# The Jonas Kaufmann thread....................



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Since he seems to be the tenor of choice these days.

Strengths, weaknesses?

How does he stack up to Pavarotti, Domingo, Carreras?

Or the great singers of the past?
Corelli, Bjorling, Del Monaco, Wunderlich, etc.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

He's very good but I don't think he stacks up that well against the names on that list. He just doesn't have that ping in his voice that would help him cut through the orchestra. Like Vickers, for example.

He'd certainly make my short-list but I'm unsure that he's the best tenor today, let alone as good as the old masters. I'm only talking about his voice and not other traits like acting/appearance etc. which has done him no harm.

I think his great advantage is that his voice is distinguishable but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's exceptional.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Of present tenors he is the best and looks and acts amazingly on video. Very Hollywood. I have dirty thoughts about him I am tired of the day old scruff, though. I don't LOOOOVE his voice like I did Bjorling,diStefano, Corelli, Vickers. I would rather see him than any other living tenor, though. Corelli was sexier, though....by far!!!!!


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Couac Addict said:


> He's very good but I don't think he stacks up that well against the names on that list. He just doesn't have that ping in his voice that would help him cut through the orchestra. Like Vickers, for example.
> 
> He'd certainly make my short-list but I'm unsure that he's the best tenor today, let alone as good as the old masters. I'm only talking about his voice and not other traits like acting/appearance etc. which has done him no harm.
> 
> I think his great advantage is that his voice is distinguishable but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's exceptional.


When you say "like Vickers, for example" do you mean that Vickers had "ping" or didn't? I'm curious, because listening to Vickers on record (I never heard him live), it would seem that his voice was not the "pingiest" of tenors either, but I could be wrong.

I think Kaufmann is an extraordinary actor and interpreter; his "E lucevan le stelle" on the Romantic Arias CD always leaves me in tears. It seems you either like the sound of his voice or don't (I definitely like it). It also strikes me that his method of vocal production is probably unique to him. There's a book on the lower male singing voices by a now-deceased American voice teacher named Richard Miller; in the appendix of the book he gives a list of famous baritones and basses who serve/have served as "good singing models." Most of the famous basses and baritones of the last 100 years or so are on the list, but tellingly he leaves off Fischer-Diskau, and by way of explanation Miller says that if he were to make a similar list for tenors he would omit Caruso on the grounds that Caruso's vocal production served him brilliantly but would be hard or even unhealthy for a young singer today to imitate. Were Miller alive today I suspect he'd say something similar about Kaufmann.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

I usually don't like to compare singers -- they are all unique, and there will never be another Wunderlich or Pavarotti. That said, from a subjective standpoint, I really like Kaufmann's voice with its blend of lyric and dramatic qualities, and he seems to be a very musical interpreter. As mentioned, he is also a wonderful actor, and regardless of how frequently he's sung a particular role, he always seems to add some different nuances whenever he returns to it. There were some individuals who always seemed to perform a given role in the same exact manner each time they sang it, like endless positives from a single photographic negative. Kaufmann also seems to be able to sing a variety of languages in a fairly idiomatic manner; his English pronunciation is certainly quite good, to judge from his Huon in the Gardiner recording of Weber's _Oberon_. The best tenor in the world today? For my tastes, Kaufmann is, but if I want to give an objective answer, I think I'd say he's one of the best.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

I don't like to compare singers either. But legendary already to me. Reminds me of a cross between Corelli and Wunderlich, two singers I pine away for.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Kiss the ground that this remarkable singer has come around in your lifetime. You'll not see the likes of him again.
That said, not one top singer in the world is/was without flaws so naturally Kaufmann has his. To me it's his throat sound which seems a bit heavy for me. Other than that, the man is a package -- fine musician, perfect actor, fine singer and looks like a movie star. What more could you ask for?


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> Kiss the ground that this remarkable singer has come around in your lifetime. You'll not see the likes of him again.
> That said, not one top singer in the world is/was without flaws so naturally Kaufmann has his. To me it's his throat sound which seems a bit heavy for me. Other than that, the man is a package -- fine musician, perfect actor, fine singer and looks like a movie star. What more could you ask for?


Indeed... I agree. In fifty years we are going to be complaining that we don't have a singer in future times as good as he does for today and the past.


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## Loge (Oct 30, 2014)

He has an incredible masculine voice for a tenor, very distinctive, you can pick him out on the radio. But it his acting, especially when filmed for DVD. For example his Don José had the intensity of anything that De Niro or Pacino did in the 70s. He never comes across as a cardboard cut out singing, he is the character.

As for his career path like all sensible tenors he has modeled it on Domingo. But we have a singer like Domingo that can act like De Niro.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Loge said:


> He has an incredible masculine voice for a tenor, very distinctive, you can pick him out on the radio. But it his acting, especially when filmed for DVD. For example his Don José had the intensity of anything that De Niro or Pacino did in the 70s. He never comes across as a cardboard cut out singing, he is the character.
> 
> As for his career path like all sensible tenors he has modeled it on Domingo. But we have a singer like Domingo that can act like De Niro.


Kaufmann acting I have not seen.... Domingo?... certainly not vocally I think.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Loge said:


> He has an incredible masculine voice for a tenor, very distinctive, you can pick him out on the radio. But it his acting, especially when filmed for DVD. For example his Don José had the intensity of anything that De Niro or Pacino did in the 70s. He never comes across as a cardboard cut out singing, he is the character.
> 
> As for his career path like all sensible tenors he has modeled it on Domingo. But we have a singer like Domingo that can act like De Niro.


Do not forget the *Werther* with Koch.:tiphat:


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Pugg said:


> Do not forget the *Werther* with Koch.:tiphat:


Oh man, I do need to check that out... I heard that he was really good in that one.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

albertfallickwang said:


> Indeed... I agree. In fifty years we are going to be complaining that we don't have a singer in future times as good as he does for today and the past.


Agreed. Caruso was criticized for not being as good as De Reszke....who was criticized for not being as good as Mario. Who would want to be an opera singer? haha.



Bellinilover said:


> When you say "like Vickers, for example" do you mean that Vickers had "ping" or didn't? I'm curious, because listening to Vickers on record (I never heard him live), it would seem that his voice was not the "pingiest" of tenors either, but I could be wrong.


Vickers in his prime was before my time as well. I think there's ping but it's not the kind of sound I would normally associate with it. His voice isn't light enough for that del Monaco type of sound but there's some kind of resonance going on there. I'm not a singer so I don't have any expertise regarding the creation of the sound.

His voice gets quite interesting between the 2-2:30min mark in this...


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

I think he's a wonderful singer. I'm slightly worried about his career path. There is a lot of Verismo at the moment when he could be singing Wagner. Also since signing to Sony he's trying to become a lot more crossover.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

jflatter said:


> I think he's a wonderful singer. I'm slightly worried about his career path. There is a lot of Verismo at the moment when he could be singing Wagner. Also since signing to Sony he's trying to become a lot more crossover.


I'd love to hear his voice in _Tristan_, but he's very consciously putting that off for a while. I don't want to see him go the wobbly way of your average would-be Heldentenor. Parsifal is perfect for him, and probably Siegmund too. I'm not aware that he's thinking about Siegfried or Tannhauser, but, again, he's probably taking it slowly.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Kaufmann in Parsifal would be bliss for me. I would buy that recording in a heartbeat.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I'd love to hear his voice in _Tristan_, but he's very consciously putting that off for a while. I don't want to see him go the wobbly way of your average would-be Heldentenor. Parsifal is perfect for him, and probably Siegmund too. I'm not aware that he's thinking about Siegfried or Tannhauser, but, again, he's probably taking it slowly.


He had a vocal crisis recently and seems to have come back like nothing happened. It probably put the fear of overuse into him.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> He had a vocal crisis recently and seems to have come back like nothing happened. It probably put the fear of overuse into him.


he is also cutting back on performances which I am glad that he is doing that. But he needs more studio recordings.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Albert7 said:


> Kaufmann in Parsifal would be bliss for me. I would buy that recording in a heartbeat.


Well, here it is:


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

MAuer said:


> Well, here it is:


Ah thanks for that ... I wonder how I can get that DVD into audio only so that I can listen to it on my iPod.


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

Albert7 said:


> Ah thanks for that ... I wonder how I can get that DVD into audio only so that I can listen to it on my iPod.


There was a radio recording and you maybe able to get from certain sites that sell radio recordings.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Albert7 said:


> Ah thanks for that ... I wonder how I can get that DVD into audio only so that I can listen to it on my iPod.


When you discover that in this production in Act 2 everybody is wading in an ocean of blood and that Good Friday looks more like Mars than the earth in spring you may be particularly glad to have audio only. I hope you can find it.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

jflatter said:


> There was a radio recording and you maybe able to get from certain sites that sell radio recordings.


Okay, thanks for the recommendation. I appreciate that direction.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> When you discover that in this production in Act 2 everybody is wading in an ocean of blood and that Good Friday looks more like Mars than the earth in spring you may be particularly glad to have audio only. I hope you can find it.


UGGGHHHH
Thanks for the warning.................


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

I don't know the first thing about Kaufmann. A while back, every time I logged in to Amazon, I was greeted by that close-up photo on the Wagner album cover. It looked like it was taken with a strong flash. I usually ignore media campaigns. I haven't heard anything further for quite a while, but I did notice that he appeared on some of the operas I was recently looking at. Nothing against him personally, but I haven't had the interest to hear him sing. I'm not into arias and I don't know what else he does. None of the albums ever caught my interest.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

brotagonist said:


> I don't know the first thing about Kaufmann. A while back, every time I logged in to Amazon, I was greeted by that close-up photo on the Wagner album cover. It looked like it was taken with a strong flash. I usually ignore media campaigns. I haven't heard anything further for quite a while, but I did notice that he appeared on some of the operas I was recently looking at. Nothing against him personally, but I haven't had the interest to hear him sing. I'm not into arias and I don't know what else he does. None of the albums ever caught my interest.


He's a fine, powerful tenor, maybe the best around at the moment, an intelligent musician, an excellent actor, and by widespread agreement one steaming hot babe- and gay-magnet (alas, married with children). If that part doesn't interest you the other stuff should still suffice to justify your attention.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> He's a fine, powerful tenor, maybe the best around at the moment, an intelligent musician, an excellent actor, and by widespread agreement one steaming hot babe - and gay - magnet (alas, married with children). If that part doesn't interest you the other stuff should still suffice to justify your attention.


No, that part doesn't interest me  but I did scan his catalogue last night. The only album that seems interesting to me is this one:









I can't find any information about it: track listing. I would also like to hear samples. I haven't looked on YT. A fine album of some Strauss wouldn't be out of place in my collection, since I have been adding a small number of lieder albums. It all depends on the choice of songs and the sound of the voice.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

brotagonist said:


> No, that part doesn't interest me  but I did scan his catalogue last night. The only album that seems interesting to me is this one:
> 
> View attachment 65917
> 
> ...


