# Does any Broadway Musical qualify as a modern American Opera?



## Chibi Ubu

I believe that some do, and some don't. On The Town & West Side Story by Leonard Bernstein + Various Lyricists were both originally conceived in operatic format as was Porgy and Bess by Gershwin.

Bye Bye Birdie, at least in film form does not. Are there other examples? So what do you think? Please feel free to agree or disagree, please!


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## pianozach

Chibi Ubu said:


> I believe that some do, and some don't. On The Town & West Side Story by Leonard Bernstein + Various Lyricists were both originally conceived in operatic format as was Porgy and Bess by Gershwin.
> 
> Bye Bye Birdie, at least in film form does not. Are there other examples? So what do you think? Please feel free to agree or disagree, please!


There's plenty. The two you mentioned,

On The Town 
West Side Story

. . . and, in order of length of title . . . .

Passion 
Blizzard
Candide
Pagliacci
Carousel
Susannah
A Quiet Place
Les Miserables
Porgy and Bess
Sunset Boulevard
The Secret Garden
A Little Night Music
Phantom of the Opera
The Light in the Piazza
Séance on a Wet Afternoon
Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street


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## Chibi Ubu

Nice response, thanks for the feedback!


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## jegreenwood

pianozach said:


> There's plenty. The two you mentioned,
> 
> On The Town
> West Side Story
> 
> . . . and, in order of length of title . . . .
> 
> Passion
> Blizzard
> Candide
> Pagliacci
> Carousel
> Susannah
> A Quiet Place
> Les Miserables
> Porgy and Bess
> Sunset Boulevard
> The Secret Garden
> A Little Night Music
> Phantom of the Opera
> The Light in the Piazza
> Séance on a Wet Afternoon
> Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street


Nice list. There's one I've never heard of (_Blizzard_) and several that I've only read about. I would certainly add _The Most Happy Fella'_.

Oddly, I would not have included _On the Town_ or _West Side Story_. Both of those are collaborations of the team of Bernstein and Jerome Robbins, I would consider them more associated with ballet than opera. _On the Town_ is in fact derived from the ballet _Fancy Free_. _West Side Story_ was Robbins's brainchild (as the printed credits always state). I certainly consider it the greatest dance musical of all time. (I watched the opening few minutes of the Spielberg film, and couldn't continue without the original choreography - and I admire Justin Peck.)


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## pianozach

jegreenwood said:


> Nice list. There's one I've never heard of (_Blizzard_) and several that I've only read about. I would certainly add _The Most Happy Fella'_.
> 
> Oddly, I would not have included _On the Town_ or _West Side Story_. Both of those are collaborations of the team of Bernstein and Jerome Robbins, I would consider them more associated with ballet than opera. _On the Town_ is in fact derived from the ballet _Fancy Free_. _West Side Story_ was Robbins's brainchild (as the printed credits always state). I certainly consider it the greatest dance musical of all time. (I watched the opening few minutes of the Spielberg film, and couldn't continue without the original choreography - and I admire Justin Peck.)


Oh, yes, absolutely *The Most Happy Fella*. I'd forgotten about that. I've even accompanied a production of it (the "pit" was just two keyboards).

*West Side Story* is fairly unique as far as operatic Broadway goes. Yes, it's a heavy art dance show AS WELL as being very operatic. *On the Town* is a pop music counterpoint . . . . pop music sensibilities, and pop dancing as well.

I think that Bernstein was trying one-up Rodgers & Hammerstein's *Oklahoma* with West Side Story. Oklahoma has an actual 10-15 minute ballet inserted in the show.


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## jegreenwood

pianozach said:


> Oh, yes, absolutely *The Most Happy Fella*. I'd forgotten about that. I've even accompanied a production of it (the "pit" was just two keyboards).
> 
> *West Side Story* is fairly unique as far as operatic Broadway goes. Yes, it's a heavy art dance show AS WELL as being very operatic. *On the Town* is a pop music counterpoint . . . . pop music sensibilities, and pop dancing as well.
> 
> I think that Bernstein was trying one-up Rodgers & Hammerstein's *Oklahoma* with West Side Story. Oklahoma has an actual 10-15 minute ballet inserted in the show.


We can agree to disagree about WSS. I've never seen the original choreography for _On the Town_ (except for whatever they included in _Jerome Robbins' Broadway_ - which I don't remember). The recent Broadway revival was re-choreographed.


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## SanAntone

I would not include any shows by Andrew Lloyd Webber.

*Adam Guettel* wrote another great show, _Floyd Collins_, and is one of the few composers from the next generation after Sondheim to approach his level. He's not completed many shows but has a song cycle that is very good, _Myths and Hymns_.

I'd also mention three of Sondheim's other shows, _Follies_, _Pacific Overtures_, and _Assassins_.

For me the American musical has often achieved high artistic levels, surpassing in many ways contemporary opera in the last half of the 20th century. But too often Broadway musicals are revivals, adaptations of films, and shows built around Rock or Pop songwriters, which cheapen the genre, IMO.

*Kander and Ebb* (_Cabaret_, _Chicago_) have written some great shows, as has *Charles Strouse*. I also want to mention *Jerry Herman* whose shows are among the best (_Hello Dolly_, _Mame_) and often unique in their subject. (_Milk and Honey_, _Dear World_, _Mack & Mabel_, _La Cage aux Folles_).

*Cy Coleman* has written several great shows (_Wildcat_, _Little Me_, _Sweet Charity_, _Seesaw_, _On the Twentieth Century_).


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## jegreenwood

SanAntone said:


> I would not include any shows by Andrew Lloyd Webber.
> 
> *Adam Guettel* wrote another great show, _Floyd Collins_, and is one of the few composers from the next generation after Sondheim to approach his level. He's not completed many shows but has a song cycle that is very good, _Myths and Hymns_.
> 
> I'd also mention three of Sondheim's other shows, _Follies_, _Pacific Overtures_, and _Assassins_.
> 
> For me the American musical has often achieved high artistic levels, surpassing in many ways contemporary opera in the last half of the 20th century. But too often Broadway musicals are revivals, adaptations of films, and shows built around Rock or Pop songwriters, which cheapen the genre, IMO.
> 
> *Kander and Ebb* (_Cabaret_, _Chicago_) have written some great shows, as has *Charles Strouse*. I also want to mention *Jerry Herman* whose shows are among the best (_Hello Dolly_, _Mame_) and often unique in their subject. (_Milk and Honey_, _Dear World_, _Mack & Mabel_, _La Cage aux Folles_).
> 
> *Cy Coleman* has written several great shows (_Wildcat_, _Little Me_, _Sweet Charity_, _Seesaw_, _On the Twentieth Century_).


I've never seen _On the Twentieth Century_, but I recall reading that was conceived of as something of an operetta. If we're allowed to venture into rock-based scores, I would add _Next to Normal_. It's through-sung and tells a dramatic story.

There must be a number of others performed off-Broadway. Did anyone see _James Joyce's The Dead_?

Edit - also worth noting are Bock and Harnick. Although they are best known for _Fiddler on the Roof_, my favorite show of theirs is _She Loves Me_, which has an comic operetta-ish quality.


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