# A Waldstein Request



## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

I'm trying to find a recording of someone who plays it in a particular way (not that I've heard one like it before), and was wondering if you could bear to listen to my description and then give me a suggestion or two.

First movement (obviously!): two main themes. From the very beginning, there's that repeated quaver theme with imitations in the upper register. Then there's the gorgeous second theme just a little while after; a set of descending and ascending chords like a beautiful exhale and inhale.

What I'm looking for is someone who takes that second theme quite quickly. Obviously not at a ridiculous pace, but most of the recordings I know linger too much on the beauty of the phrase, rather than getting carried away by it. I want to feel like I've skipped a breath, and that's only going to work if they keep going at a good pace.

Any ideas?

If not, just tell me which is the fastest you know! Relatively speaking, of course, because if they take the first theme at rocket speed, then a quick second theme is going to sound so good anyway.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

Sorry,...Glenn never got around to that one.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

kv466 said:


> Sorry,...Glenn never got around to that one.


Glenn's in my bad books anyway.


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## Ravellian (Aug 17, 2009)

Well, many Beethoven sonatas are like that, with the driving first theme and lyrical second theme, the _correct_ interpretation would be the one with a fairly consistent tempo throughout. My favorite recordings of the piano sonatas are with John O'Conor, so I recommend that.. his interpretations are uniformly excellent.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

Polednice said:


> Glenn's in my bad books anyway.


Just me being me, Piggy. Actually, now you got me thinking and I'll prolly be hearing this damned sonata 30 times over the next few hours! My favorite is Arrau's live version on video; I think it was his 80th Birthday, not sure.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Ravellian said:


> Well, many Beethoven sonatas are like that, with the driving first theme and lyrical second theme, the _correct_ interpretation would be the one with a fairly consistent tempo throughout. My favorite recordings of the piano sonatas are with John O'Conor, so I recommend that.. his interpretations are uniformly excellent.


You'll notice, of course, that I did not ask for the correct interpretation, so humour me or leave me alone.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Cziffra, from around 1960 I think. When he played in concert he tended to get wired; nothing was slow.


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## Ravellian (Aug 17, 2009)

Polednice said:


> You'll notice, of course, that I did not ask for the correct interpretation, so humour me or leave me alone.


I'm not sure what you want. Some people do take the lyrical theme too slowly, which is annoying. But do you seriously want the lyrical theme to be at a faster tempo than the 1st theme? That's just stupid, nobody plays it like that.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Didn't read your whole description, but the only recording that's ever satisfied me of the finale so completely and reveals the great inherent musicality of it, is this recording of Emil Gilels. Just listen to the way he does those those, and the arpeggios are the clearest and most expressively voiced I've ever heard, the rhythm is perfect.

In contrast to KV, I was not originally fond of Arrau's version, its too "noodly". Now I can put up with it, but Gilels makes this piece listen effortlessly in my opinion.






You can search the first movements, if you want on youtube, its all there, but the really challenge I find is in finding a pianist that can really bring the passion out of the finale.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Thank you very much clavi for also totally disregarding the OP! 

Ravellian, all I'm saying is that, quite clearly, different pianists will take the second theme and different speeds, and I want the quickest!


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## Amfibius (Jul 19, 2006)

Friedrich Gulda?


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

If only I had someone play the second theme at Gulda speed but the first theme at everyone else's speed! 

I am quickly coming to the conclusion that Beethoven just wrote the sonata incorrectly.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

If you are looking for a fast second section, Gilels does not do that, he lingers on the chords, but it is my favorite interpretation.

But another favorite of my starts with a very brisk tempo, Gulda's rendition. And he wastes no time on the next chordal theme, I like it a lot but not as much as the Gilels.

Amfibius beat me to it!


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

I do think this theory is not the end all be all of the Waldstein sonata. This is because I really love Gilel's first movement. You could also try Horowitz, although I think the middle tempo is not quite fast enough for your theory.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

For some reason, I downloaded Kovacevich a few weeks ago thinking he did it as I liked, but this thread was started because he disappointed me today!


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

For a more recent interpretation similar to Gulda, see Fazil Say, it has perhaps more subtlety than the Gulda, but its also weirder, and it doesn't quite have the ratio you speak of.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Aha! This is more like it. Ronald Brautigam. That first chord can linger, but the ones in succession must go quickly! Sadly, it's fortepiano.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Polednice said:


> Sadly, it's fortepiano.
> ]


No need to diss the fortepiano, its a great instrument, not so obsolete as you might think. This is a great performance. The light action of the fortepiano and the tone color change when you hit the keys harder readily enables and probably encourages the interpretational particulars you are looking for.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

clavichorder said:


> No need to diss the fortepiano, its a great instrument, not so obsolete as you might think. This is a great performance. The light action of the fortepiano and the tone color change when you hit the keys harder readily enables and probably encourages the interpretational particulars you are looking for.


I'm sure it's a wonderful instrument, just not for me.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Well, hopefully this thread has been of some help to you then.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

clavichorder said:


> Well, hopefully this thread has been of some help to you then.


Not in the least!


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## Klavierspieler (Jul 16, 2011)

I very much enjoy András Schiff's interpretation:


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Polednice said:


> Not in the least!


Hmph! I think I speak for _Clavi_ when I say we will never come to your aid again.

