# Avant-Garde Symphonies?



## neoshredder

What are some of your favorite Avant-Garde Symphonies?


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## Sid James

*Penderecki's First Symphony *is pretty good. Starts and ends with this rattle noise and crack of a whip. Very colourful score. Like it more than his neo-romantic symphonies, but they're okay but not as interesting as this though. Don't fully 'get' it but enjoy the ride. Don't know if it's exactly avant-garde or just experimental (difference between them can be a bit blurry, I think). Here's the whole thing under a guy Penderecki taught, Antoni Wit.


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## violadude

Hmm that is an interesting question. Most pieces that are considered "Avant-Garde" aren't symphonies. The first piece that came to my mind was also Penderecki's 1st symphony.


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## neoshredder

Sid James said:


> *Penderecki's First Symphony *is pretty good. Starts and ends with this rattle noise and crack of a whip. Very colourful score. Like it more than his neo-romantic symphonies, but they're okay but not as interesting as this though. Don't fully 'get' it but enjoy the ride. Don't know if it's exactly avant-garde or just experimental (difference between them can be a bit blurry, I think). Here's the whole thing under a guy Penderecki taught, Antoni Wit.


I'm 19 minutes into the Symphony. Exactly what I was looking for. Thanks! For some reason, this is easier for me to get into than most Romantic Symphonies.


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## neoshredder

They don't have to be named symphonies. Just have a orchestral approach. Like a Concerto Grosso I think is similar or Concerto for Orchestra.


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## Sid James

neoshredder said:


> I'm 19 minutes into the Symphony. Exactly what I was looking for. Thanks! For some reason, this is easier for me to get into than most Romantic Symphonies.


I'm hearing that same youtube recording now. Haven't heard the work in ages. But I've got a different one on cd, under the composer. It's more full on than I remembered. I'm glad you're listening to it, getting something out of it, he goes through the whole variety of textures in his orchestral palette. It's kind of colourful, psychological, searching, even filmic (Have been listening to the _Jaws_ soundtrack by John Williams lately and parts of this remind me of that).


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## Arsakes

What does an Avant-Garde Symphony look like?

You can help me with telling which Sibelius, Shostakovitch, R.V.Williams Symphonies is look like that (Because I have all of their symphonies)


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## emiellucifuge

Lutoslawski's Symphonies, particularly the third.


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## neoshredder

Arsakes said:


> What does an Avant-Garde Symphony look like?
> 
> You can help me with telling which Sibelius, Shostakovitch, R.V.Williams Symphonies is look like that (Because I have all of their symphonies)


Modern sounding. Ligeti, Schnittke, and Messiaen come to mind. Shostakovich comes closest out of that list.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Schnittke no. 1
ComposerOfAvantGarde no. 6 (although it still only exists in sketch form)


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## PetrB

Not to beleaguer a point, but to put the perspective on 'why' I've listed the below: Mozart's D minor piano concerto and Beethoven's Seventh and Ninth Symphonies were 'avant-garde' when they were premiered.

O.K. Now to the 20th century....

Schoenberg ~ Kammersymphonie no. 1, op. 9 (1906) [Turgid, Gnarly, and fun.]

Alexander Scriabin ~ Le Poème de l'extase (1908) / Prometheus; Le poeme du feu (1911) -- Wildly eccentric, completely 'over the top' and also great fun.

Igor Stravinsky ~ Le Sacre du Printemps (1914) -- 'nuff said.

Charles Ives ~ Symphony No. 4 (1916) -- 'nuff said.

Rued Langgaard ~ Music of the Spheres (1918) -- reportedly, when Ligeti first saw this score, he said he didn't know he was a Langgaard imitator. --













Olivier Messiaen ~ Turangalîla Symphony (1948) -- a grand scale 10 movement work, large orchestra, piano, ondes martinot
V; 'Joie du Sang des Étoiles' -- an ecstatic dance-like movement 





Edgard Varèse ~ Amériques (1921; revised 1927) -- piece starts @ 4'00'' --





György Ligeti: 
Atmospheres (1961) 




Lontano (1967)





Elliott Carter ~ A Symphony of Three Orchestras (1976)





Friederich Cerha ~ Spiegel (a series of Seven large-scale orchestral movements, great music, sculptural, texture-based. I find it surprising it took decades for them to be recorded for dissemination.) Can't find a date, but ca 1970's --
Spiegel I





Witold Lutoslawski ~ symphony No. 3 (1983)

George Friederich Haas ~ In vain (2000) "a monumental chamber work for 24 players." -- to be played in complete darkness, the ensemble members necessarily then all playing from memory. The work is contiguous and runs a little over one hour. -- Gorgeous.


