# Round 2:Duets; Nilsson and Corelli plus Caballe and Domingo



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)




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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Whose not who's. Walk of shame lol. Both are wonderful to me. I like Domingo more than usual. Nilsson sings her best Verdi in this scene.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

No _ppp_ on the final _in ciel_ for the Nilsson-Corelli team, but they get a stupendous double-_diminuendo_ at the end. 
And we see Nilsson can sing softly elsewhere.

I prefer Corelli over Domingo any day or night, both in timbre and heft; and also physical presence.

When comes to _pp_, _ppp_, or _pppp_, there's no one like Caballe; Domingo's attempt in the final unison _in ciel_ does him credit.

But I still prefer Corelli/Nilsson for his two _diminuendi _ and the their perfectly graduated _diminuendo_.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

MAS said:


> No _ppp_ on the final _in ciel_ for the Nilsson-Corelli team, but they get a stupendous double-_diminuendo_ at the end.
> And we see Nilsson can sing softly elsewhere.
> 
> I prefer Corelli over Domingo any day or night, both in timbre and heft; and also physical presence.
> ...


I can't remember such combined graduated 
diminuendos performed so well as by C/N here


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

You know, I literally got goosebumps from Nilsson/Corelli. The tempo (which was a bit slower and therefore exhibited more urgency in its way) and those diminuendos that were totally spectacular just blew me away. 
Not only that but their voices seemed to blend much better together.
I fully expected to go for Caballe but Nilsson threw me a real curve with her surprisingly stunning diminuendos.
As lovely as his voice was, I don't think Domingo was a match against Corelli in this.
Of course all 4 were wonderful but my goosebumps gave me the answer.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> You know, I literally got goosebumps from Nilsson/Corelli. The tempo (which was a bit slower and therefore exhibited more urgency in its way) and those diminuendos that were totally spectacular just blew me away.
> Not only that but their voices seemed to blend much better together.
> I fully expected to go for Caballe but Nilsson threw me a real curve with her surprisingly stunning diminuendos.
> As lovely as his voice was, I don't think Domingo was a match against Corelli in this.
> Of course all 4 were wonderful but my goosebumps gave me the answer.


I totally agree! Also remember Nilsson and Corelli were one of the most successful singing pairs in operatic history with all their Turandots. Such chemistry! Nillson is not a singer with a glorious Italiante sound like Ponselle's but her singing is a technical tour de force that dazzles.


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## Shaafee Shameem (Aug 4, 2021)

Of the four singers here, Caballe is the one I love the most. At her best, she could be ‘superb’ indeed, but she was probably the most inconsistent of the greats, and this seems to be not due to any particular flaw as it is with most others, but rather due to wrong choices and lack of determination at times. Here, she does something typical of her that I don’t like very much, excessively using her overly transparent piano singing. It may work as a momentary effect, but continuous use of it seems artificial. Domingo while poignant at times, particularly in the ‘Morir! sì pura e bella! Morir per me d’amore’, is straining his lyric voice a lot here. Corelli is excessively melodramatic as usual, and rhythmically sloppy at times. His diction and phrasing too isn’t very good. His diminuendos are great though. Nilsson, who I am not much fond of, shines the most here. Her, “Presago il core della tua condanna, In questa tomba che per te s’apriva….” is wonderful, so solemn and noble but tender. She is capable of singing softly, but doesn’t overdo it like Caballe. Zubin Mehta’s conducting too deserves credit. Overall, I prefer Nilsson-Corelli, mainly for Nilsson.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I believe this is the first time I've ever seen the score (though in piano reduction) of this scene. Verdi marks virtually the whole "O terra addio" section _*pp*, *ppp*_ and _*pppp*_. I have no doubt that he knew perfectly well that two operatic voices in a big theater would actually turn these dynamics into *mf*, *mp *and *p,* with perhaps an occasional stab at _*pp*_, depending on the singer. But it's clear that he was aiming for an ethereal effect, and Caballe and Domingo undoubtedly come closer to realizing his intentions. This would normally earn them my vote of preference, but I have to say that Corelli's hero-sized Radames impresses me much more than Domingo's perfectly decent one. A few unnecassry but inevitable scoops aside, Corelli not only has the vocal charisma but behaves in a tolerably musicianly manner as well. I'm not a Corelli fan in general, but there are certain roles that seem made for him. This is one. Of the ladies, I prefer Caballe to Nilsson in this repertoire, mainly for her warmer timbre, though Nilsson sings and interprets respectably. She goes sharp a few times, but this was frequently a problem for her and doesn't detract too much (certainly no more than Tebaldi's flat high notes).

I don't find this an easy choice, but the larger-scale vocal profile of the Nilsson-Corelli team conveys more of the grandeur of the opera while not slighting the intimacy of the scene. It's many musical felicities notwithstanding, I don't find _Aida_ a particularly affecting work, and the sense of grandeur which only big voices - and perhaps elephants - can convey seems to me an essential part of its appeal.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Hard call but, for me, neither of these would win in competition with either of the first two.

The only person here who isn't a natural for this scene is Nilsson and I thought she did a good job, rounding out her sound much more than I expected. But, possibly because she is so focused on that task, and also because this is just not her arena she doesn't have the spontaneous feel for the phrases that the best have. Franco generally does a very good job with restraint and that heroic sound. But, at least on this recording, he simply couldn't ascend without a powerful heroic sound and that is just not what most of this is about.

