# A Thread for People who Don't Like Mozart



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

No arguments here PLEASE. Just a nice thread where we can discuss all the music that is so much better than most of the stuff Mozart wrote. I really can't stand the Mozart-Modern conflict on TC, I don't want any more civil wars.


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## Prodromides

Cool!

I want to mention how superb *LES HEURES PERSANES* by Charles Koechlin is!


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## Toddlertoddy

I don't personally like all of the Classical era as much as the Modern era. I wouldn't say anything is "better" than most of the stuff he wrote, it's just preference or not.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Toddlertoddy said:


> I don't personally like all of the Classical era as much as the Modern era. I wouldn't say anything is "better" than most of the stuff he wrote, it's just preference or not.


It's just that I'm incredibly biased. :tiphat:


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## BurningDesire

Toddlertoddy said:


> I don't personally like all of the Classical era as much as the Modern era. I wouldn't say anything is "better" than most of the stuff he wrote, it's just preference or not.


Do you think of all musical quality being subjective?


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## science

Seems to me that every thread that isn't about Mozart can be for people who don't like Mozart. 

But clearly I'm naive and idealistic. My stupidity never ceases to astonish me. 

What we need is an anti-classical music forum. For instance, instead of having threads for each composer, there would be a thread excluding each composer. Instead of threads for people who like particular periods or styles or instruments or performers or recordings, there would be threads for people who didn't like those things. 

Of course that would devolve into solipsism, but isn't that the point? We're evidently all too good to share anything with each other, our tastes are evidently permanent and unalterable, we evidently all know all we need to - or it is soon made clear to us that we don't have a right to be here. If we can only create precise enough anti-threads and anti-subforums no one will have to encounter difference, and won't be bothered by each other's inferiority.


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## StlukesguildOhio

I want to mention how superb *LES HEURES PERSANES* by Charles Koechlin is!

Yes... Koechlin is truly an underrated composer.


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## neoshredder

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> No arguments here PLEASE. Just a nice thread where we can discuss all the music that is so much better than most of the stuff Mozart wrote. I really can't stand the Mozart-Modern conflict on TC, I don't want any more civil wars.


Interesting strategy. I doubt the conflict can be avoided though. The Mozart fans can't help themselves.


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## Toddlertoddy

BurningDesire said:


> Do you think of all musical quality being subjective?


Obviously. I can respect someone who says that Justin Bieber is the best (as long as they're not in-your-face about it)


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## neoshredder




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## Sid James

science said:


> ...
> What we need is an anti-classical music forum. For instance, instead of having threads for each composer, *there would be a thread excluding each composer. *Instead of threads for people who like particular periods or styles or instruments or performers or recordings, there would be threads for people who didn't like those things. ....


Re 'exclusion,' it sounds a bit like (sorry to bring this up yet again)...Stalin's 'formalism' and Hitler's 'degenerate art.' Catch-all words that basically meant nothing and everything, or anything they liked (eg. highly arbitary). Basically they are fancy terms for 'art/music/people we don't like.'

But seriously, people should be allowed to say what they want to say about anything, as long as it does not break the rules or (I'd add) is put in a nasty way.

Bias is okay, ideology is too, as long as you don't force yours on others.

The other thing is that Mozart or Brahms or Schoenberg or whoever where not gods. They where people like us. Of course they were highly creative and talented men, many call them geniuses, but the fact is they were human like all of us - they had families, they had sex lives, they had friends, they had to do hackwork and boring bread-and-butter type things sometimes to survive, they had musical idols, they had political views, ideological and religious/ethical views, they contradicted themselves, I mean I can go on and on...

I mean Mozart did rehash, eg. at least one of the flute quartets has a movement culled from another work. It's not a problem, I like Mozart, but he hated composing for the flute as a solo instrument. He wrote this to his father. So his heart was not in writing his flute quartets, or his very popular concertos involving flute. Of course if you're not interested in the history of these works, you can enjoy them without knowing these types of historical details. However it goes to show that Wolfie had to earn money and put food on the table like anyone else. When he was in Salzburg, working for the Archbishop (I think), he hated using the same entrance to the palace as the cooks and servants. But that was the position of a composer or musician back then. & like cooks, they were needed to 'cook up' a piece on demand whenever an ocassion beckoned, whether their heart was in it or not. 'Music made to order' does not sit well with our own modern (or 'Romantic' era) views of a creative artist. But that's exactly what they did. So of course a good deal of 'sewing machine' music resulted, that's the plain fact.
http://www.talkclassical.com/19502-music-made-order.html

*Anyway, I won't go on. I'm sick of things like people turning what I said back on me. Eg. putting words into my mouth. Online is not like a normal conversation. Its not as natural (unless you're on skype or stuff like that). Its a different ball game entirely. So what I say is people, don't assume things about me you don't know. But its okay to ask and clarify, stuff like that. It's a forum, which is for discussion of opinions.*

And basically NO AGEISM. Not on, its really isn't.


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## BurningDesire

Toddlertoddy said:


> Obviously. I can respect someone who says that Justin Bieber is the best (as long as they're not in-your-face about it)


I can respect that view. ^_^


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## neoshredder

Mozart was the Bieber of his time? Ok I won't go that far. lol


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## BurningDesire

I actually _do_ like Mozart X3 Can I still post here?


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## neoshredder

Yes. Everyone likes Mozart. I'm listening to Mozart right now actually.


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## regressivetransphobe

Toddlertoddy said:


> Obviously. I can respect someone who says that Justin Bieber is the best (as long as they're not in-your-face about it)


If it's a kid who doesn't know any better, then you're right. If it's a 20-something marketing yuppie type who knows music theory and is trying to be post-ironic, you put him in a barrel and roll it down a mountain.


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## Guest

I'm not really wading into this debate.

But seriously. How can anyone dislike a composer who wrote a work like "Leck Mich Im Arsch, K.231/K.382c". If you're not sure about the translation, look it up, cause I can't write it here! 

Maybe Mozart was channelling Zappa?


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## BurningDesire

BPS said:


> I'm not really wading into this debate.
> 
> But seriously. How can anyone dislike a composer who wrote a work like "Leck Mich Im Arsch, K.231/K.382c". If you're not sure about the translation, look it up, cause I can't write it here!
> 
> Maybe Mozart was channelling Zappa?


Or perhaps Mozart and Zappa weren't so different after all! *gasp, faint*


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## Sid James

BPS said:


> ...
> But seriously. How can anyone dislike a composer who wrote a work like "Leck Mich Im Arsch, K.231/K.382c". If you're not sure about the translation, look it up, cause I can't write it here!
> 
> ...


Sounds like a very special type of 'Musical Joke.' Maybe he was related to PDQ Bach as well?


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## Couchie

Moz-non-art, I say.


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## Crudblud

Ein kleine Nichtmusik

tee hee hee


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## neoshredder

Done with Mozart. His early symphonies are almost edible. The only Composers music I have eaten are Vivaldi's Concertos. Time for Schnittke's Symphonies which is like straight whiskey without a chaser.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Sid James said:


> I mean Mozart did rehash, eg. at least one of the flute quartets has a movement culled from another work. It's not a problem, I like Mozart, but he hated composing for the flute as a solo instrument. He wrote this to his father. So his heart was not in writing his flute quartets, or his very popular concertos involving flute. Of course if you're not interested in the history of these works, you can enjoy them without knowing these types of historical details...[/B]


That was true about the great Mozart not being as passionate with the flute as he was say with the basset horn (i.e. clarinet, as we would call the modern equivalent today). I think his best flute piece was the concerto for flute and harp in C major, K.299. Obviously a very unusual combination, and such a popular piece; which given his apparent dislike for the flute, he still did his best as musical taste amongst Classical music listeners have proven ever since.

Oooops! I forgot! Off topic! This thread is not about the great Mozart.

Let me see. I came across this clarinet quintet by English composer *Joseph Holbrooke* (1878-1958). It has that typical English sentimentality, and it carried through quite well throughout the piece.


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## Ramako

I used to think Mozart over-rated, particularly when I first got into Haydn 

I found all but 2 of his symphonies relatively uninteresting, I could take or leave the concertos, and everything hung on his requiem. Then my opinion of him became worse when I met a massive fan. Once he claimed that some mathematician had come up with a formula to find which was the best composer, and it turned out to be Mozart by miles. It had something to do with the number of notes in a bar and pi. I said it was a really stupid formula. He said yes, but it was true anyway  This guy really put me off as well for ages. Then I discovered (some of) the operas. And the chamber music. I could practically live off the great quintets, and the quartets make a great side-dish .

It's amazing how fans of a composer can really put you off. I almost find Bach's fanclub do that as well
:sidles out quickly to avoid having deadly 12-part canons shot at him:


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## PlaySalieri

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> No arguments here PLEASE. Just a nice thread where we can discuss all the music that is so much better than most of the stuff Mozart wrote. I really can't stand the Mozart-Modern conflict on TC, I don't want any more civil wars.


I am beginning to think you are a closet Mozart fan. One day you will come on here and admit to it.


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## PlaySalieri

Ramako said:


> I used to think Mozart over-rated, particularly when I first got into Haydn
> 
> I found all but 2 of his symphonies relatively uninteresting, I could take or leave the concertos, and everything hung on his requiem. Then my opinion of him became worse when I met a massive fan. Once he claimed that some mathematician had come up with a formula to find which was the best composer, and it turned out to be Mozart by miles. It had something to do with the number of notes in a bar and pi. I said it was a really stupid formula. He said yes, but it was true anyway  This guy really put me off as well for ages. Then I discovered (some of) the operas. And the chamber music. I could practically live off the great quintets, and the quartets make a great side-dish .
> 
> It's amazing how fans of a composer can really put you off. I almost find Bach's fanclub do that as well
> :sidles out quickly to avoid having deadly 12-part canons shot at him:


If I come across people who rave about something - I usually check it out and make my own judgement. Someone on here was raving about Clementi - I had already dismissed this composer but the raving made me want to check him out again. In my early days a friend raved about Dvoraktill I was fed up to my back teeth - I checked out is sy 9 - and found it was worth raving about.


