# OH 17.04.2015 - Die Frau ohne Schatten



## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

Welcome to our second edition of the "Opera Hour" thread. I'm posting this on Friday so you'll have a bit more time to listen to the opera - it's long but it's a goodie!

103. *Die Frau ohne Schatten* - Richard Strauss

I was very surprised to find this opera in the #103 spot on Talk Classical's 272 Most Recommended Operas list. It's considered by some to be his greatest opera, in fact. In true Wagnerian fashion, Strauss crams a wealth of leitmotifs into the music, underlining the symbolic complexity of Hofmannsthal's libretto. There's no doubt that the opera is a masterpiece, and despite the 4-year delay of its premiere in 1919 (due to World War I), it has since asserted its place in the standard repertoire.

Here's our first thread, in case you missed it and would like to catch up. Audio and video recordings are both welcome. If you've been to a live performance, we'd love to hear about it.

Toi, toi, toi!


----------



## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

I'm a fan of this opera. I saw it live last year in a brilliant production by Claus Guth at the Royal Opera House which was conducted by Semyon Bychkov. It was the finest thing I saw at ROH last year and it's a shame that there isn't going to be a DVD release. I think that the opera is poorly served on DVD. Neither Solti or Swallisch's DVD's hit the mark and although Thielemann's DVD is musically strong I thought the production by Loy was dire.

On CD I only have the live Böhm which has heavy cuts.


----------



## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

I like this opera, especially the way Strauss develops the psychologies of the two women, the Empress and Barak's wife. The score is luxurious, even tiresome sometimes ("too many notes" ). The last act seems to be an oratorio itself.

Leonie Rysanek is pretty much the gold standard for the role of the Empress. I don't own any recordings of this opera, but if I need to listen to it, I usually go to the one conducted by Bohm with Rysanek, Nilsson, and Berry etc available on Spotify.

For DVD, I absolutely love this one, one of the most imaginative staging out there:


----------



## anmhe (Feb 10, 2015)

I was pleasantly surprised by this on the first listen, and it only gets better for me on repeat listenings.


----------



## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

I listened to this opera for the first time a few months ago, with Solti and the Vienna Philharmonic. I enjoyed it, but my focus was on the leitmotifs so I didn't pay as much attention to the singing/orchestration as I would have liked.

My second listening will be the Bohm recording with the Orchester der Wiener Staatsoper:


----------



## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

With my great regret I have just discovered that my CDs (at least 2 over 3) of the original Bohm issue










have been ruined by that cursed foam the record labels used to insert in the CD cases at the beginning of the CD era...



I thought I had removed all those inserts from my CD collection times ago...


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

How about the Solti recording? I hear it is pretty good.


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Florestan said:


> How about the Solti recording? I hear it is pretty good.


Just like the singing / conducting, the sound is stunning!:tiphat:


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

GioCar said:


> With my great regret I have just discovered that my CDs (at least 2 over 3) of the original Bohm issue have been ruined by that cursed foam the record labels used to insert in the CD cases at the beginning of the CD era...
> 
> 
> 
> I thought I had removed all those inserts from my CD collection times ago...


I have received CDs purchased used online that had that foam and thought the seller had inserted it to protect the disks in case they jar loose during shipping. I was going to put a piece of that foam in one set that has loose hubs, but in the back of my mind I pictured it going bad and ruining the CD, so I didn't. So now I know it really will do that. 

But now I have to go through all my CDs because I may have put that foam in some other set. Wow that is a massive job, but it would be good to sort through them all.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

GioCar said:


> With my great regret I have just discovered that my CDs (at least 2 over 3) of the original Bohm issue
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The happens when discs have been subject to heat (eg left in the sun) and the foam melts over the discs. Had it happen myself - most annoying!


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

DavidA said:


> The happens when discs have been subject to heat (eg left in the sun) and the foam melts over the discs. Had it happen myself - most annoying!


Not only the sun DavidA, it's coming with ageing, a few years back I removed all those horrible foam things.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I have this opera conducted by Sallawisch but afraid it doesn't do much for me.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Like Pugg, I've had foam inserts in old multi-CD cases deteriorate and damage CDs without exposure to heat or adverse conditions. It seems to be a form of natural material deterioration. I removed all foam inserts.


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

DavidA said:


> I have this opera conducted by Sallawisch but afraid it doesn't do much for me.


The opera in general or the cast?


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Pugg said:


> The opera in general or the cast?


Opera in general.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

_Die Frau_ is my favorite Strauss opera. He never had a more apt story - magical occurrences and supernatural beings - on which to unleash his orchestral virtuosity. No overdressed pseudo-Viennese marshmallows here. Just some good, pretentious post-Wagnerian mumbo-jumbo.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I like a lot of what I've heard, but, oddly perhaps, the opera has passed me by and I don't have a recording. I'm tempted by Solti's cast, but I don't much like his conducting in the other Strauss operas, so assume I wouldn't like it much in this one either.

For a version in decent sound, I suppose that leaves me with Bohm and Sawallisch. Recommendations anyone?


----------



## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

GregMitchell said:


> I like a lot of what I've heard, but, oddly perhaps, the opera has passed me by and I don't have a recording. I'm tempted by Solti's cast, but I don't much like his conducting in the other Strauss operas, so assume I wouldn't like it much in this one either.
> 
> For a version in decent sound, I suppose that leaves me with Bohm and Sawallisch. Recommendations anyone?


Sawallisch. I like it so that's my call, but I like the Bohm too. Yes, get the Bohm. No wait, it's impossible, get both. I love Die Frau so I can't make an unbiased decision here. All my versions have something illuminating about them that I get something out of.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Barbebleu said:


> Sawallisch. I like it so that's my call, but I like the Bohm too. Yes, get the Bohm. No wait, it's impossible, get both. I love Die Frau so I can't make an unbiased decision here. All my versions have something illuminating about them that I get something out of.


Thanks. That was a great help :lol:


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I have the Bohm and find it good, but I can't compare. You probably can't miss with either. In these cases I usually just look for singers I can't stand and don't buy that one.


----------



## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

GregMitchell said:


> Thanks. That was a great help :lol:


Gun to head time then. Go Sawallisch. Hope this helps!


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> _Die Frau_ is my favorite Strauss opera. * He never had a more apt story - magical occurrences and supernatural beings - on which to unleash his orchestral virtuosity. *No overdressed pseudo-Viennese marshmallows here. Just some good, pretentious post-Wagnerian mumbo-jumbo.


I suppose Strauss is Wagnerian that way.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I have the Bohm and find it good, but I can't compare. You probably can't miss with either. In these cases I usually just look for singers I can't stand and don't buy that one.


Well I'm not a big Studer fan, but I wouldn't say I can't stand her, so still not sure. Maybe I'll just go for the one I can get cheapest from Amazon Marketplace.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Well I'm not a big Studer fan, but I wouldn't say I can't stand her, so still not sure. Maybe I'll just go for the one I can get cheapest from Amazon Marketplace.


Studer's- well, propriety forbids me from saying- just completely avoid her Empress and even Sinopoli's tepid conducting on that recording of his.

I like Karajan's live VSO endeavor with a passionate Leonie Rysanek the most overall- though I loathe the austere recorded sound.

The overall cast and conducting of Bohm's second DG recording is wonderful (though far from the ideal of how I'd love to hear the score articulated) for a good stereophonic recording of the opera, even more so than the stellar-sounding mid-fifties Decca of his.

I'd rank those three up at the top of my list for singing and conducting, all of the rest of the_ Die Frau ohne Schattens _that I have fall considerably short of these standard-bearers.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Studer's- well, propriety forbids me from saying- just completely avoid her Empress and even Sinopoli's tepid conducting on that recording of his.
> 
> I like Karajan's live VSO endeavor with a passionate Leonie Rysanek the most overall- though I loathe the austere recorded sound.
> 
> ...


Studer on Sawallisch is what put me off, and Vintzing is something of an unknown quantity, so Bohm it is, I guess. Rysanek and Nilsson tip the balance.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

*


GregMitchell said:



Studer on Sawallisch is what put me off, and Vintzing is something of an unknown quantity, so Bohm it is, I guess.

Click to expand...

*You really like fervid and subtle singing though, Greg.

In all honesty I don't know how much you're going to like _Die Frau ohne Schatten._

I think its GORG- of course!- but if Puccini can get placid for you at times, I imagine this will as well.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Marschallin Blair said:


> You really like fervid and subtle singing though, Greg.
> 
> In all honesty I don't know how much you're going to like _Die Frau ohne Schatten._
> 
> I think its GORG- of course!- but if Puccini can get placid for you at times, I imagine this will as well.


