# Trouble with Wagner



## Muddy (Feb 5, 2012)

I have some exposure to Opera. I adore Mozart. I have greatly enjoyed some Verdi and Puccini. Plus, I have almost been knocked to my knees listening to the conclusion of Wagner's Tristan and Isolde. But so far, I can't embrace Wagner. Today I listened to the first hour or so of Tristan. The Prelude is awesome, but after that, where is the music? Every second of Mozart seems perfect, precise, calculated. I was also listening to The Magic Flute today, and it is so obviously a timeless masterpiece. But Wagner, all I hear is endless dialogue, shrieking or bellowing. Where is the melody? Granted, I am very new to Wagner, but I believe that I have a very good ear and I am struggling. The composer of the Liebestod must be a master, but I am so far not impressed.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

"Bellowing"? Perhaps you simply agree with John Ruskin. On Die Meistersinger: "Of all the bête, clumsy, blundering, boggling, baboon-blooded stuff I ever saw on a human stage, ... and of all the affected, sapless, soulless, beginningless, endless, topless, bottomless, topsiturviest, tongs and boniest doggerel of sounds I ever endured the deadliness of, that eternity of nothing was the deadliest, so far as the sound went. I never was so relieved, so far as I can remember in my life, by the stopping of any sound - not excepting railway whistles - as I was by the cessation of the cobbler's bellowing."


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## Muddy (Feb 5, 2012)

LOL, maybe! Thanks for the laugh.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

If you want to hear people yelling at each other in German, you can try also Carl Orff's _De Temporum Fine Comoedia / Play for the End of Time. _I suppose this is called a "declamatory" style. It might scare your neighbors if you play it too loud.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Muddy said:


> I have some exposure to Opera. I adore Mozart. I have greatly enjoyed some Verdi and Puccini. Plus, I have almost been knocked to my knees listening to the conclusion of Wagner's Tristan and Isolde. But so far, I can't embrace Wagner. Today I listened to the first hour or so of Tristan. The Prelude is awesome, but after that, where is the music? Every second of Mozart seems perfect, precise, calculated. I was also listening to The Magic Flute today, and it is so obviously a timeless masterpiece. But Wagner, all I hear is endless dialogue, shrieking or bellowing. Where is the melody? Granted, I am very new to Wagner, but I believe that I have a very good ear and I am struggling. The composer of the Liebestod must be a master, but I am so far not impressed.


Wagner is about the ebb and flow of the music, which may not seem to have "a melody" but remains lyrical throughout. If you're not used to later Romanticism, the abrupt changes of key and harsh dissonances might seem obtuse, but they're as perfectly calculated as Mozart.

It helps to be familiar with the leitmotif that he's using throughout, as some passages which might seem tonally bizarre are often structured around the repetition and/or development of certain important thematic ideas. Also, are you listening without the libretto? Wagner's music is at every moment a reflection of the on-stage action and the dialogue.


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## hreichgott (Dec 31, 2012)

I also love Mozart opera, and feel neutral about most other opera.
Maybe you were just exposed to the best too early?


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## Muddy (Feb 5, 2012)

Mahlerian, thanks for your input. I love Mahler, BTW. Yes, I was listening without the libretto, and it did occur to me that was part of the problem. Should I just buy some DVDs? I am sure that would help, but with Mozart, for example, I have never needed that. The music, regardless of the libretto, is sublime.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Muddy said:


> Mahlerian, thanks for your input. I love Mahler, BTW. Yes, I was listening without the libretto, and it did occur to me that was part of the problem. Should I just buy some DVDs? I am sure that would help, but with Mozart, for example, I have never needed that. The music, regardless of the libretto, is sublime.


Wagner doesn't necessarily _need_ the libretto either, but it helps to understand quickly why this or that happens in the music, which is structured pretty freely to the stage action, rather than in a series of arias, duets, and choruses, as in Mozart's day (and many opera composers since Wagner have followed his lead).

If you can at least follow along in music, a vocal score with (poor) English translation is enough:
http://javanese.imslp.info/files/im...Wagner_-_Tristan_und_Isolde__vocal_score_.pdf

If you can't, well, at least for the first time you might want to either buy a CD set with libretto, a DVD, or look for a translation online (that's not in copyright). Wagner librettos might also be obtainable through a local library.

After the first time, it'll be easy to follow what's going on anyway, so the libretto will be less necessary.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Muddy, I got this libretto to the Ring cycle cheap, used. Still a bargain. Seems very good to me.

http://www.amazon.com/Ring-Nibelung...47&sr=1-1&keywords=wagner+ring+cycle+libretto


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

to the OP: liking something should come without so much fretting. Relax and let it wow you - or not wow you, whichever may be.


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## Muddy (Feb 5, 2012)

deggial, I am all set to be wowed. I listen to new music with giddy excitement. I am not fretting. I am just sharing my very early listening experience with Wagner. Now, if it doesn't wow me, I will drop it. But I'm not giving up yet.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Wagner's operas (or music dramas as he called those after Lohengrin) are through composed .That is, instead of consisting of discrete arias, duets,trios,choruses and recitatives which can easily be detached from the whole, the music is continuous from the beginning of each act to the ending of that act .Or in the case of Das Rheingold, first part of the Ring, fpur continuous scenes which procede non stop with orchestral interludes in-between .
So they are constructed almost like dramas ; instead of traditional arias, there are parts which are like monologues rather than arias which come to a close and where the audence can applaud until the action continues .
The orchestra does not provide a simple accompaniment which is of no interest on its own as with so many other operas , but is rather an integral part of the action . The scoring is far more complex than previous operas and the music has been described as "symphonic " . It's rather ike the character's stram of consciousness .
This is not to say that the vocal lines are less important than previous or more conventional operas of Wagner's day ; it's just that they are not the main thing, or the only important part . 
Wagner's use of leitmotifs, or brief melodic ideas which characterize different characters or represent important parts of the drama such as a magic sword, the fortress Valhalla, the magic ring , etc are not used merely to identify the characters as many have wrongly assumed, but are an integral part of the miusic and action and these leitmotifs are constantly developing and changing through the course of the drama and are often combined polyphonicaly with each other .
There is absolutely no lack of melody in Wagner as many have wrongly assumed . It's just that the works are so complex that they take some getting used to .
My advice is to listen to one act at atime and give yourself a breather so you don't overload your brain .
This worked for me until I got accustomed to Wagner's operas , and it shoudl work for you .
You won't regret getting to know Wagner better . If you maek the effort., you will be greatly rewarded !
It also helps to follow complete CD recordings with the libteeto and English translation next ot it .
Not all recordings feature this, particularly the live recordings on the smaller labels. But most of the Decca,EMI, Deutsche Grammophon and Philips sets do have it . Most DVDs have your choice of subtitles in English and other languages on the menu .


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## Muddy (Feb 5, 2012)

Outstanding superhorn. Thanks for the advice. I really want to appreciate Wagner. I know that there is power there. I'm a big strong guy. (In my dreams). A recording of the Liebestod left me sobbing. That climax! I love the idea of seeing the Ring complete someday. So I am ready.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

Muddy said:


> I can't embrace Wagner. Today I listened to the first hour or so of Tristan.


takes several listens until you finally get it.


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## presto (Jun 17, 2011)

Wagner is great ............... until the singing starts!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

sharik said:


> takes several listens until you finally get it.


But by then you're an old man and your hearing is shot.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

If I have children one day, i'll expose them to every piece of music i know...except Wagner. I'll show them Wagner when they're old enough. As Wagner said one time: "If my music was to be played as i meant, it would be forbidden for it would be dangerous" (something like that)

I learned about Wagner in an age which was not supposed to. Immediately i found myself locked in the wagnerian world.

However i understand when other people have trouble with Wagner. Whether is the length, the music, the singing, the librettos, the heavy chromaticism, the complexity, the giant orchestra, the heavy-weight sound, the difficulty of the german language or the need to one truely devote himself to listen to Wagner. One needs to by mentally and physically prepared for Wagner.

My advice to anyone who hasn't been exposed to Wagner is to listen to other opera composers. Don't go to Wagner yet. When you feel more comfortable with the singing, start to read Wagner. Then when you think you'd read enough and you're over 40 years old, then loose yourself into the universe of Wagner (if you dare ).


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

When I have children one day, Wagner will probably be the very first music they will ever get to hear. Who knows, maybe growing up with the works of the great masters will help them live with dignity and be the kind of children to make me and my man proud, instead of sorry.

