# Favorite cello concerto of the "Great 5"?



## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

Yo Yo Ma considered the following cello concerti to be the "Great 5": Haydn 2, Schumann, Saint-Saëns 1, Dvorak, and Elgar. Which one of these is your favorite?


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Never have connected with the Elgar; I find it boring and rambling. I do love the other four in the poll, but Dvorak takes my top prize due to the perfect combination of lyricism, energy, folksy rhapsodizing, and soloist/orchestrai interplay. Surprised that Ma did not include one of the Shostakovich concerti in his top five.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Surprised that Ma did not include one of the Shostakovich concerti in his top five.


As am I. They're both monumental contributions to the genre to me. I think it's a shame the 2nd one rarely gets performed. I really like it for its brooding introspective quality, sprinkled of Shosty's trademark jaded irony. I think the fact it's more technically demanding and darker in character means it doesn't get played as much, and it's not as outwardly attractive as the 1st is.

Seeing Saen-Saens 1 in the poll just reminded me he wrote a 2nd one he wrote which, much like Shosty, doesn't ever get performed either. I gotta check that out


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

My favorite cello concerto is Haydn 1, followed by the Dvorak.


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

Er.... Walton's is pretty good too!


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Dvorak's. And then the first Haydn. The Elgar goes downhill for me after the first couple of minutes.
(edit) add me to the list of fans of the Shostakovich 2nd. I've never listened to the Saint-Saëns, to be honest...but then I'm not fond of Saint-Saëns' work in general.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> ...I think it's a shame the 2nd one rarely gets performed. I really like it for its brooding introspective quality, sprinkled of Shosty's trademark jaded irony. I think the fact it's more technically demanding and darker in character means it doesn't get played as much, and it's not as outwardly attractive as the 1st is.


Not as immediately appealing, but very haunting (I don't know just the right word for this). If you like DSCH's 1st Cello Concerto, check out his 2nd. It may take a couple of listens.

BTW somebody mentioned a controversy over who wrote Haydn's C Major concerto. Here is some info on both of Haydn's surviving cello concertos:

It's pretty certain that Haydn was the author of the C major cello concerto, since he included the main theme in his thematic catalogue of 1765. So it was generally attributed to Haydn even before the score was discovered in 1961.

The D major concerto, on the other hand, was long considered doubtful even though it had been known (and played) for many years. One theory was that it had actually been written by Esterhazy's cellist Antonin Kraft. Such ideas were laid to rest when Haydn's autograph score was discovered in 1951.

So, full marks to Haydn all around! Anyway, given the quality of these works, I don't understand how anybody could have had doubts in the first place.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

I like Barber's _Cello Concerto_ and Britten's _Cello Symphony_. Yo-Yo Ma did both with David Zinman and the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

KenOC said:


> It's pretty certain that Haydn was the author of the C major cello concerto, since he included the main theme in his thematic catalogue of 1765. So it was generally attributed to Haydn even before the score was discovered in 1961.


I agree, since around that period, he wrote a work that resembles the cello concerto in certain parts.
Missa Cellensis in honorem B.V.M. in C major Hob XXII:5 (1766)




Cello Concerto No 1 in C major




(much like the way Mozart's K.320/i does his K.321/ii)


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## AeolianStrains (Apr 4, 2018)

On most days, it would go something like this: Dvořák > Saint-Saens 1 > Schumann > Haydn 2 > Elgar

They might not be classified as "great" in Yo Yo Ma's sense, but I think CPE Bach's (especially his A minor) and Vivaldi's cello concerti don't get enough love.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Those impossible choices .


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## Taplow (Aug 13, 2017)

There doesn't seem to be much love for the Elgar around here. I must admit to having a soft spot for it, as it's the only one I've played and performed on stage (second violin part in the orchestra - I'm not a cellist!). In fact, this concerto was unknown to me before we had our first rehearsal (I was 16). I was stunned (at the time) by its lyrical beauty and yearning sadness, and it affected me deeply. If we're talking about the famous Du Pre recording with Barbirolli and the LSO then it has to still be pretty high on the list for me.

Removing such personal connection then it is probably the Dvořák. I also love love love the CPE Bach A, WQ172 and would rank it higher than either of the Haydns (especially the BCJ recording on BIS with Hidemi Suzuki).

