# YOUR Reaction to Composer's Self-Acclaimed Best Works



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Is the Composer the best judge of their own music? 

I know Beethoven considered his Missa Solemnis his greatest work, but after immersing myself into it, I just don't see, or rather hear it, at an emotional or intellectual level as compared to some of his other works.

Shostakovich considered his Piano Sonata No. 2 his best for that instrument, but even his champion Emil Gilel's didn't think so highly of it. 

What's your reaction to works highly (or lowly) thought of by the composer that's in contrast to their own?


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## feierlich (3 mo ago)

Not necessarily. I guess you could say Missa solemnis is arguably Beethoven's greatest work, but when Mahler said his best work was the 8th I wouldn't agree with him. (He was probably just overwhelmed by the success and critical acclaim after the premiere.)

Related examples also include Mahler being not sure about the order of inner movements of his 6th while it's clear that Scherzo should be before Andante, which leads to the current "Mahler problem"; and Bruckner constantly editing his score which was just fine in the first place by any standard, which leads to the "Bruckner problem". I think composers are, like us, only human, and they don't have the ultimate say when it comes to judging their compositions. The best judge is always the music itself. To quote Richard Strauss:


> If my works are good and of any importance for the further development of our art, they will maintain their position in spite of all opposition on the part of critics, and in spite of all denigration of my artistic intentions. If they are worthtless, not even the most gratifying box office success or the most enthusiastic acclamation of augurs will keep them alive. Let the pulping press devour them...I shall not shed a tear over their grave.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Nice quote by Strauss. Hadn't heard that one before.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Maybe Beethoven regarded the _Missa Solemnis_ as his greatest work because it's sacred music?


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

ORigel said:


> Maybe Beethoven regarded the _Missa Solemnis_ as his greatest work because it's sacred music?


Yeah, I can't help but wonder that. Something from his religious faith. Or maybe its length.


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## verandai (Dec 10, 2021)

Gustav Mahler marked his 8th Symphony as the greatest work he ever made ("größtes was ich je gemacht habe"). I don't think he was referring to the orchestra size there, as this would have been too obvious and expressed differently.

Unlike the majority of TC members, this is also my favourite symphony! Therefore I tend to agree with him, although I haven't listened to all his other works. But at least when it comes to symphonies, I have the same feeling/taste.


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

Holst thought _Egdon Heath_ his best work, as did Vaughan Williams, but for all the tone poem's merits its 'mysterious monotony', as described by his daughter Imogen, has never been able to eclipse _The Planets_ in listeners' hearts.


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

ORigel said:


> Maybe Beethoven regarded the _Missa Solemnis_ as his greatest work because it's sacred music?


In a letter written in 1822 to his friend and secretary, Ferdinand Ries, Beethoven writes, "Mein grösstes Werk ist eine grosse Messe, die ich unlangst geschrieben habe…" (My greatest work is a grand Mass which I have recently composed…).

In 1822/23 Beethoven was in great financial difficulties, and he was trying hard to sell the Mass as lucratively as possible. Beethoven expresses the hope that Ries might be able to sell the work to a London publisher, as he urgently needs the money. Beethoven's great symphonies and concertos were a drag on the market: the most expensive for publishers to print, for the smallest circulation. Publishers earned a lot more money from "lesser" works, such as trios, violin sonatas, or less-difficult piano pieces. So it seems not unlikely that Beethoven's opinion of his recent massive work was meant to be communicated by Ries to any publisher he approached who expressed an interest in the work.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

But wouldn't this have been a rather transparent strategy for Ries and the publishers?

