# List of 100 greatest operas



## Almaviva

I found this list in the Internet, supposedly ranked "for their innovation and influence, as well as their aesthetic importance, historical significance and lasting popularity."

Question 1: Do you agree? Which ones are overrated, underrated, or missing, in your opinion?

Question 2: How many of these have you seen/heard?

1. Der Ring des Nibelungen - Richard Wagner
2. Tristan Und Isolde - Richard Wagner
3. Don Giovanni - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
4. Otello - Giuseppe Verdi
5. The Marriage of Figaro - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
6. Aida - Giuseppe Verdi
7. La Boheme - Giacomo Puccini
8. Madame Butterfly - Giacomo Puccini
9. Der Rosenkavalier - Richard Strauss 
10. Parsifal - Richard Wagner 
11. Boris Godunov - Modest Mussorgsky 
12. La Traviata - Giuseppe Verdi
13. Carmen - Georges Bizet
14. Die Meistersinger - Richard Wagner 
15. The Magic Flute - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart 
16. Tosca - Giacomo Puccini
17. Falstaff - Giuseppe Verdi
18. Rigoletto - Giuseppe Verdi
19. The Barber Of Seville - Gioacchino Rossini
20. Cavalleria Rusticana - Pietro Mascagni 
21. Il Trovatore - Giuseppe Verdi
22. Turandot - Giacomo Puccini
23. Faust - Charles Gounod 
24. Lohengrin - Richard Wagner
25. Peter Grimes - Benjamin Britten
26. Norma - Vincenzo Bellini
27. Tannhauser - Richard Wagner
28. I Pagliacci - Rugierro Leoncavallo
29. Pelleas and Mellisande - Claude Debussy
30. Porgy & Bess - George Gershwin
31. Lucia Di Lammermoor - Gaetano Donizetti
32. Les Troyens - Hector Berlioz
33. Elektra - Richard Strauss
34. Cosi Fan Tutte - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
35. Fidelio - Ludwig Van Beethoven
36. Eugene Onegin - Peter Illitch Tchaikovsky
37. La Gioconda - Amiliare Ponchielli
38. Wozzeck - Alban Berg
39. Incoronazione di Poppea - Claudio Monteverdi
40. Salome - Richard Strauss
41. Dido and Aneas - Henry Purcell
42. The Cunning Little Vixen - Leos Janacek
43. Orpheus and Eurydice - Christoph Willibald Gluck
44. Don Carlos - Giuseppe Verdi
45. Orfeo - Claudio Monteverdi
46. Der Freischutz - Carl Maria von Weber
47. Samson and Delilah - Camille Saint-Saens
48. Tales of Hoffman - Jacques Offenbach
49. Hansel and Gretel - Engelbert Humperdink
50. The Flying Dutchman - Richard Wagner
51. The Rake's Progress - Igor Stravinsky
52. Manon - Jules Massenet
53. The Bartered Bride - Bedrich Smetana
54. The Huguenots - Giacomo Meyerbeer
55. La Forza Del Destino - Giuseppe Verdi
56. Manon Lescaut - Giacomo Puccini
57. Ariadne auf Naxos - Richard Strauss
58. Romeo and Juliet - Charles Gounod
59. L'Elisir D'Amore - Gaetano Donizetti
60. Lakme - Leo Delibes
61. Andre Chenier - Umberto Giordano
62. Werther - Jules Massenet
63. Don Pasquale - Gaetano Donizetti 
64. Jenufa - Leos Janacek
65. The Girl of the Golden West - Giacomo Puccini
66. La Sonnambula - Vincenzo Bellini
67. Turn of the Screw - Benjamin Britten
68. Duke Bluebeard's Castle - Bela Bartok
69. William Tell - Gioacchino Rossini
70. The Masked Ball - Giuseppe Verdi
71. Julius Caesar - Georg Friedrich Handel
72. La Serva Padrona - Giovanni Pergolesi
73. Die Tote Stadt - Erich Wolfgang Korngold
74. Louise - Gustave Charpentier
75. Mefistofele - Arrigo Boito
76. I Puritani - Vincenzo Bellini
77. Semiramide - Gioacchino Rossini
78. L'Africaine - Giacomo Meyerbeer
79. Castor et Pollux - Jean-Philippe Rameau
80. La Cenerentola - Gioacchino Rossini
81. Pique Dame - Peter Illitch Tchaikovsky
82. Billy Budd - Benjamin Britten
83. La Fille du Regiment - Gaetano Donizetti
84. Le Prophete - Giacomo Meyerbeer 
85. Le Coq D'or - Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakoff 
86. McBeth - Giuseppe Verdi
87. Les Pecheurs des Perles - Georges Bizet
88. The Pilgrim's Progress - Ralph Vaughan Williams
89. Ernani - Giuseppe Verdi
90. Gianni Schicchi - Giacomo Puccini
91. Beatrice et Benedict - Hector Berlioz
92. Simon Boccanegra - Giuseppe Verdi
93. Prince Igor - Alexander Borodin
94. Nabucco - Giuseppe Verdi
95. The Abduction from the Seraglio - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
96. Euryanthe - Carl Maria von Weber 
97. Dialogues des Carmelites - Frances Poulenc 
98. Atys - Jean-Baptiste Lully
99. Thais - Jules Massenet 
100. Martha - Friederich von Flotow























My answers:

Question 1 - Rameau's Les Boreades and Les Indes Galantes, and Berlioz's La Damnation de Faust (although some won't consider it an opera) in my opinion should be there. I consider Rossini's Il Turco in Italia as good or better than some of his more famous works. Donizetti's serious operas only got a nod in Lucia, then we have three of his comedies, but I'd still include some others of his serious operas such as Roberto Devereux (maybe his most melodious work) and Maria Stuarda.

I believe Meyerbeer is overrated with three works (although I'm judging him over the one work of his I've seen, Les Huguenots, which I didn't particularly like), while Offenbach is underrated with only one work, considering that Orfée aux Enfers, La Belle Hélène, and La Vie Parisienne are all fine works - but their absence may be explained by the fact that they don't seem to have considered operettas (which explains the absence of Die Fledermaus and Die lustige Witwe - but I wouldn't dismiss these works just because they are operettas, they're as good or better than many operas).

While I recognize Boris Godunov's importance, I like Khovanshchina better. Same with Wozzeck and Lulu, the former is indeed more important, but I like the latter better.

Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk is another notable absence, as well as Ravel's L'Heure Espagnole and L'Enfant et les Sortilèges.

But the biggest dirty shame of this list is the fact that they only quote *one* work by Handel! There's a long list of Handel operas that could perfectly be there.

In terms of position in the ranking, I'd rank Les Troyens, Euryanthe, Macbeth, and Les Pêcheurs de Perles higher, and would downgrade Faust. And it is kind of funny to say you rank operas according to historical importance, innovation, etc, and place Gluck's Orphée at 43 while Gounod's Faust is 23rd.

Question 2 - I've seen 70, and of the remainder 30, 8 are sitting on my unwatched pile or I have tickets to see them this season, and 22 are yet to be purchased or ticketed. These 22 are (I obviously need to watch the two Richard Strauss works as soon as possible; Janacek is a big gap in my exposure; Andrea Chenier is another glaring deficiency, and it's a shame that I haven't seen the most important opera of my own country, Porgy & Bess):

*30. **Porgy & Bess **- George Gershwin*

*33. **Elektra **- Richard Strauss*

*41. **Dido and Aneas **- Henry Purcell*

*42. **The Cunning Little Vixen **- Leos Janacek*

*50. **The Flying Dutchman **- Richard Wagner*

*53. **The Bartered Bride **- Bedrich Smetana*

*57. **Ariadne auf Naxos **- Richard Strauss*

*61. **Andrea Chenier **- Umberto Giordano*

*64. **Jenufa **- Leos Janacek*

*69. **William Tell **- Gioacchino Rossini*

*72. **La Serva Padrona **- Giovanni Pergolesi*

*73. **Die Tote Stadt **- Erich Wolfgang Korngold*

*74. **Louise **- Gustave Charpentier*

*75. **Mefistofele **- Arrigo Boito*

*78. **L'Africaine **- Giacomo Meyerbeer*

*84. **Le Prophete **- Giacomo Meyerbeer *

*85. **Le Coq D'or **- Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakoff *

*88. **The Pilgrim's Progress **- Ralph Vaughan Williams*

*89. **Ernani **- Giuseppe Verdi*

*93. **Prince Igor **- Alexander Borodin*

*98. **Atys **- Jean-Baptiste Lully*

*100. **Martha **- Friederich von Flotow*


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## Jules141

Would've love to have seen Adam's Nixon in China just for a little modern entry, although it pales in comparison to that list unfortunately.


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## superhorn

The Metropolitan Opera is doing Nixon in China this season with the composer conducting,and it will be one of the HD broadcasts and later come out on DVD. I saw the world premiere performance by the Houston opera on PBS back in the 80s.
Actually,I think the underrated Death of Klinghoffer is a greater opera. Some have dismissed it altogether and wrongly cliamed that it's anti-semitic, but having followed the libretto in the booklet of the recording,I don't consider it anti-semitic in the least. 
Doctor Atomic is also a great opera,and available on DVD.


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## DarkAngel

This is definitely an *intellectual / acedemic ranking* trying to subjectively rank "importance" of an opera

A list of most performed or popular operas would look very different and not have 4 Wagner entries in top 15 and Boris Godunov at 11

Many of the fun operas get little respect here...... 

And as you noted severe disrespect to any baroque opera works


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## Rangstrom

Pretty safe list. Light on Dvorak, Smetana, Rimsky-Korsakov, Prokofiev, Glinka and Gluck. I would probably not include Rusticana, Gioconda, Samson, Hansel, Pearl Fishers, Thais or Pilgrim's Progress in my top 100.

Peter Grimes, Mefistofele, Fidelio and Don Carlo(s) track in much higher for me.


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## Nix

I'm guessing you got the list from digitaldreamdoor.com? Those lists are really only good for amateur classical listeners looking for where to start- and thus do not include much modern or baroque (besides Bach), since that generally turns a lot of listeners off.


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## Huilunsoittaja

Woah, there are that many operas?


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## Almaviva

Nix said:


> I'm guessing you got the list from digitaldreamdoor.com? Those lists are really only good for amateur classical listeners looking for where to start- and thus do not include much modern or baroque (besides Bach), since that generally turns a lot of listeners off.


Yes, that's where I got it from, but independently of the source, the list is a good conversation starter; that's why I started the thread. And yes, this would explain it being so thin in Handel and Rameau. In terms of modern operas, they do have a few there, but don't have others, which is an interesting point - it is often hard for me to judge modern operas when compared to the baroque, classical, and romantic ones.


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## Almaviva

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Woah, there are that many operas?


That many? Well, there are 40,000, so, there are about 39,900 more than these 100.


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## ScipioAfricanus

how the heck is Porgy and Bess rated so highly?


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## Almaviva

DarkAngel said:


> This is definitely an *intellectual / acedemic ranking* trying to subjectively rank "importance" of an opera
> 
> A list of most performed or popular operas would look very different and not have 4 Wagner entries in top 15 and Boris Godunov at 11
> 
> Many of the fun operas get little respect here......
> 
> And as you noted severe disrespect to any baroque opera works


Yes, I have a list of the twenty most popular/most performed operas in the United States (not world-wide) and it goes like this:

*1. *​*Madama Butterfly* 
*2. *​*La bohème* 
*3. *​*La traviata* 
*4. *​*Carmen* 
*5. *​*The Barber of Seville* 
*6. *​*The Marriage of Figaro* 
*7. *​*Don Giovanni* 
*8. *​*Tosca* 
*9. *​*Rigoletto* 
*10. *​*The Magic Flute* 
*11. *​*La Cenerentola* 
*12. *​*Turandot* 
*13. *​*Lucia di Lammermoor* 
*14. *​*Pagliacci* 
*15. *​*Così fan tutte* 
*16. *​*Aida* 
*17. *​*Il trovatore* 
*18. *​*Faust* 
*19. *​*Die Fledermaus* 
*20. *​*The Elixir of Love*


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## Almaviva

Rangstrom said:


> Pretty safe list. Light on Dvorak, Smetana, Rimsky-Korsakov, Prokofiev, Glinka and Gluck. I would probably not include Rusticana, Gioconda, Samson, Hansel, Pearl Fishers, Thais or Pilgrim's Progress in my top 100.
> 
> Peter Grimes, Mefistofele, Fidelio and Don Carlo(s) track in much higher for me.


You wouldn't include the Pearl Fishers? I find it more beautiful than Carmen. I also think that Cavaleria Rusticana fully belongs there, not only for its beauty, but also for the importance for Verismo. I'm not crazy about Gioconda or Thaïs either.

I also love Peter Grimes, Fidelio, and Don Carlo(s) and agree that the latter is underrated among other Verdi works. Mefistofele like I said I haven't seen yet.


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## Almaviva

ScipioAfricanus said:


> how the heck is Porgy and Bess rated so highly?


Well, I guess it's considered important for being the first highly successful American opera, for having called for an all-black cast, and for its use of American folk music in a way that was considered innovative in the sense that it was merged with European orchestral music. I once saw another list of top 50 operas of all time (written by a Brit critic so it's not American bias) and it did include Porgy and Bess. It's hard for me to say anything more, since I haven't seen it. All I know of it is Summertime and four or five more arias sung by Renée Fleming and Bryn Terfel in a recital DVD that I have. I must say that with the exception of Summertime, I wasn't very impressed with the other arias, but this may be unfair because isolated pieces often make less sense when they are uncoupled from a complete work so I'm still reserving my opinion until I get to see it.


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## elgar's ghost

Any list is never going to totally please - perhaps it should be retitled 'Suggested Listening' rather than '100 Greatest'. I'm a bit miffed that there's no inclusion of Britten's 'Death in Venice' or Krenek's 'Jonny spielt auf'.


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## Almaviva

elgars ghost said:


> Any list is never going to totally please - perhaps it should be retitled 'Suggested Listening' rather than '100 Greatest'. I'm a bit miffed that there's no inclusion of Britten's 'Death in Venice' or Krenek's 'Jonny spielt auf'.


Hey, it's marketing strategy. "Suggested Listening" will never get as many hits or buys as "100 Greatest."


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## mamascarlatti

The anomaly that jumped out at me was Gounod's Faust. And of course hardly any baroque, and the most glaring omission was Il Ritorno D'ulisse in Patria. Just knock out any random Meyerbeer, although that's not fair as I've only seen L'Africaine. Don Carlo should be higher, and there should be way more Prokofiev.

This is my list of operas that are not in my collection


11. Boris Godunov - Modest Mussorgsky 
33. Elektra - Richard Strauss
54. The Huguenots - Giacomo Meyerbeer
60. Lakme - Leo Delibes
67. Turn of the Screw - Benjamin Britten
68. Duke Bluebeard's Castle - Bela Bartok
73. Die Tote Stadt - Erich Wolfgang Korngold
74. Louise - Gustave Charpentier
75. Mefistofele - Arrigo Boito
77. Semiramide - Gioacchino Rossini
82. Billy Budd - Benjamin Britten
84. Le Prophete - Giacomo Meyerbeer 
87. Les Pecheurs des Perles - Georges Bizet
88. The Pilgrim's Progress - Ralph Vaughan Williams
91. Beatrice et Benedict - Hector Berlioz
96. Euryanthe - Carl Maria von Weber 
98. Atys - Jean-Baptiste Lully
100. Martha - Friederich von Flotow

With several of these the problem is that there is not a DVD version that appeals (Lousie, Pecheurs de Perles, Lakme, Semiramide). I'd love the film of Boris with Raimondi but it's only available on You Tube, so I'm hanging out for Pape on Met Player.

Alma, in your list, I recommend the following, in fact Dido is one of my favourite operas. Get thee to Amazon double quick!


Porgy & Bess - George Gershwin
Dido and Aneas - Henry Purcell
The Flying Dutchman - Richard Wagner
The Bartered Bride - Bedrich Smetana
Ariadne auf Naxos - Richard Strauss
Andrea Chenier - Umberto Giordano
Jenufa - Leos Janacek


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## Guest

Almaviva said:


> the most important opera of my own country, Porgy & Bess)


!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!!???????


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## mamascarlatti

some guy said:


> !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!!???????


Well, go on.


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## Guest

I have to stop hyperventilating, first!


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## jhar26

some guy said:


> !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!!???????


Too many catchy tunes? :lol:


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## Sebastien Melmoth

*Wozzeck* (at #38) is way too low.

*Pique Dame* (#80-something) is absurdly low.

Also, *Boris Godunov* should be in the top ten.

And *Les Contes d'Hoffmann* is too underrated.


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## Guest

I suppose to call any opera the "most important" is rather silly. But when you think of all the operas that have been composed by Americans, _Porgy & Bess_ doesn't seem all that important, does it? It's nice. It's fun to listen to from time to time. But "most important"?

Maybe that's it. The person making this claim has probably NOT thought about all the operas that have been composed by Americans. One thing is for sure, the person who made this claim has also admitted to having never heard more than a handful of arias from it, and has never seen it.

Well, two things are for sure. The second one is that _Porgy & Bess_ is doubtless the most _well-known_ American opera.

And _Bolero_ is Ravel's most well-known work.

