# "Modern Opera Is Rubbish"



## Xavier (Jun 7, 2012)

_"Modern opera studiously avoids anything so old-fashioned as melody or emotion, which seems to me a contradiction of what music is all about." _

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/...l-Attenborough-is-no-fan-of-modern-opera.html

Well, another crusty, close-minded blowhard citing the tired, old canard that modern music has "no melody."


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Xavier said:


> _"Modern opera studiously avoids anything so old-fashioned as melody or emotion, which seems to me a contradiction of what music is all about." _
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/...l-Attenborough-is-no-fan-of-modern-opera.html
> 
> Well, another crusty, close-minded blowhard citing the tired, old canard that modern music has "no melody."


Yes. obviously from a position of intimate knowledge.

There was so little to say about Attenborough that the reporter had to pad the article out with fulsome praise of a completely unrelated but much better director.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

Nonsense. Utter nonsense coming from a very silly man.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

Has this dude ever listened Britten? If that's not melodic, I don't know what is.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

During Wagner's lifetime, one of the most persistant criticisms of his music was that "it had no melody".
This is like saying that chocolate cake has no calories ! In fact, Wagner's music is chock full of great melodies .
It's true that operas like Wozzeck,Lulu, Moses &Aron etc are not the kind of operas where people walk out of the theater humming the melodies, but so what ? And these operas "lack emotion"? Wozzeck's torment and madness "shows no emotion"? Moses' despair whne he cries out "Oh word, thou word,that I lack !" does not show emotion? 
"Doctor Atomic" by John Adams portays the anguish and fear of Oppenheimer as he realizes what he has created in a truly compelling manner .


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Well in Australia, there are and have been some composers working in a more melodic, 'modern tonal' style.

Of the past, the late Richard Meale is an example. In his operas 'Voss' and 'Mere de Glace' he consciously returned to more melody and direct emotion. But for whatever reason, even like 20-25 years after they were produced, they are not known by many people here anymore. They are not played on radio for example (a musician involved in recording these told me that he has tried to get the radio stations to play them ever since but has had no such luck).

Of the present, Richard Mills has produced a number of more melodic but modern operas in recent years. 'The Love of the Nightingale' was done a few years back. He is a trenchant critic of the extreme 'fringe' avant-garde, he would probably agree on at least some points made in that article. In an interview on youtube, he says his aim with his operas is to give audiences a special experience, not just for example show people 'doing the washing.' Here is that interview: 




My point is that I do like 'atonal' opera, I actually connect with that more readily than say wig opera. I also like Romantic opera (excluding Wagner, or most of his stuff at least). I like neo-romantic operas like those of Meale, they are great. The issue however has little to do with the music but with various ideological 'turf wars' between composers and others in the classical music industry. I am all for discussing this openly and with respect with the other side. Indeed, I see myself as a listener being on no side, only that of common sense. But people with ideologies to uphold won't admit that, or mostly don't.

So we get these types of polarising debates and frankly I'm sick of them, I've had a gutful of them. The 'rot' started post-1945 with Boulez and his ilk espousing 'total serialism' and other such rigidities. But composers like Messiaen, Xenakis, Carter did not get involved in these turf wars, they just kept composing rather than talking ****. So too Britten, I think part of the reason why he established the festival in his hometown, in Aldeburgh, is to get away from the cliques and turf wars in London. It makes sense, but I think now here at least we're moving towards some sort of pluralism and respect for diversity. People have had enough of this in-fighting, its counter productive and its got to stop. & in many cases it has sweet fa to do with the music, honestly. Its pseudo intellectual jargon and gobbledigook.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

I am sorry but the only real music is from the ROMANTIC ERA after that the good music declined.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

mtmailey said:


> I am sorry but the only real music is from the ROMANTIC ERA after that the good music declined.


Well nothing like making your entry with a sweeping statement!:lol:


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

Great breakthrough opera had after Classicism. In the 19th and 20th century great revolutions took place in opera.

Although as much as i love opera from the Romantic period and forward, each time i hear a Mozart opera i always question myself "Why didn't we stop here and let music stay forever like this?".

But as life, evolution in opera exists. Whether it is a good one or not, only time will tell. However i agree there's lack of catchy melodies. What makes me sad, above all, is the loss of bel-canto. The italian opera had its true greatness in singing, but nowadays it is unthinkable writting in bel-canto style. Maybe Wagner is accepted. Verdi (and all behind him) not.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

dionisio said:


> But as life, evolution in opera exists. Whether it is a good one or not, only time will tell. However i agree there's lack of catchy melodies. What makes me sad, above all, is the loss of bel-canto. The italian opera had its true greatness in singing, but nowadays it is unthinkable *writting in bel-canto style*. Maybe Wagner is accepted. Verdi (and all behind him) not.


