# Co-composing / collaboration in classical music



## jurianbai (Nov 23, 2008)

Is classical music a genre that hardly can have more than one composer working on same composition ? Is yes then why? Any example from famous composers working together? 

I mean what's wrong with one person doing the violin part and the other person done the piano section.


----------



## Yagan Kiely (Feb 6, 2008)

Movie scores are sometimes done in a collaboration, and they are (often) strongly classically based.


----------



## confuoco (Feb 8, 2008)

It's really not frequent. Here are some examples that come on my mind (I know the most of them are not exactly what you mean):

*the most frequent - instrumentation of piano or chamber work composed by dead composer (well-known is instrumentation of Pictures from an Exhibition ba Ravel, instrumentation of Piano Quartet No. 1 (Brahms) by Schoenberg, etc.)
*instrumentation of work composed by living composer by request of himself - Andre Caplet's instrumentation of Images (Debussy, controversial)
*completing of unfinished works (f.e. caused by composer's dead) - many cases, for example finishing of Bartok's Piano Concerto No. 3 by Tibor Serly
*more composers participating on one work (each movement from different one) - FAE sonata, 1st movement by Dietrich, 2nd and 4th by Schumann, 3rd by Brahms.
*more composers participating on one movement - I really don't know about classical work composed in this manner.

But it makes sense...no composer want to do "give and take" in the work that is signed by his name. Everybody thinks he knows how to do it better.


----------



## Guest (Jan 14, 2009)

It has really _become_ quite frequent, however.

There are several composer duos, for instance, who compose under their duo's name: Crawling With Tarts (Michael Gendreau and Sylvia Dycus-Gendreau), and My Cat is an Alien (Maurizio and Roberto Opalio), and Parallel Lives (Michael Gardiner and John Latartara--not sure these guys are still working together, but they've put out one wildly entertaining album: _Beethoven Hammerklavier conducted by Parallel Lives_).

Busratch is another duo (formerly a quartet) of composer/performers (Takahiro Yamamoto and Katsura Mouri). Busratch has collaborated with Otomo Yoshihide (Time Magic City).

And Yoshihide has collaborated with many people, including Montreal turntablist Martin Tétreault.

And those are only a few examples. In new music, it is tempting to conclude that collaboration is the norm. It's certainly quite common.


----------



## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I wonder how much the Schumann's collaborated. Or how much Brahms and Clara Schumann collaborated. Is there any scholarly research on that? It stands to reason that they would at least consult each other on things.

I do know that Wilhelm Friedemann Bach added timpani and brass parts to his father's BWV80 "Ein feste Burg ist unser Gott." This is still similar to just orchestrating as I believe the original parts were for oboes. It was also a posthumous collaboration.

Then there are the plethora of scholars who have attempted to finish unfinished pieces, like the last fugue in The Art of the Fugue, or trying to reconstruct Beethoven's 10th Symphony. These are unwilling collaborations however.

There really is no Lennon and McCartney of the classical realm that comes to my mind, but given time I'd bet this forum will find examples.

[Edit - I remember someone mentioning in a thread a few months back about a massive suite for orchestra or maybe it was a piano concerto where several romantic period or impressionist period composers contributed a movement each. Anyone rememebr that? I know my memory is vague on this, but I thought it was an interesting idea when I heard about it -- Sort of a 19th century equivalent of Live Aid.]


----------



## Guest (Jan 15, 2009)

Weston said:


> There really is no Lennon and McCartney of the classical realm that comes to my mind, but given time I'd bet this forum will find examples.


Indeed, right there in the post which PREceded yours!! (But perhaps we differ about what "classical realm" means, eh?)


----------



## jurianbai (Nov 23, 2008)

i think the closest to what in my question is the Clara, R.Schumann, Brahms collaboration. For the works of unfinished work by famous composer it more like an improvisation or re-arrangement.

Also there is story on how J. Haydn played string quartet with Mozart, Vanhal and Dittersdorf, why won't they just spend sometimes and dedicated to composed a co-works.

So, I agree there are less example of pure "Lennon-McCartney" type of collaboration in classical music.


----------



## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Hey, didn't Joachim practically write the solo violin part to Brahms' violin concerto himself?


----------



## Yagan Kiely (Feb 6, 2008)

> completing of unfinished works (f.e. caused by composer's dead) - many cases, for example finishing of Bartok's Piano Concerto No. 3 by Tibor Serly


Strange example, would have thought Mozart and Mahler would have been better.


----------



## confuoco (Feb 8, 2008)

World Violist said:


> Hey, didn't Joachim practically write the solo violin part to Brahms' violin concerto himself?


Are you kidding?  Only cadenza.


----------



## confuoco (Feb 8, 2008)

Yagan Kiely said:


> Strange example, would have thought Mozart and Mahler would have been better.


Well, I don't see why it should be strange


----------



## Yagan Kiely (Feb 6, 2008)

Not the obvious examples. Normally I would think it less strange to provide examples of actual famous pieces. And yes, k626 is MUCH more famous.


----------



## confuoco (Feb 8, 2008)

Yagan Kiely said:


> Not the obvious examples. Normally I would think it less strange to provide examples of actual famous pieces. And yes, k626 is MUCH more famous.


Maybe, but I listen to Bartok No 3 MUCH more frequently than to K 626, so it came on my mind as first.


----------



## Guest (Jan 16, 2009)

jurianbai said:


> i think the closest to what in my question is the Clara, R.Schumann, Brahms collaboration.
> 
> I agree there are less example of pure "Lennon-McCartney" type of collaboration in classical music.


Actually, there are _more_ examples of the Lennon-McCartney type, but you have to come into the, how shall I put this?, the Lennon-McCartney _era_ of classical composition.

Cage and Tudor

Cage and Hiller

ter Schiphorst and Oehring

Tone and Hecker

Marclay, Tone, and Wolff

Ferrari and eRikm

Folks like that.


----------



## R-F (Feb 12, 2008)

Pizzicato Polka was written by Josef Strauss & Johann Strauss. Not a monumental piece, but I can't think of any other examples.


----------



## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

some guy said:


> Actually, there are _more_ examples of the Lennon-McCartney type, but you have to come into the, how shall I put this?, the Lennon-McCartney _era_ of classical composition.
> 
> Cage and Tudor
> 
> ...


I'm going to have to check these pieces out. I do love this sort of thing (not surprising in light of my avatar).

I make a subtle distinction between improvisation and composition however, albeit a subtle distinction. Many of the descriptions of these pieces that I find on the web strike me as improvisations. Or in pop parlance, jam sessions.

I'm not dismissing them because of this. On the contrary, I think that aspect is rather exciting. I'm just speculating as to why we might not think of them in terms of collaborations or compositions.

And of course in the modern (or post-modern or whatever period we're in) classical realm, you can have various degrees of works in between complete improv and complete composition. Not having heard them, but only having read a description, I can't truely tell where they fall in this spectrum.


----------



## matsoljare (Jul 28, 2008)

There's also the obvious example of a composer writing variations, or a variation on a theme by another composer, or incorporating a quote of their work in their own, but i guess that's not what you mean?


----------

