# Composers that died way too old



## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

:tiphat: SPOOF THREAD!

Actually, I would be curious what people say. Aren't there a few cases in history where a composer just "didn't belong" eventually, or "saw too much"? I think Saint-Saens is a case, also Elgar. Maybe Sibelius. Glazunov too, considering people were surprised when he died, and had thought he had long been dead.

Who else do you nominate for dying_ too_ late?

And on a more humorous spin to the thread, who do you wish _did_ live a shorter life? :tiphat:


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Not sure how 'spoofy' this thread is for geezers. Some of us expect to die too young, whatever the chronology.

Re: "And on a more humorous spin to the thread, who do you wish did live a shorter life?" - only a few 'bad-uns' qualify, none of them composers.

Making a guess at what you _could_ have intended, There was for a time some sentiment that Richard Strauss outlived his muse...


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Glenn Gould said that Mozart died not too early but too late. That didn't make him many friends...


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Rued Langgaard, some people have mentioned his symphony cycle on this forum but I'm not sure exactly how many know of him. Anyway, he wrote 16 symphonies and his is one of the only symphony cycles that I can say with pretty near confidence that I think they got much worse as they progressed.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Schubert, of course. His late works are way too experimental! Same goes for Beethoven, who was written out by 1803. And Bach too. I mean, how many fugues do we really want? 

On a more serious note, Max Bruch lived until 1920 or thereabouts, by which time he was a dinosaur, pretty much like the 19th century academic artists who had the misfortune to live into those times. If memory serves, the same kind of thing happened to Vivaldi: by the end of his life, his music was considered old-fashioned and he fell into poverty; dying a decade or two earlier would have saved him from that. 

Sometimes it's better to quit while you're ahead.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

I feel Stravinsky could have died after writing the Rite of Spring and not much would've been lost.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Couchie said:


> I feel Stravinsky could have died after writing the Rite of Spring and not much would've been lost.


Sadly, I feel like a lot of people hold this unfortunate viewpoint 

On some days, I would definitely trade Rite of Spring for Symphony of Psalms, the Violin Concerto in D or Agon but it does depend on my mood I guess.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

This is a difficult one for me. Yes, a composer may die (we feel) too young, because much promised is lost. But dying too old? So what? Maybe the composer was burned out and didn't have much more to offer. So what? Is a death sentence appropriate? What do we gain?


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> :tiphat: SPOOF THREAD!
> 
> Actually, I would be curious what people say. Aren't there a few cases in history where a composer just "didn't belong" eventually, or "saw too much"? I think Saint-Saens is a case, also Elgar. Maybe Sibelius. Glazunov too, considering people were surprised when he died, and had thought he had long been dead.
> 
> ...


*Haydn *should have died when he got to his 9th symphony. *Mozart* too. I mean we know you only get 9 bites of the cherry and that's it. If it was good enough for Beethoven, Vaughan Williams, Dvorak (and if we kinda fudge the numbers a bit, Schubert, Bruckner, Mahler), well its got to be good enough for these tired old wigs. I mean they used their sewing machine too much! 9 is a numerically stronger number than either 104 (or is it 108 for Papa?) or 41. This is a proven FACT.

*Lenny* should have died after composing _West Side Story_. Everyone knows his output after that is rubbish by comparison. As for his conducting, its self indulgent rubbish as well. The opera version of WSS was also pathetic. They took out the most controversial bits of the lyrics in order not to upset the Reaganites! So it should have been 1918-1957...not 1990.

*Tikhon Khrennikov * died far too old, in his mid nineties. Since this Stalinist toad used Shostakovich and Prokofiev who died younger than him as whipping boys, some of Tikhon's years should be traded to add to their time on this earth. I'm not gonna say by how much, other than his years should have been reduced and given to the two other guys who suffered under his dominance of the Soviet music scene for decades, and some of the the cash Tikhon got for lavish commissions should have been given to them as well.

But if you are prone to taking this all too seriously dear reader, this is all a joke, I love all these guys (except Khrennikov, of course!)...


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

KenOC said:


> This is a difficult one for me. Yes, a composer may die (we feel) too young, because much promised is lost. But dying too old? So what? Maybe the composer was burned out and didn't have much more to offer. So what? Is a death sentence appropriate? What do we gain?


Well, perhaps if Sibelius had died before destroying his 8th symphony...

What am I saying?! I'm sorry, Sibelius--I love you!


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Haydn? 

J/K of course, but if not for the London symphonies, some of his earlier ones might be more familiar. 

Still I'll take the Londons and if we could give him an extra year or two, perhaps another set of string quartets.


