# mozart/haydn



## ldiat (Jan 27, 2016)

so here is my question. if it is true mozart and Haydn were buddies is there any evidence that either one helped the other compose their music? eg . one was stuck on a movement or use this theme for a composition. i have always wondered thanks


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

There seems to be a scholarly consensus that each learned from the other. Haydn's art, in particular, may have been deepened by exposure to the younger man's music. Conjecture mostly, no direct evidence I know of.

Nothing specific, as you seem to be asking about.


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## ldiat (Jan 27, 2016)

KenOC said:


> There seems to be a scholarly consensus that each learned from the other. Haydn's art, in particular, may have been deepened by exposure to the younger man's music. Conjecture mostly, no direct evidence I know of.
> 
> Nothing specific, as you seem to be asking about.


thank you that's interesting


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## Retrograde Inversion (Nov 27, 2016)

I've always thought that the Benedictus in Mozart's Requiem sounds rather Haydnesque, but of course there's absolutely no evidence that Haydn was involved in the completion of that work.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Each held very high regard for the other. No greater minds have come together in one half century than these two great minds.


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

Mozart admired Haydn and wrote a series of 'Haydn String Quartets' so I think it is reasonable to conclude he was influenced by him


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Haydn declared before God to Mozart's father Leopold that Wolfgang was the greatest composer known to him and yes Mozart did dedicate 6 string quartets to Haydn. As far as I know, they were rivals.

If Haydn learned anything from Mozart it sure wasn't in composing keyboard concertos. Haydn's are rather disappointing in comparison to Mozart's.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Haydn's art, in particular, may have been deepened by exposure to the younger man's music. Conjecture mostly, no direct evidence I know of.
> 
> .


Whose conjecture is this? Just yours?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

We need a lectcha on conjectcha? :lol:


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Mozart used some features in Haydn's operas in his own and obviously did learn much from him.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

They seemed to be growing apart. What makes me say that is that Mozart's last instrumental music, 1790 and after, is (I claim) becoming simpler, more naive. That doesn't seem anything like the direction Haydn's instrumental music was taking at that time (he wrote the op 64 quartets in 1790 for example), or later.


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

Mandryka said:


> They seemed to be growing apart. What makes me say that is that Mozart's last instrumental music, 1790 and after, is (I claim) becoming simpler, more naive. That doesn't seem anything like the direction Haydn's instrumental music was taking at that time (he wrote the op 64 quartets in 1790 for example), or later.


What do you base that on? Mozart's last two quintets were written in 1790 and don't reflect a trend towards the simple or naive. In some ways, they're more complex than the more popular C major and G minor quintets that precede them. Then there are the pieces he wrote for mechanical clock. If anything, it points towards a trend to more contrapuntal involvement. The last piano concerto and clarinet concerto were written for smaller orchestras than the previous concertos, but there is evidence now that Mozart started the first movement of both works earlier, in 1788.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

trazom said:


> What do you base that on? Mozart's last two quintets were written in 1790 and don't reflect a trend towards the simple or naive. In some ways, they're more complex than the more popular C major and G minor quintets that precede them. Then there are the pieces he wrote for mechanical clock. If anything, it points towards a trend to more contrapuntal involvement. The last piano concerto and clarinet concerto were written for smaller orchestras than the previous concertos, but there is evidence now that Mozart started the first movement of both works earlier, in 1788.


The thing that got me think this is the last three violin sonatas, also the last piano concerto, the last string quintet, the clarinet concerto.

I think I hear a change in Mozart's style. And I think they sound simpler than (eg) the 24th piano concerto or the Quartets for Haydn. Magic Flute is another example of this shift in style.

The mechanical clock pieces are severe. I haven't done the work on this but I suspect he was writing severe contrapuntal music from time to time throughout most of his adult life. But they represent a deviation from Mozart's core style I think.

(I'm not sure of any of this by the way, classical style isn't central to my musical interests at all so I could well be completely wrong -- I put it forward for refutation.)


