# Whatever happened to the Serenade?



## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

To me, it seems like the great chance missed, in a way. As the symphony grew in stature, the serenade seemed to fade. I'm listening now to the _Haffner _serenade and what do I hear? A symphony with a violin concerto inside it. Eight orchestral movements and none of them flagging. The _Posthorn _serenade is similar, a long orchestral work with a wind concertante within it. The other movements, Wolfie scavenged later on to use as a symphony. The _Haffner _symphony began as a serenade also.

But these early serenades by Mozart were broader in scope than his symphs. Then there were the great wind serenades, and divertimenti. In the 19th century, I see that Brahms and Dvorak among others, including Hugo Wolf, bless 'im, composed serenades. And yet, orchestrally, the 19th century is the period where explorations into the symphony went stratospheric, and the serenade, which had so much potential to take that position for the orchestra, began to decline.

Anyone know why serenades and divertimenti lost favour with the great composers? Or if they didn't, is there a reason why the symphony became known as the great orchestral work, but serenades weren't similarly developed?


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## Yardrax (Apr 29, 2013)

The clue is in the name isn't it? 'Divertimento' provokes associations of something light, informal, entertaining but not very serious. I don't think this one is too much of a mystery.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Yardrax said:


> The clue is in the name isn't it? 'Divertimento' provokes associations of something light, informal, entertaining but not very serious. I don't think this one is too much of a mystery.


That is probably looking at it backwards, eh? "Serenades" were composed to be performed at events resembling 'garden parties' put on by the affluent; upper class social events. Somewhere around the end of Hummel's time, that format went out of fashion. Maybe the social unrest centered on the 1848 uprisings had something to do with it?


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Hilltroll72 said:


> That is probably looking at it backwards, eh? "Serenades" were composed to be performed at events resembling 'garden parties' put on by the affluent; upper class social events. Somewhere around the end of Hummel's time, that format went out of fashion. Maybe the social unrest centered on the 1848 uprisings had something to do with it?


Yes, but I'm sure composers could easily get around that by just calling their serenades by a new name, like proletarianade or something like that.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

brianvds said:


> Yes, but I'm sure composers could easily get around that by just calling their serenades by a new name, like proletarianade or something like that.


lol that made me giggle.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Yardrax said:


> The clue is in the name isn't it? 'Divertimento' provokes associations of something light, informal, entertaining but not very serious. I don't think this one is too much of a mystery.


I present divertimento K563 as evidence for the defence! :tiphat:


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Hilltroll72 said:


> That is probably looking at it backwards, eh?  "Serenades" were composed to be performed at events resembling 'garden parties' put on by the affluent; upper class social events. Somewhere around the end of Hummel's time, that format went out of fashion. Maybe the social unrest centered on the 1848 uprisings had something to do with it?


Good point, and this could be it, but weren't they still composed to be listened to by the same constituency as those who listened to symphs? There was no class divide there, was there? But still, your reason sounds compelling.

The symph began as a humble, apologetic overture, and then was dissected and dismembered so it could be played at various points in concert, with arias and PC's interjecting in the entertainment. Then the symph became a centre-piece and vocals and all virtuosities became available to it. The serenade had this fifty years earlier! An imposing work like the Haffner is just one example, and had this remained in vogue, then maybe there was as much, or even more potential, than the symphony.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

I did a thread on the popularity of different genres through different periods but not many were interested. Not saying this thread is a bad idea or anything, but the rise and fall of all kinds of genres could be an interesting subject. 
http://www.talkclassical.com/25690-overrated-underrated-genres-classical.html

Anyway was the serenade/divertimento a development of the baroque suite? Dance music may have had a slightly fresh injection of life with romantic nationalism and the folk element being reintroduced. Maybe the suite developed more from extracting ballet music as well into suites. Going into the twentieth century and maybe even before there may have been a preference for single movement pieces over multi-movement ones, perhaps they fitted in better in concert programs with large scale romantic/modern works, or they were more popuar in arrangements for the amateur pianist? Just speculations.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Kieran said:


> ...
> 
> But these early serenades by Mozart were broader in scope than his symphs. Then there were the great wind serenades, and divertimenti. In the 19th century, I see that Brahms and Dvorak among others, including Hugo Wolf, bless 'im, composed serenades. And yet, orchestrally, the 19th century is the period where explorations into the symphony went stratospheric, and the serenade, which had so much potential to take that position for the orchestra, began to decline.
> ...


It did begin to decline but in some small ways it survived. The Brits (more traditionalist than the continent) kept it going. Elgar's Serenade for Strings, Britten's Serenade for Tenor, Horn and Strings, and Vaughan Williams' Serenade to Music are good examples. Of course, these are not meant to woo women, but for the concert hall.

