# Concertgoers who leave during the concert...



## Sid James

I've talked about this elsewhere on TC, but thought I'd make a separate thread on it.

Here in Australia, there seems to be a special breed of concertgoers, if you can call them that. What they do is stay for the first half of the concert if what they see as "easy" music is played, and leave during interval if anything vaguely different or challenging to their ideas/experience of music is coming up in the second half.

I've seen this happen here, and so have friends/colleagues who are regular concertgoers. It seems to happen almost exclusively with flagship groups playing at the big prestigious venues. I have never seen it happen in the smaller venues, eg. concerts in the suburban town halls, universities, churches, etc.

At one Australian Chamber Orchestra concert a few years back, I estimated that between a quarter to a third of the audience left during interval. Before the interval there was a mix of c20th works for/involving string orchestra - by Peter Sculthorpe, Vaughan Williams, Xenakis, Bartok. After the interval came Richard Strauss' _Metamorphosen for 23 solo strings_. I guess that this piece's vague tonality may be an issue with some "hard" conservative listeners (I remember attending an earlier performance of it, after the work, a guy next to me said to his wife "That had no point."). Otherwise, I'm not sure, I see it as quite an emotionally arresting piece, even my sister at about age 12 was very moved by it when hearing it live years back (& she's not a huge classical fan by any means, then as now). In any case, at that ACO concert, me & my companion were advantaged by this, we were moved forward several rows by the ushers when we went to the hall in the second half, we occupied the seats of the departed people for the final work.

But a more notorious case happened here more recently. In a performance earlier this year here of Mahler's _Symphony #9_, quite a number of audience members evidently not happy with what they were hearing actually left during the symphony (there was a mass walk out in a break between the movements). The conductor, Maestro Vladimir Ashkenazy, gave them an ironic wave goodbye. His body language was apparently more like "good riddance." BTW, the main work in the first half was one of Mozart's piano concertos.

My questions related to all this are (besides your general comments, which are very welcome) -

1. Does this kind of thing happen in your neck of the woods (eg. outside Australia, in the USA, UK, Europe, Asia, etc.)

2. What do you think of concertgoers who do this, who operate like this? (I personally think it's rude to the musicians, for one thing, but I could go on)

3. To our members who are musicians, has this happened at a performance you played in, or how would you feel if this happened to you?

4. As a concertgoer yourself, would/have you done this? Eg. attend a concert for only the first half, then leave before the second? Eg. you love the first work/s but hate the ones in the second half?

This has been mulling around in my mind for years, if not more than a decade, so I'd be interested in what people think about these very "selective" listeners...


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## mamascarlatti

I once walked out of an appalling Regie production of Mazeppa at ENO. I just couldn't stand another moment of it and left at the interval. But usually I stay to the bitter end.

I can't imagine walking out during the performance.


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## Sid James

^^ Well if it's "appalling" this kind of reaction is understandable. But I'm talking more of things that are acceptable to most average listeners but not so to this "selective" (self limiting?) group. Eg. my examples above of R. Strauss' _Metamorphosen_ or Mahler's _Symphony #9_. In terms of your area of opera, mamascarlatti, it's like booking in for a performance of say some modern/contemporary opera & leaving because maybe you haven't heard that kind of music before. Not necessarily to do with the production values or direction, etc. but the music itself. I'm talking of inflexibility and "tough as nails" conservatism here.

But I take you to imply that you like or even love the work itself,_ Mazeppa_ (is it by Tchaikovsky?), but you just didn't like how it was produced, etc. I think that's okay, basically, if you feel it's not doing the work justice. I have an acquaintance who went to a similar modern production of a Handel opera here, and it had Indian gangsters in dirty singlets and these kinds of things (set in modern-day London, which has a large Indian/Pakistani community, the production emphasized that). She didn't walk out but she was not very happy with this interpretation.

In other words, you are not really the type of concert (or opera) goer I was thinking of. I'm thinking more of people who are locked into certain ways of thinking about music which I see as highly inflexible. It is about their rather limited or unyielding musical taste more than anything else. Yes, I am kind of judging these people here, but so what? They judge some of the greatest composers as rubbish, at least that's what their actions tell me...


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Sid James said:


> 2. What do you think of concertgoers who do this, who operate like this? (I personally think it's rude to the musicians, for one thing, but I could go on)
> 
> 4. As a concertgoer yourself, would/have you done this? Eg. attend a concert for only the first half, then leave before the second? Eg. you love the first work/s but hate the ones in the second half?


Personally, I'm not bothered by it because the early leavers would have known the concert programme in advance and made an economic decision to spend money (buy tickets) and allocate time to attend. If the entire concert was not to their liking, then obviously they would have not bothered at all. If they left while the performance was still going, then that would be rude as that would have interrupted others, but if they left during the break, then maybe the performance was not to their liking ("a bad performance").

I have never walked out of a concert early or part way, as I knew in advance whether the whole concert was worth attending or not, and even if there were pieces I might not have enjoyed, it was still a pleasure to attend the entire session, and then perhaps commented after the concert that the performance or piece was crap.

I can understand leaving early after a Mozart and not attending the second half of Mahler would strike me as a rather limited listening range, assuming the performance itself was not crap, which most probably was not in the example. But bear in mind listeners of the past in Handel's or Mozart's or Verdi's times would have been even less accommodating!


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## regressivetransphobe

> 2. What do you think of concertgoers who do this, who operate like this? (I personally think it's rude to the musicians, for one thing, but I could go on)


I like to assume the best of people, so I'd probably guess something urgent came up and not even consider they're conservative "hardliners" who don't want to be challenged.

I can't be a hypocrite and say it bothers me. I don't have any profound antipathy for any classical music, but there are kinds of music I hate deeply enough to walk out on. I can see how it's rude though.


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## elgar's ghost

If people leave because they are unhappy with the music itself rather than with the actual music-making then I suppose it's their prerogative but I'd feel a bit sorry for the musicians who presumably have rehearsed the disliked work just as much as the work which the ones who are leaving happened to like - it can't be nice seeing people make their way to the exits when you you've been busting your *** trying to give it your best shot.


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## itywltmt

I don't know how relevant this POV is, but I wonder if concerts start too late, and end too late, and if weekday concerttgoers simply make the decision to leave early because they have to go work the next day, or to send the kid-sitter home before her bedtime, or what...

(I know sometimes music critics leave if concerts drag on close to their deadline time.)

Or maybe there is something more sinister at play (ie, concertgoers skip because they don't fancy "hard" music).

At least, they leave at intermission and NOT in the middle of a piece!


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## Polednice

I'm probably just a stingy *******, but I could never imagine paying for a concert and not seeing the whole thing to get my money's worth! 

Even if there's a fantastic piece at the start of the programme that I want to hear, I'll never go to a concert unless I like the look of the whole programme. If people need to leave quickly at the end of a concert for transport issues, the other people staying to clap for an hour shouldn't be so indignant though...


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## Vesteralen

Our local symphony orchestra almost always programs new music (if there is new music) at the beginning and older music at the end. I have never seen a significant exit in the middle of a concert, even at intermission time. Then again, I don't think I've ever attended more than six concerts in a season, so I'm sure I might have missed something.

If a few people decided not to stay for Gorecki or not to stay for Mozart, I wouldn't pay much attention. If dozens left, I'm not sure. But, as I said, I've never seen that happen.


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## kv466

Sorry, Sid, but if I was exposed to Vladi trying to play Mozart,...I'd walk out, too!


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## clavichorder

When I was sitting in particular season seats at my local orchestra last year, half the time there would be some young couple making out and holding hands during certain parts, but usually they looked ancy and bored and were perhaps slightly buzzed on wine from the intermission. One couple left during Dvorak's 8th! How is that even possible?


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## Krummhorn

Sid James said:


> 1. Does this kind of thing happen in your neck of the woods (eg. outside Australia, in the USA, UK, Europe, Asia, etc.)


Yes it does ... we are volunteer ushers at our local university concert hall and have seen this frequently. Even when Itzhak Perlman was performing ... absolutely unthinkable in my manner of thinking.



