# "Naturistic" Composers



## BenG (Aug 28, 2018)

Which composers for you compose music that reminds you most of nature - nature as in the natural world. For me, it is Beethoven, especially pieces like the pastoral symphony and the adagio of his 15th string quartet. Sibelius also comes to mind.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

A number of Russian and American composers seem to me to create a sense of wide open outdoor spaces in their music.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

For me certainly Sibelius!


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Sibelius' works sound like they came from a primordial land of forests that would be hostile to humankind's attempts to make it part of his dominion.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

BenG said:


> Which composers for you compose music that reminds you most of nature - nature as in the natural world. For me, it is Beethoven, especially pieces like the pastoral symphony and the adagio of his 15th string quartet. Sibelius also comes to mind.


The adagio of his 15th string quartet sounds like someone solemnly praying and receiving episodes of joy. I don't see it.


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## BenG (Aug 28, 2018)

ORigel said:


> The adagio of his 15th string quartet sounds like someone solemnly praying and receiving episodes of joy. I don't see it.


Yes, I see why you would think that. I think it's merely my personal reaction to the music, I find the open string sound in it very naturistic.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

BenG said:


> Which composers for you compose music that reminds you most of nature - nature as in the natural world. For me, it is Beethoven, especially pieces like the pastoral symphony and the adagio of his 15th string quartet. Sibelius also comes to mind.


Bartok's night music, try this example for piano from his suite Out of Doors






The Wikipedia article looks very good on this aspect of Bartok's music - though I haven't read it closely

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_music_(Bartók)


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Not Sibelius. Start with the Ds. Debussy, Delius, Dvorak, and... 
Mahler.

Listen to Sibelius if you want Mountain Hero Action music that doesn't contour to the actual waves and patterns of nature.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

BenG said:


> Which composers for you compose music that reminds you most of nature - nature as in the natural world. For me, it is Beethoven, especially pieces like the pastoral symphony and the adagio of his 15th string quartet. Sibelius also comes to mind.


Wagner's evocation of a river in the Rheingold overture






And his Forest Murmurs music from Siegfried


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Berlioz's hunt and storm


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## Ravn (Jan 6, 2020)

The first composers and pieces that I could think of
- Rautavaara: The piece "Cantus Arcticus" is a wonderful concerto written for orchestra and birds(!). The rest of his music also makes me think of nature. Try his "Cantus Arcticus" and 7th symphony for an introduction.
- Respighi: The work "Pini di Roma" also incorporates bird sounds. It may depict an urban landscape better than nature though. Great piece (and great composer). I prefer Edo de Waart & San Francisco.
- Groven: Listen to the tone poem "Hjalarljod" and dream of Norwegian mountains
- Siegmund von Hausegger:"Natursymphonie". As I haven't read the liner notes, I'm not sure what he's trying to depict. It is, however, the greatest symphony you've never heard (my opinion, of course).



Ethereality said:


> Not Sibelius. Start with the Ds. Debussy, Delius, Dvorak, and...
> Mahler.
> 
> Listen to Sibelius if you want Mountain Hero Action music that doesn't contour to the actual waves and patterns of nature.


Sibelius wrote "Mountain Hero Action music"?? I strongly disagree, to say it politely. I've never experienced Sibelius that way, but I do believe that "Tapiola" and 4th and 7th symphonies fits the description "naturistic" quite well.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Hovhaness has a number, from the peaceful (Symphony No. 63, Op. 411, "Loon Lake") to the brutal (Symphony No. 50, Op. 360, "Mount St. Helens").


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Delius





Sibelius





Debussy





Percy Grainger





Carl Ruggles





Grieg (this is super well known)


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## Ravn (Jan 6, 2020)

I forgot Jón Leifs "Hekla".


