# Favourite oratorio



## Lisztfreak

I know not many of us here have actually heard more than 10 or so oratorios in their life, but do show us at least three of your favourites. Mine are:

1. 'Christus' (Liszt) 
2. 'Messiah' (Händel)
3. 'The Dream of Gerontius' (Elgar)
4. 'The Matthew Passion' (Bach)
4. 'Judas the Macabee' (Händel)


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## captaintim

One can never forget the Messiah, but surely the Christmas Oratorio has to ranked even higher. I've never been able to get into Gerontius, perhaps I need to play it, but I think this is partly due to the fact that I heard a hideous orchestra perform this piece when I was about 10 and it left a bad taste!


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## Lisztfreak

I guess the history repeats itself... I've read somewhere that the very premiere of Gerontius was performed by a lousy, unprepared orchestra and choir.

Ever heard the Saint-Saëns 'Christmas Oratorio'? It's beautiful - pastoral and intimate, almost chamber music (in greatest part).


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## captaintim

Never heard of it but might check it out, although I can't say I'm head over heels for Saint-Seans. That said, I think The Swan is absolutely stunning. Its only popular because people know the tune, not that they appreciate how good a piece it is (I don't know the whole carnival, so can't comment on the rest). The harmony is absolutely wonderful - listen carefully next time you hear it and you'll see what I mean.

Have you heard the Creation (Haydn?) Check it out, that's an oratorio


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## Amy

Well, as my email address is [email protected] I'm sure you can all figure out what my number one oratorio is! I also love Judas Macabee, L'Orfeo and Haydn's Creation, which is absolutely glorious. Haydn did what Weelkes tended to do, and almost onomatopaeised the music with the words. Because of this I find it even better in English!


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## Lisztfreak

I'll really try to get a disk with The Creation. What I read elsewhere and what you said about it does intrigue me...

Just listened to The Swan again. I see what you mean, captaintim. It's indeed more than just a beautiful tune - and the cello was a perfect choice for it.


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## 4/4player

Handel's Messiah....I think its the greatest oratorio work ever created...
Especially the Halleluah chorus...the history of how it was finished and performed surpasses others...it was performed for the benefit of sick people, one famous classical music composer said this after listening to the Hallelujah chorus, "He is the master of us all." just thoughts from an aspiring conductor...
4/4player


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## Edward Elgar

Messiah is the best I think, as it appeals not only to musical folk, but also the common people! On my first performance of the Messiah as part of the bass section, I overheard two elderly women talking at the end. One said to the other - "Well, Christmas has started. We've heard the Messiah!"


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## cato

This is going to sound like a stupid question, but I'll risk it in order to get an answer.  

What.... excatly.... is an oratorio? I mean, what is it's proper defintion?

How does an oratorio differ from say..... Bach's Mass in B Minor?

Does an oratorio always have some element of "faith" or "praise" to God?

Just wondering.... please be gentle.


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## Giovannimusica

Well,

As one who will *bend the rules* as to what constitutes an Oratorio, I will say that the greatest of these is Bach's B-minor Mass. I can listen to it every day and never grow tired of it - every listening session leaves me feeling refreshed like I have just stepped out of a waterfall in the tropics after a hot and sweaty hike.    

Regards!

Giovanni


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## ChamberNut

Giovannimusica said:


> Well,
> 
> As one who will *bend the rules* as to what constitutes an Oratorio, I will say that the greatest of these is Bach's B-minor Mass. I can listen to it every day and never grow tired of it - every listening session leaves me feeling refreshed like I have just stepped out of a waterfall in the tropics after a hot and sweaty hike.
> 
> Regards!
> 
> Giovanni


Giovannimusica,

I was fortunate to hear and see a live performance of Bach's Mass in B minor this past Saturday by Winnipeg Symphony Orchestra. It was my first time hearing the Mass in it's entirety and it was incredible! Such beautiful, wonderful music and singing. A bit long, but well worth it!


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## Lisztfreak

Oratorios do differ from masses, and as far as I know, they don't necessarily have to be of religious thematic.

While masses and requiems are fixed in movements or parts (a mass: Kyrie - Gloria - Credo - Sanctus - Benedictus - Agnus Dei), oratorios are quite free concerning that.

Oratorios also have some big story in the background, unlike masses. In this way, they're somewhat alike to operas - but without the flash and virtuosity, and naturally, there's no scene nor acting.


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## cato

Thanks for the info Lisztfreak.  

It was a little confusing.  

And Givannimusica, what a great way of phraising your feelings about Bach's Mass In B Minor!  

