# Most Controversial Opera?



## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Which is the most controversial opera? Consider perhaps:

- Whether the work was banned
- The composition of the music
- The subject of the libretto
- Climate at the premier
- Contemporary opinion
- Controversial influence


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Just off the top of my head: Death of Klinghoffer.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Just off the top of my head: Death of Klinghoffer.


You have to say why, doorknob.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I suppose it was easier to be controversial in the 18th and 19th century when political censorship was an oft-used procedure in opera in order to avoid giving 'offence' to state and church unless the content was on an invisibly metaphorical level so as to 'make the cut'. 

For reasons of 'taste' I gather Strauss's Salome was dogged with controversy - in the UK the opera was initially banned outright (but I wonder if this was out of 'damnatio memoriae' to Oscar Wilde as much as taking an exclusively narrow moral stance because of the perceived 'erotic' elements). It was also banned when Mahler wanted to conduct it in Vienna - possibly the only time in Vienna when a major decision made by the civic bigwigs to stonewall him wasn't based on anti-semitic grounds.


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

_Porgy and Bess_ has been the subject of controversy since its premiere in 1935. In that period, the subject matter was considered to be "beneath" the standards of grand opera - notwithstanding _Salome_ and _Cavalleria Rusticana_, among others. The compulsory presence of an all-black cast banned productions throughout most of the U.S. as well as Germany. George Gershwin died within two years of the premiere, preventing him from writing more operas, which might have helped re-establish _Porgy and Bess_ in the repertoire.

After the war, there was a revival of _Porgy and Bess_ starting in the 1950's, but recently the pressure on the opera has come from the left, rather than from the right. All sorts of ridiculous causes such as "cultural appropriation" - yes we know that Puccini was actually Chinese and that Verdi was Spanish - and "inappropriate role models" - as if operas aren't full of much worse characters than Crown and Sportin' Life.

So the opera is still effectively banned in North America. Nobody wants to cross a picket line of disgruntled activists, and so no opera houses will put it on. And the greatest opera ever written in the New World remains neglected.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

waldvogel said:


> _Porgy and Bess_ has been the subject of controversy since its premiere in 1935. In that period, the subject matter was considered to be "beneath" the standards of grand opera - notwithstanding _Salome_ and _Cavalleria Rusticana_, among others. The compulsory presence of an all-black cast banned productions throughout most of the U.S. as well as Germany. George Gershwin died within two years of the premiere, preventing him from writing more operas, which might have helped re-establish _Porgy and Bess_ in the repertoire.
> 
> This is interesting - and all very sad. Do I take it then that initially P & B was too much of a hot potato due to it actually portraying a black community in the first place, and it's a hot potato now not because of that but because of accusations of racial stereotyping?
> 
> ...


This is interesting - and all very sad. Do I take it then that initially P & B was too much of a hot potato due to it actually portraying a black community in the first place and featuring a black cast, and it's a hot potato now not because of that but because, with the benefit of hindsight, it now faces accusations of negative racial stereotyping? While the earlier ban was disgraceful purely on racial grounds perhaps these latterday arbiters of political correctness ought to get off their high horses and actually speak to artists such as Willard White, Cynthia Haymon etc. who have sung and played the parts with such distinction and ask them what THEY think about it.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Death of Klinghoffer, no doubt. It created major stir, given its relatively favorable view of Palestine terrorists.
As a matter of fact, it's quite neutral and considers both sides' points of view.
But you know that people get really passionate about the Arab-Israeli conflict and any work about it is bound to create controversy.


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## AnaMendoza (Jul 29, 2011)

And the film of Porgy and Bess--Sidney Poitier, Dorothy Dandridge, Sammy Davis Jr.-- has been suppressed by the Gershwin estate.


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

AnaMendoza said:


> And the film of Porgy and Bess--Sidney Poitier, Dorothy Dandridge, Sammy Davis Jr.-- has been suppressed by the Gershwin estate.


Now I know why I can't buy it at Amazon.com, see it on any of the hundreds of TV stations that I receive, or get it at the public library. I remember seeing it on TV, probably back in the 70's, and I was really impressed. I'd love to see it again now that I have a better idea of what constitutes a good opera. Well, we can only hope. _The Manchurian Candidate_ disappeared for about thirty years.

