# Who has beaten Mahler at his own game?



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

We know and love the music of Gustav Mahler for many reasons. Subtlety and concision are generally not among them. As we know, his symphonies average well over an hour in length, dwarfing those of both his predecessors and his contemporaries, to say nothing of the generation of composers to follow (we could see someone like Webern as an anti-Mahler, though interestingly, he counted himself a fan of the older composer's music and was apparently a skilled conductor of his symphonies). 

In the century following Mahler's death, it seems no one has tried to do what he has done: massive, intense symphonies requiring huge orchestral forces and in some cases larger choirs than virtually anything else in the repertoire. The average length of an orchestral work has greatly diminished since his body of work.

I'm curious, though. A century and then some has gone by since his death. Has no professional composer even attempted to compose symphonies or symphonic music in a similar vein, or even to top him? Was there anyone who saw his music as a challenge to be topped? I'm talking 3 hour symphonies, choirs of 10,000 that need to be performed in massive natural amphitheaters. Well, it doesn't have to be that. 

But seriously, has anyone written longer, BIGGER symphonies than Mahler? Is he pretty much the apex of that whole school of music? It could certainly be taken further. Of course, in his time, Mahler was ridiculed for perceived pretension, and since then, things have changed. Hardly anyone is still writing symphonies at all anymore, let alone trying to push the envelope in a Mahlerian way. But there are 7 billion people on this planet. Surely ONE of them had the ego to think he could do it bigger (if not better)?

Note that I am not looking for quality here. I highly doubt anyone could go beyond the scope of Mahler and still retain any semblance of musicality. Just curious, for the sake of science. 

Anyone?


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Side question, has anyone topped Wagner in the world of massive opera?


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

Havergal Brian’s Gothic Symphony, written about a decade after the death of Mahler, is an obnoxiously bombastic and “over-the-top”work. (This is just my opinion. Some enjoy it.)


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

If you have a spare hour and 40 minutes, give Havergal Brian's 1st Symphony a try, 'The Gothic,' written between 1919 and 1927. It's quite colossal and starts off with a bang:





The five minute abbreviated version is a 64 kbps mp3 file with reduced kibbles 'n bits.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Simultaneous responses for Havergal Brian's "Gothic" Symphony... Damn near 2 hours long... I think this may be a winner.

Is it any good? Sampling it now, but after just having finished Mahler's 2nd, I'm not in for the whole ride.

This man wrote 32 symphonies, apparently. Are all (or any others) among them to this scope?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Littlephrase1913 said:


> Havergal Brian's Gothic Symphony, written about a decade after the death of Mahler, is an obnoxiously bombastic and "over-the-top"work. (This is just my opinion. Some enjoy it.)


I'll second this. Lord knows I've tried, but I can't get far into that monstrosity. Brian seems to me an ambitious amateur, but I'm far from having heard all his works.

Vaughan Williams' first symphony ("Sea Symphony") is an expansive work with chorus and soloists, on poems of Walt Whitman. Beautiful piece, highly recommended.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Also Klenau's 9th Symphony, Hausegger's Natur-Symphonie and Pettersson, to name some of them.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> I'll second this. Lord knows I've tried, but I can't get far into that monstrosity. Brian seems to me an ambitious amateur, but I'm far from having heard all his works.
> 
> Vaughan Williams' first symphony ("Sea Symphony") is an expansive work with chorus and soloists, on poems of Walt Whitman. Beautiful piece, highly recommended.


Hmm, noted! I'm a fan of (what little I've heard of) RVW, it may be interesting to hear his music in quasi-Mahlerian mode.

@joen_cph, I am totally unfamiliar with both Klenau and Hausegger. Petterson I have heard bits and pieces of. I didn't realize his symphonies were that big, interesting...


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Joseph Marx wrote his Autumn Symphony in 1920-21. It's a long (over an hour) wallow in Mahlerian extravagence. Reinhold Gliere's 3rd, Ilya Murometz, is an 80 minute programmatic work along Mahlerian lines. But that was from around 1910. Around the time Mahler died, musical thinking was changing rapidly and works required huge orchestral apparatus were no longer favored. The excesses of the post-Romantics was in decline. Conductor Wilhelm Furtwangler wrote three symphonies, the second of which is along the Bruckner-Mahler ideal, but sadly lacking in originality or memorability. Korngold's only symphony was half a century out of date when it was written.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Allan Pettersson is, for ever will be the greatest symphonist, Been preaching this for some 5+ years now. 
Of course Mahlerites want me to acknowledge his debt to Mahler ..
The old line *w/o Mahler as the forerunner, Shostakovich and Pettersson may not have written their great symphonies*. 
I mean OK, I guess. 
Its like would Mozart have written his great syms , w/o Haydn's examples?
Who is to say.


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2019)

With recording technology starting to come into its own around that time, and the limits of what could be contained by the available media at the time, I wonder if this had an impact on length of compositions and size of orchestral forces?


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

flamencosketches said:


> (we could see someone like Webern as an anti-Mahler,
> 
> Anyone?


I am more impressed and amazed with Webern's less than 5 minute Op10, than I am with Mahler's hour+ long symphonies.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

paulbest said:


> Allan Pettersson is, for ever will be the greatest symphonist, Been preaching this for some 5+ years now.
> Of course Mahlerites want me to acknowledge his debt to Mahler ..
> The old line *w/o Mahler as the forerunner, Shostakovich and Pettersson may not have written their great symphonies*.
> I mean OK, I guess.
> ...


This thread doesn't ask who we think the greatest symphonist is.

Mr. Pettersson is at the wrong party.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> This thread doesn't ask who we think the greatest symphonist is.
> 
> Mr. Pettersson is at the wrong party.


Just thought the opening Q had inquired about any other composer of symphonies who may have beat Mahler at the symphonic genre...My bad, i'll scratch my post. 
Guess no one can understand that Pettersson is the greatest symphonist on this board except myself. 
maybe its just a ego thing I have and has no connection with AP as the winner over Mahlers long winded fluff.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

paulbest said:


> Guess no one can understand that Pettersson is the greatest symphonist on this board except myself.
> maybe its just a ego thing I have


Don't feel bad. No one here knows I'm Napoleon Bonaparte.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Here is Mahler's great 7th/Boulez/Concertgebouw

Then listen to the last 30 minutes (vid only offers final 30, which is a huge cut, but will serve the purpose of this post.
Now which sym has more emotional impact











Feel free to post your honest opinion.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

^^^ You're asking people to put in all that time for what purpose?


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

paulbest said:


> Here is Mahler's great 7th/Boulez/Concertgebouw
> 
> Then listen to the last 30 minutes (vid only offers final 30, which is a huge cut, but will serve the purpose of this post.
> Now which sym has more emotional impact
> ...


From what I'm hearing, the weight, the rhythmic pulse, the thickness of sound and texture of both composers is noticeably different, with a few exceptions, at least in these two examples, with of course both works being well orchestrated, though there is some similarity in mood or feeling, with Pettersson being more mysterious and somber and not nearly as gifted melodically as Mahler. After the Peterson was over what stuck in my mind was its sober somberness without any sense of motive behind it.

I find Pettersson worth hearing but I believe that he does not need to be pushed forward by comparing him with someone like Mahler. I'd rather hear what listeners find distinct and appealing about him with good examples.

I'm all for the Scandinavian composers. They're my favorites for modern and contemporary works and yet still so accessible, for the most part. But there is a certain Scandinavian bleakness and austerity in some of them that is not always cathartic and seems to point more toward personal isolation and loneliness, a certain sense of winter that can be heard but is not necessarily uplifting or inspiring. I'm not familiar enough with Pettersson to hear where he is with this as far as my own sensibilities are concerned. But unless there's some sense of light, moments of peace and tranquility, which Mahler has in abundance, I believe a composer's longevity and appreciation will be limited. Nevertheless, Pettersson does seem to be developing a following and has some of those outstanding qualities.

