# Are you alone??



## Fan66 (Jan 22, 2017)

It seems like, at my work, and within my limited circle of acquaintances, no one I know is a Classical Music Fan. As such, I reside in the glorious world of classical music, all alone. Do you experience this too? How neat it would be to gather with others who truly appreciate how classical music transports one to other places and somehow, brightens one's heart. Where does one find middle aged persons who like such amazing music?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Fan66 said:


> It seems like, at my work, and within my limited circle of acquaintances, no one I know is a Classical Music Fan. As such, I reside in the glorious world of classical music, all alone. Do you experience this too? How neat it would be to gather with others who truly appreciate how classical music transports one to other places and somehow, brightens one's heart. Where does one find middle aged persons who like such amazing music?


We had the same question some short time ago, I will try to find it.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Most of my inner circle know that I like classical music but of those who aren't averse to it none of them remotely like it to the extent I do. Therefore anything approaching dialogue about classical music is very rare but I don't mind as I can't see the point of me waffling on about the musical virtues of Paul Hindemith when hardly anyone in my group has even heard of him in the first place. 

I don't consider this state of affairs to be any different to someone trying to talk to me about topics of which I have no interest at all but which are very popular with many people, such as motorbikes, angling or gardening. It's just one of those situations where it's to our mutual benefit that I keep my hobby to myself, but I don't feel any sense of social isolation because of that - I'm more than happy knowing that if I want to say anything about classical music then I am best served by sites such as this.


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## Krummhorn (Feb 18, 2007)

Fan66 said:


> . . . How neat it would be to gather with others who truly appreciate how classical music transports one to other places and somehow, brightens one's heart. Where does one find middle aged persons who like such amazing music?


Ever thought about joining a church choir? Most churches delve into classical music seriously, others not so much.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Fan66 said:


> It seems like, at my work, and within my limited circle of acquaintances, no one I know is a Classical Music Fan. As such, I reside in the glorious world of classical music, all alone. Do you experience this too? How neat it would be to gather with others who truly appreciate how classical music transports one to other places and somehow, brightens one's heart. Where does one find middle aged persons who like such amazing music?


Yes. I feel your pain. It seems one needed to be a music major in college to acquire a lot of classical music friends. I'm so used to my solitary hobby that I'm immune to complaining about it.


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

Krummhorn said:


> Ever thought about joining a church choir? Most churches delve into classical music seriously, others not so much.


Or just a choir with a serious approach to music. I'm a member of a male choir that performs 'church songs' (like 'You raise me up') but also Lieder from Schubert, Beethoven and Mendelssohn and opera (Mozart, Verdi, Beethoven).


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Yes. I feel your pain. *It seems one needed to be a music major in college to acquire a lot of classical music friends.* I'm so used to my solitary hobby, I'm immune to complaining about it.


Not necessarily. In the U.S. many university music departments maintain large choirs that invite community participation. In them one finds music students and citizens of all ages rubbing elbows. I sang in one that performed works by Mozart, Schubert, Britten, Bach, and Brahms, among others. And after the thirsty work of rehearsing, drinks and socializing tended to follow. Lots of classical music lovers there.


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

Fan66 said:


> It seems like, at my work, and within my limited circle of acquaintances, no one I know is a Classical Music Fan. As such, I reside in the glorious world of classical music, all alone. Do you experience this too? How neat it would be to gather with others who truly appreciate how classical music transports one to other places and somehow, brightens one's heart. Where does one find middle aged persons who like such amazing music?


Yes, it is rather difficult to find anyone in my family or circle of friends and co workers who enjoy classical music. Often I find statements like, "I like classical music" to mean that they've heard a little bit in a few commercials or movies and liked it, but they have no idea what it was. That's fine. Different strokes for different folks.

My mother (wise woman she was) always told me that when I get married, if I don't find a woman who shares my love of music, at least find a woman *who can appreciate* how much I love music. I did the latter, but she still would rather listen to popular music instead. So I do relish moments like now (as I type this) when she is not home and will not be for hours.

In the past year I have made four flash drives for three friends and one co-worker who expressed a desire to learn and listen to some classical music. So I compiled a collection of mostly "familiar" pieces along with some "Great" works (Bach's Mass in B Minor, Verdi's Requiem, etc). I usually ask them if they like piano or violin or another instrument in particular. If so, I concentrate on those sub genres. I print out a bit of history, stories, and libretto (if applicable) and hand that along with the flash drive. Every now and then, I will follow up and ask how much they have listened to and if there is any composer, style, solo instrument, or genre that they particularly like and if so, to let me know if they want any more. So far, no repeat "customers" but if I do that to 20, 30, or 40 people and I get just ONE classical lover from it, I believe my work was worth it and have done honor to this great and dying art known as classical music.

But alas, yes, I do crave being able to sit down, enjoy a cigar and/or drink, with someone who shares a similar passion for classical music. It is the primary reason that I sought out this web site. I completely understand the OP's feelings on this.

V


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## lextune (Nov 25, 2016)

I would not say that classical music is a "dying art".


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

My closest friend sometimes goes to concerts with me, but I cannot really geek out about it in depth with her. There is no one else. It's why we are here in this venue.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I have two friends who share my love for prog rock, but no-one who shares my love for a wide variety of classical. My wife loves a wide range of music, including a lot of my favourite pop/rock acts as well, but for classical music she sticks to Bach, Mozart and a few well-known others (like Mendelssohn's violin concerto).


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

EdwardBast said:


> Not necessarily. In the U.S. many university music departments maintain large choirs that invite community participation. In them one finds music students and citizens of all ages rubbing elbows. I sang in one that performed works by Mozart, Schubert, Britten, Bach, and Brahms, among others. And after the thirsty work of rehearsing, drinks and socializing tended to follow. Lots of classical music lovers there.


Yes. That could work.


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

lextune said:


> I would not say that classical music is a "dying art".


In the mid 1980's Classical music sales accounted for approx 10% of all album sales. In the mid 1990's it was down to 2%. It now accounts for less than 1/2 of 1%. Every year attendance in the great classical concert halls diminishes all over the world (possible exception is Asia). Almost every Concert Hall such as Carnegie Hall can not financially sustain itself solely on ticket sales. Almost all of them rely on an increasing combination of gov't grants, charitable contributions, popular and various other kinds of performances such as comedy, acrobatics, etc., and all sorts of fund raisers.

