# Composers reception - at home & abroad...



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I thought I'd make a thread on this. Its interesting how some composers where respected abroad but not so much at home. Then there is the situation of the reverse of that, where composers have many local admirers but their music doesn't travel well, so to speak.

Examples of the former situation are Berlioz and Bartok. Berlioz struggled against the musical establishment of France, but he had some big successes abroad. For example his _Damnation of Faust _was a huge success in Hungary on its premiere there. He got a Legion d'Honneur though, the highest civilian honour in France, but that was in his final years. As for Bartok, his music was considered too difficult in conservative Hungary but abroad his music was in some demand, by the time he left the country most of his commissions where coming from outside Hungary anyway. These two composers demonstrate the case that although places abroad where interested in & maybe ready for their music, their homelands took a while to catch up.

As for composers whose music did not, or does not, travel well, I think there is that thing how some British and maybe American composers music hasn't gotten much traction in non-English speaking countries. People can correct me on this. I know for one thing that although Australia is an English speaking country with British heritage, no classical music listeners I personally know here know the likes of Bax or Tippett (or if they know them, its more by name than actually having heard their music), but of course names like Vaughan Williams, Britten and Elgar are familiar to them.

Then there's the fact that with some composers, there is a language barrier, or political barriers. The former Iron Curtain countries of East Europe are a case in point. Not many people know opera composers like Moniuszko of Poland or Erkel of Hungary, or like the Serbian choral composer Mokranjac. In terms of Albanian and Bulgarian composers, I know none by name. In terms of Romania, I only know Enescu. As for other South-East European countries, of Turkey I only can think of Saygun and re Greece I do know Xenakis (actually born in Romania), Theodorakis and Skalkottas (all of whom spent significant period of time outside Greece). I'm sure there's many more great composers coming from these countries, but for various reasons - not only musical, eg. political - their music hasn't travelled well.

So just seeking a broad discussion about this. What do you guys think? Do these issues of regionalism versus internationalism seem interesting to you? Especially in terms of things going global with the internet, do you think that things may change with how today's composers and musicians can cross international boundaries? What about people who you know that are listeners of classical - do some names we talk about fairly often on this forum draw blanks with them?


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

As for drawing blanks, in my part of the world I can scarcely speak about Beethoven without drawing a blank. It's a bit lonely and why I pester you folks so much. 

It's hard for me to speculate on these ideas. I have always enjoyed music across national lines as long as it is more or less in the western tradition. For example I can enjoy Rimsky-Korsakov's orientalism but not gamelan music or Indian classical music in its purest non-westernized forms. Otherwise I love the music of all countries regardless of language or political leaning. 

Even before the days of the internet when I was a full time illustrator, I would work late into the night. There was a nationally syndicated classical radio show, perhaps there still is, called "Music Through the Night." Its overblown cultured sounding hosts would always champion little known composers trying to fill all the empty hours. It's where I first heard of obscure composers such as Tauno Pylkkänen, Zdeněk Fibich, and Douglas Lilburn. So I'm not sure the internet itself is entirely responsible for exposure for these isolated composers. It could be the ongoing melding of cultures that seems to have started around the time of Gorbachev for whatever reason.

One thing I do fear about the internet is its risk of creating homogenization. I do tend to think the greatest creativity comes about when cultures collide. (Straying a bit off topic, a good example of this is a song by Ian Anderson called "The Habanero Reel." In some parts of the world the hottest pepper known to man is called the Scotch bonnet, in other parts, the Habanero, and so to celebrate this deadly hot spice Anderson combines a Scottish reel with a decidedly Mexican musical flavor thrown in. It's an astonishing blend and I have no idea how he pulls it off.) But I would hate for the entire world to suddenly play all the same homogenized music, with little or no cultural distinctions.

However I shouldn't fear, because as I understand it, the Baroque era (the Age of Enlightenment) was a great explosion of multicultural diversity in Europe. They had their share of wars and strife, but musicians in particular seemed to share ideas freely. It could be the internet will provide a new Age of Enlightenment. One can hope.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Sibelius was a national hero in Finland from the moment his Kullervo premiered in 1892. His position as the (possibly) most important figure of all time in Finnish culture is well known. His music was also very well received in the other Nordic countries as well as in the US and, especially, Britain, where he received especial reverence. His music was not as well received, traditionally, in the rest of Europe; countries such as Germany, Austria and France were, for many years, not as willing to embrace his music as the other countries I just mentioned.

