# What opera parts might Adele sing?



## Grizzled Ghost (Jun 10, 2015)

I think most people would agree that Adele has a fine voice, but she clearly is not a soprano. I guess that makes her an alto. Classical music seems to focus on sopranos, so I'm wondering what 
opera roles would be a good fit for Adele's voice.

This is a bit of a mischievous (and noobie!) question, but I am genuinely interested in your answers. 

Thanks.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

None! But it would be fun to hear her try 

Does she have a fine voice? A great voice? I'm not hearing it, even when compared to other pop and soul divas. Let's see what others say. 

Singers aren't born as either pop or opera. It's quite possible that many pop singers could sing opera well, but they'd have to commit to training to properly carry it off.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Don Fatale said:


> Does she have a fine voice? A great voice? I'm not hearing it, even when compared to other pop and soul divas. Let's see what others say.


Well there may be pop singers with finer vocal material. but she certainly has a way with a lyric and a gift for communication, which is the mark of _all_ my favourite singers, whether they sing classical or pop music. Singing comes as naturally to her as speaking. This could be one of the reasons for her success, that and the fact that she knows how to write a good tune.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

GregMitchell said:


> Well there may be pop singers with finer vocal material. but she certainly has a way with a lyric and a gift for communication, which is the mark of _all_ my favourite singers, whether they sing classical or pop music. Singing comes as naturally to her as speaking. This could be one of the reasons for her success, that and the fact that *she knows how to write a good tune.*


So possibly would be good for bel canto or Verdi as she could compose her own cadenzas!

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Adele...Adele...

Well, well!

Who the hell

Is this Adele?


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

It is with some reluctance that I post this for Woodduck's 'benefit', and in no way does those constitute an endorsement from me.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Don Fatale said:


> Singers aren't born as either pop or opera. It's quite possible that many pop singers could sing opera well, but they'd have to commit to training to properly carry it off.


And that is something that a lot of so-called crossover singers have not yet figured out.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

She is an alto, but appears to have a very limited range. Perhaps she could do Handel oratorio music with some training. I like her better than most female vocalists today but not as much as stars of yesteryear: Patsy Cline, Jo Stafford, Dionne Warwick, early Streisand, early Aretha, Gladys Knight, Edie Gorme', Ella, Donna Summer. Actually Summer started out in light opera and could easily have sung opera with her range up to high C if she had had studied with a good teacher.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Adele...Adele...
> 
> Well, well!
> 
> ...


Hear, hear, all air brushed and publicity , as the Germans say: Zum Kotsen


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Don Fatale said:


> It is with some reluctance that I post this for Woodduck's 'benefit', and in no way does those constitute an endorsement from me.


Well.

Swell. ...........


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## Grizzled Ghost (Jun 10, 2015)

Pugg said:


> Hear, hear, all air brushed and publicity , as the Germans say: Zum Kotsen


I think she got all the air brushing and publicity because her first two albums sold a gajillion copies. This third one is selling even faster. Not bad for a 19-, then 21-, and now 25-year-old.

I bet she sells a lot more albums this year than all classical and opera performers combined. Yikes!

I'm not a particular fan of Adele; I just think it's strange that opera and classical music seems to neglect voices like hers. A pity, really.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

She might handle very nicely the tessitura of the emperor in Turandot.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> She is an alto, but appears to have a very limited range. Perhaps she could do Handel oratorio music with some training. I like her better than most female vocalists today but not as much as stars of yesteryear: Patsy Cline, Jo Stafford, Dionne Warwick, early Streisand, early Aretha, Gladys Knight, Edie Gorme', Ella, Donna Summer. Actually Summer started out in light opera and could easily have sung opera with her range up to high C if she had had studied with a good teacher.


Donna Summer's timbre reminds me of something like a lighter Shirley Verrett


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Donna Summer's timbre reminds me of something like a lighter Shirley Verrett


Would you agree she's a classic example of DiscoDiva fach? :devil:


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Well, in order to sing an opera part in a live production, in a theater, a singer needs a lot of training. Arguably the most important part of this training, is to learn how to project your voice, and forget singing to a microphone. I'm not familiar with Ms. Adele's background, but probably she haven't done that, as this is a rather useless skill for a pop singer. Then, in order to be a really good opera singer, you need to master other things, of course, but this is the basics. If you can't project your voice, you can't sing opera.

It's improbable to move from singing popular songs to sing opera in these days, but by no means impossible, with the right training. In the distant past, before the microphone, it was somewhat easier, as even the vaudeville singers needed to project their voices. One of the more successful sopranos of all times, Rosa Ponselle, started as a vaudeville singer, and in just a few months was able to sing her first opera at the MET, "La Forza del destino", alongside Enrico Caruso. She was able to sing Leonora this way, in 1918, almost freshly out of the vaudeville circuit:






However, given the success of Ms. Adele singing her pop repertoire, I think it's extremely unlikely she will sing any other thing in the foreseeable future.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I like her better than most female vocalists today but not as much as stars of yesteryear [...] early Streisand


Now you're talking! Streisand's "crossover" album _Classical Barbra_ contains one of my favourite renditions of Schumann's _Mondnacht_; indeed, the whole CD is as impressive as it is beautiful.

As to Adele, her voice perhaps is a little too "smoky" to sing opera.


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## Grizzled Ghost (Jun 10, 2015)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> As to Adele, her voice perhaps is a little too "smoky" to sing opera.


I guess I am very curious why opera seems to avoid "smoky" women's voices in general. To me, sopranos sound fine, but they are not the end-all-be-all of female singing in my book. The success of artists like Adele for example suggests that other voices can sound beautiful too.

I also understand the notion that opera singers must be able to project to be able to perform well on-stage. But classical music in other areas has embraced a broader dynamic range. Plus with new technology like the microphone and recorded performances there are other ways to accommodate a softer voice. Not all singers need to belt it out all the time.

It seems to me that opera and maybe classical music in general got locked into one specific type of female voice at an early stage, and really focused on and elevated that type of singing until it became a highly stylized and maybe a little bit exaggerated way of singing. But in so doing it has wandered some distance away from other natural singing styles. Maybe a bit like how the traditions of kabuki theatre accumulated over time, though less extreme.

When I hear artists like Adele, it makes me think how curious it is that opera moved as far away as it did from more natural singing styles. And I wonder what opera exists out there for other types of singers.

I don't mean to be obnoxious and clearly I have a lot to learn. Just looking for thoughts.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Grizzled Ghost said:


> When I hear artists like Adele, it makes me think how curious it is that opera moved as far away as it did from more natural singing styles. And I wonder what opera exists out there for other types of singers.


I guess the answer is _musical theatre_, where the vocal styles range between opera and pop.


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## Guest (Dec 11, 2015)

I hope that Adele never tries to be a classical singer.I have an example of what in my opinion just proves my point.After 50 seconds he starts with something..........is it self indulgence?