You captured excatly how it makes me feel.... refreshed... like a waterfall.  

Yes, I listen to it just about every other day. What a great work of art!


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## Giovannimusica

Hi Cato,

You're welcome, dear sir. Then there is Brahms *Ein Deutsches Requiem* - an excellent piece and on par with Bach imho. I don't listen to it everyday but that does not mean that I consider it any less than Bach. Ya know, I have a quite lopsided collection of CD's. It's based upon my favorite composers but there are a few *stragglers* in it too. 

By *straggler* I mean music by a certain composer who I otherwise don't consider very great but the recorded work is quite interesting. A music collection is built up over time. Of course, there are people with more money than brains, those who will buy every CD of all composers from Jakob Handl to Morten Lauridsen and then some and probably have an *intravenous feed-tube* of those recordings that the major classical music magazines have reviewed.

Ok, I hope they're happy but they'll most likely never get to hear all that what they have purchased. Personally, I just have a few composers but because they each represent a certain period and style, I can then appreciate other composers and their works. Yes, there are many composers whose works I'll never hear or perform. But those who I do perform or hear I shall let them be a part of me. 

So, get cracking on the performing repertoire and the listening repertoire because it's gonna be with ya in Eternity. That which you have let become a part of your heart, soul, mind, body and spirit - yes, all that will be with you in Eternity. Be of good cheer, do good works and Love while you still can Love.


Regards!

Giovanni


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## cato

It's funny you listed Brahms Requiem, because I had not heard it untill a few weeks ago, and I'm planing on buying it this week. The only "problem", if you can call it that, is that I'm going to spend a few hours in the CD section of Barnes & Noble, scaning about 15 different versions of this work under their laser scaner, and seeing which version I like best.  

I noticed that there were even "peroid" versions of this work.

Which do you like best? Period, or modern versions?

Which CD of this work do you have?

When I heard it for the first time a few weeks ago, I have to agree, it is a wonderful work on par with Bach's Mass in B minor.


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## Giovannimusica

Hi Cato,

My only and current recording of Brahms *Requiem* is conducted by Phillippe Herreweghe. He does some wonderful interpretations of Bach but I'm a little disappointed in his Brahms. I used to have a von Karajan conducting the Berlin Phil version of the Requiem but it has gone missing.

To be honest, I don't know that much about *Period* versions of Brahms. For Brahms, I'm more into a LARGE orchestra. Hopefully I can find another pressing of von Karajan and the Berlin Phil. I sincerely hope that you can find a version that will speak to your heart.


Regards!

Giovanni


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## Handel

Favorite oratorios: 

1. Messiah (Handel)
2. Israel in Egypt (Handel)
3. Solomon (Handel)
4. Die Schöpfung (Haydn)


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## Morigan

Has anyone heard "Elijah" by Mendelssohn? I've never heard it, but it's going to be performed in my town next season, and I'm wondering if i should go see it.

Anyway, I have to say my favourites are Messiah and Die Schöpfung, because I have barely ever heard other oratorios.


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## Guest

For me it is very simple:

Messiah
St Mathews Passion
Joshua
Followed by almost any other Oratorio, especially if Emma Kirkby is singing.


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## cato

Yes, Morigan, I have heard Mendelssohn's "Elijah", and it is wonderful!  

I'm going to by it and add it to my collection.  

Oh, and Giovannimusica...... about Brahms "Requiem" that we had talked about......

I bought it a few days ago, and I love it!  

I got the DG version with Claudio Abbado and the Berliner Philharmoniker. I listened to a lot of different versions, before deciding on this one. It's a LIVE version, which I happen to love live preforamce CD's, and the sound is crisp and clear.

Brahms Requiem is one of the most moving pieces of music I have ever heard or owned. And what's funny, is that there are parts of it that I have heard in films over the years, so I already had heard it before without realizing it.  

Awsome work! Brahms rules!  Thanks Giovannimusica!


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## Rod Corkin

4/4player said:


> Handel's Messiah....I think its the greatest oratorio work ever created...
> Especially the Halleluah chorus...the history of how it was finished and performed surpasses others...it was performed for the benefit of sick people, one famous classical music composer said this after listening to the Hallelujah chorus, "He is the master of us all." just thoughts from an aspiring conductor...
> 4/4player


Though I would not argue with these sentiments I think Handel even bettered this with Theodora, his second-but-last. He was especially proud of this work, calling it his favourite. Also Saul, Isreal in Egypt, Solomon, Jephtha, Judas Maccabaeus are all superb, I could go on...


