# the social value of education



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

The first few paragraphs of this article - Rethinking School, from the Harvard Business Review http://hbr.org/2012/03/rethinking-school/ar/1 - have changed my political priorities forever. Education is now much higher on them than it has been.

Thought I'd share. Really eye-opening, for me at least.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

Dismal is right. And I can't foresee any real-life solution. The whole sense of so many things has simply,...disappeared. Of true caring for others. Of true respect to elders and strangers. Of kindness to all. And yeah,...of even wanting to really learn something because it is fun to know stuff and not just have to ****ing access any time you want with your smartphone. 

Smartphone. Heck of a name when what it truly does is make one dumb.


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## Chrythes (Oct 13, 2011)

Science, If I'm not mistaken you are a teacher in Seoul?
Were you teaching in the US or elsewhere in the world before? If you did, how would you compare the education in these different countries? 
According to this article the main problem seems to be that students don't get enough individual care from their teachers, thus we need to adopt all the available technology in order to create such personalized school-programs for each student. 

And I believe it's great, but can it be just a mere improvement instead of a true solution to a problem that seems to be rooted in the culture rather than in the system? According to the article US students rank below many countries in their academic achievements, but I doubt the other countries rank higher only because of successful technology incorporation into their education system. I just think that this solution might be short-lived.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Chrythes, I've never taught in the US but I went to school there, and I see two major differences, and a myriad of minor differences. 

The major differences are, first, that Korean culture values education, and especially elite levels of education, about fifty thousand times as much as ordinary Americans do; and second, Korean culture puts much less emphasis on understanding than American educators would, and almost no value on creativity or originality. So there's a strength and arguably a weakness there. 

Long term, a revolution in American thinking is inevitable. There'll be something like a "Sputnik moment" when the US realizes that we really are falling behind, it's not just math tests or something but real life and real technology, and as a society we'll begin to take it seriously. I'm not sure we can keep the kind of global leadership that we've enjoyed, but education will get better in the US when the crisis happens.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

America has abandoned a very important principal. It's called the common good. From the time of birth, American kids are bombarded with messages stressing the importance of style over substance, and monetary over intrinsic value. I've noticed a big drop in the work ethic among the younger people I come in contact with.

Over the past 30 years I've witnessed the erosion of somewhat of a democratic society to the 1% vs the 99%, and the 1% has won the battle. As the American middle class continues to descend into the ranks of poverty, things will only get worse.

I'm not very impressed with the younger professional class of doctors, dentists, veterinarians, lawyers, etc... From my experience they are incompetent and greedy, charging outrageous fees for lousy care. What are they teaching in business schools these days? Is it just to make as much money as you can at the public's expense?

The structure and attitudes of this current society are sending the wrong messages to children. And don't even get me started on the political "leadership". It's a travesty.


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

starthrower said:


> America has abandoned a very important principal. It's called the common good. From the time of birth, American kids are bombarded with messages stressing the importance of style over substance, and monetary over intrinsic value. I've noticed a big drop in the work ethic among the younger people I come in contact with.
> 
> Over the past 30 years I've witnessed the erosion of somewhat of a democratic society to the 1% vs the 99%, and the 1% has won the battle. As the American middle class continues to descend into the ranks of poverty, things will only get worse.
> 
> ...


"American kids are bombarded with messages stressing the importance of style over substance..."

This I can agree with, but I'm not sure I follow your conclusions.

Notice how every generation thinks the new generation doesn't have enough work ethic?


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

starthrower said:


> America has abandoned a very important principal. It's called the common good. From the time of birth, American kids are bombarded with messages stressing the importance of style over substance, and monetary over intrinsic value. I've noticed a big drop in the work ethic among the younger people I come in contact with.
> 
> Over the past 30 years I've witnessed the erosion of somewhat of a democratic society to the 1% vs the 99%, and the 1% has won the battle. As the American middle class continues to descend into the ranks of poverty, things will only get worse.
> 
> ...


I absolutely agree.

The one good thing is, all things flow.

Consumerism is breaking down as we speak. People across America have realized that they cannot just live in debt. My generation and the one following me will struggle mightily to pay the debts created by our parents, and it is likely to lead to the rejuvenation (pun intended!) of the savings ethic. (The work ethic is important and people rightly lament its decline, but the savings ethic is important too, and not enough people think of it.)

