# Who was the greatest Heldentenor ever?



## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Surely this has been discussed before, but no matter. I'm curious who you all would consider the greatest Heldentenor ever and why.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I don't think any of us have heard the greatest Heldentenor _ever_!


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## Parsifal98 (Apr 29, 2020)

Easy. It starts with _Lauritz_ and ends with _Melchior_.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Parsifal98 said:


> Easy. It starts with _Lauritz_ and ends with _Melchior_.


While there have been many exceptional Wagnerian tenors, this is the only answer.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Obviously, we can only talk about the greatest recorded Heldentenor. As others have mentioned, by near-universal consensus, this is Lauritz Melchoir. In terms of the best heldentenor recorded extensively in stereo sound, it is probably, by general consensus, Jon Vickers.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

imo, James King. Runners up are Set Svanholm and the aforementioned Lauritz Melchior.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

It’s a toss-up between Melchior and Vogt! Not!!:lol:


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

By the third message this thread has already run its course.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Jean de Reszke.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

wkasimer said:


> Jean de Reszke.


Did you go backstage and get his autograph?


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Did you go backstage and get his autograph?


No, but I supervised the Mapleson cylinders.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Well, this didn't go like I thought. :lol:
Yes, Melchior. But what about Set Svanholm, Max Lorenz, or anyone else? How do they rank?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

adriesba said:


> Well, this didn't go like I thought. :lol:
> Yes, Melchior. But what about Set Svanholm, Max Lorenz, or anyone else? How do they rank?


Like Escalades next to a RR SUV.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

I feel obliged to give a shout out to Paul Franz. His repertoire was enormous, and he sang it all in French, but he must have been one hell of a Siegfried:






Besides, everything sounds better in French.

And while he was a little too stentorian for my taste (and everything does NOT sound better in Russian), there's Nikandr Khanayev. The voice is certainly not as attractive as Melchior's or Franz's, but I suspect that it was a lot louder:


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

We can't know much about signers who weren't recorded, but among the recorded it has to be Melchior. Singing Tristan over 200 times and Siegfried over 100 times plus hundreds of Lohengrins and Tannhausers and Otellos combined, and still sounding like this at age 61 is simply unbelievable:





Not only his power and longevity, but his musicianship, dramatic intensity, and depth of characterization were unparalleled. All of these qualities were enabled by his ease of tonal emission and balanced registers, which allowed him to do virtually anything he wanted. This spontaneity truly sets him apart from other tenors. His work with Flagstad in the 1936 Reiner _Tristan_ is to me the pinnacle of Wagnerian singing on record.

Now, if you want a list of great heldentenors, that's another matter. But there is only one candidate for greatest on record, imo.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Parsifal98 said:


> Easy. It starts with _Lauritz_ and ends with _Melchior_.


You're no fun....


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

I just came across this, and there is this response: "You could have Melchior up there and there'd be people saying, too static, don't like his lower register, doesn't provide enough colour in his voice, whatever."
What do you think?


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

hammeredklavier said:


> I just came across this, and there is this response: "You could have Melchior up there and there'd be people saying, too static, don't like his lower register, doesn't provide enough colour in his voice, whatever.




Only if you have Van Gogh's ear for music would you think Schager is in the same league as Melchior.


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## Parsifal98 (Apr 29, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> I just came across this, and there is this response: "You could have Melchior up there and there'd be people saying, too static, don't like his lower register, doesn't provide enough colour in his voice, whatever."
> What do you think?


Methinks Schager shot his voice.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Peter Hofmann could have been one if he had not ruined his voice.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Barbebleu said:


> Only if you have Van Gogh's ear for music would you think Schager is in the same league as Melchior.


But is it wrong to root for the underdogs? Schager and Salieri?


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

For this question he's an also ran but I think that Windgassen does things really worth listening to! I head him first on the old Royal Family of Opera set doing, I think, one of the Siegfried ditties....not sure, not running upstairs to check. Dismissive young snob that I was I gave him " no Melchior, no Vickers" and went on. But awhile back I was youtubing and heard his video of In Fernem Land and loved it! He had an intensity that was kind of mesmerizing to me and the voice really stayed together with a good top.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

hammeredklavier said:


> But is it wrong to root for the underdogs? Schager and Salieri?


Yes, it is. Especially when the underdog is a mangy cur, and when those doing the rooting are nobodies trying to be somebodies by scribbling ignorant nonsense on internet forums. This isn't the little leagues, and little Andreas doesn't need our hugs to boost his self-esteem.

Apparently, when Schager was fresh on the scene, he was a better singer than he is now, but that isn't saying much. That clip of him singing Siegfried's forging song - a poor demonstration of vocal prowess in any case, since it calls for nothing but a big noise - is six years old, and he's been hard at work since then working on his wobble. If you were actually interested in this subject you would listen to him and to some other noted tenors, including Melchior, before suggesting that some anonymous social media butterfly had any musical perceptions worth sharing.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ScottK said:


> For this question he's an also ran but I think that Windgassen does things really worth listening to! I head him first on the old Royal Family of Opera set doing, I think, one of the Siegfried ditties....not sure, not running upstairs to check. Dismissive young snob that I was I gave him " no Melchior, no Vickers" and went on. But awhile back I was youtubing and heard his video of In Fernem Land and loved it! He had an intensity that was kind of mesmerizing to me and the voice really stayed together with a good top.


I admire Windgassen without really liking (though not detesting) the sound he makes. Not a great voice but a strong, serviceable one that held up well under Wagnerian pressure, employed by a fine artist. Still, I can't tolerate act two of _Parsifal_ as rendered by him and that mezzoish-sopranoish emitter of squeezed pneumatic strangulations, Martha Modl.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I admire Windgassen without really liking (though not detesting) the sound he makes. Not a great voice but a strong, serviceable one that held up well under Wagnerian pressure, employed by a fine artist. Still, I can't tolerate act two of _Parsifal_ as rendered by him and that mezzoish-sopranoish emitter of squeezed pneumatic strangulations, Martha Modl.


Miaow. Showing your claws again W! Love it! :lol:


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Yes, it is. Especially when the underdog is a mangy cur, and when those doing the rooting are nobodies trying to be somebodies by scribbling ignorant nonsense on internet forums. This isn't the little leagues, and little Andreas doesn't need our hugs to boost his self-esteem.
> 
> Apparently, when Schager was fresh on the scene, he was a better singer than he is now, but that isn't saying much. That clip of him singing Siegfried's forging song - a poor demonstration of vocal prowess in any case, since it calls for nothing but a big noise - is six years old, and he's been hard at work since then working on his wobble. If you were actually interested in this subject you would listen to him and to some other noted tenors, including Melchior, before suggesting that some anonymous social media butterfly had any musical perceptions worth sharing.


