# Unusual Time Signatures in Western Art Music



## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

Before starting this thread, I read an earlier one from a couple years ago that didn't seem to make it very far and didn't want to resurrect the dead thread in case there was some unspoken rule about doing that. Nonetheless I think it's an interesting topic, especially in regards to Western Art Music. Of course, in 20th Century and even more so contemporary music, one can find abundant use of odd times (Stravinsky, Ligeti, Stockahusen and further into the future) but naturally the further back one goes the rarer they become. The famous examples are the 'waltz' from Tchaikovsky's 6th and Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition (both in 5/4), but I'm sure there's lots of others that aren't as well-known from before the 20th century. I recently listened to Villa Lobos' Bachianas Brasilieras No.9 which has an 11/8 fugue. 

What are your favorite pieces or passages in unconventional times? In addition, if you're a professional musician, what have been your favorite to play and did they pose any special challenge to you or the ensemble?


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

The Gigue from Bach's 6th keyboard partita.


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

Bach's Prelude no. 15 from ‘The Well-Tempered Clavier’ has two time signatures: 24/16 for the right hand, and 4/4 for the left hand.

Telemann's 'Lilliputsche Chaconne' is written in the time signature of 3/32.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

12/32 in the arietta of Beethoven Op.111



Mandryka said:


> The Gigue from Bach's 6th keyboard partita.


4/2 in Schubert's impromptu in G flat also seems unusual because it is commonly associated with old-style a cappella singing, not instrumental music.

*[ 14:18 ]*


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## MrMeatScience (Feb 15, 2015)

One of Elgar's _Enigma Variations_ and the second movement of Borodin's _Symphony No. 2_ are both in 1/1, which is pretty rare.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

MrMeatScience said:


> One of Elgar's _Enigma Variations_ and the second movement of Borodin's _Symphony No. 2_ are both in 1/1, which is pretty rare.


I was going to mention Borodin 2/II in 1/1 time...very deceptive at first glance....whole notes, halves, quarters....but they're zipping by pretty quickly.
Randall Thompson Sym #2/II is in 7/8, or 7/4 pretty quick, pretty much the whole way thru....a little tricky.
Of course, L'Histoire du Soldat, and the Sacrificial Dance from Le Sacre are famous examples of assymetric meters.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Rachmaninov's Isle of the Dead is one of the most effective uses of 5/4 I've ever heard-meant to reproduce the rocking of the boat as it crosses to the isle of the dead.


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Bars of 2/6 at 1:18


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

One of the strangest examples of complex time signatures is the _Scherzo: alla bulgarese _from Bartok's 1934 String Quartet No. 5. Wiki describes it as using "time signatures typical of Bulgarian folk music: nine quavers in each bar in uneven groups of 4+2+3 for the main scherzo, and ten quavers in groups of 3+2+2+3 in the trio."

Hard to imagine, but it totally works!


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

KenOC said:


> One of the strangest examples of complex time signatures is the _Scherzo: alla bulgarese _from Bartok's 1934 String Quartet No. 5. Wiki describes it as using "time signatures typical of Bulgarian folk music: nine quavers in each bar in uneven groups of 4+2+3 for the main scherzo, and ten quavers in groups of 3+2+2+3 in the trio."
> 
> Hard to imagine, but it totally works!


Those mixed meters are standard in Eastern European foll music...all passed down aurally, of course, until Bartok, Kodaly went out, studied it, put it in written form...
A friend of mine plays bass, called on short notice to play a Greek wedding...he said it was wickedly hard til he got in the swing of it. Everything was in 7/8 or 5/8 time!!.


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

The big tune starting the finale of Saint-Saens 3 is in 9/4, and the piece finishes in 3/1.
Unusual.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Another good example - 
Barber - Piano Concerto mvt III - in 5/8, fast!!


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Wikipedia has a great and pretty comprehensive article on examples of music in odd meters / time signatures (note separate pages for quintuple and septuple meter):

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musical_works_in_unusual_time_signatures

One thing to note is that, especially in 19th c. it is common to notate unusual meters as alternations of more usual time signatures, so "unusual time signature" and "unusual meter" have slightly different meanings. Conversely, odd looking time signatures may signify relatively normal meter. For example, the 1/1 time in the scherzo of Borodin's second really just seems to represent a simple duple meter.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Pop quiz: What is the earliest work written from beginning to end in quintuple time? No, not that Chopin sonata movement, even earlier than that...


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

KenOC said:


> Pop quiz: What is the earliest work written from beginning to end in quintuple time? No, not that Chopin sonata movement, even earlier than that...


You talking the Cretic meter for the first Delphic hymn by Athenaeus, son of Athenaeus, perchance?

Short of that, we're presumably talking Tan buen ganadico, by Juan del Encina?


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## Aurelian (Sep 9, 2011)

Part of Beethoven's 14th String Quartet is in 9/4. I assume people at the time found it bizarre.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Wikipedia has a great and pretty comprehensive article on examples of music in odd meters / time signatures (note separate pages for quintuple and septuple meter):
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musical_works_in_unusual_time_signatures
> 
> One thing to note is that, especially in 19th c. it is common to notate unusual meters as alternations of more usual time signatures, so "unusual time signature" and "unusual meter" have slightly different meanings. Conversely, odd looking time signatures may signify relatively normal meter. For example, the 1/1 time in the scherzo of Borodin's second really just seems to represent a simple duple meter.


This is very true, any meter than can be divided evenly isn't really an odd time signature. Those time signature are more about the notation and phrasing to the composer wants. I've heard about the Borodin 1/1 before which I always thought of as just an unconventional way of writing a really fast cut time as well. For example, 3/32 could sound exactly like 3/8 or even 3/4 depending on how you take the tempo, and something like 24/16 is really an aggregation of other duple meters to capture a certain phrasing.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> You talking the Cretic meter for the first Delphic hymn by Athenaeus, son of Athenaeus, perchance?
> 
> Short of that, we're presumably talking Tan buen ganadico, by Juan del Encina?


Tan buen grandico is notated in triple time, at least at its inception. I have no idea of the other but believe my doubt is justified.


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