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## TrevBus (Jun 6, 2013)

Sid James said:


> *Haydn *should have died when he got to his 9th symphony. *Mozart* too. I mean we know you only get 9 bites of the cherry and that's it. If it was good enough for Beethoven, Vaughan Williams, Dvorak (and if we kinda fudge the numbers a bit, Schubert, Bruckner, Mahler), well its got to be good enough for these tired old wigs. I mean they used their sewing machine too much! 9 is a numerically stronger number than either 104 (or is it 108 for Papa?) or 41. This is a proven FACT.
> 
> *Lenny* should have died after composing _West Side Story_. Everyone knows his output after that is rubbish by comparison. As for his conducting, its self indulgent rubbish as well. The opera version of WSS was also pathetic. They took out the most controversial bits of the lyrics in order not to upset the Reaganites! So it should have been 1918-1957...not 1990.
> 
> ...


You might want to be careful w/the EVERYONE. In this case LENNY, because I don't know that and I fully disagree.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

TrevBus said:


> You might want to be careful w/the EVERYONE. In this case LENNY, because I don't know that and I fully disagree.


A lot of people, I think, don't like Lenny much as a composer (except for maybe West Side Story, by common consensus a masterpiece, I think its fair to say?) but they like him as a conductor. I am kind of the opposite, I am a big fan of his music but not so much his conducting (but I don't mind his conducting, esp. of his own and other USA composers music).

But I was parodying that anti Lenny as a composer thing in my post. It may well be common to many listeners, but I like much more besides WSS.


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## Rapide (Oct 11, 2011)

Sid James said:


> A lot of people, I think, don't like Lenny much as a composer (except for maybe West Side Story, by common consensus a masterpiece, I think its fair to say?) but they like him as a conductor. I am kind of the opposite, I am a big fan of his music but not so much his conducting (but I don't mind his conducting, esp. of his own and other USA composers music).
> 
> But I was parodying that anti Lenny as a composer thing in my post. It may well be common to many listeners, but I like much more besides WSS.


Do you/have you met Leonard Bernstein? Have you attended any of his conducting (whether his own music or other composers')?


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Sid James said:


> *Lenny* should have died after composing _West Side Story_.


Well, he tried. But it turned out cigarettes are simply not quite as poisonous as he thought. They got him in the end though, but much too late to improve music history.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Sid James said:


> A lot of people, I think, don't like Lenny much as a composer (except for maybe West Side Story, by common consensus a masterpiece, I think its fair to say?) but they like him as a conductor. I am kind of the opposite, I am a big fan of his music but not so much his conducting (but I don't mind his conducting, esp. of his own and other USA composers music).
> 
> But I was parodying that anti Lenny as a composer thing in my post. It may well be common to many listeners, but I like much more besides WSS.


Pretty much the opposite with me. I don't care for WSS but like a lot of his other stuff.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Couchie said:


> I feel Stravinsky could have died after writing the Rite of Spring and not much would've been lost.


Except a ton of brilliant music. Now if Wagner just wrote the instrumental parts of his operas and then croaked... :3


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

brianvds said:


> Well, he tried. But it turned out cigarettes are simply not quite as poisonous as he thought. They got him in the end though, but much too late to improve music history.


Well, Lenny had emphysema for many years before he died. Being a COPD-kind of guy myself, I admire him for keeping on going. Go get 'em Lenny!


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

LOL. Spoof and making way for that mean / vicious streak, there are a few I wish had died before they ever penned a note. I think rather than name any, and be accused of being a tasteless sociopath yob incapable of either empathy or emotion, I'll just leave it at that


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## Muddy (Feb 5, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Glenn Gould said that Mozart died not too early but too late. That didn't make him many friends...


I cannot and will never take this circus performer seriously again. This after reading he said Beethoven's reputation is primarily based on gossip! I'm sorry, if you can't play Bach without humming and ruining the music, don't play. Here is a man who was a phenomenal pianist but thought he was much more than this. Isn't that enough?


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

As much as I love R. Strauss and Sibelius, yeah


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Muddy said:


> I cannot and will never take this circus performer seriously again. This after reading he said Beethoven's reputation is primarily based on gossip! I'm sorry, if you can't play Bach without humming and ruining the music, don't play. Here is a man who was a phenomenal pianist but thought he was much more than this. Isn't that enough?


MUDDY, your opinion is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO wrong! But have a nice day anyway.


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## GiulioCesare (Apr 9, 2013)

Couchie said:


> I feel Stravinsky could have died after writing the Rite of Spring and not much would've been lost.


Yes. Sign me in.

PS: What's this annoying 25 characters thing?


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Seriously, I feel the need to dispel all the post-Rite Stravinsky hate in this thread


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## GiulioCesare (Apr 9, 2013)

Muddy said:


> I cannot and will never take this circus performer seriously again. This after reading he said Beethoven's reputation is primarily based on gossip! I'm sorry, if you can't play Bach without humming and ruining the music, don't play. Here is a man who was a phenomenal pianist but thought he was much more than this. Isn't that enough?


