# Flu Shot Poll



## SixFootScowl

Curious how many routinely get their annual flu shot? I never have had one and don't intend to start now. I understand they are not that effective and may cause side effects or worse.


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## schigolch

I'm in my fifties, and I have never had the flu so far, so I see no reason to get vaccinated.


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## Pugg

I never had one, if I catch a flu I always think : in about a few days it's gone.


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## Judith

I have been having one for a few years now as I work with the public and very prone to it. I don't think it cuts out flu completely but reduces the amount of attacks.


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## Guest

I get one every year, and aside from a sore arm for a few days, I've never had any side effects, nor have I had the flu!


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## Bellinilover

I get the flu shot routinely, even though I've only ever had the flu once. I work around kids, though, so I figure it's better to be safe than sorry.


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## KenOC

I got the flu two years ago in spite of the flu shot (they missed some popular strains that year). It was a disaster! But I'll keep getting the shots -- better partially covered than not covered at all.


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## senza sordino

My employer offers a flu shot ech year. One flu shot per employee is far far cheaper than the price of a substitute teacher for a week. I've been getting the flu shots but not consistently each year. 

I got the flu in 1987, 1997 and the last time was 2009. The last in 2009 was the swine flu, it was terrible, and left me flat on my back for nearly two weeks, and not really back at full strength for a couple of months. 

I'll probably get the flu shot in a couple of weeks when the travelling nurse comes to our school.


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## Sloe

I have only got influenza vaccination one time that was during the swine flu but apparently that vaccine had rather horrible side effects and was sort of a scandal so there is not much talk about influenza vaccination.


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## TurnaboutVox

If it only lasts a few days and goes away athen it probably isn't influenza. There are lots of "common cold" viruses that 'flu vaccinations do not protect you against - commonly the rhinovirus, coronavirus, respiratory syncytial virus (RSV) and parainfluenza virus.

Don't forget that influenza epidemics have killed millions of people (e.g, in 1918-9 in Europe). 

But flu vaccines are only effective if you can guess which influenza strains are going to threaten a given population, and they mutate rapidly too. They are also protective in only a proportion of the vaccinated population.

Having said that, I do get vaccinated every year as I have chronic medical conditions which would make it likely that real influenza would likely be rapidly fatal!


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## hpowders

I've never had a flu shot in my life, nor do I intend to ever get one.


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## Art Rock

I never had flu in my life, but five years ago I started taking (free) flu shots because of my heart condition. I stopped two years ago because I got adverse effect on the last shot, and because of publications casting doubt on its effectiveness.


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## Manxfeeder

My wife has to because she has asthma. I sometimes do. But I think this year's shot doesn't really cover the strain that's coming.


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## Bwv 1080

80,000 people died in the US from the flu last season - more than died from gun violence or opioid overdoses. get your shot - you might save your life or someone else's


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## LezLee

I’ve had mine every year since I was eligible but last year was a different strain and I got flu for the first time since 1958! I was really ill for 3 weeks. I still had my jab last November though. This one has enhanced protection for the over 70s, so I’m hoping I’ll be ok. For the first time, I felt really weird for a couple of hours afterwards and was close to phoning NHS Direct, but it passed.


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## starthrower

Pugg said:


> I never had one, if I catch a flu I always think : in about a few days it's gone.


The flu doesn't go away in a few days. I caught it once and it was a miserable couple of weeks. The first week was horrible. But I've still never had a flu shot.


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## jegreenwood

LezLee said:


> I've had mine every year since I was eligible but last year was a different strain and I got flu for the first time since 1958! I was really ill for 3 weeks. I still had my jab last November though. This one has enhanced protection for the over 70s, so I'm hoping I'll be ok. For the first time, I felt really weird for a couple of hours afterwards and was close to phoning NHS Direct, but it passed.


I turned 65 in May 2017, so I've gotten the enhanced dosage the last two falls. It definitely affects me; I may ask for the lighter dosage next year. I've been getting the shot my adult life, and I have never gotten the flu. I'll never know if that's a consequence of getting the shot, but if it ain't broke . . .


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## Room2201974

At my age, not getting a flu shot is like playing Russian roulette with two loaded chambers!


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## DaveM

The flu shot is not guaranteed to prevent the flu in any particular individual, but it will prevent a significant number of cases and even if it doesn’t totally cover all strains, it will probably reduce the severity of any given case. Those who don’t flu vaccinate their kids are playing Russian roulette with their lives. What isn’t appreciated is that often in younger people what kills is not the typical symptoms of the flu, but rather the massive (counterproductive) immune response that can occur if a pneumonia process occurs as a complication. Also, the older you get, the more likely the flu can be potentially deadly. I always have the antiviral Tamiflu available to take within 24 hours of the first symptoms if the vaccine hasn’t totally prevented the flu.


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## trazom

The only time in my life I got the flu was in middle/junior high school and I was out for almost 2 weeks. I remember even when I was mostly recovered and the 103 degree fever was gone, that I could barely manage the energy to stand up on two feet for more than a few seconds at a time and when I could walk and was back in school, I still had congested sinuses and dizzy spells. Don't want to go through that again(or worse) so it's annual flu shots for me.


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## DaveM

It's a good idea to get your flu shot unless it is administered by:


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## Strange Magic

I get mine without fail every year. No flu, and no ill effects so far, other than an ordinary slight soreness at the injection site.


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## wkasimer

DaveM said:


> The flu shot is not guaranteed to prevent the flu in any particular individual, but it will prevent a significant number of cases and even if it doesn't totally cover all strains, it will probably reduce the severity of any given case.


And it bears repeating that vastly more people are killed by influenza than are harmed by the vaccine.


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## Guest

Been getting it ever since the year I skipped one, got the flu and wound up in hospital.


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## Dorsetmike

Had mine on Friday, have it most years.


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## Triplets

My wife is a Nurse, I am a Physician, we get the shot as soon as it is available, and we both have had the flu now for a week. I’ve seen many patients in the last week with the flu who have had the shot. At least it isn’t as bad as last year when there several patients in our Practice that died from influenza; I also got it last year and almost had to be hospitalized. What can you do?


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## Ingélou

I get the flu shot every year. It's free for the over-65s in the UK, courtesy of our much-loved National Health Service, but I first started getting the jab when I was 51, when I'd pay for it at a private clinic. That was because Taggart was on steroids at that time because of a serious kidney condition and his immune system was compromised. 

Some years I get an infection - maybe a fluey cold rather than the real McCoy - and sometimes I don't. I don't know how effective the flu jab is, and I believe it varies from year to year, but I wouldn't feel safe going without it.


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## Guest

shirime said:


> Been getting it ever since the year I skipped one, got the flu and wound up in hospital.


Just looked up when that was. It was 2009, so it's been nearly 10 years. Haven't had the flu since.


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## Krummhorn

We get ours every year; Medicare pays 100% for it, too! We either participate in a flu shot clinic at our church or go to Costco pharmacy.


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## JosefinaHW

Fritz Kobus said:


> Curious how many routinely get their annual flu shot? I never have had one and don't intend to start now. I understand they are not that effective and may cause side effects or worse.


I started three years ago. My father really HAD to avoid getting the flu, so his doctor told us that anyone who was in frequent contact with him should get the shot. I did. No bad effects other than my arm was sore at the point of injection for a few days.


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## Merl

I voted 'sometimes' but I get a flu shot nearly every year. Fife Council didn't offer a free flu jag for its employees last year and there was a mini flu epidemic in Fife (I got it the week before Xmas and it was horrific). It cost the council millions in lost work hours. So this year they offered the free jag again.


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## JosefinaHW

Merl said:


> I voted 'sometimes' but I get a flu shot nearly every year. Fife Council didn't offer a free flu jag for its employees last year and there was a mini flu epidemic in Fife (I got it the week before Xmas and it was horrific). It cost the council millions in lost work hours. So this year they offered the free jag again.


I remember you being terribly ill last year; I thought you caught it after over-indulging in the eggnog at the Christmas party.


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## Huilunsoittaja

The last time I had a major illness where I was in bed with fever was back in high school, which was about 10 years ago. Then my parents came down with it and they had a fever for a week straight each. It was just a really strong virus or something. Otherwise, my immune system has been really good all through college and beyond, I don't think a shot is necessary. Just be hydrated, wash hands, eat and sleep well!


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## DaveM

Amantadine is a drug that has been thought to have mild anti-parkinsons symptoms effects with only mild side effects so it was often used in the past for elderly Parkinson’s patients. In the 1980s, a study appeared that showed that these patients in nursing homes were generally not getting the flu. It turned out that amantadine had anti-flu benefits.

So, in the winter of around 1986, my wife came down with the flu. I decided to be a guinea pig and took amantadine -and this was long before it was recommended for the purpose. My kids came down with the flu, but I didn’t. From then on, I gave my wife and the kids amantadine when necessary and they never were down with a full case of the flu from then on.

However, virtually all the flu strains developed a resistance to amantadine and the specific anti-flu drug, ramantadine that followed so they are no longer used. But, of course the very effective anti-virals such as Tamiflu have taken over the role since.


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## mmsbls

I get a flu shot every year to lower the chance that both I and those around me will get the flu. Obviously I don't want to get the flu, but I consider it very important that I am not a carrier infecting others.


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## tdc

Two answers apply for me, 'never' and ' I don't trust medical practitioners'. 

I also never get the flu. Vaccines are a billion dollar industry, flu shots are promoted in mainstream media because of that. Flu shots are a scam.


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## LezLee

tdc said:


> Two answers apply for me, 'never' and ' I don't trust medical practitioners'.
> 
> I also never get the flu. Vaccines are a billion dollar industry, flu shots are promoted in mainstream media because of that. Flu shots are a scam.


You "don't trust medical practitioners" ? Let's hope none of your family ever has cancer, epilepsy, diabetes, kidney failure, heart problems, a broken neck, burst appendix....... what will you do, call a witch-doctor? 
Also, you might not have had flu yet but if and when you do you could easily pass it on to more vulnerable people.
Flu jabs aren't promoted in mainstream media over here (only for public information) as most people don't have to pay for them.

Sorry for the rant, everyone.


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## DaveM

The flu virus is notorious for mutating annually so getting a perfect vaccine is an impossible challenge, but those on the frontlines have no doubt about the overall benefit of the flu vaccine.

Some people seem to be blessed with natural relative immunity to some of the common viruses. My wife almost never gets colds even though myself and kids close at hand may be raging with them. On the other hand, some people, due to the nature of their work or lifestyle, are not as likely to be in contact with some viruses. As people get older, they are more vulnerable to the flu. Personally, I like to control health issues as much as I can since there is so much we can’t control.


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## tdc

LezLee said:


> You "don't trust medical practioners" ? Let's hope none of your family ever has cancer, epilepsy, diabetes, kidney failure, heart problems, a broken neck, burst appendix....... what will you do, call a witch-doctor?
> Also, you might not have had flu yet but if and when you do you could easily pass it on to more vulnerable people.
> Flu jabs aren't promoted in mainstream media over here (only for public information) as most people don't have to pay for them.
> 
> Sorry for the rant, everyone.


Bla bla bla...baaa baaa


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## Bwv 1080

Antivaxxers are like Holocaust deniers or young-earth creationists, no point in trying to have a reality-based conversation with them


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## tdc

Bwv 1080 said:


> Antivaxxers are like Holocaust deniers or young-earth creationists, no point in trying to have a reality-based conversation with them


"Reality based" eh?

No point in having conversations with folks too lazy, cowardly and apathetic to do their own research.


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## Guest

tdc said:


> Two answers apply for me, 'never' and ' I don't trust medical practitioners'.
> 
> I also never get the flu. Vaccines are a billion dollar industry, flu shots are promoted in mainstream media because of that. Flu shots are a scam.


Show me that data regarding how much money vaccines make. Do you have the faintest notion how long it takes to get a vaccine from discovery, to development, to testing, to finally cleared for use in patients, and how many millions of dollars are spent in that development before a single penny in profit is seen? And that is not even counting the lost money in the numerous vaccines that never make it that far.

