# Are You getting rid of any Placido Domingo CDs because of his recent actions?



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I'm seeing a lot of Placid Domingo CDs showing up in the used bins.

Are any members here offended by Placido Domingo's recent actions to the point that they are getting rid of any CDs he is on?


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

I haven't gotten rid of any CDs or DVDs featuring Domingo.

But I haven't invited him over for drinks, either.


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2019)

Domingo has been accused of a pattern of harassment of adult women, apparently not rising to the level of a criminal offense. It should give pause to anyone considering hiring him, but it would not prevent me from listening to a recording in which he participated.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

quite the contrary, i download more opera vids of him from trackers, before the police shut these down.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

I own many recordings by literal Nazis and monsters like Schwarzkopf, Goodall, Gieseking, and Pletnev. Domingo was merely a sexual harasser, who hasn't been alleged to have committed even a minor criminal offense. 

Fire him from the LA Opera, sure, but I don't see a reason to expunge my collection or think anything less of his performances or recordings.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I never get rid of any music because something the composer or performer did. It does not affect my enjoyment of the music one bit.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

howlingfantods said:


> I own many recordings by literal Nazis and monsters like Schwarzkopf, Goodall, Gieseking, and Pletnev. Domingo was merely a sexual harasser, who hasn't been alleged to have committed even a minor criminal offense.
> 
> Fire him from the LA Opera, sure, but I don't see a reason to expunge my collection or think anything less of his performances or recordings.


The Pletenev reference I get. Schwarzkopf was I assume a committed Nazi? But I haven't been aware of any behaviour by Goodall or Gieseking that could lead to them being called monsters. What is the substance of allegations about them?


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2019)

Art Rock said:


> I never get rid of any music because something the composer or performer did. It does not affect my enjoyment of the music one bit.


I generally separate the art from the artist, but it gives me pause if a purchase will materially benefit a performer implicated in serious wrongdoing.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

I never really much liked him to begin with, nor do I own any of his CDs, but if I did...no, I wouldn't throw them out. Otherwise good people have done horrible things, and even horrible people have been creating beautiful things for millennia.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

Nah, that would be as pointless as throwing out non-cruelty free products you had already bought when you want to switch. Might as well use them up.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

These comments are encouraging. Hardly surprising though. This is one of the few places I come to that isn't full of immature posturing via symbolic gestures meant to seem virtuous.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> These comments are encouraging. Hardly surprising though. This is one of the few places I come to that isn't full of immature posturing via symbolic gestures meant to seem virtuous.


I'm not all that virtuous; over the years, it has cost me.

So I'm not surprised when it happens to others.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Enthusiast said:


> The Pletenev reference I get. Schwarzkopf was I assume a committed Nazi? But I haven't been aware of any behaviour by Goodall or Gieseking that could lead to them being called monsters. What is the substance of allegations about them?


Goodall was a well documented and committed nazi supporter, apologist and anti-Semite. Gieseking? I have no idea.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reginald_Goodall


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Barbebleu said:


> Goodall was a well documented and committed nazi supporter, apologist and anti-Semite. Gieseking? I have no idea.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reginald_Goodall


The Wiki article on Gieseking addresses this. It appears he was a strong Nazi supporter. As late as 1949 his US tour had to be canceled due to protests.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

What about Schwarzkopf? I remember liner notes that said she couldn't stand Glenn Gould. It sounded like she really hated him.


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## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

What would be the point?


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Of course not!!!!


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Art Rock said:


> I never get rid of any music because something the composer or performer did. It does not affect my enjoyment of the music one bit.


Then of course the OP's question does not apply to you.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

haydnguy said:


> What would be the point?


Then of course the OP's question does not apply to you.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

"Are You getting rid of any Placido Domingo CDs because of his recent actions?"

If I had a Placido Domingo CD (I don't) I'd jump up and down on it with great vigor, try to snap it in half (failing unfortunately), douse it with charcoal starter and burn it, all the while shouting my rage at the sky. Take that, Placido you putz!

When all that was over, a bowl of ice cream might be nice.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Barbebleu said:


> Goodall was a well documented and committed nazi supporter, apologist and anti-Semite. Gieseking? I have no idea.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reginald_Goodall


He was a Nazi sympathizer, but I saw nothing explicit about any anti-Semitism.



