicians, writers, etc. An anecdote here or there, but the name Brahms shows up 30 times in total, at most. Liszt slightly more often, Mendelssohn less often. The relationships a person has with others is every bit as much genuinely biographical detail as refutation of unlikely ailment attributions.
> 
> I walked away from that biography very disappointed. Still, Mr. Worthen makes a frank disclaimer at the beginning that he is no music theorist and will not engage in possibly amateurish discussions on that field. I have already ordered another biography that I hope will more satisfactorily address the life of Robert Schumann the man and the composer.


_
@Novelette:_ Have you tried John Daverio's book, _Robert Schumann: Herald of a "New Poetic Age"_? I read it and found it to be quite good and very informative.


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## Novelette

Klavierspieler said:


> _
> @Novelette:_ Have you tried John Daverio's book, _Robert Schumann: Herald of a "New Poetic Age"_? I read it and found it to be quite good and very informative.


I haven't read that yet, Klavierspieler. I think I'll order it today, per your advice. Thanks! :tiphat:


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## Op.123

I absolutely love Schumann's music and I really like his violin concerto which doesn't seem to get much appreciation.


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## Cheyenne

Burroughs said:


> I absolutely love Schumann's music and I really like his violin concerto which doesn't seem to get much appreciation.


I heard a great performance of it the other day (Menuhin/Furtwängler I believe, must check) and must agree with you, it's quite good.


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## Novelette

Burroughs said:


> I absolutely love Schumann's music and I really like his violin concerto which doesn't seem to get much appreciation.


Agreed! Before two years ago, I had never even heard that Schumann composed a violin concerto. Out of all of the concerts I've attended featuring violin concertos, there were: Brahms, Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn, Telemann, Spohr, Vieuxtemps, Paganini, Mendelssohn, Shostakovich, Vivaldi, Tchaikovsky, Bruch, Dvorak, Elgar, Prokofiev, Sibelius, and perhaps also Stravinsky [I have only vague memories of Stravinsky's]--why never Schumann's?

On the whole, I find Schumann to be shamefully underperformed, at least around here. There seems to be an almost pathological obsession here with performing works by Copland, Gerschwin, Bernstein, Glass, etc... Composers for whom I have a distinct distaste. How many times has Gustav Holst's "Planets" been performed around here in the past few years? Far too many? How many works of Mendelssohn or Schumann? Virtually none.


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## Op.123

Air said:


> Lipatti w/Karajan (I love this pair of performer/conductor) and the Philharmonia Orchestra 1948 is probably the greatest version of the work.
> 
> My personal favorite, however, is Richter w/Rowick and the Warsaw NPO 1958.
> 
> On DVD (w/Schumann's 4th Symphony!): Argerich w/Chailly (Another BRILLIANT match) and the Gewandhausorchester 2006. In contrast, there is Gilels live in Moscow (but too slow for my taste).
> 
> Having said that, there are SO MANY great recordings out there: Serkin/Ormandy, Zimmerman/Karajan, Michelangeli/Giulini, Arrau/Dohnanyi, to name a few. I've also heard Moravec/Mata is good.
> 
> Listen to Cortot (very good interpretation) or Gieseking (atrocious third movement) if you want to hear a lot of wrong notes.


Yes I like the Richter interpretation. I just wish the piano wasn't so out of tune...


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## Neo Romanza

I disagree with the OP's opinion that Schumann was a terrible orchestrator. Now, granted, he wasn't the best orchestrator around, but he's not a _terrible_ one. I mean one listen to _Symphony No. 3_ will reveal a man who clearly had complete control of the orchestra. His _Violin Concerto_ is probably the one work that gets the most dirt thrown at it from an orchestration point-of-view. It seems that a conductor has to work hard on the orchestral balances and keep from overpowering the soloist. But, I agree it's not well orchestrated, but it's still a splendid work and contains some exquisite violin writing.

I mean just listen to this:






Absolutely sublime!!!


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## Novelette

Neo Romanza said:


> I disagree with the OP's opinion that Schumann was a terrible orchestrator. Now, granted, he wasn't the best orchestrator around, but he's not a _terrible_ one. I mean one listen to _Symphony No. 3_ will reveal a man who clearly had complete control of the orchestra. His _Violin Concerto_ is probably the one work that gets the most dirt thrown at it from an orchestration point-of-view. It seems that a conductor has to work hard on the orchestral balances and keep from overpowering the soloist. But, I agree it's not well orchestrated, but it's still a splendid work and contains some exquisite violin writing.
> 
> Absolutely sublime!!!


You may also enjoy his Op. 131 Fantasy for Violin and Orchestra. Opinions are divided about it: surely not as memorable as the violin concerto, but contains exquisite sections for the violin!


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## Neo Romanza

Novelette said:


> You may also enjoy his Op. 131 Fantasy for Violin and Orchestra. Opinions are divided about it: surely not as memorable as the violin concerto, but contains exquisite sections for the violin!


This is definitely on my list of Schumann works to listen to, Novelette. Thanks for the suggestion. I'll take one of Schumann's 'lesser' works over most post-WWII composers entire oeuvre.


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## Novelette

Neo Romanza said:


> This is definitely on my list of Schumann works to listen to, Novelette. Thanks for the suggestion. I'll take one of Schumann's 'lesser' works over most post-WWII composers entire oeuvre.


You can never go wrong with Schumann.

Thus spake he who has been obsessed with Schumann for 1.5 years!


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## Vaneyes

Tom Service's guide for Symphony 2. No mention of my favorite (VPO/LB) amongst his recommended recs.

http://www.theguardian.com/music/to...29/symphony-guide-schumann-second-tom-service


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## Itullian

Vaneyes said:


> Tom Service's guide for Symphony 2. No mention of my favorite (VPO/LB) amongst his recommended recs.
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/music/to...29/symphony-guide-schumann-second-tom-service


I love the DG Bernstein too.
The re mastered DG twofer has the best sound.


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## alan davis

Another devoted apostle of Schumann here. I especially love his vocal works, not only the leider. His opera "Genoveva" despite what the critics have said about it over the years (how many critics have ever written a memorable note anyway) contains much wonderful music, as does his "Scenes from Goethe's Faust", "Das Paradies und Die Peri" and "Der Rose Pilgerfahrt". Please explore this music.


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## Guest

Yet another Schumann devotee here. I got hooked several years ago and have collected everything he wrote, often in many different versions. 

I liked the article by Tom Service. It's so nice to read a piece like this by someone who seems genuinely to know what he's talking about, rather than a load of often quite ignorant criticism that sometimes one finds in some other places. 

I have all of Service's recommended versions of Symphony No 2, except for the Abbado version. Nor am I familiar with the VPO/LG version, as mentioned by others, but guess that's also very good. 

However I do have three more versions as well, all based on recommendations I heard from radio broadcasts. I can't pretend that I notice a big difference between any of them, but I guess that my favorite would be the version by Norrington/Stuttgart Radio SO, which I find to be nicely crisp, bright, lively and clear.

Schumann is definitely among my top 10 favorite composers.


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## millionrainbows

Michel Block plays Robert Schumann (O.M. Records International, Dallas). Oh, man, this is a great, poetic rendering of Schumann! The liner notes say it all: "What he is telling us...we were innocent children once, and we too carried this child into "adulthood"...and we too, like Schumann, fell once upon a time in love with Love and then with the object of love...we too walked arms outstretched into that land...So we can, and shall, go on hearing him with a tear, and a constriction in our hearts that will move us deeply and cause us ineffable "pain"...He did, indeed, die for these, our "sins"..." Yeah, recorded at Indiana University, that's what alerted me, so much good modern music has emerged from there...


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## Novelette

There really isn't a work of his that I dislike.

A year ago, I acquired his complete lieder. He truly excelled in that genre, as did Clara.


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## mstar

Recently, revived in my memory was the Fantasie in C Major. I really do enjoy Schumann's style, though I've also heard that he was a schizophrenic.... I know that near the end of his life Schumann went a little, well, I don't want to say crazy, though that he was a schizophrenic I haven't know before this! In any case, I cannot help feeling terrible for the composer when the Brahms/Clara affair is mentioned. Also, how about those two destroying most of Schumann's last works? I find this ridiculious! Schumann was too great for that.


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## Ingélou

mstar said:


> Recently, revived in my memory was the Fantasie in C Major. I really do enjoy Schumann's style, though I've also heard that he was a schizophrenic.... I know that near the end of his life Schumann went a little, well, I don't want to say crazy, though that he was a schizophrenic I haven't know before this! In any case, I cannot help feeling terrible for the composer when the Brahms/Clara affair is mentioned. Also, how about those two destroying most of Schumann's last works? I find this ridiculious! Schumann was too great for that.


Schumann died in an asylum (Endernich) after a failed suicide attempt. It has been posited that he had bipolar disorder (not schizophrenia), but others say he may have died of syphilis picked up when he was at university. The very sad story is that Clara was forbidden to make contact with him by the doctors, and he seems more or less to have given up on life. Everyone was acting for the best, but so sad...

Edit: It is known from letters that Clara and Brahms had feelings for each other, but not whether they consummated an affair, and nobody doubts Clara's devotion to Robert. Clara was over ten years older than Brahms, who was a friend of Robert's too, and he gave Clara a lot of help with the children while Robert was in the asylum. Brahms had a lot of girlfriends but never married. Clara took up the life of a concert pianist.

An excellent discussion of these biographical problems can be found in Michael Steen, *The Lives & Times of the Great Composers*, Cambridge, 2003*

'There has been much speculation as to the reasons for Schumann's condition... Dr Richarz' papers recording his view that Schumann was suffering from the final stage of cerebral neurosyphilis were only made public in 1994. Schumann died _with_ syphilis, but whether he actually died _of_ it is less clear. ... It seems possible that he may finally have died from self starvation, perhaps from despair at the prospect of never being let out, perhaps because of revulsion at the treatment and the diet: it is known that there was an epidemic of suicides by self-starvation at Endernich at one stage.' - Steen page 417

Final PS - Myself, I'm with Vaneyes on this one. See the post below.


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## Vaneyes

I think more recent research, and perhaps more thorough research, gives Brahms the benefit of the doubt in the "Clara affair" and other matters. Tag words - loyalty, respect.


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## Guest

mstar said:


> Recently, revived in my memory was the Fantasie in C Major. I really do enjoy Schumann's style, though I've also heard that he was a schizophrenic.... I know that near the end of his life Schumann went a little, well, I don't want to say crazy, though that he was a schizophrenic I haven't know before this! In any case, I cannot help feeling terrible for the composer when the Brahms/Clara affair is mentioned. Also, how about those two destroying most of Schumann's last works? I find this ridiculious! Schumann was too great for that.


I would like to add a few comments in order to clarify the longevity of Robert's mental problems, the timing of the Clara/Brahms relationship, and partly in answer to your last query about the destruction of some of Robert Schumann's last music. There's nothing new here, as it's all well documented in published sources.

Robert Schumann suffered mental ups and downs, which are thought to have been caused by bipolar disorder, for many years prior to his death. He had good periods and bad periods, with some stretching for as long a year or so at a time. During his "good" years he wrote lots of very fine music, e,g. 1840 being known as his "year of song" when wrote many of his famous song cycles and lieder.

He may have inherited this mental instability condition. He was the youngest of 5 children. His sister Emilie committed suicide at the age of 20 as the result of a mental disorder. One of his brothers, Julius, died of cholera in 1833 and this brought about a depressive episode for Robert, which apparently led to a suicide attempt that year. This was some 21 years before another one in 1854, which finally led to his demise 2 years later. He was rescued from the Rhine, into which he had thrown himself, and asked to be put away in an asylum in case he did harm to Clara. Just prior to this suicide attempt he had reported hearing angelic "voices" including from the deceased Schubert. It was the asylum's director who felt that it would be unwise for Clara to visit him. She complied with that advice, except at the end when I believe she did go along for one visit. During this time in the asylum, Brahms was a regular visitor.

The long-lasting Brahms and Clara Schumann affair is also very well known. It was one of the big talking points in musical circles for a sizeable chunk of the second half of the 19th C. Brahms came to live with the Schumanns whilst Robert as in the asylum but this was because he was already a family friend, and came to offer practical assistance. He sacrificed his own career to help Clara and her young family over this two year period. As far as is known, the more intimate relationship did not begin until after Schumann's death. Brahms had a very high regard for Robert both as a friend and as a composer. The relationship between Clara and Brahms wasn't continuous, as Brahms went off from time to time seeking other female company. In fact, at one point he strongly fancied one of the Schumann daughter, Julie, and dedicated his famous Alto Rhapsody, Opus 53, to her. Despite the relationship with Brahms, Clara Schumann remained dedicated to Robert for the rest of her life, and worked tirelessly to promote his works via her concert tours.

As for the destruction of some of Schumann's last works, this was done by Clara and Brahms purely out of concern to protect Robert's reputation as it was considered at the time that some of these works appeared strange and out-of-keeping with his usual style, and the thought was that some may have been tainted by the onset of Robert's madness. I'm not sure that there is any clear record of how many such works were actually destroyed. One that was discarded but not destroyed surfaced many decades later was his Violin Concerto. It's a difficult piece to play but has gained in appeal over the past few decades after its discovery. I love this work, and would say that it's probably my favourite violin concerto of all. It's nothing like the VC's by Beethoven, Mendelssohn, Brahms, Tchaikovsky etc. It may not appeal at first but after a few listens it becomes captivating and mesmerising.


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## senza sordino

I've got an unremarkable Naxos recording of Schumann's Piano Concerto, very nice. Last Spring I bought a two CD set of Kubelik's version of all four symphonies. These are terrific, I really enjoy listening to them. A decade ago I played second violin in the fourth symphony. I've never been a big fan, it's only recently I gave him some more time and consideration.

I don't know anything about his violin concerto. Does anyone know anything of this piece?


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## Vaneyes

senza sordino said:


> I've got an unremarkable Naxos recording of Schumann's Piano Concerto, very nice. Last Spring I bought a two CD set of Kubelik's version of all four symphonies. These are terrific, I really enjoy listening to them. A decade ago I played second violin in the fourth symphony. I've never been a big fan, it's only recently I gave him some more time and consideration.
> 
> I don't know anything about his violin concerto. Does anyone know anything of this piece?


It's gaining in popularity, as people look for "new works" from the Masters.  I like Kremer/Muti (EMI).

OT, but another often overlooked piece is Lalo Cello Concerto. I like Chang/Pappano for this, also on EMI. :tiphat:


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## Novelette

senza sordino said:


> I don't know anything about his violin concerto. *Does anyone know anything of this piece?*


It's a great work as far as I'm concerned. I also highly recommend his Phantasie in C, Op. 131 for solo violin and orchestra. Perhaps not one of his strongest works, but it's Schumann!


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## shangoyal

To me, Schumann sounds like the most intelligent of composers. He's not the most boisterous, not the most sad, not the most lyrical, but the most intelligent - he seems to be "in the know".


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## scratchgolf

shangoyal said:


> To me, Schumann sounds like the most intelligent of composers. He's not the most boisterous, not the most sad, not the most lyrical, but the most intelligent - he seems to be "in the know".


He was truly amazing. I consider him one of the "Three S's" of composers, along with Schubert and Sbeethoven. &#55357;&#56841;


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## Blake

shangoyal said:


> To me, Schumann sounds like the most intelligent of composers. He's not the most boisterous, not the most sad, not the most lyrical, but the most intelligent - he seems to be "in the know".


I wouldn't say he was the most intelligent. He was quite the looney-tune. A manic-depressive who tried killing himself by jumping into the river... was rescued, but sent to an asylum because he was mad.


