# Things that you think are inappropriate for musical treatment (on the stage)...



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

*So, now they say the novel/movie American Psycho will be turned into a musical *-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/culturenews/9221030/American-Psycho-the-musical.html

This is after various movies have gone down the same route. I think some of the Disney ones have been okay, eg. _The Lion King_. There have been others like _Billy Elliott_ and _Spiderman_.

But _American Psycho_? Isn't that going too far? Beyond good taste and decency? Is it offering just titillation & voyeurism (along with the mutilation?).

What other things do you think might be out of bounds for this sort of treatment - eg. turning them into a musical, opera, operetta, etc.?

I would say things like this shouldn't be given the music theater treatment, these would in my opinion be trivializing (or glorifying?) mass murder or serial killing, basically -

_Schindler's List
The Boston Strangler
The Texas Chainsaw Massacre_

*What do you think? What comes to your mind regarding these issues? Is there a line of good taste, etc. that should not be crossed?*

*Discuss.*


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

I personally find the concept of things being in good and bad taste quite dubious, and I don't just mean that because taste is supposed to be subjective.

My issue is that, instinctively, I think, "Yeah, it does seem like a bit of an over-step to have a serial killer prancing around on stage singing numbers", but what does it actually _mean_ to say that something glorifies or trivialises death and violence? I think the notion is quite similar to outdated obscenity laws which state that something is obscene if it is likely to morally corrupt the viewer - this is a very primitive, very controlling view of morality and taste, and, of course, no person deserves or can be trusted with the role of arbiter.

Let's be frank, we're talking about censorship here.

So long as the content is made clear in advance and no one is being deceived, paying adults should be able to watch what they like. Otherwise, we find ourselves on a rather slippery slope, and will start hearing even more nonsense about video games turning ordinary children into serial killers etc., or perhaps a children's book about two male penguins adopting a baby being propaganda for the homosexual agenda. See the difficulties?

It's also worth remembering that suffering of all kinds is trivialised every day all over the place, particularly in politics and the media. If I were going to get outraged about any of it, the first thing I would focus on would be women's magazines which I always find shocking when I walk into a store, them being adorned with such sensationalist, gruesome things as, "MY EX BATTERED MY FACE WITH A HAMMER" or "RAPED BY MY DAD AND MY MUM WOULDN'T HELP". These aren't plastered across their front pages to muster moral support, they are voyeuristic trash. I still wouldn't condemn them though.


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## Newman (May 3, 2012)

There is absolutely nothing that couldn't be turned into a musical. You can say anything with music. I would love to see more not-so-traditional musicals made about real-life events. I love Richard Burton musicals, but what I'm talking about is something that is more realisitic, and not so fantasy.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

American Psycho is a fairly unpleasant read but as a musical I don't think it would be that far removed from Sweeney Todd, relatively speaking. Birtwistle's Punch wasn't exactly a reluctant killer, either!


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

Leatherface, Leatherface!


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## tgtr0660 (Jan 29, 2010)

Absolutely nothing.


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

Tell that to the people who invested in the Muslim version of "Jesus Christ Superstar"


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

I don't know about musicals, but opera already treats such topics as incest (Die Walküre), rape (_Rape of Lucretia_), attempted rape (_Tosca_), torture (_Tosca_ again), babies getting tossed into fires (_Il Trovatore_), people getting burned at the stake (_Don Carlo_), prostitution and/or kept women (_Tháis_, _La Traviata_), nymphomania and possible necrophilia (_Salome_), and general murder and mayhem. I suspect it's not the topic, but how it's treated.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

MAuer said:


> I don't know about musicals, but opera already treats such topics as incest (Die Walküre), rape (_Rape of Lucretia_), attempted rape (_Tosca_), torture (_Tosca_ again), babies getting tossed into fires (_Il Trovatore_), people getting burned at the stake (_Don Carlo_), prostitution and/or kept women (_Tháis_, _La Traviata_), nymphomania and possible necrophilia (_Salome_), and general murder and mayhem. I suspect it's not the topic, but how it's treated.