What I like about the Scandinavian composers is their bravery and courage to be alone with themselves in their own personal isolation, lightness and darkness, if they're feeling that, in what sometimes sounds like a winter landscape. They stand independently on their own, seem to go deep within themselves and come up with something worthwhile and original. Both composers often write long melodic lines as one of the possible similarities between them. I find Pettersson darker, more mysteriously tragic and ominous than Mahler in these examples and that he seems to take himself literally and very seriously. Still, his work is very well composed and is not without sensitivity and tenderness. With what I've heard so far, I consider him more related to the tragedies of the past than as an inspiration for the future in an important way: as a source of reflection and healing of the loses of the last century that so many lived through... Music closely related to loss and mourning but in a constructive way.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2015/feb/11/10-scandinavian-symphonists-not-sibelius-nielsen


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Give Von Hausegger's Nature symphony a chance. You can find it on Youtube. I don't think he "beats" Mahler or Bruckner at writing big symphonies, not at all, but it's a worthy effort in its own right. Also I found it to be better than it seemed on first hearing. The slow movement and final (choral) movement are quite spectacular.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Talking of length (rather than scale) there are many works by Feldman that are long ("For Philip Guston" is more than 4 hours), but they are not filled with incident like Mahler. And Terry Riley's quartet, "Salome Dances for Peace", is quite long at nearly 2 hours.


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## David Phillips (Jun 26, 2017)

Hmm, noted! I'm a fan of (what little I've heard of) RVW, it may be interesting to hear his music in quasi-Mahlerian mode. 

RVW disliked Mahler's music.
]


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

paulbest said:


> Guess no one can understand that Pettersson is the greatest symphonist on this board except myself.
> maybe its just a ego thing I have and has no connection with AP as the winner over Mahlers long winded fluff.


Could be an ego thing, but hey, you piqued my interest! I'm shortlisting his symphony recordings for this summer along Nielsen, Mahler, and Shostakovich.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^^ Well, good if that advocacy is leading to new listeners for Pettersson. But paulbest is wrong if he is suggesting that he is so neglected by members of this forum. He appears very regularly in the "what I am listening to now" thread. BTW the 2nd violin concerto is a good example of his art.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Enthusiast said:


> Talking of length (rather than scale) there are many works by Feldman that are long ("For Philip Guston" is more than 4 hours), but they are not filled with incident like Mahler. And Terry Riley's quartet, "Salome Dances for Peace", is quite long at nearly 2 hours.


If we're gonna go that route, La Monte Young beats out a lot of our contenders.

Lots of interesting posts here. A lot to look into. Thanks, everyone.

@Paul, re: Webern vs Mahler (I really didn't mean to imply any competition between the two greats :lol: but nonetheless) I couldn't agree more and I'll take any orchestral work of Webern's over any Mahler symphony, 9 times out of 10. This thread is really just for curiosity's sake. There is something in our times of the "push it to the limit" element where someone out there always has to be proving that something can be taken further. I was wondering if the Mahlerian symphonic tradition was any exception.

In any case, I have a lot to look into. I think the "winner" so far is Havergal Brian and his Gothic symphony.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Does anyone have an answer to my secondary question about Wagner? Surely he can't be the pinnacle of that tradition of huge operas...? SOMEONE in the 20th or 21st century must have thought "I could take it even further"...?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Stockhausen doubled it with his seven-part opera cycle of 29 hours Licht.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Art Rock said:


> Stockhausen doubled it with his seven-part opera cycle of 29 hours Licht.


That's right, I've read about this.

Any good? I'm almost totally unfamiliar with Stockhausen's music, and what I have heard I can't say I really understood much.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

flamencosketches said:


> If we're gonna go that route, La Monte Young beats out a lot of our contenders.


It may be easier with minimalism. Feldman's music is spare and operates over large time spans which is a little different. Huge open spaces. Epic in its way. And the Riley piece I mentioned is filled with variety and incident.


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## Boludo (Apr 4, 2019)

flamencosketches said:


> Simultaneous responses for Havergal Brian's "Gothic" Symphony... Damn near 2 hours long... I think this may be a winner.
> 
> Is it any good? Sampling it now, but after just having finished Mahler's 2nd, I'm not in for the whole ride.
> 
> This man wrote 32 symphonies, apparently. Are all (or any others) among them to this scope?


The later ones are generally short. Towards the end of his life in the early 70s he attended the world premiere of his latest symphony where both himself and the conductor (Stoko) were in their nineties.

I trust that the OP will listen to all of the long symphonies mentioned in this thread and will provide us with a blow by blow account.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Life is too short for 2 hour symphonies; unless one is dedicated to listening to a small pool of works and has nothing much else to do. The latter is fine if someone wants to do that, but really there's more and better things to do in life IMO.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

We know and love the music of Gustav Mahler for many reasons. *Subtlety and concision are generally not among them*.

Seriously? Is there any more subtle orchestration anywhere in music than whole swathes of Der Abschied?

And I can only think of one single movement in all of Mahler that I believe could do with any trimming down (Nachtmusik II in No.7 as you're asking!)

On Pettersson, he's the type of composer who I really ought to like. I am afraid, despite some effort on my part, I cannot get past the dreary and morose side of his music. Profuse apologies to his admirers, but -as they say in Sweden - C'est la vie!

Do try Vaughan Williams in his more expansive mood. The original London Symphony can be compared in some ways with Mahler or Bruckner, despite old Ralph's professed dislike for the former.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

eugeneonagain said:


> Life is too short for 2 hour symphonies; unless one is dedicated to listening to a small pool of works and has nothing much else to do. The latter is fine if someone wants to do that, but really there's more and better things to do in life IMO.


:lol: Agreed. I more so just wanted to know if they existed. I have sampled many of the suggestions in this thread so far and few have left much positive impression on me, but it is an interesting experiment, anyway.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

CnC Bartok said:


> We know and love the music of Gustav Mahler for many reasons. *Subtlety and concision are generally not among them*.
> 
> Seriously? Is there any more subtle orchestration anywhere in music than whole swathes of Der Abschied?
> 
> And I can only think of one single movement in all of Mahler that I believe could do with any trimming down (Nachtmusik II in No.7 as you're asking!)


With any great composer there will be exceptions to any generalization. Yes Mahler has his subtle moments, he also has moments of big fanfares announcing new themes/moods in a piece. Maybe brevity would have been a better word than concision. But regardless, he takes a long time to get his point across (though according to Bernstein, he actually DOES get his point across in the end, unlike Bruckner :lol: ) so I maintain that it's fair to say concision is not his strong suit.

I also have only heard less than half of Mahler's symphonies, so take my first impressions with a grain of salt. I'm a new fan.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Enthusiast said:


> ^^ Well, good if that advocacy is leading to new listeners for Pettersson.BTW the 2nd violin concerto is a good example of his art.


How I came to be introduced to AP, was over at GMG forum, back in ,,,oh 2002ish, one member mentioned he was listening to Pettersson's 2nd sym, there was one word he used to describe his session *harrowing*..hummm, I thought,,,I do like/love things that hold harrowing qualities. As at tat time I still had not many favorite composers in my collection, maybe Schnittke, just starting into Carter. 
I think it was the 7th where I began, its the sym everyone begins at. 
Just think, had that member not utilized that word, my interest may not have been piqued, and may have been months/yrs before I came around to AP. Which is OK, all things have their timings.

Larkenfield has excellent post above on how folks hear AP, very well descriptive of the fabric , textures of AP. . I'd be curious if some Mahler fans , upon hearing AP, how do they hear Mahler after the *Pettersson experience*. .
For me, the Sibelius idol pretty much crumbled, only his Kullervo stood tall and strong, with a the 4 Legends.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Enthusiast said:


> ^^ BTW the 2nd violin concerto is a good example of his art.


