# Jean Sibelius



## World Violist

One of the greatest symphonists of the 20th century and one of the better ones of all time (I think about top 15-20), Sibelius was also a major, MAJOR exponent of the Tone Poem. His later works, particularly the seventh symphony and Tapiola, reflect his search for melodic and thematic development to the extreme; the seventh symphony is in only one movement and Tapiola derives practically all its thematic stuff from the very first few measures, developing and naturally evolving these themes to their utmost in such a logical and beautiful way as to leave one speechless. Here are the works I particularly like by Sibelius:

Symphonies 3, 4, 6, and 7;
Tapiola;
Pohjola's Daughter;
Kullervo;
The Bard;
In memoriam;
Violin Concerto;
The Oceanides;
The Swan of Tuonela;
String Quartet "Voces Intimae"

Any thoughts?


----------



## ChamberNut

World Violist said:


> String Quartet "Voces Intimae"


Heard this for the first time last month and immediately fell in love with it. Fantastic string quartet.


----------



## World Violist

It was very well-received at its premiere, even said to be the greatest quartet of the twentieth century by several. I don't know about that, but it's definitely still one of my favorites.


----------



## shsherm

Esa Pekka Salonen does a great job with the Los Angeles Philharmonic. I attended 2 concerts by them in 10/07 and the performance was teriffic. I don't know if the LA Phil has recorded them however.


----------



## David C Coleman

I think the violin concerto is amongst the finest and most original I've heard..lush romantic violin sound against dark bleak orchestral moods. And that finale is a gem..

Love the gradual transtion in style from say his first symphony with the big Tchaikovsky style theme in the finale to the bleak, compact seventh based around one bleak theme..

Also the Kullervo symphony is very interesting and not performed enough..Sibelius' mature style not yet evident....


----------



## Sanctus493

I love the 3rd Symphony. Also like En Saga and Finlandia. Heard a brief snippet of the Violin Concerto the other day, sounded cool. Haven't heard much of his other stuff. Any recommendations?


----------



## World Violist

The Oceanides, Pohjola's Daughter, the violin concerto, the seventh symphony, and Tapiola are my favorite Sibelius pieces out there. I don't know exactly where best to start, though the concerto may be a good place. It's quite intense.


----------



## Sanctus493

Thanks, yeah that's what I was thinking. I have a CD of the 6th and 7th Symphony (with En Saga) played by the Scottish Symphony Orchestra conducted by Lief Siegerstam, which I got free with BBC Music Magazine, that's pretty cool. Although I tend to listen to En Saga more (I love the anthemic quality of the main theme running through it), but now you mention it I will go back and give the symphonies another listen. I'm listening to the concerto right now on youtube, you're right, it is pretty intense.  Ooh, just looking on Amazon, found a version by Jascha Heifetz!


----------



## World Violist

Heifetz's Sibelius is very good, and Ginette Neveu's is great. It depends on what you're listening for. Heifetz is extremely intense and... well... perfect (it's Heifetz), while Neveu's recording is more dramatic, intimate and passionate than Heifetz, while still maintaining the perfection of Heifetz's. Take your pick (or both).


----------



## anon2k2

The Sibelius 3rd was the first full symphonic piece that I played in an orchestra (at age 15 or so) and will always have a special place in my heart because of that. I also adore the Violin Concerto. I've only recently become aware of the Lisa Batiashvili recording and really enjoy it, wheras my older favorites had be Heifetz and Perlman.


----------



## Kurkikohtaus

I also like Sibelius. He writes nice music.


----------



## confuoco

I love him.

I am not fan of program music and tone poems, so I prefer his symphonies...My favourite works are Symphonies No. 2, 5 a7 and Violin Concerto. But also some tone poems, e.g. Finlandia, Spring Song and others (Andante Festivo).

These works also belong to my the most beloved and most prefered musical pieces at all.

Maybe he hasn't melodies like Tchaikovsky, perfect musical form like Brahms, brilliant instrumentation like Ravel, but for some reason his music is very close to my soul and I feel connection between me and his works...and maybe for some listeners is boring and old-fashioned, but I like him and I can just say the same irrational and naive, but sincere thing as one Finnish singer on youtube:

*"Everything he wrote is beautiful."*


----------



## Lisztfreak

I don't know, for all the possible complaints about Sibelius' orchestration his music sounds to me like pure velvet. So rafined and so well-polished. He's got a special, unique sound that, after a few months of listening experience one cannot mistake for any other composer. 

And visually, I can really see Finland behind his symphonies and tone poems. The birch and spruce forests, the clearings, the little lakes and the dazzlingly blue sky above everything.

Every single of his symphonies is a jewel. I love them. The one I love least is the most popular one - No.2.
Also the 'Voces intimae' quartet, En Saga, Tapiola, Oceanides and the Violin Concerto are real musts.


----------



## confuoco

Lisztfreak said:


> I don't know, for all the possible complaints about Sibelius' orchestration his music sounds to me like pure velvet. So rafined and so well-polished. He's got a special, unique sound that, after a few months of listening experience one cannot mistake for any other composer.


Absolutely right, I also don't understand complaints about orchestration of few composers, not only Sibelius (Schumann). Maybe sometimes it can be problem for conductors (generally, not for Sibelius - don't know), but...I think music would be boring if all composers were orchestrating in the way of Richard Strauss or Ravel.


----------



## Lisztfreak

True. Orchestration is an important part of a composer's musical profile. Some were better at it, some worse, but it's their special quality, no matter how masterful or not.

A question: are there any recordings out there of Sibelius conducting some of his works?


----------



## World Violist

There is only one that I know of: a radio broadcast that was recorded of Sibelius conducting his own _Andante Festivo_. It is said to be a remarkably intense reading, very slow (and I can partly vouch for that; it's played in part on the Christopher Nupen film on Sibelius). It was made in the 1930's, so the sound isn't so great, but this is one of those recordings where the music matters far more than the sound quality.


----------



## Lisztfreak

Thank you! I've always wondered about that.


----------



## Tapkaara

Good to see some familar faces here from another forum...

YES! Sibelius is one of the all-time greats! So happy to see his is appreciated in this forum.

I've been in other classical forums where people are not familair with his music or express distaste for him. This always frustrates me. Glad to see it's not the case here.


----------



## Matthew

I love Sibelius's no 7 and his Finlandia. When I was visiting finland recently everywhere you went they had these two playing songs playing. Such an amazing feel.


----------



## Ciel_Rouge

And which performances do you recommend for Finlandia in particular? I listened to Karajan's and it was pleasingly "Karajanish" but I also found a Finnish conductor, namely Sakari Oramo directing the Finnish Radio Symphony Orchestra and I have the impression that he had "got it" even better as far as the spirit of that piece is concerned. I was wondering if you would agree:


----------



## Marko

I've got a question I'm hoping someone may be able to help me here regarding Sibelius' music, specifically his romance opus 24 no. 9. I will be performing it soon and would like to be able to give some information about this piece to the audience. 
Many thanks.


----------



## Tapkaara

Ciel_Rouge said:


> And which performances do you recommend for Finlandia in particular? [/url]


My favorite performance of Finlandia is Karajan's with the Berliner Philharmonkier from 1977 on EMI. Herbie performs this piece as is it were a force of nature. Another great performance is with Osmo Vanska and the Lahti Symphony on the album Finland Awakes. Here, they do the orginal ending of Finlandia, which is quite dramatic. The playing/recording are excellent, as well.

A universally popular recording is Paavo Berglund with the Helsinki Phil from 1986.


----------



## Tapkaara

Marko said:


> I've got a question I'm hoping someone may be able to help me here regarding Sibelius' music, specifically his romance opus 24 no. 9. I will be performing it soon and would like to be able to give some information about this piece to the audience.
> Many thanks.


Opus 24, Ten Pieces for Piano, is part of Sibelius's often (and unfairly) disregarded piano oeuvre. It consists of ten movements, and they were written between 1894 and 1903.

The 9th movement, Romance, is usually the best know movement from this work.

Sibelius was not naturally inclined towards writing for the piano. He once declared that Chopin was the only composer who could write truly great pianomusic.

He wrote music for the piano out of financial need more than for personal artistic gratification. His piano works are often very tuneful and reletively easy to play, as they were intended for performance in people's homes. Again, this was for commercial reasons, other than purely artistic reasons.

Another interesting aspect of Sibelius's piano music is the use of the left hand. Sibelius's writing for this piano keeps the left hand quite busy to achieve a rich, dark tone in the music. It is often said Sibelius was thinking "orchestrally" when writing for piano, so in order to get a deep, orchestral sound, the left hand is busy in the lower octaves.

Hope that helps!


----------



## Marko

Many thanks Tapkaara, that helps. I must say I enjoy playing it. Its a pity he didnt write much for the piano really.


----------



## Tapkaara

Marko said:


> Many thanks Tapkaara, that helps. I must say I enjoy playing it. Its a pity he didnt write much for the piano really.


Au contraire!

Sibelius wrote quite a bit for the piano. There's a whole world for you to discover.

An excellent survey of Sibelius's complete piano music is available on the Naxos label. Seek out his complete piano works on that label; it is in 5 volumes. The pianist is Havard Gimse.

Two of his best know piano works are Kyllikki (based on Finnish mythology) and The Trees. These two works are, obviously, available on Naxos's complete cycle of Sibelius piano music and are played wonderfully by Mr. Gimse.


----------



## ErFurtwanglert

I am surprised no one has mentioned the Karelia Suite. Another great Sibelius piece, and very "Finnish" sounding. The Alla Marcia movement is probably my favorite Sibelius movement of all.


----------



## Tapkaara

The Karelia Suite is certainly among Sibelius's most universally popular works. Light and tuneful, it never fails to win over audiences in concert.

The third and final movement, Alla marcia, is definitely toe-tapping music.

An early work, it is worlds away from Sibelius later, more austere style. I would definitely recommend the Karelia Suite to anyone who wants to get to know this composer. After enjoying works such as this, Finlandia, En Saga and the Lemminkainen Suite, one should move to the symphonies.


----------



## ErFurtwanglert

Don't get me wrong, I love his symphonies as well, especially 2 and 7 and especially when Osmo Vanska is conducting, but there is something about that Alla Marcia that just gets me every time.


----------



## ecg_fa

I like most of Sibelius's music. Colin Davis & Boston Symph. for symphonies in 
particular. I have a couple albums of his songs (many in German) which are nice
too. Violin concerto I agree is one of best around.

Ed


----------



## Tapkaara

Well, there is no denying that Karelia's Alla marcia is a rousing piece!!!

Vanska is a great Sibelian, but I am sceptical of the much-admired Colin Davis. I find his reading of Sibelius to be way too tame. Vanska is good at keeping clarity throughout any score he conducts, but he can still infuse a certain amount of drive and gusto that makes his Sibelius among the best around.


----------



## confuoco

ErFurtwanglert said:


> I am surprised no one has mentioned the Karelia Suite. Another great Sibelius piece, and very "Finnish" sounding. The Alla Marcia movement is probably my favorite Sibelius movement of all.


As I feel some affection to all Sibelius works, honestly, IMHO Karelia Suite (especially Alla Marcia) is one of his worst work. Naive and formal, not work of the great value, I can compare it to Elgar's Pomp and Circumstance marches. I understand these tone poems played a big role in national consciousness, but I prefer to Sibelius' absolute music rather than program one (but of course I like also some his tone poems).


----------



## Tapkaara

I must completely disagree that the Karelia Suite is somehow throw away music, and this goes for the Pomp and Circumstance music too.

Naive and formal? I think this criticism is naive and formal.

Heaven forbid music be tuneful, light, and to the point. Why are people afraid to embrace music that fall easily on the ears, such as this music does? Should one be afraid of losing their "street cred" if the enjoy lighter, more popular orchestra fare?

With all due and honest respect, Confuoco, I think one should consider the context in which the Karelia music was orginally composed. It was music to accompany a patriotic pageant in Finland during the years of Tsarist rule. The pageant showcased moments in the history of the region of Karelia, which was located in southwestern Finland. (The Karelia region is now in Russia; Russian invaded and took it in World War II.) Karelia is a significant region in Finnish history because it is, in many ways, the cradle of Finnish culture. The national epic, the Kalevala, originated here, as well as many other musical, culinary traditions, etc.

Sibelius was asked to write music to accopany a series of staged scenes depicting important moments in the history fo the region. As this was, in essence, incidental music to live performances, the music should not be expected to be deep symphonic rhetoric. It is what it is; light, often attractive music which is meant to have popular appeal.

The well known suite in three movements only includes three numbers from a larger score. (The complete Karelia music is available on both the Ondine and Bis labels and both recordings are highly recommended.) Sibelius hand-picked what he considered to be the best three numbers from the complete score and sanctioned the performance of these pieces in his now famous Karelia Suite.

Sibelius was obviously a composer of astounding intellect and mastery, as seen in many of his tone poems and certainly in his set of 7 symphonies. But he also had a talent for writing on the lighter side, as seen in the Karelia Suite, his Scenes historiques, King Christian II, Swanwhite, etc. While the Karelia Suite may not bear the cerebral weight of, say, Sibelius's 4th symphony, I think it is patently unfair to dismiss Karelia as nonsense.

Seeing that you are probably a Brahms admirer, Confuoco, should we call the Hungarian Dances naive and formal exoticism? Vulgar pop music to please the masses?

Long story short, you are certainly allowed to say that you like Sibelius, you don't like him...you like his 7th symphony but do not like his 1st...you like Tapiola but you do not care for the Karelia music, etc. But, as an ardent Sibelian, I feel that I must object to your comments which I find very unfair, and perhaps a little insulting.

I'm not looking to pick an internet "everyone's a tough guy in front of his laptop" fight here, and I will not engage in such activities. But Sibelius is an artist whom I deeply love, and I feel I must defend his artistic integrity with more than just a little vehemence.


----------



## confuoco

Tapkaara said:


> With all due and honest respect, Confuoco, I think one should consider the context in which the Karelia music was orginally composed.


All things you described I had on my mind, when I wrote, that these works and other patriotic tone poems "played a role in Finish national consciousness", or maybe I should say national movement. I understand these circumstances, but maybe that's the reason why I prefer to absolute music, because program music is often related to some facts and events that are not actual for me today. I have some notes to this issue:

1. I don't know if you know work _Wellington's Victory_ by Beethoven. It is composed by giant but it is totally banal and uninteresting work, describing (even with imitativeness) the concrete military battle. That's why probably the most of listeners today don't know this work, because it is just disapeared from the repertoire (although in time of the origin it was just sensation) to make space for better works.

2. One of my personal characteristic is crtitical thinking and critical approach...it is that kind of aproach, that has selected repertoir works from huge amount of music ever written. I don't know why some people on this forum (which I like very much, by the way) react so sharply to any criticism. Please allow me to be sincere and not pharisaical.

3. If you are asking for Brahms' Hungarian Dances, yes I consider it among his least significant works...maybe you know that Brahms himself refused to give them opus numbers, because in his perception it was more transcription than composition. I have another problem...often I ask myself if it isn't pity that the most of people know only these Hungarian Dances and not more sofisticated and more worthy Brahms' works. There is a lot of examples of this kind in music.

4. I have nothing against more "superficial" or heart-lighted music. For example I admire some works of Francis Poulenc. I have nothing against popular pieces, often some work is popular and very good as well. But one should take measure of some piece in context of all composer's works. I think Sibelius belongs among composers with any bigger oscilating level of works. Just few days ago you wrote here not very praisful notes about his piano music.

5. And at last, *PLEASE*, for all of you, try to distinguish between *"I like it"* and *"it is good"*. I think many people are not able to do it, and that's why is so difficult for them to tolerate some criticism of their favorite work. I love a lot of "not so good" works and I haven't problem to admit it. And then there are some masterwork, that just can't touch me.

If somebody likes Karelia Suite the most from all music ever written, I accept it. But still I am sure, in context of Sibelius works and also in context of all classical music, that Karelia Suite, now and today, in regard to music qualities and not circumstances, isn't piece of the greate value. But I didn't "dismiss it as nonsense". Sure sometimes I listen to it and even enjoy it. But if I would present it as a masterwork...it would be just tort for works as Symphony No. 7 and many others.


----------



## Tapkaara

Fair enough!


----------



## Kuhlau

For those who don't flit between classical music forums in the way that I do, there's a fledgling discussion about recordings of Sibelius' Third Symphony going on here, begun by yours truly. 

FK


----------



## Tapkaara

Today, December 8, is Sibelius's birthday.

We should all listen to a Sibelius work in his honor.


----------



## SPR

OK, I took a crack at it - since I happened to pick up a CD of his last week.

I must preface my comments by saying that my brain is currently fully and completely engaged in the classical and baroque periods, and have never really sampled any of Sibelius' work and have not warmed up yet to many other 20th century works I have heard.

http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Tone...=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1228836036&sr=1-3









tracks:
Luonnotar,Op.70
En saga,Op.9
Night-Ride And Sunrise,Op.55
The Oceanides,Op.73
King Christian II Suite,Op.27 i:Nocturne
King Christian II Suite,Op.27 ii:Elegie
King Christian II Suite,Op.27 iii:Musette
King Christian II Suite,Op.27 iv:Serenade
King Christian II Suite,Op.27 v:Ballade
Karelia Overture, Op. 10
Karelia Suite, Op. 11 - Intermezzo
Karelia Suite, Op. 11 - Ballade
Karelia Suite, Op. 11 - Alla Marcia
Lemminkäinen Suite, Op. 22 - Swan Of Tuonela
Finlandia, Op. 26
Pohjola's Daughter, Op. 49
The Bard, Op. 64
Scènes Historiques #1, Op. 25 - Festivo
5 Songs, Op. 37 - First Kiss
7 Runeberg Songs, Op. 13 - Spring Is Flying
5 Songs, Op. 37 - Maiden's Tryst
6 Songs, Op. 36 - Black Roses

Anyway... Im am not yet seriously interested in vocal pieces, so thought I would try out 'King Christian II' op 27.

Interesting. I continually got the impression that I was listening to a musical score for a movie (sorry. That may make some of you gnash your teeth), or something with a fairly detailed narrative and was repeatedly wondering what the story actually was? Some of it reminded me vaguely of some soaring romantic orchestrations. Overall I thought it was lovely. I think I feel a little bit lost since the structure or organization of the 5 pieces which seems a little more like 'free verse' rather than the 'iambic pentameter' of a classical symphonic piece if I may draw a loose analogy.

I need to spend a little time listening to this, but first impression is favorable - which I think is an achievement for me.


----------



## Tapkaara

SPR, I hope that you will come to enjoy the music of Sibelius. I, too, have that very CD and there is some good stuff on it!

You said KING CHRISTIAN sounded like film music. It is actually music which originally accompanied a play about the Danish king of the same name. It is by no means a symphony nor is it intended to have a certain amount of inter-connected themes; it is simply a concert suite of selections from the greater score. It is light, refreshing Sibelius and it is a far cry from his heavier, more rugged works.

Sibelius was fecund as a composer of vocal music, and he wrote many great songs. I know that these songs will not always be everyone's cup of tea, but if you give yourself the change to really absorb them, they may yield many rewards.


----------



## Habib

*Sibelius & his critics*



confuoco said:


> 5. And at last, *PLEASE*, for all of you, try to distinguish between *"I like it"* and *"it is good"*. I think many people are not able to do it, and that's why is so difficult for them to tolerate some criticism of their favorite work. I love a lot of "not so good" works and I haven't problem to admit it. And then there are some masterwork, that just can't touch me.
> 
> I think the position of Sibelius will remain controversial due to what's hinted at by Confuoco above. So many people like his music, yet experts sometimes don't rate it highly. Here's an excerpt of what was written about some of this on Wikipedia:
> 
> "Because of its alleged conservatism, Sibelius' music is sometimes considered insufficiently complex, but he was immediately respected by even his more progressive peers. Later in life he was championed by critic Olin Downes, who wrote a biography, but he was attacked by composer-critic Virgil Thomson.
> 
> Sibelius has sometimes been criticized as a reactionary or even incompetent figure in 20th century classical music. In 1938 Theodor Adorno wrote a critical essay about the composer, notoriously charging that
> 
> *' If Sibelius is good, this invalidates the standards of musical quality that have persisted from Bach to Schoenberg: the richness of inter-connectedness, articulation, unity in diversity, the 'multi-faceted' in 'the one'.'*
> 
> Composer and theorist René Leibowitz went so far as to describe Sibelius as "the worst composer in the world" in the title of a 1955."
> 
> So what do people think? His music is definitely very tonal, especially when compared to the later generation of composers like Stravinsky, Bartok and Hindemith. I suppose one cannot say that his style did not change at all - the symphonies make a progression from the Tchaikovsky-like quality of the 1st the the much more sparse and compact 7th.
> 
> I personally prefer his more personal works, like the Symphonies Nos. 4 & 7, to the 'national monument' works like Symphonies Nos. 2 & 5, Finlandia or Lemminkainen or Karelia Suites. He seems to have had different personas when composing. Another interesting fact is that he was virtually silent for the last 30 years of his life, not composing any major works after the 1920s. It seems as if he had reached the peak of what he could do stylistically, and didn't want to repeat himself. Fair enough, but the body of work he left behind is pretty significant, even though it might be a mixed bag.


----------



## Tapkaara

First of all, Adorno and Leibowitz were obviously very vocal against SIbelius's music, but I think it is safe to say that history has proven them wrong is their assesment of this man's music. How many know the name Adorno or Leibowitz, but how many people know the name Sibelius? Whether you like Sibelius or not, there is no doubting his important contributions to 20th century music, and he is clearly not the worst composer in the world!

Sibelius certainly evolved over his career, and his 7 symphonies are a clear indication of this. Everyone has their favorites, and in a way, it's almost shameful to admit you like either his 1st or 2nd, due to their full embrace of the Romantic/nationalist idiom. No one seems to chide Tchikovsky for his full-throated Romantic stylings, so I think it's unfair to put Sibelius down for dipping his toes into the same waters as Tchaikovsky or other such composers.

Sibelius's "silence" for the last 30 years of his life is a sort of half-truth. True, he did not write anything "major" during his last three decades, but he was not necessarily silent, either. He did pen smaller scale works, including some truly terrific pieces for violin and piano. He also did a lot of arranging of older works. And, perhaps most importantly, during this time, he was writing and perhaps finished his elusive 8th Symphony, which is generally believed to have been burned by the compose at some point in the 1940s.

I do not agree that Sibelius's music is a "mixed bag;" at least, I think this could be said of many composers, not just Sibelius. 

Clearly, it's hard to compare a work like his Karelia Suite against, say, his 4th Symphony and say "Which is better?" It's a real case of apples and oranges. I think all "important" or "serious" composers are allowed their forays into the world of light music. Sibelius is no exception.


----------



## World Violist

I tend to think Sibelius is more readily able to be related to when he isn't being a grand Romantic. The works of his that I like the most are all in his less grand style: the 3rd, 4th, 6th, and 7th symphonies, Pohjola's Daughter, Tapiola, and so on. Admittedly, Pohjola's Daughter comes closest to being in the grand romantic vein, but it is still not as full-blooded as, say the 2nd symphony.

I think a word must be thrown in for Kullervo. I think this is written in the true late-Romantic vein. It is very personal, at least I think, and the large orchestration doesn't impede this. It's rather like Mahler's 2nd symphony in its overall framework, yes, but the subject matter and tone of it all is very purely Sibelius. It is very like the 1st symphony. But I still have a lot of trouble calling it a purely late-Romantic piece of music. I feel as though this belongs among the select group (such as Sibbe's 1st symphony) that, while sounding of a particular style, is removed from that style by the irreplaceable presence that is Sibelius. Even the 2nd symphony--which has the least "stylistic dilution," if you will--has at least some of the Sibelian-ness about it. This I think is what makes Adorno and Leibowitz so wrong: with such a powerful presence in every one of his major works, how could he be a "bad" composer? And to say he was the worst composer is utterly absurd. I mean, there are plenty of horrible composers to begin with. But this claim is made even more absurd in that it is only these two mens' _opinions_. It doesn't do either of them any good to publish such an outlandish claim.

I dunno. It's getting later; I'm rambling.


----------



## ErFurtwanglert

I gotta say, I love the second and the seventh symphonies, but that fourth symphony always makes me extremely depressed whenever I listen to it...then again, maybe that's the intent?


----------



## jamzky

I don't so much like the fourth, I don't know it so well. The 6th I love and like Tapiola just so deeply connected to the Finnish landscape, just takes me there.


----------



## Tapkaara

The 4th is not easy music. It's certainly strange, and people are often a little confused after they hear it for the first time. When it was first premiered in 1911 it was declared to be very modern. The Vienna Phil even refused to play it. People just did not know what to make of it.

Today, it retains an air of mystery for many, and it is certainly one of the master's least immediately accessible works. I think it requires several listenings before one can really begin to crack its peculiar code.


----------



## Habib

*Comparing Sibelius*

I agree that the fourth is a great work. It seems to be about his struggle with alcohol and depression. I like how in the last movement he begins with some very banal upbeat tunes, but then it returns to the slow and grave passages from earlier.

I think it is somewhat unfair to compare composers, but if we do compare him to composers of his generation, like Janacek, Debussy, and Mahler he does seem less of an innovator. Although by the same token, you can't say he was a conservative. Those composers took you to so many different mindscapes and landscapes, whereas Sibelius' music seems to be rooted in his native country (especially the tone poems). I think he was at his best when he broke free from the confines of expressing this kind of national aesthetic, and expressed his own feelings more directly in his music. This is more apparent in the symphonies, and I suppose No. 4 is a good example of a more biographical work.


----------



## Tapkaara

Habib said:


> I think it is somewhat unfair to compare composers, but if we do compare him to composers of his generation, like Janacek, Debussy, and Mahler he does seem less of an innovator. Although by the same token, you can't say he was a conservative. Those composers took you to so many different mindscapes and landscapes, whereas Sibelius' music seems to be rooted in his native country (especially the tone poems). I think he was at his best when he broke free from the confines of expressing this kind of national aesthetic, and expressed his own feelings more directly in his music. This is more apparent in the symphonies, and I suppose No. 4 is a good example of a more biographical work.


Sibelius was not much of an innovator? I cannot disagree more.

In terms of innovation, I might put Debussy ahead of Sibelius, but just slightly. Debussy really forged the path of Impressionism, which had hitherto really never existed (as far as I know). To basically create a new movement in music I would say is very innovative.

Janacek? I would not say he was more innovative than Sibelius. I would call his music more idiosyncratic than "innovative." I'm not sure he deserves that moniker.

Here's the one that will be sure to stir the pot. I do not think of Mahler as particularly innovtive either, just idiosyncratic. Mahler was very much rooted in 19th century Romanticism and his music has that sound. Ok, so he wrote massive 80 minute symphonies and did experiment with changing/ambiguous keys and all that kind of stuff, but aside from that, unless I am sorely missing something, what trailblazing did Mahler really do? (I do enjoy Mahler, by the way, so I am by no means bashing him.)

Sibelius is somewhat often (and incredibly unjustly) labelled as notning more than a late-Romantic "regional" nationalist. Ok, many of his works do have a late Romantic sound and the nationalism in his oevre cannot be denied. Finlandia is good example of this, as are his various tone poems based on the Finnish national epic The Kalevala.

But so much of his output really has nothing to do with overt nationalism. What about his first three symphonies? These are very "Finnish," folk inflected works, aren't they? Isn't his 2nd a great Finnish Independence Symphony. No, no and no.

There is not folk music used in any of Sibelius's symphonies. Nor are the programmatic. While his works may bring to mind fridid fjords (there are no fjords in Finland, by the way), windswept winterscapes with snow, dead trees and an aurora borealis, Sibelius did not build any of this into his symphonies, which are pure works of absolutel music. How many of you know that the winter wonderland images you get when listening to his 2nd have an Italian origin...he wrote his 2nd at a villa in Rapallo, Italy! If anythingt, I'd think he would have been inspired by Mediterranean sun and wine while writing this work, since it was surrounding him at the time.

With the exception of his first two or three symphonies, I belive he really started doing interesting things starting with the 4th, and what he started doing is, what I would consider to be, innovative.

I could go on and on about the use of the tritone in the 4th, his linking of two movements together without break in the 5th which would later cumulate with a symphony in one organic, continuous movement in the 7th, etc. as example of his "fresh thinking" as to what a symphony should sound like. Had anything ever sounded like the 4th when he wrote it in 1911? I can't think of anything off the top of my head.

Even folk legend-inspired tone poems have little to do MUSICALLY with their programmatic origins. OK, Pohjola's Daughter is a tone poem about e meeting betweeen Vainamoinen and the maiden of the North Land. But, where in this muic do we he hear liting Finnish waltzes or imitations on kanteles? Nowhere. Without a program, this could stand almost as a mini symophony due to its organic cohesion. Same can be said for Tapiola. This is based on the realm of the forest god in Finnish mythology. Again, where do we here nationalistic folk music? Nowhere. This is music with a nordic program, to be sure, but in purely musical terms, it's strange monothematic nature and striking orchestration raise it quite a level of musical creativity.

Mahler's symphonies are certainly more ethno-centric than Sibelius's. The insertion of a ländler? Use of klezmer music? Should Mahler be labled more as a "regionalist?"

Long story short, Habib, I am by no means attacking you...I am happy as can be that you consider yourself a fan of Sibelius. And I have nothing against people out there that genuinly do not like his music. But being fair and giving credit where credit is due is always in order, and I want to do a little standing up for Sibelius.

By the way, I would also say that Schonberg was an innovater...again...he pioneered a whole movement in music. But I cannot stand his music. So, I can credit him, but that does not mean I have to like him.


----------



## Habib

Tapkaara said:


> I could go on and on about the use of the tritone in the 4th, his linking of two movements together without break in the 5th which would later cumulate with a symphony in one organic, continuous movement in the 7th, etc. as example of his "fresh thinking" as to what a symphony should sound like. Had anything ever sounded like the 4th when he wrote it in 1911? I can't think of anything off the top of my head.
> 
> By the way, I would also say that Schonberg was an innovater...again...he pioneered a whole movement in music. But I cannot stand his music. So, I can credit him, but that does not mean I have to like him.


You make some interesting points Tapkaara. I am familiar with Sibelius' 7th but I just didn't stop to think how innovative it was, being made up of one continuous movement. I suppose he was innovative in his own way. As I said, it is unfair to compare, but I was trying to compare him to composers of the same generation. I agree with you about Debussy and Shonberg - these men opened up whole new avenues for music. But neither Sibelius, nor Janacek or Mahler had any schools of thought associated with them, anyone that really continued the styles they had established, but this does not mean their music is of less value. Some of the most interesting composers where people who combined a number of influences to produce their art. You allude to Sibelius' 4th Symphony. Well I think the same could be said of some of Janacek's and Mahler's works. They all had something new and interesting to say.


----------



## Tapkaara

As far as "schools of thought" applying to Mahler, Sibelius and Janacek, I suppose late-Romantic is the one that is used the most, and perhaps it works. I would CERTAINLY apply this to Mahler. He is indeed the arch late-Romantic, perhaps POST-Romantic. But Romantic fits Mahler very well, I think, because he personified the romantic read: EMOTIONAL aspect of music that the likes of Schubert and Mendelssohn sought to do at the dawn of the movement. Has ANY composer ever worn his heart on his sleeve like Mahler?

Sibelius's music is much less emotional to me. It seems more concerned with expressing itself, not the feelings of the composer. In this way, I feel Sibelius and Stravinsky are close. Wasn't it Stravinksy who even said something along the lines of "Music cannot express anything but itself?" Of course, I paraphrase.

While an overt emotionalism may be lacking in Sibelius, that is not to say his art cannot elicit strong emotions, positive or otherwise!


