# Why is Wagner so good?



## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Lately I've been speculating why Wagner is quite so good. The infinite yearning, the music as malleable as a lump of clay, the admission and the penetration - what do you guys think?


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## BeethoFan (Jun 23, 2010)

Because Ride of the Valkyries?


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

I love the Ride of the Valkyries! You too?


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## BeethoFan (Jun 23, 2010)

Dum de duh duh deh DEH, de duh de de DEH, de duh de DEH deh, de duh de DEHHH!


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

BeethoFan said:


> Dum de duh duh deh DEH, de duh de de DEH, de duh de DEH deh, de duh de DEHHH!


I like the part where the large women are like "Hojotoho! Hojotoho! Heiaha! Heiaha! Helmwige! Hier!"


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## Llyranor (Dec 20, 2010)

I'm trying to get into Wagner. I got a CD-set with Furtwangler conducting some of the orchestral works (Meistersinger prelude, Parsifal prelude, and Tannhauser overture are amazing). But I haven't gotten into his full operas yet.

Now, I'll be attending a performance of the Flying Dutchman later this year, so that'll be my chance to give it another shot.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Llyranor said:


> I'm trying to get into Wagner. I got a CD-set with Furtwangler conducting some of the orchestral works (Meistersinger prelude, Parsifal prelude, and Tannhauser overture are amazing). But I haven't gotten into his full operas yet.
> 
> Now, I'll be attending a performance of the Flying Dutchman later this year, so that'll be my chance to give it another shot.


I'm fully confident you will get there.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Wagner's music forces you to surrender to passion. That's why some people are fearful of it.


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## principe (Sep 3, 2012)

I believe in the thread of "Tristan und Isolde", in the Opera section, Dionisio and me have covered some (or most) of the reasons why Wagner is one of the greatest composers ever (and not only). 
Some other members contributed to that end, as well.

Principe


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

He invented his own style and made it work, he put a lot of passion into what he did. Conceptually he had some really fascinating ideas that stay with a person long after they've finished listening to the music. Tristan und Isolde is quite haunting. The story seems overly simplistic at first, yet I find myself often coming back to ideas that were presented in it and thinking about them. Its a deeper work than it appears on the surface, that is a quality I really appreciate in a work of music and/or art.


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## drpraetorus (Aug 9, 2012)

Wagner is so good because he goes to the psychology behind the music, especially the sub-conscious and id. Those who think he is good are those willing to surrender to the music.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

beethofan said:


> dum de duh duh deh deh, de duh de de deh, de duh de deh deh, de duh de dehhh!


kill da wabbit! Kill da wabbit! Kill da wabbit!!!!!!


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

Wagner used a time machine and composed music for the nazis!


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## Guest (Sep 9, 2012)

Couchie said:


> Lately I've been speculating why Wagner is quite so good. The infinite yearning, the music as malleable as a lump of clay, the admission and the penetration - what do you guys think?


What do I think? (I can't speak for anyone else, of course.)

He's one of those composers that you can't fail to be aware of - even if all you've seen is a Marx Bros film, listened to a Hans Zimmer soundtrack or watched a Stephen Fry documentary. But thus far, his attraction has eluded me: unlike other composers unknown to me, who, whenever I've gone looking for more, I've gone out and bought some, Wagner leaves me cold.

Sorry couchie.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

I guess that catchy pop song like 'Ride of the Valkyries' is something that most listeners are able to actualy hear and understand. Even though that's great composition no matter how simple is, Wagner made much more great music. Here are some of my favorite orchestral pieces.


























If you don't like nazis for anything else, you must love them cause of Wagner .. ok, just kiddin!

His music tends to be MAGICAL on many levels and that's why I think it's so great. Obviously, Hitler did find inspiration in such music, but why it was connected with such negative inspiration I will never understand. I guess that all his crazy dreams about superior german race came mostly from Wagner's operas.


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

drpraetorus said:


> Wagner is so good because he goes to the psychology behind the music, especially the sub-conscious and id. Those who think he is good are those willing to surrender to the music.


That could be my issue with him.

Still I'm planning to have a go at the Ring this week. I'm hoping I'll make some headway in getting to like this composer


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

Unresolved half diminished sevenths.