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## eorrific

Oh, I thought this was going to be a recommendation thread for people who don't like Mozart. Now how does listening to Koechlin going to help me appreciate Mozart better.


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## NightHawk

@HarpsichordConcerto...

I like that Flute and Harp Concerto in C major, as well! The 2nd movement, especially, is on another plane altogether. In the main, however, Mozart's best flute music is to be found in certain of his symphonies and concertos for piano, where he writes exquisitely in 'solo' 'soli' and 'unison' passages for an instrument that he said (at 21 years of age in a letter to his father) he 'hated'.

I think one reason some people reallllly don't like Mozart might be because of the smooth surface of his music - it is elegant and effortless. I can <sic> understand that. I often prefer to listen to a Haydn symphony or quartet simply because they're more scruffy. _Don Giovanni, the Clarinet Concerto in A_, K.622 and the _Piano Concerto No. 23 in A_, K. 488, however, defy criticism, as far as I'm concerned. 



HarpsichordConcerto said:


> That was true about the great Mozart not being as passionate with the flute as he was say with the basset horn (i.e. clarinet, as we would call the modern equivalent today). I think his best flute piece was the concerto for flute and harp in C major, K.299. Obviously a very unusual combination, and such a popular piece; which given his apparent dislike for the flute, he still did his best as musical taste amongst Classical music listeners have proven ever since.


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## BurningDesire

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> the basset horn (i.e. clarinet, as we would call the modern equivalent today)


Actually no, we wouldn't. The clarinet (although an earlier form of what we know today) existed during Mozart's time, hence the fact that he wrote music specifically for that instrument AND he also had parts in other pieces for the basset horn specifically. The basset horn is generally considered part of the clarinet family of instruments, and has fallen out of use like many other obscure wind instruments utilized by great composers, but its not equivalent.


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## StlukesguildOhio

That was true about the great Mozart not being as passionate with the flute as he was say with the basset horn (i.e. clarinet, as we would call the modern equivalent today). I think his best flute piece was the concerto for flute and harp in C major, K.299. Obviously a very unusual combination, and such a popular piece; which given his apparent dislike for the flute, he still did his best as musical taste amongst Classical music listeners have proven ever since.

I've recognized for some time that the notion that an artist must have a passionate and profoundly emotional engagement with the whole of a work of art is a Romantic notion that is blatantly false in that it ignores the reality of how art was created in the past and how some art is still created today. Michelangelo wanted nothing to do with the commission for the painting of the Sistine ceiling. He saw himself as a sculptor and not a painter. His journals are filled with laments over being forced to undertake this project when his time might be better spent engaged in his true love, sculpture. And still, the results speak for themselves. I suspect that many composers were directed as court employees... or commissioned to compose works that may not have been their first choice. I suspect many others have labored on given works that took them away from their real passion due to the need for money. While much of this work rarely rises above the level of commercial hack-work, a great deal deal still rises to a far higher level as the result of the artists making the absolute best of a less-than-ideal situation.

Let me see. I came across this clarinet quintet by English composer Joseph Holbrooke (1878-1958). It has that typical English sentimentality, and it carried through quite well throughout the piece. 

Yes... nice piece. I have it (along with several others) on this disc:


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## aleazk

I prefer Haydn. Can we move on?, this 'debate' is getting quite annoying and most important: quite boring...


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## moody

BPS said:


> I'm not really wading into this debate.
> 
> But seriously. How can anyone dislike a composer who wrote a work like "Leck Mich Im Arsch, K.231/K.382c". If you're not sure about the translation, look it up, cause I can't write it here!
> 
> Maybe Mozart was channelling Zappa?


Well, here you all are I was wondering where you'd all run too.
BPS, you have waded into this "debate" (it isn't a debate because they are all of a like mind!)
I will not either, but I imagine that you are perfectly well aware that these bawdy songs were written for laughs and to be performed by Mozart and his friends privately. Germanic humour tends to be scatalogical to this day ,but then most guys are rather like that when they are having a laugh and boozing.
But apparently one of these anti-Mozart types can respect someone who says that Justin Bieber is the greatest, no wonder he doesn't like Mozart.


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## Carpenoctem

You may hate Mozart, you may love him, but the truth is, he will always be remembered as one of the best composers who ever lived.

He inspired many great composers, and even today, many years after his death, listeners, musicologists, composers talk about him with love and admiration.

On the other hand, angry people on the forums, will not be remembered, so it really doesn't matter how much you hate/despise him.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Mozart is like meh to my ears. Mozart was a good composer, nothin special, very highly regarded.


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## Carpenoctem

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Mozart is like meh to my ears. Mozart was a good composer, nothin special, very highly regarded.


I have previously thought Chopin was kind of overrated, but once I listened to majority of his compositions I changed my opinion, I think same thing also happened with Haydn.

I didn't think he was as good as people thought him to be, but once I discovered his music a bit more I realized why people like him.


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## neoshredder

The Classical goes like this.
CPE Bach
Haydn
Beethoven
Mozart
Boccherini
Stamitz


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## mmsbls

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Mozart was a good composer, nothin special, very highly regarded.


I know you care deeply about classical music - the theory, the history, the composers, etc. When you consider that composers such as Haydn, Beethoven, Schumann, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Bernstein (and many, many others) as well as numerous great conductors believe Mozart was not just special but one of the most special composers ever, do you ever wonder if you are missing something that those others get?

Several years ago I felt that certain modern music (avant-garde) was a mistake. So few people liked it. I hated it. I thought many modern composers had simply lost their way. I still don't appreciate the vast majority of avant-garde music, but after talking to some who love it, reading posts on TC from many who have expressed detailed appreciation, and reading expert opinion in various books, I understand that my former belief was clearly wrong. Many very knowledgeable people find beauty, interest, and significant value in much avant-garde music. My bad.

Obviously you're not thrilled with Mozart, and I in no way want to argue about your opinions or Mozart's true place amongst composers. I simply wonder how you view your assessment of Mozart as a composer knowing that so many music "greats" strongly differ.


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## neoshredder

It's music taste. Not everyone gets Mozart. Some of his music can get annoyingly repetitious. His Violin Concertos for an example.


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## BurningDesire

mmsbls said:


> I know you care deeply about classical music - the theory, the history, the composers, etc. When you consider that composers such as Haydn, Beethoven, Schumann, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Bernstein (and many, many others) as well as numerous great conductors believe Mozart was not just special but one of the most special composers ever, do you ever wonder if you are missing something that those others get?
> 
> Several years ago I felt that certain modern music (avant-garde) was a mistake. So few people liked it. I hated it. I thought many modern composers had simply lost their way. I still don't appreciate the vast majority of avant-garde music, but after talking to some who love it, reading posts on TC from many who have expressed detailed appreciation, and reading expert opinion in various books, I understand that my former belief was clearly wrong. Many very knowledgeable people find beauty, interest, and significant value in much avant-garde music. My bad.
> 
> Obviously you're not thrilled with Mozart, and I in no way want to argue about your opinions or Mozart's true place amongst composers. I simply wonder how you view your assessment of Mozart as a composer knowing that so many music "greats" strongly differ.


It is good to have self-scrutiny of one's knowledge and ability and experience, but it's also good to be able to recognize when admiration is blown up into a form of religious worship. I don't think Mozart's achievements eclipse those of those composers you listed, even though they were all probably humble enough to think of themselves as less than that. I recognize why alot of composers love Mozart's music so much (alot of it has to do with elegance and clarity of form) but that isn't the most important thing for ME in music, and so I'm not so enthralled by his music. There are plenty who have written with very clever or elegant forms who also explore harmony and melody and rhythm and especially color and texture in ways Mozart really didn't with the exception of some of his late works. I think alot of the praise given to Mozart is comparable to religious belief. If you question the greatness of this figure, you usually get criticized or belittled for it, no matter how innocently you do it. That's not right. I have equal problems with how dogmatic the avant-garde was through a large chunk of the 20th Century, especially from the 40s to the 70s, where you were ignored if you even dared to use diatonic modes, or tonal procedures in your music. People with great knowledge in the field of music thought this way, still think this way. That is wrong too. I also feel similarly to the general religiosity of the whole of classical music that assumes that classical is superior to any other form of music, especially pop and rock and folk music. I think that is wrong too.


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## PlaySalieri

mmsbls said:


> I know you care deeply about classical music - the theory, the history, the composers, etc. When you consider that composers such as Haydn, Beethoven, Schumann, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Bernstein (and many, many others) as well as numerous great conductors believe Mozart was not just special but one of the most special composers ever, do you ever wonder if you are missing something that those others get?
> 
> Several years ago I felt that certain modern music (avant-garde) was a mistake. So few people liked it. I hated it. I thought many modern composers had simply lost their way. I still don't appreciate the vast majority of avant-garde music, but after talking to some who love it, reading posts on TC from many who have expressed detailed appreciation, and reading expert opinion in various books, I understand that my former belief was clearly wrong. Many very knowledgeable people find beauty, interest, and significant value in much avant-garde music. My bad.
> 
> Obviously you're not thrilled with Mozart, and I in no way want to argue about your opinions or Mozart's true place amongst composers. I simply wonder how you view your assessment of Mozart as a composer knowing that so many music "greats" strongly differ.


I have challenged him on this point and he never responds. I have a book "Mozart and Posterity" by Gernot Gruber - it's quite a fair book because it records opinions pro and contra - but what overwhelmingly comes across is not just interest in Mozart's legacy - but the passionate interest of really great musical figures of the past - it seems absurd to say that Mozart is merely a "good" composer given that he has the biggest recorded catalogue in music and interest in the scholarly world grows all the time. CofAVGarde trolls this topic - at the same time he listens to the operas - even recommends recordings. I don't think someone who champions Ligeti would waste time having opinions about different verions of M operas if he did not have a high respect himself for the music.