Akira Ifukube had a somewhat tricky start in his native Japan. The generations of composers before him sought, primarily, to copy the Austro-Germanic style of composition. Japanese music circles in the latter part of the 19th century and in the early part of the 20th felt that the Austro-German school represented the best tradition of all of Western music, and thus this model should be followed. Ifukube, who was born in 1914, was of a generation of composers, of whom he became the de facto leader, who sought to break from the rigid Austro-German school and establish a nationalistic Japanese school. Many in the Japanese music world thought it was undesirable to write "ethnic" music of this sort, and so, Ifukube was not readily embraced. After the Second World War, Japanese composers again wanted to emulate Europe, but not necessarily the Austro-German school but rather the avant-gardists. Takemitsu became the undisputed leader of this group. Again, since Ifukube stuck to a high folk-inflected style, he was seen as a reactionary, old-fashioned composer. It was not until about the 1970s, roughly 40 years after he began his career as a composer that the majority of the Japanese music world could take him seriously. He has since gone on to be one of the most famous Japanese composers and one of the most performed composers in his home country.

I could speak about a few other composers, but since Sibelius and Ifukube are the two I know most about, I will leave it at that.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

"In some parts of the world the hottest pepper known to man is called the Scotch bonnet, in other parts, the Habanero..."

Just in passing...per Guinness, the hottest pepper right now is the Trinidad Scorpion "Butch T" which was grown by The Chilli Factory (Australia) and rated at 1,463,700 Scoville Heat Units (SHU) according to tests conducted by EML Consulting Services in Morisset, New South Wales, Australia, on 1 March 2011. The pepper is of the Capsicum genus and a hybrid of the chinense and frutescens species.

The hottest habaneros and the Scotch Bonnet (a variant) are below 400,000 SHUs. I grow a variety of hot peppers, including the ghost pepper (bhut jolokia) which measures about 1,000,000 SHUs.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Good point. I should have researched it more but I was tired and rambling. "One of the hottest peppers" then. It's still a good song.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Pepperheads are very **** about such things... But on-topic, I'm curious how American composers who are popular at home (Copland, Adams, etc.) fare in the views of people overseas.

(I see that the post was censored. Substitute your own adjective.)


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

KenOC said:


> ... But on-topic, I'm curious how American composers who are popular at home (Copland, Adams, etc.) fare in the views of people overseas...


Gershwin is pretty big here thats for sure. I'd stress that in my opening post when reflecting on people's familiarity here of British composers, its based on the people I know who are into classical, and of course thats not a legion of people, its not the whole country! & of course I'm reflecting on some people who I've not seen for ages. But my point is that Tippett or Bax rarely if ever come up in concert programs here (and correspondingly on radio broadcasts of those very concerts). Delius did get some coverage here though with his 150th anniversary last year (I heard a work by him in concert, but again I don't think thats common otherwise).

So I suppose depends on what 'depth' of classical listener one is. But I know you got to be living under a rock here to not know Gershwin, even if you got only a slight interest in classical. Another one like that is Bernstein for his West Side Story at least.

Philip Glass is also known by name, at least for his movie scores and being referenced in pop culture (eg. South Park).

But I think the likes of Copland, Adams, maybe Ives as well have penetrated here, but not Sessions, Hovhaness, William Schuman, David Diamond, guys like that.

Another issue is composers who where first accepted abroad then became big at home. Elgar is one, he had a big success or two in Germany (I think with Gerontius and the Enigma Variations) before becoming big in his home country. Elgar also had a firm ally on the continent, Richard Strauss, which must have been important. Britten was also put on the map firmly at the Salzburg Festival in the 1930s with the premiere of his Variations on a Theme of Frank Bridge - its still a staple of string orchestras today. Bruckner's greatest success too was abroad, in Liepzig, where his Symphony #7 was premiered to great acclaim. But that was at the other end of his career, he was not as young as Elgar or Britten where with their initial 'foreign' successes.

The conclusion I draw from this is that to be taken seriously at home, you had to be accepted abroad. It was a thing to separate the men from the boys, so to speak. It certainly applies to Australia in some ways - to our actors or film directors. Once they have a success in Hollywood, or get an Oscar, everyone takes notice. Even if they had been working here an not as much known for decades (Geoffrey Rush is an example, he had been in the industry for ages when he had his big success with 'Shine' the biopic about pianist David Helfgott)...


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## Rapide (Oct 11, 2011)

Sid James said:


> I thought I'd make a thread on this. Its interesting how some composers where respected abroad but not so much at home. Then there is the situation of the reverse of that, where composers have many local admirers but their music doesn't travel well, so to speak.