Domingo and Caballe should be just about perfect for this scene, their voices having both the strength and beauty called for. And rarely can Domingo have taken a pianissimo B flat like the one at the very end...I think Caballe may have sung one or two before ! But this makes the end result all the more dissapointing. Caballe is said to have been very dissapointed that she was never regarded as a great artist. But as I listen I find myself thinking "well....you've just got to start by thinking a little more about what you're character is saying." At crucial moments she sounds like someone singing a song! And Domingo's often mentioned generic phrasing is on ample display. If the final Bflat is part of his arsenal then how come it and all of the other shadings he could have mastered aren't on display. As much as he was he could have been so much more.

Because I feel that their giving their best to a degree the other two are not, I go with Calaf and Turandot!


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## Shaafee Shameem (Aug 4, 2021)

ScottK said:


> Caballe is said to have been very dissapointed that she was never regarded as a great artist.


By whom was she not regarded as a great artist? 
When Callas was asked whom she regarded as her successor, she said "Only Caballe." Similarly, Tebaldi and other great singers considered Caballe the last great artist.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Shaafee Shameem said:


> By whom was she not regarded as a great artist?
> When Callas was asked whom she regarded as her successor, she said "Only Caballe." Similarly, Tebaldi and other great singers considered Caballe the last great artist.


I think she was a fine artist who grew too enamored of the sounds she could make and became increasingly self-indulgent. Her voice lost its bloom but not its pianissimo, and she never lost an opportunity to flaunt it.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I don't find _Aida_ a particularly affecting work, and the sense of grandeur which only big voices - and perhaps elephants - can convey seems to me an essential part of its appeal.


Perhaps this is indicative of where I sometimes differ from you in my opera tastes as Aida is one of my 5 favorite operas LOL. Mostly I agree with what you write


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Shaafee Shameem said:


> By whom was she not regarded as a great artist?
> When Callas was asked whom she regarded as her successor, she said "Only Caballe." Similarly, Tebaldi and other great singers considered Caballe the last great artist.


She was often sensational, but much her exceptional work was from her pinnacle- her L' Orange Norma- back to her first albums in my opinion. Notable though, most here were very impressed with her O Patria Mia which was recorded 4 years later than the Norma..


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Well, I'm going to go against the tide and vote for Caballé and Domingo. I just can't get over my Nilsson problem. I don't really like the sound she makes, and never have. She sings this music better than I would have expected and the voice does sound a bit warmer than it usually does, but she is up against Caballé in one of her best recorded roles. Caballé's voice is surpassingly beautiful and her pianissimi are to die for. I don't think on this occasion she overdoes them. After all, she is just fulfilling Verdi's injunctions in the score and the end result is probably finer than even he could ever hope for. As Woodduck has stated, the copious p, pp and ppp markings are no doubt due to the fact that he was used to singers belting out their music.

When it comes to the comparison between Corelli and Domingo, I was rather surprised to find that I marginally prefer Domingo here. Corelli does some amazing diminuendi, but I do find the lisp a little distracting and he occasionally scoops. Against that, there is admittedly the splendour of his actual sound. Still, I think I prefer Domingo's more integrated sound and, as so often, he blends really well with his partner, with whom he made many recordings.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Shaafee Shameem said:


> By whom was she not regarded as a great artist?
> When Callas was asked whom she regarded as her successor, she said "Only Caballe." Similarly, Tebaldi and other great singers considered Caballe the last great artist.


The head shaker I think of first is Peter G Davis:

Complaining about Miss Caballe's musical limitations at this point seems rather futile. She is always ''interpreting,'' generously applying a variety of dynamics and shadings to give the impression that something musically significant is happening, but the results often sound curiously arbitrary. When the cooing pianissimos or sudden bursts of vocal energy relate meaningfully to matters of phrasing, line or overall structure, it almost seems to come about by accident. Still, there is that beautiful sound - perhaps asking for more is just being greedy.

Will Crutchfield:

MONTSERRAT CABALLE'S peculiar recital format, of which the great soprano gave her annual specimen on Friday night in Carnegie Hall, asks a good deal of her public's patience.....The first half is a placid read-through of little-known bel canto arias

Even when she is ''on,'' Miss Caballe can be a wayward and diffident singer. But she can sing, and she was in fabulous voice!

I'm not saying Callas was insincere but I think artist's and athlete's choices of "who is the best aside from me" often need to be taken with a grain of salt! Who did DelMonaco nurture as his successor, Corelli or Bergonzi? Two guesses! The one who was NOT going to compete with him at what he did best.

Scotto, Behrens, Stratas...in the post Callas years I remember them as the theater animals who could sing and act even as their voices declined in Callas-like fashion.

Maybe more to the point....do you find Caballe, in a consistent way, to be a moving artist?


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Shaafee Shameem said:


> By whom was she not regarded as a great artist?
> When Callas was asked whom she regarded as her successor, she said "Only Caballe." Similarly, Tebaldi and other great singers considered Caballe the last great artist.


And for the record...Caballe is one of my beloved singers and, often, she certainly could and did sing artistically.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

ScottK said:


> And for the record...Caballe is one of my beloved singers and, often, she certainly could and did sing artistically.


I think it probably depends on when you catch her. The stuff from the 1960s up until about the mid 1970s is usually pretty good. Later the voice started to harden on top and to compensate she started to overindulge her floated pianissimi. I consider her recorded Aida and Elisabeth in *Don Carlo* as fine as any, and those recital discs of Rossini, Donizetti and Verdi rarities are superb.

Callas would have made that statement about Caballé in the early 1970s, when she was arguably the best Norma in the world.


