# classical ignoramus seeking learned advice...



## benjamincharles (Sep 17, 2009)

I'm hoping someone out there might be able to educate me a bit... My fiancée and I love Mozart's Laudate Dominum and hoped to include it in our forthcoming civil wedding for my bride to walk in to. However, religious music is not allowed in a civil service. 

Can anyone tell me if the actual music was written for a religious purpose? If it wasn't and the words have simply been put to it, then we can still play an instrumental version should one exist. 

If, however, you are able to tell me that the music itself was indeed written for a religious purpose, could you possibly recommend some music, Mozart or otherwise, that you would regard as similar in it's gently uplifting beauty but without religious connotations?

Any help greatly appreciated.


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## david johnson (Jun 25, 2007)

'However, religious music is not allowed in a civil service.'

it's your wedding, do what you want. will anyone there know the language of the music? just call it mozart wedding music.
who the hell made that sorry rule?! 

dj


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## bassClef (Oct 29, 2006)

Quick Google serach reveals that the words are from Psalm 117, translated as something like:
1 Praise the Lord, all nations; praise him, all peoples.
2 Certain is his love and mercy for us, and the faithfulness of the Lord endures forever. 
So yes, it is pretty religious. But as DJ said, it's your wedding, you can surely have whatever you like!


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## benjamincharles (Sep 17, 2009)

Thanks for the input. Unfortunately the Church write the rulebook on civil weddings in the UK and the registrars require advanced notice of what you want to play so they can vet it. I've been at a wedding before where the registrar stopped the proceedings because an unplanned piece of music was played! So I'm not taking any risks.

If you guys are familiar with the piece of music I mean, could you maybe recommend a similar piece of non-religious Mozart, perhaps from one of his operas?


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## Yvon63 (Sep 17, 2009)

Hi ! BenjaminCharles
(with such a webname, are you a frenchy like me? ... as you can read)
Your story is amazing ! Never heard about such problem...
But you explain clearly you dont't have no choice.
So, here are 3 of the best opera arias (female singer) all over the times and the world(s?)
Sorry, I can't find direct links, go to "http://www.deezer.com" (or anywhere else !) and search with the words above.
You have to know, dear Ignoramus, that older classical recordings are not so good ; try to find a recent version among all those you will find (and the one your love and you will prefer)
1) Sure you WILL love one of the 3. 
2) Haendel is (was) an ENGLISH composer.
Pleased to help,
Yvon

Haendel/Serse/Act 1 /Ombra mai fu
Bellini/Norma /Casta diva
Catalani/ La Wally/ Eben ne andro


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## Yvon63 (Sep 17, 2009)

I forgot some comments :
Haendel Serse : Try to find Jennifer Larmore's version.
Casta diva : One use to play the tune AFTER the flute introduction (just 2 bars violins, then voice).
La Wally : try to find Cecilia Bartoli (and tell her i love her).
Welcome in the wonderful classical world !
Yvon (Again).


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## Yvon63 (Sep 17, 2009)

I also forgot most important comment :
You have to know that ALL operia arias are rather... sad or tragic (I think Laudamus te is sad too) that's why they have so low tempo and such emotion.
So, may be you'd better chose one of the two italian...
Yvon (end).


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## Artemis (Dec 8, 2007)

benjamincharles said:


> I'm hoping someone out there might be able to educate me a bit... My fiancée and I love Mozart's Laudate Dominum and hoped to include it in our forthcoming civil wedding for my bride to walk in to. However, religious music is not allowed in a civil service.
> 
> Can anyone tell me if the actual music was written for a religious purpose? If it wasn't and the words have simply been put to it, then we can still play an instrumental version should one exist.
> 
> ...


Several comments:

You don't need to be any kind of classical music expert to work out that Mozart's _Laudete Dominum_ is a piece of religious music. For an obvious starters, the name gives it away immediately: Laudate = praise; Dominum = God. It gives "O praise the Lord". The words come from the 117th Psalm.

