# An Often Discussed (And Laboured) Topic Here At TC For Your Reading Delectation



## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

Enjoy

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21731740


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

This is the second time I see threads on this topic today and the fourth time since New Year. Of course, someone might say that I have subjective, personal reasons to dislike this topic. However, I believe, even from a viewpoint if a totally objective, disinterested observer, two threads in a day and four in two months on a subject that has hardly anything to do with music, are just a little *TOO MUCH!!!*


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## Wood (Feb 21, 2013)

SiegendesLicht said:


> This is the second time I see threads on this topic today and the fourth time since New Year. Of course, someone might say that I have subjective, personal reasons to dislike this topic. However, I believe, even from a viewpoint if a totally objective, disinterested observer, two threads in a day and four in two months on a subject that has hardly anything to do with music, are just a little *TOO MUCH!!!*


This issue is new to me but I would like to understand it. What are your reasons for wishing to suppress the discussion of this topic?


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Well, first of all, it has already been discussed ad nauseam here: http://www.talkclassical.com/23118-unwelcome-anniversary.html And second, just what is the point of such a "revelation" today? To put a smear on the VPO whose crew of world's best professionals has absolutely nothing to do with the events of 70 years past.. or worse, to taint everything good, noble and glorious that comes out of that part of the world (I mean Austria/Germany)?


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

sauerkraut?????????????????


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

Most countries have loads of dirty laundry and a public white wash is always the best way to deal with it! 

The tarnishing burden of shame in this case and many other, is fact that the organisations behind have not started the cleansing much earlier, and it does not matter if the country is named Austria, North Korea, Sweden or The USA!

Dirty Laundry is never flattering!

/ptr


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

_ptr_, I suspect you are using the term 'whitewash' incorrectly. It has nothing to do with dirty laundry. I also suspect that half-a-century of airing the bedding is long enough; the dog isn't sleeping, it's dead.

[Gadfry, that paragraph is so bromide-loaded that digestion is seriously impaired. Seems like letting it out ought to let me feel better.]


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

Poor knowledge of English Language equivalents, I just used a "happy" translation; *White wash* as in washing bed linen, not as in whitewashing the stables, I'm slightly aware of the difference, I whitewashed my Uncles stables as a kid and I'm naturally pale, but I've never been as white as then 

/ptr


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

ptr said:


> Poor knowledge of English Language equivalents, I just used a "happy" translation; *White wash* as in washing bed linen, not as in whitewashing the stables, I'm slightly aware of the difference, I whitewashed my Uncles stables as a kid and I'm naturally pale, but I've never been as white as then
> 
> /ptr


The interior of my uncle's cow barn got whitewashed every few years, a process that discomforted the spiders for a day or so... and lightened the place (and the appliers) up. Made moving the manure a more cheerful chore.

The city folks among us don't know those simple pleasures.

[...moving the manure...cheerful chore... I'm on a roll here.]


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## Wood (Feb 21, 2013)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Well, first of all, it has already been discussed ad nauseam here: http://www.talkclassical.com/23118-unwelcome-anniversary.html And second, just what is the point of such a "revelation" today? To put a smear on the VPO whose crew of world's best professionals has absolutely nothing to do with the events of 70 years past.. or worse, to taint everything good, noble and glorious that comes out of that part of the world (I mean Austria/Germany)?


I see, thanks for the link. That was quite a thread. Pity it got closed.

I can understand your frustration that the Holocaust issue keeps popping up, particularly if you are young.

However, revealing past fascist sympathies and activities of members of the VPO would not smear the current musicians. It would appear that events of the more recent past, ie much less than 70 years ago, are both significant and interesting, such as the ring story and the omission of relevant facts from the 1990s history book.


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2013)

Sunrise is the best disinfectant. Publish every embarrassing detail, respond sensitively and thoughtfully to people's reactions, and move on.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

hayd said:


> This issue is new to me but I would like to understand it. What are your reasons for wishing to suppress the discussion of this topic?


How can it possibly be new to you?
Also SiegendestLicht is German and yes it's been gone over enough really, it is all well documented.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Hilltroll72 said:


> The interior of my uncle's cow barn got whitewashed every few years, a process that discomforted the spiders for a day or so... and lightened the place (and the appliers) up. Made moving the manure a more cheerful chore.
> 
> The city folks among us don't know those simple pleasures.
> 
> [...moving the manure...cheerful chore... I'm on a roll here.]


