# Alma Deutscher



## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

If anyone can get the BBC (BBC 1) there's a programme on now, Imagine, about Alma Deutscher the 12-year old British girl who composed her opera _Cinderella_ when she was nine, and the programme is covering the rehearsal of it in Vienna. Along with a profile of her.

A genuine prodigy. Her first opera at age 7....


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

There's already a guestbook; no need to bring this up in the main forum.


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2017)

Just looked for it. I guess I only have BBC America and it's not on there. Too bad because I am very interested.


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## St Matthew (Aug 26, 2017)

Not worth the time of day


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

St Matthew said:


> Not worth the time of day


Why is that? I'd be interested to know.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Portamento said:


> There's already a guestbook; no need to bring this up in the main forum.


Guestbook... Who cares, I thought it was worth a main post so I put it here. If you don't want to address the topic just don't answer.


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## Daniel Atkinson (Dec 31, 2016)

....wrong thread...


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## St Matthew (Aug 26, 2017)

eugeneonagain said:


> Why is that? I'd be interested to know.


Because she sucks, simple as that. Her "cute" childish charms are the only reason you know her name. She belongs on america's funniest home videos


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

St Matthew said:


> Because she sucks, simple as that. Her "cute" childish charms are the only reason you know her name. She belongs on america's funniest home videos


She's English. ............................................


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

eugeneonagain said:


> Why is that? I'd be interested to know.


One group considers her a talented kid who is being exploited for fame and financial return. The other group finds her a phenomenal artist who fully deserves her ever-increasing audience.

Then there's the issue of the style of music she writes and plays. Fact is that the music sounds like it comes from a circa 1800 sheet of music. There was much disagreement about this on the other thread.


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## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

Kind of fun to watch a bunch of adult men sling mud over a preteen girl's musical merits. I hope she doesn't know about this site.
Sorry if this post further derails your thread, Eugene; let me say, for the sake of relevance, that I too am very impressed by her accomplishments so far at her age. The rest of you, take it back to the guestbook please.....


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

The only thing that bothers me is that anyone with a degree, even a low level one, in music could write what she writes, but because she's young she's suddenly a "spokesperson" for a new era of music. That's how people treat her anyway, but it's not what she is. Nothing really to do with her, but when people fawn over "deep" statements made by kids who don't know any better it makes my skin crawl.


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## St Matthew (Aug 26, 2017)

Gordontrek said:


> Kind of fun to watch a bunch of adult men sling mud over the musical merits of a pre-teen girl's compositions. I hope she doesn't know about this site.


Criticism of trash deserves it's place. 
If she knows about this site, then perhaps that would be a good thing for her.

Nobody takes her seriously, this is 1st grade 'support your sisters child at a competition" stuff. Her in her present stage, has a very limited lifespan in the classical music industry. Pastiche only goes so far too


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I think it's great to see a little girl write this kind of music. But maybe it's even more interesting to noodle on the psychologies of people who are upset about it.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Perhaps when Alma starts writing "ambient electronic music," some of her blunt critics will be a little less crass and tactless. She's a gifted prodigy on both piano and violin, with outstanding Bach performances in Israel that can be found online, and her writing has attracted international attention because she's interested in story and beauty. 

As a youngster, she's still has a long way to go in her development; but she has a great work ethic and is dedicated and disciplined. What does it say about those who obvously have no real interest in her or her music, to begin with, and yet go out of their way to contemptuously trash her? There are already enough downers in the world and she isn't one of them. She's hurting no one and no one is obliged to hear her.


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## St Matthew (Aug 26, 2017)

You want opinions, you'll get opinions. I'm not dressing it up with a bowtie on top


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

We have mentioned this many times. Unfortunately the website is messed up and I can not access any of my posts between May 11, 2013 and August 26, 2017.

Our problem is not with Ms. Deutscher but with those who have elevated her to be some sort of savior of classical music.

During in that dark hole I had refereed to above I mentioned many of the prodigies that I have met through the orchestra that I am a member of who are just as talented as Ms. Deutscher.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I'm not sure why a discussion of Alma Deutscher's music needs to address people who may or may not like her music instead. Hardly to the point.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Please mods, make one topic about this.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

Ken, outside of this forum how many musicians do you personally know?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

arpeggio said:


> Ken, outside of this forum how many musicians do you personally know?


Again, how is that relevant to Alma Deutscher or her music?


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

violadude said:


> The only thing that bothers me is that anyone with a degree, even a low level one, in music could write what she writes...


I have no background in music so I have no sense of how difficult it is to write even relatively simple music. It may be true that many composition majors could have written Deutscher's works, but how many 9 or 10 year-olds could have written those works? Actually I'd love to know the answer (10000s, 1000s, 100s, 20, maybe 10?). My understanding is that she's fairly unusual in the ability she has at that age.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

mmsbls said:


> ...but how many 9 or 10 year-olds could have written those works? Actually I'd love to know the answer (10000s, 1000s, 100s, 20, maybe 10?). My understanding is that she's fairly unusual in the ability she has at that age.


"At age seven, she completed her first major composition, the opera _The Sweeper of Dreams_. Aged nine, she wrote a concerto for violin and orchestra, which she premiered in a 2015 performance.

"At the age of ten she completed her first full-length opera, _Cinderella_, which had its European premiere in Vienna on 29 December 2016 under the patronage of conductor Zubin Mehta, and in July 2017, at the age of 12, she premiered her first piano concerto, and performed it on the same evening as her full violin concerto."

Perhaps others of her age _could _write such music, but little Alma actually _does_. Maybe worthy of note in relation to mmsbls's post.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

mmsbls said:


> I have no background in music so I have no sense of how difficult it is to write even relatively simple music. It may be true that many composition majors could have written Deutscher's works, but how many 9 or 10 year-olds could have written those works? Actually I'd love to know the answer (10000s, 1000s, 100s, 20, maybe 10?). My understanding is that she's fairly unusual in the ability she has at that age.


Over the years through the orchestra that I am a member of I have personally met many young musicians about the age Ms. Deutscher who compose and/or perform music comparable to hers. I have also provided links to stories about other prodigy composers. I have mentioned this before but like I have stated I can not access these posts anymore.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

mmsbls said:


> I have no background in music so I have no sense of how difficult it is to write even relatively simple music. It may be true that many composition majors could have written Deutscher's works, but how many 9 or 10 year-olds could have written those works? Actually I'd love to know the answer (10000s, 1000s, 100s, 20, maybe 10?). My understanding is that she's fairly unusual in the ability she has at that age.


It's not as rare as you might think.


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2017)

If the point of this thread is to discuss the documentary, I would say that I gave up after about 20 minutes. Alan Yentob, the presenter, prefers to just point the camera and shoot, with little background information or analysis. Consequently, what the viewer gets is long takes watching Alma play, or sing, or sit thinking about writing, or direct chat with Yentob (for example her explaining the story in her version of Cinderella); we are invited to think what we will about her, but not, it seems to me, in any informed way. When we turned the camera to her father, and we were then shown the videos he had been making of Alma doing her stuff, I gave up.

Not watching it all may have been an error - perhaps all that I needed to know came in the rest of the film. But I'm not sure that a film about a precocious child able to write music that I don't want to listen to is worth persevering with. Not least because I'd rather not be forced to start being judgemental about her parents.

But then I'm not a fan of TV that insists on prying into the "real world" in this way.


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

arpeggio said:


> Over the years through the orchestra that I am a member of I have personally met many young musicians about the age Ms. Deutscher who compose and/or perform music comparable to her. I have also provided links to stories about other prodigy composers. I have mentioned this before but like I have stated I can not access these posts anymore.


Yeah, what is the deal I tried to look at some of my older posts as well and it only shows the last few weeks, I used to be able to search through all my posts. Mods any answers?

As for the OP, I think it's neat enough that she's into composing and when somebody first brought her to my attention I listened to some of her music but it's not that great. Perhaps when she's older she'll grow into her talent but right now it's just a novelty that she is so young. I'm not trying to downplay her prodigy, I mean if she can do this at her age now imagine what she'll be capable of in the future.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Previous threads:

http://www.talkclassical.com/22087-alma-deutscher.html

http://www.talkclassical.com/35048-have-you-heard-21st.html


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

I read an article about the documentary - was intrigued - and looked her up on YouTube. 

She obviously has a prodigious talent, and one would hope that as she matures, she would open herself up to more modern influences and write something that marks her style as her own, rather than as sounding like the music of 200-plus years ago. 

But I am disquieted by the way she speaks as well as writes and after reading the article I wonder if she is getting enough stimulation from outside the home - though like MacLeod I don't want to be judgemental, particularly as I was never fortunate enough to have children of my own. 

We don't have a TV currently, so it was nice to see someone's opinion of the documentary. 
Thanks, MacLeod. :tiphat:


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

arpeggio said:


> Over the years through the orchestra that I am a member of I have personally met many young musicians about the age Ms. Deutscher who compose and/or perform music comparable to hers. I have also provided links to stories about other prodigy composers. I have mentioned this before but like I have stated I can not access these posts anymore.





Fugue Meister said:


> Yeah, what is the deal I tried to look at some of my older posts as well and it only shows the last few weeks, I used to be able to search through all my posts. Mods any answers?