KenOC said:


> The Wiki article on Gieseking addresses this. It appears he was a strong Nazi supporter. As late as 1949 his US tour had to be canceled due to protests.


The WIKI article does not specifically address the issue of any anti-Semitism on Goodall's part.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

The attitudes expressed in this thread seem blithe and unconcerned, compared to the other thread "Placido Domingo accused...":

Consider this reaction from the other thread:


DrMike said:


> We like to pretend that this was all acceptable x number of years ago. It wasn't. It never has been. *Decent people have always recognized how sleazy it is - *but there was in those days a critical mass of people willing to cover it up. If it were acceptable then, these men would not have tried to keep it quiet. While there is certainly an opportunity for this to go too far, and for people to be falsely accused, *the egregiousness of this type of behavior, so long unpunished, allows perhaps a certain degree of backlash now that should be tolerated.* By all means, he should be able to state his case, give his rebuttal. But if it turns out he did this, then his station in life should have no bearing. We are passed the days when *people like Roman Polanski - a fugitive on the run to avoid jail time for sexually violating a teenage girl -* get awards and people applaud them, and *justify their evils because of some notion of their artistic contributions washing away those sins.
> *
> Sadly, this kind of *predatory sexual activity *is being exposed as all too common, not in any particular group, but rather i*n men who reach a certain level of power in whatever field they find themselves in*.
> *
> I hope any who have done this and have thus far gotten away with it are currently crapping their pants. It's time for them to experience the fear for a change.*


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

The only way I would even consider getting rid of a performer's CDs is if I suddenly fell out of love with his/her singing or interpretive style.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

KenOC said:


> If I had a Placido Domingo CD (I don't) I'd jump up and down on it with great vigor, try to snap it in half (failing unfortunately), douse it with charcoal starter and burn it, all the while shouting my rage at the sky. Take that, Placido you putz! When all that was over, a bowl of ice cream might be nice.


Mmmm, nice! And what would you be wearing?


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Bellinilover said:


> The only way I would even consider getting rid of a performer's CDs is if I suddenly fell out of love with his/her singing or interpretive style.


Regardless of the accusations?

Their may be feminists who would disagree, and would get rid of their Placido Domingo recordings.

There may be Jewish listeners who would get rid of Elisabeth Schwarzkopf recordings:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elisabeth_Schwarzkopf

Likewise, with Walter Giesking: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Gieseking#Career

So, aren't you actually unintentionally supporting such people by buying their recordings, regardless of how you personally feel?

Your actions have consequences.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> So, aren't you actually unintentionally supporting such people by buying their recordings, regardless of how you personally feel?


Perhaps the performers have already been paid a fixed fee and have no financial interest in further sales of recordings. Or perhaps they are dead, and only their blameless descendants earn any residual. A bit of research may be in order before making your decision!

Or perhaps (yawn) life is simply too short for this sort of thing.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Perhaps the performers have already been paid a fixed fee and have no financial interest in further sales of recordings. Or perhaps they are dead, and only their blameless descendants earn any residual.


Not financial support; I'm talking about supporting the artist's _legacy _ by owning and supporting their recorded legacy.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> Not financial support; I'm talking about supporting the artist's _legacy _ by owning and supporting their recorded legacy.


If I want to limit my listening with an eye to not supporting some musician's "artistic legacy," the only person losing out is myself. No thanks to that!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Or perhaps (yawn) life is simply too short for this sort of thing.


Pretty much. I leave it to the self-righteous and the faint-hearted to investigate the less admirable behaviors of artists, which are not hard to find, and to punish the sinners by basing their listening and record-buying on their scale of disapproval. Give me my Schwarzkopf, my Gieseking, my Domingo, my Levine, my whoever, and don't bug me.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

amfortas said:


> I haven't gotten rid of any CDs or DVDs featuring Domingo.
> 
> But I haven't invited him over for drinks, either.


+1 .................................


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

millionrainbows said:


> He was a Nazi sympathizer, but I saw nothing explicit about any anti-Semitism.
> 
> The WIKI article does not specifically address the issue of any anti-Semitism on Goodall's part.


