# My Symphony Three



## Billy

Hi all,

Here is the complete Symphony Three (in Four Movements) I made. I like the second and third movements the best.






Billy McBride


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## mleghorn

Billy, rhythmically, harmonically, melodically, and structurally, there's hardly anything going on. Is it supposed to be minimalism? Chopsticks is more complex than this. I suggest you explore all those elements I've mentioned, and music in general. Try listening to an actual symphony.


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## Billy

Grow up. Here is my tenth symphony for those who care:






Thanks for listening.

Billy M.


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## Delicious Manager

Wow! The bare minimum of musical material stretched seemingly interminably over an hour. It is not a symphony, but a rambling (and somewhat pointless) example of what might be second-rate soundtrack music. It shows no symphonic development whatsoever and no recognition of what a symphony should be (and I'm including many contemporary symphonies in this).

Sorry, Billy, but it is really pretty poor.


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## Delicious Manager

Billy said:


> Grow up. Here is my tenth symphony for those who care:


This actually had some interesting ideas in it, but still lacks any structural cohesion or symphonic argument. I'm wondering if you have actually studied the form you are trying to master?


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## StevenOBrien

Billy said:


> Grow up. Here is my tenth symphony for those who care:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for listening.
> 
> Billy M.


Wow, sounds like you're the one that has growing up to do. Why are you posting your music to be criticized if you're just going to fob off any criticism you receive with such childish remarks? mleghorn is right, there is hardly anything going on and you need to study more if you want your music to be taken seriously by people other than you and your immediate circle of friends and family. Show some respect to someone that sat through just under an hour music! Why not ask him to elaborate on his feedback instead? Maybe you'll disagree with what he has to say and maybe you'll defend yourself against such accusations and try to explain what you were going for, but aren't you at the very least interested in looking for things to improve on?

I'm sorry, but your third symphony doesn't interest me very much at all. There's little to no rhythmic variation (I'm 10 minutes in and the violins are still playing what now feel almost like random quarter notes, with the same seemingly random half note bass line accompanying.) Minimalism is great and all, but even MINIMALISM doesn't pointlessly drone on with the same material for ten minutes with little to no variation. You're writing a symphony, so you have a full orchestra at your disposal, yet you don't seem to use it? Why? There are open chords all over the place (Chords that only use the root and the fifth) in places that I don't think you want to have open.

The biggest problem is that there's an overall lack of contrast to you're writing. While you do have some differing ideas in here, it ultimately all feels the same, which makes things feel very dull. It's like having a film take place with only one camera angle across one scene with the same three characters talking in a strict and predictable manner, without changing their facial expressions at all throughout the film.

Around 28:00 in the third movement, this little theme is rather nice, with some further harmonization and orchestration, it could turn out really well! There are some interesting ideas in here, but you need to study and build up the skills to be able to convincingly and coherently express them.

Here's some educational material for you.

If you don't already have basic music theory knowledge, you can watch this Yale course: http://videolectures.net/yalemusi112f08_listening_music/
Then, I recommend you pick and choose some lectures by this guy: http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/professors/professor_detail.aspx?pid=3
Once you felt you've listened to enough of those, check out Leonard Bernstein's Unanswered Question series: 




I cannot recommend this book enough. Even if you wish for your works to be formless, a read-through of this will revolutionize how you listen to and write music. Seriously, just read it: http://books.google.com/books/about/Classical_Form.html?id=tEKf_lIk8MsC
These two books on harmony and counterpoint will teach you all about the ever dreary subject of voice leading. As boring and as annoying as it is to study, it will allow you to express your ideas in a much more coherent manner.
http://books.google.com/books/about/Harmony_Voice_Leading.html?id=-Hp1g3DWNMgC
http://books.google.com/books/about/Counterpoint_in_Composition.html?id=D1Ezg3pCgRcC

Here's a wonderful youtube channel and a great book on orchestration. They will teach you how best to use the instruments at your disposal, how to make the instruments play together in fun, interesting and coherent ways.
http://www.youtube.com/user/OrchestrationOnline
http://books.google.ie/books/about/Study_of_Orchestration.html?id=ZYpoPwAACAAJ

If you ever find yourself discouraged by all this study, I might recommend looking for a documentary or a film on composers that you look up to to inspire you.

The most important advice I can give you is to obtain a large and diverse collection of music for you to pick up and listen to at any time. Listen to your favorite composers every day and immerse yourself in their music. Make their music your life. Occasionally, when you're feeling adventurous, you should explore classical music from unfamiliar genres and eras and find something you like. Listen listen listen.

Good luck,
-Steve


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## BurningDesire

Delicious Manager said:


> Wow! The bare minimum of musical material stretched seemingly interminably over an hour. It is not a symphony, but a rambling (and somewhat pointless) example of what might be second-rate soundtrack music. It shows no symphonic development whatsoever and no recognition of what a symphony should be (and I'm including many contemporary symphonies in this).
> 
> Sorry, Billy, but it is really pretty poor.


What a symphony should be? Sorry but there really isn't any criteria for what a symphony should be, besides a large-scale, multi-movement orchestral piece. Its a pretty vaguely defined genre.

That being said, I agree that the music could use more development, more ideas. It is pretty bland.


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## beetzart

I'm really sorry, Billy, but I've had a listen to some more of your compositions and cannot find anything positive to say about them. I kept thinking 'a melody will emerge soon', but it never does. Can I ask, how much forethought goes into each piece? Because it does appear that you are just pressing random notes on your synthesiser, and then just stopping when you have had enough. I might have missed it-you do have a large collection of vids- but can you read music?

Maybe you should take the advice others before me have offered, and try not to make comments like 'grow up', when someone doesn't share your enthusiasm. With a bit of knowledge though it may all click for you.


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## Billy

I have been reading some of your reviews and I must say I am not too shocked. Nevertheless, I wish to share my Eleventh Symphony now. Here it is:






Billy M.


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## Billy

I worked really hard to produce this one today. Keep listening for more symphonies. This is my twelfth symphony:






Billy M.


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## Ramako

Billy said:


> I worked really hard to produce this one today. Keep listening for more symphonies. This is my twelfth symphony:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Billy M.


I listened to this one while writing and it was nice background music, thanks.


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## Billy

I just finished this one in time for the weekend! Symphony Thirteen in four movements:






Billy M.


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## Couchie

Billy said:


> I have been reading some of your reviews and I must say I am not too shocked.


It would be uncomfortable if you were shocked, I'm relieved you're conscious of the mediocrity of your output.


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## Crudblud

This thread is just unbelievable.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Billy, my only advice for you: get a composition teacher. The above feedback and criticism is all too true.


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## beetzart

Billy, where do you get your inspiration from? And maybe for you 14th symphony you could make it a bit of a contrast from the rest.


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## StevenOBrien

beetzart said:


> Billy, where do you get your inspiration from? And maybe for you 14th symphony you could make it a bit of a contrast from the rest.


Heh, regardless of the quality of the work, it's astonishing that he seems to be able to churn out an hour long work (I'm assuming) in a matter of hours. I'd definitely be interested to see what he could do if he concentrated his effort and spent a month or two on a project of the same length.


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## Billy

Back to work on another symphony:

Symphony Fourteen:






Billy McBride


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## Ramako

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Billy, my only advice for you: get a composition teacher. The above feedback and criticism is all too true.


I wouldn't say that is necessary. Not if he isn't doing it for a career.



StevenOBrien said:


> Heh, regardless of the quality of the work, it's astonishing that he seems to be able to churn out an hour long work (I'm assuming) in a matter of hours. I'd definitely be interested to see what he could do if he concentrated his effort and spent a month or two on a project of the same length.


I think this is the point (although most after 3 are about 20 mins not an hour)

I remember writing music at approximately a rate of 10 minutes composition to 1 of music for a couple of years after I started. Most of it was, uh, not very good - though I may flatter myself there are some good ideas there, if inadequately treated.

Self-criticism. A composer, any kind of artist, must be ruthlessly self-critical. A certain amount of detachment - that is viewing the composition as an object to be listened to, not just composed - is also invaluable. A discerning ear is also important - to be able to hear what is good and what is not - and that is acquired by listening to music you like. An understanding of what makes music function - lots of things. Motivation to write - makes you write: motivation to improve? - helps you to improve.


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## Jeremy Marchant

BurningDesire said:


> What a symphony should be? Sorry but there really isn't any criteria for what a symphony should be, besides a large-scale, multi-movement orchestral piece. Its a pretty vaguely defined genre.


I agree that there isn't a widely agreed definition of a symphony but I think most people who use the word would want to say that it has connotations of seriousness and purpose which a dance suite drawn from a ballet doesn't have even if it is a "large-scale, multi-movement orchestral piece". And, why exclude single movement symphonies? You can't be arguing that SIbelius 7, Harris 3 or Brian 10 aren't superb symphonies.

Here is David Matthews quoted on his publisher's website: " The first piece I composed was a symphony, and I have been obsessed with the form - which was well defined by Hans Keller as "the large-scale integration of contrasts" - ever since." (Faber Music)

I think Keller's definition is a good one. It underlies at least some of the posts on this thread and offers a comparative, relative test of symphonic credentials. In any work purporting to be a symphony, where are the contrasts? Contrasts of theme, harmony, timbre, rhythm, tempo, structure, emotion. How well are the contrasting elements united into a coherent whole? Is it "large-scale" - which might be interpreted as, does it deal with big issues? So Prokofiev's first, while being a symphony for sure, is lightweight, it doesn't have the reach or scope of say his sixth.


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## Ramako

Jeremy Marchant said:


> I agree that there isn't a widely agreed definition of a symphony but I think most people who use the word would want to say that it has connotations of seriousness and purpose which a dance suite drawn from a ballet doesn't have even if it is a "large-scale, multi-movement orchestral piece".


I agree. I would say that a symphony is an orchestral piece (by convention) which stands, and is intended to stand, on its own two feet as a piece of music (as opposed to a concerto, an overture etc.). Of course programmatic elements could confuse this, but don't stop my basic definition.


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## Jeremy Marchant

Ramako said:


> I agree. I would say that a symphony is an orchestral piece (by convention) which stands, and is intended to stand, on its own two feet as a piece of music (as opposed to a concerto, an overture etc.). Of course programmatic elements could confuse this, but don't stop my basic definition.


Well, I agree that an overture doesn't stand on its feet by itself (though let's not discount composers writing overtures which could be performed in concert as a way of promoting their operas). But a concerto?


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## Ramako

Jeremy Marchant said:


> Well, I agree that an overture doesn't stand on its feet by itself (though let's not discount composers writing overtures which could be performed in concert as a way of promoting their operas). But a concerto?


Not properly orchestral. It is about the interplay between orchestra and soloist(s). A symphony is plain orchestral music.

I know it is a definition with many flaws, but many definitions do. It distinguishes it from music to accompany something else (from ballet to film to opera (again not exactly))


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## Guest

BurningDesire said:


> What a symphony should be? Sorry but there really isn't any criteria for what a symphony should be, besides a large-scale, multi-movement orchestral piece. Its a pretty vaguely defined genre.
> 
> That being said, I agree that the music could use more development, more ideas. It is pretty bland.


Getting a curious sense of deja vu here!

I'm sure it would be easy enough to name a string of composers who (were they still alive) be quite clear about the form of a traditional symphony, in what ways they wrote in conformity with it, and where they understood they were breaking with the tradition.

I hesitate to name them. :lol:

The 'problem' with language - all language, not just that used to discuss music - is that it evolves through use and misuse. If 'symphony' is being used simply to mean 'big and serious' then it could be applied by anyone who wishes to take themselves seriously to anything of a half-decent length! With greatest respect to Billy, I'll be listening to more established composers to explore the symphony and its many variants.


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## Billy

Symphony Fifteen:


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## Ravndal

dafuq. did you just finish 2 symphonies in one day?


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## jani

Damn you are [email protected] Mozart .


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## Billy

My Sixteenth Classical Symphony:


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## beetzart

Billy said:


> My Sixteenth Classical Symphony:


Now where have I heard that before?


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## Delicious Manager

Billy said:


> My Sixteenth Classical Symphony:


Now I think you're just a troll. I believe (as has been suggested before in this thread) that you are just recording random 'improvisations' on your keyboard. There is no other way you could be churning out so much audio drivel so quickly. The 'music' has no worth whatsoever. I think you know this and you're just trying to wind us up.

Maybe you should find a new hobby?


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## StevenOBrien

Delicious Manager said:


> Now I think you're just a troll. I believe (as has been suggested before in this thread) that you are just recording random 'improvisations' on your keyboard. There is no other way you could be churning out so much audio drivel so quickly. The 'music' has no worth whatsoever. I think you know this and you're just trying to wind us up.
> 
> Maybe you should find a new hobby?


I'm starting to regret taking this guy seriously and taking the time to give him feedback.


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## Crudblud

But you have to admit, the opening movement of Billy's 10th is the work of a comedic genius.


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## beetzart

Something tells me this guy is disturbingly more then just a troll!






He has also self published 160 books. Although I will never venture upon him again, as, well,,, it's all just too damn creepy


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## Ravndal




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## jani

Maybe he tries to beat the Guinness
world recrd on “number of symphonies composed by one composer“
.


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## BurningDesire

Delicious Manager said:


> Now I think you're just a troll. I believe (as has been suggested before in this thread) that you are just recording random 'improvisations' on your keyboard. There is no other way you could be churning out so much audio drivel so quickly. The 'music' has no worth whatsoever. I think you know this and you're just trying to wind us up.
> 
> Maybe you should find a new hobby?


Well thats a pretty big assumption, and kinda mean, don't you think?


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## BurningDesire

Jeremy Marchant said:


> I agree that there isn't a widely agreed definition of a symphony but I think most people who use the word would want to say that it has connotations of seriousness and purpose which a dance suite drawn from a ballet doesn't have even if it is a "large-scale, multi-movement orchestral piece". And, why exclude single movement symphonies? You can't be arguing that SIbelius 7, Harris 3 or Brian 10 aren't superb symphonies.
> 
> Here is David Matthews quoted on his publisher's website: " The first piece I composed was a symphony, and I have been obsessed with the form - which was well defined by Hans Keller as "the large-scale integration of contrasts" - ever since." (Faber Music)
> 
> I think Keller's definition is a good one. It underlies at least some of the posts on this thread and offers a comparative, relative test of symphonic credentials. In any work purporting to be a symphony, where are the contrasts? Contrasts of theme, harmony, timbre, rhythm, tempo, structure, emotion. How well are the contrasting elements united into a coherent whole? Is it "large-scale" - which might be interpreted as, does it deal with big issues? So Prokofiev's first, while being a symphony for sure, is lightweight, it doesn't have the reach or scope of say his sixth.


Good point about single movement works. About "light-weight" symphonies, you wouldn't say that something not being really heavy makes it less good, would you?


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## juergen

What, no new symphony? Now almost 8 hours have passsed since you've posted the last one. I'm getting impatient. What's going on Billy, are you sleeping? A real composer never sleeps!


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## Ramako

This is all getting a bit mean. Do you think that we could perhaps help him come round to see our point of view, rather than beat him up like this? It isn't going to help anyone.

No, I don't think he's a troll. He is simply composing for reasons that we find unfathomable. Perhaps we should target his motivation, rather than his output? He may be over thirty, but that doesn't mean he is an experienced composer. He should learn more, yes, but this isn't going to help.

One or two cutting honest replies is one thing, sarcasm is another. Perhaps we should have tried to engage in communication with him? Persuade him that his current method of composition just isn't going to cut it. 

To Billy: All composers of the past have worked very hard on any given masterpiece - and by very hard I mean often hours a day for months - particularly large-scale works like symphonies. They have all also studied for years before producing mediocre works, and have produced mediocre works for years before producing masterpieces (with the possible exception of Mendelssohn). If you want your works to be accepted by the outside world, you will have to realize that some harsh criticism often meets masterpieces like the Eroica, but always meets pieces that just won't survive. You need to understand what makes music works, and therefore it helps to understand what makes people tick.

I know this isn't going to make me popular, but I just don't see the good in all these attacks, which go beyond criticism.


