# Pieces that you expected to be blown away by, but weren't



## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

We have had a fairly popular thread for pieces that have blown us away, but often we have expectations for a piece that lets us down. What are some pieces which you were expecting to be blown away by, but weren't?


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)




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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

I had my hopes high for Vaughan Williams' 7th symphony. Unfortunately I didn't enjoy it as much as I had hoped. Same thing happened every time I listeneed to it after that. The reason I keot putting it on, actually, was because I couldn't remember anything about it more than two hours after listening. Even when paying close attention to it it just went _in one ear and out the other._


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I had my hopes high for Vaughan Williams' 7th symphony. Unfortunately I didn't enjoy it as much as I had hoped. Same thing happened every time I listeneed to it after that. The reason I keot putting it on, actually, was because I couldn't remember anything about it more than two hours after listening. Even when paying close attention to it it just went _in one ear and out the other._


 I love the RVW work, and that is what really sold me on the Composer. The one work that always dissapoints me is Richard Strauss Metamorphasen. The writers wax lyrically about how it is such a moving lament for a destroyed world and way of life, and I since I enjoy so many of his Tone Poems I always expect to be moved by it, but the only sensation that I ever get is boredom after about 5 minutes.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

The biggest disappointment of all was being 12 years old and buying *Strauss' Also Sprach Zarathustra* with my lawn mowing money only to find the famous sunrise section really is the only goose bump moment. The rest is so anticlimactic. It was so hard to believe, I kept listening anyway, trying to find that spark that just isn't there.

As an adult I can approach it with different expectations and find it pretty amazing, but back then it was as bad as getting rejected by your first girlfriend.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

Weston said:


> ...back then it was as bad as getting rejected by your first girlfriend.


That brings back sore memories of typing class: my buddy and I were the only 2 guys and I got to sit beside a svelte blue-eyed blonde for the whole semester  but, back to the thread...

RVW doesn't surprise, but Richard Strauss sure does 

I had a couple in mind that disappointed, but I think I shouldn't pick on the living :lol: and now I'm tongue-tied. It must be those high school memories 

Oh, and thank Heaven for progress! Now, we have lawn cutting crews and condos :tiphat:


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Mahler's 8th.  When I first started dabbling in classical I was seduced by the 'Symphony of a Thousand' tag and bought it before hearing anything at all by him, but to this day it remains my least favourite symphony of his. I'm just so glad that I didn't give up there and then.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I had my hopes high for Vaughan Williams' 7th symphony. Unfortunately I didn't enjoy it as much as I had hoped. Same thing happened every time I listeneed to it after that. The reason I keot putting it on, actually, was because I couldn't remember anything about it more than two hours after listening. Even when paying close attention to it it just went _in one ear and out the other._


I rarely listen to the 7th, I'm much more fond of the fluid counterpoint of the 3rd or the colourful 8th (which is a very nice work, I don't know why has so few champions compared to the others).* The 4th is very interesting get past the bombastic opening, this is the one to set expectations for *(the others is better to just listen what they've got and learn what to expect).


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> I rarely listen to the 7th, I'm much more fond of the fluid counterpoint of the 3rd or the colourful 8th (which is a very nice work, I don't know why has so few champions compared to the others).* The 4th is very interesting get past the bombastic opening, this is the one to set expectations for *(the others is better to just listen what they've got and learn what to expect).


I actually decided to listen to the 8th a few days ago, just picking another symphony at random, and I really really enjoyed it! I will try these others too! Thanks for the recommendation.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Way back in the 80s.....

Beethoven 9 (I had already listened to 3,5,6, and was getting ready for the ultimate masterpiece - underwhelmed and it did not get better when I tried and tried again).

Schubert 9 (the 8th was and is a favourite, I never heard what others hear in the 9th).

Mahler 8 (I had already listened to 1,2,4,6,9, and had high expectations since I loved his vocal works [Das Lied von der Erde, Song cycles] - I was disappointed, and after re-listening a number of times over the years it is still my least favourite Mahler symphony).


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## StevenOBrien (Jun 27, 2011)

Mozart's String Quintets. I've never been able to understand why so many people hold them up as the pinnacle of his chamber music. I would take any of his other chamber works over them.


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## Skilmarilion (Apr 6, 2013)

A couple come to mind, although I intend to keep trying with them ...

*Le Sacre du Printemps* -- When I actually get past how radical and how game-changing this work is, I find that I simply don't really care for the music.

*Shostakovich's 4th* -- The 'hype' with this is that it's entirely unlike any of his other symphonies, one of his few works without any gimmicks and incredibly powerful. I do appreciate it on a certain level, but I've always found this one unbelievably tough to "get".


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> I rarely listen to the 7th, I'm much more fond of the fluid counterpoint of the 3rd or the colourful 8th (which is a very nice work, I don't know why has so few champions compared to the others).* The 4th is very interesting get past the bombastic opening, this is the one to set expectations for *(the others is better to just listen what they've got and learn what to expect).


Another cheer for VW's 8th Symphony. A really delightful work, always one of my favorite VW symphonies. The 4th has been the one that I've concluded must be better than it sounds. I'll try again sometime.


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## geralmar (Feb 15, 2013)

Wellington's Victory. I thought it would be an improvement over the 1812.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

geralmar said:


> Wellington's Victory. I thought it would be an improvement over the 1812.


The 1812 is really better than we like to admit. Wellington is worse than we want to think. Beethoven just _has_ to be better than Tchaikovsky, doesn't he ...?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Schoenberg's Violin Concerto. Doesn't have the "blown away" factor for me that I received from the Piano Concerto, but I'm still listening. Maybe one day...


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> The 1812 is really better than we like to admit. Wellington is worse than we want to think. Beethoven just _has_ to be better than Tchaikovsky, doesn't he ...?


An ounce of Tchaikovsky is worth of pound of myrrh.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Also Ives' Fourth Symphony after loving his Second and Third Symphonies. The Fourth Symphony I find "puzzling" and leaves me emotionally detached.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

I definitely enjoyed Ives' 4th the most. I didn't have any expectations for his others, so I can't post them here


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

One, of a few, if I wasn't so bashful about mentioning them all  that comes to mind is:

Nørgård Symphony 3

When I first read about his Infinity Series, I was _so_ fascinated, but I admit that I was underwhelmed when I heard it.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Schubert's Symphony No. 9 and String Quintet.

To these ears, they sound like dull academic exercises in rhythmic tedia.

Disappointing.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

I am presently listening to Saariaho's _Six Japanese Gardens_ a second time. I listened to it a couple of days ago and it was the reason for starting this list 

Yes, I still feel underwhelmed. I would describe it as a new age, ambient or atmospheric piece using Asian instruments. Imagine wind chimes and garden noise makers tinkling prettily for 20 minutes: my uneducated ear detects neither structure nor development.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

brotagonist said:


> I am presently listening to Saariaho's _Six Japanese Gardens_ a second time. I listened to it a couple of days ago and it was the reason for starting this list
> 
> Yes, I still feel underwhelmed. I would describe it as a new age, ambient or atmospheric piece using Asian instruments. Imagine wind chimes and garden noise makers tinkling prettily for 20 minutes: my uneducated ear detects neither structure nor development.