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## spradlig

I'm wouldn't call myself an expert, but I like his violin concerto very much. I don't think it deserves to be neglected. As far as knowing anything about it, Google and Wikipedia will tell you quite a bit. I think the piece was lost until the 1960's or so, which doesn't fully explain its continued neglect.



Novelette said:


> It's a great work as far as I'm concerned. I also highly recommend his Phantasie in C, Op. 131 for solo violin and orchestra. Perhaps not one of his strongest works, but it's Schumann!


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## Vaneyes

scratchgolf said:


> He was truly amazing. I consider him one of the "Three S's" of composers, along with Schubert and Sbeethoven. &#55357;&#56841;


I know you meant to include *Schnittke*.


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## shangoyal

Vesuvius said:


> I wouldn't say he was the most intelligent. He was quite the looney-tune. A manic-depressive who tried killing himself by jumping into the river... was rescued, but sent to an asylum because he was mad.


Yes, I know the story. But his music is really intelligent.


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## millionrainbows

"I am affected by everything that goes on in the world...and then I long to express my feelings in music." -Robert Schumann

Yeah, that's the ticket! Emotions, feelings! Although I usually speak here in more objective terms, I am compelled to say how much I was affected by listening to Schumann's Symphony No. 4 in D minor, op. 120 yesterday. After it was over, I felt as if I had passed through an emotional wringer. Weak, fragile, and drying my tears. Yes, I wept. The second movement is always what gets me. After that sad little theme, there is a chordal progression that really gets to me, with the sustained tonic note under it. Not the theme itself, but the solemn chords which follow. There's something to grasp onto in every movement of this, though...and the whole thing builds to a magnificent climax at the end.
Schumann, as he said above, had a strong desire to communicate, and that's what makes him one of the greats. How tragic his life was, and the story of him throwing himself into the river is heart-wrenching. His piano music is wonderful as well, if you can get a sympathetic reading without too much bombast. This is poetry, delicate, and fragile as the man was. The emotion and tenderness conveyed is what makes it work for me.


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## Scientist

Especially these days, I appreciate his music a lot. When I was young, I had a hard time grasping his musical ideas, but as time went on, and I matured, I grew very fond of Schumann's music.

And these days, perhaps because of some tragic events in my life, through which I am still battling, I am even more interested than usual in Schumann's compositions.


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## millionrainbows

Yeah, I guess when you're young and think you will live forever, Schumann is not quite as poignant. He makes me want to read poetry, and go back in time to my grandmother's house.


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## millionrainbows

What's a good biography to read?


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## Klavierspieler

_Robert Schumann: Herald of a "New Poetic Age"_ by John Daverio


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## Blake

shangoyal said:


> Yes, I know the story. But his music is really intelligent.


Yea, it's pretty awesome.


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## hpowders

So tell me Robert, is heaven like what you expected? Is life with Clara blissful up there? Or is death simply like turning off a light switch and heaven, just a man-made myth?


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## neoshredder

I would love to know that answer. But all we got now is the Bible for our hopes.


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## hpowders

You just have to believe and hope for the best!


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## Marschallin Blair

Fantasiestücke, Op. 12. Martha Argerich, late seventies, Concertgebouw:

http://www.amazon.com/Live-Concertg...=1-1&keywords=argerich+schumann+concertgebouw

Sans pareil.


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## Marschallin Blair

"Really intelligent". . . and breathtakingly beautiful. . . and sublime.


shangoyal said:


> Yes, I know the story. But his music is really intelligent.


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## Guest

Someone tell me about his opera or other vocal/orchestral shenanigans.


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## Vesteralen

millionrainbows said:


> What's a good biography to read?


Robert Schauffler's *Florestan: The Life and Music of Robert Schumann* was written in 1945, but it's still a great biography, very balanced and it has the added bonus of terrific analysis of all the compositions in the second half.


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## Joris

I liked the biography by Joan Chissell: 
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39076000984901;view=1up;seq=2


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## Marschallin Blair

Joris said:


> I liked the biography by Joan Chissell:
> http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39076000984901;view=1up;seq=2


Interesting book. Thanks for the courteous regard.


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## Marschallin Blair

*Most Cherished Schumann Symphonies*

















The Karajan Rhenish is a salon favorite of mine; I can listen to it when reading or with company-- its charm of streamlined beauty very much in evidence.

The Sinopoli Schumann First with its brisk tempi is just pure esprit.


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## Klavierspieler

arcaneholocaust said:


> Someone tell me about his opera or other vocal/orchestral shenanigans.


This is probably the area I'm least familiar with in regards to Schumann, but I know his _Szenen aus Goethes Faust_ is highly regarded, though. I've heard good things about _Manfred_, too; and his two oratorios, _Das Paradies und die Peri_ and _Der Rose Pilgerfahrt_ are quite excellent. I also like the _Requiem for Mignon_, Op. 98b.


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## Guest

arcaneholocaust said:


> Someone tell me about his opera or other vocal/orchestral shenanigans.


Here's a list of Schumann's choral and dramatic works, excluding lieder and song cycles (courtesy of Wikipedia):

Op. 50, Das Paradies und die Peri, oratorio (1841-43)
Op. 71, Adventlied for soprano, chorus and orchestra (1848)
Op. 81, Genoveva, opera (1848)
Op. 84, Beim Abschied zu singen for chorus & winds (1848)
Op. 93, Motet, "Verzweifle nicht im Schmerzenstal" for double chorus and organ ad lib (1849, orchestrated 1852)
Op. 98b, Requiem for Mignon for solo voices, chorus and orchestra (1849)
Op. 108, Nachtlied for chorus and orchestra (1849)
Op. 112, Der Rose Pilgerfahrt oratorio (1851)
Op. 115, Overture and incidental music, Manfred (1848-49)
Op. 116, Der Königssohn (Uhland), for solos, chorus and orchestra (1851)
Op. 123, Festival overture on the Rheinweinlied for orchestra and chorus (1853)
Op. 139, "Des Sängers Fluch" (Uhland) for solo voice, chorus and orchestra (1852)
Op. 140, "Vom Pagen und der Königstochter" for solo voice, chorus, and orchestra (1852)
Op. 143, "Das Glück von Edenhall" (Uhland) for solo voice, chorus, and orchestra (1853)[1]
Op. 144, "Neujahrslied" for chorus and orchestra (1849-50)
Op. 147, Missa sacra (1852)
Op. 148, Requiem (1852)

......

I have most of these works.

Probably the most famous of all is the oratorio, _Das Paradies und die Peri._ This work has rather fallen out of fashion these days but it was once (in pre WW2 days especially) popular and held in quite high esteem. I reckon it contains some wonderful heart-rending choral work, albeit possibly a tad on the slushy side for some modern tastes, in rather similar manner to Mendelssohn's _Elijah_, interest in which too has waned somewhat over the decades for similar reasons. I consider _Das Paradies und die Peri_ to be a "must-have" work for anyone seriously interested in Schumann. I have two versions. The one I'd recommend is by the Monteverdi Choir/ORR conducted by John Eliot Gardiner, on the Archiv label.

_Genevova_ is Schumann's one and only opera. To my ears it's quite good, but I'm not a big opera fan. The version I have involves is the Chamber Orchestra of Europe conducted by Nikolaus Harnoncourt on Teldec label. This opera (probably like most operas) has some especially good bits, and it's these that I have programmed out for occasional playing, rather than listen to the whole lot.

_Nachtlied_, Op 108, is a very nice work. My version is again by the Monteverdi Choir/ORR conducted by John Eliot Gardiner, on the Archiv label.

Schumann wrote one ordinary Mass, Op 147, and two Requiems: Op 98 Requiem for Mignon, and Op 148 Requiem. To be honest, none of these works is all that popular, but I give them a run through now and then as they do contain some very nice touches in places.

In addition to the works listed above, there is another partly choral piece, WoO 03 - _Scenes from Faust_, which Wikipedia doesn't list, for reasons I do not know. This contains some very appealing material, which is worth checking out.


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## Klavierspieler

Partita said:


> In addition to the works listed above, there is another partly choral piece, WoO 03 - _Scenes from Faust_, which Wikipedia doesn't list, for reasons I do not know. This contains some very appealing material, which is worth checking out.


It's there, right below the Requiem.


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## lupinix

I really liked his piano concerto a lot =] (except for the second movement, I wonder if it is humorously intented btw?) And his carnaval is great. I also really liked a piece which we listened to in a lesson at school, it was a lied/song but cant remember the title'or opus number=[ I really wish to hear it again. Which of his song cycles would be a good start for someone not familiar with most of his music?


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## Novelette

lupinix said:


> I really liked his piano concerto a lot =] (except for the second movement, I wonder if it is humorously intented btw?) And his carnaval is great. I also really liked a piece which we listened to in a lesson at school, it was a lied/song but cant remember the title'or opus number=[ I really wish to hear it again. Which of his song cycles would be a good start for someone not familiar with most of his music?


The second movement is a great transition between the first and third movements. The piano concerto famously originated as a one-movement fantasy, into which Clara convinced Robert to expand into a full concerto. I never had the impression that it was ever intended to be such a substantial movement either.

With respect to his song cycles, I would highly recommend Landkreis, Op. 24; Dichertliebe, Op. 48; and Myrthen, Op. 25. Of the particular song, it's arguable that "Widmung" is Schumann's most famous song:






I find all of Schumann's lieder to be wonderful, and I would also highly recommend Clara's lieder to boot. Happy listening!


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## lupinix

Novelette said:


> The second movement is a great transition between the first and third movements. The piano concerto famously originated as a one-movement fantasy, into which Clara convinced Robert to expand into a full concerto. I never had the impression that it was ever intended to be such a substantial movement either.
> 
> With respect to his song cycles, I would highly recommend Landkreis, Op. 24; Dichertliebe, Op. 48; and Myrthen, Op. 25. Of the particular song, it's arguable that "Widmung" is Schumann's most famous song:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I find all of Schumann's lieder to be wonderful, and I would also highly recommend Clara's lieder to boot. Happy listening!


Thanks very much! and that song you post is beautiful.


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## hpowders

My favorite Schumann symphony is the second, especially in the Karajan performance.


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## shangoyal

Like some people say that composers like Haydn and Bruckner were people whose sensibilities were rustic and unrefined - i.e., for all the brilliant music they composed, their outlook on life was centred in rural traditions.

I sometimes feel Robert Schumann was almost the opposite. This might be true for many other Romantic era composers since by then, there was both more settlement of population in cities, and more musical audience in the cities. But Schumann's music is where I detect for the first time a very 'urbane' sound that hints at a very long range towards the New Age or a highly specialised society living in big cities, with all its products like computers, information, fast cars, etc. He sounds like he has a very literary sensibility, expressing the very nature of human beings, or the nature of their experiences in his music. While other composers might be greatly skilled at composing music which gives the listener great pleasure, Schumann tends to be more focused on telling a story - perhaps this was begun by Beethoven or somebody, and perhaps this is a key facet of Romanticism - that of an individual human expression, with a certain disregard for commonalities and rules.

I feel that in Schumann's music, there is somewhere an unwholesomeness, not in the quality of the music, but in the emotion expressed - it is like he tells his story often through regret or similar feelings. 

But this is not at all true for all his works - only for some. At other times in his life, he probably explored other dimensions of his composing skills.


----------



## Itullian

For the symphonies.......

Karajan
Klemperer
and...............................


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## Joris

and Gardiner


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## Trev

Okay first post here. Trying to solve a puzzle, so your patience is requested. I am not a classical music aficionado, as the following sentences will prove.

I heard on NPR a story about a young girl in a concentration camp who was asked to play violin (?) for a high-ranking Nazi officer. As I recall, she performed a piece by Robert Schumann had a title that sounded like "Toy Meh-Vai" (phonetically) and it was described as "transcendently beautiful" - I have searched the internet but cannot find it. Turns out her life may have been spared for her moving performance.

Is there a chance that anyone can take these few bits of data and let me know the title so that I might listen to it? Thanks in advance, though I imagine it's a long shot. I appreciate your consideration. The people at Performance Today didn't know. And I don't recall the NPR show on which I heard the story.


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## Mahlerian

Trev said:


> I heard on NPR a story about a young girl in a concentration camp who was asked to play violin (?) for a high-ranking Nazi officer. As I recall, she performed a piece by Robert Schumann had a title that sounded like "Toy Meh-Vai" (phonetically) and it was described as "transcendently beautiful" - I have searched the internet but cannot find it. Turns out her life may have been spared for her moving performance.


That would be Träumerei, from Schumann's piano cycle Kinderszenen. I'm sure someone's arranged it for violin, as it's the most popular piece from the set.


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## Trev

Mahlerian said:


> That would be Träumerei, from Schumann's...Kinderszenen.


Perfect, thank you! That's it.

The story is about Anita Lasker-Wallfisch and she played that piece on cello at Auschwitz for Josef Mengele. It's a beautiful piece, I listened to the Pablo Casals performance.

Again, thank you.


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## Mahlerian

Trev said:


> Perfect, thank you! That's it.
> 
> The story is about Anita Lasker-Wallfisch and she played that piece on cello at Auschwitz for Josef Mengele. It's a beautiful piece, I listened to the Pablo Casals performance.
> 
> Again, thank you.


You're very welcome! I'm glad I could help.


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## Romantiker

Other than total adoration for him as a composer, I appreciate that he wrote some chamber masterpieces that are playable by the average amateur. As a clarinetist I am really thankful that he wrote the 3 Phantasie Stuecke, Op. 73 and the Maerchenerzahlungen Op. 132. I also find that his symphonies make a deeply personal statement to me.


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## hpowders

Folks who simply know Schumann from the symphonies don't know Schumann at all.
One must familiarize oneself with the piano pieces, the songs and the chamber music.


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## Blake

He is pretty great. I've had a burst of the romantics, and went straight to Schumann tonight. I don't know what it is, but he does seem like more of the intellectual in the romantic bunch. I previously thought differently, but the more I listen, the more it surfaces.


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## clavichorder

I am really really digging his 2nd symphony. In my opinion its his best symphony, though so underplayed. The scherzo and 3rd movement are probably my favorite two Schumann symphony movements.


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## Novelette

clavichorder said:


> I am really really digging his 2nd symphony. In my opinion its his best symphony, though so underplayed. The scherzo and 3rd movement are probably my favorite two Schumann symphony movements.


I've been going through some tremendous shifts in opinions of which of his symphonies I like the most. Lately, I've also been most enjoying his second symphony. I still don't fully understand or appreciate the first movement [though it has been growing on me], but the rest of the symphony is absolutely riveting. The scherzo is so fun--it's almost as though the climax of the whole movement is when it finally breaks free of the chains of the diminished seventh.

I know Schumann's symphonies have long been exposed to criticism of their very thick orchestration, and I'm certainly not immune from expressing this same opinion; but with familiarity, this characteristic seems to suit these works well. Or so say I.


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## Blake

Can't get much thicker than Brahms.


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## Blake

Bernstein discusses Schumann's orchestration:


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## Rhythm

Vesuvius said:


> Bernstein discusses Schumann's orchestration:


Vesuvius, Thank you for that three-part ^ Bernstein talk. I'm listening to the first one now.

This is an excerpt from Bernstein's introduction within the first five minutes or so of his talk in the first vid.


> *Bernstein* …That's why so many conductors have felt free to make so-called versions of the four Schumann symphonies. At one point, it almost became a conductor's duty to rearrange Schumann's orchestration so it would sound richer and fuller, and more like orchestration of a later day. Many of these same conductors have done the same with passages with Beethoven symphonies on the same grounds, although on a far slighter degree. One doesn't so easily tamper with the great god Beethoven. But, with poor ol' Schumann, everyone seems to have the license to tamper as he pleases. In fact, it's almost become traditional to do so.


