# Ideas for operas



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Do you constantly find yourself bombarded with ideas for wonderful operas?

I do. I spent weeks trying to make Cousin Bette into something resembling an opera. I mean, I know I have no musical talent, and I could spend years putting something together that no one would ever see or hear. But it was a compulsion. I don't know if you've read it but the opening scene is just smash-and-grab - nineteenth-century smash-and-grab, anyway! This guy has a rivalry going with a "friend" because this friend stole his courtesan - and so he visits the guy's wife to try to seduce her! In the course of the interview with her it becomes clear that her daughter and his son's marriage was arranged over the guys' parties with their courtesans, and in addition he's perfectly willing to spoil her son's marriage if she won't jump into bed with him. Well, it's an amazing scene.

I'm perennially visited by the idea of guerilla opera, too - subway opera, with musicians playing buskers, and actors pretending their personal lives are just spilling over into the public forum. You'd have to have pretty good actors to pull it off.

How about you? Any ideas?


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Impressed by your ideas, Greg. Off to read Cousine bette ( thank goodness for free e-books, makes access to french literature in NZ a lot easier and cheaper).

I'm afraid I have no ideas as I am about as creative as a woodlouse.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> Impressed by your ideas, Greg. Off to read Cousine bette ( thank goodness for free e-books, makes access to french literature in NZ a lot easier and cheaper).
> 
> I'm afraid I have no ideas as I am about as creative as a woodlouse.


lol i'm sure you'd do better than that! But I'm sure you'll love the book, it's great. It really sold me on Balzac until I realized that ALL his books start low and go straight downhill. The first - OK. After a few - gosh, you know, let's have a little escapism, please!


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## Dakota (Jun 30, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> Do you constantly find yourself bombarded with ideas for wonderful operas?


Not constantly, no, but I just recently read The Night Circus http://www.amazon.com/Night-Circus-Erin-Morgenstern/dp/0307744434/ with a friend. When we finished we were chatting about how long it would take before it appeared in film and I exclaimed, "But I want the opera version!!"

It would be beautiful, the idea of a black and white circus gets all kinds of visuals popping in my head. And the drama, the rivalry between the two magicians that threatens to destroy everything in its path (she says, wallowing joyously in cliches)..... will the young lovers realize that they are fated for each other? Once they have found each other, will they be able to stay together? And in what form can they stay together?? (well, ya kinda gotta read the book to understand that, lol.)

Lemme see....... a Bart Sher production, I think........ now I gotta get to work on casting........ :lol:


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

Well, I have secretly wanted to write an opera on the life of Stockhausen. Taking its cue from ghastly Hollywood biopics like _A song of Norway_ (about Grieg), it was to be called _Call me Karlheinz_, but I would now call it a _A little Light music_. Running continuously for around 24 hours, it would be a portrayal of KS's life from childhood to death, continually referring to, and obliquely quoting form, the music he was writing at each stage of his life. There would of course be many flashbacks, flashforwards and moments of simultaneous action in a structure which, while originally emulating _Momente_, say, would probably end up more like that of _Slaughterhouse 5_ (not entirely inapt, given the composer's teenage years).

There would be generous use of helicopters, of course - with the main characters singing their parts from inside the helicopters - thereby rendering it almost unperformable, whilst, by provocatively dwelling on KS's remarks about 9/11, any production would court the widest possible media opprobrium and hence publicity.

Not sure how I would represent the composer. In _Licht_, of course, each of the main characters is represented (at least in the early operas) by three people: a singer, a dancer and an instrumentalist. So I would probably have to have an equally unwieldy concept - maybe a live animal. Stockhausen was born under the sign of Leo so a real lion might do the trick. And there should be parts for KS's relatives from the planet orbiting Sirius from which he claimed to hail.

The music, which would be created entirely electronically, would not be performed in any production so much as streamed from cyberspace where it would be eternally present. Indeed this would permit the simultaneous performance of the work in many locations around the world (and on Sirius).


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

Just finished watching 'Groundhog Day' with Bill Murray: This script would suit very well for an opera... It's like _La Forza del Destino_ getting an American feelgood twist, that is not at all _déja vu_!


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

I think the saga of Michael Jackson would make a great opera with a juicy part for castrati and boy's choir.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

bigshot said:


> I think the saga of Michael Jackson would make a great opera with a juicy part for castrati and boy's choir.


Why am I creeped out by this?


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

How about Masquerade? And the revelation that the winner was a fraud would make a great ending.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Oh, I thought you meant this Maskerade, which would also work as it features Agnes Nitt the opera singer. My favourite quote from the novel: _"Inside every fat girl is a thin girl and a lot of chocolate"._


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Dakota said:


> Not constantly, no, but I just recently read The Night Circus http://www.amazon.com/Night-Circus-Erin-Morgenstern/dp/0307744434/ with a friend. When we finished we were chatting about how long it would take before it appeared in film and I exclaimed, "But I want the opera version!!"


That's what I'm talking about. I looked at it on Amazon and it looks like an interesting book. But once you're hooked on opera nothing else will do!


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Jeremy Marchant said:


> Well, I have secretly wanted to write an opera on the life of Stockhausen. Taking its cue from ghastly Hollywood biopics like _A song of Norway_ (about Grieg), it was to be called _Call me Karlheinz_, but I would now call it a _A little Light music_. Running continuously for around 24 hours, it would be a portrayal of KS's life from childhood to death, continually referring to, and obliquely quoting form, the music he was writing at each stage of his life. There would of course be many flashbacks, flashforwards and moments of simultaneous action in a structure which, while originally emulating _Momente_, say, would probably end up more like that of _Slaughterhouse 5_ (not entirely inapt, given the composer's teenage years).
> 
> There would be generous use of helicopters, of course - with the main characters singing their parts from inside the helicopters - thereby rendering it almost unperformable, whilst, by provocatively dwelling on KS's remarks about 9/11, any production would court the widest possible media opprobrium and hence publicity.
> 
> ...


Too FUNNY!! omg. Yes, your life now has meaning - you must write this opera!

If writing is the word.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

TxllxT said:


> Just finished watching 'Groundhog Day' with Bill Murray: This script would suit very well for an opera... It's like _La Forza del Destino_ getting an American feelgood twist, that is not at all _déja vu_!


Hmm - don't quite see it, myself. Actually, getting Forza del Destino and Groundhog Day both in my head at once has so far been impossible. Ah well, if you write it, I'll watch it.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

sospiro said:


> How about Masquerade? And the revelation that the winner was a fraud would make a great ending.


Woah - not a bad idea! But an opera treasure hunt in which the clues are embedded in the libretto and the production? Wow. Of course, it wouldn't have to be a fraud. But we could do it that way, just to uphold tradition ...

Strikes me that the guy's idea, Kit Williams I mean, was screwy from the get-go. Studying a painting for the clue to a treasure hunt is not the WAY most artists want their work studied, I think. Would attendance go up, at productions of it? lol be an interesting test to try.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

What about Kafka's The Metamorphosis? _As Gregor Samsa awoke one morning from uneasy dreams he found himself transformed in his bed into a gigantic insect-like creature._ BANG! Right in the beginning! It would be darker than the book (is that possible?)

