# Complete Symphonic Works



## Colin M (May 31, 2018)

Good evening. I am new to the forum. I got reacquainted to classical music this past January when out in LA at a medical conference I was fortunate to catch Dudamel conducting the First Symphony of Brahms. It transported me back to college and Art History 101 (‘darkness at noon’) where Professor Smith juxtaposed the storm passage from Beethoven 6 by Klemperer (and I think New Philharmonia?) against the John Constable painting Weymouth Bay with storm approaching. That was a long time ago... but it worked as I minored in Art History and succeeded in medicine.

I now am looking at classical music from a totally different perspective and am presently consuming Karajan and his Brahms and Schubert Symphony cycles with the Berlin. 

Can some one feed my compulsion and direct me to a similar CD collection of the Beethoven 9

Appreciate you, Colin M


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Welcome to the forum. I'm sure there are plenty members who will answer this question, but many will not see it in this sub-forum. I've asked a mod to move it to the main Classical Music Discussion forum.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Karajan recorded a number of different Beethoven 9 cycles and this is one of the more highly regarded ones:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Larkenfield said:


> Karajan recorded a number of different Beethoven 9 cycles and this is one the more highly regarded ones:


With the cheapness of CDs these days one could do well to invest in Karajan's 1963 and 1977 cycles. They tend to complement each other. Some swear by his 1950s cycle for EMI and his later one (1985) can be ignored, not that it is bad, but as it doesn't surpass any of the others. It does contain a superb Eroica, however, which is certainly worth a listen if you can pick it up second hand


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Was it Karajan you wanted? If the answer is "not necessarily" then there are so many options and you will get lots of recommendations here. You could do a lot worse than Bernstein or Harnoncourt but actually there are so many very worthwhile Beethoven cycles (including the Karajans recommended above) and each is so different. In my opinion there are quite a few bad ones, too. So it might be worth sampling the one you are tempted to go for.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

I reckon there must be at least sixty complete Beethoven symphony cycles out there, so choice is either great or bewildering, depending on your point of view. Four of these cycles are Karajan, recorded late '50s, early '60s, mid to late '70s, and mid '80s respectively. My preference is for the '70s one, but I suspect I am in the minority on that!

If you have a look on the orchestral section here, you might find a series of surveys of Beethoven cycles done by a chap called Granate. These are well worth reading, and even if I disagree with several points there, a dedicated and comprehensive and loving job has been done there. The fact that the surveys have not got 100% agreement shows this not a straightforward choice!


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

Beethoven's is probably the most recorded symphony cycle in music, so you're spoiled for choices. 

Karajan's 1960s set is probably the most famous, and it makes for an excellent introductory set. It may not be the best in any one area, but it's excellent all-around with a conductor and orchestra who knew the music intimately.

Klemperer's is another contender. His is Beethoven in the grand romantic tradition; darker, heavier and slower than Karajan, but arguably more profound. 

Bernstein is another solid recommendation. He made a wild and emotive set in New York and a more polished one in Vienna. Both are excellent, perhaps more emotional than the others.

I also love Szell's set. If the above are cosmic Beethoven, Szell is the Earthy alternative; very crisp, precise, fast and exciting. I love how he enlivens the more "minor" symphonies (1-2, 4, 8).

Blomstedt's with Dresden is another great set, perhaps my favorite for the combo of sound quality and performance. More than anything it's the beauty that shines through here.

For optimal sound and visuals, Thielemann has a blu-ray set that's quite awesome. The performances are more variable in quality, but that's because Thielemann takes some chances, but I think he succeeds more often than not.

Finally, Furtwangler is, IMO, the best Beethoven conductor on record. He doesn't have a "cycle" as we think of them, but he recorded all of them at various times and places; many rank among the greatest recordings in music history, including the '44 3rd and the '51 and '54 9ths. The set of his wartime recordings (on the Music & Arts label) is a must hear for the unmatched, unbridled intensity. Sadly, most all of these are in poor, mono sound.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Robert Pickett said:


> I reckon there must be at least sixty complete Beethoven symphony cycles out there, so choice is either great or bewildering, depending on your point of view.!


You can pretty much double that figure. I have 108 complete cycles, a few almost complete ones (Barshai & Giulini 1-8, Celi, etc) plus many partial sets that I know are complete but out of print. I haven't added them all up but I'm pretty sure there's around 140 LvB cycles. I'll let you know when I break off for the summer and add them all up.

