# Festspielhaus Bayreuth



## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

We've just returned from a small holiday in the heart of Europe, and purely out of curiosity we visited Bayreuth, the Green hill & the outside of the Festspielhaus (No sightseeing inside is possible in March, but at least we saw crocuses flowering everywhere). Soon I hope to come forward with photos, but for now I'm interested in your opinions of this holy shrine for Wagnerians.


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

Bayreuth, going up the Green Hill towards the Festspielhaus 1875, designed by Richard Wagner. On the right & left: Richard Wagner Park. The streets in the neighbourhood bear Wagneropera names: Rheingoldstraße, Parsifalstraße, etc.










Right: Cosima Wagner Statue 1979 by Arno Breker. Centre: Festspielhaus 1875 by Richard Wagner & Gottfried Semper. Left Richard Wagner Statue 1986 by Arno Breker










Cosima Wagner Statue 1979 by Arno Breker


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

Festspielhaus 1875 by Richard Wagner & Gottfried Semper from the Siegfried Wagner Allee










Richard Wagner Statue 1986 by Arno Breker


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

Bayreuth, Festspielhaus 1875, Richard Wagner Platz


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

Festspielhaus 1875 Side Entrance










Festspielhaus 1875 Backside. At the back there is a storage for stage attributes, connected by a roof construction.










Festspielhaus 1875 - Backstagedoor


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

Festspielhaus 1875 - Backside with storage for stage attributes










Festspielhaus 1875 - The front is still under reconstruction.










Bayreuth - Green hill - Festspielhaus 1875 with flowering crocuses


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

Bayreuth - Wagner statue close to the railway station










Closer view up on Wagner Statue










Railway Station with Festspielhaus in the back. (On the advertising pillar only concerts with James Last...)


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

Thank you for taking the time. Bucket list...check.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Here are some images I took in August (Ring Cycle + Tannhauser) that I've been meaning to post for some time now.










A short theme from the opera played from the balcony signals the end of the leisurely one hour intermission. Seriously, every opera house should adopt the one hour intermission because it is lovely to both go to the washroom AND have a drink, and not have to pick one or the other. Some clever scaffolding hides the fact that the facade is undergoing major repairs:










The inside is actually tastefully ornate, more so than most will have been lead to believe from its famous reputation as a bland, sweaty dungeon. The seats themselves I found actually rather comfortable, on the bottom. What amounts to excruciating pain after 4 hours of sitting is the very low wooden backrest which seems specifically designed to torture anybody who would dare slouch or attempt to take in a nap during the performance. Do bring a cushion for your back!










Waiting for Tannhauser to start. Some guests were seated on the stage. Given that the stage action was rather inane, they have my sympathy. The acoustics from the stadium seating, by the way, are *everything* they're cracked up to be.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

The "silenced voices" exhibit, where one may read any number of gloomy plaques about the historical mistreatment of Jewish performers, just in case you weren't already weirded out enough knowing you're sitting where Hitler and his cronies once sat enjoying the very same operas you're seeing:










A place to stroll and enjoy your odd combination of champagne and bratwurst in what apparently passes for a garden in Germany:










The festival goes out of their way to accommodate international guests: "Pre-show talks". Then again, if you can't read this sign, you probably won't get much out of the pre-show talk.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

I have made my pilgrimage to Bayreuth in the autumn of 2013. I went on a guided tour inside the theater on the stage and into the orchestra pit, but I will not be there to see an opera until they begin to stage them in a way that is actually worth seeing. One remarkable detail about the house I got to learn about on the tour, was that on particularly hot summers the orchestra often wears t-shirts and flip-flops instead of regular suits. The temperature in the orchestra pit goes up to 40 C, and the audience cannot see them anyway. They hold a suit ready for the conductor when he comes out to take applause. A few nights later I had a dream where I was conducting a sweaty orchestra in t-shirts and flip-flops, passionately playing some of the best music the world has ever heard.

I also wanted to visit Villa Wahnfried, but it was under renovation. There was a big cardboard fence around it with openings you could stick your head into and see a big ditch in front of the house and a quite annoyed looking construction crew. I could still get to the grave of the Meister and his dog Rus, buried at his feet. The grave has no name or inscription, but everyone who comes there, knows who exactly lies there.

There is also a nice little park with some beautiful old trees that begins right behind the house. As my man and I wandered in it, there was a timeless feel about it, as if time flowed differently there, and as if, coming out on the other end you could get into the enchanted forest around the Grail castle, or to the shore of the Rhine where Valhalla stands, or to the deep primeval woods where Siegfried once heard the woodbird calling him.

Generally, the entire town is permeated with the spirit of Wagner worship, especially obvious in the year of his 200th birthday. Here are some photos of mine:



































The one before last is the Festspielhaus as viewed from the railway station. You can hardly miss it.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

This is delightful. An armchair tour, thanks to those who've been there.

At my age and with my income, I don't expect ever to visit Bayreuth. But I don't feel bad about this, given what Wagner's descendants have been doing to his operas. Of all theaters on earth, this should be the one where the composer's own conceptions of what his works mean are treated with the greatest respect, with the attempt to realize those conceptions in imaginative and powerful ways utilizing the latest theatrical technology. 

We'll see that, when direction of the festival is assumed by people with more reverence for Wagner's genius than his own family has.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Love it. Thanks guys :tiphat:


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> We'll see that, when direction of the festival is assumed by people with more reverence for Wagner's genius than his own family has.


I wonder if the tradition of the Wagner family managing the Festspielhaus will even continue. I mean, Katharina is unmarried and childless, and that is not likely to change (another one of these "career women"). When she dies, will there be anyone else from the Wagner family to continue, or will the Wagner bloodline completely die out?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

SiegendesLicht said:


> I wonder if the tradition of the Wagner family managing the Festspielhaus will even continue. I mean, Katharina is unmarried and childless, and that is not likely to change (another one of these "career women"). When she dies, will there be anyone else from the Wagner family to continue, or will the Wagner bloodline completely die out?


It might be a good thing if it did. Another great grandson of Wagner, Gottfried, has virtually disowned his ancestry and made it his life's mission to go around the world denouncing his family and making certain that the names Wagner and Hitler remain inseparable. It's obviously some form of self-flagellation, a penance for the dreadful burden of guilt he's bearing by accident of birth and must continually try to exorcise. He needs to prove that he's not one of "them" - those Wagners.

Obviously it's still tough to be a Wagner and it would probably be for the best if no one had to do it any more. Maybe only then would the ludicrous effort to "de-Wagnerize" the operas end. I'm not holding my breath, though.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

^ I think it is not entirely the fault of Gottfried or any other one of the Wagners. It is as much a fault of our screwed-up society with its even more screwed-up values, where the noble and the beautiful is put down, and degeneracy of all sorts is praised. If the world was right, the Wagners would have been treated like royalty and would have worn their name and origins with pride as they should. I actually start to get some respect for Winifred. She was tough and proud, no power in the world could break her.


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

I have to admit Couchie's photos are giving me the temptation to go this summer as there are still plenty of tickets for sale on the website. However I have my own personal Fricka to deal with...


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

SiegendesLicht said:


> ^ I think it is not entirely the fault of Gottfried or any other one of the Wagners. It is as much a fault of our screwed-up society with its even more screwed-up values, where the noble and the beautiful is put down, and degeneracy of all sorts is praised. If the world was right, the Wagners would have been treated like royalty and would have worn their name and origins with pride as they should. I actually start to get some respect for Winifred. She was tough and proud, no power in the world could break her.


