# Which roles do you prefer lighter/heavier voices in?



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Obviously, we're talking about roles which can be sung by a greater variety of voices (you simply don't have light Giocondas or heavy Zerlinas).

a few of my preferences are as follows:

preference of lighter voices:
- Butterfly. the need for romantic tenderness and naivety outweigh the need for dramatic power imo 
- Lucia 
- Adelgisa. a young virginal priestess does not fit a deep, dark dramatic mezzo voice
- the soprano part in Verdi requiem. apart from a few dramatic passages, most of it is quite lyrical. it should flow easily and have a delicate effect in many passages. tbh, my favorite rendition is Schwarzkopf's. 
- Figaro (Rossini as opposed to Mozart). dramatic baritones who sing this sound like angry British patriarchs when they should sound like playful womanizers or tricksters

prefer heavier voices
- Norma. she has lower parts like a friggin dramatic mezzo and brims with blood lust and dramatic passion. a light voice simply can't do this role justice.
- pretty much any tenor role ever. sorry, I just don't like lyric tenors.
- Carmen. soprano Carmens are simply offensive. you must be sultry, dark and sumptuous.
- Queen of the Night. pip squeak canary QotN's leave me thinking "go home little girl. the only thing you have any chance of being the queen of is high school prom"
- Azucena. it should go without saying that lyric mezzos should stay away from such a dark, nasty role...but alas, they don't.
- Klytemnestra. if you can't sing your low notes like a friggin baritone, don't sing this role


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I don't like the term "heavy." It has a negative connotation for me in most contexts, suggesting inflexibility, a limited range of (mostly loud) dynamics, and an ungainly emission (like, maybe, the mature Astrid Varnay ). I'm not sure what word or words I'd use instead, but to go along with the premise, I'd have to say that I'm not bothered by bigger, darker voices in "lighter" roles, roles representing young people, if they're employed with fine technique and artistic appropriateness. After all, young people can have large, dark voices. I do prefer, say, a Gilda who has a naturally sweet, innocent quality to one who doesn't - I always imagine Galli-Curci in my ideal Rigoletto cast - but who would want to forego Callas pretending to be sweet and innocent? But then I guess she could pretend to be anything from a virginal soprano geisha to a sultry mezzo gypsy, so maybe we should leave her out of the equation.

The problem is, composers often write "heavy" music for roles that represent young people, and you can't give those roles to voices that best suggest the character. Tristan and Isolde are probably no older than twenty-one, and Siegfried and Parsifal are supercilious kids when we first meet them, but they will never sound (or look) that way, and we shouldn't expect them to, given the music they have to sing. But Wagner isn't the only culprit: Butterfly and Salome both need reserves of power for their richly scored climaxes. Unfortunately, at a time when large, dramatic voices are scarce, what we usually get in roles needing big voices are voices that have been compromised by trying to be heavier than they are.

If a singer can be convincing in a role, she has my approval no matter what sort of voice she has. I'd be glad to "settle" for the "heavy" voice of Renata Tebaldi portraying little Mimi just to have a voice of that magnitude and tonal splendor (not to mention a woman so radiant with the love of music) filling the house again.











Hey, that tenor ain't too shabby neither!)) Bjorling's voice is so well-focused that you barely notice, and don't care, that it's smaller than hers. So much for "heavy" and "light."


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I don't like the term "heavy." It has a negative connotation for me in most contexts, suggesting inflexibility, a limited range of (mostly loud) dynamics, and an ungainly emission (like, maybe, the mature Astrid Varnay ). I'm not sure what word or words I'd use instead, but to go along with the premise, I'd have to say that I'm not bothered by bigger, darker voices in "lighter" roles, roles representing young people, if they're employed with fine technique and artistic appropriateness. After all, young people can have large, dark voices. I do prefer, say, a Gilda who has a naturally sweet, innocent quality to one who doesn't - I always imagine Galli-Curci in my ideal Rigoletto cast - but who would want to forego Callas pretending to be sweet and innocent? But then I guess she could pretend to be anything from a virginal soprano geisha to a sultry mezzo gypsy, so maybe we should leave her out of the equation.
> 
> The problem is, composers often write "heavy" music for roles that represent young people, and you can't give those roles to voices that best suggest the character. Tristan and Isolde are probably no older than twenty-one, and Siegfried and Parsifal are supercilious kids when we first meet them, but they will never sound (or look) that way, and we shouldn't expect them to, given the music they have to sing. But Wagner isn't the only culprit: Butterfly and Salome both need reserves of power for their richly scored climaxes. Unfortunately, at a time when large, dramatic voices are scarce, what we usually get in roles needing big voices are voices that have been compromised by trying to be heavier than they are.
> 
> ...


The problem with Gilda is that many of those "lighter" voices cast in the role can seem a little underpowered in the last act. The singer needs to be able to ride the orchestra in the storm sequence. Many of those I've seen on stage can deliver a fine _Caro nome_, but get drowned out later. Not a problem for a Sutherland of course, but she hardly had the _physique du rôl_.

