# What composer was the best pianist?



## Hanspwnz (Sep 1, 2012)

*Which composer was the best pianist?*

I've been circling these forums for a while, and while I know a lot about classical music, I don't know nearly as much as many of you, which brings me to my question: with the knowledge we have about ALL the different composers so far, is it possible to make a realistic guess on who was the "best" pianist? (Speaking here of all aspects of skill, including improvisation...)

I've heard Mozart to be extraordinary and pretty 'complete' as a pianist, Beethoven to be a good improviser and Bach too. Chopin would play with great feeling and Liszt was just amazing. But how much do we really know about their skill? And are there any matching pianists today?


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Hanspwnz said:


> I've been circling these forums for a while, and while I know a lot about classical music, I don't know nearly as much as many of you, which brings me to my question: with the knowledge we have about ALL the different composers so far, is it possible to make a realistic guess on who was the "best" pianist? (Speaking here of all aspects of skill, including improvisation...)
> 
> I've heard Mozart to be extraordinary and pretty 'complete' as a pianist, Beethoven to be a good improviser and Bach too. Chopin would play with great feeling and Liszt was just amazing. But how much do we really know about their skill? And are there any matching pianists today?


In reasonably modern times Rachmaninoff,Prokofiev and Percy Grainger---we can hear recordings they made.


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## Carpenoctem (May 15, 2012)

Brahms was also a magnificent pianist. He didn't like practicing for his concerts but still played very good. There is a recording of him playing the piano on youtube even though the quality is quite bad.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

1. Liszt, 2. JS Bach 3. Rachmaninov, 4. Chopin, 5. Britten, 6. Debussy, 7. Mozart 8. Scriabin, 9. Poulenc, 10. Clementi

Honorable mentions: Gould; Gulda.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Gould and Gulda composed? I had no idea. Solo piano pieces, or did they go beyond that?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Beethoven was probably the foremost pianist in Vienna at the end of the 18th century and for a few years after, although there were challengers. As noted, his improvisational skill was extraordinary. From a 1799 review of his "piano duel" with Wölffl:

"[Beethoven] shows himself to best advantage in free improvisation. And here the lightness and at the same time firmness in the sequence of his ideas is really quite extraordinary. B. instantly varies every theme, and not only in its figures. Since the death of Mozart who will always remain the _non plus ultra _in this, I have never found this kind of pleasure to the degree with which B. provides it."

BTW the author gives the contest, narrowly, to Wölffl based on his counts of the factions present. Maybe because of this: "That Wölffl's unassuming and pleasing behavior gains over Beethoven with his sometimes haughty manner is very natural..."


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

@KenOC your quote is basically stating that Mozart was better than Beethoven.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Anton Rubinstein, a not so often mentioned name, was also highly regarded even by Liszt.


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## Hanspwnz (Sep 1, 2012)

emiellucifuge said:


> @KenOC your quote is basically stating that Mozart was better than Beethoven.


In improvisation, yes... obviously. :O


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

1. Alkan 2. Liszt

Of those recent enough to have made presentable recordings, Rachmaninoff (piano rolls don't count). Several significant composers were also 'concert grade' pianists, including Anton Rubinstein, Prokofieff and Grainger.


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## Renaissance (Jul 10, 2012)

Hanspwnz said:


> In improvisation, yes... obviously. :O


You say that Mozart was a better improviser than Beethoven ? :O How is that ? I can't even compare the best Mozart's sonatas with, let's say Pathetica, one of the first by Beethoven's. Yes I know, it is only my opinion. But Beethoven piano sonatas certainly requires higher pianistic skill, and structurally they are way more complex.

ON thread : I think Liszt was the most skilled pianist. And then, maybe Rachmaninoff. I would put Beethoven on the 3rd place.


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## Carpenoctem (May 15, 2012)

Renaissance said:


> You say that Mozart was a better improviser than Beethoven ? :O How is that ? I can't even compare the best Mozart's sonatas with, let's say Pathetica, one of the first by Beethoven's. Yes I know, it is only my opinion. But Beethoven piano sonatas certainly requires higher pianistic skill, and structurally they are way more complex.


Well, Mozart mostly wrote them for piano students, but I still think they are lovely. But Beethoven was the master of solo piano music, What Mozart achieved with Piano Concertos, Beethoven did with his genius sonatas.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Renaissance said:


> You say that Mozart was a better improviser than Beethoven ? :O How is that ? I can't even compare the best Mozart's sonatas with, let's say Pathetica, one of the first by Beethoven's.