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

it's a mistake to classify a female singer without hearing a significant amount of head register. Renee Fleming and Leontyne Price sound like friggin contraltos if all you listen to is the chest register
PS: if I had to guess though, maybe spinto soprano or lyric mezzo


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## Grizzled Ghost (Jun 10, 2015)

*Famous alto opera singers?*

I thought of another way of finding opera music parts written for non-sopranos. Can someone, anyone, list some famous opera (or lieder) singers who are altos? That way I can just search for their music and get a better feel for the range of female voices included in classical music and opera.

Also, would it be fair to say that the large majority of famous female opera singers are sopranos? The ones I hear most often seem to be, but I'm no expert.

Oddly enough, when I look at my collection of non-classical music, I think only maybe 10% or so of my favorite female singers are sopranos. The divergence between opera and pop in this respect seems strange to me.

Here to learn. Thanks for your replies.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

traverso said:


> I hope that Adele never tries to be a classical singer.I have an example of what in my opinion just proves my point.After 50 seconds he starts with something..........is it self indulgence?


I think Sting's being quite sincere, here, but there are clearly issues! I suspect that problem lies in the "mid-Atlantic" accent Sting affects when he sings - it just sounds "wrong" in any idiom other than rock/pop. The frustrating thing is the fact that his speaking voice is very nicely modulated, and if he'd only sing Dowland in his "normal" accent it would sound so much better.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Hmmm... Countess of Aremberg in Verdi's Don Carlo is a good one for her, I think


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Grizzled Ghost said:


> I guess I am very curious why opera seems to avoid "smoky" women's voices in general. To me, sopranos sound fine, but they are not the end-all-be-all of female singing in my book. The success of artists like Adele for example suggests that other voices can sound beautiful too.
> 
> I also understand the notion that opera singers must be able to project to be able to perform well on-stage. But classical music in other areas has embraced a broader dynamic range. Plus with new technology like the microphone and recorded performances there are other ways to accommodate a softer voice. Not all singers need to belt it out all the time.
> 
> ...


Opera singers, and classical singers in general, have a wider variety of sound (timbre) than you may realize. The requirements of classical singing are not really, or not mainly, for a particular sound quality. Actually they are identical to the requirements of instrumentalists that play classical music with respect to range (high to low), control of dynamics (soft to loud), and flexiblity (rapid movement). The voice is an instrument, classical music requires maximal development of technical skills in both instruments and voices, and singers have to train their voices to do all the things that instrumentalists do as effectively as possible. The result is often called "unnatural," but the fact is that making music at all is unnatural! Different styles of music around the world have developed different ways of singing, all of which are going to sound natural to people in certain cultures or subcultures and unnatural to others. "Naturalness" has to be judged in terms of the style and requirements of the music being sung.

Classical music in the Western world became more complex as time passed. In ancient times, and probably up until the Renaissance, we can surmise that singing styles had more in common with what we hear in popular music, for the simple reason that simpler music is easier to sing. By the Baroque, classical music had developed into something complex that came to require complex skills in instrumentalists and equivalent skills in singers, who had to develop powerful breath control, steadiness of pitch, the ability to move gradually and evenly between volume levels, and speed in moving from note to note. Baroque vocal music can be fiendishly difficult; it's not for amateurs! The increasing size of performance venues also contributed to the need for sheer volume.

If a singer can meet the technical requirements for classical music as we know it, the timbre of the voice (smoky, brilliant, flute-like, etc.) doesn't matter much except with regard to the tastes of listeners (i.e. who audiences enjoy and will pay to listen to). The more classical singers you listen to the more you'll appreciate how radically different voices can sound and still meet the stylistic and technical requirements of the music. The reason most popular singers are unsuited to singing opera has less to do with their sound quality than with what they can make their voices do to meet the technical demands of operatic music. That's not to say that all opera singers meet those technical demands well, though! A lot of them seem to think that being heard in the back row of a 2000-seat theater is the main thing required of them, and that, unfortunately, gives the public a distorted view of what classical singing can really be.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Grizzled Ghost said:


> I thought of another way of finding opera music parts written for non-sopranos. Can someone, anyone, list some famous opera (or lieder) singers who are altos? That way I can just search for their music and get a better feel for the range of female voices included in classical music and opera.
> 
> Also, would it be fair to say that the large majority of famous female opera singers are sopranos? The ones I hear most often seem to be, but I'm no expert.
> 
> ...


Apart from the general points about what operatic technique is for made by Wooduck above here is a list of mezzos and contraltos to show how opera isn't only for sopranos:

Maria Malibran
Clara Butt
Ernestine Schumann-Heink
Bruna Castagna
Marion Telva
Ebe Stignani
Claramae Turner
Marian Anderson
Kerstin Thorborg
Kathleen Ferrier
Giulietta Simionato
Fedora Barbieri
Christa Ludwig
Maria von Ilosvay
Ira Malaniuk
Regine Crespin
Regina Resnik
Marilyn Horne
Fiorenza Cossotto
Shirley Verrett
Hougette Tourangeau
Federica von Stade
Teresa Berganza
Ann Murray
Agnes Baltsa
Jennifer Larmore
Olga Borodina
Waltraud Meier
Cecilia Bartoli
Elina Garanca
Joyce DiDonato

There are many, many others but a search for these on YouTube will perhaps give you an idea of roles that Adele could sing if she were to train to become an opera singer.

N.


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## Grizzled Ghost (Jun 10, 2015)

^^^ Which of the above are contraltos? No need to identify all of them, but maybe two or three of the more popular/famous/whatever to help me on my way.

I did a wiki search on the last five names (lazy, I know) and they were all mezzo-sopranos, not altos or contraltos.

Update: found one! Kathleen Ferrier.

Not exactly a household name, but at least it's a start. Thanks for that and any others.

Update #2: wikipedia also says that true contraltos are very rare. I was assuming that contralto corresponds to alto. My impression from my days in chorus was that girls/women split fairly evenly between sopranos and altos, so maybe alto corresponds to mezzo?


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Contraltos:
Marian Anderson
Ernestine Schumann-Heink
Marilyn Horne
Ewa Podles

Kathleen Ferrier is sometimes classified as a contralto.

Perhaps listen to "Re dell'abiso affettati" from Un Ballo in Maschera on YouTube as well as listening to the above.

N.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Grizzled Ghost said:


> Update: found one! Kathleen Ferrier.
> 
> Not exactly a household name, but at least it's a start.


A very good start. She certainly is (I don't need to say _was_) a household name in the field of classical music and opera. Listen to her performances and you'll understand why.


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## Grizzled Ghost (Jun 10, 2015)

More wiki fun:

Wiki seems to have 892 pages for operatic sopranos, 327 mezzo-sopranos, and just 117 contraltos.

Accordingly, I'm guessing most operatic roles are written for sopranos, with a healthy fraction for mezzos, and relatively few roles for contraltos (witches, bitches, or britches?).

Why the focus on sopranos? I don't think pop or jazz puts such a heavy emphasis on sopranos. In my personal collection of non-classical music I'm guessing up to 75% of the female singers represented are not sopranos (as far as I know).

And also, are mezzos sopranos or altos? Or are opera singers' vocal ranges are wide enough that it's a false dichotomy?