After the recent disc crash, we have had problems rebuilding the indexes that allow searching on the site. The posts are there and can be found using google. Art rock gave a couple. Here are some more

http://www.talkclassical.com/36317-violin-concerto-alma-deutcher.html

http://www.talkclassical.com/40523-modern-composers-composing-tonal-2.html#post965425

http://www.talkclassical.com/41711-top-5-post-1950-a-3.html#post1004401

We are aware of the problem and are trying to solve it.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

arpeggio said:


> Over the years through the orchestra that I am a member of I have personally met many young musicians about the age Ms. Deutscher who compose and/or perform music comparable to hers. I have also provided links to stories about other prodigy composers. I have mentioned this before but like I have stated I can not access these posts anymore.





violadude said:


> It's not as rare as you might think.


I realize that the exact number of 10 year-old children capable of composing what Deutscher has written cannot be known. I also realize that her early education likely separates her from others who might also have been able to compose similar works if they had had such an education. I'm trying to get a feel for how unusual she may be.

violadude: I suggested as many as 10,000s. If her ability is not as rare as I might think, are there hundreds of thousands or millions of 10 year-olds who can compose what she does? It's a bit hard for me to imagine people making such a big deal about something that so many children can do, but if so, there's something more than just remarkable about her PR (i.e. something very strange is going on here).

arpeggio: If you've personally seen many children who have _composed_ at a similar level, I would believe there's nothing much special about her. The people I asked had never seen any child compose at all. Did you work somewhere that intentionally sought out very young composers?

Basically, I don't believe she's another Mozart nor do I believe she's a run-of-the-mill mildly talented child. I'm just trying to get a sense of where on that spectrum she might lie.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

mmsbls said:


> arpeggio: If you've personally seen many children who have _composed_ at a similar level, I would believe there's nothing much special about her. The people I asked had never seen any child compose at all. Did you work somewhere that intentionally sought out very young composers?


Yes. I have mentioned this before but there is a problem with the website where I can not access the posts that I made between May, 2013 and August, 2017.

I will repeat it. I am a member of the McLean Symphony. Every spring we stage a young people's concert. We get a young person to be a soloist. Most of the time it is a high school student but sometime we find a child like Ms. Deutscher. Last year we found a seven year old female violinists. She was amazing.

In conjecture with the Northern Virginia Music Teachers Association we support a composition competition: http://nvmta.org/competitions-and-festivals/composition-competition/

We receive submissions from young people all ages from seven to seventeen. I have been a member of the orchestra for over thirty years. We have frequently performed music composed by children as young a Ms. Deutscher.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

arpeggio said:


> Yes. I have mentioned this before but there is a problem with the website where I can not access the posts that I made between May, 2013 and August, 2017.


Hopefully we will be able to fix that problem eventually. _If you are interested in finding old posts_, using Google is often quicker (for me at least). I put _deutscher arpeggio "McLean Symphony" site:talkclassical.com_ in the Google search window and found the post quickly. I think one also must have the number of posts displayed per page set to the default or it will be harder to find.



arpeggio said:


> In conjecture with the Northern Virginia Music Teachers Association we support a composition competition: http://nvmta.org/competitions-and-festivals/composition-competition/
> 
> We receive submissions from young people all ages from seven to seventeen. I have been a member of the orchestra for over thirty years. We have frequently performed music composed by children as young a Ms. Deutscher.


If the compositions you receive by children roughly 10 years-old are essentially at a similar level to Deutscher's, then I have to believe she is talented but none of us should know her.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

arpeggio said:


> I will repeat it. I am a member of the McLean Symphony. Every spring we stage a young people's concert. We get a young person to be a soloist. Most of the time it is a high school student but sometime we find a child like Ms. Deutscher. Last year we found a seven year old female violinists. She was amazing..


Really? A marvellous young violinist? How is that comparable? Has she written the entire orchestrations for her own violin concerto? Did you watch the documentary and see Deutscher singing and improvising complex harmonic ideas at the piano?


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

St Matthew said:


> Criticism of trash deserves it's place.
> If she knows about this site, then perhaps that would be a good thing for her.
> 
> Nobody takes her seriously, this is 1st grade 'support your sisters child at a competition" stuff. Her in her present stage, has a very limited lifespan in the classical music industry. Pastiche only goes so far too


What are you a child prodigy who never made it? About half the people (of whom I am _not_ one) on this forum think modern adult composers should be writing music not so far removed from this kind of music, but when a prodigious child does it it's pastiche trash?

Did you actually see this documentary or are you just venting your uninformed opinion? Sir Simon Rattle, who doesn't throw out praise willy-nilly, spoke about her level of talent and how impressive he found it. Considering how young she is there is no way you can predict what will happen to her. She is a child having a lot of fun with her talent and who knows which way it will develop.

There's something rather pernicious about an adult pouring bile on a the creative activities of a child.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

eugeneonagain said:


> There's something rather pernicious about an adult pouring bile on a the creative activities of a child.


Hear the man! One wonders just what psychological buttons are being pushed to bring forth such a torrent of ill-will and abuse, all because a child has a remarkable talent.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

eugeneonagain said:


> Really? A marvellous young violinist? How is that comparable? Has she written the entire orchestrations for her own violin concerto? Did you watch the documentary and see Deutscher singing and improvising complex harmonic ideas at the piano?


I have not seen that particular documentary but people have described it so I have a good idea what it is like.

Ms. Deutscher is a very talented young lady.

No matter how many prodigies that I mention that I know about or have met it is never enough. I am not going to rummage through the archives of the McLean Symphony so I could provide everyone here with a list of all of the composers whom we have performed whose music is comparable to Ms. Deutscher. If my recollections and experiences are inadequate, you win.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

arpeggio said:


> I have not seen that particular documentary but people have described it so I have a good idea what it is like.
> 
> Ms. Deutscher is a very talented young lady.
> 
> No matter how many prodigies that I mention that I know about or have met it is never enough. I am not going to rummage through the archives of the McLean Symphony so I could provide everyone here with a list of all of the composers whom we have performed whose music is comparable to Ms. Deutscher. If my recollections and experiences are inadequate, you win.


It's not a competition, and certainly not one that I initiated nor seek to 'win'. However, I think a great many people know youths with prodigious musical talent. I've known some too. It's not about that.

Are these composers you mentioned kids with ages in single digits who orchestrate their own works and write music from their own initiative? If you've listened to what Deutscher has said (a kid remember) it's not that she isn't aware of other music, or modern music and the criticism around her choice of musical style. I think that's a little bit more than just some kid writing pastiche music.

It's not your recollections and experiences that are inadequate, but your argument and complaint.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

Ingélou said:


> I read an article about the documentary - was intrigued - and looked her up on YouTube.
> 
> She obviously has a prodigious talent, and one would hope that as she matures, she would open herself up to more modern influences and write something that marks her style as her own, rather than as sounding like the music of 200-plus years ago.
> 
> ...


What happens if she decides she hates modern influences and decides to junk them and write what she wants to.


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## classixfan (Aug 22, 2017)

I caught this halfway and I have to say that I felt a bit uncomfortable with the subtle mention of Mozart and his sister and how she is getting her works played in big venues with big names at such a young age. So I didn't watch the rest. I had never heard of her before but she does come across as a phenomenonal talent. I only wish her good luck in her career.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

eugeneonagain said:


> If anyone can get the BBC (BBC 1) there's a programme on now, Imagine, about Alma Deutscher the 12-year old British girl who composed her opera _Cinderella_ when she was nine, and the programme is covering the rehearsal of it in Vienna. Along with a profile of her.
> 
> A genuine prodigy. Her first opera at age 7....


Thanks! She's one of my favorite living composers, a very talented one. She makes contemporary music more relevant to me and many listeners.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

ArtMusic said:


> Thanks! She's one of my favorite living composers, a very talented one. She makes contemporary music more relevant to me and many listeners.


I can't really tell if this is ironic.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

eugeneonagain said:


> I can't really tell if this is ironic.


Nope, he's in 100%.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

eugeneonagain said:


> I can't really tell if this is ironic.


There is a thread on Deutscher, started by ArtMusic, in the composer's guestbook forum. This one is virtually identical in the support and criticism offered. Deja vu all over again. Sigh.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

EdwardBast said:


> There is a thread on Deutscher, started by ArtMusic, in the composer's guestbook forum. This one is virtually identical in the support and criticism offered. Deja vu all over again. Sigh.


It's getting rather tedious to see people droning on about how this thread (and quite a few other threads) have similar analogues started in the past and then some twit posts a list of links as an answer.

Was there also a world-weary 'sighing' reply like yours above in that thread?

I was merely posting about the showing of a documentary last night, not starting an appreciation thread. That's why it wasn't in 'guest books' (whatever that concept is supposed to mean anyway). Honestly, I am not a fan or a follower of hers, but just an interested viewer. I don't watch these things with my hyper-critical head on taking pot-shots at the latest touted child prodigy. Personally I think she's an interesting talent and it's always nice to see kids pursuing art-music.

You can't do right some times.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Wake me up when she writes a piece with similar depth as the Prokofiev Violin Sonata No. 1.

Until then, this prolific poster slumbers.....