Classical music is being taught less and less in public schools. "School of Rock" has become an enormous industry here in the USA. Many orchestras have stopped touring due to the costs that are NOT being replenished by ticket sales. Much of dissonant and atonal music that has been composed in the past 50 years or so is not liked, hated, and even loathed certainly by the general public and often even by those classical lovers (many on this site right here). If it wasn't for grants and gov't subsidies, these composers would be homeless or waiting tables.

Yeah, I would say it's a "dying art."

V


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## cimirro (Sep 6, 2016)

lextune said:


> I would not say that classical music is a "dying art".


I agree, your are right, anyway the classical music lovers are dying quickly...


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## cimirro (Sep 6, 2016)

Varick said:


> In the mid 1980's Classical music sales accounted for approx 10% of all album sales. In the mid 1990's it was down to 2%. It now accounts for less than 1/2 of 1%. Every year attendance in the great classical concert halls diminishes all over the world (possible exception is Asia). Almost every Concert Hall such as Carnegie Hall can not financially sustain itself solely on ticket sales. Almost all of them rely on an increasing combination of gov't grants, charitable contributions, popular and various other kinds of performances such as comedy, acrobatics, etc., and all sorts of fund raisers.
> 
> Classical music is being taught less and less in public schools. "School of Rock" has become an enormous industry here in the USA. Many orchestras have stopped touring due to the costs that are NOT being replenished by ticket sales. Much of dissonant and atonal music that has been composed in the past 50 years or so is not liked, hated, and even loathed certainly by the general public and often even by those classical lovers (many on this site right here). If it wasn't for grants and gov't subsidies, these composers would be homeless or waiting tables.
> 
> ...


Speaking about sales you speak about a market, not about art.
Speaking about public schools you speak about politics, not about art.
The art is being made right now, it is not dying. 
We have less public interested.
But if we agree with the market, we will have only undressed woman and easy percussion rhythms called as "art" - sincerely I can't see any difference from this "art" and the stone age daily life...

Art is not ruled by market, art is made for art lovers. Market is made by politics for idiots who are unable to think.

All the Best
Artur CImirro


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I am fortunate that the group in the office next to mine is an organization that promotes classical music education for elementary students. They put on 3 concerts a year where kids are bussed in from all over the county. One of the women who is in the office most days is their music director who also conducts a number of small ensembles, so there is always someone to talk to! I have also managed to introduce my closest friend to the pleasures of most classical music. She loved a Bruckner concert but can't tolerate Mahler  However one other close friend who has been very involved with the Motown crowd for a long time and made some records and toured with them many years ago, has minimal interest!


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

cimirro said:


> Art is not ruled by market, art is made for art lovers. Market is made by politics for idiots who are unable to think.


I can't completely agree with this statement as many artists do their work strictly for their own satisfaction. If some like it, then wonderful. if not, too bad.


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

Fan66 said:


> It seems like, at my work, and within my limited circle of acquaintances, no one I know is a Classical Music Fan. As such, I reside in the glorious world of classical music, all alone. Do you experience this too? How neat it would be to gather with others who truly appreciate how classical music transports one to other places and somehow, brightens one's heart. Where does one find middle aged persons who like such amazing music?


This is where TC is so valuable to all of us. We are a tribe by ourselves! I learned lots about classical music more in this forum over the last 3 months. Who cares about those around us do not like/enjoy/understand classical music, consider yourself more fortunate than them. You have find sometime in life that has a high value and long lasting. Enjoy!


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

cimirro said:


> Speaking about sales you speak about a market, not about art.
> Speaking about public schools you speak about politics, not about art.
> The art is being made right now, it is not dying.
> We have less public interested.
> ...


My dear chap, art is often ruled by the market. I'm not saying that's good, and I'm not saying it's bad. It is what it is and wishing it not so does not change the fact of reality. If less and less people are learning about classical music, then less and less people are listening to it, composing it, and performing it (all of which IS an irrefutable fact). If all that is happening to any art, that is the very definition of "dying." It may not completely die, God forbid, but it certainly is on it's death bed, especially in western culture.

Say what you will about markets, but they are an unavoidable reality in our world. Also, be careful of calling all those who make markets "idiots who are unable to think." YOU make markets. You are creating a market every time you choose that blue shirt instead of the green one. Every time you choose a certain brand of toothpaste instead of the other 3, 5, or 10 you could have chosen. Every time you choose conductor "X" for that Beethoven Symphony over conductor "Y." Are you sure they are the only one's who are "thoughtless?"

V


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Varick said:


> My dear chap, art is often ruled by the market. I'm not saying that's good, and I'm not saying it's bad. It is what it is and wishing it not so does not change the fact of reality. If less and less people are learning about classical music, then less and less people are listening to it, composing it, and performing it (all if which IS an irrefutable fact). If all that is happening to any art, that is the very definition of "dying." It may not completely die, God forbid, but it certainly is on it's death bed, especially in western culture.
> 
> Say what you will about markets, but they are an unavoidable reality in our world. Also, be careful of calling all those who make markets "idiots who are unable to think." YOU make markets. You are creating a market every time you choose that blue shirt instead of the green one. Every time you choose a certain brand of toothpaste instead of the other 3, 5, or 10 you could have chosen. Every time you choose conductor "X" for that Beethoven Symphony over conductor "Y." Are you sure they are the only one's who are "thoughtless?"
> 
> V


A ton of people aren't buying but they are listening, that doesn't show up in such statistics.


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

Chronochromie said:


> A ton of people aren't buying but they are listening, that doesn't show up in such statistics.


Where are people listening that doesn't show up in stats?


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Varick said:


> Where are people listening that doesn't show up in stats?


Streaming sites, Youtube, torrents, etc.


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## gouts (Jan 19, 2017)

I only have one friend who knows some stuff about classical music. The others are able to recognize some -esp. popular-tracks, but that's about it. I might not be totally alone, but the feeling is quite strong, unfortunately...


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

Chronochromie said:


> Streaming sites, Youtube, torrents, etc.


Internet web site visits may be the most accurate statistics of what is watched and/or listened to than any other category. EVERYTHING on the internet is recorded to statistics. I'd be surprised if the owner of this web site *couldn't* easily look up how many times the name Beethoven has been posted.

If there is anyplace with hyper accurate statistics, it's the internet. They have become the most accurate and used source of statistics for businesses and organizations for sales and marketing.