And I agree with all who said this before me: you need to follow the libretto, at least until you know what's happening at which moment in the music. Here is a free online one: http://www.rwagner.net/e-t-opere.html . Wagner's operas are a _total artwork_, where the music serves to illustrate the action, and sometimes even reveal things that are not in the text, but are implied. The music and the text are closely intertwined, one does not exist without the other. Also, maybe try another Wagner opera for a start, and then come back to Tristan und Isolde. _Lohengrin _ is probably the most melodic one of them.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

SiegendesLicht, don't show them the_ bachanale_ in Tannhäuser as their first impact  heheheheh


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

The bacchanale is at least far more aesthetic than what they would see on MTV.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> The bacchanale is at least far more aesthetic than what they would see on MTV.


True, true...


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

presto said:


> Wagner is great ............... until the singing starts!


because they can't sing properly.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Listening to the 1st act without understanding the libretto is a waste of time, like listening to a play in a language you don't understand.

The first act is very dialogue-heavy and consists of mostly Isolde relating the back-story. You'll find the music really "starts" after Tristan & Isolde fall in love. In comparison, the 2nd act is almost Mozartean in its melody and the libretto becomes almost irrelevant as the music is elevated to heights of colossal beauty and passion to which there is no equal.

That doesn't mean the 1st act is something to "get through". Sung with conviction by a true actor-singer it is thrilling.

Buy this DVD, immediately: http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Tristan-Barenboim-Bayreuth-Festival/dp/B0012NO92O/ref=pd_cp_mov_0










_"There are few operas on DVD which are perfect. This is one of them."

"There is just no better "Tristan" on the market"

"Don't even doubt or hesitate about if you have to acquire or not this essential DVD. On the contrary, *ask yourself if you can live without having it."*_


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## Muddy (Feb 5, 2012)

I've been waiting for Couchie to respond. Somehow I knew he would.  I will check out that DVD.


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## ScipioAfricanus (Jan 7, 2010)

Muddy you jumped into the wrong Wagner Opera to start off. I would suggest you sample Tannhauser, Lohengrin and Das Rheingold first.


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## Muddy (Feb 5, 2012)

The reason I tried Tristan is because of that devastating ending. Liebestod knocks the wind out of me. Why the hell I consider that an experience to be treasured is a good question.


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## MagneticGhost (Apr 7, 2013)

I had no time for Wagner in my 20's.
It has taken a maturity and the growing patience this imparts for me to be able to penetrate the complexities of Wagner's musical dramas. 
The problem I always had was small snippets had something lacking. Now I can step back and enjoy a whole canvas I am getting so much more from his music. 
I suppose you could call me a born again Wagnerite.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

Couchie said:


>


i've got that one, the production puts me off.


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## cwarchc (Apr 28, 2012)

A bit long, I need the toilet before it's finished. (though that may be just my age "nurse nurse!! oohh too late)


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

Muddy, i've been thinking about you liking the prelude. I don't know whether you've read plenty stuff about Tristan, but it is important to understand some concepts to better understand the prelude, eventough the music is wonderfull by itself. A bit understanding about some motfis (specially the Desire, the Longing and the Potion ones) and the feeling of unfulfiled desire (a bit of Schoppenauer) will be good tips to map you through the prelude. You'll find plenty of essays about this.

Or maybe i'm so into Tristan that i cannot separate the music from its meaning.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

I think that it was Furtwängler who said that Wagner is first and foremost a poet. His music follows the logic of poetry. The music is of course genious, but always when it works (and it works always, I think), it is because of the poetic, not symphonic or musical-as-such structure.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> When I have children one day, Wagner will probably be the very first music they will ever get to hear. Who knows, maybe growing up with the works of the great masters will help them live with dignity and be the kind of children to make me and my man proud, instead of sorry.
> 
> .


Please note that some of the great masters - Wagner included - did not exactly live exemplary lives that would make their parents proud of them!


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

Since you're starting out and trying to "get into Wagner", I would consider Renting or Buying or Netflix-ing the Ring Cycle. 

I've known several people who have had a hard time getting into Wagner but did much better after "watching" the Ring Cycle.


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

Xaltotun said:


> I think that it was Furtwängler who said that Wagner is first and foremost a poet. His music follows the logic of poetry. The music is of course genious, but always when it works (and it works always, I think), it is because of the poetic, not symphonic or musical-as-such structure.


A poet, and foremost a dramatist. Everything serves the drama; I think that's Wagner's own understanding.

While googling for something else, I came across this article on young Bass-Baritone Ryan McKinny premiering (today?) as Kurwenal in Houston (with Ben Heppner and Nina Stemme). The article quotes him



> "McKinny says never mind that the plot is convoluted and dense filled with potions and metaphors. It's the incredible music, the layered emotions that have made Richard Wagner's Tristan and Isolde such a great enduring work."


Not. It's the unique intensity of music _and_ words, more than the sum of each, in the service of the drama, that has made this piece last. The emotion of the piece is intense, but it's not wishy-washy. The emotion is the result of very concrete goings-on. A, B, C. Things happen, they have a reason, people have a history. And if you think that's "convoluted", you might want to try just a little harder understanding them.

Provided he really said that, I wonder how they can choose that man for the role. "Oh never mind, Ibsen's kinda weird and convoluted, but I'll still play Hedda Gabler." Hello?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

realdealblues said:


> Since you're starting out and trying to "get into Wagner", I would consider Renting or Buying or Netflix-ing the Ring Cycle.
> 
> I've known several people who have had a hard time getting into Wagner but did much better after "watching" the Ring Cycle.


I would personally advise anyone to do the opposite - get to know the music first and use your imagination. The sight of overweight Valkyries on pretend horses does tend to make the drama look humorous rather than magical.


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## Muddy (Feb 5, 2012)

dionisio said:


> Muddy, i've been thinking about you liking the prelude. I don't know whether you've read plenty stuff about Tristan, but it is important to understand some concepts to better understand the prelude, eventough the music is wonderfull by itself. A bit understanding about some motfis (specially the Desire, the Longing and the Potion ones) and the feeling of unfulfiled desire (a bit of Schoppenauer) will be good tips to map you through the prelude. You'll find plenty of essays about this.
> 
> Or maybe i'm so into Tristan that i cannot separate the music from its meaning.


dionisio, all that I really know about Tristan is the prelude, the Liebestod and that it is a highly regarded opera by Wagner. I ordered the DVD recommended by Couchie. I will do some additional reading as well. Thanks for the advice.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The problem with watching Wagner is the sheer length of time it takes. I mean, while listening to the Ring you could be servicing the car, decorating the dining room, digging the garden and having a bath afterwards.


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

DavidA said:


> I would personally advise anyone to do the opposite - get to know the music first and use your imagination. The sight of overweight Valkyries on pretend horses does tend to make the drama look humorous rather than magical.


I lend friends my Pierre Boulez Ring Cycle on DVD. Some other versions may do that but I enjoyed it just as much as Peter Jackson's Lord Of The Rings movies. I see the magic, the power, the humor and the fantasy in that production without any negative effects. I frequently take an entire Sunday and sit and watch all 4 operas in one sitting only breaking for the bathroom and lunch.


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

Muddy said:


> dionisio, all that I really know about Tristan is the prelude, the Liebestod and that it is a highly regarded opera by Wagner. I ordered the DVD recommended by Couchie. I will do some additional reading as well. Thanks for the advice.


I think you will do just fine. You've already felt the Wagner "thing", which is very promising (I think I've known the Liebestod _long_ before I really got into Wagner, and it hadn't meant much to me). Invest as much as you possibly feel like investing at this time; you'll soon experience the reward. But there's no problem in giving/taking only so much at a time, process it, and come back later. I've been in the "Wagner process" for years; I am slow but nothing keeps me on my toes as much.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

DavidA said:


> Please note that some of the great masters - Wagner included - did not exactly live exemplary lives that would make their parents proud of them!


Well, if my kids would be born into the same nation, I would like them to be as proud of it as Wagner was. But generally it is not so much about the masters' lives being an example, as about developing a love for the beautiful, the noble, the earnest, for the things that require thinking and concentration, for the things that live through the ages, rather than come and go with the latest pop fad.


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## poconoron (Oct 26, 2011)

hreichgott said:


> I also love Mozart opera, and feel neutral about most other opera.
> Maybe you were just exposed to the best too early?


What he said...............


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Well, if my kids would be born into the same nation, I would like them to be as proud of it as Wagner was. But generally it is not so much about the masters' lives being an example, as about developing a love for the beautiful, the noble, the earnest, for the things that require thinking and concentration, for the things that live through the ages, rather than come and go with the latest pop fad.


