# How to explore Bach?



## John Galt (Feb 3, 2015)

I'm ready to explore another composer, and this time my choice is Bach. Instead of doing the usual (starting from top and going down the list, listening to every single track), I would like some suggestions on where to start. Which pieces are considered to be the best? Which ones are not worth listening to?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Johann_Sebastian_Bach


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## John Galt (Feb 3, 2015)

I guess it's safe to skip all the organ music? I don't like church music


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Better skip all those cantatas too! But not all of the organ music is churchy.


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## Heliogabo (Dec 29, 2014)

That depends on your personal choices. Personally, I prefer his "absolute music" works: Goldberg variations, art of the fugue, well tempered klavier (books I & II), you can choice to listen to this on a harpsichord or a piano. I prefer the piano sound, but sometimes I'm curious to hear the original instruments. Very important pieces are the Brandenburg concertos, musical offering, harpsichord concertos, the great mass. But finally, everything that Bach wrote is worth to listen, im my humble opinion.


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## John Galt (Feb 3, 2015)

starthrower said:


> Better skip all those cantatas too! But not all of the organ music is churchy.


Yeah, I'll skip all the cantatas. How about the solo keyboard compositions?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_solo_keyboard_compositions_by_Johann_Sebastian_Bach


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## Kevin Pearson (Aug 14, 2009)

Well, I have yet to meet anyone who didn't like most or all of the Brandenburg Concertos. I would start with those.

Kevin


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Don't worry about "very important" pieces. Listen to what you like. I love the opening to The Well Tempered Clavier, but I'm not gonna sit through four hours of that stuff.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Kevin Pearson said:


> Well, I have yet to meet anyone who didn't like most or all of the Brandenburg Concertos. I would start with those.
> 
> Kevin


You just met me! I like the slow movement to No. 1.


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## Andolink (Oct 29, 2012)

The violin(s) concertos are essential as are the 6 sonatas for violin and harpsichord. The two books of the Well Tempered Clavier and the English Suites, French Suites and Partitas are all essential solo keyboard works.


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## John Galt (Feb 3, 2015)

Andolink said:


> The violin(s) concertos are essential as are the 6 sonatas for violin and harpsichord. The two books of the Well Tempered Clavier and the English Suites, French Suites and Partitas are all essential solo keyboard works.


Startet listening to these English and French suites. Not something that I instantly fell in love with.


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

I don't know about you but I fell in love with the double violin concerto immediately when I heard it long ago. Though it was the fast outer movements and not the slow movement which is supposed to be the most awesome. I had difficulties appreciating anything slow back then.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

John Galt said:


> Startet listening to these English and French suites. Not something that I instantly fell in love with.


Instantly falling in love is overrated. Sometimes you have to work up to it.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

starthrower said:


> Don't worry about "very important" pieces. Listen to what you like. I love the opening to The Well Tempered Clavier, but I'm not gonna sit through four hours of that stuff.


There's no need to listen to it all in one sitting. In fact, there's absolutely no reason to believe that Bach intended it to be taken in in any other way than piecemeal.

But since you always stop near the beginning, have you never heard the wonderful B minor prelude and fugue from Book 1?


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## John Galt (Feb 3, 2015)

starthrower said:


> Instantly falling in love is overrated. Sometimes you have to work up to it.


True, so let me rephrase myself: There was no instant interest at all. Better move on, maybe Brandenburg next.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Orchestral Suites ftw.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

I second the concerto for two violins, great piece.

Also the sonatas and partitas for solo violin. The Partita no. 3 in E major in particular may fit with your "sense of life" or whatever:


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## Guest (Feb 8, 2015)

John Galt said:


> I guess it's safe to skip all the organ music? I don't like church music


On the contrary, not all organ music is church music, and ruling out a whole chunk of his music where he so magnificently excelled makes your exploration of this great composer seem insincere. Try his great Passacaglia and Fugue. Just because many organs are found in churches does not make all organ music religious.

And while not all of his music is religious in nature, you are going to miss some of his best works, indeed, some of the greatest works of classical music. His Mass in B minor. His St. Matthew Passion. His cantatas and motets.


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## John Galt (Feb 3, 2015)

Mahlerian said:


> There's no need to listen to it all in one sitting. In fact, there's absolutely no reason to believe that Bach intended it to be taken in in any other way than piecemeal.


I sometimes wonder how these composers managed to create so much music in one short life. Hours upon hours, days upon days of continual listening... No musicians that I know of can do that nowadays.