Gooddall was a committed fascist during the war. "even though Britain was at war with Germany Goodall continued to support the fascist cause. He campaigned for the British Union of Fascist, called the sinking of the German battleship Bismarck 'disgusting', and was actually arrested briefly for expressing pro-German views in public. Even after the war Goodall was unrepentant. He was recruited by Walter Legge to take part in a tour of to Germany in 1946. Some of the performers visited the site of the Belsen concentration camp, only to be told by Goodall, who did not make the visit, that Belsen was British fiction manufactured in a leading movie studio."


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

No I've not got rid of any Domingo. Neither have I jettisoned many of James Levine's excellent performances. There's very little that would stop me playing music I enjoy, however I have a hard time trying to listen to the rock band Lost Prophets, a band whose music I quite liked to play every now and again. After the trial (look up Ian Watkin's horrific crimes if you are not aware of what happened) I don't think I've ever listened to a single track.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> He was a Nazi sympathizer, but I saw nothing explicit about any anti-Semitism.
> 
> The WIKI article does not specifically address the issue of any anti-Semitism on Goodall's part.


The fact that he thought the Holocaust never happened and that it was Jewish propaganda would suggest this.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Million Rainbows:
Are you an opera lover? Gosh, I hope not because your collection will be awfully thin without the likes of Pinza, Domingo, Tucker, Levine, Grigolo, Di Stefano ... must I go on?


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

amfortas said:


> I haven't gotten rid of any CDs or DVDs featuring Domingo.
> 
> But I haven't invited him over for drinks, either.


You could use them as drink coasters.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Barbebleu said:


> The fact that he thought the Holocaust never happened and that it was Jewish propaganda would suggest this.


I considered that, but it is _possible_ to believe in a possible "conspiracy" without directly attaching an overt hatred of a group to it.

Goodall's rejection of the Holocaust might _suggest_ hatred of Jews to you, but there is not an _explicit _connection to anti-Semitism. It's inference.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Merl said:


> No I've not got rid of any Domingo. Neither have I jettisoned many of James Levine's excellent performances. There's very little that would stop me playing music I enjoy, however I have a hard time trying to listen to the rock band Lost Prophets, a band whose music I quite liked to play every now and again. After the trial (look up Ian Watkin's horrific crimes if you are not aware of what happened) I don't think I've ever listened to a single track.


That's more like it; an honest reaction to an artist who you see as being culpable of offenses. This brings your acceptance of Placido Domingo under suspicion of hypocrisy.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

KenOC said:


> If I want to limit my listening with an eye to not supporting some musician's "artistic legacy," the only person losing out is myself. No thanks to that!


That's not true; no man is an island. Your listening might influence someone else, or serve as an example. It is an act, and no act is totally isolated.

In fact, your statement of the intention to keep listening already has resonance, in this public forum.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> I considered that, but it is _possible_ to believe in a possible "conspiracy" without directly attaching an overt hatred of a group to it.
> 
> Goodall's rejection of the Holocaust might _suggest_ hatred of Jews to you, but there is not an _explicit _connection to anti-Semitism. It's inference.


Yeah, well if it walks like a duck.........


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

We don't have any cds, but we do have his marvellous film of Carmen. 
We won't be getting rid of it - but that doesn't mean I think his harassment of women is okay. 

Domingo is still alive to be disgraced, but it's the same principle as applies to other historic composers whose actions are reprehensible - my favourite Lully for example. Also, in my career as an English teacher, I overlooked Chaucer's involvement in a rape, Dickens' defamation of his wife, Ben Jonson's trial for murder, and John Donne's marriage of his daughter to an ageing actor whose money came from brothel-keeping. 

If I know of somebody's nasty ways before I read/ listen to them, it tends to put me off even trying them out. If I find out afterwards, being human, it might put me off, but not to the extent of giving up the enjoyment of their art.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

If we exclude the great musicians for their moral indiscretions then our shelves might be made rather bare. Just read that there were times ‘when Klemperer would spend his nights with drunks and prostitutes, reduce his wife and two children to despair and penury’. The list is endless . Great musicians are not always great people . Got a bin handy?


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

millionrainbows said:


> There may be Jewish listeners who would get rid of Elisabeth Schwarzkopf recordings:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elisabeth_Schwarzkopf
> 
> Likewise, with Walter Giesking: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Gieseking#Career
> ...


