# Was Tchaikovsky a Homosexual?



## Clouds Weep Snowflakes

Is it true he had an affair with a man? Did he have any relations with women at some point?


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## Art Rock

Depends whom you talk to. Some Russians (also here on TC) claim that he was heterosexual. Most of the rest of the world thinks otherwise. He sure loved big cannons...

The truth might have been he was bi - according to biographies, he really loved his one-time fiancee Belgian soprano Désirée Artôt, but his later marriage to Antonina Miliukova was a train wreck.


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## Barbebleu

The really big question is - who really cares? His music speaks for itself and his sexual orientation has zero impact on that.


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## Merl

He had a beard and liked musicals. Course he was gay!


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## amfortas

Barbebleu said:


> The really big question is - who really cares? His music speaks for itself and his sexual orientation has zero impact on that.


Too often, the "official" narratives of classical music history have left the impression that only straight white males can be great composers. It's worthwhile having a few reminders that this isn't the case.


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## Barbebleu

amfortas said:


> Too often, the "official" narratives of classical music history have left the impression that only straight white males can be great composers. It's worthwhile having a few reminders that this isn't the case.


Benjamin Britten springs to mind too. One of my favourite composers.


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## amfortas

Barbebleu said:


> Benjamin Britten springs to mind too. One of my favourite composers.


Yes, and he springs to your mind in this particular context only because you know he was gay. That knowledge doesn't add to or detract from his music, but it does contribute to a more rounded picture of what a composer can be.


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## Manxfeeder

amfortas said:


> Too often, the "official" narratives of classical music history have left the impression that only straight white males can be great composers. It's worthwhile having a few reminders that this isn't the case.


The Americans took up the slack in the 20th Century regarding homosexual composers, with Virgil Thomson, John Corigliano, Ned Rorem, David Diamond, Aaron Copland - I'm sure the list is bigger than I can recall. Unless the qualifier is "great," however you define that. I think they're pretty darned good.


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## joen_cph

Wiki has a list of some of them
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:LGBT_composers


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## Becca

Samuel Barber and Gian Carlo Menotti were a couple.


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## amfortas

John Corigliano and Mark Adamo are married. (That's probably in that link above, but oh well). 

EDIT: Just looked at the list. Damn, there's a lot of folks I didn't know were LGBT! Nice to see such a plentiful representation.


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes

Barbebleu said:


> The really big question is - who really cares? His music speaks for itself and his sexual orientation has zero impact on that.


Don't get me wrong, I love Tchaikovsky, his three ballets are some of my favorite pieces of music ever, I was just quite surprised to learn about his sexual orientation...


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## Vasks

Sexual orientation may be mildly interesting, but ultimately has no bearing on enjoying their music nor on how their music was written.


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## amfortas

Vasks said:


> Sexual orientation may be mildly interesting, but ultimately has no bearing on enjoying their music nor on how their music was written.


But I *would* maintain sexual orientation had a significant influence on Britten's choice of subject matter for some of his operas.


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## starthrower

amfortas said:


> Yes, and he springs to your mind in this particular context only because you know he was gay. That knowledge doesn't add to or detract from his music, but it does contribute to a more rounded picture of what a composer can be.


Yeah, gay or straight or bi like the other 7 billion humans on the planet.


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## amfortas

starthrower said:


> Yeah, gay or straight or bi like the other 7 billion humans on the planet.


It's good that people know that now.


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## Larkenfield

Are there stars in the sky?


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes

Larkenfield said:


> Are there stars in the sky?


What do you mean by that?


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## Larkenfield

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> What do you mean by that?


 It's an old expression meaning yes.


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## Judith

Couldn't care less. What really matters are his quality of works that were unique and absolutely beautiful


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## CnC Bartok

I am sure that Tchaikovsky's music could "sound gay", if that's what you want, but I'd have thought that's more a reflection on the listener than on the man himself....


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## CnC Bartok

Larkenfield said:


> Are there stars in the sky?


As in:

Is the Pope a Catholic?
Is Betty Ford a clinic?
Do bears s%*t in the woods?


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## AeolianStrains

Are bears Catholic? Does the Pope poop in the woods?


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## Larkenfield

The fact that he was does not mean that someone puts a judgment on it. But he did have an emotionally turbulent life and that was probably part of it by having to keep it secret in Russia. I believe that some of that emotional turbulence can be heard in his later symphonies, perhaps even as a message of his suffering to the world. But does a judgment have to be placed on it? No. What composer was ever more emotionally courageous, sensitive, and open? And what a huge influence he was on some of the other Russian composers, such as Rachmaninoff, who was also quite similar in his emotional directness and openness. That emotional courage was a huge factor in Russian music. But to be a homosexual then was looked down on, and it's _still_ officially looked down on in Russia.


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## eugeneonagain

Becca said:


> Samuel Barber and Gian Carlo Menotti were a couple.


A couple of what?


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## starthrower

CnC Bartok said:


> I am sure that Tchaikovsky's music could "sound gay", if that's what you want, but I'd have thought that's more a reflection on the listener than on the man himself....


C'mon! Dance Of The Sugar Plum Fairies is... well, very fairy like.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

I have it on good authority that Bach was gay. He really wanted to hide it so he kept having children so people wouldn't discover his gayness.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

CnC Bartok said:


> I am sure that Tchaikovsky's music could "sound gay", if that's what you want, but I'd have thought that's more a reflection on the listener than on the man himself....


What does gay music sound like? What parts of his music sound gay?


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## starthrower

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> What does gay music sound like? What parts of his music sound gay?


None of it. It's a stupid topic.


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## SixFootScowl

Larkenfield said:


> It's an old expression meaning yes.


right. by asking a different question with an obvious yes answer.