Pettersson's 2nd VC often gets overlooked, well even AP gets overlooked, he is perhaps the most notable *unknown composer*, But as mentioned above by larkenfield, he is gaining following, ever so slowly.
I would love to hear the great Hillary Harn makea recording in AP's 2nd VC along with Hahn in the viola concerto. UNREAL. Although I am not at all disappointed with either recordings of the 2nd VC. 
Its like 50 minutes, no breaks VC, intense, driving, takes tremendous challenges, superior talents to pull it off. Both recordings feature women violinists. It has been over looked. Considering Hahn has superior skills, The 2 concertos would be her biggest challenge in her career. , I am curious if she even knows of the work, or has even heard the name Pettersson.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Sibelius is great in my eyes. Why don't you like his music anymore? Too tonal?


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

CnC Bartok said:


> We know and love the music of Gustav Mahler for many reasons. *Subtlety and concision are generally not among them*.
> 
> Seriously? Is there any more subtle orchestration anywhere in music than whole swathes of Der Abschied?
> 
> ...


Everyone will have a different alchelmic makeup, so coming around to AP, one must have something already within which attracks, and not repels. I love RVW, his 4,5,6 syms, but also all others. I love Bryden Thomson's set which some feel is the finest complete set. 
One member mentioned in this topic.
*RVW did not take well to Mahler...*,,not sure how true that is, but it brings up a idea for another topic. 
*How did great composers react to other great composers...* 
If true, that's at least 1 great post Mahler symphonist who Mahlerites can not make the claim,,,*w/o Mahler, would RVW gone to compose his great symphonies?/*. 
Mahler was influential upon both Shostakovich and Pettersson, but that statement can be said for many minor late 20TH C composers. Landdaard , Hovheness, both seems not to just borrow passages from Sibelius and RVW, but outright steal, with no interest. I do not care for either of those 2, its like watered down Sibelius and RVW.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

For me, Mahler has been a long haul. As a teenager I loved the 5th (Barbirolli's recording) and on the basis of that love explored many of the others. But at first they all disappointed, except perhaps the 9th. In the intervening decades I have got to know and eventually to love all of them (except maybe the 8th). But getting to know them was a bit of an effort and the rewards as I was slowly becoming familiar (over 20 years or so) were not that great. For several of them I think I knew the music quite well before I got to enjoy it. But that changed and I started to really enjoy them. And now (again, a decade has past) I hear them as among the greatest ever. A Mahler symphony is still a big experience, a big treat, for me. I no longer hear them as messy or undisciplined or over-long or vulgar. They seem now to be amazing attempts at incorporating everything and to do this quite succinctly. For much of my life I preferred the almost classical Sibelius to the wildly romantic Mahler but I find the opposite to be true these days. Often finding the right recording played a big role in this journey and I still think that many recordings by generally reliable conductors fail. As for composers who out-Mahlered Mahler ... I think there are none and I am not sure anyone attempted it.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

flamencosketches said:


> Sibelius is great in my eyes. Why don't you like his music anymore? Too tonal?


Yeah, after encountering the 3 great great 2nd Viennese masters, then came into Elliott Carter, Shostakovich..,,,the music of Sibelius began to pale and lose its glimmer. 
I had several Sibelius sym sets, and noted how though 1 may have been superior here/there to others,,at the end of the day, his star had fallen in my sky.

I read where he had issues with alcohol and depression, and that partly explained why his syms, just don't hold my interest, also he withdrew into isolation,,and stopped composing. His whole story made me rethink his works. 
Sibelius is greatest when inspired by the folk lore of his land. His Kullervo continues to enchant me.
I have several recordings and like them all.

Only his 1st sym was my final passion with Sibelius, even that has died away. btw for the finest 1st sym, Stokowski's recording in 1976 with the London, is BLISTERING, and there is none like it. Perhaps Stokowski's greatest recording ever. The finest 1st sym ever. I know them all.
His 4 Legends I may also revisit, but its not on my list, I may still have interest in these tone poems, not sure. 
I was a Sibelius-ian long long ago.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Ralph Vaughan Williams on Mahler: "A very tolerable imitation of a composer." Half-hearted or luke warm praise at best. Composers very seldom speak well of each other because, whether they see it this way or not, they're always competing with each other and think their way is the only or best way. Maybe it is-for them.

Here are a few more choice insults that are on the wrong side of history because each composer that some other composer dislikes has been performed, accepted, and enjoyed regardless of anyone's scathing opinion: https://www.cmuse.org/harshest-composer-on-composer-insults-in-classical-music/

More with some duplicates: https://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/latest/composer-insults/bach/


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Blaise Pascal:

“I didn't have time to write a short letter, so I wrote a long one instead.”

That sums up what I think of Mahler's symphonies, even the ones I really like (5 & 6): He needed more time on most of them but the demands of his main career got in the way.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Larkenfield said:


> Ralph Vaughan Williams on Mahler: "A very tolerable imitation of a composer." Half-hearted or luke warm praise at best. Composers very seldom speak well of each other because, whether they see it this way or not, they're always competing with each other and think their way is the only or best way. Maybe it is-for them.
> 
> Here are a few more choice insults that are on the wrong side of history because each composer that some other composer dislikes has been performed, accepted, and enjoyed regardless of anyone's scathing opinion: https://www.cmuse.org/harshest-composer-on-composer-insults-in-classical-music/
> 
> More with some duplicates: https://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/latest/composer-insults/bach/


I was thinking of making a new topic on JUST THIS SUBJECT, after reading the RVW jab at Mahler.
Excellent links I will look over, Please make a new topic with these 2 minks provided, should be lots of fun to read others comments. 
Not sure if either link has something of Ravel's *lack of appreciation* for Bartok. 
I can only imagine Ravel sitting around the radio and on comes,,,,Bartok's music...making tounge-in0cheek witty snides and jeers, chuckling all the while.
One great to another, Both very opposite styles. Both geniuses. Wonder how Bartok felt about Ravel? Reciprocal? 
Please make a topic with your 2 links

Stravinsky in the liner notes to the Berlin Classics realse of his VC, has Stravinksy saying he is not at all impressed with any of the great VC's of past masters. That he preferred Schoenberg's as the finest.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

paulbest said:


> ...the music of Sibelius began to pale and lose its glimmer.
> I had several Sibelius sym sets, and noted how though 1 may have been superior here/there to others,,at the end of the day, his star had fallen in my sky.
> 
> *I read where he had issues with alcohol and depression, and that partly explained why his syms, just don't hold my interest, also he withdrew into isolation,,and stopped composing. His whole story made me rethink his works.
> ...


I may be reading this wrong but your response to Sibelius comes from what stories you know about him and this overrode your earlier enjoyment? I'm thinking of you fandom for Pettersson (the victim of disabling and constantly agonising arthritis who locked himself away and wrote a number of symphonies) and Schnittke (who fell victim to a succession of increasingly disabling stokes) suggest an empathy for music by the severely disabled. But then Carter was so healthy that he lived beyond 100.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

paulbest said:


> I was thinking of making a new topic on JUST THIS SUBJECT, after reading the RVW jab at Mahler.
> Excellent links I will look over, Please make a new topic with these 2 minks provided, should be lots of fun to read others comments.
> Not sure if either link has something of Ravel's *lack of appreciation* for Bartok.
> I can only imagine Ravel sitting around the radio and on comes,,,,Bartok's music...making tounge-in0cheek witty snides and jeers, chuckling all the while.
> ...


Schoenberg and incidentally Sibelius wrote some of the best violin concertos of the century, alongside Alban Berg's great VC. I like the Stravinsky VC too but wouldn't rate it with the others I mentioned.


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2019)

To answer the OP (_Cantejondo_sketeches), have you ever tried Schoenberg's _*Gurreleider*_?