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## beetzart

Ramako said:


> This is all getting a bit mean. Do you think that we could perhaps help him come round to see our point of view, rather than beat him up like this? It isn't going to help anyone.
> 
> No, I don't think he's a troll. He is simply composing for reasons that we find unfathomable. Perhaps we should target his motivation, rather than his output? He may be over thirty, but that doesn't mean he is an experienced composer. He should learn more, yes, but this isn't going to help.
> 
> One or two cutting honest replies is one thing, sarcasm is another. Perhaps we should have tried to engage in communication with him? Persuade him that his current method of composition just isn't going to cut it.
> 
> To Billy: All composers of the past have worked very hard on any given masterpiece - and by very hard I mean often hours a day for months - particularly large-scale works like symphonies. They have all also studied for years before producing mediocre works, and have produced mediocre works for years before producing masterpieces (with the possible exception of Mendelssohn). If you want your works to be accepted by the outside world, you will have to realize that some harsh criticism often meets masterpieces like the Eroica, but always meets pieces that just won't survive. You need to understand what makes music works, and therefore it helps to understand what makes people tick.
> 
> I know this isn't going to make me popular, but I just don't see the good in all these attacks, which go beyond criticism.


I agree, but I don't think it'll make much difference. I highly doubt he can read music and is in a way abusing the genre of the symphony by just pressing keys of a synthesiser randomly for half an hour. He is doing this also with the supposed literature he self publishes describing his books as 'the saddest ever', or stuff like that, if you're bothered check outhttp://www.lulu.com/shop/search.ep?type=&keyWords=billy+mcbride&x=4&y=12&sitesearch=lulu.com&q=

It is either an elaborate hoax, or Billy is a very unhappy person just trying to get some sort of recognition. But producing these 'symphonies' every few hours and expecting praise is like throwing a pebble at a large boulder and saying the resulting indent has produced a sculpture on par with Michelangelo's David.

Billy, please could you at least try to produce a melody? Start with C major, and just see if you can conjure up a theme, or start in C minor and have a brooding introduction. You only need to use I and V and maybe a diminished 7th to get some effect.

Good luck.


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## Billy

Symphony Seventeen:


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## beetzart

Billy said:


> Symphony Seventeen:


Billy, Billy, Billy. Are your symphonies on Score Exchange by any chance?

Can I do the 18th, please?


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## Delicious Manager

One thought: OCD!


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## beetzart

You know what, I think these symphonies are slowly evolving, so by symphony no 539853 we might have a woodwind section introduced and by symphony no 1 x 10^34 we might have a melody. This may the case in a couple of hours seeing as Billy is so prolific! 

Honest, Billy, I nearly detected a motif in your last symphony, and I think it nearly developed!


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## juergen

Billy said:


> Symphony Seventeen:


Yes! Finally! Was about time.

That's a good one. Did you upgrade your sounds? No more synth sounds there.

Keep them coming. Seems that you are in a very productive phase right now. Don't let yourself be put off. The people here might be able to read music, but unfortunately they can not hear it.


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## jani

If billy would use even half of that energy for studying. theory and his favorite. symphonye
s by his favorite composers
i bet that he would. improve fast.


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## Crudblud

By the way, I'm assuming some people thought that what I said about "comedic genius" was intended as an insult. It wasn't; I greatly prize humour in music. I thought the first movement of the 10th was funny, I enjoyed it! The rest, not so much, but Billy doesn't seem to care what we think, if anything I think he's taking the considerable amount of talk about his music, good or bad, as a compliment.


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## Jeremy Marchant

BurningDesire said:


> Good point about single movement works. About "light-weight" symphonies, you wouldn't say that something not being really heavy makes it less good, would you?


No, and I didn't.


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## Couchie

Delicious Manager said:


> Now I think you're just a troll. I believe (as has been suggested before in this thread) that you are just recording random 'improvisations' on your keyboard. There is no other way you could be churning out so much audio drivel so quickly. The 'music' has no worth whatsoever. I think you know this and you're just trying to wind us up.
> 
> Maybe you should find a new hobby?


I suspect that you are correct in that Billy just records these from a midi keyboard to a sequencer. A half-hour symphony takes him a half-hour to compose. No score is produced and no real thought goes into the development aside from the whims of the moment.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Couchie said:


> I suspect that you are correct in that Billy just records these from a midi keyboard to a sequencer. A half-hour symphony takes him a half-hour to compose. No score is produced and no real thought goes into the development aside from the whims of the moment.


It's like free improvised jazz except this guy is trying to do it with a full midi orchestra and doesn't really know enough theory.


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## Couchie

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> It's like free improvised jazz except this guy is trying to do it with a full midi orchestra and doesn't really know enough theory.


Nothing against improvisation, but even Mozart worked in a series of sketches and drafts before attempting to put together a symphony.


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## Chrythes

It should be "My Symphony Tree".


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## Billy

Classical Symphony Eighteen:


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## beetzart

Billy said:


> Classical Symphony Eighteen:


Seriously though, Billy, you will have read what we have said about your music, and I think for the best part we have tried to be honest with you, agree? You obviously haven't taken any notice, which is your prerogative of course, so can I ask why do you keep posting these 'symphonies' when they sound all the same?


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## Delicious Manager

beetzart said:


> Seriously though, Billy, you will have read what we have said about your music, and I think for the best part we have tried to be honest with you, agree? You obviously haven't taken any notice, which is your prerogative of course, so can I ask why do you keep posting these 'symphonies' when they sound all the same?


I second that motion!


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## Delicious Manager

If this continues for more than a week or so, Billhelmina will be up to 'classical symphony' No 63 by the time we all shoot ourselves.


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## juergen

Delicious Manager said:


> If this continues for more than a week or so, Billhelmina will be up to 'classical symphony' No 63 by the time we all shoot ourselves.


What's the problem? Nobody is forced to listen to the stuff.


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## Billy

Classical Symphony Nineteen:


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## Ravndal

Good god. Check out these lyrics








> I am a black woman in heaven.
> I am a black woman in heaven.
> Lord is my Lord and Savior.
> I am a black woman in heaven.


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## Crudblud

I actually really like that song.


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## beetzart

Crudblud said:


> I actually really like that song.


Seriously? I am willing to see if he can write a symphony, but his songwriting is atrocious, horrendous, awful.

Sorry.


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## Crudblud

Again, I appreciate humour, and that song seems very humorous to me. Unfortunately Billy seems unwilling to engage us in conversation, so I doubt we'll ever know his intention.

Anyway, I would say it is his best work, which might not be saying much but I'm just being honest.


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## beetzart

Crudblud said:


> Again, I appreciate humour, and that song seems very humorous to me. Unfortunately Billy seems unwilling to engage us in conversation, so I doubt we'll ever know his intention.
> 
> Anyway, I would say it is his best work, which might not be saying much but I'm just being honest.


Fair enough. Perhaps unbeknown to us this is the way music will be in the future, and we better get used to it!


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## Crudblud

Well, better that than Jamiroquai.


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## Billy

Classical Symphony Twenty:


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## Billy

Classical Symphony Twenty-One is more experimental than Twenty, which I feel is a very good one:

Here it is:






I know I am trying to do much, but I have been blessed with much time, and much time goes into making each piece. Others are right when they say I am using technology, a MIDI sequencer, to make scores and songs. For me it is a blast as I love making, sharing and listening to the music that happens; and no, I am not an unhappy person as someone suggested. I consider myself the mildest of men. Maybe, I will reach 100 symphonies one day. For me the music is worth it, regardless of the moralisms which come from some directions. I think of my music as American Romantic, a rough kind, yet do not think of it as neither sentimental, nor sincere. Thanks for your comments. I have been reading them and thinking about them.


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## Lunasong

Billy,
Do you ever play your symphonies more than once? Are they firmly set on paper or are they open to further development? I'm glad you get much enjoyment out of making music and sharing it.


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## Billy

I like to be open to new ideas of revision if they come. I play my symphonies many times, although some of what I hear in them is still a mystery for me. I like the harmonies and changes very much, especially during my second movements. Thanks for listening.


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## juergen

I like most of your symphonies. Reworking them would probably not make much sense. Maybe you could create a "best of" symphony where you integrate the best parts from all of your symphonies into a new one.


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## Billy

Classical Symphony Twenty-Two:






Yes, I plan on doing a best of my best one day.

On this symphony I especially like the third movement, where I played it quicker, and hit the bass notes less often with my left. As in the last two or three, I used less repetition for many parts. And, the change I made with my style of playing overall in this symphony twenty-two was to use an octave stretch on my left more than I usually do, and a less major chord riffs, which I don't usually use, but I pretty much eliminated them altogether from this one. I also, like I did with twenty-one, used a metrodome when recording this time. The freestyle was a typical way I do when I play regular instrumental rock or jazz with my synthesizer alone and live. I did not however with this one get too loose.


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## Jeremy Marchant

Billy said:


> On this symphony I especially like the third movement, where I played it quicker, and hit the bass notes less often with my left. As in the last two or three, I used less repetition for many parts. And, the change I made with my style of playing overall in this symphony twenty-two was to use an octave stretch on my left more than I usually do, and a less major chord riffs, which I don't usually use, but I pretty much eliminated them altogether from this one. I also, like I did with twenty-one, used a metrodome when recording this time. The freestyle was a typical way I do when I play regular instrumental rock or jazz with my synthesizer alone and live. I did not however with this one get too loose.


So these are keyboard works, then...?


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## Billy

Yes, Jeremy, to do a symphony I compose and improvise live, and edit later in various ways. 

Here is what one of my goals is by making a symphony. Each different symphony for me tells a different story. I have just heard my symphony twenty-two again and I have taken notes as to what I was trying to do in order to explain it better. So here it goes.

The first movement separates into three parts chronologically. The first part, introduces the icon of a great presence creatively separating a structure with a foundation in the musical narrative. Then, for the second part, I create a timidity and uncertainty which questions another theme of incomprehensible outrageousness. These ideas lead to the third part of the first movement where a conflict between beauty and the inevitable on one side and insecurity and inferiority on the other is won by the beautiful and inevitable. This ends the first movement's instrumental narrative.

The second movement has four parts in chronological order: one, an intoxicated resting from and after one's creativity; two, the great building up of the memory and for the memory; three, a return of the great presence and its outrageousness; and four, a feeling that stubborness is fighting what was inevitable before and what still continues to be occurring in the nature of things.

The fast paced third movement has two narrative melodic orders: one, the introduction of the sublime into a playfulness and spiritual fun. And, two, the beginning of a flight from the destructiveness of prophesy. 

I have made the final fourth movement to represent finally two more themes in the melodic narrative: first, a new flight into a serious freedom from bad society. And, second, I end my twenty-second symphony with a theme of one who is clever and who is good wrestling in a match to delay the incomprehensible and inevitable.

That is it in a nutshell. I doubt others will be able to see the symphony the same way as I do, since everybody hears something different than everybody else, but maybe there is use in this interpretation I made, and perhaps more to come for my next symphonies.


----------



## Billy

Classical Symphony Twenty-Three:






In this one I sped up my live playing during recording of the MIDI data. Especially in the fourth movement I was very loose and comfortable. As in the last symphony, I was also sparse with my left's bass notes. That's it pretty much. When I am loose, I hardly know what I am doing, however, it works, at least for me.


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## juergen

Wow, Billy, absolutely mesmerizing this one, especially the second and the third movement. I like the second movement most. The only criticism I can say is that the consonant ending of the first movement seems to be a bit misplaced.

BTW: I recommend to listen to these symphonies at a good stereo system and at an adequate volume level. Gives a completely different impression.


----------



## Billy

Thanks Juergen for your comment and tip.

Here is the next.

Classical Symphony Twenty-Four:


----------



## Billy

Classical Symphony Twenty-Five:


----------



## Billy

Classical Symphony Twenty-Six:


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## juergen

Man, you produce the symphonies faster than I can listen to them. :trp: :guitar:
I've skipped Twenty-Four and Twenty-Five for the moment. Now I'm listening to Twenty-Six. Not bad, but the second mov. of Twenty-Three is still my favorite.


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## Billy

Thanks Juergen, I am on a roll! And, I do not yet feel I have reached maximum speed or output. I think I now know what to expect with my creativity and creations, and I have made it easy on myself and have learned to streamline my labors. I am glad you like them, and have favorite parts. They certainly are great fun to make during the rainy days here in Hilo, Hawaii.

Here is my next:

Classical Symphony Twenty-Seven:


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## Billy

Classical Symphony Twenty-Eight:


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## beetzart

Blimey, Billy where do you get all your idea from?


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## juergen

There is nothing better than a relaxing evening with the latest Billy-Symphony. Thanks!


----------



## Billy

Thanks Juergen for your kindness, I agree composing music and then listening to it afterwards, it's the life!

Here's Classical Symphony Twenty-Nine:


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## Mesa

There are iPhone apps that could write better symphonies. Probably.


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## juergen

Symphonies often do have an additional name. This one could be called "The mysterious". Has a pretty dark mood. Maybe the painting of Matisse at the video does not fit very well to that mood. Anyway, good work.


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## Billy

Thank you Juergen. It is kind of dark. Here is Classical Symphony Thirty:


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## beetzart

Do you not get bored of the same timbre with every thing you write? You need some variation surely!


----------



## Billy

Classical Symphony Thirty-One:


----------



## Billy

Classical Symphony Thirty-Two:


----------



## Billy

I worked really hard on this one - Classical Symphony Thirty-Three:


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## juergen

New world record! Three symphonies in four hours. Must be very rainy there in Hilo. 
Will listen to the new works later.


----------



## StevenOBrien

Billy said:


> I worked really hard on this one - Classical Symphony Thirty-Three:


A massive improvement over what I first heard. Keep at it. I still think you should experiment and try to spend a month or so on a single symphony.


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## beetzart

StevenOBrien said:


> A massive improvement over what I first heard. Keep at it. I still think you should experiment and try to spend a month or so on a single symphony.


 Really?


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## Ramako

beetzart said:


> Really?


I assume so. A month can be quite a short time I think for a large scale work like a symphony.


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## beetzart

Ramako said:


> I assume so. A month can be quite a short time I think for a large scale work like a symphony.


I sort of meant the bit about a 'massive improvment' There really hasn't been, I'm sorry and I would love to hear a Billy Symphony that had some...well a theme at least. Doesn't the same timbre grate a bit after 30 odd 'symphonies' for others? Perhaps I'm missing a trick, no I must be, yet randomly pressing keys for 30 mins with 3 pauses in between to signify a new movement, which are exactly the same, is not art. There is no effort apart from a bit of patience.


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## oogabooha

Billy...don't you think that a symphony should be something more dynamic and prolific? I'm all for experimentation and improvisation, but it doesn't seem like you know what you're doing. I just feel like you're pushing through each symphony as quick as possible, oblivious to your surroundings.


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## juergen

beetzart said:


> I would love to hear a Billy Symphony that had some...well a theme at least.


"Where is the theme?" the conductor Deshoff asked the composer Anton Bruckner, when Bruckner presented him his symphony in D minor. That comes into my mind when I read this.


----------



## Ramako

beetzart said:


> I sort of meant the bit about a 'massive improvment'.


Oh ok, sorry . Still, I have found that there are recurring motifs in a texture one could call contrapuntal.


----------



## beetzart

Ramako said:


> Oh ok, sorry . Still, I have found that there are recurring motifs in a texture one could call contrapuntal.


That's called luck, random notes I suppose will repeat eventually in 15+ hours of ,ahem, music. Therefore I don't think it is intentional.


----------



## Ramako

beetzart said:


> That's called luck, random notes I suppose will repeat eventually in 15+ hours of ,ahem, music. Therefore I don't think it is intentional.


I don't mean throughout the symphonies, I mean within two minutes. On a whim I followed the horn part and found a repeating motif that was in the violin part as well at different times. There was some more stuff like that as well. I think I now know how to listen to these. Probably.


----------



## Ravndal

I don't get this. Why does people say this is good? Sounds exactly like his first symphonies. mleghorn tried to give him some constructive feedback, and billy told him to grow up. And now your all supporting him? If you sympathize so much with him, then give him some real feedback, instead of saying it's good. This is just a dude improvising on a keyboard, by pressing random notes in a scale. If this is going to get good sometime, it has to be worked on properly. At least study some music theory.


