# Should We Pay More for Classical Music?



## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

Hallo,

*I apologise if this is posted in the wrong section I had some debate with myself where to post it.*

I like particular preformers whom I have seen in concert several times. They no longer release physical records or at least they have not done so since 2010 in one instance. As a small collector this saddens me but also worries me. If the wind was to change would could see their music disappear from the internet. It is why I buy both digital and physical for books and music etc.

With CDs sales forever in decline (actual music sales of files are down year on year also). It is not viable for some to put out records for purchase. What about streaming? Well is a terrible deal for the artists figures for 2018 show:

*"Spotify pays about $0.006 to $0.0084 per stream to the holder of music rights. And the "holder" can be split among the record label, producers, artists, and songwriters..."*

I personally would pay €30-40 for CD and have done so, even more if it is in a nice package with notes or a booklet. I would buy more music digitally if it was lossless (FLAC etc) some sites offer "Master Recording" in FLAC but this is far from the norm and certainly not a big catalog like iTunes or Amazon.

Am I alone or would my fellow TC members think this would be worth while?


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

That's a shame about musicians not recording. There is something to be said for leaving a permant legacy. As a jazz fan, I know there are several great performers that we know hardly anything about because they refused to record. 

I don't know about the viability of expensive CDs. As an alternative, I like the method that a talented trombone player whom I follow uses. She has a list of fans, and when it's time for a recording, she announces it to her fanbase and takes preorders, giving monthly updates and releasing secret recordings/videos periodically for us insiders, and inviting those preorder fans in the area to attend the recording. She raised the entire amount in six months, and it's being mixed now. 

I think that is an effective way of doing it, because it creates a buzz, then excitement watching the goal being reached, then anticipation as she goes into the studio. So she's getting us emotionally involved in the process, and one thing basic to human nature is responding to positive incentives.


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## AeolianStrains (Apr 4, 2018)

Zofia said:


> I personally would pay €30-40 for CD and have done so, even more if it is in a nice package with notes or a booklet. I would buy more music digitally if it was lossless (FLAC etc) some sites offer "Master Recording" in FLAC but this is far from the norm and certainly not a big catalog like iTunes or Amazon.
> 
> Am I alone or would my fellow TC members think this would be worth while?


I think this is an excellent way to prevent the poorer masses from experiencing classical music.


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

AeolianStrains said:


> I think this is an excellent way to prevent the poorer masses from experiencing classical music.


The poorer masses who spend $1000 on a cellphone? I'm not saying do not stream the music I'm basically asking for something like what Manx is saying the person he follows does. I do this with several musicians and a few pop musicians also.

Also I wish people would climb off their pedestal about the poor masses they are not poor at least not in the West. We are the global 1% and sadly the majority do not want anything to do with classical music. I am trying to work out away of it to be viable for the artist. The masses were not buying classical musicians when it was less than 10 Euro a disc so increasing the price won't have much if any negative effect.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

With declining CD and download sales, it might be difficult to charge more for a CD in a down market. But I am convinced that musicians are getting a raw deal in their streaming royalties and I’d like to see them get considerably more. I think the only way that one could charge more for CDs is by knowing that more of the sales royalties are going directly to the musicians rather than the CEOs of the record companies. The CEOs have such leverage in the music business now because they own the rights to some of these huge catalogs that the live musicians have to compete against in order to get a larger share of the market. It’s almost as if these record companies with so many labels that they’ve absorbed or bought out exist as a virtual monopoly controlling the market. I think it’s a terrible situation for live musicians and I don’t really know what to suggest so musicians and groups can get paid more of a living wage for their tremendous creativity. The CEOs of these streaming companies should be ashamed of themselves for what they pay out in royalties. If it were me, I would want to produce my own CDs and market them, but even that would be tough to do because people love the convenience of streaming and yet they aren’t willing to pay that much for even that. If the older generation can’t solve this problem, I hope the younger one can come up with a workable solution in the coming years. I applaud you for trying to do something.


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

Larkenfield said:


> With declining CD and download sales, it might be difficult to charge more for a CD in a down market. But I am convinced that musicians are getting a raw deal in their streaming royalties and I'd like to see them get considerably more. I think the only way that one could charge more for CDs is by knowing that more of the sales royalties are going directly to the musicians rather than the CEOs of the record companies. The CEOs have such leverage in the music business now because they own the rights to some of these huge catalogs that the live musicians have to compete against in order to get a larger share of the market. It's almost as if these record companies with so many labels that they've absorbed or bought out exist as a virtual monopoly controlling the market. I think it's a terrible situation for live musicians and I don't really know what to suggest so musicians and groups can get paid more of a living wage for their tremendous creativity. The CEOs of these streaming companies should be ashamed of themselves for what they pay out in royalties.


I'm not meaning just the standard CD though. Limited Edition for examples DVD sales are down, DVDs are still cheap but steelbooks or collectors editions are for what amounts to the same product in a cool box a lot of the time 3 - 5 times more expensive. They also sell out incredibly quickly.