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

EdwardBast said:


> Blaise Pascal:
> 
> "I didn't have time to write a short letter, so I wrote a long one instead."
> 
> That sums up what I think of Mahler's symphonies, even the ones I really like (5 & 6): He needed more time on most of them but the demands of his main career got in the way.


Blimey, just imagine what they would have been had he been unemployed! The Ring would have seemed like a bagatelle in comparison.

We would be saying: 'I'm going to listen to some Mahler dear...see you in a week's time!'


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> I'll second this. Lord knows I've tried, but I can't get far into that monstrosity. Brian seems to me an ambitious amateur, but I'm far from having heard all his works.
> 
> Vaughan Williams' first symphony ("Sea Symphony") is an expansive work with chorus and soloists, on poems of Walt Whitman. Beautiful piece, highly recommended.


Listen to the Woodduck my dearest Flamenkocketches! Unbelievable Vaughan Williams!


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

TalkingHead said:


> To answer the OP (_Cantejondo_sketeches), have you ever tried Schoenberg's _*Gurreleider*_?


Can't say I have. Is it a large scale choral/orchestral work of sorts?

I have been getting into Schoenberg's music quite a bit lately. That sounds worth exploring.


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2019)

flamencosketches said:


> Can't say I have. *Is it a large scale choral/orchestral work of sorts?*
> 
> I have been getting into Schoenberg's music quite a bit lately. That sounds worth exploring.


Oh it most certainly is!


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

Larkenfield said:


> *Ralph Vaughan Williams on Mahler: "A very tolerable imitation of a composer."* Half-hearted or luke warm praise at best. Composers very seldom speak well of each other because, whether they see it this way or not, they're always competing with each other and think their way is the only or best way. Maybe it is-for them.
> 
> Here are a few more choice insults that are on the wrong side of history because each composer that some other composer dislikes has been performed, accepted, and enjoyed regardless of anyone's scathing opinion: https://www.cmuse.org/harshest-composer-on-composer-insults-in-classical-music/
> 
> More with some duplicates: https://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/latest/composer-insults/bach/


This is an exaggeration! Mahler is GREAT composer! But, if you want my opinion, Vaughan is better than the Austrian. (music is something very personal after all).

*I liked many of the ''composer to composer'' insults. Especially Piotrs for Brahms is all the money. (also exaggeration).


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

flamencosketches said:


> Can't say I have. Is it a large scale choral/orchestral work of sorts?
> 
> I have been getting into Schoenberg's music quite a bit lately. That sounds worth exploring.


Yes, it's somewhat large. 

On the face of things, it's "not typical Schoenberg", it's a relatively early piece, composed before he went "all weird and plinky-plonk", a huge post-Wagnerian late-romantic choral giant, and actually a masterpiece in its own right. There are clues to the later Schoenberg in it, also in other great early works, Verklarte Nacht, Pelleas and Melisande, and you could say a gateway into his music?

The Brian Gothic really doesn't appeal to me in the slightest, over-inflated late Victorian guff, but you might enjoy the slightly smaller scale Book of the Seven Seals by Franz Schmidt?









Nope, not THAT type of seal :lol::tiphat:


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

CnC Bartok said:


> Yes, it's somewhat large.
> 
> On the face of things, it's "not typical Schoenberg", it's a relatively early piece, composed before he went "all weird and plinky-plonk", a huge post-Wagnerian late-romantic choral giant, and actually a masterpiece in its own right. There are clues to the later Schoenberg in it, also in other great early works, Verklarte Nacht, Pelleas and Melisande, and you could say a gateway into his music?
> 
> ...


Damn. That sounds like a fascinating work... going to give it a listen. Schoenberg continues to blow my mind.

Can't say i'm familiar with Franz Schmidt at all.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Grossly under-rated as a composer, is Schmidt. His Fourth Symphony is a poignantly beautiful gem.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

CnC Bartok said:


> Grossly under-rated as a composer, is Schmidt. His Fourth Symphony is a poignantly beautiful gem.


I like all of Schmidt's symphonies. Need to play them again as I've not listened to them for years (silly man)!


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

mbhaub said:


> Joseph Marx wrote his Autumn Symphony in 1920-21. It's a long (over an hour) wallow in Mahlerian extravagence. Reinhold Gliere's 3rd, Ilya Murometz, is an 80 minute programmatic work along Mahlerian lines. But that was from around 1910. Around the time Mahler died, musical thinking was changing rapidly and works required huge orchestral apparatus were no longer favored. The excesses of the post-Romantics was in decline. Conductor Wilhelm Furtwangler wrote three symphonies, the second of which is along the Bruckner-Mahler ideal, but sadly lacking in originality or memorability. Korngold's only symphony was half a century out of date when it was written.


That's true. I'll add Sibelius' "Kullervo" Symphony and Paderewski's "Polonia" (as well as Respighi's own solo symphony) as far as scope and complexity are concerned. Bax's Symphony in F is worth thinking about also.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

flamencosketches said:


> Side question, has anyone topped Wagner in the world of massive opera?


*Perhaps*:

Franz Schreker's "Die Gezeichneten" (The Stigmatized)
Karl Goldmark with his opera "The Queen of Sheba"
Rimsky-Korsakov with "The Invisible City of Kitezh"
Tchaikovsky's "The Enchantress"
Strauss' "Die Frau ohne Schatten"
Berlioz's "Les Troyens"

-->They are not, arguably, as massive as, say, Parsifal, Gotterdammerung, Tristan und Isolde, or Die Meistersinger (depending with you mean by massive, whether in terms of scope, complexity, nuances, etc.), but they can pose serious challenges to, say, Lohengrin, Die Walkure, Siegfried, and certainly The Flying Dutchman, Tannhauser, Das Rheingold, Rienzi.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

.....add Messiaen's St.Francis of Assisi to that list.


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## Boludo (Apr 4, 2019)

The version of the Sea Symphony by Boult / Isobel Baillie is my favourite. Worth a spin or seven.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

TalkingHead said:


> Oh it most certainly is!


Count me interested...

Who's made a good recording? I like the samples I just heard of the Ozawa and the later Salonen.

(Referring to Gurrelieder, here)


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

CnC Bartok said:


> .....add Messiaen's St.Francis of Assisi to that list.


The recording by Kent Nagano on DG is a real gem.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

flamencosketches said:


> Count me interested...
> 
> Who's made a good recording? I like the samples I just heard of the Ozawa and the later Salonen.
> 
> (Referring to Gurrelieder, here)


I have Chailly, who does a fine job. But anyone will rise up for the tribute to the sun, which closes the work. A few years ago there was a staged Gurrelieder at the Amsterdam Opera, of which 'Die Sonne' is nice to see:




If I listen to the prelude by Abbado in Berlin (



), I would however go for his one (recorded with the VPO), if my shelve was still empty. But you can't have it all


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## WildThing (Feb 21, 2017)

Hans Pftizner's Palestrina is another very "Wagnerian" 20th century opera. Quite excellent too.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Orfeo said:


> That's true. I'll add Sibelius' "Kullervo" Symphony .


I've heard over the years , when Kullervo was premiered , the EU critics , at least some, booed Kullervo, citing various weaknesses (whatever). 
I believed the rumors, so I discounted it, still kept some love for it, though not as much due to what the experts said.
Was a YT comment, that awakened me to the real significance to Kullervo, that deep dowjn I had sensed the experts may have misjudged Kullervo. 
I am guessing if the critics knew Kullervo made it to the EU concert halls, the beauty and power of the work may have dampened the local favs works. 
Perhaps Brahms, Dvorak, Strauss may have lost some shimmerings and gleamings with Kullervo on the same concert program. 
Just a guess, but i'm reconsidering that Kullervo is Sibelius finest work and is a masterpiece. I have several recordings, each is excellent.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Forgot to add in, so yes Kullervo beat Mahler at The OlympicSymphonic games. 
Kullervo gets the gold, Mahler the silver


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## Alfacharger (Dec 6, 2013)

A more modern work "2013" is Jack Gallagher's Symphony 2 "Ascendant". Clocks in at around 60 minutes. Here is the second movement.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

I'm surprised nobody has asked yet "has anyone written music more silent than John Cage?"