Then there's Lulu . . .


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

_Things that you think are inappropriate for musical treatment (on the stage)..._

The Ikea catalogue.


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

Ha! TC will never witness Jeremy Marchant auditioning for a creative interpretation of a singing shoe rack!


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Looks like I'm out of step with people here, but I do take some points, esp. re the fear of censorship. But I'm not saying books/films like _American Psycho _cannot appear in those forms. I'm saying that to do them in a musical production (eg. musical theatre or opera) is beyond the pale of basic decency, reflecting what Polednice said here -



Polednice said:


> ...
> My issue is that, instinctively, I think, "Yeah, it does seem like a bit of an over-step to have a serial killer prancing around on stage singing numbers", but what does it actually _mean_ to say that something glorifies or trivialises death and violence?
> ...


Re censorship -



> ...
> Let's be frank, we're talking about censorship here...


Again, what I'm saying is I think that films like _The Last King of Scotland _- telling the story of one of the worst dictators of Africa, Idi Amin - was a great piece of cinema (again, it was based on a novel, mixing fiction and fact). However, this kind of thing as a musical would be in poor taste, esp. in terms of Amin's victims. It would be glorifying a brutal dictator imo.

Of course, one could argue how it's done. Shakespeare's _Macbeth_ is an example of very gory drama, and it has been turned into an opera by Verdi and others. However, I feel that for various reasons, that is different. One thing is that_ Macbeth _is about an ancient king of Scotland, not about the present time. It's different with for example survivors of Amin's regime, and other genocidal regimes, still alive today. I think doing a musical version of a dictator closer to our own times would be plain wrong.

Same as with things like _The Boston Strangler_, or even purely fictional psychopaths like Hannibal Lecter in _The Silence of the Lambs_ or the guy played by Jack Nicholson in _The Shining_. Great ideas for movies, bad ideas for musical treatment.



MAuer said:


> I don't know about musicals, but opera already treats such topics as incest (Die Walküre), rape (_Rape of Lucretia_), attempted rape (_Tosca_), torture (_Tosca_ again), babies getting tossed into fires (_Il Trovatore_), people getting burned at the stake (_Don Carlo_), prostitution and/or kept women (_Tháis_, _La Traviata_), nymphomania and possible necrophilia (_Salome_), and general murder and mayhem. I suspect it's not the topic, but how it's treated.


As I said, those are subjects of past history, already where when they were written long ago. THere's enough real psychopaths around, we don't need these kinds of examples like I gave in my OP. Nor do I think _The Last King of Scotland _or _Schindler's List_ would be good in musical form, for reasons I gave above.

My bias is that I'm no big opera fan, but still, some of my favourite operas are very dark, but not titillating. Eg. Berg's _Wozzeck_. & my favourite musical is Kander & Ebb's _Cabaret_, the film starred Liza Minelli and Joel Grey, it's far from a walk in the park. There is violence in it but not graphic. So this kind of holding back on horror and gore is what I'm saying.

& re what Polednice raised, the issue of homosexuality or sexual morality (etc.), this is not really about that. Eg. I don't think people complained when Britten did operas that reflected his own position as an outsider, with at least one main character being sexually ambigious. I'm talking of his opera version of _Death in Venice_, the middle aged guy's relationship with the young boy (I'm thinking of the film version by Visconti, but Thomas Mann's novella is the source of both that and the opera). & with a recent British opera, I think it may have been by Ades or Turnage, it had oral sex in one of the scenes. But no complaints from people there, so where's the censorship of these things? Nothing seems to be out of bounds in the sexual department, it seems.

I don't think there's much left for composers to push boundaries in the sexual sense, it's open slather, the only thing that most people would not like is those kinds of tabloid headlines you speak of being turned into artworks that somehow condone those acts of domestic violence or sexual assault, etc. So it might not be that these things are entirely off bounds but how they're treated.

