# Requiem vs. Requiem



## Tapkaara

Probably the two best-known and often recorded Requiems of the 19th century are Berlioz's and Verdi's. Which one do you prefer?

For me, it's the Berlioz. While I enjoy both works, Berlioz's is the more engaging. I can sit through all of the Berlioz whereas I usually have to take the Verdi in about two doses.

While the Verdi is harmonically more daring, I think the Berlioz is more melodic and thus falls a little easier on the ears.

This is not a "which is better," merely "which do you prefer?"


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## Mirror Image

Berlioz wins hands down, but of course, you didn't see that one coming, did you?


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## Tapkaara

Mirror Image said:


> Berlioz wins hands down, but of course, you didn't see that one coming, did you?


There were never any doubts, my dear Mirror.


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## World Violist

I don't know either! I've got some listening to do...


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## Mirror Image

World Violist said:


> I don't know either! I've got some listening to do...


Yes, you do, WV and Berlioz is some serious listening.


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## bdelykleon

Am I the only Verdi lover? Even though I like Berlioz a lot, his requiem sounds a bit weird to my ears, too much homophonic to my taste, too much ostinati, incredibly, Verdi is a more academical composer. I just love his power, he would become a stylist only later with Otello, but until then, he was a source of larger than life dramatic power, but it worked so well here, the Tuba Mirum is like a punch in the stomach, but I like it...

There is a famous recording of Toscanini shouting with the orchestra: _Più forte, più forte!_, it's so intense, I don't change it for nothing.


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## Mirror Image

bdelykleon said:


> Am I the only Verdi lover? Even though I like Berlioz a lot, his requiem sounds a bit weird to my ears, too much homophonic to my taste, too much ostinati, incredibly, Verdi is a more academical composer. I just love his power, he would become a stylist only later with Otello, but until then, he was a source of larger than life dramatic power, but it worked so well here, the Tuba Mirum is like a punch in the stomach, but I like it...
> 
> There is a famous recording of Toscanini shouting with the orchestra: _Più forte, più forte!_, it's so intense, I don't change it for nothing.


Berlioz's Requiem is a splendid piece of music. Verdi did a good job with his Requiem as well and it is, indeed, powerful, but it doesn't make me come away thinking about it. It's not thought-provoking like all the other requiems I've heard.

I just like Berlioz better as composer. He was much more original. His orchestrations are a sonic marvel. You can hear a few measures of Berlioz and know it is his music being played. That kind of distinction is truly remarkable.


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## bdelykleon

Mirror Image said:


> I just like Berlioz better as composer. He was much more original. His orchestrations are a sonic marvel. You can hear a few measures of Berlioz and know it is his music being played. That kind of distinction is truly remarkable.


I agree, but sometimes it doesn't work to me. Do you like his _Te Deum_?


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## Mirror Image

bdelykleon said:


> I agree, but sometimes it doesn't work to me. Do you like his _Te Deum_?


I like all of Berlioz's choral and orchestral works. For me, there's not a bad litter in the bunch.


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## Weston

I voted Verdi. I have yet to warm to Berlioz - even the Symphonie fantastique. So many people appreciate him, I know I'm just missing something. It'll click someday.

My favorite requiem is actually neither of these, but that's for another topic.


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## handlebar

Tough choice but Berlioz seems more "revolutionary" to me whereas Verdi plods along with common thematic material. Just my own opinion.

Jim


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## Bach

Oh my god Verdi. It's immense.


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## Herzeleide

Liszt's is better than either. 

I'm not keen on Berlioz's, and Verdi's is just hilariously bombastic (Fauré wrote his wonderful Requiem as a kind of riposte to Verdi).


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## Mirror Image

Herzeleide said:


> Liszt's is better than either.
> 
> I'm not keen on Berlioz's, and Verdi's is just hilariously bombastic (Fauré wrote his wonderful Requiem as a kind of riposte to Verdi).


Brahms wrote a beautiful Requiem too.


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## Herzeleide

Mirror Image said:


> Brahms wrote a beautiful Requiem too.


Good point! 

Yes, Brahms's is wonderful. How could I forget? I've sung bass in it.


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## Mirror Image

Herzeleide said:


> Good point!
> 
> Yes, Brahms's is wonderful. How could I forget? I've sung bass in it.


It's a beautiful piece that I wish was acknowledged more by the masses. By the way, you are correct about Faure. He wrote a beautiful requiem too.


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## bdelykleon

Mirror Image said:


> Brahms wrote a beautiful Requiem too.


