# What makes some musicians so much better than others?



## cellogrl

Of course practicing is huge, but it's true that not every single one of us can be as good as Yo Yo Ma or Hilary Hahn. Is it early exposure? Or a different approach to music? Why do you think some people possess so much ability that many people never achieve after a lifetime of work?


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## PetrB

There is a statistic about most of the world-class / upper tier professional classical solo musicians: with very very few exceptions, they all started lessons between the ages of two to four years and never stopped.

What makes such a difference is not just a few years head start in early childhood, but the fact the child's developing mind takes in music almost parallel to the time it is also beginning to grapple with speech.

This makes music itself, and the playing of it, more a true _second nature_ -- parallel to the ease of talking most of us has, which lends the same immediacy of access and comprehension, quickness of thought in music for those musicians.

Apart from all the remarkable circumstances, aggressive work and moves, the sheer luck required for any of those who do end up as upper tier classical performers, there are still numbers of people who also started in those same childhood years and yet amount to nothing. -- Therein lies that bit of difference called _Talent (and a talent to communicate, accompanied by a temperament ready to live the life of a soloist or orchestral player_) which are elements which some who otherwise have the same developed abilities do not have, while some who do have those elements have them more than others.


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## Couac Addict

cellogrl said:


> Of course practicing is huge, but it's true that not every single one of us can be as good as... Hilary Hahn.


Funnily enough, she's our soloist on Friday. I'll ask but I bet PetrB has already provided the answer.


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## PetrB

cellogrl said:


> Of course practicing is huge, but it's true that not every single one of us can be as good as Yo Yo Ma or Hilary Hahn. Is it early exposure? Or a different approach to music? Why do you think some people possess so much ability that many people never achieve after a lifetime of work?





Couac Addict said:


> Funnily enough, she's our soloist on Friday. I'll ask but I bet PetrB has already provided the answer.


Hilary Hahn: b. 1976
"Hahn was born in Lexington, Virginia. She began playing the violin one month before her fourth birthday in the Suzuki Program of Baltimore's Peabody Institute. She participated in a Suzuki class for a year. Between 1984 and 1989 Hahn studied in Baltimore under Klara Berkovich. In 1990, at ten, Hahn was admitted to the Curtis Institute of Music in Philadelphia where she became a student of Jascha Brodsky. Hahn studied with Brodsky for seven years and learned the études of Kreutzer, Ševčík, Gaviniès, Rode, and the Paganini Caprices. She learned twenty-eight violin concertos, recital programs, and several other short pieces.

In 1991, Hahn made her major orchestral debut with the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra. Soon thereafter, Hahn debuted with the Philadelphia Orchestra, Cleveland Orchestra, Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra, and the New York Philharmonic. In 1995, Hahn made her international debut in Germany with a performance of the Beethoven Concerto for Violin with Lorin Maazel and the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra. The concert was broadcast on radio and television in Europe. A year later, Hahn debuted at Carnegie Hall in New York as a soloist with the Philadelphia Orchestra. In an 1999 interview with Strings Magazine, Hahn cited people influential on her development as a musician and a student, including David Zinman, the conductor of the Baltimore Symphony, and Hahn's mentor since she was ten, Lorin Maazel, with whom she worked in Europe with the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra.

By sixteen, Hahn had completed the Curtis Institute's university requirements, but elected to remain for several years to pursue elective courses, until her graduation in May 1999 with a Bachelor of Music degree. During this time she coached violin with Jaime Laredo, and studied chamber music with Felix Galimir and Gary Graffman. In an interview with PBS in December 2001, Hahn stated that of all musical disciplines, she is most interested in performance."
~ Wiki


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## Couac Addict

PetrB said:


> Hilary Hahn: b. 1976
> "Hahn was born in Lexington, Virginia. She began playing the violin one month before her fourth birthday...


...or we could just do a google search. :lol:
I keep forgetting that the internet has stuff other than cat videos.


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## PetrB

Couac Addict said:


> ...or we could just do a google search. :lol:
> I keep forgetting that the internet has stuff other than cat videos.


Cat videos?!? The internet has Cat Videos? Oh, please, PM me a few links


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## PetrB

and this quote, from paragraph eleven in this article
http://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/may/20/opera-figures-angry-at-description-of-soprano-stars-weight

Quoting mezzo soprano Jennifer Johnstone,
*"It* (music performance) *also requires a certain natural talent that cannot be trained into a person who isn't born with it."*


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## Jaws

cellogrl said:


> Of course practicing is huge, but it's true that not every single one of us can be as good as Yo Yo Ma or Hilary Hahn. Is it early exposure? Or a different approach to music? Why do you think some people possess so much ability that many people never achieve after a lifetime of work?


