# Chinese classical



## C_Bach

Well, I come from China,probably you have never heard of Chinese music before.Although music in China can't be as highly developed as western classical music.But there are also many masterpieces which you will really enjoy after carefully listening.The main instruments of Chinese music are called zheng and erhu.Zheng is very elegant and misty(?) while erhu is melodious just as the violin.You may try these websites if you are interested in it.




I am not sure it'll works.Maybe you can try this.

The name of it is "two springs under the moon".
It's so moving that I even cried the first time I listened to it.I hope you'll like it.


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## Guest

It sounds quite pleasant' but for me at least it is as much about the structure of the music as the sound and I am not at all familiar with the structure of your music, can you shed some light on that side of your music


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## C_Bach

Andante said:


> It sounds quite pleasant' but for me at least it is as much about the structure of the music as the sound and I am not at all familiar with the structure of your music, can you shed some light on that side of your music


I am afraid not.Though Chinese has a long history and there are large amout of excellent music of course.But as time goes by ,much of them were lost.And people who took in music was humble.So only pieces of them handed down.The melodies in yourtube are seperate ones which have nothing with each other.Did you try the second URL?It's a Chinese website ,I am afraid you can't open it .It said that after Seiji Ozawa，a world famous Japanese conductor,heard this song,he said ,you had to kneel down to listen to it.The right translation for it is Two Springs Reflect the Moon ,maybe you can google it .


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## xuantu

C.Bach! You have started an interesting thread which I hope will not soon be deserted, as I too have a compassion for Chinese music.

However, I don't necessarily agree with you on saying that traditional Chinese music is not as highly developed as the western classical, since each culture's development must serve its own purpose and reflect its own values. Being cultivated in one that sees writing (including handwriting), painting, composing and instrumental playing as inseparable arts/disciplines, surely Chinese music should have some if not many unique qualities.

Chinese music mainly uses five-tone scales and it's not particularly advanced in harmonics. People with more knowledge will also notice that its notation system isn't very effective in documenting exact music. Instead of using five-line staff and symbols to mark note values and tempo, Chinese music "scores" use a special set of characters to indicate the details of when and how to produce a specific sound, which, in reality, is open to interpretation. As a result, many music was seemingly "lost" through time. However, preserving the music in its original form is never of the utmost importance for Chinese musicians, it is the images, the spirit residing in a certain piece that needs to be handed down (therein lies the development). Unlike the improvising Indian classical (needless to say, also different from western classical), Chinese music, as I understand, is all about controlled interpretation and it's basically the musical incarnation of _Tao_ which believes that the universe and mankind are most intimately connected.

Guqin (or simply "qin") is the most ancient and revered of Chinese instruments and a true Chinese invention. It appeared in historical narration some three thousand years ago. While it looks no more than seven strings extended over a piece of wood, the guqin technique utilizes both hands to the full extent. The instrument is so responsive that every nuance of movement, whether it's plucking or stroking, gives the sound a different color, a different shade. It truly embodies a Chinese artistic belief that the simplest is in fact the richest. The zheng (a relatively modern instrument) piece cited in C.Bach's post is originally intended for guqin. Here I provide another link to a clip of the second half "flowing water" played on guqin by master Li Xiang-ting. The music depicts the journey of water from its highland source to the ocean. And this performance tells another story about rises and falls in life as well.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

C.Bach said:


>


Very serene and peaceful.


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## SalieriIsInnocent

My Dad used to do work for a company in Louisiana that made valves, so he traveled to their factories in China to inspect the quality of their products. He was in China for months at a time, and he came back with many things. He brought me many CDs that had classical music. One of my favorites is a collection of works for Zither. 

I hope to go someday, but as of now I just have books and photos.


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## ulyssestone

To be frankly, I think all the traditional Chinese "classical" music add up to no more than a Chopin, or a Bartok.

We were simply not very good at music, but we own poetry.

All haiku add up to no more than a Wang Wei, or any other top 10 poets from the Tang Dynasty.