Amen my friend, amen!

I don't even agree with the statement that he was a phenomenal pianist. Here's a basic requirement for being a phenomenal pianist: don't freaking hum audibly while you're playing.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

violadude said:


> Pretty much the opposite with me. I don't care for WSS but like a lot of his other stuff.


_West Side Story_ is not an opera anyway. It's a musical.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

violadude said:


> Seriously, I feel the need to dispel all the post-Rite Stravinsky hate in this thread


Another antidote to post-Rite Stravinsky hate:


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

ArtMusic said:


> _West Side Story_ is not an opera anyway. It's a musical.


Oh....I'm confused now. Who said it was an opera?


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Muddy said:


> I'm sorry, if you can't play Bach without humming and ruining the music, don't play. Here is a man who was a phenomenal pianist but thought he was much more than this. Isn't that enough?


Well, whatever his abilities as pianist, he was not remotely as good a singer as he apparently thought. 



violadude said:


> Seriously, I feel the need to dispel all the post-Rite Stravinsky hate in this thread


And I would add things like the symphony in C and the symphony in three movements (I think they are post-Rite, right? The Right of Spring is not the only thing he rote, or managed to get rite! ). I enjoy quite a bit of his work, but the Symphony of Psalms is the one thing I really just don't get, no matter how often I listen to it.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Rapide said:


> Do you/have you met Leonard Bernstein? Have you attended any of his conducting (whether his own music or other composers')?


Why would you need to know him or for that matter attend anything?
His conducting tends towards hysteria and his ballet dancing on the podium was laughable


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I would have said Delius, if only to ease any suffering he felt after blindness and paralysis started to take hold. However, the smattering of output he managed to wring out in his final few years with the aid of Eric Fenby was worth waiting for, I think.


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## Garlic (May 3, 2013)

Stravinsky - not to mention the Octet, Requiem Canticles, Agon, Movements for Piano & Orchestra, Les Noces, Symphony in 3 Movements - I wish they'd play some of these instead of the Rite over and over

For some reason it seems more mean to say this about living composers, and many will disagree, but I don't think we'd lose much if Part, Penderecki and Glass had stopped composing 20 or so years ago


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

People who hate post-Le Sacre du Printemps Stravinsky haven't listened to that music.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

GiulioCesare said:


> Amen my friend, amen!
> 
> I don't even agree with the statement that he was a phenomenal pianist. Here's a basic requirement for being a phenomenal pianist: don't freaking hum audibly while you're playing.


You're plainly unaware of Rudolph Serkin, or a host of others, then. They say it is bliss, not knowing....


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Garlic said:


> For some reason it seems more mean to say this about living composers, and many will disagree, but I don't think we'd lose much if Part, *Penderecki* and Glass had stopped composing 20 or so years ago


I'm glad I'm not the only one that notices that Penderecki does pretty much the same thing in every piece he writes lately.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

KenOC said:


> This is a difficult one for me. Yes, a composer may die (we feel) too young, because much promised is lost. But dying too old? So what? Maybe the composer was burned out and didn't have much more to offer. So what? Is a death sentence appropriate? What do we gain?


I'm not sure the thread relates to death sentences, more would much have been lost if someone had died younger?

One implication could be that a composer maybe took the limelight from some younger composers who deserved more exposure just because they did good stuff much earlier in their life. So maybe later works may have been overrated just by their established reputation.


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## GiulioCesare (Apr 9, 2013)

PetrB said:


> You're plainly unaware of Rudolph Serkin, or a host of others, then. They say it is bliss, not knowing....


They say it is rudeness, assuming things about others without knowing them.

I am well acquainted with Serkin and other "hummers" thank you very much. I just happen to have an opinion that seems not to match yours: that a good performance of a solo piano work must not include any other instruments.


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## GiulioCesare (Apr 9, 2013)

BurningDesire said:


> People who hate post-Le Sacre du Printemps Stravinsky haven't listened to that music.


What's with all these pretentious posts? Have you stopped thinking that, perhaps, we have listened to them and yet consider them to be supbar when compared to his early 20th century stuff?


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

BurningDesire said:


> People who hate post-Le Sacre du Printemps Stravinsky haven't listened to that music.


Yes I have and I don't hate it,but then I don't like it.


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## rarevinyllibrary (Aug 9, 2013)

Myaskovsky?(too many symphonies )


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

BurningDesire said:


> Except a ton of brilliant music. Now if Wagner just wrote the instrumental parts of his operas and then croaked... :3


And just what is wrong with the vocal parts, if that is what you imply?