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## Handel

Acis and Galatea is also one of his greatest "oratorios". True, it is not a pure oratorio. It's not an opera nor a cantata neither. But presence of choruses could tie it with oratorios.


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## 4/4player

I just recieved my full score copy of Handel's Messiah!=)...my music teacher said there was a special effect in the "Hallelujah" chorus? He said atthe last few measures, the bass line would be singing "Amen" in music notes, while the Chorus was singing "Hallelujah", so both "amen" and "Hallelujah" would be going in th same time, Is this likely to be true?


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## Rod Corkin

Handel said:


> Acis and Galatea is also one of his greatest "oratorios". True, it is not a pure oratorio. It's not an opera nor a cantata neither. But presence of choruses could tie it with oratorios.


Well this was referred to as a 'masque' at the time amongst other things. Closer to his cantatas in feel I think, but sublime in any case. Nevertheless if one extends the scope of 'oratorio' that brings into mind such supremely elevated works of art as 'Alexander's Feast' and 'l'Allegro, il Penserose ed il Moderato'. Where does it end with Handel?


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## Handel

Rod Corkin said:


> Well this was referred to as a 'masque' at the time amongst other things. Closer to his cantatas in feel I think, but sublime in any case. Nevertheless if one extends the scope of 'oratorio' that brings into mind such supremely elevated works of art as 'Alexander's Feast' and 'l'Allegro, il Penserose ed il Moderato'. Where does it end with Handel?


All vocal works in english from 1738 to his death (with exception The Choice of Hercules) were called oratorio.

However, works like Semele and Hercules do not have the structure of an oratorio.


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## Rod Corkin

Handel said:


> All vocal works in english from 1738 to his death (with exception The Choice of Hercules) were called oratorio.
> 
> However, works like Semele and Hercules do not have the structure of an oratorio.


Traditionally Oratorio is reserved for works of a religious or at least highly moral subject. Semele and Hercules are operas in all but name, but then you could say that about Susanna and Theodora for example.


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## robert newman

I love Handel's last oratorio 'Jeptha' (1751) though I do not own a recording of it. Also 'Israel in Egypt'. These two works alone are phenomenal.


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## Rod Corkin

robert newman said:


> I love Handel's last oratorio 'Jeptha' (1751) though I do not own a recording of it. Also 'Israel in Egypt'. These two works alone are phenomenal.


Well the best recording of Jephtha currently available is on Brilliant Classics label as as such is very cheap indeed, I bought mine for £9.99 in HMV for 3 cds. Better than Gardiner's recording. Isreal is a choral tour de force the likes of which I have not heard elsewhere, especially when performed as Handel originally intended with the Funeral Anthem as the First Part. You have the best Israel recording Rob (Parrott, Taverner Choir and Players, Virgin). Also look for Solomon by McCreesh, Gabrielli Consort, another mammoth piece which contains probably Handel's most epic choruses. Another great bargain is Saul on Naxos, which I prefer to McCreesh's.


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## Handel

Rod Corkin said:


> Well the best recording of Jephtha currently available is on Brilliant Classics label as as such is very cheap indeed, I bought mine for £9.99 in HMV for 3 cds. Better than Gardiner's recording. Isreal is a choral tour de force the likes of which I have not heard elsewhere, especially when performed as Handel originally intended with the Funeral Anthem as the First Part. You have the best Israel recording Rob (Parrott, Taverner Choir and Players, Virgin). Also look for Solomon by McCreesh, Gabrielli Consort, another mammoth piece which contains probably Handel's most epic choruses. Another great bargain is Saul on Naxos, which I prefer to McCreesh's.


Solomon by Gardiner is great too (alas, there are few cuts).

Peter Newmann and his Collegium Cartusianum recorded (MDG label) Handel oratorios with success (Saul, Belshazzar, Theodora, Susanna, Athalia).


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## Handel

Also Hercules by Minkowski (Archiv) is great.


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## Rod Corkin

Handel said:


> Also Hercules by Minkowski (Archiv) is great.


This is true, though Minkowski has some rough edges to his direction from time to time in his Handel recordings. All of Handel's big vocal pieces are top drawer stuff, and this amounts to dozens and dozens of works, mostly unknown to all but the most tasteful connoisseur.

However above all I mention again Theodora, but do not consider the current CD recordings of this, if you can get the DVD of the semi-staged production at Glyndebourne. This is truely a miracle. There is something supremely profound yet very forboding about this piece from the outset, something to do with death, and rightly so as the hero and heroine are executed in the final scene - something unheard of at the time for a theatre production. Indeed imagine Florestan and Leonore being cut down by Pizzaro in the last moments of Fidelio (which has a similar tale) and there you have Theodora. Of course the work was probably Handel's biggest boxoffice failure and was forgotten for over 200 years, despite the numerous anecdotes that Handel regarded it as his greatest work.