----------



## StevenOBrien

Ravndal said:


> I don't get this. Why does people say this is good? Sounds exactly like his first symphonies. mleghorn tried to give him some constructive feedback, and billy told him to grow up. And now your all supporting him? If you sympathize so much with him, then give him some real feedback, instead of saying it's good. This is just a dude improvising on a keyboard, by pressing random notes in a scale. If this is going to get good sometime, it has to be worked on properly. At least study some music theory.
> 
> y'all retarded


I said it was a massive improvement, I didn't say I liked it. He's on the right track though, maybe by Symphony #800 I'll finally be able to become a member of the Billy fanclub . My feedback on the first page of this thread still stands.


----------



## Ravndal

Yes. I know that you say what you mean. I didnt mean you


----------



## Ramako

I supported him earlier because I felt the criticism was no longer constructive, but merely sarcastic. I do not understand where the guy is coming from - or, well I'm not sure. I'm not a member of the fanclub.


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## DeepR

I admire your creative drive but to be honest it sounds like coming from a computer... now that would be quite genius.

Have you ever heard of a break, a pause, silence in music?


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## beetzart

Ramako said:


> I don't mean throughout the symphonies, I mean within two minutes. On a whim I followed the horn part and found a repeating motif that was in the violin part as well at different times. There was some more stuff like that as well. I think I now know how to listen to these. Probably.


I know what you meant. He has written over 15 hours of random music, at some point during that, within 2 minutes like you said, something interesting has to occur just by shear probability, not intention.


----------



## Billy

Classical Symphony Thirty-Four:


----------



## Billy

Gnostic Classical Symphony No. 1:


----------



## Renaissance

A symphony(or two) a day, keeps the psychiatrist away.


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## Billy

Gnostic Classical Symphony No.2:


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## StevenOBrien

Your symphonies believe in God now? 

They seem like a step backwards from your #33.


----------



## Billy

Gnostic Classical Symphony No.3:


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## Billy

Gnostic Classical Symphony No.4:


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## Renaissance

What is the point with all these "symphonies" ? Why would you improvise at the keyboard 2-3 hours a day of random music instead of doing only 5-10 minute of more valuable music ? Instead of having 40 "symphonies" by now you would have had only one or two, but real symphonies. Does this "music" really satisfy you ? I find it a bit depressing and boring. Why having 20 hours or so of random music, which no one listens to, when you can have only one hour of quality music ? There are many tutorials on youtube on how to compose orchestral music, and it is not very difficult, just needs some dedication from you, that's all.


----------



## beetzart

Renaissance said:


> What is the point with all these "symphonies" ? Why would you improvise at the keyboard 2-3 hours a day of random music instead of doing only 5-10 minute of more valuable music ? Instead of having 40 "symphonies" by now you would have had only one or two, but real symphonies. Does this "music" really satisfy you ? I find it a bit depressing and boring. Why having 20 hours or so of random music, which no one listens to, when you can have only one hour of quality music ? There are many tutorials on youtube on how to compose orchestral music, and it is not very difficult, just needs some dedication from you, that's all.


I agree. This is getting silly now, I mean what is he trying to prove? He has been given advice and not taken it, so perhaps we should all write random 'symphonies' to show how easily it can be done.

Billy, composing isn't about being prolific, it's about hard work and trying to find satisfaction in a piece. You call your symphonies 'classical' yet they are not. Listen to some Haydn symphonies to get an idea of how it is done, he would sometimes start with a brooding introduction then it would burst into life in a major key with a tempo usually of allegro. He would compose in sonata form, are you aware of how that works? The 2nd movement would usually be much slower, adagio or largo, in a relative major key, possibly in sonata form again. The 3rd movement a minuet and trio, and the last movement a quick presto that would be quite lively and shorter then the 1st movement. Haydn wrote 104 of these but over a long working lifespan, and I'm sure he put much effort into each one, especially the latter ones.

Can I ask if you can actually read music, or do you understand any basic music theory? I notice with your books that you read out that you have a terrible prose, and you seem to have transferred this to your compositions.


----------



## Ramako

StevenOBrien said:


> Your symphonies believe in God now?
> 
> They seem like a step backwards from your #33.


I'm almost sure I saw a link to Gnostic symphonies before on the side of the youtube page: are these actually new?



beetzart said:


> I notice with your books that you read out that you have a terrible prose, and you seem to have transferred this to your compositions.


You bought his books? 

Listening to no. 34 I think it is better than the earlier ones and Gnostic no.1 and 2 (by a quick judgement). I think Billy probably has a somewhat skeptical attitude towards theory, which is not exactly unusual. Even in history. He doesn't read music, it says elsewhere (or at least he didn't). He is interested in the golden ratio and stuff like that.


----------



## Renaissance

Ramako said:


> He is interested in the golden ratio and stuff like that.


Well, even in this case is very important to know some theory. Golden ration applied to what ? It is still necessary to have a basic knowledge of intervals, frequency of different musical notes, and so on. It is fun to do experiments in music, I myself do such 5-10 minute experiments but that is just for the sake of fun. For example, take the piece below, that I wrote in 5 minute. See that, Billy ? I can make "music" as fast as you do.


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## beetzart

No I haven't bought his books, Ramako, but listened to him read extracts from them on You Tube. Earlier on in this thread I posted a particular 'comedy' of his.


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## Ramako

beetzart said:


> No I haven't bought his books, Ramako, but listened to him read extracts from them on You Tube. Earlier on in this thread I posted a particular 'comedy' of his.


Oh right, ok. Sorry . Yeah I listened to a bit of it.

I wonder whether he has a presence on other forums?

EDIT: sorry if you are offended by us calling you 'he' Billy, but you do rarely engage in conversation with us.


----------



## StevenOBrien

Ramako said:


> Oh right, ok. Sorry . Yeah I listened to a bit of it.
> 
> I wonder whether he has a presence on other forums?
> 
> EDIT: sorry if you are offended by us calling you 'he' Billy, but you do rarely engage in conversation with us.


It comes across as spamming almost. I thought this was a forum was about posting your works to discuss them with other composers and get feedback, not to merely advertise them and ignore most of the discussion about them :S.


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## juergen

Hmm, I must say that I also don't understand exactly what makes these symphonies "gnostic". Maybe you want to explain a bit, Billy? Also the mesmerizing character of some of your earlier works (for example #23) is not so present here. Maybe you need a little break to refresh your creative power?


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## Delicious Manager

Fellow TalkClassicalians. I really can't believe this thread has reached 9 pages! Can't you all see you have played straight into this Trolls hands? All he wants is ATTENTION. And you're giving it to him in droves. He attempted trolling another classical chat forum, but people there were sensible enough to completely ignore him and his posts have now been removed by the moderators who saw 'Billy' for what he is - a spammer, a Troll. I urge the moderators here to do the same and I urge everyone else to make this post of mine the last one that Billy will attract.

Or perhaps you like being trolled?


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## juergen

What I can see is that Billy has 73 posts now over a period of almost one year. Can't see any spam.


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## paulc

Billy,

When I listen to your music I can hear that there are recurring elements which demonstrate your ability, contrary to what some others have said. Where your music is lacking (IMO) is the following:

Rhythmic variation. I hear little change in key signature and timing.
Harmonic variation. The harmonies used never seem to explore 9th, 11th or 13th chords, or subtle chromatic progressions.
Modulation. I hear little change in key overall.
Development of existing material. You have a tendency to introduce new ideas all the time.
Form. There is nothing wrong with music that lacks shape, but form is more important in larger works. A book on melodic organisation might help.
Lack of dynamics. Most everything is played at the same volume, with little contrast through soft and loud moments.
Orchestration. Your choice of instruments is a little bland. Using the same textures/colours leads to tedium.

The beginning of your #33 does seem to succeed more than your other compositions.

If you want to progress, you must do more to maintain the listener's interest. I hope you ignore the insults which have been directed at you, but at the same time pay attention to those who have offered constructive criticism.

Regards,
Paul.


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## Ramako

I agree Paul, I think Billy might have potential, which is why I've tried to avoid wholesale criticism, though I think he does need to work on his technique (not so much in a technical as methodological sense). In my opinion I think he needs to think about a) his own reaction to his music, which I think he does. Now he needs to think about others reaction to it, will other people like this? Will other people who hate me, like this? It is a good exercise if nothing else (I think it is much more, but anyway) to write (accessible) music for other people.

And yes it is disturbing that this thread is so long.


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## juergen

Why is it disturbing that this thread is long? Are there any capacity limits in this forum? Or is it envy that this guy without a formal musical education gets so much attention?

In my opinion this thread is exciting because it is not only a discussion about Billy's music but also a discussion about the worth of music itself (or at least it could be). When is music worth to be listened? Only when the composer has worked month on it? When he has studied the "theory", i.e. harmony rules, voice leading, orchestration? Merely applying the "theory" is not creativity. There is no other field where this saying has more validity than in music: Theory is called theory because it is the opposite of practice.

Billy just found his way of working and I think it's ok. It's his way to express creativity. Some like what comes out, others don't.

He hits random keys at the keyboard? Maybe. But it's interesting to see that this is called "hitting random keys" if somebody without musical education does it, and "Aleatoric", "Minimalism", "Fractal Music" or whatever if etablished composers do so.


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## beetzart

Sorry to be flippant but that sounds like a primary school sports day where everyone get a medal, regardless. I would though like a bit more background from him, how he initially approached writing his music, preparation, inspiration, etc. Saying that I still wouldn't like it if an established composer wrote the same thing.


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## Ramako

Juergen, I think Billy's style could go somewhere - once I understood the motivic stuff, I realised that. I just think there's something that needs to click with him.

There is no art where theory is more important than music. There is no art more creative than music.

However, theory is a(n often incorrect) codification of past ideas practically by definition. Some aspects of it obviously go further than this, and of course there is nothing intrinsically wrong with past ideas counter to what some people would say. However, while knowledge about parallel fifths etc. can be ignored, it is important to have so that you as a composer know what's going on. Regrettably, we are reaching a stage in music where there is so much theory (in 20th C particularly with many diverse strands of ideas) that it is impossible to know everything, or may be soon. I have my own ideas.

I would quite like to converse with Billy a bit. However, I can understand that he may not want to speak because he will get pounced on and irrational argument will ensue. Beetzart I am not talking about you in pouncing btw.


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## beetzart

As a thought experiment, what if I set my piano up to my Sibelius software tomorrow and just let my 3 yr old son loose on it until he gets bored, then publish it on YT as his 1st sonata. Would it be worthless because he is only 3? He has no musical knowledge, yet sometimes listens to what I have playing on the PC, and asks what it is. He has had a go on the piano and likes to try the notes across the whole keyboard. He may play quick or slow, depends on how he feels I guess. As I say just a thought experiment, I won't be trying it.


----------



## Billy

Thank you for you ongoing comments. I like this discussion.

Juergen, I am a Gnostic and so I decided to start naming my symphonies "Gnostic" Symphony No. 1,2,3,4,5. That's why. 
As to theory, I myself don't think that it is very interesting to talk about. I made up my mind long ago that the more I try to pursue something, the harder it is to gain.

I also know that the only method is the Self. I am moved by the efforts to stop me from sharing my music, but I will just keep going forward, forward until I stop, even though I never stop. I take as my motto from Sir John Falstaff in Shakespeare's Henry IV: "Give me life!" I resist preparing so that I may be free from the anxieties that we all have sometimes of over-learning.

Since I am also Jewish, I do not believe in randomness, everything for me has a purpose. I like to let the music do what it does, while letting it be. The harsh criticisms I get and welcome about the music and about the so-called-randomness seem to me to be overlooking the many patterns and motifs I put into the score. I consider myself the mildest of men and I think that it would be bad for my character to complain about what I think bad in criticisms and in critics.

I do not read music when I play, but I can write it.

Maybe I am a delicious troll, but I doubt it. There is much more I have to say musically that will probably shock. However, I think that if you know me, then you will not find much new or surprising in my music. I know many heroes of mine who have been caught up with arguing about why it is not important to care about what is true or false. Instead of knowledge, I seek hope as my guide. I have a knowledge and experience received of music and useful musical biographies. It will probably be more important to change the subject, than to argue over stuff we can just as easily throw out the window, like horseplay.

Gnostic Classical Symphony No.5:


----------



## juergen

Well, is he still a troll? I think others can learn from him, not vice versa.


----------



## StevenOBrien

Billy said:


> Instead of knowledge, I seek hope as my guide.


You're truly a lost cause if you prefer to seek security in your self-comforting lies than be guided by truth and knowledge, but if that's what makes you happy, I wish you the best. You do have the potential to write great music though, but unless you follow the latter path and seek to constantly improve yourself, it's never going to happen.

The reason most of us truly can't get enough of composers like Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms, Wagner, and even The Beatles is not solely because they were skilled musicians, had great ideas or because their music is skillfully constructed. No, the reason we see their music as great art is because their music contains truth and intent. They lived for what they did and they poured everything they had into it. No matter how perfect their music became, they constantly sought ways of improving both themselves and their music. You can feel it running through your veins when you listen to it. They never deluded themselves by just blindly hoping that things would work out.

As a species, where on earth would we be if we just fell back upon hope and never sought anything more? Back in the plains of Africa I'd imagine, walking on all fours without any language to communicate with like we are right now, all because we did not seek to improve ourselves. We were afraid of change and content with what little we had.

Your music is, as you admit, based on nothing but lies and hope. Hope without any action on your part will achieve absolutely nothing, and lying to yourself will only drive you backwards. Seek the truth and put it into your music. I hope you choose the right path.

Of course, good music is entirely subjective and I'm in no position to tell you what's good and what's bad, but I'd ask you to at least take a step back and evaluate your position. It's up to you, but surely it's at least worth doing that, given that the majority of us think you're not really going anywhere.



juergen said:


> Well, is he still a troll? I think others can learn from him, not vice versa.


Indeed. Coming soon, my "Atheist Symphony No. 1".


----------



## Couchie

^ That, and... Billy like _needs to get laid._


----------



## Billy

Ramako, I do have other music I call Gnostic Symphonies, like this one,






They are not the same as my Gnostic Classical Symphonies.

Gnostic Classical Symphony No.6:


----------



## Crudblud

Billy, I have a couple of questions: 

Why do you refer to these symphonies as "classical"?

What exactly is a "rum symphony"?


----------



## Ramako

Billy said:


> Juergen, I am a Gnostic and so I decided to start naming my symphonies "Gnostic" Symphony No. 1,2,3,4,5. That's why.





Billy said:


> Instead of knowledge, I seek hope as my guide.


I am curious that you are a gnostic, and yet do not seek knowledge. I am not an expert, and probably misunderstand something fundamental here, but this seems confusing to me.

If we had perfect knowledge, then we would not need hope. To hope is to wait for something (good) to come, yes? If we knew for certain that this was coming, was in our future, then we would not need hope, because we would know it was going to happen for certain. We would know, hope would become knowledge, and thus become mere waiting. Hope can sustain us through life. Yet if our hope turns out to be false, then we are proved fools.



Billy said:


> I made up my mind long ago that the more I try to pursue something, the harder it is to gain.


The more one tries to pursue something, the more effort one is putting into it, practically by definition. The more you pursue something the higher standards you impose upon yourself. These may be harder to attain than the other, lower standards, but surely it is worth putting more effort into something if the result is better?

The great composers have expressed truths about the human condition forcefully through their music. It is not only about having something to say, but saying it well, or as well as it is given to you to be able to do. This is where theory comes in. Without knowledge, we have nothing to say. I hate to nitpick, but you do give some of your knowledge as something useful.



Billy said:


> I have a knowledge and experience received of music and useful musical biographies


On what basis can we acquire knowledge? Only when we take some things for granted. This may not appeal to some people, and others would like to claim that this is not true. We may have to rest on what are ultimately assumptions but the power of our belief allows us to have knowledge, whether it be true or false, whether we be religious or atheist. Of course, we could take nothing for granted, and reject all knowledge. But then why live? (Not merely a rhetorical question)

I repeat, if our hope turns out to be false, then we are proved fools.



Couchie said:


> ^ That, and... Billy like _needs to get laid._


I think he's married, shouldn't be problem.



Billy said:


> Ramako, I do have other music I call Gnostic Symphonies, like this one,


OK thanks, I was a bit confused.


