# Barth said: When the angels play for God...



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Karl Barth was one of the most important 20th century theologians, probably the most important in the Reformed tradition. Anyway, I read (cannot verify) that he said something like, "When the angels play for God, they play Bach. But when they play for themselves, they play Mozart." 

Anyone know if this quote is really Barth? 

I suspect that when the angels play for God, they play Byzantine chant, and when they play for themselves, they play Langaard.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

The quote is mentioned on the wiki entry on Barth but a source is not given.

This quote gels with me, eg. I like Mozart's sacred works - eg. his _Coronation Mass _& esp. his_ Great Mass in C_ - but I can't stand J.S. Bach's choral things.

I'm just talking about my preferences here, trying not to put some kind of agenda to the whole thing. Having said that, they are not worlds apart, in his masses Mozart does kind of pay tribute to guys like J.S. Bach - eg. in the many contrapuntal passages - he is seen by a good deal of listeners to be the heir of the earlier Baroque composers, and for good reason (in terms of technique but not vibe, as far as I'm concerned, Mozart's vibe is totally different)...


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

Wikiquote (which appears to be less unreliable than other quotation sites) quotes Karl Barth as: "When the angels praise God in Heaven I am sure they play Bach. However, en famille they play Mozart, and then God the Lord is especially delighted to listen to them."

Time magazine cover story "Witness to an Ancient Truth" (20 April 1962)


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Jeremy Marchant said:


> Wikiquote (which appears to be less unreliable than other quotation sites) quotes Karl Barth as: "When the angels praise God in Heaven I am sure they play Bach. However, en famille they play Mozart, and then God the Lord is especially delighted to listen to them."


Yeah, that's pretty close to what He told me.


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

Heaven sounds boring as hell.


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## Guest (Mar 2, 2012)

regressivetransphobe said:


> Heaven sounds boring as hell.


Hahaha, very witty!:tiphat:

Anyway, all this shows is that Barth, in common with many people, didn't keep up with music. As Mozart and Bach had become demi-gods, as it were, by his time, he just used them, the two most commonly deified composers, to make his own witty remark.

And what about Beethoven, you ask? Beethoven would play his own music for God, and expect God to like it, too.

If Barth had kept up, he would have said that when the angels play for God, they play Cage, but when they play for themselves, they play Feldman. Yeah.

As for what God and the angels really listen to, well, it's likely that they follow along the lines of what the Irish hero Finn is said to have remarked about music. The story goes that Finn and his sons were sitting around the camp fire one night after a hard day's hunting. One son asks the group generally what they think is the most beautiful music in the world. Each son then chimes in, "the belling of a stag," "the clash of a spear against a shield," "the voice of your beloved in your ear." Then they look at Finn, who has been quiet. "Oh mighty Finn, what do you think is the most beautiful music in the world?"

"The music of what happens."


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Why don't they play God's music... Tannhäuser, perhaps some Die Meistersinger...


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

Actually it was from a letter written by Barth in 1956. It seems unlikely a theologian in his 70s would be so hip to modern music, especially the still relatively unknown Feldman, I suspect he rather referred to composers that had proved their enduring popularity over a number of years. Also, he wrote a short book about Mozart, he seems to have known something about him and didn't just pick a name for the sake of his witty remark.

Perhaps if he had really kept up he would have mentioned Holly and Presley but it is irrelevant as we all know what God really listens to:


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

some guy said:


> ...when the angels play for God, they play Cage, but when they play for themselves, they play Feldman. Yeah. "


Oh, yeah! ... and Apollo Bless You for saying it, too.

Yes! Five Angels in rotating shifts play "Piano and String Quartet" ~ ceaselessly.

The New literary Awareness declares it, Crippled Symmetry, and Coptic Light, "the music of the spheres."

Bach nutters abandon the music they formerly accepted as Godhead, along with the notion that the inception of Newtonian physics and the tick-tock intermeshed gearwheels of 19th century chronometers was the analogue for all is in place in the universe, and instead now embrace and revere Triadic Memories.

Well, a man can dream, can't he?


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## Guest (Mar 2, 2012)

PetrB said:


> ...now embrace and revere Triadic Memories.
> 
> Well, a man can dream, can't he?


Indeed!!

Though I must say, that Slayer idea is pretty attractive, too.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Couchie said:


> Why don't they play God's music... Tannhäuser, perhaps some Die Meistersinger...