Not really. They're both dead.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

millionrainbows said:


> I considered that, but it is _possible_ to believe in a possible "conspiracy" without directly attaching an overt hatred of a group to it.
> 
> Goodall's rejection of the Holocaust might _suggest_ hatred of Jews to you, but there is not an _explicit _connection to anti-Semitism. It's inference.


Sorry, but anyone who denies the fact of the Holocaust is, by definition, an antisemite.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

If anyone is getting rid of their Domingo CDs, Wagner should follow. :lol:


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Red Terror said:


> If anyone is getting rid of their Domingo CDs, Wagner should follow. :lol:


Wagner got rid of his Domingo CDs a long time ago.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

wkasimer said:


> Sorry, but anyone who denies the fact of the Holocaust is, by definition, an antisemite.


Goodall's rejection of the Holocaust might automatically equate hatred of Jews to you, per your definition, but it is still possible to deny the fact of the Holocaust, and not be an anti-Semite.

If your definition makes the connection automatic, then this possibility lies outside that definition.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

_So, aren't you actually unintentionally supporting such people by buying their recordings, regardless of how you personally feel?_


wkasimer said:


> Not really. They're both dead.


That is irrelevant; you would be supporting their _legacy,_ and perhaps disseminating the music to other listeners.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Red Terror said:


> If anyone is getting rid of their Domingo CDs, Wagner should follow. :lol:


Not Domingo, but the others listed: Schwarzkopf, Goodall, Giesking, if the listener is sincere in their rejection, for those reasons.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

DavidA said:


> If we exclude the great musicians for their moral indiscretions then our shelves might be made rather bare. Just read that there were times 'when Klemperer would spend his nights with drunks and prostitutes, reduce his wife and two children to despair and penury'. The list is endless . Great musicians are not always great people . Got a bin handy?


This general tone here seems to deny the fact of social rejection. If these people are truly "outraged" with an artist's "egregious" behavior, then they would follow through, and not own the CDs, or support the artist, living or dead, or their legacy.

This is clearly hypocrisy.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Ingélou said:


> We don't have any cds, but we do have his marvellous film of Carmen.
> We won't be getting rid of it - but that doesn't mean I think his harassment of women is okay.
> 
> Domingo is still alive to be disgraced, but it's the same principle as applies to other historic composers whose actions are reprehensible - my favourite Lully for example. Also, in my career as an English teacher, I overlooked Chaucer's involvement in a rape, Dickens' defamation of his wife, Ben Jonson's trial for murder, and John Donne's marriage of his daughter to an ageing actor whose money came from brothel-keeping.
> ...


If you were a true, sincere feminist, with principles, you would reject all those artists. That's what feminists are doing now, to the point of re-writing history. They are "de-geniusing" the idea of artistic genius.

Thoreau is de-geniused, because while "roughing it" at Walden Pond, his wife did his laundry and brought him pies;

Einstein is de-geniused, because his first wife, a physicist herself, gave him the idea for relativity;

Picasso is de-geniused, because he treated women badly;

In fact, all of history must be questioned, for as far back as women have been oppressed.

The same principles apply to other oppressed groups.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

millionrainbows said:


> It is possible to deny the fact of the Holocaust, and not be an anti-Semite.


I suggest that you need to do some reading on the subject.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/ideology/holocaust-denial

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

nina foresti said:


> millionrainbows:
> Are you an opera lover? Gosh, I hope not because your collection will be awfully thin without the likes of Pinza, Domingo, Tucker, Levine, Grigolo, Di Stefano ... must I go on?


Yes, I love opera. I have Wozzeck, Lulu, Dr. Atomic, Elektra, Satyricon, Satyagraha, and many more. I appreciate good singers, too: Phyllis Bryn-Julson, Bethany Bearslee, Marni Nixon, Callas.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

wkasimer said:


> I suggest that you need to do some reading on the subject.


This all comes under the heading of "definition." All I'm saying is that it is _possible_ to deny the Holocaust without harboring anti-Semitism, if the denial is very specific.

Goodall could simply have been pro-German or pro-nazi for separate political reasons.

BTW, I do not deny it.