----------



## World Violist

I think the discussion on Mahler in this thread is very important. As a Mahler nut in a way, I must agree with Tapkaara on all levels with his statements regarding both Mahler and Sibelius (though Janacek I must back away from, as I know little to none of his creative output). Mahler was the supreme late romantic; however, he is outdone in almost every way as far as innovation goes. The meandering keys are far surpassed in originality by Wagner (not to mention the sheer length of Mahler's symphonic cycle is not dissimilar to that of Wagner's Ring cycle), whom Mahler practically worshiped. The use of klezmer music, military marches/fanfares, and landler dances are VERY Germanic, and while not conventionally used are still the most overtly German music that can be immediately thought of. His expressive nature in music is legendary, even infamous in some circles. That being said, I just think he took what was available and stretched it out to the very limits. Nothing particularly innovative in that: Bach did pretty much the same thing with the Baroque era, though far more perfectly and beautifully than did Mahler.

That said, Sibelius' expressive nature is not found in the nature of the works, but rather in the nature of the listener. If one listens to a work of Sibelius, there is no blatant emotion like the overwhelming joy at the end of Mahler's 8th, or the pain and intense sorrow that permeates the 6th, or the resignation of his 9th. It is pure, not blatantly emotional. It's like seeing the ocean for the first time, in a way. The ocean does not have emotions, but it can easily elicit intense emotions for those who allow it to.


----------



## Tapkaara

My God, Violist, you summed up my feelings PERFECTLY. I absolutely love your post. I think you are right on the money.

I love your ocean analogy...I have a feeling I will be quoting it at some point in the future!

I think the ocean analogy works very well for Sibelius. I see/hear his music as an acient force of nature; as such, it does indeed have the power to excite and overwhelm your emotional state, though what you are getting worked up about may not be all that emotional in and of itself. See Violist, I am already paraphrasing you!


----------



## Habib

I've just borrowed a CD of Shostakovich's Symphonies Nos. 5 & 9 from the library and upon listening to the 5th, I think it is (in parts) indebted to Mahler, particularly in the slow movement and the finale. So I think Mahler did make a big impact on later symphonic composers like Shostakovich. I think violist's ocean analogy applies to Shostakovich's Symphony No.4 which has three movements, two of them almost half an hour. Its a very rich, complex and layered work, comparable to some of Mahler's instrumental symphonies. And I also need to mention how Mahler expanded our concept of the symphony by writing a number with chorus and vocal soloists. In a way, he was broadening what Beethoven did in his ninth. This expansion of the symphony strongly contrasts with Sibelius' paring down of the symphonic form. I agree with Tapkaara, his music expresses less raw emotions than say Mahler. I suppose both approaches are equally valid. Even though it might seem a contradiction, contemporary composer Penderecki has written both single movement symphonies and multi movement ones with chorus and soloists. Interesting how the present day concept of a symphony can include both the approaches of Mahler and Sibelius.


----------



## Tapkaara

Well, ever since Sibelius and Mahler had that now-famous discussion on "what makes a symphony," the two have almost because arch rivals, at least in the minds of their respective admirers and detractors.

It's almost as if one must be a Sibelian OR a Mahlerian. This is not necessary; one can be both...or I suppose neither. At the end of the day, who really cares what makes a good symphony, what makes a BETTER symphony, etc? If the music means something special to you, that's all that matters.


----------



## World Violist

As regards the whole "Mahlerian vs. Sibelian" thing, I never really cared to label myself as either. Or rather, if forced to label myself, I would do so as both, but not one or the other, which to me is somewhat awkward. The little quirk is that not until rather recently have I been able to actually listen to both Sibelius and Mahler within the same day. I mean this seriously. They are so utterly different that, even though I feel equally at home with both, listening to one right after the other almost makes me feel physically uncomfortable.

There are composers, though, who are far more comfortable in both worlds, and one I would do well to mention (as I have several times already) is Edmund Rubbra. Since I have listened to his symphonic output in greater detail and actually thought about it more, I feel it is a good idea to rethink what he is. It's very interesting, listening to his music and trying to point out all the references to Sibelius--as there are many--... but what about Mahler? It's even more interesting to try and point out both, even within the same symphony. With Rubbra's Ninth, for instance, one finds very strong reminiscences of Mahler's Eighth, what with titled characters (the text is taken from the New Testament of the Bible), choruses, almost narrative-like stretches, the utter sense of mysticism, etc. The resemblances to Sibelius are far more striking at a far more fundamental level: his last two symphonies are each in one movement, and each play for about 10-15 minutes. Other than that, there is a lot of organic development, ideas springing up seemingly from nowhere out of previous melodic cells. Very Sibelian. But entirely Rubbra's own stuff.

I still don't feel I've penetrated Rubbra's style as much as I could, but it's becoming clearer. His Mahlerian traits aren't the hysterical, but rather the mystical, the religious that many people seem just to dismiss when coming to Mahler. That, I believe, is the tying point between Mahler and Sibelius in a very loose way. Both could express emotion in their distinct ways, but their clear, pure, direct road to what is beyond the notes is very much in common between the two (though once again, their devices and means to achieve this end are as different as possible, but that really hardly matters).

Haha, I keep on rambling in this thread. I hope SOMEONE can make sense of all this...


----------



## Tapkaara

Many often label Mahler as a mystic and I have a heard time with this, personally. I find very little "mysticism" in his output, at least in comparison to Sibelius. Mahler's idiom is more direct than Sibelius I think, and is probably more readily accessible to many. Sibelius is the mystic here, his music often sounding like some sort of strange code, or something.


----------



## World Violist

Tapkaara said:


> Many often label Mahler as a mystic and I have a heard time with this, personally. I find very little "mysticism" in his output, at least in comparison to Sibelius. Mahler's idiom is more direct than Sibelius I think, and is probably more readily accessible to many. Sibelius is the mystic here, his music often sounding like some sort of strange code, or something.


I find Mahler as one who is always reaching for a sort of mysticism in his work. I mean, his first seven or so symphonies are all very direct and loud, but with the Eighth I think we see his mystical side beginning to really show through. There are some parts of that which are almost impressionistic here, but they aren't quite so sensual, more on the side of being not quite reality in the physical sense. I at any rate don't readily label Mahler as the true, full Romantic as I have earlier in this thread. It depends on what ears I listen with.


----------



## tahnak

*Pohjola's Daughter*

I was listening to Pohjola's Daughter yesterday on 78s with Serge Kousevitzky and the Boston Philharmonic. It sounded great even on the vintage.
There is nothing that Sibelius wrote that is not significant.
He had a truly remarkable individual style.


----------



## Tapkaara

While EVERY composer has juvenilia or lesser works, I am inclined to agree with you, Tahnak. Sibelius was a composer who wrote many signifcant works. And, he had a very individual style which, in my view, makes him one of the most unique composers.

But, that very uniqueness, I'm afraid, also alienates him sometimes. There are indeed folks who just don't get him, or do not like him. To an extent, I understand this. His music is so singular that it's not gonna be everyone's cup of tea.


----------



## JTech82

Sibelius is my favorite classical composer period. I find Sir Colin Davis' interpretations of his symphonies with the BSO to be some of the best on record. I'm just now starting to get into his concertos. I find his symphonies to be some of the most amazing pieces of music I ever heard.

Speaking of Nordic composers, I love Nielsen's work as well. Very underrated composer that not many people talk about. Nielsen's symphonies are beautiful as are his concertos for violin, clarinet, and flute.


----------



## Tapkaara

JTech, welcome to the discusion.

I am so ahppy to see you say that Sibelius if your favorite composer. I have two favorites, and he is one of them for me. May I say, you have excellent taste! 

Sibelius's symphonies are truly great. But you mentioned you were geting into his concertos. Sibelius only wrote one concerto, and it is for violin. It's one of the most performes violin concertos of the 20th century.

I'm also active on the Sibelius Forum. Hope to see you there!!


----------



## JTech82

Thanks Tapkaara for welcoming me.

I have a question I own the older Philips with the BSO releases of the Sibelius symphonies conducted by Sir Colin Davis, who I consider the best interpreter of his work, but I have heard that Davis and the LSO released a new set of his symphonies.

Do you own this newer box set on RCA? I heard it sounds a lot better, but I'm not sure if it's as passionate as those on the Philips label.

By the way, who's your other favorite composer?


----------



## World Violist

I have the second half of Davis' Boston Sibelius cycle, and I was never entirely convinced by it. I have always found stronger interpretations of these symphonies elsewhere: Segerstam for 1 and 5, Vanska for 3 and 6, Karajan for 4 (the older the better), just about anybody else for 7 (I'm dead serious on this one)... but all this is just a matter of taste. 

I've heard a lot of really bad things about Davis' more recent excursions of the Sibelius symphonies. They have apparently gotten blander as Davis gets older. And, indeed, one of the main criticisms is exactly as you had feared: that he is becoming less involved in the music, less passionate and driven.


----------



## Tapkaara

My other favorite composer is Akira Ifukube. YOu can read about him at this site: www.akiraifukube.org ...I am the webmaster 

I have the complete Davis/Boston cycle. This one is often considered to be the be all and end all Sibelius cycle. I disagree. Davis is generally, in my opinion, a very "bland" conductor (at least in this cycle) and he peppers English restraint and tact all over the scores. This is not an ideal approach for Sibelius's music. This works well, I think, in his readings of the 3rd and 6th but the other syphonies are rather "epic," and they need an interpretation that is appropriate.

Now in Davis's Boston S5, it sounds great right up until the Swan theme in the final movement...the brass sounds so distant; it is indeed muffled by the strings. Sorry, but the whole damn symphony is a build up to that very moment and he holds back. (I guess he didn;t want the brass section to wake up the neighbors.)

I'm actually in the middle of collecting Davis's new LSO cycle, and my feedback is mostly positive. His reading of the 5th on that label is actually a rival to Segerstam's mighty reading on Ondine. Funny thing with this recording, though..Sir Colin is heard humming through certain bits and, if it wasnt for his vibrating vocal chords, this could have been a perfect recording of the work.

I have not heard his "Middle Cycle" of Sibelius symphonies, but I hear nothing bad bad reviews on these, so I'm in no hurry.


----------



## JTech82

I'm glad I own the early Colin Davis recordings from the 70s. I find those probably some of the most enjoyable Sibelius I've heard. I guess I prefer the restraint and coolness of Sir Colin Davis to Jarvi's, Karajan's, and Bernstein's over-the-top interpretations of his symphonies. I still find Colin Davis to be the best interpreter of Sibelius, but also of Berlioz. But this is just my opinion and opinions differ.

I have not heard of Akirai Fukube, so thanks for mentioning his name. From the looks of his name, he must be Japanese. I'll have to check him out.

I'm pretty content with my classical collection, though I'm always expanding it, but I'm pretty adamant on my stance regarding Colin Davis. I think he deserves much more credit for those '70s recordings. I'm sure you could go for the more robust sounds Bernstein, Karajan, or even John Barbirolli, but for my money I would rather hear Davis do these symphonies than anybody else. He had just the right amount of power and restraint and these symphonies seem to be more lyrical with him.

Also a quick note about my own view of classical music, it's whatever you like. Some people like Bernstein's versions of Schumann's symphonies, some people like George Szell's, I like both of them for different reasons. None is better than the other one. It's all depending on what YOU hear in the composer. I view Sibelius as a calm, laid-back, but troubled man who loved nature. What I hear in Davis' interpretations are totally different to the ones that you hear. I like the cold, brooding Sibelius and this is why I like the old Davis recordings with the Boston Symphony. Beautiful, absolutely gorgeous music.

Another one of my favorite composers is Bruckner. I prefer Eugen Jochum's interpretations more than any other conductor's. These recordings resonated with me.

Again, it's all a matter of what you hear and what you feel in your heart. Nobody is right or wrong. The music paper reads only one way. It's up to the conductor to determine how best to get that music off the paper and into the listener's heart.


----------



## Tapkaara

Sibelius was truly a man who loved nature. But to call him "calm" is painting with a rather broad brush.

Sibelius started his composing career as a writer of chamber music, in the light and airy tradition of Haydn. Suddenly, he exploded ontot he scene with his epic Kullervo, a symphonic poem in 5 movements. This work brims with barbaric passion that only a young man could have conceived. Certainly, Sibelius's early works were very "youthful" in their wild and primal expression.

As he aged, he indeed calmed. Compare his 7th symphony to his 1st. The progression form one to the other is rather astoudning.

So, if you enjoy Sir Colin's readings of the 7 symphonies, more power to you. I'm just pleased that you love Sibelius's music at all!


----------



## JTech82

Again, nobody is right or wrong in their interpretations. It's all a matter of whose approach you like more and for me Davis' Sibelius is nostalgic and still one of the best I've ever heard. Davis provides a beautiful logic, coolness, and power to these readings. For me, he goes beyond the sheet music, but that's just my opinion.

I don't look at who did the best versions of the symphonies. That's the game most classical people play and I don't play it. I go by consistency of performances. You may not like the performance say Kubelik did of Mahler's symphonies, but there's certainly a consistency there without question. All orchestras make mistakes, all conductors make mistakes. Nobody is perfect and neither are a composer's compositions. They have their faults as well.

So while it may be cool for other people to pick apart each other's favorite symphonies, I look at the big picture and make a valid judgement based on three things 1. emotional impact on me, 2. sound of the recording, and 3. the consistency of the conductor and orchestra.

For better or for worse, this is how I evaluate classical music. If it moves me, then I like it, if it doesn't, then I don't like it. It's that simple. Music isn't supposed to be over analysized to death. It's supposed to be enjoyed.

In the words of Duke Ellington: "There's two kinds of music, there's the good kind, and then there's the other kind."

Sibelius is still my favorite composer next is Bruckner, Nielsen, Shostakovich, Prokofiev, and Bartok.


----------



## Tapkaara

Don't get me wrong Jtech, I'm not bashing you for liking Davis's Boston cycle. It's not my cycle of choice, but what I like and what I don't like should have no bearing on what YOU enjoy! Again, the fact that you are obviously a devout Sibelian makes me very happy.

By the way, us Sibelians have a favorite hangout on the web:

www.sibelius.forumup.com

Come join us...


----------



## JTech82

You see here's something else. I enjoy Eugen Jochum's interpretations of Bruckner, especially when viewed as a symphony cycle, which as you probably know he did two one for EMI and the other for DG, I like the one on DG better. It did more for me, but some people like the one on EMI better. It's all a matter of what you like.

I don't really pay much attention to criticism that much. My philosophy is if the conductor is good and the orchestra is top-notch and the performances mean something to me musically, then I will enjoy them. I point to Kubelik's Mahler symphony cycle as proof of this.

Again, Sibelius is a very underrated composer that's open to interpretation by a lot of different conductors. Karajan did some good Sibelius stuff as did Jurvi. It's just a matter of opening your mind to different views of this composer.


----------



## JTech82

What would you say the best Sibelius symphony cycle box set is? Barbirolli, Rattle, Maazel, Berglund? We can leave Colin Davis out, we know you don't like him...lol.


----------



## Tapkaara

This is a hard one, almost impossible to answer.

I like Maazel's cycle, though it is generally not well regarded by many Sibelians. Segerstam's Ondine cycle is nearly perfect, except for a very tired and timid 2nd. Vanska's is excellent in quality over all, but I prefer Maazel and Segerstam, Not saying Vanska is a slouch, he's perhaps just a shade "cooler" than the other two in term of his approach. I like my Sibelius with a little more fire and vehemence.

Berglund's Sibelius does not register too much with me, though his inaugural recording of Kullervo, probably, still the gold standard.


----------



## JTech82

Yeah, I've been looking at the Maazel cycle and heard it has that "umph" that these symphonies need. What about Barbirolli's readings of these symphonies do that have that passion, fire, and intensity?

I'll probably go with the Maazel set, but I would like to hear your comments about Barbirolli's readings.


----------



## Tapkaara

Believe it or not, I am not very familiar with Barbirolli's Sibelius, though I know it is popular. I do have a copy of Barbirolli's famous reading of the 2nd on the Chesky record label. In this recording, he indeed adds much oomph, just as Maazel does. Maazel's 2nd is my personal favorite recording of my favorite Sibelius symphony.

Maazel's cycle is controversial; to admit you like it is almost admitting to killing your grandmother. I suppose if you like your Sibelius to be very cool and icy, Maazel is not for you. Maazel adds a rough edge to the music, which I think is very appropriate. Sibelius was a nature composer and nature influenced him. Nature, last time I checked is a little rough, a little wild and perhaps a little terrifying. Maazel seems to understand this well, in a way that other conductors do not.


----------



## JTech82

Alright, I must admit something. I went back and listened to those old Davis Sibelius cycles and it about put me to sleep! What was he thinking! Davis does NOT know Sibelius!

I'm still fairly new to Sibelius, but I know that his symphonies need passion, fire, but also the conductor needs to know when to play it cool. Critics have argued that the Barbirolli readings on EMI with the Halle Orchestra are some of the best ever recorded, but I'm just not sure.

What is your take on all of this?


----------



## Tapkaara

Wow, what a quick turn around on your opinion of Davis....! 

As I mentioned, I m not familiar with Barbirolli/Halle, but I do have a recording of him conducting the Royal Philharmonic on Chesky. This is a great performance and if his readings with Halle are as good as this one, they will be very good indeed!


----------



## JTech82

As I mentioned, I'm still new to Sibelius, so I'm still unsure of my final analysis of Colin Davis' Sibelius. I think I'm going to have to warm up to his interpretations.

I will checkout out Maazel and Barbirolli, but right now I'm going to give these Davis another chance.

There are many symphonies you don't like the first time you hear them and these are the first time I heard them by Davis, so I will just give him another chance. I think his execution is flawless though of these symphonies. What he may lack in fire, he makes up for technically and a cooler more refined attitude. I think the problem is with the climaxes. He doesn't quite make the climaxes on a few of these symphonies like I would have liked to hear, but handles the more quieter parts beautifully.

Nature is a very uncertain force. No question about it, but it is also a force that has moments of breathless beauty.

A good conductor knows when to reach a climax, but also knows when to play it cool on the quiet parts, but still hold interest.


----------



## JTech82

I decided to go with the Jarvi with the Gothenburg Orchestra box set with the Tone Poems as well. I listened to audio samples of the entire thing and was truly impressed with it. Jarvi KNOWS Sibelius' music as does the Gothenburg Orchestra.

I'm happy with my purchase.


----------



## JTech82

I also want to point out that I think it's important to note that every conductor feels something different about a composer. I found Jarvi's and so far Davis' to be completely different, but both are valid interpretations. You may not necessarily like the way a certain conductor displays the notes on the sheet music, but if the conductor is honest and not about showing his ego, then I think we can all agree that we like what we like and there's substitution for great music.

It's much like in jazz music, which is what I really know more about because I own around 5,000 jazz cds and am an avid collector, but in jazz many musicians like Miles Davis, Thelonious Monk, Bill Evans, etc. might play the standard "If You Could See Me Now" very different from each other. Davis might mess around with the tempo and key of the song, Thelonious Monk might mess with the structure of the song, and Bill Evans might mess with the chords and change the harmony a little bit, but you see that's jazz. I view classical in a similar way but with stricter guidelines. You have to play what's one your sheet music correctly, but the emotion that's instilled into the musician is from the interpretations and visualizations of the conductor.


----------



## JTech82

I'm thinking about getting the Barbirolli box set as well. I heard he was a great interpreter of Sibelius and championed his work throughout his career. This is the box set he played on EMI with the Halle Orchestra.


----------



## tahnak

*Sibelius' symphonies - Readings*



JTech82 said:


> I'm thinking about getting the Barbirolli box set as well. I heard he was a great interpreter of Sibelius and championed his work throughout his career. This is the box set he played on EMI with the Halle Orchestra.


Lorin Maazel / Wiener Philharmoniker/ Decca (London)/ 1970. I have yet to find any one improving on these readings since the past 39 years on Sibelius' symphonies.


----------



## JTech82

As a champion of Sibelius (he's my favorite composer) I find Sir Colin Davis', Jarvi's, and Barbirolli's interpretations some of my favorites. Barbirolli was innovative in his readings. He brought a since of mystery to the compositions.

I think it would be a wise decision to look into Barbirolli's symphony cycle. Brilliant stuff. That calculating, bittersweet, coldness comes across as does the emotional stimulation and overall performance of the Halle Orchestra. One of the best Sibelius cycles I've ever heard.

While we're talking about Nordic music, Nielsen is a good choice for Sibelius fans as well. There's only one conductor that I like and his name is Herbert Blomstedt and there's one orchestra that handles the readings better than anyone the San Francisco Symphony. Check out Blomstedt's work on Nielsen. You won't be sorry.


----------



## World Violist

tahnak said:


> Lorin Maazel / Wiener Philharmoniker/ Decca (London)/ 1970. I have yet to find any one improving on these readings since the past 39 years on Sibelius' symphonies.


I personally have yet to find a box of the Sibelius symphonies that is _worse_ than Maazel's readings. Just my opinion, and I respect yours. There is no Sibelius in Maazel's readings, although I must say the Second symphony in that box is quite good.

Just for the record, I have Berglund, Maazel, Segerstam, Karajan/Kamu, and parts of the cycles by Bernstein (4-7), Vanska (3, 6), Ashkenazy (1, 2, 4), and Davis/BSO (3, 6, 7).


----------



## Tapkaara

You and I disagree BIGTIME on your last post, Violist. There is PLENTY of Sibelius in Maazel's readings of the symphonies. I still just do not understand why so many share your opinion, though.


----------



## World Violist

Tapkaara said:


> You and I disagree BIGTIME on your last post, Violist. There is PLENTY of Sibelius in Maazel's readings of the symphonies. I still just do not understand why so many share your opinion, though.


Listen to the 3rd and 6th symphonies and you'll see my point, I think at least somewhat. There isn't much character at all. So many more recordings of the symphonies have made me literally feel the Finnish winter chill, but somehow this box misses it overwhelmingly much for my liking. I'll give it another listen sometime and come back with my thoughts.


----------



## Tapkaara

Hmmm, well, I've always thought that Maazel's 3rd and 6th were, at least, fine if not the final word. These, being Sibelius's two most "sensitive" symphonies, probably do not lend themselves as well to Maazel's heavy-handed take on the music...with that I will agree. Notwithstanding, they are by no means awful or worthless...just interpreted in a way that goes against the grain a little, I guess.

But you are right...Maazel's 2nd is great. It's my favorite recording of my favorite symphony. Maazel's 4th and 7th also deserve a very special mention. His 1st is also good, though I have heard more exciting readings of it. 5th is really good, too.

So, while Maazel's cycle is not the be all and end all (after all, there is no such thing), it's a very solid one in my opinion. It is, however, one that people either love or hate, and I just happen to be in the love catagory.


----------



## JTech82

I have to agree with Violinist. Maazel's readings aren't to my liking. I actually have heard these and didn't even know I heard these. A friend of mine has the Maazel set on Decca and I find the performances to be very energetic and enthusiastic, but not all that deep. I would rather hear depth than a heavy handed conductor. Maazel is an amazing conductor in his own right, but he's not a Sibelius conductor in my opinion. That's just my assessment.

Tapkaara, I will probably assume that you have an affinity with Maazel's readings based on your own emotions, feelings, and it probably brings back nostalgic memories for you. I, on the other hand, like more detailed approach to Sibelius and one thing about Barbirolli's readings, he added much color to these compositions as did Davis with the BSO.


----------



## Tapkaara

JTech82 said:


> Tapkaara, I will probably assume that you have an affinity with Maazel's readings based on your own emotions, feelings, and it probably brings back nostalgic memories for you. I, on the other hand, like more detailed approach to Sibelius and one thing about Barbirolli's readings, he added much color to these compositions as did Davis with the BSO.


Of course my opinion of Maazel's Sibelius is based on my emotions and feelings! 

You said you prefer a "more detailed" approach to Sibelius. I'm not sure what you mean by this...and I assume you are putting forth that Maazel is not detailed? You said that Barbirolli and Davis added much color...so I take from that you believe Maazel to have less color?

This all comes down to a matter of tatse, because to me...if you want to talk colors, Davis with the BSO is white-washed whereas Maazel paints with rich pastels. If you think the opposite is true, than this is proof positive that we all hear music VERY differently!


----------



## JTech82

I should mention that I can enjoy Maazel's readings, but I don't find them to be all that deep. This is just my analysis, so I agree with Violinist. Maazel isn't the ideal Sibelius conductor, because he lacks as, Violinist said, the cold air, chilling approach. Say what you want to that cold air does something to you, especially if you've lived in and was raised in it. Finland is bitter cold in the winters. I can see where Violinist gets his analysis from. I just think Maazel doesn't get beyond the notes on his paper. My understanding is Maazel actually met Sibelius, which brings me to this point you can meet the conductor all you want it doesn't mean you know them. You have to search deep inside of yourself and look beyond the notes.

Yes we do hear different things and yes it's a matter of taste. I think we all can agree that Sibelius is open for interpretation from all kinds of people. I prefer some power, but I also like the cold haunting calm of Davis' and Barbirolli's interpretations. I look forward to hearing the Jarvi's when they come.

You see Sibelius in a different way then I do and that's okay, I'm certainly not condoning you for anything. It's just nice to see somebody who is equally as passionate about his work like I am.


----------



## music junkie

*new here*

Hello everyone,
I stumble upon this website by doing some researching on the internet. I really enjoy listening to music and my new love is classical. I'm glad to be apart of this site. Moving on, I do have a couple of questions about Jean Sibelius. In his work, violin Concerto in D minor Op.47 what is the melody (Conjunct or Disjunct)? is the rhythm duple or triple? Is it consonant or dissonant and what is the tempo. I try to meditate and let my ears be open but I just can't seem to understand this piece of art. only thing I can get is that the mood is romantic. Can the classical experts please help me with this one?


----------



## confuoco

music junkie said:


> In his work, violin Concerto in D minor Op.47 what is the melody (Conjunct or Disjunct)? is the rhythm duple or triple? Is it consonant or dissonant and what is the tempo.


Generally...is it important for you to answer questions like this to enjoy some work?


----------



## JTech82

Music_Junkie:

I'm glad you like classical music and have a new affinity for it. I will say, however, that classical music or any kind of music for that matter should not be over analysized, because that's where you start loosing enjoyment for it.

In regards to Sibelius' violin concerto, all I can tell you is it's a violin solo played over a bleak harmonic backdrop. That's all you need to know.

Welcome aboard.


----------



## tahnak

*Well Said*



JTech82 said:


> Music_Junkie:
> 
> In regards to Sibelius' violin concerto, all I can tell you is it's a violin solo played over a bleak harmonic backdrop. That's all you need to know.
> 
> Welcome aboard.


Very well said. Apart from the word 'bleak' your statement is really sublime. That bleak will take beating with the outburst of the brass after the initial exposition in the first movement; yet it is a superb one line description of the concerto. Cheers!


----------



## JTech82

tahnak said:


> Very well said. Apart from the word 'bleak' your statement is really sublime. That bleak will take beating with the outburst of the brass after the initial exposition in the first movement; yet it is a superb one line description of the concerto. Cheers!


Well thanks Tahnak. I appreciate your comments.

Getting back to Sibelius, I'm finding out for myself that John Barbirolli's readings are just amazing. He really knows this music.


----------



## Sid James

Interesting discussion on different conductors approaches to the symphonies of Sibelius. It's especially interesting how people are turned on (or off) by certain conductors. I'm also amazed at all you avid collectors, how you own a number of the boxed sets. You obviously have done your homework and know what to recommend and what you like.

What to people think of Sir Thomas Beecham's recordings? I've heard the 2nd & have a recording of the 7th. The former is a very light and sunny reading, the latter quite emotionally bleak. The sound quality is not the best (these were from the 40's and 50's, the former on mono & the latter on stereo) but I enjoyed these interpretations. Haven't heard anything else of Sibelius performed under Beecham, except the coupling for the 7th which is the Oceanides and Pelleas & Melisande.


----------



## JTech82

Andre said:


> Interesting discussion on different conductors approaches to the symphonies of Sibelius. It's especially interesting how people are turned on (or off) by certain conductors. I'm also amazed at all you avid collectors, how you own a number of the boxed sets. You obviously have done your homework and know what to recommend and what you like.
> 
> What to people think of Sir Thomas Beecham's recordings? I've heard the 2nd & have a recording of the 7th. The former is a very light and sunny reading, the latter quite emotionally bleak. The sound quality is not the best (these were from the 40's and 50's, the former on mono & the latter on stereo) but I enjoyed these interpretations. Haven't heard anything else of Sibelius performed under Beecham, except the coupling for the 7th which is the Oceanides and Pelleas & Melisande.


I can speak for myself when I say that I know what I know through reading and listening. If you're passionate about something, then you're naturally curious about it. I wouldn't be on this forum if I didn't know anything about classical, but classical has been apart of my life from as far back as I can remember. It's in my blood.

Sibelius is one my favorite composers and is one of the reasons I got into classical. His work continues to influence me, but of course, there are so many other composers that have inspired me.


----------



## species motrix

World Violist said:


> I tend to think Sibelius is more readily able to be related to when he isn't being a grand Romantic. The works of his that I like the most are all in his less grand style: the 3rd, 4th, 6th, and 7th symphonies, Pohjola's Daughter, Tapiola, and so on. Admittedly, Pohjola's Daughter comes closest to being in the grand romantic vein, but it is still not as full-blooded as, say the 2nd symphony.
> 
> I think a word must be thrown in for Kullervo. I think this is written in the true late-Romantic vein. It is very personal, at least I think, and the large orchestration doesn't impede this. It's rather like Mahler's 2nd symphony in its overall framework, yes, but the subject matter and tone of it all is very purely Sibelius. It is very like the 1st symphony. But I still have a lot of trouble calling it a purely late-Romantic piece of music. I feel as though this belongs among the select group (such as Sibbe's 1st symphony) that, while sounding of a particular style, is removed from that style by the irreplaceable presence that is Sibelius. Even the 2nd symphony--which has the least "stylistic dilution," if you will--has at least some of the Sibelian-ness about it. This I think is what makes Adorno and Leibowitz so wrong: with such a powerful presence in every one of his major works, how could he be a "bad" composer? And to say he was the worst composer is utterly absurd. I mean, there are plenty of horrible composers to begin with. But this claim is made even more absurd in that it is only these two mens' _opinions_. It doesn't do either of them any good to publish such an outlandish claim.
> 
> I dunno. It's getting later; I'm rambling.


What you must understand about Adorno is that he truly believed tonality to be a dead medium. He saw in the tonal composers that remained a mischmasch of tired element which were past their sell-by date and concessions to the vulgar tastes of the bourgeois philistines. I don't personally agree with all of his opinions, but his knowledge of music is astounding and his criticisms represent a valid, well-thought-out position which should not be taken out of context nor dismissed out of hand.

Of course, this does in no way keep me from periodically falling into states of paralysis while listening to Oistrakh's rendition of the Sibelius violin concerto on repeat.


----------



## Sid James

species motrix said:


> What you must understand about Adorno is that he truly believed tonality to be a dead medium. He saw in the tonal composers that remained a mischmasch of tired element which were past their sell-by date and concessions to the vulgar tastes of the bourgeois philistines. I don't personally agree with all of his opinions, but his knowledge of music is astounding and his criticisms represent a valid, well-thought-out position which should not be taken out of context nor dismissed out of hand.


Did Adorno only have problems with Sibelius, or did he criticise other composers as well?


----------



## species motrix

Andre said:


> Did Adorno only have problems with Sibelius, or did he criticise other composers as well?


The latter, of course. Composers and interpreters.


----------



## Rondo

I thought the name Adorno sounded familiar (assuming you are speaking of _Theodor W._ Adorno). It had me rushing through the mental rolodex and the Google archives--and _voila!_ However, I wasn't familiar with his contributions to classical music. Nice to learn about that tidbit.