And then you'd all sit around yodelling and playing your squeezeboxes and eating grits.


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## Wood (Feb 21, 2013)

moody said:


> How can it possibly be new to you?
> Also SiegendestLicht is German and yes it's been gone over enough really, it is all well documented.


See my join date.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

If just the anticipation can cause all this angst, what happens Tuesday? That's day after tomorrow...


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

hayd said:


> See my join date.


But this is nothing particularly to do with TC it is history and general knowledge.


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## Wood (Feb 21, 2013)

moody said:


> But this is nothing particularly to do with TC it is history and general knowledge.


Yes it clearly touches on a number of sensitive areas which are much wider than classical music.

Nevertheless, this is about the recent history of one of the world's most famous orchestras. I would have thought it had much greater relevance than some of the topics on TC.

For example:

Are some of the recordings we listen to composed and / or performed by fascists and racists? Does it matter?

Is classical music compromised in any way by it's being funded by the forces of reaction (religion and the state)?

These are interesting questions & the current news item about the VPO is surely relevant in this respect.

For those who find such discussions painful or uninteresting, can they not just ignore the thread?


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Well its good that the VPO is letting out more information about its history. It fits the current philosophy of many corporations & governments around the world to aim for transparency.

I was vocal on the 'Unwelcome Anniversary' thread but I did research after it got locked. The VPO have bought into the open their role in the Shoah. They commemorated the Holocaust over 10 years ago when Simon Rattle conducted this orchestra at a concert at the notorious Mauthausen concentration camp. This concert was broadcast all over the world on TV. I did not watch it but and acquaintance did. Some of the survivors as well as their relatives sang in the choir and where dressed in the black and white uniforms of inmates in the camps. There was no applause at the end of the concert, to mark silence for the dead, and the concert was done at night by candlelight.

The work they performed was Beethoven's Symphony #9, 'Choral.'

There are sources about this on the net if people want to research/check. Maybe some of you saw this performance? It was controversial in Austria though, the then far right Haider government was in power, and they had members who downplayed/denied the Shoah.

My take on all this is that I have a very jaundiced view of European civilisation. I don't see it as better than any other culture, eg. African, Asian, Middle Eastern or whatever. It is obvious that many great patrons of the arts where horrible tyrants throughout history. Eg. Frederick the Great, Napoleon, the decayed and absolutist French, Habsburg, Russian monarchies, you had various political and religious ideologies taken to an extreme which caused so much harm and death, but because they had this nice facade of culture, we kind of forgive and forget.

Well I personally can NEVER forgive and forget. I am angry and sadded still by those events, both the genocides of Hitler and Stalin. However at some stage one has to move on. I am all for commemorating events like the Shoah, in both history and music, and exposure on documentaries and records such as the Shoah Foundation in the USA, which is a great resources for personal testimonies of survivors. Since many of those people are no longer with us, its important the world remembers this atrocity to never let it happen again. With the rise of far right goverments in Europe in recent decades it is very important for this history to be preserved and known. I am worried there may be another war, a third world war, within my lifetime caused again by extreme elements in Europe, just like the other two. I dearly hope I am wrong in this 'prediction' of sorts.

But basically the VPO's history/role in relation to these events is a piece of the jigsaw and I think its a good thing that its being addressed in recent times.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

> Are some of the recordings we listen to composed and / or performed by fascists and racists? Does it matter?


possibly; but by the same token we might have to look at the possible nefarious associations of all orchestras and opera houses. And if the answer is yes, what are we going to do? And how about the composers whose views we don't agree with? I choose music.



> Is classical music compromised in any way by it's being funded by the forces of reaction (religion and the state)?


for me it's not compromised but people can choose what to boycott. I boycott Starbucks, Pepsi, Coca Cola, MickyD's and Nike and listen to VPO, although even recently they have been accused of racism and sexism, neither of which I approve of. You've got to pick your battles.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

hayd said:


> Yes it clearly touches on a number of sensitive areas which are much wider than classical music.
> 
> Nevertheless, this is about the recent history of one of the world's most famous orchestras. I would have thought it had much greater relevance than some of the topics on TC.
> 
> ...


