# Vienna under attack from terrorists



## Guest (Nov 2, 2020)

This dreadful scenario is unfolding as I write. All I can contribute is this:


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

People had to wait inside the Vienna State Opera. Then the orchestra started to play:
https://www.rt.com/news/505334-vienna-orchestra-serenades-barricaded-civilians/


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

There are Western sources for that story too, which I'd personally prefer reading in stead
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54788613


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Might as well stick a pin blindfolded into a map to see where it will happen next - hardly anywhere in Western Europe is safe from these extremist nutjobs.


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2020)

elgars ghost said:


> Might as well stick a pin blindfolded into a map to see where it will happen next - hardly anywhere in Western Europe is safe from these extremist nutjobs.


Hardly anyplace in the world is safe from extremists of some stripe.


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

Baron Scarpia would get those bad boys!!! No, but seriously this is disgusting...Madness blooms in autumn...


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

elgars ghost said:


> Might as well stick a pin blindfolded into a map to see where it will happen next - hardly anywhere in Western Europe is safe from these extremist nutjobs.


The UK has declared high alert which suggests they anticipate something on British soil.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

In the UK it's virtually a conditioned reflex.


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2020)

elgars ghost said:


> In the UK it's virtually a conditioned reflex.


What a shocking statement, if true.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

elgars ghost said:


> In the UK it's virtually a conditioned reflex.


You've lost me there, what do you mean?


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

IRA back in the 70s and 80s - Islam extremism over the last few years - is it that difficult?


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2020)

elgars ghost said:


> IRA back in the 70s and 80s - Islam extremism over the last few years - is it that difficult?


No, that's not difficult. What is difficult to swallow is that it's become 'a conditioned reflex'. A capitulation, in short.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Maybe it's a case of desensitization because no-one ever seems to to march on behalf of those who get blown up, shot or stabbed simply because they are easy targets for some Islamic zealot. Protest is too selective - if people want to demonstrate against the building of the next flyover near London or the killing of George Floyd then why in the hell can't they also demonstrate against this?


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2020)

elgars ghost said:


> Maybe it's a case of desensitization because no-one ever seems to to march on behalf of those who get blown up, shot or stabbed simply because they are easy targets for some Islamic zealot. Protest is too selective - if people want to demonstrate against the building of the next flyover near London or the killing of George Floyd then why in the hell can't they also demonstrate against this?


Without a clear and achievable aim there is no point demonstrating. Unlike anti-war protests - which want the war ended or a nation's involvement concluded - there isn't a clear outcome for anti-terrorism marches. It seems like an apple pie statement; yes, we're all opposed to terrorism - no arguments - but what are the *achievable aims* of that stance? This is the problem as I see it.

For example; we can demonstrate against domestic violence; what are the achievable outcomes if the court system continually offers leniency to offenders? Nobody wants to think through the chain of cause and effect; punishment/leniency and recidivism. In the case of the Vienna terrorist he went to jail but was released early because of his age. That's just dumb.


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

I just don't effing get it...That dude, the Albanian, came from a SH country that is northern Macedonia, or his family came, all the same, to a civilized, organized and materially fair country, he got all the conditions for a nice and peaceful life and what does he do, squanders all because of a religion of some warlord ''caravan robber'' from 6th century ad...Everyone who knows Albanians knows they are not really so much into any religion, be it Islam, Catholicism, Orthodoxy, they are more about the clans, communities, ethnicity etc...


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Flamme, he was actually born in Austria. The terrorist attacks and the radicalization usually dont happen with direct immigrants, it is usually their children already born in the host country. They feel alienated both from their original country and from their host country, and they fall prey to these imams who recruit them to the radical islam. I think it is essential to fight preachers of radical islam in mosques, especially those coming from abroad (Saudi Arabia has been sending these to the west). France has been doing quite a good job about that recently.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2020)

Jacck said:


> Flamme, he was actually born in Austria. The terrorist attacks and the radicalization usually dont happen with direct immigrants, it is usually their children already born in the host country. They feel alienated both from their original country and from their host country, and they fall prey to these imams who recruit them to the radical islam. I think it is essential to fight preachers of radical islam in mosques, especially those coming from abroad (Saudi Arabia has been sending these to the west). France has been doing quite a good job about that recently.


