# Lost/Destroyed Works You Wish We had?



## Bevo (Feb 22, 2015)

If you could choose up to 5 lost/destroyed works by any composer that we KNOW we're written at some point, and you could find/revive them, which would they be? Also knowing if a spurious work is authentic or not is another option. I mean like how we have Mozart's Sinfonia Concertante for Winds, but it's authenticity is questionable. Some works I'd love to hear would be Haydn's Bass Concerto, Mozart's Trumpet Concerto, and Mozart's Cello Concerto. What would be your's though?


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Sibelius Eighth Symphony


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## insomniclassicac (Jan 15, 2018)

Alkan: Symphony for Orchestra (not to be confused with his Symphony for Solo Piano, Op. 39, Nos. 4-7), String Sextet & String Quintet


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

All the stuff Brahms destroyed, if only for their historical value. 

More juvenilia by just about all composers - my guess is lots of them wrote quite a bit of music in their youth and didn't bother to keep it. Once again, such works may be of historical value, if not necessarily great work in itself.

In similar vein, works by amateur composers who never published their work. It might be fascinating to hear, say, piano pieces by contemporaries of Beethoven or Wagner who composed as hobby; among these may well be lots and lots of women whose main job was to serve as ornaments to their husbands, and who may in fact have been very talented, but whose talents were never taken seriously by anyone, including themselves.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

“Beethoven? Beethoven? Oh yes, Ludwig. I remember him. Always stomping around he was, cursing, making a scene. But a good composer. He wrote a cello concerto that would have brought the house down! But he lost the score on a coach ride, never followed up on it. Too busy with those odd piano sonatas, strange stuff like that. Too bad, I’ve always thought…”


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## R3PL4Y (Jan 21, 2016)

Villa Lobos wrote 14 choros, but 13 and 14 were both lost. I would like to hear those, as based on his descriptions of him, they sound very interesting.


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## MusicSybarite (Aug 17, 2017)

Talking about Villa-Lobos, I wish I had the 5th Symphony _A Paz_, which is lost.

Also, the Madetoja's 4th symphony, which was lost in a train station.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

The original version of Prokofiev's Second Piano Concerto.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Varese's lost works - what else


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

KenOC said:


> "Beethoven? Beethoven? Oh yes, Ludwig. I remember him. Always stomping around he was, cursing, making a scene. But a good composer. He wrote a cello concerto that would have brought the house down! But he lost the score on a coach ride, never followed up on it. Too busy with those odd piano sonatas, strange stuff like that. Too bad, I've always thought…"


"Oh, that piece? Yeah, well, Schindler eventually found the thing at the coach company's lost-and-found. Turned out it was just a cello transcription of the violin concerto. Dang..."


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

Heinrich Schütz' lost dramatic works are on my list: 'Die Dafne', long regarded as the first German opera, 'Orpheus und Eurydike' and 'Paris und Helena'.


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

I do believe that Wilhelm Friedemann Bach is responsible for losing dad's St. Luke and St. Mark Passions.


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

I may be one of the few people alive who owns recorded copies of works by composer Marc Gaspard (1954-2010). I have often wondered if I should post them on utube. As of right now, his entire copious output is virtually unknown and the whereabouts of his manuscripts is a mystery.


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## manyene (Feb 7, 2015)

All those Monteverdi operas


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

*Paul Dukas*, who in a sense represents a great might have been in the history of music had he not destroyed much (or a majority) of his works and allowing only about a dozen to survive. This fine composer may not be considered great by most, but the potential for greatness was there judging by his only symphony, his opera "Ariane et Barbe-bleue", his sonata, La Peri. How unfortunate that his output seems smaller than it actually was, for those gems that do survive point to quite an emerging giant in French music who did not quite reach the pinnacle as did, say, Ravel, Debussy, Poulenc.