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## PlaySalieri

BurningDesire said:


> I don't think Mozart's achievements eclipse those of those composers you listed,


Yes they do - by a long shot.


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## Carpenoctem

BurningDesire said:


> I also feel similarly to the general religiosity of the whole of classical music that assumes that classical is superior to any other form of music, especially pop and rock and folk music. I think that is wrong too.


Finally we agree on something!

But believe me, elitism doesn't only exist in classical music. You can find it anywhere.

I also listen to electronic music (ambient, progressive trance, classic trance, deep house, progressive house) and believe me, an average mainstream house or trance listener has absolutely no knowledge of the genre and still thinks it's the best music out there.

Mainstream popularity is killing so many genres, underground producers struggle to survive just because people don't dig deeper into their "favorite" music.


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## BurningDesire

stomanek said:


> Yes they do - by a long shot.


Nope, sorry. Try again.


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## bigshot

There is a really easy way to identify youthful inexperience... An inexperienced kid, when faced with music he doesn't understand or is bored by will always blame it on the music, regardless of what more knowledgeable people have to say. Someone who has been around the block a few times, and has had the opportunity to be reminded of his own fallibility more times than he'd like! will look a little deeper and consider the possibility that the lacking may just be in himself.

It isn't possible for a kid to learn from someone when he won't consider the possibility that he might be wrong. You can beat your head on the wall from now till doomsday and it won't make a lick of difference. Until someone wants to learn from others, they won't

The best thing about youth is that it has a cure... The passage of time. Just pat them on the head and they'll understand someday.


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## BurningDesire

Carpenoctem said:


> Finally we agree on something!
> 
> But believe me, elitism doesn't only exist in classical music. You can find it anywhere.
> 
> I also listen to electronic music (ambient, progressive trance, classic trance, deep house, progressive house) and believe me, an average mainstream house or trance listener has absolutely no knowledge of the genre and still thinks it's the best music out there.
> 
> Mainstream popularity is killing so many genres, underground producers struggle to survive just because people don't dig deeper into their "favorite" music.


I also really like electronic music, though I admit that I'm no expert in the medium. It is rather annoying meeting people who seem so passionate about a particular musical style or genre, and they only listen to a couple of artists and have never even attempted to explore outside of those few.


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## moody

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Mozart is like meh to my ears. Mozart was a good composer, nothin special, very highly regarded.


I suppose Burning Desire and you can disappear off into the sunset passing each other "likes". Trouble is very few others will---Oh, except Neoshredder of course.


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## BurningDesire

bigshot said:


> There is a really easy way to identify youthful inexperience... An inexperienced kid, when faced with music he doesn't understand or is bored by will always blame it on the music, regardless of what more knowledgeable people have to say. Someone who has been around the block a few times, and has had the opportunity to be reminded of his own fallibility more times than he'd like! will look a little deeper and consider the possibility that the lacking may just be in himself.
> 
> It isn't possible for a kid to learn from someone when he won't consider the possibility that he might be wrong. You can beat your head on the wall from now till doomsday and it won't make a lick of difference. Until someone wants to learn from others, they won't


The same thing could be said of close-minded older folks. Its possible to be old and experienced and still quite ignorant, to not always scrutinize one's own knowledge or ideas. Young people by no means have a monopoly on that fault.


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## bigshot

You would be surprised how much music there is beyond what you know about. Of course, we all know that there's a lot of classical music and jazz and rock. But that isn't even a drop in the bucket of the ocean of musical experience out there to be had. Even the Easy Listening category at the record store is vast and filled with treasures.


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## PlaySalieri

BurningDesire said:


> Nope, sorry. Try again.


The composers in that list did not produce masterworks in such great numbers - across every available genre. Mozart did.


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## Carpenoctem

stomanek said:


> The composers in that list did not produce masterworks in such great numbers - across every available genre. Mozart did.


That's true, Mozart wrote masterpieces in every single genre (despite living only 35/36 years)

I like so many composers, but overall, he is the most well - rounded composer.


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## PetrB

*Correction!*

Correction!

A Thread for People who Don't GET Mozart.
:tiphat:


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## mmsbls

BurningDesire said:


> It is good to have self-scrutiny of one's knowledge and ability and experience, but it's also good to be able to recognize when admiration is blown up into a form of religious worship.


It seems there are 2 general views you can have:

1) Mozart was a good composer but not really that special. AND apparently the overwhelming majority of composers, conductors, musicians, and classical music listeners are guilty of a form of religious worship. Therefore, I am _not_ missing something that the others do not.

2) Mozart's music may truly be special. Maybe I am missing something many others do not.

There are plenty of examples of true experts who got things wrong in the face of the majority who did not. Einstein and quantum mechanics is one such example. Is it really easier to believe #1 than #2?

I certainly don't think there's anything wrong with not believing Mozart's music (or any other music) is great. And if you want to say Mozart's music is not special _to you_, I would agree based on your posts.


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## neoshredder

moody said:


> I suppose Burning Desire and you can disappear off into the sunset passing each other "likes". Trouble is very few others will---Oh, except Neoshredder of course.


Stop trolling this thread.


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## PlaySalieri

mmsbls said:


> It seems there are 2 general views you can have:
> 
> 1) Mozart was a good composer but not really that special. AND apparently the overwhelming majority of composers, conductors, musicians, and classical music listeners are guilty of a form of religious worship. Therefore, I am _not_ missing something that the others do not.
> 
> 2) Mozart's music may truly be special. Maybe I am missing something many others do not.
> 
> There are plenty of examples of true experts who got things wrong in the face of the majority who did not. Einstein and quantum mechanics is one such example. Is it really easier to believe #1 than #2?
> 
> I certainly don't think there's anything wrong with not believing Mozart's music (or any other music) is great. And if you want to say Mozart's music is not special _to you_, I would agree based on your posts.


I can relate to how people who can't see what the fuss about Mozart is - my own blind spot (among others) is Handel. He wrote a lot of operas and they are popular here in the UK. I haven't found a way into them and don't see what the fuss is about. However - I would never make a comment like "Handel is overrated" or "Handel is dull" or "Handel does not deserve to be rated as a great composer". His works have been around for 250 odd years and he has a reputation for having written music of high artistic merit. On the basis of his position in musical history - the number of works he has in current repertory - I would have to accept that position and simply accept that my moments with Handel may be yet to come.
I don't think it's religious reverence where music is concerned - people won't listen to what they don't like but they do usually at least try not to appear foolish.


----------



## neoshredder

If you like Mozart and have something to say for people who don't, don't come in this thread. Simple as that. Btw I like Mozart. I just don't attack people who don't.


----------



## moody

neoshredder said:


> Stop trolling this thread.


Oh,you're just in a bad mood because you were disciplined. I not sure I even know what trolling means.


----------



## StlukesguildOhio

It is good to have self-scrutiny of one's knowledge and ability and experience, but it's also good to be able to recognize when admiration is blown up into a form of religious worship. I don't think Mozart's achievements eclipse those of those composers you listed, even though they were all probably humble enough to think of themselves as less than that. I recognize why alot of composers love Mozart's music so much (alot of it has to do with elegance and clarity of form) but that isn't the most important thing for ME in music, and so I'm not so enthralled by his music. There are plenty who have written with very clever or elegant forms who also explore harmony and melody and rhythm and especially color and texture in ways Mozart really didn't with the exception of some of his late works.

In other words, the opinions of the educated musician and composer is worth 1000X the opinion of the "mere" experienced listener... except when that opinion conflicts with your own?

I think alot of the praise given to Mozart is comparable to religious belief.

Well then it would seem that the problem is in your thinking... or lack thereof. There only "thinking" here that approaches the dogma and fanaticism of certain "true believers" is found in your non-stop obsession with Mozart and the need to "prove" that he wasn't all that... that everyone else is wrong... that all the composers and conductors and soloists who know 1000X more about music than you will ever know are somehow blinded to the fact that Mozart was just one more middling composer of many. Nearly everyone here who admits to loving Mozart has admitted that the whole of his oeuvre wasn't brilliant... that a good portion of his early works were no better than those of any number of his peers. Such an admission, it would seem, would clearly undermine the notion that the admiration or praise afforded to Mozart is akin to some mindless religious dogma. But that would assume a clearly thing individual without a dogma of his or her own to defend at all costs.

If you question the greatness of this figure, you usually get criticized or belittled for it...


And you are confused by this? Sweeping dismissals of Shakespeare or Rembrandt or Michelangelo or Beethoven are just as likely to be afforded little or no respect. Whether you like the fact fact or not, Mozart is recognized by the great majority of the classical music world as standing among such company. The continual complaints of a student composer wannabe is not likely to change this fact in the least. This does not mean that Mozart (or any great artist) is above criticism... but intelligent criticism that sites examples rooted in logic... and not one based solely upon personal opinion... not one based on limited experience. How does one seriously offer a critical assessment of Mozart without any real experience with his operas... and with opera as whole?


----------



## PetrB

Prodromides said:


> Cool!
> 
> I want to mention how superb *LES HEURES PERSANES* by Charles Koechlin is!


Wonderful quietly virtuosic piece. Very quiet - so much so I think it stays relatively unknown and its merit is overlooked,


----------



## PetrB

neoshredder said:


> If you like Mozart and have something to say for people who don't, don't come in this thread. Simple as that. Btw I like Mozart. I just don't attack people who don't.


And this statement is not just a wee titch tyrannical? "Don't say..." It's a public forum, and a public thread. If you don't like what others say, the OP should not have posted this divisive business to begin with. Kids in the sandbox, arguing about the limitations and preferences of their taste. Just what an intelligent discussion of music should be. Meh, Fiddlesticks, and Humbug.

