# Mahler's Favorite Conductor



## Totenfeier (Mar 11, 2016)

During a recent temporary bout of insomnia, during which I tend to play symphonies in my head, this thought occurred:

Who would be the greatest Mahler conductor of all time, in Mahler's opinion, in your opinion (um, did you get that?)

Gotta go now, but will check in later. I'll tell who I think, when and if I have to.

Yep: coulda done a poll. Sorry. Talk amongst yourselves.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Off the top of my head - Bruno Walter for his direct line to Mahler. Barbirolli, Kubelik and, on occasion, Klemperer.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I believe Mahler would have placed Leonard Bernstein's Mahler conducting very high, his earlier performances with the New York Philharmonic, in particular.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

hpowders said:


> I believe Mahler would have placed Leonard Bernstein's Mahler conducting very high, his earlier performances with the New York Philharmonic, in particular.


Yeah. The first Second Symphony I heard was Bernstein. Powerful.


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## motoboy (May 19, 2008)

I don't know, but I love your name.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Barbebleu said:


> Yeah. The first Second Symphony I heard was Bernstein. Powerful.


His Mahler Third too with the NY Philharmonic is the best I've ever heard. His first Sixth was electrifying too. He was so inspired back in the NY Philharmonic days.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Bernstein, Tennstedt, Solti. The last one in controversial I know,I like it .


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## Heliogabo (Dec 29, 2014)

Bernstein is historically important, and had a healthy distance from Mahler's real person, in order to become a real interpreter of his music (different in Walter's case). 
I'd also rate Boulez very highly in Mahler.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Boulez, Walter, Bernstein - probably quite a few. Wasn't he quoted as saying he liked people interpreting his work in different ways? I doubt he'd approve of the mess that Solti makes of his First Symphony, though. Sounds like Solti heard the symphony once, on the way back home from a drunken night in Yates' Wine Lodge, in Oldham, and tried to recreate it. Absolutely awful. The 2nd movement just sounds totally wrong to me (see also Kegel).


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

I don't know, but not Bernstein or Boulez, that's for sure.


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## WaterRat (May 19, 2015)

Pugg said:


> Bernstein, Tennstedt, Solti. The last one in controversial I know,I like it .


I reckon Gustav would have been impressed by Solti's 2nd and 8th. If only George had stopped at those two.


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

Bruno Walter & Otto Klemperer would be the obvious choices as both knew him personally. Having read so much about Mahler and from Mahler himself I have no doubt Kubelik & Bernstein would have impressed him without question. Mitropoulos and Kondrashin probably would have been enjoyable for him to hear as well. He probably would have found things within Solti and Tennstedt's performances that pleased him. I don't know that he would have had one favorite. He would have loved various things about each I'm sure. Whether it was Walter's care and optimism, Klemperer's distance and pessimism, Bernstein's heart and passion, Solti's drive, etc. I'm sure he would have found enjoyment in all these things.


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## Totenfeier (Mar 11, 2016)

Thanks for the great responses! I'm interested to note how often Bernstein is mentioned; like many other people, he gave me my introduction to Mahler's world, but I would not have thought he would be mentioned so often, as folks sometimes are critical of his occasional..._excesses_. But of course, Mahler himself was excessive as well!


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## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

Bernstein would no doubt please Mahler, but personally, I think Abbado is overlooked.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Totenfeier said:


> Thanks for the great responses! I'm interested to note how often Bernstein is mentioned; like many other people, he gave me my introduction to Mahler's world, but I would not have thought he would be mentioned so often, as folks sometimes are critical of his occasional..._excesses_. But of course, Mahler himself was excessive as well!


That's why Bernstein's Mahler = overkill.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

How about Maurice Abravanel? His orchestra (Utah Symphony) comes across as scrappy, but this maestro always have something to say that's thought-provoking, even enjoyable. Besides, he was a rough contemporary of Klemperer and worked with Walter at one point while in Paris during the 1930s.


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

Chronochromie said:


> That's why Bernstein's Mahler = overkill.


Bernstein's later Mahler recordings on DG have a little more excess on them in spots but he still follows many of Mahler's smallest notes and details to a far greater degree than most other conductors who completely ignore many of his intentional effects, tempo shifts, etc. His early Columbia recordings have very little excess or idiosyncratic manners by contrast.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

How people forget ... Mengelberg, Frederick Charles Adler, and Oskar Fried studied with Mahler & recorded symphonies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willem_Mengelberg (Symphony 4, Adagietto, Fahrenden Gesellen)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Charles_Adler (Symphonies 3,6)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Fried (Symphony 2 in very poor sound)

A Mahler set with Mengelberg would surely be an incredible thing to have.


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## motoboy (May 19, 2008)

Orfeo said:


> How about Maurice Abravanel? His orchestra (Utah Symphony) comes across as scrappy, but this maestro always have something to say that's thought-provoking, even enjoyable. Besides, he was a rough contemporary of Klemperer and worked with Walter at one point while in Paris during the 1930s.


Plus the MP3 is only something like $4 on Amazon.

Edit: Oops. It's more like $28 now. Glad I got it when I did.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Barbirolli and Horenstein. Grim and ruthlessly dark, but still with the lightness to dance in his Wunderhorn moments, and without Bernstein's extroverted hysterics.