I've wondered how many versions of Schumann's orchestrations exist. Perhaps, there are as many versions as there have been conductors.


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## Blake

Rhythm said:


> Vesuvius, Thank you for that three-part ^ Bernstein talk. I'm listening to the first one now.
> 
> This is an excerpt from Bernstein's introduction within the first five minutes or so of his talk in the first vid. I've wondered how many versions of Schumann's orchestrations exist. Perhaps, there are as many versions as there have been conductors.


Yea, I'm sure quite a lot. An idea I've picked up along the way that I tend to agree with - it's not that the orchestration is an issue, rather the problem lies with the understanding and performance of the works by musicians and conductors-. Because it sounds wonderful when it's played properly like it was written. Bernstein's cycle is a great example.


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## Novelette

Some years ago, I attended part of a concert of Beethoven's 8th Symphony.

The conductor, a ne'er-do-well, chose to rescore the whole symphony. As they began to play the opening movement, I was briskly walking out. Needless to say, a children's choir does not seem to be necessary in this symphony. What lyrics would one even script into place?

I appreciate creative re-orchestrations, but only if they are so declared before hand!! :scold:


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## Blake

This is one of my all time favorite quartets... His 3rd. The second half of the Scherzo at 11:50 blows me away... it's so deep in the groove I can't get out. Inquiring minds, start around 11:20, so you can see the crazy shift in dynamics.


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## Richannes Wrahms

He's got one of the best Requiems. Sorry Brahms, I find yours to be a bit on the bland side of your compositions.


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## Matzi

I love Schumann =)


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## clavichorder

I have warmed up more to the 3rd symphony. Especially the finale, which has so much life and sad exuberance. 

The finale to the 2nd of course, has revealed itself more. I think it will forever be a special piece to me, the 2nd symphony. I really love when the clarinet comes in in the finale, with the theme from the 3rd movement. That is some beautiful music!

In other things, I am finding that I am really picky about recordings with these symphonies. John Elliot Gardiner's for me, have been very sufficient and I like that I can trust him not to have made revisions to the orchestration and yet still make it sound as good as possible. He proves that there are no real flaws with the orchestration, in fact.


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## shangoyal

Kreisleriana and the 3rd symphony are masterpieces.


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## Vesteralen

I have really been enjoying reading the book *Robert Schumann - A Chorus of Voices* by John Tibbetts.

I've never read anything quite like it before. Mr. Tibbetts carried out interviews with many famous musicians and musicologists 
over a period of many years, mostly about Schumann and things related to Schumann's life and times. He has organized the book topically and presents the opinions and researches of his interviewees as they happen to touch on those topics.

The people interviewed range from the anti-Schumann (like Garrick Ohlsson) to the Schumann specialists. And, even the specialists are often greatly divided in their opinions and theories. It's fascinating. And, along the way, I've encountered some specific insights that are brand new to me.

Greatly recommended.


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## hpowders

My respect for Garrick Ohlsson just went up a notch. We think alike. :tiphat:


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Listening to his Cello concerto at the moment, performed by Jacqueline du Pré. It's brilliant. Not even sure if Dvorak's is a better concerto.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Been on a recent Schumann kick as of late. Just ordered a disc with Charles Rosen (yes, the guy who wrote The Classical Style) playing the Davidsbündlertänze. There are a lot of fresh ideas in his music; currently listening to his Toccata in C Major - the piece seems like what could result if Haydn, Chopin, Schubert and Beethoven sat down and wrote something together.


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## Mandryka

Vesteralen said:


> I have really been enjoying reading the book *Robert Schumann - A Chorus of Voices* by John Tibbetts.
> 
> I've never read anything quite like it before. Mr. Tibbetts carried out interviews with many famous musicians and musicologists
> over a period of many years, mostly about Schumann and things related to Schumann's life and times. He has organized the book topically and presents the opinions and researches of his interviewees as they happen to touch on those topics.
> 
> The people interviewed range from the anti-Schumann (like Garrick Ohlsson) to the Schumann specialists. And, even the specialists are often greatly divided in their opinions and theories. It's fascinating. And, along the way, I've encountered some specific insights that are brand new to me.
> 
> Greatly recommended.


Thanks for this. I bought the book and I'm very glad I did so.


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## Mandryka

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Been on a recent Schumann kick as of late. Just ordered a disc with Charles Rosen (yes, the guy who wrote The Classical Style) playing the Davidsbündlertänze. There are a lot of fresh ideas in his music; currently listening to his Toccata in C Major - the piece seems like what could result if Haydn, Chopin, Schubert and Beethoven sat down and wrote something together.


Rosen recorded this music several times - 1963, 1986, 1997. I like the 1986, which is on recording called "Revolutionary Masterpieces" issued by Nonsuch and by Globe. In my opinion, DBT is Schumann's greatest piece of music.


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## DavidA

Schumann was a great composer for the piano. His major works are among the best ever written. Every great pianist is tested but eh quality of his / her Schumann.
The great Schumann pianists include Richter, Argerich, And and Perahia. Of course, a whole lot I have missed out!


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## hpowders

Claudio Arrau......


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## Vaneyes

Lupu, universally so. And my particular cravings--Gavrilov, Demidenko, Berezovsky, Dalberto.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Mandryka said:


> Rosen recorded this music several times - 1963, 1986, 1997. I like the 1986, which is on recording called "Revolutionary Masterpieces" issued by Nonsuch and by Globe. In my opinion, DBT is Schumann's greatest piece of music.


wow, thanks for the input. My version seems to come from a 1995 disc with Rosen and Casadesus. From the samples, I noticed the pieces were very original but also accessible. Looking forward to hearing them. Rosen's playing also sounded excellent.


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## Mandryka

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> wow, thanks for the input. My version seems to come from a 1995 disc with Rosen and Casadesus. From the samples, I noticed the pieces were very original but also accessible. Looking forward to hearing them. Rosen's playing also sounded excellent.


Pollini is oustanding in it in a live recording from Edinburgh -- the DG one is not quite as good.

Another one I like in it is Kempff, in a live recital from him which used to be on youtube, from Besançon in 1963. The DG recording he made hasn't ever caught my imagination.

I'd be curious about what you think about Michael Brown's DBT here. I find myself appreciating this sort of emotionally understated performance more and more

http://boomboomsky.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/schumann-from-cleveland-intl-piano.html

I think Angela Hewitt is also very much worth hearing in it. at least if you share my taste - I've gone off Schumann played lyrically, mawkishly, romantically.

And there's also Franz Vorraber, who's tonally hard and totally distinctive in terms of articulation. A puzzzeling performance by a Schumann specialist -- I wonder if anyone has managed to make sense of what he does with the music.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

thanks for the recommendations, Mandryka! Will check these out .


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## DaveS

Here's an interesting article on NPR's website regarding Schumann's Violin Concerto. Discovered via a Ouija board. Really?

http://www.npr.org/2014/10/30/35987...ent=20141030&utm_campaign=classical&utm_term=


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## Vaneyes

Interest in Schumann violin and cello concerti spikes occasionally, which is fine, but I've found after listening to numerous accounts, that I can take them or leave them. They're lukewarm Schumann IMO.

I don't find the degrees of popularity or quality amongst his concerti disparaging. He's included in such company as Haydn and Dvorak. Not everyone can be a Koncerto King like Khachaturian.


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## hpowders

When I have the urge to listen to Schumann, it's to the solo piano works I go, such as Carnaval Fantasie in C, Symphonic Etudes, etc;


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## HaydnBearstheClock

hpowders said:


> When I have the urge to listen to Schumann, it's to the solo piano works I go, such as Carnaval Fantasie in C, Symphonic Etudes, etc;


From what I've heard in Schumann, he seems to be at his most experimental in the solo piano pieces.


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## Mandryka

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> From what I've heard in Schumann, he seems to be at his most experimental in the solo piano pieces.


One interesting piece which isn't for piano is Märchenerzählungen.


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## hpowders

Many a kid has lost a spelling bee on that word.


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## Vaneyes

hpowders said:


> Many a kid has lost a spelling bee on that word.


And prompted many gesundheits, I'd bet.


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## hpowders

Vaneyes said:


> And prompted many gesundheits, I'd bet.


So glad I wasn't born there. The words are too damn long!!

Doesn't anybody complain?


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## HaydnBearstheClock

hpowders said:


> So glad I wasn't born there. The words are too damn long!!
> 
> Doesn't anybody complain?


Nope . [15 chars]


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## hpowders

English words must looks so strange to a native German. The pithiness must be shocking!


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## Mandryka

The Märchenerzählungen here is very good thing to hear









I like the quartets too. In fact only last week I found myself surprised by how much I enjoyed the way Quarteto Italiano play op 41/1. Surprised because normally I'm not much of a fan of the Italianos, who seem to serious to me, at least in Beethoven and Mozart. But in this recording they caught the random moodswings really well - maybe it's an earlier line up thay the QI records I'd heard before.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Really liking his Davidsbündlertänze and the Carnaval - fresh, varied and dynamic pieces.


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## hreichgott

hpowders said:


> The words are too damn long!!


But you can say so much in one word!


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## Vaneyes

Mandryka said:


> The Märchenerzählungen here is very good thing to hear
> 
> View attachment 54751
> 
> 
> I like the quartets too. In fact only last week I found myself surprised by how much I enjoyed the way Quarteto Italiano play op 41/1. Surprised because normally I'm not much of a fan of the Italianos, who seem to serious to me, at least in Beethoven and Mozart. But in this recording they caught the random moodswings really well - maybe it's an earlier line up thay the QI records I'd heard before.


His Quartets are mahvellous. Hear Auryn Qt (Tacet) if you can.:tiphat:


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## hpowders

The lady on the album cover looks like she too would rather have a little more pithiness in the vocabulary, if you dig what I'm sayin'. Looks like migraine time.

No wonder Schumann went mad!


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## Vaneyes

A Bob Schumann vignette, some may like.:tiphat:


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Thanks for the link, Vaneyes, that Piano Quartet movement is excellent.


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## hpowders

I don't always like Herbert von Karajan, but in Schumann's magnificent Symphony No. 2, I find Karajan to be just about perfect.

Listen to his incredible reading of the great third movement-German Romanticism at its peak AND his performance of the final coda-nobody does the kettle drum any better than Karajan!!


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## Haydn man

Schumann has been something of a blind spot for me until the last few weeks
I have greatly enjoyed listening to the symphonies courtesy of John Eliot Gardiner. Reading through the posts on here I need to try the concerti next.
Any advice or recommendations gladly accepted


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## violadude

Haydn man said:


> Schumann has been something of a blind spot for me until the last few weeks
> I have greatly enjoyed listening to the symphonies courtesy of John Eliot Gardiner. Reading through the posts on here I need to try the concerti next.
> Any advice or recommendations gladly accepted


Sorry for dodging your request, but my advice would be to head for the solo piano works and chamber music. Those areas are where Schumann really shined, imo, not that the concertos aren't good too in their own right.


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## MoonlightSonata

That piano music... wow.


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## Haydn man

violadude said:


> Sorry for dodging your request, but my advice would be to head for the solo piano works and chamber music. Those areas are where Schumann really shined, imo, not that the concertos aren't good too in their own right.


No apology required I shall explore the solo piano works also


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Haydn man said:


> No apology required I shall explore the solo piano works also


I would also recommend the solo piano work - very original, experimental, lyrical and dynamic music. The Kreisleriana, Davidsbündlertänze and Kinderszenen are great.


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## Vaneyes

hpowders said:


> I don't always like Herbert von Karajan, but in Schumann's magnificent Symphony No. 2, I find Karajan to be just about perfect.
> 
> Listen to his incredible reading of the great third movement-German Romanticism at its peak AND his performance of the final coda-nobody does the kettle drum any better than Karajan!!


HvK's Schumann No. 1 (rec.1971) is no slouch, and can come with his magnificent Brahms 1 (rec.1963). Whatta doublebanger!


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## Pimlicopiano

I always remember my O-level music exam when there was a piece of unseen music played which you had to analyse and guess the composer. At the time I didn't know it, but it was the "Chopin" movement of Carnaval, and I remember writing an answer in which I plumped for Chopin as the composer. I got an A. For many years I was steered to Chopin by piano teachers and simply by having most of the sheet music at home. I'd only tackled one piece of Schumann, good old Traumerei. It wasn't until much later that I discovered the hidden delights in the piano music, the songs and chamber music, aside from the symphonic works and concerti. I now love discovering the beautiful Schumann moments. I'm currently working on the Fantasie, but the beast of the section section is yet to be tackled properly.


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## AnotherSpin

I think Schumann spoils me too much, I became quite unbalanced. Still, some pieces are just too beautiful. Piano Quartet and Piano Quintet... some times I woke up in the midst of the night and this music plays in my mind.


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## scratchgolf

Does anyone have experience with or an opinion on Schumann's Masterworks Set?

http://www.amazon.com/Schumann-Mast...33080986&sr=8-16&keywords=robert+schumann+box

I'm planning to dedicate most of my time to the lesser known works of Schumann, Brahms, Mendelssohn, and Schubert. I have pretty extensive collections from all but Schumann and I'm considering pulling the trigger on this massive set. Any thoughts would be appreciated.


----------



## Vesteralen

*Opus One - ABEGG Variations*

I did this blog a long time ago. I wanted to start with Opus 1 on this thread, but since I already did the research and work on this piece, I decided to just pretty much copy it with minor alterations instead of making a whole new post. Please pardon the heavy-handed analysis (I promise not to do that in future - I'll just stick with my reactions):

Schumann wrote to his mother shortly after he turned 21 years of age in rather cryptic terms indicating that his Opus 1 was about to be published. He had been working on this theme and variations for some time after giving up law school to study piano with Wieck.

He claimed to base the theme of this piece on the name of a dancing partner, Countess Pauline von Abegg (whose exact existence as such is questionable). At any rate the notes A - B flat - E - G - G do indeed make up the basis of this piece and are set out in the theme portion in a deceptively simple-sounding manner.

I thought I'd just pass on an interesting fact I learned from the introduction to the volume of Schumann's Piano Music in score that I borrowed from my library. It seems that the A-B-E-G-G- Variations were originally planned to be a virtuoso piece for piano and orchestra with a thematically unrelated introduction.

The intro in the book also points out that, though it's easy to assume by his first twenty or so published pieces that Schumann at this stage in his life and career was only interested in writing for piano solo, his desk at the time of his Op 1 publication contained an unpublished vocal piece, a quartet, a concerto, and even a symphony.

Anyway, back to the piece - Study of the score shows the left hand playing a steady stream of eighth-note chords while the right hand plays octaves of the A-B-E-G-G phrase in four diminished steps (first notes A - G sharp - F sharp - E) repeated twice; then in reverse (G - G - E - B flat - A) ; then, in augmentation (first notes G - A - C - D) repeated twice, followed by a final F chord.

The first variation starts out with the overall direction of "energico" at the same time that the right hand is instructed to play "legato". Aurally, the theme is pretty apparent as the trunk of the tree from which this branch shoots off, though it isn't until measure nine that we actually hear the theme in the left hand as the right hand is going a mile a minute with sixteenth notes.

Certain phrases, such as those found at measures thirteen to sixteen do seem to bear out the analysis in the BBC Guide that this early work shows the influence of "note-spinning" composers like Moscheles, who formed a large part of Schumann's musical education at this point. But, the syncopation of the final four measures of the piece (played once and repeated later) seem like quintessential Schumann to me.

The second variation is pretty short and consists mostly of the left hand playing single note twists on the theme with the right hand offering a steady rhythmic accompaniment.

