# Music that you hate...



## Fugue Meister

Everyone posts tons of threads about "music we like" or "which is your favorite" (yes I'm very guilty too) but what are some pieces of music by any composer that you loath. These should be works that you've given a fair chance or you used to like but were just "young and stupid", they can be from a composer you love as well but let's kick around some negativity. :devil:

I'll start it off since I've seen it mentioned a few times earlier I detest Holst's "the Planets" just utter nonsense. I also can't stand Eine Kleine Nachtmusik of Mozart's way too much exposure in pop culture. 
Oh and Liszt and Schumann, could be the stars of a show called composers that absolutely suck and I don't like them. :devil: 

Alright, let's here some of yours (oh and it's okay to think I'm wrong, let's hash it out...civilly of course).


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## Andreas

There's no reason to hate any music, I think. Just like with people. One can, however, acknowledge that one doesn't get along well with some, I suppose. In my case, that would be music in the style of Gershwin, Liszt and Rachmaninov.


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## SeptimalTritone

So... I actually like Eine Kleine Nachtmusik. No, it's not a masterpiece or whatever and never was intended to be, but... I like it for what it is, and the final movement is pretty good. You can't hate it just because the "noobs" like it!

And I like the moonlight sonata! Yes, the first movement is atmospheric arpeggiated chords, but again, it is what it is. On the other hand the final movement: it's so good! It flows perfectly. OK the moonlight sonata isn't terribly profound, but it's quite enjoyable. Again, no need to hate it.

And yes, I like Pachelbel's canon.  Sue me.

But I don't like the planets or Fur Elise, but it's again not because the "noobs" like them, but rather I just don't like them.


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## JustinSlick

SeptimalTritone said:


> But I don't like the planets or Fur Elise, but it's again not because the "noobs" like them, but rather I just don't like them.


Hah, is that actually a thing, noobs liking The Planets?

Because I am totally a noob, and The Planets was one of the very first things I really got into.


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## KenOC

The three initial citations are interesting. Eine Kleine Nachtmusik not a masterpiece? Who else could have written it? The Moonlight Sonata? The initial contemporary reviews were overwhelmed. Nothing like this (or like the Pathetique before it) had ever been heard. Our ears today are, simply, jaded.

See the Beethoven sonata reviews for reactions at the time:

https://sites.google.com/site/kenocstuff/


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## SeptimalTritone

Ken, Mozart and Beethoven wrote much much better stuff than those examples.

Edit: and reactions at the time don't mean much. People hated most of Mahler's symphony premiers. And people were totally confused by the Grosse Fugue and hated it, but of course with time it became accepted as a masterpiece.


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## ptr

I really don't hate any music, I believe that it is a sign of severe immaturity to do so... I don't even "hate" the music of those contemporary composers that imitate historical forms (and poorly so) and showing themselves of as something "new", I disdain these persons, but I don't hate their music as that would ad value to a product that really never should have left the sock drawer. 

/ptr


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## SeptimalTritone

JustinSlick said:


> Hah, is that actually a thing, noobs liking The Planets?
> 
> Because I am totally a noob, and The Planets was one of the very first things I really got into.


Nothing wrong with liking the planets, and, in fact, nothing wrong with liking or disliking anything so long as you gave it a fair, attentive listen. The "noob" thing was more about the danger of not liking a piece because its perceived to be a "noob" piece. I just wanted to make the point that one shouldn't take a piece not seriously because it's popular.

Edit: Holy guacamole, am I a senior member already?!?


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## Fugue Meister

ptr said:


> I really don't hate any music, I believe that it is a sign of severe immaturity to do so... I don't even "hate" the music of those contemporary composers that imitate historical forms (and poorly so) and showing themselves of as something "new", I disdain these persons, but I don't hate their music as that would ad value to a product that really never should have left the sock drawer.
> 
> /ptr


Well I see what your saying, I don't really hate any absolute music but I'd rather have a tarantula lay eggs in my ear than to hear one instant of rap or country music. Those are forms I do really hate but as that's not the OP's point let me rephrase specifically for those of you who need to get all semantical about things:

Music that you have heard but you would never go out of your way to put on ever, let alone purchase or even tolerate if it came on the radio... Is that good enough then, now how 'bout an answer ptr?


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## Guest

Fugue Meister said:


> Everyone posts tons of threads about "music we like" or "which is your favorite" (yes I'm very guilty too) but what are some pieces of music by any composer that you loath. These should be works that you've given a fair chance or you used to like but were just "*young and stupid*", they can be from a composer you love as well but let's kick around some negativity. :devil:
> 
> I'll start it off since I've seen it mentioned a few times earlier I detest Holst's "the Planets" just utter nonsense. I also can't stand Eine Kleine Nachtmusik of Mozart's way too much exposure in pop culture.
> Oh and Liszt and Schumann, could be the stars of a show called composers that absolutely suck and I don't like them. :devil:
> 
> Alright, let's here some of yours (oh and it's okay to think I'm wrong, let's hash it out...civilly of course).


Oh to be young and stupid again!

I can't think of music that I liked 'then' that I now _hate_, though I can think of stuff that I just don't listen to anymore - but it was almost all pop/rock then. For example, I used to own 3 ELO albums, but not any longer. The only classical I used to own but gave away was Dvorak's _From the New World_. and Grieg's _Peer Gynt_.

By all means detest _The Planets_, but please restrain your urge to be quite so dismissive as to call it 'utter nonsense'. You might be mistaken for one trying too hard to be older and wiser!


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## JustinSlick

SeptimalTritone said:


> Nothing wrong with liking the planets, and, in fact, nothing wrong with liking or disliking anything so long as you gave it a fair, attentive listen. The "noob" thing was more about the danger of not liking a piece because its perceived to be a "noob" piece. I just wanted to make the point that one shouldn't take a piece not seriously because it's popular.


Yeah, I definitely get your point! I just got a good chuckle out of the fact that I walked directly into a classical music stereotype right off the bat.

Jupiter makes me feel like I'm riding a horse through monument valley-perhaps that's why new listeners are drawn to it


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## ptr

Fugue Meister said:


> Is that good enough then, now how 'bout an answer ptr?


Sure, for me there is an ocean of diffrence between "hating" and "avoiding" things that You dislike for one or another reason! I avoid lots of music that I don't like/care for, so much that I really put it out of my head and concentrate on things I like instead.

I really don't understand why people allow themselves to hate things when there is so precious little time in life to engage in things You like! Poor time management seems to be a grand part of our wasteful culture!

/ptr


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## SeptimalTritone

Oh no Justin! I didn't want to make you feel that the planets was something only for "new listeners" to enjoy and something that "experienced listeners" should outgrow! One thing we always want to encourage is for people to be able to like or dislike anything without being criticized for it. Indeed, some pieces usually take longer (more repeated listening) to get into, but again, those who like them are not necessarily "more sophisticated" listeners, and those more inaccessible pieces aren't necessarily even better.

Good luck!


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## PetrB

JustinSlick said:


> Hah, is that actually a thing, noobs liking The Planets?
> 
> Because I am totally a noob, and The Planets was one of the very first things I really got into.


Yup. zOMG, you're average! 

Fact is, those pieces commonly catching the n00b's attentions aren't at all bad pieces, but they do seem to be some of a small handful (not the only two) of the pieces that catch people's imagination first.


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## Winterreisender

I hate (or at least strongly dislike) many pieces by Webern, e.g. the String Quartet, because it just sounds cold, empty and threadbare.

Not keen on Berg's Violin Concerto either. I find the banal arpeggios that open the piece to be melodically rather uninteresting.

A lot of Bruckner bores me as well. At times he can be just too big and bloated.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

There is only one: the "Land of Hope and Glory" section from Elgar's pomp and circumstance march no. 1 :lol:

Everything else is really awesome because there is something I can really learn from every piece that I have heard if I get around to studying them all properly.


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## SeptimalTritone

Winterreisender said:


> I hate (or at least strongly dislike) many pieces by Webern, e.g. the String Quartet, because it just sounds cold, empty and threadbare.
> 
> Not keen on Berg's Violin Concerto either. I find the banal arpeggios that open the piece to be melodically rather uninteresting.
> 
> A lot of Bruckner bores me as well. At times he can be just too big and bloated.


Indeed, Webern is a bit tough. Come back to it: at first I didn't like him but now I've gotten into it more. Just focus on the sound color, be infinitely alert, and enjoy the bareness! There is expression within that bareness.

As far as the Berg, you could make that same criticism about the opening of Beethoven's ninth, and those are just descending fourths and fifths, not even arpeggios!

I'll admit I haven't even heard a single Bruckner symphony (OMG!). I need to remedy this deficiency, but how can I when there is so much great modern music to listen to! So much repertoire...


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## Guest

Fugue Meister said:


> those of you who need to get all semantical about things


Well, discussions are carried out with words. And the words are arranged in certain orders according to certain linguistic conventions. And both the words by themselves and in their orders mean something. And semantics is all about meaning.