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

millionrainbows said:


> This all comes under the heading of "definition." All I'm saying is that it is _possible_ to deny the Holocaust without harboring anti-Semitism.
> 
> BTW, I do not deny it.


About as possible as believing the world is 5000 years old and being an atheist


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Bwv 1080 said:


> About as possible as believing the world is 5000 years old and being an atheist


If your beliefs are _very specific,_ these two beliefs could co-exist. You could hypothesize a religion with these beliefs. It's possible. Just about anything is _possible._


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

millionrainbows said:


> This general tone here seems to deny the fact of social rejection. If these people are truly "outraged" with an artist's "egregious" behavior, then they would follow through, and not own the CDs, or support the artist, living or dead, or their legacy.
> 
> This is clearly hypocrisy.


"Clearly" only to you. Since when is it your prerogative to decide for others what being "truly outraged" entails, and what punishments they should mete out after consulting with you about their feelings?

Speak for and about yourself only. And try to keep it short.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> "Clearly" only to you. Since when is it your prerogative to decide for others what being "truly outraged" entails, and what punishments they should mete out after consulting with you about their feelings?
> 
> Speak for and about yourself only. And try to keep it short.


There are three classes of action, in ascending order: intent, speech, and action.

We are speaking of social norms, applied to "egregious" behavior of Placido Domingo. This is not a subjective area.

I'm simply challenging people to be consistent in their responses. The only way they will ever "interact" with such figures is through recordings and works.

There is a _strong disconnect_ between the responses here, and in the responses I've quoted (in part) from the "Placido Domingo accused of sexual harassment" thread.

Where do the "outraged" respondents of the other thread, and here, _truly stand_ on issues such as these?

By their almost unanimous proposed refusals to destroy all Placid Domingo CDs they own, I remain unconvinced of the sincerity of their "outraged" moral responses.

I think this is just knee-jerk reaction, based in deep-seated religiously-derived moral beliefs, with no _real _substance in terms of personal responsibility or involvement.

It's just hot air.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> He was a Nazi sympathizer, but I saw nothing explicit about any anti-Semitism.
> 
> The WIKI article does not specifically address the issue of any anti-Semitism on Goodall's part.


This is just obtuse. There's no such thing as a Nazi who is not an anti-Semite.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

millionrainbows said:


> That's more like it; an honest reaction to an artist who you see as being culpable of offenses. This brings your acceptance of Placido Domingo under suspicion of hypocrisy.


I agree I'm being slightly hypocritical but Watkin's crimes were so vile and horrific I actually squirm when I hear the band. Fortunately, no-one else plays them either (even the rest of the band refuse to play any Lost Prophets songs any more). Have you noticed how little Michael Jackson is played on the radio or TV now? Tbh, I can't think of a single time in the past 5 years I've played a Domingo recording. I'm not an opera fan.


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Anyone refuse to listen to Gesualdo for moral reasons?


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> I considered that, but it is _possible_ to believe in a possible "conspiracy" without directly attaching an overt hatred of a group to it.
> 
> Goodall's rejection of the Holocaust might _suggest_ hatred of Jews to you, but there is not an _explicit _connection to anti-Semitism. It's inference.


The sheer fantasy involved in believing that you can support a political movement that has it's primary goal to rid the world of Jews, but not be yourself an anti-Semite is a breathtaking bit of delusion.

If you supported the Nazis when they were doing Kristallnachts and putting people in ghettos and stealing everything they owned and putting them into concentration and death camps, you were totally ok with treating fellow human beings like something other than human because they were Jews. Being ok with treating human beings as something other than human because they're Jews is the definition of anti-Semitism.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

millionrainbows said:


> This all comes under the heading of "definition." All I'm saying is that it is _possible_ to deny the Holocaust without harboring anti-Semitism, if the denial is very specific.


I cannot think of any specificity that would make such a denial not antisemitic.

BTW, it is included in the US State Department's definition of antisemitism:

https://www.state.gov/defining-anti-semitism/


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

wkasimer said:


> I cannot think of any specificity that would make such a denial not antisemitic.


You seem to think that "specificities" must invariably refer to objective facts, when this is a theoretical issue.

If there is a car wreck, and there are three witnesses, fifteen minutes later you will have three differing accounts.