Of all the conspiraces discussed here, true or imagined, they all pale in to insignificance compared to that which has resulted in the outright neglect and disregard of Handel's music until the last 20 years of so. Handel has been squarely kept under lock and key as a result of the Bachian cult beloved of music academics. This is the legacy of the academisation of the art of music, and the devient tendencies that have developed over time as a direct result.


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## dexter

My favourite oratorios are Handel’s Messiah and Judas Maccabaeus, as well as Mendelssohn’s Elijah. In my opinion, Handel’s Messiah is the greatest oratorio ever written. It is among the most popular and is widely performed especially during Christmas or Easter. The melodic phrases are beautiful and easily remembered. What make this work more interesting are the difficult fugal passages as performed by the 4-voice chorale. Though I’m not fully acquainted with the entire oratorio repertoire, I must admit that there are a lot more oratorios equally beautiful as Handel’s Messiah.


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## StlukesguildOhio

Looking at some of the suggestions here it seems as if we are required to stay strictly to "oratorios" but any larger choral piece. Among my favorites I would surely include:

1. Bach- St. Matthew Passion
2. Bach- St. John Passion (unjustly ignored)
3. Haydn- The Creation
4. Beethoven- Missa Solemnis
5. Brahms- Deutsches Requiem
6. Mozart- Requiem
7. Mozart- Mass in C
8. Faure- Requiem
9. Verdi- Requiem
10. Handel- Messiah

... but that's just a start... I'm such a huge fan of choral music I wouldn't know where to end.


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## Handel

dexter said:


> My favourite oratorios are Handel's Messiah and Judas Maccabaeus, as well as Mendelssohn's Elijah. In my opinion, Handel's Messiah is the greatest oratorio ever written. It is among the most popular and is widely performed especially during Christmas or Easter. The melodic phrases are beautiful and easily remembered. What make this work more interesting are the difficult fugal passages as performed by the 4-voice chorale. Though I'm not fully acquainted with the entire oratorio repertoire, I must admit that there are a lot more oratorios equally beautiful as Handel's Messiah.


Can only agree. 

Check for Solomon, Saul, Israel in Egypt, Belshazzar, Hercules, Jeptha, etc.

And don't overlook some of his operas (Gulio Cesare and Alcina in particular)


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## miamibachfan

"Belshazzar's Feast" William Walton.

Quite amazing, really.


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## Guest

*stlukesguild2*

_Re your sig_:
_Modern art is what happens when painters stop looking at girls and persuade themselves that they have a better idea._
The same can be said of some Composers when compared the the Masters


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## Guest

I nominate the Faure Requiem which I find incredibly moving. You can listen to the Pie Jesu movement from the Requiem performed beautifully by Lucia Popp here:


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## Guest

I am confused,  is a Requiem mass now classed as an oratorio??


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## Guest

No, I don't believe it is.  I just nominated the Faure because there were a couple of other mentions of requiems and the Faure should not be overlooked. As we know, a requiem is composed using the specific latin text of the requiem mass, or mass for the dead. Similarly other masses that were written to celebrate specific days on the liturgical calendar are based on specific latin text. Oratorios do not necessarily need to use sacred themes or text.

Speaking of oratorios, I purchased the following two years ago in France. It is only available on import in Australia. It is a harmonia Mundi CD and is available on Amazon. It has become one of my top five CD's at this time.

*Maddalena ai piedi di Cristo by Antonio Caldara *
Antonio Caldara (Composer), Rene Jacobs (Conductor), Basel Scola Cantorum (Orchestra), Maria Cristina Kiehr, Rosa Dominguez,Bernarda Fink, Andreas Scholl, Gerd Turk, Ulrich Messthaler, Chiara Banchini. Label: Harmonia Mundi (France) 
ASIN: B0000007C4





(Track 1 Disc 1.)




(Track 58, Disc 2.)


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## Weston

Would Willam Walton's Christopher Columbus be considered an oratorio? No I suppose not -- it is secular. Whatever it is, it's wicked awsome! I used to have it on tape. There are three CD's I've found available and I wish I knew which of them is best. Perhaps I should save and go for the SACD version.