Update #3: Sampled some Kathleen Ferrier from "Kathleen Ferrier - A Tribute" from Decca. On about half of the songs she is singing some pretty darn high notes. Which makes me think these songs were written for sopranos. 

Now I'm really confused. Maybe opera composers just hate altos? I'm about ready to give up.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

People like high voices, male and female. They're exciting, they stand out, and among males they're rarer (I don't know about females). In opera, they suggest youth, and usually the romantic couples are young, so they get to be the stars. Lower voices more often get to play older folks or character parts. It's unfair, but that's life.


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## Grizzled Ghost (Jun 10, 2015)

^^^ That's life within the realm of operatic traditions. I doubt it applies to other forms of music, such as pop, jazz, blues, world, etc. I'm trying to clarify and understand the apparent discrepancy here.

It's not a question of pop singers trying their hands at opera and failing laughably; it's more a question of opera as a genre depriving itself of a wider range of vocal possibilities.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Grizzled Ghost said:


> ^^^ That's life within the realm of operatic traditions. I'm not sure it applies to other forms of music, such as pop, jazz, blues, world, etc. I'm trying to clarify and understand the apparent discrepancy here.


Well, as I say, in opera you're playing a character, and its just a fact that younger people have higher voices. It sounds a little funny if the young lover is a bass and his old father is a tenor, unless there's a specific character type intended. Also, if a bunch of characters are singing in an ensemble, the high voices are going to be most audible; melody is generally in the top voice, with harmony underneath. So high voices tend to be the "stars" even in instrumental music. They are also popular because singing well in higher ranges is a feat; people are impressed when it's well done. Some opera lovers make an absolute fetish out of high notes.

Popular music is centered on the singer, the words are generally paramount, and words are easier to get across in the lower, speaking range of a singer's voice (notice that pop songs have a narrow pitch range). Female voices in pop and jazz have always been lower because that's the speaking range of the female voice, its easier to sing there, and easier to make words clear. In men's voices the range depends on the style, but the same considerations apply, and naturally high men's voices are uncommon. But I don't notice any male pop singers with deep voices either nowadays. The only place they seem to have survived is in country music.

I don't know what vocal ranges are most popular in African or Asian cultures.


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

In pop music the ranges males and females sing are actually quite close to each other. Females do not really use their extreme potential range very much (How often you hear C6's? A5's? Even G5's?), while males often sing at the upper extreme of their range. Not exactly representative of "typical pop music", but in certain genres of rock and metal males often go well above the normal operatic tenor range (E5 and above), even without falsetto (I think).


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Grizzled Ghost said:


> More wiki fun:
> 
> Wiki seems to have 892 pages for operatic sopranos, 327 mezzo-sopranos, and just 117 contraltos.
> 
> ...


If you were to take 1338 females and train them to sing opera, you would probably find that about 892 are sopranos 327 mezzos and 117 contraltos. Sopranos are the most common voice type and therefore it's not surprising that composers have written so many roles for them.

Kathleen Ferrier didn't sing music written for soprano, but she could sing higher than most pop singers can and/or have to. One of the interesting things about naturally amplified singing is that the muscles needed to create a sound that carries also cause a singer's range to become substantially bigger. Whereas pop singers who have no need to work certain muscles end up singing within a narrow range, is it any surprise that composers have used the most of singers who can produce a wider range of notes?

What are your views on the roles written for male voices? Are there too many bass roles? Or does the tenor voice seem unnaturally high? Don't give up, there is so much more to discover from classical singing.

N.

P.S. It's always annoyed me that there aren't more music theatre roles for basses!


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## Grizzled Ghost (Jun 10, 2015)

Here's what I've learned from comments above and wikipedia:
1. the choral classification for female parts is soprano and alto, but this really refers to the parts rather than the singers
2. the classical classification for female voices is soprano, mezzo, and contralto
3. in the general population, most voices fall in the middle; but can be shifted somewhat through training
4. amongst opera singers, there are far more sopranos than contraltos or even mezzos

Here's what I tentatively believe:
a. classical music and opera gravitate heavily toward soprano singers and parts for sopranos
b. non-classical music focuses more on the lower vocal ranges, including a disproportionate number of contralto singers

I note also that within classical music, even contraltos like Kathleen Ferrier are singing a lot of high notes. Conversely, within non-classical music, even supposed sopranos, like Jewel or Bjork, are singing a lot of lower notes. There are not too many non-classical sopranos who mostly sing high notes (Kate Bush and Mylene Farmer come to mind). And for every female vocalist who generally sings high there's at least one who generally sings low (e.g. Adele, Annie Lennox).

I find this discrepancy between classical and non-classical very strange. At a minimum, I would expect more recent classical and opera works to include more parts for non-sopranos and/or at lower vocal ranges. 

Why this bias in classical? Dunno. Maybe early Christian churches felt that high-pitched voices were more pure and saintly, whereas lower-pitched voices were considered too earthy. Who knows. 

I have no opinions on or objections to the distribution of male voices in classical and opera by the way. Shame about the castrati though. My computer tells me that the practice of castration wasn't banned until 1903! Yikes!

More thoughts?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Donna Summer's timbre reminds me of something like a lighter Shirley Verrett


Well, yes. She had a darker, smokey voice down low. Her top was better than almost any pop singer except for maybe Whitney Houston and it was not disjointed from the rest like most. Even though Streisand is famed for her high notes, in her duet with Barbara it was Donna who sang the high notes. She sang a number of F's, which is high for pop songs. Pop songs in general have much more limited range today than yester years. I listened to the underrated Edyie Gorme' sing a Christmas song yesterday and no pop song today would require such legato singing and extended high notes. The main disappointment I get from most pop music, except for Streisand, is that they so often take a breath when they have to rather than where the phrase calls for it. Even Ella fails at this, and she was in other ways fabulous beyond words. Streisand had the breath control of someone trained in classical technique. Today songs are all fashioned for drunks to belt out in karaoke.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

I think Woodduck offered a good explanation above; music needs space, if everyone is singing in the same register it sounds more muddled. But if there's a bass, a tenor, and a soprano you can hear each line much more clearly. You'll note that a secondary female role is often a mezzo or contralto, to provide at least some space for both them and the soprano to sing together. Of course a skilled composer can work with anything, and often do throughout the length of an opera.

But typically you want some space for important moments. The end of _Der Rosenkavalier_ is a notable exception, the bass is run off leaving two sopranos and a mezzo to finish things off.

In most pop/rock arrangements generally most space can be made in the middle registers. Cymbals, for example, are much more prominent in pop/rock. Soaring over everyone (including an orchestra) with a powerful soprano voice singing in her upper register isn't necessary.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

If there is indeed some interest on how female voices are managed in contemporary opera, this is really a tour de force:










Scored for 3 sopranos and 2 mezzos. No male voices. 

However, female roles in contemporary opera are not at all limited to sopranos, they include all fachs, even countertenors are sometimes used to sing females, in a kind of reversal of the traditional 19th century trouser roles (for instance, in the very interesting "Three Sisters", by Peter Eötvös. Or the leading role of Petitgirard's "Merrick", that can be sung either by a contralto or a countertenor).