History is not science. It's an interpretation of events, and is not fixed.



> BTW, it is included in the US State Department's definition of antisemitism.


If the denial _specified_ that it did not include anti-Semitic sentiment, then this would lie outside the accepted definition, and would therefore be an example of "holocaust denial without anti-Semitic content."

BTW, I do accept the Holocaust as being a real event.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Bwv 1080 said:


> Anyone refuse to listen to Gesualdo for moral reasons?


So, are you promoting the music of a murderous composer who abused his power, or do you see that as information which can be ignored?

Some states and prisons will not allow murderers to profit from their crimes, like writing books and selling art.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

howlingfantods said:


> This is just obtuse. There's no such thing as a Nazi who is not an anti-Semite.


Elisabeth Schwarzkopf and Walter Guessing were both Nazi sympathisers, and Schwarzkopf was an actual member of the Nazi party. Do they fit your definition of being "anti-Semitic?'


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

howlingfantods said:


> The sheer fantasy involved in believing that you can support a political movement that has it's primary goal to rid the world of Jews, but not be yourself an anti-Semite is a breathtaking bit of delusion.


As noted with Schwarzkopf, there can be extenuating circumstances.



> If you supported the Nazis when they were doing Kristallnachts and putting people in ghettos and stealing everything they owned and putting them into concentration and death camps, you were totally ok with treating fellow human beings like something other than human because they were Jews. Being ok with treating human beings as something other than human because they're Jews is the definition of anti-Semitism.


That's exactly the point I'm making here; most of the German public simply "went along" with things; that's a form of passive support, just like keeping all your Placido Domingo recordings.

Unless you separate being a Nazi supporter with anti-Semitic sentiment, then you are sweeping many people under the rug.

If what you say is true, then it should also work in reverse: if one is anti-Semitic, this is as bad as being a Nazi. Therefore Richard Wagner must be included.


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## Guest (Oct 4, 2019)

I don't see any point of boycotting an artist who is dead and gone. I regard the art as distinct from the artist. Boycotting an artist who harassed colleagues is also problematic, since you are boycotting those victims who had to suffer the harassment in order to participate in the performance. My main concern is not to give material support which might facilitate further harassment or abuse.

It is an individual case-by-case decision. Levine's transgressions are serious and disgusting enough that I would not consider purchasing anything he is involved in and I have not been tempted to listen to any of his recordings that I already have. I was listening through the Cleveland Quartet Beethoven cycle when it came to my attention that the first violinist (Preucil) was accused many young female students of sexual assault. I stopped listening to that set, because the knowledge that the person playing that exquisite music of Beethoven used the prestige of his position as a opportunity to rape young girls was a discordant note. Fortunately I have no shortage of Beethoven and I ended up listening to the Endellion instead. 

Domingo? What a pathetic jerk. All that hype about how he is the ultimate Romantic, and he turns out to be a crude cad. 

These are personal decisions and I would not presume to tell people how they should react.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

millionrainbows said:


> If the denial _specified_ that it did not include anti-Semitic sentiment, then this would lie outside the accepted definition, and would therefore be an example of "holocaust denial without anti-Semitic content."


That would be an example of a "big fat lie".


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## Guest (Oct 4, 2019)

millionrainbows said:


> That's exactly the point I'm making here; most of the German public simply "went along" with things; that's a form of passive support, just like keeping all your Placido Domingo recordings.
> 
> Unless you separate being a Nazi supporter with anti-Semitic sentiment, then you are sweeping many people under the rug.
> 
> If what you say is true, then it should also work in reverse: if one is anti-Semitic, this is as bad as being a Nazi. Therefore Richard Wagner must be included.


If you are going to try to make an absolute distinction you will end up with absurdities, such as equating Goebbels with someone who keeps his Placido Domingo recordings.

Hitler won one election in 1933 with a very small plurality and there was never another election. You can't say the entire country gave "passive support" to a totalitarian regime which had no qualms about killing anyone that didn't acquiesces to them. It is a case-by-case judgement and it is a hard judgement for many individuals.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> Elisabeth Schwarzkopf and Walter Guessing were both Nazi sympathisers, and Schwarzkopf was an actual member of the Nazi party. Do they fit your definition of being "anti-Semitic?'