Colin M, it all depends what you're looking for in your Beethoven. There's big, grand Beethoven cycles on modern instruments, HIP on original instruments, HIP on modern instruments, sets played with smaller forces (usually HIP), etc. Then there's the question of tempi....slow and solid, mid-European and mid-paced, metronome markings.......so many different styles of performance. For a full range of these try these suggestions for size:

Celibidache
Klemperer
Blomstedt (Dresden)
Bohm
Karajan 1963
Norrington (Hannsler)
Gardiner
Chailly
Immerseel
Haselbock (not a complete cycle yet but very interesting accounts)
Stangel

These are just a few examples. I'm not saying these are my favourites (there's at least one here I dislike a lot). They are just a few suggestions to get you going. Speeds range from very slow (Celibidache) to near metronome markings (Chailly) with lots of different things in-between. Good luck and enjoy your listening.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

108 complete cycles? Blimey! Thought I was bad with "only" three dozen!

Of those (!) my favourites have to be:
Eugen Jochum (EMI)
Andre Cluytens (EMI)
Paul Kletzki (Supraphon)
Bruno Walter (Sony)

Then 
Emmanuel Krivine (Naive)
Jos van Immerseel

among HIP sets


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Robert Pickett said:


> 108 complete cycles? Blimey! Thought I was bad with "only" three dozen!


I was on 106 but I've just found another 2 on my HD that I'd put in my Brahms Cycles folder. I've got at least another 10 that are near complete. Yes, I'm a bit obsessed. I even keep the ones I've never liked cos who knows? One day I may change my mind. I got asked a while back to list them and I will do in the summer. I just don't have the time right now. It's not an easy job.


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## Colin M (May 31, 2018)

Thanks for the rapid and warm welcome. I really appreciate the guidance!


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## Colin M (May 31, 2018)

Thank you. I will figure it out with practice and time I am sure : )


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

No one wants Barenboim on Warner? Despite owning many sets over the years, the Barenboim seems to have it all: superb playing, marvelous conducting - not a dud in the bunch - and terrific sound. I think it's the best overall set out there right now. Barenboim has delivered several symphony sets that are really top-notch and hard to beat: Brahms and Schumann. The Bruckner is ok, not as thrilling as others, like Karajan. Barenboim and Beethoven! Go for it.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Tbh, mbhaub I could have mentioned lots and lots of Beethoven cycles. I was just trying to suggest a few diverse cycles for Colin to sample. As you said, the Barenboim one is very good (very much big-band LvB) and one that I rate highly. We're like kids in a sweetshop with Beethoven cycles. It's a shame some composers aren't blessed with multiple symphony cycles (eg Gliere). It would be nice to have a lot more choice.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Merl said:


> ... I have 108 complete cycles,


It is comforting to learn, that I am only half-obsessed, because I only own about 50 cycles.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Hi Colin. Welcome to TC. No one has mentioned Riccardo Muti and Philadelphia Orchestra, but in saying that, also love Beethoven 4 & 7 by ASMF and Joahua Bell directing from violin.


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## Colin M (May 31, 2018)

Sorry for my novice question but what is HIP? This is incredibly helpful mind you.


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## Joe B (Aug 10, 2017)

Colin M said:


> Sorry for my novice question but what is HIP? This is incredibly helpful mind you.


HIP = Historically Informed Performance

more info *HERE*


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## Colin M (May 31, 2018)

Thank you, joe B


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

I want to make one more general suggestion: I just finished listening to Szell's recordings of Beethoven's Overtures. These are superb works in their own right and remind me much of the single-movement orchestral works and incidental music of the romantic era. Leonore (all versions), Egmont, and Coriolan probably being the best of them. Whatever set of the symphonies you get, I'd suggest either getting one with the overtures or supplementing that set with a recording of them.


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## Colin M (May 31, 2018)

Next project Eva : ). Thanks!


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

BTW, if you want an all-guns-blazing-balls-to-the-wall Beethoven 9th check out Munch's raucous 9th. Some refer to it as 'vulgar' but damn it's exciting. Shame they have never given this a really decent clean up as the sound is a little constricted, especially in the 4th movement.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

My personal favorites:

Immersel (period instruments)

Mackerras (Liverpool cycle)

Bernstein (Vienna cycle) - the DVDs are great too. You really need to watch Bernstein to appreciate him.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

*Welcome!*

Hello Colin and Welcome to Talk Classical. I want to thank Robert Pickett for the heads-up too. I don't know if you've seen already my challenges on Beethoven symphonies. I've posted here 5 of the 6 tables (I still have to translate the 6th table) and they have plenty of options. The thing is that I don't know what you are looking for. *What kind of sound do you like in the orchestra?* (brilliant Decca 60s, bold and bumpy DG, tender Cluytens Berlin, 90s Digital in Wand Hamburg, HD sound in Chailly LGO, Haitink LSO and Abbado BPO, and HIP style by Gardiner or Immerseel).

