# Schoenberg's music - meaning



## Rentach (Dec 9, 2012)

I've been listening to Schoenberg lately. I heard Verklarte nacht and I thought it was great. So I decided to figure out his later music because I realized that he was very talented. And after some time I found out what he actually wanted to communicate in his music. His music is like stream of consciousness in literature. He gives you inner feelings, but without expressing them out.

So you have to listen for inner emotional states and by that I mean listening vertically. When you focus completely on that, you can follow the music from beginning to end with ease. It does require concentration, but it's not a problem once you know what to focus on. I've read many discussions about Schoenberg, but I haven't found anything about this. And this is the most important characteristic of Schoenberg's music. You don't need to know anything about 12 tone system or atonality to enjoy the music. And the music is magnificent! He's one of the best composers ever. In line with Bach and Beethoven. I'm not kidding here.

But people keep dismissing him and don't know what he actually wanted to say with his music. What do you think about him? Have you ever noticed this ? Try to concentrate and you will see how great he is.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Easily one of the best composers of the 20th century. Sure he's had his epigones, but so did Wagner and Beethoven. Schoenberg believed in the power of generating a piece from as few musical ideas as possible. Eventually, he created entire works from single ideas, and found immense variety within them. His string quartets, concertos, solo piano music, and Moses und Aron are crucial to the 20th century canon.

I'd hesitate to say that the later music should be listened to vertically. Schoenberg took a good deal of care to make sure his verticals made sense (intuitive rather than tonal sense) in many of the 12-tone works, but like most heavily polyphonic music, it's far easier to explain any given section in terms of horizontal movement. Except in some of the free atonal works from between 1908 and 1923, his music is written using themes and motifs, the same as most other composers', and I think that people would get more out of listening for that. That said, he gets some magnificent sonorities out of atonal and 12-tone harmony, from the gloomy impressionist chords of The Book of the Hanging Gardens to the invariant duo of chords that represent the God idea in Moses und Aron.

That said, a lot of criticism of Schoenberg and the 12-tone method (not a system) is off-base in claiming that the listener is supposed to consciously recognize the row as part of the design. This is actually not the case in his or his students' work. One is supposed to recognize motifs drawn from the row, yes, but the row is there more to give the piece a subconscious unity than a consciously perceived design.

And Mahler gave him crucial support early on (even buying his paintings to help out a friend), even when he didn't quite understand his music. "He is young. He may be right." And time has shown that he was indeed.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

There is nothing I can add to Mahlerian's fine post.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

arpeggio said:


> There is nothing I can add to Mahlerian's fine post.


I'm sure that's not true. I would love to hear what you could add.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I agree with Mahlerian; Schoenberg seems to be more horizontal than vertical, at least in his early works. In Verklarte Nacht and Pelleas, his vagrant chords occur because he is more concerned with the melody than the harmony; in other words, the harmony supports the melody, regardless of where it goes. But as Rentach observed, this does reflect his stream of consciousness technique, at least in his pre-serial works; he wrote intuitively, sometimes having thematic ties occurring which had to even be pointed out to him. 

And I understand the need for concentration on the vertical aspects of his music. He has so much happening at once, especially in Pelleas, that you need to have a marked score to keep track of everything he's throwing at you.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Hey, I'm a conservative atonality-hater and I LOVE Schoenberg: that tells something about the power of his music. A truly great composer - and a very interesting personality, as well!


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## stanchinsky (Nov 19, 2012)

The first Shoenberg piece I heard was _Peripetie_. It was such an interesting experience because I had never heard anything like it. I've dabbled in Shoenberg here and there but I always felt I couldn't connect with his music. If anyone could suggest some pieces I would love to check them out.


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## WavesOfParadox (Aug 5, 2012)

I'm just obsessed with this right now:


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## WavesOfParadox (Aug 5, 2012)

I think Schoenberg is generally more horizontal than, say, Webern, but horizontal listening is still extremely important to the comprehension of his music, like all other composers.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Mitsuko Uchida, both highly astute and passionate, on Schönberg's Piano Concerto _(including some of the most direct and fantastic comments which should erase any doubt about Debussy being extremely 'modern.' _ 





The concerto is a ripe late work, an extended piece, often with flights of the highest lyricism, entirely built upon one row.