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## newyorkconversation (Dec 6, 2017)

The orchestras and quartets I follow seem to put out quite a lot of material, whether it's particularly lucrative or not. Which sorts of artists are you thinking of? I do think a lossless digital file is a better fit for classical than a low-bitrate MP3 stream of course.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Zofia said:


> I'm not meaning just the standard CD though. Limited Edition for examples DVD sales are down, DVDs are still cheap but steelbooks or collectors editions are for what amounts to the same product in a cool box a lot of the time 3 - 5 times more expensive. They also sell out incredibly quickly.


Oh yes. I see what you mean. Perhaps it's worth a try.


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

Larkenfield said:


> Oh yes. I see what you mean. Perhaps it's worth a try.


Example:


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

*Should We Pay More for Classical Music? *

But … don't they always say: "The best things in life are free!"?


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I don't know if I am from the poorer masses but I can't afford all the records I want and my phone cost less than $100! There are a few items I pay a high price for and I am fussy about performances but in general I look for bargains. One thing I don't understand is why so many downloads cost as much as they do - often around the price of the proper CD, sometimes more. I tend to be more adventurous with artists and music when the price is low. I wonder what the economics would be of recording performances from concerts and selling them cheap as downloads from an artist's (or an artists' community) site? 

In Britain I get the sense that it is the orchestral musicians who have lost out most from the current poor sales prospects for classical CDs.


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## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

I keep saying this but this will be the last time. Either buy CD's or stream. Never purchase a download and store it on your computer or external hard drive. 

The minute your computer get's hit with Ransomware or some other type of malware your whole music collection could be toast. Many times when your computer actually gets infected, you won't know it. The first sign might be that your computer runs slower than normal. 

These things work different ways, but one day you see a red screen with skull and crossbones on your screen and everything on your hard drive and external hard drive are encrypted. You are asked to pay a ransom to get your files back. Your music collection probably gone forever unless your willing to pay the ransom and they are good enough to give you the decryption key.

People will say, that they'll just back up. If your lucky that might work. But since you don't know exactly when you got infected or exactly what it did, you might just backup the infection. 

If you think this can't possibly happen to you then "google" the word 'malvertising'.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I don't pay for streaming services. There's plenty of physical product to keep me waist high in recordings for the rest of my days. I don't need to listen to every other recording made.


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## BabyGiraffe (Feb 24, 2017)

I think that the era of musical patrons and sponsors will come back. You can always try to donate some money to the performer or composer that you like so much. Many great educational youtube videos are funded this way.

It's not like that by buying the CD or streaming, or buying a file you will support the artist. Big label owners and people from the stores are the only people that can get rich, unless you are really popular with many thousands or millions of sales/streams as an artist.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

I really do feel sorry for classical musicians nowadays. Think back to the '60s when the great orchestras of Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Chicago, Cleveland in the US alone were regularly churning out lucrative records. Some of the conductors (Bernstein in particular) made vast fortunes. In Europe, the Karajan/Berlin combo made enormous sums of money. And these records sold. Now, conductors and orchestras are having to create their own in-house labels and they're constantly being compared to the accomplishments of the older generation. To be sure, there are some world class players whose recordings sell - not sure how much. Lang Lang for one. Yo Yo another. The principal clarinet in Berlin has a new cd out; I wonder how many can be sold? He's good, but I don't think that matters as much as his obvious sex appeal.

So should we pay more? In a market economy, the answer is clear: NO. I think that in many ways the classical world has doomed itself because they charge too much for a product that not so many people want. Whether it's cds, concert tickets, opera seats, or even printed music, the average person finds themselves priced of the classics. Prices to the LA Phil and Met Opera are outrageous and performances are becoming the playground of the rich and famous.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

haydnguy said:


> I keep saying this but this will be the last time. Either buy CD's or stream. Never purchase a download and store it on your computer or external hard drive.
> 
> The minute your computer get's hit with Ransomware or some other type of malware your whole music collection could be toast. Many times when your computer actually gets infected, you won't know it. The first sign might be that your computer runs slower than normal.


I always back up my hard disk. I have a full back up no more than a month old on an external device and and older one (probably a year old) on another.


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

@*Enthusiast* Of course for whatever the personal reasons there will be some who maybe could not afford it. However there are the other options for people like yourself. I am sorry if I came off as cold it was not my meaning. I was only trying to point out "a lot" of the people who I am told are poor have the most best running shoes or cell phones. They could afford it if they wanted it and yes of course there are those who cannot but regardless of price if it is unaffordable that is true for everyone.

@*HaydnGuy* Most sellers will allow you to re-download your entire purchase history. I personally rip most of my music using EXACT AUDIO COPY (EAC). I do however download and think it is safe to do so.

However this is the reason I started the thread some musicians like Gavriel Lipkind self publish digitally removing the option now.

