# Schubert Songs and Liszt



## Andrei

Liszt transcribed all of Schubert's songs for piano only. I prefer those transcriptions to the original songs. I think this is partly because the piano and human voice do not gel perfectly, and partly the engineering / mastering often does not get the balance right. Does anyone else prefer the transcriptions?


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## moody

Andrei said:


> Liszt transcribed all of Schubert's songs for piano only. I prefer those transcriptions to the original songs. I think this is partly because the piano and human voice do not gel perfectly, and partly the engineering / mastering often does not get the balance right. Does anyone else prefer the transcriptions?


I certainly hope that nobody does. Your comment about the voice and the piano not "gelling" is a comment that I have never,ever come across and belies the thousands of recitals given every year. I wonder what Schubert,Schumann,Wolf and Pfitzner would have said to you.


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## Art Rock

Good lord, absolutely not.


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## Schumann

Schubert's songs are amongst my most beloved piano/voice works a composer could ever write for. So NO!! I reject your words very much!


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## Ukko

Liszt transcribed _all_ of Schubert's songs? If that were true, his opera would be much larger.

I doubt that there is a 'gelling' problem with voice + piano, but I don't much like Lieder, by Schubert or anyone else. The sense of the message is too important, and I don't understand German. Liszt makes the music all the message there is, and some of it is very good music.


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## moody

Hilltroll72 said:


> Liszt transcribed _all_ of Schubert's songs? If that were true, his opera would be much larger.
> 
> I doubt that there is a 'gelling' problem with voice + piano, but I don't much like Lieder, by Schubert or anyone else. The sense of the message is too important, and I don't understand German. Liszt makes the music all the message there is, and some of it is very good music.


What does your first line mean--or am I being dumb ?

It's the misuse of "transcribed" isn't it !


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## Ukko

moody said:


> What does your first line mean--or am I being dumb ?
> 
> It's the misuse of "transcribed" isn't it !


Liszt did not transcribe anywhere near all of Schubert's songs.  The 'transcribed' is OK, according to the weight of opinion in the TC thread on the subject.


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## violadude

Nope, I love Schubert's lieder just how they are. The Liszt transcriptions are among his lesser works in my opinion.


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## Andrei

moody said:


> I certainly hope that nobody does. Your comment about the voice and the piano not "gelling" is a comment that I have never,ever come across and belies the thousands of recitals given every year. I wonder what Schubert,Schumann,Wolf and Pfitzner would have said to you.


'Thousands of recitals'! I guess they must be more popular than any other songs.

Transcriptions are done all the time. I think Schubert would have been flattered to find his music had a wider audience and I think Schumann - as with many pianists - would welcome them. They stand on their own merit: and it would not matter what Liszt or, say, Leslie Howard would say to you.

For anyone who has not heard the transcriptions I recommend Ständchen performed by Lisa de la Salla.


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## moody

Andrei said:


> 'Thousands of recitals'! I guess they must be more popular than any other songs.
> 
> Transcriptions are done all the time. I think Schubert would have been flattered to find his music had a wider audience and I think Schumann - as with many pianists - would welcome them. They stand on their own merit: and it would not matter what Liszt or, say, Leslie Howard would say to you.
> 
> For anyone who has not heard the transcriptions I recommend Ständchen performed by Lisa de la Salla.


I suggest that you seem to have misunderstood my comments. The "thousands of recitals" did not mention Schubert in particular as I was referring to recitals in general.
Whence comes your assertion that Liszt transcribed all of Schubert's lieder ? Perhaps you would enlighten us on exactly how many.
I don't need instruction in Liszt's music or in regard to transcriptions thanks all the same,I have shelves of Liszt recordings.
I don't know what Liszt would say ,but as he made the transcriptions I'm sure he'd be all for them.
Incidentally Liszt wrote lieder and songs for piano accompaniment himself.
My comment regarding the various lieder composers relates to your "gelling" remark.would they agree--I doubt it.
Schumann certainly would not have welcomed the transcriptions as he disparaged the Liszt/Wagner school.