Korngold, Strauss, even Britten. The list goes on.

And you know, Wagner is rather old-fashioned these days. He was born 199 years ago, after all.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

dionisio said:


> ...
> Although as much as i love opera from the Romantic period and forward, each time i hear a Mozart opera i always question myself "Why didn't we stop here and let music stay forever like this?".
> ....


Well there's nothing stopping anyone from writing a Mozart opera. Seriously. Victor Borge did it, 'A Mozart opera by Borge' is on one of his live performances, I have it on vinyl, very funny, he gets all those cliches down pat (and before I am attacked by some Mozartian (or Mozartean, for the pendantic spellers?) I realise all operas have cliches, not just wig opera...*covers his ar*e and getting very cynical now...very)...


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Sid James said:


> Well there's nothing stopping anyone from writing a Mozart opera. Seriously. Victor Borge did it, 'A Mozart opera by Borge' is on one of his live performances, I have it on vinyl, very funny, he gets all those cliches down pat (and before I am attacked by some Mozartian (or Mozartean, for the pendantic spellers?) I realise all operas have cliches, not just wig opera...*covers his ar*e and getting very cynical now...very)...


If that is true and a good composer now can write a "mozart" opera up to standard of the daponte trio - let them go ahead - seriously - I will be the first in the queue for tickets at covent garden to hear a new Mozart opera. Mind - I will be sitting behind the composer with a bucket of rotten tomatoes hoping to leave with bucket full.


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

The article says "Grandage’s production of Le nozze di Figaro at Glyndebourne in June — his second production at the venue after Billy Budd in 2010 — won rave reviews from the opera critics of every publication from The Daily Telegraph to The Lady", 

which reminds me of Dorothy Parker's observation that "Katharine Hepburn delivered a striking performance that ran the gamut of emotions, from A to B."


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

stomanek said:


> If that is true and a good composer now can write a "mozart" opera up to standard of the daponte trio - let them go ahead - seriously - I will be the first in the queue for tickets at covent garden to hear a new Mozart opera. ...


Well the issue is composers today don't have to go back and do that as its already been done. Seriously, the issue here as always is ideology and dogma. If this director wants to do nothing but direct wig operas, then fine. But there's no use him or anyone else poo-pooing operas younger than 1791. I mean seriously. Are we back there? Do we travel around in horses and carts? That's what I mean.

People can do whatever they want. But I'm sick of this ideological rubbish, which seems to be practised by some in the classical music industry (and listenership?) of needing to elevate one thing and correspondingly degrade another. Just ******* do what you do, simple as that. Is that hard?


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Xavier said:


> _"Modern opera studiously avoids anything so old-fashioned as melody or emotion, which seems to me a contradiction of what music is all about." _
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/...l-Attenborough-is-no-fan-of-modern-opera.html
> 
> Well, another crusty, close-minded blowhard citing the tired, old canard that modern music has "no melody."


Who the hell is this guy? I prefer the opinion of his uncle, Sir David.


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

Not to have Melody or Emotion is a good accusation, but it doesn't apply to all modern Operas I think. So his statement is false.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

All composers are not equal to me some of their music sounds better than others-also the music that does not use the african elements in it are not great but garbage.NOW MUSIC IN THE ROMANTIC ERA SOUNDS GREAT.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

mtmailey said:


> All composers are not equal to me some of their music sounds better than others-also the music that does not use the african elements in it are not great but garbage.NOW MUSIC IN THE ROMANTIC ERA SOUNDS GREAT.


Explain and expand please, with specific examples. Points will be deducted for hyperbole and unsubstantiated statements.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

After Wagner, opera was pretty much done for. Strauss gave a good effort. Debussy and Schoenberg to some extent. But the writing was pretty much on the wall.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Couchie said:


> After Wagner, opera was pretty much done for. Strauss gave a good effort. Debussy and Schoenberg to some extent. But the writing was pretty much on the wall.