I even liked Otto Preminger's _Carmen Jones_. It's kind of like an American regie production of Carmen's Greatest Hits.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

waldvogel;200841So the opera is still effectively banned in North America. Nobody wants to cross a picket line of disgruntled activists said:


> Our local opera company plans to perform _Porgy and Bess _in the 2012 season, as does at least one other U.S. company (Opera Delaware). And the Lyric Opera of Chicago staged P&B just a few years ago.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

waldvogel said:


> _Porgy and Bess_ has been the subject of controversy since its premiere in 1935. In that period, the subject matter was considered to be "beneath" the standards of grand opera - notwithstanding _Salome_ and _Cavalleria Rusticana_, among others. The compulsory presence of an all-black cast banned productions throughout most of the U.S. as well as Germany. George Gershwin died within two years of the premiere, preventing him from writing more operas, which might have helped re-establish _Porgy and Bess_ in the repertoire.
> 
> After the war, there was a revival of _Porgy and Bess_ starting in the 1950's, but recently the pressure on the opera has come from the left, rather than from the right. All sorts of ridiculous causes such as "cultural appropriation" - yes we know that Puccini was actually Chinese and that Verdi was Spanish - and "inappropriate role models" - as if operas aren't full of much worse characters than Crown and Sportin' Life.
> 
> So the opera is still effectively banned in North America. Nobody wants to cross a picket line of disgruntled activists, and so no opera houses will put it on. And the greatest opera ever written in the New World remains neglected.


Porgy & Bess has just been produced by Seattle opera & received great reviews.


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

I'm glad to see that _Porgy and Bess_ is getting performed. I don't know if it has ever been performed in Canada - but then again, neither has _Parsifal_. It's just that _Porgy and Bess_ doesn't require 100 musicians in the pit, magical stage effects, and a tenor and baritone (and maybe a soprano) with Wagnerian skills. _Porgy and Bess_ could be successfully performed by a good local company, importing a few singers if required.

I've heard that the Seattle Opera is very good. Unfortunately, Seattle is about as far away from my home in Ontario as London or Paris, so I've never been there.

MAuer, where is your local opera company? If it's a reasonable drive away, I'd like to see this production.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Couchie said:


> You have to say why, doorknob.





Almaviva said:


> Death of Klinghoffer, no doubt. It created major stir, given its relatively favorable view of Palestine terrorists.
> As a matter of fact, it's quite neutral and considers both sides' points of view.
> But you know that people get really passionate about the Arab-Israeli conflict and any work about it is bound to create controversy.


Alma said it for me. I didn't want to start a middle Eastern war on the forum and couldn't think (very late at night) how to say this neutrally, seeing that I have a certain level of partisanship myself.


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## rsmithor (Jun 30, 2011)

Alban Berg's Opera "Lulu"... fits your list of questions like a glove...

http://hunsmire.tripod.com/music/lulu.html

- Whether the work was banned... Berg's music at the time was banned by the Nazis in his native Germany.

- The composition of the music... During the rise of the Nazi Party in Austria, 12tone was labeled, along with jazz, as degenerate art.

- The subject of the libretto... Berg's Lulu is a more complex and less paranoiac representation of that fin de siècle archetype, the femme fatale. The character Lulu is an amoral representation of the pleasure principle: she is the embodiment of pure desire rather than of immoral transgression. 
http://www.chandos.net/CD_Notes.asp?CNumber=CHAN 3130

- Climate at the premier... Lulu, which had all but some of the third act scored, was premiered in Zurich in 1937 with its first fully-scored two acts and act three being completed with the final Adagio of his Symphonische Stücke aus 'Lulu.' 
http://www.musicacademyonline.com/composer/biographies.php?bid=24

- Contemporary opinion... Bergs warm embrace of 12tone, to this day, stands as a benchmark, a beacon, looking forward, yet his style is firmly rooted in the romance of the past.

- Controversial influence... 12 tone lives on in todays concert halls worldwide, and screams aloud in todays movie scores...


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## Grosse Fugue (Mar 3, 2010)

_Lady Macbeth _by Shostakovich. Almost got him killed by Stalin


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

waldvogel said:


> MAuer, where is your local opera company? If it's a reasonable drive away, I'd like to see this production.


Cincinnati. Probably still not driving distance from Ontario, but much closer than Seattle.


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

Cinci is only 4.5 hours away from me. Say hi to John Morris Russell when you see him.