----------



## jamzky

Just can't stop listening to Sibelius' 4th. It's really great, don't you think? I have neglected it all these years. I read a lot about Karajan's recording from the sixties but instead I opted for the bbc-praised sakari oramo recording. sounds good to me! I am picking up the mono recording of Beecham conducting the fourth, I think from the 30s (?) on naxos so as to get En saga cheaply too, which is missing from my collection. Also Beecham's seventh is great and the sound of old recordings for sibelius is quite a wonderful thing in itself. 


J


----------



## World Violist

Sibelius' 4th symphony is truly a great work. I love to listen to it when I can (i.e. don't have other things to listen to), however, more often than not I turn to Sibelius' last great masterpiece: Tapiola. And now I have the score for it (very inexpensive from Boosey & Hawkes, by the way!), it's already opened up considerably to me just how its genius unfolds.


----------



## jamzky

Score of Tapiola would be great to get my hands on. I will add it to my list of future purchases. 


J


----------



## Sid James

I think the _Lemminhainen Suite (Four Legends)_ is one of his best works. Many people know the famous _Swan of Tuonela_ movement, but I think it should be heard in its original context to get the most out of the music. The set is simply a masterpiece. I especially like the way he tells the story, it is very epic and dramatic. Thrilling, high-octane stuff, almost too intense to listen to right through. I think if this would have been his single major work, he would still be considered a great composer. I have the Philadelphia/Ormandy recording on EMI, coupled with _Tapiola_ (Helsinki/Berglund). It's a good coupling, but it doesn't match the intensity of the Philadelphia's rendition.

I too am a fan of his fourth symphony. It also is a masterpiece. I'm not the biggest Sibelius fan, but I like these two works, and also the _Oceanides_ and _Valse Triste_. A pity that he didn't compose anything major for the last 30 or so years of his long life.


----------



## Tapkaara

Andre said:


> Interesting discussion on different conductors approaches to the symphonies of Sibelius. It's especially interesting how people are turned on (or off) by certain conductors. I'm also amazed at all you avid collectors, how you own a number of the boxed sets. You obviously have done your homework and know what to recommend and what you like.
> 
> What to people think of Sir Thomas Beecham's recordings? I've heard the 2nd & have a recording of the 7th. The former is a very light and sunny reading, the latter quite emotionally bleak. The sound quality is not the best (these were from the 40's and 50's, the former on mono & the latter on stereo) but I enjoyed these interpretations. Haven't heard anything else of Sibelius performed under Beecham, except the coupling for the 7th which is the Oceanides and Pelleas & Melisande.


Beecham was a great Sibelian. I have not heard his reading of S2, but I have his recording of S7. This is a famous recording, and one of my favs of this particular symphony. Beecham's Tapiola is also (with good reason) well admired.


----------



## jamzky

I have the Beecham version of 7 and like that a lot. I got tapiola with Beecham - must listen to it! I normally listen to Jarvi's Tapiola, which is rightly recommended too. I have Beecham conducting 4th - very old recording from 1930's. Sibelius heard it and was supposedly impressed. Got to schedule time to listen to it. I got the score now... nice one  actually guys if you want to get Sibelius scores go to

http://imslp.org/wiki/String_Quintet_in_C_Major_(Schubert,_Franz) ignore the fact this link is schubert and put sibelius into the search option and press Enter. Some scores are now public domain, sadly not sym 7 or Tapiola.

Also! That lovely Finnish site which has a write up on Sibelius' compositions, one by one:

http://www.sibelius.fi/english/musiikki/ork_lemminkainen.htm

Lemminkainen is great. The first part and the last I like most. Beecham does a cracking fast version of the Return of Lemminkainen available on naxos historical recordings series.

J


----------



## Sid James

Sibelius' last significant composition, _Tapiola_ (1926) reaches such a high level of intensity and tight integration of themes & ideas, that it's not such a big surprise why he stopped composing after that. Maybe he thought he couldn't surpass it, along with the other major work of that time, the _Symphony No. 7_. With these two works, he aptly summed up everything he had composed, all the directions he had explored, up to that time. I've only recently (within the last 6 months) acquired these works. Until then, I had only known his more popular tone poems & symphonies. They are, however, worth exploring, as they not only shed light on the possibilities he opened up (& never pursued any further), but are also quite rewarding listening, even though they inhabit a different sound world and aesthetic than the earlier works.

Good to see also that there are some admireres of Beecham's interpretations. In this day of fully digital sound, there are still great interpretations of the past, which fully hold their own against the more technologically advanced recordings of our own time. It is also interesting to listen to a conductor who was a contemporary of, and appreciated by, the composer himself. It's a pity that Sibelius stopped being active musically at exactly the time when sound recordings were improving. Otherwise we might also be able to enjoy his own interpretations of his major works, which he never recorded. Perhaps Beecham is the closest we'll get to what the composer envisaged as good interpretations of his music in his own time.


----------



## Tapkaara

Of course, no one will ever truly know the reason for the "silence from Jarvenpaa" as far as Sibelius goes. Did he really say all he needed to? Did he want to say more but could not because he ran out of good ideas...was he affected by depression...alcoholism...both? 

At any rate, Tapiola is considered to be his final major work and I am happy to see that it is receiving a lot of due praise here. It definitly carries the composer's unique imprimature; it could not have been composed by anyone else.


----------



## jamzky

absolutely it is such a great final work. Perhaps only a handful of composers spring to mind including Beethoven, that produced a final work so fitting, such a pinnacle. I listen to my Sibelius collection as a ten-hour play list (though I hardly ever have ten hours free continuously!) from Kullervo through to Tapiola - what a voyage. 

J


----------



## Tapkaara

From Kullervo to Tapiola...what a journey indeed! There is such a breadth here...from the sprawling grandeur of Kullervo to to austere concision of Tapiola. And everything in between!


----------



## jamzky

I really have found some gems I didn't know before like 'Rakastaava" (if that's right spelling) which has string writing to rival any of the famous serenades by tchaikovsky, suk, elgar etc. Also Luonnotar - that is such a beautiful work. I also like Pan and Echo - what he can achieve in such a short space of time with an orchestra. I got his Pelleas och Melisande and it is much more to my liking than Schoenberg's.


----------



## Tapkaara

Rakastava is a well-known work, yet not one of my personal favorites. Luonnotar, however, is thrilling work with such brutal tessitura for the singer. I love it. Pan and Echo is based on the world of Greek myth and is one of the master's most inspired miniatures. Pelleas and Melisande is spectacularly good and that opening movement never fails to get to me.


----------



## Sid James

*Sibelius Violin Concerto*

Just yesterday, I bought a recording of Sibelius' _*Violin Concerto*_. I have known the work for the last 15 years, before I used to own another recording.

It is really a flawed gem, but a magnificent one at that! The first movement is one of his most intense creations, and very innovative - the first big orchestral tutti/theme comes about five minutes into the piece, and there is an extended solo cadenza in the middle. It is no surprise that the rest of the work does not live up to the expectations set by the first movement. It would be difficult to surpass, and the following movements are not as brilliant, but still of good quality. The middle slow movement has a bit of Nordic schmaltzyness about it, but that doesn't stop me with having a good wallow in the emotion of it all. & the final movement is based on a dance theme, for me, it never really takes off until the last minute or so, when the orchestra makes a new, grand, epic statement, but then the work rather abruptly ends.

There were problems with the gestation of this work. Upon its premiere, the original version was mauled heavily by the critics, and Sibelius subsequently revised it. It is the second revised version that is in the repertoire today. A recording has been made on BIS of the originail version, but it is not widely heard. The composer was also struggling with alcoholism and depression during its composition.

All in all, this concerto (for me) lacks cohesion to a degree. Somewhat similar to the problems I have with the *Elgar* and *Shostakovich* concertos. But compared to them, the Sibelius is fairly compact. It does not match the clarity of the *Prokofiev* No. 1 or *Bartok* No. 2, but only makes slightly less of an impact than those. The first movement of the Sibelius is so good, that it makes you overlook the flaws of the rest of the piece.

The performance I bought is a recent one, recorded in 2007 with violinist Hilary Hahn and the Swedish Radio SO conducted by Esa-Pekka Salonen. It's a very intellectual and lyrical reading, which (I dare say) matches any other in quality and breadth. It is rather oddly, but refreshingly, coupled with the excellent Schoenberg concerto.


----------



## Tapkaara

The Sibelius Violin Concerto is a popular one; it is often described as the most recorded 20th century violin concerto.

A performance I would recommend to you, Andre, is one that is not too well know. It's on Naxos: Bjarte Engeset conducting the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra with Henning Kraggerud as the solist.

There's a lot of fire in this performance and it is extremely well played by Kraggerud.

I have not heard the Salonen recording you have, but I do have the famous recording Salonen did with Cho Liang Lin. This is a much lauded performance, but I actually find it to be very bland. If this current Salonen reading is like this older one, I can see why you may be turned off to the other two movements.

With the Engeset recording, every movement is performed with a rare passion...give that one a try and let me know what you think.


----------



## World Violist

I very much like Leonidas Kavakos' recording (with Vanska/Lahti) and Pekka Kuusisto's (with Segerstam/HPO). They both have very intense first movements, poetic second movements, fiery third movements.


----------



## JTech82

Andre said:


> Just yesterday, I bought a recording of Sibelius' _*Violin Concerto*_. I have known the work for the last 15 years, before I used to own another recording.
> 
> It is really a flawed gem, but a magnificent one at that! The first movement is one of his most intense creations, and very innovative - the first big orchestral tutti/theme comes about five minutes into the piece, and there is an extended solo cadenza in the middle. It is no surprise that the rest of the work does not live up to the expectations set by the first movement. It would be difficult to surpass, and the following movements are not as brilliant, but still of good quality. The middle slow movement has a bit of Nordic schmaltzyness about it, but that doesn't stop me with having a good wallow in the emotion of it all. & the final movement is based on a dance theme, for me, it never really takes off until the last minute or so, when the orchestra makes a new, grand, epic statement, but then the work rather abruptly ends.
> 
> There were problems with the gestation of this work. Upon its premiere, the original version was mauled heavily by the critics, and Sibelius subsequently revised it. It is the second revised version that is in the repertoire today. A recording has been made on BIS of the originail version, but it is not widely heard. The composer was also struggling with alcoholism and depression during its composition.
> 
> All in all, this concerto (for me) lacks cohesion to a degree. Somewhat similar to the problems I have with the *Elgar* and *Shostakovich* concertos. But compared to them, the Sibelius is fairly compact. It does not match the clarity of the *Prokofiev* No. 1 or *Bartok* No. 2, but only makes slightly less of an impact than those. The first movement of the Sibelius is so good, that it makes you overlook the flaws of the rest of the piece.
> 
> The performance I bought is a recent one, recorded in 2007 with violinist Hilary Hahn and the Swedish Radio SO conducted by Esa-Pekka Salonen. It's a very intellectual and lyrical reading, which (I dare say) matches any other in quality and breadth. It is rather oddly, but refreshingly, coupled with the excellent Schoenberg concerto.


Ah, the wonders of copying and pasting.  Saves a lot of time.


----------



## Sid James

Tapkaara said:


> A performance I would recommend to you, Andre, is one that is not too well know. It's on Naxos: Bjarte Engeset conducting the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra with Henning Kraggerud as the solist.
> 
> There's a lot of fire in this performance and it is extremely well played by Kraggerud.
> 
> I have not heard the Salonen recording you have, but I do have the famous recording Salonen did with Cho Liang Lin. This is a much lauded performance, but I actually find it to be very bland. If this current Salonen reading is like this older one, I can see why you may be turned off to the other two movements.
> 
> With the Engeset recording, every movement is performed with a rare passion...give that one a try and let me know what you think.


I agree with you that this is an oft-recorded concerto & coupled with everything from the Tchaikovsky to the Bartok 2nd, depending on which CD you happen to buy.

I think Hahn's performance is very fine, though. It has been lauded by critics and nominated for a Grammy. The CD I used to have before was Dong-Suk Kang on Naxos, and that seemed to be a more earthy performance, from memory (don't have it now).

But I think my criticisms of the work itself is reasonable & valid. I read Neville Cardus' critique of the work many years ago and thought he was wrong. However, listening to the concerto again, and being older now and more able to think critically of music, to be able to perceive rather than just hear it, Cardus' opinions seem right. There is much less cohesion in the Sibelius when you compare it to, say the Tchaikovsky, Prokofiev No. 1 or Bartok No. 2. It seems to fit together less successfully as an integrated unit than those works. That's why I compared it to the Elgar. I think his & the Sibelius have much in common (although Elgar's is much longer), they seem to be less than coherent.

Nonetheless, the Sibelius is a great concerto, despite it's shortcomings (which are probably minor, but still apparent). I can't help it, as I'm getting older and more experienced with classical music, I start to listen a bit too much with my head rather than my heart. It's also a sign of knowing more works in the repertoire with which I can compare things with. All this has not stopped me enjoying Sibelius generally, though.


----------



## JTech82

Andre said:


> Nonetheless, the Sibelius is a great concerto, despite it's shortcomings (which are probably minor, but still apparent). I can't help it, as I'm getting older and more experienced with classical music, I start to listen a bit too much with my head rather than my heart. It's also a sign of knowing more works in the repertoire with which I can compare things with. All this has not stopped me enjoying Sibelius generally, though.


This is so true. You will find that Sibelius only gets better with age.


----------



## World Violist

JTech82 said:


> This is so true. You will find that Sibelius only gets better with age.


This is very true. In the only year or so I've even been listening to Sibelius, his music has grown to be so much more than just the nationalist late-romantic that was presented to me by Bernstein and Ormandy. It really is something...

As regards the concerto, I'm not too sure what to think. I mean, the first movement is probably one of the most glorious violin concerto movements I've ever heard (which alone places it firmly in my top five favorite violin concerti), but it's still taking me a while to get into the last two movements as a whole with the first... you know? It's like they're too warm for the chilled serenity of the first movement.


----------



## Tapkaara

Perhaps the concerto is something that one also acquires with age!

As devoted as I am to Sibelius, it even took me a while to come over to it 100%. There is sort of an aloof character to it...it does not give up its secrets easily. But once it clicks, it clicks and it is a most compelling work.


----------



## handlebar

The first time I had ever heard the Violin concerto was the back when a teen and it was the Heifetz recording from 1936 i believe. I was blown away. It is still my favourite.

Jim


----------



## Tapkaara

Yeah, the Sibelius Violin Concerto is practically my favorite violin concerto as well, along with those of Ifukube and Khachaturian. I also enjoy Beethoven's and Bruch's quite a bit too. But the Sibelius has such a dark mystery around it until that joyous final movement that I love plunging into every time.


----------



## World Violist

handlebar said:


> The first time I had ever heard the Violin concerto was the back when a teen and it was the Heifetz recording from 1936 i believe. I was blown away. It is still my favourite.
> 
> Jim


Yes, that was the first recording, with Sir Thomas Beecham I think.

My first Sibelius concerto was also with Heifetz, but from about 20-25 years later and (I think...) Charles Munch as the conductor. That's a very good one also!


----------



## handlebar

World Violist said:


> Yes, that was the first recording, with Sir Thomas Beecham I think.
> 
> My first Sibelius concerto was also with Heifetz, but from about 20-25 years later and (I think...) Charles Munch as the conductor. That's a very good one also!


And the audio was so much better. The Munch version seems a bit slower to me. Might be these old,tired ears though. But i also think it is more lyrical and that Heifetz plays more elegantly.

Jim


----------



## World Violist

handlebar said:


> And the audio was so much better. The Munch version seems a bit slower to me. Might be these old,tired ears though. But i also think it is more lyrical and that Heifetz plays more elegantly.
> 
> Jim


I think Heifetz played it with more "soul" or whatever with Beecham, actually. Also, not that I care for these things, but with Munch it seems that he makes more--dare I say it--mistakes!

But yeah, you can't really go wrong with Heifetz either way you cut it. Both are on the highest musical plane!


----------



## Sid James

To me, the best compositions by Sibelius are his *Lemminkainen Suite *& *The Tempest*. These works have a cohesiveness and intensity that is maintained throughout. Apart from _Symphony No. 4_, I find his symphonies much less consistent & satisfying. Somehow, for me, they do not maintain my interest throughout, they grab my attention & then become somewhat predictable as they go on. This can be said of the _Violin Concerto_, which I have discussed above. It's like two conventional movements stuck on to the thrilling and unforgettable first movement.

That said, Sibelius was obviously a great composer, but when one has also listened to the likes of Brahms, Debussy & Bartok, who I think had more consistent output, one has very high standards, indeed.


----------



## Tapkaara

Andre said:


> To me, the best compositions by Sibelius are his *Lemminkainen Suite *& *The Tempest*. These works have a cohesiveness and intensity that is maintained throughout. Apart from _Symphony No. 4_, I find his symphonies much less consistent & satisfying. Somehow, for me, they do not maintain my interest throughout, they grab my attention & then become somewhat predictable as they go on. This can be said of the _Violin Concerto_, which I have discussed above. It's like two conventional movements stuck on to the thrilling and unforgettable first movement.
> 
> That said, Sibelius was obviously a great composer, but when one has also listened to the likes of Brahms, Debussy & Bartok, who I think had more consistent output, one has very high standards, indeed.


Funny how different people hear different things..!

I can basically say everything you said about Sibelius about Debussy, whom you mentioned. I find him fairly boring and static...music that doesn't go anywhere or do much. But he is revered, and I suppose I'm just not in on his sound.

Lemminkainen is a sumptuous score from the start of his career and the Tempest is from towards the end. At least you like SOME Sibelius!


----------



## Sid James

Tapkaara said:


> Lemminkainen is a sumptuous score from the start of his career and the Tempest is from towards the end. At least you like SOME Sibelius!


With _Lemminkainen_, Sibelius set a very high bar for himself that would be difficult to surpass. He was a composer who had very high standards - he never lowered these to produce any cheap 'bread & butter' music like some others may have - and he also had the difficult task of putting Finland on the map, musically speaking.

I find the best of his music, like the pieces I mentioned above, to have an intensity & drive which is pretty unique. The fact that he produced no major work after _Tapiola_ around 1926, says to me that maybe he just couldn't maintain the intensity. & of course, he didn't want to produce pap, like some composers I won't mention.

So it's with these high standards and difficult goals that I have in mind when I say Sibelius' music for me doesn't always hit the mark. It is because, after hearing those pieces, one comes to expect amazing things of Sibelius, and of course, this expectation isn't entirely realistic. In a way, the listener becomes just as perfectionist as the composer was...


----------



## Tapkaara

True, Sibelius was a notoriously harsh self-critic. Because of his self criticism, we have lost the 8th symphony, which he burned in his fireplace in the 1940s. One of music's great tragedies, I'd say.

Keep in mind, too, that he was an alcoholic and more than likely depressed. So, these probably affected his ability to compose after Tapiola as well.


----------



## Sid James

Tapkaara said:


> True, Sibelius was a notoriously harsh self-critic....
> 
> Keep in mind, too, that he was an alcoholic and more than likely depressed....


You make some good points. He seemed to be a very serious and introverted person. This is perhaps part of the reason why his music seems to be saying profound things, about the struggles of life and death. He really makes those epic Finnish legends, like _Lemminkainen_, come to life with this viewpoint. Even in a miniature like the much-played _Valse Triste_, drama and tragedy come to the fore.

& unlike Mahler, whose symphonies are vast creations, and Nielsen, whose symphonies progressed from being simple to more complex, Sibelius did the opposite. The early ones are larger in scope, influenced by Tchaikovsky, and the later ones are more severe and pared down (_Symphony No. 7_is the most condensed, it points towards one-movement works created much later, by people like Penderecki & Lutoslawski). So no wonder that, after reaching such a crystallisation of his style in that work & _Tapiola_, he became even more introverted & self critical. He seemed to have reached a plateau after those high points, and probably said all that he wanted to say. I suppose that the saying 'less is more' could be applied to the mindset that he reached.


----------



## tenor02

Andre said:


> To me, the best compositions by Sibelius are his *Lemminkainen Suite *


i recently heard this on NPR -- LA phil recording, was absolutely phenominal.


----------



## Tapkaara

Good observations, Andre!

You are right, his earlier symphonies, at least the first two, are on a grand romantic scale. By the 7th, he condensed the music into a one movement work of amazing density. 

We discussed this to some length in another thread, but I think in many ways, Sibelius was one of the first minimalists. His "less is more" outlook and frequent use of ostinati strongly suggest this to me.


----------



## Tapkaara

tenor02 said:


> i recently heard this on NPR -- LA phil recording, was absolutely phenominal.


I seem to recall hearing the Lemminkainen Legends late one night on the radio...the Minnesota Orchestra if I'm not mistaken. Great performance, and the audience was certainly appreciative!


----------



## Sid James

Tapkaara said:


> You are right, his earlier symphonies, at least the first two, are on a grand romantic scale. By the 7th, he condensed the music into a one movement work of amazing density.
> 
> We discussed this to some length in another thread, but I think in many ways, Sibelius was one of the first minimalists. His "less is more" outlook and frequent use of ostinati strongly suggest this to me.


I think Sibelius' _Symphony No. 7_ opened up the possiblity of writing a work in that genre in a tight, condensed way, unlike anything (I know) had gone before. Unintentionally, Schubert also did this, with his _Symphony No. 8 'Unfinished_' and the one-movement _String Quartet No. 12_. Listening to those works makes me appreciate some works of the late C20th more, like Lutoslawski's_ Symphony No. 2_, which is in two continuous movements. Lutoslawski said that the symphony suggested to him some kind of 'closed form,' no matter how many movements it is made up of. & I haven't heard it yet, but I know Penderecki has also composed a one-movement symphony.

I wonder what Sibelius (& Schubert!) would have thought about works like this. No doubt, they would have taken their hats off to them, I think. Contemporary composers can & do write works in the traditional genres that are more condensed, thanks (in part) to these two.

& I think that the _Lemminkainen Suite _HAS to be listened to in it's entirety to be enjoyed fully & make it's full impact on the listener. I think it's devaluing the work when some labels just put a few of the famous excerpts onto their CDs as fillers. This happens often with _The Swan of Tuonela _all too often, unfortunately...


----------



## Tapkaara

Andre said:


> I think that the _Lemminkainen Suite _HAS to be listened to in it's entirety to be enjoyed fully & make it's full impact on the listener. I think it's devaluing the work when some labels just put a few of the famous excerpts onto their CDs as fillers. This happens often with _The Swan of Tuonela _all too often, unfortunately...


I cannot agree more. The Swan and, to a lesser extent, Lemminkainen's Return are fillers on Sibelius discs. While the Swan holds up fairly well as its own "tone poem," it is part of a greater suite (some would argue an un-numbered symphony) and it should be heard it the context of the other music. I mean, who would dare take individual movments from a Mozart or Beethoven symphony and use it as "filler" on a disc?? I think the same should apply to Sibelius!


----------



## Sid James

As reported by Neville Cardus in the "Manchester Guardian" newspaper in 1958,



> Sibelius justified the austerity of his old age by saying that while other composers were engaged in manufacturing cocktails he offered the public pure cold water.


I think this quote is very apt. Just found it on the net. Cardus wrote some excellent books on classical music. I'm not sure if any of them are in print now. He pulled no punches though & could be very critical of some composers. But I think his criticism was very incisive and constructive.


----------



## Sid James

I just mistakenly posted this entry twice...


----------



## Tapkaara

That is a well-known quote by Sibelius and I think it describes his idiom well, certainly in the context of other composers of the period whose style was "flashier" than his. Sibelius, for example, once referred to Stravinky's music as "stillborn affectations." Ouch!


----------



## tahnak

Jascha Heifetz's performance with Charles Munch is the definitive version of Sibelius' violin concerto. Yet to hear a better one.


----------



## bassClef

Just wanted to say what a wonderful piece Snöfrid is.


----------



## World Violist

tahnak said:


> Jascha Heifetz's performance with Charles Munch is the definitive version of Sibelius' violin concerto.


I would love to argue this, but since this is all entirely a matter of opinion I think I'll just let it go; after all, I thought the same way until I started disliking Heifetz in general.


----------



## Sid James

I've just listened to a freind's cd of Sibelius' _*The Maiden in the Tower*_, a one-act opera written in the late C19th. While I don't think that it's the greatest opera in the world, it's an interesting piece, which has many characteristics that are instantly recognisable as by Sibelius. I enjoy this and his tone poems (especially _Lemminkainen_) more than I do his symphonies. Come to think of it, it appears that not much opera has come out of the Scandinavian countries. The performance was by the Gothenborg SO/Jarvi.


----------



## Tapkaara

Andre said:


> I've just listened to a freind's cd of Sibelius' _*The Maiden in the Tower*_, a one-act opera written in the late C19th. While I don't think that it's the greatest opera in the world, it's an interesting piece, which has many characteristics that are instantly recognisable as by Sibelius. I enjoy this and his tone poems (especially _Lemminkainen_) more than I do his symphonies. Come to think of it, it appears that not much opera has come out of the Scandinavian countries. The performance was by the Gothenborg SO/Jarvi.


The Maiden is not a work by Sibelius that I have much love for. One gets the feeling Sibelius was not that interested in the project himself. It's got a weak libretto; I think there is only so much you could write in music to support the feeble, dare I say banal plot. I just have to think Sibelius thought the same thing.

His heart was certainly, however, in his aborted opera The Building of the Boat on themes from the Kalevala, Finland's national epic. It's too bad the opera never came to fruition, but music from it is extant...it is today known as the Four Lemminkainen Legends. The music inthis four-movement tone poem (some say symphony) is on a much higher creative level than the Maiden; one gets the sense Sibelius was greatly inspired in channeling ancient Finnish mythology through his score. If only we could have heard what a full opera on this subject would have sounded like...


----------



## JAKE WYB

im glad its an epic orchestral suite i believe it has that unique ethereal and otherworldy soundworld and dramatic instrumental narrative without the distraction of operatic warbling and extended gestural filler music that operas are laden with


----------



## Tapkaara

JAKE WYB said:


> im glad its an epic orchestral suite i believe it has that unique ethereal and otherworldy soundworld and dramatic instrumental narrative without the distraction of operatic warbling and extended gestural filler music that operas are laden with


Good point...I think that expresses my attitudes towards opera as well.

BUT...

We get a more authentic taste of what a Sibelian opera could have sounded like with the 3rd movement of Kullervo and, may I say, it's brilliant. And there's no filler...everything comes together so well without going on and on and on.

Sibelius was a master of concision; I'd bet you if he wrote an epic opera on a subject where he could really let his imagination fly, we'd hear something spectacular without one unneeded note. No filler in Sibelius!


----------



## Lukecash12

Oistrakh plays some damn fine Sibelius.


----------



## Sid James

I'd agree that _Lemminkainen_ beats _The Maiden in the Tower _hands down, but it's still interesting to hear a Scandinavian opera, because one doesn't often get an opportunity to do that. I don't really care about the weakness of the plot or libretto, I don't even know what it's about, all I'm saying is that I enjoyed hearing it...


----------



## Tapkaara

Andre said:


> I'd agree that _Lemminkainen_ beats _The Maiden in the Tower _hands down, but it's still interesting to hear a Scandinavian opera, because one doesn't often get an opportunity to do that. I don't really care about the weakness of the plot or libretto, I don't even know what it's about, all I'm saying is that I enjoyed hearing it...


That you enjoyed it is really all that matters, really!!


----------



## Lukecash12

Here's a little something to please big Sibelius fans: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=10691EF3FB28317D

And a picture of Stravinsky visiting Sibelius' grave:


----------



## Tapkaara

Here's me doing the same thing, but I am no Stravinsky!


----------



## Lukecash12

This is the face of jealousy and surprise


----------



## tahnak

*Lemminkainen's Return*

The more I hear Lemminkainen's Return and particularly 'The Swan of Tuonela' , it brings tear to my eyes. Today, I was hearing Sibelius' Romance for violin and piano and his Romanza for strings. Much moved by them.


----------



## Tapkaara

tahnak said:


> The more I hear Lemminkainen's Return and particularly 'The Swan of Tuonela' , it brings tear to my eyes. Today, I was hearing Sibelius' Romance for violin and piano and his Romanza for strings. Much moved by them.


Sibelius wrote much great chamber music. He is primarily known for the big orchestral stuff, but his smaller, more intimate works are sadly not as well known.

At the Lahti Festival, there was a wonderful concert of some of his works for violin and piano and cello and piano. Check out his Malinconia for cello and piano...a very contemplative, striking work.


----------



## Lukecash12

I love his Kung Christian II suite!

But as for short pieces, I think his Lulu Waltz is the best of them.


----------



## Tapkaara

Lukecash12 said:


> I love his Kung Christian II suite!
> 
> But as for short pieces, I think his Lulu Waltz is the best of them.


King Christian is very well done lighter music. And the Lulu Waltz? Are we talking about the same composer??


----------



## Lukecash12

Forgive me for using it's nickname, I meant the *Tempo Di Valse*.

Here's a quote on it from a friend of mine: "Sibelius composed the three early cello pieces (Andantino in C Major, Andante Molto in F Minor and Tempo di Valse, "Lulu Waltz") towards the end of his chamber music period. The longest of them, the Andante molto, has a solo cadenza and was written for his brother Christian. Jean Sibelius premiered the Tempo di valse with his brother in Loviisa in August 1889."

You see, I'm dumb, but not stupid...


----------



## Tapkaara

Lukecash12 said:


> Forgive me for using it's nickname, I meant the *Tempo Di Valse*.
> 
> Here's a quote on it from a friend of mine: "Sibelius composed the three early cello pieces (Andantino in C Major, Andante Molto in F Minor and Tempo di Valse, "Lulu Waltz") towards the end of his chamber music period. The longest of them, the Andante molto, has a solo cadenza and was written for his brother Christian. Jean Sibelius premiered the Tempo di valse with his brother in Loviisa in August 1889."
> 
> You see, I'm dumb, but not stupid...


Wow, I am not familiar with the nickname "Lulu," though I know the Tempo di Valse. I'm sure I must have read about that at some point in my Sibelian career, but kudos to you for having some insider knowledge!!


----------



## tahnak

Tapkaara said:


> Believe it or not, I am not very familiar with Barbirolli's Sibelius, though I know it is popular. I do have a copy of Barbirolli's famous reading of the 2nd on the Chesky record label. In this recording, he indeed adds much oomph, just as Maazel does. Maazel's 2nd is my personal favorite recording of my favorite Sibelius symphony.
> 
> The world does not agree but when I listen to Maazel and Sibelius' second and first and third and fifth and seventh, I don't find replacements for that. However, the fourth and sixth are done superbly by Berlin and Karajan.


----------



## Tapkaara

tahnak said:


> Tapkaara said:
> 
> 
> 
> Believe it or not, I am not very familiar with Barbirolli's Sibelius, though I know it is popular. I do have a copy of Barbirolli's famous reading of the 2nd on the Chesky record label. In this recording, he indeed adds much oomph, just as Maazel does. Maazel's 2nd is my personal favorite recording of my favorite Sibelius symphony.
> 
> The world does not agree but when I listen to Maazel and Sibelius' second and first and third and fifth and seventh, I don't find replacements for that. However, the fourth and sixth are done superbly by Berlin and Karajan.
> 
> 
> 
> Maazel is persona non grata, for the most part, in the world of Sibelius. I guess his interpretations are unconventional, but it's there that I find the refreshment. He has a very burly, manly take on Sibelius that I appreciate.
Click to expand...


----------



## audiophilia

Adore Sibelius, but Violin Concerto, Pohjola's Daughter and the 5th Symphony, especially. 

Haendel
Berglund
Karajan

for the recordings.