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## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

I wonder how much the suggestive titles of many pieces of music induce me to experience the music as naturistic. For example, I experience the natural world in Borodin's _In the Steppes of Central Asia_, Bax's _November Woods_, and Delius's _Summer Evening_. At the very least, these pieces do not musically contradict their titles. But then there's Debussy's _La Mer_, which I think would sound like the sea even with a different title. The most evocative naturistic piece of music of all for me is Grofé's _Grand Canyon Suite_ with its clearly imitative elements.


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## Ravn (Jan 6, 2020)

Simplicissimus said:


> I wonder how much the suggestive titles of many pieces of music induce me to experience the music as naturistic. For example, I experience the natural world in Borodin's _In the Steppes of Central Asia_, Bax's _November Woods_, and Delius's _Summer Evening_. At the very least, these pieces do not musically contradict their titles. But then there's Debussy's _La Mer_, which I think would sound like the sea even with a different title. The most evocative naturistic piece of music of all for me is Grofé's _Grand Canyon Suite_ with its clearly imitative elements.


Agree. I don't think I would've thought of the ocean when hearing J. L. Adams's «Become Ocean» if it hadn't been for the title.


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

Ravn said:


> I forgot Jón Leifs "Hekla".


I was about to type "what - a dozen posts & no mention of Jón Leifs?"

What about geysir and drift ice? Enough with the chirping birds already.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Takemitsu
Rautavaara


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Gesundheit.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Most music conjures up images in my mind - sometimes these are fleeting or even more like a film (my mind's eye sees a scene that changes as if I was moving). Sibelius and some Bruckner are the most likely to reliably conjure up natural scenes.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

When I was vacationing in the mountains a month ago I couldn’t stop listening to Mahler because his music just seems to breath the air of rarefied, majestic Alpine valleys - especially the finale of the 3rd, the first movement of the 4th, and the Andante of the 6th.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Sibelius had an uncanny ability to transform the impersonal energies and atmospheres of nature into sound, and he did it without any overlay of sentiment. His music is primal, not pastoral. Before him, Wagner possessed the most imaginative grasp of nature sounds; the _Ring of the Nibelung_ is fllled with the music of birds, dragons, fire, river, forest, and storm.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Joseph Marx Nature Trilogy fits the description:


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Strauss - Alpine Symphony.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)




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## OperasAndPassions (Aug 14, 2020)

It seems Sibelius might be a good composer for my tastes.


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## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

Schumann's Waldszenen evokes nature really well


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## BenG (Aug 28, 2018)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> When I was vacationing in the mountains a month ago I couldn't stop listening to Mahler because his music just seems to breath the air of rarefied, majestic Alpine valleys - especially the finale of the 3rd, the first movement of the 4th, and the Andante of the 6th.


Yes, I feel the exact same way about 3 finale and 6 andante. These videos have simply beautiful pictures perfectly (in my view) matching the music and nature.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

The last 10 minutes of Tippett's The Midsummer Marriage, whose depiction of predawn/dawn is breathtaking.


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## Bill Cooke (May 20, 2017)

Arnold Bax is great at evoking the feelings of nature in tone poems such as "The Tale the Pine-Trees knew," "November woods" and "In the Faery Hills."

Debussy composed the most famous composition about the sea, "La Mer."

Many of Villa-Lobos' compositions are great at conjuring the sounds and moods of South American jungles. Among them: "Dawn in a Tropical Forest" and "Uirapuru."


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> Berlioz's hunt and storm


You've been found out! You pay attention to the 19th century after all.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

I came here to say Rautavaara and Takemitsu, but starthrower beat me to it.

I'll also add Vaughan Williams.


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## mahlernerd (Jan 19, 2020)

I know many find this piece quite tedious, but John Luther Adams' Become Ocean is a fantastic depiction of the ocean in my opinion.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Sibelius definitely appears like a non-nature person's interpretation of nature. I don't know how to describe my difference, but that's the best I can imagine it: 'What's the human's interpretation of the purpose of this animal?' 'Where are we going to build the house?' It's very low level, like asking the known geek 'where the real party at.' Is there anything wrong with his answer that the party is on 4-chan?

