# Is Toscanini's Beethoven Ninth too fast?



## Guest (Nov 19, 2012)

I found the first movement way too rushed and not enough space was given for the movement to be enjoyed. [Similar to Leibowitz but faster].

What are your thoughts?


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

karajan said:


> I found the first movement way too rushed and not enough space was given for the movement to be enjoyed. [Similar to Leibowitz but faster].
> 
> What are your thoughts?


You can find very leisurely or even ponderous (Klemperer) performances if that's what you want,but if you listen to Toscanini,Furtwaengler,Carl Schuricht,Fritz Busch,George Szell.etc they are faster.
The movement is marked Allegro ma non troppo = fast but not too fast. Well that can mean different things to different people
I think you have to look at the overall concept behind the conductor's thinking. I've always liked the Toscanini--I presume this is the NBC recording that you are considering ?--,it is brisk and the lousy RCA recording makes it sound faster and harder than it really is.
Carl Schuricht takes 14.24 minutes to do it,Szell 15.34, have you timed the Toscanini ?

EDIT. I have checked Toscanini's time and he's 88 seconds faster than Schuricht--that's all !


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## taratot (Dec 20, 2012)

I take it you are referring to the commercially issued 1952 NBC performance, which I think is one of the greatest readings of the score ever given. Despite the generous acoustics of Carnegie Hall, the recording engineers did not find a perfect microphone placement, which gives the impression of narrow dynamics.

Actually, Toscanini's fastest reading of the 1st movement was in the 1948 NBC telecast which is available on DVD.

I have live recordings o the 9th from 1936 (New York Philharmonic), 1937 (BBC Symphony), 1938 (NBC), 1939 (NBC) and 1941 (Teatro Colon Orchestra). While the overall architecture is very similar, different details do emerge. Back in the 30s, Toscanini was generally more flexible with his tempos. He was also at the peak of his astonishing career.

I highly recommend any of these earlier performances. Let me know if you are interested, as I can point you in the right direction.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I'm listening to it now. It is fast, but to me, it doesn't seem to be driven; there are subtle variations in tempo. 

The key for me is the adagio, where Toscanini does allow for breathing room.


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## Hassid (Sep 29, 2012)

Toscanini was always too fast. Can't stand him.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

I used to think that.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Just listening to it myself after a long time. It does seem very fast and the recording doesn't help. Interestingly Toscanini clocks in at 13'30", Norrington 14'09", Karajan 15'27" and Klemperer 17'03" (1957 studio) 17'17" (1958 live). So the Italian even outspeeds the period movement specialist. Of course, tempi are illusory, depending on the conductor. But I would say Karajan gets it about right although I always have time for Klemperer's granite-like strength and build up.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

taratot said:


> I take it you are referring to the commercially issued 1952 NBC performance, which I think is one of the greatest readings of the score ever given. Despite the generous acoustics of Carnegie Hall, the recording engineers did not find a perfect microphone placement, which gives the impression of narrow dynamics.
> 
> Actually, Toscanini's fastest reading of the 1st movement was in the 1948 NBC telecast which is available on DVD.
> 
> ...


I was fortunate enough to attend Toscanini's Brahms concert in London in 1952 and have been a fan ever since.
There are few who can approach him as a musician and certainly not the heartless Karajan


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## tahnak (Jan 19, 2009)

karajan said:


> I found the first movement way too rushed and not enough space was given for the movement to be enjoyed. [Similar to Leibowitz but faster].
> 
> What are your thoughts?


Yes, indeed! It is rushed. Not only Beethoven's Choral first movement ; majority of Toscanini's tempi are invariably on the rushed side. Three readings that i liked of Toscanini with the rushed speeds are Tchaikovsky's Manfred, Dvorak's New World Symphony and Rossini's Barber of Seville.


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## tahnak (Jan 19, 2009)

DavidA said:


> Just listening to it myself after a long time. It does seem very fast and the recording doesn't help. Interestingly Toscanini clocks in at 13'30", Norrington 14'09", Karajan 15'27" and Klemperer 17'03" (1957 studio) 17'17" (1958 live). So the Italian even outspeeds the period movement specialist. Of course, tempi are illusory, depending on the conductor. But I would say Karajan gets it about right although I always have time for Klemperer's granite-like strength and build up.


Check out Leonard Bernstein/ New York Philharmonic, Zubin Mehta/New York and Georg Solti/Chicago


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

tahnak said:


> Yes, indeed! It is rushed. Not only Beethoven's Choral first movement ; majority of Toscanini's tempi are invariably on the rushed side. Three readings that i liked of Toscanini with the rushed speeds are Tchaikovsky's Manfred, Dvorak's New World Symphony and Rossini's Barber of Seville.


He tends to go fast on fast stuff. He slows down for the slow movements. It makes for a nice contrast in moods. I never feel rushed with Toscanini, because the rhythm is so precise, there's always a bit of a bounce to keep it from rushing by.


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## tgtr0660 (Jan 29, 2010)

Yes it is. I prefer slower but with energy. Furtwangler, Solti, Wand, those are slower than Toscanini (though not extremely so in Wand's case) and are much more to my liking. Bohm's, on the other hand, is slower, as slow as Furtwangler probably, but drags like a dead corpse.


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

For the first movement I do find Toscanini a touch too fast for my taste. On the whole he does a good job of not making it feel too rushed but there are a few spots where that feeling does come across.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Hassid said:


> Toscanini was always too fast. Can't stand him.


I am totally opposite. Didn't even consider Toscanini thinking all those old guys were rather into mid to slow tempo but Tocanini's 1949-1953 cycle is as fast as Zinman's. I love it.

Old thread. I know. But it's Beethoven and we (me, myself and I anyway) can't have too many Beethoven threads, old or new.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Hassid said:


> Toscanini was always too fast. Can't stand him.


Even in 2012 there where strong opinions.


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