Sid James said:


> 2. What do you think of concertgoers who do this, who operate like this? (I personally think it's rude to the musicians, for one thing, but I could go on)


Some may have valid reasons for leaving ... as HarpsichordConcerto stated, they paid full price for the event ... it's their loss, not the musicians on stage. See #3.



Sid James said:


> 3. To our members who are musicians, has this happened at a performance you played in, or how would you feel if this happened to you?


Yes it has ... I am not a "big draw" performer, but I am a well respected church organist/recitalist in my region and put all my best efforts into all my programs whether I am the solo performer or the accompanist at large choral events.

It is somewhat disheartening seeing people leave - or noticing a third of those who were there for the first half are now gone. I put lots of effort into what I am presenting in a concert venue, and it's somewhat insulting to me as a performer, when people don't stay for the 2nd half.



Sid James said:


> 4. As a concertgoer yourself, would/have you done this? Eg. attend a concert for only the first half, then leave before the second? Eg. you love the first work/s but hate the ones in the second half?


Never in a million years ... and for the reasons I stated in #3 above ... out of total respect for the performers, being one myself. Imho, it is rude and disrespectful to leave early. When I have the rare opportunity of visiting other churches while I am vacationing, I always stay after the service to listen to the organists Postlude, and then thank them for what they do afterwards.

Kh


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## Delicious Manager

Sid James said:


> I've talked about this elsewhere on TC, but thought I'd make a separate thread on it.
> 
> Here in Australia, there seems to be a special breed of concertgoers, if you can call them that. What they do is stay for the first half of the concert if what they see as "easy" music is played, and leave during interval if anything vaguely different or challenging to their ideas/experience of music is coming up in the second half.
> 
> I've seen this happen here, and so have friends/colleagues who are regular concertgoers. It seems to happen almost exclusively with flagship groups playing at the big prestigious venues. I have never seen it happen in the smaller venues, eg. concerts in the suburban town halls, universities, churches, etc.
> 
> At one Australian Chamber Orchestra concert a few years back, I estimated that between a quarter to a third of the audience left during interval. Before the interval there was a mix of c20th works for/involving string orchestra - by Peter Sculthorpe, Vaughan Williams, Xenakis, Bartok. After the interval came Richard Strauss' _Metamorphosen for 23 solo strings_. I guess that this piece's vague tonality may be an issue with some "hard" conservative listeners (I remember attending an earlier performance of it, after the work, a guy next to me said to his wife "That had no point."). Otherwise, I'm not sure, I see it as quite an emotionally arresting piece, even my sister at about age 12 was very moved by it when hearing it live years back (& she's not a huge classical fan by any means, then as now). In any case, at that ACO concert, me & my companion were advantaged by this, we were moved forward several rows by the ushers when we went to the hall in the second half, we occupied the seats of the departed people for the final work.
> 
> But a more notorious case happened here more recently. In a performance earlier this year here of Mahler's _Symphony #9_, quite a number of audience members evidently not happy with what they were hearing actually left during the symphony (there was a mass walk out in a break between the movements). The conductor, Maestro Vladimir Ashkenazy, gave them an ironic wave goodbye. His body language was apparently more like "good riddance." BTW, the main work in the first half was one of Mozart's piano concertos.
> 
> My questions related to all this are (besides your general comments, which are very welcome) -
> 
> 1. Does this kind of thing happen in your neck of the woods (eg. outside Australia, in the USA, UK, Europe, Asia, etc.)
> 
> 2. What do you think of concertgoers who do this, who operate like this? (I personally think it's rude to the musicians, for one thing, but I could go on)
> 
> 3. To our members who are musicians, has this happened at a performance you played in, or how would you feel if this happened to you?
> 
> 4. As a concertgoer yourself, would/have you done this? Eg. attend a concert for only the first half, then leave before the second? Eg. you love the first work/s but hate the ones in the second half?
> 
> This has been mulling around in my mind for years, if not more than a decade, so I'd be interested in what people think about these very "selective" listeners...


Audiences in Australia are notoriously conservative (more so even than American ones, I think). This is a huge issue for Australian composers, who find it difficult to find audiences for their new work within their own country. I abhore closed-minded (and cloth-eared) 'music lovers'. I know there are some people will refuse to listen to a piece of music if they don't know the title and/or the composer. How thoroughly ignorant is THAT (they actually would probably enjoy the music if they listened to it)? I would like to ask these people if they were born knowing what "Vivaldi's _The Four Seasons_" was. Or Beethoven's Fifth. This kind of unthinking ignorance and refusal to broaden horizons makes me really angry. To walk-out of a performance of one of the graetest works of symphonic literature conducted by one of our most honoured musicians shows a level of ignorance I have never encountered in 30 years in the professional. It is an insult to the composer, the music and every musician on stage. I'm astounded!


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## Chris

I went to a performance of _HMS Pinafore_ (G&S) a little while back. _Pinafore_ is a short operetta and the company would (according to the billing) perform the little known Sullivan operetta _The Zoo_ after the interval. They must have anticipated half the audience would depart at the interval because in the event they performed _The Zoo_ first. The trouble with this sort of deception is you will only get away with it once per location.


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## mmsbls

I have read several times of Bruckner's experience conducting one of his symphonies (3rd). Apparently the originally scheduled conductor died so Bruckner conducted the premiere. Supposedly most of the audience left before the end. In one retelling, after the finale Bruckner turned around to bow to the audience, and everyone had left. 

I personally have never left a professional performance I attended, but I have some mixed feelings about the views expressed above. I don't think people should leave in the middle of a piece (even between movements) as that can be very disturbing to other members of the audience. Some people purchase season tickets and may choose to leave a particular performance before a work they know they won't like. If you're going to many performances, I think it's reasonable that you may skip parts of some. More generally, I don't view this as disrespectful to the performers. Anyone who walks out has already paid money to hear the performers play. If they don't want to hear everything on the schedule, that's their prerogative.


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## jalex

kv466 said:


> Sorry, Sid, but if I was exposed to Vladi trying to play Mozart,...I'd walk out, too!


Eh? What's so bad about Ashkenazy's Mozart? Granted, he's perhaps not as accomplished as Perahia and the like but I've always found his Mozart fairly enjoyable, he has a nice touch. I can't imagine his sort of playing provoking any stronger negative reaction than indifference.


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## kv466

jalex said:


> Eh? What's so bad about Ashkenazy's Mozart? Granted, he's perhaps not as accomplished as Perahia and the like but I've always found his Mozart fairly enjoyable, he has a nice touch. I can't imagine his sort of playing provoking any stronger negative reaction than indifference.


Naaaa, Mr. James knows I was just joking with him...if anything, I too have always found his Mozart 'fairly enjoyable' at best...it is when he attempts to tackle grand scale works that he gets on my nerves.

To leave a performance during a piece is absolutely unforgivable! The Manager pointed out something which bothers me just the same which is leaving for not being familiar with a piece (!!),...I find this to be absurd...I found Bach's keyboard concerto in f minor by attending a performance where I went to go watch the first piece...I could not fathom having left. There are many pieces I have discovered and heard for the first time, live.

Now, while 95% or more of the time I would sit through the entire bill, I have to acknowledge that there are exceptions for me. One major example I can think of is wanting to see a smaller piece that is either the first or second to be played at a concert and the night is to be finished with a performance of Bolero. You couldn't pay me enough to sit through another one of those or another Rite of Spring!

Still, I mean...do people actually go to these things unaware of what they're going to hear that night? Thinking of the hoi polloi that tends to assist these events and clap after the first movement of a piece, well...I guess so. I like orchestra, third row, but if I know they're gonna close the night with something undesirable you can be sure I'm going to opt for a far seat on the aisle.

Now, if there's a piece I don't like (short list) being played in the middle, well...I'm pretty much sol.


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## Sid James

Interesting to read all your comments, I will return shortly to reply properly to people individually.

With regards to member *kv466's* comments, Maestro Ashkenazy was not the soloist in the Mozart concerto (he doesn't play piano in public any more, but he does play to practice every day, & also the usual things of playing through piano reductions of orchestral scores for study purposes to aid his conducting work, etc.).