In any case, treating things as serious as the Holocaust or mass killings I don't think can or should be done in musical theatre or opera. Eg. I heard about a musical version of _The Diary of Anne Frank _being done years back (below an article about it). I have not heard this musical. But my question is similar to the author of this article,_ do we need it? _ We've already got the original book (the diaries), the play and the movie based on this (& also memoirs of the family who shielded the Frank family, and also the memoirs of Anne's father, Otto). Only use I can see is to make hype around it and make money, basically. Funny how people here are sceptical of commercialism but not in this case. I smell a rat, esp. with _Amercian Psycho - The Musical_.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/stage/theatreblog/2008/jan/07/thisannefrankmusicalstrike


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

I once saw a chamber opera written in 2010 with singing male genitalia (using puppets operated by the singer for that part). I don't think anything can get weirder than that on stage.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I once saw a chamber opera written in 2010 with singing male genitalia (using puppets operated by the singer for that part). I don't think anything can get weirder than that on stage.


Don't forget Barry Kosky's direction of a Verdi opera, about 10 or so years ago (maybe it was _Nabucco_, but he did a number of Verdi operas). One of the scenes had - how do I put it on a _family_ forum? - imitation male genitalia all over the stage. Dunno what that has to do with Verdi or the plot in any way, but there you go. I think I could be a director if it's doing that sort of thing.

But what I'm saying is that with these sexual things in opera, the threshold has long been crossed. Anything goes. I just hope that at least respecting victims of horrible crimes does not go similarly down this path of anything goes (_if it sells, any publicity is good publicity_, etc.). Bums on seats, bums on seats, say the markeing men in suits, who probably themselves know little about Verdi and more about schlock horror or other gimmicks to get those paying customers filling the venue, night after night, whatever it is that's on.

& we think Madame Mao was really bad with those Chinese Communist agitprop operas she wrote. Sheeesh...


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Another thing I remember in Australia is *a musical made about David Hicks*, the guy who went from here to Afghanistan to fight for the Taliban. He spent many years in Guantanamo Bay and was allowed back to Australia around 2007. He's controversial, I think he should have had a fair trial not just been imprisoned as he was, but he seemed to be liked by those on the left of the political spectrum. What better to make a musical out of his ordeal? But it's ironic how the Taliban banned music (& I think dancing). Anyway, maybe it's too late, the horse is no longer inside the gate, but has bolted? What next? _Osama Bin Laden - The Musical, or opera?_...


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Better a musical than an opera.

A cantata, maybe... yeah. a cantata would be good.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

^^Yep, a musical, opera, operetta or cantata to the death of basic boundaries of taste and respecting people who've gone through all manner of horrors, from the Holocaust to 9/11, etc. Let's just dance all over the victims' graves and lay wreaths, glorify the criminals who perpetrated these sorts of deplorable acts.

Everything's a joke around here, but we get on our high horses if some music or composer we value is put down. Well okay, fair enough. But what about these other things that actually matter in the _real world_?

Forget it.


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

Books and movies seem able to offer significant gravitas that they are able to depict horrendous subject (genocide, serial killing etc) but opera apparently lacks that seriousness. This is quite odd because music is often invoked for the the most serious, contemplative reasons: masses, requiems and works such as Schoenberg's A Survivor from Warsaw.

Steve Reich wrote WTC 9/11, would an opera on the same subject be unacceptable. There is already an opera about terrorism, The Death of Klinghoffer, certainly controversial but regarded by opera listeners as a sensitive reading of a difficult subject.

Why does film get permission to approach the subject but opera is seen as being tacky. Is simply singing about something seen as trivialising it. There are songs about rape, murder and other serious subjects in popular music which also deal with the subjects carefully and are not just out to shock or titillate. Perhaps it is more about giving voice to terrorists or murderers but also giving beautiful voice to them with the use of heldentenors and sopranos that makes it objectionable.

Maybe the relative inaccessibility of opera, seen as a lot of unapproachable warbling to entertain some art snob elite, is what makes opera treatments of these thing problematic. If a movie is made about the holocaust everyone has the potential to watch it, judge it and criticise it but opera is pre-placed on a pedestal, difficult to watch and in a foreign style for many people. An opera is often viewed as unquestionably high art simply because it is in the form of an opera but also merely entertainment. Opera is never viewed as documentary even though many big budget movies, made to entertain, are regarded as realistic depictions.

