# "Flying Dutchman" recommendation please?



## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

A friend asked me to help him find a good audio CD or maybe video DVD of Wagner's "Flying Dutchman" (I'm too lazy to attempt and botch the German spelling, ha ha).

His not being a huge opera fan, I'd suspect that he'd enjoy a somewhat "realistic" video production versus a more quiet, "formal" stage-type production.

Thanks.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

The best video version I know of is the DVD of Woldemar Nelsson at Bayreuth with Estes, Salminen and Balslev. On CD, you want Klemperer with Adam, Tavela and Silja.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I recommend the DVD version from the Savonlinna festivl in Finland conducted by Leif Segerstam, which particularly atmospheric and spooky sets . Sinopoli/DG , Bohm/Bayreuth, also DG ,Dohnanyi /Decca, 
Levine/Met /Sony , Karajan/EMI are all worth getting .


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

I have all of those but Segerstam. The Sinopoli is quite good. The Bohm is listenable. The rest aren't in the same league.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Dohnanyi is good and very well recorded. Sadly Decca have put a side break in the middle of Senta's aria.


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## david johnson (Jun 25, 2007)

http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-fliege...6835&sr=1-3&keywords=franz+konwitschny+wagner

...this is THE one


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## Adeodatus100 (May 27, 2013)

I'm rather fond of the Antal Dorati recording, with George London and Leonie Rysanek. When the two of them get to sing together, it's delicious.

I agree with the Bayreuth DVD, conducted by Nelsson and produced by Harry Kupfer. Absolutely superb. It radically reinterprets the story but - rarely, I think, for a Wagner production - does it a favour by doing so.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

david johnson said:


> http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-fliege...6835&sr=1-3&keywords=franz+konwitschny+wagner
> 
> ...this is THE one


I agree,great cast---apart from Ms.Schech unfortunately.


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## Roland (Mar 13, 2013)

If your friend wants to go with a CD set, I want to second superhorn and bigshot's recommendation of the Sinopoli version on DG. Cheryl Struder sings Senta's aria marvelously.

I've also read good reviews of the Klemperer set, but I have yet to hear it myself. I also remember reading that Klemperer uses an earlier version of the score in which the overture sounds a bit different from Wagner's later revision that is heard more often on symphony programs. Is that the case, bigshot?


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I MUST have the redemption music at the end.
My favorite recording is the most recent remastered Solti.
love the recording and the cast.
very exciting.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Itullian said:


> I MUST have the redemption music at the end.
> My favorite recording is the most recent remastered Solti.
> love the recording and the cast.
> very exciting.


Now I understand. So the Solti would have the redemption music at the end. Do you know what others have it? I guess I can look at the last track on Solti and see if it differs from others.

Do any of the videos actually have Senta and the Dutchman ascending into Heaven at the end? Mine just has them sink into the sea along with the ship.


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## Faustian (Feb 8, 2015)

Florestan said:


> Now I understand. So the Solti would have the redemption music at the end. Do you know what others have it?


I know the Dohnanyi and the Sinopoli have the redemption music as well. The Dohnanyi is my favorite among those recordings which retain it.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

This has it.


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## anmhe (Feb 10, 2015)

This Andris Nelsons recording is surprisingly good.
http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Flying-Dutchman-Christopher-Ventris/dp/B00OA9NNJ2


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Andris Nelsons' recording sounds great. I wonder if it has the redemption music. I should have the redemption music on my next Dutchman set.

I wish Waltraud Meier had played Senta. I would love to here her on Johohoe! Traft ihr das Schiff im Meere an


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Itullian said:


> This has it.


I may pick this one up also.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Has anyone seen the early/original version of _Der fliegende Holländer_ from Theater an der Wien? Or the recent CD set of it conducted by Marc Minkowski paired with _Le Vaisseau Fantome_ by Dietsch, based partially on Wagner's libretto.

Theater an der Wien is streaming this version of _Der fliegende Holländer_ - set in Scotland, no redemptive ending, etc - on Tuesday and I'm tempted to pay for it and watch.

