# Where to Start with Wagner...



## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Hello, hello, hello!

I have a question - where do I start with Wagner? From the off, please bear in mind that I am emphatically _not_ asking which of Wagner's works are the 'best', so don't assume that listing the most critically acclaimed will help me out  Let me explain...

I'm always trying to broaden my musical horizon (as I'm sure everyone is here), but I find it particularly hard because I feel such a close affinity to the (mid-late) Romantic period and artistic ideal that I find it hard to truly appreciate earlier or later music. I can recognise the potential genius of works in other periods, but they always fail to move me in quite the same way as someone such as Brahms, who epitomises the kind of music that I love beyond anything else in this world.

Wagner is, of course, a late Romantic; but, as trite as it now sounds because of how often it is regurgitated, he is one of those 'transitional figures' who laid some foundations for the innovations of the 20th Century. That's why I have yet to appreciate his music. I keep turning to him when I feel like being adventurous, but his music has never yet striked me in such a way that I would want to go back to it.

So where do _I_ start with him? It's not quite the same as for everyone else, because I want to know which of his operas _most closely resembles_ the musical style epitomised by Brahms - a bit 'conservative' you might (erroneously ) assume! Even though the comparison may not truly exist in Wagner's oeuvre, I want to begin with his most Brahms-like work first, before moving on to his later masterpieces which move away from the standard forms of the 19th century.

Perhaps it's as simple a case as looking at his works chronologically, as we could perhaps assume that he became more innovative as he got older, but I don't want to start at the very beginning if it means being put off by an inferior work, so I have come to ask all you Wagner-experts where to begin!


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## scytheavatar (Aug 27, 2009)

Perhaps you could start by telling us what works of Wagner you have heard before? And what you think about them? In the first place, something's wrong if you are looking for Brahms in Wagner when Brahms has never written an opera before, when nothing about his music is opera-like. What other operas have you seen before? The Wagner operas are not exactly the most accessible of operas, so if you have zero opera experience you might want to start looking elsewhere. But anyway try Tristan und Isolde, it's the quintessential opera and hard not to like.


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## handlebar (Mar 19, 2009)

I started with the Delos series of Wagner w/o words to get a foothold on the music itself before tackling the operas as a whole. Then I watched all of the Levine series of DVD's of the Ring.
That gave me a great perspective.

Jim


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

scytheavatar said:


> Perhaps you could start by telling us what works of Wagner you have heard before? And what you think about them? In the first place, something's wrong if you are looking for Brahms in Wagner when Brahms has never written an opera before, when nothing about his music is opera-like. What other operas have you seen before? The Wagner operas are not exactly the most accessible of operas, so if you have zero opera experience you might want to start looking elsewhere. But anyway try Tristan und Isolde, it's the quintessential opera and hard not to like.


I think you misunderstand the point I'm trying to make. I'm not at all suggesting that I expect Wagner's music to be _exactly_ like Brahms, nor am I suggesting that Brahms ever wrote an opera! I was trying to establish the fact that the _type of music epitomised by Brahms_ (_i.e._not Brahms's music) is quintessentially Romantic - don't think of Brahms, think of Romanticism. It's about rich polyphony; interesting but not daring tonality; less dependence on form than in the classical period, but still with a noticeable presence _etc. etc._

Those kinds of things can be expressed about any musician. Either a composer is generally polyphonic or not; they either stick to tonics and dominants or they modulate to unrelated keys or have no tonality whatsoever; they either demonstrate control of a form, or lack any structure at all.

So the point I was making by saying that I want to hear the most Brahms-like music of Wagner is that I want to know exactly which of Wagner's music is most 'conservatively Romantic', to put it crudely.

I am not in the slightest bit an inexperienced listener and I am more than familiar with a large range of Romantic operas, just as I am with the music of the Romantic period in general of many, many composers. I just listen narrowly because this period astounds me more than any other. This is exactly why I was hoping not to hear the usual 'try Tristan and Isolde, it's the best!' because it's the very opening of that opera which is hailed as the catalyst for the breakdown of tonality! That is the _least_ Brahmsian thing I might be able to find in Wagner and that is why, when I listened to it, I was frankly bored.

