# Non-musical prejudices that keep/kept you from some music



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

We usually dislike music because of music. But do you sometimes tell yourself "no! I won't listen to this!" before you even start to listen for the first time? Something that you've heard about composer, piece, performer? Something that you imagination told you and you didn't want to try to learn if it's true or not? 

I had a lot of problems with Mahler. Because of ALL OF YOU ********!  I came to this forum as a newbie, knew only Mozart etc and was surprised that no one talks about this stuff. I just saw the same, unknown to me names over and over again. And one of them appeared most frequently. Mahler. In latest purchases: always milions of posts like "sup, today I've purchased Mahler's 9th by Zimbabwe National SO and 587233298128 other recordings of Das Lied von blablablaaa". He was everywhere while there was no Mozart at all. I thought "who is this Mahler anyway? Why do they talk about him all the time instead of some good stuff? To the hell with this guy, I won't even touch his CD". It prevent me from listening to him for months. To tell the truth I could take a easy breath only after Mirror Image was banned for good, he talked about him the most. Ach, Mirror Image! So it was with Ravel - when I once asked for some recommendations of early romantic music he recommended me big, really big set of Ravel and Debussy. And I got it before I've learned that it's not what I've asked for. Was like "wut? this is romantic music? really?". So I rejected Ravel for some time. 

What else? Actually I strongly hate Barenboim. I disliked his performance from the musical point of view just for once (played some Chopin too fast), but in general it's all about the fact that in one of his Tristans und Isoldes he casted the most terrible and repulsive Isolde ever. I could stabb him for this. I think I will. Where's the knife... okay, see ya, I'll write to you from jail.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Ach, I can also recall one more thing, I'll tell you before I go to the airport and catch my plane to Barenboim. I really couldn't push myself to listen to Bartók for some time because of this photo:










But can you blame me?


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

I've never really suffered from anything like that :/

I do have one thing that was kind of half-musical/half-not-musical. Basically, in my adolescence (which was only a few years ago!) when I discovered 'classical music', I originally liked a bit of Mozart and then some Beethoven, but when I came across Brahms, he had a great effect on me. A _profound_ effect - it would be pointless trying to summarise it here. Anyway, because of the immense connection I felt with him and his music, I developed a rather shallow loyalty to him and when I came across the great (and rather misleading) Brahms vs. Wagner war, I point-blank decided that I would listen to _no one_ on Wagner's side and only people on Brahms's. It's actually probably held my exploration of music back for quite a bit! Although it does mean I have amassed a fair deal of Brahms's and his allies' music. To this day, even when I try, I still don't see the beauty in Wagner's music - but I think that's because there simply isn't any


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## sara (Jan 11, 2010)

Hehe Aramis I will try and shut my mouth about Mah… you know who when I'm around you. 

Speaking as a newbie to classical music I try not to let other people's negative prejudices influence what I listen to. Just because one person doesn't like it doesn't necessarily mean I won't. Although if someone says 'listen to this piece, it's utterly amazing' it might encourage me to listen to whatever they're recommending.

When I first started listening to classical someone once recommend I stay away from watching Seiji Ozawa conduct (the facial expressions and movements were a bit too much this guy). Well that may have been all well and good for that guy but boy if I hadn't taken that remark with a pinch of salt I would've missed out on some great performances b/c I now think Maestro Ozawa's conducting is absolutely tremendous.

I do have one minor prejudice though which is sort of unrelated to the music and would probably be considered immature to many. I have trouble watching performances when conductors use 'toothpick batons'. While I'm aware that watching a performance (whether it be on tv or live) isn't solely about the conductor's movements from the footage I've seen of conductors using 'toothpicks' they always end up looking silly and this can sometimes distract me from the performance or put me off watching it altogether (although I'd still listen to it or look at something else).

I would rather see a conductor use their hands alone to conduct rather than watching one waving around a Crayola like a little kid who's overdosed on Orange Tang.

I also can't help but giggle at very short-legged dogs like Corgi's and Daschunds when they walk although that's b/c they look adorable.

Maybe these two prejudices are connected?


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## Andy Loochazee (Aug 2, 2007)

Aramis said:


> To tell the truth I could take a easy breath only after Mirror Image was banned for good, he talked about him the most. Ach, *Mirror Image!* So it was with Ravel - when I once asked for some recommendations of early romantic music he recommended me big, really big set of Ravel and Debussy. And I got it before I've learned that it's not what I've asked for. Was like "wut? this is romantic music? really?". So I rejected Ravel for some time.


Sadly it it looks like you were just another victim of someone whose knowledge was clearly deficient and who provided lame advice.

But I am tempted to ask how come you accepted advice from someone who had only been listening to classical music for a couple of months, a fact he openly admitted to. When he recommended Debussy and Ravel in response to your request for advice on Romantic composers, I can't see why it wasn't it obvious to you that neither of these was a Romantic composer. A very simple Wikipedia search would have told you that.

