# How do you all rank Verdi's operas?



## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

I have seen less than half of them. I know that these things can vary with the productions and recordings one is familiar with, but for what it's worth, here is how I'd rank the ones I've seen:

1. La Traviata
2. Rigoletto
3. Otello
4. Aida
5. Macbeth
6. Don Carlos
7. Simon Boccanegra
8. Il Trovatore
9. Falstaff
10. Un ballo in maschera
11. Nabucco
12. I Lombardi

Important Verdi operas I haven't seen yet, but plan to:

Luisa Miller, La Forza del Destino, Ernani, Atilla, Les Vepres Siciliennes, Stiffelio

Others that are less commonly staged, and of which I have strictly no idea, and probably won't be seeing/listening to anytime soon:

Il Corsaro, Oberto, Un giorno di regno, I due Foscari, Giovanna D'Arco, Alzira, I Masnadien, La Bataglia di Legnano.

I'm not counting stuff like Jerusalem (re-writing of I Lombardi), Aroldo (re-writing of Stiffelio), and the various versions of Don Carlos/Don Carlo, Macbeth, Les vepres/I vespri, etc.

I know that musically speaking Otello and Falstaff are supposed to be more sophisticated than La Traviata and Rigoletto, but I still love these two most. I know some will find strange that I ranked Il Trovatore so low, but yes, it does less for me than some others.

Opinions?


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

-1 La Traviata
-2 Aida
-3 Don Carlos
-4 Otello
-5 Falstaff
-6 Il Trovatore
-7 Rigoletto
-8 La Forza del Destino
-9 Simon Boccanegra
10 Un Ballo in Maschera

This could could be different tomorrow of course. The're all so good.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Otello and Don Carlos are tops with me. Don Carlos particularly creates such an instantly recognisable soundscape. Then Traviata, then Rigoletto, Simon Boccanegra, Trovatore, Aida, La Forza del destino, Un Ballo in Maschera, Macbeth, Stiffelio, Ernani, Attila, but it's hard to rank them.

My worst confession is that so far I haven't managed to hear Falstaff to the end, I need to find an engaging production, the Met one just doesn't do it for me.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Not heard/seen Oberto, Giovanna d'Arco, Alzira, Les Vêpres Siciliennes or Aroldo (but do know Stiffelio).

Of the rest, I love them all so much I couldn't rank them but Simon Boccanegra has always been & will always be my favourite.

Several of the lesser known ones were recorded by Lamberto Gardelli including Un Giorno di Regno. This is the so called failure written at the most devastating time in his life. The stupid plot & sparkling music always makes me chuckle. If you like Rossini you'd like this.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

sospiro said:


> Not heard/seen Oberto, Giovanna d'Arco, Alzira, Les Vêpres Siciliennes or Aroldo (but do know Stiffelio).
> 
> Of the rest, I love them all so much I couldn't rank them but Simon Boccanegra has always been & will always be my favourite.
> 
> Several of the lesser known ones were recorded by Lamberto Gardelli including Un Giorno di Regno. This is the so called failure written at the most devastating time in his life. The stupid plot & sparkling music always makes me chuckle. If you like Rossini you'd like this.


Interesting. Yes, that's when his wife and two kids died and he still had to write a comedy, under contract with La Scala. Poor Verdi.

Wow, you seem to be the member here most exposed to Verdi's operas, impressive! You've seen some 23 of them!

How do you compare Verdi's lesser known operas to Mozart's lesser known operas? I know it's apples and oranges given style differenges, era differences, and age/maturity differences while composing them, but I'm just curious if you'd have something to say - which one of these two composers is more sure fire and does well (or better than the other one) even in minor works?

Of the 12 operas of Verdi I've seen, I love or or at least very much like 11 of them, and only I Lombardi didn't impress me as favorably, although there are still several enjoyable moments there.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> Wow, you seem to be the member here most exposed to Verdi's operas, impressive! You've seen some 23 of them!


Listened to rather than seen. I've only recently started on the financially ruinous road to enjoying DVDs. 



Almaviva said:


> How do you compare Verdi's lesser known operas to Mozart's lesser known operas? I know it's apples and oranges given style differences, era differences, and age/maturity differences while composing them, but I'm just curious if you'd have something to say - which one of these two composers is more sure fire and does well (or better than the other one) even in minor works?


I'm afraid I don't know Mozart's work well enough to compare. There are several reasons why I love Verdi's music so much. I find it sublime of course but it's also because of the man himself, his life, loves and tragedies & his politics. He lived in a time of great political turmoil & was famous for supporting a united Italy. I find it fascinating to place the operas in historical context. For example, La Battaglia di Legnano was mainly written for propaganda purposes.



Almaviva said:


> Of the 12 operas of Verdi I've seen, I love or or at least very much like 11 of them, and only I Lombardi didn't impress me as favorably, although there are still several enjoyable moments there.


11 out of 12 is a lot more than most people


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

I don't know even half of them but of those that I've heard Otello is easy choice for number one. And Karajan's DVD with Vickers and Freni is one of most spectacular opera DVDs ever. Those chills when the choir sings at the beginning while awaiting the ship to safely reach the shore and on the screen along with the people at port they shows ship fighting it's ways through the waves. And then Vickers enter the scene with REJOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOICE and kewl sword to wave around.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Aramis said:


> I don't know even half of them but of those that I've heard Otello is easy choice for number one. And Karajan's DVD with Vickers and Freni is one of most spectacular opera DVDs ever. Those chills when the choir sings at the beginning while awaiting the ship to safely reach the shore and on the screen along with the people at port they shows ship fighting it's ways through the waves. And then Vickers enter the scene with REJOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOICE and kewl sword to wave around.


Yep, Otello is pretty impressive. Excellent choice!


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

For me, it's sort of like-

Tier 1: *La Traviata*, *Aida*

Tier 2: *Rigoletto*, *Il Trovatore*

Tier 3: _Forza_, _Ballo_, _Falstaff_

Tier 4: Otello.

Then, the rest of 'em...


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Chi_townPhilly said:


> For me, it's sort of like-
> 
> Tier 1: *La Traviata*, *Aida*
> 
> ...


Crickey, Don Carlos not even in there!


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

I'm not going to rank. It's injustice! But the ones listed above are all standard favourites. _Don Carlos_, _La Traviata_ and _Rigoletto_ seem to have a slight edge for me. But Verdi was surely the top five greatest opera composer of all times anyway.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

My favourite is possibly Les Vespres Siciliennes. 

Its relatively unknown, lacks the catchy tunes of La Traviata e.g. But what can i say? Its grand opera at its finest.

There is currently a staging here in amsterdam which has received very critical reviews for its staging and set.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

emiellucifuge said:


> My favourite is possibly Les Vespres Siciliennes.
> 
> Its relatively unknown, lacks the catchy tunes of La Traviata e.g. But what can i say? Its grand opera at its finest.
> 
> There is currently a staging here in amsterdam which has received very critical reviews for its staging and set.


 I'm so pleased I'm not the only one who likes the lesser known ones.

Vespres is on my list to get next.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

sospiro said:


> I'm so pleased I'm not the only one who likes the lesser known ones.
> 
> Vespres is on my list to get next.


I'm willing to explore more of the lesser known ones so I may join the team soon.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

emiellucifuge said:


> My favourite is possibly Les Vespres Siciliennes.


It came with my La Scala box set, so it's also in the queue for me. The only problem is that I'm not really enjoying any of these productions.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I've heard all of them on recordings except for the first one Oberto, and Jerusalem,the French language reworking of I lombardi. 
Without a doubt, the greatest are Verdi's last several, such as Falstaff,Aida and Don Carlo, but all of them are very much worth hearing and seeing. The early ones have their crude and formulaic moments, but can still be very exciting in a first rate performance.
If you're unfortunate enough to hear a lackluster one, they can seem banal and even dull at times. So much depends on the performers,particularly the conductor. 
I've recently seen DVDs of I Vespri Sciliani and Attila conducted by Muti at la Scala, and Giovanna D'Arco,a highly fictionalized version of the life of Joan of Arc conducted by Riccardo Chailly. All three are excellent.
I would say that Macbeth,or Macbetto, is the most interesting and original of the early operas.


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## Keikobad (Jul 9, 2010)

*'Tis true*

I am not a great fan of Italian opera (works by Monteverdi and Cavalli excepted, of course). However, within the Verdi canon there is but one opera which I would insist on taking with me to the proverbial desert isle.

And that is Don Carlos (en français, s'il vous plait).


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Keikobad said:


> I am not a great fan of Italian opera (works by Monteverdi and Cavalli excepted, of course). However, within the Verdi canon there is but one opera which I would insist on taking with me to the proverbial desert isle.
> 
> And that is Don Carlos (en français, s'il vous plait).


Don Carlo *is* amazing, although I'd still prefer the Italian version.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> Don Carlo *is* amazing, although I'd still prefer the Italian version.