Once, long time ago, when i read Gabriel Garcia Marquez's One Hundread Years of Solitude, i loved reading it so much, that i thought how this would go as an opera. Two minutes later i thought it would be impossible due to the amount of characters needed. If one needs a notebook to follow the Ring, imagine what do you need for the Buendia family.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

dionisio said:


> What about Kafka's The Metamorphosis?


omg YES. Only with real music. That's all I ask.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

I think a Supernatural-based opera would also be interesting. It could resemble the romantic gothic stuff a bit but also be modern with demons, hunters and angels. And UST all over the place.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Sieglinde said:


> I think a Supernatural-based opera would also be interesting. It could resemble the romantic gothic stuff a bit but also be modern with demons, hunters and angels. And UST all over the place.


YEAH! Laurell K Hamilton. Anita Blake with a vampire in the basement and a werewolf in the doghouse ... trying to decide whether or not to raise Tito Gobbi as a zombie just to make him sing!

btw, what's UST?


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

guythegreg said:


> omg YES. Only with real music. That's all I ask.


What's real music? Is there fake music? If so, do you need special training to notice the differences?


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Crudblud said:


> What's real music? Is there fake music? If so, do you need special training to notice the differences?


Yes. :lol:


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

guythegreg said:


> omg YES. Only with real music. That's all I ask.


It's been done, by the young Italian composer Silvia Colasanti:

http://www.opera-britannia.com/inde...25th-may-2012&catid=8:opera-reviews&Itemid=16


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

MAuer said:


> It's been done, by the young Italian composer Silvia Colasanti:
> 
> http://www.opera-britannia.com/inde...25th-may-2012&catid=8:opera-reviews&Itemid=16


wouldn't you know it ... hope it was good!


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## sunandshadow (Sep 21, 2012)

Hope this isn't considered necroposting. I joined this forum specifically because I recently had an idea for writing an opera, and wanted to chat with other people interested in writing librettos or composing operas. I'm a bit puzzled at the emphasis here on adapting existing ideas for opera. I guess historically a lot of operas have been adaptations. But I'm a writer by training, they smack us on the nose with a newspaper if we try to write "fanfiction". Any more, I've got so many ideas of my own that I'd consider it a criminal waste of time and energy to make an opera based on someone else's material! 

The idea I had that got me out here joining opera forums is for a risque comic historical opera somewhat like L'elisir D'amour. The central concept is, two soldiers are retiring with a nest-egg of money, and one wants to use the money to start a brothel while the other wants to use it to get gloriously drunk and stay that way as long as possible.

I'm rather hung up on the issue of whether it's really opera if it's written in English, though. I only speak English, so I really have no business writing in another language, but lyrics written in English seem to be judged by a completely different, harsher, set of standards...


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## Moira (Apr 1, 2012)

The story of Nelson Mandela would make a marvellous opera.

Young activist with beautiful wife tried and imprisoned. She gains her own political following during the years he is in prison. Their loneliness for each other. His release, their inability to live together despite her faithfulness for 27 years. Their parting.


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## techniquest (Aug 3, 2012)

Nice topic:
I think operas from 'The Hunchback of Notre Dame'; 'Lord of the Flies' and Ridley Scott's 'Alien' would be interesting.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

The more i think about having one day wisedom enough to write an opera i go and hear Wagner to know that anything i'll ever do will be below him.

Therefore...it is better for Mankind not to compose operas on my own.

Nevertheless, apart from Kafka's novel, i'm keen on a subject about the horrors of World War I or II


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

techniquest said:


> Nice topic:
> I think operas from 'The Hunchback of Notre Dame'; 'Lord of the Flies' and Ridley Scott's 'Alien' would be interesting.


And about from movies to operas, some movies are quite operatic (or even operas) by themselves. Almost every one of Kubrik's, The Godfather, Ben-Hur, Lawrence, etc.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

People should make libretti out of Henry James' novels; I believe they might work very well, with the right approach and music. There's a lot of feelings in between the lines, all the most important things are never uttered - and what vechile to convey this better than music? There's very little action, but a whole lot of psychology and irony - to be communicated by music. Operas don't need that much action anyway, just look at, uh, any opera by Wagner.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Xaltotun said:


> People should make libretti out of Henry James' novels; I believe they might work very well, with the right approach and music. There's a lot of feelings in between the lines, all the most important things are never uttered - and what vechile to convey this better than music? There's very little action, but a whole lot of psychology and irony - to be communicated by music. Operas don't need that much action anyway, just look at, uh, any opera by Wagner.


You mean like this one:


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

A couple opera concepts based on Loveboat and Roman Holiday......

Loveboat would be romantic adult comedy with assumed indentities, unfaithful lovers, cabin room romps and crew that joins in the fun, think Rossini/Mozart Figaro series

Roman Holiday almost perfect, young princess who longs to be normal carefree girl and have fun falls in love under assumed identity and returns to royal court for happy ending.....

Almost any great Audrey Hepburn movie could be great opera :angel:
-Sabrina
-Funny Face
-Breakfast at Tiffanies
-My Fair Lady


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

sunandshadow said:


> Hope this isn't considered necroposting.


No, no, feel free ... great term though! Necroposting, I love it.



> I joined this forum specifically because I recently had an idea for writing an opera, and wanted to chat with other people interested in writing librettos or composing operas. I'm a bit puzzled at the emphasis here on adapting existing ideas for opera.


Well, I have no creativity, so I would HAVE to adapt an existing idea.



> The idea I had that got me out here joining opera forums is for a risque comic historical opera somewhat like L'elisir D'amour. The central concept is, two soldiers are retiring with a nest-egg of money, and one wants to use the money to start a brothel while the other wants to use it to get gloriously drunk and stay that way as long as possible.
> 
> I'm rather hung up on the issue of whether it's really opera if it's written in English, though. I only speak English, so I really have no business writing in another language, but lyrics written in English seem to be judged by a completely different, harsher, set of standards...


I know I'm going to get jumped on by everyone for saying this, so I'll just apologize in advance. SORRY, SORRY SORRY!!! (whispering now) English strikes me as not a very beautiful language. If I was going to write an opera I would write it in English only because it's the only language I know, and then get it translated into Italian for the libretto.

You know, I love the concept, the two soldiers with the pot of money and what to do with it. You probably already see it needs more plot to make an opera of it. If there's anything we can do to help, I'm sure we will ... ?? it doesn't sound to me like you're wanting ideas, you probably have plenty of your own.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Moira said:


> The story of Nelson Mandela would make a marvellous opera.
> 
> Young activist with beautiful wife tried and imprisoned. She gains her own political following during the years he is in prison. Their loneliness for each other. His release, their inability to live together despite her faithfulness for 27 years. Their parting.


Gosh, you're right - it'd be GREAT!


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

techniquest said:


> Nice topic:
> I think operas from 'The Hunchback of Notre Dame'; 'Lord of the Flies' and Ridley Scott's 'Alien' would be interesting.


Actually, I've been wondering why we don't have any science fiction operas. Those are all great ideas though.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

sunandshadow said:


> I'm rather hung up on the issue of whether it's really opera if it's written in English, though. I only speak English, so I really have no business writing in another language, but lyrics written in English seem to be judged by a completely different, harsher, set of standards...


There are many, many operas written in English, a number of them by Handel and Britten, as well as a variety by late 20th century/early 21st century composers. And the original libretto to Weber's _Oberon_ is in English, not German.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

dionisio said:


> The more i think about having one day wisedom enough to write an opera i go and hear Wagner to know that anything i'll ever do will be below him.
> 
> Therefore...it is better for Mankind not to compose operas on my own.
> 
> Nevertheless, apart from Kafka's novel, i'm keen on a subject about the horrors of World War I or II


Wrong idea. It's like running from bears: you don't have to be better than Wagner, you only have to be better than Puccini. Still a tough job ahead, but it's doable.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

dionisio said:


> And about from movies to operas, some movies are quite operatic (or even operas) by themselves. Almost every one of Kubrik's, The Godfather, Ben-Hur, Lawrence, etc.


