# Approaching Wagner



## Lipatti (Oct 9, 2010)

Now that my last semester exam is over, I have more than a month of free time left at my disposition to watch as many operas as I want (with _good_ conscience ), and the first name on my list is Richard Wagner. I'm partly familiar with his character, his impact on music etc., but now I want to actually watch his operas, and not just listen to selected overtures, arias or choruses.

I'm particularly curious about Tristan und Isolde. They have it on Met player in HD, and I can't wait to watch it, but I feel like I would get a lot more out of my first viewing if I just did a little bit of homework first, by for instance reading a book about Wagner, or maybe even more specifically, about the work itself (or philosophical works that may have inspired Wagner to write it). I came across this book as I was browsing the internet, can anybody tell me if it's a worthy buy?









Anyway, I would be happy to receive any suggestions from you!


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## Lipatti (Oct 9, 2010)

It seems like the picture attachment didn't work. The book I'm enquiring about is entitled "The Wagner Compendium", and it's written by Barry Millington.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

No need to to read about Tristan, it's all other people's views. Work with such depth can be interpreted in many diffrent ways and it's your thing what you will make out of it. 

And I wouldn't be myself if I wouldn't mention that there is no good DVD recording of Tristan. 

Also, Tristan was my first Wagner opera to listen but now I don't think it was good idea to start with it. One has to learn how to listen to Wagner and without learning this he may in vain attempt to listen his most lenghty and ambitious works.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

My advice would be to listen to one act at a time and to give yourself a breather between them. Tristan& Isolde is an incredibly intense and emotional experience ,and can take time for you to digest metally,or for any one new to Wagner. 
I hope there are English subtitles ; follow them carefully. There's very little action in this opera; most of the time you're and listening to the characters revealing their innermost feelings,so if you don't concentrate it CAN be boring at first.
I got accustomed over 40 years ago when I was a teenager,long before DVD and the internet ,to listening to complete operas on LP and to follow the booklet which contains the synopsis,the original libretto and an Englush translation next to it . 
I've never regretted this;it made me an opera fan for life.


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## Lipatti (Oct 9, 2010)

Aramis said:


> No need to to read about Tristan, it's all other people's views.


I'm aware of the risk of reading other people's interpretations, I simply thought it would have been interesting to know something about the ideas that prompted Wagner to write the opera and stuff like this. I think I'll just go with whatever I can find on the internet. And besides, approaching Tristan und Isolde completely fresh of mind is surely not a bad idea either. I can do the reading afterwards.


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## Lipatti (Oct 9, 2010)

superhorn said:


> My advice would be to listen to one act at a time and to give yourself a breather between them. Tristan& Isolde is an incredibly intense and emotional experience ,and can take time for you to digest metally,or for any one new to Wagner.
> I hope there are English subtitles ; follow them carefully. There's very little action in this opera; most of the time you're and listening to the characters revealing their innermost feelings,so if you don't concentrate it CAN be boring at first.
> I got accustomed over 40 years ago when I was a teenager,long before DVD and the internet ,to listening to complete operas on LP and to follow the booklet which contains the synopsis,the original libretto and an Englush translation next to it .
> I've never regretted this;it made me an opera fan for life.


This would be another great way to approach it, yes. Actually, I do have a Karl Böhm recording of Tristan und Isolde from 1966, and it sounds utterly fantastic. And I can also see that a full libretto with the original German and the English translation side by side is to be found at rwagner.net. Might be the best way to go for a beginner.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

My first real experience with Wagner was hearing Das Rheingold, I believe a live MET performance broadcast by James Levine in his last complete Ring traversal a few years ago. I was absolutely transfixed, and I had no libretto (this was the same as my latest big experience with Wagner, Tristan conducted by Furtwangler, also no libretto, also one of the most inspiring and intense experiences of my life). I just sat there, glued to the score that I had with me, and found so many great things within the score that I had no idea were there before.