Wheni it comes to Mimi, I can appreciate Tebaldi's vocal splendour, but, for my taste, it's all a bit too grand for sweet little Mimi. This is much more to my liking.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I don't like the term "heavy." It has a negative connotation for me in most contexts, suggesting inflexibility, a limited range of (mostly loud) dynamics, and an ungainly emission (like, maybe, the mature Astrid Varnay ). I'm not sure what word or words I'd use instead, but to go along with the premise, I'd have to say that I'm not bothered by bigger, darker voices in "lighter" roles, roles representing young people, if they're employed with fine technique and artistic appropriateness. After all, young people can have large, dark voices. I do prefer, say, a Gilda who has a naturally sweet, innocent quality to one who doesn't - I always imagine Galli-Curci in my ideal Rigoletto cast - but who would want to forego Callas pretending to be sweet and innocent? But then I guess she could pretend to be anything from a virginal soprano geisha to a sultry mezzo gypsy, so maybe we should leave her out of the equation.
> 
> The problem is, composers often write "heavy" music for roles that represent young people, and you can't give those roles to voices that best suggest the character. Tristan and Isolde are probably no older than twenty-one, and Siegfried and Parsifal are supercilious kids when we first meet them, but they will never sound (or look) that way, and we shouldn't expect them to, given the music they have to sing. But Wagner isn't the only culprit: Butterfly and Salome both need reserves of power for their richly scored climaxes. Unfortunately, at a time when large, dramatic voices are scarce, what we usually get in roles needing big voices are voices that have been compromised by trying to be heavier than they are.
> 
> ...


It's not so much that heavier voices can't be youthful sounding, but vocal music and vocal characteristics interact like one's fashion sense vs one's physical features. for example, you might take a young blonde woman with a round face, full lips and a wavy hair. The right clothing (say, a robin's egg blue summer dress with flowing designs) would highlight her soft features and make her appear youthful and healthy. However, the wrong clothing (say she wants to go for a more "sleek" look with lots of bold, geometric designs and a black and red color palette) would cause her features to appear puffy, faded, even slightly overweight.

If we use Callas for example, she sounds much younger to my ears singing music like Carmen, vs the bright, high-lying and delicate passages of Gilda, which are more fitted to, say, June Anderson or Natalie Dessay.

Even then though, there are limits. A dark, cavernous dramatic mezzo like Elena Obraztsova sounding youthful?....nope, never. On the male end, I'm a bass-baritone, and in spite of my neotenous features, my voice is way to dark to display anything approaching youthfulness. I didn't sound 16 even when I was 16.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> If we use Callas for example, she sounds much younger to my ears singing music like Carmen, vs the bright, high-lying and delicate passages of Gilda, which are more fitted to, say, June Anderson or Natalie Dessay.


As, Woodduck intimates, I'm not sure the chameloon-voiced Callas _is_ a good example.

Though she had a voice that was instantly recognisable, one of her greatest gifts is that each voice character she created is distinctly different one from another, even when she adopts a similar method. Thus, her Rosina and Amina (both incidentally recorded within a few months of each other) might share a similar forward placement and lightening of her basic sound, but they are quite different characters and she can make us feel that happiness for Rosina is quite a different thing from what it is for Amina. On the other hand, I don't think her Carmen is the least bit girlish, nor do I find her Gilda too mature, though she does subtly alter her timbre for before and after the seduction.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> The problem with Gilda is that many of those "lighter" voices cast in the role can seem a little underpowered in the last act. The singer needs to be able to ride the orchestra in the storm sequence. Many of those I've seen on stage can deliver a fine _Caro nome_, but get drowned out later. Not a problem for a Sutherland of course, but she hardly had the _physique du rôl_.
> 
> Wheni it comes to Mimi, I can appreciate Tebaldi's vocal splendour, but, for my taste, it's all a bit too grand for sweet little Mimi. This is much more to my liking.


In theory I don't disagree. No doubt there are voices more evocative of certain characters and more nearly ideal for them. The trouble is that composers make contradictory demands. As I suggested, Wagner is the classic case; a role like Siegfried or Kundry requires, for maximal musical and dramatic effect, a combination of traits impossible to find in one singer. You've pointed out that a virginal sounding soprano may not make the fullest effect in the storm scene of _Rigoletto_. Butterfly, growing from fragile innocence into tragic grandeur, has to start out sounding like Emma Kirkby and end up sounding like Eileen Farrell (a transformation which Callas accomplishes through sheer art but is beyond most sopranos). In general I will welcome a voice "too big" for a part if the singer has the technique and the artistry to understand the role and adapt to its musical demands. God knows we have little opportunity nowadays to witness this.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

I like big voices in Puccini. His librettists may describe soubrettish characters--young, dainty, delicate femmes, but the music comes off the best with a big spinto voice that allows the orchestra to fully swell without drowning out the singer. In some ways, the dramaturgical and the musical can be at odds.

