# Pieces that set the tone



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

It seems that there's a work early in each century that sets the tone for things to come.

In the 1700s, it was perhaps Bach's Passacaglia and Fugue in C minor (around 1710), which seems to speak of an orderly universe ruled by titanic but ultimately benevolent forces.

In the 1800s, it was clearly Beethoven's Eroica (compl. 1804), a vision of nobility, struggle, and heroism.

In the 1900s, it was just as clearly Stravinsky's Rite of Spring (1913), which Olin Downes called "the expression of one who is fundamentally a barbarian and a primitive, tinctured with, and educated in, the utmost sophistications and satieties of a worn-out civilization."

I draw no conclusions! But comments are solicited. Have we seen the piece that sets the tone for the 21st century?


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

In the 1600s it was Monteverdi's L'Orfeo (1609). Its popularity set the stage (pun) for the next hundred years of opera.

I think for the 21st Century it must be Justin Bieber's "Baby".


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Olias said:


> In the 1600s it was Monteverdi's L'Orfeo (1609). Its popularity set the stage (pun) for the next hundred years of opera.


^Not to mention the next 100 years of baroque as well.

It is too soon to tell about the 21st century, but I believe it will be the moribund / new birth era. Both academia and the pop music industry are being usurped by hobbyists in their bedroom studios, usually with droll results, but that is the case of all eras.


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## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

arvo part or hans zimmer.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Lady Gaga. The biggest revolution in music since the invention of the pipe organ.


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

CouchiePotato said:


> Lady Gaga. The biggest revolution in music since the invention of the pipe organ.


I know that i am gonna get slayed from this but she can actually sing&play her own music.
Also i find some acoustic versions of her songs quite good.

I watched an interview were she said that she is a classically trained pianist.


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

KenOC said:


> I draw no conclusions! But comments are solicited.


Since KenOC asked for comments, my perspective of the 1700s and the 1800s is that their civilizations are the ones which have been worn-out. Orderly universe? Heroism & nobility as a vision? These lofty aspects don't reflect human existence as it truly is. The orderly, the noble & the heroic represent what a subset of humans _wish_ should be the goals of all humanity.

Regarding the 1900s in hindsight from the 21st century, the so-called primitive barbarian composer is an individual who 1) makes no concessions toward humanity's skewered image of itself, and 2) depicts the contemporary human environment with ever-increasing sophistication.

Who will - or already has - set the tone for the 21st century? Most of us reading this post will not likely witness year 2100 to know for certain. I expect that female composers may outnumber male composers in the future and that musical development/progress will be inexorably linked with advancements in computer programming and technology.

Perhaps a recent work by Kaija Saariaho, unbeknownst to most of us currently, will surface to become a lighthouse beacon for that which is yet to come in this century?


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

This:


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

jani said:


> I know that i am gonna get slayed from this but she can actually sing&play her own music.
> Also i find some acoustic versions of her songs quite good.
> 
> I watched an interview were she said that she is a classically trained pianist.


My objection to her is not so much her as the public's reaction to her. People consider her outrageous and creative because she wears bizarre outfits. Really? They must not have been around 40 years ago when Peter Gabriel was wearing masses of pustules and alien bat wing headdresses. Yet his sound for the time was as bizarre as his presence. Hers - not so much.

Or maybe I just don't like that mainstream pop style. To each his own.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

violadude said:


> This:
> 
> [Concerto for T-Staick and
> two Laptop orchestras]


Yes, yes, yes! This exactly.


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

Weston said:


> Yes, yes, yes! This exactly.


It reminded me about the sound effects of Sci-fi/ Sci-fi horror games, but i have to give +1 for the idea.


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

A work can only set the tone for a whole century once historians have managed to create a linear narrative in which one particular represents a crucial 'breakthrough'.

Such linear narrative histories are going out of (academic at least) fashion.