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## Shaafee Shameem (Aug 4, 2021)

ScottK said:


> The head shaker I think of first is Peter G Davis:
> 
> Complaining about Miss Caballe's musical limitations at this point seems rather futile. She is always ''interpreting,'' generously applying a variety of dynamics and shadings to give the impression that something musically significant is happening, but the results often sound curiously arbitrary. When the cooing pianissimos or sudden bursts of vocal energy relate meaningfully to matters of phrasing, line or overall structure, it almost seems to come about by accident. Still, there is that beautiful sound - perhaps asking for more is just being greedy.
> 
> ...


Well, I don't think we should, or can assume what the ulterior intentions of people, artists, athletes or otherwise, are for what they say or do. Whatever her reasons may be, Callas was quite close to Caballe, and she encouraged her to sing roles she felt would suit her well(Norma), and advised her against those that wouldn't(Lady Macbeth, Abigaille). I've read that Callas even sent the earrings she wore as Norma to Caballe. As for the other singers you mention, they weren't bel canto singers, apart from Scotto, who, however, was suited less to Callas' repertoire than Caballe, although she sang them with questionable results. 
Anyways, apart from Callas, other singers, Tebaldi, Pacetti, Milanov, Mazzoleni and Tuner among others have named Caballe a fine artist. Her name pops up time to time in 'The Last Prima Donnas' as the subject of many singers' admiration. 
I find Caballe exceptionally moving at her best, though the word 'consistent' I believe cannot be applied to her at any stage in her career, apart from perhaps the late 60s. She sang too many performances(around 3800) of too many roles(88), not all suited for her. But even at her 'not so best', I find her interesting, which is to me the mark of a fine artist. The problem which some people may have regarding Caballe is that they may remember her not so best more than her best, since her 'best', in my opinion, was truly in rare, underperformed repertoire such as Bellini's La Straniera, Donizetti's Caterina Cornaro, Rossini's La Donna del Lago and Elisabetta, regina d'inghilterra, Verdi's Alzira and in roles that she didn't particularly become identified with such as Handel's Cleopatra and Mozart's Fiordiligi. In her more famous repertoire, I particularly cherish her 'Deh non volerli vittime' from Norma( which I don't think is a perfect role for her) for the pathos and tenderness in her phrasing above all. It is a performance that is as great in artistry as the old 19th century bel canto singers and Callas. I believe elegance and tenderness are the qualities I most associate with Caballe, and they work very well in her great roles.


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

You are certainly choosing between two very distinguished accounts here. Must confess that nothing has ever surpassed for me the version that introduced me to which music which was Karajan drawing miraculous sounds from the VPO while Tebaldi and Bergonzi were in John Culshaw’s acoustic DECCA tomb. Been interesting to hear Caballe opposite Corelli rather than Nilsson, whose voice was unsurpassed but never sounded Italian or particularly like a put on young slave girl. But then we are spoiled for choice. There are Price and Vickers too!


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

marlow said:


> You are certainly choosing between two very distinguished accounts here. Must confess that nothing has ever surpassed for me the version that introduced me to which music which was Karajan drawing miraculous sounds from the VPO while Tebaldi and Bergonzi were in John Culshaw's acoustic DECCA tomb. Been interesting to hear Caballe opposite Corelli rather than Nilsson, whose voice was unsurpassed but never sounded Italian or particularly like a put on young slave girl. But then we are spoiled for choice. There are Price and Vickers too!


Price and Bergonzi live with Solti is worth a listen as well!


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Shaafee Shameem said:


> Well, I don't think we should, or can assume what the ulterior intentions of people, artists, athletes or otherwise, are for what they say or do. Whatever her reasons may be, Callas was quite close to Caballe, and she encouraged her to sing roles she felt would suit her well(Norma), and advised her against those that wouldn't(Lady Macbeth, Abigaille). I've read that Callas even sent the earrings she wore as Norma to Caballe. As for the other singers you mention, they weren't bel canto singers, apart from Scotto, who, however, was suited less to Callas' repertoire than Caballe, although she sang them with questionable results.
> Anyways, apart from Callas, other singers, Tebaldi, Pacetti, Milanov, Mazzoleni and Tuner among others have named Caballe a fine artist. Her name pops up time to time in 'The Last Prima Donnas' as the subject of many singers' admiration.
> I find Caballe exceptionally moving at her best, though the word 'consistent' I believe cannot be applied to her at any stage in her career, apart from perhaps the late 60s. She sang too many performances(around 3800) of too many roles(88), not all suited for her. But even at her 'not so best', I find her interesting, which is to me the mark of a fine artist. The problem which some people may have regarding Caballe is that they may remember her not so best more than her best, since her 'best', in my opinion, was truly in rare, underperformed repertoire such as Bellini's La Straniera, Donizetti's Caterina Cornaro, Rossini's La Donna del Lago and Elisabetta, regina d'inghilterra, Verdi's Alzira and in roles that she didn't particularly become identified with such as Handel's Cleopatra and Mozart's Fiordiligi. In her more famous repertoire, I particularly cherish her 'Deh non volerli vittime' from Norma( which I don't think is a perfect role for her) for the pathos and tenderness in her phrasing above all. It is a performance that is as great in artistry as the old 19th century bel canto singers and Callas. I believe elegance and tenderness are the qualities I most associate with Caballe, and they work very well in her great roles.


