# When and whom question



## 3rdplanetsounds (Nov 23, 2006)

In your own oppinion,when did and by which composers influence herald the recognised change of style in classical music,from Baroque to classical to romantic to modern.I understand the differences in style and sound,but can't put a finger on when and who was responsible in the transition periods in music history.
Am I right in recognising CPE Bach as the composer solely responsible for the Baroque to Classical crossover and Shoenberg and Stravinsky solely for the modern style of music,or am I missing a whole set of lesser known composers.!


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## YsayeOp.27#6 (Dec 7, 2007)

> or am I missing a whole set of lesser known composers.!


This guy... Beethoven... I don't know what he did, but many people agree Romanticism starts with him.


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## opus67 (Jan 30, 2007)

It's all blurred.


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## oompah (Mar 18, 2008)

I might be new here, but are these types of responses really appropriate? Is this typical? Because they're downright mean. Sarcasm is not a useful answer to a legitimate question.

Here's a kid who just wants some input for his own sake. Maybe he really doesn't know, maybe he's trying to do homework, maybe he's just wasting his (and our) time. But what's the harm in giving him the benefit of the doubt and giving him a reasonable answer to a reasonable question?

Threads like this only serve to propagate the perception that classical music fans are elitist, snobbish, impatient, and rude. That's why you see very few young people in symphony halls - if I were fifteen years old, would I really want to spend my evenings with crabby old farts?


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## opus67 (Jan 30, 2007)

How was my reply mean? I can agree that it was terse, but it was neither meant to be mean nor sarcastic.

For example, consider this excerpt from the article on the Classical period from Wikipedia:



> The Classical period in Western music occurred from about 1750 to 1820, *despite considerable overlap at both ends with preceding and following periods, as is true for all musical eras*.


[Emphasis mine.]

You can't point a finger at one person from history, or one moment in time when every musician in Europe decided to drop the old style for the new. That was all what I wanted to say, but I decided to do that in as few words as possible.

P.S.: Please don't assume an age of your choice for the posters here. Neither is 3rdplanetsounds a kid, nor am I a crabby old fart.


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## Rachovsky (Jan 5, 2008)

oompah said:


> I might be new here, but are these types of responses really appropriate? Is this typical? Because they're downright mean. Sarcasm is not a useful answer to a legitimate question.


From what I've saw, only YsayeOp.27#6 and Yagan Kiely are rude in almost every comment. They both malign me regularly. But anyways, Beethoven's Eroica Symphony is seen as the beginning of Romanticism and the end of the Classical Era. Don't ask me why.

(Also, I'm coming to London next Monday from USA. How should I dress? Will it be cold enough to bring warmer clothes or should I even bring a pair of shorts? Thanks, lol)


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## YsayeOp.27#6 (Dec 7, 2007)

oompah said:


> if I were fifteen years old, would I really want to spend my evenings with crabby old farts?


You would certainly act as a teenager if you decided to disregard affection for a particular branch of arts only because the practitioners you know are crabby old farts to you.

Now I will address you to the forum rules on posting, please refrain from calling me and other members here crabby old farts, that's explicit aggression from you. You should communicate with other members of this board in a respectful way.


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## oompah (Mar 18, 2008)

opus67 said:


> How was my reply mean? I can agree that it was terse, but it was neither meant to be mean nor sarcastic.
> 
> For example, consider this excerpt from the article on the Classical period from Wikipedia:
> 
> ...


Well, why didn't you say that to begin with? If you "wanted to say" something, say it. It's the internet, you can use as many words as you like. If you just don't have the time or the energy or the will, just stay out of the thread.


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## oompah (Mar 18, 2008)

YsayeOp.27#6 said:


> You would certainly act as a teenager if you decided to disregard affection for a particular branch of arts only because the practitioners you know are crabby old farts to you.


I don't understand what this means.



YsayeOp.27#6 said:


> Now I will address you to the forum rules on posting, please refrain from calling me and other members here crabby old farts, that's explicit aggression from you. You should communicate with other members of this board in a respectful way.


Whom did I specifically call crabby old farts? I was making an observation about people in the concert hall. It wasn't directed at anyone, so please stop trying to antagonize me.

I recommend you take your own advice. If you've nothing to say, stop typing.

And people who think that others are making specific rude remarks about them probably have a really good reason to think so.


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## Erik Helm (Dec 31, 2007)

Seasonal Affective Disorder?
Spring is just around the corner, so crabby old farts and overly sensitive provocateurs can skip through the grass together!


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## YsayeOp.27#6 (Dec 7, 2007)

oompah said:


> If you just don't have the time or the energy or the will, just stay out of the thread.