So "those of you et cetera" would be just about anyone who is interested in meaning and in saying something meaningful and in carrying on a conversation about anything.


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## Guest

SeptimalTritone said:


> Ken, Mozart and Beethoven wrote much much better stuff than those examples.


Hey, Ken, you're up there with the greats!


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## MagneticGhost

There is plenty of music I'm not so keen on but like ptr I wouldn't go so far to say I hate it, just avoid it. But I have been known to go back to something I formally disliked and been more than pleasantly surprised.

And if I can add to the Planets discussion. I don't consider myself a Noob. But the more time goes by and the more I listen - the more I admire the Planets as a complete masterpiece of the last 100 years. So imaginative, so vibrant and engaging, so bloomin' enjoyable.


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## Winterreisender

SeptimalTritone said:


> Indeed, Webern is a bit tough. Come back to it: at first I didn't like him but now I've gotten into it more. Just focus on the sound color, be infinitely alert, and enjoy the bareness! There is expression within that bareness.
> 
> As far as the Berg, you could make that same criticism about the opening of Beethoven's ninth, and those are just descending fourths and fifths, not even arpeggios!
> 
> I'll admit I haven't even heard a single Bruckner symphony (OMG!). I need to remedy this deficiency, but how can I when there is so much great modern music to listen to! So much repertoire...


re Webern: Yes that's the most likely explanation... my tastes are currently too immature to appreciate Webern's exquisite melodies and colourful textual pallet. I'll come back to him when I have developed your level of refinement. 

re Berg: You can break all music down to a series of purely analytical constructs and that rarely does justice to what you're actually listening to (for better or for worse).

re Bruckner: The "Apocalyptic" 8th is a guilty pleasure but I avoid most of his other attempts.


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## Guest

Winterreisender said:


> my tastes are currently too immature to appreciate Webern's exquisite melodies and colourful textual pallet.


You'll get there, man.


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## Marschallin Blair

Better an attention-***** than an attention-bore, certainly; but then, some of these polls have all the instinctive charm of a Leona Helmsley, minus the good grace.


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## hpowders

Music I hate? Nothing.

Music I dislike, but will listen to occasionally:

Most Bruckner. Most Schubert. Mendelssohn symphonies (but NOT the chamber music!) Mozart string quartets and keyboard sonatas. Most Schumann. Most Richard Strauss. Most Stravinsky (except Le Sacre). Beethoven early and middle string quartets and symphonies #'s 1 and 2. Most Sibelius (except violin concerto). Most Shostakovich (except symphony #5). Most Debussy. All Samuel Barber save "Knoxville".

That still leaves PLENTY of music for me to adore!!


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## DiesIraeCX

I'm going to remove the word hate. There is music that I don't care for and music that I just can't fully appreciate.

Earlier, someone said something about their tastes being too immature to get into certain composers/music. This leads me to a question, does learning to like a music you don't care for (let's use 12-tone for the example) mean that you have mature tastes? For instance, if I tried but *couldn't* learn to like 12-tone and continued to listen to my 19th and 18th century composers, does that mean my tastes aren't mature? Or does it just mean you don't care for a certain type of music? (Please note that the 12-tone example is just that, an example.)

Ok, back to the OP, as I prefaced, I don't hate any music. However, I discovered some music through Tom Service's 50 Greatest Symphonies guide on The Guardian. I truly tried to listen to the pieces but I just couldn't like it. For instance, the two symphonies by Oliver Knussen and Lutoslawski just did not speak to me in any kind of way. I listened to Knussen's piece a couple time. I also just cannot for the life of me get into Schumann's or Liszt's music. One more thing that I've tried over and over to like is Opera, but I just can't do it. I can't get into it like I can orchestral, chamber and purely instrumental music.


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## realdealblues

Music I Hate: Rap, Hip-Hop, etc.

I dislike lots of different works and styles but the above is the only thing I literally hate.


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## SeptimalTritone

DiesIraeVIX said:


> Earlier, someone said something about their tastes being too immature to get into certain composers/music. This leads me to a question, does learning to like a music you don't care for (let's use 12-tone for the example) mean that you have mature tastes? For instance, if I tried but *couldn't* learn to like 12-tone and continued to listen to my 19th and 18th century composers, does that mean my tastes aren't mature? Or does it just mean you don't care for a certain type of music?


No, it doesn't mean you have "immature" tastes. There are always parts of art that we don't care for much, and that doesn't make us immature!

But: (and especially to Winterreisender) sometimes when you come back to something you didn't like after, say, a month break, you'll have a different mindset and may come to like it! And enjoying more music is quite enriching. But it's not worth it to do it for the sake of being "mature", but rather for the joy of exploration.


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## Andolink

I hate the insipidness of Alan Hovhaness.


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## starthrower

...next thread, please!


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## Orfeo

Music I hate? None (except ones fill with hate, ignorance, and the like).
Music I love? Plenty.
Music I like? Plenty.

Music I'll rather listen to? Depends on my mood on any given day. If it's there, (and coupled with curiosity for something new to me), then I'll take the plunge. If it's not there, I'll try on a later date (if I'll remember it, which I normally do).

And that's about it.


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## Bruce

I have to agree with many of the responses; there's not much music I actually hate. Dislike, though, is something else. But mostly the music I have come to dislike is music I've simply heard too many times, and Mozart's Eine Kleine Nachtmusik fits that bill for me. It's not bad music, but I've come to dislike it because of over-familiarity. Another category is music which I find very difficult, and invest a lot of time in, but just can't come to make any sense of it. Sessions's Violin Concerto is one of those pieces for me. There must be something to it, and I'll probably return to it several times in the future to give it more chances, but I'd have to classify it as one of those works I dislike. Another work like this is Schönberg's First Chamber Symphony, Op. 9 (actually with a key signature--in E). Or Carter's Variations, Op. 5. 

Yet a third category is music I've spent a lot of time with, and which seemed to be quite good on first listening, but after repeated listenings, I began to realize that it contained nothing that really attracted me, and actually becomes irritating for that reason. I might have heard something on the radio, or borrowed a library record (that dates me a bit), and liked what I heard enough to purchase a copy. Then after a few times, I decided I must have been smoking something the first time I heard it, because it doesn't resonate with me at all. Into this category I'd put Elgar's Dream of Gerontius, Powell's Sonata teutonica, Pärt's Miserere, and Milhaud's Second Symphony.


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## Cosmos

Hm, I can't really think of any piece I 'hate'. There are pieces that are very popular or loved that I don't see the appeal in, and I guess the question would be "what pieces do you think are overrated?"

I guess my least favorite music would be a good portion of Reger's organ output. That should be the Oxford English Dictionary's definition for the word "dull"

Addition: I really dislike Weill's Mahagonny-Songspiel. And if Jim Morrison isn't singing the Alabama Song, I don't want to go anywhere near it :lol:


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## Mahlerian

DiesIraeVIX said:


> Earlier, someone said something about their tastes being too immature to get into certain composers/music. This leads me to a question, does learning to like a music you don't care for (let's use 12-tone for the example) mean that you have mature tastes? For instance, if I tried but *couldn't* learn to like 12-tone and continued to listen to my 19th and 18th century composers, does that mean my tastes aren't mature? Or does it just mean you don't care for a certain type of music? (Please note that the 12-tone example is just that, an example.)
> 
> Ok, back to the OP, as I prefaced, I don't hate any music. However, I discovered some music through Tom Service's 50 Greatest Symphonies guide on The Guardian. I truly tried to listen to the pieces but I just couldn't like it. For instance, the two symphonies by Oliver Knussen and Lutoslawski just did not speak to me in any kind of way. I listened to Knussen's piece a couple time. I also just cannot for the life of me get into Schumann's or Liszt's music. One more thing that I've tried over and over to like is Opera, but I just can't do it. I can't get into it like I can orchestral, chamber and purely instrumental music.


No, disliking a given thing is not evidence of immaturity. People have personal tastes, after all. Inability to recognize that others can possibly see/hear something valuable in something that you dislike (something which you have not evinced here) is immaturity.

Don't feel compelled to enjoy something just because others enjoy it. Enjoy what you enjoy.


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## Vesteralen

I can not imagine what good it would do to tell people what music I hate. The only thing it would do is make people who like that music angry.

No thanks.


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## brotagonist

I have strong feelings about a lot of non-classical music genres, but I will stay with classical here, although my dislikes are less intense, and usually develop into greater appreciation over time.

I don't hate works by these composers and I have purchased a number of albums in order to try to get to know and appreciate them better, but I just cannot seem to _warmly_ warm to the French impressionist movement. By these, I mean, in particular, Debussy, Ravel and some of the predecessors and successors surrounding their times.

I put the music on and I think it's okay, even wonderful, sometimes, but I am not passionate about it. It always sounds a bit like fairground or carnival or even _Gaîté Parisienne_ can-can music, comprised of countless little scenes and images, but fewer fully developed works; of little 2-7-minute études, préludes, nocturnes, etc., but a dearth of concertos, symphonies, etc. They seem light and uncommitted. Couldn't these composers work out their ideas into full-fledged concert pieces?