Perhaps there's just nothing in Wagner that will work for me, but I don't want easily-accessible or abridged versions of works. I don't struggle with music, I just don't (yet) like music outside the mid-late Romantic period. So, I would like to know which of Wagner's pieces are - if anything - the least adventurous!

I hope that makes sense.


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## scytheavatar (Aug 27, 2009)

In that case you should probably try Lohengrin, it's about as "conservatively romantic" for Wagner as you can get. Of course you have heard before the bridal chorus, surely you don't actually hate that? Anything from Tristan onwards is "daring tonality", anything before that less so. Try this:

http://www.amazon.com/Lohengrin-Dietrich-Fischer-Dieskau/dp/B00004VVZQ

Or for a DVD:

http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Loheng...r_1_12?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1260550588&sr=1-12


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Lohengrin I would agree. There is nothing boring about tristan, the first 2 bars are exceedingly magical!!


Wagner was not really late romantic. The majority of his music was writting during the mid-romantic period and he was already dead by the time truly late-romantic composers such as Dvorak reached their prime.
His music was nevertheless groundbreaking


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

emiellucifuge said:


> Lohengrin I would agree. There is nothing boring about tristan, the first 2 bars are exceedingly magical!!


Thanks for these initial suggestions; I'll give _Lohengrin_ a shot. Maybe my mind is just too simple to appreciate the sublime nature of Tristan's opening.  I'll come back to it in fifty years and see what I think then!



emiellucifuge said:


> Wagner was not really late romantic. The majority of his music was writting during the mid-romantic period and he was already dead by the time truly late-romantic composers such as Dvorak reached their prime.
> His music was nevertheless groundbreaking


Yes, I suppose I was being a bit lax with the truth on that one - I got the dates all muddled in my head!


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## Il Seraglio (Sep 14, 2009)

You'll never find anything by Wagner that Brahms would have approved of. I hope that doesn't sound too crude. But I agree with emiellucifuge. His earlier operas pre-Tristan are his most broadly melodic. Lohengrin and Tannhauser being the strongest and the Flying Dutchman being (in my opinion) the weakest.

Out of Wagner's later operas, the Mastersingers of Nuremburg was the most accessible and immediately enjoyable for me, it was also a rare instance where Wagner (whose work has a reputation for its seriousness) delved into comic opera. However, it still has that trademark musical 'ugliness' that sets Wagner firmly among his peers Bruckner and Liszt at Weimar.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

Il Seraglio said:


> You'll never find anything by Wagner that Brahms would have approved of.


Probably not entirely true:



> Do you think I'm so narrow-minded that I, too, cannot be charmed
> by the gaiety and greatness of *Die Meistersinger*? Johannes Brahms


This passage is preserved in Kalbeck's extensive biography of Brahms.

Now, I've made previous mention of the 'increased exposure' method for approaching Wagner, typified in this post, but more and more, I've discovered that numerous people have had the 'full-on-epiphany' as characterized (for example) in this post. Hey, and for those people who arrive via the 'epiphany' route, you have some pretty good company in Bruno Walter.

I guess the performing 'role-model' for the _poco-a-poco_ method is James Morris, who said that he started with the _Abschied_ (from _Die Walküre_) and worked outward from there.


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## Il Seraglio (Sep 14, 2009)

Chi_townPhilly said:


> Probably not entirely true:
> 
> This passage is preserved in Kalbeck's extensive biography of Brahms.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I need to stop using so many platitudes when talking about this sort of thing. Just prejudices from my knowledge of the Leipzig vs. Weimar rivalry and how Brahms and Wagner seemed so at odds with eachother at the time.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Chi_townPhilly said:


> I've discovered that numerous people have had the 'full-on-epiphany' as characterized (for example) in this post.