You are a mean person, and I haven't really seen any worth musical comment from you. Actually, I haven't seen any musical comment from you, other than hostility to other members, as in your attacks to me and the 15 month old member Opus67.



> I recommend you take your own advice. If you've nothing to say, stop typing.


When did I say that? I asked you to respect the rules and stop the virulence.


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## Krummhorn (Feb 18, 2007)

Hey - if y'all want to gouge each other's eyes out, go get a room, okay? 
This "ad hom" posting will not be allowed to perpetuate any further ... Name calling posts will be deleted without any further warning as they are of no value to the discussion.

All we ask is that EVERYONE follow the posted rules regarding posting in this forum. 

We now return you to our regularly scheduled thread topic


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## Yagan Kiely (Feb 6, 2008)

> Yagan Kiely are rude in almost every comment. They both malign me regularly.


Please point out when I have been ever rude to you. I suggested you should call 'Symphony of a thousand' Symphony 8, but I meant no harm, it was s suggestion, you took it far harsher than I could expect. The only 'rude' comment I've said here was when I accused YsayeOp.27#6 of being an idiot - in my defense I only did so because of similar comments made by him in this thread. I stand by the principal, but apologize in retrospect.



> You would certainly act as a teenager if you decided to disregard affection for a particular branch of arts only because the practitioners you know are crabby old farts to you.


Fictitious example: I have just started to like classical music regardless of my peers, I come on a website to learn more and ask a few naive questions, then I get bashed and insulted because I am trying to learn.

It is hardly acting as a teenager to be put off the music, it is human.



> Now I will address you to the forum rules on posting, please refrain from calling me and other members here crabby old farts, that's explicit aggression from you. You should communicate with other members of this board in a respectful way.


Are you trying to be ironic?

In addition, in no way was he suggesting that members here _were_ 'crabby old farts', merely, his comments implied that elitist comments like YsayeOp.27#6 give Classical Music the aura of having 'crabby old farts' as it's members.



> You are a mean person, and I haven't really seen any worth musical comment from you. Actually, I haven't seen any musical comment from you, other than hostility to other members, as in your attacks to me and the 15 month old member Opus67.


He has actually not attacked anyone in this thread.

In terms of crossover composers into the 20th century, Debussy would be composer that got the gears turning.


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## Nicola (Nov 25, 2007)

To Yagen Kiely and Ysaye Op.26,6 - would you please stop arguing. It's against the rules of the forum, and I find it irritating. Tut, tut, weren't you children taught how to behave in public? Now, go to your respective rooms and don't come out until you say sorry.


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## Yagan Kiely (Feb 6, 2008)

Yagan *. 

I find it irritating when ever Ysaye posts, because he either attacks me, or someone else - for no reason.

As a composer in the classical world, it is my duty to rid it of elitist views, thus allowing an audience in.



> An _*ad hominem*_ argument, also known as _*argumentum ad hominem*_ (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.


None of my comments (apart from the one I apologized for) have been ad hominem arguments.



> children taught how to behave in public?


This is a forum, arguments and views are supposed to be represented. My arguments with Ysaye is musical, regardless of detached it is. Music is part of society as much as society is a part of music, segregation harks back to blacks and whites in the US.



> Now, go to your respective rooms and don't come out until you say sorry.


I have already apologized. I have merely defended myself or newbies.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

Krummhorn said:


> We now return you to our regularly scheduled thread topic


I second the motion for the previous question.

Each "transition phase" is worthy of its own thread topic. I'll try to focus on Classical to Romantic and Romantic to "20th Century" (for lack of a better phrase... Bill Parker chooses to borrow from Bernstein and call it "The Age of Anxiety").

Does anyone else think that Beethoven stepped more quickly through the door of Romanticism in his Piano Sonatas than in his orchestral works? That he was a nexus figure in that transition remains a consensus view...

But- I think we should recognize Schubert's role in that tranformation. Like Beethoven, no significant Central European symphonist of the next half-century was free from Schubert's influence. The transformation from Schubert's Symphony 5 (which fans have said out-Mozarts Mozart) to the sound-worlds of his Symphonies 8 & 9 deserves highlighting.

End stage Romanticism seems a more complicated affair. Most music-appreciation texts will mention the role of Wagner (specifically _Tristan & Isolde_) as part of the sapping that preceded the breach. To this I'd add Bruckner's 9th symphony, which upon audition sounds more "modern" than some early Mahler. Yeah... I'd say that Mahler, Schoenberg and Stravinsky are the "nexus figures" of the early 20th century. I've probably said this before, but "in my mind's ear"... the conclusion of Schoenberg's _Verklärte Nacht_ closes the door on the 19th century... and the trumpet fanfare of Mahler's Symphony 5 opens the door on the 20th.


