# Listen to what you like.



## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Just my observation, and observations can be wrong... But I feel like there is this pressure to somehow like things that other people like. Yes I'm complaining about human nature probably. I've just noticed here that it seems like people listen to certain things out of a sense of duty like they are throwing mud on great masterworks if they don't listen to and find some sort of appreciation for the "canon" of classical music.

With these objective-subjective threads recently, some of the objectivist arguments seem like they are coming from the standpoint that there is something universally great with whatever is the top piece or pieces and that people who don't like such masterpieces are blind to this supposed greatness. Perhaps I'm exaggerating.

This is exemplified by the attitude that some composers like John Williams get. His music, though many obviously find it quite enjoyable, is often scoffed at as if you have bad taste if you like it. Why? I've seen the same with _Carmina Burana_. Oh that brutish stuff!  And don't even mention pop music.

The same goes if you don't like something that is highly esteemed (or at least highly esteemed by some). I'll never forget the responses I got in that thread where I said I found Bach boring. Oh dear... And you're darned if you like John Cage as well as if you don't (or any modern music for that matter).

Apparently some people think that classical music fans are snobby, and well, after spending a year posting here, I think that's somewhat true. Sure not everyone is, and I'm not calling anyone out, but I definitely understand why some feel that way. It's probably true with every genre of music though to be honest.

Maybe some will not like this, or they will take it the wrong way. But I just don't care anymore. I simply don't have a thick enough skin for this and don't plan on posting here anymore anytime soon.

Please just listen to whatever floats your boat. You do you.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

I think we all here listen to whatever that "floats the boat". And many here including me branch out to discover other works by other composers. I also like to evaluate a work, which I find helps me to appreciate the work on a deeper level. For me, listening to it on its own and finding it enjoyable is sublime but it is even more meaningful to know why from a musical point of view, the merits of the work.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

*I know the OP mentioned objectivism/subjectivism, John Williams AND John Cage, but can we please not use this thread for yet more arguments on these particular topics?*


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

adriesba said:


> Just my observation, and observations can be wrong... But I feel like there is this pressure to somehow like things that other people like. Yes I'm complaining about human nature probably. I've just noticed here that it seems like people listen to certain things out of a sense of duty like they are throwing mud on great masterworks if they don't listen to and find some sort of appreciation for the "canon" of classical music.....


There is always pressure to like what critics and influential people feel are the 'greatest recordings'. Sitting down and listening to some of these great recordings you might wonder what the fuss is about. I have, ever since I came here, and I'm always on the lookout for new / unheralded recordings of the pieces I like. Naturally, there's a pressure to conform and some will blindly follow what their favourite critic / person says but how you handle that is down to you. You can accept that you're not going to change their POV or you can challenge the norm and argue your corner and get others to truly listen. Human nature is that many people have fixed mindsets so you have to try and alter that mindset. It can be done. What will you achieve by flouncing? Nothing. I avoid the objective / subjective threads like the plague as they bore me rigid. My advice to you is do the same and concentrate on discussing pieces / recordings that you really love. This forum is no worse than any other forum (if you really want fixed mindsets then join an audiophile musical equipment forum). They are full of opinionated people but that's the way it is. You should focus on changing opinions by offering an alternative, not directly challenging deeply held opinions. Classical music listeners are no more snobs than valve amp snobs, FLAC snobs, shellacosnobs or guitar snobs. Many people leave this site as they feel that there are too many posters set in their ways. I've found, over the years, that this isn't really the case, it's just that people are comfortable with what they have. Offering a fresh perspective and alternatives is always welcome. How you go about doing this will determine how well you fit in.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Everyone has their own taste, and that's how it should be, no matter what others say.

It's good advice to not even bother with threads like the subjectivity/objectivity conundrum, that go nowhere slowly.

There are plenty of other threads at the site though. One that I like a lot, and that could do with more participation, is Ingelou's _Chain reactions_, which gives you the opportunity to explore relatively short and usually less well-known pieces selected by fellow members, and submit your own.

Chain Reactions


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Of course we should each listen to what we like and love and of course we might want to share our tastes with others in the hope that others do too. Also, personally, I like enthusiasm and am often nudged to try something when it so clearly excites someone else. Sometimes this doesn't work for me but sometimes it opens a door. I find negative views have very little influence on me.

But I do also think that it is legitimate to critically discuss the value of music. I think it is possible to recognise something as great without liking it. And the converse is also true: it is possible to love something but to know that it is somehow less than great.