As you know I heard Schager in 2013 when he subbed for Lance 'the yodeller' Ryan in Siegfried, Act One of Barenboim's anniversary Ring in Berlin. He was adequate at best but, gawd save us, he sounded like Melchior compared to Ryan. Martha Mödl would sound like Melchior compared to Ryan! Actually, I think I would sound like Melchior compared to Ryan.
Although I think I would probably sound more like Mödl than Ryan. 
Or am I complicating matters again?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> As you know I heard Schager in 2013 when he subbed for Lance 'the yodeller' Ryan in Siegfried, Act One of Barenboim's anniversary Ring in Berlin. He was adequate at best but, gawd save us, he sounded like Melchior compared to Ryan. Martha Mödl would sound like Melchior compared to Ryan! I would sound like Mödl compared to Ryan.
> 
> Admit it, you thought I was going to say Melchior there!:lol:


Actually I wasn't sure what you were going to say, and I'm not sure what you just said. But carry on...


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> Yes, it is. Especially when the underdog is a mangy cur, and when those doing the rooting are nobodies trying to be somebodies by scribbling ignorant nonsense on internet forums. This isn't the little leagues, and little Andreas doesn't need our hugs to boost his self-esteem.
> 
> Apparently, when Schager was fresh on the scene, he was a better singer than he is now, but that isn't saying much. That clip of him singing Siegfried's forging song - a poor demonstration of vocal prowess in any case, since it calls for nothing but a big noise - is six years old, and he's been hard at work since then working on his wobble. If you were actually interested in this subject you would listen to him and to some other noted tenors, including Melchior, before suggesting that some anonymous social media butterfly had any musical perceptions worth sharing.


I'm unclear....how do you feel????

Take away the "greatest"conversation and acknowledging that most do NOT hold onto the vocal goods very long, my first reaction to Schager was IF ONLY he had been singing the last act of Parsifal instead of Vogt a few years back! Act one, young fool, okay. Last act, when literally the only sounds I'd ever heard were Melchior and Vickers, Vogt sounded like sponge bob. But....I take it Schager does not sound like this anymore.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ScottK said:


> I'm unclear....how do you feel????
> 
> Take away the "greatest"conversation and acknowledging that most do NOT hold onto the vocal goods very long, my first reaction to Schager was IF ONLY he had been singing the last act of Parsifal instead of Vogt a few years back! Act one, young fool, okay. Last act, when literally the only sounds I'd ever heard were Melchior and Vickers, Vogt sounded like sponge bob. But....I take it Schager does not sound like this anymore.


Apparently this is what Schager sounds like now:






I guess it could be fun counting the beats in his wobble.

Vogt, the John Denver of opera (sorry, John), shouldn't even be in the conversation. It's about heldentenors, after all.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> Apparently this is what Schager sounds like now:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Loved the comment "Well...the pianist is doing a good job"!!!


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## PaulFranz (May 7, 2019)

For me, it's Paul Franz by a country mile. I fail to hear anything special about Melchior on record. I find his voice extremely ugly and unbalanced, with everything above the passaggio sounding strangled and artificially bright. He made a career almost entirely in Wagner because they put up with idiosyncratic, ugly sounds as long as you're loud, and the two great traditional singing schools, the Italian and French, are not as prized as declamation and size.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

PaulFranz said:


> For me, it's Paul Franz by a country mile. I fail to hear anything special about Melchior on record. I find his voice extremely ugly and unbalanced, with everything above the passaggio sounding strangled and artificially bright. He made a career almost entirely in Wagner because they put up with idiosyncratic, ugly sounds as long as you're loud, and the two great traditional singing schools, the Italian and French, are not as prized as declamation and size.


That's all fine, PaulFranz, but just wait till LauritzMelchior sees this!


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

PaulFranz said:


> For me, it's Paul Franz by a country mile. I fail to hear anything special about Melchior on record. I find his voice extremely ugly and unbalanced, with everything above the passaggio sounding strangled and artificially bright. He made a career almost entirely in Wagner because they put up with idiosyncratic, ugly sounds as long as you're loud, and the two great traditional singing schools, the Italian and French, are not as prized as declamation and size.


The OP refers to the 'Greatest Heldentenor'. Franz is a pleasant enough lyric tenor with that typically French timbre but in no wise could he be considered a 'heldentenor'.

You must have been listening to a different Melchior than the one to whom I've been listening and your sweeping generalisation about what we Wagner fans 'put up with' is quite laughable really.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Barbebleu said:


> The OP refers to the 'Greatest Heldentenor'. Franz is a pleasant enough lyric tenor with that typically French timbre but in no wise could he be considered a 'heldentenor'.


To be fair, Franz had a successful international career and sang all the major Wagnerian roles. So he must have done _something_ right.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Barbebleu said:


> Franz is pleasant


So, in short, Franz is pleasant in a bad way, Schager is disturbing in a bad way, Melchior is disturbing in a good way.



Barbebleu said:


> your sweeping generalisation about what we Wagner fans 'put up with' is quite laughable really


which brings back the old memories of 'those threads', ie. topics like _"how can you listen to Wagner's music without forgiving him?"_. I'm still finding them comical, as I'm revisiting them now.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

From his recordings and reputation I can agree that Paul Franz was a superb tenor who was undoubtedly excellent in heldentenor repertoire. That said, his recordings are, as far as I know, all in French. No composer set the German language with greater sensitivity to its sounds and their emotive possibilities than Wagner, so that much Wagner sung in translation isn't quite the real thing. If Franz recorded anything in German I'd be happy to hear about it.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Jacques Urlus. And I wonder what Ernst Kraus would have sounded like with more modern sonics.


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

Legend has it that Melchior was the greatest heldentenor ever, and this appears to be born out by the recordings we have of him, despite the limited sound. He was a once in a century singing freak of nature. 

A bit more modern was Jon Vickers though he never attempted Siegfried as it lay too high for his voice.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

marlow said:


> Legend has it that Melchior was the greatest heldentenor ever, and this appears to be born out by the recordings we have of him, despite the limited sound. He was a once in a century singing freak of nature.