The third variation is, to me, the most interesting one. There is a kind of Chopinesque series of what I can only describe, accurately or not, as sixteenth-note triplets in runs going on with the right hand, while the left hand works the thematic material around in chords. There's a fun dance-like momentum to this variation that makes it the highlight of the piece for me.

Things slow down a bit with the next variation, with sustained chords in the left hand and a lot of tremelo effects in the right. Very ethereal and pretty.

The finale sounds like a finale and doesn't disappoint. This is, fittingly, the most Schumannesque of the sections and the budding genius stamps his mold on the piece unmistakably from the bravura middle section till the quiet and restrained final notes.

I've heard this piece many times over the last forty years or so, but I just recently listened to it as performed on a fortepiano. Things, of necessity, have to slow down just a bit when played on this instrument, but the clarity of the notes as heard has its own special charm.

Any other thoughts on this piece?


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## Vaneyes

scratchgolf said:


> Does anyone have experience with or an opinion on Schumann's Masterworks Set?
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Schumann-Mast...33080986&sr=8-16&keywords=robert+schumann+box
> 
> I'm planning to dedicate most of my time to the lesser known works of Schumann, Brahms, Mendelssohn, and Schubert. I have pretty extensive collections from all but Schumann and I'm considering pulling the trigger on this massive set. Any thoughts would be appreciated.


Did you buy it? Personally, I like the Pollini, and Kremer & Argerich inclusions, but there's so much missing, maybe due to conflict with other DG box sets.:tiphat:


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## Vesteralen

Zhang Zuo (Zee Zee) performs the ABEGG Variations (Zee Zee, is that supposed to be a female equivalent of Lang Lang?)

Anyway, I don't like to attach You Tube videos that are not put out by either the performer or the producer and this one seems to fit the bill.

It's actually a very good performance, though the performer's facial expressions might seem a bit too intensely "romantic" for some. Viewer discretion advised.


----------



## CDs

Outside of Schumann's symphonies, solo piano works and piano concerto is there anything of his worth listening too? I ask because I like his symphonies and would like to explore his music further but am not a big fan of solo piano. Thanks!


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## Tchaikov6

CDs said:


> Outside of Schumann's symphonies, solo piano works and piano concerto is there anything of his worth listening too? I ask because I like his symphonies and would like to explore his music further but am not a big fan of solo piano. Thanks!


A couple pieces:

*Dichertliebe*: Not sure if you are into vocal music, but this is a great song cycle. For recordings, try this one linked here- https://www.amazon.co.uk/Schumann-Dichterliebe-Op-48-Gedichte-Lieder/dp/B00004SC5X/ref=sr_1_1 s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1337682673&sr=1-1

*Piano-Quintet*: Beautiful piece of chamber music, among one of my favorite piano quintets. My favorite recording is this one-
https://www.amazon.com/Schumann-Piano-Quintet-Dvorák-No-2/dp/B008V4H5R8

*Cello Concerto*: A great cello concerto, though not at the heights of Dvorak and Elgar. Favorite performance-

https://www.amazon.com/Cello-Concer...ds=Raphael+Wallfisch++SChumann+Cello+Concerto

Those are my favorite three works outside of solo piano and symphonies.


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## Janspe

Also, the sonatas for piano and violin, the piano quartet and his violin concerto. The piano trios are cool as well!


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## Pugg

CDs said:


> Outside of Schumann's symphonies, solo piano works and piano concerto is there anything of his worth listening too? I ask because I like his symphonies and would like to explore his music further but am not a big fan of solo piano. Thanks!


His lieder/ songs ( if you like hearing singing).


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## Vaneyes

CDs said:


> *Outside of Schumann's symphonies, solo piano works and piano concerto is there anything of his worth listening too? *I ask because I like his symphonies and would like to explore his music further but am not a big fan of solo piano. Thanks!


Piano Quintet, Piano Quartet w. Pressler/ESQ (DG); String Quartets w.Auryn Qt.(Tacet); Piano Trios w. Gringolts/Kouzov/Laul (Onyx); Cello & Piano works w. Schiff & Oppitz (Philips); Violin Sonatas w. Kremer & Argerich (DG).:tiphat:


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## CDs

I will look into the suggestions this weekend. Thanks!


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## hpowders

CDs said:


> Outside of Schumann's symphonies, solo piano works and piano concerto is there anything of his worth listening too? I ask because I like his symphonies and would like to explore his music further but am not a big fan of solo piano. Thanks!


The song cycle for female voice and piano, Frauenliebe und leben, a cycle of a woman's life, is one of Schumann's greatest compositions.


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## millionrainbows

Be sure to hear the Manfred Overture.


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## Lenny

I'll add cello concerto (op. 129) and Fantasy for violin and orchestra (op. 131).


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## Vaneyes

Lenny said:


> I'll add cello concerto (op. 129) and Fantasy for violin and orchestra (op. 131).


Yes indeed. After some unimpressive recordings of each, I finally hit paydirt, with Schiff/Haitink (Philips, rec. 1988), and Irnberger/Sieghart (Gramola, rec. 2007).:tiphat:


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## Eusebius12

This post is complete nonsense. Both these works are hardly typical. The op.88 set is hardly one of Schumann's most popular or important works. And it isn't as if the piano trio us overplayed either. The 88 set clearly has an atmosphere of 'fairy tales', which places it alongside Schumann's other fairy tales sets. This implies a certain idiom which you cannot appreciate. The last movement of the piano trio clearly has a certain 'soiree' atmosphere, and is much more relaxed than the rest of the work, and the whole work itself is a lighter counterpart (although with quite dense contrapuntal moments) of the brooding and tragic no.1. Just as Brahms 2nd trio is a lighter counterpart of no.1. I embrace Schumann's music because it can cover a kaleidoscope of moods and styles, the limitations and stunting are all with you.


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## Eusebius12

I can't seem to edit that post, but it doesn't make sense unless I point out that it was in reply to Robert Schumann

It still might not make sense 
That's what you get for replying to old posts. It took me a few days actually to read all the subsequent posts in the thread...


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## BiscuityBoyle

The centrality of the piano for Schumann cannot be overstated. At heart, Schumann was as piano-centric a composer as Chopin (and as miniature-oriented), it's just that he wanted to establish himself as a "proper," respectable German composer who writes in all the large-scale, important genres.

Anderszewski articulates it very touchingly here:


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## Eusebius12

Robert Schumann

Yes, no.


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## Larkenfield

Eusebius12 said:


> I can't seem to edit that post, but it doesn't make sense unless I point out that it was in reply to Robert Schumann
> 
> It still might not make sense
> That's what you get for replying to old posts. It took me a few days actually to read all the subsequent posts in the thread...


Eusebius, if you don't mind a suggestion... and apologies if you're already aware of this: Use the *Reply With Quote* function when responding to someone's post, no matter how old the post, and readers will always know which post you're referring to, otherwise they may not know. I'm sure they'll be interested in one of your spirited replies... In other words, don't use the Reply to Thread box at the very bottom of the page unless you're posting something that's not specifically connected to someone's post. The Reply With Quote option will be at the bottom of any post you're wanting to specifically reply to. I hope this helps. Give 'em hell!  PS. You only have so many hours (I forget how many but it's usually enough) to edit your post once it's posted, but you'll usually have enough time the same day to come back and edit it if you discover an error. After that, you probably won't be able to edit it until hell freezes over. Hope this helps!


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## Eusebius12

Larkenfield said:


> Eusebius, if you don't mind a suggestion... and apologies if you're already aware of this: Use the *Reply With Quote* function when responding to someone's post, no matter how old the post, and readers will always know which post you're referring to, otherwise they may not know. I'm sure they'll be interested in one of your spirited replies... In other words, don't use the Reply to Thread box at the very bottom of the page unless you're posting something that's not specifically connected to someone's post. The Reply With Quote option will be at the bottom of any post you're wanting to specifically reply to. I hope this helps. Give 'em hell!  PS. You only have so many hours (I forget how many but it's usually enough) to edit your post once it's posted, but you'll usually have enough time the same day to come back and edit it if you discover an error. After that, you probably won't be able to edit it until hell freezes over. Hope this helps!


Haha thank you. I do remember most of this, but I was on a very long hiatus from this site so I had forgotten a few things. Anyway thanks for the tips and encouragement  (took me a while to find this reply also)


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## Stavrogin

I apologize for a question that is very likely going to sound naive.
But I do not have musical training, and I cannot find mentions to this on the web.

Is there a connection between the slow movement themes in the Cello Concerto and in the Piano Quartet?
To my ears it is quite clear, but I would like to read about it.
Is it a sheer kind of self-quotation that no one really cares about?
Or is it something more?
Or is something less i.e. I hear it but it does not really exist and no one ever talked about it?

Thanks in advance.


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## flamencosketches

been listening to Schumann's Dichterliebe lately. Great song cycle! Probably my favorite of those few I've heard, by any composer. Definitely opened my eyes to the greatness of this composer who I guess I had previously thought of as a second rate Schubert even down to sharing a budget brand version of the older composer's name :lol: couldn't be further from the truth... Schumann definitely had a voice of his own. I see his music as kind of a bridge from the early romantic through to Brahms, Tchaikovsky, etc. 

My girlfriend is a great pianist and does not think highly of his solo piano work at all, in fact told me none of it is worth checking out. I like some of what I've heard, the Op.17 C major fantasy, some of Carnaval, etc., some of it I find less impressive. Is there some amazing solo piano work of his that I have yet to hear? From what I understand he wrote exclusively for solo piano in his earlier years and had been studying to become a great touring virtuoso before suffering some kind of injury that prevented such a career path. 

I like what I've heard of his symphonies too. I understand they are not well regarded by some, but I've also heard that a lot of that comes from poor performances. I like those by George Szell and the Cleveland Orchestra, but then I like just about anything they play.


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## flamencosketches

Stavrogin said:


> I apologize for a question that is very likely going to sound naive.
> But I do not have musical training, and I cannot find mentions to this on the web.
> 
> Is there a connection between the slow movement themes in the Cello Concerto and in the Piano Quartet?
> To my ears it is quite clear, but I would like to read about it.
> Is it a sheer kind of self-quotation that no one really cares about?
> Or is it something more?
> Or is something less i.e. I hear it but it does not really exist and no one ever talked about it?
> 
> Thanks in advance.


Sorry for the double post, but great avatar! I love Godspeed, they were a big part of me originally becoming interested in classical music.

Unfortunately I lack both the theoretical knowledge and familiarity with those two pieces you mentioned to answer your question. I need to get a hold of that piano quartet though, I've heard great things.






The whole cycle is gorgeous, but especially the first song transports me to another dimension. RIP to Fritz Wunderlich


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> Is there some amazing solo piano work of his that I have yet to hear


The Op 11 sonata; Davidsbundlertanze; Kreisleriana, Fantasiestucke, Humoreske; Noveletten, Symphonic Etudes.


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## Bwv 1080

Charles Rosen said something to the effect that Schumann was the first composer to digest and move past Beethoven. For example, Schubert was a contemporary, Chopin had very little exposure to his music. 

Also took me some time to realize that everything I like about Brahms came from Schumann


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## jenspen

I love playing Schumann. When somebody in the (mostly amateur) little group of pianist friends I belong to plays something short that is teasing, romantic and delightful I so often discover that it's another of Schumann's pieces - they are so distinctive, so melodic, and sometimes otherworldly. Yes, he had "moved past" Beethoven.

I don't know his larger works well enough to have a worthwhile opinion of them.

I think I have listened to every Schumann song. Those he composed before his decline seem to my ear to have a freshness and inventiveness that is also distinctive. I can't stomach Frauenliebe und leben (I'm not proud of that, I think it's just a female reaction) but there are dozens and dozens of great songs. Dichterliebe and Liederkreis Op 39 are intensely interesting and lyrical cycles and the most obvious songs to recommend. They are full of melody, high emotion and drama. The piano has equal importance with the voice.

A simple, haunting song from Liederkreis Op 39:


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## flamencosketches

I'm listening to the Kinderszenen, Wilhelm Kempff playing. Definitely some very beautiful little pieces. Some are indeed evocative of childhood. 

So far, after a week or so of listening to his work more critically, I definitely think Schumann is a better composer than I'd previously given him credit for.


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## chu42

Currently practicing Schumann's Toccata and it's so archaic in musical language but modern in it's rhythmic ideas. Very intriguing (and difficult!).


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> I'm listening to the Kinderszenen, Wilhelm Kempff playing. Definitely some very beautiful little pieces. Some are indeed evocative of childhood.
> 
> So far, after a week or so of listening to his work more critically, I definitely think Schumann is a better composer than I'd previously given him credit for.


Here's an antique Kinderszenen worth checking out


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## flamencosketches

Worthy indeed, good lookin out. She sounds great. I'm a novice to the piano but I'd like to try and learn some of these; they sound easier than some of his other works (the Toccata for example as mentioned above which sounds impossible to my ears). I'd have to learn it myself though, my teacher, my girlfriend, as I'd mentioned is not big on Schumann.

I have also listened to a few of the other pieces you'd mentioned. The Fantasiestücke, Symphonic Etudes, and a bit of Kreisleriana. Very good stuff indeed. I love that he writes collections of tangentially related small pieces, it's an interesting format that suits his style well. Almost like song cycles for solo piano.


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> Worthy indeed, good lookin out. She sounds great. I'm a novice to the piano but I'd like to try and learn some of these; they sound easier than some of his other works (the Toccata for example as mentioned above which sounds impossible to my ears). I'd have to learn it myself though, my teacher, my girlfriend, as I'd mentioned is not big on Schumann.
> 
> I have also listened to a few of the other pieces you'd mentioned. The Fantasiestücke, Symphonic Etudes, and a bit of Kreisleriana. Very good stuff indeed. I love that he writes collections of tangentially related small pieces, it's an interesting format that suits his style well. Almost like song cycles for solo piano.


I think there's quite a debate about whether some of these things are "tangentially related small pieces" or whether they are in some ways cyclic, Kreisleriana seems to me substantial single piece, as does Davidsbundlertanze and the etudes are a set of variations really.


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## 89Koechel

flamenco - ("... symphonies … like those by … Szell … Cleveland …") - Yes, it would still be difficult, even these days, to find-BETTER than those you mentioned. Szell/Cleveland also recorded the excellent "Manfred Overture", op. 115, to similar effect. Well, if the solo piano compositions aren't fulfilling, enough … maybe try the two Konzertstucks, opus 92 and opus 134 (Introductions and Allegro, or Appassionato, etc., for piano and Orchestra). These are unjustly-forgotten works, but there was a wonderful recording, of both, with the eminent pianist - Rudolf Serkin - and a contemporaneous (to Szell) Orchestra … the Philadelphia, w/Ormandy.


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## 89Koechel

flamenco - Also, for what it's worth here're some quotes from "Nineteenth Century Romanticism in Music"/Rey Longyear. … "In Schumann's earlier piano works the dominant idea is that of the masked ball, wherein certain characters, portrayed in short epigrammatic character pieces, flit back and forth,; the earliest example is Papillons, based on the masked ball at the end of Jean Paul Richter's novel Flegeljahre, which also contains the characters Walt and Vult, models for Florestan and Eusebius. Carnaval is another masked ball in which Clara Wieck (Chiarina), Schumann's temporary fiancée Ernestine von Fricken (Estrella), Chopin, Paganini, and the figures of the Italian commedia dell'arte appear in waltzes (influenced by Schubert's) and promenades; at the end Schumann's 'League of David', his musical colleagues and their ancestors like J. S. Bach, Beethoven and Weber, sally forth against the 'Philistines', the purveyors of empty, virtuoso piano music and the Classic epigonoi who, in Schumann's words, 'wrote music by the yard'. The Davidsbundler Dances, later works despite an earlier opus number than Carnaval's, are the culmination of the masked ball idea." Well, that gives one a good CLUE to the complex origins of some of Schumann's piano music, esp. the early works ….. Also, Longyear writes …. "His greatest piano works are the sets of large pieces, especially the Symphonic Etudes, Kreisleriana, the Novelletten, the Faschingsschank aus Wien, and the Fantasie in C major." These are one man's opinions, but maybe they illuminate the inner core of the inspirations and workings, of Schumann's great piano outputs.


