# The most challenging piece you've ever listened to.



## PresenTense (May 7, 2016)

What was that piece that you had to listen to it several times to end up enjoying it?


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## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

When I think of challenging, I think of things like the coda to Chopin's 4th ballade. I'm still unable to follow the last passage before the ending chords, where you're supposed to hear it in groups of 3 and so on but I keep hearing it as groups of four. If I play it myself a little slower I can hear it properly, but I just can't make my brain switch my perception to triplets at those lightning speed tempos.


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## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

The Ring Cycle in it's entirety - a hugely demanding piece both lyrically and musically.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

A tie between Schoenberg's Violin and Piano Concertos.

Took a lot of effort on my part to finally hear the music.

At first I thought PetrB was nuts to recommend these pieces to me, which I bought solely on his recommendations as a virgin listener to both pieces.

Now I owe him eternal gratitude as the Piano Concerto is one of my favorite concertos, a hauntingly beautiful piece and the Violin Concerto, I like, if not actually love. The haunting opening of the Violin Concerto by the solo violin, gently accompanied by the strings in the background is going through my head right now!

In complex unfamiliar music, repetition is your friend.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

The Turangalîla-Symphonie is a large-scale piece of orchestral music by Olivier Messiaen (1908–92). 

My goodness, not very soon again.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Mahlers 6th symphony. Saw it performed live by Sinfonia of Leeds but had to watch the performance on You Tube first to get to know it!


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## rojaba (Nov 12, 2016)

Moses and Aaron by Schoenberg is not exactly easy listening


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

KRoad said:


> The Ring Cycle in it's entirety - a hugely demanding piece both lyrically and musically.


Agreed. Very time consuming as well, I would say it is labor intensive for the listener.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Hanns Eisler - Deutsche Sinfonie. I wanted to know what it was all about, and after several listens I think I did get it, and even enjoyed it in parts. But it is not exactly a piece I would listen to very often.


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

Shostakovich symphony no. 7 (Leningrad). Intense, brutal, yet a beautiful work of art and expression.


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## Totenfeier (Mar 11, 2016)

Stravinsky - Le Sacre du Printemps. And Disney most definitely _doesn't_ help.


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## PresenTense (May 7, 2016)

KRoad said:


> The Ring Cycle in it's entirety - a hugely demanding piece both lyrically and musically.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Any work more than 30 minutes can be challenging.


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2016)

Probably something by Xenakis.


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

Richard8655 said:


> Shostakovich symphony no. 7 (Leningrad). Intense, brutal, yet a beautiful work of art and expression.


Well, I gave it a listen recently and told myself "I am glad I listened to that so I never have to listen to it again despite all the raving everyone does about it." But now that this thread has forced me to think about it again, I note that I have subconsciously progressed to "Well I guess I'd better listen to that piece again to make sure I am glad I never have to listen to it again." :lol:

:tiphat:

Kind regards,

George


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

Totenfeier said:


> Stravinsky - Le Sacre du Printemps. And Disney most definitely _doesn't_ help.


Interesting. I loved it on first listen and have loved it ever since. I am curious, the first (only? how many?) time you heard it, did you know in advance some of its musical context, i.e. the purported riot it caused at its premiere and how revolutionary it was considered to be at the time? (That adds to its appreciate for me even though I love it when I [as much as I can] divorce it from all of those associations.)

:tiphat:

Kind regards,

George


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Schoenberg's Pierrot Lunaire. The first few times, it was disturbing and scary. After that...well, it was still disturbing and scary, but I somehow learned to enjoy that feeling. Schoenberg has turned me into a masochist! :lol:


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## Retyc (May 10, 2016)

Anything by Lachenmann... too pointillistic for me to connect to it intuitively... 
and Sorabji... which is kinda weird since I listen to denser and more "atonal" music pretty often...