Yes. It is impossible to be a member of the Nazi party without being an anti-Semite. If you support a political party whose aims are the elimination and execution of Jews, then you are an anti-Semite.

This whole line of questioning is so dumb--"have you considered that they may have been *good* Nazis, the non-anti-Semitic kind, you know, all the non-anti-semites who historically supported the Nazi party's main and primary purpose of the oppression and elimination of Jews?" Being a Nazi is the bad thing, not the implied anti-Semitism of being a Nazi.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> ...I think this is just knee-jerk reaction, based in deep-seated religiously-derived moral beliefs, with no _real _substance in terms of personal responsibility or involvement.
> 
> It's just hot air.


Well, I certainly agree there's a lot of _that _around here.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

millionrainbows said:


> We are speaking of social norms, applied to "egregious" behavior of Placido Domingo. This is not a subjective area.


Even if Domingo's actions are objectively undesirable, our individual responses are subjective. There is no one correct response, neither one correct feeling, nor one correct action.



> I'm simply challenging people to be consistent in their responses. The only way they will ever "interact" with such figures is through recordings and works.


You're challenging people to be consistent with YOUR responses. You're not respecting, or even acknowledging, their right to their own responses.



> There is a _strong disconnect_ between the responses here, and in the responses I've quoted (in part) from the "Placido Domingo accused of sexual harassment" thread.


The only disconnect is between you and those whose feelings and actions you don't approve of.



> Where do the "outraged" respondents of the other thread, and here, _truly stand_ on issues such as these?


They're telling you. You just don't like what they're telling you.



> By their almost unanimous proposed refusals to destroy all Placid Domingo CDs they own, I remain unconvinced of the sincerity of their "outraged" moral responses.


Who cares what you're convinced of?



> I think this is just knee-jerk reaction, based in deep-seated religiously-derived moral beliefs, with no _real _substance in terms of personal responsibility or involvement.


People's responsibility and involvement are up to them, not you.



> It's just hot air.


Then stop emitting it.

No one is morally obligated to punish artists for bad behavior by refusing to enjoy their work. As has been pointed out, applying that notion consistently would virtually deprive the world of art: we may as well burn down the libraries, the art galleries, and the opera houses (Pierre Boulez would be pleased ). In fact, we may as well have a rerun of Noah's flood, since humanity is plainly incorrigible (and it looks as if Mother Nature is working on that one as we speak).


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

No..................


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

schigolch said:


> No..................


We need more posts like this.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I prefer Pavarotti whose weakness was gluttony. Domingo was oversexed and abused his power, but Levine's transgressions strike me as downright creepy. More akin to the evil gym teacher or sports coach molesting students.


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Then there is Phillip Pickett


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> If you were a true, sincere feminist, with principles, you would reject all those artists. That's what feminists are doing now, to the point of re-writing history. They are "de-geniusing" the idea of artistic genius.
> 
> Thoreau is de-geniused, because while "roughing it" at Walden Pond, his wife did his laundry and brought him pies;
> 
> ...


Thank you for helping me to see my error of judgement in answering your question. 
I sincerely and truly - also naively - assumed that you were interested in my response. :tiphat:

But don't worry - I'll never make that mistake again.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

millionrainbows said:


> If you were a true, sincere feminist, with principles, you would reject all those artists. That's what feminists are doing now, to the point of re-writing history. They are "de-geniusing" the idea of artistic genius.
> 
> Thoreau is de-geniused, because while "roughing it" at Walden Pond, his wife did his laundry and brought him pies;
> 
> ...


Interesting. You have just about written off nearly every composer. And just about every performer in my reckoning! :lol:


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Interesting. You have just about written off nearly every composer. And just about every performer in my reckoning! :lol:


I think we can all agree that Fanny Mendelssohn provides us with guilt-free listening.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> Regardless of the accusations?
> 
> Their may be feminists who would disagree, and would get rid of their Placido Domingo recordings.
> 
> ...


Okay, so I'll toss my Domingo recordings, all of which were purchased before I knew of his past actions, and visit a priest to receive absolution for the sin of owning them and thereby implicitly contributing to Domingo's artistic legacy.

Will that suffice?

Seriously, what IS your point if it isn't simply to provoke?