You can check out some more interesting Chinese contemporary classical music here:

http://www.spotifyclassical.com/2010/01/chinese-contemporary-classical-music.html


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## Argus

Traditional Chinese music is an area I have not yet explored at depth would like to get to grips with in the future. I have been listening to a few pieces today and quite enjoyed them. So far the instruments I have enjoyed most are the guzheng, the guqin, the pipa and a flute like instrument I can't remember the name of. Could anyone with more knowledge on the subject recommend any good pieces or performers that feature these instruments?

Also, in China, are some instruments considered more feminine than others, as I have noticed all pipa players seem to be female.

And how much of it is improvised?



> To be frankly, I think all the traditional Chinese "classical" music add up to no more than a Chopin, or a Bartok.
> 
> We were simply not very good at music, but we own poetry.
> 
> All haiku add up to no more than a Wang Wei, or any other top 10 poets from the Tang Dynasty.


I think it would be fair to say the Chinese were not very good at manufacturing glass but comparing thousands of years of musical heritage as amounting roughly to one Western composer is a difficult statement to defend.

That being said, I'd take one single piece of music by Chopin or Bartok over all the poetry ever written.


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## yoshtodd

Very beautiful, any more recommendations? There's more uploaded by the same user on youtube that I like.


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## Guest

Argus said:


> And how much of it is improvised?


I would think it is all passed down as was all folk music but the important thing is where is it going now?


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## Argus

Andante said:


> I would think it is all passed down as was all folk music but the important thing is where is it going now?


I was meaning the individual performances. Does the performer have a full piece in their head, do they just play certain melodies and improvise the rest or is it like an Indian raga where there is a set mood and mode to a piece but otherwise entirely improvised.

Listening to some of it, it sounds quite improvised but that just might because I am unfamiliar with the form.

As for where it's going now, it's probably not really going anywhere. A lot of it sounds like it could have been written hundreds of years ago and it probably was. It'll have to either either assimilate into more European and American styles or stay the same.


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## Guest

Argus said:


> I was meaning the individual performances. Does the performer have a full piece in their head, do they just play certain melodies and improvise the rest or is it like an Indian raga where there is a set mood and mode to a piece but otherwise entirely improvised.


I don't know perhaps C.Bach can tell us I would think that the performers try to keep to the original but whether they improvise on that is another question 


> Listening to some of it, it sounds quite improvised but that just might because I am unfamiliar with the form.
> 
> As for where it's going now, it's probably not really going anywhere. A lot of it sounds like it could have been written hundreds of years ago and it probably was. It'll have to either either assimilate into more European and American styles or stay the same.


But the present day composers are producing some kind of music but you and I are not familiar with it, just on a personal note I really only concentrate on Western Classical is that a bit sad


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## xuantu

Argus said:


> I was meaning the individual performances. Does the performer have a full piece in their head, do they just play certain melodies and improvise the rest or is it like an Indian raga where there is a set mood and mode to a piece but otherwise entirely improvised.


I believe it is the former.

Let me clarify yet another thing: the apprenticeship of Chinese classical music is not exactly the same as that of folk music (China has its own folk traditions too). A Chinese instrumentalist must also learn poetry, ancient prose, painting, calligraphy and philosophy to develop his/her taste in general arts and bring that into music. It is indeed a very demanding discipline.


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## xuantu

ulyssestone said:


> To be frankly, I think all the traditional Chinese "classical" music add up to no more than a Chopin, or a Bartok.
> 
> We were simply not very good at music, but we own poetry.
> 
> All haiku add up to no more than a Wang Wei, or any other top 10 poets from the Tang Dynasty.


Curiously enough, many traditional Chinese musicians tend to think that a single piece of Chinese classical is on a par with (if not more than) the total achievement of a western composer. I'd say both your thoughts and the opinions of these Chinese musicians are wishful thinking. Let's do not compare music from different cultures in such discriminating fashions, shall we? You did, however, mentioned Chinese poetry. I'm very much in doubt that you couldn't sense the "poetry" stirring at the very heart of Chinese music--Wang Wei the poet himself is believed to have composed the famous pipa piece "the conquerer removes his armor". How could you love Chinese poetry on one hand and not love the poetic Chinese music on the other!

