# So, Stradivariuses Suck



## Polednice

A study has recently shown that, in all likelihood, Stradivariuses are nothing special because no one can tell the difference between one and a new violin in controlled trials (in fact, in some cases the new violins are preferred). It doesn't surprise me - it's a familiar phenomenon with food and clothes and all sorts of other luxury items where it's just the label and price-tag that lead us to believe something is qualitatively better.

I love it when a cherished illusion is smashed.


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## emiellucifuge

How dare you!


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## Trout

I believe it is supposed to be 'Stradivarii'.


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## Crudblud

You win this time, Vampire Huxley Pig!


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## Polednice

Trout said:


> I believe it is supposed to be 'Stradivarii'.


It doesn't matter any more now that they're scrap wood.


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## elgar's ghost

At least acoustic violins still LOOK the same, whatever their age and however good they are to play. Since the 70s there have been so many plug-ugly electric guitars and basses. Anyone who plays one of those stoopid pointy guitars so beloved of death-metallers or one of those poncey headless Steinbergs should be strung up high and left to the buzzards.


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## Ukko

Polednice said:


> A study has recently shown that, in all likelihood, Stradivariuses are nothing special because no one can tell the difference between one and a new violin in controlled trials (in fact, in some cases the new violins are preferred). It doesn't surprise me - it's a familiar phenomenon with food and clothes and all sorts of other luxury items where it's just the label and price-tag that lead us to believe something is qualitatively better.
> 
> I love it when a cherished illusion is smashed.


Those trials must have been conducted using panels composed of heavy metal fans and pneumatic drill operators.


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## emiellucifuge

We are liberating ourselves


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## Polednice

Hilltroll72 said:


> Those trials must have been conducted using panels composed of heavy metal fans and pneumatic drill operators.


Professional violinists actually.


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## Sator

Now expect some "expert" to say "people must be paying millions of these works of art for some reason, and that reason is because they produce a superior emotional response that can't be quantified by some clinical blind testing. Therefore they are superior". :devil:

The media will then report it by saying "although yet another blind study has concluded that blinded listeners often prefer a modern violin to a Strad, an expert has come forward stating that these studies fail to capture the emotional essence of these works of art for which people pay millions for their unchallenged spiritual superiority".

You could conduct these blinded studies till the cows come home and they won't drop in price.


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## Huilunsoittaja

Well, I guess it's good to know that the secret of the Stradivarius violins has been found by violin makers so that it's not impossible to imitate or even surpass them. The ones out there are still gorgeous, depending on the player.


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## SPR

*Strad: does it matter?*

Seems many really can't tell the difference when put to a double blind test...

http://www.npr.org/blogs/deceptivec...olin-test-can-you-pick-the-strad?sc=17&f=1001


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## Couchie

I don't really think anybody plops down $2,000,000 for one of these things thinking they're getting an additional $1,999,000 in sound quality over a $1000 violin. It's a rare, old, collectors item that happens to also sound nice. People as much for more for old **** all the time that unlike a voilin doesn't even serve a functional purpose other than to merely possess it.


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## Sid James

No wonder this was the result, an interesting article. Maybe what it says amongst other things that makers of stringed instruments today are no less fine than they were centuries ago. They can match the best of the best of the times of old.

Another related issue is that in some cases (maybe many, I'm unsure) these ancient violins have been changed a lot. They are not really like they originally were. Eg. the bridge widened, stuff like that. Of course, depending on what sound a violinist wants, many of them have metal strings now.

It may be that the one in the museum case at the head of the article you posted would sound different if taken out and played? I mean different to modern violins?

But the strads that are out there now and have been in use for ages are not museum pieces, they're living instruments, every generation of violinists and craftsmen have changed them to suit their needs, the needs of their modern age. They are passed down, eg. Yo-yo Ma's instrument used to belong to Jacqueline du Pre, if I remember correctly. He said he feels her hand guiding him when he plays her calling card, the Elgar concerto. Which brings another element here, the history of each of these instruments is amazing, if only just they could talk to us and tell their unique stories!...