Anyway, here's the program details of that "notorious" walk-out concert I talked about in my OP -

MOZART Piano Concerto No.13 in C, K415
(interval)
MAHLER Symphony No.9

Sydney Symphony Orchestra
Vladimir Ashkenazy, conductor
Steven Osborne, piano


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## Sid James

A lot of forum members said things that make huge sense to me, but *Krummhorn* & *Delicious Manager *hit the nail on the head in terms of what I also think (& unlike them, I am not in the music industry, but I know some people who are/were).



Krummhorn said:


> ..It is somewhat disheartening seeing people leave - or noticing a third of those who were there for the first half are now gone. I put lots of effort into what I am presenting in a concert venue, and it's somewhat insulting to me as a performer, when people don't stay for the 2nd half....Imho, it is rude and disrespectful to leave early...


That's what I thought musicians feel when this happens (audience members leave early). You have put it in words, "from the horse's mouth."



> ...When I have the rare opportunity of visiting other churches while I am vacationing, I always stay after the service to listen to the organists Postlude, and then thank them for what they do afterwards.


Which is interesting, because at some concerts I go to, I see local musicians or composers who I am familiar with who are part of the audience. I have even pumped up the courage to talk to them on some occassions eg. before the concert waiting in the lobby. In other words, musicians like yourself like to go and hear fellow musicians perform. It's kind of like a big family or fraternity. So it's naturally not nice to be rude to people like that, who you respect, and when you know you could be in their shoes, on the receiving end of other people who do not seem to appreciate what you are doing as an artist, the effort you put in, etc.



Delicious Manager said:


> ...I abhore closed-minded (and cloth-eared) 'music lovers'. I know there are some people will refuse to listen to a piece of music if they don't know the title and/or the composer. How thoroughly ignorant is THAT (they actually would probably enjoy the music if they listened to it)? ...This kind of unthinking ignorance and refusal to broaden horizons makes me really angry. To walk-out of a performance of one of the graetest works of symphonic literature conducted by one of our most honoured musicians shows a level of ignorance I have never encountered in 30 years in the professional. It is an insult to the composer, the music and every musician on stage. I'm astounded!


I feel your anger there, and I agree with these sentiments/opinions fully. So would a lot of the great composers of history if they were here now. I've been reading a book about c20th music, and in it is discussed how the German composer *Paul Hindemith *was disdainful of listeners who he thought were only interested in the superficial aspects of classical music, not in the deeper things it can offer. In his quote, he calls them highly "passive," their "...faculty of musical perception will crave only pieces which offer no resistance...a cheap and trashy amenity, an opiate always and everywhere available." He says that if music is allowed to be influenced by the attitudes of these people, it is in danger of reaching a low point. (Source - Peter Yates, _Twentieth Century Music: Its Evolution from the End of the Harmonic Era to the Present Era of Sound_, 1967/68, p. 148).


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## Tinithraviel

Sid James said:


> 1. Does this kind of thing happen in your neck of the woods (eg. outside Australia, in the USA, UK, Europe, Asia, etc.)


I dont have much opportunity go to concerts so i havent gone to many but i have seen this happen. Though at most only about 10 percent leaves.



Sid James said:


> 2. What do you think of concertgoers who do this, who operate like this? (I personally think it's rude to the musicians, for one thing, but I could go on)


To be truth music is there to enjoy if they didnt like what they are listening then i dont see any point in stay. Actually i think it is worse to stay in a concert you dont like and creating illusion of supporting music you dont enjoy. If you dont like the music you should wait for first break then go. But of course if possible you should look at program before coming, this way you can have fun and artists wont feel bad.



Sid James said:


> 4. As a concertgoer yourself, would/have you done this? Eg. attend a concert for only the first half, then leave before the second? Eg. you love the first work/s but hate the ones in the second half?


I have started listening to classical music quite recently so cant really differentiate between composers or eras. And since i dont have much experience, i dont know most of the composers. So reading program means very little to me. Yes, i know some operas and specific pieces from famous composers (mozart, beethoven, brahms, etc) but that is about it. Since i am a student with a limited budget, i mostly look at price so i can go to as many concerts as i can.

I really like classical music so i mostly stay until the end without any effort but if i hate it (which usually happens when i come across contemporary music) i wait until break then leave. If there arent any breaks i wait until the end but while i feel bad about artists' efforts, i won't join applaud.

It may be because i cant understand modern music or it may be too hard for me but i am trying and i still cant have fun. Why should i force myself while there are thousands of pieces i like waiting for me to try them.


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## kv466

I like how Krumm said, "is somewhat disheartening", because a performer's hard work and dedication is truly paid off by a great performance and not by how many people were there to witness it...if any at all. 

As far as it being disrespectful, well...right smack in the middle of a performance, definitely.


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## itywltmt

From a review this morning, in _La Presse_, of a performance last night of Messiaen's _Turangalila-Symphonie _in Montreal (my translation):



> [...] Nagano chose this work to celebrate the new hall and test out its acoustics, *but also maybe to measure his audience's tolerance for musical excess*. On that last point, only one observation: *it was amusing to see people leave after each movement * [Pierre's note: the symphony has 10 movements and took over 70 minutes to perform]. The near-entire audience - an almost full house - listened well and provided a warm ovation as a sign of its obvious pleasure.


The original review:

http://www.cyberpresse.ca/arts/musi...resse_B13b_musique-classique_486_section_POS1


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## Nix

The much more common thing I've seen is concert goers leaving a few minutes before the piece ends, presumably so they can get out of the parking complex quickly. This most notably happened during the opening of the season at the BSO last year where they played Mahler 2, and 2 dozen or so people left about 5 minutes before the end. Of course the ending of that piece is so powerful, really the jokes on them, and I think anyone who was thinking about leaving was probably glad they stayed for that. 

I do leave concerts occasionally, but usually with good reason (like it isn't good), and I'm a frequent enough concert goer, and educated enough musician that I don't feel guilty about doing it. Just the other day I left (with a chunk of other people) at the intermission of a concert. Firstly, because it was it was a vocal chamber concert on a weekday whose first half was over an hour. Secondly because it was a vocal concert that didn't have program notes, and no translations- and as I didn't know any of the pieces on the second half, I would have no idea what they were singing about.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Nix said:


> ... and I'm a frequent enough concert goer, and educated enough musician that I don't feel guilty about doing it.


Excellent point. Although I'm not a musician, I would like to think I am experienced and discerning enough to tell, as far as the quality of performance is concerned, whether it is a good one or not. Even though I have never yet walked out early due to disatisfaction, I am of the view that we are the paying audience "buying a product". (Unless it was a free concert, then we should shut up and not be too critical).


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Delicious Manager said:


> Audiences in Australia are notoriously conservative (more so even than American ones, I think). This is a huge issue for Australian composers, who find it difficult to find audiences for their new work within their own country.


I don't think conservative is the right word here. For a country with an Anglo-Saxon heritage, classical music in Australia is unfortunately not consumed as much as in Europe and or in America when measured comparably. I have read studies/reviews that suggest this, and my observation generally also tend to encourage me to think that way. If we don't have the market size, hence breadth of listeners, this is likely what we see here - limited listening range. Even composers like Bach, his cantatas are rarely performed here or even oratorios that are not _The Messiah_ or _The Creation_.


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## GraemeG

I'm with K and DM in general. Unthinkable to me.
As far as Sydney goes, I suppose people leave because they don't want to sit in the queue getting out of that hideous car-park. But, really. If all you want to do is leave quickly, why bother going in the first place?

I never leave, ever.
If it's an appalling opera production, then I want to boo at the end.

Same at the cricket. it used to amaze me the vast lines of people leaving the SCG after 5pm in a test match.
Of course, those are folks who missed Darren Gough's 5.20pm hat-trick back in 1999...

cheers,
GG


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## mamascarlatti

Sid James said:


> But I take you to imply that you like or even love the work itself,_ Mazeppa_ (is it by Tchaikovsky?), but you just didn't like how it was produced, etc. I think that's okay, basically, if you feel it's not doing the work justice.


It was sad really, it was in my early days of exploring opera and my first encounter with this lovely opera of Tchaikovsky's. The whole thing left such a bitter taste in my mouth it's taken me 25 years to approach it again - and now I know what I was missing out on.... I kind of wish I had walked out in the first 5 minutes!


