# When you "KNOW" a Piece.



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

This might be more of a sentiment to one who is still rather new to classical works, but I feel there is a different perspective given when you can recognize the majority of the parts of a work and differentiate it from other works. It goes from being one among a million other works, to something a bit more personal. 

I've exposed myself to much classical music over the last few weeks, and certainly feel this with a few pieces, the first movement of Beethoven's 1st symphony being a prime example.

Anyone know/experience what I'm talking about? It's especially a concept heavily prevalent in classical music, I feel, because the music is harder to get to know fully and conceptualize, and once you do, it becomes something more, at least to me.

:tiphat:


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Right now, I'm more at a place where I can recognize the era of a piece fairly well, and make an educated guess on the composer for several works. I even can recognize specific works to a specific composer, but may not know it extremely well. I've built up quite a collection, and am now going to spend some time getting to know the music more deeply.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about here, but I do love the Beethoven First Symphony. I've heard it at least a hundred times and can probably hum it through from beginning to end. Yet, each time I hear it it remains fresh. That's one of the great joys of Beethoven's music, and of great art in general. It doesn't become tired.

I believe I enjoy the Beethoven First moreso now than I did when it was not part of my consciousness. Yet, I sometimes envy those who have yet to hear the piece and thus can hear it for the first time with, so to speak, virgin ears. One of the reasons I seek out so much new music (and not just new as in contemporary or avant-garde, but new in the sense that it is new to me) is that I want the experience of hearing something for the first time. I value that experience as well as the experience of hearing a piece for a hundredth and one time. Both experiences are legitimate.

One of the great things about "classical" music is that it allows for so many different interpretations, so one may hear that Beethoven First Symphony performed by a great number of orchestras and conductors. Yet, even the same conductor with the same orchestra performing the work a second time will present something different from the first time. Listen to Toscanini's earliest recordings of the Beethoven symphonies and then to his later recordings. Timings are different. Orchestral color emphases differ. Thematic strands are emphasized differently. With rock music there seems less of this sense of interpretation. We tend to go with the original artist's recording. Some folks dislike "cover" versions because they so differ from the original artist's version. But this is even something different from an interpretation of a Beethoven symphony since the symphony is written down for specific instruments and specific notes. Covers of pop music can allow for harmonic changes or drastic tempo alterations that are anathema in classical music. Still, versions of the Beethoven First Symphony are many and varied and to my ears worth hearing.

During the centennial of the premiere of Stravinsky's _Rite of Spring_ there were a couple of box sets of the music put forth which featured multiple interpretations (orchestras/conductors) of the work. I picked up a couple of these, including a Decca set of 20 CDs presenting 38 recordings of the work. I worked my way through the box, stunned and startled along the way by the wondrous variety in the various recordings of this same piece. It was certainly not like hearing the same recording over and over 38 times.

There is much to explore.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

SONNET CLV said:


> I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about here, but I do love the Beethoven First Symphony. I've heard it at least a hundred times and can probably hum it through from beginning to end. Yet, each time I hear it it remains fresh. That's one of the great joys of Beethoven's music, and of great art in general. It doesn't become tired.
> 
> I believe I enjoy the Beethoven First moreso now than I did when it was not part of my consciousness. Yet, I sometimes envy those who have yet to hear the piece and thus can hear it for the first time with, so to speak, virgin ears. One of the reasons I seek out so much new music (and not just new as in contemporary or avant-garde, but new in the sense that it is new to me) is that I want the experience of hearing something for the first time. I value that experience as well as the experience of hearing a piece for a hundredth and one time. Both experiences are legitimate.
> 
> ...


You speak on my concept in the first two paragraphs quite eloquently, if I do say so myself. When you say you can appreciate Beethoven's first symphony more now that you know it very well is exactly what I'm talking about.

I'm certainly not trying to devalue the first listen, for there is great value in that, but I feel on the first listen of classical music, you more get the spirit and feel rather than exercise the left brain to grasp it intellectually. I liken it to a physicist that truly loves his field and the work he does; it's almost the opposite here, he grasps the concept intellectually of something like Einstein's theory of relativity, but then falls in love with it by seeing how elegant and beautiful the real world applications of this theory are; he learns to have feelings for it.

We are emotional and intellectual beings, I believe we need both to fully appreciate something, but as I said above, that doesn't mean we can't fall in love with a piece on first listen, it is in fact the very reason that we enjoy it that leads us to listen to it over and over again until it's full beauty is understood conceptually.