It may be true that the tradition of Chinese music is dying because of the huge influence that the western music system has on its education. As I heard, few Chinese instrumentalists could now read scores written in the traditional format. I imagine practicing a guqin piece nowadays is not unlike learning a Chopin etude in Chinese conservatoires. There is little we can do, but I think Chinese music (and the traditional music of many other cultures) needs your attention and your love to survive the sweep of cultural internationalization.






The clip above shows a tasteful performance of "the conquerer removes his armor" by Liu Fang on pipa, arguably the the sexiest music instrument that China has to offer (to answer your question Argus, yes, there are many famous male pipa players as well, such as Lin Shi-cheng, Liu De-hai and Fang Jing-long). This piece is actually very masculine and is rendered here by a very special woman. The music illustrates the final battle between the two rival rulers Liu Bang and Xiang Yu in 202BC at Gaixia, where Xiang Yu was defeated and became the tragic hero. The first half has the smashing power and tension of a cold-weapon battle scene; the second is the heart-breaking farewell between Xiang Yu and his wife Yu Ji, since the penalty of defeat at the time was death (this story is also the basis for the famous Peking opera "Farewell My Concubine"). Without question, Liu Fang is a rock star!

Good Chinese music recordings can be very rare and expansive in the U.S. (I don't know the situation in UK). If you happen to have some Chinese friends (especially music-loving ones), do ask them to send you some CDs when they go back, especially the CDs made by a Hong Kong-based company called Hugo (http://www.hugodisc.com/). This is the most professional music company I know that's specialized in Chinese music. Each product is meticulously engineered and has very good English translation of all the written material. Hugo invite great artists from all over China to record for them and they have a fantastic guqin collection featuring the masters from both the earlier 20th century and the present. I particularly love the discs made by Zhang Zi-qian and Cheng Gong-liang, two major figures of the Guangling School of guqin music, a school that's widely known for its delicate "humming" technique and wild expression. Try this clip of "three variations on the plum blossom theme", a remarkable solo-instrument symphony, played by Zhang Zi-qian in his 80s (



). The state-owned _China Record_ company also has a lot of memorable old recordings. Just be aware, the Chinese market is flooded with uncredited crappy recordings. Don't be fooled by lovely cover art.


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## jurianbai

I already try to bring this talk maybe a year ago, but glad now it is on again.

Music is one of the four arts in Classical China, they are qin (琴 qin), qi (棋 qi=CHESS), shu (書 calligraphy) and hua (畫 painting). (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Arts_of_the_Chinese_Scholar)

The Qin is a chinese zither and represent music.

So it is must be highly appreciated overthere as well as western appreciated music. In Singapore we have a respectable Singapore Chinese Orchestra which performs regularly. It is a serious discipline which if you browse in Youtube you can see how virtuosic these music can be.

But more of my interest is how the Western idea can go into this style. because I really have a blur knowledge about how the Chinese music goes. As it is like all the instrumentalist played their instrument as fast as they can... as emotion as the can. Are they fall into virtuosic performance rather than compositional?

Also can these instrument versatile to play non-oriental scale? the most famous blend on Chinese instrument to popular audience is done by TWELVES GIRLS BAND. A kind of Vanessa Mae thing. See here :


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## xuantu

These swinging girls are not in the same class with the likes of Liu Fang.

If you want to hear western pieces done on a Chinese instrument, try this following clip of Ma Xiao-hui playing Bartok's Romanian Folk Dances on erhu. These are delicious trifles:


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## ulyssestone

xuantu said:


> You did, however, mentioned Chinese poetry. I'm very much in doubt that you couldn't sense the "poetry" stirring at the very heart of Chinese music--Wang Wei the poet himself is believed to have composed the famous pipa piece "the conquerer removes his armor". How could you love Chinese poetry on one hand and not love the poetic Chinese music on the other!


Yes because Chinese is a tonal language, our poetry did benifit from its musical element, a lot. But that doesn't mean we also made profound music. I have attended some of the most famous Chinese traditional operas, I did feel the profound emotions in them, but are they great music? There's hardly any music in it! I didn't know what the small ensemble were doing most of the time. Their power lies in the drama and the very sound of our tonal language.