I like the 5 act French version, preferably with despairing peasants at the beginning, so that you get a full understanding of Elisabetta's decision to marry Philip for the sake of peace and the people.


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## JSK (Dec 31, 2008)

mamascarlatti said:


> It came with my La Scala box set, so it's also in the queue for me. The only problem is that I'm not really enjoying any of these productions.


I enjoyed William Tell, but the production was rather odd.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> I like the 5 act French version, preferably with despairing peasants at the beginning, so that you get a full understanding of Elisabetta's decision to marry Philip for the sake of peace and the people.


I hear you but I have a bias for the Italian language. Yes, the mutilated first act is a problem, but most of the time the booklet will give the listener the full story and people will hear it knowing that the Italian version starts a little ahead.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

OK, I saw two more, _La Forza del Destino_, and _Luisa Miller. _I really loved the latter. What a beautiful, beautiful opera, with very touching scenes. I liked _Forza _but not as much. I'd insert these two in my ranking this way:

1. La Traviata
2. Rigoletto
3. Otello
4. Aida
5. Macbeth
6. Don Carlos
7. Luisa Miller
8. Simon Boccanegra
9. Il Trovatore
10. Falstaff
11. La Forza del Destino
12. Un ballo in maschera
13. Nabucco
14. I Lombardi


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## Lyricsop (Oct 21, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> I have seen less than half of them. I know that these things can vary with the productions and recordings one is familiar with, but for what it's worth, here is how I'd rank the ones I've seen:
> 
> 1. La Traviata
> 2. Rigoletto
> ...


I have had the pleasure of seeing both Rigetto and La Traviata, I agree with you these are my two favorite Verdi opera's.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

mamascarlatti said:


> My worst confession is that so far I haven't managed to hear Falstaff to the end, I need to find an engaging production, the Met one just doesn't do it for me.


I watched it a few days ago and I loved it.........One of those Zeffirelli productions we disagree about.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

jhar26 said:


> I watched it a few days ago and I loved it.........One of those Zeffirelli productions we disagree about.


Falstaff is a great opera musically speaking, and is reasonable theater, but although I recognize the quality of the score, it's not among my very favorite Verdis. I have the old Karajan production that I wouldn't recommend to Natalie because there is nothing special about it, but at least there is nothing too bad either.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

I have this one but wasn't impressed.










I may get another one eventually but I do prefer listening to this opera.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

So far I have only heard four Verdi operas. Here is how I rank them:



1. Il Trovatore

2. Aroldo

3. Simon Boccanegra

4. Jerusalem 


I have ordered, but not yet heard, La Battaglia di Legnano.



EDIT: Oh wow, this is an old thread!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Fritz Kobus said:


> So far I have only heard four Verdi operas. Here is how I rank them:
> 
> 1. Il Trovatore
> 
> ...


The thread _is_ old, and there have been iterations of the same topic since, but since I'm just hanging around here with nothing worthwhile to do, here goes...

I have to make three lists. The first list is of the ones I know pretty well:

Otello
Falstaff
La Traviata
Macbeth (with Callas)
Rigoletto
Un Ballo in Maschera
Il Trovatore
Aida
La Forza del Destino
Macbeth (without Callas)

These I know less well, so I'm tentative about the order:

Don Carlo
Simon Boccanegra
Ernani
Nabucco

These I hardly know at all, except for an aria or two, so I can't really rank them:

I Vespri Siciliani
Luisa Miller
Stiffelio
Attila
I Lombardi

The rest I'm totally unfamiliar with.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Fritz Kobus said:


> So far I have only heard four Verdi operas. Here is how I rank them:
> 
> 1. Il Trovatore
> 
> ...


I am sure this list will change in about 6 months time. 
Any way:
Don Carlo / La Traviata , both lonely at the top.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

This is largely by order of composition:

*Favourite three*
Don Carlos
Aida
Otello

*Excellent*
Macbeth
Rigoletto
Un ballo in maschera

*Good*
I due Foscari
Luisa Miller
Stiffelio
Il trovatore
Simon Boccanegra
La forza del destino

*Average*
Oberto, conte di San Bonifacio
Un giorno di regno
Nabucco
I Lombardi
Ernani (fun but unconvincing story)
Giovanna d'Arco
Il corsaro
Les vêpres siciliennes
Falstaff

*Don't like*
Attila
I masnadieri

*Don't know (well enough)* 
Jérusalem
La battaglia di Legnano
Alzira
La traviata ! ! ! !


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

1. Otello
2. Don Carlo
3. Aida
4. Rigoletto
5. La Traviata


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

OK here we go  As one of the, I believe, resident Verdi fanatics: 

1) Don Carlo & Aida. 
3) La Traviata
4) Rigoletto
5) Requiem
6) Simon Boccanegra
7) Il Trovatore
8) Otello
9) Un Ballo in Mascera
10) La Forza Del Destino.

These top ten are pretty well set in stone. There may be some slight shuffling a spot or two but I've done a LOT of thinking and a LOT of listening to make the top ten list. The next ones may fluctuate more but are a fairly good view of where I'm at now:

11) I Du Foscari
12) Falstaff
13) Un Giorno Di Regno
14) Nabucco
15) Giovanna D'arco

15) I Lombardi
16) Jerusalem
17) Macbeth
18) Stiffelio
19) Atilla

20) Luisa Miller 
21) La Battaglia Di Legnano
22) Aroldo
23) Ernani
24) Alzira

25) Oberto
26) Il Corsaro
27) I Masnadieri

A couple of notes: I've only listened to Aroldo and Jerusalem once each. I may in fact end up liking them better than Stiffelio and Lombardi eventually, I don't know. I feel Jersualem is probably stronger musically, and it's nice to have a Verdi opera in French. But for now I'm keeping Lombardi higher, perhaps primarily because I like the recording I have with Placido Domingo. 

My very favorite Verdi operas of course blend drama with music, but as you go outside of the top ten I based my opinions on the music moreso than the drama. I Masnadieri is notable in that it has one of my favorite Verdi overtures, but I otherwise rank it quite low. Largely because one of the deaths at the end just doesn't gel with me. Similarily Ernani is ranked low partly because the title characters end strikes me as ridiculous. Maybe they'll make more sense when I watch them. 

Let me be clear though, I find ALL of Verdi's operas worthy of my time and other than one listen to Jerusalem and Aroldo apiece so far, I have listened to every other Verdi opera at least three times


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

Verdi is who got me into opera, through _Traviata_. I bought a few more of his and moved on and went years and years without listening to Verdi. Then I bought the DECCA box set with all the operas, and the love affair was reborn. My favorites are _Traviata_, _Trovatore_, _Don Carlos_, _Simon Boccanegra_, _Nabucco_, my newest love _Il Corsaro_. I couldn't rank them, but I'd say _Trovatore_ is my biggest love of the Verdi lot.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I think it's interesting that two of the operas with the dopiest plots - _Ernani_ and _Il Trovatore_ - have held the boards mainly because they overflow with whopping good tunes. That isn't enough to make them favorites of mine among Verdi's works, but I do enjoy hearing great singers in their arias. _Ernan_i in particular is a "singer's opera," a late product of the "bel canto" tradition. Everyone should be familiar with Mattia Battistini's matchless 1906 and 1913 recordings of the baritone role of Don Carlos:





















Then there's Ezio Pinza as Don Ruy Gomez de Silva:






And Rosa Ponselle as Elvira:






If we had singers like this now, _Ernani_ would certainly still be part of the standard repertoire and we'd get a break from third-rate Aidas and Bohemes.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

NickFuller said:


> This is largely by order of composition:


It was all going so well until I saw where Falstaff located. I'll use your format, if I may, for my own opinions.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Rigoletto
Un Giorno di Regno
Fslstaff


the rest


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

*Favourite two* 
Otello
Falstaff
_In their distinctive ways both of these (Verdi's last two written in his 70's) are of such exceptional quality in all respects that they must stand apart.
_
*Excellent*
Rigoletto
Il trovatore
La traviata
Aida
Don Carlos
_Tunes, tunes, tunes, tunes, and more great tunes, and great drama and emotion too._

*Good*
Nabucco
Macbeth
Stiffelio
Les vêpres siciliennes
Un ballo in maschera
La forza del destino
Simon Boccanegra
_These are quality works, but I can't put them alongside the Excellent_

*Worthwhile*
Ernani
Luisa Miller
_These are worth seeing, some notable arias_

*Seen and unimpressed, or don't know*
Oberto, conte di San Bonifacio
Un giorno di regno
I Lombardi
Giovanna d'Arco
Il corsaro
Attila
I masnadieri
I due Foscari
Jérusalem
La battaglia di Legnano
Alzira


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Don Carlo
Otello
Rigoletto
Il trovatore
La forza del destino
Un ballo in maschera
La traviata


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

Don Fatale said:


> It was all going so well until I saw where Falstaff located. I'll use your format, if I may, for my own opinions.