That opinion is pretty universal, but I don't think that it bears scrutiny. While I agree with PaulFranz about the excellence of Franz and disagree with him about Melchior, the latter was not as unique as some would suppose. I thought that he was until I was educated by a much older collector of recordings, who introduced me to countless exceptional singers who have been largely forgotten.

Those interested in the history of singing who have a tolerance for early acoustic recordings should spend some time looking for recordings of the Heldentenors of that era. Many of them are available on YouTube, including Ivan Ershov, Richard Schubert, Erik Schmedes, Ernst Kraus, Urlus, Carl Burrian, and others.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Would Herman Jadlowker be considered a _heldentenor_? There's only recordings of him singing music from *Lohengrin* and *Rienzi*.






Let it be said at the outset that I'm not putting him up for the title!


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

MAS said:


> Would Herman Jadlowker be considered a _heldentenor_?


Sure, a tenor held en high esteem.


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## eblackadder (10 mo ago)

Melchior most certainly.


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## PaulFranz (May 7, 2019)

wkasimer said:


> That opinion is pretty universal, but I don't think that it bears scrutiny. While I agree with PaulFranz about the excellence of Franz and disagree with him about Melchior, the latter was not as unique as some would suppose. I thought that he was until I was educated by a much older collector of recordings, who introduced me to countless exceptional singers who have been largely forgotten.
> 
> Those interested in the history of singing who have a tolerance for early acoustic recordings should spend some time looking for recordings of the Heldentenors of that era. Many of them are available on YouTube, including Ivan Ershov, Richard Schubert, Erik Schmedes, Ernst Kraus, Urlus, Carl Burrian, and others.


Winkelmann would be my #2 choice for a Heldentenor, and he sang in German! Those pre-1860-born singers really had a totally different technique and ease--I never cease to be amazed by the Pattis, Belhommes, Battistinis, Winkelmanns, Walters, Albanis, De Reszkes, Gailhards, Escalaïses, Torresellas, Sembriches, Plançons, etc.

To the musical genius who called Paul Franz a LYRIC tenor: he was actually a dramatic coloratura soprano.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

I am the musical genius to whom you refer and as far as I am concerned Franz is not a true heldentenor. His voice just sounds too lightweight. It’s just my opinion so there’s no need to be rude. I think he sounds like a French Klaus Florian Vogt.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Barbebleu said:


> I am the musical genius to whom you refer and as far as I am concerned Franz is not a true heldentenor. His voice just sounds too lightweight.


He may sound "lightweight", but only to ears that have grown accustomed to modern Wagnerian tenors who sing as though their heads are about to explode. Wagnerian tenorizing does not have to sound ugly, although based on the past century of experience, it's easy to think otherwise. Because Franz's technique was flawless, or nearly so, he makes singing sound easy. He is one of the singers I most wish I could have heard live.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

MAS said:


> Would Herman Jadlowker be considered a _heldentenor_? There's only recordings of him singing music from *Lohengrin* and *Rienzi*.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


More of a spinto tenor imo, able to sing both lighter and heavier rep as needed (there is no such thing as a heldentenor that sings Rossini rep).


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

wkasimer said:


> He may sound "lightweight", but only to ears that have grown accustomed to modern Wagnerian tenors who sing as though their heads are about to explode. Wagnerian tenorizing does not have to sound ugly, although based on the past century of experience, it's easy to think otherwise. Because Franz's technique was flawless, or nearly so, he makes singing sound easy. He is one of the singers I most wish I could have heard live.


When you say modern Wagnerian tenors from which date do you take your starting point? Thirties? Forties? Earlier? Later?


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Barbebleu said:


> When you say modern Wagnerian tenors from which date do you take your starting point? Thirties? Forties? Earlier? Later?


There have been dreadful, hideous-sounding Wagnerian tenors for a very long time - for some of them, it's pretty clear that they sing Wagner because no one would tolerate them in anything else. But I'm thinking about most of those who've been abusing Wagner's tenor roles since about 1980.

Yes, I know, there have been a few decent ones - Heppner, Winbergh, and Seiffert have given some pretty good performances - but more often, we've had to tolerate some pretty dire singing.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Can't disagree. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## PaulFranz (May 7, 2019)

wkasimer said:


> Yes, I know, there have been a few decent ones - Heppner, Winbergh, and Seiffert have given some pretty good performances - but more often, we've had to tolerate some pretty dire singing.


I suspect this may be another unpopular opinion, but I liked Siegfried Jerusalem in the heaviest roles during his prime. I mean, in the Barenboim/Kupfer Ring, he was the only tolerable voice. I wouldn't compare him to any good singers before WWII, but I like his big, dark tone and evenness, despite the hoarse, shouty high notes.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

PaulFranz said:


> I suspect this may be another unpopular opinion, but I liked Siegfried Jerusalem in the heaviest roles during his prime. I mean, in the Barenboim/Kupfer Ring, he was the only tolerable voice. I wouldn't compare him to any good singers before WWII, but I like his big, dark tone and evenness, despite the hoarse, shouty high notes.


You're not alone. Jerusalem's upper range may have been squillo-challenged, but in addition to an attractive timbre, he was also a far more musical singer than most of his contemporaries (and some of his predecessors). He always sang in tune and with accurate rhythm, and knew how to shape a phrase musically.

My favorite example is Lohengrin's arrival, which is acapella, on the Abbado recording. With most tenors, you can't really tell what key it's in, or what the time signature is - only Jerusalem makes it apparent.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I was hugely impressed with Heppner's' Tristan but it was his first. Did he last well as a heldentenor and did the voice survive his huge weight loss?


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I was hugely impressed with Heppner's' Tristan but it was his first. Did he last well as a heldentenor and did the voice survive his huge weight loss?


He had vocal troubles mid-career, but I'm not sure it was because of Wagnerian efforts.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I was hugely impressed with Heppner's' Tristan but it was his first. Did he last well as a heldentenor and did the voice survive his huge weight loss?


He suffered from more than one vocal crises in his career. Some blamed repertoire. He was reluctant to discuss it as I remember. From an LA Times article, 2010 :

The real challenge, of course, will be keeping his vocal travails at bay. The subject understandably makes him uncomfortable. "It happens," he said flatly. "There have been some not-great moments in my more recent past. I'm working through it."

Though he acknowledges and even sympathizes with the public's interest in his troubles, he prefers not to dwell on the issue. "I've been taking some very big steps to deal with those things," he said. "And I feel I need to leave them unspecified. It's not just vocal. There's a lot of things that go into it. And I'm dealing with the stuff because I need to be dealing with it."

