# BPO Bruckner 1-9



## sbmonty (Jan 11, 2014)

I'd appreciate your thoughts on the performances in this collection. Beautifully presented. What do you think about the recordings?


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

They are all good, solid performances - what would anyone expect? The sound is excellent. The presentation annoying - how do you store something like this? I have the BPO with Karajan and that's enough; in fact, it's great! The same cannot be said of this Frankenbruckner set. And jeez is it overpriced! More of a souvenir for BPO fans, I think.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

I bought this set because *7 Digital *are selling it for £9.49 as a 16 bit CD quality download (I paid slightly more for a 96/48 Hi-Res download). No lavish packaging and no booklet (info widely available online). I bought it in 2019 I think, but it hasn't gone up in price. I haven't listened to a note of it!!!

The only justification for my post is to point out that if you're ok with a Hi-Res download, it's available very cheaply!

Fill yer boots here!

People from Scotland and Yorkshire, take note.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

HenryPenfold said:


> I bought this set because *7 Digital *are selling it for £9.49 as a 16 bit CD quality download (I paid slightly more for a 96/48 Hi-Res download). No lavish packaging and no booklet (info widely available online). I bought it in 2019 I think, but it hasn't gone up in price. I haven't listened to a note of it!!!


Wow! The download is $9 in the US. I think that qualifies as a ridiculous bargain.


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

HenryPenfold said:


> I bought this set because *7 Digital *are selling it for £9.49 as a 16 bit CD quality download (I paid slightly more for a 96/48 Hi-Res download). No lavish packaging and no booklet (info widely available online). I bought it in 2019 I think, but it hasn't gone up in price. I haven't listened to a note of it!!!
> 
> The only justification for my post is to point out that if you're ok with a Hi-Res download, it's available very cheaply!
> 
> ...


Given the quality of the heads up I'll ignore the slur on the good people of Scotland and Yorkshire in your last sentence.

But jings min thons a stotting guid price


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Malx said:


> But jings min thons a stotting guid price


:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Manxfeeder said:


> Wow! The download is $9 in the US. I think that qualifies as a ridiculous bargain.


For the 16 bit or the mp3?


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

HenryPenfold said:


> For the 16 bit or the mp3?


Mp3. My cheapo stereo system doesn't justify the upgraded files.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Manxfeeder said:


> Mp3. My cheapo stereo system doesn't justify the upgraded files.


Makes sense 
(I don't want to start world war three, but there's not much difference between any of the formats)


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## Marc (Jun 15, 2007)

Paid 11 euro in the Netherlands (16 bit quality), also at 7digital.

Have been listening this evening to Ozawa in no. 1... well, afaik Ozawa is not known as a solid or famous Brucknerian, but man, imho he nails this piece perfectly. And the sound quality of the FLAC-files is great.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Marc said:


> Paid 11 euro in the Netherlands (16 bit quality), also at 7digital.
> 
> Have been listening this evening to Ozawa in no. 1... well, afaik Ozawa is not known as a solid or famous Brucknerian, but man, imho he nails this piece perfectly. And the sound quality of the FLAC-files is great.


I've been giving the first symphony some air time of late because I've neglected it in recent years, so you've whetted my appetite. I'll give this a spin tomorrow.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

This is, a damn fine set. Some people might have already heard Rattle's completed 9th, a recording I think is very, very good, but the two Haitink performances and Mehta's 8th are equally top class. Tbh there's not a bad one in this set and the recordings are really impressive.


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## thejewk (Sep 13, 2020)

Oh thanks for the heads up about the set on 7digital. Been looking for an introductory set, and this will fit the bill nicely.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Merl said:


> This is, a damn fine set. Some people might have already heard Rattle's completed 9th, a recording I think is very, very good, but the two Haitink performances and Mehta's 8th are equally top class. Tbh there's not a bad one in this set and the recordings are really impressive.


Is it the same Rattle B9?


