# Atonal music with violin



## jurianbai (Nov 23, 2008)

Most of my listening is a violin related music (string quartet, concerto) and I found that my rejection to atonal music is due to this aspect. The reason is the violin sound in recording make the atonal music something like a torture to ear. See early string quartet talks thread about violin sound 'phenomenon' in recording. I like to make a dare discussion : *Is violin NOT the best medium for atonal music ?*

In comparision I have not much problem with atonal music in other instrument. I enjoy most of Listz (if he counted as atonal composer) works > PIANO, and Stravinsky (ditto) eg. his Symphony of Wind Instruments > Woodwind. I'm not remember any Cello pieces I ever heard in atonal mode but I guess that would be a bit better than violin.

Discussion please?


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## Il Seraglio (Sep 14, 2009)

I'm not sure I would class Stravinsky's Symphony of Wind Instruments or _anything_ by Liszt as atonal, but if you find something like Schoenberg's string quartets or Violin Concerto abrasive, you should try his Piano Concerto. It is every bit as dry, if not moreso. Personally, it's my least favourite of his twelve-tone works.


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2010)

Well, Liszt did write a "Bagatelle without tonality," and a lot of his works are pushing the boundaries, but then so do a lot of other people's before Schoenberg, including Wagner and Scriabin.

Technically, I suppose you could argue that the Stravinsky you mention is atonal, but I doubt anyone would argue that very passionately or convincingly! Of course, that brings up the whole issue of what, exactly, atonality is. What exactly do you mean when you use that word?

I can't think that instrumentation really makes any difference as to whether one can listen to and enjoy an atonal piece or not. That is, atonal pieces for string quartet are really no more or less listenable than atonal pieces for piano or winds. (Your mention of string sound sounds like almost any non-classical listener talking about string music, especially violin. Apparently, many people really do find the sound of the violin to be screechy, no matter what the style of music.


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## jurianbai (Nov 23, 2008)

Yap the term itself is confusing. Here a list of what I will addressed as 'atonal' , some are 'least' and some I would say in full 'atonal' mode. And in short, these are the works that I stuck with, and I suspect it is because of their atonality played with violin that I dislike :

String Quartets :

George Enescu SQ no.1 & no.2
Shostakovich 
Bartok
Ernest Bloch SQ no.1 & 2
Schoenberg SQ 1,2,3,4
Benjamin Britten, no.3
and many other minor composers

Of these names only Bartok and Shostakovich that I dare to listen for their other works. I found that I can enjoy Bartok's Piano Concerto no.2 and the chamber works like Contrast for Violin, Piano and Clarinet (Sz 111). For Shostakovich , his Cello Concerto are one that I found 'easy' to listen.


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2010)

Well there you go, then. "Atonal" is not so much a confusing term as it is a questionable one.

And your use of it is highly idiosyncratic. I'm not sure that any of these works could be called atonal, though some of them have bits that are non-tonal. And a couple are serial. Most of them are just in plain old keys, though they all do stretch the limits of tonality. But as for that, what tonal piece doesn't? Tonality has been a thing composers have been stretching ever since it was a thing.

I suspect it's something else you're responding to, not any putative atonality.


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## jurianbai (Nov 23, 2008)

That make me need to review what the official "atonal" music refer to. Let me ask back a question, can you proposed a simple piece that illustrated 'atonal', a youtube video ? And a 'serialism' music also please?



> I'm not sure that any of these works could be called atonal, though some of them have bits that are non-tonal.


I maybe using the word in a very loose interpretation and in danger to be wrong to catch up with conversation. In my mind, some of Listz, Stravinsky, and also Ravel got some bit of this 'music'. And piece mentioned before is heavily applied that.

editted: the discussion in this thread http://www.talkclassical.com/8178-wagner-sunset-dawn.html suggested a description of 'atonality' music similar to what I've in mind.


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## Head_case (Feb 5, 2010)

jurianbai said:


> Yap the term itself is confusing. Here a list of what I will addressed as 'atonal' , some are 'least' and some I would say in full 'atonal' mode. And in short, these are the works that I stuck with, and I suspect it is because of their atonality played with violin that I dislike :
> 
> String Quartets :
> 
> ...