----------



## Lukecash12

This might be surprising, but Glenn Gould played Sibelius fantastically:


----------



## shiftyoliver

*Best of Sibelius?*

Trying to get into Sibelius' works, having only heard a couple of his pieces, The Swan of Tuonela and obviously, Finlandia and various other piano pieces. I've listened to Pelléas et Mélisande but for some reason or another that did not grab me. Just started listening to the 1st movement of his 2nd symphony as I type this. Any recommended works I should listen to? Particularly anything similiar to Swan of Tuonela?


----------



## Tapkaara

If you like The Swan, I suppose it is Sibelius's darker side you are into.

Pohjola's Daughter, En Saga and Tapiola come to mind immediately. Also try Kullervo.

The 2nd Symphony is for the most part a heroic, optimistic work. Try his 1st and certainly his 4th Symphonies for a little bit more of a melancholic, dark mood.

Honestly, much of Sibelius is fairly dark (that's why I love him, actually) but let's not paint the composer with too broad a brush. He also wrote much optimistic, "brighter" stuff that is splendid as well.


----------



## Artemis

An easy and a generally reliable way of finding out which are the most popular works of the major composers is to try the ArkivMusic site. Click on this link and you will see a list of major composers. For each it will normally list the 10 "_Most Popular Works_". There is certainly one for Sibelius. Such lists generally provide the best way into classical music in my opinion. The ArkivMusic site also provides lists of the various recordings available, etc.

It may be worth reminding newcomers to classical music that a list of "most popular works" does not normally equate with "best works" or "greatest works". Issues of this nature are far more subjective, as everyone who knows anything about the particular composer will have their own opinion. This kind of material tends to be the subject of discussion on Boards like this.


----------



## World Violist

Funny that this thread started on Sibelius' birthday... hmm...

Try to find Bernstein's old recording of Pohjola's Daughter. Surely about the most exciting Sibelius recording out there, especially for beginniners!


----------



## starry

Listen to another version of Pelleas - maybe the Beecham recording - it can take more than one listen with classical music to fully engage with something. And it is about engaging with something rather than just listening to something for a mood it brings. After all you might be in one mood one moment, and another mood another. And anyway why just want something exactly the same as something else, music is about variety.


----------



## bassClef

For years I was quite content with listening to his major well-known works (2nd Symphony, Finlandia, Pelleas..., Karelia, Luonnotar, Pohjola's Daughter, Lemminkainen, Valse Triste, etc) but I wasn't aware what I was missing until I delved deeper quite recently. I urge you to try these lesser-known works:

The Wood Nymph
Snofrid
The Tempest
Romance in C for String Orchestra


----------



## Joaf

I agree with those who've said Pohjola's Daughter. Best Sibelius work I've heard


----------



## Art Rock

Not mentioned yet: his beautiful violin concerto.

I second Tapiola, and basically all his symphonies.


----------



## World Violist

bassClef said:


> For years I was quite content with listening to his major well-known works (2nd Symphony, Finlandia, Pelleas..., Karelia, Luonnotar, Pohjola's Daughter, Lemminkainen, Valse Triste, etc) but I wasn't aware what I was missing until I delved deeper quite recently. I urge you to try these lesser-known works:
> 
> The Wood Nymph
> Snofrid
> The Tempest
> Romance in C for String Orchestra


I second this recommendation for the Wood Nymph, but I think it is better to start with the better-known works until comfortable with Sibbe's unique idiom.


----------



## Tapkaara

World Violist said:


> I second this recommendation for the Wood Nymph, but I think it is better to start with the better-known works until comfortable with Sibbe's unique idiom.


Plus words like Snöfrid and The Wood Nymph are not as commonly found as some of the other works. If you find either, it will be on a full-priced disc. Other works like Pohjola and Tapiola can be found in abundance on budget priced discs, thus making the risk factor lower in case he ends up not liking the music! (Which, of course, WILL NOT happen.)


----------



## Sid James

I think that the _*Four Legends (Lemminkainen Suite*_) from which _The Swan of Tuonela_ is often extracted is (as a whole) a masterpiece, and probably the only Sibelius I really like. Sibelius is quite innovative in that he only presents fragments of themes within each movement, and it's as if he is assembling this big jigsaw of ideas in front of the listener, only presenting the theme in the final bars of each movement. This approach was very modern for it's day (late C19th), about a decade or two before other composers like Scriabin, Debussy & finally Prokofiev would begin to do similar things. But even if you're not overly analytical like me, you will enjoy this work, because it is very dramatic and epic.

I have a great recording of it on EMI Encore with the Philadelphia under Ormandy and it only cost me $10 Australian. The remastering of the late 1970's analogue recording is top-notch, and the digital recording of the coupling, _Tapiola_ (Helsinki/Berglund) is just as compelling. Highly recommended...


----------



## Polednice

I don't know if it's been mentioned before, but here's for people with access to BBC iPlayer:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00q9p2y/Jean_Sibelius_The_Early_Years/

BBC Four has some Respighi, Paganin and Tchaikovsky in February too.


----------



## Aramis

*Sibelius chamber works*

When you talk about Sibelius, you always discuss his symphonic works and violin concerto.

Let's talk about chamber Sibelius in this thread. Good idea, my lord. Of course it's a good idea.

What chamber Sibeliusz works are your faves, what do you think about them in general? Was he as good/terrible in composing chamber music as in symphonic works?

I really like the way he beated the other girls in his Piano Sonata in F major. Unfortunately it has serious weakness. It's too short. Three movements leasting together about 17 minutes. I would really prefer it to be longer, just like older romantic sonatas.

There is a lot of other short solo piano stuff, but nothing that makes really solid work.

His string quartets didn't listen to I for long time, but I remember that liked I have. Them.

Song I do not know yet.

Trios must I dig deeper yet.

_Piano quintet too!
And how about you?_


----------



## ScipioAfricanus

his Piano Quintet is severely underrated. That is the one I like the most.


----------



## joen_cph

The Malincolia for cello & piano as well;
could be a potential hit (among certain people anyway) ...


----------



## Tapkaara

I was listening to the Piano Quintet earlier today...

It's not one of my favorite Sibelius works. I like the first and Fifth movements, but the stuff in the middle fails to grab me. It is certainly not a bad work...and it is well-written, but I cannot get too absorbed into the idiom. It has a very central European sound much of the time and lacks the brooding intensity I love so much in Sibelius.

Malinconia for Cello and Piano is a wonderful work, not too well known.

The Voces intimae Quartet is also wonderful, but a little difficult. It does not fall easily on the ears the first few times you try to take it in but it reveals its secrets to you only after a few listens. One truly must be ready to hear the "intimate voices!"


----------



## JAKE WYB

i was going to say malincolia too - 

amongst his reems of dreadful piano music re some interesting curiositiers - the 5 pieces 'the trees' are the most characteristic ive yet heard

The organ piece from op111 'suriusotto' if that counts here is the one thing that is fully amazing - not jut beacuse its reputed to be the only existing remnant of music for the legendary 8th symphony but simply because its so powerful like sibelius at his most elemental - sends shivers up my spine like not even his symphonies do - I always like to mention that piece - 

I do thinki ive yet to appreciate the voces intimae quartet but ive only heard it twice or thrice so it seems a bit insipid and fusty to me so far....


----------



## Tapkaara

JAKE WYB said:


> amongst his reems of dreadful piano music.......


What makes you say this??


----------



## Head_case

> The Voces intimae Quartet is also wonderful, but a little difficult. It does not fall easily on the ears the first few times you try to take it in but it reveals its secrets to you only after a few listens. One truly must be ready to hear the "intimate voices!"


Unlike Grieg's rock n' roll string quartet which is so accessible 

I haven't listened to Sibelius' string quartet in 4-5 years. In fact, I didn't really miss it, and I can't even think of the quartet who did it. Probably the New Helsinki Quartet some bod or other. There are many 'less accessible' string quartets than Sibelius' string quartet. I'm not sure why I hear less intimacy in his string quartet, than say, Janacek's two string quartets, although a laxative would probably be more palatable than straining any more at the toilet bowl to hear his 'intimate voices'.

Is it possible, that Sibelius just isn't famous for chamber music, because he was actually better, at writing large scale orchestral music?


----------



## Tapkaara

Head_case said:


> Is it possible, that Sibelius just isn't famous for chamber music, because he was actually better, at writing large scale orchestral music?


This is an interesting and perhaps valid point.

Sibelius was in his element when writing for the full orchestra. It was the composer's favorite medium and one can certainly hear that, I think.

He did write chamber music as well and the Voces intimae Quartet is certainly one of the finest examples of his forays into smaller-scale genres.

He was fairly prolific in piano music, which certainly plays an important part in his chamber catalogue. Unfortunately, his piano music is so often derided for being bland, unispired...or perhaps...dreadful. I believe this is more stereotype than truth. of course, anyone is welcome to say they do not like his piano works if they genuinly do not like them, but I find most people who say this say it because they have heard his piano music is bad from someone else. if one were to listen for one's self, I think pleasant surprises would abound. His piano music is accessible, tuneful, often delicate. It was Glenn Gould, no less, who said something like 'Sibelius never wrote against the grain of the piano." Gould recorded several of Sibelius's piano works, by the way.


----------



## Head_case

Tapkaara said:


> This is an interesting and perhaps valid point.
> 
> Sibelius was in his element when writing for the full orchestra. It was the composer's favorite medium and one can certainly hear that, I think.
> 
> He did write chamber music as well and the Voces intimae Quartet is certainly one of the finest examples of his forays into smaller-scale genres.
> 
> He was fairly prolific in piano music, which certainly plays an important part in his chamber catalogue. Unfortunately, his piano music is so often derided for being bland, unispired...or perhaps...dreadful. I believe this is more stereotype than truth. of course, anyone is welcome to say they do not like his piano works if they genuinly do not like them, but I find most people who say this say it because they have heard his piano music is bad from someone else. if one were to listen for one's self, I think pleasant surprises would abound. His piano music is accessible, tuneful, often delicate. It was Glenn Gould, no less, who said something like 'Sibelius never wrote against the grain of the piano." Gould recorded several of Sibelius's piano works, by the way.


Well I don't know if it is..! I was just commenting tongue in cheek.... 

Like much chamber music, it's introverted nature and the lack of the balls out approach of the symphonic form makes it less exciting for the masses to laud. The intensity of Voces Intimae is too demanding - or was way too demanding for me when I was in school, I couldn't get into it. Wind on another decade and I'll probably return to it to discover something akin to the elegiac otherworldliness of the Faure quartet; or the intensely lyrical form of the complete string quartet cycle of the Myaskovskian worldview, neither of which are torch songs or anthems to rouse the masses 

I'd always wondered if Sibelius' Voces intimae was coined after he discovered he had throat cancer. Whereas the Myaskovskian world reveals elegiac beauty and melancholy, and the Faurean universe, a dignified and ethereal beauty, Sibelius' quartet works reveal .... a funeral dirge. His musical biographers seem to take a more technical slant regarding the title epithet 'voces intimae' and point to the contrapuntal technique in his Adagio, however it's hard not to think that such inspiration was drawn from his own life and circumstances and cancer. That D minor quartet does however stand out from the other string ditties he wrote, so much so that his inconsistency in the string quartet form becomes very apparent. Student works are okay to listen to; many a composer returns to their original student essays to rework them, instead of torturing the world with its legacy. Or torturing themselves with such a dire starting point. However the patience that the Voces intimae requires....is not insubstantial. Its rewards for the listener are likely to be just as sublime as Faure's single masterpiece. I'm just not there yet 

No idea about his piano music. I'm thankful I don't have to listen to that sort of stuff


----------



## Tapkaara

Head_case said:


> Well I don't know if it is..! I was just commenting tongue in cheek....
> 
> Like much chamber music, it's introverted nature and the lack of the balls out approach of the symphonic form makes it less exciting for the masses to laud. The intensity of Voces Intimae is too demanding - or was way too demanding for me when I was in school, I couldn't get into it. Wind on another decade and I'll probably return to it to discover something akin to the elegiac otherworldliness of the Faure quartet; or the intensely lyrical form of the complete string quartet cycle of the Myaskovskian worldview, neither of which are torch songs or anthems to rouse the masses
> 
> I'd always wondered if Sibelius' Voces intimae was coined after he discovered he had throat cancer. Whereas the Myaskovskian world reveals elegiac beauty and melancholy, and the Faurean universe, a dignified and ethereal beauty, Sibelius' quartet works reveal .... a funeral dirge. His musical biographers seem to take a more technical slant regarding the title epithet 'voces intimae' and point to the contrapuntal technique in his Adagio, however it's hard not to think that such inspiration was drawn from his own life and circumstances and cancer. That D minor quartet does however stand out from the other string ditties he wrote, so much so that his inconsistency in the string quartet form becomes very apparent. Student works are okay to listen to; many a composer returns to their original student essays to rework them, instead of torturing the world with its legacy. Or torturing themselves with such a dire starting point. However the patience that the Voces intimae requires....is not insubstantial. Its rewards for the listener are likely to be just as sublime as Faure's single masterpiece. I'm just not there yet
> 
> No idea about his piano music. I'm thankful I don't have to listen to that sort of stuff


"It turned out as something wonderful. The kind of thing that brings a smile to your lips at the hour of death. I will say no more."

That was Jean Sibelius writing to his wife about his satisfaction with Voces intimae.

With a quote like this and keeping in mind that it premiered in 1910 (by then his cancer had certainly been diagnosed), it would seem tempting to take an intense work like this quartet and try to link it to illness, but I would caution against it. Same for the 4th Symphony, by the way, which premiered a year later. These are not necessarily works describing the anguish of having a potentially terminal medical condition. Notwithstanding, I have little doubt the composer's mood at the time influenced the textures of these works. There is a tendency to read too much into Sibelius's non-programmatic works (the symphonies certainly belong in this category) and we should exercise the same caution with Voces intimae.

I actually do not see Voces intimae as very dark, by the way. But nor is it lighthearted. It exists in a very gray fog, stuck somewhere between darkness and light. It's a mysterious work and therein lies the appeal for me.

I urge anyone who has heard that Sibelius's piano works are garbage to REALLY make an attempt to hear some samples. YouTube actually has some amount of Sibelius piano works available. While Sibelius may not be the Nordic Chopin, one will soon discover, I think, he was no slouch on the keyboard either. A work does not have to be a non plus ultra masterpiece in order to be worthwhile, or indeed, good.


----------



## Tapkaara

A nice performance of the Allegretto of Voces intimae.


----------



## Head_case

Tapkaara said:


> "It turned out as something wonderful. The kind of thing that brings a smile to your lips at the hour of death. I will say no more."
> 
> That was Jean Sibelius writing to his wife about his satisfaction with Voces intimae.


Loollll. He wouldn't happen to have some undeclared interests, would he? 



> With a quote like this and keeping in mind that it premiered in 1910 (by then his cancer had certainly been diagnosed), it would seem tempting to take an intense work like this quartet and try to link it to illness, but I would caution against it. Same for the 4th Symphony, by the way, which premiered a year later. These are not necessarily works describing the anguish of having a potentially terminal medical condition. Notwithstanding, I have little doubt the composer's mood at the time influenced the textures of these works. There is a tendency to read too much into Sibelius's non-programmatic works (the symphonies certainly belong in this category) and we should exercise the same caution with Voces intimae.


Yes....don't worry, I was just wondering. Although cancer does affect mood regulation too. A composer's work is not independent of life's changes around a composer: the best composers respond to these, rather than ignore these.



> I actually do not see Voces intimae as very dark, by the way. But nor is it lighthearted. It exists in a very gray fog, stuck somewhere between darkness and light. It's a mysterious work and therein lies the appeal for me.


That's a great way to put it. Which quartet are you listening to? I've had the Sibelius Academy Quartet and the Voces Quartet versions, as well as the Gabrieli (great crystalline recording and playing) and the New Helsinki Quartet groups. I'm not sure whom Sibelius intended for his audience, but it probably wasn't teenagers and 20s somethings. Being stuck in a very grey fog, somewhere between darkness and light' is one way to describe blandness in music. That is how his Voces Intimae came across to me for over a decade. Maybe there's more of that intrinsic 'mystery' in music, rather than problematic mysteriousness, where a listener has no clue as to where the music is meandering, against a grey or bleak landscape. Given my penchant for modern music of this idiom, I'm surprised I didn't like it anymore than I do.

Sounds like it's time to revisit it and see what else I can draw from it. It's great to hear your experience of it too, otherwise the rest of us would stay stuck in our fixed dislikes of Sibelius' chamber quartets.


----------



## jurianbai

Voices intimidate is a great string quartet in my opinion. I am not fans of post romantic works but this set and also the string quartet in Am from Sibelius, I can stand. My works is by Julliard String quartet.


----------



## Sid James

Haven't heard_ Voces Intimae_ & just missed a live performance of it in Sydney last year by the Australian Chamber Orchestra. But I'm looking forward to hearing it at some stage, especially as I quite like string quartets generally. My favourites so far would have to be those by Janacek, Carter, Berg, Lutoslawski & Tippett, to name five...


----------



## Tapkaara

jurianbai said:


> Voices intimidate is a great string quartet in my opinion. I am not fans of post romantic works but this set and also the string quartet in Am from Sibelius, I can stand. My works is by Julliard String quartet.


Voices INTIMIDATE? Hahahaha...I think you mean INTIMATE Voices...

I must say that Voces intimae really is a great work and it confirms, yet again, why I love Sibelius so much. It is highly original without having to resort to brazen impudence and sleazy effects (as so much music of the time was wont to do) and really communicates, I think, something remarkable with its intimate voices. It is a Rolls Royce of early 20th century string quartets. A black Rolls Royce, of course. In the fog.

Andre: Do a search of "voces intimae sibelius" on YouTube and expose yourself to this music. Don't wait for it to come back to Australia!!


----------



## jurianbai

Tapkaara said:


> Voices INTIMIDATE? Hahahaha...I think you mean INTIMATE Voices...


waaait.. I'ved using that word for ages.........

naah, I would like to see comments on Carl Nielsen SQ no.1 also. I think, especially the third movement,this is also wonderful.


----------



## Head_case

Andre said:


> Haven't heard_ Voces Intimae_ & just missed a live performance of it in Sydney last year by the Australian Chamber Orchestra. But I'm looking forward to hearing it at some stage, especially as I quite like string quartets generally. My favourites so far would have to be those by Janacek, Carter, Berg, Lutoslawski & Tippett, to name five...


Chamber Orchestra? 

Was it transcribed for a larger group or something? That would be way too many voices! 

Do as the OP says - and get a hold of Sibelius' last string quartet. The Sibelius Academy Quartet version is very good too. I think I'll stick with the Gabrieli Quartet. The New Helsinki Quartet have a great version of Grieg's quartet: two very different kettle of quartet.


----------



## Taneyev

Try last Sibelius SQ by old Budapest (1933), Excelent IMHO.


----------



## Head_case

some of the Budapest string quartet efforts are just incredible! Shame about the vintage recording. 

I get very confused though. Is there any relation between the Budapest String Quartet; the New Budapest Quartet; the Hungarian Quartet, and the New Hungarian Quartet (or did I just make that last one up?). 

The Busch Quartet are very memorable for their name though. I discovered them when news of the Iraq war broke out.


----------



## Taneyev

There was only one Budapest quartet, whose composition change several times since the 10s. The New Budapest no relation. Hungarian was an old ensamble, one of the best of the 4os.and 50s, His LvB complete is legendary. The New Hungarian no relation.


----------



## Machiavel

Hi I know i'm not in the right place to ask but still its about sibelius. I want to buy a complete symphonies set and I don't know which to buy. so which of these one should I buy:

Simon rattle complete symphonies with city of birmingham symphony orchestra 2007 (emi classics)

boston orchestra with collins davis (philips) or bernstein with new york philarmonic recorded 1961-67 (sony). Would really like some help or suggestions since I hardly knows sibelius and what to search for


----------



## Tapkaara

Machiavel said:


> Hi I know i'm not in the right place to ask but still its about sibelius. I want to buy a complete symphonies set and I don't know which to buy. so which of these one should I buy:
> 
> Simon rattle complete symphonies with city of birmingham symphony orchestra 2007 (emi classics)
> 
> boston orchestra with collins davis (philips) or bernstein with new york philarmonic recorded 1961-67 (sony). Would really like some help or suggestions since I hardly knows sibelius and what to search for


The symphonies are not chamber works, I'm afraid.


----------



## Aramis

By the way, does any Tapkaara know where (in the web) it would be possible to find translated (into english) lyrics from Sibelius songs?


----------



## joen_cph

> By the way, does any Tapkaara know where (in the web) it would be possible to find translated (into english) lyrics from Sibelius songs?


 Sorry for intruding; but in general terms, the site "The Lied and Art Song Texts Page" seems to be dedicated to the subject of song texts, and luckily it is possible to search by composer there, also Sibelius. A lot of songs/texts will turn up:

http://www.recmusic.org/lieder/s/sibelius.html

Quite often the texts are found in both their original language and with translations ino other languages.

But perhaps there is a specific site devoted to Sibelius songs, I don´t know.

Alternatively, and much more painstaking, Googling the initial lines of a song text wil sometimes make references or various analytic texts pop up.


----------



## Tapkaara

Aramis said:


> By the way, does any Tapkaara know where (in the web) it would be possible to find translated (into english) lyrics from Sibelius songs?


Hmmm, I do not necessarily know of any online resource for this but I can hook you up if need be. I have the lyrics in the liner notes of my CDs, and rest assured, I have just about most (if not all) of Sibelius's songs in my collection.


----------



## Aramis

Hmm... I have 30 songs, most of which are translated to english at page that joen_cph mentioned - thanks a lot. 

I don't think it is necessary to bother you, Tapkaara, just for those few that are not translated, especially if there is a chance that I can somehow find original poems (I guess that is where Sibelius took to lyrics from) via google. 

Thanks for the advance, definite case, forward march


----------



## Ian Elliott

Lemminkainen and the Maidens of Saari. Symphonies 1 - 7. Opera, The Maiden in the Tower. Kullervo. Luonnatar. Violin Concerto. Pohjola's Daughter. Tapiola.


----------



## myaskovsky2002

I hate this guy!

When I was 18 I went to Helsinki and asked to see his grave...Nothing easier...I went to *Ainola*, many kilometers by bus...Finally I got to a big fores plenty of snow (about 40 cm!) and I saw a notice saying the family left for vacation.....GRGRGRGRGRGRGRG...Enough for hating him all my life.
LOL

I like his music but some (e.g.: symphony no. 7) arevery sad...He was a sad guy I think...

Martin


----------



## Jean Christophe Paré

I particularly like his sixth symphony.


----------



## World Violist

I think my current "best of Sibelius" list consists of symphonies 3, 4, 6, and 7, the violin concerto, and Tapiola.


----------



## motpasm23

Can't believe no one has said Symphony 5 (unless I didn't read closely enough). My favorite 5th Symphony after only Beethoven (ahead of Prokofiev by a hair). 

And if you like the movie "Elf" you may recognize the Swan theme...


----------



## Art Rock

...or if you know the song Beach baby by the First Class, because they use the swan theme from Sibelius' fifth as well....


----------



## Aksel

As just about everyone else, I do recommend the Symphonies and the violin concerto, but his choral pieces are rather good as well.

Recommended choral pieces:
Snöfrid, Op. 29
Rakastava, JS 160a
Män från slätten och havet, Op. 65a
Fridolins dårskap, JS 84
Jone havsfärd, JS 100


----------



## Delicious Manager

My list of 'the best of Sibelius' would comprise:

Pelleas & Melisande
Rakastava
String Quartet in D minor (_Voces intimae_)(a great work that hardly anyone knows!)
Swanwhite
Symphonies 4, 6, 7
Tapiola
Violin Concerto
The Wood Nymph


----------



## jurianbai

Delicious Manager said:


> My list of 'the best of Sibelius' would comprise:
> 
> String Quartet in D minor (_Voces intimae_)(a great work that hardly anyone knows!)


but I utterly know this piece! his other string quartet in Am is also of good quality.

For his violin concerto, I think it is one of the best thing written for classical music.


----------



## World Violist

Yes, I love all of Sibelius' string quartet writing... I often prefer it over his recently more successful (among Sibelius fanatics) piano trios.


----------



## JAKE WYB

ay any attention to any top ten lists according to popularity you may find on the net as they usually contain his weakest and least characteristic music - like finlandia, valse truste and violin concerto, and second symphony for example.

You must put the swan of tounela with the oter three *lemminkainen legends *as the atmosphere brooding over that complete canvas is remarkably dramatic.

also I emphasise these -

symphonies 1, 4,5,6,7
kullervo

*The Bard*

the tempest suites 1&2
surusiotto op.111

*Tapiola *is his greatest achievement


----------



## Xaltotun

Sibelius is incredibly hard to get into, for me as well. I've managed to learn to like one piece, the violin concerto - which I think is excellent. Let me try to sum up some of the feelings I have about that piece.

There's a dark secret in Man's heart, a mystery - and the violin sort of circles around the mystery, hinting about the secret, but not confronting it directly. It gives us riddles, shapes and shadows. It teases and taunts us, and mocks our belief that Man's heart is pure and good. We hope to solve the mystery, and, at the same time, we hope that the mystery reveals that the truth about Man's heart is good - that there is at least something positive deep in the core of our being, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

The violin laughs at us sardonicly, all the while leading us further into the labyrinth of our own soul. There is a sensation of a joyful, gleeful evil - evil that is not mislead, not corrupted, not evil-with-good-intentions, not even evil because of madness - just... evil. Consciously and unapologetically evil. It tempts us, not with lies, but with shadows, riddles, and partial truths. It dares us to follow it into the very essence of our being, the dark heart of man. We begin to sense that perhaps we do not want this revelation after all. Maybe we'd rather be ignorant. This timidity is relentlessly mocked as well.

Finally, we arrive to the dark heart of the woods. It is as we had feared: the core of our being is evil. Not corrupted, but evil by definition. Selfish. Sadistic. Taking joy in the misery of others. Putting our own pleasure over the needs of others. Perhaps all our power comes from this evil, too. All action, all achievements, all will.

Yet, paradoxically, there is a great sense of relief. Our fears have come true, but at least we now know the truth. There is an evil in all of us that we can - and must - fight, every day. Maybe we can harness the power of that great will to do good. This knowledge makes any act of kindness or goodness a grand victory. But we must acknowledge that evil most definitely exists, and we should not foolishly project it to others, but admit that it is indeed in ourselves.


OK, I admit that that may sound extremely weird, but... that's what the violin concerto SCREAMS to me with every note! Starting with the seductive opening bars. "There is a secret..."


----------



## Ian Elliott

bassClef said:


> For years I was quite content with listening to his major well-known works (2nd Symphony, Finlandia, Pelleas..., Karelia, Luonnotar, Pohjola's Daughter, Lemminkainen, Valse Triste, etc) but I wasn't aware what I was missing until I delved deeper quite recently. I urge you to try these lesser-known works:
> 
> The Wood Nymph
> Snofrid
> The Tempest
> Romance in C for String Orchestra


And his sole opera, The Maiden in the Tower. The story line is dumb, even for opera, but the music is superb, and the festive ending beats Lemminkainen in my opinion,

Ian


----------



## Llyranor

I recently had the opportunity to experience Sibelius's violin concerto at a concert (I had never heard it before), and it completely blew me away. The way the violin seems to cry throughout the piece really resonated with me. This is probably one of my favorite violin concertos alongside Brahms' and the first two movements of Barber's.

I've since purchased a CD set of Sibelius' symphonies (haven't had the time to listen to them properly yet) and his violin concerto. The version I have has Salvatore Accordo as the violin, but it hasn't caught me as well as it did at the concert. I've ordered another CD with Ida Haendel playing instead, but hasn't arrived yet. Any other CD recommendations for Sibelius' violin concerto?


----------



## Manxfeeder

Xaltotun said:


> Sibelius is incredibly hard to get into, for me as well. I've managed to learn to like one piece, the violin concerto - which I think is excellent.


Interesting synopsis. I'll have to think about that the next time I hear it.

If you ever have access to a copy, I've gotten good out of David Hurwitz's Sibelius, The Orchestral Works.


----------



## jurianbai

Llyranor said:


> Any other CD recommendations for Sibelius' violin concerto?


There will be plenty, the one I enjoy is Esa Pekka Salonen + Lin Cho Liang version coupled with Nielsen's:










also can try, the same conductor + Hilary Hahn, this come with Schoenberg's:










and yet with Joshua Bell come with Goldmark's violin concerto:


----------



## Manxfeeder

Has anyone heard Ivry Gitlis playing it on Vox Legends? It was my first exposure to the concerto, so I don't know if it's as good as I think it is or if I'm just used to it.


----------



## World Violist

I don't know about any of the above recordings of the VC, but my vote goes to Kavakos/Vanska. I was raised on Heifetz's last recording, and while I appreciated the supreme technical assuredness, I didn't really like the way he breezed through some of it. Not only does Kavakos have the best of both worlds, but he also plays in a very poetic way.


----------



## jurianbai

Sibelius VC is very popular in the repertoire, I bet most of major violinist had recorded the version. For now we can watch in youtube many its version to our pleasure.

Youtube link


----------



## norman bates

i don't know his music very well but for what i've listened luonnotar is my favorite work and one of the most incredible pieces for voice that i've ever heard.


----------



## Ian Elliott

We had the first 2 symphonies on 78's. This fit the 1st symphony especially, as the music tends to separate into episodes that fit well on 78 disks. For years I regarded the hiatuses as part of the music! But I cannot claim to any superior insight in liking Sibelius without effort, because I think children are simply more flexible that way.


----------



## Rmsobin

I have at least 1 CD of every symphony of Sibelius -- but do any of you have the BEST recording list you suggest for each of the symphonies???

Preferred recordings if you will.

Thanks.


----------



## Saul_Dzorelashvili

I have always loved the first movement of Jean Sibelius' Symphony No.2.


----------



## Ian Elliott

Rmsobin said:


> I have at least 1 CD of every symphony of Sibelius -- but do any of you have the BEST recording list you suggest for each of the symphonies???
> 
> Preferred recordings if you will.
> 
> Thanks.


Sir Malcolm Sargent for the 2nd symphony for one important reason: he is the only conductor I know who takes the 3rd movement at a decent pace. Most of the other versions are way too fast, reducing the movement to a transitional passagIe between the 2nd and 4th movements. Karajan for the 7th, I think. Those are the only recommendations I feel sure of.


----------



## Ian Elliott

Me too. (My grandmother used to call me Little Me-too.)


----------



## Nix

Still have to listen to his tone poems and chamber works. The violin concerto is good, and I think finally deserving the appropriate amount of recognition (though it's far from my favorite violin concerto). Of the symphonies 3, 5, and 7 do the most for me... and they're all in similar sound. The 4th is interesting... sometimes I enjoy it a lot, other times I find that it loses it's enigmatic allure when I really pay attention to it. The first movement of 6 is just beautiful, and I think his best job of scenic painting I've heard so far. 1 and 2 are also decent (they're all good really).


----------



## Weston

Sorry for the necro-posting, but I have a new Sibelius question. Does anyone know the etymology of the name "Sibelius?" I understand that changing his name to the French "Jean" was a conscious decision, but how would a Latinized name like "Sibelius" wind up in Finland? It certainly has an important ring to it, like Stradivarius, or Praetorius. I'm always curious about these things.


----------



## World Violist

Weston said:


> Sorry for the necro-posting, but I have a new Sibelius question. Does anyone know the etymology of the name "Sibelius?" I understand that changing his name to the French "Jean" was a conscious decision, but how would a Latinized name like "Sibelius" wind up in Finland? It certainly has an important ring to it, like Stradivarius, or Praetorius. I'm always curious about these things.


I don't have my copy of Andrew Barnett's biography with me right now, since I recall it explains this very well, but I think Jean Sibelius' grandfather or somebody latinized the name from the original "Sibbe." Not sure entirely why, maybe a similar reason as Johan to Jean. I'll come back to this when I have the book with me tomorrow, but that's the gist.

