# And a metal site creates a classical forum...



## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

Metal Hall: Classical Forum

The net's oldest metal site has created a forum for classical music only.

As many of you know, classical and metal are similar through their use of narrative composition, where riffs fit together to form motifs and communicate change in experience.

This is why there is significant overlap between metal and classical fans, and why both musics have a stormy, powerful yet sensitive approach.

We are looking forward to connecting more of these fans with each other and more music they'll like, even if to outsiders it appears radically different.

For more information:

* Classical Music for Metal Fans
* What makes heavy metal heavy?

Do we hear applause? Didn't think so. But worth checking out.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

*clap clap*


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## sam richards (Apr 8, 2009)

^^^ LOL

Off-topic: I'm back!!!!


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

Applause is better than AIDS. Glad those retrovirals worked!


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2009)

Conservationist said:


> Metal Hall: Classical Forum
> 
> As many of you know, classical and metal are similar through their use of narrative composition, where riffs fit together to form motifs and communicate change in experience.
> 
> This is why there is significant overlap between metal and classical fans, and why both musics have a stormy, powerful yet sensitive approach..


The idea of Classical and metal being similar is lost on me, where on earth did you get this idea from, 
Riffs in classical?? Jazz has more riffs than classical but you can't say jazz and classical are similar or perhaps you do Conservationist. btw can you give an example of a classical riff ??
I suspect this is a ploy to get some of our members to go to your site but not a very suttle way of doing it. personaly I can't stand the sound of metal:angry:


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

Andante said:


> The idea of Classical and metal being similar is lost on me, where on earth did you get this idea from


Here's a full explanation:

http://www.anus.com/metal/about/metal/assimilation

Jazz is retarded. Once you see through it, you can never go back. Bad logic, bad music, overrated performers.


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

If you really think that metal is better than Jazz then you can't have a musical ear.. the improvisations of John Coltrane signify a total genius. The complex voicing and harmonic ingenuity of Bill Evans piano playing is remarkable - and to think he never wrote it down is quite unimaginable.

Metal is moronic noise that's not even played by proper acoustic instruments capable of subtle colouration.



















He even looks like a genius.


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2009)

Conservationist said:


> Here's a full explanation:
> 
> http://www.anus.com/metal/about/metal/assimilation
> 
> Jazz is retarded. Once you see through it, you can never go back. Bad logic, bad music, overrated performers.


Obviously you have seen through it, so explain what made you come to such a juvenile conclusion?? and how about an example of riffs in classical music  I can't wait to find out where these are


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

Metal fans are like fundamentalist christians - so deluded it's impossible to debate with them using conventional logic or common sense.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Bach said:


> If you really think that metal is better than Jazz then you can't have a musical ear.. the improvisations of John Coltrane signify a total genius. The complex voicing and harmonic ingenuity of Bill Evans piano playing is remarkable - and to think he never wrote it down is quite unimaginable.
> 
> Metal is moronic noise that's not even played by proper acoustic instruments capable of subtle colouration.
> 
> ...


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2009)

I am still interested in riffs that Conservationist said are in classical, I have thought of one that could be very loosely be termed a riff but not in the sense that Jazz would recognise and don't forget it was Jazz that gave birth to the Riff!


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

Bach said:


> Metal performers and fans are reactionary, vulgar fools without any wisdom, beauty or refinement. They're scum.


I used to listen to a lot of jazz. Then I realized it's a scam: there is no beauty in it, only disorganization, but it's widely praised by fools -- they like to feel smart once a week.


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## Guest (Jul 14, 2009)

Conservationist said:


> I used to listen to a lot of jazz. Then I realized it's a scam: there is no beauty in it, only disorganization, but it's widely praised by fools -- they like to feel smart once a week.


You really have got a chip on your shoulders, how is it disorganised?? how can a chord sequence either 12bar or 32bar be other than organised or are you referring to improvisation?? give some specifics to back up your views and don't generalise, and you have some nerve saying it has no beauty, do you claim that metal is beautiful


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

Andante said:


> give some specifics to back up your views and don't generalise, and you have some nerve saying it has no beauty, do you claim that metal is beautiful


Don't tell me what to do. You've got a chip on your shoulder, and you need to back up and consider your own issues.

You don't listen to metal, and have stated negative opinions about it, but yet, you know nothing of it.

Why should I give you the time of day?


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2009)

Conservationist said:


> Don't tell me what to do.


 but it is OK for you to tell me what to do?


