# Works that composers SHOULD be known for



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I am sure that we can all think of some composers whose popularity is not based on their best works.

As an example, *Respighi* - _Metamorphoseon_ deserves to be as well known as the _Roman Trilogy_

Any other suggestions?


----------



## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

Ravel should be known for _Daphnis et Chloe_ rather than _Bolero_ - which, I might add, isn't even one of his better works.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Becca said:


> I am sure that we can all think of some composers whose popularity is not based on their best works.
> 
> As an example, *Respighi* - _Metamorphoseon_ deserves to be as well known as the _Roman Trilogy_
> 
> Any other suggestions?


. . . or the _Belkis Queen of Sheeba_ ballet, _Church Windows_, or his epic opera _Semirama_.


----------



## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Beethoven should be better known for his Symphony 7 over Symphony 5. Both are great works!


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Grieg is best known for Peer Gynt and his piano concerto, but for me his best works are his violin sonatas and his songs.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Marschallin Blair said:


> . . . or the _Belkis Queen of Sheeba_ ballet, _Church Windows_, or his epic opera _Semirama_.


I would agree with you regarding _Church Windows_ but _Belkis_ ... that thought gives me a headache


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Grieg is best known for Peer Gynt and his piano concerto, but for me his best works are his violin sonatas and his songs.


Ah yes: 'Kirsten.'


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Becca said:


> I would agree with you regarding _Church Windows_ but _Belkis_ ... that thought gives me a headache


Oh I LOOOOOOVE it- _soooo_ exotic. MGM's _Quo Vadis, King of Kings, and Ben Hur_- mixed with say, Florent Schmitt's _Salammbo_- pure Levantine, opulent, spectacle, _decadence_. _;D_


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Oh I LOOOOOOVE it- _soooo_ exotic. MGM's _Quo Vadis, King of Kings, and Ben Hur_- mixed with say, Florent Schmitt's _Salammbo_- pure Levantine, opulent, spectacle, _decadence_. _;D_




Currently playing - _La Pentola Magica_ - more my style (at least this evening).


----------



## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

Beethoven's late period Cello Sonatas (especially No. 4, which like most of his late period works, has a heavy strain of weirdness). Also the Violin Sonatas (not named "Kreutzer" or "Spring") should be better known. No. 10 is more "pastoral" than the 6th symphony! It's some of the most beautiful music he ever wrote. I also love No. 7.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Becca said:


> Currently playing - _La Pentola Magica_ - more my style (at least this evening).


The opening to that is beautiful. After it gets going for awhile it even sounds like it Rimsky-Korsakov's music- but of course it isn't.

Thanks for mentioning it. I just finished listening to it on You Tube.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

I think anything by Ralph Vaughan Williams is dignified, redeeming, and beautiful- but I feel his virtually unknown _Epithalamion_ cantata deserves more than an honorable mention; as well as the "Three Kings March" from his _Hodie _Christmas cantata.

The _Epithalamion _is celebratory erotic exuberance and the "Three Kings March" is the stuff of titans.


----------



## SeptimalTritone (Jul 7, 2014)

John Cage's Roaratorio for electronics (i.e. magnetic tape), speaker, and folk instruments is an all time classic, and a synthesis of all the best qualities of his unique style and voice. It is an absolute masterpiece of his late period and deserves to be better known. It's incredible!


----------



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Rossini---William Tell


----------



## SeptimalTritone (Jul 7, 2014)

Other works that should be better known:

Xenakis's Persepolis is probably one of the best electroacoustic pieces, like, ever. It's a giant ride through the universe.

Feldman's Crippled Symmetry is also somewhat neglected. It's a buzzing, energetic, colorful, and deep experience. Yes, it has the same instrumentation as For Philip Guston (flute, piano/celesta, and percussion), but it is not merely an inferior version: it's a wild sound world.

Mozart and Brahms both wrote wonderful clarinet trios. Their clarinet quintets are more famous, but their clarinet trios have a strength and intamacy in the dialogue between the clarinet, viola/cello, and piano.


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Dukas, known for _The Sorcerer's Apprentice_, should be known for his piano sonata.


----------



## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

Saint-Saens shouldn't be primarily known for Carnival of the Animals but by a piece such as his perfect Clarinet Sonata.


----------



## Frei aber froh (Feb 22, 2013)

As much as I love the Fifth Symphony, I would prefer it if Shostakovich were known for his Fourth.


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Purcell, probably best known for _Dido and Aeneas_, especially "When I am Laid in Earth," or perhaps for _The Fairy Queen_, should be known for _King Arthur_.


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Fauré, best known for his _Requiem_, should be known for his piano quintets.


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Martinu, best known not for his _Field Mass_, should be known for his _Field Mass_!


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Bernstein, best known for _West Side Story_, should be known for his second symphony.


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Enescu, best known for his _Romanian Rhapsody #1_, should be known for his opera, _Oedipe_.


----------



## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

Berlioz best known for Symphonie fantastique, It should be Les Nuits d’été !


----------



## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Barber, rather than Adagio for strings, should be known for Knoxville summer of 1915.


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Orchestras have made sure that composers stay known for what they're known for.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

starthrower said:


> Orchestras have made sure that composers stay known for what they're known for.


Frayed knot ~ orchestras capitulate quite readily to what is the most favored by the broadest of public tastes, which are not always near the finer / finest of a composer's output.

