# Discussions with Disingenuous "Fans" (Classical or Non-Classical)



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

You have probably come across people that try to engage in a conversation with you about music that are motivated for other reasons than the music itself. For example, someone may have music knowledge tied tight to their ego, and their opinions to me mean less. 

1. Do you continue in such discussions when you come across such a person?
2. Do you enjoy such conversations with such a person?
3. Do you support the intentions of such a person?
4. How do you handle conversations with such a person?


For me, I try to end the conversation as soon as and politely as possible. 

I do not enjoy such conversations, because they are not inspiring, and eat away at my soul. 

I certainly don't support disingenuous intentions and find them to be emotionally immature, and I actually feel sorry for the "arrogant" person. 

As I said before, I try to leave the conversation as quickly and politely as possible.

I don't care if a person has extensive knowledge about music, I'd rather engage in a conversation with someone that knows little, but has a genuine love of wanting to know more and love of the music.


Your thoughts?


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## mathisdermaler (Mar 29, 2017)

The only people I talk about art to are my father and Talk Classical members and I know no one would ever come onto a nerdy classical forum just to impress nerdy classical listeners, so I don't ever have to deal with this problem. :lol:


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## apricissimus (May 15, 2013)

I always assume that when someone says they like this or that music they are being genuine. Maybe it's all a big put on, but how am I ever going to know that? I can't get inside another person's skull and know what they are really thinking. So to me it seems like the most probable thing is that people usually mean what they say.

I think that too often people impute ulterior motives onto others when really it's just a matter of a difference of opinion. I try to be open to other people's points of view. I was maybe less charitable when I was younger.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

apricissimus said:


> I always assume that when someone says they like this or that music they are being genuine. Maybe it's all a big put on, but how am I ever going to know that? I can't get inside another person's skull and know what they are really thinking. So to me it seems like the most probable thing is that people usually mean what they say.
> 
> I think that too often people impute ulterior motives onto others when really it's just a matter of a difference of opinion. I try to be open to other people's points of view. I was maybe less charitable when I was younger.


As a therapist, I'm fairly good (above average) at getting into people's heads. But aside from that, don't you ever get disingenuous "vibes" from people?


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## apricissimus (May 15, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> As a therapist, I'm fairly good (above average) at getting into people's heads. But aside from that, don't you ever get disingenuous "vibes" from people?


Sometimes, I suppose. But for me anyway it's too much effort to try to figure out what their angle is. I'd rather move on to other things.


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> As a therapist, I'm fairly good (above average) at getting into people's heads. But aside from that, don't you ever get disingenuous "vibes" from people?


Forgive my ignorance but when you describe your profession as a "therapist", is that the same thing as a psychiatrist? In answer to your original question, I try to ignore the initial vibes I get from people and judge them on their behaviour instead, particularly towards people other than me. Some of the most disingenuous / duplicitous people I've ever met have come across as being friendly and trustworthy on first meeting. Perhaps overly so, which I have often found to be a good indicator although, again, I try to disregard initial impressions until I have more information on which to base a fully formed opinion of that person.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

I can't say that I really ever encounter or have encountered people wanting to talk with me about music whom I infer have some other motive. Don't get around much, I guess. I have encountered my share of people who are just plain boring, though.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

chill782002 said:


> Forgive my ignorance but when you describe your profession as a "therapist", is that the same thing as a psychiatrist? In answer to your original question, I try to ignore the initial vibes I get from people and judge them on their behaviour instead, particularly towards people other than me. Some of the most disingenuous / duplicitous people I've ever met have come across as being friendly and trustworthy on first meeting. Perhaps overly so, which I have often found to be a good indicator although, again, I try to disregard initial impressions until I have more information on which to base a fully formed opinion of that person.


Psychiatrists prescribe medication, I'm a social worker that does mental health talk therapy. I don't prescribe meds, and typically work with a Psychiatrist.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

Captainnumber36 said:


> You have probably come across people that try to engage in a conversation with you about music that are motivated for other reasons than the music itself. For example, someone may have music knowledge tied tight to their ego, and their opinions to me mean less.
> 
> 1. Do you continue in such discussions when you come across such a person?
> 2. Do you enjoy such conversations with such a person?
> ...


It amazes me that no one has ever run into members like the ones you are describing.

I have been actively involved it these types of discussions in various forums for nine years. I ain't that smart so for me I have discovered the best strategy is to try keep it simple and ignore them.