"If you can not take the heat stay out of the kitchen."


----------



## PetrB

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> No arguments here PLEASE. Just a nice thread where we can discuss all the music that is so much better than most of the stuff Mozart wrote. I really can't stand the Mozart-Modern conflict on TC, I don't want any more civil wars.


Dude, it is you who set up and posted a "Thread for those who Do Not Like...." I find your claim you want it 'all nice' more than a little disingenuous.


----------



## Ramako

@BurningDesire Please say things like "I find Mozart boring" rather than "Mozart is boring", and more so "If you think Mozart is the best music has to offer, you clearly don't comprehend..." or whatever it was you said. There is a difference. One is subjective, the other objective. If you are going to make objective remarks then back them up in facts. You make very fair posts often, but others are plain provocative.

@SLG Stop picking BD's comments out of context and making the same points, continuing the argumentativeness beyond where it needs to go. When I found the subject of your last post I found it went on generally different lines to what you said. I disagreed with it plenty though, but the thoughts you said didn't even occur to me as I read it.

However, I feel somehow this is not going to work. Wonder why? >.>


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

peeyaj said:


> COAG *likes* Schubert and Beethoven.


Schubert's Octet is an amazing work! And Beethoven's fourth symphony I find quite charming.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

neoshredder said:


> I wish the conflicting discussions about Mozart would end. Let this forum go back to normal.


Me too. What's the best recording of Corelli's op. 6 in your opinion?


----------



## neoshredder

Trevor Pinnock I think. Manze is worth checking out though for Op. 5 and Handel's Op. 6. Manze is great with all the Violin Sonatas of the Baroque Era.


----------



## crmoorhead

peeyaj said:


> COAG *likes* Schubert and Beethoven.


And Haydn.  I don't think COAG is a troll at all, just a bit of an impetuous thread starter who can be slightly manic. The mania certainly isn't a bad thing. I can't recall anything too objectionable about neoshredder, but maybe I missed it. BurningDesire seems to take a lot of things as a personal accusation and responds in kind. Comments that I have seen made by others vis a vis Xenakis or whoever are more reasonable since I can see WHY they might think the music sounds like a chainsaw etc Its perfectly obvious to the ear that they are radical/extreme pieces that are harder to accept. Not so with harsh opinions of Mozart. Its also worth bearing in mind that myself and most others actually have interest in both modernism and classicism.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I just want to say thanks to those who have stood up for me against those trolls who call me a troll for apparently "not liking Mozart."


----------



## moody

BurningDesire said:


> What have I said that is hurtful or unpleasant? I've certainly had genuinely hurtful things said to me, just for having opinions.


I don't need to justify what I've said because the "evidence" is all there for everyone to see.
What do you think has caused all the shouting and yelling.
A moderator has stepped in with a warning and Neoshredder says that he was awarded an infraction and that it was my fault !
To cap it all COAG thanks people for supporting him against the trolls ? Are they the members including VSM et al who are 100 years behind ?
Or the ones who are arrogant and uninformed ?
I object to being called a dinosaur and being told that a trained musician trumps me and 999 other listeners with no real experience beyond the passive.
And what about judgements made in ignorance following the ignorant herd---necrophilliac fetishizm---very popular among dinosaurs and other very limited conservative listeners---God forbid you expand your horirons and grow as a human being, etc,etc.
I find the approach distasteful and lacking in respect in every way.

I really think that enough is enough and I have nothing more to say, it has all been said !!


----------



## Genoveva

bigshot said:


> I don't get hurt by things said in internet forums. But I do judge people by their comments. I'm afraid that's the way it is. My judgement of you BD is that you often speak at length on subjects you're not really acquainted with.


You mean you have only just twigged on to this?


----------



## Genoveva

BurningDesire said:


> What have I said that is hurtful or unpleasant? I've certainly had genuinely hurtful things said to me, just for having opinions.


You shouldn't go around promoting your interest in a virtual non-entity "composer" like Zappa whilst deniigrating Mozart. It tends to irritate people. Nor should you tell members of this Forum that the opinion of one trained musician is worth that of 1000 listeners. That tends to irritate people enormously and is an insult to the whole Forum. Nor should you go around telling people they are "lazy" because they haven't bothered to investigate the kinds of modern composers you like. It would also be helpful if you could attempt to answer questions put to you about aspects of Mozart's music which you find "over-rated", rather than ignoring them. This too tends to irritate people.


----------



## Carpenoctem

Neoshredder, moody didn't report you to the mods, I did.

Even since I joined this forum you have been trolling and making bad atmopshere here. 

You made a thread in which you said the Modern composers are better than Mozart and it's all ok. But when jani created a thread for people who don't like modern music, you came to the thread and called that thread a dinosaur thread, and that isn't an insult? Really?

The same thing goes for ComposerOfAvantgarde and BurningDesire (even though he isn't as hostile as the other two). They are ruining this forum. There seems to be a lot of intelligent members here with a lot of listening experience who want to share opinions with others but seeing these 3 with their childish threads about hate and trolling posts just make me sick.

Anyway, this seems to be a great forum and if anyone knows how I can ignore them so they can't see my posts and I can't see their please PM me.

Thank you.


----------



## TrazomGangflow

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> No arguments here PLEASE. Just a nice thread where we can discuss all the music that is so much better than most of the stuff Mozart wrote. I really can't stand the Mozart-Modern conflict on TC, I don't want any more civil wars.


I think you created this thread to start a conflict. Did you actually believe people wouldn't defend Mozart on this thread?


----------



## BurningDesire

TrazomGangflow said:


> I think you created this thread to start a conflict. Did you actually believe people wouldn't defend Mozart on this thread?


It was started to quarantine the arguments and discussions on this subject that occurred in many other unrelated threads. It was a wise thing to do to create this thread.


----------



## TrazomGangflow

BurningDesire said:


> It was started to quarantine the arguments and discussions on this subject that occurred in many other unrelated threads. It was a wise thing to do to create this thread.


"Just a nice thread where we can discuss all of the music that is so much better than most of the stuff Mozart wrote"
That sounds like an attack to me and seems to undo the "no arguments PLEASE". I'm not trying to defend Mozart and for all I know I might find modernist composers and others more enjoyable than him. I'm just making the point that this thread does not appear to quarantine the arguments, but expand them. The best way to end the Mozart-Modernist argument would be to forget about it altogether but the chance of that is unlikely.


----------



## starthrower

Genoveva said:


> You shouldn't go around promoting your interest in a virtual non-entity "composer" like Zappa whilst deniigrating Mozart. It tends to irritate people.


 It never ends, does it? Admonishing someone for denigrating Mozart while denigrating Zappa doesn't make much sense.


----------



## Ramako

BurningDesire said:


> It was started to quarantine the arguments and discussions on this subject that occurred in many other unrelated threads. It was a wise thing to do to create this thread.


I agree. It would work if there was only one. Instead there are lots. But I think it is calming down now anyways


----------



## neoshredder

Carpenoctem said:


> Neoshredder, moody didn't report you to the mods, I did.
> 
> Even since I joined this forum you have been trolling and making bad atmopshere here.
> 
> You made a thread in which you said the Modern composers are better than Mozart and it's all ok. But when jani created a thread for people who don't like modern music, you came to the thread and called that thread a dinosaur thread, and that isn't an insult? Really?
> 
> The same thing goes for ComposerOfAvantgarde and BurningDesire (even though he isn't as hostile as the other two). They are ruining this forum. There seems to be a lot of intelligent members here with a lot of listening experience who want to share opinions with others but seeing these 3 with their childish threads about hate and trolling posts just make me sick.
> 
> Anyway, this seems to be a great forum and if anyone knows how I can ignore them so they can't see my posts and I can't see their please PM me.
> 
> Thank you.


I realize now that post could be misunderstood. It was a music taste card. Not an age card. CoAG used that word before to explain people who don't like new music. I didn't used to like new music. Thus, I fit that definition at one time. There are people of all ages that like new music and don't like new music. Not that it matters but my favorite Era is Baroque. I like a little of all Eras. I also ordered the complete set of Mozart's Symphonies with Pinnock. So I appreciate Mozart as well. Maybe not to the point of some around here I admit.


----------



## PlaySalieri

neoshredder said:


> I also ordered the complete set of Mozart's Symphonies with Pinnock.


That's quite an investment.


----------



## bigshot

BurningDesire said:


> It was started to quarantine the arguments and discussions on this subject that occurred in many other unrelated threads.


good luck "quarantining" discussions by spawning new threads for them. That's a tactic trolls use to spread the flaming further. I don't hink you mean to troll though. I think you are just inexperienced.


----------



## Crudblud

Trolls trolling trolls trolling trolls.


----------



## Vesteralen

I was thinking of starting "*A Thread for People Who Don't Like the Key of C*".

I wonder how long it would take before someone posted five great works in the key of C?


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

neoshredder said:


> I realize now that post could be misunderstood. It was a music taste card. Not an age card. CoAG used that word before to explain people who don't like new music. I didn't used to like new music. Thus, I fit that definition at one time. There are people of all ages that like new music and don't like new music. Not that it matters but my favorite Era is Baroque. I like a little of all Eras. I also ordered the complete set of Mozart's Symphonies with Pinnock. So I appreciate Mozart as well. Maybe not to the point of some around here I admit.


I call MaestroViolinist a dinosaur and she's younger than me. I admit dinosaur could be a derogatory term now that it has insulted some of the members, but the just to let you know I did not coin the phrase. It really goes back to a short staying member called GyorgyLigeti in his poll called "Are You A Dinosaur?" One more thing, Neo, BD and I do not have evil intentions here on TC and I have been trying to get out of this mess that I have gotten myself into.