Look at Art Rock's post #25, above, a perfect example: 
Barber, _Adagio for strings,_ then the quintessential work many consider the composer's masterpiece, _Knoxville Summer of 1915._


----------



## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Messiaen, best known for the Quartet for the End of Time and Turangalila Symphonie should be known for _Éclairs sur l'au-delà..._


----------



## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

Wagner, best known for _Die Walküre_ should be known for _Parsifal._

Sibelius, best known for _Finlandia_ and the _Violin Concerto_ should be known for _Symphony No. 4_ and _Tapiola_.

Debussy, best known for _Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune_ and _La mer_ should be known for _Pelléas et Mélisande_ and _Jeux_.

a more realistic version of 'should be known for':

Wagner - Tannhäuser

Sibelius - Symphony No. 5

Debussy - his entire oeuvre except Le Martyre de saint Sébastien or any "completion" of his Poe operas


----------



## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

Pavel Haas, best known for having a string quartet named for him, or being "that other Haas" should be known for his own 2nd string quartet.


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Manuel de Falla - El amor brujo or Noches en los jardines de Espana rather than The Three-Cornered Hat.

Korngold - Symphony in F# major op. 40 or the opera Die todt Stadt op. 12 rather than the 'Errol Flynn' film music.

Sibelius - Symphony no. 7 in C major op. 105 rather than Finlandia.


----------



## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Rachmaninoff should be better known for his Preludes and sacred music than for his concertos or symphonies.


----------



## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

*Rimsky-Korsakov* and *Tchaikovsky* should be better known for their operas, rather than the overplayed orchestral works that are clogging the concert halls. And I'll take *Shostakovich's* "Lady Macbeth" over his Fifth Symphony.

And on, and on, and on.


----------



## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

isorhythm said:


> Rachmaninoff should be better known for his Preludes and sacred music than for his concertos or symphonies.


Plus his Etudes Tableaux and his First Piano Sonata. I'll also add his one act opera "The Miserly Knight" which is pretty compelling stuff.


----------



## Guest (Feb 12, 2015)

John Cage, primarily known for 4'33" and the prepared piano, should also be known for the late number pieces (all the way up to 110!).

Leif Segerstam, primarily known as a conductor who also wrote a bunch of symphonies nobody's ever heard, should also be known for his symphonies, which are really quite nice.

Kaikhosru Shapurji Sorabji, primarily known as a composer of ridiculously long piano works, should also be known as a composer of ridiculously long organ works.


----------



## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

Britten should be known more for his later operas, such as _A Midsummer Night's Dream_ and _Death in Venice_, than for his _Young Persons' Guide to the Orchestra_.


----------



## Oscarf (Dec 13, 2014)

science said:


> Dukas, known for _The Sorcerer's Apprentice_, should be known for his piano sonata.


I would add La Peri and the Symphony in C


----------



## Oscarf (Dec 13, 2014)

isorhythm said:


> Rachmaninoff should be better known for his Preludes and sacred music than for his concertos or symphonies.


+1 for the sacred music, a totally different Rachmaninoff from what we are used to listen


----------



## Gaspard de la Nuit (Oct 20, 2014)

Celloman said:


> Ravel should be known for _Daphnis et Chloe_ rather than _Bolero_ - which, I might add, isn't even one of his better works.


He should be known for everything other than Bolero.....Daphnis et Chloe is gaining in popularity I think, it's only a matter of time before people discover how great the full ballet of Ma Mere l'Oye is.....literally every work of his is a masterpiece.

IMO Wagner should be more known for Meistersinger than Tristan, it's an infinitely better opera. But music students get an earful of Tristan and comparatively little else.

Prokofiev should be 'known' for Scythian Suite, but I don't hear it nearly as often as much of his others.

Vaughan Williams' Bass Tuba Concerto.....the outer movements are plenty of fun and the middle one is as deep as anything that's ever been written.

Scriabin's symphonies - the potency of his musical ideas in these works exceeds anyone else in the genre who might be called 'Romantic', they are easily the most exciting among Romantic symphonies proper, though not the most finely crafted.


----------



## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Michael Nyman should be known for something other than The Heart Still Loves You, or whatever that piece is called. I kind of like Where The Bee Dances, but pretty much anything will do.


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

isorhythm said:


> Rachmaninoff should be better known for his Preludes and sacred music than for his concertos or symphonies.


I believe he used to be better known for his sacred music than for his piano works, way way way back in the day.


----------



## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Stravinsky should be equally well-known for his neoclassical and serial music as he is for his early ballets.


----------



## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

isorhythm said:


> Stravinsky should be equally well-known for his neoclassical and serial music as he is for his early ballets.


YES.

Particularly masterworks like Threni, Apollo, Agon, Duo Concertant, and A Sermon, A Narrative, and A Prayer.

Hmm...I suppose I'm supposed to add something for Mahler here.

I think the works he's well-known for (the First and Second Symphonies, the Adagietto, the Wunderhorn lieder) are great, but I think the works that are not quite as popular are just as good if not better. I fell in love with Mahler through his middle-period works myself, with a particular fondness for the Ruckert-lieder and the Sixth Symphony.


----------



## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Mahlerian said:


> YES.
> 
> Particularly masterworks like Threni, Apollo, Agon, Duo Concertant, and A Sermon, A Narrative, and A Prayer.


I second everything on this list and would add the Requiem Canticles, Mass, Symphony of Psalms and Canticum Sacrum.


