# Unable to find the musical idea



## Juan (Jan 31, 2012)

Hi:

When listening to a classical music work, i try to identify what are the themes (or motifs, or ideas. I use theme here in a wide sense). Not necessarely something to hum, of course. But something recognizable enough, so i can identify when it reappers, identically, varied, elaborated, etc. Am i asking too much? 

That said, i must admit that with some composers (and with specific works from other composers), i cannot find the "themes". Music, to my ears, seems to wander, and after it ends, i am unable to remember any single idea. This happens to me with some works of Debussy, for instance. Or some Wagner orchestral works. Never with Mozart, Beethoven, Mendelssohn, Tchaikovsky, Dvorak, etc.

Do you experience something similar? With what composers?


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Im having the same trouble with Italian composer Malipiero, specifically his string quartets. Sometimes they just seem like a randomly tossed together group of episodes.
Rautavaara's music used to give me that trouble too. But I've come to accept a lot of his music is more about establishing moods and textures than they are about establishing melodic themes. Though when he does use thematic material it's not too hard to pick up on.

I dont have this problem with any of the "major" composers.


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## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

If a work (beginning in the late 17th century to some extent) is successfully 'organic' in that its material is self-generating, I think it will always inform the listener but, in some cases, perhaps, on a subliminal level. If a piece 'works' for me, yet I have not yet truly absorbed as much as I am able, then this idea of organicism, that appeals so much to my own tastes in music, is probably working behind the scenes. Wagner's works do have this in his system of leitmotifs which he combines and transforms in genius fashion, but there are spaces of what I would call his version of Recitative (Wotan and Fricka's first long exchange in Die Walkure...2nd Act?) where it is difficult to hold the threads together. On the other hand, 'Tristan' is extremely organic and also 'Parsifal'. Beethoven is my greatest hero in part because of what I call his organic way of composing and by extension, his long range planning. This is the composedly art at its greatest...in my opinion, and I'm not really talking about melodies _per se_, but material that may be generated by themes/melodies etc., yet work at a deeper, psychological level. To Beethoven I would add certain works of Berg, Bartok, Schnittke and Elliot Carter=whose string quartets are appealing to me now in a way as never before because I am able to perceive more of his organic quality. There are many other composers who achieve 'organic unity' in ways other than strict motivic devices...possibly through color, and transformation. I believe this is one of Debussy's methods, color particularly, and also various types of contrast that move a composition forward. Sibelius is another great composer for people who are drawn to works that are 'self-generating' - my term, so far as I know, but, simplistically, the acorn and the oak metaphor. Oh yes, and Mahler, whose gigantic symphonies would fall apart save his classical manner of reference. Elliot Carter studied strict, academic methods with Holst and with Boulanger, and then said because of that training, he felt he 'had the right' to follow more modern, abstract directions. Sorry to go on, but your post is a subject that is very interesting to me.


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