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## arpeggio

With the exception of the music I hate I like everything.


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## Botec

I like Josquin and Dowland, but the 16th century (e.g. Palestrina, Tallis, Lassus, Victoria) is a bit of a closed book to me. Not very keen on Italian madrigals.

Nothing by Richard Strauss has ever really grabbed me; in fact a lot of his music somehow physically sets my teeth on edge, for no real reason I can put my finger on, except that massed violins are often involved. I read once somewhere that people often only like two of Bruckner, Mahler and Strauss. I wonder if that's generally true? Doubtful.

When starting out in my exploration of classical music a little over 20 years ago, I somehow overlooked that Brahms was among the composers who wrote some highly regarded piano concerti, and when years later I finally heard them I couldn't (and still can't!) hear what the fuss was about. It's as though my window of appreciation was missed. Makes me sad.


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## Mahlerian

Botec said:


> Nothing by Richard Strauss has ever really grabbed me; in fact a lot of his music somehow physically sets my teeth on edge, for no real reason I can put my finger on, except that massed violins are often involved. I read once somewhere that people often only like two of Bruckner, Mahler and Strauss. I wonder if that's generally true? Doubtful.


Interesting. I wouldn't say I _dislike_ Strauss, but he's not among my favorite composers, certainly not as far as instrumental music goes. Something about his lush orchestral idiom strikes me as wastefully luxuriant (can I back this up logically or consistently with the rest of my tastes? probably not).


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## sabrina

Hate? this is a word quite inappropriate for music, but there is a sort of so called music, written in whatever chromatic scales, that screeches my ears...but I still like a few of them. Others that could be described by pic/poc/pliosc/bumbum/iiiiii metal on metal friction, bleah. It's like that type of art when a blank sheet of paper that is considered statement in art. Sometimes a dot or more on that paper could even change art history.


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## Guest

DiesIraeVIX said:


> I'm going to remove the word hate. There is music that I don't care for and music that I just can't fully appreciate.
> 
> Earlier, someone said something about their tastes being too immature to get into certain composers/music. This leads me to a question, does learning to like a music you don't care for (let's use 12-tone for the example) mean that you have mature tastes? For instance, if I tried but *couldn't* learn to like 12-tone and continued to listen to my 19th and 18th century composers, does that mean my tastes aren't mature? Or does it just mean you don't care for a certain type of music? (Please note that the 12-tone example is just that, an example.)
> 
> Ok, back to the OP, as I prefaced, I don't hate any music. However, I discovered some music through Tom Service's 50 Greatest Symphonies guide on The Guardian. I truly tried to listen to the pieces but I just couldn't like it. For instance, the two symphonies by Oliver Knussen and Lutoslawski just did not speak to me in any kind of way. I listened to Knussen's piece a couple time. I also just cannot for the life of me get into Schumann's or Liszt's music. One more thing that I've tried over and over to like is Opera, but I just can't do it. I can't get into it like I can orchestral, chamber and purely instrumental music.


There are grains of truth here.

But you should still perfectly adhere to the tastes of PetrB.


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## CypressWillow

Yes, hate isn't a word I'd use in this discussion. There are particular pieces I don't like and will not ever willingly listen to again, and ditto for particular composers.
Works: Bolero, Carmina Burana, The Planets, A Musical Joke. And others.
Composers: Wagner, Elgar (mostly), Telemann, Salieri, Wagner, Ives, Cage (except for 4'33", I quite like that and can listen to it over and over), Wagner. Oh, and did I mention Wagner?


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## Mesenkomaha

I really don't like opera or any vocal/chorus is my classical music. I always skip these tracks when they come up.


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## Weston

I think we probably all know what the OP means. It doesn't mean we want to commit genocide on the entire culture from which the music sprang. It's just conversational exaggeration. 

Having said that I confess The Planets discussion puzzles me. I've been listening to classical since 1968 or so, and I love The Planets. It's not derivative. I'd be hard pressed to come up with anything remotely similar except maybe the Debussy Three Nocturnes. But to each his own. 

What I hate is Wellington's Victory. What I hate more is that Beethoven wrote it and seemed to like it. 

Dislike becomes hate when music is forced on me by circumstances.


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## PetrB

DiesIraeVIX said:


> Earlier, someone said something about their tastes being too immature to get into certain composers/music. This leads me to a question, does learning to like a music you don't care for (let's use 12-tone for the example) mean that you have mature tastes? For instance, if I tried but *couldn't* learn to like 12-tone and continued to listen to my 19th and 18th century composers, does that mean my tastes aren't mature? Or does it just mean you don't care for a certain type of music? (Please note that the 12-tone example is just that, an example.)


Having a fair truckload of training in piano performance and music theory and composition, I would say that merely 'getting' music previously not accessible to you has little or nothing to do with listener "musical maturity," so the answer to that one is a resounding "No."

Whether it is serial music, certain modern styles -- those are very average 'hurdles' over which some listeners, it seems, never manage to get over, while over years and years they, and their understanding of music 'mature.'

Musical maturing is more a matter of refinements, i.e. not being so impressed / seized with, say, only or mainly the most outwardly exciting or 'epic' pieces. It is hearing and noticing subtle things, more detail as being part of the whole of a piece, something more direct about recognizing form during the listening, 'tracking' the activity of a piece more actively while it is playing, and many other things.

None of those things in developing further 'musical sophistication' have to do with merely getting used to a particular aspect of harmonic usage.

As to getting use to / in to accepting a harmonic usage or syntax outside the common practice period, I offer first some of what I've read after treading the boards of fora for a number of years:
1.) Ravel is very weird-sounding and dissonant at first, but hang in there, because its really cool stuff.
2.) Prokofiev is atonal.(...he never wrote an atonal piece in his life.)
3.) Stravinsky destroyed classical music with the chaos and atonality of _Le Sacre du Printemps._ That, from a young teen writer who you just know has no idea that _Le Sacre du Printemps_ is not atonal, or what atonal means, just like the use of 'atonal' was used in describing Prokofiev.

And so that all goes. Thing is, almost no westerner on the planet is actually new to classical music, but is only consciously new to classical music via near subliminal exposure, perhaps as background in a restaurant or cafe when out with your parents, as background in brief bits in a television commercial, etc. I am talking exposure in our infancy here... and many later tastes -- almost as unconscious -- before you ever 'discovered' classical music and began listening to it.

_When people become conscious of classical and start investigating the music and are doing so consciously, most of the common practice repertoire, its general application of harmonic usage, is then actually already experienced and somewhat known._

I would say sophistication lies more in a listener getting enough experience and understanding of music to realize how extremely dissonant -- and strange sounding -- to the contemporary listener of other eras was the music of. o.a. Bach, Rameau, Mozart, Beethoven, Wagner, Debussy, etc.

Getting over what amounts to no more than a barely consequential speed bump to enjoy be able to access and enjoy 20th century music like the 'gnarlier' Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Stravinsky, or the first wave of serial music of the second Viennese school an the later developments in the Modern and Contemporary classical eras is more a matter of finally letting go of what is actually a preconditioned lifetime of expectations based upon common practice music. _(The history of common practice music itself is a continual progression of also 'radical' changes in harmonic usage, form, 'musical vocabularies -- but since most are preconditioned to most of the variety within the spectrum of those eras before they are even consciously listening to it, they assume it is all 'normal-sounding' music, and anything else is not_ Try, for example, some _Musica Ficta_ from the late middle-ages / early renaissance, and you might find a similar 'speed bump' in your 'getting it' similar to the supposed barriers some have for serial and other modern and contemporary classical music.

Sure, expanding your capacity to readily hear and follow some music composed later than the common practice might be in a small way a 'greater sophistication,' but it is barely anything near to that sophistication which qualifies as a listener being more truly a connoisseur vs. a listener who happily consumes music and has learned a bit -- or more -- about form or of music history.


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## mtmailey

I hate hip hop/rap music that is negative.Also i hate heavy metal sounds loud & terrible.


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## Itullian

Bennie and the Jets.


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## dgee

Music you hate - this thread is sure to end well!

I almost hate a bunch of C19 theatre music (except Wagner and a few other exceptions) but, really, I probably resent its ongoing popularity more than hate it. Old, basic, sentimental "pop music" that clogs up opera houses and ballet seasons and prevents good music getting played. We'd be better off without it. I recently deputised for a performance of Traviata and by the end I felt depleted and defeated (after just one night!) - Delibes, Massenet, Donizetti, Adam, Ponchielli, Meyerbeer, Bellini you're all in this too!