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## flamencosketches

is Dichterliebe the greatest romantic song cycle ever written? it's certainly become my favorite very quickly.


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## flamencosketches

Been enjoying Claudio Arrau's Schumann lately, as well as Martha Argerich, Sviatoslav Richter, and Angela Hewitt. Happy belated birthday to the composer. :cheers:


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## flamencosketches

Perhaps Itullian will chime in to this thread, so I can ask him who made the best cycle of Schumann's symphonies.


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## Larkenfield

Wonderful performances, good recording, considered definitive by many:


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## flamencosketches

Ah, Dresden and Sawallisch. This conductor and orchestra was my introduction to Schubert, who became one of my favorites. I'll give this a listen in the morning. 

I listened to Bernstein with Vienna performing the 1st earlier and liked it. Enjoying a bit of a Bernstein kick lately. Never cared for him up until a couple months ago.


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## starthrower

I picked up this set a few years ago. Includes the Sawallisch symphony cycle, the concertos, and a few other pieces.


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## Josquin13

Here's another vote for Wolfgang Sawallisch and the Staatskapelle Dresden, an orchestra that historically was conducted by Schumann and premiered works by him: 



. By the way, the set was remastered when the Japanese hybrid SACDs came out, so I'd try to buy the most recent release, or better yet buy the Japan hybrid SACD set, if you afford it, as you'll want the best sound quality that you can get for this set, IMO (as not all of the earlier EMI issues were optimal).

I'd also recommend Rafael Kubelik on either DG, with the Berlin Philharmonic, or CBS/Sony with the Bavarian RSO. The latter cycle has the better sound quality:














On period instruments, Gardiner's cycle is exceptional:





Finally, there's a highly regarded 1953 Schumann 4th Symphony from conductor Wilhelm Fürtwangler & the Berlin Philharmonic: 




My two cents.


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## flamencosketches

Thanks for that, I think y'all have made my choice for me  The set can be had new for under $10 too. Going to check out Kubelik's a bit before I pull the trigger. 

Has no one heard Bernstein with Vienna? I know his Vienna recordings are seen by some as lesser, and held in extremely high regard by some others.


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## Guest

I've been a big fan of Schumann for a long time, and have collected quite a few symphony sets based largely of recommendations I've picked up along the way. Among the best in my view are (in no particular order):

1. Certainly, the Wolfgang Sawallisch/Staatskapelle Dresden set is excellent.

2. There's a more recent set by the Staatskapelle Dresden conducted by Christian Thielemann. This set works out at slightly longer than the Sawallish version. I acquired it because I spotted it recently as the latest recommended set.

3. David Zinman/Zurich Tonhalle Orchestra.

4. Daniel Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin.

5. John Eliot Gardiner/Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique.

6. Giuseppe Sinopoli/Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra​
From the above, for the best of the individual symphonies, I'd go for a cocktail: No 1 (Zinman); No 2 (Gardiner); No 3 (Gardiner); No 4 (Barenboim).

As a set, I guess I like the John Eliot Gardiner/Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique best of all, because it's a period instrument orchestra, and conducted by one of my favourites. I like the sound of this orchestra, and I think that Gardiner does an especially good job getting round the balance problems that used to be quite a common critcism of Schumann's orchestration. There's nothing "mushy" about any of it.


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## millionrainbows

I took a look at the Gardiner version, and was pleased to see that it includes the original 1841 version of the 4th in D minor. I have the Gardiner Beethoven, and the sound is exquisite, especially the strings. I guess it's the gut strings, but it sounds so smooth, not "icy." I think this will be on my "to get" list.


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## Guest

flamencosketches said:


> Ah, Dresden and Sawallisch. This conductor and orchestra was my introduction to Schubert, who became one of my favorites. I'll give this a listen in the morning.
> 
> I listened to Bernstein with Vienna performing the 1st earlier and liked it. Enjoying a bit of a Bernstein kick lately. Never cared for him up until a couple months ago.


I have collected lots of Bernstein. It goes without saying he was an excellent conductor. I like best of all his many recordings with the VPO, and I especially like his Mahler 5. Another great recording of his is Zimerman/VPO performing Brahms PC2. It stands out from the crowd.

For Schubert, whatever you do avoid Karajan. He makes Schubert sound like Beethoven, and that will never do. Again, as with Schumann, I generally prefer period bands. For the "Unfinished" Symphony, Roger Norrington/London Classical Players is a fine performance. For the "Great" C Major, the sheer elegance and drive of Colin Davis/Staatskapelle Dresden is probably my favourite version.


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## Guest

flamencosketches said:


> been listening to Schumann's Dichterliebe lately. Great song cycle! Probably my favorite of those few I've heard, by any composer.


Yes it's a very good work, and yet another reason to love Schumann. My favourite versions are by Fritz Wunderlich/Hubert Giesen, and Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau/Alfred Brendel. I think that these are the two tenors best suited for song cycle/lieder works. The piano accompaniment for both is outstanding.

I could drone on all about Schumann all day, but I'll keep it short. Many years ago I decided to become a "completist" in regard to Schumann's output. There's hardly anything he wrote that isn't seriously worth checking out. In my estimation, he was the best of the early romantics (post Schubert, of course), because he wrote first class material in all/most genres, it is refreshingly individualistic in style, and much of it so heart-warming.

If you haven't already done so, do try his Violin Concerto (Woo 23). It's one of last works, and was suppressed for very many years because Clara and Brahms thought it was borderline, and was lucky to have escaped the chop altogether. It's a brilliant work in my opinion, but it may need a few listens before it's appreciated, as it's quite different from all other romantic VCs.


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## flamencosketches

Noted, I will check the VC. I haven't heard terribly many of his works.

Yes I love the Wunderlich/Giesen Dichterliebe. It is my favorite recording of any Lieder. I'll have to check Brendel with Dietrich as well.

As for Schubert symphonies, I'm currently working through Blomstedt/Dresden which I really like. I don't like Karajan's Schubert either, but I do like Kleiber's. He doesn't quite paint a picture of Schubert as Beethoven, but he comes close. He takes it quite aggressively. It works, though, and his Unfinished is amazing.

Back to Schumann. I listened to S. Richter's incredible C major fantasy this morning. So good.

Has anyone heard the Matthias Goerne/Leif Ove Andsnes Liederkreis? Not bad at all.


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> Noted, I will check the VC. I haven't heard terribly many of his works.
> 
> Yes I love the Wunderlich/Giesen Dichterliebe. It is my favorite recording of any Lieder. I'll have to check Brendel with Dietrich as well.
> 
> As for Schubert symphonies, I'm currently working through Blomstedt/Dresden which I really like. I don't like Karajan's Schubert either, but I do like Kleiber's. He doesn't quite paint a picture of Schubert as Beethoven, but he comes close. He takes it quite aggressively. It works, though, and his Unfinished is amazing.
> 
> Back to Schumann. I listened to S. Richter's incredible C major fantasy this morning. So good.
> 
> Has anyone heard the Matthias Goerne/Leif Ove Andsnes Liederkreis? Not bad at all.


Refined, cultivated, self confident singing with a beautiful polished tone. _Bildungsbürgertum_. I've seen him a couple of times.


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## Guest

flamencosketches said:


> Back to Schumann. I listened to S. Richter's incredible C major fantasy this morning. So good.
> 
> Has anyone heard the Matthias Goerne/Leif Ove Andsnes Liederkreis? Not bad at all.


A lot of people rate Richter very highly but he's never been among my favourites. I find many of his recordings are "live" ones, with occasional background noise which I detest. I find he's also too slow, but that's a matter of taste. I don't think that Richter is one of the standard, well-known interpretors of Schumann. He's better known for the likes of Rach and Schubert, but even here I prefer others.

For Op 17 Fantasie, I have several recordings. It's possibly Schumann's most well-known and sentimental piano work. I can't think of anything similar by any other composer. I think that the best of those I have is by Pollini, who is a really brilliant, top-class pianist. I also like this work played by a lesser well-known pianist, Catherine Collard. She put a lot of colour and emotion into it, and she was also very accomplished, but not at the same level as Pollini. The version by Catherine Collard seems to be is out of stock these days, which is unfortunate since I'd like to acquire a better copy of it. There are however other recordings by her of other pieces.

All of the other piano solo works of Schumann, i,e. Ops 1-28 plus several later ones like Op 82 Waldszenen and Op 99 Bunte Blate, are essential works to acquire.

Another top rated pianist for Schumann is Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli, one of the best ever pianists. Try for example his Op 26 Faschingschwank Aus Wien. Martha Argerich is also a well-known, very good interpretator of Schumann, especially in her chamber work partnerings with other artists.

There's a very decent almost complete set of piano works of Schumann in a box set by Vladimir Ashkenazy that's worth checking out. I bought it many years ago. Technically Ashkenazy is very good, and the sound quality on those CDs is superb. It's just that for some pieces there are perhaps somewhat better versions from the point of view of aesthetics, but they're not hugely significant differences.

For Op 24 Liederkreis, my two favourite versions are (1) Ian Bostridge (tenor), Julius Drake (piano), and (2) Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau (tenor), Christoph Eschenbach (piano).

I haven't heard the version you have but it should be very good. If, like me, you decide to try out some more versions at a later time, you might try the first of those above, as I think it has a slight edge over (2)


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## Merl

Loads of Schumann symphony cycle recommendations in the thread linked below, Flamencosketches. As far as Bernstein is concerned, although I'm not a fan of some of his later VPO recordimgs his VPO Schumann set is very impressive. Loads of great cycles out there (Ive bought two in the last week) but I'm a Sawallisch fan in Schumann. An utterly magical cycle. You can usually pick up a very good Schumann cycle for less than £5 pre-owned. My last 3 sets have cost me £6 in total and all are excellent. For a super cheap but very good starter set for less than £2 (NEW!) go on ebay and grab Semkow's 70s St Louis cycle. If you have slightly bigger funds (but you won't need that much) then Sawallisch and Dohnanyi are great, as are Levine (both), Harnoncourt, Kubelik , Bernstein, Tilson Thomas, etc. I like Zinman and Ticciati's cycles a lot too but Itullian isn't a fan of lighter Schumann..... Isn't that right Itullian?

Schumann's symphonies


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## Mandryka

Partita said:


> For Op 17 Fantasie, . . . I can't think of anything similar by any other composer.


The big Liszt sonata and Schubert's Wanderer Fantasy.


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## Guest

Mandryka said:


> The big Liszt sonata and Schubert's Wanderer Fantasy.


Much as I like the works you mention, for me they're not similar in terms of the pathos and emotional impact as Schumann's Op 17, which is the feature I was referring to.


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## flamencosketches

Mandryka said:


> The big Liszt sonata and Schubert's Wanderer Fantasy.


I would agree that these three works are birds of a feather. Perhaps Schumann's is the most pathétique of the three.

@Partita, re: Richter, I am still coming to terms with a lot of his music. For example, I don't like any of his Schubert recorded after the 1950s. He got way too painfully slow with it. And he's far from a definitive Schubert interpreter. He is to Schubert what Glenn Gould is to Bach; not the only performer I'd want to be left with (coming from a Gould fan). But have you heard his Schumann Fantasy? I can't possibly picture a better recording, though I also have Argerich and hers is good too. I see that you agree with me that Martha is pretty rightly acclaimed as a Schumann interpreter. I listen to her Kinderszenen and Kreisleriana a lot. I really need to get a recording of hers playing Schumann's concerto. I will probably end up getting another big box set of hers with a lot of concertos. I have the DG solo recordings box of hers and love it.

Schumann is one hell of a composer. His piano music is some of the best ever. He is no lesser of a piano composer than Liszt, Chopin, or Beethoven.


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## Mandryka

This is the last piece of Schumann I enjoyed






Inon Barnatan, piano
Julian Rachlin, viool
Torleif Thedéen, cello

The G minor trio is magnificent. Always in the last three movements but the first sometimes seems to me a bit heavy and romantic, which I dislike: this performance make it sound light and elegant.

The last movement reminded me of some of the more crazy waltzes in Papillons. Dances, partitas of dances, is a really central thing in Schumann, this in a works where the sonata is dominant. You see how he worked in countercurrent.

Apart from that I've been listening to the recordings of the last two op 41 quartets that The New Music Quartet made, with great pleasure.


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## Larkenfield

Wonderful to hear the Trio in G. Lovely performance. All three were really pouring it on in the 1st.  There were some dissonances of interest that I've never heard Schumann use before. Great sounding recording (especially through my favorite amp and headphones). Warm, alive and wonderful, the entire experience. Listen to the way Schumann used his themes among them. It's a miracle that any composer could write something as skillful and marvelous as this. His good friend Brahms had a lot to live up to. Tender and sensitive slow movement. Thanks to Mandryka for posting this. Members of the Trio seemed ideally matched. Loved the uplifting joy in the final movement. Schumann just shot up a few more points on my personal list of greats. Bravo to everyone, including myself for taking the time to hear this.


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## flamencosketches

I forget if I brought this up already, but Claudio Arrau's Schumann recordings are just beautiful.










I would highly recommend this CD to any Schumann fan. It can be had for very cheap used.


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## flamencosketches

Is anyone familiar with this 6CD set on EMI?










Featuring Sviatoslav Richter, Jean-Philippe Collard, Christian Zacharias, Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli, Leif Ove Andsnes, Yuri Egorov, Jonathan Biss, and a few more I have not heard of. Talk about a star-studded cast.

Anyway, I have the opportunity to get it for $7, should I go for it? Had I not JUST gotten the Murray Perahia plays Schumann 6CD set, I would have pulled the trigger already. What a steal... any feedback?

I just got done listening to the Spring symphony from Leonard Bernstein's Schumann symphonies cycle with Vienna. Really liked it, but found it a little derivative of Beethoven and Schubert. Don't know if anyone is with me on that, but I will continue listening to these and see if my opinion changes (I'm sure it will).

Schumann has gone from being a composer I didn't care about much at all to a favorite, very quickly. He had such an original voice, and his music really hits me on a primal level. Possibly no lesser than Chopin or Beethoven as a piano composer, although I will concede that his piano music may be less idiomatic than that of those two, due to the fact that he stopped playing piano seriously at a pretty young age. But then there's much more than the piano music. The next step, I think, is get more into the chamber music. I've heard and really enjoyed his A major string quartet.

Many thanks to a few users here for pointing me in the right direction with his music :cheers:


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> Is anyone familiar with this 6CD set on EMI?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Featuring Sviatoslav Richter, Jean-Philippe Collard, Christian Zacharias, Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli, Leif Ove Andsnes, Yuri Egorov, Jonathan Biss, and a few more I have not heard of. Talk about a star-studded cast.
> 
> Anyway, I have the opportunity to get it for $7, should I go for it? Had I not JUST gotten the Murray Perahia plays Schumann 6CD set, I would have pulled the trigger already. What a steal... any feedback?
> 
> I just got done listening to the Spring symphony from Leonard Bernstein's Schumann symphonies cycle with Vienna. Really liked it, but found it a little derivative of Beethoven and Schubert. Don't know if anyone is with me on that, but I will continue listening to these and see if my opinion changes (I'm sure it will).
> 
> Schumann has gone from being a composer I didn't care about much at all to a favorite, very quickly. He had such an original voice, and his music really hits me on a primal level. Possibly no lesser than Chopin or Beethoven as a piano composer, although I will concede that his piano music may be less idiomatic than that of those two, due to the fact that he stopped playing piano seriously at a pretty young age. But then there's much more than the piano music. The next step, I think, is get more into the chamber music. I've heard and really enjoyed his A major string quartet.
> 
> Many thanks to a few users here for pointing me in the right direction with his music :cheers:


One of the pianists in that box is interesting - Alexander Lonquich. He released a tremendous Schumann and Holliger CD on ECM.

