# Worthwhile Normas



## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

I love Norma as the opera and the variability it can be sung and even stage-acted with.

I have wanted to create this thread for some time, but now @Seattleoperafan started discussing it elsewhere, so I might as well do it now.

The basics are Callas, Sutherland Caballe... Who else ?

Edit: To clarify, I am most interested in recorded singing with a reasonable technical quality. Something I can listen to and enjoy.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Howabout








the only one I ever listened to


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

hammeredklavier said:


> Howabout
> 
> 
> 
> ...


She records very well in a studio but I would doubt she could pull it off in a theatre with her small voice.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

We have discussed Gina Cigna with @Seattleoperafan. Somebody described her as taking a verismo approach to Norma.


BBSVK said:


> ... I listened and let it be. The bad recording quality probably contributed to it.





Seattleoperafan said:


> That was my verdict as well. You just saved me a search I was beginning on. Have you heard Shirley Verrett do Norma? It was my favorite of her soprano roles and she was in third place with me of those who did the whole role after Callas and Caballe. Sutherland did some really good acting in the role in a live broadcast from Australia later in her career and her voice was bigger throughout her range than in her studio recording. Dimitrova was very good and she studied with Cigna. I was lucky to see Jane Eaglen at the start of her US career when she had the combination of flexibility and dramatic volume I like in the role. It was a peak experience for me and I saw it twice. Also she was at least 50 pounds lighter then than she became by the time she took up Wagner. She even took the alternate D6 in the trio which you wouldn't expect from such a huge voice.


Verrett - I checked Las Vegas recording, no objection to the voice, but the conducting was rushed, which I hate in Norma especially. I'll check the other recordings of her in the role.

The video of Sutherland in Sydney made me fall in love with the opera to begin with. At the end I actually forgot, she looks like Pollione's grandmother. And I love the "incorrect" Liebestod ending.

Dimitrova - doesn't stand out as something unique, don't remember what she did, but I was pleased. I think I focused on Adalgisa there, whoever it was, maybe someone who was capable of singing both roles.

Eaglen - don't know this one at all, thank you.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Late Sutherland in a live video recording from Australia had really sunk her teeth into the role by that point and did some very convincing acting plus her voice was much bigger throughout her range than in her studio recording early in her career. I heard Verrett on a Met Opera Radio broadcast and she was almost as good as Caballe and did by far the best soprano singing I heard. Dimitrova had surprising agility and sang the part with great beauty and passion. I would have loved to have heard her live. Eaglen's studio recording was not as good as the pirated version I had from her Seattle performances early in her career. Milanov should have been good in the role vocally as she had many of the qualities you want from a Norma but it was a bit of a flop.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BBSVK said:


> We have discussed Gina Cigna with @Seattleoperafan. Somebody described her as taking a verismo approach to Norma.
> 
> 
> 
> ...






 This is from Eaglen's first Norma early before she started singing Wagner. She lost some of her flexibility by the time she sang this in New York after singing a lot of Wagner. Her voice was absolutely enormous and I found it very beautiful. You can see that like Caballe she was slimmer at the beginning of her career from the photo.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

hammeredklavier said:


> Howabout
> 
> 
> 
> ...


One of the most absurd recordings ever made. Norma really needs a good cast and strong singing so I couldn't recommend this to anybody except the extremely curious.


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## Tietjens Stolz (Jun 2, 2015)

hammeredklavier said:


> Howabout
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bartoli is not Norma. At best she is Normina or Norminetta. 

This review on Amazon by Dr Philip Cokkinos best describes and sums up the problems of this recording.

But, if you enjoy it, then, chacun à son goût.