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

hammeredklavier said:


> I'm surprised nobody has asked yet "has anyone written music more silent than John Cage?"


Which version do you prefer? I am trying tgo find THE DEFINITIVE performance.
Please note the tempos in all recommends , Nothing too fast, nor too slow. Has anyone made any comparisons of all available recordings lately?

lastly, which is your personal favorite performance?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

paulbest said:


> Which version do you prefer? I am trying tgo find THE DEFINITIVE performance.
> Please note the tempos in all recommends , Nothing too fast, nor too slow. Has anyone made any comparisons of all available recordings lately?
> 
> lastly, which is your personal favorite performance?


There are actually recordings of this? Some people take the joke too far


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

hammeredklavier said:


> There are actually recordings of this? Some people take the joke too far



















Apparently the logical reason of being for 4:33 was not quite grasped by the music market, as they exploit it nonetheless.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

NLAdriaan said:


> Apparently the logical reason of being for 4:33 was not quite grasped by the music market, as they exploit it nonetheless.


Is there a "logical reason" for 4'33"? Seems it's merely a *copy of previous works*...


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Is there a "logical reason" for 4'33"? *Seems *it's merely a copy of previous works...


It may seem that way, but 4'33" is not a "silent" work.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

millionrainbows said:


> It may seem that way, but 4'33" is not a "silent" work.


Welcome back, old chap!


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Mahler was regularly beaten by Alma, so that he had to escape to his cottage in the Alps


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

millionrainbows said:


> It may seem that way, but 4'33" is not a "silent" work.


You mean that 4'33 lets us realize that there always is sound, heartbeat, a coughing audience, a birdwhistle or the noise of your stereo if you play your recording of 4'33 at full volume? There is no emptiness.

And indeed, good that you return after your own 4'33.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

NLAdriaan said:


> You mean that 4'33 lets us realize that there always is sound, heartbeat, a coughing audience, a birdwhistle or the noise of your stereo if you play your recording of 4'33 at full volume? There is no emptiness.
> 
> And indeed, good that you return after your own 4'33.


Thank you, Adriaan.

But strictly speaking, 4'33" is a piece for listeners, without "content" in the usual sense, who are asked to listen to the sounds around them. And you are correct insofar as there will always be sounds occurring.

I would argue that 4'33" cannot be recorded, as it is a performance work which requires the listener's participation. Any "recording" of it would therefore not quite be valid, even if it did capture those sounds at that moment. I think that Celibidache would agree with this as well, since he had a similar attitude to recordings.

As far as "who has beaten Mahler at his own game," it could be argued that the concert spectacles of Pink Floyd go a long way in that direction. Maybe Woodstock?


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

millionrainbows said:


> Thank you, Adriaan.
> 
> But strictly speaking, 4'33" is a piece for listeners, without "content" in the usual sense, who are asked to listen to the sounds around them. And you are correct insofar as there will always be sounds occurring.
> 
> ...


Excellent analysis of cage's 4'33.
Your other comment on Mahler beaten by heavy electronic concerts, yes the experience for us was *UNREAL*. But minus the electronics and the *juice*, would R&R have been as popular?
Could Hendrix make his magic work *juice-less*?
Obviously not. 
Few bands went juiceless, Moody Blues, Pink Floyd, a few others perhaps. 
Which brings me to a point of *the missing classical experience*.
We needa concert venue which offers great modern classical music, at least 3 days a week, with budget ticket prices. Where youths could hear our fav modern composers. 
I would believe the idea that many who can not *get* Henze on the cd experience, might very well night walk out the concert venue with a a big *WOWWW* in their experssions. Like we did when the Allman Brothers dida 5 hour concert at the Warehouse New Orleans 1970, ending at sunrise. *minds blown*.
I am not sure, but its possible cd MP3 experiences are not presenting great modern composers as they need to be heard. 
Classical fans back in ravel's day, would not accept a listening to Daphne et Chole on cd format, no they waould say, its not *the real deal*.

I say we 've been *had* growing up with rock, cheated. Take away the juice/heavy electronics, what do you have? 

Henze in concert may just open the doors to more folks becoming Henze-ians, like myself. 
Though the rock has now (with few exceptions like King Crimson's Epithet, a song I had missed out on, back then, and a few Moody Blues pieces, ELP's From The Beginning, I revisit for memory sake) rock now has no part in my life, I have the *real deal* now. I had no way of knowing Henze was writing *mind blowers* back in the 60's/70's and beyond. 
Now I know rock was fraud, it was Schnittke and Henze who we should have checking out. 
We need to bring our fav moderns to the youths who are following *alternative* (crapola) *music*.

Some of you here who don't *get* Henze on cd format, would become like myself, a bonifided Henze-ian

Het btw I think you may remember me from the old CMG site...
Glad to see you again.


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## rice (Mar 23, 2017)

hammeredklavier said:


> There are actually recordings of this? Some people take the joke too far


Apparently you can claim anything as art if you can keep a straight face.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

rice said:


> Apparently you can claim anything as art if you can keep a straight face.


:lol:

Yes but the *art* has to be pulled off w/o the admirers busting out laughing at the end 
there is risk factor involved

can you keep a straight face throughout a live performance of Cage's 4'33 ?
or do you wait to get in your car and ROTFLOL,,,the bathrooms after the piece, are full of attendees ROTFLOL


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

which brings up this thought which just crossed my mind as I was ROTFLOL
Humor is medicine,,i really feel good now after reading Rice's p[ost

and this thought now as laughter is medicine for the sul, this thought just came up,,there are quite a few major composers works, where I would much more prefer Cage's 4'33 over the old masters hour long symphonies. 
Won't mention any names,,,but those who know my rants, know who I am referring to


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

paulbest said:


> Excellent analysis of cage's 4'33.
> Your other comment on Mahler beaten by heavy electronic concerts, yes the experience for us was *UNREAL*. But minus the electronics and the *juice*, would R&R have been as popular?
> Could Hendrix make his magic work *juice-less*?
> Obviously not.
> ...


As to megalomaniac Mahler beating shows, just look at Beyonce. Easy as you just turn up the volume and use light shows Scriabin could only dream of. Beyonce in a stadium last year produced terrible sound. An all acoustic Mahler 8 a month earlier blew me away. So, yes, acoustics rule.

But Mahler and everyone since, would not have found recognition without the recording industry. Whatever Celibidache, whom I heard live twice (Bruckner) and on record of course only posthumously, but I think that the recording industry brings great music to a far bigger audience. And there will always be a recording of good music to which you can connect. Music like Henze's is more difficult to connect to, simply as there are not a lot of recordings to choose from and if you want one, you even have to search online to get one. And this scarce market creates high prices. I can find any top notch Mahler box for the price of one Henze CD.

My current problem with Henze is that I am at this moment trying to build a collection. You must be the man to help me out. I think I should get the recent Wergo Symphonies set, instead of the old DG set, as I think I will connect easier to the fresher, more energetic approach of the latter. Do you agree? The strange thing is that this Wergo boxset (released only a few years ago) is almost impossible to find in Europe. But I will manage somehow. I also would like the string quartets by Arditti, but these are really impossible to find. Do you recommend any other indispensable Henze stuff?

Maybe a good idea for anyone interested in spreading modern music: have Wergo drown the market with low price box issues on Henze. They will sell higher numbers and so they will earn back more from their recording cost. Otherwise Henze will stay in the shade forever.