I'm currently in epiphany mode - so far I've worked my way up through the Ring to the last act of Siegfried (watching it on Met Player) and I know I'm coming back for more when I get a better version, although the traditional route is quite a good starting point to get the basic story.

What didn't work for me was just listening incidentally - I tried listening to Tristan around the house and found I just couldn't wait to turn it off. I need to match the story, emotions, characters and music to "get" Wagner (whereas I'll cheerfully listen to Puccini, Verdi, Handel etc without really having a clue what is going on, although it helps that my Italian is pretty good while my German is primitive).

If it hadn't been for forums like these I would never have come back for more. Thank you all on this thread and others for your knowledge and inspiration.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

I started out working into Wagner and then had a full-on epiphany after a little while. CTP, of course, was a great help to me, recommending the "Wagner Box" from Decca, which I got about a year ago now I suppose. I couldn't really get into the performances for whatever reason (though I didn't listen to all of them) except for a pretty spectacular "Flying Dutchman" which I'd guess was my first step. It is a pretty spectacular opera, and it worked for me.

And then the full-on epiphany struck when I started listening to the Ring, especially after I ordered and received Krauss' Bayreuth Rheingold. And then my viola teacher gave me the Solti Ring in full, and that was it.

So yeah, maybe look for the Flying Dutchman? I've been known to become attached to composers by unusual means (Mahler 6 and Sibelius 3 for instance), but maybe this one's at least somewhat normal...


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## Edward Elgar (Mar 22, 2006)

You need to start with the Ring, take a plunge in at the deep end! It's by far his best and most important work. Try to see the operas on DVD if you can because it's just as visual a treat as an aural one. Also, you must have a lot of time on your hands. The Ring experience went by quite quickly for me as I really got drawn in by the plot which can be interpreted in so many different ways. It's not a simple dungeons and dragons yarn, it's a microcosm of human nature!


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> Try to see the operas on DVD if you can because it's just as visual a treat as an aural one.


Wagner is one of those operatic composers that don't look very well at stage. It's easy to stage Verdi or Mozart with their realistic operas about realistic people (usually), but Wagner can't take conventionality, Brunhilde or Isolde with face of boring housewife or gods dressed in some rags doesn't make the cut, it's just unacceptable and ruins everything. It's better to read the libretto before listening to one act, then listen to it, then read libretto for another act, and so on, enjoy the audio record only, so you will be able to imagine supernally beautiful valkyries descending from the stormy sky instead of watching annoying parody with ugly singer walking around in silly custome.


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## scytheavatar (Aug 27, 2009)

Edward Elgar said:


> You need to start with the Ring, take a plunge in at the deep end! It's by far his best and most important work.


Nope it's not, his best work is probably still either Tristan und Isolde for pure dramatic concentration, or Die Meistersinger for consistent quality. The Ring is actually quite an inconsistent work, Siegfried is terrific, Das Rheingold is good, Die Walküre has great music but has long boring parts, Götterdämmerung is an absolute chore to listen through. All of his Fliegende Holländer and beyond works are masterpieces, so none of his works can be considered *BY FAR* his best and most important work.



Aramis said:


> Wagner is one of those operatic composers that don't look very well at stage. It's easy to stage Verdi or Mozart with their realistic operas about realistic people (usually), but Wagner can't take conventionality, Brunhilde or Isolde with face of boring housewife or gods dressed in some rags doesn't make the cut, it's just unacceptable and ruins everything. It's better to read the libretto before listening to one act, then listen to it, then read libretto for another act, and so on, enjoy the audio record only, so you will be able to imagine supernally beautiful valkyries descending from the stormy sky instead of watching annoying parody with ugly singer walking around in silly custome.


What Wagner DVDs have you watched before?


