# CPE Bach. Just how good was he?



## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

If JS Bach is a ten there where does his famous son come in comparison? I reckon at least an eight. I say this because he bridged the baroque and classical eras and influenced many future composers. Even though you can hear his father in his music there is something progressive driving it on. He wrote some amazing concertos and symphonies, and his keyboard sonatas are quite perfect as I find in their succinct mannerisms and perfect sonata forms. Mozart and Clementi built on CPE Bach's model and took it a bit further, broadening the form before Haydn and eventually Beethoven and Schubert taking piano sonatas to the nth degree. 

What do others think about CPE Bach? Was he the best Bach sibling? Was WF Bach even better?

Apologies if there have been threads before regarding this topic.


----------



## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I used to enjoy CPE a lot more than I do now. He is as you say a lot like JS, but with much more -- bombast? I mean that in a good way. But as I've gotten older I find his music a little abrupt and frenetic -- very good, but not always suitable for a guy who has had a rough day at the office. (Mendelssohn is often like this too.) 

I won't try to assign numbers to him, but I do think he is important and look forward to collecting his music again, maybe after I retire. 

Lately I think W F Bach's music is quirkier, almost chromatic sometimes and unexpected. I'm finding him more to my current taste.


----------



## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

Agree with above. Although CPE was more prolific, preferring WF a bit more these days. JC is probably tied in 2nd place with CPE. 

Good thread.


----------



## Heliogabo (Dec 29, 2014)

I like CPE Bach, but I find the music of WF much more intriguing.


----------



## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Being the foremost composer of any generation, and I think this is true of CPE, shouldn't be dismissed lightly. Nor should having earned the highest praise of Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven.


----------



## premont (May 7, 2015)

I consider him an important transition figure, but well, the Empfindliche Stil never did much for me.


----------



## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

I like CPE and understand his importance in the History of music. As others have alluded to, his music can just be to frenetic. There are some works where he seems to change course every 12 measures


----------



## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

I think I like the bombastic nature of his music. The way it powers itself along almost relentlessly, putting the listening into an anxious euphoric state if such a thing is possible. The opening theme and its continuation to his symphony in D major Wq 183/1 (mov one) is a good example of this. I would say he is better than Haydn and perhaps just slightly behind Mozart.


----------



## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

CPE was one the most influential 18th century composers, influencing Haydn and Classicism. He was one who wrote all the early symphonies and piano concertos that became the foundation for many great composers'.

His music was highly original, of course.


----------



## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I like his concertos. In general, I find him a composer who never really disappoints, but also never really excites me. Still a bit above his brothers.


----------



## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

I think he is better than many of his contemporaries - have listened to many of his symphonies and concerti, solo kb and like them - but not good enough to be memorable or worth more than 1 listen per piece. He remains and most likely will remain a minor figure.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I'm not sure who's "best" but I certainly enjoy CPE's works more than those of his siblings. I love his abrupt herky-jerky style that keeps you off-balance. Sinfonias, clavier concerti, and transverse flute concerti, I like 'em all!

He was fading fast even in Beethoven's time. From 1809: "Of Emanuel Bach's clavier works I have only a few, yet they must be not only a real delight to every true artist, but also serve him for study purposes; and it is for me a great pleasure to play works that I have never seen, or seldom see, for real art lovers."


----------



## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

CPE was also the "direct product" of his great father - the nurturing, the genius of the Bach household and that transition period from High Baroque to Classical. The scholars has completed the complete edition of CPE Bach's works, here

*http://cpebach.org/*


----------



## Myriadi (Mar 6, 2016)

I think CPE Bach is a little bit like Haydn. Both loved writing experimental, subversive music, full of nuance and subtlety. Both were stupidly pigeonholed by later generations, into "music which constantly jumps from one thing to another" (CPE) and "happy, cheerful music full of humor" (Haydn). And neither thought an attractive melody to be essential to the success of the music. Because history chose a different approach - the very romantic notion of melodies' all-importance - one fell into neglect, and another is, I believe, usually simply acknowledged, rather than loved. Father of the symphony, etc., but not many people know his symphonies as well as they do Beethoven's, for example.