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

eugeneonagain said:


> It's getting rather tedious to see people droning on about how this thread (and quite a few other threads) have similar analogues started in the past and then some twit posts a list of links as an answer.
> 
> Was there also a world-weary 'sighing' reply like yours above in that thread?
> 
> ...


And the posters who do not like her music have to go to each and every thread on her and bad mouth. But hate it if you say anything bad about a composer they like just once.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

hpowders said:


> Wake me up when she writes a piece with similar depth as the Prokofiev Violin Sonata No. 1.
> 
> Until then, this prolific poster slumbers.....


What a foolish thing to say. Comparing her to a dead composer who had 60+ years to develop. How old was he when he wrote the sonata, about 50?

Please stay asleep.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

eugeneonagain said:


> What a foolish thing to say. Comparing her to a dead composer who had 60+ years to develop. How old was he when he wrote the sonata, about 50?
> 
> Please stay asleep.


And the posters who hate or here music did you write anything like this when you were just 12 years old if you did please share it with us?


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## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> And the posters who do not like her music have to go to each and every thread on her and bad mouth. But hate it if you say anything bad about a composer they like just once.


This is an exaggeration: Only one person in this thread unequivocally badmouthed her, and they weren't even a part of this forum when the previous threads were active. As for your second sentence: first of all it often wasn't 'just once,' and the 'bad mouthing' was often far more malignant. Also, at least no one else in this thread actually created polls with the purpose of bad mouthing those they don't like.



Johnnie Burgess said:


> And the posters who hate or here music did you write anything like this when you were just 12 years old if you did please share it with us?


What does this have to do with anything?


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

eugeneonagain said:


> It's not your recollections and experiences that are inadequate, but your argument and complaint.


Give me a break. I have never said she was a bad musician or a bad composer. In the post you cited I acknowledged that she is a very talented young lady.

The point I have been trying to make is that I know of and have met many young composers who are just as good as she is.

If that is an argument and complaint, I give up.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

eugeneonagain said:


> What are you a child prodigy who never made it? About half the people (of whom I am _not_ one) on this forum think modern adult composers should be writing music not so far removed from this kind of music, but when a prodigious child does it it's pastiche trash?
> 
> Did you actually see this documentary or are you just venting your uninformed opinion? Sir Simon Rattle, who doesn't throw out praise willy-nilly, spoke about her level of talent and how impressive he found it. Considering how young she is there is no way you can predict what will happen to her. She is a child having a lot of fun with her talent and who knows which way it will develop.
> 
> There's something rather pernicious about an adult pouring bile on a the creative activities of a child.


As I recall past discussions of her, the most negativity centers on the fact that she composes in an "out-of-date" style and is being widely enjoyed either because of it or in spite of it. I had a long and rather acrimonious - well, vigorous, anyway - debate with some guy (his actual forum name, not a generic descriptor) about whether it's legitimate for a serious composer to do that, whether a modern person who identifies with the aesthetics of an earlier time is really a modern person at all or just an imitator of a sensibility not her own, and whether contemporary music written in - or approximating, or drawing upon - an older style should be called contemporary music at all. These are interesting questions, I think.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> What happens if she decides she hates modern influences and decides to junk them and write what she wants to.


Then it's probable that she won't be remembered much after her day - just as if someone wrote novels in the style of Dickens or poetry in the style of Pope*. It would be interesting and might even sell well, but it would be a sport or curiosity rather than joining the Great Canon of English Literature. 

I am a person of traditional tastes myself, but the arts have to develop or die - in my opinion.

I didn't actually like the concerto on the YouTube video that I listened to. It had good manners but not a lot of spirit.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
* Something of the sort happened with the tragic Thomas Chatterton, who wrote poetry in a pseudo-medieval style. Critics agree that his work has merit, and so do I - but it isn't much read and had no influence on what came after...


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> As I recall past discussions of her, *the most negativity centers on the fact that she composes in an "out-of-date" style and is being widely enjoyed* either because of it or in spite of it. I had a long and rather acrimonious - well, vigorous, anyway - debate with some guy (his actual forum name, not a generic descriptor) about whether it's legitimate for a serious composer to do that, whether a modern person who identifies with the aesthetics of an earlier time is really a modern person at all or just an imitator of a sensibility not her own, and whether contemporary music written in - or approximating, or drawing upon - an older style should be called contemporary music at all. These are interesting questions, I think.


I think that will get the critics sharpening their knives:

She writes in an out of date style? Does her music actually have tunes rather than the tuneless racket that passes for 'music' in some modern composers? Preposterous!

And do people actually enjoy listening to it rather than gritting their teeth all the way through it? Obviously this child needs censure!


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## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

DavidA said:


> I think that will get the critics sharpening their knives:
> 
> She writes in an out of date style? Does her music actually have tunes rather than the tuneless racket that passes for 'music' in some modern composers? Preposterous!
> 
> And do people actually enjoy listening to it rather than gritting their teeth all the way through it? Obviously this child needs censure!


Problem is, I can't take this post seriously when in another thread you called a John Adams work (who is very mild as far as modernism goes) a 'simply awful work,' giving the reason that it is 'tuneless tripe.' Even less seriously when, as you mentioned, the audience loved it and someone on TC (who knows a thing or two) then said they loved the work in response: and you still continue. "If this is a great work then oh boy": Oh boy what? Oh boy everyone who likes it (many people) have poor taste? I'd suggest "oh boy, perhaps I need to open my mind a little." "Tuneless racket," as if "tunes" are required for music to be good, is a very telling choice of words.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Lisztian said:


> Problem is, I can't take this post seriously when in another thread you called a John Adams work (who is very mild as far as modernism goes) a 'simply awful work,' giving the reason that it is 'tuneless tripe.' Even less seriously when, as you mentioned, the audience loved it and someone on TC (who knows a thing or two) then said they loved the work in response: and you still continue. "If this is a great work then oh boy": Oh boy what? Oh boy everyone who likes it (many people) have poor taste? I'd suggest "oh boy, perhaps I need to open my mind a little." "Tuneless racket," as if "tunes" are required for music to be good, is a very telling choice of words.


I have my tastes in music. Frankly Adams is not one of them. No matter what the learned members of TC say I did not enjoy the piece played at the Proms the other night. 
However, I'm just reacting to the negative press about the young girls' music. I cannot see what on earth my comments on a piece by Adams have too do with the present discussion. She is a different composer!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

n February 2017, Deutscher herself made a statement about her style, her love of melody and her musical aesthetics, in a message to a press conference of the Carinthian Summer Music Festival in Austria. She explained that some people have expressed to her the view that one should not compose beautiful melodies in the 21st century, but that music must reflect the complexity and ugliness of the modern world. "But I think that these people just got a little bit confused. If the world is so ugly, then what's the point of making it even uglier with ugly music?"

Yes?


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## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

DavidA said:


> I have my tastes in music. Frankly Adams is not one of them. I'm just reacting to the press about our young girls' music. I cannot see what on earth my comments on a piece by Adams have too do with the present discussion. She is a different composer!


Good. I have my tastes in music also, and so do many others. Most people in this thread have been civil in stating their opinions, without pulling out the 'tuneless tripe' card. The Woodduck quote that you cited simply referred to a interesting discussion he had about this topic; but you had no come in and change the tone of the thread with your ultra sarcastic (ill-informed at that) post ridiculing modern music.


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## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

DavidA said:


> "But I think that these people just got a little bit confused. If the world is so ugly, then what's the point of making it even uglier with ugly music?"
> 
> Yes?


Surely you can't be citing that quote as if it's a good point. You don't see anything wrong with it?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Lisztian said:


> Good. I have my tastes in music also, and so do many others. Most people in this thread have been civil in stating their opinions, without pulling out the 'tuneless tripe' card. The Woodduck quote that you cited simply referred to a interesting discussion he had about this topic; but you had no come in and change the tone of the thread with your ultra sarcastic (ill-informed at that) post ridiculing modern music.


Sorry, I thought we were discussing Alma Deutsche's music in this thread not John Adams or my views on modern music in general. I was just reacting to the nonsense propagated by certain members of the critical press that modern music should necessarily be ugly to reflect life today. Life was pretty ugly at other times in the world but composers saw it as their job to add beauty.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

hpowders said:


> Wake me up when she writes a piece with similar depth as the Prokofiev Violin Sonata No. 1.
> 
> Until then, this prolific poster slumbers.....


Well she's got a few years yet so have a good sleep!


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## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Sorry, I thought we were discussing Alma Deutsche's music in this thread not John Adams or my views on modern music in general. I was just reacting to the nonsense propagated by certain members of the critical press that modern music should necessarily be ugly to reflect life today. Life was pretty ugly at other times in the world but composers saw it as their job to add beauty.


I completely agree with you: that idea about modern music 'needing' to be 'ugly' is nonsense. I also think that quote by Alma is nonsense.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Lisztian said:


> Surely you can't be citing that quote as if it's a good point. You don't see anything wrong with it?


Answer her point then!

Are you the sort of person who would welcome an ugly building opposite your house because it reflects life?


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## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Answer her point then!
> 
> Are you the sort of person who would welcome an ugly building opposite your house because it reflects life?