Haha.

As far as the string quartet medium goes, Schoenberg, Block and Britten are minor composers. Enescu is strange however, isn't he? There's a kind of emotional tension in the air when his string quartets are played - tension without resolution. I still don't understand his string quartets....after 15 years of listening to them. Funny enough, I had it on this morning before going to work. As if somehow that would make me feel better 

Their works add nothing substantial to the corpus of string quartet medium; neither French turn of the century innovation; nor Russian lyricism; no Polish mysticism; nor transcendental Hungarian folklore. Just German Panzer notes blasting out brittle shrapnel near vocalisations saying "Aren't I soooo impressive?!"

I'm not a fan of theory-worship in music, and although atonal music (Gorecki's 3 string quartets might come into this category for you) can be superlative and mind-blowing, too often, it risks becoming derivative, of the very theory it tries to espouse, and too over-intellectualised, to the point of being as emotionally nurturing as a desert storm with a hail of notes being fired across one's head.

In another 50 years, the new generation will be looking back at the 'interesting' experiments which didn't go right with atonalism. It will be as exciting as reviewing 1970's psychedelic carpets with orange swirls, mottled with repetitive patterns of bits, all congealed together, seemingly in order-disorder, but ultimately, a kind of order which makes nausea more of a concrete and tangible experience


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## Romantic Geek (Dec 25, 2009)

If there is one instrument that isn't really fit for "atonal" music (for now, let's bar the discussion about what atonality is - I'm talking about anything that doesn't have a tonal center, so serialism is included)...

it would be the voice.

I've heard too many atonal recordings for voice that flat out botch up parts. Yes, some are easier than other pieces, but I think there are restrictions to what the voice can do in an atonal environment.


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2010)

jurianbai said:


> That make me need to review what the official "atonal" music refer to. Let me ask back a question, can you proposed a simple piece that illustrated 'atonal', a youtube video ? And a 'serialism' music also please?
> 
> I maybe using the word in a very loose interpretation and in danger to be wrong to catch up with conversation. In my mind, some of Listz, Stravinsky, and also Ravel got some bit of this 'music'. And piece mentioned before is heavily applied that.
> 
> editted: the discussion in this thread http://www.talkclassical.com/8178-wagner-sunset-dawn.html suggested a description of 'atonality' music similar to what I've in mind.


jurianbai, I think my point was more along the lines of questioning the validity of the term generally. Although along the line, I did say something like this: "if 'atonal' means anything, then these pieces you mentioned are not atonal." Or perhaps this, "most theorists would not use these works to illustrate atonality."

As for a youtube example, we run into the problem you refer to by using the word "official." Well, there is no "official" definition of atonality. There are at least three categories, a small one, often referred to as "free atonality," a larger one that includes dodecaphony and serialism, and an even larger one that is just simply anything that's not tonal. So take your pick!! (My point about your examples was that most of the pieces you mentioned are in keys, i.e., tonal, however "stretched" that tonality might be. The ones that are not tonal are serial, which could be considered a kind of systematized atonality.)

Here are two pieces by Anton Webern, one a nontonal but not serial composition for string quartet called "Six Bagatelles." The other is a full-on serial composition called "String Quartet."

Of course, the problem with using these to illustrate "atonality" and "serialism" is that they're both by the same guy. But no single youtube clip will give a good idea of variety. These two are only a place to start. Check out Varese, too. And George Searle and Roberto Gerhard and Nikos Skalkottas and Egon Wellesz and and and.... (Get all* of Wellesz's symphonies and you can watch him move from a post-Brucknerian romanticism to a post-Schoenbergian serialism. Or even cheaper--as they all fit on two CDs--Goffredo Petrassi's eight concerti for orchestra, which follow a similar arc.)

*at least try to get a hold of the disc that couples nr. 2 and nr. 9. Put on the last few minutes of nr. 2 and let the CD keep running into the opening of nr. 9 to amuse your friends at music soirees. Or not. What a horrible way to desecrate great music!!


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## jurianbai (Nov 23, 2008)

some guy, thanks for the video. I am afraid just using bare ear will not possible to differentiated the two pieces in detail,at least for me. It is more about music theory and we will need a score as well. But the point is, yes this is the music I talking about.