Well, it's all a matter of history. All composers can be viewed as either respected abroad but not locally or vice-versa, or respected abroad and respected locally, or not respected abroad and not respected locally. What mattered more were their music and why the pieces were received they way it did at that point in time. Take Richard Wagner for example, not all his operas were that well received initially either in Germany and or abroad, but eventually it triumphed all over the world reaching true classical status.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Gustav Mahler was never received anything but poorly in Austria, especially by critics. A performance of the "Resurrection" symphony in France was a moderate success. The best receptions he got seemed to be in the Netherlands, where Mengelberg was a constant champion, even after the composer's unfortunate death.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Mozart left Salzburg with a kick in the hole from one of Archbishop Colloredo's lackeys. If that isn't a sign they don't like you, nothing is...


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Sid James said:


> ...
> 
> So I suppose depends on what 'depth' of classical listener one is. But I know you got to be living under a rock here to not know Gershwin, even if you got only a slight interest in classical. Another one like that is Bernstein for his West Side Story at least.
> 
> ...


Adding to what I said re American composers, I remembered that my own first exposure to some where in concerts here. Barber's violin concerto was the first work I heard from him (apart from the famous Adagio that's ubiquitous virtually everywhere, I'd say). Another one is more recent, 'flavour of the month' composer Eric Whitacre. Most likely if its done in concert here, it puts bums on seats (or has potential to), then people will know it. Its 'travelled well' to Australia. That's not putting down other composers, indeed I would love to hear some Hovhaness live here say, or Tippett, but I think its unlikely to happen.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Kieran said:


> Mozart left Salzburg with a kick in the hole from one of Archbishop Colloredo's lackeys. If that isn't a sign they don't like you, nothing is...


Well the feeling was mutual, wasn't it? Wolfie was happy to see the back of Salzburg. He thought it a backwater, couldn't wait to get out of the place.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Another issue is *exiled* composers.

*Wagner *is one, who was exiled and had a price on his head after supporting the republican cause in 1848. So he was exiled in Switzerland, which no doubt would have affected his career negatively. For one thing, he could not travel. I read that Liszt received him at Weimar, but Wagner was in disguise. So Liszt was harbouring a fugitive, breaking the law. But you do those things for family sometimes, don't you? In any case, in the 1860's, a relaxation of draconian measures occured, so Wagner was given amnesty as many others where and eventually was able to live and work in Germany (which was unified in 1871).

Another one is *Stravinsky,* who left Russia early on and once the Bolshevik coup/revolution of 1917 happened, he was cut off from his homeland. Lived in France and Switzerland but eventually wound up in USA. On his 80th birthday Igor went back to Russia and USSR leader Khrushchev gave him a warm welcome. The tables had turned, and Stravinsky conducted a number of his works there for the first time. But not doubt in the interim - esp. in the Stalin years - Igor must have been persona non grata in his own country.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Shostakovich, on Stravinsky's return to the USSR in 1962:

"Stravinsky hadn't forgotten anything -- that he had been called a lackey of American imperialism and a flunky of the Catholic Church -- and the very same people who had called him that were now greeting him with outspread arms. Stravinsky offered his walking stick instead of his hand to one of those hypocrites, who was forced to shake it, proving that he was the real lackey."


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

^^ I know there was talk (by Khrushchev possibly?) of allowing Igor back to live in USSR and giving him back his assets (eg. his house, which the Bolshies confiscated, which was a common thing). Would have been a good public relations hit for the newly more moderate post-Stalin regime. But if it was suggested Igor did not accept the invitation. BTW he also came to Australia to conduct his works around the same time, the early 1960's.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Sid James said:


> Well the feeling was mutual, wasn't it? Wolfie was happy to see the back of Salzburg. He thought it a backwater, couldn't wait to get out of the place.


Exactly! Though I think his frustration was more to do with the fact that they didn't have a theatre, and so he couldn't write operas. But yeah, even heavenly Salzburg wasn't enough for the metaphorically-divine Wolfgangerl....


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Sid James said:


> Another issue is *exiled* composers.


There were a fair number around the time of the second world war. Jewish composers like *Schoenberg* and *Korngold* come to mind, but also *Hindemith*, *Bartok*, and *Krenek*. They all ended up in America, eventually, and found more or less success there as composers (Bartok and Korngold) or as teachers (Schoenberg and Hindemith). Interestingly, this move tended to coincide with a stylistic shift in their music. Korngold turned to Hollywood film score, Bartok to a more accessible idiom integrating all of his influences, and Schoenberg to a less strict application of 12-tone method (producing his concertos and 4th quartet, among other things). Arguably, this move made the most impact on Schoenberg, who began to take a distinct interest in Zionism and his Jewish ethnicity in general.