*"I listened to this recording several times before attempting to review it.
NORMA is my favorite opera and this the 36th and newest version in my collection. I have heard the title role sung by artists as diverse as Rosa Ponselle (in excerpts only), Gina Cigna, Zinka Milanov, Maria Callas, Leyla Gencer, Joan Sutherland, Montserrat Caballe, Elinor Ross, Beverly Sills, Elena Suliotis, Anita Cerquetti, Renata Scotto, Grace Bumbry, Shirley Verrett, Ghena Dimitrova, Jane Eaglen, Edita Gruberova, Daniella Dessi, Nelly Miricioiu, Hasmik Papian, and Mariella Devia, so I do consider myself entitled to give an informed opinion.
I can only name 3 singers who have been great Normas. In chronological order they were Ponselle, Callas, and Caballe.
Regarding this latest recording, I must confess beforehand that I am not a fan of Cecilia Bartoli, having always considered her to be less of a stage performer and more of a concert artist, and a vulgar one at that, taking no risks and prone to mannerisms. Well, at the age of 46 she confounded the critics and finally sang Norma on stage, NOT in Italy, but in Salzburg. Was she afraid to sing the role in Italy, choosing a safer Germanic milieu instead? I will not comment on the horrendous 2010 Dortmund concert version and will await until the (modern staging) Salzburg performance becomes available on DVD or YouTube to pass judgment on that.
This recording is supposed to treat the operatic score "come scritto" and as it must have sounded in Bellini's time, with relatively smaller voices and orchestral sound on period instruments (ie of slightly lower pitch).
Much of it is admirable, even beautifully performed. The Scintilla Orchestra really shines with brilliance and accuracy under Giovanni Antonini, but some passages sound too fast and he should have let the music breathe more.
Michele Pertusi has just the right amount of vocal heft for Oroveso. In the past we have heard baritonal tenors with honking bronze voices as Pollione (del Monaco, Corelli, Domingo, even Vickers) and in John Osborn we have a light lyric, almost Rossinian tenor. It is a good portrayal, even if the voice sounds impersonal and the diction occasionally suffers. One wonders what Joseph Calleja, Gregory Kunde or even Juan Diego Florez would have done with this role.
The role of Adalgisa is here delegated to a soprano. This is nothing new, one can refer to Eva Mei, Mirella Freni (on disc) and even Montserrat Caballe (the 1984 Decca recording with Joan Sutherland) in the past. Well as Sumi Jo may sing Adalgisa's music, her portrayal is so faceless, her vocal color so ordinary, that neither the character's ardor nor her youth come across as credible.
And then we have Cecilia Bartoli. One must first of all admire her tenacity, stamina, diligence and sheer guts in undertaking what the French call "le role des roles". I have seen Bartoli both in concert and on stage. She has an expressive voice and virtuoso technique, but I regard her as a flamboyant performer who likes to show off, whose art never matured, and who resorts to exaggerated rolled rrrrs, yodelling trills and little sighing, giggling mannerisms.
It is evident that she worked long and hard on Norma and luckily we have very little of the above. The voice is not large but expressive throughout its considerable range, the phrasing accurate and elegant. Some of the vindictive, tigress-like outbursts impress, but one wonders whether they sound convincing because she is singing 10cm from the microphone and if they would be the same on a large stage. One also wishes she would follow performing tradition and prolong some iconic moments like the confession of her guilt in "Son io" or the exposed high C on "Sangue Roman" (where Callas famously cracked in Paris in 1964) , which add infinite dramatic credibility to the role.
She delivers many passages beautifully; "Casta Diva", sung softly, with long breath control, an added cadenza and variations in the second stanza, is lovely. The trio which concludes Act I is brilliant with its threatening phrases repeated and embellished. The "Mira o Norma" duet is admirable. I found her two best moments in the final scene, a "Qual cor tradisti" duet which is a lesson in lyrical emotive singing and a final plea in "Deh non volerli vittime" which is simply heart-rending.
BUT my main objection is to her overall portrayal, which is wrong, totally wrong. She gives us Anna Magnani instead of Norma, we hear a jilted Neapolitan bourgeoise instead of the divine Gallic priestess. The atrocious photographs of a black-clad, dishevelled Bartoli on the recording's cover and in the Notes show a village woman who is the object of adulterous vendetta on a Greek island (Bartoli's album photos have always been of execrable taste, think the embarrassing Sonnambula and Sacrificium artwork!). This downgraded interpretation becomes clearly audible in a horribly paced, blandly sung "In mia man alfin tu sei", which happens to be my favorite part of the work. What we hear is a "cornuta" housewife hen-pecking her errant husband. No, this is NOT Norma. Listen to this performance, then refer directly to Maria Callas and Mario del Monaco at La Scala in 1955 to understand how this magnificent duet should sound! One has simply to read the Italian libretto to remind oneself that Vincenzo Bellini clearly did not intend his heroine to be incarnated the way Bartoli has: the priests describe Rome's star covering itself as Norma approaches, Adalgisa fears her "Celeste austerita", to Pollione she is a "Sublime donna"! This is no ordinary human role for any singer to undertake but an impossible, often unattainable, operatic challenge. There are clear indications why Norma is considered the pinnacle of Italian soprano roles and I regret to say that the worthy Cecilia has disregarded them.
In conclusion, by all means do buy this version and listen to it for an "authentic" musicological interpretation and some beautiful singing. But for a real portrayal of Norma please allow me to go back to Callas and Caballe (no, not Sutherland) in their respective primes."*


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> She records very well in a studio but I would doubt she could pull it off in a theatre with her small voice.


She's well heard with a baroque - classical orchestra in her repertoire. I heard her four times, in Salzburg (including Grosserfestspielhaus) and at a recital in New Mariinsky (rumor has it she asked to switch off air conditioning). 
I didn't hear her Norma live, only in a recording. I think it's interesting as a particular rendition, but of course, it's not canonic. 
There are so many Normas, it's wonderful we can enjoy them all.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Cerquetti. Yoncheva. Dessi. Bumbry. If you need anyone except Callas, Sutherland and Montserrat 🥰.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

BBSVK said:


> I love Norma as the opera and the variability it can be sung and even stage-acted with.
> 
> I have wanted to create this thread for some time, but now @Seattleoperafan started discussing it elsewhere, so I might as well do it now.
> 
> The basics are Callas, Sutherland Caballe... Who else ?