I do agree we always learn something new, especially in classical, because any given piece has so much depth and complexity there is always a nuance to pick up on.

With rock, like The Beatles, the music is just easier to grasp and it doesn't offer as much to absorb, and I don't feel there is as much to reveal in it. When it comes to progressive rock bands that are influenced by classical music, I feel they lack attention to dynamic details. This is why I prefer Jazz Fusion such as Jeff Beck, that music has the potential, and has reached it, for great dynamic nuance (but perhaps arguably less consistently as classical).


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Right now, I'm more at a place where I can recognize the era of a piece fairly well, and make an educated guess on the composer for several works. I even can recognize specific works to a specific composer, but may not know it extremely well. I've built up quite a collection, and am now going to spend some time getting to know the music more deeply.


You're definitely at an exciting place in your musical journey! I hope that you have a wonderful time delving into the pieces in your collection. In order to get to know each piece more deeply, you might find it helpful to keep a "listening journal" of sorts.

What I mean is, you could jot down your impressions of each piece, and maybe make note of certain sections that particularly stood out for you (such as, at 5:35 in the first movement of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony, there's a lovely little solo passage for oboe...) I sometimes encourage my students to try doing this...some of my students enjoy putting their musical experiences into words, but others find that it interferes with their listening experience. If you give it a try, let me know if you like it.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Bettina said:


> You're definitely at an exciting place in your musical journey! I hope that you have a wonderful time delving into the pieces in your collection. In order to get to know each piece more deeply, you might find it helpful to keep a "listening journal" of sorts.
> 
> What I mean is, you could jot down your impressions of each piece, and maybe make note of certain sections that particularly stood out for you (such as, at 5:35 in the first movement of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony, there's a lovely little solo passage for oboe...) I sometimes encourage my students to try doing this...some of my students enjoy putting their musical experiences into words, but others find that it interferes with their listening experience. If you give it a try, let me know if you like it.


I love that idea! I'd probably have sessions where I sought to write notes in my journal and differentiate it from simple listening.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

My experience of knowing a piece is mainly related to opera. There are a few operas that I am so familiar with that I can listen to the sound recording and pretty much know where I am at, what is going on, and imagine the scene. This is the case for me with Beethoven's Fidelio, Rossini's Barber of Seville, Wagner's Flying Dutchman, and probably also with Mussorgsky's Boris Godunov and Puccini's Tosca. I need to do this with more operas, but it is time consuming, requiring watching of many DVDs.


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

Beethoven's 9th symphony was the first piece of classical I ever listened to. In the beginning I only heard the scherzo mostly because it was bouncy and fun. But soon the 3rd movement caught my fancy and I listened to it a lot. I love that slow movement like I will never love almost any other piece ever.


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

shangoyal said:


> Beethoven's 9th symphony was the first piece of classical I ever listened to. In the beginning I only heard the scherzo mostly because it was bouncy and fun. But soon the 3rd movement caught my fancy and I listened to it a lot. I love that slow movement like I will never love almost any other piece ever.


Good choice, starting from the top


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> You speak on my concept in the first two paragraphs quite eloquently, if I do say so myself. When you say you can appreciate Beethoven's first symphony more now that you know it very well is exactly what I'm talking about.
> 
> I'm certainly not trying to devalue the first listen, for there is great value in that, but I feel on the first listen of classical music, you more get the spirit and feel rather than exercise the left brain to grasp it intellectually. I liken it to a physicist that truly loves his field and the work he does; it's almost the opposite here, he grasps the concept intellectually of something like Einstein's theory of relativity, but then falls in love with it by seeing how elegant and beautiful the real world applications of this theory are; he learns to have feelings for it.
> 
> ...


I really like and agree with much of what you say here. Though I would propose that there are many astonishing Rock (and Jazz) albums that are just as amazing as most of the greatest Classical Works. Like you, I don't feel such is evident in The Beatles' albums. Or, a majority of other "best albums" promoted by mainstream publications.


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

Bettina said:


> You're definitely at an exciting place in your musical journey! I hope that you have a wonderful time delving into the pieces in your collection. In order to get to know each piece more deeply, you might find it helpful to keep a "listening journal" of sorts.
> 
> What I mean is, you could jot down your impressions of each piece, and maybe make note of certain sections that particularly stood out for you (such as, at 5:35 in the first movement of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony, there's a lovely little solo passage for oboe...) I sometimes encourage my students to try doing this...some of my students enjoy putting their musical experiences into words, but others find that it interferes with their listening experience. If you give it a try, let me know if you like it.