Schönberg ~ Piano concerto









It is a bit ironic that people 'discover' that Schönberg is expressive since he is, in music history, one of 'the' poster boys for Expressionism 

P.s. I've found that many a person's introduction to Verklärte Nacht is the later plumped up string orchestra version. If that is the case, I urgently steer you to the composer's original registration... string sextet. Here is one very fine performance.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

PetrB said:


> Mitsuko Uchida, both highly astute and passionate, on Schönberg's Piano Concerto _(including some of the most direct and fantastic comments which should erase any doubt about Debussy being extremely 'modern.' _


And she plays it very beautifully, too. Thanks for the link.

I almost had the chance to hear Pollini play Schoenberg's concerto in Boston a few years ago, but both he and the conductor dropped out and it was replaced with the Bartok 3rd (not a bad work, though I would have preferred one of the other two Bartoks). A shame.

EDIT: I was thinking about a rant about some of the Youtube comments, but it's not worth it. Never is.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

WavesOfParadox said:


> I think Schoenberg is generally more horizontal than, say, Webern, but horizontal listening is still extremely important totcomprehension of his music, like all other composers.


Really? I'd say Webern is definitely more "horizontal" than Schoenberg.


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## WavesOfParadox (Aug 5, 2012)

Well, I guess it depends on the particular definition of "horizontal"


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*Gershwin and Schoenberg*

As most real aficionados of Schoenberg know, Gershwin and he were great friends. They were neighbors and played tennis together. I found the following great YouTube. It contains home movies of Schoenberg by Gershwin and a eulogy of Gershwin by Schoenberg.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

stanchinsky said:


> The first Shoenberg piece I heard was _Peripetie_. It was such an interesting experience because I had never heard anything like it. I've dabbled in Shoenberg here and there but I always felt I couldn't connect with his music. If anyone could suggest some pieces I would love to check them out.


Since you picked out Peripetie, listen to the rest of the Five Orchestral Pieces. I suppose that you probably have already, but in case you haven't.

You can start at the early works and work your way through, or if thick late romanticism is not your style, head somewhere else. Pretty much everything is available for listening at the Arnold Schoenberg Center website, so no investment is required for just checking out a work or two. Start with genres that you like and know. Most people tend to find works associated with their instrument (if you play or have played one) more accessible.

http://www.schoenberg.at/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=208&Itemid=166&lang=en

If I could recommend _not_ listening to a few works first, being among Schoenberg's lesser achievements:
*Von Heute auf Morgen* - a comic opera that the composer thought could be a popular hit, written in complex 12-tone style. The libretto isn't very good (penned by Schoenberg's wife), and there's an odd disconnect between it and the music.

*Suite for Strings* - a later tonal work, sort of Neoclassical, imitating a Baroque concerto. It feels stodgy by comparison to the Suite for Piano, an early 12-tone work with a similar idea. He didn't even give this work an opus number.

Actually, come to think of it, I have a great recommendation.

The brief (8-9 minutes) *Begleitung zu einer Lichtspielscene Op. 34*, written as a score to an imaginary film, is a taut, dramatic miniature. It was one of the pieces I first really loved by Schoenberg.

Find it here:
http://www.schoenberg.at/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=934&Itemid=653&lang=en


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

WavesOfParadox said:


> Well, I guess it depends on the particular definition of "horizontal"


What's your definition?


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## Rapide (Oct 11, 2011)

I can recognise Schoenberg's contribution as the "founder" of twelve-tone but I think he was too obsessed by it as a means and lost all track of musical expression.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Rapide said:


> I can recognise Schoenberg's contribution as the "founder" of twelve-tone but I think he was too obsessed by it as a means and lost all track of musical expression.


Starting when? Which works seem to be the work of a composer with no expressive sense?

Schoenberg always stressed that the 12-tone system was a method, not an end in itself, but a means to it. I hope that you are not conflating pre-serial atonal music with the 12-tone works...


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

arpeggio said:


> As most real aficionados of Schoenberg know, Gershwin and he were great friends. They were neighbors and played tennis together. I found the following great YouTube. It contains home movies of Schoenberg by Gershwin and a eulogy of Gershwin by Schoenberg.


LOL:


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

violadude said:


> What's your definition?