Well I do have most of the main Strauss operas, *Salome*, *Der Rosenkavalier*, *Ariadne auf Naxos*, *Arabella* and *Capriccio* (but not *Elektra* which always sounds like a load of women screaming at each other to me), so I guess I ought to get *Frau* as well.

I also have all the Puccini operas except *Le Villi* and *Edgar*, by the way. It's not that I find Puccini placid, it's just that, musically, I don't feel Puccini is on the same level as Verdi, or even Rossini, Bellini and Donizetti, for all that his operas work so well in the theatre.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Well I do have most of the main Strauss operas, *Salome*, *Der Rosenkavalier*, *Ariadne auf Naxos*, *Arabella* and *Capriccio* (but not *Elektra* which always sounds like a load of women screaming at each other to me), so I guess I ought to get *Frau* as well.
> 
> *I also have all the Puccini operas except Le Villi and Edgar, by the way. It's not that I find Puccini placid, it's just that, musically, I don't feel Puccini is on the same level as Verdi, or even Rossini, Bellini and Donizetti, for all that his operas work so well in the theatre. *




. . . of which I 'completely' agree. . . _when it comes to the dramatic vocal lines_.


----------



## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

GregMitchell said:


> Well I do have most of the main Strauss operas, *Salome*, *Der Rosenkavalier*, *Ariadne auf Naxos*, *Arabella* and *Capriccio* (but not *Elektra* which always sounds like a load of women screaming at each other to me), so I guess I ought to get *Frau* as well.
> 
> I also have all the Puccini operas except *Le Villi* and *Edgar*, by the way. It's not that I find Puccini placid, it's just that, musically, I don't feel Puccini is on the same level as Verdi, or even Rossini, Bellini and Donizetti, for all that his operas work so well in the theatre.


Puccini is certainly on the same level as Verdi and I agree he is not on the same level as Rossini, Bellini or Donizetti. He is a few notches above. But I would never be so dogmatic as to state that as a matter of fact! Richard Strauss is of course a couple of rungs up from Puccini and Wagner rules all!! Perhaps you disagree.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Barbebleu said:


> Puccini is certainly on the same level as Verdi and I agree he is not on the same level as Rossini, Bellini or Donizetti. He is a few notches above. But I would never be so dogmatic as to state that as a matter of fact! Richard Strauss is of course a couple of rungs up from Puccini and Wagner rules all!! Perhaps you disagree.


With every word! :devil:


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> Puccini is certainly on the same level as Verdi and I agree he is not on the same level as Rossini, Bellini or Donizetti. He is a few notches above. But I would never be so dogmatic as to state that as a matter of fact! *Richard Strauss is of course a couple of rungs up from Puccini and Wagner rules all!! Perhaps you disagree. *


Strauss is a couple of clicks above Puccini- certainly.

But Wagner does 'not' rule us all; though of course I rule his 'fans'- through love of course. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.

- Just ask some of the more eloquent ones on this forum _;D_


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

GregMitchell said:


> I like a lot of what I've heard, but, oddly perhaps, the opera has passed me by and I don't have a recording. I'm tempted by Solti's cast, but I don't much like his conducting in the other Strauss operas, so assume I wouldn't like it much in this one either.
> 
> For a version in decent sound, I suppose that leaves me with Bohm and Sawallisch. Recommendations anyone?


The two ladies on the Bohm recording are both highly rated singers. I would have pursued that one possibly over Solti but the Bohm sets were more expensive used, and so I did not pursue even clips as the Solti was very satisfactory to me and a lot of good cast. I first noticed this opera in the edition that Janowitz sings in but there were some comments about the recording/performance being non-standard in some way (comments on the amazon listing).

Amazon commenters were noting that only Solti and Sawallisch were complete recordings. 
So that played into my decision too.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Marschallin Blair said:


> I suppose Strauss is Wagnerian that way.


I posted in a Wagner thread about this particular opera reminding me of Wagner--specifically Lohengrin--to some degree, but nobody responded to that comment. I am glad to hear someone finds the same quality to it.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Florestan said:


> The two ladies on the Bohm recording are both highly rated singers. I would have pursued that one possibly over Solti but the Bohm sets were more expensive used, and so I did not pursue even clips as the Solti was very satisfactory to me and a lot of good cast. I first noticed this opera in the edition that Janowitz sings in but there were some comments about the recording/performance being non-standard in some way (comments on the amazon listing).
> 
> Amazon commenters were noting that only Solti and Sawallisch were complete recordings.
> So that played into my decision too.


I'm just a bit put off by Solti. I prefer my Strauss a bit more expansive, so I guess I'll go with Bohm.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

GregMitchell said:


> I'm just a bit put off by Solti. I prefer my Strauss a bit more expansive, so I guess I'll go with Bohm.


Great choice. If I get a second set, Bohm will be on the top of my list. I should periodically scour the sites for deals that may pop up.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

*


Florestan said:



I posted in a Wagner thread about this particular opera reminding me of Wagner--specifically Lohengrin--to some degree, but nobody responded to that comment. I am glad to hear someone finds the same quality to it.

Click to expand...

*"If magic and supernatural beings are good for Wagner, then their good for Strauss"- was what I was basically saying to _Herr Doktor _Woodduck- since he made a crack about_ Die Frau ohne Schatten_.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

*


GregMitchell said:



I'm just a bit put off by Solti. I prefer my Strauss a bit more expansive, so I guess I'll go with Bohm.

Click to expand...

*Solti rushes too many sections for my liking- and his climaxes 'aren't.'

Not a very generous lover. _;D_

Good choice of singers though.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Florestan said:


> The two ladies on the Bohm recording are both highly rated singers. I would have pursued that one possibly over Solti but the Bohm sets were more expensive used, and so I did not pursue even clips as the Solti was very satisfactory to me and a lot of good cast. *I first noticed this opera in the edition that Janowitz sings in but there were some comments about the recording/performance being non-standard in some way (comments on the amazon listing).*
> 
> Amazon commenters were noting that only Solti and Sawallisch were complete recordings.
> So that played into my decision too.


Gundula- and I love her; but here comes the drop hammer- is just too un-nuanced on the Karajan recording for me. The Empress needs to exude sunshine and life- not just a silvery timbre.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Gundula- and I love her; but here comes the drop hammer- is just too un-nuanced on the Karajan recording for me. The Empress needs to exude sunshine and life- not just a silvery timbre.


Opera Depot has a recording of a Covent Garden performance (also under Solti) with Heather Harper as the Empress and Helga Dernesch as the Dyer's Wife. Harper sounds wonderful in the short sample clip on their site.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

*


GregMitchell said:



Opera Depot has a recording of a Covent Garden performance (also under Solti) with Heather Harper as the Empress and Helga Dernesch as the Dyer's Wife. Harper sounds wonderful in the short sample clip on their site.

Click to expand...

*An infectious Greg Mitchell suggestion isn't a request in my book, its a command.

I'll get it.

- Thanks for telling me about it.

A duo I can believe in.


----------



## Jeffrey Smith (Jan 2, 2016)

Marschallin Blair said:


> You really like fervid and subtle singing though, Greg.
> 
> In all honesty I don't know how much you're going to like _Die Frau ohne Schatten._
> 
> I think its GORG- of course!- but if Puccini can get placid for you at times, I imagine this will as well.


I think Greg will love it.
My reasoning is simple
Of the handful of Strauss operas I have (Rosenkavalier, Arabella, FRoSch, Elektra, Salome, Ariadne) FRoSch seems most like Rosenkavalier in its handling of the music. And like Rosenkavalier, the main characters (meaning the Empress, Barak, and his wife) are fully humanized individuals whom one can imagine meeting in the real world.

Therefore knowing what he thinks of the one opera....


----------



## Jeffrey Smith (Jan 2, 2016)

GregMitchell said:


> Well I do have most of the main Strauss operas, *Salome*, *Der Rosenkavalier*, *Ariadne auf Naxos*, *Arabella* and *Capriccio* (but not *Elektra* which always sounds like a load of women screaming at each other to me), so I guess I ought to get *Frau* as well..


You don't know how much better that statement about Elektra makes me feel. I never really liked it, for the very reason you give.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I'm surprised to see others rating Puccini below so many (most?) other first-rank opera composers. He's far from a personal favorite of mine (mainly a temperamental thing), but as a maker of music, and specifically of dramatic music, I think he's brilliant, and right up there with the best of them, surpassed only by Wagner and Verdi in their different ways. As musical works _and_ as effective theater, I find _La Boheme _and _Madama Butterfly_ among the greatest operas ever written, and several of his other operas not far behind.