I am realizing I may have mis-remembered her quote/context of it, in reading the context your post puts it in (I can't listen to the original video atm because I'm dealing with ear problems). My apologies: the way I'm now reading it I don't have a problem with.

As for your question, opposite my house? Probably: but my rebuttal was against the suggestion that modern music is ugly a majority of the time, a rebuttal I now realize wasn't relevant to what she said (unless I am indeed remembering correctly).


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

As I understand it, music composed in the last fifty years shows *a variety* of styles - some even 'beautiful' - but in general the works reflect *something *of the age we are living in. In my opinion, music, like any other art, needs to 'say something' for it to be important, whether it appeals to me aesthetically or not.

Alma Deutscher's case makes me reflect on prodigies in general. Some went on to develop, like Mozart - and others did not, and as they came to adulthood, they went out of fashion or their works were seen as pedestrian.

It might well be that Alma Deutscher has a talent that will persist into adult life - at present, her work seems a bit *run-of-the-mill* to me, perhaps because she isn't being challenged. Well and good - one can't disturb the happiness of a child, and I wouldn't wish angst on anyone. But I do think that even if she goes on composing in this traditional style, *something* of the modern world of music needs to rub off on her, or *something* of the conflicts of human life, or her music will go on lacking grit and individuality.

The question I asked myself, when I listened to her concerto, was 'would I rate this highly if it were written by a person of mature age'? And my answer is, no - I admire the child's cleverness, and that is all.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Ingélou said:


> As I understand it, music composed in the last fifty years shows *a variety* of styles - some even 'beautiful' - but in general the works reflect *something *of the age we are living in. In my opinion, music, like any other art, needs to 'say something' for it to be important, whether it appeals to me aesthetically or not.
> 
> Alma Deutscher's case makes me reflect on prodigies in general. Some went on to develop, like Mozart - and others did not, and as they came to adulthood, they went out of fashion or their works were seen as pedestrian.
> 
> ...


I think it is the same with Mozart's early works - they astonish you that a kid could write them but they are certainly not remarkable in themselves. I just hope a sycophantic public (in addition to cynical critics) don't spoil this kid and her undoubted talent.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

DavidA said:


> I think it is the same with Mozart's early works - they astonish you that a kid could write them but they are certainly not remarkable in themselves. I just hope a* sycophantic public* (in addition to *cynical critics*) don't spoil this kid and her undoubted talent.


Scylla and Charybdis! 
I don't know enough about Mozart's juvenilia to comment on your first point.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> And the posters who do not like her music have to go to each and every thread on her and bad mouth. But hate it if you say anything bad about a composer they like just once.


Put forth a memorable piece of music she composed, and I will bow before ye....

until then....call me an extreme skeptic.

There are a lot of 8 year old "geniuses" appearing on America's Got Talent, playing piano; singing, etc. So what? Where are the ones from 10-15 years ago who were flaunted as geniuses?


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

eugeneonagain said:


> It's getting rather tedious to see people droning on about how this thread (and quite a few other threads) have similar analogues started in the past and then some twit posts a list of links as an answer.
> 
> Was there also a world-weary 'sighing' reply like yours above in that thread?
> 
> ...


That's how the other one started too.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

hpowders said:


> Put forth a memorable piece of music she composed, and I will bow before ye....
> 
> until then....call me an extreme skeptic.
> 
> There are a lot of 8 year old "geniuses" appearing on America's Got Talent, playing piano; singing, etc. So what? Where are the ones from 10-15 years ago who were flaunted as geniuses?


These are not the same. I think this has been repeated about a dozen times. Some kid playing the violin or piano well is not analogous with a child choosing to compose at the age of 6, using the rules of harmony properly and instinctively and orchestrating their own works. Working on paper too.

She rejects the Mozart comparison, but let's just look at it a moment. She is not the daughter of known musicians and certainly not parents who, like those of Mozart and similar children, worked their kids for hours on end in formal composition and performance. That's the real price of 'prodigy'. Let's remember that when Mozart wrote his initial large-scale works as a child it was his father writing these down. Mozart was 14 before he wrote anything of note. She's not there yet.
I don't think it's a coincidence that she is working in the galant/classical style. I think it is very conducive to the development of child musicians. So many 'prodigies' seem to have emerged during the dominance of this music; not so many during other eras. Worth considering.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

MacLeod said:


> If the point of this thread is to discuss the documentary, I would say that I gave up after about 20 minutes. Alan Yentob, the presenter, prefers to just point the camera and shoot, with little background information or analysis. Consequently, what the viewer gets is long takes watching Alma play, or sing, or sit thinking about writing, or direct chat with Yentob (for example her explaining the story in her version of Cinderella); we are invited to think what we will about her, but not, it seems to me, in any informed way. When we turned the camera to her father, and we were then shown the videos he had been making of Alma doing her stuff, I gave up.
> 
> Not watching it all may have been an error - perhaps all that I needed to know came in the rest of the film. But I'm not sure that a film about a precocious child able to write music that I don't want to listen to is worth persevering with. Not least because I'd rather not be forced to start being judgemental about her parents.


I've just watched the programme, and initially it was just as you describe here. Although it did pretty much remain a "puff piece", it ended up (I think) shedding quite a bit of light on Alma as a person rather than merely a prodigy. I don't know if there was any significance to the fact that her father's contributions to the documentary were to do with her musical talents, whereas her mother spoke at length (later in the programme) about Alma's inner life; but anyway, what the mother said was interesting to me. Clearly Alma has a very strong imagination - she has an imaginary world filled with various musical and aristocratic characters - and this feeds directly into her music, to the extent that she even said she "stole" melodies from a fictional composer named Antonin. It wasn't clear how aware she is of modern music - or much else, to be honest, as the only non-music-related clips of her had her playing in the garden with her younger sister - but it seems to me (and, I think, this is a very important fact) that her musical interests are very tied up with this fantasy world. Presumably once she hits the teenage years this will start to fall by the wayside, and she seems to have enough talent and intelligence that she could end up producing significant work in a more contemporary vein on more mature themes. (From what we saw and heard of _Cinderella_, it strikes me as more than just "juvenilia", and its main "problem" is simply that it seems old-fashioned)

I imagine a more critical documentary could have brought in a couple of child psychologists and had a field day "diagnosing" her. But she struck me as a lot more interesting than many 11-year-old girls (I have an interesting 11-year-old girl myself!), and certainly a hell of a lot more personable than, well, than many people here...

Interesting, too, that she said she didn't want to be compared with Mozart (or "old men with beards") - the portrait on the wall by her piano was of a Mozart, but it was Nannerl.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

hpowders said:


> *Put forth a memorable piece of music she composed, and I will bow before ye....
> 
> until then....call me an extreme skeptic.*
> 
> There are a lot of 8 year old "geniuses" appearing on America's Got Talent, playing piano; singing, etc. So what? Where are the ones from 10-15 years ago who were flaunted as geniuses?


Come on. She's just a kid. What do you expect? Beethoven was a bit older when he wrote the ninth! :lol:

What concerns me more is the inordinate fuss that is being made about her. Playing her opera to adoring adults. Let her mature first I say! Too much too soon can be a bad thing.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

It's a red herring anyway all this comparison with Mozart and demands for greatness. A composer like Jean Francaix was a child prodigy (started composing at six and was Nadia Boulanger's favourite student), but he is not in the blessed circle of 'the greats'. Is this a problem? No, it isn't. Was he any less of a composer? No, he wasn't.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

eugeneonagain said:


> It's a red herring anyway all this comparison with Mozart and demands for greatness. A composer like Jean Francaix was a child prodigy (started composing at six and was Nadia Boulanger's favourite student), but he is not in the blessed circle of 'the greats'. Is this a problem? No, it isn't. Was he any less of a composer? No, he wasn't.


You have to see how she develops. Let's face it Saint-Saens was a fantastic prodigy but we wouldn't name him with the 'greats'


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

DavidA said:


> You have to see how she develops. Let's face it Saint-Saens was a fantastic prodigy but we wouldn't name him with the 'greats'


Have you actually read any of my other posts in this thread (which I started)? This is precisely what I am arguing - not least in the post you just quoted!


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## manyene (Feb 7, 2015)

I can't think of any child prodigy who produced a truly revolutionary/ground-breaking piece of music at the age of 11. Certainly not Mozart. Expecting Alma to do so is just mistaken, and it is unkind to dismiss her because she hasn't achieved it yet. She will get there, with luck, and will find her own style. Give her time and marvel at her talent.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

eugeneonagain said:


> I don't think it's a coincidence that she is working in the galant/classical style. I think it is very conducive to the development of child musicians. So many 'prodigies' seem to have emerged during the dominance of this music; not so many during other eras. Worth considering.


It seems to me too to be an excellent place to begin. It requires a clear grasp of harmony and exposes any weaknesses in one's grip on basic formal principles. We shouldn't get hung up on whether her music sounds like this or that, but just appreciate the grasp her young mind has on fundamentals which will stand her in good stead regardless of the direction her music takes later on.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

eugeneonagain said:


> Have you actually read any of my other posts in this thread (which I started)? This is precisely what I am arguing - not least in the post you just quoted!


Exactly! We are agreed!