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## DavidA

Schubert's lieder are truly wondrous - he was the greatest master of that genre. Liszt's transcriptions are something completely separate as are his operatic transcriptions, etc.. I don't think Liszt meant us to prefer them to the original - just be entertained by them.


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## Volve

As a singer in love with Schubert's lieder, your comment about the voice and piano "not gelling" seems to be a bit pretentious. Even though I adore Liszt's transcriptions of some of those lieders, they are in no way superior to the originals. It might be your opinion that voice and piano aren't a good combination, maybe it hurts your ears in some way, but those two instruments are undeniably a wonderful match (as are most instruments, violas not included). Feel free to have your opinions and share them as you will, but don't state them as facts. Now I'm off to sing lieders from Schwanengesang, accompanied by a piano, have a good day


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## Mandryka

You may find that 19th century songs go better with a 19th century piano, one of my favourite Schubert recordings is Schreier's Müllerin with Steven Zehr playing fortepiano. There's also Staier playing fp for Prégardien.

If you don't like voice and piano together, and you've not given up on Schubert lieder, then maybe try Schreier's recording of Müllerin with Konrad Ragossnig on guitar, or Ben Zander's orchestration of Winterreise.

I've got a certain sympathy with what you say about Schubert/Liszt, but truth is I think those transcriptions are best performed in a way which doesn't try to make them sound like Schubert songs without words. That's the strength of Simone Pedroni's performances of them. Sofronitsky's too. There's a performance by Sv. Richter of Liszt's transcription of Erlkönig which I think is better than the song, musically.

Also I think it's a mistake to limit yourself to the Liszt transcriptions. I enjoyed Antti Siirala's Cd with transcriptions of songs by Godowsky.









Who else made transcriptions of Schubert songs? Kurtag? Busoni?


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## ccravens

I happen to like the original songs AND the Liszt transcriptions.


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## Janspe

I absolutely love the Liszt transcriptions. But that doesn't mean that I'd prefer them to the originals in any way - Schubert's songs are such great works that any attempted transcriptions can only transfer the melody of the song, not much else. I like to think the Liszt transcriptions as kind of musical postcards - you know the original, and the piano version brings good memories to mind.  And as a pianist, I'm eternally grateful to Liszt for giving me the chance to play my favourite Schubert songs!

Some of my favourite Liszt transcriptions include the whole Schwanengesang cycle, Der Müller und der Bach, Erlkönig, Gute Nacht...


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## ShropshireMoose

Surely anyone who loves music would enjoy both the songs and the transcriptions? As to which you love best, then that must depend upon who is performing them. Many years ago, I took the then newly released LP of Schubert-Liszt Songs played by Jorge Bolet, round to my piano teacher, who was then in his 80s and a great lover of lieder. He absolutely loved it, commenting, "He phrases those pieces a good deal better than many singers I've heard!"


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## peeyaj

*TRIVIA:*

Liszt did the transcriptions of Schubert's songs to spread their popularity on the public. He was one of the champions of Schubert's music in 19th century. Also, Schubert is the composer with the most Liszt transcriptions (more than 50, I think).

Yuja Wang when asked about Schubert's music:



> . I've just recorded his Gretchen am Spinnrade as transcribed by Liszt, a work I couldn't live without ever since I heard the recording of Elisabeth Schwarzkopf singing Gretchen. You can hear the inevitable rhythm of the spinning wheel - cold, unchanging - with the voice of Gretchen's anxious lost soul on top. Its genius lies in the heartbeat, running constantly on the left hand, except when it turns major: the moment where she is daydreaming about Faust.


Oh, well girl.. Schubert composed sonatas and shorter piano works too..

( I read somewhere that LvB and Schubert were his great idols.)


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## Ukko

I'm guessing that Kid Liszt didn't hear anything by Schubert while he was in Vienna, or during Schubert's lifetime. I'm wondering if Schumann's excavations were _directly_ responsible for Liszt's later knowledge.

Ships in the night. Although in the 1820s Liszt was still a dinghy.


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