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## Chris

I used to work with someone called Mike. He had no interest in classical music but he heard the main theme from Rachmaninov's second piano concerto from somewhere and liked it so much he found out what it was. When he discovered the local orchestra (Liverpool Philharmonic) was performing it he got tickets for himself and his friend. I asked him if he had enjoyed the concert. 'We left after the tune', he said. 'You surely didn't walk out after the first movement?' I said. 'No', he replied, 'we left after the tune'. I could have asked him if he'd brought a bag of popcorn into the performance but I didn't want to hear the answer.


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## sospiro

I sometimes see opera in a city not too far from where I live & there's a good train service home. I booked to see_ Il Trovatore_ but at the last minute found out the late train had been cancelled. To get the earlier train, I had to leave the theatre just as the curtain call started & I felt terrible. I could sense the artists thinking 'she hated us so much, she couldn't wait to leave'

I'm going to see _Le nozze_ there next year & have booked a hotel so I won't need to dash for a train. It still worries me & I'm hoping to see one of the singers who I feel I offended, & explain.

I went to see this performance of  Pelléas et Mélisande. It had been sold out for months and as I waited to go in I noticed a very long queue for 'returns'. After the interval there were lots of empty seats & I couldn't believe it & was angry on behalf of all those people who never got a ticket.

I can't say 100% I wouldn't walk out but I can't imagine myself doing it.


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## Artemis

I’m sorry to say that I’m going to take a line which is contrary to what most people have said previously in this thread. I can’t see anything wrong with concert-goers leaving after the interval if that’s what they want to do. I’m only talking about leaving at a suitable interval in the proceedings, not walking out part way through a performance.

There are a whole range of reasons for not returning after the interval that could be perfectly legitimate: e.g. feeling unwell, don’t want to hear any more because they know in advance they don’t like the work being played; not happy with the performance generally; finding the seat position uncomfortable or view unacceptable; being put off by noisy neighbours; having to leave early to catch transport; having to deal with some unexpected problem that requires their presence elsewhere. 

Why should I care what their reasons may be for not returning? Provided other people don’t disturb me or anyone else in the process of making their departure, I couldn’t care less what they do. In fact, I would prefer it that people who are not likely to behave well during the second half left at the interval, because they would probably irritate me more by their presence if they felt obliged were to remain under duress.

Even if these people had decided initially to stay only for the first part of a concert, why criticise them for that. It's entirely their choice. People are (as a matter of fact) free to do whatever they like at events like this in terms of whether or not they should stay for the whole show or only part of it, so why try to restrict it by censuring any decision they may choose to make to leave early if that suits them? To oblige people to stay for the entire duration of a concert, as a condition of sale of a ticket, would be a draconian measure that you might expect to have seen in the past in Soviet Russia or some such place, but in the Western world things don't happen like that, and shouldn't. Apart from anything else, it would be an impossible task to enforce such a condition of sale effectively, given the whole raft of legitimate reasons why some people may need to leave early.

Whilst I have never felt the need to leave part way through any classical music concert, opera, or ballet, that I have ever attended, I have definitely done so at cinemas where a film (movie) has been very disappointing, or because I didn’t like the venue for some reason. I have also done the same at the occasional rock concert. Two instances I can recall are: I went to a rock concert at O2 Arena London in Docklands about 2 years ago and there was a bunch of semi-drunken yobs behind me kicking the seat, slurping their drinks and generally making a nuisance of themselves and annoying others. The security guards were too far away to notice. Rather than make a fuss I put up with it until the interval and then walked out, as did several others around me. On another occasion, I was an open air concert at Wembley Stadium where the view was poor, the sound wasn’t great, it was raining and miserable, and I generally wasn’t enjoying it, so I left about half way through, as did lots of others.


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## Sid James

GraemeG said:


> ...As far as Sydney goes, I suppose people leave because they don't want to sit in the queue getting out of that hideous car-park. But, really. If all you want to do is leave quickly, why bother going in the first place?...


I've only seen & heard of this kind of thing going on in Sydney Opera House concert hall and opera theatre. As I said, I haven't seen it in the smaller, less prestigious venues. The conclusion I make about some of the people who left during the Mahler _Symphony #9_ is that they have huge wallets but are unable to appreciate music to a more than superficial level (as the quote I put in an earlier post above by Hindemith). One does not necessarily equate with the other, unfortunately. These people are stuck in the earlier times when concerts were more important for the big wigs to "wave the flag" & show their faces at social events & hob-nob with eachother, etc. rather than going for the music itself. Those times are over but some of these jurassic attitudes still exist.

As for parking, I can understand this situation, but I think it goes deeper than that.



sospiro said:


> ...I went to see this performance of  Pelléas et Mélisande. It had been sold out for months and as I waited to go in I noticed a very long queue for 'returns'. After the interval there were lots of empty seats & I couldn't believe it & was angry on behalf of all those people who never got a ticket...


Difficult to make an exact comparison, but given that it's from the same time period as the Mahler, maybe it is fair to say that those who left for that Debussy opera did so as a result of not liking what they heard. Maybe they knew this was a popular/sell-out production & just jumped on the bandwagon to get seats, not knowing what they were buying into (eg. that it wasn't going to be anything like say _The Barber of Seville_). As I said above, some people have money, but they don't have what I'd simply call commonsense in terms of matters to do with music.



mamascarlatti said:


> It was sad really, it was in my early days of exploring opera and my first encounter with this lovely opera of Tchaikovsky's. The whole thing left such a bitter taste in my mouth it's taken me 25 years to approach it again - and now I know what I was missing out on.... I kind of wish I had walked out in the first 5 minutes!


I can understand that, one of von Karajan's recordings of the first Schoenberg works I'd heard made me think that the composer was kind of stodgy, overly dark, without nuance, but it turned out (after I'd heard another recording more recently) that it was not that I didn't like the music, but only that I didn't like the interpretation.

So yes, something that kind of rubs us up the wrong way can leave a bitter aftertaste which can linger for ages, as you say (whether it's live or on record)...


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## sospiro

Sid James said:


> Difficult to make an exact comparison, but given that it's from the same time period as the Mahler, maybe it is fair to say that those who left for that Debussy opera did so as a result of not liking what they heard. Maybe they knew this was a popular/sell-out production & just jumped on the bandwagon to get seats, not knowing what they were buying into (eg. that it wasn't going to be anything like say _The Barber of Seville_). As I said above, some people have money, but they don't have what I'd simply call commonsense in terms of matters to do with music.


That's a very good point. Or they could brag to their friends that they got "the hottest ticket in town" even though they didn't like or even know the music.


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## Artemis

In my previous comment I was saying that I see no harm in people choosing to leave a concert at the usual mid-point interval if they so wish. I was not endorsing this action part-way through any performance. 

Looking back at several others’ comments, this whole discussion seems to have blurred this vital distinction. I’m not clear whether those who frown upon the latter kind of early exit also disapprove of people leaving a concert at the mid-way point (assuming there is one).

To anyone who thinks that it is unacceptable for people to leave a concert at the mid-point interval, could they possibly explain how they might go about preventing this, and what exceptions should be allowed?

Assuming that such people will see how very difficult it would be to enforce any kind of rigid discipline to prevent mid-way exits, do they accept that their main beef really boils down to an objection against departures during a performance itself?

If so, isn’t it all rather obvious that any such activity is, per se, objectionable, not just against other concert-goers but to the musicians as well, given that it is bound to cause to cause a disruption? Even if they leave in between movements, and not during a movement, it’s almost still as objectionable since the disruption element is still there whilst they move out.

I can however think of worse behaviour that someone leaving during a performance, and that is constant fidgeting, whispering, coughing, muttering either their appreciation or discontent, etc. I’ve had to put up with this kind of thing far more commonly than I’ve ever seen people walking out mid-way through a performance. 

So I’m wondering how significant this discussion of early exits is as an example of audiences behaving badly.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Artemis said:


> In my previous comment I was saying that I see no harm in people choosing to leave a concert at the usual mid-point interval if they so wish. I was not endorsing this action part-way through any performance.


I agree, which was also my point earlier given they have paid for the tickets anyway. The OP seems to have "a problem" with folks who leave early, say during the interval as that appears to imply a lack of breadth of musical appreciation given the concert programme was made up of pieces from quite different time periods (Mozart and Mahler in the OP's example). I think this can be a perception.