Some people are natural players. This is instrument specific. So just because someone plays one instrument well doesn't mean that they will be a natural player on another instrument. Natural players are just able to connect to their instrument in a way that someone who isn't a natural player can't do. They just learn everything a lot faster than anyone else and have amazing sounds. It is the same thing that means that not everyone can be Olympic runners even if they train as much.


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## Vaneyes

Good teachers. Passion for what they do. Noses to the grindstone--When you think you've practised enough, double it.


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## inbetweenthestaves

Wasn't it JS Bach who said in his own words that being a good musician is 1% Talent and 99% Perspiration? A healthy music scene is not made up of only virtuoso's, it contains many types of musicians and composers. There have been many great musicians who were virtuosic and many who were not. You don't have to start at the age of 6 or younger that's rubbish


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## stevens

Practice, practice practice...and you will be as good as your idols. 

Its not about how long you have played, its about how often


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## kv466

PetrB pretty much summed it up but he knows me and knows that my position on this is quite simple: You either got it or you don't.


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## stevens

"You either got it or you don't"

or better:

"You either have the motivation to get it or you dont"


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## Krummhorn

One can only achieve the output they desire by controlling the input they put into it. Practice alone, that is, just playing the notes, will not achieve high results. One must envelop the music - take it into their heart and play from the soul.

It takes lots of motivation for sure ... similarly it does not depend on which school or university one enrolls in either ... the school or university does not _make_ the person great or famous ... no ... the student makes themselves great or famous by applying the techniques and lessons learned at the institution of their choice.

I did not go to any "famed" university ... nor do I have any graduate degrees ... I learned from the ground up and played my way into the position where I am today. It took 35+ years to achieve my goal, and now even after 53+ years in the profession I would not have done anything different getting to where I am today.

There are other classical organist who can play circles around me in the concert environment ... and that's quite okay by me ... I concentrated my efforts on church music. I also perform several concerts each year too and accompany the Messiah each December (solo organ). I am damn good at what I do ... and going on my 54th year as a professional church musician, I am still learning ... always learning until the day I die.

Kh ♫♫


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## 38157

Depends what we mean when we say "better". As far as technical facility goes, I think with the necessary motivation and the necessary hours of practice, almost anybody could acquire excellent technique (although I'm sure natural dexterity plays a significant part). Far as validity in expression goes, I'd say Wild Man Fisher is Bernstein's equal (although I personally would argue that the former was nothing but a boring novelty act subject to exploitation) - the superiority of either depends on the individual listener.


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## Vaneyes

****** said:


> Depends what we mean when we say "better". As far as technical facility goes, I think with the necessary motivation and the necessary hours of practice, almost anybody could acquire excellent technique (although I'm sure natural dexterity plays a significant part). Far as validity in expression goes, I'd say Wild Man Fisher is Bernstein's equal (although I personally would argue that the former was nothing but a boring novelty act subject to exploitation) - the superiority of either depends on the individual listener.


Richter said something about what goes on between the notes.


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## KenOC

Vaneyes said:


> Richter said something about what goes on between the notes.


Schnabel perhaps? "The notes I handle no better than many pianists. But the pauses between the notes - ah, that is where the art resides!"


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## stevens

KenOC said:


> Schnabel perhaps? "The notes I handle no better than many pianists. But the pauses between the notes - ah, that is where the art resides!"


Wondering what goes on between the notes and in the pauses...hmm


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## hpowders

Simple. It 's called personality.


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## stevens

1) Motivation
2) Time
3) An instrument
4) a good teacher
5) Focus


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## PetrB

stevens said:


> Wondering what goes on between the notes and in the pauses...hmm


*Luftpause	(German f.) in singing or where one is playig a wind instrument, a pause for breath, often indicated with a V above the staff.*

As important for pianists and string players as it is for any singer or wind player. That little space between the notes, ending a phrase and cutting the duration of the last note by a hair, brings out the phrasing, the musical shapes, the lines... this is a matter of _articulation._ Far too many a lesser string player goes crazy with that continual legato which strings can execute so well, instead they forget to either stop or just pick up the bow: far too many a lesser pianist doesn't play in a way where the music can 'breathe,' i.e. take a breath as a singer or wind player would.

Those tiny spaces of nothing between the sound make a world of difference between a stream of notes and music which sounds more "like it is talking to us."