And _1812 Overture_ is Tchaikovsky's most well-known work.

And so on....

(So. Am I back in the band, mama?)


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## Sebastien Melmoth

*Porgie and Bess* is important in its jazz-influenced Afro-American originality; although Joplin's *Treemonisha* preceeded it...

I believe *Porgie and Bess* should get more play and be performed by multi-racial casts.


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## jhar26

some guy said:


> I suppose to call any opera the "most important" is rather silly. But when you think of all the operas that have been composed by Americans, _Porgy & Bess_ doesn't seem all that important, does it? It's nice. It's fun to listen to from time to time. But "most important"?
> 
> Maybe that's it. The person making this claim has probably NOT thought about all the operas that have been composed by Americans. One thing is for sure, the person who made this claim has also admitted to having never heard more than a handful of arias from it, and has never seen it.


Or maybe he did see it and loved it more than you do.


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## Guest

jhar, read the posts.

He says that he's never seen it.


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## jhar26

some guy said:


> jhar, read the posts.
> 
> He says that he's never seen it.


Oops. I'm sorry. I thought you were talking about whoever put the list together - not about Almaviva.


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## jhar26

....but I've seen it and I love it, so it's an important opera. At least to me anyway.


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## JSK

Suprised that list doesn't include Glinka, Prokofiev, or Shostakovich. And why is La Gioconda on there?

I've seen/heard about 30 of those, but I will probably get around to all of them at some point in my life.


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## Almaviva

some guy said:


> I suppose to call any opera the "most important" is rather silly. But when you think of all the operas that have been composed by Americans, _Porgy & Bess_ doesn't seem all that important, does it? It's nice. It's fun to listen to from time to time. But "most important"?
> 
> Maybe that's it. The person making this claim has probably NOT thought about all the operas that have been composed by Americans. One thing is for sure, the person who made this claim has also admitted to having never heard more than a handful of arias from it, and has never seen it.
> 
> Well, two things are for sure. The second one is that _Porgy & Bess_ is doubtless the most _well-known_ American opera.
> 
> And _Bolero_ is Ravel's most well-known work.
> 
> And _1812 Overture_ is Tchaikovsky's most well-known work.
> 
> And so on....
> 
> (So. Am I back in the band, mama?)


So what American operas do you rank as more *important* than Porgy and Bess? Have you noticed that this list in my OP ranks operas by *importance*? How else would you interpret this statement of the list makers - "for their innovation and influence, as well as their aesthetic importance, historical significance and lasting popularity"? Only one of their criteria is about popularity, everything else is about importance.

Did I say Porgy and Bess is the *best* American opera? I wouldn't be able to say it, since I haven't seen it. My statement was just in function of the list. Isn't it interesting that in this list and the other one I quoted (by Denis Forman, with his letter rankings) Porgy and Bess is the highest ranked American opera?

Adriana Lecouvreur A
Aida A+
Andrea Chenier B
Suor Angelica C
Ariadne on Naxos C
Attila B
Un ballo in maschera A
The barber of Seville A
Bluebeard's Castle A
Simon Boccanegra A
La Boheme A
Boris Godunov A
Madama Butterfly A
Don Carlos A+
Carmen A+
Cavalleria Rusticana A
La Cenerentola A
La Clemenza di Tito B
Cosi fan tute A+
Dido and Aeneas A
Don Giovanni A+
Don Pasquale A
The Threepenny Opera B
The flying Dutchman A
Elektra A
L'elisir d'amore A+
The escape from the Seraglio B
Ernani - Verdi B
Eugene Onegin A
Falstaff B
La fanciulla del West B
Faust - Gounod B
Fidelio A
The marriage of Figaro A+
Die Fledermaus B
La forza del destino B
Freischutz - weber A
Gianni Schicchi A+
La Gioconda B
Giulio Cesare B
Hansel and Gretel A
Idomeneo - Mozart A
Iphigenia in Tauris B
L'italiana in Algeri A
Khovanshchina B
Lakme - Delibes C
Manon Lescaut B- 
I Lombardi B
Lucia di Lammermoor A
Luisa Miller - Verdi A
Macbeth - Verdi A
The magic flute A
Maria Stuarda A-
Meistersinger A+
Norma A
Orpheus and Eurydice A
Otello A
I Pagliacci A
Parsifal A
The pearl fishers A
Pelleas et melisande A
*Porgy and Bess A*
I puritani A
Rigoletto A
Rhinegold A++
Valkyrie A++
Siegfried A++
Gotterdammerung A++
La rondine C
Rosenkavalier A
Salome A
The Sicilian vespers B
La sonnambula A-
Il tabarro A-
Tannhauser B
William tell B
Tosca A+
La traviata A+
Tristan und Isolde A
Il trovatore A
Turandot A-
Werther B
Wozzeck A

So, regardless of how you feel about this being silly, it looks like there are other silly people to keep me company.

Hey, I just found another list. Again, the *only* American opera quoted is Porgy and Bess - that's three lists already. So, you should better come up with justifications on why Porgy and Bess is *not* the most important American opera, because there's a bunch of people who believe it is.

Claudio Monteverdi : (1567 - 1643 ). L'Orfeo. (Orpheus and Euridice). L'Incoronazione di Poppea. (The Coronation of Poppea , based on the life of the emperor Nero.) Henry Purcell (1659 -1695 ) Dido and Anaeas.
George Frideric Handel (1685 - 1759 ) Giulio Cesare (Julius Caesar). Alcina (pronounced al-chee-na). 
Christoph Willibald Gluck (1714 - 1787 ). Orfeo & Euridice. Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart ( 1756 - 1791 ) Le Nozze di Figaro (The Marriage of Figaro), Don Giovanni, Cosi Fan Tutte (So do they all ), Die Zauberflote (The Magic Flute), Die Entfuhrung Aus dem Serail (The Abduction From The Seraglio ), Idomeneo.
Ludwig van Beethoven (1770 - 1827 ). Fidelio. Carl Maria von Weber (1786 - 1826 ) Der Freischutz. 
Gioacchino Rossini (1792 - 1868 ) Il Barbiere di Sviglia (The Barber of Seville), La Cenerentola (Cinderella), L'Italiana in Algeri (The Italian Woman in Algiers ). Vincenzo Bellini (1801 - 1835 ) . Norma . I Puritani. La Sonnambula (The Sleepwalker ). Donizetti, Gaetano (1797 - 1848 ). Lucia di Lammermoor. Don Pasquale, L'Elisir d'Amore (The Elixir of Love ). 
Giuseppe Verdi (1813 - 1901 ). Rigoletto. La Traviata . Il Trovatore. Un Ballo in Maschera. (A Masked Ball ), La Forza del Destino (The Power of Destiny ), Don Carlo, Macbeth, Otello , Falstaff. Arrigo Boito (1842 - 1918 ) Mefistofele. Amilcare Ponchiellei (1834 - 1887 ). La Gioconda. Pietro Mascagni (1863 - 1945 ) Cavalleria Rusticana (Rustic Chivalry ) Ruggero Leoncavallo (1857 - 1918 ) Pagliacci. Giacomo Puccini (1858 - 1924 ), La Boheme, Tosca, Madama Butterfly, Manon Lescaut, Turandot.
Georges Bizet (1838 - 1875 ) Carmen. Jules Massenet ( 1842 - 1912 ), Manon, Werther, Thais. Camille Saint -Saens (1835 - 1921 ) Samson & Dalilah. Leo Delibes . Lakme. Charles Gounod (1818 - 1893 ) Faust. Romeo & Juliette. Claude Debussy ( 1862 - 1918 ) Pelleas & Melisande. 
Peter Ilyich Tchaikovsky. (1840 - 1893 ) Eugene Onegin. Queen of Spades. Modest Mussorgsky (1839 - 1881 ). Boris Godunov. Khovanshchina. Bedrich Smetana (1824 - 1884) The Bartred Bride. Antonin Dvorak (1841 - 1904 ) Rusalka. Leos Janacek (1854 - 1928 ) Jenufa. Katya Kabanova. The Cunning Little Vixen. From the House of the Dead. 
Richard Wagner (1813 - 1883 ). Der Fliegende Hollander (The Flying Dutchman. ) Tannhauser. Lohengrin. The Ring : Das Rheingold. Die Walkure, Siegfried. Gotterdammerung (Twilight of the Gods). Tristan & Isolde. Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg (The Mastersingers of Nuremberg). Parsifal. Engelbert Humperdinck (1854 - 1921 ), Hansel & Gretel. Richard Strauss (1864 - 1949 . Salome Elelktra. Der Rosenkavalier. Ariadne auf Naxos. Die Frau Ohne Schatten (The Woman Without a Shadow ), Arabella, Capriccio. 
Alban Berg (1885 - 1935) Wozzeck. Lulu. Arnold Schoenberg (1874 - 1951 ). Moses & Aron. *George Gershwin (1898 - 1937 ) Porgy and Bess*. Benjamin Britten (1913 - 1976 ) Peter Grimes. Billy Budd.
Sergei Prokofiev (1891 - 1953 ) The Love For Three Oranges. War And Peace. Dimitri Shostakovich (1906 - 1975 ), Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk District.

----

OK, this is from Wikipedia and some would object to using Wikipedia to back an argument up, but you know, they got references, I just don't want to waste time exploring them, and again, someone wrote this article, therefore this someone agrees with me as well:

His most ambitious composition was _Porgy and Bess_ (1935). Gershwin called it a "folk opera," *and it is now widely regarded as the most important American opera of the twentieth century*. Based on the novel _Porgy_ by DuBose Heyward, the action takes place in the fictional all-black neighborhood of Catfish Row in Charleston, South Carolina. With the exception of several minor speaking roles, all of the characters are black. The music combines elements of popular music of the day, with a strong influence of Black music, with techniques typical of opera, such as recitative, through-composition and an extensive system of leitmotifs. _Porgy and Bess_ contains some of Gershwin's most sophisticated music, including a fugue, a passacaglia, the use of atonality, polytonality and polyrhythm, and a tone row. Even the "set numbers" (of which "Summertime", "I Got Plenty o' Nuttin'" and "It Ain't Necessarily So" are well known examples) are some of the most refined and ingenious of Gershwin's output.

-------------------

So, the ball is on your camp. What other American opera is more *important* than Porgy and Bess? Amahl and the Night Visitors? Susannah? Candide? Trouble in Tahiti? Sweeney Todd? Little Women? The Ballad of Baby Doe? A Little Night Music? Dead Man Walking? A Quiet Place? West Side Story (if you consider it an opera)? I don't think so. These are fine operas, but not more *important* than Porgy and Bess. And look, you may come up with some nice recent works, but remember that they're still to withstand the test of time, which Porgy and Bess has done already.

I think you'll have some trouble proving your case (please back it up with references, lists, etc) unless you consider The Rake's Progress to be an American opera, since Stravinsky was a naturalized US citizen when he composed it. That's your best bet, but I think everybody thinks of Stravinsky as Russian, and The Rake's Progress didn't even have its world première in America.


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## Guest

Almaviva,

With all your restrictions, you have made it clear, at least to me, that no matter what I say, it will be rejected. So I refuse to play.

I'll content myself with pointing out that the makers of these lists, all three of them, are probably no more _au courant_ with American operas than you are. Not surprising, really, when you think about it. And the list of American operas that you came up with is not a very impressive one. I should say, it didn't impress me.

Besides, isn't it much more rewarding to go out and hear a few operas than it is to wrangle online about how to rank them? (I might just have to give _Neither_ a spin right now, just because I can.)


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## Chi_townPhilly

DarkAngel said:


> And as you noted severe disrespect to any baroque opera works


I've said before that my journey down this road of opera began with a book belonging to my Mother (now with me), the _Milton Cross Stories of the Great Operas_. For those who are younger than half-a-century or more in age, Milton Cross was the radio host of the Metropolitan Opera broadcasts, predating Owen Lee in that capacity. The book is roughly a decade older than I am. If counting Wagner's _Ring_ operas as four separate works, there are 72 separate opera summaries in this book. Of those, there are NONE by Handel.

For another perpspective, I pored over _The New Kobbé's Complete Opera Book_, which contains briefer summaries, but over 300 of them. This tome has four Handel opera summaries, which (by comparision) is the same total as J. Strauss and 'Raif' (Vaughan-Williams).

If there's any composer of opera who can be said to have earned the "bullet" (sharpest rise up the charts) in recent years, it's Handel. More than a few people have opined that Handel deserves recognition among the top opera composers of all-time, an expression that would have been met with puzzled stares and possibly rolled eyes years ago. There is one well-travelled internet "personality" who unabashedly claims that Handel is THE GREATEST opera composer of all time.

Whether Handel's operas will retain their declination in the musical firmament is a question that will have a clearer answer over the next couple of generations.


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## Almaviva

some guy said:


> Almaviva,
> 
> With all your restrictions, you have made it clear, at least to me, that no matter what I say, it will be rejected. So I refuse to play.
> 
> I'll content myself with pointing out that the makers of these lists, all three of them, are probably no more _au courant_ with American operas than you are. Not surprising, really, when you think about it. And the list of American operas that you came up with is not a very impressive one. I should say, it didn't impress me.
> 
> Besides, isn't it much more rewarding to go out and hear a few operas than it is to wrangle online about how to rank them? (I might just have to give _Neither_ a spin right now, just because I can.)


Buddy, I don't want to impress anybody, so, I don't care if my list of American operas doesn't impress you.
You reacted to a simple thread to start a conversation with sarcasm, assumptions about me and my exposure to opera, and words like "silly."
You made a point that Porgy and Bess is not the most important American opera, but you didn't even back your statement up by quoting a single one that you consider to be more important. I should say, what *you* came up with is not very impressive - that is, nothing, just empty speech and gratuitous criticism.
Then you say you don't want to play. Well, this doesn't surprise me. Maybe you're not *able* to play (at the very least, not able to play nicely).
Let me tell you, buddy, isn't it much more rewarding to treat other people nicely than it is to be sarcastic and overcritical, and then prove yourself unable or unwilling to sustain the argument?
My interest in what you have to say has just ended. Since you gave me a piece of unsolicited advice (to go out and hear a few operas - which I do more than enough, thank you), let me at least return the favor with some advice of my own: go out and practice a little bit of people skills.


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## Almaviva

Chi_townPhilly said:


> I've said before that my journey down this road of opera began with a book belonging to my Mother (now with me), the _Milton Cross Stories of the Great Operas_. For those who are younger than half-a-century or more in age, Milton Cross was the radio host of the Metropolitan Opera broadcasts, predating Owen Lee in that capacity. The book is roughly a decade older than I am. If counting Wagner's _Ring_ operas as four separate works, there are 72 separate opera summaries in this book. Of those, there are NONE by Handel.
> 
> For another perpspective, I pored over _The New Kobbé's Complete Opera Book_, which contains briefer summaries, but over 300 of them. This tome has four Handel opera summaries, which (by comparision) is the same total as J. Strauss and 'Raif' (Vaughan-Williams).
> 
> If there's any composer of opera who can be said to have earned the "bullet" (sharpest rise up the charts) in recent years, it's Handel. More than a few people have opined that Handel deserves recognition among the top opera composers of all-time, an expression that would have been met with puzzled stares and possibly rolled eyes years ago. There is one well-travelled internet "personality" who unabashedly claims that Handel is THE GREATEST opera composer of all time.
> 
> Whether Handel's operas will retain their declination in the musical firmament is a question that will have a clearer answer over the next couple of generations.


Didn't we have a thread a while ago about the greatest opera composers? If I'm not mistaken, in that thread I placed Handel and Berlioz among the top ten, which raised some eyebrows (especially regarding the latter given his small production, but I'd still place him there). I'm not sure if this thread was here or in another web site. Well, if it wasn't here, maybe we should start one at some point.

In another guide that I own, by Mathew Boyden, Handel deserves nine summaries, which is not bad (more than most): Agrippina, Rinaldo, Giulio Cesare, Tamerlano, Orlando, Ariodante, Alcina, Serse, and Semele. Others that get quoted but don't get summaries: Almira, Nero, Florindo, Doro, Rodrigo, Il Pastor Fido, Tesseo, Amadigi di Gaula, and Radamisto, as well as a handful of his oratorios that approach most the operatic structure. Not bad. Definitely there is a Handel revival.

Edit: Yep, it was here, the thread was called Fav Operas, and in post 151 I said:

http://www.talkclassical.com/111194-post151.html

"I'm forgetting another one who is vastly underrated - *Handel* and his 42 operas. He has numerous exquisite works, but people tend to overlook him given that baroque is farther removed from contemporary taste, and because they pay more attention to his oratorios. However anybody who gets into the mood and digs into his opera production is in for a lot of pleasure."

Then, further down in the post, I placed Handel as my 6th top opera composer of all time.

Interesting how these things change. Since I posted that post - barely two months ago - my appreciation of Rossini and Donizetti went up while Puccini went down. Today I'd probably place Handel fifth, Rossini and Donizetti sixth and seventh, and Puccini eight. A few months from now it may change again.


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## Chi_townPhilly

*and, as long as I'm having fun quoting from an interesting post...*

*AND trying to keep the interpersonal stuff to a minimum, here...*


DarkAngel said:


> A list of most performed or popular operas would look very different and not have 4 Wagner entries in top 15 and Boris Godunov at 11


I think I understand your point- but there's a dichotomy between _ most performed_ and _most popular_, epecially as concerns Wagner.