If there was still any doubt on the subject, a simple Google search would provide all the information needed. It was written by W A Mozart in 1780 while he was still in the service of the Archbishop of Salzburg. Its alternative name is _Vesperae solemnes de confessore, KV 339, _and was written for an early evening service in the R.C.Church known as "Vespers".. 

I am not aware of any purely instrumental version of this work.

Per your request for advice on an alternative classical piece from an opera, I must say that I wouldn't want anything like that at my wedding unless it was very carefully chosen and I knew in advance that the guests would appreciate it. The particular examples which have been offered above are so common that I can easily imagine guests creased up in laughter in the civil equivalent of the "pews". This is "fat lady" stuff par excellence.

Even if you could gain approval to play Mozart's _Laudate Dominum_, I reckon it would still sound odd with some of the guests wondering what the heck it is. The word "naff" springs to mind to describe the look of bewilderment on the faces of any non-religious sorts among the guests.

If you like sacred music I am wondering why you didn't select a church wedding. I realise that some Ministers can be awkward about such things unless the couple are prepared to express at least some interest in religion, but I wouldn't have thought that it's not that difficult to say the right things to gain approval. 

I went to a civil wedding recently and the choice of music was some modern "musak" which I felt added nothing to the occasion. Hence, if yours has to be a civil wedding, you might consider having no music at all.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

If you're sure you want Mozart, you might like to consider the trio from _Cosi Fan Tutte_ ('Soave sia il vento'), of which I read somewhere a description of it as the most beautiful 3 minutes in opera. Well, there are a lot of contenders for that, but this is indeed particularly lovely. The fact that's it's famous oughtn't to detract from that, I think. The words are appropriate too:

"May the breeze be gentle,
And the waves be calm,
And may all the elements
Look kindly on
Their wishes."

Most people would be happy to endorse those sentiments towards a couple getting married. And speaking as a sometimes soppy old romantic myself: if you can't be soppy and romantic at your own wedding, when can you be?

You can hear it (and see it) exquisitely performed here:


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## benjamincharles (Sep 17, 2009)

*Thank you*

Thank you again for your help on this, especially Yvon and Elgarian. I'll listen to your suggestions and appreciate your time in making them. Cosi Fan Tutte has been mentioned to me by someone else this weekend so could well be an option.

As for Artemis, not quite sure that this particular brand of vitriol was entirely appropriate in response to someone who is planning the most joyful day of their life. It's that kind of over-intellectual snobbery that puts people off trying to learn about a new subject. I asked for help, not judgement and if you had nothing positive to add, it might have been better not to add anything.

But I hope all of you have a good week and continue to enjoy your music. I'll bow out here.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Wow, the UK does not allow religious-themed music at a civil ceremony? I'm not even religious and I find this bizarre.

I'd go with Mars from Holst's The Planets. No religious connotations there, and it makes for one hell of a civil wedding service.


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## bassClef (Oct 29, 2006)

... or how about O Fortuna just as the bride arrives ...


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

bassClef said:


> ... or how about O Fortuna just as the bride arrives ...


Hey, that works for me.


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## Artemis (Dec 8, 2007)

benjamincharles said:


> As for Artemis, not quite sure that this particular brand of vitriol was entirely appropriate in response to someone who is planning the most joyful day of their life. It's that kind of over-intellectual snobbery that puts people off trying to learn about a new subject. I asked for help, not judgement and if you had nothing positive to add, it might have been better not to add anything.


 I merely said that Mozart's _Laudate Dominum_ is self-evidently a religious piece of music, and that you might think twice before incorporating operatic music (as an alternative to religious music) into a civil wedding service because some people may find it odd. If you want to take offence over those two points, good luck to you.


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## Very Senior Member (Jul 16, 2009)

Artemis said:


> I merely said that Mozart's _Laudate Dominum_ is self-evidently a religious piece of music, and that you might think twice before incorporating operatic music (as an alternative to religious music) into a civil wedding service because some people may find it odd. If you want to take offence over those two points, good luck to you.