The production is by Olivier Py, so it may not appeal to all.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

It's oddly difficult to find a really successful performance of this opera. My top recommendation by a pretty large margin is the Keilberth with Uhde and Varnay in early stereo--I have it on the Testament sounding excellent and I've heard good things about the Pristine remaster as well. Keilberth leads a taut, dramatic reading, Uhde delivers an unmatched performance in the role--tormented and riveting--so good that he's ruined other contenders for me. Varnay is a little heavy-voiced as the young Senta but is quite good--I like her better here than as Brunnhilde. Choice #1b for me would be the same principals with Knappertsbusch--the sound is better on the Keilberth, and Keilberth's dramatic and incisive style works better for this opera than Knappertsbusch's more relaxed ways.

Below the Keilberth/Uhde/Varnay and Knappertsbusch for me would be the Dorati with London and Rysanek and Bohm with Stewart and Jones. I don't think Dorati really is at his best in Wagner, but the performance hangs together, and both leads are dramatic and intense--Rysanek gives probably my favorite Senta perfomance. The Bohm with Stewart and Jones is good although a little disappointing--that cast and conductor seems like a world-beating combo but for some reason, the recording doesn't quite click as much as I'd expected. Bohm is like a different conductor in the studio, somehow. His studio recordings never seem as dramatic and intense as his live recordings. 

Other good but not great recordings: The Klemperer is good, although a little plodding as is often the case with later Klemp. I like Adam in the role, but am not a huge fan of Silja as Senta. Silja is also one of the main drawbacks on the otherwise decent Sawallisch with Crass. 

Hotter is an outstanding Dutchman but I only have have him with a past-her-prime Ursuleac on Krauss's 1944 recording and one of those live Met recordings with pretty rough sound with Reiner and Varnay. Between the two, I'd pick the Reiner but it'd be great to have his Dutchman in a better quality recording. 

Two recordings I'd stay away from: Both Bailey and Martin on the Solti seem like they've wandered in from different operas--Bailey sounds elegant, restrained and thoughtful, utterly wrong characterization for a character that should sound tormented to the point of complete despair and insanity. The Konwitchny has an awful Senta and possibly Fischer-Dieskau's most self-deluded undertaking as the Hollander, even more miscast than his Rheingold Wotan.


ETA - Oh, I see that this is a pretty old thread and was revived to talk about Redemption endings. Most do have it--I think of all the ones I mentioned, off the top of my head, the only ones without the Redemption ending is the Konwitchny, the Sawallisch and the Klemperer. I can't say that it's ever made that huge a difference in my listening enjoyment one way or the other, but I do prefer the Redemption ending too.


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

mountmccabe said:


> Has anyone seen the early/original version of _Der fliegende Holländer_ from Theater an der Wien? Or the recent CD set of it conducted by Marc Minkowski paired with _Le Vaisseau Fantome_ by Dietsch, based partially on Wagner's libretto.
> 
> Theater an der Wien is streaming this version of _Der fliegende Holländer_ - set in Scotland, no redemptive ending, etc - on Tuesday and I'm tempted to pay for it and watch.
> 
> The production is by Olivier Py, so it may not appeal to all.


I've heard the Minkowski recording, I thought he really sucked the life out of it. I liked Dietsch's _Le Vaisseau Fantome_ a lot more though, very much in Meyerbeer's style, less self-consciously 'epic' than the Wagner version, more lightweight and fun.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)




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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

howlingfantods said:


> ...
> 
> ETA - Oh, I see that this is a pretty old thread and was revived to talk about Redemption endings. Most do have it--I think of all the ones I mentioned, off the top of my head, the only ones without the Redemption ending is the Konwitchny, the Sawallisch and the Klemperer. I can't say that it's ever made that huge a difference in my listening enjoyment one way or the other, but I do prefer the Redemption ending too.


I did revive it regarding the redemption ending, but am also open to full discussion of this fascinating and wonderful opera. I'll have to give consideration to your various recommendations too.

As for the redemption ending, at this point I have no idea what it is or how it differs from what I have. How can one tell from looking at a listing whether it has the redemption ending? Will the last track be titled differently? I saw that between Solti and Bohm, but the Google translation into English did not indicate anything about redemption, just different ways of titling the track.