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## Weston

anmarwis said:


> *Maddalena ai piedi di Cristo by Antonio Caldara *
> Antonio Caldara (Composer), Rene Jacobs (Conductor), Basel Scola Cantorum (Orchestra), Maria Cristina Kiehr, Rosa Dominguez,Bernarda Fink, Andreas Scholl, Gerd Turk, Ulrich Messthaler, Chiara Banchini. Label: Harmonia Mundi (France)
> ASIN: B0000007C4
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Track 1 Disc 1.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Track 58, Disc 2.)


These voices are stunning. No - maybe calming is the word. I'm not entirely sold on Caldara yet, but I have subscribed to that person's channel. There's quite a bit of great stuff that is new to me.

I'm so used to Handel's oratorios with their recitatives that usually come to a pronounced ending before moving on to the aria or chorus. Caldara's end more gingerly in the two samples. It's interesting.

So much great music, so little time . . .


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## Guest

*anmarwis *

I can see how my post seemed as if I was addressing you but that was not what I intended, just my clumsy way of wording it, I did see the other references to non oratorio works made by other posters and that is what prompted my response.
I enjoy oratorio much more than opera perhaps because I am so fond of all types of choral singing, IMHO it is a bit closer to pure music and does not have the distraction of Great Singers showing themselves as very mediocre actors prancing about the stage, _*apologies to all opera lovers.*_

*Weston*
Here is a good guide to Oratorio I hope I am not being condescending 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oratorio


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## fox_druid

Mine are :

1. St. John's Passion BWV 245 (Bach)
2. St. Matthew Passion BWV 244 (Bach)
3. Messiah (Handel) 
4. Joshua (Handel)
5. Christmas Oratorio BWV 248 (Bach)


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## Scriabinian

St.John Passion.-J.S.BACH
St.Matthew Passion.-J.S.BACH
Paulus.-F.MENDELSSOHN
The paradise and the Peri.-R.SCHUMANN
Elijah.-F.MENDELSSOHN

And now searching for a good recording of Liszt Christus after all oustanding critics I´ve read about it in the last year.


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## Il_Penseroso

*Messiah*, *Messiah*, *Messiah* ... ! well, in the second place Haydn's *Die Schöpfung (The Creation)*.


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## mamascarlatti

Handel - Solomon
Handel - Messiah
Handel - Theodora
Bach - St Matthew Passion


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## TxllxT

Vivaldi - Juditha Triumfans
Monteverdi - Vespro della beata Vergine


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## haydnfan

Despite my favorite baroque era composer being Bach by a long shot (I listen to him nearly every day), the Messiah is my favorite oratorio and my favorite work of the baroque era.


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## GoneBaroque

Elgar – The Dream of Gerontius
Bach – St. Matthew Passion
Bach – St. John Passion
Handel - Acis snd Galatea
Handel – Judas Maccabaeus
Handel – Saul
Walton – Belshazzar’s Feast
Schmidt, Franz – The Book of the Seven Seals
Delius – A Mass of Life
Bloch - Sacred Service (Avodath Hakodesh


Disregarding genre the greatest choral composition of all is Bach's Mass in b minor


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## LordBlackudder

the only live youtube footage is from a camera phone.


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## Guest

haydnfan said:


> Despite my favorite baroque era composer being Bach by a long shot (I listen to him nearly every day), the Messiah is my favorite oratorio and my favorite work of the baroque era.


You can't go wrong with GFH and the Messiah is tops


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## tannhaeuser

Not sure who heard of it, but William Walton's Belshazzar's Feast, sang it!


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## TzarIvan

Handel's Samson for sure !!


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## tdc

haydnfan said:


> my favorite baroque era composer being Bach by a long shot (I listen to him nearly every day), .


My favorite baroque era composer is also Bach by a long shot but personally I would list my top 3 Oratorios as probably -

1) J.S. Bach - St. Matthew Passion 
2) J.S. Bach - St. John Passion 
3) J.S. Bach - Christmas Oratorio


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## HarpsichordConcerto

tdc said:


> My favorite baroque era composer is also Bach by a long shot but personally I would list my top 3 Oratorios as probably -
> 
> 1) J.S. Bach - St. Matthew Passion
> 2) J.S. Bach - St. John Passion
> 3) J.S. Bach - Christmas Oratorio


Nice. Just a clarification. The _St. Matthew_ and _St. John_, as suggested, are passions, not oratorios to be painfully technical. Passions and oratorios differ quite significantly from a musical point of view. In Bach's time (and he was careful to use the right words to describe passion and oratorio), the passion was dedicated to telling _the story of the life_ of Jesus Christ, usually according to the gospels of the New Testament. And musically, there was often a narrator, Jesus Christ himself and the chorale (not to be confused with chorus) conveying the story - what actually happened according to the gospels (or other witnesses). Passions were almost certainly used as church services and even the congregations who attended the services may have sung together in the chorales.