I haven't heard that one myself. The reviews were positive, as I recall.


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## Balthazar (Aug 30, 2014)

I am far from a connoisseur of Strauss lieder, but I enjoy that album a lot. The track listing:

1. Zueignung, Op. 10 No. 1
2. Nichts, Op. 10 No. 2
3. Die Nacht, Op. 10 No. 3
4. Wer hat's getan, Op. 10 No. 6 bis
5. Befreit, Op. 39 No. 4
6. Allerseelen, Op. 10 No. 8
7. Ruhe, meine Seele, Op. 27 No. 1
8. Cäcilie, Op. 27 No. 2
9. Heimliche Aufforderung, Op. 27 No. 3
10. Morgen!, Op. 27 No. 4
11. Freundliche Vision, Op. 48 No. 1
12. Ich liebe dich, Op. 37 No. 2
13. All mein Gedanken?, Op. 21 No. 1
14. Du meines Herzens Krönelein, Op. 21 No. 2
15. Ach Lieb, ich muss nun scheiden!, Op. 21 No. 3
16. Ach weh mir unglückhaftem Mann, Op. 21 No. 4
17. Die Frauen sind oft fromm und still, Op. 21 No. 5
18. Traum durch die Dämmerung, Op. 29 No. 1
19. Nachtgang, Op. 29 No. 3
20. Wozu noch, Mädchen, Op. 19 No. 1
21. Breit' über mein Haupt, Op. 19 No. 2
22. Schön sind, doch kalt die Himmelsterne, Op. 19 No. 3
23. Wie sollten wir geheim sie halten, Op. 19 No. 4
24. Hoffen und wieder verzagen, Op. 19 No. 5
25. Mein Herz ist stumm, Op. 19 No. 6
26. Ich trage meine Minne, Op. 32 No. 1
27. Sehnsucht, Op. 32 No. 2
28. Schlechtes Wetter, Op. 69 No. 5

His verismo album is also excellent, even if his mullet seems to say otherwise.









And if you're looking for more lieder, his Winterreise is top notch, benefitting (like the Strauss album) from the excellent accompaniment of Helmut Deutsch.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Balthazar said:


> His verismo album is also excellent, even if his mullet seems to say otherwise.
> 
> View attachment 65922


Well he _is _German, and they do like their mullets. My son (not German) just got the exact same cut this morning. Maybe it's coming back?


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> Well he _is _German, and they do like their mullets. My son (not German) just got the exact same cut this morning. Maybe it's coming back?


I think so and the way he wears it with his leather jacket makes him look stylish and quite outstanding... like a GQ cover.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

First English words he learned, "Pardon, I am indisposed."


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

hpowders said:


> First English words he learned, "Pardon, I am indisposed."


Ouch! :lol: I've seen brief interview clips and his English is immaculate, hardly even an accent. I hate to generalise about Germans again, but what they lack in stylish haircuts they more than make up for with their language skills.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Figleaf said:


> Ouch! :lol: I've seen brief interview clips and his English is immaculate, hardly even an accent. I hate to generalise about Germans again, but what they lack in stylish haircuts they more than make up for with their language skills.


I'm talking years ago, when he was taking "Evasive English Phrases 2.1" at Berlin Berlitz.


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## Balthazar (Aug 30, 2014)

.........................


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

hpowders said:


> First English words he learned, "Pardon, I am indisposed."


Sucker punched for the evening .


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## Retired (Feb 15, 2015)

With the modern day competition through so many electronic and digital avenues, todays singer must offe much more in many areas that were irrelevant in the past. IMO, VERY few singers today can rely alone on beauty of voice...there must be much more. While I respect the opinions of the proponents of the golden era of voice, the question must be asked if these singers could meet the demands of today. Audiences want to be moved, inspired, thrilled and inspired...visually, vocally and dramatically.
Before we comment on the perceived weaknesses of today's artists, we need to ask if those of yesteryear could meet today's expectations.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Retired said:


> With the modern day competition through so many electronic and digital avenues, todays singer must offe much more in many areas that were irrelevant in the past. IMO, VERY few singers today can rely alone on beauty of voice...there must be much more. While I respect the opinions of the proponents of the golden era of voice, the question must be asked if these singers could meet the demands of today. Audiences want to be moved, inspired, thrilled and inspired...visually, vocally and dramatically.
> Before we comment on the perceived weaknesses of today's artists, we need to ask if those of yesteryear could meet today's expectations.


Audiences "back then" were surely moved, thrilled, and inspired, and I'm not aware that the human face and form, much less basic human emotions, have changed. No doubt we expect a bit more in the acting department (although there have always been good and not so good actors), but I doubt that even a century ago beauty of voice was "enough" for most singers or audiences. There is undoubtedly an element of nostalgia in comparing the present with the past, but there is also a tendency to think ourselves more "advanced" or 'sophisticated" than earlier generations. Often it isn't a case of better or worse, but just different. How any particular singer of 1915 would fare in the operatic world of 2015 is a question we probably can't answer.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Retired said:


> With the modern day competition through so many electronic and digital avenues, todays singer must offe much more in many areas that were irrelevant in the past. IMO, VERY few singers today can rely alone on beauty of voice...there must be much more. While I respect the opinions of the proponents of the golden era of voice, the question must be asked if these singers could meet the demands of today. Audiences want to be moved, inspired, thrilled and inspired...visually, vocally and dramatically.
> *Before we comment on the perceived weaknesses of today's artists, we need to ask if those of yesteryear could meet today's expectations*.


Why do you think that singers of 'the past' were inadequate visually and/or dramatically? What does 'visually' even mean- good looks, the art of acting with the body? In the case of the visual element, there's not so much evidence from the pre talking movies era, though photographs can be interesting. Recordings from the very earliest days show some very powerful acting as well as some singers who didn't seem to think acting was part of the job description, and every shade of grey in between. One thing which has limited singers' expressiveness is the elevation of the conductor (and after that, the star director) above the singer: singers can now only express what they are permitted to, and this must limit dramatic as well as musical expressiveness. This diminution of the singer's role means that today's set up ironically carries a greater risk of encouraging uninspired performances than that of the mythical Olden Days when nobody ever thought of acting and merely stood stock still at the footlights improvising endless cadenzas.

Meeting today's expectations... there's certainly cause to think that many singers of the first ten years of the twentieth century (which I take as the closest thing to the 'golden era of voice' that you mention) would not be hired today, because they don't sound like the mostly very generic sounding singers who do get hired. National styles (as well as the diversity of individual approaches to singing that flourished within them) have disappeared and been replaced with a homogeneous international style. Since humans have not changed biologically since the nineteenth century, there must be many possessors of great or potentially great voices who do not 'meet our demands' of obedient generic sounding singers, and either don't get past the gatekeepers or never even think of a career in opera to begin with. It's something to consider when we bemoan the lack of suitable singers in a particular repertoire: its like asking why there are no petite, curvaceous supermodels. If only one look or sound gets hired, that's what the public gets. You can certainly characterize this as 'meeting today's expectations', but I don't think there's any mystery why potential stars and potential audiences alike take a good look at today's expectations and think 'Thanks, but no thanks'.


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## Retired (Feb 15, 2015)

> Meeting today's expectations... there's certainly cause to think that many singers of the first ten years of the twentieth century (which I take as the closest thing to the 'golden era of voice' that you mention) would not be hired today, because they don't sound like the mostly very generic sounding singers who do get hired.


No one today has the faintest idea how these voices sounded. What I hear with so many comments here is a nostalgic reverence more than anything else. Art and performance are living life forms..if they don't evolve, they die. Opera and the performing arts have many problems, but talent is not in the top ten and to sit around and quibble about who is best and lament the loss of the art form of 100 years ago would seem to me to be at best arm chair doodling.

As far as directors, producers and conductors controlling the "gate", I suspect it was always so. Read some history and you find composers even had certain singers in mind when they wrote the music. I'm sure that there were an equal number of "aficionados" decrying the lack of diversity and vocal decline 100 years ago. It must have been nice to sing in the "concert halls" of the day, funded and attended by the well heeled. All that has changed and the voices of today have been influenced by many factors not the least of which is the new economics of the business and a public that can be entertained 10 different ways by voice command.

95% of the opera in the world is performed in houses where you will not hear the vaunted voices which the experts so ably dissect here. Yet audiences keep coming back to Kansas City, Nashville, Ulm, Klagenfurt and Calgary to hear little known singers. This is where audiences are being built. This is where the real work of the business is being done. Very few fans of opera started by hearing Jonas Kaufmann or Fritz Wunderlich. Its these imperfect voices that are nourishing the art form we love by bringing in new fans. Ultimately this enables arm chair experts to sit at their computers and emote on the state of the business as seen from the lofty heights of international houses....a thought to keep in mind. The VAST majority of listeners wouldn't know a staccato from a glissando. It is the visceral, emotional and intimate nature of opera that sends audiences home fulfilled. We should be more concerned with that and less with how Mr Kaufmann's "ping" compares with history.

Opera is like wine, you either like it or you don't. The vintages are different...its a living thing and great years WILL come again.
If every Bordeaux vintage was the same as 1975, we would get bored quickly. Its best we appreciate them individually for what they are. The sun will NEVER shine again exactly as it did in 1975 and its best to get over it.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Retired said:


> No one today has the faintest idea how these voices sounded. What I hear with so many comments here is a nostalgic reverence more than anything else. Art and performance are living life forms..if they don't evolve, they die. Opera and the performing arts have many problems, but talent is not in the top ten and to sit around and quibble about who is best and lament the loss of the art form of 100 years ago would seem to me to be at best arm chair doodling.
> 
> As far as directors, producers and conductors controlling the "gate", I suspect it was always so. Read some history and you find composers even had certain singers in mind when they wrote the music. I'm sure that there were an equal number of "aficionados" decrying the lack of diversity and vocal decline 100 years ago. It must have been nice to sing in the "concert halls" of the day, funded and attended by the well heeled. All that has changed and the voices of today have been influenced by many factors not the least of which is the new economics of the business and a public that can be entertained 10 different ways by voice command.
> 
> ...


Of course we have an idea of how the singers of 110 years ago sounded, if they happened to make records. No nostalgia required. And of course there have always been gatekeepers: I was simply talking about the standards enforced by today's gatekeepers, rather than implying that no such people existed in the past.

I imagine most opera fans are drawn in by recordings rather than live performances, as those are more accessible. You could be right, but it makes little difference unless one's livelihood depends on getting bums on seats in front of a live opera.

If Kaufman can't be discussed in relation to his predecessors and in terms of his place in the evolution of tenor singing, then how can he discussed? (Especially as we've already dissected- figuratively- the haircut and heartthrob status.) And if you dislike 'armchair' commentators so much, why go on public forums at all?