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

starthrower said:


> Instantly falling in love is overrated. Sometimes you have to work up to it.


The cool thing about Bach though is that lot of his music manages to be both relatively complex and instantly appealing at the same time.


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## John Galt (Feb 3, 2015)

DrMike said:


> Try his great Passacaglia and Fugue.


Listened to Passacaglia now. I just don't like the sound of the organ. Moreover, it was rather dark and malevolent.


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

Even if you do not like "church music", you cannot miss the Mass in B minor

Alternatevely the Goldberg Variations. No "church music" here.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I will give that a listen, Mahlerian. Thanks! For Bach beginners, Erato released a CD called Bach In Leipzig, which is a nice compilation of organ, choral, and other music. I'm not sure if it can be found anywhere, but I got it from the library.


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## John Galt (Feb 3, 2015)

Now I found the first Bach thing that I liked! BWV 832, Suite in A major, Allemande.


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

Concerto for Violin and Oboe BWV 1060 is pretty cool as well. Actually, I like pretty much all Bach's concertos except the famous and acclaimed Brandenburg concertos for some reason.

*My Opinions Are Very Important*


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## Funny (Nov 30, 2013)

Prelude & Fugue #10 from WTC I. The prelude has a relentless bass figure that prefigures Peter Gunn. The fugue is the only 2-voice one, and scampers breathlessly after itself playing simple but effective rhythmic games.


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## Kivimees (Feb 16, 2013)

"How to explore Bach?"

With an open mind.




Good luck.


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## OldFashionedGirl (Jul 21, 2013)

Malevolent is this guy favorite word.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

John Galt said:


> Now I found the first Bach thing that I liked! BWV 832, Suite in A major, Allemande.


Check your premises though: Ask yourself: "Would _Rand_ approve?"

'WWAS': "What Would _Ayn _Say?"

Your epistemological coherence hangs in the balance.

_;D_


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## John Galt (Feb 3, 2015)

*Prelude and Fugue in C, BWV 846! *Very nice!


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## Guest (Feb 8, 2015)

John Galt said:


> Listened to Passacaglia now. I just don't like the sound of the organ. Moreover, it was rather dark and malevolent.


I am not quite sure what you are registering as "dark and malevolent." Is it merely any piece written in a minor key?

Instant gratification is not the way to approach classical music. Some may instantly draw you in, but so much more offers great rewards for perseverance.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

OldFashionedGirl said:


> Malevolent is this guy favorite word.


Perhaps one should fixate on 'beauty' and not malevolence.

It does _wonders_ for how I feel.


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## echmain (Jan 18, 2013)

I already told you, DON'T listen to Bach.

All his music is extremely malevolent. If you listen to the violin sonatas and partitas you'll likely climb a clock tower and go on a shooting rampage.

You should listen to his cousin P.D.Q. Bach instead. Much, much better composer.


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## Skilmarilion (Apr 6, 2013)

It seems like the OP is fairly keen to 'skip' music out. 

If you never listen, you'll never know ...


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## John Galt (Feb 3, 2015)

isorhythm said:


> I second the concerto for two violins, great piece.
> 
> Also the sonatas and partitas for solo violin. The Partita no. 3 in E major in particular may fit with your "sense of life" or whatever:


I'm not a violin guy, but yes, this was in sync with my sense of life!


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## Skilmarilion (Apr 6, 2013)




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## John Galt (Feb 3, 2015)

echmain said:


> I already told you, DON'T listen to Bach.
> 
> All his music is extremely malevolent. If you listen to the violin sonatas and partitas you'll likely climb a clock tower and go on a shooting rampage.
> 
> You should listen to his cousin P.D.Q. Bach instead. Much, much better composer.


Never heard of him  Irony?


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## John Galt (Feb 3, 2015)

Skilmarilion said:


>


Beautiful!


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## OldFashionedGirl (Jul 21, 2013)

You should listen to Stravinsky next, John Galt.


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## John Galt (Feb 3, 2015)

OldFashionedGirl said:


> You should listen to Stravinsky next, John Galt.


Yup, I'll give it a try! Why do you think I'll like him? Some guy said romanticism is up my alley, since I liked Chopin.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Stravinsky is not romantic, but everyone should listen to his famous ballet scores. And the Symphonies Of Wind Instruments is great as well.

For romantic piano, Schumann and Grieg are great to listen to. Try Grieg's Lyric Pieces.