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

Rapide said:


> Well, it's all a matter of history. All composers can be viewed as either respected abroad but not locally or vice-versa, or respected abroad and respected locally, or not respected abroad and not respected locally. What mattered more were their music and why the pieces were received they way it did at that point in time.


Yes, time fixes things in the end. As recently as the 1940s Neville Cardus could still write in a concert review that "Bruckner is for German-speaking folk"...
GG


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

GraemeG said:


> Yes, time fixes things in the end. As recently as the 1940s Neville Cardus could still write in a concert review that "Bruckner is for German-speaking folk"...
> GG


Interestingly, Bruckner seems to appeal very much to the Japanese, given by how often he appears on concert programs over there.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Re exiles I did a short lived thread on it a long time ago:
http://www.talkclassical.com/10176-expatriate-exiled-composers.html

I agree with what you say Mahlerian regarding the "stylistic shift," with Bartok and Schoenberg at least. The others I don't know nearly as well. There where exiles the other way too though. Conlon Nancarrow ended up shifting to Mexico, partly I think for political reasons (he was a Communist when that was not very popular in America, the McCarthy 'witchhunt' era). But I don't know how this affected the reception of his music in the USA compared to other places. Similar can be said of Hanns Eisler, deported during that time back to Germany for being avowedly Communist. Again, I don't know how if affected reception of his music in USA.

But getting back to the USA, because the history of classical music was short there, composers (& musicians) of many kinds where welcomed as teachers. Its similar in Australia, classical music really grew here after 1945, when musicians came from Europe. One was Austrian Jew Richard Goldner, who set up one of our finest quartets (still going) the Goldner String Quartet. He also founded Musica Viva's Australian branch. Such people here - and also people like Hindemith, Schoenberg, Milhaud, Dohnanyi to name a few who settled and taught in USA - really did enrich the cultural life of faraway lands. This is less to do with reception of their music - even though they where commissioned to write pieces for the burgeoning American market - but more to do with how they where accepted by their adopted country, their knowledge valued and passed on.


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## Rapide (Oct 11, 2011)

Sid James said:


> Another issue is *exiled* composers.
> 
> *Wagner *is one, who was exiled and had a price on his head after supporting the republican cause in 1848. So he was exiled in Switzerland, which no doubt would have affected his career negatively. For one thing, he could not travel. I read that Liszt received him at Weimar, but Wagner was in disguise. So Liszt was harbouring a fugitive, breaking the law. But you do those things for family sometimes, don't you? In any case, in the 1860's, a relaxation of draconian measures occured, so Wagner was given amnesty as many others where and eventually was able to live and work in Germany (which was unified in 1871).


Thank goodness Liszt did what he did to help out Wagner!


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

Hard to make generalizations, but some music just doesn't seem to "travel" well to some places. The U.S. has an antipathy to Elgar symphonies, despite the advocacy of some otherwise popular interpreters (like Solti). The Met doesn't schedeule "Pelleas et Melisande." "Palestrina" doesn't play outside of Germany. In my lifetime there were three separate rediscoveries of Janacek before he made the standard repertoire (and he "made it" in Czechoslovakia long before anywhere else). The antipathy of Vienna to non-German/Austrian musiic is legendary. Sometimes it's political: after Prokofiev repatriated to the USSR, everything he wrote in the West was considered "formalist," decadent, and unlistenable. Would _you _ pay money to listen to Bax or Delius?


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

GGluek said:


> Would _you _ pay money to listen to Bax or Delius?


YES! A Concert Organization which has the boldness to program exiting stuff like Bax and Delius will get my money every time!

/ptr


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

GGluek said:


> Hard to make generalizations, but some music just doesn't seem to "travel" well to some places. The U.S. has an antipathy to Elgar symphonies, despite the advocacy of some otherwise popular interpreters (like Solti).


Just a note that Elgar's 1st Symphony was used quite effectively in the Warner Bros. 1984 film, "Greystoke." Right at the opening, as the camera roams the great estate in England. Spot on!


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

ptr said:


> YES! A Concert Organization which has the boldness to program exiting stuff like Bax and Delius will get my money every time!
> 
> /ptr


Obviously, I was being snarky. But I like your enthusiasm!

cheers --
george


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

GGluek said:


> Obviously, I was being snarky. But I like your enthusiasm!