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

HenryPenfold said:


> Is it the same Rattle B9?


I think so. I'll check.

Edit: Apologies, it seems the Rattle is a different recording (but still includes the 4th movement completion). The one here is a 2018 recording of the 9th, not the same as his previous 2012 recording. Timings are different and, listening to both briefly side by side, I prefer the 2012 recording slightly but this is still a very good one. You need to check out that Haitink 5th though. It's really impressive.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Merl said:


> I think so. I'll check.
> 
> Edit: Apologies, it seems the Rattle is a different recording (but still includes the 4th movement completion). The one here is a 2018 recording of the 9th, not the same as his previous 2012 recording. Timings are different and, listening to both briefly side by side, I prefer the 2012 recording slightly but this is still a very good one. You need to check out that Haitink 5th though. It's really impressive.


Thanks for checking Merl.

It wasn't a trick question, by the way. I just had a vague memory of a conversation a couple of years ago about it, and I couldn't remember. I still have not listened to any of it yet! I grabbed it coz it was a bargain and figured I'd listen to it in due course.

I shalll check out the Haitink 5, but today it's been Celibidache MPO B6 and Sinopoli BPO B3, so I don't think I have the stamina tonight!!!


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Yeah, great price. I might just go for it.

I DO already have the #8 and #5 conducted by Sergiu Celibidache: SWR Symphony Orchestra Stuttgart (that's the LATER recording), and

#4, and #5; Günter Wand: Cologne Radio Symphony Orchestra

So I've already got #5 twice, and #4 and #8. 

Hmm. Nine bucks is affordable . . . . .


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

OK, I thought, well, let me check it out . . . and out of habit went straight to Amazon.









Yikes! $85.41

The CD set is on sale Reg $123.99; now $100.65

Vinyl availble for $395.94


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

pianozach said:


> Yeah, great price. I might just go for it.
> 
> I DO already have the #8 and #5 conducted by Sergiu Celibidache: SWR Symphony Orchestra Stuttgart (that's the LATER recording), and
> 
> ...


One of the unparalleled joys of CM is the comparing of performances of works by different orchestras, different conductors and different times. This one's the price of two coffees and a beer?


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Took the plunge. Downloads complete. No problems at all. Had to create an account, wouldn't take a Debit Gift Card, but worked just fine with a CC.

Hefty sized files, even being mp3s. Symphony No. 7 alone is 130MB. These are really storage hogs.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

I bought the download of this album that HenryPenfold linked. I prefer physical media, but at that price and without the annoying packaging size, how could I resist? I sprung for the 24-but high res files as well. A report will be forthcoming, and we'll see whether Merl's recommendation carries water.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

HenryPenfold said:


> One of the unparalleled joys of CM is the comparing of performances of works by different orchestras, different conductors and different times. This one's the price of two coffees and a beer?


Oh, yes. A dollar per symphony? 25¢ per movement. Can't beat _THAT_.

Just unhappy about the size of the files. The whole shebang uses 1.34GB.

I've got 15 digital Haydn symphonies that only take up 368MB. Of course, I could get all 15 to fit on only 5 CDs, so maybe I'm overreacting.

Almost done listening to 1:I. *Really nice sound. Full, lush, sweet. Very chocolate. Very lavender-orange-burgundy.*


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

pianozach said:


> Oh, yes. A dollar per symphony? 25¢ per movement. Can't beat _THAT_.
> 
> Just unhappy about the size of the files. The whole shebang uses 1.34GB.
> 
> ...


I've got quite a large Hard Drive as well as 4 TB portable drive that I use, so I tend not to get capacity issues.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Checking out the rest of the 7digital site . . . not particularly easy to navigate.