Woah - a Clockwork Orange opera! There's a stunner.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

DarkAngel said:


> A couple opera concepts based on Loveboat and Roman Holiday......
> 
> Loveboat would be romantic adult comedy with assumed indentities, unfaithful lovers, cabin room romps and crew that joins in the fun, think Rossini/Mozart Figaro series
> 
> ...


Out of my depth here, never seen any of these. Well, I saw My Fair Lady. That'd be good.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

guythegreg said:


> I know I'm going to get jumped on by everyone for saying this, so I'll just apologize in advance. SORRY, SORRY SORRY!!! (whispering now) English strikes me as not a very beautiful language. If I was going to write an opera I would write it in English only because it's the only language I know, and then get it translated into Italian for the libretto.


A common explanation of why English doesn't sounds good when sung is that we have a lot of vowel sounds, including nine diphthongs (like the sounds in toes, tourist, fine, here, hair etc), which simply don't sound so attractive in song as the pure monophthongs of Italian.

I think there is also another aggravating factor.

English is a strongly stress-timed language - in spoken English the important content words are stressed - ie spoken louder, longer and higher in pitch than the unstressed grammar/helping words , and what's more the stressed words are spoken at a roughly equal distance from each other, with the unstressed words squeezed in between.

Looks a bit like this










What's more most of the vowels in unstressed English words are reduced, often to a very neutral sound called the schwa (the sound you hear in banana).

Italian and French in contrast are syllable-timed, whereby each syllable is given more or less equal "speaking time", and all vowels retain their full form. Looks a bit like this:










This has two disadvantages to opera composers and singers:

1. The rhythms that you can use in English are therefore more restricted; alternatively you may have to turn sentences around to fit a pre-set rhythm, which is in itself difficult because English has a relatively fixed word order. I reckon it must be harder to write an arching melody with a long legato line in English than in Italian because of these rhythmic restrictions.

2. Also, and possibly more importantly, when English is sung operatically, more importance is given than would normally be to the unstressed grammar words, which are sung giving their vowels their full value, so that sung English can sound rather unnatural and stilted.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

One must really know the language pretty well and be well-experienced in writting in verses that can be sung, whether it is english or italian.

Not all poetry, not all drammas for theater work as librettos.

Nevertheless, accents can have a major influence in turning the language "sungable". For example, it's easier to sing in Portuguese with brazilian accent rather than with european one.


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## sunandshadow (Sep 21, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> Well, I have no creativity, so I would HAVE to adapt an existing idea.


Isn't creativity required for adapting an idea? I mean if you start with a story that doesn't have any songs, I'd consider it a creative activity to find seeds within the material which could develop into good songs. I don't think that's different than starting with my daily experience and looking for seeds that could develop into good stories. But idk, I'm more creative than has ever been good for me, lol, can't quite imagine what it would be like on the other end of the spectrum. What would I think about all day if I wasn't daydreaming about characters, stories, plots, future publications or performances, etc.? I have no idea.



> I know I'm going to get jumped on by everyone for saying this, so I'll just apologize in advance. SORRY, SORRY SORRY!!! (whispering now) English strikes me as not a very beautiful language. If I was going to write an opera I would write it in English only because it's the only language I know, and then get it translated into Italian for the libretto.


 Thank you for weighing in. I'm sort of taking a survey of everyone's opinions on this at the moment. Fortunately I don't have to actually decide until I'm done writing the libretto, I guess.



> You know, I love the concept, the two soldiers with the pot of money and what to do with it. You probably already see it needs more plot to make an opera of it. If there's anything we can do to help, I'm sure we will ... ?? it doesn't sound to me like you're wanting ideas, you probably have plenty of your own.


I'm glad you like it. ^_^ Yes, I know it needs more plot. Of all the skills required to create an opera, plotting a story is the one I have the most experience with, so it's the one I'm worried least about. I'm mainly looking at activities that would go into starting up a brothel for plot events. For example, talking to some kind of public official to get some kind of license seems like it could provide a lot of comedy. They probably need to buy or rent a building for the brothel, then redecorate it, that could be fraught with all sort of comical challenges. And this will be a brothel which has a bar in the ground floor, which requires buying alcohol to stock it; bound to be an adventure when one of the two people involved is a big fan of alcohol. And of course interviewing women to work at the brothel. And perhaps there should be a strict, nosy woman running the boarding house where the two men are staying while they get situated. But I'm always happy to hear more ideas, it's impossible to have too much grist for the mill.  Especially right now I am trying to brainstorm the female roles; female characters never come to me quite as naturally as male ones.


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## sunandshadow (Sep 21, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> A common explanation of why English doesn't sounds good when sung is that we have a lot of vowel sounds, including nine diphthongs (like the sounds in toes, tourist, fine, here, hair etc), which simply don't sound so attractive in song as the pure monophthongs of Italian.
> 
> I think there is also another aggravating factor.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for the explanations and illustrations! ^_^ I'm a bit puzzled by the idea that dipthongs don't sound attractive - I'll have to go listen to some English singing and see if it sounds that way to me. I know some things, like words starting with 'p', do tend to sound terrible when sung even though they are fine when spoken. The problem with syllables and timing or rearranged grammar sounding unnatural is something I'm familiar with, and I got some experience working around that when I was first learning to write poetry and song lyrics.

I do like many examples of English song lyrics, from Gilbert and Sullivan and Phantom of the Opera to modern rock and metal, but that's probably to be expected of anyone who only speaks English. So I think I could write relatively a attractive-sounding English libretto. I was more thinking in terms that the audience expectations for an English-language performance would be quite different than those for a non-English performance, at least here in the US where I am. I feel like I can compete with and improve on something like L'Elisir D'Amour while staying true to its spirit. A lot of classic operas are a bit weak in the plot department, which might be a side-effect that they are often adaptations from a larger original, and the cut-down version may not explain itself as fully as possible. I have the advantage of some 200 years of writing theory and education that occurred since some of the older operas were written. And I can ignore the challenge of competing with their music as "not my department". But I don't think I could do better than something like A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Forum on it's home turf as an English-language musical. And I was worried that modern English operas really do get viewed as being basically musicals and in competition with all sorts of brilliant English musicals that have been written in the past century.

Just like guythegreg says here:


guythegreg said:


> Wrong idea. It's like running from bears: you don't have to be better than Wagner, you only have to be better than Puccini. Still a tough job ahead, but it's doable.


 I can be better than Donizetti, I can probably equal Gilbert and Sullivan, but I'm intimidated by the idea that I would be expected to be as good as Andrew Lloyd Weber.


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## drpraetorus (Aug 9, 2012)

English is the perfect language for an opera by a speaker of english. Part of the music of opera is the language. Each language has it's strengths and weaknesses as far as singing is concerned. A native speaker would know those intimately and without having to think about it. You speak english, you know the rythm of the language, the cadences and stresses of it's words. Write whatb you know. 

I like the two soldiers idea.

Don't worry if someone has already written an opera on a story you want to use. How many Romeo and Juliets are out there? If it's good, there's always room for more. 