Therefore it is impossible for a single work to set the tone of this century - because in doing so and in being so elevated it would automatically contradict the tone of this time.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I think most people like classical music because it offers an *escape* from the present age. That being said, the music which might represent the 21st century will either be despised for doing so, or offer a "solution" to the problems of the age.
I think Minimalism does both things. On its surface, it is repetitious and monotonic, necessitating that the players become "automatons;" yet, this same intense concentration, without losing one's place in the constant repetition, engenders a kind of "active meditation" from the performers, and a passive meditative, trance-inducing state for the astute listener.

For the critics, it's a perfect opportunity to say "Bah, humbug."

The works which best exemplify these qualities are:
Glass: Dance No.s 1-5/Music for Twelve Instruments
Reich: Four Organs/Music for Mallet Instruments/Violin Phase/Vermont Counterpoint
Riley: Poppy Nogood & the Phantom Band/Sri Camel/The Harp of New Albion

See also the film/DVD Koyannisqatsi.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Ramako said:


> A work can only set the tone for a whole century once historians have managed to create a linear narrative in which one particular represents a crucial 'breakthrough'.
> 
> Such linear narrative histories are going out of (academic at least) fashion.
> 
> Therefore it is impossible for a single work to set the tone of this century - because in doing so and in being so elevated it would automatically contradict the tone of this time.


I think we are in an age of introspection, where history as we knew it (as a linear narrative) is irrelevant. Therefore, I agree that the tone of this time is...more introspective, less linear.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

0:48

That's all I can think of.


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

millionrainbows said:


> I think most people like classical music because it offers an *escape* from the present age. That being said, the music which might represent the 21st century will either be despised for doing so, or offer a "solution" to the problems of the age.
> I think Minimalism does both things. On its surface, it is repetitious and monotonic, necessitating that the players become "automatons;" yet, this same intense concentration, without losing one's place in the constant repetition, engenders a kind of "active meditation" from the performers, and a passive meditative, trance-inducing state for the astute listener.
> 
> For the critics, it's a perfect opportunity to say "Bah, humbug."
> ...


Speaking of escape from the present age... I dunno about Riley, but most of the Glass and Reich works listed date from the 1970's. Not sure if they meet Ken's turn-of-the-century criteria.

Around 2006-7, I encountered a rash of (well...three) new to newish operas by Chinese composers, most notably Tan Dun's "The First Emperor" which premiered at the Metropolitan Opera . All were ostensibly Western operas but with strong Chinese themes and influence.

At the time, I thought I detected a trend, though so far it has yet to gel into anything. Still... the century is young. It is not without a little trepidation I'll propose "The First Emperor" and its West-Meets-East ilk as a potential tone-setter for the current century. Let's compare notes in 2199.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Cavaradossi said:


> Speaking of escape from the present age... I dunno about Riley, but most of the Glass and Reich works listed date from the 1970's. Not sure if they meet Ken's turn-of-the-century criteria.
> 
> Around 2006-7, I encountered a rash of (well...three) new to newish operas by Chinese composers, most notably Tan Dun's "The First Emperor" which premiered at the Metropolitan Opera . All were ostensibly Western operas but with strong Chinese themes and influence.
> 
> At the time, I thought I detected a trend, though so far it has yet to gel into anything. Still... the century is young. It is not without a little trepidation I'll propose "The First Emperor" and its West-Meets-East ilk as a potential tone-setter for the current century. Let's compare notes in 2199.


I'd say that's a good guess about what the music of our century will be about.

In a way, this has to go back to the Ravi Shankar recordings, and Takemitsu, and the Gamelan stuff by composers like Lou Harrison. But so far that stuff has been outside the mainstream, understood as something exotic or experimental, whereas in the relatively near future I'd bet that kind of thing is the all the rage. I'll guess that a few hundred thousand aspiring composers from Hong Kong to Harbin are looking up to Tan Dun.

Hey, and let's have a moment for the unfortunate Lang Lang and his recording titled "Dragon Songs."