Found a 12-CD Classical Romantic sampler for $6.99 from K-Tel (2007). 12 hours of music:

*A Calendar Of Classics - A 12 CD Set Of Romantic Classics For Every Month Of The Year
Various Artists*

It's likely I already have most of the selections.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

There are many bargains on the 7 Digital site. Borodin complete *DSCH* string quartets, *Gergiev*'s LSO Mahler cycle, Colin Davis' complete *Berlioz recordings*, his complete Sibelius & Nielsen, Rattle's *Sibelius* BPO cycle, The J*ohn Adams *Edition, Jeroen Van Veen's complete *Satie* collection - just a few off the top of my head (I bought them all). Best of the lot for me was *Jap Van Zweden*'s Bruckner cycle - all very cheap.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

I regret this purchase. Not because the performances aren't good, because who forking knows...

The download took ages (even though I can stream Netflix in HD), and much worse than that, the forking metadata is totally FUBAR. I HATE THAT. Now I'm spending time editing forking metadata that I'd rather be spending doing something more fun, like stabbing toothpicks into my eye.



Forking metadata. Why can't people just get this right? *&@*>%!&^&%!!


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

^

Metadata... that sounds like a Berliner Philharmoniker Recordings kind of thing.

I've bought one recording from them directly that has got wrong file/directory names. Another recording's physical booklet states no recording date but fortunately the pdf booklet does. (Being a recording date freak I panicked for a sec there :lol


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Sorted the metadata. Now enjoying a remarkably decent Thielemann Bruckner 7.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

HenryPenfold said:


> I bought this set because *7 Digital *are selling it for £9.49 as a 16 bit CD quality download (I paid slightly more for a 96/48 Hi-Res download). No lavish packaging and no booklet (info widely available online). I bought it in 2019 I think, but it hasn't gone up in price. I haven't listened to a note of it!!!
> 
> The only justification for my post is to point out that if you're ok with a Hi-Res download, it's available very cheaply!
> 
> ...


This person from Scotland took note. Thanks for the heads up. I downloaded the MP3 version and had no metadata problem.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Barbebleu said:


> This person from Scotland took note. Thanks for the heads up. I downloaded the MP3 version and had no metadata problem.


That's good to know. After my experience with Supraphon's metadata mess, I was getting chary.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

I downloaded that 24-bit FLAC, and it's worth it for the forking great sound quality, but the metadata did in fact have problems. YMMV as to what constitutes a problem. For me, stuff like the 1st movement of the First being detached in the file name system is a problem, not to mention posting every conductor (all 8) for the metadata on every symphony. For sure it's not as bad or far gone as the Supraphon downloads, but in the end it's about the same amount of work to make sure it's right.

I'm on to the Fifth now, Haitink. It's really terrific, immediately I'm hugely impressed. I'll be revisiting this one often, at least.

ETA: earlier, I enjoyed the Seventh with Thielemann, whom I normally don't care for. I'm not sure it'll be on my short list of great Sevenths, but it was very good and highly enjoyable.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Knorf said:


> I downloaded that 24-bit FLAC, and it's worth it for the forking great sound quality, but the metadata did in fact have problems. YMMV as to what constitutes a problem. For me, stuff like the 1st movement of the First being detached in the file name system is a problem, not to mention posting every conductor (all 8) for the metadata on every symphony. For sure it's not as bad or far gone as the Supraphon downloads, but in the end it's about the same amount of work to make sure it's right.
> 
> I'm on to the Fifth now, Haitink. It's really terrific, immediately I'm hugely impressed. I'll be revisiting this one often, at least.
> 
> ETA: earlier, I enjoyed the Seventh with Thielemann, whom I normally don't care for. I'm not sure it'll be on my short list of great Sevenths, but it was very good and highly enjoyable.


You're right. There were a few details like the ones you mentioned but I've got nothing but time on my hands and I upload to my iTunes library and let it do the sorting. I did have to edit the conductors names but hey ho, it's a small price to pay for such a bargain.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

I'm now on the Mehta Eighth, and it's very good. I think I've sampled enough to be able to say this is definitely a worthy set for your average Brucknerian. However, get the cheap download (I recommend getting the 24 bit FLAC even if you think your system isn't great), and don't pay the high premium for the extravagant "collectors edition" packaging for the physical discs, unless you just gotta.