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## Artemis

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> I agree, which was also my point earlier given they have paid for the tickets anyway. The OP seems to have "a problem" with folks who leave early, say during the interval as that appears to imply a lack of breadth of musical appreciation given the concert programme was made up of pieces from quite different time periods (Mozart and Mahler in the OP's example). I think this can be a perception.


I agree that the OP was clear that he has a problem with both types of early exit: people who leave part way through an ongoing performance, and those who leave at the mid-point interval. I was saying that some of the later responses are not clear about the types of early exit they object to, seeming to lump together both types and saying they find all early exits objectionable or manifesting peculiar behaviour.

In the case of people who leave after the mid-point because they don't care for its contents, I can't think of a better reason to leave, unless possibly the place is on fire or a chandelier has fallen from the ceiling and given them an almighty headache, if not worse. Such people did not, after all, design the concert, and if one part of it doesn't fit their tastes then I don't see why they shouldn't be able to leave at a suitable point in the proceedings, if it doesn't disturb anyone else. The idea of possibly locking them in for the duration, for the good of their musical education, is utterly preposterous.


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## elgar's ghost

Perhaps another annoying variation is when people are given tickets to performances as 'corporate hospitality' and either don't show up at all or they turn up knowing they will be bored stiff but still fail to give the tickets to people who would appreciate them more (unless I suppose their presence is demanded by their bosses or whatever). It annoyed me when I used to see this kind of person at sporting events completely disinterested in what was going on out on the field but still keen on guzzling the freebies like there was no tomorrow and talking 'shop' all afternoon.


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## Sid James

Regarding Artemis saying there's a distinction between different types of leaving early, I basically think they're both rude, but leaving while the piece is being played is worse. 

I was just at a chamber concert last night, a number of things were played, including a wind piece in the first half. I was delighted to see some of the players of the wind piece stick around for the second half (which didn't involve winds, but was played by their colleagues & no it wasn't "atonal" as far as I know, it was Brahms!). The wind players of the first half could have just called it a night & went home, but they stayed around to enjoy the rest of the concert played by their colleagues. 

This is what I mean by not being rude and showing respect for the work of our fantastic musicians. Basically, if you have a deeper appreciation of music, then you won't leave early (whether during the interval or not). Last night at that concert, probably nobody left early, or at least not any sizeable amount. But it wasn't at the opera house, where you get leaving during interval all the time. Of course, people have a right to do this, but whatever their right, it's rude behaviour & shows their lack of appreciation for what is the "guts" of music.

I agree that patrons doing other things can often disrupt my enjoyment in other ways, but usually if I tell them gently, they will stop. Or if it is open seating, I just move to another seat after interval, &/or if there are other spare seats available to do that...


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## Sid James

sospiro said:


> That's a very good point. Or they could brag to their friends that they got "the hottest ticket in town" even though they didn't like or even know the music.


Yep. The Vienna Philharmonic are coming here soon. I doubt that these types of people - I bet a fair amount of the audience will be these people who just want to go to see a "big name" orchestra - will be rude enough to walk out during say the Bruckner 4th symphony that's on the second half of the bill of one of their gigs. They have nerve to do it with our own Sydney Symphony Orchestra, but probably not with the VPO. Double standards is basically what I'd say this is...


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## Yoshi

I had to walk out once, because a friend who came with me suddenly started having a asthma attack. The pianist was in the middle of the perfomance, but we had no choice but to leave quickly.

Since then I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt, because you can never be sure about the reason why people decided to walk out.

Even if they leave because they don't enjoy the next pieces, it's still a better reaction than those people who throw bottles and other stuff at rock concerts :lol:.


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## GraemeG

Sid James said:


> Yep. The Vienna Philharmonic are coming here soon. I doubt that these types of people - I bet a fair amount of the audience will be these people who just want to go to see a "big name" orchestra - will be rude enough to walk out during say the Bruckner 4th symphony that's on the second half of the bill of one of their gigs. They have nerve to do it with our own Sydney Symphony Orchestra, but probably not with the VPO. Double standards is basically what I'd say this is...


I'll be there. I bet there'll be empty seats after the interval. There'll be plenty of people who'll want to listen to the Mozart symphony in the first half but will just think the Bruckner too long/boring/*insert prejudice of choice* and not sit through it.
And there will be others who will rush from the hall as the finall _ff_ rings around the room. Nothing will be different. But they went, they were seen...
There was an ad for the VPO in Saturday's Sydney Morning Herald. Surely the tickets are all sold out? Their inaugural trip here in 2006 was probably the hot ticket to have. Maybe a return trip (and playing Bruckner) isn't generating as much interest. What an appalling thought.

And on the earlier discussions, if you're going to leave a concert, interval is the time to do it. Medical emergencies excepted.
cheers,
GG


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## elgar's ghost

GraemeG said:


> I'll be there. I bet there'll be empty seats after the interval. There'll be plenty of people who'll want to listen to the Mozart symphony in the first half but will just think the Bruckner too long/boring/*insert prejudice of choice* and not sit through it.
> And there will be others who will rush from the hall as the finall _ff_ rings around the room. Nothing will be different. But they went, they were seen...
> There was an ad for the VPO in Saturday's Sydney Morning Herald. Surely the tickets are all sold out? Their inaugural trip here in 2006 was probably the hot ticket to have. Maybe a return trip (and playing Bruckner) isn't generating as much interest. What an appalling thought.
> 
> And on the earlier discussions, if you're going to leave a concert, interval is the time to do it. Medical emergencies excepted.
> cheers,
> GG


As much as I like Mozart if Bruckner 4 was the main item of the programme and I had the option of seeing either but not both then I'm afraid I'd have to turn up late.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

GraemeG said:


> I'll be there.


So will I!

Don't worry Sid James, I won't be leaving early (unless the place catches fire).


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## Sid James

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> So will I!...


Sounds good. It's above my budget, but as a friend of mine said (who's going), it's cheaper than flying to Vienna to hear them. & they hardly play these kinds of concerts in their home town anyway, they're mainly an opera orchestra, that's their first priority. Happy listening & let us know how it goes.



> ...Don't worry Sid James, I won't be leaving early (unless the place catches fire).


:lol: - I was going to ask if you'd leave, esp. if you're going to one where the Bruckner is on the bill in the second half. You've said you don't like "bombast" so I thought you'd "evacuate" the premises before being subjected to that! "Ladies & gentlemen, HC has left the building...due to extreme bombast...the Wagner tubas where the last straw..." ...


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## Sid James

GraemeG said:


> ...There was an ad for the VPO in Saturday's Sydney Morning Herald. Surely the tickets are all sold out? Their inaugural trip here in 2006 was probably the hot ticket to have. Maybe a return trip (and playing Bruckner) isn't generating as much interest. What an appalling thought...


No, I don't think that less interest now in VPO compared to 2006 is for those reasons, but basically the financial crisis in the interim which happened in 2009. A recent report here said that Australians are now spending less & saving more (which I think is not a bad thing). So spending on entertainment, being a lower priority than necessities for most people, naturally would decline.

In any case, the people who I know who are going to see the VPO (or friends of friends, etc.) are likely self-funded retirees or on six figure salaries. Basically it's the well to do or the rich. I didn't check but heard it's like $400 a seat, or at least a fairly good seat. That's probably more than I spend on concerts for more than a year & I go to say two per month. But I'm into smaller scale things rather than large scale ones, so they tend to be less expensive (plus I don't care about prestige, I'm equally happy seeing amateur, semi-professional, or professional musicians play, none have disappointed me so far, at least not totally).

But as I said to HC, if you are really keen on these things, a ticket for the concert here is less expensive than going to Vienna to hear them (& probably easier, getting a ticket in Vienna to see them is like a hereditary right, the best seats have been in families since the times of the Kaiser, passed down from generation to generation, which talks to the inherent conservatism of the place, but let's not go there)...