@*BabyGiraffe* While I think you might be right. This practice has never really stopped my eldest brother is a professional cellist and conductor. His cello was gifted to him (on loan) by a benefactor has had it 20 years.

I do as Manx suggested I sign up and preorder limited run albums and go to flash concerts when they are within my travel area. I pledge €100 a month to several YouTubers I watch also it is a good idea.


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

Enthusiast said:


> I always back up my hard disk. I have a full back up no more than a month old on an external device and and older one (probably a year old) on another.


Same also making a data CD or back up to usb drive is a good idea.


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

starthrower said:


> I don't pay for streaming services. There's plenty of physical product to keep me waist high in recordings for the rest of my days. I don't need to listen to every other recording made.


This is the good attribute to have. I personally only use streaming as we have the family plan. Since Mother got sick streaming has been a great thing for here. I bought her the Alexa speaker so she does not need to fiddle with tablets and she loves it.

I think all ways are viable and good for the artist if used as part of a combination I just fear physical will disappear sooner or later. Perhaps even downloads I do not wish to only rent music.


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## Joe B (Aug 10, 2017)

Having redundancy is good. Backup is a little different. I've got files on a NAS with redundant drives. These are further backed up to 3 other drives. This gives good redundancy.
My real "*Backup*" is the drive that gets backed up every 3 months and lives a mile away in the safety deposit box at my bank. If you really want to protect your data, off site/in the cloud is required besides redundancy.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Total self-financing via only market profits will reduce the classical music sector into more elitism and shrinken musical life into something much less creative and poorer in content. Of course, this is particularly relevant for smaller countries and their cultural life and heritage. There has to be support beyond the market mechanisms.

But as regards the internet giants - Youtube, Google and Facebook - they are facing increased critique these days and this also includes more demands for regulations.

Recently, the EU began a new, intensified legislation process that will deal with increased copyright control in the digital media. That the giants didn't like this was illustrated by for example a Danish EU parlamentarian receiving 36,000 e-mails asking to stop that initiative, in just a few hours - allegedly from worried citizens, but it turns out that it was likely an articificial reaction created by Google bots; this is now being investigated.

Some key issues of the legislation are:

"_Better protection for European authors and performers and for journalism:

The new Directive reinforces the position of European authors and performers in the digital environment and enhances high-quality journalism in the EU. In particular, it brings:
- Tangible benefits to all creative sectors, specifically creators and actors in the audio-visual and musical sectors, by reinforcing their position vis-à-vis platforms to have more control over the use of their content uploaded by users on these platforms and be remunerated for it.
- The principle of an appropriate and proportionate remuneration for authors and performers will be laid down for the first time in European copyright law.
- Authors and performers will enjoy access to transparent information on how their works and performances are exploited by their counterparts (publishers and producers). This will make it easier for them to negotiate future contracts and to receive a fairer share of the generated revenues. 
- If publishers or producers fail to exploit the rights that authors and performers have transferred to them, authors and performers will be allowed to revoke their rights_."

etc. The proposal was acknowledged by the European Parliament last year, but it since has come to a halt in January, during to a series of countries being against some of its details. I think however it is symptomatic for some current critical thinking towards the web that is likely to gain further influence.

(http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-19-528_en.htm).


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Zofia said:


> The poorer masses who spend $1000 on a cellphone?


Delusional. Hardly anyone with a low income is spending $1000 (or euros or pounds) on a phone. They are getting phones 'free' as part of contracts. Let's get that out of the way.



Zofia said:


> I'm not saying do not stream the music I'm basically asking for something like what Manx is saying the person he follows does. I do this with several musicians and a few pop musicians also.


Delivery of music is pretty much internet-based now and went that way because a lot of people went all giddy for things you can get online rather than buying it. Anyone being honest with themselves will admit that they are rather capricious and move around the web looking for new (and cheap and free) content to listen to. 
It's great to support an artist in any way, but can you really imagine supporting as many artists as could cater to your listening tastes? Once the money has been raised to record something and the small group of people who paid for it then get it, then what? Released to the wider community who are not as invested and only willing to pay that paltry 0.01-0.99 cents charged by the companies who dominate such music distribution?



Zofia said:


> Also I wish people would climb off their pedestal about the poor masses they are not poor at least not in the West. We are the global 1% and sadly the majority do not want anything to do with classical music. I am trying to work out away of it to be viable for the artist. The masses were not buying classical musicians when it was less than 10 Euro a disc so increasing the price won't have much if any negative effect.


Even the poor of a 'global 1%' who are poor relative to their economic environment (something you may one day learn when you step out of your bubble) do not have money for endless luxuries and certainly not cultural objects in which they aren't even interested.

The price of music is reflected by the unfortunate (for artists) nature of how technology can deliver it. That Pandora's Box has been opened, raided and discarded long ago. If anyone wants to see fair economic justice for artists it's not going to be under these economic circumstances.