Love that oboe solo. The lonely, yearning call, the calm in the middle of the storm. ... Also, the notes idea is an excellent teaching tool that expands one's ability to assimilate the piece, add their own perspective, and make it their own. I tend to take mental notes these days, unless I am wanting to write a more detailed analysis/summary of a work for others to read/discuss, in which case I'll write them down.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

When I really know a piece I've listened to it at least dozens of times, usually to the same recording. Then when I listen to another recording I will recognize every tiny detail being different. This is a curse sometimes. Only later I am able to appreciate other recordings and I start to appreciate their specific qualities. All my favorite music has gone through this process.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

The journey continues. Late in life I am finally taking classes in music theory, and that adds a new dimension to "knowing" a piece. Following Bach's chord progressions in some of his chorales and the contrapuntal elements of his Inventions gives me an additional appreciation of his genius. It also helps me to hear other music more intelligently (without reducing my emotional response).

Oh - and in the class we cover Beatles tunes as well.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

AfterHours said:


> Love that oboe solo. The lonely, yearning call, the calm in the middle of the storm. ... Also, the notes idea is an excellent teaching tool that expands one's ability to assimilate the piece, add their own perspective, and make it their own. I tend to take mental notes these days, unless I am wanting to write a more detailed analysis/summary of a work for others to read/discuss, in which case I'll write them down.


And if that oboe solo is taken too fast, I will never listen to that performance ever again.

Günter, wielding his magic Wand, gets it right.


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

Captainnumber36 said:


> With rock, like The Beatles, the music is just easier to grasp and it doesn't offer as much to absorb, and I don't feel there is as much to reveal in it.


Something like Schubert's "Gefror'ne Tränen" or Verdi's "Oh! de' verd'anni miei" seems easier to grasp than George Chadwick's third symphony, but Chadwick has less to reveal.



Captainnumber36 said:


> When it comes to progressive rock bands that are influenced by classical music, I feel they lack attention to dynamic details. This is why I prefer Jazz Fusion such as Jeff Beck, that music has the potential, and has reached it, for great dynamic nuance (but perhaps arguably less consistently as classical).


I think we could lose all of both jazz fusion and progressive rock in the coming apocalypse and not miss them too much, but I'm not convinced there's an example of fusion musicians paying _more_ attention to dynamic nuance than Peter Gabriel and Steve Hackett here:


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Bettina said:


> You're definitely at an exciting place in your musical journey! I hope that you have a wonderful time delving into the pieces in your collection. In order to get to know each piece more deeply, you might find it helpful to keep a "listening journal" of sorts.
> 
> What I mean is, you could jot down your impressions of each piece, and maybe make note of certain sections that particularly stood out for you *(such as, at 5:35 in the first movement of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony, there's a lovely little solo passage for oboe...)* I sometimes encourage my students to try doing this...some of my students enjoy putting their musical experiences into words, but others find that it interferes with their listening experience. If you give it a try, let me know if you like it.


That always brings to mind this:






The oboe comes in a bit after the 4:30 mark.


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

Bettina said:


> You're definitely at an exciting place in your musical journey! I hope that you have a wonderful time delving into the pieces in your collection. In order to get to know each piece more deeply, you might find it helpful to keep a "listening journal" of sorts.
> 
> What I mean is, you could jot down your impressions of each piece, and maybe make note of certain sections that particularly stood out for you (such as, at 5:35 in the first movement of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony, there's a lovely little solo passage for oboe...) I sometimes encourage my students to try doing this...some of my students enjoy putting their musical experiences into words, but others find that it interferes with their listening experience. If you give it a try, let me know if you like it.


That's more or less how I approached Beethovens' piano sonata's. I wanted to "know" and recognize at least every first movement. So for every movement I wrote down in a few words what it sounded like, just by writing some reference words like "sounds like raindrops falling", "sounds a bit like Bach but more mixed up", "sounds like a march", "like some other piece that I know", "sounds like Schubert"......just anything that comes into mind.

The result was at a certain point you have a different "image" or feeling for every piano sonata and it gets easier to differentiate them. Now I can say I can recognize ±90% of the sonatas (if played completely) and hum a great deal of the first movements of ±90% of them.

It may seem a bit odd to do a thing like that but the reward is worthwhile. I have the feeling I carry these sonatas inside of me now (the same for his string quartets)


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## Totenfeier (Mar 11, 2016)

I specialize in Gustav Mahler; I've been listening to his symphonies and other music with rapt attention for over forty years. I've heard dozens of interpretations. So I'd like to think that, if you "dropped the needle" on any segment of any symphony, I'd be able within a few seconds to tell you that that was from the W symphony, X movement (and more or less where in the movement it is), and that it sounds like the style of Y conductor, _possibly_ conducting the Z orchestra?