V


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Varick said:


> Internet web site visits may be the most accurate statistics of what is watched and/or listened to than any other category. EVERYTHING on the internet is recorded to statistics. I'd be surprised if the owner of this web site *couldn't* easily look up how many times the name Beethoven has been posted.
> 
> If there is anyplace with hyper accurate statistics, it's the internet. They have become the most accurate and used source of statistics for businesses and organizations for sales and marketing.
> 
> V


If it wasn't clear I said "such statistics" as in your original post you only referred to numbers of recordings bought...which is misleading in the days we're living in.


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

None of my friends like it although I have a couple of family members who have a reasonably strong interest. None to the point that I can obsess with them over the different strengths of Bruckner, Mahler, Strauss and Schoenberg as exponents of late Austrian/German romanticism though. As others have said, that's what makes this such a great place.


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

Chronochromie said:


> If it wasn't clear I said "such statistics" as in your original post you only referred to numbers of recordings bought...which is misleading in the days we're living in.


Well then, I apologize if I wasn't clear. The entire point was when Lextune said that it wasn't a dying art. Taking all the above into consideration, I think one could make a rather confident assertion that it is. Much to my chagrin!!! But what I never do, is deny reality because I don't like it.

V


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Varick said:


> Well then, I apologize if I wasn't clear. The entire point was when Lextune said that it wasn't a dying art. Taking all the above into consideration, I think one could make a rather confident assertion that it is. Much to my chagrin!!! But what I never do, is deny reality because I don't like it.
> 
> V


But one of the things you said to to justify your point was the falling rate of people buying recordings, then I said that that isn't very important since people use other (cheaper) ways of listening to music and now you're just ignoring that and repeating your original point? Ok.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Varick said:


> Internet web site visits may be the most accurate statistics of what is watched and/or listened to than any other category. EVERYTHING on the internet is recorded to statistics. I'd be surprised if the owner of this web site *couldn't* easily look up how many times the name Beethoven has been posted.
> 
> If there is anyplace with hyper accurate statistics, it's the internet. They have become the most accurate and used source of statistics for businesses and organizations for sales and marketing.
> 
> V


Please remember Mark Twain's comments "There are lies, damn lies and statistics." i.e. statistics are essentially meaningless unless you really understand their total context. Web sites often keep track of various information, hits, IP addresses etc., but because of the nature of internet addressing, the context is often lacking. Even more lacking is the mathematical sophistication of the people who try to make use of those statistics.


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

No I did not ignore it at all. All those internet sites where one does not have to purchase but can listen to also show far fewer people listening to classical music than popular (Rock, pop, top 40, R&B, rap, metal, country, etc). There is not a single stat out there that shows classical music is "growing" in popularity. It has been mostly static in Asia for the past few decades which is also the biggest market of classical music in the world, but there are still many indicators that shows it's decline there as well.

Sorry, but you would have to show me a macro-example of where classical music is growing in listenership, purchases, enthusiasm COMPARED to other genres of music to convince me otherwise. I've looked. There is nothing out there that says otherwise. It IS, unfortunately, a dying art. 

People like us are the only ones keeping it alive, and our numbers are dwindling as well.

V


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

Becca said:


> Please remember Mark Twain's comments "There are lies, damn lies and statistics." i.e. statistics are essentially meaningless unless you really understand their total context. Web sites often keep track of various information, hits, IP addresses etc., but because of the nature of internet addressing, the context is often lacking. Even more lacking is the mathematical sophistication of the people who try to make use of those statistics.


Yes, it's a witty quip of a line from one of my favorite minds of the 20th Century. However, conversely, as much as statistics are used and can be used in twisted contorted ways, there is one industry above all others that uses them to great accuracy (And there are plenty who do use them to great accuracy). They have to, otherwise they go out of business. And that is the marketing industry. If you want the most accurate, non-politically correct, often uncomfortable facts about human behavior and trends, look into the marketing industry.

I'll say it again, there is nothing out there that indicates that classical music is NOT in a decline.

V


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Varick said:


> No I did not ignore it at all. All those internet sites where one does not have to purchase but can listen to also show far fewer people listening to classical music than popular (Rock, pop, top 40, R&B, rap, metal, country, etc). There is not a single stat out there that shows classical music is "growing" in popularity. It has been mostly static in Asia for the past few decades which is also the biggest market of classical music in the world, but there are still many indicators that shows it's decline there as well.
> 
> Sorry, but you would have to show me a macro-example of where classical music is growing in listenership, purchases, enthusiasm COMPARED to other genres of music to convince me otherwise. I've looked. There is nothing out there that says otherwise. It IS, unfortunately, a dying art.
> 
> ...


Well, duh. Classical music is less popular than popular music? Welcome to since-ever. I never said classical was "growing in popularity" or that it's just as popular or more than pop music. Folk songs and tunes have been more popular than classical, even when it wasn't off-limits to most people.


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

Chronochromie said:


> Well, duh. Classical music is less popular than popular music? Welcome to since-ever. I never said classical was "growing in popularity" or that it's just as popular or more than pop music. Folk songs and tunes have been more popular than classical, even when it wasn't off-limits to most people.


OK, I worded that wrong. Even compared to itself from say 30-40 years ago, or even 10 years ago. Pick a timeline. Classical music compared to ITSELF is in a steady decline and has been for over 60 years.

V


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Varick said:


> Yes, it's a witty quip of a line from one of my favorite minds of the 20th Century. However, conversely, as much as statistics are used and can be used in twisted contorted ways, there is one industry above all others that uses them to great accuracy (And there are plenty who do use them to great accuracy). They have to, otherwise they go out of business. And that is the marketing industry. If you want the most accurate, non-politically correct, often uncomfortable facts about human behavior and trends, look into the marketing industry.
> 
> I'll say it again, there is nothing out there that indicates that classical music is NOT in a decline.
> 
> V


Talk to anyone in the marketing world and they will tell you that half of any marketing budget is wasted, the problem is that nobody knows which half. The reason is that they have all these wonderful, hyper-accurate (that is sarcasm) statistics, but relating them to how people react is guesswork. If you doubt that, do some research on all the big failed marketing campaigns and why they failed.

P.S. Twain was 19th century, not 20th.


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## cimirro (Sep 6, 2016)

"making art" is "making art"
"selling art" is "market" - completely different things.