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## Jacred (Jan 14, 2017)

I have met people who like to promote the music of their favourite composers... but I don't consider that disingenuous. I have also met people who pretend to like classical music when I show it to them... but they are just trying to make me happy. (Almost) Never do I encounter knowledgeable people who talk about music for the sake of boasting.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

People engage in discussions such as we have here for a number of reasons: to learn, to teach, to share a like or a dislike, to show how brilliant they are - or any or all at once. Human motivations are complex and trying to analyze them beyond absolute necessity is normally a waste of time. I try to respond to what people say rather than what I imagine to be their reasons for saying it, and I find it crazy-making when others don't do the same. Basically, I don't care why you're here and you don't need to care why I am. If it's an interesting subject, let's go at it.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> People engage in discussions such as we have here for a number of reasons: to learn, to teach, to share a like or a dislike, to show how brilliant they are - or any or all at once. Human motivations are complex and trying to analyze them beyond absolute necessity is normally a waste of time. I try to respond to what people say rather than what I imagine to be their reasons for saying it, and I find it crazy-making when others don't do the same. Basically, I don't care why you're here and you don't need to care why I am. If it's an interesting subject, let's go at it.


Yup. What Woodduck said.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

I don't know about anyone else, but I am just here for the cash.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> People engage in discussions such as we have here for a number of reasons: to learn, to teach, to share a like or a dislike, to show how brilliant they are - or any or all at once. Human motivations are complex and trying to analyze them beyond absolute necessity is normally a waste of time. I try to respond to what people say rather than what I imagine to be their reasons for saying it, and I find it crazy-making when others don't do the same. Basically, I don't care why you're here and you don't need to care why I am. If it's an interesting subject, let's go at it.


I am more of a feeler/sensitive/intuitive type (I believe on the Myers-Briggs test I am an INFP) and am prone to picking up on intentions perhaps moreso than persons of a different personality type.

INFP: Introverted iNtuitive Feeling Perceiving

Intentions make a big difference to how I react, and you are right, intentions are complex, no doubt.


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

What about disingenuous "Fans" who pretend to dislike particular works/composers (usually bon-bons or those who are famous for composing bon-bons) in order to fit in, seem cool, and look smart?


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## Jacred (Jan 14, 2017)

Klassik said:


> What about disingenuous "Fans" who pretend to dislike particular works/composers (usually bon-bons or those who are famous for composing bon-bons) in order to fit in, seem cool, and look smart?


Or they simply refuse to like works/composers they consider to be out of their comfort zone.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

With particularly argumentative posters, I simply tell them what I think they want to hear, and in really desperate situations will actually cut-and-paste their own words from older threads in the course of the debate. But it never works: they fight me tooth and nail no matter what I do.


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## topo morto (Apr 9, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> someone may have music knowledge tied tight to their ego, and their opinions to me mean less.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


Don't talk to anyone about music then! Everyone has their knowledge tied to their ego; everyone (to an extent) likes to help others by teaching; everyone wants to learn about the world and themselves by understanding how others' reactions differ from their own....

It's also true that people who know more might come across as having an agenda, as it ties in with their passion. But they nevertheless might know interesting things that are worth learning.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

topo morto said:


> Don't talk to anyone about music then! Everyone has their knowledge tied to their ego; everyone (to an extent) likes to help others by teaching; everyone wants to learn about the world and themselves by understanding how others' reactions differ from their own....
> 
> It's also true that people who know more might come across as having an agenda, as it ties in with their passion. But they nevertheless might know interesting things that are worth learning.


Clearly there exist people that are motivated by the love of music rather than the egoists who are showcasing knowledge rather than sharing their passion and love for music. I call this irrational ego, a healthy ego isn't compensating, and is built on truth and in harmony with the facts of reality. It is ridiculous to say I should not speak with anyone about a topic I love.

Posters here that have come off as genuine to me are Pugg, Bettina, Phillovesclassical, & Klassik. There are probably others, but those are the screen names that jump out to me.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Clearly there exist people that are motivated by the love of music rather than the egoists who are showcasing knowledge rather than sharing their passion and love for music. I call this irrational ego, a healthy ego isn't compensating, and is built on truth and in harmony with the facts of reality. It is ridiculous to say I should not speak with anyone about a topic I love.
> 
> Posters here that have come off as genuine to me are Pugg, Bettina, Phillovesclassical, & Klassik. There are probably others, but those are the screen names that jump out to me.


Thank you so much for your kind words. I'm glad that my love of music (Beethoven in particular) shines through in my posts. I'd like to add a shout-out to my friend hpowders, who is genuine, witty and passionate in his approach to music!


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Is it just me (probably is), or is this one of the more bizarre threads going?


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Strange Magic said:


> Is it just me (probably is), or is this one of the more bizarre threads going?


The idea that some classical music listeners might be arrogant and snobby? Yeah, definitely one of the more bizarre ideas I've ever come across! :lol:


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Bettina said:


> Thank you so much for your kind words. I'm glad that my love of music (Beethoven in particular) shines through in my posts. I'd like to add a shout-out to my friend hpowders, who is genuine, witty and passionate in his approach to music!


Definitely 'Powders!

Strange Magic is cool in my book as well!


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

Strange Magic said:


> Is it just me (probably is), or is this one of the more bizarre threads going?


Look around, you'll find much more bizarre ones. Much, much more bizarre ones! :lol:


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## topo morto (Apr 9, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> It is ridiculous to say I should not speak with anyone about a topic I love.