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## Retired (Feb 15, 2015)

> Of course we have an idea of how the singers of 110 years ago sounded, if they happened to make records. No nostalgia required. And of course there have always been gatekeepers: I was simply talking about the standards enforced by today's gatekeepers, rather than implying that no such people existed in the past.
> 
> I imagine most opera fans are drawn in by recordings rather than live performances, as those are more accessible. You could be right, but it makes little difference unless one's livelihood depends on getting bums on seats in front of a live opera.
> 
> If Kaufman can't be discussed in relation to his predecessors and in terms of his place in the evolution of tenor singing, then how can he discussed? (Especially as we've already dissected- figuratively- the haircut and heartthrob status.) And if you dislike 'armchair' commentators so much, why go on public forums at all?


Good word!!! Do you really think that the voices recorded while bending over a metal "horn" to the tinkling of a piano reflect even 25% of the timbre, resonance, overtones, dynamics, and character of a voice? Please!!!! I respectfully submit that it is pure romanticism and nostalgia and powerful imagination that is filling in the rest. I do believe that many of these voices were very good but it is impossible to make any comparison on the basis of what is available.

If recordings are the avenue of introduction, why has there been a steady decline in recordings and a massive amount of support for outreach programs in every provincial organization (at least in North America). If we are depending on recordings to build audiences, we will lose. It is the magic of live performance in the provinces, by singers that no one here has probably ever heard of, that will embolden the young to support us.

Of course Kaufmann can be discussed. But ultimately any discussion of whether Renoir is better than Matisse is a lot of arm chair twaddle. There was fear expressed in another thread about the lack of diversity in opera, a standardization. I think when we start ranking "art" we feed right into that. Appreciate it for what it is...and you either go again or you don't. Dissecting it, judging it and ranking it puts it on the level of cuts of meat at the butcher shop and I find that boring. And BTW...forums are for a diversity of opinion, aren't they?

It could be that living in the land of pundits and experts, unsurpassed in the number of people making a living judging the efforts of others, I have reached my limit for this "art form". If so, I apologize...I would rather just appreciate art for what it offers rather than what it does not compared to something else.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Retired said:


> Good word!!! Do you really think that the voices recorded while bending over a metal "horn" to the tinkling of a piano reflect even 25% of the timbre, resonance, overtones, dynamics, and character of a voice? Please!!!! I respectfully submit that it is pure romanticism and nostalgia and powerful imagination that is filling in the rest.  I do believe that many of these voices were very good but it is impossible to make any comparison on the basis of what is available.
> 
> If recordings are the avenue of introduction, why has there been a steady decline in recordings and a massive amount of support for outreach programs in every provincial organization (at least in North America). If we are depending on recordings to build audiences, we will lose. It is the magic of live performance in the provinces, by singers that no one here has probably ever heard of, that will embolden the young to support us.
> 
> ...


You would be amazed at what the old recording horns could capture, as well as possibly disappointed by what they could not. Maybe check out the Historic Masters series of vinyl re-pressings, or the many excellent (if often over-filtered) reissues on Marston and other labels- or not, if you really aren't keen. I find early recordings usually fascinating and frequently frustrating, but always worthwhile.

No need to apologize, you sound like someone with interesting life experience and a very distinctive perspective. This thread is getting away from Kaufmann now (sorry) and if you would like to debate the relative merits of historical recordings versus new ones and/or live performances, you could always bump this interesting thread:

http://www.talkclassical.com/30658-do-you-have-problem.html

You could perhaps join forces with DavidA who was making similar points to yours, and _meine Wenigkeit_ could try to step into Moody's suit of armour. Could be fun... :tiphat:


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## Retired (Feb 15, 2015)

I get concerned that we focus too much on the voice...which to me is to miss the nature of the opera business today. I understand that from a purist's perspective, to compare and dissect may be interesting (although i find it to be somewhat sophomoric), in order for opera to prosper, we will need to offer far more than vocal excellence. Over 35 years, the 8-10 truly life altering performances I remember were often by artists that did not have the greatest voices or vocal powers. The one performance I refer to most often was a run of Tosca with Gobbi in his later years. We watched one Tosca and Cavaradossi of world repute come and go...all struggled to hold their own in the vocal and dramatic presence of the old master. The young Peter Dvorsky humbled the greats in a run of Werther, the aging Siepi rendered one cast after the next to "also sangs" in Don Carlo. 99% of our audiences don't care and don't know who Gigli was...they only know if the earth moved or not.

I find it strange that we can lament over homogenization while we also note the non typical aspects of this voice...the dark and baritonal middle, etc. For me its what makes it thrilling, distinctive and the top unexpected...but I always was a glass half full person.

Thank you Jonas...live long and prosper. 

I too revel in my favorite voices but those that were also my favorite performers I hold in even higher regard. To speak of John Vickers as a "voice" would be to do the man an injustice and those that experienced him live and up close and personal know what I mean.

So to tie this thread together, I believe that Jonas Kaufmann is a great performer, which has been repeatedly mentioned here, and where he stands vocally in the top 50 is irrelevant and to be determined by arm chair historians.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Let's enjoy Kaufmann for the joy that he brings us today and worry about the history books later on for sure. For we have lots of great singing to contemplate for a very long time.


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## WertherCharlotte (Mar 14, 2015)

(J Kaufmann is divorced :tiphat


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Is he? I know he and his wife separated last April, but I'm not sure whether or not there has actually been a divorce. In any case, I feel very sad for both of them and for their three children.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

He also came down with the flu after an "Aida" and canceled his only two Met performances of the season in the 1st week of March as Don Jose in "Carmen". They were the only 2 productions where the Met had sold out houses.


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## WertherCharlotte (Mar 14, 2015)

Yes, in interviews he often says that he cannot stay far away for too long from his family (which could mean his mother, sister, children..right?) It has been said on a few blogs that he has a girlfriend for almost 2 years now and you can read speculations about the MET Carmen like it was his turn to take the kids, the MET fees were too low, the gf did not want him to shave his beard for Don José... lol
Whatever the circumstances, cancellations always disappoint. Hoping we'll hear JoK and K Opolais in Manon Lescaut next year


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## WertherCharlotte (Mar 14, 2015)

Hello! Did any of you ladies & gents see in house or watch the Salzburg Cavalleria Rusticana / Pagliacci? What are your impressions?! :wave:


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

WertherCharlotte said:


> Hello! Did any of you ladies & gents see in house or watch the Salzburg Cavalleria Rusticana / Pagliacci? What are your impressions?! :wave:
> 
> View attachment 67939


Kaufmann with tattoos? I hope that they release this production on disc or downloadable version.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Could have done without that silly fake beard, especially since the man has shown no problems growing one of his own.


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## soundoftritones (Dec 24, 2014)

I have to agree with Couac Addict. I feel that Kaufmann does have his own very distinguished style that sets him apart from other tenors - for the better - in some of the pieces he sings, but I feel that others have a better voice/interpretation for most other pieces. 
For example, in Schubert's "Der Jäger", I feel like he's out of breath, rushing, and quite possibly doesn't have the lung capacity other tenors are capable of (?) (whether he does this short, ragged-breath style to add to the intensity of the hunt depicted in this piece or not, I just have a strong bias against this interpretation, unfortunately. ^^")


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

soundoftritones said:


> I have to agree with Couac Addict. I feel that Kaufmann does have his own very distinguished style that sets him apart from other tenors - for the better - in some of the pieces he sings, but I feel that others have a better voice/interpretation for most other pieces.
> For example, in Schubert's "Der Jäger", I feel like he's out of breath, rushing, and quite possibly doesn't have the lung capacity other tenors are capable of (?) (whether he does this short, ragged-breath style to add to the intensity of the hunt depicted in this piece or not, I just have a strong bias against this interpretation, unfortunately. ^^")


It's in too low a key for him. He should have taken it a key higher to get more tone on the low notes. He isn't out of breath; the manner is deliberate.


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## sabrina (Apr 26, 2011)

I am sure he is OK, as this thing happened 4 years ago, but what was the story with the lymph node removed from his chest? I like Kaufman a lot...I don't like to order singers in whatever quality row. He may not be the best tenor, but surely he is one of a kind, amazing..


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## Cesare Impalatore (Apr 16, 2015)

JK is a very good tenor, probably the best currently active one. He's a sophisticated musician with pretty powerful and darkly charismatic voice. His stage presence is very strong as well. I enjoy Kaufmann's singing in Verdi, Verismo and Wagner the most, not a fan of his Werther, though.


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

I just realized why I like Kaufmann: he's basically a baritone who can hit the high notes. I really don't have any use for tenors, just that you need them around to hit male high notes in an opera. If we had more tenors like him I would not have to sit through any boring tenors at all and could have all baritones, all the time.

(Yes, I'm being facetious but... kinda not.)


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

graziesignore said:


> I just realized why I like Kaufmann: he's basically a baritone who can hit the high notes. I really don't have any use for tenors, just that you need them around to hit male high notes in an opera. If we had more tenors like him I would not have to sit through any boring tenors at all and could have all baritones, all the time.
> 
> (Yes, I'm being facetious but... kinda not.)


Facetious or not, that's very funny. Thanks for a chuckle.

I tend to prefer a rich, dark timbre too - although, obviously, this sort of voice is not ideal in all repertoire. Kaufmann's been accused of darkening his voice artificially, but he claims his technique feels natural, and his voice has been holding up well, so I'm inclined to believe him. I think I would rather listen to him than to any other tenor currently active.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Facetious or not, that's very funny. Thanks for a chuckle.
> 
> I tend to prefer a rich, dark timbre too - although, obviously, this sort of voice is not ideal in all repertoire. Kaufmann's been accused of darkening his voice artificially, but he claims his technique feels natural, and his voice has been holding up well, so I'm inclined to believe him. I think I would rather listen to him than to any other tenor currently active.


Agreed and right now his voice is much better than Villazon even during his prime.


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## sonolucia (Jul 25, 2015)

Hi! When I listen to Kaufmann, I feel something.. something that I cannot describe well! And it is even hard since it is certain thing that I've never listen to when I listen to many old singers..  Anybody able to clarify what I feel?   

When he sings, his voice has that sound, which sounds very weird to me. For me, it sounds like the voice is stuck inside and does not come out of his throat. It's not about his voice itself, it's more about the way he sings. As I don't know the terms to describe voices, it's sad that I cannot properly describe how I feel. I can say that Hvorostovsky has the similar thing, but not as much as Kaufmann does (but I don't listen to Dmitri much either, because of the reason.) Also, for me, it sounds that he himself makes his true voice to sing more dramatic. Maybe it's because I personally love the old tenors who were praised for singing naturally....