BTW, I also grabbed a 14CD used Pettersson collection this week, which is on its way to me now. All thx to you guys:tiphat:, as I never would have gone looking for this music without TC.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Just wanted to report back that I've been listening to and greatly enjoying Schoenberg's Gurre-Lieder. He has beaten both Mahler and Wagner at their respective games (or at least proven himself a worthy contender... only to drop out of the race abruptly), and still ended up with quite a valuable work. Well done, Arnie. 

Why is this work not more well known...? Is it the bad timing of being released right as the tastes of the world were changing against what could be seen as late Romantic excess? That didn't stop Mahler from blowing up posthumously...

I also have been sampling and enjoying the RVW Sea Symphony, though not to as great an extent. Our local orchestra has released a very renowned recording of this work. I'm going to seek that one out.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Composers like Mahler and Beethoven are exceedingly popular in the realm of composition so people attempt to write in the vein of Mahler or Beethoven all the time, it's just not a popular amenity to have old music become a new trend so 99.9% of the people doing this are never popular or successful with reaching their music outward, but instead, common successful music must simply borrow _elements_ from these composers without copying their noticeable old phrasing styles. Similar to how you don't hear about 99.9% of any music being made, but it's there, and often the best and worst music is the hardest to find.

There is much great music written throughout the ages very similar to the popular composers, simply because millions of composition students literally obsess over their style and make it as their own. Search through archives of amateur composers (the ones that still even come up) and you'll see cloning and evolution everywhere. Most of these unremarked compositions or style-copies, for the past 100 years, have been lost to time or if still published online, they take a lot of search engine time to pull out.

Names like Beethoven, Mahler, are the names of the remarked inventors themselves, so due to being common linguistic strings, all associations with them remain (ie. their compositions.) This isn't true of 99.9...% of people alive, so hard luck finding one piece sounding just like another.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

NLAdriaan said:


> As to megalomaniac Mahler beating shows, just look at Beyonce. Easy as you just turn up the volume and use light shows Scriabin could only dream of. Beyonce in a stadium last year produced terrible sound. An all acoustic Mahler 8 a month earlier blew me away. So, yes, acoustics rule.
> 
> But Mahler and everyone since, would not have found recognition without the recording industry. Whatever Celibidache, whom I heard live twice (Bruckner) and on record of course only posthumously, but I think that the recording industry brings great music to a far bigger audience. And there will always be a recording of good music to which you can connect. Music like Henze's is more difficult to connect to, simply as there are not a lot of recordings to choose from and if you want one, you even have to search online to get one. And this scarce market creates high prices. I can find any top notch Mahler box for the price of one Henze CD.
> 
> ...


Enlightening comments here,,,I hope to partly address all your highly interesting insights, but may take several postings, it is 1:30AM here in new orleans and can't sleep,,,,
Yes I always felt the electronic/light show deal adds spice, flavor, even hypes the mundane. 
Sure Beyoncé connects to the femmine psyche ina way young girls can not resist. What about Carrie Underwood's song Before He Cheats..i mean there is a everyday truth which many young gals connects with, the song is hilarious, and its REAL.
The list could go on concerning why/how alternative/pop music has such strong pull on the worlds youths. 
Classical just is not going to go over well with the worlds youths. Just is not.
But as you say pull the plug on op music, solo acoustic performances, will not create the same magic. 
Like big mega church music, its all heavy duty electronic now, titillates the senses.

I've gone off the subject at hand, who has beaten Mahler at his own game? 
Many composers it is said, owe some debt to Mahler's genius. Can not be disputed. Mahler was like Stravinsky, a trail blazer in bringing new formations to classical structures (No I have no idea what I am talking about,,just repeating what' I've read over the past 30 yrs )

So the Q is, who represents music beyond the Mahler experience, and makes it even better than Mahler?
You mention Henze. 
I am not sure if Henze has connections with Mahler or not. Henze must have heard Mahler in his youth, as also he heard the 3 great 2nd Viennese masters. Also the great varese and the great Karl Hartman , both must have shaped many of his early ideas/experiences.
Henze was like Elliott carter and Schnittke, always absorbing past masters, one of which must have been Mahler.
So I get my dose of Mahler via Shostakovich and Pettersson. 
back to your Q's on Henze cd offerings. 
Yes the NOT complete Wergo set, as only offers the 10 sym,s not their complete recordings, is a bit of a rip off. Indeed Wergo should have boxed the whole deal together as one budget priced set. anyway the 10 sym set goes for $70 here in the USA, one seller may be the German site MONOX, which will only accept USA orders to ship. Perhaps the UK site has that set. 
Also the DG complete set is cheap, and that would be a greatb start.
I did not buy the complete DG, picked up only cds which I feel I need in my collection. The 6 sym set with Henze as conductor/DG I got for like $15, and also a few other DG, like Ondine 3 cd set for like $15. Better to buy the complete 15 cd set.

With Henze, you may not readily connect with much at the 1st listen. His opears are supposed to be his master works. I've yet to hear them, have some off label cds somewhere in my moving boxes. and when I unpack will explore his operas.

I notice EU prices on amazon can be high on some listings, low on others. 
The Henze SQ/Ardetti set, is nice, but not sure if I would suggest a *must have* at this point in your journey in Henze. Go to YT, stay with Henze there for a few months. As I say, it took my some 14 yrs to make the realization that I somehow missed *getting* Henze.

Henze is like Mahler, Either you *get* either composer, or you don't, No middle ground. Mahlerians know exactly what I am talking about. 
I would suggest you slow down on Henze purchases until you feel your cd budget can afford the asking prices.

Henze offerings stay high, as no one is dumping their Henze cds. Henze is a permanent cd, never to be dumped, Whereas with Mahler, there are countless recordings of all his works, so yes there will be plenty of dumpings going on, which makes it easy for Mahlerians to amass a huge Mahler duplicate collection, on the cheap. 
Box sym sets usually do not work for Mahlerians, as they are very picky as to which recording they like in every sym. They tend to only like this conductor in this sym, and another conductor in that syms.
With Henze, so far, all recordings are winners.

Henze is a phenomenon, that is, he can not be defined by any one recording. Which is wyhy I but any'/all cds, I am a completist in the few composers I love. I only have about 10-15 composers fully represented in my 300+ cd collection, 
That's it. My top 10 fav composer list, represents 90% of my cd collection. 
So that's how I would approach your Henze collection, wait for deals, and visit YT. There are 2 sites here in the USA which offer budget radio recordings of all henze's operas, like $10-$12, double cds, No notes at all. Sound is great. But not accessible to the EU I believe. 
I' bet Henze cds go pricey on EU amazon listings. 
We have Ebay here and one can find a few budget listings for Henze, like $5 + $3 ship, often FREE ship. Even amazon US has at times cheap listings , and at times with FREE ship, The rfree ship offerings I think is now over. I could not believe , I gota bunch of cds, with FREE ship past few months. 
So just only order what you can find on the cheap and wait.
But I tell you once Henze's popularity takes off, many Henze listings will jump, considerable,. Its onlya matter of time. Not sure why Wergo will not re-release the Ardetti SQ set. But they will, and prices will come down, as it s only a 2 cd set, I paid $43+ ship. Prices should be no more than $18 for that set.

It is not a *must have* for those new to Henze, , but it was well worth the $43 for me as a Henzeian completist. The 1st SQ is a youthful work, not anything I will listen to, his other 4 SQ's are wonder-full. 
Hope some of my ideas work for you in your journey to Henze.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Paul, I seem to remember you from Amazon, some years ago. I remember that you were into Pettersson even back then. I must say that you sound much more erudite! It's good to see you still waving the banner of orchestral music.:tiphat:


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

millionrainbows said:


> Paul, I seem to remember you from Amazon, some years ago. I remember that you were into Pettersson even back then. I must say that you sound much more erudite! It's good to see you still waving the banner of orchestral music.:tiphat:


OK, here is your welcome post.
Hey yeah, I'm still, never will give up classical, as its is a huge part of my life.
Why others refuse to follow into great modern classical, is a bit of a mystery.