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## GraemeG

When the VPO were here (Sydney) in 2006, we splashed out on A-reserve tickets, which were only $185. It kind-of seemed like a lot, until I recall that people will pay $300 to hear Kylie Minogue...
Things changed last year, when the Berlin Phil made their Australian debut. Then prices were something like $500 / 400 / 185 / 85 for A/B/C/D reserve seats. We bought D reserve, right up the back of the hall. The view is distant, but the sound is acceptable (there are A reserve seas which sound no better). And the concert (Rattle cond; Rach-Symphonic Dances & Mahler 1) was staggeringly good.
For this trip of VPO, they've pretty well matched the BPO for prices.
Again, though, if you get the right D-reserve seats, the sound is alright.
Let's hope Eschenbach can channel Celibidache....
cheers,
GG

ps. Oh, and there's no bombast in Bruckner 4. No Wagner tubas either. Same orchestration as Brahms 2, I think. Not sure there's even a piccolo; could be just standard double wind, 4231 in the brass, plus a timpanist. For 1880, it doesn't get much sparser than that.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Without bragging, a premium reserve ticket and a nice dinner before the concerts at a restaurant nearby make life worth while, sometimes ...


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## Moira

itywltmt said:


> (I know sometimes music critics leave if concerts drag on close to their deadline time.)


I am pleased to say that out of the five or six classical music critics we have in Johannesburg I have NEVER seen one leave before the house lights come up to signal that the audience is now required to leave. And we have at least one critic whose mother should have taught him better manners on a social level, but his concert etiquette is impeccable.

I think it is _insulting_ the choice of the people who put a programme together to leave at interval, but I must say that I have been sorely tempted at times, especially when the symphony is another version of Beethoven 5 or Mozart 40 or other weary, worthy piece.


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## mensch

It's not uncommon here in the Netherlands. Most big concert halls offer yearly subscriptions which require you to select concerts in advance. When a concert is overbooked you're may choose another from the agenda. This sometimes results in people who normally only attend concertos Bach, Mozart or similar composers being present at performances of modern music from the 20th century and onwards.

I was at a performance of Steve Reich's "Different Trains" and "Tehilim" and there was an elderly couple fitting the description of the aforementioned type of concertgoers sitting in front of me. They listened to the whole of "Different Trains", not one of Reich's easier pieces and even came back after the intermission. They did leave right in the middle of "Tehilim" which rather baffled me as its considerably less dissonant.


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## PetrB

I have and do edit programming.

My concert going often involves making a date with a modern or contemporary bit of repertoire I have either not heard, or with any number of pieces from any period which I have never heard live.

The most cliche of programming formats puts the 'dangerous' (lol) modern and contemporary piece in the middle, like _____ between two slices of 'safe and comfortably familiar' bread, with the most familiar chestnut last in the order. That most typical programming means I can walk out at the interval and edit out 'the chestnut,' disrupting nothing and no one. There are dozens of "chestnuts" I can a do happily stay to listen to, but there are chestnuts -- and then there are _*chestnuts!*_ [If there is some student or young music fan hanging about outside hoping to pick up a departing audience members ticket stub for a chance to go in and hear part of the program, they get it. 

One such edit was 1.) 'classical / romantic work 'x', followed by 2.) a Takemitsu piece // interval // 3.) Respighi's Pini di Roma as program finale. I was a student at the time. I 'edited out' the Resphigi, and was going to wait outside the hall to meet up with the group of friends with whom I had gone and had remained in the hall to hear 'Pini': walking out, I espied my composition teacher who was also on his way out. He approached me, and with a wry grin on his face said, _"You mean you don't want to leave with v-i ringing in your ears?"_

Other times, I know a work programmed first is either of no interest to me or I think it an unfortunate choice, i.e. a bad programming choice in the near inevitable salad of most concert programming: of pieces nos. 1,2, & 3, I wait that one out, and take my seat after piece No 1 is over.

A few times I have walked out mid-way on a piece in performance - I recall a Mendelssohn Symphony, with which I have 'no problem,' but the playing was truly so sloppy it was to me really annoying... no use compounding money ill-spent by throwing time ill spent into the formula. In those instances, it is no more rude to walk out mid-way than it is rude for the players to call themselves professional, charge a very professional ticket price, and not deliver what is minimally expected.

As to that (sorry) to me provincial audience when so many departed part-way through Mahler 9? I think I might have given them a few points for trying to endure, a few demerits for not having made a preliminary look into what they had purchased tickets to hear. That incident also makes me recall my favorite Charles Ives retort to some young man attending a recital with one of Ives' violin sonatas on the program. The fellow in the audience was seated near Ives, and started a loud fuss and a bit of a heckle about the music. Ives leaned into that fellow's face and said, "Stop being such a musical sissy." (Love it....) Musical sissies there are, and their votes don't count much with me. They clearly didn't count with Ashkenazy or his players


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## Jaws

I have left at an interval. It was a local amateur orchestra, Strauss oboe concerto with a very well know professional soloist was in the 1st half. The orchestral accompaniment to the concerto was so badly played that at times it was unrecognisable. The second half contained a Dvorak symphony. I like Dvorak. I just couldn't bear the thought of what that orchestra might do to Dvorak.


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## mleghorn

People do that here in Chicago too. I have no problem with people leaving concerts early. It's their decision to make. It has the added value of providing honest feedback about the performance and / or music -- which to me is better than everyone pretending they all like it. Whether you agree with that feedback is another matter, but it's good to know the state of public tastes.


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## MaestroViolinist

Have I already replied to this thread? I dunno, forgotten.

Anyway, at my last eisteddfod there was this ensemble. And... oh... Was it horrible! I was embarrassed *for* them! I don't think they had practiced at all. And if they had, well, they needed someone with them to tell them whether they were in tune or not. Now I was not so rude as to walk out, but my sister and I were talking whilst they were playing, not very loudly though. A few other people (who had been quiet when other people had been playing) were also talking. We all got a talking to by the adjudicator when they had finished!  But seriously, it was bad.


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## Sid James

The people I'm talking about most likely dont' leave because the playing is bad, but because they think music after say 1900 is bad.


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## starthrower

^^^^^^^^^^
Less coughing and fidgeting for the people who stay!


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## Jaws

I like community orchestra concerts. During the concert it is nearly always light enough for me to read a book. So if I go to one to support a player I know and I can't stand the noise, I always have a gripping story book with me so that I can concentrate on that and stop listening. The problem in the concert that I left at half time was that I had forgotten to take a book, and I had read the programme notes several times in the overture.


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## Sid James

starthrower said:


> ^^^^^^^^^^
> Less coughing and fidgeting for the people who stay!


Or better seats, as I said, people further to the back are moved closer to the front to take the places of the people who leave. So yeah, good for those who stay, but bad for the musicians who see the hall much emptier than before the interval . Maybe they should do as they're told by implication of these ignorant people, just play wigs and the three B's with a smattering of _acceptable_ later composers, eg. Tchaikovsky and Dvorak are _acceptable_, but Mahler or Bruckner are not. Even 20th century composers like R. Strauss who basically where Romantic with a Modern veneer, they're _unacceptable _too. What wierd _logic_ these people have, honestly.


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## PlaySalieri

I am with the walkers - if you have paid and don't like it - life is precious - get out!


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## Sid James

stomanek said:


> I am with the walkers - if you have paid and don't like it - life is precious - get out!


Well all good, but what have you got to lose by listening to say a symphony by Mahler or Shostakovich? I'd say you have to gain. Live music is an experience. I have known people to not like these but sit through it, at least experience it and give it a fair chance. I respect those people more than those who I think prejudge and don't even listen. Not to mention, what I have babbled on about for ages here, it's because of these limited people we get the same things all the time. Well, they get the same thing. I 'voted with my feet' a while back, I no longer attend concerts here by flagship groups (or not many, unless as a one-off type thing), as they have deserted the middle ground, they are now mainly catering to the hard core conservatives with tired 'bums on seats' programming which even some in my parents generation think is just boring. Anyway, I won't rant anymore, I've wasted my time here day in day out.


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## Jaws

The problem is that if a concert programme isn't economically viable because there are going to be only a few seats sold, in order to play an unpopular programme the subsidy will need to be increased. Who is going to pay the subsidy?


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## Vaneyes

Expect anything at public or private gatherings, and you shall not be disappointed. I borrow that philosophy from the game of golf, when one is engaged in Match Play aka Mano o Mano. Expect your opponent to do anything, and you won't be surprised.