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## eorrific (May 14, 2011)

brianwalker said:


> Unresolved half diminished sevenths.


You mean this?


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

jani said:


> Wagner used a time machine and composed music for the nazis!


I can't believe that I've just read this---for Heaven's sake!!


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## hocket (Feb 21, 2010)

nikola said:


> I guess that all his crazy dreams about superior german race came mostly from Wagner's operas.


?

Burgeoning European nationalism, phrenology, eugenics, fashionable anti-semitism, Imperialism, Nietzche etc. etc. I don't suppose any of those would've played a significant part. Wagner's views may well be repellent to us but they can hardly be seen as the 'cause' of Hitler or the Holacaust -get a grip!


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

I don't like opera. Where do I start?


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

moody said:


> I can't believe that I've just read this---for Heaven's sake!!










12345678910


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

hocket said:


> ?
> 
> Burgeoning European nationalism, phrenology, eugenics, fashionable anti-semitism, Imperialism, Nietzche etc. etc. I don't suppose any of those would've played a significant part. Wagner's views may well be repellent to us but they can hardly be seen as the 'cause' of Hitler or the Holacaust -get a grip!


I didn't say that Wagner is cause for 2nd world war... lol... get a grip 
It's only obviously that Wagner's music and operas induced Hitler's imagination and crazyness even more. After all he was big Wagner's fan. He was also close friend to Wagner's grandsons. 
Of course that Wagner's music wasn't reason for holocaust... come on :lol:
We can't blame Wagner's creativity for such awful things like KILLING THE PEOPLE for example. Sure, even without Wagner Hitler would do same **** anyway, that's for sure.


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## principe (Sep 3, 2012)

And, of course, we should not forget that Hitler loved Beethoven, Bruckner and almost the whole pure German tradition.
As for the "Ride of the Valkures", it's far from being an easy "pop song". It's a quite complex, extremely difficult to perform section of the work, requires a huge amount of orchestral and vocal forces and the utmost precision from the performers. One has just to follow the harmonies of the trompones, let alone the whole brass section, to see what an ordeal is for the performers and what a trial for the conductor.

Principe


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

principe said:


> And, of course, we should not forget that Hitler loved Beethoven, Bruckner and almost the whole pure German tradition.
> As for the "Ride of the Valkures", it's far from being an easy "pop song". It's a quite complex, extremely difficult to perform section of the work, requires a huge amount of orchestral and vocal forces and the utmost precision from the performers. One has just to follow the harmonies of the trompones, let alone the whole brass section, to see what an ordeal is for the performers and what a trial for the conductor.
> 
> Principe


Sure, but it has catchy main melody that people can sing easily. Many classical pieces are far more complex and are for sure not that catchy. People obviously can't sing something like this

I don't mean to say that I don't like Valkyres... I love that composition. No matter how simple, complex, catchy or not catchy, it can be always brilliant.


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## Mephistopheles (Sep 3, 2012)

Whoah, slow down! Doesn't this entire thread assume that Wagner _is_ good at all? I didn't realise that was a safe assumption.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Wagner's music is a drug. It's hypnotic,intoxicating, a natural high ! It goes right to the jugular and to the solar plexus . Yet it's also very brainy music which stimulates the mind and the intellect .
Why use cocaine or heroin when you can use a safe drug like Wagner's music ?


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

Couchie said:


> Lately I've been speculating why Wagner is quite so good. The infinite yearning, the music as malleable as a lump of clay, the admission and the penetration - what do you guys think?


The infinite yearning has much to do, I think, with his command of harmony and his ability to wield it in ways that elicit emotional responses. He knew exactly when to resolve a cadence and when not to. I can't quite explain why but I think the malleability has to do with his sense of orchestration: just the right number and combination of brass here, of strings there, etc.


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## tahnak (Jan 19, 2009)

tdc said:


> He invented his own style and made it work, he put a lot of passion into what he did. Conceptually he had some really fascinating ideas that stay with a person long after they've finished listening to the music. Tristan und Isolde is quite haunting. The story seems overly simplistic at first, yet I find myself often coming back to ideas that were presented in it and thinking about them. Its a deeper work than it appears on the surface, that is a quality I really appreciate in a work of music and/or art.


Aptly described.


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## Llyranor (Dec 20, 2010)

DeepR said:


> I don't like opera. Where do I start?