I am not sure I agree with Merl, above, but know his recommendations are often (usually) a reliable guide for me. I am not one of those who are suspicious of people who like music that the critics tell us to like. Critics know a lot. Some are perverse and some value qualities that I don't. But at least they are mostly better equipped than me to explain where their judgments come from (not that all care to!) than most of us and they often draw on knowledge that we often lack. There are many who like to think of themselves as critics who just don't have the knowledge or facility to explain their views _*but still present them as being more than just "what rocks my boat"*_. I am somewhat allergic to them!

But, in the end, I love what I love. And I dislike what I dislike. And I am cold to what leaves me cold, while knowing that one day I might find I was wrong.

But we also need to remember the context in which we are doing our listening. While I was growing up it was expected that an educated person would have some familiarity with and openness to classical music. That time is gone. It is now a little suspect in the wider world to be a classical music fan and almost praiseworthy to declare against classical music. Some literature (Shakespeare, sometimes) can also suffer from the same thing. And with this trend has come the use of the term classical music to describe all sorts of music that, for me, is not classical music and cannot do what even merely good classical music can do. And that irritates me more than it should!


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Regarding adriesba's OP, first I would say please stick around and second, maybe just avoid the threads that get acrimonious over such matters.

For my part, I enjoy the music from Boney M (honestly!) to Helmut Lachenmann and I'm not judgemental about music.

I will admit to posting a couple of mocking posts concerning the music of J. Williams and John Rutter, whose music I find truly appalling, but it was NEVER directed at the listeners.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

I've noticed a 'serious' cult of continental German, Austrian, and French composers, with Italians and Scandinavians tolerable as fluffy mascots.

But Russians?, the British?, Americans? In a polite house?


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

Everywhere in life there are people who have entrenched thoughts on things and forums allow some to vent their particular views in a sometimes inappropriate/over zealous manner. It is sad that these posters and their intolerance can stop more open minded listeners from presenting their views for fear of the verbal backlash that can result. 
Frankly, at times, the behaviour of some borders on bullying - however I would urge the OP and others to read the posts, chuckle and move on. I have said this before and will continue to believe this - no one has the right to say you are wrong in what your musical preferences are, by all means discuss in a reasonable manner but the need for derogatory comments on differences imo are totally unnecessary.

My maxim - I am always right in what I enjoy listening to and no one can agrue with that unless they listen with my mind and ears. If those choices are the objectively or subjectively best recordings (sorry for using the O and S words) matters not a jot, if you gain pleasure from them that is surely what its all about.
Trust your judgement and those of others you know have a similar taste but there is little point in listening to music that you don't enjoy in any way just because someone says you should.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

As far as performances go, I think it is one of the hallmarks of great music that there is always something new to find in it. That's why I don't tend to talk about "the best recording of something" (claims like that usually make me suspicious of the recommendation!) but do enjoy a wide range of approaches to music that I love. But there are many recordings and performances of great and much played works that don't do much for me, either because they are too safe and tell me nothing new or because they just don't catch any magic.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Art Rock said:


> It's good advice to not even bother with threads *like the subjectivity/objectivity conundrum, that go nowhere slowly*.


Go nowhere? That's one way to look at it. I'd say they often go exactly where they should within a page or two; It's just that a number of people fail to recognize the destination.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Agree with OP. Listen to what you like. I think there is merit to any form of music. I still listen to rap sometimes, something even rock fans scoff at (I think it was some Porno for Pyros member saying rap is short for crap). I don't try to compare with Classical. Have to admit my own relatives think I'm a bit snobby when it comes to Classical, maybe because I sometimes can't contain some value judgements when I'm hearing their K-pop. I look at it this way, any instance or genre in music is a different cut of the same fabric. There is a different sort of music for everyone where they are in their Life's journey.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I've experienced all of those things you describe, adriesba. Often, the forum has become less a meeting place and more of a battle ground. The irony is that a lot of the battles aren't relevant in the wider world, not even in the little world of classical music. 

For example, some on TC talk as if the canon where fixed in the past, but the reality is that it is continuously evolving. In the past fifty or so years, different concepts of the canon have emerged. Some break it up into parts based on genre (which includes previously marginalised categories, such film music). Others, like William Weber, distinguish between repertoire as performance (what's played, which can include not only live performance but recordings), as scholarly (musicology and music history) and pedagogy (what is taught about music).

