# Scales and Fingering



## Pianoforte (Jul 27, 2007)

I'm refering specifically to the first scale in Mozarts k545. I can't decide how to play it to make it more natural. Are there any guidelines on what fingers to use when playing up and down scales? Does the sheet music show it? Are there any excercises to encourage correct fingering on scales?

Many Thanks,

Jamie


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## Manuel (Feb 1, 2007)

Pianoforte said:


> I'm refering specifically to the first scale in Mozarts k545. I can't decide how to play it to make it more natural.


That one is in C Major, isn't it?

I think I played the right hand scales as follows:
Ascending: 1231234, and 5 on the top note
Descending (after the previous 5): 43214321. And you are ready to start again. As you are descending with 543214321 you end each scale a note lower than before. But the usual scale fingerings, for C Major are: 12312345 - 54321321.

Your score should have numbers over the notes, that's the fingering.



> Are there any excercises to encourage correct fingering on scales?


There are lots. And hiring a piano teacher is the most effective of them.


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## Pianoforte (Jul 27, 2007)

Thats very useful, thanks. I was trying every combination except that but trying it out on my desk at work its easily the best way 

Bring on tonights session!


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## Manuel (Feb 1, 2007)

Pianoforte said:


> Thats very useful, thanks. I was trying every combination except that but trying it out on my desk at work its easily the best way
> 
> Bring on tonights session!


You are welcome. Just be sure you don't move the whole hand when crossing the thumb. You can try this (instructions for the right hand):
press D and E with fingers 2 and 3; then use the thumb to play C and F alternately, without lifting 2 and 3, or moving the hand. The thumb is a lazy finger and many students use the whole hand when hitting keys with that finger.
If the thumb is not controlled and its crossing is not even your scales will sound like this:

*1* 2 3 *1!* 2 3 4 *1!* 2 3 *1!* 2 3 4 5


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## Pianoforte (Jul 27, 2007)

This guidance has been invaluable because I can now recognise the numbers above certain notes relate to what fingers should be used. I had the habit of crossing my thumb over after the index finger so I was playing 121 instead of 1231 but am not having too much trouble changing my technique because the correct way is obviously the most effective. I can't believe all these years I was making such a glaring mistake!


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## Oneiros (Aug 28, 2006)

There should be some tables on the net with the fingering for all scales - a google search would find it. Most of them use the same pattern as C major, but when you get into keys like Ab, it can get a little tricky.


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## Manuel (Feb 1, 2007)

Oneiros said:


> There should be some tables on the net with the fingering for all scales - a google search would find it. Most of them use the same pattern as C major, but when you get into keys like Ab, it can get a little tricky.


In those tonalities involving five or less flats you will always use the right hand thumb on F and C.

The Hanon has all the scales and its fingerings, plus technical excersises. But I strongly suggest you get a teacher.

*STOP LEARNING ON YOUR OWN.*


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## Oneiros (Aug 28, 2006)

LOL. What's wrong with being self-taught? If you're smart and/or poor (financially), it's a workable solution.


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## Manuel (Feb 1, 2007)

Oneiros said:


> LOL. What's wrong with being self-taught? If you're smart and/or poor (financially), *it's a workable solution*.


*It never is. *There's a universe of details you will never know about. And thousands of mistakes your persistence will perfect. _What about, lets say, hand rotation?_


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## Oneiros (Aug 28, 2006)

In a way I agree - if you want to become a professional, or just a very good musician, then lessons would be necessary at some point. But if its just for playing domestically every now and then, or you're just starting out, I don't think lessons are needed in every case. It depends on the person - some people need the discipline of a teacher, the step-by-step guidance, etc.

What I'm saying is that lower standards are acceptable for non-professionals, depending on the person's ambition. Not everyone needs nor wants to play really well, or without technical errors, etc.

If it works, it works.


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## Manuel (Feb 1, 2007)

Oneiros said:


> What I'm saying is that lower standards are acceptable for non-professionals, depending on the person's ambition. Not everyone needs nor wants to play really well, or without technical errors, etc.


And he who has such lower standards must know beforehand he will never be able to play Chopin, Liszt, Rachmaninov, Bach, Alkan, Mozart, Ravel, Debussy, Ligeti...


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## artisan (Nov 19, 2007)

uhh, excuse me! I am self taught, have been playing for 6 years, I play most of the composers you listed, (yes I know about hand rotation) My history is very bad, but that is because I don't have time to study. But as far as actually playing, I can't seem to find a teacher who teaches me things I don't already know. Every teacher I've ever had tells me mostly all I really need is better sight reading skills, (I already knew that ) and they just give me a few tips, tell me practice lots and lots, and that's it. Otherwise, they just sit and watch me and say "very good! your done now". Now I don't mean to brag on myself, but I do mean to say, that with a lot of self motivation, and some searching and studying, you can go a long way. And of course, it depends on the person. Some people have the gift of teaching themselves, while others just can't. If teaching yourself burns you out, then get a teacher. But with me, having a teacher hasn't worked. For someone who can't afford it, but may need a little guidance, having a good teacher give you a lesson, say, once a month or so may be a good option.


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## Pianoforte (Jul 27, 2007)

I've hit a brick wall with the learning of k545 and its because I'm getting frustrated at not being good enough to read the music even though I can play it in my head. I've been spending time learning the right hand part and am now struggling syncing the left hand with the right. Also, the right hand twiddly bit in the 4th bar is beyond me. I just dont get it. Its amplified in the attached score. I've got a youtube vid of a young kid in his pyjamas sat at a piano playing through the whole piece. He does a stirling job if a little slow but that helps me pick it up but I just can't get that bit. I'm going to spend the next month or two really getting to grips with the basics of score reading and work on this piece some more and then I fell I'll have something to bring to music lessons instead of being a blank canvas.

http://www.sheetmusicarchive.net/compositions_b/mzsn_fac.pdf


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## artisan (Nov 19, 2007)

Ah, it sound as if you need a bit of work on trills and timing. Have you learned the left hand well? most of the time having the left hand down well will help the rest to fall into place, since it is the baseline that defines the chord. Also, as you get into more advanced sight reading, you should keep in mind that you should read from the bottom up. Reading from the top down is probably one of the most common mistakes people make. For timing, get to where you can count the timing out evenly while playing the left hand. This has always helped me. Timing is important, and eventually, you will be able to "feel" it. I think another mistake lots of people make is they learn the right hand first, and then try to sync the left hand with the right, when it should be the other way around. As for trills, I don't know how to explain those, maybe someone else would do a better job of that. Ok, I am going to stop now. I can't seem to say anything without making it long and drawn out. You will have fun playing this sonata once you learn it! Good luck to you.


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