The thing that fascinated me most about hearing Tristan without a libretto was just how intense a very plain procedure could become. You basically just have an opera where musically the only thing that happens is a series of chords that never resolve until four hours later. When I first heard about this, I thought "well, this can't be all that great, it must be tremendously boring." When I first heard it, though, I felt what Bruno Walter must have felt when he first heard it. It really is one of the most intense musical experiences out there (the big love duet lasts about 40 minutes, but it never once sounds tedious, and the climax is indescribable).

I don't know where one _should_ start with Wagner. I feel his music is too all-encompassing (eat your heart out Mahler) to say definitely "start here." However, wherever you start, make sure it's not an historical recording, and if it is, make sure it has decent sound and clarity; no matter what you hear about Kraus' Bayreuth Ring, DON'T make it your first. Also (this goes with the previous point) make sure the orchestra is very audible. Much of Wagner's operatic stuff is like a four-hour long symphony with vocal soloists; the orchestra functions as the chorus in the Greek drama, revealing the characters' thoughts and what the scene is all about. So no matter how good the singers are, the orchestra must be at least as good.

All this is from a string player's perspective, of course (and one who gets to sit in the middle of an orchestra where all the details converge), so take all of this with a bit of a grain of salt. This is just my experience with Wagner so far.


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## Herkku (Apr 18, 2010)

Two books that I have read are "The Complete Operas of Richard Wagner" by Charles Osborne and "The Wagner Operas" by Ernest Newman. The one by Osborne is shorter.

Both are worth reading and give also some background information of Wagner's life during the composing.

If I remenber correctly, my first encounter (of the best kind) with T&E was the recording with Dernesch/Vickers/Karajan and even if I didn't understand everything that was going on, I enjoyed it enormously. "Sink hernieder, Nacht der Liebe!" and the "Liebestod" don't exactly need translation: it's all in the music. I also love the Nilsson/Windgassen/Böhm version!


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## Poppin' Fresh (Oct 24, 2009)

Lipatti said:


> I'm aware of the risk of reading other people's interpretations, I simply thought it would have been interesting to know something about the ideas that prompted Wagner to write the opera and stuff like this. I think I'll just go with whatever I can find on the internet. And besides, approaching Tristan und Isolde completely fresh of mind is surely not a bad idea either. I can do the reading afterwards.