Relevent to what?
Recordings by the V.P.O and the Berlin Phil from WWII are available but the members of these orchestras are all dead now.
Music composed by racists is neither here nor there,how does one know who is racist? If one does then shun that music ,that's easy enough i would have thought.
Some people say that Wagner was,should we outlaw his music? But then a number of other composers apparently were .outlaw them--and who does the outlawing?
The questions you ask are not particularly interesting ,the matter of von Schirach and the ring certainly is not.We have always known that the Austrians of that time were rabid Nazis,more so than the Germans.we must also remember that Hitler was Austrian himself. The Anschluss was welcomed by most of the population and so it is no surprise that leading Nazis were honoured in various ways.
This newspaper story adds nothing of importance to the history of those years.
Perhaps you should worry more about the fact that the USA took the leading Nazis involved in Hitler's nucleur programme back to the USA (von Braun,etc.) and set them up in business there. But,then again we know all about that as well.
Lastly,what do you propose should be done to the V.P.O.,disband the whole setup ?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

To belabor it some more, this just in: "Details revealed on Sunday showed that 60 of the orchestra's 123 musicians were members of the Nazi party - a much higher percentage than in the broader Austrian population. Of the 13 musicians driven out of the orchestra for being Jewish or married to Jews, five died in concentration camps, others were deported, but none returned, the report says."

There's also more on the "Von Schirach ring" (no, not *that* ring!)


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

hayd said:


> Yes it clearly touches on a number of sensitive areas which are much wider than classical music.
> 
> Nevertheless, this is about the recent history of one of the world's most famous orchestras. I would have thought it had much greater relevance than some of the topics on TC.
> 
> ...


To add to my longer post above, I think its AWARENESS that is important regarding these issues. I think its important to know these issues for everyone, but what the individual makes of this (eg. the conclusions drawn) is up to the individual.

AS I said I'm cynical of many aspects of Europe's modern history which I've studied and taken an interest in over the years:

First we got the Enlightenment which was a clear FAIL. A bunch of philosophies for intellectuals to discuss in their salons means nothing to the ordinary 'man on the street' who, if he fights for his rights in a revolution, is simply put up against a wall and shot.

Then in the 20th century we got various things that went sour. We got the hangover from nationalism in the 19th century which morphed into fascism. We got Marxism again from the previous century which morphed into Communism and eventually Stalinism. Again, a clear FAIL for these ideologies. The rhetoric was that these would bring heaven on earth but in reality they gave us hell.

Then late 20th century, after 1945 we got the European Union which is now crumbling. I actually thought this was a good idea initially but now I see it as another FAIL. Eg. the rise of the far right in Europe (even in the UK, correct me if I'm wrong?).

So what do we have left? Europe as a pretty museum piece, with all that great art, music, philosophy, etc. All these nice things. In reality, there is bad and good everywhere. I just don't like when we beef up the good things and shove the unpleasant things under the carpet. Just leads to a repeat of history, of those bad things that always seem to come back and hit us where it hurts.

Of course this is broadening the topic but I think these things are relevant to the discussion. Its not just one thing, its many things, its all interconnected.


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## Wood (Feb 21, 2013)

moody said:


> Relevent to what?
> Recordings by the V.P.O and the Berlin Phil from WWII are available but the members of these orchestras are all dead now.
> Music composed by racists is neither here nor there,how does one know who is racist? If one does then shun that music ,that's easy enough i would have thought.
> Some people say that Wagner was,should we outlaw his music? But then a number of other composers apparently were .outlaw them--and who does the outlawing?
> ...


Everything in your post shows that the latest news item is both interesting and relevant because it provides additional detail to these historical issues.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

hayd said:


> Everything in your post shows that the latest news item is both interesting and relevant because it provides additional detail to these historical issues.


It does not,but how about answering it?


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## Wood (Feb 21, 2013)

Sid James said:


> <snip>
> 
> Then late 20th century, after 1945 we got the European Union which is now crumbling. I actually thought this was a good idea initially but now I see it as another FAIL. Eg. the rise of the far right in Europe (even in the UK, correct me if I'm wrong?).
> 
> Of course this is broadening the topic but I think these things are relevant to the discussion. Its not just one thing, its many things, its all interconnected.


The biggest threat in the western nations is the decline of the left wing political parties who have all adopted right wing policies. In essence we are living in one party states (euphemistically referred to as consensus politics). This situation applies as much to AUS, USA & UK as to the mainland European countries.