I wonder why some find Strauss superior? He was certainly a virtuoso and rose to some magnificent moments, but I don't find his operas at all consistent, either in musical inspiration or in depth of expression. Wagner and Verdi in their maturity turned out masterpiece after masterpiece, and there are few lapses in Puccini once he hit his stride. But for me even Strauss's best operas are up-and-down affairs, with plenty of not very eloquent note-spinning.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Jeffrey Smith said:


> *I think Greg will love it.*
> My reasoning is simple
> Of the handful of Strauss operas I have (Rosenkavalier, Arabella, FRoSch, Elektra, Salome, Ariadne) FRoSch seems most like Rosenkavalier in its handling of the music. And like Rosenkavalier, the main characters (meaning the Empress, Barak, and his wife) are fully humanized individuals whom one can imagine meeting in the real world.
> 
> Therefore knowing what he thinks of the one opera....


I certainly hope so.

You know what a delightfully hard grader he is with singers and singing.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

*


Jeffrey Smith said:



You don't know how much better that statement about Elektra makes me feel. I never really liked it, for the very reason you give.

Click to expand...

*









I like it 'precisely' for the reasons you and Greg abjure. _;D_


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

*


Woodduck said:



I'm surprised to see others rating Puccini below so many (most?) other first-rank opera composers. He's far from a personal favorite of mine (mainly a temperamental thing), but as a maker of music, and specifically of dramatic music, I think he's brilliant, and right up there with the best of them, surpassed only by Wagner and Verdi in their different ways. As musical works and as effective theater, I find La Boheme and Madama Butterfly among the greatest operas ever written, and several of his other operas not far behind.

I wonder why some find Strauss superior? He was certainly a virtuoso and rose to some magnificent moments, but I don't find his operas at all consistent, either in musical inspiration or in depth of expression. Wagner and Verdi in their maturity turned out masterpiece after masterpiece, and there are few lapses in Puccini once he hit his stride. But for me even Strauss's best operas are up-and-down affairs, with plenty of not very eloquent note-spinning.

Click to expand...

*Strauss 'is' very uneven inspirationally in his _oeuvre_, but I'll amiably endure some of the cloying, occasional note spinning to get to those higher and higher roseate ridges of his. After all, where are such peaks to be found?

I don't find most operas- including Verdi and Wagner- to be consistently inspired the whole way through- the _Ring _and _Tristan_ included.


----------



## Jeffrey Smith (Jan 2, 2016)

Marschallin Blair said:


> I certainly hope so.
> 
> You know what a delightfully hard grader he is with singers and singing.


You will notice I made no suggestion as to which recording to get.
I have three: Sawallisch, Bohm DG, and Solti...but I have yet to listen to the Solti: it's part of one of several sets I have yet to play a note from.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Regarding the Bohm Die Frau ohne Schatten, it appears there are several to choose from:

The one under discussion in this thread (clips):









And then these three:

CLIPS









CLIPS









CLIPS


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

*


Jeffrey Smith said:



You will notice I made no suggestion as to which recording to get.
I have three: Sawallisch, Bohm DG, and Solti...but I have yet to listen to the Solti: it's part of one of several sets I have yet to play a note from.

Click to expand...

*Cheers to your acquisitions. <_Clink_.> _;D_

I just get them all, myself.

Its an unending quest. _Die Frau ohne Schatten_ is such a massive score, and everyone does it so differently.


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Florestan said:


> Regarding the Bohm Die Frau ohne Schatten, it appears there are several to choose from:
> 
> The one under discussion in this thread (clips):
> 
> ...


The Steber one is outstanding :tiphat:


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

*


Florestan said:



Regarding the Bohm Die Frau ohne Schatten, it appears there are several to choose from

Click to expand...

*









. . . and of course there's also the 'studio' Decca Bohm with the VPO from Nov. 29-30 and Dec. 2, 7, and 10 in 1955- which has the most spectacular engineered sound I've heard of any of the recordings.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Strauss 'is' very uneven inspirationally in his _oeuvre_, but I'll amiably endure some of the cloying, occasional note spinning to get to those higher and higher roseate ridges of his. After all, where are such peaks to be found?
> 
> I don't find most operas- including Verdi and Wagner- to be consistently inspired the whole way through- the _Ring _and _Tristan_ included.


Certainly nothing three or four hours long can be consistently inspired, if only because opera is drama, and not every dramatic moment can give rise to the most profound or intense musical expression. But I'd say that, at the very least, _Otello, Falstaff, Tristan_ and _Parsifal_ show sustained inspiration that comes about as near to consistent as their dramatic substance makes possible. Strauss comes closest, I think, in _Elektra_, mainly because the action is tight and he can pull out all his grand guignol stops and his most "modernist" effects. _Salome_ seems to exist largely for its final scene (Johnny Baptist is most interesting as a head), _Rosenkavalier_ has the loveliest moments but a lot of chatter and heavy-handed hoped-for humor, _Ariadne auf Naxos_ is highly entertaining if you enjoy all that debating and cavorting and terrible writing for tenor, _Arabella_ has me twiddling my thumbs waiting for some real music to start... I probably like _Die Frau_ best, but I wouldn't claim it's more than a personal preference. That "Falke" motif is magic; I'd love to see the score to know just how he did it.

Puccini rarely miscalculates or wastes a note; Verdi's early work has its share of conventional rum-ti-tum but is still unfailingly vigorous, and his late work hits the heights; Wagner's early work is very uneven stylistically but it's the awkwardness of an emerging giant, and his late works are just out of the otherwise known universe.

It's interesting to me that I like both Strauss and Mahler most in their songs, often finding their big dramatic (or, from Mahler, self-dramatizing) works something of a muchness. And I think they both found their deepest vein of beauty and feeling, all histrionics and bombast stripped away, with a group of orchestral songs at the ends of their lives.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I wonder why some find Strauss superior? He was certainly a virtuoso and rose to some magnificent moments, but I don't find his operas at all consistent, either in musical inspiration or in depth of expression. Wagner and Verdi in their maturity turned out masterpiece after masterpiece, and there are few lapses in Puccini once he hit his stride. *But for me even Strauss's best operas are up-and-down affairs, with plenty of not very eloquent note-spinning.*


Absotively, posilutely!


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Marschallin Blair said:


> An infectious Greg Mitchell suggestion isn't a request in my book, its a command.
> 
> I'll get it.
> 
> ...


I remember the performances getting raves in the press. I was still a student and living up in the North East of England, with absolutely no chance of coming down to London to see any of them. I was much more into Strauss in those days and Dernesch was (still is) one of my favourite singers. I hated missing it.


----------



## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I'm surprised to see others rating Puccini below so many (most?) other first-rank opera composers. He's far from a personal favorite of mine (mainly a temperamental thing), but as a maker of music, and specifically of dramatic music, I think he's brilliant, and right up there with the best of them, surpassed only by Wagner and Verdi in their different ways. As musical works _and_ as effective theater, I find _La Boheme _and _Madama Butterfly_ among the greatest operas ever written, and several of his other operas not far behind.
> 
> I wonder why some find Strauss superior? He was certainly a virtuoso and rose to some magnificent moments, but I don't find his operas at all consistent, either in musical inspiration or in depth of expression. Wagner and Verdi in their maturity turned out masterpiece after masterpiece, and there are few lapses in Puccini once he hit his stride. But for me even Strauss's best operas are up-and-down affairs, with plenty of not very eloquent note-spinning.


I prefer to listen to the inconsistency of Strauss over the overwrought Puccini.

_Der Rosenkavalier_ and _Ariadne auf Naxos_ are wonderful mixes of the comic and the dramatic. At one point I thought to myself that I really wished I could see the story of Ariadne and Bacchus straight, without being interrupted by Zerbinetta and her crew, but that's the trick. The Ariadne/Bacchus parts are wonderful rather than overwrought because they are disturbed, undercut.

Similarly, _Der Rosenkavalier_ can be played serious, sentimentally, and sure, such a "traditional"-style production can be dull. But that isn't how Strauss intended it; this is a Komödie für Musik. The Italian singer's piece is supposed to be enjoyable, but it's also supposed to be hilarious.

Much of the satire of these works is directed at Puccini, and that style of work. I think Puccini is fine at what he was doing, but I don't like what he was doing.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

mountmccabe said:


> I prefer to listen to the inconsistency of Strauss over the overwrought Puccini.
> 
> _Der Rosenkavalier_ and _Ariadne auf Naxos_ are wonderful mixes of the comic and the dramatic. At one point I thought to myself that I really wished I could see the story of Ariadne and Bacchus straight, without being interrupted by Zerbinetta and her crew, but that's the trick. The Ariadne/Bacchus parts are wonderful rather than overwrought because they are disturbed, undercut.
> 
> ...


