# SS 06.06.20 - Dopper #7 "Zuiderzee"



## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

A continuation of the Saturday Symphonies Tradition:

Welcome to another weekend of symphonic listening!

For your listening pleasure this weekend:*

Cornelis Dopper (1870 - 1939)*

Symphony #7, "Zuiderzee"

1. Allegro animato
2. Humoreske: moderato
3. Andante rubato
4. Finale
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Post what recording you are going to listen to giving details of Orchestra / Conductor / Chorus / Soloists etc - Enjoy!


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

Another weekend is upon us and another Symphony is up for your listening enjoyment.

Thanks to Mika for stepping in during my absence. Things are finally getting back to normal around here so hopefully I will be back more frequently, but special thanks again to Mika and Cougarjuno for stepping in during my absences lately and for keeping the SS Tradition going alive and well. I hope everyone is healthy and well out there!

This week features the first appearance of Dutch compose Cornelis Dopper. I'm not familiar with Dopper and haven't heard any of his works so I'm looking forward to giving this one as spin. I hope everyone else can join in this weekend and give this one a listen.

I'll be listening to this one:




Kees Bakels/Netherlands Radio Symphony Orchestra


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

Never heard of Dopper before never mind this symphony
So another new work for me to try, and Spotify to thank


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## Mika (Jul 24, 2009)

Nice cover art. This one is available in spotify


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## cougarjuno (Jul 1, 2012)

Same for me via Spotify - Know very little about this composer. Dutch and Belgian composers get very little attention.


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## DaddyGeorge (Mar 16, 2020)

New to me, via Apple Music


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## D Smith (Sep 13, 2014)

Same as everyone else. I never heard of this composer before today.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Cornelis Dopper - Symphony No. 7 'Zuiderzee'
It's his weakest, Bambert recorded the best om Chamdos


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

View attachment 137377


This one as well, but from CD.


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## Joachim Raff (Jan 31, 2020)

Familiar to me and a welcome edition to the Saturday Symphony. Love to see these unsung composers get an airing.
To give some insight to the music of this Seventh Symphony he used music from Valerius Gedenck-klanck. This music were a collection of battle songs published during the eighty years war during the 16th Century against the Spanish. 
Dopper used the music in a similar way to express his feelings about WW1. The final movement is the highlight for me. Very charming in content but lacks some technical skill in its construction.


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

Another new work again this week and a new Composer to me.
Enjoyed the first listen and it is possible to hear themes from those collected songs appearing through the piece. The final movement with its military feeling and reference to WW1 makes for a topical (at least at the time) conclusion. 
I guess it seemed very relevant at the time but not a work to stand the test of time


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## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

Same recording for me, Kees Bakels/Netherlands Radio Symphony Orchestra, via Amazon Music HD (impressed that they have it). About to listen.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I will also listen to the same recording - are there any others?


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## D Smith (Sep 13, 2014)

Reading the backstory about the work and how it was performed at the onset of World War II helped me appreciate it more. Thanks for the suggestion RDP; something I would have never heard otherwise.


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## Joachim Raff (Jan 31, 2020)

Enthusiast said:


> I will also listen to the same recording - are there any others?


Dopper's two masterworks, the Seventh Symphony and the Ciaconna Gotica, were recorded in 1995 under the baton of Kees Bakels. They are also available in vintage and (in the case of the Ciaconna) severely cut versions (albeit conducted by Willem Mengelberg).









Dopper's works are vastly under performed and recordings are rare to say the least. There have been attempts to revive interest but to no avail. He is not even popular in his own native lands. The Essential Guide to Dutch Music. 100 Composers and Their Work (Amsterdam University Press 2000), do not even list him.


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## Joachim Raff (Jan 31, 2020)

Under the Mahler Foundation website there is a great image of who's who. Show's the elite company he brushed shoulders with.









1926. Left to right: Rudolf Mengelberg (1892-1959), Ottorino Resphighi, Willem Mengelberg (1871-1951), Igor Stravinsky (1882-1971), Cornelis Dopper (1870-1939), Mathilde Mengelberg-Wubbe (1875-1943), Sam Bottenheim, Mrs. Lourié, Arthur Lourié.


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## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

I’ve listened to this symphony a couple of times through and find it reasonably entertaining but not really good. I don’t find coherence among the movements or any sense of structure or progression. It also strikes me as being overly simple in its harmonies. The melodies are appealing in a straightforward way; after all, they are largely taken from folk and hymn music.

Whenever I listen to a new piece of music that I don’t find good, I tend to compare it to pieces it reminds me of that I think are better. The first movement of the Cornelis Dopper Symphony No. 7 reminds me a lot of Ives’ Symphony No. 1. I hear them both as being lively and earnest but simple to the point of being naïve. Dopper reminds me of Ives also because of the extensive quoting of folk and church melodies. However, I find Ives more interesting and much more complex (in his Symphony No. 3, for example). The second movement’s dance-like character seemed to me to come out of nowhere and to go nowhere, just to be a rather pleasant stand-alone piece. During the third movement I found myself thinking, “Wait, what? Now you’re Mahler?” That use of Malhlerian tone colors also just sort of emerged and went away again. The final movement seemed to be completely taken over by national tunes, again pleasant but not cleverly woven into an overall structure, just plopped in whole.

Nice listening experience, but I cannot rate the quality of the music very highly. The playing was top-shelf, though.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I wasn't familiar with Dopper's music - in fact, I'd never heard of him. I gave this symphony one listen.

Aside from some mildly interesting passages, mostly in the third movement _Andante_, I heard little to recommend this symphony. There was little original in the technique, some of which sounded pretty dull, and the music itself largely lacked character. Overall, I'd say that Dopper's music has easily earned its obscurity.

A kind of interesting outing for the SS, though not one of the better works it has brought to our attention.

(Added: Simplicissimus probably said it better!)


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## MusicSybarite (Aug 17, 2017)

Joachim Raff said:


> Very charming in content but lacks some technical skill in its construction.





Joachim Raff said:


> Dopper's two masterworks, the Seventh Symphony and the Ciaconna Gotica


If it were a masterwork, why would it lack some technical skill in its construction?


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## Joachim Raff (Jan 31, 2020)

MusicSybarite said:


> If it were a masterwork, why would it lack some technical skill in its construction?


In the context of his other works, probably.... 
I do like his Cello Concerto though.


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