I am not a hater of him, but that certain way I cannot describe, always made me hard to listen to many of his recordings. I finally saw him this year on stage. He was good-looking and he knew how to put the emotions on each songs. Everybody in the hall loved him, and as he's handsome and acts very well, I will also be happy to see him on opera stage again. But when I need to concentrate on the voice itself, his voice is just not my type..


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

sonolucia said:


> Hi! When I listen to Kaufmann, I feel something.. something that I cannot describe well! And it is even hard since it is certain thing that I've never listen to when I listen to many old singers..  Anybody able to clarify what I feel?
> 
> When he sings, his voice has that sound, which sounds very weird to me. For me, it sounds like the voice is stuck inside and does not come out of his throat. It's not about his voice itself, it's more about the way he sings. As I don't know the terms to describe voices, it's sad that I cannot properly describe how I feel. I can say that Hvorostovsky has the similar thing, but not as much as Kaufmann does (but I don't listen to Dmitri much either, because of the reason.) Also, for me, it sounds that he himself makes his true voice to sing more dramatic. Maybe it's because I personally love the old tenors who were praised for singing naturally....
> 
> I am not a hater of him, but that certain way I cannot describe, always made me hard to listen to many of his recordings. I finally saw him this year on stage. He was good-looking and he knew how to put the emotions on each songs. Everybody in the hall loved him, and as he's handsome and acts very well, I will also be happy to see him on opera stage again. But when I need to concentrate on the voice itself, his voice is just not my type..


I love Kaufmann and think he is a great artist as apart from his distinctive sound, his technique and his musical abilities his singing is always accompanied with an emotional depth and passionate interpretations. I don't think he has perfect technique, though. His crico-thyroid muscles don't co-ordinate as well as they could with his arytenoids meaning that some high notes slip back into his throat. This does seem to be improving and I have heard that he works continually at his technique, but this might explain what you hear.

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> I love Kaufmann and think he is a great artist as apart from his distinctive sound, his technique and his musical abilities his singing is always accompanied with an emotional depth and passionate interpretations. I don't think he has perfect technique, though. His crico-thyroid muscles don't co-ordinate as well as they could with his arytenoids meaning that some high notes slip back into his throat. This does seem to be improving and I have heard that he works continually at his technique, but this might explain what you hear.
> 
> N.


Kaufmann has had to work conscientiously at his technique since he was forced to reevaluate it after encountering difficulties early on. He's always been a serious artist and we can probably expect him to continue to exercise good sense and not overextend himself. Dramatic tenors are such a rare commodity, and so many who fancy they belong to that category wreck themselves on repertoire they should never touch - Otello, Tristan, Tannhauser, etc. - but Kaufmann has moved into heavy roles slowly. He's 46 and his voice sounds secure and tightly-knit, without a hint of a wobble. I was greatly impressed by this as I listened to this concert with the Boston Symphony, in which he sings arias and duets with one of our current "star" sopranos, Kristine Opolais:






Opolais is an attractive woman and an intense actress, but at 35 she is pushing her voice to and beyond its natural capacity. Isolde's "Liebestod"? She delivers here possibly the feeblest performance I've ever heard of it, and by the time we reach the strained and wobbly high C at the end of "O soave fanciulla" which ends the concert we know we're listening to a singer who isn't likely to be worth listening to when she reaches the age Kaufmann is now.

Kaufmann's good sense is expressed nicely in this interview in which he's asked about the role of Tristan:

Lundborg: What's happening with Tristan?

Kaufmann: Tristan will sit in his box for quite a while. It's not that I'm frightened of that part. I know that the third act is extremely demanding.
I believe I could sing it now because my voice is very solid, sustainable. I can sing for a long, long time without getting tired or stressed.
Tristan is also very low, and tenors often tend to force their voice in the middle register to be heard enough. That is also not necessary because I have a very long voice -- I can sing almost the bass register till Sarastro.

Lundborg: So, why not do it?

Kaufmann: When you open this Pandora's box of Tristan, you'll never get back to normal parts. All the houses will force you to do it, and that's what will kill you.

That interview was in 2013. I wonder what he's thinking now?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

http://www.gramophone.co.uk/classic...t-yourselves-be-deceived-by-the-decca-release

Interesting. Kaufmann has just disowned a new Decca release.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> http://www.gramophone.co.uk/classic...t-yourselves-be-deceived-by-the-decca-release
> 
> Interesting. Kaufmann has just disowned a new Decca release.


A man of integrity and independent mind who brooks no horsepuckey. I like him even more.


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> That interview was in 2013. I wonder what he's thinking now?


During his appearance in BBC's Desert Island Discs (February 2015) he said he will sing Verdi's Othello before Tristan. He is already engaged for Othello at the ROH.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Saving the best for last


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## Clayton (Nov 10, 2013)

GregMitchell said:


> http://www.gramophone.co.uk/classic...t-yourselves-be-deceived-by-the-decca-release
> 
> Interesting. Kaufmann has just disowned a new Decca release.


I think it's a bit cheeky of Decca to release this at the similar timing to the Sony. No wonder JK is a bit miffed


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I'm not a Kaufmann fan, but I'll buy his Meistersinger


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Clayton said:


> I think it's a bit cheeky of Decca to release this at the similar timing to the Sony. No wonder JK is a bit miffed


As much as I admire Kaufmann, let's not get carried away by this.
Decca is milking this because of commercial reasons
They ; Kaufmann / Decca left on bad terms, he had a very good contract and Sony snatch him away with even more money and promises .
So I do think there are two sides to this story .


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Itullian said:


> Saving the best for last


Really? You don't think he's going to do anymore work after Otello? Because, well VERDI is the best!!!


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Sonata said:


> Really? You don't think he's going to do anymore work after Otello? Because, well VERDI is the best!!!


One day the light will come shining through


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Sonata said:


> Really? You don't think he's going to do anymore work after Otello? Because, well VERDI is the best!!!


As true (or not ) as that may be, Jonas is not going to sing the whole bunch of Verdi operas .
Mark my words.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Pugg said:


> As much as I admire Kaufmann, let's not get carried away by this.
> Decca is milking this because of commercial reasons
> They ; Kaufmann / Decca left on bad terms, he had a very good contract and Sony snatch him away with even more money and promises .
> So I do think there are two sides to this story .


Sour grapes on the part of Decca, if you ask me.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Jonas Kaufmann and Kristīne Opolais star and Alain Altinoglu conducts Puccini's Manon Lescaut in Neuenfels production, to be streamed from Bayerische Staatsoper starting in just under an hour.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

mountmccabe said:


> Jonas Kaufmann and Kristīne Opolais star and Alain Altinoglu conducts Puccini's Manon Lescaut in Neuenfels production, to be streamed from Bayerische Staatsoper starting in just under an hour.


Thanks for mentioning that. I had frequent interruptions in transmission, but was able to see most of it. Having recently watched Neuenfels' "rat Lohengrin," I expected some unpleasantness here. I got it, though without vermin. Sets and costumes were stark and drab in shades of gray, the chorus was costumed and made up as ugly clowns, and there was no sense of the story's social milieu. The "message" - there's always a "message" - appeared to be that love has a tough time in a grim and hostile world. Thanks for that revelation, Herr Neuenfels.

In the midst of Neuenfels' echt-deutsch eurotrash silliness, Kaufmann and Opolais made the most of their parts, given the "concept." Both sang and acted with intelligence and passion. Still, for me, the stentorian heldentenor darkness of Kaufmann's voice, sounding like Siegmund on holiday in Italy, seemed a minor incongruity in Puccini, albeit overshadowed by the major incongruities of style the production created. We had the curiously unhomogenized spectacle of a 1731 French novel set to 1890s Italian music and staged in 2015 German black, white and gray, with barren sets, red clown wigs, and two people "realistically" pawing and clawing and rolling about to show postmodern audiences that they really, really love each other and would probably begin copulating as soon as the curtain came down. And then there was the massive crossbow-wielding swat team breaking down the doors to arrest one defenseless young woman and even pursuing her aboard ship. Apparently Neuenfels doesn't think Puccini's music is up to the job of inspiring our sympathy for her fate, so he has to make life's slings and arrows literal.

Evidently this sort of insulting shallowness has become business as usual in European theaters.


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## Balthazar (Aug 30, 2014)

^^^ That's nothing. I once saw a production where Manon and Des Grieux die of thirst... In the desert... Just outside of New Orleans!!! :lol:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Balthazar said:


> ^^^ That's nothing. I once saw a production where Manon and Des Grieux die of thirst... In the desert... Just outside of New Orleans!!! :lol:


This article explains the "desert of Louisiana."

http://www.roh.org.uk/news/louisian...nvenient-inaccuracy-in-puccinis-manon-lescaut

Obviously Manon should have been deported to New Mexico. Or maybe Greenland. Hypothermia can be just as effective as dehydration.


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## Balthazar (Aug 30, 2014)

^^^ Interesting article.

On the Neuenfels production, the New York Times gave it a quite sympathetic review at the start of its run last autumn.

Either I missed it, or the powers-that-be judiciously removed from the telecast the text on vegans and pigs mentioned in the article.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Balthazar said:


> ^^^ Interesting article.
> 
> On the Neuenfels production, the New York Times gave it a quite sympathetic review at the start of its run last autumn.
> 
> Either I missed it, or the powers-that-be judiciously removed from the telecast the text on vegans and pigs mentioned in the article.


Reviewers are ignorant and gutless, by and large. I think we've just come to take presumptuous silliness for granted. I mean, if that's all there is to see these days, why go out on a limb and risk your job at the Times?


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Thanks for mentioning that. I had frequent interruptions in transmission, but was able to see most of it. Having recently watched Neuenfels' "rat Lohengrin," I expected some unpleasantness here. I got it, though without vermin. Sets and costumes were stark and drab in shades of gray, the chorus was costumed and made up as ugly clowns, and there was no sense of the story's social milieu. The "message" - there's always a "message" - appeared to be that love has a tough time in a grim and hostile world. Thanks for that revelation, Herr Neuenfels.


Thank you for your comments. You made it further than I, but my issue was more with Puccini than Neuenfels.


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## WertherCharlotte (Mar 14, 2015)

In my humble opinion, BSO Manon L was not that bad in house - in nov 2014 -, the production lost in broadcast (weak sound balance, camera showing armpit and feet or Geronte licking Manon's fishnet stockings) not made for the screen, rat Lohengrin did better. 
Nevertheless, great music by Altinoglu, well sung & acted except maybe when DesGrieux is rolling on the floor after he met Manon in 1st Act :lol: 

Next is Fidelio! :trp:


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Is anyone watching the Fidelio from Salzburg? Franz Welser-Möst is conducting a new production by Claus Guth. Jonas Kaufmann is Florestan and Adrianne Pieczonka is Léonore.