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## RockyIII

Tchaikovsky is one of my favorite composers. I don't know if his sexual orientation influenced his emotions and music, but it certainly seems likely. If he struggled personally because of it, I feel sorry for him, but at the same time I am thankful for whatever happened in his life that helped inspire his many wonderful musical compositions.


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## KenOC

It seems to me that if I didn't know Tchaikovsky was homosexual, I wouldn't be able to detect that in his music even if I were told to try.


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## Larkenfield

Fritz Kobus said:


> right. by asking a different question with an obvious yes answer.


It's an indirect way of answering a very personal question related to the composer and the title of the thread.


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## Steerpike

Barbebleu said:


> The really big question is - who really cares? His music speaks for itself and his sexual orientation has zero impact on that.


I believe the accepted truth is that Tchaikovsky was homosexual, and at the time of his death was involved in a relationship with a fairly senior figure in the Russian army - in fact he may well have committed suicide just to avoid the 'scandal' becoming public.

The issue of whether his sexual orientation affected his music is complex. His final 3 symphonies are all very dark, reflecting the unkindness of fate and his gradually worsening attitude to it. It's quite likely that this gloom arose from both his failed marriage and the fact that he was unable to enjoy his homosexual relationships given the attitudes and laws of the day.

So I would say his sexual orientation did affect his music, albeit indirectly, and probably also served to deprive us of more of it.


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## Larkenfield

Tchaikovsky's private life and letters: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/music/2018/jun/02/tchaikovsky-letters-saved-from-censors-reveal-secret-loves-homosexuality

Excerpt: In one, never before published in Russian or English, Tchaikovsky wrote of a young servant "with whom I am more in love than ever", adding: "My God, what an angelic creature and how I long to be his slave, his plaything, his property."

I would suggest that's a rather obvious hint about his sexual orientation. I consider his homosexuality just as relevant to his life and music as knowing that Beethoven was deaf, but not necessarily that Tchaikovsky wrote gay music but that he sometimes wrote highly emotionally charged music and he wasn't impersonal or detached about it. It's not that it has to matter to us as listeners but that it probably mattered to him personally. Many listeners have come to CM through his emotionally charged symphonies and charming ballets.


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## CnC Bartok

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> What does gay music sound like? What parts of his music sound gay?


See Starthrower's comment below your question. He makes my point about as eloquently as anyone could.


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## Harrowby Hall

A few years ago there was discussion of an account of Tchaikovsky's death.

Before he was able to devote himself to music he had been pressured into studying law. At what would appear to be the height of his career as a composer he was approached by a number of (now) highly placed former students of the law school who considered that irrespective of his place in Russian society as its greatest living composer, his homosexuality brought dishonour onto their law school and a "court of honour" condemned him and stated that it would bring the fact of his homosexuality to the general public. Effectively, they condemned him to death.

Tchaikovsky took poison. His death was, however, officially passed off as the consequence of drinking unboiled water during a cholera outbreak. I recall reading somewhere that at his funeral his coffin was open. This would have been unthinkable had he really died from cholera.


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## Zhdanov

Larkenfield said:


> Tchaikovsky's private life and letters: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/music/2018/jun/02/tchaikovsky-letters-saved-from-censors-reveal-secret-loves-homosexuality


fake letters, that is, published in some tabloid.


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## Barbebleu

Steerpike said:


> I believe the accepted truth is that Tchaikovsky was homosexual, and at the time of his death was involved in a relationship with a fairly senior figure in the Russian army - in fact he may well have committed suicide just to avoid the 'scandal' becoming public.
> 
> The issue of whether his sexual orientation affected his music is complex. His final 3 symphonies are all very dark, reflecting the unkindness of fate and his gradually worsening attitude to it. It's quite likely that this gloom arose from both his failed marriage and the fact that he was unable to enjoy his homosexual relationships given the attitudes and laws of the day.
> 
> So I would say his sexual orientation did affect his music, albeit indirectly, and probably also served to deprive us of more of it.


What I was really meaning was that his sexuality should have no impact on our appreciation of his music. It may or may not have had an effect on how he composed but regardless it shouldn't influence our understanding or appreciation of his art.


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## Meyerbeer Smith

No, Tchaikovsky wasn't gay:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/09/16/memo-5

https://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2013/sep/19/tchaikovsky-not-gay-more-musical-shocks


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## Larkenfield

Dr. Shatterhand said:


> No, Tchaikovsky wasn't gay:
> 
> https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/09/16/memo-5
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2013/sep/19/tchaikovsky-not-gay-more-musical-shocks


 What gems of Russian revisionism. A thousand years from now the Russian moralists themselves will be the last ones to admit that Tchaikowsky was a homosexual. At heart, the deniers and revisionists believe that it's fundamentally unmanly to be of that sexual persuasion. The Russian officials are worried that homosexuality is like a virus that the heterosexual males could catch and there would be no heterosexual males left to propagate the species. The more famous that one is of that sexual orientation, the greater the official and historic fairytales... This was the New Yorker article I tried to find but couldn't. The anti-gay official policy in Russia starts from the top with somebody like Putin and filters down as a rather unenlightened example of social resistance, unconsciousness, and denial, to the point of being ridiculous and humorous. The realities and sufferings of Tchaikovsky's life should be remembered for what it was and it wasn't exactly like Swan Lake.


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## Meyerbeer Smith

Larkenfield said:


> What gems of Russian revisionism.


Otherwise known as "satire".


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## Larkenfield

Dr. Shatterhand said:


> Otherwise known as "satire".


 Satire based on official Russian attitudes.


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## Larkenfield

Dr. Shatterhand said:


> Otherwise known as "satire".


That's obvious, but satire is based on reality, and in this instance, on official Russian attitudes, or there would be nothing to satirize.