> You've got a chip on your shoulder,


now you are copying my remarks about you


> and you need to back up and consider your own issues.


 Such as??



> You don't listen to metal, and have stated negative opinions about it, but yet, you know nothing of it.


 Of course I don't listen to it, as far as I am concerned it has a terrible sound, and is just a noise to me



> Why should I give you the time of day?


Well you started the thread and as yet you have not addressed a single point that I have raised,


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

Andante said:


> Of course I don't listen to it, as far as I am concerned it has a terrible sound, and is just a noise to me


OK, so you have no intention of changing your thoughts based on anything I say.

I don't really care about another angry internet person. It seems your problems begin and end in yourself, and I can't help you.


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2009)

I am not angry my friend and have not asked for your help, I was just hoping that you would back up some of the claims that you have made on this thread, but for one reason or another you are not willing to do that which raises the question of why you started the thread in the first place.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Conservationist said:


> I used to listen to a lot of jazz. Then I realized it's a scam: there is no beauty in it, only disorganization, but it's widely praised by fools -- they like to feel smart once a week.


Beauty is in the eye of beholder or in this case: the listener. If jazz is widely praised by fools, then I guess the same could be said of metal then couldn't it? There are plenty of people that like jazz, just like there's plenty who enjoy metal. There's plenty of music to go around for everybody.


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

Andante said:


> for one reason or another


The claims don't need "backing up," least of all to people who don't understand ROE and/or are completely hostile.

Think about it: you argue against metal, yet won't try it -- that makes you kind of an idiot belligerent, doesn't it?


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

Mirror Image said:


> If jazz is widely praised by fools, then I guess the same could be said of metal then couldn't it?


Doesn't follow.


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## Scott Good (Jun 8, 2009)

Andante said:


> btw can you give an example of a classical riff ??


1st movement Beethoven 5 Symphony is a classic example of "riff" driven music.

Much of Bach can be seen as employing a riff - in the case of most of the fugues, there are 2 riffs that play off of each other. Vivaldi uses riffs often in his music as well.

Now, these riffs do change pitch, but are rhythmic riffs, so, perhaps not exactly the same. Of course, the classical lingo is motive, but for me, a rhythmic based motive acts much like a riff in jazz or rock - it propels the music forward, giving it distinct character, often with syncopation, and recognizable pitch contour.

The only question is if one can accept the variations of the word riff to include a rhythmic motive that carries through an entire composition.

At least they should be considered related.


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2009)

Conservationist said:


> The claims don't need "backing up," least of all to people who don't understand ROE and/or are completely hostile.
> 
> Think about it: you argue against metal, yet won't try it -- that makes you kind of an idiot belligerent, doesn't it?


Think about this Conservationist, Not once have you explained or expanded on your claims, now to me that means you really don't know, and there is not any need to resort to ad hom as you have in this post



Scott Good said:


> 1st movement Beethoven 5 Symphony is a classic example of "riff" driven music.
> 
> Much of Bach can be seen as employing a riff - in the case of most of the fugues, there are 2 riffs that play off of each other. Vivaldi uses riffs often in his music as well.
> 
> ...


These may be your idea of a riff but no jazz man would consider them so. and all riffs in jazz are rhythmic, and in jazz [at least the jazz that I was involved with] the riff usually carries on for either 12 or 32 bars, maybe in the jazz/fusion etc it has become something else, the only example that I could think of in classical is The Bolero, but even this is not quite right as it continues all the way through whereas in Jazz it would not


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Conservationist said:


> Doesn't follow.


It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what I'm implying, Conservationist. My point is quite clear.


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

Andante said:


> Think about this Conservationist, Not once have you explained or expanded on your claims, now to me that means you really don't know, and there is not any need to resort to ad hom as you have in this post


You use ad homs as a matter of course, and as explained, I don't throw pearls before swine -- you've already admitted your mind is closed on this topic, so there's no point doing anything but insulting you. You clearly have no training in argument and are dishonest.


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

Mirror Image said:


> It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what I'm implying, Conservationist. My point is quite clear.


I didn't say "I don't understand."

I said the conclusion doesn't follow from the premises.


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2009)

Conservationist said:


> You use ad homs as a matter of course, and as explained, I don't throw pearls before swine -- you've already admitted your mind is closed on this topic, so there's no point doing anything but insulting you. You clearly have no training in argument and are dishonest.