Wagner will never rate highest on a _most performed_ list... primarily because there are a limited number of singers who can perform the works adequately, to say nothing of doing so creditably. But as concerns popularity...

I know I've mentioned this before- and apologies to those who are tired of hearing me say this... but there is one (and only one) unit that was manufacturer-classified as 'Classical' that's outsold the Solti _Ring Cycle_ set- and that's the "Three Tenors" disc. And needless to say- there's some definitional generosity involved in calling the latter enterprise a 'Classical' recording. So- in terms of popularity of recorded music, music from Wagner operas is at or near the top, by that metric---


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## Almaviva

Chi_townPhilly said:


> *AND trying to keep the interpersonal stuff to a minimum, here...*I think I understand your point- but there's a dichotomy between _most performed_ and _most popular_, epecially as concerns Wagner.
> 
> Wagner will never rate highest on a _most performed_ list... primarily because there are a limited number of singers who can perform the works adequately, to say nothing of doing so creditably. But as concerns popularity...
> 
> I know I've mentioned this before- and apologies to those who are tired of hearing me say this... but there is one (and only one) unit that was manufacturer-classified as 'Classical' that's outsold the Solti _Ring Cycle_ set- and that's the "Three Tenors" disc. And needless to say- there's some definitional generosity involved in calling the latter enterprise a 'Classical' recording. So- in terms of popularity of recorded music, music from Wagner operas is at or near the top, by that metric---


Like I said, the original list was only marginally concerned with popularity, and more concerned with importance.

And yes, Wagner is definitely popular. Another example, although minor: Met in HD in my local multiplex usually occupies one small room. For the recent Rheingold, however, they had to open two bigger rooms.

Another reason why Wagner's operas are rarely performed is that the demands on the opera company are many, it's not just the problem of finding appropriate singers.

Same problem with Berlioz's Les Troyens: gorgeous, but rarely staged because it is so darn difficult to stage.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Almaviva said:


> Others that get quoted but don't get summaries: Almira, Nero, Florindo, Doro, Rodrigo, Il Pastor Fido, Tesseo, Amadigi di Gaula, and Radamisto, as well as a handful of his oratorios that approach most the operatic structure. Not bad. Definitely there is a Handel revival.


Some correction:-
_Nero_ (Hamburg, 1705), music is lost.
_Florindo_, _Daphne_ (Hamburg, 1708) were actually one opera but broken into two long parts. Again, music is lost.

Both were early pieces, written by the young Handel.

Thanks largely (I would say enitrely) to historically informed performances and scholars, Handel's operas have enjoyed a resurgence literally unseen since the works' premiere three centuires ago. All the operas have been recorded (except the two/three lost, listed above), and I have them all on recording.

In my mind, a fine opera is not necessarily about a few catchy tunes that folks can whistle to over the centuries. But that of strong musical characterisation of the opera's characters at precisely the right moments during the unfolding drama with all the emotions they carry. On the whole, I think the four greatest operatic talents ever were Handel, Mozart, Wagner and Verdi. (Sometimes I include Puccini, sometimes I don't).


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## Almaviva

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Some correction:-
> _Nero_ (Hamburg, 1705), music is lost.
> _Florindo_, _Daphne_ (Hamburg, 1708) were actually one opera but broken into two long parts. Again, music is lost.
> 
> Both were early pieces, written by the young Handel.
> 
> Thanks largely (I would say enitrely) to historically informed performances and scholars, Handel's operas have enjoyed a resurgence literally unseen since the works' premiere three centuires ago. All the operas have been recorded (except the two/three lost, listed above), and I have them all on recording.
> 
> In my mind, a fine opera is not necessarily about a few catchy tunes that folks can whistle to over the centuries. But that of strong musical characterisation of the opera's characters at precisely the right moments during the unfolding drama with all the emotions they carry. On the whole, I think the four greatest operatic talents ever were Handel, Mozart, Wagner and Verdi. (Sometimes I include Puccini, sometimes I don't).


Wow, you have them all?? Nice! Which ones are your favorites?


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## Almaviva

mamascarlatti said:


> Alma, in your list, I recommend the following, in fact Dido is one of my favourite operas. Get thee to Amazon double quick!
> 
> 
> Porgy & Bess - George Gershwin
> Dido and Aneas - Henry Purcell
> The Flying Dutchman - Richard Wagner
> The Bartered Bride - Bedrich Smetana
> Ariadne auf Naxos - Richard Strauss
> Andrea Chenier - Umberto Giordano
> Jenufa - Leos Janacek


Thanks for the suggestions, Natalie, but I'm under a spending ban... Which I broke yesterday with_ Admeto_ and _Cadmus et Hermione_... I'm surprised that my wife hasn't seen the new charges yet... I'll get an earful tomorrow.

But I'll get to them eventually, I promise.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Almaviva said:


> Wow, you have them all?? Nice! Which ones are your favorites?


Tough question! I get asked that often and I feel I'm being unfair on these works. I rather help the listener on particular works that he/she is about to explore. For example, _Admeto_ that you bought is very good. I don't have that particular version, though I intend to get it soon. (Mine is played by Il Complesso Barocco under Alan Curtis, with Rene Jacobs taking the title role). It's quite a dramatic piece like most of the Royal Academy operas.


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## Almaviva

mamascarlatti said:


> This is my list of operas that are not in my collection
> 
> 
> 11. Boris Godunov - Modest Mussorgsky
> 33. Elektra - Richard Strauss
> 54. The Huguenots - Giacomo Meyerbeer
> 60. Lakme - Leo Delibes
> 67. Turn of the Screw - Benjamin Britten
> 68. Duke Bluebeard's Castle - Bela Bartok
> 73. Die Tote Stadt - Erich Wolfgang Korngold
> 74. Louise - Gustave Charpentier
> 75. Mefistofele - Arrigo Boito
> 77. Semiramide - Gioacchino Rossini
> 82. Billy Budd - Benjamin Britten
> 84. Le Prophete - Giacomo Meyerbeer
> 87. Les Pecheurs des Perles - Georges Bizet
> 88. The Pilgrim's Progress - Ralph Vaughan Williams
> 91. Beatrice et Benedict - Hector Berlioz
> 96. Euryanthe - Carl Maria von Weber
> 98. Atys - Jean-Baptiste Lully
> 100. Martha - Friederich von Flotow
> With several of these the problem is that there is not a DVD version that appeals (Lousie, Pecheurs de Perles, Lakme, Semiramide).


Beatrice et Benedict doesn't exist on DVD. I have a CD.
I think that the Lakmé DVD with Joan Sutherland, while not great, is decent.
Same can be said of the existing Les Pêcheurs de Perles (I think there is just one, from La Fenice - while not ideal, it is relatively OK and worth having in my opinion).
The Euryanthe from Teatro Lirico di Cagliari is actually good.
Apparently Elektra has a number of good versions, one of them was even included in that essential DVDs thread.
The Boris Godunov that I have is pretty bad. Same with Les Huguenots.


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## mamascarlatti

some guy said:


> I suppose to call any opera the "most important" is rather silly. But when you think of all the operas that have been composed by Americans, _Porgy & Bess_ doesn't seem all that important, does it? It's nice. It's fun to listen to from time to time. But "most important"?
> 
> Well, two things are for sure. The second one is that _Porgy & Bess_ is doubtless the most _well-known_ American opera...
> (So. Am I back in the band, mama?)


Well, seriously, I am curious. I have a very limited acquaintance with American opera, only knowing the aforementioned Porgy and Bess, + Akhenaten (and I love that one), Satyagraha, Einstein on the Beach, Waiting for the Barbarians, Nixon in China and Dr Atomic. Planning to get "Death of Klinghoffer" and thinking about "Little Women", mainly because Joyce DiDonato is in the DVD that's coming out..

So without us getting snarly again, please, I am genuinely interested to know what you consider to be the most important American opera, because I am too uninformed about this to have an opinion. (Secretly hoping you'll say Akhenaten)


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## mamascarlatti

Almaviva said:


> Beatrice et Benedict doesn't exist on DVD. I have a CD.
> I think that the Lakmé DVD with Joan Sutherland, while not great, is decent.
> Same can be said of the existing Les Pêcheurs de Perles (I think there is just one, from La Fenice - while not ideal, it is relatively OK and worth having in my opinion).
> The Euryanthe from Teatro Lirico di Cagliari is actually good.
> Apparently Elektra has a number of good versions, one of them was even included in that essential DVDs thread.
> The Boris Godunov that I have is pretty bad. Same with Les Huguenots.


I am planning to get that Euryanthe some time, and the Elektra recommende by Gaston is on my wishlist.

I was put off the Pecheurs DVD by the universal condemnation of the tenor Nakajima's voice and acting so I might wait until there is a better on on DVD.

Which Boris and Huguenots do you have?


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## Almaviva

mamascarlatti said:


> Well, seriously, I am curious. I have a very limited acquaintance with American opera, only knowing the aforementioned Porgy and Bess, + Akhenaten (and I love that one), Satyagraha, Einstein on the Beach, Waiting for the Barbarians, Nixon in China and Dr Atomic. Planning to get "Death of Klinghoffer" and thinking about "Little Women", mainly because Joyce DiDonato is in the DVD that's coming out..
> 
> So without us getting snarly again, please, I am genuinely interested to know what you consider to be the most important American opera, because I am too uninformed about this to have an opinion. (Secretly hoping you'll say Akhenaten)


From Mathew Boyden's book (which *does* list all of the above plus all that I had quoted and many more, and comments on all of them in detail - so much for the idea that Boyden is unfamiliar with other American operas), page 534: "Today _Porgy _is regarded as the greatest of all American operas." QED.

No, seriously, like I said before, I think anything by Glass, Corigliano, or Adams still needs to pass the test of time to be considered more important than Porgy and Bess. Another indicator: _Porgy and Bess_ according to Opera America is by far the most performed American opera when you consider professional companies (amateur groups have a strange fascination for _Ahmal_ and the fact that it is often performed for children and often repeated on Christmas Eve helps its numbers - but again, it can't be compared in importance to _Porgy)._

Whoever says _Akhenaten, Dr. Atomic, _etc, is expressing an *opinion* that these are notable operas, but the *consensual fact* (that's why I asked the user to back up whatever alternative he proposed with quotes and references - and the fact that we're still waiting should tell you something) is that _Porgy _remains the most *important* American opera to date, and certainly at the very least, expressing this consensus is not a matter for ridicule.

On page 536 Boyden adds: "_Porgy and Bess_" is emphatically a true opera: it's music is continuous, its score is rigorously structured and threaded with leitmotifs, and the highly developed melodies call for a classical singing technique - especially Porgy, whose role is frequently cut to lessen the strain. Achieving a feeling of authenticity not through cheap stunts but primarily through "blue note" harmony and syncopated rhythm, Gershwin created what remains opera's only successful treatment of African-American experience."


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## Almaviva

mamascarlatti said:


> I am planning to get that Euryanthe some time, and the Elektra recommende by Gaston is on my wishlist.
> 
> I was put off the Pecheurs DVD by the universal condemnation of the tenor Nakajima's voice and acting so I might wait until there is a better on on DVD.
> 
> Which Boris and Huguenots do you have?


Boris - Bolshoi 1978, very old and stiff:










Huguenots - Australia Opera 1990 - actually interesting for the fact that it is Sutherland's last live performance of her career with some 30 minutes of curtain calls and a farewell ceremony, but other than for that, not that good:










About _Pêcheurs, _yep, Nakajima wasn't that good, but given that there is no alternative and I love the opera, it's still decent, in my opinion. When a new one comes up then I'll replace it.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> I think the four greatest operatic talents ever were Handel, Mozart, Wagner and Verdi.


I'd agree, although I might be tempted to trade Britten for Verdi. I've only recently "discovered" Handel's operas, and - having been a Wagner nut for most of my life - I'm coming around to the view that Handel was the greatest opera composer of them all. It's a _very_ close call between him, Wagner and Mozart, but for me he might just beat the other two in a photo-finish.

I don't think there's a single dud Handel opera I've heard or seen (and, like you, I've heard/seen nearly all of them), whereas "early/middle period" Mozart and Wagner operas certainly have quite a few lapses and longueurs amid the flashes of genius.


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## joen_cph

Would like to know the exact criteria for these valuations on the initial 100 list. As has been mentioned, it excludes a lot of quite well-known operas, but even whole regional cultural spheres: there are no Scandinavian or Spanish operas for example, neither some other works of at least important national status like Szymanowski´s King Roger. Likewise Busoni´s Doktor Faustus or those of, say, Delius, Magnard, Chausson, Messiaen, Roussel, Enescu, Zandonai, Hindemith, Schoenberg etc. are absent, whereas Verdi is represented with a large number of operas.

The world has apparently come to a halt around 1951 - 1953 ("The Rake´s Progress", "Dialogue des Carmelites"), and musical history stopped with Berg and Bartok- who were happily replaced by Stravinskian and a French, if more sinister, neoclassicism, though. In general there are extremely few operas from the 20th-century on the list, whereas the 19th dominates. One could of course argue that "time will tell" ... later ... which post-1951 operas were important, but _some _people out there must have at least a clue already ...

To include a work like "La Fille Du Regiment" and exclude some of the other ones seems way off, from _any_ perspective - being it musically, as regards innovation, literary value or historical-political importance ... so the exact criteria must be based especially on popularity. And due to the lack of scope or an aspect of modern avantgarde controversialism, the list is not very academic.


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## jhar26

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> On the whole, I think the four greatest operatic talents ever were Handel, Mozart, Wagner and Verdi. (Sometimes I include Puccini, sometimes I don't).


Monteverdi also is a contender. He practically invented the genre. There were one or two operas that preceded his l'Orfeo, but they consisted of nothing but recitatives. So l'Orfeo was really the first 'legitimate' opera. He created a masterpiece virtually out of nowhere, and his other two operas that we're familiar with are great as well. Unfortunately most of his operas have been lost. Had they survived Monteverdi would be up there as one of the top four or five opera composers in history considering that he's already one of the greats of the genre on the basis of just three operas.


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## mamascarlatti

jhar26 said:


> Monteverdi also is a contender. He practically invented the genre. There were one or two operas that preceded his l'Orfeo, but they consisted of nothing but recitatives. So l'Orfeo was really the first 'legitimate' opera. He created a masterpiece virtually out of nowhere, and his other two operas that we're familiar with are great as well. Unfortunately most of his operas have been lost. Had they survived Monteverdi would be up there as one of the top four or five opera composers in history considering that he's already one of the greats of the genre on the basis of just three operas.


Monteverdi is an opera god. One of my recurring fantasies is that some scholar discovers a cache of Monteverdi operas in some dusty archive one day.


----------



## Almaviva

joen_cph said:


> Would like to know the exact criteria for these valuations on the initial 100 list. As has been mentioned, it excludes a lot of quite well-known operas, but even whole regional cultural spheres: there are no Scandinavian or Spanish operas for example, neither some other works of at least important national status like Szymanowski´s King Roger. Likewise Busoni´s Doktor Faustus or those of, say, Delius, Magnard, Chausson, Messiaen, Roussel, Enescu, Zandonai, Hindemith, Schoenberg etc. are absent, whereas Verdi is represented with a large number of operas.
> 
> The world has apparently come to a halt around 1951 - 1953 ("The Rake´s Progress", "Dialogue des Carmelites"), and musical history stopped with Berg and Bartok- who were happily replaced by Stravinskian and a French, if more sinister, neoclassicism, though. In general there are extremely few operas from the 20th-century on the list, whereas the 19th dominates. One could of course argue that "time will tell" ... later ... which post-1951 operas were important, but _some _people out there must have at least a clue already ...
> 
> To include a work like "La Fille Du Regiment" and exclude some of the other ones seems way off, from _any_ perspective - being it musically, as regards innovation, literary value or historical-political importance ... so the exact criteria must be based especially on popularity. And due to the lack of scope or an aspect of modern avantgarde controversialism, the list is not very academic.


Interesting post, thank you. The criteria are spelled out in the original post, so I guess they were going primarily for importance rather than popularity - like some other users pointed out, this explains the difference between the top 20 in this 100 list from the 20 most popular ones which I posted as well further down. Boris Godunov at 11th is an example of an important but not popular opera.

About Spain - but they composed mostly zarzuelas. Who else in terms of true operas? Maybe Manuel de Falla with La Vida Breve and El Retable do Maese Pedro. Others like Martin Y Soler and felipe Pedrell are even less known outside of Spain.

I think that Verdi being represented by several operas is appropriate. I do believe in the importance of Verdi and think that he was innovative enough, going from numbers operas Bel Canto style to scenes to through composition.

La Fille du Regiment - I partially agree; like I said, I'd prefer to see more of Donizetti's serious work like Maria Stuarda, Roberto Devereux, Lucretia Borgia.

I need some more exposure to 20th century operas beyond the usual suspects (R. Strauss, Puccini, Britten, Berg, Stravinsky, Schoenber, Korngold, Weill, Bartók, Prokofiev, Ravel, Gershwin, Poulenc, Shostakovich) and most of these were included in the list, although I think not including an astouding masterpiece like Shostakovich's Lady Macbeth of Mtsenks District was a big blunder. I need to see The Nose. Another big blunder is the absence of Szymanowski and his Król Roger which is sitting on my unwatched pile in a recent blu-ray.