Huge thumbs up for Radvanovsky!!!!


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## damianjb1 (Jan 1, 2016)

Seattleoperafan said:


> She records very well in a studio but I would doubt she could pull it off in a theatre with her small voice.


I would have said the same thing but she did a very successful run of performances at Salzburg around the same time this recording was made. It was a small theatre but apparently she was very good.


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## damianjb1 (Jan 1, 2016)

Op.123 said:


> One of the most absurd recordings ever made. Norma really needs a good cast and strong singing so I couldn't recommend this to anybody except the extremely curious.


I don't think it's an 'absurd' performance. It's an opportunity to hear Norma on period instruments, to hear a light soprano Adalgisa (as sung at the first performance), and to hear a very good Pollione. It's beautifully conducted and Bartoli gives, at the very least, an 'interesting' performance. She certainly isn't my favourite Norma but she takes it very seriously and sings it quite well. 
The main issue for me is there are so many places when I just want more 'voice', but I find the last duet with Pollione and the finale to be very beautiful and moving. 
My go to Norma is Callas' stereo version.
I'd definitely recommend people the Bartoli a listening though as it has many very fine aspects.


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## damianjb1 (Jan 1, 2016)

ColdGenius said:


> Cerquetti. Yoncheva. Dessi. Bumbry. If you need anyone except Callas, Sutherland and Montserrat 🥰.


Cerquetti is definitely worth hearing.
I'm a bit partial to the Elena Souliotis recording as well. It's very bad but there is something perversely enjoyable about it. It's also got Cossotto and del Monaco in it and they sing the crap out of it. Completely tasteless - but quite enjoyable.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

damianjb1 said:


> I would have said the same thing but she did a very successful run of performances at Salzburg around the same time this recording was made. It was a small theatre but apparently she was very good.


Oh yes!!! It makes a huge difference! My sister's house in Germany only sat 700. Can imagine how wonderful that would be!!!


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

damianjb1 said:


> I don't think it's an 'absurd' performance. It's an opportunity to hear Norma on period instruments, to hear a light soprano Adalgisa (as sung at the first performance), and to hear a very good Pollione. It's beautifully conducted and Bartoli gives, at the very least, an 'interesting' performance. She certainly isn't my favourite Norma but she takes it very seriously and sings it quite well.
> The main issue for me is there are so many places when I just want more 'voice', but I find the last duet with Pollione and the finale to be very beautiful and moving.
> My go to Norma is Callas' stereo version.
> I'd definitely recommend people the Bartoli a listening though as it has many very fine aspects.


Adalgisa can be played by a lighter voice, but it's not a soubrette role. And Norma should never sound like a soubrette either, nor should Pollione be an underdeveloped lyric tenor. The whole thing just lacks drama, scaled down to only the smallest proportions - I can't see the appeal. The stereo version with Callas is better, but the voice is not what it was. The 1955 performance from La Scala is far superior, there she is in exceptional voice and thus freer to act the role more completely. Good mono broadcast sound too, but not comparable to the stereo effort for EMI in terms of audio quality.

Caballe's performance from Orange is very good for a DVD option.

But really this is a difficult opera and there are few recordings that do it justice. I'm sure Raisa and Ponselle would have been excellent but they didn't leave full recordings. Cerquetti is good, as is Verrett. Sutherland is fine but to me it's not a role which suits her temperament and requires more thrust in the lower register.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Oh yes!!! It makes a huge difference! My sister's house in Germany only sat 700. Can imagine how wonderful that would be!!!


Großes Festspielhaus contains about 2000 seats, Felsenreitschule and Haus für Mozart contain about 1500 seats each. They have good acoustics, probably because of being cut off in the rock.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Late Mariella Devia.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

On the three occasions over the last twenty years or so that *Norma *was considered in BBC Radio Three's _Building a Library _programme, the final decision came down to a choice between Callas's two studio recordings. On each occasion it was a different reviewer who chose. Live or unofficial recordings were not considered. Had they been so, I'm sure the choice would also have included live La Scala 1955. As it is, Callas's hegemony in the role cannot be denied.

Personally, I don't need any other recording and the one exception I have is the DVD of Caballé's Orange performance with Vickers and Veasey. Caballé is on terrific form and it really is a superb performance.