But is requiem only in the name, it can't be a proper Requiem because doesn't follow the Roman Ordinary and is only a setting of some parts of the Bible (Ecclesiastes in most). This is not purism at all, because one of the ways we can compare Requies is to note how the composer musicated the famous verses of Jacopo da Todi, otherwise we should consider Requiem as well the funeral cantatas of Bach (BWV 106, 118, 198, 199 at least).

I don't think Verdi's Requiem is only bombastic. It is, and a lot, in the Tuba Mirum, but it has also its profound lyricism (Ingemisco, Agnus Dei), it is a complete Requiem, italianized, but that is what we should expect from Verdi's style (just like Liszt style is his overdone virtuosism). Also, I can't imagine an "ethereal" setting like Faurés can express what of words like _Confutatis maledictis flammis acribus addictis_ mean "the accused are damned and sent to the sharp flames (of Hell, obviously)".

My favorite Romantic requiem is this one, but another one I like a, and might not be known to most of you is João Domingos Bomtempo's REquiem (a portuguese composer), there is something in youtube:





 (it is not particularly well sung, though, but Virgin has a fine recording of it with Michael Corboz)


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## Mirror Image

bdelykleon said:


> But is requiem only in the name, it can't be a proper Requiem because doesn't follow the Roman Ordinary and is only a setting of some parts of the Bible (Ecclesiastes in most). This is not purism at all, because one of the ways we can compare Requies is to note how the composer musicated the famous verses of Jacopo da Todi, otherwise we should consider Requiem as well the funeral cantatas of Bach (BWV 106, 118, 198, 199 at least).
> 
> I don't think Verdi's Requiem is only bombastic. It is, and a lot, in the Tuba Mirum, but it has also its profound lyricism (Ingemisco, Agnus Dei), it is a complete Requiem, italianized, but that is what we should expect from Verdi's style (just like Liszt style is his overdone virtuosism). Also, I can't imagine an "ethereal" setting like Faurés can express what of words like _Confutatis maledictis flammis acribus addictis_ mean "the accused are damned and sent to the sharp flames (of Hell, obviously)".
> 
> My favorite Romantic requiem is this one, but another one I like a, and might not be known to most of you is João Domingos Bomtempo's REquiem (a portuguese composer), there is something in youtube:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (it is not particularly well sung, though, but Virgin has a fine recording of it with Michael Corboz)


But Brahms set out to write a different kind of requiem that wasn't going to follow the "guidelines" of a requiem. There are no rules in what constitutes a requiem. Look at Faure or Durufle. They didn't exactly follow the Mozart mold did they? Or course not, a requiem can mean a lot of different things to different people.


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## bdelykleon

Mirror Image said:


> But Brahms set out to write a different kind of requiem that wasn't going to follow the "guidelines" of a requiem. There are no rules in what constitutes a requiem. Look at Faure or Durufle. They didn't exactly follow the Mozart mold did they? Or course not, a requiem can mean a lot of different things to different people.


A piano sonata without a piano, wont be a piano sonata. The same happens to requiem, a requiem without _Requiem aeternam dona eis, Domine_, won't be a requiem. Simple. Brahms is only a beautiful meditation on death, but not a requiem.


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## Bach

Herzeleide said:


> Liszt's is better than either.
> 
> I'm not keen on Berlioz's, and Verdi's is just hilariously bombastic (Fauré wrote his wonderful Requiem as a kind of riposte to Verdi).


Liszt's requiem? I must seek that out..

Verdi's requiem is laughably bombastic - but I don't think he took it too seriously. That's why he's a lad and that piece is a rush!


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## bdelykleon

Bach said:


> Liszt's requiem? I must seek that out..
> 
> Verdi's requiem is laughably bombastic - but I don't think he took it too seriously. That's why he's a lad and that piece is a rush!


_Rex Tremendae _is so Aida...


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## Mirror Image

bdelykleon said:


> A piano sonata without a piano, wont be a piano sonata. The same happens to requiem, a requiem without _Requiem aeternam dona eis, Domine_, won't be a requiem. Simple. Brahms is only a beautiful meditation on death, but not a requiem.


Brahms's Requiem is still a requiem whether you like it or not.


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## JoeGreen

bdelykleon said:


> Am I the only Verdi lover? Even though I like Berlioz a lot, his requiem sounds a bit weird to my ears, too much homophonic to my taste, too much ostinati, incredibly, Verdi is a more academical composer. I just love his power, he would become a stylist only later with Otello, but until then, he was a source of larger than life dramatic power, but it worked so well here, the Tuba Mirum is like a punch in the stomach, but I like it...
> 
> There is a famous recording of Toscanini shouting with the orchestra: _Più forte, più forte!_, it's so intense, I don't change it for nothing.


