# You Can't Dance to Beethoven



## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

I was thinking about a blog post written by the adorable Stephen Fry quite some time ago. He is a self-professed Wagnerite, but he used the title of this post to pithily comment on the artistic value of classical music, compared to his eclectic taste in contemporary (commerical) music - it's to be appreciated for its intrinsic virtue; it's not meant to be entertaining and dancey.

Now, I know that it's not why it's written, but I was wondering about this assertion, 'you can't dance to Beethoven'. Never mind the rest of the issue, I want to know, _can_ you dance to Beethoven? 

I don't have tastes in any genre outside classical music (be it old or new), so I must admit that I don't really find myself 'dancing' a lot (of course, there's never really an opportunity for me to do it anyway!). I've certainly never danced to Beethoven, but if I hear a piece with a good tarantella in it, you can bet I'll moving about in disconcerting ways if no one can see me


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## tenor02 (Jan 4, 2008)

obviously 

dunno...never really thought about it.


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## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

tenor02 said:


> obviously
> 
> dunno...never really thought about it.


Incorrect.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

I imagine it wouldn't be all that hard to dance to Beethoven's Bagatelles.


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## Ravellian (Aug 17, 2009)

3rd movement of the Emperor Piano Concerto
3rd movement of the Eroica symphony

I sometimes can't help it but get up and dance whenever I hear these


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Ooo, I'd also add the first movement of Grieg's Cello Sonata.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Many (maybe even most) classical music forms are named after dances. Even in Beethoven we have minuets, ecossaises, etc. At the risk of starting another metal thread  I find Beethoven closer to headbanging music than to dance music. It is said he knocked over a few candelabras in his day.


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

Polednice said:


> ... I want to know, _can_ you dance to Beethoven?


Wagner thought so...
Graeme


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

Polednice said:


> I want to know, _can_ you dance to Beethoven?


The Creatures of Prometheus

It's a ballet...


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Funny, because I just bought this CD, speaking of Beethoven and dance ... 

12 Country Dances, 12 German Dances and 12 Modling Dances


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Polednice said:


> I want to know, _can_ you dance to Beethoven?


The issue had never arisen for me until I heard Jos Van Immerseel and Anima Eterna performing Beethoven's 5th symphony - a HIP performance, on period instruments. I've described it in another post somewhere as 'Beethoven on a motor bike', but my immediate feeling when I first listened to it was 'This is rock and roll. Elvis would've loved this.'

I haven't actually danced to it, in the sense of cavorting around the room, but I've certainly waved my arms about rhythmically and punched the air while listening to it; and I can't see any reason at all why I couldn't dance to it if I wanted to.


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## Iveforgottenmyoldpassword (Jan 29, 2010)

why would you want to dance to Beethoven?


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

somerandomdude said:


> why would you want to dance to Beethoven?


Why would you _not?_


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Yaks can dance to Beethoven, that's for sure.


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## Ostinato (Jun 24, 2009)

Several finales of Beethoven's piano sonatas are suitable for dancing - e.g. Op 10 No 2, or Op 28.

Best of all is Op 111, 2nd movement, 3rd variation.


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## Donboy (Aug 13, 2009)

I can't even listen to most of Beethoven, let alone dance. He's so overrated!


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## mueske (Jan 14, 2009)

Donboy said:


> I can't even listen to most of Beethoven, let alone dance. He's so overrated!


Yeah he sucks. And all of the other genius composers who worshipped him are idiots and also suck.


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## Artemis (Dec 8, 2007)

mueske said:


> Yeah he sucks. And all of the other genius composers who worshipped him are idiots and also suck.


 It's not surprising to find that some people who like classical music don't like Beethoven. I have come across several people who don't mind admitting that, while they used to like Beethoven, they have increasingly become tired of it (or much of it) as they matured in age/experience.

A couple of years ago I can recall quite a well-known forum-dweller character who was a member of two of the big classical music forums who famously declared very often that he did not like Beethoven. Instead, his "hero" was Mozart from the classical era and Debussy/Ravel from the impressionist era. He would often say that Debussy/Ravel didn't think much of Beethoven. Asked why he didn't like Beethoven, one of his answers which I shall always remember went something like (and I paraphrase heavily): "_With Beethoven you so often get a piano saying 'here I am', and sure as hell the next moment a violin responds "yes I hear you, I'm here too, shall we do it again, and the whole damned thing repeats ...". _

I think his main point was that Beethoven is fine for a while (and as we all know, newbies love him) but after a while it can become predictable as it repeats the same basic theme and drives forward relentlessly on the same motif. I have a certain sympathy with this viewpoint. I loved Beethoven to pieces for many years, but eventually I began to tire. A similar thing happened vis-a-vis with Brahms and one or two late Romantics.