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## Edward Elgar (Mar 22, 2006)

Aramis said:


> Wagner is one of those operatic composers that don't look very well at stage. It's easy to stage Verdi or Mozart with their realistic operas about realistic people (usually), but Wagner can't take conventionality, Brunhilde or Isolde with face of boring housewife or gods dressed in some rags doesn't make the cut, it's just unacceptable and ruins everything. It's better to read the libretto before listening to one act, then listen to it, then read libretto for another act, and so on, enjoy the audio record only, so you will be able to imagine supernally beautiful valkyries descending from the stormy sky instead of watching annoying parody with ugly singer walking around in silly custome.


There have been some good recorded productions recently. The one I've seen is at the Royal Opera House in Covent Garden recorded in 2007. The joy of the Ring is that the staging need not be conventional which, I agree, can be quite silly with the horned helmets and cardboard dragons! The story of the ring is analogous to any human social construction so the staging possibilities are endless.


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## Edward Elgar (Mar 22, 2006)

scytheavatar said:


> Nope it's not, his best work is probably still either Tristan und Isolde for pure dramatic concentration, or Die Meistersinger for consistent quality. The Ring is actually quite an inconsistent work, Siegfried is terrific, Das Rheingold is good, Die Walküre has great music but has long boring parts, Götterdämmerung is an absolute chore to listen through. All of his Fliegende Holländer and beyond works are masterpieces, so none of his works can be considered *BY FAR* his best and most important work.


Mmm, Wagner is credited with the invention, if not the complete development of, the leitmotif. This technique is used most in the Ring, and in such ingenious ways it trumps all his other operas.



scytheavatar said:


> What Wagner DVDs have you watched before?


Check out my previous post.


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## scytheavatar (Aug 27, 2009)

Edward Elgar said:


> Mmm, Wagner is credited with the invention, if not the complete development of, the leitmotif. This technique is used most in the Ring, and in such ingenious ways it trumps all his other operas.


And it isn't used in his other operas?!?!?


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## Edward Elgar (Mar 22, 2006)

scytheavatar said:


> And it isn't used in his other operas?!?!?


Did I say that?! Don't be one of the many people I converse with who make stuff up to strengthen their argument. Read a little more closely at what I wrote in response to your last post. I implied leitmotifs are used _more_ in the Ring than in his other operas, not that he omitted the leitmotif technique for his other operas which you are mindlessly asserting I said!

You can't deny that the Ring trumps all other operas in terms of this technique. These leitmotifs are so ingeniously interwoven we are given an insight into the psychology of the various characters, more so than in other Wagner operas that use the same technique, but not to the level of the Ring.

Another point which I believe makes the Ring Wagner's masterpiece is that he made up the story from Norse and Germanic mythology and wrote the libretto himself. Saying that, he did write the libretti for all his other operas too, but these were ready made stories that needed little or no manipulation.

You may prefer Wagner's other operas to the Ring, but that doesn't affect the fact that Wagner's Ring is his grandest and most probably his greatest work.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> What Wagner DVDs have you watched before?


Boulez Valkyrie, Levine's Rheingold, Schneider's Lohengrin, Barenboim's Tristan und Isolde... okay, I didn't watch the last one entirely, Isolde is just do terrible that I can't stand her. But it counts!


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## ozradio (Oct 23, 2008)

Polednice said:


> Hello, hello, hello!
> 
> I have a question - where do I start with Wagner? From the off, please bear in mind that I am emphatically _not_ asking which of Wagner's works are the 'best', so don't assume that listing the most critically acclaimed will help me out  Let me explain...


I'm pretty new to classical, listening for a couple years. I started with Solti's Ring cycle. I'd never heard any Wagner before and my opera experience had been Mozart's big four. I received it in August and listened to the entire thing twice within a month. Even with a wife, three young kids, and working full time I got so engrossed that I made time during evenings and weekends to sit and follow along with the libretto. I was surprised how well, to me, the operas lived up to the hype, even for a new guy. I've been listening to non-Wagner box sets since then, but that 14-disc set is one of the jewels of my collection. Can't wait to get back to it.


