# Fur Elise



## Clouds Weep Snowflakes

This is easily Beethoven's most mysterious piece-not only it was discovered 40 years after his death, that question remains-who is that Elise? He sings letters "to the immortal lover", which we will probably never know who she was, and died without issue...pretty sad right? Was Elise his love, or just a common friend? Maybe even an imaginary figure and not a real person? Do you like the piece? I love it very much, and listening to it makes me think what went through his head at the time...for me, Beethoven was a prodigy that gave his life to music.

Here is a performance of the piece by the most attractive pianist I've seen:


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## SixFootScowl

It is a fine piece but for me was ruined by its use in a Hollywood Movie, can't remember what now. That is one of many reasons that I have no desire to watch A Clockwork Orange. I don't want to chance ruining Beethoven's Ninth.


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes

Fritz Kobus said:


> It is a fine piece but for me was ruined by its use in a Hollywood Movie, can't remember what now. That is one of many reasons that I have no desire to watch A Clockwork Orange. I don't want to chance ruining Beethoven's Ninth.


Hollywood did the same with Italian people...don't let them ruin centuries of tradition for you!


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## premont

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> This is easily Beethoven's most mysterious piece-not only it was discovered 40 years after his death, that question remains-who is that Elise?


Musicologists think, it was Therese (von Brunswick), and that the title was misread because of Beethovens illegible handwriting.


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## joen_cph

.................... deleted, sorry.


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes

premont said:


> Musicologists think, it was Therese (von Brunswick), and that the title was misread because of Beethovens illegible handwriting.


Really? Who was she? Any more details?


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## premont

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> Really? Who was she? Any more details?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teréz_Brunszvik


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes

premont said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teréz_Brunszvik


It's nice to know Beethoven wrote his love letter on July's 7th, my birthday! As sharing a date with Mahler wasn't good enough!
One thing that interests me-Beethoven died without issue; did he ever have a "girlfriend"?


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## MarkW

Beethoven had unrequitable infatuations with many of the young (usually noble) women he gave piano lessons to --Josefina Brunswick von Deym, her maiden sister Therese Brunswick, Therese Malfatti, maybe Giulietta Guicciardi . . . all were unavailable due to social status. His "immortal beloved" (unnamed but addressed as such in an unmailed letter from 1812), was identfied as likely to have been Antonie Brentano, a woman married to a Frankfurt businessman who was also an acquaintance of the composer, who missed her native Vienna and enjoyed Bethoven's company (probably Platonically) when she was settling her father's estate. In his letter, Beethoven resigned himself to remaining single and rededicated himself to his art, while continuing to profess his love.

I am personally partial to stories of love deferred for reasons that seemed legitimate to both parties. Antonie was married, after all, and her husband had done nothing to deserve having his wife stolen away. Similarly, Brahms' and Clara Schumann's decision to separate after Schumann died (so she could take care of her family and, probably, so tongues wouldn't wag). Sad as those situations were, there's a certain nobility about them you have to respect.


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## KenOC

A bit later Beethoven pressed his affections on another girl. She reported to a friend: "How could I marry him? He's ugly and half crazy."


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes

MarkW said:


> Beethoven had unrequitable infatuations with many of the young (usually noble) women he gave piano lessons to --Josefina Brunswick von Deym, her maiden sister Therese Brunswick, Therese Malfatti, maybe Giulietta Guicciardi . . . all were unavailable due to social status. His "immortal beloved" (unnamed but addressed as such in an unmailed letter from 1812), was identfied as likely to have been Antonie Brentano, a woman married to a Frankfurt businessman who was also an acquaintance of the composer, who missed her native Vienna and enjoyed Bethoven's company (probably Platonically) when she was settling her father's estate. In his letter, Beethoven resigned himself to remaining single and rededicated himself to his art, while continuing to profess his love.
> 
> I am personally partial to stories of love deferred for reasons that seemed legitimate to both parties. Antonie was married, after all, and her husband had done nothing to deserve having his wife stolen away. Similarly, Brahms' and Clara Schumann's decision to separate after Schumann died (so she could take care of her family and, probably, so tongues wouldn't wag). Sad as those situations were, there's a certain nobility about them you have to respect.