If you want to own CDs without previous experience, Gardiner and Blomstedt Dresden are very inexpensive sets these days. For a few more dollars, you could get contenders like Karajan Berlin 60s, Konwitschny Leipzig (new Eterna remasters) or Wand NDR Sinfonieorchester. I think this is all I can say. Here are five of my tables for more of my opinions.

*Table 1 - Table 2 - Table 3 - Table 4 - Table 5 - Table 6*


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## Colin M (May 31, 2018)

I grew up with bold and bumpy DG playing on the toatally too big for the sound it made phonograph in the parlor of our cranberry farmhouse in Massachusetts. In the 1960s that phonograph was the closet thing We had to technology other than electricity which was spotty at best. Too far from Boston to justify a television with Rabbit Ears : ). Thanks Granate for the tables : ). I must be entering a part of my life where the past becomes closer....


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

mbhaub said:


> No one wants Barenboim on Warner? Despite owning many sets over the years, the Barenboim seems to have it all: superb playing, marvelous conducting - not a dud in the bunch - and terrific sound. I think it's the best overall set out there right now. Barenboim has delivered several symphony sets that are really top-notch and hard to beat: Brahms and Schumann. The Bruckner is ok, not as thrilling as others, like Karajan. Barenboim and Beethoven! Go for it.


Barenboim's early Bruckner set with Chicago is marvelous - great stuff, in wonderful, knockout sound...


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Part of the joy of exploring classical music is that of _exploring_ classical music. That is, of listening to new interpretations -- different conductors, different orchestras, the same conductors with different orchestras or at different phases of their career.... One will eventually hit (or, better, be _hit by_) a version which simply _speaks_ to you. And it will be like hearing the work for the first time and recognizing it as the masterpiece it is in a truly cognizant way. Again, you'll understand when you experience it.

I've heard a lot of Beethoven Ninths (on black and silver discs, on radio broadcasts, and in the concert hall), but it was a specific recording of the work by Furtwangler which sealed the deal for me. And though I think I've now found "the greatest Beethoven Ninth recording", I continue to search on.

After all, one can never hear enough Beethoven.


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

I like Gunter Wand's cycle with North German Radio, but really I don't think any set by a single conductor does full justice to Beethoven's symphonies.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

I would like to have a new set of Beethoven symphonies that rigorously follows every single suggestion, change, tempo and all other matters written about by Felix Weingartner in his book. His set of the 9 follows them, but the 90-year-old recordings can't convey the real sound. It would be as far from HIP as possible, but sure would be interesting. It is true that most mid-20th c conductors followed some of the ideas, Toscanini, Szell, Leibowitz, and other "purists" among them.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Colin M said:


> Thank you. I will figure it out with practice and time I am sure : )


Welcome aboard. There are several Docs on this forum. Are you into streaming? It's a good way to sample different recordings or Compositions


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Btw, there are roughly 180 Complete (or almost complete - one symphony missing) Beethoven cycles. I used Ionarts survey and my knowledge of some he's missed from his list (and others he's wrongly added twice or put in that are only half complete) to come up with that figure.

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2017/10/a-survey-of-beethoven-symphony-cycles.html


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Not often mentioned as a favourite (and sometimes mentioned as a hate) is the Minnesota set by Vanska. It is very cerebral Beethoven but is for me consistently stimulating and excellent. It has that hallmark of all the great sets - a coherent view (a particular sound but much more than just that) of what Beethoven was about in his symphonies. One I have far more difficulty with is the van Immerseel set that came out around the same time. Like much of his work, it can seem like he refuses to _interpret _and indeed it sometimes sounds a little bland to me. But, ultimately, I think it is rather good. It fascinates (or do I mean worries) me because I am just not quite sure what I think of it. But for anyone who wants freshness it is here.


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## Don Camillo (Jul 10, 2018)

That is the great thing with classical music. There are no originals, only covers. You can have a shelf full of Schubert's Winterreise, and decide from day to day whether you are going to listen to Kurt Moll, Ian Bostridge, Andreas Schmidt, Fritz Wunderlich, Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau or whoever else you have.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

One can never have enough Beethoven Symphonies cycles. Which is why I encourage every conductor and orchestra out there to record one. My own collection contains quite a few (that's "few to the third power, at least!"), but I remain fond of recommending the set by Rudolf Kempe with the Munich Philharmonic. As I wrote on an earlier post in this Forum: "This is elemental Beethoven performed in a way I believe the composer himself would have approved of: a way close to the way Beethoven himself likely heard this music. Not too slick, not too big, a bit roughshod around the edges ... but definitely elemental Beethoven. Good performances of great music. And the set shouldn't break a budget." I hope I'm never in a position to have to grab just one set of the complete Beethoven symphonies to live with for the rest of my life, but if I had to make that decision I could well live with this Kempe set.









