# Would Beethoven Like Romanticism or Modernism more?



## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

And who would you think would be some of his favorite Composers? I think he would prefer Romanticism. Dvorak and Brahms I would guess would be his favorites.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

I think BEETHOVEN would like METAL because METAL has the POWER that drives beethoven it comes from the HEART and it express your EMOTIONS like his music BEETHOVEN is the first METAL with VIVALDI they lived today they would play METAL because BEETHOVEN was like METAL OF 19 century


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

And Paganini would be a guitar shredder if living in 1980's. Aka Yngwie.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Who knows? One thing's for sure. He would quickly absorb each style and write masterpieces in each.


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

Have you heard grosse fuge? He would be totally into modernism


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

neoshredder said:


> And who would you think would be some of his favorite Composers? I think he would prefer Romanticism. Dvorak and Brahms I would guess would be his favorites.


There must be a name for the fallacy underlying this kind of question but I don't know it. Any philosophers out there? It's like when someone says: "If I were you, I would do this." What they really mean is: "If you were me, you would do this." Said the first way, it isn't obvious that the statement is nonsensical. When stated the second way, however, it is perfectly clear that it is not only nonsense, but arrogant nonsense.

A Beethoven with enough comprehension of Romanticism and modernism to make a judgment would not be Beethoven. He would be some strange reactionary being who knew all of this music and still wrote like an early nineteenth century composer. Beethoven isn't transportable through time. He is an era specific entity. When one tries to take him out of time like this, one is merely creating an avatar for ones own opinions and pasting Beethoven's name under it.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

I think Beethoven would have taken a paternal interest in the progress of Schubert, and have been gratified by the uses later Romantic composers made of his own music. I'd be most interested to see him in a room alone with Stravinsky, though: they'd probably have liked and respected each other, and have had many fascinating conversations. Or maybe they'd have killed each other like two lions in one den.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I believe Beethoven would have been fascinated with Stravinsky and Bartok. He would have quickly absorbed their styles and created masterpieces in those styles that Stravinsky and Bartok could only dream of.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

This inquiry has the effect of trivializing the labels (Romanticism & Modernism that is). The terms would make little sense to Beethoven - particularly Modernism - applied to music. All of the 'isms' I know of have a for-its-own-sake sentiment attached.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

hpowders said:


> I believe Beethoven would have been fascinated with Stravinsky and Bartok. He would have quickly absorbed their styles and created masterpieces in those styles that Stravinsky and Bartok could only dream of.


I see the "h" in your name stands for _hyperbole_.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

I personally think that if Beethoven had lived to be 150 he would've become stodgy and conservative and would complain bitterly to anybody who would listen about "these modern atonal noisemakers, boy am I glad I don't have listen to that! There's no melody and the dissonance is horrible, and back in my day blah blah blah blah blah..."


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

I've got it. If the fallacy isn't already cataloged, how about: the Identity Transposition Fallacy?


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

EdwardBast said:


> I've got it. If the fallacy isn't already cataloged, how about: the Identity Transposition Fallacy?


Too general; need to get Temporal or Era in there somewhere.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

ahammel said:


> I personally think that if Beethoven had lived to be 150 he would've become stodgy and conservative and would complain bitterly to anybody who would listen about "these modern atonal noisemakers, boy am I glad I don't have listen to that! There's no melody and the dissonance is horrible, and back in my day blah blah blah blah blah..."


I like this answer. Considering his degenerative hearing loss and his proclivity for relations with prostitutes, however, he would almost certainly be deaf as a post and his brain swiss-cheesed with syphilis.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

How about young Beethoven then.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

neoshredder said:


> How about young Beethoven then.


How about him? Would he have understood Wagner and Bartók and Schoenberg? I doubt it. He probably would've been just as perplexed as Palestrina would be if the Doctor dropped him off at a performance of the _Grosse Fuge_.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

See above, the Identity Transposition Fallacy, or, in deference to Ukko, the Temporal Identity Transposition (TIT) Fallacy.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Being deaf, Beethoven wouldn't have listened to any of this stuff. And being dead, he wouldn't bother with the scores.


