# Baroque & Classical Eras: A Discussion on Dynamics



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Does anyone else feel there are less extremes in dynamics in these two eras compared to the Romantics and Impressionists?

I think this smoothness makes this music the preferred eras of my mom. The jumps you find in the Romantic Era are a bit too much for her tastes.

Thoughts?


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Yes. before there was rarely if ever any ppp and fff. beethoven expanded the range. romantic music is more impulsive and expansive as well, so it called for greater dynamics.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> Yes. before there was rarely if ever any ppp and fff. beethoven expanded the range. romantic music is more impulsive and expansive as well, so it called for greater dynamics.


In all seriousness, I appreciate the Phil Seal of Approval, haha!


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

Terraced dynamics are characteristic of the Baroque era on keyboard at least. This means that you can't have a smooth crescendo or diminuendo, but rather a jump as you engage (or disengage) an extra set of strings to give more (or less) volume.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Taggart said:


> Terraced dynamics are characteristic of the Baroque era on keyboard at least. This means that you can't have a smooth crescendo or diminuendo, but rather a jump as you engage (or disengage) an extra set of strings to give more (or less) volume.


Do you mean the Harpsichord or Organ?


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

While it's true that there are 'less extremes in dynamics in [the Baroque & Classical] eras compared to the Romantics and Impressionists', that doesn't mean that the music was always to be played 'smoothly', i.e. with no or very little dynamic variation. It seems likely that we are less sensitive today to the subtler variations of a quieter age.

Although dynamic markings for loud and soft, crescendo and diminuendo occurred early in the Baroque period and became more numerous later, composers relied chiefly on the performer's intelligence and feeling to create an effect using dynamic changes. In the preface to his 'Nuove Musiche' Caccini is adamant about "Increasing and abating the voice" as 'the foundation of passion'. English viola da gamba composer, Christopher Simpson, observed that 'we play loud or soft, according to our fancy, or the humour [mood] of the music.' Matthew Locke's music for 'The Tempest' (1675) includes the instructions 'louder by degrees'; 'violent'; 'soft and slow by degrees'. Alessandro Scarlatti wrote that 'the pianos and fortes of the instruments are the light and shade which make any singing and playing agreeable'. Other musicians were careful to note that dynamic markings for successive levels might be indications not for sudden but for gradual changes. Italian singers were noted for their 'swellings of prodigious length' as well as their ability 'in tender airs to soften the voice insensibly and at last let it die outright'.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

My violin teacher is an HIP performer and the basic idea seems to be the pattern of strong and weak between bars and parts of the bars. I've never really understood it or developed an instinct - I just have to apply the theory as he tells it me, tailing off notes, echoing, getting louder as the notes get higher, bowing smoothly when the notes ascend or descend stepwise, doing retakes with my bow when there are jumps.

Patterning is everything. I remember at the summer school I went to, the class teacher, an HIP cellist, was always asking us to shape notes in particular ways, louder at the start, or in the middle - she said that to a baroque musician, a note played the same all the way through was a 'dead note'. She thought about every note and its place in the pattern - the art was so so subtle - lost on a fiddle-oik like me! 

As I understand it, a lot was left to the performers of the day - but they were working within the prevailing theories, not following their personal taste. That to me seems a romantic idea and I certainly agree with the OP that the contrasts are much more extreme in romantic music.

But what do I know?  
Still this is an interesting thread. 
This link is quite useful: https://www.thestrad.com/a-beginners-guide-to-baroque-violin/205.article


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

As people are becoming more and more deaf (figuratively speaking) they seem to need more and more stimulation for their senses  which results in all those dynamics development.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

helenora said:


> As people are becoming more and more deaf (figuratively speaking) they seem to need more and more stimulation for their senses  which results in all those dynamics development.


haha!  15 Characters.


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## Michael Diemer (Nov 12, 2017)

I for one like the "smoother" sound of the B & C periods, where dynamics often resulted from texture, and addition and subtraction of instruments. That's not to say I don't like the sound of the more recent eras. I love Debussy and Sibelius, and they certainly used dynamic variation to great effect. But it can be abused, becoming just a gimmick, as in so much of film music these days. Composers using virtual instruments seem to be obsessed with dynamic, as so many try to create sound that is so realistic as to fool most listeners into thinking it is actually by real musicians. They use dynamic variation to a ridiculous degree, often to the neglect of the more basic elements of melody, harmony and form.


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

helenora said:


> As people are becoming more and more deaf (figuratively speaking) they seem to need more and more stimulation for their senses  which results in all those dynamics development.


I think this post is produced due to a night time and me listening to Allegri Miserere Dei. I wish there would be more music like this piece! But strangely I start agreeing with Gustav Leonhardt on many things even though I still listen to music composed in 19th century and later.... :lol:


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

If you review other forms of art (painting, sculpture in particular) in the Baroque, Classical and Romantic eras you will see the same differences you discern in music. You will also note them in terms of history, political and social practice. 

The Baroque era was one of royal domination. That began to change in the Classical ear and was blown to bits in the Romantic era by the French and American revolutions. All of Europe followed this pattern after World War I when the dynasties in Russia, Germany, Turkey and England were affected by revolutions. 

If you follow this pattern you will see music became louder, wilder and more experimental in each of these centuries -- the 17th, 18th, 19th and 20th. 

The three keystone changes to music in the 20th century were the inventions of the automobile, airplane and World War I. These changed the world in ways never before; the world was no longer quiet and peaceful and World War I showed killing on a massive scale as never before and in ways never before practiced such as bombing from airplanes and poison gas. 

It is too early to cast any label on 21st century classical music other than to say other art forms including film and music theater have superseded it in ways that did not happen in the earlier centuries. It is also apparent that opera is a dying or dead art form.


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

larold said:


> It is too early to cast any label on 21st century classical music other than to say other art forms including film and music theater have superseded it in ways that did not happen in the earlier centuries. It is also apparent that opera is a dying or dead art form.


good post! as for an opera...unfortunately it must be true


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Dynamics became as much an element of composition as any other feature. Mahler's scores are notably thick with dynamic markings, and it's impossible to imagine the chaotic variety of performances that might ensue without his careful instructions.


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