What intrigued me greatly about your post, Colin M, was the reference to the Brahms and Schubert symphonies. Though I've never been a great fan of Karajan's interpretations, I have been a great fan of both Brahms and Schubert, and it was the Brahms First Symphony and the Schubert Fifth which, having heard early in my life, helped solidify my affection for classical music. These two symphonies have guided me through over half a century of musical exploration. They led me to the other Brahms and Schubert symphonies, and their other music as well. And then on to everybody else, including Beethoven, for I knew the Brahms First and the Schubert Fifth before I had encountered a Beethoven symphony.

I envy you your opportunity to begin an exploration of masterful music in the classical realm, to have the chance to hear for the first time the symphonies of Bruckner and Mahler, Nielsen and Sibelius, Schumann and Schuman, Bax and Shostakovich, Tchaikovsky and Holmboe, Allan Pettersson and Alan Hovhaness and Alun Hoddinott ... and all the others .... The most wonderful thing about this listening hobby _is_ the exploration -- the opportunity to encounter new works of music, and new interpretations (readings) of familiar works. My early run-ins with Brahms and Schubert (led, initially, by an encounter with Tchaikovsky and his _Capriccio Italien_) have spurred me on a journey through a glorious world of sounds that I've never regretted encountering, and, eventually, becoming lost in (but a happy resident of as well). Hopefully you will have similar joys.

Welcome to the Forum, Colin M.


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## WienerKonzerthaus (Mar 11, 2014)

Merl said:


> Btw, there are roughly 180 Complete (or almost complete - one symphony missing) Beethoven cycles. I used Ionarts survey and my knowledge of some he's missed from his list (and others he's wrongly added twice or put in that are only half complete) to come up with that figure.
> 
> http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2017/10/a-survey-of-beethoven-symphony-cycles.html


Which ones does that survey miss and which ones are duplicates? (Or which ones are not complete?)


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I'll continue my fairly curmudgeonly opinion of cycles -- which are fine if you're a compulsive collector. But I have yet to find a conductor, chamber ensemble, or pianist who is equally fine across a given composer's given ouvre. Listen widely as you come across appropriate pieces, and choose the individual performances that speak to you. Dozens of multi-disc cycles are fine if you are that obsessed or really need a life -- but life _is_ short, and several dozen discs of the right performances of individual works can serve just as well -- and will keep you from throwing your stereo out the window and growling "Why did I get_ this_ set."


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

MarkW said:


> ...... and will keep you from throwing your stereo out the window and growling "Why did I get_ this_ set."


Like this one? Thirty odd years ago, there was a mail order record shop, where if you spent more than fifty pounds, they would send you a set of this, free of charge. I had three sets at one time, now down to one still in wraps. It might go to the landfill if I run out of space. :lol:


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

MarkW said:


> I'll continue my fairly curmudgeonly opinion of cycles -- which are fine if you're a compulsive collector. But I have yet to find a conductor, chamber ensemble, or pianist who is equally fine across a given composer's given ouvre. Listen widely as you come across appropriate pieces, and choose the individual performances that speak to you. Dozens of multi-disc cycles are fine if you are that obsessed or really need a life -- but life _is_ short, and several dozen discs of the right performances of individual works can serve just as well -- and will keep you from throwing your stereo out the window and growling "Why did I get_ this_ set."


I don't know about obsession and last time I looked I had a life, but with Beethoven I find it is often worth getting full sets of noted interpreters. Firstly, there are many sets of the symphonies where every performance is very worthwhile. And then it is at least interesting the hear a noted interpreter's take on all the works - even when only one or two stand out. There are many sets out there where every performance is great. It seems to me that if you merely want one or two performances of each of the works then you may be buying into the idea that there is only one correct way to play each of the symphonies.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

WienerKonzerthaus said:


> Which ones does that survey miss and which ones are duplicates? (Or which ones are not complete?)