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## AmateurComposer (Sep 13, 2009)

Blancrocher said:


> I think Beethoven would have taken a paternal interest in the progress of Schubert


Beethoven was not aware of Schubert and Schubert's work, even though both lived in the same city at the same time, until he was on his death bed. At that time, according to Beethoven's attendent, the attendent brought him a large number of Schubert's compositions in order to distract him from his suffering. Being at first amazed at the quantity, Beethoven expressed very high opinion about the quality of Schubert's music after he read the scores.

Since Beethoven did not suvive this last sickness, there is no way of confirming his attendent's report.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

starthrower said:


> Being deaf, Beethoven wouldn't have listened to any of this stuff. And being dead, he wouldn't bother with the scores.


On the contrary, I think he would have listened to 4'33'' over and over again. Unless he found out about all the nasty things John Cage said about him, of course.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

If young Beethoven were alive today, he'd play punk rock.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

AmateurComposer said:


> Since Beethoven did not suvive this last sickness, there is no way of confirming his attendent's report.


"Truly, a divine spark dwells in Schubert!" (Said to Schindler when the latter made him acquainted with the "Songs of Ossian," "Die Junge Nonne," "Die Burgschaft," of Schubert's "Grenzen der Menschheit," and other songs.)

Unfortunately, Schindler's statements are no longer relied on without some other confirmation.


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2013)

Ukko said:


> This inquiry has the effect of trivializing....


Yes. That happens a lot.

And even if it were possible to know what a person now dead would have thought about events that happened after he or she had died, what would we gain by that?

Beethoven was one guy. He had opinions. Some of those opinions we know. The ones we don't know we can only guess about. And whether those guesses are good or bad, they are never anything other than guesses. Well, OK. They are something other than guesses. They are thinly disguised attempts to justify our own opinions.

There are better ways to justify opinions.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

Well, if no one spoke of trivial matters, this would be quite a silent world. Mmm, a beautiful thought. Although sometimes it's fun to play stupid. We know it's meaningless, but we do it anyway.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Yeah, I was disappointed by Walter Savage Landor's "Imaginary Conversations" too, some guy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginary_Conversations


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

If Beethoven all of a sudden became alive today, the first thing he would do is enroll in the Wall Street Journal's Wine of the Month Club.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

EdwardBast said:


> See above, the Identity Transposition Fallacy, or, in deference to Ukko, the Temporal Identity Transposition (TIT) Fallacy.


Hah. No deference called for. The TIT Fallacy has always been with us, I think. One of my childhood friends was an enthusiastic woodsman, whom I long felt was born a century too late. But he would probably have died young of leukemia anyway, without the remission and with more discomfort.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

EdwardBast said:


> There must be a name for the fallacy underlying this kind of question but I don't know it. Any philosophers out there? It's like when someone says: "If I were you, I would do this." What they really mean is: "If you were me, you would do this." Said the first way, it isn't obvious that the statement is nonsensical. When stated the second way, however, it is perfectly clear that it is not only nonsense, but arrogant nonsense.
> 
> A Beethoven with enough comprehension of Romanticism and modernism to make a judgment would not be Beethoven. He would be some strange reactionary being who knew all of this music and still wrote like an early nineteenth century composer. Beethoven isn't transportable through time. He is an era specific entity. When one tries to take him out of time like this, one is merely creating an avatar for ones own opinions and pasting Beethoven's name under it.


Very well said! :clap:


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

That's not what this thread is about. If Beethoven by some miracle would be resurrected from the dead and he immersed himself in future musical styles in vogue after his death, which one(s) would he gravitate toward? Of course, it's purely hypothetical. Just something to bandy about.


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2013)

This thread is exactly about that. Putting Beethoven's name on one's own opinions.

There are plenty of things to talk about, really. (Non-trivial things, too, Vesuvius.)

In the meantime, however, if I were transported to 3014, what would I use to watch youtube videos about cats?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

It's just fun to hypothesize. I find it incredible that anyone posting here would take this thread so seriously!
I've enjoyed reading many of these opinions.
Some folks really need to lighten up a bit!