I don't think it is that far fetched that Beethoven (and Mahler likewise) were impressed by their own efforts with large forces on a large scale. One should also keep in mind that "groß" means both great/good as well as big. The quantitative meaning is hard to dispute in the case of the Missa solemnis but I do find it a bit disingenious to doubt Beethoven's comment as we now how much work he put into the work and we have also the personal remarks, including those written into the score (like "Von Herzen, möge es wieder zu Herzen gehen" etc.) 
I'd much rather see the reason that such opinions are not shared in the jaded nature of some listeners as well as general scepticism towards "greatness", especially when combined with large dimensions and forces or "outward grandiosity" today than in composer's hawking their wares.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Regarding the _Missa Solemnis_, I think it's also important to note that Beethoven called it his greatest work _in 1822_, before he finished the _Choral_ symphony and his late quartets, so it's possible to argue that later in his life, when he completed his oeuvre, he could consider any of these works as his best (in fact, if I recall correctly, later he claimed that Op. 125 was his greatest symphony and that Op. 131 was his greatest string quartet).

When a composer is very enthusiastic about a piece of his, usually I pay more attention to it, and even if I may not agree with him sometimes (example: Beethoven saying that his eighth symphony is better than the seventh) I will usually acknowledge that it's great music if I consider him a remarkable musician. If a great composer really thinks that a certain work was his best at a certain moment in his career, and if he argues this when he is already a mature composer, then I may even disagree with him, but I will respect this work and try to understand what made it so special to him.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Xisten267 said:


> Regarding the _Missa Solemnis_, I think it's also important to note that Beethoven called it his greatest work _in 1822_


His visitor Edward Shulz published an account in 1824 of a day spent with Beethoven in late September 1823. After providing many details of Beethoven's preferences in music, he wrote: "His second Mass he looks upon as his best work, I understood." https://books.google.ca/books?id=6a5kDQAAQBAJ&pg=PA153


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

There is no accounting for taste.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

There is clearly a difference of context between the flippant remark that the 8th was better than the 7th and the praise Beethoven had for the Missa solemnis and other large scale works (op.106 is another one). I don't see any problem disagreeing with a composer but I think it's problematic trying dissolve such disagreements by trying to cast doubts on the intention of such statements of the composers.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Kreisler jr said:


> But wouldn't this have been a rather transparent strategy for Ries and the publishers?


It seems to have gotten many to take the proposition seriously, hasn't it? Which means it is still effective in selling the work, no?



Kreisler jr said:


> I'd much rather see the reason that such opinions are not shared in the jaded nature of some listeners as well as general scepticism towards "greatness", especially when combined with large dimensions and forces or "outward grandiosity" today than in composer's hawking their wares.


Jaded? Some of us find the mass as a "musical" form to have outlived its welcome by 1550.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

EdwardBast said:


> Some of us find the mass as a "musical" form to have outlived its welcome by 1550.


How else should people after 1550 have had Catholic worship service then?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

I mean it's all subjective in the end. There's no Medieval/Renaissance liturgical work beating Mozart's requiem on youtube in popularity, (and it's up to you how you interpret the phenomenon). Berlioz, Tchaikovsky didn't really care for the Baroque and earlier music.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

You seriously think that when Beethoven called the work he probably worked longer on than on any other, that is his longest (except for Fidelio) and employs the largest vocal+instrumental forces his "greatest" it was mainly sales pitch? Why should there be anything to "explain away"? This approach would be plausible if he had called, say the 8th symphony or the "ghost trio" or whatever his greatest work because these would be really puzzling statements.
The comparison to renaissance masses is utterly beside the point. The point is Beethoven's (and maybe some contemporaries) stance towards his own works. There is no reason to assume that Beethoven was flippant or advertising when he made this remark and there are lots of reasons in addition to these remarks that support how important the Missa was for him and how highly he regarded the piece.

It's similar with Mahler's 8th. The premiere was a sensation, no additional sales pitch was needed and one would need pretty good reasons to support that the composer didn't mean what he said. 
This all looks like very selective skepticism to me. (I am not saying at all that we should all agree with these composers' statements but I think we should take them by their word in these cases.)


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

EdwardBast said:


> Some of us find the mass as a "musical" form to have outlived its welcome by 1550.