Greg's clip of Vickie DLA illustrates this--Vickie sounds wonderful, touching, the very sound picture of delicate and frail femininity. But the music sounds as malnourished as Mimi is supposed to be. Which may add to the dramatic impact of the opera, but doesn't sell me on the musical composition.

To me, the point of a performance is for the performers to sell me on the music, not for the music to sell me on the performers. Big voices can sell me on Puccini, but smaller voices generally can't.






Now that sounds like a great composition. I listen to all that rich and wonderful music that Puccini wrote, that was almost inaudible in the VDLA clip above, and it seems a much greater and more worthwhile work, worthier of my time and attention. It's even more dramatically vivid and engaging for me--sure, Tebaldi sounds awfully healthy and robust for a consumptive on death's door, but I hear the rapture of her falling in love here in a way that is absent in the VDLA clip.

(btw, this clip and the next one with Bjorling and Tebaldi pairing on O soave fanciulla makes me gnash my teeth that they never recorded the whole opera together--for me, the perfect Mimi and the perfect Rodolfo)

edited to add--argh, didn't see that you already linked this clip, Duck.

There used to be a clip on youtube I can't find anymore that had the full scene with Bjorling and Tebaldi, from Che gelida manina to the end, in better sound than the clips you and I posted. Luckily I downloaded it before it disappeared from youtube, it's absolutely wonderful.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

It bothers me way more than it should when lighter voiced singers sing Brunnhilde, Isolde, Elektra (Behrens), Siegfried, Tristan, Tannhauser (JHM), Wotan, Sachs, Dutchman (DFD). There are a lot more examples, but those singers immediately came to mind. Those roles are for heavyweights only!

I know this doesn't follow the topic exactly, but I saw this opportunity to vent lol


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

howlingfantods said:


> I like big voices in Puccini. His librettists may describe soubrettish characters--young, dainty, delicate femmes, but the music comes off the best with a big spinto voice that allows the orchestra to fully swell without drowning out the singer. In some ways, the dramaturgical and the musical can be at odds.
> 
> Greg's clip of Vickie DLA illustrates this--Vickie sounds wonderful, touching, the very sound picture of delicate and frail femininity. But the music sounds as malnourished as Mimi is supposed to be. Which may add to the dramatic impact of the opera, but doesn't sell me on the musical composition.
> 
> ...


I saw the full scene before it disappeared, and it's infuriating that it did. I thought I'd lost interest in this opera until I watched these two in it, and their performance makes this my second favorite opera film after the Callas Tosca at Covent Garden. I sent it to my sister, who was blown away by it. I hope the complete scene comes back so that everyone can experience the full impact of what is after all a great opera when its requirements are met fully.


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## pianoville (Jul 19, 2018)

For me Gurnemanz requires a heavier voice. I almost can't listen to a lighter voice singing that role. For roles that I like lighter voices in I would say Parsifal and Siegfried.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

Claggart must absolutely be a dark, heavy basso profondo, the kind who is also a great Hagen or Inquisitor. Bass-baritones have no business anywhere near him. Same goes for the Commendatore.

While I do like a lot of "lighter" baritones as Rodrigo, when I hear a real Verdi baritone with the kind of dramatic power that's rare nowadays, Rodrigo suddenly goes from "hot revolutionary twink" to "badass motherf*cker to tells the king exactly what he thinks about him".

Also, Filippo needs to be a true bass. (Raimondi don't interact)

I prefer true basses as Boris, even if he's a relatively high-lying role, they are better for Drama(TM).

Grimes on the other hand... I have a burning hatred for big, bearlike, scenery-chewing Heldentenors in this role. He should be menacing, yes, but he also needs to be vulnerable. Langridge balanced the two perfectly.

I prefer Gustavo on the lighter end of spinto.

Wotans - I have heard excellent ones, both lighter (McIntyre) and even real basses (Tomlinson). It's very long and complex, so each will have different challenges. 

Brünnhilde - heavy. I couldn't stand Behrens. I'd rather listen to someone who can sing it properly.

Don Giovanni - I sort of prefer lyric baritones over bass-baritones (better contrast with Leporello), but the singer's charisma stat and acting is more important. I have almost never heard bad singing from a Don G.

Azucena - give me that dramatic power. Lighter voices never worked for me.

Bánk bán - now, this is normally a dramatic tenor role, but I recently saw it in the baritone version, and it was really interesting to hear. The whole dynamic changes. The character becomes less heroic-sounding and more contemplative and melancholy (which he actually is supposed to be).


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## mjohnh18 (Apr 13, 2017)

I dislike it strongly when Gilda is sung by a chirpy, light coloratura soprano. I'd rather a full lyric or lirico-spinto to carry through the storm sequence in Act III.

Same with Desdemona. I'd rather a voice on the lirico-spinto end instead of a lyric like Fleming.

I think one of the common misunderstandings of vocal fachs in the world right now is that Wagner must be sung my the loudest voices possible. That is not true. Wagner requires endurance, not necessarily volume. Wagner borrows a lot from bel canto. I don't mind if my Wagner singers are on the lighter side, especially in an opera like Lohengrin. Tristan, however, is a different story.