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## Alydon (May 16, 2012)

The most challenging pieces of music I'll probably never get round to properly studying and absorbing, but a work that most definitely fits the category is Messiaen's Catalogue d'oiseaux. I admit I found this epic work a massive challenge but felt a weird nobility in it and an appreciation of the composers vision, but certainly not a bit of light listening.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

PresenTense said:


> What was that piece that you had to listen to it several times to end up enjoying it?


Bartok quartets. Six years this month I've been working on these beasts. I seem to favor no.1, especially the 3rd movt. And recently Scelsi's orchestral works. Didn't like this stuff for the past six months, but something clicked last weekend.


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

And eventually saw the sublime beauty in it - Boulez's 'Pli Selon Pli'

Still don't get it - La Monte Young's 'The Second Dream Of The High Tension Line Stepdown Transformer'


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## jailhouse (Sep 2, 2016)

Penderecki's Utrenja. I had to stop a few times because of the jump scares. Honestly this piece freaked me the **** out and basically gave me an anxiety attack.


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## Jos (Oct 14, 2013)

For me Bartok stringquartets too.

Bought them in my early 20s (Juilliard) and they still haven't "clicked"


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## Rhinotop (Jul 8, 2016)

Xenakis' La Lègende d'Eer. It scares me. It's disturbing.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I listen to music a little differently, I guess. The most challenging music for my ear/brain interface is tonal: late Romantic stuff, like Strauss' Metamorphosen, Schoenberg's Pelleas und Mellisande, Berg's Op. 1 Piano Sonata, and some of the Strauss Tone Poems…_because I'm listening tonally,_ trying to track the root movement intuitively, to try to get the tonality, and it's like shadow boxing, or chasing butterflies, or pissing in the wind...


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

I consider Roslavets some of the most challenging music I've listened to which I also like a lot.


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## Medtnaculus (May 13, 2015)

Probably Mosolov's sonatas. Still feel there's more to get out of them than I'm getting.


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## TwoPhotons (Feb 13, 2015)

Le marteau sans maître by Boulez. I give it a hummability rating of 1.4/10.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

Berg's Violin Concerto. I knew it was considered one of the best 20th century works (ranked 10th in TC most recommended modern works) so I tried it and didn't really like it. But I listened to it a couple more times and now I love it and listen to it just as much as other classics like the Brahms, Mendelssohn, Beethoven, and Tchaikovsky.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

PresenTense said:


> What was that piece that you had to listen to it several times to end up enjoying it?


Beethoven's final string quartets. Works of genius and I recommend listening to them as entire pieces rather than single movement. It makes more musical sense.


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## David OByrne (Dec 1, 2016)

You gotta love when people don't read the OP and just post away :lol:


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## Selby (Nov 17, 2012)

Rhinotop said:


> Xenakis' La Lègende d'Eer. It scares me. It's disturbing.


A favorite of mine. I once used it to prevent one of my children from falling asleep in the car. There is that sweet spot when your kids are young, when you are close to home, and you see them falling asleep in the back seat, and you know, you just know, that if they fall asleep, even for a moment, they will not be able to take a nap that afternoon, and then they will become demons.

So, in order to prevent this metamorphosis, I turned this piece on nearly full blast and urged them not to fall asleep. This was maybe not my best move. The piece has now become a part of our family lore.

Occasionally, when I am being unreasonable, my partner will start shouting, 'Listen to the Xenakis! Don't fall asleep! Listen to the Xenakis!'


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## Janspe (Nov 10, 2012)

Bartók's first sonata for piano and violin took me _ages_ to truly comprehend - such an uncompromisingly brutal and thorny piece! I don't know if it's the _most_ challenging piece I've learned to love but it's certainly a good contender for that title.


