# Schubert's 9th - Quoting Beethoven?



## Robert Gamble

Realized my comments regarding this are probably better posted here:

So I was reading The Guardian's piece on Schubert's 9th Symphony which focuses on Schubert's quoting of the Ode to Joy in the finale, and because I'd read it I was quite focused on the symphony as my wife were out and about seeing the Christmas lights tonight.

And maybe I was imagining things, but I didn't see it coming out of the blue like the writer did. In fact, in the 2nd movement, a number of times I heard a theme that started with 3 notes or so that sounded suspiciously like the first three notes of Ode to Joy before becoming something else. And that theme was repeated before and after the 'full quote' in the final movement. Again, maybe I was imagining it since my car isn't the ideal 'vehicle' (heh) for careful listening... but I'm curious whether anyone else has noticed this?

My personal feeling listening to it was of the composer saying: "I took it this direction.. here's the other famous theme that went a different direction. How do they compare?" (My own feeling is that the 'other famous theme' is better, but...) Again, I was focusing on the symphony with regards to the Ode to Joy quotation, so that probably colored how I thought about it...


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## Triplets

Schubert quotes Beethoven? I have listened to the Great C Major (FYI, there is now a dispute as to whether Schubert wrote 8 or 9 Symphonies) for years bet never noted that. Where does the quotation supposedly occur?


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## sbmonty

I hear it at almost precisely the midway point in the 4th movement. There is a brief pause, then the woodwinds come in with the theme, and it's passed around briefly. 
I haven't listened to the previous movements this am to see if I can spot the theme there too, but will listen to them later today.


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## hpowders

sbmonty said:


> I hear it at almost precisely the midway point in the 4th movement. There is a brief pause, then the woodwinds come in with the theme, and it's passed around briefly.
> I haven't listened to the previous movements this am to see if I can spot the theme there too, but will listen to them later today.


Yes. It's fairly obvious. Rather than being plagiaristic, I would like to believe Schubert is simply paying tribute to the great Beethoven.


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## Alfacharger

Triplets said:


> Schubert quotes Beethoven? I have listened to the Great C Major (FYI, there is now a dispute as to whether Schubert wrote 8 or 9 Symphonies) for years bet never noted that. Where does the quotation supposedly occur?


I think it starts around 3.24 in this video.


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## Robert Gamble

So, it's not that he quotes Beethoven in the earlier movements, it's that the first three notes (to my ear) of the Ode to Joy make their appearance a few times before one of the main themes that Schubert uses in the 2nd movement and later in the 4th. Obviously three notes by themselves don't mean he was thinking of Ode to Joy, but given that he then quotes that part in the 4th and then uses the theme that he used in the 2nd movement, seems a bit of an odd coincidence. One could almost imagine that someone pointed out that he used those three notes and they were expecting the Ode to Joy, and then he decided to include it as a bit of a joke.  I would guess though from everything I heard that the quotation is, as mentioned earlier, a tribute to Beethoven more than anything else.


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## Radames

Triplets said:


> Schubert quotes Beethoven? I have listened to the Great C Major (FYI, there is now a dispute as to whether Schubert wrote 8 or 9 Symphonies) for years bet never noted that. Where does the quotation supposedly occur?


Here's a nice article about it that uses the classic Szell recording - my favorite. At 3:27 in the finale starting with the clarinet. 
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/...usic-OPUS-84-Schubert-s-Ninth-Symphony-finale


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## Robert Gamble

So, decided to really listen to this again to see if my impressions of Beethoven's Ode to Joy being teased (my term for the sections I felt included notes that sounded suspiciously like the opening notes to Ode to Joy, as opposed to the fuller quote in the 4th movement). I'll include a link to the Youtube version (Furtwangler) I'm listening to, and the time stamp for when I notice the teases.






1st movement: 2:59 - 3:07 (this one feels very obvious to me), 6:30 - 6:33 (just a few notes buried in the bombast), 12:03 - 12:15 (the same three or 4 notes as in 6:30-6:33 repeated three times)

2nd Movement: 15:13 - 15:28 (to me lots of 3-4 note teases here). This theme is repeated twice more in the movement relatively shortly afterwards and then twice again about midway through.

3rd Movement: There's a bit around 37:40 or so that's more like a 'similar' feel and flow than a true tease.

4th Movement: 43:18-43:20, 43:51-43:53, and a few more times before the actual 'quote' starting at 45:11.

Yeah, I know that 3-4 notes in most cases _could_ be a coincidence, but given that there's the obvious quote in the 4th movement, it feels more like he's teasing it at multiple times earlier in the symphony but in a way that's organic to the music he's writing.

Again, I don't think I would have noticed this except that I went into it two weeks ago, never hearing it before, but knowing about the quote.


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