> One could of course argue that "time will tell" ... later ... which post-1951 operas were important, but _some _people out there must have at least a clue already ...


Regarding the second half of the 20th century I'm a lot more in trouble if we don't count late Britten and Poulenc. I do have Ligeti's Le Grand Macabre sitting on my unwatched pile as well, and tickets to see Nixon in China.

You seem to be knowledgeable about it, can I pick your brain? So what do you recommend to get so that I become more current with the best recent ones?

Let's see what I can come up with based on lists I have, and please comment on what I should select among these, or what else you would suggest:

Saint François d'Assise - Messiaen (this is supposed to be very good)
Intolleranza 1960 - Nono
Un Re in Ascolto - Berio
Luci mie traditrici - Sciarrino
Dantos Tod - von Einem
Die Soldaten - Zimmermann
Boulevard Solitute; Der junge Lord; and The Bassarids - Henze
Lear - Reimann
Licht: Montag; Dienstag; Donnerstag; Samstag - Stckhausen
Die Eroberung von Mexico - Rihm
Le Grand Macabre - Ligeti - I have this one already
Die Teufel von Loudun - Pendereck
Life with an Idiot - Schnittke
The Red Line; Kullervo - Sallinen
Thomas - Rautavaara
The Handmaid's Tale - Ruders
De Materie; Rosa - Andriessen
The Midsummer Marriage; King Priam; The Knot Garden - Tippett
Troilus and Cressida; The Bear - Walton
Punch and Judy; The Mask of Orpheus; Gawain - Birtwistle
The Martyrdom of Saint Magnus; The Lighthouse; Resurrection - Davies
The Man Who Mistook his Wife for a Hat - Nyman
Mary of Egypt - Tavener
King Harald's Saga; A Night at the Chinese Opera; Blond Eckbert - Weir
Greek - Turnage
Powder her Face - Adès
Marco Polo - Tan Dun
(I'm not including Britten, Menotti, Barber, Bernstein, Floyd, Glass, Corigliano, or Adams)


----------



## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> Monteverdi also is a contender. He practically invented the genre. There were one or two operas that preceded his l'Orfeo, but they consisted of nothing but recitatives. So l'Orfeo was really the first 'legitimate' opera. He created a masterpiece virtually out of nowhere, and his other two operas that we're familiar with are great as well. Unfortunately most of his operas have been lost. Had they survived Monteverdi would be up there as one of the top four or five opera composers in history considering that he's already one of the greats of the genre on the basis of just three operas.


Good point. But then, we can only speculate. What if the lost ones weren't as good? What is said about them by scholars?

There is also _Combattimento di Tancredi e Clorinda_, released by Opus Arte - it's only one scene, it's more madrigal than opera, only 23 minutes long, but *extremely* beautiful.


----------



## joen_cph

> There is also Combattimento di Tancredi e Clorinda, released by Opus Arte - it's only one scene, it's more madrigal than opera, only 23 minutes long, but *extremely* beautiful.


Agree, it is a work of rare beauty, worth seing and having, also in several versions.



> can I pick your brain?


- I´m afraid you´d have to leave the table still somewhat hungry, since instrumental and vocal concertante music have been my favourite areas of exploring so far. There is no doubt that you know much, much more about the opera repertoire than I do - and to an impressive degree indeed. The reasons for my somewhat grudging remarks are the obvious limitations and conservatisms in the initial list that hadn´t been pointed at so much by other posters yet.

As regards the field of contemporary opera, the by far most knowledgeable among Danish music critics, Hansgeorg Lenz (born 1926) has pointed to Stockhausen´s "Licht" cycle as a possible sequel of our age to the Wagner "Ring". Perhaps it should be mentioned here that Lenz emphasizes that beauty exists in that work also, as opposed to the composer´s usual reputation for "ugliness" in music and for being elitist and incomprehensible into the extreme. It is one of the works I´ll explore myself in the future. The problem of course with such experimenting contemporary operas is their complexity and that they take so long to learn to know better and appreciate, I think even more than purely instrumental works. Perhaps someone here has had positive - or at least not too-negative - experiences with "Licht", or parts thereof ? Another opera Lenz mentions as a masterpiece (being slightly inclined to DG issue policy as he is, though luckily not limited to that, on the contrary) is Messiaen´s "St. Francois D´Assise", where I have seen the strangely fascinating scene with the sermon to birds pictured on television screens and heard some other excerpts, but its overall religious scheme makes the work less appealing to me. That said, I must admit that I often go for the music - initially at least - as regards appreciation of operas.

In Denmark, Nørgård´s "La Nuit des Hommes", in a video production by Jakob F. Shokking (yes, that is his name !) was an unusually moving experience as regards music theatre to me. It is a violent but melodically rather approachable work. Whereas Nørgård´s "Siddharta" and "Det Guddommelige Tivoli / The Divine Tivoli", though ambitious on the literary level, have been less musically interesting to me so far - though this might change.

We have other opera composers in Denmark - Bent Sørensen, John Frandsen, Ib Nørholm to mention some, and Poul Ruder´s, whose "The Handmaid´s Tale" you likewise mention got very positive criticism, both at home and internationally, as a masterpiece. The much earlier Langgaard opera "Antichrist", though containing some impressive music, seems to be too much of a mish-mash of very old-fashioned religious figurations and symbols bordering to the psychotic to be taken totally serious nowadays. Opinions are very divided here whether Nielsen´s operas ("Saul & David", "Maskerade") can be considered important or of much value in a more contemporary sense.

PS: Concerning popularity - it is of course a very relative thing. Whereas "Boris Godunov" may not be that very popular in the West, there is no doubt that is would be considered in the top 5 among a Russian public, being so much a part of Russian musical identity as Pushkin is in their poetry ... Popularity results will differ depending on how and where they are measured. Taste is different in Northern, Mid- and South Europe, the US or the UK. In popularity lists these circumstances of where and how the polls are made are important, of course.


----------



## HarpsichordConcerto

jhar26 said:


> Monteverdi also is a contender. He practically invented the genre. There were one or two operas that preceded his l'Orfeo, but they consisted of nothing but recitatives. So l'Orfeo was really the first 'legitimate' opera. He created a masterpiece virtually out of nowhere, and his other two operas that we're familiar with are great as well. Unfortunately most of his operas have been lost. Had they survived Monteverdi would be up there as one of the top four or five opera composers in history considering that he's already one of the greats of the genre on the basis of just three operas.


Monteverdi cetainly took a big step in developing the drama with music (that were not just recitatives). The problem today is that we have only _L'Orfeo_, which can be said with resonablness that it was largely his work (based on the verisons that have survived through time, though the concluding aria was likely not his). Scholars (and my ears) are not convinced that the other two: _Il ritorno d'Ulisse in patria_ and _L'incoronazione di Poppea_ are even close to 100% Monteverdi, or at least the versions that have survived down to us today. There are big quality lapses in these two, missing/long recitatives stretches etc. Nonetheless, _L'Orfeo_ is wonderful. I recall the opening instrumental movement struck me as dramatic an "overture" as anything written centuries later when I first listened to it.

The word "opera" was not used in his days but he was certainly the first, or one of the very first, the see its potential.


----------



## Almaviva

joen_cph said:


> Agree, it is a work of rare beauty, worth seing and having, also in several versions.
> 
> - I´m afraid you´d have to leave the table still somewhat hungry, since instrumental and vocal concertante music have been my favourite areas of exploring so far. There is no doubt that you know much, much more about the opera repertoire than I do - and to an impressive degree indeed. The reasons for my somewhat grudging remarks are the obvious limitations and conservatisms in the initial list that hadn´t been pointed at so much by other posters yet.
> 
> As regards the field of contemporary opera, the by far most knowledgeable among Danish music critics, Hansgeorg Lenz (born 1926) has pointed to Stockhausen´s "Licht" cycle as a possible sequel of our age to the Wagner "Ring". Perhaps it should be mentioned here that Lenz emphasizes that beauty exists in that work also, as opposed to the composer´s usual reputation for "ugliness" in music and for being elitist and incomprehensible into the extreme. It is one of the works I´ll explore myself in the future. The problem of course with such experimenting contemporary operas is their complexity and that they take so long to learn to know better and appreciate, I think even more than purely instrumental works. Perhaps someone here has had positive - or at least not too-negative - experiences with "Licht", or parts thereof ? Another opera Lenz mentions as a masterpiece (being slightly inclined to DG issue policy as he is, though luckily not limited to that, on the contrary) is Messiaen´s "St. Francois D´Assise", where I have seen the strangely fascinating scene with the sermon to birds pictured on television screens and heard some other excerpts, but its overall religious scheme makes the work less appealing to me. That said, I must admit that I often go for the music - initially at least - as regards appreciation of operas.
> 
> In Denmark, Nørgård´s "La Nuit des Hommes", in a video production by Jakob F. Shokking (yes, that is his name !) was an unusually moving experience as regards music theatre to me. It is a violent but melodically rather approachable work. Whereas Nørgård´s "Siddharta" and "Det Guddommelige Tivoli / The Divine Tivoli", though ambitious on the literary level, have been less musically interesting to me so far - though this might change.
> 
> We have other opera composers in Denmark - Bent Sørensen, John Frandsen, Ib Nørholm to mention some, and Poul Ruder´s, whose "The Handmaid´s Tale" you likewise mention got very positive criticism, both at home and internationally, as a masterpiece. The much earlier Langgaard opera "Antichrist", though containing some impressive music, seems to be too much of a mish-mash of very old-fashioned religious figurations and symbols bordering to the psychotic to be taken totally serious nowadays. Opinions are very divided here whether Nielsen´s operas ("Saul & David", "Maskerade") can be considered important or of much value in a more contemporary sense.
> 
> PS: Concerning popularity - it is of course a very relative thing. Whereas "Boris Godunov" may not be that very popular in the West, there is no doubt that is would be considered in the top 5 among a Russian public, being so much a part of Russian musical identity as Pushkin is in their poetry ... Popularity results will differ depending on how and where they are measured. Taste is different in Northern, Mid- and South Europe, the US or the UK. In popularity lists these circumstances of where and how the polls are made are important, of course.


Excellent points, thanks again, and thanks for the compliment although I'm afraid you're overestimating me. These works that I mentioned are not works that I know, they are works that I intend to get to know as much as possible (it is not easy to get access to contemporary opera since many of them just don't make it to major recording and video corporations), so, I consider myself a beginner rather than an expert. I've been trying hard but I'm still far from achieving full proficiency in the world of opera, as evidenced by the big gaps in my knowledge of late 20th century operas.

Yes, Antichrist seems to get mostly negative reviews from forum members here.

Thanks for the recommendations, I'll keep an eye open for any opportunity to see the ones you've mentioned.

Yes, popularity certainly varies with the region of the world, that's why I mentioned that my list of top 20 most popular operas concerned the United States only.

I like Boris Godunov, even though I'm not crazy about it (I like Kovanshchina better). But I like it enough to the point that I'm attending in person the Met performance of Boris Godunov this Saturday at 12 noon, Mussorgsky's orchestration, with René Pape. Unfortunately Gergiev has left already and it's another maestro conducting.


----------



## jhar26

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Monteverdi cetainly took a big step in developing the drama with music (that were not just recitatives). The problem today is that we have only _L'Orfeo_, which can be said with resonablness that it was largely his work (based on the verisons that have survived through time, though the concluding aria was likely not his). Scholars (and my ears) are not convinced that the other two: _Il ritorno d'Ulisse in patria_ and _L'incoronazione di Poppea_ are even close to 100% Monteverdi, or at least the versions that have survived down to us today. There are big quality lapses in these two, missing/long recitatives stretches etc. Nonetheless, _L'Orfeo_ is wonderful. I recall the opening instrumental movement struck me as dramatic an "overture" as anything written centuries later when I first listened to it.
> 
> The word "opera" was not used in his days but he was certainly the first, or one of the very first, the see its potential.


Interesting, although I think that it's the concluding aria of L'Incoronazione that possibly isn't Monteverdi's. But scholars don't always agree about how much and what Monteverdi did and didn't write himself. My guess (and it's nothing more than that) would be that he did at the very least compose most of the d'Ulisse and l'Incoronazione operas himself considering their overal quality.


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT

Almaviva said:


> There is also _Combattimento di Tancredi e Clorinda_, released by Opus Arte - it's only one scene, it's more madrigal than opera, only 23 minutes long, but *extremely* beautiful.


The CD of _Combattimento_ by Le Concert d'Astrée/Emanuelle Haïm, with a remarkable performance by Rolando Villazón, is well worth checking out. Certainly on my short-list of "desert island discs".


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## Argus

Almaviva said:


> So what American operas do you rank as more *important* than Porgy and Bess? Have you noticed that this list in my OP ranks operas by *importance*? How else would you interpret this statement of the list makers - "for their innovation and influence, as well as their aesthetic importance, historical significance and lasting popularity"? Only one of their criteria is about popularity, everything else is about importance.
> 
> Did I say Porgy and Bess is the *best* American opera? I wouldn't be able to say it, since I haven't seen it. My statement was just in function of the list. Isn't it interesting that in this list and the other one I quoted (by Denis Forman, with his letter rankings) Porgy and Bess is the highest ranked American opera?
> 
> Adriana Lecouvreur A
> Aida A+
> Andrea Chenier B
> Suor Angelica C
> Ariadne on Naxos C
> Attila B
> Un ballo in maschera A
> The barber of Seville A
> Bluebeard's Castle A
> Simon Boccanegra A
> La Boheme A
> Boris Godunov A
> Madama Butterfly A
> Don Carlos A+
> Carmen A+
> Cavalleria Rusticana A
> La Cenerentola A
> La Clemenza di Tito B
> Cosi fan tute A+
> Dido and Aeneas A
> Don Giovanni A+
> Don Pasquale A
> The Threepenny Opera B
> The flying Dutchman A
> Elektra A
> L'elisir d'amore A+
> The escape from the Seraglio B
> Ernani - Verdi B
> Eugene Onegin A
> Falstaff B
> La fanciulla del West B
> Faust - Gounod B
> Fidelio A
> The marriage of Figaro A+
> Die Fledermaus B
> La forza del destino B
> Freischutz - weber A
> Gianni Schicchi A+
> La Gioconda B
> Giulio Cesare B
> Hansel and Gretel A
> Idomeneo - Mozart A
> Iphigenia in Tauris B
> L'italiana in Algeri A
> Khovanshchina B
> Lakme - Delibes C
> Manon Lescaut B-
> I Lombardi B
> Lucia di Lammermoor A
> Luisa Miller - Verdi A
> Macbeth - Verdi A
> The magic flute A
> Maria Stuarda A-
> Meistersinger A+
> Norma A
> Orpheus and Eurydice A
> Otello A
> I Pagliacci A
> Parsifal A
> The pearl fishers A
> Pelleas et melisande A
> *Porgy and Bess A*
> I puritani A
> Rigoletto A
> Rhinegold A++
> Valkyrie A++
> Siegfried A++
> Gotterdammerung A++
> La rondine C
> Rosenkavalier A
> Salome A
> The Sicilian vespers B
> La sonnambula A-
> Il tabarro A-
> Tannhauser B
> William tell B
> Tosca A+
> La traviata A+
> Tristan und Isolde A
> Il trovatore A
> Turandot A-
> Werther B
> Wozzeck A
> 
> So, regardless of how you feel about this being silly, it looks like there are other silly people to keep me company.
> 
> Hey, I just found another list. Again, the *only* American opera quoted is Porgy and Bess - that's three lists already. So, you should better come up with justifications on why Porgy and Bess is *not* the most important American opera, because there's a bunch of people who believe it is.
> 
> Claudio Monteverdi : (1567 - 1643 ). L'Orfeo. (Orpheus and Euridice). L'Incoronazione di Poppea. (The Coronation of Poppea , based on the life of the emperor Nero.) Henry Purcell (1659 -1695 ) Dido and Anaeas.
> George Frideric Handel (1685 - 1759 ) Giulio Cesare (Julius Caesar). Alcina (pronounced al-chee-na).
> Christoph Willibald Gluck (1714 - 1787 ). Orfeo & Euridice. Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart ( 1756 - 1791 ) Le Nozze di Figaro (The Marriage of Figaro), Don Giovanni, Cosi Fan Tutte (So do they all ), Die Zauberflote (The Magic Flute), Die Entfuhrung Aus dem Serail (The Abduction From The Seraglio ), Idomeneo.
> Ludwig van Beethoven (1770 - 1827 ). Fidelio. Carl Maria von Weber (1786 - 1826 ) Der Freischutz.
> Gioacchino Rossini (1792 - 1868 ) Il Barbiere di Sviglia (The Barber of Seville), La Cenerentola (Cinderella), L'Italiana in Algeri (The Italian Woman in Algiers ). Vincenzo Bellini (1801 - 1835 ) . Norma . I Puritani. La Sonnambula (The Sleepwalker ). Donizetti, Gaetano (1797 - 1848 ). Lucia di Lammermoor. Don Pasquale, L'Elisir d'Amore (The Elixir of Love ).
> Giuseppe Verdi (1813 - 1901 ). Rigoletto. La Traviata . Il Trovatore. Un Ballo in Maschera. (A Masked Ball ), La Forza del Destino (The Power of Destiny ), Don Carlo, Macbeth, Otello , Falstaff. Arrigo Boito (1842 - 1918 ) Mefistofele. Amilcare Ponchiellei (1834 - 1887 ). La Gioconda. Pietro Mascagni (1863 - 1945 ) Cavalleria Rusticana (Rustic Chivalry ) Ruggero Leoncavallo (1857 - 1918 ) Pagliacci. Giacomo Puccini (1858 - 1924 ), La Boheme, Tosca, Madama Butterfly, Manon Lescaut, Turandot.
> Georges Bizet (1838 - 1875 ) Carmen. Jules Massenet ( 1842 - 1912 ), Manon, Werther, Thais. Camille Saint -Saens (1835 - 1921 ) Samson & Dalilah. Leo Delibes . Lakme. Charles Gounod (1818 - 1893 ) Faust. Romeo & Juliette. Claude Debussy ( 1862 - 1918 ) Pelleas & Melisande.
> Peter Ilyich Tchaikovsky. (1840 - 1893 ) Eugene Onegin. Queen of Spades. Modest Mussorgsky (1839 - 1881 ). Boris Godunov. Khovanshchina. Bedrich Smetana (1824 - 1884) The Bartred Bride. Antonin Dvorak (1841 - 1904 ) Rusalka. Leos Janacek (1854 - 1928 ) Jenufa. Katya Kabanova. The Cunning Little Vixen. From the House of the Dead.
> Richard Wagner (1813 - 1883 ). Der Fliegende Hollander (The Flying Dutchman. ) Tannhauser. Lohengrin. The Ring : Das Rheingold. Die Walkure, Siegfried. Gotterdammerung (Twilight of the Gods). Tristan & Isolde. Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg (The Mastersingers of Nuremberg). Parsifal. Engelbert Humperdinck (1854 - 1921 ), Hansel & Gretel. Richard Strauss (1864 - 1949 . Salome Elelktra. Der Rosenkavalier. Ariadne auf Naxos. Die Frau Ohne Schatten (The Woman Without a Shadow ), Arabella, Capriccio.
> Alban Berg (1885 - 1935) Wozzeck. Lulu. Arnold Schoenberg (1874 - 1951 ). Moses & Aron. *George Gershwin (1898 - 1937 ) Porgy and Bess*. Benjamin Britten (1913 - 1976 ) Peter Grimes. Billy Budd.
> Sergei Prokofiev (1891 - 1953 ) The Love For Three Oranges. War And Peace. Dimitri Shostakovich (1906 - 1975 ), Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk District.
> 
> ----
> 
> OK, this is from Wikipedia and some would object to using Wikipedia to back an argument up, but you know, they got references, I just don't want to waste time exploring them, and again, someone wrote this article, therefore this someone agrees with me as well:
> 
> His most ambitious composition was _Porgy and Bess_ (1935). Gershwin called it a "folk opera," *and it is now widely regarded as the most important American opera of the twentieth century*. Based on the novel _Porgy_ by DuBose Heyward, the action takes place in the fictional all-black neighborhood of Catfish Row in Charleston, South Carolina. With the exception of several minor speaking roles, all of the characters are black. The music combines elements of popular music of the day, with a strong influence of Black music, with techniques typical of opera, such as recitative, through-composition and an extensive system of leitmotifs. _Porgy and Bess_ contains some of Gershwin's most sophisticated music, including a fugue, a passacaglia, the use of atonality, polytonality and polyrhythm, and a tone row. Even the "set numbers" (of which "Summertime", "I Got Plenty o' Nuttin'" and "It Ain't Necessarily So" are well known examples) are some of the most refined and ingenious of Gershwin's output.
> 
> -------------------
> 
> So, the ball is on your camp. What other American opera is more *important* than Porgy and Bess? Amahl and the Night Visitors? Susannah? Candide? Trouble in Tahiti? Sweeney Todd? Little Women? The Ballad of Baby Doe? A Little Night Music? Dead Man Walking? A Quiet Place? West Side Story (if you consider it an opera)? I don't think so. These are fine operas, but not more *important* than Porgy and Bess. And look, you may come up with some nice recent works, but remember that they're still to withstand the test of time, which Porgy and Bess has done already.
> 
> I think you'll have some trouble proving your case (please back it up with references, lists, etc) unless you consider The Rake's Progress to be an American opera, since Stravinsky was a naturalized US citizen when he composed it. That's your best bet, but I think everybody thinks of Stravinsky as Russian, and The Rake's Progress didn't even have its world première in America.


I just felt like quoting this amazingly long post.:wave:

No, really I wanted to put forth some omissions from the list.

Partch's Delusion of the Fury and Revelation in The Courthouse Park After The Bacchae of Euripides, if they are considered opera.

Ashley's Perfect Lives or at least one of his many other operas should get inclusion.

Monk's Atlas or maybe Vessel or Quarry.

Feldman's Neither is my kind of opera. From Wiki:



Wikipedia said:


> Neither is the only opera by Morton Feldman, dating from 1977. The libretto consists of a 56-line poem by Samuel Beckett. Beckett and Feldman had met in Berlin in 1976, with plans for a collaboration for Rome Opera. Beckett told Feldman that he himself did not like opera, and Feldman had agreed with Beckett's sentiment.[1]
> 
> The work is for a soprano soloist and chamber orchestra. It could more properly be called a monodrama, but given Feldman's own disdain for opera, it can be described as an anti-opera.


I'm not sure how it qualifies as an opera if it's only got one singer, but I'll take Wikipedia's word for it.


----------



## Guest

Almaviva said:


> Whoever says _Akhenaten, Dr. Atomic, _etc, is expressing an *opinion* that these are notable operas, but the *consensual fact* (that's why I asked the user to back up whatever alternative he proposed with quotes and references - *and the fact that we're still waiting should tell you something*) is that _Porgy _remains the most *important* American opera to date, and certainly at the very least, expressing this consensus is not a matter for ridicule.


Yes, maybe. But exactly what _is_ it we're being told?

One, I left this thread because I was tired of your snarkiness.
Two, I have other things to do besides running down quotes and references to make you happy or even to improve my reputation in your eyes.
Three, I don't buy into the whole ranking ideology that generates lists like this.
Four, I shouldn't have said anything on this thread. I should have just quietly rejected it.

Besides, no one yet has defined what "important" means. It's a pretty vague term, and so far on this thread, it's simply been repeated over and over again, never defined.

*BUT,* since Natalie seems nice and seems genuinely curious, here's a list of *some* operas written by Americans. Whether they're important or not, I leave to people who get exercised by such things. Some of them broke new ground. Some of them inspired other composers. They are certainly fun to listen to. (I haven't _seen_ any of them.) And you can find mention of them in scholarly books about new music.

[I had to search for these, even though they're _almost_ all in my own collection. (Some I only know by reputation.) I had to search because I don't keep track of things according to country.]

Virgil Thomson, _Four Saints in Three Acts_
Robert Ward, _The Crucible_
Roger Sessions, _Montezuma_
John Cage, _Europeras 1, 2, 3,_ and _4_
Morton Feldman, _Neither_ (the one I mentioned, tangentially, in my previous post)
Robert Ashley, _Dust, Perfect Lives,_ and _Concrete_
Alice Shields, _Shaman_ and _Apocalypse_
Crawling With Tarts, _Grand Surface Noise Opera no. 3 (India Ocean Ship)_*

Having said all that, I think perhaps that with few exceptions, Americans have turned to other things besides opera. Think of how difficult it was for the supreme opera composer of the nineteenth century to get his operas produced and how few he wrote. Only three if you don't count _Damnation of Faust._ (He didn't count it as an opera.) I think it may be more difficult to get a new opera produced in the U.S. today than in the Paris of Berlioz' time. One of those "other things," however, is the happening, large multimedia theatrical events in which a multitude of things happen simultaneously.

If you count those, then you have to add things like _Roaratorio_ and _HPSCHD_ to the list!

*Not a staged or even stageable piece, so probably shouldn't even be considered. But it's so cool, I couldn't resist. It's _called_ an opera; that's why I cheated.


----------



## Almaviva

some guy said:


> Yes, maybe. But exactly what _is_ it we're being told?
> 
> One, I left this thread because I was tired of your snarkiness.
> Two, I have other things to do besides running down quotes and references to make you happy or even to improve my reputation in your eyes.
> Three, I don't buy into the whole ranking ideology that generates lists like this.
> Four, I shouldn't have said anything on this thread. I should have just quietly rejected it.
> 
> Besides, no one yet has defined what "important" means. It's a pretty vague term, and so far on this thread, it's simply been repeated over and over again, never defined.
> 
> *BUT,* since Natalie seems nice and seems genuinely curious, here's a list of *some* operas written by Americans. Whether they're important or not, I leave to people who get exercised by such things. Some of them broke new ground. Some of them inspired other composers. They are certainly fun to listen to. (I haven't _seen_ any of them.) And you can find mention of them in scholarly books about new music.
> 
> [I had to search for these, even though they're _almost_ all in my own collection. (Some I only know by reputation.) I had to search because I don't keep track of things according to country.]
> 
> Virgil Thomson, _Four Saints in Three Acts_
> Robert Ward, _The Crucible_
> Roger Sessions, _Montezuma_
> John Cage, _Europeras 1, 2, 3,_ and _4_
> Morton Feldman, _Neither_ (the one I mentioned, tangentially, in my previous post)
> Robert Ashley, _Dust, Perfect Lives,_ and _Concrete_
> Alice Shields, _Shaman_ and _Apocalypse_
> Crawling With Tarts, _Grand Surface Noise Opera no. 3 (India Ocean Ship)_*
> 
> Having said all that, I think perhaps that with few exceptions, Americans have turned to other things besides opera. Think of how difficult it was for the supreme opera composer of the nineteenth century to get his operas produced and how few he wrote. Only three if you don't count _Damnation of Faust._ (He didn't count it as an opera.) I think it may be more difficult to get a new opera produced in the U.S. today than in the Paris of Berlioz' time. One of those "other things," however, is the happening, large multimedia theatrical events in which a multitude of things happen simultaneously.
> 
> If you count those, then you have to add things like _Roaratorio_ and _HPSCHD_ to the list!
> 
> *Not a staged or even stageable piece, so probably shouldn't even be considered. But it's so cool, I couldn't resist. It's _called_ an opera; that's why I cheated.


I'll tell you what, can we make piece? It's silly to be fighting. Supposedly we're grown people. We have at least two things in common - we love opera, and we consider Berlioz a supreme composer.

Look, I posted these lists just to start a conversation. Lists do this, people agree with some parts of these lists, don't with others, nice reviews and interesting recommendations come from these kinds of threads - and it happened here. I wasn't approaching these lists as something absolute.

I posted a self-deprecating comment - confessing shame about not knowing what is considered - rightly or wrongly, but sorry, it is considered - to be the most important opera of my own country. I was basically making fun of myself for this gap in my knowledge. You jumped on what I said with some sarcasm and some assumptions, I reacted strongly (operational word here: reacted). I think you were wrong for jumping on me like you did, and I was wrong for reacting too strongly.

Here is what I should have said when you first posted your series of icons, and wrote that post with those assumptions:

"I hear you, and I'm sorry that you feel this way. It wasn't my intention to put down any other works by saying that I consider that it is a shame that I don't know Porgy & Bess, which many, rightly or wrongly, consider to be an important opera from my own country. But I'm always willing to learn, so, I'd appreciate some suggestions. What else do you think I should get acquainted with, from American opera composers? Maybe I'll change my mind about the relative order of importance of these works once I learn from you what else is out there that I don't know."

So, I apologize for not having replied like this, and for being harsh.

I do feel like I defined what I was talking about when I said the word "important," (innovation, esthetical value, etc, plus some of the specifics from Porgy & Bess that scholars consider to be instrumental to its importance - scroll up and you'll see) but that's a minor point, I'm OK with the fact that you feel otherwise.

You seem to be a good resource for us, opera lovers in this forum, to learn more about contemporary American works, and I wouldn't want this bad start to hinder your participations here in this thread or future threads, or your interactions with me; I'd welcome your contributions as long as we can keep the discussion civil. By the way, thanks for the recommendations above, I'll look into those operas if I have the opportunity to do it.

So, peace?


----------



## Guest

Almaviva said:


> Thanks for your nice recommendations, and have a nice life.


Thanks, I will (I'm doing it! I'm doing it now!!). And I'm sure I wish the same for you.

AND how in the name of all that's holy did I manage to leave off Harry Partch's two outrageous theater extravaganzas (and miss Argus's mention of them in the post immediately preceding mine)??????*

_Delusion of the Fury_ is one of the finest pieces of music by anyone anywhere, amen.

Yes, Natalie. _Delusion of the Fury_ and _Revelation in the Courthouse Park,_ too, why not?

*I'm going to stand in the corner now for awhile and think about what I did....


----------



## Almaviva

some guy said:


> *I'm going to stand in the corner now for awhile and think about what I did....


Well, I have just edited the post above in a much more constructive way. It's a shame if you don't read it. Please read the new and much improved version.:tiphat:


----------



## Toccata

Given all the criticism made earlier in this thread of digitaldream door's (DDD) list of 100 greatest operas, I would like to see whether the opera fans on Talk Classical could come up with their preferred agreed-upon list of 100, based on whatever criteria of "greatness" you consider appropriate.

It should be truly fascinating to watch the decisions and results emerge.
Be warned, once you have agreed upon a list, I may pop back over to DDD and raise a discussion about it.


----------



## Almaviva

Toccata said:


> Given all the criticism made earlier in this thread of digitaldream door's (DDD) list of 100 greatest operas, I would like to see whether the opera fans on Talk Classical could come up with their preferred agreed-upon list of 100, based on whatever criteria of "greatness" you consider appropriate.
> 
> It should be truly fascinating to watch the decisions and results emerge.
> Be warned, once you have agreed upon a list, I may pop back over to DDD and raise a discussion about it.


good idea although a hard one to implement


----------



## jhar26

Toccata said:


> Given all the criticism made earlier in this thread of digitaldream door's (DDD) list of 100 greatest operas, I would like to see whether the opera fans on Talk Classical could come up with their preferred agreed-upon list of 100, based on whatever criteria of "greatness" you consider appropriate.


There is no such thing. I've never seen a list of the greatest symphonies, operas, composers, singers, musicians, rock or jazz albums, actors, movies or whatever that the members of a forum agreed with - NEVER. Even on sports forums they don't agree about the correct ranking order of the greatest boxers, tennis players, baseball players and so on - and they can use a lot more objective criteria than is the case for music (or the arts in general).

But I have nothing against any such lists. They are useful for starting a discussion and they can be a big help for those just starting to explore a genre, because even though everyone can (and usully does) disagree with the ranking order and has his or her own opinions about what should have been included but isn't - most of what is on such lists is usually nevertheless very good.


----------



## Toccata

jhar26 said:


> There is no such thing. I've never seen a list of the greatest symphonies, operas, composers, singers, musicians, rock or jazz albums, actors, movies or whatever that the members of a forum agreed with - NEVER. Even on sports forums they don't agree about the correct ranking order of the greatest boxers, tennis players, baseball players and so on - and they can use a lot more objective criteria than is the case for music (or the arts in general).
> 
> But I have nothing against any such lists. They are useful for starting a discussion and they can be a big help for those just starting to explore a genre, because even though everyone can (and usully does) disagree with the ranking order and has his or her own opinions about what should have been included but isn't - most of what is on such lists is usually nevertheless very good.


The DDD Forum managed to produce a list of the "100 Greatest Operas", based on discussion among the members of that Forum at the time, guided by one their Moderators. Clearly not everybody agreed with the exact contents and rankings, but it was an agreed list nevertheless. If you are saying that Talk Classical members couldn't hope to achieve something similar, based on the present line-up of opera fans, I'm a little surprised to hear this.


----------



## jhar26

Toccata said:


> The DDD Forum managed to produce a list of the "100 Greatest Operas", based on discussion among the members of that Forum at the time, guided by one their Moderators. Clearly not everybody agreed with the exact contents and rankings, but it was an agreed list nevertheless. If you are saying that Talk Classical members couldn't hope to achieve something similar, based on the present line-up of opera fans, I'm a little surprised to hear this.


Like I said - I have no problem with the idea of any such list. I just don't think that everyone would agree with the end result.

Exactly what formula would you suggest? Everyone posts their opera top 40 (or whatever) in their order of preference from which we compile a top 100? If so, I'm willing to give it a go.


----------



## Toccata

jhar26 said:


> Like I said - I have no problem with the idea of any such list. I just don't think that everyone would agree with the end result.
> 
> Exactly what formula would you suggest? Everyone posts their opera top 40 (or whatever) in their order of preference from which we compile a top 100? If so, I'm willing to give it a go.


I agree that there is bound to be disagreement on ranks, but with a bit of luck and goodwill from all concerned it might be possible to obtain a broad consensus on what should be included in the list, at least in the first, say, 20 operas.