As for the common good, I really believe things can only get so bad before we hit a crisis point. Perhaps it's when they take the pensions away. Perhaps it's when we realize that we really do need public schools. Perhaps it's when a series of bridges collapse. Perhaps it's when gas hits $15/gallon and only 1% of the people can afford to drive cars. But if things keep going as they have, we must eventually reach the point where either the .1% has to end democracy in order to keep their privileged access to wealth and power, or the 99.9% will begin to take things back. My question is, who will win at that point?

It's an open question, and it's being slowly answered every day, and not only in the US, but in Syria, in Russia, in China, in Egypt, in Iran, in the Palestinian territories, in Saudi Arabia...

I suppose it's possible that the top .1% will realize that they can't let things reach that crisis point. That really would be the best thing for everyone. We need more Roosevelts.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

regressivetransphobe said:


> "American kids are bombarded with messages stressing the importance of style over substance..."
> 
> This I can agree with, but I'm not sure I follow your conclusions.
> 
> Notice how every generation thinks the new generation doesn't have enough work ethic?


All I know is that the young dentist I went to see did horrible work on my teeth, and I had to go to an old guy to fix it.

The young veterinarian I took my sick cat to charged me a lot of money for tests and then could not even make a diagnosis. The old guard that was still in these professions in the 1980s charged much less even with adjusting for inflation, and was more competent in my opinion.


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2012)

starthrower said:


> All I know is that the young dentist I went to see did horrible work on my teeth, and I had to go to an old guy to fix it.
> 
> The young veterinarian I took my sick cat to charged me a lot of money for tests and then could not even make a diagnosis. The old guard that was still in these professions in the 1980s charged much less even with adjusting for inflation, and was more competent in my opinion.


Well, the old vet and old dentist have a significantly greater amount of experience. Education does not end with the diploma, and I don't find it unfathomable at all that the individual with the greater experience has the greater expertise. Furthermore, I suspect also that the young vet and the young dentist have significantly higher levels of debt to pay back as a result of their education than the older ones in their profession did. As the cost to gain a degree increases, the compensation for those who have achieved it will have to ask more. Especially if some of this old guard was able to procure their degrees from programs like the GI Bill. There are any number of ways to explain the disparity in ability and cost between older generation professionals and younger generation professionals. What would be more appropriate would be to compare them at similar points in their careers. Was the old guy more capable than the young guy when he was his age?


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

science said:


> We need more Roosevelts.


This is the thing! There is no leadership to step up to the plate and deal with the current crises. The needs of the public have been abandoned. What kind of a country stands by and allows millions of people to be defrauded and kicked out of their homes by crooked bankers and insurance companies who receive billions in payoffs with impunity for their illegal activities?


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

DrMike said:


> Well, the old vet and old dentist have a significantly greater amount of experience. Education does not end with the diploma, and I don't find it unfathomable at all that the individual with the greater experience has the greater expertise. Furthermore, I suspect also that the young vet and the young dentist have significantly higher levels of debt to pay back as a result of their education than the older ones in their profession did. As the cost to gain a degree increases, the compensation for those who have achieved it will have to ask more. Especially if some of this old guard was able to procure their degrees from programs like the GI Bill. There are any number of ways to explain the disparity in ability and cost between older generation professionals and younger generation professionals. What would be more appropriate would be to compare them at similar points in their careers. Was the old guy more capable than the young guy when he was his age?


When I said younger, I did not mean just out of college. These doctors were in their 30s and early 40s. Old enough to know better. The 30 something veterinarian told me my cat did not have an infection, then proceeded to try to sell me antibiotics at a ridiculous mark up. WTF? No thanks!

Another comparison I'd like to point out among these two dentists I had experience with. Old guy had a very modest office with just a few assistants. Young female dentist had a brand new large office with numerous assistants, hygienists, televisions in every examining room and a large screen TV in the waiting room. So the higher charges are due to unnecessary overhead as opposed to outstanding student loans. In short, the young female dentist is a yuppie.


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## Philip (Mar 22, 2011)

science said:


> The major differences are, first, that Korean culture values education, and especially elite levels of education, about fifty thousand times as much as ordinary Americans do;


If a country really valued education, wouldn't it be free (like in Norway or Finland)?