----------



## PlaySalieri

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I call MaestroViolinist a dinosaur and she's younger than me. I admit dinosaur could be a derogatory term now that it has insulted some of the members, but the just to let you know I did not coin the phrase. It really goes back to a short staying member called GyorgyLigeti in his poll called "Are You A Dinosaur?" One more thing, Neo, BD and I do not have evil intentions here on TC and I have been trying to get out of this mess that I have gotten myself into.


What you imply is that we who lean towards mainstream music are relatively unevolved primitive listeners.


----------



## quack

stomanek said:


> What you imply is that we who lean towards mainstream music are relatively unevolved primitive listeners.


Dinosaurs of course were the most highly evolved and "fittest" for their environment, they survived millions of years, much longer than puny apes (ducks rule of course) and some dinosaurs, such as crocodiles, are still at the top of their game millions of years later. Some of them are even making electronic music.


----------



## BurningDesire

stomanek said:


> What you imply is that we who lean towards mainstream music are relatively unevolved primitive listeners.


No. He implies that you are stuck in the past. Its basically an implication of conservative tastes, that one is unwilling to accept new ideas, and therefore dislike and ignore new things without really understanding them or taking the time to understand them (needing time to understand something complex and new isn't an insult, it took me time to understand serialist music, and I grew to enjoy it from that understanding).


----------



## Vaneyes

*Public Service Announcement

View attachment 6950
*


----------



## Toddlertoddy

BurningDesire said:


> No. He implies that you are stuck in the past. Its basically an implication of conservative tastes, that one is unwilling to accept new ideas, and therefore dislike and ignore new things without really understanding them or taking the time to understand them (needing time to understand something complex and new isn't an insult, it took me time to understand serialist music, and I grew to enjoy it from that understanding).


No. He implies that you are stuck in the present. Its basically an implication of modern tastes, that one is unwilling to accept old ideas, and therefore dislike and ignore old things without really understanding them or taking the time to understand them (needing time to understand something complex and old isn't an insult, it took me time to understand Classical era music, and I grew to enjoy it from that understanding).


----------



## MaestroViolinist

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I call MaestroViolinist a dinosaur and she's younger than me.


:tiphat: Thank you, I like being a dinosaur.



> One more thing, Neo, BD and I do not have evil intentions here on TC


Are you sure?



> and I have been trying to get out of this mess that I have gotten myself into.


You're not doing a very good job.


----------



## Crudblud

Mozart
Moozart
Moofart
Moofort

MOZART IS A FORT OF MOOS

This thread is now improved in quality tenfold.


----------



## MaestroViolinist

stomanek said:


> *What you imply is* that we who lean towards mainstream music are relatively unevolved primitive listeners.





BurningDesire said:


> *No. He implies that you are* stuck in the past. Its basically an implication of conservative tastes, that one is unwilling to accept new ideas, and therefore dislike and ignore new things without really understanding them or taking the time to understand them (needing time to understand something complex and new isn't an insult, it took me time to understand serialist music, and I grew to enjoy it from that understanding).





ToddlerToddy said:


> *No. He implies that you are *stuck in the present. Its basically an implication of modern tastes, that one is unwilling to accept old ideas, and therefore dislike and ignore old things without really understanding them or taking the time to understand them (needing time to understand something complex and old isn't an insult, it took me time to understand Classical era music, and I grew to enjoy it from that understanding).


I'm sure you have all got what *he implies* wrong. Why don't you wait till he says what *he implies* since he is the only person who knows what *he implies*. At least, I hope he knows what *he implies*.

I'm sorry, was this conversation supposed to be serious? :lol:


----------



## Toddlertoddy

MaestroViolinist said:


> I'm sure you have all got what *he implies* wrong. Why don't you wait till he says what *he implies* since he is the only person who knows what *he implies*. At least, I hope he knows what *he implies*.
> 
> I'm sorry, was this conversation supposed to be serious? :lol:


My comment was mocking BD's comment, so no for me.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

MaestroViolinist said:


> I'm sure you have all got what *he implies* wrong. Why don't you wait till he says what *he implies* since he is the only person who knows what *he implies*. At least, I hope he knows what *he implies*.
> 
> I'm sorry, was this conversation supposed to be serious? :lol:


I _really_ like you right now.


----------



## moody

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I _really_ like you right now.


He knew exactly what he was doing,but is now shocked because he's always thought that everyone accepted his childish behaviour.


----------



## neoshredder

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I _really_ like you right now.


I'm not sure if you implied that. You 2 would make a good couple though.


----------



## PlaySalieri

Does it mean that literature fans who favour Shakespeare and Chaucer - and the Greek classics - over Samuel Becket - are dinosaurs of the literary world?


----------



## Crudblud

Will someone please make this thing stop?


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

stomanek said:


> Does it mean that literature fans who favour Shakespeare and Chaucer - and the Greek classics - over Samuel Becket - are dinosaurs of the literary world?


It's not about "favourite genres" it's about not continuing this debate any more. People are getting insulted and will start getting banned if we keep this going. I think I want to leave TC after all this.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Can someone close this thread?


----------



## neoshredder

Yeah not fun to debate if people take it too seriously. But we need you here CoAG!


----------



## MaestroViolinist

moody said:


> He knew exactly what he was doing,but is now shocked because he's always thought that everyone accepted his childish behaviour.


There's nothing wrong with his childish behaviour.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

MaestroViolinist said:


> There's nothing wrong with his childish behaviour.


Thanks, but I do have several character flaws, one of which is being extremely arrogant when expressing my opinions on certain things.


----------



## MaestroViolinist

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Thanks, but I do have several character flaws, one of which is being extremely arrogant when expressing my opinions on certain things.


Well at least you realise that you are arrogant.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

MaestroViolinist said:


> Well at least you realise that you are arrogant.


Most of the time I don't. That's another character flaw I have.


----------



## MaestroViolinist

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Most of the time I don't. That's another character flaw I have.


:lol: You obviously have quite a few.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

MaestroViolinist said:


> :lol: You obviously have quite a few.


I am also a hypocrite.


----------



## neoshredder

But you like good music.  We all have character flaws. No one's perfect.


----------



## MaestroViolinist

neoshredder said:


> But you like good music.  We all have character flaws. No one's perfect.


Flaws? What flaws? I don't have flaws?!


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Everyone, please remember that it was in fact Neoshredder who started all this Mozart vs. Modernism nonsense.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

MaestroViolinist said:


> Flaws? What flaws? I don't have flaws?!


Yes you do. You are a prolific procrastinator.


----------



## neoshredder

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Everyone, please remember that it was in fact Neoshredder who started all this Mozart vs. Modernism nonsense.


I started the actual thread but the fights were between BurningDesire and VSM for long before that. My thread was sort of a joke to make fun of that nonsense. Of course no one caught on and we went back into more discussion.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

neoshredder said:


> I started the actual thread but the fights were between BurningDesire and VSM for long before that. My thread was sort of a joke to make fun of that nonsense. Of course no one caught on and we went back into more discussion.


I think it's ridiculous that we constantly argue about "dinosaurs" and what music is better with the intent of insulting each other either if it's calling people stupid for not appreciating modern music or calling people stupid for not appreciating Mozart. I appreciate both, I have a modern music bias and I don't think Mozart is the greatest composer of all time.


----------



## MaestroViolinist

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Yes you do. You are a prolific procrastinator.


A _prolific_ procrastinator? What's wrong with that? At least I don't stress out.


----------



## neoshredder

Yeah I feel I got to be more careful now. It feels like the freedom to express yourself has been taken away lately. Members are getting hot with us 3 for some reason. BurningDesire I think is the one that initiated it. Even though I like some of his music taste, his opinions came out too strong. Somehow us 2 got glomped into the same category of being disrespectful whippersnappers.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

MaestroViolinist said:


> A _prolific_ procrastinator? What's wrong with that? At least I don't stress out.


Tell me again, for how many years have you been behind in your schoolwork?


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

neoshredder said:


> Yeah I feel I got to be more careful now. It feels like the freedom to express yourself has been taken away lately. Members are getting hot with us 3 for some reason. BurningDesire I think is the one that initiated it. Even though I like some of his music taste, his opinions came out too strong. Somehow us 2 got glomped into the same category of being disrespectful whippersnappers.


She does go on about how much she doesn't like Mozart sometimes. I mean, I like Mozart but I don't find him to be as great as Wagner or Schoenberg for example.


----------



## MaestroViolinist

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Tell me again, for how many years have you been behind in your schoolwork?


Grade one. Hm, that does sound rather bad hey?


----------



## PlaySalieri

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> She does go on about how much she doesn't like Mozart sometimes. I mean, I like Mozart but I don't find him to be as great as Wagner or Schoenberg for example.


Or Salieri


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

stomanek said:


> Or Salieri


I like Salieri but I haven't heard as much of his music to actually say that he is the greater composer. He's definitely underrated though.


----------



## PlaySalieri

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I like Salieri but I haven't heard as much of his music to actually say that he is the greater composer. He's definitely underrated though.


I haven't heard much either - though the fact he's been more or less ignored by posterity is not a good indicator of his merit as a composer. I liked one or two bits I heard in Amadeus - though those are just clips - even the most mediocre of talents has his moments. I was not impressed by his piano concerto at all - but you may judge for yourself.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

His two piano concerti are great, but I really like his requiem better. Danaïdes is also awesome.


----------



## PlaySalieri

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> His two piano concerti are great, but I really like his requiem better. Danaïdes is also awesome.