I've heard Bartok booed in concert, and I've had opponents attempting to cheat in golf. It's a far safer world for me because of this philosophy. Thank you for your attention to this matter. Sincerely.


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## Sid James

Jaws said:


> The problem is that if a concert programme isn't economically viable because there are going to be only a few seats sold, in order to play an unpopular programme the subsidy will need to be increased. Who is going to pay the subsidy?


In the ones I saw this happen, one-third of the audience before interval left during interval. So two-thirds stay, which is the majority. I don't know if there's ever been a case of a half or more leaving.

Economic viability is another issue. Fact is, I know a lot (if not most?) orchestras in the USA are in the red, they are over budget. They are supposed to be developing things for the future on the back of subscriptions and sponsorships (government money is constant and this funding is always decreasing or remaining static/stagnant). But they use this money to pay things that should have been paid say five years ago. They are living on borrowed time. No wonder a number of USA orchestras folded after the Global Financial Crisis in 2009. But this is another issue, beyond this thread. I am currently reading a book that goes into this in quite a bit of detail. If you think orchestras are doing well, even with the most conservative programming, think again. Well, in the USA at least, I would not hold orchestras up as a shining example of sound economic managament of business. There's been a lot of waste in the classical music industry (the astronomical and unsustainable salaries of big name conductors for a start, but I won't go there, I just won't, not for now at least).


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## samurai

@ Sid, Is that a Manx cat now serving as your avatar? Way cool ,dude!


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## Sid James

samurai said:


> @ Sid, Is that a Manx cat now serving as your avatar? Way cool ,dude!


It's one of the "rex" breeds of cat. They look less wierd in real life than on that photo, but they still are quite different.


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## Janspe

I went to a concert once, with Rachmaninoff's fourth piano concerto programmed in the first half, and a Sibelius symphony (#5, I think ... ?) in the second. I left during the intermission. The reason I came to the concert was to hear the Rach #4 - one of my favourite pieces, but unfortunately very seldom played live - and that's what I got.

Had the order of the pieces been different, I would've stayed for the whole concert. I have no problem with listening to unfamiliar pieces - yes, I'm a Finnish person and I have never ever heard a single Sibelius symphony in my life! - if there's something I like coming up next. But for me, sitting through a whole unfamiliar symphony after the excitement of the concerto/piece I wanted to hear is a bit of a lame ending. 

I think I, as a concertgoer, have the right to choose which pieces I want to hear. After all, I'm the one paying for the ticket! It's not my problem that there aren't individual concerts for each piece - that would certainly make choosing a lot easier. 

I don't like the idea of leaving during the performance itself, though. I think it's just plain rude, as it can distract the listeners and performers.


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## moody

Cetainly you may leave--but not during the performance. I've done it twice and it's my prerogative.
I've probably "done" this thread already,the reason that people are digging up the carcasses of old threads is that most of the new ones are so pitiful---lists and polls and such nonsense.,


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## Ebab

A concert evening is more than the sum of individual pieces; that's one of the things that can make live concerts exciting. Selecting the program for a concert is an artistic choice, which I see as an offer. I pay for the concert, but unless I'm open, will miss much of what I could get back. And I don't see how being displeased/bored with one piece would overshadow my enjoyment of another. Unless I have a _really_ compelling reason, I stay and listen.


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## Delicious Manager

Janspe said:


> I went to a concert once, with Rachmaninoff's fourth piano concerto programmed in the first half, and a Sibelius symphony (#5, I think ... ?) in the second. I left during the intermission. The reason I came to the concert was to hear the Rach #4 - one of my favourite pieces, but unfortunately very seldom played live - and that's what I got.
> 
> Had the order of the pieces been different, I would've stayed for the whole concert. I have no problem with listening to unfamiliar pieces - yes, I'm a Finnish person and I have never ever heard a single Sibelius symphony in my life! - if there's something I like coming up next. But for me, sitting through a whole unfamiliar symphony after the excitement of the concerto/piece I wanted to hear is a bit of a lame ending.
> 
> I think I, as a concertgoer, have the right to choose which pieces I want to hear. After all, I'm the one paying for the ticket! It's not my problem that there aren't individual concerts for each piece - that would certainly make choosing a lot easier.
> 
> I don't like the idea of leaving during the performance itself, though. I think it's just plain rude, as it can distract the listeners and performers.


Your post has left me aghast. Sentences like "I would've stayed for the whole concert.... if there's something I like coming up next." simply make my blood boil. You also contradict yourself with two statements "I have no problem with listening to unfamiliar pieces" and "But for me, sitting through a whole unfamiliar symphony after the excitement of the concerto/piece I wanted to hear is a bit of a lame ending." Every single piece you 'like', you heard for the first time and so to say that listening to Sibelius's 5th Symphony would be "a lame ending" is a statement borne of pure ignorance. People like me, who programme and promote concerts, suffer a never-ending battle with such closed-minded and lazy attitudes and, as a cumulative effect, this has a terrible impact on the quality of concert programming worldwide because too many people are afraid to listen to something they don't know (yet something they might land up liking immensely), causing too many programmers to opt for 'safe' programmes of popular pieces, leaving people hungry for new experiences wanting.

Rant over.


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## Janspe

Delicious Manager said:


> Rant over.


Keep on ranting, I think this topic is very interesting!

I don't think I contradicted myself in my previous post. My point was that I have no problem listening to unfamiliar pieces _if_ the (for me) main attraction is still coming, whereas a concert where I have to sit through a long, unknown piece for "dessert" usually - no, always, bores me to death. That's how my brain works and I can't help it - I can almost never enjoy a piece the first time I hear it. Maybe I have low IQ or something. 

During that same Rachmaninoff/Sibelius concert there was a short opening piece by Schoenberg, and I listened to it with moderate interest - which was a huge feat for my part, as back then I was the worst anti-Schoenberg activist in the world. Not anymore, I must add - I love his music!  But I was able to remain attentive as I knew that the concerto I had come for was still coming up.

Please note that I do _not_ want to fill concerts with jaded warhorses, not at all! On the contrary, I love when orchestras and chamber ensembles etc. play works that aren't that often in the programmes. I just want to defend my right, as an individual concertgoer + ticket buyer, to choose whether I want to listen to the whole programme or not.

And I want to emphasize that I _love_ exploring new and unfamiliar pieces - just today I've been listening to a lot of Ives' music (symphonies and sonatas) in sudden gush of curiosity towards his works. I just don't like doing that at a live concert. So if I want to go to a concert and get my Rach #4 eargasms, I don't want to "ruin" that feeling by exposing by brain to unfamiliar music afterwards. I want to leave the venue completely _bursting_ with adrenaline!

Of course one can familiarize oneself with the music beforehand, but sometimes I end up going to concerts without properly preparing myself.



> --- too many people are afraid to listen to something they don't know (yet something they might land up liking immensely)


True. I usually end up loving pretty much every piece that made me bored during the first hearing.


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## realdealblues

I've only been able to go to the Symphony about 20 times. I've never seen anyone leave in the middle of a performance and not come back.

Leaving during an intermission or something though I could easily see. I've never attended a classical concert where they were playing something I didn't wanted to hear. But I'm sure it's possible if they were playing one work that I loved and another I didn't care for. Of course a lot of the time it's a Mahler Symphony I'm going to see and there's nothing else on the card due to their length. 

But, I've been to several hundred rock concerts in my life and have left early or come late because I liked one band but not another. I did after all pay for the ticket.


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## Feathers

I can't really imagine a situation in which I would feel a need to leave during a concert, unless it's a medical emergency. I would categorize the concerts I've been to into two loose categories. The first category is concerts that I CHOSE to buy tickets for and WILLINGLY attended, knowing what pieces would be performed. I'm not a super harsh music critic, so it can't sound that bad to my ears. The second is relatively more informal concerts where my friends or acquaintances are performing. In that case, it's great when I do enjoy the music, but if not, that's okay too and I'd never leave in the middle.


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## apricissimus

I was once _really_ tempted to leave in the middle of a production of Berlioz's _Romeo and Juliet_. If I were by myself I would have. But I was with a friend who was new to classical music and to opera. I kept suggesting that we could leave if she wanted (I figured she probably wasn't enjoying herself either). But she didn't get my hints and hung in there like a trooper, probably thinking that I would have wanted to stay to see the whole thing.