_Lol. when in doubt, go to a dictionary... as I think the person who said, "I guess it depends on the particular definition of horizontal" *very much needs to do.*_

hor·i·zon·tal 
/ˌhôrəˈzäntl/
Adjective
Parallel to the plane of the horizon; at right angles to the vertical.
Noun
A horizontal line, plane, etc.

"To me, _______ means." Well, if you hope to communicate clearly with others, a dictionary can be very useful. (The point being there is never any "your definition," or "interpretation" of horizontal 

Fact is many a composer, like a pianist or anyone who reads multiple stave scores with ease, simultaneously thinks both horizontally and vertically. That is where the very true statement, "Good counterpoint is good harmony: good harmony is good counterpoint." comes from....


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Rentach said:


> I've been listening to Schoenberg lately. I heard Verklarte nacht and I thought it was great. So I decided to figure out his later music because I realized that he was very talented. *And after some time I found out what he actually wanted to communicate in his music. His music is like stream of consciousness in literature. He gives you inner feelings, but without expressing them out.*
> 
> *So you have to listen for inner emotional states and by that I mean listening vertically. When you focus completely on that, you can follow the music from beginning to end with ease. It does require concentration, but it's not a problem once you know what to focus on.* I've read many discussions about Schoenberg, but I haven't found anything about this. And this is the most important characteristic of Schoenberg's music. You don't need to know anything about 12 tone system or atonality to enjoy the music. And the music is magnificent! He's one of the best composers ever. In line with Bach and Beethoven. I'm not kidding here.
> 
> But people keep dismissing him and don't know what he actually wanted to say with his music. What do you think about him? Have you ever noticed this ? Try to concentrate and you will see how great he is.


Rentach's OP says it all: just listen, and realize that Schoenberg is expressing his "inner states" of emotion and being, which we relate to by empathy. He also notes that "...he gives you inner feelings, but without expressing them out," I suppose meaning that the emotions expressed are not explicitly narrative or literal, which goes without saying; this is not opera. See my latest blog on this subject, *Instrumental music and dramatic gesture.*

It is both horizontal (melodic or counterpoint) and vertical (harmony, chords). The texture should tell you which is occuring: if you hear a bunch of separate threads, it's counterpoint; and if you hear big chords, it's harmonic.

Rentach said:* "...So you have to listen for inner emotional states and by that I mean listening vertically." *
I think most listeners key on chords & harmony for "feelings," like the difference in major/happy, minor/sad, but much more complex than that.

What Mahlerian said is correct; the 12-tone row should be seen as an "index," like a scale, from which "motives" are drawn. These motives usually have a rhythmic signature, which aids in their comprehension as 'musical identities'. The tone row by itself is not the focus of the listener's attention.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

WavesOfParadox said:


> Well, I guess it depends on the particular definition of "horizontal"


Ah, but all that work has been done for you already!

hor·i·zon·tal 
/ˌhôrəˈzäntl/
Adjective
Parallel to the plane of the horizon; at right angles to the vertical.
Noun
A horizontal line, plane, etc.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

PetrB said:


> LOL:


That's great. I loved it when the motif from Entrucknung came in suddenly (at 1:13). I just wish that it could be a better sounding MIDI piano.


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## stanchinsky (Nov 19, 2012)

I checked out _Begleitung zu einer Lichtspielscene_, pretty good although I wouldn't know quite how to describe it. Also is the the _Suite For Strings_ piece you were talking about? Just asking because the beginning sounds nothing like Shoenberg.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

stanchinsky said:


> I checked out _Begleitung zu einer Lichtspielscene_, pretty good although I wouldn't know quite how to describe it. Also is the the _Suite For Strings_ piece you were talking about? Just asking because the beginning sounds nothing like Schoenberg.


That's the one. I'm not really a fan of it. He intended it for student orchestras (see also his prelude for band in G minor), but for obvious reasons, it never caught on. Thanks for listening to the suggestion. Don't worry about descriptions. Begleitmusik is something like a series of moods, hence the name Accompaniment to a Cinematographic Scene. It would have been interesting if he had been able to work in Hollywood, but his demands were ridiculous.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Schoenberg's use of the twelve-tone system is often misunderstood. The fact is, Schoenberg, Webern, and Berg got all the possible tone-rows, and sifted-out all the most desirable ones, i.e., those which exhibited certain favorable characteristics of symmetry under transformation. Then they had a poker game, and Berg, being the winner, got to choose the rows he wanted. Schoenberg then played Webern for the rest, and won.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

millionrainbows said:


> Schoenberg's use of the twelve-tone system is often misunderstood. The fact is, Schoenberg, Webern, and Berg got all the possible tone-rows, and sifted-out all the most desirable ones, i.e., those which exhibited certain favorable characteristics of symmetry under transformation. Then they had a poker game, and Berg, being the winner, got to choose the rows he wanted. Schoenberg then played Webern for the rest, and won.