It would appear that there have been numerous references on this Forum to the _ArkivMusik_ website which lists hundreds of classical music composers and their most popular works. In general, places like that are far more reliable as sources of solid, objective information of the type you requested than the kind of hit-or-miss answers you tend to find on most Forums. For example, I could easily rattle off a long list of "greatest works" by all of the "greatest composers", but I can't be bothered to do so. Why bother when it would very soon just get buried beneath tons of other threads? One could spend the whole time simply regurgitating the same information time and time again.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Polednice said:


> To this day, even when I try, I still don't see the beauty in Wagner's music - but I think that's because there simply isn't any


Well youre wrong :angry:

I think I still have some prejudices against renessaince and early baroque music.. how can I overcome them?


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## Andy Loochazee (Aug 2, 2007)

emiellucifuge said:


> I think I still have some prejudices against renessaince and early baroque music.. how can I overcome them?


Regards Renaissance music, try some Byrd (Mass for Five Voices), and Palestrina (Missa Papae Marcelli). For early baroque, Monteverdi is the man. One of the greatest composers ever. Try Vespers 1610. If you don't like any of this you have problems that only time will cure.


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## Fsharpmajor (Dec 14, 2008)

Aramis said:


> Something that you've heard about composer, piece, performer?


I was always resistant to the idea of Britten because of his rumoured paedophilia, but this Wikipedia article made it clear to me that, although he was attracted to young boys, he wasn't a vile predator:

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britten's_Children*


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## Il Seraglio (Sep 14, 2009)

I think I still have some prejudices against James Levine and this is probably my first time admitting to it. His was the worst performance of Tristan und Isolde I had ever heard, bar none. The prelude in particular was abysmally slow. When it comes to Mozart, he tries to get it to sound as Romantic as possible while the orchestra plays at blistering speeds. Plus his conducting style and body language seems eccentric for its own sake at times. Admittedly, I enjoyed his performance of Berlioz' La Damnation de Faust (although I might have been distracted by the technically dazzling stage direction), but I get the feeling there is more risk than reward in buying his records.

In terms of composers, well... Tchaikovsky was one that took me a while to come around to and shake off my stuffy attitude before I realised that the 'dreamy' escapism is all part of his charm. I still can't stomach Swan Lake, the Violin Concerto or the Romeo & Juliet overture though. I think I shunned Prokofiev for a long time too, dismissing him as little more than a Soviet apparatchik who wrote consigned himself to living in the USSR, writing music to please the state. It didn't help that I was forced to listen to him in school also. But I must admit, I am really starting to love his chamber works, particularly for piano.

I don't think I've ever harboured any anti-Mahler prejudices, it's just that I have a lot of difficulty appreciating his music at times, due to the length of his symphonies and his weird, unusual way of developing themes. I would go so far as to say I actively dislike his first symphony. Maybe I'm not yet ready to give into the huge emotional demand that Mahler places on the listener, even though I enjoy other 'bombastic' composers from the 19th century such as Bruckner, Liszt and Wagner.


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## Fsharpmajor (Dec 14, 2008)

I've always been somewhat prejudiced agains Mozart, because when the film _Amadeus_ was at the height of its popularity you never seemed to hear anything on the radio *but* Mozart. And I have never entirely gotten over it, even though I've tried. There are certainly some Mozart pieces that I, a bit begrudgingly, admit that I like. But _Ein Kleine Nachtmusik_ still makes me see red.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Oh, another one (which may be surprising given my very overt Romantic leanings) is Chopin - I _never_ listen to his music, however beautiful it may be. One (admittedly irrational) prejudice is against the fact that he almost entirely composed for piano solo. But as well as that, his music seems to have a special charm for being what you turn to if you want 'pleasant, relaxing, easy listening'. I am especially sick of his nocturnes - never again!


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> But as well as that, his music seems to have a special charm for being what you turn to if you want 'pleasant, relaxing, easy listening'.


That's definitively not true and you should confront this idea to reality. And not by listening to the nocturnes, for God's sake! (second piano sonata, first piano concerto?)


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Aramis said:


> That's definitively not true and you should confront this idea to reality. And not by listening to the nocturnes, for God's sake! (second piano sonata, first piano concerto?)


I know I should probably listen to the sonatas, but I can't stand the concertos either. There seem to be few redeeming features about his music! Besides, if he's so great, why does _no one_ ever talk about him on here


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## Il Seraglio (Sep 14, 2009)

Fsharpmajor said:


> I've always been somewhat prejudiced agains Mozart, because when the film _Amadeus_ was at the height of its popularity you never seemed to hear anything on the radio *but* Mozart. And I have never entirely gotten over it, even though I've tried. There are certainly some Mozart pieces that I, a bit begrudgingly, admit that I like. But _Ein Kleine Nachtmusik_ still makes me see red.