I don't like to say all music are equal, because they are not. I hate the modern times media that are trying to pretend all music are just the same thing. They put Talking Heads in the same page of Beethoven, and I think that''s one of the reasons so few young people listen to classical today.


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## jurianbai

I agree, although I find it a bit hard to swing and play.

Do you know any western composer composed a concerto for chinese instrument. I know Er Hu has many concertos, maybe due to its similarily to violin. But how about more intriuge instrument like Guzheng or Pipa ? I assume Guzheng is like Piano where you can play harmony and melody at the same time.


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## ulyssestone

Argus said:


> That being said, I'd take one single piece of music by Chopin or Bartok over all the poetry ever written.


I'd take Leonard Cohen's recitation of A Thousand Kisses Deep over the Minute Waltz any day now.


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## xuantu

jurianbai said:


> Do you know any western composer composed a concerto for chinese instrument. I know Er Hu has many concertos, maybe due to its similarily to violin. But how about more intriuge instrument like Guzheng or Pipa ? I assume Guzheng is like Piano where you can play harmony and melody at the same time.


Sorry, I don't know any. Perhaps contemporary Chinese composers have written something like that.


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## ulyssestone

Tan Dun did a Pipi Concerto, there's a recording by Moscow Soloists conducted by Yuri Bashmet, available in Spotify.

What about a Gong concerto, now that's a Chinese instrument.


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## xuantu

ulyssestone said:


> I don't like to say all music are equal, because they are not.


They are certainly not.


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## Air

Two of my friends play the Guzheng and the Dizi. These are both extremely beautiful instruments, and I especially enjoy the deep cultural sound that they produce. Interestingly, both the Guzheng and the Dizi are only capable of the major pentatonic scale, thus creating the unique sound of Chinese traditional music.

For those of you who don't know, the Dizi is a chinese flute made of bamboo. It's very nostalgic and often birdlike, with intricate tongue and finger techniques.

Here are some Dizi pieces:

First off, beauty personified, with absolutely soaring melodies: 




Next, the Lark Ascending of China: 




More pastoral nostalgia: 




A more upbeat song with wicked breathing patterns/techniques: 




It just gets faster and faster! 




I know there isn't much variety (due to the limited scale), but barring that, the music is absolutely gorgeous!


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## C_Bach

Sorry for can't answer all your questions.Frankly speaking,I don't know a bit more than you in the situation that you can search it on the Internet.Well,I am sure this is an interesting topic that we can discuss together.The music in Chinese now is mainly pop music and the classical seems to decline inevitablely.As a Chinese I am so glad that you are interested in Chinese culture and traditional Chinese music.As for myself,I love “Two springs reflect the moon" ,"Fernleaf Bamboo under the Moonlight" and "butterfly lovers" best.The second one is performed by an instrument called cucurbit flute,which is similar to the western flute which is refered before.And as far as I know,there are some composers such as Chen Qigang who are trying to play symphony with Chinese traditional instruments.But Chinese instruments seem not suited for complex concerto but do well in solo.


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## starry

But how much is this music folk music rather than classical? I have heard some pieces before and I thought they had the simplicity of folk.


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## Guest

starry said:


> But how much is this music folk music rather than classical? I have heard some pieces before and I thought they had the simplicity of folk.


We get back to the old question "What is Classical music?) and we are thinking Western Classical only?
it evolved out of Folk music and then developed notation and form, so is 'so called' classical music that which has form? say sonata and is written down.


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## xuantu

starry said:


> But how much is this music folk music rather than classical? I have heard some pieces before and I thought they had the simplicity of folk.


Now there are three major groups of traditional Chinese music: classical, folk and a third group that involves a lot of acting (including Quyi and Xiqu--the Chinese drama/theater known as "opera"). They are all interrelated but should not be confused with each other. The Chinese classical probably rooted in folk music but is much more refined and has developed a great deal in technique and spiritual depth. It is the entertainment of social elite and an important medium for the spiritual communication of well-educated individuals. As for the folk music, what must not be forgotten is China has more than 50 distinct ethnic groups and most of them have their own folk traditions (the Dong people living in south provinces have this a cappella _Da Ge_; it's the only Chinese music that incorporates polyphony-- 



), not to mention the enormous variety of folk music created by the _Han_ people, the largest ethnic group of them all. It is said that the cultural differences between two European countries are no greater than those of two provinces in China.