To me there's something about Classical period Catholic music that makes it stand out from that of the other periods in European music. It reminds me of-

_"We must grow down until we become like a child. Jesus' words are true, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God” (John 3:3), and “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 18:3)."_

more than that of the other periods. I don't expect you to "sympathize" with the sentiments. After all, (I suspect that) you have no interest in opera music of the period either.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Kreisler jr said:


> You seriously think that when Beethoven called the work he probably worked longer on than on any other, that is his longest (except for Fidelio) and employs the largest vocal+instrumental forces his "greatest" it was mainly sales pitch? Why should there be anything to "explain away"? This approach would be plausible if he had called, say the 8th symphony or the "ghost trio" or whatever his greatest work because these would be really puzzling statements.


I don't know if it was mainly sales pitch, if Beethoven's religious convictions skewed his assessment of its value, if he felt the natural impulse to confirm to himself that the time and effort put into it had been well spent … In general I rarely take composers' assessments of their own work at face value and I often don't take them seriously at all.



Kreisler jr said:


> The comparison to renaissance masses is utterly beside the point. The point is Beethoven's (and maybe some contemporaries) stance towards his own works. There is no reason to assume that Beethoven was flippant or advertising when he made this remark and there are lots of reasons in addition to these remarks that support how important the Missa was for him and how highly he regarded the piece.


There was no comparison to Renaissance masses. Otherwise I agree.



Kreisler jr said:


> It's similar with Mahler's 8th. The premiere was a sensation, no additional sales pitch was needed and one would need pretty good reasons to support that the composer didn't mean what he said. This all looks like very selective skepticism to me. (I am not saying at all that we should all agree with these composers' statements but *I think we should take them by their word in these cases*.)


As I've indicated, I don't. I think we should always be skeptical of any statement made around the time of a work's composition. Such statements are generally snapshots of opinion at a moment in time when composers are less likely to be cool and objective about a recent work.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

hammeredklavier said:


> To me there's something about Classical period Catholic music that makes it stand out from that of the other periods in European music. It reminds me of-
> 
> _"We must grow down until we become like a child. Jesus' words are true, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God” (John 3:3), and “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 18:3)."_
> 
> more than that of the other periods. I don't expect you to "sympathize" with the sentiments. After all, (I suspect that) you have no interest in opera music of the period either.


I enjoy some of Mozart's operas, but in general prefer late 19thc and 20thc opera.

Text is almost always important to me in vocal music. As one forced into Catholicism through threats and psychological abuse at a young age (and lapsed at age 14), I have an aversion to all aspects of the Mass text. Classical era and 19thc masses bore me to tears, including Beethoven's


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

feierlich said:


> Related examples also include Mahler being not sure about the order of inner movements of his 6th while it's clear that Scherzo should be before Andante, which leads to the current "Mahler problem"...


This is misleadingly stated. Mahler _was _ultimately sure about the order of the Andante and Scherzo, it's just that he changed his mind shortly before the premiere performance. After the premiere, he communicated the change to his publisher (Andante then Scherzo) and in fact there is zero reliable evidence that he ever again second-guessed the order. In his lifetime, the order he conducted was always Andante then Scherzo, and there are no sources from Mahler himself suggesting uncertainty once the change was made.

N.B. I can't stress this enough: Alma Mahler much later fomented canards about Mahler "being not sure" and that he supposedly was considering reversing the change, but she can in absolutely _no way whatsoever_ be considered a reliable source. She clearly wanted to promote the "tortured artist" narrative and literally invented wholesale numerous anecdotes in order to project her recreated image of Mahler for her own self-aggrandizement. 

The available evidence from Mahler himself is only that he made the change, and that once the change was made, he did not reverse it; but nor is there evidence that he ever considered reversing it.

As for the OP, I don't consider a composer's assessment of their own "greatest work" to be of any importance whatsoever.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

EdwardBast said:


> As one forced into Catholicism through threats and psychological abuse at a young age (and lapsed at age 14), I have an aversion to all aspects of the Mass text.


including other varieties of texts for Catholic music such as vespers, litanies, requiems, motets, canticles?


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