By all means! Maybe I should call _Falstaff_ a work I need to know better; I've heard a few recordings - including Toscanini's - and seen a couple of films, and it doesn't *grab* me the way, say, _Don Carlos_, _Otello_, _Rigoletto_, or _Ballo_ do.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Falstaff is for me the greatest of all Verdi operas with its miraculous score and Boito's masterly libretto. Seems that all Verdi's genius is distilled into this piece. A libretto here are important (for non-Italian speakers) as Falstaff tends to indulge in word play. It also really needs to be seen as well as heard to catch the comedy. Sadly there are some pretty grim and unimaginative productions around.

One of the best was Robert Carsen's - heard at the Met and Covent Garden with Maestri the definitive modern Falstaff. It's updated to Elizabeth II's England but don't let that worry you - it never gets run the way of Verdi's genius.

And of course, Verdi reminds his at the end not to take opera too seriously - even his own. We've all been fooled!


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

My list of Verdi's favorites, as of March, 2018:


1. La Traviata
2. Aida
3. Otello
4. Simon Boccanegra
5. Il Trovatore
6. Rigoletto
7. Falstaff
8. Un ballo in maschera
9. Don Carlo
10. I due Foscari
11. Luisa Miller
12. Ernani
13. Nabucco
14. La forza del destino
15. Attila
16. Macbeth
17. I vespri siciliani
18. I Lombardi alla prima crociata
19. Stiffelio
20. Giovanna d'Arco
21. I masnadieri
22. Alzira
23. Il corsaro
24. La batagglia di Legnano
25. Oberto
26. Un giorno di regno


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

DavidA said:


> Falstaff is for me the greatest of all Verdi operas with its miraculous score and Boito's masterly libretto. Seems that all Verdi's genius is distilled into this piece. A libretto here are important (for non-Italian speakers) as Falstaff tends to indulge in word play. It also really needs to be seen as well as heard to catch the comedy. Sadly there are some pretty grim and unimaginative productions around.
> 
> One of the best was Robert Carsen's - heard at the Met and Covent Garden with Maestri the definitive modern Falstaff. It's updated to Elizabeth II's England but don't let that worry you - it never gets run the way of Verdi's genius.
> 
> And of course, Verdi reminds his at the end not to take opera too seriously - even his own. We've all been fooled!


I agree on all points, except I didn't find Carsen's production up to his usual standard, and some normally very funny episodes went for nothing (e.g. when Falstaff appears after Ford's aria). I saw a small touring company version a few weeks before the Covent Garden visit and enjoyed it more, particularly the acting. Falstaff seems to work very well in intimate venues.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Update to insert La Battaglia di Legnano. Gaps between roughly represent how distant the next one follows:

1. Il Trovatore

2. Aroldo


3. Simon Boccanegra









4. La Battaglia di Legnano



5. Jerusalem


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## mjohnh18 (Apr 13, 2017)

I'm a Verdi fanatic. He's by far my favorite composer. I also sing a lot of his music as well. Ranking his operas is very difficult, since my familiarity with his operas varies. I find that the more familiar I am with his work, the more I like it.

Here's my ranking of the ones I know very well:

1. Aida
2. La Traviata
3. Otello
4. Rigoletto
5. Il Trovatore

These are the ones I have listened to many times, but I'm not an expert.

1. Un Ballo in Maschera
2. Simon Boccanegra
3. Luisa Miller
4. I Vespri Siciliani
5. Ernani
6. La forza del Destino
7. Nabucco

The rest I have not listened to that much, so I think it would be unfair to give a ranking


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## Khalling (Apr 29, 2018)

I am new to listening to operas but I have heard three of Verdi’s operas, Rigoletto, Luisa Miller, and La Traviatta and I prefer them in that order so far. I am surprised that Luisa Miller is not higher in folks rankings as I found the music quite beautiful, more so than La Traviatta.


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## akhchew (Sep 14, 2011)

For me

Favorites - Aida/La Forza Del Destino (Multiple versions on CD/DVD and always on the look out for more. Tickets bought asap.)

Rounding up the top 10 (I'd watch these if on though wouldn't rush)

3. Il Trovatore
4. La Traviata
5. Rigoletto
6. Un Ballo de Maschera
7. Luisa Miller
8. Otello
9. I Lombardi
10. Falstaff

As for the rest I'd listen to parts but wouldn't rush to see them if on.


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## damianjb1 (Jan 1, 2016)

Don Carlo - 5 acts in Italian
Aida
La Forza del Destino
La Traviata
Otello
Macbeth


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

1. Aida
2. La Traviata
3, Il Trovatore ( stupid opera with the most splendid music)
4. Un ballo
5. Verdi Requiem
6. Rigoletto
7. Stiffelio
8. Macbeth


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I could rank them by the number of anvils employed. Come to think of it, Wagner's could be ranked that way too.


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## Sauvee (Feb 5, 2018)

Of the ones that I know:
Rigoletto
Don Carlos
Il trovatore
Attila
Aside from that, I've listened to la traviata, Otello, and various parts of a few of the others, but wouldn't say I know enough to place them just yet. I only realised just how much I liked Verdi's music in the last couple months, so definitely planning to get familiar with a few more in the near future.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

Of those I have actually seen live or on video (I'm not counting the ones I have only heard on recording):


1. Don Carlo 
2. Il trovatore
3. Un ballo in maschera
4. Rigoletto 
5. La forza del destino 
6. Otello
7. Simon Boccanegra
8. Ernani 
9. Aida 
10. La Traviata
11. Nabucco 
12. I lombardi


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Everything he wrote from *Rigoletto* onwards is indispensable for me, and I'd find it hard to say which of these operas would be my favourite, though I'd probably place *I Vespri Siciliani* last, and *Don Carlos* somewhere near the top.

Of the pre-Rigoletto operas,

1.Macbeth
2.Stiffelio
3.Luisa Miller
4.La Battaglia di Legnano
5.Nabucco
and the others all about equal.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

I can rank three groups, but ranking within those groups is very difficult. 

1. Otello
2. Don Carlos
3. Falstaff

^ These are all 10/10 for me and I have difficulty ranking them because what I love about them are all so different. Otello for its dramatic density and profound emotions enhanced by probably Verdi's most gripping and dramatically meaningful music; Don Carlos for its richness and complexity (even messiness) and all the moments of glorious beauty and tragedy and triumph; Falstaff for its near perfect comedic pacing and luminous music of an almost Mozartean perfection. Ask me tomorrow I could easily rate them differently. 

4. La Traviata
5. Rigoletto
6. Aida

^ I think this trio is a bit easier to rank, but much as with the above trio I like all of them for different reasons. La Traviata is my favorite for tunefulness and for its lead characterization; Rigoletto for its moving drama; Aida for its grandness and those closing moments especially. Perhaps not as "perfect" as the lead trio, but all tremendously great. 

7. Macbeth
8. La Forza
9. Il Trovatore
10. Un Ballo

^ And again I find these very difficult to rank. I think Macbeth is among his best in terms of characters/drama, but the music is, for me, less memorable than his best. Il Trovatore is memorable, but it's also a bit bombastic and noisy and dramatically silly. Forza and Ballo I think are both great in moments and weaker in others. All are still high quality operas, if just not top tier as his others.


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## Madiel (Apr 25, 2018)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> Il Trovatore is memorable, but it's also a bit bombastic and noisy and dramatically silly.


Il Trovatore is the quintessential Verdi experience (Rigoletto and Traviata coming close), I see a lot of people here who are sophisticated enough to put Falstaff or Otello at the top of their preferences, it makes no sense to me, it is just like saying that the White Album is the best work by The Beatles, how can it be the best when what makes them great is barely in it? 
Dramatically silly? Verdi wanted it that way, I don't mean silly, he wanted it bizarre, exaggerated and I guess that the Trovatore experience varies a lot if the listener can understand Italian, Cammarano's libretto is a masterpiece in its own right, lush and vivid Italian.
So for me is:

1 - Trovatore
2 - Rigoletto
3 - Traviata

as for the rest, an anthology of choruses and arias will suffice, though I intend to revisit Vespri Siciliani sooner or later, when I was a kid it was the first Verdi's music to impress me.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> I can rank three groups, but ranking within those groups is very difficult.
> 
> 1. Otello
> 2. Don Carlos
> ...


I'm with you on your top five, though not in that order. I'll have

1. _Otello_
2. _Falstaff_

They're both masterpieces, as perfect as any operas by anyone, and the only ones by anyone that can vie with Wagner's mature works for my esteem. After them, I'll go for _Traviata, Don Carlo(s)_ and _Rigoletto_ in no particular order, but I'm only interested if the performances are truly superb. I've never been sufficiently drawn in by the rest of Verdi's operas to consider how I'd rate them (which is as much my doing as Verdi's, I'm sure), but when Callas is Lady Macbeth it's my favorite Verdi of all for as long as the performance lasts. I do have an affection for _Un Ballo in Maschera_, having seen it on TV in my impressionable years and having an indelible visual memory of spooky old Ulrica. I also liked _Aida_ a lot back then, but have become indifferent to it.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Madiel said:


> Il Trovatore is the quintessential Verdi experience (Rigoletto and Traviata coming close), I see a lot of people here who are sophisticated enough to put Falstaff or Otello at the top of their preferences, it makes no sense to me, it is just like saying that the White Album is the best work by The Beatles, how can it be the best when what makes them great is barely in it?
> Dramatically silly? Verdi wanted it that way, I don't mean silly, he wanted it bizarre, exaggerated and I guess that the Trovatore experience varies a lot if the listener can understand Italian, Cammarano's libretto is a masterpiece in its own right, lush and vivid Italian.
> So for me is:
> 
> ...


