# 'Naturalistic' Art-Song Performance



## cheregi (Jul 16, 2020)

Recently I've become interested in recordings of melodies, lieder, song cycles, songs without cycles, etc. - mostly voice-and-piano - and I've found that I'm rather put off by the more 'operatic' singing which seems to dominate in this realm... for example, in a survey of Faure song recordings, it seems Gerard Souzay is widely acknowledged as most 'definitive', but _to me_ Marc Mauillon's is almost in a whole different league in terms of how effective or affective or 'touching' it is, largely because of differences in voice production that I register as 'more intimate'. Does anyone else feel similarly? Who are some other singers approaching the art-song repertoire in unorthodox ways?


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

cheregi said:


> Recently I've become interested in recordings of melodies, lieder, song cycles, songs without cycles, etc. - mostly voice-and-piano - and I've found that I'm rather put off by the more 'operatic' singing which seems to dominate in this realm... for example, in a survey of Faure song recordings, it seems Gerard Souzay is widely acknowledged as most 'definitive', but _to me_ Marc Mauillon's is almost in a whole different league in terms of how effective or affective or 'touching' it is, largely because of differences in voice production that I register as 'more intimate'. Does anyone else feel similarly? Who are some other singers approaching the art-song repertoire in unorthodox ways?


We do have a vocal sections, perhaps do you get there more response .


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Get the Netania Davrath recording of the Songs of the Auvergne by Canteloube. A natural, unaffected, beautiful voice. I know what you mean: it's what makes Bernstein's DG recording of West Side Story so awful. Those operatic voices are just wrong.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

That is what I have against Schubert's Wintereisse (or at least Fischer Dieskau's). Don't like the affected singing. Don't know if it's sexist, but I don't mind soprano or mezzo for lieder.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

cheregi said:


> Recently I've become interested in recordings of melodies, lieder, song cycles, songs without cycles, etc. - mostly voice-and-piano - and I've found that I'm rather put off by the more 'operatic' singing which seems to dominate in this realm... for example, in a survey of Faure song recordings, it seems Gerard Souzay is widely acknowledged as most 'definitive', but _to me_ Marc Mauillon's is almost in a whole different league in terms of how effective or affective or 'touching' it is, largely because of differences in voice production that I register as 'more intimate'. Does anyone else feel similarly? Who are some other singers approaching the art-song repertoire in unorthodox ways?


Just thinking about men for the moment, for non operatic projection try Petre Muntaunu, Peter Schreier and Ian Partridge.

For "unorthodox" investigate Karl Erb, Peter Pears, Hugues Cuenod, Alexander Kipnis, Yoshikazu Mera, Dietrich Fischer Dieskau, Charles Panzera and John Vickers.

Re Souzay, he became a bit self conscious as his fame grew, try to hear early recordings.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

It's a shame that "operatic" singing has come to mean, to many people, heavy and vibrato-ridden singing. I can't disagree that a large proportion of contemporary singing fits that description all too well. But I have to say that a seemingly untrained (or partially trained) voice like Marc Mauillon's doesn't strike me as the antidote. I can see where he might appeal to people whose background is in non-classical music, but to me he sounds like an undergraduate. I find him quite bland, both vocally and musically, and the best I can say for his voice is that it's not unpleasant most of the time, at least not in repertoire where volume is not required (his louder, higher notes don't make me want to hear him in anything more dramatic). Would it be unfair to describe him as a sort of classical John Denver?

Souzay, with the technique of a singer trained fully and well, can play his instrument like a cello, projecting intensity and sensuality through the sound itself, binding notes together with a true legato, and shading phrases subtly and expressively in ways that seem, from the little I've heard, not to be part of Mauillon's technical and artistic repertoire.






I'm all for fresh approaches to familiar music, but Mauillon's singing seems to me not fresh but simply unformed and amateurish. "Apres un reve" is harder to sing than its notes alone suggest. I sang it as part of my undergraduate recital, and despite never having acquired a fully formed technique I think I 
made more of it than Mauillon does here. But I _will_ give him credit for perfect French! 