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## Rhinotop (Jul 8, 2016)

Selby said:


> A favorite of mine. I once used it to prevent one of my children from falling asleep in the car. There is that sweet spot when your kids are young, when you are close to home, and you see them falling asleep in the back seat, and you know, you just know, that if they fall asleep, even for a moment, they will not be able to take a nap that afternoon, and then they will become demons.
> 
> So, in order to prevent this metamorphosis, I turned this piece on nearly full blast and urged them not to fall asleep. This was maybe not my best move. The piece has now become a part of our family lore.
> 
> Occasionally, when I am being unreasonable, my partner will start shouting, 'Listen to the Xenakis! Don't fall asleep! Listen to the Xenakis!'


What a good way to keep them awake! Curious anecdote. Maybe I'll change my mind and listen to it until the end.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Tchaikov6 said:


> Berg's Violin Concerto. I knew it was considered one of the best 20th century works (ranked 10th in TC most recommended modern works) so I tried it and didn't really like it. But I listened to it a couple more times and now I love it and listen to it just as much as other classics like the Brahms, Mendelssohn, Beethoven, and Tchaikovsky.


I had essentially the identical reaction although I listened more than a couple of times before I enjoyed the work. Even though I generally understand the phenomenon of "learning" to like a work, I feel there's something almost magical about our ability to fall in love with a work we once hated. I simply am unable to hear Berg's concerto as I once did.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

David OByrne said:


> You gotta love when people don't read the OP and just post away :lol:


Reply like this always makes _me _smile.


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## Totenfeier (Mar 11, 2016)

Barelytenor said:


> Interesting. I loved it on first listen and have loved it ever since. I am curious, the first (only? how many?) time you heard it, did you know in advance some of its musical context, i.e. the purported riot it caused at its premiere and how revolutionary it was considered to be at the time? (That adds to its appreciate for me even though I love it when I [as much as I can] divorce it from all of those associations.)
> 
> :tiphat:
> 
> ...


Not at all; it is literally true that my first exposure to it was in the original _Fantasia_, as a child. Later, it was part of our listening in a music appreciation course. Only then did I read up on its programmatic content and its stormy reception. So my mind was thoroughly muddled when I first seriously listened. With a little judicious adding and subtracting, it began to take form in my head.


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## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

The first time I heard Shostakovich's Symphony No. 14, I didn't like it at all. Then I saw it in concert and I was surprised that my friend who accompanied me (who doesn't have the classical fandom that I do and mainly goes for more "popular" pieces) said that he really enjoyed the symphony. I had a new appreciation for it then and now I really love it and it's one of my favorite Shostakovich symphonies. I consider it highly underrated.

Most of Scriabin's piano sonatas I really had to listen several times before I noticed the little details that made me love them.


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## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

David OByrne said:


> You gotta love when people don't read the OP and just post away :lol:


Do you mean me? I did read the op, but I also read the title of the thread and to me the concept of challenging has little if anything to do with pieces that I have listened to several times before enjoying them. Usually that sort of thing would be a question of unfamiliar style or idiom, not a genuinely difficult piece.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

David OByrne said:


> You gotta love when people don't read the OP and just post away :lol:


That actually happens a lot. Sometimes the thread title and author's first post are quite different in intent.


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

Every post-Beethoven symphony is challenging to me. They all sound "too much" for me, failing attempts to sound bigger then life and to create something grand. 

I tried, Schubert,Mendelssohn, Schumann, Brahms, Bruckner, Berlioz, Mahler....all very challenging to me. Listening to atonal chamber music costs me far less effort for that matter.

I think Liszt understood well and made his symphonic work shorter, very wise man! 

The only post Beethoven symphonies that get to me are Shostakovich. They have enough transparency to breathe.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Three: The Ives Concord Piano Sonata; the Schoenberg Piano Concerto and the Schoenberg Violin Concerto.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

From years back, it was the Brahms Third. It eventually became, and still is, my overall favorite symphony. The Sibelius Fourth went through a similar transformation. Along with the Sixth, it is my preferred symphonic piece of his.


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

In what way? If you mean, "the most challenging" as in, it rapidly floored me and I had to flee for my life, then probably something from the Austro-German school of 20th century modernism. Most likely one of Schoenberg, Webern or Henze's friskier works. Apologies, I know a lot of people love it and I'm glad you do but it just isn't for me.