You are correct, there is a strong link to music here in the way that music has been used as a way of controlling the mass of the population. To quote your blog 'music is life, life is music'


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2013)

@Moody

The 'revealing' that members of organisations we'd prefer to to think of as enlightened were in fact members of another organisation we tend to think of as the complete opposite is not a revelation at all. This is old news. However, there is nothing wrong in revisiting history if it helps colour (grey) in the past in a more complete way than the black and white we can so easily become used to. To that extent, whether this is all news to hayd is irrelevant: it is of potential interest, especially if the VPO has claimed to act with integrity and honesty throughout its history and this research points to a different view.


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## Wood (Feb 21, 2013)

moody said:


> It does not,but how about answering it?


 Originally Posted by moody 
Relevent to what?

*Covered upthread.*

Music composed by racists is neither here nor there,how does one know who is racist?

*By examining their actions. Evidence. Such as this news item.*

Some people say that Wagner was *<racist>*,should we outlaw his music?
But then a number of other composers apparently were .outlaw them--and who does the outlawing?
Lastly,what do you propose should be done to the V.P.O.,disband the whole setup ?

*Straw man. I wish to understand about this, I have never proposed outlawing anything. This is why I did not originally answer this post. *


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## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

There is a term here in Germany that captures the essence of the polemic this thread and the news item has generated:

_Vergangenheitsbewältigung_

Clearly it is an on-going process, one that is far from resolved and one that is not limited to the people of Austria and Germany. In debating the issue, the polical leaning of contributers either right or left of the political continuum is not very far from the surface.

In and of itself this is revealing and interesting - though for some involved, unfortunate. We know of whom we speak I believe.


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## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

And so the story continues...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21731740

Enjoy?


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

> First we got the Enlightenment which was a clear FAIL. A bunch of philosophies for intellectuals to discuss in their salons means nothing to the ordinary 'man on the street' who, if he fights for his rights in a revolution, is simply put up against a wall and shot.


I think you're being too harsh on the Enlightenment. Many good things developed from their ideas (human rights in general, if I'm not mistaken). But as history has shown time and again, ideas are very different from their implementation. There are too many factors involved when things are put into practice. I also think we can pretty much guarantee now that after every revolution the status quo is more or less replaced. The new regime will not be favourable to those who sacrificed most. At best, some old "customs" will have been replaced and some rights will have been gained. At worst, the country will be in turmoil for decades.



> Then in the 20th century we got various things that went sour. We got the hangover from nationalism in the 19th century which morphed into fascism. We got Marxism again from the previous century which morphed into Communism and eventually Stalinism. Again, a clear FAIL for these ideologies. The rhetoric was that these would bring heaven on earth but in reality they gave us hell.


well, now, show me a perfect ideology. Both nationalism and communism contain good ideas that can be taken to the extreme and it happened. Same thing with capitalism, which is not a bad idea in itself, but look at us now. It's just how it is, people get emotionally entangled in zeitgeist, some clever and unscrupulous people take advantage and things get ugly.



> Then late 20th century, after 1945 we got the European Union which is now crumbling. I actually thought this was a good idea initially but now I see it as another FAIL. Eg. the rise of the far right in Europe (even in the UK, correct me if I'm wrong?).


it's not pretty but it makes sense. After the love affair with the left it's time for the far right to raise its head. It's just history, as much as it is upsetting.



> So what do we have left? Europe as a pretty museum piece, with all that great art, music, philosophy, etc. All these nice things. In reality, there is bad and good everywhere. I just don't like when we beef up the good things and shove the unpleasant things under the carpet. Just leads to a repeat of history, of those bad things that always seem to come back and hit us where it hurts.


I'd say it's obviously not a museum piece, since so many things are happening there now. After the fail of the USSR and, subsequently, the self-bankrupting of the US, a vacuum of power was created and now there's a bunch of countries vying for those prime mover positions. Hard times all around.

that being said, yes, don't forget it's people that make the decisions of how to deal with the less desirable facts. People make controversial decisions, nothing new. It's not pretty but it's what it is. On the one hand, it is a good thing that organizations are forced to air all this, on the other hand imagine living in the kind of big brother environment where everybody is suspicious of everybody else. That's the thing that stopped me from going all "hells, yea, let's comb every organization and find who did what, who belongs to what etc." A bit thought police.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

hayd said:


> The biggest threat in the western nations is the decline of the left wing political parties who have all adopted right wing policies. In essence we are living in one party states (euphemistically referred to as consensus politics). This situation applies as much to AUS, USA & UK as to the mainland European countries.
> 
> You are correct, there is a strong link to music here in the way that music has been used as a way of controlling the mass of the population. To quote your blog 'music is life, life is music'


I just new you had an agenda.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

MacLeod said:


> @Moody
> 
> The 'revealing' that members of organisations we'd prefer to to think of as enlightened were in fact members of another organisation we tend to think of as the complete opposite is not a revelation at all. This is old news. However, there is nothing wrong in revisiting history if it helps colour (grey) in the past in a more complete way than the black and white we can so easily become used to. To that extent, whether this is all news to hayd is irrelevant: it is of potential interest, especially if the VPO has claimed to act with integrity and honesty throughout its history and this research points to a different view.