You will find that kids today have very much their own minds as to what tastes they follow - including musical ones. I love the classics but my kids have very different tastes which I respect. They are fine musicians but play a different sort of music to what I generally enjoy - except when it's my kids that are playing it, that is! When I see what my son plays it sure requires what you call 'thinking and concentration' in spades Not just the keys but synchronising it with computer, etc.. It is a very different art but an equally skilled one which I respect. My father was a brilliant musician (he too earned a living at it) but my tastes differed from his. These days I appreciate lots of different musical styles - classical, pop, jazz, etc.. There are tremendous musicians in all fields. So if your kids go for something else other than the classics, then let them go for it. Just rejoice they are making music!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

realdealblues said:


> I lend friends my Pierre Boulez Ring Cycle on DVD. Some other versions may do that but I enjoyed it just as much as Peter Jackson's Lord Of The Rings movies. I see the magic, the power, the humor and the fantasy in that production without any negative effects. I frequently take an entire Sunday and sit and watch all 4 operas in one sitting only breaking for the bathroom and lunch.


I would have thought that you would be severely famished by the end if you only had lunch. I think I would have afternoon tea and evening dinner also!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Xaltotun said:


> I think that it was Furtwängler who said that Wagner is first and foremost a poet. His music follows the logic of poetry. The music is of course genious, but always when it works (and it works always, I think), it is because of the poetic, not symphonic or musical-as-such structure.


"it does seem to me that nothing can make a Wagner opera absolutely perfect and satisfactory to the untutored but to leave out the vocal parts." (Mark Twain)


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

realdealblues said:


> I frequently take an entire Sunday and sit and watch all 4 operas in one sitting


oh that's tough... even for me it takes four evenings to go it through.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Muddy said:


> I ordered the DVD recommended by Couchie.


Well done, I hope you enjoy your out-of-body experience in the second act.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

sharik said:


> i've got that one, the production puts me off.


Hmmmm, why? I have seen many (all?) of the Tristans on DVD and this is not only the best production, but perhaps the best production of anything, ever.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

'I know of some, and have heard of many, who could not sleep after it, but cried the night away. I feel strongly out of place here," Mark Twain wrote, having just sat through Wagner's Tristan und Isolde. "Sometimes," he added, "I feel like the one sane person in the community of the mad."


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## MagneticGhost (Apr 7, 2013)

Slightly off topic but for those who don't go to the concert thread.
At the BBC Proms this year. They are showing 7 Wagner Operas.
The Ring Cycle - Daniel Barenboim conducting
But also complete performances of Tristan, Tannhauser and Parsifal.
£5 for standing tickets if you're feeling full of stamina.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

DavidA said:


> 'I know of some, and have heard of many, who could not sleep after it, but cried the night away. I feel strongly out of place here," Mark Twain wrote, having just sat through Wagner's Tristan und Isolde. "Sometimes," he added, "I feel like the one sane person in the community of the mad..."


The rest of the quote: "...sometimes I feel like the one blind man where all others see; the one groping savage in the college of the learned, and always, during service, I feel like a heretic in heaven."


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

Couchie said:


> I have seen many (all?) of the Tristans on DVD and this is not only the best production, but perhaps the best production of anything, ever.


here's the best T&I production to date -


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

sharik said:


> here's the best T&I production to date -


It's a good production but I couldn't shake the feeling I was watching a stern schoolteacher falling in love with a gorilla, so I found it pretty unaffecting. And you lose Barenboim, Bayreuth, and W. Meier...


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> The rest of the quote: "...sometimes I feel like the one blind man where all others see; the one groping savage in the college of the learned, and always, during service, I feel like a heretic in heaven."


Yes. He was saying it ironically, of course. He was the 'unbeliever' amid the 'worshippers'. Typical Twain.


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## GiulioCesare (Apr 9, 2013)

Same here...


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

Couchie said:


> I couldn't shake the feeling I was watching a stern schoolteacher falling in love with a gorilla


???



Couchie said:


> you lose Barenboim, Bayreuth, and W. Meier...


i for one don't miss neither of them.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

sharik said:


> i for one don't miss neither of them.


_Scorn not the Masters, I bid you,
and honour their art!
What speaks high in their praise
fell richly in your favour.
Not to your ancestors, however worthy,
not to your coat-of-arms, spear, or sword,
but to the fact that you are a poet,
that a Master has admitted you -
to that you owe today your highest happiness.
So, think back to this with gratitude:
how can the art be unworthy
which embraces such prizes?
That our Masters have cared for it
rightly in their own way,
cherished it truly as they thought best,
that has kept it genuine:
if it did not remain aristocratic as of old,
when courts and princes blessed it,
in the stress of evil years
it remained German and true;
and if it flourished nowhere
but where all is stress and strain,
you see how high it remained in honour -
what more would you ask of the Masters?
Beware! Evil tricks threaten us:
if the German people and kingdom should one day decay,
under a false, foreign rule
soon no prince would understand his people;
and foreign mists with foreign vanities
they would plant in our German land;
what is German and true none would know,
if it did not live in the honour of German Masters.
Therefore I say to you:
honour your German Masters,
then you will conjure up good spirits!
And if you favour their endeavours,
even if the Holy Roman Empire
should dissolve in mist,
for us there would yet remain
holy German Art!_


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

Couchie said:


> Scorn not the Masters


well the Meistersingers only show there's no irreplaceble artists or 'masters' or 'stars' like Barenboim


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

sharik said:


> well the Meistersingers only show there's no irreplaceble artists or 'masters' or 'stars' like Barenboim


But the Master who wrote the Meistersingers is irreplaceble heheheheheh:devil:


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

dionisio said:


> But the Master who wrote the Meistersingers is irreplaceble heheheheheh:devil:


agreed....


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## Muddy (Feb 5, 2012)

This is the Wagner set that I own:

http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Great-...560208&sr=1-5&keywords=wagner+complete+operas

I'm not that computer savvy, so not sure how that will appear in this post. It seemed like a great deal to introduce myself to Wagner.

Couchie, I have begun watching the DVD you recommended. Wagner is intense. I do believe that I am coming around.


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## Muddy (Feb 5, 2012)

The long, ecstatic duet in the second act is really something. That ecstatic buildup that mirrors the Liebestod almost gets there, almost almost...then climax denied!! In the Liebestod, it is that note, that climax achieved, that gives me a seizure!


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

Muddy said:


> The long, ecstatic duet in the second act is really something. That ecstatic buildup that mirrors the Liebestod almost gets there, almost almost...then climax denied!! In the Liebestod, it is that note, that climax achieved, that gives me a seizure!


In the second act, we don't really know yet where Tristan's really coming from and where he's going to lead Isolde, so we need that third act where he gets a chance to tell us. Also in the second act, Isolde has let go of all her sense of duty, honor, revenge, justice, ... she seems like this girl (that she'd possibly never had a chance of being before): careless, irresponsible -- in love, but not in a place to make a really mature decision to follow Tristan. She as well needs the transition to the third act.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Muddy said:


> The long, ecstatic duet in the second act is really something. That ecstatic buildup that mirrors the Liebestod almost gets there, almost almost...then climax denied!! In the Liebestod, it is that note, that climax achieved, that gives me a seizure!


The love duet is music's longest coitus interruptus.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Ebab said:


> In the second act, we don't really know yet where Tristan's really coming from and where he's going to lead Isolde...


Why do you think so? In the last scene of the second act he is talking quite plainly, although metaphorically, about death, the state before and after life, since he also speaks of it as that "land" where he had been before his birth. After he and Isolde are found out, he is certain they will now be killed for their treason to King Marke, and he asks Isolde if she is ready to follow her into the realm of death.



> Also in the second act, Isolde has let go of all her sense of duty, honor, revenge, justice, ... she seems like this girl (that she'd possibly never had a chance of being before): careless, irresponsible -- in love, but not in a place to make a really mature decision to follow Tristan.


You know, that whole story is one of the very few difficulties I sometimes have with accepting Wagner's operatic ideas. I mean, Tristan had killed her lover! And sent her his severed head! And she falls in love with him, for goodness' sake! That is so illogical that it takes a magic potion to make that happen. But that is, I think, what the role of the potion is - to awaken passion in the two people least expected to feel it for one another.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

SiegendesLicht said:


> that whole story is one of the very few difficulties I sometimes have with accepting Wagner's operatic ideas. I mean, Tristan had killed her lover! And sent her his severed head! And she falls in love with him, for goodness' sake! That is so illogical


she did not love Morold, and she was a *woman*, by the way.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

sharik said:


> she did not love Morold


Why then would she want to avenge his death?



> and she was a *woman*, by the way


You seem to imply women are incapable of faithfulness. That ain't a very Wagnerian idea.


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Why do you think so? In the last scene of the second act he is talking quite plainly, although metaphorically, about death, the state before and after life, since he also speaks of it as that "land" where he had been before his birth. After he and Isolde are found out, he is certain they will now be killed for their treason to King Marke, and he asks Isolde if she is ready to follow her into the realm of death.