I'm trying to cobble together a libretto based on Frankenstein, staying as close to the original as possible and forgetting the miserable Brannagha movie. There are many themes in the story. I want to focus on topics such as the relations and obligations of creator to created, the metaphysics of the creatures position i.e. is he human, is he really alive in otherwords did Frankenstein imbue him with a soul? Who is ultimately responsible for the creatures murders and violence? 

There are also themes and stories from American history that could provide excelent librettos. Although he is now seen as something of an unapproachable marble statue, George Washington would make an excelent subject for one or several operas. Crazy Horse, Tecumseh, Massasoit and the Pilgrims. Unfortunately, Pocahontas has probably been ruined by Disney for the forseeable future. 

An opera about Stephen Foster. you have music already written.

John Brown. Dred Scott. 

Joseph Smith, John C. Fremont also good subjects. Jefferson and the break with Adams and the reconciliation in their later lives. Lincoln, of course.

How about a Lovecraft opera?

A Twilight Zone opera?

So many subjects, so little time.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

sunandshadow said:


> And I was worried that modern English operas really do get viewed as being basically musicals and in competition with all sorts of brilliant English musicals that have been written in the past century.


I am familiar with several English operas written this century which could definitely never be confused with musicals (although it must be admitted that they are not comic either) - for example Birtwistle's The Minotaur, Turnage's Anna Nicole and Benjamin's Wirtten on Skin.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> I am familiar with several English operas written this century which could definitely never be confused with musicals (although it must be admitted that they are not comic either) - for example Birtwistle's The Minotaur, Turnage's Anna Nicole and Benjamin's Wirtten on Skin.


Well, the first act of Anna Nicole is rather comic. In the 'This is really very horribly tragic, but there is no denying the comedy in this situation' sense of the word.
Also, the opening chorus is rather funny.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Aksel said:


> Well, the first act of Anna Nicole is rather comic. In the 'This is really very horribly tragic, but there is no denying the comedy in this situation' sense of the word.
> Also, the opening chorus is rather funny.


Yes it is comic, but it's not a comic Rossini type opera of the sort _sunandshadow _is discussing.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Franz Schmidt (1874- 1935) wrote the opera Notre Dame ,based on Hugo's Hunchback of Notre Dame, and it is a wonderful opera which deserves to be better known. It was recently given a concert performance in New York with Leon Botstein, that tireless champion of offbeat operas and orchestral works, with his American symphony orchestra.
I have the excelent Capriccio recording with Kurt Masur as the hunchack, and Gwyneth Jones as Esmeralda, also with James King, and Christof Perick and the Berlin Radio symphony .
I would like to see an opera based on the famous film "Inherit the Wind" , based on the notorious
"monkey trial" in Tennessee in the 1920s. Possibly with John Adams as the composer or William Bolcom .
Also, an opera about Genghis Khan by Philip Glass sung in Mongolian, posaibly with parts also in a Turkic language might be interesting .


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> A common explanation of why English doesn't sounds good when sung is that we have a lot of vowel sounds, including nine diphthongs (like the sounds in toes, tourist, fine, here, hair etc), which simply don't sound so attractive in song as the pure monophthongs of Italian.
> 
> I think there is also another aggravating factor.
> 
> ...


Wow, you've given it some thought! Well, I feel certain you've heard MANY more operas than I have too, so you've had time. Well, it all makes sense to me.

It does happen sometimes, though, that I'll think a particular language just isn't right for opera; then later I'll hear an opera that works in that language and realize: it was just the librettist that wasn't right.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

dionisio said:


> One must really know the language pretty well and be well-experienced in writting in verses that can be sung, whether it is english or italian.
> 
> Not all poetry, not all drammas for theater work as librettos.
> 
> Nevertheless, accents can have a major influence in turning the language "sungable". For example, it's easier to sing in Portuguese with brazilian accent rather than with european one.


That's very interesting. What operas do you love in Portuguese? Are there any?


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## techniquest (Aug 3, 2012)

> Franz Schmidt (1874- 1935) wrote the opera Notre Dame ,based on Hugo's Hunchback of Notre Dame, and it is a wonderful opera which deserves to be better known. It was recently given a concert performance in New York with Leon Botstein, that tireless champion of offbeat operas and orchestral works, with his American symphony orchestra.
> I have the excelent Capriccio recording with Kurt Masur as the hunchack, and Gwyneth Jones as Esmeralda, also with James King, and Christof Perick and the Berlin Radio symphony .


That's one of the things I really like about this forum - learning something new! Now I will have to search out that recording 
Thinking about books and films that would make good operas got me to wondering about the virtues of making films _of_ operas. Not just filming stage productions, of which there are many, but making a proper movie of an opera. I know that a movie was made of Brittens' 'Turn of the Screw' back in the 70's or 80's, but can you imagine how good a big Peter Jackson production of 'The Ring' would be? Or a Merchant/Ivory-style 'Madama Butterfly'? Or Kenneth Branagh doing Verdi?
Or we could go the whole hog and have James Cameron re-doing 'Titanic'; as long as it has a better libretto than it had script!


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Both Kenneth Branagh and Ingmar Bergman made film versions of Mozart's _Magic Flute_.






And there was that 1950s _Aida_ with Renata Tebaldi providing the voice for Sophia Loren's Ethiopian princess. I also think the films of _Tosca_, _Madama Butterfly_, and _La Traviata _with Domingo were all actual movies, not just film versions of stage productions. Siegfried Jerusalem made his big career breakthrough as Sandor Barinkay in a made-for-TV film of _Der Zigeunerbaron _back around 1976 ot 1977.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

MAuer said:


> And there was that 1950s _Aida_ with Renata Tebaldi providing the voice for Sophia Loren's Ethiopian princess.


Yes I've seen that. Having such a famous actress play the part may have helped the box office but I found it distracting, knowing she was miming.



MAuer said:


> I also think the films of _Tosca_, _Madama Butterfly_, and _La Traviata _with Domingo were all actual movies, not just film versions of stage productions. Siegfried Jerusalem made his big career breakthrough as Sandor Barinkay in a made-for-TV film of _Der Zigeunerbaron _back around 1976 ot 1977.


I know Butterfly is as I've got that.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

As well as the excellent fairly recent film of The turn of the Screw, which would stand on its own two feet as a film without the music, there is also a good movie of Owen Wingrave, an opera that was written to be filmed as opposed to being staged:


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> That's very interesting. What operas do you love in Portuguese? Are there any?


Hhehehehe Although Portuguese is my language, i don't know many however there's none i'd say it would be on my top list.

The opera which i know better (not sure if one could call opera) is Buarque's Opera do malandro. But Buarque is one of my favourite musicians, so my opinion is constrained. This one is from Brazil.

I've seen a couple of Portuguese operas (specially revivals from the baroque/classic era), a long time ago. But i guess there isn't yet any recording of them.

Keil's D. Branca is the most popular Portuguese (in Portugal) i barely know (but i've never seen it live). Also there were some portuguese operettas from 20th century which i've heard in special broadcast recordings.

But the big problem is that in Portugal, opera is ignored and portuguese opera very rare. Brazil has had some good opera, specially from Villa-Lobos, but of his i only know some pieces here and there.

However, for anyone who likes classicism i advise Marcos Portugal. His was the most famous portuguese composer. There has been some revivals. I've seen some but i know his Mass better.