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## jurianbai

stop cutting tree for your ego ears. use plastic!


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## Rasa

Down with trees, I will never play plastic!


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## Lunasong

The article does not mention another variable, the bow...


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## Vaneyes

I doubt if world-class players were used in this study. Please correct, if so.

There's an old saying, "It's the indian, not the bow 'n arrow." IOW I'm confident a concert soloist or a principal in a top tier orchestra could get more out of a Strad than the "competent" people probably utilized in this study.

It's the nuance. LOL


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## Polednice

I don't have the names of the study participants, I just know that they had been "playing the violin professionally from between 16 - 61 years", so they weren't laymen.


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## Philip

i like how in the comments everyone got it right... :lol:


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## kv466

Ok, so here's the deal.

I've got a top-of-the-line Gibson and Taylor; each going for $2500 and $3000, respectively. Still, I don't use those exclusively and when I strum all night I bust out my Ibanez that cost me $178.00 back in '92. Have you ever seen the guitar Willie Nelson uses? That thing has holes in it! I'm an avid drummer and while I recognize the workmanship and fine quality woods that go into the manufacturing of a brand new DW or Gretch,...I can make a 60's Ludwig sound even better and an 80's Tama blow them away...why? Many factors. Care. Tuning. The way you set the heads. Lots of things. 

So,...sure, the classic violin of all time may or may not be all it has been made out to be but if someone wants to play it,...it's their choice. All I'm saying is that it doesn't matter and it is all relative because I would still rather hear a crappy $50 Sam Ash beginner's violin played by Artur Grumiaux than an SV played by a novice. 

In the end,...who gives a damn? Is a Ferrari really worth a half a million? Cost and worth.


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## Vaneyes

kv466 said:


> In the end,...who gives a damn? Is a Ferrari really worth a half a million? Cost and worth.


I do. Schumacher would make it sing, while Joe Schmuck would grind coffee.


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## Oskaar

I am a potter.... What About a violin in ceramics?


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## Manxfeeder

oskaar said:


> I am a potter.... What About a violin in ceramics?


I don't know! How about Legos?


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## moody

kv466 said:


> Ok, so here's the deal.
> 
> I've got a top-of-the-line Gibson and Taylor; each going for $2500 and $3000, respectively. Still, I don't use those exclusively and when I strum all night I bust out my Ibanez that cost me $178.00 back in '92. Have you ever seen the guitar Willie Nelson uses? That thing has holes in it! I'm an avid drummer and while I recognize the workmanship and fine quality woods that go into the manufacturing of a brand new DW or Gretch,...I can make a 60's Ludwig sound even better and an 80's Tama blow them away...why? Many factors. Care. Tuning. The way you set the heads. Lots of things.
> 
> So,...sure, the classic violin of all time may or may not be all it has been made out to be but if someone wants to play it,...it's their choice. All I'm saying is that it doesn't matter and it is all relative because I would still rather hear a crappy $50 Sam Ash beginner's violin played by Artur Grumiaux than an SV played by a novice.
> 
> In the end,...who gives a damn? Is a Ferrari really worth a half a million? Cost and worth.


I like Willie Nelson, he's a good old boy from Texas---bet he uses a Strad.


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## moody

The most amazing tone I've ever heard is Fritz Kreislerclosely followed by Mischa Elman . Question is would they have been the same on an "ordinary" fiddle? But we will never know will we?


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## Lenfer

Mabye these people don't have the best ears? However I am happy to take any unloved antique musical instruments for a small fee of course. :devil:


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## Oskaar

Maybe the best violinists *feel* that it is bether. Playing on a 300 years old instrument must have a psychological effect, and maybe its giving more dedication=bether performances and listening experiences. Never underestimate the psychological effect!