----------



## Lunasong

Lunasong said:


> Billy,
> Do you ever play your symphonies more than once? Are they firmly set on paper?





Billy said:


> I play my symphonies many times.





Billy said:


> I do not read music when I play, but I can write it.


I'm confused. How do you play them more than once if you don't read music when you play? How do you ensure that the notation, dynamics, and phrasing are exactly how you want them to be and interpretable by other musicians? It's fine to write music for your own pleasure, but you seem so intent on publishing it through YouTube performance (standard YouTube License) that you should be prepared to share the score in an appropriate way if requested.


----------



## juergen

Ah, now the discussion pick up speed. Gives some very interesting insights into what people think. As I said before: The most exciting thread here.

Just my two cents:

About "knowledge": First we would need to clarify, what "knowledge" we are talking about. The knowledge of how one can build up a symphony in the style of Mozart or Beethoven? This knowledge can be considered as obsolete these days. The other day a user here in this forum presented a work in a classical style and he was called "reactionary". Sonata form?...Uuuhh 

About "truth": If you want to find "truth", then become a philosopher. Or priest. Or physicist. But even in physics, the truth changes from time to time.

About "hope": Yes, I understand. Due to the outstanding skills of all of you, the word "hope" can not have a place in your life.



> I'm confused. How do you play them more than once if you don't read music when you play? How do you ensure that the notation, dynamics, and phrasing are exactly how you want them to be and interpretable by other musicians?


He is recording the MIDI data in his sequencer. Can easily be transcribed into standard notation if needed.


----------



## StevenOBrien

juergen said:


> Ah, now the discussion pick up speed. Gives some very interesting insights into what people think. As I said before: The most exciting thread here.
> 
> Just my two cents:
> 
> About "knowledge": First we would need to clarify, what "knowledge" we are talking about. The knowledge of how one can build up a symphony in the style of Mozart or Beethoven? This knowledge can be considered as obsolete these days. The other day a user here in this forum presented a work in a classical style and he was called "reactionary". Sonata form?...Uuuhh
> 
> About "truth": If you want to find "truth", then become a philosopher. Or priest. Or physicist. But even in physics, the truth changes from time to time.
> 
> About "hope": Yes, I understand. Due to the outstanding skills of all of you, the word "hope" can not have a place in your life.
> 
> He is recording the MIDI data in his sequencer. Can easily be transcribed into standard notation if needed.


The knowledge of what will work well in his compositions and what won't. The knowledge of how to write music in such a way that you keep the listener interested. The knowledge earned from listening to your favorite music and figuring out exactly why you like it, and how you can apply that to your own compositions. Nobody said he had to write a symphony in the style of Mozart or Beethoven, or Stravinsky or Schoenberg or Ligeti for that matter.

The truth does not change in physics, our understanding of the truth does. The point of advancing our knowledge of physics is to further our understanding of the absolutes of how the universe works. If we remained content with things such as myth and religious explanations, we would certainly not have the technology we are using to communicate right now.

A priest certainly does not seek the truth. A priest seeks to comfort themselves and their "flock" with contentedness in religious explanations of how the universe operates. They do not ask questions and most of them will discourage questioning the scriptures upon which their beliefs are based, whether or not they actually contain truth. But this is irrelevant to the discussion, and I don't want to spark some sort of religious debate.

You need to be a philosopher to find the truth? So if a loved one dies, you wallow in the self comforting (and damaging) lies that they're still alive, rather than face the truth and move on? If your partner cheats on you, do you wallow in the self comforting lies that she still loves you and face being hurt time and time again, or do you face the truth and move on? Who in the right mind would NOT live for the truth?

Hope is fine. I hope that I live a happy life, but I do everything I can to make sure that hope is realized. I don't just sit around hoping that things will work themselves out. To do so would be delusional.

I agree with your point that the method with which he writes is irrelevant. The only thing the critical listener should care about is the music that emerges as a result. Lunasong makes a good point though, that I think you've missed.


----------



## Ramako

juergen said:


> About "knowledge": First we would need to clarify, what "knowledge" we are talking about. The knowledge of how one can build up a symphony in the style of Mozart or Beethoven? This knowledge can be considered as obsolete these days. The other day a user here in this forum presented a work in a classical style and he was called "reactionary". Sonata form?...Uuuhh


I meant knowledge in the most general sense. Musical knowledge is but a part of that, obviously. I was addressing the hope rather than knowledge theme Billy presented, which is also present in his profile page.



juergen said:


> About "truth": If you want to find "truth", then become a philosopher. Or priest. Or physicist. But even in physics, the truth changes from time to time.


Truth affects everyone, not just those who choose to think about it.



juergen said:


> About "hope": Yes, I understand. Due to the outstanding skills of all of you, the word "hope" can not have a place in your life.


We (I) do not give ourselves as examples, but the great composers of the past, possibly making your sarcasm unwarranted.

In music I can hope to become better. I believe that hope will come true if I apply myself to studying, not just mere theory, but the principles of composition, and to practicing composing. At my regrettably amateurish state, this is not unlikely.

I cannot pretend to know what Billy means by hope, but I'll give some opinions on the matter since that is what forums are for.

Hope is believing that we have a chance of getting what we desire, or as wiki puts it: "Hope is the emotional state which promotes the belief in a positive outcome related to events and circumstances in one's life". Here hope is linked to the idea of a belief that something good will happen, or faith one could say. In this sense hope is intimately linked with knowledge: with knowledge as belief. Knowledge is merely the final state of belief: where one no longer believes something to be true - one knows it. Billy says (or his heroes, more accurately) that we should not care whether something is true or false. But if we do not care about whether something is true or false, then we cannot hope for it, because hope is the belief that something will happen - the assertion of a belief. If we hope for something, then we must care whether it be true or not, because if did not care we cannot hope. However, I may misinterpret his position.


----------



## juergen

> Lunasong makes a good
> point though, that I think you've missed.


What point?


----------



## Lunasong

That the composition should be reproduceable by others. Otherwise, it's transient, ephemeral, or "written" solely for Billy and not for musicians.


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## PetrB

The remedy to all the criticism is simple, and to revise your working habits so something of more interest, indeed ANY interest, may begin to emerge.

TURN OFF ALL THE ELECTRONICS: GET SOME MANUSCRIPT PAPER, A PENCIL AND AN ERASER: COMPOSE BY HAND, WRITING OUT THE INSTRUMENTATION (OR AT LEAST A SKETCH OF THE INSTRUMENTATION) AS YOU GO ALONG. THEN YOU CAN INPUT IT VIA MIDI TO THOSE SAMPLES FOR PLAYBACK.

The way you are working it is far far too too easy easy to cut and paste and to cut and paste and to cut and paste and to cut and paste, or just play / record again and again and again.

There are barely any notable musical ideas anywhere - a bit of a beat and an up and down line which is near a mere scale-like passage isn't much to work with for hundreds of bars.

The proof you are just cranking them out without much thought is 'here is my thirteenth symphony' whipped it up within a week for you. And that is exactly what is sounds like. Not Much, whipped up in a midi system without much thought, or much time taken with thought.

Your self-conceit may not like hearing that, but you really need to listen to what has been said here, and not have your mind already busy preparing a predictably self-defensive counterargument.

Whatever you thought 'work' was, it is nowhere near real 'work' to crank it out fast in a midi system. Have fun, maybe you are indulging yourself with a very satisfying hobby and that is just fine. The minute you put things up in public, expect both general and expert criticism.


----------



## Ravndal

A great man once said to me that you can't be an artist without life experience. (We were discussing evgeny kissin, who have done nothing else than paying piano his whole life. not weird he is a horrible pianist )

Same goes for you Billy. You have to use more time on your symphonies. It doesn't help sitting inside day and night *producing* symphonies. Go outside, get some air, attend parties, get friends, then start work on something and dont stress. use all the time you got (judging by your producing activity, you got a lot of it)


----------



## juergen

Lunasong said:


> That the composition should be reproduceable by others. Otherwise, it's transient, ephemeral, or "written" solely for Billy and not for musicians.


If Billy saves his MIDI files (and I assume he does) then his music is reproduceable in every little detail. Don't see your point.


----------



## Billy

A Rum Symphony is the same as the other non-classical symphonies I made using one of my synthesizers. I call it that because I was thinking of the story by Robert Louis Stevenson called "The Bottle Imp," and because I live in Hawaii, where that story takes place. 

In my non-musical life I choose to keep studying literature, reading and rereading my favorite books all of the time. I love the stories especially of five authors: William Shakespeare, Plato, Homer, the Bible's, and Sigmund Freud. I like to find parallel themes in these authors' stories which help to illuminate the characters and their own lives. Plato's Socrates never wrote anything down, Moses never got to see the Promised Land, Achielles never let go of his rage, Hamlet never ceased being conscious of all (until his death), and Freud's neurotics never would be cured if they resisted their treatments and never learned to love. I myself am a kind of happily cured remnant, which I attribute to my own knowing (my Gnosis) which I think came after absorbing a great variety of the best of what the best literature has to offer, especially through the great characters. 

After reading so many stories, I just don't realize that it is important whether anything is true or not. There are many kinds of belief though which I do find interesting, but truth is not. If you learn to throw out the window out-of-date concepts like "truth," for better, more useful concepts or final vocabularies, then you can experiment with what works better for the time to help you cope with your society, environment, family, or goals. This kind of thinking and belief is the one which values the imagination over all moralisms. Plato wished to banish the poets from his Utopian society of the Republic on the basis that the mythologies of some poets were false, and could make children less courageous because they would fear things that do not exist. However, I am on the side of the poets, and I consider myself a Romantic, one who likes to see the bigger picture. As for Tikvah, or hope, it is the better substitute for knowledge. Instead of seeking knowledge, I seek hope. I am not saying hope is all we need, we still need love and money, or I should say love WITH money. I am a selfish solitary reading-addict I know. I want to be a better person. 

Maybe there is the truth that can set you free. However, I am not a philosopher though; all philosophers are damned.


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## beetzart

Is that some justification for playing random keys on a synthesiser and calling it a 'symphony', Billy?


----------



## Billy

I am sure there will be a day when I no longer will be writing symphonies. I don't know when that will be, though I feel some would wish that day would come soon; and they may be ready to talk about my steam running out. I am not tired now though of anything I do, so I will go on. Before the technology was made accessible to me to produce many over a short period of time, I spent some of my time every day playing on my Wurlitzer piano, and before that, a Yamaha DX27 synthesizer. I also listened to the best composers of the world, Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, Stravinsky, Monteverdi, and fell in love with their music as we all should. I have much experience playing piano on my own, musicianship runs in my family, going back to famous Hungarian folk composers. Though I am not a music critic, I think much about music. I believe I have a good ability to create music by ear just by playing it live. Now that I have a professional synthesizer, my goal as a musician/composer is to try to make my future a little better by recording these symphonies, and more, to listen to and share. I see good things for our generations ahead and I want to be a part of trying to make it a better place for them too. Samuel Johnson once said: A man is not obligated to do all that he can. He is a hero of mine, keeping me on my path by helping me limit some of my desires
which might block my own creativity.

Gnostic Classical Symphony No.7:


----------



## Delicious Manager

juergen said:


> If Billy saves his MIDI files (and I assume he does) then his music is reproduceable in every little detail. Don't see your point.


Yes, but only by HIM.


----------



## juergen

Delicious Manager said:


> Yes, but only by HIM.


That's not correct. Any MIDI data can be transcribed into standard notation as I said before. There are people who are specialized in that task, if he can't do it self. So there is no serious reason for him to grapple with the notation.


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## Billy

Gnostic Classical Symphony No.8:


----------



## paulc

> "That's not correct. Any MIDI data can be transcribed into standard notation as I said before. There are people who are specialized in that task, if he can't do it self. So there is no serious reason for him to grapple with the notation."


Except that the chances of anyone who can produce the notation being willing to spend hours pro-bono enhancing the raw musical ideas and MIDI data of someone with limited musical education are slim. When other aspiring composers have already produced a full orchestral score themselves, who do you think will be given priority in rehearsal and performance? This is not a matter of artistic worth, it's practicality. Hope doesn't count for much, unfortunately.


----------



## beetzart

Billy said:


> I am sure there will be a day when I no longer will be writing symphonies. I don't know when that will be, though I feel some would wish that day would come soon; and they may be ready to talk about my steam running out. I am not tired now though of anything I do, so I will go on. Before the technology was made accessible to me to produce many over a short period of time, I spent some of my time every day playing on my Wurlitzer piano, and before that, a Yamaha DX27 synthesizer. I also listened to the best composers of the world, Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, Stravinsky, Monteverdi, and fell in love with their music as we all should. I have much experience playing piano on my own, musicianship runs in my family, going back to famous Hungarian folk composers. Though I am not a music critic, I think much about music. I believe I have a good ability to create music by ear just by playing it live. Now that I have a professional synthesizer, my goal as a musician/composer is to try to make my future a little better by recording these symphonies, and more, to listen to and share. I see good things for our generations ahead and I want to be a part of trying to make it a better place for them too. Samuel Johnson once said: A man is not obligated to do all that he can. He is a hero of mine, keeping me on my path by helping me limit some of my desires
> which might block my own creativity.
> 
> Gnostic Classical Symphony No.7:


It's probably me, and I'm sure I'll be put right, but that doesn't really make any sense. It's slightly contradictory because if I read that as an small bio about a composer whose music I hadn't yet heard, I would be very excited about listening to it. Especially as you mention those great composers whose music you love, but I would be hugely disappointed with your output. Maybe one or two pieces experimenting with the style you are adopting at present, then try different ideas. But I would rather drink sea water then sit through more of the turgid sludge you keep churning out. To justify you have a good ability to create music there needs to be something more then what you are currently doing, which is insulting to people who actually put effort and thought into their works.

Sorry, but I've tried to give some advice, like others have, but you just arrogantly ignore it and pump out more junk 30 minutes of noise. It would take me a year to produce a piece that long, due to various personal reasons, and the need for suitable inspiration.


----------



## Lunasong

Billy said:


> I am sure there will be a day when I no longer will be writing symphonies.


Billy, I hope you will keep writing and playing for your own pleasure as long as you enjoy it. I do not find external value in your compositions and will no longer listen to them.
I am grateful that you have decided to post your work in just one thread and not multiple threads, because you are extremely prolific and I've enjoyed reading the comments and criticisms of your pieces.


----------



## Billy

I remember when the US Army blasted bad rock music to the compound where Manuel Noriega stayed so as to disturb his life. There is gain as well as loss from listening to any kind of music no matter what. What you and I gain from Mozart in private pleasure, you and I will lose in possibilities for our own musical immortalities because he has already said what we have been trying to say in a certain way all our life, and he left us no more space to take musical action in that same way. I do not need contemplation in my life, nor do I welcome it. I do not wish to read criticism if it itself is poorly written because criticism is a kind of art just as music. The interpretation in music of music is special to me, as well as good interpretations of music which can be put to use by everybody, general listeners and expert listeners. I do not care about accuracy in criticism or in life as much as whether the criticism or life are themselves high art. 

Mockery as criticism never works because it is bad for the character of the complainer. Bad criticism for me is like being blasted by bad rock music while at home. I suppose the intent of bad criticism is just as sincere and arrogant as what it would like say of my music as being. 
True criticism works because it leaves wonderful wounds which are in the memory forever. The kind of pain that good criticism accomplishes is a kind of pleasure because learning should be allied with delight, not necessarily accuracy.


----------



## beetzart

Are you above criticism then, Billy? Is your music on a higher plane to us mere mortals, as if we just don't 'get it'? Billy, it's simple; your music isn't very good, but it might have been. You've not heeded any advice and continued in the same vain. This attitude has produced over 20 hours of of the same thing, no contrast, no variation, no impact, no inventiveness, and no craft. 

I admire your passion for the arts, that is great and all too rare to find in everyday life. But learn something from it, find out why those masters did what they did and find some inspiration. Study techniques across the whole of music, and find the nuances that made great composers so unique.