Well after 1945 broadway musicals came into the picture, and musicals generally, and I think that's now the 'real' living medium. Opera is more a museum piece, although it has some place in the 'classical music universe' as I call it. But this is another issue, or almost.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

COMPOSERS ARE NOT EQUAL AT ALL THEY HAVE DIFFERENT STYLES OF COURSE.Well some do use the same african elements such as polyrhythm,variations on a theme,polyphony,monophony & homophony.REMEMBER THEY STOLE AFRICAN MUSIC TO PUT IN THE CLASSICAL MUSIC.Now MOZART used polyrhythm in his symphony #40.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

mtmailey said:


> COMPOSERS ARE NOT EQUAL AT ALL THEY HAVE DIFFERENT STYLES OF COURSE.Well some do use the same african elements such as polyrhythm,variations on a theme,polyphony,monophony & homophony.*REMEMBER THEY STOLE AFRICAN MUSIC TO PUT IN THE CLASSICAL MUSIC.*Now MOZART used polyrhythm in his symphony #40.


How can I remember something which is a new and extremely unlikely concept to me? What on earth is your evidence? And why are you YELLING?


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

If you are looking for proof then just study music like i have-i do not have to prove anything since i am not in court.Also in history they had african slaves therefore they stole the africans culture from them such as music.Also i am not yelling since i am typing words here.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

mtmailey said:


> If you are looking for proof then just study music like i have-i do not have to prove anything since i am not in court.Also in history they had african slaves therefore they stole the africans culture from them such as music.Also i am not yelling since i am typing words here.


You are making claims here without providing anything to back them up. Natalie simply asked you to just that. Just saying that Europeans had African slaves, and therefore Western classical music is basically African is something I find rather hard to believe.
And here on the Internet machine, TYPING IN ALL CAPS IS GENERALLY CONSIDERED SHOUTING.


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## AlanPalgut (Apr 11, 2012)

Let's just say that opera went downhill after _Turandot_.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

AlanPalgut said:


> Let's just say that opera went downhill after _Turandot_.


Do rememer though, THEY STOLE CHINESE MUSIC TO PUT IN THE TURANDOT.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

mtmailey said:


> ....REMEMBER THEY STOLE AFRICAN MUSIC TO PUT IN THE CLASSICAL MUSIC.....


Well, the American minimalists - Reich, Glass, etc. - have put on record they were more influenced by things going on in jazz in the 1960's (esp. bebop) than what was going on across the Atlantic in European avant-garde (eg. they were not influenced by Webern, but they did know his music).

So you are right in that what can loosely be called 'African music' has informed classical music, esp. since 1945. I don't know of Mozart using polyrhythms but I know LIgeti did in his etudes for solo piano. African - esp. West AFrican - drumming influenced the likes of Reich, Harry Partch, Xenakis, Australian composer Nigel WEstlake and so on.

This is a diversion just to say there is some validity in mtmailey's comment, but it has little application in this thread (unless maybe talking of minimalist operas?)...


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

I don't doubt the influence of African music in 20th century music overall, not just classical, but not Mozart or any of those geezers.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

AlanPalgut said:


> Let's just say that opera went downhill after _Turandot_.


Uphill, you mean - of course, it's harder to follow uphill.


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## Bardamu (Dec 12, 2011)

Couchie said:


> Do rememer though, THEY STOLE CHINESE MUSIC TO PUT IN THE TURANDOT.


Those cheating italians!


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

You do not have to believe me if you want to-I TOOK A COURSE ON MUSIC THEREFORE I KNOW WHAT I AM SAYING.Also i write music.As stated before one can search for proof it is better to see for yourself sometimes like i did.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

Do not get it wrong i like operas very little i like carmen but not much else.Also i like music that has no singing in it.Very few vocal music i like anyway.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Aksel said:


> I don't doubt the influence of African music in 20th century music overall, not just classical, but not Mozart or any of those geezers.


Yeah and another I forgot was 'Porgy and Bess,' and also musicals like 'Showboat' (which had the song 'Ol man River')...


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

mtmailey said:


> You do not have to believe me if you want to-I TOOK A COURSE ON MUSIC THEREFORE I KNOW WHAT I AM SAYING.Also i write music.As stated before one can search for proof it is better to see for yourself sometimes like i did.


I AM A MUSICIAN AND SOON TO BE MUSIC HISTORIAN. I ALSO KNOW MUSIC. AND PLEASE STOP SHOUTING. 
And could you please provide us with some evidence of what you are speaking of? Because now it sounds like you're just throwing things out there without having anything to back it up. Could you at least give us a few pointers in the right direction?


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

mtmailey said:


> Very few vocal music i like anyway.