It's a piece for percussion solo and electronics, so the structure and development are both in rhythm and timbre. I feel Saariaho succeeds in varying both in interesting ways throughout. Before you give up, try seeing a performance.






I'm also disappointed by how many people point to Mahler's Eighth as their least favorite of his works; it's an amazing piece of which the composer was justifiably proud.


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

Brahms' Symphony 4. After hearing so many write about how it's his 'best symphony' and a masterpiece of the 19th century, I, well, I expected that. Instead I fell asleep [I was listening to it in the car (no I wasn't driving)]. I listened to it again, paying more attention and consciousness, but it didn't improve.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Troyens


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Itullian said:


> Troyens


Here's something we agree on! :lol:


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

_Meistersinger_ _sans_ Schwarzkopf


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## SimonNZ (Jul 12, 2012)

brotagonist said:


> I am presently listening to Saariaho's _Six Japanese Gardens_ a second time. I listened to it a couple of days ago and it was the reason for starting this list
> 
> Yes, I still feel underwhelmed. I would describe it as a new age, ambient or atmospheric piece using Asian instruments. Imagine wind chimes and garden noise makers tinkling prettily for 20 minutes: my uneducated ear detects neither structure nor development.


Can I ask if you saw or followed up on my recommendation of the Thierry Miroglio performance over the Florent Jodelet?

Its faster and rougher where it needs to be, which contrasts/juxtaposes better with the calmer moments. And while I don't mind the Jodelet recording, I can see how it flirts a little to much with the new-agey.

http://www.talkclassical.com/37262-current-listening-vol-iii-250.html#post874546

(I haven't seen the performance mahlerian linked to - I'll be checking that out when I get home)


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Prokofiev's violin concertos, Messiaen's Et exspecto, Schnittke's Viola concerto, Tchaikovsky's 4th and 5th symphonies, Sibelius' 2nd Symphony, Beethoven's cello sonatas, Bach's Mass in B minor, most Mozart piano concertos, Strauss' Also Sprach Zarathustra, Don Quixote and Till Eulenspiegels.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Havergal Brian's Symphony No. 1 was supposed to blow me away but unfortunately it was a mere breeze compared to the hurricane I was expecting.


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## SimonNZ (Jul 12, 2012)

Der Leiermann said:


> Prokofiev's violin concertos, Messiaen's Et exspecto, Schnittke's Viola concerto, Tchaikovsky's 4th and 5th symphonies, Sibelius' 2nd Symphony, Beethoven's cello sonatas, *Bach's Mass in B minor,* most Mozart piano concertos, Strauss' Also Sprach Zarathustra, Don Quixote and Till Eulenspiegels.


Wow. Which recording(s) of the B minor mass have you heard?

Actually for anyone thinking they don't like that work I'd say: try playing the second disc first. The Credo and Sanctus will sound on most recordings much lighter and swifter than the possibly gloomy opening Kyrie


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

John Luther Adams' _Become Ocean_ was raved about everywhere I looked -my friends on Facebook, NPR, YouTube . . . When I took the time to sit down and listen I couldn't have been more underwhelmed. 4'33" has more exciting voice leading and modulation. My apologies to him if he reads this forum, but I must be too much of a Philistine to get it. I'll leave it for others to enjoy.


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

StevenOBrien said:


> Mozart's String Quintets. I've never been able to understand why so many people hold them up as the pinnacle of his chamber music. I would take any of his other chamber works over them.


Whenever I don't understand why certain well-known compositions get so much respect, I find that reading about them--especially the insights of other musicians or musicologists--can often help...sometimes. Charles Rosen was pretty enthusiastic about the last 4 quintets and wrote about them in his book. Of course, sometimes it's just easier to throw something into the "Everybody who likes these pieces is wrong because they are overrated" pile after one or two listens as well.


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## TradeMark (Mar 12, 2015)

I love Brahms but I found his requiem to be incredibly boring.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

Der Leiermann said:


> Prokofiev's violin concertos, Messiaen's Et exspecto, Schnittke's Viola concerto, Tchaikovsky's 4th and 5th symphonies, Sibelius' 2nd Symphony, Beethoven's cello sonatas, Bach's Mass in B minor, most Mozart piano concertos, Strauss' Also Sprach Zarathustra, Don Quixote and Till Eulenspiegels.


Holy Moley! What does impress you? :lol: Almost all of those are mega-favourites.



SimonNZ said:


> Can I ask if you saw or followed up on my recommendation of the Thierry Miroglio performance over the Florent Jodelet?
> 
> Its faster and rougher where it needs to be, which contrasts/juxtaposes better with the calmer moments. And while I don't mind the Jodelet recording, I can see how it flirts a little to much with the new-agey.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I had missed that post  I will listen later this evening and will post in Current Listening.

Thanks, Mahlerian. I have flash disabled, so I didn't notice the YT video  I'll listen to that one later, too.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

SimonNZ said:


> Wow. Which recording(s) of the B minor mass have you heard?
> 
> Actually for anyone thinking they don't like that work I'd say: try playing the second disc first. The Credo and Sanctus will sound on most recordings much lighter and swifter than the possibly gloomy opening Kyrie


I think it was Herreweghe's.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

brotagonist said:


> Holy Moley! What does impress you? :lol: Almost all of those are mega-favourites.


Well, almost every major work by every composer I listed except maybe Strauss.


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## SimonNZ (Jul 12, 2012)

Der Leiermann said:


> I think it was Herreweghe's.


gak! That's my favorite recording!

seriously, though: try playing the second disc first next time


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## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

Der Leiermann said:


> Prokofiev's violin concertos, Messiaen's Et exspecto, Schnittke's Viola concerto, Tchaikovsky's 4th and 5th symphonies, Sibelius' 2nd Symphony, Beethoven's cello sonatas, Bach's Mass in B minor, most Mozart piano concertos, Strauss' Also Sprach Zarathustra, Don Quixote and Till Eulenspiegels.


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## omega (Mar 13, 2014)

Ravel, _Daphnis et Chloé_.

It's only after two or three listens that I started to be "blown away"... but I still expected more!


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## StevenOBrien (Jun 27, 2011)

trazom said:


> Whenever I don't understand why certain well-known compositions get so much respect, I find that reading about them--especially the insights of other musicians or musicologists--can often help...sometimes. Charles Rosen was pretty enthusiastic about the last 4 quintets and wrote about them in his book. Of course, sometimes it's just easier to throw something into the "Everybody who likes these pieces is wrong because they are overrated" pile after one or two listens as well.


"Everybody who likes these pieces is wrong because they are overrated" - I didn't say that...

If you have any specific suggestions for performances or reading material that you think might win me over (I've already read Rosen's), I'd be happy to try them.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Mozart's Six String Quartets dedicated to Haydn.