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## KenOC

The story of Tchaikovsky being ordered to commit suicide by a "court of honor" because he seduced the son of a nobleman came out after the opening of the Soviet archives quite a few years back. It explained a lot -- for instance would a well-regarded restaurant really have served a glass of unboiled water, even on request, in the midst of a cholera epidemic?

However that story seems to have little support these days, for whatever reason. I'm sure Wikipedia has all the details!

BTW I seem to recall that both Pyotr and his brother Modest were homosexuals and discussed such matters in their correspondence, which survives.


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## Red Terror

Tchaikovsky wasn’t gay, he was just confused. You know who was really gay? Heitor Villa-Lobos.


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## SixFootScowl

Red Terror said:


> Tchaikovsky wasn't gay, he was just confused. *You know who was really gay? Heitor Villa-Lobos*.


That calls for a new thread!


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## Guest

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> Is it true he had an affair with a man? Did he have any relations with women at some point?


Your OP is slightly easier to answer than the question in the title of the thread. One's sexuality is not necessarily defined by one's actual behaviour.

This tacky article illustrates the point, if somewhat crudely.

https://www.ranker.com/list/gay-celebrities-who-never-came-out/celebrity-lists



> Though he was married five times to five different women, many people believed that Cary Grant was actually gay. He lived with actor Randolph Scott on and off for over a decade. He was also rumored to have hired male prostitutes.


Wouldn't that make Cary Grant bi-sexual? To "be" a homosexual, one might have to do more than simply be pronounced by the tabloids to be so.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Was Bach a Cuckold as that would explain all the kids and their varying musical talents


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## DavidA

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Was Bach a Cuckold as that would explain all the kids and their varying musical talents


No - Mozart had kids with varying talents


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## Larkenfield

Zhdanov said:


> fake letters, that is, published in some tabloid.


In the end, it probably doesn't matter except maybe to him what his sexual persuasion was. But really, no one has _ever_ been gay in Russia. It doesn't exist. It's a Western slur against the noble citizens of that country. Everything is faked and every publication a tabloid even if the original personal letters are written in the person's own handwriting and it's published in the New York Times. All fake. And Stalin was always a nice guy too... Good luck with that.


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## Lucas

Even « some russians » mentionned by Art Rock can’t claim that he was heterosexual because of the lack of concrete evidence they could show ; they just claim he was asexual, ignoring conclusive evidences that he was a practicing homosexual, discovered by Russians scholars in the Klin Archives. According to biographies, he was not bisexual : the disastrous failing of his marriage convinced definitely him that he was not. 

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet : I don’t think Bach discussed his homosexuality in his correspondence or that Bach’s brother discussed his homosexuality in his autobiography, as PT and his brother did. 

KenOC : I don’t know if I could detect that he was gay in his music, but I know some homophobic russian “scholars” that he couldn’t be other than asexual, because such “balanced” and “serene” music couldn’t have been written by a homosexual. What an high level of “scholarship” really… 

Zhdanov, absolutely not : these letters are in the archives of Klin and have been published with reported omissions long years ago. They are published in full now, that’s all. Bad faith has nothing to do in scholarship. 

Red terror : How do you know who was really gay ? And you, How do you know that he “wasn’t gay” but “confused” (???!!!) All serious biographers know that he was gay because of their archivistical and historical reseach, that’s quite simple. You can conclude that someone is gay when previously censured parts of his correspondence reveals that he had relations with men, when the autobiography of his brother mention the fact, that people who knew him mentioned that fact too, etc, etc. That’s people who still discussed endlessly that topic who are “confused”, objectively.


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## CnC Bartok

I am surprised by your assertion that nobody has ever been gay in Russia, Lark.

If this were true, why would their Tsar....oops, President, make such efforts to be photographed half naked astride a horse? Maybe he's trying to flush the few that do exist out into the open? Or does he crave their attention, in a purely sexual manner? 

I must admit the idea of Vladimir Putin as a gay icon (or the erudite, sophisticated Yelena Isinbayeva as same for ladies) appeals. I for one, find him deeply, deeply erotic. Phwoarrrh! He can come and "annex my peninsula" any day!!! :angel:


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## Zhdanov

Larkenfield said:


> the original personal letters are written in the person's own handwriting


did you see them personally?



Larkenfield said:


> it's published in the New York Times.


as if it proves a thing. NY Times often stands for 'a pack of lies'.



Lucas said:


> these letters are in the archives of Klin


no, they aren't there or anywhere, because they do simply not exist.



Lucas said:


> They are published in full now, that's all.


yeah? just like this 'published many decades later' all of a sudden? and no his contemporaries' account that contains no mention of his 'homosexuality' does count anymore?


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## joen_cph

(deleted, _The Guardian_-link has already been given here earlier).


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## Guest

> "Tchaikovsky was gay - although it's true that we don't love him because of that - but he was a great musician and we all love his music. So what?," Putin said in an interview with Russian state Channel 1 television


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ussians-love-him-anyway-idUSBRE9830XL20130904


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## SixFootScowl

Some of Tchaikovski's music is very gay! But not as gay as Mozart's.


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## BobBrines

Perhaps it is a language thing or perhaps not, but it appears several posters here do not understand the English term "sarcasm"!


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## millionrainbows

Barbebleu said:


> The really big question is - who really cares? His music speaks for itself and his sexual orientation has zero impact on that.


I'll go further than that: I hope he _was, _and I hope that some photographs or other evidence surfaces, so that I can post them here!!! Yeah, that'll show all you right-wing homophobes!


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## Zhdanov

millionrainbows said:


> Yeah, that'll show all you right-wing homophobes!


ain't homophobes at all, i for one have two buddies who are gays, but what should be stood by is facts: the man wasn't seen as a gay by his contemporaries, not even a rumor that could hint at something like that would circulate at the time, and these 'letters' are sure fakes like everything that surfaces decades later than the events.


