# Vast Improbabilities



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Hi people - good to meet you all.

There aren't many operas I love, and I've been interested in the problem of access. (I'm really going to stand out in this group - never in my life ever been tempted to say anything good about Wagner! Sorry, sorry, sorry ...)

But it occurs to me that improbability is really important to good opera. I cannot think of an opera that doesn't have jaw-dropping improbabilities baked in. That couldn't be true if improbability wasn't really important to good opera. So here's an experiment.

Ballo in Maschera. What is the most improbable improbability in the opera?

My vote: he never touched her.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

guythegreg said:


> Hi people - good to meet you all.
> 
> There aren't many operas I love, and I've been interested in the problem of access. (I'm really going to stand out in this group - never in my life ever been tempted to say anything good about Wagner! Sorry, sorry, sorry ...)


There are lots of Wagner fans on here, but I'm not one of them 



guythegreg said:


> But it occurs to me that improbability is really important to good opera. I cannot think of an opera that doesn't have jaw-dropping improbabilities baked in. That couldn't be true if improbability wasn't really important to good opera. So here's an experiment.
> 
> Ballo in Maschera. What is the most improbable improbability in the opera?
> 
> My vote: he never touched her.


Interesting thought.

_Il trovatore_ Which mother would throw the wrong baby into a fire? :lol:


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

Operas aren't documentaries.
They're metaphors, myths, populated by archetypes. The best deal in truths at an unconscious level.


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## Hesoos (Jun 9, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> Hi people - good to meet you all.
> 
> There aren't many operas I love, and I've been interested in the problem of access. (I'm really going to stand out in this group - never in my life ever been tempted to say anything good about Wagner! Sorry, sorry, sorry ...)
> 
> ...


Un ballo in maschera is a good exemple of your explanation. 
The improbability is in the exist of the witch, hers magical powers, all the coincidences when the principals meet, Riccardo knows that going to the ball can mean his dead, but he goes anyway.
----------------------
When I began to listen to opera, I didn't like Wagner. Once I tried with The Rheingold on dvd and I coudn't believe that the music was so beatiful. Wagner is actually so original because his music is descriptive, it's not only nice tunes. For a beginner perhaps is difficult. I think you can try to give another chance to Wagner, the words and the story is not separable from the music, is actually a musical drama, you need to understand the drama and then the litmotivs overwhelm you. 
----------------------
The improbability is not important to good opera. It's just a romantic ingredient for the Romanticism's operas.

The romanticism's operas are improbabilies because they are romantic stories. In the Romanticism are fantastic themes like ghosts, witches, monsters...( Un ballo in maschera, Faust, Trovatore, Macbeth, The flyindg Dutchman, Der Ring, Der Freischutz...) irational coincidences, principals that meet in the worst moment (Ernani, Rigoletto, Lomabrdi, La forza del destino...), high level of ideals that lead to kill your wife, sister, mother or son for the least thing (un ballo in maschera, Forza del destino, Trovatore, Semiramide....) , love that leads to the suicide (Tristan und Isolde, Aida, Les Troyens...), irational sentiments, mad scenes (Lucia di Lammermoor, Linda di Chamounix...), mad sacrifices (Norma, Trovatore...) irational secrets, principals in disguise (Lohengrin, Luisa Miller...) changed historical themes (Giovanna d'Arco, Les Huguenots, L'Africaine, ...)

Anyway, La Traviata or Carmen perhaps are much more real
You can try also verismo operas in most of them you can find real stories, they are probables. I pagliacci, Cavalleria, La Boheme, La fanciulla del west, Madama Butterfly... 
Turandot maybe is Romantic opera...?


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## Hesoos (Jun 9, 2012)

sospiro said:


> There are lots of Wagner fans on here, but I'm not one of them
> 
> Interesting thought.
> 
> _Il trovatore_ Which mother would throw the wrong baby into a fire? :lol:


You are right, Il trovatore is perhaps the most improbable opera seria of all.
Il trovatore and La forza del destino are so wonderful works but both, I think, the most "stupid" (I say "stupid" with love, I'm verdian). Verdi liked the coincidences and believed in the destiny.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Perhaps we should blame Shakespeare, since he wrote the original play. But Desdemona seems awfully clueless; it's fairly clear early on that something is really bugging her husband, and she doesn't seem to react to it (other than to deny his accusation that she's a "courtesan.") Come to think of it, Otello isn't exactly the Great Communicator himself.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Jeremy Marchant said:


> Operas aren't documentaries.
> They're metaphors, myths, populated by archetypes. The best deal in truths at an unconscious level.


I've been wondering about "truth" too - Stephen King, in his writing about writing, talks about being "truthful" but of course almost everything he wrote was a complete fabrication so it's not clear what he meant by that. I've been reading Believing in Opera (by Tom Sutcliffe) and he seems to believe deeply that opera is about finding the truth in one way, while other theater is about finding the truth in others, but I really don't think opera or theater have much to do with the truth, myself. People have so much of hypocrisy and vanity in them that to suppose them really interested in the truth is a bit of a stretch, I think. Dark, I know, but ... um, truthful?


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Hesoos said:


> Un ballo in maschera is a good exemple of your explanation.
> The improbability is in the exist of the witch, hers magical powers, all the coincidences when the principals meet, Riccardo knows that going to the ball can mean his dead, but he goes anyway.
> 
> Right, that's a good one, I didn't think of that.
> ...


anyway, thanks for your thoughts!


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## Hesoos (Jun 9, 2012)

Romantic opera was based on a Romanticism's stories, mythology, Sheakspeare, legends...

La traviata is based on a book by the French Dumas, The Lady of the Camellias 1848 . Dumas based his book on a true story that he himself experienced. The premiere of La traviata failed because the realism of the story, the people don't liked it, the realism was too much cruel to bear. Tuberculosis, real characters, contemporary time, scandals of the bourgeoisie, a courtesan...

Carmen was based on a novella of the same title by the French Prosper Mérimée 1845. Mérimée wrote Carmen inspired by a story Countess of Montijo told him on his visit to Spain in 1830. When the opera was first performed on 1875 was not at first particularly successful. There is too difficult issues for the audience of the time, a time no far, the life of the proletarians, a girl that play with the sentiments...

In literature the Realism was the style that began 1840- 1850. 
In opera the Realism began with Cavalleria Rusticana 1890. La traviata and Carmen were just experiments.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

This is a repeat of a previous post of mine . People who think that opera plots are silly and improbable
should remember Superhorn's law of opera :

The opera has yet to be written with a plot as ridiculous as what happens in real life !
Just read the newspapers and see how absurd real life is !


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Hesoos said:


> The premiere of La traviata failed because the realism of the story, the people don't liked it, the realism was too much cruel to bear. Tuberculosis, real characters, contemporary time, scandals of the bourgeoisie, a courtesan...


I guess the "improbability" all depends on perspective, eh? Audiences of that time supposedly weren't used to hearing of courtesans, and so regardless of the fantasies involved in a courtesan with a heart of gold, it seemed realistic because it was new? I do wonder.


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## Hesoos (Jun 9, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> I guess the "improbability" all depends on perspective, eh? Audiences of that time supposedly weren't used to hearing of courtesans, and so regardless of the fantasies involved in a courtesan with a heart of gold, it seemed realistic because it was new? I do wonder.


Maybe you are right...


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