# Schnabel's Beethoven Sonatas



## misterjones

This seems to have been touched upon here before, but perhaps not as a separate thread: What is the best sounding CD recording of the complete Schnabel-Beethoven sonatas? I've been listening to the free mp3 downloads from archive.org and I suspect there are some vastly superior CD versions. I typically tend to prefer resonance and hiss over extensive noise reduction. Although I'm interested in what's currently available, opinions on unavailble sets (like the Dante version) are also welcome.


----------



## misterjones

Wow! 141 views and no opinion on this? Interesting.


----------



## Air

Pearl. Naxos Historical.


----------



## misterjones

I heard the Naxos (library copies) and wasn't impressed. The free (complete) downloads from archive.org sounded about the same to me. People seem have good things to say about Pearl. I'd love to find that Dante set, though (or at least find out who got their remasters).


----------



## Ukko

"I typically tend to prefer resonance and hiss over extensive noise reduction."

Given that preference, the Pearl remasterings are your best bet (if you can find them). There is very little noise reduction. Once I become acclimated to the surface noise, Schnabel's touch comes through better than in the Naxos remasterings (which have the benefit of modern, high-tech equipment and a very skilled engineer, but are apparently too filtered for your taste).

The Dante set has 'extensive noise reduction'. The sound is only marginally better than EMI's LP transfer, and varies quite a bit among the sonatas.

Hope this helps.


----------



## misterjones

Interesting. So many people on the internet have drooled over the set like it was some sort of musical second coming. Glad I didn't find a super-expensive set somewhere and face Naxos-like disappointment.


----------



## misterjones

I recently compared one minute clips from each of the following:
(1) Dante
(2) EMI
(3) EMI Shinseido
(4) Naxos 
(5) Nuovo Era
(6) Pearl
All were very close to my ears - I have a better ear for pre-war blues - but I thought the Pearl was excessively noisy in relation to the increase (if any) in the underlying quality of the music. I thought the best were Naxos and EMI Shinseido. The other three had better noise reduction, but a concomitant decrease in sound quality.


----------



## Ukko

misterjones said:


> I recently compared one minute clips from each of the following:
> (1) Dante
> (2) EMI
> (3) EMI Shinseido
> (4) Naxos
> (5) Nuovo Era
> (6) Pearl
> All were very close to my ears -


[...]
Either one minute clips are not enough, or your ears are in even worse shape than mine. The latter case being unlikely, I suggest longer listens, at least to the EMI and the Naxos (access to those should be fairly easy).


----------



## kv466

Hi fidelity or not, are they even worth listening to?...






hardly tempestous






a version truly worthy of being called, The Tempest


----------



## Webernite

"I think that Schnabel, and I'm not saying anything new, was probably the greatest Beethoven player who ever lived." - Glenn Gould


----------



## Ukko

Webernite said:


> "I think that Schnabel, and I'm not saying anything new, was probably the greatest Beethoven player who ever lived." - Glenn Gould


He's my co-favorite with Gilels - who had better technique, and much better sounding recordings. Their interpretations are complimentary (in one sense of that word).


----------



## misterjones

Hilltroll72 said:


> [...]
> Either one minute clips are not enough, or your ears are in even worse shape than mine. The latter case being unlikely, I suggest longer listens, at least to the EMI and the Naxos (access to those should be fairly easy).


Your e-mail suggests you have listened to the EMI Shinseido. If you have heard it and can say EMI and Naxos are better, that's fine. But if not . . .

I likely can get some of the Naxoses to compare, and perhaps some of the non-Japanese EMI versions. I'd love to hear more of the Pearl for the hell of it, but that set seems to be MIA.


----------



## Ukko

EMI, not Shinseido; was unaware of that one. Re the Pearl, the surface noise is pretty much constant and unchanging. Many listeners are able to 'tune it out', but it usually takes several minutes for that to happen. A '78' fanatic of my acquaintance via forums has the theory that our brains are actually assisted by that noise to provide the illusion of a coherent frequency range that doesn't exist in the recording. Based on my experience he may be right.