After reviewing some other videos, I will also say, atonality perhaps an ACCENT in many composition, including the standard tonal piece. hence, we got another question , *it is atonality a music style or just a music technique* ?

and I think I also blur about something like expressionism,impresionism,minimalism etc. which is under a 20th century music umbrella.

*head_case*, I got about 20% of string quartets that lay down for years without second listening. I think I will put the thread to the string quartets talks to find out if you got any comments on it. wait, I need to find them first 

*Romantic geek*,in practise, I imagine how hard it is for a singer to sing a pitch where the other instrument play a contradict pitch due to atonality.


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## Head_case (Feb 5, 2010)

Wow..! 20% is way too much! 

One reason why I like digital availability of music, is, it offers a quick diagonal snapshot of a piece of music, before exploring further. 

For example - modern composers like Ligeti; Scelsi; a host of Viennese serialists all navel gazing up their duodecaphonic umblicals; as well as composers who are obscure, because they don't deserve to be any less obscure - all of these suddenly become available! That way there is no 'mystique' about their obscurity, and their music can either engage a mind, or be consigned to the academic dustbin. 

Well, as far as I can tell, atonality can be used as a technique, in the same way that harmonies can. Once it becomes a style, it's no different than a composer who relies on fugues to fudge his way towards the end of a composition.


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2010)

Head_case said:


> One reason why I like digital availability of music, is, it offers a quick diagonal snapshot of a piece of music, before exploring further.


The danger, of course, is that this could also make dismissive people feel even more justified for their dismissals. Not that dismissive people actually feel any NEED for justifying their dismissals! But I have heard people after a two or three minute Youtube clip talk as if their conclusions from that carried significant weight.

By the way, for Head_case, what is a "diagonal snapshot"? I couldn't make those words make any sense.

Otherwise, technique for me, too, sirs! Calling atonality a "style" is like calling tonality a "style." They're two (among many) ways of organizing material. If they become the material itself, then they turn into crutches. I'm sure we've seen many examples of both tonal and atonal composers gimping along....

(That's all, of course, to use that very questionable term as if it weren't questionable. I hate doing that, hence this paranthesis!)


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## Head_case (Feb 5, 2010)

I guess you're right....thinking about when I listen to 30 blip seconds of music adverts on Spotify or other electronic media, usually I can't wait for it to end, so that I can get on with enjoying my life. In fact, having a radio was positively disastrous for appreciating a whole genre of 'contemporary' pop music. It just convinced me it was shallow, trite, designed for consumption by 17 year olds.



> By the way, for Head_case, what is a "diagonal snapshot"? I couldn't make those words make any sense.


Lol - I guess it's not a term which will make sense to anyone unless they're used to reading 20th century books from Gallimard Editions (a French Publisher). When I studied in Paris, books were very expensive, and Gibert Jeune had a massive section. The pages of the Gallimard Editions were uncut at the upper/top margins and down the length of the page alternately. When you bought the book, you had to use a paper knife to slit the pages open to read it. So in the bookstore, you could only read the books 'diagonally' across the lines, or skip alternate pages. Or like looking at a photo - and skimming it across its diagonal - to get a gist of what it is


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2010)

Very cool, Head_case. Now I am going to use that expression, too. (Paris is such a cool town, too, isn't it? So touristy, but so easy to dodge the tourists. One or two blocks over in either direction from any tourist spot, and you're in a real French town that's really pretty cool.)


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## Head_case (Feb 5, 2010)

When I lived in Paris, that was a decade ago! It was beautiful in a kind of carefree Amants de Pont Neuf kinda way. Roll on 10 years, and there's street crime, violence, youth and ethnic tensions on the rise. It's miserable there in winter and during the many transport strikes that operate all year with trains, buses, ferries and planes! 

Despite that, it's a fabulous city. Easy to get away from tourists counts in my books as 'worth another visit'


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## jurianbai (Nov 23, 2008)

The only thing I associated with Paris or French is their wine, Bordeaux, Pomerol, Burgundy, St Emillon etc.

Now, this is going off topic already.