You know, snark just like irony translates poorly on the internet (written text), especially for the bunch of us who read English as a second or third language like myself.
But please keep on going, I see all communication as a learning process, actually life is a learning process... 

/ptr


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

ptr said:


> You know, snark just like irony translates poorly on the internet (written text), especially for the bunch of us who read English as a second or third language like myself.
> But please keep on going, I see all communication as a learning process, actually life is a learning process...
> 
> /ptr


You're right. Although my comments often reflect real personal preferences, the smiley face means that they should not be taken to denigrate anyone else's preferences or opinions.

(Personally, I tend to place most Delius in a "pretty, but uninteresting" category. That is, one listening does no harm, but subsequent hearings are best performed while one is asleep.  )

cheers


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

GGluek said:


> You're right. Although my comments often reflect real personal preferences, the smiley face means that they should not be taken to denigrate anyone else's preferences or opinions.


I think we're about the same foot there! I take everything I reed here as personal opinions until otherwise has been established, so I don't mind strong opinions just as long as all understand that that is "merely" what they are!



> (Personally, I tend to place most Delius in a "pretty, but uninteresting" category. That is, one listening does no harm, but subsequent hearings are best performed while one is asleep.  )


Then You might not have given Delius a close enough check then! He is the Debussy of British Composers (despite his German ancestry), unfortunately it is just his "lighter" works that gets promoted, *the Songs of Farewell, Songs of Sunset and A Song of Summer* are all substantial works as are the the *Violin *and *Piano *Concertos!
I understand that Debussy is not for all, but if You like the "loose" tonality he introduced, the I'm sure that Delius appeal!

/ptr


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

Well, my problem with monikers is that just calling someone the "British Debussy" doesn't make him as good as Debussy (Just for a laugh, can you imagine what someone called the "German Debussy" might sound like? ). The Delius I've heard (Brigg Fair, Appalachia, Walk to the Paradise Garden, Song of Summer, and yes, the piano concerto) just never held my interest after two hearings -- and even today, when I hear a Delius work on Public radio, I place the composer instantly, and whether I want to or not, just mentally tune out. But that's just personal taste -- and as they say in Americsn basketball slang, "no harm, no foul."

cheers --


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

Sid James said:


> Then there's the fact that with some composers, there is a language barrier, or political barriers. The former Iron Curtain countries of East Europe are a case in point. Not many people know opera composers like Moniuszko of Poland or Erkel of Hungary, or like the Serbian choral composer Mokranjac. In terms of Albanian and Bulgarian composers, I know none by name. In terms of Romania, I only know Enescu. As for other South-East European countries, of Turkey I only can think of Saygun and re Greece I do know Xenakis (actually born in Romania), Theodorakis and Skalkottas (all of whom spent significant period of time outside Greece). I'm sure there's many more great composers coming from these countries, but for various reasons - not only musical, eg. political - their music hasn't travelled well.
> 
> So just seeking a broad discussion about this. What do you guys think? Do these issues of regionalism versus internationalism seem interesting to you?


Yes, I think it's interesting. These situations are not simple and there's not really a single explanation to cover all the "why"s.
However, for broad discussion purposes, I think there's 2 main topics: 1) sophistication in the international arts expects a high(er) level of education, typically involving relocation to a higher profile metropolitan city (such as a Mikis Theodorakis or a Marius Constant going to Paris) & 2) at the risk of sounding unflattering, some ethnicities are rather insular regarding culture (think of parents in Greece who want their son to marry _only_ a Greek woman, for instance).

I'm no expert in these areas; however, thanks to Qualiton Imports who distributed many fine CD albums of classical music to brick-n-mortar retail music stores here in Philadelphia during the 1990s and early 2000s, I've accumulated via blind buys a few discs from several countries in, and bordering around, Eastern Europe:










In following posts, I'll deposit some composer names and/or album images - maybe even a YouTube clip or two...


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

*Yasu!*

Starting with Greece, I'll work my way up north to other countries.

I would think that Manos Hadjidakis should possess as high a recognition factor as Mikis Theodorakis - both wrote music for films (pre-STAR WARS, pre-Spielberg films, that is  ) especially during the 1960s. Both have written "ethnic" music, as well.

Nikos Skalkottas has had a relatively recent revival of interest in his music thanks to the label BIS. Iannis Xenakis, though, has had a high profile - for decades - in academia.