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## Anankasmo (Jun 23, 2017)

DavidA said:


> You have to see how she develops. Let's face it Saint-Saens was a fantastic prodigy but we wouldn't name him with the 'greats'


Not to start a war but Saint-Saëns is listed in many lists as a 20th something place composers putting him in the same line of genius as e.g Rachmaninoff, Bartok, Sibelius etc. He is probably after Debussy the most popular (in terms of the broader public) French composer. Furthermore he has quite a lot of masterpieces attributed to him putting him well above one-hit-wonders such as Bruch, Kreisler, Paganini, Orff, Bizet, etc....


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## Guest (Sep 7, 2017)

Please merge this thread with the corresponding thread within the proper subforum.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

nathanb said:


> Please merge this thread with the corresponding thread within the proper subforum.


No, don't. It's a separate thread about a same/similar topic. There is no "proper subforum" or "corresponding thread". Its legitimate place is here, where I started it. Perhaps this is now clear to you and anyone else making this highly irritating suggestion?

Or maybe we can merge together all the Bruckner threads into one enormous mega-thread?


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## premont (May 7, 2015)




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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Anankasmo said:


> Not to start a war but Saint-Saëns is listed in many lists as a 20th something place composers putting him in the same line of genius as e.g Rachmaninoff, Bartok, Sibelius etc. He is probably after Debussy the most popular (in terms of the broader public) French composer. Furthermore he has quite a lot of masterpieces attributed to him putting him well above one-hit-wonders such as Bruch, Kreisler, Paganini, Orff, *Bizet*, etc....


Just saying by 'greats' I meant the very greatest - i.e. Mozart, Bach, Beethoven.......

Also the fact that Bizet was only a 'one hit wonder' as his untimely death robbed us of more operas after Carmen.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Anankasmo said:


> Not to start a war but Saint-Saëns is listed in many lists as a 20th something place composers putting him in the same line of genius as e.g Rachmaninoff, Bartok, Sibelius etc. He is probably after Debussy the most popular (in terms of the broader public) French composer. Furthermore he has quite a lot of masterpieces attributed to him putting him well above one-hit-wonders such as Bruch, Kreisler, Paganini, Orff, Bizet, etc....


Saint-Saëns composed quite a lot of masterpieces? That is news to me...

I think you over rate him a little, but that said still I think he composed a lot of sturdy works. If Deutscher turns out comparable to Saint-Saëns in stature I would say she had a pretty successful career.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Just saying by 'greats' I meant the very greatest - i.e. Mozart, Bach, Beethoven.......
> 
> Also the fact that Bizet was only a 'one hit wonder' as his untimely death robbed us of more operas after Carmen.


I don't feel robbed, not having much affection for his 'one hit wonder'. I prefer Bizet's Symphony in C although I could easily do without that work also. Be gone, Bizet.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

tdc said:


> Saint-Saëns composed quite a lot of masterpieces? That is news to me...


Well, we have his Organ Symphony, Piano Concerto no. 2 and Carnival of the animals - maybe a couple more. I guess that doesn't add up to quite a lot of masterpieces. However, a strong Saint-Saens enthusiast would likely disagree.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

I suppose the fact that we remember Saint-Saens' name 90-odd years after his death, and that some of his works are in the regular concert repertoire, is enough.

To be a successful composer one's name doesn't necessarily have to be Mozart or Beethoven, nor is a Viennese passport a requirement.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

manyene said:


> I can't think of any child prodigy who produced a truly revolutionary/ground-breaking piece of music at the age of 11. Certainly not Mozart. Expecting Alma to do so is just mistaken, and it is unkind to dismiss her because she hasn't achieved it yet. She will get there, with luck, and will find her own style. Give her time and marvel at her talent.


What people want to hear is not so much something revolutionary and ground-breaking as something that is interesting and enjoyable more than as a mere oddity, and while the works of the child Mozart were hardly flawless they were still inspired and brilliant in their limited way, which I unfortunately don't think can be said of anything I've heard by Alma Deutscher; still what she's to become is not clear.


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## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)




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## Anankasmo (Jun 23, 2017)

tdc said:


> Saint-Saëns composed quite a lot of masterpieces? That is news to me...
> 
> I think you over rate him a little, but that said still I think he composed a lot of sturdy works. If Deutscher turns out comparable to Saint-Saëns in stature I would say she had a pretty successful career.


Seems like a Typical comment of someone who only sees French music as impressionistic. But there was way more going on in Frances musical scene than just Ravel and Debussy..... True the french romantic composers are no match for their German pendant but still......
Masterworks: Organ symphony, Piano Concertos 1,3,4,5, Violin Concerto 3, Cello Concerto 1, Introduction and Rondo Cappricoso, Havanaise, Allegro Appasionato, Carnival of the Animals (if only for the Swan and Aquarium), Requiem, La Lyre et la Harpe, Samson et Dalila, Henry VIII, Tarantelle, Phaeton, Danse Macabre, Oratorio de Noel, La foi, Cello Sonata 1, Violin Sonata 1, Cello Suite, The woodwind sonatas, His piano trios and Piano quartets, string quartet and several songs as well as some small piano pieces.....

Some of these works may be not in the canon or repertoire but are still masterpieces.
Honestly I do not understand why S-S doesnt have the place he deserves alongside the great versatile composers of the 1830s (Brahms, Tschaikowski, Dvorak) considering Brahms was probably even more conservative than him.


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## Anankasmo (Jun 23, 2017)

But here on this forum besides German composers and a franatic love for Mahler, Sibelius and some other modern composers nothing is acknowledged as real music rather than just divertissements it often seems.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

For what it's worth, in my polls to find out which composers were liked by the most people, Saint-Saëns ended up comfortably in the top 20.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

Great discussion topic.
I'm letting her grow up and hope for the best. I never listened to something of her and I would be very surprised to hear at her age a composition of the level of Bruckner No.00.
But, who knows, maybe she is already in this forum under an avatar and secret identity, not talking a lot, but lurking through the posts. At her age I would like to be taken seriously even if I had no particular ability but for playing Pokémon games and getting straight As in exams.


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

arpeggio said:


> Our problem is not with Ms. Deutscher but with those who have elevated her to be some sort of savior of classical music.


Could we have one example from either someone on TC, or even better, a music news publication, that has used this type of rhetoric which you claim is the case? Where has anyone said she's the "savior of classical music"? Do these people that say this deride contemporary composers? Do they diminish the achievements of "proper" contemporary composers?

I'm just confused because I've never seen this type of Alma as the "savior of classical music".

I wish her success and a long future in music. Why would anyone not? She's a little girl.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Anankasmo said:


> Seems like a Typical comment of someone who only sees French music as impressionistic. But there was way more going on in Frances musical scene than just Ravel and Debussy..... True the french romantic composers are no match for their German pendant but still......
> Masterworks: Organ symphony, Piano Concertos 1,3,4,5, Violin Concerto 3, Cello Concerto 1, Introduction and Rondo Cappricoso, Havanaise, Allegro Appasionato, Carnival of the Animals (if only for the Swan and Aquarium), Requiem, La Lyre et la Harpe, Samson et Dalila, Henry VIII, Tarantelle, Phaeton, Danse Macabre, Oratorio de Noel, La foi, Cello Sonata 1, Violin Sonata 1, Cello Suite, The woodwind sonatas, His piano trios and Piano quartets, string quartet and several songs as well as some small piano pieces.....
> 
> Some of these works may be not in the canon or repertoire but are still masterpieces.
> Honestly I do not understand why S-S doesnt have the place he deserves alongside the great versatile composers of the 1830s (Brahms, Tschaikowski, Dvorak) considering Brahms was probably even more conservative than him.


I may not agree that all the works you listed are masterpieces, but I think enough are. As Nereffid indicated, Saint-Saens is well respected at TC, and I would certainly label him great. Personally I would label at least 100 composers, and maybe more, great given the enormous timespan of classical music and the large number of recorded composers.


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2017)

DiesIraeCX said:


> Could we have one example from either someone on TC, or even better, a music news publication, that has used this type of rhetoric which you claim is the case? Where has anyone said she's the "savior of classical music"? Do these people that say this deride contemporary composers? Do they diminish the achievements of "proper" contemporary composers?
> 
> I'm just confused because I've never seen this type of Alma as the "savior of classical music".


Perhaps not those exact words, but how about these:



> AD is the subject of professional envy (like Amadeus was). Her creativity at her tender age speaks volumes. Her success at her age speaks even more, a mirror of what contemporary composed music today should be.


or this:



> Deutscher's opera (a very new piece of music composed today) has already been commended by the English National Opera, one of the most innovative and accessible opera houses today who support all operas from all time periods, which in this case, the 21st century, here and now. What more encouraging approval can a young prodigy expect? We ought to be supporting 21st century composers like Deutscher. Its' so exciting to have new music like this.


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

MacLeod said:


> Perhaps not those exact words, but how about these:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


MacLeod, *BOTH *of these quotes are from our very own ArtMusic here on TalkClassical! :lol: Nice try, though. Do you really thinking getting a couple ArtMusic posts makes the point very well?