The source of the singer's difficulties remains unclear, though there is no shortage of speculation. "It was a gorgeous voice when he was younger, and the Ahab showed how good he can be," Anne Midgette, the music critic of the Washington Post, wrote in an e-mail. "But I think he made ill-informed repertory choices that led to a lot of problems."

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2010-nov-14-la-ca-ben-heppner-20101114-story.html


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Bonetan said:


> He suffered from more than one vocal crises in his career. Some blamed repertoire. He was reluctant to discuss it as I remember. From an LA Times article, 2010 :
> 
> The real challenge, of course, will be keeping his vocal travails at bay. The subject understandably makes him uncomfortable. "It happens," he said flatly. "There have been some not-great moments in my more recent past. I'm working through it."
> 
> ...


I recall something about gastroesophageal reflux as a cause of some of the problems.

I was lucky with Heppner - I saw him a number of times at the Met, with the BSO, and in recital, and never witnessed one of the bad nights. His Lohengrin in the Wilson production was magnificent. Some of the bad nights were presumably pretty bad, but some were exaggerated. I particularly recall his first Met broadcast of Tristan, which came at the end of a long run of the opera; Heppner cracked a couple of times in Act 3, and I saw a number of people online who went a bit bonkers over it, declaring him a phony as a Wagnerian.

I don't think that repertoire choices per se were the biggest problem, but his late-career concentration on Wagner was a mistake, at least in terms of his longevity. I think that he'd have lasted longer if he'd mixed fewer Wagner performances with more French dramatic repertoire (where he was superb), some of the Verdi roles, and even Mozart (IIRC, his Met debut was as a spectacular Idomeneo). And he should have insisted on cuts to at least some Tristan performances; I believe that there were cuts to at least some of his first run in Seattle, but after that I think that they were *all* uncut, and he sang a *lot* of Tristans over the next decade. The first Met run, I think, had eight performances in 21 days, all uncut, which is probably not healthy for any tenor. Even Melchior didn't sing that many Tristans in that short a period, and Melchior never sang an uncut Tristan - not once in his entire career.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

wkasimer said:


> I recall something about gastroesophageal reflux as a cause of some of the problems.
> 
> I was lucky with Heppner - I saw him a number of times at the Met, with the BSO, and in recital, and never witnessed one of the bad nights. His Lohengrin in the Wilson production was magnificent. Some of the bad nights were presumably pretty bad, but some were exaggerated. I particularly recall his first Met broadcast of Tristan, which came at the end of a long run of the opera; Heppner cracked a couple of times in Act 3, and I saw a number of people online who went a bit bonkers over it, declaring him a phony as a Wagnerian.
> 
> I don't think that repertoire choices per se were the biggest problem, but his late-career concentration on Wagner was a mistake, at least in terms of his longevity. I think that he'd have lasted longer if he'd mixed fewer Wagner performances with more French dramatic repertoire (where he was superb), some of the Verdi roles, and even Mozart (IIRC, his Met debut was as a spectacular Idomeneo). And he should have insisted on cuts to at least some Tristan performances; I believe that there were cuts to at least some of his first run in Seattle, but after that I think that they were *all* uncut, and he sang a *lot* of Tristans over the next decade. The first Met run, I think, had eight performances in 21 days, all uncut, which is probably not healthy for any tenor. Even Melchior didn't sing that many Tristans in that short a period, and Melchior never sang an uncut Tristan - not once in his entire career.


Thanks for filling me in everyone. I loved him in Tristan. He and Eaglen could really really sing that murderous music back in the early days. They are doing it again in Seattle next season but I am reluctant to ruin great memories. He wasn't attractive onstage but you liked him as a character.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Thanks for filling me in everyone. I loved him in Tristan. He and Eaglen could really really sing that murderous music back in the early days. They are doing it again in Seattle next season but I am reluctant to ruin great memories. He wasn't attractive onstage but you liked him as a character.


Are you saying that Jane Eaglen is still singing? I thought she had retired from the stage. Has she lost weight - at least enough to be able to move around onstage? That _Tristan_ DVD from the Met is just ghastly to look at - drab sets, static directing, obese singers - despite some pretty good sounds from her and Heppner, who was pretty bulky himself. I'm generally tolerant of plus-sized singers - we have to be - but I would hesitate to go and see that pair without some assurances that what I'd see would look something like a romantic story.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Are you saying that Jane Eaglen is still singing? I thought she had retired from the stage. Has she lost weight - at least enough to be able to move around onstage? That _Tristan_ DVD from the Met is just ghastly to look at - drab sets, static directing, obese singers - despite some pretty good sounds from her and Heppner, who was pretty bulky himself. I'm generally tolerant of plus-sized singers - we have to be - but I would hesitate to go and see that pair without some assurances that what I'd see would look something like a romantic story.


No, it's a different cast (Heppner is retired, and I'm pretty sure that Eaglen is, too). Stefan Vinke is Tristan, and the Isolde I've never heard of.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

wkasimer said:


> No, it's a different cast (Heppner is retired, and I'm pretty sure that Eaglen is, too). Stefan Vinke is Tristan, and the Isolde I've never heard of.


Ah... Sounds ominous.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

wkasimer said:


> No, it's a different cast (Heppner is retired, and I'm pretty sure that Eaglen is, too). Stefan Vinke is Tristan, and the Isolde I've never heard of.


No Eaglen has been the jewel in the crown at N Eng. Conservatory as a teacher for at least a decade. Mary Elizabeth Williams, a fine Verdi singer is Isolde. She was wonderful as Abagaille and Leonore but Isolde is a different role altogether. In Verdi the orchestra is your friend, but in Wagner you battle the orchestra I think. I always wondered why the Met and Chicago never hired her as difficult as Verdi is to cast these days.


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## aussiebushman (Apr 21, 2018)

Not sure if he would qualify as the "greatest Heldentenor" but I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Franz Volker.. The following is an extract from a Blog by Edmund St. Austell:

"His first great impression was made as a Wagnerian, and so it seems appropriate to begin with his superb rendition of "Walter's Prize Song," from Die Meistersinger Von Nürnberg, an opera so difficult for the tenor that Melchior, to take but one example, would not sing it" Here is a recording of the Prize Song:






Personally, I'm a fan of Volker, as much for his flexibility and ability to transcent a variety of styles, not the least of which is Lieder


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

aussiebushman said:


> Not sure if he would qualify as the "greatest Heldentenor" but I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Franz Volker.