I don't know the Schumann at all. But I notice I have it as a 'filler' on one of my Du Pre discs (with Barenboim and the New Philharmonia) so I think I'll check it out today and rectify that immediately.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

I would certainly have put Shostakovich 1 in my top 5
But Dvorak just edges out Elgar for me. Mind you, I love both.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Dvorak by a street for me. I'm a big Elgar fan and live in Elgar country but I prefer his Violin Concerto to its cello counterpart, which (whisper it) I find a touch one-paced.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Voted Dvorak. Elgar and Shosty 1st would be in that first company for me personally.

But there are tons of others. The mentioned CPE and Kabalevsky 2nd, for example. 
Schumann isn't that close, but recordings of it vary a real lot in facilitating its attractiveness, IMO.


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## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

joen_cph said:


> Voted Dvorak. Elgar and Shosty 1st would be in that first company for me personally.
> 
> But there are tons of others. The mentioned CPE and Kabalevsky 2nd, for example.
> Schumann isn't that close, but recordings of it vary a real lot in facilitating its attractiveness, IMO.


This I agree with. Schumann's concerto is not inherently attractive like the Dvorak is and requires a cellist/orchestra which knows exactly what it is doing. There are hardly any good recordings of the Schumann at all, and it doesn't help that it was not very well known until the second half of the 20th century.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

joen_cph said:


> But there are tons of others. The mentioned CPE and Kabalevsky 2nd, for example.
> Schumann isn't that close, but recordings of it vary a real lot in facilitating its attractiveness, IMO.


I rate CPE's higher than Haydn's btw


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

From another forum, top cello concerti:
1 - Dvorák: Cello Concerto 2 in B minor Op. 104
2 - Elgar: Cello Concerto in E minor Op. 85
3 - Shostakovich: Cello Concerto 1 in E-flat Op. 107
4 - Schumann: Cello Concerto in A minor Op. 129
5 - Haydn: Cello Concerto 1 in C major
6 - Haydn: Cello Concerto 2 in D major
7 - Tchaikovsky: Rococo Variations Op. 33
8 - Shostakovich: Cello Concerto 2 in G Op. 126
9 - Boccherini: Cello Concerto 9 in B-flat
10 - Saint-Saens: Cello Concerto 1 in A minor op. 33


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

chu42 said:


> This I agree with. Schumann's concerto is not inherently attractive like the Dvorak is and requires a cellist/orchestra which knows exactly what it is doing. There are hardly any good recordings of the Schumann at all, and it doesn't help that it was not very well known until the second half of the 20th century.


I like this Fournier performance from YT:




For the aforementioned Shostakovich second, I like this Rostropovich performance (also from YT, of course):


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## Cadenza (Sep 24, 2012)

1. Dvorak
2. V. Herbert 2
3. Saint Saens 1
4. Elgar
5. Schumann


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

In order of preference:

Haydn no. 1
Shostakovich no. 1
Weinberg
Myaskovsky
Dvorak no. 2
Shostakovich no. 2
Kabalevsky no. 2


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

Great 5?

Any roomspace inside the 'great 5' for the great _*Five*_ by Charles Wuorinen for amplified cello & orchestra, 



 ... ?


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I have no qualms about the listed "top five". Put them into a shaker, shake, spill out in any order, you have a top five.

As well, I would like to toss in a number of those mentioned in the "runner up" category, especially the Walton, Shostakovich, and Barber concertos as possible contenders. And that Herbert Concerto is wonderful, too.

A couple of my personal favorites (and I love cello concertos) are still missing. I think immediately of the Witold Lutosławski Concerto which stunned me the first time I heard it, and the shock wave hasn't left my consciousness since. Add to that the concertos of Miklós Rózsa, Joly Braga Santos, Richard Danielpour, and Karl Yulyevich Davidov. So many wonderful cello concertos, possibly because the sonority of the instrument is just so perfect. Ahh ....

But my absolute _favorite_ cello concerto belongs to the scoring pen of Gerald Finzi, the Cello Concerto Op. 40, especially as performed by Raphael Wallfisch on his recording with the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra under the baton of Vernon Handley. This remains, hands down (and ears up), my all time "most listened to" cello concerto. I've heard it dozens of times, mostly via the Wallfisch recording, which never wears thin, and it melts me every time I hear it. Is it the "greatest" cello concerto of all time? A "top five" work? Probably not. But I love it, and that's what matters to me.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

SONNET CLV said:


> ...
> 
> But my absolute _favorite_ cello concerto belongs to the scoring pen of Gerald Finzi, the Cello Concerto Op. 40, especially as performed by Raphael Wallfisch on his recording with the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra under the baton of Vernon Handley. This remains, hands down (and ears up), my all time "most listened to" cello concerto. I've heard it dozens of times, mostly via the Wallfisch recording, which never wears thin, and it melts me every time I hear it. Is it the "greatest" cello concerto of all time? A "top five" work? Probably not. But I love it, and that's what matters to me.