You are lucky enough to live in a country where vaccines have been so successful that you can now speak derisively of them. Chances are you have never known a person paralyzed by polio, killed or scared by smallpox, a young child killed by measles, mumps, German measles, diphtheria, whooping cough, tetanus, rabies, or any of the other diseases you rarely hear of anymore thanks to vaccines. But yeah, it is all a scam.


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## Guest

tdc said:


> "Reality based" eh?
> 
> No point in having conversations with folks too lazy, cowardly and apathetic to do their own research.


I do my own research. I literally do scientific research, studying immunity to flu. And you?


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## Bwv 1080

tdc said:


> "Reality based" eh?
> 
> No point in having conversations with folks too lazy, cowardly and apathetic to do their own research.


 LOL doing your own research is the problem


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## JosefinaHW

Bwv 1080 said:


> Antivaxxers are like Holocaust deniers or young-earth creationists, no point in trying to have a reality-based conversation with them


I didn't know that all people that have some hesitations about vaccinations have now been objectified by a term--anti-vaxxers. Well what else can we expect when everything and everyone is being politicized and objectified. Sigh.

I don't have children directly in my life, but I can understand where there would be some concern about the increasing number of viruses being included in the series of vaccinations given at such an early age when the baby's immune system isn't at full-function yet. I am amazed that such a tiny system can handle all those powerful entities. It might be possible that some babies will suffer some adverse short or long-term effect. I'm not arguing against vaccinations, but I can understand the concern.

Also, I am not going to pry into the intensity of tdc's response, but when someone you love has suffered terribly or died from "malpractice" or arrogance particularly if the case involved varied specialists etc., I can well-understand their intense gut reaction and their hesitation to trust again.


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## Bwv 1080

JosefinaHW said:


> I didn't know that all people that have some hesitations about vaccinations have now been objectified by a term--anti-vaxxers. Well what else can we expect when everything and everyone is being politicized and objectified. Sigh.
> 
> I don't have children directly in my life, but I can understand where there would be some concern about the increasing number of viruses being included in the series of vaccinations given at such an early age when the baby's immune system isn't at full-function yet. I am amazed that such a tiny system can handle all those powerful entities. It might be possible that some babies will suffer some adverse short or long-term effect. I'm not arguing against vaccinations, but I can understand the concern.
> 
> Also, I am not going to pry into the intensity of tdc's response, but when someone you love has suffered terribly or died from "malpractice" or arrogance particularly if the case involved varied specialists etc., I can well-understand their intense gut reaction and their hesitation to trust again.


It's not about feelings, it's about science and public safety. The science is settled - vaccines are safe and a neccessary component of public health.


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## Guest

JosefinaHW said:


> I didn't know that all people that have some hesitations about vaccinations have now been objectified by a term--anti-vaxxers. Well what else can we expect when everything and everyone is being politicized and objectified. Sigh.
> 
> I don't have children directly in my life, but I can understand where there would be some concern about the increasing number of viruses being included in the series of vaccinations given at such an early age when the baby's immune system isn't at full-function yet. I am amazed that such a tiny system can handle all those powerful entities. It might be possible that some babies will suffer some adverse short or long-term effect. I'm not arguing against vaccinations, but I can understand the concern.
> 
> Also, I am not going to pry into the intensity of tdc's response, but when someone you love has suffered terribly or died from "malpractice" or arrogance particularly if the case involved varied specialists etc., I can well-understand their intense gut reaction and their hesitation to trust again.


Just as a woman is born with all the eggs she will ever have, when we are born, we have all the specificities of immune cells we will need. Sometimes it is enough, sometimes not. Some vaccines work well in young children, others not. The flu vaccine is ineffective in newborns. Believe it or not, we scientists ask these questions. Multiple scientists are usually working on the same questions. People peddling take science or long disproved data live to sew doubts in the public about vaccines. The truth of it is that vaccines have been among the most impacting scientific discoveries, along with antibiotics, in improving life expectancy and lowering mortality rates. That is what the data shows.


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## JosefinaHW

DrMike said:


> Just as a woman is born with all the eggs she will ever have, when we are born, we have all the specificities of immune cells we will need. Sometimes it is enough, sometimes not. Some vaccines work well in young children, others not. The flu vaccine is ineffective in newborns. *Believe it or not, we scientists ask these questions*. Multiple scientists are usually working on the same questions. People peddling take science or long disproved data live to sew doubts in the public about vaccines. The truth of it is that vaccines have been among the most impacting scientific discoveries, along with antibiotics, in improving life expectancy and lowering mortality rates. That is what the data shows.


First, don't assume based on what I said that I am not a scientist. No offense taken on my part, but you are objectifying and lumping me into some convenient category that I AS A PERSON do not fit into neatly.

I do support vaccinations; I've had them and will continue as needed. I have been a great admirer of Pasteur and Benjamin Rush for decades. Just remember that we have advanced medicine based on lots of mistakes, too. I can understand people's concerns and I can understand boosting your own immune system before getting a powerful vaccination; it's part of the reason that some people have to wait before they get a flu shot or a pneumonia shot. Don't attack people who are concerned especially on a music forum. You are not going to convince the world of anything on here. So, be sensitive to the human being that is writing a post: it can be very difficult to ever trust again when you've lost someone you love. Or seen the terrible effects it can have on the person who remains.


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## Larkenfield

_The Flu._ At one time, I had a friend who'd lost her mother during the catastrophic Influenza Epidemic of 1918. That's going _way _ back in time. And she felt that her mother was watching over her from the spiritual dimension. I believe it's possibly true. Sometimes one could sense a psychic energy around her. Rather amazing... I haven't had the shots for a number of years and, fortunately, I've been fine. But another epidemic like that one wouldn't be good. I try to avoid people in line at the supermarket who are coughing or obviously sick. I think it helps not get what others have, and there are also ways to help one's immune system, such as the eye of a newt and the toe of a frog.


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## Strange Magic

tdc said:


> "Reality based" eh?
> 
> No point in having conversations with folks too lazy, cowardly and apathetic to do their own research.


Good old American Defiant Ignorance!


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## KenOC

A thing I see today that I NEVER saw until a few years ago -- people routinely wiping the handles of their shopping carts, and their hands, with disinfectant wipes when entering grocery stores. Now I know that it's thought that keeping the hands clean has a major impact on transmitting flu and the like, but does anybody know if this hand-wiping really makes a difference in the incidence of disease transmission?


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## tdc

Strange Magic said:


> Good old American Defiant Ignorance!


Good old American corporate lackey.


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## tdc

Bwv 1080 said:


> It's not about feelings, it's about science and public safety. The science is settled - vaccines are safe and a neccessary component of public health.


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## DaveM

KenOC said:


> A thing I see today that I NEVER saw until a few years ago -- people routinely wiping the handles of their shopping carts, and their hands, with disinfectant wipes when entering grocery stores. Now I know that it's thought that keeping the hands clean has a major impact on transmitting flu and the like, but does anybody know if this hand-wiping really makes a difference in the incidence of disease transmission?


It's a good question and I don't think there has been a study to prove or disprove the practice as effective. What I think is more important is to keep our hands away from our face, particularly nose and eyes. For every time we disinfect a given surface, we are probably touching several that are just as or more potentially virus/bacterial laden. For instance, opening the door on leaving a public restroom when others have not washed before doing so, sliding our hands along handrails at stadiums, putting things in the seat pockets on airlines which apparently contain the most bacteria -apparently things such as diapers have been found there, handling money given you by a checker who is battling a cold, etc.


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## KenOC

DaveM said:


> It's a good question and I don't think there has been a study to prove or disprove the practice as effective. What I think is more important is to keep our hands away from our face, particularly nose and eyes. For every time we disinfect a given surface, we are probably touching several that are just as or more potentially virus/bacterial laden. For instance, opening the door on leaving a public restroom when others have not washed before doing so, sliding our hands along handrails at stadiums, putting things in the seat pockets on airlines which apparently contain the most bacteria -apparently things such as diapers have been found there, handling money given you by a checker who is battling a cold, etc.


Very good points! OTOH Darwinists might say to go ahead and spread those diseases around, so that the population can be weeded of those individuals most at risk from them, and the resulting stock thus more viable. But I doubt that public health policy is based on such principles.


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## jenspen

DrMike said:


> People peddling take science or long disproved data live to sew doubts in the public about vaccines. The truth of it is that vaccines have been among the most impacting scientific discoveries, along with antibiotics, in improving life expectancy and lowering mortality rates. That is what the data shows.


Andrew Wakefield, what have you wrought? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield.

What depresses me is that so many intelligent people, who benefit from living in a community with a high rate of vaccination and who are capable of appreciating the evidence presented by science, don't seem to care enough about the safety of others to favour that evidence over their personal comfort or over ideas picked up from various campaigners.


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## DaveM

tdc said:


>


Well, this is our old friend, Del Bigtree, fellow autism-causing vaccine conspiracy artist along with Andrew Wakefield who is credited with starting this whole anti-vaccine mess in Britain which apparently thought so much of his activity that they kicked him out of the medical profession. Bigtree produced the anti-vaccine documentary Vaxxed starring Wakefield himself having found new life in the US.

The above video starts by talking about an alleged great debate that fell through because the evil pro-vaccine experts cancelled. Apparently to replace the great debate, Bigtree who has no scientific or medical credentials whatsoever regales us with all sorts of misrepresentations. For instance, he throws out the fact that you might get Guillain-Barré syndrome and possibly be paralyzed for life after the vaccine. The fact is that GBS occurs so much more after the actual flu that the relationship is statistically apparent whereas any increased incidence due to flu vaccine is tough to nail down. Also, by far, most people recover from GBS.

He also oversimplifies and misrepresents a study that showed the possibility that getting the flu vaccine might temporarily reduce immunity to other respiratory illnesses which he infers is a hazardous side-effect, but fails to mention that they were caused by viruses such as rhinovirus and coxsackie, ie. the common cold. The authors of the study admitted to some weaknesses of the study which was, for one thing, fairly small. Still, even if there is some truth to the results, the increase in other URIs was relatively small and the fact is that the flu can kill, colds don't. Below is the actual study if anyone cares to read it. I could go on, but life is too short...

https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/54/12/1778/455098


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## Strange Magic

tdc said:


> Good old American corporate lackey.


Global Warming a Chinese Hoax?


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## Guest

tdc said:


>


This is your expert? A guy who was a producer for the Dr. Phil Show?
Here is actual evidence of the effectiveness of vaccines:
https://www.cdc.gov/Mmwr/Preview/Mmwrhtml/00056803.htm
To summarize, at the beginning of the 20th century, ~100 years ago, we averaged 48,000 cases of smallpox per year and 1500 deaths. Today those numbers are 0 cases and 0 deaths. In 1920, there were nearly 500,000 cases of measles, with 7500 deaths. In 1998, there were 89 cases of measles, and no deaths. In the 3 years before polio vaccination was introduced (1955), we averaged 16,000 cases of paralytic polio per year and nearly 1900 deaths. As of 1991, polio has been eradicated in the Western Hemisphere. Unfortunately, the same can't be said for elsewhere. Several African nations have discontinued the vaccination because people have spread false information about the vaccine, including that it is a plot to spread HIV in Africa.

Those are the numbers. And that is just for the 3 most successful vaccines we have. Not all are as effective, and that has more to do with the nature of the disease being targeted. Smallpox was so massively successful because, unlike a lot of viruses, this one does not mutate very much, humans are the primary hosts (it isn't hiding out in other species). Influenza mutates rapidly. The dominant strain one year is not necessarily the dominant one the next. We have to guess what will be dominant so that we can produce vaccines in time - you can't just crank these out like a McDonald's hamburger. Mostly we observe what occurs in the Southern hemisphere, since the seasons are flipped and their flu season occurs before ours in the Northern hemisphere. Sometimes we end up with the same dominant strain as them, sometimes not. Even when the vaccines aren't perfectly matched against the dominant strain, there is still a benefit to getting the vaccine. If you get the shot, there is no earthly way you can get the flu. The flu shot contains proteins from the virus, not the entire virus. You could no more get the flu from the flu shot than you could build a Ferrari with only a few hubcaps and a hood ornament. The inhaled vaccine is a live virus, but it has been attenuated, so it also can't cause the disease. When people claim they get sick from the flu shot, with the very rare exception (and I mean VERY rare, because all such things are trade-offs), it is nothing more than just the actions of your own immune system being primed. The same is true with the common cold. Often what we experience is the effects of the immune system fighting something rather than the infection itself.