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Yep this was supposed to be a fun thread. But then I get blasted for it.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

neoshredder said:


> Yep this was supposed to be a fun thread. But then I get blasted for it.


How we suffer for Art!!


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

I have just returned from my time travels. I went back to 1810 to meet Beethoven and took with me sheet music of much 20th century piano work. Messiaen, Cage, Ligeti, Boulez, Stockhausen, Bartok, Prokofiev and others.
He looked over the scores for many hours. I told him about the invention of recording technology and that in my time people could purchase recordings of all of this music and that of earlier eras.
He thought that was amazing and that most of those scores were however, beyond his comprehension.
"Tell me" he said,"out of all this music what do pianists and listeners in your time favour the most?"
"Actually, by and large, your stuff Herr Beethoven" I replied.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Petwhac said:


> I have just returned from my time travels. I went back to 1810 to meet Beethoven and took with me sheet music of much 20th century piano work. Messiaen, Cage, Ligeti, Boulez, Stockhausen, Bartok, Prokofiev and others.
> He looked over the scores for many hours. I told him about the invention of recording technology and that in my time people could purchase recordings of all of this music and that of earlier eras.
> He thought that was amazing and that most of those scores were however, beyond his comprehension.
> "Tell me" he said,"out of all this music what do pianists and listeners in your time favour the most?"
> "Actually, by and large, your stuff Herr Beethoven" I replied.


Actually, it would be the likes of Lil Wayne or Lady Gaga that listeners of our time enjoy the most. You better tell Beethoven that before he gets too big of a head. Although, you might cause him to weep profusely.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

That's it, Petwhac? Please continue!!


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

edwardbast said:


> there must be a name for the fallacy underlying this kind of question but i don't know it. Any philosophers out there? It's like when someone says: "if i were you, i would do this." what they really mean is: "if you were me, you would do this." said the first way, it isn't obvious that the statement is nonsensical. When stated the second way, however, it is perfectly clear that it is not only nonsense, but arrogant nonsense.
> 
> A beethoven with enough comprehension of romanticism and modernism to make a judgment would not be beethoven. He would be some strange reactionary being who knew all of this music and still wrote like an early nineteenth century composer. Beethoven isn't transportable through time. He is an era specific entity. When one tries to take him out of time like this, one is merely creating an avatar for ones own opinions and pasting beethoven's name under it.


_*Bravissimo!*_ ...............

P.s. Might I suggest "Narcissistic Transference" ?)


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Petwhac said:


> He thought that was amazing and that most of those scores were however, beyond his comprehension.
> "Tell me" he said,"out of all this music what do pianists and listeners in your time favour the most?"
> "Actually, by and large, your stuff Herr Beethoven" I replied.


Well, then you can show him Debussy and Ravel....


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Well I guess since the hypothetical question didn't work. How about I change it to include the passionate Beethoven fans. To those who would consider themselves that, which Era do you prefer as well as which Composers from both Eras?


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

neoshredder said:


> Well I guess since the hypothetical question didn't work. How about I change it to include the passionate Beethoven fans. To those who would consider themselves that, which Era do you prefer as well as which Composers from both Eras?


That might just add more from both camps -- those who think the Q ridiculous, and those who think it is cool to make an analogy between Luigi's music and Heavy Metal -- imho, equally ridiculous.

... and I am a fan of Ludwig van.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Beethoven is one of the favorite Composers in the metal community though.  Maybe they get carried away in thinking he would be a metal head in this generation. Oh well. Btw I consider myself a casual fan. So I don't think I would count for my preference.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Any later composer who sounded like Handel? Beethoven would have loved that.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

*...memoirs of a time traveller continued........*



violadude said:


> Actually, it would be the likes of Lil Wayne or Lady Gaga that listeners of our time enjoy the most. You better tell Beethoven that before he gets too big of a head. Although, you might cause him to weep profusely.


Beethoven asked me "So the Nobility still have an appetite for my music, but what of the common man? What do the peasants and ordinary town folk dance to and sing along to in the taverns?"