----------



## ddavewes (Dec 7, 2014)

Dvorak - Requiem
Shostakovich - 24 Preludes and Fugues
Mendelssohn - late string quartets


----------



## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

Liszt, better known for his second Hungarian Rhapsody, SHOULD be known for his three Years of Pilgrimage


----------



## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

Elgar probably best known for the Pomp and Circumstance March No4 should be better known for just about anything else he wrote


----------



## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Cosmos said:


> Liszt, better known for his second Hungarian Rhapsody, SHOULD be known for his three Years of Pilgrimage


Liszt should pretty much be known for all the things he isn't known for, and not known for all the things he is known for.


----------



## JACE (Jul 18, 2014)

isorhythm said:


> Liszt should pretty much be known for all the things he isn't known for, and not known for all the things he is known for.


I dunno. I like pretty much ALL of Liszt's music -- even the "trashy" stuff.


----------



## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Becca said:


> I am sure that we can all think of some composers whose popularity is not based on their best works.
> 
> As an example, *Respighi* - _Metamorphoseon_ deserves to be as well known as the _Roman Trilogy_
> 
> Any other suggestions?


John Cage, _4'33"_. He ought to be known for his potentially better works, not for being infamous with _Silence_.


----------



## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

ArtMusic said:


> John Cage, _4'33"_. He ought to be known for his potentially better works, not for being infamous with _Silence_.


Actually, I think _Silence_ is pretty well thought of.


----------



## CBD (Nov 11, 2013)

Prokofiev, known for Dance of the Knights, should be known for his first Violin Sonata

Scriabin, known for Sonata no. 5, should be known for Sonata no. 10


----------



## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Boy, the "should" word sure gets a lot a traction around here. To me, words that are over-used lose their significance. I favor the works and composers who appeal to me - has nothing to do with should.


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Bulldog said:


> Boy, the "should" word sure gets a lot a traction around here. To me, words that are over-used lose their significance. I favor the works and composers who appeal to me - has nothing to do with should.


I get where you're coming from. I _should_ probably have just said that I like X even more than Y. Hopefully it's just fun and games though.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The meaning of "should" in this thread is that "those people's" judgment and taste could use some improvement.

Well, far be it from any of us in this sanctuary of catholicity, relativity and tolerance to tell any of "them" what they "should" like and listen to, but just between you and me...


----------



## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

Surely I can't be the only one that thinks _Missa Solemnis_ is one of the many works that could realistically be considered Beethoven's greatest work. It seems to be one of his most forgotten masterpieces.


----------



## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

DiesIraeVIX said:


> Surely I can't be the only one that thinks _Missa Solemnis_ is one of the many works that could realistically be considered Beethoven's greatest work. It seems to be one of his most forgotten masterpieces.


Agree 100 percent.


----------



## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

science said:


> Dukas, known for _The Sorcerer's Apprentice_, should be known for his piano sonata.


Or for his magic ballet score La Péri.



Badinerie said:


> Berlioz best known for Symphonie fantastique, It should be Les Nuits d'été !


Or La damnation de Faust/ Harold en Italie.


----------



## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

Holst Choral Hymns from the Rig Veda or Two Suites for military band rather than The Planets...


----------



## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

Tomaso Albinoni should be known for something he actually wrote, instead of the _Adagio in G minor_ which was attributed to him.


----------



## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> The meaning of "should" in this thread is that "those people's" judgment and taste could use some improvement.
> 
> Well, far be it from any of us in this sanctuary of catholicity, relativity and tolerance to tell any of "them" what they "should" like and listen to, but just between you and me...


I don't think of it that way. A lot of times popularity of one thing over another is simply due to exposure and framing (would Fur Elise be as popular if it were simply known as a Bagatelle in A minor?).


----------



## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

A few that popped into my head before I read the whole thread (so, apologies for any duplications).

Albinoni - Anything that he actually wrote (instead of the fake _Adagio_ by Remo Giazotto)
Alfvén - For his symphonies (instead of Swedish Rhapsody No 1) 
JS Bach - Anything that he actually wrote (instead of the HIGHLY spurious Toccata and Fugue in D minor, BWV 565)
Barber - _Knoxville 1915_ (instead of the _Adagio for Strings_)
Beethoven - Symphony No 7 (instead of the 5th, or _Für Elise_ or the _Moonlight_ Sonata)
Frank Bridge - For his _Oration_ (the best cello concerto that's never played)(instead of being Britten's teacher)
Dukas - for the rather fine Symphony in C major or _La Peri_ (instead of _L'apprenti sorcier_)
Enescu - for almost anything except the Romanian Rhapsodies
Handel - _La resurrezzione_ (instead of _Messiah_)
Holst - For _Egdon Heath_ (instead of _The Planets_)
Musorgsky - _Songs and Dances of Death_ (instead of _Night on (the) Bare (Bald) Mountain_)
Pachelbel - Any of his fine organ music (instead of that excruciating Canon)
Prokofiev - For his 6th Symphony (instead of the _Classical_ or 5th)
Respighi - _Il tramonto_ (instead of the _Roman Triology_)
Shostakovich - For the 4th, 8th, 10th or 13th symphonies or _Lady Macbeth_ (instead of the 5th Symphony)
Sinding - For his Violin Concerto or symphonies (instead of _The Rustle of Spring_)
Tchaikovsky - For the _Manfred_ Symphony (instead of Nos 4, 5 or 6 or the _1812_)
Vivaldi - For his _Nisi Dominus_ (instead of _The Four Seasons_)


----------



## TresPicos (Mar 21, 2009)

Shostakovich - for his Piano Quintet


----------



## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

Liszt - Prometheus

Seriously, this one's really cool.


