# Unheralded French romantic orchestral composers



## Roger Knox

Currently I'm interested in information on unheralded French orchestral composers of the romantic/post-romantic era. I am familiar with standard reference sources and books on individual composers; also there is Bru-Zane, an information centre focused on French romantic music. But I'm looking for more information on who connects with who (or doesn't)-- stylistically, biographically, geographically, etc.

Also I'd appreciate any comments on this area and type of approach -- pro or con. It was helpful in doing the thread on German and Austrian composers but is it warranted for France?


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## MarkW

I can only tell you what I have liked, without any of the info you want:

Delibes, Lalo, Magnard, some Saint-Saens, Debussy of course, some Franck, Berlioz. I know pretty much nothing about all of them, except that a lot of 19th c French ballet music (excepting the above) puts me to sleep.


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## mbhaub

All of the above. But check out Charles Tournemire who wrote several very romantic symphonies, besides a lot of organ music. Charles Marie Widor, best known for the series of organ symphonies, wrote a considerable amount of orchestral and chamber music very romantic in spirit and well worth hearing. Then Florent Schmitt: more Debussy/Ravel than romantic, but what wonderful music.


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## starthrower

Chausson, who is not completely unknown but not famous like Berlioz. And Faure who is mostly known for one piece, his requiem. There is also Paul Dukas, and Poulenc who is not really a romantic but his music can be quite romantic.


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## JAS

starthrower said:


> Chausson, who is not completely unknown but not famous like Berlioz. And Faure who is mostly known for one piece, his requiem. There is also Paul Dukas, and Poulenc who is not really a romantic but his music can be quite romantic.


Chausson's symphony is one of my favorites.


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## CnC Bartok

Alberic Magnard is a God! Two of the greatest Symphonies penned by a Frenchman should be enough to give him that status! For me, No.4 is supreme, and yes I am aware of the history of The French Symphony.....

I tend to ignore the "French Bruckner" epithet, true the slow movement of the Third has a touch of the Antons, but he is closer to the more obvious models, Franck, his chum d'Indy, and debatably Robert Schumann.


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## Durendal

While not unheralded, since they were very popular in their time, I nominate 3 French romantic composers who have fallen into relative obscurity: Daniel Auber, Ambroise Thomas, and Adolphe Adam. While they were all chiefly opera composers, the orchestral overtures from those stage works are consistently delightful.


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## Durendal

While not unheralded, since they were very popular in their time, I nominate 3 French romantic composers who have fallen into relative obscurity: Daniel Auber, Ambroise Thomas, and Adolphe Adam. While they were all chiefly opera composers, the orchestral overtures from those stage works are consistently delightful.


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## JAS

Durendal said:


> While not unheralded, since they were very popular in their time, I nominate 3 French romantic composers who have fallen into relative obscurity: Daniel Auber, Ambroise Thomas, and Adolphe Adam. While they were all chiefly opera composers, the orchestral overtures from those stage works are consistently delightful.


I had no idea that Adam had written any operas, and now see that he wrote a considerable number. His ballet Giselle is still in the repertoire, can the same be said of any of his operas?


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## Durendal

JAS said:


> I had no idea that Adam had written any operas, and now see that he wrote a considerable number. His ballet Giselle is still in the repertoire, can the same be said of any of his operas?


I don't believe any of them are, no.


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## JAS

They have probably languished along with opera comique in general. I see a newish release (at least on CD) of his overtures by Richard Bonynge, who I find is usually quite reliable in this kind of music.


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## Josquin13

The symphonic & orchestral works of Albert Roussel, Joseph-Guy Marie Ropartz, Gabriel Pierne, and Charles Koechlin are worth exploring, in addition to the symphonies of Alberic Magnard, which CnCB has already mentioned. Granted, each of these composers lived and worked well into the 20th Century, nevertheless, I'd consider their music to be more of the late 19th century (or early 20th). Charles Gounod wrote two symphonies that might interest you, as well. I'm assuming that you already know the orchestral works of Ernest Chausson, Camille Saint-Saens, & Cesar Franck? If not, Chausson's Wagnerian influenced Symphony in B-flat is worth hearing, as is Franck's "Psyche" orchestral music and Symphony in D minor, along with the 5 Symphonies of Saint-Saens, including his best known 3rd "Organ" Symphony. Otherwise, Emmanuel Chabrier and Darius Milhaud might be of interest.

1. Albert Roussel, 4 Symphonies:

--Symphony no. 1, "Le poéme de la foret": 



--Symphony no. 2: 



--Symphony no. 3: 



--Symphony no. 4: 



--Bacchus et Arianne: 



--Evocations, Op. 15: 



--Pour un fete de printemps: 



--Suite for orchestra in F major: 




2. Joseph-Guy Marie Ropartz, 5 Symphonies:

--Symphony no. 1 "Sur un choral Breton": 



--Symphony no. 2: 



--Symphony no. 3: 








--Symphony no. 4: 



--Symphony no. 5: 



--La Cloche des morts: 



--Oedipe a Colonne: 



--La chasse du Prince Arthur: 




3. Charles Koechlin:

--The Seven Stars' Symphony: 








--Le Livre de la Jungle (based on Rudyard Kipling's The Jungle Book): 



--Les Heures persanes, or The Persian Hours (orchestral version):












--Symphony no. 1: 



--Symphony no. 2--speaking of 'unheralded', Koechlin's 2nd Symphony has never even received a premiere recording!, which is shameful (nor has his 1st). For me, Koechlin's 2nd is a kind of masterpiece (though it is actually his 4th Symphony). It's a powerful, harrowing work that reflects the WW2 era in which it was written. Though it is unquestionably a 'romantic' symphony. Here is a BBC radio broadcast, played by the London Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Constantin Silvestri: 



--Au Loin (this is one of my favorite works by Koechlin): 



--Le Buisson Ardent (another favorite Koechlin work of mine): 



--Paysages et Marines (chamber version--Koechlin's 1949 orchestration or chamber arrangement of his 1917 solo piano work gets my vote for the single most underrated French work of the 'impressionist' period. Listening to this music again, it's not hard to understand why Debussy asked Koechlin to orchestrate his ballet, Khamma, nor why Faure asked him to orchestrate his Pelleas et Melisande): 



. Koechlin was a brilliant orchestrator! Though admittedly, his music may be more of an acquired taste for some listeners.

4. Gabriel Pierne:

--L'an mil, a symphonic poem in three parts for mixed chorus & orchestra: 



--Les Cathedrales: 



--Paysages franciscains: 



--Fantaisie Basque: 



--Izeÿl--Suite from the incidental music: 



--Cydalise et le Chèvre-pied--Suites from his ballet (this ballet is some of Pierne's finest music, IMO):








https://www.amazon.com/Pierne-Cydal...e+cydalise+mari&qid=1595992173&s=music&sr=1-2
https://www.amazon.com/Pierné-Cydal...pierne+cydalise&qid=1595992215&s=music&sr=1-1

5. Louis Théodore Gouvy:

--Symphony no. 1: not on you tube.
--Symphony no. 2: 



--Symphony no. 3: 



--Symhony no. 4: 



--Symphony no. 5: 



--Symphony no. 6: 



--Paraphrases symphoniques: 




6. Camille Saint-Saens--5 Symphonies:

--Symphony in A major: 




--Symphony in F Major "Urbs Rome": 




--Symphony no. 1: 



--Symphony no. 2: 



--Symphony no. 3 "Organ":
Munch: 



Martinon: 



Dutoit: 



--Danse macabre: 
Stokowski: 



Dutoit: 



--Phaeton:








--Le rouet d'Omphale:








--La Jeunesse d'Hercule: 



--The Carnival of the Animals: 




7. Charles Gounod, Symphony nos. 1 & 2:

--Symphony no. 1: 



--Symphony no. 2: 




8. Cesar Franck:

--Psyché (both Paul Strauss and Jean Fournet have made excellent recordings of this music):
Strauss, Orchestre de Liège (complete): 



Fournet, Czech Philharmonic: 



Fournet, Netherlands Radio Philharmonic: 



Fournet, Prague Symphony Orchestra: 



https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8028286--jean-fournet-in-prague
--Le Chasseur Maudit: 



--Symphony in D minor: 
Monteux: 



Cluytens: 




9. Ernest Chausson:

--Symphony in B flat major (the Munch, Fournet, & Jordan recordings are all excellent):
Munch: 



Fournet: 



Jordan:












--Viviane: 



--Poéme de l'amour et de la mer: 

















10. Emmanuel Chabrier:

--España: 



--Joyeuse marche: 



--Suite pastorale (arranged from his Pieces pittoresques for solo piano): 



--Menuet pompeux (arranged by Ravel from Pieces pittoresques): 




11. Darius Milhaud--while Milhaud is more of a 20th century French composer, his early roots are in romanticism & impressionism; though his later music does become more modern sounding. Generally, I prefer Milhaud's chamber music (& 6 chamber or "Little" symphonies) to his 12 Symphonies, but others may disagree?

Symphonies 1-12: 




As mentioned, Milhaud also composed 6 "Little" Symphonies or Chamber Symphonies (all with titles): Here's the Chamber Symphony No. 1 "Le Printemps": 



, conducted by Milhaud.

--If you're wondering where to go from here, conductor Serge Baudo's box set of the 5 Symphonies by the French born & influenced Swiss composer, Arthur Honegger might be of interest, too, considering that Honegger was a member of "Les Six" and spent a large part of his life in Paris: 



.

Obviously, I consider the later period of French Romanticism & "Impressionism" & early modernism--centered around Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, Satie, & the composers of the Ballets Russes--to be more interesting than the earlier period. I hope you will make some valuable new discoveries.


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## Josquin13

One French composer that I forgot to mention in my above post is Philippe Gaubert, who was a flutist, conductor, & composer. Until recent years, Gaubert was mostly known as a composer of many remarkable works for the flute (& piano), however, the Timpani label has issued his orchestral music on several CDs, along with his chamber music. Gaubert may not be a top tier composer, but his music is well crafted and I enjoy it:

Les chants de la mer: 



Symphonie: 



Concert in F Major: 



Au Pays Basque: 



Le Cortege d'Amphitrite:


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## Bulldog

starthrower said:


> Chausson, who is not completely unknown but not famous like Berlioz. And Faure who is mostly known for one piece, his requiem.


Perhaps not. Faure's song "Après un rêve, Op. 7 no 1" has three times as many recordings as the Requiem, and the Pavane is close to the referenced song. Also, there's the chamber music where a few works have dozens of recordings.


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## starthrower

I am waiting on a CD of Faure's piano quintets.


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## Itullian

starthrower said:


> I am waiting on a CD of Faure's piano quintets.


Faure's music is all superb.


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## Colin M

I love this thread and the question posed about the French influence on ideas of Romanticism and by counter point Nationalism and Folk Music. I was blessed to minor in Art History in college where I learned music and words and the visual seemed to be one and the same for a time in the nineteenth century. I now realize these changing winds were just in the majority at the time and remain with us now. But that there were other composers who I dearly love like Sibelius pushing a more social agenda at times. And Smetana. And many more... music outlives it’s current history just like all great art and that is what makes this world so very special... signed a DSCH disciple : )


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## Roger Knox

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## Roger Knox

Josquin13 said:


> Obviously, I consider the later period of French Romanticism & "Impressionism" & early modernism--centered around Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, Satie, & the composers of the Ballets Russes--to be more interesting than the earlier period.


I do too. I've decided to start around 1850, that is with composers born 1825-1849. Unlike the Neglected German and Austrian Orchestral Composers thread, my intention is to be much flexible in encouraging posts of all kinds (well, almost). As before: symphonies and concertos, French but not Belgian composers -- that's it for delimitation. To begin with, in the symphony & concerto realms it seems to me that *Camille Saint-Saens (1835-1921)* is the most prominent composer, no longer unheralded or known mainly for the _Carnival of the Animals_ and _Danse macabre_. At least in recordings, I am surprised at the large number of versions of many symphonic and concertante works. Interest in his 2nd and 5th piano concertos faded for a time, but they have returned. The "Romantic Revival" has helped Saint-Saens, but it's the music's quality that sustains interest in this master. Since he's not unheralded I'm not going to post on Saint-Saens, but welcome others' comments. As for others, several French composers in this era have small orchestral or concertante outputs, especially compared to German and Austrian composers of the period. Are they unheralded, unproductive, short-lived, interested in other genres (e.g. opera), or just not that good? We'll consider several examples.


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## RICK RIEKERT

Unheralded and certainly worthy of attention is Jean Roger-Ducasse. Roger-Ducasse succeeded his friend Fauré as professor of composition, and after the death of Paul Dukas he took over his position as professor of orchestration. In addition to being a composer of very fine vocal and orchestral compositions, Ducasse also wrote some superb chamber music including two splendid string quartets, the Sonata for violin and piano Op. 24, and fascinating and highly virtuosic piano music. The sumptuous Symphonic Poem called _Sarabande_ for chorus and orchestra makes a good introduction to Roger-Ducasse.


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## Roger Knox

RICK RIEKERT said:


> Unheralded and certainly worthy of attention is Jean Roger-Ducasse.


Thanks for drawing my attention to *Jean Roger-Ducasse (1873-1954)*. We'll get back to him soon!


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## Roger Knox

Colin M said:


> I love this thread and the question posed about the French influence on ideas of Romanticism and by counter point Nationalism and Folk Music. I was blessed to minor in Art History in college where I learned music and words and the visual seemed to be one and the same for a time in the nineteenth century. I now realize these changing winds were just in the majority at the time and remain with us now. But that there were other composers who I dearly love like Sibelius pushing a more social agenda at times. And Smetana. And many more... music outlives it's current history just like all great art and that is what makes this world so very special... signed a DSCH disciple : )


Colin M., Although this thread is organized around specific composers and works I welcome your drawing attention to the broader context. Here is one specific point: after the French Revolution in 1789 opportunities for musicians who had worked in church- or court-supported environments were greatly diminished. The effect on composers was also serious -- how would they find the life stability to take on major composition projects, or have careers at all? It took a long time in France to arrive at viable alternatives. Can anyone relate this situation to specific composers? I can mention one -- *Georges Bizet (1837-1875)* died young and overwork was a factor.


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## Roger Knox

Two lesser-known pieces by Bizet are _Symphony No. 2: Roma_ (1860-71) and the _Patrie Overture, op. 19_ (1873). I think Bizet suffered from composer anxiety, maybe because even his best works were panned by critics. In any case he never published or promoted his now well-known Symphony No. 1, fearing it would be seen as too close to Gounod's pair. And Symphony No. 2 went through several revisions over 11 years; in revival it ended up being called a "suite" for a time. To me it's a _symphony!_ with four balancing movements. The first opens unusually, with a horn quartet suggesting the hunt. There is a fine buildup to the exiting allegro's stormy entrance, while towards the close there is no allegro recapitulation but the horns return with interpolations suggesting a storm's departure. Everyone admires the following scherzo, which stylistically reminds me of Bizet's earlier symphony. The slow movement has been unjustly maligned as "boring;" its conventionality does not rule out some interesting harmonic twists, and the closing interaction of flute bird calls and pizzicato strings is charming. A virtuosic tarantella serves as finale; note the contrapuntal ingenuity at times and the theatrical ending, not a surprise for the opera composer Bizet. Definitely an underrated work IMO, and I'd like to hear how Riccardo Muti and the Chicago Symphony played it not too long ago.


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## Roger Knox

As for Bizet's overture _Patrie_ (1873), it has a number of clever touches that suggest to me that it should not be judged an expression of jingoistic nationalism. Throughout the piccolo is the bearer of humourous asides. As things develop, chromatic side-slips where the music slides into a key one half-step away from the expected one occur. Rather than come to a cadence, there are a number of phrases that just fade out or are cut off abruptly. More seriously, the rather trite second theme sets up the middle section in the character of a funeral march whose pathos is genuine and even anguished, likely in reference to battle losses in the Franco-Prussian War that had concluded recently.


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## Guest

Bulldog said:


> Perhaps not. Faure's song "Après un rêve, Op. 7 no 1" has three times as many recordings as the Requiem, and the Pavane is close to the referenced song. Also, there's the chamber music where a few works have dozens of recordings.


And in the UK, many of a certain age will know the Berceuse from Dolly Suite long before they know the Requiem.






Millions of children across the UK would have listened to this at home or at school, and fondly remembered the closing theme.


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## Superflumina

Roussel is a great orchestral composer. Magnard has also been mentioned, his 3rd symphony is really good, haven't heard the others yet.


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## Roger Knox

Superflumina said:


> Roussel is a great orchestral composer. Magnard has also been mentioned, his 3rd symphony is really good, haven't heard the others yet.


Magnard's 4th symphony is also a favourite of many. In fact I think all of his symphonies are really good, and he was unheralded, perhaps still is in some circles. As for Roussel, I'm not ready to respond yet.


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## Roger Knox

MarkW said:


> I can only tell you what I have liked, without any of the info you want:
> 
> Delibes, Lalo, Magnard, some Saint-Saens, Debussy of course, some Franck, Berlioz. I know pretty much nothing about all of them, except that a lot of 19th c French ballet music (excepting the above) puts me to sleep.


Which Saint-Saens or Magnard do you like best?


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## Roger Knox

Another Bizet work I think is worth hearing (written when he was seventeen!): The Overture in A -/+ (1855). Any thoughts?

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=bizet+overture+in+a+


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## Roger Knox

Durendal said:


> While not unheralded, since they were very popular in their time, I nominate 3 French romantic composers who have fallen into relative obscurity: Daniel Auber, Ambroise Thomas, and Adolphe Adam. While they were all chiefly opera composers, the orchestral overtures from those stage works are consistently delightful.


Durendal, amending what I wrote in post #19, the chronological thread described there will continue AND ALSO posts concerning other periods in the 19th century are welcome. Especially when they point up important connections. For example, the opera overtures by Auber, Adam, and Thomas remind us that the Paris Opera was the leader in the development of the orchestra back then, adding new instruments, techniques, and effects that increased dramatic effectiveness. Berlioz as a critic spent a lot of time at the opera and it influenced his own original orchestral advances; his treatise on the subject was influential all over Europe. Later Paris Opera composers were also terrific orchestrators, eg. Bizet, Massenet.

As for those early 19th century composers now, which of their opera overtures do you find exceptionally appealing?


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## Roger Knox

There is a recording with the lesser-known Bizet orchestral works mentioned above. It received excellent reviews, a number of which deplored their neglect:

_Roma_. Ireland RTÉ National Symphony/Jean-Luc Tinguad. Naxos, 2015

_Symphony no. 2: Roma_, the _Patrie_ overture, and the Overture in A Minor; as well as the seldom-heard _March funèbre_, plus _Petite Suite_ with Les Quatre Coins (Bizet orchestrations of numbers from his _Jeux d'enfants_ piano suite).


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## Roger Knox

*Georges Bizet*, whose dates should have been given in post #22 as *1838-75*, had two outstanding contemporaries whose first priority likewise was composing for the stage. *Leo Delibes (1836-91*) wrote no concert orchestral music. But the prolific *Jules Massenet (1842-1912)* composed overtures, concert suites for orchestra (in addition to suites derived from stage works), and a symphonic poem. The latter, _Visions_ (1891), is certainly unheralded; during Massenet's lifetime it remained in manuscript form. There is just one version on YT; fortunately a better recording exists now, by the Royal Scottish National Orchestra/Jean-Luc Tingaud (Naxos, 2020). I recommend checking out this five-section work! After a lovely, mysterious opening that recurs with a wordless soprano vocal part at the close, there is an exciting, brilliantly orchestrated allegro, followed by the slow central section - an attractive violin solo with harp accompaniment (reminiscent of the Meditation from Massenet's _Thäis_.) The allegro returns in modified form, followed by a calm ending. For my taste there is too much repetition in the allegro; nevertheless, Massenet's trademark dramatic intensity and pacing are still there. The recording also includes two excellent Massenet overtures: _Phèdre_ (1873) and _Brumaire_ (1899). More to come on the composer's concert suites for orchestra …


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## Roger Knox

Much as I enjoy Massenet's concert suites for orchestra, they seem easier to listen to than write about. These seven compositions, originally for concert performance unlike the many orchestral suites he derived from his stage works, were written over a 15-year span from No. 1 (1867) to No. 7 (1882). Let's just say I recommend that, rather than be distracted by the many quibbles some have about his works and his stature as a composer, just get on and listen to them. I, like many, happen to like especially Nos. 4-7, which is not a criticism of Nos. 1-3 -- they're all worth hearing. Based on number of recordings No. 4, Picturesque Scenes, and No. 7, Alsatian Scenes, are the most popular. So I'm going to focus on the less heralded No. 5, Neapolitan Scenes, and No. 6, Fairy Scenes. To be continued ...


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## Roger Knox

Continuing from yesterday's post, Massenet's orchestral suites each are subtitled with a scene type implying an imaginary opera, ballet, or play. In _No. 6 - Fairy Scenes_ (1881) the stage "fairies," are of course larger than life, the complete orchestra being deployed to full effect with emphasis on piccolos in the opening Cortège. But this march's harmonies deliberately go off-kilter with brief out-of-key triads, perhaps reminding us that this is fairyland not reality. The following Ballet suggests a fast, leaping dance with modal scales that provide an Eastern flavor. Next is the ethereal Apparition, a slow, mysterious waltz featuring the arch-Romantic clarinet and horn. The final Bacchanal is energetic and heavily accented with a wild ending.

In _No. 5 - Neapolitan Scenes_ (1876) we have the most exciting suite of all, opening with La Danse, a high-energy tarantella at a terrific tempo that is a real technical workout for the violins. La Procession begins in church with bells and a high-pitched chorale. Then the scene shifts outdoors with a Neapolitan-style song (or aria?) plus variations. Finally, La Fête is a virtuoso stringfest with detached violins in perpetual motion, closing in a triumphal extended coda.

The suites have been championed and recorded by Bonynge and Gardiner; there is a fine set by the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra/Jean-Yves Ossonce on Naxos. Returning to my previous post's opening, what makes them hard to write about is that I cannot capture their particular flavours in description. Words such as "fluent," "delicate," "energetic," even "in-the-moment" come to mind. And listening with a theatrical imagination helps!


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## Roger Knox

Massenet’s two compositions for soloist and orchestra date from 1897. The Fantasy for Cello and Orchestra is in several sections including a slow quasi cadenza interlude. It is well written for both cello and orchestra and will be interesting for fans of 19th-century concertante string music. But I feel some of its thematic ideas are not particularly inspired. Concerning Massenet’s Concerto for Piano and Orchestra in E-Flat Major, the composer was an excellent pianist and there are many fine bravura effects such as the opening piano flourishes. The second movement has an appealing melody, while the finale – Slovakian Airs – has incredibly fast, light triplet figuration (on YT listen to Sondra Bianca’s utterly controlled playing of this series of passages!). Available recordings include: Fantasy – Truls Mørk, cello with the Orchestre de la Suisse Romande/Neeme Järvi on Chandos; Concerto – Steven Coombs, piano with the BBC Scottish Symphony/Jean-Yves Ossonce on Hyperion (The Romantic Piano Concerto, Volume 15) .


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## MusicSybarite

I have *Théodore Dubois (1837-1924)* in high esteem. His style is a bit similar to that of Saint-Saëns. He wrote two superb piano concertos, a violin concerto, three symphonies (two of them have been recorded already), chamber music, choral music, etc.

A work I often listen to lift my spirit is his _*Fantaisie Triomphale*_ for organ and orchestra (trumpets and timpani have more prominence regarding the orchestra, actually, and bells in the ending). As its title indicates, it's a celebratory, joyous, memorable, easy-going, straightforward and life-affirming work. It's not a "deep" work, but it is absolutely glorious. The recording below is the only one I know and it's fabulous:


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## Roger Knox

Thanks for your post! We must have a meeting of minds because I was just coming to both Theodore Dubois and organ & orchestra (Guilmant and Widor). Except for organists, Dubois is definitely an unheralded composer.


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## Roger Knox

Here are the rest of the composers born 1825-49 on my list. I won't come even close to discussing every composition, so please post your information and comments on any of these names including particular works -- plus any other composers you think should be here:

*Ernest Guiraud - 1837-1892
Alexandre Guilmant - 1837-1911
Emmanuel Chabrier - 1841-1894
Charles Widor - 1844-1937
Gabriel Fauré - 1845-1924
Marie Jaëll - 1846-1925
Augusta Holmès - 1847-1903
Henri Duparc - 1848-1933
Benjamin Godard - 1849-1895*


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## Durendal

Roger Knox said:


> Durendal, amending what I wrote in post #19, the chronological thread described there will continue AND ALSO posts concerning other periods in the 19th century are welcome. Especially when they point up important connections. For example, the opera overtures by Auber, Adam, and Thomas remind us that the Paris Opera was the leader in the development of the orchestra back then, adding new instruments, techniques, and effects that increased dramatic effectiveness. Berlioz as a critic spent a lot of time at the opera and it influenced his own original orchestral advances; his treatise on the subject was influential all over Europe. Later Paris Opera composers were also terrific orchestrators, eg. Bizet, Massenet.
> 
> As for those early 19th century composers now, which of their opera overtures do you find exceptionally appealing?


It's been many years since I listened to any of them, but off the top of my head my favourites at the time were:

Auber: La Muette De Portici
Adam: Si Jetais Roi
Thomas: Hamlet

I'll have to revisit the rest soon - problem is that there's too much music to listen to!


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## Roger Knox

Durendal said:


> It's been many years since I listened to any of them, but off the top of my head my favourites at the time were:
> 
> Auber: La Muette De Portici
> Adam: Si Jetais Roi
> Thomas: Hamlet
> 
> I'll have to revisit the rest soon - problem is that there's too much music to listen to!


Thanks for writing. We don't expect to cover more than a small amount of the music available. All of the overtures you listed are new to me at least and I'm interested to know what you think of any of them!


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## Roger Knox

MusicSybarite said:


> I have *Théodore Dubois (1837-1924)* in high esteem. His style is a bit similar to that of Saint-Saëns. He wrote two superb piano concertos, a violin concerto, three symphonies (two of them have been recorded already), chamber music, choral music, etc.


*Music Sybarite:* The BruZane organization promotes French 19th century music and Théodore Dubois is one composer they have championed. Of his concertos that you have mentioned, I've listened to No. 1: _Concerto-Capriccio for Piano_ in C minor (1876), No. 2: _Piano Concerto in F minor_ (1897), and the Violin Concerto (1897?); in addition to _Fantaisie triomphale_ for organ and orchestra, concertante works for harp/orchestra and cello/orchestra. Of all these I find _Piano Concerto no. 2 in F minor_ particularly good (Hyperion Romantic Piano Series Vol 60; Cédric Tiberghien/BBC Scottish Symphony). Dubois was a virtuoso organist and pianist; the work is idiomatic in the French style with fluent passagework and chords, often with staccato articulation, and as you mention there are stylistic similarities to Saint-Saëns. The first movement is exciting with attractive lyrical passages and interaction between piano and orchestra, and the slow movement's melody and atmosphere with the piano answering woodwind "bird-calls" is attractive. A scherzo in near perpetual motion leads through a cadenza into the finale, where the opening movement theme returns and receives fugal treatment.

Known for expertise in theoretical subjects Dubois seldom makes a false move, but his style remains conservative for his time. In addition to the three symphonies you mention, his _Ouverture de Frithiof_ (1880) is very good and a surprising venture into Wagnerian style, while his symphonic suite _Adonis_ (1901) is disappointing. Unwisely, Dubois blocked Ravel from receiving the Prix de Rome, and eventually the scandal cost him his position of director of the Paris Conservatory plus arguably his posthumous reputation -- but I don't think that should stop us now from listening to his own works!


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## Roger Knox

MusicSybarite said:


> A work I often listen to lift my spirit is [Théodore Dubois's]_ *Fantaisie Triomphale*_ for organ and orchestra (trumpets and timpani have more prominence regarding the orchestra, actually, and bells in the ending). As its title indicates, it's a celebratory, joyous, memorable, easy-going, straightforward and life-affirming work. It's not a "deep" work, but it is absolutely glorious. The recording below is the only one I know and it's fabulous:


Right now ways to lift our spirits are much needed and the concertante work _Fantaisie trionfale_ fits the bill! Born in the same year as Théodore Dubois, *Alexandre Guilmant (1837-1911)* composed works for organ and orchestra that do likewise, even more so. But first a little background. Fantastic advances in the organ developed by master builder Aristide Cavaillé-Coll (1811-1899) led to an organ comparable to an orchestra, with comparable ranges in pitch, dynamics, and families of instruments. Thus the idea of a work for organ alone that would be the equivalent of a symphony for orchestra came about -- the Organ Symphony. But it didn't stop there: for example, among *Charles Widor's* ten organ symphonies, No. 3 is actually for organ and symphony orchestra. That is the type also composed by Alexandre Guilmant: _Symphony No. 1 for Organ and Orchestra_, op. 42 (1894); _Symphony No. 2 for Organ and Orchestra_, op. 91 (1906); there is also the concertante _Allegro for Organ and Orchestra_, op. 81 (1894). I think of these works -- most uncritically -- as great big bundles of joy!


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## Roger Knox

With the organ plus orchestra, there are two large musical entities to be deployed where normally one or the other would be ample. *Alexandre Guilmant's* Symphony No.2 for Organ and Orchestra in A Major is an example. In the first movement, allegro section, there is much polyphonic writing with lively intermeshing lines often in close imitation (stretto), while piled-up textures are avoided. There are passages of dialogue between organ and orchestra. When both are sounding together there may be contrasted material, for example very active orchestral music while the organ has long sustained tones. From a diatonic basis, Guilmant likes to introduce a sudden chromatic shift that adds a fresh element. The slow movement features a plaintive, returning organ figure, and later a noble, expressive passage of great melodic beauty with delicate chromaticism in the violins. In the cheerful five-part scherzo the orchestra alternates with wind solos, while the homogenous second trio has effective chromatic brass writing. A solemn organ chorale leads into the finale, another contrapuntal organ-orchestral gem with characteristic Guilmant energy.

Discovering Guilmant's music for organ and orchestra has been the so far highlight of this thread for me, with its emotionally uplifting quality. Before moving on to Widor, I will just mention that the outstanding and popular _Symphony No. 3_ by *Camille Saint-Saëns* is not really an organ symphony, the organ appearing in only two of four sections. It was better described by the composer, as a symphony with organ. Still another organ-orchestra type is the concerto for organ and orchestra, such as the one by Guilmant's top student *Marcel Dupré (1886-1971)* that we will consider later on.


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## Roger Knox

*Charles Widor (1844-1937)* is sometimes an enigma to me, despite his amazing accomplishments as organist, composer, and teacher. It could be simply because I'm not an organist! In any case, our first task is to consider his music for organ and orchestra. To begin with there is an error in post #42: the Symphony No. 3 for Organ and Orchestra, op. 69, no. 3 (1894) does not belong to his series of ten Organ Symphonies. It is the Organ Symphony No. 3, op. 13, no. 3 (1872), a completely different work for organ alone, which belongs to that series. Both works are in E Minor, which adds to the confusion.

In all, Widor wrote four symphonies for organ and orchestra including the above-mentioned Symphony No. 3, op. 69:3. The others are:
o	Symphony for Organ and Orchestra, op. 42bis (1882) in G Minor
o	_Sinfonia sacra_, op. 81 (1908)
o	_Symphonie antique_, op. 83 (1911), which includes a final mixed chorus

Symphony No. 3 for Organ and Orchestra is in two long movements. The first, Adagio-Allegro-Andante, announces a recurring descending triad motto. There are Wagnerian arpeggiating strings. In the Allegro there is a slow plaintive organ melody that is repeatedly interrupted by curious, sharp interjections in the orchestra. As the music progresses, chromatic scale movement and dissonance are prominent and a tumultuous mood develops. The Andante close is in C Major - "the calm after the storm" - and C Major turns out to be a second key centre (the triad sharing two common tones [E and G] with the opening E Minor.) Analysts note a "double-tonic complex" in some late- and post-Romantic compositions that may apply to this work, although for me this gives it an unsettled feeling.