The market of classical music is dying - well, ok, yes!

The classical music is being composed daily and I know a lot of artists doing art right now.
Saying "classical music is dying" is a lack of respect with a lot of great artists (including me) who are working daily with this art.

If you do not know about these classical music being made it is because you do not want to research about it. The market will not show you my compositions - but if you wait the market to tell you what is good art, then we have a terrible problem with you.
So if you enjoy classical music, you need to be looking for it and internet is a wonderful tool for such thing.

And remember, if you like art, artists are people who needs to work for living, so if you enjoy someone's work, why don't you pay for it? You need to pay only the market? How many artists in the world would be happy to receive a request for a commissioned composition, a transcription, a choreography, a peinture, a poem, etc. 
Calling Beethoven "genius" is easy today... but, how about giving to the living ones the help Beethoven didn't had while living.



Varick said:


> My dear chap, art is often ruled by the market.


We have "media culture" "popular art" & "classical art".
Classical art is not ruled by market. 
If the Market decides to print CDs/Scores of some "selected" classical composers, that's all. But you can't say there is no other composers because they are not in the market. 
No one is "dead" because of the Market. Being out of market is normal, but the work made out of the market exist and must be respected.



Varick said:


> If less and less people are learning about classical music, then less and less people are listening to it, composing it, and performing it (all of which IS an irrefutable fact).


No, not irrefutable. How many billions of people we have now? how many were in Bach's time?
We have much more composers now. But we have no good classical market for showing such workers/works



Varick said:


> Also, be careful of calling all those who make markets "idiots who are unable to think."


No, I will not be careful. No money can shut up my mouth. I'm not servant of the market. I am an artist and I do what I want, and if I have no money in the future I'll live in the streets and no one will make me say "Amen" to the market anyway.



Varick said:


> YOU make markets.


No I don't. 
I can not select anything before it be included by the market.
So I can't buy something which is out of the market - no matter if it is a shirt or a tothpaste.



Varick said:


> Every time you choose conductor "X" for that Beethoven Symphony over conductor "Y."


I choose? Where? I want to choose myself as conductor, how about that? where is the orchestra for me, please, Mr.Market?
If I can't choose it, please don't tell me "you make markets"...



Varick said:


> Are you sure they are the only one's who are "thoughtless?"


If you believe in this market illusion, ok for you.
I can't... because i think...

All the best
Artur Cimirro


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

Becca said:


> Talk to anyone in the marketing world and they will tell you that half of any marketing budget is wasted, the problem is that nobody knows which half. The reason is that they have all these wonderful, hyper-accurate (that is sarcasm) statistics, but relating them to how people react is guesswork. If you doubt that, do some research on all the big failed marketing campaigns and why they failed.
> 
> P.S. Twain was 19th century, not 20th.


Of course there are failed marketing campaigns, because the execution of the campaigns were often failures. There are failures and successes in every industry, but the most successful companies and industries get it right much more than wrong which is why they are successful.

My response was more towards that witty statement of Twain (who did die in the 20th Century and that is often (in this case wrongly) what I think of when placing someone in a certain time. He certainly lived most of his life in the 19th) and how that shouldn't be used to win an argument every time statistics are used as if it applies to every or even most situations where stats are used.

V


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Varick said:


> There is not a single stat out there that shows classical music is "growing" in popularity. It has been mostly static in Asia for the past few decades which is also the biggest market of classical music in the world, but there are still many indicators that shows it's decline there as well.
> 
> Sorry, but you would have to show me a macro-example of where classical music is growing in listenership, purchases, enthusiasm COMPARED to other genres of music to convince me otherwise. I've looked. There is nothing out there that says otherwise. It IS, unfortunately, a dying art.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree with you. I have looked for statistics myself and had trouble finding clear ones that indicate the total listening to classical music. There are stats for orchestra ticket sales, and I'm sure some people can find state relevant to internet listening. Do you know if anyone has put all listening together to get a relatively consistent look at society's classical music listening over the past 50 years or so?

I agree with your comments on markets. People may be listening through the internet or other sources, but if money does not transfer to musicians, many will leave the field. The professional symphony in my city folded. Now we hear music from the community orchestra, but it is clearly not as good. My daughter, who is a graduate student cellist, worries greatly that declining markets for classical music will cause many fewer people to enter classical music studies and many fewer opportunities for musicians.


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

cimirro said:


> "making art" is "making art"
> "selling art" is "market" - completely different things.
> 
> The market of classical music is dying - well, ok, yes!
> ...


How is stating a fact a "lack of respect?" That makes absolutely no sense at all. Custom woodworking is another dying art. I do custom woodworking. Just because I do it, and knowing many people who still do it, doesn't mean it's NOT dying. By stating that it's dying is in no way, shape, or form disrespecting myself or anyone else who does custom woodworking. Wow.



cimirro said:


> We have "media culture" "popular art" & "classical art".
> Classical art is not ruled by market.
> If the Market decides to print CDs/Scores of some "selected" classical composers, that's all. But you can't say there is no other composers because they are not in the market.
> No one is "dead" because of the Market. Being out of market is normal, but the work made out of the market exist and must be respected.


I never once said or even came close to saying that there are no other composers. I have no idea what you are talking about.



cimirro said:


> No, not irrefutable. How many billions of people we have now? how many were in Bach's time?
> We have much more composers now. But we have no good classical market for showing such workers/works


Well, I guess it's the age old question: If a composer falls down in the forest and no one is there to hear it, did the composer make a noise?



cimirro said:


> No, I will not be careful. No money can shut up my mouth. I'm not servant of the market. I am an artist and I do what I want, and if I have no money in the future I'll live in the streets and no one will make me say "Amen" to the market anyway.
> 
> No I don't.
> I can not select anything before it be included by the market.
> So I can't buy something which is out of the market - no matter if it is a shirt or a toothpaste.


OK, don't be careful. Just demonstrate to everyone that you have no concept of reality and how markets work. Every one of us dictates the market. We vote with our wallets every single day. If no one buys a certain brand of toothpaste, then that toothpaste company goes out of business and is no longer part of the market. So yes, you DO make markets, *with every single thing you buy!* Again, just because you deny it doesn't mean it's not happening. Sorry to burst this fantasy bubble of a world you live in.



cimirro said:


> I choose? Where? I want to choose myself as conductor, how about that? where is the orchestra for me, please, Mr.Market?
> If I can't choose it, please don't tell me "you make markets"...