----------



## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

> Barber - Knoxville 1915 (instead of the Adagio for Strings)


Also his piano and cello concertos instead of Adagio.



> Ravel should be known for Daphnis et Chloe rather than Bolero


He should be know for almost _anything_ rather than Bolero. Bolero is trite and uninteresting, as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Agreed and I prefer his opera Vanessa over his Adagio too.



Simon Moon said:


> Also his piano and cello concertos instead of Adagio.
> 
> He should be know for almost _anything_ rather than Bolero. Bolero is trite and uninteresting, as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## Guest (Feb 13, 2015)

Composers should be known for their operas instead of Maria Callas being known for them.


----------



## SeptimalTritone (Jul 7, 2014)

Georg Haas tends to be known for In Vain and Limited Approximations, but I think that String Quartets 3 and 7 are more impressive (although maybe that's just my bias towards small ensembles and string quartets...)

Stockhausen should be known better for Sternklang, a remarkable combination of instruments, voices, and electronics and an amazing sound world. Seriously, why isn't it better known???

La Monte Young, best known for The Well Tuned Piano (and deservedly so, I love it very much) should also be better known for Dream House 78'17''.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

J.S. Bach Keyboard Partitas and Viola da Gamba Sonatas instead of the same old, same old Orchestral Suites and Brandenburg Concertos. So much depth to Bach!!


----------



## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

I'm primarily known for composing stupid thread ideas, but I think my 500+ word invisible posts about philosophy, politics & musicology are vastly underrated.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Dim7 said:


> I'm primarily known for composing stupid thread ideas, but I think my 500+ word invisible posts about philosophy, politics & musicology are vastly underrated.


Yes! You are one of the few posters I don't need a course in advanced reading comprehension to understand.


----------



## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

hpowders said:


> Yes! You are one of the few posters I don't need a course in advanced reading comprehension to understand.


Damn it, and I thought I was so profound and incomprehensible. Maybe I should just copy PetrB's post and put the words in a random order. But even then, with a nickname like this, people will still question my wit...


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Dim7 said:


> Damn it, and I thought I was so profound and incomprehensible. Maybe I should just copy PetrB's post and put the words in a random order. But even then, with a nickname like this, people will still question my wit...


I always read his posts with two dictionaries on hand: an easy one and one that has words no dawg on the street like me ever uses!!


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

nathanb said:


> Composers should be known for their operas instead of Maria Callas being known for them.


If some of those composers were as good at what they did as Callas was at what she did, your wish would come true.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Dim7 said:


> I'm primarily known for composing stupid thread ideas, but I think my 500+ word invisible posts about philosophy, politics & musicology are vastly underrated.


How do you know your actual threads are rated higher?


----------



## Guest (Feb 14, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> If some of those composers were as good at what they did as Callas was at what she did, your wish would come true.


Reducing the greatness of the operatic form to a single vocal role (over and over and over and over...) is a bit of insult to the composers, if you ask me.

Judith Weir wrote a sort of opera/monodrama for a single soprano voice and no instrumental accompaniment. That sort of thing might be up the alley of the rampant Callas fanatics around here.

If Verdi were seeking some sort of constructive criticism on an early opera of his, perhaps in regard to matters of structure or orchestration, and no one could stop blabbing about the lead soprano...well I don't suppose he'd ever get what he sought.

Mind you, I agree Callas is a great soprano. But it ends there.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Dim7 said:


> Damn it, and I thought I was so profound and incomprehensible. Maybe I should just copy PetrB's post and put the words in a random order. But even then, with a nickname like this, people will still question my wit...


Dim7 using the Dim Cap defense? You're not gonna get off that easy, guy.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> If some of those composers were as good at what they did as Callas was at what she did, your wish would come true.


If more classical performers and composers were as superb and electrifying at what they did as Aretha Franklin was at what she did, all of classical music would move up several notches.


----------



## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

PetrB said:


> If more classical performers and composers were as superb and electrifying at what they did as Aretha Franklin was at what she did, all of classical music would move up several notches.


I am right with you on that one


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Originally Posted by nathanb:
Composers should be known for their operas instead of Maria Callas being known for them.

Posted by Woodduck:
If some of those composers were as good at what they did as Callas was at what she did, your wish would come true.



nathanb said:


> *Reducing the greatness of the operatic form to a single vocal role *(over and over and over and over...) is a bit of insult to the composers, if you ask me.
> 
> Judith Weir wrote a sort of opera/monodrama for a single soprano voice and no instrumental accompaniment. That sort of thing might be up the alley of the *rampant Callas fanatics around here. *
> 
> ...


My point was simply that some of the operas that Callas sang are not all that distinguished as music or music drama and not necessarily very interesting without a great singer/musician/actor to bring color, nuance, and dynamism to them. Callas was not merely a great soprano, but by common consent one of the greatest performing musicians of modern times, and not all of the works she made fascinating to listen to were among the greatest operas of their or any other time. Hence, she was better at what she did than some of the composers were at what they did. Greatest in one's field vs. less than greatest in one's field.

I cannot imagine what you mean by "reducing the greatness of the operatic form to a single vocal role." But I can tell that it doesn't relate to my point.

I don't know what a "rampant Callas fanatic" is, or how many of them are around here. I know of a few people who are powerfully impressed by her art and like to talk about it. In fact I think there are millions of such people, and among them are many of the most distinguished musicians in the world: Bernstein, for example, who called Callas "the Bible of opera," or Claudio Arrau, who had his piano students listen to her recordings in order to understand phrasing.

