# Slow Beethoven



## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

These are just personal thoughts, inspired in part by some of the comments on the Beethoven's Ninth thread. There is a way of conducting the slow movement, which I tend to refer to as >>generalization warning<< Germanic, that, in an attempt to imbue it with profundity, is slow and ponderous. This doesn't do it any favors (an example is the old Solti/CSO recording, which additionally London/Decca splurged over 4 LP sides). There's another, slightly faster way, which I tend to refer to as French, that makes it flow and take flight, that I think, judging from the whole rest of his output, is more what Beethoven meant (a good example is the old Munch/BSO recording, which has other good points, also).

My point is: slow Beethoven is _never_ ponderous. Even the Funeral March of the Eroica, the slow movements of the G major piano concerto, late quartets, late piano sonata. Even at his most static - the slow movement of the Hammerklavier sonata - the effect is ethereal (if the pianist trusts it). Bad or uninteresting slow Beethoven is the performer's fault, not Beethoven's.

(It can be argued that no composer writes music intended to be ponderous - but that's a different thread. )


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Simply your opinion. Slow Beethoven is often performed ponderously in my opinion: the second movement of the Seventh symphony, the second movement of the Pastoral symphony in so many deadly performances, and, yes, the second movement of the Eroica symphony, when interpreted with weak musical pulse and performed much too slowly.

The faults most likely are the conductors', but the performances are out there for all to hear.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Ethereal, not ponderous; that describes a successful performance. I think they can be played slowly as long as they reflect profundity over ponderousness. Those movements you speak of are meant to depict respite from conflict/tension as the two themes flow back and forth. 

In Solomon's recording of the slow movement of the Hammerklavier, the first time I heard it, it was so profound that at times I almost forgot to breathe. I love it when that happens.


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## lextune (Nov 25, 2016)

When Rachmaninoff was asked by a conductor to choose the tempo for the slow movement of his 2nd Concerto. He replied:
"Not too slow; I am not a Beethoven specialist."


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

hpowders said:


> Simply your opinion. Slow Beethoven is often performed ponderously in my opinion: the second movement of the Seventh symphony, the second movement of the Pastoral symphony in so many deadly performances, and, yes, the second movement of the Eroica symphony, when interpreted with weak musical pulse and performed much too slowly.
> 
> The faults most likely are the conductors', but the performances are out there for all to hear.


That's what I was trying to say (maybe unsuccessfully).


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

I'd agree with you, except I only heard recently Harnoncourt's old Eroica from the 80s where he tried to get close to Beethoven's ridiculously fast tempo markings as possible. It was pretty impressive..


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Tallisman said:


> I'd agree with you, except I only heard recently Harnoncourt's old Eroica from the 80s where he tried to get close to Beethoven's ridiculously fast tempo markings as possible. It was pretty impressive..


Scherchen did a fast Eroica zillions of years ago on Westminster that was also a surprisingly good performance that was not just fast for the sake of fast.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

for slow movements - momentum is crucial - the tempo itself is not so critical, as long as there is forward motion....it shouldn't plod, or be ponderous - I have a big problem with Teutonic conductors generally in Wagner and Bruckner with this - they are so determined to be "profound". that the music just bogs down - too logy and ponderous. 
Momentum is key - Reiner was a master at this - taking slow tempi, but making it move:

Prelude to Meistersinger I - wonderful recording - slow, grand, but it moves - truly Maestoso - "Majestic"....these guys know they are the big shots, important, and they are simply not in a rush, but they will get there in their own time...
also - "Bydlo" - the Ox-cart, From Pix @ Exhibition - big, slow - but with in inexorable momentum, slowly trudging ahead, inevitably to its goal...

One of the keys in moving a slow movement along is to feel the big note groupings - do not get bogged down in the sub-division...it must be rhythmically accurate, so the subdivision must always be conscious and accurate - but the big phrases, the long lines must be preserved - otherwise, it degenerates into a note-by-note, never-ending struggle


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The importance of tempo, in Beethoven or any other music, can be overestimated. If forward motion is maintained, if the rhythmic scansion feels organic and flexible rather than mechanical, if the phrases pulsate and sing and the "big line" is kept in view, then any tempo within reason can work. Whether it represents what the composer had in mind is another question, but a musical work once given to the world has a life of its own which composers know they must respect. I love to hear Beethoven played at tempos at least close to his metronome markings, but if a remarkable conductor such as Furtwangler can make a compelling case for a slower tempo, I'll gladly submit myself to a vision of the music no one could otherwise have imagined. Furtwangler's performance of Beethoven's 9th at the reopening of the Bayreuth Festival in 1951 remains for me a uniquely profound reading of the work, and its slow movement, very slow indeed, is a truly sublime "misinterpretation" we'd be poorer without.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

MarkW said:


> *Slow Beethoven *


Do you mean like a Beethoven _Presto_ or an _Allegro con brio _movement in a performance by Sergiu Celibidache?


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## mathisdermaler (Mar 29, 2017)

Tallisman said:


> I'd agree with you, except I only heard recently Harnoncourt's old Eroica from the 80s where he tried to get close to Beethoven's ridiculously fast tempo markings as possible. It was pretty impressive..


Well, I just found my new favorite Ero(t)ica!


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

Heck148 said:


> One of the keys in moving a slow movement along is to feel the big note groupings - do not get bogged down in the sub-division...it must be rhythmically accurate, so the subdivision must always be conscious and accurate - but the big phrases, the long lines must be preserved - otherwise, it degenerates into a note-by-note, never-ending struggle


Yes, yes, yes. I was trying to figure out a way to say exactly this, then I read your post and there it is.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

Tallisman said:


> I'd agree with you, except I only heard recently Harnoncourt's old Eroica from the 80s where he tried to get close to Beethoven's ridiculously fast tempo markings as possible. It was pretty impressive..


Wow, that is impressive. Stunning.


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