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2010)

Electroacoustic music started in France. France leads, still, in live electronic improv. Several of the top turntablists are from France. Paris is the home of GRM and the much later IRCAM and of CCMIX, as well. And Paris was long a center of serialist activity.

But that's as may be! What I really wanted to say to you, jurianbai, was that you might find Nancy Van de Vate's string quartet a nice transitional kind of thing for you. It's "atonal" but very very pretty in a "traditional" kind of way.

Not too easy to find any more, and I could find no clips online in a brief search, but I don't think the CD is too expensive. The one I have is on Vienna Modern Masters, VMM 2001.


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## Head_case (Feb 5, 2010)

Nice guy - just spare Jurianbai the torture and go head in deep and listen to Wolfgang Rihm! 










You can take diagonal snapshots from the link home address.

I'm struggling with Rihm. I'm not sure I can cut it past the 1970's comfortably....


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## jurianbai (Nov 23, 2008)

Thanks for those recomendations, as mentioned earlier, I still not keen to enter the 20th century music, especially the works with violin due to my explanation above. To concluded I think the works with piano, woodwind will easier for me to get into these musics. Just like the clarinet sound already done in a 'mystical' , 'flying', 'lydian' like scales, I'm not sure why most of clarinet solo will always has this passage. And I predict the harp composition for atonal or 20th century music will sound interesting ... haven't heard any of this yet.


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## Mr Chewie (Feb 22, 2010)

I know what you mean, jurianbai. If I'm not in the right mood, a dissonant violin part can just sound too shrill on the ears (I assume that's what you meant by "atonal"?).


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## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

Mr Chewie said:


> I know what you mean, jurianbai. If I'm not in the right mood, a dissonant violin part can just sound too shrill on the ears (I assume that's what you meant by "atonal"?).


*Before I start I'll just say I am not an expert on atonal music at all.*

The term atonal doesn't necessarily mean dissonant or harsh on the ears. The vast majority of tonal (i.e diatonic) music contains dissonances of varying degrees. Atonal music only contains dissonance when listening through ears accustomed to tonal music. If there is no key, no tonal centre, then no tone can be described as a dissonance according to tonal custom (i.e. a minor second, major seventh etc), as there is no reference point for them to be measured against. There are just different kinds of consonance. Unless one believes the overtone/tonal system to be scientifically 'pure', then there is nothing but tonal music. But surely science has no place in art.

Then there's the vagueness of the term 'atonal'. Many, including Schoenberg, prefer the term pan-tonal for some of the music, as how can any music be without tone, as the name implies.

In the end it all comes down to perspective and familiarity. One man's dissonace is another man's consonance.


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## Head_case (Feb 5, 2010)

jurianbai said:


> To conclude, I think the works with piano, woodwind will be easier for me to get into this kind of music. Just like the clarinet sound already done in a 'mystical' , 'flying', 'lydian' like scales, I'm not sure why most of clarinet solo will always has this passage. And I predict the harp composition for atonal or 20th century music will sound interesting ... haven't heard any of this yet.


And not to forget, the human voice.

Have you heard Gorecki's 3rd Symphony?

You might change your mind about atonal music then. Gorecki's 3rd, embodies la Mystique: the religious Mystique, and the cultural form derived from its eastern European legacy; this Mystique is not a property of the instrument, either as an imagination or a projection. Contemporary atonal music isn't always the culinary fricassée of notes and random pizzicati or glissandi, all fused together in an underwhelming non-melodic architecture. Enough about Elliott Carter then 

I'm starting to like flute sonatas for some reason. I'm thinking of Feld; Gubaidulina, Slowinski. I used to brush past those CDs and listen to them like wallpaper over the years. In the past year though, I've been excavating the nuances of La Mystique from these works - none of which are atonal, at least not in the way Gorecki's 3rd is. Well err... on reflection, I don't even care for the term 'atonal' music. If anything, it seems to put me off music, which I'm quite enjoying!


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I've been collecting some C20th concertos & other works, & inevitably one hears a fair amount of atonality in them. I agree that the term 'atonal' partially doesn't make sense - all music has tones, although in this type of music, there is no tonal centre. Anyway, I think this type of music takes a while to get used to & much patience (maybe 6 or so listens before you begin to understand it more).