I can't disagree with them even though I don't see it. "Power up the RV and check the TV connection because we're going camping! We burnt the wieners, let's find a hotel." Why I don't think Sibelius is purely natural:



Woodduck said:


> Sibelius had an uncanny ability to transform the impersonal energies and atmospheres of nature into sound, and he did it without any overlay of sentiment. His music is primal, not pastoral.


I might, in-part, agree with the second sentence? but when you say "Sibelius captured the energies of nature without any overlay of sentiment," I would say his music is wholly sentimental, that's why it sounds maybe just 'primal' but with no indication of that or anything else 'natural' imo. Going back to what Ravn said, point to anything in nature that sounds like "Tapiola" or the 4th and 7th symphonies. To me these are 'dramatizations' of 'storytelling,' which may take place out in nature or in primal development, but hardly sound purely or strictly about nature imo. Essentially with him I have to make that leap of interpreting sounds as a symbol of 'someone's feelings about nature' such as 'humans anthromorphizing animals' or 'animals anthromorphizing their surroundings,' but nothing that's teaching or showing me about what is actually happening in nature:_ the pure sensations and personalities,_ the_ real_ aspects and details.

If we're dealing with nature, then inherently realism which I feel is more along the lines of the 3 D's strengths: Debussy, Dvorak, Delius, and Mahler, who set the stage as real nature all the time disguised 'in the form of' harmony and development.



Ravn said:


> Sibelius wrote "Mountain Hero Action music"?? I strongly disagree, to say it politely. I've never experienced Sibelius that way, but I do believe that "Tapiola" and 4th and 7th symphonies fits the description "naturistic" quite well.


I can't help to hear anything else but nature in the construction of rhythm and harmony of the 3 Ds, Debussy, Dvorak, Delius, and Mahler. Their art barely sounds like anything else.

Sibelius,_ maybe, _if his music also tells a bunch of other stories on human struggle or a human's anthromorphization of early psychology where capturing the sounds of nature aren't the prime goal. The thing is, Sibelius's music is inherently very deep and full of an array of psychology, and that is in contradiction with nature where we know that the most deep/complex system there is is the human brain. So it's kind of like Sibelius has the advantage of the weapon of choice, but shoots himself in the foot here. A non-nature person's interpretation of nature indeed.

I can't point to just _one _work like "Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony" to say that the composers above were wildly naturistic across the board. They just inherently are to me. That's what this thread is all about.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Ethereality said:


> Sibelius definitely appears like a non-nature person's interpretation of nature. I don't know how to describe my difference, but that's the best I can imagine it: 'What's the human's interpretation of the purpose of this animal?' 'Where are we going to build the house?' It's very low level, like asking the known geek 'where the real party at.' Is there anything wrong with his answer that the party is on 4-chan?
> 
> I can't disagree with them even though I don't see it. "Power up the RV and check the TV connection because we're going camping! We burnt the wieners, let's find a hotel." Why I don't think Sibelius is purely natural:
> 
> ...


I really don't get your position, and as you can see in this thread there are a lot of us who thinking about Sibelius see him as a great painter of mysterious, cold and eerie landscapes. His sense of sublime is the same that it's possible to see in a lot of romantic painters. I've recently made a connection with his music and the paintings of Peder Balke. But the connection could be seen also with Caspar Friedrich and literally a lot of artists working between the 19th and early 20th century.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Ethereality said:


> Sibelius definitely appears like a non-nature person's interpretation of nature. I don't know how to describe my difference, but that's the best I can imagine it: 'What's the human's interpretation of the purpose of this animal?' 'Where are we going to build the house?' It's very low level, like asking the known geek 'where the real party at.' Is there anything wrong with his answer that the party is on 4-chan?
> 
> I can't disagree with them even though I don't see it. "Power up the RV and check the TV connection because we're going camping! We burnt the wieners, let's find a hotel." Why I don't think Sibelius is purely natural:
> 
> ...