Here's an interpretation I find magical, catching the song's dreaminess and passion perfectly:






Frederica von Stade takes a daringly slow tempo and justifies it:


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I'm all for fresh approaches to familiar music, but Mauillon's singing seems to me not fresh but simply unformed and amateurish. "Apres un reve" is harder to sing than its notes alone suggest. I sang it as part of my undergraduate recital, and despite never having acquired a fully formed technique I think I
> made more of it than Mauillon does here. But I _will_ give him credit for perfect French!


I think you've missed the point that Cheregi was making.



cheregi said:


> Marc Mauillon's[/URL] is almost in a whole different league in terms of how effective or affective or 'touching' it is, largely because of differences in voice production that I register as 'more intimate'.


But my real reason for posting was that I was struck by this comment from the composer Martin Arnold



> It seems to me that one of the defining features of aristocratic/bourgeois European music of the 18th and 19th centuries - the standard repertoire of what gets called Classical music - is the way it emulates aristocratic/bourgeois European narrative and drama, the way that again, through cultural conventions, it asserts the idea that the composer has something to say, that that something is important, and that music is only medium through which that something can be truly expressed. My music doesn't seek to take part in this emulation (nor, by the way, do most of the traditional folk musics that inspire me).


And I can see that performances which are informed by the conservatory singing do indeed make the music sound as though it has something true and important to say -- whether that's a plus point or a weakness of the _art of singing_ style is another question.

http://www.anothertimbre.com/stainballads.html


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

The most important thing for me in singing is natural diction -- listen to Jérôme Corréas


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Mandryka said:


> I think you've missed the point that Cheregi was making.


I don't think I missed anything. But if I did I'm open to correction by Cheregi.



> But my real reason for posting was that I was struck by this comment from the composer Martin Arnold:
> 
> "It seems to me that one of the defining features of aristocratic/bourgeois European music of the 18th and 19th centuries - the standard repertoire of what gets called Classical music - is the way it emulates aristocratic/bourgeois European narrative and drama, the way that again, through cultural conventions, it asserts the idea that the composer has something to say, that that something is important, and that music is only medium through which that something can be truly expressed. My music doesn't seek to take part in this emulation (nor, by the way, do most of the traditional folk musics that inspire me)."
> 
> ...


It's a very peculiar notion that European classical music is unusual in having something "true and important" to say, and that this aspect of music (or art generally) expresses an "aristocratic/bourgeois narrative." Since the aristocracy and the bourgeois constitute two of the four traditional European social classes, that presumably leaves the working class and the poor with music that has nothing true and important to say. This would come as a surprise to the working class and the poor.

This is the sort of pretentiously worded "artist's statement" that conceals its real purpose as a rationalization and justification for the artist's own work. Is it necessary to point out in the immediate case that Gabriel Faure's music belongs to that very "aristocratic/bourgeois" European classical tradition? Or that the pedagogical traditions of European classical singing date back at least to the 18th century? The idea behind that pedagogical tradition is that the voice can be trained to possess a maximum of flexibility, dynamic range, and tonal purity, matching the skills required of instrumentalists, thus giving composers the greatest possible range of options.

There's nothing inherently wrong with a pleasant "natural" voice like Mauillion's, but the fact is that there's more in Faure's music than such a voice can express, and it was Faure who put it there. He would be startled, and possibly amused, at the idea that an exquisite singer like Barbara Hendricks was merely making his music "sound as though it has something true and important to say."


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Mandryka said:


> The most important thing for me in singing is natural diction -- listen to Jérôme Corréas


Nice. Very nuanced and evocative.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Phil loves classical said:


> That is what I have against Schubert's Wintereisse (or at least Fischer Dieskau's). Don't like the affected singing. Don't know if it's sexist, but I don't mind soprano or mezzo for lieder.


Perhaps there is hope still that the right "amateur" will connect with this cycle.

The Winterreise Project, sponsored for amateur musicians through the Victoria Conservatory of Music, is an experimental performance course during which a group of 27 amateur adult pianists and singers received professional-level training on weekends and evenings over a two-month period and presented a joint performance of Schubert's song cycle _Winterreise_ at the end of the course.