Funny thing is, I'm not a Puccini lover either. He's one of those composers whose artistic brilliance impresses me more than his message. I would have to agree that Strauss's operas are more interesting in concept than Puccini's. I've never seen a Strauss opera in the theater (maybe _Ariadne_ would be interesting to see), so I base my impressions on the music and libretto only, and I find Puccini's works musically "tight" and consistently expressive in a way that Strauss's tend not to be. There's just too much cerebral talk and busy orchestral note-spinning between the great moments; I could dispense with over half of _Rosenkavalier_ and not feel I'd missed anything musically important. I'm sure some people find that grunting pig Ochs, all those little brats yelling "Papa," and that whining Mariandl (or whatever he/she calls him/herself) amusing, but they'd make me want to run out of the theater. Give me the presentation of the rose, and the trio to the end of the opera, and I'm happy.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Funny thing is, I'm not a Puccini lover either. He's one of those composers whose artistic brilliance impresses me more than his message. I would have to agree that Strauss's operas are more interesting in concept than Puccini's. I've never seen a Strauss opera in the theater (maybe _Ariadne_ would be interesting to see), so I base my impressions on the music and libretto only, and I find Puccini's works musically "tight" and consistently expressive in a way that Strauss's tend not to be. There's just too much cerebral talk and busy orchestral note-spinning between the great moments; I could dispense with over half of _Rosenkavalier_ and not feel I'd missed anything musically important. I'm sure some people find that grunting pig Ochs, all those little brats yelling "Papa," and that whining Mariandl (or whatever he/she calls him/herself) amusing, but they'd make me want to run out of the theater. Give me the presentation of the rose, and the trio to the end of the opera, and I'm happy.


My first exposure to *Der Rosenkavalier* was in the theatre, and, though I researched story and circumstances of composition before going, I hadn't heard a note of the music. It was an absolutely splendid, traditional production by Anthony Besch for Scottish Opera, with Helga Dernesch sublime as the Marschallin (I've seen quite a few since, and none of them have quite matched her). I don't remember being bored for a minute, and though the moments you mention stick out in my memory, I don't remember all the Ochs stuff irritating me at all, as it can do on recordings. Maybe it was just really well done.

Anyway, I loved the performance so much that I went back to see the last one of the run, and bought the Schwarzkopf/Karajan recording as soon as I had the funds for the outlay.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

*


Woodduck said:



Certainly nothing three or four hours long can be consistently inspired, if only because opera is drama, and not every dramatic moment can give rise to the most profound or intense musical expression.

Click to expand...

*









And why not apply this exacting dramatic standard to _Parsifal_ every bit as much as _Die Frau ohne Schatten_?

After all, if one is to suspend genuflections before an opera that is theoretically its superior- no, I'm not thinking of _Parsifal_- then its surely not ungenerous to withhold it from one surely not less than its equal.
_
;DDDD_


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

*


GregMitchell said:



My first exposure to Der Rosenkavalier was in the theatre, and, though I researched story and circumstances of composition before going, I hadn't heard a note of the music. It was an absolutely splendid, traditional production by Anthony Besch for Scottish Opera, with Helga Dernesch sublime as the Marschallin (I've seen quite a few since, and none of them have quite matched her). I don't remember being bored for a minute, and though the moments you mention stick out in my memory, I don't remember all the Ochs stuff irritating me at all, as it can do on recordings. Maybe it was just really well done.

Anyway, I loved the performance so much that I went back to see the last one of the run, and bought the Schwarzkopf/Karajan recording as soon as I had the funds for the outlay.

Click to expand...

*Ochs doesn't irritate me- after all, he's 'salon fodder' for laughing at in the drawing room.

A troll like Alberich on the other hand is certainly a mixed bag.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Marschallin Blair said:


>


Hey, that one looks interesting. I did not see it when I was surfing the web for this opera.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

*


Florestan said:



Hey, that one looks interesting. I did not see it when I was surfing the web for this opera.

Click to expand...

*I love the Karajan/Rysanek _Die Frau ohne Schatten_, but be forewarned about the thin, boxy, flat, and occasionally distorted sound.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Ochs doesn't irritate me- after all, he's 'salon fodder' for laughing at in the drawing room.
> 
> A troll like Alberich on the other hand is certainly a mixed bag.


I have no idea what a "mixed bag" is in this context, or why Alberich is a reasonable point of comparison. Beckmesser might be more to the point. But whatever you may be driving at, Ochs certainly isn't "mixed" (though he may be a bag). He's a superficial and obnoxious buffoon, and quite without the unexpected grandeur and even sympathy that Wagner's superior music and dramatic conception bestow upon Alberich, who is considerably more than a "troll." As for Ochs being funny - well, that _is_ the sole reason for his existence, but humor is a very individual thing. A clever and personable actor can make any character worth watching, but that will never make me enjoy _listening_ to his "music," especially given the amount of time he takes up (time I'll never get back). And that whining Mariandl! The two of them should just go off to a cheap motel immediately and spare us all.

Games of tit for tat aren't very informative, are they? But at least choose a reasonable parallel.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

GregMitchell said:


> My first exposure to *Der Rosenkavalier* was in the theatre, and, though I researched story and circumstances of composition before going, I hadn't heard a note of the music. It was an absolutely splendid, traditional production by Anthony Besch for Scottish Opera, with Helga Dernesch sublime as the Marschallin (I've seen quite a few since, and none of them have quite matched her). I don't remember being bored for a minute, and though the moments you mention stick out in my memory, I don't remember all the Ochs stuff irritating me at all, as it can do on recordings. Maybe it was just really well done.
> 
> Anyway, I loved the performance so much that I went back to see the last one of the run, and bought the Schwarzkopf/Karajan recording as soon as I had the funds for the outlay.


My first experience of it was when I saw the first Karajan film as a teenager at the local cinema. No subtitles in those days so I only had a very rough idea what was going on. Those were the days when you actually saw what the composer intended rather than some directors mock-up.


----------



## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

GregMitchell said:


> My first exposure to *Der Rosenkavalier* was in the theatre, and, though I researched story and circumstances of composition before going, I hadn't heard a note of the music. It was an absolutely splendid, traditional production by Anthony Besch for Scottish Opera, with Helga Dernesch sublime as the Marschallin (I've seen quite a few since, and none of them have quite matched her). I don't remember being bored for a minute, and though the moments you mention stick out in my memory, I don't remember all the Ochs stuff irritating me at all, as it can do on recordings. Maybe it was just really well done.
> 
> Anyway, I loved the performance so much that I went back to see the last one of the run, and bought the Schwarzkopf/Karajan recording as soon as I had the funds for the outlay.


I remember seeing the Scottish Opera production with Dernesch too. Those were the glory days of SO. You could regularly see singers of that calibre. I remember seeing Janet Baker in Ariadne and the great Charles Craig as Otello. Nowadays they can hardly do a full season.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Barbebleu said:


> I remember seeing the Scottish Opera production with Dernesch too. Those were the glory days of SO. You could regularly see singers of that calibre. I remember seeing Janet Baker in Ariadne and the great Charles Craig as Otello. Nowadays they can hardly do a full season.


Those were the days indeed. English National Opera was also a great company, and attracted singers of the calibre of Janet Baker, Josephine Barstow, Valerie Masterson, Charles Craig, with production values consistently high. What happened to that company? It's my guess that the arts started to suffer when creatives were given a back seat and marketing people and accountants started making the decisions. We live in a much more prosaic world these days.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I am really enjoying this opera. It just seems to get better with every listen. Can hardly wait for my DVD to arrive:









But every time I listen I can't stop thinking, why didn't Waltraud Meier record this opera?


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Florestan said:


> I am really enjoying this opera. It just seems to get better with every listen. Can hardly wait for my DVD to arrive:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Perhaps she didn't like it


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Well, Waltraud or not, I still like it! 

Is it a curious thing about this opera that there is no overture? Or is that not uncommon in the world of opera? Perhaps more of a modern movement to not have an overture?


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Florestan said:


> Well, Waltraud or not, I still like it!
> 
> Is it a curious thing about this opera that there is no overture? Or is that not uncommon in the world of opera? Perhaps more of a modern movement to not have an overture?


Lots of 20th century operas lack overtures, but the practice began even earlier. Strauss, Puccini, and the "verismo" school typically minimize the introductory music before the action begins, Verdi's last two operas, _Otello_ and _Falstaff,_ start with a bang, he discarded the overture he'd originally written for _Aida_, and even Wagner, with his fondness for leisurely preludes, cuts the intro to a minimum in _Gotterdammerung._ I'm having difficulty thinking of a 20th-century opera with an extended overture.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I am thinking a second video of this opera may be worth a shot. I have the Solti DVD (post 66 above). Any suggestions?


----------



## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

I am surprised no one gives much of a nod to Deborah Voigt's performances of this role. Personally I enjoy the Sinopoli-Voigt-Heppner recording of this, although that is due in no small measure to my having seen her in _Die Frau Ohne Schatten_ at Covent Garden a few years pre-little black dress, say 2001 or 2002. She was magnificent and munificent, and matching her in size and volume but falling far short in vocal beauty was the late Johan Botha as the Emperor. Gabriele Schnaut sang the Dyer's Wife there, and she was quite memorable as well.