Stravinsky agreed with you. He liked the clear tunefulness of early Verdi. I suppose _Otello_ seemed too much like his favorite whipping boy, Wagner; I believe he remarked that the latter's "endless melody" never should have begun in the first place.

Still... I wonder how many people go around humming _Oedipus Rex?_


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

Madiel said:


> Il Trovatore is the quintessential Verdi experience (Rigoletto and Traviata coming close), I see a lot of people here who are sophisticated enough to put Falstaff or Otello at the top of their preferences, it makes no sense to me, it is just like saying that the White Album is the best work by The Beatles, how can it be the best when what makes them great is barely in it?
> Dramatically silly? Verdi wanted it that way, I don't mean silly, he wanted it bizarre, exaggerated and I guess that the Trovatore experience varies a lot if the listener can understand Italian, Cammarano's libretto is a masterpiece in its own right, lush and vivid Italian.
> So for me is:
> 
> ...


What about Il Trovatore do you think makes it "quintessentially" Verdi? I'm not sure if I could point to a quality I'd single out as quintessentially Verdi; one thing I actually appreciate about his ouevre is the range of operatic experiences it offers. Personally, "sophistication" was nowhere in my mind when I put Falstaff and Otello at/near the top of my list. The latter is one of the few works in any genre that never fails to move me to tears, and the former is right there with Mozart's comic masterpieces and Rossini's Barbiere as my absolute favorite comedy. Almost reminds me of Ingmar Bergman's Smiles of a Summer Night: two works so good they make me wish their creators made more comedies! (Well, Bergman did make other comedies, though one of them was quite terrible).

As for Il Trovatore, it's entirely possible Verdi wanted it all that way; he did have a taste for the bizarre, exaggeration, bombast, etc. Perhaps it's just that I feel that Il Trovatore is TOO much of those things. I also think Aida inches close to that "too much" line as well, but I also think its finest moments are finer than Il Trovatre's. You may be right that it's significantly better if one understands Italian (I do not).

I'm also curious as to why you think The White Album contains little of what makes The Beatles great. It's actually my least favorite of their mature albums (excepting Let It Be), but it sounds utterly Beatles-esque to me: great diversity in instrumentation and songwriting, lots of quirkiness and humor, lots of experimentation, great melodies and hooks, a few moments of seriousness/heaviness balancing the general levity/lightness. In a way, The White Album is the closest The Beatles came to saying "this is everything we are with nothing left out." Still, give me Abbey Road, Rubber Soul, Revolver, Sgt. Pepper's, and Magical Mystery Tour any day.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> I'm with you on your top five, though not in that order. I'll have
> 
> 1. _Otello_
> 2. _Falstaff_
> ...


I'd have to give it some thought, but if we're comparing Wagner and Verdi I'd say my top three Verdi and my top three Wagner (Tristan, Ring, Parsifal) are comparable, while adding that Tristan is easily my #1--very few works of art have ever done to me what it did, and continues to do. After that, I also think my second Verdi trio competes with Lohengrin, Tannhauser, and Meistersinger; as these are all works I like/love, but in which I don't find as perfect/great as the top three. Still, Wagner definitely has the edge for me, in part because he owned my world for months in a way Verdi didn't. Verdi is just a composer I can turn to any time and enjoy, even when I'm dipping into his lesser works. Most Verdi is at least enjoyable as his gift for melody was always there, and there's plenty of gems sprinkled throughout his works. I do agree about how great Callas is in Macbeth, though. She's the biggest reason Macbeth is as high as it is on my list. I also rather enjoyed Netrebko in the role; though vocally Callas is better, watching Netrebko act it was great fun.


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## Madiel (Apr 25, 2018)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> What about Il Trovatore do you think makes it "quintessentially" Verdi?


I'll copy and paste what Woodduck has reported as being Stravinsky's opinion in the previous post: the clear tunefulness of early Verdi.
The three operas that I have listed represent the apotheosis of Verdi's style, later - unavoidably, being Verdi a true Italian - when Wagner came around he started feeling fully inadequate as an opera composer and spent the rest of his career trying to achieve in his own way some kind of German greatness (no speculation here, it is a well known fact). Being myself Italian, I deeply dislike this trait of the Italian character but even forgetting this "political" stance, the simple fact is that when years ago I arrived to Falstaff ... what can I say? it was one of the saddest musical experiences of my life, the Verdi that I loved wasn't around anymore.
Why quintessential? because it is a fact that what made Verdi Verdi (world wide popular and still keeping his name dominating opera houses to this day) were those early works, the essential character of his musical voice is there and not in his later works.
Let me add that usually I appreciate an artist evolving during a lifelong career, as much as I adore Rossini's Barber - and I adore it indeed, I was ten years old, it was my first time at the opera and it was a defining experience - I have come to prefer his later works, not necessarily the futuristic Guillaume Tell, I appreciate a lot even Elisabetta or Otello. Why is that? I don't know, I guess that no matter Rossini's growth as a composer, even in Guillaume Tell Rossini's quintessence is still there, he may be mature and ready to retire, but his musical vision has remained the same, it has been enriched by experience but it has not lost his distinctive character (and this still rings true for a late masterpiece like petite messe solennelle).


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

But I find *Falstaff* _is_ quintessentially Italian, and a distillation of all Verdi's genius. In some ways it's the most tuneful of all his works, but the tunes come so fast and furious that it can be quite hard to catch hold of them. So fecund is his inspiration that there is no need for him to overwork any of those tunes. The more I listen to the opera, the more I'm amazed at its sheer invention, its lightness of touch, its incredible _joie de vivre_ and melodic plenitude, all from a man in his eighties. It's little short of staggering!


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## Madiel (Apr 25, 2018)

what you have written GregMitchell sounds almost like a leitmotiv (some sort of poor pun intended) that I have heard endless times from all the people who love Falstaff that I have met in my life, what can I say? Verdi is that rare occasion when my taste coincides with the taste of the general public :devil:


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

Madiel said:


> I'll copy and paste what Woodduck has reported as being Stravinsky's opinion in the previous post: the clear tunefulness of early Verdi.
> The three operas that I have listed represent the apotheosis of Verdi's style, later - unavoidably, being Verdi a true Italian - when Wagner came around he started feeling fully inadequate as an opera composer and spent the rest of his career trying to achieve in his own way some kind of German greatness (no speculation here, it is a well known fact). Being myself Italian, I deeply dislike this trait of the Italian character but even forgetting this "political" stance, the simple fact is that when years ago I arrived to Falstaff ... what can I say? it was one of the saddest musical experiences of my life, the Verdi that I loved wasn't around anymore.
> Why quintessential? because it is a fact that what made Verdi Verdi (world wide popular and still keeping his name dominating opera houses to this day) were those early works, the essential character of his musical voice is there and not in his later works.


While I do not deny the influence of Wagner on late Verdi, I can't agree that late Verdi lost his tunefulness; I simply think his approach to tunefulness changed. What GregMitchell said seems absolutely true to me; that Falstaff is positively chock-full of tunes. You may call these leitmotifs, but who said a leitmotif couldn't also be a good tune? Perhaps there's a bit of bias in thinking of "tunes" in terms of the long, flowing bel canto melodies supplemented by the typical repeats of most standalone arias? I do not deny there's much of that in early Verdi, but even in early Verdi I hear a much greater effort at integrating that "bel canto" approach with the drama, so that it isn't just tunefulness for the sake of tunefulness, but dramatically relevant tunefulness. La donna è mobile, for all of its tunefulness, is a wonderful exposition of the Duke's personality, and serves as great contrast with the tragedy that's to come.