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## Guest

Zhdanov said:


> the man wasn't seen as a gay by his contemporaries,


Evidence? This is going to be difficult to show - as we all know, absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence (such a smarty pants expression, but true).


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## DavidA

millionrainbows said:


> I'll go further than that: I hope he _was, _and I hope that some photographs or other evidence surfaces, so that I can post them here!!! Yeah, that'll show all you right-wing homophobes!


I think it's amusing the way people trot out this term 'Homophobe' in an argument. A phobia is an irrational fear of something eg claustrophobia. Not believing Tchaikovsky was gay hardly amounts to an irrational fear of gays!


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

DavidA said:


> I think it's amusing the way people trot out this term 'Homophobe' in an argument. A phobia is an irrational fear of something eg claustrophobia. Not believing Tchaikovsky was gay hardly amounts to an irrational fear of gays!


I wonder if Rasputin ever Composed?


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## Lucas

Did you see the original letters written by Napoleon, Stalin, Mozart, Einstein, Wagner… used by biographers of these characters ? Such bad faith is funny. Tchaikovsky’s letters are in the archives of Klin, as biographers and conservators clearly stated, denying it is ridiculous and the previous editions have been censured, it’s an hard fact. It’s published now in full for the same reasons why Brahms letters are now published in full, disclosing that he was in love with Clara Schumann : ancient times were prudish on these subjects, heterosexual or homosexual. And by the ways, contemporaries such as Nina Grieg viewed Tchaikovsky as a homosexual, bad luck. Tchaikovsky’s homosexuality is a well-established fact, get over it, there’s not in the realm of “believing”. Not believing that Napoleon or Bach were homosexual it clearly not homophobia, but lying in the case of Tchaikovsky or other historical characters such as Alan Turing or John Keynes clearly is. Remember what Lenin said about facts.


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## Zhdanov

Lucas said:


> Tchaikovsky's letters are in the archives of Klin


but nobody seen them.



Lucas said:


> as biographers and conservators clearly stated


anyone can state anything these days and statements have zero value.


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## Guest

Zhdanov said:


> but nobody seen them


You mean you haven't seen them?


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## Zhdanov

MacLeod said:


> You mean you haven't seen them?


and you haven't either.


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## Guest

Zhdanov said:


> and you haven't either.


Er, I know that. My point was, _you _mean, most importantly, you haven't seen them - not that "nobody has seen them" (what does it matter if I've seen them or not?)


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## Zhdanov

MacLeod said:


> _you _mean, most importantly, you haven't seen them - not that "nobody has seen them"


i mean you can trust only what you see yourself.


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## CnC Bartok

Zhdanov said:


> i mean you can trust only what you see yourself.


I've never been into space, so how do I accept that The Earth is spherical?


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## Guest

Zhdanov said:


> i mean you can trust only what you see yourself.


Yes that's exactly what I inferred that you meant. I disagree. I've never been to Russia. I take it on trust that it exists.


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## Zhdanov

CnC Bartok said:


> I've never been into space, so how do I accept that The Earth is spherical?


but they showed footages of it made from space.


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## Zhdanov

MacLeod said:


> I've never been to Russia. I take it in trust that it exists.


and you shouldn't have before you come visit here.


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## AeolianStrains

Zhdanov said:


> i mean you can trust only what you see yourself.


By that logic, since no one here has seen you, you don't exist. Therefore nothing written here is relevant.

QED


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## KenOC

Zhdanov said:


> but they showed footages of it made from space.


They showed footage of a monster destroying Tokyo too. And later, footage of the city still standing. Somebody's havin' us on!


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## Zhdanov

AeolianStrains said:


> By that logic, since no one here has seen you, you don't exist.


well a forum member is certainly not as real as a real person you meet in real life.



AeolianStrains said:


> Therefore nothing written here is relevant.


same about the media and books.


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## Bulldog

Zhdanov said:


> well a forum member is certainly not as real as a real person you meet in real life.


That's a bummer!


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## AeolianStrains

Zhdanov said:


> well a forum member is certainly not as real as a real person you meet in real life.
> 
> same about the media and books.


You say all this, yet, since you don't exist, I can't trust it. Therefore I can go back to having a normal trust relationship with scholarship.


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## Zhdanov

AeolianStrains said:


> I can go back to having a normal trust relationship with scholarship.


what scholarship? as if it says he was a gay? and even if it does, how it is more real than a forum member?


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## Lucas

Tchaikovsky's papers are located in Klin and a lot of people have obviously seen these papers. His correspondance shows clearly that he was homosexual and all biographers who consulted the unexpurgated letters mention that fact in their work. First editions of this correspondance made clear by suspension points that some parts of it is were censured because of their unprintable content at that time. To make things clear, these parts of his correspondance were obviously not censured in order to hid the fact that Tchaikovsky's hobby was to pick up flowers. ^^ So Tchaikovsky was homosexual, that's a scholarly proven fact since a long time now and people who would like to depict him as an "asexual" or platonic friend of men and claim that he was not seen as an homosexual in his day without substantiate it, know in fact perfectly themselves what the reality is. Even Nina Grieg, who lived in Norway wrote to Anna Brodsky that she was aware of this particularity.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Did he ever get it on (or off), with Rachmaninoff ?


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## eugeneonagain

Bulldog said:


> That's a bummer!


No, Tchaikovsky was...

I'll get my coat.


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## Lucas

Zhdanov said:


> but nobody seen them.
> 
> anyone can state anything these days and statements have zero value.


Not anyone's statement, but yours certainly : the only thing you seems able to do is to edit unconstructive and uninformed contents. There's a big difference between the careful work of all serious scholars and curators of Tchaikovsky's archives and your persistent and childish trolling.


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## KenOC

As always, the wish is father to the thought -- for some of us more than others, evidently.


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## CnC Bartok

I think we can scientifically conclude that there are no homosexuals in Russia. Never have been. Never will be.