The Pearl set is probably available at elevated prices, I suspect mostly by people who have ripped copies for themselves.


----------



## Webernite

Hilltroll72 said:


> He's my co-favorite with Gilels - who had better technique, and much better sounding recordings. Their interpretations are complimentary (in one sense of that word).


Gilels was an excellent pianist, but I don't rank him with Schnabel. Of course, as modern recordings go, Gilels' is one of the better ones. He plays with plenty of clarity.


----------



## Vaneyes

I haven't heard EMI Shinseido, but of the rest the EMI GROC ART 2CD (2004 remastering) is the best I've heard. That said, I still don't like Schnabel. Has a tendency to bang bang. Waiting for Lang Lang to record the Waldstein, for comparison. Speaking of that Sonata, my preference is Gilels, with Gulda kept in reserve for something more radical.


----------



## misterjones

Bang bang . . . you might be right, but I have an historical interest in music that sometimes supersedes better peformances. I compared the EMI Shinseido to Naxos (Piano Sonata No.1) and the Naxos is certainly noisier, but seems to have a better underlying sound. Maybe the issue is EMI's remastering, which perhaps supersedes the release I've heard portions of. So your recommendation of the 2004 edition might be the answer (and what others are touting). EMI's newer Casals Bach cello suites release sounded quite good. (I replaced my Naxos with it.) So far, though, the differences in the Schnabel I'm hearing are so minute that it's hard to get exited about any of the versions. Perhaps I'll given the Gilels a try.


----------



## misterjones

I listened to some of the Gilels and he certainly plays with emotion and delicacy that Schnabel does not. But I'm overall more of a primitive in my musical tastes, so I think I prefer Schnabel's percussive attack.

I listened to more Naxos, EMI and EMI Shinsedio. I'm not sure which version of EMI I listened to, but the noise reduction and loss of sound quality was too much IMO. Also, I'm no longer sure the noisier Naxos actually has better underlying sound than the Shinseido. (I just can't tell because of the surface noise.) Shinseido still has some surface noise, but I think on balance it's the one I prefer. Here's something I came across elsewhere on the internet that discusses the EMI Shinseido. I cannot vouch for the accuracy of who remastered what and/or what the various sources for the CDs were, but I agree with the sound quality assessment:

*I have uploaded WAV samples of three CD transfers that were made of the historic Artur Schnabel's Beethoven sonata performances. The samples include one of EMI, Naxos and Pearl (OOP.) I think they clearly show the differences in mastering approaches that each of these labels took for these performances.

If you wish, you can download the samples here. (http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=45732805cf458166c74064dd4c81b7 8ae18e115634b0aa6f)

If you guys get a chance, could you please download these three samples? They are only 45 seconds long each and I love to know your impressions. There is a debate that has been going on about the SQ of these elsewhere on the internet and I would like to get to the bottom of this. I will tell you that the Naxos and Pearl were transferred from 78s and the EMI was transferred from a vinyl (much quieter) 78 that was reportedly made directly from the metal master. So the extra high frequency one hears on the Naxos or the Pearl some think is just an illusion.

What do you think?

I have just added another (and IMO superior) transfer of the Schnabel Beethoven Sonatas. It is from this set:

http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/7150/ahhfwwwclassical0005m.jpg

You can download the new sample, along with the others, here. (http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=45732805cf458166c74064dd4c81b7 8ae18e115634b0aa6f) It is labeled EMI Shinseido.