Sometimes I'll also settle in for a session of listening to a symphony, but I will focus on one particular instrument or section, and follow them throughout the work to hear what they're doing particularly and how that fits in with the rest of the orchestration. What has ultimately happened is that I have constructed a Platonic ideal of the symphony in my head, as in "this is the way that I would conduct it if I could; this is _my_ interpretation." In that way, I can enjoy the interpretations of others by comparing them to my own, and seeing where they measure up to, fail, or surpass my expectations ("oh, that's much too fast...just the right rubato there...seamless match between flute and oboe there...that should have been louder...more horn, less string"...and so on). This makes finding a new interpretation especially exciting - will we be simpatico? Will this one be well-nigh perfect?


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Totenfeier said:


> I specialize in Gustav Mahler; I've been listening to his symphonies and other music with rapt attention for over forty years. I've heard dozens of interpretations. So I'd like to think that, if you "dropped the needle" on any segment of any symphony, I'd be able within a few seconds to tell you that that was from the W symphony, X movement (and more or less where in the movement it is), and that it sounds like the style of Y conductor, _possibly_ conducting the Z orchestra?
> 
> Sometimes I'll also settle in for a session of listening to a symphony, but I will focus on one particular instrument or section, and follow them throughout the work to hear what they're doing particularly and how that fits in with the rest of the orchestration. What has ultimately happened is that I have constructed a Platonic ideal of the symphony in my head, as in "this is the way that I would conduct it if I could; this is _my_ interpretation." In that way, I can enjoy the interpretations of others by comparing them to my own, and seeing where they measure up to, fail, or surpass my expectations ("oh, that's much too fast...just the right rubato there...seamless match between flute and oboe there...that should have been louder...more horn, less string"...and so on). This makes finding a new interpretation especially exciting - will we be simpatico? Will this one be well-nigh perfect?


Well said! I do understand the excitement of knowing a piece so well and getting a new version of it to stimulate your ears.


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## Jacred (Jan 14, 2017)

shangoyal said:


> Beethoven's 9th symphony was the first piece of classical I ever listened to. In the beginning I only heard the scherzo mostly because it was bouncy and fun. But soon the 3rd movement caught my fancy and I listened to it a lot. I love that slow movement like I will never love almost any other piece ever.


Wow, did I write this post and forget about it...? jk

Seriously, though, this sounds like me


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

hpowders said:


> And if that oboe solo is taken too fast, I will never listen to that performance ever again.
> 
> Günter, wielding his magic Wand, gets it right.


The best 5th in my books.


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> The best 5th in my books.


Hard to argue with that claim, it's right up there for me too, possibly at the very top.


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

Jacred said:


> Wow, did I write this post and forget about it...? jk
> 
> Seriously, though, this sounds like me


Wow, great to know that.


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## Guest (Apr 21, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> the music is harder to get to know fully and conceptualize, and once you do, it becomes something more, at least to me.


I find that as I move from not knowing to knowing a piece, it actually changes shape. From being a long, winding, occasionally eventful piece - like some kind of elongated amoeba - it resolves into something fairly well defined such as a chaise-longue or a brontosaurus (metaphorically speaking of course).


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

MacLeod said:


> I find that as I move from not knowing to knowing a piece, it actually changes shape. From being a long, winding, occasionally eventful piece - like some kind of elongated amoeba - it resolves into something fairly well defined such as a chaise-longue or a brontosaurus (metaphorically speaking of course).


In other words, it acquires an identity.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Bettina said:


> ... in the first movement of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony, there's a lovely little solo passage for oboe...


Elsewhere on this Board I once posted the following: "I marvel that the small oboe lachrymae of Beethoven's Fifth's first movement becomes the great secondary theme of Tchaikovsky's first movement." Beethoven's tears, I like to think that oboe solo is. Perhaps more accurately a "tear drop" or lachryma in Latin. The English composer, John Dowland, whose music Beethoven studied, composed a famous set of seven pavans, a musical portrait of the seven tears of Christ, the Lachrimae. The motif of each of the "tears" is that the notes descend in a short scale, seem to swell, and then drop off -- like a tear flowing out of the eye, forming on the cheek, and then falling from the face.