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

violadude said:


> Sadly, I feel like a lot of people hold this unfortunate viewpoint
> 
> On some days, I would definitely trade Rite of Spring for Symphony of Psalms, the Violin Concerto in D or Agon but it does depend on my mood I guess.


I'd trade the Rite of Spring and Firebird just to keep Threni. And that without a second thought or twinge of regret, save perhaps for the generations of children who will grow up with a dinosaur-less Fantasia.


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

Couchie said:


> I feel Stravinsky could have died after writing the Rite of Spring and not much would've been lost.


Are you trying to rustle my jimmies?

SYMPHONY OF WIND INSTRUMENTS YOU BLAGGARD!


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Mahlerian said:


> I'd trade the Rite of Spring and Firebird just to keep Threni. And that without a second thought or twinge of regret, save perhaps for the generations of children who will grow up with a dinosaur-less Fantasia.


Hahaha XD It's probably for the better. Growing up and learning that your favorite cartoon about dinosaurs was really supposed to be about a virgin sacrifice can be pretty childhood shattering I imagine.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

violadude said:


> Hahaha XD It's probably for the better. Growing up and learning that your favorite cartoon about dinosaurs was really supposed to be about a virgin sacrifice can be pretty childhood shattering I imagine.


The point is that Dinosaurs get kids interested--I don't think virgins probably would,I was most impressed.


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## Alydon (May 16, 2012)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> :tiphat: SPOOF THREAD!
> 
> Actually, I would be curious what people say. Aren't there a few cases in history where a composer just "didn't belong" eventually, or "saw too much"? I think Saint-Saens is a case, also Elgar. Maybe Sibelius. Glazunov too, considering people were surprised when he died, and had thought he had long been dead.
> 
> ...


The problem is if they had all lived a few more years we might have got another symphony or whatever out of them. I think the great 'unquestionable ' is what might we have got - a fully formed Beethoven 10th or another few piano concertos from Mozart - whatever we have been given is already too much as it were, and it seems most composers are burnt out after their initial output.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

GiulioCesare said:


> What's with all these pretentious posts? Have you stopped thinking that, perhaps, we have listened to them and yet consider them to be supbar when compared to his early 20th century stuff?


There's nothing pretentious about it. Stravinsky wrote a ton of great music. He wrote tons of music in general, the Rite is from the early part of a long, prolific career, and a diverse one too. Even if the kind of music you like best is that stuff like the Rite, he wrote other things that live in a similar aesthetic later in his life.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> And just what is wrong with the vocal parts, if that is what you imply?


I just don't get much out of them, whereas with his instrumental music, its amazing stuff. I really think he would have been far better writing tone poems and ballets, where his music could really shine. I mean he was already kinda Berlioz 2.0. Perhaps I just need to hear the right vocal parts from one of his operas. I'm really not meaning insult to Wagner, even if all he wrote were those Preludes and Overtures... he'd be just as important to music in my book. (Though I do think its unfair that he gets all this credit like he was the only guy doing all these impressive things with musical expansion, Germany isn't the only important country in the history of music)


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

BurningDesire said:


> Even if the kind of music you like best is that stuff like the Rite, he wrote other things that live in a similar aesthetic later in his life.


Could you give some examples? For me, Stravinsky's music took a a nose dive in quality (wrt my taste) after the brilliance of the three main early ballets (culminating in the Sacre).

This is what have on CD:
STRAVINSKY
Orchestral: Symphonies (in C, in E flat, Psalms, Three movements, Wind instruments); Clarinet concerto (Ebony); Piano concerto; Violin concerto; Agon; Canon; Capriccio piano and orchestra; Circus polka; Concertino for 12 instruments; Dumbarton oaks; Firebird suite; Fireworks; Greeting prelude; Le sacre du printemps; Movements piano and orchestra; Ode; Pastorale; Petrushka; Pulcinella suite; Ragtime; Scenes de ballet; Scherzo a la Russe; Scherzo fantastique; Suites 1,2; The king of the stars; The soldier's tale; The song of the nightingale; The star spangled banner; Variations IM Huxley
Vocal: Pulcinella

What am I missing?


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## GiulioCesare (Apr 9, 2013)

BurningDesire said:


> There's nothing pretentious about it. Stravinsky wrote a ton of great music. He wrote tons of music in general, the Rite is from the early part of a long, prolific career, and a diverse one too. Even if the kind of music you like best is that stuff like the Rite, he wrote other things that live in a similar aesthetic later in his life.


I disagree. Of course he wrote similar music: he was the same composer. But he wandered off course already in the 1920s, and never really came back to his young form.