I've read well over a dozen books on Wagner, covering everything from his biography, his marriage, his works. Two of my favorites that dig into the ideas of the operas (and cover the one you are looking at, _Tristan und Isolde_) are _The Tristan Chord: Wagner and Philosophy_ by Bryan Magee and _Wagner_ by Michael Tanner.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Welcome to a lifetime of pleasure listening to Wagner.
There is no right and wrong. Wagner's music is so overwhelming, so exquisite, so sublime, that I actually think that any approaching point is likely to pay off.
Read about the operas, don't read about the operas, start with accessible works like Meistersinger, start with demanding works like T&I... it hardly matters. If you are a music lover, there is no way the master won't touch you.
But if you want to read about him before attacking T&I, sure, why not? I'd recommend _The Tristan Chord _by Magee or _The Wagner Operas _by Newman.
T&I is one of the greatest artistic creations of all of humankind. Its impact, its power, its emotional potency are such that if you don't get dragged into its beauty and it doesn't bring tears to your eyes, you're not a member of the H. Sapiens species.
T&I doesn't need staging. It's an intimate, introspective work. You're probably better off with the recording and the libretto. But there are fine DVDs of it. I particularly recommend the one with Nina Stemme as Isolde, she is such an outstanding actress! She is so angry at first, and so loving afterwards!
Here is my take on learning about Wagner's life and philosophical influences: it doesn't matter. Some scholars say that Wagner wasn't that sharp as a philosopher. He was certainly, in my opinion (and in that of many others) a despicable human being, a megalomaniac narcissistic womanizer racist no good. But in spite of this, he came to this world equipped with a rare gift, that of writing some of the most outstanding and fulfilling music ever composed. For this, I forgive his shortcomings, because he has enhanced my life and that of many others. My life is better, more pleasurable, more enjoyable because a man called Richard Wagner composed the masterpieces he left behind as a present to all of us. Sure, as an afterthought, do learn about his life and philosophical influences. It's fun to know about this, and it might in a marginal way enhance your understanding of the works. But remember, his works are musical works. It's the music that is really exquisite. As a thinker, Wagner was likely a second rate thinker. As a musician, he was at the very top.
Some people will tell you that you should start with the light stuff like the Flying Dutchman or the Mastersingers.
That's a good way, that's fine. But like I said, any way will work, if you love music.
My start was the Ring.
My very first contact with Wagner was a several days long watching of the Met/Levine Ring on DVD, all 16 hours of it.
Before that, my ears had never caught a note composed by Wagner, except for some stuff in popular culture like the Apocalypse Now movie and the Bridal chorus.
And then my wife gave me as a Christmas present the box set of the Met/Levine Ring.
So I kissed her, thanked her, and thought, "Wow, that's a nice wife, she's anticipating my wishes, I've been willing to explore Wagner's music for a while, she goes and buys it for me, and it's fairly expensive, I'm lucky to have such a thoughtful wife. I need to give this a try."
Then, next thing, I sit in front of my TV and pop Disc 1 (Das Rheingold) into the DVD player.
A few days and 16 hours of music later, I surface up, completely dazzled, in a dream-like state.
I finished the last few notes of The Twilight of the Gods at about 1 AM, the house silent, I'm wearing headphones not to disturb the wife who is sound asleep by then (she knows Wagner well enough, she doesn't need to listen to it until 1 AM any longer).
I turn the TV off, and I stay there, sitting on my chair, the entire house silent and dark, and I actually say out loud to myself: "Wow. Wow. Wow."
I stay there in the dark for a full 60 minutes, stunned, incapable of moving, thinking about the experience I've been through. I feel like life is worth living, because there is so much pleasure to get from life, from music.
Then the next day (it was a Sunday) I go to work. I'm dreamy and spaced out.
People ask, "What is wrong with you today?"
I say, "Nothing, just a case of Wagneritis."
They say, "What???"
I say, "Never mind."
Can my co-workers even start understanding it? They haven't been through the Ring like I've just been. I can't explain it to them. Humankind just got divided in two categories: people who have experienced the Ring, and people who haven't. No possible communication between them.
Then I get home from work and kiss my wife hard, how privileged am I for having a wife who has introduced me to Wagner's Ring? (she plays the piano, loves opera too, what a perfect wife! Oh, and by the way, she is pretty and sexy).
My next one is Tristan und Isolde. Similar effect, in many aspects even better.
And then this privileged life of being a Wagner fan begins, and it's still going strong. I have explored all of his 10 major operas except one (it's coming, I'm getting it tomorrow) and there isn't a single note, a single leitmotif that I haven't loved.

So, welcome to the flock. You'll love it. I can guarantee it. Wagner is great, and whatever path you pick into his music, you'll be pleased.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Almaviva... you really know how to sell Wagner.:lol: And here I am toying with purchasing the Charles Mackerras box set of Janacek's operas... after the lovely experience of my first listening to his Excursions of _Mr. Broucek_... and yet I have yet to get around to completing my collection of Wagner with a cycle of the complete Ring. Truly! What am I thinking?! It's like wasting money on John Cage (the shame! the shame!) when I have yet to complete the entire cycle of Bach's cantatas. I must really set my priorities straight!:lol:

:tiphat:


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Almaviva... you really know how to sell Wagner.:lol: And here I am toying with purchasing the Charles Mackerras box set of Janacek's operas... after the lovely experience of my first listening to his Excursions of _Mr. Broucek_... and yet I have yet to get around to completing my collection of Wagner with a cycle of the complete Ring. Truly! What am I thinking?! It's like wasting money on John Cage (the shame! the shame!) when I have yet to complete the entire cycle of Bach's cantatas. I must really set my priorities straight!:lol:
> 
> :tiphat:


I've been exploring Janacek myself; so far so good, just the beginning of it - _The Cunning Little Vixen_, and _Jenufa_. I loved both, the latter even more. I've purchased _From the House of the Dead_, it's on my unwatched pile. I'm getting _Kata Kabanova_ from Netflix soon. I'm very curious about _The Makropolus Case _(spelling?)_._
Janacek was an outstanding composer.