Yes. That was my point. What I was saying is that you can't split human beings into those motivated to talk by a love of music, and those with other motivations and intentions - everyone will be a mixture. So if a lack of purity bothers you, you logically block _yourself _off from talking to anyone....



Captainnumber36 said:


> Posters here that have come off as genuine to me are Pugg, Bettina, Phillovesclassical, & Klassik


...apart from those dastardly individuals who are sly and sneaky enough to conceal their true colours from you.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Strange Magic said:


> Is it just me (probably is), or is this one of the more bizarre threads going?


I'm two for two in the bizarre threads list! :lol:


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

topo morto said:


> Yes. That was my point. What I was saying is that you can't split human beings into those motivated to talk by a love of music, and those with other motivations and intentions - everyone will be a mixture. So if a lack of purity bothers you, you logically block _yourself _off from talking to anyone....
> 
> ...apart from those dastardly individuals who are sly and sneaky enough to conceal their true colours from you.


People have a mixture, true, but people have a general way of acting, and those who lean towards the genuine feel bad and tend to apologize if they act otherwise in my experience.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Captainnumber36 said:


> As a therapist, I'm fairly good (above average) at getting into people's heads.


Why I don´t like to go to therapy.


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## topo morto (Apr 9, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> People have a mixture, true, but people have a general way of acting, and those who lean towards the genuine feel bad and tend to apologize if they act otherwise in my experience.


Naah, the apologisers are the manipulative b*stards.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Bettina said:


> The idea that some classical music listeners might be arrogant and snobby? Yeah, definitely one of the more bizarre ideas I've ever come across! :lol:


Definitely not a bizarre idea--it's actually a familiar situation for just about everyone; a commonplace. What I find bizarre is to have a whole thread about it here: "Some people are mean, some are stupid, some are liars; how do you deal with mean, or stupid, or arrogant or snobby people?" Area 51 or Community Forum maybe, is the better venue, think I.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Strange Magic said:


> Area 51 or Community Forum maybe, is the better venue, think I.


I'm finding the topic a little squirm inducing too. I know I for one feel like my writing style can get pretentious sounding. I'm not very skilled at writing with clarity, so it gets adverb heavy and full of polysyllabic words when none are needed, but on the other hand that's the kind of post I like to read too. Should we just say, "Yeah man, that Ludwig Van rocks!" That would get old fast.

[I had left this forum for about six months due to my own mild mental health struggles and I'm feeling a little fragile yet. So I may be reading way too much into things.]


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Weston said:


> I'm finding the topic a little squirm inducing too. I know I for one feel like my writing style can get pretentious sounding.


That's actually never happened, imo--your posts always seem honest and constructive.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

^Awww - thanks! It's hard for me to tell.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Weston said:


> I'm finding the topic a little squirm inducing too. I know I for one feel like my writing style can get pretentious sounding. I'm not very skilled at writing with clarity, so it gets adverb heavy and full of polysyllabic words when none are needed, but on the other hand that's the kind of post I like to read too. Should we just say, "Yeah man, that Ludwig Van rocks!" That would get old fast.
> 
> [I had left this forum for about six months due to my own mild mental health struggles and I'm feeling a little fragile yet. So I may be reading way too much into things.]


It's not language as much as intention. You can certainly speak "properly" and with decorum, such as Strange Magic does, and completely come off as genuine.


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## mathisdermaler (Mar 29, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I am more of a feeler/sensitive/intuitive type (I believe on the Myers-Briggs test I am an INFP) and am prone to picking up on intentions perhaps moreso than persons of a different personality type.
> 
> INFP: Introverted iNtuitive Feeling Perceiving
> 
> Intentions make a big difference to how I react, and you are right, intentions are complex, no doubt.


I'm the same type. I don't know if the test is really meaningful at all but interesting nonetheless :lol: Maybe it is more common among classical listeners


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I'm not sure I've felt that others were disingenuous here. I know it's frightfully easy to misinterpret people's words on forums. I know many members have felt others did not understand certain posts, and people can get frustrated when misunderstandings occur. If I feel someone's post is strange or if I'm not sure I understand the intent, I will generally ask for clarification rather than assume I know what was intended.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

mmsbls said:


> I'm not sure I've felt that others were disingenuous here. I know it's frightfully easy to misinterpret people's words on forums. I know many members have felt others did not understand certain posts, and people can get frustrated when misunderstandings occur. If I feel someone's post is strange or if I'm not sure I understand the intent, I will generally ask for clarification rather than assume I know what was intended.


I wasn't really critiquing anyone on these forums, moreso "the outsiders" to TC. :lol:


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> "the outsiders" to TC. :lol:


Bunch of jerks, in my opinion.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I suffer fools very gladly. Not everyone knows what you know. (Some people even know more!) Not everyone shares your taste, or your view of the world. But discussion is always possible at the level of the people involved. If I'm tempted to greet a statement with a knowing smirk, I keep it inside (even if do think the Myers-Briggs scale is a crock. ). Even if I recognize ulterior motives, there is no need to make a big deal about it, unless it's something that directly affects my life, or civilization in an adverse way. Everyone has his or her motives.