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## Shaafee Shameem (Aug 4, 2021)

Amongst the complete assumptions of the role, Callas is supreme, Caballe and Cerquetti next in line with wonderful moments, if not thoroughly perfect. Souliotis, Verrett, Angeles Gulin and Deutekom too have their moments. 
From those who have only recorded excerpts, Giannina Russ and Rosa Raisa in my opinion are the most adept. Apart from them, Rosa Ponselle, Celestina Boninsegna, Vera Amerighi-Rutili, Maria de Machi, Emilia Corsi, Terse Arkel too have recorded some fine excerpts.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Shaafee Shameem said:


> Amongst the complete assumptions of the role, Callas is supreme, Caballe and Cerquetti next in line with wonderful moments, if not thoroughly perfect. Souliotis, Verrett, Angeles Gulin and Deutekom too have their moments.
> From those who have only recorded excerpts, Giannina Russ and Rosa Raisa in my opinion are the most adept. Apart from them, Rosa Ponselle, Celestina Boninsegna, Vera Amerighi-Rutili, Maria de Machi, Emilia Corsi, Terse Arkel too have recorded some fine excerpts.


If I had to choose between early Callas and Ponselle it would be a tie for me. Most here would say Callas only.


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## Shaafee Shameem (Aug 4, 2021)

Seattleoperafan said:


> If I had to choose between early Callas and Ponselle it would be a tie for me. Most here would say Callas only.


Sadly we don’t have a complete recording of Ponselle. She would have been wonderful in the first act duet with Adalgisa as well as in ’Deh non volerli vittime’.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Shaafee Shameem said:


> Sadly we don’t have a complete recording of Ponselle. She would have been wonderful in the first act duet with Adalgisa as well as in ’Deh non volerli vittime’.


Sorry I was chatting with someone else recently and I was thinking in terms of who I would have liked to have gone back in time to hear. Late Sutherland would make me happy as well.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Just saw the opener and I’m not sure if this is entirely recordings or about recordings and live but despite Sutherland’s recording laying around the house all my life, I never really cracked the opera. Until I saw Radvonovsky do it live and it was one of the exciting nights of the last 20 years in the opera house!


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

hammeredklavier said:


> Howabout
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If she is the only Norma you have ever listened to, I can understand you like it. She delivers Bellini's music, and if she doesn't do something downright terrible, like bleating (and that exists, I will not name the singer), it must give some positive impression. For me, it is a very weird outlier, which I accept more for the purpose of variety. Like, this can also be done.

Or did you choose her on purpose, after hearing the snippets of others ? I can even imagine that, if you love classicism so much, maybe her style would make you feel like at more familiar territory ?


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

ColdGenius said:


> Late Mariella Devia.


Well, Mariella is no Norma, but she is still alive. 

Full recordings from the distant past, I would mention Milanov 1944, as interesting. In the same vein, Leyla Gencer 1966, Renata Scotto 1978/1979... apart from the already mentioned.

Norma is Giuditta Pasta. That means, Norma is Maria Callas. 

In more recent times, and attending live in the theater, my favorite Norma was Dimitra Theodossiou.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

schigolch said:


> Well, Mariella is no Norma, but she is still alive.
> 
> (Or are you more advanced in these idioms than I thought, @ColdGenius ?)
> 
> ...


We, non native speakers, mean by "late" just late, e.g. late in her career. It was very confusing, until I learned, it means "dead" 

I like Mariella Devia as well, but I don't blame anybody, who doesn't enjoy Normas from my wild variety.

I am glad somebody appreciates Gencer, it used to be my most favorite for a month or so.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

schigolch said:


> Well, Mariella is no Norma, but she is still alive.
> 
> Full recordings from the distant past, I would mention Milanov 1944, as interesting. In the same vein, Leyla Gencer 1966, Renata Scotto 1978/1979... apart from the already mentioned.
> 
> ...


I meant late, opposite to early, and not dead. I hope she's in good health. 
Asmik Grigorian also sang it recently.


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## toasino (Jan 3, 2022)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Late Sutherland in a live video recording from Australia had really sunk her teeth into the role by that point and did some very convincing acting plus her voice was much bigger throughout her range than in her studio recording early in her career. I heard Verrett on a Met Opera Radio broadcast and she was almost as good as Caballe and did by far the best soprano singing I heard. Dimitrova had surprising agility and sang the part with great beauty and passion. I would have loved to have heard her live. Eaglen's studio recording was not as good as the pirated version I had from her Seattle performances early in her career. Milanov should have been good in the role vocally as she had many of the qualities you want from a Norma but it was a bit of a flop.


The Caballe Norma from Orange, France is gorgeous. Live though, I was more impressed with Sutherland's performance than Caballe's. I agree that Joan's voice became larger throughout the range as she got older, though her voice in her first Norma recording sounds gorgeous!


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## Andante Cantabile (Feb 26, 2020)

Shaafee Shameem said:


> Amongst the complete assumptions of the role, *Callas *is supreme, Caballe and Cerquetti next in line with wonderful moments, if not thoroughly perfect. Souliotis, Verrett, Angeles Gulin and Deutekom too have their moments.
> From those who have only recorded excerpts, Giannina Russ and *Rosa Raisa* in my opinion are the most adept. Apart from them, Rosa Ponselle, Celestina Boninsegna, Vera Amerighi-Rutili, Maria de Machi, Emilia Corsi, Terse Arkel too have recorded some fine excerpts.