As for a formula, the DDD procedure typically involved the Moderator proposing an initial list of candidates for the first N positions, and inviting comments on additions, deletions and relative positions. The Moderator made all final decisions, after allowing a reasonable time for discussion. Once the first N positions were resolved the discussion moved on to the next N positions. Typically N was 10.

The idea was that each contributor should not necessarily put forward their personal favourites but instead try to wear his/her "objective" hat, as if, for example, they were suggesting a list which might be placed in a time capsule and opened in say 50 years time as representing what a typical bunch of opera lovers in the year 2010 considered were the best 100 operas produced by that date.

From previous experience, I should warn that the whole process could take months. I'm no expert on opera so don't expect anything much from me. I recall in the case of DDD's consideration of Greatest Composers during 2007 that the discussion got very heated at times. All the same, it was very educational given all the material and argumentation that was thrown up along the way to support particular composers. I learned a great deal about various composers that way.

Given that you are a Moderator, and one who is clearly very knowledgeable about opera in general, I can't think of a better candidate than you to kick off the proceedings with a proposed list of the top 10 operas.


----------



## Almaviva

Toccata said:


> Given that you are a Moderator, and one who is clearly very knowledgeable about opera in general, I can't think of a better candidate than you to kick off the proceedings with a proposed list of the top 10 operas.


Wow, I really like the idea. So, let's do it, Gaston?

Here's a start.

1. Porgy & Bess. LOL, no, just kidding, hehehe.

OK, now, for real:

1. The Ring of the Nibelung
2. Les Troyens
3. Tristan und Isolde
4. The Marriage of Figaro
5. Otello
6. La Boheme
7. Don Giovanni
8. Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg
9. Norma
10. La Traviata


----------



## jhar26

Almaviva said:


> Wow, I really like the idea. So, let's do it, Gaston?


Ok. But shouldn't this have a thread of it's own?


----------



## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> Ok. But shouldn't this have a thread of it's own?


Well, this thread *is* about the 100 greatest operas, and the fact that the controversy about the DDD list is what has resulted in our new idea or new mission of generating our own, does work as a sequence of associations or the reason why we're now trying to do this.

But most likely people would contribute more easily to a new one saying something like "The TalkClassical 100 Greatest Operas Project" without the need for going through two pages of introduction (not to forget, with some unpleasant stuff thrown in). On the other hand, the presence of the previous discussion with at least some resolution (although apparently some_guy hasn't read my peace offer) will likely avoid it to happen again in the new thread with people bashing us for attempting to rank operas.

Another problem is, the three lists I've posted - which can function as reminders for people to think of these operas while making up their minds about each block of ten - and the many suggestions already made here would be lost if we started a new thread.

So, I don't know. I see pros and cons. Your call, you're the moderator.:tiphat:


----------



## Almaviva

jhar26 said:


> Ok. But shouldn't this have a thread of it's own?


OK, I got it.
See what you think of this.
What if we do start a new thread (you do) but in the introduction to it you make reference to this one, with a link, and say - "the other thread explains why we're doing this, and addresses some of the objections people might have to the concept of making a list, so, instead of making of this one a continuation of that controversy, people who object to this might post in that one, while this one would be a good place to post real contributions to such a list by whoever thinks that this is a good idea."


----------



## jhar26

Almaviva said:


> OK, I got it.
> See what you think of this.
> What if we do start a new thread (you do) but in the introduction to it you make reference to this one, with a link, and say - "the other thread explains why we're doing this, and addresses some of the objections people might have to the concept of making a list, so, instead of making of this one a continuation of that controversy, people who object to this might post in that one, while this one would be a good place to post real contributions to such a list by whoever thinks that this is a good idea."


Ok, I'll get to work.


----------



## Guest

Almaviva said:


> Well, I have just edited the post above in a much more constructive way. It's a shame if you don't read it. Please read the new and much improved version.:tiphat:


Thanks for the PM. I would have missed this otherwise. I think you have put things very fairly and accurately, including the things about what I did wrong!*

So, yeah. We're good!

*For which I apologize.

[I want to add that I agree with jhar's observations about "greatest" lists, though I'm going to go contribute to that thread, anyway, to my shame! (Because, unlike jhar, I do have a problem with the _idea_ of such a list.]


----------



## Almaviva

some guy said:


> Thanks for the PM. I would have missed this otherwise. I think you have put things very fairly and accurately, including the things about what I did wrong!*
> 
> So, yeah. We're good!
> 
> *For which I apologize.
> 
> [I want to add that I agree with jhar's observations about "greatest" lists, though I'm going to go contribute to that thread, anyway, to my shame! (Because, unlike jhar, I do have a problem with the _idea_ of such a list.]


OK, cool!:tiphat:


----------



## Almaviva

Toccata said:


> As for a formula, the DDD procedure typically involved the Moderator proposing an initial list of candidates for the first N positions, and inviting comments on additions, deletions and relative positions. The Moderator made all final decisions, after allowing a reasonable time for discussion. Once the first N positions were resolved the discussion moved on to the next N positions. Typically N was 10.


I was hoping to be able to read the discussion that resulted in the DDD top 100 operas list, and I registered with them for it. I couldn't find it. I don't know if it exists in some archives or was just deleted. Any hints?


----------



## myaskovsky2002

*I know...*

Just one opera...*Le grand macabre *by Ligeti...somebody knows any other opera?

Martin, curious.


----------



## Almaviva

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Just one opera...*Le grand macabre *by Ligeti...somebody knows any other opera?
> 
> Martin, curious.


Le Grand Macabre is on my unwatched pile. I'll get to it one of these days.


----------



## myaskovsky2002

*Operas made in USA*

a typical American list...

R-K just known by his last opera, le coq d'or. He composed 14 other operas...But I think you cannot name them...

Ok.

My 100 operas:

Lulu
Wozzeck
Tristan and Isolde
The flying Dutchman 
Tanhäuser
Lohengrin
the 4 Nibelungen
Elektra
Arabella
Die frau ohne Schatten
all Zemlinsky
all Schreker

and 70 Russian operas.

Martin, making things simple...


----------



## Almaviva

myaskovsky2002 said:


> a typical American list...
> 
> R-K just known by his last opera, le coq d'or. He composed 14 other operas...But I think you cannot name them...
> 
> Ok.
> 
> My 100 operas:
> 
> Lulu
> Wozzeck
> Tristan and Isolde
> The flying Dutchman
> Tanhäuser
> Lohengrin
> the 4 Nibelungen
> Elektra
> Arabella
> Die frau ohne Schatten
> all Zemlinsky
> all Schreker
> 
> and 70 Russian operas.
> 
> Martin, making things simple...


Why are you saying it's a typical *American* list? These things get voted for in Internet message boards. The "Inter" stands for International. Like here, there are people from all over the world voting for these things. There isn't even a predominance of American users here.

Maybe you should consider instead that the list got the way it is because not everybody in the world shares your interest for Russian opera and their diffusion outside of Russia is not enormous, which are much more likely to be the correct explanations for the small presence of Russian opera than any sort of American bias you seem to be inferring out of nowhere.

Martin, diversity is a good thing. Maybe you should start exploring operas from countries other than Russia. It's a bit tiresome to be focused over and over on only one national style of opera. Perhaps you'll find out that there are indeed many fine operas that may please you that didn't come from Russia.

Your approach is indeed simple, like you say.

We get the impression that it is divided in two categories:
Russian opera - Good.
Non-Russian opera with some notable exceptions listed above - Not good.

Simplicity is not always the best way to go, especially regarding such a complex, vast, and diverse universe like that of opera.


----------



## mamascarlatti

Almaviva said:


> Why are you saying it's a typical *American* list? These things get voted for in Internet message boards. The "Inter" stands for International. Like here, there are people from all over the world voting for these things. *There isn't even a predominance of American users here*.


I certainly rather resent being called American, seeing as I am of British parents, born and brought up in Switzerland, lived in France and Italy, and currently residing in New Zealand. And our other contributors are equally diverse, you just have to look at the languages thread to see how many people are not writing in their mother tongue.

And like Alma I enjoy a wide range of opera, from the 17th to the 21st century and from a variety of countries.

As for naming R-K's operas, in the days of Wiki and Google I'm sure we could get to the answer, if we felt it worth pursuing. I personally prefer to take it slowly, and explore the repertoire organically, at my own pace.


----------



## Herkku

myaskovsky2002 said:


> R-K just known by his last opera, le coq d'or. He composed 14 other operas...But I think you cannot name them...


I can think of ten operas by Rimsky-Korsakov that I have heard complete or parts of...


----------



## petercheck

Pelleas and Mellisande – Claude Debussy
Porgy & Bess – George Gershwin
Lucia Di Lammermoor – Gaetano Donizetti
Les Troyens – Hector Berlioz
Elektra – Richard Strauss


----------



## rgz

Betraying my neophyte status once again 

Watched:
Don Giovanni
The Marriage of Figaro 
La Boheme
La Traviata 
Carmen 
The Magic Flute
Tosca 
Pelleas and Mellisande
Ariadne auf Naxos
Don Pasquale
La Fille du Regiment
and bits and pieces up to ~50% of several more

Bit surprised Tales of Hoffman wasn't listed. I thought it was considered opera as opposed to operetta. Or perhaps it's not ranked in the top 100?


----------



## Almaviva

rgz said:


> Betraying my neophyte status once again
> 
> Watched:
> Don Giovanni
> The Marriage of Figaro
> La Boheme
> La Traviata
> Carmen
> The Magic Flute
> Tosca
> Pelleas and Mellisande
> Ariadne auf Naxos
> Don Pasquale
> La Fille du Regiment
> and bits and pieces up to ~50% of several more
> 
> Bit surprised Tales of Hoffman wasn't listed. I thought it was considered opera as opposed to operetta. Or perhaps it's not ranked in the top 100?


Tales of Hoffmann is listed at number 48, and it is definitely an opera.


----------



## rgz

Bizarre, Ctrl-F'd the page, I must have had a typo.


----------



## myaskovsky2002

*a pity...you started saying things like this...*



> Martin, diversity is a good thing. Maybe you should start exploring operas from countries other than Russia. It's a bit tiresome to be focused over and over on only one national style of opera. Perhaps you'll find out that there are indeed many fine operas that may please you that didn't come from Russia.


This is not true, I don't know why you say that....

I love MANY kinds of operas and I think you can see that: Wagner, Richard Strauss, Schönberg, Zemlinsky, Schreker, Schmidt, Bartok, Kodaly, Puccini, Dallapiccola, Nono, Monteverdi, Janacek, Ligeti....and many many others. I was speaking about many non-Russian composers (it doesn't mean I know what I am/was talking about...LOL)

If you have any doubts, take a look here:

http://www3.bell.net/svp1/

I updated it today.

You are just convinced that I just love Russians...I'm sorry, you are wrong.

Martin


----------



## Almaviva

myaskovsky2002 said:


> This is not true, I don't know why you say that....
> 
> I love MANY kinds of operas and I think you can see that: Wagner, Richard Strauss, Schönberg, Zemlinsky, Schreker, Schmidt, Bartok, Kodaly, Puccini, Dallapiccola, Nono, Monteverdi, Janacek, Ligeti....and many many others. I was speaking about many non-Russian composers (it doesn't mean I know what I am/was talking about...LOL)
> 
> If you have any doubts, take a look here:
> 
> http://www3.bell.net/svp1/
> 
> I updated it today.
> 
> You are just convinced that I just love Russians...I'm sorry, you are wrong.
> 
> Martin


Martin, you don't seem to be very clear about the timelines. That's what happens when you resurrect old threads. I said that at a time when you were very new to the forum and was *exclusively* posting about Russian opera, and going on and on about it. I had assummed that this was your only take/exposure to opera. By now, I know already that you have many other non-Russian operas and you like many of them.

But if you keep taking old stuff out of context, you'll get the wrong idea about what people think of you.


----------



## myaskovsky2002

*you pay for your ticket*



> I can think of ten operas by Rimsky-Korsakov that I have heard complete or parts of...


You can come to Montreal, be my guest for a whole two days and I will show you 
my 15 R-K operas.

LOL

Martin


----------



## myaskovsky2002

*Question about language?*



> Martin, you don't seem to be very clear about the timelines. That's what happens when you resurrect old threads. I said that at a time when you were very new to the forum and was *exclusively* posting about Russian opera, and going on and on about it. I had assummed that this was your only take/exposure to opera. By now, I know already that you have many other non-Russian operas and you like many of them.
> 
> But if you keep taking old stuff out of context, you'll get the wrong idea about what people think of you.


I suppose you have seen my awful list...I couldn't imagine how big it was until I saw it. I start entering my discs when I was 12 (by hand), in a computer 12 years ago...I still have around 500 LP...I replaced 80%, some are difficult to replace. I bought more than 150 LPs in Europe. Maybe this list is a joke and it doesn't really exist...Maybe I don't exist either...I am an illusion...But I like operas of many countries, the only exceptions are England (Britten has just one opera I like...Thomas Mann, death in Venice) and USA (just Gershwin).

I am an awful guy and I have an awful theory...People with bad food must have bad music....That's mine, mea culpa!!!!! Stupid Martin! Many people told me I was a fool for that...LOL

Martin


----------



## Almaviva

myaskovsky2002 said:


> the only exceptions are England (Britten has just one opera I like...Thomas Mann, death in Venice) and USA (just Gershwin).
> 
> I am an awful guy and I have an awful theory...People with bad food must have bad music....That's mine, mea culpa!!!!! Stupid Martin! Many people told me I was a fool for that...LOL
> Martin


Well, Martin, in your usually anti-American stance, you're showing once more that you aren't properly informed. American cuisine is excellent, varied, and exquisite. America is far from being just a place for hot-dogs and burgers. The restaurants that practice New American Cuisine are among the best in the world, with tasty and fancy preparations using light and artistic presentations of various regional cuisines. Go to a bookstore, get a cooking book in the New American Cuisine style and browse it, you'll be surprised.

Also, America has numerous interesting operas. Here is a short list, among many others:

Amahl and the Night Visitors​Amelia Goes to the Ball​Antony and Cleopatra​The Aspern Papers​The Ballad of Baby Doe​The Boor​The Canterbury Pilgrims​The Consul​The Cradle Will Rock​Cyrano​David Rizzio​The Death of Klinghoffer​Doctor Atomic​Evangeline​A Full Moon in March​Gallantry​The Ghosts of Versailles​Goya​The Greenfield Christmas Tree​A Hand Of Bridge​Harvey Milk​I Was Looking At the Ceiling And Then I Saw the Sky​Introductions and Good-Byes​Judith​The Jumping Frog of Calaveras County​The King's Henchman​Little Women​Lord Byron​The Medium​Merry Mount​Miss Havisham's Fire​Miss Havisham's Wedding Night​Nixon in China​Peter Ibbetson​The Picture of Dorian Gray​The Pipe of Desire​Porgy and Bess​Postcard from Morocco​A Quiet Place​Robin Hood​The Ruby​The Sacrifice​The Saint of Bleecker Street​Six Characters In Search of an Author​Solomon and Balkis​The Stoned Guest​The Stronger​Susannah​The Tender Land​Treemonisha​Trouble in Tahiti​Vanessa​A View From The Bridge​The Visitation​A Water Bird Talk​Will You Marry Me?


----------



## myaskovsky2002

> Well, Martin, in your usually anti-American stance, you're showing once more that you aren't properly informed. American cuisine is excellent, varied, and exquisite. America is far from being just a place for hot-dogs and burgers. The restaurants that practice New American Cuisine are among the best in the world, with tasty and fancy preparations using light and artistic presentations of various regional cuisines. Go to a bookstore, get a cooking book in the New American Cuisine style and browse it, you'll be surprised.
> 
> Also, America has numerous interesting operas. Here is a short list, among many others:


Probably I am ignorant...
But Susannah sucks hard I saw it, it is aweful
Nixon in China sucks.

Others I didn't pay attention.

Philippe Glass or the art of repeating until everyone is tired!

About the food, that is new for me. I said anyhow that this is a weird opinion of the other Martin...the mean one. I went tou USA many years ago and you could have sh...with ketchup or other sauces...It changed so much? Ketchup for evrything...
as I read Arnold Wesker' French fried with everything, a great play writer, British.

Martin, I like to read


----------



## myaskovsky2002

The consul is very very good, I like Gian-Carlo Menotti...American? (more or less).

Martin


----------



## myaskovsky2002

The Medium (Menotti) Porgy (Gershwin....I love his music)


----------



## mamascarlatti

Oh how I love the cast of characters in the Stoned Guest:

_Donna Ribalda, a high-born lady of the lowlands, mezzanine-soprano

Carmen Ghia, a woman of ailing repute, off-coloratura

Don Octave, an itinerant nobleman, bargain counter tenor

Il Commendatoreador, the stoned guest, basso blotto

Dog, a large, friendly St. Bernard dog, houndentenor_

:lol:


----------



## myaskovsky2002

*Almaviva's list*

Your list is awesome! You can click on each item! I haven't noticed that before. I'm not interested in American opera nor in American food. Poor Bernstein, I love his Candide, the only good thing he composed other than West side story. The opera you mentionned (trouble in Tahiti) is a fiasco totale...the same that the one with the gay guy (something about a place....yes..._a quiet place_...I had this opera and sold it in a used store of bric-à-brac. Awful.