*I cannot let this go *
1, Show the post where I have ad homed you, do you understand what ad hom means???
2, You are the only person on this forum to resort to this language it is most distasteful and uncalled for, the only excuse I could make for you would be if English was not you home tongue.


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## Scott Good (Jun 8, 2009)

Andante said:


> These may be your idea of a riff but no jazz man would consider them so. and all riffs in jazz are rhythmic, and in jazz [at least the jazz that I was involved with] the riff usually carries on for either 12 or 32 bars, maybe in the jazz/fusion etc it has become something else, the only example that I could think of in classical is The Bolero, but even this is not quite right as it continues all the way through whereas in Jazz it would not


Well, there are reasons most of the jazz musicians of the past listened to Bach - he works with similar kinds of materials.

No, jazz and classical and metal and rock and whatever are not the same - but they all share characteristics - this I am very interested in.

Listen to this prelude and fugue, and try to hear the connection I am making - listen to the riff like quality of this music. Notice how the riff is the quality that drives the music and gives it it's character. In this music, the riff is developed, in jazz, it would be used as a spring board for improvisation, but that doesn't mean there isn't a connection.






or this: an 8 bar riff is established, then it is in essence, improvised on. This riff could easily be performed by jazz (or rock) musicians, and be understood as such.






I would be very surprised if no jazz musicians make the same conclusions. Remember also that Bach used to improvise this music. He would come up with a "riff", and then go - it must have been the way - this is how people like Keith Jarret also do it. And this is how I have often performed improvised in jazz, rock, funk etc - someone starts a riff, and away we go. It's not so different. It's all connected.

Is this so far off?


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

Andante said:


> 1, Show the post where I have ad homed you, do you understand what ad hom means?


Here's a collection of your nasty comments implying incompetence on my part:



Andante said:


> for one reason or another you are not willing to do that which raises the question of why you started the thread in the first place.





Andante said:


> You really have got a chip on your shoulders, how is it disorganised?





Andante said:


> explain what made you come to such a juvenile conclusion?





Andante said:


> I suspect this is a ploy to get some of our members to go to your site but not a very suttle way of doing it.


You behave badly and argue like someone who is not only untrained but not competent for the task. Do you now see why I am not replying to you?


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## Guest (Jul 17, 2009)

Scott Good said:


> I would be very surprised if no jazz musicians make the same conclusions. Remember also that Bach used to improvise this music. He would come up with a "riff", and then go - it must have been the way - this is how people like Keith Jarret also do it. And this is how I have often performed improvised in jazz, rock, funk etc - someone starts a riff, and away we go. It's not so different. It's all connected.
> 
> Is this so far off?


No you are right mostly. 
One of the main reasons that bach is played by Jazz musicians is the mathematical qualities, the ridged beat of the music and the short phrasing . this makes it ideal for a group to improvise around. As did the Jacques Loussier Trio a few years ago.
A repeated motif is not necessarily a riff, it is a ostinato, there is a difference, I spent 4hrs last night trying to find a good example on my Jazz Cds but in the end I could not find what I wanted, but as you said in jazz they are used as a launch platform for a soloist they are also used to get a piece going again when it has run out of steam and to make a powerful coda. But not used extensively in classical or for the same reasons as has been claimed on this post


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## Guest (Jul 17, 2009)

Conservationist said:


> Here's a collection of your nasty comments implying incompetence on my part:
> You behave badly and argue like someone who is not only untrained but not competent for the task. *Do you now see why I am not replying to you*?


Not really I thought this was a reply 

I won't state the obvious, but have a look at the posts that you are quoting, your comments are >%%4#2(( , I really have no interest in engaging in a slanging match and please don't send me any more PMs in the same vein as your last one.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Who cares about the comparative merits of these genres - it all depends on personal taste. It's no use arguing about this like children (eg. 'My genre is better than yours,' etc.)...

As for the main topic, I think it's great that a classical sub-forum has been created on a metal forum site. Any such exposure to classical, pretty much anywhere, is a good thing IMO...


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## Scott Good (Jun 8, 2009)

Andante said:


> No you are right mostly.
> One of the main reasons that bach is played by Jazz musicians is the mathematical qualities, the ridged beat of the music and the short phrasing . this makes it ideal for a group to improvise around. As did the Jacques Loussier Trio a few years ago.
> A repeated motif is not necessarily a riff, it is a ostinato, there is a difference, I spent 4hrs last night trying to find a good example on my Jazz Cds but in the end I could not find what I wanted, but as you said in jazz they are used as a launch platform for a soloist they are also used to get a piece going again when it has run out of steam and to make a powerful coda. But not used extensively in classical or for the same reasons as has been claimed on this post


4hrs!!! That is devotion to the post. Thanks even if it didn't pan out.

