# Analyzing an orchestral score (Symphony Eroica)



## rbacce

Hello.

I recently got the full Bärenreiter Urtext score of the Symphony no. 3 (Eroica) by Beethoven. I've always loved this piece. I am analyzing it, and so far I have been more concerned with the harmonies and counterpoints of the first movement. I play the piano, so I guess harmony comes more naturally to me than other elements. 

But I'm having difficulty in knowing how to analyze it. Classical analysis, as in Schenker or Schoenberg, is a discipline I actually did not study in depth, since I focused mostly in jazz for some time. How would you analyze an orchestral score? Is there anything I should look for? Where to start from?

Thank you.


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## david johnson

Schenker helped me in college and a little after that. It also used to help me to think of the chords as numbers - sections are in I (Eb), or IV (Ab), etc. Scan a few pages and see if that works for you.


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## EdwardBast

What approach to use depends on where you think the through line of the work is, what holds the first movement together — that is, identifying what the Russian formalists would have called "the dominant" of its construction. IMO, the through line is in its dramatic thematic processes and their quasi-narrative structure. All the rest (harmony, tonal organization, etc.) is subservient and draws its significance from these processes. 

I know the first movement very well and will follow along if you want to post findings and issues related to your analysis.


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## rbacce

Thank you both for your answers.

So, firstly I'm seeking for the sections' keys. I'm also practicing as if I were to conduct the first movement: I'm playing individual parts on the piano and singing them. I'm also trying to play two parts at the same time, or one part while singing the other. This is something I learned from a conducting professor in college.

@EdwardBast, how would you classify the first chord in the following image? It's something like a V7/V, with a root note on the bass. But this Gb is a bit confusing. :S


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## EdwardBast

rbacce said:


> @EdwardBast, how would you classify the first chord in the following image? It's something like a V7/V, with a root note on the bass. But this Gb is a bit confusing. :S
> 
> View attachment 110751


It's vii°7/V. The G-flat is borrowed from the minor mode of the dominant (Bb minor). This was a pretty standard way of intensifying a dominant or secondary dominant in the major mode in this era. The minor mode coloration before the resolution, which raises tension because b6, in this case Gb, has a strong tendency downward, makes the resolution sweeter. Haydn did it all the time.


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## rbacce

Thank you, EdwardBast. 

I'll keep on with my analysis and I'll post here as soon as I have any doubt or find something interesting.


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## drmdjones

I would suggest, in addition to what you are doing, to find and follow motives throughout the movement. Beethoven creates a sense of unity by recasting melodic and, especially, rhythmic motives in different contexts. For example, I identify three motives in the first five bars of the melody after the opening chords: the first four notes (Eb G Eb Bb), then five notes beginning on the Bb of the first motive, the motives are elided in this way, (Bb Eb G high Bb Eb), finally three notes beginning on the last note of previous motive (Eb D C#). You will find these motives throughout the movement. For example, the second theme starting in m. 45 is built from the third of these motives. Also, the famous "new" theme in the development (measures 284 forward), is built from the first motive above.

The most famous (infamous?) note in this movement is the aforementioned C# in m.7. What think ye of this? What key is implied for three bars before he returns to Eb in bars 10-11? Notice that he treats it differently in the recap (measures 402-408). What goes on there? Please forgive all the questions but this is the most talked about element of this movement. You'll probably want to have an opinion on it.


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## rbacce

drmdjones said:


> I would suggest, in addition to what you are doing, to find and follow motives throughout the movement. Beethoven creates a sense of unity by recasting melodic and, especially, rhythmic motives in different contexts. For example, I identify three motives in the first five bars of the melody after the opening chords: the first four notes (Eb G Eb Bb), then five notes beginning on the Bb of the first motive, the motives are elided in this way, (Bb Eb G high Bb Eb), finally three notes beginning on the last note of previous motive (Eb D C#). You will find these motives throughout the movement. For example, the second theme starting in m. 45 is built from the third of these motives. Also, the famous "new" theme in the development (measures 284 forward), is built from the first motive above.
> 
> The most famous (infamous?) note in this movement is the aforementioned C# in m.7. What think ye of this? What key is implied for three bars before he returns to Eb in bars 10-11? Notice that he treats it differently in the recap (measures 402-408). What goes on there? Please forgive all the questions but this is the most talked about element of this movement. You'll probably want to have an opinion on it.


Thanks for your answer. I've noticed the recurrency of certain motives throughout the movement. I interpreted, before, the second theme (m. 45) that you mentioned as a rhythmic diminution of the first two notes of the main theme (half note + quarter note). Now I think I agree with you. But following Schoenberg's book on analysis, I believe both notes would be a motive, while the whole theme would be best described as a phrase. For instance, throughout the part H of this movement (m. 248), which I understand as the true climax of it, there're many rhythmic references to this motive, along with some hemiolas. On the other hand, I've seen the second motive you mentioned all over the piece, many times.

I'll take a better look at this C#.


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## Roger Knox

Consider that C-sharp is enharmonically D-flat.


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## Roger Knox

rbacce said:


> ... the Symphony no. 3 (Eroica) by Beethoven ... I am analyzing it, and so far I have been more concerned with the harmonies and counterpoints of the first movement. But I'm having difficulty in knowing how to analyze it. Classical analysis, as in Schenker or Schoenberg, is a discipline I actually did not study in depth, since I focused mostly in jazz for some time. How would you analyze an orchestral score? Is there anything I should look for? Where to start from?


All the advice up to here is good. Edward Bast's includes significant concepts I haven't studied. Schenker actually published his analysis of the whole Symphony No. 3. Schenkerian analysis is important but IMO tough and very time consuming, not the place to start. I know that in tonal music Schoenberg focused a lot on motives (e.g. as in Brahms).

If I were doing it, I'd look for a piano reduction of the first movement score to speed things up, then do what I learned as (perhaps old-fashioned now) style analysis: harmonic, motivic, form (from phrases up to the overall sonata form). I would look at rhythm & metre and at orchestration in more general terms, and add your own impressions and ideas as you pull it together.


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## EdwardBast

IMO, the famous C# is a detail of local interest with no significant long term implications. Even in the recap, where the key of D-flat soon follows, the supposed enharmonic relation is at best insignificant and at worst BS — just the kind of twaddle harmonocentrists love to focus on because it fits into their myopic view of musical structure. Locally, it's harmonic significance is in briefly suggesting the dominant of G minor. It's structural significance, however, is motivic and dramatic. The descent Eb-D-C# is counterbalanced in the second phrase by the contrary motion Eb-E-F, a relationship with dramatic significance: first turning away, then rising to meet the theme's main antagonistic element, the duple meter motive on the dominant in the third section of the theme (mm. 23ff). This duple motive is a block to forward progress which the opening idea, the movement's protagonist, eventually pushes through to assert itself more forcefully (mm. 37ff). This confrontation of a powerful opposing element is what establishes the heroic character of the theme.

The climax of the movement revisits this motivic opposition. This time, however, the antagonistic duple motive has grown in power and ferocity, raging for over thirty measures beginning in m. 248, and this time, instead of the heroic reassertion of the main idea, our protagonist, we get a collapse into the "New Theme" in E minor — a negative, troubled form of the opening idea on distant terrain. This change in the power relationship between the opening motive and it's duple nemesis is the essence of the structure. The overall thrust of the rest of the movement further develops this opposing relationship. 

A full tonal/harmonic analysis is important in understanding how the movement works. But to understand the significance of its tonal relationships, IMO, requires finding their role in supporting the dramatic motivic conflict that is the through line of the structure.


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