In contemporary opera, also the microphone is used sometimes, as in the very succesful "Doctor Atomic", by John Adams. By the way, the leading female roles of this opera are normally sung by a mezzo (Kitty), and a contralto (Pasqualita).

However, arguably the finest operas of the last 15 years, "L'amour de loin" and "Written on Skin" are using sopranos for the female leading roles (Clémence and Agnès)... but in the former a mezzo is singing a male role (the Pilgrim)...

Truth is, in contemporary opera there are not really patterns on how to distribute the roles, it depends on each composer, on each piece. If anything, the fach actually less used than in the Romantic period, is the tenor.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Grizzled Ghost said:


> Here's what I've learned from comments above and wikipedia:
> 1. the choral classification for female parts is soprano and alto, but this really refers to the parts rather than the singers
> 2. the classical classification for female voices is soprano, mezzo, and contralto
> 3. in the general population, most voices fall in the middle; but can be shifted somewhat through training
> ...


Honestly, the only thing I find baffling about this matter is why it still baffles you. First of all, classical music is no more "biased" in favor of sopranos than pop music is "biased" against them. Bias is an odd word to use to describe difference.

You are not distinguishing opera from classical music in general. Opera, being a form of drama, favors sopranos for reasons already stated. But non-operatic classical works make fairly equal use of the various vocal ranges, with the qualifying factor that the top "voice" in the harmonic texture of classical music tends to carry the main melody and therefore requires a high voice to sing it. This simple fact of musical structure, based on the way humans hear, makes the soprano voice more prominent in musical textures than the alto.

Besides the differences in the way classical and popular music is structured, which I and mountmccabe have discussed, there is the effect of vocal training on vocal range, which The Conte mentions. These two factors work together: classical music's structure requires that there be voices capable of singing high, vocal training brings this about, and composers make use of the capabilities of trained singers to encompass a wide range of pitch. But, as I say, outside of opera the "bias" toward high voices you note is minor, exactly what the above factors would lead you to expect. In classical vocal works such as masses and song cycles, sopranos get no special privileges. Some of the most beautiful and celebrated works for solo voice and orchestra - try Brahms's _Alto Rhapsody_ and Mahler's _Das Lied von der Erde_ - call for a low female voice.

There was a time, within the lifetimes of many of us, when the structure, and therefore the vocal requirements, of popular music were a lot closer to those of classical music than they are now. Popular singing technique was very much like classical singing technique, and if you go back far enough there was essentially no difference at all. I think the rise of jazz was the main factor in changing the nature of popular music: its musical texture, its sensibility, and the way in which it's sung.


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## Grizzled Ghost (Jun 10, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Some of the most beautiful and celebrated works for solo voice and orchestra - try Brahms's _Alto Rhapsody_ and Mahler's _Das Lied von der Erde_ - call for a low female voice.


Good counter-examples. I was thinking more of my collection of french lieder (Chants d'Auvergne, etc) which seem to be written exclusively for soprano voices. Nevertheless, I still think most non-opera classical female vocal parts are written for sopranos, at least amongst the romantic period classical music with which I am most familiar.

I mostly agree with structural arguments for favoring soprano parts − i.e. spreading out the notes. But such arguments do not exclude (and would be consistent with) bias arising from tradition. I use "bias" by the way in the sense of unexpected statistical frequency rather than prejudice.

To me, the disproportionate prevalence of sopranos in classical and opera is as plain as day; and it is equally plain that sopranos (or at least the persistent singing of high notes) are much less common in non-classical music. I also would argue that pop music is biased toward contraltos, particularly if we heed the claim that true contraltos represent just 1% of the population.

Moreover, I would argue that pop music offers a more unbiased representation of the distribution of "natural" vocal ranges amongst the female population as a whole, for the simple reason that most pop singers sing whatever they want with very little training, whereas training and traditional repertoire are vastly more important in classical and opera. Put crudely, pop singers sing whatever comes naturally, for better or worse.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Grizzled Ghost said:


> If I had to guess whether classical or pop music offered a more unbiased representation of the distribution of "natural" vocal ranges amongst the female population as a whole, I would say pop, for the simple reason that* most pop singers sing whatever they want with very little training*, whereas training and repertoire are far more important in classical and opera.


True. Singing at the top of your range, much less trying to expand it, takes work. Why bother?


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## Grizzled Ghost (Jun 10, 2015)

Why indeed. Some listeners find extended high soprano singing cloying. Meanwhile, singers like Adele move millions to tears by belting out those low notes. Even singers like Dido and Sheryl Crowe -- both of whom I think have unusually narrow vocal ranges − attract large followings. They must be doing something right.

When I started this thread I was hoping to find more examples of classical music and opera incorporating that "something" into the repertoire. Now I think maybe classical traditions and popular styles just don't mix very well − a bit like oil and water. Pop singers typically fail spectacularly when they try to sing opera, and classical singers usually sound funny when they try to sing pop. 

Maybe some recent efforts to blend the two have been more successful than I realize. Bolcom? Golijov? Adams? I'm not sure − I don't listen as often as I should to newer classical or opera compositions. Maybe I need to get out more.

Oh well. I guess Adele will just have to keep singing her pop songs.


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## Antony (Nov 4, 2013)

Mr.Grizzled Ghost. Opera isn't -bias- against anyone who, technically, can't sing a line in classical singing structure. Not only opera, Anyone who wants to sing, melodiously a song, can take singing classes. I think it's the same prerequisite with pop, jazz, rap, hip hop... Don't you think? Vocal music needs works, hard works. And classical singing ,well, requires works much harder.

Do you really think Miss Adele didn't take some singing classes? and she can sing, after you, to the point to be able to ...hypnotize you until the point to try to argue a ...place for her in opera? I don't know technical aspects as much as esteemed TC betters here, but well, as it is, what role Adele can aspire to play ...in Opera if she can't sing a line after the classical structure of singing Art?

However, Pop singers aren't, by no means, ...lower than any opera singers. Do you really think a cabaret singer like Edith Piaf was, is, not highly respected by her counterparts in classic singing school? How do you compare Miss Adele with Edith Piaf?

Art has no price tag. It can worth a penny as it can worth ....millions bucks.of course money is important. But I think singers would be very happy to receive warm applauds from audience much more than their wages. It's for them, the most precious gift they hope to receive in practicing their works. And if they love their works, they put in there their heart, their feelings....they don't think for a second the price tag of their works, Mr Grizzled Ghost.

Opera is not bias against Adele or anyone else. As long as Adele or anyone else can sing a classical structure line required in classical singing Art, she/ they can aspire to play a role in opera one day...if they can beat their counterparts. As everyone know , even The greatest opera singers all worked very hard. Opera was, is, not written for any greatest opera singers, let alone Miss Adele, Mr Grizzled Ghost. It's thru hardworking in classical singing art combing touching hearts of audience that every great opera singers attend their -great- level. 

