# Bruckners several versions of his symphonies - a problem?



## Aries (Nov 29, 2012)

Anton Bruckners has left several different versions of at least his 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 8th symphony. In addition to that there are versions from others like Schalk, Haas, Mahler or Samale for almost every of his symphonys.

This version diversity is often seen as a problem. But what is the point?

For me it is just interessting. If there are multiple versions of a symphony, the symphony takes much longer to get boring, because you can find out new things even if you know one version perfectly.

The matter is also often treated like if there has to be one best version to find, which is the only valid version. But for me every version has its advantages and disadvantages and I want them all to peacefully coexist. Even if one version is overall better, this does not mean that the other versions have no additional value.

Each of Bruckners symphonys has a substance, but there are different ways to express a substance. The fact there is one detailed solution, doesn't mean the another detailed solution is wrong. Bruckner is great in finding detailed solutions, but the main point of his symphonys are the basic messages. Bruckner wasn't shy of changing details, because details are not the point of his work.

Versions from other persons are not in general a problem, as long as they don't supersede Bruckners versions. If every version has advantages over the others, it makes sense to combine the best parts like Robert Haas tried with the 8th. The versions of the Schalk brothers were a problem because they supersede the original versions, but today I find these rare versions interessting because of alternative intonations of some parts. The reconstruction of the great finale of the 9th symphony by scientists is a great and necessary achievement. And if a composer wants to make his own realization of a Bruckner symphony like Mahler did with the 4th, why not? As long as it does not supersede the versions made by Bruckner, I see no problem.


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

agree with you. I don't see any problem.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

helenora said:


> agree with you. I don't see any problem.


Me neither, you can always read Granate posts about his intensive research.


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

Pugg said:


> Me neither, you can always read Granate posts about his intensive research.


my intensive research ended when I found Bruckner's symphonies conducted by Celibidache. 
Everything is said. Nothing to be added. 
I know some people don't particularly like this conductor, but for me holy Grail is found


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

helenora said:


> my intensive research ended when I found Bruckner's symphonies conducted by Celibidache.
> Everything is said. Nothing to be added.
> I know some people don't particularly like this conductor, but for me holy Grail is found


I know Helenora, it was more towards O.P


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

Pugg said:


> Me neither, you can always read Granate posts about his intensive research.


it seems you are getting a bit sarcastic in this comment, aren't you?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

helenora said:


> it seems you are getting a bit sarcastic in this comment, aren't you?


Towards you....never, believe me.


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

Pugg said:


> Towards you....never, believe me.


I know,no worries


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## merlinus (Apr 12, 2014)

There is a very extensive discography at abruckner.com that lists recordings, conductors, and the versions used.

It may be interesting to track the changes made by Bruckner and others to his symphonies, but in terms of depth of emotions and heights of spiritual grandeur, I find Nowak (and occasionally Haas) to be best. The early versions, recorded by Simone Young and a few others, do not fully express those qualities for me.

As a writer, the edited versions of my articles are always better than the originals.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

Pugg said:


> Me neither, you can always read Granate posts about his intensive research.





helenora said:


> it seems you are getting a bit sarcastic in this comment, aren't you?


I would only find this sentence accurate if Pugg was refering to my in-depth literature and musical analysis. Other than that, I am doing an intensive research, thanks. 
:tiphat:

I take sides in the debate about Bruckner versions. For me Bruckner did a very positive work re-arranging many of his symphonies. I am a strong supporter of the second version of the No.8 even if the original is a masterpiece itself. Of the editions, I prefer *Haas* to Nowak but this is usually very specific. However, I try to give space to the original versions, and Simone Young conducts them like no other. 
*In my opinion, Bruckner should have put effort in re-arranging Symphony No.5*, as No.1 was not such a very defining edition. While original versions are more daring, joyful and make better impacts, I find Bruckner's true musical talent in the second or third versions of No.3, No.4 and No.8.



merlinus said:


> As a writer, the edited versions of my articles are always better than the originals.


So happens to me!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Granate said:


> I would only find this sentence accurate if Pugg was refering to my in-depth literature and musical analysis. Other than that, I am doing an intensive research, thanks.
> :tiphat:
> 
> I take sides in the debate about Bruckner versions. For me Bruckner did a very positive work re-arranging many of his symphonies. I am a strong supporter of the second version of the No.8 even if the original is a masterpiece itself. Of the editions, I prefer *Haas* to Nowak but this is usually very specific. However, I try to give space to the original versions, and Simone Young conducts them like no other.
> *In my opinion, Bruckner should have put effort in re-arranging Symphony No.5*, as No.1 was not such a very defining edition. While original versions are more daring, joyful and make better impacts, I find Bruckner's true musical talent in the second or third versions of No.3, No.4 and No.8.


I know you do, so see it as a well meant compliment.:tiphat:


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## Bruckner Anton (Mar 10, 2016)

Generally speaking, there is no big problem in choosing either Haas or Novak editions, both of which are authentic usually with minor differences. However, a few versions, such as the first versions of symphony 4 and 8, have sections that are completely different from later versions, and that were entirely removed and replaced by the composer during his revision work. Also, a few revisions made by other people contain changes that are inauthentic, such as the Loewe edition of symphony 9. Listeners should be very careful when choosing these versions.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I don't give a monkeys. I'll listen to any version. Has anyone recorded Bruckner symphonies using kazoo and ukeleles?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I enjoy Karajan's performance of the Third Symphony at around 58 minutes in length.

Yet if one chooses a different version, the symphony can get to be 75 minutes in length as I rudely found out!


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I like Juan Cahis' proposal that there are really 18 symphonies. That makes it more fun.


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## Totenfeier (Mar 11, 2016)

Merl said:


> I don't give a monkeys. I'll listen to any version. Has anyone recorded Bruckner symphonies using kazoo and ukeleles?


Aw, hell yeah! Now I've got thundering kazoo chorales ringing through my head! 

Imagine the beginning of the finale of the Eighth.....Oh, my everlovin'...rotflwtsdmf...:lol::lol::lol:


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