# Is being gay a choice?



## Cnote11

Discuss!!!


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## Clementine

No. End of discussion.


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## Cnote11

No, Polednice hasn't posted yet.


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## Igneous01

i like men.







or do I?


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## kv466

Oh, goodness, I really don't wanna see where this goes from here so I'll just throw my nickel in quickly. From what I know: No, it is not a choice.

I was thinking more along the lines of _silly_, not ugly. Anyway...


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## Cnote11

I honestly don't think this will get ugly. We're pretty civil around here.


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## Polednice

Of course it's a choice! And did you know that you actually have to have a licence to be gay? Yep! Whenever you come onto a guy, you to have to show him your card. It's really cool though - I got a free rainbow clock when I first signed up.


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## emiellucifuge

I remember when I chose to be straight... I was so young... I dont remember my reasons.
Those were the days... innocent and carefree :angel:


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## violadude

I might be straight today and gay tomorrow! Who knows!


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## Polednice

Being gay is quite easy, though it can be hard to know who else is gay. I've been saving up to buy myself a gaydar; they're really expensive.


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## mmsbls

As emiellucifuge parodied, people who believe that being gay is a choice actually don't believe that it is. As far as I know, none of them actually made _a_ choice themselves. They are straight (assuming they actually are), and they never spent a millisecond deciding to be that way. They are straight _but not by choice_.


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## Cnote11

Well, most of them believe that straight is the original way and that gays choose to be gay and go against the natural order. This is the same way they view people who get sex changes and the like. You can view their opinion on it as someone is born with two ears and decides to cut one off. They didn't choose to be born with two ears, that is just the _way things are_.

Not that I buy that.


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## aleazk




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## Ukko

Cnote11 said:


> Discuss!!!


Being gay isn't. Coming out (usually) is. So is _acting_ 'like a fairy'. There seems to be considerable confusion about these things, not all of it among 'straights'.


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## Polednice

Cnote11 said:


> Well, most of them believe that straight is the original way and that gays choose to be gay and go against the natural order. This is the same way they view people who get sex changes and the like. You can view their opinion on it as someone is born with two ears and decides to cut one off. They didn't choose to be born with two ears, that is just the _way things are_.
> 
> Not that I buy that.


Other people might concede that same-sex attraction is not a choice, or at least hold out on any firm opinions, but state that it is a choice to _act_ on it - the virtuous thing to do would be to live a life of sexual repression and celibacy (or rape little boys).


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## Cnote11

I find that opinion to be sick.


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## Romantic Geek

This seems appropriate:


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## Ukko

Polednice said:


> Other people might concede that same-sex attraction is not a choice, or at least hold out on any firm opinions, but state that it is a choice to _act_ on it - the virtuous thing to do would be to live a life of sexual repression and celibacy (or rape little boys).


Hey, you'd only have to be 'virtuous' for 60 or 70 years... with no little boys. Then the pressures would diminish. A walk in the park, eh?


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## Polednice

I was actually really surprised at their answers [in reply to RG]. I thought people would have some irrational arguments that they'd put forward to say that it's different, but instead they're just stunned at the idea of applying the same question to themselves. Amazing what **** education can do.


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## Cnote11

I found an interesting post on the internet



> Homosexuals are living against nature, I mean as feminine as you like to be, for whatever reason, you will never be a woman. I mean, I guess you don't want to own up to your manly responsibility or you want to be immature and pretend you are someone else, for whatever reason you don't like yourself, it is so unacceptable. If the world was made of homosexuals it wouldn't last very long seeing how it takes a man and woman to reproduce. What your doing is no better than having sex with a farm animal so do any of you homosexuals think it is ok to have sex with an animal? Really? That is against the law as should homosexuality. You need medicine and help to get back on track and be the person you were born to be. Man Up! Stop bashing God he made you perfect, you yourself or someone else messed you up!


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## aleazk

A great part of what we call "sexuality" or "love", etc, are actually social constructions. We push, as a society, to individuals to behave in certain ways to fulfil this construct. I mean, this constant necessity "for cataloging" people is a completely forced thing. If tomorrow I wake up with some homosexual tendencies, that will not drive me into a "crisis of sexual identity", because in that way I would enter the game of "fulfil the construct". I think that if I were married, I would simply cheat my wife with some man in that case :lol:, without thinking too much about being "straight" or not.


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## mmsbls

Cnote11 said:


> I found an interesting post on the internet


Here are some more interesting posts from the internet:

"The facts are simple," says Charles K. Johnson, president of the International Flat Earth Research Society. "The earth is flat." ..."You can't orbit a flat earth," says Mr. Johnson. "The Space Shuttle is a joke-and a very ludicrous joke."..."Nobody knows anything about the true shape of the world," he contends. "The known, inhabited world is flat. Just as a guess, I'd say that the dome of heaven is about 4,000 miles away, and the stars are about as far as San Francisco is from Boston."

Fascinating stuff!


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## Cnote11

I love the Flat Earth Society... my fiancee and I met and bonded over laughing at their forum.


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## Sid James

Well I think it can depend on cultural and environmental factors. Eg. in Thailand, it is (or was?) acceptable for boys to date eachother as a kind of trial to hetero relationships and eventually marriage. The Thais have quite open attitude to sex. So do many Pacific islanders, where they have ladyboys, boys who dress up as girls. They have their own word for that in their native language, someone told me, but I forget. So I would go more for these kinds of socio-environmental-cultural reasons for sexuality, rather than the so-called _gay gene _(along with the spurious _obesity gene_ and all that stuff).

But I'm no expert so this can all be hogwash (disclaimer?).


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## sabrina

I've never ever thought I was choosing something.I started liking boys when I was in kindergarten, but I was really in love much later. Now I love my man, and I would never change that. 
I guess I was born straight, and I was left without a choice.


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## Mesa

I'm a bisexual, and i never chose to fall in love with a boy but i did. I'm very rarely effeminate, i'm just not macho.

I'll defend your right to hold homophobic opinions, but if you call me a ****** i'll probably punch you in the face.


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## Vaneyes

Now that everyone's sorted, the fun can begin.

View attachment 4989


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## Moira

Polednice said:


> Being gay is quite easy, though it can be hard to know who else is gay. I've been saving up to buy myself a gaydar; they're really expensive.


The better models come equipped with gaydar. My gaydar is top of the range. Almost infallible.


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## aleazk

Moira said:


> The better models come equipped with gaydar. My gaydar is top of the range. Almost infallible.


Are you saying that @Polednice is an obsolete model? :lol:

Poled, you should visit this guy!


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## Sid James

Other thing is, just a general thought (esp. on bisexuality), swinger's clubs and swinging was pretty popular back in the 1980's. Experimenting with sexuality was seen as safter before HIV/AIDS. Still goes on though, these clubs still exist, but not as much as then. 

Sexual practices might be more conservative now than a decade or more ago. People take for granted that the virus has decreased and can be treated, but Australian health department predicts it to rise sharply in next few years. It's not fully relevant to this topic. But maybe it is, in the sense that people are less experimental with their sexuality - eg. going into bisexuality - compared to before. In the Western countries, I mean. 

As I said, in parts of Asia & the Pacific, sex is seen very liberally. Where I draw the line is sexual relationships between adults and children, I don't see that as acceptable. It's abuse.


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## Moira

aleazk said:


> Are you saying that @Polednice is an obsolete model? :lol:


Actually my gaydar doesn't work in Europe where everyone looks gay. Except perhaps the leather boys.

Maybe Polednice is a European model?


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## Cnote11

Polednice is a British model.


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## Moira

Cnote11 said:


> Polednice is a British model.


His gaydar should work. Maybe it needs some lubrication? Warm beer?


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## moody

Cnote11 said:


> I found an interesting post on the internet


That isn't interesting--it's ridiculous, gay men are not all trying to be women by any means.
Your question was very naive, don't you know any gay s, you have no choice--apart from pretending to be straight--there is no 'cure' and I would have thought it worth your while to have asked a few questions before blundering ahead.


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## moody

Moira said:


> Actually my gaydar doesn't work in Europe where everyone looks gay. Except perhaps the leather boys.
> 
> Maybe Polednice is a European model?


What does that mean for Heavens sake? I've just been looking in the mirror to see if I look gay, then I thought what sort of look is the gay look, I've known many gays and they all look different---there's even one who looks just like a pig!


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## Moira

moody said:


> That isn't interesting--it's ridiculous, gay men are not all trying to be women by any means.
> Your question was very naive, don't you know any gay s, you have no choice--apart from pretending to be straight--there is no 'cure' and I would have thought it worth your while to have asked a few questions before blundering ahead.