It surprises me you find any merit in that piano concerto. In my opinion it is devoid of any musical taste, direction, sense of form and I have not heard a more amateur piece in my experience of listening to music from the classical period. But I have the same opinion of Clementi's music (it's not quite as talentless as S and he does have great ideas - he just doesn't have a clue how to exploit them musically) and there are some who rave about him saying he is underrated. The Ligeti which I listened to - I can recognise the musical intelligence and mastery of the pieces even if I find little or no pleasure in hearing them - it's the same with Bruckner who I dislike - and many others - but Salieri, in my opinion - is just an amateur - someone who if he were around today would be coming onto this forum begging people to go to youtube and hear his compositions that he botched together on Sibelius.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

You might have misinterpreted what I said, I find pleasure listening to Salieri even though his music may not be as good as Mozart. Both piano concerti I find are nice to listen to, but we I do agree that he wasn't the best composer around at that time. Have you heard his Requiem though? The last time I heard it was over a year ago, but I was quite impressed at the time.


----------



## PlaySalieri

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> You might have misinterpreted what I said, I find pleasure listening to Salieri even though his music may not be as good as Mozart. Both piano concerti I find are nice to listen to, but we I do agree that he wasn't the best composer around at that time. Have you heard his Requiem though? The last time I heard it was over a year ago, but I was quite impressed at the time.


On the surface that piano concerto seems pleasant enough - and judging by the comments from youtubers most people seem to find it so - but it niggles at my ears when I hear, for example - flourishes stuck here and there without any proper musical justification - you must know what I am talking about if you are a composer. It doesn't happen with Mozart (or the Haydns)- even in his early pieces where he is clearly struggling for good ideas - everything seems to be in the right place, musically. 
Yes I heard some of the requiem and thought it much better. Given that Salieri taught composition to Beethoven I am just baffled by that piano concerto. Still - Mozart had the occasional off day - pc 26 for example, and no 16 - though they are at least musically sound in structure and direction - if lacking inspired invention.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

stomanek said:


> On the surface that piano concerto seems pleasant enough - and judging by the comments from youtubers most people seem to find it so - but it niggles at my ears when I hear, for example - flourishes stuck here and there without any proper musical justification - you must know what I am talking about if you are a composer. It doesn't happen with Mozart (or the Haydns)- even in his early pieces where he is clearly struggling for good ideas - everything seems to be in the right place, musically.


Well I have certain works that I don't particularly enjoy and I know what you're talking about. 


> Yes I heard some of the requiem and thought it much better. Given that Salieri taught composition to Beethoven I am just baffled by that piano concerto. Still - Mozart had the occasional off day - pc 26 for example, and no 16 - though they are at least musically sound in structure and direction - if lacking inspired invention.


I agree. I think some Salieri is not fantastic, but still worth listening to but I think there are composers of the time other than Salieri that have written some technically really good music that is overshadowed by Mozart.


----------



## PlaySalieri

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Well I have certain works that I don't particularly enjoy and I know what you're talking about.
> 
> I agree. I think some Salieri is not fantastic, but still worth listening to but I think there are composers of the time other than Salieri that have written some technically really good music that is overshadowed by Mozart.


Yes I know - and in my praise of M I never mean to imply that there is not music of great worth from the era from other composers. I just think that Salieri gets undeserved attention because the film Amadeus stirred up some unlikely interest in him as a composer - and he wasn't in the same league as CPE Bach and many others in my opinion. I believe some of Salieri's operas have now been recorded which probably would not have happened but for his dubious connection to M.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

You might not like Salieri, we both think Salieri isn't a very skilled composer, but if Pushkin never wrote Mozart and Salieri (which caused a domino effect of works on the subject leading up to Amadeus) I don't think it would have been fair to let him shrink to nothing because he is "not worthy." I also don't think it's fair to say that he's only created an interest because of Amadeus. I think his music should be explored simply because it exists, not because of some story someone made up.


----------



## moody

Crudblud said:


> Will someone please make this thing stop?


You have to take the key out and hide it!


----------



## moody

MaestroViolinist said:


> There's nothing wrong with his childish behaviour.


I suppose not if you happen to be a child.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

moody said:


> I suppose not if you happen to be a child.


She happens to be a fourteen year old girl.


----------



## moody

neoshredder said:


> Yeah I feel I got to be more careful now. It feels like the freedom to express yourself has been taken away lately. Members are getting hot with us 3 for some reason. BurningDesire I think is the one that initiated it. Even though I like some of his music taste, his opinions came out too strong. Somehow us 2 got glomped into the same category of being disrespectful whippersnappers.


Isn't he a she ?


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

moody said:


> Isn't he a she ?


She is.

.
.


----------



## PlaySalieri

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> You might not like Salieri, we both think Salieri isn't a very skilled composer, but if Pushkin never wrote Mozart and Salieri (which caused a domino effect of works on the subject leading up to Amadeus) I don't think it would have been fair to let him shrink to nothing because he is "not worthy." I also don't think it's fair to say that he's only created an interest because of Amadeus. I think his music should be explored simply because it exists, not because of some story someone made up.


Maybe - but there is probably better music out there which has so far not had a hearing.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

stomanek said:


> Maybe - but there is probably better music out there which has so far not had a hearing.


Of course. Definitely. Louise Farrenc is one of my favourite composers who did write some excellent music which _was_ technically brilliant. I would put her above Schumann any day. Are you familiar with her works?


----------



## PlaySalieri

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Of course. Definitely. Louise Farrenc is one of my favourite composers who did write some excellent music which _was_ technically brilliant. I would put her above Schumann any day. Are you familiar with her works?


Do you have a link - I want to check out your idea of technically brilliant music.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

stomanek said:


> Do you have a link - I want to check out your idea of technically brilliant music.


Here, this is one of my favourite symphonies:






Well it may not show counterpoint as good as Bach or Schoenberg, but I would say that Farrenc is one composer who I really like who has written music that I would put above some of the most famous composers of the Romantic era. What do you think of the symphony that I posted?


----------



## Taneyev

I've by Farrenc two piano quintets ( violin, viola, cello and bass), op.30 and 31. Really lovely works.


----------



## PlaySalieri

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Here, this is one of my favourite symphonies:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well it may not show counterpoint as good as Bach or Schoenberg, but I would say that Farrenc is one composer who I really like who has written music that I would put above some of the most famous composers of the Romantic era. What do you think of the symphony that I posted?


I am listening to the first movement - not bad, she obviously learned well from her famous predecessors and contemporaries.


----------



## moody

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> She happens to be a fourteen year old girl.


I was aware of that .where's the other one disapeared to?


----------



## StlukesguildOhio

I started the actual thread but the fights were between BurningDesire and VSM for long before that. My thread was sort of a joke to make fun of that nonsense.

But you also started the "Most Boring Era" thread. Surely not at all intended to provoke.


----------



## Guest

Forgive and forget folks. Some lessons have been learned by all concerned and the atmosphere is returning to normal.

These forums work best when we can politely share our knowledge and enthusiasms while being respectful of others' opinions, no matter how immature or ossified they may be.


----------



## BurningDesire

neoshredder said:


> Yeah I feel I got to be more careful now. It feels like the freedom to express yourself has been taken away lately. Members are getting hot with us 3 for some reason. BurningDesire I think is the one that initiated it. Even though I like some of his music taste, his opinions came out too strong. Somehow us 2 got glomped into the same category of being disrespectful whippersnappers.


I love my new home under this bus. Keeps the rain off of my head.


----------



## bigshot

We passed my bus stop, but I don't care. I'm having so much fun with all of you on the bus, I may just ride around all day!


----------



## BurningDesire

bigshot said:


> We passed my bus stop, but I don't care. I'm having so much fun with all of you on the bus, I may just ride around all day!


just don't rock the bus. I like my shade.


----------



## bigshot

Let's get off at the Hagenauer House at 9 Getreidegasse in Saltzberg!


----------



## moody

neoshredder said:


> Yeah I feel I got to be more careful now. It feels like the freedom to express yourself has been taken away lately. Members are getting hot with us 3 for some reason. BurningDesire I think is the one that initiated it. Even though I like some of his music taste, his opinions came out too strong. Somehow us 2 got glomped into the same category of being disrespectful whippersnappers.


This is somewhat nauseous, if you felt that BD was coming out too strong why didn't you say so? Particularly as I have discovered that you are not a teen neither are you a whippersnapper.
In fact you are 29 or 30 so probably you were the senior person, not to mention that you have placed over 1000 posts.
Of course being a dinosaur I was taught to stand by my friends and never to rat them out.
You will have to be more careful about whose bandwagon you join in future.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

moody said:


> This is somewhat nauseous, if you felt that BD was coming out too strong why didn't you say so? Particularly as I have discovered that you are not a teen neither are you a whippersnapper.
> In fact you are 29 or 30 so probably you were the senior person, not to mention that you have placed over 1000 posts.
> Of course being a dinosaur I was taught to stand by my friends and never to rat them out.
> You will have to be more careful about whose bandwagon you join in future.


But he _looks_ 19.


----------



## neoshredder

moody said:


> This is somewhat nauseous, if you felt that BD was coming out too strong why didn't you say so? Particularly as I have discovered that you are not a teen neither are you a whippersnapper.
> In fact you are 29 or 30 so probably you were the senior person, not to mention that you have placed over 1000 posts.
> Of course being a dinosaur I was taught to stand by my friends and never to rat them out.
> You will have to be more careful about whose bandwagon you join in future.


I try not to bandwagon anyone and be my own person.


----------



## Crudblud

I don't know what's more ridiculous, the argument or the fallout.


----------



## Mun

I personally love Mozart, I mean it's a shame people would make a thread specifically aimed at not liking Mozart. I mean most of the greatest composers in history have absolutely adored Mozart's compositions and would probably kill you (not literally of course) for making this thread.

It's funny that the original poster would ask people to avoid having arguments on here but intentionally post a thread knowing that it would offend a lot of people.

The best way of expressing your dislike for his music would've been "I personally don't enjoy his music and do prefer other classical composers." instead of arrogantly making a whole thread dedicated to not liking him.