I do know the synopses I have read online say at the end Senta jumps from a cliff into the sea and then she and the Dutchman are seen ascending to Heaven, but that last bit about ascending does not happen in my DVD.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Florestan said:


> As for the redemption ending, at this point I have no idea what it is or how it differs from what I have. How can one tell from looking at a listing whether it has the redemption ending? Will the last track be titled differently?


No, it's just the 30 seconds or so of the last track. If it ends pretty abruptly with just a horn fanfare playing a repeated D major chord, that is the original ending. If it ends with the restatement of the Redemption theme from Senta's ballad (winds, string, harp), that's the one with the Redemption ending. Both the Bohm and the Solti have it so you won't see a difference there.

OK for instance, this is the redemption ending:






and this is the original ending:


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

howlingfantods said:


> No, it's just the 30 seconds or so of the last track. If it ends pretty abruptly with just a horn fanfare playing a repeated D major chord, that is the original ending. If it ends with the restatement of the Redemption theme from Senta's ballad (winds, string, harp), that's the one with the Redemption ending. Both the Bohm and the Solti have it so you won't see a difference there.
> 
> OK for instance, this is the redemption ending:
> 
> ...


Thanks, I see, then, that the redemption is the brief bit of softer music in the end on the first video. I just discovered that in looking at a Dutchman sung in English on You Tube right here,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=RGl73rLehn8#t=8165

Also, if Bohm has it, then I am in good shape. I also grabbed the Chandos Opera in English Flying Dutchman with John Tomlinson, whom I like very much, and the D'Oro 1966 Milan with Crass and Rysanek.

I am quickly coming to the conclusion that based on my opera listening experience so far, the two greatest operas are Fidelio and Der Fliegende Hollander.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

howlingfantods said:


> No, it's just the 30 seconds or so of the last track. If it ends pretty abruptly with just a horn fanfare playing a repeated D major chord, that is the original ending. If it ends with the restatement of the Redemption theme from Senta's ballad (winds, string, harp), that's the one with the Redemption ending. Both the Bohm and the Solti have it so you won't see a difference there.
> 
> OK for instance, this is the redemption ending:
> 
> ...


Yup, correct.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Too bad the Thieleman isn't on cd.
I love his conducting, but hate the productions.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

howlingfantods said:


> It's oddly difficult to find a really successful performance of this opera. My top recommendation by a pretty large margin is the Keilberth with Uhde and Varnay in early stereo--I have it on the Testament sounding excellent and I've heard good things about the Pristine remaster as well. Keilberth leads a taut, dramatic reading, Uhde delivers an unmatched performance in the role--tormented and riveting--so good that he's ruined other contenders for me. Varnay is a little heavy-voiced as the young Senta but is quite good--I like her better here than as Brunnhilde. Choice #1b for me would be the same principals with Knappertsbusch--the sound is better on the Keilberth, and Keilberth's dramatic and incisive style works better for this opera than Knappertsbusch's more relaxed ways.
> 
> Below the Keilberth/Uhde/Varnay and Knappertsbusch for me would be the Dorati with London and Rysanek and Bohm with Stewart and Jones. I don't think Dorati really is at his best in Wagner, but the performance hangs together, and both leads are dramatic and intense--Rysanek gives probably my favorite Senta perfomance. The Bohm with Stewart and Jones is good although a little disappointing--that cast and conductor seems like a world-beating combo but for some reason, the recording doesn't quite click as much as I'd expected. Bohm is like a different conductor in the studio, somehow. His studio recordings never seem as dramatic and intense as his live recordings.
> 
> ...


Pretty much exactly my feeling from top to bottom. I would only add a live Bayreuth recording from 1959 with London and Rysanek under Sawallisch. I don't know how many labels it's available on, but it captures the principals in great form, live in the house.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> Pretty much exactly my feeling from top to bottom. I would only add a live Bayreuth recording from *1959 with London and Rysanek under Sawallisch*. I don't know how many labels it's available on, but it captures the principals in great form, live in the house.