The guy I'm referring got fed up with all the badgering he had to suffer, and eventually packed up his membership of both forums


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

There's more of a *forced* nature sometimes to Beethoven's music than the more natural fluent style of Bach or Mozart. He could sometimes be fluent as well but there can be a determined engagement with the music that the listener maybe must get involved with sometimes. And you can dance to Beethoven, he even wrote some dances. You can dance to some music from most composers I expect.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

I understand that Beethoven wrote some pieces using classical forms that are dances _etc._, but that wasn't the original point of my question. It's about that feeling of hearing any piece - whether it is written in a dance form or not - and whether or not it gets your feet tapping and makes you want to get up and start moving!


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## Donboy (Aug 13, 2009)

Oh dear, Mueske. Such eloquent sarcasm, but nothing constructive to say?

I'm not a music scholar, so I can't evaluate my opinion very well - but there's something about much of Beethoven's music (and I've probably only heard his better known works) that irritates me. The repetition, the endless arpeggios and scales. I know Mozart and his contemporaries did this, but not to an irritating degree. I'd rather listen to Hummel, Clementi or Cherubini than Beethoven any day. 

There is also, to my mind, a certain mathematical resolution, a musical balance that is found in Mozart and others' music. Beethoven's sums don't seem to add up.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

I can understand why you (or others) might not like Beethoven, but it's just going a bit far to call him 'overrated'. It's rated just as he is for many reasons


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Polednice said:


> I understand that Beethoven wrote some pieces using classical forms that are dances _etc._, but that wasn't the original point of my question. It's about that feeling of hearing any piece - whether it is written in a dance form or not - and whether or not it gets your feet tapping and makes you want to get up and start moving!


But if you take some piece by most composers there is likely to be a more rhythmic section somewhere which you can move to. The most danceable part would normally be the minuet or scherzo.


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## Rasa (Apr 23, 2009)

Music doesn't need to be danced to... what an impractical "quality"


Perhaps people's dislike in Beethoven is that Beethoven's music takes a more obviously intelectual approach (certainly during developements) to composition, rather then Mozart who layers the fine construction with his galant melodies and whatnot.


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## Artemis (Dec 8, 2007)

Rasa said:


> Music doesn't need to be danced to... what an impractical "quality"
> 
> Perhaps people's dislike in Beethoven is that Beethoven's music takes a more obviously intelectual approach (certainly during developements) to composition, rather then Mozart who layers the fine construction with his galant melodies and whatnot.


I agree that there doesn't seem to be all that much to explore on the dance aspect of Beethoven's music. Personally, I don't listen to classical music with a view to being encouraged to slot into any kind of dance mood. I can't see that Beethoven's brand of music in this regard is any different from that of a whole range of other eminent composers.

On the wider issue, I think that the main problem that some people may have with Beethoven's style is its strong rythmic vitality, with Symphonies, 7, 3, 5 being excellent examples. His music is mostly very accessible and catchy stuff, and one's admiration of it can last for many years or indefinitely, but some people either do not care for it from the outset or sooner or later begin to prefer a lower octane version. Mozart or Haydn or possibly Schubert are obviously the main ones many people turn to if they want a less dynamic alternative, whilst retaining a broad preference for music of that era. My ideal is the music of Schubert because I like the romantic leanings in his works, and I far prefer Schubert's lyrical abilities and his generally more expansive, lugubrious style to the more raunchy one of Beethoven.

As for Beethoven being "overrated", I wouldn't agree with that at all. His rating is what it is, which is based on the combined view of all listeners, and that view seems to be emphatically strongly in favour of Beethoven as being among the top three composers of all time (probably number one).


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Rasa said:


> Music doesn't need to be danced to...


The question originally posed isn't 'Do we _need_ to dance to Beethoven?' (clearly we don't), but '_Can_ we dance to Beethoven?'. And the answer 'yes' can be demonstrated beyond doubt by anyone willing to try taking a few intuitive flourishes around the room while the music is playing. If you can wave your arms to Beethoven (or even just tap your feet), you can dance to him.


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## Donboy (Aug 13, 2009)

Artemis said:


> Beethoven as being among the top three composers of all time (probably number one).