But, on the internet (my recording collection is quite small...)...how's about C jam'n blues! That's 12 bar blues riff.






Or from one of my fav big bands, the "intermission riff" of Stan Kenton.






Or something a little different - when it hits 1:50, there is a riffy accompaniment based on a melodic fragment. Notice how the melody just evolves over it - I love this tune (but then, I am a trombone player.)






I guess I always thought of an ostinato as more of an accompaniment figure, whereas in the Bach prelude, it lies somewhere between a melodic idea and an ostinato, which I guess is why I tend to think of it as like a riff.

Also, did you hear the fugue (Cmin, WTC 1). It just seems so riffy to me! Such a potent little rhythmic figure that comes in and out of the music. Yes, like any fugue, but some subjects are more rhythmic than others.

But it's only a word, eh?! And a vague one as well - and slang. I used to be more up on the terms, but since graduating, I've absorbed myself in scores and playing/composing only - not books. So my terminology is "evolving" ..or should I say drifting...

And, I think it is worth noting that the term riff in rock and metal is a little different as well.

This is a classic rock riff: Its not really a melody, but more than an accompaniment - it is very rhythmic, and repeated quite a bit. More than a hook, although comprised of hooks. It is a riff.


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## Guest (Jul 17, 2009)

*Hi Scott*I love Kenton as well he had some great musicians, I do have intermission riff" but on vinyl as is most of my jazz, and I do not have a program to convert to CD not that I would use it as I do occasionally have a vinyl evening only and they still sound great, but they have been looked after. I also played some Hampton small group stuff which is still magic to me with such a phenomenal swing, and some Goodman ah those were the days. your comment re different meaning of riff in other genres is well pointed out and easy to forget, I did listen to your links but have to be careful for a couple of days as I have just about used my Broad Band quota,


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

Andre said:


> I think it's great that a classical sub-forum has been created on a metal forum site. Any such exposure to classical, pretty much anywhere, is a good thing IMO...


That was the original idea, but there's a clubhouse mentality many people have. It reminds me of these early Tom Wolfe essays I'm reading about status, posing and the "ideology" of most people.


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## Atelier (Jul 17, 2009)

> I think it's great that a classical sub-forum has been created on a metal forum site. Any such exposure to classical, pretty much anywhere, is a good thing IMO...


Any such exposure to metal, pretty much anywhere, is a good thing.

The difference is, we're respectful of classical music. Isn't that interesting?


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## Guest (Jul 21, 2009)

Atelier said:


> Any such exposure to metal, pretty much anywhere, is a good thing.
> 
> The difference is, we're respectful of classical music. Isn't that interesting?


Perhaps it has more to do with the attitude of some posters and the wording used in their posts


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## Atelier (Jul 17, 2009)

Yes, I see where you're going with that.



Bach said:


> metalheads are ugly and gross...They all look brain dead (which they must be) and they all deserve to be shot.


I guess we're on the same page after all.


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

Andante said:


> Perhaps it has more to do with the attitude of some posters and the wording used in their posts


I agree. Bach, yourself and several others need to reign yourselves in.


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

Conservationist said:


> I agree. Bach, yourself and several others need to reign yourselves in.


I realise I may get a warning for this but, *You really are a plonker*


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

Andante said:


> I realise I may get a warning for this but, *You really are a plonker*


I doubt you'll get a warning.

You come into this forum and say "All metal is garbage for uncultured, primitive, _Homo Erectus_ idiots" to a metalhead's face, and no one will do anything.

You've just taken a slightly more aggressive track.

I commend it because it's at least less passive and more honest.


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

Conservationist said:


> I doubt you'll get a warning.
> 
> You come into this forum and say "All metal is garbage for uncultured, primitive, _Homo Erectus_ idiots" to a metalhead's face, and no one will do anything.
> 
> ...


See what I mean, you get everything wrong, I shall unsubscribe from this thread as it is a complete waste of time,


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

Andante said:


> See what I mean, you get everything wrong, I shall unsubscribe from this thread as it is a complete waste of time,


So YOU say, but if what I am saying is true, you'd want that truth to be hidden.


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