Edit: Hey, what do know... your post is exactly one year after the last one.  (Edit 2: at least in my time zone it is)


----------



## Tapkaara

World Violist said:


> I don't have my copy of Andrew Barnett's biography with me right now, since I recall it explains this very well, but I think Jean Sibelius' grandfather or somebody latinized the name from the original "Sibbe." Not sure entirely why, maybe a similar reason as Johan to Jean. I'll come back to this when I have the book with me tomorrow, but that's the gist.
> 
> Edit: Hey, what do know... your post is exactly one year after the last one.  (Edit 2: at least in my time zone it is)


The original name "Sibbe" comes from a plot of land that had belonged to the family. The name is of Swedish rather than Finnish origin. In the Nordic countries it was common to Latinize your family name (simply add -lius) to elevate your status. Thus, the name "Sibelius" was born.

Jean Sibelius has a much more refined _je ne sais quoi _ compared to Janne Sibbe. (How provincial would THAT have sounded?)


----------



## Tapkaara

Has anyone ever heard the fairly obscure orchestral work Cassazione (1904)? I've always liked it a lot, though it is far from his best work.






The opening is said to resemble the James Bond theme, as the Guardian in the UK points out:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/tomserviceblog/2010/sep/15/jean-sibelius-james-bond

Anyone care for a spy mission in the frozen north of Finland?


----------



## Manxfeeder

Tapkaara said:


> The opening is said to resemble the James Bond theme, as the Guardian in the UK points out:
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/tomserviceblog/2010/sep/15/jean-sibelius-james-bond
> 
> Wow, it sure does.


----------



## Manxfeeder

Tapkaara said:


> The opening is said to resemble the James Bond theme, as the Guardian in the UK points out:


Wow, it sure does!


----------



## kv466

Lukecash12 said:


> This might be surprising, but Glenn Gould played Sibelius fantastically:


Not surprising in the least...thanks for posting


----------



## Tapkaara

Glenn Gould, no less, was a champion of Sibelius's piano music. Sibelius's piano output is probably the most maligned of any major composer. A Sibelius fan such as myself, then, gets a little warm in the heart to know that at least one major pianist was such an advocate.

Gould said of Sibelius's piano music: "Sibelius never wrote against the grain of the keyboard."


----------



## Aramis

His F major sonata is indeed worth of advocation. I remember that he didn't think of piano too high but some of his piano pieces truely make serious competition for Grieg.


----------



## Tapkaara

Aramis said:


> His F major sonata is indeed worth of advocation. I remember that he didn't think of piano too high but some of his piano pieces truely make serious competition for Grieg.


It is true, Sibelius was not the biggest fan of the piano. (Could this be why there is no piano concerto in his output?)


----------



## Aramis

I've found interesting advertisement:










is it still actuall? I would like to sign up for these lessons


----------



## Tapkaara

Aramis said:


> I've found interesting advertisement:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> is it still actuall? I would like to sign up for these lessons


Sibelius wasn't enthusiastic about teaching, either. But I am sure music lessons from him would have been quite an experience. What I wouldn't give to choke down a stogie with the Finnish master and hear his thoughts on theory...


----------



## Conor71

Tapkaara said:


> Has anyone ever heard the fairly obscure orchestral work Cassazione (1904)? I've always liked it a lot, though it is far from his best work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The opening is said to resemble the James Bond theme, as the Guardian in the UK points out:
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/tomserviceblog/2010/sep/15/jean-sibelius-james-bond
> 
> Anyone care for a spy mission in the frozen north of Finland?


I have the Cassazione but I dont think I have listen to it closely before - will check it out next!


----------



## Tapkaara

Sibelius, Stokowski and Shakespeare. Three great names, to be sure. But what happens when you mix all of them together? You get music from The Tempest!

Sibelius's hauntung Berceuse from his incidental music to The Tempest conducted by Leopold Stokowski. What do you guys think?


----------



## Aramis

Sometimes old recording quality affects listening in positive way. This is good example of such situation. Sound of violins and clarinet gets specific charm from it.


----------



## Tapkaara

Aramis said:


> Sometimes old recording quality affects listening in positive way. This is good example of such situation. Sound of violins and clarinet gets specific charm from it.


I agree! The pops on the recording add a dark atmosphere to music that's already pretty dark.


----------



## Aramis

Here is my new poem about Sibelius:

Sibelius, Sibelius, tęgi ogrodnik,
Kwiaty hoduje nowe i dzikie,
Lecz nie rzuca swych nasion na chodnik!

Do you like it?


----------



## Tapkaara

Aramis said:


> Here is my new poem about Sibelius:
> 
> Sibelius, Sibelius, tęgi ogrodnik,
> Kwiaty hoduje nowe i dzikie,
> Lecz nie rzuca swych nasion na chodnik!
> 
> Do you like it?


Poland, the nation of poets. And sausage.


----------



## Aramis

Rakastava is an interesting composition. Today's discovery and another inspiration for writing my own serenade for strings - Rakastava sounds so diffrent from other pieces I had in mind so far, raw, yet sublime harmonies and enterances of cellos, all in characteristic "nordic" style. Certainly it will influence my forthcoming work. Too bad it's so short. Or perhaps that's another plus. Too short, just like the meeting it describes from the perspective of lover is.


----------



## Tapkaara

Aramis said:


> Rakastava is an interesting composition. Today's discovery and another inspiration for writing my own serenade for strings - Rakastava sounds so diffrent from other pieces I had in mind so far, raw, yet sublime harmonies and enterances of cellos, all in characteristic "nordic" style. Certainly it will influence my forthcoming work. Too bad it's so short. Or perhaps that's another plus. Too short, just like the meeting it describes from the perspective of lover is.


Rakastava is an early work from Sibelius. In it's original form, it was written for voice as well as strings. The piece always seemed bittersweet to me.


----------



## Ukko

Tapkaara said:


> Sibelius, Stokowski and Shakespeare. Three great names, to be sure. But what happens when you mix all of them together? You get music from The Tempest!
> 
> Sibelius's hauntung Berceuse from his incidental music to The Tempest conducted by Leopold Stokowski. What do you guys think?


This music is right up Stoky's alley: lushness with details to highlight.


----------



## Aramis

Tapkaara said:


> Rakastava is an early work from Sibelius. In it's original form, it was written for voice as well as strings. The piece always seemed bittersweet to me.


I know that, I've read the story somewhere. It seems that it was rewritten for string orchestra later in his life and "op. 14" is deceiving.


----------



## notreally

Could anyone recommend recordings of the symphonies (not a cycle - individual recordings)?


----------



## DavidMahler

Sibelius Top 5:

5. Symphony 7
4. Tapiola
3. Symphony 2
2. Violin Concerto
1. Symphony 5 <3


----------



## DavidMahler

I know you didnt ask for a cycle, but i happen to like Vanska's


----------



## Aksel

DavidMahler said:


> I know you didnt ask for a cycle, but i happen to like Vanska's


I do too. Especially the first two symphonies.


----------



## Rapide

I think his violin concerto is quite special but so sure about his symphonies.


----------



## Rmsobin

I starting listening to Sibelius years ago . . . and enjoy all of it.

I have been collecting as much as I can get my hands on. What I own and what I can obtain from the Public Library system.

Then I have placed in on my I-Mac with I-Tunes. 

So far:

Finlandia
Belshazzar's Feast
Dance Intermezzo
Karelia Suite
Kullervo
Song to Lemminkainen
Lemminkainen Suite
Maan Virsi
Night Ride & Sunrise
Oceanides
Oma Maa
Pan & Echo
Pelleas Et Melisande
Pohjola's Daughter
Sandels
String Quartet in a
String Quartet in Bb
String Quarter in d, Voces Intimae
String Quartet in Eb
Swanwhite Suite
En Saga
Symphony 1
Symphony 2
Symphony 3
Symphony 4
Symphony 5
Symphony 6
Symphony 7
Tapiola
The Bard
The Dryad
Swan of Tuoneia
Vainon Virsi
Valse Triste 
Violin Concerto

In numerous cases, I have several different versions of the above. 

I would not want to cut any out. I like them all for one reason or another.

Also, having them on I-Tunes I can play them in an instant. No fooling around with cases, shelving them, looking for them, etc. On my hard drive of the computer.

In fact, if a symphony has 4 movements, I-Tunes calls that 4 songs. Right now I have 11,223 songs of classical music on my I-Tunes listing on my computer. Or, as they say at the bottom, 42.5 days, 66.37 GB

Happy listening all . . .


----------



## Tapkaara

Rmsobin said:


> I starting listening to Sibelius years ago . . . and enjoy all of it.
> 
> I have been collecting as much as I can get my hands on. What I own and what I can obtain from the Public Library system.
> 
> Then I have placed in on my I-Mac with I-Tunes.
> 
> So far:
> 
> Finlandia
> Belshazzar's Feast
> Dance Intermezzo
> Karelia Suite
> Kullervo
> Song to Lemminkainen
> Lemminkainen Suite
> Maan Virsi
> Night Ride & Sunrise
> Oceanides
> Oma Maa
> Pan & Echo
> Pelleas Et Melisande
> Pohjola's Daughter
> Sandels
> String Quartet in a
> String Quartet in Bb
> String Quarter in d, Voces Intimae
> String Quartet in Eb
> Swanwhite Suite
> En Saga
> Symphony 1
> Symphony 2
> Symphony 3
> Symphony 4
> Symphony 5
> Symphony 6
> Symphony 7
> Tapiola
> The Bard
> The Dryad
> Swan of Tuoneia
> Vainon Virsi
> Valse Triste
> Violin Concerto
> 
> In numerous cases, I have several different versions of the above.
> 
> I would not want to cut any out. I like them all for one reason or another.
> 
> Also, having them on I-Tunes I can play them in an instant. No fooling around with cases, shelving them, looking for them, etc. On my hard drive of the computer.
> 
> In fact, if a symphony has 4 movements, I-Tunes calls that 4 songs. Right now I have 11,223 songs of classical music on my I-Tunes listing on my computer. Or, as they say at the bottom, 42.5 days, 66.37 GB
> 
> Happy listening all . . .


You mentioned some rarities in that list. Good for you! It's always nice to come across others who have heard more than the standard symphonies and tone poems. Swan White, in particular, has always been a favorite.


----------



## Llyranor

His violin concerto is my favorite composition in the entire romantic repertoire.

All his symphonies are great. He is my favorite symphonist. He has somewhat of a minimalist style that I really like (but took some getting used to).

Aside from that, I haven't explored much yet (that's in the plans). I quite like his op56 string quartet, especially the last movement.


----------



## Guest

Type "sibelius vanska" in iTunes. Complete symphonies plus violin concerto plus Lemminkainnen suites plus En Saga plus Snofrid (!!!) plus Tapiola - all for ten bucks. Possibly cheaper elsewhere.


----------



## Guest

Here's the artwork:


----------



## tahnak

Aramis said:


> Sometimes old recording quality affects listening in positive way. This is good example of such situation. Sound of violins and clarinet gets specific charm from it.


 Yes! I have over eight hundred vinyl records both on 45RPM and 331/3RPM and I cherish each one on my Cosmic turntable , interpreted by my Shure Stylus and Nakamichi amplifier with Arphi speakers that give 300 Watts per channel. CDs cannot even come close to the sound and the magic of the orchestra.


----------



## tahnak

Tapkaara said:


> tahnak said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maazel is persona non grata, for the most part, in the world of Sibelius. I guess his interpretations are unconventional, but it's there that I find the refreshment. He has a very burly, manly take on Sibelius that I appreciate.
> 
> 
> 
> The people who do not understand Maazel's readings of Sibelius are not aware of what they have not understood. I have his entire Sibelius cycle with Wiener Philharmoniker on London labels and vinyl. No one has improved on those performances. They are magnificent.
Click to expand...


----------



## tahnak

This is a beautiful rendition of the Swan of Tuonela that makes me cry every time I listen to it.


----------



## scsazak

The first CD I ever bought for my collection was Leila Josefowicz's performance of Sibelius' Violin Concerto with Sir Neville Marriner and the Academy of St. Martins in the Fields. I was just out of high school, I guess. I am a mere enthusiast but as an avid listener, I find Sibelius' works to "amplify" emotion. Whatever you're feeling, Sibelius somehow manages to amplify its magnitude. 

Admittedly, none of his other works affected me to the extent the Violin Concerto did and I now believe that there are a variety of better titles than Josefowicz's rather harsh interpretation and what I believe is a poorly-engineering record. I find Mullova's performance mesmerizing but Bell, Midori and a number of others have had enthralling performances of the piece as well.

Sibelius has been subjected to much criticism for his unique ways with form and tonality but I regard them as testament to his musical genius. Elsewhere, Tapkaara had pointed out that Sibelius always gets strong reactions from people, positive and negative. That, I believe, is that thing I was trying to say about his "amplifying" effect and that ought to be Sibelius' distinctive genius. Music is a prod to introspection and hence, good music is more reflective than pleasant. The flurry of "strong" reactions Sibelius has garnered alone testifies to his great genius.


----------



## Manxfeeder

tahnak said:


> This is a beautiful rendition of the Swan of Tuonela that makes me cry every time I listen to it.


Did anyone ever find out who did this recording?


----------



## samurai

tahnak said:


> Tapkaara said:
> 
> 
> 
> The people who do not understand Maazel's readings of Sibelius are not aware of what they have not understood. I have his entire Sibelius cycle with Wiener Philharmoniker on London labels and vinyl. No one has improved on those performances. They are magnificent.
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely spot on!
Click to expand...


----------



## Crudblud

I just realised that I have 9 recordings of the 2nd symphony. That's a bloody good symphony.


----------



## Moscow-Mahler

Well, Vanska recorded 2 and 5... Has anyone heard it yet? It's aviable for downloading, though I will wait for the disk. That strange man David H. gave the 7/9 to that album. I have mixed feelings about Vanska's Beethoven, I love Jarvi's more - and I prefer Brautigam, not Sudbin in Beethoven's piano concerti, but I'm going to try Vanska's new Sibelius.


----------



## Tero

Weston said:


> Sorry for the necro-posting, but I have a new Sibelius question. Does anyone know the etymology of the name "Sibelius?" I understand that changing his name to the French "Jean" was a conscious decision, but how would a Latinized name like "Sibelius" wind up in Finland? It certainly has an important ring to it, like Stradivarius, or Praetorius. I'm always curious about these things.


Sibbe was the farm name. The family took it in 1759 as last name. The -lius is an educated sounding end. I have known both Simelius and Sivenius people.
The family tree and names are here.
http://www.sibelius.fi/suomi/suku_perhe/suku_sibelius.htm

Many families took a Swedish name if they moved to the city. Apprentices had to learn Swedish. In rural ares it went by region, so Sibbe, the farm is in an area with Swedish speakers: Porvoo and Loviisa.

My mother's side had the names Bäckmann and also Helander, both Swedish names. There was a mix of Finnish and Swedish speakers, but the Swedish names were just custom in the 1800s. My families had lost all Swedish by 1930 though one grandpa spoke it as a kid.


----------



## Tero

I've had it on iPod for a month. A burned a disc to play in car as mp3. I have yet to play in the stereo. Actually, I ordered the symphony set on BIS on CD, but the download comes with many add ons. I will have to burn a disc of those everntually.


----------



## Stargazer

I'm personally a big fan of his 7th symphony. Really though all of his symphonies are great! I never really got into his violin concerto myself but it gets pretty good responses from a lot of people.


----------



## Tero

Same here. I'm into orchestral music of the period, or maybe string quartets. I don't "get" most violin concertos after 1750.


----------



## Polyphemus

Symphonies 1 & 2
Karelia Suite
violin Concerto


----------



## elgar's ghost

I really like Luonnotar - and pretty remiss of me it is not to have investigated some of his other vocal works.


----------



## Tero

Got the Oramo set today. The younger conductors may not get attention at first, but these sound OK too. But the disc with a Symphony at the top looks really like a fine set.
Symphony 5
Karelia Suite
Pohjola's Daughter
The Bard

Add En Saga to that and you have a fine set. Symphony 7 and Tapiola with some lighter material would also make a fine disc.


----------



## Roberto

Lisztfreak said:


> I don't know, for all the possible complaints about Sibelius' orchestration his music sounds to me like pure velvet. So rafined and so well-polished. He's got a special, unique sound that, after a few months of listening experience one cannot mistake for any other composer.
> 
> And visually, I can really see Finland behind his symphonies and tone poems. The birch and spruce forests, the clearings, the little lakes and the dazzlingly blue sky above everything.
> 
> Every single of his symphonies is a jewel. I love them. The one I love least is the most popular one - No.2.
> Also the 'Voces intimae' quartet, En Saga, Tapiola, Oceanides and the Violin Concerto are real musts.


Well said. The symphonies I like least though are the 4th and 6th, at least at present. The 2nd may be sprawling but has some great things. It's interesting how listeners really do associate his music with images of Finland. But I think it would be more accurate to say that he conjures up the primitive North rather than, necessarily, Finland itself: the whole Scandinavian-Teutonic-Russian north is what I mean. Whether this is because of the already-acquired associations of elements of the Russian and Wagnerian schools, or whether it is because of the suggestions of cold, bleakness, harshness in the music itself, I'm not sure. Or rather, I am sure that it must be both. But I think he does this better than almost any other composer, if not any other at all.


----------



## Tero

I'm OK with the symphonies. Two has great parts, but 1 and 2 are still the two that I have the most trouble getting through the entire work. I like 7 for the contrast, but it has very little "hummable" melody. 

Unlike many, I really like the 4th. I guess you have to be a Finn to experience the gloom properly.


----------



## Taneyev

Just discover on YouTube Sibeliu's Theme and variations for solo cello (!!). Rare stuff.


----------



## Arsakes

I mostly like his symphonies in this order: 2>1>6>3>5 

Also:
Pohjola's Daughter;
Karellia overture
The Bard
Violin Concerto
The Oceanides
En Saga
Kung Kristian II suite
The Swan of Tuonela
String Quartet "Voces Intimae"
String Quartet in A minor
Piano Quintet in G minor
Piano Trio "Korpo"
Sonata in F Major (JS 178)
Sonata in F Major (Op.12)


----------



## Jaws

Been trying to acquire the taste for music by Sibelius for about 40 years. Still don't like it. I can understand if someone else is finding it a bit difficult.....


----------



## Tero

It took me about the 40 years. He lies between Stravisnky and Tchaikovsky. I lean more toward the Stravinsky end. Not by volume or chaos, more the style. Romantic rarely works for me.

For the 40 years I had the minimalist collection: 3 pieces. Finlandia was always a fine piece for me.


----------



## Fugue

Have a look at Salonen conducting the 5th Symphony and look at the rapture on his face at 08:45...






Now that's a man enjoying himself!


----------



## Tero

How does the Salonen rate on CD?
I go for the sets, at least 2 discs. For shelf space. But I can make an exception.


----------



## Tero

Sibelius and Goldmark pair looks attractive
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000031WU2/ref=dm_dp_cdp?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1339242451&sr=1-7


----------



## Tero

Probably the best recording of Sibelius symphonies is Segerstam, but I am listening to the 1-4 set of Berglund, and it has stood the test of time well. Vänskä is needed as he is quite the completist, recording early versions. Järvi with Gotherburg is fine too.


----------



## Tero

The well known Järvi and Askenazy recordings are fine. Davis is fine I think, I only have half. This week sticking to Helsinki and Berglund. Berglund has several sets. I have it in two 2CD pairs. The box set is harder to find.

Not forgetting Karajan. Get the 2CD sets, the 3 CD box with Kamu is oddly compiled for tracks. Unless you just put them all in an iPod playlist off the three discs.


----------



## KRoad

Rmsobin said:


> I starting listening to Sibelius years ago . . . and enjoy all of it.
> 
> I have been collecting as much as I can get my hands on. What I own and what I can obtain from the Public Library system.
> 
> Then I have placed in on my I-Mac with I-Tunes.
> 
> So far:
> 
> Finlandia
> Belshazzar's Feast
> Dance Intermezzo
> Karelia Suite
> Kullervo
> Song to Lemminkainen
> Lemminkainen Suite
> Maan Virsi
> Night Ride & Sunrise
> Oceanides
> Oma Maa
> Pan & Echo
> Pelleas Et Melisande
> Pohjola's Daughter
> Sandels
> String Quartet in a
> String Quartet in Bb
> String Quarter in d, Voces Intimae
> String Quartet in Eb
> Swanwhite Suite
> En Saga
> Symphony 1
> Symphony 2
> Symphony 3
> Symphony 4
> Symphony 5
> Symphony 6
> Symphony 7
> Tapiola
> The Bard
> The Dryad
> Swan of Tuoneia
> Vainon Virsi
> Valse Triste
> Violin Concerto
> 
> In numerous cases, I have several different versions of the above.
> 
> I would not want to cut any out. I like them all for one reason or another.
> 
> Also, having them on I-Tunes I can play them in an instant. No fooling around with cases, shelving them, looking for them, etc. On my hard drive of the computer.
> 
> In fact, if a symphony has 4 movements, I-Tunes calls that 4 songs. Right now I have 11,223 songs of classical music on my I-Tunes listing on my computer. Or, as they say at the bottom, 42.5 days, 66.37 GB
> 
> Happy listening all . . .


This reads more like an advertisement for Apple in general than a comment on the composer...


----------



## Tero

List looks fine. I never get through the entire violin concerto.

I read a customer review of symphonies. He hated Sibelius synphonies. In his voice I can review this CD:
Grieg: Holberg Suite; Sibelius: Karelia Suite, Neville Marriner

This is a wonderful collection of Grieg and Sibelius. I listen to Morning Mood every day when I have my eggs and bacon. Now I can add this entire CD to my morning entertainment. I'm retired and the highlight of my day is collecting the junk mail and bills from the mail box. This disc is just perfect for me except for the Swan of Tuonela which reminds me of the Sibelius symphony that made me want to slit my wrists and I will never play again.


----------



## Andreas

I don't know if there is a composer I love more deeply than Sibelius. And still, his music remains a great mystery to me.

Sibelius is incredibly unique. He feels like an icy wedge between the Austro-German post-wagnerian bombast of Strauss and Mahler on the one side and the playful French impressionist revolution led by Debussy on the other. His early symphonies sound strangely familiar and entirely unheard of at the same time, the later ones have shed the last remaining traces of human imperfection.

A noble polyphony governs his music, yet it always remains clear and transparent. Never bloated, always reduced to the essence. He was a gifted inventor of melodies at a time when the invention of a true melody seemed to have become an almost insurmountable task for even the most talented composers.

The Fourth is probably the make or break moment in any listerner's affair with Sibelius. Luckily, one can settle for the more cheerful works. But the Fourth, the Seventh or Tapiola will tie the strongest bonds.

Herbert Bloomstedt recorded a wonderful cycle with the San Francisco Symphony during the nineties.


----------



## bigshot

I have a question... I've long been puzzled by Sibelius. I got several well regarded recordings, and it all seemed drawn out and dull... Until I heard Kajanus. It was totally different, almost cinematic in the way it expressed the feel of icy landscapes. I get the feeling that a lot of conductors approach Sibelius as pure music, rather than as evocative sound pictures. Are there any modern conductors who get the technicolor vistas right like Kajanus?


----------



## Tero

No. The tempi that Kajanus used are not much used. I have a Beecham recording from 1950s that is sort of in between.

I don't have a problem with he drawn out parts, other than while driving, falling asleep. :lol:

Not especailly fast, but try this
http://www.amazon.com/Symphonies-1-7-Finlandia-Karelia-Suite/dp/B006W7SWDW/ref=pd_sim_sbs_m_1

Ollila like fast tempos but has not done symphonies yet
http://www.amazon.com/Jean-Sibelius...id=1340232275&sr=1-1&keywords=ollila+sibelius

http://www.amazon.com/Jean-Sibelius...id=1340232275&sr=1-4&keywords=ollila+sibelius


----------



## Tero

For those that do not know the Kajanus work, here are samples
http://www.allmusic.com/album/kajanus-conducts-sibelius-vol-3-mw0001812350


----------



## Tero

I've listed all the symphony boxes. Soon the link should work.
http://www.amazon.com/lm/R3MBMY893GLGJ9/ref=cm_lm_pthnk_view?ie=UTF8&lm_bb=


----------



## Tero

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-very-best-of-sibelius/11673762?ean=730099213523

nobody writes reviews in Barnes and Noble, like they do in Amazon. But
the magazine review prompted me to get a cheap used copy of a two CD
set. Mostly for the Pohjola. I collect those!


----------



## jani

I love Sibeliuses music, he is one of the few composers really who really writes music from their most deepest& the most secret emotions. IMO.
He is able to write very dark and passionate music, his music isn't cheesy.
He has composed the best violin concerto imo.


----------



## neoshredder

Just getting into Sibelius. Already enjoying his first Symphony. I plan to listen more to him.


----------



## NightHawk

_The Swan of Tuonela_, the third of four movements or tone poems from the _Lemminkainen Suite_ of Jan Sibelius, is one of the most utterly beautiful tone poems by anybody. The entire string section goes into multiple _divisi_ in numerous places so that at times there are as many as 10 separate string lines. It is simply genius, and must be performed by a top flight orchestra. Needless to say, it also requires an English Horn player of uncommon talents.



World Violist said:


> One of the greatest symphonists of the 20th century and one of the better ones of all time (I think about top 15-20), Sibelius was also a major, MAJOR exponent of the Tone Poem. His later works, particularly the seventh symphony and Tapiola, reflect his search for melodic and thematic development to the extreme; the seventh symphony is in only one movement and Tapiola derives practically all its thematic stuff from the very first few measures, developing and naturally evolving these themes to their utmost in such a logical and beautiful way as to leave one speechless. Here are the works I particularly like by Sibelius:
> 
> Symphonies 3, 4, 6, and 7;
> Tapiola;
> Pohjola's Daughter;
> Kullervo;
> The Bard;
> In memoriam;
> Violin Concerto;
> The Oceanides;
> The Swan of Tuonela;
> String Quartet "Voces Intimae"
> 
> Any thoughts?


----------



## Tero

You should rally play all of Lemminkäinen suite. It is a 50 minute piece.


----------



## Tero

Tapkaara said:


> Sibelius, Stokowski and Shakespeare. Three great names, to be sure. But what happens when you mix all of them together? You get music from The Tempest!
> 
> Sibelius's hauntung Berceuse from his incidental music to The Tempest conducted by Leopold Stokowski. What do you guys think?


Well, it's Stokowski. I listen to Segerstam and Vänskä. Sakari and Icelandic has a muddled recorded sound.


----------



## jani

I made a group for Sibelius lovers.

http://www.talkclassical.com/groups/sibelius-fan-club.html


----------



## jani

I am still the only member of the TC Sibelius fan club? I thought that i am not the only Sibelius fan in TC.


----------



## chalkpie

http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Comp...qid=1349400833&sr=1-1&keywords=sibelius+lahti

The Complete Sibelius Symphonies on BIS by Lahti/Vanska.

It's in mp3 form (which I don't love), but it's $7.99! Anybody have this and care to comment on the sound quality of the mp3's here? I mya do do this. The CD set is like $50.


----------



## Crudblud

chalkpie said:


> http://www.amazon.com/Sibelius-Comp...qid=1349400833&sr=1-1&keywords=sibelius+lahti
> 
> The Complete Sibelius Symphonies on BIS by Lahti/Vanska.
> 
> It's in mp3 form (which I don't love), but it's $7.99! Anybody have this and care to comment on the sound quality of the mp3's here? I mya do do this. The CD set is like $50.


As long as they were encoded from either a first generation, uncompressed or lossless source, and I really can't imagine a professional company like BIS not doing that, the differences between the mp3 and the CD should be almost imperceptible unless you're running some serious high end equipment.


----------



## Andreas

Crudblud said:


> As long as they were encoded from either a first generation, uncompressed or lossless source, and I really can't imagine a professional company like BIS not doing that, the differences between the mp3 and the CD should be almost imperceptible unless you're running some serious high end equipment.


The main problem with MP3s is that there's always a fraction of a second of silence at the end of the file, which means that between two tracks there's a short gap. This is unfortunate with works that have interconnected movements, like Sibelius's Second, or with large, single-movement pieces that are slit up in several CD tracks, like the Seventh usually is.


----------



## starthrower

I found two of the individual Vanska BIS CDs at my library. I've never listened to any Sibelius, so I'm looking forward to these.


----------



## Crudblud

Andreas said:


> The main problem with MP3s is that there's always a fraction of a second of silence at the end of the file, which means that between two tracks there's a short gap.


Odd, I've ripped plenty of CDs and converted plenty of FLAC files to mp3 and never come across this phenomenon. Sounds to me like the problem is more to do with bad conversions or your media player not supporting gapless playback, given that the latter is incredibly rare if not non-existent these days, I'd say the former.


----------



## Wandering

^ true true. mp3 esp high quality 192mbps and up are excellent. It'd take a hell of a system to noticed a big differ. Some of the mp3 deals arn't as they seem though. Didn't know of the above 'bis' deal, I wonder if it was around a good while back when I made my mistake. The Mahler box flew up to 10bucks, tragic. I just got finished ordering a opera boxset from an amazon seller, a great price and well reviewed, it was chopped to a 2dsc jewel with no libretto, I'm steaming over that! just a little caution and reading of reviews and seller come will help most of the time. Amazon is still the best source I know of, most often no problem at all and well priced, the USPS also, for those in the states.


----------



## Tomislav

Xaltotun said:


> Sibelius is incredibly hard to get into, for me as well. I've managed to learn to like one piece, the violin concerto - which I think is excellent. Let me try to sum up some of the feelings I have about that piece.


I've just now joined this forum to express my thanks for sharing your thoughts on the violin concerto. This piece lights up my imagination every time and your interpretation really fits.

I stumbled upon a 1935 Heifetz/Beecham recording of the violin concerto by accident and it's since shaped my taste in classical music entirely. I am now listening to all of his works in hopes of finding something similar, but I'm finding that his concerto stands alone. Still a worthwhile exercise since I'm liking his other works, notably Symphony 4, 3 and The Swan. But nothing comes close to the violin concerto for me!


----------



## jani

It's 8th of December so today is the official "Sibelius day".


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

jani said:


> I made a group for Sibelius lovers.
> 
> http://www.talkclassical.com/groups/sibelius-fan-club.html


I'll join!

This below is a Christmas favorite in my family:


----------



## Rmsobin

On the V.C. - I have Hilary Hahn with Salomen. Listening to it right now. Sounds alive and with feeling.

Just went through parts of some of the symphonies. The 3rd movement of the 1st symphony always excites me. 

Some thing with the 1st movement of the 2nd symphony. And that great 4th movement of the 2nd sym.

Moving to ther 3rd symphony, and the way he begins the first movement is so brilliant.

Finally, Sym 7, 4th movement.


----------



## ManolitoMystiq

Sibelius 7 64-bit


----------



## nhthanh

I'm very like Vionlin Concerto of him. It's so great


----------



## Tero

Andreas said:


> The main problem with MP3s is that there's always a fraction of a second of silence at the end of the file, which means that between two tracks there's a short gap. This is unfortunate with works that have interconnected movements, like Sibelius's Second, or with large, single-movement pieces that are slit up in several CD tracks, like the Seventh usually is.


If you have the mp3's already, put them into iTunes. You can play it as a continuous album there, make a play list. Some boom box type of devices take a line in. I run a line from my laptop to the boom box on the self above me.

If I'm too lazy to get the CD. I now have Cds of all the things I had mp3s of.


----------



## arpeggio

*Third symphony*

(Note: I did a search and found several Sibelius threads. I randomly choose this one.)

Just got back from orchestra rehearsal. (Note: I play bassoon with the orchestra.) One of the works we will be performing will be the Sibelius _Third Symphony_. What an awesome work. Even though we were sight reading, I became aware of all sorts of details that I never noticed before when I just listen to a recording.