Somehow, the very notion the deity is either an 18th century Saxon or a 19th century German is chilling and repellent.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

PetrB said:


> Somehow, the very notion the deity is either an 18th century Saxon or a 19th century German is chilling and repellent.


I have heard remarkably few notions of the deity that are not chilling and repellent. In most accounts God's wrath is rivalled only by his egomania. And yet he is creator of worlds of splendour. Which is why Wagner is almost _certainly_ God incarnate.


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

Poor God (well not really but anyway) always being dragged in to support mortals' opinions, whether it be justifying their matters of taste or justifying their killing sprees.

I would think that the point of the quote is that angels and people try to give God what they think he/she/they/it want. But what God particularly likes is to see the minions enjoying the music that they most enjoy. The devil, though, still has all the best tunes, damn her!


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

So in hell, when the demons play for Satan - I imagine hell is a republic actually, so they play for him whatever they darn well please, which is probably, well, Handel. 

But if Satan could have the kind of obedience God enjoys, he'd hear Penderecki.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Egomania and wrath = old testament. Gentleness, empathy, compassion = new testament.

After fathering a child the deity settled down and became tolerant, forgiving and compassionate, coincidentally similar to the dynamic curve of the punky and selfish young man who similarly changes after fathering a child.

Funny, if its Bach, The deity loves counterpoint: if its Wagner, the deity likes music with but the tiniest shred of a little imitation but hardly a scrap of real counterpoint: it also means the deity then likes a good grade B Hollywood style potboiler accompanied by pre-cinema era film music which mainly appeals most to a petite bourgeois sensibility. Must like popcorn, Jujubes, and Red Hots, too. Must be like us. Always thought the whole concept was an invention, maybe projecting an image of the more ideal side of man 

Not that I would ever deny that Wagner was a flaming musical genius, just that I think he had -- for the most part -- one of the cheesiest of aesthetic senses, and for 'The Ring' at least, a terrible sense of what a somewhat believabe and good libretto is. But is there another composer about whom people have such strong and clearly polarized opinions? Think not, and that says volumes.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

PetrB said:


> Egomania and wrath = old testament. Gentleness, empathy, compassion = new testament.
> 
> After fathering a child the deity settled down and became tolerant, forgiving and compassionate, coincidentally similar to the dynamic curve of the punky and selfish young man who similarly changes after fathering a child.
> 
> ...


What is your home address? Do you own a hack saw or should I pick one up on the way?


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

They'd play the Well Tempered Clavier and Parsifal.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

ADD: And I more than agree with leaving 'the deity' out of it all together. Whether it is the composer's music or 'where it came from' or to what or whom the composer attributes their talent of 'gift.'

Leave the deity / deities out of it.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Couchie said:


> Why don't they play God's music... Tannhäuser, perhaps some Die Meistersinger...


Couchie, I like you. A lot. 

Whatever else the angels are playing in heaven, I'm sure they play the final chorus from Tannhäuser. Apart from that... maybe Bach and Handel...


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2012)

D'uh!!


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Nah, God likes Bird, Dizzy, and Monk. Classical makes him sleepy.


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## jamescenns (May 10, 2019)

*Source of the Barth quotation:*



science said:


> Karl Barth was one of the most important 20th century theologians, probably the most important in the Reformed tradition. Anyway, I read (cannot verify) that he said something like, "When the angels play for God, they play Bach. But when they play for themselves, they play Mozart."
> 
> Anyone know if this quote is really Barth?
> 
> I suspect that when the angels play for God, they play Byzantine chant, and when they play for themselves, they play Langaard.


The quotation is from a brief biography/tribute that Barth wrote on Mozart, published by Eerdmans in 1956 and translated into English in 1986 (p.23)


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Jeremy Marchant said:


> Wikiquote (which appears to be less unreliable than other quotation sites) quotes Karl Barth as: "When the angels praise God in Heaven I am sure they play Bach. However, en famille they play Mozart, and then God the Lord is especially delighted to listen to them."
> 
> Time magazine cover story "Witness to an Ancient Truth" (20 April 1962)


 Its not like Karl Barth is the only one to know this. I've known this for yrs now, that Mozart is of the celestials. 
Possibly the most (= only) profound insight Barth had in his entire life.

The OP mentioned Langgaard. His music is like variations on themes by Sibelius.


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