# Epical symphonies



## jenn79

Looking for something epic type of symphonies, big orchestration and beautiful melodies and maybe something really sad stuff aswell - but i don't like atonal pieces. I'm a newbie with classical music, so i apologize for my stupid questions...  

sincerely yours,

jenn


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## Frasier

There must be quite a lot - Mahler - anything but the 4th is big - and the 10th was a mess-up concocted by Deryck Cooke from unfinished sketches, except the beautiful first movement and the scherzo - so avoid that.

Then there's Tchaikowsky's 5th and 6th - the 5th has a hauntingly beautiful slow movement. The 6th has a mix of movements including an uproarous scherzo that comes off dazzlingly in Karajan's hands on the old EMI recording. If you spot that recording cheap, don't be afraid to buy it - brilliant!

For modern symphonies and big orchestration, try Havergal Brian's Gothic Symphony or Elgar's No.2


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## Keemun

jenn79 said:


> Looking for something epic type of symphonies, big orchestration and beautiful melodies and maybe something really sad stuff aswell - but i don't like atonal pieces.


That is a pretty broad description, but here are some symphonies that might be what you are looking for:

* Beethoven: Symphony 9*
*Mahler: Symphonies 2, 5, 8 and 9* (8 is referred to as "Symphony of a Thousand" but it has vocals throughout, which may not be what you are looking for)
* Tchaikovsky: Symphony 6
Sibelius: Symphony 2* (not so "big", but it has beautiful melodies)
*Bruckner: Symphony 7*


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## Giovannimusica

Hi jenn79,

Rachmaninoff: 2nd and 3rd Symphonies
Bruckner: 4th and 7th Symphonies
Brahms: All of his Symphonies
Richard Strauss: Alpensymphonie
Tchaikovski: 4th and 6th Symphonies
Sibelius: Lemminkainen, 6th and 7th Symphonies, Tempest, Tapiola
Vaughan-Williams: A Sea Symphony
Shostakovich: 11th and 13th Symphonies, Execution of Stepan Razin

Hope this will help you in your quest for epic works.

Regards!

Giovanni


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## Morigan

If she wants something epic, why not the Eroica itself? Symphony no. 3 by no other than Beethoven.

I remember not liking Mahler too much when I was a beginner in classical music... You might want to suggest more easy listening works. I think very good suggestions have been made so far, though.


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## Lisztfreak

Also try:

Bruckner's 8th (huge) and 9th
Sibelius' 1st and Kullervo
Liszt's Faust Symphony
Beethoven's 5th and 7th
Elgar's 1st
Shostakovich's 7th and 8th
Dvořák's 9th
Nielsen's 5th

Enjoy!


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## opus67

Would Berlioz count? I've heard it only a couple of times.
Symphonie Fantastique - written by a mad man, the story behind the work containing beheading and stuff.


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## Lisztfreak

opus67 said:


> Symphonie Fantastique - written by a mad man, the story behind the work containing beheading and stuff.


Yesss, excellent! The most grotesque and diabolical of all the 19th century symphonies!


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## cato

Hi Jenn!

I would have to agree with everything everyone has already listed.  

When I first saw the question, the one symphony that really came to mnd, was Shostakovich's 7th Symphony (The Leningrad).

To me, everything about this symphony is "Epic".  

The history behind it, the passion, the subject matter (WW2, the invasion of Russia by the Nazis, etc.), as well as the actually music, all scream, "EPIC!"


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## Kurkikohtaus

So many lists, so many pieces, so confusing!

Remember, you don't have to listen to all of them at once, take them in a little at a time.

And thank you for sharing your dazzlingly beautiful avatar with us, easily the best avatar at TalkClassical by a country mile.


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## opus67

Kurkikohtaus said:


> And thank you for sharing your dazzlingly beautiful avatar with us, easily the best avatar at TalkClassical by a country mile.


Better than two cranes flirting? I don't think so.


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## cato

Who's avatar are you talking about?

Jenn79's? Or mine?  

If you are talking about Jenn79, then yes, I agree, it's nice to look at a pretty face on this board.  

But I think I have a cool one too.


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## jenn79

Kurkikohtaus said:


> So many lists, so many pieces, so confusing!
> 
> Remember, you don't have to listen to all of them at once, take them in a little at a time.
> 
> And thank you for sharing your dazzlingly beautiful avatar with us, easily the best avatar at TalkClassical by a country mile.