Like i said, i barely know anything. And the rest i only know about what i read. Sorry


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

The 19th century Barazilian composer Antonio Carlos Gomes wrote a number of once popular operas, but in Italian, because he settled in Italy . I have the Sony Classical recording of his rather entertaining opera 
Il Guarany, about the Portuguese in Brazil and their conflict with the Guarani Indians , with Placido Domingo in the title role . It was revived by the Bonn opera several years ago and recorded live . 
The music shows strong Verdian influence, which is not surprising .


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## techniquest (Aug 3, 2012)

> As well as the excellent fairly recent film of The turn of the Screw, which would stand on its own two feet as a film without the music, there is also a good movie of Owen Wingrave, an opera that was written to be filmed as opposed to being staged:


Aarrgh! More shopping I have to do! Thanks guys


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

superhorn said:


> The 19th century Barazilian composer Antonio Carlos Gomes wrote a number of once popular operas, but in Italian, because he settled in Italy . I have the Sony Classical recording of his rather entertaining opera
> Il Guarany, about the Portuguese in Brazil and their conflict with the Guarani Indians , with Placido Domingo in the title role . It was revived by the Bonn opera several years ago and recorded live .
> The music shows strong Verdian influence, which is not surprising .


Yes but like you said, he wrote in Italian. Marcos Portugal also wrote lots of operas (even with premieres in Scala) but in italian also.

I mentioned those which were written in portuguese language. They are rarely staged and few recordings exist. Also normally portuguese-speaking composers are more keen on writing other genres than just opera and those are far more popular like Villa-Lobos (i listen a lot to his guitar compositions).

Recent Portugal composers have been writing avant-garde operas like Emanuel Nunes (recently deceased) or António Pinho Vargas. Honestly their operas like Das Märchen are too much for my stomach and for most portuguese audience. At its premiere the opera began with a full house but it ended with 2 or 3 resistant people. hehhehehe

When you mentioned Carlos Gomes and about the libretto with portuguese subject, there are quite some operas based on portuguese events like Meyerbeer's Vasco da Gama or Donizetti's Dom Sebastien. But i think it was the love story of Ines de Castro which more operas were written about. If anyone can find recordings of this last subject, please tell me where to find it.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

dionisio said:


> Hhehehehe Although Portuguese is my language, i don't know many however there's none i'd say it would be on my top list.
> 
> The opera which i know better (not sure if one could call opera) is Buarque's Opera do malandro. But Buarque is one of my favourite musicians, so my opinion is constrained. This one is from Brazil.
> 
> ...


I'll have to look for that music. It sounds interesting. As in America, the biggest problem in the Portuguese countries probably is getting popular composers interested in long-form communication. It isn't really so much that the people aren't opera fans; it's that the composers aren't opera fans. I'm sure if one were to write an opera she or he would drag a lot of people into it.


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

I always though the Picture of Dorian Gray would make a good opera, if done right.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

Jobis said:


> I always though the Picture of Dorian Gray would make a good opera, if done right.


Nice sugestion 

However it would lack a female character, wouldn't?


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

dionisio said:


> Nice sugestion
> 
> However it would lack a female character, wouldn't?


Sibyl Vane, the ingenue and Dorian's love interest in the first part.

The best bit is that she is a singer and an actress in the novel. Plus her overbearing mother would be a great comic relief.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

Jobis said:


> Sibyl Vane, the ingenue and Dorian's love interest in the first part.
> 
> The best bit is that she is a singer and an actress in the novel. Plus her overbearing mother would be a great comic relief.


It could be. But as she is a minor character in the book, i didn't think much of her. The main subject is basically centered in the three friends. Nevertheless, it would be very interesting. I very fond of Wilde.

BTW, i think a love story like Sid Vicious and Nancy or Johnny Cash and June Carter could be written in a libretto form. What do you people think?


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

I'm trying to think of a way to get Anna Karenina into libretto form, myself ... I think it would take about 11 operas but I bet it could be done ... there was a movie about Sid and Nancy and it was awfully good, I'd be surprised if it wouldn't work as an opera ... well, seeing how good Dialogues of the Caramelites was, I almost expect anything to work as opera now.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> I'm trying to think of a way to get Anna Karenina into libretto form, myself ... I think it would take about 11 operas but I bet it could be done ... there was a movie about Sid and Nancy and it was awfully good, I'd be surprised if it wouldn't work as an opera ... well, seeing how good Dialogues of the Caramelites was, I almost expect anything to work as opera now.


Exactly, guythegreg. It would be a simple love story with a decadence in it. It could be expanded to a metaphorical interpretation of the world in 1970's but i'd rather stay with the simple story. I think it would be very verdinia! And the performance of Gary Oldman is great in the movie.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

dionisio said:


> It could be. But as she is a minor character in the book, i didn't think much of her. The main subject is basically centered in the three friends. Nevertheless, it would be very interesting. I very fond of Wilde.


yes, but you can always take liberties with the text - make her a more important character, cut something else.

same with Anna Karenina - I doubt we need an entire act where they discuss agriculture  it could just be focused on the main love story and it tragic implications.

I was thinking about an Assassin's Creed opera  - or a series of operas, each written in the style of its time period with the contemporary prologues/flashes in contemporary idiom.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

deggial said:


> yes, but you can always take liberties with the text - make her a more important character, cut something else.
> 
> same with Anna Karenina - I doubt we need an entire act where they discuss agriculture  it could just be focused on the main love story and it tragic implications.
> 
> I was thinking about an Assassin's Creed opera  - or a series of operas, each written in the style of its time period with the contemporary prologues/flashes in contemporary idiom.


Assassin's Creed and opera. Too cool. :lol:


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

^ Leaping, sword swinging Christophe Dumaux is the ideal man for the title role.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

guythegreg said:


> I'm trying to think of a way to get Anna Karenina into libretto form, myself ... I think it would take about 11 operas but I bet it could be done ... there was a movie about Sid and Nancy and it was awfully good, I'd be surprised if it wouldn't work as an opera ... well, seeing how good Dialogues of the Caramelites was, I almost expect anything to work as opera now.


Apparently, several people have tried. According to Wikipedia, there are 10 operas based on the novel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptations_of_Anna_Karenina

I thought I'd remembered one operatic version of _Anna Karenina_, but didn't realize there had been so many.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Wow ... TEN attempts. But you know, you shouldn't try to make AN opera out of it - you'll miss all the flavor and goodness of Tolstoy's text. You've got to make it an opera cycle, like the Ring only big. Ger.


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

guythegreg said:


> Wow ... TEN attempts. But you know, you shouldn't try to make AN opera out of it - you'll miss all the flavor and goodness of Tolstoy's text. You've got to make it an opera cycle, like the Ring only big. Ger.


This might sound a bit blasphemous, but I think opera is a limited art form, and not just anything can work as one. I'm not convinced works like anna karenina could really be made into an opera because there is so much subtlety and depth that cannot always be conveyed in music.

Ideal works to base an opera on should be very dramatic (perhaps even a little melodramatic) and have a distinct tone. Great novels like Anna Karenina encompass far too many aspects of life to have one persistent tone/atmosphere.

Another thing I'd say is that the written word can hold much more ambiguity than music. For example, a lot of composers use the tritone to subtly give a feeling of unease, but with a little knowledge of theory such devices do not appear subtle at all.


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

Also it just struck me that I would watch the ****** out of a Lolita opera.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

Jobis said:


> Also it just struck me that I would watch the ****** out of a Lolita opera.