Wow, so you have never bought a CD of a certain piece of music where you had a choice of performer?????? That is very strange. But perhaps you don't own any recordings of any classical pieces. I GUESS that's possible, I just assumed you owned a few classical CDs. My bad if you don't.

However, if you DO own ANY recordings of ANY piece of music where you had a CHOICE of performer, then YES, you absolutely, positively, without question, inarguably, CHOSE in the MARKET of musical recordings. And you created more of a market for THAT PARTICULAR performer than any other performer for that piece of music at the time and place you made that purchase. Again, sorry to burst your bubble, but hate it, despise it, rage against it, fall down, bang on the floor and gnash your teeth, do whatever you want, but KNOW that if you buy ANYTHING, you are creating, sustaining, and contributing to a market.



cimirro said:


> If you believe in this market illusion, ok for you.


I don't have to believe in it. It's real, it's everywhere and it's reality. Same way I don't have to "believe" in the keyboard I am using to type this post. It's real, so there is no need to "believe" in it. And the brand of this keyboard is just ONE brand that is part of the market of computer keyboards that are out there for you, me, my wife, my friends, and family to choose from.



cimirro said:


> I can't... because i think...


Obviously, not very clearly.

V


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

mmsbls said:


> I don't disagree with you. I have looked for statistics myself and had trouble finding clear ones that indicate the total listening to classical music. There are stats for orchestra ticket sales, and I'm sure some people can find state relevant to internet listening. Do you know if anyone has put all listening together to get a relatively consistent look at society's classical music listening over the past 50 years or so?
> 
> *I agree with your comments on markets. People may be listening through the internet or other sources, but if money does not transfer to musicians, many will leave the field. The professional symphony in my city folded. Now we hear music from the community orchestra, but it is clearly not as good. My daughter, who is a graduate student cellist, worries greatly that declining markets for classical music will cause many fewer people to enter classical music studies and many fewer opportunities for musicians.*


One doesn't even need a sweeping totality of stats and numbers to see this reality. Your observation of what is happening with your own city's orchestra and your daughter's future prospects for musical employment is everywhere. Anyone who is even mildly coherent by what is going on around them in this industry, or could even be a casual observer, could understand what's happening in classical music.

I guess I'm just baffled how anyone, especially on this web site, could argue otherwise.

Good luck with your daughter. I find the whole state of the classical world sad. We are increasingly living in a culturally illiterate society (especially here in the US). Ask people what a Rubens is, and they'll tell you it's a sandwich.

V


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Hi Fan 66. You are describing myself. I have the same problem. I am friendly with one Lady who I can talk to but most of the time I am on my own. That's why I joined TC. Husband tolerates it (and even said that Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto is a nice Waltz!!!!!! That's how much he knows about classical music!!) but after a bit, he asks if I've listened to enough for one day. My answer to that is "No". Hope you will love TC as much as I do!


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## cimirro (Sep 6, 2016)

Varick said:


> How is stating a fact a "lack of respect?" That makes absolutely no sense at all. Custom woodworking is another dying art. I do custom woodworking. Just because I do it, and knowing many people who still do it, doesn't mean it's NOT dying. By stating that it's dying is in no way, shape, or form disrespecting myself or anyone else who does custom woodworking. Wow.


No sense? who make art? The art is not dying - the market of this art is dying... is it difficult to understand what I wrote?



Varick said:


> I never once said or even came close to saying that there are no other composers. I have no idea what you are talking about.


Well, I'm saying the composers make the art of music, not the market.
if the composers are not dying, but the market is dying... then? guess what? The market of classical music is dying, not the art...



Varick said:


> Well, I guess it's the age old question: If a composer falls down in the forest and no one is there to hear it, did the composer make a noise?


If the composer is living there and you like his art, why don't you ask him? Maybe he is not in the market, but he probably has a telephone and e-mail contact.
Maybe it sounds funny, to me it sounds like a speech of "capital decides" and "go to hell with quality - only money matters" a complete lack of respect from the wild capitalism to one human being (and believe me I'm not a Marx's fan) 
I care for the composer alone in the forest and I ask him about it... he is real no matter what the market says.



Varick said:


> OK, don't be careful. Just demonstrate to everyone that you have no concept of reality and how markets work.


I know how markets work and I understand the reality, but I don't need to say "Market is God" because TV says that. there is life and art out of the market. Maybe you are wasting too much time with cell phone tools to understand such thing...



Varick said:


> Every one of us dictates the market. We vote with our wallets every single day. If no one buys a certain brand of toothpaste, then that toothpaste company goes out of business and is no longer part of the market. So yes, you DO make markets, with every single thing you buy! Again, just because you deny it doesn't mean it's not happening. Sorry to burst this fantasy bubble of a world you live in.


When you buy something you just tell the market what you prefer from the list of what they offer you. You can not change their list. You are in the illusion that the people decides something for the market... that is a political problem, nothing I can do about it.



Varick said:


> Wow, so you have never bought a CD of a certain piece of music where you had a choice of performer?????? That is very strange. But perhaps you don't own any recordings of any classical pieces. I GUESS that's possible, I just assumed you owned a few classical CDs. My bad if you don't.
> However, if you DO own ANY recordings of ANY piece of music where you had a CHOICE of performer, then YES, you absolutely, positively, without question, inarguably, CHOSE in the MARKET of musical recordings. And you created more of a market for THAT PARTICULAR performer than any other performer for that piece of music at the time and place you made that purchase.


Well, I assume you probably can contact an orchestra and say "I want a recording of Maestro Ricardo Mutti conducting Villa-lobos's Symphonies", please send to my address because 'I make the market'!"

I can't do that. I only can buy the recordings which were decided by others to do...

But i'll make it easy for you... I can decide what I record as pianist, in this case I make a very small part of the "market" as you can see in my webpage. But believe me. there are not much artists like me who can decide what to play... if you serve the market you need to play what the market wants you to play...



Varick said:


> Again, sorry to burst your bubble, but hate it, despise it, rage against it, fall down, bang on the floor and gnash your teeth, do whatever you want,


i'm sorry, it is not my way of act, it seems you deal with children too much...



Varick said:


> I don't have to believe in it. It's real, it's everywhere and it's reality. Same way I don't have to "believe" in the keyboard I am using to type this post. It's real, so there is no need to "believe" in it. And the brand of this keyboard is just ONE brand that is part of the market of computer keyboards that are out there for you, me, my wife, my friends, and family to choose from.