I wouldn't quarrel with your thoughts about the world and it's values, but the case of Bayreuth and the Wagner family involves specific issues and the latest generation of Wagners isn't handling them well. Winifred doesn't matter any more, and history is history; Bayreuth was made into something it should not have been, but it has long since ceased to be that. Wieland's abstract productions of the '50s and '60s were, in addition to whatever artistic excellence they exhibited, a sufficient cleansing ritual, and now it's past time the theater was returned to its original function of actually presenting Wagner: not "old-fashioned" productions, but performances that allow the composer-dramatist to speak for himself - which he's quite capable of doing - rather than "reinterpretations" that say more about our hangups and fetishes than about the timeless, archetypal human situations that he expresses with penetration and power. That was, after all, his goal, and we should be allowed to decide for ourselves how well he succeeded at it.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

SiegendesLicht said:


> ^ I think it is not entirely the fault of Gottfried or any other one of the Wagners. It is as much a fault of our screwed-up society with its even more screwed-up values, where the noble and the beautiful is put down, and degeneracy of all sorts is praised. If the world was right, the Wagners would have been treated like royalty and would have worn their name and origins with pride as they should. I actually start to get some respect for Winifred. She was tough and proud, no power in the world could break her.


I think most people can agree with that premise, but then what one person considers 'degeneracy,' 'nobility,' and 'beauty' in art, politics, and music may not coincide with another person's ethical and aesthetic evaluations- especially when it comes to the staging of Wagner's great masterpieces.

I think as a clarification, one should state what type of productions and directors one is _for_- like in Woodduck's post above.


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

*Cosima Wagner Buste 1979 by Arno Breker*


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

My thanks too. Never got to Bayreuth; still a remote possibility.
Intrigued by the statue near the railway station. He looks like Alberich, squat and with ultra long arms. I presume this is a photographic distortion of foreshortening rather than a horror of a statue?


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Such great pictures in this thread.
Thank you SL, Couchie and Txllxt. :tiphat:


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

*Bayreuth - Grüner Hügel - Richard Wagner Buste 1986 by Arno Breker*


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

*Souvenirs for Wagnerians*










In Bayreuth one may find nice souvenirs for Wagnerians. When you adore Wagner, which street would you like the most to be yours?


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

TxllxT said:


> In Bayreuth one may find nice souvenirs for Wagnerians. When you adore Wagner, which street would you like the most to be yours?


I'll take any one of them. :tiphat:


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Wonder how things are going at the festival ?


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Couchie said:


> The festival goes out of their way to accommodate international guests: "Pre-show talks". Then again, if you can't read this sign, you probably won't get much out of the pre-show talk.


"Inszenierungsbezogene Einführungsvorträge" - pre-show talks concerning the staging. I really, really love that language


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Off to Bayreuth for the first time this summer, going to see Dutchman, Tristan and Isolde, been queuing for 7 years so it's really exciting.

N.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

The Conte said:


> Off to Bayreuth for the first time this summer, going to see Dutchman, Tristan and Isolde, been queuing for 7 years so it's really exciting.


I hope to catch Tristan and Götterdämmerung this year. I'll be at Bayreuth from 14-18 Aug, if anyone's in town and fancies a chat and some civilised drinkies.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Where's the 'envy' button for me to click? 

I'm not patient enough to queue for 7 years, but I'll be checking to see whether some online booking occurs this year. If so, I'll be very tempted to take the plunge, depending on the opera and production on offer.


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

One my time wil come. Enjoy.


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

Looking forward to going there this summer for the first time to see the Ring.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Don Fatale said:


> Where's the 'envy' button for me to click?
> 
> I'm not patient enough to queue for 7 years, but I'll be checking to see whether some online booking occurs this year. If so, I'll be very tempted to take the plunge, depending on the opera and production on offer.


Me too, being queuing for eight years now


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Don Fatale said:


> Where's the 'envy' button for me to click?
> 
> I'm not patient enough to queue for 7 years, but I'll be checking to see whether some online booking occurs this year. If so, I'll be very tempted to take the plunge, depending on the opera and production on offer.


A colleague of mine did the online booking last year and ended up seeing two operas there having never had any contact with the booking office before (and so it is possible to get in without queuing for years). I think this year's programme is very rich (a ring cycle AND Tristan AND Parsifal) so if you can it is worth it. I hope there is something on offer in the online booking that isn't too bonkers for you production-wise.

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Pugg said:


> Me too, being queuing for eight years now


And you weren't successful this time round?

I don't know of anyone who has been queuing for nine years, so you must be at the top of the list for next year's festival.

It really is worth the wait, it's the highlight of my operatic year, but I have wanted to do it for so long that in itself makes it so exciting.

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

jflatter said:


> Looking forward to going there this summer for the first time to see the Ring.


When we put in our booking form we opted for Dutchman, Tristan and Parsifal as we liked the casts and conductors for those more than the ones for the Ring. However, I'm very envious as, of course, seeing a Ring cycle at Bayreuth is unmissable for Wagner fans.

N.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

The Conte said:


> And you weren't successful this time round?
> 
> I don't know of anyone who has been queuing for nine years, so you must be at the top of the list for next year's festival.
> 
> ...


I received a original letter ( no e mail) and alas no;
We liked to have seen the Ring and Tristan.

But your tip for on line booking is warn welcomed, I am going to give it a try, thank you very much for bringing that up :tiphat:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Frankly with some of the stuff and nonsense we hear of going on stage at Bayreuth I don't envy anyone going there!


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

[/QUOTE]When we put in our booking form we opted for Dutchman, Tristan and Parsifal as we liked the casts and conductors for those more than the ones for the Ring. However, I'm very envious as, of course, seeing a Ring cycle at Bayreuth is unmissable for Wagner fans.


> I got it during the online sale last week. I also originally wanted Tristan and/or Parsifal but they were all sold out. Keep an eye on the website for returns though.


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## Morton (Nov 13, 2016)

After trying to get tickets to Parsifal for the past three years without success, I managed to get a couple of tickets last Sunday when online instant booking opened. All operas are now sold out.
This is my first visit to Bayreuth, so very excited, and any tips from more seasoned visitors would be most welcome.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Morton said:


> After trying to get tickets to Parsifal for the past three years without success, I managed to get a couple of tickets last Sunday when online instant booking opened. All operas are now sold out.
> This is my first visit to Bayreuth, so very excited, and any tips from more seasoned visitors would be most welcome.


Wonderful news! I'm going to Lohengrin and Meistersinger, which I haven't seen at Bayreuth, so lots to look forward to. Do let me know what types of tips you'd like. Off the top of my head, I would say (if you can) walk up the green hill to see the performance, there is something special about approaching the opera house that way. Get there early (an hour before the performance?) so that you have plenty of time to look around, use the toilets, get a programme etc. There is a stall and kiosk with a range of CDs, DVDs and books over the road from the festspielhaus, so you may want to look around that as well.

Let me know if you would like to know anything more.

N.


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## Morton (Nov 13, 2016)

The Conte said:


> Wonderful news! I'm going to Lohengrin and Meistersinger, which I haven't seen at Bayreuth, so lots to look forward to. Do let me know what types of tips you'd like. Off the top of my head, I would say (if you can) walk up the green hill to see the performance, there is something special about approaching the opera house that way. Get there early (an hour before the performance?) so that you have plenty of time to look around, use the toilets, get a programme etc. There is a stall and kiosk with a range of CDs, DVDs and books over the road from the festspielhaus, so you may want to look around that as well.
> 
> Let me know if you would like to know anything more.
> 
> N.


Thanks, on a practical note I was wondering about interval food, is it best to book or it a general bun fight?


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## kineno (Jan 24, 2015)

Morton said:


> Thanks, on a practical note I was wondering about interval food, is it best to book or it a general bun fight?


I had Bratwurst and beer; you just need to walk up to a window and order.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Morton said:


> Thanks, on a practical note I was wondering about interval food, is it best to book or it a general bun fight?


There's a range of options. There's a beer and sausage stand and a bar that has some snacks. No need to order there as the service is really quick and the intervals long. There is also a cafeteria which does some savory snacks and wonderful cakes, again, no need to order, there are plenty of seats and tables and you have a lot of time with the intervals.