To me, the high cost of tuition says more about a country's affinity to capitalism than anything else.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Philip said:


> If a country really valued education, wouldn't it be free (like in Norway or Finland)?
> 
> To me, the high cost of tuition says more about a country's affinity to capitalism than anything else.


I wasn't thinking of the cost when I wrote "value." I meant it in the moral sense.

But as for the cost, a few years ago a lot of average Korean families were spending half their income on private education. That fell as the economy slumped, but it shows you what the priorities are. These are people that could have been buying flat panel TVs or nicer clothes or cars or whatever - Korean society values all that stuff too, values luxury goods at least as much as Americans - but they spent their money that way. So they're raising a generation of trilingual kids who take for granted two years of calculus in high school.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

As a college student fairly fresh out of high school, I can say that I definitely felt like standards were very low compared to the intelligence level highschoolers should be at. We had questions that were labeled as "critical thinking" questions that looked something like this: "How does racism lead to discrimination?" When I saw that question I probably crossed out the words critical thinking and put the words common sense instead. The sad thing is I honestly couldn't tell if it was a result of horrible underestimation on the teachers part or if the students really were at the intelligence level where they would consider a question like that critical thinking. I struggled to answer the question without sounding like a 1st grader. 

As to the work ethic of my generation issue, well I can only speak from personal experience. Sometimes I feel so bombarded with negative messages about the future that I feel motivated to do little else but entertain myself the best I can until I die a horrible death at the hands of global warming or high medical costs.


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2012)

Philip said:


> If a country really valued education, wouldn't it be free (like in Norway or Finland)?
> 
> To me, the high cost of tuition says more about a country's affinity to capitalism than anything else.


Ummm, generally we attach costs to things that are valued. Besides, if we make education entirely free, where do we get the money to pay the educators? In many countries, K-12 education (or the equivalent) which is discussed in this study IS free. For higher education, you need individuals to teach that have significantly more education, and they cost more. There is no such thing as free - all you mean by that is increasing taxes on everybody so that people can go to college with no responsibility.


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2012)

starthrower said:


> When I said younger, I did not mean just out of college. These doctors were in their 30s and early 40s. Old enough to know better. The 30 something veterinarian told me my cat did not have an infection, then proceeded to try to sell me antibiotics at a ridiculous mark up. WTF? No thanks!
> 
> Another comparison I'd like to point out among these two dentists I had experience with. Old guy had a very modest office with just a few assistants. Young female dentist had a brand new large office with numerous assistants, hygienists, televisions in every examining room and a large screen TV in the waiting room. So the higher charges are due to unnecessary overhead as opposed to outstanding student loans. In short, the young female dentist is a yuppie.


Given the length of time it takes to obtain an advanced degree to become a dentist or a veterinarian, I was assuming that these younger guys WERE in their 30's. That might be right out of college for them.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

I educated children for ten years. It's sad all of the things I saw that they didn't know when I clearly remembered being at their age and knowing far more. And I ain't old! If anything, I'm right at that last spot in the generation that actually gave a damn. I didn't grow up with a Nintendo in my hand, rather, I played outside with marbles and tops and balls and my own imagination. That was pretty much the end of it, though. Even my nephew and niece, who I helped raise, are in a completely different place in their heads. This all just gets me depressed. My best friend's wife is a teacher and the horror stories are unimaginable and most of it come from the so-called, parents. It's sad and disturbing and makes me feel like Tom Hulce does when Stanzi and Leopold are fighting non-stop and he just goes back to writing Figaro. That's why I like playing live because at least for those four hours there is nothing wrong with the world.


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## Philip (Mar 22, 2011)

science said:


> I wasn't thinking of the cost when I wrote "value." I meant it in the moral sense.
> 
> But as for the cost, a few years ago a lot of average Korean families were spending half their income on private education. That fell as the economy slumped, but it shows you what the priorities are. These are people that could have been buying flat panel TVs or nicer clothes or cars or whatever - Korean society values all that stuff too, values luxury goods at least as much as Americans - but they spent their money that way. So they're raising a generation of trilingual kids who take for granted two years of calculus in high school.


Oh, i must've misread you when you said "about fifty thousand times as much", as in "50,000 reasons".

However, i'm not sure i agree. Spending money on an individual (or family's) basis is not indicative of anything, quite frankly; It only shows that parents want their kids to achieve the same or higher rank in society, which is reasonable, but downright puts a monetary value on education.