For the record, I'm not saying Stravinsky didn't write any good music since the Rite, I'm just saying he peaked at the Rite.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

GiulioCesare said:


> I disagree. Of course he wrote similar music: he was the same composer. But he wandered off course already in the 1920s, and never really came back to his young form.
> 
> For the record, I'm not saying Stravinsky didn't write any good music since the Rite, I'm just saying he peaked at the Rite.


I'll see your disagree and raise you a disagree. Looks like Stravinsky wandered off your course, not his. I like the course he stayed on; it took him through Œdipus Rex along the way.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

GiulioCesare said:


> For the record, I'm not saying Stravinsky didn't write any good music since the Rite, I'm just saying he peaked at the Rite.


Peaked in terms of what? Stravinsky's later works aren't even after the same goals as the Rite was.


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## Rapide (Oct 11, 2011)

moody said:


> Why would you need to know him or for that matter attend anything?
> His conducting tends towards hysteria and his ballet dancing on the podium was laughable


I was trying to be polite ... but I agree, Bernstein's conducting was over rated and compositions mediocre at best; a pale comparison to Boulez for example (who composes and conducts as well).


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Art Rock said:


> Could you give some examples? For me, Stravinsky's music took a a nose dive in quality (wrt my taste) after the brilliance of the three main early ballets (culminating in the Sacre).
> 
> This is what have on CD:
> STRAVINSKY
> ...


You should probably spend more time listening and less time listing.


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## GiulioCesare (Apr 9, 2013)

Hilltroll72 said:


> I'll see your disagree and raise you a disagree. Looks like Stravinsky wandered off your course, not his. I like the course he stayed on; it took him through Œdipus Rex along the way.


I don't think I have to write "In my humble opinion" at the beginning of every post.



violadude said:


> Peaked in terms of what? Stravinsky's later works aren't even after the same goals as the Rite was.


Peaked in terms of sheer musical quality (and originality, and influence).


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## Rapide (Oct 11, 2011)

BurningDesire said:


> You should probably spend more time listening and less time listing.


... or less time apparently here at TC everyday.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

GiulioCesare said:


> Peaked in terms of sheer musical quality (and originality, and influence).


I disagree. Stravinsky's later music is brilliant in terms of sheer musical quality, just from the perspective of a Classical aesthetic rather than a flamboyant, modernized Russian 5 aesthetic. Originality? Is there anyone else that could have written The Rakes Progress, Tale of a Solider, Apollo, Agon or Symphony of Psalms and have it sound the same? If there is, you'll have to let me know. As far as influence, Stravinsky tried out numerous different styles so it sort of goes without saying that his influence reached pretty nearly across the board.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

The concept of originality in music is quite dubious. I love how Stravinsky's early pieces are always considered super original, when much of them utilize themes and melodies he didn't write, and his musical language is the product of the artists who influenced him, particularly Rimsky-Korsakov, Tchaikovsky, Debussy and Ravel, and all of them in turn were influenced by the work of others as well. If something sounds absolutely original to you, then you just haven't heard what influenced it yet. And thats not a fault with music, so it would be nice if people would stop acting like it is. If its good enough for Beethoven, if its good enough for Bach, if its good enough for The Beatles, or any other massively praised artist you care to name, then its good enough for all artists, and unless you live your life in total isolation, and somehow manage to still create something, thats going to describe all artists. Period.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

GiulioCesare said:


> Peaked in terms of sheer musical quality (and originality, and influence).


All untrue. His Neoclassical period and his atonal period were immensely influential on Copland and Shostakovich, among countless less-known composers. In terms of quality and originality, The Firebird is nowhere near Les Noces, for only a single example.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> All untrue. His Neoclassical period and his atonal period were immensely influential on Copland and Shostakovich, among countless less-known composers. In terms of quality and originality, The Firebird is nowhere near Les Noces, for only a single example.


Plus his continued use of tonality and modes in the face of elitist peer pressure is another admirable thing.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

BurningDesire said:


> Plus his continued use of tonality and modes in the face of elitist peer pressure is another admirable thing.


From whom? When Stravinsky was writing Neoclassical music, Neoclassical music was the dominant style (Hindemith, Copland, Shostakovich, Prokofiev). When Stravinsky turned to Serialism, that became a more accepted and prestigious, if not quite dominant, style.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> From whom? When Stravinsky was writing Neoclassical music, Neoclassical music was the dominant style (Hindemith, Copland, Shostakovich, Prokofiev). When Stravinsky turned to Serialism, that became a more accepted and prestigious, if not quite dominant, style.


From the serialists and hard-line modernist camps. I'm not saying this as somebody who is anti-modern, as you probably know already.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Art Rock said:


> Could you give some examples? For me, Stravinsky's music took a a nose dive in quality (wrt my taste) after the brilliance of the three main early ballets (culminating in the Sacre).
> 
> This is what have on CD:
> STRAVINSKY
> ...