The second bassoon player and I discussed our experiences after the rehearsal.

For one thing it became obvious to us that Sibelius is a great orchestrator. For example he is very transparent. What this means is that there is very little doubling of themes. Whenever he presents a theme it is usually played by only one instrument. Many times you are sitting there resting for many measures and when you have an entrance, you are the only one playing the line. So you have to really be on your toes.

Another detail we noticed was the interrelationship between the first and second bassoon parts. In most works the second bassoon is there to back-up the first. In this piece the two bassoons are not always playing the same thing. In this work the second bassoon is playing almost as many solos as the first. For example in one section I am playing a long sustained note on a 3 (This assuming middle c is c 4). Below this the second bassoon is playing an exposed moving counter melody. So many times when one hears a bassoon solo, it is the second bassoon playing it.

The second bassoon and I were also commenting on how Sibelius used low pedal tones on the bassoon. The bassoon can play to a low Bb below the bottom of the base clef. This would be Bb 1. The bottom notes on the bassoon can be very loud. One normally has to work on his reed to adjust it to play these notes softly. Even when one plays a low C softly it can still sound like a flight of B-52 bombers. If a bassoon player has to play a long sustained C, a weak orchestrator would normally double the note in the cello, trombone or tuba part. In several sections Sibelius had the bassoons playing long sustained low notes all by themselves. Sibelius apparently understood how difficult it is for bassoons to play these notes softly. So in all of these sections the bassoon is playing at least mezzo forte. Also having the bassoons playing by themselves in support of the melody creates a unique tonal color.

I apologize for getting too technical. There are others here who can do a better job of explaining much of the technical stuff than I. If I learn anything new in future rehearsals I will post it here.


----------



## Tapkaara

arpeggio said:


> (Note: I did a search and found several Sibelius threads. I randomly choose this one.)
> 
> Just got back from orchestra rehearsal. (Note: I play bassoon with the orchestra.) One of the works we will be performing will be the Sibelius _Third Symphony_. What an awesome work. Even though we were sight reading, I became aware of all sorts of details that I never noticed before when I just listen to a recording.
> 
> The second bassoon player and I discussed our experiences after the rehearsal.
> 
> For one thing it became obvious to us that Sibelius is a great orchestrator. For example he is very transparent. What this means is that there is very little doubling of themes. Whenever he presents a theme it is usually played by only one instrument. Many times you are sitting there resting for many measures and when you have an entrance, you are the only one playing the line. So you have to really be on your toes.
> 
> Another detail we notices was the interrelationship between the first and second bassoon parts. In most works the second bassoon is there to back-up the first. In this piece the two bassoons are not always playing the same thing. In this work the second bassoon is playing almost as many solos as the first. For example in one section I am play a long sustained note on a 3 (This assuming middle c is c 4). Below this the second bassoon is playing an exposed moving counter melody. So many times when one hears a bassoon solo, it is the second bassoon playing it.
> 
> The second bassoon and I were also commenting on how Sibelius used low pedal tones on the bassoon. The bassoon can play to a low Bb below the bottom of the base clef. This would be Bb 1. The bottom notes on the bassoon can be very loud. One normally has to work on his reed to adjust it to play these notes softly. Even when one plays a low C softly it can still sound like a flight of B-52 bombers. If a bassoon player has to play a long sustained C, a weak orchestrator would normally double the note in the cello, trombone or tuba part. In several sections Sibelius had the bassoons playing long sustained low notes all by themselves. Sibelius apparently understood how difficult it is for bassoons to play these notes softly. So in all of these sections the bassoon is playing at least mezzo forte. Also having the bassoons playing by themselves in support of the melody creates a unique tonal color.
> 
> I apologize for getting too technical. There are others here who can do a better job of explaining much of the technical stuff than I. If I learn anything new if future rehearsals I will post it here.


This is GREAT! I'd like to share these comments on the Sibelius Forum...I'll bet the guys there would love to read this.


----------



## arpeggio

Go ahead. It was chance that I choose this thread.


----------



## Tero

Sibelius forum is down.

Had a concert of the 2nd yesterday. It was OK, but what I was struck with is that the 2nd and also the first are long. Sibelius leared to express ideas with much fewer notes or fewer repeats. The thing is, I can listen to the shorter works over and over and there is never a problem. The longer works I need to take a break. Two weeks later it sounds fresher again. The 1st or 2nd twice in a row (I compare conductors) is enough. I can't play ether 3 times in a row.


----------



## DaveS

On YouTube...currently listening to a 2006 recording Of Sir Colin Davis and the NYPO playing the 3rd symphony. Excellent


----------



## Tero

Listening to the long version of Tempest. There are two excellent recordings of it. The Ondine one has more famous singers. There are not that many songs. But if you are not familiar with Sibelius theater music, The Tempest and Pelleas and Melisande are the best. The suites from the Tempest are enough for most people, but I prefer the long one.


----------



## Tero

Arpeggio, why do you think the 3rd was recorded less often in the 40s and 50s? Karajan never managed to record it. On his DG box, Kamu conducts it.


----------



## arpeggio

*???????????????*



Tero said:


> Arpeggio, why do you think the 3rd was recorded less often in the 40s and 50s? Karajan never managed to record it. On his DG box, Kamu conducts it.


I do not know.  I have just perfromed the symphony a few times. I have no knowledge concerning its recording history. I only have three recording of the work in my library.

One with Mark Elder conducting the Halle Orchestra.
One with Ashkanazy conducting the Philharmonia Orchestra.
And a LP of Colin Davis conducting the Boston Symphony.


----------



## Vaneyes

HvK's Sibelius focus was primarily on 4 - 6, though he did record all except 3 with two orchestras on two labels, encompassing mono, stereo, digital.

According to Robert Layton's writings (excerpts linked), Legge had hopes to complete the cycle with Philharmonia O./HvK (EMI) for Sibelius' 90th birthday in 1955. Didn't happen, as HvK had his sights on BPO and VPO. Also, stereo was arriving, which would have made a mono cycle less attractive. Klemperer was HvK's successor at Philharmonia, but there wasn't the Sibelius chemistry or desire that existed with HvK.

http://tinyurl.com/n9l4faz

The other possibility for recording the cycle with HvK was at DG. 4 - 7 were done. 1 - 3 were on a low priority things-to-do list. It never happened.

If HvK had any positive inclination for 3, it would've been done somewhere in his decades as a leading Sibelian. I don't think it just fell through the cracks of many things to do.

It's my least-favorite Sibelius Symphony, also. I think of it as a "little symphony", almost an intermezzo to Sibelius' other symphonies. My favorite recording of it is with Oslo PO/Jansons (EMI, rec. 1994). :tiphat:


----------



## chalkpie

Riding a HUGE Sibelius wave. This guy is climbing the ladder fast. We're talkin' Ives, Mahler, Shostakovich, Ravel, etc level for me.

My buddy and I just scored tickets to see the NYP do Sib 5 on November 5th, along with Salonen's Violin Concerto and Mother Goose Suite. Gonna be a killer gig!

I also just scored these recordings from Amazon:

















I will report back with findings. On first blush I find that the Franck Lemminkainen has some "odd" tempi choices, or choices that I am not used to. The Vanska/Lahti are my reference recordings for these, and the ones I am most familiar with. I also dig me some Segerstam


----------



## Vaneyes

chalkpie said:


> ....along with Salonen's Violin Concerto....I will report back with findings....


Report back if LJ looks this good.


----------



## chalkpie

................................................


----------



## Blake

I have yet to find another composer who has mastered subtlety with such refinement.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I am not thrilled by Vänskä's interpretations of *Sibelius's *works, the Lahti SO seems to play in a manner very removed and emotionally detached, but do give a nice sound (although I haven't been as excited by the sound of Lahti SO as I am by orchestras such as the Helsinki Philharmonic in Segerstam's cycle). The best recording of *Sibelius* I have ever heard is only available in YouTube, a performance his 7th, 5th and 1st symphonies by the Vienna Philharmonic conducted by Sakari Oramo.


----------



## Blake

I quite enjoy Vanska's cycle. However, I still have others left to explore.


----------



## Pip

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I am not thrilled by Vänskä's interpretations of *Sibelius's *works, the Lahti SO seems to play in a manner very removed and emotionally detached, but do give a nice sound (although I haven't been as excited by the sound of Lahti SO as I am by orchestras such as the Helsinki Philharmonic in Segerstam's cycle). The best recording of *Sibelius* I have ever heard is only available in YouTube, a performance his 7th, 5th and 1st symphonies by the Vienna Philharmonic conducted by Sakari Oramo.


I too was blown away by this concert. So much so that I had to take a sound transcription from the YouTube site. I could not take the risk that it would not stay there.


----------



## chalkpie

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I am not thrilled by Vänskä's interpretations of *Sibelius's *works, the Lahti SO seems to play in a manner very removed and emotionally detached, but do give a nice sound (although I haven't been as excited by the sound of Lahti SO as I am by orchestras such as the Helsinki Philharmonic in Segerstam's cycle). The best recording of *Sibelius* I have ever heard is only available in YouTube, a performance his 7th, 5th and 1st symphonies by the Vienna Philharmonic conducted by Sakari Oramo.


Interesting. That's a bold statement to make when they have recorded the vast amount that constitutes the Sibelius Edition.

I love this orchestra, and these recordings. "Very removed" and "Emotionally detached" doesn't make sense to me. Are you saying that they are just going through the motions and don't give a rats *** when performing this music?


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

chalkpie said:


> Interesting. That's a bold statement to make when they have recorded the vast amount that constitutes the Sibelius Edition.
> 
> I love this orchestra, and these recordings. "Very removed" and "Emotionally detached" doesn't make sense to me. Are you saying that they are just going through the motions and don't give a rats *** when performing this music?


To me the music is performed with great attention to detail (although often crescendos and diminuendos are left out, bizarre), but with no new input from the conductor. I can't hear many instances when the conductor asks some musicians to play in certain ways to contribute to the sound and vary the sound to make it more interesting to listen to. Also, dynamics?  I looked through the scores of a few symphonies and when dynamics are specified, mainly crescendoed and diminuendos, they are hardly played at all.....just makes it sound odd to me when compared with other recordings.


----------



## Mahlerian

I haven't heard much of his Sibelius, but Vanska's recording of Bruckner's 4th is just bizarre, and I'm not referring to the Kvorstedt edition he uses (although that's weird too). There are all sorts of little micromanaged details that not only are not in the score, but don't make any sense musically, like the insertion of a caesura before the climax of the Adagio.

If his Sibelius is similar, I'd have major qualms about it for sure.


----------



## chalkpie

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> To me the music is performed with great attention to detail (although often crescendos and diminuendos are left out, bizarre), but with no new input from the conductor. I can't hear many instances when the conductor asks some musicians to play in certain ways to contribute to the sound and vary the sound to make it more interesting to listen to. Also, dynamics?  I looked through the scores of a few symphonies and when dynamics are specified, mainly crescendoed and diminuendos, they are hardly played at all.....just makes it sound odd to me when compared with other recordings.


Lack of dynamics, crescendos, decrescendos, etc?

Wow - I will have to enthusiastically but respectfully disagree! But that's cool if you feel that way. I find these recordings FULL of dynamics. Tapiola for instance - all over the place.

The Vanska recordings are desert island for me :cheers:


----------



## Blake

Vanska has a beautiful way with Sibelius, for sure. 

I also really enjoy Berglund's cycle with Bournemouth. It has a certain "bite" to it that really wakes the music up.


----------



## Vaneyes

*Sibelius Symphony No. 6* is the current victim of Tom Service's symphonic introspection. Just kidding about victim. 

Of his recommended recordings, I'd like to amend his DG BPO/HvK choice. I think the EMI BPO/HvK (rec.1980, remastered 2001) is better in performance and sound. :tiphat:

http://www.theguardian.com/music/to.../26/symphony-guide-sibelius-sixth-tom-service


----------



## Eviticus

I think Sibelius 2nd Symphony is fast becoming one of my favourite top 5 symphonies ever.


----------



## Rmsobin

World Violist said:


> One of the greatest symphonists of the 20th century and one of the better ones of all time (I think about top 15-20), Sibelius was also a major, MAJOR exponent of the Tone Poem. His later works, particularly the seventh symphony and Tapiola, reflect his search for melodic and thematic development to the extreme; the seventh symphony is in only one movement and Tapiola derives practically all its thematic stuff from the very first few measures, developing and naturally evolving these themes to their utmost in such a logical and beautiful way as to leave one speechless. Here are the works I particularly like by Sibelius:
> 
> Symphonies 3, 4, 6, and 7;
> Tapiola;
> Pohjola's Daughter;
> Kullervo;
> The Bard;
> In memoriam;
> Violin Concerto;
> The Oceanides;
> The Swan of Tuonela;
> String Quartet "Voces Intimae"
> 
> Any thoughts?


Agree with you, But . . .Do not forget Sym 1, 3rd movement. Nor, Sym 2 (the entire work). Sibelius is the composer I enjoy along with many others . . . Roger


----------



## whiteroses

On Monday night, I was at the Concertgebouw for the Vienna Phil/Chailly concert. They opened with Finlandia Op 26 and followed up with the VC performed magnificently by Leonidas Kavakos. Truly breathtaking. Kavakos' virtuosity in full display but more, importantly, he is able to touch one's spirit. And done so elegantly and simply, without any theatrics that some violinists favour. And the sound that he manages to get from his violin is truly jaw-dropping. That VC seems to cover the full range of colour, tone, atmosphere of all the Sibelius composition. So evocative of the country also.

I think I must have been too near the stage....I can hear every little extraneous sound that the musicians produced....vibration from the timpani and the bass strings, the rustle of the music sheets, etc. A bit disturbing but cannot deny the magnificent sound of ViennaPhil although imho there are better interpreters of Sibelius music. Chailly was Chailly...a bit bordering on the flamboyant...but always engaging and dedicated. Not sure how Bruckner 6th is supposed to connect with Sibelius. I would have been happy to have had Sibelius all night. Nevertheless, a superb night of musicmaking to start off the year. Happy New Year to all. wr


----------



## Avey

Has anyone heard anything like *Sibelius's* _Seventh_? That persistent development, paired with a climax that, well, _doesn't_ entirely resolve. It's so powerful. The closest I can think of is, truly, his _Fifth Symphony_, which is also characterized by incessant development to an ending that is both a release and reservation at the same time. Syncopated resolution -- I'll try that in my spare time, for stress and all. It's doubtful to work.


----------



## julianoq

Avey said:


> Has anyone heard anything like *Sibelius's* _Seventh_? That persistent development, paired with a climax that, well, _doesn't_ entirely resolve. It's so powerful. The closest I can think of is, truly, his _Fifth Symphony_, which is also characterized by incessant development to an ending that is both a release and reservation at the same time. Syncopated resolution -- I'll try that in my spare time, for stress and all. It's doubtful to work.


I think Sibelius's 7th is so original, amazing and disturbing that took his 8th symphony from us. How could he continue after that? But how I would love to listen to his 8th manuscripts at least once!


----------



## hpowders

Hey Jean. Won't bother you much. I know! I know! Eternal rest IS not to be taken lightly.
Just want to say I love the violin concerto, the third, sixth and seventh symphonies.
You can keep the rest, especially that boring Swan thing.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Rmsobin said:


> Agree with you, But . . .Do not forget Sym 1, 3rd movement. Nor, Sym 2 (the entire work). Sibelius is the composer I enjoy along with many others . . . Roger


Oh yeah!:







-- but especially for that 60's Karajan DG Tapiola!!!







-- Sir Alexander Gibson's molding of Luonnotar with Phyllis Bryn-Julson is the most majestic and enchanting I've ever heard. God I love her voice in this!!!!!







-- for the Stokowski 50's reading of the Sibelius First. It has the most heroic horns towards the end of the first movement I've ever heard. Be forewarned of the limited sound though.







-- for the Rattle/BSO Oceanides if not the First Symphony.







-- for the Oramo/BSO Pohjola's Daughter


----------



## Marschallin Blair

. . . continuing:







- for the Segerstam/Helsinki Sibelius 7-- the whole thing is marvelously beautiful-- but the last couple of minutes of it is some of the most sublime Sibelius playing I've ever heard. Wonderfully engineered sound too. Highest marks.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I am not thrilled by Vänskä's interpretations of *Sibelius's *works, the Lahti SO seems to play in a manner very removed and emotionally detached, but do give a nice sound (although I haven't been as excited by the sound of Lahti SO as I am by orchestras such as the Helsinki Philharmonic in Segerstam's cycle). The best recording of *Sibelius* I have ever heard is only available in YouTube, a performance his 7th, 5th and 1st symphonies by the Vienna Philharmonic conducted by Sakari Oramo.


Shelve thy Vanska.

Take down thy Karajan.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Mahlerian said:


> I haven't heard much of his Sibelius, but Vanska's recording of Bruckner's 4th is just bizarre, and I'm not referring to the Kvorstedt edition he uses (although that's weird too). There are all sorts of little micromanaged details that not only are not in the score, but don't make any sense musically, like the insertion of a caesura before the climax of the Adagio.
> 
> If his Sibelius is similar, I'd have major qualms about it for sure.


"Shelve thy Vanska. Take down thy Karajan"-- but I repeat myself; yeah, mutatis mutandis for Bruckner when it comes to Vanska. Ha. Ha. Ha. God, I'm sounding so ponderous and Jehovah-like.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Vaneyes said:


> HvK's Sibelius focus was primarily on 4 - 6, though he did record all except 3 with two orchestras on two labels, encompassing mono, stereo, digital.
> 
> According to Robert Layton's writings (excerpts linked), Legge had hopes to complete the cycle with Philharmonia O./HvK (EMI) for Sibelius' 90th birthday in 1955. Didn't happen, as HvK had his sights on BPO and VPO. Also, stereo was arriving, which would have made a mono cycle less attractive. Klemperer was HvK's successor at Philharmonia, but there wasn't the Sibelius chemistry or desire that existed with HvK.
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/n9l4faz
> 
> The other possibility for recording the cycle with HvK was at DG. 4 - 7 were done. 1 - 3 were on a low priority things-to-do list. It never happened.
> 
> If HvK had any positive inclination for 3, it would've been done somewhere in his decades as a leading Sibelian. I don't think it just fell through the cracks of many things to do.
> 
> It's my least-favorite Sibelius Symphony, also. I think of it as a "little symphony", almost an intermezzo to Sibelius' other symphonies. My favorite recording of it is with Oslo PO/Jansons (EMI, rec. 1994). :tiphat:


-- Thanks for the dish. I've always loved Layton's searching criticism of Scandinavian composers.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

The Stokowski's sublime. I can just FEEL Miranda's innocent, pre-lapsarian, wide-eyed Shakespearean beauty through Stokowski's handling of the strings. It's unapproachable in my view.


----------



## Vaneyes

I've probably mentioned before, but it's worth rementioning...do hear NYPO/LB Pohjola's Daughter (Sony, rec. 1964). It's my favorite version.:tiphat:


----------



## Marschallin Blair

I have it. I like it. I'm not 'enthralled' by it. :O I'd probably like it better if Decca did the recording session and not Columbia.

The Oramo/BSO is just in a separate and superior caste for me: that is to say, in terms of a fervid romantic reading and in recording quality.


----------



## Avey

hpowders said:


> Hey Jean....
> You can keep the rest, especially that boring Swan thing.


Well, that's a fairly lame comment for J.S. I don't know how many times I've announced my affinity for the _swan calls_, so I'll spare that, get a bit more serious, and share some of Sibelius's (alleged) sentiments on this masterpiece:

[From Michael Steinberg's, _The Symphony: A Listener's Guide_, this was "jotted" in Sibelius's notebook]

_'In a deep valley again. But I already begin to see dimly the mountain that I shall certainly ascend. . . . God opens His door for a moment and His orchestra plays the Fifth Symphony.'_

This is special music. This is triumphal, cathartic, and so beyond swans, Eb heroics, or incessant development. And there's nothing more comforting than realizing, through sound, that others have been in worse situations than you, fought the trees and time, and made it to the Mountain.

Thus, I dissent.


----------



## hpowders

Avey said:


> Well, that's a fairly lame comment for J.S. I don't know how many times I've announced my affinity for the _swan calls_, so I'll spare that, get a bit more serious, and share some of Sibelius's (alleged) sentiments on this masterpiece:
> 
> [From Michael Steinberg's, _The Symphony: A Listener's Guide_, this was "jotted" in Sibelius's notebook]
> 
> _'In a deep valley again. But I already begin to see dimly the mountain that I shall certainly ascend. . . . God opens His door for a moment and His orchestra plays the Fifth Symphony.'_
> 
> This is special music. This is triumphal, cathartic, and so beyond swans, Eb heroics, or incessant development. And there's nothing more comforting than realizing, through sound, that others have been in worse situations than you, fought the trees and time, and made it to the Mountain.
> 
> Thus, I dissent.


To each his own. I hate it. You love it. So goes the world.


----------



## Vaneyes

*Sibelius* Symphony 7 is dissected by you-know-who. Beecham's rec. is a good choice. :tiphat:

http://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2014/mar/18/sibelius-seventh-symphonic-scream


----------



## hpowders

Ormandy's is better, in my opinion.


----------



## Woodduck

Tapkaara said:


> Sibelius certainly evolved over his career, and his 7 symphonies are a clear indication of this. Everyone has their favorites, and in a way, it's almost shameful to admit you like either his 1st or 2nd, due to their full embrace of the Romantic/nationalist idiom. No one seems to chide Tchikovsky for his full-throated Romantic stylings, so I think it's unfair to put Sibelius down for dipping his toes into the same waters as Tchaikovsky or other such composers.


I can understand some lovers of Sibelius's more radical, mature work not liking so much his more conventionally Romantic or overtly nationalistic early stuff. After all, no one likes everything a composer does, Sibelius did evolve impressively, some people just don't care for Romantic nationalism, etc., etc. But I cherish nearly _all_ of Sibelius. Truthfully, he was something of a musical chameleon - and yet, what impresses me most about the early work influenced by Tchaikovsky, Borodin, Dvorak and whomever else, is that it doesn't for a minute actually sound like _any_ of those people. This man had one powerful personality, audible immediately in Kullervo and the first symphony in his melodic turns of phrase, his motivic development, his chord voicings, his instrumentation both cold and colorful, rich but rarely sensuous, that seems full of forest shadows and bleak tundra and winter light. Somehow his fingerprints are distinct no matter what sort of music he's writing, "heavy" or "light," and the more of it you know, the more you realize that it could only have come from him.

Yeah, I love the way Sibelius sounds!


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

julianoq said:


> I think Sibelius's 7th is so original, amazing and disturbing that took his 8th symphony from us. How could he continue after that? But how I would love to listen to his 8th manuscripts at least once!


Apparently these are some of the supposedly sketches: 



The closer we have to "Sibelius 8th Symphony style" is The Tempest, Tapiola and the Suite for violin and string orchestra. So it seems that at least the string divisi and modal counterpoint came to stay, mysterious textures, enriched harmony. Rautavaara stuff.

Did you know Sibelius owned copies of Scriabin's Prometheus and Schoenberg's Five Pieces for Orchestra scores?


----------



## chalkpie

Hey all of you Sibelius Freaks out there -

is anybody hip to the Sanderling/Moscow Phil set on Brilliant? Gotta say, I am listening to it on Spot (some of S7 and Lemmenkainen) and it sounds terrific, and different. Hard to pinpoint but I may pull the trigger. I just need that ....extra.....push. Do I really NEED another Sibelius set? :cheers:


----------



## Woodduck

chalkpie said:


> Hey all of you Sibelius Freaks out there -
> 
> is anybody hip to the Sanderling/Moscow Phil set on Brilliant? Gotta say, I am listening to it on Spot (some of S7 and Lemmenkainen) and it sounds terrific, and different. Hard to pinpoint but I may pull the trigger. I just need that ....extra.....push. Do I really NEED another Sibelius set? :cheers:


Of course you do.


----------



## chalkpie

Woodduck said:


> Of course you do.


Yeah, you're right.

Actually I just ordered it. I was listening to "The Swan" and it pushed me over the edge. $17 like new at Clamazon. I will report back in a while once I have chewed and digested this sucker.


----------



## southwood

chalkpie said:


> Hey all of you Sibelius Freaks out there -
> 
> is anybody hip to the Sanderling/Moscow Phil set on Brilliant? Gotta say, I am listening to it on Spot (some of S7 and Lemmenkainen) and it sounds terrific, and different. Hard to pinpoint but I may pull the trigger. I just need that ....extra.....push. Do I really NEED another Sibelius set? :cheers:


Not that set, but I have a budget cd of 5 tone poems by Sanderling and the Berlin Sym.Orch., and Berlin Radio Sym. Orch. I always loved it, esp. Night Ride and Sunrise and En Saga.


----------



## Vaneyes

Re *Sibelius* chamber music, do audition the three String Quartet volumes on BIS (rec.2004), performed by Tempera Qt.

From early to late, the breadth of quality pleases. :tiphat:


----------



## User in F minor

Okay, this looks pretty big. Apparently the fair copy of the first movement of the 8th symphony has been unearthed in the archives of Paul Voigt: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/music-20140401
‎


----------



## KenOC

Bad link, at least from the US. Can you please check again? Thanks!


----------



## southwood

User in F minor said:


> Okay, this looks pretty big. Apparently the fair copy of the first movement of the 8th symphony has been unearthed in the archives of Paul Voigt: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/music-20140401
> ‎


Happy April 1st to you too !:lol:


----------



## southwood

KenOC said:


> Bad link, at least from the US. Can you please check again? Thanks!


It might have something to do with today's date !


----------



## KenOC

southwood said:


> It might have something to do with today's date !


Yeah, I forgot the date! I was probably thinking about the discovery the other day of the Mozart completion of the Requiem, which was also reported on the BBC ...


----------



## Mahlerian

Sibelius is one of the few composers whose music continues to remain very mysterious to me. I can hear more or less how his symphonies work, but he puts everything together in such an idiosyncratic manner. Sometimes, I love the results, as with the 4th or the 7th symphonies, and sometimes they simply confuse me, as with the 3rd or the 6th (which are in some ways his most characteristic works).

I was listening to the 4th just now, in fact, and the whole work is an enigma. Of course I can hear the themes, I recognize the connections between the movements, and I understand that each movement comes to an uneasy close without resolving its many tensions (the second movement may have the oddest ending of any symphonic movement I know by a great composer).

The whole work is weird, formally and tonally (with its preponderance of half-diminished seventh chords channeling Tristan), and I wonder what it is that makes the result so intriguing. Needless to say, it's still my favorite Sibelius symphony, after many years.


----------



## Avey

I'll credit *CoAG*, who I believe said this previously in another thread, that the Fourth Symphony is like a dream. I think that this is a pretty succinct, accurate description.


----------



## Svelte Silhouette

The 7th is very under-rated


----------



## violadude

PoisonIV said:


> The 7th is very under-rated


It is? I thought it was often considered his greatest achievement.


----------



## Svelte Silhouette

violadude said:


> It is? I thought it was often considered his greatest achievement.


It is and that's my point as where is it in relation to Beethoven 3, 5, 6, 9 and Dvorak 9 then maybe even Tchaikovsky 6 etc etc.

It's really up there and deserves much more airplay


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

I often wonder if *The Tempest* would gain more appreciation if produced as an opera. Forget about the watered down suites, listen to the complete work (in which the vocal element plays a significant role).






Sibelius once thought of developing those themes further in a separate orchestral work, Tapiola is perhaps the closest to those lines. As mentioned previously in the thread, it gives us a glimpse of Sibelius evolving style.

It seems with *Surusoitto* op. 111b (1931), which Aino said it contains themes planned for the 8th symphony, Sibelius was getting into Hindemith territory. Op. 111a was composed earlier in 1925.






Do not miss these pieces!!


----------



## hpowders

I am not an avid Sibelius symphony listener. For me his greatest work is the violin concerto.
His greatest symphony, IMO, is his seventh and both Karajan/Philharmonia and Ormandy/Philadelphia are the most convincing performances I've heard.


----------



## chalkpie

I'm really starting to dive into the 1st symphony, especially the 2 inner movements. The second movement is truly spectacular in so many ways, and as huge of a fan(atic) as I am of JS, I guess it sort of went over me head in a manner of speaking. I also really love where he goes harmonically in the opening section of the third quick movement. Total genius, that guy.


----------



## Triplets

violadude said:


> It is? I thought it was often considered his greatest achievement.


 I think that most Sibelius listeners think of the 7th as sort of a poor relation to Tapiola, a work with which it shares many features. It took me many years to see the distinctness and greatness of the 7th.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Triplets said:


> I think that most Sibelius listeners think of the 7th as sort of a poor relation to Tapiola, a work with which it shares many features. It took me many years to see the distinctness and greatness of the 7th.


It seems to be the case for many listeners, me not included. I love the 7th. It took me some time to see the distinctness and greatness of Tapiola. While the background is intricate and gorgeous I still not fully convinced by the monothematic approach in the foreground. Both works are superbly crafted though.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Mahlerian said:


> Sibelius is one of the few composers whose music continues to remain very mysterious to me. I can hear more or less how his symphonies work, but he puts everything together in such an idiosyncratic manner. Sometimes, I love the results, as with the 4th or the 7th symphonies, and sometimes they simply confuse me, as with the 3rd or the 6th (which are in some ways his most characteristic works).
> 
> I was listening to the 4th just now, in fact, and the whole work is an enigma. Of course I can hear the themes, I recognize the connections between the movements, and I understand that each movement comes to an uneasy close without resolving its many tensions (the second movement may have the oddest ending of any symphonic movement I know by a great composer).
> 
> The whole work is weird, formally and tonally (with its preponderance of half-diminished seventh chords channeling Tristan), and I wonder what it is that makes the result so intriguing. Needless to say, it's still my favorite Sibelius symphony, after many years.


For myself, what's special in Sibelius is _the way_ in which his music touches me-- symphonic structure aside. I don't think its something music theory can adequately address. Music theory can explain the 'how' but not the 'why'-- which I feel is something that is more in the province of cognitive science or cognitive neurobiology.

I always have a high regard for that special kind of genius who can intelligently flout musical rules in the higher service of sentiment. Berlioz, Debussy, Sibelius, Stravinksy, and even some Schoenberg immediately come to mind.


----------



## hpowders

I don't "get" most Sibelius.
Some of his symphonies puzzle me-his Third, Fifth, Sixth and even the Seventh.
Yet his violin concerto is one of my all time top five violin concertos.
The man was a mystery...for me, at least.


----------



## violadude

I wrote a paper on Sibelius' 4th symphony for my "History of 20th Century music" class. It got pretty poetic-ish. I tried not to bog the paper down too much with lots of theory because that's not the vibe of the class it was written for. Anyway, here are its contents. If you struggle with his 4th it might help, or it might not, who knows. By the way, I never can think of good beginnings and endings to my papers. So they are kind of crappy, I know.

"Sibelius is one of my favorite composers of symphonies. Sibelius was one of a kind and had a very unique voice. While his style is not atonal, bi-tonal, pan diatonic or any of the other more angular types of music we tend to associate with “modernism”, most of his symphonies could hardly be called “Romantic” in the same sense that Tchaikovsky’s music is (Tchaikovsky was in fact an early influence on Sibelius though, along with Wagner). When I listen to his music, I feel almost as if his music is in its own era, not really fitting in completely with Romanticism or Modernism. 

Sibelius’ 4th symphony is by far the darkest and bleakest of all his symphonies. It also happens to be one of my favorite of his symphonies (the others being 5 and 7). One of the things that makes it so dark and bleak is the blatant and bare exploitation of the tritone. It’s a prominent element of the symphony and is often times not presented very subtly at all. One interesting thing to note is that the tritone is a focal point of the 3rd symphony. For example, the first movement of the 3rd is a sonata form movement with the first theme being in C and the 2nd theme being in F# minor. In the 3rd symphony however, the tritone takes on a more modal, folksy accent.

