# Precise definition of the Brahmsian style



## ScipioAfricanus (Jan 7, 2010)

We hear the term, Brahmsian alot. But do we have a precise definition of Brahmsian? Elgar is the British Brahmsian. Gernsheim and Herzogenberg followed the Brahms model etc. 
What are your opinions? How do you define Brahmsian.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

I think a precise definition is going to be a big ask.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

The term best relegated to, while then unnecessary or redundant, the music of Brahms


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## LancsMan (Oct 28, 2013)

Not really sure Elgar is that Brahmsian - except perhaps some of his chamber music. I don't find his orchestral music much like Brahms.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

People also say Beethovenian, Mozartian, Mahlerian, Brucknerian. It's simply terms relating to their unique voice of music, and to try and narrow it down would be an absolute bore.


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2013)

^ This pretty much. If someone said "Brahmsian" - I think in my head "Oh it sounds like Brahms" not some nonsense about modulations and motivic developments.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

^ This ^^ Ditto this ^^^ Ditto...


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## Avey (Mar 5, 2013)

I am Brahmsian. 

At least, in my eyes.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

1. Orchestration
2. Rhythm
3. Harmony

Those 3 things would help define his style the most.

When I'm listening to a piece of music and I hear...
1. _Stocky hemiola_
2. Strings harmonizing in long phrases by 3rds and 6ths
3. Very simple woodwind writing (scalar, _slurred technique_, melodic, no trills)
4. Arpeggiated basslines, going up and down, up and down
5. Swelling chords
6. Counterpoint/Imitation

... Among other things, I would call that "typically Brahmsian"

Am I right?


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Long asymmetrical lines; extensive use of counterpoint & rhythmic counterpoint / rhythm often obfuscating bar-lines, as well as the strong-weak beats within any given measure.

Favoring the middle to lower range of voices and instruments.

"thick" registration, say, in a piano part, consistent doublings, often eight notes (with doublings) per chord, ditto for the orchestration.

Concern and success with vastly extended symphonic form and structure.

Classicism, i.e. restraint of gesture and intent rather than overt 'personal expression.'

How that helps describe others who wrote emulating the style or in a similar style of the period is sort of beyond me, but there are some known traits. 


P.s. perhaps it is your habit to write such phrases as "we hear the term 'Brahmsian' a lot." ??? Because if I am included in that 'we', you are mistaken. I suppose it depends upon what blog you've been reading?


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

...................................................... #)%($!_#$&@( .........................


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

ScipioAfricanus said:


> How do you define Brahmsian.


The newly invented term "mellow-drama" comes to mind.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Probably a repeat (I'm getting old, so forgive me) but if it sounds like horn players wandering in the forest, looking for something terribly important that they lost so long ago that they can't remember what it was -- it's Brahms or at least Brahmsian.


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

Melodic, contrapuntal, and often chunky; but it's possible my impression of the heaviness in his music is influenced by viewing his late portraits.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Probably a repeat (I'm getting old, so forgive me) but if it sounds like horn players wandering in the forest, looking for something terribly important that they lost so long ago that they can't remember what it was -- it's Brahms or at least Brahmsian.


Even his string quartets sound like that, despite the absence of horns. He uses the viola like it's a horn.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

Brahms was a master of transition. Something he no doubt learned from the music of Beethoven. 

And yes, I do hear a similar approach to texture and structure in Elgar.


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## ScipioAfricanus (Jan 7, 2010)

PetrB said:


> Long asymmetrical lines; extensive use of counterpoint & rhythmic counterpoint / rhythm often obfuscating bar-lines, as well as the strong-weak beats within any given measure.
> 
> Favoring the middle to lower range of voices and instruments.
> 
> ...


I think you hit the nail on the head.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

ScipioAfricanus said:


> How do you define Brahmsian.


The basic principle of Brahmsian: it's very Beethovenian.

Question of the day: why Brahms is Brahmsian and Chopin is Chopinesque? Is there such thing as Brahmsesque and if yes, how is it different from Brahmsian?


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

"In the style of Brahms."


