# Franz Welser-Möst and The Cleveland Orchestra



## cco (Oct 8, 2021)

Hello,

i have seen that Fran Welser-Möst and The Cleveland Orchestra play in Lucerne and Linz in 2022. Now i think about to go to one concert. I have never seen before Welser-Möst or the Cleveland Orchestra. What do people think about this partnership ? Is it a world class combination or an average American Orchestra. I have read, that Cleveland is the European American Orchestra. But i don´t know for what this orchestra stands out such as the Chicago Symphony for his brass section. Maybe people here can say a little bit about the Welser-Möst / Cleveland combination or have a experience.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

This may be a bit unfair for me to respond to since I don't live in Cleveland and don't hear the orchestra live much, and their recording output has pretty much stopped - like everyone else. But I have traveled to Cleveland a number of times to hear a concert and I've heard them many times over the years when they were on tour. It is, without any doubt in my mind, the single most virtuoso orchestra anywhere. They play with a finesse, brilliance, rhythmic accuracy and flawless intonation that is stunning. How in the world they manage to maintain that level of playing in a god forsaken place like Cleveland (sorry, Clevelanders) is amazing enough. It's one orchestra that hasn't changed its playing much, at least in the 50 years I've heard them. Of course the personnel has changed, but they still maintain George Szell's level. Every section is at least as good as anyone; Chicago used to be known for its brass section, but even those days are in the past. The Cleveland string playing is just breathtaking.

As for maestro FWM - he produces excellent, solid, musical performances. Nothing to complain about...but not always the most emotionally charged or exciting. And that's been a problem not only for Cleveland but all the major orchestras. Where have all the great conductors gone? FWM is not a flashy conductor and tends to favor the German/Austrian repertoire - and that seems to be fine with the local audiences. The guest conductors bring a lot of other music that demonstrates beyond question the ability of the orchestra to play French and Russian literature as well as anyone. Is it a world-class combination between the CO and FWM? Well, it's not as famous also Solti & Chicago, Bernstein & NY, Karajan & Berlin, but it should be! The decline of the recording business, the near stoppage of recording in the US and the general poor state of classical music has meant the exposure of FWM/CO isn't much.


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## John Zito (Sep 11, 2021)

When Welser-Möst and the orchestra tour, the reviews usually say something like "Welser-Möst has been a good steward and maintained the high playing standards of the orchestra, but interpretively he's rather bland or hit-and-miss." I heard them dozens of times when I lived in Cleveland, and I would say that's fair. Although, if you read the history of the orchestra, you learn that people said exactly the same thing about Szell, Maazel, and Dohnányi.

Welser-Möst's best recordings are probably the ones of Schmidt's oratorio _The Book with Seven Seals_ and Korngold's Symphony in F-sharp:

















The best recording Welser-Möst and the Cleveland Orchestra have made together is probably the live _Rusalka_ from the Salzburg Festival:









So you could sample those and see if you like what you hear.


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

My least favorite living conductor this side of Duhamel.
I tried to stomach some of his Cleveland Brahms and Bruckner... horrible, bloodless, metronomical and ice-cold. Szell and Dohnanyi could be cold and robotical too but sometimes they were capable of a healthy mix of elegance, refinement and technical excellence. Welser-Möst seems content to play just the notes with the bare minimum of expression, and sometimes even less.


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## cco (Oct 8, 2021)

In Europe 2022 I can see so many US Orchestras. New York, Boston, Philadelphia, Cleveland, Pittsburgh and so on. So i have to decide what i should see. But it is difficult.


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## SearsPoncho (Sep 23, 2020)

I would strongly recommend attending that concert. Welser-Most and the Cleveland Orchestra come to our area frequently. They are as good or better than any orchestra I've ever seen, and that includes the Berlin Philharmonic, the Vienna Philharmonic, the Concertgebouw, the Philadelphia Orchestra, the Chicago Symphony, the N.Y. Philharmonic, the London Symphony, etc. The Cleveland Orchestra has reached a point (a long time ago) where they would be a 1st-class orchestra without a conductor, and that is Welser-Most's strength: he seems to trust the orchestra and usually stays out of their way, or at least it appears that way. He has committed a few unforgivable sins which have not endeared him to the classical media: he looks like an accountant, he doesn't appear to have an oversized ego or personality, he's not really identified with one composer or kind of music, I don't believe I've heard his recordings mentioned as reference recordings or desert island stuff, he doesn't act like a diva, and he doesn't appear to have a style that he applies to all composers. While he doesn't seem to inspire much excitement among the classical media, every concert of his I've attended has been very satisfying. His interpretations are not "change your life" experiences, but they're solid on every level, which is all that's necessary because the Cleveland Orchestra is one of the greatest ensembles in the world. That instrument is worth hearing, and I would encourage you to do so.


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## cco (Oct 8, 2021)

Cleveland has three Programms in Europe. In Linz they play Richard Strauss op.23, 28, 59 and Alban Berg three pieces from the lyric suite for string orchestra. In Lucerne they play Schubert D944 and Richard Strauss op 23. or on the other Day Wolfgang Rihm Verwandlung (Transformation) 2 and 3 for Orchestra and Bruckner WAB 109. So thats all good Programms i think. So hard to decide.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

I'd definitely go to as many of those concerts as I could.