Apart from theory, the reality on the ground doesn't match what's happening on TC. If you live in any decent sized city in the Western world you'll be able to go to many performances of classical music which don't fit into the categories of the fossilised (basically 1950's, or modernist) version of music which has dominated this forum more or less ever since I've been a member.

Many years ago, I talked to a friend about what's going on here, and he said that what canon pushers are doing is forcing their own canons onto other people. I say don't listen to those people, if they're not living in the present you don't have to do the same. Their distorted and outdated views of the canon simply isn't your problem.

I could go on about snobs. I've come across plenty, and just like the canon pushers, they try to define what is a genuine classical listener based on their own values. I've had the misfortune to talk to many types, and what they have in common is that they will waste no time telling you why for any reason you don't stack up to being the real deal. Its so lame. Try take no heed and give them as wide berth as possible.

When you say you want to leave, all I can say is that I hear you. I've had breaks from here, they last at least a year. Recently I've come back after about 18 months away. Some aspects of what you talk about contributed to that, but it was mainly wanting to reduce screen time in general and also pressures from everyday living. I've found breaks like that to be beneficial, so if you feel you need to do it, no harm in taking them.

My best wishes to you, and thank you for bringing up this topic. These things need to be discussed. I think its relevant to anybody who has spent a fair amount of time here.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

^ lol @ "fossilised".


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

adriesba said:


> Maybe some will not like this, or they will take it the wrong way. But I just don't care anymore. I simply don't have a thick enough skin for this...


I do. If you have some confidence in whatever music you love and the reasons you love it, who cares what anyone else says.


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

adriesba said:


> But I just don't care anymore. I simply don't have a thick enough skin for this and don't plan on posting here anymore anytime soon.
> 
> Please just listen to whatever floats your boat. You do you.


This reminds me of my "say my piece and run" relatives. Hope he/she/whatever feels better.


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## Wilhelm Theophilus (Aug 8, 2020)

adriesba said:


> Just my observation, and observations can be wrong... But I feel like there is this pressure to somehow like things that other people like. Yes I'm complaining about human nature probably. I've just noticed here that it seems like people listen to certain things out of a sense of duty like they are throwing mud on great masterworks if they don't listen to and find some sort of appreciation for the "canon" of classical music.
> 
> With these objective-subjective threads recently, some of the objectivist arguments seem like they are coming from the standpoint that there is something universally great with whatever is the top piece or pieces and that people who don't like such masterpieces are blind to this supposed greatness. Perhaps I'm exaggerating.
> 
> ...


I don't get the point of this post/thread, what is it?

We're all free to listen to what ever music we like. People are also free to tell you or me that the music we like is rubbish.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Wilhelm Theophilus said:


> We're all free to listen to what ever music we like. People are also free to tell you or me that the music we like is rubbish.


I think this is true..But I question whether telling other people that the music they like is rubbish is a wise path to follow. You may be asked to demonstrate that it is rubbish, and that might prove problematic, and thus call your judgment into question. And it might, for some reason, arouse an animosity towards you--I can't understand why, but there it is-- that again will ensure that your position fails to get the respect it surely deserves.

I use "you" generically.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Why is is important to tell someone the music they like is rubbish? Would it not be more accurate, and certainly more polite, to say, "it's not for me?"


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

SanAntone said:


> Why is is important to tell someone the music they like is rubbish? Would it not be more accurate, and certainly more polite, to say, "it's not for me?"


I recommend my preferred usage that "I am not the audience for which the music was intended, and hence am ill-equipped to properly appreciate its merits." Copyright Applied For.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

I find that the people who are quick to tell you that what you are listening to is rubbish tend to fall into the ‘narrow-minded classical music aficionados’ camp. 

Those with broader taste and a wider appreciation of what’s actually happening in the musical world tend to be less dogmatic and judgemental. IMHO of course!


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Barbebleu said:


> I find that the people who are quick to tell you that what you are listening to is rubbish tend to fall into the 'narrow-minded classical music' camp. Those with broader taste and a wider appreciation of what's actually happening in the musical world tend to be less dogmatic and judgemental. IMHO of course!


The problem with that though is it could be rephrased "those who call me narrow-minded are usually those addicted to musical rubbish". :lol: Perspective is everything. Hey, I love Bach. Others say he's boring. Doesn't hurt my feelings.


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## Wilhelm Theophilus (Aug 8, 2020)

SanAntone said:


> Why is is important to tell someone the music they like is rubbish? Would it not be more accurate, and certainly more polite, to say, "it's not for me?"