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## OldFashionedGirl (Jul 21, 2013)

Yes, you should, John Galt! Stravinsky is all bright and shiny.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

echmain said:


> I already told you, DON'T listen to Bach.
> 
> All his music is extremely malevolent. If you listen to the violin sonatas and partitas you'll likely climb a clock tower and go on a shooting rampage.
> 
> You should listen to his cousin P.D.Q. Bach instead. Much, much better composer.


P.D.Q. Bach's a hard *** to row with me. When things become too leaden and Teutonic I go 'Anna Russell.'






I think: 'WWAS'- "What Would _Anna _Say?"


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

I could see this guy really liking Petrouchka actually.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

I would suggest dropping the one composer at a time approach. How many of us TC veterans did that? "Next I am going to try Stravinsky." I certainly didn't do that. 

Also, it's hard not to get he impression you are rushing through this too fast. How many times are you giving each piece a listen? And what are your listening habits? Are you multi-tasking?


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

The one Bach piece I am familiar with is this fantastic organ work. I think you will like it:


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## John Galt (Feb 3, 2015)

GreenMamba said:


> How many times are you giving each piece a listen? And what are your listening habits? Are you multi-tasking?


Usually just one. There is so much to listen to out there, and my time is limited. Life is too short to give a piece multiple listenings when there's no instant interest. There's so much good music to be discovered.

I'm not multi-tasking. Should I be?


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## John Galt (Feb 3, 2015)

Florestan said:


> The one Bach piece I am familiar with is this fantastic organ work. I think you will like it:


Hell, no!  Most malevolent piece so far.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Florestan said:


> The one Bach piece I am familiar with is this fantastic organ work. I think you will like it:


I've always loved that part of the_ Tocatta _at around 02:42+.

Isn't the the most gorgeous thing ever, Aida. . . 'Divina'. . . 'Florestan,' I mean.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

John Galt said:


> Usually just one. There is so much to listen to out there, and my time is limited. Life is too short to give a piece multiple listenings when there's no instant interest. There's so much good music to be discovered.
> 
> I'm not multi-tasking. Should I be?


Infinitely and endlessly.

Beauty never sleeps.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

No, don't multi task. My concern was you may have been doing 2-3 other things while listening, and thus missed the music.

There are a lot of works I wasn't crazy about the first time, but liked on follow ups. So that's something to keep in mind.

I have no idea how much time a day you have to listen. It sounds like a lot, which is fine. Personally, I would suggest exposing yourself to more composers, even if it means fewer works from each right now. Think of it as a concert, where several composers are often in the same bill.


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## John Galt (Feb 3, 2015)

Men are not meant to multi-task, they say.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

John Galt said:


> Hell, no!  Most malevolent piece so far.


That's what's great about it! Bach with balls!


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## John Galt (Feb 3, 2015)

GreenMamba said:


> I have no idea how much time a day you have to listen.


Some days 16 hours. Other days 0. Maybe 15 hours a week on average.


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## John Galt (Feb 3, 2015)

Marschallin Blair said:


> 'WWAS': "What Would _Ayn _Say?"
> 
> [/I]


I usually ask "What would Howard Roark do?" it's a good way to retain the philosophy


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

John Galt said:


> Life is too short to give a piece multiple listenings when there's no instant interest.


Well, that's a big mistake, imo. Many of my favorite works I didn't like/understand at all on first listening.


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## Jos (Oct 14, 2013)

You have a very peculiar way of exploring classical music, John. 
I doubt if this approach will make your life much richer.
Don't multitask, just listen to the stuff you do like and expand from there.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

John Galt said:


> I usually ask "What would Howard Roark do?" it's a good way to retain the philosophy


Oh, I was being cascadingly sarcastic.

I don't consult Ayn Rand on most everything, though I certainly think she can be a first-rate analytical mind at times.


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## John Galt (Feb 3, 2015)

Jos said:


> You have a very peculiar way of exploring classical music, John.
> I doubt if this approach will make your life much richer.
> Don't multitask, just listen to the stuff you do like and expand from there.


I like your standard of value (make life richer)


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

John Galt said:


> Men are not meant to multi-task, they say.


Yeah, they're pretty useless; except for the ones whom I adore and think are pretty.


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## Giordano (Aug 10, 2014)

Notebook for Anna Magdalena Bach


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## John Galt (Feb 3, 2015)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Yeah, they're pretty useless; except for the ones whom I adore and think are pretty.