A great singer certainly, but it's hard to call him the "greatest Heldentenor" when he never sang Siegfried, Tristan, or Tannhauser.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Wagner isn't really my field, and, though I have recordings of all the mature works from *Der fliegende Holländer* onwards, I don't have mutiple recordings. Whilst bowing to the knowledge of those who have more knowledge of heldentenors than I and therefore giving the crown to Melchior, I'd just say that from my limited experience of Wagner recordings, Vickers is my favourite, but then he never sang Siegfried or Tannhäuser, so maybe he doesn't count.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Wagner isn't really my field, and, though I have recordings of all the mature works from *Der fliegende Holläander* onwards, I don't have mutiple recordings. Whilst bowing to the knowledge of those who have more knowledge of heldentenors than I and therefore giving the crown to Melcghior, I'd just say that from my limited experience of Wagner recordings, Vickers is my favourite, but then he never sang Siegfried or Tannhäuser, so maybe he doesn't count.


I'd count Vickers. A great Siegmund, a powerful Tristan, and a superb Parsifal, not to mention Otello... It's enough.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Wagner isn't really my field, and, though I have recordings of all the mature works from *Der fliegende Holländer* onwards, I don't have mutiple recordings. Whilst bowing to the knowledge of those who have more knowledge of heldentenors than I and therefore giving the crown to Melchior, I'd just say that from my limited experience of Wagner recordings, Vickers is my favourite, but then he never sang Siegfried or Tannhäuser, so maybe he doesn't count.


Vickers for sure! Wagner at the Met in my time hasn't had anyone close. James King had considerable merits and even though I found him dull as a singer, Heppner had a convincing voice. But I don't esteem either of those two on the same plain as Vickers. I don't know Kaufman's career well enough...I know Lohengrin and Parsifal are in there... and I think there are no other viable names. To paint the bleak picture, I've seen Parsifal twice; first with Vickers and second with...Vogt!

Will Crutchfield did a comparative opera news article on four singers he thought contenders to be reckoned the most successful Tristan of the last century....Urlus, Melchior, Windgassen and Vickers.....pretty sure I've got them right, its been awhile. Since it was Crutchfield we know he established some criteria (note to Stefan Zucker!) I read it on general interest and as a Vickers and Melchior fan but not with much knowledge of Tristan. I remember a criticism of Melchiors singing of one section being along the line of "...did he ever actually learn the notes?" however close I am, the clear point was that he was attacking Melchiors discipline. After much consideration he thought that Vickers emerged at the head of the pack.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ScottK said:


> Vickers for sure! Wagner at the Met in my time hasn't had anyone close. James King had considerable merits and even though I found him dull as a singer, Heppner had a convincing voice. But I don't esteem either of those two on the same plain as Vickers. I don't know Kaufman's career well enough...I know Lohengrin and Parsifal are in there... and I think there are no other viable names. To paint the bleak picture, I've seen Parsifal twice; first with Vickers and second with...Vogt!
> 
> Will Crutchfield did a comparative opera news article on four singers he thought contenders to be reckoned the most successful Tristan of the last century....Urlus, Melchior, Windgassen and Vickers.....pretty sure I've got them right, its been awhile. Since it was Crutchfield we know he established some criteria (note to Stefan Zucker!) I read it on general interest and as a Vickers and Melchior fan but not with much knowledge of Tristan. I remember a criticism of Melchiors singing of one section being along the line of "...did he ever actually learn the notes?" however close I am, the clear point was that he was attacking Melchiors discipline. After much consideration he thought that Vickers emerged at the head of the pack.


Melchior could sometimes be a little free with notes and rhythm - in particuler you'll notice him rushing when he gets excited - but this has been exaggerated.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> Melchior could sometimes be a little free with notes and rhythm - in particuler you'll notice him rushing when he gets excited - but this has been exaggerated.


I gave a peak and saw the article but could not read it because I was not a subscriber. If you are, and are not familiar with it, I'm sure you'd find it worthwhile.


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Woodduck -("... free with notes and rhythm ...") - HMM, sounds like one of my favorite parallels; in this instance to Artur Schnabel/pianist, who could also be "guilty" of the same. Of course, the RESULTS of a slight push from Melchior/Schnabel never detracted from their overall mastery/greatness, in their, two areas, IMHO.


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Scott, Woodduck, et. al. - Ever heard-of some old reviews from High Fidelity, and such (concerning Melchior)? ... Here's an excerpt from Oct. 1976, from Conrad L. Osborne/Melchior as Tristan: Crowning Glory of the Wagnerian Golden Age. ... -> "I imagine that few lovers of singing will deny Melchior's superiority in realizing the heroic aspects of Wagner's tenor roles, if only because no other voice of which we have extensive evidence has been capable of repeatedly and reliably fulfilling the demands of the more brilliant, strenuous pages of the scores. But as the present performance (Tristan & Isolde from the Met/1941 - my note, in specifics) reminds us, this reliability was based on the most thoroughgoing classical technical discipline, in terms of both sheer vocal mechanics and shaping of the vocal gestures. However much the vocal line of Tristan might emerge from the harmonic and orchestral fabric, Melchior sings it just as he would (and did) that of Meyerbeer, Leoncavallo or Verdi - as the melodic raison d'etre of the writing, realized primarily through a perfectly-sustained legato and the renewing power of the messa di voce (swell and diminish of the tone), and through a subtle sensitivity to the relationship between the vocal line and the accompaniment." ... That's a beginning, and there's more ....


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

(Melchior/Osborne review) - ... "Thus, some two-thirds of the lengthy Liebesnacht episode is sung in degrees of half-voice -- something that may not be immediately recognizable to listeners conditioned by latter-day singers to think of soft singing as a 'special effect', rather than as simply the quieter side of an integrated continuum. From this basis, Melchior opens out into the forte moments with an absolutely even augmentation of intensity." ... Well, there are other points to be made, esp. in the Third Act ... "... Melchior adds ... the complete realization of a character's emotional and physical condition (an extreme one) through the verbal and musical text." .... You get the idea, I hope, about how-remarkably this gentleman could accomplish so much, in any, given musical context of a certain sort.


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

Woodduck said:


> I'd count Vickers. A great Siegmund, a powerful Tristan, and a superb Parsifal, not to mention Otello... It's enough.


Vickers was a singer who certainly picked his roles and harvested his resources. He could be difficult - he never got on with Solti, for example and he wouldn't sing Tristan for Karajan until he was ready. He appears to have been one of the very few singers who actually called the tune to Karajan and survived! He could also sing Don Jose, Don Carlo, Pagluacci and Samson, as well as filing his voice down to sing Handel. Great singer.