I've always said that if I could go back into my own listening life for an aria encore it would be for Pavarotti's Una Furtiva and Caballe's D'amor sul ali rosee!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Shaafee Shameem said:


> Well, I don't think we should, or can assume what the ulterior intentions of people, artists, athletes or otherwise, are for what they say or do. Whatever her reasons may be, Callas was quite close to Caballe, and she encouraged her to sing roles she felt would suit her well(Norma), and advised her against those that wouldn't(Lady Macbeth, Abigaille). I've read that Callas even sent the earrings she wore as Norma to Caballe. As for the other singers you mention, they weren't bel canto singers, apart from Scotto, who, however, was suited less to Callas' repertoire than Caballe, although she sang them with questionable results.
> Anyways, apart from Callas, other singers, Tebaldi, Pacetti, Milanov, Mazzoleni and Tuner among others have named Caballe a fine artist. Her name pops up time to time in 'The Last Prima Donnas' as the subject of many singers' admiration.
> I find Caballe exceptionally moving at her best, though the word 'consistent' I believe cannot be applied to her at any stage in her career, apart from perhaps the late 60s. She sang too many performances(around 3800) of too many roles(88), not all suited for her. But even at her 'not so best', I find her interesting, which is to me the mark of a fine artist. The problem which some people may have regarding Caballe is that they may remember her not so best more than her best, since her 'best', in my opinion, was truly in rare, underperformed repertoire such as Bellini's La Straniera, Donizetti's Caterina Cornaro, Rossini's La Donna del Lago and Elisabetta, regina d'inghilterra, Verdi's Alzira and in roles that she didn't particularly become identified with such as Handel's Cleopatra and Mozart's Fiordiligi. In her more famous repertoire, I particularly cherish her 'Deh non volerli vittime' from Norma( which I don't think is a perfect role for her) for the pathos and tenderness in her phrasing above all. It is a performance that is as great in artistry as the old 19th century bel canto singers and Callas. I believe elegance and tenderness are the qualities I most associate with Caballe, and they work very well in her great roles.


Isolde's Curse is certainly not a piece that come first to mind when you were thinking of something that Caballe could sing well, but I was really surprised. She can surprise you sometimes. Salome it's not one that you would expect her to excel at, and yet her version is one of the very best out there. The most interesting thing that I know about her from her book was that for her first year in music school she did not sing a note but practiced yogic breathing techniques only. Can you imagine?


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Isolde's Curse is certainly not a piece that come first to mind when you were thinking of something that Caballe could sing well, but I was really surprised. She can surprise you sometimes. Salome it's not one that you would expect her to excel at, and yet her version is one of the very best out there. The most interesting thing that I know about her from her book was that for her first year in music school she did not sing a note but practiced yogic breathing techniques only. Can you imagine?


That accounts for her tremendous breath control - in the 1972 *Don Carlo* at the Metropolitan Opera, she sings her final note after Carlo is taken and holds it until the orchestra's conclusion.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

MAS said:


> That accounts for her tremendous breath control - in the 1972 *Don Carlo* at the Metropolitan Opera, she sings her final note after Carlo is taken and holds it until the orchestra's concludes.


Yes, her breath control was phenomenal, but I sometimes think she tried to show it off too much at the expense of the music. For instance, at the climax of _Vissi d'arte_ Puccini asks that the soprano sings _perche Signor_ which takes her up to a forte top Bb, then he places a comma, which indicates she should take a breath before singing the Ab diminuendo to G on _Ah_, and then breath again before the final _perche me ne rimuneri_ (breath) _cosi_. In the Davis recording, she ignores the comma afer the top Bb and phrases through to the Ab and G diminuendo. It's quite a feat, but I'm not sure it works as well as what Puccini wrote and I've never noticed any other soprano do it.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Yes, her breath control was phenomenal, but I sometimes think she tried to show it off too much at the expense of the music. For instance, at the climax of _Vissi d'arte_ Puccini asks that the soprano sings _perche Signor_ which takes her up to a forte top Bb, then he places a comma, which indicates she should take a breath before singing the Ab diminuendo to G on _Ah_, and then breath again before the final _perche me ne rimuneri_ (breath) _cosi_. In the Davis recording, she ignores the comma afer the top Bb and phrases through to the Ab and G diminuendo. It's quite a feat, but I'm not sure it works as well as what Puccini wrote and I've never noticed any other soprano do it.


I don't think that is always a feat, I think she's more comfortable vocally continuing so she makes the, sometimes quite, wrong musical choice. At the end of o soave fanciulla she does not phrase with Domingo as she goes up to the C. He takes a breath and she does not. Without being able to quote phrases I'm certain she did the exact same thing here in the tomb scene.


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## khalid (11 mo ago)

Nilsson is doing exceptionally good here with the italianate style and smooth legato, never thought I'll like her in Verdi. Caballé will remain the queen of pianissimi and lyric singing. Although she's quite light to be an adequate Aida and her voice sound a bit tired, which was common for her after singing a taxing part, her voice would have an edge, not as rounded as usual. I wouldn't commit the blasphemy of comparing Corelli to the other. Corelli's heroic tone, sheer musicality, and diminuendos in the role are unequalled and I doubt it'll ever be. Thus the clear winner here is Nilsson and Corelli.


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## Shaafee Shameem (Aug 4, 2021)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Isolde's Curse is certainly not a piece that come first to mind when you were thinking of something that Caballe could sing well, but I was really surprised. She can surprise you sometimes. Salome it's not one that you would expect her to excel at, and yet her version is one of the very best out there. The most interesting thing that I know about her from her book was that for her first year in music school she did not sing a note but practiced yogic breathing techniques only. Can you imagine?