We absolutely know that Tristan's talking about death, no doubt about that. But what we don't know in depth yet is how personal and intimate Tristan's relation with death is. Death seems like his realm from childhood on. His heroics at war might rather have been wild attempts at dissolving himself into the state that he seemed to remember from before he was born.

And Isolde: She knows war and duty, and how easily either can lead to death; she doesn't _fear_ death but, what seems only natural (and is the initial position of the audience), she has tried to avoid it. In the first act, her position is so doomed that she wants to end it. And it's not mainly her being married to a king whom she doesn't either know or love (which, in her day, is only her duty) but to meet the man whom she really loves presumably daily at the court.

In the second act, she has let go of all of that; she's irresponsible, incautious, giddy, in love. After their night together, when they have been exposed, and Tristan is once again ready to be killed: she is ready to follow him no doubt. She is not in a state of mind though where I would say she's making a conscious choice, and that's one of the reasons I'm happy there is a third act.



> You know, that whole story is one of the very few difficulties I sometimes have with accepting Wagner's operatic ideas. I mean, Tristan had killed her lover! And sent her his severed head! And she falls in love with him, for goodness' sake! That is so illogical that it takes a magic potion to make that happen. But that is, I think, what the role of the potion is - to awaken passion in the two people least expected to feel it for one another.


Maybe you've read my personal (entirely debatable) take on the role of the love potion; I think in Wagner's version, it's merely a dramatic device that speeds up a development that would have taken place regardless, had Isolde and Tristan seen each other almost daily at Marke's court. They are in love (and this is a thing that I have very little doubt about) when the curtain rises.

But precisely, what Wagner is telling us here: Love will make you forget values of honor, justice, dignity, duty, loyalty, the socially acceptable, whatever you've believed in; it will make you _suffer_, and there's no way for you to escape. It's not a mythical love potion, it's _love_ that does it. And, regarding Wagner's personal history, I think it makes sense to assume he had a desire to express that emotion; it has happened to him.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Let's face it, the story of Tristan defies logic. It is ridiculous. But it is just the vehicle for Wagner to hang his music on. It's opera, in a word!


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

> But precisely, what Wagner is telling us here: Love will make you forget values of honor, justice, dignity, duty, loyalty, the socially acceptable; it will make you suffer, and there's no way for you to escape. It's not a mythical love potion, it's love that does it. And, regarding Wagner's personal history, I think it makes sense to assume he had a desire to express that emotion; it has happened to him.


Well, maybe you are right and I should simply take the opera at face value and stop trying to relate it to my own view on things, because in that view there certainly is no place for love for a murderer of one's beloved and betrothed (and I seriously doubt Wagner would fall in love with a hypothetical murderess of Cosima, however pretty she might be. I think he'd rather do everything to make sure she would get the harshest punishment available). And Isolde shows a great deal of hatred for Tristan in the first act. That's why I was thinking the potion is actually a metaphor for love itself, the sort of irresistible passion that throws even the most unlikely people into each other's arms. Wagner's own love made him defy convention, but he wanted to tell of an ultimate love that would defy _everything _: logic, memory for the murdered Morold and desire to avenge him, and even fear of death. That's why he invented the potion.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

DavidA said:


> Let's face it, the story of Tristan defies logic. It is ridiculous. But it is just the vehicle for Wagner to hang his music on. It's opera, in a word!


Love defies logic. Furthermore, they were both on drugs. The idea that either Tristan or Isolde should behave logically is completely illogical.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

DavidA said:


> the story of Tristan defies logic


no, it excels logic and everything else in this world.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

The plot of Tristan is no more ridiculoius than what happens in real life . Probably even less so !


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## Muddy (Feb 5, 2012)

Clearly they were both drugged! Any complaints about the plot without including this are irrelevant. Isolde wanted to poison Tristan. This is what makes the story so tragic. And interesting.


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## Muddy (Feb 5, 2012)

Ok, I have now read the libretto and watched the DVD with the libretto thru the first act. I have also listened to extensive portions of the second act. And of course, the Liebestod. My thoughts:

1) Couchie is obviously correct that without the libretto, forget it. In the first act, it is pretty much all you have. When I first listened to it while at work with no libretto, good lord I wanted it to end. I was wincing. And I live for classical music. It consumes me all day long. With the libretto, the first act becomes much more interesting. The story is critical. The experience is fascinating and powerful, but a world apart from the opera that I am used to. 

2) Wagner is intense. If you need drama, look no further. Clearly a huge intellect (and ego) is in play here. 

3) This is more difficult. With Mozart, if I have The Magic Flute playing in my car, I can be richly rewarded on my 15 minutes to work. There are recitatives followed by arias or duets or choruses, etc. All perfect, varied, delightful and powerful. Something will delight me within the 15 minutes to work. With Wagner and Tristan, not so much. It is like Wagner eliminated recitatives, but included them in the music, but that tends to eliminate anything you can hum or tap your feet to for huge sections of music. What I hear is endless dramatic dialogue. The libretto helps, of course, but there doesn't seem to be any stand alone sections that you can look forward to. The climaxes are HUGE, but the wait is long. 

4) When it comes to Wagner, I'm a Noob, but I'm a stubborn Noob. I once didn't hear the genius in Bach. For years, I put him on a back burner. Now, he is my musical God. Wagner is huge. His music is powerful. I look forward to my journey.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Couchie said:


> Love defies logic. Furthermore, they were both on drugs. The idea that either Tristan or Isolde should behave logically is completely illogical.


What we are talking about is sexual lust not true love.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

superhorn said:


> The plot of Tristan is no more ridiculoius than what happens in real life . Probably even less so !


And if it read of it happening we would all say 'ridiculous'


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

sharik said:


> no, it excels logic and everything else in this world.


It is FICTION


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Well, maybe you are right and I should simply take the opera at face value and stop trying to relate it to my own view on things, [...]


Please don't; the last thing I would want you to do is to stop relating your own views to the opera. Everybody can give the love potion the amount of power that they believe is necessary for the story to work. I believe it's less, you believe it's more - the opera leaves that ultimately open to the viewer.

Like I've written in that other posting, I also believe that drinking a potion that they both believe will bring them death, and _surviving _ that existential experience, may be as life-changing as any love potion can be.



> [...] because in that view there certainly is no place for love for a murderer of one's beloved and betrothed (and I seriously doubt Wagner would fall in love with a hypothetical murderess of Cosima, however pretty she might be. I think he'd rather do everything to make sure she would get the harshest punishment available).


I'm rather thinking of Wagner's - probably platonic but intense - relationship with Mathilde Wesendonck, the wife of his most important supporter at the time. It was their relationship and its aftermath that was the strongest impulse for Wagner to put the _Ring_ aside, and begin with _Tristan_ instead.

Otto Wesendonck had admired and supported Wagner in his Swiss exile in every which way imaginable. The Wagners lived in a house that Wesendonck had prepared for them on his own grounds, in close proximity to his own house. Wagner betrayed the man who had proven his adoration and friendship. He also betrayed his own wife Minna, who ultimately found an incriminating letter that Wagner had written to Mathilde. She made a dramatic scandal that threatened to make both couples impossible in society (there had been rumors enough before). Wagner had to part from his cherished muse Mathilde (whose life was of course in turmoil as well), left Zurich, and fled (there was still a warrant on his head) to Venice, alone. Of course, also his professional standing was once again shattered. Typical Wagner, always 150 percent damage. It's not quite as bad as sending back a severed head, but in terms of real life, not too far away from that.



> And Isolde shows a great deal of hatred for Tristan in the first act.


She does. But after Brangäne has opened the curtains to the ship deck, Isolde's eyes immediately fall on Tristan. With her eyes fixed on Tristan, Isolde speaks to herself, in a hollow tone:

_Mir erkoren,
Mir verloren _​
Chosen for me,
lost to me​
Not in-the-face, but there for those who listen.



> That's why I was thinking the potion is actually a metaphor for love itself, the sort of irresistible passion that throws even the most unlikely people into each other's arms. Wagner's own love made him defy convention, but he wanted to tell of an ultimate love that would defy _everything _: logic, memory for the murdered Morold and desire to avenge him, and even fear of death. That's why he invented the potion.


I think that Wagner's own love pretty much made him defy "everything": convention, but also career, security, justice, marriage, loyalty, friendship. He didn't need a potion. But it may have been wise of him to keep the potion in the story, precisely for an audience that may not be able to relate to that emotion as well. In short: He leaves it to us to give power to the potion.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Wagner liked Platonic love because it is both play and a tonic .


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Ebab said:


> I think that Wagner's own love pretty much made him defy "everything": convention, but also career, security, justice, marriage, loyalty, friendship. He didn't need a potion. But it may have been wise of him to keep the potion in the story, precisely for an audience that may not be able to relate to that emotion as well. In short: He leaves it to us to give power to the potion.