Based on what? Quantity or quality? Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying he's a poor composer, just that his ability or style of composing is somewhere between Mozart, Mendelssohn and Brahms, and they do it so much better. And they're all outshone by Bach


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## mueske (Jan 14, 2009)

Donboy said:


> Oh dear, Mueske. Such eloquent sarcasm, but nothing constructive to say?
> 
> I'm not a music scholar, so I can't evaluate my opinion very well - but there's something about much of Beethoven's music (and I've probably only heard his better known works) that irritates me. The repetition, the endless arpeggios and scales. I know Mozart and his contemporaries did this, but not to an irritating degree. I'd rather listen to Hummel, Clementi or Cherubini than Beethoven any day.
> 
> There is also, to my mind, a certain mathematical resolution, a musical balance that is found in Mozart and others' music. Beethoven's sums don't seem to add up.


Beethoven speaks for himself. But don't bother, based on your last post, I don't think it'll matter.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Elgarian said:


> The question originally posed isn't 'Do we _need_ to dance to Beethoven?' (clearly we don't), but '_Can_ we dance to Beethoven?'. And the answer 'yes' can be demonstrated beyond doubt by anyone willing to try taking a few intuitive flourishes around the room while the music is playing. If you can wave your arms to Beethoven (or even just tap your feet), you can dance to him.


I suppose that was the bulk of my question, but allow me one more refinement so that I can really get at the heart of what I meant to find out. Forget the _need_, and forget the _can_, *do* you dance to Beethoven?


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Polednice said:


> Forget the _need_, and forget the _can_, *do* you dance to Beethoven?


Well, I don't really dance to _anything_ - but I do _move_ to Beethoven, Mozart, Handel etc, and I'd think of those movements as a limited form of dance, I think. Usually it's arms, hands, upper body - but maybe little steps and so on, if I'm standing up. I don't dance to Beethoven any _less_ than I dance to Elvis, for instance.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

The thing is that Stephen Fry knows absolutely nothing about the music itself. He knows about Wagner's life, not about chromatic appoggiaturas.


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

I have danced to Beethoven, to pieces like:

The Allegretto scherzando from the 8th symphony.
The scherzo from the 3rd symphony.
The folk-dance 'Presto' from the Op. 130 string quartet.

And if you widen the horizons of "dancing" and include things like animatedly making wild gestures in the air and making emotive faces, I think you can "dance" to almost any piece by Beethoven (maybe not the slow movements).


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Polednice said:


> I was thinking about a blog post written by the adorable Stephen Fry quite some time ago. He is a self-professed Wagnerite, but he used the title of this post to pithily comment on the artistic value of classical music, compared to his eclectic taste in contemporary (commerical) music - it's to be appreciated for its intrinsic virtue; it's not meant to be entertaining and dancey.
> 
> Now, I know that it's not why it's written, but I was wondering about this assertion, 'you can't dance to Beethoven'. Never mind the rest of the issue, I want to know, _can_ you dance to Beethoven?
> 
> I don't have tastes in any genre outside classical music (be it old or new), so I must admit that I don't really find myself 'dancing' a lot (of course, there's never really an opportunity for me to do it anyway!). I've certainly never danced to Beethoven, but if I hear a piece with a good tarantella in it, you can bet I'll moving about in disconcerting ways if no one can see me


You probably need Baroque Gigues to dance to. But there is nothing stopping you to dancing to any Beethoven or Bach or Brahms or Stochkausen or Cage if you feel like it. Beethoven's music though, was very instrumental in idiom.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Beethoven actually wrote quite a few dances. See his works WoO 7 through 17, also WoO 81 though 86.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...dwig_van_Beethoven#Works_without_opus_numbers

Most of these were commissioned and yes, people actually danced to them.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

I can't dance anyway, period. I have three left feet, and one of them always gets in the way.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

On Symphony 7:

_Another admirer, Richard Wagner, referring to the lively rhythms which permeate the work, called it the "apotheosis of the dance"._ (from Wikipedia but I've seen it plenty elsewhere)


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

dgee said:


> On Symphony 7:
> 
> _Another admirer, Richard Wagner, referring to the lively rhythms which permeate the work, called it the "apotheosis of the dance"._ (from Wikipedia but I've seen it plenty elsewhere)


Definitely music to make the Gods dance.


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## stevens (Jun 23, 2014)

Of course we can dance to Beethoven. Why not??


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

OP: But you CAN dance to F.J. Haydn!!!


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## Guest (Jul 21, 2014)

It depends.

"The Watusi? The Twist?"

Macaroni? Pony?

Mashed Potato? Waltz?

I'm not sure you could Pogo.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

hpowders said:


> OP: But you CAN dance to F.J. Haydn!!!


Yes. I think that any music can be danced to - even modernist.


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

The third movement of the Emperor concerto is VERY dancy


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