The second movement, Vivace, opens in E Minor with busy low register strings creating a chromatic "night mood." The orchestra builds thrillingly towards a bright organ entrance in C Major followed by dialogue between the two forces, with brass prominent. Towards the end material from the first movement including the opening motto returns. The work closes with a long-toned chorale-style melody transcending the frenetic orchestra. There is no program but I sense a struggle between darkness and light in this work. Is it compositional style that causes thickness of texture and lack of definition between organ and orchestra at times? Or is that due to the performance, or the recording? Anyway, there is another option available from organist Christian Schmitt with the Bamberg Symphony/Stephan Solyom (CPO, 2008) that is far better than either of the two versions I listened to on YT; perhaps repeated listening to that one will clear up this issue.


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## Chilham

Cécile Chaminade (1857-1944), was a French composer and pianist, the first female composer to be awarded the Légion d'Honneur. According to Ambroise Thomas, Chaminade was, "Not a woman who composes, but a composer who is a woman.

Edit: Not so much orchestral music, I guess.


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## Roger Knox

Chilham: Welcome, and thank you for your message! I like Cecile Chaminade's music and have listened to her Flute Concertino and Concertstuck for Piano and Orchestra online. She was a very fine composer and pianist. She wrote a symphony and two suites for orchestra that I haven't heard yet. Yes, the thread focuses on orchestra music (including concertos), but other comments such as yours about the composer and about recordings are welcome too -- anything from general to detailed. For example, as successful as she was, Chaminade still would have had as a woman additional difficulties in getting her music for orchestra recognized, or even played at all.


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## Roger Knox

Preceding Charles Widor's _Symphony No. 3 for Organ and Orchestra_ (1894) -- discussed in Post #44 -- are the _Symphony No. 1_, op. 16 in F Major (1870), and _Symphony No. 2_, op. 54 in A Major (1882), both for orchestra alone. I like both works: they are accessible, concise, bounding with energy and syncopated rhythm. My initial impression is that No. 2 is more advanced. For example, it includes the cyclic return in the finale of material from previous movements. Either symphony would grace an orchestral concert. They are well-represented on CD's from 2013 (No. 2) and 2015 (No. 1) by the Royal Scottish National Orchestra/Martin Yeats on the Dutton Epoch label. Widor's other major orchestral work is the symphonic poem _La nuit de Walpurgis_, op. 60 (1887). It exists in a version for mixed chorus and orchestra; the chorus is omitted in the version on the 2015 Dutton Epoch CD mentioned above. Yet another work inspired by Goethe's _Faust_, it is in three movements and symphonic in proportions. The appropriately wild and spectacularly-orchestrated Overture is full of hairpin crescendos and fearsome bird cries. The mood changes dramatically in the Adagio: Apparition of Helen and Faust, opening with soft strings and lyrical woodwind solos. As it becomes more passionate, in late romantic style, chromaticism becomes prominent creating a sense of unease. All of that is chased away in the final Bacchanale, a combination of dance and march. Another recommended work by Widor. We'll conclude with his concertos in the next post.


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## Roger Knox

Having listened to all of Widor's available concertos, my conclusion is that they are high-quality works whose appeal is obvious. They dovetail nicely with our earlier posts on Widor and also with the excellent Dutton Epoch recordings mentioned previously.

The first disc on that series, from 2011, includes the following works:
o	_Piano Concerto No. 1_, op. 39 in F minor (1876)
o	_Fantaisie for Piano and Orchestra_, op. 62 in A-flat major (1889)
o	_Piano Concerto No. 2_, op. 77 in C minor (1905)

All are conducted by Martin Yeats with the BBC Concert Orchestra this time; the pianist is Martin Roscoe. Widor's _Cello Concerto_, op. 41 played by Torleif Thedéen is on the second series disc (2013) along with the _Second Symphony_ discussed above. Martin Yates found and edited the _Violin Concerto_, op. 26 (1877) that is on the final disc of the series (2015), together with the _First Symphony_ and _La nuit de Walpurgis_. The violinist is Sergey Levitin.

At this point please post any comments you have on the recordings or compositions, or general thoughts on Widor and/or his contemporaries. I would really appreciate that!


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## Roger Knox

*Ernest Guiraud (1837-92)* was a well-known composer and innovative theory teacher from the highly-competitive late nineteenth-century Parisian music world who seems to have been overlooked. His two-movement _Caprice for Violin and Orchestra_ (1884) composed for Pablo Sarasate is particularly good, and well-played by Philippe Graffin with the Ulster Symphony/Thierry Fischer on Hyperion. Unfortunately, the recording is out of print, but specific tracks or the whole album can be special-ordered. Because it also includes Fauré's one-movement Violin Concerto along with other rarities from the era, checking it out could be worthwhile. As for the composer's _Suite for Orchestra No. 1_ (1871) and symphonic poem _La Chasse fantastique_ (1887), I would have to wait for better-quality playing and audio before coming to any conclusions.


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## Roger Knox

The well-known symphonic rhapsody _Espana_ (1883) by *Emmanuel Chabrier (1841-94)* was an immediate success, one of a number of works by French composers based on Spanish music that have had lasting appeal. As with Ernest Guiraud much of Chabrier's music is in his operas, and there are few compositions written originally for orchestra. _Lamento_, featuring the english horn, and the _Larghetto for Horn and Orchestra_ were both written in 1875; they are achingly beautiful and leave me wishing for more. There is a fine recording of the latter by Hermann Baumann, horn, with the Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra/Kurt Masur on Phillips Digital Classics.


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## Roger Knox

*Gabriel Fauré (1845-1924)* is neither unheralded, nor at the top of French orchestral composition -- an area in which he excelled mainly with one-movement concertante pieces. His most distinguished work composed originally for the orchestra is the well-known _Pavane_, op.50 (1887). To me it is a miracle of mood-setting, both solemn and graceful. Also first written for orchestra are two suites: the _Suite d'orchestre_ in F major, op. 20 (1865-74; sometimes called the Symphony in F major, and also existing in a later version for organ and strings), plus his late _Masques et Bergamasques_, op. 112 (1919). Both were intended to be in four movements. The former's finale is now missing, while its Gavotte reappears in the latter. They are attractive light works. Fauré's _Symphony_ in D minor he later destroyed. And there is now only the first movement of the composer's _Violin Concerto_ in D minor, op. 14 (1878-80); the second movement was performed but later lost, and there is no third. He struggled with large-form orchestral composition, whereas he wrote ten full-length chamber works of high quality.

Fauré's star has risen gradually, from acclaim in France to worldwide approval. I'm staggered by his number of competing recordings now! The three-volume set The Secret Fauré (Ivor Bolton/ Sinfonieorchester Basel, Sony Classical 2019) is a fine release, with the _Violin Concerto_ plus four concertante works on Disc 2: Orchestral and Concertante Works. It helps to have these concertante works on one excellent disc. The four are:

o	_Berceuse_ for Violin and Orchestra, op. 16 (1880)
o	_Ballade_ for Piano and Orchestra, op. 19 (1881)
o	_Romance_ for Violin and Orchestra in B-flat major, op. 28 (1882)
o	_Elegy_ for Cello and Orchestra in C minor, op. 24 (1883)

Also included on The Secret Fauré 2 are the _Pavane_, the first movement of _Suite d'orchestre_, and _Masques et Bergamasques_.

In addition Fauré composed a _Fantaisie_ for Flute and Orchestra in E minor, op. 79 (1898) that is much-loved by flutists, and the _Fantaisie_ for Piano and Orchestra, op. 111 (1919). The latter is a late work that I consider an acquired taste, but one that wears well and which I recommend highly. It is in three sections, each opening with a recurring melody. The piano writing is ornamental and subtly virtuosic. The advanced use of syncopation and the mixture of modal, tonal and chromatic harmony are typical of Fauré's later style. May I wish to anyone taking the Fauré journey: "Bon voyage!"


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## Roger Knox

*Errata:*

In Posts #47 and #48 I misspelled the name of *Charles Widor* conductor Martin Yates as Martin Yeats. Probably William Butler Yeats was at the back of my mind! Anyway Martin Yates will soon come up again as conductor of music by *Benjamin Godard*.


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## Roger Knox

The music of *Augusta Holmès (1847-1903)*, has come to prominence in recent years. Of Irish descent, she studied with Cesar Franck and broke a number of barriers affecting women composers. She demonstrated repeatedly that she could create large-scale works successfully, including the remarkable symphonic poems _Irlande_ (1882), _Andromède_ (1883), and _Pologne_ (1883). _Andromède_ (1883) opens with solemn, declamatory solo trombone passages; the succeeding allegro section shows her fluency with orchestration. Over the course of the work there is a high-register dance-like section emphasizing flutes and harp. Eventually violins and trumpets build to a climax and a grand, extended and very moving melody follows. The English horn and clarinet are deployed effectively. Holmès had a dramatic musical sensibility, creating vivid contrasts that anticipate the kind of music film composers wrote fifty years later.


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## Roger Knox

*Marie Jaëll (1846-1925)* is an impressive figure -- composer, pianist, pedagogue, and associate of leading composers and performers. I haven't had the opportunity to hear her orchestral songs and tone poem. That leaves her concertos. I especially like the Cello Concerto in F major (1882) for its pastoral character and instrumental attractiveness. Even the keys of the three movements - F major, D major, F major - have pastoral associations. It is a short soloist's concerto, at 16 minutes the length of a Konzertstücke or longer concertante work. The first movement begins with a pentatonic theme; later the cello moves into virtuoso territory with high-register broken triads, challenging double stops and octaves. There is a contrasting theme in C minor, changing rapturously to C major, returning to the home key and ending on a high pianissimo F. No suggestion of sonata form here!

The romantic slow movement opens with chords suggesting heartbeats. An attractive melody moves into siciliano rhythm. Orchestra chords are suggestive of the organ, after which there is a moving return to the opening key. In the finale the accented 6/8 metre suggests dancing, and there are rapid, upward scales to challenge the soloist. A slow section in Db major has a noble, pensive character. The suggestion of a brief cloudburst is quickly following by the bright opening music, a farewell cello cadenza, and the coda. There is a fine recording with Xavier Phillips, cello and the Brussels Philharmonic/Hervé Niquet, in the CD set _Jaëll: Musique symphonique & Musique pour piano (Portraits, Vol. 3)_.


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## Roger Knox

At the point we have partially completed discussion of Marie Jaëll and have only Henri Duparc (b. 1848) and Benjamin Godard (b. 1849) to consider, as unheralded French orchestral composers born between 1825-1849. Because of outside interfering events, this thread has gone much more slowly than anticipated. After Godard, and drawing a few conclusions, I will take a break.

There is a 12-year gap in births of significant French composers between Lalo (b. 1823) and Saint-Saëns (b.1835), with the exception of Delibes (b. 1829). This makes 1825-49 a lean quarter-century, while 1850-74 is richer. With Debussy (b. 1862) and Satie (b. 1866) we need to consider also the move toward modernism.


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## Roger Knox

There are also two piano concertos by *Marie Jaëll*: No. 1 in D minor (1877) and my preferred choice, No. 2 in C minor (1884). Born in Alsace, she had more exposure to German language and culture than did many other French musicians. She studied with Franz Liszt in Weimar and the influence shows in the C minor concerto's first movement: grand rhetoric for the piano, and between piano and orchestra, but also lovely and sensitive piano writing later on. From light virtuosity in the higher registers the movement develops through modulations and sequences. Thunderous octaves lead to the slow movement in E major, where a scale-wise three-note motive pervades. High-register piano trills and filigree over orchestral melody are attractive. Another transition leads to the finale in C major, which opens in 6/8 metre with allegro staccato chords followed by a martial theme in the orchestra. The virtuosic and idiomatic piano writing is handled well by Romain Descharmes, piano, with the Orchestre National de Lille/Joseph Swensen (on YT).


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## Roger Knox

*A few things to remember …*

1.	In "Unheralded French orchestral composers of the late romantic era" we are concerned only with orchestra music and concertos. I have listened to nearly all the music in those categories by the composers included in this thread. However, only selected works by them are discussed here.
2.	Any statement about a composer should be read with the understanding that many composers did their best work in other genres, including solo instrumental, chamber music, and vocal music.
3.	Especially important is the highly significant role of opera and other stage music, both for France during this era, and for the output of composers on this thread. Indeed, some knowledge of French romantic opera is often needed to interpret the musical styles of these composers.


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## Roger Knox

Roger Knox said:


> There is a 12-year gap in births of significant French composers between Lalo (b. 1823) and Saint-Saëns (b.1835), with the exception of Delibes (b. 1829).


*Correction:* The above from post #55 contains an error -- *Delibes*' dates are *1836-91*. So he is *not* an exception.


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## Roger Knox

*Henri Duparc (1848-1937)* had a long life but a much shorter career. He studied with Cesar Franck and did well in his twenties, but eventually he gave up composing because of a nervous disease. Later he destroyed all music that he had written after 1885 (age 37). His exciting but seldom-played symphonic poem _Lenore_ (1875) is based on a Gothic ballad by Gottfried August Bürger that is the basis for works by a number of other composers, including the Symphony No. 5 by Joachim Raff. It opens tentatively, featuring an ascending chromatic three-note motive. As the music progresses, yearning Wagnerian gestures appear in its continuous ascent. There follows the main fast section, with brass emphasized and back-and-forth motion between chromatic third-related chords (e.g. G Major-Eb major). This section, brilliantly orchestrated for strings, winds, and brass, represents the flight of Lenore and a daemon posing as her dead fiancé William on horseback. She dies after reaching William's grave site, and the opening music returns in a slow coda.

_Aux Étoiles_ (1874) is a beautifully serene piece that begins on a sustained C major triad over a dominant pedal. The registration and spacing of chords reminds me of Ravel. There are expressive solos for cello and violin leading to the high register. Clarinet and horn entrances are effective, as are following string and wind combinations. The piece is repetitive and like a lullaby, but in 4/4 metre rather than the more typical 3/4 of rocking cradle song. Both of these works are attractive but comparatively slight; it is in Duparc's _mélodies _that his greatness lies. A currently available recording including both is The Sorcerer's Apprentice: French Symphonic Poems, with the Orchestre du Capitole de Toulouse/Michel Plasson on Warner Classics (2006).


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## Roger Knox

It's a pleasure to end this group of French orchestral composers born 1825-49 with *Benjamin Godard (1849-95)*. Understanding this composer depends upon the genre. His Suite of Three Miniatures for Flute and Piano is popular, as were the many salon pieces for piano that he wrote early in his career. But his large-scale instrumental compositions leave a better impression of his true worth. My favourite among the symphonies that I've heard is Symphony No. 2, op. 57 (1879) in Bb Major. Its opening movement is inviting from the get-go and it sails along in an optimistic frame of mind. Godard's skill at modulation provides plenty of tonal variety, though. The second movement theme and variations and third movement scherzo and trio, both in minor-keys, are well done. The finale could have been trimmed somewhat, but it has a splendid close. Exceptionally good also is the recording by the Munich Radio Orchestra/David Reiland on CPO (2015). The work left me very surprised that I'd never heard it or even heard of it! Yet the same applies to the rest of Godard's orchestral music, which we'll consider next.


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## Roger Knox

*Benjamin Godard* sought to expand the scope of the symphony, with titles identifying the type of composition. The _Symphonie gothique_ (1874? pub. 1883) is "in the old style," a kind of work especially common in late nineteenth- and early-twentieth century Germany. Of its five movements the centerpiece third, Grave, became well-known on its own. It is reminiscent of a Baroque chorale prelude, while the others suggest numbers in a Baroque suite with some nineteenth-century modifications. Harmony is diatonic and Godard's skill in counterpoint is evident. All in all it is an attractive work, and is on the CPO recording mentioned in the previous thread. The _Symphonie orientale_ (1884) is also in five movements, each identified with a different country. I particularly like Les eléphants evoking a slow procession in India, and Chinoiserie displaying a dazzling array of sounds and orchestral effects. There is an excellent recording by the Royal Scottish National Orchestra/Martin Yates; Dutton (Epoch series), 2011.

It has been suggested that the _Symphonie gothique_ is really a suite, and the same could be claimed for the _Symphonie orientale_. (Indeed, its Marche turque reminds me in certain ways of Massenet's Cortège in the Suite No. 6: _Scènes de féerie_.) Nevertheless one must also acknowledge Godard's wider concept of the symphony, as evidenced in _Le Tasse: Symphonie dramatique_ for Soli, Chorus and Orchestra (1877, also actually Symphony No. 1); _Aurore: Symphonie descriptive_ for Voice and Orchestra (1881); and _Symphonie légendaire_ for 3 Vocal Soli, Female chorus and Orchestra (1886). Unfortunately I haven't been able to find recordings or uploads of any of the last three works.


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## mparta

Roger Knox said:


> The music of *Augusta Holmès (1847-1903)*, has come to prominence in recent years. Of Irish descent, she studied with Cesar Franck and broke a number of barriers affecting women composers. She demonstrated repeatedly that she could create large-scale works successfully, including the remarkable symphonic poems _Irlande_ (1882), _Andromède_ (1883), and _Pologne_ (1883). _Andromède_ (1883) opens with solemn, declamatory solo trombone passages; the succeeding allegro section shows her fluency with orchestration. Over the course of the work there is a high-register dance-like section emphasizing flutes and harp. Eventually violins and trumpets build to a climax and a grand, extended and very moving melody follows. The English horn and clarinet are deployed effectively. Holmès had a dramatic musical sensibility, creating vivid contrasts that anticipate the kind of music film composers wrote fifty years later.


I think she was a part of the complicated social circles associated with the Symbolists and Mallarme in particular, interesting conjunction given the late issue with Wagner in these poetry claques. Mallarme wrote on Wagner (in a fashion more interpretable than his poetry, lol). Modernism was actually heralded by the appearance (late, maybe 1885?) of Tannhauser, of all things, in Paris. Man, they didn't know what what was coming!


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## mparta

Roger Knox said:


> I do too. I've decided to start around 1850, that is with composers born 1825-1849. Unlike the Neglected German and Austrian Orchestral Composers thread, my intention is to be much flexible in encouraging posts of all kinds (well, almost). As before: symphonies and concertos, French but not Belgian composers -- that's it for delimitation. To begin with, in the symphony & concerto realms it seems to me that *Camille Saint-Saens (1835-1921)* is the most prominent composer, no longer unheralded or known mainly for the _Carnival of the Animals_ and _Danse macabre_. At least in recordings, I am surprised at the large number of versions of many symphonic and concertante works. Interest in his 2nd and 5th piano concertos faded for a time, but they have returned. The "Romantic Revival" has helped Saint-Saens, but it's the music's quality that sustains interest in this master. Since he's not unheralded I'm not going to post on Saint-Saens, but welcome others' comments. As for others, several French composers in this era have small orchestral or concertante outputs, especially compared to German and Austrian composers of the period. Are they unheralded, unproductive, short-lived, interested in other genres (e.g. opera), or just not that good? We'll consider several examples.


I still think Saint-Saens is still un- or underappreciated because (this is why I think this) I only recently came back to him with a prejudice born of critical dismissal. All of his music is well made and much of it spectacularly so. I continue to dig through it, i knew very little before i heard a SMASHING performance of the 5th concerto by Jean Yves Thibaudet, knocked me out of my seat (playing equally over the top, this pianist is superb). So I've listened anew to the symphonies, took my first dive into Samson et Dalila (Fourrestier with Jose Luccioni and Helene Bouvier, wonderful), have the new Timbre d'Argent sitting to be heard, and the great chamber music set from Hyperion. This composer deserves more because he gives more than we expect.

I have the Darre set of the piano concertos but have been thinking to also get the single disc Chamayou (great Liszt, seems to be a great player) and Kanotorow, who only won the Tchaikovsky competition, so he might have something to say 

please, more discussion, i missed so much by bypassing this!!


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## mparta

Does noone else think about Ropartz?
The Magnard symphonies are fine works, there is chamber music as well. It's often a little more dour and so takes a little more investment, but I like this music.
The Ropartz symphonies, quartets and other works, an opera, and more chamber music and orchestral works are available on generally very good recordings from Timpani, a label that has done wonders for French music performed mostly by French musicians. I've said elsewhere how much I appreciate this label, for these works as well as others (Jean Cras, Felicien David who merits mention in this thread, D'Indy, Hure, Hahn, Dukas, Godard, Ibert, Jadin, Le Flem-- not all 19th century symphonists but often un- or little known).

Dukas symphony is a masterpiece.


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## Roger Knox

mparta, This is great, the thread is not finished! Please continue to post, and generate interest and discussion if possible. You have a very good knowledge of recordings, which are not my strength. I'm taking a break from this particular thread for external reasons, but am glad to answer questions or offer suggestions.


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## Roger Knox

*Benjamin Godard's* works for piano and orchestra are among his best. They include two concertos and two concertante pieces. The Piano Concerto No. 1, op. 31 in A minor (1875) is written in the grand manor and I like especially the opening movement. Piano Concerto No. 2, op. 148 in G minor (1893, pub. 1899) is one of his best works overall. It is striking to note the distance between the first concerto composed at the age of 26 and this one written 18 years later. Every movement is distinctive and stylish; the finale opens with a series of arpeggios that have a slightly menacing flavor, followed by a section with a decidedly eastern touch. One question left aside in the literature is possible influence of Godard's Jewish roots on his music. At that time many European Jews had a broad interest in the lands and cultures of the east.

As for recordings there are two choices. On Hyperion the remarkable Howard Shelley is both soloist and conductor of the Tasmanian Symphony Orchestra on a disc of both concertos, as well as Godard's Introduction and Allegro, op. 49 for piano and orchestra (The Romantic Piano Concerto 63, 2014) . And then there are the world premiere (!) recordings by soloist Victor Sangiorgio with the Royal Scottish National Orchestra/Martin Yates on Dutton (Epoch). Concerto No. 1 is on the same 2011 disc as Godard's _Symphonie orientale_ reviewed previously. Concerto No. 2 is on a 2012 disc including also Godard's piano-orchestra _Fantaisie persane_, op. 152. Conductor Martin Yates was the moving force behind these recordings, whose success led to Dutton's Charles Widor recordings we've discussed earlier.

Of the two concertante works, the Introduction and Allegro in D minor (1880) is a striking piece in two sections. The Lento opens with a solemn passage in the strings that the piano takes up with harp-like rolled chords. In this section the piano writing has an improvisatory character. Then the Allegro is a lot of fun, described by a French commentator as a "Parisian polka" in a free rondo-like form, with a folk-like melody. After a cadenza the minor key changes to major and a cheerful closing. As for the _Fantaisie persane_ in G minor (1894), it opens with an eastern, evening atmosphere, the ornamented melody hovering over expectant dominant harmony. Later there is an allegro section with a steady beat and much high register elaboration in the piano, which rushes to the close in a flurry of rapid figuration. The _Fantaisie_ appears only on the Dutton recording. Both the Dutton and the Hyperion are excellent, but I have a slight preference for the Hyperion because of Howard Shelley's exceptionally confident and comfortable leadership.


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## Roger Knox

Trained as a violin virtuoso who studied at the Paris Conservatoire with Henri Vieuxtemps, *Benjamin Godard* was able to write soloist's violin concertos with the best of them. _Concerto Romantique_ (No. 1) for Violin and Orchestra, op. 35 in A minor (1887) is an exciting work that must be heard, and not only for the third movement Canzonetta that has often been performed on its own. Aaron Rosand set the standard for this work in his superb Vox recording with the Luxembourg Radio Orchestra/Louis de Froment. Both of Godard's violin concertos are virtuoso works with plenty of inventiveness, colour, and stylistic variety. The Concerto No. 2, op. 131 in G minor (1891) opens with a bang with a lightning-quick violin passage, and continues at high voltage until the yearning second theme enters. A sentiment-filled slow movement and rollicking finale follow. Violinist Chloë Hanslip with the Slovak State Philharmonic Orchestra/Kirk Trevor (Naxos, 2008) is excellent in both works. The recording also includes Godard's four attractive, peaceful _Scènes poétiques_ for orchestra, op. 46. Coming now to where our discussion began, with the composer's well-known flute and piano pieces, note that they also exist as the fine Suite for Flute and Orchestra, op. 116a (1889).


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## Roger Knox

*Conclusions About Composers Born 1825-1849:*
In view of this thread's title, and having listened to most of the composers' orchestral works (always including concertos and concertante pieces), here are my conclusions. "Unheralded" means "for orchestral music," and does not include the composer's other music.

Not unheralded, many compositions: *Saint-Saëns*
Not unheralded, few compositions: *Bizet, Fauré*
Unheralded, many compositions: *Dubois, Massenet, Widor, Godard*
Unheralded, few compositions: *Guilmant, Guiraud, Chabrier, Jaëll, Holmès, Duparc*
(*Holmès* has more compositions (e.g. symphonic poems), but recordings were not available.)

My personal favourites are: *Saint-Saëns, Bizet, Fauré, Massenet, Godard, and Guilmant.*

Thanks everyone for reading and participating! There is more on Talk Classical about most of these composers. In particular, thanks to JoachimRaff for the Composer Guestbooks.


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## Prodromides

Hi, Roger K.

In TC's 'poll' subforum, I entered Charles Tournemire's 6th symphony in Bulldog's selection thread on symphonies.

More contemporaneous with Koechlin & Florent Schmitt, Tournemire's harmonic vocabulary is aligned with the French romanticism from 1890s & early 1900s (FYI, if you are still interested  )


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## Roger Knox

Prodromides said:


> In TC's 'poll' subforum, I entered Charles Tournemire's 6th symphony in Bulldog's selection thread on symphonies. More contemporaneous with Koechlin & Florent Schmitt, Tournemire's harmonic vocabulary is aligned with the French romanticism from 1890s & early 1900s (FYI, if you are still interested  )


Thanks Prodromides. Yeah, I'm more than still interested, but life has intervened and I don't have time for listening right now. I was looking forward to continuing with French orchestral composers born 1850-74, and I've heard quite bit of Tournemire's (b.1870) fabulous organ music but not the orchestral. But please feel free to post on any work that is relevant (e.g. Tournemire 6), and from any perspective. It doesn't need to be at all like mine. I'd like to hear what you have to say.


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## Roger Knox

Having found some free time that I wasn't expecting, here we are again with the next section of Unheralded Romantic French Orchestral Composers -- those born 1850-1874. We have an exceptionally rich and productive generation to listen to! Once again: non-vocal orchestral music, including concertos and concertante works. Contributions are certainly welcome, including picking up on suggestions for composers made earlier in the thread.

It wasn't hard to decide that *Claude Debussy (1862-1918)* is not unheralded! Except for a few early works, he's not really a romantic composer either, although an important point is that neither Debussy or Ravel sprang out of nowhere. They drew on the French romantic tradition quite a lot.

I've already posted in the thread Vincent D'Indy Orchestra Works on these two outstanding compositions: Symphony on a French Mountain Air for Piano and Orchestra (_Symphonie cévenole_, op. 25; 1887) and Symphony No. 2 in Bb major (1904). From a number of previous posts it was clear that the first-mentioned is still D'Indy's most popular orchestral work. No. 2 is especially important in my view.

*Vincent D'Indy (1850-1931)* wrote two more symphonies. The _Symphonie italienne_ (1872; sometimes called No. 1), is an early work written before the composer developed a distinct profile. It is interesting to view it alongside Italy-themed works by two other winners of the prestigious, lucrative French Prix de Rome: *Jules Massenet* (Orchestra Suite No. 5: _Scènes napolitaines_, 1876), and *Gustave Charpentier* (_Impressions d'Italie_, 1890; to be discussed). D'Indy's Symphonie No. 3, op. 70 (_Sinfonia brevis de bello Gallico_, 1919) is a post-World War One work that is both a monument to the French soldiers killed in battle and a celebration of the war's end.


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## Roger Knox

Having listened to all of *Vincent D'Indy's* attractive symphonic poems my particular favourite is the four-part _Poème des rivages_ (Poem of the Shores; 1919-21.) Composed in the wake of the First World War and of his recent marriage and honeymoon, the work is not like the travel-based suites that were so common in the later nineteenth century. Rather, like a fine poem it has both a fascinating surface and deeper resonances, D'Indy having achieved a personal idiom into which are subsumed both Impressionist influences and his Franckist background. There are nods to Debussy's masterpiece _La Mer_, but _Poème des rivages_ has more sunshine and a variety of moods. Movement 1, _Calme et lumière. Agay (Méditerranée)_, conveys through very sophisticated rhythm, harmony and texture a sense of the seashore near Cannes, the strings suggesting rippling waves while long woodwind pedal tones have connotations of light and distance. The second movement,_ La joie du bleu profond. Miramar de Mallorca (Méditerranée)_, is brighter and becomes playful, with an insistent rising 5-note scale pattern and a gleaming trumpet solo. In Movement 3, _Horizon verts. Falconara (Adriaque)_, a train ride on Italy's Adriatic coast becomes the basis for a three-part movement, in the middle section of which the train comes to a halt and mystery emerges. The finale, _Le mystère de l'Océan. La Grande Côte (Golfe de Gascogne)_, cuts deeper, portraying with brilliant orchestration a threatening ocean storm and the ensuing calm.

Choosing between recordings by the Orchestre Philharmonique de Monte Carlo/George Prêtre and the Iceland Symphony Orchestra/Ruman Gamba (Chandos, 2011), the latter has the great advantage of being in print, while the former can still be heard on YouTube under the masterful baton of Prêtre.


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## Roger Knox

.....................................................................


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## Roger Knox

Among concertante pieces by *Vincent D'Indy* the _Choral varié_ (Chorale with Variations, 1904) stands out. The alto saxophone's pure, extended tones are well-suited to this spiritually-motivated piece. String, woodwind, and brass sections appears as choirs that interact with each other and with the soloist, creating intriguing moods that range from pensive to exuberant. D'Indy was a firm supporter of the saxophone and he later included a saxophone quartet in the score of _Poème des rivages_. A number of recordings are available currently, but it's hard to imagine one better than that on YT by saxophonist Johannes Ernst with the Berlin Radio Symphony Orchestra/Vladimir Jurowski; Arte Nova, 1999.


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## Roger Knox

Moving on, *André Messager (1853-1929)* was an important Paris conductor and composer of operettas. His unheralded Symphony in A (1875) is an attractive, tuneful composition that I think fans of Bizet's symphonies would enjoy. Utterly different is another unheralded composer, *Andre Gédalge (1856-1926)* who was a late bloomer in composition. He became known for his treatise on fugue that became the standard French textbook on the subject. Of his three symphonies I've only heard the Symphony No. 3 in F major (1908). I would recommend listening to the last movement, a lively romp featuring his skill in counterpoint. Unfortunately the only recording I've come across to date is a poor radio broadcast from the 1950's that can be found on YT.

*Gustave Charpentier (1860-1956)* is best known for the aria "Depuis le jour" from his successful opera _Louise_. Curiously, like Gédalge's Third Symphony, Charpentier's programme suite _Impressions d'Italie_ (1890) gets better as it goes on. The fourth movement "Sur les cimes" (On the tops [of mountains?]) and the fifth "Napoli" are the two movements I liked best; the latter is excellently orchestrated. Among several possibilities there is a well-reviewed recording, _Music for the Prix de Rome_, by the Brussels Philharmonic Orchestra/Hervé Niquet on Glossa (2011) from which I've heard tasters that sound promising.