Kind Regards, :tiphat:

George


----------



## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Die Frau has long been one of my favorite operas . I've loved it since I was a teenager. I have Solti conducting it both on DVD live from Salzburg and the Decca CD , and wouldn't want to be without either. 
They have the advantage of being absolutely uncut . The only other uncut performance on either CD or DVD is with Sawallisch conducting on EMI. This is also a very fine performance . 
The Decca studio recording has the luxury casting of Placido Domingo as the emperor , a role he never sang on stage . Both have the magnificent playing of the Vienna Philharmonic - THE Strauss orchestra , with the possible exception of the Staatskapelle, Dresden . 
I also have a soft spot for the earlier Decca recording conducted by Karl Boehm, from the 1950s, with Rysanek as the empress . This was the first recording of Die Frau, and though somewhat cut, it's still magnificent .


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

> The Decca studio recording has the luxury casting of Placido Domingo as the emperor , a role he never sang on stage . Both have the magnificent playing of the Vienna Philharmonic - THE Strauss orchestra , with the possible exception of the Staatskapelle, Dresden


And sublime recorded also .


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Lots of 20th century operas lack overtures, but the practice began even earlier. Strauss, Puccini, and the "verismo" school typically minimize the introductory music before the action begins, Verdi's last two operas, _Otello_ and _Falstaff,_ start with a bang, he discarded the overture he'd originally written for _Aida_, and even Wagner, with his fondness for leisurely preludes, cuts the intro to a minimum in _Gotterdammerung._ I'm having difficulty thinking of a 20th-century opera with an extended overture.


One reason for the overture was that opera was seen as a social event where peopke would meet and chat. The overture gave them time to settle down a bit. Wagner was thought revolutionary as he had his seats at Bayreuth facing the front!


----------



## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

DavidA , Die Schweigsame Frau by Richard Strauss, which dates from the 1930s, is unusual in having a full fledged overture based on themes from the opera . It's one of the most underrated operas of the 20th century IMHO, and the Met has never done it . They should. 
The plot might be described as "Don Pasquale meets Pirates of the Caribbean ! " The overture is a kind of old fashioned Italian opera buffs one of the Rossinian kind. If Der Rpsenkavalier and Ariadne Auf Naxos have been described as the composer's tribute to Mozart opera, Die Schweigsame Frau right be called his tribute to Rossinian opera buffs .


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

silentio said:


> I like this opera, especially the way Strauss develops the psychologies of the two women, the Empress and Barak's wife. The score is luxurious, even tiresome sometimes ("too many notes" ). The last act seems to be an oratorio itself.
> 
> Leonie Rysanek is pretty much the gold standard for the role of the Empress. I don't own any recordings of this opera, but if I need to listen to it, I usually go to the one conducted by Bohm with Rysanek, Nilsson, and Berry etc available on Spotify.
> 
> ...


I have that set (and two others on DVD) but unfortunately Act III won't play on my set. Will have to watch for a bargain copy to come up some day.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I really want to get to know this opera better, but with my eyeballs, I have no desire to read librettos from CD booklets, so I just ordered this for about $8 shipped:


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> _Die Frau_ is my favorite Strauss opera. He never had a more apt story - magical occurrences and supernatural beings - on which to unleash his orchestral virtuosity. No overdressed pseudo-Viennese marshmallows here. Just some good, pretentious post-Wagnerian mumbo-jumbo.


I found this page from a recent Die Frau production and the interview (scroll down past the images) with the director is very interesting (for a novice like me at least). Fans of Die Frau may appreciate it.
https://vincenthuguet.com/opera/die-frau-ohne-schatten/


----------



## mparta (Sep 29, 2020)

Barelytenor said:


> I am surprised no one gives much of a nod to Deborah Voigt's performances of this role. Personally I enjoy the Sinopoli-Voigt-Heppner recording of this, although that is due in no small measure to my having seen her in _Die Frau Ohne Schatten_ at Covent Garden a few years pre-little black dress, say 2001 or 2002. She was magnificent and munificent, and matching her in size and volume but falling far short in vocal beauty was the late Johan Botha as the Emperor. Gabriele Schnaut sang the Dyer's Wife there, and she was quite memorable as well.
> 
> Kind Regards, :tiphat:
> 
> George


YES! I also heard Deborah Voigt (at the Met) and despite the usual exorbitant prices, went back to hear her again, hers was one of the great performances I've heard in the theater. At the same time, she did a concert Egyptian Helen in concert that in no way matched her performance as the Empress at the Met. But that was wonderful, Frau ohne Schatten seemed to bring out her best.
The stupidity of that black dress business
I would think that Gabriele Schnaut would be memorable, I just wonder if in a positive way? Not an attractive voice, I think.


----------



## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> _Die Frau_ is my favorite Strauss opera. He never had a more apt story - magical occurrences and supernatural beings - on which to unleash his orchestral virtuosity. No overdressed pseudo-Viennese marshmallows here. Just some good, pretentious post-Wagnerian mumbo-jumbo.


Now THAT is funny  !!! Thank goodnes the grossly sartorial quasi Austro-Hungarian fluff he subjected us to has been remedied by positively posturing neo-Nietzcshe-influenced claptrap!.....PS...I was finally reduced to the synonym finder for mumbo jumbo!


----------



## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> I'm surprised to see others rating Puccini below so many (most?) other first-rank opera composers. He's far from a personal favorite of mine (mainly a temperamental thing), but as a maker of music, and specifically of dramatic music, I think he's brilliant, and right up there with the best of them, surpassed only by Wagner and Verdi in their different ways. As musical works _and_ as effective theater, I find _La Boheme _and _Madama Butterfly_ among the greatest operas ever written, and several of his other operas not far behind.
> 
> I wonder why some find Strauss superior? He was certainly a virtuoso and rose to some magnificent moments, but I don't find his operas at all consistent, either in musical inspiration or in depth of expression. Wagner and Verdi in their maturity turned out masterpiece after masterpiece, and there are few lapses in Puccini once he hit his stride. But for me even Strauss's best operas are up-and-down affairs, with plenty of not very eloquent note-spinning.


As a Strauss lover I would point to the "pseudo Viennese Marshmallows" (not looking back but I think I got your phrase!) I love above the others, not because I love it the most but because I believe its Transcendant qualities come from the Strauss/Hoffmansthall marriage! I always loved it, the sound, the picture and towering over everything, the Marschallin! And then I heard it for the first time with the titles! By the time the second act was kicking into gear I was going "is there any line in here which doesn't contibute to the over-all theme .... lets just call it "loves ache" for now... and help build this thing to that amazing end? And when Hoffmansthall is at his best he brings the best out in Strauss...word and Harmony, in the last 25 minutes of Act one, have left me unable to applaud....That has not happened too often. And as to the up and down thing...(maybe thats a major determinant in what we love...how much does the less inspired part lose us or keep us?) Boheme Act 2 ("You're calling Act 2 a down???") vs Rosenkavalier Inn Scene? For me, purely music, I'd go with Puccini. Music and word, I'm back eating Marshmallows!

And even though it is not what I was responding to, I have to ask....do you really think that Puccini as a "maker of music and specifically dramatic music" is not surpassed by Mozart? I haven't read the subsequent posts but you must have been hanging that omission out there like a worm on a hook!


----------



## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

Quite an interesting thread you've resurrected. Sorry to argue with a years old post, but I can't resist putting in my two cents.



mountmccabe said:


> At one point I thought to myself that I really wished I could see the story of Ariadne and Bacchus straight, without being interrupted by Zerbinetta and her crew, but that's the trick. The Ariadne/Bacchus parts are wonderful rather than overwrought because they are disturbed, undercut.


Strauss "undercutting" his kitsch with a knowing wink doesn't make it deep it just makes it insincere. "Seeing through" something that is supposedly so transparently fake isn't much of an accomplishment. I much prefer Puccini's "excesses" (when they are real) since I at least believe he means them. Most of the time, though, one finds that Puccini's music is perfectly apt. He often uses irony, and quite subtly. For example he "undercuts" the death of Mimi in _boheme_ by ending the opera with the final cadence from Vecchi zimarra. There are a number of interesting possible interpretations of that move if one takes it seriously. But the point here is not to say "see that was kitsch! I know it too!" He means Mimi's death seriously. It's the cruel irony of life, not of the all too self-conscious artist. Puccini even makes an ironic commentary on the death of Mimi in the peddler's song from _Il tabarro_ twenty years later, but this time she dies alone, as befits the much darker world of that opera where the naive Romantic illusions of _boheme_ are a mere memory from the beginning of the opera. Puccini's operas are filled with these little ironies that I think many people take as a "mean streak" in his work. Perhaps it was, but taken in context, I think, they show that he was a highly observant person who wasn't totally lost in emotional reverie as some would have it.