If the VPO have claimed that I would have to laugh.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Sid,there is no rise of the right wing here, this is the wrong country for it. When it has been tried it has fallen flat---Sir Oswald Mosley!
We are not a museum,have you been here?
I and many others want the demise of the European Union.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

The so-called right wing in the US is a group of disparate elements united only by acceptance of Plutocratic Propaganda. A majority of state/national politicians are connected to the Plutocracy by their wallets.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Oh, come on, give these Furtwangler/Wagner/Strauss/Karajan fans some slack. After all, this is Classical, not death-metal, and these folks don't have that many ways to express their dark side. Just let 'em kick back with a mug of lukewarm lager and get into some WWII-era Furtwangler, whilst musing, "Ahh, yes, German music _*is*_ clearly superior!"
:lol:


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## Wood (Feb 21, 2013)

moody said:


> I and many others want the demise of the European Union.


I just knew you had an agenda.


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

moody said:


> I and many others want the demise of the European Union.


You have my vote Sir, do You need some small monetary contribution as well? I can send you all the useless € coins I have lying around... 

/ptr


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2013)

moody said:


> If the VPO have claimed that I would have to laugh.


'If' is the key word here. I was noting this line in the website article.



> The report follows claims of a cover-up by the world famous orchestra.


No further detail yet. We'll have to wait and see.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

deggial said:


> I think you're being too harsh on the Enlightenment. Many good things developed from their ideas (human rights in general, if I'm not mistaken). But as history has shown time and again, ideas are very different from their implementation. There are too many factors involved when things are put into practice. I also think we can pretty much guarantee now that after every revolution the status quo is more or less replaced. The new regime will not be favourable to those who sacrificed most. At best, some old "customs" will have been replaced and some rights will have been gained. At worst, the country will be in turmoil for decades...


I can't argue with what you're saying there, or in the rest of your post. But what I'm looking at is tangible results. The only tangible outcome of the Enlightenment was the liberation of Greece from Ottoman rule. When Beethoven wrote 'The Ruins of Athens,' that city was in fact in ruins.

To cut to the chase, I expressed my views on this thread here:
http://www.talkclassical.com/23118-unwelcome-anniversary.html

I am glad that the Vienna Philharmonic is making changes, with the Holocaust commemoration concert I mentioned that was done about 10 years ago. Also with finally allowing female musicians into the orchestra in the 1990's although most countries around the world did it decades before that (in some cases, like Australia, we had females in orchestras before 1945). & of course this new culture of more openess and transparency which they are adopting.

However what I've learnt is one can be critical and still take some things from that culture. Eg. The conductor Solti said Austria was the most anti Semitic place on the planet, but it didn't stop him from conducting the very orchestra we're talking of. So one does not have to shove the unpleasant things of a culture under the carpet, and it applies to any culture. It can be discomfiting or confronting but I find it better to face facts that play games with history and distort it.

But as I said I got a very jaundiced view of Europe. Apart from their music and culture, I don't see much positive, but even that I take with a big grain of salt. My roots are from there. Along the Danube River, almost every town and city along its banks has a massacre site or battle site nearby. I am pretty sure tourists going there to visit these places don't know about it on the whole. In cities like Vienna and Budapest one can trace the tragic history of the Holocaust and other horrible events, even though they are not exactly shouting from the rooftops about what happened. In Vienna, most of the old city was bombed to the ground, what you got now is a Disneyland reconstruction done in the 1950's, funded mainly by American money. The opera and singverein where built in the 1950's guys! As for Budapest, there is a square there where hundreds or thousands where gunned down in that terrible winter of 1944. I bet the latte sipping tourists sitting in the expensive cafes on this square don't have a clue that this happened.

And who cares? Well, I do and some people do. But I think most people don't, they go there for the eye and ear candy. Good for them. Ignorance is bliss I suppose.