I love Mozart, but these works are a bit too dense and complex for my ears. Perhaps this was Mozart's way of "showing off" to the dedicatee.


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

The slow movement of the Hammerklavier sonata. Still does nothing for me. I really like the other movements though.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The William Schuman Violin Concerto.

I love the Schuman symphonies but the level of inspiration in the concerto seems to be quite a bit lower to these ears. Also it seems needlessly complex.

Disappointing.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

hpowders said:


> The William Schuman Violin Concerto.
> 
> I love the Schuman symphonies but the level of inspiration in the concerto seems to be quite a bit lower to these ears. Also it seems needlessly complex.
> 
> Disappointing.


I felt the same way--though by contrast I was pleasantly surprised by his cello concerto, The Song of Orpheus. It'd be nice to have a good new recording of that one.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Blancrocher said:


> I felt the same way--though by contrast I was pleasantly surprised by his cello concerto, The Song of Orpheus. It'd be nice to have a good new recording of that one.


I don't have it. I'll listen to it on YouTube. Thanks.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Debussy La Mer.

I expected to be blown away by the wind and waves but instead was lulled to sleep.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

*Post has been deleted*


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

shangoyal said:


> The slow movement of the Hammerklavier sonata. Still does nothing for me. I really like the other movements though.


I'm glad I'm not the only one. I think B miscalculated and departed from his rather drab and meagre thematic material too far too soon; the opening theme is nondescript, and before we even know its supposed to be a theme he's wandering off into complexities which seem to go on on forever before the drab opening "theme" is heard again. I had to hear the movement a few times to begin to make sense out of it; looking at the score also helped clarify things. B typically finds very striking and memorable thematic gestures and then proceeds in a clearly intelligible way, but I realize this was an experimental period for him. Even now that I understand what he's doing in this, it still doesn't do much for me; it sounds like an unsuccessful attempt at profundity, not a total failure but short of what it hopes to be. I love the other three movements, however.


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I'm glad I'm not the only one. I think B miscalculated and departed from his rather drab and meagre thematic material too far too soon; the opening theme is nondescript, and before we even know its supposed to be a theme he's wandering off into complexities which seem to go on on forever before the drab opening "theme" is heard again. I had to hear the movement a few times to begin to make sense out of it; looking at the score also helped clarify things. B typically finds very striking and memorable thematic gestures and then proceeds in a clearly intelligible way, but I realize this was an experimental period for him. Even now that I understand what he's doing in this, it still doesn't do much for me; it sounds like an unsuccessful attempt at profundity, not a total failure but short of what it hopes to be. I love the other three movements, however.


Yes, that is a very good description, it's close to what I feel. I think a word just right for this movement is "lukewarm". Even sad music needs to be interesting.


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I'm glad I'm not the only one. I think B miscalculated and departed from his rather drab and meagre thematic material too far too soon; the opening theme is nondescript, and before we even know its supposed to be a theme he's wandering off into complexities which seem to go on on forever before the drab opening "theme" is heard again. I had to hear the movement a few times to begin to make sense out of it; looking at the score also helped clarify things. B typically finds very striking and memorable thematic gestures and then proceeds in a clearly intelligible way, but I realize this was an experimental period for him. Even now that I understand what he's doing in this, it still doesn't do much for me; it sounds like an unsuccessful attempt at profundity, not a total failure but short of what it hopes to be. I love the other three movements, however.


I know what you mean, I don't think it achieves the soaring levels of profundity and expression that the slow movements of the other late sonatas do, in half the time, at that! Just think of the slow movements and variations Ops. 101, 109, 110, and 111. That said, all of them (Op. 106 included) make up the absolute peak of solo piano music, in my opinion.

In "Current Listening", I called the 'Hammerklavier' his "supreme enigma", the piano sonata equivalent of the String Quartet 13 w/Grosse Fuge. I'm still struggling to understand them. I think all of the late quartets and sonatas are enigmas, but some are more elusive than others.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

The cool thing about the Hammerklavier adagio is, possibly to my ears only, it's a kind of precursor to the "boogie" syncopation of the No. 32 sonata. It comes along roughly at the 2:00 minute mark, though I have no idea of the measure number. I can hear a slight swing element. Though his version is less swinging, Andras Schiff declares it the deepest most profound of slow movements. I'm not sure I agree, but I do find it very moving.


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

Weston said:


> The cool thing about the Hammerklavier adagio is, possibly to my ears only, it's a kind of precursor to the "boogie" syncopation of the No. 32 sonata. It comes along roughly at the 2:00 minute mark, though I have no idea of the measure number. I can hear a slight swing element. Though his version is less swinging, Andras Schiff declares it the deepest most profound of slow movements. I'm not sure I agree, but I do find it very moving.


Yes, that interconnectivity is one of the things I love about the late piano sonatas, there is deliberate germination of themes and ideas that are transformed throughout the various sonatas, you'll hear ideas from No. 32 in their "raw forms" in some of the previous sonatas, it's almost as if he knew Op. 111 would be the culmination/apex of his sonatas. I thought Mahler was the first composer to do that, but I suppose not.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DiesIraeVIX said:


> Yes, that interconnectivity is one of the things I love about the late piano sonatas, there is deliberate germination of themes and ideas that are transformed throughout the various sonatas, you'll hear ideas from No. 32 in their "raw forms" in some of the previous sonatas, it's almost as if he knew Op. 111 would be the culmination/apex of his sonatas. I thought Mahler was the first composer to do that, but I suppose not.


And of course the late quartets have definite thematic connections. A violinist friend of mine believes that Beethoven actually thought of them as a cycle.


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## Guest (May 10, 2015)

brotagonist said:


> One, of a few, if I wasn't so bashful about mentioning them all  that comes to mind is:
> 
> Nørgård Symphony 3
> 
> When I first read about his Infinity Series, I was _so_ fascinated, but I admit that I was underwhelmed when I heard it.


It's a bit trad isn't it. Hardly seems like the same composer of the SQs I have.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

I've never disagreed with anything as much as I disagree with you guys about the slow movement of the Hammerklavier!

A piece that has consistently not lived up to expectations for me is Brahms' Sextet in G. I love Brahms, especially his chamber music, and that piece is one of his most celebrated, but it doesn't quite come together for me somehow.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I think you guys are very bold to give your opinion that the Hammerklvier - one of the acknowledged masterpieces - is 'miscalculated' and 'lukewarm'. Or could it be a lack of understanding of the piece. Quoting Andrew Clements:

_If the last three sonatas are about reflection and the different kinds of poetic resolution a composer can achieve, this work deals unashamedly in confrontation, generating tensions that can't be resolved in any other way than in the gigantic explosion of the final fugue, whose deliberately clashing sonorities and raw-edged piano sound create a music that it is impossible to prettify. Yet the great slow movement, with its arching melodic lines and bewitching harmonic shifts, demands a different kind of authority altogether; and it's the fusion of these two worlds in the sonata that is unique even in late Beethoven._

Brendel expresses the view that, _as to its volume and compositional design, this sonata goes beyond everything that has ever been dared and accomplished in the field of piano sonata composition_

Wilhelm Kempff described it as _the most magnificent monologue Beethoven ever wrote._

But read note 39 on p. 1032 of Swafford's Anguish and Triumph. Good insights. I'll put Richter on now!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Somebody wrote that the Hammerklavier, like the Mona Lisa, is a work more admired and celebrated than loved. I suspect that's true. But it's absolutely magnificent and probably unsurpassable in its way.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Somebody wrote that the Hammerklavier, like the Mona Lisa, is a work more admired and celebrated than loved. I suspect that's true. But it's absolutely magnificent and probably unsurpassable in its way.