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## apricissimus (May 15, 2013)

When people say things like "People who like X are often just pretending so they can seem cool or sophisticated or hip," what they probably really mean is, "I don't like X, so I assume no one else could possibly like X either."


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

MarkW said:


> I suffer fools very gladly. Not everyone knows what you know. (Some people even know more!) Not everyone shares your taste, or your view of the world. But discussion is always possible at the level of the people involved. If I'm tempted to greet a statement with a knowing smirk, I keep it inside (even if do think the Myers-Briggs scale is a crock. ). Even if I recognize ulterior motives, there is no need to make a big deal about it, unless it's something that directly affects my life, or civilization in an adverse way. Everyone has his or her motives.


That is fine, I just like to feel inspired by my conversations, and people that speak about music from any standpoint but the love and passion for music does not inspire me. It used to eat away at me, but I've grown stronger over that. I'd really just not carry on a conversation with such people for an extended period, even if they have infinite wisdom and knowledge to share.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

I run into many disingenuous fans in college towns, at any classical music concert. 

Their expressions of enthusiasm, many of them, are not meant to share enthusiasm, as one might think, but to demonstrate to you and the world that they are cultured, knowledgeable, and specially so. They will express learned enthusiasm for esoteric works and disdain the popular war horses. They will notice little esoteric attributes of the music and comment on them, while deliberately staying away from expressing larger more obvious reactions. 

"That the chord progressions constitute musical continuity and comprehensibility frees the individual parts from the necessity to take account of aspects that would be indispensable in composition consisting of interval sequences." 

Versus, 

"oh how achingly beautiful".

I feel like saying "if I agree that you are smarter and more experienced than me will you be able to shut up?" But I don't. I just smile knowingly and enjoy the music the ways I know how to.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

JeffD said:


> "That the chord progressions constitute musical continuity and comprehensibility frees the individual parts from the necessity to take account of aspects that would be indispensable in composition consisting of interval sequences."


Gawd....what drivel, dreck....sounds like pseudo-music critic BS. Whenever I hear someone come on with that crap, I usually respond something like - <<yeh, but she missed the high D, the A natural was too sharp, and the 3rd horn was too loud..>> whether this occurred or not doesn't matter - the pompous know-it-all has no idea whatever...


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

apricissimus said:


> When people say things like "People who like X are often just pretending so they can seem cool or sophisticated or hip," what they probably really mean is, "I don't like X, so I assume no one else could possibly like X either."


They might mean that. Or they might mean that some people pretend to like things perceived to be cool in order to appear cool themselves. You've never met anyone like that?


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

EdwardBast said:


> They might mean that. Or they might mean that some people pretend to like things perceived to be cool in order to appear cool themselves. You've never met anyone like that?


Years ago, on a different music forum, I encountered a guy who came on like that, re Schoenberg, Berg, Webern, etc.
His premise was that NOBODY could possibly like such composers, because there was no melody, harmony, or whistle-able tunes - therefore the music was, de facto - terrible, and anybody who claimed to like it was nothing but a charlatan, was putting us on, and masquerading as some sort of phony sophisticate. Liking Schoenberg meant that you were just trying to look cool and sophisticated, when in reality, you HAD to hate such music...
yes, the guy was really a pretentious jerk!! We certainly got some good laughs on him...:lol::lol:


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## apricissimus (May 15, 2013)

EdwardBast said:


> They might mean that. Or they might mean that some people pretend to like things perceived to be cool in order to appear cool themselves. You've never met anyone like that?


I don't know. Maybe? I'm not sure how I would ascertain that.

Honestly, I think when people say they like something it's because they actually like it, and it's not for me to judge whether their interest is genuine or pure enough or whatever.


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## David OByrne (Dec 1, 2016)

EdwardBast said:


> They might mean that. Or they might mean that some people pretend to like things perceived to be cool in order to appear cool themselves. You've never met anyone like that?


So you're saying that people purposefully go out of their way to waste their own time listening and supporting music they actually dislike, to appear "cool" to themselves? 

That sounds illogical to me


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

David OByrne said:


> So you're saying that people purposefully go out of their way to waste their own time listening and supporting music they actually dislike, to appear "cool" to themselves?
> 
> That sounds illogical to me


Doesn't it though.


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## CypressWillow (Apr 2, 2013)

Weston said:


> [I had left this forum for about six months due to my own mild mental health struggles and I'm feeling a little fragile yet. So I may be reading way too much into things.]


Welcome back, Weston, I'm glad to see you again and hope things continue to improve for you.