Another interesting aspect about Chinese classical music is whether it's just about virtuosic performances or composition instead. I have to say that if you really want to enjoy the music as it is, please drop all the preconceptions you got from listening to the typical western classical. The mindset of Chinese "composers" is somewhat similar to Berio's: composing for them is more like quoting from tradition than a creative process. The reason why you might find Chinese classical pieces simple in structure is because they are almost composed in free style (also, they may have physical lengths, but in the wildest dreams of a Chinese musician, the music never ends). Instrumental playing, on the other hand, is much more important; composing is literally equal to playing something new. Although under no circumstances should technique be slighted, virtuosity is not the ultimate goal in the context. The technique of a Chinese instrumentalist is, ideally, not acquired by training but through cultivation. The sounds that come out from the finger tips of a guqin player, for example, are not to be judged by their acoustic quality alone, but also by their strengths in revealing the player's mentality. They should come from the bottom of one's heart (I think the fans of Chinese kung fu would support my view on this major member of Chinese arts). Before a performance, a guqin player must understand and memorize the whole piece that he/she is going to play, dissolving it into every single cell of his/her body. He/she "composes" while he/she plays. The piece must truly becomes his/hers during the performance (again, the touch of inspiration is definitely allowed in this communication, but it should not be confused with improvisation as we see in Indian classical or jazz).

My point is that Chinese classical is one of China's high arts. Legend has that guqin and xiao (a type of vertical bamboo flute) can only be played in front of friends and people who understand the music (the composer of "flowing water" Bo-ya destroyed his instrument and stopped playing after his faithful listener and friend Zi-qi died). How serious is that!

I need a break.


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## starry

Well I don't claim to be an expert on this type of music so maybe others understand it better than me. And of course people can call it what they want, it's just a labelling of music I suppose.

But when you were talking about how the performer defines the music in some way that is how I generally think of folk, which I tend to think is more about the performance than the music. Much of it seems to be relatively short pieces as well, and other classical musics may have longer more developed way with the musical ideas. I have listened to some other classical musics such as Korean, Persian. So I wonder how this Chinese music fits into classical music in the global sense and not just in a limited Western sense perhaps. Perhaps Japanese classical is also interested in sounds as well for their own sake but I heard a piece from there once and it still sounded quite an involved piece. Chinese pieces I've heard in the past seem to be based around a single idea more (?) and are trying to sound more pure, more simple.


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## xuantu

starry said:


> And of course people can call it what they want, it's just a labelling of music I suppose.


When you put everything into relativity, we simply could not talk about anything. After all, it is not me who labeled what is to be called Chinese folk and what is Chinese classical.



starry said:


> But when you were talking about how the performer defines the music in some way that is how I generally think of folk, which I tend to think is more about the performance than the music. Much of it seems to be relatively short pieces as well, and other classical musics may have longer more developed way with the musical ideas. I have listened to some other classical musics such as Korean, Persian. *So I wonder how this Chinese music fits into classical music in the global sense* and not just in a limited Western sense perhaps. Perhaps Japanese classical is also interested in sounds as well for their own sake but I heard a piece from there once and it still sounded quite an involved piece. Chinese pieces I've heard in the past seem to be based around a single idea more (?) and are trying to sound more pure, more simple.


I can't believe when people see the term "classical music" on this forum, the music from Korea, Persia or Japan should first come to their mind. For my best interests, on what ground shall I stand to present my argument if not the "limited" western classical, the "global" classical? I confess that I do not have enough knowledge to address so broad a topic. But you, however, are really good at generalization. You have found that China has no classical music, only folk music if I am not mistaken. Well, this is more than what I could possibly handle. I will save my breath and let you argue with the specialists.

What I want to say is: starry, you asked a question, and so I answered it. Had I noticed that you only wanted to argue, I wouldn't say anything. Now I recognize the faulty step I've made. Indeed I don't see myself stand any chance in arguing with you. Please don't make me an enemy of yours. We can be off-forum friends if you're willing to.