But I must say that I like the discussion on this thread. Its less polarised than that other thread was. People are not getting too nasty. I thought this would be locked like that one, & I'm glad it isn't. Its important to discuss these things in relation to music, I think.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Sid James said:


> But as I said I got a very jaundiced view of Europe. Apart from their music and culture, I don't see much positive, but even that I take with a big grain of salt.


agreed; European culture was directed by countries with aggressive, expansionist regimes. You'd probably have the same response to cultural products from similarly driven countries from other continents. I also agree that Central and Eastern Europe has a particularly bloody past (maybe because of geography? too many empires within earshot of each other) but I think locals are still quite aware of their past. Tourists... I hear the study of history is not compulsory these days. I hope I'm wrong.

I see what you mean buy "tangible results", but in the light of what's been happening in the world in more recent times, I'd be weary of any regime bringing democracy and freedom to any other nation.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

> ...I see what you mean buy "tangible results", but in the light of what's been happening in the world in more recent times, I'd be weary of any regime bringing democracy and freedom to any other nation.


What I mean is that all revolutions or demands for democracy in the 19th century where failures. That's what I mean by them not having tangible results. The French revolution of 1789 was a bloodbath, followed by the Terror and eventually by a series of dictatorships, Napoleon Bonaparte's being the first. 1848, a revolution that touched many European countries, was also an epic failure. For one thing, it failed to unite Germany, but Bismarck's series of wars did. The 'blood and iron' chancellor, who allegedly said "leave them only their eyes to weep with" after victory over the French in the Franco-Prussian war of 1871, was the guy who bought unity to Germany. Hardly a democrat. I'm not as knowledgeable about the situation in Italy, but it too was unified by war, and both Italy and Germany became monarchies after unification, not republics. They had to maintain feudalism to some degree, to hang on to those old ways of class and privelege, militarism and dictatorship (& anti Semitism, obsession with race and blood, etc). To wipe away that we needed two destructive world wars, and in the East Europe, some sort of democracy only came after 1989.

So the ideals of the French revolution of 'liberty, equality and fraternity' where just a pipe dream, basically. What you got is same old same old with a thin veneer of democracy. Ironic how these magnificent edifices like the parliament in Budapest where built, but it was not real parliament, more like a rubber stamp for what the Austrian emperor said in Vienna. So what I'm critical of is this facadism in the culture of that region, and I think classical music is relevant to this.

Think about it. A lot of the madness that went on in the 20th century could have been prevented if democracy was put in practice, if the demands of the people where met by the elites. In the revolutions of the 19th century, all classes, from working class to intellectuals, united for a common cause. But with the ancien regime maintaining its grip on power, what they sought to do was divide and conquer, pit one class (or ethnic group, or religion etc) against the other. & of course find scapegoats to divert attention (like a smokescreen to reality). So what you got was certain deals made, one of them being Bismarck introducing some policies of the Socialists (he was the first to bring in aged pensions) and the Habsburgs of Austria made Hungarians their second hand man in oppressing other 'lesser' nations of the empire (eg. Croats, Serbs, etc) a bit like the British Raj in India. So it was patch up jobs like this, band aid solutions that happened. Not real reform, but reform meant to underpin the ancien regime. & of course when you get this, you get stagnation, and resentment from the oppressed and no prizes for guessing how these are linked to certain big events in Europe in the 20th century.

Sorry for the history lesson but my impression is that at least some people here don't know these things. Or maybe worse, they know them but they don't admit they happened. But probably people just don't care, as I said.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

I get what you're saying but basically what I'm asking you boils down to:

1. if Germany and Italy could each be united through war only, doesn't that imply union wasn't a good idea in the first place? Look at what happened to Serbia &all. People bicker, they dislike each other for petty reasons. That's the story of Europe from day one.

2. did you really expect people from all walks of life to cooperate democratically and implement the lofty changes? People are petty. The kind of people who fight tooth and nail for power are the people who want power for themselves, they aren't interested in idealistic reforms.

what I'm trying to get at is I don't believe in revolutions. Idealists are on their own, the rest are looking out for number one. Of course, the world wouldn't budge without idealists.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

deggial said:


> I get what you're saying but basically what I'm asking you boils down to:
> 
> 1. if Germany and Italy could each be united through war only, doesn't that imply union wasn't a good idea in the first place? Look at what happened to Serbia &all. People bicker, they dislike each other for petty reasons. That's the story of Europe from day one.