*Claudio Arrau*, one of the greatest pianists of the 20th century, was a great admirer of Callas. While he admired Callas's Norma very much, he rated Rosa Raisa's Norma (whom he saw in Buenos Aires when he was very young) even higher:



> *She was like a wild animal, so ferocious and intense but also sang the great cantilenas with such purity and beauty. The melodic line was fantastic. Every tone was marvelously produced. All the registers were equally good. The pitch was perfect. The coloratura fantastic. The acting was marvelous. She was also one of the most beautiful singers to look at. Her movements were marvelous.
> 
> Of course, Callas was also very great in this role. So many sopranos will sing a nice ‘Casta diva’ and then do very little after that. Not Callas. The ‘Casta diva’ was only one part of an unforgettable interpretation. I heard her sing Norma with Stignani and their voices blended so beautifully in the duets – and they were in tune! Callas made a big effect also in the final act when Norma confesses her guilt. Her arm, so proud and decisive, suddenly wilted and collapsed. Bellini, here, I think reaches sublime heights of expressiveness. Callas’ voice soared through those wonderful melodies with such inspiration. It was really great. *



Rosa Raisa congratulating Callas backstage at the Chicago Civic Opera House, 31 Oct 1954 (Callas's US debut, as Norma)

By the way, Raisa is more remembered in history as the creator of the title role of Puccini's _Turandot:_



Here's Raisa as Norma:


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## Shaafee Shameem (Aug 4, 2021)

Andante Cantabile said:


> *Claudio Arrau*, one of the greatest pianists of the 20th century, was a great admirer of Callas. While he admired Callas's Norma very much, he rated Rosa Raisa's Norma (whom he saw in Buenos Aires when he was very young) even higher:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for that quote from Arrau! Raisa, though unfairly forgotten today, was considered the greatest dramatic soprano of her time by many, including Toscanini and Caruso. In her time, She was considered the greatest Norma, greater than Ponselle.


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## Andante Cantabile (Feb 26, 2020)

Shaafee Shameem said:


> Thank you for that quote from Arrau! Raisa, though unfairly forgotten today, was considered the greatest dramatic soprano of her time by many, including Toscanini and Caruso. In her time, She was considered the greatest Norma, greater than Ponselle.


Raisa's Norma is best represented on discs by her previously unpublished 1929 electric recording of the Act 1 cabaletta "A bello a me ritorma":






It has to be noted, however, that Raisa herself hated her commercial recordings and felt they hardly reflected what she really sounded like. She even wrote in 1962 explaining why she possessed none of her records : "I would listen to them, and then break them into pieces."


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

For me, Raisa has none of the myriad colors that Callas was able to bring to the notes, never mind the suppleness to the phrases. The descending scales in Callas‘s voice were like “a string of pearls,” (I don’t recall who said that). Raisa also sounds too nasal for my taste in this recording. While I wouldn’t go so far as break her records, I’m not surprised she chose to. Callas also handles the coloratura with better control and elegance.

Yes, Raisa’s voice is firm and clear and brighter than Callas’s in spots.

Sorry folks, no cigar.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

MAS said:


> For me, Raisa has none of the myriad colors that Callas was able to bring to the notes, never mind the suppleness to the phrases. The descending scales in Callas‘s voice were like “a string of pearls,” (I don’t recall who said that). Raisa also sounds too nasal for my taste in this recording. While I wouldn’t go so far as break her records, I’m not surprised she chose to. Callas also handles the coloratura with better control and elegance.
> 
> Yes, Raisa’s voice is firm and clear and brighter than Callas’s in spots.
> 
> Sorry folks, no cigar.


I have introduced Raisa into contests before and she has had a mixed bag of success on our forum.


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## PaulFranz (May 7, 2019)

Celestina and Adelina.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I have introduced Raisa into contests before and she has had a mixed bag of success on our forum.


It‘s unfortunate that we have limited recordings of some of the great singers of the past and thus a snapshot of their abilities at a certain moment of time. Just as we can’t tell from a studio recording what the singer sounded like live in a theater, we can’t tell from acoustic or electric primitive recordings exactly what a Golden Age singer sounded like “live.” And even our own live recordings are limited by the transmission.

The Met in HD singers sound like they have a mic down their throats.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Andante Cantabile said:


> Raisa's Norma is best represented on discs by her previously unpublished 1929 electric recording of the Act 1 cabaletta "A bello a me ritorma":
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't wonder that she hated her recordings if this is typical. Apart from what the recording process does to her tone - I hope it was warmer and richer than it sounds here - there's very little light and shade in the phrasing, and consequently no pathos or soulfulness in "Casta diva." If she was considered superior to Ponselle in the role it must have been for her total dramatic presentation and not for her singing.