Well, I think Salome is a perfect fit for her. I believe it is a lyric soprano role, despite the misconceptions that it is a dramatic one. Strauss himself wanted Elisabeth Schumann, a lyric soprano, to sing it, and Maria Cebotari as well as Ljuba Welitsch, two of the most acclaimed Salomes, were both lyrics. Caballe's timbre is similar to Cebotari's in many respects.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Shaafee Shameem said:


> Well, I think Salome is a perfect fit for her. I believe it is a lyric soprano role, despite the misconceptions that it is a dramatic one. *Strauss himself wanted Elisabeth Schumann, a lyric soprano, to sing it*, and Maria Cebotari as well as Ljuba Welitsch, two of the most acclaimed Salomes, were both lyrics. Caballe's timbre is similar to Cebotari's in many respects.


Although Salome can be sung by voices of varying weight, Elisabeth Schumann had the good sense to know that hers was not among those voices. I don't know what Strauss was thinking, but I suspect he liked the idea of such a sweet young thing making love to a severed head on a platter. Or maybe he wanted to be on that platter himself. Hard to blame him, when you hear how exquisitely she sings his songs.


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## khalid (11 mo ago)

Salome is a "16 years old Isolde" as Strauss called it. It is very taxing part with huge orchestra and a quite shifting tessitura. It is a definitive wrecker if the singer didn't have good technique. Some lyric voices can even sing Turandot, like Muzio and Caballé who both did Turandot, but it's not advised and the orchestra needs to be adjusted. Welitsch and Caballé both have a good squillo that can cut through without necessarily sing over the orchestra as dramatic voice. Also not all lyric voices are small, Tebaldi, Milanov, Caballé, Steber, and Petrella were all basically lyric, while even dramatic sopranos of these days can't hold a candle next to them.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

khalid said:


> Salome is a "16 years old Isolde" as Strauss called it. It is very taxing part with huge orchestra and a quite shifting tessitura. It is a definitive wrecker if the singer didn't have good technique. Some lyric voices can even sing Turandot, like Muzio and Caballé who both did Turandot, but it's not advised and the orchestra needs to be adjusted. Welitsch and Caballé both have a good squillo that can cut through without necessarily sing over the orchestra as dramatic voice. Also not all lyric voices are small, Tebaldi, Milanov, Caballé, Steber, and Petrella were all basically lyric, while even dramatic sopranos of these days can't hold a candle next to them.


Milanov of course could sing lyrically, but most often was referred to as a dramatic soprano. Certainly the size of her voice earned her that description which appears in Wikipedia, the LA Times and the NYTimes. Caballe was hard to classify as she sang everything!!! I do think at it's core she was a versatile lyric.


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## Shaafee Shameem (Aug 4, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> Although Salome can be sung by voices of varying weight, Elisabeth Schumann had the good sense to know that hers was not among those voices. I don't know what Strauss was thinking, but I suspect he liked the idea of such a sweet young thing making love to a severed head on a platter. Or maybe he wanted to be on that platter himself. Hard to blame him, when you hear how exquisitely she sings his songs.


Indeed, Schumann's voice was quite small for Salome, but I believe Strauss wanted a more lyrical timbre for the young girl than a dramatic one. Therefore, I feel that stronger lyrics like Caballe, Cebotari and Welitsch are more suited to the role than dramatics. Elektra, on the other hand, is a true dramatic role.


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## Shaafee Shameem (Aug 4, 2021)

khalid said:


> Salome is a "16 years old Isolde" as Strauss called it. It is very taxing part with huge orchestra and a quite shifting tessitura. It is a definitive wrecker if the singer didn't have good technique. Some lyric voices can even sing Turandot, like Muzio and Caballé who both did Turandot, but it's not advised and the orchestra needs to be adjusted. Welitsch and Caballé both have a good squillo that can cut through without necessarily sing over the orchestra as dramatic voice. Also not all lyric voices are small, Tebaldi, Milanov, Caballé, Steber, and Petrella were all basically lyric, while even dramatic sopranos of these days can't hold a candle next to them.


Roselle, Nemeth, Cebotari, Lottie Lehman, all lyrics too sang Turandot, another role I feel is more suited for lyrics with higher tessitura than dramatics. It's also interesting than both Salome and Turandot have a higher tessitura than the other dramatic roles, and I believe when it comes to the upper register, projection is of more importance than weight. A lighter soprano with higher tessitura can achieve more volume in the upper register than the heavier ones.
Yes, I agree that all operatic voices need to be sizable, which isn't the case today. Petrella definitely is indeed a very big, if not the biggest lyric. Tebaldi and Milanov are spintos, although some call Milanov a dramatic.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Shaafee Shameem said:


> Indeed, Schumann's voice was quite small for Salome, but I believe Strauss wanted a more lyrical timbre for the young girl than a dramatic one. Therefore, I feel that stronger lyrics like Caballe, Cebotari and Welitsch are more suited to the role than dramatics. Electra on the other hand, is a true dramatic role.


I doubt Schumann could ever have sung it, but I too prefer the more lyric voices. Behrens, when she recorded it for Karjajan, had a lovely, silvery quality to her voice and I prefer her to Nilsson. Indeed Nilsson never convinced me as Salome.

There's a recording of Maggie Teyte rehearsing the role with piano when she was preparing the role for Covent Garden, a project that unofortunately never came to fruition. Hers might well have been the kind of voice Strauss was thinking of; not only did she have a clear, firm top register but she had a decent chest register.


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## khalid (11 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Milanov of course could sing lyrically, but most often was referred to as a dramatic soprano. Certainly the size of her voice earned her that description which appears in Wikipedia, the LA Times and the NYTimes. Caballe was hard to classify as she sang everything!!! I do think at it's core she was a versatile lyric.