I also have this problem of liking girls that don't like me back, my first date was at age 17, before I was very unsure of myself...
So did he find a woman that loved him mutually? And what exactly was that letter? This page also says Josephine Brunsvik was his love...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephine_Brunsvik



KenOC said:


> A bit later Beethoven pressed his affections on another girl. She reported to a friend: "How could I marry him? He's ugly and half crazy."


Ugly? Why? I mean, at least he kept his hair and didn't go bald like a lot of older men...


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## MarkW

Josephina Brunswick became Josephina von Deym.

The "Immortal Beloved" letter was found among his papers after his death. It was written in 1812 on his way to a summer vacation in Teplitz (a Bohemian resort to which of German city folk retreated during part of the hot summer months). It mentioned looking forward to seeing her there, but then lamented that for unspecified reasons their union could never be. Reading between various lines in her journal and comments to others, she greatly admired -- maybe loved -- him and he was similarly kind to her. For more details, read the appropriate chapters in Maynard Solomon's ca 1972 book "Beethoven," in which he describes the legwork he went through to provide a pretty convincing identification of Brentano as the theretofore unidentified woman. Beethoven also dedicated a number of significant works both to Antonie and one of her daughters.


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## Haydn70

MarkW said:


> Beethoven had unrequitable infatuations with many of the young (usually noble) women he gave piano lessons to --Josefina Brunswick von Deym, her maiden sister Therese Brunswick, Therese Malfatti, maybe Giulietta Guicciardi . . . all were unavailable due to social status. *His "immortal beloved" (unnamed but addressed as such in an unmailed letter from 1812), was identfied as likely to have been Antonie Brentano,* a woman married to a Frankfurt businessman who was also an acquaintance of the composer, who missed her native Vienna and enjoyed Bethoven's company (probably Platonically) when she was settling her father's estate. In his letter, Beethoven resigned himself to remaining single and rededicated himself to his art, while continuing to profess his love.
> 
> I am personally partial to stories of love deferred for reasons that seemed legitimate to both parties. Antonie was married, after all, and her husband had done nothing to deserve having his wife stolen away. Similarly, Brahms' and Clara Schumann's decision to separate after Schumann died (so she could take care of her family and, probably, so tongues wouldn't wag). Sad as those situations were, there's a certain nobility about them you have to respect.


A considerable number of scholars disagree with Solomon's choice of Brentano. From Wikipedia:

"Solomon's hypothesis was contested by Goldschmidt (1980), Tellenbach (1983, 1987, 1988, 1993/1994, 1998), Beahrs (1972, 1986, 1988, 1993), Dahlhaus (1991), Pichler (1994), Altman (1996), Meredith (2000), Steblin (2007), Walden (2011), Caeyers (2012), and Swaffort (2014)."

Again from Wikipedia: "Significant new discoveries in European archives were made and published by Steblin (2002, 2007, 2009, 2009a) and Skwara/Steblin (2007)." These discoveries support Steblin's choice of Josephine Brunsvik.

The Beethoven biographies I recommend are: George Marek's _Beethoven Biography of a Genius_ and Lewis Lockwood's _Beethoven The Music and The Life_.

Solomon's biography should be ignored due to its Freudian BS and shoddy scholarship.