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## Lucas

It's the same in Iran.


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## AeolianStrains

Lucas said:


> It's the same in Iran.


Didn't Iran just reclassify them as trans or something? Or was that fake news?


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## Lucas

AeolianStrains said:


> Didn't Iran just reclassify them as trans or something? Or was that fake news?


https://qz.com/889548/everyone-trea...y-one-way-to-survive-as-a-transgender-person/


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## KenOC

"As of 2019, the following jurisdictions, all of which have sharia-based criminal laws, prescribe the death penalty for homosexuality:"

See the *Wiki entry* for the list. I believe there is a similar penalty prescribed in the Old Testament.


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## Zhdanov

Lucas said:


> Tchaikovsky's papers are located in Klin and a lot of people have obviously seen these papers.


none of them have.



Lucas said:


> His correspondance shows clearly that he was homosexual


care to show them to me?



Lucas said:


> biographers who consulted the unexpurgated letters


when and who? names?


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## Lucas

Zhdanov said:


> none of them have.
> 
> care to show them to me?
> 
> when and who? names?


Everybody having seriously written about Tchaikovsky's life have, by definition. You're discrediting yourself.

Read biographies of Tchaikovsky before trolling here. None of them omit to discuss extensively this subject.

Since the archives have been declassified after the soviet era. Vladimir Volkoff, who wrote in french, was a Tchaikovsky's relative and by the way no particularly gay-friendly wrote in 1983 that scolars had then to wait to see these uncensored archives to have full infos about Tchaikovsky's intimate life, because censored versions on his correspondance by force just hinted at Tchaikovsky's homosexuality.

The problem with trolls is that they know absolutely nothing and haven't do any reseach, claiming all and nothing, such as nobody saw anything, spoke of nothing when even in Norway Tchaikovsky's homosexuality was a common knowledge in artistic circles in the nineteeth century.


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## Zhdanov

Lucas said:


> Everybody having seriously written about Tchaikovsky's life have, by definition.


show me the purported letters and then we talk.



Lucas said:


> Vladimir Volkoff


he wrote history fiction books having nothing to do with reality.


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## Lucas

Zhdanov said:


> show me the purported letters and then we talk.


There's not need to talk : all biographers of Tchaikovsky and curators of his archives published his full letters without omission, it's entirely available both on internet and in every library containing books on Tchaikovsky. Your behaviour is childish and discredit yourself in a very funny way. ^^

he wrote history fiction books having nothing to do with reality.[/QUOTE]

He wrote all sort of books, history fiction of course but a factual book on Tchaikovsky's life dealing very reluctantly with his homosexuality too, because the guy was rather homophobe but forced to be factual : he was not a troll from internet.


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## Lucas

AeolianStrains said:


> Probably gets paid a pittance by Putin.


With such a Pravda name, Zhdanov, I wouldn't be surprised. Vladimir Volkoff was the great nephew of Tchaikovsky and religiously a rather reactionnary orthodox. He wrote in his biographical book about his relative that he was forced to deal "without pleasure" with his homosexuality.


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## Bulldog

Lucas said:


> That's right, with pleasure or not, people have to be honest with fact and not indulge themselve in unconstructive and useless trollng.


I tend to feel disgusted with the constant use of "troll" on this and other threads. Although I don't agree with any of what Zhdanov has posted on the thread, he is not trolling.


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## Lucas

Bulldog said:


> I tend to feel disgusted with the constant use of "troll" on this and other threads. Although I don't agree with any of what Zhdanov has posted on the thread, he is not trolling.


I don't agree : he makes constantly false and clearly unconstructive statements instead of study the facts carefully. Isn't it trolling to repeat constantly : "where are the letters, nobody have seen the letters, I haven't see the letters, show me the letters" ? This is his only "contribution". That and to suggest that as Volkoff wrote historic fiction, he couldn't have written a biographical book on Tchaikovsky or personnal memoirs as well, or theatre although he actually do... No, sorry, the use of that word is in that case perfectly justified.


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## Lucas

Or to claim flippantly that nobody talked about his homosexuality in his days although at the contrary anybody can read, among other things in that book that Tchaikovsky's homosexuality was clearly a subject of discussion in artistic and mundane circles as show letters from Nina Grieg to Brodsky : https://books.google.fr/books?id=aQ...A#v=onepage&q=Edvard Grieg in England&f=false That is trolling, that and not to take into consideration that all biographers have clearly documentated that Tchaikovsky's was homosexual.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyotr_Ilyich_Tchaikovsky


> Despite his many popular successes, Tchaikovsky's life was punctuated by personal crises and depression. Contributory factors included his early separation from his mother for boarding school followed by his mother's early death, the death of his close friend and colleague Nikolai Rubinstein, and the collapse of the one enduring relationship of his adult life, which was his 13-year association with the wealthy widow Nadezhda von Meck who was his patron even though they never actually met each other. His homosexuality, which he kept private, has traditionally also been considered a major factor, though some musicologists now downplay its importance. Tchaikovsky's sudden death at the age of 53 is generally ascribed to cholera; there is an ongoing debate as to whether cholera was indeed the cause of death, and whether his death was accidental or self-inflicted.


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## Bulldog

Lucas said:


> I don't agree : he makes constantly false and clearly unconstructive statements instead of study the facts carefully. Isn't it trolling to repeat constantly : "where are the letters, nobody have seen the letters, I haven't see the letters, show me the letters" ? This is his only "contribution". That and to suggest that as Volkoff wrote historic fiction, he couldn't have written a biographical book on Tchaikovsky or personnal memoirs, as well or theatre although he actually do... No, sorry, the use of that word is in that case perfectly justified.


I've noticed that everyone who uses the word thinks it justified.


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## Lucas

Bulldog said:


> I've noticed that everyone who uses the word thinks it justified.