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

joen_cph said:


> Total self-financing via only market profits will reduce the classical music sector into more elitism and shrinken musical life into something much less creative and poorer in content. Of course, this is particularly relevant for smaller countries and their cultural life and heritage. There has to be support beyond the market mechanisms.
> 
> But as regards the internet giants - Youtube, Google and Facebook - they are facing increased critique these days and this also includes more demands for regulations.
> 
> ...


The real reason for this was to ban memes as AM was infuriated by a Hitler meme of her. She was also scared of people disagreeing with her public policy on FaceBook and can be heard telling Zuckerburg it must be stopped.

Do not let them fool you into thinking restrictions of speech is good. You would actually need to pay for posting a link to a website so RIP current listening/latest purchase.


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## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

Joe B said:


> Having redundancy is good. Backup is a little different. I've got files on a NAS with redundant drives. These are further backed up to 3 other drives. This gives good redundancy.
> My real "*Backup*" is the drive that gets backed up every 3 months and lives a mile away in the safety deposit box at my bank. If you really want to protect your data, off site/in the cloud is required besides redundancy.


Based on your description, the thing that really keeps you secure is the backup at the bank. Anything on a NAS is vulnerable. Let me say (since I didn't the first time) it's not like we're all totally helpless. Get a GOOD malware program and keep it updated. Use strong passwords, and all that. I use a VPN. I never use the same password twice. My hard drive is encrypted (by me).

I still got hit not long ago. Some level of experience and blind luck saved me.


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

eugeneonagain said:


> Delusional. Hardly anyone with a low income is spending $1000 (or euros or pounds) on a phone. They are getting phones 'free' as part of contracts. Let's get that out of the way.
> 
> Delivery of music is pretty much internet-based now and went that way because a lot of people went all giddy for things you can get online rather than buying it. Anyone being honest with themselves will admit that they are rather capricious and move around the web looking for new (and cheap and free) content to listen to.
> It's great to support an artist in any way, but can you really imagine supporting as many artists as could cater to your listening tastes? Once the money has been raised to record something and the small group of people who paid for it then get it, then what? Released to the wider community who are not as invested and only willing to pay that paltry 0.01-0.99 cents charged by the companies who dominate such music distribution?
> ...


You do not get the phone free with the contract you pay for the phone via the contract the more expensive the phone the more expensive the contract. I see the advertising fooled you well sir.


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## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

Part of the problem we have on our forum is that we live in different countries and so some things are different. I live in the U.S. and haven't been out of my country so I know nothing about other places. I can only speak for where I am.

I just read a couple of days ago that EMI effectively went "under". A bank technically (or maybe literally) owns them now. If EMI goes belly up you know the times are changing. The article I saw said that Paul McCartney, Katy Perry, and a couple of others that I didn't recognize had left altogether. 

Here is something that I've wondered. (I'm asking, I never came up with an answer). How does classical music maintain it's integrity not to "sell out" but at the same time appeal to newer and newer generations. 

It seems to me we need to always honor the past but also create newness. When I first started listening to classical music I was surprised that everyone just kept saying how great the people of the past were and shunned talented people of the present. My thought on this topic is, "if all you have is a past, that means you have no future." That's why I buy young performers even though some people may think they arean't as good as the "greats". Otto Klemperer may have been great but he'll sell very few copies to "generation-z". But at the same time we can't sell out either. We can't just go wherever the biggest bucks are like popular music pretty much does.

I dont know. I personally don't think that classical music is going to be able to survive simply in the marketplace without either private or government subsidy. I certainly think that's true in the U.S. where, compared to Europe, art culture is not even an understood term.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

haydnguy said:


> I keep saying this but this will be the last time. Either buy CD's or stream. Never purchase a download and store it on your computer or external hard drive.
> 
> The minute your computer get's hit with Ransomware or some other type of malware your whole music collection could be toast. Many times when your computer actually gets infected, you won't know it. The first sign might be that your computer runs slower than normal.
> 
> ...


It's unfortunate when something like this happens, but this is why some people always back up their files by using the Cloud where they can be stored. It's also helpful to store valuable files on an external hard drive that can be disconnected from the computer as an additional back up. It can be very upsetting to lose an entire library. Sorry that this happened to you.


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## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

I keep my pictures, documents, etc., in the cloud and everything else is expendable. I have CD's so I don't worry about those. 

When I got hit, it was a two-pronged attack. When I first got infected, I didn't know it. I was infected but I didn't realize it. One month (to the day) later, all hell broke loose. When that happened I had to make some decisions very quickly. Fortunately, I was able to to act correctly enough that I got rid of it.


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## newyorkconversation (Dec 6, 2017)

I'm not sure that income from the sale of recorded music is truly needed to support a reasonable number of good orchestras. Seems like this has only been a phenomenon for about 60 years (1950-2010) out of the 150 years or so that we've had symphonies. It also seems to me that we have more than enough touring soloists. More music is available streaming than was ever available on the radio - just the BPO and NYPO archives could keep someone busy for years. 