No opera stage could show the D-Day landings like Saving Private Ryan did, but they could do the later melodrama of the movie without the action sequences. Does the authenticity of the first part of that movie permit the rather more staged human drama of the latter part, a prologue or background that the overture and music can't supply.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

I do agree that any opera dealing with recent historic events/individuals (the Holocaust, Idi Amin, etc.) should take the feelings of victims and their families into consideration. But again, it's not necessarily the subject matter but how it's treated that would make me decide whether or not something is in poor taste. BTW, _The Dairy of Anne Frank _is often performed at German opera houses. I think it's one of the ways in which German citizens are/have been facing up to and emotionally confronting their nation's Nazi past. Nothing disrespectful here toward Holocaust victims at all; rather remembering them and their sufferings.


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## Romantic Geek (Dec 25, 2009)

Show Boat still hasn't had a revival where the original words were reinstated. There's only one recording (by John McGlinn) that does so. 

I guess people still think the n-word is in bad taste. I think it's just part of the historical attitudes at the time there.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

I don't know if you'll come back, Sid, as you seem frustrated with the thread, but three points I would have made in brief:

1) I sympathise with your distinction between recent and distant historical events, making some less appropriate than others for musical treatment as victims or relatives are still alive, but I'm not sure why you think anything fictional should be off limits, as with your _Silence of the Lambs_ example. What makes that any different to the vast number of operas already pointed out that are similarly fictional and gruesome?

2) I'm not entirely certain of your intended meaning behind the repeated use of "glorification". I could understand trivialisation, but even if a musical was written about a tragic event and seemed tasteless, I don't think it would be condoning and endorsing the acts portrayed. I would again draw a parallel here with video games and those who say that first-person shooters glorify violence - they _feature_ violence, but they don't glorify it.

3) Whatever our assessments of anything are, I think it is extremely important to make it explicit that we're talking about _personal_ opinion and taste here, and not presuming to speak for the better of our society. As such, I think it's best to stay away from loaded terms like "decency". If anyone does think they can speak for the good of society, that will need to be heavily substantiated.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Romantic Geek said:


> Show Boat still hasn't had a revival where the original words were reinstated. There's only one recording (by John McGlinn) that does so.
> 
> I guess people still think the n-word is in bad taste. I think it's just part of the historical attitudes at the time there.


There was that kerfuffle recently with the altering of Mark Twain's use of the word as well - most publishers have the n-word properly instated though. I think there's probably significant difference in audience reaction depending on whether you're seeing or hearing the word.


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## obwan (Oct 24, 2011)

Personally, I've always wondered why they havn't done an operatic porno, or at least an nc-17 version of some of the greatest operas. We need to bring in a wider audience, and the best way to do that is imho porno. Besides that I'd like to see more Horror, Sci-fi and mysteries broght to the stage. 

I know this diverges from the question, but this is what popped in my head when I read the topic


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

On the contrary, I imagine the audience for operatic pornography would be comparatively small.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

I personally hate post-WWII history or celeb operas. Seriously, WTF? Who the hell wants a _politician_ singing arias? Give me a king, an outlaw, an artist, a god...


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I take the gist of people's points. The basic thing is the subtlety of how these things are treated and guarding against censorship. I will address the gist of some of the above posts in depth.

I talked to some acquaintances about this and they were more on the side of it being okay to do musical versions of these things. I guess the buck stops with the person who would pay to see or hear such a thing (I for one wouldn't). One person did mention that there were winds of a big budget musical done about 9/11 in the USA, but it was nipped in the bud. Similar reasons I said, it's too recent history, too painful to recount in this way. However, I think Steve Reich's recent piece is a good way to memorialise this tragic event and it's victims. It's similar to tradition, eg. Schoenberg's _Survivor in Warsaw _piece as mentioned above. Or even Martinu's _Memorial to Lidice_. I am okay with these, as with contemporary things like this (another is John Adams' _Transmigration of Souls_, another work about 9/11, said to be one of his finest works to date).