The second act should begin in fifteen to twenty minutes (12:45 PM or 12:50 PM PDT).


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

As one might expect from Guth, this is not a very traditional production. Léonore is almost always on stage, often lip-syncing. She is also shadowed by mute, signing, less male-disguised double that is just as passionate.

The background wall for Act 1 may well be repurposed from Act 2 of Guth's Salzburg Nozze from 2006.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Something for Kaufmann fans


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

sospiro said:


> Something for Kaufmann fans


I have a great regard for Kaufmann as a singer and also as an actor. I have him on DVD in both Tosca and Carmen and he gives well sung and interestingly acted performances. Shame about the break up of his marriage though but afraid it is pretty common in the world he moves in.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> This article explains the "desert of Louisiana."
> 
> http://www.roh.org.uk/news/louisian...nvenient-inaccuracy-in-puccinis-manon-lescaut
> 
> Obviously Manon should have been deported to New Mexico. Or maybe Greenland. Hypothermia can be just as effective as dehydration.


Her death is boring anyway. I prefer more violent deaths.


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

Stumbled across this Don Carlo from 2007 with Kaufmann as the Infante...






Also features a pretty decent Rodrigo (Vladimir Stoyanov, one of my favorite Slavic Verdians).


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Sloe said:


> Her death is boring anyway. I prefer more violent deaths.


In that case New Guinea would have been a good choice. She could have been not only killed but eaten.


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## liloloperaluv (Apr 10, 2015)

MAuer said:


> Could have done without that silly fake beard, especially since the man has shown no problems growing one of his own.


Recently found this forum and like it better than most. FYI, the beard wasn't fake but it was dyed as was his hair. There are photos of him with fans after the performances showing the beard with more grey and no tattoos - both wash off.

I don't believe he would cancel performances because his girlfriend didn't want him to shave. He was visibly coughing at the Aida concert. I say that as one who had tickets for the NY Met Carmens. Terribly disappointed but sympathize with singers who are ill and do not want to risk long-term injury.


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## WertherCharlotte (Mar 14, 2015)

The infamous Vienna Tosca if anyone is interested  _(until YT police takes it down)_


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

WertherCharlotte said:


> The infamous Vienna Tosca if anyone is interested  _(until YT police takes it down)_


I am sure that the bootlegs are flying over the internet as we speak


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## WertherCharlotte (Mar 14, 2015)

Pugg said:


> I am sure that the bootlegs are flying over the internet as we speak


Indeed - oops speaking of bootlegs - have you watched the Vienna 2015 Werther?


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

I think Gheorghiu is saying to Kaufmann - "I'd like to remind you that this opera is called TOSCA!"


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Don Fatale said:


> I think Gheorghiu is saying to Kaufmann - "I'd like to remind you that this opera is called TOSCA!"


I think it would have been more truthful to the plot if the opera had been called Cavaradossi. It is Mario´s destiny that is of interest.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Sloe said:


> I think it would have been more truthful to the plot if the opera had been called Cavaradossi. It is Mario´s destiny that is of interest.


Agreed. As with Faust/Mefistofele, if another composer had already written an opera on the same story, it might have been so.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

WertherCharlotte said:


> Indeed - oops speaking of bootlegs - have you watched the Vienna 2015 Werther?


Not yet, was hoping from some reviews just like the Berlioz from Brussels


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Sloe said:


> I think it would have been more truthful to the plot if the opera had been called Cavaradossi. It is Mario´s destiny that is of interest.


Of interest to whom? I've never been interested in cardboard characters, especially tenors. I don't think Puccini was either.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Of interest to whom? I've never been interested in cardboard characters, especially tenors. I don't think Puccini was either.


Given the bounds of opera, Cavaradossi is not a cardboard character in my estimation.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Given the bounds of opera, Cavaradossi is not a cardboard character in my estimation.


All the main parts are the same, wonderful writing :tiphat:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Given the bounds of opera, Cavaradossi is not a cardboard character in my estimation.


"Given the bounds of opera" is a mighty big "given"! :lol:

You may know that when Verdi was contemplating _Tosca_ as a subject, Cavaradossi's political involvement was a larger part of it. Puccini pared him down as far as possible. It's up to the singer to give him some individuality. Cioni, standing before Gobbi in the Callas film, is a mouse before a lion. Kaufmann can't help doing better just by being his handsome, charming self, and his "E lucevan le stelle" is powerfully acted.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> "*Given the bounds of opera" is a mighty big "given"*! :lol:
> 
> You may know that when Verdi was contemplating _Tosca_ as a subject, Cavaradossi's political involvement was a larger part of it. Puccini pared him down as far as possible. It's up to the singer to give him some individuality. *Cioni, standing before Gobbi in the Callas film, i*s a mouse before a lion. Kaufmann can't help doing better just by being his handsome, charming self, and his "E lucevan le stelle" is powerfully acted.


Of course it's a mighty big given, opera being opera, I thought that was obvious! :lol:

That's a pretty unfair comparison, Cioni with Callas / Gobbi, two of the finest vocal actors ever! In the DVD I have Kauffmann is superb in both singng and acting. Obviously the main thread of the plot is between Tosca and Scarpia - the police chief's presence is even felt when he is dead - but it doesn't make the tenor a 'cardboard' character imo. Puccini's music sees to that!


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> "Given the bounds of opera" is a mighty big "given"! :lol:
> 
> You may know that when Verdi was contemplating _Tosca_ as a subject, Cavaradossi's political involvement was a larger part of it. Puccini pared him down as far as possible. It's up to the singer to give him some individuality. Cioni, standing before Gobbi in the Callas film, is a mouse before a lion. Kaufmann can't help doing better just by being his handsome, charming self, and his "E lucevan le stelle" is powerfully acted.


I've read that too. Puccini told his librettist, that, in his final hour, Cavaradossi must have thoughts only of Tosca, and really both Tosca and Scarpia are much more finely drawn characters than Cavaradossi. Even Puccini's most rounded tenor characters (Des Grieux and Rodolfo) for instance, play second fiddle to the soprano heroines. Puccini was all about the female characters, and it was the fates of the central female character that drew him to a libretto.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

GregMitchell said:


> I've read that too. Puccini told his librettist, that, in his final hour, Cavaradossi must have thoughts only of Tosca, and really both Tosca and Scarpia are much more finely drawn characters than Cavaradossi. Even Puccini's most rounded tenor characters (Des Grieux and Rodolfo) for instance, play second fiddle to the soprano heroines. *Puccini was all about the female characters, and it was the fates of the central female character that drew him to a libretto*.


Whether that is true or not it doesn't necessarily make the tenor parts 'cardboard'. If Puccini just wanted a cardboard tenor would he have written such a piece as "E lucevan le stella"?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Whether that is true or not it doesn't necessarily make the tenor parts 'cardboard'. If Puccini just wanted a cardboard tenor would he have written such a piece as "E lucevan le stella"?


Hear, hear :tiphat:


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Whether that is true or not it doesn't necessarily make the tenor parts 'cardboard'. If Puccini just wanted a cardboard tenor would he have written such a piece as "E lucevan le stella"?


I think we're over egging the pudding here, or over-analysing the point. Of course Puccini didn't _expect_ his tenors to be cardboard characters, and he would no doubt have _preferred_ that, like all his characters, the roles would be well acted . However there is little doubt that, in the vast majority of his work, it is the female charcters who have the greatest dramatic variety.

Compare that to Verdi, who wrote dramatically compelling and psychologically penetrating roles for both women and men. I think that is the point we are making. This was in response to a post suggesting that the opera should be titled Cavaradossi, as his journey was the most interesting. Tosca is the protagonist, the central character, and the one whom Puccini most identified with. if anything, Scarpia is the more interesting of the two men. After all, the opera opens with his theme, and actually it would make more sense to me if it ended with it. That it ends with the theme from Cavaradossi's _E lucevan le stelle_ seems to me to have more to do with Puccini not wanting to waste a good tune.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

If anyone's interested here is a link to the performance of Meistersinger from The Edinburgh Festival 2006 with Kaufmann as Walther. The opening couple of minutes have some interference but after that it sounds o.k.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> If anyone's interested here is a link to the performance of Meistersinger from The Edinburgh Festival 2006 with Kaufmann as Walther. The opening couple of minutes have some interference but after that it sounds o.k.


Some interference? 
But thank any way


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## BaritoneAssoluto (Jun 6, 2016)

Interesting because when he first came on the opera scene, he had a rather a more "mature" lyric-tenor sound. By mid-2000's that artificiality of over-darkening his voice, forced him become known as the "dramatic tenor" that he is known as today.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

BaritoneAssoluto said:


> Interesting because when he first came on the opera scene, he had a rather a more "mature" lyric-tenor sound. By mid-2000's that artificiality of over-darkening his voice, forced him become known as the "dramatic tenor" that he is known as today.


Absolutely. His Walther sounds rather nice.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BaritoneAssoluto said:


> Interesting because when he first came on the opera scene, he had a rather a more "mature" lyric-tenor sound. By mid-2000's *that artificiality of over-darkening his voice,* forced him become known as the "dramatic tenor" that he is known as today.


Many people say this, but Kaufmann himself says that trying to keep his voice "light and bright" was what brought on his vocal crisis, and that he then found the vocal production natural to him. So far as I'm aware, it has stood him in good stead over the past decade. I'm inclined to think he knows his own voice better than his detractors do.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Many people say this, but Kaufmann himself says that trying to keep his voice "light and bright" was what brought on his vocal crisis, and that he then found the vocal production natural to him. So far as I'm aware, it has stood him in good stead over the past decade. I'm inclined to think he knows his own voice better than his detractors do.


_thank you_! his voice doesn't sound "artificially dark" to me at all. with the exception of the occasional funky passaggio note, it sounds perfectly natural. a spinto tenor is supposed to have a darker, more well supported sound (in modern singing, we have lost touch with the very notion of high male voices supporting the bottom 2/3 of their voice at all lol)


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Many people say this, but Kaufmann himself says that trying to keep his voice "light and bright" was what brought on his vocal crisis, and that he then found the vocal production natural to him. So far as I'm aware, it has stood him in good stead over the past decade. I'm inclined to think he knows his own voice better than his detractors do.


Just bought a cd of him singing various arias. The Wintersturm from Walkure suites his dark voice immensely - best since Vickers I think. But the prize song from Mastersingers less so.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

It will be interesting to read the reviews of his upcoming Otello at the Royal Opera House. I think his timbre will suit the part very well. His high notes may be a bit lacking in squillo, but that was also true of Ramon Vinay, who was a powerful Otello. Domingo, in my opinion, didn't have an Otello voice at all (except compared to Roberto Alagna, the little fool), but made a strong impression through his dramatic skill. Even Olivier praised his portrayal. I expect Kaufmann will act it well too. I gather he will not be made up as a black man; that's considered racist now.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> It will be interesting to read the reviews of his upcoming Otello at the Royal Opera House. I think his timbre will suit the part very well. His high notes may be a bit lacking in squillo, but that was also true of Ramon Vinay, who was a powerful Otello. Domingo, in my opinion, didn't have an Otello voice at all (except compared to Roberto Alagna, the little fool), but made a strong impression through his dramatic skill. Even Olivier praised his portraya*l. I expect Kaufmann will act it well too. I gather he will not be made up as a black man; that's considered racist now*.