If you think Sibelius is "wholly sentimental" in his response to nature, how would you imagine an unsentimental depiction of naure in music might sound? Is that even possible? Would it be music at all, or just imitative noises?

I think you misunderstood my phrase, "without any overlay of sentiment." Everything hinges on the definition of words. I didn't intend to imply that Sibelius conveys no emotion. We can certainly disagree about what those emotions were. For me, "sentimental" doesn't describe them.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

And if Sibelius were "wholly sentimental in his response to nature" (which I don't necessarily think is true), would that actually be a bad thing?


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

BenG said:


> ... I find the open string sound [...] very naturistic.


Then perhaps you'll love Benjamin Franklin's string quartet. Does it get more nature-like than this? It seems you tune the three violins (or two violins and one viola) and cello with the required open strings and then play, never having to fret. Or fret!

https://www.sharmusic.com/Sheet-Music/Violin/Ensemble/Franklin-Benjamin---String-Quartet---Two-Violins-Viola-or-3rd-Violin-and-Cello---arranged-by-Michael-L-Vidulich---Nick-Stamon-Press.axd






I first encountered this work in the old vinyl box set from VoxBox2, _The Early String Quartet in the U.S.A._.









Upon my first hearing of the Franklin quartet, I did not immediately associate it with nature goings-on. Nor in any subsequent listens (which, I admit, have been rare). Perhaps I have to give it another try.

Maybe the next time I fly my kite in a lightning storm I'll put the Franklin quartet on the turntable for appropriate naturistic background music.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> If you think Sibelius is "wholly sentimental" in his response to nature, how would you imagine an unsentimental depiction of naure in music might sound? Is that even possible? Would it be music at all, or just imitative noises?
> 
> I think you misunderstood my phrase, "without any overlay of sentiment." Everything hinges on the definition of words. I didn't intend to imply that Sibelius conveys no emotion. We can certainly disagree about what those emotions were. For me, "sentimental" doesn't describe them.


I wonder what you think of this nature music. Is it sentimental? I don't know how to tell.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Mandryka said:


> I wonder what you think of this nature music. Is it sentimental? I don't know how to tell.


Forget that, this is better as an example


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Of course, what one terms "nature music" may prove deceptive.

One can take a hike deep into the forest, sit down on the moss beneath an old oak and ... listen. _That_ is the music of nature you hear. And there is plenty out there, from forest-scapes to sea-scapes to mountain-scapes to desert-valley-scapes ....

But we, humans, are also part of nature, inescapably so, and thus all sound we produce has its roots in nature, whether it be electronic keyboard generated imitation sea-shore waves music or whistled bird calls, _or_ electric guitar driven heavy metal or punk rock or industrial ... let alone Beethoven, Sibelius, and Ralph Vaughan Williams.

What goes on in the universe is naturistic music. Are we seeking instead music that reminds particular persons of particular things? It's obvious even from reading through the posts in this thread that one person's "nature music" is not necessarily another's?

I reflect on this as a road crew on the street outside my residence is jackhammering the pavement. As much as I would like to deny that this is the music of nature, I cannot. The road crew is breathing the same air as the birds and the trees and the same air which forms the pleasant breeze whispering past my face and the same air that powers the jackhammers. It's the same air I breathe, and you breathe. We are all in this together. We are all part of nature and the sounds of nature.

So, as the hammer crew starts its latest assault on the pavement, I settle down into my porch rocker to enjoy some naturistic "industrial" music, much of which reminds me of the German experimental rock group Einstürzende Neubauten. At least I'm trying to convince myself of that.

Too, I'm gaining a longing to hear some John Cage. But John Cage is naturistic music, too.