Swafford says: The Hammerklavier was [Beethoven's] supreme challenge to players and listeners alike"


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

isorhythm, I am able to greatly appreciate the Hammerklavier's Adagio. I find it very moving and completely fascinating. At the same time I can understand when people _don't_ hear what most _do_. The movement is absolutely sprawling, massive, seemingly "formless" (even though it isn't), that "wandering" quality is enough to put some people off of it and I think that's completely valid.

DavidA, the Adagio is undoubtedly and indisputably a masterpiece, but some may still have certain reservations. No harm done. You should read the amount of flak the Ninth's finale gets!  The amount of praise and scholarship it has received is deserved, I'm glad you brought it up. I also find that reading and learning about a work can increase appreciation. You should read Charles Rosen analysis of the Hammerklavier in "The Classical Style", and what NPR's Theodor Libbey wrote, "The Adagio of the Hammerklavier Sonata is one of the most overwhelmingly affecting expressions in all of Beethoven's sonatas... just when Beethoven appears to have reached the limit of spirituality, he goes off still further into an utterly ethereal realm. An entire line of development in Romantic music - passing through Schubert, Chopin, Schumann, Brahms, and Liszt - springs from this movement".

Personally, I think he reached higher, more rarefied and ethereal realms in the Adagios of 109, 110, and 111. Yet, if I had to choose his greatest piano sonata overall, _all_ aspects considered, and as objectively as possible. I'd narrow it down between the No. 29 Hammerklavier and No. 32.

Edit: KenOC's post above is a great, succinct way to put it. :tiphat:


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

Almost all of Debussy's entire output for orchestra... his keyboard works are great but to my taste when he tried to work outside that box he becomes very dull (greatest stuff ever to fall asleep to). 

Oh and you guys are crazy to not see the diamond that is the Adagio sostenuto of the Hammerklavier... Crazy.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Fugue Meister said:


> Almost all of Debussy's entire output for orchestra... his keyboard works are great but to my taste when he tried to work outside that box he becomes very dull (greatest stuff ever to fall asleep to).
> 
> Oh and you guys are crazy to not see the diamond that is the Adagio sostenuto of the Hammerklavier... Crazy.


I agree completely. Complete boredom regarding Debussy's orchestral works. I would rather be water-boarded. Yes the Hammerklavier Adagio is one of the greatest ever written and for me is concrete evidence that Beethoven was indeed the first Romantic composer.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

Fugue Meister said:


> Almost all of Debussy's entire output for orchestra... his keyboard works are great but to my taste when he tried to work outside that box he becomes very dull (greatest stuff ever to fall asleep to).


I feel sad for all of you.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Stravinsky's Violin Concerto. Cold. Cold. Cold!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

hpowders said:


> I agree completely. Complete boredom regarding Debussy's orchestral works. I would rather be water-boarded. Yes the Hammerklavier Adagio is one of the greatest ever written and for me is concrete evidence that Beethoven was indeed the first Romantic composer.


Just listened to the Adagio of the Hammerklavier again. Extraordinary!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

hpowders said:


> Stravinsky's Violin Concerto. Cold. Cold. Cold!


Stravinsky's often cold, good music to chill out to. I never much liked his Violin Concerto until I heard Patricia Kopatchinskaja's recent recording, now I listen to it often.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Aaron Copland Connotations for Orchestra. Did nothing for me.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Stravinsky's often cold, good music to chill out to. I never much liked his Violin Concerto until I heard Patricia Kopatchinskaja's recent recording, now I listen to it often.


Yeah, and I buy Penthouse Magazine for the articles.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Just listened to the Adagio of the Hammerklavier again. Extraordinary!


Yes and the yearning within....proving that Beethoven was already a Romantic.


----------



## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

Because of this thread I started Mahler's 8th this version...






Maybe I don't remember ever really listening to it but it's incredible, the complex counterpoint giving a very Bachian feel but also a sense of scope and drama, dense orchestration, and the 20th century harmonies adding a slightly Wagnerian flavor. I may have to revisit which of his his my least favorite. Probably the first.


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> I feel sad for all of you.


I have the same problem (finding Debussy's orchestral stuff boring, except Fetes from Nocturnes, but piano stuff cool), and I do feel very sad for myself.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bruckner's Symphonies 0, 1, 2, 4, 5, and 9. But alas, I wasn't.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Mahler's 8th is terribly underwhelming in spite of having 1000 participants.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony. Dullsville.


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Mahler's 8th is terribly underwhelming in spite of having 1000 participants.


No dude it's not really that many, I counted while I watched.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Fugue Meister said:


> No dude it's not really that many, I counted while I watched.


Like counting sheep. Helps you to drop off! &#55357;&#56832;&#55357;&#56832;


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

DavidA said:


> Mahler's 8th is terribly underwhelming in spite of having 1000 participants.


Most performances don't.

*THAT SUBTITLE NEEDS TO DIE AN AWFUL DEATH AND BE CONSIGNED TO THE INNER CIRCLE OF HELL.*

The work is actually much more intimate and subtly written than one would expect given the "spectacle" implications of that appellation, and I think a lot of people want something out of it that it doesn't have.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Prokofiev's ballet, Cinderella. Disappointing after the incredible Romeo and Juliet.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Mahlerian said:


> Most performances don't.
> 
> *THAT SUBTITLE NEEDS TO DIE AN AWFUL DEATH AND BE CONSIGNED TO THE INNER CIRCLE OF HELL.*
> 
> The work is actually much more intimate and subtly written than one would expect given the "spectacle" implications of its title, and I think a lot of people want something out of it that it doesn't have.


While I agree with you in general, I have to say that the movie theatre streamed Dudamel performance in Caracas with the combined Los Angeles Philharmonic and Simon Bolivar Orchestras along with a chorus of about 1200 (!!) was very impressive, both in the intimate, subtle parts and the rest!


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

Mahlerian said:


> *THAT SUBTITLE NEEDS TO DIE AN AWFUL DEATH AND BE CONSIGNED TO THE INNER CIRCLE OF HELL.*


I'm sure you want the concept of "atonality" dead as well, but I'm interested hearing whether you wish it a painful death (and afterlife in Hell) or is just gentle euthanasia enough.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Dim7 said:


> I'm sure you want the concept of "atonality" dead as well, but I'm interested hearing whether you wish it a painful death (and afterlife in Hell) or is just gentle euthanasia enough.