Its not important to tell someone the music they like is rubbish. But if they believe the music I like is rubbish they are free to say so, and I am free to contest that.

They might not be of the view that it is only "not for them" but that musically it is inferior.

That is what this whole forum is about, discussing music, musical tastes, different pieces and composers. If someone says the music I love is rubbish I'm not gonna cry, I'm more likely to laugh at them because I know its good.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

This thread has provoked some revealing comments. For me, job one of the professional music critic is to educate the reader regarding genres of music in which he or she is knowledgeable, in an entertaining and enjoyable way (mainly through skilled writing.) Their opinions as to merit of specific composers or music are at most after-dinner mints. Of course, they tend to write about the music they like. The best ones usually realize that is enough in the opinion department.

Fortunately, posters in a forum like TC have an easier job (in my humble opinion!) We can let others know about music we like that falls within the classical music category, especially what may be unknown or less well known to others. In a couple of threads I did my best to explain how I would define "classical music" and why. Agree with me there or not, at least that put my comments about what I like, or interests me, in an understandable context.

I find the "What are the top 500 pieces" and "Who are the top 10 composers" kind of topic less interesting and useful. I think the OP is right that this sometimes encourages some exclusionary or even bullying behavior here, for example along the lines of "Give the people who want to discuss xyz another forum it isn't classical music (or it isn't music at all) and we don't want to discuss it".

But more importantly, I don't have much need for top 500 lists. One of the classical music radio stations I grew up with did one every new years eve. (I forget how long it took. More than a day, obviously.) It's the specialized knowledge and/or tastes many people here have, often but not always on the fringes of what some would consider "classical music", that I value.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

consuono said:


> I do. If you have some confidence in whatever music you love and the reasons you love it, who cares what anyone else says.


I _have_ confidence in the baroque and early music that I love and the reasons that I love it - but on a personal level, I still care if someone posts a derogatory reply. It can result in a sleepless night.

I don't suppose I'm alone in caring about what other people say - if one is sensitive enough to love classical music, one is sensitive full stop.

And for that reason, I'd never presume to tell someone else that the music they loved was no good. I'd just say (if I had to say anything) that it wasn't to my taste - but first of all, I would try it.

Who knows - I might be agreeably surprised and expand my brain.

That's why, though I don't spend a lot of time listening to music of a type I don't generally care for, I think it's important not to listen *only* to the music I like.

I find it helpful to look at what the critics say, but I make my own mind up.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Wilhelm Theophilus said:


> If someone says the music I love is rubbish I'm not gonna cry, I'm more likely to laugh at them because I know its good.


Sounds like the ingredients are in place for a Mutual Contempt Society. Each laughs at the other's choices, laughing at rather than laughing with. But it's literally a Free Forum.


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

Nereffid said:


> *I know the OP mentioned objectivism/subjectivism, John Williams AND John Cage, but can we please not use this thread for yet more arguments on these particular topics?*


But those are TC's greatest hits!


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Wilhelm Theophilus said:


> Its not important to tell someone the music they like is rubbish. But if they believe the music I like is rubbish they are free to say so, and I am free to contest that.
> 
> They might not be of the view that it is only "not for them" but that musically it is inferior.
> 
> That is what this whole forum is about, discussing music, musical tastes, different pieces and composers. If someone says the music I love is rubbish I'm not gonna cry, I'm more likely to laugh at them because I know its good.


I agree this forum is about discussing music, musical tastes, different pieces and composers, but the environment here can either promote that discussion or inhibit it. The tone of how an opinion is expressed can either be confrontational or not.

How important is it for you to win an argument over whether some music is rubbish or not?


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

SanAntone said:


> How important is it for you to win an argument over whether some music is rubbish or not?


I suppose it depends on how rubbish the music is. 

(Just kidding.)