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## DeepR

PetrB said:


> Olivier Messiaen ~ Turangalîla Symphony (1948) -- a grand scale 10 movement work, large orchestra, piano, ondes martinot
> V; 'Joie du Sang des Étoiles' -- an ecstatic dance-like movement


Wow, that's pretty insane. I like it.  (and you thought Scriabin was over the top)


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## Jeremy Marchant

Arsakes said:


> What does an Avant-Garde Symphony look like?
> 
> You can help me with telling which Sibelius, Shostakovitch, R.V.Williams Symphonies is look like that (Because I have all of their symphonies)


Well, not any of those.

I don't think avant garde merely means modern. So, I would exclude Messiaen too.

This is a cracker:


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## SuperTonic

Corigliano's Symphony No. 1










It doesn't really sound that avante garde to me, but he does use aleotoric techniques throughout the work, so I think it qualifies.


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## PetrB

Avant-Garde literally means in the lead, the most forward-looking or sounding in its own time. 

"a·vant-garde (ä vänt-gärd , v änt-). n. A group active in the invention and application of new techniques in a given field, especially in the arts. adj." One might as well make that the very newest techniques, and add in big upper case letters, "Innovation."

That excludes a lot of just fine composers outside the bounds of "Avant-Garde," because those like Shostakovich, were not at the cutting edge, forefront of what was 'newest.' Bach was not 'Avant-Garde,' Beethoven was


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## Jeremy Marchant

PetrB said:


> Avant-Garde literally means in the lead, the most forward-looking or sounding in its own time... Bach was not 'Avant-Garde,' Beethoven was


Exactly...


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## elgar's ghost

Would Webern's symphony count?


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## Ukko

Lees Symphony No. 2. Everything Lees did was avant-garde, though that 'cutting edge' may have been his.


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## Moira

Hilltroll72 said:


> Lees Symphony No. 2. Everything Lees did was avant-garde, though that 'cutting edge' may have been his.


I need to add this to my "must hear" list.


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## Ukko

Moira said:


> I need to add this to my "must hear" list.


I 'get into' this symphony maybe because I am a Bartók 'appreciator', and when this symphony was composed (1958) Lees hadn't quite absorbed what he took from Bartók into his toolkit; so the influence can be detected. I also recommend the 5th symphony; it could even be a better 'entry point'. The 4th symphony, "Memorial Candles", is pretty single-focused; effective, but not mind-stirring.


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## Delicious Manager

Here are a few 'avant-garde' pieces which are true symphonies and not yet (I think) mentioned:

Alfred Schnittke - Symphony No 1






Rodion Shchedrin - Symphony No 2






Any of Per Nørgård's 7 symphonies (here's No 7)






Edison Denisov - Symphony






Hans Werner Henze - Symphony No 7


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## Delicious Manager

Arvo Pärt - Symphony No 1






... and No 2






Henri Dutilleux - Symphony No 2


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## gr8gunz

These so-called Avante Garde symphonies are perfect examples of the Emperors Clothes in audio format. It only takes an honest little kid to see the obvious and have the guts to say so. These works are nothing but noise and random sounds produced by an orchestra. I think I will record myself banging away on a piano and post it here as a forward thinking "Avante Garde" piano sonata.


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## Delicious Manager

gr8gunz said:


> These so-called Avante Garde symphonies are perfect examples of the Emperors Clothes in audio format. It only takes an honest little kid to see the obvious and have the guts to say so. These works are nothing but noise and random sounds produced by an orchestra. I think I will record myself banging away on a piano and post it here as a forward thinking "Avante Garde" piano sonata.


It may not be to your taste (and that's fine), but it might just be that your ears are not experienced enough to appreciate music that challenges you a little.


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## tdc

PetrB said:


> Avant-Garde literally means *in the lead*, the most forward-looking or sounding in its own time.
> 
> Bach was not 'Avant-Garde,' Beethoven was


Bach was so far in the lead it just wasn't realized in his time. Like runner's in a race who feel they may be first to cross the finish line, not realizing the runner behind them is about to lap them for the tenth time. That is what Bach was like in his time.


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## Ukko

tdc said:


> Bach was so far in the lead it just wasn't realized in his time. Like runner's in a race who feel they may be first to cross the finish line, not realizing the runner behind them is about to lap them for the tenth time. That is what Bach was like in his time.


I have read accounts of rumors (how authoritative is that!) about young musicians in Mediterranean countries in the mid 18th C, who were fascinated with counterpoint and working to perfect it. Then in one way or another they became acquainted with Bach's work - and resolved to find other ways to make their names in music.