If you mean, "the most challenging" as in, a piece I love but really had to work hard at to fully appreciate, then probably Mahler's 6th symphony. The 7th I utterly loved the first time I ever heard it, an amazing experience, but it took me much, much longer to appreciate that the 6th is very nearly as good and so still sublime.


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

And no giving the Austro-Germans more time as I did the Mahler 6th wouldn't work. The latter enticed me slowly in and made me concentrate. The former went for me with a bat. I'm sure everyone has a form of "classical" music that makes them feel this way.


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## Omicron9 (Oct 13, 2016)

Ferneyhough string quartets. I love them, but they are very challenging listening for me, in that they really demand my attention. It's not background music. Super complex, but I find them beautiful and highly original.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

The Turangalîla-Symphonie by Olivier Messiaen still my most challenging concert .


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Berg Chamber Concerto for 13 Instruments. It wasn't until this recording arrived that I understood it: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71K8dEopknL._SX522_.jpg


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

Carter _Double Concerto for Piano and Harpsichord_


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

Mozart's symphonies: I've found them very difficult to get through without really wanting to turn them off and put on something more interesting.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Stravinsky's Sacre du printemps. Up to then (around 1987) my classical music listening had consisted of classical and romantic era works with the occasional baroque thrown in. The sacre was my first venture into 20th century music and was a tough nut to crack. But I'm glad I persisted. After that, many other 20th century composers followed without problem.


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## ST4 (Oct 27, 2016)

Mozart has actually been a huge challenge for me and still is. 

I loved the Requiem but more recently several of the Piano Concertos and Wind Serenades have swayed be but I'm still far from success with him.


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## manyene (Feb 7, 2015)

Tallisman said:


> Mozart's symphonies: I've found them very difficult to get through without really wanting to turn them off and put on something more interesting.


Try the last movement of the Jupiter symphony


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

manyene said:


> Try the last movement of the Jupiter symphony


There are some I find somewhat entertaining. The Prague for me is a highlight. I'll try again with the Jupiter


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## Omicron9 (Oct 13, 2016)

Tallisman said:


> Mozart's symphonies: I've found them very difficult to get through without really wanting to turn them off and put on something more interesting.


As much as I totally agree with you (and thought you should receive some sort of cash bonus on-the-spot for your post), I do enjoy 40. There are actual bass lines in it!


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Tallisman said:


> Mozart's symphonies: I've found them very difficult to get through without really wanting to turn them off and put on something more interesting.





ST4 said:


> Mozart has actually been a huge challenge for me and still is.
> 
> I loved the Requiem but more recently several of the Piano Concertos and Wind Serenades have swayed be but I'm still far from success with him.


I have trouble taking this seriously. Mozart can sometimes pall to the 20th/21st century ear, most commonly after extended playing, but there's nothing challenging about listening to his music. It's hardly something that requires concentrated effort to enjoy. 
I've found that people who actually write music, as you have said you do ST4, tend to find more in Mozart than the general listener. Those Wind Serenades and other Serenades of wind/strings are models of colourful and rather ingenious instrumentation. There's a lot to be had from Mozart.

If someone is actually implying that they think they have more sophisticated tastes than what Mozart can offer - as Tallisman implied, though it may have been a jape - I would be inclined to think the problem is actually theirs in failing to see beyond the surface.


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## ST4 (Oct 27, 2016)

eugeneonagain said:


> I have trouble taking this seriously.


Your problem, not mine just like Mozart is my problem, not yours but at least I am actively trying.