I'm sure it'll die of natural causes eventually.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I have to withdraw my earlier post on the Schoenberg Violin Concerto. After 6 weeks, it surprisingly got to me this afternoon.

So I am no longer disappointed with it.

It is alright for banks to be closed tomorrow in celebration of this important revelation.


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

Dim7 said:


> I have the same problem (finding Debussy's orchestral stuff boring, except Fetes from Nocturnes, but piano stuff cool), and I do feel very sad for myself.


But at least you know this; and knowing is half the battle!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I think you guys are very bold to give your opinion that the Hammerklvier - one of the acknowledged masterpieces - is 'miscalculated' and 'lukewarm'. Or could it be a lack of understanding of the piece.

Not bold, just honest. It's possible to understand a piece - to see how it's put together and have an understanding of why the composer did it that way - and still be less than "blown away." What may seem an unconvincing formal strategy to me may not disturb you, and what may move you may affect me little if at all.

In the "Hammerklavier" adagio I hear (and see in the score) a premature and extended development of insufficiently distinctive material, creating an effect of meandering only partially mitigated by familiarity, and a quality of expression not sufficiently potent - for me - to compensate for the above. It's good that others are moved by it. That does not imply that someone less moved doesn't "understand" it.


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## Guest (May 11, 2015)

Two from me. In both cases my expectation of being "blown away" came from what I had read of the works prior to be hearing them, nothing else.

Berlioz - Symphonie Fantastique
Stravinsky - Rite of Spring

I'm sure they were "blowing" people away at the time of their completion and greater minds than mine can explain how revolutionary they were in the context of the their time. I accept that. But for _me_, listening with my 21st century ears...
I wasn't blown away.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

I remember being very disappointed the first times I heard Messiaen. I had made the error of reading previously, about him being influenced by Debussy's Pelléas and all these modes, etc. I expected craftful subtlety _'À la manière de Ravel'_ and what I got was nowhere near as sonorically attractive, often rather bombastic naiveté.


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## Kivimees (Feb 16, 2013)

dogen said:


> Two from me. In both cases my expectation of being "blown away" came from what I had read of the works prior to be hearing them, nothing else.
> 
> Berlioz - Symphonie Fantastique
> Stravinsky - Rite of Spring
> ...


I agree with your first, but not your second.


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## Guest (May 11, 2015)

Kivimees said:


> I agree with your first, but not your second.


Sure thing. I have these on CD and quite like them. It was only my prior reading that set up my expectation.


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## Kivimees (Feb 16, 2013)

dogen said:


> Sure thing. I have these on CD and quite like them. It was only my prior reading that set up my expectation.


Yes, for the Symphonie Fantastique I was simply told in advance to be "blown away". I first heard Rite of Spring without much prior influence.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The Samuel Barber Piano Concerto. 

Disappointing, after the wonderful Violin Concerto.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Harold in Italy by Berlioz.

Didn't hold my attention like the Symphonie Fantastique.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> In the "Hammerklavier" adagio I hear (and see in the score) a premature and extended development of insufficiently distinctive material, creating an effect of meandering only partially mitigated by familiarity, and a quality of expression not sufficiently potent - for me - to compensate for the above. It's good that others are moved by it. That does not imply that someone less moved doesn't "understand" it.




To me it is one of Beethoven's sublimest - and most original - expressions. Sorry you're not moved by it.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> To me it is one of Beethoven's sublimest - and most original - expressions. Sorry you're not moved by it.


How sorry are you?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Beethoven's Triple Concerto.

Two delightful movements sandwiching a half-assed slow movement. Disappointing.


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

Am I alone in being moved and impressed by the Hammerklavier's Adagio yet still able to understand how others might not be? It's not merely a case of "to each their own", I can see how others might not be moved by it in musical terms. The material isn't as rich as, say, the "Arietta" of the 32nd or the "Gesangvoll, Mit Innigster Empfindung" of the 30th. There's a "wandering" (or "meandering", for a more negative connotation, if you'd like, I prefer wandering.). Perhaps Woodduck would find that wandering quality justified if the musical material were more substantial. 

I agree with DavidA in that it is indeed one of his most original, and important I would add, expressions. I wouldn't want a single note changed.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Shostakovich Symphony No. 15. 

As his last symphony, I expected a really profound work.

Instead I get Rossini's William Tell Overture and Wagner's Ring Fate motif. Disappointing!


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony. Dullsville.


What??? Really???
Okay.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The Bach Brandenburg Concertos.

After falling in love with Bach's WTC, Keyboard Partitas and Goldberg Variations, I find the Brandenburg's rather pedestrian.

Disappointing.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

hpowders said:


> The Bach Brandenburg Concertos.
> 
> After falling in love with Bach's WTC, Keyboard Partitas and Goldberg Variations, I find the Brandenburg's rather pedestrian.
> 
> Disappointing.


Try a recording with brisker tempos. Florida pedestrians are sweaty and sluggish. New York pedestrians are much more alert and stimulating.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

DiesIraeVIX said:


> Am I alone in being moved and impressed by the Hammerklavier's Adagio yet still able to understand how others might not be? It's not merely a case of "to each their own", I can see how others might not be moved by it in musical terms. The material isn't as rich as, say, the "Arietta" of the 32nd or the "Gesangvoll, Mit Innigster Empfindung" of the 30th. There's a "wandering" (or "meandering", for a more negative connotation, if you'd like, I prefer wandering.). Perhaps Woodduck would find that wandering quality justified if the musical material were more substantial.
> 
> I agree with DavidA in that it is indeed one of his most original, and important I would add, expressions. I wouldn't want a single note changed.


I put on Richter's reading of it last night just to refresh my memory and I can't see for the life of me why people aren't moved by it. But people differ in their tastes and we must allow them that.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> How sorry are you?


Sorry for you that you're not moved by it.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Try a recording with brisker tempos. Florida pedestrians are sweaty and sluggish. New York pedestrians are much more alert and stimulating.


I have Richter (old school) and some HIP. Doesn't matter. After the keyboard works, I find these works a comedown.

I have some time on my hands. Perhaps Bach can help me learn how to play my organ.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

dholling said:


> What??? Really???
> Okay.


Doesn't float my boat. Love No. 4 though! :tiphat:


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

dholling said:


> What??? Really???
> Okay.


I'll go further than HPowders; the Tchaikovsky Manfred Symphony is mostly a piece of junk (the Scherzo is actually pretty interesting, though). Its debt to the far superior Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique is but one indication of how Tchaikovsky's inspiration lagged behind his conception.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I am a big fan of the Brahms String Sextets-lovely, melodic works; so easy to like.

So I was extremely disappointed after I sent away for the Brahms String Quintets, not having ever heard them before-to find them not as approachable; kind of dull actually.

Oh well. Live and learn!


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## Skilmarilion (Apr 6, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> the Tchaikovsky Manfred Symphony is mostly a piece of junk


Woah. We Don't see that kind of no-nonsense disdain from you often. And it stings. 