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

Nereffid said:


> *I know the OP mentioned objectivism/subjectivism, John Williams AND John Cage, but can we please not use this thread for yet more arguments on these particular topics?*


Without violating any of those directives I think I can say that a more generously inclusive environment of musical topics open for discussion (so long we're actually talking about music and not using music as a cover to promote other agendas) tends to be friendlier, less confrontational and more enlightening than a rigidly exclusive environment. It's usually those who endorse the latter approach who make provocative comments such as "This isn't classical music!" or "This isn't music!", or the all too common, "This is bad music!" As Strange Magic mentioned, a "Mutual Contempt Society" (he does know how to turn a phrase, doesn't he?) probably doesn't produce the best atmosphere or the most useful and interesting discussions.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

fluteman said:


> Without violating any of those directives I think I can say that a more generously inclusive environment of musical topics open for discussion (so long we're actually talking about music and not using music as a cover to promote other agendas) tends to be friendlier, less confrontational and more enlightening than a rigidly exclusive environment. It's usually those who endorse the latter approach who make provocative comments such as "This isn't classical music!" or "This isn't music!", or the all too common, "This is bad music!" As Strange Magic mentioned, a "Mutual Contempt Society" (he does know how to turn a phrase, doesn't he?) probably doesn't produce the best atmosphere or the most useful and interesting discussions.


Why are the only "proper" responses either approval or being silent? What could be so "useful and interesting" about "discussions" that are so hemmed-in and one-sided, no matter how "inclusive" they might be? Ultimately those who don't subscribe to such niceties will be the ones excluded. "This is bad music" is a forbidden thought?


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Merl said:


> ^ lol @ "fossilised".


I know it sounds funny. I could have also have said tribal, sectarian but I guess you got my point.



SanAntone said:


> I agree this forum is about discussing music, musical tastes, different pieces and composers, but the environment here can either promote that discussion or inhibit it. *The tone of how an opinion is expressed can either be confrontational or not. *


I think that's true. Its also about how many times we talk about music we don't like, or even hate. Its okay to do that, but if it becomes too frequent it not only produces a bad vibe but also becomes tiresome. Its generally commonsense to try and not focus too much on the negatives of life. If we let hatred and anger overtake our lives, it can't be healthy for us but its also not good for those around us.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Sid James said:


> If we let hatred and anger overtake our lives, it can't be healthy for us but its also not good for those around us.


An uncle of mine suffered a stroke last year. We think it is mostly stress related. He wasn't too overweight, he didn't smoke or drink to excess but had a stressful life for many years. You are right, it is not healthy.

Quote Master Yoda: _"Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering."_


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Sid James said:


> I know it sounds funny. I could have also have said tribal, sectarian but I guess you got my point.
> 
> I think that's true. Its also about how many times we talk about music we don't like, or even hate. Its okay to do that, but if it becomes too frequent it not only produces a bad vibe but also becomes tiresome. Its generally commonsense to try and not focus too much on the negatives of life. If we let hatred and anger overtake our lives, it can't be healthy for us but its also not good for those around us.


That's true in a general sense, but on a forum like this I think it would apply mostly to those who take criticism of music or a genre they like as if it's a personal affront...and believe me there are some participants here like that. Some of the (pardon the use of the term) greatest musical minds could be withering critics.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

consuono said:


> That's true in a general sense, but on a forum like this I think it would apply mostly to those who take criticism of music or a genre they like as if it's a personal affront...and believe me there are some participants here like that. Some of the (pardon the use of the term) greatest musical minds could be withering critics.


However, I do see and have experienced situations where criticism of music is used as a type of personal affront. I've experienced harrasment and bullying here, both of overt and covert nature. The conversation ended up having nothing much to do with music, it got to the level of personal attacks. Since it takes two to tango, the line between the bully and victim gets blurred. In the worst cases this type of situation got the better of me, I bit back and I gained infraction points.

I made a mistake in lowering myself to that level, but I don't regret fighting back. I'm not weak for responding negatively, its the person who consistently displays such behaviour who is weak and insecure.

I've read many books on music and nothing on this forum compares to that in terms of actual content, but what I'm expecting is some type of reasonably respectful conversation. Its more or less the norm on this forum that certain topics are seen as a free for all by people who like to lower themselves, and others, to the most primitive type of behaviour. Maybe its normal on the internet, but we can still talk about it to build awareness, even though this aspect of TC isn't likely to change.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Sid James said:


> However, I do see and have experienced situations where criticism of music is used as a type of personal affront. I've experienced harrasment and bullying here, both of overt and covert nature. The conversation ended up having nothing much to do with music, it got to the level of personal attacks.


Oh, I know. I've been called a fascist sympathizer and was challenged to some kind of street brawl for criticizing contemporary music.


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

Sid James said:


> Maybe its normal on the internet


It is, but TC is much better than some other places I can think of.



consuono said:


> Oh, I know. I've been called a fascist sympathizer and was challenged to some kind of street brawl for criticizing contemporary music.


What??