I think that was the point that Cnote11 was making. One of the questions straight people often ask is "Who is the man and who is the woman?" which says a lot about that person's concept of gender stereotyping, but nothing at all about homosexuality where the whole point of the exercise is two people of the same sex.


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## Moira

moody said:


> What does that mean for Heavens sake? I've just been looking in the mirror to see if I look gay, then I thought what sort of look is the gay look, I've known many gays and they all look different---there's even one who looks just like a pig!


lol, moody! Everyone knows what gay people look like! This is a fact of life. Gay people OBVIOUSLY dress better than others. So if you are well dressed you may be, in fact probably are, gay. Gay people like classical music. That's a big giveaway. This is true, but it is even more true (if truth can be relative) if the person likes musical theatre and opera. Gay people can cook well, in fact brilliantly. They like to have elegant dinner parties. With loads of bubbly. These are only a few of millions of tell tale signs, which I don't have time to type out for you.


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## Badinerie

Being Gay is no more a choice than being Hetro. If you are Hetro just think how you feel about the opposite sex and thats how people who are Gay feel about their own sex. Ditto Bi Sexual folks who will tell you that being 'Bi' is the natural order of things. Being in denial is the real problem!



> What does that mean for Heavens sake? I've just been looking in the mirror to see if I look gay, then I thought what sort of look is the gay look, I've known many gays and they all look different---there's even one who looks just like a pig!


If your mirror eight feet square floodlit and framed with Diamonte's ...


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## Polednice

Sid James said:


> Well I think it can depend on cultural and environmental factors. Eg. in Thailand, it is (or was?) acceptable for boys to date eachother as a kind of trial to hetero relationships and eventually marriage. The Thais have quite open attitude to sex. So do many Pacific islanders, where they have ladyboys, boys who dress up as girls. They have their own word for that in their native language, someone told me, but I forget. So I would go more for these kinds of socio-environmental-cultural reasons for sexuality, rather than the so-called _gay gene _(along with the spurious _obesity gene_ and all that stuff).
> 
> But I'm no expert so this can all be hogwash (disclaimer?).


Except for rare genetic disorders and some other things, there isn't really _a_ gene for _anything_. Newspapers talk about it all the time, but there's no gene for sexuality (gay or straight), no gene for obesity, no gene for intelligence , no gene for any complex cultural stuff. What there will be is a genetic _component_, which could be any number of genes that are directly or indirectly related to the phenomenon, which find expression depending on interaction with our environment. While these genes are environment dependent, that does _not_ mean, for example, that you can necessarily change the upbringing of a child to prevent homosexuality. The environmental factors are much more complicated than that, and may well be things over which we have no control (one potential environmental factor could be pre-natal environment - i.e., the hormones we're exposed to in the womb).


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## Lenfer

Hilltroll72 said:


> Being gay isn't. Coming out (usually) is. So is _acting_ 'like a fairy'. There seems to be considerable confusion about these things, not all of it among 'straights'.


I know many a "fairy queen" and not all of them are gay. Some people are just naturally camp and are mistaken for gay *Andrew Lloyd Webber* for example.

*Polednice* you haven't been signed up to this gay thing long then? No one has showed you the secret handshake? I'm not gay but I've seen it on *YouTube*.

I'm assuming that being gay and being a mason is the same thing...

All joking aside I don't think it's a choice it's just something that happens. Being straight or gay isn't all about sex but I'm sure as children the thought of sex or even liking anyone would have been most "gross" as the *Americans* say. There comes a point in one's development that that little light turns on I guess it just depends on what light turns on the straight light or the giant neon rainbow one.

*Cnote* is muscling in on your turf with these threads *Polednice* you know what must be done! :devil:


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## Polednice

For reference, I dress _extremely_ blandly, I like to read lots, I don't like musicals or opera, I'm a terrible cook, and my wrists are as stiff as a board!


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## Guest

Otherwise, everything else is OK then?


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## Guest

I don't think it's a choice anymore than is being "straight." Besides, I think there's far too much emphasis on sexual preference. It's nobody's business, especially the government's, regarding with whom and the manner in which one has sexual relations. Intimacy should/must not be legislated.


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## Lenfer

Polednice said:


> For reference, I dress _extremely_ blandly, I like to read lots, I don't like musicals or opera, I'm a terrible cook, and my wrists are as stiff as a board!


And you don't look like *Andrew Lloyd Webber*, thank goodness! :kiss:


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## Cnote11

moody said:


> That isn't interesting--it's ridiculous, gay men are not all trying to be women by any means.
> Your question was very naive, don't you know any gay s, you have no choice--apart from pretending to be straight--there is no 'cure' and I would have thought it worth your while to have asked a few questions before blundering ahead.


:lol: Dying over here. You act as if I agree with that post. Of course it is an interesting post. How isn't it interesting in its sheer stupidity? Oh moody, moody, moody.

Also, I don't believe gays have a choice. I just wanted to start a thread based on the question. That may come in handy in the future for you, moody.


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## Polednice

Cnote11 said:


> :lol: Dying over here. You act as if I agree with that post. Of course it is an interesting post. How isn't it interesting in its sheer stupidity? Oh moody, moody, moody.
> 
> Also, I don't believe gays have a choice. I just wanted to start a thread based on the question. That may come in handy in the future for you, moody.


I think moody was just being extra defensive because he loves me. That's so sweet, moody!


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## Cnote11

Aw, moody is a silly fellow of the knighthood.


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## mitchflorida

It can be. Sure.


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## moody

Moira said:


> lol, moody! Everyone knows what gay people look like! This is a fact of life. Gay people OBVIOUSLY dress better than others. So if you are well dressed you may be, in fact probably are, gay. Gay people like classical music. That's a big giveaway. This is true, but it is even more true (if truth can be relative) if the person likes musical theatre and opera. Gay people can cook well, in fact brilliantly. They like to have elegant dinner parties. With loads of bubbly. These are only a few of millions of tell tale signs, which I don't have time to type out for you.


Well I never, I suppose I had better become gay--bit late, but better late than never.


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## moody

Cnote11 said:


> :lol: Dying over here. You act as if I agree with that post. Of course it is an interesting post. How isn't it interesting in its sheer stupidity? Oh moody, moody, moody.
> 
> Also, I don't believe gays have a choice. I just wanted to start a thread based on the question. That may come in handy in the future for you, moody.


You see what happens with you, you act like a twit half of the time so it's difficult to know when you are attempting to be serious. So put a little note 'joking' or 'serious' then I'll know.


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## sospiro

Polednice said:


> Of course it's a choice! And did you know that you actually have to have a licence to be gay? Yep! Whenever you come onto a guy, you to have to show him your card. It's really cool though - I got a free rainbow clock when I first signed up.


You are so right Poley. Every morning I think to myself "Who will I fancy today - will it be the cute girl who waits at the bus stop & who always smiles at me or will it be the hunky guy in the next office?" Decisions decisions; choices choices ..


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## mitchflorida

Bi-sexuals are so lucky . .they never have to choose. They have twice the chance of getting a date that way.


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## regressivetransphobe

mitchflorida said:


> Bi-sexuals are so lucky . .they never have to choose. They have twice the chance of getting a date that way.


Yeah, but they also have to learn why both genders are terrible.


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## Mesa

Woody Allen famously said it doubles your chance of a date on a saturday night. He never mentioned it also doubles your disappointment.


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## brianwalker

Is pedophilia a choice?


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## Ukko

brianwalker said:


> Is pedophilia a choice?


Pedophilia is a death sentence.


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## brianwalker

Hilltroll72 said:


> Pedophilia is a death sentence.


Why?

Lots of pedophiles lead normal successful lives and would lead even better lives if the state did away with their bigoted anti-child-sex laws.


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## Cnote11

moody said:


> You see what happens with you, you act like a twit half of the time so it's difficult to know when you are attempting to be serious. So put a little note 'joking' or 'serious' then I'll know.


I'd rather confuse you. It is possible that you've misinterpreted every post I've ever made. For all you know, moody, you may actually love me!


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## Cnote11

What about lesbians though? It has been shown that the female sexuality is much more fluid, compared to the more concrete sexuality of men. What does this mean to you?


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## moody

Cnote11 said:


> I'd rather confuse you. It is possible that you've misinterpreted every post I've ever made. For all you know, moody, you may actually love me!


It's funny that you should say that--------.


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## Polednice

brianwalker said:


> Why?
> 
> Lots of pedophiles lead normal successful lives and would lead even better lives if the state did away with their bigoted anti-child-sex laws.


How well would the children get on if we got away with those laws?