Your Verdi scenario is a curious fiction. What point does it make?

There have been many great sopranos. Callas was more than that, and unique in the subtlety and depth of her art. It's not so easy to say where "it ends."


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> My point was simply that some of the operas that Callas sang are not all that distinguished as music or music drama and not necessarily very interesting without a great singer/musician/actor to bring color, nuance, and dynamism to them.


I agree. There are instrumental pieces, too, where great performers bring more to the work than is inherently in it, and those then 'carry the day' and elevate the work, (or at least the listener's experience of it) far beyond its level of real merit. (I have no truck with the argument, "well, then that was in the work already." -- that, a statement made by those who are not performers and simply can not know first-hand what they are talking about) Suffice it to say it is a reality that a performer can so imbue a work, via their performance, with something which is simply not anywhere in the score, nor was it ever in the composer.



Woodduck said:


> I don't know what a "rampant Callas fanatic" is, or how many of them are around here.


Consider yourself fortunate on both counts


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Originally Posted by nathanb:
> Composers should be known for their operas instead of Maria Callas being known for them.
> 
> Posted by Woodduck:
> ...


Absolutely.

Maria Callas could take an ultra-mundane opera like Cherubini's _Medea_ and touch you in the most sublime places by the sheer force of her dramatic and musical genius: the color, the shading, the dramatic inflections- she adds all of these interpretative musical nuances to the score. She sees beyond the notes, or rather what was tacitly hinted at in the notes but never so well thought out and expressed- and in such exquisite detail.

This is musical genius of an extremely high order.

Great conductors like Oliver Knussen or Pierre Boulez can conduct the same piece of music and one could scarcely tell them apart.

But when Maria Callas sings something like _La Traviata_ or _Medea_, no one else comes within a miracle mile of her musical and dramatic genius. She can instantiate mere notes on the page of a score into flesh-and-blood art like no one I've ever experienced.


----------



## Guest (Feb 14, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I cannot imagine what you mean by "reducing the greatness of the operatic form to a single vocal role." But I can tell that it doesn't relate to my point.


You do know that, besides the whole thing where she's not the only singer on stage and certainly not the only musician...she doesn't even appear in every scene?! It's mind-boggling - I didn't know I was the only one who actually listened to the orchestra when playing some opera.

I agree with PetrB, who points out that a great performance can give a work a little something extra. But we're not taking issue with a little something extra. Callas, a singular voice, is talked about (and frankly worshipped) on the opera subforum significantly more than some of the greatest opera composers of all time. "The Bible Of Opera"? Well, when I listen to her, I think she might be a book of that Bible - but when I see her discussed by some users here, I think she might be more along the lines of the Kim Kardashian of classical music.

Edit: Also, I'm glad that Callas' own fanclub already debunked the myth of "you just don't understand" in their fervor to put down poor old John Cage. Now they surely won't mind if I claim to be omniscient in the art of Callas.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

> Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
> 
> If some of those composers were as good at what they did as Callas was at what she did, your wish would come true.





PetrB said:


> If more classical performers and composers were as superb and electrifying at what they did as Aretha Franklin was at what she did, all of classical music would move up several notches.


And if Callas could only sing "Freedom" imagine how much better some paltry fare like _Norma_ would sound.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

nathanb said:


> You do know that, besides the whole thing where she's not the only singer on stage and certainly not the only musician...she doesn't even appear in every scene?! It's mind-boggling - I didn't know I was the only one who actually listened to the orchestra when playing some opera.
> 
> I agree with PetrB, who points out that a great performance can give a work a little something extra. But we're not taking issue with a little something extra. Callas, a singular voice, is talked about (and frankly worshipped) on the opera subforum significantly more than some of the greatest opera composers of all time. "The Bible Of Opera"? Well, when I listen to her, I think she might be a book of that Bible - but when I see her discussed by some users here, I think she might be more along the lines of the Kim Kardashian of classical music.
> Edit: Also, I'm glad that Callas' own fanclub already debunked the myth of "you just don't understand" in their fervor to put down poor old John Cage. Now they surely won't mind if I claim to be omniscient in the art of Callas.


Kim _Kardashian_?

Not unlike Pierre Boulez, the only flair is in her nostrils.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Badinerie said:


> Berlioz best known for Symphonie fantastique, It should be Les Nuits d'été !


Or *Les Troyens*.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Or *Les Troyens*.


. . . or _Benvenutto Cellini _(but 'yes,' first and foremost _Troyens_).


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Marschallin Blair said:


> And if Callas could only sing "Freedom" imagine how much better some paltry fare like _Norma_ would sound.


If we accept as part of the premise that Norma is paultry fare: herein lies the difference between a music lover and an opera / Callas fan (as in fan from _fanatic_):
The Callas fan will listen to the piece, or at least a selection of arias from the piece which Callas performed and recorded, where others would not listen to 'paltry fare' even if a god or goddess was singing it... because, well, it is still paltry fare, and the god or goddess has recorded much better music, which means one can hear them in non-paultry fare, which for some is a no-brainer choice which avoids 'the paultry fare.'