I know you won't be convinced. You have decided that scientists - particularly scientists working in this field of vaccine development - simply are not to be trusted, and that they are always working with a profit motive in mind, above the actual good of the patient. Nothing I can say will disabuse you of that notion. I find it ridiculously absurd, however, that you have turned all your belief over to those who have zero specialty in this area. You are essentially saying, "I don't trust the car mechanic to fix my car, because he only wants to make money off of me. I'd much rather have the butcher down the street rebuild my transmission. Him I can trust!"

The data - not some of the data, not most of the data - the overwhelming data shows that vaccines are safe and effective. They go through years of research, development, and multiple rounds of trials before they can be administered to people. First they have to be proven safe and effective in small animal models (usually mice). If possible, they are tested in non-human primates (monkeys). And then the clinical trials start - three rounds of them. The first on a very limited cohort. If any sign of adverse effects is seen, it is over, back to the drawing board. Those results can't be dismissed. They aren't performed in some secret black site facility, where only top agents of the government observe the effects on duped "volunteers" and the perimeter is patrolled by black helicopters. They take place in places like research hospitals and universities. The teams that work on them are very large - including researchers and clinicians. All such trials - from the early trials in non-humans, to the later trials in humans - are overseen by oversight councils. In the case of animals, by an IACUC committee, which must approve the work, and then receives reports whenever adverse events happen that were not foreseen. For work in humans, the IRB oversees and approves any and all work. All of these committees necessarily have outsiders sitting on them, from the community, to insure that an insular group of researchers isn't covering for themselves. We have come a long way from Edward Jenner testing his first smallpox vaccine in an orphan child, or the Tuskegee syphilis studies.

Why not do some real research into the field. There are no credible studies out there that vaccines cause autism. One study that linked the MMR vaccine to autism was shown to have used fraudulent data, and has been revoked, the author stripped of his credentials. Numerous studies since have clearly shown no connection.


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## Guest

KenOC said:


> Very good points! OTOH Darwinists might say to go ahead and spread those diseases around, so that the population can be weeded of those individuals most at risk from them, and the resulting stock thus more viable. But I doubt that public health policy is based on such principles.


That is flawed. You limit your Darwinian interpretation. What about the notion that we have evolved to such a point that our brains can develop such things as vaccines to give ourselves a competitive advantage. We don't possess many of the natural strengths of other species - physically, we can't stand up against even other close relatives in the primate family, such as gorillas and chimpanzees. Our bodies are poorly suited for outdoor living in anything but the most temperate of climates. Our main evolutionary feature that gives us an advantage is our minds, which allow us to build complex structures for shelter, utilize things from the environment (or even create synthetics) to protect our bodies from even the harshest of environments - including the near vacuum of space. And we have learned how to cure or prevent diseases.

No - I don't think true Darwinists would suggest anything near what you are suggesting.


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## Guest

DaveM said:


> It's a good question and I don't think there has been a study to prove or disprove the practice as effective. What I think is more important is to keep our hands away from our face, particularly nose and eyes. For every time we disinfect a given surface, we are probably touching several that are just as or more potentially virus/bacterial laden. For instance, opening the door on leaving a public restroom when others have not washed before doing so, sliding our hands along handrails at stadiums, putting things in the seat pockets on airlines which apparently contain the most bacteria -apparently things such as diapers have been found there, handling money given you by a checker who is battling a cold, etc.


I think it has a placebo effect. Honestly, disinfecting usually requires more than a single swipe with anything. Bleach is still one of the most effective disinfectants we have, but that usually takes at least 10 minutes for maximum effectiveness. Hand washing is good practice, but most people don't do it nearly as long as is necessary to be properly effective. Still, there are good practices to follow. Cover your mouth when you cough. Wash your hands after using the bathroom.

It should also be noted, though, that the hygiene hypothesis has really taken off as of late. This hypothesis holds that it is important to be exposed to things early in life - it is actually beneficial to the immune system. In Western countries, where hygiene is better, and we have become more of a "sterile" culture, the incidents of asthma and allergies are much higher than in underdeveloped nations, and is rising. Research is showing that exposure to environmental germs/bugs helps the immune system properly develop, and results in less inappropriate immune responses (allergies, asthma, etc.).


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## Guest

JosefinaHW said:


> First, don't assume based on what I said that I am not a scientist. No offense taken on my part, but you are objectifying and lumping me into some convenient category that I AS A PERSON do not fit into neatly.
> 
> I do support vaccinations; I've had them and will continue as needed. I have been a great admirer of Pasteur and Benjamin Rush for decades. Just remember that we have advanced medicine based on lots of mistakes, too. I can understand people's concerns and I can understand boosting your own immune system before getting a powerful vaccination; it's part of the reason that some people have to wait before they get a flu shot or a pneumonia shot. Don't attack people who are concerned especially on a music forum. You are not going to convince the world of anything on here. So, be sensitive to the human being that is writing a post: it can be very difficult to ever trust again when you've lost someone you love. Or seen the terrible effects it can have on the person who remains.


Good gracious, I did nothing of the kind. I will admit, though, that the comments you made suggested that you did not work in this field. I do work in this field, and can usually tell those who also work in it from those who don't, given the type of language they use when discussing the topic. But I never assumed you weren't a scientist. Quite honestly, I gave no thought whatsoever to your profession.

We should be kind to people, is what I am hearing you say. Fair enough. I can agree with that. But I don't believe that reinforcing a lie - especially one that can lead to death - just to assuage one's emotions is a kindness. My child very much does not want a shot - ever. And yet I know that the greater kindness is to provide them with the life-saving medication/vaccine/treatment rather than perpetuating a lie and letting them suffer worse. That is why science is not run by anecdote. Look hard enough and you will never have a shortage of people who had an adverse experience with the medical field. Doctors are people. Sometimes they make mistakes. And sometimes the medical field just is not where we want it to be, and no effort of doctors, regardless of how experienced they are, will change it. But people always need to have someone to blame. So the doctor makes a convenient target. Or the pharmaceutical companies. For some reason, we think that anybody who we have to pay is nefarious. But we certainly aren't when we expect compensation for our efforts.

Doctors sometimes have to deliver the harsh truths. No, we can't cure you and you most likely will die. No, I can't guarantee that this procedure will make you 100% healthy. No, I can't guarantee that the baby growing inside you will be absolutely perfect in every way and grow up to be the next Einstein or Beethoven. Sometimes life sucks, and people get sick and die. But there is one irrefutable truth - because of vaccines, a whole lot less people are getting sick and dying than used to, even as recently as 50 or 100 years ago.


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## Bwv 1080

Feelings go both ways, what about the feelings of the parents of this baby who died from whooping cough due to anti-vaxxers? (the child was too young for the vaccine and depended on herd immunity from others getting vaccinated)

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-01-14/parents-share-video-of-baby-rileys-final-moments/7087434

Or autistic people who see that parents are willing to risk the lives of their children out of fear of their condition?


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## Strange Magic

DrMike said:


> It should also be noted, though, that the hygiene hypothesis has really taken off as of late. This hypothesis holds that it is important to be exposed to things early in life - it is actually beneficial to the immune system. In Western countries, where hygiene is better, and we have become more of a "sterile" culture, the incidents of asthma and allergies are much higher than in underdeveloped nations, and is rising. Research is showing that exposure to environmental germs/bugs helps the immune system properly develop, and results in less inappropriate immune responses (allergies, asthma, etc.).


I know DrMike has me on his ignore list, and I don't mind; who suffers the greater loss? But he is 100% correct in his vigorous espousal of vaccines, immunization, and general hygiene; the facts are beyond rational dispute. But I also welcome his bringing up the subject of very early childhood introduction to the common allergens, "irritants", bacteria, other benign biological materials in the outdoor environment in order to strengthen each individual's immune system. He accurately notes the rise of allergies, asthma, and other chronic and acute reactions among today's youth, many of whom have been isolated and passive indoors while an ever-smaller number of their healthier peers are outside playing in the dirt.


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## starthrower

It's a drag living here in the northeast. It's been so cold I can't get out to walk. I go to the gym last week and two days later come down with a horrible cold that has been kicking my butt for five days now. This is purely anecdotal, but it's interesting to note that that the past two winters there was a full time cleaning crew at the gym and I didn't get sick. This year under new ownership they canned the cleaning people, the place is no longer spotless, nobody is wiping down the equipment or cleaning the locker room a couple times a day, and I catch a horrible cold after going there. My wife is right. She says we need to get the heck outta here and move to a more temperate climate where we can be outdoors year round breathing fresh air.


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## starthrower

Strange Magic said:


> He accurately notes the rise of allergies, asthma, and other chronic and acute reactions among today's youth, many of whom have been isolated and passive indoors while an ever-smaller number of their healthier peers are outside playing in the dirt.


Sedentary lifestyle, consumption of processed food loaded with sugar, sodium, preservatives leading to widespread obesity... It's no wonder people aren't healthy.


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## Krummhorn

KenOC said:


> A thing I see today that I NEVER saw until a few years ago -- people routinely wiping the handles of their shopping carts, and their hands, with disinfectant wipes when entering grocery stores. Now I know that it's thought that keeping the hands clean has a major impact on transmitting flu and the like, but does anybody know if this hand-wiping really makes a difference in the incidence of disease transmission?


Pretty much a standard thing to do if on an ocean cruise. On our last one to the Hawaiian islands a ship employee was standing at the entrance to the food buffet next to a disinfectant dispenser insisting that everyone used it. The last place anyone would want a virus to break out is on an ocean cruise with 2,000+ other people, so yes, I do see it being effective.


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## starthrower

People wipe off shopping carts, but they don't wipe off gas pump handles.


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## philoctetes

Crowded, infected closed spaces, usually in the wintertime, are how I always get sick. Nowadays I can avoid them and I haven't been sick in years. Living in a moderate climate doesn't hurt. It's one of the things that made California a great place to live... until the fires.... now I think about leaving and worry about being confined indoors again...

It was obvious how this thread would turn out. People shaming each other as always. It's all some people know about how to socialize..


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## JosefinaHW

DrMike said:


> Good gracious, I did nothing of the kind. I will admit, though, that the comments you made suggested that you did not work in this field. I do work in this field, and can usually tell those who also work in it from those who don't, given the type of language they use when discussing the topic. But I never assumed you weren't a scientist. Quite honestly, I gave no thought whatsoever to your profession.
> 
> We should be kind to people, is what I am hearing you say. Fair enough. I can agree with that. But I don't believe that reinforcing a lie - especially one that can lead to death - just to assuage one's emotions is a kindness. My child very much does not want a shot - ever. And yet I know that the greater kindness is to provide them with the life-saving medication/vaccine/treatment rather than perpetuating a lie and letting them suffer worse. That is why science is not run by anecdote. Look hard enough and you will never have a shortage of people who had an adverse experience with the medical field. Doctors are people. Sometimes they make mistakes. And sometimes the medical field just is not where we want it to be, and no effort of doctors, regardless of how experienced they are, will change it. But people always need to have someone to blame. So the doctor makes a convenient target. Or the pharmaceutical companies. For some reason, we think that anybody who we have to pay is nefarious. But we certainly aren't when we expect compensation for our efforts.
> 
> But there is one irrefutable truth - because of vaccines, a whole lot less people are getting sick and dying than used to, even as recently as 50 or 100 years ago.


 We were calmly sharing our experience with the flu shot and a long-term member who has made many valuable posts about music has a very intense reaction about vaccinations and the medical profession as a whole-one of the possible responses in the poll. And, some of us being long-term members who have read many different threads in many different sections of the forum, get to know personal things about each other. This thread is not some official public policy discussion, the person was not threatening to not vaccinate any children he might have, it's a poll in the community forum of TalkClassical.