Holliger is a composer whose very keen on Schumann and he's written some very fine pieces which are inspired by Schumann's chamber music - a piece called Romancendres for example.


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## Guest

flamencosketches said:


> Many thanks to a few users here for pointing me in the right direction with his music


I can easily understand how someone can go quickly from being lukewarm to very keen on Schumann. He has such a distinctive "voice". I've always been strongly attracted to his music, and he is easily my favourite early romantic, much more so that Chopin and Liszt. Mendelssohn is my second favourite from this era, and I reckon just as accomplished in most spheres.

I haven't seen the Schumann piano music 6 CD set you refer to, but have lots of examples by the pianists mentioned of individual works.

Regards the symphonies, I gave some recommendations at post#381. I don't know which I like the best, as they're all so good. I suppose the opening movement of Op 97 Symphony No 3 _'Rhenish'_ is one of the most  striking of all movements. It was his last symphony. Yes, it has lots of energy and forward motion similar to Beethoven, and yes too it's very much a scene-painting work somewhat akin to late Schubertian style.

There are lots of chamber works to explore of various descrpitions, from 2 to 5 players. Every one is worth obtaining.

Apart from his well known concertos, there are several other "orchestral plus solo instrument" works that are well worth obtaining: Ops 86, 92, 131, 134.

Once you've acquired the main works, and recognise the tell-tale features of Schumann's music, you might find his late VC ("WoO 23", the work that was suppressed for ages) to your liking. I mentioned it previously. Coming "cold" to this work without a broard familiarity with Schumann's style, is not a good idea as it's a strange piece. It's a haunting work conjuring up a possible insight into Schumann's "Jungian shadow".


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## flamencosketches

Via that Perahia Schumann box I mentioned, I have obtained ops. 92 and 134 in addition to the big op.54 concerto. I will in time check out that violin concerto. If for no other reason than that I'm very curious about why it was considered so "insane" for so many years. 

Well I pulled the trigger on that Schumann piano music box, along with a CD of his piano trios with the Florestan Trio on Hyperion, and the Piano Quintets on Naxos with Jenö Jandó and the Kodály Quartet, and then also from the same seller I got a CD of Jessye Norman singing Brahms Lieder. Got this all for under $20, shipping included, which is pretty amazing, less than $2 per CD. Very excited about all this, though I have to say I am going to be burnt out on Schumann in the near future. :lol:


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## Guest

flamencosketches said:


> Via that Perahia Schumann box I mentioned, I have obtained ops. 92 and 134 in addition to the big op.54 concerto. I will in time check out that violin concerto. If for no other reason than that I'm very curious about why it was considered so "insane" for so many years.
> 
> Well I pulled the trigger on that Schumann piano music box, along with a CD of his piano trios with the Florestan Trio on Hyperion, and the Piano Quintets on Naxos with Jenö Jandó and the Kodály Quartet, and then also from the same seller I got a CD of Jessye Norman singing Brahms Lieder. Got this all for under $20, shipping included, which is pretty amazing, less than $2 per CD. Very excited about all this, though I have to say I am going to be burnt out on Schumann in the near future. :lol:


I have several version of the Piano Quintet, but not the Jenö Jandó/Kodály Quartet version. If you like this work, it might be worth trying some other recordings for comparison.

My collection comprises:

Leif Ove Andsnes (piano)/Artemis Quartet
Maria João Pires, Augustin Dumay, Renaud Capuçon, Gérard Caussé, Jian Wang 
Martha Argerich (piano), Rene Capucon (violin), Lida Chen (viola), Gauthier Capucon (cello) 
Paul Gulda (piano), Hagen Quartett 
Marc-André Hamelin (piano), Takács Quartet 
 I'd say the best is the first one, but the Martha Argerich version is also good. I'm less keen on the others.


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## flamencosketches

I'm a big fan of what I've heard of Jandó. His playing is very objective, if that makes any sense at all. And I like the Kodály Quartet too. I think that CD was like $1.50 or something ridiculous like that so I just tacked it onto the order. May have to check out the Argerich too as I'm a big fan of hers. I actually already have the Hamelin/Takács too, I'm just realizing, but I haven't listened to it. I listened to the A major string quartet on the same disc earlier and it's a pretty great performance.

Who has made the best CD with all three string quartets? I see the Fine Arts Quartet on Naxos, looks promising. 

Also excited about those trios. The Florestan Trio is pretty great.


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## Guest

flamencosketches said:


> I'm a big fan of what I've heard of Jandó. His playing is very objective, if that makes any sense at all. And I like the Kodály Quartet too. I think that CD was like $1.50 or something ridiculous like that so I just tacked it onto the order. May have to check out the Argerich too as I'm a big fan of hers. I actually already have the Hamelin/Takács too, I'm just realizing, but I haven't listened to it. I listened to the A major string quartet on the same disc earlier and it's a pretty great performance.
> 
> Who has made the best CD with all three string quartets? I see the Fine Arts Quartet on Naxos, looks promising.
> 
> Also excited about those trios. The Florestan Trio is pretty great.


Piano Quintet Op 44 - When I compared my versions of the Piano Quintet, I did so by quickly switching back and forth using foobar media player. This shows up differences that might not be so easily identified just by listening to each on it own. They differ on a variety of things like the volume between the instruments, timbre of the instruments, whether the microphones are too close/far, speed, etc. Some of them sounded too much "in yer face". I reckon the Leif Ove Andsnes version achieves the best all round result.

String Quartets Op 41 - The version of the 3 SQs I have is by Hagen Quartett. SQs 2 and 3 are on one CD, and SQ1 is on another CD with the Piano Quintet (Paul Gulda). I used to have other versions but when I looked on my foobar listing this is all I now have. I reckon I must have discarded the others, or not bothered to rip them from CD to WAV.


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## flamencosketches

I just realized that the Piano Quintets CD that I ordered is one by Schumann and one by Brahms. I was thinking they were both Schumann, whoops. Not a big fan of the Brahms quintet.


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## Janspe

Just listened to _Vom Pagen und der Königstochter_, Op. 140. A totally unknown piece.

So many gems in Schumann's work that nobody ever talks about anywhere, it's insane. I've decided to embark on a project to listen to everything he ever wrote...


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## Mandryka

Janspe said:


> Just listened to _Vom Pagen und der Königstochter_, Op. 140. A totally unknown piece.
> 
> So many gems in Schumann's work that nobody ever talks about anywhere, it's insane. I've decided to embark on a project to listen to everything he ever wrote...


Share your thoughts as you proceed, I'm sure I won't be the only one who's interested.


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## flamencosketches

^What he said. Definitely share your thoughts, Janspe. Totally unknown to me too. 

I wonder why that is, Schumann generally facing neglect from listeners. Changing tastes, maybe? 

I would definitely rate him as one of the greats.


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## Janspe

flamencosketches said:


> I wonder why that is, Schumann generally facing neglect from listeners. Changing tastes, maybe?
> 
> I would definitely rate him as one of the greats.


Fortunately Schumann is very much at the absolute centre of the repertoire: there's a specific group of "accepted" Schumann works that keep appearing in concert programmes all the time. The symphonies and concertos, many piano and chamber works, maybe stuff like _Szenes aus Goethe's Faust_.

But at the same time, there's a huge amount of pieces that get very little attention - if any! Not everything is a masterpiece, but that's beside the point: it's just really fascinating that a composer of Schumann's stature can be so badly known among the general public. Especially the vocal works need so much more exposure!


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## mikeh375

He is of course loved by pianists as Janspe implies, irrespective of an audience perception. There is a certain joy to be had when one masters some of his clever, intricate finger work. Even better if one's ability can make it sing....I've been trying to do that for years


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## Guest

Janspe said:


> Fortunately Schumann is very much at the absolute centre of the repertoire: there's a specific group of "accepted" Schumann works that keep appearing in concert programmes all the time. The symphonies and concertos, many piano and chamber works, maybe stuff like _Szenes aus Goethe's Faust_.
> 
> But at the same time, there's a huge amount of pieces that get very little attention - if any! Not everything is a masterpiece, but that's beside the point: it's just really fascinating that a composer of Schumann's stature can be so badly known among the general public. Especially the vocal works need so much more exposure!


I believe there is quite a lot of regional variation concerning the reputation of Schumann. I used to be a member of another music forum based in the USA where I remember that there was often debate about his general standing. The North American contingent was generally (not always) rather less enthusiastic compared with the Europeans, especially in Germany where I gather he is held in very high esteem. I used to try to lend a bit support from a UK perspective, as I'm in agreement that Schumann is top grade.

I'm not sure about concerts, but in the UK I would say Schumann used to get a fair look-in on the classical music channels across the range, including his vocal works. I'm basing that on the way things used to be on the BBC's Radio 3 station. I say "used to be" because over the past few years it has gone downhill very badly, as they have trying to compete with the commercial radio station "Classic FM", by playing far too many short bits from well-known works. Consequently, a lot of the more interesting material they used to play has suffered so badly that I gave up listening to the radio except for occasional evening concerts.

One of Schumann's vocal work that I like and is seldom performed these days is Op 50 _Das Paradies und die Peri. _It used to be very popular many decades ago but seems to have become much less so in the present day, possibly because of its perceived high degree of sentimentality, a feature which may not be quite so appealing to modern audiences as it once was.


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## Mandryka

Well I've certainly never been to a concert with any of the string quartets.


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## millionrainbows

For me, his Fourth Symphony is the apotheosis. I love that music.


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## flamencosketches

millionrainbows said:


> For me, his Fourth Symphony is the apotheosis. I love that music.


Noted. Excited to get around to that one. I've still only heard the 1st, I'm trying to work through them chronologically.


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## Guest

flamencosketches said:


> Noted. Excited to get around to that one. I've still only heard the 1st, I'm trying to work through them chronologically.


Regards the string quartets, just in case you aren't aware, the three Op 41 works were Schumann's first venture into chamber music. He wrote them in the space of 2 months in 1842 whilst his wife Clara was away on a concert tour. He carried out a preliminary study of similar works by Beethoven and Haydn, and these were the result.

I've been listening to them afresh and think they're splendid works. I'd really like to attend a concert involving them. I find this kind of "romantic" imbued chamber music much more to my liking these days than in the past, when it was dominated by the likes of Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven.

Schubert's chamber music is different altogether and would be good to explore alongside Schumann's, if you can cope with any more suggestions. Schubert's piano trios and last 3 SQs are a must. Another jewel is the string quintet. Mendelssohn's chamber music is also very good indeed. There's a lot here too, but his Octet and the last string quartet should be good for a starters.


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## flamencosketches

Yep, I'm a big fan of Schubert and Mendelssohn's chamber music. As I believe I mentioned in another thread, though, Schubert chamber music has been off-putting to me for some reason lately. A lot of it has just been hitting my ears as overlong and meandering. Sometimes, when I'm in a more receptive phase for this stuff, I really, really enjoy Schubert's string quintet, his piano trios, and his late quartets, especially the G major. But I just can't do it lately; I don't know why. 

As for Mendelssohn, I love his Octet and his piano trios, but haven't heard his quartets.


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## Mandryka

Be sure to try this, which I thought was a revelation









In the booklet Eriikka Maalismaa wrote



> Schumann and period instruments
> These tracks have been recorded on an 1862 Erard grand piano. Sébastien
> Erard was one of the most significant, if not the most significant, piano maker
> of his time, whose numerous inventions from the 1820s onwards gradually
> transformed the fortepiano into the modern grand piano we know today.
> From a pianist's point of view, the period between the 1830s and 1890s is an extremely interesting one. This was a time when various piano companies - some
> of which are still in business - were in active competition, coming up with their
> own technical solutions, plagiarizing each other, or doggedly holding on to traditional principles. This pluralism was significantly influenced by the numerous pianist-composers of the day, among them Robert Schumann.
> In order to conceptualize and interpret the piano literature of this period,
> it is imperative to be aware of the contrasting and highly developed timbral
> characteristics of its instruments. This forces the performer to avoid the
> temptation of defining the sound through the features of the modern piano. The Schumanns didn't own an Erard grand piano, a high-end luxury
> instrument of its day, but Erards were the primary concert instrument choice
> of numerous pianists, including Liszt. It is likely that Clara Schumann and
> Joseph Joachim performed the violin sonatas on instruments much like the
> ones we use on this recording.
> At the time of writing, it is not yet common to perform Schumann's music
> on period instruments (although, fortunately, highly accomplished performances do exist!), and so it is pertinent to draw attention to how dissimilar these instruments are to their contemporary offspring. The Erard grand
> piano I play on is extremely agile, with a brilliant tone, but a big sound or wide dynamic range are not among its attributes. Musical gestures speak in
> expressive, short-lived moments on this instrument, which is why one has
> to inspect Schumann's markings closely and utilize all dynamic, tempo, and
> timbral means available in shaping the resulting sound. Certain expressive
> devices used by Baroque musicians have proved helpful: for example, chord
> arpeggiation is a useful tool for balancing and creating dynamic variation.
> Another characteristic feature of the Erard heard on this recording is its
> sluggish damping rate which creates a specific kind of distortion around the
> pitches. This can sometimes be a challenge when seeking clarity in complex,
> articulated textures, but it also assists in painting wondrous musical landscapes in dusky outlines. - Emil Holmström
> The first time I truly immersed myself in the world of unvarnished gut strings
> was when I took part in the founding of the Ristiveto Festival in Helsinki, with
> the uncommon objective of performing late Romantic and early modernist
> repertoire on period instruments. The unfamiliar touch appealed to me immediately, and I noticed that my 250-year-old violin adapted to the change very
> well. There was a human quality to the multifaceted and warm, nuanced timber,
> while altering my playing technique felt like an ongoing pleasant challenge.
> With unvarnished gut strings, the tone doesn't come to you for free, and
> they are quick to punish any careless or too forceful attempts. The dynamic
> range, especially on the high E string, is limited, and the modern way of playing with a high degree of pressure tends to break the tone. Fortunately, the
> Erard grand piano is the perfect companion within this softer sound world.
> Schumann's sonatas were relatively unknown territory for me until Emil
> and I decided, in 2016, to tackle all three of them as one project. These works - which are not particularly attractive to most violinists - take their time to
> grow on you. Playing the sonatas of Beethoven and Brahms can be more immediately rewarding, as they do greater justice to the violin's bright, singing
> qualities. Schumann, on the other hand, loves to dwell in the middle register,
> and his melodic writing can shift abruptly into a thorny dance. Yet, at the
> end, I have completely lost myself to this music. All the inner turmoil, restlessness and struggle make the inherent beauty and ecstasy all the greater.
> The music lives in this moment, not as something to be admired from afar.
> The middle movement of the first sonata is a winding and chattering song,
> simple and friendly. It is followed by the much more peculiar finale: like
> the stern hammering and yakking of a relentless machine, which gets interrupted by an enraptured and quintessentially Schumann-esque triplet-based
> theme. The first movement brings to mind, at the risk of cliché, a tempestuous sea, an ever higher reaching wave. The second sonata is a long and solemn magnum opus, an aptly named Grosse Sonate. Its expansive, sturdy outer
> movements bookend middle movements soaked in fantasy. The piano part
> of the slow movement floats at times into outer space, enriching the simple
> melody. The trio sections of the Scherzo create an intimate atmosphere and
> bring comfort in the midst of all the violent hammering.
> It is the third sonata - like a wounded animal, patched up in bandages -
> that has become the nearest to both our hearts. Hidden away by Clara Schumann, this last extensive composition by Robert has been written only moments before his confinement in a mental institution. The first movement,
> while tearing itself apart, also introduces one of the most tender secondary
> themes. On this recording, the sonatas are not ordered chronologically but
> with an eye towards an effective concert program. - Eriikka Maalismaa


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## flamencosketches

I will be sure to check it out. I haven't heard any of the violin sonatas but suspect they may be really good. Though I must confess to not being as enamored with ideas of "correct" performance practice as you are.