Listen to some of his orchestral overtures and preludes. It might be the gateway drug to Wagner (I haven't gotten into his operas yet, but they have made me want to investigate more into his music)


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I don't know how many times I've read complaints about how militant and obsessive Wagner's fans are... but when one considers that you can't even bring up his name without ever raising the spectre of Hitler and the Nazis what else should one expect?


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## principe (Sep 3, 2012)

I would expect you, Stlukes, to convert to a true and genuine "Wagner fan". 

Principe


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## principe (Sep 3, 2012)

Dear Nicola, the theme of the "ride" is not that easy, though catchy (if you find it as such). 
If you try to sing it from the score is a bit of an ordeal (the difficulty depends, of course, on which line you will choose to sing).

Principe


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

principe said:


> Dear Nicola, the theme of the "ride" is not that easy, though catchy (if you find it as such).
> If you try to sing it from the score is a bit of an ordeal (the difficulty depends, of course, on which line you will choose to sing).
> 
> Principe


Ok, do you think it's that hard to sing 'kill the wabit'? 





Honestly, I'm not tone deaf and I can sing it properly however I want without any practice.


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## BeethoFan (Jun 23, 2010)

Time to come clean... aside from Ride of The Valkyries, I know next to nothing of Wagner's works. 

I guess i'll start with Ring, since ROTV is a part of it anyways. Couchie et al, your favorite performances of it?


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

moody said:


> I can't believe that I've just read this---for Heaven's sake!!


I can't believe you didn't see the joke in this. Maybe a bad joke but still a joke. Hint the joke part was the time machine comment.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

I agree that the orchestral stuff from the operas is quite astounding - the overtures - start of die walkure is just breathtaking - but then the singing starts and it all goes downhill. I just can't get into the operas at all but love the orch excerpts.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I would expect you, Stlukes, to convert to a true and genuine "Wagner fan". 

My point was sarcastic. I have been a Wagner fan for years. Considering the 4 or 5 versions I have of nearly all the of his greatest operas... including the _Ring_... that "fan" might verge on "fanatic".:lol:


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I guess i'll start with Ring, since ROTV is a part of it anyways. Couchie et al, your favorite performances of it?























































*****


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Wagner fanatics generally swear by the "three K's": Clemens Krauss, Hans Knappertsbusch, and Joseph Keilberth (especially the version on Testament UK). All three conductors are masterful Wagnerians, and these recordings are acknowledged as having the best Wagnerian singers in their prime. The only strike against making one of these recordings a first choice is the fact that they were recorded live in the 1950s and thus are not of the highest audiophile quality... although they are still quite powerful. I should also point out that the Keilberth set... according to many the finest... is also very expensive. The Böhm and Furtwängler recordings are highly rated alternatives... also recorded live... albeit while Böhm employs many of the finest singers from the same generation as Krauss, etc... they are arguably a bit past their prime... while Furtwängler lacks a stellar crew of vocalists.

In the realm of studio recordings Solti's is commonly seen as having set the standard. The common criticisms of the Solti set is that he is too bombastic (too bombastic for Wagner?) and some of his singers beyond their prime. Karajan offers an alternative to Solti... often referred to as more intimate... the Ring as chamber music. Criticism of the Karajan set centers on a lack of intensity... especially in the Götterdämmerung... and the fact that some of his singers, rather than being too old, were not seasoned enough for Wagner.

This leaves us with the Janowski and Haitinck sets... both of which are quite fine... with a solid cast of singers. Perhaps neither rivals the classic recordings by Krauss, Knappertsbusch, Kielbert, Karajan, and Solti... but they do have the advantage of being incredible bargains.

Personally, for a first foray into _The Ring_ I would recommend getting 'hold of a DVD and reading up a bit on the work and then jumping in at the deep end with the standard Solti set... or even wait until this set comes out:










For a bargain priced Wagner of real quality... get the Janowski or Haitinck set.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Mephistopheles said:


> Whoah, slow down! Doesn't this entire thread assume that Wagner _is_ good at all? I didn't realise that was a safe assumption.