I think French operas lend themselves to more lyric singing. I prefer a full lyric tenor for Don Jose.

Whereas Puccini I like more dramatic voices. Puccini often has many instruments in the orchestra doubling the vocal line, therefore I think a louder voice is needed to carry through. Liu, Mimi, Tosca, Butterfly should always be sung by lirico-spinto voices, in my mind.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

mjohnh18 said:


> Whereas Puccini I like more dramatic voices. Puccini often has many instruments in the orchestra doubling the vocal line, therefore I think a louder voice is needed to carry through. Liu, Mimi, Tosca, Butterfly should always be sung by lirico-spinto voices, in my mind.


I prefer a really loud and hair raising Butterfly or when it comes to recordings that gives the illusion of being loud. I think it is something very special.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Sloe said:


> I prefer a really loud and hair raising Butterfly or when it comes to recordings that gives the illusion of being loud. I think it is something very special. I mean think one that really gives a really earpaining mASCORDAAAAAAAAATA that is how I want it.


Listen to Callas sing it!


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Listen to Callas sing it!


I have and I have earlier said it is one of her better recordings my favourite together with Medea but don't give comandments please.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Sloe said:


> I have and I have earlier said it is one of her better recordings my favourite together with Medea but don't give comandments please.


I'm sorry. It wasn't meant as one. It's just that the way you wrote it reminded me precisely of how Callas sings it.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> I'm sorry. It wasn't meant as one. It's just that the way you wrote it reminded me precisely of how Callas sings it.


Well I think I said too much and felt a bit embarrassed when I saw your answer which felt like an I got you.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

pianoville said:


> For me Gurnemanz requires a heavier voice. I almost can't listen to a lighter voice singing that role.


My favourites in that role are Hans Hotter, Gottlob Frick, Kurt Moll and John Tomlinson, so that works for me 

Edit: Just remembered Boris Christoff, although I've only heard him sing the part once or twice. What a voice, though!


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Queen of the Night - I dislike bright soubrette types like Berger and Sumi Jo. I can tolerate Rita Streich, but just barely. Give me Edda Moser or Cristina Deutekom instead.

Idomeneo - the bigger the voice, the better I like it, as long as they can sing the fioratura. Best I've ever heard was Ben Heppner at the Met, early in his career.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

wkasimer said:


> Queen of the Night - I dislike bright soubrette types like Berger and Sumi Jo. I can tolerate Rita Streich, but just barely. Give me Edda Moser or Cristina Deutekom instead.
> 
> Idomeneo - the bigger the voice, the better I like it, as long as they can sing the fioratura. Best I've ever heard was Ben Heppner at the Met, early in his career.


^this.

tbh, I mostly like delicate coloratura sopranos as background. ex: singing a stratospheric descant line in a quartet rather than having the main aria. girly sounding music in general irks me


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Bonetan said:


> It bothers me way more than it should when lighter voiced singers sing Brunnhilde, Isolde


Sometimes it works. Not sure I'd describe Regine Crespin's voice as "light", but it certainly had an airy quality, and I loved her Brunnhilde. Likewise, Margaret Price's Isolde is one of my all-time favourites, albeit only on record; she resisted offers to sing the role on stage, and that was certainly a good decision on her part.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Likewise, Margaret Price's Isolde is one of my all-time favourites, albeit only on record; she resisted offers to sing the role on stage, and that was certainly a good decision on her part.


This is a tricky thing for me. Part of me thinks if you didn't sing a role onstage comfortably & effectively over a period of years you aren't a ________ at all. But I know that's not entirely fair.

Truth be told, I dismiss studio recordings in a lot of ways...


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Bonetan said:


> This is a tricky thing for me. Part of me thinks if you didn't sing a role onstage comfortably & effectively over a period of years you aren't a ________ at all. But I know that's not entirely fair.


It's certainly fair - but for a recordings, it really isn't relevant, is it?


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Sometimes it works. Not sure I'd describe Regine Crespin's voice as "light", but it certainly had an airy quality, and I loved her Brunnhilde.


I am told by reliable witnesses that however lyrically Crespin sang, the voice itself was enormous.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

wkasimer said:


> It's certainly fair - but for a recordings, it really isn't relevant, is it?


I honestly don't know how to answer this. If you find an ultra adventurous conductor Beyonce could sing Isolde, know what I mean?? That's a joke obviously, but that's somewhat how I feel about studio recordings lol


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Bonetan said:


> I honestly don't know how to answer this. If you find an ultra adventurous conductor Beyonce could sing Isolde, know what I mean?? That's a joke obviously, but that's somewhat how I feel about studio recordings lol


Keep in mind that Callas and Price recorded a ton of music that they never performed on stage. It doesn't make those recordings less valuable. And there are singers who successfully essayed roles on stage that they recorded less successfully.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

wkasimer said:


> Keep in mind that Callas and Price recorded a ton of music that they never performed on stage. It doesn't make those recordings less valuable. And there are singers who successfully essayed roles on stage that they recorded less successfully.