" Well, Herr Beethoven, or may I call you Ludo?" he nodded his approval. "Well Ludo", I continued, "You know the Lieder and Arias you have written? The people like to sing along with things like that only usually they are accompanied by very loud percussion such as bass drums and side drums and cymbals".

"Really?" said B. "Wouldn't that rather drown out the singer and pianist?" I tried to explain about electricity and amplification but I could see my companion beginning to grow weary. 
"You did not bring me any scores of these 'Lieder with percussion." I had to explain that because of the invention of recording, such music was seldom written down except in a very rudimentary form and certainly without the percussion parts.

Beethoven got up and scratched his head, "Oh well, what curious times there are ahead. There is one piece of music among the pile you brought me that I'd like to ask you about. It is this book of rudimentary arpeggios and scales of common triads in a very repetitive arrangement that go on for page after page. These are for beginners to practice their fingering, no?
"Oh that" I said. "That's Einaudi, how did that get in there?"


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2013)

EdwardBast said:


> There must be a name for the fallacy underlying this kind of question but I don't know it. Any philosophers out there? It's like when someone says: "If I were you, I would do this." What they really mean is: "If you were me, you would do this." Said the first way, it isn't obvious that the statement is nonsensical. When stated the second way, however, it is perfectly clear that it is not only nonsense, but arrogant nonsense.
> 
> A Beethoven with enough comprehension of Romanticism and modernism to make a judgment would not be Beethoven. He would be some strange reactionary being who knew all of this music and still wrote like an early nineteenth century composer. Beethoven isn't transportable through time. He is an era specific entity. When one tries to take him out of time like this, one is merely creating an avatar for ones own opinions and pasting Beethoven's name under it.


Harsh. I must say I'm amused by the idea of taking an 'era-specific' entity and setting him/her down into another era and wondering what might happen.

But then I thought _Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure_ was great fun too. I guess, Edward, you're not much into fun?

(BTW, did you mean 'arrogant' or 'arrant' which is the usual, if clichéd accompaniment to 'nonsense'?)


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Petwhac said:


> Beethoven asked me "So the Nobility still have an appetite for my music, but what of the common man? What do the peasants and ordinary town folk dance to and sing along to in the taverns?"


Huh? If anything, it's the "nobility" of today that funds most pop crap.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

violadude said:


> Huh? If anything, it's the "nobility" of today that funds most pop crap.


Gadzooks! Did I miss something in the news? _Americans with titles?_


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

This is quite simple, really. Beethoven was the most contemporary of composers of his time... Ergo, with all the time travel discounted out of it, his aesthetic sympathy, at least, would be with the contemporary -- the very most now (not 'the modern,' as that is already end-dated at 1975.)


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2013)

hpowders said:


> It's just fun to hypothesize.


Yeah, I agree. Have you seen very much of that, though? Not on this thread, you haven't.



hpowders said:


> Some folks really need to lighten up a bit!


Hahaha, this is one of my favorite "giveaways." With the one exception of parody, this advice is used _exclusively_ by those who are taking things way too seriously, so seriously, that they have to counsel their fellow travellers about how to behave. Truly, everyone who says this needs to lighten up a little.



hpowders said:


> I find it incredible that anyone posting here would take this thread so seriously!


I quite agree, but I suspect that we would marshal rather different evidence for our conclusion.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

MacLeod said:


> Harsh.


Possibly.



MacLeod said:


> I must say I'm amused by the idea of taking an 'era-specific' entity and setting him/her down into another era and wondering what might happen.


Twain, _A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court_. That was fun.



MacLeod said:


> But then I thought _Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure_ was great fun too. I guess, Edward, you're not much into fun?


What do you mean? I had fun!



MacLeod said:


> (BTW, did you mean 'arrogant' or 'arrant' which is the usual, if clichéd accompaniment to 'nonsense'?)


Will update my list of clichés. Most of the time I mean what I write.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

some guy said:


> Yeah, I agree. Have you seen very much of that, though? Not on this thread, you haven't.
> 
> Hahaha, this is one of my favorite "giveaways." With the one exception of parody, this advice is used _exclusively_ by those who are taking things way too seriously, so seriously, that they have to counsel their fellow travellers about how to behave. Truly, everyone who says this needs to lighten up a little.
> 
> I quite agree, but I suspect that we would marshal rather different evidence for our conclusion.