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## Andante Cantabile (Feb 26, 2020)

MAS said:


> It‘s unfortunate that we have limited recordings of some of the great singers of the past and thus a snapshot of their abilities at a certain moment of time. Just as we can’t tell from a studio recording what the singer sounded like live in a theater, we can’t tell from acoustic or electric primitive recordings exactly what a Golden Age singer sounded like “live.” And even our own live recordings are limited by the transmission.
> 
> The Met in HD singers sound like they have a mic down their throats.





Woodduck said:


> I don't wonder that she hated her recordings if this is typical. Apart from what the recording process does to her tone - I hope it was warmer and richer than it sounds here - there's very little light and shade in the phrasing, and consequently no pathos or soulfulness in "Casta diva." If she was considered superior to Ponselle in the role it must have been for her total dramatic presentation and not for her singing.


Claudio Arrau's memory of Raisa's Norma suggests that she (as he heard in the big and spacious Teatro Colon in Buenos Aires) delivered the grand arches of Bellini's melodies with great import and vocal heft and amplitude and at the same time she possessed sufficient flexibility to handle the coloratura passages well, leaving a tremendous impression on Arrau. It's certainly the overall dramatic presentation that impressed Arrau most, yet that doesn't necessarily mean that Raisa is a better Norma than Ponselle or Callas. Arrau's recollection does suggest that Callas (whose Norma he probably heard either at La Scala in January 1952-when she was at her pre-diet vocal peak, or at ROH Covent Garden in Feb 1957-when she had become pencil-thin but vocally still in her prime) delivered the role with greater musical and dramatic precision and incisiveness. Perhaps the overwhelming impression Raisa's Norma made on Arrau's mind never left him by the time he heard Callas and we should just treat his comment (that Raisa's Norma was even greater than Callas's) more as his own personal opinion than an objective assessment of the comparative strengths of the Normas of Raisa and Callas.

On the other hand, a big dramatic voice like Raisa's was always extremely difficult to capture satisfyingly by the acoustic recording horn or the electric recording microphone, especially when these are placed very closely in front of the mouth. The early recording process could also be quite unkind to such voices, not only failing to capture their heft and amplitude, but also magnifying their inherent peculiarities, in Raisa's case the nasality of her sound. Another soprano of similar type whose voice suffers in the recording process in the same way was Bianca Scacciati, greatly admired as a leading dramatic soprano at La Scala in the 1920s and 1930s and also a famous Turandot herself. Ponselle herself was seldom satisfied with her own commercial recordings and much preferred the airchecks of her live radio broadcast concerts, where the microphone was placed at a much greater distance from her than the electric recordings.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

MAS said:


> For me, Raisa has none of the myriad colors that Callas was able to bring to the notes, never mind the suppleness to the phrases. The descending scales in Callas‘s voice were like “a string of pearls,” (I don’t recall who said that). Raisa also sounds too nasal for my taste in this recording. While I wouldn’t go so far as break her records, I’m not surprised she chose to. Callas also handles the coloratura with better control and elegance.
> 
> Yes, Raisa’s voice is firm and clear and brighter than Callas’s in spots.
> 
> Sorry folks, no cigar.


This recording is not at all Raisa in her prime. Around 1920 she cut out a lot of chest voice participation and the whole voice suffered, her singing became noticeably less dramatic and less full-toned.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I seem to remember really liking Raisa in the _In questa reggia _competition, but with her and other erstwhile great Normas, like Ponselle, we only have patchy recorded evidence and hearsay, where Callas's Norma is well documented throughout her career. In fact there are probably more recordings of her singing the role than any other soprano. Aside from the two studio recordings, we have complete, or almost complete recordings of her singing the role at various stages throughout her career. She first sang it in 1948 and finally in 1965 and it was the role she sang more on stage than any other. We even have a few filmed snippets of her singing it on stage. This is no doubt why she casts her shadow over the role like no other. No matter how much we may dream of the Normas of Pasta or Malibran, of Lilli Lehmann, of Ponselle or of Raisa, we can't really know what they were like, whereas with Callas we have a plethora of evidence.

La Scala 1955 for me represents the pinnacle of her achievement in the role, the performance where voice and art find their purest equilibrium, but I would never want to be without the two studio recordings, live performances from London in 1952, Trieste in 1953 and Rome in 1955. By the time of her 1964 and 1965 performances, much of the role was beyond her, but she can still command a Bellinian line better than any other and the less taxing moments are often supremely moving. I find the snippets we have of Normas of the past tanatalising and interesting, but, when it comes to post WWII Normas, the only one I listen to now is Callas, though I do occasionally dig out Caballé's Orange performance on DVD.


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## Concertantek364 (Mar 13, 2021)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I seem to remember really liking Raisa in the _In questa reggia _competition.....


Raisa, regrettably, never recorded any music from _Turandot._ Perhaps you mean to say Scacciati, who sang Turandot in Rome three weeks after the opera's world premiere at La Scala on 25 April 1926 with Raisa creating the title role.