----------



## Billy

I never said I was immortal, like say Socrates does of the soul. I have made friends with the necessity of my own death, and am a realist. Grandiosity does not appeal to me. Plato did say that music was the highest art. And, the critic Walter Pater said that all art strives to the condition of music. In Shakespeare, I have learned that one thing that makes the characters great is that they don't really listen to each other but they do overhear themselves, and change as a result of this overhearing. The other critic Harold Bloom is my guide in this matter. If this can be applied to music, then none of us would really idealize making music into some sort of divine entity, none of us would think of music as nothing but human play and replay. To give to music divine qualities, and not to think of it as merely a human construct constructed by humans to accomplish certain social goals, seems to me to be a bad idea. Plato also said of our judgments that they are basically imperfect opinions. That we must reach a higher knowledge by contemplating the Forms, and that was the only way towards truth. Even Socrates was an ironist when it came to wisdom. I do not care for contemplation, but action. That is the reason why I seek hope in place of knowledge. Love with money is not bad either to find and/or share. Usually love and wisdom are opposites though. I am not a Kantian moral philosopher, I do not think that just because I do something, like make music one way, means that everybody must do it that way as if my rules are the correct ones to live by. I would rather keep saying to myself "Why not?" or "Let's try it this way and see what happens." I do ask of others to entertain me instead of me them.


----------



## Ramako

Billy said:


> Usually love and wisdom are opposites though.


That is false wisdom then.


----------



## beetzart

Billy, why are you quoting Ancient Greek philosophers in an attempt to justify your random music? Stop trying to be all deep and profound, and possibly explain how you can produce 30 odd 'symphonies' in a few days and rationally expect the criticism to be all glowing and positive. Please.

Also, can you remember all your works in your head?


----------



## PetrB

Billy said:


> A Rum Symphony is the same as the other non-classical symphonies I made using one of my synthesizers. I call it that because I was thinking of the story by Robert Louis Stevenson called "The Bottle Imp," and because I live in Hawaii, where that story takes place.
> 
> In my non-musical life I choose to keep studying literature, reading and rereading my favorite books all of the time. I love the stories especially of five authors: William Shakespeare, Plato, Homer, the Bible's, and Sigmund Freud. I like to find parallel themes in these authors' stories which help to illuminate the characters and their own lives. Plato's Socrates never wrote anything down, Moses never got to see the Promised Land, Achielles never let go of his rage, Hamlet never ceased being conscious of all (until his death), and Freud's neurotics never would be cured if they resisted their treatments and never learned to love. I myself am a kind of happily cured remnant, which I attribute to my own knowing (my Gnosis) which I think came after absorbing a great variety of the best of what the best literature has to offer, especially through the great characters.
> 
> After reading so many stories, I just don't realize that it is important whether anything is true or not. There are many kinds of belief though which I do find interesting, but truth is not. If you learn to throw out the window out-of-date concepts like "truth," for better, more useful concepts or final vocabularies, then you can experiment with what works better for the time to help you cope with your society, environment, family, or goals. This kind of thinking and belief is the one which values the imagination over all moralisms. Plato wished to banish the poets from his Utopian society of the Republic on the basis that the mythologies of some poets were false, and could make children less courageous because they would fear things that do not exist. However, I am on the side of the poets, and I consider myself a Romantic, one who likes to see the bigger picture. As for Tikvah, or hope, it is the better substitute for knowledge. Instead of seeking knowledge, I seek hope. I am not saying hope is all we need, we still need love and money, or I should say love WITH money. I am a selfish solitary reading-addict I know. I want to be a better person.
> 
> Maybe there is the truth that can set you free. However, I am not a philosopher though; all philosophers are damned.


The literature you like / love has a line, a point, and it develops and changes. Your music is clearly not thought about in that it does none of those things. Transliterating those qualities to music is a good challenge and goal for you. The rest, well, the rest is air without a direction or purpose.


----------



## Renaissance

Billy said:


> I spent some of my time every day playing on my Wurlitzer piano, and before that, a Yamaha DX27 synthesizer. I also listened to the best composers of the world, Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, Stravinsky, Monteverdi, and fell in love with their music as we all should. I have much experience playing piano on my own, musicianship runs in my family, going back to famous Hungarian folk composers.


Why not composing piano sonatas then ? Or any other form of piano music... Wouldn't be that better for your creativity ? I mean, piano pieces are the simplest, they don't need orchestration, they don't need arrangement...it is only the melody and the harmony. On the other hand, symphonies require very many technical skills along with the musical inspiration. Skills that you obviously don't have at this point, sorry to say that. I am really curious about your abilities in producing only solo piano music.


----------



## juergen

I've just listened again to the second movement of twenty-three (between 07:00 and 14:20) a couple of times. It starts with a theme that could come from the Scherzo of a Bruckner symphony. But of course it immediately disappears in this typical Billy cacophony. Later, the piece miraculously takes shape again and some other motifs appear. Some of them only short, just as if they wanted to be saved from drowning. I could write a review of a whole page, but in English, this is not easy for me.

Anyway, absolutely awesome, that piece. I would call it genious, but that's probably the wrong word since I know that these things more or less happen accidentally. But finally the music is there, and that's all that matters. If Billy produces 300 hours of music and if he then has 1 hour of music at that level then his whole effort has paid off.

Honestly folks, if I would hear anything from anyone of you that comes even close to that, I would take this discussion a little more seriously. 

Btw: Good luck at your competition thing. Bye.


----------



## Ramako

juergen said:


> Honestly folks, if I would hear something from you that comes even close to that, I would take this discussion a little more seriously.


This thread is about to explode.


----------



## Billy

Thank you Juergen for your kind words about Symphony No.23 and others. I hope that I can make more music that you find interesting. Thanks for listening.

Renaissance, I have made a few piano pieces some of which I call Odes. They also are on my YouTube site.

Ramako, what you said about the Golden Rectangle interests me.

PetrB, I don't know if literature in that way is really compatible with music.

Lunasong, I think that you're gonna miss out on something coming up!

Gnostic Classical Symphony No.9:


----------



## Billy

Gnostic Classical Symphony No.10:


----------



## StevenOBrien

Billy said:


> PetrB, I don't know if literature in that way is really compatible with music.


Most of the lectures I linked to on the first page of this thread would convince you otherwise.


----------



## Kopachris

Oh, boy.

I composed my first piece of "music" in about a month. I was really proud of myself for finishing it, yet I realized the whole time that it did not sound like I wanted it to. I committed myself to learning music theory so that I could understand why it didn't sound very musical and could improve myself thereby. And I'm still learning, not to understand why I didn't like my first piece, which I know very well, now, but to understand what mistakes I should make and what mistakes I should avoid.

Here is a quote commonly (and erroneously, though that matters not, for there is truth in it regardless) attributed to Brahms:


> Inspiration is of such importance in composing, but by no means all that there is to it. Structure is just as consequential, for without craftsmanship, inspiration is a 'mere reed shaken in the wind' or 'sounding brass or tinkling cymbals'. Great compositions are not the fruits of inspiration alone, but of severe, laborious and painstaking toil. No composition will live long unless it has both inspiration and craftsmanship, which Beethoven had to a superlative degree. There also must be in relation, with inspiration and craftsmanship, a natural aptitude, where ideas come to you with more or less no conscious effort, with a sense of comfort and relative ease, like a aspiration being fulfilled. But parallel to that, as seen in Beethoven's sketchbooks, comes the proof that he toiled incessantly in order to leave us such masterpieces. Only with your religiosity, God's inspiration, and the utilization of all three, can one achieve mastery of classical music composition and achieve true fame and immortality, which is what oblivion constantly tries to challenge. This is the proven universal formula for success in music and any and all other endeavors of human life.


That is all.


----------



## Billy

I think that it is the past great who elect the next into fame and not a person's hard work or ease.


----------



## juergen

Just listened to Gnostic 9. Great. Your style is really best effective when you speed up your playing.


----------



## Crudblud

With my latest work I have attempted to capture the manic yet peaceful essence of Billy's style; a whirlwind of sound that belies a calm centre, like a mighty storm. I have tried to keep this full of positivity, but there is also a bleakness, a seedy undercurrent, as I have included symbolic references to Faulkner.

I felt it was best to post it here, in this shrine to TC's favourite composer.

Rapsodie symphonique sur le nom de Billy


----------



## Billy

Good clean fun!


----------



## juergen

If others start to find inspiration by a composers work, then the composer really made it!


----------



## Billy

Classical Symphony No.45 (there were 10 Classical Gnostic Symphonies, and 34 Regular ones before them):


----------



## Renaissance

Classical symphonies, Gnostic classical symphonies, Gnostic symphonies... not prolific only because of the number of pieces, but also because of the number of genres he composed.


----------



## beetzart

Billy, you would have achieved the same result if you had kept one finger on the same key for a 27 minute long tied note. And that is what you have effectively done 45 times. Being prolific with the same symmetrical idea won't achieve you anything, I would just be happy to produce ONE 20 minute symphony in a lifetime. Billy, your music is boring.


----------



## StevenOBrien

juergen said:


> If others start to find inspiration by a composers work, then the composer really made it!


I think Herr Mozart would disagree.


----------



## juergen

StevenOBrien said:


> I think Herr Mozart would disagree.


Good point! :lol:


----------



## Ramako

There was a composer called Billy,
Who everyone else thought was silly
because he kept writing
while they kept on fighting
to stop him composing more symphonies.

At first they try to instruct him,
The effects it has are but slim,
So they say he's a phony
his music's cacophony
But still he just seems to ignore them.

A symph'y a day keeps the doctor away:
They cannot sway Billy with ought that they say,
It's awful says Steven
It's heaven says juergen
And Beetzart says "talk to us Billy".

But then it turns out he seeks hope,
not truth, so they deem he's on dope,
off-topic a smidgeon,
they argue religion,
philosophy and the theories of Plato.

But what is so great about Billy Mcbride
is not whether he's genius or full of false pride,
but that he kept writing
while the rest kept on fighting
and that he took all the flak in his stride.

Dedicated to a remarkable thread :tiphat:


----------



## juergen

Ramako said:


> There was a composer called Billy, ...


:clap: It's always good to have alternatives. For example, to become a writer if the career as a composer does not go well.


----------



## Billy

Thanks Ramako for sharing the fun poem! I like to think that usually when people like to argue with me that they are really just probably hungry for a good meal. People should eat more good food if they can instead of arguing since I doubt that anybody can really learn anything from anybody else. They can only be more inspired by them. I am not out to change anybody though.


----------



## Billy

Classical Symphony No.46:


----------



## beetzart

Billy said:


> Classical Symphony No.46:


Just listened to Haydn's 7th symphony before yours, Billy. You should try doing that sometime, you might learn something and stop stealing the urine!


----------



## mleghorn

Billy "composes" dozens of "symphonies" so he can say "look at me, I composed a bunch of symphonies". Clearly quality is the last thing on his mind, otherwise he would have appreciated of all the feedback we've given him, and would take his work seriously enough to spend more than a few hours on each symphony. Can you imagine Beethoven composing a symphony in a few hours? He worked on his 5th for several years. Brahms worked on his 1st for almost 20 years. Billy has an extremely shallow and narrow view of classical music, and he is very unrealistic about how he judges his own "work".

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be mean, but it really bugs me when people don't even have an iota of curiosity to find out what classical music is all about, and they act like the know all there is to know. It bugs me when I hear people say stuff like, "I like classical music, I just can't name all of the composers", or when they say their favorite classical composer is Gershwin (don't get me wrong, I like Gershwin), or worse yet, "I composed 50 symphonies", and they all sound like they were composed by a toddler fiddling on a Fisher-Price keyboard. It's not like the meaning of music is hidden. Just go to Amazon or iTunes and download some Beethoven symphonies, and enjoy listening to them! Easy to do, if you're CURIOUS!


----------



## Delicious Manager

mleghorn said:


> Billy "composes" dozens of "symphonies" so he can say "look at me, I composed a bunch of symphonies". Clearly quality is the last thing on his mind, otherwise he would have appreciated of all the feedback we've given him, and would take his work seriously enough to spend more than a few hours on each symphony. Can you imagine Beethoven composing a symphony in a few hours? He worked on his 5th for several years. Brahms worked on his 1st for almost 20 years. Billy has an extremely shallow and narrow view of classical music, and he is very unrealistic about how he judges his own "work".
> 
> I'm sorry, I don't mean to be mean, but it really bugs me when people don't even have an iota of curiosity to find out what classical music is all about, and they act like the know all there is to know. It bugs me when I hear people say stuff like, "I like classical music, I just can't name all of the composers", or when they say their favorite classical composer is Gershwin (don't get me wrong, I like Gershwin), or worse yet, "I composed 50 symphonies", and they all sound like they were composed by a toddler fiddling on a Fisher-Price keyboard. It's not like the meaning of music is hidden. Just go to Amazon or iTunes and download some Beethoven symphonies, and enjoy listening to them! Easy to do, if you're CURIOUS!


I think you should be as mean as you like - the guy doesn't deserve any better. And yet, here you (and everyone else) are feeding his attention-seeking with yet more posts.

Ignore the idiot and he'll get bored and go away.


----------



## Crudblud

In case you hadn't noticed, he hasn't posted anything in four days. He's probably gone, at least for a little while.


----------



## jani

I think that he is composing a relentless Octet fuge. So it might take a while.


----------



## Delicious Manager

Crudblud said:


> In case you hadn't noticed, he hasn't posted anything in four days. He's probably gone, at least for a little while.


He's probably working on his next symphonic trilogy! Oh, he'll be back as long as people give him the attention he craves.


----------



## Billy

Classical Symphony No. 47:


----------



## Toddlertoddy

Billy said:


> Classical Symphony No. 47:


It's better, but it's still bad.


----------



## clavichorder

This thread is hilarious! How did I miss it?


----------



## jani

Has Billy stopped composing?


----------



## Delicious Manager

clavichorder said:


> This thread is hilarious! How did I miss it?


You got lucky?


----------



## Delicious Manager

jani said:


> Has Billy stopped composing?


We can but hope!


----------



## tdc

I hear lots of great ideas in these works I just crave for some of them to developed, refined a little. Its like each piece is total overkill, and there are the seeds therein for a thousand more pieces. Maybe Billy is ahead of his time, but the pieces presented in this way give me little musical satisfaction and make me crave a sense of direction, some restraint, and some forethought.

It is too much at once, and far too random and meandering to produce much musical enjoyment for me, though I do hear a lot of potential personally.


----------



## Delicious Manager

tdc said:


> I hear lots of great ideas in these works I just crave for some of them to developed, refined a little. Its like each piece is total overkill, and there are the seeds therein for a thousand more pieces. Maybe Billy is ahead of his time, but the pieces presented in this way give me little musical satisfaction and make me crave a sense of direction, some restraint, and some forethought.
> 
> It is too much at once, and far too random and meandering to produce much musical enjoyment for me, though I do hear a lot of potential personally.


I liken your hearing some good ideas to that analogy of giving enough chimpanzees enough typewriters to write the works of Shakespeare. Billy produces HOURS of inane musical ramblings. The law of averages suggests that he would include some 'good ideas' in there purely by accident. I don't equate that with 'a lot of potential'.


----------



## juergen

tdc said:


> I hear lots of great ideas in these works I just crave for some of them to developed, refined a little. Its like each piece is total overkill, and there are the seeds therein for a thousand more pieces. Maybe Billy is ahead of his time, but the pieces presented in this way give me little musical satisfaction and make me crave a sense of direction, some restraint, and some forethought.
> 
> It is too much at once, and far too random and meandering to produce much musical enjoyment for me, though I do hear a lot of potential personally.


Your analysis coincides almost exactly with my opinion. Yes, the pieces would need some refinement. The material would need to be sorted, the instrumentation could be improved and some dynamic accents also would not hurt. But one must see that Billy found a very unique, personal musical style. Other composers are looking their entire lives for a personal style. Therefore, I think all the advice that only would lead to a radical change of his style ('go and learn music theory') completely misplaced.

I agree with the critics insofar as I also think that the good ideas in Billy's pieces are not really 'ideas', but probably arise more or less randomly. But in my opinion that does not matter. What has me intrigued most is that Billy is able to pull off a symphony within few hours. It also brought me to rethink my personal way of working and for this I am grateful to Billy.


----------



## Delicious Manager

juergen said:


> What has me intrigued most is that Billy is able to pull off a symphony within few hours. It also brought me to rethink my personal way of working and for this I am grateful to Billy.