Oratorios on the other hand, as far as the ones that centre around Jesus Christ, do not convey the story of the life of JC but are much more about the message of JC/Christianity in general. This is why Bach described BWV248 as an oratorio. Or indeed, Handel's _The Messiah_ was about the message of Jesus Christ. Both these works lack a narrator, but follow instead more operatic styles of recitative, aria and chorus (with little to no chorale).

However, the majority of oratorios didn't often centre around the message of Jesus Christ himself but coveyed religious themes from both the Old and New Testaments. This is the usual understanding of "oratorio". The majority of Handel's oratorios were dramatic accounts of other Biblical stories, as were the prevailing use of the oratorio format during the Baroque and Classical periods. Another distinction was that oratorios were often not first performed as part of any church service but could have been performed as an evening's entertainment in a theatre (but often during religious periods nonetheless).

So tdc, you favourite oratorio is actually BWV248. And a very a lovely one it is. I remember when I first heard its opening chorus and I swept by its majestic qualities.

As for other oratorios, any of Handel's are pretty damn good!


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Oh...and of course Haydn's last two oratorios, _The Creation_ and _The Seasons_ were grand masterworks that praised his God about the creation and nature etc.


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## SixFootScowl

Not exactly sure what constitutes an oratorio, but I love Handel's Messiah, also his St. John's Passion, Resurrection, Dixit Dominis. Also like Vivaldis Gloria. I am going to check out Saint-Saëns 'Christmas Oratorio' too--thanks for the tip. If masses apply, I have several Beethoven Missa Solemnis and two Mass in C. This is a somewhat biased post as I have not heard any others.


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## elgar's ghost

Three I like which I don't think have been mentioned yet - Berlioz' L'enfance du Christ, Honegger's Le roi David and Tippett's A Child of Our Time.


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## SixFootScowl

Now this looks interesting too: 

Handel's "Music For The Chapel Royal" which is sung in English.


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## Lisztian

Like the OP Lisztfreak (OMG another Lisztian. Where did he go?), Christus is my favourite. Helmuth Rilling has by far my favourite interpretation. Truly a romantic era choral masterpiece.


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## Pestouille

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Nice. Just a clarification. The _St. Matthew_ and _St. John_, as suggested, are passions, not oratorios to be painfully technical. Passions and oratorios differ quite significantly from a musical point of view. In Bach's time (and he was careful to use the right words to describe passion and oratorio), the passion was dedicated to telling _the story of the life_ of Jesus Christ, usually according to the gospels of the New Testament. And musically, there was often a narrator, Jesus Christ himself and the chorale (not to be confused with chorus) conveying the story - what actually happened according to the gospels (or other witnesses). Passions were almost certainly used as church services and even the congregations who attended the services may have sung together in the chorales.
> 
> Oratorios on the other hand, as far as the ones that centre around Jesus Christ, do not convey the story of the life of JC but are much more about the message of JC/Christianity in general. This is why Bach described BWV248 as an oratorio. Or indeed, Handel's _The Messiah_ was about the message of Jesus Christ. Both these works lack a narrator, but follow instead more operatic styles of recitative, aria and chorus (with little to no chorale).
> 
> However, the majority of oratorios didn't often centre around the message of Jesus Christ himself but coveyed religious themes from both the Old and New Testaments. This is the usual understanding of "oratorio". The majority of Handel's oratorios were dramatic accounts of other Biblical stories, as were the prevailing use of the oratorio format during the Baroque and Classical periods. Another distinction was that oratorios were often not first performed as part of any church service but could have been performed as an evening's entertainment in a theatre (but often during religious periods nonetheless).
> 
> So tdc, you favourite oratorio is actually BWV248. And a very a lovely one it is. I remember when I first heard its opening chorus and I swept by its majestic qualities.
> 
> As for other oratorios, any of Handel's are pretty damn good!