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## DiesIraeCX

PetrB said:


> Having a fair truckload of training in piano performance and music theory and composition, I would say that merely 'getting' music previously not accessible to you has little or nothing to do with listener "musical maturity," so the answer to that one is a resounding "No."
> 
> Whether it is serial music, certain modern styles -- those are very average 'hurdles' over which some listeners, it seems, never manage to get over, while over years and years they, and their understanding of music 'mature.'
> 
> Musical maturing is more a matter of refinements, i.e. not being so impressed / seized with, say, only or mainly the most outwardly exciting or 'epic' pieces. It is hearing and noticing subtle things, more detail as being part of the whole of a piece, something more direct about recognizing form during the listening, 'tracking' the activity of a piece more actively while it is playing, and many other things.
> 
> None of those things in developing further 'musical sophistication' have to do with merely getting used to a particular aspect of harmonic usage.
> 
> As to getting use to / in to accepting a harmonic usage or syntax outside the common practice period, I offer first some of what I've read after treading the boards of fora for a number of years:
> Ravel is very weird-sounding and dissonant at first, but hang in there, because its really cool stuff.
> 
> Prokofiev is atonal.(...he never wrote an atonal piece in his life.)
> 
> Stravinsky destroyed classical music with the chaos and atonality of Le Sacre du Printemps.From a young teen writer who you just know has no idea that Rite of Spring is not atonal, or what atonal means, just like the use of 'atonal' was used in describing Prokofiev.
> 
> And so that all goes. Thing is, almost no westerner on the planet is actually new to classical music, but is only consciously new to classical music via near subliminal exposure, in infancy, perhaps as background in a restaurant or cafe when out with your parents, as background in brief bits in a television commercial, etc. I am talking exposure in our infancy here... and many later tastes -- almost as unconscious -- before you ever 'discovered' classical music and began listening to it.
> 
> When people become conscious of classical and start investigating the music and are doing so consciously, most of the common practice repertoire, its general application of harmonic usage, is then actually already known.
> 
> I would say that sophistication lies more in a listener getting enough experience and understanding of music to realize how extremely dissonant -- and strange sounding -- to the contemporary listener of other eras was the music of. o.a. Bach, Rameau, Mozart, Beethoven, Wagner, Debussy, etc.
> 
> Getting over what amounts to no more than a barely consequential speed bump to enjoy be able to access and enjoy 20th century music like the 'gnarlier' Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Stravinsky, or the first wave of serial music of the second Viennese school an the later developments in the Modern and Contemporary classical eras is more a matter of finally letting go of what is actually a preconditioned lifetime of expectations based upon common practice music. _(The history of common practice music itself is a continual progression of also 'radical' changes in harmonic usage, form, 'musical vocabularies -- but since most are preconditioned to most of that before they are even consciously listening to it, they assume it is all 'normal' music, and anything else is not_ Try, for example, some _Musica Ficta_ from the late middle-ages / early renaissance, and you might find a similar 'speed bump' in your 'getting it' similar to the supposed barriers some have for serial and other modern and contemporary classical music.
> 
> Sure, expanding your capacity to readily hear and follow some music composed later than the common practice might be in a small way a 'greater sophistication,' but it is barely anything near to that sophistication which qualifies as a listener being more truly a connoisseur vs. a listener who happily consumes music and has learned a bit -- or more -- of music history.


I agree with a lot of what you wrote. I'd pretty much echo what Mahlerian wrote above, that an aspect of musical *immaturity * is an _"Inability to recognize that others can possibly see/hear something valuable in something that you dislike"_. That is, someone may *sincerely * with good intentions try and try to like a certain modern composer but at the end of the day, he/she realizes that it's not exactly his/her cup of tea.

I should add that I'm speaking from the viewpoint of enjoying music (art) rather than solely appreciating it. Rather, I have both appreciation and enjoyment in mind. For instance, to use the 12-tone as an example again, someone could fully appreciate its importance, realize how someone would enjoy it but I don't believe that musical maturity necessarily dictates that that person must enjoy it him/herself.

i.e. I love Thomas Hart Benton's art very much. I don't particularly care for a lot of Picasso's work but I fully appreciate his importance, his innovations, etc. I wouldn't be averse to reading up on Picasso's history and works. Yet, I would buy a book of Thomas Hart Benton's art for my personal enjoyment but I wouldn't buy a book of Picasso's art for my enjoyment.

I think that there is a limit to "learning to like" a certain artist or type of music. However, there should not be a limit to "learning to appreciate" a certain artist with the purpose of enriching your musical landscape and knowledge.


----------



## PetrB

DiesIraeVIX said:


> I agree with a lot of what you wrote. I'd pretty much echo what Mahlerian wrote above, that an aspect of musical *immaturity * is an _"Inability to recognize that others can possibly see/hear something valuable in something that you dislike"_. That is, someone may *sincerely * with good intentions try and try to like a certain modern composer but at the end of the day, he/she realizes that it's not exactly his/her cup of tea.
> 
> I should add that I'm speaking from the viewpoint of enjoying music (art) rather than solely appreciating it. Rather, I have both appreciation and enjoyment in mind. For instance, to use the 12-tone as an example again, someone could fully appreciate its importance, realize how someone would enjoy it but I don't believe that musical maturity necessarily dictates that that person must enjoy it him/herself.
> 
> i.e. I love Thomas Hart Benton's art very much. I don't particularly care for a lot of Picasso's work but I fully appreciate his importance, his innovations, etc. I wouldn't be averse to reading up on Picasso's history and works. Yet, I would buy a book of Thomas Hart Benton's art for my personal enjoyment but I wouldn't buy a book of Picasso's art for my enjoyment.
> 
> I think that there is a limit to "learning to like" a certain artist or type of music. However, there should not be a limit to "learning to appreciate" a certain artist with the purpose of enriching your musical landscape and knowledge.


I think there are individual limits to "learning to like," which are just that, the limits of an individual.

It would be a bit of something like moralizing, but I'll take that plunge.

Along with such an understanding as yours, comes an, "I don't care for it," or perhaps even more honestly that, "I don't care for it" would be preceded by an, "I don't get it," which makes the matter much more one of, "Not My Cuppa" vs. the dissing of that which is not understood or cared about. The music some say is awful, crap, noise, etc is not, especially since just too many, cognoscenti and general public, do find music of beauty and 'merit' in that reviled by some.

To know enough to say "Not for me." and maybe admit you just don't have the personal wherewithal _or interest enough to even look into why others find it does have merit when you just don't like it,_ is not just a measure of musical maturity, but I think an individual's personal maturity as well. If there were more who had an outlook similar to yours, there would be less of those childishly negative comments, or spewed bile pitched in the direction of the music(s) people do not care for.


----------



## Guest

DiesIrae, this is not really related to the discussion, but I'll just share with you a piece of advice based on my experience - having only liked classical music for a couple of years (less than that, actually), myself. 

Baby steps. Increments. Don't even bother trying Boulez if you can't at least appreciate Webern. And don't even worry about Webern until you feel comfortable with later Schoenberg, even some Bartok and Stravinsky. From there, bring it all as far back as Liszt and Wagner, I suppose?

Terms like "atonality" and "dissonance" may be too ambiguous for forum arguments, but for all practical purposes, think of various eras and movements as "levels of dissonance" - you don't advance to the next level if you're not comfortable with the one you're on. Schoenberg was kinda nice music, but over my head, about a year ago. And yet, here I am: my day has thus far consisted of Toshio Hosokawa's quartets and several works of Pierre Boulez. And it's been a good day, overall (musically, at least).

Edit: @ my note of "as far back as Liszt and Wagner" - your experience may be more or less than even this; my dad keeps telling me that later Beethoven is too dark and dissonant.


----------



## DiesIraeCX

arcaneholocaust said:


> DiesIrae, this is not really related to the discussion, but I'll just share with you a piece of advice based on my experience - having only liked classical music for a couple of years (less than that, actually), myself.
> 
> Baby steps. Increments. Don't even bother trying Boulez if you can't at least appreciate Webern. And don't even worry about Webern until you feel comfortable with later Schoenberg, even some Bartok and Stravinsky. From there, bring it all as far back as Liszt and Wagner, I suppose?
> 
> Terms like "atonality" and "dissonance" may be too ambiguous for forum arguments, but for all practical purposes, think of various eras and movements as "levels of dissonance" - you don't advance to the next level if you're not comfortable with the one you're on. Schoenberg was kinda nice music, but over my head, about a year ago. And yet, here I am: my day has thus far consisted of Toshio Hosokawa's quartets and several works of Pierre Boulez. And it's been a good day, overall (musically, at least).
> 
> Edit: @ my note of "as far back as Liszt and Wagner" - your experience may be more or less than even this; my dad keeps telling me that later Beethoven is too dark and dissonant.


I agree with you completely, acquainting yourself with new types of music and new composers is much easier with small increments. I can also attest to this with my personal experience. For instance, it was just in these past couple of weeks that I started *truly * listening to Mahler. I tried a few months ago but there was just a block there, I didn't understand it and I gave up in the middle of the 5th symphony. In the meantime, I started listening to Bruckner's symphonies and Berlioz's _Symphonie Fantastique_ which are both somewhat challenging after listening almost exclusively to Beethoven, Brahms, and Schubert. It was around this time that I made a TC account. I made a thread asking for advice on where to begin with Mahler. With everyone's help, I then gave him another try with fresh, open ears. I instantly fell in love with Symphony #6 "Tragic", I moved on to symphonies #2, #1, #9, and #5 and haven't looked back. I find Mahler to be among the most rewarding composers that I listen to, if not *the * most rewarding.