If the live audience dies, the music dies. That I do believe. We need to keep music education and awareness high enough for the next generation to come to the concert hall. 

But there's no reason streaming can't do that as well as -- or possibly much better than -- physical copies of recorded music that consumers have to pay for.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

eugeneonagain said:


> Delusional. Hardly anyone with a low income is spending $1000 (or euros or pounds) on a phone. They are getting phones 'free' as part of contracts. Let's get that out of the way.
> 
> Delivery of music is pretty much internet-based now and went that way because a lot of people went all giddy for things you can get online rather than buying it. Anyone being honest with themselves will admit that they are rather capricious and move around the web looking for new (and cheap and free) content to listen to.
> It's great to support an artist in any way, but can you really imagine supporting as many artists as could cater to your listening tastes? Once the money has been raised to record something and the small group of people who paid for it then get it, then what? Released to the wider community who are not as invested and only willing to pay that paltry 0.01-0.99 cents charged by the companies who dominate such music distribution?
> ...


She's not necessarily appealing to the low income market. Not everything has to be geared for low-income people, though there's no shame in not having a lot of money. She's referring to special editions that might be a particular advantage to the musicians. At least she's thinking of something constructive rather than being a negative obstructionist and rudely calling her "delusional". Is this how you would talk to your 15-year-old daughter if you had one, tell her she's delusional perhaps as a way of building her confidence? Not everybody can afford a Mercedes-Benz either but that doesn't mean the car shouldn't be manufactured. Lots of people spend on expensive iPhones with the current price for the premium model being about $750 which of course includes a phone plan. But people are spending on the phones first not the plans first because it's an exceptionally good phone. So there is a market for those who have the funds, and maybe some would have more funds if they weren't thinking of others as spoiled, class-conscious elitists. I do not pick up a snob vibe from Zofia but find her a very thoughtful, considerate, and creative young lady, and I'm sure many of us would appreciate that certain rude and tactless individuals keep their cotton pick-in hands off her if they have nothing constructive to say or lack diplomacy and tact.

https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-iphone/iphone-xr/6.1-inch-display-64gb-black-verizon


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## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

But the idea is not to support the orchestras (which we need to do of course). The relatively few tech companies that have risen to prominence should not be allowed to have such control (even as much as they do now). 

I want choice without being tracked. You once could go into a record shop (new or used) and buy anything you want and no one cared. With streaming, everything you listen to is tracked. Analytics is the bane of the internet.

I usually go to certain financial sites just out of curiosity and once saw that Victoria Secret was in decline. I thought that was curious. How could Victoria Secret be in decline? I went over to the Victoria Secret's website and for the next 3 days had to look at women's underwear while I browsed. No thank you.


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## Schoenberg (Oct 15, 2018)

"As an artist, you do not rake in a million marks without performing some sacrifice on the altar of Art."
--Franz Liszt


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

haydnguy said:


> But the idea is not to support the orchestras (which we need to do of course). The relatively few tech companies that have risen to prominence should not be allowed to have such control (even as much as they do now).
> 
> I want choice without being tracked. You once could go into a record shop (new or used) and buy anything you want and no one cared. With streaming, everything you listen to is tracked. Analytics is the bane of the internet.
> 
> I usually go to certain financial sites just out of curiosity and once saw that Victoria Secret was in decline. I thought that was curious. How could Victoria Secret be in decline? I went over to the Victoria Secret's website and for the next 3 days had to look at women's underwear while I browsed. No thank you.


Victoria Secrets? That's bad. Evidently, it looks like sex may be economically downgraded to a handshake! Lol.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

What is the salary for the average Classical musician? I've always thought it was respectable, modest earnings.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> What is the salary for the average Classical musician? I've always thought it was respectable, modest earnings.


I could be wrong, but I believe the average Classical musician is unemployed.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Please refrain from personal comments. Some comments were removed and future personal ones will be removed.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Captainnumber36 said:


> What is the salary for the average Classical musician? I've always thought it was respectable, modest earnings.


I think that's correct for "working" musicians. But I don't know if the figures take into account musicians who are unemployed or living hand-to-mouth doing gigs when they can get them.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Schoenberg said:


> "As an artist, you do not rake in a million marks without performing some sacrifice on the altar of Art."
> --Franz Liszt


Franz Berwald, a fine though probably second-tier composer in Liszt's time, couldn't support himself with his music. At various times he ran an osteopathic surgery selling self-designed prosthetic devices, managed a glass factory, and ran a sawmill. All of these did better than his artistic pursuits.

He wrote a friend: "Music makes a thin soup."