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## Ukko

Cnote11 said:


> What about lesbians though? It has been shown that the female sexuality is much more fluid, compared to the more concrete sexuality of men. What does this mean to you?


I suspect that both male and female sexuality operates on very similar 'sliding scales'. Female 'flexibility' is less inhibited because social pressures are less.


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## Cnote11

That is highly debatable, Hilltroll, but it may well be true.


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## superhorn

If being gay is a "chloice", why do gay people "choose" to be homosexual in a world where so many people
are so hostile to them, including,often, their own parents? 
Do the gay people in Iran "choose" to be gay in a country where they are at risk of being exectued in a barbaric manner if they are discovered ? Come on now. How ridiculous can religious conservatives be when they accuse gay people of "choosing " to be gay ? I didn't "choose" to be heterosexual. That's just the way I am.
And it's even more ridiculous they way people on right-wing websites always assume I'm gay just because I speak out against homophobia, as well as right-wingers I e mail . Does speaking out against anti-semitism
automatically mean you're a Jew ? I'm also a Jew, though non-observant and secular.
I'm also left-handed. Did I "chose" to be a southpaw? Of course not. That's just the way I am .
Throughout history, lefties have often been the victims of discrimination and hostility, too . Left-handed kids have often been forced by teachers to try to write with their right hands, which is extremely difficult .
Have you righties ever tried to write with your left hand ?
In the superstition-ridden Muslim world, left-handed people are believed by many backward Muslims to be cursed by Allah . The Ayatollah Khomeini claimed that the Shah of Iran was cursed because one of his sons was a southpaw. 
Of course, the Bible, that ancient book of myths,legends, fairy tales, allegories, antiquated religious teachings and questionable reteelings of ancient middle eastern history, has been the cause of homophobia among
Christians for so long. The Old Testament was written during the Bronze Age by primitive Semitisc tribesmen who knew absolutely nothing of science and were ruled by blind superstition and ignorance .
Supposedly, the Bible condemns homosexuals and homosexuality. It also calls eating shellfish an abomination, states that any one working on th esabbath should be executed, it's an abomination to wear clothing with two kinds of fabric, and that parents should put their children to death if they are disrespectful and rebellious .
Yet evangelical Christians don't mind dining at seafooid restaurants at all, don't worry about what they're wearing, and don't kill their children for sassing them .


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## Sid James

^^The left handed thing was prevalent in Europe, esp. before 1945 in church run schools. Don't think it's that way now though. Didn't know it was same in Islamic world, but logical, any difference will be targeted by insecure people.

Re the Christian churches, some of them are very open towards gays, eg. the Anglicans have gay reverends (their term for priests) now, have had for a while. As well as female ones. This has caused controversy in the Church of England, but most of it's members support it, there is a small breakaway faction that's totally against these changes (mostly in African countries, their view of Anglicanism is more on the conservative side).

So I think it's a bit risky to tar all Christians with the homophobic brush (as with other religions). Don't forget that many homosexuals died in Hitler's gas chambers, and he was atheist. He also targeted Christians who were against the Nazi regime. You can make an argument that lack of basic human compassion and empathy is the root of all this, any ideology gone wrong - be it religious or not - can support and justify the most inhumane things.

But I've gone off topic (but you did a bit too!)...


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## Polednice

Sid James said:


> ^^The left handed thing was prevalent in Europe, esp. before 1945 in church run schools. Don't think it's that way now though. Didn't know it was same in Islamic world, but logical, any difference will be targeted by insecure people.


My Mum went to school in the 70s and even she had her left hand tied behind her back.



Sid James said:


> Re the Christian churches, some of them are very open towards gays, eg. the Anglicans have gay reverends (their term for priests) now, have had for a while. As well as female ones. This has caused controversy in the Church of England, but most of it's members support it, there is a small breakaway faction that's totally against these changes (mostly in African countries, their view of Anglicanism is more on the conservative side).
> 
> So I think it's a bit risky to tar all Christians with the homophobic brush (as with other religions). Don't forget that many homosexuals died in Hitler's gas chambers, and he was atheist. He also targeted Christians who were against the Nazi regime. You can make an argument that lack of basic human compassion and empathy is the root of all this, any ideology gone wrong - be it religious or not - can support and justify the most inhumane things.
> 
> But I've gone off topic (but you did a bit too!)...


Oh Sid - your desire to see the best in people is so silly, but it's so damn _nice_ that I'm not going to bother getting frustrated over it!


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## Guest

brianwalker said:


> Lots of pedophiles lead normal successful lives and would lead even better lives if the state did away with their bigoted anti-child-sex laws.


Am I misreading your post, or are you actually supporting adults having sex with, or rather, raping children?


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## Ukko

Kontrapunctus said:


> Am I misreading your post, or are you actually supporting adults having sex with, or rather, raping children?


I don't know how many members we have, but probably enough to make it statistically likely that there are one or more pedophiles among us.


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## Sid James

I think this is a case of trolling, guys - don't take the bait! I don't mean you Hilltroll but the original comments about paedophiles.


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## Polednice

Kontrapunctus said:


> Am I misreading your post, or are you actually supporting adults having sex with, or rather, raping children?


I think it's more likely that he's suggesting homosexuality is dysfunctional like paedophilia.


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## Couchie

Gay people are homosexuals.


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## Polednice

Couchie said:


> Gay people are homosexuals.


No, homosexual people are gay.


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## dmg

A couple of articles for your perusal:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080617151845.htm








http://www.livescience.com/2623-gays-dont-extinct.html


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## Polednice

dmg said:


> A couple of articles for your perusal:
> 
> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080617151845.htm
> View attachment 4999
> 
> 
> http://www.livescience.com/2623-gays-dont-extinct.html


These kinds of studies are interesting, but (irrespective of their validity) they present a double-edged cultural sword. On the one hand, they vindicate the idea that homosexuality is biologically determined, otherwise we would not see such clear evidence in brain structure. On the other hand, they perpetuate the stereotype that gay men are really women "inside", and gay women are really men. Both of these interpretations are of course gross simplifications of what's really going on, but that's how the media works. I would be interested to see if any of these studies have attempted to control for characteristics in their participants that are traditionally perceived as masculine or feminine (i.e. would the brain of a beefy, gay male butch biker show the same level of "feminisation" as that of a relatively high-pitched musical lover?). If so, it might help demonstrate that the regions of the brain that exhibit traits more typical of the opposite sex are localised to places that deal solely with sexual attraction rather than with a whole host of other behavioural traits considered to indicate effeminacy.


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## Guest

Polednice said:


> I think it's more likely that he's suggesting homosexuality is dysfunctional like paedophilia.


In the words of Huck Finn, "That's a stretcher"!


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## graaf




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## Philip




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## PetrB

Sometimes you're up, sometimes you're down.


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## moody

Kontrapunctus said:


> In the words of Huck Finn, "That's a stretcher"!


No, actually he's nuts.


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## moody

Sid James said:


> ^^The left handed thing was prevalent in Europe, esp. before 1945 in church run schools. Don't think it's that way now though. Didn't know it was same in Islamic world, but logical, any difference will be targeted by insecure people.
> 
> Re the Christian churches, some of them are very open towards gays, eg. the Anglicans have gay reverends (their term for priests) now, have had for a while. As well as female ones. This has caused controversy in the Church of England, but most of it's members support it, there is a small breakaway faction that's totally against these changes (mostly in African countries, their view of Anglicanism is more on the conservative side).
> 
> So I think it's a bit risky to tar all Christians with the homophobic brush (as with other religions). Don't forget that many homosexuals died in Hitler's gas chambers, and he was atheist. He also targeted Christians who were against the Nazi regime. You can make an argument that lack of basic human compassion and empathy is the root of all this, any ideology gone wrong - be it religious or not - can support and justify the most inhumane things.
> 
> But I've gone off topic (but you did a bit too!)...


This is where the word 'sinister' comes from--left handed.


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## moody

Moira said:


> lol, moody! Everyone knows what gay people look like! This is a fact of life. Gay people OBVIOUSLY dress better than others. So if you are well dressed you may be, in fact probably are, gay. Gay people like classical music. That's a big giveaway. This is true, but it is even more true (if truth can be relative) if the person likes musical theatre and opera. Gay people can cook well, in fact brilliantly. They like to have elegant dinner parties. With loads of bubbly. These are only a few of millions of tell tale signs, which I don't have time to type out for you.


I suppose if I say that I have seldom seen such unmitigated rollocks, you will say that you were only joking?


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## Ukko

moody said:


> I suppose if I say that I have seldom seen such unmitigated rollocks, you will say that you were only joking?


You should perhaps note that the traits _Moira_ assigns to gays require that they be well-to-do. She chooses to closet the ghetto gays.