This piece has many qualities that are near ubiquitous in Sibelius’ music. It begins with a very low and dark sound in the low strings. They play an important figure that outlines a tritone and then continue to harp on the tritone. Out of this muddy sound comes a beautiful cello solo. From around the 1:30 mark to the 2:40 mark comes the first of Sibelius’ signature slow powerful buildups. It’s a miniature version and not the most powerful in the symphony but it is a foretaste of what is to come. Some of the higher strings take on the rising and falling figures that were present in the cello solo and continue to build on those figures.This builds into a strange and tense chord. In a brilliant move of orchestration, the string section “melts” into the brass section and the trombone(?) continues to resolve the chord, only to be foiled by a low dissonant brass note that underpins the resolution.

Speaking of orchestration, Sibelius orchestrated this piece in a very particular way and the work owes much of its bleak feel to the orchestration. For example, the woodwinds are probably the most colorful of the orchestra sections, the brass and strings sections both having more of a monochrome sound. So what does Sibelius do in this first movement? He gives it a more monochrome sound by making the string and brass section very prominent. The first prominent woodwind part appears almost 5 minutes into the piece! There are long stretches of music where only one or two instruments or sections of instruments are playing at once. At the heart of this movement is the best example of this. The big buildup in the middle of this movement starts by a long stretch of only syncopated violins that feel lost and wandering. They are joined later by low tremolo violas that seems just as lost as them. They bounce off each other for a long while and this causes lots of tension because it’s hard to know where all this is going. It just sounds so bare. It’s a pretty good stretch of music before we get an entrance from another instrument, and thus the buildup begins.

The second movement seems strange and out of place at first. It begins in an almost pastoral mood, with a somewhat brusque but also laid back oboe underpinned by shimmering string tremolos. The perception of this movement soon changes though and it begins to seem like a movement that is all over the place. It shifts its rhythmic pulse radically multiple times throughout the movement, is constantly changing and introducing seemingly unrelated themes. The first movement was very bleak and dark yes, and this movement seems to be quite confusing, perhaps as a “response” to the first movement? The connection between the two movements only becomes clear near the end when the music eventually, under the weight of its own madness, collapses into a similar chaos that permeated the middle of the first movement. With all the various disparate themes that were introduced in this movement being thrown at you amidst the chaos, finally giving them a binding connection. The movement ends extremely abruptly, with no strong resolution.

When the second movement ends, we are not yet halfway through the symphony, that’s because the real heart and gem of this piece, at least in my opinion, is the 3rd movement. This movement is not quite as bleak and cold as the first movement, but very sad. This movement continues to be a study in sparse orchestration. There is hardly a moment where everyone plays at once. In fact, it’s quite a solo-centric piece. Each instrument gets a chance to sing their heartfelt elegy, sometimes all by themselves and sometimes underlined by some of the most beautiful harmonies you will ever hear. Many of the harmonies remind me a bit of Wagner, refracted into the future. These solos are punctuated by more of Sibelius’ long and powerful buildups, complete with ostinato figures holding them together. During the climaxes, it’s typical for the orchestration to be divided into very black and white sections. The strings are all together playing the same thing, as well as the woodwinds and the brass. This particular choice of orchestration gives a lot of power to the climaxes since each part has an entire section backing it up and boosting its richness. There is a throwback to the first movement near the end, a reference to the theme that opened up the symphony and outlined the tritone (the tritone hasn’t gone away in this 3rd movement). 

The last movement is by far the strangest of the 4. It’s a circus-like piece that is constantly trying to establish a joyful mood but is always undercut and thwarted by dissonances, “wrong” notes, strange orchestration and a variety of other agents of frustration. The glockenspiel (or is it a celeste?) plays a prominent part in this movement. Almost like some kind of ironic commentary, telling the movement “Cmon! Be HAPPY” even though it’s clearly not working. The movement is interrupted by very folksy sounding string solos, almost like “Finnish Fiddle” solos. Just like the second movement, this movement eventually breaks down and at a certain point it becomes clear that happiness won’t win out. The themes keep becoming more angular and disparate. We get a small break from the madness with a string section near the middle that consists of the upper strings syncopated against the lower strings. This melody is one of the only continuous melodies in the movement, in that it is allowed to play out without being interrupted. It is however a very fragile sounding melody. This could possibly be interpreted as the despair and bleakness of the first movement coming back. Maybe this is what the main theme of the movement is truly fighting back? Sibelius again starts to build another ostinato driven climax like that of the first movement, with similar figures as well. But even this breaks down and the climax of the buildup is not realized. Instead it seems to become directionless chaos which miraculously reforms into another attempt at happiness but this is soon thwarted again. The movement ends with the fragile syncopated violin melody winning out and it ends, rather unsatisfyingly, on one noted, repeated."


----------



## Art Rock

I love the 4th best of his impressive symphonies. Here's what I wrote last year in my blog: A bleak work, echoing the uncertainties in his life following a cancer operation. In the dramatic first movement, there are more echoes of Mahler than elsewhere in Sibelius' oeuvre. An almost circus-like recurring melody fragment in the short scherzo cannot really lift the general feeling of despair, which gets amplified in the subdued but impressive slow movement. The finale opens brightly enough with melodic fragments, accentuated with bells ringing, but eventually the lethargic feeling returns and the symphony ends with an unresolved feeling. Perhaps his least immediately accessible symphony, but well worth hearing repeatedly.


----------



## norman bates

Considering things like the 4th symphony, Tapiola, songs like Teodora or a sublime and absolutely original piece like Luonnotar (my personal favorite) I wonder why many considered him conservative.


----------



## violadude

Art Rock said:


> I love the 4th best of his impressive symphonies. Here's what I wrote last year in my blog: A bleak work, echoing the uncertainties in his life following a cancer operation. In the dramatic first movement, there are more echoes of Mahler than elsewhere in Sibelius' oeuvre. An almost *circus-like* recurring melody fragment in the short scherzo cannot really lift the general feeling of despair, which gets amplified in the subdued but impressive slow movement. The finale opens brightly enough with melodic fragments, accentuated with bells ringing, but eventually the lethargic feeling returns and the symphony ends with an unresolved feeling. Perhaps his least immediately accessible symphony, but well worth hearing repeatedly.


Haha that's funny that we both decided to use the word "circus-like" to describe one of the sections.


----------



## Mahlerian

norman bates said:


> Considering things like the 4th symphony, Tapiola, songs like Teodora or a sublime and absolutely original piece like Luonnotar (my personal favorite) I wonder why many considered him conservative.


I don't think he was considered conservative until the 1920s or so when Neoclassicism became the _lingua franca_ of composers. The Expressionist and post-Impressionist movements of Modernism were not nearly mainstream enough. For his part, Sibelius admired Schoenberg and Berg but despised Stravinsky.


----------



## norman bates

Mahlerian said:


> I don't think he was considered conservative until the 1920s or so when Neoclassicism became the _lingua franca_ of composers. The Expressionist and post-Impressionist movements of Modernism were not nearly mainstream enough. For his part, Sibelius admired Schoenberg and Berg but despised Stravinsky.


I don't know, I have the impression that the attacks of many critics (Virgil Thompson, Adorno, Nadia Boulanger and others) were so ferocious because he was considered, maybe also for his fame, like the symbol of the conservative music. And still in 1903 he was composing stuff like På verandan vid havet





To my ears and to my knowledge this is one of the most progressive music written at the time.


----------



## Mahlerian

norman bates said:


> I don't know, I have the impression that the attacks of many critics (Virgil Thompson, Adorno, Nadia Boulanger and others) were so ferocious because he was considered, maybe also for his fame, like the symbol of the conservative music. And still in 1903 he was composing stuff like På verandan vid havet
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To my ears and to my knowledge this is one of the most progressive music written at the time.


Yes, but he was known for the Valse triste and Finlandia. That song does sound somewhat radical for the time, perhaps, but not really more so than what Wolf, Debussy, and Schoenberg had been doing several years earlier. It's not a race, at any rate.

Schoenberg - Four Lieder Op. 2 (1899)

It is probably true that, later on, he ended up being championed as a great composer by those who espoused conservative views (wasn't Sibelius actually embarrassed by some of his champions?), and this fueled the debate for scorn to be heaped on him by detractors from both the "Stravinsky" and "Schoenberg" camps (which also included Leibowitz, but not Schoenberg himself). Stravinsky apparently came around to Sibelius, as with so many others, after the latter's death.


----------



## norman bates

Mahlerian said:


> Yes, but he was known for the Valse triste and Finlandia. That song does sound somewhat radical for the time, perhaps, but not really more so than what Wolf, Debussy, and Schoenberg had been doing several years earlier. It's not a race, at any rate.


It wasn't my intention that of making a race. I know that Schoenberg, Debussy, Liszt, Ives and few others were doing similarly radical stuff. I was just pointing out that Sibelius who sometimes or even often is saw just as a conservative composer was actually composing also pieces that were comparable with those of the most progressive composers of the time. 
Anyway I'm curious about Wolf, I've heard some of his songs but maybe I have listened early works and I'd like to ear something more, can you make me some example of his most harmonically advanced music?


----------



## chalkpie

Any fans of the Rattle/Birmingham set? I was diggin' his S7 on YT with some Danish (i think) orchestra.


----------



## hpowders

If you want to hear a really terrific performance of the Sibelius Violin Concerto, listen to this performance by Anne-Sophie Mutter. Wow!


----------



## chalkpie

Just listened to "Nightride and Sunset" on this disc. First off, an amazing and warm recording - holy schnit.

This piece is so oddball yet so beautiful, its just amazing. The beginning is incredibly difficult to keep up with that rhythm and articulation in the strings for so long; almost minimalist in approach yet really tells a narrative with the way he builds this theme and development around it. Then the shift eventually happens and the journey still continues with this passionate section with strings and then the horns shine some rays of light - just pure magic! This guy is so descriptive of nature, but not only in the minute details of nature but also the emotional feeling felt by the surrounding landscape. He is a major genius in that (and many others) regard for me.


----------



## jtbell

Happy 149th birthday! Next year is the sesquicentennial year, which I plan to celebrate by listening to the entire BIS Sibelius Edition. I bought the CD boxes as they came out a few years ago.

I noticed a few days ago that eclassical.com has started to release the Edition as download bundles, one per box (volume). Volume 1 came out last week. They plan to release the other volumes at the rate of one per month through the end of next year. Each volume will sell at a discount price during "its" month.

http://www.eclassical.com/labels/bis/sibelius-edition-vol-1-1.html


----------



## hpowders

Eugene Ormandy/Philadelphia Orchestra Sibelius Symphony No. 7. A knockout performance.


----------



## JACE

Elsewhere on the web, I read a Sibelius Symphony overview by Richard Kaplan called "SIBELIUSAURUS." The write-up was originally published _Fanfare_. (If you'd like to read it, the full text is available here. You'll need to scroll about half-way down the page.)

After conducting a huge review of the available recordings, here are Kaplan's "Desert Island" choices for each symphony *:

First Symphony: Colin Davis, BSO (Philips)
Second Symphony: Ormandy, Philadelphia O (Sony)
Third Symphony: Maazel, Vienna PO (Decca)
Fourth Symphony: Segerstam, Helsinki PO (Ondine)
Fifth Symhony: Bernstein, NYPO (Sony)
Sixth Symphony: Karajan, Berlin PO (DG)
Seventh Symphony: Ormandy, Philadelphia O (RCA)

* Of course, this is only one guy's opinion, no more and no less. But it's always fun to see what other people think -- especially someone who's had an opportunity to methodically listen to so many recordings.


----------



## JACE

hpowders said:


> Eugene Ormandy/Philadelphia Orchestra Sibelius Symphony No. 7. A knockout performance.


See my post above. Looks like you and Kaplan are in agreement on the Seventh.


----------



## hpowders

JACE said:


> See my post above. Looks like you and Kaplan are in agreement on the Seventh. [/QUOTE
> 
> Yesterday I played, Gibson, Ormandy, C Davis and Karajan in the Sibelius Seventh. Some are fast and others are more spacious, but I wound up enjoying every one of them.
> 
> Just checking the emoticons before they take them away from me too!


----------



## Vaneyes

hpowders said:


> JACE said:
> 
> 
> 
> See my post above. Looks like you and Kaplan are in agreement on the Seventh. [/QUOTE
> 
> Yesterday I played, Gibson, Ormandy, C Davis and Karajan in the Sibelius Seventh. Some are fast and others are more spacious, but I wound up enjoying every one of them....
> 
> 
> 
> But have you tried Sir Thomas' Sibelius 7?
Click to expand...


----------



## JACE

Vaneyes said:


> But have you tried Sir Thomas' Sibelius 7?


I haven't heard any Beecham's Sibelius.

Good stuff?


----------



## hpowders

Never heard the Beecham. Just sent away for Vänskä in the 6th, 7th and Tapiola. Looking forward to it!!


----------



## Guest

Like it or hate it, it's essential. You have to listen to Beecham's Sibelius, if only for the sense of history.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

hpowders said:


> Never heard the Beecham. Just sent away for Vänskä in the 6th, 7th and Tapiola. Looking forward to it!!


Have you heard Berglund's Helsinki cycle or Inkinen's NZ cycle? I deem those to be two of the best alongside Vänskä (for both his Lahti and Minnesota recordings)


----------



## JACE

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Have you heard Berglund's Helsinki cycle or Inkinen's NZ cycle? I deem those to be two of the best alongside Vänskä (for both his Lahti and Minnesota recordings)


I have Berglund's Helsinki Fifth and Sixth. His "cool" approach has never grabbed me.

I guess I like more extrovert, heart-on-the-sleeve versions. 

That said, at some point, I am going to buy the Vänskä, Lahti SO set.


----------



## Haydn man

hpowders said:


> View attachment 52237
> 
> 
> If you want to hear a really terrific performance of the Sibelius Violin Concerto, listen to this performance by Anne-Sophie Mutter. Wow!










Have you heard this version, typical Chandos excellent recording and full bodied playing.
I think this is even better


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Deleted post. Computer code botched. The picture below that I can't get rid of isn't even the one I wanted to post.


----------



## KenOC

I usually listen to Segerstam, but he doesn't seem to get mentioned much.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

KenOC said:


> I usually listen to Segerstam, but he doesn't seem to get mentioned much.


Ondine or Chandos?

I like his Ondine Sibelius set-- but the Chandos sounds too slow to me.

That Sibelius Seventh of his on Ondine is just breathtakingly gorgeous. I like it more than the DG Karajan.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

KenOC said:


> I usually listen to Segerstam, but he doesn't seem to get mentioned much.


That's because segerstam is segerstam. But he's a good conductor and I think his Sibelius recordings are great, but I wouldn't rate them as highly as Vänskä or Berglund.


----------



## KenOC

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> That's because segerstam is segerstam. But he's a good conductor and I think his Sibelius recordings are great, but I wouldn't rate them as highly as Vänskä or Berglund.


I'm not going to get into that thing about Segerstam again! But I do like Berglund, and Vanska as well -- except that his recordings are marred by such a huge dynamic range as to be almost unlistenable (to me at least).


----------



## hpowders

I just received this Sibelius CD of the 6th, 7th Symphonies and Tapiola.

Played the Seventh. Hauntingly beautiful performance by the Lahti Symphony under Osmo Vänskä.


----------



## Itullian

hpowders said:


> View attachment 58923
> 
> 
> I just received this Sibelius CD of the 6th, 7th Symphonies and Tapiola.
> 
> Played the Seventh. Hauntingly beautiful performance by the Lahti Symphony under Osmo Vänskä.


That whole set is excellent.


----------



## hpowders

Itullian said:


> That whole set is excellent.


I don't like all the symphonies equally. I favor 3, 6 and 7.

Tapiola was a welcome bonus.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

hpowders said:


> I don't like all the symphonies equally. I favor 3, 6 and 7.
> 
> Tapiola was a welcome bonus.


I recommended another 7th for you to try in another thread (can't remember which) where you mentioned Ormandy's recording. Have you heard it yet?


----------



## hpowders

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I recommended another 7th for you to try in another thread (can't remember which) where you mentioned Ormandy's recording. Have you heard it yet?


No. I will have to go back and check.

I also favor the Sir Colin Davis/Boston Symphony Sibelius Sixth over the Vänskä.

In any case it's hard to beat the BSO and PO winds and brass and the Lahti doesn't come close.

A good Sibelius disc though by Vänskä and I will play it often.


----------



## scratchgolf

Marschallin Blair said:


> Deleted post. Computer code botched. The picture below that I can't get rid of isn't even the one I wanted to post.


1. Go advanced
2. Manage attachments
3. Uncheck box that contains picture

For future reference


----------



## Avey

I was biking earlier today, and without any sort of (immediate) reason, the lone oboe from Sibelius' *Fifth* came to my mind, and I was humming, whistling, murmuring the lines, and I was thinking about those couple of minutes from the movement, and how that oboe is just wandering, alone, amidst _tremolo_, and recalling Sibelius' comments about the symphony, what it meant to him, and considering that the oboe is likely thus (auto)biographical, on page, and as I was thinking about all this, I realized I just randomly, unconsciously queued an obvious Sibelius review, which will dominate my listening habits for like weeks.

The Fifth was the first I heard of Sibelius. The work is my favorite. I wholly believe in its spiritual and mental (and, hell, physical) transcendent tendencies.

So I went home, listened to the work again, followed by score. *And a preeminent observation: How simple that final movement is written.* So, well, _minimalist_, if I may. Incredible speed, contrasted with periods of apprehension and cautious movement -- and all of it, set between strings, winds, and four horns (with some timpani support). Nothing more. Here, in the 20th Century, these instruments move in tandem, simple, parallel movement. Nothing new.

Yet, we get such power and passion. Sibelius simply had something special. Something innate. Just a comment, spurred by a random spark in the head.


----------



## Blancrocher

Avey said:


> So I went home, listened to the work again, followed by score. *And a preeminent observation: How simple that final movement is written.* So, well, _minimalist_, if I may.


Thanks for the writeup, Avey--Sibelius' 5th is one of the great loves of my life. Have you seen D.F. Tovey's analysis of this symphony in his "Essays in Musical Analysis"? He discusses what he memorably calls "Thor's hammer-strokes" in that final movement. There's nothing like its monumental simplicity.


----------



## Avey

Um, did I not just write about his *Fifth Symphony*. Am I dominating this thread? Well, too bad for you. I need to share.

As I am listening, for the third time consecutively, the finale of the *Fifth*, I do ponder....

Have you traversed a hill? Have you hiked a moutain?

Maybe thrown down the gauntlent and run, walked, biked against the wind or rain? Maybe been in combat? Maybe fought internal foes and discrepancies?

Do you appreciate the sky, the water, the thunder and storm, the ground? Do you nonetheless attempt, and persevere against weighted odds, to move and defeat such obstacles? Does nature, in certain instances, seem like a welcome adversary, for your sake?

Do the birds, swans, rats, ants in fact inspire you, rather than disgust you? Something innate and apparent in their physical tendencies require you to reconsider your anthropomorphic center, your instinct? Are you beyond that -- do you transcend such notes and melodies?

Do you like get chilly, dizzy, stunned, dazed, and fundamentally pierced when you hear those swan calls, that _misterioso_ period broken by the cellos? Does the oboe and flute interuption give you the fantods and send you into an existential spiral?

Look, I realize, the strings take over for nearly a minute -- and what should you think? Not innately, but internaly, on a base, necessary level? What do *you* feel? Does this all make you move inside?

I love a lot of other composers; I love many compositions. Such statements, I think, are obvious by my other musings and cants.

But this *Fifth Symphony* sits with a few, very specific others, alone, and in stark contrast to other romantic, dense, superfluous compositions. This composition has strings, winds, some horns. This work is something beyond words and my ramblings. Whatever he felt writing it, I feel that precise passion, that emotion and indescribable pathos when I listen and experience it.

And truly, such feelings are the reason for listening and hearing. These passions are why we live and love. This is emotion that one can wait for. This is sentiment one can contemplate and relate to:

_"Another depth of misery. But I can already make out the mountain that I shall ascend . . . God is opening his doors for a moment, and his orchestra is playing the fifth symphony."_

What else is there to say?


----------



## Avey

And, wow, do I apologize for the length. All in the name of music, though.


----------



## Avey

Found this fantastic (and long) expose on Sibelius' music from a former music critic. http://www.therestisnoise.com/2007/07/sibelius-chapte.html

I can guess many have already seen and read this. But really terrific material here.

_Many times in Sibelius's music, the exaltation of natural sublimity gives way to inchoate fear, which has less to do with the outer landscape than with the inner one: the forest of the mind._

_Sibelius, in his Fourth Symphony, completed in 1911, presented his listeners with music as tensely forbidding as anything from the European continent at the time. (Perhaps the most searching rendition of this symphony on disk is Osmo Vänskä's, with the Lahti Symphony, on the Bis label. Herbert von Karajan's recordings of the last four symphonies, on D.G., remain satisfying, and Leif Segerstam recently conducted a superb complete cycle for Ondine.) Sibelius wrote the Fourth in the wake of several risky operations on his throat, where a tumor was growing. His doctors instructed him to give up drinking, which he agreed to do, although he resumed in 1915. The temporary loss of alcohol-"my most faithful companion," he later called it-may have contributed to the claustrophobic grimness of the music, which, at the same time, bespoke a liberated intellect. The first few bars of the symphony extrapolate a new dimension in musical time. The opening notes, scored darkly for cellos, basses, and bassoons, are C, D, F-sharp, E-an ambiguous whole-tone collection. It feels like the beginning of a major thematic statement, but it gets stuck on F-sharp and E, which oscillate and fade away. Meanwhile, the durations of the notes lengthen by degrees, from quarter notes to dotted quarters and then to half notes. It's as if a foreign body were exerting gravitational force on the music, slowing it down.

The narrative of the Fourth is circular rather than linear; it keeps revisiting the same insoluble conflicts. An effort at establishing F major as the key of the initially sunnier-sounding second movement founders on an immovable obstacle in the form of the note B-natural, after which there is a palpable shrug of defeat. The third movement dramatizes an attempt to build, note by note, a solemn six-bar theme of funerary character; the first attempt falters after three bars, the second after five, the third after four, the fourth after three. The fifth attempt proceeds with vigor but seems to go on too long, sprawling through seven bars without coming to a logical conclusion. Finally, with an audible grinding of the teeth, the full orchestra plays the theme in a richly harmonized guise. Then uncertainty steals back in.

The finale thins out as it goes along, as if random pages of the orchestral parts had blown off the music stands. This is music facing extinction, a premonition of the silence that would envelop the composer two decades later. Erik Tawaststjerna, Sibelius's biographer, reveals that the middle section of the movement is based on sketches that Sibelius made for a vocal setting of Poe's "The Raven," in a German translation. It is easy to see why a man of Sibelius's psychological makeup would have been drawn to its melancholia. The German translation follows the rhythm of the original, so Sibelius's music can be matched up with lines in Poe's poem. Softly crying flute and oboe lines in the epilogue fit the famous words "Quoth the Raven 'Nevermore.' " The symphony closes with blank-faced chords that are given the dynamic marking mezzoforte-half-loud. The instruction is surprising. Most of the great Romantic symphonies end with fortissimo affirmations. Wagner operas and Strauss tone poems often close pianissimo, whether in blissful or tragic mood. Sibelius's Fourth ends not with a bang or a whimper but with a leaden thud.
_


----------



## Guest

Avey said:


> Um, did I not just write about his *Fifth Symphony*. Am I dominating this thread? Well, too bad for you. I need to share.
> 
> As I am listening, for the third time consecutively, the finale of the *Fifth*, I do ponder....
> 
> Have you traversed a hill? Have you hiked a moutain?
> 
> Maybe thrown down the gauntlent and run, walked, biked against the wind or rain? Maybe been in combat? Maybe fought internal foes and discrepancies?
> 
> Do you appreciate the sky, the water, the thunder and storm, the ground? Do you nonetheless attempt, and persevere against weighted odds, to move and defeat such obstacles? Does nature, in certain instances, seem like a welcome adversary, for your sake?
> 
> Do the birds, swans, rats, ants in fact inspire you, rather than disgust you? Something innate and apparent in their physical tendencies require you to reconsider your anthropomorphic center, your instinct? Are you beyond that -- do you transcend such notes and melodies?
> 
> Do you like get chilly, dizzy, stunned, dazed, and fundamentally pierced when you hear those swan calls, that _misterioso_ period broken by the cellos? Does the oboe and flute interuption give you the fantods and send you into an existential spiral?
> 
> Look, I realize, the strings take over for nearly a minute -- and what should you think? Not innately, but internaly, on a base, necessary level? What do *you* feel? Does this all make you move inside?
> 
> I love a lot of other composers; I love many compositions. Such statements, I think, are obvious by my other musings and cants.
> 
> But this *Fifth Symphony* sits with a few, very specific others, alone, and in stark contrast to other romantic, dense, superfluous compositions. This composition has strings, winds, some horns. This work is something beyond words and my ramblings. Whatever he felt writing it, I feel that precise passion, that emotion and indescribable pathos when I listen and experience it.
> 
> And truly, such feelings are the reason for listening and hearing. These passions are why we live and love. This is emotion that one can wait for. This is sentiment one can contemplate and relate to:
> 
> _"Another depth of misery. But I can already make out the mountain that I shall ascend . . . God is opening his doors for a moment, and his orchestra is playing the fifth symphony."_
> 
> What else is there to say?


Apologies for this nOOb question -- but I think the 5th is available in the original 1915 version as well as a revised 1919 version. I have both from Vanska on BIS, but am no expert. The earlier version has four movements instead of three and is a little longer.

Just out of curiosity, which version is the one that triggered your recent bliss? Are you familiar with both? If so, which do you like better? If not, you might be due for another round of pleasurable listening!


----------



## Avey

Thanks, Icarus.

I tend to the 1919 version. I have Maazel/WP, Davis/BSO, Karajan/PO, and Vanska/Lahti. The former and latter, followed by middle two, are my preferred versions. These are all 1919s.

But I had not listened to the 1915 in a long while, which I just did. And that was a pleasure. So, thanks for the queue.


----------



## nightscape

So I'm starting to listen to more Sibelius. I like the music I've heard, especially Pohjola's Daughter and his 2nd and 7th symphonies, but I'm not overly familiar with his symphonies (more his tone poems). 

I decided to go with the first disc of the complete recordings by Vanska/Lahti and I was struck immediately after hearing these two works with how bizarre Sibelius could get. These symphonies seemed very different than the music with which I've heretofore been familiar. Number 4 sounded utterly crazy to me upon initial impressions. It's actually taking me some time to understand it. 

The 1st is really grabbing me though.


----------



## Avey

I just watched the documentary *Jean Sibelius: Early Years/Maturity and Silence*.

I liked it. Some of it was a bit obvious and expected. But I wanted to share one passage.

*Note:* The quotes from his "diary" are apocryphal, I must admit. Why? Because I feel like I have read three or four different versions of what he--or any composer, really--wrote re: a particular work. Hard to know what is real and what is not, right? For real, much of the _diary/commentary to a friend/rumor_ material has to be exaggerated, I think? There is just too much inconsistency in sources/citation.

Anyways, in this documentary, the narrator shares from Sibelius' "diary." I share this because I thought it was the most literary and poignant of the sentiments regarding the *Fifth*...

_"I drank of the cup of the budding spring. Full of air, haze, and mist. I breathe the smoke of the burnt brushwood and the muted fortissimo scent of the Earth. I got a wonderful theme, and sailed through the air on strong winds, like a sixteen year old on the way to his beloved.

Today I have melodies like God. Rejoiced and reveled, trembling as the soul seems.

At ten to 11 this morning, I saw 16 swans. One of the greatest experiences of my life. Oh God what beauty. Their cries are of the woodwind type, like cranes, but without the tremolo. Their lower refrain resembling the cry of a small child-the mysticism of nature, and the agony of life."
_

OK, seriously, if he was writing like that, then he should have been writing novels. Supremely gifted gab. _Today I have melodies like God_--are you kidding me?!


----------



## Avey

...and because I wanted to share with all you Sibelius fans that may not be able to get the DVD, concerning the *Fourth Symphony*:

_"I'm intentionally burning my boats. Holding high the banner of real art. Cling on to the pathos of life.

A wonderful day--have forged a little, but dreamt of even more. The atmosphere this evening was magical but as always when stillness speaks, there are dreadful overtones: the terrifying creatures of eternal silence.

I no longer feel at home in the city; my solitude begins. But the strongest and deepest feelings come to me when I am alone. I am at work at the development of the first movement, trembling. The Fourth will be a psychological symphony. A symphony is not a composition in the ordinary sense of the word. It is more of a inner confession at a given stage at one's life.

I see the whole of my youth and my childhood before me. The former with its dreadful storms and deadly swelling of the sea. Bodies rise to the surface; this is Hell.

The miracle that I am waiting for will never take place. Cross out the whole of the development. I cannot work properly. Why these empty moments? I suffer so much that my heart bursts in my breast. Where do they come from, these tensions of the spirit and the pain?

Fashioned the second part; marvelous day--autumnal, poetic. Life is waiting; this wonderful life that I love so much, and which is yet so difficult to live. *Don't lose the sense of life's pain and pathos. Listen to your own inner voice and go your own modest but sure way. You won't be any the worse for that.* May I just live long enough, for now I am sure of my artistic path.

The Fourth Symphony is breaking through the clouds in sunlight and power. The Himalayas again, everything bright and strong. Work like a giant, the compulsion, the compulsion to write everything that is ultimately and forever right.

Always I'm alone. Alone at home, alone in Helsincki restaurants, alone on the road, and alone on the train. Alone. Wherever I turn it is black. But nevertheless, I would not change with anyone. I work with appalling effort. Life and death struggle with the symphony. I wonder how the third movement will work itself out. Everything is in chaos and I need to concentrate. Lived in the illusions of youth. In the evening a wonderful atmosphere, marsh mists and a gentle breeze. I miss my youth terribly. Oh tempi pasatti.

I have torn up the formal scheme I had for the fourth movement. But I think I am near to the goal. A slender, very slender chance that I will have it ready for the concert. I often don't feel very strong, as if I were over-strained. By what--perhaps the symphony, or perhaps it is just the approach of death._

Also, allegedly, the premiere went horribly, and the audience did not know if the symphony had ended. How great is that!

Anyways, Sibelius-type wisdom. Plus, very revealing, if any of it is close-to-true.


----------



## DiesIraeCX

Recommend me your essential recording(s) of Sibelius' 7th.

GO!


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

DiesIraeCX said:


> Recommend me your essential recording(s) of Sibelius' 7th.
> 
> GO!


Vanska with Lahti SO


----------



## Pat Fairlea

Inkinen and NZ SO for fascinating renderings of 6 & 7. Half decent Finlandia, too.


----------



## Vaneyes

DiesIraeCX said:


> Recommend me your essential recording(s) of Sibelius' 7th. GO!


----------



## Arsakes

DiesIraeCX said:


> Recommend me your essential recording(s) of Sibelius' 7th.
> 
> GO!


The 7th symphony has a great slow 1st movement, which is very hard to ruin even by rookie conductors!
The rest of its movements are too short, they can hardly be considered one movement in total!


----------



## Becca

The New York Philharmonic with Alan Gilbert did the 7th in concert earlier today. In a review, the NY Times music critic, Anthony Tommasini had this to say...
_
Sibelius thought of calling this work a "Fantasia sinfonica." The score abounds in rustic heartiness and the "joy of life" Sibelius spoke of. The radicalism comes from the music's disregard for continuity. Passages evolve in aimless-sounding sequences; twisting lines overlap continually as the piece unfolds almost in a stream of consciousness._

Was he listening to the same 7th that I know?? Yes I know that Sibelius made comments like that when working on a very early sketches about 6 years before he did the 7th, but please ... 'rustic heartiness'???