You and others are fearful of the passion his music could potentially arouse.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Don't forget the Levine/DG/Met Ring (studio, not the DVDs), which has a cast that can hold its own with the eothers; Behrens, Morris, Jerusalem, Wlaschiha, etc, the superb Met orchestra and Levine's inspired conducting; neither too slow or too fast .
I got it several years ago in a boxed set for a very good price. Extensive notes, but no libretto unfortunately.
Not a problem for me, because I know the libretto so well already .


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

I guess I'll throw in and recommend Patrice Chereau's 1980 Bayreuth production on DVD, conducted by Boulez and featuring Donald McIntyre in a stellar performance as Wotan.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I didn't forget Levine or Boulez; I'm less than impressed by either.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

BeethoFan said:


> Time to come clean... aside from Ride of The Valkyries, I know next to nothing of Wagner's works.
> 
> I guess i'll start with Ring, since ROTV is a part of it anyways. Couchie et al, your favorite performances of it?


I like the Solti on CD and Boulez on DVD.

The Ring is a gargantuan work and your first listen is just the first step on a journey of peeling back the layers of understanding and appreciation. Don't fear if it doesn't rock your world on the first listen, it does for some people, but it didn't for me. I find the more familiar I become with it the more powerful and emotionally gripping it becomes - it is truly addictive, overwhelming music and drama unlike any other.


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## BeethoFan (Jun 23, 2010)

Couchie said:


> I like the Solti on CD


'83 Bayreuth good enough?

4 f*&^ing hours?! Where am i gonna find the time to listen to this in one sitting?


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## BeethoFan (Jun 23, 2010)

Oh my. That's just the Götterdämmerung.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

BeethoFan said:


> '83 Bayreuth good enough?
> 
> 4 f*&^ing hours?! Where am i gonna find the time to listen to this in one sitting?


The studio recording: http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Der-Ring-Nibelungen-Cycle/dp/B0000042H4

Solti is fairly brisk and clocks in at 14.6 hours. Some conductors push 17 hours.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

4 f*&^ing hours?! Where am i gonna find the time to listen to this in one sitting?

Oh my. That's just the Götterdämmerung.

:lol:


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## principe (Sep 3, 2012)

In my post, Stlukes, the key words were "true" and "genuine". I was sure you should have been a Wagner fan(atic) for years. As a _fidel_ or _loyal_ to Wagner's music, not to the man himself, I have never been sarcastic for the man and the unwilling repercussions of his music to Hitler. His music always speaks much beyond these irrelevant -to the immense value of his music- trivialities. 
I also have practically any version of his works (not only the great ones), but I don't consider myself as "fanatic", though, if others do, I could understand them.

I have to admit that I almost fully agree with your thorough analysis of the existing recordings of the "Ring", with the exception of Haitink, which I believe is not in the same league as the others. As for Janowski, the latest repackaging is so cheap, compared to the previous ones (I happen to have almost all of the different releases, since the amazingly bulky boxes of the first release, in the 80s). Pentatone plans to release, in the near future, a "Ring" by Janowski from his "live" performances in Berlin, in SACD.
Simone Young's Ring was a quite good recent addition, at least for the orchestral drive, in a quite detailed and bright recording (on OEHMS). The same label is releasing another cycle of the Ring from performances from the Frankfurt Opera, with Weigle on the pit. They sound unexpectedly impressive, if not that profound. Finally, Goodall's Ring, in English, is not one to miss, if you wish something "different", but challenging.
Is anyone interested in anything else except the "Ring"? (Of course, it is understandable: the "Ring" is...Wagner for the grand public).

Principe


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

Because of his enriched Orchestra and his passionate Lyrics mixed with his superior talent


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## principe (Sep 3, 2012)

Dear Nicola, if the "Ride of the Valkures" ends up your argument in the "kill the wabbit", then, I guess I have to rest my case. I may guess that you can easily sing the Valkure's cry at the beginning of the Act II, where the "catchy" theme appears for the first time and the high C is a piece of cake.
Anyway, shall we pronounce that "wabbit" dead?

Principe


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

I just finished viewing/listening my fifth version of _Tristan und Isolde_ in my collection that I purchased recently. Worth every penny spent.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

BeethoFan said:


> '83 Bayreuth good enough?
> 
> 4 f*&^ing hours?! Where am i gonna find the time to listen to this in one sitting?


All you need is real passion to sit through any opera that is over three hours long. It makes you a real man of a listener.