_Porgy and Bess_ is on next summer in Cincinnati. Sounds like a road trip!


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Richard Strauss, _Salome_ was controversial during its early musical history. It was banned in London for a few years at first.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

I would speak rather about an almost porno opera (shame on you) Les Mamelles d'Anne. A very sexy singer shows her boobs all along! Great opera by the way!

Martin


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> I would speak rather about an almost porno opera (shame on you) Les Mamelles d'Anne. A very sexy singer shows her boobs all along! Great opera by the way!
> 
> Martin


 No, like Annie (sospiro) said, the opera is very discreet. It's Mr. McVicar's Eurotrash staging in Zurich that chose to over-expose the glands of the title. Fortunately like Annie said, it is unlikely that this production will be revived, thanks to the damage to the box-office of the opera house with people fighting for the tickets.


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

Almaviva said:


> Death of Klinghoffer, no doubt. It created major stir, given its relatively favorable view of Palestine terrorists.
> As a matter of fact, it's quite neutral and considers both sides' points of view.


Funny how people are supposed to be sensitive about a modern fascist apartheid state. But that's how they always worked: you're with them or against them.

Thanks thread, I'm gonna look into that opera, it'll be my first in years.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

regressivetransphobe said:


> Funny how people are supposed to be sensitive about a modern fascist apartheid state. But that's how they always worked: you're with them or against them.
> 
> Thanks thread, I'm gonna look into that opera, it'll be my first in years.


 I think Death of Klinghoffer is a very good opera, and this DVD is excellent:










Not for the faint of heart, but then, I don't think you're faint of heart.

You can read my review of it in the Modern Opera on DVD and Blu-ray thread, if you're interested.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> I think Death of Klinghoffer is a very good opera, and this DVD is excellent:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes this is a brilliant film. Here is my review too. Alma's follows a few posts down,


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

So to summarize, my new opera should offer a pro-Palestinian view on the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, end with a shocking Salome-esque scene in poor taste, have the subject matter well below operatic standards and possibly star an all-black cast, have some 12-tone numbers, contain something that will offend my country's government, and have the leading soprano bare her breasts at least once per act.

Some rewrites to the libretto are in order.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Couchie said:


> So to summarize, my new opera should offer a pro-Palestinian view on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, end with a shocking Salome-esque scene in poor taste, have the subject matter well below operatic standards and possibly star an all-black cast, have some 12-tone numbers, contain something that will offend my country's government, and have the leading soprano bare her breasts at least once per act.
> 
> Some rewrites to the libretto are in order.


Give up, Couchie, your opera will never be as good as my Les Mamelles d'Anna.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> Give up, Couchie, your opera will never be as good as my Les Mamelles d'Anna.


Careful, or I'll write the sequel,_ La Mastectomia d'Anna_.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Couchie said:


> Careful, or I'll write the sequel,_ La Mastectomia d'Anna_.


 You wouldn't!
How would you hurt such beautiful creatures? They feed babies, you know?
You... you... evil green monster!!


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> You wouldn't!
> How would you hurt such beautiful creatures?
> You... you... evil green monster!!


In fact, I could just plagiarize Salome, but replace Salome with Almaviva, Jochanaan with Anna Netrebko, and Jochanaan's head with Anna's breasts.... :devil:

_"Bring me on a silver charger... the breasts..... of ANNAAAAAAAAAAAA!"_


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Couchie said:


> In fact, I could just plagiarize Salome, but replace Salome with Almaviva, Jochanaan with Anna Netrebko, and Jochanaan's head with Anna's breasts.... :devil:
> _"Bring me on a silver charger... the breasts..... of ANNAAAAAAAAAAAA!"_


 [Alma furiously browses his copy of _Moderation for Dummies_ - there's gotta be somewhere a penalty resulting in immediate multi-site ban for jeopardizing a patrimony of humankind like Anna's breasts]
[Alma can't find it - an obvious oversight from the book's author - Alma changes tactics and calls his favorite rogue mercenary group, orders a small nuclear device with Prime delivery from Hiredguns.com]
[Alma consults his vBulletin manual to find out Couchie's approximate geographic area through his IP address]
[Got it. As soon as the SND arrives, humankind will issue a relieved sigh - except for those who live in a radius of 50 miles around Couchie's house, of course, which will be acceptable collateral damage given the circumstances - thanks to the elimination of this pernicious threat to those beloved beauties]


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

*Paul Hindemith's* opera _Neues vom Tage_ (News of the Day), premiered in 1929, ruffled a few feathers. I've never heard it, but did read that Hitler saw it at the time & was horrified, of course (it had a pivotal nude scene). Here's some info from Wikipedia, quote below from article HERE.