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

haydnguy said:


> I keep saying this but this will be the last time. Either buy CD's or stream. Never purchase a download and store it on your computer or external hard drive.
> 
> The minute your computer get's hit with Ransomware or some other type of malware your whole music collection could be toast. Many times when your computer actually gets infected, you won't know it. The first sign might be that your computer runs slower than normal.
> 
> ...


I have a diverse collection, all ripped to FLAC files. I store these files in multiple locations, including two micro SD cards (one of them on a non-connected music device) and an external hard drive.

I don't think it's worth prohibiting yourself from enjoying the convenience of music files. But like you say, it's wise to take precautions, especially when you can get a sizable SD card for $50 or less.


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## AeolianStrains (Apr 4, 2018)

Larkenfield said:


> She's not necessarily appealing to the low income market. Not everything has to be geared for low-income people, though there's no shame in not having a lot of money. She's referring to special editions that might be a particular advantage to the musicians.


I don't think that was clear at all from the OP, even after rereading. In that particular case, the idea is already been done, and more power to the celebrity trombonists or pianists and whatnot. It has nothing to do with classical music per se, though.

I think it's an awful idea to make classical music as a whole like that. That was my only concern.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

KenOC said:


> I think that's correct for "working" musicians. But I don't know if the figures take into account musicians who are unemployed or living hand-to-mouth doing gigs when they can get them.


Perhaps they should have thought twice before choosing their educational path if they weren't good enough to become a professional? There is always teaching at academies and such!

There is money in that, along with a few performances from time to time.


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## StrangeHocusPocus (Mar 8, 2019)

I think there should be a affirmative action in terms of promoting music post 1900. ie for Music pre 1900 you pay double to subsidise music post 1900. In fact that would make post 1900 music free


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

StrangeHocusPocus said:


> I think the should be a affirmative action in terms of promoting music post 1900. ie for Music pre 1900 you pay double to subsidise music post 1900. In fact that would make post 1900 music free


That's using the old noggin!


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## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

I think the OP's question is legitimate. I've been thinking about this and, here again, maybe my age may play a part.

I paid full price for virtually every vinyl, 8-track tape, and CD I ever had. So I'm "used to" paying for my music. As a teenager, if I had seen today's Youtube I would have said, "OH YEAH!". :clap:

But when I look back, the record companies were unwittingly doing us teenagers a favor.

Obviously, there were exceptions but for the most part the record companies controlled pretty much everything. They chose the bands to record, they chose when to put an album out (usually about 1 a year for a popular band). They would choose a song off this album to put on play lists that would be played in radio stations all over the country. Their hope, of course, was that you would go out and buy the album that the song was on.

Then after a period of time they might put a second song off the album on the play lists. Here again, the song would play all over the country for a period of time. The key thing here is that with these play lists, juke boxes, our own 8-track players in our cars, *we were all pretty much listening to the same music during the same period of time.* The record companies were moving us along song-by-song, album-by-album. All the while they were racking in the dough. (This was during the <wince>boomers era.)

Of course we all grew up, went off to schools, had families, etc. Then we would have occasional school reunions. At these reunions they would crank up the music that we had all listened to in high school and it was like it was the old days again. We loved it, not because it was great music but because in our minds we associated that music with the good times we had had in school. The way that was possible was that we had all been listening to the same music at the same time when we were back in school. Thanks to the way the record companies marketed their music.

Yeah, I would put a quarter in that juke box again. I"m not a member of Spotify either. (Not criticizing anyone who is. Everyone does what they feel is best for themselves.)


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## StrangeHocusPocus (Mar 8, 2019)

^Did you ever buy pianola rolls


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## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

StrangeHocusPocus said:


> ^Did you ever buy pianola rolls


No, where I lived they didn't sell them but you could buy them in the big cities.


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## StrangeHocusPocus (Mar 8, 2019)

haydnguy said:


> No, where I lived they didn't sell them but you could buy them in the big cities.


Any jelly rolls


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Zofia said:


> @*Enthusiast* Of course for whatever the personal reasons there will be some who maybe could not afford it. However there are the other options for people like yourself. I am sorry if I came off as cold it was not my meaning. I was only trying to point out "a lot" of the people who I am told are poor have the most best running shoes or cell phones. They could afford it if they wanted it and yes of course there are those who cannot but regardless of price if it is unaffordable that is true for everyone.


No, Zofia, I don't find you cold. Not exactly. But, as a politician, you need to at least sound like you care about the impact of your policy on the poor! If you don't it can come over as a bit "let them eat cake"! And, yes, poverty does exist in Western Europe even if wealthy people have little sense of it. I don't know about Germany (although I do know a very poor German - it is all spirituality with him) but in Britain there are very many very poor families and even many professionals like teachers need to use food banks (free donated food) to get by. Now, some people will say that "OK, there are poor people, but they are not the audience for classical music" and will support that argument with a stereotyped image of the poor family. But people who love classical music can be found in all socioeconomic groups.