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## poconoron (Oct 26, 2011)

Llyranor said:


> Listen to some of his orchestral overtures and preludes. It might be the gateway drug to Wagner (I haven't gotten into his operas yet, but they have made me want to investigate more into his music)


I listened to this............... and I am underwhelmed.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

principe said:


> Dear Nicola, if the "Ride of the Valkures" ends up your argument in the "kill the wabbit", then, I guess I have to rest my case. I may guess that you can easily sing the Valkure's cry at the beginning of the Act II, where the "catchy" theme appears for the first time and the high C is a piece of cake.
> Anyway, shall we pronounce that "wabbit" dead?
> 
> Principe


Kill the wabbit is awsome! Which cartoons children today have? Pokemons and Hannah montana?

BTW i love the chubby horse Grane that carries Bugs Bunny


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I also have practically any version of his works (not only the great ones), but I don't consider myself as "fanatic", though, if others do, I could understand them.

Well... considering that...

1. I don't have every known version of _The Ring_... indeed I have yet to pick up the classic Keilberth recording... although I do know it.

2. I would rank him behind Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven
3. I have far, far more recordings of Bach than Wagner
4. I have nearly (perhaps even more) recordings of Richard Strauss than Wagner

...I can't really count myself as a fanatic... although he certainly ranks among my favorite composers, and considering the grandeur and sensuality of his music, I can certainly understand just how seductive Wagner can be.

Is anyone interested in anything else except the "Ring"? (Of course, it is understandable: the "Ring" is...Wagner for the grand public).

Actually, I prefer _Tristan und Isolde_ and _Parsifal_ myself.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

poconoron said:


> I listened to this............... and I am underwhelmed.


Listen to some of videos that I posted then. If you will still not like him at all, it's ok.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

nikola said:


> Listen to some of videos that I posted then. If you will still not like him at all, it's ok.


Wagner works all together for me. I cannot distinguish the music from the dramas. They are so united that i think its impossible (especially for Tristan) to invite someone to hear here and there and come up with an opinion. One should not expect great moments or astonashing music if one does not know why the music is played that way. Or maybe it's just me, who never hear Wagner with through his dramas (the Ride and the Bridal Chorus are the exceptions due to the strong cultural impact they have).

Nevertheless, principe proves me wrong.

But thinking about Bridal Chorus, has anyone realised that this commonly played song is, in fact, played from the celebration of a couple's union for life while in the opera is the prelude for the divorce of the shortest marriage in opera?


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Unfortunately, many people make the mistake of thinking that Hitler got all his insane ideas from Wagner, and that Wagner turned him into the unspeakable monster that he was . But this is putting the cart before the horse.
Actually, Hitler read his own insane ideas INTO WAGNER and his works . Yes, Wagner was an anti-semite. But he never advocated genocide of the Jews or any one else. He just disliked them .
Wagner's stage works have nothing to do with the idea of Aryan Germans conquering the world as "the master race", and annihiliating the Jews . The stories of his operas have absolutely nothing to do with this.
In fact, the Ring, far from glorifying the Teutons, shows how Wotan and the gods, and everything else, are destroyed by Wotan and Alberich's insane lust for power and riches . That's not a very Naziiistic story line.
The problem is that Hitler was that Hitler mistook Wagner for having his own insanse theories and notions.
He read things into Wagner's works which simply aren't there .
This is not to excuse Wagner's anti-semitism , just to show that Wagner should not be blamed for Hitler, the Nazis, WW2 and holocaust . I hope this will clarify things for nay one on this forum who has misgivings about Wagner's music because of the man .


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

dionisio said:


> Wagner works all together for me. I cannot distinguish the music from the dramas. They are so united that i think its impossible (especially for Tristan) to invite someone to hear here and there and come up with an opinion. One should not expect great moments or astonashing music if one does not know why the music is played that way. Or maybe it's just me, who never hear Wagner with through his dramas (the Ride and the Bridal Chorus are the exceptions due to the strong cultural impact they have).
> 
> Nevertheless, principe proves me wrong.
> 
> But thinking about Bridal Chorus, has anyone realised that this commonly played song is, in fact, played from the celebration of a couple's union for life while in the opera is the prelude for the divorce of the shortest marriage in opera?