It is nice being nationalist. I am not! You are, every American is. I lik eGinastera, he is Arhgentinian but there are many Argentinian I don't like.


----------



## sospiro

mamascarlatti said:


> Oh how I love the cast of characters in the Stoned Guest:
> 
> _Donna Ribalda, a high-born lady of the lowlands, mezzanine-soprano
> 
> Carmen Ghia, a woman of ailing repute, off-coloratura
> 
> Don Octave, an itinerant nobleman, bargain counter tenor
> 
> Il Commendatoreador, the stoned guest, basso blotto
> 
> Dog, a large, friendly St. Bernard dog, houndentenor_
> 
> :lol:


And the synopsis - this is an opera I want to see!!


----------



## sospiro

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Nixon in China sucks.


Wow! Have you seen it? I've heard it's quite long but it does interest me. One day it might be on DVD but for the time being I'm putting this on my wish-list.


----------



## mamascarlatti

sospiro said:


> Wow! Have you seen it? I've heard it's quite long but it does interest me. One day it might be on DVD but for the time being I'm putting this on my wish-list.


I'm getting the naxos CD from the library.

I expect the Met Live in HD version will be on DVD at some point.


----------



## jhar26

sospiro said:


> Wow! Have you seen it? I've heard it's quite long but it does interest me. One day it might be on DVD but for the time being I'm putting this on my wish-list.


I have it and I find it very boring. This is after just one try though and I wasn't really in the right mood to listen to it anyway. Maybe I'll change my mind about it in the future. Even so, I wouldn't recommend spending a small fortune on it, Annie.


----------



## rgz

myaskovsky2002 said:


> It is nice being nationalist. I am not! You are, every American is.


Logical fallacy there, your reasoning skills need a bit of work.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasty_generalization
Unless, that is, you've spoken to every American. Assuming you just mean US citizens, and assuming you can determine if they're a nationalist in 1 minute, and given that the population of the US is about 315 million, that would only take about 600 years of interviewing non-stop, without sleep.


----------



## mamascarlatti

rgz said:


> Logical fallacy there, your reasoning skills need a bit of work.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasty_generalization
> Unless, that is, you've spoken to every American. Assuming you just mean US citizens, and assuming you can determine if they're a nationalist in 1 minute, and given that the population of the US is about 315 million, that would only take about 600 years of interviewing non-stop, without sleep.


He he that would keep him nicely busy:lol:.


----------



## Almaviva

mamascarlatti said:


> He he that would keep him nicely busy:lol:.


And most importantly, off our backs.:lol:


----------



## myaskovsky2002

*It's not me*

on TV I have seen many times USA people saying "we are the most powerful country in the world"....Is it not? Am I wrong? You don't feel that way? C'mon! You are like the Roman empire..and you will follow the same destiny, Alas!

Martin...who doesn't like very much the USA.


----------



## Rigotonio

yes, "Death in Venice" could have slipped onto my list and DEFINITELY "die frau ohne schatten" !! but there on many on this list that I haven't seen or even heard....i'm hoping to check out don carlos soon


----------



## mamascarlatti

Don Carlos is definitely one of my favourite operas. Hope you enjoy it!


----------



## sospiro

Hello Rigotonio & welcome to the forum. I hope you find lots of different operas to explore in the opera forum.


----------



## PetrB

This is as ridiculous as the internet 'published' list of the top ten piano concerti, with that ten having two each by Rachmaninov and Beethoven.

It is no wonder universities are severely limiting which internet sources are allowed for even the most basic English 101 paper.


What's the appeal? An individual or individuals get to voice 'their' opinion as if it were from experts who have devoted their lives to a discipline? 'Oooh, I'm given a little importance and credibility in the etherways of ze Internets?

LOL.


----------



## ClassicalMagic

I was expecting Rienzi der Letzte der Tribunen to be on the list considering it was by all means one of Wagners best.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy

ScipioAfricanus said:


> how the heck is Porgy and Bess rated so highly?


I found it pretty satisfying, though I'm sure this is partially because I was watching it at an open air theatre in the summer with strong winds with a dramatic setting sun in the background. perhaps it also had to do with better understanding what was actually going on than most of the other operas I've gone to see.


----------



## Pugg

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I found it pretty satisfying, though I'm sure this is partially because I was watching it at an open air theatre in the summer with strong winds with a dramatic setting sun in the background. perhaps it also had to do with better understanding what was actually going on than most of the other operas I've gone to see.


You must have way to much time on your hands then.
Digging up a topic last used in 2012:lol:
(I am really kidding you BB):


----------



## Don Fatale

Oh what the hell, I'm bored. Got to say I like this list better than the recent TC readers list, although the lack of modern opera is a weakness. Items in bold I've seen live. A few oddities that have eluded me, but sooner or later I'll catch them.

*1. Der Ring des Nibelungen - Richard Wagner
2. Tristan Und Isolde - Richard Wagner
3. Don Giovanni - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
4. Otello - Giuseppe Verdi
5. The Marriage of Figaro - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
6. Aida - Giuseppe Verdi
7. La Boheme - Giacomo Puccini
8. Madame Butterfly - Giacomo Puccini
9. Der Rosenkavalier - Richard Strauss
10. Parsifal - Richard Wagner
11. Boris Godunov - Modest Mussorgsky
12. La Traviata - Giuseppe Verdi
13. Carmen - Georges Bizet
14. Die Meistersinger - Richard Wagner
15. The Magic Flute - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
16. Tosca - Giacomo Puccini
17. Falstaff - Giuseppe Verdi
18. Rigoletto - Giuseppe Verdi
19. The Barber Of Seville - Gioacchino Rossini
20. Cavalleria Rusticana - Pietro Mascagni
21. Il Trovatore - Giuseppe Verdi
22. Turandot - Giacomo Puccini
23. Faust - Charles Gounod
24. Lohengrin - Richard Wagner
25. Peter Grimes - Benjamin Britten
26. Norma - Vincenzo Bellini
27. Tannhauser - Richard Wagner
28. I Pagliacci - Rugierro Leoncavallo
29. Pelleas and Mellisande - Claude Debussy
*30. Porgy & Bess - George Gershwin
*31. Lucia Di Lammermoor - Gaetano Donizetti
*32. Les Troyens - Hector Berlioz
*33. Elektra - Richard Strauss
34. Cosi Fan Tutte - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
35. Fidelio - Ludwig Van Beethoven
36. Eugene Onegin - Peter Illitch Tchaikovsky
*37. La Gioconda - Amiliare Ponchielli
*38. Wozzeck - Alban Berg
39. Incoronazione di Poppea - Claudio Monteverdi
40. Salome - Richard Strauss
41. Dido and Aneas - Henry Purcell
42. The Cunning Little Vixen - Leos Janacek
43. Orpheus and Eurydice - Christoph Willibald Gluck
44. Don Carlos - Giuseppe Verdi
45. Orfeo - Claudio Monteverdi
46. Der Freischutz - Carl Maria von Weber
47. Samson and Delilah - Camille Saint-Saens
48. Tales of Hoffman - Jacques Offenbach
49. Hansel and Gretel - Engelbert Humperdink
50. The Flying Dutchman - Richard Wagner
51. The Rake's Progress - Igor Stravinsky
52. Manon - Jules Massenet
53. The Bartered Bride - Bedrich Smetana
54. The Huguenots - Giacomo Meyerbeer
55. La Forza Del Destino - Giuseppe Verdi
56. Manon Lescaut - Giacomo Puccini
57. Ariadne auf Naxos - Richard Strauss
58. Romeo and Juliet - Charles Gounod
59. L'Elisir D'Amore - Gaetano Donizetti
*60. Lakme - Leo Delibes
*61. Andre Chenier - Umberto Giordano
62. Werther - Jules Massenet
63. Don Pasquale - Gaetano Donizetti
64. Jenufa - Leos Janacek
65. The Girl of the Golden West - Giacomo Puccini
66. La Sonnambula - Vincenzo Bellini
67. Turn of the Screw - Benjamin Britten
68. Duke Bluebeard's Castle - Bela Bartok
69. William Tell - Gioacchino Rossini
70. The Masked Ball - Giuseppe Verdi
*71. Julius Caesar - Georg Friedrich Handel
*72. La Serva Padrona - Giovanni Pergolesi
*73. Die Tote Stadt - Erich Wolfgang Korngold
74. Louise - Gustave Charpentier
*75. Mefistofele - Arrigo Boito
76. I Puritani - Vincenzo Bellini
*77. Semiramide - Gioacchino Rossini
78. L'Africaine - Giacomo Meyerbeer
79. Castor et Pollux - Jean-Philippe Rameau
*80. La Cenerentola - Gioacchino Rossini
81. Pique Dame - Peter Illitch Tchaikovsky
82. Billy Budd - Benjamin Britten
*83. La Fille du Regiment - Gaetano Donizetti
84. Le Prophete - Giacomo Meyerbeer
85. Le Coq D'or - Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakoff
*86. McBeth - Giuseppe Verdi
87. Les Pecheurs des Perles - Georges Bizet
*88. The Pilgrim's Progress - Ralph Vaughan Williams
89. Ernani - Giuseppe Verdi
90. Gianni Schicchi - Giacomo Puccini
91. Beatrice et Benedict - Hector Berlioz
*92. Simon Boccanegra - Giuseppe Verdi
*93. Prince Igor - Alexander Borodin
*94. Nabucco - Giuseppe Verdi
95. The Abduction from the Seraglio - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
*96. Euryanthe - Carl Maria von Weber
*97. Dialogues des Carmelites - Frances Poulenc
*98. Atys - Jean-Baptiste Lully
99. Thais - Jules Massenet
100. Martha - Friederich von Flotow


----------



## hpowders

For me after four listenings, Simon Boccanegra sounds more like an 87 than a 92.


----------



## Bonetan

Nice list Don! I'm especially envious of how many you've seen live


----------



## Bettina

Don Fatale said:


> Oh what the hell, I'm bored. Got to say I like this list better than the recent TC readers list, although the lack of modern opera is a weakness. Items in bold I've seen live. A few oddities that have eluded me, but sooner or later I'll catch them.
> 
> *1. Der Ring des Nibelungen - Richard Wagner
> 2. Tristan Und Isolde - Richard Wagner
> 3. Don Giovanni - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
> 4. Otello - Giuseppe Verdi
> 5. The Marriage of Figaro - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
> 6. Aida - Giuseppe Verdi
> 7. La Boheme - Giacomo Puccini
> 8. Madame Butterfly - Giacomo Puccini
> 9. Der Rosenkavalier - Richard Strauss
> 10. Parsifal - Richard Wagner
> 11. Boris Godunov - Modest Mussorgsky
> 12. La Traviata - Giuseppe Verdi
> 13. Carmen - Georges Bizet
> 14. Die Meistersinger - Richard Wagner
> 15. The Magic Flute - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
> 16. Tosca - Giacomo Puccini
> 17. Falstaff - Giuseppe Verdi
> 18. Rigoletto - Giuseppe Verdi
> 19. The Barber Of Seville - Gioacchino Rossini
> 20. Cavalleria Rusticana - Pietro Mascagni
> 21. Il Trovatore - Giuseppe Verdi
> 22. Turandot - Giacomo Puccini
> 23. Faust - Charles Gounod
> 24. Lohengrin - Richard Wagner
> 25. Peter Grimes - Benjamin Britten
> 26. Norma - Vincenzo Bellini
> 27. Tannhauser - Richard Wagner
> 28. I Pagliacci - Rugierro Leoncavallo
> 29. Pelleas and Mellisande - Claude Debussy
> *30. Porgy & Bess - George Gershwin
> *31. Lucia Di Lammermoor - Gaetano Donizetti
> *32. Les Troyens - Hector Berlioz
> *33. Elektra - Richard Strauss
> 34. Cosi Fan Tutte - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
> 35. Fidelio - Ludwig Van Beethoven
> 36. Eugene Onegin - Peter Illitch Tchaikovsky
> *37. La Gioconda - Amiliare Ponchielli
> *38. Wozzeck - Alban Berg
> 39. Incoronazione di Poppea - Claudio Monteverdi
> 40. Salome - Richard Strauss
> 41. Dido and Aneas - Henry Purcell
> 42. The Cunning Little Vixen - Leos Janacek
> 43. Orpheus and Eurydice - Christoph Willibald Gluck
> 44. Don Carlos - Giuseppe Verdi
> 45. Orfeo - Claudio Monteverdi
> 46. Der Freischutz - Carl Maria von Weber
> 47. Samson and Delilah - Camille Saint-Saens
> 48. Tales of Hoffman - Jacques Offenbach
> 49. Hansel and Gretel - Engelbert Humperdink
> 50. The Flying Dutchman - Richard Wagner
> 51. The Rake's Progress - Igor Stravinsky
> 52. Manon - Jules Massenet
> 53. The Bartered Bride - Bedrich Smetana
> 54. The Huguenots - Giacomo Meyerbeer
> 55. La Forza Del Destino - Giuseppe Verdi
> 56. Manon Lescaut - Giacomo Puccini
> 57. Ariadne auf Naxos - Richard Strauss
> 58. Romeo and Juliet - Charles Gounod
> 59. L'Elisir D'Amore - Gaetano Donizetti
> *60. Lakme - Leo Delibes
> *61. Andre Chenier - Umberto Giordano
> 62. Werther - Jules Massenet
> 63. Don Pasquale - Gaetano Donizetti
> 64. Jenufa - Leos Janacek
> 65. The Girl of the Golden West - Giacomo Puccini
> 66. La Sonnambula - Vincenzo Bellini
> 67. Turn of the Screw - Benjamin Britten
> 68. Duke Bluebeard's Castle - Bela Bartok
> 69. William Tell - Gioacchino Rossini
> 70. The Masked Ball - Giuseppe Verdi
> *71. Julius Caesar - Georg Friedrich Handel
> *72. La Serva Padrona - Giovanni Pergolesi
> *73. Die Tote Stadt - Erich Wolfgang Korngold
> 74. Louise - Gustave Charpentier
> *75. Mefistofele - Arrigo Boito
> 76. I Puritani - Vincenzo Bellini
> *77. Semiramide - Gioacchino Rossini
> 78. L'Africaine - Giacomo Meyerbeer
> 79. Castor et Pollux - Jean-Philippe Rameau
> *80. La Cenerentola - Gioacchino Rossini
> 81. Pique Dame - Peter Illitch Tchaikovsky
> 82. Billy Budd - Benjamin Britten
> *83. La Fille du Regiment - Gaetano Donizetti
> 84. Le Prophete - Giacomo Meyerbeer
> 85. Le Coq D'or - Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakoff
> *86. McBeth - Giuseppe Verdi
> 87. Les Pecheurs des Perles - Georges Bizet
> *88. The Pilgrim's Progress - Ralph Vaughan Williams
> 89. Ernani - Giuseppe Verdi
> 90. Gianni Schicchi - Giacomo Puccini
> 91. Beatrice et Benedict - Hector Berlioz
> *92. Simon Boccanegra - Giuseppe Verdi
> *93. Prince Igor - Alexander Borodin
> *94. Nabucco - Giuseppe Verdi
> 95. The Abduction from the Seraglio - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
> *96. Euryanthe - Carl Maria von Weber
> *97. Dialogues des Carmelites - Frances Poulenc
> *98. Atys - Jean-Baptiste Lully
> 99. Thais - Jules Massenet
> 100. Martha - Friederich von Flotow


This is a pretty good list. Where did you find it?

I have to say, though, I am shocked at the omission of Ravel's L'enfant et les sortilèges. I wonder why it was omitted. Was it considered too modern? Or too short?


----------



## hpowders

PetrB said:


> This is as ridiculous as the internet 'published' list of the top ten piano concerti, with that ten having two each by Rachmaninov and Beethoven.
> 
> It is no wonder universities are severely limiting which internet sources are allowed for even the most basic English 101 paper.
> 
> What's the appeal? An individual or individuals get to voice 'their' opinion as if it were from experts who have devoted their lives to a discipline? 'Oooh, I'm given a little importance and credibility in the etherways of ze Internets?
> 
> LOL.


I miss you PetrB. Intellectuality has gone severely downhill since you have left TC.

Yes. Lists of 100 anything in some sort of pseudo-order is a bit over the top. :lol::lol:


----------



## Don Fatale

The list is copied from the original post. 

Bonetan, when I finally realised that no-one was sending me airplane and opera tickets, I figured I'd better do it for myself. If there's one thing better than a night at the opera it's two or more consecutive nights at the opera, and doing in any of the vast choice of European cities brings with it the great pleasure of travel. This is invariably interesting, fun, safe and affordable. Hope you get chance to see live operas too.


----------



## Bonetan

Don Fatale said:


> The list is copied from the original post.
> 
> Bonetan, when I finally realised that no-one was sending me airplane and opera tickets, I figured I'd better do it for myself. If there's one thing better than a night at the opera it's two or more consecutive nights at the opera, and doing in any of the vast choice of European cities brings with it the great pleasure of travel. This is invariably interesting, fun, safe and affordable. Hope you get chance to see live operas too.


Thanks Don! I'm planning to move to Europe next year so I'll be getting right on that!