:scold:

or maybe

ut:


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Klavierspieler said:


> I very much enjoy András Schiff's interpretation:


Andras Schiff is one of the best interpreters of Beethoven...ever. I adore his lectures on the sonatas.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

A kid named Kogima at YouTube.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Perhaps Polednice, you should take it upon yourself to perform this Sonata in the way you want to hear it!


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

tdc said:


> Perhaps Polednice, you should take it upon yourself to perform this Sonata in the way you want to hear it!


There's the challenge that's been coming on! Do it!


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Vaneyes said:


> A kid named Kogima at YouTube.


You certainly replaced your post with a vastly different interpretation.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

I left my book of the Beethoven sonatas at home, but I'll learn the first movement and play it properly just for you folks!


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Polednice said:


> I left my book of the Beethoven sonatas at home, but I'll learn the first movement and play it properly just for you folks!


Only if you want to, its really so you can interpret it the way you want it to be heard. I'd be happy to listen though to your playing though, and compare pianos via youtube(ha!)

Come to it, I haven't done any recording in ages. Its because I was really dissatisfied for a while with my own playing, maybe I'm good enough at the Bach inventions now that I'd be satisfied...


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

clavichorder said:


> Only if you want to, its really so you can interpret it the way you want it to be heard. I'd be happy to listen though to your playing though, and compare pianos via youtube(ha!)
> 
> Come to it, I haven't done any recording in ages. Its because I was really dissatisfied for a while with my own playing, maybe I'm good enough at the Bach inventions now that I'd be satisfied...


I wouldn't mind because I've actually already learned the first half of the first movement for precisely this reason!  I haven't played it in a while though, it'd need polishing. I only have a phone to record with though. :/


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Klavierspieler said:


> I very much enjoy András Schiff's interpretation:


Thanks for the Schiff, Klavier. It doesn't run away with the second theme, but it doesn't linger on them sentimentally like most other recordings do. I think I'll stick with this one. 

So the thread was useful after all!


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## Amfibius (Jul 19, 2006)

The third movement of the Schiff is particularly good! Dreamy and ethereal.


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## jdavid (Oct 4, 2011)

I have two recordings, one from the complete cycle by Claude Frank (still living, but retired), and one by Rada Lupu. I was pretty sure Frank's would be what you are describing and I was right. Frank plays it at a true Allegro Con Brio and pulls back slightly as he reaches the second thematic section (the half-note chords) but he resumes his very bright tempo when he hits the new theme.

Lupu's recording is slower from the get go - more like Allegro but barely - was surprised as he has the chops to play it however he chooses. Like Frank, he sets up the 2nd theme by drawing back slightly in the transition but then resumes his original tempo.

 I'm hungry and have no food in the house 



Polednice said:


> What I'm looking for is someone who takes that second theme quite quickly. Obviously not at a ridiculous pace, but most of the recordings I know linger too much on the beauty of the phrase, rather than getting carried away by it. I want to feel like I've skipped a breath, and that's only going to work if they keep going at a good pace.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

jdavid said:


> [...]
> Lupu's recording is slower from the get go - more like Allegro but barely - was surprised as he has the chops to play it however he chooses. Like Frank, he sets up the 2nd theme by drawing back slightly in the transition but then resumes his original tempo.
> [...]
> (


Why are you surprised? Of course Lupu 'has the chops'. Have you considered that he actually played it as he chose to? Neither your nor _Polednice_'s concept of how the music should be played has any relevance to Lupu - or Schiff or Cziffra for that matter. They all 'have the chops', and interpret the music the way it works for them, on the day they recorded it.


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## jdavid (Oct 4, 2011)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Why are you surprised? Of course Lupu 'has the chops'. Have you considered that he actually played it as he chose to? Neither your nor _Polednice_'s concept of how the music should be played has any relevance to Lupu - or Schiff or Cziffra for that matter. They all 'have the chops', and interpret the music the way it works for them, on the day they recorded it.


Haha. You know you really should credit Cliff Notes for your post.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

jdavid said:


> Haha. You know you really should credit Cliff Notes for your post.


Cliff wasn't around when I needed him. I met him in the local Walmart yesterday though; he had nothing good to say about you.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

Ok, Poles! Let's settle this once and for all!


How about you get off your **** (isn't that how you guys say it?) and record us this funky version you want to hear,...yourself! Did you ever think about that, my friendly pig? If what you want ain't out there,...do it yourself!


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## jdavid (Oct 4, 2011)

Why would he? I've never met him.



Hilltroll72 said:


> Cliff wasn't around when I needed him. I met him in the local Walmart yesterday though; he had nothing good to say about you.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

kv466 said:


> Ok, Poles! Let's settle this once and for all!
> 
> How about you get off your **** (isn't that how you guys say it?) and record us this funky version you want to hear,...yourself! Did you ever think about that, my friendly pig? If what you want ain't out there,...do it yourself!


Indeed, it is "get off your ****", and off my **** I shall get, for fear of punishment! 

I have to go all the way to IMSLP with my browser to get the sheet music though. Tiiiiring.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

jdavid said:


> Why would he? I've never met him.


Part of his antagonism toward you is that you have never acknowledged his assistance. Now you say that you have never even met him. You remind me of a classmate in high school who claimed ignorance of the existence of Classic Comics.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

I have found the one for me in Peter Takacs new release of the complete sonatas!


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Polednice said:


> I have found the one for me in Peter Takacs new release of the complete sonatas!


Hmm, I'll have to look for that.


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