# Bruckner Problem



## Ned Low (Jul 29, 2020)

Months ago i listened to Bruckner's symphonies conducted by Bernard Haitink and was impressed by them, his 8th in particular. (Bruckner is like Wagner but in symphonic genre. Of course that's because he was a Wagnerian himself). However, the problem is back then i didn't know Bruckner used to revise his symphonies so often. There are many recordings of his 1st, 3rd, and 4th based on different versions and editions. So i posted this to see if any of you guys have enough information regarding the those numerous versions and editions. For instance, which edition of his 3rd symphony is the best? What's the difference between that edition with others? Which edition do you listen to?


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Here are David Hurwitz's comments on the editions of the 3rd. He lists all the versions. You can take his personal opinions on them however you want.






He also comments on the 4th in this one:






He also jokes about all the editions by creating a new organization dedicated to new editions of Bruckner. (Again, this is not serious; it's a joke.)


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

It is indeed bewildering. Given the different versions and editions there are something like 30 Bruckner symphonies. I wish it were as simple as Haas or Nowak, but it isn't. We'll never know definitively what Bruckner wanted, although Haas and Orel were probably on the right track. The "standard" performing edition of the 3rd is the 1889 (Nowak) and it was Bruckner's own last revision. But there are many, many recordings of all the versions.

The 4th isn't as complicated I don't think. The standard version is the 1881 Haas.

In case you're not aware of it, there's a terrific Bruckner site, abruckner.com, that has a monumental amount of information about Bruckner. Recordings, editions, scores...it's amazing. They also have a PDF of a small booklet by Philiip Barford, the section on textual issues is a great help.

https://www.abruckner.com/down/articles/articlesEnglish/barfordphilipbruck/barford_bruckner_bbc.pdf


----------



## Alfacharger (Dec 6, 2013)

I sometimes have a go with all three versions of the 3rd. Naxos followed up Tintner's 1873 version with a two disc set of the 1877 and 1889 versions with Wildner.

I adore the 1873 version recording.



















Deryck Cooke's collection of essays "Vindications" has one titled "The Bruckner Problem, Solved".


----------



## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Go to that site mbhaub recommends! God it's fun! Lists every recording ever made commercially, including all the versions, and of course Editions. Nowak vs Haas vs Carrigan. It's brilliant for those of us who like this sort of thing, but If you're not confused now, you will be!

However, it is probably the 4th that is the biggest problem, debatably more so than No.3? There's a completely different Scherzo out there, and a completely different Finale to contend with. True, the "accepted" edition is far better, but........


----------



## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

If you asked me for my favourite for the 3rd, on paper, that's the Oeser Edition.


----------



## Nick 123 (Sep 3, 2020)

Thanks and i'll surely check the website.


----------



## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

CnC Bartok said:


> Go to that site mbhaub recommends! God it's fun! Lists every recording ever made commercially, including all the versions, and of course Editions. Nowak vs Haas vs Carrigan. It's brilliant for those of us who like this sort of thing, but If you're not confused now, you will be!
> ...


That site of course is



mbhaub said:


> ...
> 
> https://www.abruckner.com/down/articles/articlesEnglish/barfordphilipbruck/barford_bruckner_bbc.pdf


I just got an email from the site (having signed up for such years ago, with no regrets). The email informs me as follows:

Happy Birthday, Anton!
Happy Birthday, Anton!
September 4th is Anton Bruckner's 196th birthday. Here are two ways to mark the occasion. Now go pull out one of your favorite Bruckner recordings and celebrate!

Good to know. I'll celebrate by listening to the Rudolf performance of the Seventh, my favorite Bruckner record.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Compared to the interpretation - there are many takes on Bruckner that I don't warm to - I have never really felt that the version/edition used matters that much.


----------



## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

The 3rd, 4th and 8th are probably those where the various versions mean the most. Plus of course attempts at finishing/reconstructing the finale of the 9th. 

In the 3rd, I definitely prefer the original version - also longer (Inbal, Young); in the 4th and 8th, the original versions disappoint, IMO.

I agree with the OP as regards Haitink's 8th; the CtGebouw first DDD recording is probably my favourite of the work.


----------



## Spy Car (Nov 15, 2017)

SONNET CLV said:


> That site of course is
> 
> I just got an email from the site (having signed up for such years ago, with no regrets). The email informs me as follows:
> 
> ...


As it happens, I also listened to Max Rudolf's Bruckner 7 as part of my celebrational Anton Bruckner birthday listening-festival yesterday.

My listening copy came from an excellent vinyl transfer off a Westminster Records recording.










To the OP, if you come to love Bruckner the various edition may transform from a "problem" and into a "feature."

Best,

Bill


----------



## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Ned Low said:


> Months ago i listened to Bruckner's symphonies conducted by Bernard Haitink and was impressed by them, his 8th in particular. (Bruckner is like Wagner but in symphonic genre. Of course that's because he was a Wagnerian himself). However, the problem is back then i didn't know Bruckner used to revise his symphonies so often. There are many recordings of his 1st, 3rd, and 4th based on different versions and editions. So i posted this to see if any of you guys have enough information regarding the those numerous versions and editions. For instance, which edition of his 3rd symphony is the best? What's the difference between that edition with others? Which edition do you listen to?


Even Wikipedia has information on this, although you have to look up each symphony separately. For instance, Symphony No. 4 has the following index and sections for versions:

*2	Versions*
2.1	1874 version
2.2	1878 version
2.2.1	1880 version (aka 1878-1880)
2.2.2	1881 revision
2.2.3	1886 revision
2.3	1887-1888 version
2.3.1	1888 revision
2.3.2	Mahler reorchestration

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._4_(Bruckner)

Wikipedia even has a section for *"Bruckner's Fourth Symphony and the "Bruckner Problem"*"


----------



## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

mbhaub said:


> It is indeed bewildering . . .
> 
> . . . We'll never know definitively what Bruckner wanted . . .


That is because Bruckner kept changing his mind.

I'd go with his last version, although, had he lived longer, there would likely have been further revisions.


----------



## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

In my opinion, a lot of the revisions were really for the better. I get why certain conductors favor original versions in order to be 100% authentic to the composer - to me they're missing some of the most amazing passages of those movements that were written in later, or even just subtle details.


----------



## Ned Low (Jul 29, 2020)

Same here I'll go for Young's recording which is the original version. It's the one with Wagner quotations. In the first movement, for example, there are moments from Die Walküre( the last scene of the third act) and from Tristan und isolde. Or in the second movement, quotations from Lohengrin, again Tristan und isolde and Tannhauser's overture. It's amazibg really.


----------



## Ned Low (Jul 29, 2020)

Yeah Dave Hurwitz has YouTube channel. I have seen some of them. His schubert symphonies recommendations for instance.


----------

