# Orchestra layout



## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

Could anyone explain why the violins are put on the left of the conductor and cellos/bass is on the right, the woodwinds are in front of the brass. Is the current layout of an orchestra determined by some traditions?


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

pcnog11 said:


> Could anyone explain why the violins are put on the left of the conductor and cellos/bass is on the right, the woodwinds are in front of the brass. Is the current layout of an orchestra determined by some traditions?


Good question, for sure...there are some pretty basic acoustical reasons for common orchestra layouts...First Violins, and often 2nd violins, go on the conductor's left - the tone holes, the "F" holes of the instruments are then facing the audience, and the sound projects out into the hall. most often, at present - the 2nd violins are placed on the same side, inside of the firsts, this provides a 'mass' of violin sound from the left side....in the past, and now sometimes at present - the 2nds are placed to the conductor's right - this provides a marked separation of firsts and seconds, a physical "stereo" effect of divided violin sections...
the woodwinds are placed in front of the brass, closer to the front of the stage projects better. sometimes they are placed on risers, which provides more projection, and better sightlines. It is important that the principal woodwinds are seated in a box pattern - fl/ob in front row, Clar/bssn in 2nd row...conductors sometimes try other arrangements - but in my long performing experience, these alternative layouts do not produce the best results for balance and ensemble. 
The brass and percussion, as the loudest sections, are placed behind the woodwinds and the strings - again, often on risers...usually the first trumpet and trombone will be next to each other, bass trombone /tuba in close proximity..the horns are placed in a variety of positions - but the first will be on the right - the rest of the section "down bell" from the principal...the entire section needs to hear the principal.

these are just basic concepts - all sorts of different layouts have been tried over the years - Stokowski experimented endlessly with this. Composers will sometimes specify a particular layout as well - ie Corigliano Sym #1 is one example - 
Berlioz, Verdi and Mahler also specified "off-stage" set-ups for solo or ensemble instruments. then, of course, composers like Ives and Henry Brant really got into spatial effects


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

The division of the first & second violins on the left and right often makes audible sense in 19th century music where there is an antiphonal effect that becomes much clearer that way. Here is an interesting video in which Herbert Blomstedt makes a good case for splitting them...






It should also be noted conductors will sometimes choose to put the double basses behind the violins to provide a similar division with the celli.

In the case of keeping the violins together, there is no agreement about how to group the violas and celli. Some orchestras put the violas on the right with the celli more in the middle (e.g. Berlin when the violins aren't split), and others reverse that (e.g. Chicago.)


----------



## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Becca said:


> The division of the first & second violins on the left and right often makes audible sense in 19th century music where there is an antiphonal effect that becomes much clearer that way. Here is an interesting video in which Herbert Blomstedt makes a good case for splitting them...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for answering my question. Looking in the books, they say an orchestra is seated in a certain way and I thought that had to be, so confused when going to concerts and found the positions are different!


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Judith said:


> Thank you for answering my question. Looking in the books, they say an orchestra is seated in a certain way and I thought that had to be, so confused when going to concerts and found the positions are different!


Yes, there will be variations, but there are certain general concepts which will prevail...usually, the celli and basses are set near each other - they play together often, and it is quite crucial that the lower sections of the orchestra can hear each other to maintain proper intonation..that of course, goes for all sections...


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Heck148 said:


> Yes, there will be variations, but there are certain general concepts which will prevail...usually, the celli and basses are set near each other - they play together often, and it is quite crucial that the lower sections of the orchestra can hear each other to maintain proper intonation..that of course, goes for all sections...


That is usually but, in my experience, not true more than about 2/3 of the time. Just last night I was watching a Leipzig/Brahms concert in which the arrangement was (left to right) double basses, 1st violins, violas, celli, 2nd violins, and it was quite effective. In a video about doing a Beethoven cycle, Simon Rattle talked about having had a suggestion, which he did in concert, of putting the double basses at the back of the orchestra in one of the symphonies. Unfortunately I don't remember which one.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Judith said:


> Thank you for answering my question. Looking in the books, they say an orchestra is seated in a certain way and I thought that had to be, so confused when going to concerts and found the positions are different!


It depends on the particular concert hall, the repertoire and the whims of the conductor. Some conductors have a preference for specific arrangements whilst others will change it depending on the particular program. At the extreme end is the Berlin Konzerthaus orchestra's Mittendrin series in which all of the seats in the hall are removed, the conductors podium is put in the middle of the hall and the orchestra is arrayed all around him with the audience interspersed throughout the orchestra!


----------



## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

Thank for the replies, interesting comments. Good education.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

While the brass is usually grouped together, it isn't unusual for the horns to be separated from the rest. The most unusual that I have seen was a recent Chicago Symphony/Riccardo Muti/Bruckner 7th concert in Chicago's Orchestra Hall where the horns were rear left (common) but the Wagner tubas, which are played by the members of the horn section and which have a prominent part in the slow movement, were placed between the violins and violas rather than with the horns!


----------



## AClockworkOrange (May 24, 2012)

Becca said:


> The division of the first & second violins on the left and right often makes audible sense in 19th century music where there is an antiphonal effect that becomes much clearer that way. Here is an interesting video in which Herbert Blomstedt makes a good case for splitting them...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing that video Becca, along with your comments it was very interesting :tiphat:


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Becca said:


> While the brass is usually grouped together, it isn't unusual for the horns to be separated from the rest. The most unusual that I have seen was a recent Chicago Symphony/Riccardo Muti/Bruckner 7th concert in Chicago's Orchestra Hall where the horns were rear left (common) but the Wagner tubas, which are played by the members of the horn section and which have a prominent part in the slow movement, were placed between the violins and violas rather than with the horns!


Interesting - last June I heard Muti/CSO perform Bruckner #9 live at Orchestra Hall...the horns/Wagner tubas were behind the woodwinds, strung out in a line across the stage. The Wagner Tubas almost have to be with the horns, since horn players V-VIII play the Wagner tubas. at times they play horns, as well, they 2ble. the section needs to be together.


----------



## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

For further scholarship...


----------