Yes, you're absolutely correct. It's just as a singer, I know that there are roles that I could sing in a studio recording & sound good that I could never get through on stage. & personally I'd have a really hard time calling myself a great example in those roles in such a case. Not to say at all that Callas & Price couldn't have sung the roles you mentioned on stage...


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## Stallo (Apr 24, 2018)

wkasimer said:


> Queen of the Night - I dislike bright soubrette types like Berger and Sumi Jo. I can tolerate Rita Streich, but just barely. Give me Edda Moser or Cristina Deutekom instead.
> 
> Idomeneo - the bigger the voice, the better I like it, as long as they can sing the fioratura. Best I've ever heard was Ben Heppner at the Met, early in his career.


I love Sumi in the role. No one sings the coloratura passages as precisely. Underdeveloped voices with a small core on the other hand just doesnt sound right to me. But the voice doesnt have to be huge. Deutekom and Moser are awesome as well, we agree on that.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

wkasimer said:


> Keep in mind that Callas and Price recorded a ton of music that they never performed on stage. It doesn't make those recordings less valuable. And there are singers who successfully essayed roles on stage that they recorded less successfully.


Was it really that many? The roles Callas recorded but never sang on stage were Nedda, Mimi, Manon Lescaut and Carmen. All the others she had sung, even if only once or twice.

I am not so familiar with Price's career, but I'm fairly sure she too sang on stage most of the complete roles she recorded. I don't think she ever sang Carmen, ditto Ariadne and Donna Elvira (though she did sing Donna Anna). Other than that, I'm pretty sure she sang all the others.

Both would have been quite capable of singing those recording only roles on stage too, I'd have thought.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

It's generally not hard to tell whether a recorded voice that sounds acceptable in a given role is of sufficient format to make a good effect in that role on the stage. Margaret Price's Isolde is lovely, but all too obviously a product of the recording studio. This doesn't bother some people as much as it does me; with her and Rene Kollo standing in for Flagstad and Melchior, I can't quite believe I'm hearing the opera. No doubt Schwarzkopf could have sung a sympathetic Sieglinde into a microphone, but why?

One of the most successful recorded forays of a lighter voice into heavier repertoire I can recall is Bjorling's Calaf. He didn't sing it in the house, but no one sings it better on records, and I've never felt that he was too light for the part. This may be partly because Nilsson isn't recorded particulary well, something that becomes clear when you hear her and Corelli blow the roof off on some live recordings.

Another effective example of a role taken by a lighter-than-usual voice is Cio Cio San sung by Toti dal Monte. The role really demands a big voice that can be scaled back, but Dal Monte's voice, like Bjorling's, makes up in cleanness of focus what it lacks in sheer power.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> It's generally not hard to tell whether a recorded voice that sounds acceptable in a given role is of sufficient format to make a good effect in that role on the stage. Margaret Price's Isolde is lovely, but all too obviously a product of the recording studio. This doesn't bother some people as much as it does me; with her and Rene Kollo standing in for Flagstad and Melchior, I can't quite believe I'm hearing the opera. No doubt Schwarzkopf could have sung a sympathetic Sieglinde into a microphone, but why?
> 
> One of the most successful recorded forays of a lighter voice into heavier repertoire I can recall is Bjorling's Calaf. He didn't sing it in the house, but no one sings it better on records, and I've never felt that he was too light for the part. This may be partly because Nilsson isn't recorded particulary well, something that becomes clear when you hear her and Corelli blow the roof off on some live recordings.
> 
> Another effective example of a role taken by a lighter-than-usual voice is Cio Cio San sung by Toti dal Monte. The role really demands a big voice that can be scaled back, but Dal Monte's voice, like Bjorling's, makes up in cleanness of focus what it lacks in sheer power.


Has there been a thread about this? I'm going to start one. I would love to hear some more examples


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> It's generally not hard to tell whether a recorded voice that sounds acceptable in a given role is of sufficient format to make a good effect in that role on the stage. Margaret Price's Isolde is lovely, but all too obviously a product of the recording studio. This doesn't bother some people as much as it does me; with her and Rene Kollo standing in for Flagstad and Melchior, I can't quite believe I'm hearing the opera. No doubt Schwarzkopf could have sung a sympathetic Sieglinde into a microphone, but why?
> 
> One of the most successful recorded forays of a lighter voice into heavier repertoire I can recall is Bjorling's Calaf. He didn't sing it in the house, but no one sings it better on records, and I've never felt that he was too light for the part. This may be partly because Nilsson isn't recorded particulary well, something that becomes clear when you hear her and Corelli blow the roof off on some live recordings.
> 
> Another effective example of a role taken by a lighter-than-usual voice is Cio Cio San sung by Toti dal Monte. The role really demands a big voice that can be scaled back, but Dal Monte's voice, like Bjorling's, makes up in cleanness of focus what it lacks in sheer power.