Also, it seems the detailed versions of each symphony aren't conveniently listed, so I tracked that information down, to the best of my knowledge, to post here. It wasn't easy, let me tell you.

*Berliner Philharmoniker
Anton Bruckner Symphonies 1-9*

Seiji Ozawa
Symphony No. 1
Original "Linz" version with revisions, 1877 (elsewhere listed erroneously as 1865/66), ed. Nowak.

Paavo Järvi
Symphony No. 2
Second version, 1877, ed. Carragan.

Herbert Blomstedt
Symphony No. 3
Original version, 1873, ed. Nowak.

Bernard Haitink
Symphony No. 4
2nd version, 1881 (elsewhere listed erroneously as 1878/1880) ed. Haas.

Bernard Haitink
Symphony No. 5
1st version, 1878, ed. Haas.

Mariss Jansons
Symphony No. 6
Version 1881 (only one), ed. Nowak.

Christian Thielemann
Symphony No. 7
Version 1885 (only one), ed. Nowak.

Zubin Mehta
Symphony No. 8
2nd version, 1890, ed. Nowak.

Simon Rattle
Symphony No. 9
Version 1894 (only one), ed. Benjamin-Gunnar Cohrs.
Fourth movement completion, ed. Samale/Philips/Cohrs/Mazzuca.


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## thejewk (Sep 13, 2020)

Thanks for that Knorf, I've just purchased it now and wasn't looking forward to the headache of figuring out which versions they were.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Knorf said:


> Sorted the metadata. Now enjoying a r*emarkably decent* Thielemann Bruckner 7.


:lol::lol::lol: ............


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

I've listened through a couple more of this set today. Let's be straight about one thing: the hero of this cycle are the players of the Berliner Philharmoniker themselves. Their commitment to a true Bruckner _Klang_, playing every single semiquaver with belief and love, is really what this cycle reveals, no matter who is at the helm. I've yet to hear anything less than really good.

Here are my ratings with just a few remaining:

* truly very good
** excellent 
*** superb, challenges any previous favorites
**** a clear new new favorite

No. 1 with Ozawa, *
No. 2 with Järvi, ***
No. 5 with Haitink, ***
No. 6 with Jansons, ***
No. 7 with Thielemann, *
No. 8 with Mehta, **


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Knorf said:


> I'm now on the Mehta Eighth, and it's very good. I think I've sampled enough to be able to say this is definitely a worthy set for your average Brucknerian. However, get the cheap download (I recommend getting the 24 bit FLAC even if you think your system isn't great), and don't pay the high premium for the extravagant "collectors edition" packaging for the physical discs, unless you just gotta.
> 
> Also, it seems the detailed versions of each symphony aren't conveniently listed, so I tracked that information down, to the best of my knowledge, to post here. It wasn't easy, let me tell you.
> 
> ...


Thanks.

I just updated the conductor data in my iTunes

It uploaded as THIS:

*Artist*: Berliner Philharmoniker

*Album Artist*: Berliner Philharmoniker, Bernard Haitink, Seiji Ozawa, Herbert Blomstedt, Zubin Mehta, Mariss Jansons, Christian Thielemann, Paavo Järvi and Sir Simon Rattle

I think it would be a hoot to watch a Symphony being led simultaneously by eight different conductors.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

thejewk said:


> Thanks for that Knorf, I've just purchased it now and wasn't looking forward to the headache of figuring out which versions they were.


Will ya'all disown me if I don't really care which version it is?


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

pianozach said:


> Will ya'all disown me if I don't really care which version it is?


Yep. The paperwork has been filed.


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

I've been refraining myself since reading Knorf's, IMO mind-challenging, remarks on CT's Bruckner 7. CT was even awarded a star. 