Billy hasn't pulled off a single 'symphony'; he has merely produced improvised ramblings - nothing remotely symphonic about any of it.


----------



## clavichorder

Whatever you might say about the theoretical content of Billy's music, you have to admit that he's not just making 'random' improvisations. Billy most certainly has a particular idea about the sounds he likes to make. I can't bear to sit through a whole 'symphony' and yet they have a certain quality to them that shows a certain personality. Billy is certainly a unique individual, and odd though he may be, he has that peculiar capacity to exist in his own rich inner world and it shines through in whatever work he produces, incoherent and strange though it may be.

I find his artistic persona both absurdly funny in a somewhat derogatory sense, as well as really quite endearing at the same time, because he appears to be utterly sincere and particular.


----------



## Delicious Manager

Whatever you say, clavi, whatever you say


----------



## Billy

For those of you who are listening, thanks! I have been busy writing more books, and doing some rock synthesizer in addition, posting it to Youtube, when I can. More symphonies to come. I have been shrugging off the bad criticisms as you know. There is no point in getting angry, and hatred is a useless emotion.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Billy said:


> For those of you who are listening, thanks! I have been busy writing more books, and doing some rock synthesizer in addition, posting it to Youtube, when I can. More symphonies to come. I have been shrugging off the bad criticisms as you know. There is no point in getting angry, and hatred is a useless emotion.


What about the good criticisms? How have you improved?


----------



## Ramako

Billy returns!!!!!!


----------



## Delicious Manager

Billy said:


> For those of you who are listening, thanks! I have been busy writing more books, and doing some rock synthesizer in addition, posting it to Youtube, when I can. More symphonies to come. I have been shrugging off the bad criticisms as you know. There is no point in getting angry, and hatred is a useless emotion.


There is no hatred from this quarter, I assure you; merely bemused exasperation.


----------



## Billy

I think that the study of classical music is a discipline but not a science. It seems more of a private luxury than a scientific solidarity. In my own compositions I use tools other than theories to make the music. The only studying I ever did for music was just to listen to and love the classics, I never contemplate them, but instead act with them in my consciousness.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Billy said:


> I think that the study of classical music is a discipline but not a science. It seems more of a private luxury than a scientific solidarity. In my own compositions I use tools other than theories to make the music. The only studying I ever did for music was just to listen to and love the classics, I never contemplate them, but instead act with them in my consciousness.


Would you consider philosophy as an alternative hobby to composing symphonies?


----------



## Nope

This thread is gold. Lets keep it alive


----------



## clavichorder

Nope said:


> This thread is gold. Lets keep it alive


It always puts a big smile on my face!


----------



## MoonlightSonata

clavichorder said:


> It always puts a big smile on my face!


My face varied between :lol:, and .


----------



## Kije

There has been some conversation about what a symphony should be, or shouldn't be. I think that Leif Segerstam would have a lot of things to say on this. Please take a look at Segerstam's symphony no. 212.


----------



## DeepR

I checked out his youtube channel and he is still very much active, but instead of "symphonies" he is now creating/improvising electronic/synthesizer music, all in enormous quantities of course. He also sings on some of them. 
His last "symphony" seems to be no. 62, created about a year ago. Well, rock on brother!


----------



## Billy

Some mallet music I just made. 



 It is called "Ode to Robert Frost." There is a plethora of mallet sounds that I like in it so I wanted to share it.


----------



## nikola

Billy said:


> Some mallet music I just made.
> 
> 
> 
> It is called "Ode to Robert Frost." There is a plethora of mallet sounds that I like in it so I wanted to share it.


Impressive!

This thread is also impressive and crazy and I really don't know what to say. I really don't want to comment the quality of your work that seems to varies and evolve in some strange path.
But it is interesting to see that someone is doing so much something that he likes to do. As long as it fulfills you, continue doing it. I believe that your urge of expressing yourself like this is way more important than trying to please everybody.


----------



## Billy

Hi all,

Thanks, nikola for the feedback. New experimental symphony: "Symphony 65"






- Billy


----------



## Bored

It's good- up to a point. There are a few things with this symphony that you created that i'd like to point out. I know you probably won't care what I have to say since you are an "artiste", but this is just my input. It is also important to keep in mind that Picasso once said, "Good artists copy, great artists steal." To be a great artist, I believe that you have to take another composer's style and add your own interpretation on it which comes naturally with talent. Beethoven did this with Mozart as an example, where in many of his early symphonies and works you can hear quite clearly the influence Mozart had on him. Some parts even sounding identical in style. It was only afterwards that Beethoven was able to evolve from this, and develop his own trademark style. You can't just take two giant leaps forward and expect to change everything, it has to happen in small, variable steps.

Anyways, now going towards your work. The symphony sounds very gothic which I like.  Keep up with that, however, the beginning is too predictable and carries on for far too long. There is a large break in between the beginning phrases and it gets annoying, because my ears feel like it's being ignorantly carried on for far longer than it should be and I am expecting a melody to burst out soon.

One thing I see in amateur works is that they automatically change to minor for no good reason other than having nowhere else to turn to musically. I see this after the prolonged introduction, and trust me, I did this *A LOT* before I started seeking other alternatives. It's okay to change to a minor, but without a greater purpose other than to "make the music sound more interesting", it usually always ends up lacking in the innovative department and still carries on the same themes.

There is also a lack of direction in the piece. It comes off as something that tries or wants to have structure, but ends up getting lost somewhere in the "Musical Woods" if I may say. I suggest that if you want your symphony to have structure, spend more time on it and study how other composers do it themselves. There is a formula that the greats have used for centuries for a reason. Because it sounds good to our ears, that's it.

However, I do believe you have potential and that there is a longing for structure that calls out at me in this piece. Especially in choral works, STRUCTURE is KEY. Listen to any works that require vocals, whether that be modern pop songs (Justin Bieber) to Beethoven's "Choral" Symphony. There is the chorus, bridge, etc. While you may not incorporate those things in your work (you might not want to), just keep in mind that there must be STRUCTURE when you are composing with vocals especially. When your symphony does not carry a strong and definite one, your vocals suffer as a consequence. And that is what i'm hearing, and that is what makes this symphony weaker in a way.

Overall, i'd say it is a pretty good homage to gothic music and culture, but the thing is, gothic music requires structure the most. Look at their architecture, EXTREMELY structured and planned out, balance kept in mind with all the many details which gothic architecture holds, harmony stringing everything together. I hope you keep some of what i've said here in mind, and never give up. One day, if you listen to what has been presented to you by other members who spent time out of their lives to take a listen, I guarantee your next symphonies will even amaze yourself.  I understand you, I was like you, composing "avant garde" music without planned direction or structure of any kind. I hope you continue your passion for music the most. Good luck.


----------



## dzc4627

Billy the Prolific Legend. His name will truly be The Ultimate Epithet of Our Musical Generation.


----------



## Billy

I realized while reading my thread that I never mentioned my first symphony. I would like to share it now in a playlist on YouTube which contains all of the symphonies I have made so far. In my top ten favorites Playlist on YouTube, another playlist of over 70 compositions, only one of my symphonies made the list. Although I mostly do electronic music, pretty much everyday, I mention this because I have done some classical, the symphonies, which are found to listen to in this playlist of my Symphonies:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLkICyI5meRAoA4-g_JfnTj1lW332QAqMe

The first symphony's third movement is my favorite, and there are two versions in the playlist of the first symphony for those who would like to hear some of it.

I would love to be more active on this good site for classical music reference. Thank you for your time. - Billy McBride


----------



## prasad94

I'm sorry Billy, your work is utterly terrible I must say. There is no one, not even the great Mozart who could write a symphony in a single day. 

Your samples sound cheap and dry, very unrealistic. I take it you've never seen a live orchestra? You don't seem to have an understanding of what music is, or the functionality of harmonic and melodic sequences.

I do not write this in jest or as a critic, I write in truth. The sky is blue, Trump is the president of the US and your music is terrible. I am truly sorry.


----------



## prasad94

I laughed a bit too hard at this :lol:


----------



## Billy

prasad94 said:


> I'm sorry Billy, your work is utterly terrible I must say. There is no one, not even the great Mozart who could write a symphony in a single day.
> 
> Your samples sound cheap and dry, very unrealistic. I take it you've never seen a live orchestra? You don't seem to have an understanding of what music is, or the functionality of harmonic and melodic sequences.
> 
> I do not write this in jest or as a critic, I write in truth. The sky is blue, Trump is the president of the US and your music is terrible. I am truly sorry.


Other than the fact that Mozart is obviously great, I am not sure you know what you are talking about prasad94. Music like this is what I mostly do:


----------



## dzc4627

Billy said:


> Other than the fact that Mozart is obviously great, I am not sure you know what you are talking about prasad94. Music like this is what I mostly do:


Yeah and it sounds bad, with no purpose or point.


----------



## Billy

dzc4627 said:


> Yeah and it sounds bad, with no purpose or point.


Sorry you feel that way, dzc4627, but I think you are wrong this time.


----------



## dzc4627

Billy said:


> Sorry you feel that way, dzc4627, but I think you are wrong this time.


It's quite alright.


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

All power to Billy and don't listen to them....... keep doing it


----------



## Samuel Kristopher

I could appreciate this music on its own merit - as a series of improvisational/experimental pieces, I just wish you wouldn't call it a symphony. You said yourself that you avoid the grandiose, yet adopting this title for your work is easily the most pretentious thing I've seen on this forum. Stringing together a drone/ambience of scales and chords into four sections does not make a symphony. 

Symphonies come in many shapes in sizes, but whether it has one movement or eleven, they are invariably deeply, deeply structured pieces that employ repetition, variation, transpositions, and thematic contrasting of material. Sonata form is almost obligatory in the first movement. Traditionally, symphonies have been a composer's stamp of competence - a statement that they are ready to be counted among the best and that they are prepared for the criticism that follows. 

Given that you are completely closed to all criticism and your work has no semblance of structure, I struggle to see why you insist on hijacking the term "symphony". I mean, nobody can stop you, just like nobody can stop me from erecting a cardboard box and calling it post-Baroque German architecture. I shouldn't be surprised if people laugh at me, though. It's simply pretentious, because it's obvious to most of us here that you either have no idea what a symphony is in technical terms or no real interest in actually trying to compose one. Especially your 'classical symphonies', whereby you essentially compare yourself to Haydn and Mozart. 

As I say, I have no problem with the music you write. It makes for some lovely background music, actually. I just recommend you have the gall to call it what it is - that you stop portraying yourself as someone that you aren't.


----------



## Billy

Hi Samuel, thanks for your feedback. I am uneasy about any view when it appears to have a "God's-eye" perspective, seeing all, and knowing all. When I call my music "symphonies," I think I am trying to lessen a little in the realm of music that God's-eye view. I do not know it all musically (how could anybody?), and you are right, I don't like grandioseness in things like matters of the Self, although vastness (and kindness) I may say I admire.

Also, the music I just shared, this music: 



 does say it has a first movement in its title, but with this same one, "Headbuttressia" I just want to point out that I did not call it a symphony.


----------



## Samuel Kristopher

I don't see how calling it a symphony makes it have any less of a 'Gods-eye' perspective  I just mean that, to me, if anything, it seems to do the opposite by suggesting that it has many things that it doesn't. 

I think I share your admiration of vastness though, and there are platforms for "vast" and "multiple-movement works" other than a symphony. The simplest is probably just a "Suite", and while being quite a modest form, some epic and grand music in the classical repertoire has come from suites (think Scheherazade, Holst's Planets). Other multi-movement genres include the Concerto, Sonata, and Trio/Quartet/Quintet etc, but they don't fit your form any better than symphony.

It seems to me though that you are more interested in self-expression, exploration, and freedom from the strictures of classical form. If I had to make up a genre for the music that you've written, I'd almost certainly include the word 'Impromptu' in it, which describes a free-form work that should be played with the spirit of improvisation, which I think doesn't need to extend far to include your style. Maybe 'Impromptu Suite for Orchestra'? I actually like the sound of that a lot. 

Almost makes me want to write one xD


----------



## dzc4627

Billy said:


> Also, the music I just shared, this music:
> 
> 
> 
> does say it has a first movement in its title, but with this same one, "Headbuttressia" I just want to point out that I did not call it a symphony.


Good, because it isn't classical music.


----------



## KenOC

dzc4627 said:


> Good, because it isn't classical music.


If we can call 4'33" "music", then certainly it's hard to object to calling this "classical music".


----------



## dzc4627

I'll be the first to tell you 4'33 isn't classical music. It is probably _music_ just because a big part of music is silence, and thus taking that to its most extreme does still fit within the parameters of music. It is $h*t music, though, and a gimmick that I as a composer would dread to be remembered for. Anyway, Billy's Headbuttressia is definitely music, but not classical music. More like techno or dance music or something. So it is good that he didn't call it a symphony.


----------



## Francis Poulenc

His "Ode to Robert Frost" (



), easily sounds like something Steve Reich could have written. This guy is living proof that contemporary classical music is written by talentless morons. The only people who "like" it are deeply insecure and only listen to it to feel edgy. Nobody listens to this crap for pleasure. If it were "Ode to Robert Frost" by Ligeti, the same people here who are putting it down would be drooling over it.


----------



## JamieHoldham

After reading the description of the above mentioned video, all I will say is I am concerned about Billy's mental health.. not to be rude, but 1150 videos of hours upon hours individually of random noise, effects and instruments banging each other like a circus. And you say you married Angels and you have Angel children?

Seriously, you should consider help, not to be rude again, may be it's something to do with your religous beliefs, religon has that kind of power over people.


----------



## Billy

JamieHoldham said:


> After reading the description of the above mentioned video, all I will say is I am concerned about Billy's mental health.. not to be rude, but 1150 videos of hours upon hours individually of random noise, effects and instruments banging each other like a circus. And you say you married Angels and you have Angel children?
> 
> Seriously, you should consider help, not to be rude again, may be it's something to do with your religous beliefs, religon has that kind of power over people.


I have mentioned that these Angels I have get much credit for he music, writings, and art I make, however my saying that I have them does count for some as schizophrenic experience, but who cares? Ralph Waldo Emerson trusted his "God within" just like Socrates trusted his own Daimon, just like I trust my very own "Angels within." They help, so I give them credit. I do not consider that a religious formulation to have them share some of the credit, it is just being honest and kind to them. I have made much music, and written many things too. I am lucky to have the energy to create what I have and have good clean fun while doing so. For the most part, the Angels are publicly secular since religion and one's private salvation should always remain a private matter. If Emerson's "God within" makes him look schizophrenic, then my "Angels within" make me look that way too to some, but it really doesn't matter. For anybody who happens by chance to be mentally ill, I would say that it is always a good idea for one to stay on one's medicine, and that mental illness is itself not a myth. I think that freedom of expression is important in music and in life, so I am open to exploring more ways to describe and re-describe such experience by having that freedom while not feeling harassed when talking with others. - Billy


----------



## Samuel Kristopher

"Angel" is a pretty fancy name for a synthesiser FX switch. With the right settings you could just lie a brick on your synthesiser and get something like Ode to Robert Frost. But hey, if you want to express yourself through complete lack of harmony, rhythm, or structure, that's not my business. I just don't see what the difference is between Ode to Robert Frost and banging two rubbish bin lids together for 2 hours and telling everyone that I'm channeling God's music. Can't really expect anyone to take it seriously at all, much less value or appreciate it.


----------



## Billy

Samuel Kristopher said:


> "Angel" is a pretty fancy name for a synthesiser FX switch. With the right settings you could just lie a brick on your synthesiser and get something like Ode to Robert Frost. But hey, if you want to express yourself through complete lack of harmony, rhythm, or structure, that's not my business. I just don't see what the difference is between Ode to Robert Frost and banging two rubbish bin lids together for 2 hours and telling everyone that I'm channeling God's music. Can't really expect anyone to take it seriously at all, much less value or appreciate it.


Like I said before with the Robert Frost Ode, that was more of an experiment, and that I mostly do this kind of music which I made the other day ago:






I also would never say I represent "God's music," whatever that may be.


----------



## Sloe

JamieHoldham said:


> After reading the description of the above mentioned video, all I will say is I am concerned about Billy's mental health.. not to be rude, but 1150 videos of hours upon hours individually of random noise, effects and instruments banging each other like a circus. And you say you married Angels and you have Angel children?
> 
> Seriously, you should consider help, not to be rude again, may be it's something to do with your religous beliefs, religon has that kind of power over people.