If a society valued education as a whole, tuition costs would be proportionally absorbed by everyone, depending on their income, thus making learning available to everyone who wishes to pursue a higher level of education.


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## Philip (Mar 22, 2011)

DrMike said:


> Ummm, generally we attach costs to things that are valued. Besides, if we make education entirely free, where do we get the money to pay the educators? In many countries, K-12 education (or the equivalent) which is discussed in this study IS free. For higher education, you need individuals to teach that have significantly more education, and they cost more. There is no such thing as free - all you mean by that is increasing taxes on everybody so that people can go to college with no responsibility.


What's your point...?


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

I'm not clued in on the economic arguments, but I think education ought to be the top priority for any society, as it affects everything. The politics of today is the fruit of yesterday's education system, and the politics of tomorrow is the fruit of today's.

Unfortunately, at least in the UK, education is dire. There is no adequate teaching on critical thinking, life skills, and citizenship - just learning facts and figures by rote in order to meet government guidelines. Even in science classes, you're not introduced to the scientific method, only results; in maths, you don't get told what maths is good for; in English, you're no inspired to read, only forced to in order to get good grades. It's embarrassing and worrying.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Polednice said:


> Unfortunately, at least in the UK, education is dire. There is no adequate teaching on critical thinking, life skills, and citizenship - just learning facts and figures by rote in order to meet government guidelines. Even in science classes, you're not introduced to the scientific method, only results; in maths, you don't get told what maths is good for; in English, you're no inspired to read, only forced to in order to get good grades. It's embarrassing and worrying.


Good point. It was somewhat like that where I grew up too. I especially wasn't inspired to read that much (which might be why I don't read much today). The problem with my school is that for some incredibly ridiculous reason that I have yet to figure out, non-fiction books didn't "count" for your reading minutes and as a kid I was much more interested in reading about history and dinosaurs than I was in reading about wizards and teenagers with too much melodrama in their life. To this day if I am going to read a book it is probably going to be non-fiction.


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## ksargent (Feb 8, 2012)

I've worked in higher education for nearly 30 years (mostly in non-teaching positions, but I have taught a bit). My own K-12 schooling was in the 50's and 60's - and no, I'm not going to say it was a great deal better then; people were just as stupid in my day as they are now, probably more so. But a few years ago, my daughter, who was a senior in high school, dropped out a few months before graduation. She has pretty much stopped going to class. The funny thing is - when I talked to her about it, she basically told me that her classes were ridiculous and why should she waste her time when she could easily pass her GED exam the minute she turned 18 (which she did). I confess that I didn't have a quick answer; in fact, when discussing with a friend my age, he said, "Ken, I would hate to be a parent and be faced with the challenge of defending high school." This was five years ago. Since then she has been successful at a community college and will continue her education at a four year art school. In short, she hasn't really suffered for her decision. The sad thing is - her middle school had an experimental curriculum and she thrived there. But high school was a real let-down and she, being naturally lazy, allowed it to get the best of her. I don't defend her lassitude - I think that one has to have a measure of discipline and do some things one doesn't want to do in life - but I understand it somewhat. And I'm not sure what the answer is, as I don't think she is especially unique.


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## ksargent (Feb 8, 2012)

Polednice said:


> Unfortunately, at least in the UK, education is dire. There is no adequate teaching on critical thinking, life skills, and citizenship - just learning facts and figures by rote in order to meet government guidelines. Even in science classes, you're not introduced to the scientific method, only results; in maths, you don't get told what maths is good for; in English, you're no inspired to read, only forced to in order to get good grades. It's embarrassing and worrying.


that is the situation in the U.S. as well. And you're right - it IS embarrassing and worrying.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Scientific methodology and technology are not the answer(s); that suggested approach is simplistic and antithetical to the fix needed. That mechanic approach, on a low-imagination plane, was what led to 'testing' (multiple choice for the most part) in the American school system - back to mid-19th century rote learning.

Good thinking and performance require an ability to extrude information: that 'technological' approach does little or nothing in training individuals How To Learn To Think, that last the real problem.

In the 1980's and again in the 1990's the national average test score in the verbal part of the SAT tests dropped -- 100 points each decade. With a lesser vocabulary comes a lesser ability / or inability -- to form a thought, grasp a concept, let alone express any of that to others. It keeps people, literally and figuratively, dumb.