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## Concertantek364 (Mar 13, 2021)

Andante Cantabile said:


> Raisa's Norma is best represented on discs by her previously unpublished 1929 electric recording of the Act 1 cabaletta "A bello a me ritorma":
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That quote from Raisa comes from a letter she wrote in 1962 to Charles B. Mintzer, who in turn wrote the liner notes for Marston's issue of Raisa's complete recordings:

*"Your collection of my recordings I don’t have—because I would listen to them, and then break them into pieces—They never showed the volume of my voice—just a faint remembrance of how I sounded on the stage— in my days recording was much more difficult than it is today."*

Mintzer also cited the essay of Cecil Smith for _Opera_ magazine in anticipation of Callas's debut in London as Norma in November 1952:

*"[Smith] compared the five Normas of his experience (Raisa, Ponselle, Milanov, Cigna, and Muzio- He had heard all in person except Muzio whose Norma he felt he could reconstruct from his familiarity with her in other roles), saying “Raisa...took a showman’s attitude, using the music to display the spectacular flexibility and freedom of her voice. Her ebullience was exciting, but she was on the whole undiscriminating both musically and dramatically, although her characterization was well conceived in its externals.”*

That's a somewhat different opinion of Raisa's Norma from Claudio Arrau's.

The entirety of Mintzer's essay on Raisa can be accessed on Marston's product website: Marston Records | Home


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Ponselle on Raisa:

"She was a great Norma. That huge voice of hers, impressive coloratura and top notes... She could be singing top notes all day!".


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

schigolch said:


> Ponselle on Raisa:
> 
> "She was a great Norma. That huge voice of hers, impressive coloratura and top notes... She could be singing top notes all day!".


In her prime Raisa was a force of nature. When even Ponselle calls the voice huge you know it's something special.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Concertantek364 said:


> Raisa, regrettably, never recorded any music from _Turandot._ Perhaps you mean to say Scacciati, who sang Turandot in Rome three weeks after the opera's world premiere at La Scala on 25 April 1926 with Raisa creating the title role.


My memory was obviously tricking me. Yes, it was Scacciati whom I voted for. It must have been something else I like Raisa in.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

MAS said:


> It‘s unfortunate that we have limited recordings of some of the great singers of the past and thus a snapshot of their abilities at a certain moment of time. Just as we can’t tell from a studio recording what the singer sounded like live in a theater, we can’t tell from acoustic or electric primitive recordings exactly what a Golden Age singer sounded like “live.” And even our own live recordings are limited by the transmission.
> 
> *The Met in HD singers sound like they have a mic down their throats.*


This surprises me because no Met singers are ever miked.
It is possible, however, that in the HD's there are mikes securely ensconced around the stage (which is a different thing) but otherwise no mikes are ever used anywhere on the Metropolitan stage or on any singers.
(If someone can prove me wrong, I welcome hearing about it.)


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> This surprises me because no Met singers are ever miked.
> It is possible, however, that in the HD's there are mikes securely ensconced around the stage (which is a different thing) but otherwise no mikes are ever used anywhere on the Metropolitan stage or on any singers.
> (If someone can prove me wrong, I welcome hearing about it.)


Singers probably wear recording mics for the broadcasts. It won't sound any different in house but will allow the voices to be heard clearly on video.


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## Concertantek364 (Mar 13, 2021)

schigolch said:


> Ponselle on Raisa:
> 
> "She was a great Norma. That huge voice of hers, impressive coloratura and top notes... She could be singing top notes all day!".


Toscanini characterised Raisa as the female version of Francesco Tamagno (the Italian dramatic tenor who created Verdi's Otello).


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Op.123 said:


> Singers probably wear recording mics for the broadcasts. It won't sound any different in house but will allow the voices to be heard clearly on video.


The Met might have directional mics in front of the stage as well as above the orchestra.
I am not sure they use body mics. But the singers sure sound close in those cinema transmissions.


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## toasino (Jan 3, 2022)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I seem to remember really liking Raisa in the _In questa reggia _competition, but with her and other erstwhile great Normas, like Ponselle, we only have patchy recorded evidence and hearsay, where Callas's Norma is well documented throughout her career. In fact there are probably more recordings of her singing the role than any other soprano. Aside from the two studio recordings, we have complete, or almost complete recordings of her singing the role at various stages throughout her career. She first sang it in 1948 and finally in 1965 and it was the role she sang more on stage than any other. We even have a few filmed snippets of her singing it on stage. This is no doubt why she casts her shadow over the role like no other. No matter how much we may dream of the Normas of Pasta or Malibran, of Lilli Lehmann, of Ponselle or of Raisa, we can't really know what they were like, whereas with Callas we have a plethora of evidence.
> 
> La Scala 1955 for me represents the pinnacle of her achievement in the role, the performance where voice and art find their purest equilibrium, but I would never want to be without the two studio recordings, live performances from London in 1952, Trieste in 1953 and Rome in 1955. By the time of her 1964 and 1965 performances, much of the role was beyond her, but she can still command a Bellinian line better than any other and the less taxing moments are often supremely moving. I find the snippets we have of Normas of the past tanatalising and interesting, but, when it comes to post WWII Normas, the only one I listen to now is Callas, though I do occasionally dig out Caballé's Orange performance on DVD.