Not sure what that has to do with improvisational skills. Anyway, Beethoven had an opinion of Mozart's playing style, which he found "choppy." That sounds very strange to us today and maybe suggests that Mozart played his own works differently from what we're used to hearing. By 1800 CPE Bach's works were being described as "choppy," so perhaps there was some influence on Mozart from that quarter.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Several significant composers were also 'concert grade' pianists, including Anton Rubinstein, Prokofieff and Grainger.


And Shostakovich, who early on planned for a concert career as opposed to composing. Glad he changed his mind.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Frederic Rzewski is pretty damn awesome in both departments, and just in performance alone he is amazingly virtuosic, expressive, and is an amazing improviser.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

KenOC said:


> And Shostakovich, who early on planned for a concert career as opposed to composing. Glad he changed his mind.


I read (somewhere) that Shostakovitch made that decision after determining that he wasn't a good enough pianist. It is even possible that Richter mentioned that Shosty wasn't a very good pianist - though that may have been after he stopped practicing.


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## Morgante (Jul 26, 2012)

The best keyboard player is Bach.
The best pianist is Mozart.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

it seems that Sorabji too was a great virtuoso.
And Busoni too.


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## Renaissance (Jul 10, 2012)

Frescobaldi was a great improviser for his times.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

The problem is that we can only read about composers like Liszt etc so we don't really know.
Incidentally piano rolls do count if they are played through a machine that has been set up properly.
Rachmaninoff's piano rolls are pretty well the same as the rather murky 78's that have been transferred---but sound better.


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

Morgante said:


> The best keyboard player is Bach.
> The best pianist is Mozart.


Start watching at 13:56


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Hilltroll72 said:


> I read (somewhere) that Shostakovitch made that decision after determining that he wasn't a good enough pianist.


I think it's true that Shostakovich probably realized he'd never be at the top of the heap, and maybe that influenced his decision. He evidently did some concerts to mixed reviews, the most common comment being that his playing was too "cold" (from memory here). But there are plenty of recordings of him playing his own works, and he was no slouch. One of my favorites is his four-hand arrangement of the 10th Symphony, accompanied by Weinberg (Vainberg in those days).

BTW there is a Zenph re-creation of Rachmaninoff's playing in excellent sound. Quite convincing. He comes across as a very elegant performer, perhaps surprising to some.

http://www.amazon.com/Rachmaninoff-...1352498516&sr=1-1&keywords=rachmaninoff+zenph


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

I am not going to get into the Great Piano-Roll Controversy (which extends to the Zenph process too).


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

Liszt

Liszt

Liszt

But we really don't have much idea, do we?


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Liszt, Brahms, Saint-Saens, Debussy, Prokofiev, Rachmaninoff, Bartok, Frederic Rzewski, Messiaen, are but a few who were famed for their keyboard ability.

Liszt and Saint-Saens were also 'famous' for their ability to sight read anything, at tempo, including a full handwritten orchestral score, making an excellent show of playing the work in a full piano reduction (includes reading and transposing all transposing instruments, and Soprano, tenor, alto and bass clefs!)

Bartok was famous for his Beethoven interpretations, and made as much or more money as a piano recitalist as he did composing.

Debussy won first prize in piano at the Paris Conservatoire, and sight-read the manuscript of Le Sacre Du Printemps, four hand version, with Stravinsky when that score was new.

Conductor George Szell was not only an amazing pianist, but it seems he had almost all of the common repertoire beneath his fingertips, able to play full orchestral works (from memory) while making a reduction at the piano, and knowing too, just about every concerto, sonata, sonata accompaniment, song accompaniment. All from memory...

Benjamin Britten was a very fine pianist. Lukas Foss was a fine pianist. Leonard Bernstein a very passable one... Contemporary British composer Thomas Ades is a very fine pianist.

ADD: If no one has mentioned Domenico Scarlatti, they should 

*Improvisation was mentioned:* Up through the late romantic era, the ability to improvise, including extended development, improvise within a specific form, and of course for performers to be able to compose / improvise their own appropriate cadenzas, _was very much one of the criteria of what made a great pianist / player_. In those eras, Mozart, Beethoven and Liszt were famous for almost never losing, and trumping their opponents by leagues.

That little ditty which Mozart whipped up into a contrapuntal romp in the overture to Marriage of Figaro was an improvised theme played by Clementi in one of the popular 'playoff duels' of the day.