I explained why it is justified in that case.


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## AeolianStrains

Bulldog said:


> I've noticed that everyone who uses the word thinks it justified.


Just saying it isn't justified while someone went out of their way to explain exactly why it is justified sounds like trolling to me.

Kidding, of course, but I'm with Lucas. This isn't part of a constructive discourse. It's someone who's just denying things for the sake of it, just trying to stir the pot a bit.


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## EdwardBast

Zhdanov said:


> none of them have.
> 
> care to show them to me?
> 
> when and who? names?


Nice try Zhdanov. You and I had this exact discussion a year or two ago and you read quotes I posted from Tchaikovsky's letters and diaries proving numerous affairs with men - waiters, drozhsky drivers, bathroom attendants, young military officers, at least one anonymous black man in the park for money - They can all be found published in Poznansky's biography of the composer. Anyone who wants to dig up that Tchaikovsky thread, from the main discussion forum(?) - I think the subject was his supposed suicide  - please have at it. Or just look in the index of Poznansky under homosexuality.

Zhdanov, you know Lucas is right. You've read the evidence. So stop playing games.


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## Zhdanov

EdwardBast said:


> I posted from Tchaikovsky's letters and diaries


what you posted was fake, you presented no photos of his purported writings but merely someone's account of reading these.


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## Zhdanov

taking someone's word on the man being a gay is like believing those stories on alien abduction.


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## KenOC

Zhdanov said:


> taking someone's word on the man being a gay is like believing those stories on alien abduction.


Do you reallty believe WWII occurred? I mean, did you see it personally? Or are there just some fake newspaper accounts... :lol:


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## Larkenfield

Zhdanov said:


> taking someone's word on the man being a gay is like believing those stories on alien abduction.


Oh, like taking _your_ word for anything? This may come as a shock but other people have a much higher standard of scholarship than you do with your uninformed and unsubstantiated blanket denials. How are the investigations going in Russia on all the murdered journalists poisoned with radioactive toxic chemicals? It's no wonder that no one knows who to believe in Russia's alien universe except those who are able to step outside its borders.


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## Guest

Zhdanov said:


> taking someone's word on the man being a gay is like believing those stories on alien abduction.


I can't take your word on that...


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## KenOC

To say Tchaikovsky wasn’t gay would require a belief in a pretty vast conspiracy, including Diaghilev! And who would gain from this conspiracy? Who would have the slightest interest in promoting it? The fact is that the sexual preferences of Tchaikovsky are nothing more than a historical curiosity. Nobody gets excited about them (aside from Zhdanov of course…)


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## Guest

KenOC said:


> To say Tchaikovsky wasn't gay would require a belief in a pretty vast conspiracy, including Diaghilev!


...and Putin, as I pointed out earlier. No one took my word for it...or his either.


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## Zhdanov

KenOC said:


> Do you reallty believe WWII occurred?


at least they have footages to show -










- lots of them actually.


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## Guest

Zhdanov said:


> at least they have footages to show -
> 
> - lots of them actually.


You mean that if there was film of Tchaikovsky...er...being a homosexual...you'd believe it?


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## Zhdanov

MacLeod said:


> I can't take your word on that...


go to Klin then, ask them show you these 'letters' to see for yourself.


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## KenOC

Zhdanov said:


> at least they have footages to show -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - lots of them actually.


Lots of those over here! Some have John Wayne, or James Coburn, or even Steve McQueen! So I guess WWII really happened, eh?


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## Zhdanov

MacLeod said:


> You mean that if there was film of Tchaikovsky...er...being a homosexual...you'd believe it?


'film' in what sense? a footage documenting his making out with a man?


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## Zhdanov

KenOC said:


> Lots of those over here! Some have John Wayne, or James Coburn, or even Steve McQueen!


no John Wayne in the vids i posted, see?


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## KenOC

In reading these exchanges, I'm unavoidably reminded of how the real Zhdanov died.


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## KenOC

Zhdanov said:


> no John Wayne in the vids i posted, see?


Low budget, obviously.


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## Zhdanov

KenOC said:


> Low budget, obviously.


way much lower than what has been invested in the attempts to accuse the composer of being a gay.


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## Guest

Zhdanov said:


> 'film' in what sense? a footage documenting his making out with a man?


You tell me: you're the one demanding evidence of a particular type and standard.


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## Zhdanov

look folks, right now there is another demonisation going on, so we can witness how they do it. Michael Jackson is being portrayed as a paedophile by the media, while he merely was a person who feared growing up and so he surrounded himself with children because he had seen nothing good from adults.


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## KenOC

Uh...why is saying that Tchaikovsky was gay "demonization"?


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## joen_cph

Zhdanov said:


> look folks, right now there is another demonisation going on, so we can witness how they do it. Michael Jackson is being portrayed as a paedophile by the media, while he merely was a person who feared growing up and so he surrounded himself with children because he had seen nothing good from adults.


You must have been a very regular visitor at Jackson's place then, judging from your own logics, since you can claim that.

Well, I don't think you were.


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## Zhdanov

joen_cph said:


> You must have been a very regular visitor at Jackson's place then


had Jackson been a paedo, he would not only have pulled it off but also would be now among the glorified of the West.


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## Larkenfield

Zhdanov said:


> look folks, right now there is another demonization going on, so we can witness how they do it. Michael Jackson is being portrayed as a paedophile by the media, while he merely was a person who feared growing up and so he surrounded himself with children because he had seen nothing good from adults.