I must confess such PC nonsense leaves me gob smacked! What goes on on the stage is called acting - everyone knows it is not real. The fact Otello is a black man is woven into the libretto which becomes nonsense if he is portrayed as white. Now of course we are against caricaturing black people as in the Black and White Minstrels, but that is not what Otello is about. Of course we'll soon have PC crazies saying that Butterfly should only be played by a Japenese. Or should the Dutchman only be played by someone from Holland? Or Macbeth by a Scotsman? Just where do we stop?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> I must confess such PC nonsense leaves me gob smacked! What goes on on the stage is called acting - everyone knows it is not real. The fact Otello is a black man is woven into the libretto which becomes nonsense if he is portrayed as white. Now of course we are against caricaturing black people as in the Black and White Minstrels, but that is not what Otello is about. Of course we'll soon have PC crazies saying that Butterfly should only be played by a Japenese. Or should the Dutchman only be played by someone from Holland? Or Macbeth by a Scotsman? Just where do we stop?


Agree wholeheartedly. Some plead that there are black singers capable of singing Otello and that we ought to be hiring them instead of making white singers look black. Well, sure, if there are tenors who can do justice to the part and fill seats, they should be singing it, but not depriving Jonas Kaufmann of the opportunity to sing it. I doubt that it's black singers themselves who want this silly sort of "affirmative action." Sometimes I wonder who it is that does want it, and how their views get so much attention.

The director of the upcoming Kaufmann production says he wants to de-emphasize Otello's race: "Otello will not wear black make-up in this production. The production will focus on Otello struggling with questions of identity, having been uprooted and living in a culture that is ultimately foreign to him, rather than the question of race as such." Well, since everybody knows that Shakespeare's Otello is a "blackamoor," the fact will be "de-emphasized" by making everyone wonder why he looks white. Brilliant.

I seem to recall that Alagna didn't wear dark makeup when he butchered the part, so we had an Otello that neither sounded nor looked like Otello. But it's a time of "anything goes" in opera, and the nuttier the better.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

DavidA said:


> I must confess such PC nonsense leaves me gob smacked! What goes on on the stage is called acting - everyone knows it is not real. The fact Otello is a black man is woven into the libretto which becomes nonsense if he is portrayed as white. Now of course we are against caricaturing black people as in the Black and White Minstrels, but that is not what Otello is about. Of course we'll soon have PC crazies saying that Butterfly should only be played by a Japenese. Or should the Dutchman only be played by someone from Holland? Or Macbeth by a Scotsman? Just where do we stop?


I agree that Otello is not blackface minstrelsy, but having a white man portray a black man still was due to racism.

Shakespeare wrote _Othello_ and intended the character to be played by a white man because he lived in a time and place where it was illegal for black men to be on stage (and would be for another 100 years). We don't need to attribute any special racism to Shakespeare, but the practice of blacking-up was used because the system was racist. Similarly, Verdi's _Otello_ was premiered with a white singer blacked-up for the title role because La Scala (and other opera houses) didn't have black singers. The first black singer at La Scala wouldn't be for another 66 years. (No black singers appear with any major opera company until the 1920s). Again, blacking-up was not about mockery, but it was the result of systemic racism.

Using blackface to actively mock and belittle is certainly worse than making do within a racist system (as Verdi and Shakespeare did), but neither are great. And that racist system is less powerful now but it is by no means gone. We have black singers on major operatic stages now, at least sometimes. And some black men have sung Verdi's Otello - including Ronald Samm and Michael Austin. Not in major houses, but for professional opera companies.

In this time I certainly consider using blackface at all to be have changed to being, by itself, active mockery and belittlement. A reminder not just of minstrelsy but also of times when by law, or just plain racism blacks were not allowed on stage. This is also a big difference between _Otello_ and _Holländer_ or _Macbeth_. (Though these are even far less (to not at all) about race, and in the latter almost everyone is Scottish). I'm less sure of my feelings on _Madama Butterfly_, mostly because I don't really know the opera. Yellowface might not have quite as long, strong, or as horrible a history as blackface, but it's also disgraceful, and I have no interest in seeing a Cio-Cio San yellowed up.

The fact that Otello has darker skin than those around him is barely mentioned in the libretto, and could certainly be read poetically. It is far less important, specifically, in the Verdi than in the Shakespeare. Verdi put more emphasis on Otello as an outsider - now that is woven into the libretto.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The historic absence of black singers in opera (which has gradually been ameliorated) and the choice to present Otello as white are two different issues. I see the first as a genuine problem with real implications of racial bias, and the second as frivolous political correctness. As for Butterfly, she is Japanese, and is normally and appropriately made up to look Japanese. On the other hand, Grace Bumbry achieved a certain fame in the 1960s as the "black Venus" in _Tannhauser_ at Bayreuth. It would have been silly to argue that a goddess in Medieval Germany could not have dark skin. We just need to be sensible here.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I'm afraid sense goes out of the window in these cases. I recently saw Hamlet from the RSC with black actors in an African setting. There was no question of reverse racism and the whole thing was very well done even if it did take a bit of swallowing that 'Denmark' was peopled with Africans! I certainly don't think anyone could complain that having a black actor play a Dane was disrespectful to Danes!
But as I say people seem to forget that actors are ACTING - they are playing a part. The libretto calls Otello a Moor and Desdemona refers to his 'dusky temples'. He is a dark skinned man! Kaufmann is not a dark skinned man and he is also not a wife murderer. He is PLAYING the part of a Moor who murders his wife. Hence as all actors wear make up why can't Kaufmann's make up be dark? Seems quite obvious to me. There is no hint of racism in this - it is just acting. The idiocy of saying: "The production will focus on Otello struggling with questions of identity, having been uprooted and living in a culture that is ultimately foreign to him, rather than the question of race as such." I mean, why does he struggle with identity? Because he is a dark skinned man in a white society! Portraying him as a white man robs the whole thing of the point Shakespeare was trying to make.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Just listened to Vesti la guibba (Pag) and the Flower Song from Carmen. The guy is a serious talent.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Setting _Hamlet_ in Africa is not reverse racism, because reverse racism is not a thing. The reason using I don't like the idea of using blackface in _Otello_ is that it lines up with and has the same result as the historical systemic exclusion and oppression of black men on the stage (and in society in general).

The Royal Shakespeare Company has been part of this historical oppression, and they have certainly not been involved in oppressing Englishmen, or their erasure from the stage.

If it hadn't been illegal for black men to be on stage, if it they hadn't been kept from major opera stages until less than a hundred years ago - along with many other types of oppression that were much worse - then there'd be less to no concern.

Beyond that, most of the disagreement has to do with production styles. I am certainly OK with poetic (etc) productions in opera and other theater. I'm fine with _Hamlet_ with no Danes. I'm fine with an Otello marked as different in a way other than skin color, and reading those references as poetic.

Verdi did not include this part, but in the Shakespeare Iago says to Brabantio "Even now, now, very now, an old black ram, Is topping your white ewe," and if we can take the sheep part as poetic, why not the colors as well?


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

I am now trying to decide how I'd feel about a production that had Jonas Kaufmann dressed as a black ram.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

mountmccabe said:


> The reason using I don't like the idea of using blackface in _Otello_ is that it lines up with and has the same result as the historical systemic exclusion and oppression of black men on the stage (and in society in general).
> 
> The Royal Shakespeare Company has been part of this historical oppression, and they have certainly not been involved in oppressing Englishmen, or their erasure from the stage.
> 
> If it hadn't been illegal for black men to be on stage, if it they hadn't been kept from major opera stages until less than a hundred years ago - along with many other types of oppression that were much worse - then there'd be less to no concern.


When you say that making up Otello to look less Caucasian, and thus distinguishing him from his native Venetian wife and colleagues (as called for by the story), "lines up with and has the same result as the historical systemic exclusion and oppression of black men on the stage (and in society in general), "I honestly don't understand what you mean. I respect the fact that some people may have unpleasant associations with certain artistic choices, but I don't think most people are looking at a production of _Otello_ as exemplifying the history of blacks in the theater. Your expression "using blackface" is loaded; this opera is not a minstrel show in the old South, and no one mistakes it for one. It has never occurred to me, looking at, say, a portrait of Birgit Nilsson wearing brown makeup as Aida, that she was "using blackface." Few women, I dare say, are less African in looks than Nilsson, and it's unlikely that anyone who looked like her ever walked among the pyramids of ancient Egypt. This is theater, and these are specific stories. Aida is Ethiopian, enslaved by the Egyptians; Otello is a moor, a foreigner to Italian culture; Cio-Cio San is a Japanese geisha, on the other side of a cultural abyss from the man who seduces her. Portraying these people as visibly different from those around them is directly to the point of the stories in which they participate.

I simply am not persuaded that evoking histories of racism external to the plots of these works of fiction is relevant, or that blatant efforts to eliminate race from artistic contexts in which it naturally occurs are anything but admissions that race is something to be uncomfortable about. On the other hand, if we are made uncomfortable by witnessing the plights of these characters as their operas actually portray them, that's precisely the sort of discomfort we should welcome. A society that can't accept a Caucasian dressed up to play a negro, or an American made up to impersonate a Japanese - _that's_ the society that has not come to terms with race.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

mountmccabe said:


> I am now trying to decide how I'd feel about a production that had Jonas Kaufmann dressed as a black ram.


Enlighten us why?


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## BaritoneAssoluto (Jun 6, 2016)

"because reverse racism is not a thing..." uh, what? How did that play into Opera now, lol? 

Unless I'm mistaken Hamlet wasn't black and neither was Iago. The second and third statements I'm not going to speak on because again, they borderline disrupt this great thread of the Tenor Jonas Kaufmann.

So how do you feel about Jonas in this current scene of Opera? Do Opera need him more than ever or is his time done?


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I simply am not persuaded that evoking histories of racism external to the plots of these works of fiction is relevant, or that blatant efforts to eliminate race from artistic contexts in which it naturally occurs are anything but admissions that race is something to be uncomfortable about. On the other hand, if we are made uncomfortable by witnessing the plights of these characters as their operas actually portray them, that's precisely the sort of discomfort we should welcome. A society that can't accept a Caucasian dressed up to play a negro, or an American made up to impersonate a Japanese - _that's_ the society that has not come to terms with race.