Me too, but the ones I do like OH BOY OH BOY OH BOY


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

One day I walked outside and it was-NICE I DON'T HAVE TO PROVE IT WAS NICE and then I saw A WHITE EUROPEAN in an African hat area of town AND SURMISED THAT EURPOE HAD STOLE AFRICAS HATS. I have proof of this theft but I think you should look for it on google.

On topic: Mtmailey is obviously a troll.

Also on topic: Anyone who thinks modern opera has no emotional value should seek out Messiaen's St. François d'Assise.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

Couchie said:


> Me too, but the ones I do like OH BOY OH BOY OH BOY


All thirteen of them?


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Aksel said:


> All thirteen of them?


Well don't forget there is the one that soars above all the others on clouds of glory and makes green monsters writhe in ecstasy.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

Aksel said:


> I AM A MUSICIAN AND SOON TO BE MUSIC HISTORIAN. I ALSO KNOW MUSIC. AND PLEASE STOP SHOUTING.
> And could you please provide us with some evidence of what you are speaking of? Because now it sounds like you're just throwing things out there without having anything to back it up. Could you at least give us a few pointers in the right direction?


Well one can go to the wikipedia online to look up things such as counterpoint,polyrhythm,monophony,homophony.polyphony, .But this book i still have is a great book to read the title is UNDERSTANDING MUSIC second edition by Jeremy Yudkin .THE ISBN # is 0-13-081125-4.This is where i learned about african music.As stated before they stole or used african elements in music.Beethoven used polyrhythm in the symphony 7 allegro con brio!!!


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

Not bad but not every one does not want to here a boring opera i know i do not-not only that i have no idea what they are saying anyway.The carmen opera had great music i have the suites on cd and saw the opera on DVD before i was not lost because they had english subtitles.Also some people do not like music that means nothing or lack meaning.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

mtmailey said:


> Well one can go to the wikipedia online to look up things such as counterpoint,polyrhythm,monophony,homophony.polyphony, .But this book i still have is a great book to read the title is UNDERSTANDING MUSIC second edition by Jeremy Yudkin .THE ISBN # is 0-13-081125-4.This is where i learned about african music.As stated before they stole or used african elements in music.Beethoven used polyrhythm in the symphony 7 allegro con brio!!!


I have not read that book, sounds interesting, but don't forget Beethoven did many things but we don't know how he did them.

Eg. in the late quartets, he did things similar to Palestrina, but we don't know if Beethoven' knew Palestrina's music. Beethoven in the Op. 130 quartet, he did a movement with rhythms/melody of Neopolitan (or some Italian type?) folk music, but we don't know if it's just coincidence or if he really knew/was influenced by Italian music of that type.

If you want to make a separate thread about the influence of African music on European (or American?) classical musics, why not make a thread on that on this forum? & if you could give some good quotes from that book, or a link to extracts online (eg. googlebooks, if its there) even better.

But this thread is not the place for this issue, I think.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

Sid James said:


> I have not read that book, sounds interesting, but don't forget Beethoven did many things but we don't know how he did them.
> 
> Eg. in the late quartets, he did things similar to Palestrina, but we don't know if Beethoven' knew Palestrina's music. Beethoven in the Op. 130 quartet, he did a movement with rhythms/melody of Neopolitan (or some Italian type?) folk music, but we don't know if it's just coincidence or if he really knew/was influenced by Italian music of that type.
> 
> ...


WELL THAT IS YOUR OPINION REMEMBER BEETHOVEN like other composers used other music forms in their music.Since i can read music i can tell how or what he was using.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

NOW I AM NOT TROLLING HERE certain people can not stand the truth therefore they say TROLLING trying to make people think one is starting trouble online but that person my or may not be starting problems.ALSO PEOPLE LIKE ME YOU CAN NOT SILENCE.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

No, but a moderator probably could.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Crudblud said:


> No, but a moderator probably could.


mtmailey is entitled to his/her opinions. Whether they are substantiated (or will ever be, I don't hold out much hope) is a different matter.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

mtmailey said:


> WELL THAT IS YOUR OPINION REMEMBER BEETHOVEN like other composers used other music forms in their music.Since i can read music i can tell how or what he was using.


How rude. I was being nice.

Incidentally, now I have a record number of people put on my ignore list this past week or so. At least half a dozen. The forum doesn't seem as friendly a place as it used to be. People should maybe chill out and just respect diversity of opinion. But I make the decision who I talk to and don't. And it boils down to attitude, not things like whether a person can read music or not.