Les Noces / The Rake's Progress / Concerto for two solo pianos / Apollo / Orpheus / Oedipus Rex / Canticum Sacrum / Threni, to name a few....

What you are "missing" is that he only wrote Le Sacre du Printemps ONCE, and did not repeat himself in any way, you could also be missing a lot if you are looking for / hoping for the sensationalism of Le Sacre vs. some of the above, which are monumental, and I don't hesitate to say, masterworks


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

GiulioCesare said:


> I don't think I have to write "In my humble opinion" at the beginning of every post.
> [...]


I agree. In fact there is no need for the 'H' in IMHO. There is also no need to bridle at disagreement. Civil disagreement may not be 'the spice of life', but _agreement_ certainly isn't.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

science said:


> ...
> Still I'll take the Londons and if we could give him an extra year or two, perhaps another set of string quartets.


This is a bit of a serious reply, but looks like the thread went that way ages ago!

Papa was pretty much dried up by the end, his last 10 or so years where in poor health. His final string quartet wasn't finished (2 movements only). His trips to London to peform the London symphonies, and composing two massive oratorios (The Creation and The Seasons) took their toll on him as well. He actually said something like "If The Creation didn't finish me off, then The Seasons did."

It all goes to show how gruelling a task composing can be. Especially when you got deadlines to keep up with, and publishers and impresarios haggling over your work, competing for who will perform it first and all that. The business side also kind of was difficult for Papa, and it is for most composers I think.



BurningDesire said:


> ...Even if the kind of music you like best is that stuff like the Rite, *he wrote other things that live in a similar aesthetic later in his life*.


That's right, Igor's innovations in pulse for example went through all of his later works.



violadude said:


> I disagree. Stravinsky's later music is brilliant in terms of sheer musical quality, just from the perspective of a Classical aesthetic rather than a flamboyant, modernized Russian 5 aesthetic. Originality? Is there anyone else that could have written The Rakes Progress, Tale of a Solider, Apollo, Agon or Symphony of Psalms and have it sound the same? If there is, you'll have to let me know. As far as influence, Stravinsky tried out numerous different styles so it sort of goes without saying that his influence reached pretty nearly across the board.


Again, I don't to get too serious here, as its not the intention of Huilu's thread. But I agree that Stravinsky did a lot of great stuff after the early three ballets. I personally am no fan of his serial things, I heard some of them when The Rite had its 100th anniversary this year, they played quite a few of his things on radio then. But it was fascinating hearing of his development as a composer. That unique fingerprint, the rhythmic pulse thing, remained a constant throughout his output.

We don't really need to argue here. Ask virtually any classical listener to name a handful of what they think are the greatest or most influential (or whatever term you want to use) composer of the 20th century, Igor would be one to roll off their tongue quickly, you bet!


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Perhaps to ameliorate everyone right now, I did not intend this to be a "burn Stravinsky" thread. I know, unusual of me.

But lemme bring up some other historically based things that I think will help people understand how a composer truly can be "too old."

For example, why I mention Saint-Saens. He was a brilliant mind in his own day, and highly respected, however, it's sad that he did live to see the Rite of Spring performed (though he wasn't at the premiere). He was from a time and place in history that had no relation to this new world of dissonance and even atonality. He called Stravinsky mad. In some ways, I pity Saint-Saens, and I believe he shouldn't have seen the turn the world was taking.

I've been trying to find a particularly striking quote I heard on the public radio said by Elgar but I cannot find it at this time. It pretty much was him describing why he didn't want to compose anymore as he got older, it was that he felt his time was past and there was nothing left for him to contribute to the world anymore. Maybe someone will help me find that quote.

For once, I will defend Stravinsky and tell you guys to stop bantering about him. He's not the only one. And anyhow, his significance in the world did not decrease with age but in fact grew.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

BurningDesire said:


> From the serialists and hard-line modernist camps. I'm not saying this as somebody who is anti-modern, as you probably know already.


Other than Adorno, who else is included in this (and does anyone take Adorno's criticisms of Stravinsky seriously any more)? There was no huge academic serialist contingent until after Stravinsky had turned in that direction, although there were a few critics of The Rake's Progress who were beginning to say Neoclassicism had run its course.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Can't find your Elgar quote, but here's something:

"Elgar is not manic enough to be Russian, not witty or pointilliste enough to be French, not harmonically simple enough to be Italian and not stodgy enough to be German. We arrive at his Englishry by pure elimination."

--Anthony Burgess in _The Observer_, 1983


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> Other than Adorno, who else is included in this (and does anyone take Adorno's criticisms of Stravinsky seriously any more)? There was no huge academic serialist contingent until after Stravinsky had turned in that direction, although there were a few critics of The Rake's Progress who were beginning to say Neoclassicism had run its course.