So, how do you respond to his post: Slash back at the irrational antivaxxer; pause a moment and consider whether to drop the subject; consider whether to send him a PM; or handle it in some other kind and sympathetic manner?
It is completely understandable that a person who has one or several terrible experience would then distrust the entire field. No, it's not rational, but irrational anger is a part of many people's experience of grief, especially when their pain is raw. The more sensitive the person, the more intense the pain and the reaction.

As for me, I was not arguing against vaccinations in either children or adults. But it is a serious thing with serious risks. I can completely understand why a parent would have some fear or concern about the process. Afterall, aren't parents still told to be observant and report immediately any troubling responses.

I also find it extremely reassuring that all of the many different senior professionals involved in vaccination continue to recommend that testing be continued especially since we *do not completely understand the infant immune system*.


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## Guest

JosefinaHW said:


> We were calmly sharing our experience with the flu shot and a long-term member who has made many valuable posts about music has a very intense reaction about vaccinations and the medical profession as a whole-one of the possible responses in the poll. And, some of us being long-term members who have read many different threads in many different sections of the forum, get to know personal things about each other. This thread is not some official public policy discussion, the person was not threatening to not vaccinate any children he might have, it's a poll in the community forum of TalkClassical.
> 
> So, how do you respond to his post: Slash back at the irrational antivaxxer; pause a moment and consider whether to drop the subject; consider whether to send him a PM; or handle it in some other kind and sympathetic manner?
> It is completely understandable that a person who has one or several terrible experience would then distrust the entire field. No, it's not rational, but irrational anger is a part of many people's experience of grief, especially when their pain is raw. The more sensitive the person, the more intense the pain and the reaction.
> 
> As for me, I was not arguing against vaccinations in either children or adults. But it is a serious thing with serious risks. I can completely understand why a parent would have some fear or concern about the process. Afterall, aren't parents still told to be observant and report immediately any troubling responses.
> 
> I also find it extremely reassuring that all of the many different senior professionals involved in vaccination continue to recommend that testing be continued especially since we *do not completely understand the infant immune system*.


I'm really not getting where you are coming from here. I responded to a video that someone posted on here that absolutely seeks to encourage people to not vaccinate their children, produced by one man who is a fraud and fabricated data to literally become the father of the anti-vaxxer movement, and some TV producer that would have us believe he has some expertise in the field. I refuted them. I attacked nobody.

As I have stated numerous times now, NOBODY has stopped doing research into vaccines. We (speaking as someone who actually does research in this field) are constantly looking for ways to improve vaccines, to make them more effective in fewer doses, etc. I have even personally done research into neonatal immunity, specifically to flu infection. We know that neonates don't respond to the influenza vaccine, so we don't vaccinate children 6 months old and younger. But other vaccinations given early in life work quite well.

The risks aren't nearly as great as you say. And the risks from the actual infections are worse - which is why we vaccinate. If the risks of vaccination were worse than the risks of actual infection, the vaccine would never be approved.

If someone had a bad experience with the medical profession, my condolences to them. That still doesn't confer upon them an alternate reality. Two wrongs don't make a right. Vaccines are an overwhelming good, whether someone has an extremely rare adverse reaction or not. I'm sorry if you think that attitude is wrong. But my comments have not been off topic, nor have they been anywhere near a violation of the rules of this forum - believe me, I am quite familiar with where that line is.


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## JosefinaHW

DrMike said:


> I'm really not getting where you are coming from here. I responded to a video that someone posted on here that absolutely seeks to encourage people to not vaccinate their children, produced by one man who is a fraud and fabricated data to literally become the father of the anti-vaxxer movement, and some TV producer that would have us believe he has some expertise in the field. I refuted them. I attacked nobody.


Part of what I said:

"So, how do you respond to his post: Slash back at the irrational antivaxxer; pause a moment and consider whether to drop the subject; consider whether to send him a PM; or handle it in some other kind and sympathetic manner?
It is completely understandable that a person who has one or several terrible experience would then distrust the entire field. No, it's not rational, but irrational anger is a part of many people's experience of grief, especially when their pain is raw. The more sensitive the person, the more intense the pain and the reaction."

"You" was meant to everyone reading and responding to his post or any post of such a nature, especially from a TC member who never (as far as I remember) goes about making nasty, sarcastic remarks. The post was out of character, meaning something very troubling was going in the mind/life of the poster.

If you or anyone else cares to spend the time, go back and read the direct responses to his initial post. Lots of understanding; no nasty sarcasm; no remarks to keep provoking someone who is already upset; lots of sympathy and kindness.

Again, I never said that I don't value vaccines (my life was saved by a first round of rabies vaccinations) and don't realize how many lives are saved by them. I said I understand a person's (particularly a new parent's) fear and concern.


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## tdc

Thanks for your concern JosephinaHW, but I assure you I have no hurt feelings, and I received the kind of responses on this thread that I suspected I might. 

I know some vaccines are necessary and I know doctors perform some very helpful and useful roles in society but on many matters related to health I do not trust them, because I think for the most part they have been miseducated.

I think people should be alarmed at the amount of vaccines being given to people today and question whether they are really necessary and also question why such toxic ingredients are added to the vaccines. I really value Del's work on this topic, I think he makes a lot of great points. I applaud his courage. Some people call his data fraudulent, yet he makes the same claim towards others, who to believe? I think people should familiarize themselves with his work and think for themselves.

Questions have been raised about the money in vaccines. When people are not outright charged they are paying for them through health insurance and/or taxation. I assure you that there are people getting very rich off vaccines.

My view has not been changed and this is all I have to say on the topic.


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## JosefinaHW

tdc: If you're done then this will be my final post in this thread. I will just say that when there was great public concern about the mercury-containing solution it was discontinued. Not that it was proven that it was dangerous (and far I am aware), but it was changed to reassure the public concern.

Please forgive me if I embarassed you w. my concern.


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## tdc

JosefinaHW said:


> Please forgive me if I embarassed you w. my concern.


Nope. All good.


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## Marinera

tdc said:


> Thanks for your concern JosephinaHW, but I assure you I have no hurt feelings, and I received the kind of responses on this thread that I suspected I might.
> 
> I know some vaccines are necessary and I know doctors perform some very helpful and useful roles in society but on many matters related to health I do not trust them, because I think for the most part they have been miseducated.
> 
> I think people should be alarmed at the amount of vaccines being given to people today and question whether they are really necessary and also question why such toxic ingredients are added to the vaccines. I really value Del's work on this topic, I think he makes a lot of great points. I applaud his courage. Some people call his data fraudulent, yet he makes the same claim towards others, who to believe? I think people should familiarize themselves with his work and think for themselves.
> 
> Questions have been raised about the money in vaccines. When people are not outright charged they are paying for them through health insurance and/or taxation. I assure you that there are people getting very rich off vaccines.
> 
> My view has not been changed and this is all I have to say on the topic.


I, agree with your post. What can you expect when pharmaceutical industry basically hijacked medical education anyway. It's even worse with infants, the amount of vaccines being given to children and babies is obscene. 
When you come to general practitioner, they push you drugs, they never or only rarely talk about diet and lifestyle, they prescribe medicines even when they can't diagnose and have no idea what's wrong. Jokers.


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## Guest

Says the people who luckily benefited from parents and ancestors who didn't have the sage irrational fear. There is clearly a lack of understanding regarding the development of vaccines and their safety. And when you think everything is a conspiracy to hurt you for profit, logic has gone out the window. Yes - thousands and thousands of doctors, researchers, pharmaceutical execs, government agencies are all consulting together just so a few execs can get rich (goodness knows I haven't received my paycheck yet for my part in the cover up). Don't trust any of us. Trust Andrew Wakefield, who was trying to make a profit off of his anti-vax campaign when it was shown he made up data, was performing unnecessary invasive procedures on children, and outright lying. Or trust the TV producer whose job it is to find monsters in closets so he can get rich off of sensationalism. Those two clearly know so much more than all the rest of us.


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## Guest

JosefinaHW said:


> Part of what I said:
> 
> "So, how do you respond to his post: Slash back at the irrational antivaxxer; pause a moment and consider whether to drop the subject; consider whether to send him a PM; or handle it in some other kind and sympathetic manner?
> It is completely understandable that a person who has one or several terrible experience would then distrust the entire field. No, it's not rational, but irrational anger is a part of many people's experience of grief, especially when their pain is raw. The more sensitive the person, the more intense the pain and the reaction."
> 
> "You" was meant to everyone reading and responding to his post or any post of such a nature, especially from a TC member who never (as far as I remember) goes about making nasty, sarcastic remarks. The post was out of character, meaning something very troubling was going in the mind/life of the poster.
> 
> If you or anyone else cares to spend the time, go back and read the direct responses to his initial post. Lots of understanding; no nasty sarcasm; no remarks to keep provoking someone who is already upset; lots of sympathy and kindness.
> 
> Again, I never said that I don't value vaccines (my life was saved by a first round of rabies vaccinations) and don't realize how many lives are saved by them. I said I understand a person's (particularly a new parent's) fear and concern.


This game is tiring. You specifically quoted my post, and then used "you" in the singular in your response. Now when I have pushed back, you respond with your "I was talking to all of 'you' not just 'you'" claim. I'm not buying it.

Yes, I do respond a little more to these types of things, because it is an attack on my profession. None of you are specifically targeting me - I understand that - but I am one of those people whose job it is to study the immune system, study how it fights off infections, and devise strategies to boost those immune responses, either after the fact with immunotherapies against chronic infections (I have done research into HIV and hepatitis C virus) or devising better strategies for more effective flu vaccines for both adults and neonates, which would be less dependent on the particular strain prevalent in a given season. That is what I have been doing for the last 21 years of my life. But my research, and those of other colleagues, is impugned as being manipulated by pharmaceutical companies (I have never received a dime of money from anything other than the NIH and the American Cancer Society and the Gates Foundation in all my time in research) to cynically profit by giving people vaccines for, at best, no benefit, and, at worst, to give their kids autism. So yes, I fight back against such aspersions on my profession. One person's anecdote does not give them license to do so.

For the others who spread their conspiracy theories about vaccines - yes, I will challenge your claims. Against your handful of disgraced former clinicians and sensationalist TV producers looking to profit off of scandal, I have thousands of researchers, untold hours of labwork, publications that are scrutinized by others in their field, millions of dollars spent on research, development, and clinical trials. You are being sold snake oil. Children now are dying again in Western nations of illnesses that were on the brink of eradication because Andrew Wakefield spreads lies. Children in Africa are not receiving life-saving vaccines because adults are being told that vaccines are a conspiracy against them by the white man. Polio is eradicated in the Western hemisphere. Smallpox is eradicated from the planet. And still people refuse to believe the truth right in front of their eyes. Vaccines work. You think that the 20-something vaccines out now is a massive burden on young kids? Do you know how many germs, viruses, bacteria, parasites kids are exposed to every single day? And you think 20-something different vaccinations, not all given at once, but in tried and tested intervals, are the bigger danger? You cried about thimerosal - a wonderful preservative that enabled vaccines to remain stable and effective in particular in regions of the world where refrigeration would not be possible (like Africa) - and for your belly-aching, thimerosal has been phased out. And nothing changed. Not a damn thing. Just like we told you it wouldn't, because thimerosal is perfectly safe in the ridiculously small amount that was found in vaccines. And now it is harder to keep vaccines stable. And still you find some other falsehood to blame this all on. It will never change.

I don't mind it so much if you refuse it for yourselves. It's your life - just stay away from me when you come down with a contagion that could have been prevented, and stay away from young children, the elderly, and the immunocompromised who are left vulnerable. But when children have to suffer as well for your irrational fear, that is wrong.

And that is the last. Go back to being understanding of irrationality.