What has been proven is that the brightest of people with the same IQ, ergo potential, perceive things and think differently. This is called 'individuated thinking.' To effectively teach any one person, or especially a group in a classroom, the teacher must be able to explain things using different analogies, and be canny enough to realize that Pupils A, B, and C may reach an understanding and grasp the working principles of any particular subject from three very different approaches.

This takes more thought, effort, and time than is currently asked for, or demanded, or provided for within the U.S. schooling system. Ergo the sliced, plastic-wrapped processed cheese approach in America's public schools.

Those lowered SAT scores from the 1980's and 90's means also _a nationally lowered grade curve!_. This is like a kind of inflation. That BA earned in 1975, with its accompanying 4.0 average - is, if earned now with the same grade point, worth far less. This devaluation / inflation has already 'happened,' including a lowered standard of what it takes to get into state colleges and universities as well as top Ivy League schools as an academic major.

Arts conservatories, especially in music, have suffered little or no erosion in this way since they are essentially trade schools: the expectation of an acceptable level of craft has, if anything, been raised -- not lowered, since the 1970's.

I think the States is about 17th from the top in that international statistic of scholastic performance. I would bet if that ranking was solely based upon written and verbal language skills -- the fundamental training ground for any further elaborate or abstract thinking -- the ranking for the U.S. would be that much lower than it already is.

"Individuation," and using it as the best approach in both teaching, tutoring, and for the designing and grading of tests, none of that is in any way about 'improved technology.'

The fact America's collective ethos is one of a reflexive distrust of intellectuals and anything that even hints of intellectuality and that instead Americans most esteem the 'folksy-acting' successful entrepreneur only exacerbates the downward spiral.

ADD: There is something 'completely' new with some of the younger generation: it seems a number of them do expect to get paid for faulty work, or for simply showing up and not having an answer or a suggested or supplied solution regarding the problem they were hired to solve in the first place.

Some are now billing, fully, for merely 'showing up.' In the 1990's a directive went around through the AAA - reminding lawyers if they were on a plane flying to city X and being paid to work on a job there, that opening another client's folio during that flight and looking at it for 10 minutes and then billing that client for the number of hours the lawyer was on the plane -- was Not Ethical, LOL. That mentality has become endemic. END ADD.


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## ksargent (Feb 8, 2012)

Exactly right. The sense of the common good in the U.S. went out of fashion with Reagan - and may he rot in hell eternally for the damage he has done.



starthrower said:


> America has abandoned a very important principal. It's called the common good. From the time of birth, American kids are bombarded with messages stressing the importance of style over substance, and monetary over intrinsic value. I've noticed a big drop in the work ethic among the younger people I come in contact with.
> 
> Over the past 30 years I've witnessed the erosion of somewhat of a democratic society to the 1% vs the 99%, and the 1% has won the battle. As the American middle class continues to descend into the ranks of poverty, things will only get worse.
> 
> ...


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## ksargent (Feb 8, 2012)

PetrB said:


> The fact that America's ethos is to reflexively distrust an intellectual - and anything that even hints of intellectuality - and instead most esteems the 'folksy-acting' successful entrepreneur only exacerbates the downward spiral.


Quite true - anti-intellectualism is a way of life in America. One need only watch the conservative candidates for the presidency mock higher education and science. Talk about embarrassing - the country that once landed men not the moon is now too stupid to believe in evolution or global warming. Personally, my advice to a younger person would be to get the hell out and find a country where the dunces are not in control.


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2012)

ksargent said:


> Quite true - anti-intellectualism is a way of life in America. One need only watch the conservative candidates for the presidency mock higher education and science. Talk about embarrassing - the country that once landed men not the moon is now too stupid to believe in evolution or global warming. Personally, my advice to a younger person would be to get the hell out and find a country where the dunces were not in control.


And, pray tell, where would you suggest?


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

PetrB said:


> I strongly agree:
> Scientific methodology and technology are not the answer(s); that suggested approach is simplistic and antithetical to the fix needed. That mechanic approach, on a low-imagination plane, was what led to 'testing' (multiple choice for the most part) in the American school system - back to mid-19th century rote learning.
> 
> Good thinking and performance require an ability to extrude information: that 'technological' approach does little or nothing in training individuals How To Learn To Think, that last the real problem.