Actually I really like the violin concertos of Berg, Leyendecker, Carter, Dutilleux. The Berg is definitely a serial composition, using those techniques, the rest have varying degrees of atonality (I don't know, maybe the Carter is serial as well?). In any case, it's one's perception of these works that matters, and I really like the unique colours and textures that these composers bring out of the violin. They are not flashy or virtuostic as earlier violin concertos (but not easy to play either). There's alot of depth here & different stories behind the works, eg. the Berg "In memory of an angel" is a kind of requiem for the dead daughter of a friend; the Dutilleux "Tree of dreams" was based on the writing of Marcel Proust. There's alot of variety within these works if you listen closely enough.

I find it harder to get into pieces were the tempo and sound seems to be very uniform and less varied, like the Schoenberg _Violin Concerto_, or Roslavet's _Violin Sonatas_. I still give them a listen occassionally, though.



jurianbai said:


> And I predict the harp composition for atonal or 20th century music will sound interesting ... haven't heard any of this yet.


Elliot Carter's _Mosaic_ for solo harp with chamber ensemble is the only piece I know (on Naxos). It was written as a reminisence of the composer's friendship with C20th harpist Carlos Salzedo.


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## Ut Pictura (Feb 21, 2010)

I highly recommend Gyorgy Kurtag's Kafka-Fragmente Op.24 - for violin and soprano. I have Juliane Banse and Andras Keller. Brilliant performance.
This is an expressive mostly atonal set of short sentences extracted from Kafka's writings. The violin part is dazzling.


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## jurianbai (Nov 23, 2008)

I going to use this thread for this video. I admire the composer of this work Sofia Gubaidulina who composed a great violin concerto and viola concerto (can find it at youtube). But her string quartet sample, is the best example of how I am missing out the idea of the composition. Term wise I am not sure is this 'atonal' or serrialism or avant-garde, nevermind, but this is what I've in mind when posting questions sometimes ago. Any comment for this :






'explaination' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gubaidulina#String_quartets


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

jurianbai said:


> Term wise I am not sure is this 'atonal' or serrialism or avant-garde, nevermind, but this is what I've in mind when posting questions sometimes ago. Any comment for this :
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lobotomy done to my ears. Crap.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Roslavets wrote chamber symphonies and trios that are atonal works with the violin.


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## SPR (Nov 12, 2008)

Head_case said:


> ....
> Their works add nothing substantial to the corpus of string quartet medium; neither French turn of the century innovation; nor Russian lyricism; no Polish mysticism; nor transcendental Hungarian folklore. Just German Panzer notes blasting out brittle shrapnel near vocalisations saying "Aren't I soooo impressive?!"
> 
> I'm not a fan of theory-worship in music, and although atonal music (Gorecki's 3 string quartets might come into this category for you) can be superlative and mind-blowing, too often, it risks becoming derivative, of the very theory it tries to espouse, and too over-intellectualised, to the point of being as emotionally nurturing as a desert storm with a hail of notes being fired across one's head.
> ...


*bravo* Brilliant.

I do have plenty to learn without a doubt about much of the 'newer' music - but this is exactly the way I felt after listening some of Bartoks quartets a few times.

(dont hate me. Its always nice to find commentary you can relate with..)

carry on....


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2010)

Bartok's last string quartet is over 70 years old.

His first is over 100 years old.

(I'm just wondering about SPR's use of the word "newer.")


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Did you consider Berg and Schönbeerg violin concertos?

They are caviar ! (I love caviar)


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## Sebastien Melmoth (Apr 14, 2010)

*Schönberg*'s *Violin Concerto* is the most poisonious honey of the 20th Century.

Check Hilary Hahn's recent reading for a masterful reading of this masterwork.

http://www.amazon.com/Schoenberg-Vi...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1290708437&sr=1-1

Btw: 'atonal' is an oxymoronic adjective; 'pantonal' is more accurately descriptive.

Schönberg's VC is 12-tonally organized pantonal.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*Atonal?*

You weren't speaking about atonal music...were you?

Alban Berg: violin concerto
Arnold Schönberg: violin concerto
Egon Wellesz: violin concerto

three great concertos!

I love them! Deeply.

Martin Pitchon, atonally yours.


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