I think what Verdi saw in Wagner was that the more through-composed style allowed for a greater sense of uninterrupted, continuous drama, and it was that aspect that appealed to him. I don't think Verdi would've changed his style just to show Wagner that he was capable of competing in that style; I think he very much liked what Wagner's approach offered dramatically. In the case of Otello, I might agree that the approach loses something in its tunefulness (though I don't find it any less musically memorable than, say, Macbeth), but in terms of drama I think it's Verdi's finest (even on par with Shakespeare's play). With Falstaff, I think Verdi lost neither tunefulness nor drama (or comedy, in that case), even if the tunefulness is more continuously flowing than in the more sectionalized approach of his early work.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> While I do not deny the influence of Wagner on late Verdi, I can't agree that late Verdi lost his tunefulness; I simply think his approach to tunefulness changed. What GregMitchell said seems absolutely true to me; that Falstaff is positively chock-full of tunes. You may call these leitmotifs, but who said a leitmotif couldn't also be a good tune? Perhaps there's a bit of bias in thinking of "tunes" in terms of the long, flowing bel canto melodies supplemented by the typical repeats of most standalone arias? I do not deny there's much of that in early Verdi, but even in early Verdi I hear a much greater effort at integrating that "bel canto" approach with the drama, so that it isn't just tunefulness for the sake of tunefulness, but dramatically relevant tunefulness. La donna è mobile, for all of its tunefulness, is a wonderful exposition of the Duke's personality, and serves as great contrast with the tragedy that's to come.
> 
> I think what Verdi saw in Wagner was that the more through-composed style allowed for a greater sense of uninterrupted, continuous drama, and it was that aspect that appealed to him. I don't think Verdi would've changed his style just to show Wagner that he was capable of competing in that style; I think he very much liked what Wagner's approach offered dramatically. In the case of Otello, I might agree that the approach loses something in its tunefulness (though I don't find it any less musically memorable than, say, Macbeth), but in terms of drama I think it's Verdi's finest (even on par with Shakespeare's play). With Falstaff, I think Verdi lost neither tunefulness nor drama (or comedy, in that case), even if the tunefulness is more continuously flowing than in the more sectionalized approach of his early work.


I second (or third) this view. But being an inveterate Wagnerite, how could I not?  Joking aside, I don't find _Otello_ the least bit deficient in melody. Melodies don't have to be symmetrical and self-contained. They need only be well-shaped, expressive, and memorable. _Otello_ struck me as rich in melody the first time I heard it at, probably, sixteen years of age. (So did _Tristan,_ the _Ring_, and _Parsifal;_ we don't hear Wagner called a "melodist," but by George, his tunes, whether short and motivic or long-extended, stick in the mind.)

There's no doubt that Verdi learned from Wagner, and also no doubt that he remained entirely himself in the process. There's nothing "Germanic" about his Wagnerism, as there is nothing about Puccini's, although Puccini derived more from Wagner harmonically than Verdi did and made more use, though a relatively simple and "unsymphonic" use, of recurring motifs (he would often play through scores of _Tristan_ and _Parsifal_ that he kept on his piano). But both mastered the art of sustaining dramatic tension through long, continuous stretches of music, carving out, as Wagner did, forms within the forms which didn't draw attention to themselves and never broke the continuity, limning the dramatic rise and fall. One of Wagner's great skills was the art of gathering tension for a stunning finale; just when you think he can't get any more powerful, he'll pull out a final scene that seems to surpass and climax everything that went before. Verdi's earlier works (and many operas, frankly) are hit-and-miss in this respect, but the final scene of _Otello_ is an absolute killer (literally and figuratively). I would put its final act, from start to finish, as one of the most devastatingly powerful in opera. The lesson of the finale wasn't lost on Puccini either, which makes his death just before _Turandot_'s final scene all the more frustrating.

What we have in Verdi is, I think, the composer who gave singers the greatest opportunity to express the full range of human emotion in terms of pure vocal melody. I can see where _Otello_ and _Falstaff_ may be felt to sacrifice a little of that, but I don't feel the loss myself. Verdi never engulfs his singers in orchestral orgasms a la _Tristan,_ in spite of having the deepest admiration for that work. The German Wagner was a philosopher and mythmaker, a son of the ancient _Volk,_ creating worlds in which the hidden aspects of human nature - the dream world of the unconscious - could be made visible; his orchestra was the magic wand with which he summoned forests, storms, mystic talismans and the angelic devils which possessed his characters and drove them in search of salvation. The Latin Verdi was a humanist and an observer of men, a son of the Renaissance who looked at life in this world and had no time for mystic quests, whose concern was always the loves, hates and fears of men and women, their worldly ambitions, romantic passions, and moral choices, and the tragic consequences of their flaws. He never forgot that the human voice was at the center of his art, and he never created roles in which the human voice could better reveal the beauty and ugliness of human nature than the roles of Otello, Desdemona, and Iago.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

GregMitchell said:


> But I find *Falstaff* _is_ quintessentially Italian, and a distillation of all Verdi's genius. In some ways it's the most tuneful of all his works, but the tunes come so fast and furious that it can be quite hard to catch hold of them. So fecund is his inspiration that there is no need for him to overwork any of those tunes. The more I listen to the opera, the more I'm amazed at its sheer invention, its lightness of touch, its incredible _joie de vivre_ and melodic plenitude, all from a man in his eighties. It's little short of staggering!


Absolutely, Verdi at the top of his game.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> The German Wagner was a philosopher and mythmaker, a son of the ancient _Volk,_ creating worlds in which the hidden aspects of human nature - the dream world of the unconscious - could be made visible; his orchestra was the magic wand with which he summoned forests, storms, mystic talismans and the angelic devils which possessed his characters and drove them in search of salvation. The Latin Verdi was a humanist and an observer of men, a son of the Renaissance who looked at life in this world and had no time for mystic quests, whose concern was always the loves, hates and fears of men and women, their worldly ambitions, romantic passions, and moral choices, and the tragic consequences of their flaws. He never forgot that the human voice was at the center of his art, and he never created roles in which the human voice could better reveal the beauty and ugliness of human nature than the roles of Otello, Desdemona, and Iago.


I once made a very similar observation on the old IMDb Classical Music forum where I compared Verdi to Shakespeare and Wagner to Milton, while noting that Aida was like Shakespeare trying to write Paradise Lost and Meistersinger was Milton trying to write The Tempest! I like both works, but I see both of them as their creators almost creating "against" their type and more familiar milieu.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> I once made a very similar observation on the old IMDb Classical Music forum where I compared Verdi to Shakespeare and Wagner to Milton, while noting that Aida was like Shakespeare trying to write Paradise Lost and Meistersinger was Milton trying to write The Tempest! I like both works, but I see both of them as their creators almost creating "against" their type and more familiar milieu.


I don't think _Aida_ is that much of a departure for Verdi, except on the surface. It dresses up a simple, rather trite Italian-opera romantic triangle with pyramids, elephants, Phtha and some faux-Egyptian musical color. Verdi, making a leap forward as a musician, did a whiz-bang job of it, so it charms the ear as well as the eye. But is that also its defect? Maybe its real peculiarity among Verdi's works is that the characters aren't deep or interesting enough to stand out against the scenery; they seem no more than the situation which traps them and literally buries them. Maybe Verdi didn't love them the way he obviously loved Violetta or Rigoletto or many of his other characters. At least he doesn't make me care much about them.

_Meistersinger_ makes perfect sense as Wagner's recovery from _Tristan,_ to which it's a necessary antidote; it even quotes the _Tristan_ prelude when Sachs, disabusing Eva of any notion of marrying him despite his love for her, rejects that opera's desperately ecstatic vision of salvation by eros. In _Tristan_ the lovers flee from a deluded, deceitful, cruel world into a private nirvana; in _Meistersinger_ the world is embraced again despite its madness, love receives its due but no more, and reconciliation with society is shown to be the precondition of reform through the metaphor of art.

Like _Aida_, _Meistersinger_ is uncharacteristic of its composer mainly on the surface. Verdi is still the tragic humanist amidst the exoticism and spectacle, and Wagner remains the philosopher and mythmaker among the burghers of Nuremberg.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> In _Tristan_ the lovers flee from a deluded, deceitful, cruel world into a private nirvana; in _Meistersinger_ the world is embraced again despite its madness, love receives its due but no more, and reconciliation with society is shown to be the precondition of reform through the metaphor of art.


Very well put!

,,,,,,,,,,


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> What we have in Verdi is, I think, the composer who gave singers the greatest opportunity to express the full range of human emotion in terms of pure vocal melody. I can see where _Otello_ and _Falstaff_ may be felt to sacrifice a little of that, but I don't feel the loss myself. Verdi never engulfs his singers in orchestral orgasms a la _Tristan,_ in spite of having the deepest admiration for that work. The German Wagner was a philosopher and mythmaker, a son of the ancient _Volk,_ creating worlds in which the hidden aspects of human nature - the dream world of the unconscious - could be made visible; his orchestra was the magic wand with which he summoned forests, storms, mystic talismans and the angelic devils which possessed his characters and drove them in search of salvation. The Latin Verdi was a humanist and an observer of men, a son of the Renaissance who looked at life in this world and had no time for mystic quests, whose concern was always the loves, hates and fears of men and women, their worldly ambitions, romantic passions, and moral choices, and the tragic consequences of their flaws. He never forgot that the human voice was at the center of his art, and he never created roles in which the human voice could better reveal the beauty and ugliness of human nature than the roles of Otello, Desdemona, and Iago.