Well then to you it *is* the greatest cello concerto of all and definitely in the top 5. There's nothing wrong with saying that. I haven't heard that one. I'll have to look it up.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

consuono said:


> Well then to you it *is* the greatest cello concerto of all and definitely in the top 5. There's nothing wrong with saying that. I haven't heard that one. I'll have to look it up.


The greatest is obviously the cello concerto that Beethoven neglected to write...


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## mparta (Sep 29, 2020)

Dvorak by a mile. Goes back a very long way, I've only heard the Dvorak and Elgar performed, but....

Elgar by Ma and CSO at Carnegie Hall opening, good if you like the piece but I think the DuPre performance stamps the ear in a way that would be hard to match. Ma certainly didn't leave an impression, however good it was at the moment.

And here comes the but.... I was lucky enough to have heard Rostropovich play the Dvorak. Beat that. It was a hypnotizing, make the audience stand in their seats and sway to the music kind of thing, generates a riot when it was over. Not to be matched by many performances of anything I've ever heard. That was a long time ago but I will NEVER forget it. Conducted by Zdenek Macal who did a rip roaring Tchaikovsky 5 to finish it off, although Rostropovich gave us Bach as encores to the Dvorak. If I seem to be bragging...

There are 2 non-concerto named concerti by Prokofiev. One a Concertino, I think unfinished and one a symphony-concerto, reworked from a poorly received concerto, aided by Rostropovich. I seldom pull them down, I have the old Russian performances by Rostropovich and somewhere in the piles, I think Lynn Harrell with Ashkenazy? But maybe they deserve a holiday rehearing, I do love Prokofiev. 

The Haydn is fine, and I don't know the Saint-Saens and his works are almost always a treat, so I should explore that. I'm waiting for Christmas delivery of his Christmas oratorio (I think?-- lol, too much going on to remember what I have coming).

But for all-- the Dvorak, such a melody!!!!


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

SONNET CLV said:


> But my absolute _favorite_ cello concerto belongs to the scoring pen of Gerald Finzi, the Cello Concerto Op. 40, especially as performed by Raphael Wallfisch on his recording with the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra under the baton of Vernon Handley. This remains, hands down (and ears up), my all time "most listened to" cello concerto. I've heard it dozens of times, mostly via the Wallfisch recording, which never wears thin, and it melts me every time I hear it. Is it the "greatest" cello concerto of all time? A "top five" work? Probably not. But I love it, and that's what matters to me.


The Finzi is my favorite in the genre as well after the Dvorak. It's absolutely luxurious! Other lesser-known cello concerti that I highly recommend are those by Martinu, Bax, and Myaskovsky.


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## AeolianStrains (Apr 4, 2018)

KenOC said:


> The greatest is obviously the cello concerto that Beethoven neglected to write...


I dunno, after Brahms' Cello Sonata in E minor, we clearly missed out on a great cello concerto from him. Then again, after the Double Concerto's frosty reception, maybe not?


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

None of the above. I have my own great 5:

Schnittke No.1
Ligeti
Lutoslawski
Honegger
Dutilleux


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

I always thought that Brahms never had to compose a cello concerto, because Dvorak's _Cello Concerto_ is the cello concerto that Brahms probably would have composed anyway; as the Dvorak is very Romantic, and thick, well-crafted, with that touch of central European folk-element that Brahms also seemed to like.

The Brahms _Double_ is a great work, one of my favorites. I like old recordings from the Golden Age of Classical Music Recordings, and the two most fresh and crisp recordings I know of are Francscatti/Fournier/Walter or alternatively Stern/Rose/Ormandy. Those who are on a tight budget needn't buy both.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

Villa-Lobos' 2 concertos are definitely nothing to be scoffed at either. I think due to the sheer volume of his prolific output, a lot of fantastic works end up falling through the cracks. 