It is a bit strange that nobody have any complaints about European singers dressing up to play Gypsies in Carmen and Il Trovatore if there is any group we should feel guilt for it is Gypsies.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Sloe said:


> It is a bit strange that nobody have any complaints about European singers dressing up to play Gypsies in Carmen and Il Trovatore if there is any group we should feel guilt for it is Gypsies.


Don't give them ideas. We'll have Carmen as a slinky lounge singer advertising cigarettes on TV in the '60s (oops - that was Julie London: "Why don't you settle back and have a full-flavored smoke? Settle back with a Marlboro! Make yourself comf'table whenever you smoke - have a Marlboro cigarette!").


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Don't give them ideas. We'll have Carmen as a slinky lounge singer advertising cigarettes on TV in the '60s (oops - that was Julie London: "Why don't you settle back and have a full-flavored smoke? Settle back, and have a Marlboro! Make yourself comf'table whenever you smoke - have a Marlboro cigarette!").


Whatever.
I guess it is mostly because those who go on about such things are Americans and in America Gypsies are more like fantasy characters. The thing is in England at Shakespeare´s time or Italy during Verdi´s lifetime all non white persons were fantasy characters. There were not Moors to exclude from the society.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

This discussion has been interesting, and I'm glad it has remained civil. I agree that it has gotten quite tangential to opera, and even more tangential to Jonas Kaufmann. I am going to strictly limit my own replies, and try to step away. I'm happy to discuss further via pm, but I feel like it's not a good idea to keep going here, in a thread about Jonas Kaufmann.



Woodduck said:


> On the other hand, if we are made uncomfortable by witnessing the plights of these characters as their operas actually portray them, that's precisely the sort of discomfort we should welcome. A society that can't accept a Caucasian dressed up to play a negro, or an American made up to impersonate a Japanese - _that's_ the society that has not come to terms with race.


I absolutely believe that the United States - and many other cultures - have not come to terms with race. I agree that in an ideal society there would be no problem with blackface, yellowface, or whiteface. But pretending we are in that society is not a way to bring it about, it's a way of continuing the status quo.



Sloe said:


> It is a bit strange that nobody have any complaints about European singers dressing up to play Gypsies in Carmen and Il Trovatore if there is any group we should feel guilt for it is Gypsies.


When Verdi had to move _Gustavo III_/_Una vendetta in dominò_ to the United States as _Un ballo in maschera_ he changed Ulrica from a gypsy woman to a black woman. What was important was that she was an exotic and mystical outsider, not what specific type.



Pugg said:


> Enlighten us why?


The Jonas Kaufmann as a black ram bit was my attempt at a joke, acknowledging that much of the discussion was off-topic. At first I was going to say I was fine with it, but then I really was questioning it. I'd now say that it depends on how it was done; I'd appreciate the slight distance of dressing everyone in animal costumes, but it'd still need to be done carefully so as to not just be the same thing.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

How about Jonas in a leopard suit?


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

This ...









reminds me of ...


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> How about Jonas in a leopard suit?


I'm pretty sure I watched that stream from Salzburg, and really liked it.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

sospiro said:


> This ...
> 
> View attachment 85853
> 
> ...


I prefer the curtains. (Are you in the window treatment business?)


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

sospiro said:


> This ...
> 
> View attachment 85853
> 
> ...


and this.......both cute and cuddly


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DarkAngel said:


> and this.......both cute and cuddly


So glad this thread is seriously back on track.

I'm reminded of a story about Johann Strauss, who was such a fantasy object for females in his day that he used to pass out clippings from a curly-haired black dog to satisfy their desire for a piece of him.


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## Ginger (Jul 14, 2016)

Sorry I just have to post something a little bit nearer to the topic... don't feel disturbed.  By the way the Strauss-story is quite funny 

What Kaufmann makes special in my opinion is that he is able to sing so many different parts. He is good at Wagner AND Verdi AND Puccini AND Mozart.

But I actually don't like his piano. In my ears its not clear and shiny enough and then it seems to me as if his voice hasn't been warmed up entirely before he entered the stage. Sometimes it gets better during the evening. Furthermore I'm not a fan of his timbre, but well that's my problem I suppose.

I found something quite interesting about Kaufmann. He was on German TV with the German 'Schlager'-singer Helene Fischer performing 'Es muss was Wunderbares sein'.






I think he shouldn't have done this... Their technique of singing is SO different.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Ginger said:


> Sorry I just have to post something a little bit nearer to the topic... don't feel disturbed.  By the way the Strauss-story is quite funny
> 
> What Kaufmann makes special in my opinion is that he is able to sing so many different parts. He is good at Wagner AND Verdi AND Puccini AND Mozart.
> 
> ...


On this forum everyone can have his or here's own opinion.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Pugg said:


> On this forum everyone can have his or here's own opinion.


Indeed. It's art and everyone is entitled to their own opinion.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

*Out- October -6 th*

​*Jonas Kaufmann: Dolce Vita*
Normal and De Luxe edition.

1. Caruso
2. Mattinata
3. Parla più piano
4. Passione
5. Un amore così grande
6. Il canto
7. Voglio vivere così
8. Catari', Catari' (Core 'ngrato)
9. Ti voglio tanto bene
10. Non ti scordar di me
11. Fenesta ca' lucive
12. Musica proibita
13. Parlami d'amore Mariù
14. Torna a Surriento
15. Volare
16. Rondine al nido
17. Con te partirò
18. Il Libro dell' Amore


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

mountmccabe said:


> I agree that Otello is not blackface minstrelsy, but having a white man portray a black man still was due to racism.
> 
> Shakespeare wrote _Othello_ and intended the character to be played by a white man because he lived in a time and place where it was illegal for black men to be on stage (and would be for another 100 years). We don't need to attribute any special racism to Shakespeare, but the practice of blacking-up was used because the system was racist. Similarly, Verdi's _Otello_ was premiered with a white singer blacked-up for the title role because La Scala (and other opera houses) didn't have black singers. The first black singer at La Scala wouldn't be for another 66 years. (No black singers appear with any major opera company until the 1920s). Again, blacking-up was not about mockery, but it was the result of systemic racism.
> 
> ...


Othello was not of the Black race. He was a Caucasian from Morocco, unless I am severely mistaken. He was just as Caucasian as an Italian. Many Mediterranian people have dark skin. I have a friend from Libya who has pale tan skin.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Othello was not of the Black race. He was a Caucasian from Morocco, unless I am severely mistaken. He was just as Caucasian as an Italian. Many Mediterranian people have dark skin. I have a friend from Libya who has pale tan skin.


The thing is that in Shakespeares time and even in Verdi´s time it was common to call everyone from Africa and everyone that was darker than an Italian Moors. Whatever there should be some sort of darker make up for Othello to show that he is different.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Sloe said:


> The thing is that in Shakespeares time and even in Verdi´s time it was common to call everyone from Africa and everyone that was darker than an Italian Moors. Whatever there should be some sort of darker make up for Othello to show that he is different.


I guess I was imposing a modern perspective on people with a more parochial view of the racial delineations of Africa. Thanks for that insight People didn't get around so much then.


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## Madeleine (Sep 17, 2016)

This is hilarious


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Madeleine said:


> This is hilarious


Not as hilarious as you first post, lurking for instant banning.


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## Madeleine (Sep 17, 2016)

I was referring to a photo that was posted - not sure if my post ended up up in the wrong place? Apologies if it did.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Kaufmann cancels again.

http://slippedisc.com/2016/09/breaking-jonas-kaufmann-cancels-rest-of-the-month/


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Pugg said:


> ​*Jonas Kaufmann: Dolce Vita*
> Normal and De Luxe edition.
> 
> 1. Caruso
> ...


He looks really happy on that cover.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Sloe said:


> He looks really happy on that cover.


Even more important, in about a week I can tell you how it sounds.


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## Ginger (Jul 14, 2016)

sospiro said:


> Kaufmann cancels again.
> 
> http://slippedisc.com/2016/09/breaking-jonas-kaufmann-cancels-rest-of-the-month/


Oh. What a pity. All Meistersinger at BSO with replacement for me then.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

sospiro said:


> Kaufmann cancels again.
> 
> http://slippedisc.com/2016/09/breaking-jonas-kaufmann-cancels-rest-of-the-month/


He's taking to much work on!.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Pugg said:


> He's taking to much work on!


Possibly, but he will know his own capabilities and would have been confident that he could do these. I hope it's just overwork and not something more serious.


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## liloloperaluv (Apr 10, 2015)

*Kauffman at Napoli*

I watched the live stream from Naples of the Il Mattino-sponsored concert and by the second song you could start to hear weak/hoarse notes in the middle and lower notes. He kept going through 6 songs. You could tell he was in trouble.

It also looked & sounded like a terrible sound setup and he couldn't hear himself. By the last song his voice was weak 
but he hit the high note at the end. He was in a terrible position with the Italian PM and govt officials, glitteratti attending. As close to a "command performance" as it gets. He had done a class/lecture with 1 song in the morning and several interviews (video). That was his last performance. Did the hemorrhage happen during the concert? Nobody wants to say that. I don't know if the RAI video is still online. The live stream was gone from YouTube within 30 minutes. It was heartbreaking for this loyal and devoted fan. That he is recovering is a blessing. He is an amazing artist.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

​
*Mahler: Das Lied von der Erde*

Jonas Kaufmann (tenor)

Wiener Philharmoniker, Jonathan Nott
Out April 7th


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Pugg said:


> ​
> *Mahler: Das Lied von der Erde*
> 
> Jonas Kaufmann (tenor)
> ...


Thanks for the heads-up Pugg. Now on my wish list.


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## Scott in PA (Aug 13, 2016)

Pugg said:


> ​
> Wow. Is he singing all 6 songs? Three of the 6 songs are traditionally song by a mezzo (or baritone). Otherwise, I never saw a CD cover that ignored a major performer who sings more that half the symphony like this!


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## Scott in PA (Aug 13, 2016)

I don't think I've heard anyone sing _Das Trinklied vom Jammer der Erde_ better than Jonas Kaufmann in this Youtube clip:






He possesses the dramatic and lyric qualities, the light and dark timbre, the wide-ranging dynamics and tone necessary to sing this difficult song. Truly virtuosic!

I'm at a loss as to why this performance (as far as I know) is not released on DVD. All three tenor songs are on Youtube. The mezzo was Anne Sophie von Otter and none of her three songs are uploaded. Very mysterious.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Scott in PA said:


> Pugg said:
> 
> 
> > ​
> ...


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Pugg said:


> Scott in PA said:
> 
> 
> > Yes he's singing the whole part himself.
> ...


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> Pugg said:
> 
> 
> > That's going to be very interesting indeed.
> ...


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

Pugg said:


> Barbebleu said:
> 
> 
> > It is a live recording from Vienna last year.
> ...