Yes and I see it as the downfall of European history overall. All these ideologies, one replacing the other, and none working for too long. Its like putting your eggs in one basket and when that fails, do it again with another ideology, or another colour of egg.

So thats my view on the EU, the 'United States of Europe' idea can't work like the USA or say Australia (see below). I'm not saying the American model is perfect, nor Australia, I'm saying this latest ideology has again failed like the others before it. & again I see it as symptomatic of European history.



deggial said:


> ...
> what I'm trying to get at is I don't believe in revolutions. Idealists are on their own, the rest are looking out for number one. Of course, the world wouldn't budge without idealists.


I don't believe in revolutions, or violence either. Not as a rule however what they tell me is that change is overdue. Revolutions wouldn't happen if those at the top had listened to the rumblings of discontent in the first place. I mean Australia was not formed as a nation by a revolution or civil war but by an Act of British Parliament. Of course, there was intense lobbying by Australian politicians in London to be able to make this happen. Australia became a Federation within the British Commonwealth in 1901.

But what you're taling of is the clash between realpolitik and idealism. Maybe between how things are and how they should be. & thats a huge topic in itself.

In any case, I am rehashing old ground here, the thread I did below covered similar things to what we're talking about now:

http://www.talkclassical.com/22784-classical-music-its-so.html

Its sad but education or cultivation makes no difference to you or I as a human. You can be a genocidal maniac whatever your taste. Thats the point I was basically trying to make with that thread and not everyone was happy about it. But that's life.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

hayd said:


> I just knew you had an agenda.


Yea all this idealism stuff I just don't know but I'm keeping with my own agenda - More witches in Oz land..........


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## Wood (Feb 21, 2013)

Sid James said:


> <snips>
> 
> First we got the Enlightenment which was a clear FAIL.
> 
> ...


Sid

You see the old world as a FAIL.

By comparison, do you see the New World as a PASS?


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

hayd said:


> Sid
> 
> You see the old world as a FAIL.
> 
> By comparison, do you see the New World as a PASS?


I won't talk about America, but yes I see Australia as a 'pass' of sorts. The problem is though that our own political elites have this obsession, especially in recent decades, of rehashing whats going on in Europe and USA. Bringing things from there that don't work. Eg. the high debts and economic rationalism. I am worried about how now our political elites are quite distanced from the population compared to a generation or two ago, even of 100 years ago. Among our first prime ministers early in the 20th century was Andrew Fisher, who started off as a miner. Now we got a situation of a journalist asking politicians whats the price of a loaf of bread and they have no clue. Something wrong has happened over the past 100 years. I think we're going backwards honestly. I hope we don't deteriorate to the level of Europe or as it appears, America, which is also riddled with debt and has had a not so stellar record of economic management and more than a mistake or two in regulation of financial markets.

But basically Europes century was the 19th century. America's century was the 20th century. The 21st century belongs to Asia Pacific region. Its not perfect but there are promising signs in the region. I just hope we don't end up rehashing tired old ideologies that have failed overseas time and time again. We can do it, and we can do it bloody well. But I dunno what to do with these out of touch elites, most Aussies are very wary of politicians, moreso I think than in other countries.


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## Rapide (Oct 11, 2011)

Sid James said:


> I won't talk about America, but yes I see Australia as a 'pass' of sorts. The problem is though that our own political elites have this obsession, especially in recent decades, of rehashing whats going on in Europe and USA. Bringing things from there that don't work. Eg. the high debts and economic rationalism. I am worried about how now our political elites are quite distanced from the population compared to a generation or two ago, even of 100 years ago. Among our first prime ministers early in the 20th century was Andrew Fisher, who started off as a miner. Now we got a situation of a journalist asking politicians whats the price of a loaf of bread and they have no clue. Something wrong has happened over the past 100 years. I think we're going backwards honestly. I hope we don't deteriorate to the level of Europe or as it appears, America, which is also riddled with debt and has had a not so stellar record of economic management and more than a mistake or two in regulation of financial markets.
> 
> But basically Europes century was the 19th century. America's century was the 20th century. The 21st century belongs to Asia Pacific region. Its not perfect but there are promising signs in the region. I just hope we don't end up rehashing tired old ideologies that have failed overseas time and time again. We can do it, and we can do it bloody well. But I dunno what to do with these out of touch elites, most Aussies are very wary of politicians, moreso I think than in other countries.