This:


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

I've never read that. Guess I should, huh ...


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

tyroneslothrop said:


> This:


Meh, that video didn't interest or excite me nearly enough as it should have.

besides why limit it to one adaptation? There have been plenty of films about it, with individual strengths and weaknesses.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

For many years now I've thought *The English Patient* provides a perfect basis for an opera, it already feels like an opera. Illicit and doomed love, tragedy, drama and intrigue. A compelling eponymous hero, two great female roles. It also has many episodes that could be picked from (whilst some could easily be ignored.)

*Atonement* is the other one that springs to my mind, similarly operatic in content already.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

I would like to adapt a vampire's novel: "Fevre Dream" by George R. R. Martin, of "Game of Thrones" fame.

I think this would require a rather traditional narrative, and would go with music by Laurent Petitgirard or Jonathan Dove. The cast for the premiere:



Captain Abner Marsh: Matti Salminen 
Joshua York: Jonas Kaufmann
Damon Julian: Rodney Gilfry 
Valerie: Danielle de Niese 
'Sour' Billy: René Pape 
'Hairy' Mike Dunn: Bryn Terfel


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## PrimoUomo (Jul 7, 2013)

I had always want to compose an opera about a not-so-intelligent greek "hero" named Portreus, and i think that Carlo Lepore's voice and his sublime acting will suit that role perfectly.

I would like the complete cast to be, and is mainly baroque singers (Only two chacraters has a name so far.):

Portreus, the not-so-intelligent greek "hero": Carlo Lepore

His companion: Juan Diego Florez (His heroic bel canto sound will be interesting in contrast to the others.)

A greek king: Dominique Visse

His queen: Marina de Liso

Their son: Philippe Jaroussky

A Nymph: Julie Comparini

Three priests for Apollo: Paul Agnew, Peter Harvey and Antonio Abete

Apollo: Angelo Manzotti (His singing is awful in my opinion, but it will be comic.)


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

PrimoUomo said:


> Apollo: Angelo Manzotti (His singing is awful in my opinion, but it will be comic.)


I like this angle :lol:

and we do need more baroque operas.

to illustrate your point above, check out 4:26  :


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## PrimoUomo (Jul 7, 2013)

There is always need for a little bit baroque.


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## PrimoUomo (Jul 7, 2013)

He will be the perfect Apollo! And a real "Primo Uomo".


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## Notung (Jun 12, 2013)

Kingdom of Heaven. Cut out Orlando Bloom and replace him with Roberto Alagna. Lavish costumes. Massive army choruses marching across stage. Loud, in your ear arias. Melodramatic duets. And, of course, a ballet(or two).

Give Ridley Scott a run for his money


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

deggial said:


> I like this angle :lol:
> 
> and we do need more baroque operas.
> 
> ...


Deggial, that's among my favorite arias of Vivaldi's. Bartoli does a fantastic rendition, and I much prefer hers to this dude's.


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

The Classics:
The Iliad (Homer)
The Odyssey
The Divine Comedy (Dante)
Metamorphoses (Ovid)
Romance of the Three Kingdoms (Guanzhong)
Any Hans Christian Anderson story

Pop stories:
The Exorcist
Twenty Thousand Leagues under the Sea
Lord of the Rings (people will compare it to Wagner's cycle)

Finally, a biographical opera on Beethoven's life.


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## PrimoUomo (Jul 7, 2013)

Here is my complete role list of the Portreus opera:

POTREUS
a heroic-comic drama in 5 acts

-THE NOT-SO-SERIOUS PROLOGUE -

Homer, a poet – Bass
His Assistant - Tenor

-THE HEROIC-COMIC-DRAMATIC MAINPLOT - 

THE PATHETIC MORTALS:

Portreus, a not-so-intelligent Greek half-god – Baritone
Adrastos, his companion – Tenor
Nestor, a Greek king – Alto
Aoide, his queen – Alto
Clio, their son – Soprano 
A peasant - Tenor
A nymph – Alto 
Three priests for Apollo – Tenor, Baritone, Bass

THE GLORIOUS GODS:

Ares, the god of war, father of Portreus – Tenor
Apollon, the god of music, poetry, light etc. – Soprano
Artemis, the goddess of hunt – Soprano
Zeus, the “deus ex machina” in this opera - Bass


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Wow - you've given this some thought! Have you a plot?


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

I wrote an opera based on Frankenstein for my graduate thesis. It was based on the part where the monster observes a cottage in the woods. Yes, I did change some of the characters. I turned the old blind man into a blind young lady! You've got to have a tragic soprano, don't you? There were two other characters for the brothers of the blind girl, a tenor and a baritone. The role of the monster was (obviously!) for a bass. Well, you already know how it ends. The monster loses his temper and kills the blind girl. She sings about spring coming again, then dies in her brothers' arms. What did you expect in an opera...a happy ending?


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## PrimoUomo (Jul 7, 2013)

I have just started to write the prologue.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Celloman said:


> ...I turned the old blind man into a blind young lady! You've got to have a tragic soprano, don't you? ...


You know, it might be fun to write an opera based on the story of Frankenstein, in which none of the main characters have speaking parts, and the whole thing is related by a wandering, lost troupe of singers, by wild coincidence including one tenor, one coloratura, one spinto soprano, one baritone and one basso... no?


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Novelette said:


> Deggial, that's among my favorite arias of Vivaldi's. Bartoli does a fantastic rendition, and I much prefer hers to this dude's.


then you must like this "version" as well:






great area indeed!


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

guythegreg said:


> You know, it might be fun to write an opera based on the story of Frankenstein, in which none of the main characters have speaking parts, and the whole thing is related by a wandering, lost troupe of singers, by wild coincidence including one tenor, one coloratura, one spinto soprano, one baritone and one basso... no?


you know the coloratura and the spinto will try to outdo each other continuously! which could be part of the role... but I think your idea is fun.


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> The Exorcist





Celloman said:


> I wrote an opera based on Frankenstein for my graduate thesis.


True story: my significant other is currently in rehearsals for a NYC workshop production of "Night of the Living Dead", the opera. He is Zombie #1.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

I can imagine the zombie choruses! :lol: move over gypsies, here come the zombies!


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

:lol: ...just trying to imagine a fine operatic tragic ending ... she dies of TB? uh, no... little more violent...


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

there were surprisingly few vampire related operas at the height of the gothic novel... I've only heard Marschner's Der Vampyr and the libretto is a bit lame by today's standards and kinda boring musically.


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

Celloman said:


> I wrote an opera based on Frankenstein for my graduate thesis. etc etc


Wonderful concept! However, all the greatness of Frankenstein has been forever cooked for us by Mel Brooks and that unforgettable "blind hermit" sequence with Gene Hackman.


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

Being an dedicated Joycean, I'd always wanted an opera based on "Ulysses", libretto by Anthony Burgess, music by Philip Glass.

It's of course way too long, so I've also wanted a couple of Joyce's short stories from "Dubliners" turned into operas. For example, "Araby", music by perhaps Howard Shore. What an agonizingly sad story, perfect for a short opera (read the story-- free for download in the package "Dubliners" and see whether you agree).

And for a longer opera, of course, "The Dead", the final story in Dubliners, itself a very musical story. Watch the superb film, John Huston's last, Angelica stars in it. Superb material for an opera, I think.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

katdad said:


> Being an dedicated Joycean, I'd always wanted an opera based on "Ulysses", libretto by Anthony Burgess, music by Philip Glass.
> 
> It's of course way too long, ....