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## Marinera

DrMike said:


> Says the people who luckily benefited from parents and ancestors who didn't have the sage irrational fear. There is clearly a lack of understanding regarding the development of vaccines and their safety. And when you think everything is a conspiracy to hurt you for profit, logic has gone out the window. Yes - thousands and thousands of doctors, researchers, pharmaceutical execs, government agencies are all consulting together just so a few execs can get rich (goodness knows I haven't received my paycheck yet for my part in the cover up). Don't trust any of us. Trust Andrew Wakefield, who was trying to make a profit off of his anti-vax campaign when it was shown he made up data, was performing unnecessary invasive procedures on children, and outright lying. Or trust the TV producer whose job it is to find monsters in closets so he can get rich off of sensationalism. Those two clearly know so much more than all the rest of us.


Exactly! You said so yourself - your paycheck is not big enough to access classified information :lol:


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## DaveM

Physicians routinely rank in the top 5 most trusted professions which when you think of it, is quite an accomplishment given how often people who are not feeling well, having symptoms that they fear may be serious or who have life-endangering diseases are seeing them. Overall, they must be doing something right to still maintain the trust of most people.

Incidentally, nurses often rate number one which I totally agree with. They are some of the most caring people on the planet. Most people having surgery will not remember much about their O.R. nurses, but they are some of the most accomplished and important professionals in the medical profession and are critical in the optimal performance of surgeons and anesthesiologists.


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## wkasimer

tdc said:


> Questions have been raised about the money in vaccines. When people are not outright charged they are paying for them through health insurance and/or taxation. I assure you that there are people getting very rich off vaccines..


If the pharmaceutical companies really cared that much about money, they'd stop producing vaccines altogether, because the drugs needed to treat the diseases prevented cost much more, by several orders of magnitude.


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## Guest

Why shouldn't a pharmaceutical company make money? If they gave vaccines away for free, they would have no money to pay for developing a new vaccine. Why is it every other company in the world can make money, but if a pharmaceutical company makes money, it is evil. And for those arguing this,may I ask if you were ever paid for your work, or did you go through life doing work for others for free? If you were paid for your work, I would suggest you are just as evil as you allege the pharmaceutical companies of being. You were exploiting others for your own gain. You must have had nefarious motives. Honest people don't ask people to pay them.


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## starthrower

Apparently the Italian government doesn't believe in vaccines.
https://www.newsweek.com/anti-vaccine-italian-government-sacks-entire-health-expert-board-1242759


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## Marinera

Well, since the topic of this thread is flu vaccines, I have no doubt that pharmaceutical industry is aware of the simplest and most efficient flu preventive - hydrogen peroxide. At the first symptoms of flu, like a tickle in the throat, etc., a drop of 3%-1.5%(children) hydrogen peroxide into the ear/ears or gargling 1.5% hydrogen peroxide (food grade) solution stops colds and flus immediately. It's also said that hp alleviates the symptoms if you're already sick and you recover quicker ( I personally haven't tried this, for I haven't got the flu since I started using hydrogen peroxide as a preventive measure before if really starts).
This is natural, safe solution with no side effects to health, the only by product of hp after it breaks down is water (extra oxygen molecule kills bacteria, the other molecules left are water). There's enough information if you search about it and hows and whys. It's cheap, no harmful side effects while even the least harmful drug in industry penicillin has shown to have lingering side effects for some time even after one tablet. The question remains why to push drugs and vaccines with all that massive advertising across media and not the most obvious solution? Well first of all there's no money in it, and also it won't pay for the advertising. Secondly, pharma (to sustain itself, if you like it) has to produce a product. A product that's patentable. This means it has to have formulas, a number of ingredients and some such. You can't patent hydrogen peroxide or say beetroot ant sell it as a drug/medicine. Whatever findings they get through their research the aim is not to bring natural solutions to health problems that are immediately available to everyone. That's why drugs and vaccines with side effects worse than what they're curing will always be the number one solution in pharmaceutical industry, there will be ton's of approved research to confirm it's 'safe and effective', and thus it will be the first solution to your health problems you get from a medical professional. Meanwhile, the natural product and their combinations as a cure from disease will have a note saying that there wasn't enough research done to confirm its effectiveness and safety. And of course why should there be any research done into this or if done, the conclusive results published and promoted. This won't ever sustain the pharmaceutical industry and never mind the profits. People will just go then buy natural products like fruits, vegetables and hydrogen peroxide or at best make some herb tinctures from free and low cost ingredients. 
Also, I believe approach to health has to be hollistic, because many ills are the chain reaction, and drugs often treat just symptoms and tend to be a superficial stopgap solution, not really curing the root of the problem. It's all a bit abstract and of course not in every case it is that simplistic, however, in the case of flu I believe it is. The conclusion here is just common sense. However, if you're proactive about your health and also finding answers, there's plenty more informtion out there that's even less complimentary to the flu vaccines in particular and phamaceutical industry in general than my old good common sense have been here.


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## Bwv 1080

Nope, that is pure quackery. Hydrogen peroxide does not cure or prevent flu

And hopefully no one is taking medical advice from randos on a music forum

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/hydrogen-peroxide/


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## Strange Magic

According to the hydrogen peroxide theory of prevention and cure, the easy treatments for Zika, Ebola, HIV, Lyme disease, dengue fever, Malaria, etc. have been there all along. Amazing. Who knew? Anybody remember poliomyelitis?


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## starthrower

That would be amazing if HP could ward off over 200 strains of infection. In past centuries deadly epidemics swept continents. In the 20th century we made great progress (minus two world wars) and now in the 21st the internet epidemic of ignorance is turning back the clock .


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## jenspen

Strange Magic said:


> According to the hydrogen peroxide theory of prevention and cure, the easy treatments for Zika, Ebola, HIV, Lyme disease, dengue fever, Malaria, etc. have been there all along. Amazing. Who knew? Anybody remember poliomyelitis?


I know the question is rhetorical but it has sent me on a trip down memory lane - older kids in my town getting it (and the Walsh boy over the back dying of it), the swimming pool closed....fear... no memory of a Hydrogen Peroxide cure but of us little kids being lined up in a big hall to be vaccinated (did we *eat* the vaccine or is that a false memory?).

Either way, only the children of Afghanistan, Pakistan and Nigeria will currently be able to lay down those memories, and they'd better hurry.

And I remember that you could tell all the "migrant" kids at primary school by the the unsightly marks of the smallpox vaccination injections on their upper arms. Somebody said, and I have just verified, that the Wikipedia article on smallpox begins:

"Smallpox was an infectious disease..."


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## Marinera

Bwv 1080 said:


> Nope, that is pure quackery. Hydrogen peroxide does not cure or prevent flu
> 
> And hopefullly no on is taking medical advice from randos on a music forum
> 
> https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/hydrogen-peroxide/


Firstly, this kept me flu free for some time so this 'quackery' suits my health. Secondly, this is not an advice column, I just shared my reasons for voting 'never' and 'don't trust medical practitioners' with some of my thoughts on it and staying on topic generally. This is what this thread is for. I am not here to evangelise and convert people to my tent of quackery belief. There are also medical professional's with high scientific/medical credentials who support this theory ..can't recollect their names right away, there's plenty of info if you search it. I 'm not bothered what everyone else does or takes to prevent flu, not my business.



> According to the hydrogen peroxide theory of prevention and cure, the easy treatments for Zika, Ebola, HIV, Lyme disease, dengue fever, Malaria, etc. have been there all along. Amazing. Who knew? Anybody remember poliomyelitis?


The subject was for cold/flu.

Don't care about polemics.

Side note: there's been done a quite resent research with hydrogen peroxide as a platform for vaccines as a safer option, I don't know what's status now. There's safe and safer apparently.


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## wkasimer

jenspen said:


> (did we *eat* the vaccine or is that a false memory?).


I think that you're right. It's one of my first memories, drinking a pink liquid during a vaccination campaign in New Haven.


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## starthrower

> Firstly, this kept me flu free for some time so this 'quackery' suits my health. Secondly, this is not an advice column, I just shared my reasons for voting 'never' and 'don't trust medical practitioners' with some of my thoughts on it and staying on topic generally.


How do you know for certain that it was the peroxide that kept you from getting the flu? I don't use peroxide and I never got the flu until age 53 when I had a friend staying with me who got it and infected me.

And why a blanket distrust of medical practitioners? I recently had to find a new GP. The first doctor I went to see I didn't like. I tried somebody else and my new doctor is a great guy that I trust. There's good and bad in every profession. I've had the same experience with dentists and surgeons. The doctors that don't listen, don't communicate well, and can't make a diagnosis are the bad ones. As well as the surgeons that pressure people to go right into surgery.


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## LezLee

wkasimer said:


> I think that you're right. It's one of my first memories, drinking a pink liquid during a vaccination campaign in New Haven.


I remember the polio vaccine being infused into a sugar cube which was placed on the tongue. I was at school so it must have been the early '50s.


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## Guest

Marinera said:


> Well, since the topic of this thread is flu vaccines, I have no doubt that pharmaceutical industry is aware of the simplest and most efficient flu preventive - hydrogen peroxide. At the first symptoms of flu, like a tickle in the throat, etc., a drop of 3%-1.5%(children) hydrogen peroxide into the ear/ears or gargling 1.5% hydrogen peroxide (food grade) solution stops colds and flus immediately. It's also said that hp alleviates the symptoms if you're already sick and you recover quicker ( I personally haven't tried this, for I haven't got the flu since I started using hydrogen peroxide as a preventive measure before if really starts).
> This is natural, safe solution with no side effects to health, the only by product of hp after it breaks down is water (extra oxygen molecule kills bacteria, the other molecules left are water). There's enough information if you search about it and hows and whys. It's cheap, no harmful side effects while even the least harmful drug in industry penicillin has shown to have lingering side effects for some time even after one tablet. The question remains why to push drugs and vaccines with all that massive advertising across media and not the most obvious solution? Well first of all there's no money in it, and also it won't pay for the advertising. Secondly, pharma (to sustain itself, if you like it) has to produce a product. A product that's patentable. This means it has to have formulas, a number of ingredients and some such. You can't patent hydrogen peroxide or say beetroot ant sell it as a drug/medicine. Whatever findings they get through their research the aim is not to bring natural solutions to health problems that are immediately available to everyone. That's why drugs and vaccines with side effects worse than what they're curing will always be the number one solution in pharmaceutical industry, there will be ton's of approved research to confirm it's 'safe and effective', and thus it will be the first solution to your health problems you get from a medical professional. Meanwhile, the natural product and their combinations as a cure from disease will have a note saying that there wasn't enough research done to confirm its effectiveness and safety. And of course why should there be any research done into this or if done, the conclusive results published and promoted. This won't ever sustain the pharmaceutical industry and never mind the profits. People will just go then buy natural products like fruits, vegetables and hydrogen peroxide or at best make some herb tinctures from free and low cost ingredients.
> Also, I believe approach to health has to be hollistic, because many ills are the chain reaction, and drugs often treat just symptoms and tend to be a superficial stopgap solution, not really curing the root of the problem. It's all a bit abstract and of course not in every case it is that simplistic, however, in the case of flu I believe it is. The conclusion here is just common sense. However, if you're proactive about your health and also finding answers, there's plenty more informtion out there that's even less complimentary to the flu vaccines in particular and phamaceutical industry in general than my old good common sense have been here.


I just can't even...


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## Guest

There were two polio vaccines, one developed by Salk, and the other by Sabin, and one was indeed oral.


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## Guest

Yep. It was brilliant. What better way to ease the mind of kids.


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## SixFootScowl

I am open to natural remedies but just have not seen much research to back them and I am not sure why that is. Colloidal silver can kill certain germs by binding to and destroying proteins. But I keep seeing there is not much research done on it to show if it is effective. A shame that there is not impetus for medical researchers to pursue this further. 

As for flu shots and other immunizations, the theory is great: give a person something that will build their natural resistance. That is great, but where it seems to fall apart is the delivery is corrupted with various substances, preservatives, etc. that complicate things. Additionally, in the case of flu shots, they target what they determine statistically to be the most likely strains and that may not be very effective unless the real world of flu virus actually follows that path.