The 'love' Wagner had was for himself and his own self-agrandisement. In Cosima he found a woman who shared his own self-infatuation and self-adoration. Let's face it, the guy was a tremendous musician and composer, but he was a monster!


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

The discussion of _Tristan_ made me remember one of my favorite all-time posts (thanks to Couchie). The plot is more than a bit silly/unreal/ridiculous, but the music is sublime. I don't worry about the plot. At least any more than the plot of most sci-fi movies.


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## Rapide (Oct 11, 2011)

There is no trouble with Wagner's music. It is sublime. That's all we need to say.


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

I couldn't possibly stand all that drama, if it wasn't _good_ drama.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Ebab said:


> Please don't; the last thing I would want you to do is to stop relating your own views to the opera.


It's just that personally I have a very sceptical, even cynical view of such love affairs that people plunge headlong into, forgetting everything else in the world. In real life they usually don't come to anything good, especially for the female part. But this is an opera, not real life, and it is far better to learn to penetrate into the Master's intention, to think his thoughts, as they are reflected in the opera, rather than bring the "baggage" of one's own jaded intellect into the matter. In plain words, I want to be able to approach _Tristan und Isolde _with the same attitude I have for all other Wagner's operas: "Master, I hear you, I know what you are saying to me, and I agree with you wholeheartedly!" _Tristan und Isolde_ is the only one of Wagner's works where I have ever had any difficulty with that wholehearted affirmation. That's why it is very important for me to get it all worked out in some way, to come to the point where I can embrace it without reservations.



> I think that Wagner's own love pretty much made him defy "everything": convention, but also career, security, justice, marriage, loyalty, friendship. He didn't need a potion.


I think the potion is there, because it is a metaphor for precisely that kind of love: one that you cannot resist or avoid, that brings as much suffering as joy and that works almost as some natural force, separate from the lovers themselves (do you remember Isolde talking about "Frau Minne", which is personified love, at the beginning of Act II?), love that is like fate, like doom and death itself. You can possibly resist a love that comes from your own heart, but it's pretty hard to struggle against the effects of some drug. And, I think, while in the plot this irresistible passion is induced by the potion, what the potion really stands for is passion itself. And sorry if my meaning is not very clear.



> Like I've written in that other posting, I also believe that drinking a potion that they both believe will bring them death, and surviving that existential experience, may be as life-changing as any love potion can be.


That passage gave me another idea: what if living through that moment of expecting to die made both Tristan and Isolde set their priorities straight and go for what was most important for them in life - their love? Maybe it's exactly because they had both faced death, that everything else: Tristan's loyalty, Isolde's hatred etc, suddenly became unimportant. In the second act they talk about all those things as associated with "Day", while "Night" stands for the one really important thing - love.



> Mir erkoren,
> Mir verloren
> 
> Chosen for me,
> ...


I am convinced Wagner put those lines into his libretto with the express purpose of making his admirers 1.5 centuries later rack their brains over them  Just joking.


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

SiegendesLicht said:


> It's just that personally I have a very sceptical, even cynical view of such love affairs that people plunge headlong into, forgetting everything else in the world. In real life they usually don't come to anything good, especially for the female part. But this is an opera, not real life, and it is far better to learn to penetrate into the Master's intention, to think his thoughts, as they are reflected in the opera, rather than bring the "baggage" of one's own jaded intellect into the matter. In plain words, I want to be able to approach _Tristan und Isolde _with the same attitude I have for all other Wagner's operas: "Master, I hear you, I know what you are saying to me, and I agree with you wholeheartedly!" _Tristan und Isolde_ is the only one of Wagner's works where I have ever had any difficulty with that wholehearted affirmation. That's why it is very important for me to get it all worked out in some way, to come to the point where I can embrace it without reservations.


The nice thing about an opera is: We can leave our "baggage" at the cloakroom. For a couple of hours, we can enjoy a ride of "what if". Like you, I very much enjoy seeing relevant parts of my _own_ life, _today_, being reflected in Wagner's operas. But that doesn't necessarily mean I would embrace all these ideas into my own life. Wagner himself wouldn't! "Tristan" is an expression of Wagner's Wesendonck experience, an _amour fou_ (impossible/crazy love) which was both exhilarating and a big failure on multiple levels, and it took him to a rather dark place. Tristan is that person who is dark, truly loving, a failure, and still gets the girl, if only in death. Opera written, case solved, back to life!

And this is more or less how I experience the opera too. I can sense the attraction of Tristan's realm but in my real life, I wouldn't want to go there. _Amours fous_ definitely happen in real life but I'm not keen on having one.



> I think the potion is there, because it is a metaphor for precisely that kind of love: one that you cannot resist or avoid, that brings as much suffering as joy and that works almost as some natural force, separate from the lovers themselves (do you remember Isolde talking about "Frau Minne", which is personified love, at the beginning of Act II?), love that is like fate, like doom and death itself. You can possibly resist a love that comes from your own heart, but it's pretty hard to struggle against the effects of some drug. And, I think, while in the plot this irresistible passion is induced by the potion, what the potion really stands for is passion itself. And sorry if my meaning is not very clear.


I think both of our understandings are pretty much close in this regard. Tristan and Isolde have a crazy love, one that doesn't make any sense but is very real. Whether this love comes from the potion, whether the potion only makes them lose their inhibitions, or whether the love potion is less important than their common near-death experience ‒ ultimately it doesn't make that much of a difference; we end up in the same place.

But the love potion as a _metaphor_ for the unreasonable, unavoidable, "crazy" love that brings suffering ‒ that's a thought that I like.



> That passage gave me another idea: what if living through that moment of expecting to die made both Tristan and Isolde set their priorities straight and go for what was most important for them in life - their love? Maybe it's exactly because they had both faced death, that everything else: Tristan's loyalty, Isolde's hatred etc, suddenly became unimportant. In the second act they talk about all those things as associated with "Day", while "Night" stands for the one really important thing - love.


This is _precisely_ what I'd been meaning to say, in this and that other thread! And specifically, "Night" is _Tristan's_ realm, _his_ vision of love, and it does intrigue Isolde.

Ah, this is truly great; I'm happy that I'm no longer the sole weirdo here. 



> > Mir erkoren,
> > mir verloren
> 
> 
> I am convinced Wagner put those lines into his libretto with the express purpose of making his admirers 1.5 centuries later rack their brains over them  Just joking.


A thing that I just _love_ to do, and I'm _not_ joking.  I genuinely _enjoy_ the whole Wagner Gesamtkunstwerk package with all my heart, I _love_ thinking about it, and I'm *frustrated* when the people here just write "music sublime, plot sucks". Wagner had regarded this as a big failure.

I wished it was me, but the significance of this verse has been recognized by the public in Wagner's own time. I just looked up in some of my own ‒ if you happen to have a (Wagner-specific or general) opera guide, chances are that it will make a point of these very lines. My husband once gave me a (really nice) Wagner introductory book from 1908, and it calls these lines "famous". The understanding that Tristan and Isolde are in love before the curtain rises seems pretty much consensus among the exegetes, and in Wagner's time already.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

M


SiegendesLicht said:


> It's just that personally I have a very sceptical, even cynical view of such love affairs that people plunge headlong into, forgetting everything else in the world. In real life they usually don't come to anything good, especially for the female part. But this is an opera, not real life, and it is far better to learn to penetrate into the Master's intention, to think his thoughts, as they are reflected in the opera, rather than bring the "baggage" of one's own jaded intellect into the matter. In plain words, I want to be able to approach _Tristan und Isolde _with the same attitude I have for all other Wagner's operas: "Master, I hear you, I know what you are saying to me, and I agree with you wholeheartedly!" _Tristanl und Isolde_ is the only one of Wagner's works where I have ever had any difficulty with that wholehearted affirmation. That's why it is very important for me to get it all worked out in some way, to come to the point where I can embrace it without reservations.
> 
> .


If I were you I'd just look upon Wagner's operas as entertainment not as if he was trying to say something wonderful. In real life he was a notorious womaniser who survived only through the patience and good will of others. He obviously did not believe his own philosophy that is built into Tristan. I have been married now for 42 years and I can assure you that real love (love that lasts) is not like that.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

DavidA said:


> M
> 
> If I were you I'd just look upon Wagner's operas as entertainment not as if he was trying to say something wonderful. In real life he was a notorious womaniser who survived only through the patience and good will of others. He obviously did not believe his own philosophy that is built into Tristan. I have been married now for 42 years and I can assure you that real love (love that lasts) is not like that.


Wagner was a womanizer? Thank you for bringing this to our attention, at last. Cancel all the 2013 Ring Cycles!!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Couchie said:


> Wagner was a womanizer? Thank you for bringing this to our attention, at last. Cancel all the 2013 Ring Cycles!!