On my stereo, the piano tone is much fuller and forward than the Naxos, with much less noise than the Naxos or the Pearl, with very little lost (if at all) to the upper frequencies. I did a little detective work, using a spot on one of the sonatas where there is some obvious noise and it appears that this EMI set uses the same source as the Dante (Robin had suggested earlier that the Dante used the analog LPs by Keith Hardwick), only it doesn't have the noise reduction that the Dante has. This EMI sounds remarkably well, better than any of the others IMO. The transfers were done by Yoshihiro Kojima and Yukio Ohtani in 2002.*


----------



## burns

I have just come across this thread and read it with interest and a little surprise. I have been a fan of the work of Andrew Rose at Pristine Classical for some years. He has started to reissue the Schnabel recordings with modern noise reduction and the results are terrific: no reduction in naturalness or dynamics, although the hiss does come and go a little. You can hear free samples of his work, and it is well worth trying. He has only issued up to Op 14 no 2. The rest will follow. The web site is 
http://www.pristineclassical.com/


----------



## misterjones

Worth checking out, though many blues aficionados dislike Pristine Classical's remastering intensely (to say the least). I have four Pristine Classical blues CDs. To my ears, two are very good and the other two aren't so good. I'd be interested in hearing how PC handles classical music, which, given its name, I assume is its specialty.


----------



## misterjones

I compared my EMI Shinseido with Pristine Classical (two movements only) and the Pristine Classical does seem to sound better. It has less surface noise and a more modern sound, which seems to come from enhancing the "lower end" of the recordings. I wonder, though, to what extent there is artificial enhancement to Schnabel's sound and whether this is even problematic. Theoretically we are hearing more of what we would have heard had we been standing in the recording studio when the sonatas were recorded. But that only can be a theory, of course. I got a similar feeling (though more pronounced) when I heard the Opus Kura version of Casals' Bach cello suites. The bass was so enhanced on the Opus Kura that, although the recording did sound more modern, it seemed to lack the distant but warm sound of the (newer) EMI version. I suppose the cost of a new set will keep me away (at least for the time being).


----------



## burns

I certainly agree with you about the Opus Kura version of Casals: it sounds very oddly tubby (in their MP3 sample). If you listen to the sample of Casals in the prelude of Suite No 1 on Pristine Classical it is a completely different sound, much more like a cello (although I never heard Casals play). I can only say that I am back to listening to Schnabel as a first choice, despite owning many other versions of each of these sonatas, since the new Pristine Classical versions appeared.


----------



## Amfibius

Re: which is the best mastering of Schnabel's Beethoven Sonatas. I can not take credit for this post. It was made by "George P" on Stevehoffman.tv forums - link to post.



George P said:


> Amfibius said:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by Amfibius View Post
> Eddie and George, I would be interested to hear what you think of the Schnabel. George, what is rmcr?
> 
> 
> 
> It's a Google group that is dedicated to discussing Classical Music Recordings: http://groups.google.com/group/rec....eethoven+Sonatas+Pearl+Naxos#0539b047d883b4cb Unfortunately, the discussions often devolve into arguments, name calling, etc. There are no moderators.
> 
> The above link (scroll to the top for the beginning of the discussion) will bring you to a discussion over at rmcr, one that included Seth Winner, who did the Schnabel transfers for Pearl, and Mark Obert-Thorn, who did the transfers for Naxos Historical.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Could you please repost your impressions here? I have the complete set on EMI - bought in 1992, and has endured multiple playings since. I need to replace the set because it is so old and scratched that some discs are unplayable! Schnabel's Beethoven sonatas are still available on EMI, Naxos, and this Pristine Audio, which I have never heard of. Which is the one to get?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You can sample many of the various transfers here: http://www.mediafire.com/?lvppl6vj4omdj
> 
> I have assembled 60 second WAV samples of six of the transfers that have been made of the Schnabel sonatas. I prefer the Naxos. Thankfully, it's cheap and readily available in separate volumes (one per CD.)
> 
> I bought mine from MDT - http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/pages/...ew+DESC&bSortBy=DESC&serial=11080244915881970
Click to expand...

Make sure you follow the link to rmcr and read the discussion between Mark Obert-Thorn (who did the remastering for Naxos) and Seth Winner (who did the transfer for Pearl).