Here's some more composers from Greece:

Manolis Kalomiris
Dimitri Terzakis
Georges Aperghis










http://www.aperghis.com/discographie/disco.html

Here's an engaging Naxos CD on lighterweight concertante works by Greeks for Saxophone & orchestra:










http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Naxos/8557992


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Sibelius is still highly respected in Finland, he hasn't lost anything of his iconic status. But what he has lost, I think, is an audience that knows his music. Not many people here know anything about his music beyond _Finlandia_. Which is sort of strange, given how respected he still is.


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

*Gimmie a high five!*

The Turkish Five were the initial composers responsible for the Westernization of classical music in the Republic of Turkey (though I think they were all educated in Paris).


*Ahmed Adnan Saygun* has enjoyed the largest dissemination of his music from that of the Turkish Five, especially on the CPO label, but the Hungaroton label was also significant in bringing the music by the others onto disc.










*Cemal Reşit Rey*










*Ulvi Cemal Erkin*

*Hasan Ferit Alnar*

*Necil Kazım Akses*


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

As with Sid James, I'm not aware of any composers from Albania.
However, east of Turkey is Armenia, from which there's Ashot Zograbian (b. 1945) and Georges Garvarentz (1932-1993).










Again, there is this French connection. 

Zograbian's music is on a French music label, and basically the whole career of Georges Garvarentz was based in France, wherein he wrote songs for _chanteuse_ since the 1950s & wrote film music for mostly French-language productions since the 1960s & is most of all associated with providing music for performer Charles Aznavour.


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

I expect that Andre Boucourechliev may be the most respected composer to hail from Bulgaria ...



















... but there's at least one more Bulgarian whom I'm aware of - Emil Tabakov.










The above is on the Balkanton label (which I presume issued more than one album)


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

Croatian composers have eluded me - except for Ivo Malec (yet another Eastern European with a career in France).










Malec's music is gradually receiving commercial recordings - thanks Timpani (one of my favorite labels)!


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

*Last stop - Romania*

While I love George Enescu's 3rd symphony, his opera _Oedipe_, _Vox Maris_ & some of his chamber works, I daresay Enescu is not necessarily the Romanian whose music I'm drawn to the most; this distinction belongs to Marius Constant.

Whether on Erato LPs from the 1960s ...










... or CDs from the early 1990s, such as by Cybelia or Salabert, - Constant is one of my favorite modernists.



















Another Romanian whose music I follow with regularity is Horatiu Radulescu. So far, _Byzantine Prayer_ is the Radulescu work which has impressed me the most.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Prodromides said:


> Yes, I think it's interesting. These situations are not simple and there's not really a single explanation to cover all the "why"s.
> However, for broad discussion purposes, I think there's 2 main topics: 1) sophistication in the international arts expects a high(er) level of education, typically involving relocation to a higher profile metropolitan city (such as a Mikis Theodorakis or a Marius Constant going to Paris) & 2) at the risk of sounding unflattering, some ethnicities are rather insular regarding culture (think of parents in Greece who want their son to marry _only_ a Greek woman, for instance).
> ...


Well I would add that going way back with Greece (pre-19th century) & also Bulgaria and other parts of the Balkans you had the Ottoman Turkish occupation of those lands. They where in Greece for like 500 years, in Bulgaria for like 300 and Hungary for 150 years. I think this was an element of Western things - one of them being classical music - penetrating there much later than other places.

The other thing is that places further north, like Hungary, Czech and Poland have basically been kind of 'Western Europe wannabes,' so they where the first to set up conservatoriums of music in the region in the 19th century. Further south you go, that happened later (eg. Saygun who you mention was the first, I believe, to set up a music school in Turkey, and he enlisted the help of Hindemith to do this, this was about the 1920's or '30's).

& I think that these countries have a rich folk music culture which, due to slower economic development compared to Western Europe, it kind of hung on longer than more advanced countries. Early in the 20th century, things like operetta was the pop music of its time. Even in larger towns, people would know tunes from that, and that kind of spread of things from the cities, added to increased urbanisation, wiped out folk culture in these places. But I believe that in places like Bulgaria, Turkey and Greece it has survived until today, but I'm not sure of this exactly. Certainly in the remote areas and smaller towns its survived? I've heard that tourism has helped preserve singing of folk music and performance of folk dancing etc too.

But I digress. Re the composers you mentioned, I have come across a cd of the first Bulgarian one (but didn't get it). I got a few Qualiton and Hungarotons myself, but they are hard to get here, as they don't distribute here anymore which is a shame. The other thing is that since the fall of the Iron Curtain, governments there have reduced funding to culture, so that would have its effects on recording of folk or new music of each country. They've ditched Communism for capitalism which means tighter arts budgets.