I actually had no idea Bax wrote a cello concerto, I'm gonna listen to that.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

SONNET CLV said:


> ...
> But my absolute _favorite_ cello concerto ...





consuono said:


> Well then to you it *is* the greatest cello concerto of all and definitely in the top 5. There's nothing wrong with saying that. I haven't heard that one. I'll have to look it up.


Actually, no. I don't judge that way. Just because I _favor_ a certain work of art does not assure that it is a _great_ work of art. I talk of "greatness" here in the sense that the work has proven significant as an original, creative form and as an influence upon, say, other artists or society in general, that the work has garnered a large following and acclaim, popular and critical, and that the work serves as an exemplary example of the form it represents, in some essence reflecting what has gone on in the past, what is happening in the present, and with an eye towards innovation, the future.

Of course, I may favor "great" works. But it is not my personal opinion that prompts the greatness. Rather, such an assessment lies to society at large and all of its various components of judgment and criticism. It can generally be agreed upon, by folks of all walks and natures, whether they like the pieces or not, that such art works as Dante's _Comedia_, Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel Ceiling, Shakespeare's _Hamlet_, and Beethoven's Ninth Symphony are "great" works of art.

I enjoy the poetry of Robert Service, the music of Black Flag, the graphic work of _Mad Magazine_ artists, and my grandson's scribblings on my den wall, but I will not assume any particular greatness lies in these works (though I have hopes for the grandson's future art career).

With that stated, I stand by my affections for the Finzi Cello Concerto. But if the spaceship were leaving an Earth in peril of destruction and it was my job to supply three cello concertos for preservation, I would likely reach for the Dvorak, the Elgar, and the Schumann before having a thought of the Finzi. Part of my judgment here is based on this idea: I believe Dvorak and Elgar and Schumann could have written their concerti without ever knowing the Finzi, but I'm not sure Finzi could have written his without knowing theirs.

Still, I love the Finzi Cello Concerto. And there are those who suggest the Finzi Clarinet Concerto is an even finer piece. Though it has similar sonorities, I've never taken to it with the same relish I have for the cello work. I'm happy you, consuono, will take a gander at it. I think you'll like it, too.


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## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

Coach G said:


> I always thought that Brahms never had to compose a cello concerto, because Dvorak's _Cello Concerto_ is the cello concerto that Brahms probably would have composed anyway; as the Dvorak is very Romantic, and thick, well-crafted, with that touch of central European folk-element that Brahms also seemed to like.


Hm, interesting take but I don't think Dvořák sounds like Brahms at all! Especially in the folk element, certainly they would've derived their ideas from different ethnicities.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

AeolianStrains said:


> I dunno, after Brahms' Cello Sonata in E minor, we clearly missed out on a great cello concerto from him. Then again, after the Double Concerto's frosty reception, maybe not?


I read once that Brahms hesitated to write a cello concerto primarily due to the difficulty of making the solo cello heard through his usually rather dense orchestration. But when he heard Dvorak's concerto, he said, "If I'd known you could do that, I'd have written one myself!"


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## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

KenOC said:


> I read once that Brahms hesitated to write a cello concerto primarily due to the difficulty of making the solo cello heard through his usually rather dense orchestration.


You don't say. The solo violin has enough trouble being heard in his violin sonatas.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Difficult because I love them all but voted Schumann as that one is my favourite


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Outside of some Schumann, not really interested in any of these composers. No wonder the cello concerto isn't a format that really interests me. However one work mentioned in this thread that has peaked my interest, is the Walton. I do enjoy his violin concerto, don't think I've heard his cello concerto.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I just remembered that I do have a favorite work in this genre, it is the Rodrigo cello concerto.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> Er.... Walton's is pretty good too!


As are Leighton's, Myaskovsky's, and Kabalevky's Second. Heck, I even enjoy Lalo's


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Of these , I voted for Dvorak's, probably by a country mile. However, I am also surprised that there's no Shostakovich here. His Second is a one his most deeply-felt works, and too often overlooked, overshadowed as it is by the more popular/populist First.


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## MusicSybarite (Aug 17, 2017)

CnC Bartok said:


> Of these , I voted for Dvorak's, probably by a country mile. However, I am also surprised that there's no Shostakovich here. His Second is a one his most deeply-felt works, and too often overlooked, overshadowed as it is by the more popular/populist First.


I also enjoy the 2nd Cello Concerto. But in terms of variety of moods, I prefer the 1st one. Once I heard that work live and I was floored. That concerto has malice, satire, poignancy (the 2nd movement), irreverence, quirky passages, whereas the 2nd one is mostly spooky and introspective. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but my preferences lean towards the E-flat concerto hands down. It's firmly on my top 10 of favorite cello concertos ever.