Ayn Rand had a very different view. She worshipped men. So she was once asked, if she could have a second life, would she prefer to be born a man instead. She said: "No. Because then I'd have to love a woman."


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

John Galt said:


> Ayn Rand had a very different view. She worshipped men. So she was once asked, if she could have a second life, would she prefer to be born a man instead. She said: "No. Because then I'd have to love a woman."


Well, I'm with her on that- because most women aren't <caesura> 'Divas.'

_;D_


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

John Galt said:


> I'm ready to explore another composer, and this time my choice is Bach. Instead of doing the usual (starting from top and going down the list, listening to every single track), I would like some suggestions on where to start. Which pieces are considered to be the best? Which ones are not worth listening to?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Johann_Sebastian_Bach


I fancy myself as a Bach authority.   Explore as follows,

(1) All six Brandenburg Concertos
(2) All four Orchestral Suites
(3) All three violin concertos
(4) Christmas Oratorio
(5) Saint Matthew Passion or the Saint John Passion
(6) The Well Tempered Clavier (solo keyboard pieces)

I would also recommend period instrument performances rather than modern instruments. That's my preference. But as far as pieces of works go, just follow the above and you would have done yourself a good favor. Trust me.


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## John Galt (Feb 3, 2015)

Violin Concerto in A minor, BWV 1041 is pretty good (only Allegro). But why don't the composers give their compositions proper names? They're all so technical and impossible to remember.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

John Galt said:


> Violin Concerto in A minor, BWV 1041 is pretty good. But why don't the composers give their compositions proper names? They're all so technical and impossible to remember.


I can agree that there are just so many pieces and you might find each difficult to explore. But take your time, and most important of all, just enjoy the recommended pieces as you go along. You will eventually remember which piece is which. Remember, the pieces I recommended are standard repertoire that concerts, record companies and students play all the time. They are established pieces that old favorites, so with time you will remember which is which.


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## John Galt (Feb 3, 2015)

*Violin Concerto in E major, BWV 1042, 3rd movement*

This one was even better!


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## John Galt (Feb 3, 2015)

*BWV 1046 - Brandenburg Concerto No. 1 in F major*

Great 1st and 3rd movement!

*Brandenburg 2* was bad.

*Brandenburg 3* - great 1st movement

*Brandenburg 4 *- great 1st movement

*Brandenburg 5 *- great 1st movement

*Brandenburg 6* was bad.

Wonder why he always puts the best movement first.

Moving on to the keyboard concertos...


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Once you've got a bit of the "Bach Sound" in your ears, try these:

Stravinsky / Bach ~ Von Himmel Hoch variations.





Lukas Foss ~ Symphony No. 2, a Symphony of Chorales





More tangential, but nonetheless...
Stravinsky ~ Dumbarton Oaks Concerto in Eb (modeled after the Bach Brandenburg concerti)




Prokofiev ~ Piano concerto No. 4, 1st movement


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

John Galt said:


> I usually ask "What would Howard Roark do?" it's a good way to retain the philosophy


That's unlikely to help you with music or women.


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## John Galt (Feb 3, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> That's unlikely to help you with music or women.


I know. But it's very helpful in other aspects of life.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I'd hardly listened to Bach until I met my wife. I bought her the old Richter recording of the St Matthew for her birthday early in our marriage as she'd once sung in it at the Festival Hall. When we put it on and the orchestra started the intro to "Come ye daughters" I thought, "Oh boy! This is wonderful!"


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

John Galt said:


> I'm ready to explore another composer, and this time my choice is Bach. Instead of doing the usual (starting from top and going down the list, listening to every single track), I would like some suggestions on where to start. Which pieces are considered to be the best? Which ones are not worth listening to?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Johann_Sebastian_Bach


 I suspect that your posts are not elicited to engender serious discussion, but i will give a serious answer: Try the Switched On Bach recordings, by Walter/Wendy Carlos. They were my principal introduction to the music of JSB and every time I hear an excerpt they bring a smile to my face.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

For a truly spiritual experience, try any of the sarabande movements from any of the six keyboard partitas, preferably on harpsichord.

Also check out the Prelude and Fugue in C Major from Well-Tempered Clavier Book One, also preferably on harpsichord.


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## John Galt (Feb 3, 2015)

Bach's *Air* is so sad. It's ******* brilliant, but so sad. I don't like to listen to it.


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## John Galt (Feb 3, 2015)

ArtMusic said:


> I fancy myself as a Bach authority.   Explore as follows,
> 
> (1) All six Brandenburg Concertos
> (2) All four Orchestral Suites
> ...