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## Guest

Fritz Kobus said:


> I am open to natural remedies but just have not seen much research to back them and I am not sure why that is. Colloidal silver can kill certain germs by binding to and destroying proteins. But I keep seeing there is not much research done on it to show if it is effective. A shame that there is not impetus for medical researchers to pursue this further.
> 
> As for flu shots and other immunizations, the theory is great: give a person something that will build their natural resistance. That is great, but where it seems to fall apart is the delivery is corrupted with various substances, preservatives, etc. that complicate things. Additionally, in the case of flu shots, they target what they determine statistically to be the most likely strains and that may not be very effective unless the real world of flu virus actually follows that path.


You have to include preservatives, otherwise these things break down quickly, especially in warmer climates where refrigeration is much more problematic.

Like it or not, that is how we have to make flu vaccines. You need time to ramp up flu vaccine production - you can't simply have them ready at a moment's notice. We are talking millions of doses. And that is not a bad strategy. But we are looking for better options - vaccines that have broader protection. Additionally, not all immunity is as long-lasting as others. Immunity to flu is in this category. Even if you naturally catch the flu, your immunity to subsequent infection is not as good as against other infections. Again - how to prime the most optimal immune response with great memory is an ongoing area of research. We are exploring all avenues. Immunity to influenza is a huge field of research.

Natural remedies - where to start. First, the hydrogen peroxide hypothesis (I use that term very loosely) is just utterly absurd. That isn't how the flu virus works. Upon being exposed to the flu virus, the virus enters into cells of the upper respiratory tract. Even if you could flush that entire area with hydrogen peroxide, the virus is safely inside the cells. Flushing the upper respiratory tract with hydrochloric acid might be effective - it could certainly eliminate those virus-infected cells - but those are some really bad side effects. Maybe if you were constantly sniffing hydrogen peroxide, all day, every day, you might catch the virus before it is able to infect a cell. You can understand why that might not be a workable solution?

Colloidal silver is not as wonderful a treatment as you might think. Look, the simple fact of the matter is that prevention is infinitely preferable to curing. Once an infection has a foothold, even if it can be effectively controlled, it is still going to cause some harm. It is much better to prevent it from ever being able to infect.


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## Strange Magic

wkasimer said:


> I think that you're right. It's one of my first memories, drinking a pink liquid during a vaccination campaign in New Haven.


The Sabin polio vaccine was administered on a sugar cube, as I recall.


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## philoctetes

One typical pattern for me is a sore throat followed by bronchial infection. This is not the same as a flu, but it seems to lower my immunity so that sometimes it becomes the flu. I had these infections every winter as a kid exposed to harsh outdoor weather. And I had my vaccinations.

I've learned to recognize the sore throat condition when it develops. I can often stop it by ingesting garlic. Who cares what my breath smells like. Hot peppers can also knock it out. Never tried HP but the principle sounds similar - help the initial infection heal before it gets much worse. There may be other natural ways to slow down superficial infections. The epithelium is our first guard against these attacks, and taking care of it can't hurt.

I recognize the flu when I feel a sensation like the onset of a chill, about an hour before the fever actually hits. If I load up on aspirin and stay very warm I can "sweat it out" overnight. I know this is not modern science but experience is not a bad substitute. I imagine this would have been standard procedure in the old days before vaccines, and before our lifestyles made us more reliable on convenient health solutions.

The main thing is to not spread whatever you have to other people. Those who get their vaccines but still show up to school or work with a contagious infection are too common.


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## wkasimer

philoctetes said:


> One typical pattern for me is a sore throat followed by bronchial infection. This is not the same as a flu, but it seems to lower my immunity so that sometimes it becomes the flu. I had these infections every winter as a kid exposed to harsh outdoor weather. And I had my vaccinations.


How do you know that it's "flu"? Not every respiratory infection is caused by the influenza virus.



> I've learned to recognize the sore throat condition when it develops. I can often stop it by ingesting garlic. Who cares what my breath smells like. Hot peppers can also knock it out. Never tried HP but the principle sounds similar -


And so is the efficacy - zero.


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## Guest

philoctetes said:


> One typical pattern for me is a sore throat followed by bronchial infection. This is not the same as a flu, but it seems to lower my immunity so that sometimes it becomes the flu. I had these infections every winter as a kid exposed to harsh outdoor weather. And I had my vaccinations.
> 
> I've learned to recognize the sore throat condition when it develops. I can often stop it by ingesting garlic. Who cares what my breath smells like. Hot peppers can also knock it out. Never tried HP but the principle sounds similar - help the initial infection heal before it gets much worse. There may be other natural ways to slow down superficial infections. The epithelium is our first guard against these attacks, and taking care of it can't hurt.
> 
> I recognize the flu when I feel a sensation like the onset of a chill, about an hour before the fever actually hits. If I load up on aspirin and stay very warm I can "sweat it out" overnight. I know this is not modern science but experience is not a bad substitute. I imagine this would have been standard procedure in the old days before vaccines, and before our lifestyles made us more reliable on convenient health solutions.
> 
> The main thing is to not spread whatever you have to other people. Those who get their vaccines but still show up to school or work with a contagious infection are too common.


Nope. Aspirin does nothing to the flu other than ease symptoms. Garlic does nothing. A sore throat does not "turn into" the flu. The flu is not just a bad cold. Hot peppers do nothing. You can't "sweat out" the flu. But you know what? Garlic and hot peppers are harmless. If you want to consume them, knock yourself out. I wouldn't recommend loading up on aspirin too often, but aspirin does have lots of benefits - as a diabetic, I take a low-dose aspirin regimen. But it does nothing for flu prevention.

It is true that some infections can leave you open to others, depending on the situation. But if you start early on with . . . symptoms that are consistent with the flu, and over time it turns out that you have the flu (and not just a bad cold), it could just be that it was always the flu to begin with.


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## DaveM

Speaking of vaccines, the earliest was for smallpox and was discovered in 1796. It was created from the cowpox virus which didn’t cause disease in humans, but when administered as a vaccine did confer immunity to smallpox. Smallpox was declared eradicated in 1980. Most baby-boomers have the distinctive circular small scar (about 1/4 inch in diameter) from vaccination on the upper arm almost at the shoulder level.


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## Marinera

starthrower said:


> How do you know for certain that it was the peroxide that kept you from getting the flu? I don't use peroxide and I never got the flu until age 53 when I had a friend staying with me who got it and infected me.
> 
> And why a blanket distrust of medical practitioners? I recently had to find a new GP. The first doctor I went to see I didn't like. I tried somebody else and my new doctor is a great guy that I trust. There's good and bad in every profession. I've had the same experience with dentists and surgeons. The doctors that don't listen, don't communicate well, and can't make a diagnosis are the bad ones. As well as the surgeons that pressure people to go right into surgery.


My dad never gets a flu, he's in his mid 70's and last year was the first time in years he caught it, the other time he got it was sometime in 90's. I don't know how people don't get sick with flu, good immune systems perhaps. For me not to catch a flu is unprecedented. I have been getting flu every year at least once a year since I remember. The year I've found out that hydrogen peroxide might help, I was sick five times. That was one of the most exhausting and miserable years health wise I've ever had. Three times of those were definitely flu, I caught them from people around me. Once was a cold and another time who knows - it was over 20 degrees Celsius mid September and I can't remember anyone sneezing around either, maybe some virus in the public space. So the first signs of flu/cold became very familiar to me over that year. Usually I have an unpleasant feeling at the back of my throat, something like a sore throat, that's often accompanied by and earache. The first time I decided to try it because I didn't see how it can be harmful anyway, at worst I thought I'd get good mouth swish. I began feeling symptoms less than two months after I was sick for the fifth time. I gargled at least couple times a day for four days, but the throat still felt off. It was a bit worse in the mornings and in the evenings, but hadn't progressed into anything worse. So on the fifth day I tried 3% hp drops in one ear. Allowed it to work for twenty minutes until it fizzled out, the ear got clogged some, therefore I was busy trying to unclog it, so only after about 20 minutes I noticed that the sore feeling in my throat disappeared completely. All in one morning. I was battling it with gargling for the better half of the week and I'm quite sure if I hadn't gargled to stop it I would had been sick. The eardrops I found the most effective, but sometimes gargling is enough. This was not the only instance, just the first. Last year I had to do this quite often. This year just twice, and both times a throat treatment was enough. Incidentally hp good for earaches as well.

Regarding the distrust of medical practitioners, I don't distrust them personally per se. I have family members and relatives that work in hospitals after all. It's just that I see that healing options and solutions in the field are geared towards drug prescriptions. Even when they are not the only or the best options available. For example my seemingly random reference about the beetroot in the earlier post. The week before, I had the conversation with my dad and as it became usual these days it was about health and acquaintances. He told me about someone my mother knows, who was in poor health, required 24/7 assistance and she also had a very bad blood, low red cell count, and there was a talk about prescribing drugs to improve her blood. I was surprised, I know beetroot does a good job at improving blood. I said this to my dad and he recalled that indeed he ate beetroot to improve his blood to pass blood test that he failed before, for his job, it required a perfect health. But of course medicines are more convenient for nurse to dole out to the patient than to prepare beetroots for a month. So likewise the doctor gives you prescription for drugs instead of saying go eat some beetroot for several weeks. The first instinct is to look at the list of drugs or vitamins at best. I believe it is just how they are educated and the first solution tends to be drugs. I see medical field and pharmaceutical industry as pyramid. Doctors are the base. Solutions, research, directions, regulations and education come from the top. I don't fully trust that top and few other layers. Regarding doctors, my father likes his doctor and I like his doctor very well, although my father never takes any drugs either, except one herbal tincture for the heart. There are situations when doctors do a good job and diagnose and act very promptly for example his doctor had to prescribed antibiotic treatment(shots) for my dads leg infection, and that had to be done and obviously appendicitis has to be removed if there's inflammation. Like I said in my earlier post not everything is simple. However, don't get me started on flu. I remember I was a bit angry as well that I could've avoided being so sick for almost a whole year altogether if only I knew. So, that's why I wrote that earlier post I suppose. I kind of wondered at it myself. I am all for allowing people decide for themselves and accept or reject anything on their own terms, but the options and knowledge should be out there more readily available to even have an option to decide. The drops in the ears at worst would clean them and also it isn't dangerous if you don't swallow, the same as mouthwash perhaps, so I didn't have any qualms about posting some information on hydrogen peroxide treatment. 
Sorry for a very long reply, it's probably more than you bargained for.


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## Guest

DaveM said:


> Speaking of vaccines, the earliest was for smallpox and was discovered in 1796. It was created from the cowpox virus which didn't cause disease in humans, but when administered as a vaccine did confer immunity to smallpox. Smallpox was declared eradicated in 1980. Most baby-boomers have the distinctive circular small scar (about 1/4 inch in diameter) from vaccination on the upper arm almost at the shoulder level.


Close - smallpox did cause disease in humans, but Jenner observed that the disease that milkmaids would get resembled smallpox, but was significantly milder, left none of the lasting scarring of smallpox, and those women did not seem to ever contract smallpox. He inoculated with pus from a cowpox pustule, and proved that person was then protected against smallpox - in a very immoral experiment, it must be said. He inoculated an orphan child with the cowpox, and then later purposely exposed him to smallpox. The boy was perfectly fine, but that still doesn't justify it. We are indebted to that boy. Incidentally, they had been doing similar things long before then, but inoculating with ground up scabs of actual smallpox pustules. This was observed being done in the Ottoman Empire and introduced to Europe through there. It was not nearly as good a technique as Jenner's "vaccine" but there was a better rate of survival than natural infection. The people would still get sick, but usually a weaker infection.

As an interesting tidbit - they have analyzed the genetic material of the smallpox vaccine, named Vaccinia, and determined that it probably isn't cowpox. More than likely, the current thinking is it might have been some kind of horsepox virus. Although I am not a baby boomer, I actually have the scar as well. In a couple of my labs I have worked with the vaccine strain, Vaccinia, and so I had to be vaccinated. Not the most pleasant of vaccines. Since it is a live, non-attenuated virus, it actually does make you sick. I was laid up about a week. Still not the worst vaccine I've had - I also had to get the Anthrax vaccine. That one is miserable, but my line of work requires more vaccinations than the average person.