That's the ticket and my favorite Dutchman, the 55 stereo Keilberth would be a close 2nd......actually I have 5-6 really good live Dutchman from mid 1950s thru early 1960s with similar casts at different venues, seemed to be a golden era for that opera performance wise


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Itullian said:


>


I am with you, unbeatable :cheers:


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Florestan said:


> Andris Nelsons' recording sounds great. I wonder if it has the redemption music. I should have the redemption music on my next Dutchman set.
> 
> I wish Waltraud Meier had played Senta. I would love to here her on Johohoe! Traft ihr das Schiff im Meere an


I do have Waltraud singing the ballad on an aria CD of hers. Clearly Anja Silja is way better for the ballad.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

How about Leif Segerstam with the Savonlinna Opera Festival. 
->with Hildegard Behrens, Matti Salminen, Franz Grundheber, Ilkka Bäckman. It's a very solid performance from what I remember years ago. Thankfully, it's on YouTube.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Orfeo said:


> How about Leif Segerstam with the Savonlinna Opera Festival.
> ->with Hildegard Behrens, Matti Salminen, Franz Grundheber, Ilkka Bäckman. It's a very solid performance from what I remember years ago. Thankfully, it's on YouTube.


Funny you should mention that. I ordered it and it arrived today. Plan to start watching it tonight.  I got it because the one I have was done as a movie, whereas this one is a regular opera and the staging is pretty decent. I also ordered a TV movie one and there is one done in English on You Tube that I plan to watch also.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

As has been mentioned, the Keilberth Bayreuth 1955 performance with Uhde and Varnay really takes some beating, and it's my personal favourite. I have the Pristine Classical remastering, which is excellent, but I guess any good transfer of this classic performance is worth tracking down.

My second choice would probably be Solti - I'm a huge fan of both Norman Bailey and Martti Talvela, and they're in fine form on this recording. I also liked the sound of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra at that time, and the recording captures it wonderfully. Janis Martin has a few squally moments as Senta, but (meteorologically-speaking) that's perhaps fitting


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

It is going to be hard for me to like any Hollander CD set more than the Sinopoli because it closely approximates what to me is the perfect Dutchman in voice, action, and look of the Sawallisch DVD. However, my Fricsay Hollander set arrived today and it promises to be a great one.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Some light is shed on the redemption ending in the liner notes of my new Fricsay Hollander set, which by the way is a remarkable recording with a very intense Dutchman and a great Senta:



> Most of Wagner's revisions [to the Hollander opera] over the years were fairly minor. However, in 1860 a crucial change was made to the ending of the opera and, consequently, to the overture. By that time he had composed the momentous music of Tristan and Isolde and was now able to deal convincingly with the concept of redemption through love. As he wrote to Mathilde Wesendonck: 'Only now that I have written Isolde's final transfiguration have I been able to find the right ending for The Flying Dutchman.'


So really, any recording without the redemption ending (Klemperer) falls short of the real thing and is like listening to Leonore instead of Fidelio, which is not a bad thing, just as long as we treat it as an intermediate stage of development prior to the final opera.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

I don't agree with that at all. I think it is just as reasonable to treat the version used for the 1843 premiere to be the actual opera, and to treat other attempts such as a version from decades later as revisions.

Though personally I think either approach is needlessly dogmatic; I find it far more reasonable to invoke Schrödinger and consider _Der fliegende Holländer_ as a cloud, as a range. There are limits, of course, but drawing them as narrowly as suggested seems too limiting.

That is, I'd consider the 1841 version recently presented by Theater an der Wien to be within the cloud, even if it is a rarely visited and oddly shaped region of that cloud.

_Tannhäuser_ is a cloud, though it has two distinct lobes, Dresden and Paris. I do not have a detection device fine enough to say if _Leonore_ and _Fidelio_ are separate clouds that are adjacent or if they are a single cloud with the larger _Fidelio_ lobe dominating, and the 1805 and 1806 versions off to the side.

Most operas are not this complicated, with the variations seen via cuts and varying interpretations, though there are plenty from revision happy composers such as Donizetti, Verdi, and Handel that are similar. Other striking variations are seen in operas left incomplete such as _Lulu_, _Khovanshchina_, and _Prince Igor_.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

mountmccabe said:


> I don't agree with that at all. I think it is just as reasonable to treat the version used for the 1843 premiere to be the actual opera, and to treat other attempts such as a version from decades later as revisions....