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## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

I don't have any Domingo CDs, so I am free of shame :lol: 

I do care about these things as I have owned CDs by Pletnev (saw him perform LvB 5th too), Pickett, Levine, Dutoit, and have let them all go with little pain or regret. 

The Leipzip Quartet had a creepy member Stefan Arzberger and I won't buy the CDs that he plays on. Which kinda punishes the others, unfortunately.

I still listen to composers like Gombert and Britten and like the art of Wolfli. They are all so unique that nobody can replace them like a performer can be replaced. 

As for Nazis, classical music seems so entangled with em that I have a hard time sorting them out. But once again as I age it's my taste that leads me away from 19C German repertory, so it's less of an issue than it could be.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

philoctetes said:


> I don't have any Domingo CDs, so I am free of shame :lol:
> 
> I do care about these things as I have owned CDs by Pletnev (saw him perform LvB 5th too), Pickett, Levine, Dutoit, and have let them all go with little pain or regret.


If Pletnev bothers you, you may want to think about dumping your Saint-Saens collection.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

KenOC said:


> If Pletnev bothers you, you may want to think about dumping your Saint-Saens collection.


Good one, Ken.... S-S... and how!  
The unsuspecting are in for a shock.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

I only play Pianola rolls so I'm safe


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## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

KenOC said:


> If Pletnev bothers you, you may want to think about dumping your Saint-Saens collection.


I really don't have one.... letting go of classical CDs is getting pretty easy nowadays. Most of the stuff I keep now is in artist-oriented box sets or single discs of stuff I consider rare or exceptional.... the less St Saens I have the more Schoenberg I have room for


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Bellinilover said:


> Okay, so I'll toss my Domingo recordings, all of which were purchased before I knew of his past actions, and visit a priest to receive absolution for the sin of owning them and thereby implicitly contributing to Domingo's artistic legacy...Will that suffice?...Seriously, what IS your point if it isn't simply to provoke?


You're close, very close...absolution...sin...guilt...


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

In protest of no timely and fair due process, I'm keeping all my Domingo discs and getting rid of everything else. But he should consider himself lucky.


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

I don't own any Domingo recordings simply because I don't like opera. However, if I did, I wouldn't feel any need to dispense with them due to the accusations that have been made against him. I own a fairly large collection of recordings of performances of works by the Austro-German masters (Beethoven, Brahms, Bruckner etc) made in the Third Reich (conducted by Abendroth, Furtwängler, Jochum, Kabasta, Karajan, Schuricht etc). This is not due to any sympathy with National Socialist ideology on my part, but merely due to my belief that some of the finest performances of those works were recorded during this era, largely as a result of the regime's focus on those composers and the enormous amount of money that it put into promoting their works. Some of the conductors mentioned above may have been true believers, some joined the party most likely out of a cynical desire for advancement and some rejected Nazism entirely. The audience noise and coughing captured during some of those recordings (those where there actually was an audience, rather than the orchestra playing to a prototype tape recorder and a solitary engineer) may well have come from people who had committed terrible crimes but does that affect my enjoyment of them? No. Ludwig, Anton and Johannes were not responsible for the use of their music for propaganda purposes decades after their deaths and the music is ultimately what matters.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I presume Saint-Saëns was mentioned due to his predilection for what could be described as sex tourism of the Ancient Greek variety in French North Africa. Yes, it was unsavoury and I'd never make excuses for it but presumably pederasty was so widespread there that if illegal the law was more 'honour'd in the breach than the observance'. The colonial authorities in North Africa probably turned a blind eye to most things as long as rich Europeans (whatever their dubious preferences) were coming over and spending lots of money.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

KenOC said:


> If Pletnev bothers you, you may want to think about dumping your Saint-Saens collection.


And I hope you've got no Gauguin reproductions on your walls!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

philoctetes said:


> I don't have any Domingo CDs, so I am free of shame :lol:
> 
> I do care about these things as I have owned CDs by Pletnev (saw him perform LvB 5th too), Pickett, Levine, Dutoit, and have let them all go with little pain or regret.
> 
> ...


One problem is that if we go through your collection, composers and performers lifestyles would probably not generally be exemplary. We gotta realise that great artists often don't take the moral high road.


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