I think she best fits the relatively new category lirico-spinto which is a pushed lyric, along with Tebaldi and Stella. Even she called her voice not terribly dramatic. Her's was very sweet to be a dramatic, not as metallic and full bodied as say Cigna or Ponselle.


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I doubt Schumann could ever have sung it, but I too prefer the more lyric voices. Behrens, when she recorded it for Karjajan, had a lovely, silvery quality to her voice and I prefer her to Nilsson. *Indeed Nilsson never convinced me as Salome. *
> 
> There's a recording of Maggie Teyte rehearsing the role with piano when she was preparing the role for Covent Garden, a project that unofortunately never came to fruition. Hers might well have been the kind of voice Strauss was thinking of; not only did she have a clear, firm top register but she had a decent chest register.


For sheer voice yes! As a 16 year-old princess, not at all!


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

marlow said:


> For sheer voice yes! As a 16 year-old princess, not at all!


But there is still what I call my Nilsson problem. I don't like the sound of her voice.

In any case what soprano does sound like a 16 year old? Nor would we want them to. It's more a case of creating a credible voice character and I don't feel Nilsson does that. Welitsch, Studer, Caballé, Behrens and Stratas all in their varying ways do.


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## khalid (11 mo ago)

Shaafee Shameem said:


> Roselle, Nemeth, Cebotari, Lottie Lehman, all lyrics too sang Turandot, another role I feel is more suited for lyrics with higher tessitura than dramatics. It's also interesting than both Salome and Turandot have a higher tessitura than the other dramatic roles, and I believe when it comes to the upper register, projection is of more importance than weight. A lighter soprano with higher tessitura can achieve more volume in the upper register than the heavier ones.
> Yes, I agree that all operatic voices need to be sizable, which isn't the case today. Petrella definitely is indeed a very big, if not the biggest lyric. Tebaldi and Milanov are spintos, although some call Milanov a dramatic.


It's not a matter of tessitura only, the orchestra and the brass section in particular are huge in these works, I don't think typical lyric voices have the necessary stamina to sing clear words above them in an opera house. That's true, they're unusual roles that require unusual voices like Nilsson and Turner.

Spinto is a new category to fit the growing kind of voices that are perfect for late Verdi and Verismo. They're essentially lyric, more mature yet not fully dramatic. Tebaldi always called her voice lyric despite being much more mature after 1956. Milanov is the same case.


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## Shaafee Shameem (Aug 4, 2021)

khalid said:


> I think she best fits the relatively new category lirico-spinto which is a pushed lyric, along with Tebaldi and Stella. Even she called her voice not terribly dramatic. Her's was very sweet to be a dramatic, not as metallic and full bodied as say Cigna or Ponselle.


Stella's is a lyric voice in my opinion. Milanov's voice was quite dark, darker than both Tebaldi and Stella and somewhat metallic though it did have the smoothness and sweetness of a lyric voice. Tebaldi's on the other hand was completely lyrical in timbre and texture, yet in size and weight, it could surpass many dramatics. Spinto is just a short way of saying lirico-spinto isn't it? Anyways, who in your opinion, then, is a true spinto?


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## khalid (11 mo ago)

Shaafee Shameem said:


> Stella's is a lyric voice in my opinion. Milanov's voice was quite dark, darker than both Tebaldi and Stella and somewhat metallic though it did have the smoothness and sweetness of a lyric voice. Tebaldi's on the other hand was completely lyrical in timbre and texture, yet in size and weight, it could surpass many dramatics. Spinto is just a short way of saying lirico-spinto isn't it? Anyways, who in your opinion, then, is a true spinto?


That's true, spinto is a short for lirico-spinto (pushed lyric in italian). Recordings might give the impression that her voice was dark. If you listen to her studio recordings, Trovatore for example, she isn't that dark and not metallic at all. Tebaldi and Milanov are both true spinto, especially after 1956 for Tebaldi, she was too mature for Mimi for example. what I mean is spinto is essentially a lyric voice that has the possibility to grow to a full dramatic like Flagstad. It's a subcategory of lyric not dramatic. I wrote another reply for you that for some reason wasn't posted.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Shaafee Shameem said:


> Stella's is a lyric voice in my opinion. Milanov's voice was quite dark, darker than both Tebaldi and Stella and somewhat metallic though it did have the smoothness and sweetness of a lyric voice. Tebaldi's on the other hand was completely lyrical in timbre and texture, yet in size and weight, it could surpass many dramatics. Spinto is just a short way of saying lirico-spinto isn't it? Anyways, who in your opinion, then, is a true spinto?


Margaret Price, Kiri te Kanawa, Leontyne Price, Victoria de los Angeles, Cheryl Studer, Shirley Verrett and Grace Bumbry when they sang soprano, Alessandra Marc, Boninsegna,Spani, Angela Meade, Elizabeth Schwartzkopf ( Possibly), , early Christine Goerke, Caballe


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Margaret Price, Kiri te Kanawa, Leontyne Price, Victoria de los Angeles, Cheryl Studer, Shirley Verrett and Grace Bumbry when they sang soprano, Alessandra Marc, Boninsegna,Spani, Angela Meade, Elizabeth Schwartzkopf ( Possibly), , early Christine Goerke, Caballe


I'd call most of these lyrics rather than spintos or lirico-spintos. Certainly Margaret and Leontyne Price, De Los Angeles, Schwarzkopf, Te Kanawa and Studer.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I'd call most of these lyrics rather than spintos or lirico-spintos. Certainly Margaret and Leontyne Price, De Los Angeles, Schwarzkopf, Te Kanawa and Studer.