I think you've summed up the difference between the two pretty well. Thanks for that! I can now see clearly why I prefer Verdi to Wagner in that Verdi is about human beings rather than myths and philosophical concepts. I am fascinated by people and what makes them tick, probably why I find Verdi's characters far more interesting than Wagner's. I'm not giving a 'right or wrong' in this - just that preferences are different. Other people (you included) I know see things differently. I think we can see in Verdi which characters really fascinated him - probably why Rigoletto and Traviata affect us more than Trovatore, although Verdi obviously had a fascination for Azucena. Who wouldn't! By the time he reaches Otello and Falstaff he is the absolute master, to me bettered only by Mozart in drawing characters. As one approaches old age (as I am) can't one completely identify with Sir John's 'Old John' narrative? To me Falstaff is the antidote to Otello - a joyous evening (when done well) which sends one away glad to share life on this planet. And the last chorus seems to sum up Verdi's own attitude - 'We've all been fooled' - which is what opera is all about, of course!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> I think you've summed up the difference between the two pretty well. Thanks for that! I can now see clearly why I prefer Verdi to Wagner in that Verdi is about human beings rather than myths and philosophical concepts. I am fascinated by people and what makes them tick, probably why I find Verdi's characters far more interesting than Wagner's. I'm not giving a 'right or wrong' in this - just that preferences are different. Other people (you included) I know see things differently. I think we can see in Verdi which characters really fascinated him - probably why Rigoletto and Traviata affect us more than Trovatore, although Verdi obviously had a fascination for Azucena. Who wouldn't! By the time he reaches Otello and Falstaff he is the absolute master, to me bettered only by Mozart in drawing characters. As one approaches old age (as I am) can't one completely identify with Sir John's 'Old John' narrative? To me Falstaff is the antidote to Otello - a joyous evening (when done well) which sends one away glad to share life on this planet. And the last chorus seems to sum up Verdi's own attitude - 'We've all been fooled' - which is what opera is all about, of course!


_Falstaff_ as the antidote to _Otello_, _Meistersinger_ as the antidote to _Tristan..._ In both cases a comedy reconciles us to life after a tragedy in which life is unbearable. Nice parallel.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> The German Wagner was a philosopher and mythmaker, a son of the ancient _Volk,_ creating worlds in which the hidden aspects of human nature - the dream world of the unconscious - could be made visible; his orchestra was the magic wand with which he summoned forests, storms, mystic talismans and the angelic devils which possessed his characters and drove them in search of salvation. The Latin Verdi was a humanist and an observer of men, a son of the Renaissance who looked at life in this world and had no time for mystic quests, whose concern was always the loves, hates and fears of men and women, their worldly ambitions, romantic passions, and moral choices, and the tragic consequences of their flaws. He never forgot that the human voice was at the center of his art, and he never created roles in which the human voice could better reveal the beauty and ugliness of human nature than the roles of Otello, Desdemona, and Iago.


This is very well put, and is probably the reason I respond better to Verdi than to Wagner. Both through his operas and his writings, Verdi reveals himself to be the arch-humanist. He can't help showing sympathy for even those who behave reprehensibly (just think of that glorious theme that follows Paolo's arrest in *Simon Boccanegra*). He sees all of humanity, and accepts its imperfections. I find him Shakespearean in his scope and universality. Wagner might overwhelm me with the sheer splendour of the soundworld he creates, but it is Verdi's understanding and compassion which ultimately moves me more.

My different reactions to the two might be summed up by saying that I would no doubt be interested in a lecture or talk given by Wagner, but Verdi is the man I would far rather have round for dinner.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> This is very well put, and is probably the reason I respond better to Verdi than to Wagner. Both through his operas and his writings, Verdi reveals himself to be the arch-humanist. He can't help showing sympathy for even those who behave reprehensibly (just think of that glorious theme that follows Paolo's arrest in *Simon Boccanegra*). He sees all of humanity, and accepts its imperfections. I find him Shakespearean in his scope and universality. Wagner might overwhelm me with the sheer splendour of the soundworld he creates, but it is Verdi's understanding and compassion which ultimately moves me more.
> 
> My different reactions to the two might be summed up by saying that I would no doubt be interested in a lecture or talk given by Wagner, but Verdi is the man I would far rather have round for dinner.


I suppose one's choice of dinner guest would depend on what sorts of things one finds appropriate as dinner conversation. I confess to ignorance of Verdi's conversational style and substance, but I know that Wagner was an explosive volcano of ideas both insightful and nutty and wasn't the least bit shy about forcing them on anyone within earshot. I think I might like to have Wagner over at tea, listen to him hold forth for a couple of hours, and then send him home and sit down with Verdi for a relatively peaceful dinner. Of course its possible that the maestro was a bit of a grouch and wouldn't have been entirely pleasant across the dinner table; I get the feeling from his operas that he could be rather cynical and glum, something between Iago's "I believe in a cruel God and death is nothingness" and Falstaff's "the whole world is a joke." Sometimes I share those sentiments but I'm not sure I want to contemplate them over lasagna. Perhaps the best course would be to have Wagner and Verdi over together and just sit back and watch the sparks fly. The two never met in life, and it would be a genuine coup to correct that oversight posthumously.


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## Cat from hell (Apr 18, 2020)

Of the ones I saw - Otello, Simon Boccanegra, Rigoletto, Forza del Destino, Don Carlo, il trovatore, Aida, Ballo, Traviata, Macbeth, Ernani, Nabuchodonosor. Falstaf I saw, can’t really relate to it somehow.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

My favorites are Aida, La Traviata and Il Trovatore. Trovatore is not a great opera, but the music is so amazing.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Trovatore is not a great opera, but the music is so amazing.


I'm not sure what constitutes a great opera but amazing music is surely one of the prerequisites.

The opera can be seen to be the one in which Verdi finally waved goodbye to his galley years and one of the triumvirate of operas, along with *Rigoletto* and *La Traviata*, which heralded his middle period. Admittedly it is closer in style to his early operas than *Rigoletto*, which preceded it, but it is brim full of invention and glorious tunes, nowhere evincing the dull routine that creeps into some of Verdi's "galley" operas, as he called them.



> If it is not the composer's supreme masterpiece it is none the less without parallel in the whole operatic literature - a late flowering of the Italian romantic tradition possible only to one who has seen beyond it. It is a valuable reminder that the laws of musical theatre in its widest sense do not have to cinform to those of literary 'drama' in order to produce a coherent masterpiece.


 - Julian Budden in _The Operas of Verdi, Volume 2_.

All three volumes of Budden's survey of Verdi's operas are excellent reading, by the way.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

*Macbeth,*, *Nabucco*, *Il Trovatore*, *Un Ballo in Maschera*, *La Traviata*, *La Forza del Destino*, *Aida*, *I Vespri Siciliani*, *Rigoletto* if *Callas* is singing.

Add *Don Carlo*, *Otello*, *Attila*, if she's not. 
I've been to several productions of *Falstaff*, but I really don't like the opera much (no flaming, please).


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MAS said:


> I've been to several productions of *Falstaff*, but I really don't like the opera much (no flaming, please).


No, no flaming. _Falstaff_ is clearly not everyone's tankard of ale. I have an oddly ambivalent feeling about it, which might be characterized as great admiration and appreciation, implying real enjoyment of its rich and subtle musical detail, but not much of the warm personal feeling I have for _Otello_, _La Traviata,_ or _Rigoletto._ I find myself grateful for the few moments when the music expands into a bit of lyricism; the tender phrases that pass between Ann and Fenton and the atmospheric tone-painting and fairy music of the final scene are really needed to relieve the general hustle and bustle. I also find the central character unappealing, for somewhat the same reasons I find Strauss's Baron Ochs unattractive (though to a lesser extent). As with Ochs, Falstaff's verbal wit seems to me better adapted to straight theater than to opera, and although I can't fault Verdi's treatment of him he never evokes my sympathy. The other characters don't engage me as individuals living lives of any interest, my reaction to the rather cruel plot is mild amusement at best, and when everyone gets together at the end to chortle and back-slap and sing an extended fugue about what fools we all are I'm left cold. I'm just not convinced that Verdi, the cynical old tragedian who wrote Iago's credo and never allowed his dying protagonists a glimpse of redemption, was really into the affirmation of life that some see or hear in his final opera.

I love the classic Gobbi/Karajan recording, which I think gets from the opera virtually everything it has to give, and I once saw an echt-Elizabethan production in Boston which I greatly enjoyed, but the Met's recent updated version left me indifferent. I'd like to see a well-done Shakespearean production again, with the likes of a Gobbi singing and acting the title role.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

The last 5 minutes are ok. 
Otherwise............