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## Minor Sixthist (Apr 21, 2017)

arpeggio said:


> It amazes me that no one has ever run into members like the ones you are describing.
> 
> I have been actively involved it these types of discussions in various forums for nine years. I ain't that smart so for me I have discovered the best strategy is to try keep it simple and ignore them.


Agreed... to me it must be as simple as this. Though I don't think I can always tell if people are being genuine in discussing what they love, if people blatantly use a niche interest like classical music as an ego booster or for some ulterior motive, it's hard to have a genuine and engaged discussion with them... and that takes some subjective perspective as opposed to just objective (you could go to the moon listing facts and arguments you've found online or in your reading, but that is no substitute for a true fervor for the music you enjoy.)


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> That is fine, I just like to feel inspired by my conversations, and people that speak about music from any standpoint but the love and passion for music does not inspire me. It used to eat away at me, but I've grown stronger over that. I'd really just not carry on a conversation with such people for an extended period, even if they have infinite wisdom and knowledge to share.


I feel the opposite. It's nice to share passions with friends, but posts made by people who are knowledgeable and who have explored intellectually some of the issues that music raises, that's much more interesting because I might learn new stuff.

If people love and feel passionate about a composer or a composition or a performer, that's nice for them, but I think it's egoistic of them to broadcast it, as if their passion is something everyone should be interested in.

Inspiration doesn't come from someone just sounding off about their passions, on the contrary, I find nothing more boring. For me inspiration comes from someone painting a picture of the music which shows it in a new and stimulating light, someone who suggests new avenues to explore.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> You have probably come across people that try to engage in a conversation with you about music that are motivated for other reasons than the music itself. For example, someone may have music knowledge tied tight to their ego, and their opinions to me mean less.
> 
> 1. Do you continue in such discussions when you come across such a person?
> 2. Do you enjoy such conversations with such a person?
> ...


I thought this post was passive aggressive and defensively self aggransizing and cowardly. You're presenting yourself as someone who is more authentic and mature than your target, but you don't say who your target is to give him the chance to respond. Anyway it may be more sensitive to have it out with him or her in a private way, rather than offer us all a spectacle.



Captainnumber36 said:


> I don't care if a person has extensive knowledge about music, I'd rather engage in a conversation with someone that knows little, but has a genuine love of wanting to know more and love of the music.
> 
> Your thoughts?


There's a profound lack of intellectual curiosity here, and it's as if you want to suggest that it's a good thing! A mature thing! A humble and authentic thing!


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## Minor Sixthist (Apr 21, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> I feel the opposite. But posts made by people who are knowledgeable and who have explored intellectually some of the issues that music raises, that's much more intereting because I might learn new stuff.
> 
> If people love and feel passionate about a composer or a composition or a performer, that's nice for them, but I think it's egoistic of them to share it.
> 
> Inspiration doesn't come from someone just sounding off about their passions,on the contrary, I find nothing more boring. For me inspiration comes from someone painting a picture of the music which shows it in a new and stimulating light, someone who suggests new avenues to explore.


I don't think Captain was expressing support for people who speak solely ABOUT their passion - but rather people who, no matter what they are speaking about, are passionate about it, and use that passion as motivation as opposed to, say, ego. What I mean is, I don't think he would agree whatsoever that people who offer new and interesting pieces of information and intellectual propositions are the 'disingenuous' people he brought up originally. I think the point was, by all means, have intellectual discussions (if everyone just gushed about their love for music, you're right, it doesn't have distinct benefits)... but have those discussions because you care about what you're saying, not because you want to sound lofty or important.

In addition, I don't find people expressing their passion egotistical at all... perhaps unable to articulate in order to contribute something to the people around them, but I would disagree that there's anything egotistical there. On the contrary, I find expressing plain passion far less egocentric than expressing plain facts and figures in the clear absence of passion.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> I feel the opposite. But posts made by people who are knowledgeable and who have explored intellectually some of the issues that music raises, that's much more intereting because I might learn new stuff.
> 
> If people love and feel passionate about a composer or a composition or a performer, that's nice for them, but I think it's egoistic of them to share it.
> 
> Inspiration doesn't come from someone just sounding off about their passions,on the contrary, I find nothing more boring. For me inspiration comes from someone painting a picture of the music which shows it in a new and stimulating light, someone who suggests new avenues to explore.


I think it is erroneous to believe that having knowledge and genuine love and passion are mutually exclusive as your post implies. Certainly there are several who were genuinely in love with music and quite knowledgeable but are not arrogant? I would not consider Beethoven to be arrogant, he was just so MADLY in love with music and life that he became very bitter towards others not on his level. He couldn't help it! There is a difference there in my book.

I don't understand how it is egotistical for a person sharing their love of a composer or composition?