P.S. To come: *Ernest Chausson* and *Cécile Chaminade*.


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## Roger Knox

For anyone who has recently joined TC or is new to this thread, the idea behind it is to check out the music of composers who have been overlooked or inadequately recognized, and to highlight the ones who seem most deserving. As a survey of composers it provides little on individual works or recordings, but is intended as an overview. For example, of the French orchestral composers born in the 1850's it seems that *D'Indy* and *Chausson* are particularly significant; neither of them have been overlooked but both are inadequately recognized in my opinion.

Please don't hesitate to contribute your replies, ideas, and opinions!


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## Roger Knox

Neither the_ Poème for Violin and Orchestra_ (1897) with 125 different recordings available, nor even the Symphony in Bb Major (1890) with 25, suggest *Ernest Chausson (1855-1899)* to be an unheralded composer. But the symphonic poems _Viviane_ (1882, rev. 1887) and _Soir de Fête_ (1898) are a different story and I will focus on them instead.

_Viviane_ is based on the famous Arthurian legend in which the magician Merlin is attracted to the beautiful enchantress. When he realizes Viviane is trying to bind him up a tremendous struggle follows and he is left tied to a pole. The atmospheric opening music captures the mystery of the forest of Brocéliande. The encounter between the two sorcerers is portrayed with exciting, imaginative music leading to the climactic triumph on a fortissimo Tristan chord (half-diminished seventh). A quiet coda indicates the changed reality. In this short, early work, characteristic of Chausson are the Romantic setting of mood and building of suspense through his mastery of melody, harmony, and orchestration, and the overall influence of Wagner. A student of Cesar Franck like Vincent D'Indy, Chausson differs from the latter in that he is more concerned with atmosphere, and less with structure and motivic technique. In post #12 of this thread, Josquin13 kindly suggested recordings of the Symphony and _Viviane_.


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## 89Koechel

Roger - Just wanted to say thanks, for your extensive knowledge of French composers, as you've shown, on this thread. Also, in your Dec. 5th post, you mentioned that the d'Indy 2nd Symphony is "especially important in my view". I agree about it's importance (and maybe it's neglect ... and the latter is a bit shameful), and am sure you know that Monteux, in his recording, is probably the BEST we'll ever know - eh?


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## Roger Knox

89Koechel said:


> Roger - Just wanted to say thanks ... and am sure you know that Monteux, in his recording, is probably the BEST we'll ever know - eh?


And thank you for your encouragement! I also would like to know more about the Monteux recording of D'Indy's Second Symphony, and maybe other readers would too. So if you have time, please let us know, and that holds true for other recordings as well. (My knowledge is more about composers and works than about recordings.) One thing I heard from a veteran orchestral musician about Monteux is that he was excellent at balancing an orchestra -- that's always true, but perhaps especially so with the big orchestras of late Romantic and impressionist music.


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## Roger Knox

The excellent symphonic poem _Soir de Fête_ (1898) shows that *Ernest Chausson (1855-1899)* had come a long way since his early _Viviane_. There is less Wagner influence in his harmony and phrasing. Chausson had helped support Debussy early in his career and they became friends, sharing musical insights. As Debussy had moved into impressionism it is interesting to compare his _Fêtes_, no. 2 of the three-movement _Nocturnes_ (1900-01) with _Soir de Fête_. There are some similarities in concept but Debussy's incisive harmonic language of triads, often parallel, open fifths, and modal scales as sources, differs from Chausson's style that is partially rooted in late romanticism.

The work is in three sections (fast-slow-fast); in the outer festive ones Chausson breaks up lines and uses subtle variants to avoid predictability. The slow section is wonderfully peaceful, with quiet passion that makes it the work's "key to the arch." Both Chausson symphonic poems deserve much more attention.


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## mparta

Roger Knox said:


> Thanks Prodromides. Yeah, I'm more than still interested, but life has intervened and I don't have time for listening right now. I was looking forward to continuing with French orchestral composers born 1850-74, and I've heard quite bit of Tournemire's (b.1870) fabulous organ music but not the orchestral. But please feel free to post on any work that is relevant (e.g. Tournemire 6), and from any perspective. It doesn't need to be at all like mine. I'd like to hear what you have to say.


There are a few recordings of Tournemire's symphonies, a set (not sure about completeness) from Moscow with Antonio de Almeida, then a couple of discs with symphonies 3-8. I have the most available one, which is of the 6th, and have listened and enjoyed but not closely enough to hold forth.

He wrote extensively for organ, and there's a fascinating series of recordings of L'Orgue Mystique, a huge set of pieces (14 discs?) which accompany the classical Roman liturgy. I'm particularly drawn to the versions (Sandro Mueller on Cybele) that have covers featuring the art by Eva Krause, but highly suggestive of Odilon Redon, a fascinating lithographer and "illustrator"--(I don't think he would like that) of classic 19th century symbolist works and poetry, Poe (they took him in as one of their own), Baudelaire, Mallarme, Flaubert (the Temptation of St. Anthony). So the interest in the music and the association with that thread of late 19th century decadent culture and literature seems to make for a heady mix, to say the least. The literary association with organ music and Catholicism and the French decadent movement has its pinnacle in A Rebours by Joris-Karl Huysmans. It is a nutty ride of a novel if ever there were one. And then on to Michel Houllebecq, whose central character in Soumission is a Huysmans scholar.

Waiting for the symphonies, when I listen, I'll mention.


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## Roger Knox

*Cécile Chaminade (1857-1944)* is as natural a musician as one could imagine. A child prodigy pianist, she came early to composition also. I've listened to both of the following works many times with pleasure. In the well-known Concertino for Flute and Orchestra, op. 107 (1902) I feel a sense of rightness in everything that happens: the irresistible opening theme; the way that despite its beauty it is continued and varied rather repeated unaltered; the introduction of brilliant flourishes that are aligned with blossoming harmony. As for the Concertstück for Piano and Orchestra (1908), the contrast between declamatory or dancelike eastern styles and western lyricism along with a rich variety of piano figuration make it a continuously engaging work. The piano sings and embellishes brightly. Like the Concertino, the Concertstück seems to be just the right length, no doubt due the composer's extensive performing experience was a contributing factor. A suitably brief cadenza and truncated last references to previous material bring the work to an effective close.

Although she is for me the most accomplished and successful of 19th-century French woman composers, some have characterized Chaminade as only a composer of salon music. As a woman in that era, she did not attain an institutional position that would have made her life more secure and supported her with the time to write music for large forces. Nevertheless, she made many successful tours; her solo piano music is often of high quality as well and was taken up by pianists all over the world.


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## Marsilius

Veering off, perhaps, on something of an overgrown track , we might mention *Théodore Lajarte (1826-1890)*. Mainly recalled today, if at all, as archivist of the Paris Opera, he was also a part-time composer, primarily for the theatre.

He is fortunate in that the great dancer Alexandra Danilova's only full-length ballet recording is of _Mademoiselle Fifi_ which was choreographed to his music. The slight tale of an ageing and somewhat rapacious soubrette who is wooed by both a father and his son, it is only 13 minutes long, rather amusing and quite charming. You can see it - and, in the process, hear Lajarte's music - here: 



 (it's a TV broadcast from the 1950s - recorded live, which accounts for the fact that a dancer falling over in the first few seconds couldn't be edited out!)


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## bavlf

A good overview in this box, for the orchestra:


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## mparta

Alright, finally ready to venture in a bit, not too far









He's my new thing. On the 7th symphony--This is very attractive music, a little of this (Stravinsky) a little of that (Roussel and Debussy) but with enough character to be its own piece.

I am struck by a couple of things. First, it is rhythmically very lively, enough to have pretentions to be a ballet score. Given that it's French, so far so good. But he was an organist, not the most dance-like of instruments.

Second, the colors are fantastic. I guess knowing how important organ registrations are made him as attentive to orchestration.

I think he was a student of Widor.

Finally, someone on one of these threads called this piece "turgid". It's not conceivable that we're hearing the same music. There is an alternative performance from Moscow and de Almeida, and I haven't heard it, but I don't think making it turgid is possible. Really don't understand that criticism. It is a little elusive in structure and I held out until I thought I had a little of it in hand, but going to take more effort. My point in general is that I think this is attractive and intriguing enough to put in some listening time.


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## Roger Knox

Thanks! I've just listened to movement 1 of *Charles Tournemire's* *(1870-1939)* Symphony No. 7 (1918), Danses des temps primitifs, and its very impressive, especially the fast part. It's not "angular" in rhythm like The Rite of Spring, more straight ahead, exciting! As for "turgid" I agree with you that it's not.


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## Roger Knox

mparta said:


> Alright, finally ready to venture in a bit, not too far. ... He's my new thing. On the 7th symphony--This is very attractive music, a little of this (Stravinsky) a little of that (Roussel and Debussy) but with enough character to be its own piece. ... I am struck by a couple of things. First, it is rhythmically very lively, enough to have pretentions to be a ballet score. Given that it's French, so far so good. But he was an organist, not the most dance-like of instruments. ... Second, the colors are fantastic. I guess knowing how important organ registrations are made him as attentive to orchestration. ... I think he was a student of Widor. ... It is a little elusive in structure and I held out until I thought I had a little of it in hand, but going to take more effort. My point in general is that I think this is attractive and intriguing enough to put in some listening time.


mparta, I've listened to the whole Tournemire 7th Symphony now and look forward to comparing notes with you. I agree with nearly all of your above comments. You mention ballet, to me this work also sounds like splendid film music -- the rhythm, the orchestration -- great for battles and outdoor scenes. Tournemire's ability at improvisation lets me imagine him as keyboardist for silent films! But he wouldn't have done that, and course none of this was to happen.


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## mparta

I still like this piece and am listening while I work but I do find the shape elusive, so I guess that means more listening --

There, that passage just now -- clearly Petrushka. Not a bad thing.


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## Roger Knox

mparta said:


> I still like this piece and am listening while I work but I do find the shape elusive, so I guess that means more listening --


Actually I'm finding that the way I appreciate it so far is movement-by-movement -- at an hour-and-a-half long with five movements of substantial length Tournemire Symphony No. 7 is long! At the moment I find the last movement, "Danses des temps futurs," mesmerizing.

Even people who think they don't like *Charles Tournemire's* music may agree: 
*Symphony no. 7, movement five.*


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## Roger Knox

Another criticism of Tournemire's symphonies I've read is that his music all sounds the same. Certainly not true for the Seventh Symphony! Evocations of geological time, nature, and tribal battle in the first two movements, modal folk-melody and dance in the third, modern large-scale war in the fourth, and the finale's bells of peace provide ample musical variety.

Unfortunately even his symphonies that were performed did not get the adequate attention that more editing and publication would have provided. They could have been less diffuse and possibly shorter. It is amazing that the ones like No. 7 that he never heard turned out as well as they did.


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## Roger Knox

........................................


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## Roger Knox

mparta said:


> I think he was a student of Widor.


The prodigy Tournemire was Franck's last student for a short time. After his beloved master died he studied with Widor, with whom he did not get along. Two very different temperaments and philosophies, probably. He did credit Widor with helping to bring his organ technique up to a high standard. Tournemire excelled in organ improvisation.


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## mparta

Not exactly daily fare. A very talented woman who ran in the highest artistic circles of France in the last half of the 19th century.

Her music seems to have been accepted by the public but derided by critics for being.. by a woman

There are big works that aren't recorded, maybe more than one opera?

This is the kind of disc with bits and pieces pieces that I usually avoid. I like a big sustained thought in order to "get it". This, first, doesn't provide that.

Second, it doesn't provide much of anything. I read the reviews on Amazon and there seems to be a bit of special pleading. I've only listened twice, out of duty, and will try again, but I hear nothing of interest.

i think she wrote songs to her own texts. Perhaps try that next.

I don't like not liking music, but I can't say this generated much interest. Sorry.


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## Roger Knox

Nothing to be sorry about -- you gave your opinion, fair enough.


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## Roger Knox

In post #71 I mentioned we won't include *Claude Debussy (1862-1918)* who is neither unheralded nor mainly a late romantic composer. As for impressionism in orchestral music, for the purposes of this thread it occupies a somewhat analogous role in France to post-romanticism in Germany: that of an extension and re-direction of late romanticism. In Debussy there are connections with Ernest Chausson above all, and Vincent D'Indy with whom there was influence both ways. For the group born 1850-74 Debussy stands out among a number of geniuses - as an innovator but also as a consolidator of the innovations of others from France, Russia, Scandinavia, Germany and other countries. In his great orchestral works _Prelude á l'après-midi d'un faune_, _Nocturnes_, _Images_ and _La mer_ he shows consistency and a strong sense of personal and French style.


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## Roger Knox

Two big surprises are the symphonies by *Maurice Emmanuel (1862-1938)*. An admired historian of music, he was also a creative musician of high distinction, and the _Symphony No. 1_ (1919) and _Symphony No. 2 "Bretonne"_ (1931) both deserve more recognition and performances as we shall see.


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## Roger Knox

I enjoy *Maurice Emmanuel's* symphonies and think others might too. Beautifully orchestrated, they are unique with a certain leanness rather than lushness. Both western modes and eastern scales are in Emmanuel's vocabulary as major determinants of his harmonies. Turn-of-the-century chromaticism and pervasive counterpoint also figure prominently with a tendency to more dissonance in the Second Symphony, especially in _Le Poème du Rhône_ (1938), his posthumously orchestrated symphonic poem. Another characteristic of these compositions is fast harmonic rhythm in places. My preferred recording is by the Slovenian Philharmonic Orchestra/Emmanuel Villaume; Timpani, 2010.

Symphony No. 1 is a bright, uplifting work. Its slow, pastoral opening melody is in the Lydian mode, the major scale with the fourth note raised. Its 4th "points upward" something like a "leading tone" to the 5th scale degree - suggesting open, perhaps skyward movement - and appears again in the following allegro. The slow movement opens in the F Lydian mode, then quickly becomes more chromatic. The finale is an energetic march with a cyclic return to the first movement's opening.

Symphony No. 2 "Bretonne" joins a number of French works that reference the French region of Brittany -- its landscape, people and music. In this work folk melodies appear a number of times. There are some similarities to the First Symphony, such as the pastoral second movement Scherzando, but there is also music that is more complex metrically and harmonically. In the Finale there is a collage-like cross-cutting between passages, á la Stravinsky. Both of these compact works are well worth a hearing.


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## Roger Knox

*Firing Blanks: Composers Who Abandoned or Destroyed Their Music*

It has struck me that three of this thread's most admired composers chose to abandon or destroy their music, resulting in significantly smaller catalogues. The composers are *Henri Duparc (1848-1933),* *Ernest Chausson (1855-99)* and *Paul Dukas (1865-1935)*.

A general explanation is that these composers were perfectionists, and that during the era sometimes called *La Belle Epoche (1870-1914)* the field became highly competitive, the number of major talents increasing rapidly. But there is more to it. On this issue, I will be commenting on each of the above composers and would welcome everyone's input.


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## Roger Knox

Roger Knox said:


> I will be commenting on each of the above composers and would welcome everyone's input


Concerning the previous post, I've decided to pursue only briefly the issue of why certain composers abandoned or destroyed works we would now like to be able to hear. The reason is that to delve into each composer's situation fairly is not a simple matter, and would go beyond both my available time and this thread's usual level of detail. (The Duparc and Chausson posts on this thread refer briefly to their cases.) Paul Dukas was a perfectionist like Chausson. Well regarded by his colleagues, the international success of _The Sorcerer's Apprentice_ made him famous. He received a prestigious teaching position at the Conservatoire that led him to work with top students, but the demands of the job cut into composing time during the later years of his life. I've learned that Maurice Emmanuel was also a perfectionist composer who destroyed works. And his wide-ranging research and publication programme on ancient and Eastern music became a career in itself.

Behind the "perfectionism" are the era's demands: the larger and more diverse orchestra; scores more complex in harmony, texture, and orchestration; and a highly critical and increasingly factionalized press. In the early twentieth century factionalization played a large role in the notorious Dreyfus Affair, in which much of French society including musicians took opposing positions. Composing became a politically stressful vocation.


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## Roger Knox

Continuing with French orchestral composers born 1860-1874, we have *Gabriel Pierné, Jean-Guy Ropartz, Albéric Magnard, Paul Dukas, Erik Satie, Charles Koechlin, Dynam-Victor Fumet, Albert Roussel, Louis Vierne,* (more of) *Charles Tournemire, Florent Schmitt, Déodat de Severac, Jean-Jules Roger-Ducasse,* and *Reynaldo Hahn.* An impressive group.

Everyone on TalkClassical is invited to post on this thread -- basically, whatever you wish to include about one composer, one work, one recording, or more than one in the latter two categories if you wish. We don't have to retain the order of composers above.

One heads up -- *Charles Koechlin's* surname is pronounced _Kay-clin_ (rhymes with _vin_). For more on that -- follow the thread!


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## Pat Fairlea

Fascinating thread. Anyone for Chaminade?


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## Roger Knox

Pat Fairlea said:


> Fascinating thread. Anyone for Chaminade?


Thanks for your observation -- there is a lot of fine music from this era and much to discuss. I like and value Chaminade's music very much, and would be interested in your thoughts on her works and recordings of them.

In post #82 I wrote on her 2 compositions for solo instrument and orchestra, but not on recordings or performances. Some are on YouTube:
- Concertino for Flute and Orchestra, op. 102 (1907) 
- Concert-piece for Piano and Orchestra (1908)

And this work would be good to know about, haven't listened to it yet: 
- Callirhoë, Op. 37, ballet symphonique (1888) 





She was considered a very good orchestrator, and there are quite a few unpublished orchestrations of her piano works. I'm not a Spotify user but her major work _Les Amazones_ for soloists, chorus and orchestra is available there.


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## Roger Knox

Here we will include romantic and impressionist, but not modernist, compositions by *Albert Roussel (1869-1937)*. (In brief, for this thread modernism begins around 1910, the era of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring; Schoenberg's String Quartet No. 2 and Piano Pieces, op. 11; and Bartok's Allegro barbaro.)

Doing this thread I first became aware of the early orchestral compositions of Roussel. Late romantic with impressionist leanings, these works floored me since previously I was only aware of his neo-classical music such as the Third Symphony and Piano Concerto. A late starter following his naval career, Roussel was a serious-minded composer who progressed quickly at the Schola Cantorum under Vincent D'Indy. His symphonic prelude _Resurrection _(1904) is already a mature work based on Tolstoy's novel. The _First Symphony: Le Poème de la forêt_ (1904-6) shows the impressionist influences of Debussy and Ravel, but also Roussel's abilities with thematic interest and continuity in a large form. The extended three-movement orchestral suite with chorus _Evocations_ (1912) brought him to widespread public notice, with its shimmering orchestration and the fascinating atmosphere of India that he absorbed over seven years as a naval officer in the East.

We shouldn't imply that there are two Roussels - the pre-war romantic impressionist and the post-war neo-classicist. The Second Symphony (1919-21) I find to be a convincing work that shows aspects of both phases. But during the 1920's and '30's he became his own kind of neo-classicist while retaining earlier traits, and gained world renown in a changed era. There is a list of recommended recordings by *josquin13* on post #12 of this thread.


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## Roger Knox

Check out the discussion about different recordings of Vincent D'Indy's Symphony on a French Mountain Air, as this weekend's Saturday Symphony in the thread *Orchestral Music*/*SS 03.04.21 - d'Indy - Symphonie sur un chant montagnard*. Lots of choice there -- PrestoMusic lists 30 options!


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## Roger Knox

The early overtures of *Paul Dukas (1865-1935)* show his progress from two works written before he was twenty, to maturity as a composer. The formerly missing _King Lear_ (1883) was re-discovered in the 1990's. It is a tragic romantic work, with imposing brass chorale writing but derivative in style. _Götz von Berlichingen_ from the following year is much better. It is fast and exciting with effective string passages. A long build-up to the close features an impressive wind-brass chorus over rushing strings, somewhat reminiscent of Wagner's _Tannhäuser_ Overture to be sure. _Polyeucte_ (1891), for Corneille's tragedy, is powerfully orchestrated with evocative solos for English horn and clarinet. Here the application and variation of motifs is sophisticated and the modulating harmony adventurous.

With repeated hearings I have come to appreciate the Symphony in C Major (1897) of Dukas more and more. The Wagnerisms are mostly gone, and there is a sense of Saint-Saëns' energetic classicism being combined with Franck's distinctive romanticism into something new. The first movement is convincing and well-structured, and the second magnificently expressive in a way that seems original. The finale returns to the opening movement's energy but with a simpler and less formal manner. Unfortunately, listening to rousing finales at home lacks the live acoustics and uplifted audience that makes them so effective in concert, which is where I hope to experience this work at some point.

Whatever Dukas learned from composing this First Symphony must have benefitted his symphonic poem of the following year; _The Sorcerer's Apprentice_ is just about as perfect formally and as deservedly popular as any work of this type I can think of. This thread does not cover ballet scores but with _La Péri_ (1911-12), Dukas moved into a near-impressionist phase with a deserving work that has also taken its place in the concert hall and on recordings.


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## Roger Knox

*Florent Schmitt (1870-1958)* has received increased attention in recent years, in part through the discovery and recording of some previously-unknown earliest works. In general his earlier music can be described as late romantic/impressionist; in the 1920's Schmitt moved in a modernist direction. He was an excellent orchestrator, an outstanding pianist, and he wrote beautifully for the voice, composing successfully in all prominent genres except opera. Nevertheless his reputation has been damaged by his troubling political views in the 1930's and collaboration with the pro-German Vichy government during World War II. I am focusing here on his orchestral music up to 1920, which shows his consistent stylistic development.

The early orchestral works of Schmitt include _Soirs_ (1890-96); _Le palais hanté_ (1904); and _Rêves_ (1915). _Soirs_ was originally a collection of 10 piano pieces, of which Schmitt orchestrated eight, changing the order (some performances also include fewer than the whole set.) These attractive pieces show the influence of his teacher Fauré. The composer's advancing harmonic language and adventurous spirit, as well as his tendency toward the dark side appear in _Le palais hanté_, described as a symphonic etude based on Edgar Allan Poe's poem The Haunted Palace. Another important work for orchestra is _Rêves_ (Dreams), some of which are nightmares! But because Schmitt is always in control of his material, with melodic, harmonic, and orchestrational aspects of high interest, this listener at least finds these works more fascinating than frightening.

Schmitt also composed a number of concertante works, two of which follow shortly after _Rêves_: _J'entends dans le lointain_ for piano and orchestra (1917); and _Légende_ for alto saxophone and orchestra (1918). The first-named originated as No. 1 in Schmitt's three-piece suite for piano solo _Ombres_, once again showing how this composer like Ravel was able to create orchestral works of equal or higher stature out of his piano pieces. Finally, the renowned _Légende_ also exists in successful versions for cello and for violin. _(to be continued)_


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## Roger Knox

Continuing from the previous post, here are two corrections: *Florent Schmitt's* _Légende_ for alto saxophone and piano was also issued in an orchestrated version; there were versions for violin or viola solo too. I have heard it played on cello but that may have come later. An excellent premiere recording of the violin/orchestra version, played by Nikky Chooi, is one of the featured works on an award-winning 2020 Naxos release by the Buffalo Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by JoAnn Falletta. This all-Schmitt CD includes the symphonic poem from the ballet _The Tragedy of Salomé_ (1910), the premiere voice-and-orchestra recording of _Musique sur l'eau_ (1898) sung by Susan Platts, and the suite from the ballet _Oriane et le Prince d'Amour_ (1934). _The Tragedy of Salomé_ is considered by some to be Schmidt's masterpiece. I recommend it highly for anyone who likes the orchestral works in the previous thread. It builds on the high drama of the story to create an orchestral tour-de-force. Drama brings out Schmitt's strengths. Another high-quality example can be heard on a previous Buffalo Philharmonic/Falleta Naxos release: his suites _Antoine et Cléopatre_ Nos. 1 & 2 (1920), from his incidental music to the play. In addition the CD includes Schmitt's _Le palais hanté_.

Florent Schmitt lived a long and productive life. His later modernist works are important and show the stamp of his distinctive musical personality. For more on the Schmitt revival see www.florentschmitt.com.


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## Prodromides

Begging the pardon of Roger Knox, I wish to interject into these fine texts a few uncompromisingly selfish perspectives here.

During the late 1980s & early 1990s, smaller independent record labels + their album producers + the medium of the compact disc itself spearheaded recordings of 'unheralded' compositons (French or otherwise). Koechlin & Schmitt were for me two gateways into the adventurous realm of 20th century musical expressions thanks to Cybelia, Marco Polo, Ades, etc.

For the few human beings on the planet who might be interested in such, these following CDs are what I consider to be essential Florent Schmitt listening:

Cybelia CY 842










Auvidis-Valois V 4687










Marco Polo 8.223448










Ades 203592










During this timeframe, many musical works (which were never-before on vinyl records) received their decades-overdue world premiere recordings ... and this is how I got 'into' classical music via the back-door - by listening to Schmitt's *Salome* before ever seeing *Salome* by Richard Strauss. By listening to Schmitt's *Symphonie Concertante* alongside Stravinsky & Bartok ... and bypassing Mozart & Beethoven. Blind-buying all those Cybelia CDs leaves me the with 2 cents I impart to thee @ TC.


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## Roger Knox

*A Brief Pause*

This thread comes with one guarantee - that for each composer I listen to all the orchestral music that I can get access to. That can take quite a while. As we get into the twentieth century, the reason I stop at modernist works is not that I don't like modernism. It is rather to keep the focus on late romantic, postromantic, and impressionist music. Also I'm afraid of the incredible divisiveness that I've seen occur when romanticism and modernism jostle with each other. But that is a topic to discuss elsewhere.

So far that has meant (with Roussel and Schmitt) that we have stopped in the early 1920's. But *Reynaldo Hahn (1874-1947)*, for example, continued to compose in a late romantic style into the 1930's. For example his Piano Concerto dates from 1931. I believe that drawing attention to romanticism and its variants through the first half of the twentieth century can make a big difference - look at the upsurge of interest in Korngold's music over the last quarter century, for example.

Coming up we will see some prolific composers including Pierné, Ropartz, Magnard, Koechlin, and Tournemire, and some with small outputs. One conclusion that I've already reached is that the complete works of Koechlin take the prize for Most Confusing Oeuvre! Stay tuned.


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## Roger Knox

Prodromides said:


> Begging the pardon of Roger Knox, I wish to interject into these fine texts a few uncompromisingly selfish perspectives here.
> 
> During the late 1980s & early 1990s, smaller independent record labels + their album producers + the medium of the compact disc itself spearheaded recordings of 'unheralded' compositons (French or otherwise). Koechlin & Schmitt were for me two gateways into the adventurous realm of 20th century musical expressions thanks to Cybelia, Marco Polo, Ades, etc.
> 
> During this timeframe, many musical works (which were never-before on vinyl records) received their decades-overdue world premiere recordings ... and this is how I got 'into' classical music via the back-door - by listening to Schmitt's *Salome* before ever seeing *Salome* by Richard Strauss. By listening to Schmitt's *Symphonie Concertante* alongside Stravinsky & Bartok ... and bypassing Mozart & Beethoven. Blind-buying all those Cybelia CDs leaves me the with 2 cents I impart to thee @ TC.


Great! These major recordings conducted by Segerstam, Robertson, Davin, and Mercier bring a crucial European perspective, plus the story of how you became interested in classical music is terrific. More later.

(more): It is notable that Schmitt's compositions had such a powerful effect on you, and it shows the value of these recordings of overlooked compositions. Incidentally the recent Naxos recording of _The Tragedy of Salome_ that I discussed won the Diapason D'Or prize in March and was the #2 selling CD on Naxos in the months after it was released (source: Philip Nones on florentschmitt.com.) Many people are interested in this music.

Something similar happened to me several years ago with Franz Schmidt's Symphony No. 2 on the Sony recording by the Vienna Philharmonic recording/Semyon Bychkov. Not that I was new to classical music, but the whole area of neglected orchestral works c. 1850-1950 was new. Hearing the Schmidt is why I joined TalkClassical and continued to explore this area of German and Austrian music before taking on French music.

As for this thread, your posts are always welcome as are those from anyone on TC -- information, comments, criticisms, stories. I am not trying to create some exclusive territory, and have repeatedly asked people to post.


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## Prodromides

Not to throw a spanner into the works, but there is yet more French romanticism until the late 1950s in regards to music written for French-language cinema. To cite only a baker's dozen:

Georges Auric, Joseph Kosma, Paul Misraki, René Cloërec, Georges Van Parys, Darius Milhaud, Vincent Scotto, Maurice Thiriet, Arthur Honegger, Jean-Jacques Grunenwald, Jacques Ibert, Henri Sauguet & Maurice Jaubert.


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## Roger Knox

Prodromides said:


> Not to throw a spanner into the works, but there is yet more French romanticism until the late 1950s in regards to music written for French-language cinema.


French romanticism in music for the cinema is something i know very little about. Needless to say there are a lot of fine composers in the list. It would be a good topic for another thread and I suspect that quite a few people would have interesting things to say.


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## Roger Knox

Looking for a segue from Florent Schmitt to *Gabriel Pierné (1863-1937)*, I discovered that they both came from the Lorraine region, part of which -- together with Alsace -- became German-controlled after the Franco-Prussian War (1870-71). Schmitt's background was both French and German and his family stayed, whereas Pierné's was French and the family left the region for Paris after the war. The young boy was a prodigy who entered the Paris Conservatoire as an eight-year-old, studying with Massenet and Franck. Eventually he excelled in four areas: composition, piano, organ, and conducting. He built a career as a top conductor who led premieres of important works, e.g. Stravinsky's _Firebird_. As an orchestral composer, sometimes he wrote in a lighter vein (as did his teacher Massenet). Of his four concertante works for piano the Fantasy-Ballet (1885) and Scherzo-Caprice (1890) can be so described. I enjoy their fleet-fingered French pianism and also that of the Piano Concerto (1887), where light passagework is joined by thundering octaves and thick chords as in Saint-Saëns' Piano Concerto No. 2 in G minor. Pierné holds our interest whether through melody, virtuosity, charm, contrast, or other qualities, while over the longer term his changes in style coupled with resemblances to other composers also remain characteristic. The _Poème-Symphonique_ (1901) is different, though, with its tragic manner and restless modulations, followed by pianistic and orchestral brilliance in the triumphal closing fugato. On record Jean-Efflam Bavouzet with BBC Philharmonic Orchestra/Juanjo Mena on Chandos capture the full flavour of these four works with brio and insight. _(to be continued)_


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## Roger Knox

*Gabriel Pierné* wrote some other effective concertante works: the _Konzertstück _(1901) and _Morceau de concert_ (1903) for harp and orchestra; and the _Fantaisie basque_ for violin and orchestra (1927). The last-named is among recording links for Pierné in Josquin13's post #12 on this thread.

There are also links for some of his orchestral works, many of which are suites from ballets or incidental music. (The link there for the symphonic poem for orchestra and chorus _L'an mil_ [The Year 1000: 1897] is no longer active, but the recording is still on YT.) _L'an mil_, _Les Cathédrales_ (Prelude: 1915), and _Paysages franciscains_ (1920) are major works and I particularly like the latter two. (see https://classicalmjourney.blogspot.com/2017/05/gabriel-pierne-lan-mil-les-cathedrales.html.)