The market is real I know that. The unreal is to claim you decide the market... I'm sorry Mr. Bill Gates... I don't think you have all this possibilities to "decide the market" - I AM NOT in an illusion about it.
But if it is true you can decide too many things as you claim you do, can I ask you why our musical world market is not a better one? Did YOU decided this way was good enough? If you can decided and choose, please help the artists who are out of the market a little bit... I'm pretty sure then you will hear their noise in the forest...

Now i'll go back to my not dying art which I made for living people - not for the market!

All the best
Artur Cimirro


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## Schumanniac (Dec 11, 2016)

Im 26, so.... yeah im alone and utterly disappointed at my comrades  Not that i mind it, music was always an intensely personal experience for me anyway.

If your not part of a musically sophisticated circle, im quite certain the other posters are correct in suggesting you needing to engage in communital hobbies like choirs, orchestras and musical studies to find likeminded to discuss with. Since we're seemingly inadequate to satisfy your needs for debates


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Classical music is dying.

Fortunately, so am I.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

There are some interesting debates going on here about the future of classical music. Perhaps I'll weigh in on those issues later (or perhaps not ...)

For now, I'll give a direct answer to the OP's question. I'm not alone. My career as a piano teacher and accompanist gives me many opportunities to interact with other classical musicians.


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## Fan66 (Jan 22, 2017)

Thank you all for your comments. In regard to the purchase of classical music CDs or the listening of classical music being down, I guess that could be true, I'm not sure. I still buy the CDs, why? Because I love the music of course, and, I would like to think that my small purchase goes to the artist who has dedicated their life to the wonderful gift he/she has been given and has developed. 

This may sound arrogant, if it does, please forgive me, but, if less people like classical music, that would not surprise me in light of the saturation of social media, smart phone apps, and the like. Classical music listening requires thought and attention. Since we now, however, live in an age of distraction, superficiality, and impatience, it would make sense that classical music is not increasing in popularity. For me, however, classical music opens the door to other worlds. It expands my heart and mind.  It touches and delights my soul. It also communicates the joys and trials of this human life. It is also a friend and companion. I am grateful that somehow my mother's love for classical music was passed along to me.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Well, when it comes to talking about classical music with people, I have the luck of music major friends and professors to talk about such things. However, on some of my _niche _topics rolleyes, I've been very alone in real life, my family not included because they only know things based off what I've taught them, not knowledge they've acquired on their own.

That is, until this past December. ^_^

Yeah, the funny irony that _Glazunov _would be the factor in bringing me together with this other guy right now. Then again, maybe not so ironic. It seems he was looking for that in a woman too, someone who cares about what he cares about, which includes the Russians. *sighs dreamily*


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

I've done just fine with classical for almost 60 years. Though my mom and dad were not heavily into classical music, they enjoyed listening to popular stuff from the 30s,40s and 50s. What wonderful songs those 1950s had: Lisbon Antigua, April in Portugal, The Poor People of Paris, The Theme From Moulin Rouge, Nat King Cole singing Stardust, Patti Page, Bing Crosby, Frank Sinatra, and many more. My mom at least opened the door to classical music for me. The first record she bought me was a Westminster of Tchaikovsky's Nutcracker Suite and Piano Concerto No.1, with Edith Farnadi as pianist. How could I ever forget the album cover, which had the face of a beautiful, green eyed blond. My next lp was an Epic recording with Paul Van Kempen conducting the Concertgebouw Orchestra of Amsterdam in works such as Rossini's Barber of Seville Overture, Johann Strauss, Sr. Radetzky March, Schubert's March Militaire, etc. From there, I took flight on my own.

While my wife has never been a fan of classical music, I've always received support from her in pursuing the hobby. She's the one who originally encouraged me to build a dedicated listening room, and there have been so many times she has pushed us to make trips to other states to look for "treasures" in thrift shops, and just have a good time. Before ever meeting her, I made a number of visits to Europe and Britain, where I frequently enjoyed attending concerts. It's been nothing but nice experiences with this hobby. Incidentally, my wife is always asking me what's going on with Talk Classical.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Becca said:


> I can't completely agree with this statement as many artists do their work strictly for their own satisfaction. If some like it, then wonderful. if not, too bad.


But even in this case I think the individual creating the work would qualify as being an art lover.


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

cimirro said:


> No sense? who make art? The art is not dying - the market of this art is dying... is it difficult to understand what I wrote?
> 
> Well, I'm saying the composers make the art of music, not the market.
> if the composers are not dying, but the market is dying... then? guess what? The market of classical music is dying, not the art...
> ...


Again, it's no illusion. It happens every day with all kinds of goods and services. People decided that digital pictures were better than film. Which is why Kodak went out of business. Kodak wanted to stay in business, but because they refused to adapt to what the people wanted (digital cameras and digital processing) and decided to stick with film, they went under. The people dictated where the market went.



cimirro said:


> Well, I assume you probably can contact an orchestra and say "I want a recording of Maestro Ricardo Mutti conducting Villa-lobos's Symphonies", please send to my address because 'I make the market'!"
> 
> I can't do that. * I only can buy the recordings which were decided by others* to do...
> 
> But i'll make it easy for you... *I can decide what I record as pianist*, in this case I make a very small part of the "market" as you can see in my webpage. *But believe me. there are not much artists like me who can decide what to play*... if you serve the market you need to play what the market wants you to play...


Wait, so which is it? You say you can only buy recordings which were decided by others to do, but then you say you can decide what you record in a very small part of the market. So not only do you get to vote as a consumer, but it also sounds like you can decide as a producer/performer of music. Sounds like you can do both.



cimirro said:


> The market is real I know that. The unreal is to claim you decide the market... I'm sorry Mr. Bill Gates... I don't think you have all this possibilities to "decide the market" - I AM NOT in an illusion about it.
> But if it is true you can decide too many things as you claim you do, can I ask you why our musical world market is not a better one? Did YOU decided this way was good enough? If you can decided and choose, please help the artists who are out of the market a little bit... I'm pretty sure then you will hear their noise in the forest...
> 
> N*ow i'll go back to my not dying art which I made for living people - not for the market!*
> ...


I do what I can. I buy classical music. I am in the dwindling minority who still does. So, I do my part as do most lovers of classical music.