Tbf, it looks like Ionart has cleaned up that list since I last saw it. I'll comment when I've read it properly, later. For example, I've just noticed he's removed Fey from that list. He never got anywhere near completing his cycle but was on the list. Jordan is most of the way thru his (far inferior to Paris) cycle as we speak. He should finish it in 2019. Ionart hasn't got any of the compilations in the pic below on his list but has other compiled various cycles. The Signature cycle, the first Brilliant cycle (before Blomstedt) and the Prism collection. All have different recordings on them (the one common denominator on 2 of them being Nanut). Nanut's Beethoven is well worth hearing. He actually recorded all but the 9tj but tracking each one down is not easy (most are on the Signature cycle but its not sure whether they all definitely Nanut - there were some problems with mis-labelling performances with many of the super-budget performances). To my ears they all do sound like Nanut.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Enthusiast said:


> I don't know about obsession and last time I looked I had a life, but with Beethoven I find it is often worth getting full sets of noted interpreters. Firstly, there are many sets of the symphonies where every performance is very worthwhile. And then it is at least interesting the hear a noted interpreter's take on all the works - even when only one or two stand out. There are many sets out there where every performance is great. It seems to me that if you merely want one or two performances of each of the works then you may be buying into the idea that there is only one correct way to play each of the symphonies.


I never mean to insult anyone, but sometimes it comes out that way.  I just come from the era when music came on vinyl LPs, which were about $5 apiece, which was a lot of money in those days (by comparison, candy bars were a nickel). And there was too much music to collect without going overboard on complete sets, I did keep my ears open for good or interesting performances and there were some conductors or performers who, I could usually count on good experiences with (for Beethoven, Toscanini, Furtwangler, Schmidt-Isserstedt, Gardiner ...) and some I would stay away from (Rattle). But I never considered that I had time for ploughing through complete sets. I think I had only a few -- a Toscanini Beethoven on budget RCA back as a teen when I didn't have all nine; an Amadeus Beethoven quartets (after I had been to one of their concerts), but found their sound thin, as well played as they were, and a Chailly Mahler which I got cheap when Tower Records went out of business, which I regretted symphony by symphony (I think I most liked the second movement of the Cooke Tenth). There are some works I had as many as four versions of, and maybe five of late Beethoven quartets, but rarely even three, I listen widely, but collect narrowly!


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

I have 12 complete sets, usually very different from each other, but I don´t expect to get any further ones. I always set the limit at 25-30 recordings of a work, but such numbers occur only very rarely. Never had the economy or space for more, but am collecting a lot of repertoire. Skipped a few sets too.

- Mengelberg
- Toscanini
- Scherchen/westminster (1-8)
- Scherchen/Svizzera
- Karajan/dg 196x
- Karajan/dg 197x
- Leibowitz
- Bernstein/NYPO
- Blomstedt
- Gardiner
- Zinman
- Skrowaczweski


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

MarkW said:


> I never mean to insult anyone, but sometimes it comes out that way.  I just come from the era when music came on vinyl LPs, which were about $5 apiece, which was a lot of money in those days (by comparison, candy bars were a nickel). And there was too much music to collect without going overboard on complete sets, I did keep my ears open for good or interesting performances and there were some conductors or performers who, I could usually count on good experiences with (for Beethoven, Toscanini, Furtwangler, Schmidt-Isserstedt, Gardiner ...) and some I would stay away from (Rattle). But I never considered that I had time for ploughing through complete sets. I think I had only a few -- a Toscanini Beethoven on budget RCA back as a teen when I didn't have all nine; an Amadeus Beethoven quartets (after I had been to one of their concerts), but found their sound thin, as well played as they were, and a Chailly Mahler which I got cheap when Tower Records went out of business, which I regretted symphony by symphony (I think I most liked the second movement of the Cooke Tenth). There are some works I had as many as four versions of, and maybe five of late Beethoven quartets, but rarely even three, I listen widely, but collect narrowly!


Oh, no, it's OK - I am far too thick skinned to be insulted by being called obsessed! I've had far worse on this very forum! And I get where you are coming from: I also have a foot in that world. But with some works and - when it comes to Beethoven, Brahms, Mahler etc - some series of works I feel I have been greatly enriched by being able to repeatedly hear so many different takes on the music from so many very gifted exponents. I am constantly amazed at how much can be found in some music! Of course, I also avoid many exponents without even sampling them (Rattle included!).


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

joen_cph said:


> I have 12 complete sets, usually very different from each other, but I don´t expect to get any further ones. I always set the limit at 25-30 recordings of a work, but such numbers occur only very rarely. Skipped a few sets too.
> 
> - Mengelberg
> - Toscanini
> ...


I can relate to most of your choices .... but, hey, how can you do without Furtwangler? I often find his Beethoven accounts as fresh and "new" as if they had been recorded yesterday. I'm talking about what he does - not the sound quality! But many of his Beethoven recordings sound pretty good for their age. I also wonder which Toscanini set you included?


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

I´ve got Furtwänglers, from different periods, including 4x different no.9, but not any official, complete sets. I don´t have the 2nd Symphony with him either.

Toscanini is NBC 1949-1952.


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