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Minor Sixthist said:


> I don't think Captain was expressing support for people who speak solely ABOUT their passion - but rather people who, no matter what they are speaking about, are passionate about it, and use that passion as motivation as opposed to, say, ego. What I mean is, I don't think he would disagree whatsoever that people who offer new and interesting pieces of information and intellectual propositions are the 'disingenuous' people he brought up originally. I think the point was, by all means, have intellectual discussions (if everyone just gushed about their love for music, you're right, it doesn't have distinct benefits)... but have those discussions because you care about what you're saying, not because you want to sound lofty or important.
> 
> In addition, I don't find people expressing their passion egotistical at all... perhaps unable to articulate in order to contribute something to the people around them, but I would disagree that there's anything egotistical there. On the contrary, I find expressing plain passion far less egocentric than expressing plain facts and figures in the clear absence of passion.


Well stated and I'll confirm you have understood me correctly.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> I thought this post was passive aggressive and defensively self aggransizing and cowardly. You're presenting yourself as someone who is more authentic and mature than your target, but you don't say who your target is to give him the chance to respond. Anyway it may be more sensitive to have it out with him or her in a private way, rather than offer us all a spectacle.
> 
> There's a profound lack of intellectual curiosity here, and it's as if you want to suggest that it's a good thing! A mature thing! A humble and authentic thing!


See my last post, and Minor Sixthist's post.


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## Gradeaundera (Jun 30, 2016)

Is this your first time on the internet? :lol:


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Gradeaundera said:


> Is this your first time on the internet? :lol:


As I said, I wasn't really referencing anyone on this forum, but the outsiders to TC. I'm a believer in the greatness of the human spirit and the ability for everyone to achieve it, so I start threads that are directed towards our emotionality in efforts to get people thinking about it.

It's the therapist in me, I love music (Composing & Performing) and therapy so much, they are my passions in life. These are issues I care very deeply about.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

Mandryka said:


> I thought this post was passive aggressive and defensively self aggransizing and cowardly. You're presenting yourself as someone who is more authentic and mature than your target, but you don't say who your target is to give him the chance to respond. Anyway it may be more sensitive to have it out with him or her in a private way, rather than offer us all a spectacle.


I have been accused of the same thing so many times I have lost count. I have also been accused of being overly sensitive and elitist.

It is also difficult to call out individuals. I know of people who have in the past. They were found to be violating the TOS and penalized by the moderators. One notable ex-member was fired as a moderator. I got a warning once for confronting a difficult member. I actually recall a few times a difficult member would sucker punch another member into saying something critical that would get the other member into trouble.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

My very strong feeling that this thread is bizarre, does not belong here, and belongs in Community Forum--if even there--is being vindicated with almost every post. I attempt to take posters at face value, and hold my private opinions (should they be at variance) in private.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Strange Magic said:


> My very strong feeling that this thread is bizarre, does not belong here, and belongs in Community Forum--if even there--is being vindicated with almost every post. I attempt to take posters at face value, and hold my private opinions (should they be at variance) in private.


One advantage of having the thread in the Community Forum would be that it wouldn't be inappropriate to post non-classical music. This thread could benefit from a little Bobby McFerrin, imo.


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## Rosie (Jul 4, 2016)

Captainnumber36 said:


> You have probably come across people that try to engage in a conversation with you about music that are motivated for other reasons than the music itself. For example, someone may have music knowledge tied tight to their ego, and their opinions to me mean less.
> 
> 1. Do you continue in such discussions when you come across such a person?
> 2. Do you enjoy such conversations with such a person?
> ...


How far does this extend for you, only to music you like or music other people like, that you don't like too?


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

David OByrne said:


> So you're saying that people purposefully go out of their way to waste their own time listening and supporting music they actually dislike, to appear "cool" to themselves?
> 
> That sounds illogical to me


Well of course it's illogical! But you are assuming such people actually spend significant time "listening and supporting." And yes, of course there are some people like this.

"To appear cool to themselves?" Seriously? Now that sounds disingenuous! To others, obviously.



apricissimus said:


> I don't know. Maybe? I'm not sure how I would ascertain that.
> 
> Honestly, I think when people say they like something it's because they actually like it, and it's not for me to judge whether their interest is genuine or pure enough or whatever.


You would ascertain that by knowing them. 

Yes, when people say they like something it is usually because they do. This character flaw is more prevalent in the young.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

I often engage in lengthy smear campaigns of particular albums I want to purchase in the hopes of driving down prices from online sellers. I'm not sure it's ever worked, but I figure it's worth the try.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Rosie said:


> How far does this extend for you, only to music you like or music other people like, that you don't like too?


Sure, it can extend to music I dislike as well!


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Strange Magic said:


> My very strong feeling that this thread is bizarre, does not belong here, and belongs in Community Forum--if even there--is being vindicated with almost every post. I attempt to take posters at face value, and hold my private opinions (should they be at variance) in private.


As I keep saying, I wasn't calling out anyone on this forum, it's TC member's interactions out in the real world that I was wanting to discuss on.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Blancrocher said:


> I often engage in lengthy smear campaigns of particular albums I want to purchase in the hopes of driving down prices from online sellers. I'm not sure it's ever worked, but I figure it's worth the try.