The Ring is entertainment. No more no less. It should not be viewed in any other light.

It's composer was a great musician who lived a pretty rotten life and who believed his genius excused everything.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

DavidA said:


> If I were you I'd just look upon Wagner's operas as entertainment not as if he was trying to say something wonderful. In real life he was a notorious womaniser who survived only through the patience and good will of others. He obviously did not believe his own philosophy that is built into Tristan. I have been married now for 42 years and I can assure you that real love (love that lasts) is not like that.


But I do believe he was trying to say something wonderful! In fact, the story of each one of Wagner's (major) operas is wondeful to me, be it the epic struggle for power in the Ring, or the conflict of good and evil in Parsifal, or the love of art in Die Meistersinger or the all-overcoming passion in Tristan und Isolde. They are certainly good entertainment, but they seem to be just about the _only_ operas that contain much more than entertainment.

Last time I heard, being a womanizer was not a crime. And besides, there must have been something about that little rugged-faced Saxon that made him so popular with the ladies.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> But I do believe he was trying to say something wonderful! In fact, the story of each one of Wagner's (major) operas is wondeful to me, be it the epic struggle for power in the Ring, or the conflict of good and evil in Parsifal, or the love of art in Die Meistersinger or the all-overcoming passion in Tristan und Isolde. They are certainly good entertainment, but they seem to be just about the _only_ operas that contain much more than entertainment.
> 
> Last time I heard, being a womanizer was not a crime. And besides, there must have been something about that little rugged-faced Saxon that made him so popular with the ladies.


Wagner said no more and no less than other opera composers. I know he fancied himself as a philosopher but he wasn't any good at it. There is nothing philosophically profound in his operas, much though people make of them.

I know being a womaniser is not a crime. It's just that I consider that cheating on your wife is a despicable thing to do. And as for a serial cheat, we'll, he is serially despicable!


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Wagner said no more and no less than other opera composers. I know he fancied himself as a philosopher but he wasn't any good at it. There is nothing philosophically profound in his operas, much though people make of them.


No, Wagner did not consider himself a philosopher. Yes, there is philosophical content woven into "Tristan", inspired in particular by philosopher Schopenhauer. No, that's no reason to stand in awe.

"Tristan" encompasses mythology, modern drama, philosophy, but most importantly, it is a solid good play. It _works_.

And oh yes, the idea of that particular nightly, all-encompassing, the-self-dissolving "world-breath" of Tristan's realm has inspired generations, and will continue to do so when you and me are long forgotten.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Ebab said:


> A thing that I just _love_ to do, and I'm _not_ joking.  I genuinely _enjoy_ the whole Wagner Gesamtkunstwerk package with all my heart, I _love_ thinking about it, and I'm *frustrated* when the people here just write "music sublime, plot sucks". Wagner had regarded this as a big failure.


I feel exactly the same way! I get frustrated as well when people tend to treat Wagner's music and Wagner's plots separately, and even more frustrated when people try to read things into these operas that plainly are not there (think an antisemitic stereotype behind every bush).



> The understanding that Tristan and Isolde are in love before the curtain rises seems pretty much consensus among the exegetes, and in Wagner's time already


I wonder if Wagner himself has ever given any commentary on those lines.



> Ah, this is truly great; I'm happy that I'm no longer the sole weirdo here.


Definitely not. Now, will I come across as too weird if I say that a certain part of my Wagner enjoyment comes not only from the _meaning_ of the libretto, but from the very _sound _ of German-language singing? I would probably care for Wagner somewhat less if he had written his texts in French or Italian, but the sound of the German language (which I have always, since ever first hearing it apart from WWII movies, considered to be beautiful and melodious) superimposed over the glorious music, creates that perfect blend which feels and sounds... just right.

Now, I know that most native speakers of a certain language do not perceive it as beautiful or ugly (I wonder if Wagner did, since he had an ear for both music and poetry ), for them it is just "the language". That is why I am wondering, just how weird this seems to you


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

SiegendesLicht said:


> I wonder if Wagner himself has ever given any commentary on those lines.


I'm not aware that he had (but usually he was rather vocal when he felt himself misunderstood).

I know a note from Wagner on Tristan's love. In a short synopsis, he speaks of Tristan leading the bride to his king, "not admitting to himself his own love for her" _("diejenige [...], die selbst zu lieben er sich nicht gestehen wollte")_. That passage doesn't say anything about Isolde's feelings though.

I have little doubt, particularly in combination with that other verse ("Ungeminnt/den hehrsten Mann/stets mir nah zu sehen/wie könnt ich die Qual bestehen?"), but ultimately the meaning remains dark, and probably on purpose.



> Definitely not. Now, will I come across as too weird if I say that a certain part of my Wagner enjoyment comes not only from the _meaning_ of the libretto, but from the very _sound _ of German-language singing? I would probably care for Wagner somewhat less if he had written his texts in French or Italian, but the sound of the German language (which I have always, since ever first hearing it apart from WWII movies, considered to be beautiful and melodious) superimposed over the glorious music, creates that perfect blend which feels and sounds... just right.
> 
> Now, I know that most native speakers of a certain language do not perceive it as beautiful or ugly (I wonder if Wagner did, since he had an ear for both music and poetry ), for them it is just "the language". That is why I am wondering, just how weird this seems to you


_W-e-i-r-d!_ German sounds ugly, everybody knows that. 

No, like you say, I don't have strong feelings on the sound of German either way. Usually I don't really _hear_ the sound of it, only the meaning and the effect. But when I pay attention to it, like in poetry, I do feel the tonal expressiveness of my language; it can be harsh, it can be pallid, and it can be full and beautiful.

(I feel a Hitler reference coming up in three, two, one, ...)


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

A reminder: There's a famous essay that tries to put Wagner into perspective.

https://sites.google.com/site/kenocstuff/the-monster


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

KenOC said:


> A reminder: There's a famous essay that tries to put Wagner into perspective.
> 
> https://sites.google.com/site/kenocstuff/the-monster


I think most of this is right apart from: 'he was a great thinker'. He wasn't.

It's also very easy for us to deal in the abstract many years after the event about his infidelities and his practically stealing other people's money. When you have to deal with people whose lives have been wrecked by infidelities then nothing can compensate for it. Not even a Ring cycle. People matter more than art. The last part of this article is therefore trite and thoughtless. Rather like saying it doesn't matter how many in the third world suffer as long as we have a good standard of living.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Just a random thought: one of my favorite moments in _Tristan und Isolde_ is the end of the first act. They have just drunk the potion and expect to drop dead, but instead they fall into each other's arms. And at that moment the ship reaches its port, and the crowd of people on the shore sings: "Hail, king Marke, hail!" and our lovers don't care one little bit. And then comes the best part:

KURWENAL:
Hail Tristan,
happy hero!
With a splendid retinue
there, on the boat,
King Marke is approaching.
Ah, how the journey delights him,
winning a bride.

TRISTAN:
(bewildered, looking up)

Who is approaching?

KURWENAL:
The King!

TRISTAN:
What... king?..

Wow! Just wow! And the tune is quite hummable, by the way.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

For the record, I consider Wagner a great thinker, as good as the best in the Western literary canon. I think all his mature works, not just _Tristan_, abound with most profound themes and ideas. But instead of founding an outpost of Wagner apologetics in this thread, I will simply advise naysayers to delve deeper into his writings and modern Wagner studies.

Also, I find the German language really beautiful - not just the sound but especially the structure.


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## Muddy (Feb 5, 2012)

My exploration into the world of Wagner continues with fits and starts and some frustration. Just when I am ready to pack it up and say "Screw Wagner," I hear some music that destroys me. I mean, Siegfried's Funeral music is overwhelming. I think that I have to stop comparing Wagner to Mozart. Wagner can be absolutely staggering, so I keep listening. Can anyone tell me the best Ring cycle dvd set to buy?


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Muddy said:


> Can anyone tell me the best Ring cycle dvd set to buy?


Well tastes vary, but you might want to look at this thread (The Talk Classical Most Recommended Opera DVD's).


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Xaltotun said:


> For the record, I consider Wagner a great thinker, as good as the best in the Western literary canon. I think all his mature works, not just _Tristan_, abound with most profound themes and ideas. But instead of founding an outpost of Wagner apologetics in this thread, I will simply advise naysayers to delve deeper into his writings and modern Wagner studies.
> 
> Also, I find the German language really beautiful - not just the sound but especially the structure.


So tell me. What great thoughts did Wagner have?


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## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

DavidA said:


> So tell me. What great thoughts did Wagner have?