Then again, hearing some of these performances may make you rethink any criticisms you have against the professionals presenting these songs.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> There's nothing inherently wrong with a pleasant "natural" voice like Mauillion's, but the fact is that there's more in Faure's music than such a voice can express, and it was Faure who put it there. He would be startled, and possibly amused, at the idea that an exquisite singer like Barbara Hendricks was merely making his music "sound as though it has something true and important to say."


I've not heard Marc Mauillon in Faure (I've heard enough Faure for one day!) I know him as a Machaut singer, in fact I've seen him do that stuff in concert. I enjoy what he does, I'm interested in what he does there, but I can see where your coming from about his voice. What I find with his Machaut -- he tends to take the music unusually slowly resulting in some extremely long durations -- what I find is that his way of singing isn't interesting enough to sustain my interest all the way to the end, though it makes quite an impact at the beginning. He seems to avoid going into a storytelling mode, and that may be a mistake in this sort of long strophic medieval song.

That being said, I'm glad to know his Machaut and will keep it and revisit it from time to time. This is the sort of thing


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Nice. Very nuanced and evocative.


Yes, he's great with the words, the poetry -- that's what I like. That what Pears could do, and Vickers.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> It's a very peculiar notion that European classical music is unusual in having something "true and important" to say, and that this aspect of music (or art generally) expresses an "aristocratic/bourgeois narrative." Since the aristocracy and the bourgeois constitute two of the four traditional European social classes, that presumably leaves the working class and the poor with music that has nothing true and important to say. This would come as a surprise to the working class and the poor.


Priests. The clergy are evidently the class with nothing true to say, and IMO nothing important to say either.


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## cheregi (Jul 16, 2020)

Thanks all for the recommendations - I am enjoying or at least intrigued by them all.



Mandryka said:


> But my real reason for posting was that I was struck by this comment from the composer Martin Arnold


Very interesting interview and quote.



Woodduck said:


> I don't think I missed anything. But if I did I'm open to correction by Cheregi.


It's true that I don't have much classical background, and I'm sure operatic singing in general would feel less stilted and artificial to me if I spent more time immersed in it. And I do appreciate Souzay more today than I did yesterday. But, still, in Mauillon's performance there are moments where his voice almost breaks, or becomes almost too nasal in a way that suggests desperation, and Souzay can only approximate these moments in a kind of theatrical gesturing-towards-breaking-voice, etc., which is just totally different... Certainly, what Souzay is doing requires more training, but I don't come to music primarily to appreciate how much labor it took for a performer to be able to do something; and comparing Souzay and Mauillon, if anything, makes me more curious to hear a _real_ 'untrained' folk singer perform this repertoire. On the other hand, I may feel differently tomorrow!

As for the Martin Arnold quote, at the risk of over-interpreting (and this is just an interview, so presumably without benefit of extensive editing), I see him as referring more to thr emphasis on, first of all, the fact that it's the _composer's_ vision which must be expressed, and secondly, the presumed specificity or uniqueness of that vision - and then from that point of view it's almost 'disrespectful' for a performer _not_ to wring every ounce of 'meaningfulness' from each moment, and then we get canonical works being played slower and slower over generations... I think it's possible (I'm not necessarily committed to this reading) that such an approach is at odds with certain kinds of subtlety or nuance you might find in jazz or even pop ballads, where 'understatement', or seeming-casualness-concealing-deep-emotion, or even something close to sprezzatura, are all much more acceptable...


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

See what you think of Juliet Fraser


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## cheregi (Jul 16, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> See what you think of Juliet Fraser


Thanks, I'm enjoying her Finnissy recording quite a bit.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

cheregi said:


> Thanks, I'm enjoying her Finnissy recording quite a bit.


Im not sure what I think of the Finnissy as music, for me she's most interesting in Cassandra Miller's music, Cassandra Miller writes specifically for her. You'll find more examples on Vimeo than on YouTube.


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