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

*Brahmsian?* I know it when I hear it. I was struck by this association just days ago, listening to Respighi's _The Pines of Rome_ (Maezel, Sony). It is a certain handling of the horns, the orchestration...what is that Brahms symphony with the fourths? It sounds like the 10 o'clock news.
It's an orchestral _gestalt_, which sounds perfectly suited for the orchestra. It makes the whole thing speak as if it were one gestalt. As such, I think it has become appropriated by others, until it has become a norm. We've all heard too much other stuff to appreciate the novelty of Brahms.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

millionrainbows said:


> *Brahmsian?* I know it when I hear it. I was struck by this association just days ago, listening to Respighi's _The Pines of Rome_ (Maezel, Sony). It is a certain handling of the horns, the orchestration...what is that Brahms symphony with the fourths? It sounds like the 10 o'clock news.
> It's an orchestral _gestalt_, which sounds perfectly suited for the orchestra. It makes the whole thing speak as if it were one gestalt. As such, I think it has become appropriated by others, until it has become a norm. We've all heard too much other stuff to appreciate the novelty of Brahms.


_*Accept no subsitutes *_


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## spradlig (Jul 25, 2012)

I love Brahms, but I like a description Tchaikovsky wrote of the first movement of Brahms's Violin Concerto : Tchaikovsky describes how the music always sounds like it is building to something important, but that something never happens. Does anyone have that description at hand?



KenOC said:


> Probably a repeat (I'm getting old, so forgive me) but if it sounds like horn players wandering in the forest, looking for something terribly important that they lost so long ago that they can't remember what it was -- it's Brahms or at least Brahmsian.


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## spradlig (Jul 25, 2012)

My first impression of Brahms was that his music was _stuffy_: I think that word conveys the superficial flavor of some of his music if you do not listen to it actively.

I love his music now. It is difficult to describe why one loves any music, and others have given more eloquent descriptions in this thread already, so I won't try.


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## spradlig (Jul 25, 2012)

I think Brahms was _better_ at transitions than Beethoven. Some famous Beethoven pieces have awkward transitions (e.g., in my opinion, the first movement of his 7th symphony), and I can't think of any offhand in Brahms.



Petwhac said:


> Brahms was a master of transition. Something he no doubt learned from the music of Beethoven.
> 
> And yes, I do hear a similar approach to texture and structure in Elgar.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

*Brahmsian adj.*

Having the qualities of that meatloaf your wife makes for an unremarkable Thursday dinner after 20 years of marriage.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Couchie said:


> *Brahmsian adj.*
> 
> Having the qualities of that meatloaf your wife makes for an unremarkable Thursday dinner after 20 years of marriage.


Wagnerian: The weekly served on Friday fish-loaf from the same source.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

BTW my wife (of 40 years) made steamed butterflied lobster tails with drawn butter and fettucini alfredo with fresh ground parmesan cheese tonight. It was as good as it sounds. Is that Brahmsian or Wagnerian? Last night it was sous vide baby back ribs (but I cooked that!)


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

It's Khachaturiananianian.

How do you grind Parmesan cheese?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Parmesan comes in blocks like most any other cheese. It tends to be dry and hard. We have a rotary grinder with a crank handle. In restaurants they will use that or sometimes a flat plate grinder. Either will do. The trick is to have the pasta hot enough to melt the ground cheese partially, but not completely.

Do NOT (repeat NOT) ever use the pre-ground parmesan that comes in a cardboard tube, which is technologically pre-staled.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

KenOC said:


> BTW my wife (of 40 years) made steamed butterflied lobster tails with drawn butter and fettucini alfredo with fresh ground parmesan cheese tonight. It was as good as it sounds. Is that Brahmsian or Wagnerian? Last night is was sous vide baby back ribs (but I cooked that!)


Actually, she is continuing with her subtle years-long plan of offing you early via food consumption and what she prepares for you to eat.

To diet is your only marital revenge and strategy against dying early due to food intake.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

PetrB said:


> Actually, she is continuing with her subtle years-long plan of offing you early via food consumption and what she prepares for you to eat.


But...what a way to go!


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

KenOC said:


> fettucini alfredo


Didn't he perform Pagliacci?