And my curiosity finally overtook my senses and I listened to it. The first two movements are nice, beautiful lullabies. Hats off to CT, he really understands that in these two movements every promising sign has to be aborted. Well, don't wake up the baby. That's not negotiable, isn't it? So why did he play the Nowak cymbal then? After that he seems to be tiptoeing out of the baby's room while fearing that the Mrs. might find out just how loud he was a moment ago. OK, I understand. Men. We all do things like that once in a while.

The last two movements do come alive, ah, awake, like in a easy-going, lazy Sunday afternoon. But Mr. CT, you are a highflying star stick waver, so shouldn't you be studying a score, or calling people on their rest day, or giving interviews on a Sunday? OK I know I know, this is Bruckner 7, not a Sinfonia Biographica about CT. But again, that coziness and laziness. It sounds like an introvert's perfect retirement life. What is shocking to me is that, maybe the last two movements really should sound like this, in order to stay consistent with his concept of the whole symphony... this is mind-challenging.

If this sounds like bashing, it is not! I do admire it for its beauty and coziness, even though this is not the kind of Bruckner 7 that I would enjoy, so don't crucify me!


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Kiki, I have no quibble with your assessment, one very similar to my own thoughts, actually. I think my favorite recordings of Bruckner in general are going to require a little less _Gemütlichkeit_ and a bit more _Feuer_, or at least _Bewegung_.

But I do think the Thielemann is very good. "Just" very good, for me, though. And in the rarefied air of greatest Bruckner performances, it'll leave it as an open question whether I will return to this Seventh often, whether "just very good" is good enough for more than infrequent revisits. I might if for no other reason than that the Berliner Philharmoniker sound so freaking good.

Now I'm listening to the Haitink Fourth. The first movement I found vaguely disappointing: overall very beautiful but perhaps insufficiently _bewegt_.


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## Marc (Jun 15, 2007)

Becca said:


> :lol::lol::lol: ............


But he's right, you know.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Verdict on the Haitink Fourth. The good: it's a beautiful and highly poetic account, and the Berliner Philharmoniker play with every bit of the quality and commitment you would demand of this orchestra that is top of the top shelf. 

The Andante is superb, even sublime, effectively revealing a degree of real pathos and tragedy, really something special. I feared at first it might be too slow, but there's genuine catharsis here. I might revisit this recording regularly for this movement alone. 

The Scherzo is excellent: absolutely exciting and heroic, and the Finale is convincingly paced and revels in the complexity of form and layer, without losing its way, dramatic and challenging to the last.

The problem is that first movement. Without a greater sense of propulsion and tension to set things off, the genuine quality of the rest, the pathos of the second, exhilaration of the third, and drama of the fourth, is undermined. 

It's a pity. For the second, third, and final movements, this might be competing with my all-time favorites. 

But as it is, for me it's "only" very good. That second movement, though...

Caveat: I've only listened through this Fourth once. YMMV.


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## Marc (Jun 15, 2007)

Knorf said:


> [...]
> the Berliner Philharmoniker sound so freaking good.
> [...]


This.

(From what I've heard so far... just gorgeous playing.)


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Marc said:


> This.
> 
> (From what I've heard so far... just gorgeous playing.)


I haven't listened to the whole thing yet, but, yes, I agree.

I can't help think that kudos should also go to the recording staff. These sound so wonderfully lush. Deep, crisp, present.


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

Knorf said:


> Kiki, I have no quibble with your assessment, one very similar to my own thoughts, actually. I think my favorite recordings of Bruckner in general are going to require a little less _Gemütlichkeit_ and a bit more _Feuer_, or at least _Bewegung_.
> 
> But I do think the Thielemann is very good. "Just" very good, for me, though. And in the rarefied air of greatest Bruckner performances, it'll leave it as an open question whether I will return to this Seventh often, whether "just very good" is good enough for more than infrequent revisits. I might if for no other reason than that the Berliner Philharmoniker sound so freaking good.
> 
> Now I'm listening to the Haitink Fourth. The first movement I found vaguely disappointing: overall very beautiful but perhaps insufficiently _bewegt_.