As you are so, acquired, to find a role for Adele's voice in Opera. In which role do you see her voice can play? Me, as her voice is right now, I would like very much to see her as -the phantom- in the phantom of the Opera. Again, miss Adele will have to convince the selection committee. Even miss Emmy Rossum had to convince Lloyd Weber to have the role of Christine, you see. 

Or you can, hopefully, write an opera especially for Adele....if you satisfy the prerequisites to write one. It's not an easy job however. Even Brahms couldn't write one, And Beethoven could only write one. But who know where your passions can drive you, you know, Mr Grizzled Ghost? 

Wish you best of lucks.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Grizzled Ghost said:


> most pop singers sing whatever they want with very little training, whereas training and traditional repertoire are vastly more important in classical and opera. Put crudely, pop singers sing whatever comes naturally, for better or worse.


Decidedly for the worse, IMHO. The perverse thing about pop singing is that just about everybody can do it almost as well as the guys/girls in front of the (sonically-manipulated) microphones, and most of us all know ordinary people who have much better voices than many of the "stars". It's ultra-annoying that some of those stars can earn so much money in such a short time, but musicians who have trained hard to master a far more challenging repertoire struggle to get by. The boy-band _One Dimension_ only emerged in 2010 (on the X Factor, or something), and yet by 2014 one of them had made so much cash that he bought himself a 1st Division English football team at the age of 22! Something has gone badly wrong with our sense of values.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Grizzled Ghost said:


> Why indeed. Some listeners find extended high soprano singing cloying. Meanwhile, singers like Adele move millions to tears by belting out those low notes. Even singers like Dido and Sheryl Crowe -- both of whom I think have unusually narrow vocal ranges − attract large followings. They must be doing something right.
> 
> When I started this thread I was hoping to find more examples of classical music and opera incorporating that "something" into the repertoire. Now I think maybe classical traditions and popular styles just don't mix very well − a bit like oil and water. Pop singers typically fail spectacularly when they try to sing opera, and classical singers usually sound funny when they try to sing pop.


Plenty of pop singers get attention for singing high notes. Mariah Carey, Christina Aguilera, Tina Turner, and Kelly Clarkson all sing higher than almost all soprano roles, in addition to singing lower than almost all contralto roles. That doesn't mean any of them could - without further training - sing those operatic roles, of course, because it's not just about the notes. It's not reasonable to compare vocal ranges across such varied styles.

But you're right, even though there are exceptions, having a wide range or high notes isn't necessary for pop singers. There's a lot I'm listening for when I listen to pop/rock beyond the vocals. And when the vocals are the focus I want an interesting voices and interesting vocal lines, not necessarily technical brilliance. Though of course even opera is not only about technical brilliance, but communicating.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Decidedly for the worse, IMHO. The perverse thing about pop singing is that just about everybody can do it almost as well as the guys/girls in front of the (sonically-manipulated) microphones, and most of us all know ordinary people who have much better voices than many of the "stars". It's ultra-annoying that some of those stars can earn so much money in such a short time, but musicians who have trained hard to master a far more challenging repertoire struggle to get by. The boy-band _One Dimension_ only emerged in 2010 (on the X Factor, or something), and yet by 2014 one of them had made so much cash that he bought himself a 1st Division English football team at the age of 22! Something has gone badly wrong with our sense of values.


Louis Tomlinson's bid to buy the Doncaster Rovers was unsuccessful because he couldn't raise enough money. Also he bid for them after they had been relegated from the First Division (currently League Championship) to League One. Clearly One Direction needs to make more money!


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Grizzled Ghost said:


> Here's what I've learned from comments above and wikipedia:
> 1. the choral classification for female parts is soprano and alto, but this really refers to the parts rather than the singers


Rubbish! 
Both male and female voices divide into high and low (or even better high, medium and low). I have been in about 12 - 15 different choirs and I never came across 1st sopranos (those who took the top line in an eight part chorus) who could sing
the 2nd alto line and vice versa. I am not sure how you came to this conclusion, but it is erroneous.



Grizzled Ghost said:


> 2. the classical classification for female voices is soprano, mezzo, and contralto


Good stuff.



Grizzled Ghost said:


> 3. in the general population, most voices fall in the middle; but can be shifted somewhat through training


Wrong again!  Most females are sopranos, most males baritones, in fact that is why some people refer to mezzos and tenors as _unnatural_ voices. Operatic technique (which is a form of natural amplification (so the equivalent of having a microphone for a pop singer)) adds notes to a singers range noticeably at the top, but also at the bottom, however a non trained soprano will still have a range that is higher than the range of a non-trained contralto, just as an operatic contralto will not be able to sing as high as a trained soprano.



Grizzled Ghost said:


> 4. amongst opera singers, there are far more sopranos than contraltos or even mezzos


Because amongst women there are far more sopranos.



Grizzled Ghost said:


> Here's what I tentatively believe:
> a. classical music and opera gravitate heavily toward soprano singers and parts for sopranos
> b. non-classical music focuses more on the lower vocal ranges, including a disproportionate number of contralto singers
> 
> ...


Interesting, but are you sure about your beliefs? Are you going by ear or do you actually know the ranges and the actual notes sung by the singers you are listening to? When somebody is able to project their sound to the back row of the top tier of a ~3,000 seater theatre without a microphone their voice will have quillo (that is a bright ring), this could make the voice sound higher than it is actually singing. Whereas singers who are making all their sound in the throat without any sort of chest or head resonance, because they have a microphone and speaker system to project their sound for them will probably sound as if they are singing in a lower range.



Grizzled Ghost said:


> Why this bias in classical? Dunno. Maybe early Christian churches felt that high-pitched voices were more pure and saintly, whereas lower-pitched voices were considered too earthy. Who knows.
> 
> I have no opinions on or objections to the distribution of male voices in classical and opera by the way. Shame about the castrati though. My computer tells me that the practice of castration wasn't banned until 1903! Yikes!
> 
> More thoughts?


I would continue listening, but also researching the actual notes and pitches at which people are singing at. You've also mentioned the song repertoire, do you know that art song and lieder can be sung by any classical singer? They are generally transposed so that any voice type can sing them.

Enjoy the journey of discovery that awaits you.

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Decidedly for the worse, IMHO. The perverse thing about pop singing is that just about everybody can do it almost as well as the guys/girls in front of the (sonically-manipulated) microphones, and most of us all know ordinary people who have much better voices than many of the "stars".


If we are going to deconstruct myths about operatic singing, then we should do the same with prejudice against pop singing. Pop singers may use a microphone, whereas opera singers learn to amplify their voices naturally. However, that doesn't mean that pop singers (or their fans) are tone deaf. Pop singers still need to sing in tune, and that's not something that everybody can do. Otherwise we would still be listening to Milli Vanilli!

N.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

schigolch said:


> Truth is, in contemporary opera there are not really patterns on how to distribute the roles, it depends on each composer, on each piece. If anything, the fach actually less used than in the Romantic period, is the tenor.


In contemporary opera there is one factor that leads to an abundance of soprano roles, i.e. Barbara Hannigan. She loves to sing contemporary works and composers love to write for her. She has done 75 premiers and counting.