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## regressivetransphobe

Philip said:


>


If I was gay this album would really offend me. Like, more than usual.


----------



## Mesa

Eh? Gaga is a beloved horseman of our people and a thoroughly entertaining lass.


----------



## regressivetransphobe

Besides the fact her music is terrible, her treatment of gays strikes me as really condescending and superficial. Like they're a "neat" novelty or some sort of morality pet.


----------



## Mesa

Interesting point, but an untrue one at that.


----------



## Lenfer

Cnote11 said:


> What about lesbians though? It has been shown that the female sexuality is much more fluid, compared to the more concrete sexuality of men. What does this mean to you?


What do you mean by more fluid *Cnote*? I don't get your post at all please forgive me I'm having an off day could you explain?

I'm not homosexual but I dislike how gay men are "gay" and gay women are "lesbian". Both sexes should be gay or men should be given a nicer name.


----------



## Polednice

regressivetransphobe said:


> Besides the fact her music is terrible, her treatment of gays strikes me as really condescending and superficial. Like they're a "neat" novelty or some sort of morality pet.


I think I'd have to agree here. I'm not at all a part of that "scene", and I know that Gaga gets actively involved in political efforts, but I find her motives demeaning. Her attitude - a prevalent one among women like her - is not that homosexuality ought to be on equal footing, but that gay _people_ are fun and lovely and brilliant and so deserve the same rights as everyone else. In fact, gay people can be nice, and they can be [naughty word that the forum censor is too dumb to pick up] just like the rest of us. One of my friends says it only jokingly to me, but she says that my lack of interest in dance and pop music and fashion means I'm not a "proper" gay - Gaga might think that genuinely.


----------



## Lenfer

regressivetransphobe said:


> Besides the fact her music is terrible, her treatment of gays strikes me as really condescending and superficial. Like they're a "neat" novelty or some sort of morality pet.


Who's treatment of gays?

edit:

Surprised ***** didn't get censored not a fan of censorship on the forum but for **** sake...


----------



## Cnote11

Lenfer said:


> What do you mean by more fluid *Cnote*? I don't get your post at all please forgive me I'm having an off day could you explain?
> 
> I'm not homosexual but I dislike how gay men are "gay" and gay women are "lesbian". Both sexes should be gay or men should be given a nicer name.


I agree with your second point, but often people do not have gay women come to mind when you say "gay". Most of the focus is always on gay men. What I mean by more "fluid" is that it has been shown that women have the ability to continually change their sexual attraction in comparison to men. At points in a woman's life she can be attracted to men, and then attracted to women, and then back to just men, or either/or, etc. Unlike men, who are typically either homosexual or heterosexual. They say women can move between being those two things within their life span.


----------



## Lenfer

Cnote11 said:


> I agree with your second point, but often people do not have gay women come to mind when you say "gay". Most of the focus is always on gay men. What I mean by more "fluid" is that it has been shown that women have the ability to continually change their sexual attraction in comparison to men. At points in a woman's life she can be attracted to men, and then attracted to women, and then back to just men, or either/or, etc. Unlike men, who are typically either homosexual or heterosexual. They say women can move between being those two things within their life span.


I see thanks *Cnote* I disagree though. A friend of mine thinks everyone is naturally bisexual and to some degree preferences and external factors cause some people to go one way or the other.

However I just think the fluidity of a women's sexuality is down to the fact that it's a male dominated society. It goes back to "who's the women" in same sex relationships. From my experience the first thing that comes to mind of some straight men (the ones who look negatively on being gay) is **** sex and the fact "someone takes it up the bottom".

There's none of this when talking about two women and as a result it's glamourised in the media a way that two men is not. Getting drunk in college and kissing a friend is hardly a foray into your sexuality at least in my opinion. I don't think women are likely to change there sexuality than men I don't think that can be done by either sex. It may just be that at some point these people want families and to be "respectable" please their parents etc. Sadly in some parts of the world you need to be in a man + women relationship.


----------



## Polednice

Lenfer said:


> However I just think the fluidity of a women's sexuality is down to the fact that it's a male dominated society. It goes back to "who's the women" in same sex relationships. From my experience the first thing that comes to mind of some straight men (the ones who look negatively on being gay) is **** sex and the fact "someone takes it up the bottom".


And some people seem to forget that the **** sex isn't mandatory!


----------



## violadude

............


----------



## Lenfer

Polednice said:


> And some people seem to forget that the **** sex isn't mandatory!


Indeed I wasn't trying to imply it was sorry if I gave anyone the wrong impression.


----------



## Polednice

Lenfer said:


> Indeed I wasn't trying to imply it was sorry if I gave anyone the wrong impression.


No, no, I was talking about people in general.


----------



## Cnote11

Here is one little bit from a study done

Debates persist over whether bisexuality is a temporary stage of denial or transition, a stable "3rd type" of sexual orientation, or a heightened capacity for sexual fluidity. The present study uses 5 waves of longitudinal data collected from 79 lesbian, bisexual, and "unlabeled" women to evaluate these models. Both the "3rd orientation" and "fluidity" models had support, but the "transitional stage" model did not. Over 10 years, 2/3 of women changed the identity labels they had claimed at the beginning of the study, and 1/3 changed labels 2 or more times. Yet, contrary to the "transitional stage" model, more women adopted bisexual/unlabeled identities than relinquished these identities; few bisexual/unlabeled women ended up identifying as lesbian or heterosexual. Overall, the most commonly adopted identity was "unlabeled." Bisexual/unlabeled women had stable overall distributions of same-sex/other-sex attractions but greater absolute fluctuations in attractions from assessment to assessment than lesbians. All women reported declines in their ratio of same-sex to other-sex behavior over time. These findings demonstrate that the distinction between lesbianism and bisexuality is a matter of degree rather than kind.

Here is a link to some article about similar studies:

http://www.bilerico.com/2010/07/study_womens_sexuality_fluid_later_in_life.php


----------



## Cnote11

Although I don't feel these studies really tell me much. I used to have resources to better studies but alas I do not anymore at the moment. Those were some of the first things that popped up on Google and I'm rather lazy after an intense bike ride. Either way, it appears to be a phenomena with women and not men. More research still needs to be done on what factors cause this.


----------



## Polednice

And you thought you'd heard it all...


----------



## Cnote11

I found that thoroughly enjoyable :lol: Great find, Polednice.


----------



## mmsbls

Polednice said:


> And you thought you'd heard it all...


I'm going to a concert in San Francisco tonight, but now I'm a bit worried. I better stay away from those school children.


----------



## Guest

Polednice said:


> And you thought you'd heard it all...


Is she were a dog, we'd have to euthanize her.


----------



## Philip

http://imgur.com/U1fPQ


----------



## Couchie

Jesus was latently homosexual. Even top apologists do not deny that.


----------



## brianwalker

Philip said:


> http://imgur.com/U1fPQ


Old Testament makes things pretty clear.


----------



## violadude

Polednice said:


> And you thought you'd heard it all...


hahahaha I like that guy right behind her with the glasses.


----------



## regressivetransphobe

At first I was like "what? huh... wait, _what?_ WHAAAAT?" then I was like "ohhh, she's mentally ill." Thin line.


----------



## Lunasong

brianwalker said:


> Old Testament makes things pretty clear.


Don't go there unless you're willing to defend...

*Owning A Canadian*

On her radio show, Dr Laura Schlesinger said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under any circumstance.

The following response is an open letter to Dr. Laura, written by a U.S. man, and posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as informative:

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination ... End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians.
Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of Menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take
offense.

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors.....They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination, Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend).
He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I'm confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your adoring fan,

James M. Kauffman, Ed.D. Professor Emeritus,
Dept. Of Curriculum, Instruction, and Special Education
University of Virginia

P.S. It would be a damn shame if we couldn't own a Canadian.


----------



## Polednice

Did the West Wing steal that bit from the internet, or did the internet steal it from the West Wing? Either way, yes, Christians have a hard time logically defending the use of scripture from the Old Testament. Could there even be the remotest chance that Christians get their sense of morality from somewhere _other_ than the Bible and then use verse to try to justify their prejudices?!?!?!


----------



## Ukko

Polednice said:


> Did the West Wing steal that bit from the internet, or did the internet steal it from the West Wing? Either way, yes, Christians have a hard time logically defending the use of scripture from the Old Testament. Could there even be the remotest chance that Christians get their sense of morality from somewhere _other_ than the Bible and then use verse to try to justify their prejudices?!?!?!