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> I will be sure to check it out. I haven't heard any of the violin sonatas but suspect they may be really good. Though I must confess to not being as enamored with ideas of "correct" performance practice as you are.


What I'm interested in most is the way the encounter with an instrument can inspire a musician to try out new ideas with a score.


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## flamencosketches

Mandryka said:


> What I'm interested in most is the way the encounter with an instrument can inspire a musician to try out new ideas with a score.


It certainly does sound like a fascinating journey that these musicians have embarked upon. Definitely something to put on my radar.


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## Guest

flamencosketches said:


> I will be sure to check it out. I haven't heard any of the violin sonatas but suspect they may be really good. Though I must confess to not being as enamored with ideas of "correct" performance practice as you are.


The violin sonatas are very good. As soon as you hear them, they're virtually instantly recognisable as by Schumann. The first two were written in 1851, whilst he was still stable mentally.

For Op 105 Violin Sonata No 1, I reckon the best version I have is by Christian Tetzlaff (violin), Lars Vogt (piano). I don't much care for the version with Renaud Capuçon (violin), Martha Argerich (piano). There's a liitle too much vibrato in the violin.

For Op 121 Violin Sonata No 2, I like best of all the version by Carolin Widmann (violin), Dénes Várjon (piano).

Violin Sonata No 3, WoO 27, is a very late work (1853). I think (not sure) that it was held back because Clara thought it was a bit suspect. The only version I have is by Carolin Widmann/Dénes Várjon. It's rather subdued in comparison with Ops 105 and 121, but worth obtaining for completeness.


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## Guest

Another excellent duo is the Op 113 _Marchenbilder_ for viola & piano. This was also composed in 1851. 
Like the violin sonatas, it has the name "Schumann" stamped all over it.

I've just had a quick check and would reckon the best version I have is by Rachel Roberts (viola), Lars Vogt (piano).


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## Mandryka

Partita said:


> The violin sonatas are very good. As soon as you hear them, they're virtually instantly recognisable as by Schumann. The first two were written in 1851, whilst he was still stable mentally.
> 
> For Op 105 Violin Sonata No 1, I reckon the best version I have is by Christian Tetzlaff (violin), Lars Vogt (piano). I don't much care for the version with Renaud Capuçon (violin), Martha Argerich (piano). There's a liitle too much vibrato in the violin.
> 
> For Op 121 Violin Sonata No 2, I like best of all the version by Carolin Widmann (violin), Dénes Várjon (piano).
> 
> Violin Sonata No 3, WoO 27, is a very late work (1853). I think (not sure) that it was held back because Clara thought it was a bit suspect. The only version I have is by Carolin Widmann/Dénes Várjon. It's rather subdued in comparison with Ops 105 and 121, but worth obtaining for completeness.


I like the third very much, maybe most even, it's so very disturbed.


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## Janspe

The opening of the 3rd is interestingly similar to the opening of the 2nd.

A recording I've been meaning to look into for a long time is one by Isabelle Faust and Silke Avenhaus. For some reason it became available on Spotify only recently, even though it's not a new recording.

I'm a big fan of the Christian Tetzlaff/Lars Vogt recording, same goes for the Jennifer Koh/Reiko Uchida one.


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## Guest

I mentioned Op 113 _Marchenbilder_ for viola & piano, and the best version I have is by Rachel Roberts (viola), Lars Vogt (piano).

I've been playing it through several times since mentioning it. It is so utterly gorgeous. The extra richness of the viola cf the violin works a treat, and is the perfect instrument (together with piano) for this work.

All 4 movements fit together so well, but when it comes to the 4th movement I don't think I've heard anything else by any other composer that can match it for its elegant simple beauty.


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## Mandryka

Yes I like Marchenbilder very much, and I like Märchenerzählungen just as much, maybe more.


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## flamencosketches

Any love for the G minor sonata? It's one of my favorites of his piano works, I especially love the slow movement and the deeply passionate Rondo finale. I have yet to spend time with either of his other piano sonatas. There are only 3, right?

Favorite recordings of this piece? I like Richter and Argerich.











Another recent favorite among Schumann's piano music is his op.1 Abegg Variations. Beautiful piece, especially for such a young voice. This is the recording I've been listening to:






But I also really like the Evgeny Kissin recording.


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## Roger Knox

Not so well known as Argerich or Richter, but Anton Kuerti has been a long-time advocate for Schumann's piano sonatas including the G Minor.


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## flamencosketches

Roger Knox said:


> Not so well known as Argerich or Richter, but Anton Kuerti has been a long-time advocate for Schumann's piano sonatas including the G Minor.


Nice, thanks. It's a little slower than Argerich and Richter both take it, but it sounds thoughtfully played with some mostly tasteful rubato. I wasn't familiar with Kuerti at all.


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## Roger Knox

Thanks for your reply. Anton Kuerti is an American-born Canadian pianist, now sadly inactive after a major stroke. He studied with Rudolph Serkin and was a Leventritt Award-winner. After coming to Canada in 1965 he broadcast extensively on CBC Radio, recorded on small labels and concertized internationally. Of Viennese heritage he was a fine Beethoven pianist, also known for his Schubert, Schumann, and Mendelssohn -- and for promoting the serious solo and chamber music of Carl Czerny.


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## Janspe

Revisiting the _Requiem_ (Op. 148) tonight. It really has been too long since I last listened to it. I'm totally convinced that Schumann's late choral works are some of his best pieces - they move me very deeply. And they are completely unknown. Take this _Requiem_ as an example: only a few recordings exist. More big-name conductors should tackle this incredible, personal and (admittedly) difficult score and make a standard repertory item out of it. It deserves a better fate than lying in obscurity.

The first movement is so beautiful, like a lullaby for dead souls. And how about that _Dies irae_, it's so strange. I just love the originality of Schumann's writing! The day I hear this piece live will be a happy one indeed.


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## flamencosketches

Janspe said:


> Revisiting the _Requiem_ (Op. 148) tonight. It really has been too long since I last listened to it. I'm totally convinced that Schumann's late choral works are some of his best pieces - they move me very deeply. And they are completely unknown. Take this _Requiem_ as an example: only a few recordings exist. More big-name conductors should tackle this incredible, personal and (admittedly) difficult score and make a standard repertory item out of it. It deserves a better fate than lying in obscurity.
> 
> The first movement is so beautiful, like a lullaby for dead souls. And how about that _Dies irae_, it's so strange. I just love the originality of Schumann's writing! The day I hear this piece live will be a happy one indeed.


I didn't even know Schumann wrote a requiem!! Good recordings? The way you describe it makes it sound like something I need in my life...

Schumann is one of my favorite composers now. His music has grown on me so much and is starting to really mean a lot to me. I am so new to classical music that my tastes are malleable, but as of now I feel a special connection with his music.


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## Janspe

flamencosketches said:


> I didn't even know Schumann wrote a requiem!! Good recordings? The way you describe it makes it sound like something I need in my life...


You might as well listen to all the available ones! I've heard the Bernhard Klee/EMI and Georg Grün/Hänssler - so far I think I like the latter better, but you can't go wrong with either one. I'm aware of at least three other recordings: Sawallisch has done it, then there's an Oehms release with Christoph Spering; then there's an old Hungaroton release with Miklós Forrai but I have no idea how available it is and in which format. Haven't heard any of these yet, though.

Where are Gardiner and Herreweghe when they are most needed!?


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## Littlephrase

Janspe said:


> Revisiting the _Requiem_ (Op. 148) tonight. It really has been too long since I last listened to it. I'm totally convinced that Schumann's late choral works are some of his best pieces - they move me very deeply. And they are completely unknown. Take this _Requiem_ as an example: only a few recordings exist. More big-name conductors should tackle this incredible, personal and (admittedly) difficult score and make a standard repertory item out of it. It deserves a better fate than lying in obscurity.
> 
> The first movement is so beautiful, like a lullaby for dead souls. And how about that _Dies irae_, it's so strange. I just love the originality of Schumann's writing! The day I hear this piece live will be a happy one indeed.


What a strange coincidence. I was tempted yesterday to post on this guestbook about the _Requiem_ and the _Missa Sacra_. It baffles me that Schumann's late works have been condemned to languish in obscurity for so long. These works deserve so much better.


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## Rogerx

Great work also, love it.


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## Janspe

This is pretty random, but ...

... I'm a massive fan of the very, _very_ late variations in E-flat major, popularly known as the _Geistervariationen_. For me, it is one of the most moving, life-affirming and comforting pieces of music written for the piano. And yet, this is what the music critic Jeremy Nicholas has written about it, to the Gramophone no less:



> The day after he completed it, he threw himself into the Rhine. I think I might have done the same had I written something comparable, a candidate for the most limp and tedious piece of piano music ever written by a major composer.


Once again I'm stunned silent by the incredible range of subjective assessments that a piece of music can evoke. How can anyone be so vehemently brutal toward Schumann's gentle, poetic musings? How is it possible that hearing the piece moves me to tears, and yet a professional critic considers it _one the most tedious pieces of music ever written_? It's truly an amazing field, this world of classical music of ours.

Thoughts?


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## Bulldog

Janspe said:


> This is pretty random, but ...
> 
> ... I'm a massive fan of the very, _very_ late variations in E-flat major, popularly known as the _Geistervariationen_. For me, it is one of the most moving, life-affirming and comforting pieces of music written for the piano.
> 
> Once again I'm stunned silent by the incredible range of subjective assessments that a piece of music can evoke. How can anyone be so vehemently brutal toward Schumann's gentle, poetic musings? How is it possible that hearing the piece moves me to tears, and yet a professional critic considers it _one the most tedious pieces of music ever written_? It's truly an amazing field, this world of classical music of ours.
> 
> Thoughts?


In general, what one person hears and feels from a piece of music can be the opposite from another person. I remember listening to a particular Bach piece from his WTC and getting the image of a village being destroyed by invaders who were hacking all the citizens with their swords (courtesy of Richter). I asked my wife for her impression of the music; she said it would be nice music for a picnic at the park or zoo. That's humans for you.

Concerning the Schumann work in question, I can't agree with either you or the professional critic. It is very nice music, no doubt about it. However, it is a work of variations, and there isn't much variation to it. Aside from the 5th variation, Schumann never strays far from the basic theme. Also, the tempos don't stray far from the theme either.

For me, Schumann's piano music from the 1830's represents his peak. Subsequently, he never recaptured the magic. But those 1830's works such as Kreisleriana, Humoreske, Kinderszenen, Symphonic Etudes, etc. are fantastic and the reason why Schumann is one of my favorites.


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## bz3

I recall similar things written about Schumann's violin concerto, that it is evidence of his 'madness' or some such prattle. I realize it's unconventional, but then I don't think anybody would call his widely heralded piano concerto as conventional. In any case I loved the violin concerto from the start, still do, and while I can see someone not liking the piece (as I could with any piece) I think attributing its peculiarities to the mental illness of the composer is tawdry at best, mean-spirited at worst. Small words by small men.

I also like the piece you refer to.


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## HerbertNorman

I really like the string quintet he wrote in E flat , Op.44 , one of the most beautiful pieces in Chamber music I have ever listened to and seen live. Schubert's Quintet for strings beats it , but not many others...


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## flamencosketches

Janspe said:


> This is pretty random, but ...
> 
> ... I'm a massive fan of the very, _very_ late variations in E-flat major, popularly known as the _Geistervariationen_. For me, it is one of the most moving, life-affirming and comforting pieces of music written for the piano. And yet, this is what the music critic Jeremy Nicholas has written about it, to the Gramophone no less:
> 
> Once again I'm stunned silent by the incredible range of subjective assessments that a piece of music can evoke. How can anyone be so vehemently brutal toward Schumann's gentle, poetic musings? How is it possible that hearing the piece moves me to tears, and yet a professional critic considers it _one the most tedious pieces of music ever written_? It's truly an amazing field, this world of classical music of ours.
> 
> Thoughts?


Gramophone hates everything. Anyway, I should check it out. What's a recording of it that you like?


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## Mandryka

Janspe said:


> the _Geistervariationen_. For me, it is one of the most moving, life-affirming and comforting pieces of music written for the piano.


Didn't he try to kill himself in the middle of writing it?


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## Ras

Mandryka said:


> Didn't he try to kill himself in the middle of writing it?


Artists are best when they are in love or when they are completely desperate!


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## Bulldog

HerbertNorman said:


> I really like the string quintet he wrote in E flat , Op.44 , one of the most beautiful pieces in Chamber music I have ever listened to and seen live. Schubert's Quintet for strings beats it , but not many others...


Just to let you know it's a piano quintet, and I agree it's a beautiful work.


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## Janspe

flamencosketches said:


> Gramophone hates everything. Anyway, I should check it out. What's a recording of it that you like?


I only know András Schiff's on ECM. When it comes to Schumann, Schiff is a kindred spirit of mine - he once said that people who are not moved by late pieces like _Gesänge der Frühe_ and _Geistervariationen_ are, and I quote, _beyond help._ :lol:


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## Josquin13

I feel much the same way as Andras Schiff about Schumann's late piano work, Gesänge der Frühe, Op. 133, especially in the performance by Edith Picht-Axenfeld (a harpsichordist that played late Schumann & late Brahms remarkably well on a piano): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvOJ83L3lL8; although I also like Schiff, Oliver Schyder, and Antonin Kubalek's recordings, as well:

Antonin Kubalek: 



Oliver Schnyder: 




Yet I partly agree with Bulldog. Schumann's most vital period was earlier. That's when he wrote his most poetic masterpieces for the solo piano. The later period is different. Yes, the works are similarly mercurial & episodic, but I find them more spiritually searching, and simple. In certain movements, I can feel like I'm in a church pew in Schumann's last piano works--as there is something almost hymnal about them, and that is never the case with his more wildly imaginative, love obsessed, & literary minded earlier works. I also hear a strong Wagner or Liszt influence in the later works, at times.

In the end, I think it comes down to the performances. Some pianists believe in the late music more than others, and that shows in their performances and how engaging they are. Although finding a cohesive unity within Schumann's discursive, episodic piano music is as difficult in the late works as it is in the earlier ones, and maybe even more so? Which may be partly the problem that many listeners have.

For example, just last week I listened to the late pianist Dina Ugorskaja (Anatol's daughter), who tragically passed away of cancer last September, play both these late works, and her remarkable pianism & intelligent, heartfelt musicianship, convinced me that these works are misjudged. I don't always feel that way with other pianists. If interested, you can hear Ugorskaja's late Schumann here on You Tube (by the way, she also plays the seldom recorded 7 Fughetten, and Kreisleriana), and I'd recommend her recording(s):






Finally, there is an older performance of Schumann's "Geistervariationen", WoO 24, that I like, too, from the great Russian pianist Tatiana Nikolayeva, which was recorded in 1983: 



. While, more recently, in addition to Andras Schiff and Dina Ugorskaja's "Geistervariationen, I've very much liked pianist Oliver Schndyer's RCA recording: 



. We mustn't forget that this was the last piano work by Schumann, which he composed before he entered the private psychiatric hospital in Endenich in the final years of his life.