I guess I should have stated it differently. Perhaps better to say that any recording without the redemption ending (Klemperer) falls short of the Wagner's last known desired revision. The way it is put in the quote though, it seems as though the opera was not complete (i.e., not having the right ending) in Wagner's mind until this new ending was applied.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I agree, it's good to have all the versions under the cloud, but in some cases revisions are just better. Personally I like _Hollander _better with the "transfiguration" ending and find the original ending jarringly abrupt, but then I seize every opportunity to be transfigured. Besides, it's just too lovely to sacrifice. The two _Tannhausers_ are almost different operas, but there's just no contest, musically. Wagner said he wanted to revise the rest of the opera but never got around to it. As I find the piece draggy in places, I wish he had: that Paris Venusberg is insanely stupendous and the music for Venus is prime post-Tristan erotica and spine-shiveringly gorgeous. If you were Tannhauser would you want to leave that music and go back home to prissy Wolfram and the boring Landgraf giving speeches? I mean, it's like Dorothy leaving the Emerald City for that cornfield and fussy old Auntie Em.

_Leonore_ has some great music that isn't in _Fidelio_ and is definitely worth performing, but I suppose _Fidelio_ is tighter. Verdi's _Macbeth_ revisions are indispensable. Probably the toughest example is_ Don Carlos/Carlo_. I don't think any way you do it is the best way - though I'm inclined to use most of the music regardless of language - and nothing will ever make the ending satisfactory. Maybe Verdi should have had Wagner finish it for him.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> If you were Tannhauser would you want to leave that music and go back home to prissy Wolfram and the boring Landgraf giving speeches? I mean, it's like Dorothy leaving the Emerald City for that cornfield and fussy old Auntie Em.


There's no place like Rome!


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I actually like the first version better. I prefer the full overture and dispensing with the ballet he added for the Paris jerks.


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## MosmanViolinist (Nov 10, 2015)

purists are going to hate me for this comment, but I like the version with instruments of Wagner's day recorded in Cologne. Also there is a wonderful Rheingold on YouTube with Simon Rattle and the Orvhestra of the Age of Enlightenment.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

MosmanViolinist said:


> purists are going to hate me for this comment, but I like the version with instruments of Wagner's day recorded in Cologne.


The Bruno Weil recording? It's excellent, and I also enjoyed Marc Minkowski's period-practice version, in which the Wagner is coupled with a surprisingly good [French] "sister opera" by Louis Dietsch, _Le Vaisseau Fantôme_ - a fascinating combination, if only for the curious. Not that these would be my top recommendations, but they're certainly well worth hearing.

(PS: I also agree that the Rattle _Rheingold_ with the OAE is great.)


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## MosmanViolinist (Nov 10, 2015)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> The Bruno Weil recording? It's excellent, and I also enjoyed Marc Minkowski's period-practice version)


I don't know it but will look, Yes Bruno!


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Are we still on the Dutchman or did we veer off course. Just in case, I'll put us back on course.

Here is a Dutchman recording that I am wondering about. I did not care for Hildegard Behrens in this Dutchman DVD. I think she was too old and seemed strained when singing. Some Amazon reviewers noted she was past her prime. That DVD appears to be 2004. But she was supposed to have been a great operatic singer, and so I think I owe it to myself to give her another try. This CD set appears to date from 1994 so I would think that 10 years earlier, she would be singing quite well. What do you think?


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## Faustian (Feb 8, 2015)

^^^

That's my personal favorite studio recording of Dutchman. Behrens is in fine voice.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Florestan said:


> Are we still on the Dutchman or did we veer off course. Just in case, I'll put us back on course.
> 
> Here is a Dutchman recording that I am wondering about. I did not care for Hildegard Behrens in this Dutchman DVD. I think she was too old and seemed strained when singing. Some Amazon reviewers noted she was past her prime. That DVD appears to be 2004. But she was supposed to have been a great operatic singer, and so I think I owe it to myself to give her another try. This CD set appears to date from 1994 so I would think that 10 years earlier, she would be singing quite well. What do you think?


I had a copy of that and didn't find it competitive. Robert Hale's Dutchman is less than gripping, and I don't remember the rest of it; maybe I didn't bother to listen to it all. (Hale was a fine baritone, though. I sang in a _Messiah_ back in the 1970s in which he was an excellent soloist.)