----------



## Guest

Sounds like a robust soup.


----------



## DeepR

Becca said:


> The New York Philharmonic with Alan Gilbert did the 7th in concert earlier today. In a review, the NY Times music critic, Anthony Tommasini had this to say...
> _
> Sibelius thought of calling this work a "Fantasia sinfonica." The score abounds in rustic heartiness and the "joy of life" Sibelius spoke of. The radicalism comes from the music's disregard for continuity. Passages evolve in aimless-sounding sequences; twisting lines overlap continually as the piece unfolds almost in a stream of consciousness._
> 
> Was he listening to the same 7th that I know?? Yes I know that Sibelius made comments like that when working on a very early sketches about 6 years before he did the 7th, but please ... 'rustic heartiness'???


Disregard for continuity? Sounds like someone who hasn't heard the piece enough.


----------



## Notorious JWB

In reply to the following from ErFurtwanglert: "I gotta say, I love the second and the seventh symphonies, but that fourth symphony always makes me extremely depressed whenever I listen to it...then again, maybe that's the intent?"

I absolutely do believe that was his intent in the Fourth. I'm always most impressed with any work of art that invokes genuine emotion in me, whether pleasant or otherwise, as long as I feel that emotion was what the composer actually intended. Hence, I find it just as exhilarating when Shostakovich makes me want to put a gun to my head as when Beethoven takes me to Heaven in Ode to Joy.

(Sorry - didn't know the proper method to reply directly. Still getting the hang of things in here.)


----------



## ViatorDei

Dear Sibelius,

I must confess your music has a secret enchantment that never ceases to haunt and mystify me. Your symphonies are the express the deep forests of the north, and indeed, they are the very voice of nature. No one has more truly painted the world with sound as you have. Thank you, dear sir. I must also lament that you ceased writing when you did. I know you must have had your reasons, but I cannot help but feel that we all must have been deprived of works you never wrote. _Fiat voluntas Dei_! May you rest in peace!

With all my gratitude and respect,
Viator


----------



## R3PL4Y

Hearing Sibelius 7 always makes me sad that he never wrote the 8th, or even more.


----------



## Pugg

R3PL4Y said:


> Hearing Sibelius 7 always makes me sad that he never wrote the 8th, or even more.


That's life.
Beethoven= 9 / Mahler is 9 so...... he nearly made it


----------



## Xenakiboy

On a personal note, of something that never happens to me.

Dear Sibelius,
The first time I heard your Violin Concerto, I had a tear in my eye. This is something very uncommon for me and I think shows the power of your music. 
It is highly expressive, lush and beautiful.
I can't say you're a composer that I've dipped my toes into much but the music my ears have had the pleasure of hearing have meant something important to me.

Thank you Jean Sibelius


----------



## Mahlerian

Pugg said:


> That's life.
> Beethoven= 9 / Mahler is 9 so...... he nearly made it


Mahler wrote 10 symphonies, 11 if you count Das Lied.


----------



## Barbebleu

Mahlerian said:


> Mahler wrote 10 symphonies, 11 if you count Das Lied.


Surely 9 and change or 10 and change if you count Das Lied.


----------



## Mahlerian

Barbebleu said:


> Surely 9 and change or 10 and change if you count Das Lied.


No, the Tenth in F-sharp major is a complete work in draft form. The structure is entirely Mahler's, and just the way it would have been if he had lived to complete the orchestration.


----------



## Barbebleu

Mahlerian said:


> No, the Tenth in F-sharp major is a complete work in draft form. The structure is entirely Mahler's, and just the way it would have been if he had lived to complete the orchestration.


Mmm. A fine point. You say in draft form so possibly not his last word on the composition. So, in your judgement, who completed the orchestration closest to Mahler's intent and can they then be credited with co-composition? Surely an incomplete work, e.g. unorchestrated, cannot be considered as part of any composer's oeuvre. Mahler would surely have had many ideas on orchestration before reaching a final conclusion.

I would consider the publication of a complete orchestrated version to be the correct way to classify a work as being part of the canon.


----------



## Mahlerian

Barbebleu said:


> Mmm. A fine point. You say in draft form so possibly not his last word on the composition.


If he did not change his working procedure for the past symphonies (since No. 2), *nothing* whatsoever would be changed in terms of form or structure from that point. The Tenth IS a Mahler symphony, period.



Barbebleu said:


> So, in your judgement, who completed the orchestration closest to Mahler's intent and can they then be credited with co-composition?


They're all quite close (with the exception of the Carpenter, which is horrible), and of course they can't be credited with co-composition. The music is entirely Mahler's. It's not at the level of difference of, say, Rimsky-Korsakov's versions of Mussorgsky, which _are_ in a real sense recomposed rather than simply edited or arranged.



Barbebleu said:


> Surely an incomplete work, e.g. unorchestrated, cannot be considered as part of any composer's oeuvre. Mahler would surely have had many ideas on orchestration before reaching a final conclusion.


If the fact that Mahler would have touched it up afterwards is a factor, then we can say that the Ninth and Das Lied von der Erde are also not part of his oeuvre, as he never considered the orchestration work finished until after he heard it played by orchestra and made adjustments. Also, he continually revised the orchestration of _all_ of his works, making changes here and there.



Barbebleu said:


> I would consider the publication of a complete orchestrated version to be the correct way to classify a work as being part of the canon.


The Tenth is more Mahler than Mozart's Requiem is Mozart's.


----------



## Barbebleu

Quite a few eminent conductors refuse(d) to play anything other than the Adagio from the tenth, considering other realisations as not being by Mahler and therefore not his tenth. Can I assume you disagree with that viewpoint?


----------



## Mahlerian

Barbebleu said:


> Quite a few eminent conductors refuse(d) to play anything other than the Adagio from the tenth, considering other realisations as not being by Mahler and therefore not his tenth. Can I assume you disagree with that viewpoint?


I do. The main argument (as far as I'm aware) is not that the realizations are not Mahler's work, though, but rather that the work contains places that are too bare in terms of counterpoint, and the realizations don't go far enough to cover over these barer patches.

The score is available for perusal at IMSLP, and it can be followed from beginning to end. Like I said, the work is a Mahler symphony, and we should treat it as one. Otherwise, we run into the nonsensical views paraded by people like Leonard Bernstein (great Mahler interpreter though he was), saying that Mahler's Ninth was a conscious farewell to the world.

I repeat, the work is complete in a way that many "canonical" works, like Bartok's Viola Concerto, are not.


----------



## Barbebleu

I agree that we shouldn't consider any musicians utterings on things other than music as having any validity, your example being a particularly good example but I am interested in your viewpoint on the matter. I personally consider Cooke's version(s) as being as close to Mahler's concept as I like and have no problem with listening to it. Your argument is compelling but a little part of me has difficulty in accepting it as Mahler's tenth and that, as they say, is my bad! I just recently acquired the Inbal Tenth and I really like it. I believe this is the second or is it third Cooke version. Whatever, it sounds wonderful.

Probably we should have discussed this on a Mahler thread and not hijacked this one. Sibelius is one of my favourite composers too.


----------



## Atrahasis

I m Sibelius fanatic  Adore literally all his work!

I m interested to know your opinion regarding the best performances of his 
symphonies (especialy his second and seventh symphony for now)?


----------



## SchneevoigtFan

Atrahasis said:


> I m Sibelius fanatic  Adore literally all his work!
> 
> I m interested to know your opinion regarding the best performances of his
> symphonies (especialy his second and seventh symphony for now)?


Best Second: Beecham/BBC Symphony Orchestra, 1954, mono only alas, recording mostly clear and listenable. This is the best ever, nothing else like it on record, no other recorded performance comes anywhere near this difficult and enigmatic work: nearly all other recordings completely misrepresent the Finale for one thing. It's not a slow and pompous piece, it's fast and frightening - the later passages show some kinship with Tapiola.

Best Seventh: Ormandy/Philadelphia on Columbia, better even than the legendary Koussevitzky and of course magnificently recorded, as was always the case with that team of engineers.

Best Complete set: Collins/LSO on Decca, but because this is 1950's mono an excellent second best is Berglund/Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra (do NOT listen to his later recordings, he blew a fuse somewhere on the way back home between Bournemouth and Finland). All other complete cycles have major flaws and/or problems at one or more points.

All the above just personal opinions of course, but I can justify them.


----------



## Merl

I love Ormandy's wonderful 2nd and 7th with the Philharmonia on Sony best of all but Berglund, Maazel and Vanska are top drawer too. My first 7th was Karajan's (matched with the 5th) and I still highly rate that recording but Ormandy's Sibelius surpasses all of them for me. Glorious!


----------



## Becca

The 2nd is not at the top of my Sibelian list but I have listened to a number of recordings over the last week or so and my favorite, and one which has received many glowing reviews is the Barbirolli / Royal Philharmonic recording which was originally done for a Reader's Digest compilation and, more recently, available on Chesky.

As to the 7th, Beecham's stereo recording is excellent as is the Vanska/Lahti. I seem to remember reading that Sibelius' papers, which were given to the University of Helsinki about 25 years ago, included at least one alternate ending to the 7th. What is clear is that a number of conductors have made changes to the 7th, e.g. Ormandy in his 1962 recording added a trumpet to the closing violin melody. He and other conductors also added a crescendo and a fermata to the final chord in order to make it seem a bit more conventional (whatever that means!)


----------



## Pat Fairlea

Yes, the old Anthony Collins recordings were fine performances, though the sound quality leaves a bit to be desired. Vanska/Lahti for that troublesome 4th, for sure. Inkinen and NZ Symphony Orchestra are setting a new standard for intelligent, detailed readings of Sibelius. 
The 6th is my particular favourite, the first piece of Sibelius I knowingly heard, and it never becomes over-familiar. I love a symphony that ends with a sigh.


----------



## Scopitone

I guess he's too young to have been "Romantic"? 

There're some orchestral bits in the 3rd movement of the Violin Concerto that have that big, spirit-soaring kind of sound.


----------



## Mahlerian

Scopitone said:


> I guess he's too young to have been "Romantic"?
> 
> There're some orchestral bits in the 3rd movement of the Violin Concerto that have that big, spirit-soaring kind of sound.


As far as I know, Sibelius is usually considered "Late Romantic," but like others of his generation, such as Mahler and Strauss, he was pushing into the 20th century with his post-Wagnerian harmonic idiom.

He is not considered radical to the extent of, say, Debussy or Scriabin, but that's no sin.


----------



## Pat Fairlea

Mahlerian said:


> As far as I know, Sibelius is usually considered "Late Romantic," but like others of his generation, such as Mahler and Strauss, he was pushing into the 20th century with his post-Wagnerian harmonic idiom.
> 
> He is not considered radical to the extent of, say, Debussy or Scriabin, but that's no sin.


That shows how unhelpful categories such as 'Romantic' really are. Some of Sibelius' early, Borodin-influenced, pieces such as 1&2 symphonies are of that idiom, but by 3rd he was moving away to something else, and the 4th defies categories. Put it another way: how 'Romantic' is Tapiola?


----------



## Scopitone

Thanks for the feedback!

Wiki tells me the Violin Concerto would be 1904, placing it after Symphony Nos 2 and a couple of years before No 3. Not that it really matters - it's just fun to have a feel for when things were happening. 

R. Strauss would have been still doing a lot of orchestral pieces at the time, too, I think.


----------



## Mahlerian

Pat Fairlea said:


> That shows how unhelpful categories such as 'Romantic' really are. Some of Sibelius' early, Borodin-influenced, pieces such as 1&2 symphonies are of that idiom, but by 3rd he was moving away to something else, and the 4th defies categories. Put it another way: how 'Romantic' is Tapiola?


Indeed. I would even question how "Romantic" something like Mahler's Sixth Symphony is, seeing how much it prefigures the expressionism of Berg, for example. Such categories are fluid. Going backwards in time, how "Baroque" are the lighter works of a Telemann? They already show characteristics of the nascent Galant movement. And then of course there is the classification of a composer like Monteverdi or Beethoven, who sits on the border and shows elements of both the preceding and the following era's practice.


----------



## Klassic

Atrahasis said:


> I m Sibelius fanatic  Adore literally all his work!


Then you would probably appreciate the symphonies of Richard Wetz.


----------



## DeepR

My first Sibelius was the 7th. I was mystified at first, but it didn't take long before it revealed itself to me. Now it's one of my favorite pieces of music. I love it so much, down to very little details. I've listened to it many times on my way to work. It makes for a very good start of the day.


----------



## cheftimmyr

SchneevoigtFan said:


> Best Second: Beecham/BBC Symphony Orchestra, 1954, mono only alas, recording mostly clear and listenable. This is the best ever, nothing else like it on record, no other recorded performance comes anywhere near this difficult and enigmatic work: nearly all other recordings completely misrepresent the Finale for one thing. It's not a slow and pompous piece, it's fast and frightening - the later passages show some kinship with Tapiola.
> 
> Best Seventh: Ormandy/Philadelphia on Columbia, better even than the legendary Koussevitzky and of course magnificently recorded, as was always the case with that team of engineers.
> 
> Best Complete set: Collins/LSO on Decca, but because this is 1950's mono an excellent second best is Berglund/Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra (do NOT listen to his later recordings, he blew a fuse somewhere on the way back home between Bournemouth and Finland). All other complete cycles have major flaws and/or problems at one or more points.
> 
> All the above just personal opinions of course, but I can justify them.


Will check out some of these recs. I recently purchased the Vanska/Lahti Cycle and was wondering what you would consider major flaws or problems in that cycle? Thx


----------



## Adam Weber

cheftimmyr said:


> Will check out some of these recs. I recently purchased the Vanska/Lahti Cycle and was wondering what you would consider major flaws or problems in that cycle? Thx


Not many flaws, really. It's a great cycle. If I had to nitpick, I'd say the orchestra's a tad thin and some of Vanska's tempo choices are a bit eccentric--but that's part of the charm that makes it a "great" cycle to begin with.


----------



## Adam Weber

For what it's worth, I _like_ all of Vanska's tempo choices, even the crazy fast First Symphony. Some people take issue with it, though, and that's why I mentioned it.


----------



## Vaneyes

cheftimmyr said:


> Will check out some of these recs. I recently purchased the Vanska/Lahti Cycle and was wondering what you would consider major flaws or problems in that cycle? Thx


I don't know how the anti-Helsinki/Berglund Sibelius got started, but don't believe it and compare for yourself.

No major issues with Lahti/Vanska, though his interps sometimes play havoc with dynamics. For instance, Symphony No. 3 is so bad that you swear there are periodic drop-outs. Compare Oslo/Jansons or Helsinki/Berglund. Cheers.:tiphat:


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

Interesting fact from this video: Sibelius didn't speak perfect Finnish.

Also, he comes across as very reserved and doesn't really say anything (almost like listening to a politician talk) but still very interesting to hear his voice.


----------



## hpowders

Perhaps without the cigar, his mumbled Finnish would become the King's Finnish.


----------



## lluissineu

don't trust very much in Kings. Our last king spoke in a twangy way and you know George VI was not a good example (in speaking matters).


----------



## hpowders

lluissineu said:


> don't trust very much in Kings. Our last king spoke in a twangy way and you know George VI was not a good example (in speaking matters).


Where I used to live in Brooklyn, Kings Highway had a lot of fine mens clothing stores.


----------



## DeepR

Thank you for that last movement of the second symphony. Just made my day.


----------



## Vaneyes

hpowders said:


> Where I used to live in Brooklyn, Kings Highway had a lot of fine mens clothing stores.


----------



## hpowders

Vaneyes said:


>


That's what they wear in Trump Tower's prison for elitists (A Marriott Property).


----------



## Xaltotun

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


>


A very interesting video! I actually, for the first time in my life, clicked on a Youtube link. Damn you Sibelius for making me break my sacred vows! But I can tell you guys something, I'm pretty sure there was an error in the translation (which was otherwise very good). When Sibelius says that he has observed that the more his music is played, the more the performers are getting "the tricks" right, I really think he was not saying "temput" (="tricks"), but rather, "tempot" (="tempi"). So I'm pretty convinced that he commented on the performers getting the _tempi_ right. This seems also better because I think I've read him saying a similar thing in other (written) interviews.


----------



## Xaltotun

I could also add that when he says the thing how "every note must live" or "every note must be lived through", my intuition as both a native Finnish speaker and a Sibelius enthusiast is telling me that he meant the latter translation, that every note must be lived through, that the composer must live through every note that he/she is writing down.


----------



## Pat Fairlea

It's interesting that Sibelius conducted the interview in Finnish when he was more fluent in Swedish. Spoke good German, too, I believe.


----------



## Merl

Adam Weber said:


> For what it's worth, I _like_ all of Vanska's tempo choices, even the crazy fast First Symphony. Some people take issue with it, though, and that's why I mentioned it.


I'm not a big Sibelius fan but I do have quite a few cycles and particularly rate Vanska's. It's an interesting set.


----------



## Tero

Lintu now has two discs out. If you like the songs, mainly in Swedish, this just came out. It has two tone poems.
https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/8363151--sibelius-tapiola-en-saga-8-songs

His cycle is very good and for free you get lectures too. But no CD, DVD only. It sold out. Here is the description.
https://www.amazon.com/Jean-Sibelius-Complete-Symphonies-Blu-ray/dp/B0172IVULU


----------



## Larkenfield

I just got through listening again to Vänskä's performance of the 4th. For me it's one of the greatest of symphonies. It has no excesses whatsoever, not one extra note, everything starkly but beautifully measured and stripped down to the bone... and it's the deep silences behind the music that makes the work so profound and outstanding. In other words, it's what Sibelius doesn't say that has just as much meaning as the actual notes themselves, and perhaps this is something that must be understood in order to appreciate what the composer is doing here and not be turned off by it. 

Then in the 4th movement the color and vibrancy begin to return with the tinkling of the chimes. He seems to have taken the listener on a journey into the emotional backcountry, perhaps related to his own deeper emotional states or isolation, and then leads himself out again as a deeper person for having had the experience. But it's the power of the silences and spaces behind the notes that I feel makes this work so special and gives it its majesty. Sibelius was often the master of the understatement and that may be why his music is sometimes taken for granted or under-appreciated. - Lark ♬


----------



## Janspe

Larkenfield said:


> I just got through listening again to Vänskä's performance of the 4th. For me it's one of the greatest of symphonies. It has no excesses whatsoever, not one extra note, everything starkly but beautifully measured and stripped down to the bone... and it's the deep silences behind the music that makes the work so profound and outstanding. In other words, it's what Sibelius doesn't say that has just as much meaning as the actual notes themselves, and perhaps this is something that must be understood in order to appreciate what the composer is doing here and not be turned off by it.
> 
> Then in the 4th movement the color and vibrancy begin to return with the tinkling of the chimes. He seems to have taken the listener on a journey into the emotional backcountry, perhaps related to his own deeper emotional states or isolation, and then leads himself out again as a deeper person for having had the experience. But it's the power of the silences and spaces behind the notes that I feel makes this work so special and gives it its majesty. Sibelius was often the master of the understatement and that may be why his music is sometimes taken for granted or under-appreciated. - Lark ♬


Amen to that! A very evocative description of a truly great symphony.


----------



## Heliogabo

I didn't knew that he was a heavy drinker. Interesting:
https://flypaper.soundfly.com/discover/sibelius-high-functioning-drunkard/


----------



## flamencosketches

Bump.

Anyone been listening to Sibelius lately? I am trying to see what he's all about, especially after some people have commented that they hold him to a very high regard in my "Modernism" thread in the other forum. Currently listening to the 5th symphony, Vänskä and Minnesota Orchestra. This recording is crystal clear and the orchestration is extremely lush and silky. Not sure how much of that comes down to the composer and how much to the conductor, but it's an enjoyable listen in any case! Other than this, I've only heard Karajan on some of the tone poems ("Finlandia", "Swan of Tuonela", "Valse triste") and of those I like the Swan the best. The final movement of this symphony just started and the soft theme in the brass is beautiful. I like what I'm hearing, going to keep listening for sure.

Anyone familiar with his piano works? I understand they are not highly regarded. The Norwegian pianist Leif-Ove Andsnes has somewhat recently released a CD with a lot of them that seems to be seeing some praise. Thinking about going for it, but if someone wants to guide me toward other works of his that may be more worthwhile, that's OK too.


----------



## WildThing

flamencosketches said:


> Bump.
> 
> Anyone been listening to Sibelius lately? I am trying to see what he's all about, especially after some people have commented that they hold him to a very high regard in my "Modernism" thread in the other forum. Currently listening to the 5th symphony, Vänskä and Minnesota Orchestra. This recording is crystal clear and the orchestration is extremely lush and silky. Not sure how much of that comes down to the composer and how much to the conductor, but it's an enjoyable listen in any case! Other than this, I've only heard Karajan on some of the tone poems ("Finlandia", "Swan of Tuonela", "Valse triste") and of those I like the Swan the best. The final movement of this symphony just started and the soft theme in the brass is beautiful. I like what I'm hearing, going to keep listening for sure.
> 
> Anyone familiar with his piano works? I understand they are not highly regarded. The Norwegian pianist Leif-Ove Andsnes has somewhat recently released a CD with a lot of them that seems to be seeing some praise. Thinking about going for it, but if someone wants to guide me toward other works of his that may be more worthwhile, that's OK too.


His orchestral works are generally held in much higher regard than his piano and chamber music. Outside of his symphonies and tone poems, his violin concerto and his early masterpiece Kullervo, a kind of "choral symphony" are logical next steps.


----------



## starthrower

Flamenco, you might want to listen to Paavo Berglund's symphony recordings of Sibelius. And as mentioned, the violin concerto is one of his great works. I have the Hilary Hahn CD which pairs it with Schoenberg, and that might be a deal breaker for some, but not for listeners who enjoy modern music.


----------



## flamencosketches

I'll look into that Hahn. I'm more than willing to expand my library of Schoenberg, being that it's currently very limited, and even if I don't quite understand his music yet, at all (tho I like what I've heard of his students Berg and Webern, especially Berg). I also enjoy a recording I've heard of Ms. Hahn playing the Lark Ascending by Vaughan Williams. I have very few violin concertos in my library anyway. 

@wildthing, I understand many do not appreciate his piano music, but i'm generally more a piano and chamber guy than orchestral, so figured it may be worth checking out. I'll further explore the orchestral works first though.


----------



## WildThing

flamencosketches said:


> I'll look into that Hahn. I'm more than willing to expand my library of Schoenberg, being that it's currently very limited, and even if I don't quite understand his music yet, at all (tho I like what I've heard of his students Berg and Webern, especially Berg). I also enjoy a recording I've heard of Ms. Hahn playing the Lark Ascending by Vaughan Williams. I have very few violin concertos in my library anyway.
> 
> @wildthing, I understand many do not appreciate his piano music, but i'm generally more a piano and chamber guy than orchestral, so figured it may be worth checking out. I'll further explore the orchestral works first though.


Definitely check out his Voces intimae string quartet then, a quite enjoyable work. The Tempera Quartet have a nice recording of it on the BIS label.


----------



## philoctetes

I like the VC with Kuusisto conducted by Segerstam who adds some weight where it's needed. He's good at that with the symphonies too but sometimes jerky with tempos... lately the Kamu on BIS has won me over...

Sibelius is a god of post-romantic Finnish music which makes him the primary icon for modern Finnish composers as well. Two of the best, Lindberg and Saariaho, were just represented at Hertz Hall on Sunday in a fabulous trio concert. Two living composers to check out when one is ready to hear what Sibelius inspired from his followers... I'm especially a fan of Lindberg's increasingly multi-faceted investigations into musical kinesia...


----------



## flamencosketches

Definitely starting to become obsessed with his music pretty quickly... maybe the greatest symphonist of the 20th century, probably sacrilege to any Mahler fan, but Sibelius hits me harder. I still have yet to hear all of the symphonies, though. I think I will check out that Kamu set. I really like Vänskä's later recordings with Minnesota Orchestra, haven't heard his older cycle with Lahti (?).


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

flamencosketches said:


> Definitely starting to become obsessed with his music pretty quickly... maybe the greatest symphonist of the 20th century, probably sacrilege to any Mahler fan, but Sibelius hits me harder. I still have yet to hear all of the symphonies, though. I think I will check out that Kamu set. I really like Vänskä's later recordings with Minnesota Orchestra, haven't heard his older cycle with Lahti (?).


The greatest symphonist of the 20th century for me (and I love Mahler too). His symphonies are on par with Beethoven's, from a personal enjoyment point of view.

Oh and I love the Vanska set with Lahti; haven't heard his Minnesota recordings.


----------



## MusicSybarite

I'm not sure if many people know _The Wood Nymph, Op. 15_. This is early top-drawer Sibelius. I fell in love with it since the first time I listened to it. Tunes, drama and atmosphere masterfully managed. The CD includes the orchestral version and one shorter with a narrator. Deservedly recommended.


----------



## Brazealnut

From the first time I heard Sibelius as a teen, something within me sparked; it was like I had a soul connection to his music. To me, his music—no matter the setting—is deeply infused with the natural. True, he isn't the melodist like, say, Tchaikovsky, but to be able to keep the listener's attention for an entire piece on just some few-note motifs is an art in its own right! I don't know that I have a favorite composer, but if I had to choose or die... I'd choose Sibelius!


----------



## flamencosketches

I would highly recommend this CD to any Sibelian. Ashkenazy really hits home the expansiveness of the music, think wide open spaces. Accordingly, he doesn't screw up the ending, with those huge pauses, like some conductors and orchestras do. My new favorite recording.


----------



## flamencosketches

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004Z4ZN4A/

Can someone tell me why this set is so ridiculously cheap in MP3 form? Is there something wrong with it? I've heard huge acclaim for this set, maestro Vänskä's earlier of two Sibelius cycles. I'm not even a huge Sibelius guy, and I'm perfectly happy with the Berglund/Bournemouth set that I have, but I'm considering going for this just for the price.


----------



## Enthusiast

^ It looks like a huge bargain. I have much that is in it and rate it highly. It was well recorded, too, but I don't know about the quality of this download.


----------



## Becca

"_Sibelius had the programme to himself at the Queen's Hall last evening. His three austere symphonies, the Sixth, the Seventh and the Fourth, were played in that order. ... Sir Thomas [Beecham] wisely rounded off the programme with the Karelia Suite..._" - Walter Legge, December 1937.

I have heard the 6th & 7th played together with little more than a movement break between them ... as much as I love them, that was too much. To then add the 4th afterwards


----------



## flamencosketches

Yeah, I couldn't do it. I like Sibelius, but listening to more than two of his symphonies in a day, I'll start to grow fatigued. Let alone back to back to back. But this all goes to show the immense popularity that Sibelius experienced in the UK (as well as in the States) in those days. He was by far the most popular living composer in those places yet he wasn't working at all. It must have been tragic to see.

I just read the chapter in Alex Ross' book _The Rest is Noise_ on Sibelius, his life, his works, and his silence. Definitely a recommended read to any fan of Sibelius, or anyone looking to understand his music further. I fall into the latter category, but his music continues to grow on me.


----------



## CnC Bartok

MusicSybarite said:


> I'm not sure if many people know _The Wood Nymph, Op. 15_. This is early top-drawer Sibelius. I fell in love with it since the first time I listened to it. Tunes, drama and atmosphere masterfully managed. The CD includes the orchestral version and one shorter with a narrator. Deservedly recommended.
> 
> View attachment 114844


Indeed, deservedly recommended. You try getting that big tune out of your head, not easy to do....

Insanely overlooked, though. Just two recordings as far as I am aware, both by Vanska. Why?????


----------



## Becca

"The Wood Nymph was performed three more times that decade, then, at the composer's request, once more in 1936. Never published, the ballade had been thought to be comparable to insubstantial works and juvenilia which Sibelius had suppressed until the Finnish musicologist Kari Kilpeläinen 'rediscovered' the manuscript in the University of Helsinki archives, "[catching] Finland, and the musical world, by surprise".[2] Osmo Vänskä and the Lahti Symphony Orchestra gave the ballade its modern-day 'premiere' on 9 February 1996"


----------



## CnC Bartok

Becca said:


> "The Wood Nymph was performed three more times that decade, then, at the composer's request, once more in 1936. Never published, the ballade had been thought to be comparable to insubstantial works and juvenilia which Sibelius had suppressed until the Finnish musicologist Kari Kilpeläinen 'rediscovered' the manuscript in the University of Helsinki archives, "[catching] Finland, and the musical world, by surprise".[2] Osmo Vänskä and the Lahti Symphony Orchestra gave the ballade its modern-day 'premiere' on 9 February 1996"


I knew that! Still, Two recordings, both by the same forces and same label, in 23 years is hardly impressive, is it!?!


----------



## Littlephrase

CnC Bartok said:


> I knew that! Still, Two recordings, both by the same forces and same label, in 23 years is hardly impressive, is it!?!


John Storgårds recorded The Wood Nymph with the Helsinki Philharmonic in 2010.


----------



## CnC Bartok

Found a couple more - Bostock and Sato - so my original comment is starting to look a bit daft now....


----------



## 4chamberedklavier

His music can be weird, but in a good way.

I find his symphonies to be the weaker part of his output, actually. I'm enjoying much of his other works more. (the symphonies actually turned me off from him for a while, but of the symphonies, I prefer the first 3 and the 5th)


----------



## Neo Romanza

4chamberedklavier said:


> His music can be weird, but in a good way.
> 
> I find his symphonies to be the weaker part of his output, actually. I'm enjoying much of his other works more. (the symphonies actually turned me off from him for a while, but of the symphonies, I prefer the first 3 and the 5th)


I never found anything he wrote to be "weird". He was certainly an outsider within the musical establishment as a whole since he came from a country that didn't have a classical tradition. In this regard, he's looked at with great admiration by the Finns, but they're certainly not the only ones that are enamored with his music. The symphonies are absolutely exquisite to me and, for me, make up the core of his output along with his tone poems, the _Violin Concerto_ and, believe it or not, his songs, which people tend to neglect or simply don't talk about that much. Also, another part of his oeuvre that doesn't get discussed too much is the incidental music and solo piano works. Most of his chamber works are from his youth, but there is one masterpiece that I think should be in every chamber music lover's collection and it is _Voces intimae_. Such an incredible work. Anyway, keep trying with the symphonies. There's nothing "weak" about this part of his oeuvre. You just haven't found a way in yet.


----------



## starthrower

I've been enjoying the 4th symphony lately. But I've yet to come close to absorbing all of the orchestral music. I probably have over a dozen CDs of material covering the symphonies, tone poems, and the incidental music set on Naxos by Segerstam.


----------



## Neo Romanza

starthrower said:


> I've been enjoying the 4th symphony lately. But I've yet to come close to absorbing all of the orchestral music. I probably have over a dozen CDs of material covering the symphonies, tone poems, and the incidental music set on Naxos by Segerstam.


The 4th is my favorite symphony from Sibelius. It's one of the only works that has made me shed a tear. My reference recording is HvK/Berliners on DG, but there are many other fine ones. As far as my own collection, I'm a Sibelius junkie so I have accumulated a lot over the years.


----------



## Rogerx

Me too and Kullervo , one can not have enough recordings from it.


----------



## Malx

Rogerx said:


> Me too and Kullervo , one can not have enough recordings from it.


I just can't get to grips with Kullervo each time I've listened to it my concentration wanders.


----------



## neoshredder

Not for everyone. But those that get him know how special his music is. His Symphonies are his most accessible works imo. But also very strong with his Tone Poems, Violin Concerto, and his String Quartet.


----------



## HerbertNorman

I like the love here for the 4th , it is one of my favourites too along with the 7th . I've been listening to each of the recordings that I have the last couple of weeks.


----------