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## MusicSybarite (Aug 17, 2017)

For my tastes, Dvorak's Cello Concerto in B minor is the supreme king of this format. I mean, this composer never tired of writing tuneful, striking, memorable, stupendous music? Fortunately he didn't! This work has everything, above all eloquency. Dvorak got the soul of the instrument upon composing this everlasting masterpiece. I heard this magnificent work twice live, and both times I was moved to tears. An impressive work by a genius.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

MusicSybarite said:


> I also enjoy the 2nd Cello Concerto. But in terms of variety of moods, I prefer the 1st one. Once I heard that work live and I was floored. That concerto has malice, satire, poignancy (the 2nd movement), irreverence, quirky passages, whereas the 2nd one is mostly spooky and introspective. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but my preferences lean towards the E-flat concerto hands down. It's firmly on my top 10 of favorite cello concertos ever.


Nothing wrong with varying opinions! But there's more to the Second than mere introspection. You mention the "soul" of the instrument in the Dvorak, I reckon the Second's got that.

Having said that, both of the Shostakovich Concertos would make my top ten!

And if tdc is referring to the Rodrigo concerto written for Julian Lloyd Webber, then I'll happily concur! I remember years ago a wonderful documentary about its commissioning on TV, and I just loved the reverence JLW showed the ageing composer, as well as the sense of collaboration between the two of them.


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## jimsumner (Jul 7, 2013)

I voted for the Elgar and also support the viewpoint that Shostakovich 1 belongs on any short list and Shostakovich 2 on any slightly longer list.

But I've long been intrigued by the fact that so many UK composers seemed to have one but only one cello concerto in them. Elgar, Delius, Walton, Finzi, Britten, Arnold, Bax, Moeran, Howells, Stanford, Rubbra, Rawsthorne, Sullivan and others I've no doubt forgotten at the moment.

It's a pity that Vaughan Williams kept putting aside his efforts in that genre. For all of his undeniable gifts he never seemed comfortable in the concerto idiom.


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## Musicaterina (Apr 5, 2020)

I voted for the cello concerto by Antonin Dvorak, but I also like both Haydn cello concertos very much. In my opinion at least one of the many cello concertos by Antonio Vivaldi and Luigi Boccherini should be to choose, but I must admit that it is difficult to decide in favour of one of them. At least I like all cello concertos by Boccherini and Vivaldi very much  .


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## Terrapin (Apr 15, 2011)

1. Dvorak
.
.
2. Schumann
3. Haydn
4. Saint-Saens
5. Elgar


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

The Elgar is my favorite, and is one of my favorite five compositions of any kind. I am surprised it is not getting more love on this forum. I am also quite fond of the Dvorak, but would definitely rank it second in rank. I also like the Saint Saens and Schumann. Never warmed up to the Haydn concertos. I would have instead substituted either the Lalo or Tchaikovsky's Rococo Variations for them in this list.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

I just listened to the 2nd Saint Saens recently. Much like Shostakovich, his 2nd concerto is always pitifully neglected. It's absolutely worth listening to


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

In error, sorry, wrong thread.


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

Haydn 2. Dvorak comes in second.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

The Haydn cello concertos are the greatest concertos for the instrument. This thread/poll is very aptly named "*Great* 5".


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## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

ArtMusic said:


> The Haydn cello concertos are the greatest concertos for the instrument. This thread/poll is very aptly named "*Great* 5".


Yes, I would agree with you that the Haydn cello concertos are some of the greatest concerti around.

By the way, even you couldn't argue that the usage of the term "great" is objective at all here, since it's just the ones that Yo-Yo Ma picked. So by definition, completely subjective.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

chu42 said:


> Yes, I would agree with you that the Haydn cello concertos are some of the greatest concerti around.
> 
> By the way, even you couldn't argue that the usage of the term "great" is objective at all here, since it's just the ones that Yo-Yo Ma picked. So by definition, completely subjective.


Subjective, objective, word of God, word of a critic .... whatever you please. What matters is that it is GREAT.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Of the ones selected by Yo Yo Ma, I would probably not pick a single one for my own top five. Elgar, Saint-Saens and Dvorak would be candidate for my top ten. The Haydn concertos don't do it for me.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Here is something rather unusual, a great concerto for two cellos.


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