I'm fuzzy here. I may not be thinking of the category correctly, although I'm generally pretty good on sopranos. I thought you needed to be a spinto to sing Tosca, Ariadne, and Verdi, but I don't know everything. I think of Bess and Liu as being more of a lyric role without a lot of heavy orchestration and calling for a sweet, hopefully young sound. I think of spinto as having more vocal body and heft on the high notes.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I'm fuzzy here. I thought you needed to be a spinto to sing Tosca, Ariadne, and Verdi, but I don't know everything. I think of Bess and Liu as being more of a lyric role without a lot of heavy orchestration. I think of spinto as having more vocal body and heft on the high notes.


De Los Angeles and Schwarzkopf never sang Tosca and Schwarzkopf only sang Ariadne on disc. As for Verdi, different roles have different requirements. As far as I know the only Verdi roles De Los Angeles sang were Amelia in *Simon Boccanegra*, Desdemona and Violetta, none of them really spinto roles. Schwarzkopf sang Violetta early in her career (famously giving up the role after hearing Callas sang it), the Requiem and Alice Ford. I think Te Kanawa only sang Tosca in the studo, and even in the studio it doesn't sound like a natural Tosca voice. I don't think Margaret Price ever did. I suppose Leontyne Price might be considered more of a lirico-spinto.


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

Tsaraslondon said:


> But there is still what I call my Nilsson problem. I don't like the sound of her voice.
> 
> In any case what soprano does sound like a 16 year old? Nor would we want them to. It's more a case of creating a credible voice character and I don't feel Nilsson does that. Welitsch, Studer, Caballé, Behrens and Stratas all in their varying ways do.


Of course as you say no soprano sounds like a 16 year old singing Salome - a problem with Strauss rather than the sopranos.Possibly though she should sound at least a bit girlish which Nilsson doesn't at all. This is one reason I prefer Crespin as the Walkure Brunnhilde.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> De Los Angeles and Schwarzkopf never sang Tosca and Schwarzkopf only sang Ariadne on disc. As for Verdi, different roles have different requirements. As far as I know the only Verdi roles De Los Angeles sang were Amelia in *Simon Boccanegra*, Desdemona and Violetta, none of them really spinto roles. Schwarzkopf sang Violetta early in her career (famously giving up the role after hearing Callas sang it), the Requiem and Alice Ford. I think Te Kanawa only sang Tosca in the studo, and even in the studio it doesn't sound like a natural Tosca voice. I don't think Margaret Price ever did. I suppose Leontyne Price might be considered more of a lirico-spinto.


OK. With VDLA I was thinking of Elsa, which I don't think as a lyric role, but maybe she only sang it on lp. Schwarzkopf sang Ariadne, at least on disc, and it takes some heft in my opinion. She also sang in Sabata''s Verdi Requiem which a lyric can't adequately handle. These are just my opinions.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> OK. With VDLA I was thinking of Elsa, which I don't think as a lyric role, but maybe she only sang it on lp. Schwarzkopf sang Ariadne, at least on disc, and it takes some heft in my opinion. She also sang in Sabata''s Verdi Requiem which a lyric can't adequately handle. These are just my opinions.


I'd forgotten De Los Angeles sang Elsa. Even so, I'd still call her a lyric. As I said, Schwarzkopf only sang Ariadne on record. I agree that she did sing the Verdi Requiem very successfully, but in interview she talks about her voice being quite small and the techniques she would use to make sure that she could be heard in heavily scored music. She was an extremely intelligent singer, well aware of her own limitations, and I'm sure she'd have been very surprised to hear herself being talked of as a spinto.


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## Shaafee Shameem (Aug 4, 2021)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Margaret Price, Kiri te Kanawa, Leontyne Price, Victoria de los Angeles, Cheryl Studer, Shirley Verrett and Grace Bumbry when they sang soprano, Alessandra Marc, Boninsegna,Spani, Angela Meade, Elizabeth Schwartzkopf ( Possibly), , early Christine Goerke, Caballe


Most of these are lyrics I think, except Verett and Bumbry.


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## Shaafee Shameem (Aug 4, 2021)

khalid said:


> It's not a matter of tessitura only, the orchestra and the brass section in particular are huge in these works, I don't think typical lyric voices have the necessary stamina to sing clear words above them in an opera house. That's true, they're unusual roles that require unusual voices like Nilsson and Turner.
> 
> Spinto is a new category to fit the growing kind of voices that are perfect for late Verdi and Verismo. They're essentially lyric, more mature yet not fully dramatic. Tebaldi always called her voice lyric despite being much more mature after 1956. Milanov is the same case.


Yes, but even dramatics won't be able to achieve much volume in high tessitura due to the effort of sustaining them. In comparison, lyrical voices could achieve volume rather easily in higher tessitura. 
I don't think spinto, or any voice classification refers to growing voices. Voice classifications are for fully developed, mature voices, and spintos are voices with both lyrical and dramatic characteristics. Tebaldi calls herself a spinto in 'The Last Prima Donnas'. I don't think the voice matured after 1956 either. It gradually lost the vibrancy and beauty to an extent, but that is a natural decline that all voices endure.


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## Shaafee Shameem (Aug 4, 2021)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I'm fuzzy here. I may not be thinking of the category correctly, although I'm generally pretty good on sopranos. I thought you needed to be a spinto to sing Tosca, Ariadne, and Verdi, but I don't know everything. I think of Bess and Liu as being more of a lyric role without a lot of heavy orchestration and calling for a sweet, hopefully young sound. I think of spinto as having more vocal body and heft on the high notes.