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## Grizzled Ghost (Jun 10, 2015)

^^^ Wow! That's impressive! And I'd never even heard of her. I'm such a noob. 

I'm gonna have to check out this "Written on Skin" thingy. Do I need the DVD or would a CD suffice?


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

mountmccabe said:


> Louis Tomlinson's bid to buy the Doncaster Rovers was unsuccessful because he couldn't raise enough money.


I didn't know that his bid had failed, so I stand corrected. However, I find it obscene that a young kid with an average talent should be in a position to even consider doing so.


> Clearly One Direction needs to make more money!


I think they'll scrape by, somehow. According to _Forbes_, they've made over $200 million between them since June 2013! Appalling.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

The Conte said:


> If we are going to deconstruct myths about operatic singing, then we should do the same with prejudice against pop singing.


I'm not prejudiced against pop singing - I admire a number of pop/rock artists and groups. What I dislike is the phenomenon of very ordinary acts being able to make obscene amounts of money in a short space of time, whilst infinitely more capable artists struggle.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

The Conte said:


> If you were to take 1338 females and train them to sing opera, you would probably find that about 892 are sopranos 327 mezzos and 117 contraltos. Sopranos are the most common voice type and therefore it's not surprising that composers have written so many roles for them.
> 
> Kathleen Ferrier didn't sing music written for soprano, but she could sing higher than most pop singers can and/or have to. One of the interesting things about naturally amplified singing is that the muscles needed to create a sound that carries also cause a singer's range to become substantially bigger. Whereas pop singers who have no need to work certain muscles end up singing within a narrow range, is it any surprise that composers have used the most of singers who can produce a wider range of notes?
> 
> ...


The bass and baritone pop voices with the exception of David Bowie have vanished almost completely from pop music. I love Bowie's voice as well as Anthony Newley, who modeled his singing after Bowie. I ADORE early Dionne Warwick before she lost her high notes. but even back in the 60's she was a tenor like Garland, belting out high notes around the tenor High C and no higher. Streisand would go a note or two higher till a couple decades ago. Streisand has one of the most age defying voices in any genre, IMHO. She is 74 and sounds 35.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Grizzled Ghost said:


> ^^^ Wow! That's impressive! And I'd never even heard of her. I'm such a noob.
> 
> I'm gonna have to check out this "Written on Skin" thingy. Do I need the DVD or would a CD suffice?


I suggest that you also look at this ... Unsuk Chin's Le Silence des Sirenes. Also, just for fun, there is the Hannigan/Rattle/LSO Mysteries of the Macabre


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Four pages about a hype, unbelievable


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

Seattleoperafan said:


> The bass and baritone pop voices with the exception of David Bowie have vanished almost completely from pop music. I love Bowie's voice as well as Anthony Newley, who modeled his singing after Bowie.



Oh how I miss those pop baritones...


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Grizzled Ghost said:


> I guess I am very curious why opera seems to avoid "smoky" women's voices in general. To me, sopranos sound fine, but they are not the end-all-be-all of female singing in my book. The success of artists like Adele for example suggests that other voices can sound beautiful too.


She wouldn't sound smokey if she was singing operatic material. Have you ever heard Renee Fleming sing pop material? Her voice sounds much lower. There is something about Adele and a lot of these younger vocalists I don't like. It sounds affected to my ears. She reminds me of another English female singer, Joss Stone. They sound like white girls trying to sound black. Same with the late Amy Winehouse. If I was going to listen to one of these English girls, I'd go with Imogen Heap. To my ears she sounds like the most creative and talented of the lot. And her unique qualities don't seem to be of interest to the mega pop hit machine business.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> The bass and baritone pop voices with the exception of David Bowie have vanished almost completely from pop music. I love Bowie's voice as well as Anthony Newley, who modeled his singing after Bowie. I ADORE early Dionne Warwick before she lost her high notes. but even back in the 60's she was a tenor like Garland, belting out high notes around the tenor High C and no higher. Streisand would go a note or two higher till a couple decades ago. Streisand has one of the most age defying voices in any genre, IMHO. She is 74 and sounds 35.


It was the other way around, actually: Bowie modeled his singing after Newley.

It's nice to see Newley mentioned here! I love his voice (if not always his style), and just yesterday I was watching this:


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Dim7 said:


> Oh how I miss those pop baritones...


Very nostalgic, Dim- my first rickroll for quite a few years.  But say what you like about that song (and I certainly said some choice things about it when it was barely off the TV and radio during the 80s) it was a far better _voice_ than any male pop voice I can remember hearing in recent times. *ducks*


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

The 'recent' voice that most impressed me with the control, range and variety of colour was the sadly late Whitney Houton. Hard to comment on the power of somone who lives by the microphone but she always has fine diction.

I am not good on the technicallities of singing but she adds ornamentation to this like well ... Is it fair to judge her by the standards of trained singers schooled in a different way?






(I just wish I liked more of the material she sang.)


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

An opera fan almost by definition is a lover of the human singing voice, and I believe that opera happens to be where it's at its greatest. However, to have no appreciation of non-operatic performances is snobbish and ill-informed. Thankfully most here seem to share this view.

Belowpar, if you haven't done so, please do YouTube Whitney Houston Star Spangled Banner, for probably her greatest moment.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Don Fatale said:


> An opera fan almost by definition is a lover of the human singing voice, and I believe that opera happens to be where it's at its greatest. However, to have no appreciation of non-operatic performances is snobbish and ill-informed. Thankfully most here seem to share this view.
> 
> Belowpar, if you haven't done so, please do YouTube Whitney Houston Star Spangled Banner, for probably her greatest moment.


Hmm... would it be snobbish and ill informed to opine that Whitney's languorous jazz phrasing sounds flabby and self indulgent, as well as just totally incongruous, in this rather martial song? Plus, the setting of the word 'gleaming' seems to lie uncomfortably low for her. It's of course unfair to judge her in music so far from the pop that made her famous, but I'll stick with John McCormack's famous 1917 recording- he also sounds happier in the higher-lying phrases, but manages the challenge of gleaming/streaming far more smoothly. (There's no way to prove it for certain of course, but I'll award John a bonus point for not wearing a shell suit while he was singing it! )

Whitney:






John:


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## Bardamu (Dec 12, 2011)

Pop and Opera?

This song by Giuni Russo is always what comes in my mind when thinking at the two mixed:


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Figleaf said:


> Hmm... would it be snobbish and ill informed to opine that Whitney's languorous jazz phrasing sounds flabby and self indulgent, as well as just totally incongruous, in this rather martial song? Plus, the setting of the word 'gleaming' seems to lie uncomfortably low for her. It's of course unfair to judge her in music so far from the pop that made her famous, but I'll stick with John McCormack's famous 1917 recording- he also sounds happier in the higher-lying phrases, but manages the challenge of gleaming/streaming far more smoothly. (There's no way to prove it for certain of course, but I'll award John a bonus point for not wearing a shell suit while he was singing it! )
> 
> Whitney:
> 
> ...