I cannot find anything about that attempted musical on 9/11, I have no time to do a proper search. If anyone here remembers it, please post a link with credible information. An acquaintance mentioned this to me. I can only find small scale theatre productions with music that paid tribute to 9/11, no big extravaganzas as that was apparently planned to be.

The issue with censorship is that if the victims' families speak out against it happening, their word should be respected. The composer is free to ask them what they think, and if they think it's wrong to do that, then the composer should I think honour their wish. It's not set in law, it's about respect.

Re this -



MAuer said:


> I do agree that any opera dealing with recent historic events/individuals (the Holocaust, Idi Amin, etc.) should take the feelings of victims and their families into consideration. But again, it's not necessarily the subject matter but how it's treated that would make me decide whether or not something is in poor taste. BTW, _The Dairy of Anne Frank _is often performed at German opera houses. I think it's one of the ways in which German citizens are/have been facing up to and emotionally confronting their nation's Nazi past. Nothing disrespectful here toward Holocaust victims at all; rather remembering them and their sufferings.


I am puzzled why Germans need this to be done in musical form. Eg. Australian prisoners of war (POWs) were treated brutally by the Japanese in World War II. In recent decades, films and documentaries have been made about this by Australians. So Australians learned about this, often the war veterans who went through it did not talk about it, even to their families, the memories where too painful. Some of these films were shown in Japan, our former enemy (but now one of our biggest trading partners and source of tourism, etc.). Anyway, I saw footage of young Japanese people leaving the cinema after seeing this, and they were in shock, crying.

So I think a good film about these dark aspects of history is enough to educate people about what happened. I still see musicals or operas as a spin off, I am wary of the money spinning commercial aspects of this. Sorry, that's just how I see it. I don't see it as necessary. It's shocking enough to see original footage or accurate dramatisation of what happened, even I was shocked when I saw these films. Australian POWs where beheaded and garrotted. Not nice. I think music, song, dance just softens the reality.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Sid James said:


> The issue with censorship is that if the victims' families speak out against it happening, their word should be respected. The composer is free to ask them what they think, and if they think it's wrong to do that, then the composer should I think honour their wish. It's not set in law, it's about respect.


By "respected", I hope you mean "taken into consideration"; they shouldn't get a veto.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Polednice said:


> By "respected", I hope you mean "taken into consideration"; they shouldn't get a veto.


Well probably depends on the case. It's a case by case basis, depends on the subject and the type of production. Eg. I'd guess that since there have been many theatre productions about 9/11 - & also a few major films - that the families did not disagree about this. I also found some tributes done live in theatre, with music included, but I don't know if they're exactly musicals. They look more like plays with incidental music, which does not seem to be controversial.

On another topic, film, the recent Oscar winning movie _The King's Speech _was in the pipeline ages ago to make, as far back as the 1970's. But I heard someone on radio saying that they asked the Queen Mother then whether it was okay to make a play or film about her late husband, King George VI. She said it's not okay in her lifetime, her memories of his premature death, partly due to the stress of his job, was too painful for her to recount, etc. She wanted it put behind her in the past. The authors of the film honoured her wish and waited until after her death (& they waited very long as she lived past the age of 100). So that's what I'm saying, in this case they honoured her wish, it was out of respect (not law or her power of veto).


