# what makes a piece hard to conduct???



## Tarneem (Jan 3, 2022)

I heard that Mozart's pieces are hard to conduct because they are so perfect. each note should be in its perfect place otherwise the whole structure would collapse. and also hear that Brahm's third symphony is hard because of its ambiguity

but tell me guys... what do you think???


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

"Hard to conduct" has many nuances. From a mechanical point of view, Mozart is pretty easy to conduct. From a musical view it's hard: getting exact right balances, the style, the lightness and transparency. Compare it to the Beethoven 5th - the opening is so famous and yet poses so many traps for the unprepared or incompetent conductor. There the mechanical issues are rife, but that's about it: Beethoven's scoring took care of the rest.

Move up a century and music became more and more complex and conducting became a new profession. Nowadays practically all conductors can handle The Rite of Spring without a problem. That was not the case even a few generations ago. Nicholas Slonimsky re-wrote the score to make it much easier to conduct for Eugene Ormandy. Even Stravinsky re-barred some sections because he had real trouble with it.

Brahms 3 is a real problem: the proper tempo seems to lie right in that gray area between conducting the opening movement in 2 or 6. The former seems too hurried, the latter horribly slow. It takes a conductor with a great sense of rhythm and can convey it, keep it moving forward, to pull it off. Same issue with the opening of the 1st - is it in slow 4 or do you try to beat all 12 quavers?

I've done a fair amount of conducting, although I am not and don't claim to be some great interpreter or anything. Of all the things I've conducted the one thing that gave me more difficulty than anything else: Debussy's Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun. You have to beat the quavers and it goes on so long with so much rubato up against meter changes. You need a massage after doing it!


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

I was conducting the pit band for *Mamma Mia!* last night, the first rehearsal for a show that opens in 10 days. The pit band is drums, electric bass, guitars, and four keyboardists.

Generally I conduct from the keyboard, but opted to do a stand-alone gig for this one, as I wanted to absolutely certain the band be tight. I've not ever seen a musical pit with four keyboards before, and it just made me antsy.

It's actually fairly easy to conduct, as once a song launches, there are few (if any) tempo changes or ritardandos. I mostly cue beginnings and ends, and give a grander downbeat at the double bars. I'll cue some more complex rhythms and pickups.

*So what makes a work difficult to conduct? * Complexity is certainly a major thing . . . complex time signatures, frequent tempo changes or fluctuations. Polyphony can be a bear when you have to cue sections or soloists constantly.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Brahms 3/I is difficult - for reasons previously cited - also - it really needs to go into 2/bar to keep the flow, to let the phrases sing and connect - but the rhythms within the bar are tricky, and the sub-division must be clearly maintained. Conducting in 6 does this, but then it's too choppy and lacks the requisite flow. so it should go in 2, with the subdivision always clearly indicated....not easy to do...
Similar problem with Prokofiev 5/IV - it needs to go in 2 beats/bar - but the rhythms within the measures are complex and require extreme accuracy...again - maintaining the momentum and flow collide with clearly maintaining the sub-division and rhythmic accuracy...
Stravinsky "L'Histoire du Soldat" is of course a challenge because of the many, many asymmetric rhythms throughout...funny story - 
Loren Glickman [greart NY bassoonist/contractor] recorded this with Stokowski...Stoki couldn't manage all the asymmetric rhythms so he kind of beat time in some sort of 4/4 - the musicians simply listened to each other, played the rhythms written and it came off wonderfully.

Balance and clarity are always a challenge, whatever the repertoire....esp with the large late Romantic and 20th century works...the great conductors always spent much time in rehearsal getting this right....
Boris Goldovsky, opera guru, fine conductor, a Reiner student, had a neat way of putting it:
<<the conductor doesn't need to rigidly beat time in some stiff 4/4 pattern ["kapellmeister stuff"]....the conductor must look into the score, find the touches of genius, the little inside parts - a trill, a dissonance, an accent, that bring the music to life....the conductor must discover, and show what must be heard, what doesn't need to be heard, where is the music going, the big picture, the flow..>>


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Heck148 said:


> Boris Goldovsky, opera guru, fine conductor, a Reiner student, had a neat way of putting it:
> <<the conductor doesn't need to rigidly beat time in some stiff 4/4 pattern ["kapellmeister stuff"]....the conductor must look into the score, find the touches of genius, the little inside parts - a trill, a dissonance, an accent, that bring the music to life....the conductor must discover, and show what must be heard, what doesn't need to be heard, where is the music going, the big picture, the flow..>>