Done with these now. Guess I'll leave Bach and move on with another composer. A romantic one with emotion and a happy sense of life. Suggestions?


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

John Galt said:


> Done with these noe. Guess I'll leave Bach and move on with another composer. A romantic one with emotion and a happy sense of life. Suggestions?


Beethoven.

:angel:

(Though of course 'Romantic' in_ temperament _if not in _formal _musical expressivity.)


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## echmain (Jan 18, 2013)

Here's the perfect piece of music for you. It's actually a reworked Haydn symphony. And only a small amount of malevolence.


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## echmain (Jan 18, 2013)

John Galt said:


> *Brandenburg 2* was bad.


Uh oh. We Earthlings could be in big trouble. The second Brandenburg is the *first* track on the Music From Earth record sent up with the Voyager spacecraft.

If the aliens hear all that malevolence, we're doomed. Clearly music meant to incite war.

The attack ships could be on their way right now! Time to get my towel ready.


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## John Galt (Feb 3, 2015)

echmain said:


> Uh oh. We Earthlings could be in big trouble. *The second Brandenburg is the *first* track on the Music From Earth record sent up with the Voyager spacecraft.*
> 
> If the aliens hear all that malevolence, we're doomed. Clearly music meant to incite war.
> 
> The attack ships could be on their way right now! Time to get my towel ready.


Really? Haha 

But actually, it's not malevolent. It's just not very good compared to the other Brandenburg concertos.


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

John Galt said:


> If you're gonna conform blindly to a set of ideas, it's better to conform to true ideas than to false ones. That being said, you can't really be an Objectivist if you don't understand the ideas. To be objective requires reason, not faith.


A rescript then: does the minor mode make for sad music? If so, at what point [frequency ratio] between a major third and a minor third are the two distinguished, objectively? I've struggled with this question since it was first posed to me some 15 years ago. Perhaps I haven't sufficiently subscribed to true philosophy to establish the objective answer?


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## John Galt (Feb 3, 2015)

So, which composer next?


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

John Galt said:


> Done with these now. Guess I'll leave Bach and move on with another composer. A romantic one with emotion and a happy sense of life. Suggestions?


I love this idea
Speed dating with classical composers greatest works.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

John Galt said:


> So, which composer next?


Leonard wants you to think for yourself; and Alyssa and I agree. _;D_

- and who made _you _the Arbiter of Taste anyway, Petronius?- that's my job.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

John Galt said:


> So, which composer next?


No single composer. Pick a type of work - say, piano concerto - and listen to different ones from across the spectrum. And don't just go to Wikipedia to see what the most "famous" ones are.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

John Galt said:


> So, which composer next?


Try Wagner. Seriously. If you don't like operatic singing in German, just try the preludes: "Tristan und Isolde", "Parsifal", "Lohengrin", "Tannhäuser" etc. and of course "Ride of the Valkyries" if you've never heard it before (NOT that Vietnam movie scene!). I am really interested in your opinion on him, and who knows, maybe you will like him after all.


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## John Galt (Feb 3, 2015)

Haydn man said:


> I love this idea
> Speed dating with classical composers greatest works.


I'll settle down some day. Just need to get a superficial overview first


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

John Galt said:


> I'll settle down some day. Just need to get a superficial overview first


Biting my tongue... ...........................


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## Guest (Feb 8, 2015)

Pick a composer regarding whom Rand never had an opinion, and explore their music. Then you can form an opinion independent of hers. Dare to branch out on your own. I would be surprised if there were very many people on here that haven't changed their opinions in very significant ways the longer they are exposed to the breadth of classical music. I, myself, originally did not think much of Schoenberg, but lately have been listening to, and even somewhat enjoying, some of his earlier works. Originally I couldn't stand most opera, but now I even appreciate some of Wagner's operas (which I used to frequently deride). Choral works held no interest for me initially - now they are among my absolute favorite works. I shudder to think how pitifully short the list of classical music that I enjoy would be had I dismissed music after only a single listen. I absolutely love Bach's Goldberg Variations and have numerous recordings, and listen to it at least once a week. The first time I heard them, I wrote them off.


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## John Galt (Feb 3, 2015)

GreenMamba said:


> And don't just go to Wikipedia to see what the most "famous" ones are.


These are not all all famous?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_classical_music_composers_by_era


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Topic closed for persistent political asides and off-topic ad hom posts.


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