It was just a bad production, and long, and boring.


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## bassClef

My wife had to leave during a performance in Prague a couple of years back. She was suppressing her natural instinct to cough but had to hold it in until it got almost painful, and she found it hard to breathe - she couldn't even wait for the interval. She said it was something about the pressure of not coughing that made her think she really needed to - though I did explain that coughing is almost expected in most concerts! She did miss a superb performance of Fibich's 3rd though.

After that I just went to further concerts in Prague on my own


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## hreichgott

I had to leave a really, really good performance a few months ago on account of a severe cough (tail end of a cold). I was so upset about missing the rest of the performance!

As a musician I of course take it personally if someone leaves while I'm playing -- but -- I also believe that performance is all about the audience. If they aren't getting what they want from the performance, why should they stay? Is performance for the purpose of making the audience suffer in the hope that it will better them in some way?? Personally I'm just glad that there ARE people who choose classical music for their entertainment and enjoy being entertained by things more complex and interesting than action movies and mindless pop.

The trick is giving the audience a balance between the pleasure of discovering something new and the pleasure of enjoying something familiar. We don't always get it right.


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## Lukecash12

I don't take it personally at all. People have their tastes and no music lasts any longer than it will. Someday basically all of the "art music snobs" will look at our own "music snob art music" and it won't pique their interest at all. And they will be walking out on performances as well, or I guess at that point they will just mentally "tune out".


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## pianississimo

I'm a rugby (league) fan and it's a rule for fans that you never leave before the end. It's a loyalty thing. It's just not done. Some people do it but they aren't proper fans unless they see their team decimated and still stay until the final whistle.

This is different. I'm just amazed that you'd book tickets for a concert that you didn't want to hear. If half of it is so bad that you can't stay for it then why bother at all? Is any of the music you'll hear so bad that you can't get something out of it?

And walking out of an Ashkenazy concert is madness. I get excited for weeks before his concerts and it would be unthinkable to miss any of it!! As for Perlman, I'd dearly love to hear him live in concert and I would stay and listen to him warm up if I was allowed!!

I get annoyed when people leave before the final bow!! I just want to run and grab people and ask them if it's really that important to be first out of the car-park!


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## Bulldog

Since I pay for an entire concert, I never leave until it's over.


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## pianississimo

Bulldog said:


> Since I pay for an entire concert, I never leave until it's over.


Right! Especially when you have to pay full price!!


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I would leave if there's a fire, a bomb threat, a shooting or something like that. If there's a work I really hate, or a work I really love that is played abysmally I would stay. Leaving during a concert is for people selfish enough to think their time is more important that the amount of time it took to prepare the concert (including the composition of the music).


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## bharbeke

I once got a year's subscription to the symphony. One of the pieces was a Mass in A minor. I gave it a fair try, but it was doing absolutely nothing for me. I left during the middle of it as politely as possible, and I felt that I got more value for my time than I would have sitting through the remainder of the piece. People have bathroom and coughing emergencies at concert events, and my leaving early had the same impact on the people in my aisle as one of those would have.

I don't advocate leaving early from concerts, but there are times when it is the best thing to do.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

What is a fair try according to you? For me, a fair try would be listening to a piece in its entirety.......


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## Bulldog

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> What is a fair try according to you? For me, a fair try would be listening to a piece in its entirety.......


I'd just like to add that a "fair try" is listening to a work in its entirety at least a few times.


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## papsrus

Well, the above gets to the heart of the matter: What is required of an audience member when "going to a concert?"

Is anything required? Is it enough to plop yourself down in your seat, sit back and say, "I'm here, entertain me?"

Not speaking as a performer myself, but I'm confident (or hopeful, at least) that more often than not performers can sense when an audience is engaged in their performance. And they can probably tell when an audience is not (walking out mid-concert is a big clue).

When concerts are described with superlatives such as "magical," "enchanting," "sublime" it almost certainly isn't because the listener(s) sat back and passively waited to be entertained. More likely it has something to do with the audience collectively leaning forward (figuratively, if you like) and actively engaging with the music on some level. The act of listening.

Even a 10-year-old child playing the piano at a school recital can be "magical," if the listener engages in the performance. Or it can be ... less than magical ... if the listener sits back and decides "this isn't entertaining at all."

The listener / audience has _some_ responsibility in this whole deal, too. To simply say, "Eh, I don't like this, I'm leaving," is not only short-changing the performers, it's short-changing yourself.

But I gotta go. I'm running late again.

('scuse me, padun, padun ... whooosh)


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## bharbeke

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> What is a fair try according to you? For me, a fair try would be listening to a piece in its entirety.......


In that particular case, I think it was sometime during the "Alleluia" that I left. I sat through a very long "Gloria" which was not at all to my liking. Vocal and choral music are not my usual cup of tea anyway, but I do like certain pieces, so I wanted to see what the style was like for this Mass. If I were redoing the evening, either I would have listened to the piece online first to get proper expectations, or I would have left at the intermission. I agree with the points being made that concertgoers should be respectful of their fellow audience members and the performers. However, if continuing to sit there will just cause me to steam up inside, that does absolutely nothing for me and may still be noticed by those around me. There's something to be said for not being a buzzkill for others, too.


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## Albert7

For me it is all right if a person leaves before the concert. They paid for it and if they don't want to finish it that is their choice.

Plus I can grab the seat if it is empty... And no one else wants it.


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## breakup

I have only had this impulse a few times, usually if I choose to go to see something I am familiar with the piece and the performers, and their isn't a problem. However, I had gone to see JCS right after it was off Broadway with most of the original cast and the original production, a few years later I went to see it again. But this was just after Elvis had died and the producer saw fit to pay tribute by portraying Herod as an Elvis character. I almost left. 

One other time was at the remake of Hitchhikers Guide and my most common comment was "Where did that come from" to parts of the movie that had no relation to the book. My daughter had to keep shushing me when I said it out loud.


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## Albert7

I never leave movies either. Only one I hated was Battlefield Earth. It would have been better as an opera by Puccini.


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## Lord Lance

Sid James said:


> In a performance earlier this year here of Mahler's _Symphony #9_, quite a number of audience members evidently not happy with what they were hearing actually left during the symphony (there was a mass walk out in a break between the movements). The conductor, Maestro Vladimir Ashkenazy, gave them an ironic wave goodbye. His body language was apparently more like "good riddance."


Not this performance, I hope?


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## breakup

It should be remembered that some people go to an Opera or Symphony to be seen, not because of the performance. Once they have arrived, and been seen, they can make a grand exit, and be seen again. I'm not sure how leaving in the middle of a performance can be seen as a good thing, but I'm sure they have their rational.


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## perempe

I left Rachmaninoff's Symphony No. 2 after the 3rd movement in Miskolc a month ago. (I had to catch the last train.)

unfortunately I can not attend concerts in Miskolc anymore after the new train schedule.


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## Gordontrek

Not with my local symphony; they play the new stuff first, and then in the second half finish with a big dollop of Brahms or Tchaikovsky or Dvorak. 
One amusing story: one time, the great banjo player Bela Fleck came to perform his own BANJO CONCERTO with the local symphony. Holy cow. Now I live in Alabama, y'all, and just think what would happen if a supposedly "world-class banjo player" came to town. I was an usher for this concert, and I've never seen the like. More plaid shirt/blue jeans/brown leather boots folks than you can shake a stick at. One guy even came in packing, and we had to politely ask him to leave his firearm in his vehicle....:lol: :lol:
Anyway, these people came to hear what we call "toe-tappin'" music. It was nothing of the sort. It was a true piece of modern classical music, designed to exploit the classical possibilities of the banjo.  It wasn't bad, really, but wasn't exactly groundbreaking either.
Anyway, one guy pretty much flew into a rage before it was over. Got up, slammed his program down on his seat, then stormed out. Before the last movement began, an old guy sitting just to the left of me turned to his wife and in his deep gravelly voice said, "I'm disappointed." 
To make it up he played a brief bluegrass encore which earned him a nice ovation, as well as some whoops and hollers.


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