There are also more expensive options if you want to make an occasion of it. I think you can order a picnic and eat it in the grounds (I don't know any of the details as I've never done that). There's also a restaurant. I wasn't impressed with the meal last year, but the year before it was very good.

Last year they started a 'VIP' room at quite a cost. Called the Ring Lounge you pay a flat rate for as many drinks and as much food as you want. The lounge is open pre show, during the intervals and after the performance when you will be joined by some of the performances' singers.

Whichever option you go for the food and drink in general is very good.

N.


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## Morton (Nov 13, 2016)

The Conte said:


> There's a range of options. There's a beer and sausage stand and a bar that has some snacks. No need to order there as the service is really quick and the intervals long. There is also a cafeteria which does some savory snacks and wonderful cakes, again, no need to order, there are plenty of seats and tables and you have a lot of time with the intervals.
> 
> There are also more expensive options if you want to make an occasion of it. I think you can order a picnic and eat it in the grounds (I don't know any of the details as I've never done that). There's also a restaurant. I wasn't impressed with the meal last year, but the year before it was very good.
> 
> ...


Thanks very much for your helpful reply, it will definitely be an occasion, so depending on the weather, we will either have a picnic or restaurant meal.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Morton said:


> Thanks very much for your helpful reply, it will definitely be an occasion, so depending on the weather, we will either have a picnic or restaurant meal.


I think you have to book in advance for the restaurant or a picnic, but you will be able to find out on the festspiele website.

N.


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## Morton (Nov 13, 2016)

Ok, thanks I will check that out.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

SiegendesLicht said:


> ^ I think it is not entirely the fault of Gottfried or any other one of the Wagners. It is as much a fault of our screwed-up society with its even more screwed-up values, where the noble and the beautiful is put down, and degeneracy of all sorts is praised. If the world was right, the Wagners would have been treated like royalty and would have worn their name and origins with pride as they should. I actually start to get some respect for Winifred. She was tough and proud, no power in the world could break her.


Tirades against "degeneracy of all sorts" always make me a bit nervous. Particularly if the alternative is Winifred Wagner.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

amfortas said:


> Tirades against "degeneracy of all sorts" always make me a bit nervous. Particularly if the alternative is Winifred Wagner.


The five hour black and white documentary of Winifred Wagner being interviewed in the 70s is the most unlikely candidate for compelling viewing there is, but that is what it is. Delusion, confirmation bias, the blindness of love and racism are all put under the microscope and I came away with neither a good nor a bad opinion of Winifred. She seemed to me to be a poor, deluded soul living in her own fantasy world. A world that she believed in without doubt.

N.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

What I like about Wagner is he somehow combines our most supreme moral righteousness with our most base, primeval licentiousness. A paradox for all time. He is decently indecent.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Couchie said:


> What I like about Wagner is he somehow combines our most supreme moral righteousness with our most base, primeval licentiousness. A paradox for all time. He is decently indecent.


That's why I like him half as much as you do.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Couchie said:


> he somehow combines our most supreme moral righteousness with our most base, primeval licentiousness.


no he doesn't and there's a stark division between the two in his works.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

let's not mistake Wagner for Richard Strauss.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Zhdanov said:


> no he doesn't and there's a stark division between the two in his works.


As just one example, glorifying Tristan and Isoldes affair for 20 minutes followed immediately by Mark's 15 minute also glorious moral shaming.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Couchie said:


> As just one example, glorifying Tristan and Isoldes affair for 20 minutes followed immediately by Mark's 15 minute also glorious moral shaming.


And both are indeed glorious. Such is life.


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

Belowpar said:


> Thank you for taking the time. Bucket list...check.


Be careful what you wish for.

This October I saw my 2nd Ring at Covent Garden and the effect it had on me was again transcendal. I made a resolution that I should try and see a cycle every 5 years or so. This coincided with a likely change in my fortunes where I could start to actively plan for having more time available. So wary of talk of 5, 7 and 9 year waits on the list, I registered with Bayreuth and put in an application.

YOU can guess ….

Today I received an email inviting me to purchase a ticket for Parsifal 05/08/19 and I am very excited. ( A lovely gift 7 days to the minute of when I attained my financial freedom!) Will just need to check with 'her indoors' this weekend - and this will be a solo trip! ( I thought I woudl try a one off Opera before commiting to a week of the Ring).

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread it was inspirational, but there's been no talk of lodging, which I would have thought necessary?

I'm wondering has anyone stayed in Nuremberg - 55 mins by train? I'm wondering about flying in the day before and visiting Bayreuth as a tourist that (Sunday) PM. Monday would be the Opera and little else and then a couple of days as a tourist before heading home? I'm thinking there's probably not that much to do in Bayreuth itself. Given that I love a city and accommodation should be cheap enough to cover the additional cost of the rail fares, does Nuremberg make sense as a base?

Time to start swotting: my German is non existent (only 1 previous visit 30 years ago) and my only exposure to Parsifal the Syberberg Film 35 years ago! I will then have seen all his mature Operas.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

^^ My congratulations <3. I know Wagner sites in Spanish that offer a guide to stay in Bayreuth and what to visit and do.

If you have the chance to listen to KFV in the title role it would be a wonder, pity that I don't like Haenchen's take on the accurate pace for _Parsifal._


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## Morton (Nov 13, 2016)

I’m wondering has anyone stayed in Nuremberg – 55 mins by train? I’m wondering about flying in the day before and visiting Bayreuth as a tourist that (Sunday) PM. Monday would be the Opera and little else and then a couple of days as a tourist before heading home? I’m thinking there’s probably not that much to do in Bayreuth itself. Given that I love a city and accommodation should be cheap enough to cover the additional cost of the rail fares, does Nuremberg make sense as a base? 

Congratulations!
My wife an I had our first visit to Bayreuth this year, also for Parsifal, and I also considered staying in Nuremburg but was not sure if there would be a late train back from Bayreuth.
In the end our itinerary was, fly to Munich and stay in hotel opposite railway station for the first night, this gave us the time to explore the Bierkellers of Munich, then early train to Nuremberg for a day’s sightseeing, then train to Bayreuth, where we stayed for three nights.
One great advantage of staying in Bayreuth is that at the end of the evening you can stroll back into town for a couple refreshing beers!
In Bayreuth there is plenty to see, obviously the recently re-opened museum at Wahnfried, not forgetting Siegfried’s house next door and the splendid Margravial Opera House.
As for accommodation in Bayreuth I would definitely not recommend Hotel Poseidon (where we stayed), I would think just about anywhere would be better, but I have heard Hotel Goldener Hirsch is pretty good.


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## Morton (Nov 13, 2016)

Belowpar said:


> Be careful what you wish for.
> 
> I'm wondering has anyone stayed in Nuremberg - 55 mins by train? I'm wondering about flying in the day before and visiting Bayreuth as a tourist that (Sunday) PM. Monday would be the Opera and little else and then a couple of days as a tourist before heading home? I'm thinking there's probably not that much to do in Bayreuth itself. Given that I love a city and accommodation should be cheap enough to cover the additional cost of the rail fares, does Nuremberg make sense as a base?
> 
> ...


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Just in time for the start of the 2019 festival tomorrow, we get news on the 2020 festival, including conductor, director, and cast list for the new Ring Cycle.

All of the information is to go up at the website, but it's not there yet.

"The musical direction will be provided by the Finnish conductor Pietari Inkinen. We are looking forward to a production by Valentin Schwarz." (Translated Tweet).

Pietari Inkinen conducted Opera Australia's 2016 Melbourne Ring. There is a Simon O'Neill CD of Wagner excerpts that he conducts. Most of his other recordings are symphonic works. Other live operatic conducting experience includes Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg for Opera Australia and Madama Butterfly for Finnish National Opera (both 2018) and Eugene Onegin for Dresden. Valentin Schwarz has some opera directing credits including at Oper Köln and Theater an der Wien, though nothing seems familiar.

The cast lists were posted in images in this tweet.

