# Comparing Furtwangler's Beethoven Ninths



## blondheim (Jul 6, 2020)

I have been listening to the Ninth a lot recently and would like to invest in a Furtwangler Ninth. I would love someone familiar with them to talk about the differences. Broad or specific, I don't mind. The more detail the merrier as far as I'm concerned. Feel free to include timestamps even.

There are just so many of them.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Commenting because I'm curious what people say. The one I'm looking at is the Bayreuth 9th on EMI/GROC. I'm not a Furtwängler guy but I feel like I need one of his 9ths in my collection.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

My guess is the majority of people will say the '54 Philharmonia because it has the best sound and the best playing. I have not heard all of it but it is indeed excellent, a great way to hear his tremendous interpretation if you're turned off by the flubs in his two other famous ones. However, my overall favorite is the '52 Bayreuth. I may be biased because it was the recording that opened my eyes to Furtwängler, but the palpable sense of spiritual connection and passion simply brings me to tears. IMO it is truly a great human document. The '42 is also an incredible document but it's not one I return to simply because it is so unique. It is the horror of the Holocaust sublimated into sonics; tortured, psychotic, screaming mayhem. It's an insanely uncomfortable listening experience and it's the '52 I return to because it is more life-affirming. But all of them are worth a listen.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Hi Blondheim!

I am most fond of the 1942 recording because of the unmatched intensity of its finale. Furtwängler believed that in the middle of the war and under Nazi regime the German people have found themselves in the most desperate situation. This indeed can be felt in this recording, as Beethoven's symphony becomes a messenger of the urgency. The most energetic interpretation of one of the most energetic symphonies.






At the same time not a dish one wishes to consume too much.

The singing is also great in this interpretation. I prefer it to the 1950s recordings.

For a more relaxed, reverent version, full of great timings, I recommend Weingartner's from 1935.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

The 1942 is my favorite orchestral recording of all time. All the extremes of emotion of the work are fully brought out in a way that I have never heard and never expect to hear again. I have been a performer myself for several decades. There are times when you stop worrying about the score markings and simply immerse yourself in the emotions of the work, and the result is a revelation rather than a mere performance. That is this performance in a nutshell. The sound is not great, but it is much clearer than a lot of recordings you get from the time period. Tahra did the best transfer, but the Music & Arts is easier to find.










Next is the 1951 Bayreuth. Make sure you get the Orfeo release as opposed to the EMI, which is not only less well transferred but includes fragments of rehearsals rather than the actual performance. This is less intense than the 1942 but has many transcendent, inspired moments, particularly in the finale. The sound is more present and clear than 1942, though the balances are not great and the choir is very distant. There are many who feel this is a more "balanced" view of the work than the intense 1942. It depends what you are looking for.










Next is what I call the "forgotten 9th," 1953 Vienna. You never hear about this version for some odd reason. DG did not even include it in their otherwise superb complete Furtwangler edition. It has arguably the best combination of sound and performance for any Furtwangler 9th as it is better recorded than earlier versions and more alert than the 1954 Lucerne. And the quartet of soloists is superb. Even finding it on Amazon is not easy. I had to search for "Furtwangler" and "Vienna." I linked the YouTube upload down below.










Lastly, for me, is the 1954 Lucerne. It is his best recorded 9th and favored for many for that reason. If you have never heard Furtwangler in this work, you will hear much of his personal stamp here that made his earlier versions so special, in particular the beautiful phrasing and emotions of the finale. The only reason it does not rank higher for me is that it is a bit tired sounding, which is no surprise given that he was a mere three months away from death. The interpretation is there, but I miss the earlier intensity. Still a great recording though, just not the one I turn to most often. Audite has the best transfer.










Here is the 1953 Vienna:


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## blondheim (Jul 6, 2020)

That response is amazing. Much appreciated, thank you. I have heard there are two 1942 performances, one actually on Hitler's Birthday and one before. Both were for his birthday celebration though, I believe. Which 1942 were you referring to? And if there are differences, why do you prefer one?


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

blondheim said:


> That response is amazing. Much appreciated, thank you. I have heard there are two 1942 performances, one actually on Hitler's Birthday and one before. Both were for his birthday celebration though, I believe. Which 1942 were you referring to? And if there are differences, why do you prefer one?


Oh, definitely the one before his birthday, on March 22.

The April one has had some limited circulation but sounds terrible and does not hold together nearly as well.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

Tough for me to talk about this without my notes:


1951 in Salzburg is a disappointment.
1953 in Vienna is really well-brought but it still doesn't enough for me, compared to other performances.
1951 in Bayreuth is the best combination of conducting, playing and sound quality in my opinion. Preferrable to get the latest Warner remaster as it fixes the noise of the finale present in GROTC or Naxos. "Original" Orfeo is definetely not my choice.
1954 Lucerne is a great performance. I turned towards 1951 Bayreuth because I was disappointed with the last listen I paid to this recording on the Andromeda CD. I could appreciate this better in a new listening session.
1942 in Berlin still thrills me. It's a timpani fest. Could be the best No.9 assembled but I'm really into a Klemperer imprint.