Leaving Webern with a consolation prize of that cigar, which he later saved, and one evening in postwar occupied Mittersill, Salzburg, walked outside after dark to take a break and light up that cigar, and....


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

PetrB said:


> Leaving Webern with a consolation prize of that cigar, which he later saved, and one evening in postwar occupied Mittersill, Salzburg, walked outside after dark to take a break and light up that cigar, and....


BANG! plop!


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

You guys are awful!


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Manxfeeder said:


> You guys are awful!


Webern should have known that smoking was bad for his health, and also should have left Germany with Schoenberg.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

I amazed he survived in Nazi regime.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

arpeggio said:


> I amazed he survived in Nazi regime.


Schoenberg was very upset that Webern remained in Austria, and cut him off.


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## Rentach (Dec 9, 2012)

You're right. Later music is more horizontal than early atonal. I get a feeling the music became more sophisticated as he went on. Just look at the Piano concerto. He makes the melody stand out even though it's not tonal. And it feels so easy and relaxing throughout the first movement. And the third movement is the saddest thing I've heard since adagio from Hammerklavier. 
Later he wrote the String trio which is his best work in my opinion. What do you think about it? To me it's one of the best compositions ever.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Rentach said:


> You're right. Later music is more horizontal than early atonal. I get a feeling the music became more sophisticated as he went on. Just look at the Piano concerto. He makes the melody stand out even though it's not tonal. And it feels so easy and relaxing throughout the first movement. And the third movement is the saddest thing I've heard since adagio from Hammerklavier.
> Later he wrote the String trio which is his best work in my opinion. What do you think about it? To me it's one of the best compositions ever.


_Rentach, I'm not sure who you are responding to, so I'll jump in. Yes, Schoenberg was more "vertical" and dealt with harmonic effects, because that was his concern; to overcome the obstacles inherent to the ordered rows of 12-tone, and create "real music" with it; by that, I mean "real music" which came out of, and continued, the tradition which Schoenberg was a part of. He was also an "expressionist," which means he sought to express emotions & feelings with his art.

Later, Boulez castigated Schoenberg for being too "retro-Brahms," and took serialism away from harmony during that time. This doesn't mean that either artist was "wrong;" the aesthetic goals had changed by then.

Nowadays, in the post-modern "neo-tonal" era, composers have a renewed interest in Schoenberg's approach. George Perle calls it "Twelve-Tone Tonality" in his book. Milton Babbitt was interested in these aspects also (and was likewise snubbed by Boulez). Now, things have changed, and we make the finest of wines in California and Texas, which meet or beat French wines; likewise with serialism. Screw Boulez; who needs his attitude? I love his music, tho.
_


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

In regard to violadude's assertion that Webern is more "horizontal," I think the opposite is true. Webern's works were very short, and I think he depended on "sonorities" and on moments in time which seem to stop. The Variations for Piano, for example: da-da-da-da; da da da da, a retrograde canon. Not much material to expound there; these almost have to be "moments of sonority."

I tink Webern & Boulez represent a trend away from horizontal, narrative development, and often go for "suspended moments in time.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Seems like a good place to post this. This example includes every note from 4 bars of a Schoenberg work, slowed down to represent every individual harmony that appears, but the voicing has been tightened into block chords and notes have been enharmonically respelled. Can anyone figure out which work it is?









Edit: Realizing how incredibly vague my description was, I'll add that it is the _first_ four bars from the _fourth_ movement of a work.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I don't know. Is it one of the Chamber Symphonies?


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## FLighT (Mar 7, 2013)

This thread is an excellent read.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

millionrainbows said:


> I don't know. Is it one of the Chamber Symphonies?


Nope. It's for a small ensemble, though.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> Nowadays, in the post-modern "neo-tonal" era, composers have a renewed interest in Schoenberg's approach.


I didn't know that. All I can say is, hooray!


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