Strauss's operas are to me the definition of musical clutter. He throws out so much that has no dramatic purpose. If it was intended to be a parody of Puccini, it's a terrible one, because Puccini's virtues of simplicity, economy, clarity, and forward motion are noted even by his critics.


----------



## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

vivalagentenuova said:


> Puccini's virtues of simplicity, economy, clarity, and forward motion are noted even by his critics.


not by ben ........


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ScottK said:


> As a Strauss lover I would point to the "pseudo Viennese Marshmallows" (not looking back but I think I got your phrase!) I love above the others, not because I love it the most but because I believe its Transcendant qualities come from the Strauss/Hoffmansthall marriage! I always loved it, the sound, the picture and towering over everything, the Marschallin! And then I heard it for the first time with the titles! By the time the second act was kicking into gear I was going "is there any line in here which doesn't contibute to the over-all theme .... lets just call it "loves ache" for now... and help build this thing to that amazing end? And *when Hoffmansthall is at his best he brings the best out in Strauss...word and Harmony,* in the last 25 minutes of Act one, have left me unable to applaud....That has not happened too often. And as to the up and down thing...(maybe thats a major determinant in what we love...how much does the less inspired part lose us or keep us?) Boheme Act 2 ("You're calling Act 2 a down???") vs Rosenkavalier Inn Scene? For me, purely music, I'd go with Puccini. Music and word, I'm back eating Marshmallows!
> 
> And even though it is not what I was responding to, I have to ask....*do you really think that Puccini as a "maker of music and specifically dramatic music" is not surpassed by Mozart?* I haven't read the subsequent posts but you must have been hanging that omission out there like a worm on a hook!


To answer your last question first: yes, I _do_ think that Puccini as a maker of dramatic music is not surpassed by Mozart (there's no point in comparing them in any other kind of music, for obvious reasons). If sheer theatrical effectiveness - dramatic shape, pacing, and the ability to trace emotional shifts in real time - is at issue, I'd say that Puccini at his best is not surpassed, and is rarely equaled, by anyone.

As to _Rosenkavalier,_ what you rhapsodize over - Hoffmansthal's libretto-making - is precisely what makes the opera a bit tedious for me. The art of the librettist, as distinct from that of the playwright, consists in providing an efficient framework in which music can flower unimpeded. A talky, intellectually sophisticated libretto is always in danger of not coming across when sung in a theater; in most operatic music, music wants to dominate a marriage with words, and so it should (songs like Sondheim's have roots in a different stylistic tradition). But, more important, a wordy libretto is likely to drag the musical inspiration down. Making mundane conversation and witty repartee into interesting music is a great challenge to any composer, and a good librettist will seek to minimize the problem.

I find Strauss's scores very uneven in musical interest, and I believe his attachment to the talk, talk, talk of Hoffmansthal to be a major part of the problem. In his operas I love the moments of high lyricism; _Rosenkavalier_'s presentation of the rose, its Italian singer, and its trio are as gorgeous as anything in music. But I'm unlikely ever again to subject myself to the interminable, pompous chatter of Baron Ochs, the leaden humor of that awful whining woman pretending to be a man pretending to be a woman, or that gang of screaming brats running across the stage. I could put all the music of the opera I really care about onto half a CD, the other half of which would contain all the music I really care about from _Salome_ (the final scene) and _Elektra_ (the recognition scene, and maybe Elektra's opening monologue).

Strauss is a clever and resourceful enough composer to keep the notes bustling and spinning and keep us awake (usually) even when he isn't saying anything, but if he'd had a librettist like Boito, one more focused on what's really needed for musical expression rather than on a display of wit, _Rosenkavalier_ would be a shorter and better opera, and a work like _Arabella_ might not exist at all.


----------



## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> Mozart (there's no point in comparing them in any other kind of music, for obvious reasons).


True, but I honestly wouldn't mind people expressing views like: "When comparing the tasks of creating Tristan to Le Nozze is it even debatable that Wagner's was the greater achievement?" -Bonetan


----------



## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> To answer your last question first: yes, I _do_ think that Puccini as a maker of dramatic music is not surpassed by Mozart (there's no point in comparing them in any other kind of music, for obvious reasons). If sheer theatrical effectiveness - dramatic shape, pacing, and the ability to trace emotional shifts in real time - is at issue, I'd say that Puccini at his best is not surpassed, and is rarely equaled, by anyone.
> 
> As to _Rosenkavalier,_ what you rhapsodize over - Hoffmansthal's libretto-making - is precisely what makes the opera a bit tedious for me. The art of the librettist, as distinct from that of the playwright, consists in providing an efficient framework in which music can flower unimpeded. A talky, intellectually sophisticated libretto is always in danger of not coming across when sung in a theater; in most operatic music, music wants to dominate a marriage with words, and so it should (songs like Sondheim's have roots in a different stylistic tradition). But, more important, a wordy libretto is likely to drag the musical inspiration down. Making mundane conversation and witty repartee into interesting music is a great challenge to any composer, and a good librettist will seek to minimize the problem.
> 
> ...


You're unquestionably consistent in the reasoning of the two different answers. And of course I share your take that the music dominates the interplay of word and music ( Strauss liked the question but did a poor job of turning it into an opera in Capriccio) as I cannot ever remember being told that anyone's primary passion was for Hoffmansthal's Rosenkavalier or DaPonte's Figaro. We're probably, more than anything else, at a divergence in taste....one of your posts, I'm pretty sure, ended a reflection with "Chacun"! But as for my "gout"--- (hope that means what I think it means)

Puccini/ Strauss in opera: I think Puccini attempted far less and, because he had a giant talent, succeeded at a larger percentage of what he attempted. I'm comparing giant to giant.

I do love and respect Puccini but, I'm sure, not as much as you. Love Boheme, like Tosca and Turandot ( which I've never seen and hope the seeing will lead to love) very much, do not care for Butterfly- (I'm a "male-voices" guy). Don't know much else but am probably most interested in Fanciulla, which I would prefer to first experience onstage. Had a dear friend who resented to his core that Puccini did not receive top-shelf esteem.

What I find Puccini lacking in - until possibly Turandot - was not skill or theatrical judgement or the ability to write great music or the ability to bring what he saw to life beautifully AND succinctly. It's that his formulaic story-telling (girl meets boy, girl loses boy, girl finds boy, girl kills herself) kept his results......similar.....kept them resembling each other, and kept coming to the same conclusions. He unquestionably was true to himself and I wouldn't change him for a second. And it looks like in Turandot he was attempting something much more expansive. God only knows what he would have accomplished if only...! But when compared to Mozart and Wagner and Verdi at their best, the attempt is dramatically less bold. For me his virtue is his weakness...his scope was narrow. He travelled the world for dramatic locales but had the characters function in the same romantic, impetuous way in all of those settings. I don't put Strauss's accomplishment in the Mozart,Verdi,Wagner group (although for me, it's not far away) but I put his vision in that group. To me it's a little like (try and say THIS without sounding like a cultural snob) Neil Simon compared to Chekhov. Simon's success rate, when measured by appeal to a modern audience, is much higher. But the vision - portray the humanity and humor in the life you grew up in vs portray the elements in human nature that led to the crumbling of an entire society's way of living - doesn't take as many risks, doesn't consider as many sides and facets of each situation. Because Puccini prioritizes telling a good story, he doesn't give as many opportunities to enter the life of the listener........... or to put it another way......I grew up in a long-winded family so I'm used to long un-entertaining spells!

Point of possible connection!!!! I love Walkure, Rheingold. Interested and hope to find Gotterdammerung. I've listened to Derrick Cooke explaining the leitmotifs in their various forms. Might as well be Chinese! I get the idea of themes! I recognize familiar tunes! I can make an association! But DO NOT intentionally send me off into my head. If what happens onstage creates a thought, great! But a complex system based on themes???......not for me. I'm glad it helped him create masterpieces but I'll probably remain outside of a big part of that party.

PS. I do have to say " the ability to trace emotional shifts in real time", .....I can't possibly give that to Puccini over Mozart. Over a hundred years earlier I find Mozart's - Figaro and Cosi again and again, Flute a lot - emotional shifts more modern, psychologically recognizable and less dependent on the more obvious gestures of good vs bad and romantic love.


----------



## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

hammeredklavier said:


> True, but I honestly wouldn't mind people expressing views like: "When comparing the tasks of creating Tristan to Le Nozze is it even debatable that Wagner's was the greater achievement?" -Bonetan


I assumed the inability to compare them in other music had nothing to do with qualitative comparisons and was based on the fact that Puccini, essentially, wrote only opera.