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

"Brahmsian" - all substance...no flash


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## ScipioAfricanus (Jan 7, 2010)

KenOC said:


> BTW my wife (of 40 years) made steamed butterflied lobster tails with drawn butter and fettucini alfredo with fresh ground parmesan cheese tonight. It was as good as it sounds. Is that Brahmsian or Wagnerian? Last night it was sous vide baby back ribs (but I cooked that!)


Sounds Rossinnian


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## Animato (Dec 5, 2013)

Brahms tries to annoy his audience with his music, but those who endure will be rewarded with music like fairy tales . Example: his Alto Rhapsody


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Animato said:


> Brahms tries to annoy his audience with his music


Now that I learn about his artistic goals, I must finally admit that he was true master who knew how to have his way with the listener.


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## micfuh (Dec 17, 2013)

Good question. I perceive Brahmsian as something that sounds like Brahms had composed it. Erno Dohnanyi's first opus, his Piano Quintet, is Brahms through and through. Brahms had said of the work "I couldn't have done it better" or something to that effect. The first works by many composers sound like Brahms. Hindemith's first quartet, Schoenberg's first Quartet......in fact there are so many composers that seemed to follow Brahms in their earliest works. If something sounds like Brahms, check first to make sure that Brahms actually wrote the work!


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## micfuh (Dec 17, 2013)

Definitely Wagner in Venice.


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## Alfacharger (Dec 6, 2013)

Ah, Brahmsian....


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## ScipioAfricanus (Jan 7, 2010)

Alfacharger said:


> Ah, Brahmsian....


Parry is definitely a Brahms wannabe. He even wrote an Elegy after hearing the death of Brahms.


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## GiulioCesare (Apr 9, 2013)

Start the orchestral piece with the brass. "Ha! They never saw that coming!".


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Brahms seems to have the same problem of "warming to" that Mozart has. Superbly crafted, perhaps with no obvious "built-in" drama. Maybe this is why performers like it so much; they can infuse it with their _own_ brand of drama, if they so choose.

If there is "structural drama" built-in to Brahms, it is certainly evident in the Schoenberg orchestration of the G minor piano quintet. I refer to this as the "fifth symphony." The melodic lines are so beautifully cascading, like a Chinese waterfall...

What was the question?


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> Brahms seems to have the same problem of "warming to" that Mozart has. Superbly crafted, perhaps with no obvious "built-in" drama. Maybe this is why performers like it so much; they can infuse it with their _own_ brand of drama, if they so choose.
> 
> If there is "structural drama" built-in to Brahms, it is certainly evident in the Schoenberg orchestration of the G minor piano quintet. I refer to this as the "fifth symphony." The melodic lines are so beautifully cascading, like a Chinese waterfall...
> 
> What was the question?


It sounds almost like you are praising Brahms. Who are you and what have you done with the real millionrainbows?


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

brianvds said:


> It sounds almost like you are praising Brahms. Who are you and what have you done with the real millionrainbows?


Well, I never said I disliked Brahms, did I? I accept his music for what it is. Like all good music, it grows on you slowly. My collection is beginning to very gradually grow with more Brahms titles. I am approaching him slowly and judiciously. He's not an "instant attraction" for me, similarly, Mozart. I have to stumble across the right recording, or the right interpretation to be drawn in. Perhaps this wide divergence in interpretation is the crux of the matter.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> Well, I never said I disliked Brahms, did I? I accept his music for what it is.


Well, I distinctly remember messages in which you fumed against Brahms for impotently raging against the inevitable tide of history. Or something like that. Anyway, not to worry, my previous post was meant in jest, as is this one.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

brianvds said:


> Well, I distinctly remember messages in which you fumed against Brahms for impotently raging against the inevitable tide of history. Or something like that. Anyway, not to worry, my previous post was meant in jest, as is this one.


Your memory is not document.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

brianvds said:


> Well, I distinctly remember messages in which you fumed against Brahms for impotently raging against the inevitable tide of history. Or something like that. Anyway, not to worry, my previous post was meant in jest, as is this one.


In that same breath, I posted this:



> Another way in to Brahms is via his songs. In fact, songs constitute the vast majority of his output, yet are rarely mentioned as panaceas to "Brahms dysfunction syndrome."
> 
> Here are some general guidelines for "getting into" Brahms:
> 
> ...


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