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

Of course there was also Ernst Kozub who was Culshaw's 'our Siegfried' for the Decca Ring but never actually made it. Quite a voice as Siegmund. Tune in at about 1:00






Sadly he died young in 1971 (aged 47) in Bad Soden, having only performed his last Tannhäuser in Italy three weeks before his death.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

marlow said:


> Vickers was a singer who certainly picked his roles and harvested his resources. He could be difficult - he never got on with Solti, for example and he wouldn't sing Tristan for Karajan until he was ready. He appears to have been one of the very few singers who actually called the tune to Karajan and survived! He could also sing Don Jose, Don Carlo, Pagluacci and Samson, as well as filing his voice down to sing Handel. Great singer.


My only objection to Vickers was the over working of the musical line. Not always, but when he did it felt like every line was a Mesa Di voce! But Jenufa, Fidelio, Walkure... Some of my greatest moments!

My opinion has long been that most tenors who sing Otello successfully will end up with that as their signature role....DelMonaco, Domingo, Vinay, Martinelli. Vickers had about five or six signature roles. Even if Grimes heads the list, Tristan, Sigmund, Florestan, Canio, Otello, Aeneas...all were his in his day!


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

marlow said:


> Of course there was also Ernst Kozub who was Culshaw's 'our Siegfried' for the Decca Ring but never actually made it. Quite a voice as Siegmund. Tune in at about 1:00
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes!!! He is my favorite Siegmund after I discovered this recording. It's a pity he didn't get to record Siegfried in the Decca Ring, but Solti apparently worked with him quite a bit (at Covent Garden). That 1965 *Der Ring des Nibelungen *is a treasure, but the *Die Walküre* is very special because of Kozub.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

ScottK said:


> My only objection to Vickers was the over working of the musical line. Not always, but when he did it felt like every line was a Mesa Di voce! But Jenufa, Fidelio, Walkure... Some of my greatest moments!
> 
> My opinion has long been that most tenors who sing Otello successfully will end up with that as their signature role....DelMonaco, Domingo, Vinay, Martinelli. Vickers had about five or six signature roles. Even if Grimes heads the list, Tristan, Sigmund, Florestan, Canio, Otello, Aeneas...all were his in his day!


Not to mention Giasone in Cherubini's *Medea*.


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

MAS said:


> Yes!!! He is my favorite Siegmund after I discovered this recording. It's a pity he didn't get to record Siegfried in the Decca Ring, but Solti apparently worked with him quite a bit (at Covent Garden). That 1965 *Der Ring des Nibelungen *is a treasure, but the *Die Walküre* is very special because of Kozub.


Solti in his autobiography says that Kozub had a problem in 'mastering text'. I assume he means by that he had a problem in remembering words and music together. He says he later had the same problem at Bayreuth with Reiner Goldberg.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

marlow said:


> Solti in his autobiography says that Kozub had a problem in 'mastering text'. I assume he means by that he had a problem in remembering words and music together. He says he later had the same problem at Bayreuth with Reiner Goldberg.


That makes sense, as John Culshaw, in his *Ring Resounding*, mentions her was "unprepared," despite both he and Solti working with him. But, in a recording environment, he surely could've used a score?


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

MAS said:


> That makes sense, as John Culshaw, in his *Ring Resounding*, mentions her was "unprepared," despite both he and Solti working with him. But, in a recording environment, he surely could've used a score?


It's possible that he wasn't adept at reading music - he wouldn't be the first singer for whom that was the case.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

wkasimer said:


> It's possible that he wasn't adept at reading music - he wouldn't be the first singer for whom that was the case.


Yeah, I was surprised to learn that Pavarotti, for one, couldn't. Conversely, it is perhaps more difficult to learn from just listening.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

MAS said:


> Yeah, I was surprised to learn that Pavarotti, for one, couldn't.


I believe that Pinza was also not able to read music with any facility.



> Conversely, it is perhaps more difficult to learn from just listening.


I think that it's an individual thing. I've sung with different groups over the years, and I've known a lot of people who learn easily by ear, but I find it nearly impossible to learn vocal parts without the music in front of me.


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

MAS said:


> That makes sense, as John Culshaw, in his *Ring Resounding*, mentions her was "unprepared," despite both he and Solti working with him. But, in a recording environment, he surely could've used a score?


The problem appears that he simply hadn't put the time in to learn a very difficult part due to other priorities.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

marlow said:


> The problem appears that he simply hadn't put the time in to learn a very difficult part due to other priorities.


Kozub was apparently in great demand throughout Europe for the parts that he *did* know.


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

MAS said:


> Yeah, I was surprised to learn that Pavarotti, for one, couldn't. Conversely, it is perhaps more difficult to learn from just listening.


I think that is a myth. In an interview in 2005 with Jeremy Paxman on the BBC, Pavarotti rejected the allegation that he could not read music, although he acknowledged he did not read orchestral scores. He had several years of music tuition so it is inconceivable that he could not read music. In the video of Verdi's Requiem (Karajan) he has the music in front of him.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

marlow said:


> I think that is a myth. In an interview in 2005 with Jeremy Paxman on the BBC, Pavarotti rejected the allegation that he could not read music, although he acknowledged he did not read orchestral scores. He had several years of music tuition so it is inconceivable that he could not read music. In the video of Verdi's Requiem (Karajan) he has the music in front of him.


There's a difference between being able to follow along in a printed piece of music and being able to learn a part from it.


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

wkasimer said:


> There's a difference between being able to follow along in a printed piece of music and being able to learn a part from it.


But I do know plenty of singers who can read music but can't read an orchestral score. We are probably talking about the extent here.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

wkasimer said:


> There's a difference between being able to follow along in a printed piece of music and being able to learn a part from it.


I agree. Many years ago, when I sang in church choirs, I couldn't possibly have figured out my part just by sight reading the music. But I still needed to have the score in hand, not just for the words, but also for the rhythms and at least a general sense of the melodic rise and fall.

No doubt Pavarotti was more accomplished than that. But you still make a valid distinction.


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

MAS said:


> Not to mention Giasone in Cherubini's *Medea*.


And Parsifal Of course


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

My father argued this with me and pointed out in a TV documentary Sutherland and Pavarotti *discussing the music*, with score in hand, at the end of the addio duet in Rigoletto. Want to know the musical complexity they were discussing????............."...oh yes....I see......you sing addio *THEN* I sing addio" Verdi must have been so gratified.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

marlow said:


> I think that is a myth. In an interview in 2005 with Jeremy Paxman on the BBC, Pavarotti rejected the allegation that he could not read music, although he acknowledged he did not read orchestral scores. He had several years of music tuition so it is inconceivable that he could not read music. In the video of Verdi's Requiem (Karajan) he has the music in front of him.