I guess I'm lucky for not being old enough to remember the 80's.

You should listen to more of Mozart's vocal music. I love his piano concertos and symphonies, but can see why they might seem a bit 'schlager' to some people. His operas and masses are his main strong point.


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## kmisho (Oct 22, 2009)

Il Seraglio said:


> In terms of composers, well... Tchaikovsky was one that took me a while to come around to and shake off my stuffy attitude before I realised that the 'dreamy' escapism is all part of his charm. I still can't stomach Swan Lake, the Violin Concerto or the Romeo & Juliet overture though. I think I shunned Prokofiev for a long time too, dismissing him as little more than a Soviet apparatchik who wrote consigned himself to living in the USSR, writing music to please the state. It didn't help that I was forced to listen to him in school also. But I must admit, I am really starting to love his chamber works, particularly for piano.


Russian and near-Russian has been at the top of my list from the beginning.

As much as I love Tchaikovsky, I have to admit he comes and goes. Even if you dislike everything else, you should give his 4th and 6th symphonies the college try. He could extremely sad, but it's hard for me to imagine anyone who likes classical at all disliking the 3rd movement of the 4th with the pizzicato strings.

I see how one could get the impression that Prokofiev was a soviet hack but it was not that way at all. One mystery to me is why he seemed to operate without any obvious constraints while Shostakovich lived in fear of being disappeared by Stalin. Anyone who doubts the integrity of Prokofiev need only listen to his 5th Symphony. The 3rd movement (as one critic accurately put it) is "unapologetic about its outpouring of feeling." I recommend the Leonard Slatkin - St Louis Symphony version from 1993, which if I remember correctly won the Grammy for the best classical album of the year.

On to my own prejudices. I have one major one that's purely musical. Mozart and Haydn, among others, were fond of a grace note that truly gets under my skin. This is where the grace note is on the minor 3rd of a chord and slides into the major 3rd. Every time I hear this grace note my ear tells me that the piece has switched into the minor key and I expect it to stay there. Then it turns out to be a grace note and the piece suddenly jumps back into the major key. This drives me bananas. If I could hear the high classical composers with these grace notes removed, I know I would enjoy them more.


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## kmisho (Oct 22, 2009)

Polednice said:


> I know I should probably listen to the sonatas, but I can't stand the concertos either. There seem to be few redeeming features about his music! Besides, if he's so great, why does _no one_ ever talk about him on here


Do you know the Etudes? very diverse.

Opus 10 no. 6 is anything BUT pleasant, relaxing, easy listening. It drips with heartfelt sadness.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Il Seraglio said:


> You should listen to more of Mozart's vocal music. I love his piano concertos and symphonies, but can see why they might seem a bit 'schlager' to some people. His operas and masses are his main strong point.


In your opinion. In mine his orchestral music is a major strong point. I'd rather hear an early symphony or even an early concerto by him than an early opera or early mass I expect.


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## TresPicos (Mar 21, 2009)

I have to admit that I was prejudiced against Saint-Saëns for a long time, most of all since he hated Debussy, but when I heard his 5th piano concerto, I had to accept that he actually had his moments.

I doubt that I will ever want to listen to Gesualdo, though, for obvious reasons.


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## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

TresPicos said:


> I doubt that I will ever want to listen to Gesualdo, though, for obvious reasons.


Thanks for mentioning him. I had never read about Gesualdo but after skimming through his wiki page, I might have to check his stuff out. Why did no one make an opera about his life?

Nothing non-musical has ever really put me off listening to anything I think could be even slightly good. However, it could possibly encourage me to try something out I wouldn't normally listen to.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

I think this accusation against Prokofiev is blasphemous to my ears.

Soviet composers including Prokofiev were indeed repressed and occasionally forced to write 'revolutionary' music 'in the spirit of the people' etc.. but this is mostly prevalent in the more publich orchestral works. Chamber music was a medium with which the composer could get away with a lot more.
Prokofiev suffered his share of hardships under Stalin's regime, I do not think he deserves the disrespectful label connecting him to the regime or suggesting that his life was easy in any way.

Part of the charm or intrigue of his orchestral music is that you have to dig deep to find his original intentions. For example, he publicly announced that the 5th symphony is a celebration of the human spirit. After many listens and some rudimentary work on the score it becomes clear that this is likely not his true intent. 

I think this calls for its own thread!