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Mandryka said:


> I think I hear a change in Mozart's style. And I think they sound simpler than (eg) the 24th piano concerto or the Quartets for Haydn. Magic Flute is another example of this shift in style.


I hardly think Mozart's style got simpler as he aged....I found this past thread from this forum, regarding the complex and very sophisticated compositional style from the Finale of his Sym #41 'Jupiter":
http://www.talkclassical.com/20415-about-fugal-writing-mozarts.html


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

Mandryka said:


> The thing that got me think this is the last three violin sonatas, also the last piano concerto, the last string quintet, the clarinet concerto.
> 
> I think I hear a change in Mozart's style. And I think they sound simpler than (eg) the 24th piano concerto or the Quartets for Haydn. Magic Flute is another example of this shift in style.
> 
> ...


 In the case of his very last violin sonata, I think it was a piece written for a beginner student, not necessarily reflective of his style overall. The last piano concerto is written for a smaller orchestra but still reflects the increasing use of chromaticism dissonance in his style, like the d flat in the bass against d natural in the first violins in the opening ritornello, or the tritone modulation in the first movement development of that piece. The last string quintet is actually the most similar to Haydn's style: There's more monothematic development(some themes that Mozart actually borrows from Haydn) and more fugato passages. The D major quintet finale has the same layout and 5-part invertible counterpoint of the Jupiter symphony as well as 4-voiced stretto passages and fugatos earlier in the movement. The part writing in his string trio k.563 and the fugal development passages of four hand sonata k.497 in F also reflect Mozart's increasing use of counterpoint. This includes The Magic Flute,which contrasts simple arias, like those for Papageno, with the contrapuntal treatment in the overture, the chorale setting in the duet for the two armed guards, and even some of the trios. So while I do agree with you that there is a change in style, I see the concentration and "severity" across multiple genres reflecting his increasing experimentation with harmony and counterpoint, rather than increasing simplification.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The music only sounds simpler.

The Clarinet Concerto. Piano Concerto No. 27. Ave verum Corpus. They can all make one cry.

Mozart creates the ILLUSION of simplicity, but in reality is simply more evidence of his mega-genius. Some of the most nostalgic, heartbreaking, magnificent music one will ever hear.

A man who knows the clock is ticking near the end.....complete resignation.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Another example is Mozart's _Requiem_. I wouldn't say it points towards increasing musical simplicity either. It seems pretty harmonically adventurous, like much of his other later works.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

hpowders said:


> The music only sounds simpler.
> 
> The Clarinet Concerto. Piano Concerto No. 27. Ave verum Corpus. They can all make one cry.
> 
> ...


yes, definitely applies to the last 6 symphonies...there is a poignancy, not really melancholy, but a depth of expression that is hard to describe...it's certainly not simple....to express this "resignation" with such formal and technical perfection is the mark of great genius, IMO.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I find Haydn and Mozart's use of intervals in melodies so radically different I can't as a layman hear much influence either way unless it is in the overall structure and balance of a piece. I think toward the end of his life Mozart started sounding slightly more like Haydn (or even Beethoven), but this is just based on conjecture from listening, not analysis.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Weston said:


> I find Haydn and Mozart's use of intervals in melodies so radically different I can't as a layman hear much influence either way unless it is in the overall structure and balance of a piece. I think toward the end of his life Mozart started sounding slightly more like Haydn (or even Beethoven), but this is just based on conjecture from listening, not analysis.


Very good point made!


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

Heck148 said:


> I hardly think Mozart's style got simpler as he aged....I found this past thread from this forum, regarding the complex and very sophisticated compositional style from the Finale of his Sym #41 'Jupiter":
> http://www.talkclassical.com/20415-about-fugal-writing-mozarts.html


"The awe-inspiring counterpoint in Mozart's final symphony, explained in one video", by musicologist Richard Atkinson:

(With the culminating point explained from 11'50" to the end)


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Weston said:


> I find Haydn and Mozart's use of intervals in melodies so radically different I can't as a layman hear much influence either way unless it is in the overall structure and balance of a piece. I think toward the end of his life *Mozart started sounding slightly more like Haydn *(or even Beethoven), but this is just based on conjecture from listening, not analysis.