No one here is _demonizing_ Tchaikovsky because of his sexual orientation as a homosexual. In fact, it's just the opposite: he's being demonized because certain factions in Russia stubbornly refuse to admit to his homosexuality because it's looked down on as a defect in character when he may have simply been born that way and suffered because of the way it was viewed in his lifetime. So it's a terrible mistake to think that he's being looked down on because of his sexual orientation as evident in his own letters and the letters of those who knew him. The West has a different more tolerant view of homosexuality and they do not condemn it as they do in your country as a defect in character or as a slur on his character. I have seen no judgment of him as a homosexual in this thread; the only stigma comes from those who refuse to admit to the copious documentation seen by scholars and writers, for one ridiculous reason or another, that he was in fact a homosexual. So was Modest his brother! Now, _not_ acknowledging his sexuality, _that's_ what I would call demonization and look who's leading the charge. No one has been condemning him for his sexual proclivities that are sometimes beyond a person's control. But it's time that his documented homosexuality is fully accepted as being real and that there was no shame in it. There have been many documented homosexual composers, such as Aaron Copland, Virgil Thomson, Benjamin Britten, Samual Barber, Menotti, John Corigliano, and others. So it's hardly an unprecedented tendency among composers. The only difference is that the West is more open and less judgemental about it.


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## Zhdanov

Larkenfield said:


> The West has a different more tolerant view of homosexuality and they do not condemn


they do but only would not admit to doing so, and them going out of there way to accuse a composer from other country for homosexuality just proves that.


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## joen_cph

Zhdanov said:


> had Jackson been a paedo, he would not only have pulled it off but also would be now among the glorified of the West.


You've just said that Jackson is being unjustly demonized as a paedophile by Western media, and that he's innocent.

A couple of minutes later you say that he wasn't a paedophile, because if he was a paedophile, he would be glorified by Western media.

Either you are confused, or contradiction is the only purpose.


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## Zhdanov

joen_cph said:


> You've just said that Jackson is being unjustly demonized as a paedophile by Western media, and that he's innocent. A couple of minutes later you say that he wasn't a paedophile, because if he was a paedophile, he would be glorified by Western media.


glorified not for being a paedophile, of course.


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## Lucas

Zhdanov said:


> go to Klin then, ask them show you these 'letters' to see for yourself.


No, but you can go if you want. Scholars and biographers already did since years and published this correspondance in full. That's not a guy ...who will cast any doubt on this scholarly well and universally established historical datas.


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## Guest

joen_cph said:


> Either you are confused, or contradiction is the only purpose.


No..."No collusion, no obstruction." ?


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## Lucas

Zhdanov said:


> they do but only would not admit to doing so, and them going out of there way to accuse a composer from other country for homosexuality just proves that.


It's not an accusation, it's a fact. And even Russian know it perfectly, it's not a matter of nationality.


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## Zhdanov

Lucas said:


> It's not an accusation, it's a fact. And even Russian know it perfectly,


we don't and here's the museum website - https://tchaikovsky.house - no 'letters' in question in sight.


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## joen_cph

Zhdanov said:


> glorified not for being a paedophile, of course.


Ok, so if Jackson was a paedophile, he would have been able to hide that fact, and there would be no debate.
Whereas that it is now being debated, whether he was a paedophile, is a proof of that he wasn't one.

Still doesn't sound quite right, however.


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## DavidA

I don't think there was much doubt about his homosexuality.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2...rom-censors-reveal-secret-loves-homosexuality

What there does seem to be dispute about is the nature of his death, whether it was from cholera or whether suicide as an illegal affair was to be uncovered. The last biography I read is inconclusive.


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## Lucas

Zhdanov said:


> we don't and here's the museum website - https://tchaikovsky.house - no 'letters' in question in sight.


You are not "Russians", a lot of them are quite reasonnable and don't claim that to note he was homosexual is like to note that he was an alien ; even Putin don't seriously cast doubt about that historical fact : https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ussians-love-him-anyway-idUSBRE9830XL20130904. And it's not because hundreds of books written on Tchaikovsky are not mentionned on the presentation page of the Klin Museum that these hundreds of books don't exist. Your link is not an archive inventory, Tchaikovsky wrote thousands of preserved letters.


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## CnC Bartok

Zhdanov said:


> they do but only would not admit to doing so, and them going out of there way to accuse a composer from other country for homosexuality just proves that.


I've heard rumours that Benjamin Britten (a fellow Englishman) might have, ahem, "batted for the other side". Is this true? Would anyone like to corroborate this "slur on all British men"?

I won't mention Aaron Copland, Ned Rorem, David Diamond, for fear of being accused of Anti-American sentiment.


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## Lucas

CnC Bartok said:


> I've heard rumours that Benjamin Britten (a fellow Englishman) might have, ahem, "batted for the other side". Is this true? Would anyone like to corroborate this "slur on all British men"?
> 
> I won't mention Aaron Copland, Ned Rorem, David Diamond, for fear of being accused of Anti-American sentiment.


Really ??? I am so shocked...


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## Kivimees

KenOC said:


> In reading these exchanges, I'm unavoidably reminded of how the real Zhdanov died.


Indeed.

I'm led to wonder how well it would go over for a TC participant to post by the name of Goebbels complete with portrait.


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## CnC Bartok

I understand that said Zhdanov isn't remembered fondly up in Estonia. I wonder why.........:devil:


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## Lucas

EdwardBast said:


> Nice try Zhdanov. You and I had this exact discussion a year or two ago and you read quotes I posted from Tchaikovsky's letters and diaries proving numerous affairs with men - waiters, drozhsky drivers, bathroom attendants, young military officers, at least one anonymous black man in the park for money - They can all be found published in Poznansky's biography of the composer. Anyone who wants to dig up that Tchaikovsky thread, from the main discussion forum(?) - I think the subject was his supposed suicide  - please have at it. Or just look in the index of Poznansky under homosexuality.
> 
> Zhdanov, you know Lucas is right. You've read the evidence. So stop playing games.