The letter has been circulating on the Internet since ~2000. Modern Jewish practice, except for some Orthodox and the Hassidics, does not accept those ancient rules. Schlesinger _certainly doesn't_ in her personal life.


----------



## Cnote11

Why not???


----------



## AlainB

In my opinion, anyone who says being homosexual is a choice, is pretty much an ignorant (and probably orthodox religious) person.

Personally, I'm a bisexual and can imagine the world of a homosexual. I've had numerous relationships with women, and some sex-only ones with men. For one reason or another, I can't possibly imagine myself being in a true, solid relationship with a man. No offence, but they're seen as sex purposes, whereas a woman, one would feel more comfortable being with. This is of course from my experience and my own view.

Anyway... to those who think that being homosexual is a choice: no, it is not, as far as I can tell. Have you ever tried getting horny by watching someone who isn't matching your sexual orientation's gender? It's hard to get aroused. 

The only reason heterosexuals sometimes get involved in gay sex is being they're probably too horny to hold it in and want to share it at that very moment, regardless of who it is.


----------



## Lunasong

Cnote11 said:


> Why not???


To me, the point is: What is God's law? He only wrote ten, which Jesus condensed to two. Every other rule in the Bible is human-written.


----------



## Sid James

Hilltroll72 said:


> The letter has been circulating on the Internet since ~2000. Modern Jewish practice, except for some Orthodox and the Hassidics, does not accept those ancient rules. Schlesinger _certainly doesn't_ in her personal life.


Yeah, well I think it's a case of people tarring all of the Jewish faith with the same homophobic brush. Same as Christians are all put in the same anti everything gay basket just due to what some hard liners or fundamentalists say. Reality is much more complex than that, and yes the world has moved on quite a bit since the thousands of years since Leviticus. Christ himself dined with beggars, prostitutes, basically the outsiders of that society. His philosophy of this kind of social justice makes me think he would have been proud to dine with homosexuals as well. Maybe a long shot, but not far from the truth, methinks.


----------



## Polednice

Sid James said:


> Yeah, well I think it's a case of people tarring all of the Jewish faith with the same homophobic brush. Same as Christians are all put in the same anti everything gay basket just due to what some hard liners or fundamentalists say. Reality is much more complex than that, and yes the world has moved on quite a bit since the thousands of years since Leviticus. Christ himself dined with beggars, prostitutes, basically the outsiders of that society. His philosophy of this kind of social justice makes me think he would have been proud to dine with homosexuals as well. Maybe a long shot, but not far from the truth, methinks.


Oh wow! Bundling homosexuals with beggars, prostitutes and outsiders. Classy move, Sid.


----------



## Ukko

Polednice said:


> Oh wow! Bundling homosexuals with beggars, prostitutes and outsiders. Classy move, Sid.


It isn't _Sid_'s move. The 'bundling' was done by the Torah, is my guess.


----------



## Sid James

Polednice said:


> Oh wow! Bundling homosexuals with beggars, prostitutes and outsiders. Classy move, Sid.


Homosexual people were a minority then, that's what I'm saying. & like minorities, discriminated against and oppressed. They are still a minority, but in Western democracies, it is no longer illegal to practice homosexuality as it used to be (in Australia, as recently as the 1980's or thereabouts). But back then, in the time of Christ, I would guess that homosexuals would have come out at the pain of death. Leviticus would have been the justification for that, in the Old Testament which Christ came to reform (& that was also at the pain of death).

If you were only joking, you can ignore this mini lecture - I'm no evangelist trying to convert anybody LOL.


----------



## Polednice

Just joking, boyo!


----------



## Lunasong

Sid James said:


> But back then, in the time of Christ, I would guess that homosexuals would have come out at the pain of death.


Meanwhile, the Romans were expressing themselves freely...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Rome

...which Paul condemns in his Letter to the Romans 1:18-27.

A thoughtful response.
http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=6289

My problem with the writer's conclusion _That was Paul's view. If it was Paul's view recorded in the inspired text, then it is God's view. And if it is God's view, it should be ours if we call ourselves Christian. _ is that in many of Paul's writings he promotes viewpoints that are clearly his, not Christ's. It is not surprising, as during the early Church there were many interpretations and books of Gospel, as there are still many sects of Christianity today (which choose not to agree with one another). The books of the New Testament were not canonized (settled upon) until 692 and are still subject to human translation and interpretation.


----------



## Moira

moody said:


> I suppose if I say that I have seldom seen such unmitigated rollocks, you will say that you were only joking?


Yes, moody. I was only joking. 

You are safe from being classified gay because you like classical music.  I suppose I am too.


----------



## Moira

Hilltroll72 said:


> You should perhaps note that the traits _Moira_ assigns to gays require that they be well-to-do. She chooses to closet the ghetto gays.


Actually, it is interesting that in Southern Africa, there is a line of thought that no black people are gay unless they have been perverted by bad, bad white people. Of course, in South Africa this is not official speak, because at the moment we have a constitution which specifically mentions sexual orientation as being protected.

Unofficially though black gay people, particularly the ones who do live in townships (ghettos of sorts), are terribly prejudiced. Not so much the men, but the women. Lesbians in South Africa are frequently subjected to 'corrective rape'. I join both the official stance of the government and the solidarity stance of most of the arts community (and others) in speaking out against this horrible way of thinking whenever possible.

So ... all this proves is that I know (or at least know of) ghetto gays of both sexes. Lots of them do fall neatly into stereotypical patterns, incidentally.


----------



## Moira

Polednice said:


> And you thought you'd heard it all...


Oh my word! I love the reaction of the man to her left.


----------



## Ukko

Moira said:


> Oh my word! I love the reaction of the man to her left.


(to her right) He is overly demonstrative. The lady to her left smiled and shrugged at one point, but mostly looked mildly bemused. Probably was thinking, "Oh dear; another of us old folks whose train has left the tracks."


----------



## Polednice

It's worth noting that _Winter Wipeout_, the show at the beginning created by gay Netherlanders she says contains broken bones and manslaughter is actually a game show in the form of an obstacle course.


----------



## Moira

Hilltroll72 said:


> (to her right) He is overly demonstrative. The lady to her left smiled and shrugged at one point, but mostly looked mildly bemused. Probably was thinking, "Oh dear; another of us old folks whose train has left the tracks."


Yes. To the left of the photograph. I should have been specific about what I meant. I am not sure that he is overly demonstrative. Her propositions are bizarre. Especially as in things like Winter Wipeout being an obstacle course game show. And why, why, why do haters always ignore the millions of heteros who have **** sex?


----------



## Moira

Moira said:


> **** sex?


Umm. This website is delightfully coy.


----------



## Ukko

Moira said:


> Umm. This website is delightfully coy.


It's just saving you from embarrassing us all with unladylike behavior.



[Yeah, I know. That smiley didn't deter _PetrB_'s high dudgeon. Some folks get very annoyed by a finger-poke in the ribs.]

:angel:


----------



## NightHawk

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think Cnote11 was endorsing the article, at all.



moody said:


> That isn't interesting--it's ridiculous, gay men are not all trying to be women by any means.
> Your question was very naive, don't you know any gay s, you have no choice--apart from pretending to be straight--there is no 'cure' and I would have thought it worth your while to have asked a few questions before blundering ahead.


----------



## Polednice

Moira said:


> And why, why, why do haters always ignore the millions of heteros who have **** sex?


And as I said earlier, that not all gay men have **** sex. I believe I read a statistic somewhere that 20% of committed male same-sex relationships do not feature **** sex amongst their sexual activities. I'd be surprised if that number was right, but there's certainly a sub-set of gay men who don't do it.


----------



## Cnote11

NightHawk said:


> Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think Cnote11 was endorsing the article, at all.


Don't you worry, NightHawk. Moody just likes to get on my back about everything, the same way HillTroll does. They misrepresent my posts to get the greatest criticism factor out of it. I think it has something to do with being old.


----------



## Ukko

Cnote11 said:


> Don't you worry, NightHawk. Moody just likes to get on my back about everything, the same way HillTroll does. They misrepresent my posts to get the greatest criticism factor out of it. I think it has something to do with being old.


Both _moody_ and I have the power to sort out your statements to find the _errata_. His implementation may be different, but in my case they show up in a glowing magenta, pulsating, intensity increasing with the magnitude of the error.


----------



## Cnote11

Sounds like your gaydar is working quite well.


----------



## Couchie

I believe being gay is a choice... God's choice. 

*cheesy music*


----------



## Philip

I choose: lesbian porn











http://imgur.com/8xIJy


----------



## mamascarlatti

Goodness I watched the beginning of the mad lady's presention and apart from the bewildering content, it's an object lesson in how to mangle the English language by attempting to use words you don't really understand. 