I'm blushed 

thank you Kurkikohtaus, i'm flattered...  
and Cato, your avatar is cooler than mine - don't worry  
And thanks to everybody, you've been so nice and helped me out a lot!
-jenn


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## Josef Haydn

also jenn, you should try out Sains-Saens Organ Symphony. Thats pretty shweet. All of it is rather amazing but if your particularly fond of beatiful, sad melodies, theres a theme in the second half of the first movement about 10 minutes in. Its a rather unusual, not particularly lyrical melody in the strings but it is amazing

but don't fast forward into it! listen to it all, theres so many good bits like the fugue bit in the third movement, that just made me laugh, i was in hysterics.

And please, don't take it for granted as just another piece. My orchestra is playing it at the moment and i can tell you that the bassoon part is certainly rather difficult so try to appreciate the pain of the bassoon section in particular when listening.

Happy times


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## Manuel

Giovannimusica said:


> Rachmaninoff: 2nd and 3rd Symphonies


I take my hat off. You out-speeded me.

I would also suggest the whole sets of symphonies by Lyatoshinsky (was Boris his name?).

Vaughan Williams 7th manages to fit in the definition of *epic * very well. The wind, the vocals and the snow.



Kurkikohtaus said:


> And thank you for sharing your dazzlingly beautiful avatar with us, easily the best avatar at TalkClassical by a country mile.





Cato said:


> If you are talking about Jenn79, then yes, I agree, it's nice to look at a pretty face on this board.


Are you guys flirting?


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## Kurkikohtaus

Manuel said:


> Are you guys flirting?


Yes, unabashedly.


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## Manuel

In your quest for _epic _sound, it's my impression you should explore the russians...

so go and get Sibelius' first. 

In terms of orchestral works, not just symphonies, I would suggest
Rachmaninov: Island of the dead (after Böcklin's work)
Vaughan-Williams: Tallis fantasy

And of course, the most epic of all, depicting a real invasion, a siege, and a victory...

the Leningrad Symphony (which comes to be Shostakovich's seventh)


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## cato

Jenn79,

In case you were wondering..... 

My avatar is of *Split Rock Lighthouse*, which sits 150 feet above *Lake Superior*, and is about an hour's drive north of *Duluth, Minneasota*.

I have been there many times, and I used to live in *Minneapolis, Minneasota*. It is one of the most beautiful places in the U.S., and one of the cleanest: not a speck of trash anywhere to be found in that part of Minneasota. 

If you haven't been there, check it out, you will be glad you did.


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## Saturnus

I'll strengthen the recommendation of Mahler, especially of his ninth symphony. Mahler must be the second most epic composer in history (after Stockhausen, but he is atonal so I can't recommend him).


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## Manuel

Saturnus said:


> I'll strengthen the recommendation of Mahler, especially of his ninth symphony. Mahler must be the second most epic composer in history (after Stockhausen, but he is atonal so I can't recommend him).


Who do you relate Mahler with _epic_? I can use many words to decribe Mahler's output, but _epic _is just not one of them.

Strauss Heldenleben should certainly makes his way to this thread.



cato said:


> Jenn79,
> 
> In case you were wondering.....
> 
> My avatar is of *Split Rock Lighthouse*, which sits 150 feet above *Lake Superior*, and is about an hour's drive north of *Duluth, Minneasota*.
> 
> I have been there many times, and I used to live in *Minneapolis, Minneasota*. It is one of the most beautiful places in the U.S., and one of the cleanest: not a speck of trash anywhere to be found in that part of Minneasota.
> 
> If you haven't been there, check it out, you will be glad you did.


Three supernumerary *A* you have there, chap.


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## Saturnus

By the poster's definition:

_..,big orchestration and beautiful melodies and maybe something really sad stuff aswell - but i don't like atonal pieces._

This fits Mahler, I mentioned Stockhausen because of the gigantic scale he has written in. The reason why I didn't mention R. Strauss is because I haven't heard any of his pieces already recommended here and didn't want to add more (Also Sprach Zarathustra would I also descripe as epic).


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## Kurkikohtaus

Manuel said:


> Why do you relate Mahler with _epic_?


I think it's fair to use that word for Mahler. If you do not agree that the _result_ of his work is epic, than that is OK. But certainly Mahler _attempted_ to write on an epic scale, whether one then hears that in his music or not is a personal thing.

Mahler himself said that "A symphony must be like the world. It must contain everything."

By the way, guess who he said that to?


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## mahlerfan

Yes, most all of Mahler's is good for what you are looking for, except for the fourth. The fourth does not have any colossal climaxes like his others, though I am still very fond of it. Several specific symphonies you should listen to are Mahler 5-Mahler 9, as well as his large scale symphony/song, Das Lied von der Erde (The Song of the Earth). I would also recommend Tchaikovsky's 6th; the first movement is filled with beautiful sweeping string melodies, the second is much like a waltz, but in 5/4 time, the third is like a quick upbeat march or music played at a royal ceremony, and the fourth in haunting and beautiful. Definitely a must-buy. You might also want to check out Stravinsky's The Rite of Spring, which is not really "sad stuff" as you put it, but is extremely epic, tons of brass, percussion, strings, and woodwinds - wait, that's everything.  Holst's The Planets is very good as well, as is Stravinsky's Suite From the Firebird.