I don't really believe there is any such thing as an opera which is too long. If the book captivates you why shouldn't the opera? If it's badly written in places, the libretto, well, that's not too long, it's badly written. You just have to break it up into smaller, opera-size pieces and do it that way. I remember a few people wanted to be sure I would leave out the farming scenes in Anna Karenina; but I think they are crucial to the book, and would be crucial to the opera. The visit to the club. The experiment with democracy. These aren't side issues, they're part of why Tolstoy wrote the book, I think.

That said, there are books I can't imagine turning into opera at all. How would we make Between the Acts (Virginia Woolf) an opera? How would we capture that elusive fiery power? I can't imagine it. By comparison, Tolstoy is much clearer and much more straightforward. It should be easy to operatize Anna Karenina. Never having read Ulysses - I think I've attempted it four or five times, without much success - I really can't say how it might work as an opera.


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> I'm trying to think of a way to get Anna Karenina into libretto form, myself ... I think it would take about 11 operas but I bet it could be done ...


Ha! It just so happens there have been ten operas written, so yours should round out the cycle nicely!

From wiki page - Adaptations of Anna Karenina:

_1904-1905: Anna Karenina by Italian composer Edoardo Granelli, composed in years 1904-1905. 
1905: Anna Karenina by Italian composer Salvatore Sassano on libretto by Antonio Menotti. Opera won a prize at the contest of the Institute for the Advancement of Music, Naples and was premièred by Mercadante Theater in Naples in 1905. 
1907: Leoš Janáček begun, but never finished the opera. 
1914: Anna Karénine by French composer Edmond Malherbe, unperformed. 
1914: Karenina Anna by Hungarian composer Jenő Hubay on libretto by Sándor Góth and Andor Gábor based on 1907 Edmond Guiraud's French dramatical adaptation. Premièred in 1923. 
1924: Anna Karenina by Italian verismo composer Igino Robbiani on libretto by Arturo Rosatto, premièred 1924 at the Teatro Costanzi in Rome. 
1930: Anna Karenina, op. 18 by Czech composer Stanislav Goldbach on libretto by Dalibor Chalupa, composed 1927-1930. 
1970: Anna Karenina by Ukrainian composer Yuly Sergeyevich Meytus.[8] 
1978: Anna Karenina by British composer Iain Hamilton on his own libretto, premièred by ENO at the London Coliseum in 1981. 
2007: Anna Karenina, an American opera with music by David Carlson on a libretto by Colin Graham which premiered in 2007 at Florida Grand Opera. Second version with an added scene on text by Mark Streshinsky was premièred in 2010 by Opera San Jose._


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Yeah but I bet they ALL cut out a lot of good stuff. When I do it - in my next life - all the good stuff will remain!


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

dionisio said:


> It could be. But as she is a minor character in the book, i didn't think much of her. The main subject is basically centered in the three friends. Nevertheless, it would be very interesting. I very fond of Wilde.
> 
> BTW, i think a love story like Sid Vicious and Nancy or Johnny Cash and June Carter could be written in a libretto form. What do you people think?


Well somebody thought Wilde himself would be a good subject of an opera:

http://www.santafeopera.org/tickets/production.aspx?performanceNumber=5682

_Buzz has been building in anticipation of The Santa Fe Opera's world premiere of Oscar, composer Theodore Morrison's opera based on the life of Oscar Wilde. Working with librettist and Wilde scholar John Cox, Morrison reveals the profoundly human side of the literary genius and aesthete. The charismatic countertenor David Daniels creates the role of Oscar. His friends Walt Whitman and Ada Leverson are sung by Dwayne Croft and Heidi Stober, with William Burden as Wilde's ally Frank Harris. Evan Rogister, who spellbound with his leadership of King Roger last season, conducts._


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

guythegreg said:


> Yeah but I bet they ALL cut out a lot of good stuff. When I do it - in my next life - all the good stuff will remain!


will it remind us of The Simple Life?


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Well, it won't remind ME of it - I never saw it! (You mean the TV show, right?)


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

yes; I was lightly poking fun at your conviction that the bits about farming are quintessential. Maybe I need to read the book again.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Well, not quintessential; but Kitty and Levin's love affair doesn't exist in a vacuum. I think Tolstoy believed that people express themselves most clearly in action rather than in words, as I do, and so what our guy was up to in his life, what he showed his concern about by his actions, was as clear as possible an expression of himself.


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

guythegreg said:


> Well, not quintessential; but Kitty and Levin's love affair doesn't exist in a vacuum. I think Tolstoy believed that people express themselves most clearly in action rather than in words, as I do, and so what our guy was up to in his life, what he showed his concern about by his actions, was as clear as possible an expression of himself.


Levin, for me, is the most sympathetic character, and thus it makes sense that he might be a kind of extension of Tolstoy's own personality. After all, much of Levin's unusual behaviour (helping the workers harvest) was the behaviour of Tolstoy himself.

I'd love to watch an opera of Anna Karenina that keeps in all the extra detail. Especially an adaptation that gives Alexey Karenin a big role, he's another really sympathetic character.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Jobis said:


> Levin, for me, is the most sympathetic character, and thus it makes sense that he might be a kind of extension of Tolstoy's own personality. After all, much of Levin's unusual behaviour (helping the workers harvest) was the behaviour of Tolstoy himself.
> 
> I'd love to watch an opera of Anna Karenina that keeps in all the extra detail. Especially an adaptation that gives Alexey Karenin a big role, he's another really sympathetic character.


You and me both. It would take a month to see the whole thing, but I believe I'd go.


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

guythegreg said:


> You and me both. It would take a month to see the whole thing, but I believe I'd go.


I wonder if you could break up the chronology and have one opera focus solely on the Levin/Kitty relationship, and one on Alexey/Anna/Vronsky. Taking place over two nights, two 5 hour operas.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

That's an interesting idea. I wonder how it would change people's reactions to the book if that were done? It's such a _straightforward_ piece of work, if you know what I mean. It's hard to imagine that juggling things around would really change the overall response that much.


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

guythegreg said:


> I don't really believe there is any such thing as an opera which is too long. etc etc.


You must like Wagner (ha ha).

Seriously, yes, anything beyond 3 hours can get a bit much. And I freely admit to exceptions, such as Marriage of Figaro, which runs nearly 4 hours uncut.

But Joyce's great novel "Ulysses"? The problem here is not just the length (it's about 250k words) but the words themselves, which are critical to the novel. I've participated in full length "readings" of Ulysses that take place on "Bloomsday" (June 16, the day on which Ulysses takes place, Dublin, 1904) and a full reading takes about 14 hours. It's usually done at a bookstore or student center at a university. Readers start early and visitors come and go, and each volunteer reads about 30 min.

You can easily elide sections but eventually you're faced with incredible wordplay that makes the novel what it really is. Consider chapter 3, the Proteus chapter, famous for its confusing beginning "Ineluctable modality of the visible..." or the great final chapter, Penelope, which is Molly Bloom's soliloquy, only 6 very long sentences and one of the great masterstrokes of modern fiction, ending with "...yes, yes I said, yes I will. Yes." (from my memory but it's pretty close).