I think you are of my generation, am I right?

Not sure what are your fav 20th C composers. I have expaned beyond Petterssojn and Schnittke, now into Elliott Carter. But maybe I was into Carter back in the CMG/GMG (can't recall which was the last site tag)
My latest 2 major discoveries are Henze (as you know by now) and ,,and,,,,SZYMANOWSKI, wow, major discovery there. can not believe I missed his genius...how was this possible?

Classical music is perhaps the greatest experience offered to man on earth. 
It is a art form which comes forth from the creative unconscious, which required, demanded great sacrifice, tremendous dedication, drudgery and hard labor of love.

We the few awake ones know its intrinsic value and makes our life here meaningful, That is we partake of this creative genius and thus rise above the current eon of tragedy, sorrow , tribulations of great woes.
Think about it, what is our life w/o great modern classical?

Good hearing from you.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

paulbest said:


> ...We the few awake ones know its intrinsic value and makes our life here meaningful, That is we partake of this creative genius and thus rise above the current eon of tragedy, sorrow , tribulations of great woes.


'Gurdjieff said, even specifically at times, that a pious, good, and moral person was no more "spiritually developed" than any other person; they are all equally "asleep".'


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

KenOC said:


> 'Gurdjieff said, even specifically at times, that a pious, good, and moral person was no more "spiritually developed" than any other person; they are all equally "asleep".'


 I would entirely agree, in fact this statement could have come from Nietzsche and carl Jung as well.
What Gurdjieff is aiming at is the old classical word, Gnosis, that is Wisdom. 
Which is a long forgotten form of life.
So, with the death of Sophia past 2000+ years, The great Eleusinian mysteries completely disappeared, we only have with us, living art forms. Which to us few rare moderns, hold dear our favorite modern classical composers, as though we are cast in a turbulent sea, at night, not knowing where we will find succor nor dry land. 
Being *good*, whats that?,
Our spiritual takes on new life when we are surrounded by the sounds from our favorite modern composers. 
Thus though we are dying, yet we live by their sacrifice and dedications.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

paulbest said:


> :lol:
> 
> Yes but the *art* has to be pulled off w/o the admirers busting out laughing at the end
> there is risk factor involved
> ...


I believe 4'33" was created with a live premiere performance at Tanglewood in mind, which means the sounds of a summer evening in the Berkshires. That is a soundscape well worth a few minutes of quiet attention.


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## MusicSybarite (Aug 17, 2017)

Taken from Wikipedia:

_Cuclin created a symphonic corpus containing 20 symphonies, and he was a representative of the monumental in symphonic writing. Some of his symphonies last the length of a whole symphonic concert (the twelfth, which is the longest, lasts 6 hours)._

Cuclin might be the king of the longest symphony ever, although it is not a proof of if it is worth listening or not! I suspect is the latter, though!


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

MusicSybarite said:


> Taken from Wikipedia:
> 
> _Cuclin created a symphonic corpus containing 20 symphonies, and he was a representative of the monumental in symphonic writing. Some of his symphonies last the length of a whole symphonic concert (the twelfth, which is the longest, lasts 6 hours)._
> 
> Cuclin might be the king of the longest symphony ever, although it is not a proof of if it is worth listening or not! I suspect is the latter, though!


Have any of his symphonies been recorded?


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

paulbest said:


> :lol:
> 
> Yes but the *art* has to be pulled off w/o the admirers busting out laughing at the end
> there is risk factor involved
> ...


Those who are there for 4.33 know that it's been been listed on the program to be presented at the concert. Concert programs are listed ahead of time. No one is there without wanting to be there. There are a number of performances of that particular work that have started off full concerts. There's nothing wrong with a moment of silence before the music begins. All music starts with silence and ends with silence, and it's about more than just hearing random sounds in the background. Cage simply made a point of it and I'm glad that he did. Those who can't sit still for four minutes and 33 seconds would be best to avoid such a concert where a few minutes of silence is honored as well as the music. He did nothing wrong. Both the LSO and BBC Symphony have featured it.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

To out-Mahler Mahler I think you need more than length and large forces. Mahler's ambition to include everything (about life, I assume) in his works ought to be the key. I can't think of any examples.


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## MusicSybarite (Aug 17, 2017)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> Have any of his symphonies been recorded?


Yes, mostly on LPs. Some of them can be found on Youtube.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Enthusiast said:


> To out-Mahler Mahler I think you need more than length and large forces. Mahler's ambition to include everything (about life, I assume) in his works ought to be the key. I can't think of any examples.


This brings up the subject, which composer stands in line as the inheritor of Mahler's inventiveness and structures.
I often hear how much Shostakovich has some connections with Mahlerian composition structure. Also same about Pettersson's music. Seems both have learned a lot from Mahler's style of writing.

So could we say those who love Pettersson, are like kin to Mahlerians. And that I get my Mahler via Pettersson?


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

How often have I heard the line
*w/o Mahler as the trail blazer, there would be no Shostakovich nor a Pettersson*.
Yet when I go to Mahler,,,i am waiting to hear the hidden clues to reveal the connections. .
anyone know which Mahler symphony best reveal these connective links?


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Found it!
Here is a Mahler sym which seems to be the in-spirit-ation for Shostakovich and Pettersson. 
Note carefully at 19:20 ..and especially the boy singing at 19:24
What passion, in the entire chorus. 
I do not know Mahler as well as most of you here, but I would say this Jansons/BRSO, might be the finest Mahler 8th on record. Am I right? Its a 2011 performance and I am not sure which orchestra/chorus can top this one.
Now I understand how Mahler shown other composers , power, passion, development outside of the older romantic models. Mahler was indeed the first to depart from Beethoven's super powerful influence. 
Paving the way for others to follow in that path of grandeur.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

paulbest said:


> Now I understand how Mahler shown other composers , power, passion, development outside of the older romantic models.


How outside? Mahler sounds extravagantly Romantic to me, and actually less radical than Wagner.



> Mahler was indeed the first to depart from Beethoven's super powerful influence.


Berlioz? Chopin? Liszt? Wagner?


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

paulbest said:


> How often have I heard the line
> *w/o Mahler as the trail blazer, there would be no Shostakovich nor a Pettersson*.
> Yet when I go to Mahler,,,i am waiting to hear the hidden clues to reveal the connections. .
> anyone know which Mahler symphony best reveal these connective links?


There are accounts that it was the influence of more than one Mahler symphony. Look to the Shostakovich Fourth to hear some of those influences, though I think it was mainly that Shostakovich expanded his emotional range and freedom because of Mahler's genius, or at least tried to but had to contend with Stalin's restrictions and disapproval that his music was "formalism." The performance of the Fourth was canceled, this in 1936, then withdrawn, and Shostakovich didn't premiere this symphony until 1961 until after Stalin's death. Tough being a composer in the Soviet Union!-



> The symphony is strongly influenced by Gustav Mahler, whose music Shostakovich had been closely studying with Ivan Sollertinsky during the preceding ten years. (Friends remembered seeing Mahler's Seventh Symphony on Shostakovich's piano at that time.) The duration, the size of the orchestra, the style and range of orchestration, and the recurrent use of "banal" melodic material juxtaposed with more high-minded, even "intellectual," material, all come from Mahler.
> 
> Aside from the entire second movement, one of the most Mahlerian moments appears at the outset of the third movement-a funeral march reminiscent of many similar passages in the Austrian's output. Another such point occurs near the beginning of the deeply brooding coda that follows the last full-orchestra outburst, with the descending half-step idea in the woodwinds clearly pointing to the A Major-to-A minor chord progression that characterizes much of Mahler's Sixth Symphony. [unquote]


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

The influence of Mahler on those who came later is not in the form of slavish copying. You have to think of the context. While most modern composers were going in very different directions (Stravinsky to neo-classicism, the 2nd Viennese School to Schoenberg's 12 tone method etc.) some continued with a sort of neo-Romanticsm, with big orchestras playing big works with an emphasis on tunes and so on. That is all that is meant, I think. As for finding all of Mahler in Shostakovich or Pettersson, forget it. You might as well look for all of Beethoven in Mahler. Shostakovich is Shostakovich and most of us know a lot of his music and understand something of the journey he made. Pettersson is Pettersson, an interesting and unique composer but at the end of the day a relatively minor one.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Enthusiast said:


> The influence of Mahler on those who came later is not in the form of slavish copying. You have to think of the context. While most modern composers were going in very different directions (Stravinsky to neo-classicism, the 2nd Viennese School to Schoenberg's 12 tone method etc.) some continued with a sort of neo-Romanticsm, with big orchestras playing big works with an emphasis on tunes and so on. That is all that is meant, I think. As for finding all of Mahler in Shostakovich or Pettersson, forget it. You might as well look for all of Beethoven in Mahler. Shostakovich is Shostakovich and most of us know a lot of his music and understand something of the journey he made. Pettersson in Pettersson, an interesting and unique composer but at the end of the day a relatively minor one.