But the way you put your question sounds intriguing....." comparing the task of creating....Wagner's was the greater achievment"!

I can't think of how to begin answering such a question. Why don't you start a thread and, of course, start the discussion with your take?


----------



## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Actually, bringing up Wagner - in which as I reread I see I did not really make the point I thought I was going to make - put a different question in my mind… What must you make of Tristan?


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ScottK said:


> Actually, bringing up Wagner - in which as I reread I see I did not really make the point I thought I was going to make - put a different question in my mind… What must you make of Tristan?


My personal feeling about _Tristan_ is that it's the most astonishing and subversive eruption of creativity in the whole history of music in general and of opera in particular. The very idea of a three-hour-plus opera devoted entirely to the dissection, exaltation and intensification to the point of exhaustion of all-consuming erotic passion, in which all the hard facts of everyday reality are experienced as hostile and tragic yet ultimately insignificant, is outrageous, inconceivable, and unrepeatable, and only Wagner could have imagined it and pulled it off.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ScottK said:


> Point of possible connection!!!! I love Walkure, Rheingold. Interested and hope to find Gotterdammerung. I've listened to Derrick Cooke explaining the leitmotifs in their various forms. Might as well be Chinese! I get the idea of themes! I recognize familiar tunes! I can make an association! But DO NOT intentionally send me off into my head. If what happens onstage creates a thought, great! But a complex system based on themes???......not for me. I'm glad it helped him create masterpieces but I'll probably remain outside of a big part of that party.


Wagner's leitmotif method was initially accused by some of being a mechanical, cerebral "system." Other early listeners experienced it differently, as a "stream of consciousness" (or subconsciousness) that revealed inner meanings, expressed the unspoken, the forgotten and the repressed, and brought past, present and future together in the moment. The second group had it right.

The experience of perceiving thematic transformation as an expression of dramatic development isn't necessarily one of being "sent off into one's head," implying that one's head is best kept unemployed while watching or listening to an opera. What matters most of the time is what happens in one's subconscious, which naturally causes flashes of conscious awareness but needn't be disrupted by them. Moreover, on top of the motifs' dramatic function is the musical unity imparted by their use and variation, the virtuosity of which can be perceived and enjoyed in its own right.

I've found that repeated listening to Wagner's late scores gives me the experience of a cosmos opening up slowly, a world of meaningful sound that expands to reveal secret after secret. It isn't an experience of going off into my head, but of having my head transported and transformed for a few hours and beyond. Every serious work of art seeks to transport us, of course, but Wagner's are more complex and layered than most. His transformation of themes is a primary means of conveying that complexity, and it does so effectively by working on us beneath the level of conscious identification. It's wonderful - astonishing, actually - to discover in a flash of recogntion that the tender, rapturous melody of _Parsifal'_s Good Friday Spell is simply a transmutation of the hero's bold fanfare motif, but the naturalness with which it arises whether or not we understand how it works its magic is sufficient for us until the revelation of its dramatic meaning strikes us. And when that realization comes, we will not resent the participation of conscious awareness in enlarging our appreciation of what the work is telling us.


----------



## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> My personal feeling about _Tristan_ is that it's the most astonishing and subversive eruption of creativity in the whole history of music in general and of opera in particular. The very idea of a three-hour-plus opera devoted entirely to the dissection, exaltation and intensification to the point of exhaustion of all-consuming erotic passion, in which all the hard facts of everyday reality are experienced as hostile and tragic yet ultimately insignificant, is outrageous, inconceivable, and unrepeatable, and only Wagner could have imagined it and pulled it off.


Well!!! You certainly have found a richer response than me, every time I think of the Tristan libretto, hearing Sheena Easton singing "night time is the right time, we make love." And having said that - and that's about where Ive gotten so far, after two performances 25 years apart - I can say that my desire to find what the shoutins all about with Tristan remains intact! I give it up and storm away saying "it's only sound, that is NOT a great opera" but then go " I love his music and this is supposed to be the peak!" And the curiosity comes back. Started working at it before going the second time, but I started with act one and, at least through headphones, it didn't add to my appreciation. Does your intense response extend to act one? Maybe after the potion? By the end of that second performance I had, dissapointingly not travelled farther in my response, not unlike yours to Rosenkavalier....Prelude, duet, liebestod are as good as it gets. Tristan, King Marke wailing away for a half hour each made me want to yell out, at the fifteen minute mark, SHUT UP AND LET ME LISTEN TO THE ORCHESTRA!!! But I remain hopeful. Of course, everything is not for everyone but I'd like to at least find more of it. I don't have to get where you are, wonderfully intense as you make it sound, but I do want more. Unless you find it a completely misguided approach, recommend another section and recording for me to spend time with. I'd be indebted!


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ScottK said:


> Well!!! You certainly have found a richer response than me, every time I think of the Tristan libretto, hearing Sheena Easton singing "night time is the right time, we make love." And having said that - and that's about where Ive gotten so far, after two performances 25 years apart - I can say that my desire to find what the shoutins all about with Tristan remains intact! I give it up and storm away saying "it's only sound, that is NOT a great opera" but then go " I love his music and this is supposed to be the peak!" And the curiosity comes back. Started working at it before going the second time, but I started with act one and, at least through headphones, it didn't add to my appreciation. Does your intense response extend to act one? Maybe after the potion? By the end of that second performance I had, dissapointingly not travelled farther in my response, not unlike yours to Rosenkavalier....Prelude, duet, liebestod are as good as it gets. Tristan, King Marke wailing away for a half hour each made me want to yell out, at the fifteen minute mark, SHUT UP AND LET ME LISTEN TO THE ORCHESTRA!!! But I remain hopeful. Of course, everything is not for everyone but I'd like to at least find more of it. I don't have to get where you are, wonderfully intense as you make it sound, but I do want more. Unless you find it a completely misguided approach, recommend another section and recording for me to spend time with. I'd be indebted!


My comments weren't primarily an expression of taste or a measure of enjoyment. _Tristan_ isn't something I want to experience every day, or even every month. I've gone years without listening to it, and most attempts to perform it disappoint me. Wagner always bit off more than any mere human can chew. The music's artistic distinction and significance are what they are whether anyone in particular - you, me or Uncle Zeke - likes it or not. It's a maniacal monster, and it just goes on chewing people up and spitting them out while we comfort ourselves among the rose bushes.

I lent a recording of the opera to a man who loved Mahler but didn't know Wagner very well. He got through about fifteen minutes of it and had to stop, not because he didn't "like" it - whatever that means with respect to this work - but because, he said, it was too intense. I'm glad I absorbed it at an age - 16 or so - when nothing could possibly strike me as too intense. I wonder how it would hit me if I were just discovering it now. I only know that in a performance that's really good - which even the best are inconsistently - it can still leave me in a slightly incredulous daze.

Don't worry if you never feel that way. As Nietzsche said, "The world is poor for one who has never been sick enough for this voluptuousness of hell."


----------



## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> My comments weren't primarily an expression of taste or a measure of enjoyment. _Tristan_ isn't something I want to experience every day, or even every month. I've gone years without listening to it, and most attempts to perform it disappoint me. Wagner always bit off more than any mere human can chew. The music's artistic distinction and significance are what they are whether anyone in particular - you, me or Uncle Zeke - like it or not. It's a maniacal monster, and it just goes on chewing people up and spitting them out while we comfort ourselves among the rose bushes.
> 
> I lent a recording of the opera to a man who loved Mahler but didn't know Wagner very well. He got through about fifteen minutes of it and had to stop, not because he didn't "like" it - whatever that means with respect to this work - but because, he said, it was too intense. I'm glad I absortbed it at an age - 16 or so - when nothing could possibly strike me as too intense. I wonder how it would hit me if I were just discovering it now. I only know that in a performance that's really good - which even the best are inconsistently - it can still leave me in a slightly incredulous daze.
> 
> Don't worry if you never feel that way. As Nietzsche said, "The world is poor for one who has never been sick enough for this voluptuousness of hell."


You make it sound darkly alluring, but your hints that where it takes you when it works for you are not the stuff of music 101 "open your Tristan to the love duet", are not lost on me. Your Auden-esque rose bushes ARE my cuppa but it sounds like you're being collegial by putting yourself there too. The Nietzsche sounds more like it. At least when dealing with Tristan!

Can't imagine that will suffice for my quest. Three was the magic charm for me with Meistersinger and most would have thought that pretty accessible. On a more pragmatic path to the pleasures of Tristan I believe I need to learn to listen to the singers less and the orchestra more. Here's to Nietzsche, orchestras and journeying, whether you get there or not!