Günther Groissböck sings all three Wotan/Wanderers. Christa Mayer is Fricka both times. Klaus Florian Vogt and Lise Davidsen are the twins, Georg Zeppenfeld is Hunding. John Lundgren sings Alberich each time. Ain Anger sings Fasolt and Hagen. Wiebke Lehmkuhl sings Erda twice plus 1st Norn/Waltraute.

Different Brünnhilde in each opera. Different Siegfrieds, too.
Petra Lang sings in _Die Walküre_
Andreas Schager and Daniela Köhler are in _Siegfried_
Stephen Gould and Christine Goerke are in _Götterdämmerung_


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Video of the new _Tannhäuser_ is currently streaming, and it seems to not be geo-restricted. It started at 16:00 locally, or 7 AM here in the West Coast of the USA.

So Act 2 should begin sometime soon, as of my posting time.

https://www.br-klassik.de/concert/ausstrahlung-1816820.html

Given how the production is going, I expect the stage will be made up to look like the Festpielhaus.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

mountmccabe said:


> Video of the new _Tannhäuser_ is currently streaming, and it seems to not be geo-restricted. It started at 16:00 locally, or 7 AM here in the West Coast of the USA.
> 
> So Act 2 should begin sometime soon, as of my posting time.
> 
> ...


I just tuned in to see a dwarf in a sailor's suit and a big yellow creature that looks like Big Bird from Sesame Street. A woman is in Medieval costume and a fat man is wearing suspenders. OOPS! The Bayreuth police department has just arrived to arrest everyone! They all look as baffled as I am.

They're piping in music from Tannhauser. I don't know why.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Whew. Wolfram, dressed as a clown, just had sex with Elisabeth, dressed in a slip, inside a broken down bus.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tannhauser rips a musical score to pieces, Venus climbs a scaffold carrying some sort of sign in German, he drags Elisabeth's bloody corpse out of the bus and remembers their happy days as hippies on the road, and the opera is over.

I guess this is how we amuse ourselves while waiting for Godot.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Hilarious stuff. When does Tannhäuser start?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> Hilarious stuff. When does Tannhäuser start?


Maybe when the Wagners are dead and gone.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I just tuned in to see a dwarf in a sailor's suit and a big yellow creature that looks like Big Bird from Sesame Street. A woman is in Medieval costume and a fat man is wearing suspenders. OOPS! The Bayreuth police department has just arrived to arrest everyone! They all look as baffled as I am.


The dwarf is Oskar from _The Tin Drum_. Grass's novel is essentially about the change from traditional to modern. The director has chosen to highlight that aspect of _Tannhäuser_. It's not purity versus licentiousness, virgin versus goddess of love, evening star versus Venus... for they are all the same. At least to Wagner's (relatively) modern viewpoint.

The modern versus traditional also plays out with the mix of costuming; some - such as Elisabeth - are in very traditional garb, while others - including the drag queen - look much more modern.

I am not sure I get Katarina Wagner calling the cops on modernism. I am not sure why they'd have her, in particular, represent traditionalism.

I missed the first half of the first act, so I'm not sure all what was going on. I do know that it's Tannhäuser that shows up as a clown first, I suppose representing the effects of spending that year away after abandoning Elisabeth, focusing on pleasure. When he leaves Venusburg and comes to outside the Festspielhaus. And when Wolfram mentions Elisabeth, she is there, and slaps Tannhäuser (which I think makes clear their relationship history).

When she shows up in act 2 Elisabeth is wearing her traditional costume, because that is the role she is playing for her uncle and the others. This is further highlighted by starting act 2 in her dressing room, and then moving towards the stage. (There was a screen above the DVD-like cutout of the stage so the audience in the hall saw these video elements).

I'm not sure I'm on board with everything in the production, and much of my response from watching it was bafflement.


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Best of luck to ALL those, who could attend this … continuation-of-a-Wagner-tradition, so to speak! An American could almost be-ENVIOUS, that some of you can visit the old Festpielhaus, and see how performing practices have progressed, since the days of Elmendorff, Furtwangler, Frida Leider, Volker and so many others! One wonders, sometimes, what Mr. Wagner, himself, would think of how Bayreuth has fared … since HIS days.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

mountmccabe said:


> The dwarf is Oskar from _The Tin Drum_. Grass's novel is essentially about the change from traditional to modern. The director has chosen to highlight that aspect of _Tannhäuser_. It's not purity versus licentiousness, virgin versus goddess of love, evening star versus Venus... for they are all the same. At least to Wagner's (relatively) modern viewpoint.
> 
> The modern versus traditional also plays out with the mix of costuming; some - such as Elisabeth - are in very traditional garb, while others - including the drag queen - look much more modern.
> 
> ...


How did you even figure out the symbolism to that extent? You must have read something about it. I'm reminded of Tom Wolfe's infamous and hilarious essay, "The Painted Word," about the New York abstract art scene in the 1950s and 60s. His premise was that the art itself was incomprehensible to its prospective audience, and that its ability to convey a message and an air of importance was dependent on the pretentious writings of theorists and critics.

I can imagine a contemporary playwright reinterpreting the Tannhauser story along the lines of this production, since there is a sort of "modern vs traditional standards" theme implicit in it (as there is in other Wagner operas). But as I watched (I caught the end of the second act and most of the third) my overriding feeling, when I wasn't laughing at people looking silly and doing absurd things, was that Wagner's music sounded out of place emotionally and culturally, like something from another era that just happened to be playing while the people onstage were tearing up music or having sex or whatever. It didn't feel like a old opera updated; it felt like a contemporary absurdist play accompanied by old-fashioned Romantic music that ended up being trivialized.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

No, I didn't get any of that from a review. 

As Tannhäuser was streaming I chatted on other social platforms about it; here could have been one. But there wasn't much talk about what it meant like I wanted to, so I did it. After the opera someone noted that this production showed direct consequences of the extremes (without giving any details) and I thought on that.

Oh, well, there was one article on the 50th anniversary of The Tin Drum (ten years ago) that discussed what that book was about. (Incidentally, why is it so difficult to find info on what things are about? Plot summaries are everywhere, but analysis...).

That made me realize that Oskar was primarily a thematic link, and that Kratzer was focusing on the similar themes that are the focus of the opera.

Again, I missed the first scene, so it's not surprising I was confused. I wouldn't expect a superficial production I could jump in the middle of and get right away from Bayreuth.

As I said, I'm not sure how much I liked this. I am feeling better about it after having sat with it, but it needed that effort. I much prefer productions that work immediately, in addition to have more depth than is apparent at first glance. If course there are people who immediately enjoyed it, and not from a lack of understanding the opera.

I am not sure why a playwright would bother doing what you suggest. This isn't a transformative production, really. Putting Venus on stage during act 2 isn't that significant of a change, and is an expression of what is going on. I'm also not sure it was necessary, but then again there are also a lot of people who have no idea what happens and why things happen in Tannhäuser, including people who like the opera.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Couchie said:


> As just one example, glorifying Tristan and Isoldes affair for 20 minutes followed immediately by Mark's 15 minute also glorious moral shaming.


I always turn off Mark's moral shaming. Boring old git!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Looking at one of the reviews of the Tannhauser I am always amazed at the line, 'presented to a capacity audience....' which means that Wagner devotees are gullible enough to take an inordinate journey to his shrine and pay inflated prices to see a production which bears little resemblance to what RW intended. Can't anyone see the emperor has no clothes?


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

I've found Bayreuth prices very reasonable both for tickets and refreshments; no worse, and possibly cheaper than seeing a Wagner opera in London, on both counts. As a bonus, the beautiful setting and festival atmosphere make for a better "Gesamterfahrung", to coin a phrase.


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## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

DavidA said:


> Looking at one of the reviews of the Tannhauser I am always amazed at the line, 'presented to a capacity audience....' which means that Wagner devotees are gullible enough to take an inordinate journey to his shrine and pay inflated prices to see* a production which bears little resemblance to what RW intended*. Can't anyone see the emperor has no clothes?