I think that some people don't like that much singing part of classical music, so they rather listen only to orchestral stuff.


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

More specifically Wagner is one of the first composers I started liking. After Bach, Mozart and Johann Strauss II.

Because of his fantastic overtures and preludes.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

superhorn said:


> Unfortunately, many people make the mistake of thinking that Hitler got all his insane ideas from Wagner, and that Wagner turned him into the unspeakable monster that he was . But this is putting the cart before the horse.
> Actually, Hitler read his own insane ideas INTO WAGNER and his works . Yes, Wagner was an anti-semite. But he never advocated genocide of the Jews or any one else. He just disliked them .
> Wagner's stage works have nothing to do with the idea of Aryan Germans conquering the world as "the master race", and annihiliating the Jews . The stories of his operas have absolutely nothing to do with this.
> In fact, the Ring, far from glorifying the Teutons, shows how Wotan and the gods, and everything else, are destroyed by Wotan and Alberich's insane lust for power and riches . That's not a very Naziiistic story line.
> ...


... and Wagner never murdered any Jew or human being for that matter, just a "slight difference" I thought I shall mention.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> It makes you a real man of a listener.


Remember kids, if you're a girl you can't be a real listener. Only men can be good at listening to music.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

BurningDesire said:


> Remember kids, if you're a girl you can't be a real listener. Only men can be good at listening to music.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

neoshredder said:


> I can't believe you didn't see the joke in this. Maybe a bad joke but still a joke. Hint the joke part was the time machine comment.


I'm sure you are right, I suppose I find it difficult to think that it's a subject for jokes.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

nikola said:


> I think that some people don't like that much singing part of classical music, so they rather listen only to orchestral stuff.


They will probably appreciate it when they grow up.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

superhorn said:


> Unfortunately, many people make the mistake of thinking that Hitler got all his insane ideas from Wagner, and that Wagner turned him into the unspeakable monster that he was . But this is putting the cart before the horse.
> Actually, Hitler read his own insane ideas INTO WAGNER and his works . Yes, Wagner was an anti-semite. But he never advocated genocide of the Jews or any one else. He just disliked them .
> Wagner's stage works have nothing to do with the idea of Aryan Germans conquering the world as "the master race", and annihiliating the Jews . The stories of his operas have absolutely nothing to do with this.
> In fact, the Ring, far from glorifying the Teutons, shows how Wotan and the gods, and everything else, are destroyed by Wotan and Alberich's insane lust for power and riches . That's not a very Naziiistic story line.
> ...


I think that certain people are quite pitiful if they really need this to be explained to them.. It never crossed my mind that there was a connection. I wonder what people would say if Hitler was a rabid Bach fan?


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Like an 8th grade history essay, it seems every Wagner thread is doomed to be a discussion of the Nazis.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

BurningDesire said:


> Remember kids, if you're a girl you can't be a real listener. Only men can be good at listening to music.


I, HarpsichordConcerto, apologize for my consistent immaturity in many threads where I post, including snide remarks about great composers and their music. I also need to "grow up" as a listener and not promulgate absurd opinions without any sensible explanation where other much more experienced listeners here at TC (and the real world) can see through the thin fabric of hollow content that I am.

BurningDesire, I hope you accept my apology.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

nikola said:


> I didn't say that Wagner is cause for 2nd world war... lol... get a grip
> It's only obviously that Wagner's music and operas induced Hitler's imagination and crazyness even more. After all he was big Wagner's fan. He was also close friend to Wagner's grandsons.
> ....


I was watching a documentary about sociopaths and one person in that said something like that these people have these 'doom laden visions.' These visions, he said, draw people in, because they 'lift us from the mundane to the metaphysical.' So those kind of parallels can be drawn, and let me tell you, having been on the 'wrong side' of various Wagnerites ire in online discussions, I can kind of feel the heat of that. Not anymore though, since I got some 'cred' on this forum, and these people know that I can bite back. Which is kind of sad, if you think about it.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

nikola said:


> I think that some people don't like that much singing part of classical music, so they rather listen only to orchestral stuff.


As for me, as for the italian culture and as for Wagner, voice is the most beautiful instrument created by Man.

To exclude voice from music is to exclude to roots of music.