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

For the 21st century - probably something like a mobile phone ring tone or iPad generated something er-other????


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

science said:


> I'll guess that a few hundred thousand aspiring composers from Hong Kong to Harbin are looking up to Tan Dun.


Saw an article recently that China is investing $10 billion in a "music city" near Beijing, with conservatories, concert halls, and all the rest. Watch out, world!


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

KenOC said:


> It seems that there's a work early in each century that sets the tone for things to come.
> 
> In the 1700s, it was perhaps Bach's Passacaglia and Fugue in C minor (around 1710), which seems to speak of an orderly universe ruled by titanic but ultimately benevolent forces.
> 
> ...


The last comment on Stravinsky sounds not only very self-conscious 20th century pedant, but manages to be pretentiously precious as well.... Perhaps it was written too soon after the fact than the others (unless seriously prescient, those writers and journalists who do end up begin quoted in these matters more often are writing from the clear view of hindsight 

For the rest, I believe they were accorded their position / status well after the fact, long after a proven track run of general popularity.

_Most importantly, they do not so much reflect what those ages were, but *do tell us what people from those particular earlier eras were longing for*._ -- i.e. the artist imagined something which did not exist, a 'utopia' of the day, as it were.

What was longed for within the era of course says much about the era and those who peopled it, but it is more like the painting or snapshot of the era where everyone is saying, "What is missing from this picture?" Aha! Cosmic Order / Nobility, Heroism, etc.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

PetrB said:


> The last comment on Stravinsky sounds not only very self-conscious 20th century pedant, but manages to be pretentiously precious as well.... Perhaps it was written too soon after the fact than the others (unless seriously prescient, those writers and journalists who do end up begin quoted in these matters more often are writing from the clear view of hindsight
> 
> For the rest, I believe they were accorded their position / status well after the fact, long after a proven track run of general popularity.
> 
> ...


The Olin Downes quote about the Rite was 1924.

Re these pieces waiting a long time to be recognized, here's a snippet from a contemporary (1806) review of the Eroica: "It is certain that this symphony is one of the most original, sublime, and profound products that music has to show for itself."

Re the rest, I think what you say is quite true. These pieces reflect what people of those times wanted -- and got. That's why they "set the tone" for music to follow, which was the original point.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

science said:


> I'd say that's a good guess about what the music of our century will be about.
> 
> In a way, this has to go back to the Ravi Shankar recordings, and Takemitsu, and the Gamelan stuff by composers like Lou Harrison. But so far that stuff has been outside the mainstream, understood as something exotic or experimental, whereas in the relatively near future I'd bet that kind of thing is the all the rage. I'll guess that a few hundred thousand aspiring composers from Hong Kong to Harbin are looking up to Tan Dun.


Don't forget that Minimalism has its roots in non-Western elements; Riley studied with Pran Nath, Glass with Shankar, La Monte Young, Lou Harrison; all harkening back to John Cage. I see them all as harbingers of the future.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

KenOC said:


> It seems that there's a work early in each century that sets the tone for things to come.
> 
> In the 1700s, it was perhaps Bach's Passacaglia and Fugue in C minor (around 1710), which seems to speak of an orderly universe ruled by titanic but ultimately benevolent forces.
> 
> ...


Regarding Baroque or earlier dunno, without looking at sources. Don't know off the top of my head, but Monteverdi sounds right for early 17th century, that turning point between Renaissance & Baroque.

I'd agree re Beethoven's Eroica being a defining work of the first half of the 19th century.

But I'd split the 19th century into two halves, since so much went on then. Prime candidate for the second half would I think be Wagner's Tristan & Isolde (regardless of the fact that I don't like him). For its musical innovations alone. Otherwise maybe something by Berlioz or Liszt. Hard to pick a single work!