It's safe to say that we do not know what RW would intend in 2019, 130 years after his death, if he were still alive.

So here's the new Bayreuth production 2019:






So far I have seen the first and part of the second act. It tells a story and it does so in an enternaining way. Conducting is unfortunately not spectacular by Gergiev standards, but the orchestra does a good job, singing between ok and fine (Davidsen!). We've seen and heard worse in Bayreuth 10 years ago.

(If it should be called Tannhäuser or whether or not a long dead man would approve of it, I do not know.)


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

interestedin said:


> It's safe to say that we do not know what RW would intend in 2019


safe to say he *never* intended to live that long.



interestedin said:


> Conducting is unfortunately not spectacular by Gergiev standards


but if go by the vid sound, he was at his best.



interestedin said:


> but the orchestra does a good job,


you mean they ignored the conductor?


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

it is also safe to say - this production would *not* have been possible back in the composer days.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

interestedin said:


> *It's safe to say that we do not know what RW would intend in 2019, *130 years after his death, if he were still alive.
> 
> *We've seen and heard worse in Bayreuth 10 years ago.*


I think maybe an opinionated man like Wagner might have wanted something that approximated to his concept?

To actually say we've heard worse is not the best recommendation! :lol:


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## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

DavidA said:


> I think maybe an opinionated man like Wagner might have wanted something that approximated to his concept?


A man with as many opinions as Wagner had might have changed his concept quite a few times if he had been active another 130 years.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

interestedin said:


> A man with as many opinions as Wagner had might have changed his concept quite a few times if he had been active another 130 years.


The problem is we have dim-witted producers who want to put their concept on operas. I saw a Don G where the producer thought he knew better than da Ponte.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

DavidA said:


> The problem is we have dim-witted producers who want to put their concept on operas. I saw a Don G where the producer thought he knew better than da Ponte.


So did I, the Strehler production at La Scala, but since it had pretty sets and costumes nobody minded or spoke about it not being "what the composer would have wanted".

Hypocrisy much?

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Why speculate about what Wagner would want if he were alive now when we have his operas to tell us what he wanted when he wrote them?

If we don't like the operas he wrote, we can write our own operas.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

what if there was no Wagner at all so no need to use his music in this production?


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Why speculate about what Wagner would want if he were alive now when we have his operas to tell us what he wanted when he wrote them?
> 
> If we don't like the operas he wrote, we can write our own operas.


Even if we do like the operas he wrote, there's nothing stopping us writing our own operas!

It's very difficult to say where the line is when a performance of an opera ceases to be the composer's work to such an extent that it is a new opera. Are performances of the Ring at the Met in the 30s no longer Wagner because they were quite heavily cut? In Wagner's case he wrote the libretti so you could say that some recent Bayreuth productions are 'new' operas (last year's Lohengrin added some elements that aren't part of Wagner's original conception and they didn't sit well with the rest of the opera IMO). However, the most recent Parsifal didn't have anything in it that jars with the libretto or music and even Castorf's Ring worked as a novel take on the piece, rather than departing from the themes and meanings both in the text and the music as Wagner wrote it.

N.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

if suggest a longevity that he lived till now, then why not suggest he died young and left us no music, so bayreuth could let him be and take on some other composer to disgrace?


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

I quite strongly prefer traditional productions of Wagner’s operas, because I’m not sure whether using someone else’s opera to convey your own ideas is appropriate. I see the goal of production as finding different ways to convey the ideas of the composer in the most effective way. If you want to share your own ideas, you really should rather write your own opera. In addition, Wagner’s operas are way too complex - not following Wagner’s original intentions would quite possibly mess up the structure of his philosophical ideas that he widely used in his operas. I’m definitely not saying that all modern productions are bad, but my personal opinion is that they should follow composer’s original ideas.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> It's very difficult to say where the line is when a performance of an opera ceases to be the composer's work to such an extent that it is a new opera. Are performances of the Ring at the Met in the 30s no longer Wagner because they were quite heavily cut?


Oh, come now! Do you honestly think that's a difficult question? Cuts have always been traditional in opera (and theater in general); often they're sanctioned by the composers themselves. Whether they're desirable is another matter.

If we respect the notes of the score, the words of the libretto, and the story they tell, we're performing the composer's work. We can still be imaginative in staging it. If we substantially cut and rearrange the music and libretto, or impose alien settings, narratives and meanings that contradict and undermine the original story, we're not performing the composer's opera but merely using it for our own purposes.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Zhdanov said:


> if suggest a longevity that he lived till now, then why not suggest he died young and left us no music, so bayreuth could let him be and take on some other composer to disgrace?


Because if Wagner hadn't existed then neither would the operas and neither would the Bayreuth theatre.

It's a bit like ruminating on how your life would have been different had both your grandfathers not had any children.

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

annaw said:


> I quite strongly prefer traditional productions of Wagner's operas, because I'm not sure whether using someone else's opera to convey your own ideas is appropriate. I see the goal of production as finding different ways to convey the ideas of the composer in the most effective way. If you want to share your own ideas, you really should rather write your own opera. In addition, Wagner's operas are way too complex - not following Wagner's original intentions would quite possibly mess up the structure of his philosophical ideas that he widely used in his operas. I'm definitely not saying that all modern productions are bad, but my personal opinion is that they should follow composer's original ideas.


That's all fine, except that you divide productions into 'traditional' and 'not traditional', where you define the not traditional as being productions where the director conveys their own ideas. Strictly speaking all directors convey their own ideas - what do the singers do, how do they move etc. when the stage directions in the libretto are silent on such matters. Take Zeffirelli's Tosca productions (that most people would say are traditional), he added a number of things for the Sacristian to do, these were his ideas.

I imagine you mean that the director has departed from the instructions in the libretto and done something differently of his own. Or has added themes and concepts relating to the meaning of the work that aren't in the original libretto or score. It's important to define the terms we use to describe productions since "traditional" means different things to different people and the traditional vs not traditional dialectic is a false dichotomy when in fact there are a range of different approaches to directing an opera from traditional to updated to innovative to regie. I think it best to take each production on a case by case basis and discuss what we think works and what doesn't rather than using labels that we probably don't all agree on.

N.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Conte said:


> That's all fine, except that you divide productions into 'traditional' and 'not traditional', where you define the not traditional as being productions where the director conveys their own ideas. Strictly speaking all directors convey their own ideas - what do the singers do, how do they move etc. when the stage directions in the libretto are silent on such matters. Take Zeffirelli's Tosca productions (that most people would say are traditional), he added a number of things for the Sacristian to do, these were his ideas.
> 
> I imagine you mean that the director has departed from the instructions in the libretto and done something differently of his own. Or has added themes and concepts relating to the meaning of the work that aren't in the original libretto or score. It's important to define the terms we use to describe productions since "traditional" means different things to different people and the traditional vs not traditional dialectic is a false dichotomy when in fact there are a range of different approaches to directing an opera from traditional to updated to innovative to regie. I think it best to take each production on a case by case basis and discuss what we think works and what doesn't rather than using labels that we probably don't all agree on.
> 
> N.


I couldn't care whether or not a production is 'traditional' as I have enjoyed a good number which aren't. What is important to me is that a producer serves the composer's intentions and not the other way round. I mean, to have some dumb-cluck of a producer thinking a genius like Mozart should serve his vision seems a bit presumptuous to me.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Oh, come now! Do you honestly think that's a difficult question? Cuts have always been traditional in opera (and theater in general); often they're sanctioned by the composers themselves. Whether they're desirable is another matter.
> 
> If we respect the notes of the score, the words of the libretto, and the story they tell, we're performing the composer's work. We can still be imaginative in staging it. If we substantially cut and rearrange the music and libretto, or impose alien settings, narratives and meanings that contradict and undermine the original story, we're not performing the composer's opera but merely using it for our own purposes.