Also if you could use this to illustrate the concept of "non sequitur".


----------



## Moira

mamascarlatti said:


> Goodness I watched the beginning of the mad lady's presention and apart from the bewildering content, it's an object lesson in how to mangle the English language by attempting to use words you don't really understand.
> 
> Also if you could use this to illustrate the concept of "non sequitur".


I love fundamentalists who come up with rubbish like this. It makes the rest of us sound so rational.  But it can be a trial. One of the kids who was taught by a gay friend of mine who was once head of (music) department at a specialist performing arts school had a mother who was one of these anti-gay ranters. It was difficult for her child, because most of the kids at school thought the mother was crazy (which was true) and the teacher very sane and sensible (which was also true).


----------



## violadude

Philip said:


> I choose: lesbian porn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/8xIJy


There was a time when I didn't support gay marriage but I did still watch lesbian porn and this paradox always haunted me.

No joke.


----------



## Turangalîla

People _can_ be born with homosexual tendencies (this can usually be brought on because of upbringing, etc.) but it is _certainly_ a choice to act on those feelings. I don't think that that can be debated. So, in other words, living a life as a homosexual is a choice.


----------



## Moira

CarterJohnsonPiano said:


> People _can_ be born with homosexual tendencies (this can usually be brought on because of upbringing, etc.) but it is _certainly_ a choice to act on those feelings. I don't think that that can be debated. So, in other words, living a life as a homosexual is a choice.


Living life as a heterosexual is a choice. Suicide is, after all, a valid option.

The reality of the question is not whether one CHOOSES to have sex or not but whether one chooses (or not) to be sexually attracted to a person of the same sex.


----------



## Crudblud

CarterJohnsonPiano said:


> People _can_ be born with homosexual tendencies (this can usually be brought on because of upbringing, etc.)


Ah yes, I forgot that people go through their upbringing prior to birth.

On topic: There was a thought process involved for me, but one of discovery rather than decision making. I experimented in my teenage years as I'm sure many people do these days, and found both males and females to my liking. I also like boys who dress as girls and vice versa.

Somewhat off topic: Sometimes, rather selfishly, I do wish homosexuality didn't exist, because then I wouldn't be in love with a lesbian. At the same time, she's become much happier since she made that discovery after several years of confusion. I can't begrudge her that, nor should I withhold my sexuality from myself.


----------



## Chrythes

CarterJohnsonPiano said:


> People _can_ be born with homosexual tendencies (this can usually be brought on because of upbringing, etc.) but it is _certainly_ a choice to act on those feelings. I don't think that that can be debated. So, in other words, living a life as a homosexual is a choice.


You believe this because this is what they told you at church?


----------



## Sid James

Lunasong said:


> Meanwhile, the Romans were expressing themselves freely...
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Rome
> 
> ...which Paul condemns in his Letter to the Romans 1:18-27.
> 
> A thoughtful response.
> http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=6289
> 
> My problem with the writer's conclusion _That was Paul's view. If it was Paul's view recorded in the inspired text, then it is God's view. And if it is God's view, it should be ours if we call ourselves Christian. _ is that in many of Paul's writings he promotes viewpoints that are clearly his, not Christ's. It is not surprising, as during the early Church there were many interpretations and books of Gospel, as there are still many sects of Christianity today (which choose not to agree with one another). The books of the New Testament were not canonized (settled upon) until 692 and are still subject to human translation and interpretation.


Since Christ did not say anything to my knowledge directly on this matter, I was saying what I said based on his actions. He was for the downtrodden and outcasts of the society. It's my inference for sure. I will have to read that article in depth. However I agree that there are different takes on the New Testament, hence the various denominations of Christianity. Catholics and Orthodox are more on the conservative side and the Protestants, eg. Anglicans, generally on the more moderate and modernising side. thanks for your reply.


----------



## Ukko

Moira said:


> Living life as a heterosexual is a choice. Suicide is, after all, a valid option.
> 
> The reality of the question is not whether one CHOOSES to have sex or not but whether one chooses (or not) to be sexually attracted to a person of the same sex.


Yep, that is clearly *the question*. The answers (there are at least two - more counting hedges) seem to follow the same paths as does the evolution-creation 'question'.

I wonder why that is.


----------



## moody

Cnote11 said:


> Don't you worry, NightHawk. Moody just likes to get on my back about everything, the same way HillTroll does. They misrepresent my posts to get the greatest criticism factor out of it. I think it has something to do with being old.


that is not true in my case I can assure you altho' you often deserve it. As somebody has suggested i must have misunderstood exactly what you meant. I'm sorry if I've hurt you.
Your last remark is not worthy of you incidentally.


----------



## moody

Moira said:


> Living life as a heterosexual is a choice. Suicide is, after all, a valid option.
> 
> The reality of the question is not whether one CHOOSES to have sex or not but whether one chooses (or not) to be sexually attracted to a person of the same sex.


No, you don't choose but are attracted by a person you find attractive for Heaven's sake.
If I like other men I am revolted at the thought of a union with a woman and vice versa. Unless of course I swing both ways.


----------



## Ukko

moody said:


> that is not true in my case I can assure you altho' you often deserve it. As somebody has suggested i must have misunderstood exactly what you meant. I'm sorry if I've hurt you.
> Your last remark is not worthy of you incidentally.


It is of course true in my case. I constantly inflict the whippersnappers with The Wisdom of the Aged anyway, and _Cnot_ offers more opportunities than most of them.


----------



## Philip

CarterJohnsonPiano said:


> People _can_ be born with homosexual tendencies (this can usually be brought on because of upbringing, etc.) but it is _certainly_ a choice to act on those feelings. I don't think that that can be debated. So, in other words, living a life as a homosexual is a choice.


You have a lot to learn, son.

Dr Philip


----------



## Turangalîla

Crudblud said:


> Ah yes, I forgot that people go through their upbringing prior to birth.


My apologies; I misworded my sentence. I suggested that homosexual tendencies can begin from birth (much has to do with testosterone, estrogen, etc. present in the brain), but that much of it is also a result of upbringing. Every single one of the homosexual males I know was not raised by their father.


----------



## Turangalîla

Chrythes said:


> You believe this because this is what they told you at church?


Are you suggesting that only church-going people are opposed to homosexuality? And to answer your question, no, this is _my_ opinion; I have not been brainwashed.


----------



## Turangalîla

Philip said:


> You have a lot to learn, son.
> 
> Dr Philip


Would you care to impart some of your knowledge with me?


----------



## Philip

CarterJohnsonPiano said:


> Would you care to impart some of your knowledge with me?


It's life experience, which isn't impartable.


----------



## Turangalîla

Philip said:


> It's life experience, which isn't impartable.


If you disagree with _my_ statement, surely you should be able to support _your_ reasoning in a couple of statements, life experience or no life experience.


----------



## Philip

CarterJohnsonPiano said:


> If you disagree with _my_ statement, surely you should be able to support _your_ reasoning in a couple of statements, life experience or no life experience.


I'm gonna put it like my gay uncle once told me: "If sexual orientation were a choice, people would choose to be straight; Life is much simpler that way."


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## Sid James

Abe Lincoln is gonna take yous all to a gay bar gay bar gay bar (no, this song is not by Philip Glass)...warning it's a bit raunchy -


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## Ukko

CarterJohnsonPiano said:


> My apologies; I misworded my sentence. I suggested that homosexual tendencies can begin from birth (much has to do with testosterone, estrogen, etc. present in the brain), but that much of it is also a result of upbringing. Every single one of the homosexual males I know was not raised by their father.


Your sample is too small. The data is probably out there, if you are interested in that hypothesis.

[Edit: I forgot to add that if you do go looking for data, it will come from a variety of sources, and will be mutually contradictory. There ways to fix that problem, but I don't know them; _mmsbls_ probably knows the best methology.]


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## Guest

I am agnostic on the root causes of homosexuality. I just don't know. I do believe that homosexual actions, just like heterosexual actions, are done out of choice. Either type of person, for example, could choose to be celibate.


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## Turangalîla

Hilltroll72 said:


> Your sample is too small. The data is probably out there, if you are interested in that hypothesis.
> 
> [Edit: I forgot to add that if you do go looking for data, it will come from a variety of sources, and will be mutually contradictory. There ways to fix that problem, but I don't know them; _mmsbls_ probably knows the best methology.]


I am not saying that all of the homosexual males in the world were not raised by their father, nor do I claim to know everything about the cause of homosexuality. But the "small" sample I see is an indication worth some merit.


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## Ukko

CarterJohnsonPiano said:


> I am not saying that all of the homosexual males in the world were not raised by their father, nor do I claim to know everything about the cause of homosexuality. But the "small" sample I see is an indication worth some merit.