In the realm of lighter music, also easy type listening, you still had it going. Look at Glenn Miller's Moonlight Serenade or Toselli's Serenade, which is still one of Andre Rieu's biggest hits (well, his arrangement of it, and it was he who unearthed this after quite a long period of neglect).



> ...
> Anyone know why serenades and divertimenti lost favour with the great composers? Or if they didn't, is there a reason why the symphony became known as the great orchestral work, but serenades weren't similarly developed?


Maybe its kind of a thought to say that the seeds to its demise, and the demise of lighter music just for entertainment, was sown by none other than Papa and Wolfie? Their later symphonies pushed the genre far beyond what it was before they made their mark on the scene. So of course, succeeding generations such as Beethoven, Schubert and after would take it further - and other things, many of them lighter but equally good, got left by the wayside a bit...or a lot?


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

starry said:


> I did a thread on the popularity of different genres through different periods but not many were interested. Not saying this thread is a bad idea or anything, but the rise and fall of all kinds of genres could be an interesting subject.
> http://www.talkclassical.com/25690-overrated-underrated-genres-classical.html
> 
> Anyway was the serenade/divertimento a development of the baroque suite? Dance music may have had a slightly fresh injection of life with romantic nationalism and the folk element being reintroduced. Maybe the suite developed more from extracting ballet music as well into suites. Going into the twentieth century and maybe even before there may have been a preference for single movement pieces over multi-movement ones, perhaps they fitted in better in concert programs with large scale romantic/modern works, or they were more popuar in arrangements for the amateur pianist? Just speculations.


Thanks starry. Interesting thread. You think the evolution of concert programmes prohibited the length of serenades? It sounds plausible. As well, as you say, that it diversified into ballet and more specialist forms put paid to that aspect of it. I suppose this is the nature of things, eh? They change!


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Sid James said:


> It did begin to decline but in some small ways it survived. The Brits (more traditionalist than the continent) kept it going. Elgar's Serenade for Strings, Britten's Serenade for Tenor, Horn and Strings, and Vaughan Williams' Serenade to Music are good examples. Of course, these are not meant to woo women, but for the concert hall.
> 
> In the realm of lighter music, also easy type listening, you still had it going. Look at Glenn Miller's Moonlight Serenade or Toselli's Serenade, which is still one of Andre Rieu's biggest hits (well, his arrangement of it, and it was he who unearthed this after quite a long period of neglect).
> 
> Maybe its kind of a thought to say that the seeds to its demise, and the demise of lighter music just for entertainment, was sown by none other than Papa and Wolfie? Their later symphonies pushed the genre far beyond what it was before they made their mark on the scene. So of course, succeeding generations such as Beethoven, Schubert and after would take it further - and other things, many of them lighter but equally good, got left by the wayside a bit...or a lot?


Thanks Sid! Informative as always. I suppose the *Haffner *has me spellbound: I don't think Wolfie's early symphs were ever as broad and well-defined. This is a large-scale symphonic piece. And as a genre - at that stage of things - it seems to have more potential than the symphony. I wouldn't even describe it as _light _music, or simple entertainment (I'd describe serenade #13, *Eine Kleine Nachtmusik* as that), but the replies here have convinced me that it didn't fade because of inadequacy: it's just fashions changed and different forms of orchestral music were more rugged and enduring.

You're correct about lighter serenades in the 20th century, though, and they're so light that the term _serenade _commonly denotes some whimsy and a lack of heavy substance...


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## Geo Dude (May 22, 2013)

Well, since we seem to have resolved the issue of the death of the serenade, why not start recommending recordings in the genre? I'll start: Haydn wrote some excellent serenades.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Later serenades are more serenades for strings, the old wind band seems to have disappeared. Similarly the old wind quintet disappeared. Maybe as I think someone said these outdoor bands became less popular, perhaps concert venues largely took over. Later a new tradition of brass bands developed and maybe that enabled some of this lighter (but not trivial) music to re-emerge within outdoor music, though with obviously a different sound to it.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Geo Dude said:


> Well, since we seem to have resolved the issue of the death of the serenade, why not start recommending recordings in the genre? I'll start: Haydn wrote some excellent serenades.


Absolutely. Wolfie has the Haffner, the Serenata Notturna, the Posthorn, and the great wind serenades, K361, K375 and K388...


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Off the beaten path, check out the late romantic serenades of Fuchs (available on Naxos CD's).


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## Geo Dude (May 22, 2013)

Kieran said:


> Absolutely. Wolfie has the Haffner, the Serenata Notturna, the Posthorn, and the great wind serenades, K361, K375 and K388...


I'm sure I have a few of those lying around, but do you have any favorite recordings?


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Geo Dude said:


> I'm sure I have a few of those lying around, but do you have any favorite recordings?


No! 