Unfortunately I don't have time to write on all of Pierné's orchestral music, but wish to emphasize that he excelled in both light and more serious music, which in _L'an mil_ shows affinities with his organ teacher Franck. In the later _Paysages franciscains_ the influence of his collaborator Debussy was starting to show, in the move towards impressionism of his later years. There is more on Pierné in his TC Composer guestbook at: Gabriel Pierné


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## Roger Knox

Now we've arrived at the time of *Joseph-Guy Ropartz (1864-1955)* and *Albéric Magnard (1865-1914*), two composers who have been both unheralded and restored. I was surprised to see that Ropartz's symphonies each have only one recording listed, while Magnard's, presumably more popular, each have five. My assumption was that the numbers would be higher, because both composers offer excellent symphonies and that there have been major attempts to raise awareness through performances, recordings, and associated literature. Also Ropartz has received considerable status as the first of a strong group of Breton composers. Nevertheless, only so much can be done and currently catalogues of classical music are thinning.


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## Roger Knox

I've had a wonderful time listening to *Joseph-Guy Ropartz's* early tone poems. _La Cloche des morts_ (1887) opens with the ostinato E-F#-C (the foreboding bells) over which there are string and woodwind entries. The piece continues with changed tonal centres, ending in the major key. _La Chasse du Prince Arthur_ (1912) reminds us of the Celtic Arthurian Cycle that entered France through Brittany where it became enduring folklore. Characteristically for Ropartz, there is a sustained high violin pitch and the gradual coalescing of a melody in the bass, creating a sombre, impressionist atmosphere with trills and rich ambiguous harmonies. A brass clamour builds leading into the major key rollicking chase scene with ominous interludes. Melodies supported by parallel chords thicken the texture. The full orchestra has a moving chorale providing an extended and satisfying ending.

_Soir sur les chaumes_ (1913; "chaumes = "stubble-fields") is the longest and most enigmatic of the group at 14-½ minutes. This time a two-note high-register ostinato alternating between octaves provides the "ceiling" (night sky?) while sustained tones below create a mysterious mood. Loud oncoming and receding waves of sound are followed by a mournful, passionate melody in the oboe and strings. A folk-like tune enters over the menacing bass ostinato in 5/8 time. A yearning quality prevails but the uneasy beat remains, up to the romantic climax that eventually subsides back into the opening mystery.

The above all appear on a Timpani disc from 2013 by the Luxembourg Philharmonic Orchestra/Emmanuel Krivine. The three-movement_ Sons des cloches_ (1913) is on another Timpani disc by the Orchestre de Bretagne/Pascal Verrot. L'Angelus, Le Glas, and Cloches du soir each are movements structured by simple ostinatos in church-bell-like patterns.


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## Prodromides

Roger Knox said:


> I was surprised to see that Ropartz's symphonies each have only one recording listed,


Listed where?

The 3rd symphony of Ropartz has had more than one incarnation.

EMI's 1985 LP on Michel Plasson's direction of the orchestre du capitole de Toulouse ...










... re-issued onto CD in 1993










the 2012 Timpani CD










Curiously, ArkivMusic's site lists Ropartz twice:

https://www.arkivmusic.com/Catalog/Category?CategoryId=16937&term=Ropartz

One entry is "Joseph Guy Ropartz" (without hyphen) whilst the other is simply "Guy Ropartz".


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## Roger Knox

Prodromides said:


> Listed where?
> 
> Curiously, ArkivMusic's site lists Ropartz twice:
> 
> https://www.arkivmusic.com/Catalog/Category?CategoryId=16937&term=Ropartz
> 
> One entry is "Joseph Guy Ropartz" (without hyphen) whilst the other is simply "Guy Ropartz".


Thanks, Prodromides for providing this information. It is really helpful. I was using Prestomusic.com. For Symphony No. 3, they list the Ossonce recording you have shown above. For Symphonies 1 & 4, and 2 & 5, they list the Orchèstre Symphonique et Lyrique de Nancy, Sebastian Lang-Lessing, also on Timpani.

Next time I'll check ArkivMusic as well.

As for the name, I've seen both Joseph-Guy Ropartz (as in your image for Symphony No. 3 above) and Joseph Guy Ropartz. Is it possible that Joseph-Guy is the French usage and Joseph Guy the English?


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## Prodromides

Roger Knox said:


> As for the name, I've seen both Joseph-Guy Ropartz (as in your image for Symphony No. 3 above) and Joseph Guy Ropartz. Is it possible that Joseph-Guy is the French usage and Joseph Guy the English?


Perhaps English-speakers consider Guy as a 2nd (middle) name ... it appears as though his first name is Joseph-Guy.

Earlier recordings seem to omit Joseph altogether and simply posit Guy as his first name:

https://www.amazon.com/Guy-Ropartz-Sonatas-cello-piano/dp/B00ZYTAPH0

Can you believe some Amazon sellers ask over $900 for this Cybelia CD?


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## Roger Knox

Prodromides said:


> Perhaps English-speakers consider Guy as a 2nd (middle) name ... it appears as though his first name is Joseph-Guy.
> 
> Earlier recordings seem to omit Joseph altogether and simply posit Guy as his first name:
> 
> Can you believe some Amazon sellers ask over $900 for this Cybelia CD?


Thanks, Prodromides, for your information on the Ropartz name. 
At ArkivMusic I couldn't find any Ropartz symphony listed.
An Amazon seller is asking $902.81 for Ropartz Symphony No. 3. Omigod - I guess this Ropartz guy must be good!


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## Roger Knox

The _Symphonie no. 1: Sur un choral breton_ (1895) in A minor by *Joseph-Guy Ropartz* opens with a progression of three crisis-laden chords, followed by a sombre melody for cello that is answered by the oboe. In the allegro the same mood continues, though things lighten up with the major-key second theme. Restless modulation reminding one of César Franck follows in the development section, and a recapitulation plus short coda complete the orthodox sonata-form movement. What I find significant is a grey, dignified yet pulsating-with-life feeling, that may be related to the composer's sense of his home region, Brittany. The second movement in effect compresses a slow movement and scherzo together in a three-part form. A plaintive oboe melody opens, succeeded by a contrasting pastoral section featuring violins. The middle part of the movement is the "scherzo," but I found this section diffuse. The transition to the opening has metric tension with recurring passages in 5/8 meter. The finale opens with a folk-like melody, the oboe takes the lead again as the tempo slows, and there is a build-up towards the first climax with the opening movement's crisis chords. Near the movement's end the brass section join in, playing the theme in augmentation over the busy orchestra until a triumphant close in which the three-chord progression resolves on the tonic major chord.

Ropartz's Symphony No. 2 (1900) in F minor has interesting points of comparison with the First. Again there is the sombre mood with the opening movement beginning with a notable three-chord progression. But the work is more march-like, more compact even though now in the classical four movements, and it has a conventional second-movement scherzo. The Adagio third movement is the heart of this work -- one of the most beautiful of symphonic slow movements, with exquisite craft and a depth of feeling comparable to the Adagietto of Mahler's Fifth, or the third movement of Korngold's symphony. The Finale opens with a rollicking folk-like theme which becomes the subject of a seven-part rondo. It ends with trumpet flourishes and a magnificent chorale-like close.


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## Roger Knox

I would like to give special praise to his Symphony No. 3 with chorus (1906), which has been included on the recent TC Choral Symphonies thread. This is certainly one of Ropartz's best symphonies, and the favourite of many. See the recording's cover shown in post#117 above. It was soon followed by Symphony No 4 (1910), another fine work. On the Timpani label it is paired with Symphony No.1, as is Symphony No. 2 with No. 5 (see post #118 above).

Some of Ropartz's later orchestral compositions were in a more modern style, including the _Petite Symphonie_ (1943) and Symphony No. 5 (1945). He also wrote lighter works throughout his career. As for concertante pieces, listeners to his symphonies will not be surprised by the instrument featured in two of them: _Lamento_ for oboe and orchestra (1887) and _Pastorale et Dances_ for oboe and orchestra (1907).

Because of limited time, I'm now going to discuss Magnard's Symphonies No. 1 and No. 2. Then I will do a comparison of both composers' No. 3's, and finally compare both No. 4's. Got it?


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## Roger Knox

*Albéric Magnard's* Symphony No. 1 (1889) is a tremendous accomplishment by the 24-year-old composer. In the exciting opening movement, phrases are numerous creating a short-breathed quality, harmony is fast in chord changes and nimble in key changes, and in a fugato we see his penchant for counterpoint. "Romantic counterpoint" may seem to be an odd phrase but it applies to Magnard whose skill is astonishing to me. The opening theme will recur in later movements, a simple application of César Franck's cyclic principle. The movement's ending is sublime. Following is a movement marked _Religioso_. It has the feel of a hymn or procession building to massed forces. Interestingly the strings carry the main theme, while the brass contributes agile counter-melodies. The third movement opens like a scherzo where chromatic motion and unpredictable harmonies in the strings suggest night spirits. Then there is a contrasting major key chorale from the winds, followed by the strings, and contrapuntal complexity increases. In the finale there is an assertive march-like version of the theme while a more lyrical section follows. At the close, the chorale melody from the second movement is delivered magnificently by the brass surrounded by arpeggiating strings.

The Symphony No. 2 (1893) by Magnard certainly has one thing in common with Ropartz's No. 2 - their slow movements are particularly beautiful. I find that these two are alive in bringing forward beauty in any of its dimensions - such as melody, sound, mood - to the level of profound moments. The Magnard's opening movement is lively and fresh sounding, with the composer's trademark modulations and counterpoint. It is followed by a movement called _Danses vif_ - which starts like music for folk dancing but becomes much more developed. There is a suggestion of piping with a sustained drone and flutes on top. The afore-mentioned slow movement is called _Chant varié_, in whose sonorous opening wind lines are effectively woven through the spellbinding string passages. In the contrasting middle section, a moving oboe solo over a two-chord ostinato, with sustained high strings, is breathtaking. With the finale, marked _Vif et gai_, a dance feeling again is created; this time there is alternation between the fast opening music and slower lyrical interludes.

Concerning recordings of Nos. 1 & 2, I listened to the finely-conducted Toulouse Capital Orchestra/Michel Plasson, available on Warner Classics. But for superior sound and orchestral playing, I suggest checking out the 2020 recordings by the Freiburg Philharmonic/Fabrice Bolton on Naxos that have received excellent reviews.


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## progmatist

Josquin13 said:


> 8. Cesar Franck:
> 
> --Le Chasseur Maudit:


Franck's Le Chasseur Maudit (The Accursed Huntsman) remains a favorite of mine by any composer, not just French romantic composers.


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## Josquin13

I expect some people will agree that Charles Koechlin is a neglected composer, or an acquired taste?, but there also seems to be some agreement that his works run the gamut in terms of quality, ranging from the strikingly original and highly imaginative, to the dull and ponderous, even routine. Over the past decade, I've become a fan of Koechlin's music, but sometimes I find that his music lasts longer than the sum of his best ideas. For instance, it's not uncommon for a Koechlin work to last 45-65 minutes. Yet, at other times I find myself entranced throughout the duration of a Koechlin piece, & am willing to accept its length as a necessary process for Koechlin to create a quiet, meditative, Zen-like experience for his listener: one that is intoxicating, somber, peaceful, mysterious, solitary, mystical, hazy and languid, but also occasionally mixed with a sense of nostalgia, forlornness, and regret. Conversely, his music can also be harrowing, eccentric, and agitated. There are times when Koechlin writes with a disarming simplicity, while at other times he composes complex, chromatic fugues and lush harmonies, which in his symphonic works can envelope the listener in a wall of orchestral sound.

According to his biographer, Robert Orledge, Koechlin was a polymath with diverse interests in astronomy, philosophy, literature, etc. Therefore, it's hardly surprising to find a strong degree of eclecticism in Koechlin's music: both in terms of his use of varied musical styles--such as Impressionism, Romanticism, Neo-Classicism, Modernism, & a reliance on Baroque counterpoint, but also his utilization of a wide range of subject matter--such as Breton folksongs, Hollywood movie stars, pantheism, Orientalism, Hellenistic culture, nature, astronomy, etc. He would have made a fantastic film composer, had Hollywood ever taken notice. For me, there is indeed something cinematic about how Koechlin's orchestral music is sometimes conceived in non-symphonic terms. Koechlin also taught composition in the United States, like his friend, Darius Milhaud, so he must have had an influence on the American composers of his day, and therefore it seems likely that that influence extended towards film composers (like Milhaud's). It would be an interesting subject to explore in more depth....

That Koechlin was a highly skilled, brilliant orchestrator is in no doubt. His four-volume "Traité de l'orchestration"(1935-1943) is regarded as a reference work on the subject, and along with his orchestral music, prompted conductor Heinz Holliger to describe Koechlin as a "alchemist of sounds". I like that description, & find it apt. Hence, it doesn't surprise me that both Claude Debussy and Gabriel Faure asked Koechlin to orchestrate works for them: Faure his "Pelleas et Melisande" when Koechlin was his pupil, and Debussy his late ballet "Khamma", when Debussy was too ill to do so himself towards the end of his life (though Debussy worked closely with Koechlin, so the orchestration may not be entirely Koechlin's, although he gets credit for it). (By the way, interestingly, Koechlin wrote the first biography of his teacher, Faure, published in 1927.)

--Khamma: 



--Pelleas et Melisande: 




To my ears, Koechlin had a rare ability to match and blend instrumental timbres. He was particularly drawn to unusual instruments and combinations of instruments, such as the Ondes Martenot and Saxophone. He also wrote brilliantly for various combinations of woodwinds. In his chamber music, Koechlin's keen ear for matching various woodwinds & strings can remind me a bit of F.J. Haydn. Indeed, there is a Haydnesque charm in some of Koechlin's chamber works for woodwinds, despite that the music sounds more modern. For example, it's interesting to compare the following two works, especially in relation to Haydn's boisterous 1st movement & Koechlin's 2nd movement:

--Koechlin Trio for Oboe, Clarinet, and Bassoon, Op. 206 (1945): 



--Haydn London Trio: 




Nor are Koechlin's woodwind pieces the only place in his opus where I am reminded of Haydn. His String Quartet No. 1 is another piece of music that has a Haydn like charm, as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdDBqx79PFw; along with his remarkable "Suite en quatour", Op. 55 (1911/1915): 



. (By the way, I consider Koechlin's first String Quartet to be one of the finest quartets of the French 'impressionist' era, but as with so much of his music, I've also found that I had to listen to the quartet several times before I began to fully appreciate how masterful & beautiful it is.)

In Koechlin's orchestral music, we don't always hear these instrumental timbres being matched and blended quite as individually or intimately as in his chamber music. Yet the same keen ear and deft understanding of counterpoint is at work creating larger masses of instrumental colors and shades.

Koechlin seems to have particularly enjoyed making orchestrations and arrangements of his own chamber and solo works. There are two versions of a number of his major works--the one being a later orchestration or instrumental arrangement of the earlier, original solo or chamber work. His Symphony no. 1, Op. 57bis, for instance, is an 1926 orchestration of his 1915-16 String Quartet No. 2:

--Symphony no. 1, Op. 57bis (orchestral version, 1926, recorded by the ORTF, conducted by Manuel Rosenthal): 



--String Quartet, no. 2, Op. 57 (1911-16): 




Koechlin's symphonic output can be confusing, as well, since there are only two numbered symphonies out of four or five (being that there is an earlier fragment symphony, which Koechlin abandoned--the Symphony in A major, 1893-1908). When I first heard Koechlin's Symphony no. 2, Op. 196, composed between 1943-44, I remember being tempted to interpret its harrowing, darkly chromatic, fugal 1st movement as an expression of Koechlin's anquished, even tormented response to the Nazi occupation of Paris and the horrors of World War II in 1943-44. Here is the symphony performed by the London Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Constantin Silvestri, & recorded by the BBC in a radio broadcast: 



. While Koechlin's Symphony no. 1, Op. 57bis music was, as mentioned, orchestrated in 1926 but completed earlier during the midst of World War 1 in 1915-16 as his String Quartet No. 2. Hence, I wonder if the stark mood of its similarly fugal 1st movement reflects Koechlin's response to the darkened world of WWI? It's interesting that Koechlin's only two numbered symphonies were composed during the nightmares of the 20th century's two great wars--both of which he lived through and survived.

Frustratingly, neither Koechlin's Symphony No. 1 nor No. 2 have been officially recorded, to my knowledge. I've only ever heard Koechlin's 2nd Symphony in the live BBC radio broadcast that I linked to above, a recording that has never made it onto CD (probably because the original BBC tape is damaged in spots). While I've only ever heard his Symphony No. 1 in the French radio broadcast that I linked to above, conducted by Ravel's student, Manuel Rosenthal. Which has me wondering if either work gets performed in the concert hall? and if not, what has made these two symphonies so prohibitive for orchestras to perform and record? Is it that they open with darkly chromatic, harrowing 1st movements? Or do orchestral programmers & recording executives simply not know about them?

In addition, there are a number of movements from Koechlin's orchestral works that have become popular as "symphonic poems". For example, the following four movements from Koechlin's "Le Livre de la Jungle" cycle (based on Rudyard Kipling's The Jungle Book") get performed and recorded as independent symphonic works:

--Les Bandar-log, Op. 175: 



. 
--La Course de printemps, Op. 95: 



--La Méditation de Purun Bhaghat, Op. 159:



--La loi de la Jungle, Op. 175: 




For the complete work, here's a link to David Zinman's world premiere recording of the entire "Le Livre de la Jungle", which is comprised of the four symphonic poems mentioned above, along with three orchestral songs: 




Here too is a link to the complete "Le Livre de la Jungle" from a 2006 'visual arts' production by François Boucq, which I discovered on You Tube: 



.

"The Jungle Book" is probably Koechlin's most recorded orchestral work to date, considering that in addition to Zinman's recording, there are also recordings by conductors Stuart Bedford & the Orchestre National de Montpellier, and Leif Segerstam & the Rheinland-Pfalz Philharmonic: https://www.chandos.net/products/catalogue/MP 3484.

As for his other symphonies, Koechlin's intriguing "Symphonie d'Hymnes" (1936) is, according to Wikipedia, a cycle of "previously-composed independent movements". However, Wiki doesn't tell us what these movements are, so I can't say whether they've been recorded or not, only that the "Symphonie d'Hymnes" itself has never been recorded. Frustratingly, if I knew what these previously composed movements were that made up the "Symphonie d'Hymnes", and if they'd been recorded, I could give people some idea about the content of the work. But until then, or until some record label contracts an orchestra to record it, I expect the symphony will remain a mystery.

EDIT: I've just made a discovery. I found out that conductor Franz André and the Orchestre National de la R.T. F. recorded the "Hymne à la Nuit" from the Symphonie d'Hymnes in 1960: 



. So apparently, that's one movement from the symphony. Which has me now wondering if Koechlin's "Hymne au soleil" might be another movement?, which seems likely: 



. But where's the rest?!

Of Koechlin's remaining symphonies, the only other work that has been recorded is "The Seven Stars Symphony", Op. 132 (1933), and I believe it's been done twice. I own the James Judd recording and like it: 



. The symphony derives from Koechlin's fascination with various Hollywood movie actors of the time, during Hollywood's "golden" era. Each of its seven movements corresponds to a different movie "star"--Douglas Fairbanks, Lilian Harvey, Greta Garbo, Clara Bow, Marlene Dietrich, Emil Jannings, and Charlie Chaplin. Interestingly, Koechlin had a film crush on Lilian Harvey at the time and wrote "imaginary" film scores (such as "The Portrait of Daisy Hamilton" for Lilian and himself!) and works dedicated to her, such as his "L'Album de Lilian", Books 1 & 2, and "Sept Chansons pour Gladys, Op. 151. He also composed works in tribute to other early Hollywood icons, such as his "Dances pour Ginger" Op. 163, for the actress, singer & dancer Ginger Rogers: 



, and the "Epitaph de Jean Harlow", Op. 164, written upon the death of actress Jean Harlow in 1937: 



.

In addition, Koechlin orchestrated two of his finest works for solo piano into larger arrangements: (1) his "Les Heures persanes", Op. 65 (or "The Persian Hours"), which he orchestrated for a full orchestra, and (2) his "Paysages et Marines", Op. 63b, which he arranged for a chamber ensemble during the last year of his life. The first is considered a major orchestral work by Koechlin & has received two excellent recordings from conductors Segerstam & Holliger. While the latter has also been recorded twice, but has yet to receive the kind of recognition that it deserves, IMO (its neglect is likely due to the arrangement being made much later in Koechlin's life in 1949-50, long after the 'impressionist' era had passed):

--Les Heures persanes (1913/1919), recorded by Leif Segerstam: 




--Les Heures persanes (1913/1919), recorded by Heinz Holliger. By the way, the following You Tube clip includes both the piano version (played by Michael Korstick) and the orchestral version: 



.

--Paysages et Marines, the chamber version, performed by Ensemble Zurich, led by Christoph Keller: 




--Paysages et Marines, the piano version, played by Michael Korstick: 



.

Koechlin also orchestrated his "Offrande musicale sur le nom de Bach", Op. 187 (or "Musical Offering on the name of Bach"), which was composed in 1942 as a solo piano work, & orchestrated in 1946. It's an intriguing late work that looks back in homage to Bach & the Baroque era. Sadly, Koechlin had hoped to hear the orchestrated version performed before he died (along with his late symphonic poem, "Le Buisson Ardent"--see below), but the piece wasn't premiered until 1973:










To add to these, Koechlin also orchestrated (1) his Sonatines Françaises for piano, Op. 63, (2) his Horn Sonata into the "Poéme for horn and orchestra, Op. 70bis, which is a beautiful work: 



, (3) his 20 Chansons Bretonnes for cello and piano into his 20 Chansons Bretonnes for cello and orchestra, Op. 115, (4) his two 1946 Clarinet Sonatas into his Sonatas for clarinet and chamber orchestra, Opp. 85bis & 86bis, and (5) his Ballade for solo piano into his Ballade for piano and orchestra, Op. 50: 



.

However, not all of Koechlin's important works are recycled orchestrations or chamber arrangements of his earlier works. His 2 Sonatines for oboe d'amore and chamber orchestra, Op. 194 from 1942-43, for instance, doesn't exist in an earlier version. & IMO, it's a masterwork that is well worth getting to know in the one recording that has been made to date by the combined groups, Ensemble Initium and Ensemble Contraste (although I prefer Ensemble Zurich's performance of the coupling on this CD, which is the chamber arrangement of "Paysages et Marines"): 



.

Koechlin composed a number of other interesting symphonic poems that are worth hearing, too:

Here are three (or four) of them, in recordings by Leif Segerstam:

--Le Buisson Ardent, Op. 203/Op. 171 (1933/45): 



--Au Loin (1900), Op. 20, no. 2, from Koechlin's 2 Pieces symphoniques, Op. 20, which is paired with En reve, Op. 20, no. 1. But I don't think "En Reve" has ever been recorded? It's too bad that Segerstam didn't record the two Op. 20 works together: 



--Sur les flots lointains, Op. 130: 




& here are links to four more Koechlin orchestral works, recorded by Heinz Holliger:

--Vers la voûte étoiléee, Op. 129 (1923/1933, rev. 1939): 



--Le Doctor Fabricius (1941-46): which is based on a novel by Koechlin's uncle, Charles Dollfus: 



--Chante funébre à la mémoire des jeunes femmes defuntes: 



--2 Poemes Symphoniques, Op. 43--no. 2: "Vers la Plage lointaine": 




There are also choral works by Koechlin that involve an orchestra, such as his Requiem des pauvres bougres for chorus, orchestra, piano, organ, and Ondes Martenot, Op. 161 (1936-37). But, to my knowledge, the orchestral version of his Requiem has never been recorded. I only know Koechlin's Requiem from a recording of the final choral movement in a version for solo organ: 




Given that Koechlin's teacher, Faure, composed a beautiful Requiem himself, it would be interesting to hear Koechlin's Requiem. It's also worth pointing out Koechlin's use of the Ondes Martenot in its orchestration. The Ondes Martenot was invented by Maurice Martenot in 1928, and it was an instrument that appears to have held a special interest for Koechlin. Not only does he use it in his Requiem, but he also uses it in his late symphonic poem, "Le Buisson Ardent", his "Vers le soleil" or 7 monodies for Ondes Martenot, Op. 174: 



, and his "L'album de Lilian", Book 2, for flute, piano, harpsichord, and Ondes Martenot, Op. 149: 



. So apparently, while Pierre Boulez was complaining that Koechlin's music wasn't modern enough for the times, Olivier Messiaen was taking note?, as Messiaen likewise developed an interest in composing for the Ondes Martenot. I wonder if Messiaen heard one of Koechlin works for the instrument?, and decided that it had the right sound for his Turangalila-Symphonie, where the Ondes Martenot figures prominently. Scholars often emphasize the influence of Claude Debussy on Messiaen's work, but to my mind, Koechlin's influence on Messiaen may be an even stronger one.

Yet despite the efforts of conductors Holliger, Segerstam, & others, it remains difficult to assess Koechlin's orchestral output. Apparently, he was a hugely prolific composer, and many of his works remain unrecorded. It's also difficult to assess some of the lesser known symphonic works that have only been recorded in very poor sound: such as, for instance, his symphonic poem, "Nuit de Walburgis classique", Op. 38: 



. As a result, I feel like I have a better grasp & understanding of Koechlin's chamber music, and his complete output for the solo piano than I do his orchestral and choral output.

P.S. Lastly, on the pronunciation of Koechlin's last name: it isn't "Kay-klin", since "ay" is a diphthong, but rather a shorter "é" sound as in "Ké-klan". I've found it a surprisingly difficult name to get a handle on myself, and it may help to listen to how the BBC radio announcer pronounces Koechlin's name on the spoken introduction to Silvestri's performance, linked above.

EDIT 2: Or better yet, here's a You Tube clip of a woman--a French Bollywood actress, with the same last name, speaking on how to pronounce her name at the opening of the clip: 



.

So, I got wrong. Evidently, "Koechlin" is pronounced "Kék-la" or "Kékla". Which, if correct (& I assume she knows how to pronounce her own last name), means that the BBC announcer got it wrong, too, since he pronounced the "n" at the end of Koechlin's name, which is apparently silent.


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## Josquin13

EDIT 3: I wanted to add that I've just now learned the French Bollywood actress that I linked to at the end of my last post, Kalki Koechlin, is a descendent of Koechlin's family!, and distantly related to the composer (& I think you can see a family resemblance in her physiognomy): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koechlin_family. Which of course gives full credence to how she pronounces her family name, as "Kék-la".


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## Art Rock

Well, here's one name I have been mispronouncing all my life. I thought it would have the German pronunciation, expecting it to derived from the Alsace (part of France which was German once, and where German is still spoken widely). It turns out that the family name indeed originally hails from the Alsace, but that by the time the composer was born (in Paris) it had acquired the pronunciation as described above.


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## mikeh375

Gotta say that I always read and appreciate Josquin13's posts.


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## Roger Knox

Josquin13 said:


> I expect some people will agree that Charles Koechlin is a neglected composer, or an acquired taste?, but there also seems to be some agreement that his works run the gamut in terms of quality, ranging from the strikingly original and highly imaginative, to the dull and ponderous, even routine. Over the past decade, I've become a fan of Koechlin's music, but sometimes I find that his music lasts longer than the sum of his best ideas. For instance, it's not uncommon for a Koechlin work to last 45-65 minutes. Yet, at other times I find myself entranced throughout the duration of a Koechlin piece, & am willing to accept its length as a necessary process for Koechlin to create a quiet, meditative, Zen-like experience for his listener: one that is intoxicating, somber, peaceful, mysterious, solitary, mystical, hazy and languid, but also occasionally mixed with a sense of nostalgia, forlornness, and regret. Conversely, his music can also be harrowing, eccentric, and agitated. There are times when Koechlin writes with a disarming simplicity, while at other times he composes complex, chromatic fugues and lush harmonies, which in his symphonic works can envelope the listener in a wall of orchestral sound.


Many thanks to josquin13 for this wonderful report on Charles Koechlin's orchestral music. Koechlin's catalogue is very confusing, and there are many gaps in his list of recorded of compositions. Josquin13 has laid it all out clearly, and you won't find better information or a better presentation anywhere. Really, we are blessed! Plus there are a number of important questions raised and I hope readers will respond with comments and questions. So, let's get listening, and bravo, Josquin13!


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## Roger Knox

Josquin13 said:


> I found out that conductor Franz André and the Orchestre National de la R.T. F. recorded the "Hymne à la Nuit" from the Symphonie d'Hymnes in 1960:
> 
> 
> 
> . So apparently, that's one movement from the symphony. Which has me now wondering if Koechlin's "Hymne au soleil" might be another movement?, which seems likely:
> 
> 
> 
> . But where's the rest?!.


Concerning Koechlin's _Symphonie d'Hymnes, (1936)_, Josquin13 mentions the two component movements that were recorded: the "Hymne à la Nuit," and the "Hymne au soleil". The following lists that I found on the Musicalics and IMSLP web sites correlate the five movements of the _Symphonie d"Hymnes_ with the five source works. Compare the opus numbers; the added "a" indicates revision:

Koechlin - Symphonie d'Hymnes (1936)

https://musicalics.com/en/composer/Charles-Koechlin/Symphonie-dHymnes

1. Hymne au soleil : Ut majeur - op.127 
2. Hymne au jour - op.110 
3. Hymne à la nuit - op. 48a 
4. Hymne à la jeunesse - op.148 
5. Hymne à la vie - op. 69a

Koechlin - Sources of Symphonie d'Hymnes

https://imslp.org/wiki/List_of_works_by_Charles_Koechlin

Op.127 - Hymne au soleil or "Fugal choral in C" for orchestra (Symphony of Hymns), Feb. 1933
Op.110 - Hymne au jour or Hymne for ondes Martenot and orchestra (from the Symphonie d'Hymnes), September 1929, orchestration 1932
Op.48 - L'Eté (symphonic poem in two parts), 1908-1911
Op.148 - Hymne à la jeunesse (symphonic poem based on the first chapter of André Gide's Voyage d'Urien) Symphony of hymns, September 1934, orchestration 1935
Op.69 - Hymne à la vie (orchestra and double choir), 1918-1919

The score for _Symphonie d'Hymnes_ exists.


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## mparta

I have recently made a stab at the Zinman Jungle Book, still don't get it.

Try again.


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## Roger Knox

mparta said:


> I have recently made a stab at the Zinman Jungle Book, still don't get it.
> 
> Try again.


Thanks, mparta -- having listened to it once, I haven't gotten into this work either.

Does one need to know Kipling's Jungle Books stories? Or is it the music itself?

I like some early, short, meditative Koechlin works: _Au Loin_, op. 20, no. 2 (In the Distance; 1900) and the nocturne _Vers la plage lointaine_, op. 43, no. 2 (Towards the Faraway Shore; 1916). Josquin13 also mentions symphonic poems _Vers la voûte étoilée_, Op. 129 (In the Starry Vault; 1923/1933, rev. 1939) and _Sur les flots lointains_, op. 130 (On the Distant Billowing Waves, 1933, based on a melody by C.M. Umer), which begins calmly but ends intensely. Some earlier orchestral works have not been recorded or are unavailable.