----------



## Toddlertoddy

Mun said:


> I personally love Mozart, I mean it's a shame people would make a thread specifically aimed at not liking Mozart. I mean most of the greatest composers in history have absolutely adored Mozart's compositions and would probably kill you (not literally of course) for making this thread.
> 
> It's funny that the original poster would ask people to avoid having arguments on here but intentionally post a thread knowing that it would offend a lot of people.
> 
> The best way of expressing your dislike for his music would've been "I personally don't enjoy his music and do prefer other classical composers." instead of arrogantly making a whole thread dedicated to not liking him.


Idk if you've read the whole thing, but we've gotten past the last part of your post.


----------



## Mun

Toddlertoddy said:


> Idk if you've read the whole thing, but we've gotten past the last part of your post.


I assumed so, but I wasn't enthusiastic enough to read all the posts through 12 pages so I added it just in case. Sorry about that, but we can discusse the first two partts of my posts since they seem to be the most relevant considering what you just said in your reply.


----------



## BurningDesire

*triiiiiillllllllllllllll* duheeuheeuheeuheeuheeuhhhhh bum bee bum.

okay, the thread is finished, with Mozart's favorite little trill cadence. Mods, do your job and lock the thread that nobody likes, please.


----------



## Ramako

BurningDesire said:


> okay, the thread is finished, with Mozart's favorite little trill cadence. Mods, do your job and lock the thread that nobody likes, please.


I second that!


----------



## aleazk

BurningDesire said:


> *triiiiiillllllllllllllll* duheeuheeuheeuheeuheeuhhhhh bum bee bum.
> 
> okay, the thread is finished, with Mozart's favorite little trill cadence.


What a great end!


----------



## Rapide

Real classical music lovers will never trivialise Mozart's music to the extent this thread has don.


----------



## BurningDesire

Yo mods? You there? *whistles* I guess it was a deceptive cadence after all. Still don't see this thread locked. I'm not the only one asked for it to be locked. *taps foot*


----------



## aleazk

BurningDesire said:


> Yo mods? You there? *whistles* I guess it was a deceptive cadence after all.


Maybe is like one of these symphonies of the romantic period, where you have various 'tentative' ends in the finale. :lol:


----------



## BurningDesire

*whistles the Jeopardy theme*


----------



## neoshredder

They don't need to lock the thread. Just stop posting in this thread. Unfortunately, I had to bump the thread to say this.


----------



## Toddlertoddy

neoshredder said:


> They don't need to lock the thread. Just stop posting in this thread. Unfortunately, I had to bump the thread to say this.


But then some unsuspecting new member decides to look through old threads and revive it just to have the same comments and arguments repeated.


----------



## Guest

I've kind of been involved in the "Mozart wars" insofar as there are particular pieces which I just don't handle and I also don't think they qualify as masterworks, eg. many of the piano concerti. BUT I do appreciate that lots of people love this music and I'm more than happy to be associated with people who love serious music, no matter what it is. In short, I think this thread is provocative and I cannot really see the point!!


----------



## Very Senior Member

I'm not aware that moderators normally lock threads of this nature at the behest of a few members who may find the contents to be embarrassing reminders of the notions they once entertained, or more likely still do entertain but can't see any mileage in promoting any further at this stage. They usually lock them only if members become abusive of each other, or if discussion has wandered too far away from the original topic 

Nor is there is sound reason in locking this thread in the hope that it will prevent future unsuspecting new members who may dislike Mozart from raising the same issues afresh. On the contrary, it could be argued that this thread ought to be "stickied" in the hope of corraling any future similar bilge-talk about Mozart.

It may also be of interest that this thread is by no means the first thread of its kind where discussion about Mozart's music has been discussed in an openly provocative negative manner by its originators. Some of the discussion in the thread "Mozart: God or Garbage" was far worse in this regard, and that thread is still open.

Nor is it appear reasonable to assume that any of the present members who think that Mozart is over-rated are particularly out of line with several previous members who took a similar line. I won't mention names but one quite prominent individual used to bash Mozart regularly, and appeared to believe that the normal popularity polls about composers were all giving the wrong result in suggesting that Mozart is generally highly regarded, and that the truth is most classical afficionados actually think he is over-rated if only the correct sampling procedures were used to test opinion. Another member used to discuss Mozart's work regularly in an unpleasant manner using lavatorial connotations.


----------



## HarpsichordConcerto

Wolfgang Amadues Mozart will forever be one of the very greatest of all composers who ever walked this planet. As for those less fortunate who dislike his music, it is simply their loss.

Now, this garbage thread may be locked and the keys thrown away.


----------



## Carpenoctem

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Wolfgang Amadues Mozart will forever be one of the very greatest of all composers who ever walked this planet. As for those less fortunate who dislike his music, it is simply their loss.
> 
> Now, this garbage thread may be locked and the keys thrown away.


Listen to this man, he speaks the truth.


----------



## PlaySalieri

Yes let us move on this is pointless - there are people who don't like Shakespeare, Dickens, Chaucer ...


----------



## bigshot

I figure if everyone else can't resist posting again and again to keep this thread on the top of the forum, then neither can I.


----------



## BurningDesire

Yay for totally mature and necessary posts


----------



## Guest

Very Senior Member you make a lot of sense. Thing is, Mozart is "over-rated" by the 'big boys' - Bernstein, Solomon, Brendel, Ashkenazy (the list is long!)!! In the end, it's just simply a matter of what turns us on. 26 years ago I adored Mozart, especially after the film "Amadeus" and listened to his music all the time. I loved the film and moved away from my first love, Beethoven, to listen more to WAM. Sure enough, time has brought me inevitably back to my first love (LvB) and I find Mozart just doesn't cut it for me these days. Again, I say plenty of people DO love it and that's fine - I remember my own passion all those years ago. Whatever floats your boat, as we say in our country!


----------



## PlaySalieri

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> Very Senior Member you make a lot of sense. Thing is, Mozart is "over-rated" by the 'big boys' - Bernstein, Solomon, Brendel, Ashkenazy (the list is long!)!!


Those are not really big boys, try: Haydn, Schubert, Beethoven, Brahms, Wagner, R Strauss, Mahler, Britten, Schoenberg etc plus all the major conductors.


----------



## bigshot

Believe it or not, I've never seen the film Amadeus. My frame of reference is 100% the music. It doesn't strike me as trivial at all. Today, I listened to Symphony 40 off the Harmonia Mundi Lumieres box and was blown away all over again for the umpteenth time. The horn concertos give me the shivers too.

I get the impression that the movie depicts Mozart as goofy and ineffectual. His music sure isn't that way!


----------



## BurningDesire

bigshot said:


> Believe it or not, I've never seen the film Amadeus. My frame of reference is 100% the music. It doesn't strike me as trivial at all. Today, I listened to Symphony 40 off the Harmonia Mundi Lumieres box and was blown away all over again for the umpteenth time. The horn concertos give me the shivers too.
> 
> I get the impression that the movie depicts Mozart as goofy and ineffectual. His music sure isn't that way!


Actually no, it portrays him in a very human way. I thought the portrayal was very charming.


----------



## SottoVoce

bigshot said:


> Believe it or not, I've never seen the film Amadeus. My frame of reference is 100% the music. It doesn't strike me as trivial at all. Today, I listened to Symphony 40 off the Harmonia Mundi Lumieres box and was blown away all over again for the umpteenth time. The horn concertos give me the shivers too.
> 
> I get the impression that the movie depicts Mozart as goofy and ineffectual. His music sure isn't that way!


From Bernstein:



> It is hard to think of another composer who so perfectly marries form and passion.
> 
> Mozart combines serenity, melancholy, and tragic intensity into one great lyric improvisation. Over it all hovers the greater spirit that is Mozart's - the spirit of compassion, of universal love, even of suffering - a spirit that knows no age, that belongs to all ages.
> Mozart's music is constantly escaping from its frame, because it cannot be contained in it.


When has Brendel ever called Mozart overrated? I highly doubt it. Plus, never get a pianists' opinion of Mozart; his piano sonatas are hardly his most accomplished work, and his piano concertos are quite hard to fully appreciate.


----------



## bigshot

Mozart's Piano Concertos are among the most incredible achievements in the entire history of classical music.


----------



## neoshredder

How about a thread for those that don't like 'don't like' threads.


----------



## bigshot

How about what we do like.


----------



## StlukesguildOhio

It's still ALIVE!!!!!


----------



## Kevin Pearson

This thread will live as long as Mozart's music! 

Kevin


----------



## clavichorder

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I like Salieri but I haven't heard as much of his music to actually say that he is the greater composer. He's definitely underrated though.


Salieri really isn't very good, lots of far better obscure classicists, like Henri Jospeh Rigel and Leopold Kozeluch. Mozart is brilliant, perhaps the greatest composer who ever lived.


----------



## neoshredder

Definitely top 3. Hard to say who is best between Mozart, Bach, and Beethoven. There is a reason why they are by far the most popular Composers. It's always nice to branch out to different Eras (or even Contemporaries of them) but none have surpassed those 3.


----------



## neoshredder

With that said, I prefer CPE Bach's style more. I'm not going to declare him better. Especially since he has way less works.


----------



## Guest

stomanek said:


> Those are not really big boys, try: Haydn, Schubert, Beethoven, Brahms, Wagner, R Strauss, Mahler, Britten, Schoenberg etc plus all the major conductors.


I was really referring to musicians from the 20th century to today and, of course, there are loads of conductors as you rightly mention!!


----------



## Guest

SottoVoce said:


> From Bernstein:
> 
> When has Brendel ever called Mozart overrated? I highly doubt it. Plus, never get a pianists' opinion of Mozart; his piano sonatas are hardly his most accomplished work, and his piano concertos are quite hard to fully appreciate.


I'm sorry - I misled you. I was being ironic when I said over-rated and deliberately put the words in inverted commas because these people ACTUALLY praised Mozart, therefore contributing to what some people see as him being 'over rated'. I'm not a big fan of WAM, as I said before, but I acknowledge those who are!!