All very enlightening posts above from Woodduck, Larkenfield and Enthusiast. 
Don't know how to follow up on such incredibly insightful commentaries. *Pettersson, interesting, unique, but end of the day, a minor composer*,,oh wait, *relatively*. 
Yes thanks for adding in relatively. Next to Mozart, Wagner, who would even think of mentioning Pettersson in the very same sentence. Ludicrous. 
Yet upon waking up here at 3:30 AM CTT. the thought occurred to me, I must write a friend who happens to be a Petterssonian, yet has musical depth, understanding of the art form. I must suggest to him, the need of someone to gather ina book form , all the relevant material out there concerning Pettersson's life, times and his music. I think there is one bio in print, but not translated to englsih, as yet. 
Also the thought of the need for a academy to be established, such as the one in Finland for Sibelius. I mean think about, a entire academy, studies, library full of all/everything Sibelius. 
I find after 35 yrs, most of those years,a Sibeliusian, that his music has not the same effects on me as does Pettersson, His syms are dull, boring, just not at all interested.
And if there is a academy based on his scores, why not for a composer who can not be known ina one lifetime, unless one be a musical super genius. 
So relative, yes, next to Mozart,,but then which composer can stand next to Mozart with a comparison in mind? :confused

Mozart always stands alone, in his own sphere.

I am not at all puzzled by your idea Pettersson is a insignificant composer. 
As I've stated often, Pettersson is the greatest ever symphonist. This will be proven to be true after the next 100 years transpires , with journalism, studies and emotional experiences of the classical community world wide. 
Mahler is too Germanic to becomea world wide sensation, , Shostakovich did carry the meanings, events of his time, He had to write under duress and extreme impoverished conditions, a environment which would destroy most people's creative urges, and complexly diminish the will to live.
Yet Shostakovich more than just survived, he crafted masterpieces in that hell hole of Stalinism. But he did escape unscathed, all souls inside Russia were brutalized by Stalinism.
My goal is to help champion Pettersson's music to a place where it should be given its inherited right.
If I have a successful financial future, my hopes are to help fund Pettersson projects taking place inside Sweden. 
I have many other hopes that I would like to materialize after I pass this world. I will need other younger Petterssonians to carry some of these dreams , hopes.
Perhaps a music library, with my stereo donated, along with my cd collection, and books.

I wish to be a anonymous donor in this project, both here and abroad.

All attention has to be about the genius which has helped all of us Petterssonians, to live yet another day.

This world is baneful and tragic, full of owes, woes and more woes.
Pettersson has been a succor and a balm , healing, for many of us Petterssonians. 
I hope to bring even more souls who are in desperate need of salvific music, which has power to dispel darkness and evuils which surround us on all sides,and this with a incessant incomprehensive steel like barrage.

*follow your dreams * is the old cliché. 
I will attempt to inspire others to keep my dream alive, that is a established Pettersson Academy of Muisc in Sweden, Offering bountiful grants to those whose only requirement, is their love for Pettersson's music. The grant will not be based on academic, tech considerations. More, much more a greater quality of the applicant , will be his passion to study Pettersson's music This school will not be like a few stuffy, EU and USA academy of mujisc, which sponsors wayyy to much old standard composers. This is one reason why we have such stubborn resistance to accepting much that has been The New Music , past 100 years.

The music schools propagandize the old standards to the point where no artist can make new discoveries. 
The music scholars graduate, w/o even as so much of hearing the name Pettersson, this after 4 intense years of study 
The thing is broken. 
Hillary Hahn will know what I am getting at here, once she hears Pettersson's music. *how did I,,how could I, have missed Pettersson ,,,will be her refrain. 
The mendacity of the establishment is what I will tell her is the main culprit.

So in one sense , Pettersson is insignificant in the great world of classical music, among the sponsors, the powers that Be. Yet in another sense, Pettersson is still in the womb, though his music is near the birthing process.
Christian Lindberg and all involved in this magnus work of The Pettersson Project are like the midwives. Yet like the birth surrounding The Christ, the music is being born in a humble pitiful place of refuge. A place where only the wise men can find the path towards this event.

It was inevitable , eventual, that Pettersson and I should meet up. I had been searching, seeking his music, all my olife.
That story alone would require a book length. 
Its now 4:30, my wife is clamoring, about the typing, the light on,,,opps, there;s more rumble coming out her way,,gotta run...….


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> How outside? Mahler sounds extravagantly Romantic to me, and actually less radical than Wagner.
> 
> Berlioz? Chopin? Liszt? Wagner?


Mahler, as ultra romantic? But not anything sounding like Brahms, Dvorak, , both are Beethoven's *kids*. When I hear some romantic composers , I get the feeling I am listening to a extension of Beethoven. 
Not so with Mahler. Well no, I see what you mean, I am in the wrong epoch, Yes Mahler completely broke from the old stodgy classical/Beethovenian models, and Good riddance, may I add.

Yes Mahler is outside the old, ushering in the brand new textures.

Great stuff.

I also love greatly most all of Szymanowski, so proof I am not completely anti romantic. So long as its good music, count me in.

RVW , neo romantic, love most of his great symphonies, again proof I cherish great music, as long as it is has enough greatness that holds my interest.

And Wagner, Oh yes, a revelation there, his chromatic melodies completely blew away both Ravel and Debussy upon hearing the great opera, Parsifal. Powerful chords throughout most of his operas.

Liszt, no doubt was a huge influence on the youth of Ravel. 
Chopin perhaps too influenced Ravel, so these 2 legends live on in something far greater, Ravel. 
Berlioz, again , you are correct, Mahler is not any 1st, except in the grandeur(huge orchestration/combined with huge chorus) of symphonic material, and bringing in something new, the length of a sym was now open for expansion to beyond one hour.

I can clearly see how Mahler flared and ignited the creative imaginations of many young composers. These composers borrowing ideas from Mahler, , but not the material itself, or only in tiny fragments, un-noticeable. 
As Enthusiast correctly points out above.

I wonder if someone could touch on the music of Szymanowski , as in any connection with the powers of Mahler.

I really love Szymanowski quite a lot. I know little about how//the influences surrounding his masterworks.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

As for Szymanowski, I've only heard his mazurkas for piano. Has he written symphonies too? Or is there some other connection?


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^^ Four of them, I think. The 3rd is choral and the 4th has a concertante piano part.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

flamencosketches said:


> As for Szymanowski, I've only heard his mazurkas for piano. Has he written symphonies too? Or is there some other connection?


All of his works hold some interest for me. I would begin listening to his masterpiece King Roger.

There is not a single moment where it is fluff, filler, gimmick, nor aridness.

Which sets this opera apart from every other opera within the neo romantic traditions. 
This same genius can be heard in all his works.


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