Just because the song has "Praise" and "God" as the only two words in its title doesn't make it a religious song, does it? On second thoughts maybe it does. Silly me. But you're still a snobbish Goddess. Be nice to newbies.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

My best guess would be Luci Care Luci Belle. It has a few great lyrics in Italian, is fairly simple, and definitely the lyrics seem to go with the occasion.


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## Cortision (Aug 4, 2009)

Artemis said:


> I realise that some Ministers can be awkward about such things unless the couple are prepared to express at least some interest in religion, but I wouldn't have thought that it's not that difficult to say the right things to gain approval.
> [/FONT]


I'm astonished that someone could suggest such a thing. If someone is religious or not is one thing - but to pretend to be religious just to get what you want at a wedding is the height of hypocrisy. Religious people have a reputation for hypocrisy but it seems some irreligious people are not far behind!


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Why even have music at a civil wedding? I would imagine these types of weddings are meant to avoid all of the pomp and circumstance of a traditional wedding...including the dramatic use of music to underpin the emotions of the moment.

If I were to ever get married, I'd want to do it at city hall. I'll just sign my name on the dotted line. 

Traditional wedding ceremonies are vapid exercises in excess and selfishness.


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## Artemis (Dec 8, 2007)

Tapkaara said:


> Why even have music at a civil wedding? I would imagine these types of weddings are meant to avoid all of the pomp and circumstance of a traditional wedding...including the dramatic use of music to underpin the emotions of the moment.
> 
> If I were to ever get married, I'd want to do it at city hall. I'll just sign my name on the dotted line.
> 
> Traditional wedding ceremonies are vapid exercises in excess and selfishness.


Which is exactly the same point I made in the last paragraph of my post #8.


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## Artemis (Dec 8, 2007)

Cortision said:


> I'm astonished that someone could suggest such a thing. If someone is religious or not is one thing - but to pretend to be religious just to get what you want at a wedding is the height of hypocrisy. Religious people have a reputation for hypocrisy but it seems some irreligious people are not far behind!


You're astonished? What Planet do you live on? I merely suggested that if the couple like religious music such as Mozart's _Laudate Dominum_, and such religious music is not allowed to be played at a UK civil wedding, then why not consider a church wedding instead.

My point was that one doesn't have to be a bible-thumping, born again, thrice-weekly attendee at a church in order to gain permission to get married in church. The position will vary from church to church, and all that may be involved is to express some interest in the Almighty, whilst acknowledging that you are not a regular attendee, in order to gain the necessary permission. It may be necessary to shop around a bit, but I wasn't suggesting that it's necessary or desirable to tell a whole pack of lies in order to secure the services of a Minister who is prepared to carry out a church wedding.

In any event I would guess that the vast majority of people who get married in church probably won't be seen in another until either a baptism, funeral or another wedding comes along. That's the truth of the situation in the UK at least. Are they are all hypocrites? I certainly don't believe so.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Tapkaara said:


> Why even have music at a civil wedding?


People who don't wish to have a specifically religious ceremony may still want to have _some_ kind of ceremony to mark such an important occasion; and there are as many different ways of doing that as there are people wanting to do it. Music is often a component of rituals like these - in purely practical terms it gives people something to focus on when they're nervous, and it helps to inspire them at a time when anxiety might otherwise interfere. Heck, I listen to music when I eat my lunch or wash the dishes, so I'd certainly want some music if_ I_ were getting married.


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## Artemis (Dec 8, 2007)

Elgarian said:


> People who don't wish to have a specifically religious ceremony may still want to have _some_ kind of ceremony to mark such an important occasion; and there are as many different ways of doing that as there are people wanting to do it. Music is often a component of rituals like these - in purely practical terms it gives people something to focus on when they're nervous, and it helps to inspire them at a time when anxiety might otherwise interfere. Heck, I listen to music when I eat my lunch or wash the dishes, so I'd certainly want some music if_ I_ were getting married.