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## HerbertNorman

Bulldog said:


> Just to let you know it's a piano quintet, and I agree it's a beautiful work.


Sorry , my mistake...


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## Guest

After accumulating many individual discs and partial collections, I’d like to have a complete set of Schumann solo piano music. Any advice from Schumann luminaries? I’m leaning towards Le Sage. My favorite Schumann pianist is Kempff.


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## flamencosketches

Baron Scarpia said:


> After accumulating many individual discs and partial collections, I'd like to have a complete set of Schumann solo piano music. Any advice from Schumann luminaries? I'm leaning towards Le Sage. My favorite Schumann pianist is Kempff.


I have been considering the same thing, getting a full set of Schumann's piano music. I have been looking at the Jörg Demus. Have you heard any of it? His playing actually reminds me somewhat of Kempff's, in that it is somewhat understated and controlled, yet deeply romantic.


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## Guest

flamencosketches said:


> I have been considering the same thing, getting a full set of Schumann's piano music. I have been looking at the Jörg Demus. Have you heard any of it? His playing actually reminds me somewhat of Kempff's, in that it is somewhat understated and controlled, yet deeply romantic.


Demus is available from a borderline pirate label, I wonder about the audio quality. I've never heard an alpha release that wasn't top notch in terms of engineering and artistry. And a French approach appeals to me.


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## flamencosketches

Baron Scarpia said:


> Demus is available from a borderline pirate label, I wonder about the audio quality. I've never heard an alpha release that wasn't top notch in terms of engineering and artistry. And a French approach appeals to me.


Nuova Era? Is that a "borderline pirate label"? I thought it was just a smaller Italian label. When I hear that phrase I think Musical Heritage Society. Oh, how I hate MHS, though I have a handful of CDs through them.

Incidentally, I'm awaiting what I believe is my first Alpha release, the Belcea Quartet Beethoven set. Very much looking forward to exploring it.


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## Guest

flamencosketches said:


> Nuova Era? Is that a "borderline pirate label"? I thought it was just a smaller Italian label. When I hear that phrase I think Musical Heritage Society. Oh, how I hate MHS, though I have a handful of CDs through them.
> 
> Incidentally, I'm awaiting what I believe is my first Alpha release, the Belcea Quartet Beethoven set. Very much looking forward to exploring it.


I refer to Membran, which I associate with dicey sourcing. Looking at the back cover, I see the reference to Nuova Era, 2007, but who made the recordings in 1972?


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## 89Koechel

Baron - Well, let's not forget, nor disrespect the contributions of the old, Soviet master - Sviatoslav Richter. One might mention Murray Perahia, also ... or Alfred Cortot, or Charles Rosen, or Guiomar Novaes, or Dame Myra Hess (in "Carnaval"), or Solomon (Cutner). You get the idea, I hope.


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## Guest

89Koechel said:


> Baron - Well, let's not forget, nor disrespect the contributions of the old, Soviet master - Sviatoslav Richter. One might mention Murray Perahia, also ... or Alfred Cortot, or Charles Rosen, or Guiomar Novaes, or Dame Myra Hess (in "Carnaval"), or Solomon (Cutner). You get the idea, I hope.


I certainly have many Schumann recordings that I love, Pollini, Kempff, Uchida, Perahia, among others. (Richter has not worked for me, although I know he is admired by many). At this point I am interested in a _complete_ set of recordings.


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## Mandryka

Baron Scarpia said:


> I certainly have many Schumann recordings that I love, Pollini, Kempff, Uchida, Perahia, among others. (Richter has not worked for me, although I know he is admired by many). At this point I am interested in a _complete_ set of recordings.


I think you should explore Franz Vorraber.

One key thing with Schumann is the contrast between vigorous music and dreamy music - IMO Vorraber at his best is good at this. But in truth I've not listened to all the CDs - there are a lot - and I don't know how consistently inspired he is.

IMO with a complete set, a big question is whether they can make the stuff that we never listen to, things like the op 118 sonatas or the op 10 etudes, into music worth hearing. After all for the central stuff you have plenty of individual recordings to choose from which are likely to be better than any complete set, because they have been recorded because the musician felt he had something worth recording, rather than as part of a big project,

Vorraber, IMO, is a revelation in op 118/2! I just checked.

And you may well find his tone too hard and clangorous, I'm not too bothered.


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## Guest

You are absolutely right about the rational for choosing a complete set. I was buying your argument for Vorraber, until you said "clangorous." And the wild goose chase of tracking down 13 individual out-or-print CDs is not attractive.

I guess short answer from TC is that no one has an opinion of Le Sage (at least no one that has noticed this thread). sigh. Now I'm wavering between Ashkenazy (not nearly complete, but big) and Le Sage to supplement my Kempff.


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## Mandryka

Baron Scarpia said:


> You are absolutely right about the rational for choosing a complete set. I was buying your argument for Vorraber, until you said "clangorous." And the wild goose chase of tracking down 13 individual out-or-print CDs is not attractive.
> 
> I guess short answer from TC is that no one has an opinion of Le Sage (at least no one that has noticed this thread). sigh. Now I'm wavering between Ashkenazy (not nearly complete, but big) and Le Sage to supplement my Kempff.


My view of the few pieces by Le Sage that I've heard is that he's very good on the vigorous music, less so on the introverted stuff. In fact when it was coming out I bought his recording with op 118 and op 32 -- stuff we normally never go near -- and I thought it was utterly boring.

But Vorraber isn't something to buy, it's something to stream!


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## Josquin13

I agree with Mandryka about Eric Le Sage's Schumann, but it is a good survey, nonetheless--relatively speaking, and he's well recorded. Plus, Le Sage is a former winner of the International Schumann piano competition in Zwickau, so he's not exactly a shabby Schumann player, either.

Other Schumann piano sets that are worth considering are those by (1) Claudio Arrau on Philips or preferably Heritage (sound-wise), whose Schumann playing shouldn't be underestimated (especially for his excellent Davidsbündlertänze, which Arrau considered to be the finest recording of his career, and his Symphonic Etudes, Blumenstück, etc.), and (2) Murray Perahia's superb, newly remastered bargain box set on Sony (especially for Perahia's first class Davidsbündlertänze, Papillons, and Symphonic Etudes: 



: although neither set is complete; as well as (3) Florian Uhlig's soon to be completed survey for Hänssler--which I've not heard myself, but it has received favorable reviews, & I'm waiting for the set to be boxed, and (4) Reine Gianoli's complete survey, once issued by Nuova Era on individual CDs and later boxed by Accord--which is out of print and as a box set difficult to find now (except on You Tube: 



 and 



). (I'm also waiting for Gianoli's set to get reissued.)

In addition, some collectors have liked (5) Jorg Demus's complete survey, but I'm not 100% crazy about it myself (& here, I might even prefer Le Sage, especially sound-wise)--though Demus does play certain pieces well. Nevertheless, for those on a budget, Demus's set is very inexpensive--currently at only around $17 for 13 CDs on Amazon (& it used to be even cheaper...), and, like Gianoli, he has recorded all of the obscure Schumann solo piano works that rarely get played and are worth hearing. As for (6) Vladimir Ashkenazy, he can be exceptional in Schumann--such as his remarkable Carnaval, Op. 9: 



, but it should be pointed out that Ashkenazy has a tendency to slow down in Schumann at times, poetically & romantically (& maybe too much so for some listeners?): such as in parts of his Davidsbündlertänze, and I don't expect that will be to all tastes. Personally, I really like how inwardly Ashkenazy plays the Innig movement, for instance, but other pianists, such as Maurizio Pollini & Eric Le Sage don't play it as reflectively: 



. Here, for example, Le Sage's Innig isn't nearly as introverted or poetic, though it is well played: 



. Nor is Pollini's Innig either, and I dislike what Pollini does here: 



. (7) There's also Kempff's survey on DG, which you say you already own, and (8) Andras Schiff, who has recorded Schumann's piano works extensively for Denon, Teldec & ECM, and whose Schumann playing is very highly regarded. (Btw, Schiff's Innig is less romantically played than Ashkenazy's, too: 



. While Murray Perahia, like Ashkenazy, takes a more inward approach, yet he also manages to cohesively maintain the structural flow of the music, which is a very difficult feat to pull off in Schumann: 



. Of the 5 pianists that I've linked to in this movement, I prefer Perahia's account, as he strikes me as being the most deeply attuned to Schumann's world, but I also like Ashkenazy & Schiff, too.)

Finally, there is (9) the former East German pianist, Annerose Schmidt, who was the first winner of the International Schumann Piano Competition in Zwickau in 1964, & her 3 CD Schumann set on Berlin Classics, recorded in the 1970s, is exceptional: 



. Btw, for Schumann fanatics, like myself, it is well worth keeping up with the winners of the Zwickau piano competition, which in the past have included some exceptional Schumann pianists.

Yet, with all that said, I'd most recommend that you buy your Schumann recordings individually, since the greatest Schumann pianists of the past & present haven't normally recorded his piano music extensively enough to comprise box sets (with the exception of a legendary box set from pianist Yves Nat, whose recordings are mono: 



, and arguably Arrau, Perahia, Schmidt, & Gianoli): such as Sviatoslav Richter, Vladimir Horowitz, Clara Haskil, Benno Moiseiwitsch, Harold Bauer, Sergio Fiorentino, Nelson Freire, Maryla Jonas, Ania Dorfmann, Serge Rachmaninov, Dmitri Bashkirov, Elisso Wirssaladze, Ivan Moravec, Arthur Rubinstein, Youri Egorov, Thierry de Brunhoff, Geza Anda, Deszo Ranki, Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli, Lazar Berman, Nikolai Demidenko, Mario João Pires, Carlo Zecchi, Martha Argerich, Catharine Collard, Helene Grimaud, Michel Block, Tatiana Nikolayeva, Edith Picht-Axenfeld, Homero Francesch, Alicia de Larrocha, Christian Zacharias, Sylvie Carbonel, and recently, the late Dina Ugorskaja--pianists that are all known and well regarded for their Schumann playing (& I'm sure I've forgotten a few). Ugorskaja and Francesch are my most recent wonderful discoveries among this group of top flight Schumann pianists:

--Ugorskaja: 



--Francesch (& I wish DG would reissue this recording): 




Not to mention, historically, Clara Schumann's own pupils, whose Schumann playing is often incomparable--interpretatively, despite that, by necessity, they made their recordings late in their lives, when they were past their prime--such as Fanny Davies, Adelina de Lara, Carl Friedberg, Marie Baumayer, Ilona Eibenschütz, etc.: 



. What amazes about Clara Schumann's students is that they are able to play certain movements relatively on the fast side, without breaking the structure of the music apart, and yet they also somehow manage to find all of the inward poetry and reflection in this music at the same time--i.e., the dreamy world of Schumann's imaginary "Eusebius" companion. That combination is extremely rare from my listening experience. (& with that in mind, we shouldn't forget that Schumann also loved the music of Bach, and that it influenced his piano works greatly.)

Percy Grainger should also be mentioned, too, since he studied at the Hoch Conservatory in Frankfurt in 1895 where Clara Schumann had been the head of piano studies until her death in 1892. Grainger's piano roll of the Symphonic Etudes is therefore of great interest: 



.

The British pianist, Solomon, also studied with a student of Clara Schumann's early in his life, Mathilde Verne; though he later felt that he needed to relearn some of what she had taught him, when he studied with Lazare Lévy in Paris. Nevertheless, Solomon made an excellent recording of Schumann's Carnaval, Op. 9, for EMI in 1952: 




(One historical pianist that I'd avoid is Alfred Cortot, whose Schumann playing can be dreadful, technically, but who, inexplicably, has a good reputation in this music. Which I find hard to understand.)

If you or anyone else would like, I can write out a list of which pianists I'd consider to be the best for each of Schumann's major piano works, and you can take it from there, or perhaps you'd rather choose one of the box sets instead?


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## Guest

Josquin13 said:


> ...


Thanks for that, much to absorb. I do have an enjoy a number of the recordings you mention.

I'm leaning towards Le Sage, because I'm not really looking for more recordings of the pieces I already enjoy. It is almost curiosity about what is _missing_ in the pieces that are rarely performed and recorded.


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## Chatellerault

Josquin13 said:


> (...) the greatest Schumann pianists of the past & present haven't normally recorded his piano music extensively enough to comprise box sets (with the exception of a legendary box set from pianist Yves Nat, whose recordings are mono:
> 
> 
> 
> , and arguably Arrau, Perahia, Schmidt, & Gianoli): such as Sviatoslav Richter, Vladimir Horowitz, Clara Haskil, Benno Moiseiwitsch, Harold Bauer, Sergio Fiorentino, Nelson Freire, Maryla Jonas, Ania Dorfmann, Serge Rachmaninov, Dmitri Bashkirov, Elisso Wirssaladze, Ivan Moravec, Arthur Rubinstein, Youri Egorov, Thierry de Brunhoff, Geza Anda, Deszo Ranki, Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli, Lazar Berman, Nikolai Demidenko, Mario João Pires, Carlo Zecchi, Martha Argerich, Catharine Collard, Helene Grimaud, Michel Block, Tatiana Nikolayeva, Edith Picht-Axenfeld, Homero Francesch, Alicia de Larrocha, Christian Zacharias, Sylvie Carbonel, and recently, the late Dina Ugorskaja--pianists that are all known and well regarded for their Schumann playing (& I'm sure I've forgotten a few). Ugorskaja and Francesch are my most recent wonderful discoveries among this group of top flight Schumann pianists:
> (...)
> If you or anyone else would like, I can write out a list of which pianists I'd consider to be the best for each of Schumann's major piano works, and you can take it from there, or perhaps you'd rather choose one of the box sets instead?


I'd like to see your recommendations of individual recordings of some of the seldom played works. I mean the ones not as famous as the Kreisleriana/Carnaval/Kinderzsenen but not the most obscure.

For example I really like Richter's Bunte Blatter, op.99. What else should I check, from his huge (mostly live) discography?

Fortepiano recommendations will also be appreciated.


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## Guest

My latest Schumann obsession is Papillons, and I just listened to Erogov's recording. Splendid, just wonderful.


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## Janspe

If I'd have to name _one_ moment in music history where the only word that comes to mind is _genius_ - the first thing that I'd have to say would be the bit in the E-flat quintet where the opening theme from the first movement makes a reappearance as a fugal subject and is intertwined with the themes of the finale. It's so effortless, so natural; yet so fresh, and totally suprising. I love it so much.


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## perempe

love those triplets the brasses play 30 seconds before the end of Symphony No. 2.


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## Musicaterina

I like the cello concerto of Robert Schumann vey much.


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## Superflumina

Musicaterina said:


> I like the cello concerto of Robert Schumann vey much.


The Cello and Violin concertos are both underrated. Both very fine pieces.


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## juliante

I went to see a young string quartet (very accomplished) on Saturday. The finale was Schumann's SQ in A Major - Op 41 no.3. And a splendid piece i found it! I have completely neglected his 3 SQs until now, but i will be exploring them. If anyone likes no 3 and has any recommendations, i am interested.


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## Kreisler jr

Schumann's op.41/3 was discussed in the "weekly quartet" thread some time ago, maybe this is helpful:








Weekly quartet. Just a music lover perspective.


For this week I considered the one-off quartets from Chausson and Elgar, composers I have soft spots for, but I couldn't really imagine spending a whole week with them. So I pivoted and moved to a relatively little-performed favorite from a true great whose quartets need way more exposure...




www.talkclassical.com


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