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## Roger Knox

Before returning to Joseph-Guy Ropartz and Albéric Magnard, here are some more facts and ideas about Charles Koechlin:

1. _Au loin_, mentioned in post #132 above, is orchestrated from Koechlin's work of the same title for English horn and piano (1896). In the original version, the players' expressiveness makes it sound more passionate and romantic than it is in the calm orchestral arrangement.
2. The title of _Sur les flots lointains_, is given in post #132 as "based on a melody by C.M. Umer." Catherine Umer was a student and later associate of Koechlin. My translation of "chant," as "melody," should be changed to "song." 
3. If looked at chronologically, Koechlin's diverse orchestral compositions make more sense. He was active as a composer for over sixty years, during which of course his style and that classical music changed. The compositions can be grouped chronologically (e.g. as in post #132), and cycles of compositions such as _Les heures persannes_ (The Persian Hours) should be noted.
4. To add to my comment about Koechlin's Jungle Books cycle: it is modernist, each symphonic poem is different, and my response to it has been much slower than to the other works discussed in post #132. Most of Koechlin's music was modernist (in his own way) from the 1920's to the end of his life.

And please spend some more time with josquin13's long post above. It really is worth it.


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## Gargamel

mparta said:


> There are a few recordings of Tournemire's symphonies, a set (not sure about completeness) from Moscow with Antonio de Almeida, then a couple of discs with symphonies 3-8. I have the most available one, which is of the 6th, and have listened and enjoyed but not closely enough to hold forth.
> 
> He wrote extensively for organ, and there's a fascinating series of recordings of L'Orgue Mystique, a huge set of pieces (14 discs?) which accompany the classical Roman liturgy. I'm particularly drawn to the versions (Sandro Mueller on Cybele) that have covers featuring the art by Eva Krause, but highly suggestive of Odilon Redon, a fascinating lithographer and "illustrator"--(I don't think he would like that) of classic 19th century symbolist works and poetry, Poe (they took him in as one of their own), Baudelaire, Mallarme, Flaubert (the Temptation of St. Anthony). So the interest in the music and the association with that thread of late 19th century decadent culture and literature seems to make for a heady mix, to say the least. The literary association with organ music and Catholicism and the French decadent movement has its pinnacle in A Rebours by Joris-Karl Huysmans. It is a nutty ride of a novel if ever there were one. And then on to Michel Houllebecq, whose central character in Soumission is a Huysmans scholar.
> 
> Waiting for the symphonies, when I listen, I'll mention.


Tournemire 5 could easily be mistaken for Max Reger, it's so imposing.


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## Roger Knox

Much has been written about the symphonies of *Joseph-Guy Ropartz* and *Albéric Magnard*; I hope to add something a bit different here. Comparing their Third Symphonies (1906 and 1896 respectively), we notice that Magnard's was completed ten years earlier than Ropartz's. It has the conventional four movements, as does Ropartz's. But the Ropartz features four soloists and chorus, with his own text. It opens with an impressive ascent from the low register, culminating in the choral statement, "Let us love each other." I sense a continuous melodic line running through the movement in which the text invokes sun, sea, forest and plain. Spectacular strings lead to a joyous coda. The Magnard begins with a slow Introduction where mysterious open fifths and fourths are followed a dialogue between thematic strings and chordal winds. A fast sonata-allegro form movement features an extensive development section with fugato and constant modulation. The Introduction's music, now including rushing strings, returns at the close. Ropartz's ABA form second movement begins slowly. It features each of the four soloists in turn deploring our inhumanity, followed by a procession-like fugue. The middle section is a fast, spiky scherzo. Magnard's second movement is the opposite, with the fast scherzo in the outer sections and with great energy towards the close.

Ropartz's major-key Adagio, for orchestra alone, excels in feeling and imaginative harmony. Its Finale begins with a march-like trumpet theme over tramping accompaniment. This minor-key movement is a seven-part rondo that ends impressively in the tonic major key with full brass chords - the chorus having called for compassion and an end to selfishness. Magnard's moving third movement is a Pastorale where a melancholy minor-key oboe solo begins, and modal inflections toward the end create a sublime effect. A bell-like ostinato recurs many times in the Finale, while sustained long notes below evolve into a solo brass melodic line of tremendous power.

What I like above all in both works in their sincere, open-hearted passion that avoids overwhelming blatancy and invites repeated hearings. Ropartz's harmony is more diatonic and modal - perhaps a Celtic influence from his native Britanny -- than Magnard's, a difference heard especially in the latter's first-movement chromaticism. There does not seem to be any aspect of musical style that is weak in either work, and there are far more beauties than could be mentioned in the skeletal paragraph above. Both composers were expert orchestrators and formidable contrapuntists. Lastly, the text to Ropartz's choral symphony was his plea to a France that was divided at the time over the Dreyfus Affair. That event had been taken up already by Magnard in his _Hymne à la Justice_, op. 14 (1902). There is a sense of purpose and optimism in the works of these two fast friends that shines through more than a hundred years after their creation.


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## Roger Knox

Gargamel said:


> Tournemire 5 could easily be mistaken for Max Reger, it's so imposing.


Thank you for your post, I find his symphonies imposing too.

mparta and I commented on Tournemire 7 in posts #85-92. I plan to write something on no. 6. Proceeding backward for some reason(?), the rest of the Tournemire symphoniesare open.

I haven't listened to no. 5 yet but if you or anyone else would expand on your comment please feel welcome. Posts don't need to be long either!


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## Roger Knox

Now we will compare the Fourth Symphonies of *Albéric Magnard (1913)* and *Joseph-Guy Ropartz (1908-11)*. The Magnard is a special work for many others as well as me. Completed in the year before his tragic death in World War I, it comes as both a summing up of his multi-faceted art and a leap forward in symphonic practice and powerful expression. It has the standard four movements, while the compact Ropartz is in three movements played without a break. In this work the second movement functions as a combined "scherzo" and slow movement, alternating between Allegretto and Adagio sections. The two works also follow different emotional trajectories. Magnard's in C# minor begins with a shocking rapid rising figure that to me suggests flames rising from the orchestra. From this crisis it continues with a lyrical theme, but rising motifs carry forward an aspirational suggestion. The movement flows beautifully and it includes a disjunct melody that will appear later on. The scherzo follows with a heavily accented motif. A solo fiddle, oboe, and plucked string instrument all suggest a rustic gathering. The opening movement of Ropartz's symphony in C major begins with an upward motif that is extended on each recurrence, giving a striving effect. But here it is in the development section that a sense of crisis emerges with an insistent two-note semitone call. Overall this symphony is more motif-based than Ropartz's Third. After the development section a long retransition over a sustained pedal note leads to the recapitulation, which opens with the earlier upward motif sounding triumphantly on the trumpet.

The slow movement of Magnard's Fourth is a thing of beauty -- serious, perhaps hymn-like, with chordal string passages that are slightly troubling at times. The texture changes in a tonally restless section with trilling accompaniment. A tremendous build-up climaxes triumphantly in E major, the relative of the work's key of C# minor, and then the ending is quiet. Wondering how Magnard could have anything left for the Finale, I listened in awe. Opening with a march rhythm, it gets busier until of all things a fugue breaks out, an exciting, extended one. Afterward comes the apotheosis. The disjunct first movement melody reappears in accordance with the cyclic principle, with a full orchestral chorale closing in the tonic major key. Ropartz's combined scherzo-slow movement is original. Of the Allegretto sections, the first is folk-like and the second contrapuntal, while the first lyrical Adagio contrasts with the later chromatic one that has Wagnerian overtones. The Finale opens in C minor; it is in ¾ time with a 2+2+2 cross-rhythm. Lovely wind solos in the major key are succeed by the opening minor-key theme, but the movement comes to rest in C major with a slow organ-like passage.

Magnard surpassed himself in his Fourth, yet Ropartz's Fourth has many attractions too. It is difficult to make generalizations about their similarities and differences. Perhaps the above descriptions will provide some clues. Concerning recordings, *josquin13's* recommendations for Ropartz's earlier symphonies also hold for these ones. As for Magnard, I was going to mention the recent Freiberg Philharmonic/Bollon set again. Nevertheless, after coming across a David Hurwitz rave about the magnificence of Magnard's Fourth I'll pass on his strong preference for the Malmo Symphony/Thomas Sanderling recording of the composer's nos. 2 and 4 on BIS (2000). Hurwitz goes on to say he and Sanderling agreed that Magnard 4 is a masterpiece. He thinks a major large orchestra should record it and that it should receive frequent performances. So I don't have to add anything except "Amen."


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## Roger Knox

Three important French composers were born in 1870 - Florent Schmitt, Charles Tournemire, and *Louis Vierne (1870-1937*). While Vierne is known mainly as a composer of organ music, his Symphony in A minor (1907-8) shows him to be a versatile creator with a definite concept of style. Where his fellow-organist Charles Tournemire is in his symphonies mystical and spacious, Vierne is formal and compact. In this four-movement late romantic symphony, the outer movements are in sonata-allegro form while the inner ones - Lamento and Scherzo - are ternary.

The first movement's Grave opening sets a tragic mood, a ponderous rhythm in the deep bass register alternating with a triadic variant. The Allegro that follows features an insistent and energetic motif in 6/8 time, after which things smooth out with the second theme and settle into the relative key of C major. I feel that the development and recapitulation overwork the insistent motif, with too much repetition and sequence in foursquare phrases. Vierne's music is harmonically and contrapuntally sophisticated, though. The following movement, marked Lamento, features a sighing motif and solos for the clarinet and English horn over nervous strings. The strings take up the main theme and in the middle section the tempo picks up leading to a crisis point.

The work is grouped into two parts; the second part begins with the scherzo third movement. There is a biting accent in the main string motif, which is answered by winds. The movement is stormy and it builds with the full orchestra in perpetual motion. Even in less relentless moments harmonies remain uneasy and a night mood prevails. But with the Finale the storm has passed. More optimistic themes resolve the previous anguish in the tonic A major key, and the work ends with a triumphant coda.


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## Roger Knox

*Déodat de Séverac (1872-1921)* came from the Languedoc region in southwestern France, and he drew inspiration from the region's music and other cultural traditions. He studied with top teachers in Paris and continued to live there, but in 1907 returned to his home region. He is a highly accomplished composer, particularly known for piano and vocal music. _Nymphes au crépuscule_ (Nymphs at Dusk, 1900) is one of several symphonic poems and other orchestral works by him. Its style is impressionist - with whole tone scales, augmented triads, parallel perfect intervals, brief motifs, and wordless women's chorus - and the work bears obvious resemblances to Debussy's Sirènes (the third movement of his _Nocturnes_ for orchestra [1899]). Which of the two works actually has priority is still under dispute as far as I can tell, but I have not investigated it further. In any case de Séverac's work is more forthright in expression than Debussy's -- the wordless chorus entering with a loud cry, for example -- and the mood is more urgent. It can be heard on YT, and the recording from which it is taken is available on Spotify: Déodat de Séverac: Works for Orchestra, Orchestre de la Suisse Romande/Roberto Benzi (RTS Radio Télévision Suisse/Evasion Music 2016).

Next up: *Charles Tournemire* 6 and countdown, *Jean Roger-Ducasse*, and *Reynaldo Hahn*.


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## Roger Knox

Particularly valuable to me is the Symphony No. 6 (1917-18) by *Charles Tournemire (1870-1939)*, dedicated "to the suffering of the French people during World War I." It is based on Biblical texts and is one of the great choral symphonies, also featuring soloists and an augmented orchestra with an important organ role. The work is in two parts, in each of which the composer demonstrates an ability to grow a section and build to climaxes over long time spans. The opening of the first part suggests anxiety and despair with a single-voice violin line that wanders, a sort of modal chant that has lost its way. Gradually voices are added, wind instruments enter, all becomes faster and louder with motifs derived from the opening line now in a polyphonic texture. Moving into the tonic major key, the harmony becomes richer and there is a huge brassy crescendo. The chorus enters, written so as not to be overwhelmed by the full orchestra, as a state of war is reached. There are new sections, eventually coalescing into a march.

The second part begins with a soloist as the voice of Jesus with organ accompaniment. Strings emerge in a low register, followed by the chorus and the music suggests a lugubrious tramp. Abruptly a great "scherzo" begins in a very fast triple meter with frequent 2 + 2 + 2 cross-rhythms. An upward reaching motif is featured in the strings while the music becomes more relaxed. Yet underneath the triple meter motion still bubbles away, leading up to the spectacular entry of the organ on a long sustained chord. I can't help being reminded of a similar point in the Saint-Saëns Third Symphony where a blazing C major sonority enters. But in the Tournemire there is a dominant seventh chord, with more to come. There is an affecting tenor solo, followed by the orchestra arpeggiating upwards, until the final climax with an association of salvation being attained at last.

It is sobering to realize that Tournemire never got to hear his Sixth, Seventh, and Eighth Symphonies, even though the last of them was completed fifteen years before his death. The composer was a devout Catholic and I think listeners can appreciate this composition in a number of different ways - dramatic, musical, historical, and religious. Currently available is this recording: Liège Philharmonic/Pierre Bartholomée (Naïve, 2001).


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## Roger Knox

The Symphony No. 5: _De la montagne_ (1914) in F minor by *Charles Tournemire (1870-1939)* contrasts greatly with its successor symphony. With three different "takes" on its Alpine setting, and religion here remaining in the background, the emphasis is on nature related to people. The work is also very different from Richard Strauss's contemporaneous Alpine Symphony. Rather than climbing and conquering a mountain, Tournemire contemplates in three sections grandeur and drama of a mountain, beauty and passion in an Alpine meadow, and gaiety and optimism as our vision is directed upward to the light. Part I, a _Choral varié_, is best approached by listening to the opening brass chorale several times. The following variations are based on motifs from it interwoven in various ways, and are mainly of a tragic character. Connected to Tournemire's genius in organ improvisation is the high quality and increasing interest of these variations, with wind solos deftly deployed, chromaticism slyly added in, and accents or sforzandos keeping things lively. The movement literally extinguishes near the end into fragments.

Part II has two sections. In the Pastorale, set in an Alpine meadow, I am struck by Touremire's original take on modal harmony, avoiding one predominant tonal center and working in expressive gestures characteristic of late romanticism. He does not just compose one more typically smooth pastorale for strings and winds. Rather there is a suggestion of unease, then a full storm erupts furiously, but ends abruptly. Now the music becomes more passionate, beautifully paced and with barely noticeable transitions. The natural setting becomes one of yearning and calm. _Vers la lumière_ is the final section, beginning with a light high-register dance in 6/8 meter featuring flutes that is soon contrasted with a heavy brass group. But the mood remains bright, with motifs bouncing back and forth, and syncopation ensuring that the rhythm stays alive. Declamation by French horns of a passage based on the whole tone scale is taken up by the other brass instruments, leading to a triumphant close in F major.


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## Roger Knox

*Charles Tournemire's* _Symphony No. 4: Pages symphoniques_ (1912) is on a more modest and casual scale than the ones discussed previously. There is an enigmatic quality to this composition that I haven't quite figured out. It is in one movement divided into five clearly separated sections, each having a different tempo. The first, _Assez lent_, opens with a two-note descending motif that is repeated at a higher pitch level. From this slim beginning emerge passionate chromatic passages, while a rich variety of modal harmonies align with Impressionism. _Avec du movement_ continues in that direction with whole-tone scale segments. In a lively 6/8 meter, it builds to a brass climax in which trombones come to the fore. Then, surprisingly, it peters out into fragments. _Modéré_ surprises with a series of bell strokes, and a lovely hymn-like organ passage ensues. The strings feature open fifths and parallelism, and they turn the bell's pitches into a comforting chord. This section is diatonic and lightly scored, almost like chamber music.

_Vif_ opens with sharply accented, detaché strings, frequently in syncopated time. From there the other components of the orchestra enter in a heavy 6/8 meter. The rhetoric of this movement is late romantic, with noble phrases but also an ironic touch. Silence separates the opening pitches of _Lent_, and a slinky chromatic motif enters in upward or downward versions on various instruments. From here we continue to a sweet passage for harp, horn and strings over an E major 6th chord. The tonal center wanders as the section draws to a close. Tournemire wrote this symphony on a visit to Britanny, inspired by the beautiful Breton seashore. Both this symphony and No. 5 are currently available on recordings by the Moscow Symphony/Almeida (Marco Polo, 1994).


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## Gargamel

Ah, Tournemire 6. I call that the "Nordic one". Wonder if he knew Leevi Madetoja who lived many years in France. (I'm especially thinking about Juha, the opera, not the suite which I loathe.)


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## Roger Knox

Gargamel said:


> Ah, Tournemire 6. I call that the "Nordic one". Wonder if he knew Leevi Madetoja who lived many years in France. (I'm especially thinking about Juha, the opera, not the suite which I loathe.)


I can't answer that one but it seems plausible.


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## Roger Knox

Most popular among *Charles Tournemire's* earlier symphonies seems to be_ Symphony No. 3: Moscow_ (1913). It arose from a trip to Moscow by Tournemire and is a religion-based tribute to the Russian people. An organum-like theme in the winds that becomes the basis for variations opens the first movement. The style remains chant-like and modal. Gradually the orchestration and harmony become more adventurous. The last two variations are a canon and a statement of the theme with florid flute ornamentation. The second movement - _Avec du mouvement_ - is a sort-of scherzo and a bit "light-headed" I would say, which according to an explanation by Andrew Hartman on MusicWeb-International suggests singing and dancing as the people move forward from pagan times. After an attractive passage for solo horn in the middle section, there is an uninhibited return of opening material, now in 6/8 time.

_Les Cloches de Moscou_ - the slow movement and my favorite, begins with an orchestral representation of dissonant high harmonics in bells and followed by actual bells. Russian bells are not tuned to pitches in the way that western bells are, producing an effect thought by some to be rougher. Eventually a chorale melody emerges and a four-note scale motif which was descending earlier now ascends. By the finale the people have attained Christianity. The music continues with bells and the scale motif in a somewhat faster tempo, followed by an idyllic, pastoral section and a long, sustained close over the D major tonic chord. Although my description may suggest a simplistic work, it is actually very effective.


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## Roger Knox

It may be time to take a little break from the Tournemire symphonies countdown; anyhow, here is something completely different. *Jean Roger-Ducasse (1873-1954)* was recommended early on for this thread by Rick Riekert, especially the _Sarabande pour les choeurs_. And now, finally, here we are! Roger-Ducasse's orchestral music is mainly of two types: (1) symphonic poems and other one-movement works, a majority of them impressionist in style; (2) suites and other light music, concise and expertly orchestrated. Most of his recorded music appears on Roger-Ducasse, Orchestral Works, Vols. 1 & 2 by the Rheinland-Pfalz Philharmonic/Leif Segerstam, SWR Digital (2015); earlier releases of these recordings on Marco Polo are also available. Of the symphonic poems I am particularly taken by _Nocturne de printemps_ (1920), a post-impressionist work that begins with a hushed string ostinato and woodwind birdcalls - you get the idea. Then there is the earlier _Au Jardin de Marguerite_ (1901-5) based on an episode in Goethe's _Faust_. This impressionist work is even closer to Debussy than the Nocturne, having the expected seventh and ninth chords, whole-tone scales and repeated phrases. It is very enjoyable given my tastes. _Sarabande pour les choeurs_ (1907), an atmospheric and darker symphonic poem with wordless chorus, unfortunately lacks a decent recording. An old version by the NBC Orchestra/Toscanini, also including other French works, was released by Urania in 1999 but the audio is very subpar. It's time for a new recording, perhaps along with other Roger-Ducasse orchestral works that are out of the catalogue.

There are also two short symphonic gems in the Segerstam collection: _Le Joli Jeu de furet - Scherzo_ (1909; _furet_ meaning "ferret"); and the impressionist _Prelude d'un ballet_. Roger-Ducasse's suites are light music in a distinctively French style; they include the romantic _Petite Suite_ (1897) and the more modern neo-classical _Suite française_ (1907). Not to be confused with the suite is the extended _Marche française_ (1914) that is more than a march, as World War I was more than a war. Finally, _Epithalame_ (1923) is an extended collage of wedding music, an experimental piece with frequent cross-cutting of passages in widely varying styles. Although I didn't find it convincing, the composition does adumbrate the style-mixing by composers over forty years later. Roger-Ducasse should not be judged only by his light music. He composed in a wide variety of genres including opera and was a professor at the Paris Conservatory for many years.

Up next: Tournemire countdown: Symphonies Nos. 2 and 1; *Reynaldo Hahn*: Violin and Piano Concertos; Tournemire: Symphony No. 8; Summary of "Composers born 1850-74."


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## Roger Knox

Upon listening to *Charles Tournemire's* Nos. 1 and 2, it struck me that he is a natural symphonist, comfortable with the large form and the orchestral medium. Nevertheless, in my opinion there are problems with these symphonies that make them less satisfactory than the subsequent ones. The three-movement Symphony No. 2: Ouessant (1909) is named after Brittany's striking Isle of Ouessant, which Tournemire loved. The first movement is ingenious but I find it too long (20 minutes). I must acknowledge that the composer varies its abrupt motif's mode and rhythm; inverts, stretches, or extends it by sequence; and adds counterpoint in a slow section, but in the end it seems overworked. Movement two - _très calme_ - begins with a diatonic melody in F minor. Contrasting sections and active counter-melodies are attractive. The third movement features brass in an impressive chorale, but the cyclic principle here means that the abrupt motif of movement one recurs. A final apotheosis brings the work to a close.

I prefer Tournemire's Symphony No. 1: "Romantic" (1901) to Symphony No. 2. The opening movement is lively, full of musical invention, and brilliantly orchestrated. The striking jagged theme of successive rising intervals creates expectancy. I find the movement's ending aggressive and unrestrained, though. Next is the Scherzo, featuring woodwinds that give it an outdoor feel. Cross-rhythms enliven the triple meter, and the repeated chord progression E major-B half-diminished adds a sprightly Spanish flavor. The Largo movement has the sense of a funeral march. The opening rhythmic pattern, with three triplet quarter notes followed by two regular quarter notes in common time, strikes me as Spanish also. The music becomes grand in character with an extended section for brass and timpani alone. Applying the cyclic process in the Finale, the jagged rising theme from the first movement re-enters, now in 6/8 time. So does the Spanish chord progression from the Scherzo. Approaching the close the symphony hurtles towards a wild ending. The profusion of material and uninhibited energy leaves me with an impression of disparate elements that do not quite coalesce. Perhaps that explains why Tournemire made his Second Symphony so rigorously structured. Anyway, his first two symphonies became an auspicious start to a unique symphonic career.


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## Roger Knox

Discovering the violin and piano concertos by *Reynaldo Hahn (1874-1947)* has been one of the pleasures of working on this thread. The Violin Concerto in D Major (1926-7) has a strange history - the score having disappeared after the premiere, and the next performance having occurred only in 1987! Hahn was a prodigy as both pianist and composer, and his style remained the one he established before 1900. Known now for over 100 _mélodies_, Hahn also did significant work in opera, incidental music, and chamber music that is now neglected. Nevertheless, the Violin Concerto has been well-received and is available in more than one recording package featuring soloist Denis Clavier with the Orchestre National de Lorraine/Fernand Quatrocchi. The first movement marked Décidé is replete with precision and wit in the manner of Massenet's orchestral suites. A _Chant d'amour_ is unique, evoking the city of Tunis with music in which time seems suspended, in part because of Hahn's ingenious avoidance of any sense of a bar-line. In the last movement, Clavier takes us on a perpetual motion adventure in which his secure and lively playing is irresistible.

Hahn's Piano Concerto (1930) I found notable first of all for its dedicatee, the outstanding Brazilian-French virtuoso *Magda Tagliaferro (1893-1986)*. The collaboration between composer and pianist strikes me as ideal, and her recording with Hahn conducting is still the one to beat if you like old piano recordings as I do. Her playing is colorful with plenty of temperament and the freedom to make the first movement sound like its title: Improvisation. Her light, fleet-fingered pianism is fully up to the work's great technical challenges. The brief second-movement scherzo is more modern harmonically, while both the first and last movements open with a sincere nostalgic sensibility that perhaps connects to Hahn's young years as a performing pianist. As for recordings other than Tagliaferro/Hahn, there is The Romantic Piano Concerto 15: Hahn and Massenet with Stephen Coombs, piano and the BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra/Ossonce (Hyperion, 1997). For both concertos there is Hahn: Concertos for Violin & Piano/Suite Hongroise including violinist Denis Clavier and pianist Angeline Pondrepeyre with the Orchestre National de Lorraine/Fernand Quatrocchi (Maguelone, 2001).


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## mparta

Roger Knox said:


> Upon listening to *Charles Tournemire's* Nos. 1 and 2, it struck me that he is a natural symphonist, comfortable with the large form and the orchestral medium. Nevertheless, in my opinion there are problems with these symphonies that make them less satisfactory than the subsequent ones. The three-movement Symphony No. 2: Ouessant (1909) is named after Brittany's striking Isle of Ouessant, which Tournemire loved. The first movement is ingenious but I find it too long (20 minutes). I must acknowledge that the composer varies its abrupt motif's mode and rhythm; inverts, stretches, or extends it by sequence; and adds counterpoint in a slow section, but in the end it seems overworked. Movement two - _très calme_ - begins with a diatonic melody in F minor. Contrasting sections and active counter-melodies are attractive. The third movement features brass in an impressive chorale, but the cyclic principle here means that the abrupt motif of movement one recurs. A final apotheosis brings the work to a close.
> 
> I prefer Tournemire's Symphony No. 1: "Romantic" (1901) to Symphony No. 2. The opening movement is lively, full of musical invention, and brilliantly orchestrated. The striking jagged theme of successive rising intervals creates expectancy. I find the movement's ending aggressive and unrestrained, though. Next is the Scherzo, featuring woodwinds that give it an outdoor feel. Cross-rhythms enliven the triple meter, and the repeated chord progression E major-B half-diminished adds a sprightly Spanish flavor. The Largo movement has the sense of a funeral march. The opening rhythmic pattern, with three triplet quarter notes followed by two regular quarter notes in common time, strikes me as Spanish also. The music becomes grand in character with an extended section for brass and timpani alone. Applying the cyclic process in the Finale, the jagged rising theme from the first movement re-enters, now in 6/8 time. So does the Spanish chord progression from the Scherzo. Approaching the close the symphony hurtles towards a wild ending. The profusion of material and uninhibited energy leaves me with an impression of disparate elements that do not quite coalesce. Perhaps that explains why Tournemire made his Second Symphony so rigorously structured. Anyway, his first two symphonies became an auspicious start to a unique symphonic career.


So I think the only recordings are from Moscow? That is true and what you're hearing? The performances are adequate? There had been some comparisons somewhere to the Belgian orchestra to the detriment of the Russians.


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## Roger Knox

mparta said:


> So I think the only recordings are from Moscow? That is true and what you're hearing? The performances are adequate? There had been some comparisons somewhere to the Belgian orchestra to the detriment of the Russians.


Thanks for your post -- I appreciate your interest! I've listened mostly on YT to the Moscow Symphony Orchestra/Alatmeida recordings now on Naxos. The exception is No. 6 which is only available by the Conservatoire Royale de Liège/Bartholomée. As far as I can determine they also recorded No. 3 and No. 7, and also No. 5 and No. 8, and are said to be better - more energetic - than the Moscow, though I haven't made the comparison. We really need new recordings to replace those of 1994 & 1995 vintage. We also need a top orchestra to take them on -- same with Ropartz, Magnard, & Koechlin.


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## CnC Bartok

I cannot add anything to your fine thoughts on the Magnard symphonies; all I can say is I adore the last two, especially the Fourth, and I do wish they would become proper repertoire items, rather than relative rarities (both on disc and in the concert hall).


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## Roger Knox

There is brief discussion of *Charles Tournemire's* Symphony No. 7 (1915-19) in posts #85-91. His Symphony No. 8: _Le triomphe de la mort_ (1924) stretches far from romanticism or impressionism. The composer's last symphony, it crosses into modernism in numerous ways. In Part 1, fragments assemble and disassemble into motifs including one that predominates: E-C#-F#-D#. Wind instruments rather than strings come to the fore, scoring is light, rhythm is syncopated and there are frequent ostinati, all of which remind me of Stravinsky and certain French composers of the 1920's. Tournemire has assimilated tonal materials of impressionism into his own particular style: the whole-tone scale and Lydian mode, augmented triad, and parallelism, especially at the fifth. And birdlike flutes remind me of Tournemire's strong connection to come with *Olivier Messiaen*.

In Part 2 there are extreme contrasts between sonorities with screeching piccolos followed by pianissimo string chords. The latter become thicker and more sustained in the work's most emotional passage, and then there is silence. In the final section celebratory bells and bell-like instrumental patterns, cheerful motifs, colorful glissandi and added brass suggest the celestial hereafter.

Please continue to add your thoughts and opinions. Tournemire is the last composer of the French orchestral composers born 1850-1874 that we will discuss. Watch for a brief summary of that group. After that I will make a few suggestions about composers born 1875-99 ...


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## Roger Knox

CnC Bartok said:


> I cannot add anything to your fine thoughts on the Magnard symphonies; all I can say is I adore the last two, especially the Fourth, and I do wish they would become proper repertoire items, rather than relative rarities (both on disc and in the concert hall).


Thank you for your comments. Doing this thread is a lot of work and, if the truth be known, I worry a lot about mistakes and misunderstandings. I hope when the pandemic settles down somebody somewhere will see Magnard as an inspiring figure as we do.


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## Roger Knox

*Conclusions About Composers Born 1850-1874:*

In view of this thread's title, and having listened to most of the composers' orchestral works (always including concertos and concertante pieces), here are my conclusions. "Unheralded" means "for orchestral music," and does not include the composer's other music.

Not unheralded, many compositions: *Debussy* 
Not unheralded, many compositions but few played: 
*D'Indy, Roussel* 
Not unheralded, few compositions: *Chausson, Chaminade, Dukas*

Unheralded, many compositions: *Pierné, Ropartz, Magnard, Koechlin, Schmitt, Tournemire*
Unheralded, few compositions: *Messager, G. Charpentier, Emmanuel, Vierne, Séverac, Roger-Ducasse, Hahn*

My personal favourites are: *Debussy, D'Indy, Chausson, Ropartz, Magnard, Koechlin, Schmitt, Emmanuel, Tournemire*


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## mparta

And now, just because I'm thinking about it.....

I have been trying to familiarize myself with more music by Florent Schmitt, since I like some of the piano music and particularly a transcription for piano and orchestra played by Vincent Larderet.

This runs into 2 issues, the musical one is the rather right-sided character, as in it has a Rhinelandish feel (but really, look at his teachers as listed, couldn't be more French). Still, there was a powerful internal debate about Wagnerism and Schmitt's orchestral works do land on the darker side. Many of the composers listed on this thread were dedicated Bretons, and Schmitt presents a flavor of Germanism, I think. Combined with his reprehensible politics (joining luminaries such as Alfred Cortot), I think it presents a matter for thought. It may not be relevant. But it might. It might fit into something bigger than the music, along the lines of "Never forget".


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## Roger Knox

mparta said:


> And now, just because I'm thinking about it.....
> 
> I have been trying to familiarize myself with more music by Florent Schmitt, since I like some of the piano music and particularly a transcription for piano and orchestra played by Vincent Larderet.
> 
> This runs into 2 issues, the musical one is the rather right-sided character, as in it has a Rhinelandish feel (but really, look at his teachers as listed, couldn't be more French). Still, there was a powerful internal debate about Wagnerism and Schmitt's orchestral works do land on the darker side. Many of the composers listed on this thread were dedicated Bretons, and Schmitt presents a flavor of Germanism, I think. Combined with his reprehensible politics (joining luminaries such as Alfred Cortot), I think it presents a matter for thought. It may not be relevant. But it might. It might fit into something bigger than the music, along the lines of "Never forget".


I think these are important issues and yes, there are problems with Florent Schmitt. Will get back to you soon.


