# Compare Ivan Sokolnikov with the Royal Concertbegouw



## leostokes (Mar 16, 2013)

Here are two performances that have been mistakenly identified as the same because copyright violation was alleged. Ivan Sokolnikov:

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https://soundcloud.com/ivan-sokolnikov%2Fbeethoven-country-dance
. The Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra: 



. Listen with your eyes closed.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

And this one sounds more like a hurdy gurdy. Is there a question being asked here? One certainly would not mistake the sound of one for the other, but perhaps in technical terms of range and timing of notes their software detected a match.


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## leostokes (Mar 16, 2013)

QUOTE=JAS;1226631]And this one sounds more like a hurdy gurdy. Is there a question being asked here? One certainly would not mistake the sound of one for the other, but perhaps in technical terms of range and timing of notes their software detected a match.[/QUOTE]
Are you suggesting that posts to soundcloud are rejected for copyright infringement without being listened to?


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## leostokes (Mar 16, 2013)

Are you suggesting that posts to soundcloud are rejected for copyright infringement without being listened to?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

leostokes said:


> Are you suggesting that posts to soundcloud are rejected for copyright infringement without being listened to?


That's not what I am reading.


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## leostokes (Mar 16, 2013)

You answer "no" for him. So they do listen to the post. He says Beethoven Country Dance does not resemble the RCO sound. If there is no resemblance then there is no basis for the copyright infringement claim.


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## leostokes (Mar 16, 2013)

FACT: Some claimant listened to Beethoven Country Dance and was moved by what he heard to protest copyright infringement to soundcloud in the name of the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra. 
NOTE 1. Who was this claimant? We do not know. 
NOTE 2. What is his relationship with the RCO? We don't know.
NOTE 3. What material owned by the RCO was infringed upon in the claim? We don't know.
NOTE 4. Why was the claimant listening to Ivan Sokolnikov on soundcloud? We don't know.
IMPLICATION 1. This claimant was searching for posts that sound like the RCO.
IMPLICATION 2. This claimant did not hear a hurdy gurdy like sound when he auditioned Beethoven Country Dance.
IMPLICATION 3. Some person (claimant) with a relationship to the RCO concluded that Ivan Sokolnikov's music sounds like that of the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra.


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## leostokes (Mar 16, 2013)

FACT: Ivan Sokolnikov protested to soundcloud and provided evidence that the music in his post was his own creation. His protest was successful and BCD was reinstated.
IMPLICATION 4. The claimant made two mistakes.
ERROR 1. Ivan Sokolnikov did not infringe on RCO material.
ERROR 2. The claimant’s mistake provides evidence that was not intended. Namely, that people at a high level in the world of old conventional orchestral music must now acknowledge new credible performances from the world of high technology computer performances.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Okay, we surrender.


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## leostokes (Mar 16, 2013)

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
"Mahatma Gandhi"


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

leostokes said:


> First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
> "Mahatma Gandhi"


I am the only one who paid attention so what's your point if we are making it personal, which by the way is against the rules.


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## leostokes (Mar 16, 2013)

Pugg said:


> I am the only one who paid attention so what's your point if we are making it personal, which by the way is against the rules.


I agree that the topic should not enter the personal arena. Please accept my apology.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

leostokes said:


> I agree that the topic should not enter the personal arena. Please accept my apology.


No worries, done and dusted. :cheers:


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## leostokes (Mar 16, 2013)

Pugg said:


> No worries, done and dusted. :cheers:


And thankyou for replying to my posts.


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## leostokes (Mar 16, 2013)

IS COMPOSING PROGRAMMING?

Consider a technology scenario where Beethoven's music might have come down to us in the original.

When we hear the moonlight sonata today, we might wonder how Beethoven himself played it. After all, today's pianist is a middleman. He is not Beethoven. He uses the score to create his version.

Let us suppose that there was a technology in Beethoven's day that could preserve his performance for the future. A player piano. Beethoven sits at the device in his room and plays his moonlight sonata. If we were there we could say we heard Beethoven play his moonlight sonata. With no middleman.

Assume that technology had advanced to the stage where the player piano did not have the crude mechanical limitations of the early models. Assume that it did not deteriorate and is preserved intact today.

It has recorded Beethoven's playing on a punched paper tape. If we play the device today, can we not say that we heard Beethoven play his sonata? After all when he presses the keys, the action is recorded on the paper tape as punched holes. Loud notes beside soft ones and changing tempos and crescendos and all the rest. The tape repeats the pianist's digital (and pedal) actions on the device. What we hear is a series of notes sounding just as Beethoven intended them. Now we know how he played it.

Let us take the idea one step further. Suppose the composer has learned where to put the holes in the roll of paper. He takes the music he hears in his head and using it as a guide he knows where to punch the holes. He has composed it on the device. Is that composition? Is it programming?

We have computer technology today that makes this possible. Beethoven could sit at the computer keyboard today and compose his moonlight sonata creating a music file that when played would sound the way he intended. Indeed, he could compose his 4th symphony on the computer and create a music file that when played would sound like a 90 piece orchestra.

But Beethoven is gone. So we do need some one today to create the music file based on the score. A new breed of middleman. Call him a cyber conductor.

Is it Beethoven? No. Does it eliminate the middlemen? No. Does any one want to hear it? But it can result in a valid performance. We hear a series of notes sounding in the way the composer indicated in his score. Sound that could be mistaken for a recording of a live symphony orchestra.

Gone is the 90 piece orchestra and the concert hall. What we have is a music file on the computer created by some cyber conductor like Ivan Sokolnikov.

Here is an example of Beethoven's 4th symphony the first movement.

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https://soundcloud.com/ivan-sokolnikov%2Fbeethoven-symphony-4-mov-1
. This is a new version,V(37), uploaded a day ago.

To get the full effect you should listen with large speakers and a sub woofer. It was created using JBL studio speakers to audition the progress.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

leostokes said:


> ...Let us take the idea one step further. Suppose the composer has learned where to put the holes in the roll of paper. He takes the music he hears in his head and using it as a guide he knows where to punch the holes. He has composed it on the device. Is that composition? Is it programming?


A musical score is, in effect, a program. It is a linear list of instructions on what notes to play and how to play them. It even has loops and go-to statements!

So I see little difference between composing and programming.


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## leostokes (Mar 16, 2013)

"dal segno al fine" is a goto statement.


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