Beethoven wrote a song cycle, some yeas after the Fifth Symphony, titled _An die ferne Geliebte_ which features, in its third song, a passage about a teardrop, which in some ways mimics that oboe passage from the Fifth.

I have long been more interested in speculating that Tchaikovsky, in his final symphony, chose to rewrite Beethoven's Fifth, but now with an ending of hopelessness and despair rather than that of Beethovenian triumph. It seems to me when I compare the Beethoven oboe theme and the second or great lyric theme of the first movement of Tchaikovsky's 6th that a great similarity exists. Beethoven drops a single tear, but the Russian romantic weeps uncontrollably.

I see Beethoven's Fifth as the composer's psychological analysis of his impending deafness, with anger and fear and a "first you cry" attitude in the first movement, moving to denial, confrontation, and eventual acceptance and triumph (in that final movement). Tchaikovsky, on the other hand, may be analyzing his own troubles, possibly his homosexuality in context of his society, using Beethoven's format but ending in despair rather than triumph. Note the opening of the great Sixth: Tchaikovsky gives us four notes, but not fate knocking on the door as in Beethoven, but rather destiny slinking in under the slit at the bottom of the door. I find other similarities of form, too, but that lachryma passage from Beethoven's strange oboe solo in the Fifth seems to seal the deal in my consideration that Tchaikovsky rewrote Beethoven to his own purpose.

By the way, in my own teaching (which was largely literature based) I often played music for students and had them write or discuss reactions to what they heard. I used a variety of sounds, from medieval through Bach and Mozart, the romantics, into the contemporary avant-garde. My topic was always art and its role in our humanity, no matter what play or poem or novel or symphony I discussed.


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## laurie (Jan 12, 2017)

MacLeod said:


> I find that as I move from not knowing to knowing a piece, it actually changes shape. From being a long, winding, occasionally eventful piece - like some kind of elongated amoeba - it resolves into something fairly well defined such as *a chaise-longue or a brontosaurus* (metaphorically speaking of course).


 Now I have this mental picture of said Brontosauraus, reclining _on_ a chaise-longue .... wearing headphones, of course! :lol: 
But I get exactly what you mean here, that's how I experience it too. (well, maybe without the dinosaurs  )


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Bettina said:


> You're definitely at an exciting place in your musical journey! I hope that you have a wonderful time delving into the pieces in your collection. In order to get to know each piece more deeply, you might find it helpful to keep a "listening journal" of sorts.
> 
> What I mean is, you could jot down your impressions of each piece, and maybe make note of certain sections that particularly stood out for you (such as, at 5:35 in the first movement of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony, there's a lovely little solo passage for oboe...) I sometimes encourage my students to try doing this...some of my students enjoy putting their musical experiences into words, but others find that it interferes with their listening experience. If you give it a try, let me know if you like it.


Some mental notes I made on Mahler's 5th:

1st Movement: Opening reminds me of Beethoven's 5th, there is a section that sounds like fierce winds bowing in a storm from the violins.

2nd Movement: Has a waltz-esc sounding section.

3rd Movement: Has a very strong ending.

4th Movement: Very pretty movement, slow and touching.

5th Movement: Sounds like fair music; very lively.

I'll have to write these down somewhere. I kind of like making mental notes as I go through each movement, and then write them down after I've heard the entire piece. I know I may not be able to be as specific with times, but I feel writing while listening takes away from listening.


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## QuietGuy (Mar 1, 2014)

I feel I know a piece well when I've listened several dozen times, never tire of it and still want to listen again. I want the score in my library. Afternoon of a Faun, Daphnis et Chloe, Appalachian Spring (suite for full orchestra) are old friends!


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

SONNET CLV said:


> Elsewhere on this Board I once posted the following: "I marvel that the small oboe lachrymae of Beethoven's Fifth's first movement becomes the great secondary theme of Tchaikovsky's first movement." Beethoven's tears, I like to think that oboe solo is. Perhaps more accurately a "tear drop" or lachryma in Latin. The English composer, John Dowland, whose music Beethoven studied, composed a famous set of seven pavans, a musical portrait of the seven tears of Christ, the Lachrimae. The motif of each of the "tears" is that the notes descend in a short scale, seem to swell, and then drop off -- like a tear flowing out of the eye, forming on the cheek, and then falling from the face.
> 
> Beethoven wrote a song cycle, some yeas after the Fifth Symphony, titled _An die ferne Geliebte_ which features, in its third song, a passage about a teardrop, which in some ways mimics that oboe passage from the Fifth.
> 
> ...


Very insightful, thank you


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