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## Carpenoctem (May 15, 2012)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> I, HarpsichordConcerto, apologize for my consistent immaturity in many threads where I post, including snide remarks about great composers and their music. I also need to "grow up" as a listener and not promulgate absurd opinions without any sensible explanation where other much more experienced listeners here at TC (and the real world) can see through the thin fabric of hollow content that I am.
> 
> BurningDesire, I hope you accept my apology.


Well, you Sir are a gentleman and I love your statement in this post. :tiphat:


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

moody said:


> They will probably appreciate it when they grow up.


I didn't know age had anything to do with liking Wagner. Funny that CoAG is a big Wagner fan and is only 15. I'm 29 and I don't like Wagner that much.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I didn't know age had anything to do with liking Wagner. Funny that CoAG is a big Wagner fan and is only 15. I'm 29 and I don't like Wagner that much.

That's is likely because you have yet to learn to appreciate the "most beautiful instrument": the human voice.

As for me, as for the italian culture and as for Wagner, voice is the most beautiful instrument created by Man.

To exclude voice from music is to exclude to roots of music.

Indeed!:tiphat:


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

^^^^^
Nah, neoshredder just maybe hasn't warmed up to operative voice as much. Me too.

Edit: I meant operatic. But I'm leaving my original typo because its funny.


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## Guest (Sep 12, 2012)

Sid James said:


> I was watching a documentary about sociopaths and one person in that said something like that these people have these 'doom laden visions.' These visions, he said, draw people in, because they 'lift us from the mundane to the metaphysical.'


With another thread in mind, I wonder if that's a definition of 'deep'? If so, it's a bit rough on optimistic, happy visions. Can't they lift us from the mundane to the metaphysical?


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

neoshredder said:


> I didn't know age had anything to do with liking Wagner. Funny that CoAG is a big Wagner fan and is only 15. I'm 29 and I don't like Wagner that much.


As you recently pointed out to me you really must read the post more carefully!
Nikola said that some people don't much like the singing part of classical music,they'd rather listen to orchestral stuff (sic).
Nothing to do with Wagner.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

moody said:


> As you recently pointed out to me you really must read the post more carefully!
> Nikola said that some people don't much like the singing part of classical music,they'd rather listen to orchestral stuff (sic).
> Nothing to do with Wagner.


Sure, I must admit that even though I love some choral work that I'm not that big fan of Operas and even though I love many of Wagner's orchestral work I was actualy never watching any of his operas from begining to the end. I simply wasn't enough interested for that, but with time, I guess I will. 
I guess that makes me 'bad' listener probably in eyes of some people, but nobody's perfect 

So, what is conclusion in the end? Is Wagner good at all?


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

nikola said:


> Sure, I must admit that even though I love some choral work that I'm not that big fan of Operas and even though I love many of Wagner's orchestral work I was actualy never watching any of his operas from begining to the end. I simply wasn't enough interested for that, but with time, I guess I will.
> I guess that makes me 'bad' listener probably in eyes of some people, but nobody's perfect
> 
> So, what is conclusion in the end? Is Wagner good at all?


George Bernard Shaw said that Wagner's music is better than it sounds.

Thus i guess it is good.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

dionisio said:


> George Bernard Shaw said that Wagner's music is better than it sounds.
> 
> Thus i guess it is good.


The best music is probably the music that sounds awful. Since Wagner sounds enough good to me, I guess he's not that great then


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

nikola said:


> Sure, I must admit that even though I love some choral work that I'm not that big fan of Operas and even though I love many of Wagner's orchestral work I was actualy never watching any of his operas from begining to the end. I simply wasn't enough interested for that, but with time, I guess I will.
> I guess that makes me 'bad' listener probably in eyes of some people, but nobody's perfect
> 
> So, what is conclusion in the end? Is Wagner good at all?


I don't comment on Wagner as I don't know his music well enough......we have some very fierce Wagnerians to do that.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Wagner is good because art is not trivial to him. Wagner's music doesn't want to stay neatly in that corner in your life that you've reserved for music. It wants to burst out from there and change everything.


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## drpraetorus (Aug 9, 2012)

Well said, Xaltotun


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I also agree with Xaltotun's over-all point, but I don't think too many of the major composers discussed on this message board considered art to be trivial, or wanted to stay neatly in anyone's corner reserved for music.


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