For me, the Caballe Orange performance is vocally superior to the Callas performances I have heard but then, I place vocal beauty over vocal expression though Caballe was very dramatically, convincing in Orange. Sutherland was also a great Norma at the Met, being very dramatically convincing in the last act. I also saw Caballe at the Met, but for some reason, don't recall much about that performance.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

toasino said:


> For me, the Caballe Orange performance is vocally superior to the Callas performances I have heard but then, I place vocal beauty over vocal expression though Caballe was very dramatically, convincing in Orange. Sutherland was also a great Norma at the Met, being very dramatically convincing in the last act. I also saw Caballe at the Met, but for some reason, don't recall much about that performance.


You must block direct messages.


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## BaronAG (2 mo ago)

toasino said:


> For me, the Caballe Orange performance is vocally superior to the Callas performances I have heard but then, I place vocal beauty over vocal expression though Caballe was very dramatically, convincing in Orange. Sutherland was also a great Norma at the Met, being very dramatically convincing in the last act. I also saw Caballe at the Met, but for some reason, don't recall much about that performance.


Well, if you lived in the time of Bellini and were able to attend the world premiere of _Norma_, you would most likely find the original creator of the title role, Giuditta Pasta, intolerable and wonder why Bellini chose her.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

toasino said:


> For me, the Caballe Orange performance is vocally superior to the Callas performances I have heard but then, I place vocal beauty over vocal expression though Caballe was very dramatically, convincing in Orange. Sutherland was also a great Norma at the Met, being very dramatically convincing in the last act. I also saw Caballe at the Met, but for some reason, don't recall much about that performance.


"She opened a new door for us, for all the singers in the world, a door that had been closed. Behind it was sleeping not only great music but great idea of interpretation. She has given us the chance, those who follow her, to do things that were hardly possible before her. That I am compared with Callas is something I never dared to dream. It is not right. I am much smaller than Callas." - Montserrat Caballé


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## Viardots (Oct 4, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> "She opened a new door for us, for all the singers in the world, a door that had been closed. Behind it was sleeping not only great music but great idea of interpretation. She has given us the chance, those who follow her, to do things that were hardly possible before her. That I am compared with Callas is something I never dared to dream. It is not right. I am much smaller than Callas." - Montserrat Caballé


There is more from Caballé that can be quoted. She saw Callas as her mentor and advisor and credited Callas for being the one who encouraged her to take up Norma:

FROM VIDEO, 8 OCTOBER 2018:
MONTSERRAT CABALLÉ AND MARIA CALLAS: DIVAS AND FRIENDS
Source: France Musique – Écouter la radio en direct et podcasts opera/video-montserrat-caballe-et-maria- callas-deux-divas-deux-amies-66000

Montserrat Caballé: I think that Maria, of course, as an artist, a singer, a musician, is unique in our century. Maria was absolutely special – for her heart, her thinking, her intelligence and musicality, her dramatic instinct in realizing the characters she portrayed. As for me, I never saw her on stage, and only had the opportunity to see her in 1974 at Carnegie Hall. But, you know, Maria always said to me: “It’s better [laugh] that you did not see me, because, if you had, you would have tried, like the others, to imitate me!” [big laugh] But in fact she gave me very good advice – on the matter of repertoire, for example. I was offered the opportunity to sing Macbeth at La Scala, some years ago, but it was Maria who said: “No! Don’t even think about it!” [laugh]

Interviewer: She was adamant!

Caballé: Yes indeed. She was right, of course. And – again, some years ago – when I was offered Nabucco at the Met, she said: “No, no. Leave that one alone!” I thought: it’s impossible, this role, I will never be able to do it, never."

[Video title: The role of Norma, with Caballé]
This was in 1969. And she said to me: “But yes, you must try it, because it’s a role absolutely made for your voice.” But I said:
“I have been listening to your recording, it is so beautiful.”
“Forget the record: take the score and don’t listen to the recording any more – learn the notes”, and so on. And really, she gave me a marvellous path to Norma, and I think that is why I have managed to sing Norma well and correctly. I had success throughout the whole world, because I followed her advice to sing it accurately ... she always said: “El canto del cigno, tu lo puoi fare" -That is: this is swan’s song, you can do it, the type of singing that Bellini wanted; so you must do it, it is your duty to do it, YOU! Don’t try to move or make dramatic gestures, just try to sing this beautiful melody with your eyes closed.” And I think she was right – I followed her advice. And then she was a very charming woman, not at all as she is sometimes depicted. Moreover, she always said:
“You will see, when I am not here any more, there will be books about me, people will make themselves rich with biographies of me!” [big laugh]

(Translation by Solvej Crevelier)


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