~_from wikipedia (below)
_
*Early unpublished works*


_Air de Clytemnestre_, for voice and small orchestra (1882)
_Goetz de Berlichingen_, overture for orchestra (1883)
_Le roi Lear_, for orchestra (1883)
_Chanson de Barberine_, for soprano and orchestra (1884)
_La fête des Myrthes_, for choir and orchestra (1884)
_L'ondine et le pêcheur_, for soprano and orchestra (1884)
_Endymion_, cantata for three solo voices and orchestra (1885)
_Introduction au poème "Les Caresses"_, for piano (1885)
_La vision de Saül_, cantata for three solo voices and orchestra (1886)
_La fleur_, for choir and orchestra (1887)
Fugue (1888)
_Hymne au soleil_, for choir and orchestra (1888)
_Velléda_, cantata for three solo voices and orchestra (1888)
_Sémélé_, cantata for three solo voices and orchestra (1889)
*Destroyed and projected works*


_Horn et Riemenhild_, opera (1892)
_L'arbre de science_, opera (1899)
_Le fil de parque_, symphonic poem (c.1908)
_Le nouveau monde_, opera (c.1908-1910)
_Le sang de Méduse_, ballet (1912)
Symphony No. 2 (after 1912)
Violin Sonata (after 1912)
_La tempête_, opera (c.1918)
_Variations choréographiques_, ballet (1930)
An untitled orchestral work for Boston Symphonic Orchestra (1932)


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

John Dunstaple's manuscripts were destroyed during the English Reformation, and his music is known only by copies found in other countries. And, as most flute players know, a large section of Bach's A major flute sonata BWV 1032 was lost because Bach (or the copyist of the only known manuscript) fit some of the sonata into the bottom of pages otherwise occupied with the score for another sonata. At some point the two sonatas were separated and pages cut, but some of the paper with BWV 1032 was lost, no doubt inadvertently.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Back in 1921 Paul Hindemith composed the intriguingly-titled work _Das atonale Cabaret_ which consisted of nine pieces for voices and small orchestra. It was never assigned an opus number so maybe it wasn't even published, let alone performed. It's possible that Hindemith recycled some of the material into other works but sadly the original disappeared without trace which is a pity as during that time Hindemith was beginning to come into his own with some of his spikiest material.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

There is a legend in the classical guitar community of guitar music written by Beethoven. Beethoven was friends with guitar composer Mauro Giuliani. Giuliani even played cello in the orchestra for the premier of the 7th symphony. There is a set of rondos written for piano and guitar by Giuliani, and the 2nd one really is not like anything Giuliani wrote. I'm performing this set of rondos in February, and there are people who hear Beethoven's hand in his friend's piano writing.

anyway....I have heard the legend that Beethoven actually wrote a piece for his friend Mauro to play on the guitar

the piece has never been found, and if it ever existed, its certainly gone now

so that's the one I'd like: the lost guitar work by Ludwig von Beethoven


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Nate Miller said:


> so that's the one I'd like: the lost guitar work by Ludwig von Beethoven


I believe Led Zeppelin later ripped it off and it became 'Kashmir.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Johan Svendsen´s third symphony that his angry wife threw into the fire place.


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## Josquin13 (Nov 7, 2017)

The very first Requiem was composed by the Burgundian composer, Guillaume Dufay. However, it's been lost, so Johannes Ockeghem gets the credit instead. I hope that one day Dufay's Requiem will resurface. I think it's possible it will turn up.

Next, I hope that one day the rest of J.S. Bach's Cantata BWV 50 fragment will be found. It's very rare, if not singular for Bach to use a double choir in a cantata, as in BWV 50. This fragment interested Brahms so much that he had it copied and performed it in 1873. It would be incredibly exciting to find that it is indeed part of a larger Michaelmas Cantata, or better yet, that it is part of a larger "Michaelmas Oratorio" by Bach, for double choir. Considering how inspired Bach was when he composed his Michaelmas Cantatas, which I consider among his finest choral works, a "Michaelmas Oratorio" would be something very special.






https://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Mot...17340911&sr=1-1&keywords=Gardiner+bach+bwv+50