Good day sir :tiphat:


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## ST4 (Oct 27, 2016)

eugeneonagain said:


> If someone is actually implying that they think they have more sophisticated tastes than what Mozart can offer


No, it's more like a wall in front of the listener, blocking him from connecting to/with the music in other words failing to get "into" it. The unfortunate situation of not being able to get anything from the music, hence feeling isolated from folks such as yourself who fail to see this, hence taking me as a joke. Fine for you of course, but I am still trying, as I've mentioned at least 8 times since returning to this forum. :tiphat:


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

ST4 said:


> No, it's more like a wall in front of the listener, blocking him from connecting to/with the music in other words failing to get "into" it. The unfortunate situation of not being able to get anything from the music, hence feeling isolated from folks such as yourself who fail to see this, hence taking me as a joke. Fine for you of course, but I am still trying, as I've mentioned at least 8 times since returning to this forum. :tiphat:


No, I am addressing the idea that Mozart is a technical 'challenge'. This is quite different from Mozart being not to one's tastes. I'm afraid I simply don't believe you when you claim not to 'get it'. What is there to 'get'? Mozart was of the era when clarity (of thought/expression/structure) was the overriding ideal of the artistic world. It is what it is.

I don't much buy into this constant harping on from two sides of the music listening spectrum (which exists for no good reason I can think of except inept listening) where people claim to be handicapped in one direction or the other and then build up extravagant reasons for it: 'tonality this', 'atonality that' and then some pseudo-philosophical, semi-religious drivel to explain it. A musician especially ought to know better.


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## ST4 (Oct 27, 2016)

It's no different from having two people that like different bands of the same genre but yet, can't "get into" each other's favorite bands, there are a lot of reasons that make this conclusion but who knows, maybe one day one of them will start liking it, who knows?


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## ST4 (Oct 27, 2016)

Think about it this way, you likely will not "get" all music from a genre you like, even if the language is familiar. Sometimes there is a wall in front of you that needs to be moved before you realize that you're not being short-changed :tiphat:


(again, you should be aware there are several Mozart works I do like. And I actually listened to Mozart's 20th piano concerto this morning)


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## ST4 (Oct 27, 2016)

Also think about this, what a person likes about Mozart for instance they might not find in Beethoven but instead find in Webern (harmonic resources/timbral spacing)

The classical community seem to pile so much stuff on itself that isn't ultimately that similar, the difference between the Renaissance and the Baroque in itself is astounding but yet, there are major connections between some Renaissance composers and contemporary composers, but in different musical languages.

There is more to music than just "this is in a major key and so is this other one too, therefore you will like the other one because it is in a major key!"


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

ST4 said:


> Also think about this, what a person likes about Mozart for instance they might not find in Beethoven but instead find in Webern (harmonic resources/timbral spacing)
> 
> The classical community seem to pile so much stuff on itself that isn't ultimately that similar, the difference between the Renaissance and the Baroque in itself is astounding but yet, there are major connections between some Renaissance composers and contemporary composers, but in different musical languages.
> 
> There is more to music than just "this is in a major key and so is this other one too, therefore you will like the other one because it is in a major key!"


These are issues that don't trouble me. I'm not expecting to find the same things in different composers or eras, which might explain why I'm not troubled. I'm also not perpetually looking for connections, though I know nothing arises in a vacuum and influence, and some structural determination, is everywhere.

When I listen to 20th and 21st century works I try not to think in comparative terms and the same goes for listening to earlier work.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

The challenge for me tends to come between enjoying and understanding, not between first exposure and enjoying. I thought the slow movement of Prokofiev's Seventh Piano Sonata was magical and disturbing the first time I heard it. It took one particularly beautiful performance by a friend for me to conclude that a single 16th note at the end of measure 90 was the hinge on which the structure and its effect turned. It took a couple of years after that to explain to my satisfaction why and how this is so. That's the way it usually works for me. I tend to like the works I will later enjoy on first hearing, and then the challenge begins. Prokofiev's Eighth Piano Sonatas is one of my favorite works, I've known it for years, but I still don't understand it. I have the keys, I just can't figure out how the lock works.


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## mathisdermaler (Mar 29, 2017)

Stockhausen, I thought he wrote non-music... I love him now


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