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Andre... I'm not certain that I'd be willing to suggest that there is any subject that is beyond the scope of art. Of course it all comes down to how the subject is dealt with. I am reminded of Theodor Adorno's famous quote: "There can be no poetry after Auschwitz." or "Writing poetry after Auschwitz is barbaric." But then we are confronted by the Romanian/Jewish/German poet, Paul Celan who not only dared to continue to write poetry... but actually wrote poetry about Auschwitz... and the resulting poem, _Death Fugue_, is one of the most powerful and moving poems of the second half of the 20th century:

Black milk of daybreak we drink it at sundown
we drink it at noon in the morning we drink it at night
we drink and we drink it
we dig a grave in the breezes there one lies unconfined
A man lives in the house he plays with the serpents he writes
he writes when dusk falls to Germany your golden hair Margarete
he writes it and steps out of doors and the stars are flashing he whistles his pack out
he whistles his Jews out in earth has them dig for a grave
he commands us strike up for the dance

Black milk of daybreak we drink you at night
we drink in the morning at noon we drink you at sundown
we drink and we drink you
A man lives in the house he plays with the serpents he writes
he writes when dusk falls to Germany your golden hair Margarete
your ashen hair Shulamith we dig a grave in the breezes there one lies unconfined.

He calls out jab deeper into the earth you lot you others sing now and play
he grabs at the iron in his belt he waves it his eyes are blue
jab deeper you lot with your spades you others play on for the dance

Black milk of daybreak we drink you at night
we drink you at noon in the morning we drink you at sundown
we drink you and we drink you
a man lives in the house your golden hair Margarete
your ashen hair Shulamith he plays with the serpents

He calls out more sweetly play death death is a master from Germany
he calls out more darkly now stroke your strings then as smoke you will rise into air
then a grave you will have in the clouds there one lies unconfined

Black milk of daybreak we drink you at night
we drink you at noon death is a master from Germany
we drink you at sundown and in the morning we drink and we drink you
death is a master from Germany his eyes are blue
he strikes you with leaden bullets his aim is true
a man lives in the house your golden hair Margarete
he sets his pack on to us he grants us a grave in the air
he plays with the serpents and daydreams death is a master from Germany
your golden hair Margarete
your ashen hair Shulamith

Trans. Michael Hamburger


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

^^Well stlukes I appreciate your input, but the topic is not, as I said a number of times, about just art, but particularly musicals or operas about things (esp. films) that are about certain sensitive subjects, eg. mass killing and serial killing, etc.

There was a reaction against art by a number of those in the arts after 1945, who had lived through the war and seen/experienced it. I'm not commenting on what Adorno said, esp. since I don't know the context of those quotes. I generally disagree with him on matters of music though (as did Schoenberg, he found him too dogmatic). The background of Adorno's ideology was a reaction against the Nazis using music to manipulate the masses, esp. music with strong emotional and nationalistic elements. He was guarding against distortion of art for propaganda.

Apart from that, I not against music dealing with these sorts of issues. I actually gravitate towards pieces of music about these histories, not only in classical but in other genres. Ultimately, however, the listener has to know the history in the first place. I know the history to a good deal of depth. I can hear the allusions composers are making to the situation. It's not hard for anyone, recordings today tend to have good liner notes about this, and there are good documentaries, etc.

However, in my mind, I am coming around to seeing that the nature of how these things are done is important.

These things are not totally off-bounds. Eg. Australian composer Richard Meale's opera _Voss_, explores issues of the defects of the colonialist view (based on Nobel Prize winning novel by Patrick White). That was from the 1980's. More recently, an opera dealing with difficult issues (violence against women), was done here by Richard Mills, called _The Love of the Nightingale_. But he set it in the past. Here, he discusses some issues with writing an opera about these potentially controversial things (and also generally how he did it) -






However, these are a far cry from things like doing _American Psycho _in this way, or _Schindler's List_. I know there are no firmly set boundaries of taste for absolutely everyone (eg. these things have to be examined on a case by case basis), but I would hazard a guess that Richard Mills would not rush to set these types of things to music. He would see it as in poor taste, judging from what he says here and also generally what I know of him.


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## Moira (Apr 1, 2012)

There was once upon a time, in a far off and distant time, a musical in Johannesburg about South Africa's famous serial poisoner, Daisy de Melker, who was one of the few (white) women ever hanged in South Africa. It was done in drag and was entitled "Daisy de Melker is well hung" and it took place in the very jail in which she was incarcerated for a time (now part of our Constitutional Court). It was a small scale musical, and it had a short run, and for some reason I was unable to attend. It ran to some critical acclaim at the time.