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## Roger Knox

*Looking Forward *:
There will be a few more posts about composers we've considered up to now. Otherwise, I'm taking a 2-3 week break.

Our last generation of French orchestral composers will be those born between 1875-1899 whose music may be described as late romantic, post-romantic, or impressionist. Some of these moved into neoclassicism, for example *Maurice Ravel (1875-1937)*.* We won't be discussing him here -- he's certainly not unheralded!

The _*Les Six*_ group of composers** and *Jacques Ibert (1890-1962)* mostly wrote neoclassical music, but there may be discussion of some of their early works. Neoclassicism is one current of modernism.

Composers we may consider include *Louis Aubert, Jean Huré, Gustave Samazuilh, André Caplet, Philippe Gaubert, Joseph Canteloube, Jean Cras,* and others.
____________

*Examples of Ravel orchestral works: late romantic or "romantic-classic" (Pavane for a Dead Infant); impressionist (_Miroirs_); neoclassical (_Le tombeau de Couperin_).

** _*Les Six*_ composers: 
*Darius Milhaud (1892-1974)
Francis Poulenc (1899-1963)
Arthur Honegger (1892-1955)
Germaine Tailleferre (1892-1983
Georges Auric (1899-1983)
Louis Durey (1888-1979)*


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## Roger Knox

*Looking Forward (cont.'d.):*

I hope we will take the music and composers mentioned in the previous thread as seriously as we did the others. But it would be nice to lighten the work load and assume a more "summer-y" spirit from here on. If anyone has a particular interest they'd like to follow -- e.g. composer, type of work, region of France -- please let me know and we'll work it in. Generally speaking it isn't necessary to provide a lot of detail in posts -- in fact, a straightforward statement on how you experience the music is very valuable. I know there are counter-examples, but most classical music is composed with the intention of being taken seriously, and not subjected to arcane explanations or extreme distortions.


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## Roger Knox

mparta said:


> And now, just because I'm thinking about it.....
> 
> I have been trying to familiarize myself with more music by Florent Schmitt, since I like some of the piano music and particularly a transcription for piano and orchestra played by Vincent Larderet.
> 
> This runs into 2 issues ... Combined with his reprehensible politics (joining luminaries such as Alfred Cortot), I think it presents a matter for thought. It may not be relevant. But it might. It might fit into something bigger than the music, along the lines of "Never forget".


mparta, Concerning issue 2, I hold to what I wrote about Schmitt in post #106: "Nevertheless his reputation has been damaged by his troubling political views in the 1930's and collaboration with the pro-German Vichy government during World War II." Because of TC current policy on music and politics I'm not going further. There is plenty of information about Schmitt and politics of the 1930's and '40's on the internet. The web site "Music and the Holocaust" has information on some French composers of the time, but for Schmitt one has to go further realizing that some sources are biased. Also, personally I think that a composer of Schmitt's caliber is worth hearing, yet indeed agree with you "Never forget" -- what he collaborated with. (reply about issue 1 to come)


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## 89Koechel

Roger (and/or others, interested) - Are you aware that Schmitt has a website? ... simply "florentschmitt.com". A friend of mine contributes to it, regularly, and sends me emails about the composer's career and legacy.


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## 89Koechel

Roger - Also, thanks for including d'Indy. His output was variable, but his Symphony #2 is VERY-original, virtually one-of-a-kind. Undoubtedly, it's NEVER performed anymore, and has (I think) only two recordings. One is by the master - Monteux, which is probably the best.


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## Roger Knox

mparta said:


> This runs into 2 issues, the musical one is the rather right-sided character, as in it has a Rhinelandish feel (but really, look at his teachers as listed, couldn't be more French). Still, there was a powerful internal debate about Wagnerism and Schmitt's orchestral works do land on the darker side. Many of the composers listed on this thread were dedicated Bretons, and Schmitt presents a flavor of Germanism, I think.


mparta, Issue 1 is the Germanic quality of Florent Schmitt's music, how do we interpret that? I'm glad you separated that from issue 2, Schmitt's pro-German collaboration in World War 2. There are French late nineteenth century orchestral composers whose music has German, specifically Wagnerian qualities, but who were not fascist, anti-semitic, or German-supporting -- Chausson and Magnard come to mind.

Schmitt was born to ethnically German parents in the region of Lorraine, which as a result of the Franco-Prussian war became part of Germany along with Alsace in 1870, the year of Schmitt's birth. (By contrast, Charles Koechlin was also born in Lorraine but to French parents, who took off to the west and France immediately after the German acquisition.) Schmitt's advanced education in composition was with Massenet and Fauré at the Paris Consérvatoire -- both very French composers as you say. But Fauré had learned his Wagner well from Saint-Saens at the progressive Niedermeyer School in Paris. And he did not impose his own style on his students, so that an outstanding talent like Schmitt (who may have been influenced by German orchestral music in score-reading, performance, etc.) could have proceeded on his own path. As for landing on the darker side, there were in the late nineteenth century any number of composers from both France and Germany, not to mention poets, novelists, dramatists, painters, and thinkers who did too. You mention the pro- and anti-Wagner polemics in France, another factor. I'd never thought of Brittanny in northwest France being at an opposite pole from the Rhineland (Alsace-Lorraine, etc.) culturally, but of the French vs. German issue there is no doubt.

So all I can suggest re Schmitt's dark side are some possibilities: his temperament, the spirit of the time, sensationalism and competition, Nietszche, other ideas?


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## Roger Knox

89Koechel,

Yes I have seen the web site florentschmitt.com and it is excellent, possibly the best of its kind.

In the context of mparta's comments about Florent Schmitt's politics, I have not and will not endorse or criticize any web site or publication concerning that issue.


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## Roger Knox

89Koechel,

Thanks for your comment on D'Indy, a composer who should not be forgotten.


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## 89Koechel

(" ... who should not be forgotten.") ... even though we know he WILL be, no doubt. And, you're welcome, and all the best.


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## Roger Knox

89Koechel said:


> (" ... who should not be forgotten.") ... even though we know he WILL be, no doubt. And, you're welcome, and all the best.


OK but D'Indy is a master, ignoring him is a distortion of the course of music, not only in France.


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## Prodromides

89Koechel said:


> Roger - Also, thanks for including d'Indy. His output was variable, but his Symphony #2 is VERY-original, virtually one-of-a-kind. Undoubtedly, it's NEVER performed anymore, and has (I think) only two recordings. One is by the master - Monteux, which is probably the best.


Hi, 89Koechel.

This 1995 Koch CD resides in my music collection:










The early '90s (& late '80s) witnessed a flourishing climate for album productions showcasing infrequently (and sometimes never) performed compositions as well as off-the-beaten-path repertoire never hitherto available within the pre-1990 mediums of vinyl or shellac records.

Myself not having purchased much of any classical music albums since 2012, however, haven't been keeping up-to-date on releases over the past 10 years. There appear to be more than 2 recordings of d'Indy's Symphonie #2, such as on a Chandos series and a Naxos disc.

One might possibly have 4 versions of d'Indy's 2nd if one is so inclined to have them all.

Never say "NEVER".


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## Prodromides

Roger Knox said:


> OK but D'Indy is a master, ignoring him is a distortion of the course of music, not only in France.


Alas, Roger Knox, these past few years has pulled my mind (unwillingly) towards the impending extinction of the music we love.
Not only will d'Indy be forgotten, I fear. Myself & Mr. Knox will be deceased prior to year 2100, so we'll not personally witness the future effects of the current 'woke' cancel culture.

True, by ignoring d'Indy a portion of musical history receives distortion - but this is precisely what I think some of the young music-makers wish upon: the de-colonization of English/French/Western European dominance in music.

Forgotten entirely? Perhaps not. Attempts to transport d'Indy from the outer margins into standard programs, though, will, in & of itself, get marginalized.


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## Superflumina

Prodromides said:


> Alas, Roger Knox, these past few years has pulled my mind (unwillingly) towards the impending extinction of the music we love.
> Not only will d'Indy be forgotten, I fear. Myself & Mr. Knox will be deceased prior to year 2100, so we'll not personally witness the future effects of the current 'woke' cancel culture.


Please tell me this is satire.


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## Roger Knox

deleted ......................................


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## Roger Knox

In view of some recent changes in the Terms of Service, please don't get into political topics here, including current cultural politics.

I'm not a moderator, but having written the OP I am making the above request to posters. There is a moderated sub-forum "Politics and Religion in Classical Music."


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## mparta

Consistent with the foolishness of a life with too many CDs, I do have 3 D'Indy discs on Timpani, but no 2nd symphony

But I can always make it worse by saying that I don't recall listening to the 3 I have (chamber music, orchestral works, a symphony "Italienne"?)

I think my French mountain song symphony is on a disc with Franck in another room. Highly organized.

So, recommendations here, I will seek out the 2nd symphony and LISTEN to it.:cheers:

I did note today on the current listening that I heard the Tournemire 5th and 8th last evening, the performance from Liege, and the 8th had my attention immediately, because it has some of the same very idiosyncratic virtues as the much bigger 7th. Lovely, makes its mark, makes me want to listen again.


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## mparta

Lied like a dog. The second symphony is on the Monteux with the symphony on a french mountain air. And I still don't think I've heard it.

Things to do, places to go, people to see.:tiphat:


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## Roger Knox

mparta said:


> Lied like a dog. The second symphony is on the Monteux with the symphony on a french mountain air. And I still don't think I've heard it.


I'm hearing you, but also I'm kind of envious that you have the Monteaux recording of D'Indy's 2nd. It's the one everybody says is the best.


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## Roger Knox

Prodromides said:


> Alas, Roger Knox, these past few years has pulled my mind (unwillingly) towards the impending extinction of the music we love.
> Not only will d'Indy be forgotten, I fear. Myself & Mr. Knox will be deceased prior to year 2100, so we'll not personally witness the future effects of the current 'woke' cancel culture.
> 
> True, by ignoring d'Indy a portion of musical history receives distortion - but this is precisely what I think some of the young music-makers wish upon: the de-colonization of English/French/Western European dominance in music.
> 
> Forgotten entirely? Perhaps not. Attempts to transport d'Indy from the outer margins into standard programs, though, will, in & of itself, get marginalized.


I'm not so sure. Things change over time. Anyway, Prodromides, please don't despair, and stay with that which you value because others value it too.


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## Roger Knox

89Koechel said:


> (" ... who should not be forgotten.") ... even though we know he WILL be, no doubt. And, you're welcome, and all the best.


I don't know what will happen, but you know a lot and please stay with us.


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## mparta

No mention of the Chandos set with Rumon Gamba (sp)? I am not a Chandos sound fan, generally seem brightened and artificial, but there's a set of at least 5 discs encompassing the d'Indy orchestral music, maybe with an Iceland orchestra?

Anyone know these?

I'm listening to my San Francisco/Monteux right now. I bet that if I prowled in my Franck section I would find a repeat of the Mountain Song symphony with the Franck symphony and the overture to Beatrice and Benedict. Anyone know that, I can't wrap my head around what that would have been as an (2?) lp(s). Or surely Munch figures into this somehow, especially for French Mountain Song (Air is wrong because it has two meanings in English, one quite wrong for this). I know Munch recorded the piece with his niece, with whom he had a more than avuncular relationship I think.
There, that'll spice things up.










The San Francisco Monteux is volume 9 of the Monteux edition from RCA victor. Gold seal, not the red dog :lol:


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## Roger Knox

Referring back to *Looking Forward* - Post #157:

For once I'm running ahead of schedule and have completed my listening break in only 1-1/2 weeks! For the rest of this thread the focus is still on late romantic, post-romantic, and impressionist orchestral composers. Since post #157 *Henrietta Renié* (harpist), *Paul Ladmirault* (Breton composer) and *Lili Boulanger* are being added and a few others dropped. So far the music I've listened to by Les Six composers and Ibert has all been modernist -- and very good, but not for this thread (which I trust we will finish soon). Comments on TC have often emphasized the gap between the most heralded composers and the others. For this generation *Maurice Ravel* strikes me as being at another level altogether (super-heralded?), and would be so even if we included modernists like Milhaud, Poulenc, or Honegger. Please let me know what you think, and also of any thoughts you have about these composers born between 1875-1899 that we are discussing.


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## Prodromides

Are Milhaud, Ibert, Honegger, etc. modern?

I've considered the aesthetics of _Les Six_ to be neo-classical and sometimes jazzy, contrasting with pre-WWI romanticism, but not modern in the post-WWII/Darmstadt sense.

As Caplet is one of my favorite French composers, I hope he is still to be included in upcoming reviews.
Also, a composer born after 1899 could still be a Romantic. How would one assess Pierre-Octave Ferroud (1900 - 1936), as an example?


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## Roger Knox

Prodromides said:


> Are Milhaud, Ibert, Honegger, etc. modern?
> 
> I've considered the aesthetics of _Les Six_ to be neo-classical and sometimes jazzy, contrasting with pre-WWI romanticism, but not modern in the post-WWII/Darmstadt sense.
> 
> As Caplet is one of my favorite French composers, I hope he is still to be included in upcoming reviews.
> Also, a composer born after 1899 could still be a Romantic. How would one assess Pierre-Octave Ferroud (1900 - 1936), as an example?


Those are some good ideas! We coming up to the wonderful *Andre Caplet*. There are different definitions of modern and modernism in music, which makes things confusing, and I don't want to get into a discussion about modernism.

The way I learned it, musical landmarks around 1910 like Stravinsky's Rite of Spring, Schoenberg's Second String Quartet, last movement ("I feel the air of other planets"), and Bartok's _Allegro barbaro_ for piano initiate the new era. The _Les Six_ group brought in bitonality and pantonality (Milhaud) and the machine age (Honegger) among other things. Having listened to early chamber symphonies and symphonies by Milhaud and Honegger's Pacific 231 and First Symphony, I think they belong to the modern.

In this thread we're finishing with impressionism and postromanticism now and I'd like just to stick with that. Then we could continue in a new section on this thread, or start a new thread. If the First Symphony of *Pierre-Octave Ferroud* is any example, he certainly deserves more attention!


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## Roger Knox

French orchestral/concertante composers born 1875-99: romantic, post-romantic, impressionist

*1875*
Maurice Ravel (heralded)
Henrietta Renié
Max D'Ollone

*1877*
Louis Aubert
Jean Huré 
Gustave Samazeuilh
Paul Ladmirault

*1878*
André Caplet
Gabriel Dupont

*1879*
Philippe Gaubert
Jean Cras

*1881*
Paul Le Flem

*1893*
Lili Boulanger


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## 89Koechel

Prodromides - (other recordings of d'Indy's 2nd) - GREAT! I KNEW there was, at least, one, other recording - how is the interpretation? Also, very fine to know of two others (Chandos & Naxos) - any details? ... and thanks.


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## 89Koechel

mparta - Great, that you have the Monteux, on RCA. This has long been THE d'Indy 2nd, to have. My friend in England, Paul Terry (www.historic-recordings.co.uk) had a reissue of the same, but it was RE-PITCHED, and he sent me a download. I've recorded it, and will try to figure out if the re-pitch is UP or DOWN. I don't know if anyone has noticed the difference between the RCA, and Paul's reissue ... and a slight re-pitch is probably hardly noticeable, albeit somewhat important, I would think. Anyway, thanks.


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## Prodromides

89Koechel said:


> Prodromides - (other recordings of d'Indy's 2nd) - GREAT! I KNEW there was, at least, one, other recording - how is the interpretation? Also, very fine to know of two others (Chandos & Naxos) - any details? ... and thanks.


The Chandos website offers sound samples on the Naxos album (https://www.chandos.net/products/catalogue/NX 3522) as well as their own volume (https://www.chandos.net/products/catalogue/CHAN 10514).

Honestly, I am satisfied enough with the Monte Carlo on the Koch CD that I'm not hunting for multiple interpretations.
The Chandos edition has less duplication. Chandos offers items such as "Karadec" as disc companion pieces instead of another version of "Souvenirs".


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## 89Koechel

Sounds fine, Prodromides, and thanks! ... for the links. I think I saw a review of the Chandos, long ago. To be honest, I think the Monteux is the one to HAVE, as he was almost-always so-proficient and so-memorable, in his interpretations of French music ... or Rite of Spring, or Brahms, or "what have you", if you know what I mean.


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## Prodromides

Roger Knox said:


> *1893*
> Lili Boulanger


Would Mr. Knox consider Jean Rivier and/or Jean Wiener (both born in 1896)?

or ... Désiré-Émile Inghelbrecht (1880 - 1965)?


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## Prodromides

Roger Knox said:


> *1875*
> Maurice Ravel (heralded)
> Henrietta Renié
> Max D'Ollone


Perhaps Marcel Labey (1875-1968), too?


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## Roger Knox

Prodromides said:


> Would Mr. Knox consider Jean Rivier and/or Jean Wiener (both born in 1896)?
> 
> or ... Désiré-Émile Inghelbrecht (1880 - 1965)?


Please post on any French composer of orchestral or concerto/concertante music that you think belongs on this thread.

As for Mr. Wiener, just wondering if were you reading the thread "An Evening with Jean Wiener" on the sub-forum "Percussion and Other Instruments" recently?


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## mparta

Roger Knox said:


> French orchestral/concertante composers born 1875-99: romantic, post-romantic, impressionist
> 
> *1875*
> Maurice Ravel (heralded)
> Henrietta Renié
> Max D'Ollone
> 
> *1877*
> Louis Aubert
> Jean Huré
> Gustave Samazeuilh
> Paul Ladmirault
> 
> *1878*
> André Caplet
> Gabriel Dupont
> 
> *1879*
> Philippe Gaubert
> Jean Cras
> 
> *1881*
> Paul Le Flem
> 
> *1893*
> Lili Boulanger


Mostly due to Timpani, I know a bit of:
Hure -- very good chamber music disc. Very good.
I have seen discs of Ladmirault
I have songs of Caplet and the Mirror of Jesus, or whatever it's called, interesting.
Gaubert, yep, discs here, can't recall anything
Jean Cras. Quite a bit, including Polypheme and some chamber music I think. I think I remember liking what I heard.
le Flem-- 3 Timpani discs with a symphony and some orchestral works and chamber music. The chamber music holds my attention. There's a symphony on Naxos that is repackaged from somewhere else and the performance is subpar so I don't have a feel for it, but I also have a 4th symphony on the Forgotten Music label that is waiting to spin.

And lili boulanger has several recordings of choral music at least to her credit, which I can't say I remember anything about.

So that's just pitiful, it's liking remembering the mnemonic but not what it stands for :lol:

Perhaps this thread will spur me on to more virtuous behavior.


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## Prodromides

Roger Knox said:


> We coming up to the wonderful *Andre Caplet*.


With Debussy & Schmitt already highlighted, and Caplet forthcoming, I depost this EMI album (which I expext TC members are already familiar with): French orchestral Poe!










In the times before the French admired Jerry Lewis, they admired Edgar Allan Poe. 
Appears as though the French loved American short story fiction set in the 1800s; film director Robert Enrico made a short on Ambrose Bierce's "An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge" (which was broadcast on U.S. television within the original run of THE TWILIGHT ZONE).

This Caplet work, by the way, has an alternate title of "conte fantastique".


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## Roger Knox

Prodromides said:


> With Debussy & Schmitt already highlighted, and Caplet forthcoming, I depost this EMI album (which I expext TC members are already familiar with): French orchestral Poe!
> 
> In the times before the French admired Jerry Lewis, they admired Edgar Allan Poe.
> Appears as though the French loved American short story fiction set in the 1800s; film director Robert Enrico made a short on Ambrose Bierce's "An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge" (which was broadcast on U.S. television within the original run of THE TWILIGHT ZONE).
> 
> This Caplet work, by the way, has an alternate title of "conte fantastique".


Thanks for bringing the album to my attention. Recording these works together based on the Poe connection is a good concept. Baudelaire's translation of Poe's tales is what led to their appreciation by the French. If Baudelaire is seen as the first symbolist poet, then that is a link to Debussy, who maintained he was close to symbolism, not to impressionism. (Debussy set the poetry of Baudelaire, Verlaine, and Mallarmé.) While Poe's works can be understood as horror stories, I think they also may be warnings against letting aesthetic values take precedence over human needs, always with disastrous consequences.


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## Roger Knox

Prodromides said:


> As Caplet is one of my favorite French composers, I hope he is still to be included in upcoming reviews.


*André Caplet (1878-1925)* composed three great concertante works:

- _Masque of the Red Death_ - _conte fantastique_ for harp and string orchestra (pub. 1924)
- _Légende_ - symphonic poem for saxophone and string orchestra (1904)
- _Epiphanie_ - _fresque musicale_ for cello and orchestra (1923)

Of course he is best known for fine orchestrations of Debussy's music, such as the _Suite Bergamasque_ that includes _Clair de lune_. But I think the above three original works each deserve comments -- so for anyone who wishes to, please join in. They are original, use up-to-date instrumental techniques, and show Caplet's musical personality to be much different than Debussy's.


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## Roger Knox

mparta said:


> Mostly due to Timpani, I know a bit of:
> Hure -- very good chamber music disc. Very good.
> I have seen discs of Ladmirault
> I have songs of Caplet and the Mirror of Jesus, or whatever it's called, interesting.
> Gaubert, yep, discs here, can't recall anything
> Jean Cras. Quite a bit, including Polypheme and some chamber music I think. I think I remember liking what I heard.
> le Flem-- 3 Timpani discs with a symphony and some orchestral works and chamber music. The chamber music holds my attention. There's a symphony on Naxos that is repackaged from somewhere else and the performance is subpar so I don't have a feel for it, but I also have a 4th symphony on the Forgotten Music label that is waiting to spin.
> 
> And lili boulanger has several recordings of choral music at least to her credit, which I can't say I remember anything about.
> 
> So that's just pitiful, it's liking remembering the mnemonic but not what it stands for :lol:
> 
> Perhaps this thread will spur me on to more virtuous behavior.


A lot of people don't know these composers at all, so please don't be hard on yourself!


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## Roger Knox

*André Caplet* began working on _The Masque of the Red Death_ in 1909 but it was not published till 1924. There are both chamber and string orchestra versions of this concertante work, with its remarkable solo harp part. Mysterious, nasty at times, I wonder if the harp is itself the Red Death (actually the Black Plague of medieval times). Beginning unobtrusively in the bass, it emerges over tremolo strings with a huge loud and rapid glissando that is quickly damped, like the crack of a whip. In the allegro section both harp and string passages are broken off suddenly. Of melody there is no such thing, but rather uneasy dialogue between harp and strings, that latter having colouristic smears, artificial harmonics and _sul ponticello_ effects at various times. Although harmony is typically impressionist, the overall nervous excitement points in a modernist direction. But Caplet died in 1925, before reaching his full potential.

For the recording I heard see post #190. Otherwise, there are more recordings of the chamber version than of the orchestral, but in this piece I much prefer the full string ensemble sound.


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## Roger Knox

In *André Caplet's* _Légende_ for alto saxophone and orchestra (1903, orchestrated 1904), there is a pensive and ambiguous introduction, followed by the saxophone's entry -- a descending fifth. I like to think of it as evoking the clarinet opening of Schubert's Unfinished Symphony. Also the descending fifth is a traditional horn call (e.g. the beginning of Bruckner's Fourth "Romantic" Symphony) -- is this opening a salute to the combination of wind and brass instruments that is the saxophone? Maybe that is just _my_ legend ... Anyway, the complete melody is in E major and it turns out to be the basis of a compositional tour de force -- developed and varied, intervals contracted and rhythms stretched in an extended _agitato_ section that opens in C# minor. Calm eventually emerges towards the return of the introduction, and then of the main theme. Both the saxophone writing and surrounding orchestration show the mature accomplishment of the composer at the age of 26.

Although I don't see the recording I heard by Arno Bornkamp and the Camerata Amsterdam listed, there is one in the catalogue by the Deutsche Staatsphilharmonie Rheinland-Pfalz/Leif Segerstam (SWR Digital, 2015).


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## Prodromides

Roger Knox said:


> Of melody there is no such thing, but rather uneasy dialogue between harp and strings, that latter having colouristic smears, artificial harmonics and _sul ponticello_ effects at various times.


Note, also, that this opus has the solo harpist knocking on the harp's frame to depict Death wrapping on the door to claim the lives of the masque's dancers within.
If this piece was written in 1961, then I would not be surprised. Remarkable to me, though, that Caplet wrote for such an effect so early in the 20th century.


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## Prodromides

Roger Knox said:


> Although I don't see the recording I heard by Arno Bornkamp and the Camerata Amsterdam listed, there is one in the catalogue by the Deutsche Staatsphilharmonie Rheinland-Pfalz/Leif Segerstam (SWR Digital, 2015).


Mr. Knox may well appreciate the supplements below.

*SNE-555-CD* - a disc from 1990 which contains what it claims as being the "world premiere recording" of Caplet's _Légende_ (in its ensemble version)










https://cmccanada.org/shop/cd-sne-555/ (still available via Canadian Music Centre) not far from Mr. Knox, eh? [20 St. Joseph Street, Toronto ON M4Y 1J9 Canada]

*Cybelia CY 843* from 1988(?); version for orchestra without soloist.

https://www.muziekweb.nl/en/Link/AFX0395/Musique-Française



















... which was re-issued onto a Marco Polo CD.


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## Prodromides

Roger Knox said:


> - _Epiphanie_ - _fresque musicale_ for cello and orchestra (1923)


The disc I have on Caplet's _Épiphanie_ is this EMI from 2002 (other recordings abound)


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## Roger Knox

*Andre Caplet's* _Épiphanie_ for cello and orchestra (1923) is described as a "musical fresco" based on an Ethiopian legend. It opens mysteriously in a remarkable passage with winds, high strings and harmonics. The solo cello enters tentatively, establishing a tempo around which the instruments coalesce; this is the cortège (procession) of the first movement's title. The cello part becomes more animated and complex with syncopation, while the brass emerges to lead with sharp interjections from other instruments. The second movement is a gripping cadenza for solo cello, virtuosic and up-to-date in technical demands and harmonic language. The finale is a dance in 5/4 time where the cello builds excitement with variants on a few basic motifs. My impression is the Caplet has moved into modernism as did many of his colleagues in the 1920's, and this work completes his set of three outstanding concertante compositions featuring in turn the harp, the saxophone, and the cello.


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## Roger Knox

Prodromides said:


> Note, also, that this opus has the solo harpist knocking on the harp's frame to depict Death wrapping on the door to claim the lives of the masque's dancers within.
> If this piece was written in 1961, then I would not be surprised. Remarkable to me, though, that Caplet wrote for such an effect so early in the 20th century.


Yes, thank you for this! The knocks come between movements and are appearances of the Red Death personage. Because it was French harpist/pianist/composer *Carlos Salzedo (1885-1961)* in Paris who introduced his new method of playing the harp that included this effect and many others, I assume he is where Caplet got it from. And it scares me still ...

I also agree with you about sounding like 1961 -- Salzedo's new techniques and their notation found their way into many avant-garde scores. Today some fine harpists adhere to Salzedo's method overall while others uphold the late romantic style of *Henriette Renié* and *Marcel Grandjany*, and others have combinations -- and for any more information consult a harpist ...


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## Roger Knox

Prodromides said:


> The disc I have on Caplet's _Épiphanie_ is this EMI from 2002 (other recordings abound)


Thank you for the information on recordings. I gather the Segerstam-conducted recording on Marco Polo was re-released again on SWR Digital in 2015.

It's great to have TC members who are so knowledgeable about recordings -- I could never keep with them.


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## Roger Knox

In reference to French harpist/composer *Carlos Salzedo*, let's note that he wrote many successful works for harp, including two for harp and orchestra: a concertante tone poem _The Enchanted Isle_ (1918) and the Second Concerto for Harp and Orchestra (1953-61), as well as the Concerto for Harp and Seven Wind Instruments (1926). None of them is currently available on record, although _The Enchanted Isle_ can be heard in its harp and piano version. It is an attractive impressionist work that deserves an orchestral recording.


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## Roger Knox

And we can compare *Henriette Renié's (1875-1956)* Concerto for Harp and Orchestra (1901), which maintains the late romantic French harp tradition that Salzedo did not follow.

Beginning in C minor, the Allegro is in a determined ¾ meter, and the opening's insistent motif with a second beat accent dominates. In the intimate Adagio a simple harp melody is taken up by ethereal strings, then winds. Increasing interaction between soloist and orchestra leads the movement to a passionate climax. The third movement is a busy, light-footed scherzo. Its trio is in sarabande time; with the accent on the second beat of the measure we hear a connection with the first movement's lead motif. The Finale opens with a solo harp flourish and continues in the spirit of its _con fuoco_ marking.

Throughout the work the harp writing is varied and challenging, harmony and modulation maintain our interest, and the sense of balance between harp and orchestra is preserved. Both Xavier de Maistre with the Rhineland Philharmonic Orchestra/Shao Chia Lu on Claves (2002), and Emmanuel Ceysson with the Orchestre Régional Avignon Provence/Samuel Jean on Naïve (2015), can be recommended.


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## Roger Knox

At first I thought that the orchestral works of *Louis Aubert (1877-1968)* tended to wander, but after several patient hearings I've changed my views. Aubert was a Breton composer, a child prodigy who studied with Fauré. It is _Le tombeau de Chateaubriand_ (The Tomb of Chateaubriand; 1948) that is particularly valuable. The influential writer François-René de Chateaubriand (1768-1848), who inspired many romantic-era artists, was also from Brittany and this work commemorates the 100th anniversary of his death. His tomb is on an island near St.-Malo and this work magnificently evokes the "ocean-scape" (perhaps also suggesting the stormy passion behind the author's writings?). Wild dynamic contrasts, eerie high-register effects, and blazing brass chords that are connected by voice-leading but unpredictable in harmonic direction create a memorable listening experience. _Le tombeau_ is cinematic while avoiding Hollywood formulas.

_Offrande aux victimes de la guerre_ (Offering to the Victims of the War; 1947) is comparable in expression to _Le tombeau_ though more restrained, and conventional at the ending. An English horn solo towards the close is particularly beautiful. The much earlier _Dryade_ (1921), evoking the wood nymphs of Greek myth, shows an earlier phase of Aubert's orchestral style. After a solemn introduction, fast figuration leads to a rapid section that evolves into a march before returning to the opening mood.

The composer's lighter orchestral music includes the notable _Habanera_ (1919), and the symphonic suite _Feuilles d'images_ (1931) - attractive orchestrations of Aubert's own piano pieces. _Cinéma_ (1952) is a set of portraits of Hollywood movie stars (reminding us of Koechlin's Seven Stars Symphony). Except for _Habanera_, these works are included on an all-Aubert CD originally recorded on Marco Polo (1989) by the Rheinland-Pfalz State Philharmonic Orchestra/Leif Segerstam, SRW Music (2015); both versions are still available. _Habanera_ can be found on YT, from a re-release of conductor Charles Munch's complete orchestral recordings.

Next up: two more Breton composers: *Paul Ladmirault* and *Jean Huré*.


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## Roger Knox

mparta said:


> Mostly due to Timpani, I know a bit of:
> ...
> le Flem-- 3 Timpani discs with a symphony and some orchestral works and chamber music. The chamber music holds my attention. There's a symphony on Naxos that is repackaged from somewhere else and the performance is subpar so I don't have a feel for it, but I also have a 4th symphony on the Forgotten Music label that is waiting to spin. ...


mparta, It seems like you really kept up with quite a few of the Timpani discs. Do you have any comments to make on Paul Le Flem's 4th symphony, or other orchestra music by him? What I've heard seems very good. I'll write about the 1st symphony at least. Over his very long life he covered quite a bit of ground, neo-classical and even atonal I think


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## Roger Knox

Concerning the composers born in Brittany during the nineteenth-century, who made up a substantial complement in France, I still particularly value Joseph-Guy Ropartz (b. 1864) as a composer and also in his other roles. It is important not to make assumptions about Brittany-born composers -- musical style, cultural attitudes, political positions. Of those born between 1875-99, I have listened to music of Aubert, Ladmirault, Huré, Cras, and Le Flem so far.