But I hear you. Wagner's Ring is _hors concours._

I was consulting a list of major operas one of these days, and the author ranks them in a system of A-B-C-D. When he gets to the Ring, he rates it X, for extra, outside of this league, completely above everything else.

That's why the Ring got rated the best opera(s) in the DDD list, and in our own list (see the top 100 recommended operas thread).


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Almaviva... you really know how to sell Wagner.:lol:


You said it... I really need to listen to some Wagner.

...hey, wait a minute.


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## scytheavatar (Aug 27, 2009)

Tip: whatever you do, DO NOT watch the 1999 MET Tristan und Isolde. It's one of the worst opera DVDs I have ever had the displeasure to watch, not so much because it features 2 heavyweights in the lead roles but because the whole production was a cheapskate disaster. I haven't watch the 2008 Tristan so I have no idea if it's much better. I recommend you to start with the MET's Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg instead; it's a very good production with a reasonbly good cast (although Morris's Sach wasn't that good). The MET's Parsifal is decent too, but to be honest one problem is that Levine is often a horrible Wagner conductor which limits how good MET's Wagner productions can be.

Outside of MET's offering I recommend you to start with these DVDs instead:

http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Fliege...ef=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1291186339&sr=1-2

http://www.amazon.com/Tannhauser-He...ef=sr_1_1?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1291186297&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Loheng...ef=sr_1_4?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1291186366&sr=1-4

http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Trista...O92O/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1291186255&sr=8-8

http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Die-Me...ef=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1291186275&sr=1-4

http://www.amazon.com/Ring-Nibelung...ef=sr_1_6?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1291186461&sr=1-6

http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Parsifal-Siegfried-Jerusalem/dp/B000PC1N4A/ref=pd_bxgy_d_img_b

I think Die Meistersinger is probably the best opera to start listening to Wagner in, cause although it's his longest work (if you consider Der Ring as 4 seperate operas) it's also his most consistently good work with the least dragged out parts and also one that has fared very well in recordings, both CD and DVD. Don't start with Der Ring; no matter what recording you listen to there must be at least 1 major weak link in the entire cycle.


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## Gualtier Malde (Nov 14, 2010)

Lipatti said:


> They have it on Met player in HD, and I can't wait to watch it, but I feel like I would get a lot more out of my first viewing if I just did a little bit of homework first, by for instance reading a book about Wagner, or maybe even more specifically, about the work itself (or philosophical works that may have inspired Wagner to write it). I came across this book as I was browsing the internet, can anybody tell me if it's a worthy buy?
> 
> Anyway, I would be happy to receive any suggestions from you!


I don't know the book you mentioned, but I find this:

http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Operas...7161/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1291249614&sr=8-1

a very useful source for the serious Wagnerite. Interesting background information on Wagner's source materials plus some musical analysis that will help you navigate your way through the sea of leitmotifs. It's written in a no-nonsense style with only occasional outbursts of humor (see the footnote on Chinston Wurchill), rather british.
(I already convinced Almaviva to spend money on it.)


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Gualtier Malde said:


> (I already convinced Almaviva to spend money on it.)


That's not too difficult. I'm easy.


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## Gualtier Malde (Nov 14, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> That's not too difficult. I'm easy.


You're probably right, but even easy victories give pleasure. :lol:


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## Lipatti (Oct 9, 2010)

Tristan und Isolde was fantastic. The music was every bit as spectacular as I knew it would be and expected it to be, but what blew me off even more was the drama. I really didn't know Wagner was such a good dramatist. He's very careful in not portraying his characters as mere caricatures, but giving them all the deserved attention and crafting them with meticulous care. I would like to write more, but right now I'm quite speechless 

All in all, an extremely rewarding experience. I went with a pure audio version this time, which seems to be a very good way to explore opera - at least so it was on this particular occasion, where most of the development takes place on a philosophical and emotional level.


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