I'm also beginning to listen to Schoenberg's earlier works, I'm hoping that'll incrementally and naturally prepare me for some of his more daring later works. In the span of a couple weeks on this forum, I've "assimilated" Mahler and Schoenberg. That's some progress!


----------



## Fugue Meister

DiesIraeVIX said:


> I agree with you completely, acquainting yourself with new types of music and new composers is much easier with small increments. I can also attest to this with my personal experience. For instance, it was just in these past couple of weeks that I started *truly * listening to Mahler. I tried a few months ago but there was just a block there, I didn't understand it and I gave up in the middle of the 5th symphony. In the meantime, I started listening to Bruckner's symphonies and Berlioz's _Symphonie Fantastique_ which are both somewhat challenging after listening almost exclusively to Beethoven, Brahms, and Schubert. It was around this time that I made a TC account. I made a thread asking for advice on where to begin with Mahler. With everyone's help, I then gave him another try with fresh, open ears. I instantly fell in love with Symphony #6 "Tragic", I moved on to symphonies #2, #1, #9, and #5 and haven't looked back. I find Mahler to be among the most rewarding composers that I listen to, if not *the * most rewarding.
> 
> I'm also beginning to listen to Schoenberg's earlier works, I'm hoping that'll incrementally and naturally prepare me for some of his more daring later works. In the span of a couple weeks on this forum, I've "assimilated" Mahler and Schoenberg. That's some progress!


Yes but what about presently what do you still not like or haven't even attempted because you think it to be something you wouldn't really go for... I mean your post above was awesome but I don't see the dislike there.


----------



## DiesIraeCX

Fugue Meister said:


> Yes but what about presently what do you still not like or haven't even attempted because you think it to be something you wouldn't really go for... I mean your post above was awesome but I don't see the dislike there.


Haha, go back a few posts. I listed my dislikes.


----------



## Piwikiwi

brotagonist said:


> I have strong feelings about a lot of non-classical music genres, but I will stay with classical here, although my dislikes are less intense, and usually develop into greater appreciation over time.
> 
> I don't hate works by these composers and I have purchased a number of albums in order to try to get to know and appreciate them better, but I just cannot seem to _warmly_ warm to the French impressionist movement. By these, I mean, in particular, Debussy, Ravel and some of the predecessors and successors surrounding their times.
> 
> I put the music on and I think it's okay, even wonderful, sometimes, but I am not passionate about it. It always sounds a bit like fairground or carnival or even _Gaîté Parisienne_ can-can music, comprised of countless little scenes and images, but fewer fully developed works; of little 2-7-minute études, préludes, nocturnes, etc., but a dearth of concertos, symphonies, etc. They seem light and uncommitted. Couldn't these composers work out their ideas into full-fledged concert pieces?


That's funny you should say that because Ravel, Debussy and Fauré are probably my favourite composers and I have the opposite problem with a lot of "German/Austrian" composers, their work often feels bloated to me and they don't seem to be able to get to point of what they are trying to say in less than 45 minutes. Their music is the result of a conscious decision to move away from things like symphonies and concertos, and I think that is a good thing because symphonies and concertos often have a tendency to resort to certain clichés


----------



## Kilgore Trout

brotagonist said:


> I don't hate works by these composers and I have purchased a number of albums in order to try to get to know and appreciate them better, but I just cannot seem to _warmly_ warm to the French impressionist movement. By these, I mean, in particular, Debussy, Ravel and some of the predecessors and successors surrounding their times.
> 
> I put the music on and I think it's okay, even wonderful, sometimes, but I am not passionate about it. It always sounds a bit like fairground or carnival or even _Gaîté Parisienne_ can-can music, comprised of countless little scenes and images, but fewer fully developed works; of little 2-7-minute études, préludes, nocturnes, etc., but a dearth of concertos, symphonies, etc. They seem light and uncommitted. Couldn't these composers work out their ideas into full-fledged concert pieces?


Debussy, fairground music ? It seems you're confusing some of Le groupe des 6's music with all of french music of that time. There was a nationalistic defiance toward symphony, concertos and sonatas which were considerd german (bloated) forms, a general dislike of chatter and pomposity, and the will to create a national idiom that made Debussy and others work with others forms consistent with their harmonic langage, but that doesn't mean that :
1. Symphonies and large-scale forms don't exist in french music at that time : try Roussel's second symphony and Schmitt's symphony concertante (both 40 minutes pieces in 3 movements), or Koechlin's big pieces like le Buisson ardent, symphony 2, Docteur Fabricius, l'Offrande musicale, and the whole Le livre de la jungle (2 hours made of several works, some of them 30 minutes long). Try also D'Indy, Honegger and plenty others. There are also large chamber works (Koechlin's quintet and some of his sonatas, Schmitt's quintet...), several large piano cycles (Koechlin, Dupont...) and operas. And let's also not forget that at the time you're talking about, symphony and concerto was not the prefered forms, even in Germany.
2. It's "light" because it uses short forms and it is not symphonies or german stuff. There is more to a Debussy's four minutes prelude (which isn't to be taken out of context anyway) than most 40 minutes symphonies.


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## Guest

Hate may be too strong a word, but I would certainly cross the street to avoid northern soul, reggae, opera, and anything involving Mark Knopfler.


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## Guest

Which is odd when I think about it, because I don't even know what northern soul is. 

But I'm sure it's dreadful.


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## Whistler Fred

As many have said here, "hate" may be too strong an emotion in general, and particularly in the realm of classical music. That being said, there are certain pieces that I try my best to avoid, largely due to overexposure rather than due to any fault of the music itself. High on my list is Schubert's "Ave Maria," which I've played at way too many weddings and special occasions. There was a time when I played Mozart's "Haffner" Symphony (No. 35) in three concerts within a single month and got so tired of it that I swore I'd never listen to it again...but I got better!


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## science

The only sorts of music I manage to consistently dislike is "new country" and teenybopper pop. 

One of the things that puzzles me about classical music discussion online is how much we seem to enjoy hating things. It's not just rap or rock that we hate, we hate André Rieu, Lang Lang, Marc-André Hamelin, Jennifer Higdon, Eric Whitaker, late Stravinsky, Boulez, the 2nd Viennese school, Wagner, Chopin. We could even like a work of music, but once we hear it in a soap commercial, we can no longer admit to having even tolerated it. 

I often wonder why Renaissance music isn't loved more, but I guess it's a good thing, since no doubt if it ever became more popular among us we'd have to start "I hate Allegri's Miserere" threads twice a year.


----------



## Morimur

A pity. Stravinsky's late period is a favorite of mine.


----------



## science

Lope de Aguirre said:


> A pity. Stravinsky's late period is a favorite of mine.


That's ok, I guess. We can't all be the modernist élite.


----------



## Morimur

science said:


> That's ok, I guess. We can't all be the modernist élite.


You're damn right, science.


----------



## Couac Addict

PetrB said:


> Yup. zOMG, you're average!
> 
> Fact is, those pieces commonly catching the n00b's attentions aren't at all bad pieces, but they do seem to be some of a small handful (not the only two) of the pieces that catch people's imagination first.


..only because The Planets sounds like Star Wars


----------



## Cosmos

Itullian said:


> Bennie and the Jets.


Shame, I love that song!


----------



## arpeggio

*Nothing New*

We have addressed this issue many times before.

The following posts are samples of some of mine:

http://www.talkclassical.com/8239-there-great-composer-you-82.html#post611806

http://www.talkclassical.com/30356-unworthy.html#post598804

http://www.talkclassical.com/25661-were-being-mahlered-death-4.html#post465293

http://www.talkclassical.com/26853-uneven-composers.html#post498183

http://www.talkclassical.com/31808-worst-orchestral-pieces-your-2.html#post656261

http://www.talkclassical.com/28936-leat-favourite-composer-perhaps.html#post553263


----------



## dgee

gog said:


> Which is odd when I think about it, because I don't even know what northern soul is.
> 
> But I'm sure it's dreadful.


Obscure 60s soul, in the main. Oh no, sir. It's wonderful - KTF


----------



## PetrB

Lope de Aguirre said:


> You're damn right, science.


The Modernist Elite is a Limited membership: You sign up on a wait list: your name comes up for consideration if a member resigns, retires, or dies -- if under consideration, there is still a rigorous vetting process involved -- pretty much like tenured symphony chair player's positions


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## PetrB

Couac Addict said:


> ..only because The Planets sounds like Star Wars


LOL. Like Cleopatra looks like Elizabeth Taylor!