In another one of those duels, Friedrich Kalkbrenner vs. Franz Liszt, Kalkbrenner played first, using his personal 'trick,' a pyrotechnical use of the left hand, leaping from lower to upper register while crossing over a busy right-hand configuration, which gave an auditory illusion of a phantom 'third hand.' Seriously impressive, no doubt. Liszt, in his 'set' started out with something as outrageous, deployed Kalkbrenner's 'trick' to even greater effect, the result wiping Kalkbrenner all over the stage


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## Machiavel (Apr 12, 2010)

The characteristic of Henselt's playing was a combination of Franz Liszt's sonority with Hummel's smoothness. It was full of poetry, remarkable for the great use he made of extended chords, and for his perfect technique. Indeed, his cantabile playing was unequalled: Liszt once commented on the lengths to which Henselt had gone to achieve his famous legato, saying, "I could'nt have had velvet paws like that if I wanted to." I would put Liszt and Saint-Saens and beethoven and rach on that list but Henselt is suppose to be a bliss to listen. Unfortunately he was really shy and only played for himslef. As soon as someone was looking at him he would crumble unto pressure.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

jani said:


> Start watching at 13:56


Jani, thanks for the reference. Beethoven trounced most of his rivals in these "duels," some quite thoroughly. Wölffl seems to have been an exception, although some second-hand sources claim that Wölffl was trounced as well. Evidently not. If you want to read the entire review, which is quite interesting, it's here, second item.

https://sites.google.com/site/kenocstuff/

BTW Beethoven's playing was most prized not for his thunderous fortissimos but for his well-oiled and rapid legatos and "singing tone."


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Sonata said:


> Gould and Gulda composed? I had no idea. Solo piano pieces, or did they go beyond that?


That I know of, Gulda wrote solo and a concerto, and Gould, solo and a string quartet.

CDs with solos, and Gould's string quartet. There may be others.

View attachment 9713
View attachment 9714
View attachment 9715


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Joaquin Rodrigo was reportedly a very fine pianist described as a 'virtuoso'.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Not sure what that has to do with improvisational skills. Anyway, Beethoven had an opinion of Mozart's playing style, which he found "choppy." That sounds very strange to us today and maybe suggests that Mozart played his own works differently from what we're used to hearing. By 1800 CPE Bach's works were being described as "choppy," so perhaps there was some influence on Mozart from that quarter.


'That Choppy quality named has as much to do with the basic technical construct of the piano, very much an ongoing thing in the time of Mozart (where the piano was as someone said, a sort of 'glorified harpsichord') As the instrument became fuller sounding (more tension on thicker strings, better action, fuller felt hammers, the latest development made the old instruments, in comparison, sound 'choppy.' From 'kerplink-kerplonk, to ooooo'


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I once read Bruckner was playing (either organ or piano I don't remember which) at some kind of academic test he was participating in at the end of which he improvised a Fugue which caused one of the teachers to remark something along the lines of '_this guy should be teaching us!_'.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Hilltroll72 said:


> I am not going to get into the Great Piano-Roll Controversy (which extends to the Zenph process too).


It's all been done before ad nauseum over many years.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

tdc said:


> Joaquin Rodrigo was reportedly a very fine pianist described as a 'virtuoso'.


He was ,I have a Spanish HMV of him playing his own music and with his wife.


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## Ondine (Aug 24, 2012)

In my opinion the best keyboardist in earth has been Bach. His organ oeuvre is monumental not to say the other keyboard instruments.

Mozart's oeuvres for piano are monumental too as those from Beethoven.

There is Chopin and we have Rachmaninov too.

I will add to the list Keith Jarrett... knowing this can be a controversial statement 

By the moment this ones are for me the best 'pianists' or at least the ones I have deeply enjoyed for a very long time.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

To put my own Russian 2 cents in:

Prokofiev was an ok pianist. He even admitted it himself that his technique and all wasn't the best, but what _character _he plays with! Absolutely jaunty:






Also, a well kept secret in Russia was that composer *Sergei Taneyev*, mostly known as a teacher and chamber composer, was an *outstanding *pianist, so good that he won the Moscow Conservatory's first Gold Medal for Piano Performance (not even for composition!) and he toured everywhere playing tons of stuff. Sergei Taneyev premiered all 3 of Tchaikovsky's Piano Concertos. He had a knack for hard pieces, mastering Brahms' piano music. In effect a Russian (Pianist) Brahms, if not composer-wise. 

Rachmaninoff was excellent, Scriabin was too, and Shostakovich too in his own right, but not as much of a virtuoso. Glazunov was actually very good too, but didn't like performing. Nerves and all...


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## crmoorhead (Apr 6, 2011)

If I had a time machine, I'd go back and see a Liszt concert during the height of Lisztomania. Or Bach play the organ. And Beethoven and Mozart, especially Beethoven, though I suspect that I would be largely disappointed at the limitations of the period instruments they used.