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> No, no flaming. _Falstaff_ is clearly not everyone's tankard of ale. I have an oddly ambivalent feeling about it, which might be characterized as great admiration and appreciation, implying real enjoyment of its rich and subtle musical detail, but not much of the warm personal feeling I have for _Otello_, _La Traviata,_ or _Rigoletto._ I find myself grateful for the few moments when the music expands into a bit of lyricism; the tender phrases that pass between Ann and Fenton and the atmospheric tone-painting and fairy music of the final scene are really needed to relieve the general hustle and bustle. I also find the central character unappealing, for somewhat the same reasons I find Strauss's Baron Ochs unattractive (though to a lesser extent). As with Ochs, Falstaff's verbal wit seems to me better adapted to straight theater than to opera, and although I can't fault Verdi's treatment of him he never evokes my sympathy. The other characters don't engage me as individuals living lives of any interest, my reaction to the rather cruel plot is mild amusement at best, and when everyone gets together at the end to chortle and back-slap and sing an extended fugue about what fools we all are I'm left cold. I'm just not convinced that Verdi, the cynical old tragedian who wrote Iago's credo and never allowed his dying protagonists a glimpse of redemption, was really into the affirmation of life that some see or hear in his final opera.
> 
> I love the classic Gobbi/Karajan recording, which I think gets from the opera virtually evrything it has to give, and I once saw an echt-Elizabethan production in Boston which I greatly enjoyed, but the Met's recent updated version left me indifferent. I'd like to see a well-done Shakespearean production again, with the likes of a Gobbi singing and acting the title role.


I can see exactly what you mean, but I think most of these problems are with the original Shakespeare play, but I think Verdi and Boito bring a touch of humanity to it that isn't actually in the original. The inclusion of the honour monologue, which is lifted from _Henry IV, Part I_ certainly helps, but it has to be said that the comedy is quite cruel. Mind you I find the comedy in *Don Pasquale* also quite cruel and I share your misgivings about Ochs.

That said, I love *Falstaff* for its music. That a man of Verdi's years should have come up with a score so full of musical invention and sparkle is a miracle in itself.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I can see exactly what you mean, but I think most of these problems are with the original Shakespeare play, but I think Verdi and Boito bring a touch of humanity to it that isn't actually in the original. The inclusion of the honour monologue, which is lifted from _Henry IV, Part I_ certainly helps, but it has to be said that the comedy is quite cruel. Mind you I find the comedy in *Don Pasquale* also quite cruel and I share your misgivings about Ochs.
> 
> That said, I love *Falstaff* for its music. *That a man of Verdi's years should have come up with a score so full of musical invention and sparkle is a miracle in itself.*


Indeed, that's why I always include it in a list of my favorite operas even though it probably isn't.

That's a koan. Figure it out and you'll be a Zen master.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I can see exactly what you mean, but I think most of these problems are with the original Shakespeare play, but I think Verdi and Boito bring a touch of humanity to it that isn't actually in the original. The inclusion of the honour monologue, which is lifted from _Henry IV, Part I_ certainly helps, but it has to be said that the comedy is quite cruel. Mind you I find the comedy in *Don Pasquale* also quite cruel and I share your misgivings about Ochs.
> 
> That said, I love *Falstaff* for its music. That a man of Verdi's years should have come up with a score so full of musical invention and sparkle is a miracle in itself.


I started watching the Met production of _Don Pasquale_ but never finished it... felt almost tastelessly cruel to me although Donizetti's music is wonderful. I don't know if it's my problem but for some reason I don't particularly enjoy watching such cruel fun, even if it's earned. There is at least one example which comes to my mind where the fun isn't achieved through overplaying anything and which has a plot which feels thoroughly natural but still fun. As I've recently started understanding, the name of the composer should go unmentioned for the sake of world (or at least TC) peace .

Among Verdi's operas, I utterly love both _Don Carlo_ and _Otello_. For me they are the two great climaxes of Verdi's genius though I still haven't managed to listen to all Verdi's operas. I should sort out that problem...


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

annaw said:


> I started watching the Met production of _Don Pasquale_ but never finished it... felt almost tastelessly cruel to me although Donizetti's music is wonderful. I don't know if it's my problem but for some reason I don't particularly enjoy watching such cruel fun, even if it's earned. There is at least one example which comes to my mind where the fun isn't achieved through overplaying anything and which has a plot which feels thoroughly natural but still fun. As I've recently started understanding, the name of the composer should go unmentioned for the sake of world (or at least TC) peace .
> 
> Among Verdi's operas, I utterly love both _Don Carlo_ and _Otello_. For me they are the two great climaxes of Verdi's genius though I still haven't managed to listen to all Verdi's operas. I should sort out that problem...


_
Don Pasquale_ is cruel, but so ridiculous it's hard to take the cruelty seriously. I enjoyed the Met video immensely, not least for the virtuoso hijinks of Anna Netrebko.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> That said, I love *Falstaff* for its music. That a man of Verdi's years should have come up with a score so full of musical invention and sparkle is a miracle in itself.


I wonder what age has to do with coming up with what Verdi produced in *Falstaff*? 
True, in those days, people didn't live as long, or were, perhaps, senile - however, Verdi had been retired for a few years and probably had all of these fragments of melodies swirling around in his head and was just *so relieved* to pour them out on to the pages of the score! "Phew, now I can sleep at night!" he might have said.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

I don't listen to Verdi very often these days, but if I reached for something off the shelves, it'd be *Simon Boccanegra* (Abbado), *Othello* (Myung When Chung) or *Giovanna D'arco* (Levine). Not the most orthodox of choices, but the ones I enjoy the most.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MAS said:


> I wonder what age has to do with coming up with what Verdi produced in *Falstaff*?
> True, in those days, people didn't live as long, or were, perhaps, senile - however, Verdi had been retired for a few years and probably had all of these fragments of melodies swirling around in his head and was just *so relieved* to pour them out on to the pages of the score! "Phew, now I can sleep at night!" he might have said.


I think _Falstaff_ is definitely "old man's music," and not only because of its advanced and masterly technical and formal aspects. For one thing, it lacks the romantic ardor of his earlier works; even the "love music" of Ann and Fenton is delicate and nostalgic, perhaps a touch melancholy, expressing more an old man's memory of youth than the thing itself (Verdi was already more than halfway to this new, refined quality of expression with the ethereal and dignified love duet of Otello and Desdemona, which seems more to sublimate passion than to express it). Neither would the younger Verdi have drawn the character of Falstaff with such understanding, and again he got a certain amount of practice depicting the wit, irony and cynicism of Iago.

I get the feeling that in _Falstaff_ Verdi shows himself to be as much past the mad passions of young manhood as Wagner was in _Parsifal_ - maybe even more so, as one can hardly imagine Verdi offering us an Amfortas to lament how passion can ruin your life - and _Parsifal,_ too, is a superb example of "old man's music."


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> _
> Don Pasquale_ is cruel, but so ridiculous it's hard to take the cruelty seriously. I enjoyed the Met video immensely, not least for the virtuoso hijinks of Anna Netrebko.


Yeah, the production itself was very nice and the singers were evidently really enjoying themselves. I can't argue with that. Maybe I should give it another go now that I know what to expect .


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

HenryPenfold said:


> I don't listen to Verdi very often these days, but if I reached for something off the shelves, it'd be *Simon Boccanegra* (Abbado), *Othello* (Myung When Chung) or *Giovanna D'arco* (Levine). Not the most orthodox of choices, but the ones I enjoy the most.


I love this selection for its eclectic nature. Giovanna D'arco wouldn't even make it into my top five favourites of Verdi's operas up to Macbeth and nobody would say that it is a great opera in the way that both Otello and Simon Boccanegra are. However the Levine recording is superb and very enjoyable. If you told someone that you liked Simon Boccanegra and Otello and asked them to recommend a third Verdi to listen to, I think Giovanna would be almost the last one they would suggest. Interesting choices.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The Conte said:


> I love this selection for its eclectic nature. Giovanna D'arco wouldn't even make it into my top five favourites of Verdi's operas up to Macbeth and nobody would say that it is a great opera in the way that both Otello and Simon Boccanegra are. However the Levine recording is superb and very enjoyable. If you told someone that you liked Simon Boccanegra and Otello and asked them to recommend a third Verdi to listen to, I think Giovanna would be almost the last one they would suggest. Interesting choices.
> 
> N.


*Giovanna d'Arco* wouldn't make it into my top five either and, of those written before *Macbeth* I would probably prefer *Nabucco*, *Ernani* and *I Due Foscari*. However Verdi here creates a most sympathetic heroine in Giovanna, whose music always carries a sense of her essential simplicity. I too enjoy the Levine recording, but mostly for the work of its principles Caballé, Domingo and Milnes. Levine is a bit too bombastic for my taste and I prefer the work of Gardelli in these early works. Unfortuantely this one wasn't recorded as part of his early Verdi series for Philips, Levine and EMI having got there first.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The two great Shakespeare operas are among the greatest operas ever written. So we have to put Otello and Falstaff joint first.

Third comes Carlo and fourth Aida

Then Rigoletto, Traviata, Boccanegra, Trovatore in that order.

Ballo is the dark horse with magnificent score, do not like Forza too much.

Macbeth the revised version is great. Nabucco fun.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

The day I finally put myself to explore Falstaff hasn't come yet. Sometimes I tend to favour the "Spanish" operas over the others, sometimes because I understand and recognise the social diferences much better and the way Verdi portrays that "special feeling" is outstanding to my ears.