Whilst true there are probably as many if not more people who don't want any musical accompaniment to their wedding (which is why they choose a civil wedding in the first place) but who may feel that some kind of music is de rigeur if only to meet the expectations of some of their guests. Of all the civil weddings I have attended there was music at only one of them, and it was played during the signing part of the ceremony. No-one seemed to pay any attention to it and it hardly added anything of value. As I mentioned previously, it was some ghastly piece of musak. On the other hand, a traditional church wedding greatly benefits from music, and within reason it is possible to get away with a wide variety of styles.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

Artemis said:


> ...you might think twice before incorporating operatic music (as an alternative to religious music) into a civil wedding service...


_Lots_ of people incorporate operatic music into their ceremonies, civil and otherwise.

There's this little number from Wagner's _Lohengrin_. It's a pretty familiar tune...


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Chi_town/Philly said:


> There's this little number from Wagner's _Lohengrin_. It's a pretty familiar tune...


That raised a smile, CTP. Nicely said.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Elgarian said:


> People who don't wish to have a specifically religious ceremony may still want to have _some_ kind of ceremony to mark such an important occasion; and there are as many different ways of doing that as there are people wanting to do it. Music is often a component of rituals like these - in purely practical terms it gives people something to focus on when they're nervous, and it helps to inspire them at a time when anxiety might otherwise interfere. Heck, I listen to music when I eat my lunch or wash the dishes, so I'd certainly want some music if_ I_ were getting married.


Fair enough!


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Tapkaara said:


> Fair enough!


It's all about missed opportunities, y'see. Here's your chance to get Sibelius in on the wedding business! Strike while the iron is hot! Imagine bride and groom ski-ing elegantly down the aisle, accompanied by the finale of the second symphony! (Guests dressed up to look like pine trees; and only _white_ confetti permitted, of course).


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Elgarian said:


> It's all about missed opportunities, y'see. Here's your chance to get Sibelius in on the wedding business! Strike while the iron is hot! Imagine bride and groom ski-ing elegantly down the aisle, accompanied by the finale of the second symphony! (Guests dressed up to look like pine trees; and only _white_ confetti permitted, of course).


FUNNY you mentioned guests dressed like pine trees...

At the Lahti festival, the first night, some patron of the orchestra was awarded some sort of award for his contributions to the conservation of the local nature. To present the award was the violinist/conductor Jaakko Kuusisto...DRESSED AS A PINE TREE! I guess there is more of this thing going around than I had thought!

Sibelius for weddings? I dunno. His music is too...eerie and dark for a wedding. But I's suppose in some cases, it's probably appropriate!!


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## Artemis (Dec 8, 2007)

Chi_town/Philly said:


> _Lots_ of people incorporate operatic music into their ceremonies, civil and otherwise.
> 
> There's this little number from Wagner's _Lohengrin_. It's a pretty familiar tune...


It's not a choral operatic piece though, is it? And that's what we're talking about, or at least I was.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Tapkaara said:


> To present the award was the violinist/conductor Jaakko Kuusisto...DRESSED AS A PINE TREE! I guess there is more of this thing going around than I had thought!


I think we're in at the beginning of something big: Sibelian imagery becoming a part of everyday life.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Don't excite me too much! I may just pittle myself...


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## Cortision (Aug 4, 2009)

Artemis said:


> You're astonished? What Planet do you live on?


I live on Neptune, same as you

[/QUOTE] It may be necessary to shop around a bit, but I wasn't suggesting that it's necessary or desirable to tell a whole pack of lies in order to secure the services of a Minister who is prepared to carry out a church wedding.

In any event I would guess that the vast majority of people who get married in church probably won't be seen in another until either a baptism, funeral or another wedding comes along. That's the truth of the situation in the UK at least. Are they are all hypocrites? I certainly don't believe so.[/QUOTE]

I wasn't suggesting that all those who are nominally religious but not regular attendees are hypocrites. However, what if the couple are atheists, for example? Any claims of interest in religion would then in my view be completely inappropriate. Your comments did seem to suggest, if not quite outright lies, then certainly some careful spin. If I misunderstood you, I apologise.