Yikes I'm not going to get caught defending Whitney Houston! She suffered from the same problem as other great voices of her ilk (such as Mariah Carey) which was striving for effect, to impress the easily impressed, rather than musicality. Or dare I say 'taste' but that makes me sound snobby.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Don Fatale said:


> Yikes I'm not going to get caught defending Whitney Houston! She suffered from the same problem as other great voices of her ilk (such as Mariah Carey) which was striving for effect, to impress the easily impressed, rather than musicality. Or dare I say 'taste' but that makes me sound snobby.


It's lucky that no opera singer would dream of 'striving for effect, to impress the easily impressed'.  So I guess that plenty of criteria apply to pop and classical singing equally. The Simpsons did a great send up of a really affected jazz/soul singer performing an interminable and stylistically wrong Star Spangled Banner:


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

Figleaf said:


> Hmm... would it be snobbish and ill informed to opine that Whitney's languorous jazz phrasing sounds flabby and self indulgent, as well as just totally incongruous, in this rather martial song? Plus, the setting of the word 'gleaming' seems to lie uncomfortably low for her. It's of course unfair to judge her in music so far from the pop that made her famous, but I'll stick with John McCormack's famous 1917 recording- he also sounds happier in the higher-lying phrases, but manages the challenge of gleaming/streaming far more smoothly. (There's no way to prove it for certain of course, but I'll award John a bonus point for not wearing a shell suit while he was singing it! )
> 
> Whitney:
> 
> ...


I was was cogitating on your response and could see some merit in it until you drew attention to the visual aspect. Even in a shellsuit....


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Belowpar said:


> I was was cogitating on your response and could see some merit in it until you drew attention to the visual aspect. Even in a shellsuit....


Now _that's_ snobbish! She's at a sporting event, not a gala dinner.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

:lol:

Fair enough, it's difficult for even the greatest of artists to look dignified in sportswear!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Figleaf said:


> Hmm... would it be snobbish and ill informed to opine that Whitney's languorous jazz phrasing sounds flabby and self indulgent, as well as just totally incongruous, in this rather martial song? Plus, the setting of the word 'gleaming' seems to lie uncomfortably low for her. It's of course unfair to judge her in music so far from the pop that made her famous, but I'll stick with John McCormack's famous 1917 recording- he also sounds happier in the higher-lying phrases, but manages the challenge of gleaming/streaming far more smoothly. (There's no way to prove it for certain of course, but I'll award John a bonus point for not wearing a shell suit while he was singing it! )
> 
> Whitney:
> 
> ...


Do yourself a favor. Never ever listen to a non operatic performance..... EVER. You'd hate it.


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## Admiral (Dec 27, 2014)

Some general thoughts: Adele was well-trained at an elite, auditioned music school. A very large part of voice training centers around learning to "mix" (that's the term) one's lower and upper registers, so that the blend is seamless.

It's hard work, and no doubt Adele spent many, many hours learning to do it. My guess is that she can, indeed, sing a whole lot higher than her "belt" (that's the term). For example, my daughter can belt to high A-flat or A, which is very high for a mezzo and very difficult to do. In her top register (think of it like a male falsetto) she can whisper that same A-flat quite easily. If you heard an opera singer who couldn't mix her upper and lower registers, you'd run out of the theater, but we tolerate it in musicals and pop. This is a strength of Anna Netrebko for one: she has the same timbre at high A or B that she has in the middle of her voice.

When a singer like Adele or Patti Lupone or Judy Garland rises to a belted middle C, it sounds thrilling, but it's not very high in pitch. It's a full octave lower than a soprano will sing in many operas. 

After years of relying on the "belt" to the exclusion of the mix voice, it becomes more and more difficult to blend those registers. It's very, very hard work to keep it up (even Callas took heat for unmatched registers late in her career). Adele (and Patti and Judy) makes her living belting plain old middle A to C and that's not going to change.

With regard to why there aren't more opera parts for altos, I'll only add that they are very difficult to hear when singing their lowest pitches over an orchestra. My voice teacher was perhaps the best alto in Canada for a generation, solid down below a baritone's low A, but even she would have had trouble projecting over the heart of the orchestra in the range from middle C (262hz) down to G.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

*Admiral:* I always thought that the reason there are not more opera parts for contraltos is that so few women have this voice type.

I'm confused: if you can hear a bass's low notes over an orchestra, wouldn't you also be able to hear a contralto's?

I agree with you about Anna Netrebko. She has one of those soprano voices that is good throughout its range.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Admiral said:


> When a singer like Adele or Patti Lupone or Judy Garland rises to a belted middle C, it sounds thrilling, but it's not very high in pitch. It's a full octave lower than a soprano will sing in many operas.


This is complete and utter nonsense. Middle C is towards the very low end of a soprano's voice. If Adele, Patti and Judy are 'rising' to it, where are they rising from? A couple of notes below? Are you saying that pop singers only have a range of five notes?!

N.


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

I'd never heard of Adele either. The clip given was fine for that genre, but she certainly couldn't sing opera. Nor, as was pointed out, would she want to. The top opera singers make very good money, but nothing like the top pop singers. And you can't sing opera after mucking around with a few friends in a garage. 
Linda Ronstadt had a true, clear voice and fine technique for a pop singer. She made a very funny and attractive Pirates of Penzance with Kevin Kline, and sang Mabel beautifully. On the basis of that, I have read (but not verified) she was booked by the San Francisco opera to sing Mimi in La boheme, but was catastrophic.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

The Conte said:


> This is complete and utter nonsense. Middle C is towards the very low end of a soprano's voice. If Adele, Patti and Judy are 'rising' to it, where are they rising from? A couple of notes below? Are you saying that pop singers only have a range of five notes?!
> 
> N.


Yeah, all three of those singers have/had vocal ranges of over two octaves. There are several songs in _Evita_ where Patti LuPone had to spread a full two octaves, going up to a G5 and spending a lot of time on that E. These are not particularly high notes for an operatic soprano, but almost no roles will an octave above that.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Steatopygous said:


> I'd never heard of Adele either. The clip given was fine for that genre, but she certainly couldn't sing opera. Nor, as was pointed out, would she want to. The top opera singers make very good money, but nothing like the top pop singers. And you can't sing opera after mucking around with a few friends in a garage.
> Linda Ronstadt had a true, clear voice and fine technique for a pop singer. She made a very funny and attractive Pirates of Penzance with Kevin Kline, and sang Mabel beautifully. On the basis of that, I have read (but not verified) she was booked by the San Francisco opera to sing Mimi in La boheme, but was catastrophic.


I heard that about Ronstadt, too, but I don't know the details. It seems sort of bizarre to me that an opera company would have thought she could pull off Mimi. However...