It would almost be true to say that music is what makes my life worth living. Even though I don't have so much money these days, I'm lucky. I can still afford to buy the odd CD and, where there is a good saving by doing so, the odd download. And for much of the last 25 years I had quite a lot of money and bought a huge number of CDs, many of which I have only listened to once or twice. In the past two years I have experienced an accelerated understanding and enjoyment of some music that I have been interested in for two decades but had not managed to fully get into (some composers who I didn't immediately take to, a lot of contemporary music and early music). Recently, and fueled by a collection of CDs that included many that I had only listened to very occasionally, a lot of that music has started to talk to me and I have come to love it. But if I didn't have a backlog of CDs to feed my developing tastes I would probably be missing out on a lot of incredible enjoyment. I would hate to see myself getting priced out of the classical music market.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

As the music market is constantly changing, it now seems that the profit model of recorded music is pretty much over. This means that Live concerts are getting more important for musicians to make money. So, if you want to help musicians and yourself, go see more live concerts. It is the best way of experiencing music and it cuts out the middle man, being the record company. 
The good thing of it is that musicians can use Youtube to help their rise to fame or crowdfunding to finance a professional CD recording. And I do like that I can get CD's now for normal prices. I still remember the arrival of the CD, where ridiculous prices were asked for often half empty discs and you just couldn't afford to develop your musical taste in getting a varied discotheque. Spotify and Amazon jointly are the new record store.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_I personally would pay €30-40 for CD and have done so, even more if it is in a nice package with notes or a booklet. I would buy more music digitally if it was lossless (FLAC etc) some sites offer "Master Recording" in FLAC but this is far from the norm and certainly not a big catalog like iTunes or Amazon. Am I alone or would my fellow TC members think this would be worth while? _

That depends on your circumstances and taste. I know a lot of people visiting here don't discern differences from one recording to the next so they wouldn't pay more. I've been collecting a half century, have the economic resources to buy what I want, and often have connoisseur taste.

I have spent as much as $150 American for rarities when only one exists on the market. To me money is not a factor when I find what I seek -- though I would never pay more than a dollar or two for a digital file. It would have to be hardcopy with at least some prospective resale value down the road.

As an example I once paid $150 for a copy of the 4-CD version of Wendy Carlos's Switched-On Bach box set. This is a rarity still selling on Amazon USA for between $182 and $445. I found it on ebay selling between $124 and $300. I eventually made digital copies of mine, made digital and hardcopy pages of the covers and notes, bought a 4-CD box and created my own set, then sold my original for more than I paid. So I have the music and made money on my transaction.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

NLAdriaan said:


> As the music market is constantly changing, it now seems that the profit model of recorded music is pretty much over. This means that Live concerts are getting more important for musicians to make money. So, if you want to help musicians and yourself, go see more live concerts. It is the best way of experiencing music and it cuts out the middle man, being the record company.
> The good thing of it is that musicians can use Youtube to help their rise to fame or crowdfunding to finance a professional CD recording. And I do like that I can get CD's now for normal prices. I still remember the arrival of the CD, where ridiculous prices were asked for often half empty discs and you just couldn't afford to develop your musical taste in getting a varied discotheque. Spotify and Amazon jointly are the new record store.


I live in a small town and we do occasionally - rarely but occasionally - get classical concerts from reputable (and sometimes quite famous) performers. They sell out almost immediately. So few seem willing to step into the market that is obviously here.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

starthrower said:


> I don't pay for streaming services. There's plenty of physical product to keep me waist high in recordings for the rest of my days. I don't need to listen to every other recording made.


I use a streaming service to reduce my desire for physical product. If I listen to something on Spotify, and like it enough to play it repeatedly, I'll purchase it. Before streaming services existed, the only way for me to find out if I liked something was to purchase it.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Zofia said:


> I personally would pay €30-40 for CD and have done so, even more if it is in a nice package with notes or a booklet. I would buy more music digitally if it was lossless (FLAC etc) some sites offer "Master Recording" in FLAC but this is far from the norm and certainly not a big catalog like iTunes or Amazon.
> 
> Am I alone or would my fellow TC members think this would be worth while?


I don't think that you're alone, but I suspect that most people here are like me. I have a very, very large collection of recorded music, mostly CD's. I doubt that I've spent more than $20 on a single CD or LP more than handful of times, and those have invariably been items that are long OOP and seemed unlikely for reissue. And in almost every case, including the $110 I paid for an obscure Russian recording of Winterreise, I've been proved wrong.

There are very, very few musicians whose recordings I'd pay the sort of premium that you suggest. If I'm going to shell out $40-50, I'd rather spend it on a live performance.

I don't think that most musicians expect to make a lot of money for their recordings - whether they should or not is another topic. Instead, I think that most use recordings as ways to get themselves into the public eye and attract an audience for their live performances.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

When I first saw this thread in the listing, I thought it said "Should We _PRAY_ More for Classical Music."


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

I think we should pay more for music in general. $40 per CD? No. But $10-$15 perhaps. 