By the way, when John Eliot Gardiner performed his Bach pilgrimage concerts, he was so looking forward to conducting Bach's Michaelmas Cantatas that he penciled them in red on his calendar. I'm not surprised, as they're all masterpieces, especially the mind blowing opening fugal movement of BWV 19.

https://www.amazon.com/Bach-J-S-Can...&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=Gardiner+bach+bwv+50

However, my favorite recordings of Bach's Michaelmas Cantatas have come from Montreal Baroque, led by the American Eric Milnes (who unfortunately chose not to record the BWV 50 fragment):

https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Cantate...F8&qid=1517342496&sr=1-8&keywords=milnes+bach

Like others, I hope the Sibelius' 8th Symphony didn't end up in the fireplace at Ainola, as rumored. His 7th is one of my favorite symphonies, and doesn't show any diminishment in Sibelius' composing powers, so an 8th would be incredibly special.

The following don't quite count as "lost works", but there are a number of 'unfinished' works that I wish had been completed:

Puccini Turandot
Mozart Requiem
Bach The Art of the Fugue
Chausson--the final movement of his String Quartet, which Chausson was working on the day that he took his ill-fated bicycle ride. I don't overly care for how his student D'Indy finished the work, but at least he completed it.
Mahler 10th Symphony
Bruckner 9th Symphony

There's also a unfinished fragment to a mass by William Byrd that I recall is incredibly beautiful. Long ago, I heard the Hilliard Ensemble perform it, but off the top of my head, I can't remember its name. It may have been part of the Hilliard's 2 CD Byrd set originally released by EMI.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

La jeunesse de Goethe, by Meyerbeer. Apparently an innovative approach to combining music and drama. Composed and completed towards the end of his life, but the score disappeared.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Alberic Magnard's Yolande, lost along with other works, on 3rd September 1914.

I trust Guy Ropartz and his resurrection of Guercoeur.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Another work that I felt should be mentioned is Penderecki's Sixth Symphony, the absence of which seems to have achieved cult status. But I understand that it was finally completed and premiered out in China late last year. 

I hope Antoni Wit will get round to recording it soon. I hate gaps in my collection!


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## manyene (Feb 7, 2015)

As a commentary on this discussion: I think it shows how physically fragile composed music is before it is finally published. As a historian, I'm constantly amazed at what has survived, published as well as unpublished, despite the legacy of human conflict and inclement weather. A good reason to celebrate what we have, though it will not stop this speculating on what we could have had, if the stars had been a little more auspicious.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

manyene said:


> As a commentary on this discussion: I think it shows how physically fragile composed music is before it is finally published. As a historian, I'm constantly amazed at what has survived, published as well as unpublished, despite the legacy of human conflict and inclement weather. A good reason to celebrate what we have, though it will not stop this speculating on what we could have had, if the stars had been a little more auspicious.


'

I don't know if you are familiar with the story behind the Bach Cello suites, but they were largely unknown for 200 years until Pablo Casals found a manuscript in a back room of a shop in his home town. Before he performed them, the few people who did know of them regarded them as exercises, not actual concert pieces. So it wasn't until the 1920s that the cello suits were known to the world in the way we know them today

so there are a lot of things that can keep music from surviving through the generations. Sometimes music just doesn't get played, or falls out of fashion. We are pretty lucky to have what we have


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Russian composer Alexei Stanchinsky composed some brilliant music but died very young (age 26). Apparently he had mental stability issues and could destroy his own music in rage. So I don't know what was lost, but I would've loved to hear more from this composer.

Then there's Nikolai Roslavets. Very interesting composer. All the works listed as lost in the article below. It's nice to see there are still works "in preparation".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Roslavets


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

Beethoven wrote an oboe concerto, of which the second movement is reconstructable but the first and last movements survive only as incipits.

See http://unheardbeethoven.org/search.php?Identifier=hess12-2 which includes a link to a YouTube video of a live performance of Willem Holsbergen's reconstruction of the second movement.

There's also a violin sonata in A by Beethoven of which a few pages in fair copy (a good indication that it was completed) of two movements (which may be all it ever had) survive, catalogued as Hess 46.

