# Sibelius 6th & 7th - one extended symphony?



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I just came from watching a Digital Concert Hall simulcast of Rattle and the Berlin Phil doing the Sibelius 5th, 6th and 7th in one concert. As is Rattle's stated belief, he performed the 6th and 7th after intermission as though they were one continuous work with only the briefest pause between the last movement of the 6th and the start off the 7th. His argument being that they were composed at about the same time (1923-4) and have similar motifs. While I can follow the logic of the transition between the two, I find myself feeling that the 7th totally overwhelmed the 6th. I came away with the impression that I heard the 5th and 7th with something between, which is sad as I very much like the 6th.

Comments...?


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Sibelius's Sixth and Seventh Symphonies share his characteristic rigorous development of motifs and a particular emphasis on the key of C major, whether as the primary key of the Seventh or the secondary key of the Sixth (though the one which I feel is often much stronger than the modal D which is ostensibly its primary key).

The Sixth is a very peculiar work, and perhaps Rattle felt that by having it segue into the Seventh, he could circumvent some of its odd tonal logic by giving C major ultimate primacy.

He has done things like this elsewhere, as when he played Ligeti's Lontano together with Wagner's Lohengrin prelude, or Schonberg's Five Pieces for Orchestra with Webern's Six Pieces for Orchestra and Berg's Three Pieces for Orchestra (a very intense second half!). Similarly, Leinsdorf was fond of pairing Schoenberg's Survivor from Warsaw with Beethoven's Ninth Symphony.


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## shadowdancer (Mar 31, 2014)

Don`t intend to hijack the thread. Just an observation on the same subject...
I was also watching the Digital Concert Hall today. Bought a 7 day ticket to watch the Sibelius Cycle. I think they did a great job today with the 5th. Interesting to see how Rattle respects and admires Ormandy`s reading of Sibelius (especially the 6th).


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## Pip (Aug 16, 2013)

Having listened as you did on DCH, I liked the performance of 6&7 together. Rattle first did this in Berlin in 2010 when he gave this concert in this form. I found it was successful then and now.
If for no other reason this way gives us the chance to hear the much underplayed 6th live in concert.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Becca said:


> As is Rattle's stated belief, he performed the 6th and 7th after intermission as though they were one continuous work with only the briefest pause between the last movement of the 6th and the start off the 7th. His argument being that they were composed at about the same time (1923-4) and have similar motifs. While I can follow the logic of the transition between the two, I find myself feeling that the 7th totally overwhelmed the 6th. I came away with the impression that I heard the 5th and 7th with something between, which is sad as I very much like the 6th.
> 
> Comments...?


For me, similar motifs and being composed around the same time are compelling arguments _against_ putting them on the same program. More generally, while I like Sibelius's symphonies a great deal, I would prefer to hear one per concert rather than a helping of three. And if I had to leave one of the out of the program you attended, it would be the Sixth.


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## Pip (Aug 16, 2013)

EdwardBast said:


> And if I had to leave one of the out of the program you attended, it would be the Sixth.


Therein lies the problem with the sixth, it does not programme easily. I think if a survey was made of the audience at that concert asking which of the three symphonies could or should have been left out in favour of something else, I can imagine an overwhelming majority would choose the sixth.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

_Sibelius' 6th_ would probably do better in company of _The Oceanides_ and Lemminkäinen (specially _Lemminkäinen in Tuonela_).


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> _Sibelius' 6th_ would probably do better in company of _The Oceanides_ and Lemminkäinen (specially _Lemminkäinen in Tuonela_).


An interesting thought. In a separate thread about programming Tapiola, my idea would be to put the complete _Lemminkainen_ in the first half, then do _The Bard_ & _Tapiola_ after intermission. That is, of course, if you believe that an all-Sibelius concert is a desirable idea.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Becca said:


> An interesting thought. In a separate thread about programming Tapiola, my idea would be to put the complete _Lemminkainen_ in the first half, then do _The Bard_ & _Tapiola_ after intermission. That is, of course, if you believe that an all-Sibelius concert is a desirable idea.


I don't find it desirable. For me, Sibelius is better set off against contrasting music - Ravel, Haydn, Berlioz, whatever.


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## maestro267 (Jul 25, 2009)

Is this proof that we still don't know how to handle Sibelius 7? Can it stand alone as its own symphonic statement? Clearly Rattle thinks not.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

There are a few other works which I think are similarly awkward to handle, Roy Harris 3rd being one.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The Seventh is Sibelius' greatest symphony and would overwhelm just about ANYTHING else.

The Sixth is simply not in that league.

Just relax and get the Colin Davis/BSO recordings and enjoy them both for what they are.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

hpowders said:


> The Seventh is Sibelius' greatest symphony and would overwhelm just about ANYTHING else.
> 
> The Sixth is simply not in that league.
> 
> Just relax and get the Colin Davis/BSO recordings and enjoy them both for what they are.


See my other thread about how one programs Tapiola


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

I can see where Rattle is coming from. As a bit of Sibelius nut I often work my way through the Symphonies numerically. I like the sixth a lot. I minidisced the whole cycle from BBC Radio 3 and am looking forward to going through it all again very soon.


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