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ScottK said:


> You make it sound darkly alluring, but your hints that where it takes you when it works for you are not the stuff of music 101 "open your Tristan to the love duet", are not lost on me. Your Auden-esque rose bushes ARE my cuppa but it sounds like you're being collegial by putting yourself there too. The Nietzsche sounds more like it. At least when dealing with Tristan!
> 
> Can't imagine that will suffice for my quest. Three was the magic charm for me with Meistersinger and most would have thought that pretty accessible. *On a more pragmatic path to the pleasures of Tristan I believe I need to learn to listen to the singers less and the orchestra more.* Here's to Nietzsche, orchestras and journeying, whether you get there or not!


There are rose bushes in _Tristan_, but Brangaene warns us (exquisitely) against lingering among them.

Sitting with a companion at a rehearsal for _Tristan,_ Wagner said "close your eyes and listen to the orchestra." I take that more as an expression of pride than a general recommendation, but in the age of recording we can do it more easily than his contemporaries and know what he was proud of.

Very helpful to a newbie can be one of several orchestral syntheses of passages from the opera. I love this one extravagantly:


----------



## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> There are rose bushes in _Tristan_, but Brangaene warns us (exquisitely) against lingering among them.
> 
> Sitting with a companion at a rehearsal for _Tristan,_ Wagner said "close your eyes and listen to the orchestra." I take that more as an expression of pride than a general recommendation, but in the age of recording we can do it more easily than his contemporaries and know what he was proud of.
> 
> Very helpful to a newbie can be one of several orchestral syntheses of passages from the opera. I love this one extravagantly:


Rapturously beautiful! I'll love having that, thank you much. Gorgeous.

Those parts , of course, are not the obstacles but having them in purely orchestral form is a delight.

Any other inspirations will be more than welcome!!!


----------



## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Tristan's death:

short with your man Jussi
or 
longer with Hans Bierer...get that right?

Which one? need I ask?


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ScottK said:


> Tristan's death:
> 
> short with your man Jussi
> or
> ...


You do need to ask (again), preferably not in haiku.


----------



## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> You do need to ask (again), preferably not in haiku.


Yeah idk what that's about. One of the weirdest posts I've seen on TC, and that's saying something.


----------



## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> You do need to ask (again), preferably not in haiku.


:lol::lol::lol:

My wife just gave me essentially the same dig...not quite as witty....for the way I was writing a Christmas card. Guess I'm the constant!

(I'm going to listen to) Tristan's death:
(should I listen to a) short ([email protected] 4 minutes worth) with your man Jussi (Bjoerling)
or
(a) longer (version @ 10 minutes worth) with Hans Bierer...(did I) get that (his name) right?

Which one (do you think I should listen to)? need I ask (since you express great regard for Jussi Bjoerling)


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ScottK said:


> :lol::lol::lol:
> 
> My wife just gave me essentially the same dig...not quite as witty....for the way I was writing a Christmas card. Guess I'm the constant!
> 
> ...


Bjorling never sang Tristan, and I'm unacquainted with Hans Bierer, so I still don't know what you're talking about.

If you can spare 14 minutes (which you clearly can), listen to both of whatever it is you're looking at and give us a review.


----------



## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> Bjorling never sang Tristan, and I'm unacquainted with Hans Bierer, so I still don't know what you're talking about.
> 
> If you can spare 14 minutes (which you clearly can), listen to both of whatever it is you're looking at and give us a review.


Alright, I've cleared up some space in my schedule. I'll be back.


----------



## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

ScottK said:


> :lol::lol::lol:
> 
> My wife just gave me essentially the same dig...not quite as witty....for the way I was writing a Christmas card. Guess I'm the constant!
> 
> ...


That would be Hans Beirer. He sang Tristan, Parsifal and Tannhäuser at Bayreuth between 1958 and 1962. A workhorse tenor who was serviceable at best. The Björling excerpt you are referring to is not Wagner. It is a song called Siegfried's Death by a Swedish composer called Ture Rangström.


----------



## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Barbebleu said:


> That would be Hans Beirer. He sang Tristan, Parsifal and Tannhäuser at Bayreuth between 1958 and 1962. A workhorse tenor who was serviceable at best. The Björling excerpt you are referring to is not Wagner. It is a song called Siegfried's Death by a Swedish composer called Ture Rangström


Thanks!

So it looks like I'm listening to Hans Bierer. Finding the music is my desire so maybe Hans will give me greater incentive to focus less on the voice.....not fair Hans, I know! Let me at least hear you before attempting insults.


----------



## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

ScottK said:


> Thanks!
> 
> So it looks like I'm listening to Hans Bierer. Finding the music is my desire so maybe Hans will give me greater incentive to focus less on the voice.....not fair Hans, I know! Let me at least hear you before attempting insults.


Or alternatively you could listen to Jon Vickers or even Hans Beirer, as opposed to the little known and misunderstood Hans Bierer!


----------



## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Barbebleu said:


> Or alternatively you could listen to Jon Vickers or even Hans Beirer, as opposed to the little known and misunderstood Hans Bierer!


I was playing with ya....good catch!

I started by looking for Vickers but it wasn't lying around as an excerpt. I'll stop being lazy and dig it out of a complete.
Vcikers it is!


----------



## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

ScottK said:


> I was playing with ya....good catch!
> 
> I started by looking for Vickers but it wasn't lying around as an excerpt. I'll stop being lazy and dig it out of a complete.
> Vcikers it is!


Clearly they breed 'em strange in Connetcicut


----------



## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> "I'm unacquainted with Hans Bierer...


Mr. Beirer appeared opposite Maria Callas in *Parsifal* in Rome, 1949. Not, alas in the recording from 1950. The name struck a memory chord - he was mentioned by Callas herself in a David Frost interview. When Callas was shy of kissing the tenor (Beirer) in the mouth during a scene together, conductor Tullio Serafin stopped the orchestra and demonstrated by kissing Beirer himself.


----------



## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> Bjorling never sang Tristan, and I'm unacquainted with Hans Bierer, so I still don't know what you're talking about.
> 
> If you can spare 14 minutes (which you clearly can), listen to both of whatever it is you're looking at and give us a review.


Okay so where were we???.....Oh yes...my new friend Barbebleu has insured that I will never again misspell Hans Bierer's name...those many, many times I will be using it through the years. And having listened I can now tell you that you may quell those urges to run out and get his recital album.(Mr. MAS, is there ANY tenor that flies beneath your radar?!) BUT... it is guys like him that keep an opera like Tristan before the public. And since there are us non-purists in the world who will listen to Wagner and Verdi even without Caruso,Ponselle, Flagstad or Melchior I will say that he allowed me to continue on this new approach of following Wagner's orders and listen to the orchestra. Couldn't close my eyes because I wanted to know what he was saying but the foray was promising!

Any gun-shy in me, of trusting the symphonic element in Tristan hugely, may originate in two performances of Elektra. In college I was somewhat ready for harsher sounds but maybe not that far. Elektra didn't do much for me. Years later, priding myself on my far more fully developed musical ear and eagerness to be pleased in less lyrical fashion, I was ready! Out came those thundering opening chords and I just sat back waiting for the ride to take me away!!!......still waiting. Thank God for the more successful harshness of Salome and more successful symphonicness of Die Frau!

PS Week off and family hanging about under the weather...my quantity will slow down


----------



## OffPitchNeb (Jun 6, 2016)

This opera starts strong, and after a lot of meandering, it becomes an oratorio.


----------



## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

OffPitchNeb said:


> This opera starts strong, and after a lot of meandering, it becomes an oratorio.


Was just wondering if you were referring to the opera the thread is about, Frau ohne Schatten Or the opera I was just rambling about, Elektra?


----------



## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

OffPitchNeb said:


> This opera starts strong, and after a lot of meandering, it becomes an oratorio.


Could you elaborate on your point more? I've been curious what is meant when people say "a non-oratorio work lapses into an oratorio";
"[Mozart's Requiem] is a masterpiece that combines the power and solemn dignity of the old music with the rich ornament of the new, and that can serve as a model in this respect, as also in its wisely handled orchestration, to church composers today . . . The Tuba mirum may perhaps be the one movement that lapses into oratorio style, but otherwise the music remains genuinely devotional throughout; pure devotion resonates through these awe-inspiring chords which speak of another world, and which in their singular dignity and power are themselves another world." -E.T.A. Hoffmann


----------



## Algreco316 (9 mo ago)

GioCar said:


> With my great regret I have just discovered that my CDs (at least 2 over 3) of the original Bohm issue
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That won't ruin your CDs. Just carefully wash them. It was more of a problem with vinyl LPs, especially in Philips boxes eg Bruckner Haitink, Mozart Haebler. I wash my LPs a lot more than CDs. Just wash your discs!


----------