Portions of the novel would indeed make a terrific opera but there would have to be so many cuts as to almost bleed the book of all its power. However, on the other side of the coin, we've got 2 excellent films of Ulysses, by the way, "Ulysses" by Joseph Strick from the "new wave" 60s British genre, and a recent "Bloom". Both are very entertaining, by the way, superb introductions to the novel for newcomers.

And maybe this would be the way to go, because these films are about 2 hours each, and if you were to set them to music it would make them longer, at about 3 hours, a pretty good length for an opera. And as with either film, there's plenty of "action" that would satisfy the average opera goer, too.

So it could be done in a reasonable way. Problem is, to carry forth the beauty and power of the novel itself via a masterful libretto written by someone who was not only familiar with opera, but Joyce. A hard task.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

That's why it's got to be Burgess! Well, I'm sure in 5 years or so we'll have the capacity to clone people from cells, so they can just dig him up and start over, eh?


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Working title: "Serene and Calm" - about a band of lunatic renegade pacifists whose goal of bettering the state of the American Indian is to be achieved by giving them access to nuclear weapons.

"We'll try to stay serene and calm ... when Alabama gets the bomb!" - Tom Lehrer

"War is the purest, most vivid expresion of the human soul." - Paul Auster


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Jobis said:


> and have one opera focus solely on the Levin/Kitty relationship


oh, dear! :lol: only if Calixto Bieito directs the production!


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

deggial said:


> oh, dear! :lol: only if Calixto Bieito directs the production!


Hey! I wouldn't call their side of the story boring, maybe a little less dramatic than Anna. perhaps it was a bad idea to 'split' the two, though.

I'd love to see an opera version of one of Lars von Trier's films, Dogville would work very well.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Jobis said:


> I'd love to see an opera version of one of Lars von Trier's films...


Your wish is my command. Based on _Dancer in the Dark_


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

I haven't read the whole thread, but I wonder have any Beckett plays been made into operas?


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Jobis said:


> Hey! I wouldn't call their side of the story boring, maybe a little less dramatic than Anna. perhaps it was a bad idea to 'split' the two, though.


sorry, I get very opinionated  I've a love/hate relationship with Tolstoy. I don't think any of his novels left me properly satisfied.


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

mamascarlatti said:


> Your wish is my command. Based on _Dancer in the Dark_


Not bad, I'll have to check it out. I like the original so much though, I hope they didn't scrap the songs. Plus I can't imagine a better Selma than Bjork, she really made the role her own.


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## aisia (Jul 28, 2013)

katdad said:


> Being an dedicated Joycean, I'd always wanted an opera based on "Ulysses", libretto by Anthony Burgess, music by Philip Glass.
> 
> It's of course way too long, so I've also wanted a couple of Joyce's short stories from "Dubliners" turned into operas. For example, "Araby", music by perhaps Howard Shore. What an agonizingly sad story, perfect for a short opera (read the story-- free for download in the package "Dubliners" and see whether you agree).
> 
> And for a longer opera, of course, "The Dead", the final story in Dubliners, itself a very musical story. Watch the superb film, John Huston's last, Angelica stars in it. Superb material for an opera, I think.


I can't see Araby working as an opera, but The Dead would be perfect. I've had that thought myself before.


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## msegers (Oct 17, 2008)

Thank you with a deep bow. One of the best posts I've ever read... puts a lot of things into perspective.



mamascarlatti said:


> A common explanation of why English doesn't sounds good when sung is that we have a lot of vowel sounds, including nine diphthongs (like the sounds in toes, tourist, fine, here, hair etc), which simply don't sound so attractive in song as the pure monophthongs of Italian.
> 
> I think there is also another aggravating factor.
> 
> ...


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## msegers (Oct 17, 2008)

I've just discovered and read through this whole thread. I love it, probably because my background is in literature rather than music. Being an obsessive Joycean, I was intrigued by the discussion of an opera based on _Ulysses_. I never have imagined such a thing, but I do like the idea of basing such an opera not on the whole novel but rather on the film adaptations, which have already tightened things up.

But, I seem to have heard somewhere that great literary works do not make great operas. Following up on that, I remember an intermission of an old Texaco Met broadcast in which the panelists were asked basically the same question as in this theme, and one of them suggested _Gone with the Wind_. I'm certainly not a fan of the book or the film, and I am aware of and share ethical objections to the treatment of slavery. But, after you cut huge slabs of material, you would come down, to start things off, with a great lead quartet: Scarlett (soprano), Melanie (mezzo?), Ashley (tenor) and Rhett (baritone).

As far as basing an opera on a film, how about Howard Shore's opera of _The Fly_?

When I read a novel, I like to "operatize" it. That is, although I will never compose an opera, I assign voices, look for possibilities for arias, sometimes even divide the material into acts. I find that that is much more fun with a novel read more for entertainment, such as a mystery.

In recent years, I've even thought of an opera based on the stories of Tintin. (Trouser role?)


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## OldFashionedGirl (Jul 21, 2013)

An opera about Barack Obama or second world war.


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## Zabirilog (Mar 10, 2013)

WW II, yes, yes, yes! But who "dares" to do it, that I don't know. 
Maybe me? Ha ha.


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## OldFashionedGirl (Jul 21, 2013)

Zabirilog said:


> WW II, yes, yes, yes! But who "dares" to do it, that I don't know.
> Maybe me? Ha ha.


Yes, it would be interesting. I was joking about an opera about Obama. Talking serious I would like an opera about consumerism and with a critic to society, also an opera about high school life and an opera about 
Russian revolution.


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

An opera about Napoleon in honour of Stanley Kubrick would be great. You could compose a lot of music in the period style.

Or Barry Lyndon! Yes that would be ideal...


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## Zabirilog (Mar 10, 2013)

OldFashionedGirl said:


> Yes, it would be interesting. I was joking about an opera about Obama. Talking serious I would like an opera about consumerism and with a critic to society, also an opera about high school life and an opera about
> Russian revolution.


A huge music drama cycle about the second world war, with massive battle scenes (that's my terrible obsession) and anguished monologues of Roosevelt, Stalin and Hitler.


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

Zabirilog said:


> A huge music drama cycle about the second world war, with massive battle scenes (that's my terrible obsession) and anguished monologues of Roosevelt, Stalin and Hitler.


Or something very small and intimate; Hitler's last days in his bunker for example (a la downfall). There's so much that can be dramatised.


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## Zabirilog (Mar 10, 2013)

Jobis said:


> Or something very small and intimate; Hitler's last days in his bunker for example (a la downfall). There's so much that can be dramatised.


That would be my last act! And then the Soviet soldiers would come, burn his and Braun's body (umm... how to stage it?). It could end by Truman coming to Hitler's body when the Star-Spangled Banner played by onstage brass band. The nuclear bombs are maybe not needed.


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

Zabirilog said:


> It could end by Truman coming to Hitler's body when the Star-Spangled Banner played by onstage brass band. The nuclear bombs are maybe not needed.


I'm not sure that would be such a hit here in europe :lol:

Maybe a bald eagle could fly in with Osama bin laden's rotting corpse in its beak and a single tear would fall from its eye? Or perhaps that's too much.


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

Zabirilog said:


> That would be my last act! And then the Soviet soldiers would come, burn his and Braun's body (umm... how to stage it?). It could end by Truman coming to Hitler's body when the Star-Spangled Banner played by onstage brass band. The nuclear bombs are maybe not needed.


The last act of WWII begins in Los Alamos, New Mexico and ends in the Pacific. But John Adams already covered that in _Dr. Atomic_, nuclear bombs and all.


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