----------



## science

So I'm in this classical music store that I love and they've got tens of thousands of fine CDs they could play... and the one they have on is "My Heart Will Go On" transposed for lute.

I don't mind a lute. 

But unless I manage to restrain myself... you'll see me in the news....


----------



## presto

I like most classical music, often you have to work at the styles you initially find challenging but one form of music I just cant get to like is Lieder. 
I've tried but it just irritates me, the German language just sounds so ugly and strangely depressing. 
If it comes on the radio I have to switch it off!


----------



## PetrB

science said:


> So I'm in this classical music store that I love and they've got tens of thousands of fine CDs they could play... and the one they have on is "My Heart Will Go On" transposed for lute.
> 
> I don't mind a lute.
> 
> But unless I manage to restrain myself... you'll see me in the news....


I have a network of friends I can call on -- works rather like a 12-step group -- when those urges come up


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## Guest

Some people get into the pool an inch at a time. Some people just jump right in.


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## Lukecash12

Couac Addict said:


> ..only because The Planets sounds like Star Wars


Hey, that's a compliment in my mind. If I can picture Han and Chewie while I'm listening to Holst then there's sure to be more Holst on the horizon. I wonder if that would make for an interesting edition of Star Wars, like that version of LOTR that someone did with Wagner's Ring Cycle that went with the movies amazingly well.


----------



## Rapide

some guy said:


> Some people get into the pool an inch at a time. Some people just jump right in.


It also depends what's in the pool. Beautiful women/mermaids or dark waters with leeches.


----------



## Lukecash12

Rapide said:


> It also depends what's in the pool. Beautiful women/mermaids or dark waters with leeches.


Many times you can't see what's in the pool until you just jump.


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## science

I've read that if you kiss a leech it turns into a beautiful mermaid.


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## Guest

She turned me into a newt.


----------



## Badinerie

Lukecash12 said:


> Many times you can't see what's in the pool until you just jump.


Some people miss the pool entirely!

Hate is a too strong a word to use but generally speaking Brahms leaves me shaking my head tut tutting.

I like much Mahler, but sometimes the progressions he chooses in his Symphonies..well WTF was he thinking!


----------



## hpowders

I don't really hate any music but if forced under torture I would be screaming *DEBUSSY!! YES!! DEBUSSY!!!*

I'm allergic to perfume and perfumed music I find nauseating.


----------



## Bellinilover

I can't take Alban Berg's music, nor do I like most religious works from the Baroque period (with the exception of Handel's, that is) -- they all sound the same to me.


----------



## Fugue Meister

hpowders said:


> I don't really hate any music but if forced under torture I would be screaming *DEBUSSY!! YES!! DEBUSSY!!!*
> 
> I'm allergic to perfume and perfumed music I find nauseating.


Agreed, I don't know what it is but I don't really care for Debussy, especially his orchestral works...


----------



## Vesteralen

Fugue Meister said:


> Liszt and Schumann, could be the stars of a show called composers that absolutely suck and I don't like them. :devil:
> 
> let's hash it out...civilly of course).


Not a good start for "civilly", I'd say.....


But, hey, I did think of a piece of music I hate. The composer was Paul Anka. The year was 1975.


----------



## hpowders

Fugue Meister said:


> Agreed, I don't know what it is but I don't really care for Debussy, especially his orchestral works...


He simply puts me to sleep.


----------



## Mahlerian

I feel that "hate" is too strong a word for something that amounts more to apathy or aesthetic distaste, but I dislike quite a few things. I'm not particularly interested in talking much about them, though.


----------



## trazom

I don't hate it as much as find it very unpleasant like cough syrup or Nyquil, and that would be Saint-Saens and anything with piano music in it by Mendelssohn, especially the piano concertos, piano quartets, and solo piano. I do find the piano trios interesting, but have other favorites in that genre that I usually go to first.


----------



## Piwikiwi

hpowders said:


> He simply puts me to sleep.


You guys make me sad


----------



## aleazk

Piwikiwi said:


> You guys make me sad


Debussy is one of my favorite composers, and one of the finest composers ever.


----------



## GGluek

Hate is too strong a word, but music I've grown tired of, or never really developed a taste for include the aforementioned Eine Kline Nachtmusick, Fur Elise, Bel Canto singing, French Romantic violin concerti, some Bruckner, much Vivaldi, and the Franck Symphony in d.


----------



## PetrB

aleazk said:


> Debussy is one of my favorite composers, and one of the finest composers ever.


Too stimulating to put me to sleep, too 

On to the next negative / silly thread: 
Q: "Which great composer's / composers music puts you to sleep?"
A: "Bach. You bore me, I snore you."


----------



## Fugue Meister

Mahlerian said:


> I feel that "hate" is too strong a word for something that amounts more to apathy or aesthetic distaste, but I dislike quite a few things. I'm not particularly interested in talking much about them, though.


But my dear Mahlerian I am incredibly interested in these pieces you dislike. You don't have to discuss just list. I'll pry the rest from you slowly over time....


----------



## Fugue Meister

Piwikiwi said:


> You guys make me sad


I'm sorry to cause you distress but I agree. Debussy is better than tylenol pm. :devil:


----------



## Bradius

I don't hate any classical music. Some works I've been overexposed to I would rather not listen too (Ride of the V., New World Symph, rhapsody in B...), but I do recognize the quality of these works.

I find most opera grating & irritating. Though I like lieder, songs, oratorios & choral music. i don't hate opera though. I don't want to listen to it. I do respect it though.

I DO hate some non-classical music, so I do recognize 'hate' as a valid reaction to music. I guess for me, it takes a visceral dislike of the sound and my lack of respect for the music to get me to Hate it. For example, certian rap, pop, country...songs sound aweful to me & I do not respect the work. These I hate.


----------



## Cosmos

Forgot to mention that I second (or third) Debussy. His orchestral music is nice, I guess, but too quiet. His piano music is just dull.

Another addition: Berlioz is the pinnacle of boredom.


----------



## hpowders

Piwikiwi said:


> You guys make me sad


Yeah, but I like European football. That's something, no?


----------



## hpowders

Fugue Meister said:


> I'm sorry to cause you distress but I agree. Debussy is better than tylenol pm. :devil:


Works for me. Two minutes into any of the piano preludes, I'm in dreamland!


----------



## Conky

Jennifer Higdon's Concerto for Orchestra. It was the opening piece for a performance of Beethoven's Emperor concerto that I went to see, and it (the Higdon concerto) is the only piece I've seen live that I have flatly refused to applaud. I just sat there glaring at the stage, until one of my friends nudged me and said, "Are you alright?"

No offense to anyone that likes Higdon, of course. Maybe it's just because I'm a musical noob, but I don't think so.


----------



## Mahlerian

Conky said:


> Jennifer Higdon's Concerto for Orchestra. It was the opening piece for a performance of Beethoven's Emperor concerto that I went to see, and it (the Higdon concerto) is the only piece I've seen live that I have flatly refused to applaud. I just sat there glaring at the stage, until one of my friends nudged me and said, "Are you alright?"
> 
> No offense to anyone that likes Higdon, of course. Maybe it's just because I'm a musical noob, but I don't think so.


I think it's a lousy piece, personally. You're not alone.

Tom Service calls the piece "noisily impressive but superficial and synthetic".

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2004/apr/08/classicalmusicandopera1

Debussy I consider among my favorites, though, so I'm not joining in up there.


----------



## KenOC

I have tried SO hard to like Higdon's music...


----------



## Piwikiwi

hpowders said:


> Yeah, but I like European football. That's something, no?


I don't really care for football


----------



## Haydn man

I don't hate any classical music but you can keep The 1812 Overture.
It's just a great big mess


----------



## Kilgore Trout

Cosmos said:


> His piano music is just dull.


Debussy's piano music dull. DULL. DULL ?

I guess it's just too subtle and dense for some ears who are used to romantic bombast and easy melodies. Or you're just listening to the wrongs interpretations.


----------



## PetrB

KenOC said:


> I have tried SO hard to like Higdon's music...


The few things I've heard by this composer sound like a catalogue of near now cliche timbrel colors via a combination of normal and extended techniques, in a harmless and vaguely pleasant or 'pretty' fairly tonal language, all dressed up as if to be a bit more 'modern-contemporary' than it actually is, and they have been patchworks of a series of episodes which seem arbitrarily made and strung together. I recall some piece for a smaller ensemble from near ten years ago, and thinking, "If you took away all the advanced techniques timbrel colorations, this bunch of notes are completely uninteresting." Ergo, for me, what I've heard to date is altogether pretty damned banal if not downright vacuous stuff.

Higdon's career may prove that writing somewhat pretty-sounding very 'safe' contemporary music can pay off (Eric Whitacre, anyone?.)

But when there is there is so little there, or less than a little, or 'nothing there,' really... you can't even find anything concrete to dislike, except to rant about _what it does not have_


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## neoshredder

hpowders said:


> Works for me. Two minutes into any of the piano preludes, I'm in dreamland!