:lol: I couldn't do that, but I bet my dad would do something like that. As my parents always say, I would give money away if I could. :lol:


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Posters here that have come off as genuine to me are Pugg, Bettina, Phillovesclassical, & Klassik. There are probably others, but those are the screen names that jump out to me.


Perhaps, Captain, if you had stated in your initial post that you referred only to face-to-face interactions with others, and excluded interactions with TC members, we would not be where we are.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Strange Magic said:


> Perhaps, Captain, if you had stated in your initial post that you referred only to face-to-face interactions with others, and excluded interactions with TC members, we would not be where we are.


Nah. We would probably be here anyway. People will take personal offense no matter what you try to avoid it.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

JAS said:


> Nah. We would probably be here anyway. People will take personal offense no matter what you try to avoid it.


Exactly. Which is why I've regarded it as a bizarre thread from the get-go. Born under a Bad Sign.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Strange Magic said:


> Exactly. Which is why I've regarded it as a bizarre thread from the get-go. Born under a Bad Sign.


It's been down since it began to crawl.


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## Minor Sixthist (Apr 21, 2017)

Klassik said:


> Look around, you'll find much more bizarre ones. Much, much more bizarre ones! :lol:


What? I've never come across anything but pure innocence on this forum.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Strange Magic said:


> Exactly. Which is why I've regarded it as a bizarre thread from the get-go. Born under a Bad Sign.


Perhaps we could elevate it by going all "Meta" and examining the question of whether or not the OP is being disingenuous in creating the thread about people being disingenuous, or if we have been disingenuous in making our posts. It might not actually help, but when in doubt, obfuscate!


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

JAS said:


> Perhaps we could elevate it by going all "Meta" and examining the question of whether or not the OP is being disingenuous in creating the thread about people being disingenuous, or if we have been disingenuous in making our posts. It might not actually help, but when in doubt, obfuscate!


I like it!  :lol:


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Strange Magic said:


> Perhaps, Captain, if you had stated in your initial post that you referred only to face-to-face interactions with others, and excluded interactions with TC members, we would not be where we are.


That post you quoted was me more giving shout outs to some posters that have stood out to me, not that anyone here has stood out as disingenuous.


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

Minor Sixthist said:


> What? I've never come across anything but pure innocence on this forum.




:devil:

:angel:


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I like it!  :lol:


You probably should not read too much into it . . . I may or may not have really meant it.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

JAS said:


> You probably should not read too much into it . . . I may or may not have really meant it.


Zing! Did it again!


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Worms. A can of worms. Now they're all over and won't go back into the can .


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Blancrocher said:


> I often engage in lengthy smear campaigns of particular albums I want to purchase in the hopes of driving down prices from online sellers. I'm not sure it's ever worked, but I figure it's worth the try.


I know three online sellers of books and music who are old guys living on small incomes and selling out of their apartments. One of them is me.

Now I know why I can no longer make enough to survive.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I know three online sellers of books and music who are old guys living on small incomes and selling out of their apartments. One of them is me.
> 
> Now I know why I can no longer make enough to survive.


If it makes you feel any better, I also give exaggerated praise to recordings I'm trying to sell.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Blancrocher said:


> If it makes you feel any better, I also give exaggerated praise to recordings I'm trying to sell.


I'll feel better if you'll give exaggerated praise to the ones I'm selling.


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## Rosie (Jul 4, 2016)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Sure, it can extend to music I dislike as well!


So you'll let people be enthusiastic about music that you completely hate? well that is good to hear


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

I think the subject itself, disingenuous enthusiasm meant to impress, is bigger than this forum. But its a topic that is best discussed in its typical examples. And certainly music qualifies, though I have bumped into folks like this in every subject or hobby I have an interest in.

To specifically address Mandryka, I don't have any problem with someone having and expressing an enthusiasm for technical expert details others might not follow. Quite the opposite, I am a big nerd and love big nerds. I love the details. I love an intellectual exploration of just about anything I am interested in. And... I don't think an honestly expressed enthusiasm is anti-intellectual. (I mean unless it is an enthusiasm for the anti-intellectual.  )

Its the disingenuousness that irks. Going to the details _with no other motive but to impress_. If you love something truly and can say why, that is great. And if that "why" includes some arcane details that you love, for real, I am with you all the way.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

Other than concerts in college towns, this happens a lot between young couples leaving a performance that was one of their first five or six dates together. "Amazing counterpoint in that second movement..."

By the tenth date what you overhear is more like, "that was so great I don't feel like going straight home, I want to keep the feelings with me a little longer. Wanna stop at the diner?"


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## Guest (Jun 25, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> You have probably come across people that try to engage in a conversation with you about music that are motivated for other reasons than the music itself. For example, someone may have music knowledge tied tight to their ego, [...]
> 
> Your thoughts?


My thoughts are that I'm not sure I understand what you are asking. That is, without an example to work on, I'm not sure what a 'disingenuous fan' looks like (or rather, what they read like, on an internet forum).