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## SixFootScowl

Some of this goes back to 1976 and the fear of a Swine Flu epidemic. My dad wanted a shot but was legally blind so could not drive. Me, being a long-haired disrespectful teen at the time, kept putting it off and then the news stories came rolling in about people having extreme adverse reactions and he was glad I never too him in for a shot.


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## philoctetes

The reactions to my post are exactly what I expected and show why people don't trust doctors. You experts have been trolled and it doesn't look good for you. Apparently you have reading and listening deficiencies that the rest of us don't have.

I'm a math and physics geek. I also have a lot of pre-med school. I hate doctors, they don't have to be perfect like hard scientists do. We can't get away with the BS they do. I knew one exception in San Jose but he's no longer available.My current GP is a mean old hag who can't be trusted. That doesn't make my alternatives better, it just means the industry is far from acceptable for some of us. I had pre-meds for roommates and I'm not a fool. I've taught stats to pre-meds and know what cheaters they are. Don't get me started on the prescription scams..

I had problems in my 50s. Self-induced. I'm glad I didn't report them to a doctor. Now I'm 65 years old, take no scripts. Up to date on all tests. Run 15 miles a week. Must be doing something right.

In short, medicine is potentially a great science but is allowed to practice without the kind of rigor at the client end that other sciences would never accept. Nor is everything OK on the upstream side.


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## starthrower

philoctetes said:


> I had problems in my 50s. Self-induced. I'm glad I didn't report them to a doctor. Now I'm 65 years old, take no scripts. Up to date on all tests. Run 15 miles a week. Must be doing something right.


Exercise is the most important thing for staying healthy. Of course it causes injuries from time to time. But I'll never give up my gym membership. I feel good after a workout. My father is 84, works out 4-5 days a week. He weighs a 153 lbs and takes no meds.


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## philoctetes

starthrower said:


> Exercise is the most important thing for staying healthy. Of course it causes injuries from time to time. But I'll never give up my gym membership. I feel good after a workout. My father is 84, works out 4-5 days a week. He weighs a 153 lbs and takes no meds.


Exercise is #1 life-saver. I've been telling people I just joined Medicare. They tell me about people my age who are almost dead. I might be one of those if not for exercising all my life.

I had to find a GM under pressure a few years ago. I wont tell the whole story but I had a minor problem that cost me a couple thousand dollars for nothing. I told her what I thought was happening and she didn't listen. Instead she regarded me very judgmentally as a person and sent me off to get a full panel of blood tests, especially concerned that I might have Hep C (for no reason except that I'm an old hippie). I also had to get an ultrasound image. Makes a lot of sense huh?

None of the test came up with anything. I was relieved but she was not. So I just never went back and the problem went away as I expected, since it was nothing but a nutrition matter. Symptoms related to diets are the Achilles heel of the medical profession. They simply deny that such things are possible.

I have gout sometimes. I know what causes it and what to avoid. Try asking your doctor about that and see what answers you get. But it's the dermatologist that I really have to worry about, she missed the one spot that tested positive after I pointed it out to her. Now she scrapes something off once a year for the tune of a thousand apiece. Nothing since the first one, the one she didn't see.


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## Guest

philoctetes said:


> The reactions to my post are exactly what I expected and show why people don't trust doctors. You experts have been trolled and it doesn't look good for you. Apparently you have reading and listening deficiencies that the rest of us don't have.
> 
> I'm a math and physics geek. I also have a lot of pre-med school. I hate doctors, they don't have to be perfect like hard scientists do. We can't get away with the BS they do. I knew one exception in San Jose but he's no longer available.My current GP is a mean old hag who can't be trusted. That doesn't make my alternatives better, it just means the industry is far from acceptable for some of us. I had pre-meds for roommates and I'm not a fool. I've taught stats to pre-meds and know what cheaters they are. Don't get me started on the prescription scams..
> 
> I had problems in my 50s. Self-induced. I'm glad I didn't report them to a doctor. Now I'm 65 years old, take no scripts. Up to date on all tests. Run 15 miles a week. Must be doing something right.
> 
> In short, medicine is potentially a great science but is allowed to practice without the kind of rigor at the client end that other sciences would never accept. Nor is everything OK on the upstream side.


Well you are in luck - I'm not an MD, I'm what you would call a "hard scientist" with a PhD in Microbiology, specializing in Immunology. I have experience with research in HIV, hepatitis C, and influenza (those are just the human pathogens I've worked with - I did my dissertation research on LCMV, a virus closely related to Lassa Fever Virus). Doctors don't make vaccines. "Hard scientists" like myself research how the immune response to various pathogens work, find out what parts of the virus/bacteria/parasite are targeted by the immune system, and devise strategies to formulate those into a vaccine. The big companies come in handy for figuring out how to make them deliverable and stable, and then mass producing (your average "hard science" lab doesn't have the means for large scale vaccine production). The hard scientists then team up with clinicians (MDs) to run clinical trials once we have sufficient clearance from government oversight agencies and local IRB boards that ensure the trials are done in the most ethical way possible. The trials are blinded. Those who see the results don't know which patients were given the actual vaccine vs. those given placebo. It is a very lengthy, and expensive, procedure.

Not knowing the full rundown of why your doctor wanted you tested for hepatitis C, I do have some experience in this area. Hepatitis C typically does not manifest as anything more, initially, than a bad cold or mild flu-like symptoms. But 80% of those infected will develop a chronic infection - it remains with you for life - that is largely asymptomatic. The problem is that while you may not feel sick, over decades, it eats away at your liver, as well as increases your risk for liver cancer. It is the number one cause of liver transplants. You said you were a hippy back in the day. If you ever used injectable drugs, that puts you in the group at highest risk of contracting hepatitis C - it is bloodborne. There was a time where hemophiliacs were also at high risk, before we knew how to really screen the blood supply used for infusions. That hasn't been an issue, though, for decades. Now - at least in the U.S. - it is primarily a concern in i.v. drug users. If you had no experience with either of those things, then yes, it is possible your doctor didn't know what she was doing. It happens. I had a doctor once tell me I had hep C because of elevated liver enzyme levels. I told him no, I'm diabetic, my blood sugars have not been controlled, and that is the most likely explanation. I knew I had no exposure to hep C, even though I worked with it. He did a blood test, and sure enough, I was right. So I switched doctors to one who knew what they were talking about. Just because someone has an MD doesn't mean they are infallible. Still, they are more likely to be able to help you than the person telling you to gargle hydrogen peroxide to treat the flu, or pouring hydrogen peroxide in your ear (???????? the flu virus does not infect any cells in the ear canal, nor can it even enter the body through the ear, and the cells that it infects are far too down in the respiratory tract for any kind of gargling to get anywhere near!).


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## Guest

philoctetes said:


> Exercise is #1 life-saver. I've been telling people I just joined Medicare. They tell me about people my age who are almost dead. I might be one of those if not for exercising all my life.
> 
> I had to find a GM under pressure a few years ago. I wont tell the whole story but I had a minor problem that cost me a couple thousand dollars for nothing. I told her what I thought was happening and she didn't listen. Instead she regarded me very judgmentally as a person and sent me off to get a full panel of blood tests, especially concerned that I might have Hep C (for no reason except that I'm an old hippie). I also had to get an ultrasound image. Makes a lot of sense huh?
> 
> None of the test came up with anything. I was relieved but she was not. So I just never went back and the problem went away as I expected, since it was nothing but a nutrition matter. Symptoms related to diets are the Achilles heel of the medical profession. They simply deny that such things are possible.
> 
> I have gout sometimes. I know what causes it and what to avoid. Try asking your doctor about that and see what answers you get. But it's the dermatologist that I really have to worry about, she missed the one spot that tested positive after I pointed it out to her. Now she scrapes something off once a year for the tune of a thousand apiece. Nothing since the first one, the one she didn't see.


Exercise and diet are the best things a person can do to remain in peak physical condition. It is true that lots of infections are much more of a factor for those in poor health, immunocompromised (HIV+, or organ transplant patients on immunosuppressive drugs), the very young and the very old. Those in peak health are going to be more resistant. But that is not an absolute rule, and many infections will take down those in peak health just as easily as those who aren't. And so vaccines are a critical line of defense. There is also others to consider. You may get infected and clear it very quickly - the ideal situation - and not be set back that much. But while you are infected, you can spread it to others, others who aren't as well equipped to fight off infection. This is the concept of herd immunity. If enough people are vaccinated, the entire population is protected. Think of it like the old Greek phalanx. Those on the perimeter need to be fully armed and shielded as defense against the enemy, while those in the interior of the phalanx, or near the back, are at least initially protected by those closer to the action. No sword is going to strike a man at the back of the phalanx, unless surrounded. Same concept with herd immunity. If a critical mass of people is vaccinated, the infection is not allowed a foothold, and so those who can't be vaccinated are protected.


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## Bwv 1080

the human body is way more complex than anything studied in physics and of course you cannot just experiment freely on people so medicine will never be a hard science.


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## philoctetes

Bwv 1080 said:


> the human body is way more complex than anything studied in physics and of course you cannot just experiment freely on people so medicine will never be a hard science.


I get that. To borrow terms from a famous probabilist, the med field is full of black swans and fat tails. And the doctor has no skin in the game. Hence doctors should be more humble. Instead they enjoy unlimited error tolerance (they stay rich whether right or wrong) while calling their patients stupid.

Maybe another subtopic will help: My GF is an OT (doctor's acronym for stupid) and sees fraud in the industry every day. Charges to insurance for services never rendered. She has had to quit several jobs to avoid this.

Of course I don't claim that fraud is unique to medicine. No it's everywhere, literally, including the engineering sector. I recognize fraud easily because I've seen so much of it, and it's a global epidemic in every institution right now, from government to laboratories. Nobody is immune to fraud, pun intended


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## SixFootScowl

starthrower said:


> Exercise is the most important thing for staying healthy. Of course it causes injuries from time to time. But I'll never give up my gym membership. I feel good after a workout. My father is 84, works out 4-5 days a week. He weighs a 153 lbs and takes no meds.


Running can be hard on the joints. I was a runner in the late 70s and 1980s and the initial impetus was that I had gone up to a fatty 235 pounds in my later teens. One day I started a crash diet of about 300-500 calories a day and 4 miles a day not to mention cigarettes and about 7 cups of coffee a day, and lost 60 pounds in two months. Insane but I never ever hit 200 pounds again and now reside around the mid 180s at 6'1" tall. Thankfully, no cigarettes since 1979.

My cardiologist recommends walking and a fair amount of it, with a faster pace being preferred. My wife and I try to get in a walk daily. Also I have to half-mile walks to and from the office daily from my parking location. I have always valued that.

Exercise the body, exercise the mind, and eat a healthful diet. I hate vegetables, but my wife makes sure I get plenty of them.


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## philoctetes

Mary Shelley was on to something. I don't advocate avoiding doctors for everything, but knowing how to care for myself whenever possible has been worth a lot. Better than taking my chances with someone who doesn't listen or know me. 

We also have more resources for self-diagnosis than ever online. This leads to us to the imminance of Ai for diagnosis in the future. AI / decision theory is the field I worked in so now we are on my turf, and that of the software / robotics industry. These things SHOULD make medicine much more affordable to everybody... and I assume you experts OK with being replaced by "expert systems"... ha. Software so cheap to reproduce, while machines are expensive, yet we'll see that the software developers continue to out-profit the machine makers.

The likelihood is that these industries combined will falsely justify even more $$$ for their services, even with no humans involved at the client end. It shouldn't be that way, but unless the software industry is reined back somehow, it's going to become an unwanted gatekeeper of all intellectual property. Between being treated by a "cloud" of actuarial systems or some hag making value judgments about me, I might prefer the cloud, but it would be little more reassuring if it's just as much of a black box as the doctor's head. So Sarah Palin was on to something too.