This is incorrect. Direct immigrants have been responsible for atrocities in France - one only recently. Alienation is definitely part of the problem; not necessarily from a host country but from society in general. These people wouldn't fit in anywhere except the most radical fringes, but it's frightening to think that their alienation finds expression through legitimate, socially sanctioned religious outlets. There have been big mistakes in multiculturalism, the main one being that the new arrivals don't have to learn the language of the welcoming country - which is the case in Australia. This has created enclaves and ghettos and only added to the sense of difference and alienation.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2020)

The European cultural clash is part of the problem of terrorism too. Europe is seen by many muslims (not just terrorists) as decadent, and I have to say there is some truth to that. They come with vastly different values. Let me share an experience I had when I was living in Vienna:

One day on a old style streetcar a muslim family was seated near us on one of those side seats. Mum, Dad and about 4 kids. Mum was wearing one of those heavy coats over her clothing and head covering and it was a very hot day. Suddenly one of the young boys - he was about 7 - leaned down towards his mother's feet. The very bottom button on her heavy coat had come undone and he was doing it up again!!! Spouse and myself looked at each other and we wondered which of our children would have noticed this undone button let alone do it up again!! This spoke volumes to both of us. We wondered how that would integrate with young women walking the streets in skirts so short they left nothing to the imagination, tattoos, body piercing and decolletage.


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

Here I thought the coronavirus had distracted the terrorists.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2020)

Open Book said:


> Here I thought the coronavirus had distracted the terrorists.


The spouse has just heard on the news (he's a news junkie) that one of the countries adjoining Austria - probably Slovenia - contacted the Austrian authorities a while back to advise them that this terrorist had purchased a high-powered rifle. They ignored this; and the terrorist had been let out of jail early because of his age. Permissiveness kills.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Christabel said:


> The European cultural clash is part of the problem of terrorism too. Europe is seen by many muslims (not just terrorists) as decadent, and I have to say there is some truth to that. They come with vastly different values.


I imagine that in more fevered minds it boils over into out-and-out resentment deriving not necessarily from IS-style zeal but personal jealousy and/or dysfunction which dons the mask of piety. Most of the advanced countries of the world are also predominantly secular and their godless citizens enjoy the levels of individual freedom and abundance of lifestyle choices which are far harder to both attain and accept within those societies where religion encourages - if not triggers - a narrow and suspicious worldview.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2020)

elgars ghost said:


> I imagine that in more fevered minds it boils over into out-and-out resentment deriving not necessarily from IS-style zeal but personal jealousy and/or dysfunction which dons the mask of piety. Most of the advanced countries of the world are also predominantly secular and their godless citizens enjoy the levels of individual freedom and abundance of lifestyle choices which are far harder to both attain and accept within those societies where religion encourages - if not triggers - a narrow and suspicious worldview.


I presume you mean all religion and not just Islam, for argument's sake. You point is well taken, though I'm not convinced that an 'abundance of lifestyle choices' actually leads to more freedom. The 'narrow and suspicious world view' isn't exclusively a 21st century phenomenon and we see restrictions on the choices of immigrants coming from other cultures not merely on religious grounds. These generally form the culture clash for their offspring in the new country, as referred to earlier by Jaack and demonstrated by my anecdote about the boy on the Vienna streetcar.

You do mention personal jealousy and I must say you've nailed an important issue here. Third world countries, where many of these immigrants come from, resent past incursions from European powers and this has built generational resentment. But I don't think it's a first order issue. Why would you want to come and live in a country or countries you openly resent? Unless you thought you could partake of the material things and opportunities on offer; that would be the game-changer.

The western world has become very adept at advertizing its material advantages. Images of American affluence have beamed into the homes of poor countries the world over since the post-war period. American hegemony and capitalism have tantalized those who could only vicariously experience success through the moving image. And the hubris which attaches to that material wealth and success might easily create feelings of envy and resentment, especially when it is flaunted with such monotonous regularity. The seduction of the car, the nice house, the great job, the spoilt kids; the accoutrements of success right there in living colour and stereophonic sound. I've been constantly amazed in my lifetime to learn that even in the most impoverished villages the world over, with dirt floors, people often have television sets.