And this is where I am rather with Dim7 if I understood what he said, or what I think he meant to say... great opera or paultry fare, he suggested that focusing so much attention on one remarkable singer much diverts attention away from the piece itself, that he tends to listen to 'the whole enchilda' -- the score, the vocal parts included if it is opera, oratorio, cantata or song -- but the score is everything, and cam not be 'saved' or really (if already a strong piece) not _that_ much bettered by a remarkable performer.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

PetrB said:


> If we accept as part of the premise that Norma is paultry fare: herein lies the difference between a music lover and an opera / Callas fan (as in fan from _fanatic_):
> The Callas fan will listen to the piece, or at least a selection of arias from the piece which Callas performed and recorded, where others would not listen to 'paltry fare' even if a god or goddess was singing it.
> 
> And this is where I am rather with Dim7 if I understood what he said, or what I think he meant to say... great opera or paultry fare, he suggested that focusing so much attention on one remarkable singer much diverts attention away from the piece itself, that he tends to listen to 'the whole enchilda' -- the score, the vocal parts included if it is opera, oratorio, cantata or song -- but the score is everything, and not 'saved' or really (if already a strong piece) not _that_ much bettered by a remarkable performer.


_Quod vide_ post # 82 supra.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Prokofiev for his Piano Concerto No. 3. Not Peter and the Wolf.


----------



## Heliogabo (Dec 29, 2014)

Rachmaninov for his etudes tableux, y instead of piano concerto 2


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Satie for Relâche instead of the Gymnopédies.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Copland Piano Variations and not Appalachian Spring(even though I adore it).


----------



## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Marschallin Blair- Absolutely.

Maria Callas could take an ultra-mundane opera like Cherubini's Medea and touch you in the most sublime places by the sheer force of her dramatic and musical genius: the color, the shading, the dramatic inflections- she adds all of these interpretative musical nuances to the score. She sees beyond the notes, or rather what was tacitly hinted at in the notes but never so well thought out and expressed- and in such exquisite detail.

This is musical genius of an extremely high order.

Your comments remind me of Schubert (its been a day of lieder for me). Schubert could take a collection of mediocre poetry and turn it into the most sublime work of art. The same is true of Mahler. His _Das Lied von der Erde_ set a translation of a translation of a collection of Chinese poetry... and resulted in one of the greatest works of music ever composed IMO.

What needs to be remembered is that performers (singers, instrumentalists, conductors... or in other genre, actors, actresses, etc...) are "artists" as much as the composers. It is for this reason that some of us seek out multiple recordings of favorite works of music: to discover how various artists of great ability interpret the given composition. It is also the reason that we seek out performances by favorite performers, be it Callas, Schwarzkopf, Gould, Oistrakh, Richter, Philippe Jaroussky, Anne Sophie Mutter, Karajan, Carlos Kleiber, or Fritz Wunderlich (did a surname ever say it better?)... who I am listening to right now. In no way does this mean that we have forgotten the composers. I'm fully aware that I'm listening to Schubert now or Bach when I put on Glenn Gould's WTC... but I am also listening to Wunderlich and Gould.


----------



## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

If we accept as part of the premise that Norma is paultry fare: herein lies the difference between a music lover and an opera / Callas fan (as in fan from fanatic):
The Callas fan will listen to the piece, or at least a selection of arias from the piece which Callas performed and recorded, where others would not listen to 'paltry fare' even if a god or goddess was singing it... because, well, it is still paltry fare, and the god or goddess has recorded much better music, which means one can hear them in non-paultry fare, which for some is a no-brainer choice which avoids 'the paultry fare.'

PetrB, I don't buy this at all. I have come across any number of performances of works of music that as compositions were perhaps less-than-stellar... but were performed with such passion and fire that I truly became a believer in the merits of the work. At the same time, a mediocre or poor performance of the greatest works of of music can leave you less than impressed with the composition... especially if you were unaware of other performances.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Beethoven for his greatest work, the Missa Solemnis, NOT for the symphonies, piano sonatas or string quartets.


----------



## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Boy, the "should" word sure gets a lot a traction around here. To me, words that are over-used lose their significance. I favor the works and composers who appeal to me - has nothing to do with should.

Yes... I've always hated the word "SHOULD" when applied to artists.


----------



## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Celloman said:


> Tomaso Albinoni should be known for something he actually wrote, instead of the _Adagio in G minor_ which was attributed to him.


Actually I would think most Baroque music listeners know him mostly for his various marvelous concertos:


----------



## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Boy, the "should" word sure gets a lot a traction around here. To me, words that are over-used lose their significance. I favor the works and composers who appeal to me - has nothing to do with should.
> 
> Yes... I've always hated the word "SHOULD" when applied to artists.


Me too. I prefer "OUGHT TO."


----------



## MJongo (Aug 6, 2011)

Shostakovich for his Piano Quintet
Bach for Die Kunst der Fuge
Beethoven for his Große Fuge


----------



## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

MJongo said:


> Shostakovich for his Piano Quintet
> Bach for Die Kunst der Fuge
> Beethoven for his Große Fuge


You mean you're not also gonna emphatically throw in what they shouldn't be known for?

You know, like this:

"Bach for Die Kunst der Fuge, NOT for the Well-Tempered Clavier, Goldberg Variations, Mass in B Minor, Brandenburg Concertos, or St. Matthew Passion"

Ok, joking aside. Yes, I think the _Große Fuge_ represents Beethoven at his highest, most inspired level. It still shocks listeners in the 21st century, including myself.


----------



## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

I think Schubert's _Impromptus_ and 2nd Piano Trio in E-flat Major (D.929) should be much better known. It also happens to be my favorite Piano Trio, sorry Beethoven! ;-) The melodies in the 1st Mvt are not of this world. :angel:


----------



## poconoron (Oct 26, 2011)

Mozart for Don Giovanni, Figaro, his piano concertos and symphonies 38-41 and not Eine Kleine Nachtmusic.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Schumann for his songs rather than his symphonies.