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## scytheavatar (Aug 27, 2009)

Edward Elgar said:


> You can't deny that the Ring trumps all other operas in terms of this technique. These leitmotifs are so ingeniously interwoven we are given an insight into the psychology of the various characters, more so than in other Wagner operas that use the same technique, but not to the level of the Ring.


I really struggle to see how the Ring "ingeniously interwoven the leitmotifs" and "given an insight into the psychology of the various characters" better than Tristan und Isolde.



Edward Elgar said:


> Another point which I believe makes the Ring Wagner's masterpiece is that he made up the story from Norse and Germanic mythology and wrote the libretto himself. Saying that, he did write the libretti for all his other operas too, but these were ready made stories that needed little or no manipulation.


And what story that needed little or no manipulation did he get Die Meistersinger from?


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## scytheavatar (Aug 27, 2009)

Aramis said:


> Boulez Valkyrie, Levine's Rheingold, Schneider's Lohengrin, Barenboim's Tristan und Isolde... okay, I didn't watch the last one entirely, Isolde is just do terrible that I can't stand her. But it counts!


Well, all these are quite dull productions (I would assume that you were talking about the Ponnelle Tristan, Barenboim did 3 Tristan DVDs in case you didn't know). But yeah, some people hate the not so dull productions, so maybe you are the opposite and you'll like the Barenboim Ring and the Barenboim/Muller Tristan more. But anyway, contrary to what many people claim opera isn't just the music, watching the DVD is a different experience from listening to the CD, and there's room for both.


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## violadamore2 (Mar 6, 2010)

> But anyway try Tristan und Isolde, it's the quintessential opera and hard not to like.


Tristan is habit forming. When I hear a portion of it, it keeps going on and on in my head.
My dream of time traveling is to be able to go the first few rehearsals and performance of Tristan in Munich. Did their experince of it be like ours was/is to Legeti or Pendericki?


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## Il Seraglio (Sep 14, 2009)

Aramis said:


> Boulez Valkyrie, Levine's Rheingold, Schneider's Lohengrin, Barenboim's Tristan und Isolde... okay, I didn't watch the last one entirely, Isolde is just do terrible that I can't stand her. But it counts!


In fairness, Tristan and Isolde have to be among the most unlikeable lead characters in any opera, although generating sympathy for them would be missing the point.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Il Seraglio said:


> In fairness, Tristan and Isolde have to be among the most unlikeable lead characters in any opera, although generating sympathy for them would be missing the point.


Are they worse than Siegfried? (I haven't seen Tristan). I think he's a spoilt self-satisified ungrateful creep who doesn't hesitate to forcibly procure an unwilling woman for a man he's just met. And yet... I can't stop watching the Ring.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

mamascarlatti said:


> Are they worse than Siegfried? (I haven't seen Tristan). I think he's a spoilt self-satisified ungrateful creep *who doesn't hesitate to forcibly procure an unwilling woman for a man he's just met*. And yet... I can't stop watching the Ring.


Good point, but we could also consider he is a great and honorable guy, who was drugged and while under the influence, did some heinous deeds. In fact, if I go that route, I mabye should change my avatar to Siegfried since Wotan is anything but a morally pure fellow.

SCORE! 10th old forgotten Wagner thread dragged up! :lol:


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Florestan said:


> Good point, but we could also consider he is a great and honorable guy, who was drugged and while under the influence, did some heinous deeds. In fact, if I go that route, I mabye should change my avatar to Siegfried since Wotan is anything but a morally pure fellow.
> 
> SCORE! 10th old forgotten Wagner thread dragged up! :lol:


I do think you found them all by now


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Pugg said:


> I do think you found them all by now


I will keep trying though.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

By now the person who started this thread may have died heroically and been carried to Walhall by Ortlinde, where Wotan's daughters bring him honeyed mead by day and something too ghastly to contemplate by night.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Aramis said:


> Wagner is one of those operatic composers that don't look very well at stage. It's easy to stage Verdi or Mozart with their realistic operas about realistic people (usually), but *Wagner can't take conventionality, Brunhilde or Isolde with face of boring housewife or gods dressed in some rags doesn't make the cut, it's just unacceptable and ruins everything.* It's better to read the libretto before listening to one act, then listen to it, then read libretto for another act, and so on, enjoy the audio record only, so you will be able to imagine supernally beautiful valkyries descending from the stormy sky instead of watching annoying parody with ugly singer walking around in silly custome.


