# Siegfried's Funeral Music question



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

On this clip of Solti, at 4:49 the first violins are standing. Is this typical, or did he just do that for the recording?


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

It was because Solti wanted more violin sound and if they stood, they would be a couple of feet closer to the microphones and give the sound they wanted. Low-tech solutions are sometimes the best.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Thanks. And Solti sure got a workout in this video.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Isn't that a great clip?! Totally blew my mind when I saw it a few days ago. The strings sound great, but the horn section was most impressive to me. Those Wagner tubas. I wish more composers beyond Wagner (and to an extent, Bruckner) wrote for that instrument. 

This clip makes me want to watch the whole Ring cycle. But as Verdi (or some other famous Italian) once said, Wagner is famous for glorious moments and tedious quarters of an hour


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## apricissimus (May 15, 2013)

I like Wagner's quarters of an hour too . . . but do there have to be so many of them?


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

flamencosketches said:


> This clip makes me want to watch the whole Ring cycle. But as Verdi (or some other famous Italian) once said, Wagner is famous for glorious moments and tedious quarters of an hour


I wasn't a fervent Wagnerite until my late 20's. I knew those "glorious moments" and grew up listening to those bleeding chunks that are so popular. But then something started to click and I can listen to the operas with glee. Yes, they're long (maybe too long at times), but I never regret the time spent. The Ring is one of the very greatest artistic achievements of Western culture. You should at least listen - or better, see it live - once. Total immersion, that's the way to go. Very heady and addictive stuff.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

My time is gonna come with Wagner I'm sure. As my previous post alluded to, there are moments where his music really leaves me awestruck. He was nothing short of a genius and one of the greats. But as it stands, there is too much other music out there for me to allow Wagner to take up so much of my time. In any case, I don't have 4 hours in any given day to listen to an opera of his. 

One day, hopefully, I will see at least one of the Ring operas live. But I've got time. I have never been to an opera.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

flamencosketches said:


> My time is gonna come with Wagner I'm sure. As my previous post alluded to, there are moments where his music really leaves me awestruck. He was nothing short of a genius and one of the greats. But as it stands, there is too much other music out there for me to allow Wagner to take up so much of my time. In any case, I don't have 4 hours in any given day to listen to an opera of his.
> 
> One day, hopefully, I will see at least one of the Ring operas live. But I've got time. I have never been to an opera.


Oh dear, we've got an opera virgin. :lol:


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Then take Wagner's operas an act at a time, except for Rheingold. That's how I listen to Tristan, Meistersinger and Parsifal - an act a day.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

flamencosketches said:


> Isn't that a great clip?! Totally blew my mind when I saw it a few days ago. The strings sound great, but the horn section was most impressive to me. Those Wagner tubas. I wish more composers beyond Wagner (and to an extent, Bruckner) wrote for that instrument.
> 
> This clip makes me want to watch the whole Ring cycle. But as Verdi (or some other famous Italian) once said, Wagner is famous for glorious moments and tedious quarters of an hour


? You do accept that the sound quality is poor, surely?

Never seen a conductor so animated.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

You can see how he got the nickname The Screaming Skull, he was much hated by London orchestra members. In my experience of him in concert he was loud and thrilling. I recall an extraordinary Frau Ohne Schatten , , , , The studio recording with Domingo, which came much later, somehow never captured the power of the first Covent Garden runs, unfortunately. 

When he recorded The Ring, the first session was, not surprisingly, the overture to Rheingold, and it just kept failing, take after take. So he ordered a few cases of champagne, got the orchestra a bit drunk, and then played it through again, and that’s what’s on the recording. They were all slightly pissed.

He’s totally in his element in Siegfried’s funeral march, it’s his sort of music.


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2019)

Mandryka said:


> When he recorded The Ring, the first session was, not surprisingly, the overture to Rheingold, and it just kept failing, take after take. So he ordered a few cases of champagne, got the orchestra a bit drunk, and then played it through again, and that's what's on the recording. They were all slightly pissed.


I thought that story was for the close of Das Rheingold. If anyone, it would have been Culshaw who organized the party, he was running the show. We must look it up in Culshaw's book, "The Ring Resounding."


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

He looks as if he's going to turn into Count Dracula and go for someone's jugular.

Oh those Hungarians. (I'm half Hungarian. )


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Baron Scarpia said:


> I thought that story was for the close of Das Rheingold. If anyone, it would have been Culshaw who organized the party, he was running the show. We must look it up in Culshaw's book, "The Ring Resounding."


Cushaw, that's right. I always thought it was the overture!


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

janxharris said:


> ? You do accept that the sound quality is poor, surely?
> 
> Never seen a conductor so animated.