----------



## coffeetime

No debate anymore. pristineclassical.com just released in 2011 all Schnabel's Beethoven. Best of all worlds. Pearl had fidelity of piano but terrible hiss. EMI etc. reduced hiss but piano was tinny and wildly distorted w wow and flutter. So they took EMI's master (LP's) and got rid of wow, flutter, tinniness etc. Unbelievable. All available for download in diff. degrees of audio purity (24 bit...) but even standard mp3 is outstanding. Get Diabelli Variations and Bagatelles. Nobody can touch Schnabel's gems.


----------



## bigshot

My transfer of the Diabellis...
Http://www.vintageip.com/xfers/schnabeldiabellis.mp3

Someday, I'll get around to doing more. I've figured out the trick to eliminating the UK shellac "bacon crackle" without affecting the music. It took me a few hundred hours of experimenting.


----------



## Ukko

bigshot said:


> My transfer of the Diabellis...
> Http://www.vintageip.com/xfers/schnabeldiabellis.mp3
> 
> Someday, I'll get around to doing more. I've figured out the trick to eliminating the UK shellac "bacon crackle" without affecting the music. It took me a few hundred hours of experimenting.


If you would upload this in flac format, I wouldn't be overwhelmed by low bitrate lossy format prejudice.


----------



## powerbooks

Well, if you have some pennies to spare:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Beethoven..._shvl_album_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1341889135&sr=301-1









Not sure about the transfer, though!

PS. My 100th post.


----------



## bigshot

Hilltroll72 said:


> If you would upload this in flac format, I wouldn't be overwhelmed by low bitrate lossy format prejudice.


it was awfully nice of me to post a transfer that I spent hundreds of hours perfecting for free. It was also nice of me to provide it in the equivalent of 256 MP3 VBR. It sounds exactly like the master. Take the file, burn it to a CD and preend you paid fifteen bucks for it. Maybe that will make you feel better.


----------



## Ukko

Well, I guess you just ain't 'awfully nice' enough. Some of us high-falutin' folk are just persnickety.


----------



## bigshot

I live to serve.


----------



## staxomega

I have the Pearl set, I'm trying to decide if it's worth tracking down the Naxos CDs which aren't easy to find. Would someone mind uploading samples off them? Thank you.


----------



## bigshot

Naxos is pretty much always better than Pearl.


----------



## staxomega

bigshot said:


> Naxos is pretty much always better than Pearl.


I really like the tone of the piano on the Pearl, it's really just the surface noise that is distracting. And like I said in my post the Naxos discs are out of print and not easy to find, which is why a sample or two would help me out


----------



## Ukko

staxomega said:


> I really like the tone of the piano on the Pearl, it's really just the surface noise that is distracting. And like I said in my post the Naxos discs are out of print and not easy to find, which is why a sample or two would help me out


The noise reduction in the Naxos issue is not as intrusive as many previous attempts, mostly because the available technology was better. The Pearl has very little noise reduction, mostly just attempts at pop removal. The merits of the two issues are based on what the listener's brain can do. Much of that capability is learned. And the learning ain't easy.


----------



## DavidA

I have the EMI set of the Sonatas. The sound is primitive though listenable. the thing that strikes me about Schnabel's playing is that it idiosyncratic as if he is recreating the music. In this he appears far more like Glenn Gould than (say) Solomon. At best you could think it was Beethoven improvising. A disc to get is the Diabellis on Naxos. Fantastic! Perhaps the greatest performance on disc?


----------



## staxomega

Ukko said:


> The noise reduction in the Naxos issue is not as intrusive as many previous attempts, mostly because the available technology was better. The Pearl has very little noise reduction, mostly just attempts at pop removal. The merits of the two issues are based on what the listener's brain can do. Much of that capability is learned. And the learning ain't easy.


I'm a vinyl listener so surface noise isn't a big deal for me, however 78 surface noise is at a lower frequency and intrudes more on music frequencies. Once things get going I can filter it out.

Funny, but for pre war jazz and delta blues I prefer transfers that have no noise reduction whatsoever and I can mentally filter out any surface noise immediately.


----------