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## topo morto (Apr 9, 2017)

MacLeod said:


> My thoughts are that I'm not sure I understand what you are asking. That is, without an example to work on, I'm not sure what a 'disingenuous fan' looks like.


Yes. Stories please (or it didn't happen).


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

MacLeod said:


> My thoughts are that I'm not sure I understand what you are asking. That is, without an example to work on, I'm not sure what a 'disingenuous fan' looks like (or rather, what they read like, on an internet forum).


Anyone that speaks about music from the motivation other than the genuine interest for it.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

MacLeod said:


> My thoughts are that I'm not sure I understand what you are asking. That is, without *an example to work on*, I'm not sure what a 'disingenuous fan' looks like (or rather, what they read like, on an internet forum).


I have a strange one. When visiting my hometown of Pittsburgh over the Christmas holidays some years back I stopped at the house of an old friend whose whole family is congenitally tone deaf, although he himself was an excellent drummer in the prog rock vein. Upon discovering I was then completing my doctoral work in musicology, his brother, a well-known journalist working for the NY Times, began pumping me for opinions and information on the topic: Mozart versus Beethoven, which he had introduced out of the blue and apropos of nothing. I suspected, and he then forthrightly confirmed, that he was looking for little tidbits he could use at cocktail parties if the conversation turned to music. So, apparently, he was studying to be a disingenuous classical music fan. I have no idea whether the information proved useful or which composer he decided to favor if it ever came up.


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## topo morto (Apr 9, 2017)

EdwardBast said:


> I have a strange one. When visiting my hometown of Pittsburgh over the Christmas holidays some years back I stopped at the house of an old friend whose whole family is congenitally tone deaf, although he himself was an excellent drummer in the prog rock vein. Upon discovering I was then completing my doctoral work in musicology, his brother, a well-known journalist working for the NY Times, began pumping me for opinions and information on the topic: Mozart versus Beethoven, which he had introduced out of the blue and apropos of nothing. I suspected, and he then forthrightly confirmed, that he was looking for little tidbits he could use at cocktail parties if the conversation turned to music. So, apparently, he was studying to be a disingenuous classical music fan. I have no idea whether the information proved useful or which composer he decided to favor if it ever came up.


Well now I'm outraged. That is so _not genuine_. No love at all there.



Captainnumber36 said:


> Anyone that speaks about music from the motivation other than the genuine interest for it.


But please tell us examples of this behavior you've experienced (Like the one above!) so we can share your sadness.

I've never met such an out-and-out notgenuineperson, so I feel left out.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Captainnumber36 said:


> someone may have music knowledge tied tight to their ego,


but most time its hard to tell such person from others.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Okay, _now_ I understand the intent of this thread I think.

This disingenuosness and its appearance runs throughout our society. My closest friend and I would travel to art galleries and make fun of the ridiculous _art speak_ we found in artist's statements, descriptions of works, etc. What a load of faux-academic double talk! We found it so egregious when we opened an art gallery together we wanted to make it an art-speak free zone. But we found a little of that jargon is required to enable us to speak about art at all. And ever in my own mind was Kurt Vonnegut's alleged quote, "We are what we pretend to be."

So our logo or subtitle was "Art Without Pretense (Well, okay, maybe a _little_ pretense)" It seemed to come off as a lot more welcoming, self effacing, and less intimidating to everyone -- we hoped. We managed to stay open for three years before East Nashville became the mecca of hipness it is today, driving the rent way up, so we must have done something right.

So I think talking about art, music or literature can be a balancing act. I tend to give everyone the benefit of the doubt as long as they don't go all post modern jargon on me.


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Posters here that have come off as genuine to me are Pugg, Bettina, Phillovesclassical, & Klassik. There are probably others, but those are the screen names that jump out to me.


No offence intended, but I'm not entirely sure that singling out individual posters as "genuine" is productive as it could be interpreted as saying that you might consider those not named as not "genuine". However, I'm sure that wasn't your intention, just saying that it could be taken that way.


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## Guest (Jun 25, 2017)

chill782002 said:


> you might consider those not named as not "genuine".


Well I'm certainly not genuine, that's for sure.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

MacLeod said:


> Well I'm certainly not genuine, that's for sure.


Are you sincerely not genuine, or are you just saying that? :lol:


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

The key is sincerity. If you can fake that you got it made.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

I fully agree with those who try to make a distinction between "head" music and "heart" music. Or in other terms, music that appeals primarily to the mind and music that appeals primarily to the body.

It is not a clear, crisp distinction of course. But relevant here is that one can love head music with as much enthusiasm as heart music, and in describing why might actually have to indulge some details, some "art speak". As long as the enthusiasm is genuine. 

"Wow, did you catch that fugue? Crazy clever wasn't it? Even when you listen to it as a fugue you don't lose the whole thing, you can see the beams without losing the architecture. Ohhh man. I need to hear it again."


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