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## Totenfeier (Mar 11, 2016)

I think we all know Mahler is paradoxical: 

-elemental fortissimi/delicate orchestral coloration
-brutal power/lyrical emotionalism
-iron control/flexibility and experimentation
-struggle/resignation

...and et cetera. One-stop musical shopping.

So, my thoughts. When I consider all this, and the great conductors available, I get this: 

Mahler would like:

Klemperer, Horenstein and Tennstedt for the raw brutality

Walter and Abbado for the lyricism

Bernstein for the experimentation

(Dare I say it?) Boulez for precision

But time would fail me to mention others. I have read that Mahler thought that Fried's tempi in the 2nd were "too fast by half," which is unforgivable, except that Mahler's own piano rolls of the 5th, 1st movement, are also probably too fast by half.

Here's some I don't know well in Mahler: Bertini, Chailly, Haitink, Kubelik, Solti.

I'm hoping you gentlefolk will tell me where I'm wrong. and where I should go next (as I evolve this thread into a whole 'nother thread!):tiphat:


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I know that he has been mentioned but don't forget that John Barbirolli was the music director of the New York Philharmonic in the late 1930's, a time when there would still have been orchestra members who knew Mahler from his years with the NYPO. It is interesting to note that most of the conductors mentioned in this thread come directly or indirectly from the Austro-German tradition and Barbirolli was a notably exception to that. I think that Mahler would have been interested in a different perspective.


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## mtangent (Oct 17, 2016)

Walter, Klemperer, Barbirolli, Bernstein, Horenstein, Abravenel... All superb. 
I'd add Scherchen for an unforgettable recording of the 2nd alone.


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## Der Titan (Oct 17, 2016)

Abravanel is my favourite Mahler conductor, although his orchestra isn't world class. I like also Abaddo in Mahler. I have also Bernstein ( his early set) but Abravanel is better. I also know Solti in the 8th, but he is simply to operatic where Abravanel much more shows the spiritual dimensions of the piece. Giulini in the 9 th is also fine. Rattle is also fine in Mahler.


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## LOLWUT (Oct 12, 2016)

Like him or not, Bernstein is the greatest Mahler conductor. The only others that compare are Horenstein, Tennstedt and Walter.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

LOLWUT said:


> Like him or not, Bernstein is the greatest Mahler conductor. The only others that compare are Horenstein, Tennstedt and Walter.


Thankfully that's not true.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

joen_cph said:


> How people forget ... Mengelberg, Frederick Charles Adler, and Oskar Fried studied with Mahler & recorded symphonies.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willem_Mengelberg (Symphony 4, Adagietto, Fahrenden Gesellen)
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Charles_Adler (Symphonies 3,6)
> ...


Absolutely. Why are posters ignoring the Conductors that Mahler actually worked with?


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## JACE (Jul 18, 2014)

Surely, Mahler would have considered *himself* the greatest of all Mahler conductors.


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## JACE (Jul 18, 2014)

A few years ago, when I was active on forum dedicated to Mahler's music, we did a poll asking forum members to indicate their three "favorite" (not "greatest"!) Mahler conductors. The three conductors who got the most votes were:
- Leonard Bernstein
- Bruno Walter
- Jascha Horenstein

For what it's worth.


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## LOLWUT (Oct 12, 2016)

Chronochromie said:


> Thankfully that's not true.





JACE said:


> A few years ago, when I was active on forum dedicated to Mahler's music, we did a poll asking forum members to indicate their three "favorite" (not "greatest"!) Mahler conductors. The three conductors who got the most votes were:
> - Leonard Bernstein
> - Bruno Walter
> - Jascha Horenstein
> ...


It would seem most would disagree with you.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

LOLWUT said:


> It would seem most would disagree with you.


Nice ninja edit there...Not TC but another forum, and even if it was TC, why should I care? I'd still think Bernstein is bombastic and melodramatic, which I guess is one way of achieving popularity.


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## LOLWUT (Oct 12, 2016)

Chronochromie said:


> Nice ninja edit there...Not TC but another forum, and even if it was TC, why should I care? I'd still think Bernstein is bombastic and melodramatic, which I guess is one way of achieving popularity.


Pure elitism. Just like the other guy recommending Steve Reich over Beethoven.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

LOLWUT said:


> Pure elitism. Just like the other guy recommending Steve Reich over Beethoven.


The snipe at the end was cheap, I'll admit. But my preference, after having heard quite a few Mahler recordings? I like Kubelik, Abbado, Klemperer, Haitink, Barbirolli, Gielen. Hardly unknowns to Mahler fans.


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## LOLWUT (Oct 12, 2016)

Chronochromie said:


> The snipe at the end was cheap, I'll admit. But my preference, after having heard quite a few Mahler recordings? I like Kubelik, Abbado, Klemperer, Haitink, Barbirolli, Gielen. Hardly unknowns to Mahler fans.


Listen to Bernstein with Vienna on the final movement of the 3rd. It is so incomparable to other versions that it almost sounds like a different piece, pure heaven.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Therein lies the problem. It's just not my thing.


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## JACE (Jul 18, 2014)

LOLWUT said:


> Pure elitism. Just like the other guy recommending Steve Reich over Beethoven.


LOLWUT, I wasn't recommending Reich over Beethoven. That's silly. All I was saying is that there are MANY paths into classical music. If Reich's music presents an ready pathway into classical music based on the experiences that someone's already had, then they should take it. If Beethoven's music is an easier entry point, then they should go through THAT doorway.

It's not an "either/or" thing.


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