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## Nicola (Nov 25, 2007)

oompah said:


> I might be new here, but are these types of responses really appropriate? Is this typical? Because they're downright mean. Sarcasm is not a useful answer to a legitimate question.
> 
> Here's a kid who just wants some input for his own sake. Maybe he really doesn't know, maybe he's trying to do homework, maybe he's just wasting his (and our) time. But what's the harm in giving him the benefit of the doubt and giving him a reasonable answer to a reasonable question?
> 
> Threads like this only serve to propagate the perception that classical music fans are elitist, snobbish, impatient, and rude. That's why you see very few young people in symphony halls - if I were fifteen years old, would I really want to spend my evenings with crabby old farts?


I quite agree. We should be a lot more sympathetic to kids who don't know anything and come here asking basic information. Instead of merely saying "welcome aboard" to newcomers, or saying "it's all blurred" in answer to complex questions, we should drop everything and provide a consultancy service for anything they may wish to learn about classical music. After all, places like Google can be very intimidating, can't they? As for sources like Wikipedia on the sources of the Romantic School music, well perish the thought as Wikipedia is way too difficult for many of the types who come on here these days.

So yes, let me agree with you again, that we should be as accommodating as possible to questions of this nature, even though the same question must have been asked and answered at least a dozen times on this forum alone, let alone all the others. We should also ignore the fact that lots of such questions are raised by people who are never seen again. But hey, what's got that to do with it as we don't want to tax the poor young things, do we?

As for Beethoven being the alleged progenitor of the Romantic School, that isn't actually true. It was von Weber, Paganini, Rossini and Schubert who were the leading exponents of the new school, even though some of their earlier output was classical in mould and remained so. Beethoven's musical architecture remained very largely "classical" although one or two pieces had a programmatic theme (eg Pastoral Symphony).


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## YsayeOp.27#6 (Dec 7, 2007)

Nicola said:


> Beethoven's musical architecture remained very largely "classical"


Just like Vaughan-Williams, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky, Raff...


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

(squints, :blinks:, puts on  [corrective lenses], :blinks:, looks again)... hi, "Nicola,"... Welcome back!


Nicola said:


> We should be a lot more sympathetic to kids who don't know anything...


Feh, _that's_ not nice. Nobody who comes here "doesn't know anything."


Nicola said:


> As for sources like Wikipedia on the sources of the Romantic School music, well perish the thought as Wikipedia is way too difficult for many of the types who come on here these days.


Objection, your honor!... calls for a conclusion based on assertions not in evidence. Yes, I could (and have) wiki'd and internet searched "Schubert," but are you willing to consider the possibility that I might find what you have to say about his music _more_ interesting? 


Nicola said:


> As for Beethoven being the alleged progenitor of the Romantic School, that isn't actually true.


Well, that's one point of view. There are dissenters, e.g.:

"The Sixth (symphony) is a harbinger of Romanticism. One of the earliest examples of 'tone painting'..." (Wendy Thompson's _Illustrated Book of Great Composers_.)

"Like C.P.E. Bach, Beethoven was a transitional figure, but between different eras- the Classical and the Romantic. We put him here [i.e.: in the 'Classical Composers' section] because the tendency in recent years has been been to stress his roots with Haydn... his affinities with Mozart... not to mention his worship of Handel. This view, I think, is to the good, but it does not compel us to abandon the view that Beethoven was also the first great Romantic composer." (Bill Parker- _Building a Classical Music Library._)

"Beethoven occupies a pivotal position between the classicism of the eighteenth century and the new Romantic age, which his music did so much to create." (Peter Gammond's _Harmony Illustrated Encyclopedia of Classical Music._)

"The Romantic period in the arts began about 1825... Musically, it started with the late works of Beethoven and the compositions of Weber and Schubert..." (_Classical Music_, Phil Goulding). 

...to cite merely the four most convenient books to hand. Just lets us know that there are things about music that can be well explored independent of internet searches.

I LOVE THIS PLACE!


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## 3rdplanetsounds (Nov 23, 2006)

Thankyou all for showing interest in replying to a simple question,especially Chi-town/philly and Rachovsky..(by the way I live in London and the weathers dam cold at the moment,will still be cold from monday onwards so advise warmer clothing!)I didn't find any replies condersending or sarcastic,don't know what all the fuss was about,some of you should smoke a spliff and chill!
Im asking this 'transition' period in music as it has always interested me and just wanted to see if their were any composers I havn't heard about.When I heard Shoenbergs Chamber Symphony for the first time, it really sounded if music had just changed from what went before it ,into something ongoing in change leading a few years later to his 5 orchestral pieces.
What I probably found from your replies is that no Composer could'nt compose music without influence from who were before them and their piers.No one in history was born with a totally new type of music world within them.


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