For me, the major problem with Margaret Price's Isolde is really one of vocal personality rather than size. Isolde requires a singer who can project fury and despair. Price is best at the sort of wounded innocence of a Desdemona or an Amelia, or the dignity and nobility of a Donna Anna or Countess Rosina. There's just not much of the Isolde in her. I still enjoy listening to her in the Kleiber quite a bit though, but this would never be the recording I'd recommend to others as a primary recording of T&I.

Bjorling was great at bigger roles. I would take his Don Carlo, Manrico, Calaf or Radames over practically any others, and he was actually considering Otello around the time of his tragically early death. Again, I think a lot has to do with vocal personality--Bjorling could project the kind of dramatic intensity these roles require. Whereas I find di Stefano, another similarly sweet voiced singer, to be pretty unsatisfying because he lacks that dramatic intensity.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

howlingfantods said:


> For me, the major problem with Margaret Price's Isolde is really one of vocal personality rather than size. Isolde requires a singer who can project fury and despair. Price is best at the sort of wounded innocence of a Desdemona or an Amelia, or the dignity and nobility of a Donna Anna or Countess Rosina. There's just not much of the Isolde in her. I still enjoy listening to her in the Kleiber quite a bit though, but this would never be the recording I'd recommend to others as a primary recording of T&I.
> 
> Bjorling was great at bigger roles. I would take his Don Carlo, Manrico, Calaf or Radames over practically any others, and he was actually considering Otello around the time of his tragically early death. Again, I think a lot has to do with vocal personality--Bjorling could project the kind of dramatic intensity these roles require. Whereas I find di Stefano, another similarly sweet voiced singer, to be pretty unsatisfying because he lacks that dramatic intensity.


I agree with you up to a point, but I would never accuse Di Stefano of lacking dramatic intensity, even in the roles that were too heavy for him, though I've never heard him as Don Carlo, Radames or Calaf. His voice is on the light side for Manrico, but he almost convinces (me anyway) with the sheer force of his personality. I am a big fan of Bjoerling, but I recently listened to both the Beecham and Votto *La Boheme*, both recorded in the same year 1956, to find Bjoerling a relatively reticent presence compared to Di Stefano. He has better musical manners, and his singing is gorgeous, with that free, ringing top register, but di Stefano is the more characterful singer, the more ebullient Bohemian. Both of them recorded Pinkerton with De Los Angeles as Butterfly, but Bjoerling is a bit stiff, where di Stefano is full of seductive charm.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

GregMitchell said:


> I agree with you up to a point, but I would never accuse Di Stefano of lacking dramatic intensity, even in the roles that were too heavy for him, though I've never heard him as Don Carlo, Radames or Calaf. His voice is on the light side for Manrico, but he almost convinces (me anyway) with the sheer force of his personality. I am a big fan of Bjoerling, but I recently listened to both the Beecham and Votto *La Boheme*, both recorded in the same year 1956, to find Bjoerling a relatively reticent presence compared to Di Stefano. He has better musical manners, and his singing is gorgeous, with that free, ringing top register, but di Stefano is the more characterful singer, the more ebullient Bohemian. Both of them recorded Pinkerton with De Los Angeles as Butterfly, but Bjoerling is a bit stiff, where di Stefano is full of seductive charm.


Di Stefano has a relaxed and easy way about his singing which is very charming for roles like Pinkerton and Rodolfo or the Duke, but sounds wrong and frankly pretty terrible to me for Manrico, Alvaro, Canio, and the like.

He does this thing with dramatic roles where he still sounds relaxed and easy and charming, but fries his vocal chords by opening up and singing at max at dramatic moments. But to me, it doesn't actually sounding at all like a dramatic character going through emotions, but just like an overparted singer demonstrating commitment by audibly damaging his voice to sell the performance to the audience. In other words, he makes me very aware of his performance, and his struggle with his performance. Which is another way of saying that he takes me out of the experience of listening to Verdi's Trovatore, and instead makes me very aware of the experience of listening to Di Stefano struggling to play the role of Manrico. Which is exciting, in a way, but doesn't actually sell me on the actual composition, which is the main thing I look for in a performance.

Even in the less dramatic moments for these operas, the his easygoing voice seems super wrong to me. Manrico, Alvaro, Canio aren't charming, lighthearted, happy-go-lucky guys.


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## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

For me Di Stefano had dramatic intensity to spare. Even in too heavy roles for his voice he could sell it. Until he ruined his voice that is, but before that he did a pretty good job with heavier roles too. Someone who saw Di Stefano singing Turandot with Nilsson said that Di Stefano was red in the face for trying to keep up with Nilsson. Nilsson had a voice that could make tenors just disappear in dramatic moments, but not Di Stefano. You can still hear him in In questa reggia for example. You can find Di Stefano singing Radames from live performance in La Scala from 1956 and I think he sounds pretty good. He may have ruined his voice, but you got to give the man credit for going all out. I'm just happy that there is so much to choose from and different singers bring something different to the roles. I for instance really liked Di Stefano as Canio, but I enjoy equally as much watching Del Monaco in the role. I can understand why people don't like to listen Di Stefano in roles that are too much for him, but he does have dramatic intensity. I have always thought of him as a dramatic tenor with the voice of a lyric tenor.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Heavier--Rodolfo in Verdi's _Luisa Miller_

Lighter--Strauss's Salome (e.g., Cheryl Studer)


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Gilda - I prefer a lighter voice, but as with all voices, it must be one with clean focus and resonance. Someone like Bidu Sayao is ideal.