And I've always wondered about the wisdom of economic braggadocio via the media and the impact of that upon less fortunate nations. I've always felt it engendered covetousness which could provide an existential threat into the future. And here we are. In the case of radical Islam it devolves into 'if I can't have it neither can you' under the aegis of god's punishment for decadence. Something tells me that if we all lived more frugal existences this threat would be greatly diminished in prosperous western nations though I cannot, of course, prove that. For surely terrorism exists in poor countries, but these are usually internecine wars and claims over territory. No such claims can exist in France and Germany, for example.

However, we do have something that money cannot buy; democracy. Whether this provides a challenge for immigrants or a benefit I cannot say.


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

Christabel said:


> The spouse has just heard on the news (he's a news junkie) that one of the countries adjoining Austria - probably Slovenia - contacted the Austrian authorities a while back to advise them that this terrorist had purchased a high-powered rifle. They ignored this; and the terrorist had been let out of jail early because of his age. Permissiveness kills.


It is Slovakia, not Slovenia. The Slovakian secret service contacted the Austrian secret service, but nothing happened. The terrorist was released from jail because he was judged by those who are experts in these matters to be 'deradicalized'. Two huge system failures in state security that resulted in a shooting spree.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

TxllxT said:


> It is Slovakia, not Slovenia. The Slovakian secret service contacted the Austrian secret service, but nothing happened. The terrorist was released from jail because he was judged by those who are experts in these matters to be 'deradicalized'. Two huge system failures in state security that resulted in a shooting spree.


Bush confused the two countries too  Trump probably does not, since his current wife is Slovenian. I would guess that it was a communication failure between the secret service warning and those deciding about his rehabilitation. It is not really easy to decide about these matters, you cannot read anyones mind and any intelligent person can conceal his true intentions and fool the psychologists (or whoever decides about these matters)


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## Eclectic Al (Apr 23, 2020)

I agree with this. There is the world as one might like it to be, and there is the world as it is. In the world as it is there are problems arising from brute facts about how people behave, and those facts get people killed (terrorist victims, and terrorists themselves). There comes a point where you have to acknowledge the world as it is, and try and make that work better - not pretend that it can be perfect.


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

Members are reminded that discussion of politics and religion belongs in the groups area.

We are happy to have expressions of sympathy for events in Vienna on the public forum.

A number of posts on religious and political topics have been removed.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2020)

TxllxT said:


> It is Slovakia, not Slovenia. The Slovakian secret service contacted the Austrian secret service, but nothing happened. The terrorist was released from jail because he was judged by those who are experts in these matters to be 'deradicalized'. Two huge system failures in state security that resulted in a shooting spree.


And sadly an indictment of the western world and its, er, penchant for leniency.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2020)

Jacck said:


> Bush confused the two countries too  Trump probably does not, since his current wife is Slovenian. I would guess that it was a communication failure between the secret service warning and those deciding about his rehabilitation. It is not really easy to decide about these matters, you cannot read anyones mind and any intelligent person can conceal his true intentions and fool the psychologists (or whoever decides about these matters)


I always remember Slovenia because Carlos Kleiber died there. (Oh, we still miss him so much!!)


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2020)

Eclectic Al said:


> I agree with this. There is the world as one might like it to be, and there is the world as it is. In the world as it is there are problems arising from brute facts about how people behave, and those facts get people killed (terrorist victims, and terrorists themselves). There comes a point where you have to acknowledge the world as it is, and try and make that work better - not pretend that it can be perfect.


I watched a reality program last night about a murder in Wales. The 45 year old woman was brutally killed in a knife attack by a man she met on a dating site. They tracked him down because he kept taunting her mother via his mobile phone. The evidence was overwhelming and he was convicted of the murder. The writing at the end of the program said this 47 year old murderer got 18 years for first degree murder. He also had a string of serious prior convictions, most involving assault against women and others. We were beyond appalled by the leniency of that sentence and the fact that he was still free in the community after the string of previous serious offences.

As you sew, so shall you reap.


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

I said this before but I will reiterate...These people are TERRIBLE ingrates at best...No amount of excuse is a fig leaf big enough to cover their psychopathy...


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2020)

Flamme said:


> I said this before but I will reiterate...These people are TERRIBLE ingrates at best...No amount of excuse is a fig leaf big enough to cover their psychopathy...


But we live in the era of victimhood; excuse-making is the major characteristic of that. The pendulum _will_ swing back and people will eventually get the punishment that fits the crime.


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