Any particular reasons?

And is it a case of it not working as a piece of music, a piece of program music, or both?


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Try a recording with brisker tempos. Florida pedestrians are sweaty and sluggish. New York pedestrians are much more alert and stimulating.


I agree that this is a good way to enjoy these pieces and that a slower, heavier approach can appear dull, but even so, I am with hpowders in preferring much of Bach's solo pieces for keyboard and violin to the Brandenburg's (though 'pedestrian' isn't the word I would chose in this context)


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Skilmarilion said:


> Woah. We Don't see that kind of no-nonsense disdain from you often. And it stings.
> 
> Any particular reasons?
> 
> And is it a case of it not working as a piece of music, a piece of program music, or both?


I'd say what stings is when a composer has extreme compositional preciosity- like say, 'Schoenberg'- and yet he still can't make his music sound beautiful- like compositionally 'imperfect' Tchaikovksy effortlessly can.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

hpowders said:


> Harold in Italy by Berlioz.
> 
> Didn't hold my attention like the Symphonie Fantastique.


I can see why you might be disappointed - it can seem a bit 'loose' to some people. They're completely different works, with different inspirations and different conceptions of what music might mean, but having said that, I find the 'Harold' theme to be a recurring _idee fixee_ in my life that keeps me going in many difficult situations (a bit like Septimus Harding and the imaginary cello in _The Warden_). I love the piece and have a number of versions. Probably the most coherent is that of Davis on Phillips


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Skilmarilion said:


> Woah. We Don't see that kind of no-nonsense disdain from you often. And it stings.
> 
> Any particular reasons?
> 
> And is it a case of it not working as a piece of music, a piece of program music, or both?


Both. I feel it's overlong, drawn out, given to bombast in place of substance, not thematically as interesting as Tchaikovsky's other symphonic works. The fugue in the finale feels particularly tired, and the work's conclusion unsatisfactory.

The scherzo is a fine movement, though - brilliant textures.


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

Dim7 said:


> I'm sure you want the concept of "atonality" dead as well, but I'm interested hearing whether you wish it a painful death (and afterlife in Hell) or is just gentle euthanasia enough.





Mahlerian said:


> I'm sure it'll die of natural causes eventually.


I hope you aren't annoyed by my view that atonality almost doesn't exist, but at least it is a bit _more existent_ than Santa Claus.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Mahlerian said:


> Both. I feel it's overlong, drawn out, given to bombast in place of substance, not thematically as interesting as Tchaikovsky's other symphonic works. The fugue in the finale feels particularly tired, and the work's conclusion unsatisfactory.
> 
> The scherzo is a fine movement, though - brilliant textures.


The same subjective impressions have of course been said of Mahler's _Third Symphony_ _in extenso_ at TC.


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> How sorry are you?


Probably as sorry as I am... for you I mean.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> I'll go further than HPowders; the Tchaikovsky Manfred Symphony is mostly a piece of junk (the Scherzo is actually pretty interesting, though). Its debt to the far superior Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique is but one indication of how Tchaikovsky's inspiration lagged behind his conception.


Junk is a very strong word and not really justified in my humble opinion. Granted that the finale is the weakest of the four movements that make up the symphony, the conception behind this work is as powerful as it is personal and original (how great Tchaikovsky was in showing empathy with the subject matter or persona he portrays through music as is the case here). It does fall behind Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique, but this is Tchaikovsky true to himself, and unapologetically so. And it is one of his most inspired compositions with the generally brilliant orchestration.

I must respectfully disagree here.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Fugue Meister said:


> Probably as sorry as I am... for you I mean.


I shouldn't think that anyone here is in need of being felt sorry for, except for those who, unfortunately for them, feel sorry.

Perhaps that's convoluted, but I'm not sorry.


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

To weigh in on the Manfred debate running. I'm with hpowders, & Mahlerian. 

Didn't Leonard Bernstein think it was junk as well?... 

Look no offense even LvB had some clunkers... what was he thinking with that "Wellington's Victory" garbage? Mahler with those first 4 symphonies... JK Mahlerian don't cast any stones yet. :devil:

... but just to be clear I was not kidding around about "Wellington's Victory"


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Fugue Meister said:


> To weigh in on the Manfred debate running. I'm with hpowders, & Mahlerian.
> 
> Didn't Leonard Bernstein think it was junk as well?...


So did Tchaikovsky, who seriously considered burning the score.

I can agree with DHolling that the work is well-orchestrated, though.


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

Mahlerian said:


> I'll go further than HPowders; the Tchaikovsky Manfred Symphony is mostly a piece of junk


But at least it's still cyclical.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> So did Tchaikovsky, who seriously considered burning the score.
> 
> I can agree with DHolling that the work is well-orchestrated, though.


Yes, it is true that both Tchaikovsky as well as Bernstein viewed the work as junk. But this was after the composer himself deemed the Symphony as his greatest composition by the time of its premiere. So typical of Tchaikovsky (then again he did something of a reversal by viewing his Fifth Symphony in a negative light initially before finally embracing it, even with a reservation or two).


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Oh, _The Messiah,_ by Mr. "I'm too good for umlaut dots", no doubt. It's the only one of the established great classics where I cannot hear anything of value whatsoever. But I originally came to it with nothing but _bona fide._


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Fugue Meister said:


> ... but just to be clear I was not kidding around about "Wellington's Victory"


I'm with you 112% on that. I'd rather listen to Pachelbel's Canon, Bolero, "It's a Small World After All" _and_ the complete "99 Bottles of Beer on the Wall," all on endless loop, than to ever suffer through that -- _thing_ again.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Mahlerian said:


> Both. I feel it's overlong, drawn out, given to bombast in place of substance, not thematically as interesting as Tchaikovsky's other symphonic works. The fugue in the finale feels particularly tired, and the work's conclusion unsatisfactory.
> 
> The scherzo is a fine movement, though - brilliant textures.


You forced me to go back and listen to _Manfred._ I largely agree with you; the scherzo is the best movement, though I think the andante is pretty well-made and appealing, and I like the final movement's fugue a little better than you do: it has a sort of Lisztian diablerie about it and fortunately doesn't overstay its welcome. I can't say that about the first movement, which after stating its themes keeps on doing so and never seems to want to get moving. Tchaikovsky's perennial sin of grinding out sequences when he can't think of anything else plagues the work and even, I think, affects the scherzo at one point.

I found enough to listen to that I'll probably check it out again some day. Since I've heard the piece before and wasn't expecting to be blown away, I wasn't disappointed. But T's numbered symphonies are better-built.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> You forced me to go back and listen to _Manfred._ I largely agree with you; the scherzo is the best movement, though I think the andante is pretty well-made and appealing, and I like the final movement's fugue a little better than you do: it has a sort of Lisztian diablerie about it and fortunately doesn't overstay its welcome. I can't say that about the first movement, which after stating its themes keeps on doing so and never seems to want to get moving. Tchaikovsky's perennial sin of grinding out sequences when he can't think of anything else plagues the work and even, I think, affects the scherzo at one point.
> 
> I found enough to listen to that I'll probably check it out again some day. Since I've heard the piece before and wasn't expecting to be blown away, I wasn't disappointed. But T's numbered symphonies are better-built.