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## Artemis (Dec 8, 2007)

Cortision said:


> I wasn't suggesting that all those who are nominally religious but not regular attendees are hypocrites. However, what if the couple are atheists, for example? Any claims of interest in religion would then in my view be completely inappropriate. Your comments did seem to suggest, if not quite outright lies, then certainly some careful spin. If I misunderstood you, I apologise.


I would obviously accept that if a couple are atheists (or irreligious for whatever reason) then it would be wrong to seek a church wedding merely to be allowed to have religious music which would be denied in a civil ceremony. But I wasn't envisioning a situation anything like that, and this is not surprising because such a construction hardly makes any sense, as I don't know many atheists who like overtly religious music, like Mozart's _Laudate Dominum_, do you?

All I meant was that it shouldn't be difficult to find a Minister to conduct a wedding even if the couple may have only a lukewarm interest in religion, a situation which I would imagine covers the vast majority of people today at least in the UK. I wasn't suggesting the need for any kind of "outright lies" or "careful spin" in order to gain approval. You falsely jumped to that conclusion.

I know lots of people who have benefited from church services (weddings, baptisms, funerals) even though they are/were not regular attendees. I don't believe for one moment that any of them had a difficult time gaining approval except by being totally honest about their religious views. As regards the present couple, I have no more idea than you about their religious views or why they have sought a civil wedding. I'm not concerned with any of those specifics, and am talking about the situation generally.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Artemis said:


> I don't know many atheists who like overtly religious music, like Mozart's _Laudate Dominum_, do you?


Interesting question. I think immediately of one chap I knew - a scientist and confirmed atheist who had no interest in religion at all - who actually enjoyed attending formal church celebrations (like weddings) because he liked the music and enjoyed singing hymns. I don't know how unusual he was: most people I know don't seem very bothered one way or the other.

But don't quite a lot of us enjoy some religious music, even if we don't share the faith that inspired it? One doesn't have to be a Catholic, say, to enjoy _The Dream of Gerontius_, any more than one has to adore Louis XIV to enjoy Lully's operas. Is the issue of music at weddings any different to that? (It may be - I'm not stating a position, just floating a question.)


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## Artemis (Dec 8, 2007)

Artemis said:


> I don't know many atheists who like overtly religious music, like Mozart's _Laudate Dominum_, do you?
> 
> 
> Elgarian said:
> ...


I wouldn't mind betting that there is quite a strong positive correlation (across a large section of the population) between liking of religious music and one's religious fervour. As you are a scientist, I don't need to tell you that this doesn't mean a regimental conformity. I would guess that the chap you refer to may be rather an exceptional case, although I don't doubt that such people do exist.

I would guess that the rather more vague varieties of religious music (eg _Dream of Gerontius_) could be enjoyed by virtually anyone as it's hardly in-your-face religious material, whereas the hymn _Soul of My Saviour_ is not likely to be at the top of any atheist's musical chart.

Getting back to the main point of this thread, my only thought was that if the only way to have a wedding service which will allow religious music like Mozart's _Laudate Dominum_ then the fact that one may not be a fully fledged, all-singing-all-dancing church attendee needn't be a reason not to pursue this possibility further. I was not suggesting that an avowed atheist should compromise their principles by telling the Minister a whole load of porkies, as our friend from Neptune assumed.


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## Efraim (Jun 19, 2009)

I wonder if Mozart's or someone else's Requiem (Mass, oratorio, Stabat Mater, Haydn's purely instrumental "Seven Last Words", Liszt's piano piece "St. Francis of Assisi, the Sermon to the Birds in A Major" and so on) are admitted in a (_civil_) concert hall in the UK... I am flabbergasted. As far as I know this kind of limitation didn't exist even in the stupid and criminal communist countries, where otherwise religions were treated badly.