I routinely listen to classic pop and Broadway-type singers and am consistently impressed by how far the vocal resources of many of them extended. Sometimes I'm even given to wonder if certain of them could have been opera singers if they'd had the desire and the training. Barbara Cook, for example, sang "Glitter and Be Gay," a coloratura-style aria, in Bernstein's original Broadway production of CANDIDE. How would she have sounded in "Caro nome" from RIGOLETTO? Could Jim Nabors have sung some of the lighter baritone or bass-baritone roles, like Mozart's Figaro? Lea Salonga clearly has a superb technique -- could she have been an opera soprano? Could Michael Ball, such a great Marius in LES MISERABLES, have been an operatic baritone? It's not that I think being an opera singer is a "nobler" profession than being a great theatre/popular singer, but sometimes it's fun to speculate.


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## Admiral (Dec 27, 2014)

The Conte said:


> This is complete and utter nonsense. Middle C is towards the very low end of a soprano's voice. If Adele, Patti and Judy are 'rising' to it, where are they rising from? A couple of notes below? Are you saying that pop singers only have a range of five notes?!
> 
> N.


Wow, you're quite polite when you disagree with people.

I refer to a woman's middle C (around 520 hz) not a piano's middle C. That's the shorthand of how we'd refer to it although I guess it might be imprecise out of context.


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## Admiral (Dec 27, 2014)

mountmccabe said:


> Yeah, all three of those singers have/had vocal ranges of over two octaves. There are several songs in _Evita_ where Patti LuPone had to spread a full two octaves, going up to a G5 and spending a lot of time on that E. These are not particularly high notes for an operatic soprano, but almost no roles will an octave above that.


You wouldn't want to hear LuPone sing anything near an E (above A440) these days. I heard her a few years ago on Broadway and it's all head voice up top and very poorly mixed. A prime case of alto break.

Again, I apologize for not being clear that I was talking about C (520 hertz), not piano middle C (260hz). While LuPone probably still has over a 2 octave range, my guess is that her workable range is more like C3 to C5


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## Admiral (Dec 27, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> *Admiral:* I always thought that the reason there are not more opera parts for contraltos is that so few women have this voice type.
> 
> I'm confused: if you can hear a bass's low notes over an orchestra, wouldn't you also be able to hear a contralto's?
> 
> I agree with you about Anna Netrebko. She has one of those soprano voices that is good throughout its range.


I think it's a couple of things. The first is pure volume. I sang once with the bass Anatoly Kotcherga. His volume in his low notes (well, the middle of his range, but 'low notes' to me) was absolutely deafening. It just swallowed up the room. I've never heard an alto sing anywhere near that loudly when below a C (262 hz).

I think the other thing is that the alto's low notes are happening right in the thick of a lot of orchestration, although of course a composer can work around it.

Every church choir I've been in has 3 altos for every soprano, but I'm guessing that some of this has to do again with the difficulty of training the female voice to avoid the alto break, and have one smooth transition. Some of those altos might untrained mezzos or sopranos. An interesting issue, for sure. Maybe a case of the chicken and the egg.


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

Bellinilover said:


> I heard that about Ronstadt, too, but I don't know the details. It seems sort of bizarre to me that an opera company would have thought she could pull off Mimi. However...
> 
> I routinely listen to classic pop and Broadway-type singers and am consistently impressed by how far the vocal resources of many of them extended. Sometimes I'm even given to wonder if certain of them could have been opera singers if they'd had the desire and the training. Barbara Cook, for example, sang "Glitter and Be Gay," a coloratura-style aria, in Bernstein's original Broadway production of CANDIDE. How would she have sounded in "Caro nome" from RIGOLETTO? Could Jim Nabors have sung some of the lighter baritone or bass-baritone roles, like Mozart's Figaro? Lea Salonga clearly has a superb technique -- could she have been an opera soprano? Could Michael Ball, such a great Marius in LES MISERABLES, have been an operatic baritone? It's not that I think being an opera singer is a "nobler" profession than being a great theatre/popular singer, but sometimes it's fun to speculate.


Like you I love musical theatre music and it's singers.

I saw Barbara Cook live twice. Certainly by the time I saw her even ins a small room she was a microphone singer and although Glitter and be Gay attracts Dessay etc. I don't think it's that demanding. 
Again saw Ball twice. Sondheim's Passion is through sung and although Ball was fine he didn't excitedme (although that wasn't true for a number of young female's in the audience) in that or as Sweeney Todd.
Until you mentioned it I never thought they had voices suitable for Opera.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Admiral said:


> I think it's a couple of things. The first is pure volume. I sang once with the bass Anatoly Kotcherga. His volume in his low notes (well, the middle of his range, but 'low notes' to me) was absolutely deafening. It just swallowed up the room. I've never heard an alto sing anywhere near that loudly when below a C (262 hz).
> 
> I think the other thing is that the alto's low notes are happening right in the thick of a lot of orchestration, although of course a composer can work around it.
> 
> Every church choir I've been in has 3 altos for every soprano, but I'm guessing that some of this has to do again with the difficulty of training the female voice to avoid the alto break, and have one smooth transition. Some of those altos might untrained mezzos or sopranos. An interesting issue, for sure. Maybe a case of the chicken and the egg.


Every church choir I've been in has 3 sopranos for every alto and the contraltos I've sung with could be heard throughout their entire range because they engaged the crico-thyroid muscle group even for their lowest notes thus making them resonant and big in volume (some people refer to this as 'projecting into the mask', using the head voice or head resonance).

Your experiences seem to be the complete opposite of mine, I am tempted to ask which planet you are based on!



N.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

The Conte said:


> Every church choir I've been in has 3 sopranos for every alto and the contraltos I've sung with could be heard throughout their entire range because they engaged the crico-thyroid muscle group even for their lowest notes thus making them resonant and big in volume (some people refer to this as 'projecting into the mask', using the head voice or head resonance).
> 
> Your experiences seem to be the complete opposite of mine, I am tempted to ask which planet you are based on!
> 
> ...


I always thought that you are much better then this Conte.


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## Grizzled Ghost (Jun 10, 2015)

He is! Or she is! They is?

He just had a momentary slip and will quickly rebound with his (or her) usual tact, style, and enthusiasm!

Forgive and forget, move on, etc.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Belowpar said:


> Like you I love musical theatre music and it's singers.
> 
> I saw Barbara Cook live twice. Certainly by the time I saw her even ins a small room she was a microphone singer and although Glitter and be Gay attracts Dessay etc. I don't think it's that demanding.
> Again saw Ball twice. Sondheim's Passion is through sung and although Ball was fine he didn't excitedme (although that wasn't true for a number of young female's in the audience) in that or as Sweeney Todd.
> Until you mentioned it I never thought they had voices suitable for Opera.


Oh, I think it's very possible that even with additional training their voices wouldn't have "worked" in opera. I am actually glad they cultivated their gifts in musical theatre rather than becoming popular singers who "dabble" in opera arias and do a mediocre job of it (ahem, Katherine Jenkins).


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Pugg said:


> I always thought that you are much better then this Conte.


I was being playful, not nasty. I am quite genuinely surprised by the experiences of Admiral.

N.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

The Conte said:


> I was being playful, not nasty. I am quite genuinely surprised by the experiences of Admiral.
> 
> N.


Okay, I am sorry then :tiphat:


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