Absolutely. Add _schnell_, and I'd be extra happy, although _schnell_ alone without what you stated will not work IMO. I understand others may be drawn more to the monumental/spiritual side of Bruckner. That's alright, we're all different in what we like.

I'm onto Blomstedt's 1873 3rd now... Listened through it once and I found it very impressive. The first mvt and the scherzo sound luxuriously psychotic! This is Bruckner going wild with glorious orchestral playing. Inbal/Fankfurt among 1873 3rds may sound more psychotic in the scherzo but no way as luxurious as this. (It's like comparing the artistically calculated horror of _Hellraiser_ to the blunt viciousness of _Evil Dead_. :lol And then Blomstedt seems to be able to make that always-breaking-up slow mvt bind cohesively. The one nitpicking thing I may think of is that the 1873 version does not include the awesome scherzo coda. Even so it's still very promising. I'm looking forward to listening to it again.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Yep, the Blomstedt Third is _really_ good, competitive in every way with his outstanding Gewandhausorchester performance.

But I really am not fond of the original, 1873 version. All of those Wagner quotes really bug me! I truly find the 1877 much better.

Actually, whenever Bruckner saw fit to make his _own_ revisions (and not just horrible cuts to even get the music performed), I think he was usually entirely correct, and the revisions are substantial improvements. I'm not keen on the original versions of 3, 4, or 8, actually.


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## Ned Low (Jul 29, 2020)

Knorf said:


> Yep, the Blomstedt Third is _really_ good, competitive in every way with his outstanding Gewandhausorchester performance.
> 
> But I really am not fond of the original, 1873 version. All of those Wagner quotes really bug me! I truly find the 1877 much better.
> 
> Actually, whenever Bruckner saw fit to make his _own_ revisions (and not just horrible cuts to even get the music performed), I think he was usually entirely correct, and the revisions are substantial improvements. I'm not keen on the original versions of 3, 4, or 8, actually.


I agree with you on that the revised versions of the 4th and 8th symphonies are superior to the original ones, but i personally prefer the 1873 version of the 3rd symphony.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

I've listened through the complete cycle, and here's where I am with what I think.

Final ratings (until I listen to the cycle again and change my mind):

* truly very good
** excellent 
*** superb, challenges any previous favorites
**** a clear new new favorite

No. 1 with Ozawa, *
No. 2 with Järvi, ***
No. 3 with Blomstedt, **
No. 4 with Haitink, **
No. 5 with Haitink, ***
No. 6 with Jansons, ***
No. 7 with Thielemann, *
No. 8 with Mehta, **
No. 9 with Rattle, ** (I rate this one higher than Rattle's previous)

So, no clear new favorites (although: among four-movement Ninths only, this is probably my favorite now), but a truly excellent set overall, well worth investigation, and not just by Bruckner fanatics like most of us. For me, the biggest standouts were the Järvi Second, the Haitink Fifth, and the Jansons Sixth. The Blomstedt Third might have been as well, and for many listeners probably should be, but I just don't enjoy the original version as much.

ETA: I revisited No. 4, and I think I was too harsh on Haitink's first movement. It's grown on me. I had a gnawing instinct that it might...


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I'm totally with you on the Haitink 5th, Knorfy, but I rate that 4th just as highly. The Mehta 8th is really good too.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Merl said:


> The Mehta 8th is really good too.


I noticed in the 8th, Mehta does some pushing and pulling of the phrases. Do you think he is playing to the crowd, and if it were a studio recording, it would be different?


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Manxfeeder said:


> I noticed in the 8th, Mehta does some pushing and pulling of the phrases. Do you think he is playing to the crowd, and if it were a studio recording, it would be different?


Yeah, I agree but it actually works for me. Would probably prefer it straighter but it's enjoyable.


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