I would certainly settle for some Beethoven, Sibelius, or Ralph Vaughan Williams.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Here's another example to think about, Michael Finnissy's 3rd quartet. It starts out as more or less a regular string quartet, but about half way through the music is interrupted by bird song, and gradually as the quartet moves towards its end, the players are transformed into listeners, into people who are listening to the birds. Sentimental or not?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Mandryka said:


> Forget that, this is better as an example


The Ferrari sounds like a Modernist "Forest Murmurs," with the difference that the Wagner is a magical, musical reimagining of nature that doesn't have me thinking "Is this all there is?" The Wishart seems to be using human voices to represent nonhuman creatures. Clever and certainly not sentimental by any definition. I do have to say that my favorite parts are the actual recordings of loons. There isn't another sound like that in the world, especially if you've been in the northern lake country hearing it in person.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> The Ferrari sounds like a Modernist "Forest Murmurs," with the difference that the Wagner is a magical, musical reimagining of nature that doesn't have me thinking "Is this all there is?" The Wishart seems to be using human voices to represent nonhuman creatures. Clever and certainly not sentimental by any definition. I do have to say that my favorite parts are the actual recordings of loons. There isn't another sound like that in the world, especially if you've been in the northern lake country hearing it in person.


This reminded me of the utterly sublime Finale of Sibelius' 5th which is another great example of a compositional passage which was inspired by birds.

I actually think that, in general, the most "naturistic" composers were probably Romantic era composers which is quite logical as well, considering how the whole artistic movement praised nature. At least many composers whose music makes me think of nature in the most powerful way are Romantics and the early 20th century composers. Wagner's expressive genius and Sibelius' closeness with nature served them very well!


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> The Ferrari sounds like a Modernist "Forest Murmurs," with the difference that the Wagner is a magical, musical reimagining of nature that doesn't have me thinking "Is this all there is?" The Wishart seems to be using human voices to represent nonhuman creatures. Clever and certainly not sentimental by any definition. I do have to say that my favorite parts are the actual recordings of loons. There isn't another sound like that in the world, especially if you've been in the northern lake country hearing it in person.


I agree with most of this. Even Luc Farrari would agree that Wagner was a better composer of music than Luc Ferrari. And the loons are very good, Wishart is very clever.


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## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

When I first read the OP I thought you meant which composers composed in the _nude_!


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

KRoad said:


> When I first read the OP I thought you meant which composers composed in the _nude_!


do you mean like this?


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Mandryka said:


> Here's another example to think about, Michael Finnissy's 3rd quartet. It starts out as more or less a regular string quartet, but about half way through the music is interrupted by bird song, and gradually as the quartet moves towards its end, the players are transformed into listeners, into people who are listening to the birds. Sentimental or not?


Or, we can just skip the string quartet altogether and go outside and listen to the birds.


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## John O (Jan 16, 2021)

Could be interpreted as ‘Which composer composed in the nude’


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## John O (Jan 16, 2021)

I have always thought of Nielsen 4 more than any Sibelius symphonies as a Hero vs Nature. But this is not what Nielsen intended at all . Sibelius 2 slow movement was I believe originally a human story but from 3-7 Sibelius symphonies seem to be about nature not man


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## John O (Jan 16, 2021)

Dvorak symphonies 6 and 7 always seem like two different views of Central European country side : 6 civilised and 7 untamed esp. the last movement that sounds like a spooky forest.
I read a book on Dvorak symphonies and it claimed that Sym 5 and 8 were the pastorals ones.


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## John O (Jan 16, 2021)

There are multiple ways to answer this thread:
Traditional pieces that seem to invoke nature whether pastoral or invoking the rugged and sublime and one could make a list from Vivaldi to Sibelius and Vaughan Williams

Pieces that actual quote nature : bird song, insects, whales, waves , wind whether with instruments as in Beethoven 6, Bartok or Messiaen or using actual recordings of nature starting with Respighi.

Pieces that attempt to portray physical nature in a more modern way : John Luther Adams, various Nordic and Icelandic composers


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