Of course not, look at my avatar. 

Yay, i broke the tie. Verdi for the win! VIVA VERDI!

While Verdi wasn't the most innovative composer, he was economical and to the point, which is what I like about the piece as opposed to others.


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## JoeGreen

Bach said:


> Liszt's requiem? I must seek that out..
> 
> Verdi's requiem is laughably bombastic - but I don't think he took it too seriously. That's why he's a lad and that piece is a rush!


Heh, Of course he didn't take it seriously, he was agnostic or in his wife's words "a very doubtful believer" Which why the Requiem might sound more bombast and operatical than most, because Verdi is composing it from a different view point. He's not composing to praise the-whatever-in-the-sky, but to convey the emotion and drama OF the text. It's a religious work with out the religion.


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## andruini

I voted Fauré.


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## JAKE WYB

neither - the dvorak requiem is the one for me - i simply bore of the verdi


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## BuddhaBandit

How about Duruflé's? That's a nice, meditative piece. And I would easily take either Fauré's or Brahms' over either Berlioz or Verdi.

But, those aren't in the poll, so I voted for Berlioz. I like Verdi's operas quite a bit, but I've always though that his Requiem retains the grandness (some might say bombast) of his operas, but loses the dramatic intensity.

I just noticed that my vote makes it 6-6! We need a tiebreaker!


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## Mirror Image

Wa hoo...Berlioz is winning by one vote! Alright!


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## Sid James

I haven't heard all of either the Berlioz or Verdi. I've only heard bits, so won't vote...

But I will comment that I think that the Verdi seems very interesting, as he wrote it in an operatic style. I doubt that many composers had done this type of thing with liturgical music, although I do know that Gounod had some very operatic sacred works, like the _St Cecilia Mass_. And I also like Puccini's _Messa di gloria_, pretty operatic, but this is getting off track...


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## Mirror Image

Andre said:


> I haven't heard all of either the Berlioz or Verdi. I've only heard bits, so won't vote...
> 
> But I will comment that I think that the Verdi seems very interesting, as he wrote it in an operatic style. I doubt that many composers had done this type of thing with liturgical music, although I do know that Gounod had some very operatic sacred works, like the _St Cecilia Mass_. And I also like Puccini's _Messa di gloria_, pretty operatic, but this is getting off track...


Nah....Berlioz wins this one, Andre. I would be interested in knowing what Berlioz recordings you own.


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## bdelykleon

Andre said:


> I haven't heard all of either the Berlioz or Verdi. I've only heard bits, so won't vote...
> 
> But I will comment that I think that the Verdi seems very interesting, as he wrote it in an operatic style. I doubt that many composers had done this type of thing with liturgical music, although I do know that Gounod had some very operatic sacred works, like the _St Cecilia Mass_. And I also like Puccini's _Messa di gloria_, pretty operatic, but this is getting off track...


What is actually an "operatic" work? This is repeated like a mantra regarding this work, but I don't think Verdi's Requiem is any more operatic than Mozart's Requiem, Vespers, Masses, like I think Hanslick said, "let the Italians pray to God in their own language". This is Verdi's style, and I like it.


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## Aquos

Berlioz's requiem is soooooooo beautiful....


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## DaDirkNL

Verdi's Requiem is definitely my favourite.


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## Novelette

I wonder what would happen to the voting spread [and the voting count for that matter!] if we were to ignore the _Dies Irae_ movements in each. Perhaps nothing at all would change, but I still wonder.


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## Tristan

Wow. Dead even. Verdi's has always been my favorite, but I have also known it a lot longer than Berlioz's.


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## MagneticGhost

This Berlioz was recording of the month in the latest edition of BBC Music Magazine.









I've just listened to it on Spotify and it is IMMENSE.


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## Art Rock

If we only take conventional (Latin) requiems into account, I'd pick Faure as the clear winner, ahead of Verdi. Then ex aequo Berlioz, Dvorak and Saint Saens.

If we include non-conventional requiems, it is a tie between Brahms and Faure, two of the greatest masterpieces of all time (imo).


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## Neo Romanza

Berlioz's _Requiem_ is a masterpiece. I think much less of Verdi's _Requiem_, but I'm not a Verdi fan to begin with, so my opinion is rather biased.


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## tahnak

Berlioz's Requiem towers above any other Requiems followed by Brahms, Mozart, Dvorak, Saint Saens, Verdi, Faure and Karl Jenkins.


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