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## Polednice

oskaar said:


> Maybe the best violinists *feel* that it is bether. Playing on a 300 years old instrument must have a psychological effect, and maybe its giving more dedication=bether performances and listening experiences. Never underestimate the psychological effect!


Yes, I think such a musical 'placebo' effect is very likely. As is quite clearly stated in the article and the research, the intention of the undertaking was not to completely remove all value from Strads and other famous makes. As some have already rightly pointed out, the historical and sentimental worth is reason enough for them to be treasured. It was more a curious study to prove that there is nothing intrinsic to the violins themselves - no special secret that modern manufacturers are missing out on - that causes the violin to play better. It is all in the head, and that's just fine and dandy.


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## Lenfer

Don't forget some people pay a lot of money for things that celebrities have touched or used. I'm sure many famous violinists have used those violins at some point. Think of all the wagnerians on *TC* that would pay top dollar for *Wagners* hat.


(spear not included)​


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## Oskaar

But what is there fore a third person to enjoy from Wagners hat... If I had Picassos pottery wheel, I am sure I would make better jugs...(Yes, he was a potter also)(And yes, I am a potter)(And yes, I am joking a bit)


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## Manxfeeder

moody said:


> I like Willie Nelson, he's a good old boy from Texas---bet he uses a Strad.


Ha! But I don't think anybody would nickname a Strad Trigger. I know he values his beat-up Martin, but I think it's more for its sentimental value; it has about a million of his friends' signatures on it.


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## Lenfer

oskaar said:


> But what is there fore a third person to enjoy from Wagners hat... If I had Picassos pottery wheel, I am sure I would make better jugs...(Yes, he was a potter also)(And yes, I am a potter)(And yes, I am joking a bit)


Have you seen *Harry Potter*?






I haven't seen the whole film but I believe *Wagner's* hat may have similar magical powers. :lol:

I'd like to see your pottery photos perhaps?


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## Oskaar

Lenfer said:


> I'd like to see your pottery photos perhaps?


I have been quite inactive the last seven years due to personal problems.. But here are some photoes:


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## Lenfer

oskaar said:


> I have been quite inactive the last seven years due to personal problems.. But here are some photoes:


There is no need to explain yourself *Oskaar* but I have read something in one of your previous posts. Someone very close to me may share some of those problems so you have my sympathies. Your work is however really very good thank you for uploading and so quickly.


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## Oskaar

I will share photoes as soon I make new stuff!


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## Chi_townPhilly

Polednice said:


> *So, Stradivariuses Suck*


As if.


Polednice said:


> I love it when a cherished illusion is smashed.


This "illusion-smashing" is really nothing new to experienced observers of the scene. At irregular but persistent intervals, we read about the latest test that claims to comprehensively illustrate that Strad and del Jesù violins are nothing special. As early as sometime in the '70s, I read about some manner of sonic-spectral analysis that argued that there was little or no distinction. In spite of this, the violins of the Cremonese masters continue to be in the highest demand among collectors and top-flight virtuosi. I suspect that this most recent test [sponsored by a _modern-instrument-maker(?!)_] will have as much impact on the desirability of the Strads & Guarneris as all of the previous ones...


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## Polednice

Chi_townPhilly said:


> This "illusion-smashing" is really nothing new to experienced observers of the scene. At irregular but persistent intervals, we read about the latest test that claims to comprehensively illustrate that Strad and del Jesù violins are nothing special. As early as sometime in the '70s, I read about some manner of sonic-spectral analysis that argued that there was little or no distinction. In spite of this, the violins of the Cremonese masters continue to be in the highest demand among collectors and top-flight virtuosi. I suspect that this most recent test [sponsored by a _modern-instrument-maker(?!)_] will have as much impact on the desirability of the Strads & Guarneris as all of the previous ones...


[Reference to self at post #29]


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## Couchie

oskaar said:


> I am a potter.... What About a violin in ceramics?