Curiously enough, just to contribute to the conversation with a little fact, Harold Bloom listed _Der Ring des Nibelungen_ in his list of essentials of the Western Literary Canon at the end of his book '_The Western Canon_'. Now, I have no experience with Harold Bloom, and have not read the book, but it seemed to me very interesting for a literary critic to put an opera cycle there - the only one too, as far as my quick reading informed me. (I have heard that Harold Bloom later disavowed the list, or at least the concept thereof, and that his publisher pushed him into writing it, but w/e.)


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Wagner pioneered new forms of harmony, explored the junction of multiple artforms within the envelope of opera, and developed the idea of the leitmotif- which allowed for sophisticated layers of meaning in music. There are three great thoughts Wagner had.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

The very idea to create an opera out of Germanic mythology is simply awesome in my opinion. Nowadays we have Tolkien and a lot of other authors who have drawn inspiration from that part of Europe's cultural heritage, but Wagner was the pioneer there. I think with great admiration about that fact every time I listen to the Ring.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

bigshot said:


> Wagner pioneered new forms of harmony, explored the junction of multiple artforms within the envelope of opera, and developed the idea of the leitmotif- which allowed for sophisticated layers of meaning in music. There are three great thoughts Wagner had.


But these point Wagner out as a great composer not a great thinker. Interestingly, according to a recent BBC documentary, Wagner was not nearly such a great pioneer as often thought. What he did was to develop the ideas gleaned from others. Nothing wrong with that, of course.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

DavidA said:


> But these point Wagner out as a great composer not a great thinker.


And, as we all know, no thought whatsoever goes on during the composition of music.



DavidA said:


> Interestingly, according to a recent BBC documentary, Wagner was not nearly such a great pioneer as often thought. What he did was to develop the ideas gleaned from others.


Rather like everybody else who is described as a 'great thinker', you mean?


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

DavidA said:


> But these point Wagner out as a great composer not a great thinker.


Contrary to modern opinion, composition requires thought. But if you're going to define "thought" as extra-musical, like doing quadratic equasions in his head, envisioning a plan for world peace or thinking up a cure for cancer, then no, Wagner was not that.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

SiegendesLicht said:


> The very idea to create an opera out of Germanic mythology is simply awesome in my opinion. Nowadays we have Tolkien and a lot of other authors who have drawn inspiration from that part of Europe's cultural heritage, but Wagner was the pioneer there.


Mallory and Scott had a lot to do with it before Wagner's time.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Wow Wagner has it tough. Which other composers are expected to be Aristotle and Shakespeare in addition to Beethoven?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

ahammel said:


> And, as we all know, no thought whatsoever goes on during the composition of music.
> 
> Rather like everybody else who is described as a 'great thinker', you mean?


I tend to associate 'thinking' with what he said, some of which, like Jewishness in Music and Heroism and Christianity has been described as demented.

Not 'great thinking'!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I note this man also has trouble with Wagner's thinking:

http://www.thelocal.de/society/20130519-49793.html#.UZpk-Iy9KSM


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

DavidA said:


> I tend to associate 'thinking' with what he said, some of which, like Jewishness in Music and Heroism and Christianity has been described as demented.
> 
> Not 'great thinking'!


No it certainly wasn't. Wagner is hardly the only person who has said stupid things when straying from his area of expertise.

Some of his other thoughts on the subjects of opera in general, music, and conducting have been of lasting value, though.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Wagner may not have had great thoughts outside of music but make no mistake the man was a genius. I mean just listen to _Tristan und Isolde_ or _Gotterdammerung_. These are prime examples of someone who's not of this Earth. Someone may not care for his music and that's fine but one cannot deny what an incredible mind he had to have created all of those vast sound-worlds. I don't listen to Wagner that often but I hear in his music the beginnings of the 20th Century. He was a true trailblazer.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Neo Romanza said:


> Wagner may not have had great thoughts outside of music but make no mistake the man was a genius. I mean just listen to _Tristan und Isolde_ or _Gotterdammerung_. These are prime examples of someone who's not of this Earth. Someone may not care for his music and that's fine but one cannot deny what an incredible mind he had to have created all of those vast sound-worlds. I don't listen to Wagner that often but I hear in his music the beginnings of the 20th Century. He was a true trailblazer.


I think we are confusing 'talent' (or genius) with being a thinker. I have known people who are scientific geniuses but I wouldn't describe them as thinkers as to me a being a 'thinker' implies a far greater grasp of life. Outside of his music I wouldn't rate Wagner as a thinker. But I wouldn't rate Beethoven or Mozart either, although I revere their genius as composers.


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## SilenceIsGolden (May 5, 2013)

DavidA said:


> The 'love' Wagner had was for himself and his own self-agrandisement. In Cosima he found a woman who shared his own self-infatuation and self-adoration.


He certainly had an astonishing ego. And yet if we don't give in to the temptation to separate the man and the artist, but instead see them as two sides of the same coin, we realize that without his egotism it's highly unlikely Wagner would have had the will and persistence to create the art work that he did.

Father M Owen Lee has some worthy thoughts on the subject:

"Wagner, like many creative artists but to an extreme degree, could not rest, for he was compelled - he sometimes said he was sentenced - by some inner demon to write the immense body of work he had outlined for himself one summer when he was only thirty-two...The once-traditional picture of Wagner as the confident egotist self-indulgently composing at his ease is almost completely false. To read his letters and the diaries of his wife Cosima is to read a day-by-day account of a man plagued with self-doubt, self-pity, and self-destructive impulses, in flight and frustration and fear, recurrently in the grip of erysipelas or Roemheld's syndrome or, near the end, increasingly frequent heart spasms, ever in need of support, often emotionally isolated...Wagner, like the Philoctetes of Sophocles, needed healing and wholeness. His operas massively strive for, and in the end achieve, the completeness we all hope to find in the lives given us to lead. Ultimately the self-absorbed Wagner wrote for the rest of us."



DavidA said:


> In real life he was a notorious womaniser who survived only through the patience and good will of others.


I wonder if calling him a womanizer isn't overstating the case a bit. Like most topics involving Wagner, the truth has to be overblown and exaggerated to the point that he goes from being a deeply flawed and conflicted human being (which I believe he was) to being an absolute monster (which I don't believe he was, not even close).

Wagner certainly had sexual desires, but as the record of his life shows that his relationships were never motivated by sexual gratification. He needed, more than anything, feminine understanding. In any who did not understand his art and his goals in life, male or female, he had little interest. If we look at his relationship with his first wife Minna, we see that they were in no way suitable for one another. In fact, shortly after their marriage she ran away with another man. Twice. They were tempermentally, intellectually, and artistically worlds apart. It is a mystery why they didn't give up trying to live together until after decades of misery had passed. Yet through all this, Wagner kept Minna's secret about her illegitimate daughter who she passed off as her sister, and through years of his having to beg for money and funding, and as debts piled up, he always found the means to support Minna.

In the face of this his affair with Mathilde Wesendonck is easy to grasp. Morally wrong? Maybe, but it was no one's fault, and all the evidence suggests that it was never actually physically consummated. She was his muse.

Then we come to his second marriage, a mutually beneficial and productive partnership, with Cosima being a rock and constant support through all the massive responsibilities of the last years of his life. So again, maybe I'm missing it but I don't really get the whole womanizer thing.



DavidA said:


> The Ring is entertainment. No more no less. It should not be viewed in any other light.


Well, you are certainly are entitled to your opinions. Interesting that you feel that way though, since the reason so many are opposed to his works is because they are so obviously not for casual consumption. They are notoriously challenging and place large demands on the spectator.

But as long as we are giving out opinions, I might as well add mine. I think his music dramas are art in the highest sense, they enrich my life and at their best transform and heighten consciousness.



DavidA said:


> Wagner said no more and no less than other opera composers. I know he fancied himself as a philosopher but he wasn't any good at it. There is nothing philosophically profound in his operas, much though people make of them.


False. Wagner's music dramas are full of profound ideas, they deal successfully in archetypes and other universal attributes of the human psyche, with proto-Freudian and proto-Jungian insight. Like all great dramatists he had a intuitive understanding of human behavior. And being the creative genius he was, all of these elements are thoroughly metabolized in his works of art. He had an immense gift for what he himself called "the emotionalizing of the intellect".



DavidA said:


> I tend to associate 'thinking' with what he said, some of which, like Jewishness in Music and Heroism and Christianity has been described as demented.
> 
> Not 'great thinking'!


Hmm. You seem to be implying that his antisemitism excludes him from being able to be considered a great thinker in any other manner, which of course ignores the fact that prejudices of this sort are at their core irrational. This is especially obvious in Wagner's case, because many of his closet friends and supporters were Jews.