Yes agreed! Especially in HDD


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Il Seraglio said:


> In fairness, Tristan and Isolde have to be among the most unlikeable lead characters in any opera, although generating sympathy for them would be missing the point.


This is the problem I have with Wagner. I find I cannot sympathise with any of his characters. Mozart, Verdi, Puccini, yes. Wagner? For all the splendour of some of the music - no!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> This is the problem I have with Wagner. I find I cannot sympathise with any of his characters. Mozart, Verdi, Puccini, yes. Wagner? For all the splendour of some of the music - no!


We know. You can't sympathize. You tell us at every available opportunity. You must have told us a dozen times by now.

Is there a new Wagner thread? Is there, for that matter, a Wagner thread begun in 2009 and pointlessly revived? Watch out! DavidA will show up sooner or later to tell us that Wagner's operas are too long, that the librettos are poor, and that he can't sympathize with any of the characters.

Most people don't feel the need to tell the world over and over and over what they can't appreciate. Does this peculiar compulsion have a clinical name, or is it yet unknown to medical science?


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Aramis said:


> Wagner is one of those operatic composers that don't look very well at stage. It's easy to stage Verdi or Mozart with their realistic operas about realistic people (usually), but Wagner can't take conventionality, Brunhilde or Isolde with face of boring housewife or gods dressed in some rags doesn't make the cut, it's just unacceptable and ruins everything. It's better to read the libretto before listening to one act, then listen to it, then read libretto for another act, and so on, enjoy the audio record only, so you will be able to imagine supernally beautiful valkyries descending from the stormy sky instead of watching annoying parody with ugly singer walking around in silly custome.


I'm not sure I could agree with this less. I don't really find Mozart or Verdi operas to be especially realistic, and the same withe characters. But there is, often, a more naturalistic approach to the presentation. Which, in my opinion, meshes poorly with the art form of opera, which could hardly be more unnatural, stylistic.

I did not get into watching opera (and thus listened much less) until I realized that it didn't have to be done with ruffles and old-timey dresses and wigs, whether by being more modern stories (such as Nixon in China) or through different production approaches.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> We know. You can't sympathize. You tell us at every available opportunity. You must have told us a dozen times by now.
> 
> Is there a new Wagner thread? Is there, for that matter, a Wagner thread begun in 2009 and pointlessly revived? Watch out! DavidA will show up sooner or later to tell us that Wagner's operas are too long, that the librettos are poor, and that he can't sympathize with any of the characters.
> 
> Most people don't feel the need to tell the world over and over and over what they can't appreciate. Does this peculiar compulsion have a clinical name, or is it yet unknown to medical science?


It seems like pretty healthy behavior to me. But then, I spend hours every day on country music sites just so I can reiterate how much I hate country music.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

I started with the Solti Ring and it is still my favorite Wagner recording.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> We know. You can't sympathize. You tell us at every available opportunity. You must have told us a dozen times by now.


Only a dozen. I think you may be underestimating here Wood!:lol: I love the Dylan quote that he once gave early on in his career when asked what his songs were about. Why, some are about three minutes long and some are about fifteen minutes long was broadly his response. I think Wagners response to the length of his operas would have been in a similar vein. Exactly as long as they need to be to get the message across!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

gellio said:


> I started with the Solti Ring and it is still my favorite Wagner recording.


I am with you on this, all the way.!!


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