See http://unheardbeethoven.org/search.php?Identifier=hess46 for Willem's conjectural completion and also violinist Rachel Barton Pine playing the surviving fragments.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Another work I'd like to add to the "wish it had been finished" list is Borodin's Third Symphony. The second of the two Glazunov movements is a fabulous one!

There's precious little Borodin out there (lots of Chemistry papers and articles, I believe!) so the more the better.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

What about just found, like Hip-Hop Debussy or should this be filed under Destroyed


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## golfer72 (Jan 27, 2018)

*Moerans 2nd Symphony*

I believe he left sketches for a 2nd symphony when he died. That would have been great to have been finished.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

gardibolt said:


> Beethoven wrote an oboe concerto, of which the second movement is reconstructable but the first and last movements survive only as incipits.
> 
> See http://unheardbeethoven.org/search.php?Identifier=hess12-2 which includes a link to a YouTube video of a live performance of Willem Holsbergen's reconstruction of the second movement.


That's rather lovely. What a pity the rest is lost. I am quite fond of Beethoven's first period works. Like early Van Gogh, it's not what he ended up becoming famous for, but there are lots of masterpieces in there.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

golfer72 said:


> I believe he left sketches for a 2nd symphony when he died. That would have been great to have been finished.


Completed by Yates (for better or worse) and available on CD.


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## laurie (Jan 12, 2017)

Art Rock said:


> Completed by Yates (for better or worse) and available on CD.


And what do you think of it, Art Rock ?


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## Neward Thelman (Apr 6, 2017)

The finale of the Bruckner Ninth.

Bruckner had actually written out all of it almost right up to the end. The only missing part was the coda. Of course, it was in first draft, raw, and unedited form. Had the composer not died, he would've had time to polish it and bring it up to his usual standard. It's what pretty much most writers, composers, artists, etc. do [even some internet post writers] - work over the first draft until it's a finished product.

Unfortunately for posterity, Bruckner's so-called disciples - the Schalks and others - swooped into the dead man's apartment, and proceeded to give away page after page of the finale manuscript as mementos to anyone who had stopped by to pay their respects the dead composer. Allegedly, some pages were even used to line the bottoms of bird cages.

A criminal of music - a highly practiced academic con-man and swindler - Benjamin Korstvedt - has been proselytizing on behalf of Bruckner's enemies - the Schalk Brothers, Ferdinand Lowe, and others - all of whom did their best to damage Bruckner as much as possible - not only during Bruckner's lifetime, but well after his death. They used all of their considerable influence and power to block and and all attempts to reveal or even access Bruckner's original scores. Those battles raged as heatedly as any political fights do at this very day.

The unspeakable acts that they committed with their "masters" very last music clearly demonstrates their true motives and intentions.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

laurie said:


> And what do you think of it, Art Rock ?


I haven't heard it yet. In general I'm wary of these kinds of completions.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

More American perspective here-

Scott Joplin's pre-_Treemonisha_ opera foray- *A Guest of Honor*. Written in 1903.

The year before, Joplin wrote "Elite Syncopations,""The Entertainer," and "The Ragtime Dance."

What's lost by the disappearance of this work is (currently) unknowable and incalculable.


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## christomacin (Oct 21, 2017)

Good news for you. Dukas' "Goetz de Berlichingen", overture (1883) exists and has been recorded:


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## goatygoatygoatgoat (May 28, 2018)

I wish we had Albinoni's lost works - destroyed in the (hideous war-crime) firebombing of Dresden.


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## Biffo (Mar 7, 2016)

I second Neward's posting above - the Finale of Bruckner 9 and add Sibelius' Eighth Symphony (if it existed).

Mahler may have written as many as five symphonies in his student days, some of them might have survived until as late as 1939. They would be fascinating to hear even if immature and/or incomplete.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

The final two movements of Schuberts Unfinished Symphony, if they were ever written in the first place. Such a melodic genius and his pure spirit.


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