To be fair, and to certainly not white-wash history, Australia is not exactly a "pass", is it? Australia has the so-called "stolen generation" (children of Australian aboriginals removed from their parents under Australian law to "assemilate" with the Anglo-Saxon population during 1900 to the late 1960's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations ), which I think was deeply appalling. Similarly, the Australian aboriginals living today are in appalling living standards due to the neglect / failure of the Australian government and welfare, I think, resulting in appalling living conditions of its original inhabitants. I would hardly call this a "pass" while pointing the finger at Europe and America as "failures". Perspective is indeed an interesting thing.


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## Wood (Feb 21, 2013)

Sid James said:


> snipssssssssssssss


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

hayd said:


> Sid James said:
> 
> 
> > snipssssssssssssss
> ...


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## Wood (Feb 21, 2013)

Sid James said:


> hayd said:
> 
> 
> > Dunno what you mean. I put what I thought on the table. Answered your quesiton. Anyway I took this thread way off topic. All it became is a vehicle for my utter hatred of Europe. But at least its based on some shred of historical fact as I have tried to demonstrate. Anyway thats it for me on this thread.
> ...


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## Wood (Feb 21, 2013)

> Orchestra Chairman Clemens Hellberg had initially been accused of failing to include details of the Philharmonic's Nazi links in his 1992 book Democracy of Kings, which is widely regarded as the orchestra's official history.
> 
> He has since said he did not have access to all the relevant documents when he wrote the book.


I find this bit strange. Surely the Chairman of the VPO would have access to these documents? If not, why not?


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Rapide said:


> To be fair, and to certainly not white-wash history, Australia is not exactly a "pass", is it? Australia has the so-called "stolen generation" (children of Australian aboriginals removed from their parents under Australian law to "assemilate" with the Anglo-Saxon population during 1900 to the late 1960's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations ), which I think was deeply appalling. Similarly, the Australian aboriginals living today are in appalling living standards due to the neglect / failure of the Australian government and welfare, I think, resulting in appalling living conditions of its original inhabitants. I would hardly call this a "pass" while pointing the finger at Europe and America as "failures". Perspective is indeed an interesting thing.


It was not Australia's finest moment, I agree.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Sid James said:


> hayd said:
> 
> 
> > Dunno what you mean. I put what I thought on the table. Answered your quesiton. Anyway I took this thread way off topic. All it became is a vehicle for my utter hatred of Europe. But at least its based on some shred of historical fact as I have tried to demonstrate. Anyway thats it for me on this thread.
> ...


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

hayd said:


> Please ignore that post. I self censored after posting a link. It may have been inflammatory.
> 
> I'd like to see you respond to Rapide's post though Sid. It may be seen as disrespectful to Europeans if you don't.


Well thats fine. I am sorry but for various reasons I am incommunicado with Rapide.



moody said:


> thanks Sid and i thought you were my friend.


I went overboard. I got too emotional, and I do get like that regarding this issue. Not entirely rational and contradictory but by Europe I don't mean the UK, if thats of any comfort to you. Ultimately what I say means nothing, but I see no harm in some scepticism regarding the history of classical music, its not all rosy as I think is obvious. But I did overkill on this here as I said.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Sid James said:


> Well thats fine. I am sorry but for various reasons I am incommunicado with Rapide.
> 
> I went overboard. I got too emotional, and I do get like that regarding this issue. Not entirely rational and contradictory but by Europe I don't mean the UK, if thats of any comfort to you. Ultimately what I say means nothing, but I see no harm in some scepticism regarding the history of classical music, its not all rosy as I think is obvious. But I did overkill on this here as I said.


Well that's alright then---of course you are right about all the rest.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Most of the "history" is up on the VPO website now, still in German (though your browser may translate it).

http://www.wienerphilharmoniker.at/index.php?set_language=en&cccpage=history_ns


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## Wood (Feb 21, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Most of the "history" is up on the VPO website now, still in German (though your browser may translate it).
> 
> http://www.wienerphilharmoniker.at/index.php?set_language=en&cccpage=history_ns


Looks like the translator is on holiday this week.


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## Wood (Feb 21, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Most of the "history" is up on the VPO website now, still in German (though your browser may translate it).
> 
> http://www.wienerphilharmoniker.at/index.php?set_language=en&cccpage=history_ns


Looks like the translator is on holiday this week.


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