Here is a glass violin:


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## Vaneyes

More questions...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/musicblog/2012/jan/03/stradivarius-v-modern-violins-study


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## Polednice

Vaneyes said:


> More questions...
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/musicblog/2012/jan/03/stradivarius-v-modern-violins-study


There are some concerns raised in that article that are somewhat justified, and others not so justified, but I shan't do the writer the dignity of responding when their intention was to uphold the "magical genius" of Stradivarius.


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## emiellucifuge

This was in the economist last week.

http://www.economist.com/node/21542380?fsrc=scn/tw/te/ar/fiddlingwiththemind


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## Vaneyes

Expanding further...

The Indianapolis test, with sound samples and 209 comments.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/deceptivec...uble-blind-violin-test-can-you-pick-the-strad

Updates on the Indianapolis test. Three of the players.

http://www.artsjournal.com/slippedd...w-i-blind-tested-old-violins-against-new.html

http://www.violinist.com/blog/laurie/20121/13039/

http://thestrad.com/BlogArticle.asp?bID=196

Blind Faith, from The Strad, Feb. 2007.

http://www.abcviolins.com/blindlistening.html


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## Vaneyes

Polednice said:


> There are some concerns raised in that article that are somewhat justified, and others not so justified, but I shan't do the writer the dignity of responding when their intention was to uphold the "magical genius" of Stradivarius.


Or, a fair playing field?


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## AmericanGesamtkunstwerk

Trout said:


> I believe it is supposed to be 'Stradivarii'.


i came to this thread knowing nothing of violins, just to make this joke. . . but i was late.


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## jurianbai

great... I;ll stick to my vintage wine collection then... rather to another 1 millions old tree cut.


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## Polednice

Vaneyes said:


> Or, a fair playing field?


My quote was from the article. The bias is clear.


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## Hazel

AmericanGesamtkunstwerk said:


> i came to this thread knowing nothing of violins, just to make this joke. . . but i was late.


I, also, but I am always a day late and a dollar short. Who knows whether she is right or wrong. That was a very small sampling. All violins are beautiful to my ear. Hmmm? Maybe that need re-wording? All well-played violins are beautiful. Better?

As you said, there is always someone standing by ready to attack any tradition just for the "fun" of it.


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## TrazomGangflow

Not suprising. I think owning a Stradivarius is more about owning a piece of history than owning something to be played. However I think a Stradivarius would over-perform a new violin but would not significantly sound better than another violin of equal age. I have read that the wood hardens in older violins giving a better sound.


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## Chi_townPhilly

TrazomGangflow said:


> ...I think a Stradivarius would over-perform a new violin but would not significantly sound better than another violin of equal age. I have read that the wood hardens in older violins giving a better sound.


The first sentence, of course, is raw speculation. 
However, there's something to be said for the second one.

I'll attempt a thumbnail review of a few elements of string-instrument production. I have no credentials except for the fact that I once had a 2+ year relationship with an orchestra-quality violinist, a meaningful friendship with a cellist, and a brief but dizzying infatuation with a violist-- and absorbed a lot of what they said...

1) Old-growth wood is better than new-growth wood. The former invariably has a tighter grain. This is freely acknowledged by pretty much all parties. Modern instrument makers prize old timber, even from salvaged/recycled sources, and are willing to pay tip-top dollar for this lumber.

2) As mentioned previously, high-quality instruments can "age-in," but sometimes they can "age-out," too. I suppose this phenomenon has always been a part of the Luthier's craft- it's simply that the "age-out" instruments of yore are forgotten, whereas more recent "axes" that age-out are fresher in the memory.

3) The closest thing to a "trade-secret" among the Cremonese masters is the varnish-composition utilized. Simply because the process was guarded (and in fact might be the only step that _could_ be guarded), many have seized on that aspect of production as the "source-Q" of the excellence of Stradivarius and Guarneri violins. No doubt this element was treated at least as seriously as any other step in fabrication... but consensus is that many people's imagination as it pertains to "secrets" have caused a lot of us to _over_estimate the importance of this element of the process.