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## Artemis (Dec 8, 2007)

david johnson said:


> it's your wedding, do what you want. will anyone there know the language of the music? just call it mozart wedding music.
> who the hell made that sorry rule?!





Tapkaara said:


> Wow, the UK does not allow religious-themed music at a civil ceremony? I'm not even religious and I find this bizarre.





Efraim said:


> I wonder if Mozart's or someone else's Requiem (Mass, oratorio, Stabat Mater, Haydn's purely instrumental "Seven Last Words", Liszt's piano piece "St. Francis of Assisi, the Sermon to the Birds in A Major" and so on) are admitted in a (_civil_) concert hall in the UK... I am flabbergasted. As far as I know this kind of limitation didn't exist even in the stupid and criminal communist countries, where otherwise religions were treated badly.


 I trust that the comments below may be of some value in explaining the situation in the UK, at least as an offset to the kind of comments quoted above. They do not necessarily reflect my personal views.

As I understand it, the law in the UK concerning civil marriages states that no religious service shall be used at such a marriage. Thus the restriction applies not just to religious music but to all religious aspects, e.g. readings.

The reason for this restriction is to keep separate the distinction between civil and religious weddings. In the absence of such a restriction, the distinction between civil marriage and religious marriage would be blurred and the institution of religious marriage would be watered down. The end result could be confusion between the two, with the possibility of hybrid, quasi-religious, 'half-way house' wedding ceremonies developing which will be neither one thing or the other. The fear is that proper religious weddings might become marginalised and could conceivably eventually become otiose.

Those opposed to allowing religious aspects in civil weddings believe that it is right to maintain uniqueness and distinctiveness of religious marriage. They would argue that allowing incidental references to "god" or to a deity in a civil wedding presupposes a particular theological position and therefore it would become religious in nature. However, by definition, civil marriage is not religious. In addition they would argue too that allowing a piece of choral music which is religious in origin, or music which is instrumental only or where religious lyrics are dropped, could still conjure up religious connotations.

The argument runs that if potential civil partners either do not think the content of civil marriage ceremonies is 'religious' enough they have the option of conducting their wedding in a church, or if religious endorsement for a ceremony is sought then a religious marriage option should be selected.


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## Yvon63 (Sep 17, 2009)

Dear Benjamincharles (and fiancée),
Nothing to add to your perfect answer to Artemis... 
Be sure :
- Never seen anyone laughing while listening to Casta Diva or La Wally (and I'm more than 50 !)
- Most "ordinary" people never have heard these pieces in their life, at least one or 2 times, mostly in film soudtracks, and they surely keep a very emotional souvenir...
- The common characteristic of these arias (and some others, but not so many) is that they sublimate Woman (with a huge W), largerly over the words they use, through all times and all countries. 
Sorry for my english, have a wonderfurl wedding.
Yvon


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## Artemis (Dec 8, 2007)

Yvon63 said:


> Dear Benjamincharles (and fiancée),
> Nothing to add to your perfect answer to Artemis...
> Be sure :
> - Never seen anyone laughing while listening to Casta Diva or *La Wally* (and I'm more than 50 !)


Do you know what *"Wally" *means in English? It is a derogatory term referring to a useless, ineffectual person, or someone who is very intelligent in some areas but very stupid in others, such as clumsiness. Contrary to your suggestion, I can therefore easily imagine fits of giggles if the couple selected an aria from "La Wally", and this appeared in terms on the marriage service sheet. It's simply another example of how careful one has to be in selecting music that may sound "nice" in one context but which could have some embarrassing implications if played in another.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

In addition to the well-known passage from Wagner's _Lohengrin_ [in instrumental form- it actually _is_ a sung chorus in its original rendering] there was another passage of operatic music at _my_ wedding (albeit again an instrumental)- the orchestral rendering of the _Connais-tu le pays_ tune that comes in after the harp solo in the overture to Thomas' _Mignon_.

There was no formal "written program" for our wedding- so it was a nice diversion to have some of the attendees later say 'that was such a lovely tune-- what's it from?!'


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