Absolutely. The only "fake" here are the desperate and useless attempts to make us believe that Tchaikovsky's homosexuality hasn't now been proven since a long time by his own papers among other things, exploited by all his biographers, scholars and curators, none of them hinting that Zhdanov's kind of behaviour has the slightest beginning of relevance. I will add that I am reading a book about the sumerian world by Samuel Kramer at the moment. I am not going to yell "fake, fake, fake" at each page, because I hasn't see the cuneiform tablets on which his work is based and that nobody cared to send them to me in a parcel. That's a nonsense.


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## eugeneonagain

Anyone can go to Tchaikovsky Research and read his complete letters. There is an article on there about the Soviet critical edition of Tchaikovsky's complete works, which notes that his letters were purged of all references not only to his homosexuality, and intimate relationships (of all kinds) but also his illnesses and those of his friends and servants! They also bowdlerised all the language thought to be vulgar and removed ideologically unwanted material.

I guess the Zhdanov family must have received one of those copies.


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## Zhdanov

eugeneonagain said:


> Anyone can go to Tchaikovsky Research and read his complete letters.


poorly translated, yeah, like this one for example - http://en.tchaikovsky-research.net/pages/Letter_9 - where _'i miss you so much dear mom and dad'_ was translated as _'I am very sad'_ etc.

no wonder how did it come about him being seen a gay as a result, and we can only hope that it all ends *there* with no further slandering of his name and turning him into a bank robber or a serial killer.


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## CnC Bartok

Gay = Slander?

The words "backwards", "bigoted" and "primitive" spring to mind. For God's sake try dragging yourself out of the nineteenth century.


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## Zhdanov

same here - http://en.tchaikovsky-research.net/pages/Letter_319 - the last phrase translates not as _"What's mine shall be ours!"_ but _"our close circle will be visiting me"_ which is big difference.


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## mmsbls

Zhdanov said:


> ...
> no wonder how did it come about him being seen a gay as a result, and we can only hope that it all ends *there* with no further slandering of his name and turning him into a bank robber or a serial killer.


In this thread you have used the terms "accuse", "demonizing", and "slandering" for referring to Tchaikovsky as gay. On TC (or anywhere) those terms are inappropriate when discussing whether someone is gay just as they would be when discussing whether someone is left-handed. You may believe that Tchaikovsky was not gay, but please refrain from such usage.


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## Guest

Zhdanov said:


> poorly translated, yeah, like this one for example - http://en.tchaikovsky-research.net/pages/Letter_9 - where _'i miss you so much dear mom and dad'_ was translated as _'I am very sad'_ etc.
> 
> no wonder how did it come about him being seen a gay as a result, and we can only hope that it all ends *there* with no further slandering of his name and turning him into a bank robber or a serial killer.


So, your President Putin's assertion that Tchaik is gay (link posted by two separate members)...is that fake as well?


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## Zhdanov

mmsbls said:


> the terms "accuse", "demonizing", and "slandering" for referring to Tchaikovsky as gay. On TC (or anywhere) those terms are inappropriate when discussing whether someone is gay just as they would be when discussing whether someone is left-handed.


that is as of today, but as of the 19th century - it was completely different, and we are discussing a 19th century person, therefore we should approach things as they stood back then for better understanding and in order to pass fair judgement.


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## CnC Bartok

Zhdanov said:


> poorly translated, yeah, like this one for example - http://en.tchaikovsky-research.net/pages/Letter_9 - where _'i miss you so much dear mom and dad'_ was translated as _'I am very sad'_ etc.
> 
> no wonder how did it come about him being seen a gay as a result, and we can only hope that it all ends *there* with no further slandering of his name and turning him into a bank robber or a serial killer.


Clear use of THE PRESENT TENSE.

Unfortunately, here in "The West", your Motherland is being portrayed in a very bad light in recent years, a country where certain groups of people are not safe and not free to pursue their own lives as they see fit. Tragically, the attitudes you are displaying here do nothing to erase those feelings.


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## Zhdanov

CnC Bartok said:


> Clear use of THE PRESENT TENSE.


sure, because the man is with us, as a history figure, but he lived in conformity with his time, not that of ours.

besides, can someone put there finger on where does the research say he was a gay?


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## Zhdanov

CnC Bartok said:


> here in "The West", your Motherland is being portrayed in a very bad light in recent years,


as has always been, and this should be kept in mind when you deal with Western scholarship and the media.


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## Guest

@Zhdanov. Not that you're avoiding responding to my question, I'm sure. How about Putin's reported quote?


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## eugeneonagain

Zhdanov said:


> sure, because the man is with us, as a history figure, but he lived in conformity with his time, not that of ours.


That's right, a time when it was common for gay people to hide their real nature and even speak and write indirectly in private letters.

I don't really see what you think you are gaining with this ludicrous denial, why does it mean so much to you that Tchaikovsky not be gay? What victory is gained by pretending it's not what it is? Tchaikovsky probably spent all his life avoiding people with your view.


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## Zhdanov

eugeneonagain said:


> Tchaikovsky probably spent all his life avoiding people with your view.


or probably not?.. think about it.


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## eugeneonagain

Zhdanov said:


> or probably not?.. think about it.


Enlighten me. Why would he not be avoiding people who insist he isn't what he was?


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## CnC Bartok

Zhdanov said:


> or probably not?.. think about it.


I'd imagine what Tchaikovsky suffered under the heavy hand of intolerance of the late 19th century must have been very similar to what would be experienced by Russian homosexuals in the early years of the 21st century?


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## Zhdanov

eugeneonagain said:


> Why would he not be avoiding people who insist he isn't what he was?


because you made it all up, perhaps?



CnC Bartok said:


> I'd imagine what Tchaikovsky suffered


i'd imagine he didn't and it is your imagination that sees him suffer.


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## Taggart

We have a number of posts attacking members rather than arguing the case. They have been removed.

This thread appears to have reached an impasse.

The thread is now closed.


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