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> I had a copy of that and didn't find it competitive. Robert Hale's Dutchman is less than gripping, and I don't remember the rest of it; maybe I didn't bother to listen to it all. (Hale was a fine baritone, though. I sang in a _Messiah_ back in the 1970s in which he was an excellent soloist.)


I prefer Weikl (Sinopoli) as over Hale. Weikl has a much richer voice it seems when compared to Clips of the Dohnanyi recording, but the Senta on Dohnanyi is very good (my quick test being Johohoe), perhaps close to my favorite on CD (Silja on the Klemperer recording).


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Florestan said:


> Are we still on the Dutchman or did we veer off course.


Just following the Dutchman's example, I guess


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Just following the Dutchman's example, I guess


I am glad someone caught my pun. :lol:


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Interesting bit on the Flying Dutchman legend.

"She was an Amsterdam vessel and sailed from port seventy years ago. Her master's name was *Van der Decken*. He was a staunch seaman, and would have his own way in spite of the devil. For all that, never a sailor under him had reason to complain; though how it is on board with them nobody knows. The story is this: that in doubling the Cape they were a long day trying to weather the Table Bay. However, the wind headed them, and went against them more and more, and Van der Decken walked the deck, swearing at the wind. Just after sunset a vessel spoke him, asking him if he did not mean to go into the bay that night. Van der Decken replied: "May I be eternally damned if I do, though I should beat about here till the day of judgment." And to be sure, he never did go into that bay, for it is believed that he continues to beat about in these seas still, and will do so long enough. This vessel is never seen but with foul weather along with her.[6]"

6. Music with Ease (2008). "Source of the Legend of The Flying Dutchman". Music with Ease. Retrieved 2008-02-23.

http://www.musicwithease.com/flying-dutchman-source.html

Now I am tempted to have my username changed to Van der Decken! 

Wikipedia has the full name: Captain Hendrick Van der Decken


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I recommend the excellent DG CD version which was made as a film . Despite the later dubbing of the music onto the filmed version , it works very well and the special effects are imaginative and well done . 
The production is by the Czech director Vaclav Kaslik (Kash-lik ) and was made in 1974 . 
The conductor is the late Wolfgang Sawallisch with the Bavarian State orchestra and chorus , with Donald McIntyre in the title role and Catarina Ligendza as Senta and they and the entire cast are first rate , and Sawalisch is hard to beat in this repertoire .


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

OOPS ! This is a DVD , not a CD ! Finger slip !


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

superhorn said:


> OOPS ! This is a DVD , not a CD ! Finger slip !


You can go back and edit your original post for a certain time period. Can't remember but think it is several hours. You'll see the edit selection at the bottom if it is still available.

Agree the Sawallisch DVD is an awesome production. My first Dutchman was that DVD and my son and I both watched it for the first time and were were blown away.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Anybody have this one (sound clips here). If so, how do you like it (Here is a review).


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## MichaWeinst (May 2, 2018)

mountmccabe said:


> _Tannhäuser_ is a cloud, though it has two distinct lobes, Dresden and Paris. I do not have a detection device fine enough to say if _Leonore_ and _Fidelio_ are separate clouds that are adjacent or if they are a single cloud with the larger _Fidelio_ lobe dominating, and the 1805 and 1806 versions off to the side.


Tannhäuser has not two distinct lobes, but at least four. There is the original Dresden 1845 version, then Wagner revised the finale (to include Venus) and prelude to Act 3 in 1847, in the version which now everybody calls "the Dresden version". There are apparently 4 different musical versions to the finale, including another (stage-directionwise) version. The original 1861 Paris version is in French, and has the overture seperate from the Venusberg Scene (by the way, the Venusberg Scene has a bit harmonically different opening than that in Dresden). It is also revealed that in 1860, Wagner wrote different parts for the percussion (for the Paris version) than the ones played nowadays (some of the old percussion parts can be heard in Solti's recording). Then Wagner cut the Overture to connect it to the Venusberg Scene in 1875, and the libretto was German. In other words, 1875 is what people call "the Paris version" (I personally call it "the Vienna version", as it was for presentations in Vienna).


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