Vaneyes said:


> 1. Liszt, 2. JS Bach 3. Rachmaninov, 4. Chopin, 5. Britten, 6. Debussy, 7. Mozart 8. Scriabin, 9. Poulenc, 10. Clementi


I didn't even know Britten was a competent pianist, never mind better than Mozart and Scriabin. :O I must say that I am completely unaware of his oeuvre in piano music.

EDIT: I'll also add Shostakovich and Saint-Saens to my list and I recall a story that I read about a certain composer being awarded the highest prize by his conservatory. I can't recall who it was, though it may have been Faure or Franck.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

crmoorhead said:


> If I had a time machine, I'd go back and see a Liszt concert during the height of Lisztomania. Or Bach play the organ. And Beethoven and Mozart, especially Beethoven, though I suspect that I would be largely disappointed at the limitations of the period instruments they used.
> 
> I didn't even know Britten was a competent pianist, never mind better than Mozart and Scriabin. :O I must say that I am completely unaware of his oeuvre in piano music.
> 
> EDIT: I'll also add Shostakovich and Saint-Saens to my list and I recall a story that I read about a certain composer being awarded the highest prize by his conservatory. I can't recall who it was, though it may have been Faure or Franck.


Britten was a phenomenal pianist and one of the best accompanists ever,you can hear him with Peter Pears-----trouble is I can't stand Pears.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Not yet mentioned and not well known: Adolf von Henselt


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

moody said:


> Britten was a phenomenal pianist and one of the best accompanists ever,you can hear him with Peter Pears-----trouble is I can't stand Pears.


There are several recordings of Britten sans Pears:


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Although Ravel has a fame of bad pianist, he received the first prize in the piano student competition in 1891 at the Conservatoire de Paris. Just listen to these impressive and expressive piano roll recordings:


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Going back to the older times that we can never truly know for certain about, Domenico Scarlatti has not been mentioned yet. I also think the abilities of Clementi, Hummel, and John Field were thought highly of. Field was said to have an extremely gentle and natural approach, perhaps the Van Cliburn of those times. 

Godowski was a pretty sick improvisor and pianist wasn't he? I heard that he used to have parties at his house with all sorts of famous guests and pianists alike. They show their stuff, and he would always end the show with his frightening abilities.

I don't know about improvisational skills, but Medtner was a very fine pianist.

Of pianists I've seen and heard perform in recordings, I've yet to see anything top the energy of Grainger.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

I would also like to add that I think Art Tatum was a composer, and he is widely regarded to be one of the best pianists of all time, both in technique and improvisation.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I think nobody's mentioned Sigismond Thalberg, "a composer and one of the most distinguished virtuoso pianists of the 19th century."


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

clavichorder said:


> Going back to the older times that we can never truly know for certain about, Domenico Scarlatti has not been mentioned yet. I also think the abilities of Clementi, Hummel, and John Field were thought highly of. Field was said to have an extremely gentle and natural approach, perhaps the Van Cliburn of those times.
> 
> Godowski was a pretty sick improvisor and pianist wasn't he? I heard that he used to have parties at his house with all sorts of famous guests and pianists alike. They show their stuff, and he would always end the show with his frightening abilities.
> [...]


Godowski should be mentioned in the performance nerves thread; he was a prime example.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

clavichorder said:


> I would also like to add that I think Art Tatum was a composer, and he is widely regarded to be one of the best pianists of all time, both in technique and improvisation.


Oscar Peterson too then.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Thing about Mozart and Beethoven improvising - we'll never know how great that music was. None of it is recorded, although Mozart's Fantasia in c-minor, K475, is said to be based upon an improvisation, but there's no record to prove this.

We have only the wildly enthusiastic remembrances of those who heard these improvisations and the extent of our loss is that I've read that Mozart's greatest piano music was in his solo improvisations. His compositions for sonata were mainly written for talented pupils. They're still high quality, but he didn't treat them as concert pieces for himself, more's the pity. In concert, he went further, in some ways, and created the concertos.

But I doubt his technique would have been up to Liszt or Chopin simply because his instrument was more basic than theirs. It's like comparing a tennis player from the sixties to one from now. talent-wise, he maybe greater, but the techniques back then were more basic, given the equipment. I think a great child pianist now would have more pianistic weapons than Mozart. Certain techniques just weren't invented back then, because pianos were smaller, strings were different, etc. the range grew and so techniques developed that would maximise the effect of the piano.