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## mparta

Roger Knox said:


> mparta, It seems like you really kept up with quite a few of the Timpani discs. Do you have any comments to make on Paul Le Flem's 4th symphony, or other orchestra music by him? What I've heard seems very good. I'll write about the 1st symphony at least. Over his very long life he covered quite a bit of ground, neo-classical and even atonal I think


The Le Flem 4th is by Lockhart and I got confused. The performance is not up to snuff, I don't think the music gets a fair hearing. It's the 2nd symphony that is available on something called Forgotten Records, with Caplet Epiphanies by the way, considering the recent posts. And i still haven't managed to hear it. Ernst Bour conducts, by the way, and I think he is a serious artist, much respected in his day.
I think that leaves the 3rd with a recording that i think I only see on YouTube, conducted by Georges Tzipine. I don't know where to find the actual disc. YouTube references "collection CB or collection CB2". Have to figure that out.
The Le Flem that i like very much is the Timpani disc with a wonderful violin sonata and piano quintet.


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## Roger Knox

mparta said:


> I think that leaves the 3rd with a recording that i think I only see on YouTube, conducted by Georges Tzipine. I don't know where to find the actual disc. YouTube references "collection CB or collection CB2". Have to figure that out.
> The Le Flem that i like very much is the Timpani disc with a wonderful violin sonata and piano quintet.


Thanks mparta for adding this information on recordings of Le Flem's symphonies. Collection CB and CB2 refer to uploads by Correntin Boissier, a French composer and pianist who champions romanticism and unheralded works from the 19th to 21st centuries. They are instantly recognizable on YouTube by the blue background.

Frequently, discussion of unheralded orchestral composers here leads to interest in chamber music by the same composers. Also, I've noticed how often composers wrote a piano quintet (or quartet) near the beginning of their careers. In that form they could be played by very good performers in a private setting. I'm guessing that may have been a "tryout" for symphony-composing in some cases.


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## Roger Knox

*Paul Ladmirault (1877-1944)* was a Breton composer born in the same year as Louis Aubert. Ladmirault was active in the Breton nationalist movement. The two compositions mentioned here have immediate appeal, and are sophisticated as well, rewarding repeated hearings. The symphonic poem _Brocéliande au matin_ (1909) abounds in suggestions of rich foliage and aviary life. (Brocéliande is the mysterious Breton forest). Bountiful instrumental ornamentation within full textures gives this work a distinctive flavor. _Valse triste for Piano and Orchestra_ (1933) is extended and has more than meets the eye. For one thing, the opening motif A ↑ F E D# is that of the Prelude to Tristan and Isolde, with altered rhythm. _Valse triste_ ends in B-minor; the opera's Liebestod ends in B major. Whether these are simply quotes or something more, I don't know.


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## Roger Knox

*Jean Huré (1877- 1930)* was another Breton composer born in the same year as Louis Aubert. He held a number of important positions as a church organist in Paris. Of his orchestral music, which included three symphonies, little is available now. I particularly like his melodic, atmospheric Conzertstuck for Saxophone and Orchestra. It is recorded by Jean-Pierre Schmitt, saxophone, with the Orchestre Pasdeloup/Javier Oviedo on The Classical Saxophone: A French Love Story, MSR Classics (2008).


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## Roger Knox

Prodromides said:


> Would Mr. Knox consider Jean Rivier and/or Jean Wiener (both born in 1896)?
> 
> or ... Désiré-Émile Inghelbrecht (1880 - 1965)?


Again, you're welcome to post on any of them:

Jean Rivier -- my initial reaction to Rivier's First Symphony was "modernist: neoclassical branch" and I don't want to go through his numerous works for this particular thread. If you think certain works belong here please post on them or direct me to them.

Jean Wiener -- his Bach-parodying Accordion Concerto is the funniest piece I've heard in a long time -- dry humour, built-in performer "mistakes," composition "errors," hilarious. But he was mainly a very prolific film composer. If you or anyone else thinks this thread needs some humour as we approach the end of the era this could be the piece, in a "And Now For Something Completely Different" sense.

Désiré-Émile Ingelbrecht -- yes I think his Sinfonia breve de camera is very good, and the pieces in Nursery Suite No. 1 are piquant. I've taken notes and will post.


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## Roger Knox

Prodromides said:


> Perhaps Marcel Labey (1875-1968), too?


I hadn't heard of him and haven't found any of his music to listen to.


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## Roger Knox

*Gabriel Dupont (1878-1914)* is one of those composers who leave you wondering what might have been had fate not intervened. Already seen as a major figure early in his adulthood, it was tuberculosis that drastically shortened his career and life. He composed much vocal music including four operas, while his purely orchestral output was small. Fortunately we now have the excellent recording Gabriel Dupont: Complete Symphonic Works; Orchestra Philharmonique Royal de Liège/Patrick Davin; Fuga Libera (2019).

_Jour d'été_ (1900) is a three-movement symphonic sketch where the mood is light as we move through the summer day. It opens with the bouncy _Matinee ensoleillée_ in cheerful 6/8 time, with rapid upward scales in the flute and piccolo suggesting shafts of light. _Sous-bois_ is an idyllic respite in the woodlands. It is characterized by lyrical phrases for the woodwinds and smooth strings, while a longer solo for violin carries the music to a more intimate level. And then we are surprised by _Nocturne_, a fast minor-key tarantella-like tour de force of orchestral writing with what seem like swarming insects and other menacing events. Distant horn calls interrupt the busy night, but the action soon returns. Finally, there is a "turn to safety" in the major mode as the movement closes.

(To be continued, with Dupont's _Le chant de la destinée_ and the orchestral version of _Les Heures dolentes_)


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## Roger Knox

(continuing from Post #213 with the other two orchestral works from the same recording)

*Warning*: _the two later compositions by Gabriel Dupont and the discussion of them here may be upsetting and triggering for readers dealing with disease or disease-related issues, including from the COVID-19 crisis._

By the time Dupont composed _Les Heures dolentes_ (1903-5) and orchestrated four of its pieces, he had experienced a major tuberculosis attack and subsequent recuperation. Dupont was a composer of late-romantic, passionate music. Just as he captured a sense of joy in _Jour d'été_, here he expresses harrowing feelings from his convalescence. I knew this work first as a long set of 14 piano pieces. What has changed with orchestration is the magnitude of highs and lows, louds and softs, and of course variety of tone colours.

_Epigraphe - La mort rôde_ (Death Lurks) and _Nuit blanche: Hallucinations_ are the most powerful pieces. The first opens the work _Les Heures dolentes_. Low strings are followed by a harp ostinato that becomes insistent; then the strings alternate with aggressive low brass ("death lurking"). Later things become eerie, with an irregular syncopated beat and an ongoing pianissimo two-note pattern in the high strings. The piece ends with the English horn soloing over an orchestral ground bass, traditionally associated with mourning. The closing _Nuit blanche: Hallucinations_ begins with ominous open fifths and octaves. There is a march-like build-up; each wave crescendos to a peak and then falls back in a dramatic manner. Full brass, loud timpani and a fast repeated-note wind chorus announce a crisis. All is brought to an end with a chorale-like passage and the suggestion of expiring heartbeats.

By contrast _Le soir tombe dans la chambre_ (Evening Falls in the Room) opens with the flute; rich strings and winds are soon added. An oboe solo with bass clarinet counterpoint, followed by a telling passage of solo violin over strings continue a trend of downward scales and a longer-range downward succession until night has arrived. _Des enfants jouent dans le jardin_ begins in 6/8 time with a catchy tune, that later alternates with a march-like passage in common time but rhythmically complex. Such is the carefree, non-rigid progression of children's play. Some especially reedy low winds and a flutter-tongued raspy horn add contrast in the middle section; the melody returns with trumpet and flute providing an upbeat ending.

In the symphonic poem _Le chant de la destinée_ (The Song of Destiny; 1907) the "song" is long, wide-intervalled and declamatory, delivered by trumpet with supporting brass and winds. The strings play a secondary role initially, answering with a figure that fills in rhythmically. Later a more chant-like stepwise melody enters in the high strings. As a symphonic poem this work has more formal twists and turns than the Dupont pieces discussed previously. The composer's heart-on-sleeve romanticism is still present, but impressionist elements are prominent too - open fifths, augmented triads, and Debussy-like ninth chords. When the original Song of Destiny returns in the brass, the massed strings have thrilling arpeggiation over fifths and octaves, heightening the sense of anguish and grief. Then the song dwindles in dynamic and is reduced to fragments. As in _Epigraphe - La mort rôde_ from _Les Heures dolentes_, the English horn ushers us out, this time over _sul ponticello_ cello tremolos ...


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## Roger Knox

*Max D'Ollone (1875-1959)* was a child prodigy composer, a winner of the Prix de Rome, and a prolific composer of operas. Three orchestral compositions appear on Max D'Ollone: Orchestra Simfonica De Barcelona i National de Catalunya/Lawrence Foster; Claves (2003). My preference is _Le Ménétrier_ (The Minstrel; 1901) for violin and orchestra. Mark Kaplan is superb throughout as soloist. This three-movement work is a program concerto based on the idea of a medieval minstrel (the violin) in his native country who travels to the land of the Bohemians, and returns home. The opening is attractive and modal, suggesting ancient times, with interplay between the solo violin and winds. From there the music builds to a grand orchestral statement with the virtuosic violin in full flight. The middle movement is in waltz time with gapped scales and stylistic idioms of Eastern Europe. In the finale a long soaring melodic line over soft trilling orchestral strings is especially effective. A cadenza-like violin passage follows, and then the work closes with a brief reminiscence of the minstrel's trip to the East.

_Lamento_ (1908) is a late romantic elegy that features subtle handling of harmony and instrumentation. It is a good example of Wagner-influenced French music. The earlier _Fantaisie for Piano and Orchestra_ (1897) composed when the composer was 22 is technically and musically accomplished, something of a "crowd-pleaser" stylistically reminiscent of Saint-Saens. Much later, D'Ollone became president of the music section of Groupe Collaboration, an organization which "sought to establish close cultural links with Nazi Germany and appeal to the higher echelons of French life" [Wikipedia]. There is more information on the internet about this topic; this is not a place for political discussion.


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## Roger Knox

*Gustave Samazeuilh (1877-1967)* was a prominent late romantic composer and long-time advocate for Wagner. The influence shows in his orchestral music, but so do those of Debussy and impressionism. Samazeuilh excelled in piano transcriptions of orchestral music. There are good CD's of his piano and chamber music, yet for orchestral music there seem to be only archival-quality recordings of broadcasts by the Orchestre Philharmonique de la RTF on YouTube. The substantial symphonic poem _Le Nef_ (The Nave [of a ship]; 1907) opens with the initial leitmotif of the Tristan and Isolde Prelude, which recurs in sequence on higher pitches. A grand passage suggesting the surging ocean is succeeded by faster music in ¾ time (skipping over the waves?). My guess is that the music alludes to the Wagner opera's ocean voyage. After reaching a Straussian climax the work continues, with the whole-tone scale prominent.

My preferred work is _Nuit …_ (_Poème pour orchestre_; 1924). It is a memorial to Gabriel Fauré though more reminiscent of Wagner, and a shorter, stronger work than _Le Nef_. Once again there is a leitmotif, this time in the Lydian mode. The poetic idea is of eternity and the night -- rich chromatic harmonies intensified with appoggiaturas, whole tone scales, and a riot of Straussian epiphanies become the norm. Towards the end clusters of parallel high flute and piccolo lines come flooding down over the orchestra. In _Cantabile et Capriccio_ for string orchestra (1947), the slow, languorous Cantabile is succeeded by a contrasting fast pizzicato Capriccio. Then the two types alternate, and I'll leave readers to decide which prevails. During World War Two Samazeuilh was a member of Groupe Collaboration, involved in interactions with the occupying Germans. Maybe that history explains the lack of recordings of his orchestral works. Nevertheless, there is a better-sounding choice: his orchestral song cycle _Le Cercle des Heures_, played by the Orchestre de la Société des Concerts/Charles Munch on the conductor's complete recordings set.


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## Roger Knox

*Philippe Gaubert (1879-1941)* was an outstanding flautist and successful conductor; one could wish for a flute concerto too. Instead, what he left are the Violin Concerto (1930) and Poème Romanesque for Cello and Orchestra (1932). The Violin Concerto is a short, attractive work. Its strengths include the composer's expressive melody and modulating harmony to match. I especially like how he maintains variety in the solo part with delicious violin nuances and contrasts of register. The work begins well, but the composer overworks the leading motif and because of the sustained _Andante tranquillo_ mood, contrast with the noble slow movement is lessened. The virtuosic finale opens as a non-threatening march and then the violin breaks loose with amazing high-altitude fireworks and harrowing double-stops.

Overall I've enjoyed the Violin Concerto, and enjoyed Gaubert's Poème Romanesque even more. It is also in three movements and about as long as the Concerto. The Poème's opening movement excels with a soaring cello first theme and an intimate high-register second theme. They return cyclically in later movements. There are typically impressionistic pitch patterns, e.g. the whole-tone scale, augmented triad, and minor-major seventh chord, woven skillfully into these passages. More agitated music ensues for a while. A varied return of the second theme plus the first theme in the home key complete a mini-arch form (A-B-C-B1-A), wrapped up with the cello's virtuosic close in double notes. The distinguished, mysterious second movement is modal with parallel chords; bells over calm string music add a spiritual reference. The cello charges in with the first movement's theme but the string music returns. The now agitated cello challenges them then again with upward arpeggios but this time - voila! - it has a "change of heart," subdued and softly expressive. There is a cadenza and a squib of a finale, where a "duddle-um" cello figure reminds me of fireflies darting about. Above, the opening movement's first and second themes return cyclically.

The Concerto and Poème are available on Philippe Gaubert: Works for Orchestra Volume 3: Philippe Graffin (violin), Henri Demarquette (cello); Orchestre Philharmonique du Luxembourg/Marc Soustrot; Timpani (2011). I especially love cellist Henri Demarquette's Poème, for intonation, tone, bow control, and impeccable French style. His Poème recording plus other French concertante cello works are also on _Portrait avec orchestra: Henri Demarquette_; Timpani (2018).


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## Prodromides

Roger Knox said:


> I hadn't heard of him and haven't found any of his music to listen to.


My online searches lead me to a website which lists compositions by types. https://musicalics.com/en/composer/Marcel-Labey

Marcel Labey reportedly has written these items for orchestra:

Suite Champetre • (1922) • Suites
Eglogue: orchestra • (1943) • Chants
Sinfonietta: chamber orchestra • (1950) • Symphonie
Symphony 1 • (1903) • Symphonie
Symphony 2 • (1908) • Symphonie
Symphony 3 • (1933) • Symphonie
Symphony 4 • (1940) • Symphonie
Symphony: strings • (1954) • Symphonie
Fantaisie: orchestra • (1900) • Pièces
Triptyque Symphonique: orchestra • (1947) • Pièces

I don't have any of these ... and I only brought his name into this thread due his date of birth provided within a Cybelia CD compilation on French chamber music. Labey is categorized as 'modern', so I expect his name will get no further mention with respect to the topic.

As we can see, there are plenty of compositions 'out there' which are unperformed + unrecorded + overlooked (unintentionally or otherwise) ... and these are only that which exist with publishers. Think about the multitudes of manuscripts that were never formally accepted by the musical 'establishment' due to perceived commercial infeasibility.


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## Roger Knox

Prodromides said:


> My online searches lead me to a website which lists compositions by types. https://musicalics.com/en/composer/Marcel-Labey
> I don't have any of these ... and I only brought his name into this thread due his date of birth provided within a Cybelia CD compilation on French chamber music. Labey is categorized as 'modern', so I expect his name will get no further mention with respect to the topic. ...


Thank you Prodromides for bringing in the name Marcel Labey and for this additional information on his works. It's a good example of how useful musicalics.com is. I have looked up Labey also but only yesterday did I check the easy place and find an entry on -- Wikipedia! He was yet another significant composer from Brittany and a student of D'Indy. A large number of prestigious faculty and staff who left the Schola Cantorum in 1935 joined the Ecole César Franck (also in Paris) where Marcel Labey became director. His wife Charlotte Sohy (1887-1955) was also a student of D'Indy, and her works have received notable attention in the revival of French woman composers. Labey, according to Wikipedia's list of works, "rediscovered the 'esprit franckiste' in his compositions;" however one takes that, his music was not modernist. Lacking recordings I'll stop there.


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## Roger Knox

Prodromides said:


> ... As we can see, there are plenty of compositions 'out there' which are unperformed + unrecorded + overlooked (unintentionally or otherwise) ... and these are only that which exist with publishers. Think about the multitudes of manuscripts that were never formally accepted by the musical 'establishment' due to perceived commercial infeasibility.


Being a composer I'm aware of that and I second your emotion. Personally I've set the bar lower than musical establishment acceptance. Music I write needs to be played well, heard by an audience, and recorded in some form. This comment doesn't adequately answer your post -- to bring music from manuscript to publication to recording to acceptance by the musical establishment is a tall order. But in the cases of individual works and composers -- I have seen it happen and that's what encourages me. I don't know how to take up this issue in a more general way.


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## Roger Knox

On the same *Philippe Gaubert* recording as the concertante works are two compositions for orchestra alone. In _Le Cortège d'Amphitrite_ (1910), the composer adeptly builds a procession from distant beginnings to a grand, wonderfully-orchestrated here-and-now. The work is based on French symbolist Albert Samain's poem. Young sea-goddess Amphitrite emerges surrounded by sea-nymphs, riding the waves in her silver conch. Sea monsters try to hold her but she shakes them off, her cortège proceeding serenely accompanied by dolphins that make gushing water-spouts.

The two-movement symphonic poem _Au pays Basque_ (In the Basque Country; 1931) is no mere travelogue. The composer spent his summers in the Basque region, adopting customs and music of the people. _Au matin dans la montagne_ (Morning in the Mountains) evokes sunrise and nature with the composer's masterly instrumentation. At this time Gaubert was at the pinnacle of the flute profession (Jean-Pierre Rampal said he was the best flautist - ever); his writing for winds is outstanding, but so is that for other sections of the orchestra. The second movement, _Fête populaire à Saint-Jean-de-Luz_ (Popular Feast in Saint-Jean-de-Luz), is notable for the composer's adoption of 5/8 meter from a Basque dance, the zortziko. Normally the beat grouping is 1+2+2, but here there are also other formulations that keep us "on our toes" (and me queasy sometimes!).


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## Roger Knox

*Philippe Gaubert's* _Les Chants de la mer_ (1929) consists of three evocative instrumental movements: _Chants et parfums, mer colorée_; _La Ronde sur la falaise_ (Scherzo); and _Là-bas, très loin, sur la mer_. On the same recording are two non-programmatic works. Concert in F (1932) evokes the Baroque concerto grosso. The first movement is like a French overture, with a formal section in dotted rhythm followed by the Allegro. In the middle movement a slow expressive opening is followed by a minuet section, with the initial music returning for the close. A typically compact Gaubert finale is marked "fast and light."

The composer's four-movement Symphony in F Major (1935-36) is of standard length and more neoclassical than his earlier orchestral works. The first movement opens slowly in expansive, serious style with harmony of open fifths and octaves; its Allegretto continuation is in sonata form. The first theme is diatonic and cheerful, phrasing and orchestration are clear, but there are darker tinges before the end of the exposition. The initial motif of the first theme is developed and stated in augmentation by the French horn over tremolo strings, introducing a slower tempo up to the recapitulation. After a long dominant pedal comes the coda and an assertive close. The Adagio features the attractive tone colors of contrasting groups, beginning with expressive violins that alternate with solo flute. Other winds join the strings and there are passages for wind choir and for a quartet of solo strings, then the full orchestra states the theme and the movement reaches its climax. In the denouement oboe and clarinet come to the fore. The opening motif of the Scherzo is in the same rhythm as that of the scherzo in Beethoven's Ninth, while the middle section is legato and ambivalent in key. In the Finale seriousness of mood matches that of the work's opening. Cyclically the first movement's Allegretto theme returns, but now in dancing compound meter. Overall, this is a significant work that excels in thematic material, imaginative harmony, and vivid orchestration.

The three works appear on another Timpani recording, from 2008. The Luxembourg Philharmonic Orchestra/Marc Soustrot meet the technical and stylistic challenges well.


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## Gargamel

Roger Knox said:


> In this thread we're finishing with impressionism and postromanticism now and I'd like just to stick with that. Then we could continue in a new section on this thread, or start a new thread. If the First Symphony of *Pierre-Octave Ferroud* is any example, he certainly deserves more attention!


Nice find, Roger. Ferroud seems to not have been a prolific composer, or at least it's not easy to find his work online, but I enjoyed the first symphony very much. Delicately balanced, reminds me André Jolivet's exciting first symphony but with some americanisms.


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## Roger Knox

Gargamel said:


> Nice find, Roger. Ferroud seems to not have been a prolific composer, or at least it's not easy to find his work online, but I enjoyed the first symphony very much. Delicately balanced, reminds me André Jolivet's exciting first symphony but with some americanisms.


Thanks, Gargamel, just want to say I have appreciated your posts here for a long time including this one. Yes Ferroud is a good find for whom I credit Prodromides. I agree that he belongs in the same modernist company as Jolivet whose music I like.

Concerning my post that you quoted, now I would prefer to see a new thread that picks up in some way with French (and other) modernist composers, rather than continue with this current romanticism-based thread. (This one I think will remain open for posts relevant to the [late] romantic or impressionist style periods.) On a new thread, if you are interested I'd like to request that you and/or others interested propose content and approach, because I would definitely stay out of it.


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## Gargamel

Roger Knox said:


> Concerning my post that you quoted, now I would prefer to see a new thread that picks up in some way with French (and other) modernist composers, rather than continue with this current romanticism-based thread. (This one I think will remain open for posts relevant to the [late] romantic or impressionist style periods.) On a new thread, if you are interested I'd like to request that you and/or others interested propose content and approach, because I would definitely stay out of it.


Actually, I've meant to explore many of the composers mentioned in this thread but I've really lacked the time to listen to music. (I find Jolivet's first symphony is among the least modernist of his work.) While I'm a huge consumer of french music, I'm not really familiar with most of these unheralded composer.


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## Roger Knox

My favorite orchestral work by *Jean Cras (1879-1932)* is the three-movement symphonic suite _Journal de Bord (1927)_, a sea composition like no other. Cras was a commander in the French navy and the work is based on 12 hours of an ocean journey. "From 8:00 to midnight" opens with a melody in the Mixolydian mode played by the French horn and English horn. Later the octatonic and pentatonic scale also appear and become the basis for harmony. High violins for me evoke the horizon. Brass is added and the uneasy repetitive force of the ocean swell builds to a climax. Then the storm passes and in the peace of late evening we hear the English horn play the opening melody. "Midnight to 4:00" features a descending 2-note motif alternating with eerie high violins. "4:00-8:00" opens with a brief motif related cyclically to the opening movement. It is fast and cheerful, then there is a somber section where the oboe has a motif from the second movement. The fast music recurs leading to sunrise, with cymbals and a final riot of sound.

_Âmes d'enfants (1921)_ is a three-movement work that portrays successively the pure, the naïve, and the mysterious qualities of childrens' souls. The work is conventional except that it stays in the higher half of the orchestra register. I like the concept and was engaged by its simplicity and such features as modal harmony, dance melodies over drone fifths, and the last movement's harp ostinato and folk melody played by piccolo and flute. Both works appear on a recording by the Luxembourg Philharmonic Orchestra/Jean-François Antonioli on Timpani (1996).


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## Prodromides

Roger Knox said:


> Both works appear on a recording by the Luxembourg Philharmonic Orchestra/Jean-François Antonioli on Timpani (1996).


No piano concerto?



















Cybelia recorded these digitally in 1986, but this 35-year-old disc makes no claim about its contents being world premiere recordings ... so there might well be earlier incarnations.


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## Roger Knox

The Piano Concerto (1931) of *Jean Cras* has in common with other works of his the evocation of the sea, of being on board ship, and of ports of call during his travels. The first movement is in sonata form. Its exposition begins with horn calls and entrance of a solo string group followed by the piano (perhaps representing the "ship's commander?") with a pensive melody. An upward major-second string motif is emphasized. The piano theme is ornamented in late romantic style and then a contrasting staccato passage initiates faster and louder music. Development and recapitulation sections carry the music to a climax.

The slow movement, surely night music, opens with eerie high strings and scale passages in the winds - octatonic, whole tone, and pentatonic. They may evoke music of non-western cultures. The piano joins with extended trills, and an enigmatic pair of tritone-related major triads recurs. Brass carry the movement to a fortissimo before it relapses into a quiet close. While onshore in various countries on his naval route, Cras liked to hear and acquire information on different kinds of music. In the fast-moving finale, the Lydian and pentatonic modes suggest Eastern styles while near the close the Basque *zortziko* rhythm dominates. Here and throughout, Alain Jacquon is an able performer of this unusual piano concerto.

Both the Piano Concerto and _Légende_ (1929) for cello and orchestra are on the same Timpani recording as _Journal de Bord_ and _Âmes d'enfants_. Conceived in the spirit of Celtic folk legends, _Légende_ is a masterly work in which the cello enters modestly yet soon enjoys a solo part of uncommon melodic beauty and expressive subtlety. It took me a while to accept a contrasting repetitive dance motif that becomes another strand in the tapestry. Cellist Henri Demarquette handles everything wonderfully, including a solo passage where the dance motif is enhanced with double stops and an open fifth drone. A slower, mournful section follows, then the works ends with virtuosic fireworks from soloist and orchestra.


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## Roger Knox

Prodromides said:


> No piano concerto?
> ...........
> Cybelia recorded these digitally in 1986, but this 35-year-old disc makes no claim about its contents being world premiere recordings ... so there might well be earlier incarnations.


Yes, the Piano Concerto and Legend for Cello and Orchestra are both on the same Timpani disc I mentioned above. But your recordings mark an earlier era with performers' names new to me. You must have quite a collection of LP's! Back in 1986 I hadn't heard of eather Cybelia or Cras let alone earlier incarnations. How do you like the Cybelia recording?

*!!!Last four composers: Desire-Emile Inghelbrecht, Paul Le Flem, Lili and Nadia Boulanger*
(plus a surprise). Comments welcome.


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## Prodromides

Roger Knox said:


> Yes, the Piano Concerto and Legend for Cello and Orchestra are both on the same Timpani disc I mentioned above. But your recordings mark an earlier era with performers' names new to me. You must have quite a collection of LP's! Back in 1986 I hadn't heard of eather Cybelia or Cras let alone earlier incarnations. How do you like the Cybelia recording?


I listened to my Cybelia disc last night (after reading your posting on Cras) ... and I like it better than I had ever before.
His music is more accomplished and colorful than I remember, and, for a so-called 'part-time' composer [as labeled by a Grammaphone critic], Jean Cras can more than hold a candle to Albert Roussel. I like Cras more than Roussel, honestly.

Not being an audiophile myself, I'm quite satisfied with the mid-to-late '80s recordings on Cybelia. I do not require the latest & greatest in sound reproduction technology in order to appreciate 'obscure' music. 
I did accrue a massive vinyl LP collection from age 18 in 1985 up through around 2012, but sold off most of it by 2017.
Probably have about 75 record albums left to keep - plus my 600+ CDs remain as the core of my music sources.

If you are able to view my TC membership avatar/icon, then you can see my user name image comes from a 1961 Philips LP on a French television oratorio production "Les Perses". This is one of my 75 keepers as well as the vinyls on other operatic/stage works by Prodromides, Marcel Landowski, Charles Chaynes + many others. https://www.talkclassical.com/20127-vintage-french-opera-albums.html?highlight=Landowski

Prior to the CD boon of the '80s, the Erato label was likely to have been the leader of French modernism during the 1960s & 1970s on vinyl.


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## Roger Knox

*Désiré-Émile Inghelbrecht (1880-1965)* was a distinguished French conductor and composer, and a close friend of Debussy during his last years. I like his _Sinfonia breva da camera_ (1930) for its clarity, variety, and attractive orchestration. The first movement opens peacefully with a descending fourth motif and woodwind bird calls. From the major key it moves into ambiguous harmony; the music builds restlessly and Jazz Age syncopations appear. The middle section is darker; the opening music returns varied toward the close. In the Pastorale movement there is another contrast, this time from the opening pentatonic oboe solo to an anguished middle section, and then final dialogue. The dancing folk-like Finale's opening becomes a stepping stone to orchestral hijinks: loud trills, scattered motifs, and percussion breaks. Nursery Suite No. 1 (after 1905) was a volume of short four-hand piano pieces, some of which were orchestrated later. This appealing collection features clever instrumentation and harmonization; I especially like the piquant woodwinds and spicy added-note chords. It is a nursery suite that adults can enjoy too.

_Sinfonia breva da camera_ is available on YT, recorded by a studio orchestra directed by Jan Koetsier. What appears to be the same recording is also available for purchase on a Timpani re-release (2012) of historic recordings by Records Pathé-Art from 1930-31, entitled The Vocal Signatures. This package includes works by a number of French composers of the time, plus brief spoken "signatures" (e.g. Inghelbrecht's, 33 seconds long.) Nursery Suite No. 1 is on YT, with the unidentified orchestra conducted by Roger Boutry. For both of these works the sound is better than on most recordings from the 1930's.


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## Roger Knox

Prodromides said:


> I listened to my Cybelia disc last night (after reading your posting on Cras) ... and I like it better than I had ever before.
> His music is more accomplished and colorful than I remember, and, for a so-called 'part-time' composer [as labeled by a Grammaphone critic], Jean Cras can more than hold a candle to Albert Roussel. I like Cras more than Roussel, honestly.
> 
> Not being an audiophile myself, I'm quite satisfied with the mid-to-late '80s recordings on Cybelia. I do not require the latest & greatest in sound reproduction technology in order to appreciate 'obscure' music.
> I did accrue a massive vinyl LP collection from age 18 in 1985 up through around 2012, but sold off most of it by 2017.
> Probably have about 75 record albums left to keep - plus my 600+ CDs remain as the core of my music sources.
> 
> If you are able to view my TC membership avatar/icon, then you can see my user name image comes from a 1961 Philips LP on a French television oratorio production "Les Perses". This is one of my 75 keepers as well as the vinyls on other operatic/stage works by Prodromides, Marcel Landowski, Charles Chaynes + many others. https://www.talkclassical.com/20127-vintage-french-opera-albums.html?highlight=Landowski
> 
> Prior to the CD boon of the '80s, the Erato label was likely to have been the leader of French modernism during the 1960s & 1970s on vinyl.


Glad to hear you are enjoying your Cybelia disc again! And your collection is even more impressive than I had thought -- I certainly would like to follow up with you about some recordings that lie outside this thread's scope.

Also, your quote from the Gramophone critic illustrates a problem that unheralded composers have faced, namely "minimizing." Some barb brings down the composer while ignoring the larger picture, e.g. that the naval career of Jean Cras is part and parcel of his composing ...