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## Lunasong

Word from one of the participants.
http://www.violinist.com/blog/laurie/20121/13039/


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## Lunasong

yeah, more.
http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4328
http://www.economist.com/node/21563276


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## ErinD

I remember there was some guy that spent a lot of time and effort to make a violin that replicated the waveform of a strad, and he got it pretty close. Well if you look around the internet, people all think they sound quite bad. 

I'd take a Carleen Hutchins violin anyday of the week anyway.


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## Nariette

Polednice said:


> It doesn't matter any more now that they're scrap wood.


I wouldn't say scrapwood... It's difficult to make an instrument, there is a special college study for it you know, it's not just putting some strings on a few pieces of wood. 
then again, the sound is not based on the violin, but on the violinist. Give a violin tyo someone who has never touched one before, and it will sound horrible. Same goes for a stradivarius. 
I don't know if you are such an academic, nor am I, but if experienced musicians pay millions for one I'd say they are from a good quality.


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## moody

Nariette said:


> I wouldn't say scrapwood... It's difficult to make an instrument, there is a special college study for it you know, it's not just putting some strings on a few pieces of wood.
> then again, the sound is not based on the violin, but on the violinist. Give a violin tyo someone who has never touched one before, and it will sound horrible. Same goes for a stradivarius.
> I don't know if you are such an academic, nor am I, but if experienced musicians pay millions for one I'd say they are from a good quality.


He's gone and you are right!


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## Nariette

moody said:


> He's gone and you are right!


thanks, I haven't heard that recently


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## PetrB

jurianbai said:


> stop cutting tree for your ego ears. use plastic!


Right after you come up with an environmentally clean to make and use synthetic material which will substitute for the old growth wood -- very close grained because it grew in a mini ice age -- with all the attendant acoustic properties, that is the wood of the resonating bodies of the Stradavarii.

You could be the first.


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## Ukko

PetrB said:


> Right after you come up with an environmentally clean to make and use synthetic material which will substitute for the old growth wood -- very close grained because it grew in a mini ice age -- with all the attendant acoustic properties, that is the wood of the resonating bodies of the Stradavarii.
> 
> You could be the first.


Peering at the market place, I see *carbon fiber*. I even have a CD of music played on a carbon fiber cello. Sounds OK to me, but there's a possibly significant range of frequencies I don't hear.


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## millionrainbows

I found this cello for $60.









This cheap Sri Lanka-made violin was $30, and I fixed it.


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## Vaneyes

Did someone mention trees?

http://www.npr.org/blogs/deceptivec...in-the-italian-alps-stradivaris-trees-live-on


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## Xaltotun

Maybe Stradivariuses aren't so special, but then again neither is music. It's just sounds. The Lacanian Real is all too willing to swallow us whole, if we continue to invite it to us. Be careful when dispelling "illusions", next thing, you're eating babies.


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## Vaneyes

Good news, a Strad fiddle is recovered.

http://www.npr.org/2015/08/06/42771...-stolen-stradivarius-recovered-after-35-years


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## Vaneyes

Ukko said:


> Peering at the market place, I see *carbon fiber*. I even have a CD of music played on a carbon fiber cello. Sounds OK to me, but there's a possibly significant range of frequencies I don't hear.


I heard Shauna Rolston play carbon cello in-concert. Not as warm as Ma's Montagnana (1733), but acceptable. It was her heavy breathing that was far more irritating. :tiphat:


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## millionrainbows

The next time you hear Itzhak Perlman play, listen to his violin. It was Yehudi Mehuin's old one. I can hear it, and it sounds so warm and fantastic.


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## millionrainbows

Vaneyes said:


> I heard Shauna Rolston play carbon cello in-concert. Not as warm as Ma's Montagnana (1733), but acceptable. It was her heavy breathing that was far more irritating. :tiphat:


At least they don't grunt, like those tennis players.