Nope; it's useless, unless you use it with an ulterior motive...


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## mamascarlatti

CarterJohnsonPiano said:


> I am not saying that all of the homosexual males in the world were not raised by their father, nor do I claim to know everything about the cause of homosexuality. But the "small" sample I see is an indication worth some merit.


Anecdotal evidence means absolutely nothing. Correlation and causality are two different things as well.

Every single lesbian I know was raised by both parents.

Therefore being raised by both parents makes you a lesbian?


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## Fsharpmajor

DrMike said:


> I am agnostic on the root causes of homosexuality. I just don't know. I do believe that homosexual actions, just like heterosexual actions, are done out of choice. Either type of person, for example, could choose to be celibate.


But if everybody is expected to be celibate before marriage, and homosexuals are never allowed to marry, does that seem fair?--just asking, nothing personal is meant about your beliefs, but we're probably going to have full gay marriage here within a year, more or less the same way that it works in Canada.


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## Turangalîla

mamascarlatti said:


> Anecdotal evidence means absolutely nothing.
> 
> Every single lesbian I know was raised by both parents.
> 
> Therefore being raised by both parents makes you a lesbian?


I never said that anecdotal evidence meant everything; you are using a false analogy. Not all homosexual males were not raised by their father-it would be ludicrous to believe such a thing.


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## regressivetransphobe

But literally all homosexuals _came_ from a father, I mean, if you really trace things back. Therefore maleness causes the gay. QED SUCKERS


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## myaskovsky2002

Sometimes... Choosing to be gay could be a sort of revenge? Having very bad experiences with the opposite sex...can "push" somebody to become gay? In terms of sex, I am definetely straight. In terms of friendship, I prefer males. I think we understand better each other. I think I don't understand women so much... We don't have the same mind... Sleep with and talk to not being the same. What do you think?

Martin


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## Turangalîla

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Sometimes... Choosing to be gay could be a sort of revenge? Having very bad experiences with the opposite sex...can "push" somebody to become gay? In terms of sex, I am definetely straight. In terms of friendship, I prefer males. I think we understand better each other. I think I don't understand women so much... We don't have the same mind... Sleep with and talk to not being the same. What do you think?
> 
> Martin


Most people prefer to have friendships with same-gendered people because they think alike. You are quite normal.


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## myaskovsky2002

It depends.

Martin


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Sometimes... Choosing to be gay could be a sort of revenge? Having very bad experiences with the opposite sex...can "push" somebody to become gay? In terms of sex, I am definetely straight. In terms of friendship, I prefer males. I think we understand better each other. I think I don't understand women so much... We don't have the same mind... Sleep with and talk to not being the same. What do you think?
> 
> Martin


I have no preference of gender when it comes to friends. Of my closest friends, two are male and three are female.


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## Philip

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Sometimes... Choosing to be gay could be a sort of revenge? Having very bad experiences with the opposite sex...can "push" somebody to become gay? In terms of sex, I am definetely straight. In terms of friendship, I prefer males. I think we understand better each other. I think I don't understand women so much... We don't have the same mind... Sleep with and talk to not being the same. What do you think?
> 
> Martin


That's one of the dumbest things i've ever heard in my life.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Philip said:


> That's one of the dumbest things i've ever heard in my life.


What a nice thing to say! Actually I might agree with you on this one anyway.


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## Lokasenna

> That's one of the dumbest things i've ever heard in my life.


An ex-girlfriend once told me that I'd driven her to lesbianism. But then, she was quite, quite mad.

I don't think having a bad experience with the opposite sex can push one to change sexuality. Or at the very least, I've never heard of it happening..?


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## presto

I’m not gay myself and I have nothing against them but I do sometimes feel that they are taking over!
Or perhaps they just publicise themselves more these days!


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## violadude

presto said:


> I'm not gay myself and I have nothing against them but I do sometimes feel that they are taking over!
> Or perhaps they just publicise themselves more these days!


Well, a good, healthy percentage of homosexuals in the world would do wonders for future generations in terms of over-population.


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## Ukko

violadude said:


> Well, a good, healthy percentage of homosexuals in the world would do wonders for future generations in terms of over-population.


Probably won't work. Looks like the preponderance of intolerance is in the 'non-privileged' population, which is also the high birthrate sector. So the poor folk stay in the closet, unmarried, available for aunt/uncle baby tending roles. The roles they had a million years ago, eh? Except that closets weren't invented yet, and 'gays' were valued members of their societies, eh?


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## Iforgotmypassword

Philip said:


> That's one of the dumbest things i've ever heard in my life.


Really? I've seen this happen from personal experience with two girls from high school. One of them was a bit on the homely side and had a low self-esteem. She always went out with lower class guys that lived in trailers and had messed up lives. I always had a feeling that she was attracted to me, but didn't have the courage to tell me (and I didn't feel the same so I kept her as a friend) later on I found out that she had "gone gay" and immediately understood what had happened. She had felt worthless in terms of attractiveness toward men and gave up.

Another instance was with a girl who I was good friends with in high school. She was actually very attractive and several guys liked her. She had a boyfriend who was apparently really "hot" from what I'm told by some other girls... though to me he was just a dude I knew. Anyways I noticed as the years passed up to senior year that she began to feel more and more insecure about herself in terms of appearance. I hadn't noticed anything, though to me now she was just my friend and so I didn't pay as much attention to her attractiveness.. however she confided in me that guys didn't find her attractive anymore and that she could tell. I attempted to give her confidence, but it didn't work. She was convinced. That year her boyfriend of all of high school cheated on her. They stopped dating and she was single for the first time in years. I didn't see her for a couple of years after that, but when I did she had a "girlfriend" and I immediately understood what had happened.

I don't give these examples to act as if these girls' feelings aren't' real, the mind is a powerful thing and I'm certain that they do feel strongly about the women that they are attracted to. My point is that homosexuality IS affected by outside forces and such and that it CAN be a choice just as for some it is not.

In my opinion it is a matter of nature vs. nurture. Both have valid points and probably play a role somewhere but which one is the actual predominant cause can't really be determined since it varies for everyone.


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## myaskovsky2002

Lokasenna said:


> An ex-girlfriend once told me that I'd driven her to lesbianism. But then, she was quite, quite mad.
> 
> I don't think having a bad experience with the opposite sex can push one to change sexuality. Or at the very least, I've never heard of it happening..?


I knew a case... But I am dumb, do not listen to me. Maybe the girl was already attracted to women. But she was married for 12 years and they had a very hard divorce. She wasn't meeting men but some female friends. A lesbian started to go out with her and finally she (her words)_ discovered something that no men could give to her until now_. Take your own conclusions. About sex, I have read that all of us have the two sexs, we develop more one or the other one (this makes sense). A straight person then could change his/her orientation in some circumstances. I am not a specialist, I am just dumb.

Every man has his female side; every woman has her male side. I love chocolate (female), I hate romantic movies, I prefer action (male)

Martin, not happy...but dumb


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## Philip

Iforgotmypassword said:


> Really? I've seen this happen from personal experience with two girls from high school. One of them was a bit on the homely side and had a low self-esteem. She always went out with lower class guys that lived in trailers and had messed up lives. I always had a feeling that she was attracted to me, but didn't have the courage to tell me (and I didn't feel the same so I kept her as a friend) later on I found out that she had "gone gay" and immediately understood what had happened. She had felt worthless in terms of attractiveness toward men and gave up.
> 
> Another instance was with a girl who I was good friends with in high school. She was actually very attractive and several guys liked her. She had a boyfriend who was apparently really "hot" from what I'm told by some other girls... though to me he was just a dude I knew. Anyways I noticed as the years passed up to senior year that she began to feel more and more insecure about herself in terms of appearance. I hadn't noticed anything, though to me now she was just my friend and so I didn't pay as much attention to her attractiveness.. however she confided in me that guys didn't find her attractive anymore and that she could tell. I attempted to give her confidence, but it didn't work. She was convinced. That year her boyfriend of all of high school cheated on her. They stopped dating and she was single for the first time in years. I didn't see her for a couple of years after that, but when I did she had a "girlfriend" and I immediately understood what had happened.
> 
> I don't give these examples to act as if these girls' feelings aren't' real, the mind is a powerful thing and I'm certain that they do feel strongly about the women that they are attracted to. My point is that homosexuality IS affected by outside forces and such and that it CAN be a choice just as for some it is not.
> 
> In my opinion it is a matter of nature vs. nurture. Both have valid points and probably play a role somewhere but which one is the actual predominant cause can't really be determined since it varies for everyone.