What does substantially cut and rearrange actually mean in practice? It was also standard practice to present operas substantially cut and rearranged in the 19th century and quite often they were given complete face lifts with music by the composer cut out and replaced with arias by another and the librettos completely rewritten for censorship reasons. My example of customary cuts to Wagner was deliberately placed at the lower end of the scale (I think the operas are still Wagner there).

The general question relating to where the line is to be drawn still stands. Is the Choudens Contes d'Hoffmann still Offenbach? In 1995 the BBC did a special TV version of The Marriage of Figaro which was billed as Figaro as a sitcom. It was in English with dialogue in place of the recitatives and took place in a contemporary English setting. Some people at the time thought it wasn't _Mozart's_ Figaro and you'd have a point saying it wasn't Da Ponte's Figaro. (Not that I necessarily agree with either of those opinions.) I'm sure you have a very good idea of exactly where you would draw the line, but does that coincide with where others would do so?

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

DavidA said:


> I couldn't care whether or not a production is 'traditional' as I have enjoyed a good number which aren't. What is important to me is that a producer serves the composer's intentions and not the other way round. I mean, to have some dumb-cluck of a producer thinking a genius like Mozart should serve his vision seems a bit presumptuous to me.


I think we more or less agree, however, directors (we don't have producers in opera in the UK anymore) don't have the job of serving the composers intentions, that's the conductor's role. That said, a good director has an understanding of how the composer has set the libretto in the way they choose to and the possibilities that affords. I think it a mistake to assume that a bad director or a bad production is the result of the director thinking they are better than the composer. It's enough to point out the shortcomings of a production, we don't need to speculate on what may or may not have been going on in the director's head at the time.

N.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

The Conte said:


> That's all fine, except that you divide productions into 'traditional' and 'not traditional', where you define the not traditional as being productions where the director conveys their own ideas. Strictly speaking all directors convey their own ideas - what do the singers do, how do they move etc. when the stage directions in the libretto are silent on such matters. Take Zeffirelli's Tosca productions (that most people would say are traditional), he added a number of things for the Sacristian to do, these were his ideas.
> 
> *I imagine you mean that the director has departed from the instructions in the libretto and done something differently of his own.* Or has added themes and concepts relating to the meaning of the work that aren't in the original libretto or score. It's important to define the terms we use to describe productions since "traditional" means different things to different people and the traditional vs not traditional dialectic is a false dichotomy when in fact there are a range of different approaches to directing an opera from traditional to updated to innovative to regie. I think it best to take each production on a case by case basis and discuss what we think works and what doesn't rather than using labels that we probably don't all agree on.
> 
> N.


Thank you for correction - you indeed understood correctly what I meant to say and I admit that I didn't use terminology in the best possible way. I meant an obvious violation of composer's ideas - for example, if a production rejects Schopenhauerian philosophy in Tristan, then it just feels misinterpreted (the possibility that Tristan und Isolde was influenced by Schopenhauer is huge, but of course some people still deny that).


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Conte said:


> I think we more or less agree, however, directors (we don't have producers in opera in the UK anymore) don't have the job of serving the composers intentions, that's the conductor's role. That said, a good director has an understanding of how the composer has set the libretto in the way they choose to and the possibilities that affords. I think it a mistake to assume that a bad director or a bad production is the result of the director thinking they are better than the composer. It's enough to point out the shortcomings of a production, we don't need to speculate on what may or may not have been going on in the director's head at the time.
> 
> N.


If the director does things the composer did not intend then it's quite obvious he thinks he knew better than the composer.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

The Conte said:


> Because if Wagner hadn't existed then neither would the operas and neither would the Bayreuth theatre.


no, in that case, Ludvig II of Bavaria would have built the theatre anyway to stage his own works there.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> If the director does things the composer did not intend then it's quite obvious he thinks he knew better than the composer.


Not so. Composers supply music for a story and a libretto. They don't typically have intentions that embrace every aspect of the staging of their works. There's plenty of room for creativity in scenic design and stage action - for things the composer may not trouble himself to think or care about.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> What does substantially cut and rearrange actually mean in practice? It was also standard practice to present operas substantially cut and rearranged in the 19th century and quite often they were given complete face lifts with music by the composer cut out and replaced with arias by another and the librettos completely rewritten for censorship reasons. My example of customary cuts to Wagner was deliberately placed at the lower end of the scale (I think the operas are still Wagner there).
> 
> *The general question relating to where the line is to be drawn still stands.*
> 
> Is the Choudens Contes d'Hoffmann still Offenbach? In 1995 the BBC did a special TV version of The Marriage of Figaro which was billed as Figaro as a sitcom. It was in English with dialogue in place of the recitatives and took place in a contemporary English setting. Some people at the time thought it wasn't _Mozart's_ Figaro and you'd have a point saying it wasn't Da Ponte's Figaro. (Not that I necessarily agree with either of those opinions.) I'm sure you have a very good idea of exactly where you would draw the line, but does that coincide with where others would do so?


Was the plot line of _Figaro_ respected? Were the characters and their motivations recognizable? Did the action and setting express, or did it work against, the music?

It isn't necessary to "draw a line." I'm talking principles and intentions. Where, on the color spectrum, is the line between red and orange? There isn't one; there's an area in which people will disagree on which term to use to describe what they're seeing, but as we travel around the spectrum it becomes less and less sensible, and ultimately absurd and deceptive, to use a particular color term.

All artistic choices are matters of degree. Nevertheless, artists know that there are bad choices. The inhabitants of Wagner's mythical Brabant are not pink and yellow rodents, and cannot be properly "symbolized" by them. A production of _Lohengrin_ is never entirely "Wagner's _Lohengrin_." In 1950s Bayreuth we had the "Richard Wagner/Wieland Wagner_ Lohengrin_." But that was a _Lohengrin_ in which Wieland sought to realize the spirit of Richard's work. I don't even want to know what spirit Neuenfels is trying to realize.

The question "Where do you draw the line?" is not a "general question"; it's always a question about specifics. In a purely theoretical context it's meaningless and is nothing but a "gotcha" question serving to justify absolute license. The implication is, "If you can't draw a definite line, anything goes, and I'm justified in doing anything to an artist's work I feel like doing." If that's your position, just say so.

Producing an opera should not be the equivalent of throwing spaghetti at the wall, funded by tax money.


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## OperaChic (Aug 26, 2015)

DavidA said:


> If the director does things the composer did not intend then it's quite obvious he thinks he knew better than the composer.


The latest version of the Ring produced by the Met is just one obvious example of a production that is beyond anything Wagner could have conceived or would have imagined, yet stays true to the characters and settings and faithfully retells the story of Wagner's Ring. It looks nothing like what the first audiences at Bayreuth in 1876 would have seen, only loosely follows any visual traditions or intentions Wagner had for his work, and demonstrates how much freedom and creativity a director has in presenting an opera while still being recognizable as that opera.

Whether or not it was a good production is a different mater. There are a lot of things about it that I liked, some I didn't, but all this talk about composers intentions and traditional stagings versus updated stagings is an oversimplification of the issue. It's no more difficult to recognize when an opera we are watching is a faithful interpretation, with or without cuts, anymore than it is difficult to tell the difference between a performance and interpretation of a Mozart symphony that may or may not follow all the repeats or may ot may not use instruments that are historically accurate -- and a different composition altogether. And productions that "update" the action of an opera to a new time or location are still usually recognizable but often little more than new window dressing and a simple and lazy way for directors to say they are making the work more relevant for the audience.


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## OperaChic (Aug 26, 2015)

annaw said:


> I meant an obvious violation of composer's ideas - for example, if a production rejects Schopenhauerian philosophy in Tristan, then it just feels misinterpreted


I'm not sure how a visual production would reject the SchopenhauerIan influence that exists on the opera, since that influence exists in the text and music.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

OperaChic said:


> I'm not sure how a visual production would reject the SchopenhauerIan influence that exists on the opera, since that influence exists in the text and music.