> ...The opera is a satire of modern life, celebrity and marriage, involving parodies of both Puccini's music and Berlin cabaret. The opera became notorious for a scene with a naked soprano (Laura) singing in the bath about the wonders of modern plumbing, though Hindemith replaced her with the tenor (Hermann) in the revised version...


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

> The opera is a satire of modern life, celebrity and marriage, involving parodies of both Puccini's music and Berlin cabaret. The opera became notorious for a scene with a naked soprano (Laura) singing in the bath about the wonders of modern plumbing


Is it weird that from this description alone I have never wanted to watch *anything* more than I want to watch this opera right now? (Besides_ La Mastectomia d'Anna_, of course)


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Well, *Couchie*, I don't blame you, the mere mention of the subject of plumbing gets me soooo excited!...


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## Rasa (Apr 23, 2009)

I'll just mention La muette de portici, since it did cause quite a stir, what with the Belgian revolution and all.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Ginastera's Bomarzo was banned in Argentina due to too much sex.
Many of Verdi's early operas have inspired the Italian revolution; the Va Pensiero chorus in Nabucco almost became Italy's new anthem, and a young revolutionary man plunged to his death from the mezzanine during one of them to add his death to the Risorgimento movement - which one? I don't remember... I think it was La Forza del Destino. 
The main ones have been mentioned - I think La Muette de Portici takes the cake since it more directly caused the most trouble.
There are some minor ones too, like Il Barbiere di Siviglia from Rossini which clashed with Paisiello's supporters. There's La Querelle des Bouffons in France (that's the name of a controversy, not of an opera) around supporters of opéra-comique versus opera bouffa. There's the Jewish composers banned by Hitler as degenerate art. The history of opera is full of controversy.


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

Almaviva said:


> There's the Jewish composers banned by Hitler as degenerate art. The history of opera is full of controversy.


This reminded me of the horrible story of Viktor Ullmann's _Der Kaiser von Atlantis_.


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## itywltmt (May 29, 2011)

I don't understand why *Turandot *hasn't been discussed so far.

Though the subject matter isn't controvercial, the composition, and in particular the posthumous completion of the opera, has stirred controversy, and in particular Toscanini's infamous actions at the _premiere _(choosing to stop the performance rather than use the Alfano ending) brings up the whole issue of how Puccini himself would have resolved the plot, and whether Toscanini approved of the ending.

My theory (unsubstantiated) is that Puccini probably would not have resolved the opera any bettter than Alfano did - how can you take Turandot's actions and somehow reconcile them with a (somewhat) happy ending?

My thoughts, not necessarily yours...


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

itywltmt said:


> I don't understand why *Turandot *hasn't been discussed so far.
> 
> Though the subject matter isn't controvercial, the composition, and in particular the posthumous completion of the opera, has stirred controversy, and in particular Toscanini's infamous actions at the _premiere _(choosing to stop the performance rather than use the Alfano ending) brings up the whole issue of how Puccini himself would have resolved the plot, and whether Toscanini approved of the ending.
> 
> ...


I don't really understand what you mean. Puccini was doing the music, not the plot, which belongs to Giuseppe Adami and Renato Simoni, which in turn based themselves on Carlo Gozzi's _Turandot_. The libretto was complete. It's the music that was not complete, and I'd fully expect that Puccini's music would have been superior to Alfano's, had he completed the score before his death.


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## AnaMendoza (Jul 29, 2011)

I never realized that anyone considered that Toscanini's actions at the premiere were infamous. I thought that it was intended as a touching tribute to Puccini, and almost certainly planned with the agreement of everyone concerned. Note that in that era, with recorded music not as pervasive as it is now, it'd be taken for granted that people would attend a musical production multiple times--so the people who attended the premiere wouldn't really have missed out. If they had any interest in the opera, they'd return and hear the finished version another time.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Agreed. I thought that it was a beautiful thing to say and fitting for the premiere - that at this point the maestro put down his baton and died.
As early as the next day, the opera was performed complete, with Alfano's ending.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> I don't really understand what you mean. Puccini was doing the music, not the plot, which belongs to Giuseppe Adami and Renato Simoni, which in turn based themselves on Carlo Gozzi's _Turandot_. The libretto was complete. It's the music that was not complete, and I'd fully expect that Puccini's music would have been superior to Alfano's, had he completed the score before his death.