Anyway forget it.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

Sid James said:


> How rude. I was being nice.
> 
> Incidentally, now I have a record number of people put on my ignore list this past week or so. At least half a dozen. The forum doesn't seem as friendly a place as it used to be. People should maybe chill out and just respect diversity of opinion. But I make the decision who I talk to and don't. And it boils down to attitude, not things like whether a person can read music or not.
> 
> Anyway forget it.


you can ignore me if you want to it will not bother me nor will i cry either,i really see no problems i am not disrespecting anyone nor insulting anyone.EVERYONE HERE IS ENTITLED TO THEIR OPINION.I mean no harm at all.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

Crudblud said:


> One day I walked outside and it was-NICE I DON'T HAVE TO PROVE IT WAS NICE and then I saw A WHITE EUROPEAN in an African hat area of town AND SURMISED THAT EURPOE HAD STOLE AFRICAS HATS. I have proof of this theft but I think you should look for it on google.
> 
> On topic: Mtmailey is obviously a troll.
> 
> Also on topic: Anyone who thinks modern opera has no emotional value should seek out Messiaen's St. François d'Assise.


If you think i am a troll guess what?THAT IS YOUR OPINION UNTIL YOU CAN PROVE IT AS A FACT.Have a nice day.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

Crudblud said:


> No, but a moderator probably could.


That is true but i see no reason to do so,i am not disrespecting people here, not using foul language nor insulting people.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

^Do I really need to say anything?

So guys, how about that modern opera?


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## crmoorhead (Apr 6, 2011)

mtmailey said:


> You do not have to believe me if you want to-I TOOK A COURSE ON MUSIC THEREFORE I KNOW WHAT I AM SAYING.Also i write music.As stated before one can search for proof it is better to see for yourself sometimes like i did.


I hope your music is better than your grammar, punctuation and capitalisation...  Also I know more than you because I read it on Wikipedia.

*do not feed the troll!*


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

Someone needs to write an opera set in a recycling plant, maybe with some item found amongst the garbage that indicates that someone working there is actually a prince, conned out of his inheritance by a local government official. Gotta have a garbage queen love interest, some comic mishaps with litter and the loss, but eventual rediscovery, of the significant item (perhaps make it a ring for traditions sake) There could be some deep melancholy arias on the nature of modern throwaway society, consumerism and how one person's crap is another person's gold. It could be great, it will antagonize all the right people and the thread title would pay off.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

quack said:


> Someone needs to write an opera set in a recycling plant, maybe with some item found amongst the garbage that indicates that someone working there is actually a prince, conned out of his inheritance by a local government official. Gotta have a garbage queen love interest, some comic mishaps with litter and the loss, but eventual rediscovery, of the significant item (perhaps make it a ring for traditions sake) There could be some deep melancholy arias on the nature of modern throwaway society, consumerism and how one person's crap is another person's gold. It could be great, it will antagonize all the right people and the thread title would pay off.


Or the Chereau Bayreuth Rheingold as it is also known,


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Couchie said:


> After Wagner, opera was pretty much done for. Strauss gave a good effort. Debussy and Schoenberg to some extent. But the writing was pretty much on the wall.


Strauss made a brilliant effort.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Sid James said:


> How rude. I was being nice.
> 
> Incidentally, now I have a record number of people put on my ignore list this past week or so. At least half a dozen. The forum doesn't seem as friendly a place as it used to be. People should maybe chill out and just respect diversity of opinion. But I make the decision who I talk to and don't. And it boils down to attitude, not things like whether a person can read music or not.
> 
> Anyway forget it.


Boy are things ever going to hell here! 
I don't know whether to laugh, cry or look the other way.
Just to think that when I joined I thought I would be having genteel conversations with knowledgeable folk.
Instead I am assailed on all sides by nutcases of various persuasions.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Couchie said:


> Do rememer though, THEY STOLE CHINESE MUSIC TO PUT IN THE TURANDOT.


Wasn't that Busoni's Turandot but it was actually Greensleeves in any case ? Or am I going round the bend ?


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

crmoorhead said:


> I hope your music is better than your grammar, punctuation and capitalisation...  Also I know more than you because I read it on Wikipedia.
> 
> *do not feed the troll!*


If you are looking to start trouble do not waste you time i have better things to do.Not only that you have just posted you opinion like other people.Not only that you can not prove anything about me trolling.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

I am closing this thread down as it seems imposible to have a respectful and relevant conversation here.


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