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

consuono said:


> Oh, I know. I've been called a fascist sympathizer and was challenged to some kind of street brawl for criticizing contemporary music.


If that's the case, its an example of sort of situation I was referring to. Unfortunately these things happen when things move to a state of high dudgeon and the heat is turned up. Its so easy to fall into the trap of playing that sort of Nazi card. I've done it, albeit not with any regularity.



Portamento said:


> It is, but TC is much better than some other places I can think of.


Despite my criticisms, I think that the positives of this forum still outweigh its negatives.



Barbebleu said:


> I find that the people who are quick to tell you that what you are listening to is rubbish tend to fall into the 'narrow-minded classical music aficionados' camp.
> 
> Those with broader taste and a wider appreciation of what's actually happening in the musical world tend to be less dogmatic and judgemental. IMHO of course!


I think its more about attitude. The other thing is sometimes due to factors like personality type, some individuals will never get along. It might not matter what we have in common with certain people, because other factors might overrule things like taste in music. That's life.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Yeah, I got challenged to a fight on another forum over a musical opinion. He backed down when I told him I know Karate, Judo, Jiu-jitsu, Sumo and several other Japanese words.


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## Wilhelm Theophilus (Aug 8, 2020)

Barbebleu said:


> I find that the people who are quick to tell you that what you are listening to is rubbish tend to fall into the 'narrow-minded classical music aficionados' camp.
> 
> Those with broader taste and a wider appreciation of what's actually happening in the musical world tend to be less dogmatic and judgemental. IMHO of course!


First of all you call people narrow-minded, which is making a judgement of them and then you say your less judgemental :lol:


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Portamento said:


> It is, but TC is much better than some other places I can think of.


For sure - try some of the political forums - esp at present with all of the terrible division and disunity....
things definitely get wild, and it's been that way for quite some time.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

One of the best things about "classical" music is that it can be enjoyed on many different levels -

we have the very experienced listeners, performers, who are really into the nitty-gritty of each performance or recording - know the works intimately, may have performed them numerous times, have heard many, many versions, and have a wide basis for comparison between performances....they know all the major solos, the difficult tutti sections, the chamber-music passages, etc, etc...they are familiar with the performers themselves; that's fine, and those listeners can enjoy music on that level...

we have listeners who simply enjoy the beautiful melodies, harmonies, rhythms of various works - have come to know them, identify them and enjoy them on a more simple, but equally valid basis....they are not so concerned with which oboist does a better job, or whose brass section sounds better, or which conductor takes a more "correct" tempo...
we have newcomers to music, who do so enjoy the sounds they hear, are eager to learn more, but may seem overwhelmed by the number of choices available...their attraction, like all of ours, imo, is a basic "gut" reaction, an instinctive attraction to sounds that they find pleasing, interesting and/or and satisfying.
and, of course, we have listeners on all points of the spectrum between those extremes....knowledgeable listeners who have become familiar with much music, many famous performers and many different versions of their favorite works...
Classical music has great appeal for listeners on every level - and the listeners' enjoyment is perfectly valid at whatever level they may find themselves.

I find that music appreciation is much like professional sports appreciation - there are those who simply enjoy a great contest, a hotly contested game - people understand the basic concept - score more points then your opponent...they may not be familiar with plays, strategies, tactics, personnel, etc, but they certainly understand that your team scoring a goal, touchdown or home run is a good thing....detailed analysis has little appeal...they are interested in the score.
on the other extreme, devout sports aficionados will of course, analyze every play, every matchup, every pitch, every pass....<<the 3-2 zone defense broke down>> <<the weakside split S-2 run worked perfectly>> <<he threw a changeup on a 2-2 count with a man in scoring position>> <<is this team better than the 1992 championship team??>> etc, etc...sports commentators go nuts with this analysis.

Again, both levels of enjoyment are perfectly valid and any and all should feel comfortable with whatever level of enjoyment at which they find themselves. If one wishes to learn more about music or sports, that knowledge and exposure is readily available thru all sorts of media. 
returning to music - I think it is important that one level of listener does not condescend, demean or put down those on a different level....that does not help the cause. I love the newcomer posters on TC who ask - _where do I start?? how can I tell one recording from another?? what are some more works like XXXX??, which I've come to really enjoy?? How do I know if I got a good performance??_
These are people who want to learn, want to delve into the great world of classical music...we should be sure to encourage them and assist them in their newfound endeavor, which has brought so much joy and fulfillment to us all...


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