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## blondheim (Jul 6, 2020)

I have always admired Szell's. The first set I ever had was Bernstein's New York cycle, but I lost it in a move. I have the complete DG Jochum and Kubelik, so I have each of theirs. I listen to Szell's the most often.

I keep trying to find one that I prefer to it. I figured I should look to Furtwangler. Although I love Klemperer, so I really should check out his set. Where is the Big Klemperer Box?!

I saw that Aaron Z. Snyder remastered the one recording of the March 22/24 performance 1942. I really like his remasters. I wish I could find it somewhere online to compare with the one I had heard before, I think it was Opus Kura. Before I buy it outright.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

I go with the 1942 recording. The sound technology is antiquated if that's a problem. Not just the greatest Furtwangler recordings of Beethoven 9th, but one of the greatest one's ever. Very intense.

My favorite Beethoven 9 is by Eugene Ormandy, the Philadelphia Orchestra, the Mormon Tabernacle Choir and friends; it's the antithesis of Furtwangler's wartime recording; a very lyrical and pleasant Ninth.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

blondheim said:


> I have always admire Szell's. The first set I ever had was Bernstein's New York cycle, but I lost it in a move. I have the complete DG Jochum and Kubelik, so I have each of theirs. I listen to Szell's the most often.
> I keep trying to find one that I prefer to it.


Szell is good, so is Toscanini, but Reiner is the best I've ever heard....really magical, builds to a tremendous finale...


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## bluto32 (Apr 25, 2015)

blondheim said:


> I have always admired Szell's. The first set I ever had was Bernstein's New York cycle, but I lost it in a move. I have the complete DG Jochum and Kubelik, so I have each of theirs. I listen to Szell's the most often.
> 
> I keep trying to find one that I prefer to it. I figured I should look to Furtwangler. Although I love Klemperer, so I really should check out his set. Where is the Big Klemperer Box?!
> 
> I saw that Aaron Z. Snyder remastered the one recording of the March 22/24 performance 1942. I really like his remasters. I wish I could find it somewhere online to compare with the one I had heard before, I think it was Opus Kura. Before I buy it outright.


The Snyder remastering (latest M&A release of March 1942, with blue & white cover in Brahmsianhorn's post above) is available on Spotify. You can listen to it on their web player with a free account here:




It has had most of the worst coughs and squeaking of chairs removed, and sounds quite reasonable given the poor quality of the original recording.

The April 1942 recording was taped live off German radio and is just about unlistenable. It's really hard on the ears due to extreme noise congestion/clipping, and probably isn't too good for your hifi speakers either... You can find it easily on YouTube and it's also on Spotify:




It's still available on the Archipel record label (they changed the cover compared with the one on Spotify) but I really wouldn't bother.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

blondheim said:


> I keep trying to find one that I prefer to it. I figured I should look to Furtwangler. Although I love Klemperer, so I really should check out his set. Where is the Big Klemperer Box?!


I'm also looking forward to that big Klemperer box. I would love to. But I've talked more deeply about the Klemperer Beethoven I really recommend in *this thread.* Keep reading. I wouldn't go for the studio set, but almost all live recordings are out of print on CD (the Memories Reverence main seller has temporarily ceased activity due to covid19). DM me if you are interested in listening to the performances on spotify or getting links to buy the remaining cds of some performances.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Heck148 said:


> Szell is good, so is Toscanini, but Reiner is the best I've ever heard....really magical, builds to a tremendous finale...


I downloaded the Reiner. Everything was amazing. The choral part was the best I've heard by far.


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## blondheim (Jul 6, 2020)

I love the way the four soloists cut off at _exactly_ the same time right before the final coda on Szell's. It might be my favorite moment of the entire disc.

I definitely plan on getting one of these Furtwanglers. I am going to listen to them a few times to see which performance is my favorite. I did listen to one of the 1942's on Youtube. It was good. I am hoping to compare it to the remaster. I will definitely be listening to that on Spotify. It's just annoying that free Spotify only allows you to shuffle the tracks.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

blondheim said:


> It's just annoying that free Spotify only allows you to shuffle the tracks.


Are you listening on a personal computer? My phone requires shuffling, but on my computer, I can play anything.


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## blondheim (Jul 6, 2020)

I was not but I will do so. I found the desktop application heavily slowed my not-quite-the-newest personal computer so I figured nbd, since I use the mobile app more anyway, for showers and the car, etc. but now I have a reason to give it another try. Thanks for the heads-up. I feel like I did know that, deep in the recesses of my memory, but would never have recalled it without that reminder.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Phil loves classical said:


> I downloaded the Reiner. Everything was amazing. The choral part was the best I've heard by far.


Yes, amazing is right. Great chorus...
Orchestral execution is beyond compare...as always with Reiner, you get the great flow, big drama, with incredible clarity and detail....the great tutti eruptions in the finale are quite special.