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## Scott in PA (Aug 13, 2016)

_Yes he's singing the whole part himself. _

Well, one can never have too much Jonas.

I await the day he sings _Tristan *UND* Isolde_...


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Scott in PA said:


> _Yes he's singing the whole part himself. _
> 
> Well, one can never have too much Jonas.
> 
> I await the day he sings _Tristan *UND* Isolde_...


I don't think that is going to happen very soon, Otello first.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Scott in PA said:


> _Yes he's singing the whole part himself. _
> 
> Well, one can never have too much Jonas.
> 
> I await the day he sings _Tristan *UND* Isolde_...


I think fans of Kaufman should hope he never touches Tristan. I, & many colleagues think it would be more than he could handle. It would shorten his amazing career imho.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> I think fans of Kaufman should hope he never touches Tristan. I, & many colleagues think it would be more than he could handle. It would shorten his amazing career imho.


He's been very cautious about taking it on. He's scheduled for a concert performance of act 2 in Carnegie Hall next year. We'll see how that goes.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> He's been very cautious about taking it on. He's scheduled for a concert performance of act 2 in Carnegie Hall next year. We'll see how that goes.


He's wise to present the role to the public that way, rather than try to trot out the whole role in a staged production. I hope it goes well.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> I think fans of Kaufman should hope he never touches Tristan. I, & many colleagues think it would be more than he could handle. It would shorten his amazing career imho.


And yet he's studying very hard on it, let's hope on a recording at least.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

In my amateurish opinion Waldemar Kmentt sounds like Jonas Kaufman. This is a good thing as he is Lyonel on my new Martha (Flotow) recording. Tell me if you think there is much similarity in the voices (bear in mind the better sound quality of the more-recent Kaufmann recording below):


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## MusicBear88 (Jun 14, 2017)

I've heard Kaufmann range from stunning to pretty terrible, depending on the role. I saw him live as Faust at the MET, and he had wonderful control the whole time, including a top C in the big aria that was nicely tapered. René Pape outsang him (and the soprano) when they were together, though, one of the few basses who can do such a thing. His Verdi Requiem with Barenboim is quite good, not in the same category as young Pavarotti with Solti, but still very respectable. I've watched a lot of excerpts, and it seems that when he gets too high too heavy, the voice begins to shut down, and his tone is completely wrong for the Italian Tenor from Rosenkavalier, especially when they made him shovel down a plate of spaghetti between the verses!

In Wagner, Siegmund and Walter seem to be good roles for him. I hope that he doesn't go for Siegfried or Tristan too soon, if at all!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MusicBear88 said:


> In Wagner, Siegmund and Walter seem to be good roles for him. I hope that he doesn't go for Siegfried or Tristan too soon, if at all!


Kaufmann will be trying out Tristan this season by singing Act 2 in concert with the Boston Symphony. Isolde will be Camilla Nylund and Andris Nelsons will conduct.


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

ON Sunday October 15th BBC4 are broadcasting the recent Otello from the ROH which was the debut of Kaufman in the title role.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Kaufmann will be trying out Tristan this season by singing Act 2 in concert with the Boston Symphony. Isolde will be Camilla Nylund and Andris Nelsons will conduct.


His voice seems to be taking on a more baritonal timbre as time passes. It really wouldn't surprise me if he went down the Ramon Vinay road in the not too distant future.


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## davidglasgow (Aug 19, 2017)

Barbebleu said:


> His voice seems to be taking on a more baritonal timbre as time passes. It really wouldn't surprise me if he went down the Ramon Vinay road in the not too distant future.


Kaufmann gave Don Alfonso at try in Soave sia il vento from Cosi fan tutte





I thought that the Dramatic Tenor > Baritone shift was relatively straightforward too having heard Vinay's baritone records but between Domingo's change of repertoire and this track from Kaufmann it seems that being baritonal as a tenor does not necessarily mean you have an easy facility with the lower notes. I enjoy hearing Domingo but it has admittedly been pretty controversial

I notice too that Villazon is booked to sing Pelleas in Berlin next May and Papageno next July in Baden-Baden: always interesting to hear these experiments


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Belowpar said:


> ON Sunday October 15th BBC4 are broadcasting the recent Otello from the ROH which was the debut of Kaufman in the title role.


I did see the firsts part, was late and that, bad it was not as bad as I thought it would be.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Anybody know if this DVD has English subtitles? Amazon's listing only says French, and I cannot find a back image big enough to read the details.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Fritz, I have that on blu-ray & it does have English subs


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> Kaufmann will be trying out Tristan this season by singing Act 2 in concert with the Boston Symphony. Isolde will be Camilla Nylund and Andris Nelsons will conduct.


That works for me, I could do without the rest of Tristan


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Bonetan said:


> Fritz, I have that on blu-ray & it does have English subs


My only reservation is that I have seen sets where a different release may have subtitles or not. In this case, being a fairly recent release, one would hope the subtitling of the BluRay is the same as the DVD. Leave it to Amazon to throw confusion in two ways: Only stating French and making a tiny back cover picture.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Fritz Kobus said:


> Anybody know if this DVD has English subtitles? Amazon's listing only says French, and I cannot find a back image big enough to read the details.


My copy says: Deutsch, *Englisch,* Französisch, Italienisch


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Fritz Kobus said:


> My only reservation is that I have seen sets where a different release may have subtitles or not. In this case, being a fairly recent release, one would hope the subtitling of the BluRay is the same as the DVD. Leave it to Amazon to throw confusion in two ways: Only stating French and making a tiny back cover picture.


I'd be astonished if it doesn't have English subs.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)




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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Fritz Kobus said:


>


Who could refuse his _ganzes Herz?_ So where did she run off to? To someone better-looking in the wings?


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

. . . . . . . . . . .


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Fritz Kobus said:


>


He's good but evidently not quite good enough to keep the one he loves from running off. Must. Try. Harder.  I'm guessing that Pavarotti or some other famous tenor might have had better success with Ms. Lovely. But I love these kinds of songs.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Fritz Kobus said:


> Anybody know if this DVD has English subtitles? Amazon's listing only says French, and I cannot find a back image big enough to read the details.


I note Kaufmann is due to sing this at the Met which is being broadcast in three weeks


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

DavidA said:


> I note Kaufmann is due to sing this at the Met which is being broadcast in three weeks


Yes, I have it and the subtitles are in your choice of Italian, English, French, or German. I haven't watched it yet though!

Kind regards, :tiphat:

George


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

https://vocalwisdom.com/not-how-to-sing-opera-part-2/

I would love to hear some of your thoughts on this post. It's not about Jonas Kaufmann specifically, but he is a one of the singers mentioned, and his technique is featured prominently. The section about Kaufmann is about 15 paragraphs in. Here's a snippet:

"The most common is the practice of "opening" the throat to create a darker timbre. In reality, what is happening is the singer is dropping the tongue, trapping the resonance deeper in the throat and applying extra pressure on the larynx.

Probably the most famous example of this condition now is the tenor Jonas Kaufmann. He is a very talented singer that is establishing himself as the top tenor of the time. But he is certainly not a model of natural function. Many can hear his obvious distortion of his resonance toward the dark end of the spectrum.

He does this by forming the resonators, primarily with the root of the tongue, to emphasize the back and lower resonance of the throat. These are important parts of the resonance system, but only parts. They should be balanced with the higher/brighter resonances as well.

This fixed resonance condition creates a limitation of an artificially dark, dramatic tone all of the time. In the roles of Wagner that he is now doing this actually is not too disturbing. I listened to a recording of Die Walküre from last spring and it was the first time I wasn't repulsed (maybe too strong of a word) by his tone..."

For the record, I'm not a fan of Kaufmann's singing.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Fascinating interview. Especially like the part about gummie bears.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

SixFootScowl said:


> Fascinating interview. Especially like the part about gummie bears.


The lady who makes this series is very interesting, perhaps they all on You Tube. 
Zeinab Badawi is her name .


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

SixFootScowl said:


> Fascinating interview. Especially like the part about gummie bears.


 Gummie bears while singing... Hmmm. But only the baby ones, of course.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Bonetan said:


> NOT How to Sing Opera – Part 2 | Vocal Wisdom
> 
> I would love to hear some of your thoughts on this post. It's not about Jonas Kaufmann specifically, but he is a one of the singers mentioned, and his technique is featured prominently. The section about Kaufmann is about 15 paragraphs in. Here's a snippet:
> 
> ...


I'm not a fan of Kaufmann either. It's a shame about his technique as I think that if he had learnt proper release and really developed his natural instrument he could have been a really good tenor. But I find his throaty, constricted singing very unattractive. 

I also just want to make sure that nobody misunderstands the quote you posted. Opening the throat is good and essential when done properly, the problem is when you're not opening the whole throat and effectively swallowing any resonance that you produce. Kaufmann is guilty of this.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> Gummie bears while singing... Hmmm. But only the baby ones, of course.


I wonder if he ever lost one while singing?


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

SixFootScowl said:


> Fascinating interview. Especially like the part about gummie bears.


The woman is now doing a special about La Scala Milan, very intresting.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I don't really put him in contests as I don't think he'd get much positive voting from this crowd. I'm actually fine listening to him and he is so attractive I would enjoy him live or on video, but I would much rather hear earlier singers . I have only seen him in Wagner videos and I enjoyed him. The only big name Wagnerian tenor I heard live was Domingo and it didn't change my life. I also actually really liked Leonard Warren who had a very darkened sound and is not very popular here.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I don't really put him in contests as I don't think he'd get much positive voting from this crowd. I'm actually fine listening to him and he is so attractive I would enjoy him live or on video, but I would much rather hear earlier singers . I have only seen him in Wagner videos and I enjoyed him. The only big name Wagnerian tenor I heard live was Domingo and it didn't change my life. I also actually really liked Leonard Warren who had a very darkened sound and is not very popular here.


Warren's voice is darkened, a little thick, but far from the woffy, ingolata mess of Kaufmann's. Despite his thick sound he still had an amazing instrument, especially in his prime.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I don't really put him in contests as I don't think he'd get much positive voting from this crowd. I'm actually fine listening to him and he is so attractive I would enjoy him live or on video, but I would much rather hear earlier singers . I have only seen him in Wagner videos and I enjoyed him. The only big name Wagnerian tenor I heard live was Domingo and it didn't change my life. I also actually really liked Leonard Warren who had a very darkened sound and is not very popular here.


I pretty much agree with all of this. I can enjoy Kaufmann in suitable rep, and despite his idiosyncracies find his dark, baritonal voice more attractive than that of most other present-day tenors who may sing more "correctly." As far as technique goes, he is 53 years old, and he's held up quite well through decades of singing strenuous roles, with no trace of a wobble as far as I know. Such durability is not a consequence of poor technique. Some technical faults are clearly more serious and determinative than others.


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