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## starry

xuantu said:


> When you put everything into relativity, we simply could not talk about anything. After all, it is not me who labeled what is to be called Chinese folk and what is Chinese classical.
> 
> I can't believe when people see the term "classical music" on this forum, the music from Korea, Persia or Japan should first come to their mind. On what ground shall I stand to present my argument if not the "limited" western classical. The "global" classical? I confess that I do not have enough knowledge to address so broad a topic. But you, however, are really good at generalization. You have found that China has no classical music, only folk music if I am not mistaken. Well, I will save my breath and let you argue with the specialists.
> 
> What I want to say is: starry, you asked a question, and so I answered it. Had I noticed that you only wanted to argue, I wouldn't say anything. I recognized the faulty step I've made. Indeed I don't see myself stand any chance in arguing with you. Please don't make me an enemy of yours. We can be off-forum friends if you're willing to.


Wow you are very touchy. My very first remark in my post was that I was not an expert on this music, so I was really stating that I was just giving my own feelings on it (as it stands at present). That's normally considered allowable, it's free speech. I'm not sure how easy it is to compare this music to Western classical, that's my opinion. It might therefore be easier to compare it to other musics within the far east for example. It isn't about slighting China or inflating some other place. It's about MUSIC. I think this can be a problem with nationalistic attachment to art in that the art (of whatever type) can just get lost in the argument. Ultimately everyone has their own preferences in music. My remark about whether it matters *exactly* what it is called was not flippant but I think took on added meaning after your reply. Some people consider folk music very highly, but you seem offended that someone might not consider calling it classical. Anyway forums are about argument and people giving whatever their opinion is, if you don't like that you won't like forums much. And this enemy and friends remark at the end, why get personal? No point.


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## Lukecash12

Honestly, I think the Pipa is among the most expressive instruments one could imagine.



> I know there isn't much variety (due to the limited scale), but barring that, the music is absolutely gorgeous!


Actually, I disagree with that sentiment. That's basically the same as a Chinese flutist saying all of Baroque music sounds the same.


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## C_Bach

Well,I felt so sorry you are touchy（？）on this tiny issue.The music of ancient China was devided into two kinds,"yangguanbaixue"and"xialibaren".The former has the similar meanning with classical or elegant music ,while the latter refers to folk music which is mainly popular among low-ranking people.Yangguanbaixue was always the kind of music which is very difficult to understand and the aristocracy or the emperor enjoyed listenning to the "vulgar" music,too.As the situation I know in the 17th western,music is mainly composed for the aristocracy but that doesn't mean that it wasn't popular among the pubic.Such difference is not so important when you mention about classical or folk.Chinese music sounds almost the same partly because of the culture of ancient China.The classical culture is mainly about Tao which requires a person to be detached secular to find the real peace deep in his heart so the music sounds quiet and misty.Many Chinese literatis didn't choose to struggle to be illustrious but preferred to live in the deep mountain alone to be closer to the nature thus the music is so appropriate in this certain case.


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## xuantu

starry said:


> Wow you are very touchy. My very first remark in my post was that I was not an expert on this music, so I was really stating that I was just giving my own feelings on it (as it stands at present). That's normally considered allowable, it's free speech. I'm not sure how easy it is to compare this music to Western classical, that's my opinion. It might therefore be easier to compare it to other musics within the far east for example. It isn't about slighting China or inflating some other place. It's about MUSIC. I think this can be a problem with nationalistic attachment to art in that the art (of whatever type) can just get lost in the argument. Ultimately everyone has their own preferences in music. My remark about whether it matters *exactly* what it is called was not flippant but I think took on added meaning after your reply. Some people consider folk music very highly, but you seem offended that someone might not consider calling it classical. Anyway forums are about argument and people giving whatever their opinion is, if you don't like that you won't like forums much. And this enemy and friends remark at the end, why get personal? No point.