He is just having fun with his synthesizer he is not harming anyone.


----------



## JamieHoldham

Sloe said:


> He is just having fun with his synthesizer he is not harming anyone.


Just because your not harming someone doesn't mean you don't have a mental illness.


----------



## Billy

Jamie, do you think I have schizophrenia?


----------



## JamieHoldham

Billy said:


> Jamie, do you think I have schizophrenia?


I am not a Doctor and I don't want to attempt to diagnose anything which I don't know about. It's just a genuine concern based on your comments about the angels and things which a normal person doesn't talk about. Ignoring religious zealots which I don't think you are


----------



## Billy

There is a private email box for that.


----------



## JamieHoldham

Should have said prior, but I think I have said all that needs to be here. Good night


----------



## David OByrne

This thread is unbelievable, this has really shown me a side of TC I regret seeing. A guy puts more time into creating music than most people spend sleeping, completely inspired individual and you react with a complete bitter contempt for 16 pages, Jesus. You guys are idiots and complete lowlifes, you're allowed opinions but this is unacceptable. I'm not happy with this forum right now


----------



## JamieHoldham

David OByrne said:


> This thread is unbelievable, this has really shown me a side of TC I regret seeing. A guy puts more time into creating music than most people spend sleeping, completely inspired individual and you react with a complete bitter contempt for 16 pages, Jesus. You guys are idiots and complete lowlifes, you're allowed opinions but this is unacceptable. I'm not happy with this forum right now


The "bitter contempt" as you call it has been nothing more than genuine and well deserved criticisms of "music" I dare call it that has no form, texture, melody, motifs, harmony, rhythm, counterpoint or any music theory applied to it whatsoever, and all these helpful posts have seemingly been completley ignored. Opinions as you said are all they are, doesn't make people a lowlife because they think differently from you.


----------



## Pugg

JamieHoldham said:


> The "bitter contempt" as you call it has been nothing more than genuine and well deserved criticisms of "music" I dare call it that has no form, texture, melody, motifs, harmony, rhythm, counterpoint or any music theory applied to it whatsoever, and all these helpful posts have seemingly been completley ignored. Opinions as you said are all they are, doesn't make people a lowlife because they think differently from you.


Personally , I would report such a vile attack Jamie, you've got my support.


----------



## JamieHoldham

Pugg said:


> Personally , I would report such a vile attack Jamie, you've got my support.


Thanks and don't worry, I would rather be a lowlife if that means I can atleast distingiush good music from 2+ hours of rambling nonsense


----------



## David OByrne

This thread is not about JamieHoldham, this thread is not about Pugg, this thread is not about David OByrne, it is about Billy MC Bride, stop trying to make it about yourselves.

Throughout this thread multiple members including yourself have consistently mocked and belittled Billy and his music, I find that offensive. You're allowed as I said, not to like his music but this goes over the line. The amount of hostility I have seen towards him, really riles me up.
Have respect for christs sake


----------



## Pugg

And yet you made it personal about a member being on this site all night, what's that got to do with you?


----------



## JamieHoldham

David OByrne said:


> This thread is not about JamieHoldham, this thread is not about Pugg, this thread is not about David OByrne, it is about Billy MC Bride, stop trying to make it about yourselves.
> 
> Throughout this thread multiple members including yourself have consistently mocked and belittled Billy and his music, I find that offensive. You're allowed as I said, not to like his music but this goes over the line. The amount of hostility I have seen towards him, really riles me up.
> Have respect for christs sake


1. Your right it's Billys thread.
2. No one is belittling Billy, sure the quality of his "music" is being called into question and rightfully so, it's nonsense and to call it music brings complete shame to real composers who actually put time and effort in, 1000s of hours studying, being a composer myself I can understand better than maybe you.
So you have nothing to be offended by, there is no hostility here, and ironically tell me to give Billy respect when he doesn't even have the decency to respond to his criticisms.


----------



## dzc4627

A friend and I have, after deep excavation and spelunking into the caverns of his Youtube channel, found that Billy McBride is thoroughly insane, yet well learned. Perhaps if he spent the time he does on one hundred things on just one, well, he might just have something.

Find my sentiments harsh?






I rest my case.


----------



## Billy

dzc4627 said:


> A friend and I have, after deep excavation and spelunking into the caverns of his Youtube channel, found that Billy McBride is thoroughly insane, yet well learned. Perhaps if he spent the time he does on one hundred things on just one, well, he might just have something.
> 
> Find my sentiments harsh?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I rest my case.


Thanks, dzc4627, I love that composition.


----------



## Billy

Here is a better version of it:


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Billy said:


> Here is a better version of it:


Billy, your my Hero Keep doing it


----------



## JamieHoldham

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Billy, your my Hero Keep doing it


Agreed, this is great entertainment for a circus


----------



## Pugg

JamieHoldham said:


> Agreed, this is great entertainment for a circus


And I agree with you!


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Pugg said:


> And I agree with you!


and its good night from him


----------



## Samuel Kristopher

Either insane, or perhaps one of the greatest satirists of postmodernism I've seen to date. Either way, he is beautifully committed to the lifestyle, and that's something to be thought about.


----------



## Lenny

I find some his pop music actually pretty interesting. Wild, 20 minutes semi-improvised, but they contain some pretty solid ideas for pop/rock music. With a little bit of imagination, one could easily detach some of the ideas, and there you have it, 80's stadium rock like ASIA or whatever.

And to be totally honest, I think Billy's pop/rock music is much more interesting than highly produced top list popular music.

That being said... This is a CM forum, and there are people who work hard to make it "right". I understand a little bit of irritation sometimes.


----------



## Sloe

Lenny said:


> I find some his pop music actually pretty interesting. Wild, 20 minutes semi-improvised, but they contain some pretty solid ideas for pop/rock music. With a little bit of imagination, one could easily detach some of the ideas, and there you have it, 80's stadium rock like ASIA or whatever.
> 
> And to be totally honest, I think Billy's pop/rock music is much more interesting than highly produced top list popular music.
> 
> That being said... This is a CM forum, and there are people who work hard to make it "right". I understand a little bit of irritation sometimes.


Yes his music would be lite likeable if he cut down his works to 1/10.


----------



## Billy

Thank you, Lenny. The majority of my music is a sort of idiosyncratic rock, and I like now and then crossing over into other musical realms. Happy Holidays.


----------



## spidersrepublic

Billy said:


> The only studying I ever did for music was just to listen to and love the classics, I never contemplate them, but instead act with them in my consciousness.


This can only get you so far. You need to look closely at the scores of the composers whose symphonies you love. See what about their symphonies makes them so effective.

There seems to be one main thing you are missing from your symphonies: *Gesture.* From the few I listened to there is never any stand out gestures - melodies or ideas that stand on their own as a motif. For example, start of Beethoven 5 - we have this fantastic, succinct gesture that generates all the material for the symphony.
Without gesture your piece will have no impact. People want something to hold on to, something memorable. Its fine for film music to have no gesture as it's often background and not made to 'interfere' with the film, but for a symphony, where the music is the prime focus of the audience, you need something that really grabs them by the balls, or at least takes them somewhere effectively.

*I would recommend reading Schoenberg's "Fundamentals of Musical Composition" * This will give you some great ideas on how to construct a theme (you can still use your improvisation to generate the ideas for this) and how to work with it.

Improvisation is a good way to generate ideas, but it will not give you a final product. You should focus on improvising one good melody for a start. Once you have a good melody or a strong idea (could be a chord progression or a rhythmic figure or something polyphonic such as the start of the second movement of Mahlers' 5th symphony) then you can start thinking about how to make that idea into a larger scale work.



Billy said:


> Maybe, I will reach 100 symphonies one day.


I would focus on writing one *really good* symphony rather than writing a great quantity. There's a reason many composers don't write more than 20 symphonies (Mozart and Haydn not included) - its because writing one symphony takes a *lot* of work, it can take years to write one really good symphony.

If there's one thing you should take away from this thread is you need to *slow down.* Its good you have a lot of ideas, but you need to carefully construct one really good, really effective idea before making it into a piece. You can have more than one idea, 2 or 3 or perhaps more in a piece, but generally you want a limited number of *really good* ideas. These ideas can be linked together with transitional material (which you seem to be very good at writing - your symphonies seem to be completely comprised of transitional material, but it is neither leading to nor going from a strong idea or gesture).

So try this: work really hard on one melody, with a chord progression under it. Make one that is really really good and effective. Try using some applied chords or some unusual scales or modulations, something that really stands out to a listener.
Once you have a great idea and have honed it into something very effective, then you can use this as the basis for a piece and expand upon it.

To go back to Beethoven's 5th symphony, he uses the very first gesture over and over again, but keeping it interesting and having it interlock with itself. This idea is known as *economy of material* and is what all the great composers do: they take a single idea and allow it to breathe and create a life of its own throughout a piece.

Hope that helps.

Here is the example of I mentioned from Mahler's 5th symphony, note the impact it has, full of emotion and chaos, unforgettable: (skip to 14:32 if this video doesn't take you there automatically)


----------



## Billy

Thank you, spidersrepublic for your good comments. I decided to have a listen to one of my symphonies, this one 



, which is technically my 39th, chosen randomly, and after listening to it and thinking of your comments, I wonder what if anything could be a good defence for this type of music which is so freeformed that from start to finish it flows without repeating its melodies a second time? I did so many like this, following my interests at the time, and find enjoyment listening to them, but surely there is a counterargument to the idea that such music needs from it what you ask. Also, I am grateful for the literature and Mahler' s music.


----------



## Billy

My reason for making non-repetitive music both in rock and in classical has been always for the very personal need not to hear in music melodies repeat themselves. Making music works as a cure to fight against the over-predictable elements in much music which used to play in my ears all day in a bothersome way. I figured that if I could have some control over music by making my own with which I don't have trouble, I could use it as a therapy and enjoy the creative aspect of it too.


----------



## spidersrepublic

Billy said:


> I wonder what if anything could be a good defence for this type of music which is so freeformed that from start to finish it flows without repeating its melodies a second time?


Perhaps Strauss' 4 last songs or any of Schoenberg's music? They are often "through-composed" as it is called, with very little repetition.




Even though the melodies do not repeat very much, there are still gestures that stand out and force the listener to pay attention.

(Starts at 1:20)




Schoenberg once again, although through composed, is made up of very memorable fragments that stand alone as interesting 'nuggets' of music. There is also an underlying 'coherence' that Schoenberg has that somehow makes everything stick together, I'm not sure if this is just using the same 12-tone row throughout a piece or what, but there is still a cohesive element in each of these sections.


----------



## Billy

Thank you again, spidersrepublic for the Strauss and Schoenberg pieces for my study. What you call "gesturing" perhaps is a matter of degree. I still am attempting something different than what these composers are doing, even though I love them both, and their lovability is deserved. Still, I shall give them more thought. In life, as a reader and thinker when outside music, I strive for coherence as much as I can, as I am interested much in American pragmatism. I trust and follow my own methods and interests, which sometimes include traditional sources. But I do not like to mimic or imitate, there are other ways for me to learn. As I was listening to the Strauss piece, if I may, I thought of this different rock piece I made as a transition between your idea of gesturing and memorability. 



. With Schoenberg, I thought of an earlier piece of his, his Gurrelieder (sp.?), and how that music also is not as over-predictable. David Diamond also comes to my mind. As a side note, the songs you shared by Strauss, I thought were strong and passionate but I would say what he does with his transitions is something which I myself would do differently, using a different sort of tone scaling, but I would not have him change. Thanks again.


----------



## Billy

Spidersrepublic, my first symphony too differs greatly from the ones which followed it. It was not as heavily transition-themed but has I think more of what you mean by gesturing, especially in the third movement. This is the entire 1st symphony of mine: 



. Thanks again for your comments.


----------



## Phil loves classical

Billy said:


> Spidersrepublic, my first symphony too differs greatly from the ones which followed it. It was not as heavily transition-themed but has I think more of what you mean by gesturing, especially in the third movement. This is the entire 1st symphony of mine:
> 
> 
> 
> . Thanks again for your comments.


Sounds like Latin dance music at the beginning? There is no problem including stuff like that in a symphony. Berstein did it with Symphony of Psalms or something. It sounded weird with a drum beat in the middle parts, where the strings were less rhythmic.


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## spidersrepublic

Yes your first symphony has a very strong gesture at the start - nicely done! I can remember it and it stands out.
I feel like this motif is immediately discarded for a much weaker chord progression section - it would be nice to hear that motif repeated in the woodwinds over the top of the chugging strings from 0:28 onwards. Repeating the motif and having it in stretto with itself or at different pitches would help keep the coherence of the piece up. Taking the opening motif and altering it or making it into a lyrical melody or somesuch is another way to extend the material.


----------



## Billy

Thanks, spidersrepublic. In the third movement is the energy which I think balances the rest of the piece in a coherent way, unless we are talking about two different types of coherence. The term through-composed for it seems good because I think of that third part as a sort of parade within the whole pagent which follows through with what earlier is promised, so to speak. I am not very quick at changing my pieces without giving thought as to why they need to be revised, or made into new pieces by a kind of recycling process, however I know this first symphony well and love it, especially that third movement.


----------



## Billy

I just want to post a note to say that the recording I posted above of my First Symphony was not the best for its Third Movement, which is better here for any listeners. 




Happy Holidays.


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## Zeus

Honestly, I listened to your first work on this thread and the last.one... and I feel sad for you. I started composing 3 years ago and I didn’t even know where to begin. 3 years of study later I compose works which are actually bearable to listen, and some conductors are crazy enough to want to premiere them!

I wonder, if in these 5 years, ifyou had studied, what you would be doing now. Why do you reject to study? You are making your music available only to you. Isn’t that selfish according to your principles?

What music do you listen to? Just curiosity


----------



## Billy

Thanks Zeus for your comment. Honestly, I don't have anything against music theory other than it is not where my interests lie as a composer. I play by ear, so perhaps if I get interested in following some path towards studying music (in addition to my intense study of literature), I can add that to my tool-box. But, I am happy to learn just by listening. I don't think that it is any principle which I am holding, but if you mean getting my work performed, I don't know that other than on YouTube my music has any other audience, but I have never tried to go anywhere elsewhere with it, like you. I am happy that you are successful in your own composing and views, but we are different people and composers. What works for one person's happiness may not work for another's. 

As to the music I listen, I find good music wherever I can, but mostly I listen to my own since that is how I learn to invent new melodies for the next piece and so on. I don't know what the future holds for my my own music, but who wants to be remembered? I don't want to be remembered. Perhaps if some find love in it or for me after I am gone, then that is good.


----------



## Phil loves classical

^^ I’m of the opinion that everything in music that can be done has already been. It is more in the way the music is presented now. No one is going to remember a composer who imitated any style or period of music, with or without music theory, and there is no where else for it to go to be truly original, except in presentation. So just write whatever strikes you if you are not getting paid to do it. Or else one could become a local hero if they are successful in catering to others’ expectations.


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## Billy

It is probably like colors. There are a limited amount from which to choose, but there is always something new to paint depending on how close or far away the painter looks at her subject matter.


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## Capeditiea

I have one question. 
Since the composing of the million symphonies of various styles. Have you gone back and had a "Billy Symphony Marathon Extrardinaire"?


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## Billy

No, I need another million to do that.


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## Capeditiea

After much thought on how to reply... i could not come up with anything other than another question... 

What are your works up to now? (judging by my personal experience compared to yours... i am guessing about 800 or so... which would be less than mine... though i have deleted over 700 of mine. but i am sure some of my long time fans, followers, worshipers... have copies just laying around chilling in their computer completely forgotten and never listened to... then there is the one guy, who happened to build a shrine for me... turns out, i devoted a few songs to them... lol which i am sure they are secretly admiring me in a really strange fashion...) but enough about me... this is your post... 

beyond the instant rambling i have done, another question popped into my mind... How much other music have you listened to? (in various genres) 
Who inspires you? (also in various genres.) 

this way i can have a more decerning outlook when i do listen to your how ever many symphonies of how ever many different religions or beliefs they are...