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## Roger Knox

I first heard of *Paul Le Flem (1881 - 1984)* as a composer who lived to the age of 103. Remarkable as that is I have found that the more you get acquainted with him, the more remarkable he becomes. Identifying with Breton culture, he also developed a wide-ranging outlook that served him well as a long-time music critic. He studied abroad in Russia and learned Russian before going to the Schola Cantorum, where his teachers were D'Indy and Roussel. In the Symphony No. 1 in A Major (1908) these early influences are notable, along with that of Debussy in his harmony and orchestration. The opening movement's slow opening theme in 5/4 meter has a Russian feel at the cadence; after a grand build-up in the brass it leads again in a fast 6/8 version. Complex variation of motifs especially in the woodwinds, frequent modulations and striking orchestral outbursts mark this movement. Cyclically the opening theme recurs in succeeding movements; in the slow movement it is in the Lydian mode, an oboe statement succeeded by one in the strings. Its motifs and others along with strong dynamic contrasts characterize the music. A dancing ostinato motif in 6/8 meter recurs in the scherzo, whose slow middle section brings back the first movement theme but in a whole-tone scale version. The bright finale has a skipping folk-like (Breton-influenced?) theme. It is brilliantly orchestrated with lots of bell-like percussion and harp. As a whole the symphony can feel wayward at times but it has many wonderful inventive passages that repay repeated listening.

While Le Flem's symphony is often pensive or melancholy, his Fantaisie for Piano and Orchestra (1911) is upbeat and virtuosic. The grandness of its piano style surprised me, with Debussy-like flourishes and colouristic effects. Both this and the Symphony No. 1 are on a Timpani recording (2007) by the Bretagne Orchestra/ Claude Schizler. Seven Pieces for Children (1910) reveal another side of the composer. Orchestrations of his piano pieces, they touch on the emotional life of children more than do similar works by other composers. As for _Pour les morts_ (For the Dead; 1920), this work moves me most of all. One might expect it to commemorate World War 1 victims, but actually it was composed in memory of two of Le Flem's five children who died in childhood. It is dignified and grave at the opening, and then seems to evoke reminiscences and feelings with uncanny perceptiveness and mastery of the composer's métier. Both this and the Seven Pieces for Children are on a Marco Polo recording (1994) by the Rhenish Philharmonic Orchestra/James Lockhart.


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## Roger Knox

The Boulanger sisters, Nadia and Lili, are the last composers I will write about on this thread. That is appropriate enough, since their orchestral works face towards both the past and the future. *Nadia Boulanger (1887-1979)* became a world famous teacher of composition and the first woman conductor of major orchestras in USA and Europe. Her _Fantaisie variée pour piano et orchestre_ (1912) is the first work by her that I have heard, and it demonstrates her fine abilities as a composer. It helps to know that her mother was Russian because its heavy-into-the-key style of piano playing, virtuosic with thundering octaves, is unlike most other French composers. It opens with a stark theme in the orchestra and then the piano, which is answered with dreamy and expressive music. Later the upper register of the piano is explored with delicacy, followed by an extended section suggestive of battle music. Harmonic touches from more recent times appear towards the end of the work, as though leading us ahead historically. The work is on a recording by pianist David Greilsammer with the French National Radio Orchestra/Steven Sloane on the Naïve label (2010).


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## Roger Knox

The short life of *Lili Boulanger (1893-1918)* included significant accomplishments, among them winning the Prix de Rome for composition and conducting major fundraising campaigns during World War 1. She composed two notable symphonic poems: _D'un soir triste_ (1918) and _D'un matin du printemps_ (1918). _D'un soir triste_ opens in the Phrygian mode, darker than a minor key. It advances at a steady pace but seems filled with crisis. Dissonant chords are remarkable, some of them searing high-register sonorities. It is a uniquely brilliant work, relentless yet mysterious, with a modernist sensibility. _D'un matin du printemps_ (1918) is energetic but not cheerful; this is no pastoral spring morning. The woodwinds are adept, but their chords have added 2nds or are complex chromatic structures. YT includes an excellent recording that includes both works by the BBC Philharmonic Orchestra/Yan Pascal Tortelier. It was originally on Chandos (1999) and is now available through Naxos.


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## Roger Knox

*Conclusions About Composers Born 1875-1899:*

In view of this thread's title, and having listened to most of the composers' orchestral works (always including concertos and concertante pieces), here are my conclusions. "Unheralded" means "for orchestral music," and does not include the composer's other music.

Not unheralded, many compositions: *Ravel*

Unheralded, many compositions: *Gaubert, Le Flem*

Unheralded, few compositions: *Renié, D'Ollone, Aubert, Huré, Samazeuilh, Ladmirault, Caplet, Dupont, Cras, Inghelbrecht, Boulanger-N., Boulanger-L.*

My personal favourites are: *Ravel, Caplet, Le Flem, Gaubert, & Cras*


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## Roger Knox

Now I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to or followed this thread. Doing it during the COVID-19 epidemic has been a welcome temporary respite from the things I do to help those close to me. Even more I appreciate personal support from a number of people who've added their special knowledge and encouragement, improving it in ways that I could not have imagined. It has 21,910 views but more importantly, compositions that deserve more recognition are being listened to. Thank you again.

After today I won't be adding composers or making comments on a regular basis. But please continue to post, ask questions or make requests and I will respond. New information, recordings and opinions are welcome.

After this thread and the earlier "Neglected German and Austrian orchestral composers of the late romantic era," I have decided not to lead any more survey threads of this type. At some point, they become too much work for me! Nevertheless I look forward to reading and contributing on classical music, and to learning from the different approaches of others on TalkClassical (well, most of them!)

It was my goal to reach this point by Canada Day on July 1. And I'd like to wish everyone all the best for the summer, including a happy Fourth of July and other special days. May we be thankful for our blessings and careful to stay safe and well.


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## Roger Knox

mparta said:


> I still think Saint-Saens is still un- or underappreciated because (this is why I think this) I only recently came back to him with a prejudice born of critical dismissal. All of his music is well made and much of it spectacularly so. I continue to dig through it, i knew very little before i heard a SMASHING performance of the 5th concerto by Jean Yves Thibaudet, knocked me out of my seat (playing equally over the top, this pianist is superb).


mparta,
Your post is from a while back, but as it happens yesterday I watched a video on YT of the Thibaudet performance of the Saint-Saens 5th piano concerto with the Concertgebouw Orchestra/Nelsons. I share your enthusiasm for Thibaudet's interpretation both technically and for colour, imagination and ... life!

Because I put Saint-Saens among the top-rated composers (a good decision I think), he didn't get the "unheralded" discussion that other composers did. But like yours my appreciation of him is climbing. Including for his orchestral tone symphonic poems _Le Rouet d'Omphale_, _Phaeton_, and _La Jeunesse d'Hercule_. My favorite is _Phaeton_ -- it is wonderful music despite the uneasy sense of fate.


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## Roger Knox

redundant post ......


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## Roger Knox

Josquin13 said:


> *Camille Saint-Saens: Symphonic Poems*:
> 
> Dutoit:
> 
> 
> 
> --Danse macabre:
> Stokowski:
> 
> 
> 
> Dutoit:
> 
> 
> 
> --Phaeton:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --Le rouet d'Omphale:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --La Jeunesse d'Hercule:


The above information on recordings of Saint-Saens' four symphonic poems comes from post#12 by josquin13. In particular, there are sets by the Philharmonia Orchestra/Dutoit (Decca Ovation or London, c. 1980) and by the Orchestre de Lille/Jun Märkl (Naxos, 2017), plus an historic recording by Stokowski. I haven't compared the sets but think both are very good. (There is also a set by the Royal Scottish Orchestra/N. Järvi [Chandos, 2012] that I haven't heard; David Hurwitz recommends an older one on EMI conducted by Pierre Dervaux).

A question that interests me is whether or not the four symphonic poems make a "set," or "cycle" if you like. If generally seen that way I think they would receive more attention. From what I've heard and read, I think on a recording they do make a set. See the recordings listed above: all four symphonic poems are based on myths, the last three on the Greek mythology Saint-Saens loved, and the final two on stories of Hercules, which had particular significance for Saint-Saens. A prodigy of prodigies, he was acutely aware of the need to make good choices from early on in life. _La Jeunesse d'Hercule_, the latest and longest of the symphonic poems, deals with choosing a life of virtue or a life of pleasure, whereas the earlier ones were based on a single event or series of events. Musically _La Jeunesse ..._ is also more complex, or at least more dualistic than the others, showing development in the composer's formal range.


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## Josquin13

I'd never thought of Saint-Saens' symphonic poems as a deliberate cycle, but yes, I think you could be right to see them in that way.

Roger, I just wanted to say many thanks for this invaluable and interesting thread! It's one that I plan to return to again & again in the future--since, as you know, this period tends to fascinate me. I've also admired your thoroughness and persistent dedication.


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## mparta

Roger Knox said:


> mparta,
> Your post is from a while back, but as it happens yesterday I watched a video on YT of the Thibaudet performance of the Saint-Saens 5th piano concerto with the Concertgebouw Orchestra/Nelsons. I share your enthusiasm for Thibaudet's interpretation both technically and for colour, imagination and ... life!
> 
> Because I put Saint-Saens among the top-rated composers (a good decision I think), he didn't get the "unheralded" discussion that other composers did. But like yours my appreciation of him is climbing. Including for his orchestral tone symphonic poems _Le Rouet d'Omphale_, _Phaeton_, and _La Jeunesse d'Hercule_. My favorite is _Phaeton_ -- it is wonderful music despite the uneasy sense of fate.


Thibaudet has both the necessary technique and the insouciance. In a world dominated by Brahms and Beethoven and Mozart, i still think the St. Saens concerti stand out, especially the 5th, but they're all jewels and I think very much underappreciated. Rubenstein made a warhorse of the 2nd, and it's fine, but they're all as good and the warhorse way of seeing these works is just wrong.
Russian style, German style. Both wrong for this. This is French.


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## Radames

Gounod got almost no love on his 200 birthday. He was totally overshadowed by Bernstein's 100th. Did anyone mention Louise Farrenc? Yannick Nezet-Seguin has taken her up.


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## Roger Knox

Radames said:


> Gounod got almost no love on his 200 birthday. He was totally overshadowed by Bernstein's 100th. Did anyone mention Louise Farrenc? Yannick Nezet-Seguin has taken her up.


At one point I was thinking of starting with earlier French Romantic composers, but then I became afraid of the extra time it would take and decided to begin with the generation of Saint-Saens.

At this point, could everyone who reads this please consider posting something about any earlier French Romantic piece and composer that seems to belong here (symphonic or concerto). A post could be the name of the piece and composer (and recording) plus what you think of it. Gounod symphonies, Farrenc symphonies or concertante works would be great. I'm happy to provide suggestions, but would request that others carry the ball on additional composers or works.


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## Roger Knox

Josquin13 said:


> I'd never thought of Saint-Saens' symphonic poems as a deliberate cycle, but yes, I think you could be right to see them in that way.
> 
> Roger, I just wanted to say many thanks for this invaluable and interesting thread! It's one that I plan to return to again & again in the future--since, as you know, this period tends to fascinate me. I've also admired your thoroughness and persistent dedication.


Thank you again, Josquin 13, for your invaluable contributions. Concerning Saint-Saens symphonic poems as a cycle, they weren't to my knowledge a deliberate cycle and I've backed off that idea based on some checking in Wikipedia. In brief, Smetana's _Ma Vlast_ is a symphonic poem cycle as is Koechlin's Jungle Books cycle -- by the composer's intention. I haven't found a reference to any cycle of symphonic poems so designated without the composer's intention or approval. It would be confusing to mix the two situations under one term.

As for thoroughness and persistence, I'm happy with the support some people give on TC. And after all, most of the music I've listened to ranges from good to superb.


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## Roger Knox

Roger Knox said:


> I haven't found a reference to any cycle of symphonic poems so designated without the composer's intention or approval.


Contrast the above situation to the symphony cycles that are claimed to exist for all kinds of composers. It may be partly because of the recording industry issuing boxes of composers' complete symphonies, with the word "cycle" giving a sense of unity and development to the whole. Not asking for that to be done with symphonic poems -- but I'm trying to think of ways of giving them more weight in the world of orchestral music. I don't like to see symphonic poems as "filler" on recordings that feature symphonies or concertos either.

Currently I'm listening to the six symphonic poems of César Franck and speculating as usual. Here's another portion of josquin13's post #12 with two of them, the first with three versions:

César Franck:

--Psyché (both Paul Strauss and Jean Fournet have made excellent recordings of this music):
Strauss, Orchestre de Liège (complete): 



Fournet, Czech Philharmonic: 



_Not Available Now_ -- Fournet, Netherlands Radio Philharmonic: 



 _ 
Fournet, Prague Symphony Orchestra: 



--Le Chasseur Maudit: 



_


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## Roger Knox

Roger Knox said:


> I haven't found a reference to any cycle of symphonic poems so designated without the composer's intention or approval. It would be confusing to mix the two situations under one term.


Back to Saint-Saëns, things have changed again. From a YT upload of _Le Rouet d'Omphale_ by Bartje Bartman: "Le Rouet d'Omphale is part of four symphonic poems in a mythological series by Saint-Saëns. The other three in the series are Danse macabre, Phaëton, and La jeunesse d'Hercule." 




This is the first time I've seen a reference to the Saint-Saëns symphonic poems as a group. No citation given, so I don't know if the composer saw them that way.

In the meantime I've also seen Liszt's 12 symphonic poems referred to as a cycle envisioned by Liszt himself as a whole. And I've seen Richard Strauss's first three tone poems referred to as a cycle. The word just keeps cycling back.

Finally, I've found a way to keep the Saint-Saëns symphonic poems in chronological order, both for memory and for listening purposes. The first and last ones are about Hercules. _Le Rouet d'Omphale_ opens pleasantly before getting into the main action. Then I imagine him having nightmares about _Phaëton_ (death of a son of the Sun-God) and the _Danse macabre_ (a devilish night vision). But the close of _La jeunesse d'Hercule_ has a happy ending. At less than 38' the group is convenient for one sitting:

_Le Rouet d'Omphale_ (1869)
_Danse macabre_ (1873)
_Phaëton_ (1875)
_La jeunesse d'Hercule_ (1877)


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## Roger Knox

Roger Knox said:


> Smetana's _Ma Vlast_ is a symphonic poem cycle as is Koechlin's Jungle Books cycle -- by the composer's intention.


Besides the Koechlin cycle, another symphonic poem cycle by the composer's intention that is relevant to this thread is Vincent d'Indy's symphonic trilogy _Wallenstein_, op. 12. It is made up of three symphonic poems: Le Piccolonini (1880); Le Mort de Wallenstein (1874); and Le Camp de Wallenstein (1884).


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## Roger Knox

Roger Knox said:


> In the meantime I've also seen Liszt's 12 symphonic poems referred to as a cycle envisioned by Liszt himself as a whole. And I've seen Richard Strauss's first three tone poems referred to as a cycle.


Here is the reference for Richard Strauss's tone poems: _The Cambridge Companion to Richard Strauss_, ed. Charles Youmans, 2010. In a chapter by David Larkin, the First Cycle of tone poems (3) consists of:
- _Macbeth_
- _Don Juan_
- _Tod und Verklärung_ (Death and Transfiguration)
The earlier _Aus Italien_ is considered to have some characteristics of a symphonic poem.

In a later chapter by James Hepokoski, the Second Cycle of tone poems (4) is identified as:
- _Till Eulenspiegels lustige Streiche_ (Till Eulenspiegel's Merry Pranks)
- _Also sprach Zarathustra_ (Thus Spake Zarathustra)
- _Don Quixote_
- _Ein Heldenleben_ (A Hero's Life)
No cycle is identified for _Symfonia Domestica_ or _Eine Alpensinfonie_ (the latter being deemed a symphonic poem).

Some readers may wonder about the set of tone poems by Sibelius. According to Wikipedia: "The Swan of Tuonela (_Tuonelan joutsen_) is an 1895 tone poem by the Finnish composer Jean Sibelius. It is part of the _Lemminkäinen Suite_ (Four Legends from the Kalevala), Op. 22, based on the Finnish mythological epic the _Kalevala_." In such a suite the linkage is based on the source material alone.

At this point I'm leaving off research about the term "symphonic poem cycle." If anyone has more information or comments please let us know.


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## Roger Knox

Roger Knox said:


> I've found a way to keep the Saint-Saëns symphonic poems in chronological order, both for memory and for listening purposes. ... At less than 38' the group is convenient for one sitting:
> 
> _Le Rouet d'Omphale_ (1869)
> _Danse macabre_ (1873)
> _Phaëton_ (1875)
> _La jeunesse d'Hercule_ (1877)


For consistency I'm going to use the word "group" for any arrangement of symphonic or tone poems that does not clearly represent the composer's intention. As with the above Saint-Saëns group, I've chosen the following group of César Franck's symphonic poems as an aid to memory and an enjoyable listening experience. This time I've done a little trimming, though. Franck's first symphonic poem (a term that had not yet been invented) comes from 1846 when he was only 24 years old: _Ce qu'on entend sur la montagne_ (What One Hears on the Mountain), based on a poem by Victor Hugo. It is a slow-paced 24 minutes long and, remarkably, has repetitive affinities with the music of Philip Glass. Franck didn't publish the work, but he revised it in 1874 by which time the symphonic poem had been well established by Liszt (who incidentally composed a work with the same title and based on the same poem as Franck's). In any case I've decided to leave it off the group and consider it their "prequel." Here is a list of the remaining five, which are in chronological order:
- _Rédemption_ (1872 rev. 1874) - orchestral movements only
- _Les Éolides_ (1876) 
- _Le Chasseur maudit_ (1882)
- _Les Djinns_ (1884)
- _Psyché et Eros_ (1888) - orchestral movements only

No doubt controversially, I've decided to include versions of _Rédemption_ and _Psyché et Eros_ that do not include music for chorus or vocal soloists. This is to keep the group to a listenable length (under 79'), and makes these two longer works more proportionate to the others. Their complete vocal-orchestral versions would be better listened to separately. The recordings for orchestra alone are by the Orchestre de Paris/Daniel Barenboim, on YT.

At this point I'd like to ask for feedback on the Saint-Saens group and on this Franck one as listening experiences.


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## Roger Knox

Roger Knox said:


> At this point I'd like to ask for feedback on the Saint-Saëns group and on this Franck one as listening experiences.


Concerning the Franck group of symphonic poems in the previous post:
- nos. 1 and 5 (Redemption, Psyche and Eros) are long works of contemplative character
- nos. 2 and 4 (The Aeolids, The Genies) portray mythological entities
- no. 3 (The Wild Huntsman) is based on Romantic medieval-themed ballad of the same title by Gottfried August Burger

As with the Saint-Saëns group, these symphonic poems are in chronological order. The group makes up a kind of "arch form" with the "keystone" being No. 3, the most popular and energetic one. Whether such an arrangement is of any advantage for listening and remembering purposes is what I'd like feedback on. (Notice also titles are given in English).


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## Roger Knox

Roger Knox said:


> For consistency I'm going to use the word "group" for any arrangement of symphonic or tone poems that does not clearly represent the composer's intention.


Here is another type of group: four good symphonic poems by four different composers born 1825-49, with previous posts noted:

*Henri Duparc*, _Lenore_ (1875). Post #59.

*Charles Widor*, _Walpurgis Night_, (1887). Post #48.

*Ernest Guiraud*, _The Fantastic Chase_ (1887). Post #49. Since my post an upload of the same recording with better sound has appeared on YT, by bartje bartlmans. The performance by the Louisville Symphony/Jorge Mester is very good, likely from the late 1960's or 1970's. This is a fine work, obviously related to Franck's greater _The Wild Huntsman_, but more compact and with a melodic "hook."

*Jules Massenet*, [/I]Visions_ (1890). Post #32._


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## Roger Knox

In addition to the problematic usage of "symphonic poem cycle," there is a problem with the idea of the symphonic poem itself, namely that music historians do not agree about it. For example, in the _New Oxford History of Music_, Vol. IX: Romanticism (1830-1890) (ed. Gerald Abraham, 1990), the editor's entry on Symphonic Poems is largely about how they were or are something else. It seems he wants the genre to be reduced greatly in size.

Not being a professional music historian I would prefer to leave off the matter here. If a work is called a symphonic poem or tone poem in standard reference works, liner notes, or concert programs I'll do likewise.


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## Gargamel

Been listening to Jean Absil (1893-1874), I don't know if he's vallon (french) or flemish, but he's strikingly similar to Hilding Rosenberg (Symphony 7 -style) who was his exact contemporary, although one might argue that his symphonies are a bit repetitive.


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## mparta

Gargamel said:


> Been listening to Jean Absil (1893-1874), I don't know if he's vallon (french) or flemish, but he's strikingly similar to Hilding Rosenberg (Symphony 7 -style) who was his exact contemporary, although one might argue that his symphonies are a bit repetitive.


The only Absil I (should) know, I get side railed by the other works that I love on this disc and I think it's the finest version of Van Dam's Schumann I know.


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## JohnP

> For me, No.4 [Magnard] is supreme....


Magnard's 4th should be part of the repertoire of any orchestra. It's brilliant.


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## Roger Knox

JohnP said:


> Magnard's 4th should be part of the repertoire of any orchestra. It's brilliant.


Many others agree with you; specifically, I've noticed David Hurwitz's advocacy for getting Magnard's 4th into the orchestral repertoire


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## Roger Knox

Back here after a summer of mainly casual listening. Below is a of list of the concertante compositions (works for instrument and orchestra) by *Camille Saint-Saëns* that are not concertos. I waver on whether it's better _not_ to write or talk much about such pieces, which tend to be short and light, and to leave them to be received as amusing, surprising, puzzling, unexpectedly moving, and so on. But please comment as you wish!

To my knowledge there are 19; the four for piano and orchestra are:

Allegro appassionato, op. 70, R.37 (1884)

Rhapsodie d'Auvergne, op. 73 (1884)

Wedding Cake, Caprice-valse, op. 76 (1885)

Africa, op. 89 (1891)

At least some of the above exist also in solo piano versions. Enjoy!


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## mparta

Put this in the current listening as well.

This is a much, much superior performance to Ossonce on Timpani, in fact that really fades to insignificance.

This is the performance that got me to Ropartz in the first place. Real playing, real orchestra, a few meh moments from the singers but in general a major work that sounds well here. I had to replace my old disc which wouldn't work, glad I did. I wish there were more Ropartz from this source.

Only been to Toulouse once, to the opera at the Capitole, seems another real French regional source for great music that doesn't have an international audience. That should be rectified.


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## Roger Knox

mparta said:


> Put this in the current listening as well.
> 
> This is a much, much superior performance to Ossonce on Timpani, in fact that really fades to insignificance.
> 
> This is the performance that got me to Ropartz in the first place. Real playing, real orchestra, a few meh moments from the singers but in general a major work that sounds well here. I had to replace my old disc which wouldn't work, glad I did. I wish there were more Ropartz from this source.
> 
> Only been to Toulouse once, to the opera at the Capitole, seems another real French regional source for great music that doesn't have an international audience. That should be rectified.


mparta, Thank you so much! I can well believe that it is the Toulouse Orchestra/Plasson recording that put the important Third Symphony of Ropartz on the map. It would be interesting to know more about the Capitole and the less-recognized musical scene of south-western France as well.


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## Roger Knox

Couple more points concerning the Saint-Saëns pieces mentioned above in post #258:

!. The _Allegro appassionato_, op. 70 in C minor for piano and orchestra (1884), should be distinguished from the _Allegro appassionato_, op. 43 in B minor for cello and orchestra (1875) that will be mentioned later. Both are worthy pieces.

2. Despite its "programmatic" title, _Africa_, op. 89 for piano and orchestra (1891) in my opinion is certainly not to be thought of as a symphonic poem or genre piece illustrative in some way of North Africa. It strikes me rather as a meeting of musical minds. Saint-Saëns brought carefully-notated examples from his listening to North African musicians together with his own European 19th-century pianistic style. It's sort of a composed experiment that because of his musical imagination and finesse I think succeeds brilliantly.


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## Roger Knox

Roger Knox said:


> 2. ... _Africa_, op. 89 for piano and orchestra (1891) ...


The full title is _Africa: Fantasy for Piano and Orchestra_. The _fantasy_ is a musical genre that often incorporates pre-existing melodies.


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## Roger Knox

Here are the concertante compositions of Saint-Saëns for violin and orchestra that are not concertos:

Introduction and Rondo Capricioso, op. 28 (1863)

Romance in D-flat major, op.37 (1871). For flute or violin and orchestra.

Romance in C major for violin and orchestra, op. 48 (1874)

_Morceau de concert_, op. 62 (1880). Various keys are given for this work, but there is only one Saint-Saëns _Morceau de concert_ for violin and orchestra, and only one op. 62.

_Havanaise_, op. 83 (1887)

_Caprice andalous_, op. 122 (1904)

For violin, cello, and orchestra, there is _La muse et la poète_, op.132 (1910).


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## Roger Knox

Somehow I prefer the above Saint-Saëns concertante works for string instruments, to those on the preceding list for piano.

Saint-Saëns knew and had great respect for Liszt who, with all of his piano/orchestra paraphrases, fantasias, variations, and so on based on opera themes, kind of owned that sort of piano concertante composition. Whereas with the violin, Camille did not have the spectre of Franz hanging over him. What he did have was an ongoing connection with violin prodigy Pablo Sarasate to whom he dedicated several violin-orchestra works. Sarasate's nationality (Spanish) explains the musical character of several of the a pieces including the Introduction and Rondo Capricioso. I think Saint-Saëns composed more expressive music for the violin (e.g. _Havanaise_) than for the piano, where he was sometimes accused of being too busy and technical.


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## Livly_Station

Saint-Saëns' works for violin are absolutely lovely, but his Piano Concertos are not far behind -- very pianistic and superbly written compositions. His 2nd and 5th Concertos are very famous, but his 3rd and 4th are just as great. 

Only his solo piano repertoire is not the strongest, but I still like some of the études.


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## Livly_Station

Btw, since I recommended Villa-Lobos' symphonies in another thread, I decided to listen to some of them today (pretty great)... and so I looked at their Wikipedia page to discover a little bit more about them... only to find this sentence written about his 2nd Symphony:

_"It is the second in a cycle of five symphonies written in the style of Vincent d'Indy."_*

What?! A french composer who I didn't even know about his existence (or didn't pay attention, sorry), who nobody says anything meaningful about, this guy was the inspiration for 5 (five!) symphonies of one the best composers of the 20th century... Well, that's surprising...

So, I guess, if Villa-Lobos had access to this thread, he'd probably mention Vincent d'Indy as an unheralded french romantic orchestral composer.

*PS: I don't know if the information is true.


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## Roger Knox

Livly_Station said:


> Btw, since I recommended Villa-Lobos' symphonies in another thread, I decided to listen to some of them today (pretty great)... and so I looked at their Wikipedia page to discover a little bit more about them... only to find this sentence written about his 2nd Symphony:
> 
> _"It is the second in a cycle of five symphonies written in the style of Vincent d'Indy."_*
> 
> What?! A french composer who I didn't even know about his existence (or didn't pay attention, sorry), who nobody says anything meaningful about, this guy was the inspiration for 5 (five!) symphonies of one the best composers of the 20th century... Well, that's surprising...
> 
> So, I guess, if Villa-Lobos had access to this thread, he'd probably mention Vincent d'Indy as an unheralded french romantic orchestral composer.
> 
> *PS: I don't know if the information is true.


That is a really interesting thought! In the late 19th/early 20th century Vincent d"Indy was a leading figure in France. One of the top students of Cesar Franck, d'Indy was a well-known a composer, conductor, composition pedagogue, and co-founder of the Schola Cantorum as alternative to the Paris Conservatory. His music is well-represented on record but the orchestral works don't receive important live performances. One reason is the anti-semitism of d'Indy's writings over many years. I admire his music but my postings about d'Indy aren't on this thread; rather they are here:

https://www.talkclassical.com/38509-vincent-dindy-orchestral-works-2.html?highlight=vincent+d'Indy

As for Villa-Lobos, I haven't heard of his five symphonies in the style of d"Indy. He spent much of the 1920's in Paris. Maybe he heard d'Indy's music in concert or studied the composer's _Cours de composition complete_. It's work checking out further.


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## Livly_Station

Roger Knox said:


> That is a really interesting thought! In the late 19th/early 20th century Vincent d"Indy was a leading figure in France. One of the top students of Cesar Franck, d'Indy was a well-known a composer, conductor, composition pedagogue, and co-founder of the Schola Cantorum as alternative to the Paris Conservatory. His music is well-represented on record but the orchestral works don't receive important live performances. One reason is the anti-semitism of d'Indy's writings over many years. I admire his music but my postings about d'Indy aren't on this thread; rather they are here:
> 
> https://www.talkclassical.com/38509-vincent-dindy-orchestral-works-2.html?highlight=vincent+d'Indy
> 
> As for Villa-Lobos, I haven't heard of his five symphonies in the style of d"Indy. He spent much of the 1920's in Paris. Maybe he heard d'Indy's music in concert or studied the composer's _Cours de composition complete_. It's work checking out further.


I was looking a little more into it and it seems that Villa-Lobos studied d'Indy's _Cours de Composition_ still in Brazil, which was fundamental for Villa-Lobos to learn more about form (especially cyclic forms) and european rules of composition. That was earlier in his life -- he was already familiar with both classical music and brazilian street music, of course, but was still finding his own voice as a composer. His five symphonies in this style are his first five symphonies (but the fifth is lost) -- and they're pretty good.

Now I'm not sure if Villa-Lobos ever met d'Indy when he visited Europe, or if he was familiar with d'Indy's music. Anyway, I was listening to some of his works and I enjoyed the _Symphony On a French Mountain Air_.


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## Roger Knox

Livly_Station said:


> I was looking a little more into it and it seems that Villa-Lobos studied d'Indy's _Cours de Composition_ still in Brazil, which was fundamental for Villa-Lobos to learn more about form (especially cyclic forms) and european rules of composition. That was earlier in his life -- he was already familiar with both classical music and brazilian street music, of course, but was still finding his own voice as a composer. His five symphonies in this style are his first five symphonies (but the fifth is lost) -- and they're pretty good.
> 
> Now I'm not sure if Villa-Lobos ever met d'Indy when he visited Europe, or if he was familiar with d'Indy's music. Anyway, I was listening to some of his works and I enjoyed the _Symphony On a French Mountain Air_.


Thanks for following up -- it shows what a long reach d'Indy had as a teacher, and it's really significant that Villa-Lobos modelled five symphonies on principles from the _Cours de composition_ by d'Indy . Among d'Indy's works I have a particular thing for the _Poème de rivages_, but most people seem to prefer his earlier works.


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## Roger Knox

Here are the rest of the concertante compositions of Saint-Saëns that are not concertos:

Cello

Suite for Cello and Orchestra in d minor, op. 16b (1902-1919). Written in olden style.

_Allegro appassionato_, op. 43 (1875).

Flute

Romance, op. 37 in D-flat major (1871). Also for violin.

_Odelette_, op. 162 in D major (1920).

Flute and Clarinet

_Tarantelle_, op. 6, in A minor (1857)

French Horn

Romance, op. 36 in F major. (1874)

Morceau de concert, op. 94 (1887). In two movements.

Harp

_Morceau de concert_, op. 154 in G major (1918).

Organ

_Cyprès et lauriers_, op. 156 (1919). This remarkable composition for organ and orchestra both mourns the fallen and lauds the victory in World War 1.

Seen as a whole, the series of non-concerto pieces for soloist(s) and orchestra by Saint-Saëns is notable for its variety of instruments, different types of compositions, and long time-span. The series surpasses that of any other composer; the only other one whose accomplishments in this area even come close is Max Bruch IMO.


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