The song cycle Frauenliebe und leben is a fine example of Schumann at his greatest-deep and profound.

The guy really seems to have understood women.


----------



## MJongo (Aug 6, 2011)

DiesIraeVIX said:


> You mean you're not also gonna emphatically throw in what they shouldn't be known for?
> 
> You know, like this:
> 
> "Bach for Die Kunst der Fuge, NOT for the Well-Tempered Clavier, Goldberg Variations, Mass in B Minor, Brandenburg Concertos, or St. Matthew Passion"


Funny you mention that, because I hold the controversial opinion that Die Kunst der Fuge completely towers over the rest of Bach's output. I can't say the same about the works I named by Beethoven or Shostakovich though.


----------



## Stavrogin (Apr 20, 2014)

Schnittke for his Piano Quintet and his Viola Concerto rather than for his symphonies and concerti grossi.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Debussy for L'isle joyeuse, NOT the piano preludes.


----------



## Comistra (Feb 27, 2010)

Dvořák: I won't argue that the works he's best known for (e.g. Symphony 9, Cello Concerto) are not among his finest. However, I think his late symphonic poems (_The Water Goblin_, _The Noon Witch_, _The Golden Spinning Wheel_, _The Wild Dove_, and _A Hero's Song_) deserve much more recognition than they get.


----------



## Bridgetower (May 9, 2013)

Saint-Saen's symphony no. 2 is something I think should be praised as much as his third, though I'm not sure if it is already (I don't believe it is). Also, the Overture, Scherzo and Finale of Robert Schumann should be much more appreciated than it is, as I feel that it is one of his greatest works.


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

hpowders said:


> Debussy for L'isle joyeuse, NOT the piano preludes.


How many people do you think there are out there who only know Debussy for the piano preludes?


----------



## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

science said:


> How many people do you think there are out there who only know Debussy for the piano preludes?


Round where I live the only Debussy selection on most tavern jukeboxes is the second book of preludes, Jeux if yer lucky. Those rubes don't know what they're missin'!


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

dgee said:


> Round where I live the only Debussy selection on most tavern jukeboxes is the second book of preludes, Jeux if yer lucky. Those rubes don't know what they're missin'!


I don't know if I'm ever going to get used to your sense of humor.

A few years ago one of the newspaper concert reviewers... I feel it was in Chicago, but I don't know... said that, perhaps it was Jarrett, had "mailed in" his performance "from Mars." For some reason that line seems ever-fresh to me. I can go into giggle fits, like in the middle of a church service or alone on the bus somewhere or something, if I think about that line.

And I begin to suspect you wrote it!


----------



## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

science said:


> I don't know if I'm ever going to get used to your sense of humor.
> 
> A few years ago one of the newspaper concert reviewers... I feel it was in Chicago, but I don't know... said that, perhaps it was Jarrett, had "mailed in" his performance "from Mars." For some reason that line seems ever-fresh to me. I can go into giggle fits, like in the middle of a church service or alone on the bus somewhere or something, if I think about that line.
> 
> And I begin to suspect you wrote it!


I WISH! Just quietly, I may write that some day  Who was it that said geniuses steal?


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

dgee said:


> Who was it that said geniuses steal?


Me.

. .


----------



## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

hpowders said:


> Debussy for L'isle joyeuse, NOT the piano preludes.


L'isle joyeuse should be known as the pinnacle of Debussy's music, yes, but don't exactly agree he shouldn't be known for his piano preludes.


----------



## Harrytjuh (Apr 4, 2013)

Bartók is most famous for his Concerto for Orchestra, but I think Duke Bluebeard's Castle is his masterpiece. 

Mahler's 5th is the most know I think, especially the adagietto, but the 6th, 9th, Das Lied von der Erde and even his unfinished 10th are all better in my opinion.


----------



## Frei aber froh (Feb 22, 2013)

MJongo said:


> Shostakovich for his Piano Quintet
> Bach for Die Kunst der Fuge
> Beethoven for his Große Fuge


I wish I could like this ten times.

Mozart for the Sinfonia Concertante for violin and viola, not Eine Kleine Nachtmusik, Variations on "Ah Vous Dirai-je Maman", or most other stuff he's known for.


----------



## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

Ligeti for his _Violin Concerto_ rather than his _Atmospheres_ and _Lux Aeterna_.


----------



## PierreN (Aug 4, 2013)

Richard Strauss for his tone poem Also Sprach Zarathustra rather than just the first eight bars of his tone poem Also Sprach Zarathustra.


----------



## Pawelec (Jul 14, 2015)

poconoron said:


> Mozart for Don Giovanni, Figaro, his piano concertos and symphonies 38-41 and not Eine Kleine Nachtmusic.


Mozart should be known to masses for _Eine kleine Nachtmusik_ instead of Beethoven's 5th symphony, Toccata and Fugue in d minor or _La Traviata_... This thread seems a bit purposeless for me, telling what composers should be known for doesn't actually change anything because of how little people listen to classical nowadays.

But about Mozart: I agree, _Don Giovanni_ is better than _Magic Flute_, Piano Concerto in d minor beats _Eine kleine Nachtmusic_ and Coronation Mass beats... Beethoven's 5th symphony, I think.

I'm writing from Poland, where the government abandoned artistic education in secondary and high schools three years ago, narrowing it down to one hour a week for all the arts. I send the minister of education a warm hug for that. I hope it'll burn her skin.