Early 20th century again, heaps went on then, so Stravinsky would be one, Debussy another, Schoenberg another, Mahler, Bartok. Of those Mahler takes the cake for me for being so all encompassing in his innovations. Eg. influencing such a wide array of composers coming after him, from Schoenberg and the atonalists/serialists, to Shostakovich and Britten later. Today, composers like Australia's Brett Dean are still mining the things that went on in Vienna & Berlin early in the 20th century.

Second half of the 20th century I'd give it to Lenny's West Side Story. Mixing everything from serialism (the 'cool fugue' to jazz, Latin, operatic/musical, etc.). Like the American minimalists coming after him, he was more interested in what was going on his side of the Atlantic rather than in Europe. I definitely hear minimalistic/repetitive elements in Lenny's music (eg. the second movement of the Jeremiah symphony).

21st century (today) dunno, many of the 'greats' of the mid-late 20th century are dead - eg. we lost Henze and Carter late last year - some still around. But in terms of composers under senior age or under 50, I'd say impacts are being made in the classical-'other' blend category. Aussie Tim Minchin is one I like, but hey I'm biased. However he has had major success far from his home country. I see ours as an age where classical is being redefined, I think its future is not staying in its own ghetto - even though I like the 'highbrow' stuff as much as quite a few members of this forum - but kind of blending with other things, and this trend isn't new by any means, was already happening in Satie's time in a big way, but also before that.

These are my thoughts on this for what they're worth.


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

Sid James said:


> Second half of the 20th century I'd give it to Lenny's West Side Story. Mixing everything from serialism (the 'cool fugue' to jazz, Latin, operatic/musical, etc.). Like the American minimalists coming after him, he was more interested in what was going on his side of the Atlantic rather than in Europe. I definitely hear minimalistic/repetitive elements in Lenny's music (eg. the second movement of the Jeremiah symphony).
> 
> 21st century (today) dunno, many of the 'greats' of the mid-late 20th century are dead - eg. we lost Henze and Carter late last year - some still around. But in terms of composers under senior age or under 50, I'd say impacts are being made in the classical-'other' blend category. Aussie Tim Minchin is one I like, but hey I'm biased. However he has had major success far from his home country. I see ours as an age where classical is being redefined, I think its future is not staying in its own ghetto - even though I like the 'highbrow' stuff as much as quite a few members of this forum - but kind of blending with other things, and this trend isn't new by any means, was already happening in Satie's time in a big way, but also before that.


Interesting! I'd say one work that is often hugely under estimated in this kind of discussion is Berio's Sinfonia, they way he structured the piece and used quotes more feely than anyone previously, and the way he let the "choir" comment on the proceedings and the conductor has had a "huge" impact on music post the 1960's!

Another work that was an embryonic game changer for minimalism to appear was many young composers in the 50's discovering Gamelan music through Canadian composer and Ethnomusicologist Colin McPhee's work *Tabuh-Tabuhan Toccata for Orchestra*

/ptr


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

^^I forgot about Berio's sinfonia but yes, it was a major work of the postwar period. I didn't know of the McPhee piece and I'll try to get back and listen to the clip you posted. But what you said there makes me think of how currents outside of whats strictly classical - eg. ethnomusicology, or even less 'academic' enquiries into folk/traditional musics, which of course was a game changer earlier in the century with the likes of Bartok, Grainger, Copland and so on - and also more recently rock, jazz, even things like techno, have nourished classical music. American minimalism for one thing would not have happened without these 'extraneous' influences. & it also brings in how classical kind of went off Afro-American music, just like (white) rock n'roll did. That kind of colonisation of 'the other.' But I see diversity as being the trend going forwards from now, I think in terms of whats 'strictly' classical music, things have been taken to a kind of end point, a kind of extremity or point of no return, so its kind of a dead end regarding the 'avant garde' - it speaks more to me of the old ways, not the new and exciting ways, this more hybrid type of approach.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

Olias said:


> I think for the 21st Century it must be Justin Bieber's "Baby".


lol but to be serious there has been none to 'set the tone' since the late of 20th century.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

IMO electronic music set the tone for the 21st century, the good stuff that is.


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