That's news to me. When he was hired for *Aida* in San Francisco, he arrived without having learnt the part so he had to have considerable help. But, he could've just not studied, which was also unprofessional.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

ScottK said:


> My father argued this with me and pointed out in a TV documentary Sutherland and Pavarotti *discussing the music*, with score in hand, at the end of the addio duet in Rigoletto. Want to know the musical complexity they were discussing????............."...oh yes....I see......you sing addio *THEN* I sing addio" Verdi must have been so gratified.


Now that sounds like him!


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

MAS said:


> Not to mention Giasone in Cherubini's *Medea*.


I knew he sang it but didn't know it was a high spot!


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## aussiebushman (Apr 21, 2018)

Back onto the original question about Heldentenors, am I out of line asking why no one has mentioned Jess Thomas?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

aussiebushman said:


> Jess Thomas?






Jess Thomas talks about young Heldentenors


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

aussiebushman said:


> Back onto the original question about Heldentenors, am I out of line asking why no one has mentioned Jess Thomas?


good: yes
one of the best: no


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> good: yes
> one of the best: no


I like Thomas as Lohengrin and Parsifal. His timbre was soft-grained and lacked metal and squillo, making him less effective as Siegfried and Tristan.


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

Woodduck said:


> I like Thomas as Lohengrin and Parsifal. His timbre was soft-grained and lacked metal and squillo, making him less effective as Siegfried and Tristan.


Although his voice was not particularly large, there was a burly quality that lent him credibility as teutonic heroes. But where he really excels is in the many lyrical passages in Siegfried, bringing a sweetness of tone that you almost never hear in Wagner. In the recording of Siegfried reviewers remarked at the time how the character came through as a young boy. Of course he ha£ the advantage of actually looking the parts he played as well.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

ScottK said:


> I knew he sang it but didn't know it was a high spot!


Vickers actualy said that singing with Callas was one of the greatest privileges of his career and that she and Wieland Wagner were the two most important and influential figures in post-WWII opera. He sang Giasone to her Medea in Dallas, London, Epidaurus in Greece and at La Scala. She wanted him to sing Pollione to her final Normas in Paris, but he declined because of the top C in Pollione's aria. He did eventually sing the role to Caballé's Norma in Orange, but minus the top C.


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

This is a bit special






Vickers was, apparently, feared at rehearsals by other artists as he not only knew his part but he knew theirs too and could be impatient with anyone who had not studied their part properly!


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

marlow said:


> This is a bit special
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's no doubt one of the reasons he and Callas had so much admiration for each other.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I like Thomas as Lohengrin and Parsifal. His timbre was soft-grained and lacked metal and squillo, making him less effective as Siegfried and Tristan.


It's impressive that he manages to sing like that without losing the core of the sound the way "heldentenors" today do, but all the same, I prefer my heldentenors with a bit more "umph!" (ex: Ramon Vinay brings a kind of biting, Italianate intensity to Wagner that satisfies me more than even legends like Melchior and Svanholm).


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

aussiebushman said:


> Back onto the original question about Heldentenors, am I out of line asking why no one has mentioned Jess Thomas?


I've always liked his Lohengrin. I was early in paying attention to Wagner when his Siegfried at the Met in the early seventies, got something like this from the NY times....it was hard to tell who was trying to make the ugly sounds, Siegfried or the dwarf... that's hard to shake from the memory. I'm sure we'd have plenty of work for him today....(never heard that one before!)


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

ScottK said:


> I've always liked his Lohengrin. I was early in paying attention to Wagner when his Siegfried at the Met in the early seventies, got something like this from the NY times....it was hard to tell who was trying to make the ugly sounds, Siegfried or the dwarf... that's hard to shake from the memory. I'm sure we'd have plenty of work for him today....(never heard that one before!)


I think that was the 1975 Ring cycle; I remember listening to the broadcast, recording it on my cheap Panasonic cassette player, and listening to it many times until I could afford an actual recording of the opera.

Indeed, Thomas was pretty bad that day - by 1975, he'd sung a lot of performances of too-heavy Wagnerian roles and his voice was pretty worn out. But in his defense, the Mime was Ragnar Ulfung, a far better singer than most people who've sung Mime over the years.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

wkasimer
Ragnar Ulfung! I remember him for a work that is far from Wagner - except it's in German: *Die Fledermaus*, in which he sang Alfred. At one point, he accompanied himself with a couple of spoons! He also sang a wonderful Loge in another season and Mime, of course, in yet another.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

MAS said:


> Wkasimer
> Ragnar Ulfung! I remember him for a work that is far from Wagner - except it's in German: *Die Fledermaus*, in which he sang Alfred. At one point, he accompanied himself with a couple of spoons! He also sang a wonderful Loge in another season and Mime, of course, in yet another.


At the Met, he sang mostly character parts - Mime, Herod, Captain in Wozzeck, Monostatos - IIRC he sang more varied and lyric repertoire in Europe.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

wkasimer said:


> At the Met, he sang mostly character parts - Mime, Herod, Captain in Wozzeck, Monostatos - IIRC he sang more varied and lyric repertoire in Europe.


I always thought of Ulfung as a pretty considerable name, but as a kind of performer with his own niche...not lead, not comprimario, kind of in between. And you weren't alone!.....I just lost my homemade cassette of Boccanegra with Wixell and Tucker within the last decade!!


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## aussiebushman (Apr 21, 2018)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> It's impressive that he manages to sing like that without losing the core of the sound the way "heldentenors" today do, but all the same, I prefer my heldentenors with a bit more "umph!" (ex: Ramon Vinay brings a kind of biting, Italianate intensity to Wagner that satisfies me more than even legends like Melchior and Svanholm).


Ramon Vinay? - I knew you were a person of good taste!