Well, let me explain my point of view. Sexual orientation doesn't seem to be all that definite, some people are actually bisexual. In which case, like in your example, social conditions may be enough to tip a bisexual person from one camp to the other. There could possibly be biological reasons such as hormonal influence... hormones play a big role in sexual development.

There may be other reasons why a person would want to switch sides, eg. attention seeking, peer pressure, rebellion, etc. On the other hand, i'd highly doubt if the majority of people could _truly_ change sexual orientation on demand, ie. by choice; whether that person is frustrated with the opposite sex, or for any other reason. I suspect sexual orientation is regulated on a fairly low biological level.

Could you make the switch? What makes you think somebody else could? These isolated examples are definitely not enough to say that homosexuality, or sexual orientation in general, is a choice.


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## myaskovsky2002

Conclusion: there is no conclusion, nobody knows niente! Of course, because we are not sexologist here, just regular people trying to make suppositions. Assume this site as a dilenttatism. "un passe-temps" like wasting our time myserably, let's talk about music, guys... And conjugate this verb:

I know nothing about this
You now nathing abut these
He knowss nithing aboutnthys
She knowz nothing abut thus
It knows nothing about this, certainly the most important one
They neuuu notting about theeez

Nitram, bored


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## Philip

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Conclusion:


The conclusion is pretty clear when you ask people in real life.


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## myaskovsky2002

Philip said:


> The conclusion is pretty clear when you ask people in real life.


It depends.

Martin


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## Iforgotmypassword

Philip said:


> Well, let me explain my point of view. Sexual orientation doesn't seem to be all that definite, some people are actually bisexual. In which case, like in your example, social conditions may be enough to tip a bisexual person from one camp to the other. There could possibly be biological reasons such as hormonal influence... hormones play a big role in sexual development.
> 
> There may be other reasons why a person would want to switch sides, eg. attention seeking, peer pressure, rebellion, etc. On the other hand, i'd highly doubt if the majority of people could _truly_ change sexual orientation on demand, ie. by choice; whether that person is frustrated with the opposite sex, or for any other reason. I suspect sexual orientation is regulated on a fairly low biological level.
> 
> Could you make the switch? What makes you think somebody else could? These isolated examples are definitely not enough to say that homosexuality, or sexual orientation in general, is a choice.


I wasn't necessarily saying that it is a conscious decision as much as a subconscious mental shift so some event or progressive chain of events could possibly cause an individual to move toward a certain orientation that they may or may not have originally subscribed to.

Could I make that shift under the correct chain of circumstances? Yes, I believe so.

I don't feel that way as of now and a lot of people who are afraid of the concept might reject the idea that they might have the potential to become gay or bisexual, but yes I believe that fostered under the correct environment I could in fact become gay.

Now as I've said, I'm not rejecting the idea that people may have a genetic predisposition towards homosexuality since I'm not a psychologist and haven't made any studies on such... I'm simply proposing that outside factors do or can in some instances play a vital role in deciding the sexual orientation of an individual.


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## Philip

Iforgotmypassword said:


> I wasn't necessarily saying that it is a conscious decision as much as a subconscious mental shift so some event or progressive chain of events could possibly cause an individual to move toward a certain orientation that they may or may not have originally subscribed to.
> 
> Could I make that shift under the correct chain of circumstances? Yes, I believe so.
> 
> I don't feel that way as of now and a lot of people who are afraid of the concept might reject the idea that they might have the potential to become gay or bisexual, but yes I believe that fostered under the correct environment I could in fact become gay.
> 
> Now as I've said, I'm not rejecting the idea that people may have a genetic predisposition towards homosexuality since I'm not a psychologist and haven't made any studies on such... I'm simply proposing that outside factors do or can in some instances play a vital role in deciding the sexual orientation of an individual.


Fair enough. So you agree that (even if in some rare cases it may be 'dynamic') being gay is not a conscious choice?


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## Iforgotmypassword

Philip said:


> Fair enough. So you agree that (even if in some rare cases it may be 'dynamic') being gay is not a conscious choice?


Yes, absolutely. In most cases I would be inclined to believe that it is not a conscious choice.


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## Philip

Iforgotmypassword said:


> Yes, absolutely. In most cases I would be inclined to believe that it is not a conscious choice.


AIGHT.

(My next comment would've been: So you agree that, if it _isn't_ a conscious choice, it _cannot_ be "a sort of revenge"? Hence my initial comment... but you don't have to answer... i think i get your drift.)


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## Couchie

It would be a choice for bisexuals, non?


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## starthrower

Sexual attraction is the same as musical taste. You like what you like. You don't have a choice.


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## Iforgotmypassword

Philip said:


> AIGHT.
> 
> (My next comment would've been: So you agree that, if it _isn't_ a conscious choice, it _cannot_ be "a sort of revenge"? Hence my initial comment... but you don't have to answer... i think i get your drift.)


Well I don't mind answering that.

I suppose my response to that would be that sometimes we act upon thoughts or emotions that are as I said earlier, subconscious and so in certain cases whether common or rare, I believe it to be possible for people to turn to homosexuality in order to spite the opposite sex without realizing their true motives.


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## Philip

Couchie said:


> It would be a choice for bisexuals, non?


You have the choice of partners, yes, but do you choose to be bisexual? (personally, i probably would, more options)



Iforgotmypassword said:


> Well I don't mind answering that.
> 
> I suppose my response to that would be that sometimes we act upon thoughts or emotions that are as I said earlier, subconscious and so in certain cases whether common or rare, I believe it to be possible for people to turn to homosexuality in order to spite the opposite sex without realizing their true motives.


I don't see it, but i guess it's possible.


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## Iforgotmypassword

Philip said:


> I don't see it, but i guess* it's possible.*


That's all I'm saying.


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## violadude

starthrower said:


> Sexual attraction is the same as musical taste. You like what you like. You don't have a choice.


Eh....except I learned to like Schoenberg and the like...I don't think I could ever learn to like...well you know lol


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## starthrower

^^^^^^^^^^^

Well... maybe if you found yourself in an environment where there were no females available for a prolonged period?
You might learn to like...


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

violadude said:


> Eh....except I learned to like Schoenberg and the like...I don't think I could ever learn to like...well you know lol


Anglo-Saxons?
(sorry, bad racist joke)


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## Iforgotmypassword

^ I thought it was funny.

... but corny jokes are my thing.


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## myaskovsky2002

starthrower said:


> Sexual attraction is the same as musical taste. You like what you like. You don't have a choice.


About sexual stuff... I have no idea, about music, you develop... We are not static, are we? Our tastes change often... Unless you stay a beginner all your life... Take a look to the Alzheimer thread. LOL

http://www.talkclassical.com/19925-who-afraid-have-alzheimers.html

Martin


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## Philip

http://imgur.com/I3ZxN


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## Moscow-Mahler

Iforgotmypassword said:


> Really? I've seen this happen from personal experience with two girls from high school. One of them was a bit on the homely side and had a low self-esteem.


I've read in some book that lesbians often have their first sex with a man, even if they later totally turn their sexual interest to women... I mean that in this case lesbian girls differ from gay guys... Though, I do nothing about lesbians, despite me being gay...

But certainly human sexuality is very complex thing. Even Leo Tolstoy had some homoerotical feelings during his youth despite becoming totally straight. I suppose in his case it was just a part of his hypersexuality (he later said to famous proletarian author Maxim Gorky, who sometimes drank vodka during his youth, but unlike the young Tolstoy was a romantic puritanist in sexual cases: "I was a mad fu****r").


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## regressivetransphobe

It is obviously a mix of nature and nurture. I don't see how someone can say it's one or the other, besides PC pressure or religious reasons, respectively.


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## myaskovsky2002

Moscow-Mahler said:


> I've read in some book that lesbians often have their first sex with a man, even if they later totally turn their sexual interest to women... I mean that in this case lesbian girls differ from gay guys... Though, I do nothing about lesbians, despite me being gay...
> 
> But certainly human sexuality is very complex thing. Even Leo Tolstoy had some homoerotical feelings during his youth despite becoming totally straight. I suppose in his case it was just a part of his hypersexuality (he later said to famous proletarian author Maxim Gorky, who sometimes drank vodka during his youth, but unlike the young Tolstoy was a romantic puritanist in sexual cases: "I was a mad fu****r").


How is being gay in Russia, actually?


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## Moscow-Mahler

It depends... In Moscow it's okay, in other places it can be much more difficult. Certainly, lots of young gays have misunderstatement with their parents. But I do not think that the situation is very tragic.


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## Toddlertoddy

Yes because i want to be an outcast in society


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