I only have one of each, and from memory it's Karl Bohm for the Posthorn, Naxos for the wind serenades, and recently I got an excellent recording of the Haffner and Notturno, performed by the Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra, conducted by Ton Koopman. I've known the others a long time, but the Haffner is sweeping me off my feet steadily more each day. It's K250, so it's low on the range and I haven't listened to much young Wolfie. I'm going to rectify that, however, because he has a power when young, a lack of restraint in the creative force of the work. On Thursday I'm in town and I'll get K251, and K334, two large-scale divertimentos, on Naxos...


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

k334 has been a big favourite of mine for many years, I think it elevates that genre to great art. It contains light music but also has art and personal expression. Romantics and Modernists may not like this but I think composers who are well known for lighter music can create just as great art and the classical and baroque periods showed this.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

I think they were not as popular as the symphony,composers like DVORAK,tchaikovsky & ELGAR wrote one string serenade but more symphonies.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Serenade - night music, meant, really, for out of doors, perhaps on the street beneath a window of omeone you wish to charm...

Now we have Chill Lounge Music 

A Serenade is also "just" music to be played at night (I still think it is "in the dark," I.e. musicians have lihts for their parts, the rest of out of doors or the hall is dark.)

The Nocturne came along, and in a large vogue for it, too.

I'm all for'em, the Divertissement / Divertimento, too.

Then again, there is that lounge / chill music


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Kieran said:


> Thanks Sid! Informative as always. I suppose the *Haffner *has me spellbound: I don't think Wolfie's early symphs were ever as broad and well-defined. This is a large-scale symphonic piece. And as a genre - at that stage of things - it seems to have more potential than the symphony. I wouldn't even describe it as _light _music, or simple entertainment (I'd describe serenade #13, *Eine Kleine Nachtmusik* as that), but the replies here have convinced me that it didn't fade because of inadequacy: it's just fashions changed and different forms of orchestral music were more rugged and enduring.


Well its been years since I've heard the Posthorn and Haffner and I aim to get to them at some point in future. But even the ones I know where innovative. Light music doesn't mean its not innovative or insubstantial. Ones I do know are Serenata Notturna for two orchestras, and also Serenade #8 for Four Orchestras. With these, he was splitting up the larger group into smaller groups, prefiguring guys like Carter (Symphony for Three ORchestras) and Stockhausen (Gruppen for Three Orchestras) by something like 150 years. Even though Mozart's 'orchestras' where much smaller than theirs, the concept was there. Of course, this all goes back to choral music before Wolfie, but in terms of purely instrumental music doing this, well these where milestones I think.

But I wouldn't underestimate Eine KLeine Nachtmusik either. The harmonies in it alone are amazing. Again, contemporary music writers and composers have said this, not just a nobody like me. Its one warhorse that I never seem to tire of, its just an amazing piece on so many levels. Much derided by some people but I don't care for that type of negativity anymore.



> You're correct about lighter serenades in the 20th century, though, and they're so light that the term _serenade _commonly denotes some whimsy and a lack of heavy substance...


Divertimento, Serenade, Notturno are all linked. THe first for diversion of course, the other two linked to the night. Serenading a lady or just music for the night. Nocturnes, later innovated as piano pieces by John FIeld, Chopin made a big mark there, and it also endured into the 20th century. Look at Bartok's night musics in his concertos, quartets and larger scale chamber works. His Divertimento for strings too, is a major example in the genre of Modern era. Of course, its not for the same puproses as in Mozart's or Haydn's time, but the form survived and was given new meaning by Bartok here. Schoenberg also did a serenade.

I have a more broad view of innovation. Ultimately it matter little to me if an innovation was done in a serenade, or a symphony, or a string quartet or whatever. Once that is done, in no time at all it spreads to other genres anyway. It kind of cross fertilises and cross pollinates. So whether used for light purposes or not, its got value. There are probably a good deal of composers who had lofty aims but did they innovate a fraction of what the likes of Mozart of Haydn did? I think its hard to beat their track record of innovation, quite frankly, even from now rediscovering and learning about their pieces after many years. This is what my weekend posts are about on current listening these days, I have been going back to Haydn's London series of symphonies (Nos. 93-104) and even in them, he predated in embryonic form most of the innovations of Beethoven in his symphonies. Its the same with Mozart, who I aim to get into more depth later.



starry said:


> k334 has been a big favourite of mine for many years, I think it elevates that genre to great art. It contains light music but also has art and personal expression. Romantics and Modernists may not like this but I think *composers who are well known for lighter music can create just as great art* and the classical and baroque periods showed this.


Thats my general point, right there!


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Whatever happened to the serenade?

Here it is.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Whatever happened to the serenade?
> 
> Here it is.


Yeah, I see it there, a slow and horrible death....


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