Are you serious? How about Boulez and his crowd? How about the more hard modernists state-side like Carter and Babbitt, and Cage and his crowd too (for the most part). In academia, tonality and use of diatonic materials were being maligned as backward-thinking and even selling-out.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

BurningDesire said:


> Are you serious? How about Boulez and his crowd? How about the more hard modernists state-side like Carter and Babbitt, and Cage and his crowd too (for the most part). In academia, tonality and use of diatonic materials were being maligned as backward-thinking and even selling-out.


Carter was still writing Neoclassical music. Boulez did famously go to a performance of Oedipus Rex and booed it with a number of Messiaen's other students, I'll grant that, but it actually increased Stravinsky's animosity towards Messiaen rather than Boulez (that came later). Cage had barely started his career.


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> Boulez did famously go to a performance of Oedipus Rex and booed it with a number of Messiaen's other students,


Lol what an *******!

As for this talk about the idea of composing tonally as a form of 'selling out' - good grief! Music is first and foremost meant to be heard and appreciated from a listeners perspective, if tonality makes it more appealing then why not allow it, if just as a stylistic choice.


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## TrevBus (Jun 6, 2013)

moody said:


> Why would you need to know him or for that matter attend anything?
> His conducting tends towards hysteria and his ballet dancing on the podium was laughable


Very nice subjective POV. I loved his, Uh, "Ballet Dancing". Yes, I laughed, but that was not a bad thing for me. Fun and enjoyable.


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## TrevBus (Jun 6, 2013)

Sid James said:


> A lot of people, I think, don't like Lenny much as a composer (except for maybe West Side Story, by common consensus a masterpiece, I think its fair to say?) but they like him as a conductor. I am kind of the opposite, I am a big fan of his music but not so much his conducting (but I don't mind his conducting, esp. of his own and other USA composers music).
> 
> But I was parodying that anti Lenny as a composer thing in my post. It may well be common to many listeners, but I like much more besides WSS.


OK, "lot of people", will buy. However, still not among that group as well. Good post.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

PetrB said:


> You're plainly unaware of Rudolph Serkin, or a host of others, then. They say it is bliss, not knowing....


I have Brendel's last concert on CD - complete with humming!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

moody said:


> Why would you need to know him or for that matter attend anything?
> His conducting tends towards hysteria and his ballet dancing on the podium was laughable


Of course, people said the same about Beethoven's conducting!


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

rarevinyllibrary said:


> Myaskovsky?(too many symphonies )


Both yes and no - Myaskovsky´s autumnal style after Stalin´s take-over was of course outdated if compared to tendencies in the West (and also parts of the Eastern Block, influenced to some degree by Bartok and Stravinsky etc.), but it did correspond to overall aesthetic currents of the USSR in those days; there are tons of similar symphonies etc. written in the same vein from other, less known composers in that period, such as Rakov, Gomolyaka, Kabalevsky, Golubev, Levina, Levitin etc. etc.

Shostakovich, also hugely influential, was of a younger, more modern generation, though.

_Langgaard_, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rued_Langgaard) mentioned at times here but no so much recently, was probably one of the most outdated yet talented composers ever in his old age, writing almost Schumannesque works in the 40s and 50s - though he would probably stubbornly claim that the rest of the world was wrong ...

_George Lloyd_ (1913-1998; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Lloyd_(composer)) did experience some success, it seems, in spite of his proclaimed conservatism, like _Malcolm Arnold_ and _Jean Francaix_, in whose music conservatism flourishes as well.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

violadude said:


> Seriously, I feel the need to dispel all the post-Rite Stravinsky hate in this thread


I could very comfortably survive without this music.

But imagine life without the Rite, Tristan und Isolde, The Ninth. Unimaginable.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

PetrB said:


> Les Noces / The Rake's Progress / Concerto for two solo pianos / Apollo / Orpheus / Oedipus Rex / Canticum Sacrum / Threni, to name a few....
> 
> What you are "missing" is that he only wrote Le Sacre du Printemps ONCE, and did not repeat himself in any way, you could also be missing a lot if you are looking for / hoping for the sensationalism of Le Sacre vs. some of the above, which are monumental, and I don't hesitate to say, masterworks


Thanks, that is helpful (unlike the uncalled for response by BurningDesire to my question). I am not looking for Le Sacre version 2.0, but BD stated that he had composed many works in that spirit later on (possibly not her exact words).


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## Rapide (Oct 11, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Of course, people said the same about Beethoven's conducting!


Given Beethoven a break - he was deaf as you know. But he was a god of a composer!


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Jobis said:


> Lol what an *******!