1. _Aida,_ for a score and libretto that stands the pass of time if we erase any blackfacing.
2. _Don Carlo,_ even if Eboli's characterization isn't really that deep, or Posa and the whole plot follows a doubtful "Black Legend", the power of the Inquisition, the humanization of the Royal characters and especially the spectacular music makes it soar.
3. _La Forza del Destino,_ where surprisingly the more I know about the opera the more it fascinates me. 
4. _Otello,_ laziest plot of the mature operas but Verdi is at his best, acceptable if we erase blackfacing too.
5. _Boccanegra_ (Revised), softest spot for this work, I get the chills when a baritone gets such a dignifying and heroic title role.
6. _Traviata,_ difficult not to get into Violetta's skin.
7. _Macbeth,_ best enjoyed with context and libretto, another scary baritone show-off along the wife who sings "Segui!"
8. _Rigoletto,_ not very easy for me to enjoy the story, but love the dramedy feeling Verdi achieves.
9. _Ernani,_ or when Victor Hugo's juicy play adapted by young Piave is still too big for young Verdi's musical skills. 
10. _Il Trovatore_, pretty messy plot I have to use the suspension of disbelief, some performers make it more fascinating than it looks.
And then comes a bunch of _Attila, Nabucco, Ballo in Maschera_ (score is on another level but the plot and characters make me cringe), a never got through _Luisa Miller_ after Scene 2. _Vespri Siciliani_ is difficult to swallow.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Granate said:


> Sometimes I tend to favour the "Spanish" operas over the others, sometimes because I understand and recognise the social diferences much better and the way Verdi portrays that "special feeling" is outstanding to my ears.


An interesting observation that arouses my curiosity. Can you elaborate on that "special feeling" for a non-Spaniard? Is it a matter of plot, music, or both?


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## Dick Johnson (Apr 14, 2020)

Thank you all for your comments on this thread. Wooduck - your analysis of differences in Verdi and Wagner was particularly fascinating. 

1a. Il Trovatore – Verdi was obviously having fun with the plot and wanted the audience to have fun too.
1b. Don Carlo(s) – In contrast to Trovatore, this one is serious but no less beautiful.
2. Rigoletto – What opera has converted more people into opera fans? I can’t think of any. So well-known that it is often taken for granted.
3. Macbetto – The recent Lucic and Netrebko production at the Met blew my mind. Would have been much lower before.
4. Falstaff – Ibid...Ambrogio Maestri owns the role. As many have noted, this one has lots of melody but it comes at you fast and is gone before you know it. Unlike most Verdi, took some time to sink in for me. The aging cavalier is one of Verdi’s most complete characterizations (some credit on this point is certainly due to Boito – for Iago too). The mood manages to be fun and wistful all at once.
5. Otello - a work of genius and a fascinating examination of evil…so not as “enjoyable” as some of the others for me despite the wonderful melody. Boito treats Iago as the central figure of the work - making it eternally fascinating and very dark.
6. La Traviata – so well-known that there isn’t much to say.
7. Il Vespri Siciliani – higher on my list than most others. Combines great musical heights and (unlike any of the higher rated ones) some admittedly boring stretches. This one would have benefited from some cuts. I rate the best moments among Verdi’s very best and use the fast-forward with regularity.
8. La Forza del Destino – Like Trovatore, this one is great even with the contrived plot. I read that Verdi actually relished the bizarre coincidences in these operas (same with Ernani) and encouraged his librettists to go over the top. The critics seem to dislike the tavern scene but I think it’s fun (Son Pereda).
9. Simon Boccanegra – Another one that has grown on me. Very atmospheric.
10. Atilla – My favorite of the pre-Macbeth period.
11. Un Ballo in Maschera
12. Ernani – great melody. A fun (if silly) plot.
13. Luisa Miller
14. Nabucco – Chorus of the Hebrew Slaves is great. Have never warmed up to the rest.
15. Aida – Sacrilege to place this one so low – it just always seems less personal and more contrived than the ones higher on the list – as if it was a “production” rather than something heartfelt. I’m sure I’ll change my mind someday – millions of others can’t be wrong.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

MAS said:


> I wonder what age has to do with coming up with what Verdi produced in *Falstaff*?
> True, in those days, people didn't live as long, or were, perhaps, senile - however, Verdi had been retired for a few years and probably had all of these fragments of melodies swirling around in his head and was just *so relieved* to pour them out on to the pages of the score! "Phew, now I can sleep at night!" he might have said.


As Verdi was a good deal older than me when he wrote Falstaff, I think the writing of it was a miracle!


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

i could have sworn i had responded to this thread years ago, i was looking through it to see if i majorly disagreed with my past self--always a fun activity. i guess i'll have to provide a list now for 2025 me to scoff at.

top tier, by itself:

*otello *- this and pelleas et melisande are the two operas that keep my top 10 list from being all wagner. i still get shudders when i watch even mediocre performances.

below otello but still pretty much top tier:

*don carlo* - wonderful but takes a special performance to really make it work, and the awful ending has never worked for me. unfortunately, just skipping the ending like the stein recording with corelli/janowitz doesn't work either
*aida *- i used to be so sick of this but taking a decade away from listening to it has helped refresh it for me. i still hate the ballet and marches in the second act but the stretch from the end of act 2 when amonasro is dragged out until the end is a phenomenal unbroken span of great music and gripping drama
*trovatore *- this one has moved way up for me. i think it's pretty funny that we moderns criticize the plot conventions in this opera when we live in a society where the main storytelling choice is marvel or dc

really still great, but a notch below the last tier:

*rigoletto* - this was my first verdi love and i still love it quite a lot. even more so than don carlo, i think this takes a very special performance not to be just a string of setpieces
*ballo* - not technically a comedy since this ends with the ostensible protagonist's death, but i think it's the most fun verdi opera. lots of bright lively fun music. but many many performances are marred by extremely irritating oscars, and some people reasonably find it hard to enjoy an opera with such a repellent protagonist
*traviata* - i may just be sick of it, i definitely have heard it too many times. maybe if i don't listen to this one for a decade, this and aida will switch positions. i think i get tired of the whole courtesan-with-a-heart-of-gold business.

lots of good stuff but lots of stuff that's less great:

*boccanegra *- always feels like a bit of a letdown to me since i think it starts off stronger than it ends
*macbeth *- some truly great music but some pretty bad music too, especially all the business with the witches, and the later 1865 ending with that awful chorus. i actively seek out recordings without the act 3 ballet and with the original 1847 ending. i also use the fast forward button pretty aggressively.
*forza *- even higher highs than macbeth but much lower lows too, and for longer stretches. there's a great hour and a half, hour and 45 minute opera lurking in this composition, but unfortunately there's around 45 minutes to an hour of some of the most tedious and wretched music--basically all the preziosilla, trabuco and melitone material, and a good bit of guardiano material too.
*falstaff *- i've been listening to a lot of prokofiev lately and it struck me that i kind of feel about his operas how i feel about falstaff--pretty fun to watch on stage but not really that fun to listen to in audio recordings. tuneful and catchy, but only up to a point. clever and a little chilly

other than these, i enjoy the occasional spin of nabucco, i vespri siciliani, luisa miller, and especially ernani. attila has a great overture, but i can't say i enjoy the whole opera much.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

1. Otello
2. Don Carlo

The rest is silence!


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Barbebleu said:


> 1. Otello
> 2. Don Carlo
> 
> The rest is silence!


interesting! i didn't know that--do you just not like italian opera, barbe? or are there other italian opera that you like?


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Barbebleu said:


> 1. Otello
> 2. Don Carlo
> 
> The rest is silence!


I completely agree. Except with the _Hamlet_ part.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

howlingfantods said:


> interesting! i didn't know that--do you just not like italian opera, barbe? or are there other italian opera that you like?


Oh no. I love Puccini. I like Cav and Pag and Lucia. Just not a great admirer of the rest of Verdi's operas. I'm not a huge fan of bel canto either so that kind of kicks Bellini into touch. Can't really be bothered with Rossini apart from Tell. Just my own personal taste. I know millions love Italian opera. I have got a fair few of Verdi's other operas like Macbeth, Traviata, Trovatore, Forza and Aida and a couple of others whose names escape me at the moment.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Barbebleu said:


> Oh no. I love Puccini. I like Cav and Pag and Lucia. Just not a great admirer of the rest of Verdi's operas. I'm not a huge fan of bel canto either so that kind of kicks Bellini into touch. Can't really be bothered with Rossini apart from Tell. Just my own personal taste. I know millions love Italian opera. I have got a fair few of Verdi's other operas like Macbeth, Traviata, Trovatore, Forza and Aida and a couple of others whose names escape me at the moment.


Ah interesting. We're actually pretty similar in this regard except that I like Verdi a lot more than you. i mostly like late 19th century italian opera and mostly don't like early 19th c. other than an occasional norma and lucia, and a very infrequent l'elisir or fille du regiment, bel canto rarely makes it into my rotation.


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