Re the earlier discussions of Delius he's a good example for this thread. He didn't like the UK, he couldn't wait to get out of there. Had long stints in USA and Germany and lived his last few decades in France. But Delius said "thank God for Beecham" as it was that conductor that put him on the map in the UK. Of course he was of German parentage, I guess he saw himself as continental European not British. But he's seen as a Brit through and through now. He's not played here much to my knowledge, but as I said in his anniversary year some of his things where played live. I think listeners would know him, but to what extent that may well vary. I myself only 'discovered' him in recent years, but thats the case with many 'lesser travelled' composers. His cello concerto is a gem, much admired by Elgar, but very different to his which was composed around the same time.


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

*bump*

... so that other TC members such as BPS can take a plunge into a Turkish bath.


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2013)

Hey Prodromides! You led this horse to the water, now let's see what happens!

I can add a wee bit to the discussion about Bulgaria: Pancho Vladigerov, arguably the most influential Bulgarian composer according to his Wikipedia article. I have a couple of his pieces on this album:










Also I should add that Bulgaria is a very divided country culturally. In some ways it follows western European norms, but also there is a strong faction of Gypsy and Turkish culture. A case in point is "chalga" music (look it up on YouTube - you won't be disappointed). I think the majority of college kids hate chalga, but the majority of taxi drivers (etc) love it. I suppose there is some fusion of these different musical traditions going on as well.

Oh heck - here's one link. A lot of the videos are racy, but there is some serious chalga out there as well. Similar music can be found in Romania, former Yugoslavia, and Greece as well.






I'll have to pick up the Saygun Piano Concertos at some point!


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

*thoughts on Sofia*

Thanks, BPS.

Nice to hear from somebody who lived there for a while. Perhaps you can contribute more than a "wee" bit?
I'm curious about how Bulgarians regard classical music.

When you were there, were you able to observe any significant differences between high culture and pop culture?

I was unaware of _chalga_ music, but these YouTube videos seem almost American in terms of rapid editing, female super-model type pulchritude, the overall song format, etc.
The difference rests in the "ethnic" aspects of the music. Sounds as if gypsy music scales/intervals as well as some local percussion have been "rebooted" for the 21st century.

Hardly have anything in the World Music category myself, but one of the soundtracks I own came to mind:

THE KITE RUNNER by Alberto Iglesias










There also appears to be considerable Hispanic lineage: I cited a Turkish composer whose surname is Rey, and you mention Bulgarian Pancho Vladigerov.

I, too, have a Gega CD or 2.

Did you happen to come across any Balkanton CDs when you were there?

_Ciao_


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## Guest (Apr 25, 2013)

I bumped into this album buried in the recesses of my collection recently - it's a very nice collection of compositions for guitar and flute based on Balkan (primarily Yugoslavian) tunes. At times you can here a very strong middle eastern influence.

The Cavatina Duo - A Balkan Project








A lovely collection. I have this album on repeat at the moment.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Local audiences often see music as representing a local political cutural angle, yet most artists certainly see art as being international and they will take influences from wherever they can. And classical music is an obvious example of internationalism.


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## Guest (Jun 2, 2013)

Finally picked up the Saygun piano concertos. I'm listening to the first one now and it's terrific. Who said classical music has to be boring?

If you're looking for a Croatian composer, Dora Pejacevic is getting treated well on CPO recently. I have and very much like this one:


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## Marisol (May 25, 2013)

Sid James said:


> Well the feeling was mutual, wasn't it? Wolfie was happy to see the back of Salzburg. He thought it a backwater, couldn't wait to get out of the place.


I probably should not bother, because to some everything that Mozart touches or writes must automatically be gold, but a more balanced view on the matter can be found here;

In short:
Dad sends a message his son deserves more recognition or else. Then the answer is a shock, "OK, you have permission to leave". Oh boy, now what? No problem the "greatest genius that ever lived" should be able to get a job somewhere in Europe right? Nope, after a while he returned to Salzburg and no job! Then he takes a job and performs not satisfactory at all. It goes on and on, the story of an irresponsible person and a hardworking father trying to make the best of it.

http://www.earlymusicworld.com/id27.html


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Marisol said:


> I probably should not bother, because to some everything that Mozart touches or writes must automatically be gold, but a more balanced view on the matter can be found here;
> 
> In short:
> Dad sends a message his son deserves more recognition or else. Then the answer is a shock, "OK, you have permission to leave". Oh boy, now what? No problem the "greatest genius that ever lived" should be able to get a job somewhere in Europe right? Nope, after a while he returned to Salzburg and no job! Then he takes a job and performs not satisfactory at all. It goes on and on, the story of an irresponsible person and a hardworking father trying to make the best of it.
> ...