And what lovely dreams you would have listening to Debussy.


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## dgee

I wonder if anyone really actually likes Higdon (or Bates or the myriad composers of that fairly tonal, bland ilk) or if they just keep getting commissions so music organisations can put on a premiere that can be tolerated by even their fustiest subsciber. It's so apologetic, makes me cringe

OK rant over


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## Lukecash12

Kilgore Trout said:


> Debussy's piano music dull. DULL. DULL ?
> 
> I guess it's just too subtle and dense for some ears who are used to romantic bombast and easy melodies. Or you're just listening to the wrongs interpretations.


So much is wrapped up in expectations. You have to come to the composer on his own terms to see what's actually there.


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## Cosmos

Kilgore Trout said:


> Debussy's piano music dull. DULL. DULL ?
> 
> I guess it's just too subtle and dense for some ears who are used to romantic bombast and easy melodies. Or you're just listening to the wrongs interpretations.


Nah, I like music that doesn't have "easy" melodies, and is dense or whatnot. I just don't like Debussy.


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## OldFashionedGirl

Well, I don't hate any kind of classical music, but I can't digest contemporary music. I think is just matter of time until my ears will accustum to that music.


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## Morimur

Cosmos said:


> Nah, I like music that doesn't have "easy" melodies, and is dense or whatnot. I just don't like Debussy.


You philistine! How dare you not like Debussy! You're lucky I am not king of the world, Cosmos.


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## Fugue Meister

Lope de Aguirre said:


> You philistine! How dare you not like Debussy! You're lucky I am not king of the world, Cosmos.


I suppose I'm lucky too, because as I've said before I don't care for him either... (although unlike hpowders I think the best of what he did was for the piano) Orchestrally he just doesn't do it for me at all.

I think your a philistine if you don't like Bach or Beethoven.


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## Morimur

Fugue Meister said:


> I suppose I'm lucky too, because as I've said before I don't care for him either... (although unlike hpowders I think the best of what he did was for the piano) Orchestrally he just doesn't do it for me at all.
> 
> I think your a philistine if you don't like Bach or Beethoven.


Love both, especially Bach.


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## neoshredder

OldFashionedGirl said:


> Well, I don't hate any kind of classical music, but I can't digest contemporary music. I think is just matter of time until my ears will accustum to that music.


You would think. It was the opposite for me. I was more open to modern music early on. The more I listened, the more it tired my ears. It's a nice change of pace at times. But it gets old quickly.


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## hpowders

I hate all Borodin, even though he and I were both in the chemistry field.


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## hpowders

Fugue Meister said:


> I suppose I'm lucky too, because as I've said before I don't care for him either... (although unlike hpowders I think the best of what he did was for the piano) Orchestrally he just doesn't do it for me at all.
> 
> I think your a philistine if you don't like Bach or Beethoven.


If it's not Mendelssohn, Haydn or Mozart these days, I'm simply not interested.


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## Fugue Meister

hpowders said:


> I hate all Borodin, even though he and I were both in the chemistry field.


That's a shame I feel as though he never really realized his full potential as a composer... Well I suppose that's something me and hpowders finally disagree on. Borodin's quite new to me and I've been exploring his works full speed. What is it about him you dislike hpow, (can I call you hpow for short?)


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## musicphotogAnimal

(c)rap, death metal, manufactured pop music (boy bands, anything modern) and that composer that has the initials RW (I'm sorry, I loathe Wagner). None of those genres of music will darken my doorstep.


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## hpowders

Let me add all Vivaldi and all D. Scarlatti keyboard sonatas to my hated music list.


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## Fugue Meister

hpowders said:


> Let me add all Vivaldi and all D. Scarlatti keyboard sonatas to my hated music list.


What?.. Inconceivable sir... Inconceivable!


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## Chronochromie

hpowders said:


> Let me add all Vivaldi and all D. Scarlatti keyboard sonatas to my hated music list.


So you listened to every Scarlatti sonata and lived?? Impressive.


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## violadude

The only classical I really hate is pop-classical composers like Karl Jenkins (as many members here might know, my least favorite composer). Sometimes Eric Whiticare is kind of like that too but sometimes his music can be pretty at least. Karl Jenkin's music has sounded stupid every time I've listened to it. 

Other than that, there is classical music I don't care for but none that I hate. I don't really care many of the obscure Romantic Symphonists that people find here and there. I think the Romantic style has the potential to wear very thin in the hands of less talented composers, maybe more so than other musical styles.

Other than that non-classical music I hate would probably just be the Niki Minaj's and the Justin Bieber's of the world. Any other non-classical artist that I might not like I don't come in contact with enough to hate them.


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## Giordano

I hate inconsequential and pretentious music.


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## echo

Dufay said:


> I hate inconsequential and pretentious music.


I second that with big dose of generic


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## Serge

Now, let's see... Remember really hating something of Messiaen, most of the overwrought Mahler symphonies, and waltzes. Yes, I genuinely hate waltzes - with a very few exceptions.


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## hpowders

Der Leiermann said:


> So you listened to every Scarlatti sonata and lived?? Impressive.


He actually wrote only two sonatas; a fast one and a slow one with 300 variations on each, called additional sonatas.
Sort of what Vivaldi did with concertos.


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## hpowders

Fugue Meister said:


> What?.. Inconceivable sir... Inconceivable!


What can I say? Their music gives me a headache and bores me to tears. Simply an honest evaluation.
Listen to their music all you like. Plenty of music around for everyones' tastes.


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## Hjoi

I like any music with depth and profound meaning. Music that is unique, fresh and not derivative of other music. I dislike music that is an extension of the composer's ego. Music that is pretentious and is composed to validate their inadequacies or intellectual superiority. I hate most of Mozart's music. That guy's music is idiomatic, one dimensional and self absorbed trite.


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## Cosmos

Hjoi said:


> I like any music with depth and profound meaning. Music that is unique, fresh and not derivative of other music. I dislike music that is an extension of the composer's ego. Music that is pretentious and is composed to validate their inadequacies or intellectual superiority. I hate most of Mozart's music. That guy's music is idiomatic, one dimensional and self absorbed trite.


Ah, I used to think that way. To each his own, but I personally think you should give Mozart a second chance someday


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## Potiphera

Music I can't listen to is Jazz!


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## brotagonist

My relationship with jazz ranges from a restrained enjoyment to a chafed indifference.

I have less patience for blues; little patience for rhythm and blues and soul; and a general aversion to reggae, hip hop and rap. Folk, sappy country, singer-songwriter, easy listening, show music, soundtracks, Jesus pop and other horrors, too, can give me bad migraines.


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## violadude

brotagonist said:


> My relationship with jazz ranges from a restrained enjoyment to a chafed indifference.
> 
> I have less patience for blues; little patience for rhythm and blues and soul; and a general aversion to reggae, hip hop and rap. Folk, sappy country, singer-songwriter, easy listening, show music, soundtracks, Jesus pop and other horrors, too, can give me bad migraines.


I love Jazz, but some of those other genres you mention can be pretty headache-inducing, agreed.


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## brotagonist

I had a friend who was heavily into jazz, so I used to listen more when he was alive (until the mid-'90s). Today, I tire of it quickly and need a long reset period before I am able to hear it again, but I do have a few dozen albums that I think are pretty essential to a basic collection of _better_ music.

Yeah, those other genres  I hope nobody takes it personally, but those are just not genres that have ever stirred pleasure in me (but I can name at least one album in a few of those categories that I do like despite the style).


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## Morimur

I am more partial to Classical but Jazz also has its diamonds.


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## brotagonist

Lope de Aguirre said:


> I am more partial to Classical than Jazz but the latter is likewise replete with dimonds.


Is that a Freudian slip: "replete with dimonds"? I guess those are diamonds that don't shine so brightly


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## Morimur

brotagonist said:


> Is that a Freudian slip: "replete with dimonds"? I guess those are diamonds that don't shine so brightly


Late night. Sentence re-written.


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## mtmailey

View attachment 49091
I am not sure if they had a funeral yet for hip hop music yet.


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## Serge

mtmailey said:


> View attachment 49091
> I am not sure if they had a funeral yet for hip hop music yet.


What would they play at the hip-hop funerals? Some Chopin?


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## hpowders

"I hate most of Mozart's music". I don't think I've ever seen anyone on TC write that before. I simply can't conceive of it.
Wow!


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## Posie

Right now, I don't think 'HATE' is too strong a word for my feelings about pop-opera.

...and though I LOVE LOVE LOVE children, I hate being shown child prodigies on television/Youtube.

(I know I'm stating the obvious, but sometimes I just have to vent!)

...also I'm sick of Pachelbel's Canon and anything by the Eagles.


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## Fugue Meister

marinasabina said:


> Right now, I don't think 'HATE' is too strong a word for my feelings about pop-opera.
> 
> ...and though I LOVE LOVE LOVE children, I hate being shown child prodigies on television/Youtube.
> 
> (I know I'm stating the obvious, but sometimes I just have to vent!)
> 
> ...also I'm sick of Pachelbel's Canon and anything by the Eagles.