No disagreement here. Messiaen, of course, had nothing to do with it, and although he disliked Neoclassicism in general, he had nothing against Stravinsky as a person and wouldn't have done something so rude.



Jobis said:


> As for this talk about the idea of composing tonally as a form of 'selling out' - good grief! Music is first and foremost meant to be heard and appreciated from a listeners perspective, if tonality makes it more appealing then why not allow it, if just as a stylistic choice.


I agree. Composers should be free to compose in any style they choose.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

KenOC said:


> Can't find your Elgar quote, but here's something:
> 
> "Elgar is not manic enough to be Russian, not witty or pointilliste enough to be French, not harmonically simple enough to be Italian and not stodgy enough to be German. We arrive at his Englishry by pure elimination."
> 
> --Anthony Burgess in _The Observer_, 1983


Jeez, people don't even talk about Glazunov like that, at least very rarely. Seems like a lot of people like to have big-mouths about Elgar since he's so famous. I like that word "Englishry" haha! So, in other words, _Englishry _is mostly calm, collected, straight-forward, medium-intensity (not too dark or light).


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Art Rock said:


> Thanks, that is helpful (unlike the uncalled for response by BurningDesire to my question). I am not looking for Le Sacre version 2.0, but BD stated that he had composed many works in that spirit later on (possibly not her exact words).


I'm sorry Art Rock. That was rude of me. And I was mostly meaning that Stravinsky, while working with new procedures and trying new things, always worked with complex and very striking use of rhythms, and similar harmonic and timbral explorations, and how even traditional chords can sound or function in new systems.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

BurningDesire said:


> I'm sorry Art Rock. That was rude of me. And I was mostly meaning that Stravinsky, while working with new procedures and trying new things, always worked with complex and very striking use of rhythms, and similar harmonic and timbral explorations, and how even traditional chords can sound or function in new systems.


You probably didn't cross the red line, _BD_. It really isn't necessary to _leap_ to the defense of dead composers - nothing is going to hurt Stravinsky's feeling now. Other than that 'word of caution', the post I quoted above is right on; IS's music always sounds like he composed it, nobody else. During his neoclassical foray, the emphasis was on the _neo_.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> ...
> But lemme bring up some other historically based things that I think will help people understand how a composer truly can be "too old."
> 
> For example, why I mention Saint-Saens. He was a brilliant mind in his own day, and highly respected, however, it's sad that he did live to see the Rite of Spring performed ...He called Stravinsky mad. In some ways, I pity Saint-Saens, and I believe he shouldn't have seen the turn the world was taking.
> ...


Well in that sense, and with regards to aspects of what joen_cph was saying, some composers who went into doing film music didn't benefit from it in the eyes of those with certain ideologies.

Once* Korngold *got to America and did Hollywood films (I think he even won an Oscar or two) his career as a "serious" composer was ruined. His violin concerto didn't help, neither did his Maherlian symphony, written in the 1950's. In fact, they probably made things worse for him. This upstart, trying to bounce back and write 'serious' music, really! I bet Erich Wolfgang felt like sinking into the ground when he read that "more corn than gold" quip from that highbrow critic. However today, his reputation is pretty well secure, he's back on the map so to speak.

Another is *Malcolm Arnold*, not only because of his background as a jazz trumpeter - his hero was less Beethoven and more like Louis ARmstrong - and also because he did win an Oscar and write one of the most memorable film tunes of the 20th century (Bridge Over the River Kwai) he got treated similarly shoddily by many in the British music establishment. Of course a central tenet of Modernist ideology of the extreme kind is that if you do something like that, and become popular with the 'great unwashed,' then you are a sell out and a no good composer. How sad.

Another one similar was *Walton*, who before 1945 was "the great white hope" of British music, then got supplanted by Britten. I don't know if it has anything to do with his successful wartime film score to Olivier's Henry V, or just to do with his heavily neo-romantic leaning style? In any case, Walton was not against Britten, nor Britten against him as far as I know. It was the groupies and the critics that had a problem, as is usually the case. I know Britten commissioned Walton to do an opera (The Bear) at Aldeburgh.

I think Korngold and Arnold where still fairly prolific in their final years, but Walton virtually gave up. He did do an arrangent for string orchestra of his String Quartet in A minor though. That was in the 1970's and none other than Malcolm Arnold helped him with the task.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Sid James said:


> Well in that sense, and with regards to aspects of what joen_cph was saying, some composers who went into doing film music didn't benefit from it in the eyes of those with certain ideologies.


So in the _Amadeus_ universe, if Salieri could have convinced Mozart to write a film score, all the jealousy and murder plots may well have been unnecessary. 

Funny thing is, had Mozart lived today, he may well have composed lots of film scores...


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