I hate to keep correcting you, but that's not even what the article says, let alone being close to the truth. Mozart left Salzburg with the Archbishops permission to take leave and went to Munich where he composed Idomeneo (Salzburg not having its own opera) and _Idomeneo was a huge success_. As the article says, "Immediately following the success of his Idomeneo in Munich, Mozart was summoned to join [Archbishop] Colloredo's retinue in Vienna."

He reluctantly left success behind - the Munich orchestra was the old fabled Mannheim orchestra and perfectly suited to his talents - and headed back to provincial Salzburg. Things came to a head and Wolfie knew he would be successful elsewhere. Famously, he was fired with a kick a in the hole and he headed back to Vienna, to find work as an independent. And guess what? Just like the last time he left, he was successful.

His problem in Salzburg was the lack of a theatre - he mostly wanted to compose operas - and the fact that he didn't want to be controlled by the Archbishop. He wanted to be in Vienna, "the land of the clavier," as he put it in a letter to his father. Vienna was the centre of the musical world back then and a talent such as Wolfie's knew it could only find fulfillment there.

So he went...


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## Marisol (May 25, 2013)

Kieran said:


> I hate to keep correcting you, but that's not even what the article says, let alone being close to the truth.


_"...a petition by Leopold to the archbishop for promotion either for himself, his son, or both. The negative response was exacerbated by the archbishop's refusal to allow both Mozarts to undertake another lengthy journey, this time to Paris. In response Wolfgang had written to the archbishop in a manner that the prelate might with some justification have considered impertinent. The result was an ironically ambiguous response, agreeing that both father and son "have permission to seek their fortune elsewhere". Leopold, terrified that this meant dismissal for both of them, decided to stay at home, instead sending his wife Maria Anna to accompany Wolfgang on a journey from which she would not return."
_

_Although he had failed to find the much sought-after position away from Salzburg, Mozart did not return to his native city in the middle of January 1779 to find himself unemployed. _

Then back in Salzburg he got a job:

_Mozart's failure to provide much in the way of new music for the cathedral - only two Masses, K317 and K337, date from the period of his tenure - doubtless did not escape the attention of the archbishop, who in turn annoyed Mozart in June 1780 by issuing an archiepiscopal letter demanding less elaborate church music and the introduction of German hymns, a number of which were indeed later composed by Michael Haydn._


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Marisol said:


> _"...a petition by Leopold to the archbishop for promotion either for himself, his son, or both. The negative response was exacerbated by the archbishop's refusal to allow both Mozarts to undertake another lengthy journey, this time to Paris. In response Wolfgang had written to the archbishop in a manner that the prelate might with some justification have considered impertinent. The result was an ironically ambiguous response, agreeing that both father and son "have permission to seek their fortune elsewhere". Leopold, terrified that this meant dismissal for both of them, decided to stay at home, instead sending his wife Maria Anna to accompany Wolfgang on a journey from which she would not return."
> _
> 
> _Although he had failed to find the much sought-after position away from Salzburg, Mozart did not return to his native city in the middle of January 1779 to find himself unemployed. _
> ...


Look at your previous post:



> Originally Posted by *Marisol *
> 
> _
> I probably should not bother, because to some everything that Mozart touches or writes must automatically be gold, but a more balanced view on the matter can be found here;
> ...


Nothing in the article portrays Mozart as "irresponsible." Where do you get that from? Because the greatest musical genius wnated to - gasp! - live elsewhere to fulfil his great talent, he's suddenly "irresponsible."

"Irresponsible" how? Or to who? He was responsible to his great gift, which he knew was being underused and neglected in Salzburg. I think he showed propriety and sense in wanting to go to Vienna - and it was irresponsible of others to try stop him, however well-meaning his "hardworking father" was (the same father you previously accused of forcing him to compose music)...


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## Marisol (May 25, 2013)

Kieran said:


> the same father you previously accused of forcing him to compose music...


Well, I actually think that was a good thing!

If he wouldn't have Mozarts life may have been predominantly taken place in the gambling houses and brothels.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Marisol said:


> Well, I actually think that was a good thing!
> 
> If he wouldn't have Mozarts life may have been predominantly taken place in the gambling houses and brothels.


Of course it would. After all, there's a first time for everything...


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## Rapide (Oct 11, 2011)

Monsieur Pierre Boulez, well received in the world of serialism and by and large, the art of conducting too.


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

Does Rapide have no love for Marius Constant's music?


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