I apologize that I haven't thought about the possibility that you mentioned music of far east because you wanted to compare Chinese music with that of its neighbors. That sounds reasonable. Perhaps I was being touchy? Oh but please! Don't bring the word "nationalistic" into this talk; nobody would become a citizen of any country just because he/she love and support its art. And in fact, I was not in the least offended by you taking Chinese classical music as folk music--one of my absolute favorite composers Bartok said folk music is the highest form of all music. You have totally mistaken there. When I used the word "argue" in my last post, I actually meant arguing in an irrational, quarrelsome fashion. I'm very glad that you didn't mean to do anything like that.

About that closing remark about enemies and friends, I put it there because I have a humble wish that we all shall be friends. I think I got this idea from the great violinist Yehudi Menuhin, a wondrously loving person. It does sound a little bit naive, but I can assure you that it has no evil intentions. Thanks for bringing me back to my senses!

Lastly, a thousand apologies for reading too much information in your post (to be honest, I had a hard time reading your English).


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## C_Bach

xuantu said:


> Lastly, a thousand apologies for reading too much information in your post (to be honest, I had a hard time reading your English).


I really do poor in English....So you may point out my mistakes when they trouble you..and this will help me improve myself as well.By the way, you needn't to apologize at all because I just hope that we can all be good friends.


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## xuantu

I can give you some advice in writing if I may. Read! Read scientific journals/books to learn how to present your thoughts accurately (I don't know if you are in the field or not); read novels and poetry to learn how to write beautifully. And work on your logic, as it is more important than any language skill. Always think before you write--think what it is that you attempt to say exactly; go back and edit what you've written to improve it. I've always believed that there is only one way to state a fact or express an opinion. Hone your skills to get that if it's your ambition.

Good luck with your English and happy music listening!


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## xuantu

http://www.philmultic.com/English/Chinese_music.html

I have found this talk given by Liu Fang at the Julliard concerning traditional Chinese music (also available in French and German). It leaves out Quyi & Xiqu, but other than that it is more or less just what I said. There is a certain degree of science (or scholarly seriousness) to this terminology issue. So please understand that taking Chinese classical as folk music is just as ridiculous as referring to a symphony as a "classical song", and when you come across, say, a youtube post that mixes up the two, take it with a grain of salt.


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## Tapkaara

Listening to Chinese Suite by Sergei Vasilenko. Western orchestral music based on, I suppose, Chinese aesthetics. Great work in the Rimsky-Korsakov tradition.


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## Argus

After listening to the pieces in Air's post, I noticed they were all uploaded by the same user. I then looked at their profile and discovered they had an absolutely massive amount of traditional Chinese music uploaded. Here's the link to _kwwkwwkww_'s channel:

http://www.youtube.com/user/kwwkwwkww

So is there an actual significant _musical _difference between Chinese folk and Chinese classical, or is it mainly things like the nobility/landed gentry preferred one particular style and as such it became more respected and known as 'classical'. A main difference in Western music apart from the complexity factor, is that classical utilises the orchestra and large ensembles whereas folk is normally for solo instrument or a small group. Is this true of China's music?

But saying this, both genres are very closely linked with classical 'growing' out of folk traditions.


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## xuantu

So western classical is more complex than folk music and uses orchestra, is this the "actual significant _musical_ difference" between western classical and folk music that you can think of? Then where should I (or anyone else) put Bach's solo sonatas and partitas for violin (an instrument used in both classical and folk music)? Since you've used "normally" to qualify your sentence, I take it that this can be accepted as an exception. But if so, why not in the case of Chinese traditional music?

Generally speaking, folk music is more natural in technique, earthier in flavor and its themes often revolve around daily life (you can go back to the _Da Ge_ clip in one of my previous posts; the lyric alone is very telling--such sounds and pictures would be somewhat out of place in an art song without modulation), whereas classical music is more studied, more refined and can venture deeper into the intellectual world. Liu Fang has already stated very clear in her talk about the differences between Chinese classical and folk music and (I hope) so have I. If that is not satisfying enough and you desire a better explanation about the musical difference, that's cool too. Forgive me if I sound unhappy, but I am just getting tired of seeing the same question being asked again and again and again.

Back to the part of your question that's specifically about sound-material choices, as far as I know, guqin (and perhaps xiao) is almost exclusively associated with Chinese classical, while suona (an oboe-like wind instrument) and luogu (Chinese percussion ensemble) are only used in folk music. Instruments like pipa, zheng, dizi and erhu (less so), however, appear in almost all types of Chinese music; they are truly among the most versatile members of Chinese instruments.