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## Haydn70

ArsMusica said:


> A considerable number of scholars disagree with Solomon's choice of Brentano. From Wikipedia:
> 
> "Solomon's hypothesis was contested by Goldschmidt (1980), Tellenbach (1983, 1987, 1988, 1993/1994, 1998), Beahrs (1972, 1986, 1988, 1993), Dahlhaus (1991), Pichler (1994), Altman (1996), Meredith (2000), Steblin (2007), Walden (2011), Caeyers (2012), and Swaffort (2014)."
> 
> Again from Wikipedia: "Significant new discoveries in European archives were made and published by Steblin (2002, 2007, 2009, 2009a) and Skwara/Steblin (2007)." These discoveries support Steblin's choice of Josephine Brunsvik.
> 
> The Beethoven biographies I recommend are: George Marek's _Beethoven Biography of a Genius_ and Lewis Lockwood's _Beethoven The Music and The Life_.
> 
> Solomon's biography should be ignored due to its Freudian BS and shoddy scholarship.


I agree 100% with your evaluation of Solomon's bio. And I love your avatar...I am a huge MST3K fan! "We've got movie sign!"


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## MarkW

Surprisingly enough, I agree with the criticisms of Solomon. But I still think the legwork he did on Brentano is both impressive and convincing. The criticisms I've read and the advocacy for von Deym do not, to my satisfaction, negate that and are just academic posturing/disagreement for its own sake.

(I, too, recommend Lockwood as the bio for those who only want one.)


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## Haydn70

MarkW said:


> Surprisingly enough, I agree with the criticisms of Solomon. But I still think the legwork he did on Brentano is both impressive and convincing. The criticisms I've read and the advocacy for von Deym do not, to my satisfaction, negate that and are just academic posturing/disagreement for its own sake.
> 
> (I, too, recommend Lockwood as the bio for those who only want one.)


I should clarify that my criticism of Solomon has nothing to do with his choice for the Immortal Beloved. My interest in that issue is very mild at best. I don't criticize any scholar based on their choice. Solomon is not a trained musicologist. His scholarship is shoddy and I reject entirely his psychoanalytical crapola...as do most Beethoven scholars.


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## SixFootScowl




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## Luchesi

ContrapunctusXIII said:


> I should clarify that my criticism of Solomon has nothing to do with his choice for the Immortal Beloved. My interest in that issue is very mild at best. I don't criticize any scholar based on their choice. Solomon is not a trained musicologist. His scholarship is shoddy and I reject entirely his psychoanalytical crapola...as do most Beethoven scholars.


Perhaps LvB was writing to himself about a compilation of women of high birth around him in his life. His ideal from his creative mind.

We're quite sure it wasn't as depicted in the movie Immortal Beloved.

I like the treatment given to the sister-in-law in the movie. For me, it brings home the feelings of ego and fate and frustration that Ludwig experienced again and again in his life. And then in his late works he seems to rise above the human relationship issues and comes to a serenity. We wouldn't expect it. And the story fits well into this 3rd period change-over. He's still fighting all out, here and there, but he also seems to see the bigger picture of the world and his life and his achievements.

As with Amadeus, it's not meant to be the orthodox view, IMO. It's from Schindler's point of view, IMO, which is not accurate. The director is very kind to Schindler's character in the movie, which is refreshing and seems to work -- because he was actually a light-weight. I guess if Schindler's showing us his conclusions - then it stands to reason that he would also portray himself as upstanding, kind and clever enough to figure out the deep secret.


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## CnC Bartok

Fritz Kobus said:


> It is a fine piece but for me was ruined by its use in a Hollywood Movie, can't remember what now. That is one of many reasons that I have no desire to watch A Clockwork Orange. I don't want to chance ruining Beethoven's Ninth.


Just caught Lang Lang playing it live on the BBC One Show. You'll be delighted to hear it has been ruined once more. Never heard nor seen so many totally unnecessary affectations in so short a length of time.


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## drmdjones

Solomon also engages in a lot of psychological speculation in his biography of Mozart. I don't recommend it.


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## jenspen

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> Do you like the piece? I love it very much, and listening to it makes me think what went through his head at the time...for me, Beethoven was a prodigy that gave his life to music.
> 
> Here is a performance of the piece by the most attractive pianist I've seen:


Now I can't get this lovely piece out of my mind....

I think you'll enjoy Bill Bailey's rendition of it in a major key (at 1:14):


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes

Fur Elise for cello:


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