----------



## Woodduck

There aren't 100 greatest things of any kind. Reality isn't that good.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Almaviva said:


> I found this list in the Internet, supposedly ranked "for their innovation and influence, as well as their aesthetic importance, historical significance and lasting popularity."
> 
> Question 1: Do you agree? Which ones are overrated, underrated, or missing, in your opinion?
> 
> Question 2: How many of these have you seen/heard?


The following are those from Almaviva's list that I have at least seen. Bold are my favorites.

*1. Der Ring des Nibelungen - Richard Wagner* (have 7 Ring cycles and one on DVD)
6. Aida - Giuseppe Verdi (saw live once in 1980s)
7. La Boheme - Giacomo Puccini (heard once, no interest in further listening)
10. Parsifal - Richard Wagner (just checking this one out now on DVD and CD)
*11. Boris Godunov - Modest Mussorgsky *(saw live 1980s, have several CDs and DVDs of it)
14. Die Meistersinger - Richard Wagner (have several DVDs and CDs)
15. The Magic Flute - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (saw live 1980s)
16. Tosca - Giacomo Puccini (several DVDs and CDS)
*19. The Barber Of Seville - Gioacchino Rossini* (have 13 CDs and about a dozen DVDs)
24. Lohengrin - Richard Wagner (several CDs and DVDS)
*35. Fidelio - Ludwig Van Beethoven* (about 21 CDs and 10 DVDS)
39. Incoronazione di Poppea - Claudio Monteverdi (one CD)
43. Orpheus and Eurydice - Christoph Willibald Gluck (one CD)
45. Orfeo - Claudio Monteverdi (one CD)
46. Der Freischutz - Carl Maria von Weber (have on CD and DVD)
47. Samson and Delilah - Camille Saint-Saens (two CDs)
48. Tales of Hoffman - Jacques Offenbach (two on CD)
49. Hansel and Gretel - Engelbert Humperdink (three on CD, two on DVD)
*50. The Flying Dutchman - Richard Wagner* (two DVD and about 10 CD)
52. Manon - Jules Massenet (one CD, bought for Beverly Sills, opera does not appeal to me)
*59. L'Elisir D'Amore - Gaetano Donizetti* (several CDs and DVDS)
63. Don Pasquale - Gaetano Donizetti (CD and DVD, boring opera)
*66. La Sonnambula - Vincenzo Bellini* (6 or 8 on CD and 3 DVDs)
71. Julius Caesar - Georg Friedrich Handel (one DVD and CD)
*72. La Serva Padrona - Giovanni Pergolesi* (several on CD)
76. I Puritani - Vincenzo Bellini (CD and DVD)
80. La Cenerentola - Gioacchino Rossini (2 CDs and 2 DVDs)
*83. La Fille du Regiment - Gaetano Donizetti* (several CDs, several DVDs)
85. Le Coq D'or - Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakoff (one CD for Beverly Sills)
*100. Martha - Friederich von Flotow* (several CDs)

Missing from the list (unless I overlooked them) are several other of my favorites:

Donizetti's three queens, especially Maria Stuarda.
Rossini's Thieving Magpie
Mascagni's L'amico Fritz
Saint-Saëns' Henry VIII
Paisiello's Nina
Auber's Haydee


----------



## Pugg

Florestan said:


> The following are those from Almaviva's list that I have at least seen. Bold are my favorites.
> 
> *1. Der Ring des Nibelungen - Richard Wagner* (have 7 Ring cycles and one on DVD)
> 6. Aida - Giuseppe Verdi (saw live once in 1980s)
> 7. La Boheme - Giacomo Puccini (heard once, no interest in further listening)
> 10. Parsifal - Richard Wagner (just checking this one out now on DVD and CD)
> *11. Boris Godunov - Modest Mussorgsky *(saw live 1980s, have several CDs and DVDs of it)
> 14. Die Meistersinger - Richard Wagner (have several DVDs and CDs)
> 15. The Magic Flute - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (saw live 1980s)
> 16. Tosca - Giacomo Puccini (several DVDs and CDS)
> *19. The Barber Of Seville - Gioacchino Rossini* (have 13 CDs and about a dozen DVDs)
> 24. Lohengrin - Richard Wagner (several CDs and DVDS)
> *35. Fidelio - Ludwig Van Beethoven* (about 21 CDs and 10 DVDS)
> 39. Incoronazione di Poppea - Claudio Monteverdi (one CD)
> 43. Orpheus and Eurydice - Christoph Willibald Gluck (one CD)
> 45. Orfeo - Claudio Monteverdi (one CD)
> 46. Der Freischutz - Carl Maria von Weber (have on CD and DVD)
> 47. Samson and Delilah - Camille Saint-Saens (two CDs)
> 48. Tales of Hoffman - Jacques Offenbach (two on CD)
> 49. Hansel and Gretel - Engelbert Humperdink (three on CD, two on DVD)
> *50. The Flying Dutchman - Richard Wagner* (two DVD and about 10 CD)
> 52. Manon - Jules Massenet (one CD, bought for Beverly Sills, opera does not appeal to me)
> *59. L'Elisir D'Amore - Gaetano Donizetti* (several CDs and DVDS)
> 63. Don Pasquale - Gaetano Donizetti (CD and DVD, boring opera)
> *66. La Sonnambula - Vincenzo Bellini* (6 or 8 on CD and 3 DVDs)
> 71. Julius Caesar - Georg Friedrich Handel (one DVD and CD)
> *72. La Serva Padrona - Giovanni Pergolesi* (several on CD)
> 76. I Puritani - Vincenzo Bellini (CD and DVD)
> 80. La Cenerentola - Gioacchino Rossini (2 CDs and 2 DVDs)
> *83. La Fille du Regiment - Gaetano Donizetti* (several CDs, several DVDs)
> 85. Le Coq D'or - Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakoff (one CD for Beverly Sills)
> *100. Martha - Friederich von Flotow* (several CDs)
> 
> Missing from the list (unless I overlooked them) are several other of my favorites:
> 
> Donizetti's three queens, especially Maria Stuarda.
> Rossini's Thieving Magpie
> Mascagni's L'amico Fritz
> Saint-Saëns' Henry VIII
> Paisiello's Nina
> Auber's Haydee


These ones would not make the top 100.


----------



## Meyerbeer Smith

*Heard*
Seen live

* 1. Der Ring des Nibelungen - Richard Wagner*
*2. Tristan Und Isolde - Richard Wagner*
*3. Don Giovanni - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart*
*4. Otello - Giuseppe Verdi*
*5. The Marriage of Figaro - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart*
*6. Aida - Giuseppe Verdi
7. La Boheme - Giacomo Puccini
8. Madame Butterfly - Giacomo Puccini
9. Der Rosenkavalier - Richard Strauss
10. Parsifal - Richard Wagner
11. Boris Godunov - Modest Mussorgsky
12. La Traviata - Giuseppe Verdi
13. Carmen - Georges Bizet
14. Die Meistersinger - Richard Wagner
15. The Magic Flute - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
16. Tosca - Giacomo Puccini
17. Falstaff - Giuseppe Verdi
18. Rigoletto - Giuseppe Verdi
19. The Barber Of Seville - Gioacchino Rossini
20. Cavalleria Rusticana - Pietro Mascagni
21. Il Trovatore - Giuseppe Verdi
22. Turandot - Giacomo Puccini
23. Faust - Charles Gounod
24. Lohengrin - Richard Wagner
25. Peter Grimes - Benjamin Britten
26. Norma - Vincenzo Bellini
27. Tannhauser - Richard Wagner
28. I Pagliacci - Rugierro Leoncavallo
29. Pelleas and Mellisande - Claude Debussy*
30. Porgy & Bess - George Gershwin
*31. Lucia Di Lammermoor - Gaetano Donizetti
32. Les Troyens - Hector Berlioz
33. Elektra - Richard Strauss
34. Cosi Fan Tutte - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
35. Fidelio - Ludwig Van Beethoven
36. Eugene Onegin - Peter Illitch Tchaikovsky
37. La Gioconda - Amiliare Ponchielli*
38. Wozzeck - Alban Berg
*39. Incoronazione di Poppea - Claudio Monteverdi*
*40. Salome - Richard Strauss*
41. Dido and Aneas - Henry Purcell
42. The Cunning Little Vixen - Leos Janacek
*43. Orpheus and Eurydice - Christoph Willibald Gluck*
*44. Don Carlos - Giuseppe Verdi
45. Orfeo - Claudio Monteverdi*
*46. Der Freischutz - Carl Maria von Weber
47. Samson and Delilah - Camille Saint-Saens
48. Tales of Hoffman - Jacques Offenbach
49. Hansel and Gretel - Engelbert Humperdink
50. The Flying Dutchman - Richard Wagner*
51. The Rake's Progress - Igor Stravinsky
*52. Manon - Jules Massenet*
53. The Bartered Bride - Bedrich Smetana
*54. The Huguenots - Giacomo Meyerbeer
55. La Forza Del Destino - Giuseppe Verdi
56. Manon Lescaut - Giacomo Puccini
57. Ariadne auf Naxos - Richard Strauss
58. Romeo and Juliet - Charles Gounod
59. L'Elisir D'Amore - Gaetano Donizetti
60. Lakme - Leo Delibes
61. Andre Chenier - Umberto Giordano
62. Werther - Jules Massenet
63. Don Pasquale - Gaetano Donizetti*
64. Jenufa - Leos Janacek
65. The Girl of the Golden West - Giacomo Puccini
*66. La Sonnambula - Vincenzo Bellini
67. Turn of the Screw - Benjamin Britten
68. Duke Bluebeard's Castle - Bela Bartok
69. William Tell - Gioacchino Rossini
70. The Masked Ball - Giuseppe Verdi*
*71. Julius Caesar - Georg Friedrich Handel*
*72. La Serva Padrona - Giovanni Pergolesi*
*73. Die Tote Stadt - Erich Wolfgang Korngold*
*74. Louise - Gustave Charpentier*
*75. Mefistofele - Arrigo Boito*
*76. I Puritani - Vincenzo Bellini
77. Semiramide - Gioacchino Rossini
78. L'Africaine - Giacomo Meyerbeer*
79. Castor et Pollux - Jean-Philippe Rameau
*80. La Cenerentola - Gioacchino Rossini
81. Pique Dame - Peter Illitch Tchaikovsky
82. Billy Budd - Benjamin Britten
83. La Fille du Regiment - Gaetano Donizetti
84. Le Prophète - Giacomo Meyerbeer
85. Le Coq D'or - Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakoff
86. McBeth - Giuseppe Verdi
87. Les Pecheurs des Perles - Georges Bizet*
88. The Pilgrim's Progress - Ralph Vaughan Williams
*89. Ernani - Giuseppe Verdi
90. Gianni Schicchi - Giacomo Puccini
91. Beatrice et Benedict - Hector Berlioz
92. Simon Boccanegra - Giuseppe Verdi
93. Prince Igor - Alexander Borodin
94. Nabucco - Giuseppe Verdi
95. The Abduction from the Seraglio - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
96. Euryanthe - Carl Maria von Weber
97. Dialogues des Carmelites - Frances Poulenc*
98. Atys - Jean-Baptiste Lully
*99. Thais - Jules Massenet
100. Martha - Friederich von Flotow*

Overrated:
Puccini - Madama Butterfly (popular, but boring)
Verdi - La Traviata (popular, but doesn't interest me)
Britten - Peter Grimes
Massenet - Manon (at least a dozen more interesting Massenets)
Massenet - Werther
Verdi - La Forza del Destino (overwrought, confused and silly)

Good to see that there are three Meyerbeers in the list! All very underrated where they are. _Troyens_, _Prince Igor _and _Pique Dame _should all be higher.

Missing (either a warhorse, historically important or I think it's great):

Adam - _Le Postillon de Lonjumeau_
Anything by Auber - _La Muette de Portici_: aesthetically important - and as for historical importance: it was the signal for the Belgian Revolution! _Fra Diavolo_, at least! _Le Domino noir_, _Le cheval de bronze_ and _Les diamants de la couronne_, if only as historically important warhorses. _Gustave III_, too.
Berlioz - _Benvenuto Cellini_
Boieldieu - _La Dame blanche_
Britten - _A Midsummer Night's Dream
_
Chabrier - _L'étoile_
Cherubini - _Lodoïska_; _Médée_
Cilea - _Adriana Lecouvreur_
Cornelius - _Der Barbier von Bagdad
_
D'Indy - _Fervaal_
Donizetti - _La favorite_; _Maria Stuarda_; _Roberto Devereux_; _Maria di Rohan_; _Imelda de' Lambertazzi_; _Linda di Chamounix_; _Dom Sébastien
_
Dukas - _Ariane et Barbe-bleue_
Dvořák - _Rusalka_
Fauré - _Pénélope_
Giordano - _Fedora_
Glass - _Akhnaten_; _Satyagraha
_
Glinka - _Ruslan and Lyudmila_ ; _A Life for the Tsar_ (two foundation stones of Russian opera)
Gluck - _Iphigénie en Tauride_ ; _Iphigénie en Aulide
_
Goldmark - _Die Königin von Saba
_
Grétry - _Richard Cœur-de-lion_
Halévy - _La Juive_ (probably also _La Reine de Chypre_, which Wagner raved about)
Herold - _Zampa_ ; _Le Pré aux clercs
_
Hoffmann - _Undine_
Lalo - _Le Roi d'Ys_
Lortzing - _Zar und Zimmermann
_
Magnard - _Guercœur_
Marschner - _Der Vampyr_; _Hans Heiling
_
Mascagni - _Iris
_
Massenet - _Roma ; Ariane ; Amadis _; _Grisélidis_ ; _Cendrillon _; _Cherubin_; _Esclarmonde_, &c… !
Méhul - _Joseph_
Mercadante - _Orazi e Curiazi
_
Messiaen - _Saint François d'Assise
_
Meyerbeer - _Robert le Diable _(smash hit throughout Europe, hugely influential); _L'étoile du nord_; _Dinorah (Le pardon de Ploërmel)
_
Moniuszko - _Straszny dwór_
Mozart - _Idomeneo; La clemenza del Tito
_
Mussorgsky - _Khovanshchina
_
Nicolai - _Die lustigen Weiber von Windsor
_
Offenbach - needs more Offenbach!
Paisiello - his _Barbiere_
Pfitzner - _Palestrina_
Prokofiev - _War and Peace_
Ravel - _L'Enfant et les sortilèges_
Reyer - _Sigurd_
Rimsky-Korsakoff - _Sadko _(at the very least); probably also _The Legend of the Invisible City of Kitezh and the Maiden Fevroniya_ (phew!); _Snegurochka_; _The Tsar's Bride_; _Kashchey the Deathless
_
Rossini - the serious, mature operas of his later period, such as _Armida_, _La donna del lago_, _Maometto II_ and _Mosè_. Given its popularity in the 19th century, _Otello _should be on there. _Ermione_ (a bel canto Elektra)? _Le comte Ory_? _Tancredi_?
Rousseau - _Le devin du village
_
Saint-Saëns - _Henry VIII_
Salieri - should be on this list; _Tarare _or _Les Danaïdes_
Schumann - _Genoveva_
Spohr - _Jessonda_
Spontini - _La Vestale_ (historically important - big influence on Berlioz, Wagner & Meyerbeer)
Strauss - _Die Frau ohne Schatten_, for a start. _Capriccio, Daphne, Friedenstag _and _Die Schweigsame Frau_, too.
Tchaikovsky - _The Maid of Orleans_ (better than _Onegin_)
Thomas - _Hamlet; Mignon_
Wolf-Ferrari - _I gioelli della Madonna; Il segreto di Susanna
_
Zandonai - _Francesca da Rimini_

It grows! Raising the question: Is it actually possible to compile a 100 greatest opera list? By whose standards?


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## Meyerbeer Smith

Pugg said:


> Donizetti's three queens, especially Maria Stuarda.
> Rossini's Thieving Magpie
> Mascagni's L'amico Fritz
> Saint-Saëns' Henry VIII
> Paisiello's Nina
> Auber's Haydee[
> 
> These ones would not make the top 100.


Do you know _Heny VIII_?

_Haydée _was a mid-19th century warhorse - like all of Auber's operas, performed throughout Europe; it remained in the Paris repertoire until 1894 (500 performances); critically acclaimed - Clément, for instance, calls it his most distinguished late period work.


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## hpowders

After all these 100 _____ lists, I'm beginning to feel a bit listless!


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## Pugg

SimonTemplar said:


> Pugg said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you know _Heny VIII_?
> 
> _Haydée _was a mid-19th century warhorse - like all of Auber's operas, performed throughout Europe; it remained in the Paris repertoire until 1894 (500 performances); critically acclaimed - Clément, for instance, calls it his most distinguished late period work.
> 
> 
> 
> It's still on my wish list.
Click to expand...


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## Meyerbeer Smith

Pugg said:


> It's still on my wish list.


Aha! It's glorious - certainly the equal of _Samson_, and arguably more dramatic and better characterised.

This is the video of the Compiègne production:





No subtitles, unfortunately!

Here's a synopsis: http://spikesworld.spike-jamie.com/opera/HENRY VIII.pdf. 
Libretto (in French): https://archive.org/details/henryviiiopraen00silvgoog.
Article about the Botstein production - excellent overview: http://newyorkarts.net/2012/08/saint-saens-grand-opera-henry-viii-bard/

A playlist of some of the highlights:


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