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## samurai

With apologies proferred beforehand in all humility to PetriB., would Philip Glass and his minimalist approach to music qualify under the avant garde criteria mentioned earlier  :scold:


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## Jeremy Marchant

samurai said:


> With apologies proferred beforehand in all humility to PetriB., would Philip Glass and his minimalist approach to music qualify under the avant garde criteria mentioned earlier  :scold:


Well, he was avant garde when he started his minimalist method in 1967 but, as he became less and less rigorous (inevitable, of course) and, as he was increasingly copied and imitated, I guess he ended up as a father figure of a mainstream sub-genre. Certinly his symphonies could not be described as cutting edge, or indeed adding anything that his prior orchestral works hadn't done better (eg compare _The light_ with symphony 1).


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## PetrB

Hey, this is an oversight about which I feel remiss - major work, wonderful piece:

Luciano Berio ~ Sinfonia (1968)
Here is the 3rd of its four movements - the crux of the piece..


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## Delicious Manager

tdc said:


> Bach was so far in the lead it just wasn't realized in his time. Like runner's in a race who feel they may be first to cross the finish line, not realizing the runner behind them is about to lap them for the tenth time. That is what Bach was like in his time.


Uhh. NO! Bach was old-fashioned even in his own time (remember the Classical era that was already underway while he was writing his last works?). His son Carl Philipp Emanuel was a pathfinder, but JS was the last of his kind. Yes, he was the most remarkable 'old-fashioned' composer of all time (his and subsequent times), but it is sheer folly to suggest he was 'in the lead' in the way you suggest.


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## Guest

Wow, you all do have fun, don't you?

There's even the obligatory anti-modernist rant (complete with the threadbare reference to the Andersen story).

Anyway, here's some more fodder for neoshredder.

Galina Ustvolskaya's symphonies, probably not even recognizable as "symphonies."

Avet Terterian's symphonies. (I only know 3, 4, 7, and 8. There is a recording of 6, if I recall, but impossible to find. I wonder if Martin has any Terterian? I'll have to check that database of his.)

Roger Reynolds' symphonies. Delightful pieces by a former avant gardist. Not as avant as his earlier work, but still more forward looking than Simpson or Pettersen. More electronics, too.

Francis Dhomont, _Frankenstein Symphony,_ so-called because it's bits and pieces of music by his students and by himself. The advantages of having electroacoustic soundfiles, eh? (Never mind that Dr. Frankenstein in the book creates his monster from scratch. There's no grave robbing in it at all. And no piecing together of body parts. In fact, I know of no other story that Hollywood got more consistently wrong. There's no scene from the movie that has any relation to the book at all.)

But I digress.

Robert Ashley's _In Memoriam Crazy Horse_ symphony might qualify, though it's not as avant as his later work.

Sophia Gubaidulina has a twelve movement symphony that's quite delightful. _'Stimmen... Verstummen'_

And if we're simply counting large scale ensemble music, Cage's _Atlas Eclipticalis_ and any of his number pieces past Fifty-eight certainly qualify, as do many of Feldman's pieces.


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## Sid James

samurai said:


> With apologies proferred beforehand in all humility to PetriB., would Philip Glass and his minimalist approach to music qualify under the avant garde criteria mentioned earlier  :scold:


I would add to Jeremy's answer to you samurai that Glass and the other USA minimalists where basically reacting against the European avant-garde. Or at least not interested in it. They were not much influenced by guys like Webern or serialism, but more into things like world music (eg. Indian, African) and also what was going on in rock and jazz (esp. experimental areas of those then, eg. bebop and all it's offshoots). So their focus was outside Europe, it was America and the rest of the world.

I largely associate avant-garde with European classical music from about 1945-1960's. That was the period of _total serialism _and all that. But it was not really a trend that went anywhere, witness how none of the composes above can be described as that, really. & many of them went off in different directions (eg. Arvo Part's first symphony has some wierdish things like the sounds of children's toys, but his mature style is that _Holy Minimalist _ tintintabuli type of thing ; but I do like a serial leaning work of his, called _Collage uber BACH_, a bit like Baroque meets the style of the mid 20th century).


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Delicious Manager said:


> Uhh. NO! Bach was old-fashioned even in his own time (remember the Classical era that was already underway while he was writing his last works?). His son Carl Philipp Emanuel was a pathfinder, but JS was the last of his kind. Yes, he was the most remarkable 'old-fashioned' composer of all time (his and subsequent times), but it is sheer folly to suggest he was 'in the lead' in the way you suggest.


The Art of Fugue could have been written in the 1690s.