----------



## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

Mozart should be more well known for his string quintets than his piano sonatas, but that's just my opinion


----------



## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Beethoven Missa Soleminis, yes. Dvorak all vocal works, all tone poems instead of the nice but ubiquitous 9th symphony. Liszt pretty much everything. Mendelssohn _Paulus_ instead of _Elias_ (which is a wonderful work, too!). Sibelius Lemminkäinen instead of just the Swan of Tuonela part. Berlioz Te Deum not instead of but as much as the Requiem. Haydn sacred music as much as the symphonies and string quartets.


----------



## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Vivaldi should be known more for his operas not just concertos.
Handel should be known more for his operas not just Messiah, instrumental music, other vocal works.
Hummel should be better known across all.
Michael Haydn should be better known across all.
Johann Christian Bach should be better known across all.


----------



## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

Cosmos said:


> Mozart should be more well known for his string quintets than his piano sonatas, but that's just my opinion


I thought he already was; but if not, I agree. But on the subject of his piano sonatas, Mozart should be known more for...

k.284 "Durnitz"
k.310
k.332 
k.333 "Linz"
K.457
K.533
K.576

And not for the other ones, which are nice, but overplayed and not as ambitious as these ones^.


----------



## KirbyH (Jun 30, 2015)

When I hear talk of Korngold, it's always about the Violin Concerto. Lovely as it is, I much prefer the Symphony and Sursum Corda - what a whiz bang twenty minutes that is. Also, tawdry as the plot of Das Wunder der Heliane is, it's a very beautiful work. I think the soundtracks are always worth mentioning as well - I heard the score for The Sea Hawk long before I saw the film.


----------



## echmain (Jan 18, 2013)

Mozart.....


----------



## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

ArtMusic said:


> Handel should be known more for his operas not just Messiah, instrumental music, other vocal works.
> .


I would say he is known for his operas. I would say his operas are the most famous baroque operas.


----------



## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

ArtMusic said:


> Vivaldi should be known more for his operas not just concertos.
> Handel should be known more for his operas not just Messiah, instrumental music, other vocal works.
> Hummel should be better known across all.
> Michael Haydn should be better known across all.
> Johann Christian Bach should be better known across all.


Hear, hear!

A fellow lover of J. C. Bach and Hummel?


----------



## techniquest (Aug 3, 2012)

Shchedrin is mostly known for his Carmen Ballet (after Bizet), but his ballet 'Anna Karanina' is far superior, and his first Concerto for Orchestra much more fun!


----------



## spradlig (Jul 25, 2012)

Brahms for his _Double Concerto_, second String Quintet, _Ein Deutsches Requiem_, cello sonatas, string sextets, and piano sonatas, rather than for almost everything else he composed. None of those works I listed are obscure, but they may be underrated.

Beethoven for his _Triple Concerto_, _Choral Fantasy_, and cello sonatas rather than his great but overly familiar symphonies and most popular three concertos.

Ravel for _Daphnis and Chloe _(the whole ballet), Sonata for Cello and Violin, and _Tzigane_, rather than the usual favorites.

Debussy for _Jeux _and the Etudes, rather than the usual suspects.

Tchaikovsky for his Second Piano Concerto, Souvenir de Florence, Grand (piano) Sonata in G, first string quartet (not just the slow movement), and perhaps other chamber music I'm unfamiliar with, instead of just...you know.

Shostakovich for his Second Cello Concerto, cello sonata, preludes and fugues, and moderately-popular symphonies (e.g. #9, #15), as opposed to his first violin and cello concertos and symphonies #5 and #10.

Mendelssohn for his symphonies #1 and #5, his two concertos for solo piano, his Octet for strings, cello sonatas and piano trios instead of symphonies #3 and #4, violin concerto, Hebrides overture, Midsummer Night's Dream music, yada, yada


----------



## doctorcdf (Jul 16, 2015)

Dora Pejacevic should just be more well known in general. If you need an excuse, her Canzonetta in D Major is a good starting point.


----------



## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

DiesIraeCX said:


> Beethoven's late period Cello Sonatas (especially No. 4, which like most of his late period works, has a heavy strain of weirdness). Also the Violin Sonatas (not named "Kreutzer" or "Spring") should be better known. No. 10 is more "pastoral" than the 6th symphony! It's some of the most beautiful music he ever wrote. I also love No. 7.


A very belated thank you (I only just found this thread). I thought I'd just about heard all the good Beethoven there was to hear over many years, but somehow I missed the Violin Sonata #10. The adagio is ethereal!


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Another far more minor piece of Beethoveniana: His "Eyeglass Duet" (or Duet for Viola and Cello with Two Eyeglasses Obbligato), evidently written for himself and his friend Zmeskall to play. Years ago I never connected "eyeglass" with "glasses" and thought it referred to a container where you put an artificial eye to soak when you took it out overnight! But it's just glasses, which Zmeskall, a keen cellist, needed badly to see anything at all, and Ludwig apparently needed also.

You can find it easily on YouTube. It's pretty good.


----------



## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

Shostakovich for the 4th symphony, Schnittke for his String Quartets, Stockhausen for his Licht cycle.


----------



## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

isorhythm said:


> Liszt should pretty much be known for all the things he isn't known for, and not known for all the things he is known for.


Liszt should be known for a lot more than he is, however I still think his more famous works are brilliant, especially the concert etudes, piano sonata and rhapsodies.


----------