You have said what I had in mind (it is not the first time...LOL)

Martin


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

*Mozart's* later operas - eg. _Marriage of Figaro, Don Giovanni _especially - rode on the wave of revolutionary Europe (eg. around the time of the French revolution in 1789). They were fairly controversial in terms of taking the **** out of the aristocracy - eg. lampooning them to a fair degree - as well as hinting that maybe a better political system than the ancien regime could become reality (eg. aristocrats were fallible, there were limitations to the old absolutist system). I think one of them didn't go down very well in conservative Vienna, but it was successful in more politically moderate Prague. Looking at it this way, these operas of Mozart were the most significant in terms of making pretty huge political impacts, esp. in central Europe. In any case, they definitely would have made audiences think about who called the tunes in the political/power sphere - & in some ways, Mozart was questioning the members of the audience who were themselves part and parcel of those power structures, which during the following century would be sorely weakened, and in the aftermath of World War I, go up in smoke entirely. The writing was on the wall for the aristocracy even when Mozart penned his late operatic masterpieces...


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Sid James said:


> *Mozart's* later operas - eg. _Marriage of Figaro, Don Giovanni _especially - rode on the wave of revolutionary Europe (eg. around the time of the French revolution in 1789). They were fairly controversial in terms of taking the **** out of the aristocracy - eg. lampooning them to a fair degree - as well as hinting that maybe a better political system than the ancien regime could become reality (eg. aristocrats were fallible, there were limitations to the old absolutist system). I think one of them didn't go down very well in conservative Vienna, but it was successful in more politically moderate Prague. Looking at it this way, these operas of Mozart were the most significant in terms of making pretty huge political impacts, esp. in central Europe. In any case, they definitely would have made audiences think about who called the tunes in the political/power sphere - & in some ways, Mozart was questioning the members of the audience who were themselves part and parcel of those power structures, which during the following century would be sorely weakened, and in the aftermath of World War I, go up in smoke entirely. The writing was on the wall for the aristocracy even when Mozart penned his late operatic masterpieces...


Sort of. These two works you mentioned may have made some political impact, but that was incidental rather than deliberate on Mozart's part. He was definitely not the fellow who would want to offend his patrons using subtle means via the operatic medium. Instead, he was much more interested in "middle class" themes of marriage, fidelity and love largely amongst domestic settings rather than aristocractic ones, which inspired him to write beautiful music, mixed with some comedy. You also mentioned "politically moderate" Prague, which again I think was incidental because Prague was a city that loved Mozart's music, including instrumental ones (e.g. he wrote symphony #38 "Prague"). Of the last five operas that he wrote, only one dealt with aristocractic/political themes, namely _La Clemenza di Tito_; the rest did not, and these four were all motivated by his passion for more "down to earth" libretti and plots, including _Die Zauberflöte_.

More about Mozart and Prague: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozart_and_Prague


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Another point: the librettist of _Figaro_, _Cosi_ and _Don Giovanni_ was Lorenzo Da Ponte, and Da Ponte's patron was the emperor, Joseph II. It would therefore almost be inconceivable that Da Ponte and Mozart collaborated together to come up with libretti that could even be any sort of political attack on the Viennese nobility, which Mozart was also trying to secure employment with.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

A friend of mine heavily into opera told me about these things & others about Mozart. He's into opera of all eras & other musics as well. It is hearsay what I'm saying, but this guy knows his stuff equally to anyone on this forum regarding opera, he listens to it all the time, both on disc and live, and reads about it, etc.

You mention Joseph II, who was himself a moderate, called "the hatted emperor" because he didn't like wearing a crown, he liked to wear a hat.

I'm not saying that Mozart was undermining his audience, but questioning their values. This would pave the way for later operas like Beethoven's_ Fidelio_, where the main heroic characters were not aristocrats, but poor intellectuals. Basically, you'd have to agree that Mozart's operas were a world away from the operas of earlier times which were focused on things like Biblical stories and ancient gods, etc. You basically had a bunch of guys standing around singing about the gods and all this stuff. By comparison, Mozart's later operas were highly topical & he was definitely pushing the boundaries of what opera meant, etc...