The fact is besides his genius as a composer and a dramatist, and his gifts as a poet, he possessed a very powerful intellect. He was well read in philosophy, linguistics and philology. He had a vast working knowledge of classical Greek literature and drama, and was well researched in mythological sources. His writings are full of good ideas. Wagner the essayist is an indispensable mentor to conductors and singing actors, an inspirational analyst of late Beethoven, a shrewd critic of contemporary opera. Besides this, many of his thought provoking ideas about Greek tragedy were a great influence on Nietzsche, and found their way into Nietzsche's The Birth of Tragedy, which was dedicated to Wagner.

In fact, as the writer Bryan Magee points out, even his essay Judaism in Music has a very intriguing argument at it's core, if you dig through the offensive language it is couched in. I would suggest reading his essay "Jews--Not Least In Music" from his book Aspects of Wagner to learn what that essay truly consists of.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

SilenceIsGolden said:


> Then we come to his second marriage, a mutually beneficial and productive partnership, with Cosima being a rock and constant support through all the massive responsibilities of the last years of his life. So again, maybe I'm missing it but I don't really get the whole womanizer thing.


I really like this passage. Whatever character flaws Cosima might have had, she was indeed a faithful friend and partner to Wagner - the best thing a wife could be for her husband.

Concerning Wagner's writings, I actually enjoy some of them (no, not the _Judentum_ thing ), particularly "A Pilgrimage to Beethoven", "An End in Paris" - a bitter irony on Wagner's own experience in that city and "On German Music" - a reflection on the German musical situation of that time, written with an attitude of most touching warmth and respect.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

SilenceIsGolden said:


> He certainly had an astonishing ego. And yet if we don't give in to the temptation to separate the man and the artist, but instead see them as two sides of the same coin, we realize that without his egotism it's highly unlikely Wagner would have had the will and persistence to create the art work that he did.
> 
> Father M Owen Lee has some worthy thoughts on the subject:
> 
> ...


Just to say you're entitled to your opinions. But it really fascinates me how people try and whitewash and justify this man and his opinions. You are telling me this man was a great thinker. Yet also that his most deeply held opinions we're irrational? What other of his thoughts were also irrational then?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> I really like this passage. Whatever character flaws Cosima might have had, she was indeed a faithful friend and partner to Wagner - the best thing a wife could be for her husband.
> 
> Concerning Wagner's writings, I actually enjoy some of them (no, not the _Judentum_ thing ), particularly "A Pilgrimage to Beethoven", "An End in Paris" - a bitter irony on Wagner's own experience in that city and "On German Music" - a reflection on the German musical situation of that time, written with an attitude of most touching warmth and respect.


I think we can say Richard and Cosima thoroughly deserved each other.


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## SilenceIsGolden (May 5, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Just to say you're entitled to your opinions. But it really fascinates me how people try and whitewash and justify this man and his opinions. You are telling me this man was a great thinker. Yet also that his most deeply held opinions we're irrational? What other of his thoughts were also irrational then?


I think you misunderstand. My intention is not to whitewash or justify him and his opinions. I find his antisemitic statements just as deplorable as you do, and do not condone many of his actions. I could not in good conscience say "eh, his antisemitism wasn't that bad". It was very bad, and it drew attention even in the inherently antisemitic society he lived in. On the contrary, my intention is to better understand him and his character, understand _why_ he acted in certain ways, and to demonstrate that his antisemitism did not engulf and color his entire personality and affect his every train of thought. To believe that is to have a gross misunderstanding of Wagner the man.

And yes, I think it's possible for someone to be a great thinker while having a deeply held personal prejudice. It shows that prejudices like this are not impaired by reality, and that when they are born out of a mixture of personal humiliation, cultural concerns, and a sense of being betrayed as it was for Wagner, it is impossible for the person to think on the subject rationally as he might for other subjects. It was obviously an irrational hatred, because Wagner had genuine affection for many actual Jews that he knew personally.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

SilenceIsGolden said:


> I think you misunderstand. My intention is not to whitewash or justify him and his opinions. I find his antisemitic statements just as deplorable as you do, and do not condone many of his actions. I could not in good conscience say "eh, his antisemitism wasn't that bad". It was very bad, and it drew attention even in the inherently antisemitic society he lived in. On the contrary, my intention is to better understand him and his character, understand _why_ he acted in certain ways, and to demonstrate that his antisemitism did not engulf and color his entire personality and affect his every train of thought. To believe that is to have a gross misunderstanding of Wagner the man.
> 
> And yes, I think it's possible for someone to be a great thinker while having a deeply held personal prejudice. It shows that prejudices like this are not impaired by reality, and that when they are born out of a mixture of personal humiliation, cultural concerns, and a sense of being betrayed as it was for Wagner, it is impossible for the person to think on the subject rationally as he might for other subjects. It was obviously an irrational hatred, because Wagner had genuine affection for many actual Jews that he knew personally.


I think you miss the point. Prejudice is all part of the thinking process. It was not as if Wagner just said a few anti-semetic remarks to friends. He published volumes of his thoughts on the subject. Hence we are not dealing with an irrational prejudice but a deeply held belief which he had thought over his position on. You can say the fact that Wagner had friendships with Jews - those he thought would be advantageous to him - a sign the man did not think through his position.
His operas are not full of great thoughts. They are pretty superficial as are most operas. What we must realise that it is not the profundity of the words that moves us - it is the power of the music.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

You know, what I'm thinking? I imagine a lot of New Yorkers (and other Americans) after 9/11 and similar more recent events are not exactly muslim-friendly. Does that make them into evil monsters and negate all good things they have ever done?


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## SilenceIsGolden (May 5, 2013)

DavidA said:


> I think you miss the point. Prejudice is all part of the thinking process. It was not as if Wagner just said a few anti-semetic remarks to friends. He published volumes of his thoughts on the subject. Hence we are not dealing with an irrational prejudice but a deeply held belief which he had thought over his position on. You can say the fact that Wagner had friendships with Jews - those he thought would be advantageous to him - a sign the man did not think through his position.


I can assure you, I am not missing anything. It doesn't matter who he said these remarks to, where he published them, or how often. Just because he published these thoughts does _not_ mean they were rationally or accurately considered. Of course he may _thought_ they were, but that doesn't change the fact that because of the personal hurt and embarrassment that spurred these feelings and this prejudice, he was not able to think on this subject with the rationale, clarity and objectiveness he might be able to on another subject. Which _does_ go back to the main point: having a personal prejudice, or even being absolutely wrong-headed about a particular issue does not prevent someone from being a great thinker, or having interesting ideas. Would you say that Karl Marx wasn't a great thinker because he too was antisemitic?

And exactly, the fact that he had Jewish friends does mean he did not or could not think through his position on this particular topic. Again, signs of an irrational prejudice. And believe it or not, he wasn't some walking talking antisemitic monster who's every move was determined by his racism. He was capable of real, compassionate, sincere friendships and relationships. Even with Jews. And again, pretty much every thing he did and everyone he met had to be able to further his goals or sympathize and support his efforts. Jews were no different in that than anyone else. But that goes back to a point I made a couple of posts ago, and this whole conversation is beginning to feel very circular.



DavidA said:


> His operas are not full of great thoughts. They are pretty superficial as are most operas. What we must realise that it is not the profundity of the words that moves us - it is the power of the music.


You seem to be fond of continually claiming your opinions are stone cold fact. I say they _are_ full of great thoughts, are not superficial in the least, and, being operas, obviously use music as the major force to convey emotions and further the drama, but by no means are entirely dependent on said music.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

SilenceIsGolden said:


> You seem to be fond of continually claiming your opinions are stone cold fact. .


And you don't do the same, of course?


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## SilenceIsGolden (May 5, 2013)

DavidA said:


> And you don't do the same, of course?


Well it's not my intention. All I can do is relate my own experience of his operas and and convey that they are absolutely not how you present them. I find that they are not only full of good ideas but in fact inexhaustible; that they continue to yield new meanings every time I listen to them, and every time I look at them from a different perspective or someone points out something new that I never noticed before they can be seen in a whole new light. Now, if I felt this was a productive discussion I wouldn't mind sharing and contrasting ideas and concepts I see in Wagner's operas with others. In fact I find that sort of thing very enjoyable. But you only seem interested in incessantly hammering away at the same points, making derisive comments and attempting to stir up controversy. Well I leave you to argue round and round and round with someone else. Good day.


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## Marisol (May 25, 2013)

Muddy said:


> Today I listened to the first hour or so of Tristan. The Prelude is awesome, but after that, where is the music? ... all I hear is endless dialogue, shrieking or bellowing. Where is the melody? Granted, I am very new to Wagner, but I believe that I have a very good ear and I am struggling.


What I think helps listening to a Wagner opera is:

1. Be familiar with the story and have the libretto in front of you (and translation if necessary).
2. Try to identify the leitmotifs and their associations with the characters.
3. Think of the music as adding dramatic effect to the story and as commentary of the players actions.

A Wagner and a Mozart opera are two different worlds, it is hard to compare them.


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