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## Ravellian (Aug 17, 2009)

I'm kinda prejudiced against Mendelssohn and Saint-Saens because I have heard they are very traditional and backward-looking in their approaches to composition. It's just boring listening to something from the mid-19th century that sounds like it should be from the late 18th century.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

I've discovered another prejudice!  I never like listening to arrangements (even famous ones) of original compositions because I feel it defies the composer's original intentions. For example, I would never be seen listening to Ravel's orchestration of _Pictures at an Exhibition_, nor would I ever wish to listen an orchestral version of Brahms's _Hungarian Dances_ when they were written for piano duet. If a composer himself provides a piece in multiple forms, then I don't mind, but it's still frustrating! I like there to be just one version :/


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## graaf (Dec 12, 2009)

Bartok part made me laugh 
No one should be surprised I don't like to say that I listen to classical music, people might think I hate underwear


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## andruini (Apr 14, 2009)

You guys do talk about Mahler a tad too much, to agree with Aramis..


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

I have a prejudice against French and Russian music. 

French - simply because I don't like either the language or the literature or the traditional "romantic" stereotype of that country (by the way, my very first opera 5 or 6 years ago was Carmen, I could hardly wait until the heroine got killed and it was over. It turned me off the opera for a long time) 

And Russian comes across to me as too down-to-earth, nothing noble or exalted or beautiful. I know this prejudice cuts me off quite a wide array of music, but I think there is more than enough music from other countries for a lifetime of exploration.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Most of the romantic era. Everyone else seems to talk about it constantly. I don't have the patience to listen to these 10+ minute movements constistently where some parts get really boring. I don't understand why Baroque and Classical seem to get neglected a little bit here. And btw the Romantic Era also reminds me of my dad and his love for the tuba. I know there are some composers during that era don't fit the normal ideas of the Romantic Era though.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

I have a prejudice against things like music for the royal fireworks, or water music (both by Handel) because it reminds me of the inbred kings and queens that probably didn't give two ***** about the actual music being played, but just wanted some lovely stuff to accompany their 1% type activities. lol


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

I also have a prejudice against *some* (and only some) Scandinavian music because some of it reminds me too much of Lord of the Rings or D&D or something.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

violadude said:


> I also have a prejudice against *some* (and only some) Scandinavian music because some of it reminds me too much of Lord of the Rings or D&D or something.


Which?! Tell me! I wanna hear it!


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## mensch (Mar 5, 2012)

Ah prejudices, I've got quite a lot of them and some them apply to music.

I used to make a lot of disparaging remarks about Liszt, mainly because I believed he represented a vein of Romanticism (together with Berlioz and later Strauss and Wagner) dissimilar to the delicate lyricism of Chopin, Schubert, Mendelssohn, et. al. Now this is partly true of course, but listening to the complete, massive collection of Liszt works by Leslie Howard I have come to appreciate Liszt. A lot of his music possesses the fine qualities I previously only identified in the aforementioned composers. But the bravura Liszt, which sparked the Lisztomania, is a side I'm enjoying more and more now (with moderation, of course).

As for Strauss and Wagner, they're both composers I can't enjoy, for musical reasons and non-musical ones. Partly, because Wagner always seemed to posses a terrible character and because of his childish campaign to destroy Felix Mendelssohn. An added problem for me with both Strauss and Wagner is the fact that they lived in a time when the anti-semitism of the 19th century came to a horrible climax in the Second World War. Richard Strauss was still active during the Second World War and may or may not have detested the atrocities of Hitler Germany, but his music still has a bit of a taint in that regard.

Lastly, the "Carmina Burana" by Carl Orff. Often, when you ask somebody who's not that well versed in classical music about his favourite piece of classical music he or she will point out the genius of the "Carmina Burana", by which they always mean the "O Fortuna" movement. A childish reason, no doubt, but that's why I absolutely loathe the "Carmina Burana". I mean I know you shouldn't judge the quality of a piece of music based on whether or not it has become a cliché, but I have a hard time remaining objective about the "Carmina Burana".


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## Stargazer (Nov 9, 2011)

I'll be honest, it's hard for me to listen to Bruckner sometimes just because he seems really creepy lol


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

I can't say that I've ever reacted against a composer's music because of anything I knew about the composer (I just don't see the relevance) but I confess to being allergic to popular reputations. So, I do steer clear of Malcolm Sargent, Yehudi Menuhin and Kathleen Ferrier - to name but three - and I positively relish my iconoclasm. 

I think it's fair to say I'm not the only person who doesn't admire Sargent. Of Menuhin it was once said (during his lifetime) that, if you stopped fifty people in the street and asked them to name a great classical violinist, they would all say Menuhin and, if you asked fifty classical violinists, none of them would. As for Ferrier, I think my antipathy is as much due to her "plummy" "contralto" voice as it is to the mawkish reverence accorded her merely because of her untimely death.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Aramis said:


> Ach, I can also recall one more thing, I'll tell you before I go to the airport and catch my plane to Barenboim. I really couldn't push myself to listen to Bartók for some time because of this photo:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'll prejudice you further, while saying (I just did somewhere else) the artist is NOT their work.

Bartok composed and practiced in the nude. TMI, I'm sure


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