I dont hear Haydn in any of Mozart's later works - I dont hear him in the last 4 symphonies - the operas - the late quartets the requiem. So not sure where you do hear him. In fact I also dont hear him anywhere at all except maybe some of the early works where Mozart is imitating.


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

hpowders said:


> The music only sounds simpler.
> 
> The Clarinet Concerto. Piano Concerto No. 27. Ave verum Corpus. *They can all make one cry.*


With or without chopping onions?


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

stomanek said:


> I dont hear Haydn in any of Mozart's later works - I dont hear him in the last 4 symphonies - the operas - the late quartets the requiem. So not sure where you do hear him. In fact I also dont hear him anywhere at all except maybe some of the early works where Mozart is imitating.


You don't hear Haydn in Mozart's late quartets, really?


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## Antiquarian (Apr 29, 2014)

ArtMusic said:


> Each held very high regard for the other. No greater minds have come together in one half century than these two great minds.


Not everyone had that opinion of them: among their contemporaries, particularly Caroline Pichler, daughter of the Viennese Privy Councillor Franz von Greiner: "Mozart and Haydn, whom I knew well, were men who showed, in their personal associations with others, no other outstanding spiritual force and practically no sort of learning or higher culture. An everyday turn of mind, insipid jokes, and, as regards the former composer, a thoughtless way of life, were all displayed in their associations."

Having read through Alfred Einstein's _Mozart: His Character, His Work_, I discovered that the two shared ideas about composition, but did not collaborate. I'm not really up on recent scholarship, however.


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## ldiat (Jan 27, 2016)

jdec said:


> "The awe-inspiring counterpoint in Mozart's final symphony, explained in one video", by musicologist Richard Atkinson:
> 
> (With the culminating point explained from 11'50" to the end)


that was neat! thanks! obtw love this!!


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Antiquarian said:


> Not everyone had that opinion of them: among their contemporaries, particularly *Caroline Pichler, daughter of the Viennese Privy Councillor Franz von Greiner: "Mozart and Haydn, whom I knew well, were men who showed, in their personal associations with others, no other outstanding spiritual force and practically no sort of learning or higher culture. An everyday turn of mind, insipid jokes, and, as regards the former composer, a thoughtless way of life, were all displayed in their associations."*
> 
> Having read through Alfred Einstein's _Mozart: His Character, His Work_, I discovered that the two shared ideas about composition, but did not collaborate. I'm not really up on recent scholarship, however.


So what? In his social life Mozart was no angel - he could be childish etc, profane - probably never touched on the meaning of life in conversation. What does that matter? He is notable for one skill and one quality - the rest is irrelevant.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

jdec said:


> With or without chopping onions?


The highest honor I can bestow upon Mozart is to say the tears come naturally to me, without an onion in sight.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

stomanek said:


> So what? In his social life Mozart was no angel - he could be childish etc, profane - probably never touched on the meaning of life in conversation. What does that matter? He is notable for one skill and one quality - the rest is irrelevant.


Just like real life, nobody's perfect and the rest is as you so nicely pointing out:irrelevant.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Buddies, Haydn & Mozart? They were fierce rivals.

That would be like asking Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump to go out on a date.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

<<Each held very high regard for the other. No greater minds have come together in one half century than these two great minds. >>

Not to forget Haydn "taught" Beethoven...


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

hpowders said:


> Buddies, Haydn & Mozart? They were fierce rivals.
> 
> That would be like asking Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump to go out on a date.


They were friends - Haydn introduced Mozart to the masons. Mozart called Haydn "Papa" - composed 6 qts in his honour.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

I think Mozart's "Haydn Quartets" Op. 10 were in response to Haydn's Op. 33 quartets, which were a significant departure from Haydn's earlier quartets.


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