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## philoctetes

Fritz Kobus said:


> Running can be hard on the joints. I was a runner in the late 70s and 1980s and the initial impetus was that I had gone up to a fatty 235 pounds in my later teens. One day I started a crash diet of about 300-500 calories a day and 4 miles a day not to mention cigarettes and about 7 cups of coffee a day, and lost 60 pounds in two months. Insane but I never ever hit 200 pounds again and now reside around the mid 180s at 6'1" tall. Thankfully, no cigarettes since 1979.
> 
> My cardiologist recommends walking and a fair amount of it, with a faster pace being preferred. My wife and I try to get in a walk daily. Also I have to half-mile walks to and from the office daily from my parking location. I have always valued that.
> 
> Exercise the body, exercise the mind, and eat a healthful diet. I hate vegetables, but my wife makes sure I get plenty of them.


I have a bad hip and knee on the right side, ski accident 35 years ago. Two torn ligaments, torn cartiledge and possibly some cracked bones. The pain and swelling got so bad recently I had to take a break. Going to SF this weekend and will get to run on the beach, barefoot. Yeah! If it goes well I may go skiing later this month...

Some people walk almost as fast as I run...


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## SixFootScowl

Bwv 1080 said:


> the human body is way more complex than anything studied in physics and of course you cannot just experiment freely on people so medicine will never be a hard science.


Consider how hard it is to find a mechanic who can fix your car which is stupidly simple compared to the human body, and while doctors certainly get a lot more education than the average mechanic, you have to wonder how many doctors are really competent.


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## Bwv 1080

philoctetes said:


> I get that. To borrow terms from a famous probabilist, the med field is full of black swans and fat tails. And the doctor has no skin in the game. Hence doctors should be more humble. Instead they enjoy unlimited error tolerance (they stay rich whether right or wrong) while calling their patients stupid.
> 
> Maybe another subtopic will help: My GF is an OT (doctor's acronym for stupid) and sees fraud in the industry every day. Charges to insurance for services never rendered. She has had to quit several jobs to avoid this.
> 
> Of course I don't claim that fraud is unique to medicine. No it's everywhere, literally, including the engineering sector. I recognize fraud easily because I've seen so much of it, and it's a global epidemic in every institution right now, from government to laboratories. Nobody is immune to fraud, pun intended


Yes, but Roubini's crusade against GMOs is on the same crank level as antivax quackery. Sad that he has degenerated into such an arrogant prick and Twitter troll


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## DaveM

philoctetes said:


> And the doctor has no skin in the game. Hence doctors should be more humble. Instead they enjoy unlimited error tolerance...


Not true. They can suffer consequences which are more serious the more hi-risk the specialty.



> I recognize fraud easily because I've seen so much of it..
> 
> ...I have gout sometimes. I know what causes it and what to avoid. Try asking your doctor about that and see what answers you get. But it's the dermatologist that I really have to worry about, she missed the one spot that tested positive after I pointed it out to her.
> 
> I had pre-meds for roommates and I'm not a fool. I've taught stats to pre-meds and know what cheaters they are. Don't get me started on the prescription scams..


Apparently you should include yourself among 'you experts' you are deriding.


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## philoctetes

DaveM said:


> Not true. They can suffer consequences which are more serious the more hi-risk the specialty. Apparently you should include yourself among 'you experts' you are deriding.


Your ad hominem, arrogant posts are what is making this easy for me.


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## philoctetes

Bwv 1080 said:


> Yes, but Roubini's crusade against GMOs is on the same crank level as antivax quackery. Sad that he has degenerated into such an arrogant prick and Twitter troll


Who is Roubini? I was referring to Taleb, who you eaarlier discredited for his anti-GMO position. You realize that is the essence of ad hominem and adds nothing to the discussion.

It's the herd mentality that unites the GMO and vaccine people, I can see that. I'm not one of them, been there done that, and it's too late to change me now. But if you call me names we can meet somewhere.


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## Bwv 1080

philoctetes said:


> Who is Roubini? I was referring to Taleb, who you eaarlier discredited for his anti-GMO position. You realize that is the essence of ad hominem and adds nothing to the discussion.
> 
> It's the herd mentality that unites the GMO and vaccine people, I can see that. I'm not one of them, been there done that, and it's too late to change me now. But if you call me names we can meet somewhere.


Sorry, yes Taleb. Brain fart - Roubini is another econ pundit. Did not call you names.


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## DaveM

philoctetes said:


> Your ad hominem, arrogant posts are what is making this easy for me.


Calling you an expert is ad hominem?


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## philoctetes

Bwv 1080 said:


> Sorry, yes Taleb. Brain fart - Roubini is another econ pundit. Did not call you names.


My brain farts a lot. Could be my medicine...


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## wkasimer

philoctetes said:


> I get that. To borrow terms from a famous probabilist, the med field is full of black swans and fat tails. And the doctor has no skin in the game. Instead they enjoy unlimited error tolerance (they stay rich whether right or wrong)


This is one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever read about the medical profession.


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## philoctetes

wkasimer said:


> This is one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever read about the medical profession.


We never agreed on anything. One more time is OK with me.


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## Bwv 1080

wkasimer said:


> This is one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever read about the medical profession.


Its true of 'alternative' medicine though


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## wkasimer

Fritz Kobus said:


> Consider how hard it is to find a mechanic who can fix your car which is stupidly simple compared to the human body, and while doctors certainly get a lot more education than the average mechanic, you have to wonder how many doctors are really competent.


Don't wonder. I've been in practice for 30-plus years. And of the hundreds, perhaps thousands of physicians that I've worked with over the years, I can count the number of incompetent ones on one hand.

If there were vast numbers of incompetent doctors out there, we'd have a lot more lawyers.


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## wkasimer

Bwv 1080 said:


> Its true of 'alternative' medicine though


"Alternative medicine" is an oxymoron.


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## philoctetes

I say it's true for both. I'm not here to tell you all to eat garlic for a sore throat. Go see a doctor if you prefer. I'm saying that I, not you, have trust issues with the medical industry and that I will seek solutions on my own as long as I can meet my personal health standards.

I may give in and seek out joint replacements if that's what it takes to keep me running. But I stay away from the chemical stuff if I can... 

I also get that the health industry is not like other sciences in that there is always a sense of urgency to cure people and save lives. This is the good side of the herd mentality. Time waits for no one and it's especially true of sick people. But there is a dark side of the herd mentality that can be used to justify almost any socializing idea, not all of which are beneficial. Mom would say not to jump off a cliff just cause others do it.


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## philoctetes

wkasimer said:


> And of the hundreds, perhaps thousands of physicians that I've worked with over the years, I can count the number of incompetent ones on one hand.
> 
> If there were vast numbers of incompetent doctors out there, we'd have a lot more lawyers.


This is one of the most ridiculously misquantified statements I've read in a long time :tiphat:

Let's see. is it hundreds, or thousands? Assuming it's just a hundred, that's 5% incompetence. Not a small percentage.

"Vast" and "a lot more" are equally meaningless. Defending one's own industry is obviously not objective.

I suspect that Mr Kasimer also does not grasp the meaning of black swan and fat tail.


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## KenOC

Am I the only one here satisfied with my medical care? Example: Tuesday morning I e-mailed my doc complaining of shoulder pain that had gotten severe enough to interfere with my sleep. He booked me in for late the next morning and arranged for an X-ray just prior. I came in and got the X-ray (3 of them actually) and was almost immediately called in to his office. He had the X-rays on the screen and showed me where the problem was. Not really fixable.

So he prescribed a generic NSAID I'd never heard of. He warned that some people found it hard to tolerate. Took one later the same day and found (1) shoulder pain totally gone, and (2) I experienced no fewer than THREE of the unpleasant side effects listed for the drug.

So back to the drawing board. But so far, the doc seems to be doing exactly what he's supposed to be doing, and in a very competent way.


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## SixFootScowl

philoctetes said:


> I have a bad hip and knee on the right side, ski accident 35 years ago. Two torn ligaments, torn cartiledge and possibly some cracked bones. The pain and swelling got so bad recently I had to take a break. Going to SF this weekend and will get to run on the beach, barefoot. Yeah! If it goes well I may go skiing later this month...
> *
> Some people walk almost as fast as I run...*


I am the same way. If I go on a hike with my son, I have to work hard at keeping up with him and not breaking into a jog. I remember when I was his age I also walked at high speed.


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## SixFootScowl

wkasimer said:


> "Alternative medicine" is an oxymoron.


Not really. It is simply a short form for,

"Alternative to medicine as practiced by the current medical establishment"

But "alternative medicine" is easier to use than an acronym such as AMPCME.


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## philoctetes

Ultimately, ask yourself if you trust Mark Zuckerberg, Jeff Bezos, Google, (fill in the blank), perfectly well-intentioned parties who had great ideas and gave us such benefits... they've been around a very short time, compared to the medical and insurance institutions... is Elon Musk a big fraud or Jules Verne in the flesh? They find ways to amass great fortunes and assume great control, often in physical domains that are invisible to us... 

AI appears to be taking us down the non-linear, fat-tailed route to a major error crisis... this very moment, people are on my Next Door site talking about downed power poles and fires during Wednesday's storm, that they reported to the press and PG&E, only to be told they never happened! I can't vouch one way or another, but I heard several loud booms that night, and lost power for a short time, but some are so mad they want to smash up their smart meters, which PG&E spent lots of $$$ on and forced upon all customers...another invisible force (EM, smart surveillance) sitting right outside their walls that they don't trust... meanwhile the maze of crossing contrails appear overhead 100 days of the year... whatever they are they ain't natural... Newsom now wants to tax drinking water... sorry if this is too broad a brush but distrust is the order of the day out here... people forcing stuff you can't see on us, chemicals, radiation, GMOs, whatever... while incompetence spreads...

Apparently SF is finally putting Fl in the drinking water... I guess that's why it has to be taxed...


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## Bwv 1080

Fritz Kobus said:


> Not really. It is simply a short form for,
> 
> "Alternative to medicine as practiced by the current medical establishment"
> 
> But "alternative medicine" is easier to use than an acronym such as AMPCME.


Yes, the bad old current medical establishment that requires independent peer-reviewed research to demonstrate proof of efficacy and safety. Any medicine that has those things is not 'alternative'.


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## philoctetes

Folklore is not good. It's bad for you if the person you trust is wrong or dishonest. Mmm, what else is like that?

Where's the peer review when I have an appointment? Better yet, how do I know a peer review in medicine is really objective? How many peers actually duplicate the analysis under review? Who makes sure the data is "clean"? 

We can do this all day, but I got ... other things to do.


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## Luchesi

Fritz Kobus shared -

"One day I started a crash diet of about 300-500 calories a day..."

I just read that a low calorie diet tells your body that food will be in short supply and therefore your metabolism goes down. You lose weight initially, but then when you go back to normal eating you gain weight much more quickly. 

If instead, you fast, that tells your body to slightly elevate your metabolism (to find food etc.) - you lose weight faster and your mood goes up. This is all a good system for survival over hundreds of thousands of years, somewhat counterintuitive. I really dislike the idea of fasting because it interferes with my happy life of food, but I can't quarrel with the logic. I worry about the dangers, but we've been selected to be able to fast and be healthy.. since we left the trees and roamed north.


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## KenOC

Bwv 1080 said:


> Yes, the bad old current medical establishment that requires independent peer-reviewed research to demonstrate proof of efficacy and safety. Any medicine that has those things is not 'alternative'.


Peer review is common in medicine and not just in research. In many hospitals, cancer cases are discussed at inter-hospital cancer boards on a weekly basis in order to get the broadest possible input on diagnoses and treatment. I found out about this when a close relative developed brain cancer.

In my own case, I once was taken by ambulance to a hospital with a suspected heart attack. X-rays and tests came back negative and I was discharged but still in bad shape. In the early evening, the hospital called and asked me to return immediately. The routine re-review of X-rays with different eyes had noticed a probable partially-collapsed lung (which was, in fact, the case). The original doctors were fixated on the heart and didn't notice the tell-tale shadow elsewhere on the film. I guess that's a kind of peer review...


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