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## E Cristobal Poveda

This is insulting to composers who work tirelessly to produce actual symphonies rooted in some sort of theory and method.


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## Billy

Why do you say that? I don't think we have any obligation to use theory.


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## E Cristobal Poveda

Billy said:


> Why do you say that? I don't think we have any obligation to use theory.


If you have the gall to claim your hours of seething garbage symphonies, yes billy, yes you indeed ARE obligated to use theory. I wouldn't be nearly as perturbed had you chosen to call it a symphonic suite or something along the lines, but calling these collection of audio frequencies "symphonies" is a disservice to composers of the form.


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## Billy

I bet however you would find some sort of theory in this piece I made tonight:


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## E Cristobal Poveda

Billy said:


> I bet however you would find some sort of theory in this piece I made tonight:


Actually, replace the synthesizer with electric guitar, and this sounds like something I'd listen to when I'm in an art-rock mood.


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## Billy

Geez, Don Quixote was not more upset that Sancho Panza used words incorrectly. The method is that the two of them got along.


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## Phil loves classical

Call it a postmodern tone poem instead of a symphony


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Has Billy passed Bach in number of works?


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

I'll call this the Bach number  what happens when you pass this physical limit .....


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## Capeditiea

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> I'll call this the Bach number  what happens when you pass this physical limit .....


;D i can tell you. ;D

you instantly go crazy. then you feel everything ever created was created by you. :O


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## Captainnumber36

Billy is the man! Don't care what ppl say and loves his art and leaves it to be enjoyed by those who like it! Good for you man.


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## Capeditiea

Captainnumber36 said:


> Billy is the man! Don't care what ppl say and loves his art and leaves it to be enjoyed by those who like it! Good for you man.


i have yet to listen to any... for various reasons... though i do plan on listening to them all at some point...


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## E Cristobal Poveda

Captainnumber36 said:


> Billy is the man! Don't care what ppl say and loves his art and leaves it to be enjoyed by those who like it! Good for you man.


You must not want him to ever get better.


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## Sekhar

Actually, composing is quite easy: just have your cat run across the piano to get an instant atonal postmodern melody. Let your second cat run simultaneously, and you have counterpoint. And be sure to ignore all those pesky theory-pushers who claim the piece sounds like garbage: they're just being jealous of the new avant-garde genius who bypassed all those years of hard work they went through. Whether you can get anyone to listen beyond 30 seconds is another matter though, but hey it's your music - who cares what people think?


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## Captainnumber36

E Cristobal Poveda said:


> You must not want him to ever get better.


He clearly doesn't want advice. So let him be how he is!


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## Capeditiea

Captainnumber36 said:


> He clearly doesn't want advice. So let him be how he is!


EXACTLY! some of us are inclined for skills... others for sound... and others for personal enjoyment....

Also, it is just as rare to find a qualified teacher for someone who doesn't want advice.

I am just waiting for Billy to give me a start on which ones i shall listen to... i mean i could consider his works like long ongoing anime, like One Piece or Doraemon, or long based shows like the Simpsons or Family Guy. Where it isn't important to start from the beginning but it makes more sense if you do.

I think his focus is to officially have others help publicize his works for a list of reasons, which are unclear even to him... but about as varied as if you mention it, he could rebbuttle it.  i shall probably listen to his most recent in the next week, unless he has completed another by then.

There are far too many inflicted with the curse of greyface in classical music. Music has always had it's satire.

Billy, has changed history. I suppose he has already the most symphonies ever created by one person. (and they are all pretty much in score form... (yet the chance of them getting played again by a live band wouldn't be until long after his death. going by comparisons of Bach.)

To top this all off he can take critisism.  and turn it into a joke. which i can give him props for. *nods


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Sekhar said:


> Actually, composing is quite easy: just have your cat run across the piano to get an instant atonal postmodern melody. Let your second cat run simultaneously, and you have counterpoint. And be sure to ignore all those pesky theory-pushers who claim the piece sounds like garbage: they're just being jealous of the new avant-garde genius who bypassed all those years of hard work they went through. Whether you can get anyone to listen beyond 30 seconds is another matter though, but hey it's your music - who cares what people think?


But my cat is Tonal, do I need to train him to be atonal?


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## Phil loves classical

Captainnumber36 said:


> He clearly doesn't want advice. So let him be how he is!


I think by calling his work a symphony, then Billy is asking for it to be heard that way, whether or not he is aware. Like wearing a thong in public, you're asking for attention to your butt cheeks.


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## Capeditiea

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> But my cat is Tonal, do I need to train him to be atonal?


Shoenburg .


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Capeditiea said:


> Shoenburg .


So, what your saying is if I put some sort of shoes on my cat, his piano playing ability will improve?


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## Capeditiea

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> So, what your saying is if I put some sort of shoes on my cat, his piano playing ability will improve?


Yes, how else are you supposed to play? :O


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## Phil loves classical

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> But my cat is Tonal, do I need to train him to be atonal?


You have a rare cat. They are usually catcophonous


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Phil loves classical said:


> You have a rare cat. They are usually catcophonous


Yes, I had to teach him to be less Dogmatic


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## Capeditiea

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Yes, I had to teach him to be less Dogmatic


:3 Catma. Is the best way to go.


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## Gordontrek

Captainnumber36 said:


> Billy is the man! Don't care what ppl say and loves his art and leaves it to be enjoyed by those who like it! Good for you man.


I swear he created an alternate account and wrote this stuff


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## E Cristobal Poveda

Gordontrek said:


> I swear he created an alternate account and wrote this stuff


Nah, Captainnumber is an entirely different vehement deposer of music theory.


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## Captainnumber36

E Cristobal Poveda said:


> Nah, Captainnumber is an entirely different vehement deposer of music theory.


I'm not against theory, it just hasn't been my process thus far in my composing 'career'. I've actually been considering picking up a book on music theory or at the very least, doing some research online.


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## Captainnumber36

I wouldn't write complete nonsense as I find Billy's work to be, even though I support his desire to create it.


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## Captainnumber36

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Has Billy passed Bach in number of works?


I think I just realized you got your username from a Zappa song. Is that accurate?


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Captainnumber36 said:


> I think I just realized you got your username from a Zappa song. Is that accurate?


Yeah, you picked it Eddie, Are You Kidding?? written by Zappa, Flo & Eddie (Mark Volman Howard Kaylan) &John Seiter


----------



## St Matthew

Captainnumber36 said:


> *I think I just realized* you got your username from a Zappa song. Is that accurate?


Only just now?


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## Captainnumber36

St Matthew said:


> Only just now?


:lol: hahaha. Yeah, there is so much Zappa, and I haven't given him enough of my listening time yet. I need guidance.


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## nikola

E Cristobal Poveda said:


> This is insulting to composers who work tirelessly to produce actual symphonies rooted in some sort of theory and method.


Wow, what a pretentious thing to say. Do you really think that your work is better than Billy's? Actually, from what I heard so far, some of his musical ideas are much more cohesive and meaningful than your symphonies. He also posted one interesting piano improvisation here if I remember correctly.


----------



## E Cristobal Poveda

nikola said:


> Wow, what a pretentious thing to say. Do you really think that your work is better than Billy's? Actually, from what I heard so far, some of his musical ideas are much more cohesive and meaningful than your symphonies. He also posted one interesting piano improvisation here if I remember correctly.


Wow, what an immature thing to say. Do you really think that Billy's work is better than mine? Actually, from what I heard so far, my musical ideas are much more emotional and inspired than his symphonies. I also posted an interesting piano improvisation here, if I remember correctly.


----------



## nikola

E Cristobal Poveda said:


> Wow, what an immature thing to say. Do you really think that Billy's work is better than mine? Actually, from what I heard so far, my musical ideas are much more emotional and inspired than his symphonies. I also posted an interesting piano improvisation here, if I remember correctly.


Keep telling yourself that. 
Beside that your comment was really one of the most snobbish things I ever read.


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## E Cristobal Poveda

nikola said:


> Keep telling yourself that.
> Beside that your comment was really one of the most snobbish things I ever read.


---------------->>>>>(the joke)
(your head)


----------



## Capeditiea

If we're having a contest on who is most immature...  i nominate my self as being the most immature.


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## nikola

Capeditiea said:


> If we're having a contest on who is most immature...  i nominate my self as being the most immature.


You must prove it


----------



## Billy

Same stuff, a classical improvisation, which I still call "Symphony 74" but it is not a symphony, or a usual one. I believe in improvisation, and will stick up for it. I do not have any hopes of my classical music being heard or performed, but thought that since I do this sort of thing, that I will share it nevertheless. Hope all are well.






Yours, Billy


----------



## Billy

I want to compose an opera.


----------



## pianozach

Renaissance said:


> Well, even in this case is very important to know some theory. Golden ration applied to what ? It is still necessary to have a basic knowledge of intervals, frequency of different musical notes, and so on. It is fun to do experiments in music, I myself do such 5-10 minute experiments but that is just for the sake of fun. For example, take the piece below, that I wrote in 5 minute. See that, Billy ? I can make "music" as fast as you do.


Astonishing. In the context of a two minute piece, almost anything is fine.

I think Billy's largest challenge is that he doesn't actually *understand the concept of a "symphony"*. These pieces that he calls symphonies are not symphonies. They are sets of ambient keyboard improvisations, seemingly without any knowledge of music theory, harmony, melody, rhythmic texture . . . just sitting down at the keyboard and making patterns.

Not that there's anything inherently _*wrong*_ with that; it's just not a _*symphony*_ simply because it's long and has 'movements'.

Some of what I've heard is similar to slices of film soundtracks I've heard . . . but just slices. Film composers can do this sort of thing for effect, but have other tools in their suitcases when needed . . .. which would be always.

Billy is making sound collages, perhaps sound murals.

Oh, I did get through 2 minutes of the "song" about being a black woman in heaven. Not a singer. Probably not interested in any training for that either.


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## TalkingPie

I don't know when the Dunning-Kruger effect ends and the full-blown mental illness begins in this thread.


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## pianozach

TalkingPie said:


> I don't know when the Dunning-Kruger effect ends and the full-blown mental illness begins in this thread.


Quite.

After I posted my comment above, I almost immediately thought "Dunning-Kruger".


----------



## pianozach

Words of Wisdom

You are as interesting as you are _*interested*_.


----------



## kfriegedank

Billy said:


> I want to compose an opera.


Hi Billy, I am your biggest fan. I noticed you haven't posted in over 2 years !!
Have you composed your Classical Gnostic Gnostic Symphony No.889 yet?


----------



## Piers Hudson

I've just been reading this thread over the last few days... Wow, what an absolute rollercoaster ride!

In a peculiar way, I have found a great deal of inspiration from Billy's inner musical world. In particular, it has made me wonder whether unbridled spontaneity is really desirable. It makes me think of the famous sentiment expressed by Oscar Wilde and later by George Bernard Shaw:

*There are only two tragedies in life: one is to not get what one wants, and the other is getting it.*


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## pianozach

Billy said:


> Thanks Zeus for your comment. *Honestly, I don't have anything against music theory other than it is not where my interests lie as a composer. * I play by ear, so perhaps if I get interested in following some path towards studying music (in addition to my intense study of literature), I can add that to my tool-box. But, I am happy to learn just by listening. I don't think that it is any principle which I am holding, but if you mean getting my work performed, I don't know that other than on YouTube my music has any other audience, but I have never tried to go anywhere elsewhere with it, like you. I am happy that you are successful in your own composing and views, but we are different people and composers. What works for one person's happiness may not work for another's.
> 
> As to the music I listen, I find good music wherever I can, but mostly I listen to my own since that is how I learn to invent new melodies for the next piece and so on. I don't know what the future holds for my my own music, but who wants to be remembered? I don't want to be remembered. Perhaps if some find love in it or for me after I am gone, then that is good.


I've been re-reading this thread, as I find it highly entertaining.

270 comments in, I find that this is where one of the major hurdles lies in having your music respected and admired by others: You don't understand that having an understanding of music theory IS part of what makes a composer a composer. Even if you choose to reject standard and accepted music theory, you have to understand it in order to know what it is you are rejecting.

Without music theory (ANY theory at ALL) there is no composing.

Someone further back in the thread pointed out an analogy of taping a couple of cardboard boxes together and calling it architecture. I'd take that a step further by having someone claim to be an architect while admitting that math is not where their interests lie. "I've seen plenty of buildings, so I can do that."

Or an artist that has no interest in color, or perspective.

"I've seen videos of NASCAR, so I can do that."

*Truth*: Further back in the thread you mentioned a disdain for "truth".

*Repetition*: The most sense I've seen you make is that you "write" the way you do, without development of subjects or motifs, because repetition bores you. I find a lot of modern music repetitive, and not enjoyable for that very reason. I don't DISLIKE repetition, it can be quite effective. I just find it ironic that while you avoid repetition in a motivic sense, you embrace it wholesale through the use of sounds and rhythms.

This is why so many musicians here on this forum have suggested some study of music. Frankly, I don't really understand how you can be so interested in composing, yet so resistant to learning as much as you can about composing.

If someone wants to be taken seriously at art, be it painting, ballet, music, sculpting, I would be surprised if they didn't have any interest in how these things are constructed. A carpenter doesn't simply find some wood, nails, and a hammer and start building cabinets . . . they LEARN about the many ways cabinets can be made, the materials, the tools, the artistry, power tool safety.

Just one other thing . . . . your comment above, _"As to the music I listen, I find good music wherever I can, but *mostly I listen to my own* since that is how I learn to invent new melodies for the next piece and so on."_ This is commonly referred to as an ECHO CHAMBER - a situation in which beliefs are amplified or reinforced by communication and repetition inside a closed system and insulated from rebuttal. It happens in politics, and interbreading. The lack of external input creates a situation in which your views are simply self-reinforced, and you become suspicious and distrustful of everybody on "the outside".

In a way, an Echo Chamber is a lot like a Cult. Echo chambers isolate their members, not by cutting off their lines of communication to the world, but by changing whom they trust.


----------



## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

Not gonna lie, I prefer listening to "Billy's" music to that of many established composers.



> Without music theory (ANY theory at ALL) there is no composing.


Not exactly sure what this means. Music "theory" is canonical, not objective. If Billy wants to be an outsider and do his own thing, all the better. The world can use more of that.


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## Phil loves classical

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Not gonna lie, I prefer listening to "Billy's" music to that of many established composers.
> 
> Not exactly sure what this means. *Music "theory" is canonical, not objective. *If Billy wants to be an outsider and do his own thing, all the better. The world can use more of that.


That's an interesting idea. I think music theory (or theories) is very analogous to calculus in math, both based on application of established (or even presumed) principles. If Billy wanted to make up his own theory that's great. But it sounds to many that there is no consistency or organizing principle.


----------



## nikola

Pianozach... there are many great self-taught musicians who can't even read notation. 
You are also having a conversation with someone who obviously isn't on this forum anymore.


----------



## pianozach

nikola said:


> Pianozach... there are many great self-taught musicians who can't even read notation.


Never said there weren't. Being able to actually read music is a great asset as a musician though.



nikola said:


> You are also having a conversation with someone who obviously isn't on this forum anymore.


Yes, Billy's last post was two years ago. He must have gotten weary of all of us, on the whole, not fully embracing his new symphony every day.


----------



## Billy

Whenever I would post music, I would think of the future of it. Any piece that one makes, it can be set in a way that fills in more of the colors of its sketch. So with every piece I posted, I thought, it can be a symphony, if the sketch was filled out to its best potential at some later point in the future. That is what I understood by calling them symphonies, that they can all be filled out into a symphony in some way or another. 

As far as the improvisation of them is concerned, that's what I do, so I decided to make it into a practice of "just improvising" in these symphony-sketches. There is a reason for it. You can build up a piece just by improvising, so that is what I set out to do, and if it can be filled out with even more colors, then that might be just what they are for.


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## Billy

Hi all, 

I just wanted to share an older symphony I made a shared here before in order to give it a new rebirth. I believe it is my 13th Symphony. I ended up taking off all of the titles, but today I listened to it with pleasure, so I am sharing it again for fun. 






Have a great day!

Billy


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## Billy

Hi again,

Here is another symphony earlier that that, my 2nd. 






And, more of what I currently work on musically.






Thanks for listening,

Billy


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