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Sid James said:


> I'm not saying that Mozart was undermining his audience, but questioning their values. This would pave the way for later operas like Beethoven's_ Fidelio_, where the main heroic characters were not aristocrats, but poor intellectuals.


The two protagonists in _Fidelio_ are, in fact, nobles (in the final scene, Rocco refers to "Don Florestan"). This is made even plainer in Ferdinando Paer's _Leonora_, based on the same story, where Paer fills the roles of the aristocrats (Florestano, Pizzarro, and Don Fernando) with tenors, while casting those of lower social ranking -- i.e., Rocco and Giacchino -- as a bass and baritone, respectively.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Well,* MAuer*, the heroes in _Fidelio_ may well have been nobles (i wasn't aware of that, I have heard the opera, know it's basic story outline, etc.), but they were obviously not in a position of power and were most likely poor. In any case, it looks like Beethoven would have downplayed the fact that they're aristocrats. They are certainly in opposition to what's going on, in terms of being victims of tyranny. You must remember that it was actually enlightened/intellectual aristocats that were often behind revolutionay movements, at least in what was to come, eg. Count Cavour of the Italian move towards unification). A lot of the opera emerging from Mozart on was about questioning the ruling class, and about the position of the individual in society. I think this would become more obvious with Verdi's operas speaking to the emergence of nationalism in Europe...


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Sid James said:


> Well,* MAuer*, the heroes in _Fidelio_ may well have been nobles (i wasn't aware of that, I have heard the opera, know it's basic story outline, etc.), but they were obviously not in a position of power and were most likely poor. In any case, it looks like Beethoven would have downplayed the fact that they're aristocrats. They are certainly in opposition to what's going on, in terms of being victims of tyranny. You must remember that it was actually enlightened/intellectual aristocats that were often behind revolutionay movements, at least in what was to come, eg. Count Cavour of the Italian move towards unification). A lot of the opera emerging from Mozart on was about questioning the ruling class, and about the position of the individual in society. I think this would become more obvious with Verdi's operas speaking to the emergence of nationalism in Europe...


Sorry, have to disagree again. Florestan is certainly a political opponent of Pizarro, and we can assume that he (and Leonore) have liberal ideological leanings. However, there is no indication that they are poor, and -- as the final scene makes clear -- are actually friends of the government minister, Don Fernando.

Certainly, Beethoven supported the goals of the French revolution. There is also fairly good evidence that J.N. Bouilly based the characters of Leonore and Florestan in his original play on the Marquise and Marquis de Lafayette. She didn't disguise herself as a man, but did journey with a couple of her daughters to the prison in Olmütz, Austria, where he was being held during the Reign of Terror, and actually moved into the prison to be with him.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I'm not going to get bogged down in pedantic details here, but I think you make a good point here -


MAuer said:


> ...Certainly, Beethoven supported the goals of the French revolution...


& I'd add that he was greatly dissapointed when these goals or ideals didn't become reality, or became a kind of warped reality. Esp. in terms of Napoleon's bombardment and invasion of Vienna. There was a sense of ideals having been betrayed, and a move towards reactionary ways of doing things (eg. Chancellor Metternich). But I won't go on, I think you get my extension of what you're saying.

In any case, people who think that opera after & including what some of Mozart did was just merely entertainment are not taking in the historical context of what was going on in Europe at the time. This was a time of great change politically, socially, economically and so to artistically. I think that there was a move towards fantasy and grandiloquence later with guys like Meyerbeer & his operas which were highly stylised and didn't have much of a connection with reality, political or otherwise (as far as I know). Anyway, these kinds of topics are probably more appropriate for another thread. I'm just talking against what people may think, which is that only operas in the c20th were "controversial" or highly so. As some have said above, opera is not immune to controversy, perhaps it never was?...


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Grosse Fugue said:


> _Lady Macbeth _by Shostakovich. Almost got him killed by Stalin


That is so true!

Martin


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

I'm sure The Passenger will fall into this category. I assume as it's the ENO, it will be sung in English?

Hopefully one day it will be performed on stage in its original language.

_... Pountney does not mince his words when he describes The Passenger as "the most significant opera composed in the Russian language since Prokofiev's War and Peace"._

More information from director David Pountney.


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