It's not pristine SACD sound of course... it's an old video clip. Doesn't bother me at all, it's all about the performance.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Mandryka said:


> You can see how he got the nickname The Screaming Skull, he was much hated by London orchestra members. In my experience of him in concert he was loud and thrilling. I recall an extraordinary Frau Ohne Schatten , , , , The studio recording with Domingo, which came much later, somehow never captured the power of the first Covent Garden runs, unfortunately.
> 
> When he recorded The Ring, the first session was, not surprisingly, the overture to Rheingold, and it just kept failing, take after take. _So he ordered a few cases of champagne_, got the orchestra a bit drunk, and then played it through again, and that's what's on the recording. They were all slightly pissed.
> 
> He's totally in his element in Siegfried's funeral march, it's his sort of music.


I wonder if he claimed that on expenses.


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2019)

Mandryka said:


> Cushaw, that's right. I always thought it was the overture!


The overture is subtle, the close is a blat-fest. I would think booze would facilitate the latter. Other than that, I'm relying on my unreliable memory.

If I remember correctly, the story is they wrapped the opera, including the finale. Then there was a big party for the orchestra, with lots of booze. And Culshaw says, "the one we recorded this afternoon was fine, but wadya say boys, shall we give them a finale to remember? Turn those microphones back on!" The rest is history. 

Just my unreliable memory, of course.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

flamencosketches said:


> Isn't that a great clip?! Totally blew my mind when I saw it a few days ago. The strings sound great, but the horn section was most impressive to me. Those Wagner tubas. I wish more composers beyond Wagner (and to an extent, Bruckner) wrote for that instrument.


One of the things I love about the Solti/VPO Ring Cycle is the use of all of the extra instruments which Wagner specified in the score - they add so much color and effect - the Wagner Tubas, the bass trumpet, the contrabass trombone....all are used to great effect in various passages of te music...


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Heck148 said:


> One of the things I love about the Solti/VPO Ring Cycle is the use of all of the extra instruments which Wagner specified in the score - they add so much color and effect - the Wagner Tubas, the bass trumpet, the contrabass trombone....all are used to great effect in various passages of te music...


I didn't know they were optional, are there recordings out there that don't use these instruments? They do add a lot IMO.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

flamencosketches said:


> I didn't know they were optional, are there recordings out there that don't use these instruments? They do add a lot IMO.


I don't think any of the instruments mentioned are optional, although it wouldn't surprise me if some performances have had to make do with substitutions when players of those instruments haven't been available. The only "extra instruments" I'm aware of in the Solti _Ring_ are the barbaric-sounding alphorns (steerhorns) with which Hagen summons the vassals in _Gotterdammerung_; they're thrilling, and Wagner does ask for them, but most theaters don't have access to them and use trombones. According to Wiki, "The Solti recording...had a steerhorn [three of them, I believe] specially made, as American soldiers carried off Bayreuth's steerhorns after the end of World War II."


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> . American soldiers carried off Bayreuth's steerhorns after the end of World War II."


I can understand carrying off Hitler's private reserve from the wine cellar, but this? Outrageous!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Manxfeeder said:


> I can understand carrying off Hitler's private reserve from the wine cellar, but this? Outrageous!


Really. What the heck do you do with an alphorn in Peoria?


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## samm (Jul 4, 2011)

flamencosketches said:


> Those Wagner tubas. I wish more composers beyond Wagner (and to an extent, Bruckner) wrote for that instrument.


Holst employed Wagner Tuben in _The Planets_, but they are almost always replaced by a euphonium.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

flamencosketches said:


> I didn't know they were optional, are there recordings out there that don't use these instruments? They do add a lot IMO.


a lot of smaller orchestras don't have Wagner tubas, or contrabass trombone...maybe not even bass trumpets....also, Wagner tubas are notoriously tricky to play, and often the extra horn players called in are not used to playing on them...if you're listening for mistakes on recordings, the long, exposed Wagner tuba section soli in Bruckner symphonies is a good place to start!! :devil:


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> I don't think any of the instruments mentioned are optional, although it wouldn't surprise me if some performances have had to make do with substitutions when players of those instruments haven't been available. The only "extra instruments" I'm aware of in the Solti _Ring_ are the barbaric-sounding alphorns (steerhorns) with which Hagen summons the vassals in _Gotterdammerung_;


the contrabass trombone is rare as well...it really adds some kick to the low brass.....


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## samm (Jul 4, 2011)

They have a great sound, but are best when heard as the rest of the brass rests. I don't think they are required to get a big brass sound. Mr 'French Bruckner' Alberic Magnard got a rich brass sound in his symphonies without using WT.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Godd-er-damn-erung! That was good! But at 5:12, I hear an out-of-tune clarinet...just call me Pierre...I hate clarinets, they always sound out-of tune.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

samm said:


> Holst employed Wagner Tuben in _The Planets_, but they are almost always replaced by a euphonium.


Have to correct this: Holst wrote it for Tenor Tuba and Bass Tuba - no mention of Wagner tubas in the score. If anything distinguishes tenor tubas from euphoniums, it's the rotary valve in German made models of the former. Which cause the confusion, since Wagner tubas also use rotary valves.


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