For those who only know CPE's "contrasts" in e.g. keyboard works, I think listening to Gellert Odes would be interesting. Here's one of the few recordings available on Youtube:




There exists wonderful record of these songs by Dorothee Mields and Ludger Rémy. And if you're willing to listen attentively for nuances in music, try the Gesualdo Consort recording of the Two Litanies Wq. 204 - a late experimental piece, slow and minimalistic, repeating the same lines over and over again with new schemes of harmonization.


----------



## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Very very good. The string symphonies are often overlooked by the later Hamburgs, but they have just as much to offer. This one is unusual, almost Scarlatti like: 




Great keyboard concerto movements like this one(pay attention to the harmonic oddity of the downward descending phrase and the vigorous Bachian/Vivaldia aspect of the subsequent rising part, this is a phrase that is unbroken and really stimulating if you follow it's whole progress):





Example of thematically inspired and unpredictable sonata in G major, listen to that finale for some richness that's hard to miss:


----------



## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

clavichorder said:


> *Very very good*. The string symphonies are often overlooked by the later Hamburgs, but they have just as much to offer. This one is unusual, almost Scarlatti like:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Agreed! The C major (#3) and B minor (#5) string symphonies are my favorites of the set, especially the slow movement on B-A-C-H in #3. These, the Hamburg Symphonies, and the Prussian Sonatas, along with his best keyboard concertos (I have recordings of more than half of them), are among the 18thc's most important instrumental music. But there are fantasies, organ, works, cantatas, trio sonatas and so much more beyond this.


----------



## Juan Gonzalez (Mar 17, 2016)

Well, in organ works, he is considered a very important composer. His fuges are exceptional (I suppose his father was quite strict on that :lol. It's a bit difficult to find good recordings though. Two quick examples:


----------



## dieter (Feb 26, 2016)

He was simply a great, individualistic composer, comparable to nobody. In other words, he wrote his own music. I love it. I never compare his music to anybody else's. He's CPE Bach. Great composer, simple as that.I don't like comparing one composer to another. Same with writers, artists, cuisines, wines, they're all what they are.


----------



## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

You could say that CPE touched the spirit that helped set apart his father, more than any of the other Bach sons(WF had more contrapuntal and melodic capacity, but was more of a broken romantic before his time; JC tapped into a certain naivety that has more in common with Handel). JS was incredibly different and even more than that. But the original mind in his father, he was able to uncover for himself, as Haydn did in the next generation.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

An unusual and beautiful transcription by CPE.


----------



## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

KenOC said:


> An unusual and beautiful transcription by CPE.


Brilliant, not a note wasted.


----------



## Jordan Workman (May 9, 2016)

Johann Sebastian Bach was the greatest of the German composers (even better than Ludwig van Beethoven who as I'm sure you already know by the way was DEAF), the greatest composer of Bass lines, made great Cello and Organ pieces (Cello Suit No. 1, Toccata and Fugue, etc, some of the best in history), he created his own musical mathematical formulas (that you can even get a PhD in today), etc. But I consider Gioachino Rossini, Antonio Vivaldi, and Vincenzo Bellini (and other Italian composers who are highly underrated) to be even greater than he was. I consider Gioachino Rossini to be the greatest composer in all of history.


----------



## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

J.S. Bach was great. We are in fact talking about CPE Bach though, his 2nd composer son.


----------



## violadude (May 2, 2011)

CPE Bach had a highly original voice that can't be found anywhere else. So yes, he is pretty great, and even more importantly, indispensable. I don't think it's too controversial to say that he was the "best" Bach son.


----------



## kanishknishar (Aug 10, 2015)

*How can there be doubt?*

You call it bombast, I call it extroverted.

He was _very _*good.* 
You don't have widespread influence over your contemporaries for decades if you weren't _good_.


----------