----------



## SottoVoce

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> I'm sorry - I misled you. I was being ironic when I said over-rated and deliberately put the words in inverted commas because these people ACTUALLY praised Mozart, therefore contributing to what some people see as him being 'over rated'. I'm not a big fan of WAM, as I said before, but I acknowledge those who are!!


Oh, sorry for my misunderstanding, should've seen that one coming haha.


----------



## PlaySalieri

SottoVoce said:


> From Bernstein:
> 
> When has Brendel ever called Mozart overrated? I highly doubt it. Plus, never get a pianists' opinion of Mozart; his piano sonatas are hardly his most accomplished work, and his piano concertos are quite hard to fully appreciate.


There are one or two of the sonatas which are the equal of anything he wrote I think - like K457 - which really points forward to Beethoven. One or two of the fantasies too - like K475. Many more of the sonatas I find quite seductive - K331 - I could go on. I think the piano concertos are well appreciated by public and experts alike. I don't accept any of Beethoven's concertos as being batter than Mozart's best - and Beethoven himself wrote his C minor as a homage to Mozart's C minor. Of course if you like soaring romantic melodies accompanied by the pianist building up a sweat and really showing what he is made of (like Rachmaninov) - then Mozart's delicate compositions will seem quite primitive - and I think maybe that is what you mean.


----------



## Ramako

neoshredder said:


> Definitely top 3. Hard to say who is best between Mozart, Bach, and Beethoven. There is a reason why they are by far the most popular Composers.


Chopin comes a closer fourth than some people like to admit - at least in popularity. He's rarely first on people's lists, but he's often second. Although here on TC he doesn't seem to have much of a fanbase. Problem is he never wrote anything not for the piano, so he's often passed over...


----------



## presto

Sid James said:


> they had to do hackwork and boring bread-and-butter type things sometimes to survive,


I don't think Mozart could write anything mundane even if he tried. 
Anyone listened to the countless sets of country dances, minuets and marches he composed to just make money, even they are utterly charming and full of unexpected turns of phrase and orchestration.


----------



## clavichorder

neoshredder said:


> With that said, I prefer CPE Bach's style more. I'm not going to declare him better. Especially since he has way less works.


CPE has plenty of works actually, but I agree, I like him better, but won't say he's better.


----------



## PlaySalieri

clavichorder said:


> CPE has plenty of works actually, but I agree, I like him better, but won't say he's better.


He was a fine composer and I like him too, as I do JC Bach - but neither have anywhere near the range of expression and styles as M and are not remotely in the same league - they certainly do not have anything like the recognition that Mozart has earned in the world of music.

Still - if you prefer him to M I have no issue with that - I know people who prefer Salieri.


----------



## neoshredder

stomanek said:


> He was a fine composer and I like him too, as I do JC Bach - but neither have anywhere near the range of expression and styles as M and are not remotely in the same league - they certainly do not have anything like the recognition that Mozart has earned in the world of music.
> 
> Still - if you prefer him to M I have no issue with that - I know people who prefer Salieri.


Have you heard the Symphonies on this CD? Yes I admit the rest of his output doesn't compare to his 'Sturm und drang' phase.


----------



## neoshredder

clavichorder said:


> CPE has plenty of works actually, but I agree, I like him better, but won't say he's better.


I shoulld've said plenty of works at the highest level. Nothing is at the same level of wq.183.


----------



## PlaySalieri

neoshredder said:


> I shoulld've said plenty of works at the highest level. Nothing is at the same level of wq.183.


I listened to 1 movement:






Maybe i could have listened to something better - if i didn't know mozart and all and someone gave me his sy no 26 to listen to I would not be impressed so CPE Bach may have something that beats the Prague or the Jupiter - but on the basis of that symphony I very much doubt it. But I would put that CPE Bach movement on the level of Mozart's 26th symphony, or better possible than any of his first 20 symphonies or so - but certainly not near the level of the great works (ie the last 5 symphonies). It is very commendable of listeners to give a hearing to obscure pieces - I would i had more time.
so far - from all the raving on this board about Clementi, Salieri and many other minor figures I have explored the only one who I did not know but would come back to is Hummel and perhaps Michael Haydn..


----------



## neoshredder

Here is probably my favorite though all 4 were really good.


----------



## PlaySalieri

neoshredder said:


> Here is probably my favorite though all 4 were really good.


I listened to the whole thing - certainly it is a beautiful period performance. I liked the symphony - with the last movement you could easily trick me into thinking it was young Mozart. I realise it is not correct to compare a relatively conventional composition like that symphony with something like the Prague - or G Minor Mozart (no 40) so decided to listen to sy 26 - as I have not heard it in a long time. Could not find the Pinnock verison so had to settle for:






It's a better symphony than I remember - the last movement has a certain exuberant joy about it which I associate uniquely with Mozart (last mvt of pc no 23 has the same quality).


----------



## neoshredder

2 different styles imo. CPE Bach's Symphony is more herky jerky. He reminds me more of Haydn than Mozart though. Haydn's 'Sturm und drang' phase would be the closest to that Symphony. And Mozart's late Symphonies would probably be best compared with early Beethoven Symphonies or Late Haydn Symphonies. Which he arguably wins in that style. Music got more complicated as it got closer to the Romantic Era. Sometimes I prefer the shorter pieces.


----------



## SixFootScowl

I have no desire to listen to Mozart. Here is a blog with quotes of people who dislike Mozart, including that Maria Callas once said, "most of Mozart's music is dull."


----------



## trazom

Florestan said:


> I have no desire to listen to Mozart. Here is a blog with quotes of people who dislike Mozart, including that Maria Callas once said, "most of Mozart's music is dull."


Well, thank you for sharing that blurb written 9 years ago, but I'm not sure why anyone should care? Apparently, the author was so stupid he included a quote by someone who actually _loves_ Mozart, Alex Ross, who was making a point that overexposure would, in irony, produce ignorant blogs like the one just posted. :lol:


----------



## PlaySalieri

Florestan said:


> I have no desire to listen to Mozart. Here is a blog with quotes of people who dislike Mozart, including that Maria Callas once said, "most of Mozart's music is dull."


That's not an impressive list of mozart haters? Callas, Gould and Delius and that's about your lot.

check this out

http://mozartsmusic.blogspot.co.uk/2011/08/some-quotes-about-mozart.html

there is a much fuller list of quotes of great composers paying homage to mozart somewhere - on wikipedia I think


----------



## SixFootScowl

My main point is that I have no desire to listen to Mozart. The link simply shows some others who were apparently not impressed. Not trying to show that a majority did not like Mozart and I suspect the majority do like him. So no matter to me. My view of Mozart is similar to Beethoven's, some great music, some morally bad plots to set music to. I might listen to Mozart if there was nothing else to listen to. 

Besides that, it is a thread for people who don't like Mozart. Not like I posted this in a pro-Mozart thread.


----------



## trazom

Florestan said:


> My main point is that I have no desire to listen to Mozart. The link simply shows some others who were apparently not impressed.


And my main point was: So? Don't listen to it, then. I don't have any desire to listen to Fidelio, but I don't bump threads about it posting decade-old blogs written by people who know less about the subject than I do.

Here's an article by Alex Ross, the author of _The Rest is Noise_, who was apparently so 'unimpressed' by Mozart, according to the previous blogger, that he set out to listen to Mozart's entire catalogue of works and came up with this response:

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2006/07/24/the-storm-of-style


----------



## Balthazar

..............................


----------



## PlaySalieri

trazom said:


> And my main point was: So? Don't listen to it, then. I don't have any desire to listen to Fidelio, but I don't bump threads about it posting decade-old blogs written by people who know less about the subject than I do.
> 
> Here's an article by Alex Ross, the author of _The Rest is Noise_, who was apparently so 'unimpressed' by Mozart, according to the previous blogger, that he set out to listen to Mozart's entire catalogue of works and came up with this response:
> 
> http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2006/07/24/the-storm-of-style


whew - that is quite an article


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## KenOC

trazom said:


> Here's an article by Alex Ross, the author of _The Rest is Noise_, who was apparently so 'unimpressed' by Mozart, according to the previous blogger, that he set out to listen to Mozart's entire catalogue of works and came up with this response:
> 
> http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2006/07/24/the-storm-of-style


Many thanks! A fascinating article with a lot of interesting ideas. I hope others take the time to read it.


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## Mahlerian

trazom said:


> Well, thank you for sharing that blurb written 9 years ago, but I'm not sure why anyone should care? Apparently, the author was so stupid he included a quote by someone who actually _loves_ Mozart, Alex Ross, who was making a point that overexposure would, in irony, produce ignorant blogs like the one just posted. :lol:


On top of which...this sentence:


Ignoramus said:


> There's certainly lots of other *tuneful and inoffensive* classical music out there to listen to… why isn't there an obsessive cult of personality surrounding Rameau, Haydn, Handel, *Debussy*, Ravel, or *Brahms*?


Mozart isn't the only composer he has problems understanding on the most basic level...


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## Albert7

An opera about hating your Mozart is crashing through your town.


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## SixFootScowl

trazom said:


> And my main point was: So? Don't listen to it, then.


I don't listen to it, but nothing wrong with noting that in a thread that is purposefully for people who don't like Mozart. It may be that people who like Mozart are in the wrong place in this thread.


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## Albert7

Florestan said:


> I don't listen to it, but nothing wrong with noting that in a thread that is purposefully for people who don't like Mozart. It may be that people who like Mozart are in the wrong place in this thread.


This is a prank thread and I am afraid that too many people are here taking this way too seriously.


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## Lord Lance

stomanek said:


> Yes let us move on this is pointless - there are people who don't like Shakespeare, Dickens, Chaucer ...


What grave sin have we idiots committed by not having the intellectual prowess to understand the wit and power of the writings of these so-called legends whose literature is seemingly immortal?


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