I started wondering that myself too  . That wasn't the best example...


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Zhdanov said:


> no, in that case, Ludvig II of Bavaria would have built the theatre anyway to stage his own works there.


But what if Ludwig II hadn't existed?

Oh right, the masons would probably have built the theatre anyway...

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Was the plot line of _Figaro_ respected? Were the characters and their motivations recognizable? Did the action and setting express, or did it work against, the music?
> 
> It isn't necessary to "draw a line." I'm talking principles and intentions. Where, on the color spectrum, is the line between red and orange? There isn't one; there's an area in which people will disagree on which term to use to describe what they're seeing, but as we travel around the spectrum it becomes less and less sensible, and ultimately absurd and deceptive, to use a particular color term.
> 
> ...


I totally agree (although I haven't seen the Neuenfels Lohengrin so I don't have an opinion on that point). My point is most certainly _not_ anything goes! My point (as is yours) is that you have to take each production on a case by case basis and that a lot of the complaints about productions (it isn't traditional, it isn't what the composer would have wanted) are absurd excuses for saying the sets and costumes aren't pretty! (I know that isn't the case when it comes to your comments about productions you feel don't serve the composer and/or librettist's work.)

I do not ask where the line is drawn as a gotcha exercise to try and prove that all productions are good as if the act of experimentation or doing something different is its own justification. There is ample time during rehearsals to experiment and if such things fail then a good director will change them before the dress rehearsal. Instead I am asking those who swiftly condemn any novelty or even 'ugly' productions to justify their comments and to think more about this topic.

Getting into specifics let's take two productions, one which was viewed by the conservative La Scala audience of the 80s as a 'traditional' classic and another that was roundly panned and booed by the London critics who frequent the ROH. Strehler's Don Giovanni was a bad production and had a few aspects that meant it didn't respect what Da Ponte had put in his libretto (who knows what Mozart would have wanted!) The action of Don Giovanni starts in the early hours of the morning and continues throughout the following day until it ends some time after dinner (the meal that the statue of the Commendatore has been invited to). Strehler had the action of the opera take place across the course of a night, thus raising the question of what all these people were doing up and dressed when they should have been in bed! He probably made that choice to justify his signature back lighting. There was also some messy stage direction when it came to the singers' interactions with one another, which just didn't make sense. Now surely this travesty of Da Ponte's Don Giovanni (musically the performance that I saw respected Mozart's score) was booed off the stage? Was it heck! How come? Because the sets and costumes were easy on the eye and the lighting was visually attractive.

Guillaume Tell at the ROH a few seasons back was a different kettle of fish. Whilst it was given in modern dress and instead of a set representing the various locations of the drama the stage was covered in mud with a big tree laying across it. However, the characters and situations of the libretto were faithfully represented and the way the singers acted with each other was natural and humane. However the production caused a riot on opening night. Why? It certainly wasn't because the director hadn't respected the libretto (it was quite clear from much of the criticism that those opposing the production weren't that familiar with the libretto and they stated that they were happy with the performance as far as the musical side was concerned - so Rossini's supposed intentions weren't betrayed.) The negative comments mentioned a 'grungey' scenery and 'eurotrash' style of the mis en scene. In other words what people really didn't like was the lack of pretty sets and costumes.

I don't believe this applies to you, but some people are using 'dreadful modern productions' or 'doing things the composer didn't intend' to mean I found the sets and costumes ugly. That's why I ask for a line to be drawn (and you have drawn a line in your comment about the BBC Figaro). Not being able to draw a line isn't just a symptom of 'anything goes', but also the lazy mindtrap of 'it's different, I don't like it'.

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

No doubt people do dismiss artistically interesting and legitimate productions for superficial reasons. "Ugliness" isn't necessarily a bad thing if there's a point to it. I can nevertheless understand revulsion at seeing yet another stark, barren, dingy, grey (and probably low-budget) production of a work which was conceived with a very different atmosphere in mind and doesn't sound the least bit dingy and grey to the ear. There are cliches of "modernist" staging which are more tiresome and irritating than traditional sets and costumes, even if they aren't really outrageous, and they could certainly keep me from buying a ticket.

Speaking as a musician, and particularly as one who learned very early on (largely from Wagner) how effective music can be in evoking highly specific emotional and sensory qualities, it's important to me that a production's visual aspect work meaningfully with its musical score. It might do that in different ways: a traditional production might strive to capture a strong period flavor (aristocratic 18th-century London, say) and so bring that flavor out in the music, while a contemporary production might try to get out of the way of the music to let it make its own points. Wieland Wagner's simply designed, timeless stagings worked in the latter way for the timeless myths of his grandfather's works (but, it was felt, not so well for the time-and-place-specific _Die Meistersinger_). Most people accept the "period updating" of operas, but there is still a danger of compromising the work's credibility when characters exhibiting the surroundings, attire, and behavior of 2019 are uttering words and music that belong to the world of two or three centuries ago. The result might create an interesting counterpoint and be in some way illuminating, or it might be disconcerting, unintentionally amusing, or simply vacuous, with the conflicting values canceling one another out. Some incongruities in modern productions can be real eye-rollers, and make me wonder whether the director is cynical or merely clueless.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

The Conte said:


> But what if Ludwig II hadn't existed?


then Bayreuth folks today could have used some imagination & pretend he did exist, or are they stupid?

they claim to suss things Wagner might want centuries on, but still can't figure out Ludvig's?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Conte said:


> I totally agree (although I haven't seen the Neuenfels Lohengrin so I don't have an opinion on that point). My point is most certainly _not_ anything goes! My point (as is yours) is that you have to take each production on a case by case basis and that a lot of the complaints about productions (it isn't traditional, it isn't what the composer would have wanted) are absurd excuses for saying the sets and costumes aren't pretty! (I know that isn't the case when it comes to your comments about productions you feel don't serve the composer and/or librettist's work.)
> 
> I do not ask where the line is drawn as a gotcha exercise to try and prove that all productions are good as if the act of experimentation or doing something different is its own justification. There is ample time during rehearsals to experiment and if such things fail then a good director will change them before the dress rehearsal. Instead I am asking those who swiftly condemn any novelty or even 'ugly' productions to justify their comments and to think more about this topic.
> 
> ...


It's quite easy to see what Mozart would've wanted - what he put into the score which follows da Ponte's libretto! I can't see there being any debate about that . I think your point about costumes is actually a valid one in that people do like to see what you go pretty costumes. I know I do when I go to the theatre. I saw Romeo and Juliet play done in jeans and modern dress and the whole thing just looked awful. It is supposed to be held at the Varona Court. It is therefore very disappointing when you see these things done without any attempt to meet withthe audience. I think many times he's just sheer laziness on the part of the producers . But if we go and see an opera at a major opera house we should surely be going to see decent costumes


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Well. at the risk of alienating the few friends I have on this forum, here goes.

I thought back to Bob Dylan's adage of 'Don't criticise what you can't understand' and decided to apply that to the new Tannhauser production at Bayreuth this year. I felt that my previous comment was unfairly based on a few cursory moments viewing and that perhaps one shouldn't make judgements without having given a fair watch.

So headphones on and laptop fired up I sat down to watch it over this morning and afternoon.

Before doing so I had a look at an interview with the director, Tobias Kratzer, online to get a feel for what he was hoping to achieve and, although it's been a good fifty years since I read it, I had another look at Gunter Grass's The Tin Drum. As I recall the protagonist Oscar was someone who through a great trauma had decided not to grow up and remained a child emotionally, if not physically, thereby obviating the need to engage with the real world. I could understand therefore where the director was going with Oscar. The Chocolate Cake I presume was a personification of the hedonistic life that Tannhauser had chosen and also his refusal to engage with reality. I felt that the director was aiming for a modern look at alienation and diversity and I think he addressed them beautifully. My opinion only!