A good example of this is in the recent opera contest on Talk classical - the aria "Che puro ciel". It is about Orpheus (the Greek mythology hero) who is searching for his beloved Eurydice in the underworld, afterlife land. At the time of the aria, he is walking through the paradise section and admires the clear sky, birds chirping and the overal otherworldly beauty of the place (but still cannot enjoy it fully without Eurydice). The aria has a short instrumental introduction and later is accompanied by similar motifs. As you listen to the arias paired up two by two in 2 rounds of the contest, one conductor always brigs out that soaring heavenly quality to be visible, while the other one is just plays some music. OK, it might be subjective, but you can check those contests, @Tarneem , if you like opera.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Opera is a whole different problem and those who can manage them have no trouble in the concert hall. It's no accident that practically all of the conductors of the Golden Age of Conducting got their start in the opera pit. I conducted an opera once and that was the last time I ever wanted to. Pergolesi's La Serva Padrona. I was so young and green. The set pieces were easy. It was the recitatives that just killed me. Never again. Then came the chance to conduct the off-stage band in Act II of La Boheme. That was significantly easier. All I had to do was know the correct entry point, give a solid, clear beat as the band move onto the stage and then go home. Easy money.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

mbhaub said:


> Opera is a whole different problem and those who can manage them have no trouble in the concert hall. It's no accident that practically all of the conductors of the Golden Age of Conducting got their start in the opera pit. I conducted an opera once and that was the last time I ever wanted to. Pergolesi's La Serva Padrona. I was so young and green. The set pieces were easy. It was the recitatives that just killed me. Never again. Then came the chance to conduct the off-stage band in Act II of La Boheme. That was significantly easier. All I had to do was know the correct entry point, give a solid, clear beat as the band move onto the stage and then go home. Easy money.


Interesting. Because on this forum I got the impression, that opera is easier, or at least makes the conductor less exposed. People wrote, that the conductors should get their training in the opera pit and only later start with the symphonies.
But maybe they meant Puccini, which is a main repetoire, rather than Pergolesi. So do I understand it correctly, that La Boheme has both a normal orchestra and an additional small band, and each of them has a separate conductor ? I knew there were two, or even three groups of instruments in opera sometimes, but I didn't know they were conducted separately. Or do I misunderstand things ?
What kind of recitatives does La Serva Padrona have - dry or accompanied ? What is so difficult about them ? Do you have to follow the singer ?


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

BBSVK said:


> What kind of recitatives does La Serva Padrona have - dry or accompanied ? What is so difficult about them ? Do you have to follow the singer ?


 Opera is perhaps the most complex art form ever devised. If there are off stage groups an assistant conductor is essential. Someone has to get them to start at the right place, in tempo etc. 
La Serva has accompanied and with harpsichord (I conducted from the keyboard). The problem for me was the liberties singers naturally take and knowing (feeling) the right time to play the next chord or phrase. And yes, in that style of opera the singer rules. I was very much out of my comfort zone!


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## Tarneem (Jan 3, 2022)

mbhaub said:


> Compare it to the Beethoven 5th - the opening is so famous and yet poses so many traps for the unprepared or incompetent conductor. There the mechanical issues are rife, but that's about it: Beethoven's scoring took care of the rest.


yeah... I feel that conducting Beethoven's pieces is like jumping into a flowing river, if you know how to swim, you would be doing fine... just go as the flow and really trust the score


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## Tarneem (Jan 3, 2022)

mbhaub said:


> Opera is perhaps the most complex art form ever devised.


what I heard is that opera is a beast because the hierarchy is not very clear. in orchestral performance things are clear. the conductor is the BOSS. but in opera a conflict might occur between the musical director, conductor and producer, and may be some star singers would have more demand.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

In answer to the OP I would say it’s the inadequacies of the conductor that would make it hard!😎


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## Monsalvat (11 mo ago)

Also in opera people are moving around, there are the orchestral musicians in the pit below but also the singers above them on stage. I imagine it's a bit harder to conduct when there's a sword fight going on!

It was mentioned here by mbhaub that conductors used to start in opera houses and work their way up. This has a few effects: it 'weeds out' the conductors who can't handle the most complex situations, for sure. But also, working as a répétiteur _forces_ an aspiring conductor to become an expert on the voice, and how to work with singers. I think it helps (though I'm no expert myself) to always be thinking in terms of the voice: where to breathe and end phrases, how to make the voices in the orchestra 'sing', and so forth. Also, a keen sense of drama can be helpful in symphonic repertoire. At least that is my understanding.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Tarneem said:


> . but in opera a conflict might occur between the musical director, conductor and producer, and may be some star singers would have more demand.


Who is musical director ? Is it the same as stage director, who organizes the physical movement and acting on stage ?


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