Maybe, but I enjoy reading "the results" anyway.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

some guy said:


> Yeah, I agree. Have you seen very much of that, though? Not on this thread, you haven't.
> 
> Hahaha, this is one of my favorite "giveaways." With the one exception of parody, this advice is used _exclusively_ by those who are taking things way too seriously, so seriously, that they have to counsel their fellow travellers about how to behave. Truly, everyone who says this needs to lighten up a little.
> 
> I quite agree, but I suspect that we would marshal rather different evidence for our conclusion.


Like I said already. This thread was supposed to be fun. It didn't turn out that way. Not my fault. But the fault of those who participated. I had a clear vision of all the fun stories this thread could've brought. I'll stop before I say something that gets me reported.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

neoshredder said:


> Like I said already. This thread was supposed to be fun. It didn't turn out that way. Not my fault. But the fault of those who participated. I had a clear vision of all the fun stories this thread could've brought. I'll stop before I say something that gets me reported.


Hey, friend, don't worry too much. I learned something from this thread, and it's that Beethoven knows I'm right.

Beethoven he knows me, and he knows I'm right.
I been talkin' to Beethoven all my life.


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## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

neoshredder said:


> Like I said already. This thread was supposed to be fun. It didn't turn out that way. Not my fault. But the fault of those who participated. I had a clear vision of all the fun stories this thread could've brought. I'll stop before I say something that gets me reported.


At least you've generated discussion. My "fun" Beethoven thread is sleeping with Luca Brasi.


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2013)

neoshredder said:


> Like I said already. This thread was supposed to be fun. It didn't turn out that way. Not my fault. But the fault of those who participated. I had a clear vision of all the fun stories this thread could've brought. I'll stop before I say something that gets me reported.


I've had fun, though. And I'm pretty sure some other people have had fun, too.

You were thinking maybe that we all of us could/would somehow magically produce your clear vision of all the fun stories? Only you are capable of doing that. Don't put something on us that is simply impossible. That's no fun!!

Anyway, I just want my fun to be counted as fun is all. Is that so wrong?


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

Even when I'm serious, I'm just playing around. Seriously.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Why are romanticism and modernism mutually exclusive here?

................................


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

Because exclusivity is the unspoken goal of many o' humans. Yet, the funny thing is, it requires you to continuously box yourself in. So, I hope the seekers aren't claustrophobic.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

BurningDesire said:


> Why are romanticism and modernism mutually exclusive here?


I dunno, that's sort of like a rib steak with fish sauce on it or such -- i.e. if anyone can make it palatable, good on them.

Schoenberg, Berg, and a bunch of others, the likes of which include Samuel Barber, and yea, even a later and dodecaphonic George Rochberg, etc. had no trouble with it.

Anyway, I've begun to catch a drift that beyond the mere academic meaning, 'romantic' is used in a very loosey-goosey way to mean anything from harmonically conservative (including near to extreme) to simply mean nothing more -- nor less --- specific than 'emotional,' or 'expressive,' whatever that is supposed to nail


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## AmateurComposer (Sep 13, 2009)

KenOC said:


> "Truly, a divine spark dwells in Schubert!" (Said to Schindler when the latter made him acquainted with the "Songs of Ossian," "Die Junge Nonne," "Die Burgschaft," of Schubert's "Grenzen der Menschheit," and other songs.)
> 
> Unfortunately, Schindler's statements are no longer relied on without some other confirmation.


It is up to you to believe or not believe the story. Only the two of them were there, and only one of them survived after the event to report it. What "some other confirmation" do you expect?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

AmateurComposer said:


> It is up to you to believe or not believe the story.


Read the Wiki entry on Schindler to get an idea of what's involved.


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## AmateurComposer (Sep 13, 2009)

KenOC said:


> Read the Wiki entry on Schindler to get an idea of what's involved.