What you are saying is right from a Haydn Oratorio point of view, but not for all Oratorios. Bach's oratorios include "Narrativo" parts sandwiched with arias (to make it simple), Haydn include choir parts sandwiched with arias. In fact Bach used the form of the cantatas to build up his oratorios: the Chrismas Oratorio is build with 3 cantatas: Kantate No. 1 (Am ersten Weinachtsfeiertage), Kantate No. 2 (Am zweiten Weinachtsfeiertage), Kantate No. 3 (Am dritten Weinachtsfeiertage). Concering the fact that Passion can be oratorios or not, is much more a problem of content, than a musical one. Depending on the religious beliefs or personal point of views, Bach passions are called oratorios or not. It is more a Lutheran tradition to distinguish between the whole Jesus story (passion) and excerpts of it or Bible excerpts. The model for Bach has been "The Brockes Passion", or "Der für die Sünde der Welt gemarterte und sterbende Jesus" is a German oratorio libretto by Barthold Heinrich Brockes, first published in 1712, which inspired Bach for his passions. But not only Bach, also Telemann 'Brockes Passion', Händel 'Brockes Passion', Fasch, etc... which are often referred as Oratorios (except Telemann). Passions were mostly not performed during regular services, but on special days or special events-services. There were even Passions composed as parodies and if I am not mistaken (I should check...),some of those has been played outside church (but very rarerly indeed).

In this context I would suggest a version of the 'Brockes Passion' which I enjoy frequently.









And of course an Haydn Schöpfung version:


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## tgtr0660

Ok if we accept passions as oratorios then Bach's St Matthew Passion towers above them all in my view. But if we don't count them, then I'll go with the typical choice because is the best: Handel's Messiah. I also love Haydn's The Creation and Handel's own Jephta. Telemann's Brockes Passion, mentioned above, takes a while to digest but it is a serious masterpiece after all.


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## SixFootScowl

Handel's Chandos Anthems are wonderful, sung in English and basically the Psalms. Goes well with Messiah.


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## Guest

They are indeed fine works I have the Christophers and the Sixteen set.


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## Pestouille

tgtr0660 said:


> Ok if we accept passions as oratorios then Bach's St Matthew Passion towers above them all in my view. But if we don't count them, then I'll go with the typical choice because is the best: Handel's Messiah. I also love Haydn's The Creation and Handel's own Jephta. Telemann's Brockes Passion, mentioned above, takes a while to digest but it is a serious masterpiece after all.


Repetition makes 'Brockes Passion' more digestible...:angel:

Let's take Arvo Part Oratorio to avoid any trouble between 'Die Schöpfung' and 'The Messiah'... I have only seen one recording, it should disable any discussion. Or someone knows a second version?

What you said the 'St John Passion' from Part too... Gosh, these dicussions will never end...


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## Crudblud

Honegger - Jeanne d'Arc au bûcher


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## SixFootScowl

Andante said:


> They are indeed fine works I have the Christophers and the Sixteen set.


 That is wonderful. I only have numbers 10 and 11, but am looking to get more. Just checked and mine is by "THe Sixteen Choir and Orchestra."


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## Guest

TallPaul said:


> That is wonderful. I only have numbers 10 and 11, but am looking to get more. Just checked and mine is by "THe Sixteen Choir and Orchestra."


They were on my want list for 2 years.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Pestouille said:


> What you are saying is right from a Haydn Oratorio point of view, but not for all Oratorios. Bach's oratorios include "Narrativo" parts sandwiched with arias (to make it simple), Haydn include choir parts sandwiched with arias. In fact Bach used the form of the cantatas to build up his oratorios: the Chrismas Oratorio is ...


Using a narrator or not is not the point. Handel's _The Messiah_ starts off with _Comfort ye my people_ for a narrator but the whole oratorio was not about the *story* of the life of Jesus Christ. Passions were for that - the *story* of the life of Jesus Christ (and often using a narrator/Evangelist). Oratorios were much broader in scope - it could have been stories from the Old Testament or just about Christianity message in general. Bach's _Christmas Oratorio_ and the _Ascension Oratorio_, as you noted, using the cantata format, was about the _message_ of Christ, not the story of the life of Jesus (i.e. what happened according to his disciples and other witnessess etc.) That's why Handel never wrote any Passions in England - all his English oratorios were about the message of their religion. He wrote only one Passion, which was an early work, likely in Hamburg.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

tgtr0660 said:


> Ok if we accept passions as oratorios then Bach's St Matthew Passion towers above them all in my view. But if we don't count them, then I'll go with the typical choice because is the best: Handel's Messiah. I also love Haydn's The Creation and Handel's own Jephta. Telemann's Brockes Passion, mentioned above, takes a while to digest but it is a serious masterpiece after all.


You could consider the Passion as a very specific type of oratorio if you prefer, though the composers of the Baroque and Classical would have been more careful to describe their compositions as Passions or not.