Tchaikovsky's _Manfred Symphony_ has peaks and lulls not unlike Mahler's _Third Symphony_. I listen to sections of both when I put them on, and for the same 'sprawling' reasons.

I love the ending of the first movement of the _Manfred_ (especially _à la_ Svetlanov). The emotional pathos is at a fever pitch- and of course the second movement is pure exhilaration.

I would never have the reckless (and feckless) temerity to call the diamonds in the rough "junk" though.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Fugue Meister said:


> To weigh in on the Manfred debate running. I'm with hpowders, & Mahlerian.
> 
> Didn't Leonard Bernstein think it was junk as well?...
> 
> ...


The guy who wrote _Kaddish_?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

dholling said:


> Yes, it is true that both Tchaikovsky as well as Bernstein viewed the work as junk. But this was after the composer himself deemed the Symphony as his greatest composition by the time of its premiere. So typical of Tchaikovsky (then again he did something of a reversal by viewing his Fifth Symphony in a negative light initially before finally embracing it, even with a reservation or two).


But if you like it, that's all that matters. We all have our preferences.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

_Turangalila_ does nothing for me (so far)


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Weston said:


> I'm with you 112% on that. I'd rather listen to Pachelbel's Canon, Bolero, "It's a Small World After All" _and_ the complete "99 Bottles of Beer on the Wall," all on endless loop, than to ever suffer through that -- _thing_ again.


The captain of the Titanic thought the ship was 112% unsinkable.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Britten's Young Person's Guide to the Orchestra. Can't be mentioned in the same breath with Peter Grimes.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

hpowders said:


> But if you like it, that's all that matters. We all have our preferences.


Yeah, that's true, and well said. The price I must pay for being too much of an advocate, yet too defensive.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

hpowders said:


> Britten's Young Person's Guide to the Orchestra. Can't be mentioned in the same breath with Peter Grimes.


Young Person's Guide Peter Grimes. There, I did it.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Young Person's Guide Peter Grimes. There, I did it.


It was a figure of....oh never mind!


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

dholling said:


> Yeah, that's true, and well said. The price I must pay for being too much of an advocate, yet too defensive.


You're not too defensive at all. Why be mute when your values are being attacked?


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

hpowders said:


> Britten's Young Person's Guide to the Orchestra. Can't be mentioned in the same breath with Peter Grimes.


Is it supposed to be?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

hpowders said:


> It was a figure of....oh never mind!


Actually, I consider the Young Person's Guide a masterpiece and deserving of its popularity. Peter Grimes isn't bad either, but who believes in a rotten child abuser who sings beautiful mystical arias? I mean, c'mon now...


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Young Person's Guide Peter Grimes. There, I did it.


I didn't hear you breathe.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Actually, I consider the Young Person's Guide a masterpiece and deserving of its popularity. Peter Grimes isn't bad either, but who believes in a rotten child abuser who sings beautiful mystical arias? I mean, c'mon now...


Well, the "innuendo" was that he was a child abuser. He was rough, sure, but he was the victim of some really bad luck feeding the innuendo. A kid slips and falls overboard, so he's a murderer? Anyone who could sing about the constellations so beautifully is okay in my book! And I'm sorry he never got to marry Ellen.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Marschallin Blair said:


> You're not too defensive at all. Why be mute when your values are being attacked?


Good, fair, valid point. I'm not sure my values are being attacked per se (at least indirectly). But as a saying goes, less is more, and I tend to push my point across a tad excessively 
(well, sometimes :angel.

Thanks for bringing that up. In a forum like this with a whole variety of ideas, opinions, perspectives, at times expressed with passion or conviction (or beyond on occasion), sometimes it is not so hard to misread what is being said and taken aback or perhaps even offended by what was said. I'm always conscious of that, although any debate can become heated beyond anyone's control, let alone mine (like the Glazunov debate a couple of weeks back). Talking about holding on to your fort.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

dholling said:


> Good, fair, valid point. I'm not sure my values are being attacked per se (at least indirectly). But as a saying goes, less is more, and I tend to push my point across a tad excessively
> (well, sometimes :angel.
> 
> Thanks for bringing that up. In a forum like this with a whole variety of ideas, opinions, perspectives, at times expressed with passion or conviction (or beyond on occasion), sometimes it is not so hard to misread what is being said and taken aback or perhaps even offended by what was said. I'm always conscious of that, although any debate can become heated beyond anyone's control, let alone mine (like the Glazunov debate a couple of weeks back). Talking about holding on to your fort.


You're candid, fair, and honest- and that's good enough for _moi._ _;D_

We're all different. I tend to be more Blakean myself: "The Road of Excess leads to the Palace of Wisdom" and "Exuberance is beauty." That resonates with me.

My philosophy- in musical opining or otherwise- is: Go as far as you can go. And then when you've gone too far and crashed and burned- _then_ reel it in.

It works for me.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I didn't hear you breathe.


How could you?

Kubrick was tracking this terrifying scene to the third movement of Bartok's_ Concerto for Orchestra_.


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

As mentioned before, I think Also Sprach Zarathustra doesn't live up to the hype of the opening.

I usually like string concerti, but I was left flat and bored after listening to the Schnittke viola concerto. Unimpressed. Though I'm not really impressed with his other works either.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

senza sordino said:


> I think Also Sprach Zarathustra doesn't live up to the hype of the opening.


I do like that piece, but I certainly agree. How often have I wished I could detect some form of development, variation or reiteration of the opening as a thread carried through the work? Every time I've heard it


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bruckner Ninth Symphony. After the majestic Eighth, a disappointment for me.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Wagner's Das Rheingold. Musically, simply not in the same league with the three great Ring operas to follow.


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## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

I rarely expect to be "blown away" by something. It's not that I have low expectations, but I try not to get them too high. It's much more fun when something blows you away unexpectedly


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## Medtnaculus (May 13, 2015)

Busoni's big concerto. Never really did anything for me; however, perhaps it simply requires another listen or two.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

Tristan said:


> I rarely expect to be "blown away" by something. It's not that I have low expectations, but I try not to get them too high. It's much more fun when something blows you away unexpectedly


You're probably doing it right  but it is so hard not to have expectations about works by composers you already love or works by composers you're heard so many great things about.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Every Handel opera with the exceptions of Semele and Giulio Cesare. A lot of dull patches that these two don't have.


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## Überstürzter Neumann (Jan 1, 2014)

hpowders said:


> Every Handel opera with the exceptions of Semele and Giulio Cesare. A lot of dull patches that these two don't have.