Not too many Wagner roles but those he sang were legendary:
Lohengrin (Sawallisch/Thomas, Silja, Varnay, Crass) - Philips
Parsifal (Krauss/Mödl, London, Weber, Uhde, Greindl) - Arlecchino
Parsifal (Knappertsbusch/Mödl, Fischer-Dieskau, Greindl) - Myto
Der Ring des Nibelungen (Keilberth/Mödl, Resnik, Hotter, Windgassen, Uhde, Weber) - Melodram
Der Ring des Nibelungen (Krauss/Varnay, Hotter, Resnik, Greindl, Malaniuk) - Gala
Tannhäuser (Keilberth/Brouwenstijn, Fischer-Dieskau, Greindl)- Melodram
Tristan und Isolde (Jochum/Varnay, Neidlinger, Weber, Malaniuk) - Melodram
Wagner - Tristan und Isolde (Karajan/Mödl, Weber, Hotter, Malaniuk) - Myto

http://www.heldentenor.narod.ru/tenor/Vinay53.mp3
http://www.heldentenor.narod.ru/tenor/VV62.mp3


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

aussiebushman said:


> Ramon Vinay? - I knew you were a person of good taste!
> 
> Not too many Wagner roles but those he sang were legendary:
> Lohengrin (Sawallisch/Thomas, Silja, Varnay, Crass) - Philips


He's excellent here, but of course, he sings Telramund...


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

My favorite Wagnerian Tenors, in order....Helden or not!

1 - Lauritz Melchior
2 - Jon Vickers (2nd, only as a Wagnerian)
3 - James King
4 - Rene Kollo (primarily based on one, wonderful Lohengrin)
5 - Ernst Kozub
6 - Siegfried Jerusalem
7 - James McCracken (Good Tannhauser...the man missed his calling!)
8 - Wolfgang Windgassen


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## PaulFranz (May 7, 2019)

I really love Khanaev, but I'm not sure how much of his repertoire was really Wagner. He also blew his voice out relatively young.

Isidoro Fagoaga was wonderful.

Fagoaga and Khanaev were both the kind of giant tenor that turned his power and weight into squillo, not effort and darkness.

In Khanaev's recorded Siegfried scene, Peregudov's Mime sounds as heroic as he does, funnily enough. Maybe that was a friendly recording to big sounds. Peregudov had a really strong voice, though.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

PaulFranz said:


> I really love Khanaev, but I'm not sure how much of his repertoire was really Wagner. He also blew his voice out relatively young.
> Isidoro Fagoaga was wonderful.
> Fagoaga and Khanaev were both the kind of giant tenor that turned his power and weight into squillo, not effort and darkness.
> In Khanaev's recorded Siegfried scene, Peregudov's Mime sounds as heroic as he does, funnily enough. Maybe that was a friendly recording to big sounds. Peregudov had a really strong voice, though.


Whatabout PaulFranz?


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## PaulFranz (May 7, 2019)

hammeredklavier said:


> Whatabout PaulFranz?


Never heard of him.


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## Kundry0013 (9 mo ago)

Melchior and Lorenz are the cream of the crop for me. In 2nd place are Vinay, Vickers, Volker, Suthaus, Jess Thomas, Konya and Windgassen. I would include Gerald McKee. I like his Siegfried, but his crooning makes me cringe


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

Just listening to Domingo in Siegfried and Tristan. Of course he never sang them on stage. Siegfried somewhat high for him.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

marlow said:


> Just listening to Domingo in Siegfried and Tristan. Of course he never sang them on stage. Siegfried somewhat high for him.
> 
> View attachment 167454


Domingo's complete Tristan, made with Nina Stemme back when she was still a decent singer, is actually quite good, considering that he learned the part just to record it.


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Domingo's complete Tristan, made with Nina Stemme back when she was still a decent singer, is actually quite good, considering that he learned the part just to record it.


Nice, Woodduck! Well, if it's "Tristan", there's always ... "that man"/Melchior, and maybe I've posted a review (by Conrad L. Osborne) about the subtleties and exceptional "outpourings" of the fine Dane, who's probably still unmatched, ESPECIALLY in his partnerships with Ms. Flagstad. ... BTW, I think Ms. Stemme is a Finn, and I've seen her, on PBS shows, around Christmastime, singing with choirs. Certainly a nice TALENT, but if there's ever a comparison with Flagstad (in Tristan), well ... enough unsaid.


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

89Koechel said:


> Nice, Woodduck! Well, if it's "Tristan", there's always ... "that man"/Melchior, and maybe I've posted a review (by Conrad L. Osborne) about the subtleties and exceptional "outpourings" of the fine Dane, who's probably still unmatched, ESPECIALLY in his partnerships with Ms. Flagstad. ... BTW, I think Ms. Stemme is a Finn, and I've seen her, on PBS shows, around Christmastime, singing with choirs. Certainly a nice TALENT, but if there's ever a comparison with Flagstad (in Tristan), well ... enough unsaid.


note the thread is about heldentenors not sopranos!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

89Koechel said:


> Nice, Woodduck! Well, if it's "Tristan", there's always ... "that man"/Melchior, and maybe I've posted a review (by Conrad L. Osborne) about the subtleties and exceptional "outpourings" of the fine Dane, who's probably still unmatched, ESPECIALLY in his partnerships with Ms. Flagstad. ... BTW, I think Ms. Stemme is a Finn, and I've seen her, on PBS shows, around Christmastime, singing with choirs. Certainly a nice TALENT, but if there's ever a comparison with Flagstad (in Tristan), well ... enough unsaid.


Stemme is Swedish.


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Stemme is Swedish.


OK, Stemme is Swedish, and the thread is about heldentenors (which I already knew). Thanks, boys!


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## PaulFranz (May 7, 2019)

I forgot to mention José de Trévi, the poor man's Paul Franz.


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

PaulFranz said:


> I forgot to mention José de Trévi, the poor man's Paul Franz.


Very nice, PaulFranz! ... I used to have an LP reissue, of Franz, maybe recorded on cassette (if I can find it). Thanks for mentioning Jose de Trevi, also; do you have any references (LP, cloud, other sources) for him?


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## PaulFranz (May 7, 2019)

89Koechel said:


> Very nice, PaulFranz! ... I used to have an LP reissue, of Franz, maybe recorded on cassette (if I can find it). Thanks for mentioning Jose de Trevi, also; do you have any references (LP, cloud, other sources) for him?





http://www.historicaltenors.net/belgian/detrevi.html



And whatever's on Youtube. There was a Malibran collection that seems to be gone from their website now.


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## OffPitchNeb (Jun 6, 2016)

Don't forget Set Svaholm. He could hold his ground against Melchior really well!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

OffPitchNeb said:


> Don't forget Set Svaholm. He could hold his ground against Melchior really well!


An amazing pair of performances. I'm thinking back to the classic Caruso/Ruffo recording, The world had real dramatic tenors in it, once upon a time. Big sigh.


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