# Fur Elise



## HyeKeys

Hello all,

I'm in the process of teaching Fur Elise and an interesting question came up. I have seen publications in 3/8 (using 16th notes) and in 3/4 (using 8th notes). Both making musical sense - My question is which one did Beethoven use? Which one is correct?

Thanks!


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## jalex

3/8 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Für_Elise#Music. Makes more sense with the tempo - 3/4 would have some pretty quick quavers.


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## Cnote11

Yes, 3/8 indeed.


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## Kopachris

The first publication in 1867 has it in 3/8, but the original manuscript has been lost, so we can't know for sure how Beethoven wrote it. We can only trust that Nohl transcribed the manuscript he found accurately.



jalex said:


> 3/8 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Für_Elise#Music. Makes more sense with the tempo - 3/4 would have some pretty quick quavers.


How so? I've always been confused by how tempo is perceived by performers. At the same number of beats per minute, a quaver in 3/4 should occupy the same amount of time as a semiquaver in 3/8.


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## jalex

Kopachris said:


> How so? I've always been confused by how tempo is perceived by performers. At the same number of beats per minute, a quaver in 3/4 should occupy the same amount of time as a semiquaver in 3/8.


Sure, Beethoven could have written it in 3/2 if he really wanted. But standard practice is to use shorter note values for faster pieces (okay, it's not that simple; there are different standard practices for slow and fast movements usually and it's pretty dependent on the composer and period, and then there's the issue of cut time as well. Actually it's pretty arbitrary. Still, my immediate reaction if I were given Fur Elise in 3/4 without metronome mark, having never seen it before, would be to play it in the vicinity of crochet = 100-120, when it should be closer to 160).


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## PetrB

Kopachris said:


> The first publication in 1867 has it in 3/8, but the original manuscript has been lost, so we can't know for sure how Beethoven wrote it. We can only trust that Nohl transcribed the manuscript he found accurately.
> 
> How so? I've always been confused by how tempo is perceived by performers. At the same number of beats per minute, a quaver in 3/4 should occupy the same amount of time as a semiquaver in 3/8.


There are 'conventions,' as has been pointed out. It is not just a matter of 'numbers' and BPM's - there is a very clear psychological impression that notation makes upon the performer, how the pulse-rate is perceived, and therefore inflected. 3 is 3 is 3.

3/8 will be assumed to have a lively feel, 3/4, in any tempo, a 'broader feel' and 3/2 is broader yet, for slow elegant dances, and some largo movements in baroque music, for example.

Barber's almost too well-known Adagio for strings is in 4/2, the pulse being a half-note. If 'translated / transferred to 4/4, the pulse would be a quarter note, with the smaller activity eighth notes. The metronome marking or tempo could be adjusted, but the slow 'sweeping' feeling would not be so readily read straight off the page.
http://ebbisham.tripod.com/barber.html

These 'conventions,' well understood by practiced musicians, are almost as clear as a written musical directive, "with a lively buoyant feeling," or 'with a forward moving but sweeping feel.'

What we see on the page very much affects the feel, and the phrasing, the larger and lesser accents which make music 'move.'


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## Ostinato

PetrB said:


> 3/8 will be assumed to have a lively feel, 3/4, in any tempo, a 'broader feel' and 3/2 is broader yet, for slow elegant dances, and some largo movements in baroque music, for example.
> 
> Barber's almost too well-known Adagio for strings is in 4/2, the pulse being a half-note. If 'translated / transferred to 4/4, the pulse would be a quarter note, with the smaller activity eighth notes. The metronome marking or tempo could be adjusted, but the slow 'sweeping' feeling would not be so readily read straight off the page.


With some composers (particularly around the Classical period) there is an opposite tendency: at a particular number of beats per minute, longer note-values for a beat imply a greater sense of urgency, while shorter ones imply a more relaxed or broader feel. Compare the slow introduction of Beethoven's _Pathétique_ Sonata with the main part of the first movement - an extreme contrast of tempi and moods. Note also that he (and others) usually notated scherzos in rapid 3/4 time. Conversely, it was standard practice in the Classical era to use short written note-values for slow movements.


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