Lucia - Again, lighter voices are my preference, and naturally lighter voices at that. For example, I don't particularly like the way Callas lightens her voice in a role like this or Gilda.

Mimi - I can have it either way, Albanese, Sayao, Tebaldi are all good. I really wish there could have been a full recording with Gigli and Muzio.

Norma - Heavy and dark. Caballe is acceptable. Sutherland too placid, Bartoli a joke. Callas is supreme here, I'm sure Raisa and Ponselle would have been too.

Pirata - Heavy. I think some people don't realise that dramatic bel canto roles need to be sung by big voices to give the proper impression. This requires a Norma.

Elvira, I Puritani - Lucia works well with a lighter voice. This role not so much. Maybe it is Bellini's music which just feels more right with a bigger sound.

Manrico - Heavier, but Bjorling sang the role so beautifully in 1938 that I can hardly bring myself to say it.

Carmen - Somewhere in the middle, a light soprano like De Los Angeles doesn't work for me, but neither does a dramatic mezzo. Germaine Cernay gives a beautiful Carmen. Very French.

Azucena - I'm just wondering why I've been seeing this discussed here at all? HEAVY!!

Butterfly - Again, nothing too heavy but not too light either. Clara Petrella works for me better than Callas, Tebaldi or Dal Monte.

Canio - This is a dramatic role, Di Stefano and Bjorling are okay because they have good instruments but they can't compete with Caruso, Martinelli or Del Monaco.

Desdemona - Full lyric or spinto. This role needs some push to it. Rethberg does a great job on the 1938 broadcast, one of Tebaldi's best roles too.

Aida - Price singing this role just seemed like tokenism. It requires a heavy voice.

Amina - I will admit that I'm not too interested in this opera and think of it more as a vehicle for vocal display. While, again, I'm not too fond of 'light voice' Callas, she is not so bad on the 1955 broadcast and lets it out in the moments of vocal display. I would be bored hearing a light voice singing this opera.

For the most part, parts up for debate should likely be sung by bigger voices. The driving factor for this sort of debate is almost certainly the current lack of large voices. Even Otello is being sung by lyric voices with poorer resonance than old-school tenore di grazias so it's not surprising that while most light roles aren't up for debate as they have remained the domain for light voices, heavier roles are now often seen as legitimate options for a light voice. How many people would have been having to clarify what type of voice should be singing Azucena 70 years ago?


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## OffPitchNeb (Jun 6, 2016)

I want Mozart's roles to be sung in big, full, Italianate voices. I have been listening to some 40s and 50s Mozart recordings with authentic Italian casts. It does sound better than the Mozartian we know with later studios recording (not to mention the pallid HIPsters). 

Callas said, "Mozart is usually sung with too much delicacy, as though the singer were on tiptoes". I agree with her big time. Not sure how her friend Schwarzkopf would have taken it.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

OffPitchNeb said:


> I want Mozart's roles to be sung in big, full, Italianate voices. I have been listening to some 40s and 50s Mozart recordings with authentic Italian casts. It does sound better than the Mozartian we know with later studios recording (not to mention the pallid HIPsters).
> 
> Callas said, "Mozart is usually sung with too much delicacy, as though the singer were on tiptoes". I agree with her big time. Not sure how her friend Schwarzkopf would have taken it.


Schwarzkopf would certainly have agreed. Her voice wasn't a heavy one, and she always sang sensitively, but I'd never characterize her as singing on tiptoes. Her Donna Elvira, for example, is quite intense.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Schwarzkopf and Zylis-Gara in the first half of Dove Sono.... for me it’s really a toss up, which is saying an awful lot for Zylis-Gara. But once the stakes rise In the second half, it’s no longer a toss up...Zylis-Gara is still limpid, Schwarzkopf is in charge and she accomplishes it musically! attack, diction, slancio!


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Verdi’s supposedly heavy tenor roles - Radames, Manrico, Alvaro- have been famously sung by Delmonaco and the heavyweights and the young Domingo and Bjoerling in their pure spinto years ( guess this forum proves there’s no such thing as a “pure” spinto if listeners agreeing is a prerequisite 😆) But I’ve long felt that the majority of the music in these roles require suppleness and a musical line that alternates attack with release in a way that I don’t associate with the heavys! For me, You can survive the Pira high C (B) and still succeed as Manrico. (I can think of few tenors who could be counted on to do much more than that) But a tenor cannot merely survive Ah Si Ben Mio and be a successful Manrico. It needs to be memorable. Give me a (wonderful ) spinto In this music, pretty much every time! (........okay, yes..... I would Have been willing to see Delmonaco😆)


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

wkasimer said:


> I am told by reliable witnesses that however lyrically Crespin sang, the voice itself was enormous.