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## Manuel

Kurkikohtaus said:


> I think it's fair to use that word for Mahler. If you do not agree that the _result_ of his work is epic, than that is OK. But certainly Mahler _attempted_ to write on an epic scale, whether one then hears that in his music or not is a personal thing.
> 
> Mahler himself said that "_A symphony must be like the world. It must contain everything_."
> 
> By the way, guess who he said that to?


I already knew that. And I'm not against the idea of conceiving his symphonies as epic. My comment was intended to show I've never thought of them in such way.

My idea of epic was, up to the point of this conversation, leading to other paths and composers. Like the heavy russians (in the way of Lyatoshinsky, whom I think I have already mentioned here). But the trascendance of Mahler's symphonies (philosophically: a symphony describing the everything) makes me think of them in a more _divine _approach, less _terrenal_ (earthly??).


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## Kurkikohtaus

mahlerfan said:


> The fourth does not have any colossal climaxes like his others...


The one climax in the 4th that I _would_ put with the others is the climax in the 3rd mvmt (the slow mvmt), with the leap of the 6th in the strings followed by full orchestra playing the trumpet theme from the 1st mvmt in augmentation (i.e. twice as slow).



Manuel said:


> ... the trascendance of Mahler's symphonies (philosophically: a symphony describing the everything) makes me think of them in a more _divine _approach, less _terrenal_ (earthly??).


Maybe *Terrestrial*, *Worldly*, *Mundane*... there is also a word I found at Thesaurus.com = *Terrene*. I've never heard that word before... I love the internet.
____________________________________________________________
Man, what a cheezy, useless post for my 300th...


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## Frasier

Isn't that what you serve soup in.


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## mahlerfan

Ah, yes I forgot about that, *Kurkikohtaus*. Sorry, I haven't listened to that movement on my cd for the past couple months. I found the spot you are talking about, but still, the symphony has far less loud and brassy parts to it than all the others.


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## Edward Elgar

THE British epic symphony has to be the Sea Symphony by Vaughan Williams. It's so long yet all the movements are instantly appealing. 

Also I agree with Josef Haydn that Saint-Saen's Organ Symphony is one of the best out there. The slow movement is so emotionally powerfull and the finale is immense. Saint-Saen puts about 10 codas at the end! What a mad-***!


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## Morigan

Edward Elgar said:


> Also I agree with Josef Haydn that Saint-Saen's Organ Symphony is one of the best out there.


Out of context, that sounds really weird.


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## Manuel

> THE British epic symphony has to be the Sea Symphony by Vaughan Williams.


Really? Even more than the _frosty _seventh?


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## Giovannimusica

Ummmmmmm - Frasier,

That would be soup *tureen*.


Regards!

Giovanni


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## Guest

> Symphonie Fantastique - written by a mad man, the story behind the work containing beheading and stuff.


Opus67. Only problem is that the work is actually behind the story, if "behind" means "precedes"! That is, the work was finished and then the eminently sane Berlioz, realizing his audience expected a programme, and realizing he'd written music that might perplex people who still thought Beethoven really was insane, cobbled up this story to help them get through it. (He did five versions of the story, by the way, and then abandoned it--that is, he said if the symphony were performed without Lelio then don't use the story. And he didn't do any more elaborate programmes like this ever again, either, even though audiences still expected them.)


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## Chi_townPhilly

May I play (I'm referring, of course, to the dangling unanswered question by Maestro K concerning the audience for the Mahler "symphony-like-the-world" quote, not the other stuff). I have to add that I can't blame people for having other things on their mind. Ahem... it's my recollection that Mahler directed his remark towards none other that Herr Jean S. himself. Sibelius, as could be expected, expressed a differing viewpoint. Ultimately, their body of work does offer two perhaps equally fascinating but fundamentally different perspectives on what a symphony could be, do they not? Independent of one's feelings on the issue, Mahler seems to have provided the more memorable "sound-bite" quote.


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## Edward Elgar

My last post on this thread may have seemed a bit controversial so please allow me to explain;
I know Josef Haydn personally, and we have had legthy disscussions about the wonder that is the Organ Symphony. I therefore apologise if it sounds as if I am twisting the words of Josef Haydn.
Also, I have not yet been able to find a recording of the 6th symphony yet so I can't give my opinion on it.
I hope this clears things up a bit!


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## jenn79

Wow, glad that there has been much evolving conversation after i posted the thread, that's always a good thing. Thanks guys


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