I have already written more posts in this thread than in all other threads combined. I'd better shut up.

(If you'd like to enter the spiritual world of China and really enjoy Chinese classical, I suggest you to read _Tao Te Ching_. Derek Lin's English translation is more than serviceable.)


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## Argus

xuantu said:


> Liu Fang has already stated very clear in her talk about the differences between Chinese classical and folk music and (I hope) so have I. If that is not satisfying enough and you desire a better explanation about the musical difference, that's cool too. Forgive me if I sound unhappy, but I am just getting tired of seeing the same question being asked again and again and again.
> 
> I have already written more posts in this thread than in all other threads combined. I'd better shut up.


Sorry I missed your post containing the Liu Fang link. I'll read through that now. Don't feel obliged to answer all my questions if you feel they have been answered sufficiently already.


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## Guest

xuantu said:


> I can't believe when people see the term "classical music" on this forum, the music from Korea, Persia or Japan should first come to their mind. .


Sorry do disappoint you but that is completely wrong, the *first* thing we think of is western classical music, the* last *thing the vast majority think of is Korea, Persia, Japan China etc


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## Tapkaara

Andante said:


> Sorry do disappoint you but that is completely wrong, the *first* thing we think of is western classical music, the* last *thing the vast majority think of is Korea, Persia, Japan China etc


Quite right. This is a western forum with mostly western members on the subject of western classical music. So, it should NOT be surprising that we don't immediately think of the classical musical traditions of the East.

It's like being surprised that when you ask us to think of a dining utensil, we will all probably all say forks, knives are spoons before we say chopsticks. Give us a break!


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## Argus

Andante said:


> Sorry do disappoint you but that is completely wrong, the *first* thing we think of is western classical music, the* last *thing the vast majority think of is Korea, Persia, Japan China etc


If you read his sentence again, you will realise he _was _saying what both you and Tapkaara said.



> I can't believe when people see the term "classical music" on this forum, the music from Korea, Persia or Japan should first come to their mind


I'm not sure if English is his or your first language but it is mine and I'm sure he is saying people don't think of those regions when referring to classical music.


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## Guest

Argus said:


> If you read his sentence again, you will realise he _was _saying what both you and Tapkaara said.


OK I can see that now, it was just the way the sentence was constructed



> I'm not sure if English is his or your first language but it is mine and I'm sure he is saying people don't think of those regions when referring to classical music.


Yes English is my mother tongue but not the only one.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Maybe this led to the Hacking


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## Capeditiea

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Maybe this led to the Hacking


Capeditiea likes this Post.

(imma do this from now on... because... i cannot like your posts... or Klassik's)


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## Klassik

Capeditiea said:


> Capeditiea likes this Post.
> 
> (imma do this from now on... because... i cannot like your posts... or Klassik's)


You're banned from liking us?!


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## Phil loves classical

Klassik said:


> You're banned from liking us?!


Check your likes/thanks in your multiverse account. They probably show up there. Capeditiea gets confused which reality he is in.


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## Capeditiea

Phil loves classical said:


> Check your likes/thanks in your multiverse account. They probably show up there. Capeditiea gets confused which reality he is in.


:O i am a he in this reality? :O


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## Capeditiea

Phil loves classical said:


> Check your likes/thanks in your multiverse account. They probably show up there. Capeditiea gets confused which reality he is in.


Capeditiea liked this post,


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## asiago12

Hello

I would like to listen to some classical/traditional chinese ( also japanese ) music.... 
The most famous classical chinese music in China....and the most famous chinese composers of the past..

Can someone help me ?

Thanks


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## Phil loves classical

asiago12 said:


> Hello
> 
> I would like to listen to some classical/traditional chinese ( also japanese ) music....
> The most famous classical chinese music in China....and the most famous chinese composers of the past..
> 
> Can someone help me ?
> 
> Thanks


Check out some of the music in this thread

https://www.talkclassical.com/58113-traditional-chinese-classical-music.html?highlight=chinese


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