Post #1: http://www.talkclassical.com/showthread.php?t=22087&p=881237&viewfull=1#post881237
Post #2: http://www.talkclassical.com/35048-have-you-heard-21st.html#post760722

The first one is silly, of course.

However, I don't' really find anything wrong with the second quote you've gathered. Can you help me out with what I should find troubling in that post? I'm stumped.

- She was commended by the English National Opera, that's great to hear. I would hope any contemporary composer would be.
-That's true, that's quite the encouraging approval. That's pretty objectively true. I'd be encouraged, too, if I were a contemporary composer.
- Of course the word "ought" is a bit troublesome, but not a huge deal. The person said we ought to be supporting 21st century composers like Deutscher. The poster didn't exclude anyone else from being supported. Am I missing where they did?
- It's exciting for anyone who enjoys her music or her style of music. Again, nothing problematic there.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

In what way these a problem? The last one is merely opinion (apart from, quoting the commendation of the ENO). There are obviously going to be critics who will embrace Deutscher's aesthetic since a great deal of 'new music' _taken seriously_ has now come to be of one variety and she is seen as breathing new life into the idea of melody and 'music for pleasure'.

The negative criticism will surely either balance this or outweigh it. So what? What are you trying to prove exactly?


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2017)

I offered two comments which seemed to match what I thought was being asked for. I'm not that interested in defending my suggestions if you disagree that they match. As for whether they are true, I'm even less interested.


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

Well, I kinda figured you wouldn't be very interested in defending your suggestions after I pointed out that they were _both_ from a single, well-known (and rather notorious) member here on TC.


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2017)

DiesIraeCX said:


> Well, I kinda figured you wouldn't be very interested in defending your suggestions after I pointed out that they were _both_ from a single, well-known (and rather notorious) member here on TC.


You asked for one from someone here at TC. I found one...


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

MacLeod said:


> I offered two comments which seemed to match what I thought was being asked for. I'm not that interested in defending my suggestions if you disagree that they match. As for whether they are true, I'm even less interested.


So disinterested that you went to the trouble of finding and them and posting them? Okay.


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2017)

eugeneonagain said:


> So disinterested that you went to the trouble of finding and them and posting them? Okay.


Obviously not "so" disinterested. But you've cleverly worked that out for yourself. :lol:


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

MacLeod:

You were asked a question, and I think you answered it quite well. Yes, it all comes from ArtMusic, but he's a member here as we all are. It was ArtMusic who kept throwing out the term 'new music' when it really is very old music.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

MacLeod said:


> Obviously not "so" disinterested. But you've cleverly worked that out for yourself. :lol:


Yes I did. Whereas you not so cleverly betrayed phony disinterestedness. Now I'm still wondering why the effort was required?


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2017)

eugeneonagain said:


> Yes I did. Whereas you not so cleverly betrayed phony disinterestedness. Now I'm still wondering why the effort was required?


Phony? No. It's not a binary thing, interest. On. Off. True. False. Fake. Real.

Not as clever as I first thought. Never mind.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

eugeneonagain said:


> Yes I did. Whereas you not so cleverly betrayed phony disinterestedness. Now I'm still wondering why the effort was required?


It takes very little effort to look up the past Alma threads. MacLeod was challenged to provide evidence, and he did just that. I find that any negativity coming back at him at this time is totally bogus.


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## Honegger (Sep 8, 2017)

Who is this "Alma Deutscher"? She is a child?? Have never heard of her. Any reccommend?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Honeger said:


> Who is this "Alma Deutscher"? She is a child?? Have never heard of her. Any reccommend?


This is a situation where ignorance is the best option.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

DiesIraeCX said:


> Could we have one example from either someone on TC, or even better, a music news publication, that has used this type of rhetoric which you claim is the case? Where has anyone said she's the "savior of classical music"? Do these people that say this deride contemporary composers? Do they diminish the achievements of "proper" contemporary composers?
> 
> I'm just confused because I've never seen this type of Alma as the "savior of classical music".
> 
> I wish her success and a long future in music. Why would anyone not? She's a little girl.


I also wish Ms. Deutscher the best and I have stated this many times. My observation is that I know of and have met many prodigies who are just as accomplished as she is. I have tried to provide examples of this here at TC many times.

I wish I could find examples of those who have made savior of classical music remarks but the search feature is messed up at TC.

And if I did find some you know perfectly well that I would be accused of making negative comments about a fellow member and I would be chastened by the moderators for violating the TOS.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

arpeggio said:


> And if I did find some you know perfectly well that I would be accused of making negative comments about a fellow member and I would be chastened by the moderators for violating the TOS.


Let's assume all that has already happened.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

Bulldog said:


> Let's assume all that has already happened.


I have already been burned once for doing this. I am not touching this with a ten foot pole.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I sometimes wonder if TC management has a 'special' list that they turn to when they're in bad moods.


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

Sigh...........


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Bulldog said:


> It takes very little effort to look up the past Alma threads. MacLeod was challenged to provide evidence, and he did just that. I find that any negativity coming back at him at this time is totally bogus.


Do you? Big deal. The only bogus elements in this thread are the people going way overboard to build some sort of critique against a talented child and dipping into 'Alma threads' as though this is a matter that was 'already settled'. As if that is a worthy enterprise.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Portamento said:


> This thread is junk. Absolute junk. Please delete it and relieve my eyes of the pain caused by seeing it in the main forum.
> 
> "eugeneonagain" - thanks for 'reviving' this most pointless discussion (even though the Alma guestbook was still active... if you were able to see that).


Don't click on it then. You may find forums are not organised to your personal comforts and tastes.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

Portamento said:


> This thread is junk. Absolute junk. Please delete it and relieve my eyes of the pain caused by seeing it in the main forum.
> 
> "eugeneonagain" - thanks for 'reviving' this most pointless discussion (even though the Alma guestbook was still active... if you were able to see that).


If you believe it is junk no one forced you to read it did they?


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

MacLeod said:


> Phony? No. It's not a binary thing, interest. On. Off. True. False. Fake. Real.
> 
> Not as clever as I first thought. Never mind.


Feigning disinterest again?

I don't really care if you think I'm 'clever' or not (that is genuine disinterest) it was enough to highlight an ironic failure.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

OK, I checked using Google. No one on TC has referred to AD as a savior, but several have criticized others for calling her a savior. As far as I can tell, no one has called her the future of classical music. Some have heaped great praise on her, and others have suggested that level of praise is perhaps premature or overblown. 

I think almost everyone believes she has significant talent. I think everyone recognizes that she is young and has years to develop into whatever the future holds for her. 

I think most of us recognize that the reason there is some conflict in these threads is that AD composes in an older style. That style is desired by some and bemoaned by others. Maybe she is getting more exposure than her level of accomplishments actually deserves. If she doesn't continue to grow and create mature works, she will no longer be known as a composer. To me, these issues don't really seem worthy of the level of conflict they have engendered on TC. But that's just me.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> If you believe it is junk no one forced you to read it did they?


Some of us prefer only to read the things that annoy us--it's why I resolutely ignore the booze threads and read everything else.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

There's too much discussion of other members rather than a focus on the thread topic. Let's get back to that.


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## Timothy (Jul 19, 2017)

Alma is really pushing the limits of what music can be and endlessly innovating in ways that transcend ages, sex, race and religion. I look to her as my guide in life


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

mmsbls said:


> OK, I checked using Google. No one on TC has referred to AD as a savior, but several have criticized others for calling her a savior. As far as I can tell, no one has called her the future of classical music. Some have heaped great praise on her, and others have suggested that level of praise is perhaps premature or overblown.
> 
> I think almost everyone believes she has significant talent. I think everyone recognizes that she is young and has years to develop into whatever the future holds for her.
> 
> I think most of us recognize that the reason there is some conflict in these threads is that AD composes in an older style. That style is desired by some and bemoaned by others. Maybe she is getting more exposure than her level of accomplishments actually deserves. If she doesn't continue to grow and create mature works, she will no longer be known as a composer. To me, these issues don't really seem worthy of the level of conflict they have engendered on TC. But that's just me.


Do you know what's most ironic? My own listening includes a large amount of modern music and I am more likely to champion composers a lot of other folk here would knock down as modern trash. I didn't start this thread because I think her style of composing is 'correct' or 'modern music'; I started it because it's good to see young people so musically active and a possible talent for the future.

well, what happens? A pack of wolves jumps in to tear it to pieces because they think they sense danger or threats or fakery or claims or god-knows-what. It's pathetic. They are pathetic.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

eugeneonagain said:


> Do you know what's most ironic? My own listening includes a large amount of modern music and I am more likely to champion composers a lot of other folk here would knock down as modern trash. I didn't start this thread because I think her style of composing is 'correct' or 'modern music'; I started it because it's good to see young people so musically active and a possible talent for the future.
> 
> well, what happens? A pack of wolves jumps in to tear it to pieces because they think they sense danger or threats or fakery or claims or god-knows-what. It's pathetic. They are pathetic.


Looks like they are trying to get the thread locked or moved so they can control everything.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> Looks like they are trying to get the thread locked or moved so they can control everything.


Likely so. It reflects badly on them.