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## tdc

Delicious Manager said:


> Uhh. NO! Bach was old-fashioned even in his own time (remember the Classical era that was already underway while he was writing his last works?). His son Carl Philipp Emanuel was a pathfinder, but JS was the last of his kind. Yes, he was the most remarkable 'old-fashioned' composer of all time (his and subsequent times), but it is sheer folly to suggest he was 'in the lead' in the way you suggest.


I don't agree, because my post didn't suggest anywhere in it that he was in the lead due to radical innovations or changes...there are other ways to lead musically, and I believe Bach took his own path, and his music _was_ the music of the future, more so than it was the music of his time. I'm not arguing Bach was Avante-Garde in the way many use the term today, but he was in terms of being a leader and pointing the way to future generations of composers. He dramatically tied together and enriched existing forms, in incredibly rich and complex ways, not fully grasped in his time. His influence on later major composers was massive. I feel he did what he did well enough to make most other composers 'innovations' look like gimmicks and novelties in comparison to his musical statements, which no one before him had come close to. In this sense his accomplishments were unique for his time. Bach's music this far into the future still has massive widespread appeal within the intellectual classical music community, in a time when the symphonic form is somewhat dying down. Perhaps he wasn't cutting edge in the same way as Beethoven, but to suggest he wasn't the true musical leader of his time (regardless of who knew about it then) I think is folly.


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## tdc

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> The Art of Fugue could have been written in the 1690s.


???? What do you mean by this?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

tdc said:


> ???? What do you mean by this?


By that comment I'm implying that Bach's compositional style, however great it may be, was behind the times. I do believe that what Bach could do with harmony and counterpoint was outstanding and influential, but if the lived thirty or so years earlier than he did and composed his music earlier than he did I don't think he would have shocked anyone by being too ahead of his time, too "avant-garde" in the true sense of the word.


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## tdc

^ You are right CoaG, Bach was not Avante-Garde, but imo was a musical leader.

Anyway, I've derailed this thread long enough, so here is a Schnittke Symphony I really enjoy:


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## Vaneyes

Krenek, Enescu.


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## palJacky

I've always been partial to Peter maxwell davies.
I don't know if it is 'avant garde' but certainly modern enough, his ninth is being premiered this summer.


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## DeepR

Steve Roach - The Magnificent Void

Near the end of the 20th century electronic ambient synthesist Steve Roach, one of the world's leading innovators in music, created a masterpiece that I would call an _electronic avant-garde symphony_.

The Magnificent Void takes certain elements and ideas of avant-garde, electronic and ambient music to its most extreme and, in a way, to its final destination. It's not so much music as it is a world of sound, completely free of musical form and instrumental limitations. Its depth, nuance and beauty only reveals itself after listening many times (it's most certainly not new age or easy listening material). 
The Magnificent Void is a vast, endless world of sound where time is suspended, allowing the listener to enter a state of peace and tranquility. This is the music that truly makes you feel one with the cosmos and all you can do is marvel at its beauty.
Someday The Magnificent Void will get the recognition it deserves as one of the crowning achievements in modern music.
(or not.. )


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## violadude

DeepR said:


> Steve Roach - The Magnificent Void
> 
> Near the end of the 20th century electronic ambient synthesist Steve Roach, one of the world's leading innovators in music, created a masterpiece that I would call an _electronic avant-garde symphony_.
> 
> The Magnificent Void takes certain elements and ideas of avant-garde, electronic and ambient music to its most extreme and, in a way, to its final destination.* It's not so much music as it is a world of sound*, completely free of musical form and instrumental limitations. Its depth, nuance and beauty only reveals itself after listening many times (it's most certainly not new age or easy listening material).
> The Magnificent Void is a vast, endless world of sound where time is suspended, allowing the listener to enter a state of peace and tranquility. This is the music that truly makes you feel one with the cosmos and all you can do is marvel at its beauty.
> Someday The Magnificent Void will get the recognition it deserves as one of the crowning achievements in modern music.
> (or not.. )


Folks don't take kiindly to that kinda language 'round here.


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## MJongo

Ives: Symphony No. 4
Varese: Ameriques
Messiaen: Turangalila-symphonie
Carter: Symphony of Three Orchestras
Lutoslawski: Symphony No. 3
Boulez: Repons


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## MJongo

Steve Roach is amazing. Dreamtime Return and Structures From Silence are also great works.


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## neoshredder

I realize Symphony isn't a popular name for Avant-Garde. Almost an oxymoron. Way more popular for the Classical and Romantic eras. I guess orchestral works and actual names for these pieces are more popular nowadays. I'll expand the thread for suggestions on Avant-Garde orchestral works. Obviously Ligeti orchestral works is the first choice which is why I just ordered it under Latest Purchases.  I definitely gotta check out that Steve Roach.


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