With this on board I watched this production. I felt that headphones and the close proximity of the laptop screen would give a more immersive experience. Boy was I right.

I found the whole thing one of the most emotionally draining operatic experiences of my life. I couldn't believe that I was actually crying at the end of Act 3 which I find wonderful at the best of times but somehow this all just hit home. The acting and singing by all concerned was superb and all credit to Stephen Gould for maintaining a tremendous grip of that gruelling tessitura throughout but particularly in the Rome narration. I'm not going to waste time analysing every little detail but I thought the intervention of Venus at the song contest was a terrific touch and the seduction of Wolfram by Elisabeth in Act 3 was so upsetting but perfectly logical within the framework of the production. 

Given that she was a last minute replacement Elena Zhidkova was brilliant as Venus. Lise Davidsen was a tremendous Elisabeth with a steely core that made her more of a foil for Tannhauser than usual. Markus Eiche was an excellent Wolfram although I thought that there was a little rough edge to his voice that wasn't there a few years ago. Stephen Milling as the Landgraf was really good as were the Minnesingers. Katharina Konradi made a great impact as the shepherd and the chorus was it's usual superb self.

So many great moments and one or two bits that I haven't quite divined their meaning but overall I was quite overwhelmed by this production. And that's a sentence I never thought I'd be writing.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Apropos my last post I should have mentioned that Gergiev and the festival orchestra are tremendous. I thought that he was making a bit of a hash of the overture until I realised that it was the Dresden version they were doing! Doh!!

Anyway, if any one else has watched this in its entirety I'd be interested in their thoughts.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Barbebleu said:


> Apropos my last post I should have mentioned that Gergiev and the festival orchestra are tremendous. I thought that he was making a bit of a hash of the overture until I realised that it was the Dresden version they were doing! Doh!!
> 
> Anyway, if any one else has watched this in its entirety I'd be interested in their thoughts.


Since my comments earlier in the thread I have watched the entire first act (I missed the entire Venusburg section). I am not sure I liked it as much as I did when I was guessing about what I missed. I typically really hate video used in opera productions, though this seemed to be well done and well-integrated, and other than the opening video was available in addition to the on-stage action. I didn't like that Tannhäuser had a separate reason for becoming disenchanted with Venusburg.

But overall I think the production is really smart and thoughtful. The elements brought in are used to express the story of the opera, not to tell a different narrative. It was especially interesting to hear responses from people who... don't seem to have a good idea of what is going on in the opera (I'm speaking generally here; I'm not referring to discussions here).

Lise Davidsen was fantastic, and it made me even more sad that I missed her in Munich. I liked Stephen Gould, generally. I was not much of a fan of Gergiev, and am happy that Axel Kober is replacing him next year.

I'd be happy to have a copy on blu-ray and/or to see this in the Festspielhaus.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I had extremely good fortune and bad fortune when it came to Bayreuth... simultaneously. I was 15 in 1970 ( which is impossible as I am now only 39...but I digress) and my parents did something other parents in Jackson, MS would have never done: they sent me to spend the summer with my sister who sang opera in Germany. It was the ONLY bright spot in the youth of a gay boy in MS. We went to Bayreuth, and my sister was pals with a singer named Reid Bunger and he gave me two passes to the Bayreuth festival. That was a great boon to this budding opera queen. The problem was that at 15 I was even more of a groupie than usual and no singer had cache with me except Birgit Nilsson at the time, who I would draw little pictures of at the top of my notes in high school...gay, gay gay! The first opera was sitting with very good seats in the house to view Meistersinger with Anja Silja . It was a great opera that went over my head as they had no subtitles then and so much of it is about the plot. The next opera will give some of you pause: I saw Parsifal BACKSTAGE just 20 feet often from Dame Gwenyth Jones at her very peak in 1970... and I absolutely had NO idea what a miracle I was seeing. Now I am a huge fan of hers!! I think part of the problem was simply because I was so close to her that I never got to experience how the voice must have surely bloomed to gigantic proportions in that small house with perfect acoustics. Yet again, much of that very long opera was lost to me because I didn't know German. That experience was somewhat redeemed for me as I spent a bundle and had great seats when I saw Parsifal open our new opera house here in Seattle, I was thoroughly prepared for the background and, of course, by then I could see subtitles, which greatly help. What an epic experience! Still, I look back very fondly on the experience of going to Bayreuth. I also remember remarking to my sister at intermission on how stunning looking a young blond German teenage boy was.... and I found out that this was a very inappropriate thing to do. Ah, youth!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I also remember remarking to my sister at intermission on how stunning looking a young blond German teenage boy was.... and I found out that this was a very inappropriate thing to do.


The looking or the remarking? Sounds pretty innocent to me. I can think of more inappropriate things you might have done.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> The looking or the remarking? Sounds pretty innocent to me. I can think of more inappropriate things you might have done.


Your comment is sensible, but she was raised in the Southern Baptist Church in the 1950's and even though I have a good relationship with her I am a "homosexual" not "gay" to her and I never discuss that part of my life with her. I am at peace with her and we talk a lot about her opera career. She helped raise me being 14 years older than me so I work at having a working relationship with her. You would think being in the theater would have influenced her to be more liberal, wouldn't you. Thanks for your comment, though.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I had extremely good fortune and bad fortune when it came to Bayreuth... simultaneously. I was 15 in 1970 ( which is impossible as I am now only 39...but I digress) and my parents did something other parents in Jackson, MS would have never done: they sent me to spend the summer with my sister who sang opera in Germany. It was the ONLY bright spot in the youth of a gay boy in MS. We went to Bayreuth, and my sister was pals with a singer named Reid Bunger and he gave me two passes to the Bayreuth festival. That was a great boon to this budding opera queen. The problem was that at 15 I was even more of a groupie than usual and no singer had cache with me except Birgit Nilsson at the time, who I would draw little pictures of at the top of my notes in high school...gay, gay gay! The first opera was sitting with very good seats in the house to view Meistersinger with Anja Silja . It was a great opera that went over my head as they had no subtitles then and so much of it is about the plot. The next opera will give some of you pause: I saw Parsifal BACKSTAGE just 20 feet often from Dame Gwenyth Jones at her very peak in 1970... and I absolutely had NO idea what a miracle I was seeing. Now I am a huge fan of hers!! I think part of the problem was simply because I was so close to her that I never got to experience how the voice must have surely bloomed to gigantic proportions in that small house with perfect acoustics. Yet again, much of that very long opera was lost to me because I didn't know German. That experience was somewhat redeemed for me as I spent a bundle and had great seats when I saw Parsifal open our new opera house here in Seattle, I was thoroughly prepared for the background and, of course, by then I could see subtitles, which greatly help. What an epic experience! Still, I look back very fondly on the experience of going to Bayreuth. I also remember remarking to my sister at intermission on how stunning looking a young blond German teenage boy was.... and I found out that this was a very inappropriate thing to do. Ah, youth!


This is a wonderful memory, thanks for sharing. Bayreuth still doesn't have surtitles and that does mean that one has to do a bit of preparation before attending an opera there. However, it means that you focus more on the stage and the music (and I get to test my moderate knowledge of German). Bayreuth is a special place and I am sure that all those who have been have wonderful memories of their experiences.

N.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Bayreuth's 2020 program has been cancelled. Their announcement.

The new Ring cycle is "probably" delayed until 2022.


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## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

This is just wrong


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

The whole world is just “wrong”.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

_Wirr wird mir, seit ich erwacht:
wild und kraus kreist die Welt!_


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

mountmccabe said:


> Bayreuth's 2020 program has been cancelled. Their announcement.
> 
> The new Ring cycle is "probably" delayed until 2022.





Rogerx said:


> BREAKING: BAYREUTH FESTIVAL IS CALLED OFF
> By Norman Lebrecht
> On March 31, 2020
> Katharina Wagner has just told BR-Klassik that this summer's festival has been canceled.
> ...


I posted it in another thread.


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