# Schubert 190 years



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

At three o’clock in the afternoon of November 19, 1828, Franz Schubert turned to his brother Ferdinand and said ‘here, here is my end’. What a loss!


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Syphilis can do that to a bloke.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

eugeneonagain said:


> Syphilis can do that to a bloke.


Some of his symptoms matched those of mercury poisoning which Schubert had been treated with for for syphilis. The cure was probably worse than the disease itself in those days


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

31 years, 9 months, and 19 days. Who else would we remember if that was all the lifespan that they were given? On this scale, Mozart dies on November 15, 1787. That’s about three weeks after the premiere of Don Giovanni. So we’d have no Cosi Fan Tuttle, no Clemenza di Tito, and no Zauberflõte. The symphonies would end at 38. No Requiem, no Clarinet Concerto, nor the Piano Concerto K. 595. So much would be missing... 

And the maddening thing about Schubert is that he had somehow kept his unparalleled melodic gift, and now knew how to develop and enhance these melodies.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

waldvogel said:


> 31 years, 9 months, and 19 days. Who else would we remember if that was all the lifespan that they were given? On this scale, Mozart dies on November 15, 1787. That's about three weeks after the premiere of Don Giovanni. So we'd have no Cosi Fan Tuttle, no Clemenza di Tito, and no Zauberflõte. The symphonies would end at 38. No Requiem, no Clarinet Concerto, nor the Piano Concerto K. 595. So much would be missing...
> 
> And the maddening thing about Schubert is that he had somehow kept his unparalleled melodic gift, and now knew how to develop and enhance these melodies.


Yes it was a tragedy for posterity - the mind boggles at what we might have had. sy 9 sounds like the culmination of a long lifetimes work. It's maddening that the two greatest talents in classical music died so young. Mozart dying at 31 + 9 months still we would have near on up to K500 including Figaro etc and all the truly great piano concertos. We would still have threads on here about who's better Mozart or Beethoven.

But this is a time to remember Schubert and his sad early death.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

waldvogel said:


> 31 years, 9 months, and 19 days. Who else would we remember if that was all the lifespan that they were given? On this scale, Mozart dies on November 15, 1787. That's about three weeks after the premiere of Don Giovanni. So we'd have no Cosi Fan Tuttle, no Clemenza di Tito, and no Zauberflõte. The symphonies would end at 38. No Requiem, no Clarinet Concerto, nor the Piano Concerto K. 595. So much would be missing...
> 
> And the maddening thing about Schubert is that he had somehow kept his unparalleled melodic gift, and now knew how to develop and enhance these melodies.


If Beethoven or Brahms had died at that age, they'd likely be fairly obscure today.


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

All very good points. A huge talent. It would have been fascinating to hear what he might have produced had he had a similar lifespan to that of say, Beethoven. Wasn't it Schumann who referred to him as "Beethoven's first-born" or words to that effect?


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

If everyone had died at Schubert's age he'd have been the greatest composer of all time, excepting perhaps Mozart's operatic achievements.
Graeme


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

We often assume that had composers lived longer they would have gone on to greater and greater achievements. But creative talents peak at different times in different people, due to factors both psychological and circumstantial. Most often, probably, an artist's most noteworthy achievements come in middle age. A composer's work may undergo stylistic change later in life without showing greater skill or inspiration. Sibelius quit 25 years before he died, and his last works are not demonstrably finer than those written a decade earlier. Vaughan Williams went on composing into old age, but his last four symphonies are arguably inferior to his first five. Mendelssohn didn't fulfill the promise of his youth: his genius stopped growing before his skeleton did. Who knows what would have happened to Schubert?


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Woodduck;154477We often assume that had composers lived longer they would have gone on to greater and greater achievements. ... Who knows what would have happened to Schubert?[/QUOTE said:


> True. But Schubert _did _die at a peak in his powers and we can reasonably assume that, had he lived longer, he would have produced at least a few additional great works, even if his powers would have eventually waned. I can't imagine that the composer of the Schubert Ninth, the final String Quartets and Piano Sonatas, and _Winterreise_ would have produced nothing of greater value had he lived an additional several years. I also can't imagine how anyone of Schubert's early powers could have sustained such powers into old age. Haydn's late music seems somehow greater than his early music; could Schubert in his 80's have continued his arc of masterpiece production?
> 
> I always recall the poet Wordsworth whose early _Lyrical Ballads_ prove his masterpiece, though he himself went on to live for several decades more, writing rather mediocre poetry the remainder of his life. But, had Wordsworth died at the peak of his powers, that is, in the midst of writing the _Lyrical Ballads_, we would certainly be able to surmise that had he lived longer, he would have produced a few more great poems before, possibly, moving into a decline of his powers. So with Schubert, in my opinion.
> 
> I have long lamented the loss of Schubert more than the loss of any other artist, though many great ones have died young. (And my heart cringes as I contemplate that I may be giving up on Mozart with that comment.)


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

When asked what works one wishes given composers had written, several on TC mentioned a concerto by Schubert. Of course, it's difficult to know how a composer would handle new genres, but I certainly would like to hear a piano or string concerto from Schubert.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

We do not know anything for certain of what Schubert (or Mozart) would have written if they had lived longer, but we do know (as has been said) that they died at the height of their powers. With people at 31 and 35 one can assume that those powers are going to last at least another 10-15 years so who knows? Verdi's powers lasted till he was 80 and increased all the while! So who knows? The answer is we don't and have to be content with what they have left us.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

But Schubert kept getting music lessons from a teacher even his 30s. Lessons on counterpoint with Josef Lanz, I believe, whereas Beethoven had no need for lessons by age 30.
Also, I find Beethoven's early symphonies more mature and complete than Schubert's last ones.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

hammeredklavier said:


> But Schubert kept getting music lessons from a teacher even his 30s. Lessons on counterpoint with Josef Lanz, I believe, whereas Beethoven had no need for lessons by age 30.
> Also, I find Beethoven's early symphonies more mature and complete than Schubert's last ones.


technique can be learnt, the creative genius cannot. I believe that Schubert was the bigger raw genius of the two, he composed more easily and he definitely was the bigger melodist.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> ...Sibelius quit 25 years before he died, and his last works are not demonstrably finer than those written a decade earlier...


In terms of his major works it's a 30 year silence and the 7th and Tapiola at least match the 5th symphony.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

janxharris said:


> In terms of his major works it's a 30 year silence and the 7th and Tapiola at least match the 5th symphony.


that is what alcohol does. A real pity.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Jacck said:


> that is what alcohol does. A real pity.


Not just the alcohol - he knew that the new music of the time would probably render him somewhat dated (not my opinion) - and it's also been said that the 7th would be difficult to follow (though Tapiola came later of course).


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