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## KenOC

A story I read recently about the sounds of violins. A violinist (Stern?) was approached after a performance. "Maestro, what a beautiful sound your violin has!" [Violinist holds instrument up to ear, shakes it slightly.] "That's funny, I don't hear anything at all." [Holds violin out.] "Here, you try it."


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## Vaneyes

millionrainbows said:


> At least they don't grunt, like those tennis players.


Heretofore, screaming, grunting, heavy breathing are perfectly acceptable in the proper context.


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## Vaneyes

KenOC said:


> A story I read recently about the sounds of violins. A violinist (Stern?) was approached after a performance. "Maestro, what a beautiful sound your violin has!" [Violinist holds instrument up to ear, shakes it slightly.] "That's funny, I don't hear anything at all." [Holds violin out.] "Here, you try it."


Oy, oy, not funny, Isaac. See also 'Jack Benny Show' 1955. :angel:


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## millionrainbows

By Georgy ------ 14420 views

'Twas battered and scarred and the auctioneer
Thought it scarcely worth his while
To waste much time on the old violin,
But he held it up with a smile.
"What am I bid, good folk?" he cried.
"Who'll start the bidding for me?
A dollar, a dollar … now two … only two …
Two dollars, and who'll make it three?
"Three dollars once, three dollars twice,
Going for three" … but no!
From the room far back a gray-haired man
Came forward and picked up the bow.
Then wiping the dust from the old violin
And tightening up the strings,
He played a melody pure and sweet,
As sweet as an angel sings.
The music ceased, and the auctioneer,
With a voice that was quiet and low,
Said, "What am I bid for the old violin?"
As he held it up with the bow.
"A thousand dollars … and who'll make it two?
Two…two thousand, and who'll make it three?
Three thousand once and three thousand twice …
Three thousand and gone!" said he.
The people cheered, but some exclaimed
"We do not quite understand …
What changed it's worth?" and the answer came:
" 'Twas the touch of the master's hand."
And many a man with soul out of tune
And battered and scarred by sin
Is auctioned cheap by the thoughtless crowd
Just like the old violin.
But the Master comes, and the foolish crowd
Never can quite understand
The worth of a soul, and the change that is wrought
By the touch of the master's hand.
O Master! I am the tuneless one
Lay, lay Thy hand on me,
Transform me now, put a song in my heart
Of melody, Lord, to Thee!
_- - - written by Myra Brooks Welch_


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## Bridge

I have not partaken in any formal study on this issue, so I can't claim that I would be able to differentiate between Strad and no-Strad 100% of the time, but the test given on Deceptive Cadence is _easy_. The Stradivarius has a far richer overtone structure than the other violin - it's pretty striking. Call them overrated if you will, the instrument certainly matters less than the musician holding it, but these instruments are well crafted and sound very good.

One other thing, I don't think this test should entail the violinists playing the instruments. The sound that a violinist hears is a combination of the "dry" sound that enters their left ear directly from the F-holes and the "wet" sound which enters both of their ears after it has been tempered by the acoustics of the space and bounced back to them. The instrument also resonates with the entire body which makes the sound that they hear more visceral and real. It's very much comparable to the difference in how one's voice sounds to oneself vs. to others. In the former case the vibrations from your vocal cords resonate within the cavities in your body which makes your voice sound richer. Well, if you translate this to violin playing, I believe that this effect is enough to at least affect the results of the test somewhat, because in a certain sense the violinists will always be listening to a little part of themselves.

Not that professional violinists can't be hacks either - you have to know what to listen for.


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## sharik

Polednice said:


> A study has recently shown that, in all likelihood, Stradivariuses are nothing special because no one can tell the difference between one and a new violin in controlled trials (in fact, in some cases the new violins are preferred).


most likely because the violinists can't play properly.


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