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

Control everything? I don't think so. Just a melting pot of strong personalities.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

mmsbls said:


> *I think most of us recognize that the reason there is some conflict in these threads is that AD composes in an older style. *That style is desired by some and bemoaned by others. Maybe she is getting more exposure than her level of accomplishments actually deserves. If she doesn't continue to grow and create mature works, she will no longer be known as a composer. To me, *these issues don't really seem worthy of the level of conflict they have engendered on TC. But that's just me.*


*
*
No, it's me too.

I think the fact that a young girl writes music in the styles of earlier periods, which seems to bother some people and please others, doesn't call for any sort of value judgment except possibly a judgment of whether she's good at it. The only interesting question her music might raise is whether, and in what way, a more mature composer (which she will no doubt become) writing in older styles can make a vital or meaningful contribution to the contemporary world. Included in any answer would have to be an answer to the question of what constitutes an "older" style.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

eugeneonagain said:


> well, what happens? A pack of wolves jumps in to tear it to pieces because they think they sense danger or threats or fakery or claims or god-knows-what. It's pathetic. They are pathetic.


Sounds like you didn't pay attention to post #121.


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

Bulldog said:


> It takes very little effort to look up the past Alma threads. MacLeod was challenged to provide evidence, and he did just that. I find that any negativity coming back at him at this time is totally bogus.


Negativity, no, but rather a healthy dose of skepticism, and rightly so. One comment was found on the ENTIRE TC website, much less any actual news or music sites like BBC music, the Guardian, etc. etc.

Arpeggio claimed, in his own words, that "_Our problem is not with Ms. Deutscher but with those who have elevated her to be some sort of savior of classical music._".

I don't know about you, but that's quite the claim, I asked for evidence of this, and I do believe it was responded to in bad faith. Imagine if I made a claim, and the ONLY evidence that was provided was a SINGLE post from a single commenter on the Guardian.com.

People on this thread were quite annoyed that such animosity was stirred up over a little girl's music, to which Arpeggio responded, it wasn't the girl, it was that people claimed she was the savior and the future of music. This wasn't found, not in TC (not even in ArtMusic's post, he never said she was a savior), not on a Google search (see mmsbls' post). Because it's not there. It's a feigned "problem".


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

DiesIraeCX said:


> Negativity, no, but rather a healthy dose of skepticism, and rightly so. One comment was found on the ENTIRE TC website, much less any actual news or music sites like BBC music, the Guardian, etc. etc.
> 
> Arpeggio claimed, in his own words, that "_Our problem is not with Ms. Deutscher but with those who have elevated her to be some sort of savior of classical music._".
> 
> ...


Well, I just don't see it as you do, but I'm not going to continue with this thread for two reasons. First, I consider you a good guy and fellow gamer. Second, I don't appreciate being called pathetic. I'm outta here, and I'll go back to my usual TC activities where members interact with kindness and consideration.


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

Bulldog said:


> Well, I just don't see it as you do, but I'm not going to continue with this thread for two reasons. First, I consider you a good guy and fellow gamer. Second, I don't appreciate being called pathetic. I'm outta here, and I'll go back to my usual TC activities where members interact with kindness and consideration.


Thank you, I also consider you a good guy. I was unaware someone called you or anyone on here pathetic. I won't stand for that and of course condemn it.


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## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> Looks like they are trying to get the thread locked or moved so they can control everything.


You need to stop saying this in every single thread that has an 'other side' that you don't agree with. Hopefully that will lead to you not thinking it as well. How's that for controlling :devil:


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## Guest (Sep 9, 2017)

mmsbls said:


> As far as I can tell, no one has called her the future of classical music. Some have heaped great praise on her, and others have suggested that level of praise is perhaps premature or overblown.


Precisely so. Thank you.


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## Guest (Sep 9, 2017)

DiesIraeCX said:


> I asked for evidence of this, and I do believe it was responded to in bad faith. Imagine if I made a claim, and the ONLY evidence that was provided was a SINGLE post from a single commenter on the Guardian.com.


I'm sorry you thought it was made in bad faith. It was made in an effort to show that there was _some _foundation to arpeggio's hyperbolic claim which mmsbls has rather more soberly explained in post #119. It was that which piqued my interest.

My level of 'interest' seems to trouble eugene. I had already made clear my views about the documentary about Alma. I didn't feel they needed repeating (which is why I didn't seem interested in discussing the substantive topic)


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## Guest (Sep 9, 2017)

Nereffid said:


> I've just watched the programme, and initially it was just as you describe here. Although it did pretty much remain a "puff piece", it ended up (I think) shedding quite a bit of light on Alma as a person rather than merely a prodigy. [etc]


I've just finished watching it too, and I agree. It was, in some ways, a better programme than I had anticipated, precisely because by the end, I had a sense of a child prodigy who, though her manner struck me as 'odd', was natural. I got no sense that she was in any way false; not somehow manufactured by those around her. More than that, although she was obviously not playing piano or violin or composing as she came out of the womb (we were not told anything about the parents' raising of her), her considerable talent did not come from being forced. It was as if the parents, having once introduced her to the music _they_ listened to, realised that they had a child who was "bigger than they" - that she had an enormous appetite for music that they had to feed. It seemed to be good evidence for nature being a greater influence on Alma's development than nurture. The Deutschers didn't make Alma what she is - they simply responded to who she is.

It was telling, I thought, that she wrote into her opera how Cinderella's composing is inspired by a 'voice' she hears - and that in the production, Alma plays the 'voice' - and that is partly how Alma herself reports her own composing. The other part is that she almost disowns her own role by what she says about the imaginary composer (Antonin) in her head from whom she has stolen some of the tunes for her _Cinderella_.

It prompts many other questions, and clearly some scepticism (and some cynicism too) since it bears comparison with other fields in which young children are nurtured (or forced) to showcase their talents. What bothered me least was what some others here have reportedly got worked up about (I've not followed all the threads about her) which is the style of music she is composing. She's writing what she wants, and if it brings the positive attention of Rattle, Terfel and Mehta, then it must have some merit. I see no reason to either criticise her (or her family) for not getting her to compose "modern" music, nor to lionise her as a possible future of music.

Of course, this was only one TV programme, presenting one view of Alma. What rang true with me was that I have met 'odd' children before. I've walked round the playground with them, listening to them chat because they preferred the company of adults and they don't want to play the games that most other children want to play. They simply weren't like the majority of the rest of the class - but they were every bit as 'natural' as the other children.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

My answer to any lonely, sad people who when they see this kind of thing who always say: 'she's still got loads to learn, her work is just juvenile', is 'well, obviously, you fool, she's 12!'. The fact is, she's extremely talented for her age, and, listening to her violin concerto, though it is OBVIOUSLY not at Mozart level (what did you expect?) it actually has a level of orchestration that is outstanding for a very young girl. I can understand being sceptical of completely pouring 'genius' all over her at a young age, but that also doesn't mean completely dismissing her as a fad just because she received that praise in the first place.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

MacLeod said:


> It was, in some ways, a better programme than I had anticipated, precisely because by the end, I had a sense of a child prodigy who, though her manner struck me as 'odd', was natural. I got no sense that she was in any way false; not somehow manufactured by those around her.


I agree, and I think the program was valuable in that sense because you were presented with Alma Deutscher _as a person_. In a lot of the discussion here she seems to have been assigned some sort of totemic status - an icon of what classical music "should" be, or the anti-poster-child of pro-modernists (if you follow me), or a symbol of what's wrong with celebrity culture. 
But then I suppose the same thing happens to other composers - the gods like Bach or the boogeymen like Schoenberg.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

Lisztian said:


> You need to stop saying this in every single thread that has an 'other side' that you don't agree with. Hopefully that will lead to you not thinking it as well. How's that for controlling :devil:


I have not said that in every thread nor have I went in to every modern composer thread and bad mouthed them like some have in every Alma Deutscher thread.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

mmsbls said:


> OK, I checked using Google. No one on TC has referred to AD as a savior, but several have criticized others for calling her a savior. As far as I can tell, no one has called her the future of classical music. Some have heaped great praise on her, and others have suggested that level of praise is perhaps premature or overblown.
> 
> I think almost everyone believes she has significant talent. I think everyone recognizes that she is young and has years to develop into whatever the future holds for her.
> 
> I think most of us recognize that the reason there is some conflict in these threads is that AD composes in an older style. That style is desired by some and bemoaned by others. Maybe she is getting more exposure than her level of accomplishments actually deserves. If she doesn't continue to grow and create mature works, she will no longer be known as a composer. To me, these issues don't really seem worthy of the level of conflict they have engendered on TC. But that's just me.


What a lovely, measured, reasonable post. :tiphat:


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

Ingélou said:


> What a lovely, measured, reasonable post. :tiphat:


Now, please, let's get back to the mud-slinging! :devil: :lol:

________

In all seriousness, I believe this girl shows real understanding of music theory, orchestration, and quite considerable talent for her age. We all need to withhold judgement until she is older. She is only 12! She probably hasn't menstruated, had a boyfriend, experienced the death of a loved one, had a serious injury. She likely isn't immersed in world politics. Her experience of literature is likely minimal. Soo....Her taste in music will change a lot as she grows older and experiences life. What were Mozart, Prokofiev, Mahler, Puccini, etc composing at the age of 12? Essentially, none of us know because it was either immature or didn't exist.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

^ Excellent point. Music simply rolls off her mind naturally. There is nothing pretentious at all in her notes, she writes freely to speak to the listener and her music overwhelmingly succeeds in that. Pure and simple. That's all it takes.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2017)

20centrfuge said:


> We all need to withhold judgement until she is older.