I also remember attending a play about Idi Amin which was a spoof type satire, but the review I did for it was obviously for print media and was not online and I now have no record of the review.

Not all musicals have to be ra-ra-ra. There is place for musical treatment of some very serious subjects. In fact we have just had a musical relating to our border/civil war. This is my review of that work http://www.artlink.co.za/news_article.htm?contentID=28337.

Again, great topic.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Very interesting review. Thanks for sharing.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

obwan said:


> Personally, I've always wondered why they havn't done an operatic porno, or at least an nc-17 version of some of the greatest operas. We need to bring in a wider audience, and the best way to do that is imho porno. Besides that I'd like to see more Horror, Sci-fi and mysteries broght to the stage.
> 
> I know this diverges from the question, but this is what popped in my head when I read the topic


_Hair - The Musical_ had heaps of on-stage nudity (but not sex, if I remember well), so I think that kind of thing has been happening for ages, since 1970's. As I said above, strong sex scenes have also been part of contemporary operas. I think with that, there seems to be very few boundaries now.

It seems that people here are arguing against any boundaries, or virtually any, because there are no universal boundaries. That is a shame because it is like building a house on sand, it is not a proper foundation for anything. I think there may well not be universal boundaries of taste for certain things, but there are I think regional and more local ones. What is acceptable in New York may not be acceptable in another part of the USA, or only borderline acceptable. There are a lot of factors at play here.



Moira said:


> ...
> Not all musicals have to be ra-ra-ra. There is place for musical treatment of some very serious subjects. In fact we have just had a musical relating to our border/civil war. This is my review of that work http://www.artlink.co.za/news_article.htm?contentID=28337.
> 
> ...


What you said in your review resonated with me a lot -

_"The tone is always respectful."_

So sounds like it is possible to do sensitive subjects like South African history, but with respect for those that lived through these things.


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## Moira (Apr 1, 2012)

PetrB said:


> Better a musical than an opera.
> 
> A cantata, maybe... yeah. a cantata would be good.


A cantata is a very suitable form for commemorating serious events. I loved the one South African composer Philip Miller did for the Truth and Reconciliation Commission revelations after the end of Apartheid in South Africa.

http://www.philipmiller.info/rewind-cantata

The review I did was published in print media so no online record.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

A second thought on this:

Simple enough, go to the root of what 'generates' a singing show, musical, operetta or opera.

The underlying principle of opera has a 'requirement:' 
Melos + Drama....
the story must have enough drama or depth of emotion that what seems necessary to render it transcends the limits of ordinary speech. The subject, it was thought, seem more suited to declamation and/or singing.

Any of a number of topics would fit that suite, but the urgency of that quality within the subject which makes it '_seem to want or need to sing_' vs. 'a play' is also very much within the skills of the librettist.

If a writer finds that dimension within a tale of politicians, everyday media celebs (Anna Nicole Smith), or the less than glamorous common folk, (La Boheme -- art student and seamstress living in poverty), and manages to imbue the libretto with that sort of emotional depth, then that meets the 'opera' requirement.
Kings and Queens? ~ political figures (Nixon in China)
Superficial Celebs? ~ Don Giovanni
Tragic Romance between other 'common folk' ? ~ Carmen

The subject, of course must have something going for it: it is the writer who has to find enough true drama in that subject, rendering that which makes or breaks 'suitable.'

[I wonder if the 'longing' for opera to stand still, 'Gods, Kings, etc.' is also a cry from the same sort who get ruffled when Mozart or Haendel are given contemporary costume and staging ~ that irony being contemporary costume and staging is exactly what those composer's operas got when they were new. Wasn't it Mozart who wanted to write about ordinary people, not Gods? 

deeper A good deal of that urgency can come from the librettist,

The acceptance of even a brilliant musical theater work is dependent on so much business and social machinery and a cultural mindset.

The rest is very much in the heads and hands of how the author(s) perceive it and completely in how they execute it.


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