However, I think I owe you an apology. I was under the assumption that you, Artur, were like most of us. Beholden to a system that forces us to do things in order to make a living ie: pay rent or a mortgage, pay for food, clothing, shelter, etc. I did not know I was talking with someone who, for whatever reason, has no such concerns. Can compose music that will never sell because it doesn't matter. It would be nice to either be independently wealthy or not care enough about myself or have the responsibility towards others where I would HAVE to make a living in order to provide for my family or go homeless.

I was once ONLY a custom woodworker, but the jobs (market) weren't there. So I adapted. General home improvement and construction supplied ample job opportunities. Sure, I would have loved to have ONLY done custom woodworking, but I was forced to replace windows, doors, build additions on homes, and do repairs. I had to do what the market dictated. I had to provide for my family. The people decided that mass produced crap from Lowes and Home Depot was better for them, than the quality of custom made woodwork.

I'm guessing, but I may be wrong (who know's she might be like you), but I would be willing to bet that mmsbls's daughter in order to make a living will have to play pieces (if she does get into a paying ensemble or orchestra) that the market has dictated will make money and sustain an orchestra and her paycheck. Either that, or she will have to find another job performing a different genre of music or another profession altogether because there are fewer and fewer jobs in the classical music world.

You are in a unique situation and I am happy for you. I don't often meet people who can do whatever they want or are willing to become homeless in order to live ONLY the way they want to. It must be nice. God bless!

V


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## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

Mostly, yes. Both my siblings are classical musicians so I usually had someone to talk to growing up. But outside of the home, I rarely found anyone who shared my passion. I disliked almost all popular music (and still dislike most of it) and was thus a nerd and a snob. People would make a point to tell me how boring "my music" was just to chafe me. I HATE country music, which is almost sacred in my neck of the woods. Thus I'm guilty of sacrilege. 
In college it's mostly changed; I've found many friends in the music department who love classical music. But a lot of them are burnt out from years of constant study and don't always like to discuss it in-depth. In addition, many of them aren't there for serious study of classical music, looking instead to become songwriters or church musicians. That's why I pick my professors' brains a lot.


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

Gordontrek said:


> In college it's mostly changed; I've found many friends in the music department who love classical music. *But a lot of them are burnt out from years of constant study and don't always like to discuss it in-depth. *In addition, many of them aren't there for serious study of classical music, looking instead to become songwriters or church musicians. That's why I pick my professors' brains a lot.


Funny how that is. I was in the music industry and managed many classical musicians and toured with many orchestras. Rarely did I see (or hear) the musicians listening to classical music on their off time. They were mostly listening to popular music. Kind of like all the sommeliers I know (knew). Get them out of the restaurant after work at a bar and all they want to do is drink beer.

V


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## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

Varick said:


> Funny how that is. I was in the music industry and managed many classical musicians and toured with many orchestras. Rarely did I see (or hear) the musicians listening to classical music on their off time. They were mostly listening to popular music. Kind of like all the sommeliers I know (knew). Get them out of the restaurant after work at a bar and all they want to do is drink beer.
> 
> V


That's exactly how they are, actually. What I meant was that they are burnt out from having to always study classical music in their formal education. On their own free time, few of them actively listen to classical music. I suspect that the vast majority of them prefer popular to classical.


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## cimirro (Sep 6, 2016)

Varick said:


> Again, it's no illusion. It happens every day with all kinds of goods and services. People decided that digital pictures were better than film. Which is why Kodak went out of business. Kodak wanted to stay in business, but because they refused to adapt to what the people wanted (digital cameras and digital processing) and decided to stick with film, they went under. The people dictated where the market went.


No, a HUGE investiment on marketing about digital cameras did it. Not the people who buy it. People buy anything you put on TV, no matter how useful or useless it is.
And the digital cameras were added in several other tools (like computer, cell phone, this is part of market evolution.
If you create "things" for market this will happens at some point.
Art is not made for the market. You can use it in market if you make something easy to understand to anyone. But this will never rule the art.
A Camera is not a Symphony, they are different things. (remember, I'm not saying if something is better or not...)



Varick said:


> Wait, so which is it? You say you can only buy recordings which were decided by others to do, but then you say you can decide what you record in a very small part of the market. So not only do you get to vote as a consumer, but it also sounds like you can decide as a producer/performer of music. Sounds like you can do both.


I'm not sure if I'm writting so badly or if it is too difficult to you understand something quite simple;

1) If I buy a CD -> I go to a "CD market" -> I will find there CDs -> all these CDs have tracks -> these tracks were decided by the CD label or by the player or by the manager or by someone who is not me.
That means: I do not have the chance to decide what they will record. 
No matter what I want - during 2017 there will be a lot of new unnecessary Chopin recordings (maybe I'll do mine too, why not... good market idea!)
I do not decide what the companies will record in their next CD (except If I'm a player and If I have a contract that allows me to do that 0 this last part is VERY important) 
Can you understand it? You do not decide anything before the Market decide what they want sell to you.

2) I'm pianist and composer - and you can see this just writing my name on internet - So when I record I can play what I want because the CD label accept and enjoy my work. I'm lucky for this.
Anyway that does not mean I can "make" something wonderful with the market. I decide what I can play and record, that's all.
I can not pay for interviews and propaganda on Magazines, Radios and TVs as the very famous pianists do.
In the end no matter if my CD is good. The CDs which will be sold are the ones with the biggest marketing - please don't try to tell me the public knows what to choose. I can give you a huge list of better pianists than the ones who sell a lot of CDs (I'm not speaking about me) who are "out" of the market in this exactly moment.
Again "market" decides what is sold.



Varick said:


> However, I think I owe you an apology.


Not to me, I'm inside the market (even if in a small part of it) you owe an apology for the ones who are working hard, have no space and are forced to listen a lot of idiots doing funny and ridiculous faces while playing badly in a concert hall and being called genius by an idiot public who can not understand the difference between Bach and Ramones. (nothing against Ramones...)



Varick said:


> I was under the assumption that you, Artur, were like most of us. Beholden to a system that forces us to do things in order to make a living ie: pay rent or a mortgage, pay for food, clothing, shelter, etc.


Ha-haaaa, now you can not change anything? the problem is the word?
"System" rules you - and "you" rules "Market" - wrong!
Time to wake up! System and Market are the same.
This system, that forces US (me included) to do things in order to make a living, is the same system that makes the market that rules what is "dying" and what YOU need to buy.