That's funny I'm the opposite way with kids I can't really stand them but I'm fascinated by prodigies of any sort.

2cd hating the Eagles though...


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## Morimur

I have an intense dislike for Alicia Keys' music.


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## Posie

Lope de Aguirre said:


> I have an intense dislike for Alicia Keys' music.


Alicia Please! That pick was a surprise. :lol:


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## hpowders

I hate Death Metal.


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## echo

Garth Brooks is good (allegedly)


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## stevens

Strongely dislikes:

Pianomusik:
1) Debussy's "Golliwogg's Cakewalk"
2) Liszt Totentanz
3) Chopin those Polonaise´s and some valses
4) Charles Valentin Alkan - Le Festin d'Esope :devil:
5) "Variation on a theme by" ...(Paganini, etc)

Orchestra:

All those Bolero, Offenbach, Johann Strauss valses etc, 96% of all music written after 1930 

Hate (Yes, hate :devil: )
Rap, Hiphop, Swedish pop, Indie, Mainstream RnB, Rolling Stones, Bruce Springsteen..


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## Sloe

I dislike this:


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## stevens

Sloe said:


> I dislike this:


THAT reminds me of "Swedish house maffia" or the swedish "Avicii". I prefere that dinosaure video by far!


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## Antiquarian

I hate Rap music. Not only the musical part, but also the antisocial messages it conveys.


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## PetrB

Dufay said:


> I hate inconsequential and pretentious music.





echo said:


> I second that with big dose of generic


LOL. Must be practicing up for a career in politics or at least a PR spin control consultant for politicians or corporations... sounds grand and important, says nothing at all specific, totally non-committal and safer 'n' houses


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## PetrB

Serge said:


> Now, let's see... waltzes. Yes, I genuinely hate waltzes - with a very few exceptions.


I know, who thought up a dance-form in 3 when we've only got two legs -- what a dummy that one must've been!


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## hpowders

I don't know....I have a CD of Fritz Reiner conducting Johann Strauss waltzes with the Chicago Symphony and it sounds pretty convincing. That waltz king was a genius, IMO.


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## Itullian

Mozart's piano concertos on fortepiano.

You can barely hear the freakin thing!!
Feeling please!


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## PetrB

Lope de Aguirre said:


> I have an intense dislike for Alicia Keys' music.


I'm thinking that might be a guy thing with that sub-genre of 'girl music.' I was on a long break in a coffee shop where the staff were allowed to bring in and play what they wanted, and a Tori Amos disc played through and then went on repeat. I then felt impelled to go to the counter and ask nicely if they would change it to another disc-- I think saying she is a superb musician (because she is) -- but that I was beginning to feel like I'd been abducted and held against my will at the Lilith Fair


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## PetrB

hpowders said:


> I don't know....I have a CD of Fritz Reiner conducting Johann Strauss waltzes with the Chicago Symphony and it sounds pretty convincing. That waltz king was a genius, IMO.


Yeah, but whipped cream and sugar, in larger doses, is artery clogging and life-threatening -- apart from the fact that playing enough of it might have your sound repro system getting Type 2 Diabetes.


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## Triplets

Fugue Meister said:


> Everyone posts tons of threads about "music we like" or "which is your favorite" (yes I'm very guilty too) but what are some pieces of music by any composer that you loath. These should be works that you've given a fair chance or you used to like but were just "young and stupid", they can be from a composer you love as well but let's kick around some negativity. :devil:
> 
> I'll start it off since I've seen it mentioned a few times earlier I detest Holst's "the Planets" just utter nonsense. I also can't stand Eine Kleine Nachtmusik of Mozart's way too much exposure in pop culture.
> Oh and Liszt and Schumann, could be the stars of a show called composers that absolutely suck and I don't like them. :devil:
> 
> Alright, let's here some of yours (oh and it's okay to think I'm wrong, let's hash it out...civilly of course).


I'm with you on Liszt, but I love the Planets and I love Schumann, having bought 4 different sets of the Symphonies in the past year alone.
My two favorite dislikes are Bax and Glazunov. I have accumulated a lot of works by both of them, always being told by a record reviewer that they were masterpieces, and they just don't do anything for me but hit the snooze button.


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## violadude

Triplets said:


> My two favorite dislikes are Bax and *Glazunov*. I have accumulated a lot of works by both of them, always being told by a record reviewer that they were masterpieces, and they just don't do anything for me but hit the snooze button.


Don't read this post, Huilunsoittaja!


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## Guest

Antiquarian said:


> I hate Rap music. Not only the musical part, but also the antisocial messages it conveys.


You do know what 'rap' music is? If you think it conveys an antisocial message, I suspect you don't.


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## MoonlightSonata

SeptimalTritone said:


> And I like the moonlight sonata!


I like the Moonlight Sonata too! Very much, in fact...
What I don't like... Can't say I'm fond of Cage, or Boulez for that matter. I like or tolerate just about everyone else.


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## dgee

MoonlightSonata said:


> I like the Moonlight Sonata too! Very much, in fact...
> What I don't like... Can't say I'm fond of Cage, or Boulez for that matter. I like or tolerate just about everyone else.


Just about everyone else? Like Lachenmann or Xenakis or Parmegiani? Or is it just the crystalline textures of Boulez and Cage you don't like? Or is it just that they're the modern boogey men you know? Jokes! Cage and Boulez don't seem like especially intomidating composers to me. But it was kinda funny - check out the cheeky chaps I've listed above tho, should be an eye-opener

Bob Dylan and Tom Waits - that's some stuff I don't like


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## PetrB

dgee said:


> Bob Dylan and Tom Waits - that's some stuff I don't like


That makes me wonder if you'd have more than a little trouble with Hans Hotter's rendering of _Die Winterreise_... hmmm.


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## Headphone Hermit

Cosmos said:


> Forgot to mention that I second (or third) Debussy. His orchestral music is nice, I guess, but too quiet. His piano music is just dull.
> 
> Another addition: Berlioz is the pinnacle of boredom.


Ha - ha - ha - ha!

Debussy dismissed because his music is quiet, Berlioz as being boring. Fellow TC-ers, here is the voice of a real connoiseur!


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## PetrB

Headphone Hermit said:


> Ha - ha - ha - ha!
> 
> Debussy dismissed because his music is quiet, Berlioz as being boring. Fellow TC-ers, here is the voice of a real connoisseur!


It will be more than fascinating to hear from this highly discerning listener with such a highly developed and pointed aesthetic what, exactly, between subtle and quiet Debussy and over-the top big, bold and often Very Loud Berlioz there is that pushes all the right buttons for this connoisseur!

Final Fantasy? The Legend of Zelda? Bohuslav Martinů's personal stamp of neoclassical, the spectralists? ...awaiting with bated breath.


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## dgee

PetrB said:


> That makes me wonder if you'd have more than a little trouble with Hans Hotter's rendering of _Die Winterreise_... hmmm.


Oh, the Zender! It's so mad I love it. Tried the real thing - the tunes were there but no tone clusters or wind machine?


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## EdwardBast

Bruckner symphonies and some of Mahler's make me want to open a vein — sorry.


----------



## jimeonji

I hate screamo. I have tried my very best to like screamo but something about the screaming just irritates my ears. 

On the topic of the Moonlight, I can't say it like it very much, but not the point of hatred. A combination of its overratedness and my annoyance with it when I learned it pretty much kept me from liking it.


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## schuberkovich




----------



## Torkelburger

I dislike the music of John Adams and John Harbison.


----------



## violadude

schuberkovich said:


>


Waiter, I'll have some cheese with that corn, please.


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## hpowders

Perhaps, it's performances you hate and NOT the music.

I love Bach keyboard works on harpsichord. I HATE Bach keyboard works on piano.

So, I do not hate Bach's music. Simply the piano which it is played on, which to me sounds all wrong.


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## MoonlightSonata

dgee said:


> Just about everyone else? Like Lachenmann or Xenakis or Parmegiani? Or is it just the crystalline textures of Boulez and Cage you don't like? Or is it just that they're the modern boogey men you know? Jokes! Cage and Boulez don't seem like especially intomidating composers to me. But it was kinda funny - check out the cheeky chaps I've listed above tho, should be an eye-opener
> 
> Bob Dylan and Tom Waits - that's some stuff I don't like


I haven't heard Lachenmann or Parmegiani, but I do like Xenakis, as well as Schnittke and Penderecki among others. It's just personal taste about Boulez and Cage.


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## ArtMusic

MoonlightSonata said:


> I haven't heard Lachenmann or Parmegiani, but I do like Xenakis, as well as Schnittke and Penderecki among others. It's just personal taste about Boulez and Cage.


Of those names you mentioned, Schnittke is probably worth exploring more. His symphonies are an interesting mix of atonal and other styles. I don't think Cage wrote a symphony, it would be interesting to see what he may have come up with.


----------