I followed your advice and read the Wiki entry about Anton Felix Schindler. The title of the entry is "_Subsequent discredit and recent revival of credibility_"

I am not here to defend the reputation of Anton Schindler, but the report about the Beethoven's opinion of Schubert is there, true or false. You are still at liberty to believe it or not.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

AmateurComposer said:


> I followed your advice and read the Wiki entry about Anton Felix Schindler. The title of the entry is "_Subsequent discredit and recent revival of credibility_"
> 
> I am not here to defend the reputation of Anton Schindler, but the report about the Beethoven's opinion of Schubert is there, true or false. You are still at liberty to believe it or not.


It is just that in the purest academic rigor of musicology, second hand reports, as in a court of law, are considered inconclusive hearsay, and not concrete evidence. Ergo, they are "inadmissable" in report, argument, or thesis.

I think we all know what Wiki is, and is not?

When it comes to a Beethoven, or some luminary figure, it is quite common for those who survive the great one to embellish what encounters, associations they had, including misremembering, either as a basic human flaw and trait or that other well-known one: they are now the center of attention and people will listen to what they say as 'important,' -- their moment in the spotlight.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Re Schindler: "It was demonstrated that he falsified entries in Beethoven's Conversation Books (into which he inserted many spurious entries after Beethoven's 1827 death) and that he had exaggerated his period of close association with the composer (his claimed '11 or 12 years' was likely no more than five or six). It was also believed that Schindler also destroyed more than half of the conversation books. _The Beethoven Compendium_ (Cooper 1991, p. 52) goes so far as to say that Schindler's propensity for inaccuracy and fabrication was so great that virtually nothing he has recorded can be relied on unless it is supported by other evidence."

Another musicologist argues in favor of Schindler, kind of -- see the Wiki entry. The Wiki talk page is of interest as well.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Re Schindler: "It was demonstrated that he falsified entries in Beethoven's Conversation Books (into which he inserted many spurious entries after Beethoven's 1827 death) and that he had exaggerated his period of close association with the composer (his claimed '11 or 12 years' was likely no more than five or six). It was also believed that Schindler also destroyed more than half of the conversation books. _The Beethoven Compendium_ (Cooper 1991, p. 52) goes so far as to say that Schindler's propensity for inaccuracy and fabrication was so great that virtually nothing he has recorded can be relied on unless it is supported by other evidence."
> 
> Another musicologist argues in favor of Schindler, kind of -- see the Wiki entry. The Wiki talk page is of interest as well.


Witness DISMISSED!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Another fun Beethoven story: "Anselm Hüttenbrenner, who was present at the time, said that there was a peal of thunder at the moment of death." Also that Beethoven sat up in bed and raised his clenched fist to the heavens. Uh...OK. Hüttenbrenner was a buddy of Schubert, with a pronounced Romantic inclination. His recollections are described in his own article in Wiki as "probably unreliable." And yet we constantly see this story as fact.

Beethoven's housekeeper was also present at his death, but nobody thought to ask her what she saw...


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Another fun Beethoven story: "Anselm Hüttenbrenner, who was present at the time, said that there was a peal of thunder at the moment of death." Also that Beethoven sat up in bed and raised his clenched fist to the heavens.


And there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days?


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## Guest (Jan 1, 2014)

Well I for one like the original question. Good job Neoshredder!

I bet ol' Ludvig would like romanticism, modernism, jazz, techno, world music, etc. And I doubt he'd limit himself just to composing classical music - he might be a filmmaker or a programmer today if he were born 200 years later.

Or maybe Beethoven would be a couch potato addicted to the internet? :devil:


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Apparently Beethoven's favorite food was a big bowl of Mac and cheese. So I think a more interesting question might be: Would Beethoven appreciate Kraft Macaroni and Cheese, with the bag of powder that you soak in water as substitute for real cheese?


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

violadude said:


> Apparently Beethoven's favorite food was a big bowl of Mac and cheese. So I think a more interesting question might be: Would Beethoven appreciate Kraft Macaroni and Cheese, with the bag of powder that you soak in water as substitute for real cheese?


When it comes to Beethoven, that is THE most important question to go hypothetical over, like ever.