Luftpausen (pl.) are sometimes marked in scores for non-wind players, exactly to further direct the performer to articulate the phrasing. Otherwise, normal phrase-marks for string players and pianists should be implicitly understood to also include tiny Luftpausen.

And there you have a bit about 'that space between the notes.'


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## stevens

You are right Petrb, I know how important spaces between the notes and phrasings are. Im a professional pianist (and amateur violinist) myself. 
What I doubt or..dislikes, is those solemn, numb, fossil, announcements about where (and what) the divine art is.
Im so bored of all occult, solemn, snooby, dandy claims of what art is or not is. I have heard it since I where a child


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## PetrB

stevens said:


> You are right Petrb, I know how important spaces between the notes and phrasings are. Im a professional pianist (and amateur violinist) myself.
> What I doubt or..dislikes, is those solemn, numb, fossil, announcements about where (and what) the divine art is.
> Im so bored of all occult, solemn, snooby, dandy claims of what art is or not is. I have heard it since I where a child


Knowing every technical trick in the book which makes playing a piece expressively, and all about the style to render an interpretation so it is not bent out of shape -- all of that still does not distinguish why player A is just less of a musician than player B. Ditto when you go at analyzing music -- theory will never reveal why a piece is thought to be great, or beautiful.

I still despair but only a little when I hear or read "those solemn, numb, fossil, occult, solemn, snooty, dandy claims of what the divine art is." But now, I usually just laugh. They are mostly pale attempts by the small-minded who want to define something impossible to fully define or pin down, and often the impulse is from a want to identify it so to have what they think is something akin to fully knowing it or 'to own the idea,' because for them that helps. The more truly deep investigations are in the realms of philosophy, which though I'm not interested, often gets as abstract and arcane as music itself, and I think wholly 'legitimate.'

But naming these particular elements is merely a breakdown of that which is all about technique, for the performer very necessary to know and be conscious of. (There is no 'expression' without technique.)

Still, I've heard some pianists with all the necessary equipment, including the 'right' articulation, controlled dynamics, contoured phrases -- and stunningly, very little real music comes from their playing.

It is of course the basic inclination of a mind more science oriented, statistics or maths oriented, which still thinks just about everything can be reduced to one elegant formula, equation, a tidy answer, etc. The one mistake those using those disciplines make is in assuming their discipline has the capability of addressing and fully answering about any question, even those about art.

One of the most common saws is that "Music is Math." (Perpetually irritating to hear or read for the umpteenth time, and as funny each time, too.) Have you ever heard, commonly and often said, "Math is Music? Of course not, because it is Math, not music 
Something innate, call it talent, a natural line to the source, etc. is in play. To date, though many have tried, neurologists, psychiatrists, philosophers, their is no denying talent and no defining it beyond the basic definition of it given in dictionaries.


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## Fugue Meister

The simplest way to put it about the OP: Their brain is better...


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## PetrB

inbetweenthestaves said:


> Wasn't it JS Bach who said in his own words that being a good musician is 1% Talent and 99% Perspiration? A healthy music scene is not made up of only virtuoso's, it contains many types of musicians and composers. There have been many great musicians who were virtuosic and many who were not. You don't have to start at the age of 6 or younger that's rubbish


Love it... these quotes from towering geniuses _who also worked like dogs._ That does not mean a far lesser kinda little bit o talent and the same hard work will get you there. It is always the humble geniuses they quote on stuff like this, idn't it?


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## dkrisner

I believe that is takes a lot of natural talent to achieve a higher level of playing.


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## PlaySalieri

I have a special insight on this question.
Our son started the piano at 3, and the violin at 3 and a half. By age 7 he had grade 8 in both (at Violin he got distinction)
He showed an aptitude from the first lessons - and was able to practice intensively and to a high standard. My wife is not a professional musician - but completed musical education in Russia (piano) - and that has been of tremendous benefit to him as she guided him in the early years. Most top soloists in history had at least one parent in the profession, Dupre for example - and countless others - it is so important. But the guidance and establishing the importance of music at an early age is also essential. the practice must take top priority. teachers love students who come to the lesson fully prepared - and hate those who do minimal practice (ie the majority of students). Finding high level tuition as soon as possible is also critical. Most local teachers are amateurs of course - they do what they can - but for a serious level one must find the best tuition. We spent a few years at local level and ended up in manchester and then london. It is a long long story and a big subject with much more to say, but to sum up some are better than others because they have the right conditions - start young - ability to practice long - top tuition - parental support - and of course talent


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