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## Guest

I am going to re do my list so now I have: Messiah - Israel in Egypt - Alexander's Feast - Judas Maccabaeus


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## SixFootScowl

Just got Chandos Anthems 1, 2, and 3, also by The Sixteen. I decided to query The Sixteen on amazon and now have on order a used copy of their Messiah, the older one as they did a more recent recording also. Am getting into the English versions of Bach's St. John's Passion (have) and St. Matthew's Passion (on order).


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## CVM

Brahms Requiem: I adore the music, and I have two versions that I treasure, but both are old and so you may not be interested in re-engineered monaural sound, but here goes:

Fritz Lehmann cond., 1954 - DGG

Rudolf Kempe, 1955 - Membran (also on a discontinued EMI which you can get reissued by www.arkivmusic.com)

I've never heard a so-called 'period' version but I feel no need to seek one out, the above are just luscious.


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## CVM

Interesting thread to come across in my first day on the site, because lately my great passion (no pun intended) has been to immerse myself in the oratorio literature of the so-called 'classical' period, which I have arbitrarily designated for my purposes to be 1750-1801. Excluding Händel and Telemann because by 1750 they're more throwbacks than anything else...but mostly because if I get those two into it I'll go broke! Anyway, In the past couple of months I've assembled a list of 33 oratorio and oratorio-equivalent works I wanted to pore over in depth - many of which I already owned - and today the 32d and last on my list arrived in the mail. (The 33d I can't find affordably at all.) 

So if my list of (current) favorites seems a bit obscure mostly, and hints that I may know a whole lot about this and want to show off, that's not it at all; it's just that the topic happens to hit me exactly where I've been doing so much of my listening recently.

P.S. - Why end in 1801 and not 1800? Because that way I get to include Haydn's 'Seasons' and Beethoven's 'Christus' - the latter of which was according to some notes written in that year; others say 1803 but I'll believe the former just to keep it on the list....

My current five:

HAYDN - Creation (I strongly suspect this will never lose its top spot)
HOMILIUS - Christmas Oratorio
J.M. KRAUS - Tod Jesu
JOSEF MYSLIVECEK - La Passione
G. S. MAYR - Sisara

And now I'm off to play the CDs that arrived today, Homilius's St. John Passion.


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## Operadowney

Haven't listened to a whole lot but I really like the Seven Last Words of Christ by Haydn. Not EXACTLY an oratorio but it does the trick...


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## Lt.Belle

Hey it's been a long time someone posted something in this thread.
12 december i'm going to my first Bach's Weihnachtsoratorium. I discovered it a few years ago but now i finally have the change to hear it live i'm so excited.

But really the best work i know of Beethoven is his oratorium called Christus am ölberge, because im a huge Cristina Deutekom fan.
I'm sorry i have to admit i only know these 2 oratoria but hopefully i will be inspired by lots more but that's a slow process in my case. For those interested i'll insert a link:


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## Pugg

OperaJelle said:


> Hey it's been a long time someone posted something in this thread.
> 12 december i'm going to my first Bach's Weihnachtsoratorium. I discovered it a few years ago but now i finally have the change to hear it live i'm so excited.
> 
> But really the best work i know of Beethoven is his oratorium called Christus am ölberge, because im a huge Cristina Deutekom fan.
> I'm sorry i have to admit i only know these 2 oratoria but hopefully i will be inspired by lots more but that's a slow process in my case. For those interested i'll insert a link:


You must be Dutch.......


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## gellio

I just both Elgar's _The Dream of Gerontius_, _The Kingdom_ and _The Apostles_. Bought all three with Elmer at the helm. We'll see how I like them.

For me _Die Schöpfung_ stands above all others.


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## Xaltotun

Oratorios are among my absolutely favourite genres! Here's my top ten.

1. Die Schöpfung (Haydn)
2. Das Buch mit Sieben Siegeln (Schmidt)
3. Christus (Liszt)
4. Die Legende des Heiligen Elisabeth (Liszt)
5. Svata Ludmila (Dvorak)
6. Paulus (Mendelssohn)
7. Elias (Mendelssohn)
8. Das Paradies und die Peri (Schumann)
9. Les Beatitudes (Franck)
10. Die Jahreszeiten (Haydn)


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## DemetriusZ

My top ten favorite oratorios:

1. Die Schöpfung (Haydn)
2. The Choice Of Hercules (Handel)
3. Brockes Passion (Handel)
4. Solomon (Handel)
5. St Matthew Passion (Schuetz)
6. Johannes Passion (Bach)
7. Judas Maccabaeus (Handel)
8. Samson (Handel)
9. The Messiah (Handel)
10. Die Schöpfung (Haydn)


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