Makes me assume that there were two Handels who both wrote opera, occasionaly over the same subject...
And since we are on opera, I had expected more by Beethoven's Fidelio. It is quite good, but I have just grown to expect so much by Beethoven.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Überstürzter Neumann said:


> Makes me assume that there were two Handels who both wrote opera, occasionaly over the same subject...
> And since we are on opera, I had expected more by Beethoven's Fidelio. It is quite good, but I have just grown to expect so much by Beethoven.


The finale of Fidelio is quite wonderful. However, for me there are too many tedious spots and I find it difficult to listen to the whole thing.

So much melodic inspiration in Semele and Giulio Cesare. How could he be so uninspired in composing so many other operas? Yes. It almost seems like it can't be the same composer.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Schubert Unfinished Symphony. One of the dullest pieces of music I have ever encountered.

Seriously over-hyped.


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

hpowders said:


> Schubert Unfinished Symphony. One of the dullest pieces of music I have ever encountered.
> 
> Seriously over-hyped.


I believe this thread is for pieces that you _expected_ to be blown away by but weren't, considering your 1,797 previous posts of blasting Schubert, are you sure you expected to be blown away by his "Unfinished" symphony?


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

LOL. I think the "expected to be blown away" part has long since disappeared and its juts a thread of works people dislike.

No matter what the original topic, by page four, every thread transforms to either "stuff I like" or "stuff I don't like."


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## Skilmarilion (Apr 6, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Bruckner Ninth Symphony. After the majestic Eighth, a disappointment for me.


Despite the term _Feierlich, Misterioso_ more or less being the definition of 'majestic' ...

:tiphat:


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

GreenMamba said:


> LOL. I think the "expected to be blown away" part has long since disappeared and its juts a thread of works people dislike.
> 
> No matter what the original topic, by page four, every thread transforms to either "stuff I like" or "stuff I don't like."


Luckily that doesn't apply to STI... I think?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

After the great Prokofiev Fifth Symphony, I was expecting big things from his Sixth, but alas, those feelings never materialized.

Disappointing.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Like a few others I wasn't blown away by the Rite of Spring. It's a cool piece of stabs and jabs with nice quieter moments in between. I like its sound, dissonance and rhythms, but it doesn't pull me in and transport me somewhere. It lingers in the same place the entire time. Very impressive, but forever earthbound.

I was completely blown away by Mahler 8, but it depends a lot on the performance and recording.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Many many years ago, when messing around with my four-track cassette deck I hit on what I thought was a really clever idea for a sound collage: a Mahlerian nightmare in which the underlying track would be the middle movement of the 2nd symphony (a constant return to tedious perpetual-motion is basically how my worst nightmares go), and overlaid on it would be snatches of other pieces of Mahler's music.
I was amazed a couple of years later to read that Berio had already done something similar in his Sinfonia, so obviously I was keen to hear what an actual composer could achieve...

... sorry, everyone who recently voted Berio's Sinfonia the top composition of the last 65 years, but I greatly preferred my shoddy amateur effort...


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bartok Sixth String Quartet. Not as rich in musical ideas as the first five. A farewell, I guess.
Anyhow, I wanted and expected more.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

DeepR said:


> Like a few others I wasn't blown away by the Rite of Spring. It's a cool piece of stabs and jabs with nice quieter moments in between. I like its sound, dissonance and rhythms, but it doesn't pull me in and transport me somewhere. It lingers in the same place the entire time. Very impressive, but forever earthbound.


You know, I agree with this and never admitted it even to myself until just now. I like the other ballets more than the Rite, and his later stuff more than all of them. I _respect_ the Rite greatly, but it doesn't really move me that much. Important caveat: I've only ever heard the music, never seen the ballet.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Beethoven's Middle Quartets.

They don't grab me like the delightful first six and profound late quartets.

Not saying they aren't great. They just don't "grab" me. My mind wanders.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

isorhythm said:


> You know, I agree with this and never admitted it even to myself until just now. I like the other ballets more than the Rite, and his later stuff more than all of them. I _respect_ the Rite greatly, but it doesn't really move me that much. Important caveat: I've only ever heard the music, never seen the ballet.


I've felt this way too, for a long time. _Le Sacre du Printemps_ is a striking conception, it was an original gesture, it shook up the music world, and it spawned imitations and echoes in the works of other composers. Is it also a fantastically meaningful work of art? Relatively speaking, I don't think so. The music with the most staying power for me has some complexity or subtlety to its message. _Rite_ seems to me much ado about rather little. It may not be Stravinsky's "Bolero," exactly, but it's likewise disproportionately celebrated while being less rich emotionally, more superficial in its appeal, than other works of its composer. I suppose that's part of why such works are popular, but I'd much rather hear (and see, in a good production) the earlier _Firebird_ or the later _Apollo_.


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## TwoPhotons (Feb 13, 2015)

Busoni's Piano Concerto. You'd think reading the program notes it is the greatest work of art of all time. Wasn't particularly moved by it though. However, some moments of the tarantella and the climax in "Pezzo serioso" were quite interesting.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

DeepR said:


> Like a few others I wasn't blown away by the Rite of Spring. It's a cool piece of stabs and jabs with nice quieter moments in between. I like its sound, dissonance and rhythms, but it doesn't pull me in and transport me somewhere. It lingers in the same place the entire time. Very impressive, but forever earthbound.
> 
> I was completely blown away by Mahler 8, but it depends a lot on the performance and recording.


I think too many performances (recorded or otherwise) of Stravinsky's "Rite" fail to really project the barbarity of the work as compellingly as Gergiev (even Bernstein understood this well, namely that the ballet is a grotesque work of musical art more than anything else). A reviewer of Gramophone sums it up aptly in saying "So many of the score's darker workings have a striking profile here - tubas bellowing strange moans‚ the bass drum sending shock waves around the performance space‚ the lower strings in 'Spring Rounds' almost 'exhaling' their notes‚ and‚ for once‚ giving a proper foundation to that most significant of quiet chords - the one where the Sage kisses the earth. Indeed‚ 'Earth' and the 'elemental' seem not so much cultivated in this performance‚ as an inherent part of it...........Evocative dynamic shadings - and there are plenty of them - sound entirely natural too."

So I think like everything else, a recording (or recordings) can make all the difference in how we view a certain piece, for better or for worse.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

After Debussy's wonderfully effervescent L'isle joyeuse, I expected to be blown away by most of the piano preludes, but fell asleep instead.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Debussy's complete Piano Etudes.

Except for the first one, they do nothing for me.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

^ For solo piano music, I've only heard Debussy's Préludes so far.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Janacek's Mass. Thought it was dead boring. Mind you, I think the same of all his music.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Janacek's Mass. Thought it was dead boring. Mind you, I think the same of all his music.


Let it go.

The Parthian shafts are missing anyway.

The _Glagolitic's_ been immortalized.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

After the greatness of the Symphonies 1 and 4 by Brahms, 2 and 3 are distinct let-downs for me.

Too greedy? Perhaps.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

After the sensational La Valse, I was let down by Ravel's Daphnis et Chloé.

Nice, but not nice enough!


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