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## Holden4th (Jul 14, 2017)

Heck148 said:


> Yes, amazing is right. Great chorus...
> Orchestral execution is beyond compare...as always with Reiner, you get the great flow, big drama, with incredible clarity and detail....the great tutti eruptions in the finale are quite special.


I've never given the Reiner a really serious listen even though I have the CD. These comments have piqued my interest.

EDIT:

The first movement started well and I thought that this could be very good. However, to me it meandered somewhat.

The Scherzo was exciting and very well played. It almost matched the best version from Leibowitz. The Adagio was interesting in that it brought out aspects that I hadn't heard before. I'm not sure if the tempo is right.

The finale movement is a bit of a disappointment. While the choral work is good the sound is veiled and this is a criticism I could make of most recordings. The orchestras of Beethoven's time would have made the choristers much clearer. The soloists are good but not outstanding.

For me, the best stereo recording of this work comes from a fellow Hungarian conductor - Fricsay. Great orchestra, top soloists and outstanding conducting. My also ran recording is Rene Leibowitz. The first three movements are brilliant and so is the orchestral opening of the fourth. Then it all falls over when the bass, Weber, utters 'O Freunde'. Such a shame.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

I found the Reiner to be good and shelf worthy along with a couple of dozen others I own, but not on the top tier.

These are what I list as essential recordings of the 9th. I include Reiner under "Further listening." Fricsay is my top studio version.

Wilhelm Furtwängler (3/22/42) (Tahra, Music & Arts, Pristine, Archipel, Andromeda)
Wilhelm Furtwängler (7/29/51) (Tahra, Orfeo, EMI)
Wilhelm Furtwängler (8/22/54) (Audite, Tahra, Pristine, Music & Arts, Andromeda)
Otto Klemperer (1961) (Testament BBC)
Otto Klemperer (1957) (Testament)
Ferenc Fricsay (DG)
Leonard Bernstein (1979) (DG)
Karl Böhm (1972) (DG)
Herbert von Karajan (1976) (DG)
Leonard Bernstein (1989) (DG)
Georg Solti (1972) (Decca)

Further listening: Wilhelm Furtwängler (5/31/53) (DG), Andre Cluytens (EMI, Royal Classics), Bruno Walter (1955) (Orfeo), Arturo Toscanini (1938) (Music & Arts, ATRA), Hermann Abendroth (12/31/50, RSOB) (Tahra, Urania), Carl Schuricht (1959) (Testament), Herbert von Karajan (1962) (DG), Felix Weingartner (1935) (Opus, Naxos, Avid), Rafael Kubelik (Orfeo), Rafael Kubelik (DG), Fritz Reiner (RCA), Willem Mengelberg (Philips, NM Classics, Classica d'Oro), Fritz Busch (DG, Guild, Arlecchino), Hans Schmidt-Isserstedt (Decca), Otto Klemperer (1957) (EMI), Eugen Jochum (Philips), Erich Leinsdorf (RCA), Charles Munch (RCA, EMI Great Conductors), Christoph von Dohnanyi (Telarc), Leopold Stokowski (1967) (Decca), Charles Mackerras (EMI, Classics for Pleasure), John Eliot Gardiner (DG Archiv)


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## bluto32 (Apr 25, 2015)

blondheim said:


> I was not but I will do so. I found the desktop application heavily slowed my not-quite-the-newest personal computer so I figured nbd, since I use the mobile app more anyway, for showers and the car, etc. but now I have a reason to give it another try. Thanks for the heads-up. I feel like I did know that, deep in the recesses of my memory, but would never have recalled it without that reminder.


You can try Spotify for free without even downloading anything by using their "web player" which works within most web browsers. There is no automatic shuffling of tracks: you can listen to whatever you want, in whatever order you like, but have to put up with adverts between some tracks every so often.


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## blondheim (Jul 6, 2020)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I found the Reiner to be good and shelf worthy along with a couple of dozen others I own, but not on the top tier.
> 
> These are what I list as essential recordings of the 9th. I include Reiner under "Further listening." Fricsay is my top studio version.
> 
> ...


I am curious as to why Szell didn't make this list. What don't you like very much about that recording?


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

blondheim said:


> I am curious as to why Szell didn't make this list. What don't you like very much about that recording?


I would have to relisten to remember exactly, but usually with Szell it is due to an overemphasis on simple precision and accuracy that misses the big picture in a work like the 9th, the exact opposite of what I get from Furtwangler.


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## blondheim (Jul 6, 2020)

So I listened to Fricsay and I have to say it is up there with Szell for me. A great recording I will definitely be getting my hands on.

Szell's precision and accuracy leans his Beethoven more on the classical side, which is what Beethoven would have wanted I think.

I have so far listened to the 1942 Furtwangler and the 1951. I am going to tackle the next two soon, but I fear I shall probably have to cycle through them again in order to really know. It's the time of year for it at least.


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