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## cco (Oct 8, 2021)

Both Linz and Lucerne are far away from my hometown. So i can go not to both Cities. Another factor, Linz tickets are around 100 Euro and Lucerne are around 320 Euro. So thats Switzerland...


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

I haven't heard Cleveland in a long time...I used to hear them with Szell pretty frequently [great]....I thought Dohnanyi really wrecked the Szell sound....I heard them play Bruckner 7 in Boston Symphony Hall...the brass had a very diffuse, spread out, unfocused sound - you heard brass, but you didn't hear the actual pitch changes in individual instruments, the tones were not centered...Szell would never have gone for that...the woodwinds were very good, so were the strings....of course, now, so much of the personnel has changed, I don't know how they sound at present.


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## cco (Oct 8, 2021)

Some say they sound like a European Orchestra. That is not the badest sound


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## VoiceFromTheEther (Aug 6, 2021)

Concertgebouw, Vienna, Berlin, Dresden, Cleveland

this would be my top 5 in the world right now.

*Edit:* honourable mention to the L.A. Phil


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## cco (Oct 8, 2021)

Oh and what is with London SO and Chicago


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## VoiceFromTheEther (Aug 6, 2021)

cco said:


> Oh and what is with London SO and Chicago


The quality of the LSO, like that of other British orchestras, has fluctuated greatly over the decades. I wouldn't say they are in their best shape right now (neither is Cleveland, but they are more cohesive and controlled).

Chicago never convinced me in the first place.


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## cco (Oct 8, 2021)

Oh and Boston and Philadelphia. also great Orchestras...Maybe the first ten or so are so close together that it is difficult to make a ranking. I think it is the personal feeling who is better or not..


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## FrankinUsa (Aug 3, 2021)

I would echo the comment made above by mbhaub. For the OP,if the program suits your liking then I would go listen to the Cleveland Orchestra. If by any chance you do go see them maybe you can come back and report on your thoughts 
The Cleveland Orchestra is now streaming on IDAGIO if you have access to that. I have seen the orchestra many times at Carnegie Hall. I have one unique observation. No matter what piece ,the string players don't use a lot of body motion so VISUALLY it may seem that they are not getting "into" the piece although what you HEAR is stunning . I have seen a trend in the last few years where orchestra string players are weaving and swerving so that VISUALLY it looks like they are getting "into" the price but I am not convinced that more body motion adds to the playing.


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## cco (Oct 8, 2021)

I have now bought a ticket for Linz in September. Maybe they will play another concert in Germany. Then i will go there too. Lucerne is much more expensive and i don´t know why. Strauss and Berg is a great Programm. The Berg piece is for string orchestra and not often played. I will love that...


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

FrankinUsa said:


> ......I have seen a trend in the last few years where orchestra string players are weaving and swerving so that VISUALLY it looks like they are getting "into" the price but I am not convinced that more body motion adds to the playing.


I played for a conductor who was totally into that visual stuff - he wanted exaggerated body English - lots of bobbing and weaving, rocking around - he even tried to put that into the job requirements!! musicians must look "convincing" when onstage!! The guy was clueless....he wanted the woodwinds to bob and weave, rock up and down, sway back and forth - this supposedly produced the image of great musicianship and ensemble...he wanted the percussionists to look/act more like the Blue Man Group**!! What a crock of horse dung!!
The orchestra unionized, and all that nonsense was immediately scrapped....

**Comic musical & artistic show featuring lots of audience interaction with the blue-painted cast.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Heck148 said:


> I played for a conductor who was totally into that visual stuff - he wanted exaggerated body English - lots of bobbing and weaving, rocking around - he even tried to put that into the job requirements!! musicians must look "convincing" when onstage!!






> The orchestra unionized, and all that nonsense was immediately scrapped....


I'm so very glad to read this!

It's very annoying to me how much BS hocus pocus masquerades as "expression" and "emotion" in music...


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Do you mean Gustavo Dudamel, music director of the Los Angeles Philharmonic and who recently became music director of the Paris Bastille opera ? I've heard a fair number of his recordings, mostly with the Simon Bolivar youth orchestra on DG , and I couldn't disagree more . 
He's definitely one of the most gifted conductors of. the generation born around 1980 or after, and he's no mere good looking glamor boy but the real McCoy . 
He is one of several conductors currently being considered to succeed Jaap van Zweden when he leaves the New York Philharmonic in 2024 , and I think he would be an excellent choice . Orchestra musicians everywhere really enjoy playing under him from all reports I've heard .


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

superhorn said:


> Do you mean Gustavo Dudamel, music director of the Los Angeles Philharmonic and who recently became music director of the Paris Bastille opera ? .....
> He is one of several conductors currently being considered to succeed Jaap van Zweden when he leaves the New York Philharmonic in 2024 , and I think he would be an excellent choice . Orchestra musicians everywhere really enjoy playing under him from all reports I've heard .


I'm still undecided about Dudamel....I have heard some of his performances on YouTube....they were OK, decent...
I know he conducted the score for the new West Side Story movie that came out recently....it's good, well done, but not at the level of Bernstein himself [DG recording with Te Kanawa, Carreras, etc] or Max Goberman [original show soundtrack] 
I need to hear a bit more from him...he certainly has potential...


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