Yes, I need to work for a living - I do it as pianist and teacher when someone wants me to do so - and it is more and more difficult each day/month/year, so, believe me, probably one of these days I'll be asking you in teh streets: "can you give me a cent Mr.?"

But in my art - in my composition - no system and no market rules it for a single moment. the market can die, The ART never.



Varick said:


> Can compose music that will never sell because it doesn't matter.


Yes, I can and I'm proud of it. Thanks for explaining my life to myself.



Varick said:


> It would be nice to either be independently wealthy or not care enough about myself or have the responsibility towards others where I would HAVE to make a living in order to provide for my family or go homeless.


Well, the system (or was it the market?) told: you had to have a family. You decided when...



Varick said:


> I was once ONLY a custom woodworker, but the jobs (market) weren't there. So I adapted. General home improvement and construction supplied ample job opportunities. Sure, I would have loved to have ONLY done custom woodworking, but I was forced to replace windows, doors, build additions on homes, and do repairs. I had to do what the market dictated. I had to provide for my family. The people decided that mass produced crap from Lowes and Home Depot was better for them, than the quality of custom made woodwork.


I understand you, and probably you did what was possible. If you have children you have no other option. That means you are a true man. And for this you have my sincere respect.
Anyway I read in another post you managed orchestras, than the life now is much better for you isn't?
I'm another person, when I was young I decided I could not have children if I wanted to do what I dreamed.
I do not need to list here all the difficulties I had, and how much fight inside me were necessary to believe that every single day of my life was necessary to dedicate to music and study, and, as the poet Fernando Pessoa said, "living is not necessary". So I changed my life for my dream.
We are opposites - that's all.
I also deserve the same respect as you.



Varick said:


> I'm guessing, but I may be wrong (who know's she might be like you), but I would be willing to bet that mmsbls's daughter in order to make a living will have to play pieces (if she does get into a paying ensemble or orchestra) that the market has dictated will make money and sustain an orchestra and her paycheck. Either that, or she will have to find another job performing a different genre of music or another profession altogether because there are fewer and fewer jobs in the classical music world.


I don't know her. But if she believes in the same things I do, then she will do what she wants and she will find the way alone for such thing, as I'm doing. 
At least, no one will be able to point the finger in our face and say "You have it because I gave it to you".



Varick said:


> You are in a unique situation and I am happy for you. I don't often meet people who can do whatever they want or are willing to become homeless in order to live ONLY the way they want to. It must be nice. God bless!


Thank you. I prefer to die hungry than die inside my brain.

All the best
Artur Cimirro


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

cimirro said:


> No, a HUGE investiment on marketing about digital cameras did it. Not the people who buy it. People buy anything you put on TV, no matter how useful or useless it is.


As somebody who has been making photos and printing them for 60 years, this opinion seems -- well -- silly. Digital photography revolutionized the field in many ways, all of which are quite obvious. More people than ever can easily and cheaply get good pictures, and good photographers can take better pictures than they ever could before.


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## Lenny (Jul 19, 2016)

Being human is a dying art.

But I'm sure services like Netflix could produce quite accurate estimation of how much CM is being consumed these days compared to other genres.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Gordontrek said:


> That's exactly how they are, actually. What I meant was that they are burnt out from having to always study classical music in their formal education. On their own free time, few of them actively listen to classical music. I suspect that the vast majority of them prefer popular to classical.


Not in my experience. I've worked with four major orchestras and by and large the players listen to classical music because they like it.


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## cimirro (Sep 6, 2016)

KenOC said:


> As somebody who has been making photos and printing them for 60 years, this opinion seems -- well -- silly. Digital photography revolutionized the field in many ways, all of which are quite obvious. More people than ever can easily and cheaply get good pictures, and good photographers can take better pictures than they ever could before.


I'm in agreement with you, read it again please
There are 2 sentences I wrote in the other message:
1) No, a HUGE investment on marketing about digital cameras did it. Not the people who buy it. 
Because the public did not build a digital camera in their own way and asked the market to sell it

2) People buy anything you put on TV, no matter how useful or useless it is.
This is not about the cameras...

the next was:
"And the digital cameras were added in several other tools (like computer, cell phone, this is part of market evolution."

i'm in agreement with you


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

KenOC said:


> As somebody who has been making photos and printing them for 60 years, this opinion seems -- well -- silly. Digital photography revolutionized the field in many ways, all of which are quite obvious. More people than ever can easily and cheaply get good pictures, and good photographers can take better pictures than they ever could before.


I go along with that Ken I have been taking pics for 60 years started out with a Vito B, then a Canon etc (I even have a Plate Camera) my last decent one was a Nikon with lenses I did print B&W but not colour, any way I was against digital when they first came out and kept carrying the Nikon around in its bag it must have weighed about ½ ton, then when I retired I brought a roadster and had no room for the Nikon so had to get a small digital (another Nikon) and was amazed at what I could do with it and it would fit into my pocket, about 6 months ago I purchased my very first Smart phone Samsung J2 and this also takes good resolution pics and video. I just need a bit of pushing to get with it.


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## MadMusicist (Jan 14, 2017)

Fan66 said:


> It seems like, at my work, and within my limited circle of acquaintances, no one I know is a Classical Music Fan. As such, I reside in the glorious world of classical music, all alone. Do you experience this too? How neat it would be to gather with others who truly appreciate how classical music transports one to other places and somehow, brightens one's heart. Where does one find middle aged persons who like such amazing music?


I'm so glad you brought this up. Yes, I definitely feel alone sometimes. I actually don't mind going to concerts alone, but it's the thought in my mind that people around me are somehow "missing out" on such a huge chunk of the glorious human experience of classical music and are sometimes even blissfully proud of doing so (because they want to be "open-minded" and "just do what makes them happy" instead of being "old-fashioned or snobbish"), that's what makes me feel lonely. I find myself constantly having the urge to explain that classical music is not "one genre" of music but pretty much the entirety of Western art music, and that it has tons of precisely the thing that people think it doesn't have - variety. However, due to various experiences in the past, I have grown to keep my hobby to myself. It seems that sometimes things are easier that way.

This is why I'm so thankful to be in TC.


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## Poodle (Aug 7, 2016)

Doesn't this thread belong in commune forum?


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