I agreed with most of your post, but the above is just hyperbolic. Incorporating technology in the classroom won't fix our problems, but it certainly isn't _antihetical_ to the solution. We do need a culture rather than a system change, but technology will probably help facilitate that.


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## ksargent (Feb 8, 2012)

DrMike said:


> And, pray tell, where would you suggest?


LOL - is it your assertion that there are no countries where the dunces are NOT in control? Probably correct, but the Scandinavian countries and even Canada seem to be bit less idiotic than the U.S.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Polednice said:


> I agreed with most of your post, but the above is just hyperbolic. Incorporating technology in the classroom won't fix our problems, but it certainly isn't _antihetical_ to the solution. We do need a culture rather than a system change, but technology will probably help facilitate that.


Maybe, but I think it is a waste of money in a recession to buy high tech things while things more central to actual education are missing.


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2012)

ksargent said:


> LOL - is it your assertion that there are no countries where the dunces are NOT in control? Probably correct, but the Scandinavian countries and even Canada seem to be bit less idiotic than the U.S.


Just curious where you thought would be a better place to live.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

violadude said:


> Maybe, but I think it is a waste of money in a recession to buy high tech things while things more central to actual education are missing.


I don't think investment has to be huge, even with getting going. I mean, I've heard about teachers putting blogs and YouTube to extremely efficient use in the classroom and as a homework resource - these cost only time. We don't need to shower schools in fancy gadgets, we just need teachers to be more aware and capable with current technologies so that they can maximise the learning capacities that students have with hardware _they already own_. Few classrooms acknowledge the potential of a child with internet access beyond Wikipedia. There are some truly wonderful educational resources online that people ought to know about.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

The schools need to get back to teaching civics and history. What the business world wants is obedient robots who are just smart enough to do the paperwork, operate the machines, but don't ask any questions about how society is structured, or how the system is rigged to protect the rich man and his investments.

Why does the economy suck so bad? Why don't we learn anything about our government from the news media? Why haven't we seen anything on TV about the two wars we've been waging for 10 years? Why do the bodies get flown back home in the middle of the night? To what degree is my personal liberty under attack when I live in a country that is perpetually at war?

Why is every store in every mall in the country part of a national chain? Why do corporations have human rights? Why are they allowed to lie and false advertise in the name of free speech? How did this happen? Was it always this way? Do we live in a democracy if the 1% possesses most of the wealth, buys the political leadership, and the 99% have no representation? I know this is asking a lot from a nation of young people who can't think hard enough to make change of a dollar.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

starthrower said:


> The schools need to get back to teaching civics and history. What the business world wants is obedient robots who are just smart enough to do the paperwork, operate the machines, but don't ask any questions about how society is structured, or how the system is rigged to protect the rich man and his investments.
> 
> Why does the economy suck so bad? Why don't we learn anything about our government from the news media? Why haven't we seen anything on TV about the two wars we've been waging for 10 years? Why do the bodies get flown back home in the middle of the night? To what degree is my personal liberty under attack when I live in a country that is perpetually at war?
> 
> Why is every store in every mall in the country part of a national chain? Why do corporations have human rights? Why are they allowed to lie and false advertise in the name of free speech? How did this happen? Was it always this way? Do we live in a democracy if the 1% possesses most of the wealth, buys the political leadership, and the 99% have no representation? I know this is asking a lot from a nation of young people who can't think hard enough to make change of a dollar.


When the services start getting cut, and the taxes start going up, I bet you'll see some real impressive thought on such issues from people born 1975 and later.


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## samurai (Apr 22, 2011)

It's also called the common good--or, in another era--"shared sacrifice"--such as everybody facing the military draft and not just leaving the country's defense to a Volunteer Army largely comprised of working class Americans, while the rich continue to make obscene profits at the expense of everyone else. How many tours in Iraq and Afghanistan have their sons and daughters done?


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

The guy that snapped and murdered sixteen Afghan civilians had already done several tours in Iraq. America shouldn't even be in Iraq. It's an illegal war, but that's another story. It's obvious to see from the way war is being waged today that Washington learned their lessons from Vietnam. This time around there is no draft or television coverage to fuel a national opposition to these wars.


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