I remember reading years ago that the top B in Senta sung by Crespin was titanic in size. She also sang a really big low D in Schubert's Death and the Maiden.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Op.123 said:


> Gilda - I prefer a lighter voice, but as with all voices, it must be one with clean focus and resonance. Someone like Bidu Sayao is ideal.
> 
> Lucia - Again, lighter voices are my preference, and naturally lighter voices at that. For example, I don't particularly like the way Callas lightens her voice in a role like this or Gilda.
> 
> ...


Much of what you write I agree with  I think Price had a big voice over much of her range. I think the only area of the opera where she might have lacked enough umph was in the Triumphal Scene. Only in Zweite Brautnacht does she get some good volume at the top of her voice, but the orchestra pulls back for those notes.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I remember reading years ago that the top B in Senta sung by Crespin was titanic in size. She also sang a really big low D in Schubert's Death and the Maiden.


I was onstage with Crespin as a chorister in _Les Troyens_ in the 1970s. Yes, her voice was large. It must have sounded even larger from the audience, but as a Carthaginian spear-carrier, I was always behind her.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Aida is one of my favorite operas but some of my favorite Aidas have the quality of both types of singers because of their big dramatic voices but also who can float gorgeous pianissimos in the Nile scene: Nilsson, Caballe, Ponselle and Milanov.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I remember reading years ago that the top B in Senta sung by Crespin was titanic in size. She also sang a really big low D in Schubert's Death and the Maiden.


There’s a recording on YouTube of Crespin and Corelli doing the love duet from Ballo and it’s been a while since I’ve heard it but the way I remember it is that they come to the big climax and you can’t hear Corelli!!!! How often do you say that?


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Op.123 said:


> Gilda - I prefer a lighter voice, but as with all voices, it must be one with clean focus and resonance. Someone like Bidu Sayao is ideal.
> 
> Lucia - Again, lighter voices are my preference, and naturally lighter voices at that. For example, I don't particularly like the way Callas lightens her voice in a role like this or Gilda.
> 
> ...


I just can’t agree with your overall take to lean heavier. Canio, Otello… roles like that with a great deal of declamation, on those I agree. But so many of the “heavy roles” still contain so much music which requires a more deft musical hand, A combination of words and music and character, that as much as I love them, I don’t really expect to get from Delmonaco and Giacomini


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

ScottK said:


> I just can’t agree with your overall take to lean heavier. Canio, Otello… roles like that with a great deal of declamation, on those I agree. But so many of the “heavy roles” still contain so much music which requires a more deft musical hand, A combination of words and music and character, that as much as I love them, I don’t really expect to get from Delmonaco and Giacomini


By heavy I don't mean dramatic and certainly don't mean inflexible. I would say anything beyond full-lyric could be classed as heavier, especially with today's operatic voices where a voice approaching to amplitude and weight of a true full lyric is increasingly rare.


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Cesira Ferrani who created Mimi and Manon Lescaut was more of a lyric, but then even the lighter voices used more chest resonance. In Italy these voices also had more of a cutting edge to the top. Licia Albanese was from this tradition.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I have to say that when it comes to roles like Elvira in *I Puritani*, Lucia in *Lucia di Lammermoor *and Amina in *La Sonnambula*, I wouldn't even listen to them if it weren't for Callas. The only other singers I've half way enjoyed in those roles (Sutherland and Caballé, for instance) could hardly be said to have light voices either. I really can't take the likes of Lily Pons and other lightweight sopranos singing them.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I have to say that when it comes to roles like Elvira in *I Puritani*, Lucia in *Lucia di Lammermoor *and Amina in *La Sonnambula*, I wouldn't even listen to them if it weren't for Callas. The only other singers I've half way enjoyed in those roles (Sutherland and Caballé, for instance) could hardly be said to have light voices either. I really can't take the likes of Lily Pons and other lightweight sopranos singing them.


Have you heard Lisette Oropesa's Lucia? She has a lighter/smaller voice than any of those bel canto three, but her voice has a dark quality that she uses to great expressive depths. (You should be able to at least find excerpts on YouTube from her performance in Madrid.

She also performed the Sonnambula aria at the ROH streamed gala during lockdown - and I wasn't anywhere near as impressed with that though.

N.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I have to say that when it comes to roles like Elvira in *I Puritani*, Lucia in *Lucia di Lammermoor *and Amina in *La Sonnambula*, I wouldn't even listen to them if it weren't for Callas. The only other singers I've half way enjoyed in those roles (Sutherland and Caballé, for instance) could hardly be said to have light voices either. I really can't take the likes of Lily Pons and other lightweight sopranos singing them.


I'm not overly fond of Lily Pons either, but can also find Callas's lightening of her voice for her post-weightloss Lucias a little too artificial sometimes. Lina Pagliughi makes a beautiful Lucia, though I'm not so fussed with her Sonnambula.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

The lighter bel canto sopranos of the Pons type work far better in the comic rep than they do in the tragedies.

Pons is quite good in Barber and Fille.

N.


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