A spinto is a voice with both lyrical and dramatic characteristics. As such, they must be able to sing both lyrical and dramatic roles to varying degrees. Tebaldi, Milanov, Lina Bruna Rasa, Caniglia, Cerquetti etc are great examples for spintos. I don't think roles are written exclusively for spintos, or for any voice types really, but certain roles fit the classifications rather well, while others don't. Tosca can be sung well by lyrics, dramatics and spintos. It isn't that heavy. Verdi roles are very wide ranging. Of them, I believe Forza Leonora and Aida would be particularly apt for spintos.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Shaafee Shameem said:


> A spinto is a voice with both lyrical and dramatic characteristics. As such, they must be able to sing both lyrical and dramatic roles to varying degrees. Tebaldi, Milanov, Lina Bruna Rasa, Caniglia, Cerquetti etc are great examples for spintos. I don't think roles are written exclusively for spintos, or for any voice types really, but certain roles fit the classifications rather well, while others don't. Tosca can be sung well by lyrics, dramatics and spintos. It isn't that heavy. Verdi roles are very wide ranging. Of them, I believe Forza Leonora and Aida would be particularly apt for spintos.


That is a clear explanation. I am self taught, you know LOL My sister is a lyric and her first professional gig was Violetta at 23. She said it worked in a small regional theater, but her voice would have been lost in a big American opera house in sections of that role.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> That is a clear explanation. I am self taught, you know LOL My sister is a lyric and her first professional gig was Violetta at 23. She said it worked in a small regional theater, but her voice would have been lost in a big American opera house in sections of that role.


It always used to be said of Violetta that it needed three different voices; a coloratura in Act I, a lyric in Act II and a dramatic in Act III. A soprano who was good in one of the acts was usually less successful in one of the others. One of the reasons Callas had such a big success in the role was that she had the coloratura for Act I as well as the power down below that a Violetta should ideally have in Act III.


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## khalid (11 mo ago)

Shaafee Shameem said:


> Yes, but even dramatics won't be able to achieve much volume in high tessitura due to the effort of sustaining them. In comparison, lyrical voices could achieve volume rather easily in higher tessitura.
> I don't think spinto, or any voice classification refers to growing voices. Voice classifications are for fully developed, mature voices, and spintos are voices with both lyrical and dramatic characteristics. Tebaldi calls herself a spinto in 'The Last Prima Donnas'. I don't think the voice matured after 1956 either. It gradually lost the vibrancy and beauty to an extent, but that is a natural decline that all voices endure.


I don't think dramatic sopranos can't sustain a high tessitura, Many did easily like Nilsson, Leider, Varnay, even early Flagstad. Most of them even had coloratura roles in their repertoire to keep the voice flexible. Brünnhilde in Siegfried, Die Kaiserin, Die Färberin and to a certain extent Isolde and Elektra they all fall in the German fach Hochdramatischer Sopran (high dramatic soprano).

I mean the spinto category was growing more defined from late Verdi to Puccini as these roles don't necessarily need a steely dramatic, nor a usual lyric. Germans call it Jugendlich dramatischer (young dramatic) as these voices can mature sometimes to a true dramatic like Flagstad who started as spinto singing lyric roles gradually moving to heavier. She might've called her voice spinto after her retirement but when she was active, she insisted her voice was lyric, and she was terrified of any heavier role like Aida, even Butterfly, she sang it on stage quite late. Her voice didn't lose luster, it was maturing nicely until she tried to push it more to venture into dramatic roles in 1959 and the whole thing was ruined.


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## Shaafee Shameem (Aug 4, 2021)

Tsaraslondon said:


> It always used to be said of Violetta that it needed three different voices; a coloratura in Act I, a lyric in Act II and a dramatic in Act III. A soprano who was good in one of the acts was usually less successful in one of the others. One of the reasons Callas had such a big success in the role was that she had the coloratura for Act I as well as the power down below that a Violetta should ideally have in Act III.


I've always wondered, why it was lyric for act 2 and dramatic for act 3, when "Amami Alfredo", which is the part that requires the most weight and volume is in act 2.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Shaafee Shameem said:


> I've always wondered, why it was lyric for act 2 and dramatic for act 3, when "Amami Alfredo", which is the part that requires the most weight and volume is in act 2.


Be that as it may, I don't see why a dramatic soprano voice is required for that passage. "_Amami Alfredo_" is marked _*ff*_, but there is no heavy orchestration - there's a _crescendo_ just before first "_amami_," but then Verdi holds back the orchestra to just a few instruments that play punctuating chords under the vocal line. Even the climatic "aMAAAA" is scored lightly (not sure there's even a *f* here) for the underlying strings and brass (?) while the soprano sustains the high note.


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## Shaafee Shameem (Aug 4, 2021)

MAS said:


> Be that as it may, I don't see why a dramatic soprano voice is required for that passage. "_Amami Alfredo_" is marked _*ff*_, but there is no heavy orchestration - there's a _crescendo_ just before first "_amami_," but then Verdi holds back the orchestra to just a few instruments that play punctuating chords under the vocal line. Even the climatic "aMAAAA" is scored lightly (not sure there's even a *f* here) for the underlying strings and brass (?) while the soprano sustains the high note.


Yes, I myself don't think that a dramatic soprano is necessary for that passage, but that passage is still more dramatic than any in act 3, isn't it? Hence, I wondered why act 3 was said to need a dramatic, when the most dramatic moment is in act 2.


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