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## AmateurComposer (Sep 13, 2009)

AmateurComposer said:


> I followed your advice and read the Wiki entry about Anton Felix Schindler. The title of the entry is "_Subsequent discredit and recent revival of credibility_"
> 
> I am not here to defend the reputation of Anton Schindler, but the report about the Beethoven's opinion of Schubert is there, true or false. You are still at liberty to believe it or not.





PetrB said:


> It is just that in the purest academic rigor of musicology, second hand reports, as in a court of law, are considered inconclusive hearsay, and not concrete evidence. Ergo, they are "inadmissable" in report, argument, or thesis.
> 
> I think we all know what Wiki is, and is not?
> 
> When it comes to a Beethoven, or some luminary figure, it is quite common for those who survive the great one to embellish what encounters, associations they had, including misremembering, either as a basic human flaw and trait or that other well-known one: they are now the center of attention and people will listen to what they say as 'important,' -- their moment in the spotlight.





KenOC said:


> Re Schindler: "It was demonstrated that he falsified entries in Beethoven's Conversation Books (into which he inserted many spurious entries after Beethoven's 1827 death) and that he had exaggerated his period of close association with the composer (his claimed '11 or 12 years' was likely no more than five or six). It was also believed that Schindler also destroyed more than half of the conversation books. _The Beethoven Compendium_ (Cooper 1991, p. 52) goes so far as to say that Schindler's propensity for inaccuracy and fabrication was so great that virtually nothing he has recorded can be relied on unless it is supported by other evidence."
> 
> Another musicologist argues in favor of Schindler, kind of -- see the Wiki entry. The Wiki talk page is of interest as well.





PetrB said:


> Witness DISMISSED!


I would like to clarify that I wrote very clearly: "the report ... is there, *true or false*" which means that I mentioned the existence of the report, *only the existence*, without expressing any opinion whatsoever about its credibility or the lack of it.

And, by the way, am I correct in seeing here a disagreement between _PetrB_ and _KenOC_ about the credibility of the Wiki references discussed here?



KenOC said:


> Another fun Beethoven story: "Anselm Hüttenbrenner, who was present at the time, said that there was a peal of thunder at the moment of death." Also that Beethoven sat up in bed and raised his clenched fist to the heavens. Uh...OK. Hüttenbrenner was a buddy of Schubert, with a pronounced Romantic inclination. His recollections are described in his own article in Wiki as "probably unreliable." And yet we constantly see this story as fact.
> 
> Beethoven's housekeeper was also present at his death, but nobody thought to ask her what she saw...


As for Anselm Hüttenbrenner, the one who held the score of Schubert's unfinished symphony in his drawer for more than forty years, I happened to see somewhere in the internet a document claiming to be a letter written by Deutch. According to that document Deutch expressed strong disapproval of Hüttenbrenner. As far as I can remember, his words were "I don't like Hüttenbrenner at any age."


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

violadude said:


> Would Beethoven appreciate Kraft Macaroni and Cheese, with the bag of powder that you soak in water as substitute for real cheese?


Beethoven would approve, but only made with whole milk and somewhat more butter than the box calls for. Coincidentally, the way I like it.


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## Livly_Station (Jan 8, 2014)

If Beethoven were biologically immortal and went through every period of music in their chronological order, I think he would be okay with every era, liking some composers and disliking others, good or bad composers.

I totally see him implicating with some really overemotional composer in some of their major works, or saying others are too shallow. But, as a whole, he would like the "evolution" of music in sound, harmonies, expressivity, grasp, magnitude and intimacy. And I think he would really appreciate modern music, especially the beginning-mid stuff.

I just can't say names, because I think it would be a little too much. Some thing have to remain unpredictable to be remain fun and realistic.

What he would compose I really can't even imagine.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

OP: Why don't you ask the composer?

Oh yeah.....I forgot!


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## Klavierspieler (Jul 16, 2011)

He would hate them both.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Klavierspieler said:


> He would hate them both.


Hear hear........


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I remember reading somebody saying that composers are usually involved with their own music and have little time to worry too much about the music of others. There may be some truth in this.

Beethoven seems to have been mostly interested in composers who were successful in genres he found difficult but valued highly -- primarily operas and religious choral music.


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