That's an odd thing to suggest. Doesn't it rather depend what the judgement is about? If it's about what she will be doing in 30 years time, certainly. If it's about the talent she exhibits now, why withold 'judgement'?

I assume what you mean is that we should avoid being judgemental - that is, having or displaying an overly critical point of view of her. Well, in _this _thread, I've read very few posts by even fewer posters that have been overly critical of her, so we can safely say that the majority here recognise her talent and are interested in seeing how it develops. The judgemental can be ignored, I think.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

20centrfuge said:


> Now, please, let's get back to the mud-slinging! :devil: :lol:
> 
> ________
> 
> In all seriousness, I believe this girl shows real understanding of music theory, orchestration, and quite considerable talent for her age. We all need to withhold judgement until she is older. She is only 12! She probably hasn't menstruated, had a boyfriend, experienced the death of a loved one, had a serious injury. She likely isn't immersed in world politics. Her experience of literature is likely minimal. Soo....Her taste in music will change a lot as she grows older and experiences life. *What were Mozart, Prokofiev, Mahler, Puccini, etc composing at the age of 12? Essentially, none of us know because it was either immature or didn't exist.*


In the case of Prokofiev we do know. Here are excerpts (piano reduction accompaniment) from a three-act opera he wrote, music and words, at the age of nine:






There are already aspects of his mature style apparent and he could play some of the easier Beethoven sonatas by that time. Prokofiev had previously written a number of piano works beginning at age six and was improvising original work at the piano before he could read music. His parents didn't want or need to push him at that age-all of this activity was at the boy's insistence. At the age of 12 he was studying with Reinhold Gliere, writing piano sonatas, a violin sonata and an opera. This is a piece he wrote for his father's birthday when he was 12:






He entered the St. Petersburg Conservatory at the age of 13.

Of course, within a couple of years we have a more official record, since his published work began to be composed then, including works that are still performed and recorded.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

EdwardBast said:


> In the case of Prokofiev we do know. Here are excerpts (piano reduction accompaniment) from a three-act opera he wrote, music and words, at the age of nine:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What does all this this mean though? That she's Prokofiev's equal at that age? That Prokofiev's trajectory is a model for what hers will be? That someone erroneously suggested she has done marvellous things at her age that no other composer ever did at the same age? That Prokofiev couldn't/didn't orchestrate his youthful opera, whereas she has done?

Are comparisons really necessary?


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

eugeneonagain said:


> What does all this this mean though? That she's Prokofiev's equal at that age? That Prokofiev's trajectory is a model for what hers will be? That someone erroneously suggested she has done marvellous things at her age that no other composer ever did at the same age? That Prokofiev couldn't/didn't orchestrate his youthful opera, whereas she has done?
> 
> *Are comparisons really necessary?*


Did you read post 140, in which 20centrfuge wrote "Essentially, none of us know [what Prokofiev and others had written at Deutscher's age] because it was either immature or didn't exist"? I was merely pointing out that this statement is mistaken - egregiously so, since Prokofiev was composing original music in an identifiable personal style by that age and studying with a well-known composer. Not only do we know what he was composing at age 12, we can hear many recorded examples of it on youtube. Which is to say, someone else made the comparison, I was just making it historically accurate.


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

20centrfuge said:


> Now, please, let's get back to the mud-slinging! :devil: :lol:
> 
> ________
> 
> In all seriousness, I believe this girl shows real understanding of music theory, orchestration, and quite considerable talent for her age. We all need to withhold judgement until she is older. She is only 12! She probably hasn't menstruated, had a boyfriend, experienced the death of a loved one, had a serious injury. She likely isn't immersed in world politics. Her experience of literature is likely minimal. Soo....Her taste in music will change a lot as she grows older and experiences life. *What were Mozart, Prokofiev, Mahler, Puccini, etc composing at the age of 12? Essentially, none of us know* because it was either immature or didn't exist.


We know for sure what Mozart was composing at that age, even younger. Here is his first symphony for example, a very charming work for an 8 year old composer:


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

EdwardBast said:


> Did you read post 140, in which 20centrfuge wrote "Essentially, none of us know [what Prokofiev and others had written at Deutscher's age] because it was either immature or didn't exist"? I was merely pointing out that this statement is mistaken - egregiously so, since Prokofiev was composing original music in an identifiable personal style by that age and studying with a well-known composer. Not only do we know what he was composing at age 12, we can hear many recorded examples of it on youtube. Which is to say, someone else made the comparison, I was just making it historically accurate.


Yes, I did read the preceding post. I was also already aware of Prokofiev's early efforts - even if some aren't. I just don't think they're relevant to someone else's progress. It wasn't a direct attack on your post, it was about asking questions about what these comparisons are supposed to achieve.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Fwiw, I think there should be a low bar for the relevance of musical and historical detail in these discussions. I didn't know about the early Prokofiev and enjoyed getting the extra info in passing--I don't mind these sorts of clarifications of passing remarks.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

eugeneonagain said:


> Yes, I did read the preceding post. I was also already aware of Prokofiev's early efforts - even if some aren't. I just don't think they're relevant to someone else's progress. It wasn't a direct attack on your post, it was about asking questions about what these comparisons are supposed to achieve.


Part of the point I was making is that I'm not the right person to ask about "what these comparisons are supposed to achieve" because I made no comparison whatever! Someone claimed we don't know what Prokofiev was composing at age 12 because it was immature or nonexistent. I stated that we did know and that it was neither immature nor nonexistent. I did not mention Deutscher at all nor did I compare her work to Prokofiev's.

While I'm busy not making comparisons  I'd like to point out how mature and thoughtful Prokofiev's parents were in responding to their son's early efforts. Although he was obviously a prodigy at both piano and composition, they didn't push him into the limelight or publicly promote him. They put him in the hands of a professional composer who, as it happens, felt he had to suppress young Sergei's most original and experimental efforts, which were pushing toward the freely chromatic language of his contemporaries.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2017)

eugeneonagain said:


> Are comparisons really necessary?


If the question being asked is, to what extent Alma is a prodigy, then it helps inform the discussion to know what well known established composers were doing at a comparable age.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

jdec said:


> We know for sure what Mozart was composing at that age, even younger. Here is his first symphony for example, a very charming work for an 8 year old composer:


Listen to the horn in the second movement. It plays the motif that opens the fugal finale of his last symphony, the "Jupiter."


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Listen to the horn in the second movement. It plays the motif that opens the fugal finale of his last symphony, the "Jupiter."


Yes, but the fugal subject which opens the finale of the Jupiter symphony (DoReFaMi) is not Mozarts invention. It has been used by several composers before Mozart, e.g. J S Bach (E-major fugue from WTC II).


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

I stand corrected on what composers were composing at an early age. I probably should have done my research . That was honestly very interesting to hear what Prokofiev wrote at an early age and to see some similarity in energy and ilk to what he would compose as an adult. I didn't know that existed. Sincere thanks! :tiphat:

As ms. Deutscher's music stands now, I can't say that I care for it. Maybe it will significantly change with time, maybe it won't. I'll cut her some slack and won't shut the door on her or her career. I'll listen again later on, in a few more years. Hell, at age 12, I was playing rudimentary stuff on the cornet and listening to crappy pop music. She's certainly headed for greater than I am.

...and with that I abandon this thread.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

premont said:


> Yes, but the fugal subject which opens the finale of the Jupiter symphony (DoReFaMi) is not Mozarts invention. It has been used by several composers before Mozart, e.g. J S Bach (E-major fugue from WTC II).


True. It's a pretty elementary idea that would have occurred to a number of people. I just find it an interesting coincidence that it occurs in both Mozart's first symphony and his last. I assume it isn't an intentional gesture like Rachmaninoff's use of a theme from his first symphony in his Symphonic Dances, his last orchestral work.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Blancrocher said:


> Fwiw, I think there should be a low bar for the relevance of musical and historical detail in these discussions. I didn't know about the early Prokofiev and enjoyed getting the extra info in passing--I don't mind these sorts of clarifications of passing remarks.


Leaving Ms. Deutscher aside for the moment, the evidence for Prokofiev as a 20th century prodigy of near-Mozartian proportions is compelling, and I have always been impressed by this parallelism, in their shared precociousness, their ease of composition, and their compulsion to compose.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The startlingly mature childhood works of Korngold astonished everyone, including Mahler and Strauss.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Strange Magic said:


> Leaving Ms. Deutscher aside for the moment, the evidence for Prokofiev as a 20th century prodigy of near-Mozartian proportions is compelling, and I have always been impressed by this parallelism, in their shared precociousness, their ease of composition, and their compulsion to compose.


Part of what makes Prokofiev's case compelling for me is that there was no economic pressure from, for example, a father out for fast cash and even his mother, a piano teacher, didn't pressure him toward music. On the contrary, his parents seemed concerned about giving his abiding interest free rein - until he broke down all resistance and proved himself unstoppable.


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