With that said, given the plethora of used options out there, it's very hard to say no to a $6 CD that plays just as well as a new one.

When downloadable hi-res music can be had for a reasonable price (say, $15 per album), I feel pretty good about buying it. But $25 and up is too much for a hour of music in my book.


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## Bkeske (Feb 27, 2019)

I purchase all my CD’s used (sometimes I get a new one sold as new) on eBay cheap. I’ve also getting back into vinyl and buy those pretty darn cheap on eBay as well. I just bought 15 used LP’s this past weekend, all in VG to mint condition for $60 +/- including shipping. All classical selections.

It is unfortunate that sales of new CD’s is very very small and many are paying for quality streaming instead (myself included) or using ‘free’ services. But when I really want something, I’ll try to find it on a physical medium, as I like to have the ‘hard copy’ no matter the quality of streaming. New vinyl is ridiculously expensive, and unfortunately not up to standards of the older stuff of 35-50 years ago. 

In reality though, streaming is the direction music is heading, but there will always be those small selected few that will continue to put out quality CD’s or vinyl. Regardless if it’s classical or not, those will cost a premium, so many are more than happy to spend $20-25 a month for a quality streaming service, and have thousands of selections literally at their fingertips instead of purchasing separate CD’s or LP’s.


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## fliege (Nov 7, 2017)

haydnguy said:


> I keep saying this but this will be the last time. Either buy CD's or stream. Never purchase a download and store it on your computer or external hard drive.
> 
> The minute your computer get's hit with Ransomware or some other type of malware your whole music collection could be toast. Many times when your computer actually gets infected, you won't know it. The first sign might be that your computer runs slower than normal.


People routinely have much more important files on their computer than music recordings. The correct answer is to have a proper back-up strategy, not avoid buying downloads because you're worried about a totally preventable problem. If you're backed up and you get hit then just wipe the drive and restore from the last known good back-up.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

$40 for a classical disc? Not a chance. What a great way to price classical music out of the grasp of people with less money and set it apart from standard music punters. I've never paid more than £20 for any single classical cd and the most I've paid for a box set is £60. As CDs are slowly dying they're getting cheaper. There's no way I'm coughing out more and being penalised for buying the music I love. Charging too much for CDs just causes more piracy.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

wkasimer said:


> I use a streaming service to reduce my desire for physical product. If I listen to something on Spotify, and like it enough to play it repeatedly, I'll purchase it. Before streaming services existed, the only way for me to find out if I liked something was to purchase it.


I loved that aspect of record buying. I did it hundreds of times. Only ended up with a clunker on rare occasions.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

wkasimer said:


> I use a streaming service to reduce my desire for physical product. If I listen to something on Spotify, and like it enough to play it repeatedly, I'll purchase it. Before streaming services existed, the only way for me to find out if I liked something was to purchase it.


With streaming services, we became less dependent on reviewers and informed musicstores. Combined with the unlimited storage of online stores, you can now find the lowest price for any CD you are looking for. TC sometimes also is a great help in finding new music or appreciating your existing music collection. Although I do find it sad that my favourite music stores are closing down, as a result of all this.


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

The CD has been around long enough for some obsolete items to become collector's items and they can cost an arm and a leg today. It's a supply and demand thing I suppose. It's sad. Streaming is not necessarily cheaper in the long run, but it's a new way of consuming music, and it does bring back some of those obsolete items. Having said that I still love the sight of a CD esp. an obsolete item (or for that matter an LP) on my bookshelf. :lol:


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

fliege said:


> People routinely have much more important files on their computer than music recordings. The correct answer is to have a proper back-up strategy, not avoid buying downloads because you're a. worried about a totally preventable problem. If you're backed up and you get hit then just wipe the drive and restore from the last known good back-up.


Get a Mac and backup your data. Works for me.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

millionrainbows said:


> When I first saw this thread in the listing, I thought it said "Should We _PRAY_ More for Classical Music."


We probably should.


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2019)

Larkenfield said:


> At least she's thinking of something constructive rather than being a negative obstructionist and rudely calling her "delusional". Is this how you would talk to your 15-year-old daughter if you had one, tell her she's delusional perhaps as a way of building her confidence? ... I do not pick up a snob vibe from Zofia but find her a very thoughtful, considerate, and creative young lady, and I'm sure many of us would appreciate that certain rude and tactless individuals keep their cotton pick-in hands off her if they have nothing constructive to say or lack diplomacy and tact.


Holymoly. Hindsight is 20:20.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Root said:


> Holymoly. Hindsight is 20:20.


And your point is? It is you who are late: Larkenfield's post is 5 days old and responded to a post from less than 3 hours earlier.


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2019)

Enthusiast said:


> And your point is? It is you who are late: Larkenfield's post is 5 days old and responded to *a post from less than 3 hours earlier.*


My point? Hindsight is 20:20.


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