But it wouldn't take him - or Beethoven - long to catch up! And we can guess from certain works how subtle a player Mozart would have been. I think Beethoven would have been more heavy handed and dramatic. He bust strings when he played! He was an admirer of Clementi's style of playing, which was a style Mozart partly denigrated as being 'mere mechanicus...'


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

It's a shame nobody had the foresight to record Bartok playing his first two piano concertos. He performed these pieces in concert quite a few times. The Pearl and Naxos labels have released historical recordings of Bartok playing a number of his other piano pieces.


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## Praeludium (Oct 9, 2011)

Berlioz of course.







Sorry... but he's actually the only great composer who couldn't play the piano I can think of. 

I'm always impressed to know that so many of the great (and even second tier...) composers were great pianists on the top of being amazingly good at composing. Where the heck did they find that time ? For sure they didn't practice like some music students who need 8 hours a day... They must have been super-efficient with an amazing mind and concentration.

It keeps me motivated for studying guitar, piano and composition, because if they had the time to do it at their amazing level, even I can do it at my mediocre level lol


Anyway, why not first define what a good pianist is ? Some top notch pianists of the beginning of the XXth century would have difficulty keeping up with the level of pros today, as far as technique goes. At least, that's the popular belief.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Praeludium said:


> Berlioz of course.
> 
> Sorry... but he's actually the only great composer who couldn't play the piano I can think of.
> 
> ...


That's a great post, I completely agree. I think techniques move so rapidly. At a pinch, and with a rifle placed square between my eyes, I'd squeak out the word 'Chopin' as my nomination.

As for Berlioz, I also think Schubert wasn't a great pianist (I'm open to correction here), but he composed incredible music for the instrument...


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Kieran said:


> ...I also think Schubert wasn't a great pianist (I'm open to correction here)...


I've read that at one point in the manuscript of the Wanderer Fantasy, Schubert scrawled "I can't play this #$#%^ thing!"


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## TresPicos (Mar 21, 2009)

Bizet was pretty good too...

_In May 1861 Bizet gave a rare demonstration of his virtuoso skills when, at a dinner party at which Liszt was present, he astonished everyone by playing on sight, flawlessly, one of the maestro's most difficult pieces. Liszt commented: "I thought there were only two men able to surmount the difficulties ... there are three, and ... the youngest is perhaps the boldest and most brilliant". _ [from Wikipedia]


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## Logos (Nov 3, 2012)

Weber was a very great virtuoso. He had extremely large hands and often wrote music specifically designed to showcase his great reach.

Weber, Hummel, Liszt, Thalberg, Henselt. These are the names that come to mind. Liszt said that Henselt's concerto was the most difficult of all piano concertos.

This showcases some of the famous Thalberg arpeggios.






And what is probably Weber's finest piano work:


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## Logos (Nov 3, 2012)

Kieran said:


> That's a great post, I completely agree. I think techniques move so rapidly. At a pinch, and with a rifle placed square between my eyes, I'd squeak out the word 'Chopin' as my nomination.
> 
> As for Berlioz, I also think Schubert wasn't a great pianist (I'm open to correction here), but he composed incredible music for the instrument...


Wagner wasn't a good pianist either, or at least not by the standards we're going by here.


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

Schumann wasn't a great pianist.


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## SerbenthumInDerMusik (Nov 9, 2012)

clavichorder said:


> Going back to the older times that we can never truly know for certain about, Domenico Scarlatti has not been mentioned yet.


I believe that Haendel bested him in keyboard or organ duel.

More interesting question would be who were the worst pianists among composers who wrote the most difficult piano works.


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## Logos (Nov 3, 2012)

SerbenthumInDerMusik said:


> I believe that Haendel bested him in keyboard or organ duel.
> 
> More interesting question would be who were the worst pianists among composers who wrote the most difficult piano works.


The verdict was Handel on the organ and a draw on the harpsichord.


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## SerbenthumInDerMusik (Nov 9, 2012)

OK, I should have done a simple search on google before posting. Or at least youtube 




Albeniz studied with Liszt, so he probably qualifies. Schnabel was a composer as well. (Do we mean pianist-composers whose works are actually performed nowadays?)


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## Ravndal (Jun 8, 2012)

What about Ravel? The third movement of Gaspard De La Nuit is probably the hardest piece ever written. I don't know much about him, like if he played it himself, but if he did, he would be a good choice?


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

How do these duelling pianos work? Are they like duelling banjos? Are they set twelve paves apart? What do they play - Ennio Morricone? Is the winner the guy whose cigar is still puffing after a lengthy minor key improv?


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Edit, logos said it. Rhymes.


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